# Is Toggle bolting a LCD TV and mount OK?



## escheng

I would like to mount my Sony 40" LCD TV with a Sanus tilting mount on a section of wall without studs in the right places. The TV is 48 lbs. Has anyone ever mounted a TV with only toggle bolts? I think my dry wall is 1/2" thick.


If someone has done this:

- what size toggle bolts did you use?

- how many toggle bolts did you use?


Thanks for any help and suggestions!


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## Gizmologist

What kind of wall are you dealing with? If it has sheetrock it must have studs.


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## tomscave

Gizmologist, I believe he's saying there are no studs in the exact area he wants to mount the tv.


Escheng, I had the same situation at the girlfriends house and used 4 of those ziptie type toggle bolts made by Toggler or Hilti to bolt the mount to the wall in her bedroom so I could hang a 32" LCD tv. It's been hanging there for 2 years now with no issues. Each 3/16 toggle is rated to hold 50lbs, so 4 should be sufficient for a small LCD tv.


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## Gizmologist

The safest way to hang a panel where the mount is not centered between studs is a span type mount where the LCD support arm can be moved side to side along the mount to compensate for stud locations. Another and less expensive way is to use a piece of 3/4" ply to accomplish the same task, then screw the mount to the plywood using a minimum lag bolt size of 1/4" x 1 1/2"


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## ericspencer

A toggle bolt is a very bad idea.. Moen makes a product, the secure mount that will work. I have used them in a situations where I could find a stud for one side of the mount but not the other.


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## MrBobb

I don't trust drywall-only mounts. Through the years I've noticed these mounts seem to hold when they are new, but as time goes by, the hole get enlarged, worn, then the bolts eventually become loose. In my new place I even took the trouble of placing a stud behind a towel bar mount. I just wanted solid, no maintenance EVER.


Unrelated rant: Why towel bars are made to be 18" and 24" when studs are 16" apart? Why can't they get it together? GGGGRRRRRRrrrrrrrr.


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## stefuel

Don't take the lazy way out. If the mount does not reach two studs and allow side to side movement then open the wall and bridge the gaps so that you have wood to bolt to. Sheetrock is cheap. Sheetrock alone can not support the weight. While the wall is open, run the power and signal wires inside up to the back


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## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBobb* /forum/post/19994413
> 
> 
> Unrelated rant: Why towel bars are made to be 18" and 24" when studs are 16" apart?



Because they are only mean to support towels. They are not assist bars.


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## escheng

Hey all,


Thanks so much for all the input! I emailed Sanus and (to my surprise) got a rather quick response on a Saturday morning! They did clarify that mounting to only dry wall voids any warranty on the mount and the TV.


That being said, they also stated the only toggle bolt they tested was called Snaptoggle by Toggler. According to Toggler's website, each of these bolts will hold 265 lbs in 1/2" dry wall!! The system looks better than traditional toggle bolts. Toggler fills the drilled hole with the plastic snaps, which would seem to me that the overall bolt is anchored better.


BTW- they also state they are the only toggle bolt to meet national criteria for installing grab bars (tested at Cornell Medical College).


I will have to think about this. I may use this as an excuse to buy a lighter LED LCD (Samsung's 40" weighs about 34 lbs) and use several Toggler toggle bolts. I have considered opening the wall and putting in some studs, but the wall has a specialized texture that I don't know how to replicate.


An aside: If anyone is in the market for a Sanus mount, I got the VMPL50A (Visionmount, tilting, 32"-60") for $54.49 at Amazon. It retails $149.99 at Best Buy.


I'll keep you all posted on what happens. Thanks again, everyone!!


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## MrBobb

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Colm* 
Because they are only mean to support towels. They are not assist bars.
Then the designed intend is not sufficient for real life use. People DO slip on wet bathrooms and the towel bar is often the thing they hold on to.


Either that or they remember your reply, and go, oh no, they did not intend for me to use it as grab bar, I should let myself fall and crack my skull instead.


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## MrBobb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *escheng* /forum/post/19996759
> 
> 
> hold 265 lbs in 1/2" dry wall!!



These numbers are for static weight, and assuming the drywall never cracks. The TV would probly never fall, but just look at your bathroom towel bars that been there for a while, that's how a drywall-only mount will feel after awhile.


Homedepot has some spray cans for textured drywall (no buying expensive equipment required). I have seen they have one for orange-peel texture. I don't like texture wall myself, to me this would be an opportunity to make that wall into a smooth wall. Textured wall = one notices the wall, Smooth wall = tend to fades into background. Following photography 101: U want the TV to be the main subject, the item u most notice. Having a noticeable textured wall so close to the TV distracts it from being the main subject. [/amateur design opera off]


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## ratm

I used 4 of these in 5/8 dry wall (exterior)...

http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/overview.php 


To hang a 50 inch LG plasma (pk550). After installing the mount, I had my wife and 6 year old son hang from it and it didn't budge.


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## Gizmologist

No one in the pro world would EVER trust that kind of weight to sheet rock alone or to some plastic anchors. There have been several cases where the sheetrock gave way and kids have been killed. There will be zero warranty on the set as well when it falls.


You spent so much on a set, why on earth would you be so cheap in properly mounting it?


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## ratm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No one in the pro world would EVER trust that kind of weight to sheet rock alone or to some plastic anchors. There have been several cases where the sheetrock gave way and kids have been killed. There will be zero warranty on the set as well when it falls.
> 
> 
> You spent so much on a set, why on earth would you be so cheap in properly mounting it?



I'm not sure if that was directed at me, but my TV weighs 63 pounds. I had more than double that hanging from the mount and there was zero flex in my drywall. I think I will be fine.


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## olyteddy

+1 for 'Togglers'. We mount grab bars with them when needed.


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## Gizmologist




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ratm* /forum/post/20001985
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if that was directed at me, but my TV weighs 63 pounds. I had more than double that hanging from the mount and there was zero flex in my drywall. *I think I will be fine*.



Why on earth take that chance by not doing the installation with the proper techniques and simply hoping that the sheet rock holds?


Have you ever seen how few screws or nails are frequently used to secure sheetrock to a stud?


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## escheng

Couple of thoughts:


- the Samsung 40" LED LCD weights only 27 lbs (I misspoke in an earlier post). There are mirrors, artwork etc that weigh more than that, and I don't think people think twice about using the plastic sheetrock anchors and a screw to hold them up if there are no studs available. And they probably don't even think about toggle bolts for these things.


- the mounted TV is static. There will be no pulling on the TV little by little over time, like with a towel rack.


- again, the Toggler toggle bolts are medically certified for grab bars. An elderly person grabbing onto a bar to catch themselves from falling would put far more weight on it than 27 lbs. And we're talking about a person falling (more important than a TV).


- the Samsung Ultra Slim Mount (WMN1000B) comes with Toggler Snaptoggle bolts in the box.


Just some thoughts. I have an email into Samsung, but am waiting for a reply. I am going to try to talk to some installers in my area for their opinions.


Ratm: how long has your TV been hanging up now?


Thanks again for everyone's input!


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## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *escheng* /forum/post/20004199
> 
> 
> Couple of thoughts:
> 
> 
> - the Samsung 40" LED LCD weights only 27 lbs (I misspoke in an earlier post). There are mirrors, artwork etc that weigh more than that, and I don't think people think twice about using the plastic sheetrock anchors and a screw to hold them up if there are no studs available. And they probably don't even think about toggle bolts for these things.



There are two forces at work. Shear and tensile normal to the wall.


Thin objects such as mirrors and pictures produce mainly shear.

Anchors which can hold 25 or 50 lbs in pure shear will pull out with tension.


A tv will produce both.


The anchor rating is based on new, totally dry sheetrock. It can only get worse with age and humidity...forget about leaks or moisture...


Gizmologist is entirely correct.- I concur with all his recommendations.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *escheng* /forum/post/20004199
> 
> 
> - again, the Toggler toggle bolts are medically certified for grab bars. An elderly person grabbing onto a bar to catch themselves from falling would put far more weight on it than 27 lbs. And we're talking about a person falling (more important than a TV).



Medically certified? I'm not even sure what that means..










It may be capable of withstanding some transient force event sufficient to help a falling individual, but that is not a sustained force.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *escheng* /forum/post/20004199
> 
> 
> - I am going to try to talk to some installers in my area for their opinions.



Excellent.


If they agree with Giz, use em. If they do not, seek another opinion.


Cheers, John


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## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jneutron* /forum/post/20008409
> 
> 
> There are two forces at work. Shear and tensile normal to the wall.



More accurately compressive strength I think. You can stand on a stack of dry wall and not damage it. That is an indication of its compressive strength. Now pull up on one edge of the top sheet. It will break. That is an indication of shear strength.


IOW it is not the component of the weight of the TV in the vertical plane that will be the problem with proper anchors. The problem is the component of the weight in the horizontal plane. Probably not a problem if the TV is just hanging there and the front of it is close enough to the wall. But if someone or something puts sufficient force on it bad things will happen. I definitely wouldn't mount an expensive TV to dry wall only on the West Coast where significant earth quakes are a possibility. Of course, if the quake is big enough, your TV will be the least of your worries.


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## Gizmologist

Remember with a TV on a mount, the center of gravity of the TV will be a 2-4 inches further away from the wall surface, especially if the TV is pivoted out.


Even if the mount is a close-in static system, the CoG will add some degree of shear force applied to the mounts, especially the top ones. The lower ones will act as a fulcrum if the top mounts are strained.


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## jneutron

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Colm* 
More accurately compressive strength I think. You can stand on a stack of dry wall and not damage it. That is an indication of its compressive strength. Now pull up on one edge of the top sheet. It will break. That is an indication of shear strength.


IOW it is not the component of the weight of the TV in the vertical plane that will be the problem with proper anchors. The problem is the component of the weight in the horizontal plane. Probably not a problem if the TV is just hanging there and the front of it is close enough to the wall. But if someone or something puts sufficient force on it bad things will happen. I definitely wouldn't mount an expensive TV to dry wall only on the West Coast where significant earth quakes are a possibility. Of course, if the quake is big enough, your TV will be the least of your worries.
I guess it's time to invoke the dreaded "Maxwell Cremona" diagram, eh??


If one could tighten all the screws with no load on the wall, the ideal condition of equal vertical force on the anchors would be realized. In reality, it would be close..


All the anchors would be supporting the dead weight of the unit. This appears as a shear force on each anchor. Within the structure of the drywall, there will indeed be compressive forces on the lower 180 degrees of the hole. Moly's will spread this to more of the drywall, but in essentially point contact locations. If the moly is overtightened, it will puncture the paper and render the rock susceptible to long term failure, the core of drywall is not very good at high stress. (this is why you don't want drywall screws to pop the paper as it's being tightened.)


Because the center of gravity of the unit is away from the wall, the upper anchors will be required to withstand a tensile force normal to the wall (translation, it's pulling away from the wall). This will add to the compression on the backside of the rock. If the anchors have bitten through the paper, again, not good long term.


NONE of this will occur with a 2 inch #10 wood screw in a stud.


I stand by gizmologist's recommendations.


Cheers, John


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## bjex500




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jneutron* /forum/post/20013344
> 
> 
> Because the center of gravity of the unit is away from the wall, the upper anchors will be required to withstand a tensile force normal to the wall (translation, it's pulling away from the wall). This will add to the compression on the backside of the rock. If the anchors have bitten through the paper, again, not good long term.



The way the inserts are installed is certainly a variable.

The configuration of the mount is a variable- for instance how far apart are the anchors vertically in the wall vs. how far the center of gravity of the TV is from the face of the wall.

Another variable is how the sheet rock is attached to the studs, or not attached depending on who was doing the nailing or operating the screw gun at the time.

The last factor- are you in an area with earthquakes, slamming doors, anything that would vibrate the tv on the wall?

http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/i...infanchor.html 


There are multiple types of anchors that can be used in drywall. Traditionally the lightest duty anchors are little plastic sleeves that you put into a small hole and then you insert a screw into them to spread them out. These are OK for a towel bar or framed artwork, but not so good for something heavy. These can pull out pretty easily.

Next up are the moly bolts. These come in a variety of sizes, you put them into a hole then tighten the bolt and the back of the anchor expands. They will not come back out of the wall without pulling out a big piece of wall with them.

Higher up the list are the spring loaded toggle bolts. They also will not come out of the wall without tearing out a big piece, but they aren't as good for bearing on the bottom of the hole because it is just the small diameter of the bolt bearing, not the larger body of the moly bolt.


All that said, traditional molly bolts can be very strong. I have seen bookshelves hung with them carrying an incredible weight of books. I have also seen bookshelves tear out of the wall and fall to the floor.


The installer is the person that has to take the risk and determine what is good enough. I am a professional engineer so when I do things like this for myself I am pretty conservative. I don't know if I would hang a 40# flat screen from sheet rock or not, although I dare say that most of the time you could do it. Again for me it would depend on the configuration of the mount and how much tension it was putting in the top anchors. I would probably go with the wood studs because it would bug me everytime I looked at the TV. For hanging bookshelves that aren't worth big bucks, I would think about them differently.


If a person really wanted to do it, they could buy the heavier duty moly bolts, install the mount, then hang a weight from the mount equal to 2 or 3 times the weight of their TV. If that works for a day or so then they would have some peace of mind that they had a good safety factor.


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## Gizmologist

An 18" x 8" piece of 3/4 plywood spanning 2 studs, painted to match the wall, the proper mounting kit and correctly sized screws and no worries.


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## bjex500




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/20017617
> 
> 
> An 18" x 8" piece of 3/4 plywood spanning 2 studs, painted to match the wall, the proper mounting kit and correctly sized screws and no worries.



Now that's a good concept, in fact I used a similar concept recently to attach a canopy to the outside of a school. Depending on the exact configuration for the OP, he might need to use a piece of plywood that would be long enough to attach to 3 studs (probably 34" long). Also I would suggest something taller than 8".


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## Gizmologist

The 18 x 8 was based on the OPs TV size. very small. the larger the size -and heavier- the larger the backing panel of plywood.


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## escheng

Hey all,


Thanks for the discussion. I am enjoying the revisit to college physics!


Bjex- I have seen this Natural Handyman website page before. The page does not discuss the Toggler/Hilti style toggle bolts. Would you (and others) mind taking a look at the Toggler snaptoggle page and let me know what you think about these specifically? If I do go into dry wall only, these are the only bolts I will use.

http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/overview.php 


The design is definitely different compared to the traditional dry wall anchors.


----------

Now-- brace yourselves-- and please don't yell at me or belittle these stores...


I spoke with two local well respected Not-Big-Box HT stores/installers in my area, and a general contractor.


- One installer supported using the Hilti bolts, but cautioned about tilting the tv too much. He would use 6 of them for the 40" TV.


- The other store's installer wasn't there, but the person I spoke with thought that they did use some version of a toggle bolt if needed. I haven't heard back from the installer yet.


- The general contractor who had no reservations using these particular bolts for hanging the TV. He suggested 6-8 bolts.


- Samsung service wouldn't commit either way, even though they include the Toggler/Hilti bolts in their Ultra Slim Mount package.


-------

Some specifics on my project, since you guys have been suggesting ideas for me...


I am mounting this tv in my exercise room. It is going on a section of wall that is 9 ft tall and 40" wide. The wall was framed originally with two cubbies for the old tube tv's (one facing the exercise room and one facing into the bathroom). I had a contractor wall up the exercise room side and open the bathroom side to make a vanity area. That's why this section of wall has no studs in the middle. I didn't have the foresight to have studs installed to hang a tv cuz, at the time, we decided to ceiling mount a TV in the opposite corner.


Now, there are horizontal studs in that wall at not quite the right places. It appears that there is a horizontal stud at about 8-8.5' up. So, I purchased a Sanus mount that screws in at the top of the mount. Hopefully, this will allow the TV to hang down more and the tv won't be too high up. I can tilt the tv up to 10 deg. I'm going to get a Samsung LED that's 27lbs to keep the weight down. I'm going to get rid of my current Sony LCD that weighs 48lbs (anyone interested in that and/or an Omnimount ceiling mount?).


I'm also installing a 26" Samsung LED underneath the 40". This TV only weighs 12lbs and I'm not tilting it. I have no problems using the 2-4 Snaptoggles to mount this into dry wall only. I currently have a framed print that weighs 11 lbs hanging on this wall on only a screw and it hasn't budged in 3 years.


An aside-- anyone have experiences with HDMI splitters?


I appreciate Giz's suggestion of mounting a board as the support (my dad did that in my house growing up for our towel bars in the bathrooms). Aesthetically, it won't fly with the wife.


I can cut the wall open and install some studs, but patching and re-texturing will be difficult. The texture is such that it can only be done by hand- not by spray bottle- and I don't know how to do it.


Thanks again to everyone for your suggestions. This install will (hopefully) occur this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes. Sorry for the huge post.


Oh, I live in a very dry climate with no earthquakes.


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## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *escheng* /forum/post/20018777
> 
> 
> Oh, I live in a very dry climate with no earthquakes.



Where's the fun in that??


Cheers, John


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## bjex500

Quote:

Bjex- I have seen this Natural Handyman website page before. The page does not discuss the Toggler/Hilti style toggle bolts. Would you (and others) mind taking a look at the Toggler snaptoggle page and let me know what you think about these specifically? If I do go into dry wall only, these are the only bolts I will use.

http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/overview.php
The website that you reference provides shear and tension values for the togglers. I have not used them before but if you buy versions that are made by a reputable company then they should work as advertised. Note that the load capacities given are ultimate. This means that this is the load that the anchor is anticipated to fail at. For normal use you would want to apply a safety factor to these loads, and due to variables and uncertainty involved, they recommend a safety factor of 4 to 1. So the smallest size toggler lists a value of 247# shear capacity at ultimate, that means the recommended safe working load would be 62#.


The Hilti catalog for their similar product lists allowable load of 30# tension and 70# shear.

Quote:

I appreciate Giz's suggestion of mounting a board as the support (my dad did that in my house growing up for our towel bars in the bathrooms). Aesthetically, it won't fly with the wife.
I think the point was that if you put the mount where you want to put it, and if its holes land in between studs, you use the piece of plywood to reach to the 2 studs on either side of this location. You mentioned horizontal studs so in that case you would orient the piece of plywood to reach between the 2 horizontal studs. Also the original suggestion was to paint the plywood to match the wall, and since it is behind the TV screen anyway, it shouldn't be very visible.


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## Gizmologist

The toggle hardware is NOT the concern, the sheetrock is. If the spacing and qty of studs supporting the sheetrock is not the accepted 16" on center, then all the load bearing calculations as to the support strength of sheetrock are totally meaningless.


Now we hear there are to be 2 TVs in the same vertical plane on poorly supported sheetrock. I am sorry, but that is simply not wise AT ALL.


If you opt to take the cheapest way out, be prepared for an "occurrence". I will not use the word "accident" because you have been advised by several folks against doing this improperly.


BTW asking a store employee about mounting physics is not the best move. They are most likely in the same situation as you. You came here asking for advice and it was given several times.


I am asking you-for your own safety and that of your family- let alone the TVs, to take the high road and do the job correctly.


You don't want to have to say to yourself "If only I had done it right."


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## BllDo

The Sanus mount you mentioned is 30" wide. Even at 24" OC you should still be able to hit two studs.


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## escheng

Well, not really. But, there turned out to be A stud, that actually was pretty close to center! It took a lot of probing and a lot of testing with little nails, but I found it. There is so much dry wall plaster (added an additional 1/2" to the wall thickness) and the texture is uneven enough that my stud finder couldn't find it (or I need a new stud finder).


Anyways, the TV's are mounted and solid in the stud. It looks pretty cool. For the 40", I put a center screw into the stud and used the Toggler Snaptoggle bolts on either side. These Snaptoggles are solid! The 26" underneath only needed screws in the center, so no problem there.


Thanks to everyone for their input!


Giz- I appreciate the concern you had in all your posts. Please believe me that I do not take safety lightly. I have a two year old daughter and another on the way and all I think about is their safety. I don't take shortcuts. I presented these questions because I'm not sure that using these particular types of toggle bolts are necessarily shortcuts. Not when I hear installers are using them and Samsung includes them as an install option in their packaging. They even put out a video showing you how to use these toggle bolts to mount their TV's. The gentleman at the HT store I mentioned wasn't just some employee-- he was the previous owner of the store and has been in the business for at least 20 years. I make sure I talk to a lot of the right people, including looking at forums like this one. I like to do a lot of home projects on my own, but I make sure I research every detail as much as I can.


Again, thanks for your comments and concerns!


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## video321

I'm glad you got it sorted out and wasn't able to figure out why you couldn't hit at least 1 stud for your mount. I have 24" OC studs in my house and it didn't work out too well for one of my 32" mounts. I was able to center it to the wall with a single stud running close to the center of the mount so I put 2 lags in there. Then I added a heavy duty wall anchor to each corner (4). Now, I would never had used anchors by themselves, but along with the lags running through the center this thing isn't going anywhere!


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## Alex2507




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BllDo* /forum/post/20022300
> 
> 
> The Sanus mount you mentioned is 30" wide. Even at 24" OC you should still be able to hit two studs.



Not true. If you have 3 studs @ 24" OC the space between the outer 2 is 46.5" and there is only one stud in the middle. With studs 16" @ OC you end up with 1 stud in 30.5".


I like to use a piece of 3/4" edge banded plywood painted black the same size (or a little bigger) as the back of the mount and secure that to the stud/s. Then I secure the mount to the plywood and the stud/s. It's an extra step but when we bought our 50" Panny it was close to 2 grand and I felt better with the over kill.


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## escheng

This section of wall was originally two open cubbies framed to hold the old larger TV's. I had a contractor close up the cubby on the exercise room side and remodel the bathroom side to make a vanity area. The wall is 47" wide, and I assumed (when I couldn't locate any studs with my stud finder) that he put up a board of sheetrock without studs in the middle. At that time, I didn't have plans for the wall. Thankfully, he did put up a stud and, thankfully, I found it! The TV's cover up most of the small nail holes I put all over the wall.


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## alk3997




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jneutron* /forum/post/20013344
> 
> 
> I guess it's time to invoke the dreaded "Maxwell Cremona" diagram, eh??
> 
> 
> If one could tighten all the screws with no load on the wall, the ideal condition of equal vertical force on the anchors would be realized. In reality, it would be close..
> 
> 
> All the anchors would be supporting the dead weight of the unit. This appears as a shear force on each anchor. Within the structure of the drywall, there will indeed be compressive forces on the lower 180 degrees of the hole. Moly's will spread this to more of the drywall, but in essentially point contact locations. If the moly is overtightened, it will puncture the paper and render the rock susceptible to long term failure, the core of drywall is not very good at high stress. (this is why you don't want drywall screws to pop the paper as it's being tightened.)
> 
> 
> Because the center of gravity of the unit is away from the wall, the upper anchors will be required to withstand a tensile force normal to the wall (translation, it's pulling away from the wall). This will add to the compression on the backside of the rock. If the anchors have bitten through the paper, again, not good long term.
> 
> 
> NONE of this will occur with a 2 inch #10 wood screw in a stud.
> 
> 
> I stand by gizmologist's recommendations.
> 
> 
> Cheers, John



One other item that might be of use - no TV I've seen has the same amount of weight on both sides. In other words the mass distribution is not uniform throughout the TV and the TV is not a point source (obviously).


So what you would get in a failure is a rotational force as well as the top bolts pull away with one side pulling away faster than the other. Depending upon how strong the bottom wall is, this could also lead to a compressive force on one of the bottom bolts while the TV rotates away.


I'd want to be really sure of the wall strength before trying this and then I still wouldn't feel comfortable particularly with vibrations in the room.


Edit - And glad you found the wall stud!


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## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alk3997* /forum/post/20046763
> 
> 
> So what you would get in a failure is a rotational force as well as the top bolts pull away with one side pulling away faster than the other. Depending upon how strong the bottom wall is, this could also lead to a compressive force on one of the bottom bolts while the TV rotates away.



""I see you're no stranger to pain"" (statics and dynamics, Beer and Johnson, 1972)


.....I've been divorced.. (ooooh!!!)



Twice.. (OOOOOOOOHHH!!).


Nice comments...

Cheers, John


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## bjex500




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jneutron* /forum/post/20079611
> 
> 
> (statics and dynamics, Beer and Johnson, 1972)



I'll bet I have that book in my office.


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## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bjex500* /forum/post/20083815
> 
> 
> I'll bet I have that book in my office.



Geek!!!


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## gatordude2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *escheng* /forum/post/20038098
> 
> 
> Well, not really. But, there turned out to be A stud, that actually was pretty close to center! It took a lot of probing and a lot of testing with little nails, but I found it. There is so much dry wall plaster (added an additional 1/2" to the wall thickness) and the texture is uneven enough that my stud finder couldn't find it (or I need a new stud finder).
> 
> 
> Anyways, the TV's are mounted and solid in the stud. It looks pretty cool. For the 40", I put a center screw into the stud and used the Toggler Snaptoggle bolts on either side. These Snaptoggles are solid! The 26" underneath only needed screws in the center, so no problem there.
> 
> 
> Thanks to everyone for their input!
> 
> 
> Giz- I appreciate the concern you had in all your posts. Please believe me that I do not take safety lightly. I have a two year old daughter and another on the way and all I think about is their safety. I don't take shortcuts. I presented these questions because I'm not sure that using these particular types of toggle bolts are necessarily shortcuts. Not when I hear installers are using them and Samsung includes them as an install option in their packaging. They even put out a video showing you how to use these toggle bolts to mount their TV's. The gentleman at the HT store I mentioned wasn't just some employee-- he was the previous owner of the store and has been in the business for at least 20 years. I make sure I talk to a lot of the right people, including looking at forums like this one. I like to do a lot of home projects on my own, but I make sure I research every detail as much as I can.
> 
> 
> Again, thanks for your comments and concerns!




How is this setup working out for you? I am in a similar boat, with a stud located exactly on the center of where I want to mount the TV. I am thinking about using 2 lag bolts to attach the mount to the stud at the dead center. I would then use 4 togglers to attach to the dry wall at the 4 corners. This is for a 55" TV that weighs 48 lbs. The mount (LG LSW400BG) is not articulating but it does come away from the wall by up to 8" to provide tip-tilt capability. LG advertises this mount as ok for dry wall, but then do not explicitly state this in the installation manual and that is what concerns me.


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## MrBobb

Oh no... not that 4 months-old thread we all already had our shots at it.


Am going to change my answer, after having re-mod my kitchen and seeing huge cabinets hung by just a few thin bolts and they've up there for years!


If you are going to mount it on the center stud and toggle-bolt on the sides just to steady it, OK do it, but I'd add a third bolt toward the top bolt on the stud because it will make me feel better. Good luck!


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## cshepard

27 pounds? 4 SnapToggles? No problem. Yes I'm a pro. No, not a trunk slammer. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I EVER hung a TV where there was ANY doubt MY installation would fail. I'd hang 40" LEDs all day long with 4 SnapToggles.


Having said that...First, I'm not going to be responsible for YOUR install or your TV. Second, I would probably be able to find a way to use at least one stud (drill new holes in the mount) before I brought out the Togglers.


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## Knocks

This is the best thread I've found on the subject, so I'm reviving it. I'm hanging a 60-inch, 45 lbs Samsung TV (UN60F8000) on a drywall using a Samsung-brand mini wall mount WMN450M. The studs are, as expected, in the wrong place and would shift the ideal TV position by 8 inches to the left, so we're looking for other solutions.


The drywall in this apartment is, interestingly, 1-inch thick, as opposed to the typical half-inch--that's twice as much support for the toggle bolts than the usual drywall, if I went that route. Does that make toggle bolts a more acceptable solution in this scenario? Again, the TV is 45 lbs.


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## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Knocks*  /t/1314636/is-toggle-bolting-a-lcd-tv-and-mount-ok/30#post_24777294
> 
> 
> This is the best thread I've found on the subject, so I'm reviving it. I'm hanging a 60-inch, 45 lbs Samsung TV (UN60F8000) on a drywall using a Samsung-brand mini wall mount WMN450M. The studs are, as expected, in the wrong place and would shift the ideal TV position by 8 inches to the left, so we're looking for other solutions.
> 
> 
> The drywall in this apartment is, interestingly, 1-inch thick, as opposed to the typical half-inch--that's twice as much support for the toggle bolts than the usual drywall, if I went that route. Does that make toggle bolts a more acceptable solution in this scenario? Again, the TV is 45 lbs.


Does it make it safer? Yes! Is it as safe as using studs? Not at all!


I'm sure you are fine with hanging your cheap TV on something that is not 100% structurally sound, but if you aren't made of money, and replacing the TV isn't your first choice, then get a different mount.


Universal mounts with holes every inch are the only appropriate solution if you aren't able to hit studs or manipulate your wall in other ways.


This mount, for example, fixes your issue, is under $20, and is only .4" from the wall when mounted:
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10917&cs_id=1091701&p_id=10485&seq=1&format=2 


Monoprice has many other choices as well.


If you do decide to go strictly with the drywall, the rule is still the same: Use Snaptoggle Togglers by Hilti. They will give the most secure mount in drywall that I've seen.


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## NickTheGreat

I wouldn't use just toggle bolts. For some of them, maybe, but not solely.


In our room where we had a similar situation, I used at articulating mount to get the TV where I wanted it, but mounted on studs. I wanted it out from the wall anyway, so this may not work for you.


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## wkearney99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Knocks*  /t/1314636/is-toggle-bolting-a-lcd-tv-and-mount-ok/30#post_24777294
> 
> 
> The drywall in this apartment is, interestingly, 1-inch thick, as opposed to the typical half-inch--that's twice as much support for the toggle bolts than the usual drywall, if I went that route. Does that make toggle bolts a more acceptable solution in this scenario?



Quite possibly not. The real question is why is there so much drywall up? Because someone half-assed it and just laid another 1/2" layer on top of something in wrecked condition? As in, with cracks, holes, moisture damage or other such issues? Many of which might render the wall WORSE for hanging anything without going into a stud.


Conversely if it's a wall shared with another unit (on the other side) then perhaps they layered and glued it for soundproofing purposes. Hanging on that would present other issues. As in, the noise from the TV would end up radiating through the mounts, negating the point of the layers of drywall.


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## Knocks




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wkearney99*  /t/1314636/is-toggle-bolting-a-lcd-tv-and-mount-ok/30#post_24785135
> 
> 
> why is there so much drywall up? Because someone half-assed it and just laid another 1/2" layer on top of something in wrecked condition? As in, with cracks, holes, moisture damage or other such issues? Many of which might render the wall WORSE for hanging anything without going into a stud.
> 
> 
> Conversely if it's a wall shared with another unit (on the other side) then perhaps they layered and glued it for soundproofing purposes. Hanging on that would present other issues. As in, the noise from the TV would end up radiating through the mounts, negating the point of the layers of drywall.



The other side is a bedroom. It's an old apartment building, so I don't think their choice of drywall thickness had anything to do with soundproofing or patching things up. Looks like that's just how things were done when it was built. I also spoke with a friend who said if the building is old, it might be plaster and not drywall, but I wouldn't know how to check that.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV_Integrated*  /t/1314636/is-toggle-bolting-a-lcd-tv-and-mount-ok/30#post_24784429
> 
> 
> 
> This mount, for example, fixes your issue, is under $20, and is only .4" from the wall when mounted:
> http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10917&cs_id=1091701&p_id=10485&seq=1&format=2
> 
> 
> Monoprice has many other choices as well.



That mount would not work for this TV. I have already bought four (!) different mounts and decided to go with the Samsung one for several reasons:


1) It's made by Samsung, presumably exactly for this TV

2) the UN60F8000 has a weird thickness issue where the Evolution Kit at the bottom protrudes .8 inches, so mounts under .5 inches would not allow the TV to line up against the wall. At the same time, it's still one of the thinnest 60-inch TV around, and I wanted to take advantage of that and still have it sit as close to the wall as possible

3) It has a kickstand, which allows you to get in behind the TV and plug in new devices as you buy them. That was ultimately the deciding factor.


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## SAM64




> Quote:
> Looks like that's just how things were done when it was built. I also spoke with a friend who said if the building is old, it might be plaster and not drywall, but I wouldn't know how to check that.



Since no one makes 1" drywall, it's probably drywall over plaster....you can tell by looking at it. Plaster isn't very strong either.


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## wkearney99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SAM64*  /t/1314636/is-toggle-bolting-a-lcd-tv-and-mount-ok/30#post_24799313
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Looks like that's just how things were done when it was built. I also spoke with a friend who said if the building is old, it might be plaster and not drywall, but I wouldn't know how to check that.
> 
> 
> 
> Since no one makes 1" drywall, it's probably drywall over plaster....you can tell by looking at it. Plaster isn't very strong either.
Click to expand...


It's not an uncommon shortcut for people to lay new drywall over plaster that's in bad shape. Once upon a time plaster was installed by glopping it onto wooden slats. The technique is known as 'plaster and lath'. It's considerably messier to remove and dispose of than drywall. Thus a lot of times people will just leave it up and skin over it because they don't want to suffer the hassle of removing and disposing of it. It's a slipshod way to do things, but such is life.


Where it'll matter for you is presence of plaster & lath under the drywall would make it pretty difficult to truly find the vertical studs, as you'll need those to properly anchor the mount. That and if the drywall on the surface was only screwed into the plaster (and that's in bad shape) then it might have even LESS support than just drywall alone. It's one thing to have new drywall screwed directly into studs. That's got a somewhat reasonable ability to handle some amount of weight on toggles. But if it's just barely screwed into old, cracking plaster? It'd be even less likely to hold anything more than a picture.


I would never, ever use toggles for anything beyond pictures. For a fixed mount that never moved, and a small TV.... _maybe_. But not EVER for a mount that has a movable arm. The shear forces would be just too much for toggles in drywall.


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## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Knocks*  /t/1314636/is-toggle-bolting-a-lcd-tv-and-mount-ok/30#post_24785399
> 
> 
> ...That mount would not work for this TV. I have already bought four (!) different mounts and decided to go with the Samsung one for several reasons:
> 
> 
> 1) It's made by Samsung, presumably exactly for this TV
> 
> 2) the UN60F8000 has a weird thickness issue where the Evolution Kit at the bottom protrudes .8 inches, so mounts under .5 inches would not allow the TV to line up against the wall. At the same time, it's still one of the thinnest 60-inch TV around, and I wanted to take advantage of that and still have it sit as close to the wall as possible
> 
> 3) It has a kickstand, which allows you to get in behind the TV and plug in new devices as you buy them. That was ultimately the deciding factor.


It's up to you, but I would put in .3" of washers behind the mount so the mount works perfectly, and hit the studs.


Your TV of course. But, on my side I've hung about 150 flat panel displays, and have used this mount and others with all types of TVs. A few spacers definitely do the trick and get the TV really close to the wall.


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## Erindobbins

Hey everyone, thank you all for your input. I have an old Sharp 65 inch LCD flat screen (just over 200lbs) that I have always mounted with plywood attaching the bracket to the plywood, since the Sharp mount won't fit on 2 studs. 😔. I just moved back to the US from Okinawa, Japan and am trying to get settled in my new home. I wen to the local Lowes today (Anchorage, AL) and asked for a piece of plywood to mount my tv. The guy that was helping me said, "why don't you just use these Toggler bolts and you can mount it directly to the drywall". I told him, you can't hang a 200+ lb tv to dry wall. He assured me that each bolt could hold 265lbs and with 6-8 bolts it would be a piece of cake. Well, he seemed so knowledgeable that I finally bought the bolts. Then I came home to research and found this forum. You all have been debating this for quite some time and have used an incredible amount of actual physics and science to back your opinions. I thank you all for all the feedback. I have decided to mount our 47" Polaroid tv (yeah, they made one 😜) using only the toggler bolts since it is not too heave and it is new Sheetrock and it might be a blessing if it fell and smashed. ☺ However, I will be going back to get my plywood to mount my 200+lb tv and my 70" sharp that's about 100lbs. To me, it's just not worth the risk of either of those TV mounts failing and hurting any of my kids, or of losing the tv's. Thank you again everyone!!!😄


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## wkearney99

I've not seen it broken down anywhere in particular, but you have to consider how weight is spread across an area, not just what an individual fastener might be rated to handle. The material needs to be able to spread the load. That and handle the stresses of being pulled outward, in addition to just weight pushing down. Putting too many of them too close to each other will exceed the capacity of the material to handle it. How many and how close is certainly an interesting question. I'd venture the folks selling the fasteners have one set of arguments, while the makers of the drywall have others. Given the weight involved and the expense of the gear I'd rather have a bit of overkill.

In the end, you hit on the main point... safety. Both for the people near it and the device itself. You've done the plywood method in the past and had good results, so stick with it.


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## Erindobbins

👍 "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". ☺

Thank you all again. 😄


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## Mertol

*Only mollybolts*

I am sorry to re-resurrect the thread ones more, but wanted to get your opinions on this. 

I am living in a two storey building, and the secondfloors all walls are drywall with no studs. The lazy guy who build the second floor used splashes of concrete to glue drywall to bricks. As they had used a lot of spots it's quite secure.

In the past i did hang kitchen cabinets to the drywall but as home was empty i had the chane to secure it with combination of glue, several mollybolts, woods buried in wall, two very large through the wall bolts that travels to the other side of the wall (and One side of the cabinets are bolted to standart brick wall) . I am checking its status ragularly (3 years) it did not gave a single mm now. 

I also bolted a 28 inch LCD TV on a moving hand (that moves out of the wall for 50 cm) with 3 medium sized molly bolts. Its been two years and even i press with a lot of force when the hand is fully extended it does feel extremely secure. 

Now i have to hang a Samsung 55hu7500, (no extending arms) it's only 17.8 kg . Drywall is either 5/8 inch or 3/4 inch and there is only 1 - 1.5 cm between bricks and drywall making it hard to use anything other then molly bolts. 

Honestly i don't realy mind if tv set falls down and breaks, if and if no one gets hurt. There is no way tv will fall to floor as there is a custom Solid wood hifi rack below it (15-20 cm max) and after falling on it , it may collapse to floor (or got stuck on top of hifi rack) 

I can use 4-6 mylar bolts to secure the wall mount (more if needded) so considering that each is 200 lbs + rated for tension and assuming only 3 of'em will share the load , it gives 660 lbs for a 40 lbs TV. There is almost 15X security factor. 

But i'd like to hear from you if it is still not allright? 

(Tearing down the whole wall and installing studs is impossible in this stage) 




Mertol


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## wkearney99

Mertol said:


> I am sorry to re-resurrect the thread ones more, but wanted to get your opinions on this.


Please consider using a web browser like Chrome or something that supports spell checking. Especially with it set for the language of the website you're using. They'll show a red underline beneath any suspected spelling errors. It's tough to slog through posts when they're riven with spelling mistakes. 

Bolts are not typically Mylar, as that's typically a clear plastic sheeting material, similar to cellophane. More typically they're some kind of nylon. I would not use anything other than metal screws or bolts. The expansion fastener, however, might well be a plastic-type of material. I'd prefer metal though, as they're probably less likely to fail over time.

The trouble with expansion anchors and drywall close to the brick is there's not usually enough room back there for them to expand properly. That and the length of the bolt doesn't have enough depth unless a hole is pre-drilled into the masonry to accommodate it.

You'd likely be better served using a technique common when stud spacing doesn't match desired mounting holes. And that's to affix a sheet of 3/4" finish-grade plywood to the wall first, and then anchor into that. The idea is the plywood can be anchored over a larger area than most mounts. Especially if some construction adhesive is applied between the plywood and the drywall. But not just glue alone, physical fasteners (screws) driven into the material behind will carry most of the load. For your setup that'd likely be masonry screws, aka Tapcon screws. That or other kinds of expanding masonry fasteners. You'd drill holes for them into the bricks and then fasten through the wood & drywall into them.


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## Mertol

i was posting from ipad, Safari , sorry for all spelling mistakes. 

i mean molly bolts not mylar bolts. The molly bolts i have are all metal ( 6x52 stabilit ) 

i bought the Sonorus 240 wall mount, which is 80 cm wide and 15 cm tall (arms that attach lcd is 50 cm). I am now planning to use 12 molly bolts , each rated at 220 pounds of tension. Center of gravity of the TV will be 5 cm away from the wall, given the fact arms extend 50 cm vertical plane and mount base extend 80 cm on horizantal plane. 

Do you still think that i need to cut a 50x50 hole on dry wall and try to mount a plywood to the bricks? 

The bricks that are used in here are a little different ( my post count is not 5 i cant post a link)

What usuallwy hols the anchor is the concrete on the surface of the brick not the brick as you see it's mostly empty inside with thin walls. 

While i can still attach plywood to brick in someway i am not positeve that they will hold any better.


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## Mertol

Here is how my bricks look in person


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## wkearney99

I take it those bricks are hollow inside? The picture you posted is showing one laid on it's side? Or are they laid that way in the wall, with the open cavities facing out (not up)? If they're hollow vertically then things could get more complicated.

The idea is the combination of glue between the plywood and the drywall, along with a few fasteners through both the plywood AND the drywall to the masonry behind. This gains the benefit of spreading shear forces both to the screws into the masonry AND however the drywall is attached. Not just one or the other alone. When folks have better framing it's typical to just use screws and no adhesive. I wouldn't suggest removing the drywall, it's already there and is already attached to the wall. Removing it wouldn't do much to help other than give you direct access to the bricks. Which you don't really need to access directly.


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## Mertol

They are placed in a way that open cavities are facing up.


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