# Anyone for some Marquee Maintenance?



## mp20748

I thought of doing this back in December. But decided that the month of January would probably be better, that way we can start 2003 out by giving our prized Marquees a good maintenance work over.


I think we should keep this open to anyone, and feel free to ask any question, or contribute any experience that you may have. There's always something new to learn about this projector.


I think the Marquee is very near its tenth birthday. It's the only commercial grade CRT projector (that I know of) that has maintained it's basic design for that period of time, and in its basic design, it continued to challenge and outperform a many CRT competitor, and did gain great status in the very demanding commercial and industrial arena. But over its ten years of being one of the best, there have been some minor changes made by the manufacturer, likewise there has also been some field experiences that has made it a much better performer as the years went on. So maybe it's time we share what we know, so that all who has one can possible make it better.


And much thanks to Mark Haflich, who has loaned me one of his 9500's so that I could sharpen my tools. It's been fun. I'm now able to successfully repair most of the boards in a Marquee. There's only been two boards that I've not been able to repair, that is the processor board and the HVPS. The processor board rarely fails, so it's been hard to get my hands on a defective one, and the HVPS is on the bench as I type. And it's only a matter of time, and I'll place it among the rest of the repairable modules. If that coil in the potted material does not fail, I'll have that power supply licked. I know exactly what's inside, and I'm prepared to remanufacture a certain component if it's a problem. I'm confident that I'll be able to resurrect these power supplies.


I myself won't get into tweaks, but let's be open for discussion on them. I'm not doing this to promote business for myself, I'm willing to share a lot of what I know (not all), and most of what I'll share you can do yourself, or have a competent technician do it for you.


To start, we'll cover the neck boards. This is a very important module for performance in this projector. It's the weakest link for performance on a Marquee, there has been several changes over the years to this board. And this was the biggest negative on the early 8000's - We'll look at and discuss how to improve the bandwidth and correct that high frequency roll-off problem (soft image/smearing) that plague the early Marquees.


We'll also discuss the blanking problem (blanking out on bright scenes) and the fix.


And I'll try to remember to post the power supply's cleaning procedure, very important for ventilation.


That's enough for now, I'll get back to this later today


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## Donald W Howard

Hi Mike Parker


The short answer is YES. I will check this thread on every forum

visit for your follow ups. Thanks for sharing.


DH


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## gn2

Yes as well, please post all details of Marquee maintainance and improvement, they are an easy pj to pull apart, it would be nice to be able to do something with it when its apart.


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## marvinholland

Thanks, Mike. Sounds like a great idea.


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## Claus_LM

Hi Mike


I'm waiting with a hot soldering iron in my hand










When you say you wont get into tweaks, do that mean you don't do them or are not willing to share them? I remember you once said that you have some component updates, but you where not willing to share them, "for the moment". I was hoping the moment had come










Kind regards, Claus


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## Ted White

Mike,


This is just a great idea, and considering you are not gaining anything monitarily, I applaude your commitment to the projector.


I'm sure everyone will appreciate what you're doing. You're very kind.


Ted


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## PedroV

Mike,


that's very generous of you !

I hope in the near future to be able to profit from your vast experience and knowledge of the Marquee










Thanks


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## Stephan99

Mike I applaud your generosity... this is the type of thing that makes forums like this utterly addictive.


I just bought a Marquee 8500 and I know it could benefit from some good lovin







)


I PM'd you last night with a particular concern but I will keep my eyes on this thread and hope that an FAQ evolves from it with contributions from all the Electrohome Wizards that frequent the forum.


Stephan

Vancouver, B.C.


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## BLS

Me too! I will watch and read with great anticipation. You mentioned some areas where my projector could use help. Soft image and so on.


I am a new member and the search function has let me down every time, so I would love to see all information whether old or new.


Thanks so much!


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## Jay Wilson

Need I really say anything


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## CRT_Bob

Mike, It would be great to have a list of capacitors to replace, with better specs or just similar specs for older marquees, if this makes sense PQ-wise.

Rob


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## mp20748

We're not going to use the boards part numbers for this. So you'll have to visually inspect your boards for the following:


1, look for the numbers on IC 'U2' (near the mini RCA jack). On that IC you should see one of the following numbers: 'CLC409, CLC449, H1100.


2, Check transistors Q12 and Q19, see if they are round metal (TO-5) devices, or small square (SOIC) devices.


3, Check the opposite end of the card for four soldered on 'blue' capacitors.


4, Inspect the solder contacts of resistors R13 and R28, for burn at the point of soldering on the PC boards surface.


5, Inspect coils L8 and L9 for any indication of heat damage.


--------------------


(1) If IC 'U2' is a CLC409 it should be replaced with IC CLC449. Also if there's a H1100, it could also have a softening effect on the image, because it was later replaced with CLC449 (and some H1100's were also on the later boards 8500, 9500's).


(2) If transistors Q12 and Q19 are metal (TO-5) you have an early version card, and this board would more likely have the CLC409 or H1100 chip.


(3) The 'blue' caps are on the early version boards only, as they were a part of the upgrade for the brightness blanking problem that was also on the early version boards. Don't try this fix yourself, this is the protect circuit, and much care should be taking to prevent tube damage if the procedure is not done properly (that I won't provide). Also, much care must be taking when servicing this area of the board. This board SHOULD NOT be used for random modding, it has special interferance tweaks that were necessary for FCC compliance.


(4) If resistors R13 and R28 show burn marks at the solder contacts, replace capacitors C1 and C26. That burn is an indication of high hour use, and C1 and C26 would most likely test leaking. The value is 22mfd @ 100 vdc. You can replace with the same value, but use 105c (high temp) 160 Vdc caps.


(5) Coils L8 and L9 are 100 uh, and would more likely show indication of heat damage if the same is seen on resistors R13 and R28.


For further maintenance of this board, make sure that the solder contacts on resistors R13 and R28 are resoldered. Also use denatured alcohol and a regular tooth brush and saturate the board with the alcohol, and then lightly brush the component side of the board with the brush. This cleaning will remove any oxidation and other crap from the board.


Let the board dry for at least one half hour before using. the alcohol should dry in a few minutes, but it may still be wet in some crevaces.


And make sure to not consume the alcohol







!


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## Jim Kildare

Count me in too!!!!


This is going to be another really great thread.


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## Wendy

i will be following and seeing what i can do


thanks


Wendy


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## Donald W Howard

Hello Mike


I have completed the electrolytic capacitor replacement, Resoldered

the resistors and put a CLC449 chip in place of the CLC409 on all 3

neck boards. I still have 3 CLC449 chips for a future job on the VIM.

Now a friend is wanting to do these mods on his M8500 too. So I

need to order at least 6 more CLC449s. Digikey lists them as obsolete

and not in stock. Allied and others do not even list them. Would you

know where some CLC449s may be obtained? National's site has a

cross reference indicating the LMH6207 should replace the CLC449.

But Digikey and others do not list those either.?? I would be willing

try the LMH6207 in spite of the lower bandwidth spec of 750Mhz. vs

the CLC449 bandwidth of 1.1Ghz. if I could only locate some.

Any info would be appreciated.


Thanks


DH


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## Donald W Howard

Hello All


A correction for my previous post. It is National Semiconductor

op amp part # LMH6702MA instead of LMH6207MA. Pin for Pin

Replacement for the CLC409AJE and CLC449AJE op amps.


DH


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## mp20748

DH,

try this site:

http://www.future-active.com/results...arch=CLC449AJE 


I'm not sure if you'll be able to order small quantities, but give them a try. I've not tried the new LMH chip, they're new, being the replacements for the CLC449 chip. A sub company manufactured the CLC line for National, somehow Nation is no longer connected with them.


There are three or more CLC449 or 409 or H1100's on the VIM module. We'll get to that board later.


I'll place an order for the new chip. National had made the claim (before it was distributed) that it would be a better chip.


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## Tester007

If anyone was willing to buy a few of any IC's at once and had trouble finding them, try 'Smith and Associates'. The are chip locators and have found many parts for me I could not find anywhere else. Many things obsolete here are still widely used in China and Russia.


Thanks Mike for starting this thread as I have always wished the 8000/8500/9500 would get the same mod attention the ECP has enjoyed.


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## Jay Wilson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *DH,
> 
> try this site:
> 
> http://www.future-active.com/results...arch=CLC449AJE
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if you'll be able to order small quantities, but give them a try. I've not tried the new LMH chip, they're new, being the replacements for the CLC449 chip. A sub company manufactured the CLC line for National, somehow Nation is no longer connected with them.
> 
> *




Nope. I went to the link and tried to order and the smallest quantity here is 95 pieces. You also have to call to get pricing. I remember some months back that Mike and I were talking about this, and we found a replacement that had the same bandwidth, but I think slew rate was different. Mike, do you have a memory of this? Is this what was different? It's been about 6-8 months ago and I just can't remember what all we discussed.


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## Claus_LM

Analog Devices is crossing it to:

http://www.analog.com/Analog_Root/pr...AD8009,00.html 


With double slew rate, but not the same bandwidth.


From Texas Instrument perhaps we can use this 1.2GHz, 4200V/us type:
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/produc...tNumber=OPA685 

It looks like the best one for the job.


Unfortunately this 2GHz, 9000V/us is a dual type so not pin for pin compatible!
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/produc...Number=THS3202 


If anyone is interested I have scanned an old service manual for the Marquee 9000 projector.


Kind regards, Claus


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## mp20748

Guys,

the National Semiconductors true replacement would be "LMH6705" but it has not been released yet, so they are recommending the "LMH6702" as the direct replacement. But I'll not buy that...


Jay,

we were looking at the Max (Texas Semiconductors) replacement. I had the number but cannot find it now.


I still have a few CLC449's in my parts bin (not for sale). Give me about a week and I'll verify a properly functioning replacement.


In the mean time if you have the H1100 it should do fine, but should have a slight HF roll-off somewhere in the upper range/band of frequencies.


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## Tester007

Mike I have some of the 449's (not enough to go around), but I want to be sure that what we are talking here (and in the furture with this thread) will also work fine with no problems on an 8000 model?


I ask because the 8100 parts board I am looking at has the metal Q12 (can't find a Q19) signifying an 'early' board, yet it does not have any blue smt caps. Are all the boards you will be discussing compatible?


------------------------------------


Just a suggestion, but perhaps people wait until near the end of this project and compile a partslist. Then one kind person act as 'the gatherer' and order in the parts since many will have minimum amount requirements. Work out a total on them and sell off kits to do all these mods.


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## Jay Wilson

Mike, I think I found what we were looking at...it was the Maxim (formerly Dallas Semiconductor) of the famed ECP Dallas chip.


Here is the spec sheet on a MAX4224 which they say is the replacement for the CLC449.

http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/1718 


Anyone care to comment?


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## mp20748

Tester,

you have a very early board. Q19 should be to the right of Q12 (one inch apart). And yes they'll work fine. I got this info from one of Christie Digitals engineers years ago, and I've been using them in the 8000 boards ever since. if the board you have has the metal (TO-5) transistors, and does not have the blue caps, it's probably of the very first ventage. Does your boards have the two white FCC ground connectors?


I'm not sure of the capatibility of the boards, but do know that the later boards will work in any of the previous Marquees.


Jay,

the MAX4224 is a six or ten pin IC, while the CLC449 is a 8 pin chip.


Edit: the MAX4224 does come in 8 pins: MAX4224ESA-ND. Digikey does not have them in stock. I'll do a search for them and order some for evaluation.


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## Claus_LM

Jay,


The Burr-Brown (TI) part really have MUCH better spec than the Maxim part. You can order 3 pcs. as samples from their homepage. I did that yesterday.

The TI part is better than the CLC449 on some parameters, but not on all.


Kind regards, Claus


PS. The protection double diode on the input is adding both leakage current and capacitance to the video signal. Have you tried to remove it?


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## CH Yeow

My local Farnell has 6 pieces of NSC CLC449AJE. Price is US$15.94 each and if order more than 25 pieces it will drop to US$10.90 each. It will take 5 days to re-order.

Let me know if I can help.


CH Yeow


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## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Claus_LM_
> *Jay,
> 
> 
> The Burr-Brown (TI) part really have MUCH better spec than the Maxim part. You can order 3 pcs. as samples from their homepage. I did that yesterday.
> 
> The TI part is better than the CLC449 on some parameters, but not on all.
> 
> 
> Kind regards, Claus
> 
> 
> PS. The protection double diode on the input is adding both leakage current and capacitance to the video signal. Have you tried to remove it?*



Claus,

I have not tried the OPA685/AD8009 on the neck boards, but I've tried them both on the VIMs. If using on the VIMs the circuit would need redesign, because with the AD8009 I could not get any gain, and with the OPA685 I got too much. But the neck board would not have been my choice to TEST an IC in (tube damage). Though all three chips on paper should have the same gain performance, mainly because the specs are for 150 ohm load, and they are all double gain chips. However, the Marquee video chain is directly coupled after the input coupling cap to the CRT's. Which makes this design a little more complicated than the stand-alone chip in testing.


I've also wondered about the protection diodes, and find it not a good idea for such circuit (video), but never considered playing with that circuit, plus most chip manufacturers put the same diodes in the chip. There are no other form of clamping circuits in the Marquees video chain (agc, limiting, etc), that's what I really like about the design of the video chain, it's very dynamic and direct. The thing that I have also noticed is that on the input section of the VIM, there are two protect diodes on each of the RGB inputs, if you examine that circuit you'll see that great care was used to place those diodes there for protection, while some consideration was giving for maintaining the proper impedance at the BNC. in other words it's not just a basic circuit with protection diodes that makes the proper impedance at the BNC's secondary. so I think that inspite of the protect diodes, some attention has been giving for a truer 75 ohm impedance load at the BNC's on the VIM. Maybe that's something we should look at, maybe there's a better diode that could be used in that circuit without hinderance, because we know that it's doing some hinderance, but on the other hand, if we remove those diodes, what could happen if there was a spike on the input of the VIM or the neck boards - The Marquees have very high power neck boards, there are six Motorola high power RF transistors on each neck board that drives the tube...


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## Claus_LM

Thanks Mike


I was wondering! Have you looked at the overall voltage level in the video chain through the projector? With your MP-1 (I'm still dreaming about it) you could amplify the video signal at the very start at the video chain, and then we could get a better S/N level through the projector and then lower the gain at the very end in the projector (eg. at the neck board).

Or perhaps Electrohome made a heavy gain at the VIM just to follow the standard input video specs. Maybe it was better to transmit a much higher voltage range and then lower the gain at the VIM. This should prevent the noise being amplified.


I have no idea on how close the video signal is running to the rails, but perhaps they are way off.


Have you tested WHY your MP-1 makes such a difference with a higher voltage swing? Is it because it is bringing the overall video voltage swing closer to max (without raising the noise floor) or what.

Have you tried adjusting the gain up at the MP-1 and then down again at the VIM?



What I'm really going to look at, is lowering the noise floor. With the internal test pictures (all white), low contrast and looking into the tubes, they are so full of picture noise.


I think this is going to be a very exciting thread










Kind regards, Claus


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## mp20748

Claus,

you raise some very interesting points, I'm glad that you're on board.


I like your idea of lowering the noise in the video chain. I plan to rig up a Marquee just for this, and maybe we can get some of the other masters in the electronic field to join in. There are some very smart people on this forum, but most of them are so humble that they rarely contribute much in these discussions. But I've had the pleasure of speaking with some of them by email and/or on the phone. they're here on AVS, and I would like for them to join us in this. How bout it guys! - Tom Rosbach, jcmccorm to name a few... I'm not an engineer, just a two bit technician, and guy's like this have been very helpful to me in their observations.


Actually the MP-1 works well on a very low output signal. With the jumpers removed, it's in the unity gain state (0.7v in/ 0.7V out). Adding the jumpers puts it in the boost state, and that boost is only 0.7V in to a 0.76 volt out. So there's very little boost, and most people could not notice a difference with the jumpers in or removed. It's doing something special with the signal, maybe I should redesign the whole video chain with the MP-1 design - Hmm! I once had the Mp-1 running at a higher output, it made a Marquee look like a large TV monitor, it was very bright and clear, and that was before clipping. But I thought it would be a little too much on the tubes.


Since I've not tested the Max chip, I've placed some on order (thanks Jay). And for some reason I believe that the Max4224 will probably be the best cross. And maybe National Semiconductor will get that exact cross to production.


I didn't want to get into tweaks, but again, if it comes up let's deal with them with very open minds. let's just avoid the ridiculous...










And Claus, if it's just you, myself and a few others - Let's do this...


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## Claus_LM

Thanks Mike, I though you where ignoring me










I remember reading about the Marquee wanting 0.9V to perform best. It was either you or Tim. It should produce a more "bright" image, but the whole idea is to lower the control to give the same picture as before, I was just hoping the "amplified" noise would go down with it.


Of course I hope KBK, Tim or Chris would give away some goodies, but I doubt it.

One think I would like a comment on is regarding capacitors and their rated voltage. I once had a very clever college and he told me (said not many people new!) that capacitors only have their rated value very near their rated voltage.

To give an example. Bang & Olufsen is using 10V capacitors on supplies instead of 6.3V. He told me that this is nuts, because a 100uF/6.3V capacitor is near 100uF, but a 100uF/10uF is nowhere near 100uF at 5V! In all the capacitor mod thread I read, I see people changing to much higher voltage and temperature. The temperature is making sense, but perhaps the voltage is not! Of course there need to be "room" for ripple, but that is hopefully a very small amount. Actually that is what we are trying to avoid, but in the power-supply itself it can be big, but not in the decoupling of the power-supply around the board. I just don't know!


I don't even know what parts are on my 9500LC. It is still in its flight case with its melted C-element. I think I can be see the different mods looking directly into the lenses! Then all setup issues is removed from the puzzle.


Kind regards, Claus


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## Tester007

Tim stated to me the Marquee likes 1v input to look the best. I was going to buy a signal amplifier from Extron but that would necessitate either buying a few hundred dollars in new cables or adding on adapters front and back which would probably degrade the signal. If there was some internal mod to boost this then I would like to see it! I got in some tubes from an 8000, but only one made intact it and was burned (slightly) contrary to the sellers inspection.

So Mike if it would help having a tube to experiment on for this thread that you can fry or make a discovery to help us all, I will ship it to you since I will not be using it. Don't know if a single tube would help you or not.


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## Tester007

you have a very early board. Q19 should be to the right of Q12 (one inch apart). And yes they'll work fine. I got this info from one of Christie Digitals engineers years ago, and I've been using them in the 8000 boards ever since. if the board you have has the metal (TO-5) transistors, and does not have the blue caps, it's probably of the very first ventage. Does your boards have the two white FCC ground connectors?

-----------------

It has a white ground connector by the heatsink and then 2 white wires, one with a tube connector (right near the center of the board) and the other with a standard spade type connector right by the wire harness. But this is just one of my spare boards, not my actual one in the machine.. Have not gotten around to pulling them out yet so I have no idea of their vintage. It was just odd because this board does have on the cl449a IC.


p.s. found Q19. It is 8 pin smt. Was looking for the same wire-and-tube assembly like the other one.


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## mp20748

Guiy's

maybe Tim will join us in this discussion, and I do agree with him that the Marquee prefers a higher voltage than 700mv on the BNC's. And maybe KBK and Chris will also chime in on the mods and tweaks. I only hope we stay away from discussion on power cords and bat wings and such










I have several tweaks and mods myself, but for the most part I would only want to discuss upgrades and certain fixes.


The goal with a properly tuned Marquee is to find the right signal level on the BNC's, that way you'll be able to keep the contrast at closer to mid point. because when you increase the contrast, you also bring up the noise floor. By increasing the contrast you bring up the noise that's in the projector. Claus mentioned this:


"you could amplify the video signal at the very start at the video chain, and then we could get a better S/N level through the projector and then lower the gain at the very end in the projector (eg. at the neck board)."


Ok, enough on that, now let's get back to the neck boards. here's a little test to check the boards for those who can't remove and inspect them.


Turn on the projector and let warm up for 30 minutes or so. After warm up, follow this procedure: Press the '#' key once and then...


Press 'UTIL' on the remote, press 1, and then press 6.


Select number '3' (47.71/60) and then scroll thru all three colors by pressing 'Color' and then 1 (red), 2 (green), 3 (blue). you should be seeing all three color grids being displayed on the screen, now move very close to the screen. If the projector has a reasonable setup, all three color grids should be tight in the middle of the screen with no flare or smear to the right of the grid.


Now, go back '#' (Util, 1, 6) and select 5 (89.30 / 70) that should put you in the high band, scroll thru (color - 1,2,3) all three color grids should display, now see if the grids smear to the right (in the center only).


Do the same as above, but select '6' (126.84 / 60) as the final test.


post back your results...


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## Tester007

I don't have the exact same frequencies, but have no smearing side to side. The green does have some smearing downward in the central area.


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## Claus_LM

Mike,


You PM inbox is full. Could you please make room for a mail?


Best regards, Claus


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## mp20748

Tester,

the smearing is more noticeable in the upper frequencies (high band, above 60 Khz). Did you use an internal frequency above 60 Khz?


If so, and no smear, your projector would more likely have either the CLC449 or H1100's. the CLC409's were no longer used in the Marquee neck boards after 1995 (my guess).


If your projector is pretty well aligned, you could also try running AVIA at 720x480P (native rate of the DVD) and look at the 'sharpness' pattern and the 'multiburst' patterns for detail. Compare the detail of these patterns using a second resolution of 1440x960P.


Any well aligned Marquee should be able to handle both of these resolutions quite well. The 1440x960 using the above test patterns in AVIA should let you know if there's a problem in the video chain. And this test would also include the cables.


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## mp20748

Claus,

it's now clear!


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## Jay Wilson

Hi Mike. No smearing at all from my pj. Blue is a teeny bit underfocused compared to the other 2 at the highest frequency...at least this is where it was most apparent, but no streaking. Mine is a M8110, built Nov 1996 so based on your above comments, I probably have the later chips. I assume it is recommended to go ahead and replace with the CLC449 (or eq) anyway?


I did spend an extraordinary amount of time on stig and flare...like about 7 hours by the time I was happy with the results. Is it possible to get a clean grid with the lesser components _if_ you spend enough time?


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## mp20748

Jay,

I think you're in good shape on the neck boards. I have in the 9500 here two good neck boards, and the third has a very slight smear to the right. I can see it on the scope but it's hard to see in the image. I like using the test patterns in the high band because that's where the chips really slow up (bandwidth) switching from black to white on the resolution patterns.


When running the resolution pattern (multiburst) in AVIA, the pattern should be equal in brightness over whole pattern with a good card. If the card is uncapable of handling the resolution, you'll see a brighter area on the right of the screen, and less (or no) black lines. A properly functioning card should show that pattern with the white lines and the black lines in place, with equal brightness.


And yes you can get a pretty clean grid with lower quality components, but the important thing to look for is true black lines on the far right of that pattern. Black lines on the left is not a problem (low frequency), on the right is the high frequency, and it shows the speed of the system.


The CLC449 is only necessary if operating in the high band somewhere around 70Khz (1440X960/72) and up. But if yiu have the H1100 they should be fine below that range.


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## Jay Wilson

Thanks Mike. 1440x960 is about the minimum I have been runniong lately. I was using 1280x720, but when I spent so much time redoing stig & flare, I found I could go higher. I set the unit up with a 1920x1080 signal. I'll spend some time with the AVIA test patterns this weekend when I bring the disc home from the office. Then I'll let you know the outcome of that.


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## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jay Wilson_
> *.... I set the unit up with a 1920x1080 signal. I'll spend some time with the AVIA test patterns this weekend when I bring the disc home from the office. Then I'll let you know the outcome of that.*



Jay,

that's a very powerful nugget on Marquee setup (this is secret stuff). Set it up above the resolution of use, copy down to your desired resolution - touch-up. The Marquees will have much better color tracking when setup in the high band, plus you'll tame the dots better. Kudos!


And if you really want it to sing, start your initial setup at 31 Khz, and then go above your user res...


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## Jay Wilson

Hmmmmmm.


Looks like a reset will be in order this weekend. i'd nver heard (or don't remebering) of starting low, then going high. I always start high and go low.


Well, I guess you earned your keep for another week










Don't suppose this MP1 has anything to do with the aesoeme picture I get huh?


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## Donald W Howard

Hello Mike


All 3 neck boards had severe streaking. From light areas into dark

and dark into light. On both low and high bands. After replacing the

CLC409s with CLC449s and the two electrolytic caps all streaking

was gone. I reflowed the solder on the big resistors even though I

had very little discoloration from heat. The video image was also

cleaned up a little, less noise in the picture.


That is a worthwhile refurbish and upgrade. I am now ready for

your next chapter in the Marquee maintenance thread.


Another question. I have 2 more CLC449 op amps to do 3 neck

boards (friends PJ). One neck board has a H1100 while the other

have CLC409s. I will replace the CLC409s. Which CRT would to be

best to get the neck board with the H1100 op amp? Blue?


Thanks again for sharing this information.


DH


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## Tom Rosback

What a great thread! One note of caution on Video Amp replacement.


Specs only tell part of the story, and sometimes even direct replacements aren't. So, if you don't have the test equipment, like a really fast oscilloscope, stick with replacements that the experts like Mike have tested and proven. Current feedback op-amps like the CLC (Comlinear) parts, and the Burr-Brown and Analog Devices parts, are all optimized with somewhat different feedback components. The (-) inputs are very sensitive to capacitance to ground, and you can easily turn these amps into oscillators.


Mike's advice to stay away from experimentation on the neck boards is sage indeed.


Regards,


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## mp20748

Now, that we've had a chance to look at the neck board, and was able to examine it physically, or using test patterns - let's keep going...


If all was fine from your observations and/or corrections if necessary, let's move on to the VIM. The same IC's on the neck board (U2) could be found on the VIM. You should look for the same chips (CLC409, H1100, CLC449). The same upgrade applies here on the VIM. The only difference would be that the CLC409 may not cause smearing if on the VIM, you would more likely have a problem getting a very clean resolution pattern, or the image would suffer from a weakness in detail, either way, it could have a noticeable effect on the image. If the neck boards tested ok, or have been corrected, you'll now need to perform a visual check for that IC (CLC409) on the VIM, it's much easier to get to than the chips on the neck boards.


Next, you'll want to resolder the mini RCA jack's on the PC board. And clean both sides of the VIM with denatured alcohol and a tooth brush.


After this, we'll get into cleaning the power supplies and the rear vent cover. I hope to post some pictures on this (make sure you have a can of compressed air handy).


----------



## Tester007

OK.. in my 8000 I know for sure the board I did the resistor mod for the anamorphic squeeze was from an 8500 so there may be others..


Now I have pulled out the VIM board. I also have a spare VIM from an 8100 I just bought. The one I pulled out looks completely different than the spare. 1st, the one in the machine is FAR cleaner.

But I will list some of the other differences I can see offhand. The one I am using has H1100 chips, the spare has cl449a chips. The spare has a socketed U41 SYNC2.0 chip while I can find no U41 on the board I am using. The board I am using has 3 OMRON 1474Y1 (RL4,6,9) and the spare none. Anyways.. there are many differences.

I am using 50-2005-03P ISS

spare is 50-2035-02P ISS.2

Now is it worth cleaning off all the pet urine off this spare I bought and using it, or just take the 449's off of it and put on my current board in place of the 1100's? Do any of the other parts listed (or not listed.. there are quite a few) make a big difference? These boards look not much alike except for the 6 blue boxes and the large green cap.


----------



## mp20748

Tester,

your spare board is a later version. It has a wider bandwidth video chain. It also has the blue gamma chip (U22), that might not be on your other board, because some of the early 8000 VIMs did not have the gamma circuit. There are several other technical differences, and they were mostly added for higher scan rate use (super computer presentation), and may not have any benefit for HT. You should be fine with both, but if you like the high band go with the CLC449's.


Your spare is a better board...


----------



## Stephan99

It would be cool if someone could make a DVI input board for the Marquees, then I could go straight from my HTPC to the projector with a cable...


Mike P is this doable ?


Stephan


----------



## mp20748

Guy's

somehow I did not receive the samples (CLC449 replacements). I wanted to test them and post back the results. I'll purchase the chips and we'll continue with the maintenance. I want to make sure the replacement chips will work before we go to the VIM (video input module).


And before this maintenance is over, I plan to announce my success with repairing the HVPS.


Stephan,

I can check on that, but I'm sure DVI does not break out to analog. If it does, I'm down - let's go for it...

Stephan,


----------



## Claus_LM

Hi Guys


It is for sure possible, but I don't think it will improve things. If we are talking "normal" DVI we could use a Silicon Image part or perhaps a TI part like this one: http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/tfp403.html 

It is possible to get a part to transform it analog RGB, but I cannot remember where I found it last. It will be more or less a glue-less solution combined with Mikes knowledge about low-noise power supply it could be good.

I think the problem is the bandwidth and cable length.


Another much better solution is the new upcoming Inova chip-set. They can transmit up to 50 meters using twisted pair cable.

Take a look here:
http://www.inova-semiconductors.com/...g_ddl_link.htm 


They can interface glue-less to a Silicon Image DVI receiver on the input.


Kind regards, Claus


----------



## M NEWMAN

Stephen,


Already available....Geffen makes a DVI to SXGA (analog) convertor in the "Extend-it" product line. Retail: $400. If you want one, we're dealers for Geffen if you can't find it locally (and you probably can't). Shoot me a PM if you're interested.


----------



## Jay Wilson

Mike, I haven't gotten my samples either. When/if I do, I'll post. If you haven't gotten yours, I'll send you mine.


----------



## Stephan99

I guess I was thinking more along the line of somehow tying in the computer video cards DVI output ( or out like on the centerstage DVI ) directly into the digital video part of the marquee, and bypass the analogue to digital portion of the projector ?


I guess I dont even know if a Marquee's video chain is ever really condsidered digital... so I am may be babbling.


Stephan


----------



## M NEWMAN

Its not - stays analog right to the neck bds. It's everything else that digitaized.


----------



## mp20748

Guy's,

the MAX4224ESA (Dallas Semiconductor) chips arrived on Friday. I've already installed them on a neck board, tested and viewed. So far this chip seems to be a perfect substitute. Could not even notice any difference in the gray scale.


This chip seems to be a good replacement for the now obsolete CLC449.


That completes the neck board, now we'll pick back up on the VIM...


----------



## Jay Wilson

Cool! Great news (Because I am already setup to order from them







) I hope that means mine are close by as well.


On to the VIM!


----------



## Donald W Howard

Thanks Mike


I placed an order for 6 of these from Digikey. I will use 3 of them

on neck boards dated 24/93, 26/93, and 07/94. The latter has a

H1100. All have the blue cap circuit upgrade. Streaking on these 3

boards is not bad, only a little on the low band, more on the high

band. I will post results after replacing.


Thanks again


DH


----------



## mp20748

DH,

you're on the right track, but also replace the two electrolytics (C1, C26). They are [email protected]


Replace the caps without removing the PC board from the heatsink. That can be done from both sides of the heatsink. removing the PC board from the heatsink can damage the leads on the RF power transistors that are screwed to the heatsink.


Once we're finish with the VIM, you should not have any smearing at all, and if you do it would most like be coming from the source on the BNC's.


There are several other things that can cause some streaking, if not on the source. But they would require a more technical approach, and I'll not post that on the forum, the repair is very involved. And I can do that repair if needed.


----------



## Tester007

Donald, how did you get from Digikey? 100 minimum count and backordered to March 3rd (I think that was the date). ... You can now order directly from Maxim/Dallas on their website for cheaper.


----------



## Donald W Howard

Hi Tester007


I checked. My order is still pending. I must have missed a

keystroke somewhere. I just thought I had finished the order

with Digikey. Thanks for the tip about Maxim/Dallas. I will

cancel the Digikey order and go for cheaper.


DH


----------



## Craig_W

Mike,


I have a 98 or 99 (can't remember right now) EH 8500 Ultra. Will these or any other mods for the 8500 benifit me or have they been done already by the manufacturer since it is a newer model? Does it still need the anamorphic squeeze mod done to it?


Thanks,

Craig


----------



## mp20748

Craig,

you should be good. Unless you have an early version board in that ultra.

Read back over the thread and do the test for smearing.


You may need the anomorphic sqeeze if it has not already been done.


----------



## BLS

MP,

Can you describe what the anamorphic squeeze mod is. I have read a little bit about it on the forum, but I don't know the details. I can't get the search function to work here. It just hangs.


What does it improve and how much do you charge? I'm assuming because the PJ was designed for computer graphics and such, that we need this mod to improve the PQ of movies.


I have a 1995 Marquee 8000. I'm going to save this thread when your fiinished and do as much as I can myself when I have time.


What is your estimate of the average time it would take to do these mods? A full day, or more?


By the way, thank you for sharing your time and talent with us.


Brad


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BLS_
> *MP,
> 
> Can you describe what the anamorphic squeeze mod is. I have read a little bit about it on the forum, but I don't know the details. I can't get the search function to work here. It just hangs.
> 
> 
> What does it improve and how much do you charge? I'm assuming because the PJ was designed for computer graphics and such, that we need this mod to improve the PQ of movies......
> 
> 
> 
> Brad*



Brad,

that mod is commonly known as "vertical squeeze mod" it decreases the vertical size for 16:9 operation. I think you're right that the circuit was probably designed more for computer presentation.


The mod requires the replacement of 3 resistors on the vertical board (R704, R804 and R904). These resistors are 30K ohm, they should be replaced with 56K ohm resistors, and it's best to use metal film resistors @ 1 to 5% tolerance. I use 1% 1/4 watt from Digikey.com:


Part# 56.2KXB


----------



## BLS

Mike,

It sounds like the anamorphic mod and the other mods you have been sharing need the same skill level. Common sense, manual dexterity and a basic knowledge of electricity and safe work habits.


My screen size is 47.25" X 84"


With my 8000 on almost all aspect ratios the horizontal size is 100 (Maximum) in the size menu and I am able to adjust the vertical size to match the correct aspect ratio.


Do I assume correctly that I don't need the mod if I'm able to adjust the vertical to where it supposed to be?


----------



## mp20748

BLS,

so far, I'm sure the vertical mod is the only mod I've mentioned on this thread (I don't intend to get into mods). We've been discussing maintenance and upgrades. And most of the upgrades (chips) come from my notes, and we've not really got into much maintenance. The "vertical squeeze mod" was not commonly used back then, it was used only on one install that I could think of, and that was a 16:9 screen where the projector was used for a High def source. It seems to much needed for HT use though...


----------



## BLS

As long as they improve picture quality and reliability, you're the man! I'll call them whatever you want me to.


MP, it's all new territory to me. This is my first PJ. I have been dreaming about it for years. Iv'e got tons of patience. So if you only want to help with maintenance and upgrades, I'll be grateful for that. It will be more than I started with and that's why I'm here. Maybe someday I can offer something useful on the forum.


Brad


----------



## mp20748

Brad,

I hope I didn't make you feel out of place, because everyone that post has something useful to contribute on the forum, you're only asking questions. And if no one asked questions on the forum, there would be no purpose for the threads.


My goal is to stay focused on "upgrades" and "maintenance", and this thread is certainly open for discussion on mods and such, but MY intent is to stay the course, and I'll respect any comments between others on mods. And there are some very valid mods out there for the Marquee. It just that I'll not go into discussion on the ones that I know of.


For those who are into modding, I would highly recommend KBK. I've seen his workmanship, it's class "A" also because I'm against the average Joe with a Radio Shack soldering iron, attempting to transform one of these precious products into something it's not capable of doing. And it's been good hearing from some who would like to have their neck boards upgraded rather than try the procedure themselves. And the reports of the difference that's been made once the upgrades have been performed. keep in mind, I've not suggested something that the manufacturer did not do, I've suggested what the manufacturer did, but only without replacing the entire board.


I'm waiting to get back out into the shop, and when I do, we'll finish with both maintenance and upgrades, but I hope to post pictures on cleaning the dust from the various parts of the projector, and a few other things.


----------



## nathan




> Quote:
> *I'm against the average Joe with a Radio Shack soldering iron, attempting to transform one of these precious products into something it's not capable of doing. And it's been good hearing from some who would like to have their neck boards upgraded rather than try the procedure themselves.*



I am one of the average Joe's who did the neckboard fixes himself. I needed to get rid of the horrible streaking cheaply as possible. I went 2 for 3. All I can say is unlike branches of the goverment, 'two out of three' _is_ bad. One of the boards never worked properly after the fix, and I even had some help from someone with good soldering skills. Luckily, I was able to get a new board for free from the same place I got the PJ.


Anyway, I just wanted to backup what Mike said and be a voice of caution to any DIYers. The improvements are great, but so are the risks. If I had the $, would totally have someone else do this kind of stuff for me in the future.


----------



## BLS

I'm sure a lot of you folks would agree. There is nothing like the feeling of fixing something yourself. I'm 42 years old, so I have made a mistake here and there over the years. I agree it's risky, but during those years I have developed a sense of when I'm out of my league. Then I get to admire the skills of someone else.


I may start these procedures and find out i can't do it. I'm willing to try though. I've been into electronics one way or another most of my life.


Nathan, what do you think went wrong?


Brad


----------



## nathan

The board would work for a while, then start flickering, and then stop all together. I am not much of an expert, but it sounds like a heat issue to me, maybe a poor solder joint expanding? I came across the new board pretty soon after that so I didn't bother trying to fix it.


I am sure most of these things can be done with only moderate skill, but now I am a little hesitant. Especially since the thing is finally mounted, working, looking great, and I would rather watch movies than mess with it for a while.


----------



## stylinlp

Im all confused about most what your all talking about. My friend and I bought 2 EHome Marquee 8500's but the dept we bought them from at work says that they were going dim. we shined a flashlight into the tubes showing that the tube wear wasn't all that bad. We used that webpage as a guide that shows pics of various conditions of tube wear.


We would like to do everything your talking about here but have no clue what your even talking about. Power grid voltages, replacing all sorts of chips, getting electricuted. All sounds fun but we need someone to do this for us. Is there anyone qualified around Denver CO to do this?


----------



## M NEWMAN

Stylinlp,


Those Marquees sound like they are suffering the dreaded heater overvoltage problem. Down on the motherboard near the back of one of the outside CRT's you will see a small white 2 pin plug labelled P14 - using a multimeter set to DC voltage, check it. It should not exceed 6.45v - if it does, chances are high that the tubes are trash (but re-buildable through VDC). The LVPS needs to be upgraded to prevent this from happening again.


----------



## BLS

I have been saving the tips, fixes and so on for when I take mine down from the ceiling.


Can a do it yourselfer perform the LVPS upgrade?


Can you give any detail here?


Brad


----------



## rwarner007

MP,


I know that you want to avoid discussion of mods, but please clear one thing up. You described the vertical squeeze mod as:


"The mod requires the replacement of 3 resistors on the vertical board (R704, R804 and R904). These resistors are 30K ohm, they should be replaced with 56K ohm resistors."


On my EH 9501 LC, the person who sold the unit to me was adamant that a different resistor swap was needed. His assertion is that resistors 706, 806, and 906 should be changed to 490 ohms (leaving 704, 804, and 904 unchanged.) Is this correct?


Ron


----------



## mp20748

Ron,

I'm looking at the tech bulletin on this from the manufacturer


"VERTICAL SIZE MODIFICATION ON THE MARQUEE"


In this tech bulletin there is a reference to R706, R806, R906. And it states that 'IF' the existing resistor is 430ohm, replace with 470ohm, otherwise replace with 680ohm.


In other words, the resistance needs to increase and the existing resistors must first be removed. Some of the older boards used 430ohm resistors and they should be replaced with 470ohm resistors. Newer boards used 470ohm resistors and they are to be replaced with 680ohm resistors.


In this application the manufacturer recommended replacing the RAMP resistor. In the popular (R740,R804, R904) we're replacing the FEEDBACK resistor on the buffer amp.


the replacement of the RAMP resistor was the fix for PC boards:


50-2023-03P and 50-2023-03P these boards the tech sheet indicates that you replace R706, R806 and R906.


On PC board 50-002020-02P you replace R704, R804 and R904.


What I've found is that you can replace R704, R804 and R904 on all of the three boards. And the replacement of the RAMP resistors is not necessary. So the simplistic way is to replace R704, R804 and R904, mainly because the tech sheet has too many options to achieve the same thing.


------


Brad,

I would recommend that you have the LVPS done by someone who has sucessfully done it more than once. Many are simply adjusting the pot to achieve the proper voltage, but are not replacing the pot, and if you make the adjustment without replacing the pot, it'll eventually flake out again. and if that happens the tubes are at risk. Also, it's important to make sure the repair is done right so that you don't accidently allow too much voltage on the tubes filaments, hoping to the voltage set to the right level.


My opinion - have it done by someone who's very familiar with doing it.


----------



## mp20748

I have a digital camera on order. When it arrives we'll pick back up on this thread.


We're still going to cover the VIM, and from there we'll look at the rest of the projector.


Then, you'll get a chance to see why this basic chassis design has not been changed in the past ten years.



You'll need the following for the maintenance:


- Denatured alcohol (about $3.00 from home Depot).


- Standard tooth brush.


- Standard bed sheet.


- Vacuum cleaner


----------



## sly

While I getting parts for my dead HVPS I took out my neck boards and to my surprise they seem to be the new type

my PJ it a 1995 8000


to I took a snap of it>>>


----------



## sly

Next I took out the VIM

It had H1100 op-amps and a junk op-amp for red

I had cooked red a long time ago and just used what I had on hand.


here is the VIM ready for rework I had order the max4224


----------



## sly

After removing the old chips off of the VIM


----------



## sly

now the VIM with the New MAX4224 chips installed


----------



## mp20748

Sly, you're on the ball here. Thanks for the pictures. I'm on my second camera and I can't get the pictures right


----------



## mp20748

OK,

we'll put off the cleaning until I get my hand on a camera that I can make sense out of.


But until then, we'll move on to the rest of the set.


So far I've received very good reports from the chip upgrade on the neck boards, and some have already replaced the chips on the VIM, with very good results. The CLC449's were used in the later version Marquees, they replaced the CLC409 and H1100. Both of these chips had a roll off problem and could cause smearing and slight distortion in the image when used on certain resolutions. The H1100 may not show a problem, and may not be a problem from testing, so the replacement of the H1100 is an upgrade option.


Next we'll look at the VIM (I was hoping to have the camera for this). EArly version 8000's did not have the blue gamma circuit on the VIM. It was included on all of the later models. That circuit is a simple op amp, and maybe we can add it to the boards that does not have the circuit, I'm sure someone could make that little circuit and make it available, it'll be quite easy to install.


I'll throw in a mod.

The first thing that we'll do on this board (after the chip upgrade) is a Sync Mod. This is the removal of the sync circuit from the green input (sync on green), this is very important especially if using component to RGB conversion, because that could cause TRI- level sync on the BNC's (composite sync on all three BNC's). The problem that this could create is that you could have sync on all five BNC's. That's not a problem for the Red and Blue, but by having this signal on both the 'H' and 'V' BNC's to include the green BNC can confuse the auto sync detect circuit that automatically detects what type of sync that's being feed to the projector. The auto detect circuit looks for sync on the following: separate sync on 'H' and 'V' BNC's, composite sync on green BNC, composite sync on 'H' BNC. This circuit worked fine before component sync conversion came along possibly placing sync on all five BNC's.


This is a simple fix, remove R152 (it should be located about 1" from the blue relays) on the VIM module. By removing that resistor, you remove the sync circuit from the green BNC. There is presently no present modern application for sync on green (that I know of), especially for HT use.


Let's look at this and then we'll move on to a few other things on this board.


----------



## Larry Fine

Mike, if you can develop a circuit, I'd be happy to design and etch circuit boards, and even write instructions, for a drop-in module. Heck, help me source the chips, and I'll even build ready-to-install boards. I have printed-circuit-board software and etching services available.


Larry
www.fineelectricco.com


----------



## sly

Mike does my PCB have the blue gamma circuit ??











if it does I could draw it up in eagle.

it appeared that all 3 pcbs were the same

I did not keep track of which was which..

I just pulled all three out







I guess I should have marked them..


----------



## Jay Wilson

Sly, The gamma circuit would be on the VIM (Video input module) not on the neck boards.


----------



## mp20748

The early version VIMs that did not have the blue gamma circuit, they had all three of the mini RCA plugs in line. The later version VIM (8000, 8110, 9000, 8500, 9500, etc) had the blue RCA plug slightly higher on the board and a little off to the right. The gamma IC on these boards is "U22".


Let's take Larry up on his offer to design and build the circuit for the early VIMs. But we'll need to see what the demand for them would be first.


----------



## sly

OK the I see, that makes it easy there is a lot of room there.


I guessing the circuit has a fet in the feedback of a op-amp and uses the video voltage to control the fet.


I would think it would be easier to mod the op-amp that is there that way the video path will not have to be altered. and I do not think there is a need for a PCB or if one is made it will not have to be a pricey impedance controlled one.


so it looks like mine is the old one









I keep on kicking my self we had a VIM go bad on a new 9500 and they threw it out. I should have grabbed it..


This will be tricky it will have to run at full band-with with out any ringing. does any one know what the Gama value is??

Any one using a HTPC it seems a lot easier just too add that value to the LUT in the video card. I think most Video cards have the option to add gamma tables


----------



## Donald W Howard

Mike


I will purchase 3 of the gamma boards, either assembled or kit.


DH


----------



## sly

I just looked at the heater circuit on the LVPS

it is just using a lm117 voltage regulator

http://www.qsl.net/ok1duo/lm317.htm 

cool webpage to do the math


the circuit in the LVPS has a 120 ohm as R1

and a 1k pot 0-1K for R2

that gives us 1.25v - 11.67V


if you cut the trace and add a 470 ohm resistor in series with a 20 ohm pot

giving us 470 ohm - 490 ohm

we would get 6.1458V - 6.3542V

This also will have less power in the pot.

a value of 489.6 for R2 should give 6.35V


This seems very simple replace 1k pot with 20 ohm pot

one cut and add one 470 ohm resistor.


What do you think?


save them tubes


----------



## Larry Fine

What would happen if the pot became intermittent or opened completely? The output voltage would still rise. How about putting a 25-ohm pot and 100-ohm resistor in place of R1, and the fixed 470-ohm at R2?


Larry
www.fineelectricco.com


----------



## sly

>>What would happen if the pot became intermittent or opened completely


it will never be more the 20 ohms unless it is burned

and it is just as likely to burn a fixed resistor

and if say the wiper fell off it would be 20 ohms

aka 6.3542V


it is very unlikely to fail.

The original circuit

would have a large voltage shift for a very small movement in the pot. so just a bump or thermal change would cause it to go out of spec. With this mod the whole range is safe. And is makes for very easy rework.

To move the pot to the other side would take a lot more rework.

I do not know why they made it that way in the first place

you are just asking for it to jump out of spec with such a sensitive setting. I guess that why they used a 25 turn pot

if they had made it like this in the first place they could have use a 1 turn with out any problems. I think this was ether a over-site or done so they could replace CRT's and boost service income.. Ether way it is bad practice to have an adjustment move any more then is needed. In fact I do not know why it is there at all they could have just used fixed parts set to 6.35V

the only thing I can think of they might have thought that a 2nd source CRT would use a different voltage??


----------



## aspec2

Sly


I don't think that is true. I think Electrohome outsourced the power supply to the company in Illinios with a load spec. I don't think this power supply is just in the Marquee. I think it is used in many devices, not just projectors.


Instead of the pot, why not design a circuit, sampling output to use as feed back, to replace the pot. Remember that filament voltage drops to about half when the pj is turned off.


Walt


----------



## cmos9

Why not just replace the pot with a fixed resitor?

-peter


----------



## aspec2

Peter

"Why not just replace the pot with a fixed resitor?"


As age sets in the voltage will probably change and you want to maintain the 6.35, if possible, with a little adjustment.


Walt


----------



## cmos9

But this circuit uses a voltage regulator, so unless the value of the resistors changes (not likley at all) then it should hold the output voltage regardless of the load as long as the load does not go out of spec for the regulator.

I am missing something?

-peter


----------



## docajay

Is there a mod or tweak or board/part that will:


a) Increase the light output


b) Increase the resolution rating up to 2200 by 2600 or 2048 by 1536 ansi pixels that you see written in the hi-end magazines for the Reference Imaging/Accurate Imaging "9500s".


Sorry if this is a stupid question or has been already answered.


Also, I was wondering if you experts have a list of products or services/mods that you could do for us newbies for a price and their benefits.


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by docajay_
> *Is there a mod or tweak or board/part that will:
> 
> 
> a) Increase the light output
> 
> 
> b) Increase the resolution rating up to 2200 by 2600 or 2048 by 1536 ansi pixels that you see written in the hi-end magazines for the Reference Imaging/Accurate Imaging "9500s".
> 
> 
> Sorry if this is a stupid question or has been already answered.
> 
> *



You'll have to learn how to read those magazines the same way you learned how to eat chicken -- don't chew and swallow the bones.


----------



## sly

"Why not just replace the pot with a fixed resistor?"


you could but it would be hard to find a 489.6 ohm resistor









And they are a bit off any ways. you might be able to find

a set the would work it it should stay

but there is the spot for a pot and this way you can make it dead-on.


" Instead of the pot, why not design a circuit, sampling output to use as feed back, to replace the pot. Remember that filament voltage drops to about half when the pj is turned off. "


The circuit does have feedback it is the feedback part that make the voltage adjustment.


There does not seem to be any thing to drop the voltage when it is off/standby, so it must be dropping the voltage on the input it the LM117 voltage regulator.


The difference in turning the pot all the way back and forth after the mod will only change the voltage 0.21V

before the mod it would be 10.42V . And this is with easy to get parts of common values. And just one cut on the PCB. I am trying to keep it simple and easy to do. and should never have to be messed with again.

if it moves a few percent over time no big deal

a few percent of 0.21V is very small but a few percent of 10.42 and is a different story.


----------



## cmos9

OK I just changed my pot to a 485ohm (measures 485) 1% 1/4 watt metal film. The other resistor measures at 120.5 ohms. Using the formula for the lm317 I should see about 6.28 volts.


With the CRT powered up but cool, I measure 6.16 volts on the jumper near the rear of the blue tube. I will remeasure in an hour and see what it is after everything gets warm.


Anyhow if this still hold to be the case that I see 6.16 volts,then I would suggest having a pot etc in series with a fixed resistor as sly suggested such that you can get a total resistance of at least 500 ohms. This should allow more range. I will probably add another 10 - 15 ohms to mine to get to 6.27 or so


-Peter


----------



## sly

120mV is not very much I bet that is the drop in the wires from the regulator to where you measured. ??


----------



## cmos9




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sly_
> *120mV is not very much I bet that is the drop in the wires from the regulator to where you measured. ??*



This is what I was thinking as well. After two hours the voltage was measured to be 6.15 volts so it is holding steady (watched "Momento" which was a good movie). I will increase my R value to be 500 ohms. This should give a therotical 6.43 volts but if I still see the same 120mv drop/error, then I should be at 6.31 which is close enough to 6.35volts. I will of course report back when I try this out (Probably won't be until tueday though)


-Peter


----------



## leggwork

Hi Mike,

I just got around to checking out my video neck boards. The red and green boards have the blue soldered on capacitors (looks kinda kludgey) but the blue board doesn't. The all have H1100's and the metal can Q12 and Q19.


Is it normal for the three boards to be different?


thanks,

bruce


----------



## mp20748

Yes, that's normal. The Marquee has been in production longer than any other CRT projector, and in the last ten years there have been some changes made. The neck board was the item that had experienced most of these changes, but only the very first boards were a source of problems.


The board that does not have the blue caps soldered on it, would more likely develope the "blanking out on bright scenes" problem. But until that happens and if there is no noticable smearing in the image, leave it be and enjoy.


----------



## leggwork

yeah, I've got bigger fish to fry first - just discovered that my filament voltage is over 8 volts!!!!!!!!


Good think that less expensive CRT rebuilder surfaced in another thread here - hope it works out that their quality is good ...


cheers,

bruce


----------



## bob2010

Hi Guy's,


I've got a pic of my VIM below, the upper part shows "U22", but the

RGB jacks are straight. My VIM is layed out different compared to Sly's VIM.

So, to avoid assuming on my part, comfirm for me that I do have the

gamma circuit. Is this what you could call an early version of the newer

VIM?


The lower pic shows R152, this is the resistor to be removed to do

away with sync on green, correct? I just have to hear a yes from someone

before I take that off the VIM. If I'm wrong I don't want to test my skills

getting it back on.


Thanks for starting this thread Mike, your teaching this noob a thing

or two.


Bruce


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bob2010_
> *Hi Guy's,
> 
> 
> 
> The lower pic shows R152, this is the resistor to be removed to do
> 
> away with sync on green, correct? I just have to hear a yes from someone
> 
> before I take that off the VIM. If I'm wrong I don't want to test my skills
> 
> getting it back on.
> 
> 
> Thanks for starting this thread Mike, your teaching this noob a thing
> 
> or two.
> 
> 
> Bruce*



Yes, take the resistor (200 ohm) out. And if your board has "U22" you have the gamma circuit.


----------



## bob2010

Thanks Mike.


Bruce


----------



## sly

if you can't see the images try this
http://www.geocities.com/hvps2001/ 



I thought I would start off by replacing bad parts on the outside of the potting. I will start off with the G2 control circuits. The resistors in mine were way off and they are carbon type (the worst kind of resistor) they get out of spec if they get hot and they also add white noise.

I think this might be what causes some of the faint snow that has been seen in the background by some people



Start by removing the bad resistors

you can see I have removed one already.
Attachment 156324 









All 6 replaced. Attachment 156325 









Note the Air gap don't let the resistors touch the PCB. They need air flow for cooling. Attachment 156326 









Next I replace the input filter caps. The new caps are smaller so I scraped the solder mask off the trace and just soldered one pin of the cap to the trace.

Notice the burnt white cap..









Now the next 2 caps and resistors and yes those little guys are 2 watt I rechecked when I got them and I even ran 20Volts through them just to test that they are 2 watts Attachment 156327 









Notice the air gaps on the resistors the leads help cool them and I have the caps as far as I can get. Attachment 156328 








http://www.geocities.com/hvps2001/


----------



## sly

you will see milky white stuff on the left next to the metal.

is anyones working HVPS have this??


image for the post before this.


----------



## mp20748

It's on most of them, even the working supplies. I gave up on trying to figure out what it is or where it comes from.


----------



## leggwork

When I bring up the convergence pattern at 15.75Khz, it is jittery, mostly in the horizontal direction such that I see three vertical lines for every real vertical line. At any higher frequencies I get a stable pattern. Does this jitter indicate some flaky components? When I look at an NTSC input (say, from a VCR or DVD player connected to the decoder board), I get a pretty good picture with some horizontal jitter at the top of the image. (gotta get working on my HTPC!). Any suggestions?


Also, does the anamorphic squeeze mod also squeeze the overlay graphics (e.g. the slider bar that shows when you click on Contrast). My overlaid graphics are running off the bottom of the screen, and there are some convergence zones where I don't see the box at all.


thanks,

bruce


----------



## Dirk

For those of you who wants to build up the gamma correction; here it is.



Does it make sense to build a gamma correction for green and red too?


----------



## sly

Thanks I thought it would be.

it is primer for the potting

see SS4155 http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/...s/primers.html 


and I think the potting is/should be TSE3331 HV and Thermally Conductive
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/3331.html


----------



## Jay Wilson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *I gave up on trying to figure out what it is or where it comes from.*



There are some things better left unknown


----------



## Tester007

If someone can slap together a gerber and BOM I could look at making a small run of these. Would of course give free samples to all who help!


----------



## Tester007

If someone can slap together a gerber and BOM I could look at making a small run of these. Would of course give free samples to all who help!


----------



## BLS

Hey Sly, I'm suprised someone has not asked you yet. What model camera and what resolution are you using for those pictures. Those are outstanding!


I'm going to guess at least 4 megapixels, probably more.


Also, did I get lost here? What parts and numbers are you replacing in these pictures? I can see your heading that states HVPS, but what are the part numbers you are replacing the bad ones with?


Brad


----------



## Jay Wilson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Tester007_
> *If someone can slap together a gerber and BOM I could look at making a small run of these. Would of course give free samples to all who help!*



A gerber? I'm thinking the BOM is a bill of materials list...but a gerber? What the heck is a gerber? Did I miss something?


----------



## leggwork

a gerber plot, as in a layout for the PCB


----------



## papaek

Gerber is a file format used for PCB construction(and other photo etch processes). It contains the data needed to create the etching masks for the PCB. There is another file that is used for the drill data to make the holes.



Ken


----------



## Jay Wilson

OK...Cool...Never heard it called that.


----------



## Larry Fine

Like I said before, I can take the schematic and make the PC board layout, make the file, and get boards etched and drilled. If needed, I can source the components and solder them and pigtails for PJ connection.


Here's a couple of screenshots of a PC board layout I made from a magazine article:

This one includes the componenet layout.
This one is just the trace and hole layout.


The boards are complete with plated-through holes, but not silkscreened with component layout, which is an extra charge. The circuit we are interested in is simple enough.


Larry
www.fineelectricco.com 
My system


----------



## sly

You might want to try eagle www.cadsoft.de 

the free version will work for this. It runs under linux and windows. as for a pcb place AP is the cheapest I have found http://www.apcircuits.com/ 


The circuit is easy not what I would expect..

I was thinking it would use a FET in the feedback .

The hard part is going to figure out the size of trace to use to get 75ohms any one good at SPICE??


ps I use a Panasonic PV-SD5000 3.3 Mega Pixel for the pics


----------



## sly




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BLS_
> *
> 
> Also, did I get lost here? What parts and numbers are you replacing in these pictures? I can see your heading that states HVPS, but what are the part numbers you are replacing the bad ones with?
> 
> 
> Brad*



so far I use the same values for the resistors

r9,r10,r15,r16,r21,r22 560k 2watt

r5,r46 220 ohm 2watt

c1,c2 .47uF 630V

c6,c3 1uF 400V


you should be able to read the values in the pics.


Allied part #

BC COMPONENTS 2222-468-28105 Capacitors, Metallized Polyester, Radial, 1.0uF, 400 Volts 648-3080



BC COMPONENTS 2222-468-40474 Capacitors, Metallized Polyester, Radial, 0.47uF, 630 Volts 648-3116



OHMITE OY564K Resistor, Ceramic, Axial, 2 Watt, 10%, 560k 296-5456


BC COMPONENTS 5083NW220R0J12AFX

Resistor, Power, Film, Axial, 2 Watt, 5%, 220 Ohms (Pack of 100) 649-6128


----------



## Tester007

Eagle will work, but not many places will take the format. APC does good work but on small runs charge an arm and a leg. I had a run done last fall of small 1x3 pcb's and had to do a minimum of 500 of them and got charged 5$can each for them even though I only needed around 200.

I have a place in Canada I can get the silk added on for free, gold plating for free (if wanted) and a good price on small runs although the original setup is always a few bucks. I've done hundreds of thoudsands of bucks of biz with him so I get very good deals. I've been manufacturing pcb's and circuits for sale for about 3 years now so have been to most places... from little 1"x3" pieces (daughterboards) to larger more complex 100 piece plus boards, thru-hole and smt and I am set up in-house to do that assembly also. The only downside is, is I have always hired another person to do my layouts. If that schematic is correct, then it should not be a problem although I need to know values and types for components to get the drill sizes correct for the holes. I would also have to pay him so if anyone here was adept at that that would save some $$.


Where would this connect? I have a non-gamma board, and one with the circuit and there is quite a difference all over the board so I don't know where it would go. But just as important as making the thing is a good mount if possible. If someone could send me a pic of where on the board it goes, maybe we could get lucky on the trace spacings and get a nice low-profile right angle header to mate to and build that into the circuit. If not as Larry said, wiring is the only way.


But is this even worth getting into cost wise? I would love to offer free samples as I said earlier to any who help, but it would not be cheap to be done. You can't go in and just ask for 20 pcb's..well I guess you could but its going to be expensive. Prototype pcb's (you usually get 5) run in the neighbourhood of 40-50$can each and you have to get 5 minimum. There is no silkscreen, no solder mask, no drill holes different then about 5 drill sizes they use since they don't want to be changing a lot of tools. I would never use one of these boards for an actual use. It is only one step over home-done etching so you definitely want an actual run done to keep quality up, which then goes to minimum amounts. What would people be willing to pay for a gamma circuit and is it worth it?

[email protected] 


prototype pcb vs final version.. no comparison.


----------



## sly

I guess AP likes us in the US I do small runs all the time with them like 20 pcbs for under $100 us


As for how it should go I would think if it had a RCA connectors in and out it could just plug it in the green RCA and plug the blue cable into it. Then just fly a the power wires and solder them where ever there is a good spot.



bye the way nice pic of your smartcard reader











oops I meant blue


----------



## mp20748

I would suggest a very small square board, that could be attached floating above the main board on wire stand-offs (1/2"). That small board should have the mini RCA jack on it, and it should have a mini RCA plug that would plug into the "blue" out on the VIM. The only other thing that would need to happen from there is to attach both + and - 5 volt supply and make sure that the small board is properly grounded.


----------



## Tester007

20 for under 100$us?? The film cost is usually more than that! Was that just single sided or smt?


I just dug up last bill from apcircuits (they do all my proto's) for a batch of prototypes.

Setup-67$,

4 boards @ 4.6"x3.1" - 55.29$,

and extra drill 13.50 for a total of 145.30$can for 4 boards...and thats bare, no silkscreen or solder mask. Approx 100$us.

Whoever you talk to there must be cutting you a very good deal! Most of the time its not even worth it for a company to set up the machines just to run through 1 sheet.


Mike,

wire standoffs poses a threat of shorting something if it shifts. What I would suggest, and I only have the board 'with' the gamma circuit to look at is to use one of three methods. If the non-gamma board is different then neither of the first two might work.


1) use the area near U35 to mount using double sided tape. If circuit is small enough this should be no problem.


2) use one of the two holes drilled through the board on the connector end to use one of the plastic PC-motherboard spikes to mount it in. It wouldn't be exactly firm in its hole, but would be fine.


3) the best way as I see it is to have a small pcb with a male RCA pointing downward on the bottom, and a female on the top, possibly at right angle in case height is an issue. The pcb would 'plug-in' directly to the old RCA jack and then the wire plugged into the jack on the top. All you would need to solder would be a power source and ground. This would be very firm and give the shortest path, greatest ease of install. (I think this is Sly's idea also)


----------



## Claus_LM

I use a company in Ireland or Germany called www.pcb-pool.com. I guess you have something like that in the USA. The price is 32.7 USD per 15.5 inch^2 for a doublesided PCB. You don't pay any startup cost at all. You don't need to make Gerber files. They take your PCB file directly.

I can put a test with my next PCBs. I will send files in three weeks time.


Kind regards, Claus


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Tester007_
> *
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> wire standoffs poses a threat of shorting something if it shifts. What I would suggest, and I only have the board 'with' the gamma circuit to look at is to use one of three methods. If the non-gamma board is different then neither of the first two might work.
> 
> 
> 1) use the area near U35 to mount using double sided tape. If circuit is small enough this should be no problem.
> 
> 
> 2) use one of the two holes drilled through the board on the connector end to use one of the plastic PC-motherboard spikes to mount it in. It wouldn't be exactly firm in its hole, but would be fine.
> 
> 
> 3) the best way as I see it is to have a small pcb with a male RCA pointing downward on the bottom, and a female on the top, possibly at right angle in case height is an issue. The pcb would 'plug-in' directly to the old RCA jack and then the wire plugged into the jack on the top. All you would need to solder would be a power source and ground. This would be very firm and give the shortest path, greatest ease of install. (I think this is Sly's idea also)*



Stand-off is the same procedure the manufacturers use on retro upgrades. And mounting too close to U35 would be a bad idea because it is a DAC, this is a high bandwidth multi-layer video board, it's very important that the circuit is mounted within that area of the board, that section is isolated from the rest of the VIM.


The procedure for mounting is not that important, but locating the board outside of the video section of the VIM could induce noise in the blue. There are mixed signals (analog/digital) on that board, and much care should be taking to keep them apart, also keep in mind that the neck board is actually a very high power high frequency amplifier.


----------



## bob2010

Sly,


the work you did on the HVPS, was that for repair or upgrade? Or should

I just be thinking don't fix it if ain't broke.


Can anyone recommend a sourse for the 20ohm 1W pot on the LVPS

for filament voltage. I looked at Digikey and everything in 1W is huge,

3/4" long. Is this the norm for this type of pot? Actually I was trying

to keep the same lay out so it could be adjusted from outside the case,

does this go out the window with pot replacement?


Bruce


----------



## sly

"was that for repair or upgrade?"


well I would call it a repair with upgraded parts


The old parts were out of spec so I would call that a repair. but the new parts are better and might fix the snow problem so that would fall under upgrade.


for the LVPS it looks like a 475 fixed and a 20 ohm pot is the right mix taking in account the IR drop from the Vreg to the crt. I will try to post the digikey # when I get home.


----------



## sly

when using AP you must use the free drills or it will cause the cost to skyrocket. Also the setup is fixed so the cost of 4 vs 20 is almost the same. and I make my boards small

I like to do SMT for most things. it is so much quicker to build and to rework with SMT.


----------



## Jay Wilson

Sly,

On the upgrade vs. repair question...were you actually having a problem when you changed components? Aside from testing and them testing out of spec, was there anything else going on to clue you in?


When will you be testing for the "snow" issue?


----------



## sly

my HVPS had a a resistor burn in the potted part

so I am now going through the whole thing replacing all bad parts.


I have never noticed any snow my self but other people have seen it . And it is well known that carbon resistors cause white noise and if the resistors are damaged that the noise is worse. mine were way off (very damaged) now this has nothing to do with the failure but is way out of spec.

and should be fixed


and the caps were a bit weak and have heat damage.


so this is like replacing worn-out shocks on a car with new better quality shocks that have a lot longer life.


As for the caps they were showing there age and were getting weak but I was more worried that the might short later on doing damage. The working voltage on this type of cap go down as the cap ages. Just like the HV caps in the potting.


So far all the parts I have replaced is the same value.

just new and in spec parts and the new type of resistors should not go out of spec like the carbon type did.


This is not a mod. I not changing the value of any of the parts. The only miner thing is the .47 600V cap is replaced with a .47 630V cap but that is just the voltage the new cap comes in and having more voltage margin is OK.


so think of this as more of a preventive maintenance.


----------



## sly

FYI


digikey 3299X-200-ND 20 OHM 3/8 SQ CERM MT SL POT


For use with a cut and a 475 ohm resistor soldered over the cut trace.


----------



## Larry Fine

Okay, I'll "spill the beans" and tell you guys where I get my boards from. It's called ExpressPCB . The board CAD software is a free download. The mini-board option is $62, flat, for 3 boards, which can be cut into smaller ones if you just duplicate the pattern on each board. The price includes:


Double-sided boards

Plated-through holes

No silkscreen or solder masks

Board size must be 3.8 x 2.5 inches

Shipped the next business day


The circuit is probably small enough to fit 6 on each of the 3 boards, which means 18 boards for $62. Now that ain't bad at all. Even 3 per board is still a bargain. All you do is design the layout, upload your file to them, and you get the boards a couple of days later.


Larry
www.fineelectricco.com


----------



## Tester007

Sly, yes I know non-standard is extra which is what the 13.50$ was. But even if you take that off its still expensive.. however looks like Larry has found a pretty cheap place!

Definitely a good price for doing Proto's. Thanks Larry!

But in an actual run they look to be 50-70% higher than I have paid for a final version (mask..etc).

So I think its up to what anyone wants.. a non-masked, self-cut board or a sanded, masked pcb. I personally feel if we are doing this as an upgrade then do it properly. Else it may be making something worse.

I will take the schematic and send to my pcb guy and ask him what it would be to do make a run as he can whip off a Pcad layout easily. Then I guess people can make a choice, but I think I am going that way. Mike I am going to PM you in a week when I get back in town with anything you think may be a problem or your ideas on it and what to look out for then I'll run a batch.


This thread is getting interesting!


p.s. Sly and others stock on pot is getting low at D-Key so you can get the same (a little cheaper) at www.alliedelec.com part#754-2702 as well.


Does anyone know where to get a replacement fan with the same specs for power supply? My rear one was making an odd noise a few days ago so I think I might as well replace it while I have my green tube off and I have it out for pot replace.


----------



## cmos9

In regards to the LVPS and heater voltage,


I changed my resisistor to a 500 Ohm 1/4 watt metal film 1%. It measured at 496 ohms at room temp. With this in place I now measure 6.26 volts at the connector near the blue tube. This measurement was taken when cold and also after watching a 2 hour movie and was the same.


I am going to guess that replacing your pot with a fixed 500 ohm resistor will yield similiar results for others. (you certtainly would not exceed 6.35 volts unless something else was wrong in this circuit.)


-Peter


----------



## sly

I have used ExpressPCB too.

And I just used PCBexpress it is easy to confuse the two withe names like this. It is a different place I used them because they did smaller trace/gap and I needed it for a part that had very fine pitch leads but it cost a lot more..

by the way every place I have ever went takes the Gerber that eagle puts out. I can't say the same for pricey Cadence tools.



Just remember this is a circuit running a Ghz speeds (edge rates) and the PCB acts like caps and inductors and transformers at this speed also the traces need to be 75 ohm impedance

or else you will get reflections. Normally this type of circuit and PCB is run through SPICE to get every thing right.


----------



## Tester007

Exactly... This is why I am trying to point out getting it done for the cheapest like a prototype on FR-4 material is probably not the best idea when the whole point is to make things better..










My shop does regularily FR-4, Polyimide, BT, MC-5, GML-1000 and can get others with surface finishing of H.A.L., Entek 106A, or Immersion Gold. I am going to be gone for a week, but when I get back should have his reply on costs and I would like to float the final idea and layout past a couple people, Sly included if you would? I have a few friends with Marquees and would like to make some boards the best they can be.


----------



## mp20748

Good job guy's. I'll take it that we'll have a retro-fit blue gamma circuit available some time in the near future.


There's one more thing to do on the VIM, and then we'll move on to the convergence and vertical boards, but before we move on make sure to resolder the center contact on the three mini RCA jacks, and also do clean this board with denatured alcohol.


Here is another nugget:


Replace the three mini coax cables that are connected from the neck boards to the VIM on the mini RCA's - use commscope 73501S (mini 75 ohm). Make sure that all three cables are the same length.


Note: Only the early vintage 8000/9000 VIM boards did not have the gamma circuit.


----------



## Jay Wilson

Greetings Mike! Anything special we should use for the new rca ends that attach to the coax? Is there a particular brand you like over others?


----------



## sly

It would be good if someone could get a shot both front and back of ether the factory doter PCB or of the new VIM PCB where the Gamma circuit is. I think we should try to do the exact same layout. because the layout of the traces is part of the circuit. I do not know how many layers the VIM is so we might not be able to see all of the traces.


----------



## bob2010

These pics help at all? Let me know what you guys need and I'll post 'em

here or email them.


Bruce


----------



## bob2010

backside


----------



## sly

Great pics bob


As I thought layers on the inside can't be seen

but the top looks like is has a lot of the circuit









so I think this is very good info.




Also I think I have finished the schematic of the HVPS

I hope I have not made any mistakes.

POWER PC BOARD

ASSY 404251-

 

hvps.pdf 78.216796875k . file


----------



## Claus_LM

Hi Sly


This is awesome. Thanks a lot for the great work. This will make our Marquee investment even better. Now we should have a chance of repairing it if we run into bad luck.


Kind regards, Claus


----------



## mp20748

OK guy's, let's stay on track and keep some perspective here. There are areas of these projectors that has certain SAFETY limits. We should stay focused on "maintenance and upgrades" and be very careful to not violate any of the critical safety areas of these remarkable machines.


Every CRT projector sold in the US, Canada and most of Europe, must meet certain interferance and radiation requirements, before they can be sold in these countries. In the US it's the UL, FCC, FDA to name a few.


The FDA (food and drug administration) department of health and human services (DHHR) regulates radiation limits for CRT projectors. The FCC (federal communications commission) regulates "interferance" and let's not forget underwriters laboratory (UL).


The Marquee in its original design has all of the above approval. And we should be very careful to maintain these very critical safety concerns. These HVPS are manuafactured and potted to keep these supplies from being a safety issue, they are very carefully designed that if for any reason the supply could contribute to the emission of X-radiation, the supply would not come on. This is one of the built in protect features.


One of the reasons why that power supply is potted is to help seal and keep that safety system intact. By removing the potting material and replacing parts, that internal system has been violated, therefore the proper equipment MUST be used to calibrate the two mini pots (R35/R36). One is for overvoltage protect and the other is to set the high voltage at a precise 34.9KV.


Unless you have these capabilities, I would suggest that if you enter the potted area, do it with the understanding that you have violated the safety system, and that your projector or the projector that the supply will be operating in could be a X-radiation hazard. Make sure that you indicate that on the supply where it can be visually seen.


Now, during the continuation of this thread, let us not get into anything that could bring any potential harm or danger to anyone. I ask that any further discussion on the repair of the HVPS be not discussed on this thread.


----------



## Tester007

One last thing on the gamma. Heard back today and the shop I go to recommended not to do it and that they were not capable.

Part of response was:


"Material is also specific and many cases require teflon base.Very difficult to plate.Sorry to say for high freq.pcb. Desiging pcb lay out is also critical."


----------



## sly

I do have to agree there is REAL DANGER in this potted part too.

The caps can and will keep the High voltage inside and if you open it you will find the voltage.

and there are big caps with up to 12KV each!!!

And you need special equipment to repot it.

A vacuum chamber oven .

and the potting stuff is not nice ether you need a VENTED vacuum chamber oven. I have all this stuff so I going for it but it is not going to save me any cash. I am doing it just to understand it better.

and it is a lot of work... I do not think I would do it again


The stuff that I posted on the out side is safe to do. it is just bringing old components in spec

and it has nothing to do with the safety systems it is mostly the G2 circuit. that just happens to be on the HVPS PCB


and NEVER NEVER touch the sealed pots on the HVPS

they are sealed for a reason..


----------



## sly

Now back to our regularity scheduled program...


FR4 is OK that is what is VIM is. But it is a impedance controlled PCB and that cost as well as it is many layers.


This type of circuit can be done it just needs to have the impedance matched

but this it the hardest type of circuit to do.


If we can get the trace set to 75 ohm use the same layout

I think it might work.. we might have to tune each one

use a gimmick or two. ( you ask whats a gimmick)

it is 2 wires twisted together with the insulation still on.

yon then trim and twist/untwist to change very very small amounts of capacitance. used in old TVs in the UHF tuner. And also use to null the parasitic capacitance of a transistor.


And if you use a HTPC I still think it would be better to just set the blue gamma in the RAMDAC I think all video cards let you set the gamma.


----------



## Atom

Mike

I have been looking for the mini RCA type male connectors to use when replacing the input cables but I can't find them anywhere.Do you know of a source?

Thanks

Andrew


----------



## Tester007

Just a thought, but since Mike wants to keep this thread on topic as to maintanance and some updating, and I agree, why don't we start a separate thread for those that have a few extra boards around that want to try some actual tweaking?


----------



## mp20748

Andrew,

I've been using the ones that's there. The mini RCA's are hard to come by. I have a lead on some and if that works out I'll post back.


Guy's,

tweaking is something that most of us who are into electronics, and are somewhat skilled with a soldering irons loves doing. But unlike the common audio amp or other piece of electronic gear, these high end CRT projectors can be a real source of danger if care is not taking when tweaking or trying to make the product better than what it is.


There are three areas of concern when randomly tweaking these beast, and they are:


- Low voltage power supply. It has special testing for interferance and isolation (Hi-Pot) that is conducted at FCC compliance labs. These test are required for FCC and UL compliance.


- High voltage power supply. These supples are tested and should have at least two stickers or labels on them indicating that they are safety compliant for X-radiation safety (DHHS).


- Neck boards. These boards on the Marquee has been modified at the factory for FCC compliance on the earlier models, the two white wires that are attached to these boards are called "FCC connectors" they were added on the earlier models to add better grounding to the neck boards for a much better FCC compliance.


All of the above modules or boards have "safety critical components" in them, and only the original part should be replaced when replacement is needed, therefore "tweaking" is not a good idea in these circuits, because if the wrong or a different component is used it could disable the protect circuits (safety), and cause the CRT's anode voltage to exceed the safe limit, and if that happens the projector could turn into a low grade X-ray machine. The reason for leaving these components in place is the assurance of safety. These projectors have been flawlessly safe over the years, thanks to strict government regulation, and also to the fact that the power supplies are provided from industrial experts in supplying safety compliant products.


So if you're into tweaking, please be very careful with the above three modules.


----------



## Tester007

I don't think I would touch them. What I am more interested in is tweaking some of the input area much like what has been done for the smaller Marquees.


----------



## mp20748

Tester007,

as we go along I'll point out some areas were I think improvements can be made, but I'll not get into suggesting too much, because I think that the proper upgrades is all that this projector needs. There are areas where improvement can be made for better stability, and so far we've covered a lot of them. Once we get to the vertical and convergence boards you'll see what I mean.


keep in mind that the Marquee was not a projector that was manufactured for a year or two and then it was discontinued, it's now been in production for over tens years, and the engineers at Electrohome was very involved in this projector for that ten year period, they did not move on to some other product, therfore it has experienced much attention over that period of time.


Any image of performance improvements to the Marquee is only relevant to the quality of the source material and setup skill involved.


Unlike many other CRT projectors the Marquee has an almost directly coupled video chain, with only one coupling cap in each video channel.


We're gonna have some fun with the next two boards...


----------



## sly

The mini-RCA's is used for the IF connection on some tunner modules I have not seen were to get them yet.

But they are not that un-common. Becaus RCA does not make them and RCA is a trademark they seem to go by the name of phono.


----------



## bob2010

I found some right angle phono plugs at http://www.connect-tech-products.com/ part# ctp-175-12

these are 2.35mm, any idea if these are the right size?


----------



## sly

I wet to work and grabbed a set of calipers

and the VIM's mini RCA's measured 6.35mm with a 1.7mm PIN


so it looks like CTP-174-6A-1

and

CTP-175-11 with 1.7mm pin option

is what we can use..


So Bob found them...


so I will ask around for a SPICE expert to help me figure out the trace thickness and I think we are good to go..


----------



## Atom

Try Here for mini phono plug http://www.excess-solutions.com/audio_connectors.htm 

Andrew


----------



## mp20748

Guy's

good job on the research, and good luck with the gamma circuit. And thanks for helping me with this. let me assure you that if you're keeping up with this and making the recommended changes where needed, you should see a change in the performance of your Marquee, and you'll also gain a better appreciation for it when we're done with this thread.


I've exausted myself last week wearing many hats, so I had to push myself away from the table for awhile to chill out, now all is cool and we can continue with where we left off.


We covered the VIM's and neck boards, we've also did a little poking into the low voltage and high voltage power supplies, and we'll revisit that for a little more discussion later on. From time to time I'll throw in a performance mod. But I'll not share all that I know










Next we'll look at the vertical, horizontal and convergence boards. These will be more like reliabilty upgrades and maintenance, and I'll show how to minimize drifting and make the projector more stable.


Tomorrow...


----------



## Nardjinku

Is there a lot of differences between the Marquee and ECP 4101 or does some of these mods apply to the ECP 4101 also?


Thanks, Henrik


----------



## mp20748

Henrik,

the ECP series is very different from the Marquees. I don't have much experience with the ECP's as I do with the Marquees, and maybe someone who has that experience will start a thread like this for the ECP's. The Marquee is a different beast.


---------------------------------


Today we'll start with the deflection and convergence boards, but before we start there, we'll perform some overall maintenance on the projector as a whole, this is where the bed sheet comes in. Note: the following could slightly effect your fine setup.


- place the sheet on the floor below the projector (place around if floor mounted), you will need a vacuum cleaner (with nozzle) and brush to loosen dust with, canned air, lens cleaning cloth and glass cleaner.


- remove the three lenses from the front of the projector (non LC models only), and mark or label them as to where they came from (r, g, b)


- now remove the bottom (if ceiling mounted) cover (2 screws) and rear cover (6 screws) that cover large heat sink on the rear of the projector, as well as the cover over the power supplies (4 screws).


- with the lens removed (non LC models only) and the three covers removed, dust out the projector as much as possible, making sure to also remove all dust from the vent holes in all covers. Use the brush (or canned air) to delicately loosen any dust from exposed areas inside the projector, you can also pull out the focus (between the red and green CRT's) and the horizontal (between the green and blue tubes) boards and dust as much as possible with canned air.


- place vacuum nozzle on the vent holes on the neck boards, and the hole openings were the wires are coming out of the CRT housings.


- remove both power supplies and remove their covers and dust out the insides using canned air.


- dust out the area where the power supplies were remove from, and reinsert the power supplies.


- now we clean the surface of the CRT's using a glass cleaner, and we clean the surface of the lens with a cloth lens cleaner, and then re-attach the lens to CRT they were removed from.



----------



Later today we'll start on the Horizotal deflection board.


----------



## Sparky015

Mike, I have been following your thread so far doing the necessary maintenance, upgrades, and in some cases, mods that you recemmend. Everything is great so far. I have a M8000 manufactured in 1995. My question to you is, when I put the projector into standby when done using, the fans small squeaking noise has they shut off, is this normal in your experience? Is there a way to lubricate them while I have my machine apart, or do they need to be replaced? Your or any other person's advice on this would be greatly appreciated. I figured now is the best time to take care of this. Thanks in advance!


Paul


----------



## mp20748

Paul,

there are five fans in a Marquee. Two are in the low voltage power supply (right where the power cold connects), and three on top of the projector (where the mounting bracket attaches). You should first try to locate where the noise is coming from (which location). If it's the three on top of the projector it could be that a small group of wires had become loose from the harness and are touching one of the fans. If that's the case then you have to remove the cover off the fans and secure the wires away from the fans, I use wire ties for this.


If it's coming from the power supply you'll have to contact Tim Martin for the fix.


-------------------



Ok, it's now time for the fun part. We are going to cover three boards, and all three of these boards play a part in convergence drift. First we'll start with the horizontal deflection module (between the green and blue tubes).


For this you'll need a good soldering tool, solder and a 220 mfd @ 160vdc cap (C50). And remember that we clean each board as we go with denatured alcohol.









Replace "C50" it's in the modulator circuit on that board, The modulator circuit supplies the operating voltages for the deflection power stage (power mosfets), this circuit varies the voltage for the fets based on the scan rate that the project receives. If this cap leaks, it'll cause erratic width performance, or inability to achieve max horizontal width.



Then we'll move on to soldering various contacts on the board. If you remove this board and closely examine the contacts you'll immediately notice the need for soldering. The contacts that will need this soldering are the the three power mosfets and two transistors that are mounted to the heatsink.









The next items for soldering are the five relays and six coils that are mounted

next to the three large relays.









Next, inspect the three yoke connectors that are attached to the board, look through the plastic connector and look for burns or dark marks in the area where the contacts meet. If you see burn or darkness on that connector, it'll need replacement.


This simple procedure greatly stabilizes this board, and it'll protect the board from failure, because it's very important that these contacts are tightly soldered, if not, as the board heats up, you could experience drifting or even board failure.


If you can't see the images try: http://www.geocities.com/hvps2001/hdm/


----------



## sly

I keep getting asked about the LVPS mod I did so here it is.


This is the trace that needs to be cut.










And this is the 475 Ohm resistor installed. I used a 805 size part rated at 1/8 watts you might want to use a 1206 for more wattage just to play it safe.










Now just install a 20 ohm pot.


----------



## Sparky015

Thanks Sly, the pictures helped immensly in understanding what was going on. I'll let you know how it turns out.


----------



## abshar

Sly

the picture are missing!!!


could your correct it please


thanks



Abshar


----------



## Jay Wilson

Strange...I couldn't see any of the pictures in Mike's post until I visitied the Geocities page and came back. Now, because they are "in memory" I can see them all fine on this page.


I can't see the ones from Sly about the mod though...what is a link to the website with these pics Sly?


----------



## Sparky015

Jay,

If you right-click on the picture that isn't there (the box with the x in it), then go to properties, you will see the website where the picture is stored. Just copy and paste into your browser, and do the same thing with Mike's pictures. Put them into memory, and then come back to this thread. Don't know why you have to go through all that work, but it works.


Paul


----------



## Jay Wilson

DoH! Thanks Paul!


----------



## sly

I edited my post to include the link. I think they mark a cookie or something just to force you to see one of there ads. after you are there reload works so it is not just a cache thing. That what I get for being a cheapskate


----------



## Tester007

Mike, is it possible to kinda get a bit of a partslist for future things you will be going over? Digikey charges 8$ per ship so it would be nice to get most of the things at once if possible... We have one or two half decent parts places in town here but they usually have to order in the odd stuff anyways as well.


----------



## mp20748

Tester,

we're almost finished with part upgrades. I'm going through my notes, and once we get to the vertical and convergence boards, we'll be doing something a little different from what we've already done, and there are some more parts to replace, but I'll rather post as we go.


I've shown the results of these upgrades to a few forum members in my area, they have seen the results to include witnessing the convergence from a cold start to a one hour later warm up, and that was after a partial upgrade, and I've since made a few more very noticeable improvements. Now they've insisted on me doing the same to their projectors.


I want to be clear that I'm not saying that we're able to make the Marquee better, though there are a few components that could use an upgrade, but they were in the very early version Marquees, and as you have seen from the difference from the neck and VIM boards changes, Electrohome has already made their own upgrades. What we're doing is applying some or most of them to the early version projectors, with the intent of bringing the early version projector as close as possible to the later versions.


So far some of you have presented some highly workable ideas, and I'm looking forward to hearing the results (gamma, filament, etc.). there are some amazing minds on this forum.


Tomorrow - convergence board.


----------



## mp20748

Now I'll share a real nugget.



First we'll start on the vertical. This board has three separate vertical amps that drive the yokes, and they are directly controlled by the DAC's (digital to analog converters) on the board. There are 8 resistors I'll recommend for change on this board. Changing the caps on this board did not make any measurable (scope/meter) change or difference on this board. But replacing certain resistors did.


On the early version boards, you'll see that resistors R720, R721, R820, R821, R920 and R921 are mini one (1) ohm resistors. On the later version boards, there are two of these one ohm resistors in parallel, they are the plus and minus 15 volt supply rails for the vertical output IC's. So that would mean that the early version boards had a one ohm resistor on each of the IC's supply, and the later version boards have one half ohm (1/2 ohm) on each supply rail. In other words the upgrade was a doubling up of these resistors. I only had three problems with the design of these projectors, and the use of these mickey-mouse resistors is one of them. They're supposed to be fusable metal film resistrors at 1/2 watt










Your choice would be to upgrade by adding the other resistor in parallel to the one in place, that's if you have the early version board, or do as I do on both the early and later version boards -- remove all of them and put in real fusable resistors. You'll also want to replace R5 and R6 with the same resistors also.


solder each lead on the three vertical output IC's, and remember to remove all solder flux (denatured alcohol), flux is good for solding, but bad for the circuits.


The above greatly improves the vertical boards stability.


---------


Now for the convergence board. This board is very well designed, with only one exception, yep, they used the same little mickey mouse resistors on this board. The early version boards had one each, while the later version boards had a double stack. There are twelve of them on the convergence board (24/stacked on the later version). R118, R117, R218, R217, R318, R317, R418, R417, R518, R517, R618 and R617. There are also 48 1.2 ohm (same mickey-mouse resistors) right near the power transistors.


And while you have this board out, make sure you solder the many leads for the 30 power transistors that are heat sinked. If you look very closely at the contacts on these transistors you should see the need for soldering, especially on a high use projector, take your time and solder all 90 contacts.


Next, you'll want to clean that heat sink surface insulator (denatured alcohol) and apply a very light film of petroleum jelly on that insulator. Before reinserting the board, use a ruler or other flat device and align each transistor so that each one would be perfectly inline with the heatsink surface. Now take each heat sink clamp and bend back for better tension. Do the same for the vertical and stimator boards (if it has stimator board).


Now, I'll find a hole to crawl in, because I've just shared one the nuggets I did not want to share


----------



## Jay Wilson

No...stay out of the hole....you are getting sleepy....don't stare into the light...noooooo.










Thanks Mike,

I finally started my upgrades yesterday, beginning with the HDM. I am still waiting my green to return from the rebuilders, so I don't want to do much without being able to test in between. I'd hate to "knock" something loose and not know it until I was completely finished...especially the removal/replacement of all those resistors.


Plus, if I wait long enough, I can order all my parts at once!










Thanks again for this great comntribution!


----------



## Jay Wilson

And Mike, a question, on the need to resolder...


All of mine on the HDM looked really good under the magnifying lamp...


Are these cold solder joints from the factory or do they go abd over time from heat etc? My unit has only about 3500 hours on it, built in 1996 so I am unsure whether I should be seeing this.


I'm doing all the resoldering anyway, just was a curiosity question.


----------



## Mongo

Geocities is not the best place to try to link pictures from, because they don't allow direct links to files.


I am willing to donate whatever web space is needed for the pics and web pages related to the project and give it a permanent home as an article on my Techweenies site.


If the folks doing this are interested, you can send me a PM and I will coordinate it with you.


Mongo


----------



## mp20748

Jay,

I'm not sure but I believe the weak soldering joints would be on most of the early version boards, not really noticed on the vertical though, but it's best to solder them as well (Preventative Maintenance). I think it may come from heat and high hour usage, because the transistors on the heatsink get really hot. I had the same problem on the 9500 that I have here. It took awhile to isolate where the drifting was coming from, but I did get to put my finger on it (literally). Another way to check for this is to let the projector warm up for about twenty minutes, bring up a converged grid and press on the convergence board from the center, if the convergence shifts, it's the connections. You can also do this with the horizontal deflection circuit, bring up the grid and then touch the area where the coils are with a plastic non conductive, non magnetic object.


You may not have noticed this on your Marquee, but you've probably heard this before: "after the projector has been on for awhile I have to touch up on the convergence" The Marquee if properly setup and operating properly should show very little drift from cold to warm up. I have a few customers who has complained about this drifting, so I rolled my sleeves up and went to work here in my shop, and I had the perfect Marquee for it, it had high hours and it was a little drift happy. It's now very tight, and I like showing it off, but it required a little work to achieve that stability.


The good thing that I really like about the convergence and vertical boards is the stabilty of the output devices, especially the power transistors on the convergence board. These transistors can get very hot, yet they only show variance if they are not properly mounted to the heatsink. And I always revitalize the rubber isolator when I replace a semiconductor, I don't trust dry contact, it works fine when the isolator is new, but after awhile the surface hardens and looses its effectiveness.


Mongo, thanks for the offer. I'm sure it's something we'll probably need. I'm waiting on the gamma project, and would like to hear how the power supply filament fix pans out. I think that with our cooperative work effort, we'll keep this wonderful work of electronics at the apex of video display.


----------



## sly

Mike would it not be a good to use heat-sink compound instead of Vaseline??


I have Gamma circuit in eagle I just had no time last week to do any thing. I hope to do the layout tonight.. Then all that will be needed it to adjust the trace width so it is 75 ohm.


----------



## mp20748

Sly,

sure, heat-sink compound should be fine, as long as it can revitalize that isolator, that's the real goal. I did not mention heat-sink compound because some of it can be so thick and pasty. I also use the small tubes from Radio Shack, it goes on just like petroleum jelly, but make sure you clean the isolators surface first.


Oh, and don't forget to use this same procedure on the stigmator board (next to the convergence board), for those who have 8500's, 9500 and 9000's


----------



## Donald W Howard

Hi Mike


Thanks for the latest installment of Marquee maintenance. I am

having difficulty locating "fusable metal film resistors". Digikey has

some described as "metal oxide resistors" or as "metal film resistors".

They carry the YAGEO RSF series which offers a .47 ohm or a .51 ohm

at 1 watt resistor. The BC and Panasonic resistors are only offered in 1

ohm or higher at 1 watt. will the YAGEO be OK even though it is not

described as fusable? They all have a 5% tolerance.


Thanks


DH


----------



## mp20748

DH,

here you go:

http://www.micro-ohm.com/ 


You'll want Part# FRN1/4 - 1 ohm 5% tolerance.


----------



## Donald W Howard

Mike


Thanks for the info.


DH


----------



## sly

OK I found a cool free program to do the math for the trace widths.

http://www.hp.woodshot.com/appcad/version302/setup.exe 


it won't be long now...


----------



## sly

I think I almost got it done.


I think I will add 2 10uF caps on the power coming in

it looks like is will cost about $1 each for the raw PCB's from AP.


take a look .


----------



## mp20748

Kudos!


----------



## aspec2

Mike


Hellloooo Mike


I think there is still one board to go. I am waiting with iron in hand O Great One. Please impart more wisdom to those, like me, who kneel at your feet.


A Dark Side Disciple


----------



## mp20748

Ok, we'll get back to this in a day or so. We have the focus and control boards, and then we'll go over what we have covered, and I'll throw in another nugget or two...


mike


----------



## sly

I got some sample jacks from Connect-teck very nice guys.

so I will be sending out the PCB as soon as I check that the jacks look OK.


----------



## sly

I got my Gama PCB back and have finished building the first one. I have not powered it up yet.. I need to find a split power-suply I can use and good pulse gen. to test/tune it..


----------



## jcmccorm

Betcha Mike's got a bunch of split power supplies (+/-5V) ala MP-1.


Cary


PS. You can also get +/- 12V from a PCI slot. I use a riser card with a thru-hole PCI connector on it and solder wires to the back of it to get at +/- 12.


----------



## sly

I found a supply + - 5V



There is some over shoot I trying to get rid of.

the mini RCA is crap and causing some ringing on its own..


I think one of the mods should be to remove them all and replace with something that is 75ohm impedance.


I have been busy so I have not spent much time on this

but I am in the tuning stage now..


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sly_
> *I found a supply + - 5V
> 
> 
> 
> There is some over shoot I trying to get rid of.
> 
> the mini RCA is crap and causing some ringing on its own..
> 
> 
> I think one of the mods should be to remove them all and replace with something that is 75ohm impedance.
> 
> 
> *



Sly,

the circuit (by itself) should not cause overshoot, nor should the mini RCA's. It sounds like the chip could be oscillating, and that's one of the problems when using high bandwidth Op amps, that's where the bypass caps come in, and that's also why they are to be placed as close as possible to the chip. Your board design looked good (I'm not sure here), so I would not suspect the board design, and therefore redesign the circuit itself to tame the "overshoot".


Why would you use a separate power supply when there's +/- 5 volts on the board?


I would think you should mount the circuit board as close to the main board as possible (I would mount it right on top of the RCA jack). Get your power from the board, but use 100uh inductors (one for each +/- power rail) for 'decoupling' from the main boards supply.


I wouldn't worry about the RCA's, your problem could be more related to grounding, decoupling or board location.


----------



## sly

I am using a lab power supply because I have the board in the lab not in a PJ.

I have a pulse gen. feeding it and then the output goes to a scope. I had to make the 50 to 75 ohm network for the output of the pulse gen. And a 75 to 50 ohm network for the scope. This is how I am tuning it. So far its needs a 1 pF cap in the feedback loop the bypass look good but there is a tad bit of drop on the edge so I am going to add some small caps on the power I think the .1 is to big for the real high frequencies. I have only spent about 1 hrs on it so far I been busy doing other stuff.


It is getting there. When I think it looks good then it will go on the VIM and it is plugged on the connector there is no way to get it any closer then that..


I know the mini RCA cause some ringing because if i run it through the connectors going from the generator to the scope my nice square wave gets distorted with some over shoot. This just makes the tuning a bit harder thats all. I am feeding it with very fast edge's off a HP pulse gen. probably a lot faster then it will ever see in the PJ but it is good to tune too.


----------



## Marvin Match




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sly_
> *I had to make the 50 to 75 ohm network for the output of the pulse gen. And a 75 to 50 ohm network for the scope.*



This is incorrect. The input to the scope is not 50 ohms, it is a high impedence on the order of 1-10 megohms. With a 10X probe it's higher still.


The output from the board should be terminated with a 75 ohm termination (assuming that the load presented by the next stage is 75 ohms). Ignore the load presented by the scope.


Marvin Match


----------



## jcmccorm

Unless he's not using a scope probe but a coaxial input to the scope.


Cary


----------



## Marvin Match




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jcmccorm_
> *Unless he's not using a scope probe but a coaxial input to the scope.
> 
> 
> Cary*



Nope. The direct input to the scope is 1 megohm shunted by 20-35 picofarads. Thru a 10X probe it's more like 10 megohms and 2-4 picofarads.


A far cry from 50 ohms, probe or not.


If he's going directly into the scope, then he needs to use 75 ohm cable and a 75 ohm thru termination right at the scope.


Marvin


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Marvin Match_
> *Nope. The direct input to the scope is 1 megohm shunted by 20-35 picofarads. Thru a 10X probe it's more like 10 megohms and 2-4 picofarads.
> 
> 
> A far cry from 50 ohms, probe or not.
> 
> 
> If he's going directly into the scope, then he needs to use 75 ohm cable and a 75 ohm thru termination right at the scope.
> 
> 
> Marvin*



Yep, and the scope should not effect the circuit at all, even if the circuit is connected directly to the scope (1 meg) using a 75 ohm terminator.


----------



## sly

Most scops have a 50ohm term you just hit the button and the 50ohm lites up...


I had a bad SMA I have replaced it and I am getting very good results now. I added 2 .01uf to the bypass and the 1 pF on the feed back. They stole my scope to do work, how dare they.... so I moved down to my lab and used my old 1Ghz analog scope ( I trust it more anyways the digitals lie)

I took some snaps I will download latter.. but I think it is working as well as the op-amp will let it. If the 1pF is left off there is a bit of over shoot.

If there is some role-off elsewhere we might want that boost in the hi-end..


----------



## jcmccorm

...and they have the 50ohm input because you need this when using a 50ohm coax as your probe.


My TEK2230 just has two 1M/20pf inputs but the digital at work lets you switch to 50ohm.


Cary


----------



## sly

the normal thing if you cant see any thing try http://www.geocities.com/hvps2001/gamma/ 



so here is the circuit board











here it shows the gamma boost in vs out notice the ramp change.










here is the speed test









and here is my mess with my old analogue scope

the ramp Gen. and the Pulse Gen. power supply etc.


----------



## jrichards




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *Guy's,
> 
> the MAX4224ESA (Dallas Semiconductor) chips arrived on Friday. I've already installed them on a neck board, tested and viewed. So far this chip seems to be a perfect substitute. Could not even notice any difference in the gray scale.
> 
> 
> This chip seems to be a good replacement for the now obsolete CLC449.
> 
> 
> That completes the neck board, now we'll pick back up on the VIM...*



Where can one get this chip. I tries everywhere and they only do quantity of 100.


Is their somewhere I could purchase 12 or so?


Thanks!


----------



## Sparky015

jrichards,

Go directly to the Dallas semiconductor website. From there you can request samples and get your 12 for free! This is the only place that I know of where you can get them in small quantities (less than a hundred). Good luck!


Paul


----------



## jrichards

Thanks!

They are sending me 10.


I have a Marquee switcher which has the 409 chip in it's output circuit. Do you think it would be worth while changing it out with the new part? Also is their any other mods fot this switcher which might help it's performance?


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jrichards_
> *Thanks!
> 
> They are sending me 10.
> 
> 
> I have a Marquee switcher which has the 409 chip in it's output circuit. Do you think it would be worth while changing it out with the new part? Also is their any other mods fot this switcher which might help it's performance?*



Yes, remove the CLC409's, and I'm sure there's other things that could improve on the switchers performance, but I can't say because it's been a while since I've seen one.


The MAX4224 would definately improve that switcher...


----------



## sly

I been very Busy but I thought I would start a parts list for what has been covered so far.


I think I got everything.



Neck


6 22uF 160V 105 degree

3 MAX4224


VIM


6 MAX4224


Vert squeeze


3 56.2K ohm digikey # 56.2KXB


HVPS G2


r9,r10,r15,r16,r21,r22 560k 2watt

r5,r46 220 ohm 2watt

c1,c2 .47uF 630V

c6,c3 1uF 400V


Allied part #

BC COMPONENTS 2222-468-28105 Capacitors, Metallized Polyester, Radial, 1.0uF, 40

0 Volts 648-3080



BC COMPONENTS 2222-468-40474 Capacitors, Metallized Polyester, Radial, 0.47uF, 6

30 Volts 648-3116



OHMITE OY564K Resistor, Ceramic, Axial, 2 Watt, 10%, 560k 296-5456


BC COMPONENTS 5083NW220R0J12AFX

Resistor, Power, Film, Axial, 2 Watt, 5%, 220 Ohms (Pack of 100) 649-6128



LVPS heater fix


20ohm pot

digikey 3299X-200-ND 20 OHM 3/8 SQ CERM MT SL POT


475ohm 1206


Vertical


fusable metal film resistrors at 1/2 watt

R720, R721, R820, R821, R920 and R921 R5 R6

change to .5 ohm


Convergence

There are twelve of them on the convergence board

R118, R117, R218, R217, R318, R317, R418, R417, R518, R517, R618 and R617


and

There are also 48 1.2 ohm near the power transistors.



horizontal deflection module 220 mfd @ 160vdc cap (C50)


----------



## Sparky015

Is this thread dead? I was hoping to get the last of the information needed to finish my Marquee 8000.


----------



## aspec2

I think Mike is busy building a transcoder. I still have resistor mods to do. They just came in. I won't be ready for the rest for a cuppolla days yet.


Walt


----------



## mp20748

I'm ready when you guy's are.


I forgot to mention to remove the contrast modulation board (color correction module), right next to the ACON board (above the control module). This module is not in all Marquee's, look for it on the 8500, 8500LC. 9000, 9500LC.


This board will allow color correction in nine different zones. Much needed for multi-display commercial systems for edge matching and such, but not needed in video applications, and could effect the overall purity of the image - REMOVE!


----------


Right now I have a 8500LC that has the full maintenance performed on it. It's a customers unit that replaced another 8500LC he had hung in the same spot. So we were able to clearly see what improvements the maintenance and upgrades can do, and I have not done a calibration as of yet, but we have some pretty tight lines, and this is with VDC rebuilt tubes.


-----


I'll be making another visit to Arizona to visit Tim Martin real soon, and from that visit, there should be something very exciting to look forward to


----------



## Jay Wilson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *I'm ready when you guy's are.
> *



Now that's a silly question







I think we're all on the edge of our seats Mike!


----------



## jcmccorm

Hahaha, I was thinking the same thing Jay! I think Mike sent us students off to do our lab experiment and was waiting for us to come back with the lab report and say we're ready for the next step.










I love this thread...


Cary


----------



## bblue

WRT .7v vs 1v input levels, does anyone know if in practice the Faroudja DVP5000 has sufficient output? Its specs say 700mv nominal, with specific signals indicated at 1v. I run its output through an ehome switcher which then drives the pj. In almost all cases when 5000 is in use the pix seem darker and noisier compared to other inputs. But the 5000 processes only DVD which is a lower quality source to start with, compared to HD sources which also connect to the switcher.


--Bill


----------



## bblue




> Quote:
> Originally posted by jrichards
> 
> I have a Marquee switcher which has the 409 chip in it's output circuit. Do you think it would be worth while changing it out with the new part? Also is their any other mods fot this switcher which might help it's performance?
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> To which Mike said
> 
> Yes, remove the CLC409's, and I'm sure there's other things that could improve on the switchers performance, but I can't say because it's been a while since I've seen one.
> 
> 
> The MAX4224 would definately improve that switcher...



The 409's are on the RGB outputs, but 430's are on the H & V outputs. Would there be any benefit in upgrading those as well (with a suitable sub of course).


Mike, I have an extra Marquee switcher which doesn't work quite right (power control problem, not video) which I could loan you if you wanted to look into fixes/upgrades for them.


--Bill


----------



## bblue

Mike, could you please comment on these issues?


In an earlier message detailing resistor changes on the vertical board, you state that later rev boards will have each of the six resistors listed piggybacked with a like type. On my board only R721,R821 & R921 are piggybacked -- the other three are not. Is this of any significance?


The resistors in question both on vertical and convergence boards are 'mickey mouse', yet they appear to be identical to every other resistor on the board. Are they really a different type while looking similar, or is that type of resistor simply a bad choice for use on the rails? (I believe you, I'm just curious as to the why)


On the convergence board details you mention there are 48 1.2 ohm resistors right near the power transistors that should be replaced also. On my board there are 24 1.2 ohm resistors (R168,169,170,171, 268,269,270,271, 368,369,370,371, 468,469,470,471, 568,569,570,571, 668,669,670,671. And evens in each hundreds number group, and odds in each number group are in parallel with each other (e.g. R168,R170 are paralleled, R169,R171 are as well, up the list). Is my board somehow different that earlier ones? And each of these 24 should be replaced with the same value, 1.2 ohms?


Thanks for the information you have been sharing. It certainly has been an eye opener!


--Bill


----------



## mp20748

bblue,

on the switcher issue: If you can, don't use it. If you use it have it upgraded with the later version chips, to include a few other components.


convergence board: There are 48 resistors total. 24 (if the later version board, 12 if the early boaard) are 1 ohm, and they would be double stacked. The other 24 are 1.2 ohm and they as well are double stacked and near the heatsink (power transistors). I've listed the replacement part number and where to get them on this thread.


----------



## mp20748

Starting next week we'll look at a fully done Marquee 8500LC. This Marquee will have a complete set of VDC rebuilds, to include all of the suggested tweaks, mods, maintenance and a few special tweaks







. Thanks to my friend James Bond (Bethesda MD), this display will be done using his Home Theater setup, and he's giving me permission to do an open inventation to anyone who'll like to attend. we'll also bring back and post some screen shots from this gathering. Actual date to be determined.


And we'll also debut my new Transcoder on this same projector, using a JVC D-VHS (HDTV) deck. But the primary source for the gathering will be a HTPC with a modified ATI 9700MP-1 card.


I've had a few request for when William Phelps will be back in our area, and if we can get enough interest we might be able to get him out around the time of the gathering or anytime soon after that. William is a high end setup/calibration expert, so he only does the very best in the technology. And he's Vidikron trained on the Marquee, so he has the proper qualifications for this projector, to include being one the few best on the Sony G90, plus he really knows and understand the critical technical stuff, as it relates to setup. He also does the high end lamp projectors, and he has some lamp clients in this area who praises him, and claims that after he had completed their projector, that they had noticed a huge difference in the image. Now, the only way I know to improve the displayed image on a lamp projector is to turn it off, they seem to look better that way to me


----------



## jcmccorm

"Modified 9700MP-1"?? Modified beyond having the MP-1 attached? Something new?


Cary


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jcmccorm_
> *"Modified 9700MP-1"?? Modified beyond having the MP-1 attached? Something new?
> 
> 
> Cary*



Cary,

I meant to say that the video card will be modified with the MP-1. So far the mod itself is the same.


Also, the screen shots will be of test patterns. I don't believe that a screen shot could properly represent image quality. I intend to show a few pics of lines and flares and such...


----------



## craigt

How about setting up an NEC XG series thread like this one?


Craig


----------



## laric

Hi,


and what about doing similar for sony 1292 (streaking issue







)


Anyway, wonderfull stuff mike.


--Patrice


----------



## bblue

but .. but .. but ..

Mike, on the (my) convergence board the 24 1.2 ohm resistors are already in parallel pairs, 2 for each 6 output transistor sets. There are no piggybacks, and the schematic shows the parallel pairs, each resistor with its own part number. So are you saying to replace each 1.2 with a 1.2 ohm 1/2 watt fusible version?


The 24 1 ohm resistors (which look like 12 1 ohm piggybacks) are also shown exactly that way in the schematic, as individual 1 ohm resistors with unique part numbers. Are you saying to replace each unique resistor (retaining piggybacks) with 1 ohm 1/2 watt fusible, or each piggyback pair with a single 1/2 ohm 1/2 watt fusible?


On the vertical board, there are six 1 ohm resistor in piggyback pairs on the + supply rail. The - supply rail has a corresponding single 1 ohm. This is exactly how the schematic shows it to be, including unique part numbers for each resistor in the piggyback pair. Are you suggesting that both rails be replaced with a single 1 ohm or single 1/2 ohm 1/2 watt fusible?


Are all of these replacements due to potentially flakey resistors? Or design/performance considerations?


I called MicroOhm and was told their FRN series was special order only and 4 weeks out with a 1000 item per value minimum. Are there other options? No one else I've asked has ever heard of them.


On the switcher, unfortunately I'm pretty much stuck with using it due to the number of inputs I have. You mentioned the chips 'and other components' -- is there any documentation that goes into details of what else to replace, or is that a subject of a future thread here, or can you detail it?


--Bill


----------



## mp20748

Bill,

I'm not sure why Electrohome stacked the resistors on the later boards. I've never liked the ones that's in there. Just let your projector warm up and hit them with a can of freeze spray. The single resistors will be effected to some degree, but the stacks will be stable. I was using another brand of resistors in this circuit that was .47 ohm. Tim Martin found the MicroOhms for me, and I've been using them since. Excellent resistor, very very stable. In fact, they are so stable that you could even use one rather than two.


It's been awhile since I seen that switcher, but if it has the CLC409 in it, you should replace them. You'll also have to make a few other changes but get me a diagram of the circuit and I'll get you through it.



Later on this thread, I'll post some patterns, and I'll show what happens when the electronics and the coils/magnets are properly tweaked and tuned. You'll see why it's important to have the electronics at peak as well as being able to work with the coils and magnets. The Marquee is very easy to setup, and it can be done by almost anyone. But we're going to look at it on another level.


Now, I'm a little low on my resistor stock, but I'm sure some of you have purchased the 1000 resistors for your one Marquee projector. So that we all can get up to speed, how about sharing or selling a few to those who don't have them as of yet!?


----------



## bblue

Mike, thanks for the clarification. So the bottom line is to match the net values with better resistors single or dual. Are the MicroOhms you like only the FRN series, or can you suggest more readily available substitutes? And where *do* you find 1/2 watt resistors only 4mm in length?


Unfortunately the switcher is one schematic I don't have, but will try to locate it.


Looking forward to the next installments!


--Bill


----------



## jlmclemore




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *Starting next week we'll look at a fully done Marquee 8500LC. This Marquee will have a complete set of VDC rebuilds, to include all of the suggested tweaks, mods, maintenance and a few special tweaks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Thanks to my friend James Bond (Bethesda MD), this display will be done using his Home Theater setup, and he's giving me permission to do an open inventation to anyone who'll like to attend.*



As the owner of an 8500 with wife permission to start building my basement theater within the next 3 months, I would LOVE to attend to actually see both the modded vid card as well as a tweaked Marquee in person.
























John


----------



## Donald W Howard

Hello


My order of 1000 1 ohm 1/4W FRN resistors arrived yesterday. I plan

to use 350 or so of them on my two Marquee PJs and my buddy's

Marquee. Total cost was $69.07. I am willing to sell the remaining 650

for 7 cents each plus package and shipping. They are loose bulk, not

on a tape or reel. PM me here or email at [email protected] 

if You are interested.


DH


----------



## Chris_Stephens

Fun Thread. I have a horrible dilemma !!!


While I can chime in on TONS of stuff on this thread I have to stay quiet cuz the changes I make and know how to make are worth money to me.


IT SUX !!!!!!!!!!!!


It really sux...


So while I would love to offer just loads of mods and changes and insight I can't. Im sorry.


One thing I do have to point out. In the replacement of the carbon comp resistors in the HVPS... These are carbon comp for a reason. A number of reasons. These really need to stay carbon comp. Look at the voltages across them. This is a carbon comp thing guys. BE CAREFUL.


----------



## Aksor

I recently aquired a Marquee 8000 and I noticed severe streaking from the Blue tube at 1024*768 resolution with absolutely no streaking on the other two tubes. The neckboards are all equipped with the H1100 op amp

and the two metal can transistors. There is no sign of any heat burn on the resistors and all of the solder joints look fine.


Form prev monitor repair experience this streaking was mostly due to bad coupling capacitors.


Any ideas are welcome.


Laz


----------



## Jay Wilson

Chris, Having seen your projector at CEDIA, I can agree...it sux that you can't chime in with us


----------



## sly




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Chris_Stephens_
> *
> 
> One thing I do have to point out. In the replacement of the carbon comp resistors in the HVPS... These are carbon comp for a reason. A number of reasons. These really need to stay carbon comp. Look at the voltages across them. This is a carbon comp thing guys. BE CAREFUL.*




I know the voltage.

The OX/OY Ceramic Composition

should be a good replacement.


From there spec.


"The OX/OY Series of fixed ceramic resistors are ideal for circuitry associated with surges, high peak power or high energy. They offer enhanced performance in *high voltage power supplies*, R-C snubber circuits, and inrush limiters. The OX/OY resistors can often replace carbon composition resistors which can be difficult to source. "



The OY has a 400V working voltage and a 20KV peak voltage

there is 2 in series giving the circuit 800V working

looking at my drawing there seems to be a cap with a voltage of 250V feeding it and the there is other caps that seem to be only good for 100V


So did I mis something???

or is there a error in my drawing??


The specs look very good for this part..


----------



## bblue




> Quote:
> Fun Thread. I have a horrible dilemma !!!
> 
> 
> While I can chime in on TONS of stuff on this thread I have to stay quiet cuz the changes I make and know how to make are worth money to me.



Chris, think of it this way. It's very unlikely that the folks here would represent a very high percentage of potential customers for you. And for the small percentage that might, only a handful of those might have the skills to do these things.


Unless a competitor of yours in the same city or surrounding area is also posting here it seems like you'd be pretty safe!


[Of course there may well be other points of view -- I'm just trying to coax you into sharing some 'secrets'! There's a lot of pretty sharp people here, and you would probably benefit from it as well.]


--Bill


----------



## mp20748

Laz,

Q13 is more likely your problem. It's one of the six RF power transistors that's mounted to the heat sink. You'll have to desolder the leads from the PC board and perform a transistor front to back test with a meter.


Chris,

thanks for stopping by, and please feel free to contribute whatever. I understand your dilemma, because I've struggled with the same thing with this thread -- I have a bag of tweaks myself










Our intent with this thread was to focus mostly on "maintenance" and "upgrades", but I would welcome anyone that wanted to add whatever they wanted. The only thing that we'll try to avoid is any mod or tweak that could create a safety issue. That's why we did not get into the HVPS section, as you seem to be familiar with the concern there.


----------



## James Bond




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jlmclemore_
> *As the owner of an 8500 with wife permission to start building my basement theater within the next 3 months, I would LOVE to attend to actually see both the modded vid card as well as a tweaked Marquee in person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John*



If you have to ask your wife's permission, you can't come over.


----------



## jlmclemore




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by James Bond_
> *If you have to ask your wife's permission, you can't come over.*



I didn't need permission to attend, Only permission to spend an excessive amount of money to build my theater. I've learned she can get little fussy when I forget to mention the "little" purchases I make.


----------



## sly

I was wondering if the fan tray can be removed from the top??


this is what I am going to try to do.

I have a 8000 on the ceiling. and it is not coming down. I got a 8500 to upgrade it. so I was going tr replace all the parts but leave the chaise hanging. it looks like I can slide out the CRTs one at a time.


After that, can I get the fan tray out ??

I would like to replace the fans.


or am I kidding my self..?


----------



## Aksor

Hi Mike


You mentioned as Q13 being the suspect, is Q13 part of the G1 drive amplifier. Where could one find this particular high frequency RF transistor as I came up emty handed when I contacted my local radio repair dealers.


They seem to carry all the other MRF transistor except for this one.


Laz


----------



## Donald W Howard

Hello


The FRN 1 ohm 1/4 watt resistors I offered earlier in this thread are

all gone. Five of our forum members bought them.


DH


----------



## mp20748

Laz,

Q13 is part of the final output stage. It's one of the four power transistors that are "a mirror cascode differential amplifier" (two complimentary cascode amps NPN/PNP).


These transistors were made by Motorola, the NPN (MRF548) may still be available, but the PNP (MRF549) is discontinued. Motorola sold off their existing lot, and they are very hard to come by.


I would suggest that you contact Tim Martin for a replacement board.


----------



## Aksor

Well it looks like Q13 is fine,


I desoldered the pins and did a transistor check base to emiter and base to collector 0.7V one way and open when reversed and emiter to colector open both ways


Could it be a leaky cap?


Laz


----------



## bblue

Sly, sure seems like it would be a lot easier to replace the whole thing intact. Don't you have 3 or 4 friends that could help? I would only consider the component replacement on the old chassis as a last resort.


I mounted the 9501LC here on one of the Chief motorized lift platforms. The cost of the Chief was something I agonized over for a while, but after installing the projector from the floor to its operating position by myself, then later dropping it down for some cleaning and returning it to operating position and to finding all physical settings intact, made me realize it was money well spent.


You might want to consider adding something like that if you take the chassis down, since no pj is forever.


--Bill


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Aksor_
> *Well it looks like Q13 is fine,
> 
> 
> I desoldered the pins and did a transistor check base to emiter and base to collector 0.7V one way and open when reversed and emiter to colector open both ways
> 
> 
> Could it be a leaky cap?
> 
> 
> Laz*



At this point I'd recommend that you replace that board. The problem could be any number of components on that board. And you'll have to be very careful, because a slip could take out the tube. There are both safety and protection circuits on that board, and they operate around that same differential circuit, and they have 'critical safety components' that are necessary for proper operation of that board.


----------



## leggwork

another source is Curt Palme. He has "new" reject neck boards that have good transistors on them for $10 each plus $10 shipping (when I bought them a few months ago)


cheers,

bruce


----------



## Aksor

Can anyone give me some readings of a good MRF549 transistor located on the neckboard.


I got a few neckboards and some of the transistors collector emitter reads as open and the same if I reverse the probes but some others read open in one direction and a high value the other direction.


The base emiter junction is 0.6V and the base collector junction reads 0.6V when forward biased is the only consitent reading i can get.


I know collector emiter should be open in both directions unless the transistor contains a diode between the collector and emiter terminals.


As I have no specs on the MRF549 its hard to tell what is good.


All of the readings were performed with a Fluke DMM on the diode check function.


Laz


----------



## sly

Well I took out my CRT's out of my 8000.

And the fans come out very easy. so I do not have to take the PJ down. the 2 things I have noticed is my CRT's show no wear whats so ever. I have a lot of time on them.

And none of the ones at work have ether. So I was thinking how come I have never burned the CRT's on any of the electrohomes over the years...

the closest thing was on one of the ECP 4500 we used along time ago I white window poped up for 1 or more days could have been a week no went in to the room and the PJ was not in standby and a window poped up.

and that only just left a hint of a mark that seems to go away after a few weeks.


The only thing I can think of is I run them fast the ones at work run only at hi refresh rates and at hi rez. 960x680x112Hz

or 1280x1024x76


my 8000 runs only 1920x1080x72Hz

and 1920x1080x60Hz interlace


could this be a factor???



The 2nd thing is the air direction the fans blows from the bottom of the PJ to the top. This works fine if the PJ is right side up but if it is on the ceiling would it not be better to revers the fans so the air goes from top to bottom aka (the air goes up). So it it not fighting the convection??


Or if I am to keep the air flow the same would a remote blower blowing into the PJ be the best. This has a lot of advantages one the noise but the best is I could put a air filter on the blower so my PJ never gets dusty.




Any thoughts on the matter??


----------



## mp20748

"The 2nd thing is the air direction the fans blows from the bottom of the PJ to the top. This works fine if the PJ is right side up but if it is on the ceiling would it not be better to revers the fans so the air goes from top to bottom aka (the air goes up). So it it not fighting the convection??"


Sly, I plan to cover the cooling system on the Marquee. You'll want to leave it as is, I'll explain later. You have the most advanced cooling system of any CRT projector manufactured. You'll see why the Marquee was the ONLY CRT projector that would handle very high temperature operating 24/7 environments, with only a neck board failure from time to time, and I mean very high temperature rooms, and this is where every other CRT porjector failed. Even the Sony 1292 with its 2000 fans.


We'll pick up on the "Maintenance" and "Upgrades" after the weekend gathering. I'll throw in a couple more nuggets, and I may reveal how to hot-rod this projector (but I don't recommend it). It's easy and it'll make the picture look brighter and punchier, BUT you'll have to see what it does to the video chain, and hopefully I'll have the scopes hooked up for this. The best way to improve on the performance of a Marquee 'IF' all is well with the electronics and tubes, is a proper setup and the input source is the most important factor. If there's a certain level of noise (hash) in the input source (processor), it will increase on it's own along the video chain. And no amount of caps or mods will correct on it, because it's a part of the signal and the bandwidth of the projector is such that it'll pass it along with the signal, because there are no signal filtering networks in these projectors. The goal should be to look for a cleaner processor, rather than looking for a miracle tweak or mod. I have a bag of mods and tweaks myself, but they'll only make a difference based on these four things: Source, cables, setup and the condition of the projector. I'll demo this on next Saturday with 'My' transcoder and a HTPC with 'MY' Mp-1 mod. We'll look at (clean) DVD and HDTV sources. The 8500LC at the gathering will be Special







...


The gathering next week (5-17-2003) will be in Chevy Chase Maryland, not Bethesda. It will be right off of 410 (east west highway). Shoot me an email if interested ([email protected]). We plan to start around 3PM.


We have much more to come -- stay tuned!


----------



## Aksor

Here it goes. I replaced Q13 on the neckboard with a new transistor.

streaking problem seems to be gone but for some reason when I turn on the projector with no input connected I can see the red and green raster but no the blue.


If I bring up a test pattern the blue pattern is visible on the screen



I switched neckboards between the green and blue the same thing. I then measured the G2 voltage on both the green and blue neckboards and the blue looks like its 100v less than the green.




Could this be a HV Power supply issue as it I could see a raster before I screwed with q13 except I had really bad streaking.


I need some of your expertise in this issue


Laz


----------



## Aksor

I just did another check it looks like a G2 issue I coonected the green G2 to the blue neckboard and the Blue G2 to the green neckboard and I can now see a raster on the blue tube that is the same intensity as the red.


I measured the red G2 and its is the same as the green tube.


Is the G2 level derived from a voltage divider inside the HV power suply?


Maybe I have a bad resistor


Laz


----------



## jcmccorm

You know that G2 is adjustable (per tube) in the service menu right?


Cary


----------



## mp20748

Laz,

the G2 is on the HVPS, they are all separate circuits for each CRT, but they get their main supply from the potted section of the HVPS.


There are several recommendations that I will make to correct some problems on these boards, and there's a point where I'll recommend that you replace the board (I've already done that on this thread). For the sake of safety and not having part in you damaging your high voltage supply, neck board or your CRT, I'll rather stick to my initial recommendation (."At this point I'd recommend that you replace that board.").


That board has many "Critical Safety Components" on it, and they play a very important part for tube protection and X-radiation safety. I've mentioned this earlier on this thread, and I've also mentioned that we should not get into these circuits on this thread.


----------



## Tim in Phoenix




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sly_
> *
> 
> The 2nd thing is the air direction the fans blows from the bottom of the PJ to the top. This works fine if the PJ is right side up but if it is on the ceiling would it not be better to revers the fans so the air goes from top to bottom aka (the air goes up). So it it not fighting the convection??
> 
> 
> Or if I am to keep the air flow the same would a remote blower blowing into the PJ be the best. This has a lot of advantages one the noise but the best is I could put a air filter on the blower so my PJ never gets dusty.
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on the matter??*



Sly


I asked the Electrohome engineers the same question and they said to leave it alone, the fan pressure far exceeds convection. Their advice makes sense because that three-fan plenum puts pressure to the HDM and focus boards and to the three tube covers and neck boards also. In tests we did here at E-Tech we found that the two LVPS fans contribute most of the noise and it is due to the fan motor bearings resonating the sheet metal; our Fan Noise Mod handles that very effectively with no change in fan voltage or air flow; a similar mod to the plenum give no detectible improvement, much to our surprise.


----------



## Aksor

Problem solved


It was due to the G2 on the red and green drive were set to 80% and the blue was at 40%.


If i do a master reset should the RBG G2's set to the default or are they independent of the reset.


Just a quick one when all is set properly one should see no raster or image on the screen with no input connected right?


sorry for all these questions but this is my first CRT projector experience.


Mike sorry to be a pain.


Laz


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Aksor_
> *Problem solved
> 
> 
> 
> If i do a master reset should the RBG G2's set to the default or are they independent of the reset.
> 
> 
> Just a quick one when all is set properly one should see no raster or image on the screen with no input connected right?
> 
> 
> sorry for all these questions but this is my first CRT projector experience.
> 
> 
> Mike sorry to be a pain.
> 
> 
> Laz*



Yep, always do a full reset. No problem with the questions. Just trying to keep you from doing harm to yourself or your projector.


----------



## Tim in Phoenix

Guys!


Having to set G2 to 80 means game over for such tubes; they are nearly gone; have a look here and be sure to check the filament voltage across P14: http://www.etechvideo.com/techtip1.htm


----------



## Jaehong Lee

Hi !


Mr. Mike Parker.



I have read this tread with greatest interest.


I have one question in favor of you.


To enhance detailness in 9500LC, I think the video switcher ic(SD5401)

should be tweaked .

high frequncy signal is losing in this part, I guess.


When i bypass this circuit, the detailness is much improved.


But i can get OSDif bypassed.


I need your advice on this.


In Seoul, Korea, we have 5 HDTV (ATSC channel).

so most of my Source is HD 1080I.


----------



## mp20748

Jaehong Lee,

you're right, and that is the weakest link in the video chain. As you mentioned, that switch selects between the internal video and the main video source. The other sections of that switch is for the DC restore circuits. The modification for this is not easy...


This is one of the five tweaks to that board that I have in my personal (private) bag of tricks.


----------



## sly

well I did it after looking at the air flow

it seems to have 150CFM of fans air is sucked in the sides top and over card cage.

into a air box where is is blown over the 3 CRT's and the 2 deflection cards.


So I got a 300CFM blower at Home Depot that you can use a dimer on if you want to. Very quiet. Ran a 4in tube.

into the air box and added some baffles to even out the air flow. added a air filter to the blower ( the main reason for this)


The new air flow it in is the same for the CRT's and the 2 deflection cards but now it also feeds the card cage

so the air is now reversed for the card cage.

so far I seem to have a lot more air flow with a lot less sound..


I will post some pics later


----------



## jcmccorm

Sly, yes, please post pics and a description. Thanks!


Cary


----------



## joekjtam

Mike:

I have the blanking out on bright scenes problem. what is the cure.

I also have the problem of vertical squeeze mod, can someone please help to shown pictures of the resistor to be changed.


My Marquee is of build Aug 1994.

Regard.


----------



## Jay Wilson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *The gathering next week (5-17-2003) will be in Chevy Chase Maryland, not Bethesda. It will be right off of 410 (east west highway). Shoot me an email if interested ([email protected]). We plan to start around 3PM.*



Hey Cary, Don't you wish we were closer to Maryland? Be a hell of a road trip, huh?


----------



## jcmccorm

Hmmmm...Lemme look at the map....


Cary


----------



## mp20748

If your projector blooms and blanks out on bright scenes, you'll need to have your neck boards upgraded. That involves about 10 components on each board, and you should have all three done at once.


Guys,

I'll do what I can to make it as if you were there. This thread will greatly pick up after the gathering. Plus, wait till I get back from my visit with TIM later this month, we're gonna make you very proud to own a Marquee


----------



## sly

I thought I would share a convergence trick I use.


if you want to get that last bit out of the projector

converge on video and use your own patterns.



I been doing this so long I forgot their was a other way










you will be amazed at how much the image can vary from video to the internal patterns. And it is more so at the higher resolutions.


I use a 1 pixel crosshatch that I have made. It also has some markers on the edge if I am going to match it to a another projector.


----------



## jcmccorm

Don't be shy sly. Post your pattern!


I wouldn't expect that the external source would be different. It uses the external sync signals so the deflection works exactly the same. It must be a difference between the delays in the external RGB vs the delays in the internal RGB. I wouldn't have thought it would be that different but I'll sure try an external pattern.


Cary


----------



## sly

I don't have them here and some were at a strange rez.

I have remade them many times on the spot.

just draw some lines



And yes there is the delays in the Red vs Green vs Blue


But also the lines are finer so it is easer to do.

The bult in lines are kinda thick.


----------



## jcmccorm

Ok, thanks sly. I'll just do it in Paint or something. I didn't think of the resolution really making a difference but if we want to keep it at 1 pixel thickness in both X and Y then I should probably match my desktop rez (1440x720).


Cary


----------



## Mongo

There is a guy who sells some great hirez test patterns, who's stuff I reviewed on Techweenies.com. I forget offhand the name, but there is a link on the home theater page.


If I remember right, he has 640x480 patterns available for free, but you have to pay a small sum for the higher resolution ones.


Mongo


----------



## sly

 http://www.fi.muni.cz/~kas/screentest/ 


here is a free one with source..


----------



## bblue

Sly, do you happen to have an i386 executable in another form than an RPM package?


Here's one that I find useful periodically.


--Bill

 

nokia.zip 444.0712890625k . file

 

nokia.zip 444.0712890625k . file


----------



## bblue

And here's another.


--Bill

 

align.zip 50.2705078125k . file

 

align.zip 50.2705078125k . file


----------



## elche

How bout used or rebuilt tubes for a marquee 8500, non-LC. I need a green one badly. Where's a good place to look? I did a google search and found nothing.

Marc


----------



## Jay Wilson

VDC. Video Display Corporation. Search on here and you'll get names/number/etc. $495 plus $100 core charge (refunded when you send yours back) plus freight. These are for a rebuilt which are as good as new!


----------



## mp20748

The gathering went as planned, but we cancelled showing the transcanner. That will still happen, and I'll make that happen in another week or so (next gathering), because I'm really excited about this project. Plus some who wanted to attend could not make it, so we're doing it again.



The projector setup and viewing was hindered by video card failure, but we later (had to go buy another card, etc - the downsides of PC's







). Once we got that back up, it went rather well. We did an overview of the technology, and I had a chance to show what to look for when a projector is properly setup (mini seminar), and hopefully we'll do this again with screen shots in a couple of weeks.


The 8500LC though it was not fully setup, was a sight to see once the card problem was fixed. I wanted to show how bright, clean and sharp this projector would get before clipping. I also wanted to show that there was NO noise in the image. The image was displayed with the HTPC as source, it had my MP-1 mod, but it was in unity gain (700mv output). I had bought my scope to show what the IRE window should look like with proper scoped calibrations, and I also wanted to show that the projector was performing on a true 700mv signal (not boosted), I'll have to show this at the next gathering.


Since I've announced that I'll no longer be doing tours or projector "calibrations", I've been swamped with emails. I'll still do a few now and then, but would rather focus my time on other things. But some of you are persistant, so I'll be making a trip to New York in late June or early July. Contact me if you'd want me to stop by, if you live anywhere between Virginia and New York. I may even make a couple of trips and extend into August, but I'll mostly be concerned with showing you how to maintain your own projector, and making sure that your projector is performing properly before you throw money into ("calibration"). I've been asked many times if the projector should have been evaluated before calibration, and my answer is absolutely, because a perfectly working projector could have a few glitches when it arrives to it's final location. And this happens with the brand new projectors, so it's very important to do a good eval. first.


The Marquee is easy to setup, and I've been recommending that the owner install and do the preliminary setup themselves to become familiar with the technology (if HT is a hobby). During this process, the owner would also discover if there's any problems with the projector, and could seek the help from the forum or others here on the forum to correct any problems before a "calibration" is scheduled. This is something that I have promised on this thread, so we'll also be covering setup and calibrations, but only from a perspective of making sure the owner of the projector makes the right decision before seeking a "calibration" or "setup". This may sound unusual, but I'm also responding to many emails that I've received on this matter. I may not be an "expert" on this, but with over 30 years experience in electronics and over 20 years experience with CRT projectors, to include all aspects (stacks, simulators, video walls, immersive, etc.) of display setups. So yes, I do think I'm qualified to say something on this matter.


----------



## Jay Wilson

Mike, Whether you think you're an expert or not, I'm sure that I'm not the only one who's still all ears! I think it's safe to say we think your qualified on the matter as well!


----------



## elche

Mike,

As someone who attended your event on Saturday, I can attest to it's usefullness. It reassured me that it's worth it to persist through this process because, as "imperfect" as you say the set up was, I thought the picture was mindblowing. I didn't have the slightest longing for a simple plasma screen after I saw what that machine could do.

Marc


----------



## Mongo

I also would like to thank Mike for a very informative and enjoyable afternoon. My friend Jack and myself both got a lot out of the presentation and it made us both want to rush home and give our PJ's a good viewing.


For those who have not yet me thim, Mike Parker is a really good guy who is full of interesting information and is very generous in sharing it with others who share the CRT hobby.


----------



## JSDDS

I'd also like to thank Mike Parker for sharing his wealth of knowlege! I greatly enjoyed the Saturday gathering.


JSDDS


----------



## elche

Does anyone know a source, or good used parts seller/list, where I might find a green tube for the 8500. A good used tube, or I take it a rebuilt from VDC are my options, I take it?

Marc


----------



## mp20748

Here we go. Now for those of you who like bending the rules, and putting 8 cylinder engines on motorcycles, 200 watt amps on 6" speakers, etc., etc.


Here is how you "Hot Rod" the video chain. As you may already know, with the exception of three coupling caps, the entire video chain in the Marquee is directly coupled (DC) from the BNC connectors to the CRT's.


The front end of the VIM is where you'd find these coupling caps. There is one on each input (RGB). Direct coupling is better, but it has it's drawbacks, and that is that if the DC offset is off on the source (input) device, it will effect the offset in the video chain of the projector. When the DC level (offset) is off, you'll then effect the blanking level (this is the reference for black). And from there you can forget about the great black level feature of this CRT.


So what they do is add these coupling caps and make the front end AC coupled, meaning that the caps will block DC, and only pass the AC signal. But it's not that simple, because once you AC couple you'll have to get and keep the DC offset at zero, so they add a circuit called a "DC Restore Circuit" and this circuit would keep the video front end DC level to zero, and if the following circuits are designed properly, the entire video chain would have a balanced (0) DC level. Therefore with proper DC level, we will have proper blanking level and black levels. So our goal is to not effect this feature in our quest to improve the projector.


To enhance the performance of the video chain, change the value of these three caps (C33, C49 and C65). The value is 470N or 0.47 ufd. If you increase the capacitance the the picture would get hotter, but don't use electrolytics (especially polarized electrolytics). If you use electrolytics, you'll force DC reference into the video chain whenever there is bright scenes. The DC restore circuit will correct this, but it may not do it fast enough because of longer charge on the higher value cap. For instance, if you double the value of the coupling caps (0.94 ufd), you'll may also be putting the circuit outside of the speed of the DC restore circuit, because there is also a cap in that circuit that holds a charge. So what you may experience by doing one thing, you would more likely be effecting something else. So the "hot rod" effect of changing out C33, C49 and C65 would not be a miracle improvement, though this works well in high end audio (there's no need for DC restoration). It could be a problem in video.


I'm of the opinion that you cannot drastically improve on the performance of a Marquee, and that's mostly based on the fact that the video chain has a very wide bandwidth, and the components that were used (upgrades) were very high performance devices. Still there's room for improvements, but I would think that the end results would be more subtle than drastic.


The video chain in a marquee is very well designed. And this means of Hot rodding could cause effect to the video chains DC offset level. You'll experience a brighter and falsely more dynamic picture, but pay close attention to the black bars from the test disk.


Now, here's a nugget. You can improve on the video chain, by replacing that cap with the same value (0.47 ufd), go from a 50vdc to a very high quailty 100 vdc poly. The change would be subtle, but noticeable if you're using a high quality input source.


----------



## jcmccorm

Will do! Thanks Mike! Any more while you're in a givin' mood?










Cary


----------



## jcmccorm

Hey Mike, it looks like the video chain is also AC coupled on the neck board. Before hitting the tube's cathode pin, video goes through both a .1uf 50V and a 10uf 16V. Has anyone ever looked at upgrading these?


Cary


----------



## BLS

You guys are making me jealous! Before you go into retirement Mike, I wonder how many CRT enthusiasts here on the west coast would chip in to bring you here for one of your demos/seminars.


I would be more than willing to offer my home theater as the host site.


I have an 8000 now with an 8500LC ultra on the way. I'm sure we would make it worth your while and enjoyable.


Brad


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jcmccorm_
> *Hey Mike, it looks like the video chain is also AC coupled on the neck board. Before hitting the tube's cathode pin, video goes through both a .1uf 50V and a 10uf 16V. Has anyone ever looked at upgrading these?
> 
> 
> Cary*



Actually, if you look at the diagram, there are two output sections on that card (dual complimentary cascode output amplifiers) Q13 and Q14 are connected 'directly' to G1 on the CRT, while Q1 and Q22 are connected to the cathode of the CRT. They called this dual output a "mirror cascode amplifier" that drives both the cathode and G1 elements of the CRT's.



They put the I-sense and over current protect in the cathode drive (Q1/Q22) of the CRT, there we find the two caps that are a part of the "protect circuit", and that's why they are inclosed in the dashed lines on the diagram, meaning that it's a critical safety area ("all components within boundary are not service replaceable in the field")


That circuit -- I leave alone.


----------



## Jay Wilson

Mike. I like nuggets







On the coupling caps, is there a recommendation as to type to replace with? tants, poly, etc...or is anything (of quality) as long as it's not an electrolytic sufficient?


----------



## jcmccorm

Mike,

That I-SENS and OVER-I circuit on the neck board is pretty wierd to say the least. It looks like they are actually depending upon the resistance (ESR) of those capacitors to detect an over-current situation for the beam current. Replacing these would indeed be tricky. (and I guess, not advisable)


Cary


EDIT: But they *are* AC coupling caps in the video chain and therefore will be forever nagging me....


----------



## joekjtam

Mike, I am able to get hold of clc449 and max4224, but the clc449 is 4 times the price of max4224, is it worth while to use clc449


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jcmccorm_
> *
> 
> 
> EDIT: But they *are* AC coupling caps in the video chain and therefore will be forever nagging me....
> 
> *



That makes two of us. And I've thought about playing around with that circuit, but the thought of damaging a tube or crushing the X-Radiation protection circuit is my main concern.


If only a better quality cap could be used (same value), because the biggest problem I'm having with this is the size of the caps... One day we should try this, but first I'd have to either get my radiation meter fixed or get another one.


---


joekjtam,

I don't know, I'm still using both CLC449's and MAX4224's. But if there's no noticeable difference between the two, I'd say go with the Max, because it's cheaper and the CLC449 is no longer being manufactured (maybe that's why it cost so much more).


----------



## joekjtam

mike

thanks for your reply,

I have the problem of blank on bright scene and i am repairing my marquee 8000. will you have a post regarding this shortly.


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by joekjtam_
> *mike
> 
> thanks for your reply,
> 
> I have the problem of blank on bright scene and i am repairing my marquee 8000. will you have a post regarding this shortly.*



This problem was covered on this thread (much earlier). You have the very early version neck boards that were prone to this problem. The fix is to have the neck boards upgraded, or just replace them. You'll also need to replace U2, it should be a CLC409, you'll need to get that guy out of there and put in a CLC449 or MAX4224.


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jay Wilson_
> *Mike. I like nuggets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the coupling caps, is there a recommendation as to type to replace with? tants, poly, etc...or is anything (of quality) as long as it's not an electrolytic sufficient?*



I'm presently using a Digikey part number: P4671-ND (0.47 mfd 50vdc metal film caps).


----------



## aspec2

Joekjtam


I am looking for some CLC449's. Where can you get them and how many/price do you have to purchase?


Walt


----------



## joekjtam

Mike,

I have read through the entire thread, you have advise that there is about 10 components that need to be changed to have the blank on bright scene to be cured. I do not have a comprenhensive idea of the 10 changes. Do you mean that by changing the clc409 to max 4224 will cure the problem.



Aspec

I travel to China Shumshen freqently and found that one or two of the ic company is still stocking the clc449. They are quite costy and is around US20 each. No limit on the nos. that need to be purchased but the price will drop when the quantity is large.


----------



## Jay Wilson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *I'm presently using a Digikey part number: P4671-ND (0.47 mfd 50vdc metal film caps).*



Thanks Mike!


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by joekjtam_
> *..........
> 
> 
> I do not have a comprenhensive idea of the 10 changes. Do you mean that by changing the clc409 to max 4224 will cure the problem.
> 
> *



I did not provide a comprehensive procedure for the neck board upgrade. The reason is because the repair involves the "protect circuit", and much care and consideration should be giving to servicing this circuit, therefore I don't post mods or fixes for any circuit that's deals with "safety" or "protection" - I would suggest that you replace the board.


The MAX4224 will work in place of the CLC409 on the neck boards.


------



Concerning the chip upgrades...


This week I had contacted the manufacturer (National Semiconductor) of the LMH6702. That chip is supposed to be a direct replacement for the CLC449 (Comlinear) that were used in the Marquees, and is now discontinued.


IT WILL NOT FUNCTION PROPERLY IN THE VIM -- Do not use!


After trying this chip I had experienced distortion when text was being displayed, also it gave an enhanced brightness, which created a strange bloom or clipping.


I called and emailed their tech support, and was told to also send an email. I later received a return call from one of the application engineers. We discussed the problem that I was experiencing with the chip. I had also told him that I duplicated the same problem on a test board. The engineer told me that he would contact the designers of the chip and would also test it himself... Later in the week I got a call from the engineer informing me that he was also able to duplicate a simular problem with the LMH6702. His findings were that the chip was having a "parasitic Oscillation" In other words it was doing its own thing. We discussed a fix or cure for it, and he suggested that I modify the circuit with resistors and such. I told him that the chip is broke, it has a problem that needs attention, and why should a total redesign of the circuit be needed for an "exact replacement" chip. His response was that it works well in most applications, and that it had passed all of their test, however it does have this minor distortion issue.


I simply repeated that the chip is bad, and it should be pulled from distribution. So just in case you see this chip (LMH6702) as a direct replacement - it ain't!


Now concerning the CLC449, he had also informed me that it had a clipping problem, and that if it's used in a circuit, that circuit should as well be modified to correct a bandwidth problem they later found with the chip










The Max4224 works well on all neck boards, but MAY not work properly in some versions of the VIMs (confirmed). I'll have to wait and check this further, but I have several other chips on order that I'll be testing. Plus, the engineer gave me a nugget on how to make these chips work when they won't directly cross. I just would not try it on the LMH6702 because that chip is broke, they can talk all the technical babble they want, it's still broke, and if you can't remove the top off the chip and repair it, it should not be used - period.


I have a very clean and excellent performing chip that I'm testing. After I check out the ones on order I'll post back on this...


----------



## Donald W Howard

Hi Brian


Here it is!


DH


----------



## Mongo

I was fortunate enough to have Mike Parker himself come to my home this past weekend and spend some time tweaking my projector. I've met Mike before and he is a heck of a nice guy as well as someone who knows Marquee's inside and out.


He was able to get my Marquee 8110+ sharper and clearer that I have ever seen it before. Matter of fact, it is so good now that I need one of his mods to get rid of some of the grunge left in the source-end of my system.


Thanks again Mike for helping me out!


Mongo


----------



## Joseph

Mongo, do you realize how much envy your post is generating?







Congrats on the newfound picture quality - I wish we could all do so well!


----------



## Aksor

I replaced all 6 H1110 op amps on my VIM with the Maxim Max4224and the 3 H1110 on my neckboards.


After I turned on the projector the raster was full of video noise interference. So I removed the Max4224 from the neckboards and put the H1110 back and the noise problem is gone.


Question for Mike. I seem to have a vertical line down the middle of my raster that is a touch brighter than the raster background with no input signal present on all 3 tubes.


If i bring up an internal test pattern the line is gone. Is this normal or should I be concerned about it.


Laz


----------



## joekjtam

Mike


I experience similar problem of large background interference when i change the H1100 at the neck board to MAX4224, but the picture is sharper. What is the final replacement of the ic for the vim and the neckboard please.


----------



## mp20748

Guys,

I've used the Max4224 in a several neck boards with no incidence. I've notice a problem when used on a VIM, but not all of the VIM's that I've used them in. I have received a different chip in to try out in the next day or so. I'll post back the results after testing.


The MAX4224 is a better chip, and the problem (noise) that you've experienced can be correctable by changing the value of the feedback resistors to taylor the bandwidth of the chip, and changing the bypass caps. It can be done, but I'll rather rule out other chips first before we start modifying the circuit. But as was stated, changing that chip will make a difference. But not in all cases.


------


The Transcoder is ready for testing






































































!!!!!!


----------



## Joseph

BUMP.


----------



## mp20748

Transcoder:

I was hoping to test it today on a Motorola HDTV box, but that has been put on hold, maybe this weekend. I'm also waiting to send a test unit off to Michigan for evaluation, but backordered parts have delayed that, but that will happen next week.


So far, only one person other than myself has seen the unit in action here at my house on a D-JVC deck. I feel I've achieved my goal with this unit, and was able to overcome the common transcoder problems (black level, dark image, weak colors, etc.). And as an added bonus, it also has the Clarity performance of the MP-1 mod.


We'll be getting back to that "special" 8500LC that was at the gathering once the owner of the projector gets back from vacation. I'll continue where we left off and will have the transcoder there.


-------


Marquee:

I'm still testing the new chip, but have been very busy with some other issues, as we (my wife and I) are getting ready for court to file against a roofing company that improperly installed a roof 9 years ago that has caused severe structural (hidden) damage to our home. The good news on this is that the state has made them accept responsibility, so that eliminates who's at fault. It's amazing of what could happen from just a water leak. Much thanks to the help of Mark Haflich and Steve Bruzonsky for their legal advice, and to Dave R. for professional insurance insight. The support and resources from some forum members has been awesome!


So, I'll be in and out, around and about, but we will continue...


----------



## aspec2

Mike


Are you sure the MAX 4224 is a faster chip than the H1100? I can't find the specs on the 1100 but I seem to remember that it was 800mhz. The MAX is a 600mhz chip. Am I wrong?


I know I had steaking issues with a 409 on the green tube and an 1100 on the vim. When the 409 was replaced with a 449, the streaking went away. This leads me to believe that one must have the fastest opamp at the end of the video chain or the same all the way through.


Walt


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by aspec2_
> *Mike
> 
> 
> Are you sure the MAX 4224 is a faster chip than the H1100? I can't find the specs on the 1100 but I seem to remember that it was 800mhz. The MAX is a 600mhz chip. Am I wrong?
> 
> 
> I know I had steaking issues with a 409 on the green tube and an 1100 on the vim. When the 409 was replaced with a 449, the streaking went away. This leads me to believe that one must have the fastest opamp at the end of the video chain or the same all the way through.
> 
> 
> Walt*



The Max4224 is 600Mhz (-3db). The H1100 is 850Mhz (-3db) the CLC409 is 350Mhz (-3db).


Considering the CLC409's bandwidth (350Mhz), that should be more than required for the 120Mhz bandwidth of the projector, but somehow it wasn't. The H1100 (Harris HFA1100) is 850Mhz, but they switched to the CLC449 (1,2Ghz), and I asked about this change, and was told that the H1100 had a high frequency roll-off at certain high scan rates.


The Max4224 was a suggested cross or replacement, and so was the LMH6702 (720Mhz) that was supposed to be a direct replacement for the CLC449 (discontinued comlinear), but it's not. And why would they think that a 720Mhz chip is a direct replacement for a 1.2 Ghz chip










I'm starting to look at this spec (Mhz/Ghz) thing as hype. Because none of the above really makes any technical sense...


So the specs seems to mean little of nothing


----------



## bblue




> Quote:
> I'm starting to look at this spec (Mhz/Ghz) thing as hype. Because none of the above really makes any technical sense...



Interesting coincidence here... Just yesterday I pulled the complete specifications package for several IC's including both the National CLC chips and one I have been looking at as a possible replacement instead of the MAX4224, the Burr-Brown OPA658 (not the 685). The OPA658 loosely would be considered a 900Mhz chip.


When I looked at the operational parameters and charts, several things stood out. All the chips -3 db down point varies dramatically with gain, load (total load as well as whether it is purely resistive or has a capacitive component to it) as well as voltage output. Also, during rolloff it may be smooth and gradual or wavey with an irregular phase response relative to frequency. The various manufacturers do not always list the same parameters and graphs in the specs, so it's very difficult to compare apples to apples on paper.


Gain Flatness might be the most significant parameter, with the CLC449 at a max of .1 db from DC to 200Mhz, the CLC409 at 0 db from DC to 75Mhz (peaking) or .2 db from DC to 125Mhz (rolloff). The OPA658 clocks in at .1 db 0 to 135Mhz, so it may not really be a viable candidate in some circuits.


The CLC449 has that 1.1Ghz bandwidth at unity gain, non-inverting, with an output of .2v p-p. At 2v p-p it is only 500Mhz. With more gain, it drops even lower. The CLC409 shows its 350Mhz bandwidth only at 2v p-p.


The OPA658 doesn't have any information that plots bandwidth to output voltage but it does show the variance with gain. At +1 db of gain you have the 900Mhz. But at +2 db gain you're down to 680Mhz and at +5 down to 370Mhz.


The MAX4224 has basic specs that look similar to the OPA658, but it has a gain flatness of .1 db from DC to 300Mhz which probably makes it the best overall candidate.


I haven't looked at each location where CLC449's are used to determine in each case what the gain, output voltage and load might be, but I'd bet it's not consistent. And that just means you have to look at exactly what the parameters are for each circuit needing a sub to determine initially which part might be the best candidate -- not just the generic quoted bandwidth.


I Hope this is helpful. The only reason I started all this was because I needed a 449 sub in an 8 pin dip package for the loop-through switcher input boards. Only the Burr-Brown part seems to be available in that configuration.


--Bill


----------



## mp20748

Bill,

the real strange one in the bunch is the LMH6702. This is a newly released chip from National Semiconductor. It is their direct replacement for the discontinued CLC449. I've waited 8 months for this chip to become available, and the minute I put it into service, I noticed that it was different. It produced a tad brighter image. I thought that maybe that was a plus, but when looking at the signal on a scope (20mhz). It was also oscillating (parasitic). I thought I was doing something wrong, so I tested the chip stand-alone -- less, but still some oscillation. So at this point I thought to call National and speak to an application engineer.


First I was surpised that he was totally unaware of this problem, and he wanted to make sure I was using a reasonable feedback resistor value, and grounding and bypass was also in order. We both agreed that my circuit was adequate. Now, why was I experiencing this problem










The application engineer said that he would look into the matter, and would also inform the designer of the chip. A couple of days later I got a call from the application engineer informing me that they were also able to duplicate the same thing that I was seeing, but not as bad. I could not believe that this chip failed a basic bench test. I asked if there was going to be a replacement or recall for the chip, he said no, because the designer (or actual manufacturer) of the chip claims that they could get it to work in their lab in a "more specific test" come on, it's an opamp, what test where they doing that could have possibly giving them these very impressive specs without them seeing the chip oscillate. In my opinion the chip is defective, but they say that I should try a redesign of the circuit, or should I say that they suggest to try and change several components around the chip to get it to work properly. This makes no sense to me, It's real simple, the chip is defective, period.


The manufacturer of this chip (LMH6702) should have those involved in the making and testing of this chip take a drug test.


----------



## sly

Yea op-amps can be fickle at fast speeds.


have you looked at the slew rate of the chips

I find this to be a more useful number..

but how sensitive the chip is to output load is the real test.


The load will change from capacitance to inductive as you sweep the spectrum and then there is the resonances too.


Way back everyone in the computer world moved away from them and had the amps integrated into DAC


The circuit around the chip affects it so much. Just changing a brand of a resistor or cap can change things.

It is a manufacturing nightmare.


Mike it sounds like the LMH6702 might just be a lot faster?? What kind of changes do they want?



As for the spec (Mhz/Ghz) thing as hype

I would say yes it is..

for a 1Gig chip they will feed it a 1 GiG sine-wave

with the chip configured with NO FEEDBACK!!

and if they get some of that sine wave out -3dB

it is called a 1Gig chip ( I call it a attenuator)



I just looked at the spec for the Max part

I think my Gamma circuit has less ringing their test jig has looking at there plot..


----------



## bblue

Mike, on that 6702 -- I've looked at its specs before and reviewed them again just now. I'm not particularly impressed by it especially with the gain flatness only out to 120Mhz, and it shows roll off well into the passband at every gain except +1. But it does have a killer slew rate of 3100 v/msec which is close to double all the others, though I'm not sure of the impact of that in this application.


I agree with you with your assessment of the chip -- it does seem to be broken, or at least mis-specified. I ran into to something similar a few years back with some wideband audio IC's where supposedly identically spec'd chips from two different manufacturers were behaving quite differently in the circuit. One was very quiet but didn't sound all that great, while the other sounded much better but had a really high noise floor, to the point of unusability. Noise was spec'd identically by the manufacturers.


It turned out that the reason for the high noise on the one brand was due to out of band oscillation which required a small compensation rc network in the feedback loop to keep it stable. Doesn't sound quite pin-for-pin compatible, does it? Well we finally learned that the spec sheets were in error and had (accidentally) omitted the need for additional external compensation. The chips were operating as intended but the docs were wrong. Sounds a bit familiar...


--Bill


----------



## mp20748

Sly,

they (national) claims that the LMH6702 is a direct replacement for the CLC449. Compare the specs, how could it possible be a direct replacement. Plus it doesn't work.


Yes, op amps are very finicky, and the best replacement for the CLC449 would probably need to have a few components on the board changed. But let me assure you that the LMH6702 would not be a good candidate for this. This chip is just right on the edge of oscillating, and it seems to me that if it fails a basic bench model test, it'll definately fail a populated board test, where the chip would have to behave itself in a multi-signal noise bed. I know of and have used and tested much faster chips than the 6702, and none of them sheads tears during testing, some may need the feedback resistor values changed, or a more precise bypass cap, but none has done what the 6702 does.


Aside from the parasitic oscillation, it'll actually cause distortion of lines and bleeding of text in the video image (stuff I've never seen an op amp do).


Bill,

I think they made a mistake somewhere with this chip. It may be the wrong specs that applies to another chip, or maybe a mistake in design. I just hate it when they make the claim that it's a "Direct Replacement"...


Anyway, as you guys may already know, I'm already ahead of this, and do have a very good replacement..


----------



## jcmccorm

...and the winner is? ...










Cary


----------



## Pocatello

Mike,


Is there another thread here at AVS about your component to RGBHV transcoder?


Or is this the best thread to learn about that new item?


----------



## joekjtam

Mike


I have changed the neckboard ic from h1100 to max4224 but noise at background occures. I have also purchased 3 nos. of CLC 449. Will the replacement completely removed my video noise problem and improve the image or is it better to change back to h1100.


regards


----------



## mp20748

Joekjtam,

I've heard of this problem before, but I've yet to see it myself. I really want to see it because I'm sure I can make it go away without much hassle. If you have the CLC449's they will work, and would be better than the H1100's -- so go with the CLC449's.


Pocatello,

the transcoder is ready for testing, but I've been waiting on a few components that should arrive tomorrow, and then I will finish a duplicate of the unit I have. Once that's done the duplicate will be sent out for evaluation. And yes, that's when the new thread will start.


Cary,

I'm working on a Mike Parker modified VIM. It'll have that chip on it...


----------



## bblue

Mike,


I've been trying out one of the Marquee Switcher output cards that I changed from the CLC409 chips to MAX4224's. I have another to use as a baseline which has H1100's in it.


With the MAX4224's the picture is a bit sharper but it almost seems as though the output level is higher. The black level moves up a bit to low grey and the whites crush on things like certain facial reflections (which look like shiny skin), objects that reflect, etc. All detail above a certain level is just gone, however this crushing level is much lower than white overdrive on the projector and isn't corrected by lowering contrast. I'd say the 4224's have more gain than the others, but I don't think just gain would fully account for what I'm seeing. The card with the H1100's is a little softer but has no crushing at all.


When you changed to 4224's did you have to make any circuit changes at all? This is an extremely simple circuit, two bypass caps and a series resistor on each rail, 75 ohm to ground input, 75 ohm in series on output, and feedback consisting of one 120 ohm from output to inverting input, and a 120 ohm from that junction to ground. That's it. I added an external buffer amp to drive the cable to the pj just in case it was a current or load issue, but it had no effect on the visuals. This is the only active stage in the switcher for these tests.


If you have any suggestions I'll try them tonight and scope the H1100 and MAX4224 card outputs for comparisons.


Thanks.


--Bill


----------



## sly

hmm what is the bypass cap value??


and post the scope pics..

also what is the voltage on the rails??

how close does the output of the chip get to a rail??






I would think you would need at lest 2 caps on each rail

a 0.1uF and a 0.01uF or something like that.


----------



## mp20748

Bill,

the MAX is a much faster chip than the CLC409, so I would suggest that you first try changing the resisitors values to around 249 ohm or something near that. 120 ohm feedback/ground resistor is definately too low of a value for the speed of the Max4224. I would also replace the bypass caps and put one 4.7 mfd and one 0.1 mfd in parallel on each rail (+/-) of the chip.


----------



## sly

Mike why the 120 to 249Ohm??

Is the 120ohm too inductive?

Or is it just to reduce the load on the amp..

If both are changed the gain is the same.

The only thing is the impedance is less.

So I guessing you want the resistors to be more capacitive and less inductive?


I would also think that a .1uF would be to big with the faster chip and something like a .01uF would be needed.

or maybe something even smaller yet.

The .1 is good for the 20Mhz range but the faster stuff it is too inductive and just has no capacitance.

The chip might have internal caps for the fast stuff..

and not need it??

The caps do seem to be getting better.

They just moved the cap analyzer to a different campus.

I would have loved to sweep a new .1uF and see where is becomes a non-cap. If I get some time I might drive over and try it and see how the newer .1 perform


----------



## mp20748

Sly,

by changing the resistors to a higher resistor value, you'll lower the "parasitic oscillation" of the chip by lowering the chips operating bandwidth.


What Bill described is the same problem that I was having with the LMH6702 (exactly). If he's able to scope the chip he should see the oscillation, and as you know, the solution is to increase the resistor values. This also what the application engineer at national semiconductor had suggested.


I know the theory behind the 0.1 as bypass (oscillation), but with a higher capacitance cap network, I've gotten very good results (lower noise on the rails).


----------



## sly

Mike thank for the clarification.


So I see where it is going.


So instead of adding a very small cap from the output to the (-) input.

You increase the resistors so you get the increase in capacitance for free. very clever.. saves a part too..

It is kinda complex because is also increases the capacitance from (-) to ground too. But the capacitance

of the pin its-self stays the same but the impedance is less. There is a lot of interaction going on to think about.

But I guess when all is done it is matching the capacitance of the (-) pin to the feedback loop as well as

making the (-) look more capacitance in general so it will get less crosstalk from the (+) pin..


I think I knocked a dust-bunny out of my brain that part has not been used for such long time


----------



## bblue

I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to this by now. I will try the resistor changes in the next couple of days. If I need to do further testing I'll open up and extra switcher box I have just to have a chassis and power as a place to work.


The bypasses on it are already 10mf and a .1 so that's not too far off from what Mike was suggesting. And the only thing in this box is input cards, about 1/2 of which are passive, so there's not much garbage sneaking in on the rails to be concerned about, so I guess self-oscillation would be the only issue.


Also, I got a bunch of the Burr-Brown OPA658 chips to try on the bridging input modules in place of 409's. Haven't tried those yet either, but if I was thinking I would have realized how incredibly simple it would be to convert those to passive inputs by disabling the passthrough and electronics altogether. I have a bunch of them so will try it both ways.


--Bill


----------



## bblue

My most recent challenge has been figuring out where some video signal noise that I see in certain types of scenes, test patterns and solid colors, is coming from.


To my surprise there were two different types of noise from two sources. One (the most obvious one) that looked like hazy fast and faint horizontal phase bars and beat patterns turned out to be the ATI video card. Many of the ATI cards seem to have varying degrees of noise that you may or may not notice depending on your pj/tv/monitor and viewing habits. Older 9500 Pro's (with a part number NOT ending in 110) may have it severely to the point that vertical lines may zig-zag slightly.


There's a more subtle noise that comes and goes (varies but doesn't completely disappear) and looks more like troughs of light rather than hazy bars. You might also call it very fat herringbone which randomly changes speed. The troughs are wider top to bottom and they pass up or down on parts of the screen (usually in the lower 1/2) on all colors, and are most visible to the eye on white or cyan. This one is coming from the projector itself (using the internally generate signals) and exists even when there's not a single cable connected to it. It's not what I'd call severe but I don't believe it should be there at all. It is the same when a signal is connected, i.e. the amount of noise in a white screen is the same whether it is internally generated or from an HTPC or other source. It seems to be more noticeable at higher vertical rates such as 72Hz, though it is there at all rates.


Possibly of no relationship, a lot of noise and fluttering can also be seen in each tube when it's at its 0 IRE screen level. Looking in the lens at the low level raster it is quite plain, but for the moment I'm attributing it to amp noise that is normal.


So my question is about what is normal on a 9501LC? If there absolutely shouldn't be a trace of anything, what might be a likely cause of this? Do any of the wires between horizontal, convergence, vertical or astigmatism boards and the tubes need specific positioning or are there any other areas that might be sensitive to radiated signals? Unless I have more caps opening up or leaking somewhere, this is about all I can think of that might cause what I'm seeing.


Any advice?


--Bill


----------



## mp20748

Bill, that noise is normal (depending on the amount), or should I say it is there even on a new unit. It's also there on most CRT projectors, especially the high end units.


That noise has been on my agenda for the past two years. I have spent a many day tracking it down. It was a tough persuit, but I found it and for the most part, I can make it go away.


Last month at the gathering where we had the Marquee 8500LC. I was asking if anyone could see the noise in the image or on the test pattern. No one was able to spot that usually noticeable noise. Earlier this week I drove 65 miles to one of my most critical customers, who owns a very tightly tweaked 9500LC and a Digital Leeza. I removed his VIM module and today I returned and reinstalled that VIM. This customer has had that 9500 and Leeza for a year now, plus he notices everything in the image, so he was a perfect for this. After I reinstalled the VIM and without any calibration, there was a very noticeable difference, and this is the things that stood out:


- the noise was not noticeable in the image or the test pattern.


- the colors had more punch.


- the black level and shadow detail was the biggest improvement.


I removed his VIM, but had already done the rest of his projector...


----------



## phil_e

I just want to second mike's comments about the VIM board upgrades. The picture was terrific before and even better now especially the black level and lack of noise.


----------



## bblue

Mike, I take it you're referring to the high amplitude noise, and not the background raster noise? Or are they one in the same as far as the mods are concerned.


So don't keep us in suspense! How will this new found knowledge relate to us out here? Is it something you plan to disclose in a future topic (where *have* all those wonderful topics gone, anyway?) or is it something you plan to do as a commercial venture?


I could make a guess as to what the fix is, but not precisely how to implement it correctly the first time.


Any more details?


--Bill


----------



## mp20748

Bill,

there are four sources of the moise inside the projector. One is the power supply, though it's an industrial grade very fast, highly filtered switching power supply, it still puts some noise on the power supply rails (and this is true with all switching power supplies).


The second is the control module (main computer), as you know it has massive capacitor decoupling on its 5, 15 volt rails, and even some of it's data lines (SDL, SDA, Int and analog ramps). This is supposed to isolate (as much as possible) that computing noise from the rest of the projector.


Third, is the interstage noise. Each board or circuit can generate it's own waste onto the rails or data lines. Especially the high voltage power supply and the deflection module that has high voltage/frequency pulses.


Last is grounding and circuit board design. And that includes some of the components.


This noise will show up in the internal test patterns, especially the white field. And it will and can take up a small portion of the image detail. Normally it would appear as a haze or slight snow in the background of the image, and there's usually a little random motion (mosquito/bars, etc) in the image. So there's two levels as you indicated. One is hash and the other is mosquito/bars. The very high frequency noise is usually displayed as hash (snow, cloudiness = loss of black detail). While the other stuff is usually jumping around on the screen (mosquito) or rolling.


In my research I've talked to engineers at Christie Digital, Microenergy (makers of the low voltage power supply) and Engineers at Washington Labs (FCC compliance laboratory), plus I have a ton of my own experience with noise, the guys at Washington labs was excellent. The lab guys do the testing of equipment for UL and FCC compliance. They also make recommendations to the manufaturer on what to do if the device has an unacceptable noise level, so they were a wealth of help here, plus they always invite me to their seminars.


There are some special components that are being used, but none of them involve expensive or special caps. Fact is, I do swap out several caps in the projector, and I do that to rule out any potentially leaky caps, but I can accomplish the same results if the original caps are good.


You got PM!


----------



## mark haflich

Shortly my 9500LC will be up and running with all of MP's latest mods (let's call them improvements). Almost all the caps in my Marquee were replaced with higher quality caps by KBK prior to MP working his latest magic and my machine came with an Ultra VIM module.


My new HT is not yet finished. ARS sound treatment gets installed in two weeks. Then we have to recarpet, install 12 chairs, wall sconces, wood trim, the speakers including 2 massive in ceiling transmission line subs, the 4 way masking Stewart screen, and the projector. It will be about another month before we reinstall the projector.


According to MP the new caps on the control board do result in a measurable 2db noise lowering but the improvement according to MP is dwarfed by the other mods or parts improvements MP is performing. MP has my back up 9500LC running in his house. It has several of his latest mods. Despite it having 2 very worn tubes, it looked very very good when my wife and I visited MP and his wife Saturday, no visable noise, none. They are close friends of ours although I honestly believe this does not bias my assessment of MP and his work. Trust me campers, I am one of his harshest critics and we do disagree on several things CRT related.


MP has been working on a component to RGB transcoder. It makes the other out there look and act like toys. If you use a transcoder to feed your Marquee you will be in line for a very substantial improvement when he brings the transcoder to market. This baby will not be cheap because it is packed with quality parts and SOLVES what's wrong with the several transcoders out there. It is hand tuned. As Phil T likes to say, "stay tuned"!


THIS HAS BEEN AN UNPAID NONPOLITICAL MESSAGE.


----------



## bblue

I tried the MAX4224's with modified feedback values in the switcher output card. The closest I could get to 249 ohms with metal film was 220 ohms, so I used those.


As far as the white crushing I don't see much if any difference from the earlier test. If there is any improvement it is slight at best. I tested it driving the pj directly as well as through an Extron distribution amp, but the results were the same.


On a whim and since I had another extra output card I decided to bypass the output circuit altogether so the switching could still be utilized but the card just passed its input directly to its output passively. On the output jacks there now is a 2' cable set connecting to the Extron DA now acting (essentially) as the output driver for the switcher and driving the pj.


That was an unexpected surprise. At first glance the image looked softer with less edge detail, but as I watched for awhile I noticed that the detail within the image was greatly enhanced. Small facial colorations and details were very clear and there was a lot more visual depth to the image. And compression artifacts at the digital level were much clearer, but very separate from the images. It appears as though the output card I've been using as the reference with the H1100's adds a sharpness to the edges that isn't really there, while robbing the image of more subtle detail. I had always assumed the two (sharp edges and image detail) go pretty much hand in hand but this change says otherwise. The MAX4224 card makes the edges look sharper yet, but the loss of subtle detail even before crushing is quite obvious.


It would be outstanding to accomplish a modification to the output cards which is equivalent to this clarity, but I'm not sure if it's possible. I guess next is looking for oscillation on the 4224 and how it is affected by feedback changes.


Any other suggestions?


--Bill


----------



## mp20748

Bill,

yes, the key is the background detail. That's where the resolution is.


We've been so used to looking for sharpness on the foreground and edges, that we never knew the background could look so good. But once you've experienced this, it'll be hard to tolerate anything different.


Concerning the "white crushing", you'll probably have to play around with different resistor values. Also, you should replace the 75 ohm resistors with a better quality resistor. If you want I could send you a batch of the right resistors to try (including the 75 ohm), but the 4224 should work great. And there's nothing worse than the CLC409's, so if you stay with it, you'll make that switcher something really worth owning.


----------



## sly

Bill,

it sounds like the you have overshoot


too much boost in the high end also knowing as peaking

I needed to add a 1pF cap on the gamma circuit I did

form the output to the (-)

but you need to look at this with a scope.

A fast pulse generator is also a very nice thing to have

to feed it.

Without a look with a scope or even seeing the picture there is a lot of guessing going on.

As for the crushed(saturated) white that sounds like the voltage of the output is getting too close to a voltage rail and clipping.



Does the image seem more contrasty through the circuit??


you might need to reduce the gain a bit


A smaller resistor from the output to (-) vs the the resistor from (-) to ground will do that


also check the supply voltages are they +5V and -5V ??


----------



## bblue

Mike, thanks, I'll take you up on that offer. It will certainly help me zero in on the issues with that card. With this passive output in place I'm now looking for the chip/circuit that I can't "see", which in the analog world is like searching for the Holy Grail.


Sly, no there's no increase of contrast, if anything it's (visually)lower than before the fb resistors were changed. I haven't checked rail voltage or done any scoping on this yet. If rails were insufficient, though, I'd expect to see the same characteristics on both chips not just the 4224. How fast on the pulse? What freq and width?



Slightly OT, but there is a PBS HD production that is worth a look. I don't know the name of it, but it's about 1/2 hour in length and is a story with Ashley Judd as a reporter interviewing a 100 year old man on his birthday. The video on that is pretty excellent, though you do see some minor compression artifacts.


--Bill


----------



## Curt Palme

I haven't been following this thread at all, but had to take a look.


Can I just say (and I mean this in the nicest of ways):


You guys are insane..










(Can I come play in your sandbox for a while?..










I'm so jealous!


Curt


----------



## mp20748

Curt,

thanks for stopping by, It's good to have some of the technical elite to stop in. I was also expecting to hear from KBK by now, but with Sly around, it's almost like KBK has been posting.



Guys,

I have the fix to make the Max4224 work on the VIM. I'll post it later...


----------



## joekjtam

Mike


I have changed the h1100 to max4224 and found that there is ghosting at bright scene and background noise is severe i.e. bright background lines.


Is there any way to modify the curcuit to resolve the problem.


regards


----------



## Jay Wilson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *I was also expecting to hear from KBK by now, but with Sly around, it's almost like KBK has been posting.
> *





You know, I thought that awhile back but bit my tongue


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by joekjtam_
> *Mike
> 
> 
> I have changed the h1100 to max4224 and found that there is ghosting at bright scene and background noise is severe i.e. bright background lines.
> 
> 
> Is there any way to modify the curcuit to resolve the problem.
> 
> 
> regards*



Yep, replace R12 (261 ohm) with a 331 ohm, but it must be a metal film @ 1 %.


R12 is the feedback resistor for U2 (Max4224), so it's right near the chip.


----------



## sly

"How fast on the pulse? What freq and width?"

the speed is not that important but the edge rate and the quality of the pulse is.


A nice fast edge is great for tuning.


I use a HP8131A 500MHz pule generator.

I had it running at 9nS around 111Mhz


But as long as you have something that will give a nice clean pulse with a fast edge it should work.


Then see what is wrong with the output.

Overshoot?

A small cap out to (-) should help that.

or if the edge is slow and rounded add a small cap from the (-) to ground.


And the power needs to be good.


If you are probing around the circuit itself a fet probe is needed and even that will affect it some.

I added a 1pF cap to adjust the circuit.

If you look at your probe how much capacitance does it have??

So you can see just probing will change the circuit.


Also you will need a in-line 75Ohm term to put on the scope to look at the output. Or a tee on the scope with a 75Ohm term.

The tee might cause some ringing on its own..


And a 50 to 75 ohm feed through for the pule generator.


you then should be able to bypass the amp and check the source it should be perfect. if not it will be hard to tune to


You can try it with video just use vertical stripes

But the video card might not have a clean pulse to start out with?


----------



## mp20748

joekjtam,

have you replaced R12 on the neck boards?


The Max4224 produces a sharper test grid, but it has the distortion problem with the original 261 ohm resistor. When I changed that resistor, the distortion went away. We need to confirm that this is a fix with every version of the neck boards.


----------



## bblue

Sly, thanks for the information. Unfortunately I have nothing that produce a pulse that fine in that frequency range. I've have a look around to see what might be available.


I think the probes I have are 10pf so probably aren't adequate either.


Oh well, I guess it's vertical stripes and eyes!


--Bill


----------



## sly

If you can term the signal to 75 ohms you still can look at the video out. you do not need a probe at all for that..

And if you compare the video going into it vs out you should be able to see what is going on.


The first thing is see what it is doing. then go from there.

if it is oscillation you will know right away.

or if it has massive overshoot. So you do need to look at it.


I would start with your video out of the PC

run the H sync to the external sync on the scope

Set it for a nice hi res setting and load the stripes.

then plug one of the colors into the scope with a 75 ohm term at the scope. A in-line type is the best but a tee with a 75 term plugged into it will work OK too. or just a 75 ohm resistor soldered into the tee keeping the leads as short as you can.


Now look at one of the stripes and note how the edge looks .

now plug that color into the amp and plug the output of the amp box into the same tee/in-line term and note what has changed.


----------



## joekjtam

mike


I have not changed the resistor yet as i am waiting for the method to use max4224 to the vim so that i can ask my tech people to do it for me at the same time.


Thanks for your help and assistance.


----------



## jrichards

I changed only the 3 "RGB" chips in my switcher to the MAX4224 and it seems to be working OK. The picture is sharper. The two sync chips are different on my switcher and also use different feedback resistor values then the RGB lines. 121 Ohms on the CL409's and 511 Ohms on the CL430's (sync.)


Should I change the two 121 Ohm feedback resistors on the new MAX4224 chips?


----------



## bblue

What are you displaying with?


I never could get next to the look of it with the 120 ohm resistors in there, and tried pairs of 220's as a test. But it still didn't look right, especially not compared to subsituting the Extron amp as the outut. So I'm still in a 'get back to it' mode awaiting some parts from Mike before I do much more.


You shouldn't need to do anything with the sync circuits that I know of, just the RGB amps.


Also, on that switcher, make sure you have the passive input cards (they have a single input for each line with no bridging). The bridging cards are active and also have the 409 chips in them.


--Bill


----------



## mp20748

300 to 500 ohms for the feedback/grounds should be about right.


Bill, can you shoot me your address again. I now have that VIM ready for you to check out, I'll also send the resistors, but it may be next week before I can get them out, I'm headed for the desert (Arizona) this weekend.


----------



## bblue

Mike, I take it that the actual value isn't that critical as long as it's uniform between feedback and grounds, and each stage? I'll try something in that range that I can find six of on hand.


I sent you address and other info in email.


--Bill


----------



## jrichards

All of my input cards are passive. I will try some 330 ohm resistors. I only have standard resistors (not SM). If the 330 Ohm metal film resistors work I can order the SM parts.

I'll let you know how it turns out.


----------



## joekjtam

Mike,


I have change the R12 to my EH8000 neck board to 330R and the ghost / background noise have been better. Formerly there is 10 ghost to sharp object at bright scene and now it have change to 4 and not very noticeable during movie. Should I change R12 further to improve.


I have other problem with my EH8000.


1. banking on bright scene for red colour eg. during explosion when the whole scene is fill with red colour. I have check my neck boards. They are rev. 1 neck boards and the green one have many modification done including many small capacitors but the blue and red neck board does not have the modifications.


2. During the checkerboard test pattern, the middle portion is a little red tinted, but it does not show up in other testing such as grid or white screen. Is it only the problem with the pattern generator?


----------



## joekjtam

Mike


I have change the R12 to 330R.


The amplification factor of the ic seem to have changed and i have to adjust/lower G value to cope for the new ic. The result is very good. I have a much sharper picture.


Can you advise how to use max4224 at the vim.


----------



## andyebr

Just a quick question. I may have found some CLC449 chips but I need the full part number, it should be a CLC449AJ?. Does anyone know what the ? should be?


thanks,


Andy


----------



## Donald W Howard

Andy


It should be an "E", the CLC449AJP is the 8 pin DIP package. The

CLC449AJE is the 8 pin SOIC package. The latter is the package

style used in my Marquee.


DH


----------



## aspec2

I ordered some CLC449AJEs and am waiting for them to arrive. I should have some extras if anyone is interested.


Walt


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by joekjtam_
> *Mike
> 
> 
> I have change the R12 to 330R.
> 
> 
> The amplification factor of the ic seem to have changed and i have to adjust/lower G value to cope for the new ic. The result is very good. I have a much sharper picture.
> 
> 
> Can you advise how to use max4224 at the vim.*



This option is only if the CLC449AJE's are not available. If you can get your hands on the CLC449's go that way. The Max4224's work well on some versions of the VIM's, but not on all, and would require some circuit changes. This could be a little mor complicated, unlike the neck boards single resistor change.


The IC's to really replace are the CLC409's. Some fail by smearing in the image, but without the smear, they are low performers. Replacement of the CLC409's will produce a sharper and more dynamic image.


----------



## bblue

So Mike, is it your opinion that the MAX4224's with the 330 feeback resistor is superior to the CLC449's? Or if 449's are already present, just leave them? If there's *any* improvement in noise or detail and no other 'expense' to deal with it seems like it would be a worthwhile change. Is there noticeable anything?


--Bill


----------



## bblue

Would someone enlighten me?


I have seen several stigmator boards that have shown signs of overheating of certain components. Usually the worst is in the red channel, R235 and R203 (sometimes almost ashes), with R135 not far behind. Then if overheating present at all in the blue channel, it's R635, R603 and R535. Every so often the Green might be affected with either R435 or R403 showing signs of heat. These are the same resistors electrically in each channel.


Is this due to generally overdriving the tubes and/or overcorrecting on stigmator adjustments, or is there another cause like defective tubes, other components or something? From their position in the circuits, it looks like stig drive outputs (correction) could be just set too high. (203, 403, 603 are -15 rail, 135, 335, 535 are Y stig output shunt to ground, 235, 435 and 635 are X stig output shunt to ground)


Are these the only components affected or could you say that if these are overheated then xxxx parts are probably bad too?


Thanks for any insight.


--Bill


----------



## bblue

Toto, do you think we'll be back in Kansas anytime soon?


----------



## stefuel

"Anyone for some Marquee maintanance"


That depends on where you bought it, Hee Hee Hee.....


Chip S.


----------



## AVWERKS

Not again! don't start


----------



## mp20748

Bill,

I've not experienced that. I've never seen a burn on that board, or had a problem with the astig drifting from bad or weak components.


I've seen some Marquees that operated in high temperature installs, that the vertical, convergence, focus, neck and deflection modules showed burn on the components, to including the boards themselves, but not the astig board.


I'll keep my eye open for that.


-----


Can anyone help me find a source for mini RCA's (male). I've purchased some, but they did not fit the female plugs on the boards (the center pin was too large).


I'll need these to complete my VIM/Neck Board mods. I need to know the cost for these, or if I'm able to offer them.


----------



## Jay Wilson

Mike, to minimize the search, or at least keep from doing double work on everyone, what major places have you looked? Seems like a year or so ago when I got my Marquee, I figured out that someone had them. Someone here posted the size specs, and in thumbing through a catalog I saw 2 different vesions and one happened to be the right one after frther inspection. I never ordered, but I'll look for that catalog.


----------



## mp20748

Jay,

there's a link on this thread. I made my purchase from that link.


Let me know what you find.


----------



## bblue

Thanks Mike. I guess I've just been lucky. 


[opinionizing mode ON


----------



## bblue

Mike,


There are actually two potentially useful links earlier in this thread regarding the rca mini plugs. Sly had sent this:


> Quote:
> I wet to work and grabbed a set of calipers
> 
> and the VIM's mini RCA's measured 6.35mm with a 1.7mm PIN
> 
> 
> so it looks like CTP-174-6A-1
> 
> and
> 
> CTP-175-11 with 1.7mm pin option
> 
> is what we can use..
> 
> 
> So Bob found them...



He's referring to http://www.connect-tech-products.com. In there, some of the plugs have a smaller pin diameter option, and the CTP-175-7a comes with the 1.7mm pin standard.


The other link is to http://www.excess-solutions.com/audio_connectors.htm which has a model ES519 that appears to be a mini, but I can't tell about the pin size. There aren't any other usable specs on that site.


Which one of these did you try?


--Bill


----------



## mp20748

Cool!


I went with the Excess Solutions. They were the wrong ones. I'll get right on the Connect Tech's, they're what I need.


thanks


----------



## sly

Yes I got some from Connect - Tech


the parts are cheap they gave me some samples I used on the gamma PCB


I talked to a Bruce Creedy (510) 656 8490

The local guy here.

The parts are so cheap I see no need to go to a junk shop.


----------



## Jaehong Lee

My friend and i have marquee9500LC.

i have tweeked input board capacitor mod and taking out color corection board, which gave exllent result.


I am planning to exchange mini RCA cable with tefron shield silver cable.



i need at least 12 mini RCA plug ( male )., hopefully 30.


Is there any one send to me in Korea.


Of course i will cover all expense.


they are selling 1000 baisi. i don't need that much.


May be i can send good tefron shield silver cable or HD tapes which recorded good Korean ATSC or Japnese BS HD .


i hope some body help us.


----------



## Lightningman

Hi Guys,


I hope you don't mind me barging in here ;o)) I have two Marquee projectors. One being a 8110 which I converted to a 8500 (well almost, it's missing the stigmator stuff) and a 8500 Ultra. I plan on completely rebuilding one of them for HT use. The other will stay in reserve as a parts supply. Of course I'll be having questions here and there ;o)) I have already taken the Ultra completely apart. Doing so I took pictures of all parts, which I plan on showing on my website (as soon as the pictures are up, I'll release the URL ;o))


Of course, I have been reading avsforum up and down and in particular this thread with great interest. I searched the web for some infos on the CLC op amp and found the National Semiconductor part number LMH6732.


Mike: Have you experimented with these, yet? They seem (specwise at least) to be an interesting alternative.



Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## Donald W Howard

Reinhard


Your 8500 Ultra should already have the preferred op amp, the

CLC449. We have been replacing the older CLC409's with CLC449's

in the older marquee's (8000's). Then the 449s became hard to find

until recently. My pal Walt found a source, but he had to buy a whole

tube (95 of them). If you need some CLC449s PM me or Walt (his ID

is aspec2 on this forum), we have several left. For a good price too.

Mike P. had tested one of the LM chips, but his report on it was not

good. The MAX4224 was a good replacement and even though it has

lower specs than the CLC449 I found they worked well on the neck boards.


Good luck with your refurbish of the 8500. Indeed, why would anyone

pay some technician to do that when he can have all that fun himself.


DH


----------



## Lightningman

Hi Donald, all,


>Your 8500 Ultra should already have the preferred op amp, the

>CLC449


I haven't looked into the 8500 Ultra yet. I just took it apart ;o))


The Ultra tubes are more worn out than the 8110 tubes. The 8110

tubes have 2800 hours on them. Red is mint, green has a very slight

mask (you really have to look hard to see it. I would place it between

0-1 from the CRT burn website). The blue has a slightly stronger mask

(maybe like 1 from the CRT burn website). The 8110 came from a virtual

cave experiment. The 8500 ultra came from the development depo at Audi

and this machine has around 7000 hours on the tubes. The red has almost

no mask (maybe a 1), the blue has a slight mask (somewhere between 1-

2). Unfortunately the green tube has a very visible mask (3-4) in 4:3

format. To make matters worse it not only has one mask, but two (same

size but shifted to the right, when viewing the tube from the front).

However the two other tubes will go into a box as replacement ;o)) and

the 8110 tubes will hit the 8500 Ultra chassis.


>the 449s became hard to find until recently.


Yes, I read that. That's why I was looking for replacements. I missed

your post that you found a new source for the CLC449.


BTW: Where are the tube hours stored? Does the EEPROM on

the backplane board hold this info?


>Good luck with your refurbish of the 8500. Indeed, why would anyone

>pay some technician to do that when he can have all that fun himself


Hehehe. I *am* a technician. While not on CRTs but for welding equipment

(from Mig-Mag to Tig all the way up µPlasma and stud welding) ;o))


And since I also dabble with Tesla Coils (250kV upwards), I think I

can handle the 34.9kV ;o))


Should I keep the (or rather move) the stigmator coils and the two control

boards when exchanging the tubes? Running the 8110 on a windows

desktop (yes, low brightness and contrast ;o)), I noticed the 8110 is a

little fuzzy on some parts of the desktop (esp fonts). I think the stig

stuff would help reduce this to a minimum. If I deconverge the

three colors, I also noticed that red (using the dot test pattern) isn't

100% round.


Of course I won't be using a windows desktop on the CRT ;o)) However

it shows me points where the projector needs more adjustment. (Yes, I

didn't take *that* much time to adjust the 8110 ;o)) since it isn't in the

final installment, yet.


Next question: I looked at the belly fans (for the tubes). Why did E-home

only make one hole for the air intake down below? (will be running the CRT

right side up & floor mounted) instead of one set of hole for each fan?

Wouldn't this increase air flow and reduce noise. If I remove the top cover,

I feel a strong flow of air from the fan (more or less) directly above the

hole, but from the two fans left and right from the hole (i.e. red and blue),

there is *much* less air flow (at least from gut feel). Seems to me the way

E-home did the air plenum design below the fans, the fans fight each other

for air (i.e each fan tries to suck as much air as possible, but has to fight

the other two fans, which are trying to do the same).


Also would it be a good idea (if I add the two holes) to add three (window)

screens to prevent the fans from sucking in too much gunk? I wouldn't

mind vacuuming the screens every few months to prevent clogging.


LVPS fans: Would it be a (good) idea to build a duct between the LVPS

and the HVPS (so that air is really pulled through the HVPS)? I was

thinking about cutting part of the LVPS case facing the HVPS. That should

also reduce noise a bit (will be foam padding the LVPS case and fans).

The duct between the LVPS and the HVPS would be fashioned from

nylon (so flash over or voltage creeping shouldn't be a problem)


Last question (for now): What is the color correction board for? I have

this board in the Ultra, but not in the 8110. Should I remove or keep

it for HT use?


Oh, BTW: I paid 2200 Euros for the 8110 and 1500 for the 8500 Ultra.

Are these prices okay? (I think so ;o) Just wondering what these CRTs

run for in the U.S.)


Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## Lightningman

Bump ;o))


C'mon guys, you have gotta have some kind of comments ;o))

on my ideas (even if you think they aren't any good)


Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## mp20748

Reinhard,

You're asking too many questions at one time, you'll need to do a little at a time.


So can you start over, but ask one or two questions at a time?


----------



## Lightningman

Hi Mike!,


Okay, I guess I got a little carried away with the number of questions ;o))

It's just that I have been looking over the projector and this forum, so I

posted a few (too many ;o)) questions. So let me start with the last two

questions again:


What is the color correction board for? I have this board in the Ultra, but

not in the 8110. Should I remove or keep it for HT use? I plan on running

the Marquee via RGB using DeScaler and a Radeon (probably the 9800).

If I can find a Multistandard Decoder board I might also run it via S-Video.

I was thinking about using an Image Shifter (unluckily I don't have this

baord either ;o() when watching TV so that the channel "icons" don't burn

themselves into the CRT tubes.


I paid 2200 Euros for the 8110 and 1500 for the 8500 Ultra. Are these

prices okay? (I think so ;o) Just wondering what these CRTs run for in

the U.S.)


Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## rob47v

Mike I have a 8111 great unit got it for a song run time are 356hrs on 432 standby. it was a demo unit. Well my quest is as so, like everybody around here Im trying to get the best pic possible I think my best start was to get the Marquee. I purchased the stig amp board still needing the rest to accommodate the entire system. Is the stig system going to give me a sharper playback via my HTPC ofcorse, or will just a simple good video card like the radeon 9500 do the trick? Im using ffdshow on the htpc for video processing but must admit it isnt the friendliest in use. Will a modded video card such as yours do the trick, or like I mentioned the stig system is the way to go?


----------



## sly

Well on the fans for the CRT;s

I think the FCC EMI had something to do with it as well as X-ray leakage.


also think what will happen if one of the three fans fail..

air plenum will help some but the air jet affect is in play also some of that air is redirected in a hole to cool the cards

CPU and video input cards in the rear card cage.


----------



## Lightningman

Hi sly,


>Well on the fans for the CRT;s

>I think the FCC EMI had something to do with it as well as X-ray leakage.



Hmm, maybe that was E-Home figure, but if I use metal window screen,

this shouldn't be a problem in either case (EMI or X-ray). Look at the cage

of a monitor. It's full of holes. (Okay their voltage is slightly lower @ 27kV)


>also think what will happen if one of the three fans fail..

>air plenum will help some but the air jet affect is in play also some of that

>air is redirected in a hole to cool the cards.

>CPU and video input cards in the rear card cage


I'm afraid I don't get that ;o)). The plenum itself won't change. In order

for that to happen, what (I think) you are talking about, the air plenum

would need to be much deeper. The way E-Home did it, air convection

won't *really* happen. If one of the fans fail, there will be absolut minimal

air flow to that particular tube (simply because the other two fans will

suck the convection action away). If I apply my mod, however, convection

will be possible as each tube has a "chimmney" pretty similar to the old

days of RF transmitter tubes. Since the whole chassis of the E-Home acts

as a heatsink for the electronics, I would imagine that it's most important

to keep the tubes cool.


It most certainly would be interesting to see the actual air flow through

the projector. Maybe using smoke to make the air visible.


I remember in a post you wrote (at least I think it was you. Or was it

Mooneyass?) that you where thinking of building a thermal watchdog

system that would switch the projector off in case of temperature rise.

I'm not sure if this would be easy to realize as we don't know where

thermal hotspots can occure (first) in case of fan failure. I think it would

be easiest to monitor the fan rpm (of course this means exchanging all

5 fans with ones having an internal tach-generator.) Since we aren't

interested in actual rotational speed, it should suffice to check if all 5

fans are delivering pulse trains. As soon as one fails we could shut off

the mains supply.


Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## sly

I was up too late










what I was trying to say was. That the air plenum is there for fan fail I think.

But due to air jet is is mostly ineffective. But is does work some if you stop a fan you still will get some air flow from the other fans. Air convection has nothing to do with it.

Also most of the chassis is NOT a heat sink. It is air cooled for all parts except the one big heat sink in the back. But everything else is air cooled by forced air.


I removed the three fans in mine and use a remote blower with a air filter on to keep every thing clean.

so having a shutdown system is good for clogged air filter and fan fail. I think there is some very easy hot spots to sens for bad air. Mine is still a work in progress I have been very busy doing my day job so I have not had time to finish it yet.



Perfed metal should work OK for EMI but window screen will not. It kinda works but not too well for many reasons.


The stuff used for EMI can be very complex built up of layers of different materials electroplated one layer after another. At lest the stuff we use is..


Also I was trying to say do not forget about that hole that sucks air over the rear card cage. The boards in there need cooling too.


----------



## Lightningman

Hi Sly,


> I was up too late


No problem







That's what discussions are for.


>what I was trying to say was. That the air plenum is there for fan fail I

>think. But due to air jet is is mostly ineffective. But is does work some if

>you stop a fan you still will get some air flow from the other fans.


Okay, I see, but this only helps *IF* a fan fails. In normal running

conditions, the E-Home plenum is more hindersome than helpful, as it

isn't high enough (okay I realize that E-Home's designers didn't want

to make the projector too tall).


>Air convection has nothing to do with it.


But the air convection would work if there was an opening below

each fan. You have the hot running tubes above the holes and cool

dense air below. This air would be pulled into the projector by pure

convection and should help, if nothing else, cool down the tubes, should

a fan fail.


>Also most of the chassis is NOT a heat sink. It is air cooled for all parts

>except the one big heat sink in the back. But everything else is air cooled

>by forced air.


Ah, misunderstanding here. What I wanted to say is, since the case is

made almost completely out of aluminum, it helps dissipate heat. Almost

all parts (be it the horizontal stage, vertical stage, LVPS, HVPS) are screwed

into the chassis. While this isn't the same as directly mounting the driver

transistors to the case, it still helps take the heat away (the heat from the

heatsinks is transfered to the specific housing by air and from the housing

the heat is dissipated into the case (okay it's indirect cooling







)


>I removed the three fans in mine and use a remote blower with a air filter

>on to keep every thing clean.


Hmm interesting idea. However, this is one step too much (for me







)

Do you >blow
case? Either way, I'm not quite sure if this has the same effect as

having the fans actually running inside the case. I assume you are cooling

the projector by overpressure (i.e. blowing cool air into the case).

This would change the air flow characteristic (and the way parts are

cooled) in the chassis parts >below
distort the air flow coming from the LVPS (just taking a wild guess here).


>I think there is some very easy hot spots to sens for bad air.


Let me clarify what I wanted to say: Of course there are certain places

that will heat up, should a fan fail, but how can we be sure that we

cover each and every part that might be thermally stressed? This might be

as easy to spot as a horizontal deflection transistor, yet it might also be

a simple resistor, which when properly cooled does it's job, but if air flow

fails, can die perhaps taking more expensive parts with it.


My point was simply if you really want to measure the temperature at

each and every possible failure point, this would amount to a lot of

sensors, some of which might even be difficult to affix to the part in

question (be it a voltage problem or simply to physically glue the sensor

to the part). If we simply check that the fans are rotating, it simplifies

things quite a bit. Setting the point (i.e. in case the fans still rotate,

but not fast enough) where we say the fan has failed is easy enough.


I still hope to catch Tim's eye as he seems to have really investigated

the air flow within the projector


> Mine is still a work in progress I have been very busy doing my day job

>so I have not had time to finish it yet.


Keep us posted as your work progresses. I'm most definitely interested

in your results. Since the projectors last as long as they do, E-Home

obviously didn't do that bad a job in designing the cooling system. But

then, it's just like tweaking your Chevy V-8 for more power. If everything

was perfect no one would do it --and we wouldn't have the fun we are

having--

















>Perfed metal should work OK for EMI but window screen will not. It kinda

>works but not too well for many reasons.


Okay, I could also use perforated (sp?) metal from an old monitor shield.


>Also I was trying to say do not forget about that hole that sucks air over

>the rear card cage. The boards in there need cooling too.










Yes, I did catch that. I'll have to look into this problem more closely.


Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## andyebr

It seems that it would be a lot easier to go ahead and replace the fans with ones that have the speed sensor in them. If you don't want to do that, what about a flow meter of some sort. I know they make flow meters that just have to have a small tip in the air flow to get a reading and don't restrict air flow; but I don't know about cost. They might get pretty expensive.


Just a thought,


Andy


----------



## Lightningman

Hi Andy,


>It seems that it would be a lot easier to go ahead and replace the fans

>with ones that have the speed sensor in them.


Exactly my point

















However, the Marquee posses no electronics to check the rotational

speed of the fans (as the original ones are simple two wire & fire units)

So we would need to add this (easy). Since we aren't interested if the

fan is turning 2000 rpm or 2100 rpm it makes the survailance electronics

a lot easier. The mains supply should be shut off, if any (AND gate)

of the fans drops below point "X" (count to N and reset).


There *is* a small problem, however.


I always remove power completely from the projector when not in use.

(after a cool down period). Not all people do this, so we need a method

of overriding the safety feature when in "shut off" mode (as three of the

five fans aren't running then). The saftey circuit still needs to monitor

(IMHO) the two fans in the LVPS when the projector is powered up,

however.


> If you don't want to do that, what about a flow meter of some sort. I


Here again, the problem *where* do you place the flowmeter? Same prob

as when using thermal probes.


> flow to get a reading and don't restrict air flow; but I don't know about

>cost. They might get pretty expensive.


I don't think so. We have these vane switches (we aren't interested if the

airflow if 10 cfm or 11.5 cfm. we just want to know if there is air flowing)

in some of our welding equipment. It's just a microswitch with an air vane

attached to them. It would be pretty tricky to place them correctly (there

isn't that much space around the fans on the blow side)



I think an rpm monitor, which is relatively insensitive to rpm is the way to

go (for the safety circuit). However I would like to improve the air flow

through the projector, too











Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## andyebr

A quick question...


I am working on the neck boards and I can't find any 22uF >=100V caps locally so I am wondering if I can use leftover pany 33uF 250V from my ECP days in place of these.


thanks,


Andy


----------



## andyebr




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *Now I'll share a real nugget.
> 
> 
> 
> First we'll start on the vertical... There are 8 resistors I'll recommend for change on this board... the later version boards have one half ohm (1/2 ohm) on each supply rail... They're supposed to be fusable metal film resistrors at 1/2 watt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'll also want to replace R5 and R6 with the same resistors also.
> 
> 
> Now for the convergence board... There are 12 of them on the convergence board... There are also 48 1.2 ohm (same mickey-mouse resistors) right near the power transistors.
> 
> *



So I am going to need a total of 70 fusible metal film 1/2 ohm resistors at 1/2 Watt right?


Sorry to bring this up again so late in the game.

Forget the previous post I'm putting together the order.


Andy


----------



## jcmccorm

Ya know Andy, if you were nice, and I know you are, you'd post the Digikey part number when you get it so I can order me some too.

















Cary


----------



## sly

Are the caps low ESR and 105 degree?

if so they probably would work. But I would think that they are too big to fit.

But digikey has the right parts .



On the fans the only problem with RPM is if the thing get plugged with a dust the rpm will go up a bit but no air so it can over heat and the tach will tell you nothing.


On mine the blower reversed the air in the rear card-cage.

And runs the same direction for the main part.

But it has no affect on the LVPS/HVPS colling system .

They are two separate systems that do not interact .( in the system due to the walls sealing each system off)

But what was happing with mine (ceiling mount) is that the hot air leaving one vent was just sucked in the next vent so the air was just running around in a circle getting hotter and hotter. So by blowing in fresh /filtered air in the system, the exhaust is cooler then the air would get going in the circle so the LVPS/HVPS should run cooler now due to just having cooler air there to suck in.


----------



## andyebr

Cary, it looks like Digikey does not have the resistors but I will list the rest when I finish. I think I am going to have to order 1000 (the mim. order)from Micro-Ohm and sell off the extras for those resistors.


And do I really need 22 1/2ohm 1/2 watt and 48 1.2ohm 1/2 watt resistors or is it 70 of the 1/2 ohm 1/2 watt.


For some reason that 1.2 ohm looked like a typo to me....


Andy


----------



## bblue

Andy, the schematics specifically show 2 1 ohm 1/2 watt fusible resistors in parallel. They didn't just change the value to 1/2 ohm.


Note that the paralleling is not in all places where there are 1 ohm resistors, there are some circuits where only one leg has the dual piggy-backs. If you don't see this, let me know and I'll tell you which ones.


If you look carefully at the PC board, you'll find that the 1.2 ohm resistors are also in parallel pairs side by side on the board. These are not fusible, just standard metal film.


33mf 160v 105 degree caps on the neck boards are fine, and in fact recommended on upgraded boards.


Last time I called Micro-Ohm (about two weeks ago) they were quoting 4+ weeks lead time on those resistors. Florida Circuit, Inc., also carries them, but I have not called for stock information. There seem to be about 4 European manufacturers of fusible resistors, but I've only found 2 local US distributors. So far.


Hope this helps.


--Bill


----------



## mp20748

Andy,

you'll need either 1/2 ohm or the 1 ohm from Micro-ohm.


The manufacturers upgrade was to add a second resistor to the 1 ohm resistors that are on some of the earlier boards. The later versions has the added resistors.


Also from the same tech bulletin (reliability Upgrade). The following parts should be replaced as follows:


- Remove R704, R804 and R904 (36Kohm) and replace each with a 30Kohm ohm resistor.


- R715, R815 and R915 (1.5 ohm) and replace with a 1 ohm resistor.


- Remove C703, C803 and C903 (470nf) and replace each with a 1 mfd 50dc electrolytic.


- Solder a 1 ohm resistor in parallel with R721 (i.e. across R721). repeat for R821 and R921. These parts are to remain elevated since they serve as fusable safety resistors for the module.


-------


Concerning the "color correction module" - As I stated before it should be removed. The exception is if you're using a curved screen, then it'll allow you to tweak the contrast on the outer edes for a more even image. Or if your're doing a multiple (side-by-side) projector setup, and you'll want to match the edges.


I'll try to get back to this thread later and finish up with upgrades and such.


----------



## bblue




> Quote:
> I'll try to get back to this thread later and finish up with upgrades and such.



Mike, that would be wonderful!


> Quote:
> Concerning the "color correction module" - As I stated before it should be removed. The exception is if you're using a curved screen, then it'll allow you to tweak the contrast on the outer edges for a more even image. Or if your're doing a multiple (side-by-side) projector setup, and you'll want to match the edges.



You know, I've never been able to get behind this particular suggestion and would like to know what your objections to the use of the contrast modulation card are.


IMO, the bright spot in the center of a flat screen is very obnoxious (to me)and obvious on many scenes. I have oscillated back and forth a few times, but what I keep going back to for the most realistic left to right image would require that card.


What I do is after the full gray scale calibration (using Colorfacts), I then measure the color temperature at the left and right sides of the screen, and utilize lens striping of red and blue to bring that temperature as close to that of the center as possible. Then remeasure temperature from each edge to about 1/4 of the distance in from each edge of the screen, striping on the green lens to smooth temperature deviations. The result is +- 100 degrees color accuracy from left to right. Without doing this, the right side of the screen is red dominant (several hundred degrees) and the left side blue dominant on a ceiling mounted pj.


But lens striping does take some light away so there is a little more lightness falloff to the sides. I correct that partially by increasing the light output on the three left zones and the three right zones equally on all colors. I say partially increase it because if you do it too much it doesn't look as smooth. Zone numbers of 65 to 70 are usually sufficient.


The net result is a lot less of a hot spot in the middle, smooth color rendition from left to right, and you don't need to run contrast as high to present a solid image. The picture is just more believable and 'there'. It's a real PITA to do, but so are many things about CRT projection.


Is anyone else doing anything like this or have comments pro or con?


--Bill


----------



## andyebr




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *
> 
> 
> - Remove C703, C803 and C903 (470nf) and replace each with a 1 mfd 50dc electrolytic.
> 
> *



The values on my caps are different, just wanted to make sure I still replace the same ones.


Cap 803 is a 330 (nf?)
 


Cap 801 is a 470 (nf?)
 



Do I still replace cap 803 with the 1uf cap even though it does not start with the same value?


thanks


Andy


----------



## aspec2

Reinhard


Sorry. Have had limited time on the board the last month and just caught up on this thread.


I am surprised that no one has said to take the tubes out of the 8110 and put them in the Ultra. The 8500 has a lot more features than the 8110.


The Ultra should already have the CLC449AJE chips and the blue gamma circuit.


Walt


----------



## andyebr

Also on those 48 resistors, I have two types of "pairs" of resistors along the power transistors. There are 12 pairs like the two on the left of the picture and 6 like the two on the right. There are no "piggybacked" resistors at all so I am assuming I want to replace the 24 similar to the ones on the left with the 48 1.2ohm metal film resistors right?

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/and...rs.jpg&.view=t 


thanks,


Andy


PS. The board I have is 50-2023-03P Iss. 2


PPS.

According to Micro-ohm's resistor color codes these are 10.0 and 10.2ohm resistors.
http://www.micro-ohm.com/colorcode/rescolor.html


----------



## bblue

Andy, no that's not correct. 1.2 ohm resistors are brn-red-gld-gld, and from left to right (lettering right side up) at the bottom of the board, are the following position numbers:


R169,R171 R168,R170

R269,R271 R268,R270

R369,R371 R368,R370

R469,R471 R468,R470

R569,R571 R568,R570


The 1 ohm fusibles which should be replaced with pairs of 1 ohm fusibles are brn-blk-gld-gld in the middle of the board. From left to right (and up/down):


R118,R117

R218,R217

R318,R317

R418,R417

R518,R517

R618,R617


On the vertical board, there are no 1.2's, only 1's to deal with. Pairs of 1 ohm should replace R721, R821, R921.

Single 1 ohms should replace R720, R820, R920.


--Bill


----------



## Lightningman

Hi guys,


@sly:


>On the fans the only problem with RPM is if the thing get plugged with a

>dust the rpm will go up a bit but no air so it can over heat and the tach

>will tell you nothing


Ahk!, Darn it. Your most certainly right. I didn't think of that situation. Hmm,

seems like I'll have to do some more thinking. Thanks for pointing this out !


>But it has no affect on the LVPS/HVPS colling system .

>They are two separate systems that do not interact .( in the system due

> to the walls sealing each system off


Yes, true. I was @work and I tried to recall from memory how the Marquee

is built. Seems like I mixed up the rear PSU panel and the divider wall

underneath the fans.










>the LVPS/HVPS should run cooler now due to just having cooler air there

>to suck in.


True. My idea was to make an air channel between the LVPS & the HVPS.

Seems like some of the air from the LVPS won't reach the HVPS. because

the front sheet metal covering both PSUs has vent holes (the LVPS

however sucks air in from the right side (and not the front).



@mp20748 & bblue:


Hmm, now what







?? One of you says ho, the other hum to the color

correction board. @Mike: Does the signal quality degrade (visibily or

measurably ) when running the projector with the color correction board?

To me it seems like a good idea, if I could adjust the contrast differently

across the screen.


@aspec2:


>Sorry. Have had limited time on the board the last month and just caught

>up on this thread.


No problem







I was just asking some questions that popped into my mind.

Glad I am getting lots of resonance and setting me straight on some of my

thoughts.


>I am surprised that no one has said to take the tubes out of the 8110

>and put them in the Ultra. The 8500 has a lot more features than the

> 8110.


That was my idea. The 8110 is my projector to play with at the moment.

The 8500 Ultra will be the true McCoy (i.e. also the one to mod). However,

I was exactly planning on doing what you said, since the tubes on my 8110

are in almost mint condition. I'll keep the 8500 tubes as spares and will be

looking for another green tube (to keep as a spare), since the green tube

out of the 8500 isn't in that great a shape. However, since the 8110 tubes

are okay, I'll have enough time to look for the (spare) green tube.


However, what I do need to know is if I should keep the stigmator stuff

on the modded 8500 (when moving the tubes). It seems to be a good idea

to be able to tweak the whole screen with the stigmator adjustments.


>The Ultra should already have the CLC449AJE chips and the blue gamma

>circuit.


Yes, it does. Donald mentioned this and I have since had a look at the

board. Walt, do you know where are the tube hours stored? Does the

EEPROM on the backplane board hold this info? If not, where is it stored

and what info does the EEPROM on the backplane PCB contain?










Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by aspec2_
> *
> 
> 
> I am surprised that no one has said to take the tubes out of the 8110 and put them in the Ultra. The 8500 has a lot more features than the 8110.
> 
> 
> The Ultra should already have the CLC449AJE chips and the blue gamma circuit.
> 
> 
> Walt*



The tubes from the 8110 (non-LC) 'WILL NOT' fit in an "ULTRA" The Ultra has LC (liquid coupled) tube assemblies.


-------


Bill,

the 1.5 ohm (R715, R815 and R915) where in some of the early version vertical boards. Periode: June 1995 to September 1995.


----------



## Lightningman

Hi Mike,


>The tubes from the 8110 (non-LC) 'WILL NOT' fit in an "ULTRA" The Ultra

>has LC (liquid coupled) tube assemblies.


Not to quibble with an expert, but are you sure? The Ultra Series comes in

four flavors: The 8500LC 9500LC, the 8500 (non liquid coupled) and the

8520 (two piece projector) At least this is what my manual, VDC Display

Systems and the label on my projector say ;o))


Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## mp20748

Reinhard,

you've got me on that one. I've never seen a non LC Ultra, nor does any of my literature show one. It must have come along later.


That's one over me!


----------



## Lightningman

Hi Mike,


>Reinhard,

>you've got me on that one. I've never seen a non LC Ultra, nor does any

>of my literature show one.


Here is a link to a sales PDF from VDC:

http://www.vdcdisplaysystems.com/Pro...chure_2002.pdf 


>It must have come along later.


Hmm, It's dated December 2000. It's also no longer the old style case (i.e

beige & grey with perforated (round holes) sheet metal along the bottom

of the projector case. It's black and has plastic sides covering the bottom

of the projector. This plastic contains slits instead of holes for ventilation.


Getting hold of the contol board:

U35 is version 4.2C

U29 is Rev 2.0 (no longer socketed)

U28 is Rev 3.0 (also no longer socketed)

U16 is Rev 3.1

U106 is Rev 3.1

and U100 is Rev 3.4.


The Electrohome part number for the complete control board is 50-2036-03

ISS.



Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## andyebr




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bblue_
> *Andy, no that's not correct. 1.2 ohm resistors are brn-red-gld-gld, and from left to right (lettering right side up) at the bottom of the board, are the following position numbers:
> 
> 
> R169,R171 R168,R170
> 
> R269,R271 R268,R270
> 
> R369,R371 R368,R370
> 
> R469,R471 R468,R470
> 
> R569,R571 R568,R570
> 
> 
> 
> --Bill*



Ok I'm lost... I have had 3 other guys look at this thing and none of us can find any of these resistors.


They are supposed to be on the Convergence Section of the Convergence Vertical Module (50-2023-03P ISS. 2) right? I can't find them on the Vertical Section either. Can someone point out where the should be in the picture?



thanks,


Andy

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/and...iew=t&.hires=t


----------



## andyebr

Newark has 1ohm .5watt fusible metal film resistors for $.145 each

http://www.newark.com/NewarkWebComme...044%7E&level=1 


Andy


----------



## bblue

Andy, that's an older revision of the board than I have schematics on. But from the picture it looks like the piggybacked 1 ohm fusibles should go at positions R117,R118 R217,R218 R317,R318 R417,R418 R517,R518 on your board. They should be maintained approximately at that height as well.


Your board doesn't appear to have the 1.2s at all. In their place is what looks like standard 1 ohm 1/2 watt metal films. Check and see if the Rx01 and Rx02 (x=1 through 5) positions are in parallel with each other. I think they are, and if so they should both be replaced with the same value. The other leg appears to be Rx10 but it is not arranged in parallel pairs, so just the one should be replaced with the same value.


There might be a technical bulletin with value upgrades, but I've not seen one.


On the vertical section there shouldn't be any 1.2's. Perhaps you can include a picture of it.


--Bill


----------



## andyebr

Thanks Bill, There do not appear to be any 1.2's on the vertical, there are a few 1.0's in the upper right hand corner, R4, R5, R6, R7 though.


Here's the pic.

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/and...iew=t&.hires=t 


Mike, do you know anything about this board?


thanks,


Andy


----------



## mp20748

Andy,

what is the model of that projector, and what are the numbers on that board (50-XXXX-XX)?


----------



## andyebr

Marquee 8000, the board number is 50-2023-03P ISS. 2


----------



## bblue

Andy, it looks like R712,R713,R714 R812,R813,R814 and R912,R913,R914. You'll probably find in each triplet, that two of the three are in parallel with each other and one is by itself. If this is so, then replace them 1 for 1, no piggybacks..


Mike, it's a combo board part number 50-2023-03P ISS. 2.


--Bill


----------



## andyebr

Bill, for R712,R713,R714; R812,R813,R814 and R912,R913,R914, each group has all three in parallel


"Check and see if the Rx01 and Rx02 (x=1 through 5) positions are in parallel with each other."


Rx01 and Rx02, on the convergence section, are not in parallel


----------



## Donald W Howard

Hi Andy


Excellent macro photography. What camera/lens are you using?


DH


----------



## andyebr

Thanks Donald, I am using 2 different ones, one is an Olympus, I'll get back to you on which one, that I use for the whole board shots and for the closeups, I am using a digital hooked up to a microscope and a computer (back-lit ones are just with a light underneath).


Here are a couple pictures of the traces, front and back of the two groups.


R912,913,914
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/and...iew=t&.hires=t 



R101, R102
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/and...iew=t&.hires=t 


Andy


----------



## mp20748

Andy,

I'm not sure, but I think you have the very first version of the 'separate' vertical board that went into the some of the 8000's.


The very first 8000's have a single (combined) vertical/convergence board that was not detachable, and it was used on the rear heatsink that did not swing down once the four screws were removed.


They later went with the separate versions (detachable convergence/vertical) that are so common today. So that's why Bill has been getting confused with the resistor locations, and it appears that both the vert. and convergence are slightly different from what we've been discussing. The good news is, it's not the single combined board. the not so good news is, it has us a little confused










Anyway, have you checked your neck boards for the CLC409 chips?


mike


----------



## andyebr

Yes, they have the H1100 chips, I have 409s to replace them with but have not gotten to that yet.


Andy


----------



## Donald W Howard

Andy


Um.. I hope you meant to say "I have 449s" in your previous post.


DH


----------



## andyebr

yep, I did...


I have CLC449's to put in place of the H1100's


Thanks Donald


----------



## bblue

Andy, I hope you meant 449s to replace them with, not 409s.


Well since those triplets are all in parallel, I'm not sure what to suggest. The circuits are usually fed with two rails, a + and a -, and each will have some low resistance value as a feed through. On your board, though, it looks like it is not a split rail configuration and one side is ref to ground and the other through the triplets.


Without a diagram about the only way to figure out what might be feeding the other rail is to trace the circuit out as best you can to determine how its supplied.


If it really is single ended and the supply is through the 1 ohm triples, I'm not so sure I'd even bother replacing them. They'd have to be pretty poor quality to have much of an impact as a group. Perhaps someone else reading will know this answer. I'm at an impass for now. Sorry.


--Bill


----------



## andyebr

Ok guys, I just got back from Don Howard's, neither of our have the 48 resistors RX68, RX69, RX70, RX71 (X=1-5) but they do have the 12 resistors-RX17 and RX18 (X=1-6) so I will just replace those with two 1ohm resistors and forget about the others.


Thanks for all the help and sorry about all the confusion.


Andy


----------



## andyebr




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> 
> *Andy,
> 
> you'll need either 1/2 ohm or the 1 ohm from Micro-ohm.
> 
> 
> Also from the same tech bulletin (reliability Upgrade). The following parts should be replaced as follows:
> 
> 
> - Remove R704, R804 and R904 (36Kohm) and replace each with a 30Kohm ohm resistor.
> *


*


Mike, these are the same resistors Tim says to replace the 56K resistors for the anamorphic mod. Does this only apply if you are not doing the anamorphic mod?


Andy*


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by andyebr_
> *Mike, these are the same resistors Tim says to replace the 56K resistors for the anamorphic mod. Does this only apply if you are not doing the anamorphic mod?
> 
> 
> Andy*



My bad. I quoted from the tech bulletin, and had forgot that those are the same resistors we replace with 56K for the anamorphic mod.


But yes, only if your're NOT DOING the anamorhic mod, and only if your board has the 36K resistors in it. But 98% of the vertical boards has the 30K already in it, and these should be replaced with the 56K, for HT applications.


----------



## bblue

I've moved these topics over to this thread since my next question is more of a maintenance type.


Thanks to everyone who replied in the previous threads about my tube phosphor concerns and the lens issues. I have located a set of GT17 lenses which should be here in a few days. Meanwhile I have the tubes removed and on the way to VDC for rebuilding again. Though they were better than what was in there a year ago, I never was happy with how they set up and performed, especially blue and to a lesser degree green.


What really surprised me was today when I removed them, all three had mild burn-in after just 1157 hours of operation. Nothing severe but certainly visible. I wasn't expecting any at all and have never considered the picture particularly bright. On setups my 100 IRE reference is about 7.5 ft.lamberts with a 1.3 gain screen. Anyone have any ideas on this? Is it normal?


The real maintenance question is this. Now that I have the chassis completely open and exposed again (it's still mounted on the ceiling), is there anything at all I should consider changing or upgrading? It looks like I can get to the 3-fan plate easily now, would it be worth changing those out to the Papst fans? Anything else?


--Bill


----------



## Tim in Phoenix

Say Bill


The Papst fan upgrade could buy you seriously better reliability, and 1-2 db lower noise, if done in conjunction with our Papst LVPS upgrade; e.mail me if interested. I also advise replacing the CLM lithium backup battery cell, and Mike Parker's VIM mod also deserves major consideration. HD-10L lenses are excellent out to 120"+ image width, be aware that GT-17s do not focus inside of 97-98" throw. Otherwise, if your 9" Marquee has v3.3 main software or higher then you are pretty well set. Be aware that replacing the lithium cell, or main software, will dump all established settings, unless downloaded to a PC using Marquee Librarian software, then uploaded after. Librarian software is a free download at http://www.etechvideo.com/


----------



## mp20748

Bill,

as you can also see from Tim's post, the HD-10L lenses should have worked for you. Like I have said before, most of the 9500LC's out there have HD-10L lenses. So if what you've been told is true, all of these happy 9500LC owners are operating their projectors on 78" wide screens or less.


-------


Next week, I'll post an announcment on where and how to get the VIM/Neck board mod. I chose 9 people as testers. The jury is still out on three of the testers, because two of them have not got their modded boards to evaluate (they're waiting to ship), and one has his, but is waiting for a tech to install it. I was going to wait for the full jury to return, but I have decided to go ahead based on the results from the six who has already reported. Everyone who has evaluated or has seen the modded boards gave a very good report as to the results. My testers/evaluators included some average HT folk, as well as a few engineers and some other technical folk. It was a well balanced jury.


Now, this mod is considered to be a High End upgrade to the Marquee projector. It will not fix a broken projector, or make a projector with weak or bad tubes look better (though such a projector may show some improvement). It will seriously upgrade performance. The improvements, if used on a well aligned, properly funtioning projector that has a good source and cables should be very noticeable.


Full details will be posted on my site later.


----------



## bblue

Tim, thanks for the suggestions. I may do that on the LVPS though I do already have new bearings on the existing two fans and they are isolated from the case. The LVPS already had a little voltage regulator circuit for the heaters (much to my surprise) that holds the filaments at 6.31 volts.


I also have Mike's VIM and Neckboard upgrades installed (as a tester), all of the maintenance thread mods plus a few, and have 3.3 firmware. I'll check on the battery age.


On the lenses, I'm not sure what to say. Your assertion that the HD10L's are good for up to 120" wide screens flies in the face of every chart I've seen so far. Even 3M's web page (took over US Precision) calls the HD10L a low magnification version of the HD10E. The L range according to their chart is 60 to 90" diagonal, and for the E is 90 to 300" diagonal, similar to a plain HD10.


I've got 120" throw to work with so the GT17 should do fine. Plus, at 12 lines/mm vs 10 lines/mm it is a higher resolution lens to start with. I just don't see the downside. In any event I'll report what I find either way. They're in pretty high demand, so it wouldn't be hard to sell if necessary.


--Bill


----------



## andyebr




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *And if your board has "U22" you have the gamma circuit.*




Well I have one question about this... The picture earlier of U22 was an 8 pin chip I have a U22 but it is a 14 pin chip. Does this make any difference? Here's the pic.


----------



## andyebr

Here's a zoomed out picture


----------



## mark haflich

I have two 9500LC. The one up now has the G17 lenses, the other the HD10L. For the 1.78 110 inch diagonal screen (54 x 96), the throw with the G17 is about 130 inches, we have it closer than the book 147 inches in order to fully utilize the tubes' rasters. Both sets of lenses will cover this size screen no problem. The throw changes with the 10s by about 4 inches longer. BBLUE what size screen do you have?


----------



## mp20748

Andy,

that VIm is an early version 8000 VIM. It does not have the gamma circuit.


Mark Haflich had the HD-10L lenses on his 9500LC, until he purchased a second 9500LC that had the GT-17 lenses. We swapped the lenses from the two projectors so that he would have the GT-17's on his present Marquee.


We had good focus with the HD-10L lenses on the 96" wide screen before the lens swap, and we noticed no difference at all with the GT-17 lenses installed.


----------



## bblue




> Quote:
> Here's a zoomed out picture



You do not have the gamma chip. It would be a CLC4x9 (or at least the same as the R G and B output chips if it was there.


--Bill


----------



## bblue




> Quote:
> BBLUE what size screen do you have?



Mark, mine looks like the same as yours, 96x54 or 110" diagonal.


According to the Madrigal MP-9 documentation, they used only the GT17 lens, and for a 96" wide 1.78 screen, the recommended throw is 120.2".


They write "These throw distances are minimums, assuming that you wish to use the maximum available phosphor area. Used correctly, they will deliver the best possible picture. They will, however, require careful attention to proper setup, as there is little room for error at these distances. We recommend leaving yourself +- 1/2" adjustment leeway in the mounting system for final fine tuning of placement."


But their definition of throw distance is "measured from the projector's center lense to the center of the screen". Using that definition I have a little over 124" throw, so it should be fine. I hope.


--Bill


----------



## mp20748

Bill,

the following is copied from the manufacturers tech sheet (54-017088-01P):


"5) Calculated values are for reference only. It is good practice to simulate the setup to determine the necessary throw ditance."


"6) Display size is affected by input signal characteristics. Once the sprojector is set, use the size function to match the size of the projected image with the size of the screen."


This is the proper way to determine throw distance on a Marquee. Every piece of literature that you'll see will have a different number to represent the proper throw distance. Also every rebadger claims to know the proper throw. But from our experience with the projector, and the direct results from the manufacturer itself - there is no throw distance figure for the Marquee.


That's why the literature reads simulate the setup to determine the necessary setup. And that is the best way to determine where the projector should go to the screen. From my experience, there are two reasons to do this. One is the differences in the horizontal deflection modules and other circuitry (to include input sources timings), the other is that there may have been slight differences in the HD-10L lenses manufactured. This has been a long debate, but has yet to be confirmed.


One thing for sure, to eliminate that focal problem on the other edge as much as possible, one must follow the recommendation in the manufactures tech sheet. And that even applies to the GT-17 lenses. Even that lens can create an outer focal problem if not setup properly. Especially if you're mating them to an earlier Marquee, because the Ultra has a different horizontal deflection module than the non-Ultra Marquees. So ignore all reference for throw distance, especially if you put GT-17's on your projector, the MP-9 is different, it has the Ultra deflection module, and that's a different deflection module than what you should have in your 9500LC.


----------



## bblue

Thanks Mike, that makes a lot of sense.


> Quote:
> That's why the literature reads simulate the setup to determine the necessary setup. And that is the best way to determine where the projector should go to the screen.



Originally that was how I arrived at the current throw distance. I set the tube image width to as wide as I could (within 1/4" of the tube face edge) and then moved the projector to fill the screen. That doesn't take into account where in the range of the lens you are, though mine seem to be close to the middle.


> Quote:
> Especially if you're mating them to an earlier Marquee, because the Ultra has a different horizontal deflection module than the non-Ultra Marquees. So ignore all reference for throw distance, especially if you put GT-17's on your projector, the MP-9 is different, it has the Ultra deflection module, and that's a different deflection module than what you should have in your 9500LC.



In particular, what is different? If the HDM can scan full width with reasonable linearity (and presumably tube focus) what else is required? Or, what else matters?


--Bill


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bblue_
> *
> 
> 
> If the HDM can scan full width with reasonable linearity (and presumably tube focus) what else is required? Or, what else matters?
> 
> 
> --Bill*



Ok, I'll answer this way:


I have a customer in Virginia Beach, VA. He has a 9500LC projecting on a large curved screen. If I remember correctly, his screen size is 109" wide. He also has HD-10 lenses, but there's a slight focal problem in the corners, but should be expected at that width.


His horizontal deflection board went out. The seller of the projector sent him a replacement board. The replacement board did not have enough amplitude, so he sent his original board to me to be repaired, so that he can maintain his present setup.


So his projector had two of the same part number deflection boards in it, but one was different... and that was also true even with new replacement boards. This is something that both Tim and I are hoping to one day identify with the boards.


----------



## sly

I do not know if this matters but by moving out the slug you can gain some width. I wounder if that is all you are seeing between the different boards with the same #


----------



## Lightningman

Hi Mike,


Are you *sure* it was the exact same part number? From my service

manual the Ultra part number is 00-260303-09P and the non Ultra

part number is 00-260303-07P. The board numbers are 50-002003-08P

and 50-002003-07P respectivly. It's only a one digit change from Ultra

to non-ultra.


In December 1998 the ultra board was revised. Here are the changes:


R1000 was changed from 49.9 Kohm to 47.5Kohm

R63 was changed form 133K to 100K

Jumper at P7 is no longer in use.


P7 is part of the width sensing circuit. In the original design the LM6361

Op-Amp inverting input has a 7.5K resistor to ground. The later revison

removes this 7.5K resistor from ground (i.e. left floating). The other two

changes are part of the Key & Pin Tracking circuit.



Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Lightningman_
> *Hi Mike,
> 
> 
> Are you *sure* it was the exact same part number? From my service
> 
> manual the Ultra part number is 00-260303-09P and the non Ultra
> 
> part number is 00-260303-07P. The board numbers are 50-002003-08P
> 
> and 50-002003-07P respectivly. It's only a one digit change from Ultra
> 
> to non-ultra.
> 
> 
> In December 1998 the ultra board was revised. Here are the changes:
> 
> 
> R1000 was changed from 49.9 Kohm to 47.5Kohm
> 
> R63 was changed form 133K to 100K
> 
> Jumper at P7 is no longer in use.
> 
> 
> P7 is part of the width sensing circuit. In the original design the LM6361
> 
> Op-Amp inverting input has a 7.5K resistor to ground. The later revison
> 
> removes this 7.5K resistor from ground (i.e. left floating). The other two
> 
> changes are part of the Key & Pin Tracking circuit.
> 
> 
> 
> Greets,
> 
> Reinhard*



Reinhard,

the board number is the same (00-260303-07P) on the non-Ultras, but there were changes made to that board number that may show up in the part number to reflect that boards changes. Not sure what the changes were, or when they were made, but just like what you've indicated with the Ultra board, revisions were being made to both, but they still have the same *board* numbers.


----


Sly,

not sure if that'll solve the problem, because the tech sheet was refering to new Marquees, so we assumed that the coils were properly adjusted when they left the factory, so no adjustments were made to them unless it was a special display setup, and the width adjustments needed to be more precise. But to properly size the raster using the coils, the +85 volt rail should be checked first, to make sure it has a stable +85 on both high and low bands, this should be done before adjusting the coils. If that voltage is low on either band, the power supply is either weak or there's a problem with the deflection board. In either case sizing out the image could damage the deflection module.


The huricane has robbed us of power, so I'll be scarce for awhile, until they get our power back on.


----------



## fadax

Hi,

first excuse me for my disturb,

please help me,

I need the specification of 2 resistor and 1 capacitor behind the r223 of the 8500 power supply LVPS because I have 2 of this LVPS and if I misure the voltage vhen the CRT are on I can read 6.60v and when I look for adjust the trimmer this is missing and in the same place there is a little daughter board and there is not the 2 resistor and 1 capacitor.

I post the picture of my LVPS


----------



## mp20748

The first resistor is a '121' ohm 1/4 watt 1%


The cap (C127) is a '104' (or 0.1 uf). I believe it's 50vdc.


The second resistor (R226) is a '536' ohm 1/4 watt 1%


The resistors must remain at 1% tolerance.


----------



## mp20748

Starting this week we'll be working with Tim Martin on Marquee board repairs. This co-laboring venture will also include my Marquee "Performance Mods."


Tim (E-Tech) will be the source of both board repairs and Performance Mods. We've combined our talents, tech literature and notes to make possible a very comprehensive board repair and exchange service for the Marquee projector. This new service was in the workings for the past year, and was the main reason for my visits to the desert (Arizona). So after a year of hard work, we're now ready to offer this service to all.


This service will cover about 90% of all the Marquee boards. And before the end of next month we plan to also offer rebuilt HVPS's. And after two years of laboring with the HVPS, we feel the rebuild process of the HVPS is complete. I now have two technicians in place to help with this great work.


We wanted to not only offer repaired boards, but we also wanted to make sure that the boards we offered would have the latest known upgrades to include the replacement of any known or commonly failed components.


Starting today, All Marquee board repairs to include the Marquee Performance Mods that I've mentioned in the past will be handled through Tim Martin. Since I'm not the source of contact for these items, I can't discuss pricing. Please email Tim directly at this email address:

[email protected] 


More details on this and my MP-5 Transcoder will be posted on my website soon.


Also this month, The release of the MP-1.3 -- will also be discussed on my website soon.


The Repairs, Mods (Tim) and Transcoder (to be announced) will all be handled by someone other than myself. I need to get my life back


----------



## bblue

I have my 9501LC tubes back from VDC and am in the process of doing the full magnetics alignment and setup. They really look quite excellent so far, though red behaves quite a bit differently than the other two.


After disassembling and cleaning the GT17 lenses I installed them, replacing my HD10L's, to do a rough positioning adjustment along with a preliminary electrical and optical focus. (If you missed the earlier thread, the issue had to do with how large a screen the HD10L's could project to. Mine is 10" wider than the widest supported, yet others reported no problems at all with even larger screens than mine at 96" wide.)


I cannot believe the difference between the GT17's and the HD10L's I have been using on my system. The focus is very precise, and the flapping and corner adjustments are a breeze to do. With the HD10L's, flapping changes were hard to see clearly and difficult to balance uniformly from side to side, corner to corner.


No more. The sides, top-bottom, and corners are very easy to adjust because you can see what's going on quite clearly, 10ft back from the screen! I haven't tweaked them down to the last nad yet, but after just a few minutes spent on each one they are very sharp and detailed all the way to the edge of the screen and corners. Quite impressive, and something I've never seen before here.


Even better, at my existing throw distance (just over 120") there was no significant change in picture width and height. The overall image size is the same.


The only gotcha in the installation was that these particular GT17's (from a Barco projector, not that that should matter) have a slightly thicker mounting lip. The four cap screws used to mount each lens were just long enough to get a couple of turns thread grip. I'll need to replace all of those before I button things up.



Now a little tip. Maybe this is common knowledge but I've never heard anyone mention it before. On a ceiling mounted pj, when you're doing the flapping adjustments, you'll note that the lower left corner of the front of each tube has adjustment screws for up/down tuning, and the lower right corner of each tube has adjustment screws for left/right tuning. For any given directional adjustment, you're supposed to loosen one screw slightly, tighten the other one against it, note the differences and keep repeating this until things look right.


What they don't tell you is that the longer of the two screws in each set is actually the lockdown screw, and the short one actually does all the moving. Assuming that your tube assemblies are free within the case (no wires or other things holding them from moving freely), and your pj is ceiling mounted, you can simply unscrew the lockdown screw a few turns and make the adjustments with the short screw only. By having this freedom, you can see the immediate and continuous results from a single adjustment. Once you're in the right range, you can actually see the lens move in the image on either side of balanced. It kind of widens slightly on one side or the other at +-1/4 turn on the adjustment. Once you're centered in that range, tighten down the lockdown, make sure it didn't shift anything, and you're done.


Of course, you still need to work up/down or left/right against master focus if flapping is off by very much. With the corner adjustment ring, which also interacts some with flapping, if one or more of the corners does not sharply focus at the same time the others do, your flapping adjustment is still off a little.


--Bill


----------



## bblue

Throughout this and other threads, whenever there has been a discussion on how to set G2 on a Marquee it's described as being done only by reference numbers of control settings. For example, setting brightness at 50 and then adjusting G2's so the lowest step on the internal stair-step pattern is not seen, and the 2nd step is 'just' visible. Or setting all G2's at 60, brightness at 50 and then do gray scale tweaking from there. 60 because that's the way a lot of them come set from the factory.


Doesn't that leave some latitude for a possibly significant error in terms of tube life depending on age and origin of the tube? Contrast and Drive settings do the same thing -- vary the amplitude of the video signal on the first grid of the CRT. But Brightness and G2 do quite different things. G2 is a fixed voltage adjusted only by the G2 grid pot on each tube, and brightness controls the DC signal offset between cathode and grid of the CRT. So I think you could say that Brightness controls traditional black level (relative to the peak video signal itself), but G2 controls tube cutoff.


Isn't there a more precise way to adjust G2 to get it correct for each tube as well as relative to brightness?


It seems like you would want G2 as low as possible and still give you enough upper range of brightness, as that would minimize the electron output of the cathode. Right? Not?


Does anyone know more about this and/or a precise procedure for setting G2?


--Bill


----------



## jcmccorm

Bill, as you say, drive/contrast/brightness effect the cathode (and G1 grid for the Marquee) and G2 is Grid 2. I hear what you're saying, but even if one is set to the extreme, the other will compensate for it. If brightness is too high, if you adjust G2 as per the instructions, it will end up being slightly lower than it would have otherwise. The yardstick we're using to measure their "proper" position is the beam current (indirectly, as we're really looking at how much the phosphor is being excited). Since we adjust so that the "lowest step is not seen", I don't think it matters how we got there, brightness or G2; in terms of tube life, it will be the same because the beam current is the same.


Now what about the effect of having one of the controls set to an extreme? Let's say brightness is too high so G2 gets lowered to compensate. I don't really think it will effect the G2 circuit at all. Moving the brightness to full range probably requires only a small voltage change on G2 to compensate.


Cary


----------



## gerni g.

hi cary,


don´t you loose some contrast/ punch when setting g2 too low and compenate with increased brightness?

this is what i examined on my barco. with proper g2 adjustment the overall picture has very much more punch. with lowered g2 it´s a little washed out.

don´t know yet how this works with marquees.


regards,


gernot


----------



## jcmccorm

Gernot,


As I typed my reply above, I wondered about that. Increased brightness *could* effect the dynamic range available for video since you're raising the floor on the signal. I decided that I'd really have to look at the schematics to tell and I was too lazy.










Cary


----------



## bblue

For the last few days I've been running G2's high (70-78) and brightness low (23). The picture is pretty good, though the tubes are still settling in. I'm about to do another tracking adjustment and this time will shift G2's down and brightness up and see how it compares.


Looking over a variety of reference literature on vacuum tubes and crt's, it seems to be indicating that in a projection type crt the 2nd grid is used more as an accelerator than a control grid, just before the focus and other magnetics come in to play. If this is true and it is more-or-less amplifying further whatever beam it gets as a result of cathode and grid modulation, then it would seem that you'd want the cathode to emit less (lower brightness) and G2 to pep things up. But where is the happy medium? There must be a preferred current through the cathode and a preferred voltage at G2 for optimum performance. Hard to imagine that these two different areas of beam control can be completely linear through both their operating ranges.


--Bill


----------



## jcmccorm

Hmmm, well, at least we only have to worry about the cathode. The G2 voltage is constant (except for when you adjust it) so it's only the cathode that varies the beam current. If I remember right, brightness does change the bias point for the cathode amplifier (it's really a differential amplifier with outputs on the cathode and G1) so I guess it's possible that whatever bias point you end up with because of how you set your G2 could effect the linearity or dynamic range of the cathiode/G1 amplifier. I'm not sure that the bias point would actually shift enough to worry about though.


I guess you're in a good position right now to see if you can tell a difference Bill when you go to higher brightness and lower G2.


Cary


----------



## bblue

Well. I spent most of the night this morning trying different things and was getting inconsistent results. So I noted the G2/Drive/Brightness/Contrast settings I used when Brightness was being set really low ( as above) and started from scratch using the recommended starting point numbers (all G2's at 60 and drives at particular values for each tube) like in earlier threads here and also on Tim's web site.


I've started with those numbers before and they were reasonably close but this time (new rebuilt tubes, different blue phosphor, add red c-element) those numbers weren't anywhere close. When I was happy with the tracking according to Colorfacts I was surprised to see that I was +-500 degrees of 6500 from 20 to 100 IRE, and most of that variance was just in the blue tube curve. Not bad, actually.


But I've now watched the pj in this config for several hours and don't like it a bit. G2's are each 4 units below what they were on my previous setup but drives varied quite a bit both directions. For what approaches a balanced picture now, I have contrast at 55 and brightness at 60. Before I was around contrast 58 and brightness at 23. That brightness shift is from 4 G2 units on each tube! Anyway, at any combination of brightness/contrast the picture looks too dark, except for bright peaks above 60 IRE or so, and they just jump out at you. Turning down contrast and raising brightness reduces the range but doesn't undarken the picture detail-wise.


Before doing any of this I watched my various sources (several HD and the HTPC) on the scope making sure that video waveforms stayed within the 0-7v p-p range, and that the HTPC output also conformed to that. All the sources now have the same general appearance, dark, though HDNET and Discover HD when airing excellent source look very good except for the darkness at lower levels.


Tonight I'm going to try to recal with higher G2, forcing lower brightness and see how that changes things.


--Bill


----------



## aspec2

Bill


I haven't read this thread for a while. You, however, have piqued my interest.


Thanks


Walt


----------



## GlenC

As some of you know, I am very new to the 9500LC. Just got my first Wednesday.


This thread has been great, I commend all of you for your contributions.










I got to one of my neck boards and it definitely shows signs of the high hour burn that MP describes. (I will attempt to attach a picture.)


What is the recommend part to replace L8 and L9?


I have been planning to buy a digital Multi-meter, do some of you have recommendations? I have been looking at Fluke, but there are so many choices..... (I could just get a 189, but would never use all of its features.)


Thanks


----------



## GlenC

I will try the picture attachment again.


----------



## andyebr

Wow, and I thought mine was bad...


----------



## bblue

Glen,

Probably not too much conductivity left there! Probably should remove the resistor and wire brush the ends, reinstall and resolder making sure there is good flow between the trace and wire. You should resolder all those resistors regardless of how they look (even good ones). I've got one board in a spare set of neck boards that is a lot worse than that one, to the point of having to replace sections of trace with wire. It was really fried.


On my spare set of neck boards I used the Miller 5300-25 100mh chokes (Mouser) and they seem to do ok. On my main boards with Mike's modifications, he uses something different, though it looks similar. I don't know what it is by number. Perhaps he will comment on this.


Definitely do all the neck board mods you find in this thread. I'm not sure which thread it's in but later on Mike mentioned using 33mf 160v 105 degree caps instead of the 22mf's referenced in the thread.


--Bill


----------



## bblue

Following up on my last G2 post, there does seem to be something to the relationship of G2 to brightness.


In my last post I had started calibration to what appears to be more or less reference G2 levels, and ended up with remarkably good gray scale tracking from 20 IRE up but the resulting picture had a too high on whites too low on blacks look that was really hard to watch.


This time, I started calibration from that point (where it was), but first lowered brightness to 30. The net result was, basically, moving G2 up 3-5 numbers on all colors. The look of the resulting picture is completely different! The high whites look more like part of the picture, and the low blacks show more shades of gray. The whole presentation is more realistic and life-like and subtle details are clearer, as if it was higher resolution, but the resolution didn't really change. It's sort of analogous to an audio system with its treble and bass controls set too high, then lowering them to flat or a point at which they become part of the whole presentation rather than jumping out at you.


There probably is a point somewhere between these two extremes that is the ideal place to be, but how do you determine it other than visual trial and error as I have been doing? I can't help but believe there is a specific 'right' way to set (or start) G2 (or brightness) that just hasn't been disclosed as of yet.


I can't quite visualize what is happening in the tube with these changes. At first I thought it was a range issue -- the amount of visual range there is from black to white, but that is what white level (contrast) would control. Black level (brightness) itself seems to be a DC biasing issue of the tube which would control where in the operational curve of the tube the black to white range actually exist. G2 would then act like a booster amp, accelerating the tube output results on to the surface, with further acceleration and beam guidance handled by magnetics and anode voltage. This currently makes the most sense but I'm just not sure yet. Anyone with another explanation?


--Bill


----------



## GlenC

Bill, That is the plan, and I will make all three the same. Mike told me yesterday about the 33mf I just need the specs for L8/L9 the CLC449s have been ordered. I think that is all i need to replace.


Now for my "dumb" question: Is all of this neck board work done with the heat-sink in place?


----------



## bblue

Yep, sure is. The heatsink only is partially in the way on a couple of components. With a slim shank soldering iron and standard pc board tip you can get to everything with little effort, just a bit of cleverness!


--Bill


----------



## bblue

anyone? No thoughts or opinions?


--Bill


----------



## GlenC

Bill,


I recently did some G2 adjustments on my Barco 1208. As a result, I have noticed that I am having to back down the brightness on some signals.


----------



## SunTECH

Where can I find some of the CLC449's??? I need to order a dozen or so...


Thanks,


Nick


----------



## Lightningman

Hi Bill,



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bblue_
> *anyone? No thoughts or opinions?
> 
> 
> --Bill*



Well not directly, but what would be of interest to me is what

beam current values are safe for long lasting tubes? I think

beam current is the only real value which can be considered

in terms of talking about tube life. A lot of people say a contrast

& brightness setting of so and so is good for long tube life.


Personally I don't think you can give any "potentiometer" values

like that, since it also depends on how "hot" your input is. Meaning

what is the Vpp of the video signal, etc.


Of course, I realize any beam current above zero is going to lead

to phosphor wear, but where is the happy midpoint between

brightness and tube life? And how would one go about measuring

beam current? One might be able to measure it via a cathode

resistor (being the sum of all current flowing in the tube i.e. not

explicitaly the pure beam current), but I doubt that G2 or other

control grids take that much current, so it should be accurate

enough. And how does beam current comapre to tube life? Is

it a linear function? exponential? If it's exponential (which I

suspect --> at least above a certain limit), then tweaking a little

more brightness is going to reduce tube life radically.


Bill wrote:

> but the resulting picture had a too high on whites too low on

> blacks look that was really hard to watch


Yes, I too have noticed this when setting up the tubes the way Tim

describes on his website. Using the other (described elsewhere)

method (getting all tubes to light up from dark black equally), also

doesn't give me results which I really like. Having a colorimeter (sp?)

is nice, but I don't have one *and* I think you can't use a purely

scientific method to adjust color. Everyone likes their "tone" a bit

differently. Some a little colder, some a little warmer.


I also find the method, which Tim (no offense ;o)) describes a little

vague. What *exactly* does it mean, when he writes "so that the

second darkest square just lights up". Should you be able to actually

"see" the bar or just the divider line between the bars (for example)?


I mean the smallest amount of ambient light or light being reflected

from the walls, furniture and what not else are going to affect this

adjustment. It also depends on how good one can identify the

difference between really black and "just lit". Other questions which

pop into mind: Is this to be checked with your nose directly on the

screen or for which screen gain values is the true? The higher the

screen gain, the easier it would be to see, but then the easier the

screen will hot spot.


However, I am not sure if you can work with voltage values for G2, as

this also depends on the degree of wear on each tube. As a matter

of fact I'm not even sure each tube (say green for example) has the

same exact same color range as another tube even of the same kind.

In other words does each and every tube (of the same color) have

a true spectral range from "x" to "y" (low end to high end range).

Does this change with age (w/o taking wear into consideration)?

How much does this vary from tube to tube? How much does this

vary in terms of tube wear? All of these things are going to affect

the color temperature output of each tube and therefore also the

color temperature of the whole picture.


A lot of questions, but I haven't been able to find any really

satisfactory answers ;0))


Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## jrichards




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SunTECH_
> *Where can I find some of the CLC449's??? I need to order a dozen or so...
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Nick*





I could use a a dozen or so also. I can't seem to find them unless you order 1000 or so.


----------



## GlenC

I am getting ready to replace the tubes on my 9500LC. Any recommendations on cleaning the black electrostatic dust from the hardware and Thomson yokes?


----------



## bblue




> Quote:
> I also find the method, which Tim (no offense ;o)) describes a little
> 
> vague. What *exactly* does it mean, when he writes "so that the
> 
> second darkest square just lights up". Should you be able to actually
> 
> "see" the bar or just the divider line between the bars (for example)?



Lightningman, you should be able to just see the 2nd bar and not see the first bar at all. I'm not sure what you mean about a line in between them -- I don't see that. Maybe your contrast is too high?


On G2, I'm sure there must be an ideal or 'target' cathode current range for the tubes but so far no one has reported any knowledge of it.


I wonder if one of our resident techs who has a full service manual set could look in the waveforms/voltages or calibration areas and see what it says about the subject?


I've been watching HD video on the scope at the same time as on the screen and noticed that the majority of it is referenced to 0 IRE not 7.5 IRE as 'black'. But many will only drop to 7.5 IRE on a fade to black and then resume 0 IRE on presence of signal. This means that if you have brightness set for the right black level as seen on program content, fadeouts will fade to gray, not black. Upconverted HD (from regular NTSC) mostly uses 7.5 IRE as 'black' but that doesn't mean much since you don't usually adjust to (or even watch) it.


This doesn't have anything to do (directly) with our G2/brightness tube calibration dilemma but does explain the need to push brightness for general HD viewing.


--Bill


----------



## bblue




> Quote:
> I am getting ready to replace the tubes on my 9500LC. Any recommendations on cleaning the black electrostatic dust from the hardware and Thomson yokes?



If inside the house a vacuum cleaner with wand+brush, and perhaps a small 1" dry paint brush. If outside, an air compressor and dry paint brush. If using an air compressor (at any time) be sure to drain the tank of any accumulated moisture beforehand.


--Bill


----------



## Lightningman

Hi Bill,


Okay, after the stupid Windoz explorer screwed me







,

here's my second try.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bblue_
> *Lightningman, you should be able to just see the 2nd bar and not see
> 
> the first bar at all. I'm not sure what you mean about a line in between
> 
> them -- I don't see that. Maybe your contrast is too high?
> *



Maybe I just described it wrong. Each graytone of the stairstep has

a distinct edge, making it easy to see each rectangle. That is what I

called "line". This distinct edge is very easy to make out way before you

see the actual graytone of the specific bar. So my question was do you

just barely want to see this edge or do you actually want to barely see

the rectangle (second to last or second to first). While calibrating I have

contrast set to 45 and brightness to 50. While viewing a movie actual

contrast is set between 41-46 and brightness between 31 and 38. Sort

of depending on the movie. My screen is almost 2,50m (roughly 98 inches)

wide. I haven't really tweaked my 8500 as I want to rebuild the 8500

Ultra (non LC







) using the tubes out of the 8500 (almost mint condition)

and the pj isn't in it's final location, yet. People like Mike would probably

call my picture "broken"











> *Quote:*
> *
> 
> 
> On G2, I'm sure there must be an ideal or 'target' cathode current range
> 
> for the tubes but so far no one has reported any knowledge of it.
> 
> 
> I wonder if one of our resident techs who has a full service manual set
> 
> could look in the waveforms/voltages or calibration areas and see what it
> 
> says about the subject?
> 
> --Bill*


*
*Yes, I will agree there is probably an optimal current range for the beam

or cathode current. However, the true adjustment is going to be largely

dependant on the condition of the phosphor (which is why I asked if

the coating ages, even w/o electron bombardment) and will most likely

also be different for each R G or B tube. To me it seems that beam current

is the only way to adjust the pj (unless you have enough tubes so that

tube life isn't critical







)


As to the service manual: I have an original Christie service manual

including the schematics. However, there is no real calibration process

described in the manual (i.e. in that respect it's similar to the owner's

manual) and there are no waveforms shown. The only manual with a

few waveforms, that I have, is an older Marquee Training manual. IIRC

these waveforms were for trouble shooting only (no cal process).


However, it may well be that there is another "flow blown" manual out

there, which I haven't found yet.







I do have the secret manufacturer's

code to enter the Service 0 menu. This isn't in the (my) service manual

either. As far as I know there is also a third (even more secret) code,

which delves even deeper into the Marquee internals. I haven't gotten

hold of this one yet. I believe only certain Electrohome (Christie, VDC)

employees have knowledge of this code, so most likely it will remain a

secret (Sorry, I can't disclose the Service 0 code, as I promised to

keep it under lock and key, and no I didn't find it on the internet and

I didn't receive it from a forum member either







)


Greets,

Reinhard


----------



## GlenC

Can any of the knowledgeable technicians and engineers tell me if the Resistors R13/R28 (400 ohm, 15 watt, 5%) should be closely matched?


On one board, one is 388 ohms (-3%) and the other is 405 ohms (+1.25%).


Since re-soldering is necessary/advisable, would it be advantageous to remove all 6 resistors and match up the closest pairs?


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *Now I'll share a real nugget.
> 
> 
> 
> First we'll start on the vertical. ..........On the early version boards, you'll see that resistors R720, R721, R820, R821, R920 and R921 are mini one (1) ohm resistors. On the later version boards, there are two of these one ohm resistors in parallel, they are the plus and minus 15 volt supply rails for the vertical output IC's. So that would mean that the early version boards had a one ohm resistor on each of the IC's supply, and the later version boards have one half ohm (1/2 ohm) on each supply rail. In other words the upgrade was a doubling up of these resistors. I only had three problems with the design of these projectors, and the use of these mickey-mouse resistors is one of them. They're supposed to be fusable metal film resistrors at 1/2 watt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ........................There are twelve of them on the convergence board (24/stacked on the later version). R118, R117, R218, R217, R318, R317, R418, R417, R518, R517, R618 and R617. There are also 48 1.2 ohm (same mickey-mouse resistors) right near the power transistors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Mike, On my vertical board, there are both configurations, R720, R820 & R920 are 1 ohm and R721, R821 & R921 are two 1 ohm. Am I correct in replacing all six positions with the double 1 ohm 1/4w 5% ?


As for the 48 1.2 ohm, I only spotted 24 on the convergence board (R168, R169, R170, R171, R269, R270, R271, R368, R369, R370, R371, R468, R469, R470, R471, R568, R569, R571, R668, R669, R670, R671) however, there are 24 of the same, in 2 ohm (R164, R165, R166, R167, R265, R266, R267, R364, R365, R366, R367, R464, R465, R466, R467, R564, R565, R567, R664, R665, R666 & R667).


----------



## Energeezer

Look back, Look way back

Earlier in the thread (page5) there was a lot odf discussion re the heater filament fix. The posters at the time were suggesting a combo of resistors plus a pot to reach the desired voltage. When reading that it struck me as being a little over complicated and I think I have a easier way.

Why not just remove the leaky pot (R2) and replace with a higher rated (larger pot) of the same value.

When I modded my PS supply all I did was remove said leaky pot.(R2) Since the new pot would never fit on the board I ran jumper wires from the board to the new pot which I installed on the side of the PS by drilling a hole in the case and mounting the new pot accordingly. This also has the advantage of easy adj access since the pot has a large adj arm.

I was able to adj the voltage in this manner with no trouble and since the new pot is rated so much higher than the original I feel the chances of a re failure arevery slim. Sorry i can not remember what the rating of the new pot was except it was 0-1K and it was a large bracket mount type as opposed to the tiny board mount original.

What do you think.


----------



## bblue




> Quote:
> Mike, On my vertical board, there are both configurations, R720, R820 & R920 are 1 ohm and R721, R821 & R921 are two 1 ohm. Am I correct in replacing all six positions with the double 1 ohm 1/4w 5% ?



They should be replaced in like values. The first three should be replaced with single 1 ohm's, and the last three should be replaced with double 1 ohm's.


There are only 24 1.2's that are actually 12 parallel pairs.


--Bill


----------



## draganm




> Quote:
> When I modded my PS supply all I did was remove said leaky pot.(R2) Since the new pot would never fit on the board I ran jumper wires from the board to the new pot which I installed on the side of the PS by drilling a hole in the case and mounting the new pot accordingly. This also has the advantage of easy adj access since the pot has a large adj arm



Can you post some pics, what is the value of the new pot? Can anyone else chime in with opinions on whether this is actually the best choice for fixing this problem? Seems like we have a lot of ideas on what's the best fix but no consensus!


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by draganm_
> *Can you post some pics, what is the value of the new pot? Can anyone else chime in with opinions on whether this is actually the best choice for fixing this problem? Seems like we have a lot of ideas on what's the best fix but no consensus!*



Seems to me that if the fix is a 1W 1K Ohm pot, then the Bourns 3290H would be the best fit fix. It's a little expensive, available from Mouser, here or review the Spec Sheet 

I have not tried this yet, my projector is very stable at 6.35V with the original pot.


----------



## Energeezer

draganm

I can't say if this is the best fix but I will say I have done 3 8500s this way and never had a problem.

I'll see if I can get some time for a pic tomorrow.

Steve


----------



## pcCinema

Bblue said:


"This time, I started calibration from that point (where it was), but first lowered brightness to 30. The net result was, basically, moving G2 up 3-5 numbers on all colors. The look of the resulting picture is completely different! The high whites look more like part of the picture, and the low blacks show more shades of gray. The whole presentation is more realistic and life-like and subtle details are clearer, as if it was higher resolution, but the resolution didn't really change."


I found the same thing prior to your post, and after first following Tims procedure, and was hoping some of these mods might fix this situation. If g2 is set on mine with brightness in the


----------



## draganm

Thank you Glen and Steve, $25.00 is kinda steep, but a heck of a lot cheaper than shipping my LVPS to another state. I have downloaded the sepcs to the Bourne and I'll ask my elect. engineer about matching up something locally. I have one more stupid question, I will need to bring a multi-meter home after this mod to check and set P14. What do they mean by "checking across P14" . The motherboard says HTR1 and HTR2, is this the circuit you check across?









BTW, the G2 versus Brite/Contr posts are very interesting. I don't think Tim meant for his instructions to be anything more than a basic/beginner type guidline. I would like to see a more advanced procedure posted as a FAQ. Of course it would only be applicable to units with fresh tubes(less than 3K hour ).

How do you all feel about the recomended drive levels? R35, G90, B50


----------



## stylinlp

I have a quick and cheap way of checking the LVPS. Just hook up a pair of car jumper cables to your truck. If the projector can start it then the voltage to is high! *grin*


Im with Dragan on this one. Can someone post a pic what the pot looks like to adjust the levels?


I've learned on there that the best way to set G2 level is to turn contrast down then stick your face in the lense. Turn up the G2 level for the tube your looking into up untill you just "barely" see the raster glow.


----------



## Energeezer

Ok Here are some Pics.

This pic is of the front of the PS installed in the PJ. You can see the silver adj arm protruding. When the PJ is buttoned up the arm is just accessable through the plug in hole.

If you are going to do this you need to make sure the arm will not hit the PJ front cover. I had to install a couple of washers on the inside to make clearence.

This is my first attempt at posting pics on any forum so be kind.


----------



## Energeezer

OK

Here is the guts. This is a 1 Watt resistor so to my thinking it should be more than robust enough to last forever.

Please if i am wrong let me know before I have a failure.


Thanks

Steve


----------



## Energeezer

Here is one more all closed up to show the importance of checking your clearence

Steve


----------



## draganm

wow great pics, thanks energeezer. Your right, that looks like a pretty slick set-up. I will see if my electronics guy is comfortable with attempting something like that.


----------



## sly

If you look back in this thread there is the correct fix for this..

The problem is not with the wattage of the pot you can put in a 1Watt 5Watt 1000Watt that does not fix the problem of the adjustment being way way to sensitive. The fix is to make the circuit have a limited range so if the pot moves a bit is does not matter. After the fix you should be able to move the pot all the way both ways and still be in the safety zone..


----------



## stylinlp

Could I get a pic of the stock pot? My TV repair main friend wants to check his new 8500 we just got in last night. We are going to check for the 6.5v but if its off a bit I want to know where the pot is to adjust this.

THanks )


----------



## mp20748

Sly, why don't you resurrect fix that you designed. It sounds like a better way to adjust the voltage, mainly because it'll keep the voltage in the safe range.


----------



## sly

This is a repost from page 9

click the link and look at the 2 images then the page should look OK


============================================================ ========

I keep getting asked about the LVPS mod I did so here it is.


This is the trace that needs to be cut.










And this is the 475 Ohm resistor installed. I used a 805 size part rated at 1/8 watts you might want to use a 1206 for more wattage just to play it safe.










Now just install a 20 ohm pot.


----------



## gerni g.

@mike parker,


have a problem when cleaning the boards with denatured alcohol.

after drying the board seems to be some kind of tacky or sticky.

when inspecting the surface there´s seems a thin layer of laquer which the alcohol is destroying.

the only way is to do the cleaning several times until the tackiness is gone.

afterwards the pcb have a matte look. before it has a shiny surface.

i found out that when using a chemistry for cleaning pcbs the result is the same.

did i miss something?


regards,


gernot


----------



## Tester007

Wondering if someone who knows calibration can post their 8000/8500 settings. I ask this because I always followed the G2 guide, but had the drive set at around 60 for all tubes. I talked to a person in town who did Ehome setups and he said that was FAR too high and they should be around 10. I was very surprised when I lowered all 3, that it still looked good and the stairstep was fine.


So I was wondering if some people who do calibration could post what the settings range 'should' be, as well as the overall bright/contrast. I know it will vary for people, but I think if I had been told to tame the drive a while ago, my tubes would have been all the better for it.


Mine are:


bright- 50

cont - 50

red drive-10 g2-71

green drive-10 g2-65

blue drive-41 g2-76


----------



## gerni g.

hi,


need a little help, please.

on a friends 8000er, i did the chip upgrade to cl449s and resoldered the 2 resistors and 2 coils. also two new e-caps were fitted.

sadly the streaking is less but not gone.

did i miss something?


regards,


gernot


----------



## andyebr

Did you do the VIM or just the neck boards?


----------



## gerni g.

hi,


just the neckboards.

after reading this thread again, maybe the 2 coils need to be replaced too?


regards,


gernot


----------



## Hiller131




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gerni g._
> *@mike parker,
> 
> 
> have a problem when cleaning the boards with denatured alcohol.
> 
> after drying the board seems to be some kind of tacky or sticky.
> 
> when inspecting the surface there?s seems a thin layer of laquer which the alcohol is destroying.
> 
> the only way is to do the cleaning several times until the tackiness is gone.
> 
> afterwards the pcb have a matte look. before it has a shiny surface.
> 
> i found out that when using a chemistry for cleaning pcbs the result is the same.
> 
> did i miss something?
> 
> 
> regards,
> 
> 
> gernot*




Gernot,

I don't know specifically about the Marquee boards as I have not examined them too much yet but many circuit boards have a Conformal coating that helps prevent corrosion of the traces on the board. I know from first hand experience (was actually trying to take the coating off) that with enough alcohol and friction from say a cotton swab the coating will come off. It should not really hurt the function of the board at all.


Steve


----------



## bblue

Gernot,

You have to get rid of all 409's in the video chain, including any in the VIM. Until you are 409-free you'll have various degrees of streaking and reduced resolution.


--Bill


----------



## gerni g.

hi bill,


the vim has h1100 in it.

also i swapped in a newer vim board with 449ers.

the streaking is still very visible.


two neckboards are 50-2000-02p issue1, the third is issue2 and this has absolutly no streaking.

when comparing the layout, they look the same.

also i replaced the coils L8 and L9 but this had no effect.


i´m wondering what i missed or is it the boards.

if there´s no remedy i need 2 replacement boards.


best regards,


gernot


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Tester007_
> *Wondering if someone who knows calibration can post their 8000/8500 settings. I ask this because I always followed the G2 guide, but had the drive set at around 60 for all tubes. I talked to a person in town who did Ehome setups and he said that was FAR too high and they should be around 10. I was very surprised when I lowered all 3, that it still looked good and the stairstep was fine.
> 
> 
> So I was wondering if some people who do calibration could post what the settings range 'should' be, as well as the overall bright/contrast. I know it will vary for people, but I think if I had been told to tame the drive a while ago, my tubes would have been all the better for it.
> 
> 
> Mine are:
> 
> 
> bright- 50
> 
> cont - 50
> 
> red drive-10 g2-71
> 
> green drive-10 g2-65
> 
> blue drive-41 g2-76*



The numbers mean nothing here, they are only relevent to the many variances of the Marquee.


There are three different board numbers for the VIM, with different part numbers for each. Each of these boards would display a different number based on the same or similar display image. Two of the board numbers have differenent analog multipliers (electronic gain controls). One of the version of the VIM has resistors added to the output of the first OP Amp's output to ground. And don't forget the condition of the tubes...


The numbers should be used to document the settings for that particular projector only. Even when we installed brand new Marquees on a multi-diplay, or stack setup, the numbers were not the same.


----------



## Bruno Lovisi




----------



## Bruno Lovisi

Time to bump this thread at the top



Brido


----------



## gerni g.

hi,


almost forgot, streaking problem fixed.

thanks to aksor, billblue and curt palme.


also i´m very delighted how stable the convergence is with the micro-ohms.

this rocks.


regards,


gernot


----------



## gerni g.

hi,


Q13 on the neckboard was the bad guy.


regards,


gernot


----------



## Bruno Lovisi

Hi,


to bump thread and :



> Quote:
> horizontal deflection module 220 mfd @ 160vdc cap (C50)



what type of cap do I have to buy ?


Thanks!


Brido


----------



## jcmccorm

Hello fellow Marquee gents!


I have a 9500LC that I'm getting ready to be ceiling-worthy so I've been reviewing this thread again to make a list of things to do and buy.


Thanks to everyone, especially Mike, for contributing to this.


I have a question/suggestion regarding the 1ohm (piggybacked) resistors on the HDM and Convergence boards. These resistors are used for power supply decoupling to keep noise from going into or out of the power supply rails on the board. Typically a designer will choose a capacitor for bypass and then a small value resistor (1/2 ohm in this case) because resistors are cheap. It seems like a ferrite bead has the potential to be better in this application since the temperature coefficient of the bead is going to be smaller (better) than the resistor. Anyone tried this?


I'll probably give this a shot unless someone has had a bad experience with using a bead in this spot. I'll need to find some way of measuring any improvement or degredation though.


Cary


----------



## CZ Eddie




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mp20748_
> *
> 
> First we'll start on the vertical.
> 
> On the early version boards, you'll see that resistors R720, R721, R820, R821, R920 and R921 are mini one (1) ohm resistors.*



My 1993 (re-mfg in 1996) 9000 with non-hinged heatsink does not have any resistors with a number higher than R1xx. There are no R7xx, R8xx or R9xx anywhere on the vertical board.


Any ideas on how to mod it in conjunction with the convergence board to ensure tight, non-drifting convergence?


ALSO, is the max4224 still the 449 replacement or is there something better now?


Thanks


----------



## HK-Steve

Can anyone help with getting some CLC449AJP


I am looking to replace the 409's.


Any help would be great,

everyone I have checked with has NO stock at all.


I am looking for 24 of them, enough to do 2 projectors.

12 for each projector is correct isn't it???


Apprecaite the help


Cheers

Steve


----------



## CZ Eddie




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by CZ Eddie_
> *My 1993 (re-mfg in 1996) 9000 with non-hinged heatsink does not have any resistors with a number higher than R1xx. There are no R7xx, R8xx or R9xx anywhere on the vertical board.
> 
> 
> Any ideas on how to mod it in conjunction with the convergence board to ensure tight, non-drifting convergence?
> *


----------



## mp20748

CZ,

I have this info in one of my folders. However, I don't have the folder at my present location. But from memory, if you're able to identify the 1 ohm resistors on both boards, then replace them with 0.47 ohm @1/2 watt, or double stack the ones that are there with another 1 ohm resistor. These resistors should be fusable, and should be placed away from the PC boards surface.


2nd. Resolder all of the power transistors on the convergence board, as well as the three output IC's on the vertical board.


3rd. apply a thin coat of patroleum jelly on the heatsinks insulator, where the transistors (convergence), and IC's (vertical) will make contact with the heatsinks.


last, but not as important, replace all 1.2 ohm resistors on either board to a 1 ohm @ 1/2 watt fusable.


-------


Steve,

CLC449's may be difficult to locate (obsolete). There's a replacement from the National Semiconductor site. I've tried the replacement, but did not like the results, but others have had good results.


----------



## HK-Steve

Thanks Mike, I have had a hard time finding the CLC449's.


I have had an offer from someone here to supply me some,

This should happen next week.


Mike, Any Ideas for my MP1 hookup onto the ATI X800?


Cheers

Steve


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by HK-Steve_
> *
> 
> 
> Mike, Any Ideas for my MP1 hookup onto the ATI X800?
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve*



I've yet to attach a mod to the new ATI X800. I'm expecting one in to transfer a mod to. I'm looking forward to getting my hands on one, because I'll need know how to do this for the soon to be released MP-1v3. So far, you and two testers are the only ones with the new MP-1.


Do you have pictures?


----------



## HK-Steve

Yes, I have already sent them through to you, a week or so ago.

Did you not get them??


I can resend if you need me to.

Let me know.


Thanks

Steve


----------



## HK-Steve

Mike, I just saw your Thread about your email problems.


I have just sent them to your AOL address,


Cheers

Steve


----------



## HK-Steve

Mike,


Do you have any details on how to hookup the MP1 to the ATI X800?


Any Impressions on the X800?


Cheers

Steve


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by HK-Steve_
> *Mike,
> 
> 
> Do you have any details on how to hookup the MP1 to the ATI X800?
> 
> 
> Any Impressions on the X800?
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve*



Not yet, I'm still waiting to get my hands on one. Someone is supposed to be sending me an X800 and I'm really looking forward to its arrival. So far I've recieved a Gforce 6800 that I've attched a MP-1 to, but I've only had time to play with it for a few minutes.


With the newer mod that you have, it's very important to use either RG59 or RG6 cables.


I believe you'd sent me a picture of that card.. I'm not sure if I've seen it, as i've had email problems, so could you send it again to the listed email (below). I'll do what I can to help you make this happen.


I've been busy with several things, but with much attention to the MP-5. I was able to test the demo power supply this past weekend, and I must say I'm very pleased with it







, it's far far better than expected.


----------



## HK-Steve

Mike,


I just sent you an email with the pictures,

Let me know if you got them.


Cheers

Steve


----------



## mrking

Another excellent thread that makes this forum without a doubt the best avforum in the world.


I thought somebody might be interested in the index I made for myself of this thread with direct links to the upgrades/mods that has been made.


I'm sure it's not complete by a longshot and if somebody wants to contribute just post below or pm me and I'll include it in my post.


It would be great if Mike could put this in the first post as well.


Hope this helps!





Updated 061114 to include bblue's changes.


*Video Neck Board (VNB)* Post #15 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...45#post1720545 


6 22 100 uF 160V 105 degree

3 MAX4224 CLC449 or Harris (Intersil) HFA1100




*Video Input Module (VIM)* Post #45 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...44#post1742044 


6 MAX4224 CLC449 or Harris (Intersil) HFA1100





*Anamorphic mod (Vert squeeze)* Post #64 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...48#post1773948 


3 56.2K ohm digikey # 56.2KXB




*High Voltage Power Supply (HVPS)* G2 Post #251 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...80#post2202280 


r9,r10,r15,r16,r21,r22 560k 2watt

r5,r46 220 ohm 2watt

c1,c2 .47uF 630V

c6,c3 1uF 400V


Allied part #

BC COMPONENTS 2222-468-28105 Capacitors, Metallized Polyester, Radial, 1.0uF, 40

0 Volts 648-3080



BC COMPONENTS 2222-468-40474 Capacitors, Metallized Polyester, Radial, 0.47uF, 6

30 Volts 648-3116



OHMITE OY564K Resistor, Ceramic, Axial, 2 Watt, 10%, 560k 296-5456


BC COMPONENTS 5083NW220R0J12AFX

Resistor, Power, Film, Axial, 2 Watt, 5%, 220 Ohms (Pack of 100) 649-6128


In the HVPS the ceramic resistors are questionable. The do seem to work ok, but resistance drifts with temperature quite easily, and they are a low voltage resistor not designed to be operated in the G2 environment of ~800v. Metal Oxide (higher voltage types) seem to be the best choice.



*Light Voltage Power Supply (LVPS)* heater fix Post #475 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...38#post3291438 


20ohm pot

digikey 3299X-200-ND 20 OHM 3/8 SQ MT SL POT


475ohm 1206




*Vertical Deflection Module (VDM)* Post #177 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...63#post1937363 


fusable metal film resistrors at 1/2 watt
R720, R721, R820, R821, R920 and R921 R5 R6

change to .5 ohm

R720,R820,R920,R5,R6 should be replaced with 1 ohm, R721,R821,R920 should be replaced with two piggybacked 1 ohm.



*Convergence Module (CVA)* Post #177 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php? 

There are twelve of them on the convergence board

R118, R117, R218, R217, R318, R317, R418, R417, R518, R517, R618 and R617 and there are also 48 24 1.2 ohm near the power transistors.

The listed resistors are 1/4 fusibles, two piggybacked.



*Horizontal Deflection Module (HDM)* Post #167 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...46#post1924546 

220 mfd @ 160vdc cap (C50)


----------



## bblue

Unfortunately, some of the conclusions that appear to be drawn are at best, outdated, and at worst, just plain wrong.


The VNB's for example, could benefit from 100uf 160v caps in place of the 22uf's (which later changed to 33uf's). And I doubt you would really want to put a MAX4224 chip in there. That one was ruled out a long time ago.


Same on the VIM wrt 4224's. And no chips will install there and work correctly without additional circuit modifications.


On the VDM, 1/4w fusibles are fine. R720,R820,R920,R5,R6 should be replaced with 1 ohm, R721,R821,R920 should be replaced with two piggybacked 1 ohm.


On the CVA, the listed resistors are 1/4 fusibles, two piggybacked, and the reference to 48 1.2 ohms is actually 24 quantity.


You may also find other updates from other threads as you get to them. This is from memory, so I might have missed an update.


Oh, yes. In the HVPS the ceramic resistors are questionable. The do seem to work ok, but resistance drifts with temperature quite easily, and they are a low voltage resistor not designed to be operated in the G2 environment of ~800v. Metal Oxide (higher voltage types) seem to be the best choice.


It's best to check your schematics and the particular Marquee you are updating to confirm what really should be installed there.


--Bill


----------



## bomber

What a great thread, thanks Mike! I hope one of these days I will be able to give as much and not just take!


Does anyone have a source for the 449's that they are willing to share? I know they are obsolete but was hoping someone has a source or a stash. I only need enough for one M8000 (6)?


----------



## WTS

 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...readid=416624. Try this thread for some info on what IC to use, MP knows which one to sub in, but he's not telling.


----------



## mp20748

I know for the past year or so I've been promising to get back to this thread. I"ve had far too many distractions to stay on top of it. So in the near future we'll pick back up on the maintenance and upgrade area's of the Marquee's.


Over the past two years I've gathered a ton of stuff to add. And from my two visits to the desert (Arizona), I've even searched through Tim Martin's huge tech stash. So I've gathered the data, but have not had the time to devote to going forward with this thread.


This time we'll go back to the VIM and neck boards. I'll suggest a few IC's to use on both. Some will need a few changes to be made to the board and some won't. We'll even look at why most chips will not be a perfect replacement.


I'll even get back to the resistors on the vertical and convergence boards, which SHOULD be replaced (not jumped). And the replacement should be better than what the tech sheet suggest, and I'll go over how we got to a better replacement and why. I may even add a few tweaks this time for these and other boards. We'll even get into the control module this time, to include grounding and other noise lowering technics.


However, there's still proprietary things I cannot discuss











BTW, most of the boards on the Marquee are being repaired. This repair work covers the VIM, NECK BOARDS, VERTICAL, HORIZONTAL, LOW VOLTAGE POWER SUPPLY, FOCUS, CONTROL, ASTIGMATOR, and we're even repairing some HIGH VOLTAGE power supplies. And in the future we hope to cover all HIGH VOLTAGE power supplies. This is a joint venture with Tim of E-Tech.


----------



## HK-Steve

Looks like it will soon be time to break out the soldering iron,


This is great news Mike,

I am especially looking forward to it,

My Marquee gets here tomorrow morning
































Cheers

Steve


----------



## mp20748

Oh yeah, it'll feel good to get back to this. Also, keep in mind that your input is also welcome. This thread on maintenance and such is just an information source from many to look over, add or use whatever is contributed. Therefore we're expecting participation from even the novice.


I'm only hoping that we can stop at some point along the way, and use a method or page that will indicate what was the final workable upgrade for the past item of discusion. That way it would be simpler to breeze through the thread, and get a good technical summery, without running with whatever is posted. I would like to see things played out where anyone would feel welcome to participate.


It's also good to see SLY posting again. I'm looking forward to him resurrecting his power supply mod. I've yet to try it, but for sure it makes more technical sense than the original design. And plus it's original.


We will keep our eyes open for anything that could cause harm to the projector, or anyone associated with it. So safety will be an issue.


----------



## cmjohnson

Tagged for detailed reading.


I tried the LMH6702MAs on the neck card myself before I read this, and they

were very bad. They oscillated like a mother and caused immense amounts

of noise and smearing in the rasters. But they're cheap chips, like $1.25 each

or something, and I may choose to explore the possibility of developing a

simple little mod to tame that shrew and allow it to be used. Maybe I'll look

into that.


CJ


----------



## htguy1

HI Mike,


Looks like it has been awhile (10-11-04) since you have posted the updated fixes for the Marquee. Is that to come any time soon?


Thanks


God bless...


Mark


----------



## Clarence

Bumped for somebody who just picked up a M8111+ with P14=6.61v


Supposedly, somewhere around page 5 is sly's fix


----------



## Clarence




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sly* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I keep getting asked about the LVPS mod I did so here it is.
> 
> 
> this is the trace that needs to be cut.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is the 475 Ohm resistor installed. I used a 805 size part rated at 1/8 watts you might want to use a 1206 for more wattage just to play it safe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now just install a 20 ohm pot.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats waht I get when I get sleepy
> 
> if you cant see the pics go to
> here
> 
> 
> that the prob with the free sites they want you to see there ads



bump


----------



## Clarence




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrking* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Another excellent thread that makes this forum without a doubt the best avforum in the world.
> 
> 
> I thought somebody might be interested in the index I made for myself of this thread with direct links to the upgrades/mods that has been made.
> 
> 
> I'm sure it's not complete by a longshot and if somebody wants to contribute just post below or pm me and I'll include it in my post.
> 
> 
> It would be great if Mike could put this in the first post as well.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps!
> 
> 
> Video Neck Board (VNB) Post #15 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...45#post1720545
> 
> 
> 6 22uF 160V 105 degree
> 
> 3 MAX4224
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video Input Module (VIM) Post #45 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...44#post1742044
> 
> 
> 6 MAX4224
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anamorphic mod (Vert squeeze) Post #64 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...48#post1773948
> 
> 
> 3 56.2K ohm digikey # 56.2KXB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High Voltage Power Supply (HVPS) G2 Post #251 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...80#post2202280
> 
> 
> r9,r10,r15,r16,r21,r22 560k 2watt
> 
> r5,r46 220 ohm 2watt
> 
> c1,c2 .47uF 630V
> 
> c6,c3 1uF 400V
> 
> 
> Allied part #
> 
> BC COMPONENTS 2222-468-28105 Capacitors, Metallized Polyester, Radial, 1.0uF, 40
> 
> 0 Volts 648-3080
> 
> 
> 
> BC COMPONENTS 2222-468-40474 Capacitors, Metallized Polyester, Radial, 0.47uF, 6
> 
> 30 Volts 648-3116
> 
> 
> 
> OHMITE OY564K Resistor, Ceramic, Axial, 2 Watt, 10%, 560k 296-5456
> 
> 
> BC COMPONENTS 5083NW220R0J12AFX
> 
> Resistor, Power, Film, Axial, 2 Watt, 5%, 220 Ohms (Pack of 100) 649-6128
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Light Voltage Power Supply (LVPS) heater fix Post #475 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...38#post3291438
> 
> 
> 20ohm pot
> 
> digikey 3299X-200-ND 20 OHM 3/8 SQ CERM MT SL POT
> 
> 
> 475ohm 1206
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vertical Deflection Module (VDM) Post #177 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...63#post1937363
> 
> 
> fusable metal film resistrors at 1/2 watt
> 
> R720, R721, R820, R821, R920 and R921 R5 R6
> 
> change to .5 ohm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Convergence Module (CVA) Post #177 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?
> 
> There are twelve of them on the convergence board
> 
> R118, R117, R218, R217, R318, R317, R418, R417, R518, R517, R618 and R617 and there are also 48 1.2 ohm near the power transistors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Horizontal Deflection Module (HDM) Post #167 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...46#post1924546
> 
> 220 mfd @ 160vdc cap (C50)



bump


Light Voltage Power Supply (LVPS) heater fix Post #475 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...38#post3291438 

20ohm pot

digikey 3299X-200-ND 20 OHM 3/8 SQ CERM MT SL POT

475ohm 1206


----------



## draganm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mp20748* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's also good to see SLY posting again. I'm looking forward to him resurrecting his power supply mod. I've yet to try it, but for sure it makes more technical sense than the original design. And plus it's original.



i've been using Sly's mod ever since I started doing the LVPS P14 fix and it works excellent. I use a slightly looser resistor and mount it to the bottom of the board, but that's just personal preference. After the mod, the adjustment screw behaves very well, unlike the stock set-up which seems a little jumpy and way to coarse for dialing in exactly 6.35 volts.


----------



## Darren Wadsworth

I am ready to mod my PJ but:


I looked over the LVPS mod and could not figure something out.


How does the 20 ohm POT get attached to the LVPS?

Also, where do I mount the POT to the PJ? Pictures?


Could someone help out please?


Thanks everyone!


Darren


----------



## Hiller131

Darren,


I just soldered a pot into the same holes as the old one. Just use a decient pot and you will be all set. I haven't had any problems with the P14 voltage since I did the mod.


Steve


----------



## Darren Wadsworth

I measured the P14 voltage and got 6.42. Do I still need to correct and/or mod the LVPS?


Or can I just adjust the current pot and check again in a month or so?


Eager to get it hung up...!


Darren


----------



## sarahstaar

I would love to have the neck board mod done to my projector but my experience in electronics is rather limited !!!


I have an early marquee 8000 , where could i get this done i live in England .



Maybe i could fedex the boards to the US ???


Or could i print out the notes above and take it with my neck boards to my TV Repair shop ???




Anyone want some freelance work ???


Don't have huge sums of mony though


----------



## CZ Eddie

Just a bump to make sure this doesn't eventually fall into the archives.









And because I have a Marquee again.










Anyone want to PM me an offer to solder all the updates for me?


----------



## madpoet

Glad I found it before I hung mine


----------



## draganm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *316* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh, do I have a lot of reading to do
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , just in time sorta...I guess I should have read it BEFORE I hung the Marquee



nahhh, Marquee' are so easy to work on it dosen't even matter if theyr'e on the ceiling. I I upgarded my VIM and neck-cards on the ceiling in 30 minutes, and have even replaced yokes on the ceiling. This is an awesome thread, each time I read it i'm able to digest a little more.


----------



## 316

draganm, thanks again for the link! I have a crane built in to the ceiling should I need to remove the PJ. Might not have to for a while though.


I guess I should read before I ask these questions so please forgive me if its already addressed in this thread:


Eddie might be able to chime in but how do you know what mods or upgrades are done by Christie Digital?


The MP mod is a good one I'm sure, but I'll tell you one thing right now that I am not impressed with is the sharpness of this 9500LC. Its not completely dialed in yet and I'm eventually going to have it calibrated but as it stands right now my Ampro4600HD kicked its you know what. What are the primary things that affect the sharpness? Other than tube type which is obvious. I think, lol.


Okay on to the reading....


----------



## CZ Eddie

Aron, have you adjusted the magnets yet? You will want to do that. Let me know if you need the setup guides for doing that. I've accumulated all the ones posted here, I'm sure.


Regarding the Ultra factory mods, those can be found with a search but the big ones are LVPS filament fixed, bandwidth raised, 16x9 done, added geometry adjustments to make it easier to setup a proper screen and also something was done to increase sharpness. Tim could tell you more!


----------



## JustGreg

BUMP


As flattering as it is to my ego, I've been getting PM's from people with their first Marquee's (I hate the word newb) regarding some of the excellent info contained in this thread; specifically the P14 filament voltage fix. As it's been a couple months since this was on the front page, I thought it appropriate to bump it back into the main conciousness for their sake.


For Marquee folks just joining us, go to page 18 of this thread. At the top will be some most excellent pics from Sly showing his version of the P14 filament voltage fix, and for everthing relating to the upgrades (not mods perse`) mentioned in the previous 17 pages, Clarence has kindly taken the time to join all the pertinent info into an informal sticky reply.


I find myself going back to this every couple weeks to see how much more things are "clicking" for me as I spend time over and under the hood of my 8500.


BTW, Have we gone as far as we can with this thread without getting into proprietary mods? I hope not. I'd like to do as much as I can with/to my pj before The Invasion of the Bulbies takeover and/or parts cost too much to keep it alive.


----------



## JustGreg

BUMP


As flattering as it is to my ego, I've been getting PM's from people with their first Marquee's (I hate the word newb) regarding some of the excellent info contained in this thread; specifically the P14 filament voltage fix. As it's been a couple months since this was on the front page, I thought it appropriate to bump it back into the main conciousness for their sake.


For Marquee folks just joining us, go to page 18 of this thread. At the top will be some most excellent pics from Sly showing his version of the P14 filament voltage fix, and for everthing relating to the upgrades (not mods perse`) mentioned in the previous 17 pages, Clarence has kindly taken the time to join all the pertinent info into an informal sticky reply.


I find myself going back to this every couple weeks to see how much more things are "clicking" for me as I spend time over and under the hood of my 8500.


BTW, Have we gone as far as we can with this thread without getting into proprietary mods? I hope not. I'd like to do as much as I can with/to my pj before The Invasion of the Bulbies takeover and/or parts cost too much to keep it alive.


----------



## Ridebreck




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JustGreg* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BUMP
> 
> 
> As flattering as it is to my ego, I've been getting PM's from people with their first Marquee's (I hate the word newb) regarding some of the excellent info contained in this thread; specifically the P14 filament voltage fix. As it's been a couple months since this was on the front page, I thought it appropriate to bump it back into the main conciousness for their sake.
> 
> 
> For Marquee folks just joining us, go to page 18 of this thread. At the top will be some most excellent pics from Sly showing his version of the P14 filament voltage fix, and for everthing relating to the upgrades (not mods perse`) mentioned in the previous 17 pages, Clarence has kindly taken the time to join all the pertinent info into an informal sticky reply.
> 
> 
> I find myself going back to this every couple weeks to see how much more things are "clicking" for me as I spend time over and under the hood of my 8500.
> 
> 
> BTW, Have we gone as far as we can with this thread without getting into proprietary mods? I hope not. I'd like to do as much as I can with/to my pj before The Invasion of the Bulbies takeover and/or parts cost too much to keep it alive.




In post #506, Mike Parker stated that he had a bunch of additional stuff that he wanted to get around to posting, so it sounds like at least at that point in time there was more non-proprietary items. That situation may very well be different now. It sure would be nice to have another run at additional items, though.


----------



## madpoet

I know I'm certainly starting down the mod path soon, so I'm always interested in anything I can try!


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *madpoet* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I know I'm certainly starting down the mod path soon, so I'm always interested in anything I can try!



Didn't you just have Terry up to calibrate that PJ? If so, I wouldn't make any changes till you're prepaired to have it re-calibrated again


Chip


----------



## tse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dirk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For those of you who wants to build up the gamma correction; here it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Does it make sense to build a gamma correction for green and red too?




I get the feeling that the purpose of the blue gamma is not fully understood. The Marquee was designed when the CRT projector was about the only game in town. Back then there were "spec" wars with each manufacturer trying to outspec the other. Light output was one of the specs that Electrohome decided was important. With a projector without any gamma correction what happens when you start driving the system hard? The blue output doesn't keep up with the other colors and the image starts turning yellowish. Electrohome decided to boost the higher level blue output to keep up with the green and red. Attached is a simulation of the blue gamma circuit showing linear input vs output.


----------



## madpoet




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Didn't you just have Terry up to calibrate that PJ? If so, I wouldn't make any changes till you're prepaired to have it re-calibrated again
> 
> 
> Chip




I'm not talking anything radical Chip







. Just if there's little things I can do to improve the picture already.


----------



## rajdude

guys, I do not understand one thing...if marquees need so much modifications/fixes to work correctly...why does everyone love them so much here?


Also, everyday I see some one asking for help about this or that issue with their Marquee. I think it will be safe to say that they are not very reliable PJs. Maybe they are down there, right with the Ampros.


I hear a 9500LC may be a contender for the G90's crown, but with all these issues...REALLY ??????



Or I am getting something wrong?


----------



## Ridebreck




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> guys, I do not understand one thing...if marquees need so much modifications/fixes to work correctly...why does everyone love them so much here?
> 
> 
> Also, everyday I see some one asking for help about this or that issue with their Marquee. I think it will be safe to say that they are not very reliable PJs. Maybe they are down there, right with the Ampros.
> 
> 
> I hear a 9500LC may be a contender for the G90's crown, but with all these issues...REALLY ??????
> 
> 
> 
> Or I am getting something wrong?



They work fine without these tweaks. The tweaks, as I understand them just help to make the image cleaner and more stable. Granted, there are things like the filament voltage that some machines require (mine being one of them), but other than that and the vertical squeeze mod, mine is as stock as they come.


I love my Marquee for two reasons. 1.) I got it for a great price, and 2.) spare parts are abundant.


----------



## JustGreg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> guys, I do not understand one thing...if marquees need so much modifications/fixes to work correctly...why does everyone love them so much here?
> 
> 
> Also, everyday I see some one asking for help about this or that issue with their Marquee. I think it will be safe to say that they are not very reliable PJs. Maybe they are down there, right with the Ampros.
> 
> 
> I hear a 9500LC may be a contender for the G90's crown, but with all these issues...REALLY ??????
> 
> 
> 
> Or I am getting something wrong?



I don't have acces to the total number of Marquee's sold that are out there still alive but logic dicates that if there are greater numbers of them than any other brand you'll hear more about them.


My 8500 has only had a couple basic updates and yet I'm still in awe of the pq; my amateurish setup and calibration notwithstanding.


As far as alot of requets for help I think you'll find those are mainly from new Marquee owners who are overwhelmed with the initial complexities of getting a watchable pic; and don't yet know how to find answers with the accursedly lame search function.


Mike has had a full plate from the sounds but that's cool with me. I bought a great soldering station, I'm getting a 150Mhz scope, and I'm gonna learn how to use them both proficiently and be ready for him to pick this thread up again.


----------



## Maurizio Prandi

bump.


I just own an ECP but this thread is so interesting I think it diserves not to fall back.


----------



## PiDD

Bump,


I just picked up Energeezer's 8500ultra and just finished 18 pages of reading!! What a great thread. It kinda ends with Mike saying he will start up the next round but then silence!


Any change this will get lit back up? I know there are Marquee owners out there that would love to plug in their soldering irons again!


How about it Mike?


----------



## Joust

does anybody have all these gems in a more "Formatted" document?

This thread is full of very good info but its hard to glean from all the chaff.


----------



## Tester007

I doubt it will continue on much more. Most of these 'mods/upgrades' are now being sold so there is not much incentive to give away free.


----------



## draganm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PiDD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any change this will get lit back up? I know there are Marquee owners out there that would love to plug in their soldering irons again!
> 
> How about it Mike?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tester007* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I doubt it will continue on much more. Most of these 'mods/upgrades' are now being sold so there is not much incentive to give away free.



There's a lot more to it than just that. All the previous stuff talked about can be done by a person with basic soldering skills. the changes that are being done now to the VIM and neck-cards are very, very advanced. I have some V2 cards here fo Beta testing and I can tell you the amount of work on them is astounding. entire sections of the board are de-populated and many very-small SMD chips are replaced. Picture trying to solder a centipede's legs to a very delicate circuit board.









Even someone with very advanced soldering skills should think twice about attempting to do some of these changes. Even if MP won the lottery and didn't need to pay the rent, putting this info out on the forum would result in dozen's of ruined cards from newbs taking an iron to their boards.

Trust me on this one, if you really want to improve your Marquee's video performance just buyt he boards. They are well worth it, I will posting a comprehensive review later on tonight.


----------



## cmjohnson

I agree, these mods are strictly for someone with advanced soldering and assembly skills, and I mean advanced skills with SURFACE MOUNT components.


I'm able, but then again, I have a surface mount rework station that has gotten plenty of use..


----------



## Gino AUS




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *draganm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> have some V2 cards here fo Beta testing.....



I thought that these are already final according to MP and Tim?? v2 is already installed in both my Ultra's


----------



## draganm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I thought that these are already final according to MP and Tim?? v2 is already installed in both my Ultra's



it's a long story, mike sent me the V2 months ago and I was planning to show them in a local HT meet. Well my plans unfolded very slowly, I built a new bigger screen, moved the PJ and did a full set-up, and even mucked around with my audio. It took a lot longer than I thought it would but it turned out very well, the HT meet was a big success.


----------



## mark haflich

Nothing is ever final in the world of after market product modifications. Modders have new insights, get better test equipment, new better parts come along, etc etc etc etc. Its not final until the modder never touches the thing again.


I had a friend, who is now dead, whot was a famous tone ar designer and manufacturer. He would often call me late in the evening with news of another change to his product that significantly improved the sound. Who would have though, he would say, that making this one more small change could significantly improve his masterpiece.This happened on a continual basis.


Who would have thought removing this needless relay, this slight change to the design of a previous mod, inserting this newer chip, etc etc. But that's the way it goes in the world of CRT modifications. And with respect to a Marquee the video circuits are a VIM, the three neckboards, and the connecting RGB wires. The boards are complex and areas on them can be improved by a variety of methods. Who would of thought that changing this to that could make such a difference. There always will be a better way. The modder will learn more and discover more. analysis after the fact will result in the reason why.


----------



## Gino AUS

Mark, point taken, however MP tells me he is satisfied with his work on the Marquee's and probably won't do any further modifications to them


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I thought that these are already final according to MP and Tim?? v2 is already installed in both my Ultra's



The lastest verion (V2) is more recent than thought. You would have the latest upgrades that would include the changes to the neck boards. The lastest changes would have been made after my visit to VDC. When there I picked up a test nugget from Scott that has allowed me to take things to another level. So your boards were shipped after my visit to VDC, therefore you're current. However, at Dragon's HT meet there were concerns of gamma or having to increase the brightness to bring out shadow detail. That's not something that we've experienced during my testing, and everytime an issue is mentioned, I feel I should look into it. Dragon has an 03 VIM. You have 02's. They're a little different from each other, and in some cases the y perform slightly different from each other depending on the variables (source device, etc).


The noted brightness issue was a concern coming from an HTPC. Mainly because V2 is my "Super" mods. I also called it "Perect Gamma" But with Dragons indication that it may need a gamma circuit, that made me take another look at things... I'll be sending him another 03 VIM to evaluate and compare to the one he has. One of the changes (gamma) that I made to the lastest version I did not implement in the ones that were sent out. I honestly did not feel it was necessary. The board that I'll be sending out today or tomorrow for comaprision, should eliminate any doubt about gamma being a problem. Let's see what he has to say after he gets the board. Not sure if this is the same problem with the verson boards (02) that you have, so I'll be checking an 02 board today, and if it needs the changes, I'll ship you two upgraded VIM's that would have the same changes made.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tester007* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I doubt it will continue on much more. Most of these 'mods/upgrades' are now being sold so there is not much incentive to give away free.



Actually, there's nothing in this thread that's being used in my lastest mods. I've made some slight recommendations for performance changes, and they would make for changes to some degree, but it's nothing that I'm using now, or at the time that I was doing this thread.


I would like to continue with this thread, and have acquired a lot more tech stuff to post, but doubt that I'll have the time to stay with it consistantly.






> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joustman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> does anybody have all these gems in a more "Formatted" document?
> 
> This thread is full of very good info but its hard to glean from all the chaff.



Someone had condensed the thread and sent it to me, but i can't find it.


----------



## Gino AUS

MP... so I have the latest version of your mods except for the gamma fix?? or are you saying my 02 VIM may not need this? can you keep me posted if you do find it needs a fix, so I can send both out to you asap before I get my setup pro calibrated. Thanks Mike!


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gino AUS* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> MP... so I have the latest version of your mods except for the gamma fix??



Yes, you're good there. And if I find that the 02's would need the gamma upgrade, I'll send you a prime set of 02's. Just send the two that you have back to me once you get them.


----------



## Ridebreck




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mp20748* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The lastest verion (V2) is more recent than thought. You would have the latest upgrades that would include the changes to the neck boards. The lastest changes would have been made after my visit to VDC. When there I picked up a test nugget from Scott that has allowed me to take things to another level. So your boards were shipped after my visit to VDC, therefore you're current. However, at Dragon's HT meet there were concerns of gamma or having to increase the brightness to bring out shadow detail. That's not something that we've experienced during my testing, and everytime an issue is mentioned, I feel I should look into it. Dragon has an 03 VIM. You have 02's. They're a little different from each other, and in some cases the y perform slightly different from each other depending on the variables (source device, etc).
> 
> 
> The noted brightness issue was a concern coming from an HTPC. Mainly because V2 is my "Super" mods. I also called it "Perect Gamma" But with Dragons indication that it may need a gamma circuit, that made me take another look at things... I'll be sending him another 03 VIM to evaluate and compare to the one he has. One of the changes (gamma) that I made to the lastest version I did not implement in the ones that were sent out. I honestly did not feel it was necessary. The board that I'll be sending out today or tomorrow for comaprision, should eliminate any doubt about gamma being a problem. Let's see what he has to say after he gets the board. Not sure if this is the same problem with the verson boards (02) that you have, so I'll be checking an 02 board today, and if it needs the changes, I'll ship you two upgraded VIM's that would have the same changes made.



Hmm....gamma tweaks eh? I've been meaning to shoot you an email...


----------



## Tester007




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mp20748* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually, there's nothing in this thread that's being used in my lastest mods. I've made some slight recommendations for performance changes, and they would make for changes to some degree, but it's nothing that I'm using now, or at the time that I was doing this thread.



I remember doing the smt chips on the neckboards (can't remember the numbers but think they were op-amps) a while ago..you saying you no longer update these in your mods to neckboard?

I am about to get a 9500 and would want to get modded parts, so do you have a listing of what 'is' changed in each so a person could compare and do some of what you say is missing, but posted earlier on?


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ridebreck* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmm....gamma tweaks eh? I've been meaning to shoot you an email...



When you do your next HT meet, be mindful to remind me of it. I'll send you a complete (VIM/Neck Boards) board set.


Make sure you have both Dave and Phil present, and then you could do a comparison between my mods and Greg's. Have him also send you his modded neck boards.






> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tester007* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I remember doing the smt chips on the neckboards (can't remember the numbers but think they were op-amps) a while ago..you saying you no longer update these in your mods to neckboard?
> 
> I am about to get a 9500 and would want to get modded parts, so do you have a listing of what 'is' changed in each so a person could compare and do some of what you say is missing, but posted earlier on?



If you want to replace the CLC449's, you can do that with Harris (Intersil) HFA1100's. They're basically the same bandwidth and would work well.


I've used several different op amps in that same circuit, but it's not an easy thing to do. If you go with anything other than the HFA1100, you'll more likely have to make changes to the surrounding circuits. And that could take months to get right. So it's best to go with the HFA100.


----------



## Tester007

I think the 1100 is what we all decided on and used...sounds familiar now.


But anyways, you saying that most of the upgrades discussed are 'not' part of the mods people can purchase? I would assume the modded parts must come pretty well with all the newer OEM/aftermarket parts that this thread has been upgrading to make them worth modding in the first place. Having a list of what parts were 'not' done (I can understand if you want to stay clear of listing what you 'do' do), that could be done, would be helpful for someone that gets all the mods but still can do a couple other things from this thread to tweak, or do you suggest mods only and leave everything else as is?

All the power to tweakers, but it seems like a bit of a waste for a person who wants to go all the way to video nirvana, to go through the thread, risk damaging parts trying to do smt work, then also buy mods if they make all that mucking around a waste of time.


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tester007* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But anyways, you saying that most of the upgrades discussed are 'not' part of the mods people can purchase?



Corect. the exception being "upgrades" - in that if an upgrade is needed, it would be implimented to that "modded board" during to mod process.





> Quote:
> I would assume the modded parts must come pretty well with all the newer OEM/aftermarket parts that this thread has been upgrading to make them worth modding in the first place
















> Quote:
> All the power to tweakers, but it seems like a bit of a waste for a person who wants to go all the way to video nirvana, to go through the thread, risk damaging parts trying to do smt work, then also buy mods if they make all that mucking around a waste of time.



That's the main reason why this thread is about "maintenance" and "upgrades".


We've also been very careful to stay away from performance tweaking, etc. So if one seeks "video nirvana" this is not the thread for it.


----------



## PiDD

Correct me if I am wrong but the thread to this point has really been about updating the Marquee to incorporate a lot of what the late model ones have. More of a preventive maintenance and clean up a few electrohome short comings. Is this correct?


Now Mike is selling his mods and thats great ... he has shared a few points of wisdem here and there. .. Thanks Mike!


What I am really after is what we have to do to improve the picture of a late model (1999) Marquee ultra. I have some NEW tubes coming in tomorrow (Thanks Terry) and would like to get everything out of them that I can.


So maybe Mike can outline an upgrade path on what info he can share and what he sells. What is our biggest bang for the buck? VIM? Neck boards? I never see a price for Mike's mods... is this public? If not Mike can you PM me?


What are other Marquee guys doing out there? Has anyone made improvements they would like to share? (I will admit and can solder but I'm no jedi with the tool)


----------



## Tester007

I think this thread started out as mainrenance, things to check to make sure you are not frying things, to get a longer life out of the PJ. Somewhere along the way it turned into what I also thought was just more 'updating' the older parts to what the newer PJ's had and it was great to do the things and actually learn more about the PJ..many thanks to Mike.


But I am looking at getting a 9500lc and just don't have the time (or really the inclination) to rip it apart and work on all the boards. BUT, having said that I would if there was something 'extra' I could do that would make a big dif to 'go along with' the modded boards I would have done or buy by Mike/Tim. So Mike, ya seem to skirt it..so is Tim the guy to ask what 'isn't' included even if it is just maintenance related? It would be nice to have a checklist to go along with mods just to make sure all other parts, voltages..etc are cool before mounting it 10 feet into a hole in the roof..


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tester007* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So Mike, ya seem to skirt it..so is Tim the guy to ask what 'isn't' included even if it is just maintenance related? It would be nice to have a checklist to go along with mods just to make sure all other parts, voltages..etc are cool before mounting it 10 feet into a hole in the roof..



Actually the Marquee is fine as is. What we've been posting here is just tweaks and such that could make things better, but not necessarily.


A lot of what had been shared on this, was based on experiences from others on the Marquee and when I was working with them on my full time jobs. Since I've left those jobs, there have been tech bulletins that covered other things. And now that the Marquee is in the hands of the folk at VDC, there'll still be tech bulletins to come.


The Marquee is the only CRT projector to exceed being in production over a 10 year period. So of course, there's always going to be an upgrade or some other change that can be made to it. However, once you get past the first units made (1993/1994) they were really good units. And as such, there's really nothing to be that concerned about with units after 1994.


Tim has a bunch of stuff on the Marquees, and he shares what he has and knows openly on the forum. For a projector that has been in production for over 10 years, it doing very good as is. And if there's a failure, a solution is also easy to find.


The first and most important thing to do with a marquee, is make sure it has the upgraded filament pot. Beyond that, it's all easy.


----------



## Tester007

Cool..thanks Mike. I noticed you do not have a banner..so do I just contact you directly when I do the 9500 jump?


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tester007* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Cool..thanks Mike. I noticed you do not have a banner..so do I just contact you directly when I do the 9500 jump?



The contact for mods is Tim. And if you purchase a 9500 from him, I'll work with you on some of the things that you mentioned..


----------



## kal

Update: With Mike's permission, the Marquee Maintenence information in the preceding 10 pages has been extracted and summarized here:

http://www.curtpalme.com/Marquee_Maintenance1.shtm 


Thanks for forum member Joustman (Barry) for doing the extraction work!


The website will be updated as pertinent info is added here.


Kal


----------



## Joust

Thanks Kal.

Anyone who has suggestions for modification or improvement can send me a PM or email to Joust_^[email protected]^_sympatico_^-.-^_ca and I'll be happy to consider and update the doc accordingly.


----------



## PiDD

thank Kal, One thing that might help (would help me) is if you put the value of the replacement parts. For example the LVPS uses 560K ohm resistor but what are the cap values. If you could give some digi-key part numbers that would be great!.


thanks


----------



## kal

Hi PiDD,


560K ohm in the LVPS? I just re-read what Mike wrote for the LVPS and I don't see anything about a 560K resistor or caps at all... all he talks about is the tube filament (heater) fix.


Afraid I can't do that myself... I'm only transposing what Mike wrote himself.


Kal


----------



## Joust




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PiDD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> thank Kal, One thing that might help (would help me) is if you put the value of the replacement parts. For example the LVPS uses 560K ohm resistor but what are the cap values. If you could give some digi-key part numbers that would be great!.
> 
> 
> thanks



Hmm, maybe 560k was a bad example. I searched my entire doc and couldn't find that. I understand what you mean though. I can add these types of things. But honestly common resistors and caps can be found anywhere. I thought i'd only provide sources for more hard to find parts. I suppose it would not hurt to give a link and more experienced readers will go to their fav place regardless.

links also have a tendancy to go dead over time.


----------



## kal

I agree with Joustman - Sourcing the common parts like resistors/caps/etc should be the easy part, and external links are always changing. I'd suggest looking at large electronic stors like Digikey, Mouser, etc if you need common parts.


My feeling's always been that these procedures that Mike P. has put together are meant for hobbiests that are familiar with electronics and already do some of this stuff on the side. If someone understands Mike's instructions then they'll already know where to source the common parts.


This is why I prefaced the procedures with the following words: _Note: The procedures outlined in this section require a good knowledge of electronics and soldering._


Kal


----------



## PiDD

Sorry Guys my bad .. i meant the HVPS as depicted here...











The Caps here...










I agree I could get the resistors pretty easy but would like some help with the caps.


----------



## mp20748




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PiDD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I agree I could get the resistors pretty easy but would like some help with the caps.



Leave the caps in, and put a 1500pf/1600vdc cap on each (parallel) of the orange (C1/C2) caps.


That's a good and later version HVPS, but it still should have the two 220 ohm carbon resistors (R5/R46) replaced. And whenever they appear burnt, it's critical.


When replacing, try not to use carbon composite, and never use metal film there.


Oh, and those 560k's that you have in the photo is fine, if they were carbon composite, only then would they be good candidates for change.


----------



## mrking

Bump!


I updated the index i made of this thread in post #502 to include bblue's changes that was posted in the next post since I've noticed that this index I did has been circulating around different forums without reference to the changes bblue suggested.

What I dd was I added his changes and crossed over the previous recommendations in case some one wants to know what was recommended earlier.



You can find the index here.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post4453989 


Please let me know if something is incorrect and if you want me to add something and I'll edit the post asap.


So the MAX4224 was ruled out? Does that leave us with the CLC449 or Harris (Intersil) HFA1100 as the only replacements?


----------



## nashou66

Hi Everyone i found a source for about 20 CLC 449's for 9.08 per chip if i order all. i'll order and if any one wants the ones i dont use let me know.


Athanasios


----------



## Pascal ht

Hello Nashou66


Thank you for your offer.

I am interested in buying at least 3 CLC 449.

I' ve sent you a Private Message.


Pascal


----------



## CZ Eddie

*Bump* so this thread won't get archived anytime soon.


----------



## nashou66

Good idea Eddie!


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Now for the convergence board. This board is very well designed, with only one exception, yep, they used the same little mickey mouse resistors on this board. The early version boards had one each, while the later version boards had a double stack. There are twelve of them on the convergence board (24/stacked on the later version). R118, R117, R218, R217, R318, R317, R418, R417, R518, R517, R618 and R617. There are also 48 1.2 ohm (same mickey-mouse resistors) right near the power transistors.



mike would these resistors cause a non convergance problem if they went bad? like in my post here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=849010 


also which failed resistor would cause this?


Athanasios


----------



## CZ Eddie

Athanasios, I hope you get your answer soon.


Btw, to add to this thread... this is what I posted over at Curt's forum:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CZ Eddie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Guys, it's "maintenence", not "maintenance". So if you do any searching on yahoo or google for the term, try both words for maximum hits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, I sent www.digikey.com an email requesting a quote and they returned one to me. But I still have to clarify how long it would take to get parts mailed out.
> 
> 
> In the meantime, I'll post the list of parts that digikey has. I didn't search for the LVPS, VIM or Neckboard mods, since Tim at www.etechvideo.com modified my LVPS for the filament voltage and noise reduction, and Mike Parker modifed my VIM & Neckboards already.
> 
> 
> So here is my parts list. Keep in mind that I'm not enough of a tech to know if every part will work or not. Most of the stuff in the marquee list on the other thread, was located. A couple items I had to guess on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 14 each for *Vertical Board* (6x2 + 2)
> 
> DIGIKEY Part # PPC.68BCT-ND
> *RES .68 OHM .50W 5% MF FUSIBLE*
> 
> $0.94 each
> 
> 
> 24 each for *Convergence Board* (12x2)
> 
> DIGIKEY Part # PPC.68BCT-ND
> *RES .68 OHM .50W 5% MF FUSIBLE*
> 
> $0.94 each
> 
> 
> 48 each for *Convergence Board*
> 
> DIGIKEY Part # PPC1.5BCT-ND
> *RES 1.5 OHM .50W 5% MF FUSIBLE*
> 
> $0.51 each
> 
> 
> 2 each for *HVPS*
> 
> DIGIKEY Part # BC1806-ND
> *CAP FILM MKT 1UF 400VDC 10%*
> 
> $1.11 each
> 
> 
> 2 each for *HVPS*
> 
> DIGIKEY Part # BC1872-ND
> *CAP FILM MMKP .47UF 630VDC 5%*
> 
> $1.92 each
> 
> 
> 6 each for *HVPS*
> 
> DIGIKEY Part # OY564KE-ND
> *RES CERAMIC COMP 560K OHM 2W*
> 
> $1.22 each
> 
> 
> 2 each for *HVPS*
> 
> DIGIKEY Part # PPC220W-2CT-ND
> *RES 220 OHM METAL FILM 2W 5%*
> 
> $0.60 each
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It all came out to ~$105 plus $5 shipping. Still waiting to find out how long it'll take to get shipped. All parts were listed as "in stock", but the quote they sent me made it *appear* as though some parts would take six months before they are mailed out. I'll confirm and report back.
> 
> 
> The minimum quantities are very low. The highest minimum quantity was like 10 of the item. So it doesn't look like a group purchase will really be needed? I don't have the spare cash this week, so it'll be awhile before I place my order.
Click to expand...


----------



## nashou66

I think this should be added to the maintenance list, scroll down tot he board pics for *clm* maintanance.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...light=clm+mods 


Athanasios


----------



## jujosaar

I just HAD to bump this up by asking some silly questions and being lazy at the same time.


Has anyone tried the LMH6703 ?


I recently did almost all maintenance procedures for my EHM8000 posted here including the change of CLC409 to LMH6702.


Since the LMH6702 is considered faulty should I try the LMH6703 (thanks for the advice, MP! ) and if so, how will I know (do I see it in the picture or what) if I should change the feedback resistor value or not? What about replacing the feedback resistor with a network of a lin. potentiometer and a resistor to find a proper value?











Here's my baby. She used to be all gray but not anymore


----------



## mark haflich

Nice black paint job.


----------



## jujosaar

No, it does not reflect anything in the HT. And the reason it's white is my wife and our white wood ceiling. Black would just stand out too much. This being a little "bling-bling" (should I add some of that gold paint I got back there?)


----------



## mark haflich

Just kidding. It looks great.


----------



## 1031




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jujosaar* /forum/post/11804641
> 
> 
> What about replacing the feedback resistor with a network of a lin. potentiometer and a resistor to find a proper value?



Hello. Not good idea.. Feedback resistor should be as small as it can be. So you can test with small (0,25w-0.5w) normal resistor. But when you have found right value then use smd-resistor. High speed op-amps dont like any extra capacitance/inductance..


----------



## jujosaar

I think I'll order three LMH6703 and start with replacing just one and see if I can see a difference between a LMH6702, 1100 and the LMH6703.


----------



## nashou66

If anyone wants the CLC449 chips i'm trying to get a larger order to maybe bring the price down right now they can be had for 9- 10 bucks each. lets get a list going. I'll be going toi greece for three weeks form december 2nd to the 23rd so it be nice to try to get the order in before i go and then i can send them out after i get back. the more we get the better the price i think. lets hope.


Athanasios


Edit:: I no longer plan to use these, i think there might be a better replacement


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jujosaar* /forum/post/11811169
> 
> 
> I think I'll order three LMH6703 and start with replacing just one and see if I can see a difference between a LMH6702, 1100 and the LMH6703.



So whats the news? Do either of the LMH670X's work? i have 9 of the 6702 but have not tried them since mike said they are not tottaly right with out some resistor and possible cap changes. I guess he wants or likes a direct pop in and what ever became of the Max's? i know a single resistor change for the neck boards but how about on the vims, and the older vims too(2006-02p)?


Athnasios


----------



## jujosaar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/12483161
> 
> 
> So whats the news? Do either of the LMH670X's work? i have 9 of the 6702 but have not tried them since mike said they are not tottaly right with out some resistor and possible cap changes. I guess he wants or likes a direct pop in and what ever became of the Max's? i know a single resistor change for the neck boards but how about on the vims, and the older vims too(2006-02p)?
> 
> 
> Athnasios



Now, let me be clear on this.


Do NOT test the 6702 or the 6703. It's a waste of your time. You CAN try to make them work ok, but I bet the picture quality or bandwidth will remain the same or worse.


The 6703 seems to work as a direct substitute but had some issues compared to the 1100 and 449.


The 6702 is a piece of crap. At first it seems to give more gain and a sharper picture but the truth is it doesn't. DON'T use it!


As for VIM, I do not know if they do anything there.


Truth is, I should have:

a) VNB's that have GOOD transistors and other stuff.. The VNB's I have now are first generation crap.

b) At least one VNB for reference.

c) A later model PJ in good condition.

d) An oscilloscope.


And I have none of the above, so I'm shooting in the dark here.


If you have something to ask before I have these, ask MP or 1031.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jujosaar* /forum/post/12551150
> 
> 
> Now, let me be clear on this.
> 
> 
> Do NOT test the 6702 or the 6703. It's a waste of your time. You CAN try to make them work ok, but I bet the picture quality or bandwidth will remain the same or worse.
> 
> 
> The 6703 seems to work as a direct substitute but had some issues compared to the 1100 and 449.
> 
> 
> The 6702 is a piece of crap. At first it seems to give more gain and a sharper picture but the truth is it doesn't. DON'T use it!
> 
> 
> As for VIM, I do not know if they do anything there.
> 
> 
> Truth is, I should have:
> 
> a) VNB's that have GOOD transistors and other stuff.. The VNB's I have now are first generation crap.
> 
> b) At least one VNB for reference.
> 
> c) A later model PJ in good condition.
> 
> d) An oscilloscope.
> 
> 
> And I have none of the above, so I'm shooting in the dark here.
> 
> 
> If you have something to ask before I have these, ask MP or 1031.



Thanks for the clarification. I have some of the max chip comming and will try those. I'm just playing around with the older neck card and vims just for fun and learning experiance.The specs sheets for both do say to use different value feedback resistors and some difrent caps than the original design of the vime and VNB use, but i dont think i want to go into trying to change all that and find the perfect values. if i mess up a old vim or neck card noone will get mad.










Athanasios


----------



## nashou66

Would this be a good choice for a clc449 replacement?

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa695.pdf 


And what value feed back resistor would be used? 523 ohm?


Athanasios


----------



## 1031

Funny..I got those opa`s here and i have tested those, not yet with good results. But that seems to be best canditate so far. Test/tweaking time is biggest issue right now







That is so time consuming...


----------



## nashou66

what feed back resitor are you using? the data sheets say 511 for a +2 gain. Isnt that what we want?

Also where have you tried them? Vim or VNB's?


Also have you looked into improving the SD5401 switcher? Some one mentiond here that it can be a week link in the video chain.


Athanasios


----------



## 1031




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/12653059
> 
> 
> 
> Also have you looked into improving the SD5401 switcher? Some one mentiond here that it can be a week link in the video chain.
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Yes








http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/attach...1&d=1196405985 

I tested to bypass that sd5401 with buffered videoselector.. picture looked better but that buffered videoselector wasnt fast enouqht to make proper side blanking










About that opa chip. I really dont remember what was fb-resistor value when i tested that. I need to found some time and start those tests all from beginning.


----------



## nashou66

What type of caps are those big white ones in the pic,the 47uf ones? Or are they resistors?


Athanasios


----------



## 1031




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/12653602
> 
> 
> What type of caps are those big white ones in the pic,the 47uf ones? Or are they resistors?
> 
> 
> Athanasios



Those are 0.47uF plastic smd caps.


link: http://www.elfa.se/elfa-bin/inforuta...tfield=6553200


----------



## nashou66

I c, I replaced mine with similar ones that were originaly there just a higher voltage rating..47uf also.


Athanasios


----------



## Tim in Phoenix

Guys


The 220 ohm metal film resistors for hvps are no good; you want ceramic. Mike Parker mentioned on another thread.


----------



## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tim in Phoenix* /forum/post/12655370
> 
> 
> Guys
> 
> 
> The 220 ohm metal film resistors for hvps are no good; you want ceramic. Mike Parker mentioned on another thread.



Yes i am using the Ohmite ceramics and have gotten deeper blacks as a result with less "snow" in the background.


off to change out my VNB carbon comps with ohmite ceramics....see ya !!!


Athanasios


----------



## barcoguy

LVPS: OK this may have been covered already but I had trouble finding it. What is the reason you don't just replace the resistor R224 (120.6 Ohm) with a larger one 120ohm + 475 = 595 ohm std value 590 ohm mouser part 273-590-RC. I thought I read something about not using metal film. I understand you need to replace the failing 20ohm pot from digikey.


I don't see why you need to cut the trace just to add a resistor in series. It seems like an over complicated solution. But maybe I missing a key factor.


----------



## nashou66

You want to ad a pot to adjust it to the closest value to 6.35v. putting in afixed resistor wont allow you to do that, and the value isn,t always the same or i should say are off from actual values. you dont have to cut the trace you can conect it from underneth the board as well.


Athanasios


----------



## barcoguy

I realize you have to put a pot regardless. I just want to remove R224 and put in a larger one. can this be done?


I find cutting a trace rather tedious.


----------



## barcoguy

I need to put my glasses on. I completely missed that last sentence. Thanks


----------



## barcoguy

Digikey does not have any of the 20ohm pots 3299X-1-200-ND anyone know where I can get them?


----------



## GlenC

I believe in all honesty that if you are concerned about the "POT", replacement with the same part, new production will work just fine. My 9500 had over 25K hours on the chassis and it still had the original pot in the LVPS and was very stable.


----------



## barcoguy

I read the tech bulletin on the lvps on curts site. Mine was made in 95 before the problem. I did not realize that I thought it was all lvps. I tuned it in to 6.35v and it has stuck there. I will keep an eye on it though  Thanks


----------



## barcoguy

This may have been posted before. But I did my best to gather the information so its easy to buy the parts all at once. Then have a weekend of burning the soldering iron!!!! Please let me know if anything has changed or if I have something wrong!

Thanks


Source for common marquee repair/update parts.



14 each for Vertical Board (6x2 + 2)

DIGIKEY Part # PPC.68BCT-ND

RES .68 OHM .50W 5% MF FUSIBLE

$0.94 each


24 each for Convergence Board (12x2)

DIGIKEY Part # PPC.68BCT-ND

RES .68 OHM .50W 5% MF FUSIBLE

$0.94 each


48 each for Convergence Board

DIGIKEY Part # PPC1.5BCT-ND

RES 1.5 OHM .50W 5% MF FUSIBLE

$0.51 each


2 each for HVPS

DIGIKEY Part # BC1806-ND

CAP FILM MKT 1UF 400VDC 10%

$1.11 each


2 each for HVPS

DIGIKEY Part # BC1872-ND

CAP FILM MMKP .47UF 630VDC 5%

$1.92 each


6 each for HVPS

DIGIKEY Part # OY564KE-ND

RES CERAMIC COMP 560K OHM 2W

$1.22 each


2 each for HVPS

DIGIKEY Part # PPC220W-2CT-ND

RES 220 OHM METAL FILM 2W 5%

$0.60 each


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CLM

lithium backup battery ??

100mfd electrolytics ?

inductors??


HDM


220 mfd @ 160vdc cap digikey part # 493-1393-ND $1.53


VDM

look at board version

8 each
http://www.micro-ohm.com/ Part# FRN1/4 - 1 ohm 5% tolerance


vertical squeeze mod

3x 56kohm metal film 1% 1/4 watt from Digikey.com, Part# 56.2KXB.


----------



## nashou66

Barco guy with respect to the Ohmite resistors for your HVPS the 560 kohm is the speced value but some have found that they are getting a weird thing happening when you try to turn on only one tube at a time the other tubes my also have a grid or image visable as well but of lesser intensity. I would order a secon set of resistor with the values closer to the ones actually read after you take them out. if you have the same problem then try switching to the higher value resistors . I plan on getting 680 kohm ones since my old one read closer to 700 kohms.


This is not a proven fix yet so if you try it let us know the results. I am waiting for my parts to come this week and plan to try it as soon as possible.


Athanasios


----------



## 1031

Nashou. This bothers me little. Use correct values for those resistors. Example those 560 ohms are 560Kilo ohms







Just that peoples dont order wrong components.

Same here, i´m waiting also those resistors..


----------



## nashou66

Thanks Jarmo, i edited my post. My new values should be in today or tommorow.


Athanasios


----------



## Paul Butler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *barcoguy* /forum/post/12963015
> 
> 
> 2 each for HVPS
> 
> DIGIKEY Part # PPC220W-2CT-ND
> 
> RES 220 OHM METAL FILM 2W 5%
> 
> $0.60 each



Use Ohmite OY221KE for R5 and R46 - DO NOT use metal Film resistors in the HVPS.


For the Convergence and Vertical boards, there is some doubt if the listed parts are correct or not;
_14 each for Vertical Board (6x2 + 2)

DIGIKEY Part # PPC.68BCT-ND

RES .68 OHM .50W 5% MF FUSIBLE

$0.94 each_

_24 each for Convergence Board (12x2)

DIGIKEY Part # PPC.68BCT-ND

RES .68 OHM .50W 5% MF FUSIBLE

$0.94 each


48 each for Convergence Board

DIGIKEY Part # PPC1.5BCT-ND

RES 1.5 OHM .50W 5% MF FUSIBLE

$0.51 each_


See this thread http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewt...t=2769&start=0 over at Curt Palmes forums for more details on the mods you are looking at doing - read it ALL before doing anything!


I've put the convergence and vertical board mods on hold until I can clarify whether the listed resistors above are the correct ones to install

Paul


----------



## barcoguy

Thanks for the input. But I already order all of those parts. Looks like I will just have to wait to do those changes.


----------



## barcoguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nashou66* /forum/post/12963266
> 
> 
> Barco guy with respect to the Ohmite resistors for your HVPS the 560 kohm is the speced value but some have found that they are getting a weird thing happening when you try to turn on only one tube at a time the other tubes my also have a grid or image visable as well but of lesser intensity. I would order a secon set of resistor with the values closer to the ones actually read after you take them out. if you have the same problem then try switching to the higher value resistors . I plan on getting 680 kohm ones since my old one read closer to 700 kohms.
> 
> 
> This is not a proven fix yet so if you try it let us know the results. I am waiting for my parts to come this week and plan to try it as soon as possible.
> 
> 
> Athanasios




I got some 680kohm as well thanks for the input!


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## barcoguy

Does anyone have a source for a new CLM battery mine is at 3.01v but Its a 13 year old battery so why not change it.


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## garyfritz

Tim in Phoenix has them.


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## barcoguy

Thanks so looking at my neckboards I have 50-2039-01P ISS. I am looking for the burn marks but I don't see any. Does anyone have a good example of what a burnt one looks like? If anything I see a tiny hair line crack. I will have to get out the microscope to see. I also looked for burns on the inductors but I don't see any. The chassis has 3k on 30k stby
http://www2.go-concepts.com/~campbell/DSC05821.JPG 
http://www2.go-concepts.com/~campbell/DSC05822.JPG


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## barcoguy

Should I upgrade my CLM software version? I have 3.0


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## nashou66




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *barcoguy* /forum/post/12973750
> 
> 
> Thanks so looking at my neckboards I have 50-2039-01P ISS. I am looking for the burn marks but I don't see any. Does anyone have a good example of what a burnt one looks like? If anything I see a tiny hair line crack. I will have to get out the microscope to see. I also looked for burns on the inductors but I don't see any. The chassis has 3k on 30k stby
> http://www2.go-concepts.com/~campbell/DSC05821.JPG
> http://www2.go-concepts.com/~campbell/DSC05822.JPG



Those look good, I would just reflow the solder on them. I also just changed out the U4 opamp MC3402 with a lower noise TLE2072, I used the same series on the Focus board as well the texas instuments TLE2074. A little less noisy and a few other improvments over the motorola chips.


Athanasios


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## nashou66

Does anyone have the gerber files for Sly's Gamma circuit?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...8&d=1046938941 


Athanasios


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## nashou66

I posted this with its own thread but I wanted it to be in a place where everyone can find it easier....


Hi Guys, I found a new way that increases the odds of getting the C-element out with less or no damage to the Bellow.


I first said you take off the back LC housing brace but I was wrong, you need to slide it back to give you more

working room to get of the Bellow from the back of the housing. First you need to remover the

pins that are used for Schliemfluge adjustments(Also keep the C-element ring in place till we get

the Bellow off the back)



Screw in to the pin an allen or other screw that fits the threads And Pry it out,

*Prying out screw and pin*











*Pin Removed*











*Next remove any screws that hold front housing to back and dont loose the Springs.*











So after you remove the screws and the top and bottom pivot plates you can move the

housing back to gibe more room to the bellow screws and for a razor or flat screw driver to help

pry it off after the metal gasket is off.

*Lc outer Housing slid back to give more room*










*More room on top too !!!*










*Now more room for allen key !!! Woo Hooo!*



















Remove all allen screws, then pry off metal gasket.

*Gasket removal*










*Now slide gasket out of way to front of housing*











Now carefully remove Bellow from back of face plate with blade to start then finger

or you can use the blade all the way around if its on there good!!

*Separating Bellow from face plate*


















*Front of LC housing removed from face plate*










*Now take off gasket*










*Next remove C-Element retaining ring.*











Now fold over the bellow onto the C-element and push the whole thing trough the

Housing hole, do it carefully, but it should be ok and not rip.

*Folding Bellow*


















*C-element still attached to bellow*











Now you can much more easily get a blade to the bellow and

C-Element to separate them.

*Carefully sliding blade between Bellow and C-element*










*C-Element removed and no bellow damage !!!!!!*











i hope this procedure is easier than trying to take the C-element out while the metal housing

is still in place. I think it is.


And a down loadable PDF from My .mac site

*Marquee Stuff* 


Athanasios


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## ohmess

Hi All -- I just wanted to jump in on the C Element technique posted here. I used it to install a Red C Element last month and it worked well for me.


There was some debate on using RTV to reinstall the new C Element. I applied a very fine layer of RTV mostly because I didn't want the thing leaking once I got in up on the ceiling.


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## sly

BTW geocities is going to go away. A lot of the images are posted there and will need to be moved.


here is the eagle files for the gamma circuit


I tiled 4 together so I would get the min board size then cut them up.

 

Gamma.zip 23.875k . file


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