# Surge Protector recommendations



## BDD888

I am a relatively simple system. 60" Pioneer Elite Signature 141 plasma monitor. Pioneer Elite SC-07 receiver. Panasonic BD60 BD player. And soon a HD digital cable box. Might add a PS3 & X360. That's about it HT wise.


And a SVS PC13 Ultra sub. Which is located too far from the bulk of my gear (above mentioned) to share the same surge protector. So I might need a 2nd simple one. Just for the sub. The sub is almost 21 feet away (if you measure along the walls..where the wall meets the floor).


But will add as well a modem/router for internet and BD-Live.


What surge protectors would you recommend to more than adequately protect my investments? I know Panamax is good. I"m just not familiar with the important specs.


Thanks.


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## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BDD888* /forum/post/17017124
> 
> 
> I am a relatively simple system. 60" Pioneer Elite Signature 141 plasma monitor. Pioneer Elite SC-07 receiver. Panasonic BD60 BD player. And soon a HD digital cable box. Might add a PS3 & X360. That's about it HT wise.
> 
> 
> And a SVS PC13 Ultra sub. Which is located too far from the bulk of my gear (above mentioned) to share the same surge protector. So I might need a 2nd simple one. Just for the sub. The sub is almost 21 feet away (if you measure along the walls..where the wall meets the floor).
> 
> 
> But will add as well a modem/router for internet and BD-Live.
> 
> 
> What surge protectors would you recommend to more than adequately protect my investments? I know Panamax is good. I"m just not familiar with the important specs.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Install a (whole house) unit at your main panel and then a strip at your AV gear location for the best protection.


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## BDD888

AV Doogie,


Any specific recommendations? How much would a "whole home surge protector" run me?


I also read on one of the forums here that surge protectors are a "myth". That they actually won't stop power surges. Only the "tiny ones". So I'm also now debating if I should bother. Will it even help? I don't know now.


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## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BDD888* /forum/post/17022736
> 
> 
> AV Doogie,
> 
> 
> Any specific recommendations? How much would a "whole home surge protector" run me?
> 
> 
> I also read on one of the forums here that surge protectors are a "myth". That they actually won't stop power surges. Only the "tiny ones". So I'm also now debating if I should bother. Will it even help? I don't know now.



Surge suppression is not a myth....


Unfortunately, many folks who do not understand the underlying principles and application of suppression equipment are the ones who are the loudest opponents.


A surge suppressor, like any other product designed and built by 'mankind', has limitations. It is up to you to decide what kind of expense and potential damage to equipment you are willing to accept.


Surge suppression, properly sized and installed, will provide protection from everyday overvoltage conditions which are a normal part of the power system. They will also provide protection from most lightning events except for some direct strikes....which are not common.


I recommend IT products which are now owned by Eaton corporation. If you need additional help finding recommendations let me know.


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## BDD888

AV Doogie,


Can you give specific recommendations? For both whole home and power bar type. Not sure I want to go to the expense of a whole home system. Then again I have no idea how much they cost. What is the brand to buy..etc.


Would a Panamax not suffice?


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## Viper1lt

I am pretty happy with the APC AV H15BLK.










It is probably overkill for your needs, but I like when it raises power when my central AC kicks in.


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## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BDD888* /forum/post/17028576
> 
> 
> AV Doogie,
> 
> 
> Can you give specific recommendations? For both whole home and power bar type. Not sure I want to go to the expense of a whole home system. Then again I have no idea how much they cost. What is the brand to buy..etc.
> 
> 
> Would a Panamax not suffice?



I use an IT XT40 unit for whole house protection. This is a higher end unit typically about 400 bucks.


IT also has other units which provide good suppression like the CHSPULTRA or CHSPMAX





* 2,880 Joules (total) or 2,400 Joules

* 180,000 Amps (maximum surge current) or 150,000 Amps

* 90,000 Amps per phase (L-N & L-G) or 75,000 Amps per phase

* 400 V UL 1449 2nd ddition clamping voltage (maximum surge current)

*


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## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Viper1lt* /forum/post/17081318
> 
> 
> I am pretty happy with the APC AV H15BLK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is probably overkill for your needs, but I like when it raises power when my central AC kicks in.



I assume you are indicating that the unit regulates the voltage level. You will know if you are happy with the unit when it takes a hit from a decent surge, if the unit still works and you have saved your equipment downstream.


I would still install a unit at the main panel to protect yourself. You don't want to sacrifice this nice looking voltage regulator in the event of a large surge....do you?


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## Viper1lt

AV Doogie,


The H15 has the following:


Surge Protection and Filtering Surge energy rating 5270 Joules

EMI/RFI Noise rejection (100 kHz to 10 MHz) 50 dB

Peak Current Normal Mode 80 (/PH) kAmps

Peak Current Common Mode 160 kAmps

Data Line Protection RJ-11 2-Way Modem/Fax/DSL splitter with protection (four wire dual lines),Co-axial Video / Cable protection,Coaxial 2-Way splitter with protection

Let Through Voltage Rating 

Standard Warranty 5 year repair or replace

Equipment protection policy

Lifetime : $750000


I do need to add a whole house suppressor soon at the panel as you said. We don't get a lot of lightning storms, but it only takes one hit.


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## BDD888

How much do whole home suppressors cost? And what are some good brands to look for?


Update (Sept 2nd). AV Doogie. Sorry. Didn't see your RE to my post.







$400.00. Not too bad. Thought it would be a few grand. Relief.


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## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BDD888* /forum/post/17108513
> 
> 
> How much do whole home suppressors cost? And what are some good brands to look for?



Look Up a couple of posts for some examples


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## PILLOWPANTS

Nasa does'nt think suppression is myth.. They should know ya think!


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## davekennedy

I just (Sept. 28, 2009) ordered an *APC H10 AV H Type Power Regulator - 1000VA, 120V* for $99.99 from TigerDirect. Shipping was $18.87. Not quite as good as the H15, but should meet my needs. It's not black, but the price was quite good. I'll hide it in the back behind the stand or something!


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## saumil




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Viper1lt* /forum/post/17107378
> 
> 
> AV Doogie,
> 
> 
> The H15 has the following:
> 
> 
> Surge Protection and Filtering Surge energy rating 5270 Joules
> 
> EMI/RFI Noise rejection (100 kHz to 10 MHz) 50 dB
> 
> Peak Current Normal Mode 80 (/PH) kAmps
> 
> Peak Current Common Mode 160 kAmps
> 
> Data Line Protection RJ-11 2-Way Modem/Fax/DSL splitter with protection (four wire dual lines),Co-axial Video / Cable protection,Coaxial 2-Way splitter with protection
> 
> Let Through Voltage Rating
> 
> Standard Warranty 5 year repair or replace
> 
> Equipment protection policy
> 
> Lifetime : $750000
> 
> 
> I do need to add a whole house suppressor soon at the panel as you said. We don't get a lot of lightning storms, but it only takes one hit.


 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...031&CatId=4715 


I don't see ampere rating anywhere on this link to tigerdirect.com From the website it looks like a Voltage regulator AVR/TVSS and not a significant help in Current Surge suppression.


APC H10 Features


* *Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR)*

Automatically steps up low voltage and steps down high voltage to levels that are suitable for your equipment.

* Surge Protection

The H10 Power Conditioner provides a high level of surge protection for the voltage going into the unit, thus protecting the devices connected to the unit. Additionally, surge protected coax/radio frequency (RF) connectors are protected against surges traveling over coaxial lines to protect your digital satellite system (DSS), CATV box, or cable modem. Similarly, the telephone line surge protection feature provides a protected splitter to allow output to a telephone, modem, Digital Subscriber Line (DSL) modem, fax, digital video recorder (DVR), DSS system, set-top internet service provider (such as WebTV), or pay-per-view cable TV function.

* Isolated Noise Filter Banks (INFB)

The H10 also provides INFB technology to eliminate electromagnetic and radio frequency interference that can negatively impact sound and video quality.

* IEEE let-through rating and UL 1449 compliance - The 'Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers' (IEEE) Let-Through Voltage rating is based on a test that subjects a Surge Protector to a 6,000 volt spike. The rating equates to the amount of excess voltage that reaches connected equipment. The lower the number, the better the performance of the Surge Protector is. Underwriter's Laboratory's UL1449 surge protection safety standard uses these ratings to help users gauge performance. UL's best *Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor (TVSS)* Let-Through Voltage rating is "300V".

* Lightning and Surge Protection - To prevent damage to your equipment from power surges and spikes.


Viper1lt mentioned *Peak Current Common Mode 160 kAmps* rating.


Am I missing something here?


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## UteBrian

So here's a question: If the coax line(s) from a satellite dish are grounded at a grounding block where they come in the house, why would you ever need a surge protector with coax line protection? If lightning struck the satellite dish, the surge would travel down the line, hit the grounding block, then that would be the end of it, right?


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## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *UteBrian* /forum/post/17403636
> 
> 
> So here's a question: If the coax line(s) from a satellite dish are grounded at a grounding block where they come in the house, why would you ever need a surge protector with coax line protection? If lightning struck the satellite dish, the surge would travel down the line, hit the grounding block, then that would be the end of it, right?



Correct. But only if your earthing is sufficient. A ground block and protector do the same thing. Both are only as effective as the earth ground.


A most common source of a direct lightning strike is AC mains - wires highest on the utility pole. Lightning strikes those wires down the street. Incoming on AC electric. Destructively through your electronics. Then to earth via the coax. Every incoming wire in every cable must also connect to that same earthing electrode - either directly (coax) or via a 'whole house' protector (telephone, AC electric). Any wire not properly earthed before entering the building can use other protected wires to harm appliances.


Cable companies recommend not using plug-in protectors (such as the Panamax) on their cable. It only degrades the signal. Since it does not have that all so critical short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth, the plug-in protector does nothing effective.


To protect from surges, a plug-in protector must somehow block or absorb the surge. To do that means it must block or absorb radio signals. So either it does nothing effective, or it degrades signals, or it does a little of both.


Superior protection means upgrading single point earth ground. Expanding the system. Removing wire defects such as sharp wire bends, wire too long, separating that ground wire from other non-grounding wires, etc.


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## Colm

The reason you need surge protection on the coax is because the grounding block only grounds the shield. There is still the center conductor to deal with.


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## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17409257
> 
> 
> The reason you need surge protection on the coax is because the grounding block only grounds the shield. There is still the center conductor to deal with.



To have a surge inside the cable means a surge must exist on the shield. In most cases, surge eliminated on the shield means no surge inside. Or according to a professional who describes it better: Richard Harrison in "Lightning Arrester" on 12 Dec 2003 in the newsgroup rec.radio.amateur.antenna:

> Coax, inside, rejects common-mode propagation of lightning energy.

> Coax, outside, needs good grounding to make a good path around

> (bypass for) protected equipment.


If you need protection for that inside conductor, you need a protector actually designed to provide that protection. And again, that protector must be connected short ('less than 10 feet') to earth. See Polyphaser for such protectors. And notice the price for these properly designed protectors for 'industrial strength' protection.


Plug-in protector that claims coax protection is even not recommended by cable companies. It only degrades a cable signal. It too far from earth ground to earth the typically destructive surge. And what an IEEE brochure even demonstrates; too close to the appliance to even earth a surge destructively through that TV.


Numerous reasons why a homeowner needs no protector on the center conductor and why such protectors do more harm than good. Reason one from Richard Harrison is more that sufficient to explain why sufficient protection is provided when the ground block is properly earthed. Properly earthed - not worrying about the center conductor - is more important many times over.


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## Colm

Yes, proper earthing is paramount. But there are circumstances when a damaging voltage differential can develop between the shield and the center conductor.


I was not recommending a plug in device. The surge needs to be stopped before it enters the building. You do not need "industrial grade" equipment to do this. The Polyphaser equipment relies on the same technology as can be found in less expensive intended for residential application.


The argument that cable companies recommend against such protection is a poor one. Cable companies are only interested in their own bottom line. The use of plug-in devices causes them to lose money in service calls. That is why they discourage the use of them. FWIW a device that uses a gas discharge tube should not cause any significant degradation to the cable service.


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## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17412967
> 
> 
> The argument that cable companies recommend against such protection is a poor one. Cable companies are only interested in their own bottom line.



Around here, cable company service calls are free. If their equipment fails even due to lightning, equipment is replaced for free - their cost. Once major companies took over hoe-dunk cable, then all installers were retrained in proper earthing. Increase costs. All customers got rewired. Why spend so much? Cable companies need better protection and reliable equipment to maintain customers.


What does a plug-in protector do on cable company lines. 1) No earth ground means no effective protection. 2) Degrades signals. 3) Can even contribute to electronics and coax wire damage due to being too close to the appliance and too far from earth ground. 4) Creates increased cable company costs when they must roll a truck to fix these many problems.


Every dollar spent on a plug-in protector is better spent upgrading earth ground - assuming the homeowner wants protected appliances. Numerous reasons why cable companies recommend no plug-in protectors on their cable.


To install protectors that do not degrade signals, see Polyphaser. Consumer grade (plug-in) protector is typically inferior - degrade cable signals. And is not located where it can provide protection - not located where a Polyphaser protector would be located. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Cable needs no protector to make that connection.


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## Colm

You keep harping on plug-in devices, which as I said, I do not recommend. Is there so reason for this?


Consider a gas-discharge tube for protection of a coaxial line in a whole-house protector properly installed and grounded at the service entrance of a house (proper earth ground and less than 10'). How would that gas-discharge tube be ineffective or degrade the cable signal?


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## fuelie

I researched surge suppressors for 6 to 7 months last year because I got tired of reading all the claims about joules ratings and how much of a warranty a particular surge protector would provide. I decided that there had to be something better out there. I found it, but it will cost you to get the ultimate in protection.


It is called series-mode surge suppression, and it doesn't use sacrificial components like MOVs. MOVs should be outlawed. They deteriorate, blow up, and cause fires. They provide the end user with a false sense of security and must be replaced every few years because of the deterioration.


The best of these series-mode devices is the SurgeX surge suppressor. The other 3 companies are licensees of SurgeX. SurgeX can take a 3000A, 6000V ( 18 million Watt ) spike and, unlike the other 3 companies, stop it dead in its tracks. No voltage whatsoever leaves the box, not on the ground or on the neutral wire like the other 3 companies. The other 3 companies are using old 1990's series mode 2-wire technology. SurgeX has gone way beyond that, and the other companies cannot use the new 3-wire technology because of the SurgeX patents.


Good bi-directional noise filtering is included. I compared the difference between SurgeX filtering and no filtering at all using a Monster noise sniffer. Without the SurgeX, the meter was overloaded beyond 199 millivolts of line noise, and the RFI was very loud. With the SurgeX, the noise sniffer showed 0 millivolts of noise, and I had to place my ear against the speaker to detect a faint amount of RFI.


With such a device, warranties against equipment damage and joules ratings so common in MOV-based devices are meaningless, and are not used in advertising. There is also no need for a coax connection on these devices.


I learned that the surgeX devices in varying designs are used to protect mission critical equipment where failure is not an option. I learned through my research that SurgeX is used to protect the uplink to the Hubble Space Telescope, to protect hospital surgical equipment and MRI machines, and used by some of the top names ( I won't name them ) in the movie and TV industry to protect their home theater systems.


I also learned that whole house surge suppressors aren't all that they are claimed to be because the farther away you get from the electrical panel, the higher the ground potential can rise so you can still damage equipment even though you have a whole house device.


The company also makes a more expensive high-end line called EmpowerAC, but it contains the same technology, but in a prettier, more expensive box. They also have ones that have under and over voltage protection.


I wouldn't waste my money on a cheap MOV-based surge suppressor as the sole means of protection, but you can plug in such a device, including a UPS to the SurgeX, and the MOVs will never go bad because they will never see a spike or surge.


For those of you in Hawaii, the Pacific North Western/ Hawaii region ( Washington State ) and National Sales representatives for SurgeX will be in Honolulu on business from Oct 26 to Oct 28. They can clear up the confusion that exists about any technological questions and the relationship between the 4 companies. You can find his name and phone number on the surgeX.com web site. Maybe they will even talk to you over a few beers or wine.


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## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fuelie* /forum/post/17413994
> 
> 
> It is called series-mode surge suppression, and it doesn't use sacrificial components like MOVs. MOVs should be outlawed. They deteriorate, blow up, and cause fires. They provide the end user with a false sense of security and must be replaced every few years because of the deterioration.



See that safety ground wire? The third prong on an AC plug? That wire connects a surge around a series mode device. Bypasses protection.


Series mode protector are supplementary protection. Must somehow block surges when professionals say surges cannot be blocked, stopped, or absorbed. It typically addresses a type of transient that can be filtered - that may be made irrelevant even by how electronics are designed.


Supplementary protection is ineffective without earthing and a 'whole house' protector. Once the 'whole house' protector is earthed, then supplementary protection can address lesser transients and noise. But noise must also be made irrelevant inside electronics. That is the point. Series mode filters are for transients that should have been made irrelevant inside the electronics.


MOVs are sacrificial only when the consumer has purchased a scam. Protectors that are undersized (and therefore have higher profits) get the naive to recommend them. Often heard, "My protector sacrificed itself to protect my computer." Reality: the protector was so grossly undersized as to fail when a surge was too small to damage anything else. Undersizing a protector means the naive will recommend it.


Meanwhile, properly sized (effective) surge protectors (ie one 'whole house') is rated at 50,000 amps (or more) to earth a direct lightning strike and remain functional. When an MOV protector is properly sized, even direct lightning strikes cause no damage.


Once the 'whole house' protector is earthed, only then will a surge not use safety ground to bypass that series mode protector. Why? A destructive surge earthed before entering the building need not be seen by the Surgex, Brickwall, or Zerosurge protectors. Superior protection that does not cost $100+ per appliance - ie that Surgex. Superior protection costs about $1 per protected appliance.


Somehow that Surgex will stop what three miles of sky could not? Why does that claim have credibility? No protector stops or blocks such surges. Even the safety ground wire compromises (bypasses) that series mode filter. No way around what was well proven even 100 years ago. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


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## fuelie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17415539
> 
> 
> See that safety ground wire? The third prong on an AC plug? That wire connects a surge around a series mode device. Bypasses protection.
> 
> 
> Series mode protector are supplementary protection. Must somehow block surges when professionals say surges cannot be blocked, stopped, or absorbed. It typically addresses a type of transient that can be filtered - that may be made irrelevant even by how electronics are designed.
> 
> 
> Supplementary protection is ineffective without earthing and a 'whole house' protector. Once the 'whole house' protector is earthed, then supplementary protection can address lesser transients and noise. But noise must also be made irrelevant inside electronics. That is the point. Series mode filters are for transients that should have been made irrelevant inside the electronics.
> 
> 
> MOVs are sacrificial only when the consumer has purchased a scam. Protectors that are undersized (and therefore have higher profits) get the naive to recommend them. Often heard, "My protector sacrificed itself to protect my computer." Reality: the protector was so grossly undersized as to fail when a surge was too small to damage anything else. Undersizing a protector means the naive will recommend it.
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, properly sized (effective) surge protectors (ie one 'whole house') is rated at 50,000 amps (or more) to earth a direct lightning strike and remain functional. When an MOV protector is properly sized, even direct lightning strikes cause no damage.
> 
> 
> Once the 'whole house' protector is earthed, only then will a surge not use safety ground to bypass that series mode protector. Why? A destructive surge earthed before entering the building need not be seen by the Surgex, Brickwall, or Zerosurge protectors. Superior protection that does not cost $100+ per appliance - ie that Surgex. Superior protection costs about $1 per protected appliance.
> 
> 
> Somehow that Surgex will stop what three miles of sky could not? Why does that claim have credibility? No protector stops or blocks such surges. Even the safety ground wire compromises (bypasses) that series mode filter. No way around what was well proven even 100 years ago. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.



_____________________________


In the 1st paragraph, you claim "professionals" state that surges can't be stopped, blocked, or absorbed. What professionals are you referring to? Are they electrical engineers with intimate knowledge of these devices or just someone else writing an outdated and inaccurate review about the current status of series-mode technology or someone else posting their opinion on this forum? I get my information direct from manufacturers rather than from forums.


A SurgeX WILL "block" and "stop" a surge (dissipating the energy as a negligible amount of heat). That is a proven, substantiated fact, not theory or someone's opinion on a forum. It will stop 18,000,000 Watts of energy @ 6,000 Volts and 3,000 Amps dead in its tracks. It has an A-1-1 certification rating, the most stringent surge suppression rating in the industry. Others may claim to meet the rating, but are not certified to my knowledge.


I don't understand all of the implications, but whole house surge suppression may stop outside spikes from getting in, but the farther away you get from the electrical panel, the higher the ground potential can become. It is no longer zero so it is still necessary and better overall to add protection right at the device being protected.


You state that when an MOV protector is properly sized, even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. Then why is it that even though a video projector was protected by a so called "good quality" $200+or more, Monster MOV surge suppressor, the projector was damaged when our electric company had an island wide power failure? Are you suggesting that high-end Monster surge suppressors are a scam? Why is it that a friend's multi-million dollar yacht in Florida, with "excellent protection" suffered $250,000 of damage because of a direct lightning strike to the antenna?


Even a SurgeX or any other series-mode device can't protect against a direct lightning strike.


I have spoken directly with experts at SurgeX, BrickWall, and ZeroSurge, but not Torus Power in Canada. They all sell series-mode devices, but ONLY SurgeX has 21st century ZERO LET-THROUGH 3-wire technology while its 3 licensees, BrickWall, ZeroSurge, and Torus Power, are only permitted to sell 1990's 2-wire technology. It is still good technology, by SurgeX is the best and most current series-mode technology available.


I use SurgeX on my computer, plasma TV, and high-end audio equipment. If I couldn't afford the higher priced SurgeX, I would not hesitate to purchase one of the lower cost old technology alternative series-mode devices instead of wasting my money on even older MOV technology.


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## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fuelie* /forum/post/17424021
> 
> 
> _____________________________
> 
> 
> In the 1st paragraph, you claim "professionals" state that surges can't be stopped, blocked, or absorbed. What professionals are you referring to? Are they electrical engineers with intimate knowledge of these devices or just someone else writing an outdated and inaccurate review about the current status of series-mode technology or someone else posting their opinion on this forum? I get my information direct from manufacturers rather than from forums.
> 
> 
> A SurgeX WILL "block" and "stop" a surge (dissipating the energy as a negligible amount of heat). That is a proven, substantiated fact, not theory or someone's opinion on a forum. It will stop 18,000,000 Watts of energy @ 6,000 Volts and 3,000 Amps dead in its tracks. It has an A-1-1 certification rating, the most stringent surge suppression rating in the industry. Others may claim to meet the rating, but are not certified to my knowledge.
> 
> 
> I don't understand all of the implications, but whole house surge suppression may stop outside spikes from getting in, but the farther away you get from the electrical panel, the higher the ground potential can become. It is no longer zero so it is still necessary and better overall to add protection right at the device being protected.
> 
> 
> You state that when an MOV protector is properly sized, even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. Then why is it that even though a video projector was protected by a so called "good quality" $200+or more, Monster MOV surge suppressor, the projector was damaged when our electric company had an island wide power failure? Are you suggesting that high-end Monster surge suppressors are a scam? Why is it that a friend's multi-million dollar yacht in Florida, with "excellent protection" suffered $250,000 of damage because of a direct lightning strike to the antenna?
> 
> 
> Even a SurgeX or any other series-mode device can't protect against a direct lightning strike.
> 
> 
> I have spoken directly with experts at SurgeX, BrickWall, and ZeroSurge, but not Torus Power in Canada. They all sell series-mode devices, but ONLY SurgeX has 21st century ZERO LET-THROUGH 3-wire technology while its 3 licensees, BrickWall, ZeroSurge, and Torus Power, are only permitted to sell 1990's 2-wire technology. It is still good technology, by SurgeX is the best and most current series-mode technology available.
> 
> 
> I use SurgeX on my computer, plasma TV, and high-end audio equipment. If I couldn't afford the higher priced SurgeX, I would not hesitate to purchase one of the lower cost old technology alternative series-mode devices instead of wasting my money on even older MOV technology.



You need to gather some facts on these units and compare them using the same standards. Again, I am looking for the third party testing that would allow me to believe the sales hype.


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## Jack500

What is THE IDEAL setup for a home theater system which would include:


a. Surge protector

b. UPS

c. Power line conditioner

d. Automatic voltage regulator

*Questions*

1. All-in-one system or separate components?

2. If separate components, how separate?

3. How should they be connected?

4. Specific recommendations?

5. Why?

*Rules*

1. Money is no object

2. No Snake Oil


I am looking for the best, that's it. Again, no snake oil.

Thanks in advance.


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## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fuelie* /forum/post/17424021
> 
> 
> In the 1st paragraph, you claim "professionals" state that surges can't be stopped, blocked, or absorbed. What professionals are you referring to? Are they electrical engineers with intimate knowledge of these devices ...
> 
> A SurgeX WILL "block" and "stop" a surge (dissipating the energy as a negligible amount of heat). That is a proven, substantiated fact, not theory or someone's opinion on a forum.



This electrical engineer with a few decades of design experience says your are either promoting a scam or have been taken in by the scam. But other professionals will be quoted.


First, where is a long list of spec numbers that supports your claims? Your posts are subjective. Few numbers imply trivial if any protection (discussed later).


It will 'block' and 'stop' a surge? Do you really believe what sales brochures tell you to believe? NIST (US government research agency) - also called professionals - say what protectors must do.

> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective

> devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground,

> where it can do no harm.


Despite your denials - professional state quite bluntly that a protector cannot 'stop', 'block', 'arrest', or 'absorb' surges. No effective protector does that. Why is Surgex contradicting professionals? Do you really hope a tiny filter will stop what three miles of sky could not? Damned if you do. Somehow your Surgex will 'suppress' or 'arrest' a surge? Nonsense. Somehow you know more than the NIST because you were told what to believe by Surgex sales brochures?


Why did you again ignore that safety ground wire? Another path for the surge to bypass your series mode filter. Or did Surgex forget to discuss that weakness so that you would ignore it? I asked it before. Why does that safety ground wire that bypasses a Surgex not carry the surge?


A series mode filter can provide supplementary protection. But is ineffective (and not used by professionals) when it is the only protector. Supplementary protection only after serious protection is earthed. Supplementary protection that is often is not necessary if a properly earthed protector is installed.


More from the NIST:

> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by

> diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be

> useless if grounding is not done properly.


NIST describes your Surgex: "can be useless if grounding is not done properly". Could it be any more blunt? A protector without earth ground has no place to harmlessly dissipate energy. Which should I believe? You who claim a small Surgex will store hundreds of thousands of joules? Or professionals who have been doing this stuff for 100 years with routine success. Which should I believe?


Having done this stuff, I go with the professionals. And I note more of your claims that contradict even basic electrical engineering concepts.


Where does energy get dissipated? If your Surgex can store all that energy, then slowly release it, well, you have just proven we can routinely store and use lightning. Funny how nobody has been able to capture that free energy. Surgex would not lie. Somehow it must store and slowly release that energy. We just forgot to tap that free energy? Why are we so ignorant and Surgex is so smart? Maybe Surgex can store energy that nobody else has been able to?


To store energy, that Surgex must conduct 20,000 amps incoming and outgoing. Or does your electricity flow with only an incoming path and no outgoing path? Even in second grade science, electricity did not work that way. Where is the outgoing path for that 20,000 amps? No outgoing path means the Surgex cannot store any energy. Ironic. The outgoing path is through the 'so called' protected appliance. What kind of protection is that? Mythical.


Let's see. Orange Count FL suffered surge damage to emergency response equipment. So they installed a series mode filter? Of course not. Instead they consulted professionals. Simple solution. Upgrade what provides surge protection. Fix what dissipates a surge - harmlessly. Earth ground:
http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm 


From QST magazine (the voice of the ARRL) in a July 2002 article entitled "Lightning Protection for the Amateur Radio Station":

> The purpose of the ground connection is to take the energy arriving on

>the antenna feed line cables and control lines (and to a lesser extent

> on the power and telephone lines) and give it a path back to the

> earth, our energy sink.


Even amateur radio operators understand what is necessary for protection. How do you contradict reams of professionals? By typically ignoring facts. By even ignoring a safety ground that bypasses your series mode protector. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. But somehow Surgex will contradict professionals (and the NIST) to perform miracles?


Sun Microsystems needs effective protection for server rooms. Do they install series mode protectors? Of course not. Sun says that energy must not even enter the building. From Sun's installation guide:

> Section 6.4.7 Lightning Protection:

> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The

> plans for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify

> any paths for surge entry into the data center. Surge arrestors ...

> should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to ground

> for the surge energy.


Why do professionals say that? Professionals have understood this stuff for over 100 years. How many decades is your design experience? You did not even know what the NIST said. With basic knowledge, you would have known that without reading the NIST. Insufficient knowledge is further apparent in a Monster Cable myth.


Monster Cable has a long history of sell scams. Monster takes a grocery store protector circuit selling for $7. Adds some fancy paint. Sells it for $150. And then you call it:

> ... a so called "good quality" $200+or more, Monster MOV surge suppressor

Are you that poorly informed? If Monster is selling it, it must be a scam. Did you know speaker wire also has polarity? Monster said so. Therefore Monster Cable could also sell $7 of speaker wire for $70 - and be recommended in posts that look so much like yours.


Let's view the few numbers you did provide. If a Surgex filter can stop a surge, you can tell us what its breakdown voltage is. Every device has a breakdown voltage. Yours only claims 6000 volts? So you tell us surges never exceed 6000 volts? Nonsense. Anything that would stop (or store) a surge means that device has the entire voltage on it. A basic concept from electrical engineering. Voltage will increase as necessary to blow through the stopping device. When was the last time lighting (or other destructive surges) was always less than 6000 volts?


It only stops 3000 amps? The average lightning strike is 20,000 amps. We install effective protection so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. No damage even to the protector. An effective 'whole house' protector - rated at least 50,000 amps - so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage.


A 'whole house' protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. How much is that Surgex to only protect one appliance? $300? At what point does the myth also get expensive? $300 and it does not even withstand on average lightning strike? Those are your numbers. Somehow it will magically make surge energy just disappear? Show me any professional that makes that claim.


Does it somehow store a direct lightning strike; then make that energy slowly leak away? Congratulations. You just solved the energy crisis. Now we can absorb energy from all lightning strikes and slowly power the rest of the world. Yes, as long as junk science works.


More myths:

> ...the farther away you get from the electrical panel, the

> higher the ground potential can become.


How curious. Where protection has been installed for 100 years to make even direct lighting strikes irrelevant - better protection means up to 50 meter separation between the protector and earth ground. That separation means even better protection. But it helps to first learn basic electrical concepts such as wire impedance. Without fundamental knowledge, you must believe what salesmen tell you to believe. Why do telcos - that must never have surge damage - want their electronics up to 50 meters separated from the protector. So your salesmen invented the GP myth? Or did you?


Effective protection means energy does not enter the building. Or did the professionals from Sun Microsystems lie? Once inside the building (with or without the Surgex), that energy will hunt destructively for earth ground. But then you just learned that from the NIST: "The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly." Surgex has no earth ground. But it does have a safety ground so that surges can bypass the Surgex. Same safety ground has been cited repeatedly - and repeatedly ignored by you. Or maybe the Surgex rated for 3000 amps will somehow magically absorb 20,000 amps. After all, three miles of the best insulator could not stop it. But a silly little Surgex will?


Why do professionals always discuss earthing and lightning. Why do they not just plug in a magic solution from Surgex? Professionals deal in reality? Salesmen promote myths? Your numbers even define the Surgex as ineffective. Too small. Does not protect from the typically destructive surge. Costs 300 times more money. But it must be better only because you know so. And how many systems did you design to suffer direct lightning strikes without damage? Meanwhile, as stated previously, you are posting in direct contradiction what professionals have known for over 100 years.


We install protectors for direct lightning strikes. Other smaller transients are made irrelevant by protection already inside appliances AND by that 'whole house' protector. But you would spend $300 per protected appliance - and not protect from lightning? Just another reason to smell a scam. Somehow that electricity is incoming but no outgoing path? More smell of the scam. We install one 'whole house' protector - about $1 per protected appliance - to protect from direct lightning strikes. Also necessary to protect that Surgex rates only for 6000 volts or 3000 amps. Why then should we spend 300 times more money for the Surgex - that does not even protect from the typically destructive surge - lightning? Because we like to be scammed? Or because you told us to trust you. Clearly I was wasting a few decades learning this stuff. Next time I will wait for you to learn from the sales brochure.


If I really wanted to be scammed, I would buy your 'high quality' Monster Cable product. Even the NIST says why the Monster Cable is also ineffective. "The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly." A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. But somehow the professionals are wrong and Surgex is right?


Please do not selectively reply. You recommended the Surgex. Your reply to every paragraph should be chock full of Surgex spec numbers. You made the claim. Then you can quote the numbers. Let's start with its breakdown voltage - that must be massively higher than 6000 volts. And that safety ground wire that somehow will not bypass the Surgex.


Others also have asked the same question. Where are your numbers?


----------



## fuelie

Who ever said anything about lightning strikes? I certainly didn't. Who ever said anything about joules? I didn't, but a series-mode surge suppressor is equivalent to about 90,000 joules of energy capture. Are there any typical residential MOV-based "surge redirectors" that have such a high joules rating? I also didn't say that Monster surge suppressors ( redirectors ) are good. I used the term "so-called good quality". I didn't say they were good quality. You are mis-interpreting everything I say.


The surges I refer to are really called transients in the microsecond and millisecond range. Anything beyond that is a different type of event, a true ‘surge’. ANSI/IEEE Standard C62.41 deals with all aspects of surge energy and addresses all types of surge protection from entrance to outlet. Defined maximum energy at 6000v 3000a before catastrophic damage occurs. Anything beyond that is considered too severe to block.


For some electrical devices, the startup spikes can be in thousands of volts. Failure of an electrical device upstream from your device can damage that device.


The farther away you get from the electrical panel, the greater induced energy CAN become. Ground bonding lowers impedance (and energy ‘into’ ground) over distance – required by NEC in all new construction. Ground bonding lowers impedance and helps ‘drain’ induced fields and surge energy, but it is far from perfect! The only point in a system where ground and neutral are the ‘same thing’ is right at the service entrance where they are bonded together at the ground rods. The farther from the service entrance you go, the higher the ground impedance (resistance) and the greater the induced random stray electromagnetic energy. If you get far enough away, the ground isn't much different from neutral or even hot in rare cases. Even without a surge event present, ground in fact is hardly a ‘quiet low-voltage safe place’ that most of us tend to picture it as. It can be as nasty as the actual hot wire in some cases.


According to Ieee/ ANSI up to 6000 volts @ 3000 amps can still travel inside on the ground conductor during a surge event (before catastrophic damage), both via conduction as well as induction on the branch circuit – this is 18 MILLION watts.


Regarding MOV's, they simply dump energy elsewhere. Energy coming in on ground can just as easily pass to neutral or hot – MOVs are bidirectional! Surge energy (up to 6000v 3000a) goes both ways on ‘ground wire’. Electrical physics dictates this. If the unit being ‘protected’ is a lower impedance to ‘ground’, the energy will be proportionately delivered there. In other words, ground is contaminated. On branch circuits longer than 15 or 20 feet (every outlet in a house!), it’s entirely likely the device plugged in will present a low enough Z for surge energy to ‘sink’ at the chassis via the ‘safety ground’ pin. This is especially true if there is a heavy ‘single point ground’ at the far end, as is very common in high end sound & theaters – very often is a better ground than at the power service entrance! This is exactly what happened to a friend during last December's island-wide power failure. He lost $18,000 worth of AV processors, and the manufacturer determined that the surge came in on the ground pin of the balanced XLR input. The single-ended, RCA connection was unaffected. Under guidance from the AES (Audio Engineering Society) guidelines from the 1990s, virtually all audio gear built with balanced signal paths, chassis ground is bonded to signal ground with less than 1 Ohm of DC resistance. This means that if an MOV dumps it’s load onto your chassis ground, you are also dumping up to 6000v 3000a (18 million watts) right onto your pin-1 (XLR) audio ‘ground’!


The US Department of State experienced a number of fires involving multiple electrical outlet strips containing TVSS's. The component that failed and caught fire in each case was an MOV. An MOV-based surge suppressor was responsible for $150,000.00 loss in a fire at the embassy St. George's, Grenada. MOVs have been around since the 1970's, and they are designed to fail - 100% of them will fail eventually. Some companies recommend replacing MOV surge suppressors every few years. They are diversionary; they just move surge energy around.


Series-mode devices are the only products to achieve the stringent A-1-1 US Government rating. They provide both normal and common mode protection.


Whole house protection is not recommended because after you are 15-20 from the last suppression point (either the service entrance / ground rods or a series-mode suppression device, the wiring simply becomes an antenna for picking up stray surge energy. This is because ALL metal acts as an antenna – the longer the antenna, the more garbage picked up. it is based on the simple physics of energy induction in electromagnetic fields.


Now for a brief history of series-modeTM surge suppression.


Series-mode technology was developed and pioneered by Rudy Hartford, CEO and chief engineer of ZeroSurge, Andy Benton, chief engineer of SurgeX and Michael McCook, president of SurgeX. The SurgeX brand comes under the company name of New Frontier Electronics. In January, 2009, Electronic Protection System ( EPS ) purchased the North American operations of New Frontier Electronics, while the international component remains under the New Frontier name.

http://blog.digitalcontentproducer.c...s-forces-with- 

esp/


All the series-modeTM technology patents and intellectual property rights are solely owned by ESP/SurgeX, not ZeroSurge, BrickWall, or Torus Power. The term “series-mode”TM is a SurgeX trademark. SurgeX sued Furman a few years ago because Furman claimed to have series-mode technology. They do not. SurgeX's patented and trade marked series-modeTM technology was certified A-1-1 by UL 1449 adjunct testing in 1995.


I was mistaken when I said that ZeroSurge, BrickWall, and Torus Power are all licensees of SurgeX. ZeroSurge is the ONLY licensee of the SurgeX patented technology, and ZeroSurge licensed both the 90's 2-wire technology as well as the 2005 3-wire zero let-through technology. While SurgeX shows zero-let through, ZeroSurge shows minimal let through, due in part to the use of different rated components.


Brickwall devices are just rebranded ZeroSurge devices, and are made in the same ZeroSurge facility as ZeroSurge devices. They are also A-1-1 certified.


ZeroSurge makes and sells series-mode technology modules to Torus Power, and it is my understanding that they are the original 2 wire design. Torus Power adds its own noise filtering.


ZeroSurge and BrickWall noise filtering consists of the filtering that the inductor coil can provide. They do not and cannot use the SurgeX patented Impedance Tolerant EMI/RFI noise filtering technology. So far, they have chosen not to design their own specific noise filtering circuitry.


If you look at the SurgeX website under library, you will see an OLD white paper which states that surge energy is slowly release to the neutral wire. That is not true of SurgeX as of 2005 when the new 3-wire zero let-through technology was patented. Unlike the other 3 brands, every Advanced Series-mode surge suppressor sold by SurgeX is a true zero let-through device. No surge energy leaves the box. It is completely absorbed and dissipated as a negligible amount of heat up to 6,000 Volts and 3,000 amps ( 18,000,000 Watts ) 1,000 times and beyond without any degradation of components. It has been vividly demonstrated by SurgeX at trade shows that MOV's blow to bits at this high an energy level while the SurgeX just sits there unaffected by the surge energy.


SurgeX devices are more expensive that ZeroSurge and BrickWall because they are consistently zero let-through devices, and because of the advanced noise filtering technology. SurgeX also has Catastrophic Over/Under Voltage Shutdown ( COUVS ) as well as Inrush Current Eliminator ( ICE ) technology in some of its product line. Next year, SurgeX will be coming out with a new residential line of devices to compete with such familiar names as Panamax as well as UPS's. Their high-end www.empowerac.com line will be absorbed as a SurgeX branded product.


Also, don't confuse surgeX ( http://www.surgex.com ) with surgex ( lowercase x ) ( http://www.surgexsports.com )


If you can't afford the best, then by all means purchase a ZeroSurge product or BrickWall product. They are by far leaps and bounds better than any MOV device on the market, but neither ZeroSurge, BrickWall, nor Torus Power are on par with SurgeX.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fuelie* /forum/post/17443707
> 
> 
> Who ever said anything about lightning strikes? I certainly didn't. Who ever said anything about joules? I didn't, ...



You said surge protection. That means protection from lightning. What else typically causes so much surge damage? And what does lightning seek? As the NIST said, effective protection means earthing. Earthing so that destructive energy does not enter the building (ie Sun Microsystems). Low impedance connection to earth because the destructive microsecond surge (ie ANSI/IEEE C62.41) is lightning. You said surge protection. You said C62.41. That standard defines lightning - what an effective protector is installed to protect from.


What is the typical waveform used in datasheets to rate surge protector components? 8/20 microseconds? Also describes lightning. Why use a lightning waveform if surge protectors are not for lightning protection? Oh. Effective protectors are for lightning protection at about $1 per protected appliance. You recommend spending $300 - and it does not protect from lightning.


Why did Orange County FL upgrade earthing and not install series mode protectors? Protection was required for a common destructive source - lightning.


To increase protection, professionals locate a protector distant from electronics and as close to earth as possible (ie US Air Force). Induced surge on long wires? Made irrelevant even by an NE-2 neon glow lamp. A tiny light that conducts milliamps will easily eliminate your induced surge even on antenna wires that are hunderds of feet long. So where is your number that defines that induced surge? Oh. You forgot to mention even milliamps through an NE-2 can eliminate it. You Surgex recommendations come chock full of things you forget to mention.


A typically destructive surge is 20,000 amps. But a Surgex rated only for 3000 volts will magically absorb 20,000 amps without damage. Really.


To store energy, a Surgex must conduct 20,000 amps incoming and outgoing. Or does your electricity flow with only an incoming path and no outgoing path? Even in second grade science, electricity must have both an incoming and outgoing path. What is the outgoing path for that 20,000 amps? Again you will not say. Another example things you forget to mention.


"The farther from the service entrance you go, the higher the ground impedance". You got that right. And what did the NIST say? The protector must divert a surge to earth. When impedance to ground is too high, well, that energy will hunt for earth elsewhere - ie destructively via nearby appliances. Surgex with that long (high impedance) connection to earth does what with that energy? Current must flow to earth no matter how you spin it. Once inside a building, a surge can even use the safety ground wire to bypass the Surgex. To find earth ground destructively via appliances. Is that why you ignore a 'bypassing' safety ground wire? Another example of a protector promoted by ignoring reality.


What appliance is creating thousands of volts on startup? You name it. Then we know the appliance that destroys itself everytime on startup. No reason for a surge protector. If that appliance creates thousands of volts, then it does not exist long enough to damage anything else. Another thing you forgot to mention. Invent a mythical thousand volt appliance. Then sell a Surgex at $300 per protected appliance.


So, what did the NIST say about your Surgex?

> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding

> is not done properly.


What did Sun Microsystem say?

> These should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to

> ground for the surge energy.

Surgex cannot do that and does not claim to. Surgex permits surge energy inside the building - a violation.


What did the ARRL say?

> The purpose of the ground connection is to take the energy ... and

> give it a path back to the earth, our energy sink.

Surgex (and plug-in protectors) cannot do that and do not claim to.


What did Dr. Kenneth Schneider of Telebyte say:

> Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to ground. ... Thus,

> redirecting the threatening surge on a path-of-least resistance (impedance)

> to ground where it is absorbed.

Surgex cannot do that. You still make no protection claims with numbers.


What does the US Air Force training manual require?

> Install the surge protection as soon as practical where the conductor

> enters the interior of the facility.

As close to earth ground as is practicable. How curious. That is what effective protectors have done for over 100 years.


How to identify ineffective Surgex protectors? They discuss the company history because 1) it has no dedicated earthing wire, and 2) company will not discuss the 100 year proven need for earthing. Earthing - where surge energy gets harmlessly absorbed.


Why do you ignore a safety ground wire that permits surges to completely bypass the Surgex. Oh. If promoting a Surgex in salesman mode, then any reality that might hurt the sale is ignored. Your few spec numbers say the Surgex will not even protect from lightning. Will not protect from typically destructive surges. Where are your numbers for any protection? More facts you forget to mention.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fuelie* /forum/post/17443707
> 
> 
> Who ever said anything about lightning strikes? I certainly didn't. Who ever said anything about joules? I didn't, but a series-mode surge suppressor is equivalent to about 90,000 joules of energy capture. Are there any typical residential MOV-based "surge redirectors" that have such a high joules rating? I also didn't say that Monster surge suppressors ( redirectors ) are good. I used the term "so-called good quality". I didn't say they were good quality. You are mis-interpreting everything I say.
> 
> 
> The surges I refer to are really called transients in the microsecond and millisecond range. Anything beyond that is a different type of event, a true surge'. ANSI/IEEE Standard C62.41 deals with all aspects of surge energy and addresses all types of surge protection from entrance to outlet. Defined maximum energy at 6000v 3000a before catastrophic damage occurs. Anything beyond that is considered too severe to block.
> 
> 
> For some electrical devices, the startup spikes can be in thousands of volts. Failure of an electrical device upstream from your device can damage that device.
> 
> 
> The farther away you get from the electrical panel, the greater induced energy CAN become. Ground bonding lowers impedance (and energy into' ground) over distance - required by NEC in all new construction. Ground bonding lowers impedance and helps drain' induced fields and surge energy, but it is far from perfect! The only point in a system where ground and neutral are the same thing' is right at the service entrance where they are bonded together at the ground rods. The farther from the service entrance you go, the higher the ground impedance (resistance) and the greater the induced random stray electromagnetic energy. If you get far enough away, the ground isn't much different from neutral or even hot in rare cases. Even without a surge event present, ground in fact is hardly a quiet low-voltage safe place' that most of us tend to picture it as. It can be as nasty as the actual hot wire in some cases.
> 
> 
> According to Ieee/ ANSI up to 6000 volts @ 3000 amps can still travel inside on the ground conductor during a surge event (before catastrophic damage), both via conduction as well as induction on the branch circuit - this is 18 MILLION watts.
> 
> 
> Regarding MOV's, they simply dump energy elsewhere. Energy coming in on ground can just as easily pass to neutral or hot - MOVs are bidirectional! Surge energy (up to 6000v 3000a) goes both ways on ground wire'. Electrical physics dictates this. If the unit being protected' is a lower impedance to ground', the energy will be proportionately delivered there. In other words, ground is contaminated. On branch circuits longer than 15 or 20 feet (every outlet in a house!), it's entirely likely the device plugged in will present a low enough Z for surge energy to sink' at the chassis via the safety ground' pin. This is especially true if there is a heavy single point ground' at the far end, as is very common in high end sound & theaters - very often is a better ground than at the power service entrance! This is exactly what happened to a friend during last December's island-wide power failure. He lost $18,000 worth of AV processors, and the manufacturer determined that the surge came in on the ground pin of the balanced XLR input. The single-ended, RCA connection was unaffected. Under guidance from the AES (Audio Engineering Society) guidelines from the 1990s, virtually all audio gear built with balanced signal paths, chassis ground is bonded to signal ground with less than 1 Ohm of DC resistance. This means that if an MOV dumps it's load onto your chassis ground, you are also dumping up to 6000v 3000a (18 million watts) right onto your pin-1 (XLR) audio ground'!
> 
> 
> The US Department of State experienced a number of fires involving multiple electrical outlet strips containing TVSS's. The component that failed and caught fire in each case was an MOV. An MOV-based surge suppressor was responsible for $150,000.00 loss in a fire at the embassy St. George's, Grenada. MOVs have been around since the 1970's, and they are designed to fail - 100% of them will fail eventually. Some companies recommend replacing MOV surge suppressors every few years. They are diversionary; they just move surge energy around.
> 
> 
> Series-mode devices are the only products to achieve the stringent A-1-1 US Government rating. They provide both normal and common mode protection.
> 
> 
> Whole house protection is not recommended because after you are 15-20 from the last suppression point (either the service entrance / ground rods or a series-mode suppression device, the wiring simply becomes an antenna for picking up stray surge energy. This is because ALL metal acts as an antenna - the longer the antenna, the more garbage picked up. it is based on the simple physics of energy induction in electromagnetic fields.
> 
> 
> Now for a brief history of series-modeTM surge suppression.
> 
> 
> Series-mode technology was developed and pioneered by Rudy Hartford, CEO and chief engineer of ZeroSurge, Andy Benton, chief engineer of SurgeX and Michael McCook, president of SurgeX. The SurgeX brand comes under the company name of New Frontier Electronics. In January, 2009, Electronic Protection System ( EPS ) purchased the North American operations of New Frontier Electronics, while the international component remains under the New Frontier name.
> 
> http://blog.digitalcontentproducer.c...s-forces-with-
> 
> esp/
> 
> 
> All the series-modeTM technology patents and intellectual property rights are solely owned by ESP/SurgeX, not ZeroSurge, BrickWall, or Torus Power. The term series-modeTM is a SurgeX trademark. SurgeX sued Furman a few years ago because Furman claimed to have series-mode technology. They do not. SurgeX's patented and trade marked series-modeTM technology was certified A-1-1 by UL 1449 adjunct testing in 1995.
> 
> 
> I was mistaken when I said that ZeroSurge, BrickWall, and Torus Power are all licensees of SurgeX. ZeroSurge is the ONLY licensee of the SurgeX patented technology, and ZeroSurge licensed both the 90's 2-wire technology as well as the 2005 3-wire zero let-through technology. While SurgeX shows zero-let through, ZeroSurge shows minimal let through, due in part to the use of different rated components.
> 
> 
> Brickwall devices are just rebranded ZeroSurge devices, and are made in the same ZeroSurge facility as ZeroSurge devices. They are also A-1-1 certified.
> 
> 
> ZeroSurge makes and sells series-mode technology modules to Torus Power, and it is my understanding that they are the original 2 wire design. Torus Power adds its own noise filtering.
> 
> 
> ZeroSurge and BrickWall noise filtering consists of the filtering that the inductor coil can provide. They do not and cannot use the SurgeX patented Impedance Tolerant EMI/RFI noise filtering technology. So far, they have chosen not to design their own specific noise filtering circuitry.
> 
> 
> If you look at the SurgeX website under library, you will see an OLD white paper which states that surge energy is slowly release to the neutral wire. That is not true of SurgeX as of 2005 when the new 3-wire zero let-through technology was patented. Unlike the other 3 brands, every Advanced Series-mode surge suppressor sold by SurgeX is a true zero let-through device. No surge energy leaves the box. It is completely absorbed and dissipated as a negligible amount of heat up to 6,000 Volts and 3,000 amps ( 18,000,000 Watts ) 1,000 times and beyond without any degradation of components. It has been vividly demonstrated by SurgeX at trade shows that MOV's blow to bits at this high an energy level while the SurgeX just sits there unaffected by the surge energy.
> 
> 
> SurgeX devices are more expensive that ZeroSurge and BrickWall because they are consistently zero let-through devices, and because of the advanced noise filtering technology. SurgeX also has Catastrophic Over/Under Voltage Shutdown ( COUVS ) as well as Inrush Current Eliminator ( ICE ) technology in some of its product line. Next year, SurgeX will be coming out with a new residential line of devices to compete with such familiar names as Panamax as well as UPS's. Their high-end www.empowerac.com line will be absorbed as a SurgeX branded product.
> 
> 
> Also, don't confuse surgeX ( http://www.surgex.com ) with surgex ( lowercase x ) ( http://www.surgexsports.com )
> 
> 
> If you can't afford the best, then by all means purchase a ZeroSurge product or BrickWall product. They are by far leaps and bounds better than any MOV device on the market, but neither ZeroSurge, BrickWall, nor Torus Power are on par with SurgeX.



Some clarifications you should understand.


1) The 6000V @ 3000A value is typically used as a test waveform for standard testing of industrial grade type suppressors. You would not get 18 million watts of energy from this scenario because the waveform duration is very short (less than 20 micro seconds). You are either not reading or understanding the way that suppressor testing is performed.


2) You indicate that Series mode devices are the only devices to achieve A-1-1 government rating. I don't even know what this means??? There are numerous manufacturers which provide third party testing of their suppression devices and achieve the best possible ratings within the specified categories for energy suppression, EMI/RFI filtering and ring wave suppression. These are category B, C and voltage let through tests. I guarantee you that if you supply 18 million watts to your surgeX device, It will not survive!!


3) You state the following which is complete B.S. Whole house protection is not recommended because after you are 15-20 from the last suppression point (either the service entrance / ground rods or a series-mode suppression device, the wiring simply becomes an antenna for picking up stray surge energy. This is because ALL metal acts as an antenna - the longer the antenna, the more garbage picked up. it is based on the simple physics of energy induction in electromagnetic fields. . You need to spend some time learning more about the standard practices of providing multiple levels of suppression....and learn some more about EM field theory.


Please don't spread any more of this crap as you have done above. It is not helpful for those looking to get solid advice based upon good engineering and standard industry design practice.


----------



## Colm

1) How is 6000V @ 3000A not 18,000,000W? Power is an instantaneous value. Time has nothing to do with it. IIRC this is simply the definition of the maximum probable surge event that needs to be protected against. 6000V @ 3000A is applied during the B3 high exposure ring wave test.



2) The A-1-1 "U.S.Government rating" is not a rating at all. It is simply part of a classification system that was part of a now apparently defunct Commercial Identification Description (at least for DOD) used for federal purchasing of 15A plug-in or cord-connected surge suppressors. It just means a device that passed the B3 combination wave test per IEEE C62.41, has a 330V Suppressed Voltage Rating, and provides only normal mode protection. I suppose the only reason that SurgeX devices are the only ones to "achieve" this rating is that virtually all other such devices provide common mode protection as well. So read what he said as "SurgeX plug-in or cord-connected 15A surge suppressors are the only ones that provide only normal mode protection..."


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17449760
> 
> 
> 1) How is 6000V @ 3000A not 18,000,000W? Power is an instantaneous value. Time has nothing to do with it. IIRC this is simply the definition of the maximum probable surge event that needs to be protected against. 6000V @ 3000A is applied during the B3 high exposure ring wave test.



Really, A joule per second (the definition of a watt) has nothing to do with time??


6000V @ 3000A can also be applied during a C1 combination wave.


----------



## Colm

Yes, but keep reading...


----------



## Colm

Haven't figured it out yet?


watt = joule/second -> joule = watt second


In other words, one watt maintained for one second is equal to one joule.


----------



## Colm

One more thing to think about...


That worst case test scenario of 6000V @ 3000A works out to less than 100J because of the short duration. That is what a 100W incandescent lamp uses in one second. If you were able to store it and release it over ten seconds, it would only be the equivalent of a 10W lamp, certainly possible to dissipate as heat and be effectively unnoticeable. The big question is what happens when the device is hit by multiple surges in quick sequence.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Personally, I have never read a really thorough and impartial explanation about TVSS devices, and it is beyond my expertise to delve into myself, I'm not an EE.


I use a SurgeX in my AV rack, and I use some TrippLite "ISOBARULTRA" strips elsewhere for computers and my projector. I spent maybe $275 for these devices, which may be somewhat exorbitant but again since I'm in a position of ignorance regarding surge supressors I wanted to avoid the real cheap stuff mainly out of peace of mind, which may or may not be wasted money.


But again, I've got probably close to $30K of electronics if you think MSRP, on these, so say $300 to protect them (well, I hope protect them) doesn't seem unreasonable to me, even if spending $20 per surge protector might achieve the same/similar degree of protection.


I've taken apart some furman and panamax units before, and they just seemed cheesy for the prices they're charging, but then again like I said I'm not an EE I don't really understand what I'm looking at.


One thing that I do like about the SurgeX is the ICE circuit. I tested that out in a layman's fashion with my big vaccuum cleaner, which when I turned it on from a stopped-motor position would cause the picture to roll on my older CRT projector when I had that hooked up or if I plug in lights to the outlet they would dim (room lighting is on a different circuit) but the ICE seems to prevent that from happening when something big first clicks on (big caps, big motor etc).


But again, I don't really know if I should or should not have peace of mind with the protection I currently have, or whether I should in the future not spend so much money on it. I've never really found any really good explanations that were specific enough to particular products that made it very helpful to really know what I should be looking at.


----------



## fuelie

You people continue to amaze me by how you mis-interpret things I say or take things out of context like news people often do, and twist things around to suit your own purpose to defend your old school of thought. Why do you keep bringing up lightning strikes as if that is the only source of an electrical surge/spike inside one's home? Spikes generally last in the milli-second and micro-second range. Real surges typically last longer and must be handled in a different manner. Even that short of an energy surge/spike can damage sensitive equipment. What about surges/spikes from devices that might fail within your home? What about the noise that is generated on your house wiring by refrigerator or vacuum cleaner or other motors and devices, or etc? What about surges/spikes from electric utilities? What happens when power goes out during a storm, or etc.? Do electric utilities have surge arrestors that are guaranteed to prevent any and all surges/spikes coming into your home when the power is restored? Not in my state they don't!


Are you claiming that the whole electrical surge suppressor business is a scam, and that no one should bother buying a surge suppressor or surge redirector ( MOVs )? Are you on the payroll of an MOV surge redirector manufacturer? Are you saying that US Government agencies using series-mode surge suppressors, including NASA to protect the uplink to the Hubble Space Telescope, are being scammed and ripped off? That's a pretty bold and brazen accusation, especially when the US Government developed the A-1-1 standard for surge suppression in the first place. I personally know someone who had his computer and a few other electronic items plugged into a SurgeX box while other electronic items and a coffee maker were not. When lightning struck about a mile or so from his house, the resulting surge/spike energy destroyed the devices that were not plugged into the SurgeX box. His computer and other connected equipment didn't even flinch. His house grounding resistance is less than 0.1 ohm.


If you people think that series-mode surge suppression is such a SCAM, they why don't you contact the appropriate government agencies to file a formal complaint and have the 4 companies involved shut down? I can guarantee that you will not only fail in your attempt, but you will become a laughing stock among your colleagues and members of this forum.


How old are the documents you are referring to? Are they up-to-date with 21st century technology, theory, and techniques or from the 1950's?


If you don't know what a US Government A-1-1 standard is, then you are probably not keeping up with current literature in your field. That US Government classification has been around since 1996. I refer you to just one article explaining what A-1-1 means. I'm sure there are plenty of others, including some you can probably obtain from UL Laboratories. You conveniently forgot to mention category A in your post. I wonder why. Did you not know that it exists in the US Government standard because you don't bother to read the literature in your field?

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/ma...ppressor_work/ 


BTW, SurgeX uses a big surge generator at trade shows all the time to generate 18,000,000 Watts of energy to show that MOVs blow up with that much energy while the SurgeX box that the surge generator output is also plugged into just sits there fat, dumb, and happy, demonstration after demonstration, day after day. The surge energy is clamped down by the primary inductor, the rest is stored in large capacitors, and then dissipated as a small amount of heat by being "worked to death" totally inside the box. The surge ( spike ) energy does not leave the box on the ground or the neutral wire. That is why it is called Zero Let-through. It is 21st century technology, not 19th or 20th century technology.


Earthing - where surge energy gets harmlessly absorbed. That isn't a correct statement. Ground contamination by a surge redirectors and other factors can damage other electronic devices as it did my friend's $18,000 AV processor. His home also has excellent grounding as required by law. My own house ground resistance measures around 0.67 ohms.


I was warned by someone that I would be wasting my time trying to educate people and clear up all the mis-information and nonsense that posters are spreading around on this forum about series-mode surge suppression so I'm going to stop wasting my time, and move on. I've got more important things to do with my precious, valuable time. This is my last post anywhere on this forum. I can't believe the amount of crap that is being spread on this site by people who are obviously from an ancient, old school of thinking, and don't want to keep up with current technologies in their field and learn something new. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. No matter what you do to explain new technology to such people, they will continue to believe whatever they want to believe and say you are wrong.*After all, some people, called birthers, still believe that President Obama was born in Africa instead of Hawaii, despite all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Maybe you folks are among them. The people posting on this site should get their head out of the sand and learn what new late 20th and 21st century technology exists out there to solve electrical surge problems instead of relying on 30 year old theory and practices or 100 year old technology.


----------



## Colm

Do I have to state that explicitly the 6000V, 3000A for your coveted A-1-1 rating? That comes with the B3 combination wave test, which I mentioned. FWIW one could claim that a A-1-2 rating is better than your A-1-1 rating because they provide common mode protection as well as normal mode protection.


Frankly, claiming that the surge energy does not leave the box, and saying it is beat to death by triacs, makes one dubious of the accuracy of anything you say. And since you are making allegations that some of us work for manufacturers of MOV based systems, let me offer the conjecture that you are somehow associated with the sale or marketing of SurgeX products. You certainly do not sound like an engineer.


As for your testimonials, do a little searching around here, and you will find the same kind of testimonials of MOV based devices protecting valuable equipment.


I have no doubt that you can blow up MOV based products that aren't designed for it with a 18,000,000W surge. But that are plenty of products that will pass the B3 combination wave test, or as a previous poster has pointed out the C1 test.


I, for one, do not doubt that the SurgeX products do what they claim to do, provide normal mode protection, and in some ways in a superior manner to what MOV based products do. I have read the patents. And I appreciate that they do not contaminate the equipment grounding conductor, which can cause its own problems.


I do take issue with the MOV bashing. MOVs, properly sized and used, are not sacrificial devices. Yes, they have a service life. But it is many years in a properly designed system.


If you want to have a rational discussion of surge protection instead of using poor rhetoric so typical of your previous posts and much of what is on the SurgeX site, please do. There are many here who will listen. But if you want to continue with your rhetoric, then by all means, go with your gut feelings and leave.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChrisWiggles* /forum/post/17452832
> 
> 
> But again, I've got probably close to $30K of electronics if you think MSRP, on these, so say $300 to protect them (well, I hope protect them) doesn't seem unreasonable to me, even if spending $20 per surge protector might achieve the same/similar degree of protection.



You read what the NIST said. How many other professionals and researchers did you read before you start ignoring sales propaganda. Every surge protection system has one component that defined the heart of that protection layer - single point earth ground.


You know about ground loops in stereos? One of the many concepts that is also required as part of the protection system. Effective protection systems use the same concept - single point earth ground. A solution that has been well proven for over 100 years. A solution routinely installed in telco switching centers, munitions dumps, cell towers, nuclear hardened radio stations, and anywhere else that damage even from direct lightning strikes cannot happen.


How many times did you ignore a nearly biblical requirement as defined by the NIST?

> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector

> will work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge

> protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done

> properly.

There is no ambiguity. That is hard fact and reality. Does the ARRL have a hidden agenda? What do they recommend for surge protection? Earthing.


Lightning strikes church steeples. Why? Lightning selects a most conductive path to earth. Wood is a good electrical conductor. But since wood is not conductive enough, then that 20,000 amps creates a large voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage results in massive (destructive) energy. How did Franklin avert surge damage? That 20,000 amps was connected to earth via a lighting rod and conductive wire. 20,000 amps times near zero voltage is near zero energy. No damage.


What is the word always associated with effective protection? Divert. Not stop, block, absorb, arrest, suppress, etc. Effective protectors divert, shunt, connect, conduct, clamp, or bond a surge on a low impedance connection to single point earth ground.


Energy is the concept behind effective surge protection. Where does that energy get dissipated? Not stored (which cannot happen). Not stopped (as myths promote). Where is energy dissipated? Franklin simply diverted energy harmlessly to earth. A massive surge dissipated in earth means no damage.


Where does your surge get dissipated? Do hundreds of joules in an Isobar absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? That is what Tripplite says. Do the numbers for that Surgex as provided by fuelie. His 6000 volts times 3000 amps surge (as defined by ANSI/IEEE C62.41) means a 250 joules rating. How do devices rated only to absorb hundreds of joules (only 250 joules according to fuelie's numbers) make energy from destructive surges just magically disappear?


Once a surge is permitted inside the building, energy will hunt for earth ground destructively via appliances. In every location where surge damage must never happen, a surge current (energy) must not enter the building. How does lightning strike a munitions dump so often without explosions? Your appliances suffer surges much less often. What makes more sense? Spending less money for the solution routinely used in munitions dumps. Or spending massively on the Surgex that (according to fuelie's numbers) can only absorb 250 joules.


Your telco computer - connected to overhead wires all over town - suffers about 100 surges with each thunderstorm. Even documented in the Bell System Technical Journals (which one is an engineer - therefore also provides sources). How often is your town without phone service for four days? View your local switching station. Notice, no wires connect to the building. All wires drop underground before entering. Every cable first enters an underground vault so that every wire can be connected short to earth. And so that the protector will be up to 50 meters separated from electronics. Why? Do telcos all over the world do that because they have a secret agenda?


Earthing always provides the protection. Energy must be dissipated in earth so that it does not enter the building. Even Franklin demonstrated the concept in 1752. How many would forget basic science to believe a sale brochure claim? Most.


That up to 50 meters of wire between protector and electronics increases protection. Even today, earthing is what the best protected buildings always install or upgrade.


Even AC electric struck down the street is a direct lightning strike to your appliances. All appliances contain significant protection making most transients completely irrelevant. So that protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed, the informed consumer earths a 'whole house' protector. Again, where does that energy get dissipated?


Companies such as Tripplite, APC, Monster Cable, etc will not discuss this. Who provides effective solutions? The more responsible and well respected companies including Siemens, ABB, Intermatic, Leviton, General Electric, Keison, and Square D. An effective Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector sells in Lowes for less than $50. Yes, that is superior protection for about $1 per protected appliance.


Why do so many not know any of this? You demonstrate the problem. Your every post assumes protection is inside a box. Wrong. Protection is always about the thing nobody sees. And about how wires connect to that buried electrode. Why do so many preach ineffective plug-in protectors? View profit margins. The same protector circuit found in a $7 grocery store protector is sells under the Monster Cable label for $150. With profit margins so high, a majority will believe what they are told. Only a minority actually have technical knowledge or will first review manufacturer spec numbers.


Spec numbers - none are provided for the Surgex or the Isobar. Show me where the manufacturer claims protection from each type of surge - with numbers. You cannot. Neither claims protection from the typically destructive surge. They are required to provide a joules numbers to have a UL safety rating. Even that joules says ineffective protection. How many joules will it absorb? How does hundreds of joules stop surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? At what point do you actually view the numbers rather than listen to hearsay?


Energy. It’s all about where that energy gets dissipated. Its all about what path conducts tens of thousands of amps. It all about the concepts even demonstrated by Franklin in 1752.


Do telcos have a secret agenda? Or do they want surge protection? Sun Microsystems have a secret agenda? Or do they want minimally sufficient protection for Sun Server rooms? US Air Force? IEEE Standards? British Standard BS6651? Munitions dumps? NASA? Commercial broadcast stations? In every case, protection means a short connection to single point earth ground. Protection is always about where energy gets absorbed. Protection always means transient currents do not and need not enter a building. In every case, a protector is only as effective as the component that provided protection - single point earth ground.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

That's why I'm asking the question, because there is so much conflicting information out there, and most of it comes from people working for one company or another, hence my reticence to trust a great deal of it.


However, The 1-A-1 classification for use in AV systems does seem to be legitimate to me. Again, this is why I'm asking, because I'm not an EE, and I neither want to overspend nor do I want to leave stuff totally unprotected. I'm not horribly concerned about lightning which is very rare where I live, and if we get a bad lightning storm maybe once a year or less, I just unplug everything. I'm more concerned about things like windstorms and power lines getting knocked down and it kicking back on and that sort of thing with surges etc.


I'm not sure what you're getting at about the Isobar "absorbing" surges, my understanding was it's just an MOV shunting device, and it dumps to ground.


And I know that there are other reputable companies like Lowell who also make series-mode surge protectors that I would assume are similar to SurgeX's devices.


Again, I'm just trying to get a grasp on what specific products I should be looking at. Articles that discuss specific products are almost always biased, and the ones that aren't that come from power companies or the government and the like are so vague as to be fairly useless and they refrain from recommending specific things except to "understand what it is you're buying" which I don't, hence the confusion! I don't like being in a position where I am blindly spending money on something, and in this case I only justify it out of peace of mind and the fact that it isn't a horribly unreasonable sum relative to the cost of the equipment on the circuits.


I considered a whole-house protector, but you also have to add in the cost of the electrician to install it, which exceeds what I've spent on standalone units so far, and my understanding on surge devices at the panel is that they're probably the best for large surges/lightning which is really a minor/insignificant concern where I am relative to other locations where that would be a big deal (miami or something!), and that supplementary protectors where the devices are are still recommended (am I wrong about that?).


----------



## AV Doogie

Chris,


There are plenty of reputable manufacturers out there with suppression equipment which has been through the third party testing .....and will provide the documentation to prove it. While I can not tell you if the the SurgeX or other similar units are worth the money....I would tend to ignore them since they do not have the third party testing I am looking for. Nor can they be used to protect the main service in a residential, commercial or industrial type situation. They are simply plug-in units with limited capabilities and without third party testing to back them up.


The majority of the installed suppression is clearly 'MOV' style devices. These type of devices have been used for decades. They can provide excellent protection for a long period of time if implemented properly.


As always, you need to install a unit at the incoming panel for overall protection, place additional plug-in units downstream to protect additional sensitive equipment and make sure that your ground system is adequate.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

My understanding was that SurgeX devices were tested by UL or other third parties? TrippLite is a little more vague, but I presume the same is true?


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChrisWiggles* /forum/post/17457383
> 
> 
> My understanding was that SurgeX devices were tested by UL or other third parties? TrippLite is a little more vague, but I presume the same is true?



Is there a UL tag on the unit?


UL 1449 is a safety test... to make sure that the unit does not catch fire if internal elements fail or become stressed.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17455231
> 
> 
> Do hundreds of joules in an Isobar absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules?



Do we really have to worry about surges that are thousands of joules? Worst probable case for a surge is 6000V, 3000A per IEEE. Why did they pick these numbers? They picked 6000V because above that you are likely to get arcing between terminals, or terminal and the pan, at the service entrance. They picked 3000A because that was the maximum probable current because of the inductance of the wiring. Given the short duration of the surge, this works out to something on the order of 100 joules. A direct strike on the building can certainly result in more, but then you need to employ different technology to protect against damage.


In any case, I think the real shortcomings of the SurgeX technology are two-fold. First, there isn't a whole-house solution because it would be way too expensive. Second, it only provides protection for the AC.


It is too bad fuelie decided to take his ball and go home. He might have been able to answer some questions which would shed some light on this technology. As it is, his actions just make this entire technology look shady.


----------



## Colm

Just a comment on the cascade approach to protection...


When originally suggested, the idea was that you have a device at the service entrance to handle the majority of the energy of the surge, and devices with lower clamping voltage (and let-through voltage) downstream to handle what was left over. It sounds good, but the problem with this approach is that what happens is the downstream device winds up doing most of the work because it clamps first, hardly what is desired. The cascade approach can still be applied, but one needs to carefully coordinated the clamping voltages of the whole-house device and the down-stream devices. The whole-house device needs to kick in first.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17457916
> 
> 
> Just a comment on the cascade approach to protection...
> 
> When originally suggested, the idea was that you have a device at the service entrance to handle the majority of the energy of the surge, and devices with lower clamping voltage (and let-through voltage) downstream to handle what was left over.



It sounds good as long as we ignore what a protector does. A protector is only a connecting device; not protection. Protection is single point earth ground.


A surge goes to earth via a 'whole house' protector. If grounding is insufficient, the surge goes inside the building; approaches plug-in protectors. Will that plug-in protector earth that surge back to an overloaded ground? Of course not. The plug-in protector may earth that surge inside the buidling, destructively, via nearby appliances.


Again, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


Every protection layer (cascading) is defined by the only component that defines each protection layer - earth ground. Above 'whole house' protector and earthing is only secondary protection. All homeowners are encouraged to inspect another layer - primary protection system. What defines primary protection?
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html 


Surges entering from earth ground, destructively through appliances, then back to earth? Even most electricians do not understand how they might subvert surge protection. A utility defines how to correct a defective installation. Why? Because earthing - not the protector - is protection. What some homeowners must do to have surge protection:
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm 


Chris Wiggles - where is bias from so many professionals? Does not exist when professionals define protection - especially single point earth ground - using science. How many get rich selling single point earth ground? Notice how a utility (Cinergy) is also so biased? Cinergy simply describes how professionals have installed surge protection for over 100 years.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChrisWiggles* /forum/post/17457241
> 
> 
> That's why I'm asking the question, because there is so much conflicting information out there, and most of it comes from people working for one company or another, hence my reticence to trust a great deal of it. ...
> 
> I'm not sure what you're getting at about the Isobar "absorbing" surges, my understanding was it's just an MOV shunting device, and it dumps to ground.



A majority who recommend surge protectors are missing even minimal electrical knowledge. Bias is routine and obvious first and foremost because those articles and hearsay violate basic electrical concepts. Do not even provide numbers. Most will claim a protector will stop, block, or absorb surges only because that is what they were told - hearsay.


More accurate is what you thought a Tripplite might do. Then add what most routinely forget. Where does energy get diverted to? Too often not via safety ground due to excessive impedance. An engineering concept that ineffective protectors and hearsay ignore. A concept that makes obvioius which sources are based in science - not sales brochures or hearsay. Only a tiny minority who recommend protectors have engineering knowledge AND that design experience. You should be moving on; asking the informed how to improve your protection. From your description, you don't have superior protection. Fortunately destructive surges typically occur maybe once even seven years (another number).


Step back; view the entire circuit. A surge is typically incoming on utility wires to make a connection to earth. Either that current is earthed before entering the building (ie a 'whole house' protector). Or that surge gets connected to earth unfortunately via household appliances.


What does a Tripplite do? Shortest electrical path to earth may be through adjacent appliances. Problem is obvious. No dedicated wire for that short connection to earth. Voltage will increase as necessary to obtain earth.


For example, an IEEE brochure shows a protector connecting a surge 8000 volts destructively through an adjacent TV. 8,000 volts? Yes. Which also exposes that Surgex 6000 volt maximum protection as insufficient. Earthing a surge destructively through adjacent appliances defines one problem with plug-in protectors (see Dr Martzloff's paper).


What does that Surgex do? See that safety ground wire. Just another way a surge can be earthed destructively via adjacent appliances. Those who recommend Surgex on knowledge from a sales brochure still ignore that safety ground wire - and other electrical concepts. At best, it is supplementary protection AFTER effective protection is installed.


Critical to effective protection is low impedance. Not resistance (ie wire diameter). Impedance (adversely increased by wire length, sharp bends, wire inside metallic conduit, etc). What professional discuss and what myths ignore - wire impedance.


A 1994 IEEE paper from Dr Martzloff describes damage created by plug-in (point of use) protectors. Described in the first conclusion:

> Conclusion:

> 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable

> difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because,

> surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.


Posted previously were numerous professional citations on what protectors must do. Those sources alone should have been obviously unbiased. One company with highly regarded products is Polyphaser. Polyphaser application notes are also highly respected - often cited in sources for science papers. What does Polyphaser discuss? Their products? Of course not. Polyphaser discusses what provides surge protection - earth ground.


Read those app notes as well as this long list of other professionals who cite effective protection and why it is effective:
http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx 
http://www.mtlsurgetechnologies.com/...tans/index.htm 
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf 
http://www.terracon.com.au/includes/.../ERA-Paper.pdf 
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm 
http://*******.com/3y747k 
http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/grounding.htm 
http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/basics.htm 
http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/ground3.htm 
http://www.telebyteusa.com/primer/ch6.htm 
http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html 
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm 
http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm 
http://www.eham.net/articles/6848?eh...61e080ac23c416 
http://*******.com/2bwlhn 
http://lists.contesting.com/_towerta.../msg00327.html 
http://www.dslreports.com/faq/10431 
http://svconline.com/mag/avinstall_s...tionthe_enemy/ 
http://www.copper.org/applications/e.../nebraska.html 
http://www.atlanticscientific.com/lightning.html 


What makes these many citations different? They say 'why' and 'what' makes protection effective. And include numbers. What do so many here not provide? Numbers. Few provided numbers (6000 volts and 3000 amps) have been exposed as trivial protection (ie 250 joules and an 8000 volt surge earthed through an adjacent TV).


At what point did Sun Microsystems, US Air Force, every telco, NIST, IEEE, etc become biases sources? The sources that define earthing necessary for protection AND provide numbers should be the only citations worth your attention. Anything recommended on retail shelves should have the credibility of Saddam's WMDs.


In every case, the only component always required for surge protection: single point earth ground. Isobar does not have it and Tripplite does not discuss it (both define an ineffective protector). Your Isobar would not be used in telco switching centers - where they need protection far superior to what you need. Your telco spends much less for their superior protection. You also could.


Others explain the concept. For example, this application note demonstrates two structures - each with its own single point ground. Every wire that enters either structure must first connect to that single point ground:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf 

Yes, even underground wires must be earthed before entering. Polyphaser app notes also said that AND said why. Where does Tripplite discuss any of this? Your Isobar does not even provide numbers that define protection from each type of surge. If you dispute this, then post those spec numbers. You cannot. Specs that actually define protection do not exist. At what point does it become that obvious???


Biased? IEEE Standards are biased? Standards are where IEEE makes recommendations. Numerous IEEE Standards are blunt about what provides surge protection. IEEE Green Book (Standard 142) entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':

> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a

> path which will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage.

Surgex does exactly what the IEEE defines as ineffective. To be effective, the Surgex or Isobar must be part of a the 'whole house' protector system; can only provide supplementary protection.


How many others quoted anything but hearsay from sales brochures or manipulated sales demonstrations? How to determine which source is being honest. An overwhelming majority will only recite half truths and subjective myths. Provide no spec numbers.


Above citations describe why this sound byte is relevant. A protector is only as effective as its ground. Not safety ground. Earth ground.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17458595
> 
> 
> A 1994 IEEE paper from Dr Martzloff describes damage created by plug-in (point of use) protectors.



And Martzloff describes a solution to ground reference problems a "ground reference equalizer" which is essentially a plug-in surge protective device that protects all ports of the connected equipment.


----------



## Colm

westom,


Here is a question I would like your opinion on. If I have all of my HT equipment connected to a single surge protective device which is robust enough, and protects all ports (AC, antenna, etc.), will it protect my HT equipment, albeit at the expense of damage to other things in the house when the surge is diverted to the equipment grounding conductor (safety ground) or grounded conductor (neutral)? If not, please explain why not.


----------



## ChrisWiggles




> Quote:
> Your telco spends much less for their superior protection. You also could.



Such as WHAT!? That's what this entire thread is about, and I'm getting inundated with nonhelpful stuff here.


The thread is titled "surge protector recommendations." I haven't seen one yet. AV Doogie recommended a whole house unit, which doesn't really pertain to a plug-in surge surpressor.


You haven't really explained a damn thing. Hence my frustration at years of seeing this question asked and never getting a good answer.


----------



## Colm

ChrisWiggles,


Take a look at the link above to what Martzloff had to say on one occasion. He is one of the few real experts on surge protection. It won't answer all your questions, but it should give you some insight.


To some extent, the whole surge protection thing is overblown. Most consumer level equipment is essentially surge immune to around 600V to 800V. Most of the transients generated internally in a typical residence are less than that and constitute nothing more than noise. The real threats come from outside due to lightning, utility switching transients, and transients that are generated as a result of power failures.


As westom has said many times, effective surge protection depends on preventing the surge from entering the building. This is accomplished by providing an adequate earth ground, using appropriate surge protective devices on each path a surge can take into the building (AC, telephone, cable, etc.), and connecting those devices to the earth ground via a low impedance path (less than 10 feet). Effectively this means that everything enters the house at the electrical service entrance. You can use a single whole-house device that combines the protection for all the paths. Or you can use a whole-house AC device along with separate devices for the other paths. Some of those devices are as simple as a coax grounding block. If you do this, in a typical residence, you probably don't need to do anything more for surge protection. You are pretty much good to go against anything except a direct lightning strike, or one close enough to induce significant voltages directly into your household wiring. Then you need a very different kind of protection.


Can you get adequate protection short of a whole-house solution? It depends on what you consider adequate. The big problem is the high impedance path to earth ground when you are more than a few feet from the service entrance. There is no guarantee that the equipment grounding conductor the surge is diverted to is the lowest impedance path to ground. But the surge will find the easiest way, and it may be through another piece of equipment. So now you are faced with protecting every significant piece of equipment individually with point-of-use devices. Even then, you may not be safe. The problem is that using point-of-use devices may do more harm than good in some cases, particularly if they provide common-mode protection. I will give you an example: all your HT equipment except your powered subwoofer and plasma TV is plugged into one surge protective device, and the subwoofer and TV into two more. A surge hits, the devices divert the surge to the equipment grounding conduct in a way that causes a voltage differential between the subwoofer, TV and the rest of the equipment. They now have very different ground references, but they are connected via the subwoofer cable, HDMI cable, etc., resulting in damage to one or more pieces of equipment. BTW this is one thing that SurgeX has going for it if it works as advertised--it doesn't divert surges to ground.


So, westom's point all along has been that one can only achieve adequate protection with a whole-house solution as described above. He isn't going to recommend a point-of-use device. My recommendation is that if you are going to use a point-of-use device, make sure that all ports of everything that is connected goes through it so they all have the same ground reference. It is still a compromise because of the inductance of the house wiring.


westom has mentioned some of the manufacturers of whole-house devices in the past. They are the same companies that are in the electrical equipment business, like Leviton, Square D and many others.


----------



## Colm

ChrisWiggles,


Take a look at the link above to what Martzloff had to say on one occasion. He is one of the few real experts on surge protection. It won't answer all your questions, but it should give you some insight.


To some extent, the whole surge protection thing is overblown. Most consumer level equipment is essentially surge immune to around 600V to 800V. Most of the transients generated internally in a typical residence are less than that and constitute nothing more than noise. The real threats come from outside due to lightning, utility switching transients, and transients that are generated as a result of power failures.


As westom has said many times, effective surge protection depends on preventing the surge from entering the building. This is accomplished by providing an adequate earth ground, using appropriate surge protective devices on each path a surge can take into the building (AC, telephone, cable, etc.), and connecting those devices to the earth ground via a low impedance path (less than 10 feet). Effectively this means that everything enters the house at the electrical service entrance. You can use a single whole-house device that combines the protection for all the paths. Or you can use a whole-house AC device along with separate devices for the other paths. Some of those devices are as simple as a coax grounding block. If you do this, in a typical residence, you probably don't need to do anything more for surge protection. You are pretty much good to go against anything except a direct lightning strike, or one close enough to induce significant voltages directly into your household wiring. Then you need a very different kind of protection.


Can you get adequate protection short of a whole-house solution? It depends on what you consider adequate. The big problem is the high impedance path to earth ground when you are more than a few feet from the service entrance. There is no guarantee that the equipment grounding conductor the surge is diverted to is the lowest impedance path to ground. But the surge will find the easiest way, and it may be through another piece of equipment. So now you are faced with protecting every significant piece of equipment individually with point-of-use devices. Even then, you may not be safe. The problem is that using point-of-use devices may do more harm than good in some cases. I will give you an example: all your HT equipment except your powered subwoofer and plasma TV is plugged into one surge protective device, and the subwoofer and TV into two more. A surge hits, the devices divert the surge to the equipment grounding conduct in a way that causes a voltage differential between the subwoofer, TV and the rest of the equipment. They now have very different ground references, but they are connected via the subwoofer cable, HDMI cable, etc., resulting in damage to one or more pieces of equipment.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17459440
> 
> 
> ChrisWiggles,
> 
> 
> Can you get adequate protection short of a whole-house solution? It depends on what you consider adequate. The big problem is the high impedance path to earth ground when you are more than a few feet from the service entrance. There is no guarantee that the equipment grounding conductor the surge is diverted to is the lowest impedance path to ground.



You can not get complete protection without a whole house approach. You are essentially leaving the front door open to vagrants who only then have to get through the kitchen door....which has a cheap little latch for safety.


Additionally, make sure that your grounding system is adequate by having it tested and inspected for proper bonding by a knowledgeable local electrician. Most electricians will not know how to test the ground rod and bonding system, but can provide a decent inspection of the grounding system nonetheless.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChrisWiggles* /forum/post/17459104
> 
> 
> Such as WHAT!? That's what this entire thread is about, and I'm getting inundated with nonhelpful stuff here.
> 
> 
> The thread is titled "surge protector recommendations." I haven't seen one yet. AV Doogie recommended a whole house unit, which doesn't really pertain to a plug-in surge surpressor.
> 
> 
> You haven't really explained a damn thing. Hence my frustration at years of seeing this question asked and never getting a good answer.



Sorry,


I recommend the IT (Innovative Technology) units simply because I have seen these units tested during presentations numerous times (they consistently have the lowest let through voltage capabilities, excellent ring wave suppression, and excellent heat sink capability for longevity), and the lack of BS is refreshing. They are now owned by Eaton.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17458841
> 
> 
> Here is a question I would like your opinion on. If I have all of my HT equipment connected to a single surge protective device which is robust enough, and protects all ports (AC, antenna, etc.), will it protect my HT equipment, ...



Return to the church steeple example. Even wood is a conductor. Better conductors include concrete, linoleum tile, and even some wall paints. For that 'virtual ground' solution to be effective, everything including any nearby heat ducts, other wires inside walls, and the floor must be integrated into that ground. Otherwise a surge current has alternative destructive paths through appliances to earth. Even some wall paints are conductive. Any protector without that short connection to earth cannot effectively avert (divert) typically destructive surges. We have even traced surge damage because the adjacent protector earthed a surge destructively through a network of powered off computers.


What did an IEEE brochure show? A surge permitted inside a building found earth 8000 volts destructively via an adjacent TV. And yes, we engineers literally located and replaced damaged semiconductors to learn why failures happen. How many others learned this stuff by identifying and replacing each damaged semiconductor? Not board swapping. We work at a level where actually electrical knowledge is required. A majority will recommend ineffective protectors using subjective reasoning because that is the popular urban myth. One here even recommends a protector that (he admits) does not protect from lightning. It does not protect from typically destructive surges? And he still recommends spending 300 times more money for it? His own admission exposed the Surgex as ineffective.


Learn from professionals. This paragraph alone should we 100% convincing to anyone. What do telcos use on six continents? Not a series mode (Surgex) protector. They need effective protection. Every telco uses what is well proven and what also costs tens or 100 times less money. An earthed 'whole house' protector. To make that protection even better, electronics are located up to 50 meters distant from that protector. Wire impedance - not wire resistance - says why. Wire impedance also says why plug-in protectors are not effective - are not earthed - do not even claim protection in their numeric specs. Wire impedance also identifies so many who should be in learning mode - not making any recommendations. Wire impedance says why protectors adjacent to electronics are ineffective - sometimes even destructive.


> There is no guarantee that the equipment grounding conductor the surge is

> diverted to is the lowest impedance path to ground. But the surge will find

> the easiest way, and it may be through another piece of equipment.


Nonsense. Total nonsense from retail promoters to protect obscenely profitable protectors. IEEE Green Book provides numbers for effective earthing:

> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a

> path which will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage.

> Even this means is not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...

> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes

> from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...


What is the source of damage? A human who did not learn these well proven and fundamental concepts. Earthing principles are so well proven that surge damage is directly traceable to human failure.


The informed consumer also inspects a utility installed primary' surge protection system. Each protection layer is always defined by an earthing electrode - not by a protector. To repeat what cannot be ignored: "What these protective devices do is ... simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm." Or an IEEE brochure - a surge earthed 8000 volts destructively through a nearby TV. Why do telcos all over the world locate electronics up to 50 meters separated from protectors? Because they are stupid? And still some will recommend a protector - with no earth ground - adjacent to electronics. So many will read this and still entertain hearsay, urban myths, and the junk science that promotes ineffective protectors. Protectors that cost tens or 100 times more money.


Using IEEE numbers, one may expect 0.2% additional protection from plug-in protectors that costs tens or 100 times more money. But again, how it is done. Facts provided WITH NUMBERS. Where is the plug-in protector spec that defines protection? Never provided. Manufacturer does not publish what he cannot claim. Notice how the Surgex gets promoted by a sales demonstration - not by science and numbers.


No way around something known for over 100 years - and denied by an overwhelming majority educated from retail shelves. Why do no plug-in protectors claim protection even in their numeric specs? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChrisWiggles* /forum/post/17459104
> 
> 
> Such as WHAT!? That's what this entire thread is about, and I'm getting inundated with nonhelpful stuff here. ...
> 
> You haven't really explained a damn thing. Hence my frustration at years of seeing this question asked and never getting a good answer.



Frustrated because you cannot find any Martians in Shangri-La? The problem is not a shortage of Martians. The problem is Shangri-La does not exist.


Which do you want? A plug-in protector OR effective surge protection. They are mutually exclusive. No plug-in protector manufacturer even claims protection in its numeric specs. That protection exists somewhere adjacent to Shangri-La. You either earth a 'whole house' protector. Or you do not want protection from typically destructive surges.


Listed long ago in this thread were responsible companies that make effective protectors. Notice companies not lists - APC, Tripplite, Belkin, and Monster Cable. Every solution is an earthed protector. That means 'whole house'.


If you want a plug-in protector, then buy the $7 power strip protector from a grocery store. Same circuit is also sold in $25 and $150 power strip protectors. Better is to pay $7 for the same thing. View the spec numbers. That $7 grocery store protector has same specs because it is the same circuit.


Another problem seen by most every fire department are scary pictures too frequently associated with plug-in protectors:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554 
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm 
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html 
http://*******.com/3x73ol 
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/ 
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/les...tectorfire.htm 
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339 


For example, they removed protector components - and the protector light said it was still good. Even the light is deceptive. A fire marshall describes why that fire threat is so common. You want this on a desktop of papers or on a rug behind some furniture? Are you asking for effective protection or for a plug-in protector? Which do you want?


You don't know frustration until you are in my shoes reading your post? I have posted this same conclusion at least 30 different ways. Because every post is chock full of numbers, you know the conclusions are accurate and from somehow who knows this stuff. And still you want to be scammed? Either you earth a 'whole house' protector or you want a protector that is not effective. Which do you want?


View those scary pictures - making it the 31st reason why no honest poster can recommend a plug-in protector. Do you get it? No informed and honest person can recommend a plug-in protector for appliance protection. Even the manufacturer does not claim that protection in his specs. Why do you 'know' that no plug-in protector will provide protection? None have earth ground. At this point, how could you not know that? A design engineer who may have been designing for longer than you existed says (does the soundbyte haunt you in your sleep yet?), "A protector is only as effective as its earth ground." That means zero plug-in protectors provide what you are asking for.


Chris - if you are asking for a plug-in protector, well, go to a web site entitled "I want to be scammed.com". Can I make it any simpler? A 100% complete reason why: A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


----------



## Colm

westom,


OK, I think it is pretty clear what the problem is when you shunt the surge to ground in a point-of-use device.


One more question. Would you please comment on normal (differential) mode surges, and the effect of a simple point-of-use surge protective device that provides only normal mode protection (line to neutral) as are recommended by some for interconnected equipment. Just what happens when the surge is shunted to the other line?


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Westom you're not making any sense and you're not suggesting any products.


You bashed series-mode surge protectors earlier, now you provide a link to ZeroSurge which is exactly what they sell, to an article that bashes MOVs.


All you are doing is repeating that a protector is only as good as it's ground, and then blaming the protector??? It either dumps to ground (if it's designed that way) at the panel, or it does it at the end outlet. Or both.


So you're not making any sense. Now you're bashing MOVs for dumping to ground. Before you were bashing series-mode devices for being worthless. What am I supposed to do, install a ground rod at every outlet and do a rain dance and hope I don't get hit with a surge?


I'm just here trying to gather information. There have been many previous surge suppressor threads, and like this one they haven't really been very illuminating at all.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17465866
> 
> 
> Would you please comment on normal (differential) mode surges, and the effect of a simple point-of-use surge protective device that provides only normal mode protection (line to neutral)



Normal mode transients are typically trivial - do not cause damage. These transients are irrelevant for numerous reasons starting with protection inside all appliances.


Destructive are transients created by events such as utility switching, high voltage wires falling on local distribution, and lightning. These longitudinal mode transients can blow through galvanic isolation; can overwhelm other internal appliance protection. These transients either are ignored by a plug-in protector OR are given more potentially destructive paths by that protector. These are the transients that bypass that Surgex via its safety ground wire. Time after time, when surge damage is identified and traced, the surge path was to earth ground. Longitudinal mode - the typically destructive surge. And why all high reliability facilities spend so much effort to make longitudinal mode transients irrelevant.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

How are they bypassing anything via the safety ground? Unless the lightning is hitting your electronics, where is it coming in via the safety ground?? It would hit the ground first before it ever got onto the safety ground, and it has no path anywhere via the safety ground unless you have multiple grounding rods in your system which AFAIK is illegal/not up to code.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChrisWiggles* /forum/post/17465900
> 
> 
> Westom you're not making any sense and you're not suggesting any products.



Chris - read only what is posted. Stop reading hidden meanings. Your biases are only confusing you. If you want to learn, start by assuming everything you know was probably wrong. Then read only what was posted - especially every number.


Zerosurge accurately shows what that indicator light reports. Nothing bashes MOVs. Exampled were MOV protectors so grossly undersized to maximize profits - to not provide protection. Nothing in the Zerosurge pictures discuss 'whole house' protectors. Did you get that? Zerosurge was critical of plug-in protectors that do not provide and do not claim to provide protection. Completely different is a 'whole house' protector.


Why assume plug-in and 'whole house' protectors do same? If you read only what I posted, you learned a 'whole house' protector does things that a plug-in protector cannot. A 'whole house' protector even earths direct lightning strikes and remains functional. A 'whole house' protector means nobody even knew a surge existed. And still some so ignore numbers as to believe MOVs are sacrificial devices.


Effective protectors are constructed using MOVs. So let's make it simpler. Point 1: Some of the crappiest protectors use MOVs. And some of the best protectors use MOVs. Zerosurge pictures show that IF you make no assumptions. Where does Zerosurge discuss 'whole house' protectors? It does not - obviously.


Let's make it simpler. Point 2: If you want to be scammed, buy a plug-in protector. If you want protection, earth a 'whole house' protector. A list of 'whole house' protectors were posted yesterday. Posted earlier were the numbers you memorized - because selection mean you grasped every number.


Let's make it simple. Point 3: Wall receptacle provides no earth ground. A receptacle is safety grounded; not earth grounded. Reading only what was posted means you read that earth ground "must meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code". Not safety ground. Every ground to wall receptacles obviously is not earth ground. If you disagree, then your post includes many numbers that say why you disagree.


Numbers Chris. Your every reply never has numbers. That suggests your eyes routinely glaze over with each number. You are learning nothing if reading subjectively. What was posted is consistent. But if you did not grasp every number as if your life depended on it, then you did not read what was posted. Ignoring numbers explains why you are confused and frustrated. Explains why your replies are inconsistent with what was posted.


Stop being accusatory. Your accusations say how much you still have to learn. You replies should be reposting every number with questions to better understand those numbers. Instead you are making the classic mistake - thinking subjectively. Not discussing every posted number.


You ignored facts posted previously. Even ignored so many 'whole house' protectors posted yesterday. Previously posted were numbers for any minimally effective protector. You did not even acknowledge that 'learn it or die' fact. AV Doogle also provided a very robust solution.


Posted were benchmarks to identify ineffective protectors. Did you read that? 1) It has no dedicated connection to earth. 2) Manufacturer does not discuss earth ground. If you did, then you know the difference is massive between a plug-in protector and a 'whole house' protector. But your repeated frustration suggests you ignored every number.


Plug-in protectors have no dedicated earth wire (Strike one). The manufacturer does not discuss earthing (Strike two). Its numeric specs make no claims for surge protection (Strike three). See those scary pictures that demonstrate frequent problems only with plug-in protectors (Strike four). The $25 and $150 plug-in protectors have the same protector circuit selling for $7 in a grocery store - because its purpose if profits; not protection (Strike five).


You asked for effective protection. Scary pictures alone show a major difference between plug-in and 'whole house' protectors. But then one is sold for maximum profit. The other is sold by far more responsible companies to provide actual surge protection. Numbers that define protection were also provided. If you grasped the numbers, you would not be so confused. If you posted actual questions with numbers rather than being accusatory, then I might actually believe you are reading before posting.


Somehow you are infatuated with MOVs rather than what makes MOVs so effective. Your replies suggest only superficial reading. Did not read multiple times with enough care to understand the massive difference between plug-in and whole house' protectors.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChrisWiggles* /forum/post/17466057
> 
> 
> Unless the lightning is hitting your electronics, where is it coming in via the safety ground?? It would hit the ground first before it ever got onto the safety ground ....



Lightning enters on all three wires. Only one connects to earth. Surge current travels to plug-in protectors with a safety ground wire tightly bundled to that wire. Breakdown voltage of insulators. Induced currents. Just two reasons why currents are now approaching that protector on all three wires.


What does protector filtering do? Some connects each wire to safety ground wire. Another path for current to get into the safety ground and destructively into electronics. Power strip protectors can dump the entire surge on a safety ground. Another path directly into electronics - bypassing the appliance internal protection.


What did Dr Martzloff state about plug-in (point of connection) protectors? They can contribute to appliance damage. Significant surge current end up on the safety ground for too many reasons.


What did we discover with an analysis at the semiconductor level? That protector earthed a surge directly into the computer motherboard. It compromised (bypassed) computer protection by diverting the surge directly onto the safety ground wire. Since that wire was too far from the breaker box, the surge took a best path to earth. Destructively through the motherboard. Into the network, out a third computer to earth via the phone line. All three powered off computers damaged only on semiconductors that formed a path from the surge protector to earth ground. A path made easier because the surge entered from protector into the computer via a safety ground wire.


Those are details. Bottom line: once a surge is permitted inside the building, it will hunt for earth destructively via any household appliance. Protection has always been about where energy dissipates. Any protection inside the building is too late. Buildings are chock full of sneaky conductive paths that make damage possible. You want the same solution used by telcos all over the world. A solution that costs tens or 100 times less than plug-in protectors. Actually does protect from lightning. And remains functional even after direct lightning strikes.


Effective protection means nobody knew the surge existed. Unfortunately that also means the naïve never knew a surge existed. Therefore the naïve could not recommend the effective solution. The naïve recommend protectors that fail - so that the naïve know a surge existed. Go figure.


----------



## ChrisWiggles




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17466087
> 
> 
> Lightning enters on all three wires. Only one connects to earth. Surge current travels to plug-in protectors with a safety ground wire tightly bundled to that wire. Breakdown voltage of insulators. Induced currents. Just two reasons why currents are now approaching that protector on all three wires.



Uh, two of those three wires connect to earth. Where do you get only one??? Neutral and ground are both bonded and grounded at the panel.



> Quote:
> What does protector filtering do? Some connects each wire to safety ground wire. Another path for current to get into the safety ground and destructively into electronics. Power strip protectors can dump the entire surge on a safety ground. Another path directly into electronics - bypassing the appliance internal protection.
> 
> 
> What did Dr Martzloff state about plug-in (point of connection) protectors? They can contribute to appliance damage. Significant surge current end up on the safety ground for too many reasons.
> 
> 
> What did we discover with an analysis at the semiconductor level? That protector earthed a surge directly into the computer motherboard. It compromised (bypassed) computer protection by diverting the surge directly onto the safety ground wire. Since that wire was too far from the breaker box, the surge took a best path to earth. Destructively through the motherboard. Into the network, out a third computer to earth via the phone line. All three powered off computers damaged only on semiconductors that formed a path from the surge protector to earth ground. A path made easier because the surge entered from protector into the computer via a safety ground wire.
> 
> 
> Those are details. Bottom line: once a surge is permitted inside the building, it will hunt for earth destructively via any household appliance. Protection has always been about where energy dissipates. Any protection inside the building is too late. Buildings are chock full of sneaky conductive paths that make damage possible. You want the same solution used by telcos all over the world. A solution that costs tens or 100 times less than plug-in protectors. Actually does protect from lightning. And remains functional even after direct lightning strikes.



WHICH IS WHAT!?!?!?!?



> Quote:
> Effective protection means nobody knew the surge existed. Unfortunately that also means the naïve never knew a surge existed. Therefore the naïve could not recommend the effective solution. The naïve recommend protectors that fail – so that the naïve know a surge existed. Go figure.



You're still not making any sense here.


----------



## ChrisWiggles




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17466059
> 
> 
> Chris - read only what is posted. Stop reading hidden meanings. Your biases are only confusing you. If you want to learn, start by assuming everything you know was probably wrong. Then read only what was posted - especially every number.



What biases? What are you talking about?


I am not assuming anything, but you're not telling me anything coherent.


I have never assumed anything in this thread. My very first post said among other things: *...I'm in a position of ignorance regarding surge supressors I wanted to avoid the real cheap stuff mainly out of peace of mind, which may or may not be wasted money.*


And:
*I don't really know if I should or should not have peace of mind with the protection I currently have, or whether I should in the future not spend so much money on it. I've never really found any really good explanations that were specific enough to particular products that made it very helpful to really know what I should be looking at.*


I don't know how much more clearly to state that I do not know much about the products I purchased, which I did so from a state of ignorance. Hence asking questions in this thread. Unfortunately, it's not helping get any good explanations of anything, I'm just going in circles and you're not making any sense.



> Quote:
> Zerosurge accurately shows what that indicator light reports. Nothing bashes MOVs. Exampled were MOV protectors so grossly undersized to maximize profits - to not provide protection. Nothing in the Zerosurge pictures discuss 'whole house' protectors. Did you get that? Zerosurge was critical of plug-in protectors that do not provide and do not claim to provide protection. Completely different is a 'whole house' protector.



Their article and other tech articles written by people affiliated with zerosurge do criticize MOVs. That's their main selling point. They appear to me to be very well-written articles, however I take them with a grain of salt because they have a particular product niche that obviously may bias their perspective, hence I don't just blindly accept what they're saying.



> Quote:
> Why assume plug-in and 'whole house' protectors do same? If you read only what I posted, you learned a 'whole house' protector does things that a plug-in protector cannot. A 'whole house' protector even earths direct lightning strikes and remains functional. A 'whole house' protector means nobody even knew a surge existed. And still some so ignore numbers as to believe MOVs are sacrificial devices.



Well that's what zero surge is saying that MOVs are sacrificial.


Do you understand just how contradicting, convoluted, confusing, and utterly disorganized your posts are? You are not making any sense.



> Quote:
> Effective protectors are constructed using MOVs. So let's make it simpler. Point 1: Some of the crappiest protectors use MOVs. And some of the best protectors use MOVs. Zerosurge pictures show that IF you make no assumptions. Where does Zerosurge discuss 'whole house' protectors? It does not - obviously.



I am looking for your point here. I don't see one.



> Quote:
> Let's make it simpler. Point 2: If you want to be scammed, buy a plug-in protector. If you want protection, earth a 'whole house' protector. A list of 'whole house' protectors were posted yesterday. Posted earlier were the numbers you memorized - because selection mean you grasped every number.



Well, I've been a zillion commercial installations with plug-in protectors as well as panel devices. I can't say that I'm convinced given that numerous utilities and others also recommend plug-in protectors of some type, because surges may originate inside a building particularly if it's a large commercial complex.



> Quote:
> Let's make it simple. Point 3: Wall receptacle provides no earth ground. A receptacle is safety grounded; not earth grounded.



What? What do you mean by this? Neutral and safety ground both are grounded to the earth. That's their nature. What are you talking about?



> Quote:
> Reading only what was posted means you read that earth ground "must meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code". Not safety ground. Every ground to wall receptacles obviously is not earth ground. If you disagree, then your post includes many numbers that say why you disagree.



Disagree with what? What the heck are you saying? Both the ground and the neutral are grounded AND bonded together at the panel. Obviously there is some resistance which may be a concern by the time you get all the way to where your outlet is, but what are you saying, that ground and neutral are NOT grounded!?



> Quote:
> Numbers Chris. Your every reply never has numbers. That suggests your eyes routinely glaze over with each number. You are learning nothing if reading subjectively. What was posted is consistent. But if you did not grasp every number as if your life depended on it, then you did not read what was posted. Ignoring numbers explains why you are confused and frustrated. Explains why your replies are inconsistent with what was posted.



That's because I'm not an EE, I've been busy with other things, and the numbers I have seen are conflicting and conflict with numbers and claims I've seen elsewhere.



> Quote:
> Stop being accusatory. Your accusations say how much you still have to learn. You replies should be reposting every number with questions to better understand those numbers. Instead you are making the classic mistake - thinking subjectively. Not discussing every posted number.



I'm not thinking subjectively. I'm asking questions which nobody is addressing in a coherent, intelligible way. English is my native tongue, and I have years of tech experience, but you're not making a damn bit of sense.




> You ignored facts posted previously. Even ignored so many 'whole house' protectors posted yesterday. Previously posted were numbers for any minimally effective protector. You did not even acknowledge that 'learn it or die' fact. AV Doogle also provided a very robust solution.
> 
> 
> Posted were benchmarks to identify ineffective protectors. Did you read that? 1) It has no dedicated connection to earth. 2) Manufacturer does not discuss earth ground. If you did, then you know the difference is massive between a plug-in protector and a 'whole house' protector. But your repeated frustration suggests you ignored every number.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Plug-in protectors have no dedicated earth wire (Strike one).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh? What do you mean? They're grounded. That's where they dump the surge if they're an MOV shunting it to ground. This strike does not make sense to me. Ball one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> The manufacturer does not discuss earthing (Strike two).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which manufacturer? Most simple MOV devices give you a light that at least verifies that ground is present. Doesn't tell you it's much good, but at least that it's there. That's not discussing it? This doesn't make sense to me either. Ball two.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Its numeric specs make no claims for surge protection (Strike three).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The only two devices I mentioned were a tripplite unit which does list joules of surge protection, as does the surgex unit. Ball three. I don't know how to interpret these claims because I'm not an EE and it has not been sufficiently explained to me by anyone here or elsewhere so I'm still in the dark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> See those scary pictures that demonstrate frequent problems only with plug-in protectors (Strike four).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes. But as you said, only if they're undersized MOVs and cheaply designed, so I don't see how that's relevant except to say that you shouldn't buy the cheapest plug-in protector you can find since it's probably cheesy and might catch on fire if hit with too many surges. Ball four.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> The $25 and $150 plug-in protectors have the same protector circuit selling for $7 in a grocery store - because its purpose if profits; not protection (Strike five).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, you wrote above stuff that contradicts this. There are clearly very different capabilities in different MOV plug-in units.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> You asked for effective protection. Scary pictures alone show a major difference between plug-in and 'whole house' protectors. But then one is sold for maximum profit. The other is sold by far more responsible companies to provide actual surge protection. Numbers that define protection were also provided. If you grasped the numbers, you would not be so confused. If you posted actual questions with numbers rather than being accusatory, then I might actually believe you are reading before posting.
> 
> 
> Somehow you are infatuated with MOVs rather than what makes MOVs so effective. Your replies suggest only superficial reading. Did not read multiple times with enough care to understand the massive difference between plug-in and ‘whole house’ protectors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I feel like I'm trying to listen to Glenn Beck here. You're going in rambling incoherent circles. I shouldn't be infatuated with MOVs yet I _should_ be infatuated with how they're so effective? What?
> 
> 
> I'm just trying to ask questions, and you're kind of treating me like a fool for trying to figure this stuff out. I don't appreciate it. If you want to provide something helpful, GREAT! Please do. Otherwise, what the hell? Sense: please start making some!
Click to expand...


----------



## duvetyne




> Quote:
> Uh, two of those three wires connect to earth. Where do you get only one??? Neutral and ground are both bonded and grounded at the panel.



Uh, two of those wires are hot, connected to the secondary of a transformer. One is neutral, connected to the center tap and ground.


Note: Edited by Mod


----------



## Colm

He's referring to a 120V circuit, one side of the 240V single phase 3 wire service. The grounded conductor (neutral, white wire) and the equipment grounding conductor (safety ground, green or bare wire) are indeed required to be bonded at the service entrance in the USA.


----------



## ChrisWiggles




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17468805
> 
> 
> He's referring to a 120V circuit, one side of the 240V single phase 3 wire service. The grounded conductor (neutral, white wire) and the equipment grounding conductor (safety ground, green or bare wire) are indeed required to be bonded at the service entrance in the USA.



Right. I see now what he meant with regards to surges coming in from the service side via the two phases + neutral. I was reading too fast & it was late.


Note: Edited by Mod


----------



## Colm

westom,


Would it be accurate to say that common mode surges are only going to enter a residence via some path besides the AC because the the grounded conductor (neutral) and the equipment grounding conductor (safety ground) are bonded at the service entrance? If not, please explain.


----------



## David Haddad

Insulting posts edited and deleted. Stay on topic.


----------



## Colm

Phone company practice has been mentioned in this thread. If anyone is interested, this shows the extent that phone companies go to to achieve adequate grounding and bonding.


----------



## Guinness77

Hi,

Wondering if anybody could give me a recommendation on the size of the whole house surge protector to get, I was looking at either the IT Eaton XT-40 or XT 100, or step up to the PTX160. I see that you get the better warranty with the PTX series, is there any other benefits? I have a 200 amp feed.


Thanks!


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Guinness77* /forum/post/17680410
> 
> 
> I see that you get the better warranty with the PTX series, is there any other benefits? I have a 200 amp feed.



Better warranties are usually attached to the most inferior products. For example, the better warranty proves GM products are overwhelmingly superior to Honda and Toyota. Obviously not.


You concern is the number of amps a protector will connect (divert, bond, shunt) to earth. A minimally acceptable 'whole house' protector starts at about 50,000 amps.


Remember, no protector provides protection. Protectors do not protect by absorbing surges. Protectors are only conducting devices that divert energy elsewhere. That energy must be dissipated in earth. Therefore any protector is made even better when the earth ground is upgraded - to both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code.


Some facilities massively enlarge their earthing just for that little bit extra protection.


Ignore that warranty. How many amps can that protector divert to earth? The average lightning strike is 20,000 amps. A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Combined with the primary surge protection system and current going to neighbors homes, that 50,000 amp protector should be sufficient even for the rarely seen 100,000 amp surge.


Protector's life expectancy increases exponentially when its current rating increases. Another factor to consider if your neighborhood is suffering direct lightning strikes annually. Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. Survey your neighbors for history over the past decade.


----------



## Guinness77

Westom,

Thanks for getting back to me. My neighbor's house had a surge year or two ago, and he lost some equipment. That is all that I know of, and do not know what the cause was. My office which is about 10 miles away lost a few computers do to a surge (I live in Massachusetts, we get a few storms, but many power outages do to falling tree's, etc..) This is what I was looking at:


The XT 50/100
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcS...ILE&dID=161628 


The XT 40
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcS...ILE&dID=305481 


Or The PTX 120/160
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcS...ILE&dID=305487 


Which one would you choose, or do you recommend a better option?


Thanks For Your Help


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Guinness77* /forum/post/17681945
> 
> 
> My neighbor's house had a surge year or two ago, and he lost some equipment. That is all that I know of, and do not know what the cause was. My office which is about 10 miles away lost a few computers do to a surge



Everyone in MA should have, at minimum, the Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) protector that sells in Lowes for less than $50. Those other protectors are even better. Nice is one that can actually report number of transients. Useful information.


In your location, other requirements may apply such as NEMA environment due to where it is mounted. Your electrician better defines those requirements.


Minimal current is 50,000 amps. The Cutler-Hammer unit does that. Your other units are for high currents - longer life expectancy especially on heavier (industrial) power supplies. Again, your electrician can better define that.


This much you know. A 'whole house' protector must be 50,000 amps because the average direct lightning strike is 20,000 amps. Rarest events why have lightning at 100,000 amps. I have probably never seen a 100,000 amp lightning strike. But a protector rated for that higher current can earth a surge that large without damage. And will be even more conductive for all lesser surges.


If buying the larger protector, then earthing should be upgraded. Again, even the 50,000 amp protector can be massively improved by better earthing. Earth ground is the bottleneck once any of those protectors are installed.


In short, you have long term life expectancy considerations AND a different consideration for each surge. Current determines the life expectancy of the protector. And to a less extent, a higher current makes the protector more conductive. But current is more about life expectancy - how much larger the protector is for all surges.


How effective is the entire system during each surge? That is the function of earth ground. Shorter connection to earth. An expanded earthing network. The best earthing should be installed when the footing are poured - Ufer ground. Or a buried bare copper loop around the building. Of course every incoming wire must connect to the same single point ground. And then that grounding system (especially if buying a larger Eaton device) should be expanded.


Nice is to buy a large current protector to last longer and to be more conductive. That is simple science. But your attention should be focused number one on what provides protection - the earthing system. That is the art of surge protection.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Guinness77* /forum/post/17681945
> 
> 
> My neighbor's house had a surge year or two ago, and he lost some equipment. That is all that I know of, and do not know what the cause was. My office which is about 10 miles away lost a few computers do to a surge (I live in Massachusetts, we get a few storms, but many power outages do to falling tree's, etc..) This is what I was looking at:
> 
> 
> The XT 50/100
> http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcS...ILE&dID=161628
> 
> 
> The XT 40
> http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcS...ILE&dID=305481
> 
> 
> Or The PTX 120/160
> http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcS...ILE&dID=305487
> 
> 
> Which one would you choose, or do you recommend a better option?
> 
> 
> Thanks For Your Help



The XT40 unit is an excellent unit for residential use. You will pay a great deal more for the PTX units. Just remember to have any of these types of units installed with the shortest possible leads to the panel.


----------



## Guinness77

Thanks for the help. I should look into the earthing to see what I have, and too see if it can be improved. Does anybody know of a site or a book that goes into earthing details and testing, and what can be done to upgrade it?

It looks like any one of those units should be good then, I will get pricing on them and see how much more money the larger ones are, and if they are worth it.


Thanks!


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Guinness77* /forum/post/17692864
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help. I should look into the earthing to see what I have, and too see if it can be improved. Does anybody know of a site or a book that goes into earthing details and testing, and what can be done to upgrade it?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Earthing (Grounding) should be simple and straight-forward....but many times it is not.


I use the Soares Book of grounding for NEC reference information.


To summarize, your electrical system grounding should consist of a driven ground rod and water pipe cabled to the ground bus within your main distribution panel. The NEC recommends a ground impedance of 25 Ohms or less....I recommend a ground impedance of 10 Ohms or less (residential). The ground impedance can be measured by use of a fall-of-potential meter (three point test) or by using a ground clamp. I typically use the ground clamp as a confirmation of the three point reading since it can provide erroneous readings if a second path to ground is poor or consists of inadvertent ground connections or large ground conductor currents exist.


The ground connections should be clean and tight.


Within your main panel, you should also see a bond connection from the ground bus to the neutral bus (return leg).


In many instances, the water connection will provide a better/lower ground impedance since it consists of buried copper/iron pipe.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Guinness77* /forum/post/17692864
> 
> 
> I should look into the earthing to see what I have, and too see if it can be improved. Does anybody know of a site or a book that goes into earthing details and testing, and what can be done to upgrade it?



To meet code for human safety, your earth ground must be conductive. That means resistance - ie less than 25 ohms. But for transistor safety, the ground must provide both conductivity and equipotential. These terms are why earthing must exceed what code requires.


Some previous examples of exceeding code included no sharp wire bends, ground wire not inside a metallic conduit, wire separated from all other non-ground wires, and all ground wires run separately until all meet at the single point electrode.


The electrodes also (if using those better protectors) must exceed code requirements. To obtain equipotenial, better earthing means a building looped by a buried ground wire or Ufer grounding. Integrating wire mesh in a concrete basement floor into the single point ground. A radio station engineer demonstrated another example of exceeding what code requires:
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm 


Figure 2 in the application note also shows earthing that exceeds code requirements:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf 


Better is to learn from facilities that are more at risk. For example, a Nebraska radio station:
http://www.copper.org/applications/e.../nebraska.html 


What is required for earthing is defined but will not be obvious in a first reading. Again, how did equipotential and conductivity result in better earthing? Once you can answer that, only then did you grasp the point of that case study. Single point earthing is one factor in achieveing that objective.


For example, in one app note, lightning strikes a distant manhole. That path destroyed telephone equipment inside a nearby building because the earthing was not properly installed.


Ham radio has always been a source of 'how it is done'. For example, QST Magazine in 2002 featured two articles on earthing - especially Part 2 in July 2002. Article entitled "Lightning Protection for the Amateur Radio Station". Again, the solution probably will not be apparent in a first read. But the purpose is equipotential and conductivity.


A utility demonstrates how to kludge a solution when earthing was installed defectively - met code but made surge damage more likely. See their examples of good, bad, and ugly earthing in "Preventing Damage Due to Ground Potential Difference" at:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-b...ech-tip-08.asp 

or http://*******.com/yefm8n9 where ****** is t i n y u r l .


Considered legendary are Polyphaser's application notes. Polyphaser's solutions are highly respected. Notes do not discuss their products. Polyphaser discusses the most important component in any protection system: earth ground. To appreciate this art means reading many app notes to grasp an underlying concept. Earthing is an art:
http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx


----------



## Guinness77

Thanks, that is a lot of info. I will have to check to see what my house has now for grounding (the only thing I remember is bare stranded wire that comes in where the main supply comes in, and is connected to the panel) That wire must come from the attic, and maybe connected to the plumbing which is about 40 feet away (house was built in 68). I will check when I get home.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Guinness77* /forum/post/17695830
> 
> 
> That wire must come from the attic, and maybe connected to the plumbing which is about 40 feet away (house was built in 68).



Grounding AC electric to pipes is no longer sufficient. Ground wire to pipes is to remove stray electricity (faults) from pipes. Even an underground water pipe is insufficient for earth ground.


Whereas pipes must be connected as part of the safety ground system, grounding to pipes as the only earth ground is no longer legal.


National Electrical code 250.53(D)(2):

> Supplemental Electrode Required. A metal underground water pipe shall be supplemented

> by an additional electrode of the a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through 250.52(A)(7).


If your earth ground is the water pipe, code says you must install any other earthing electrode that include ground rods, buried, plates, Ufer ground, etc. The earth ground must be dedicated for earthing electricity. Among the many human safety threats eliminated by a dedicated electrode - the plumber does not get electrocuted by currents he did not know exist. Electricity that a plumber must never need know about.


Earthing must be short for surge protection. But this is about human safety. Earthing electrode must be something installed for electricity.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17696996
> 
> 
> Grounding AC electric to pipes is no longer sufficient. Ground wire to pipes is to remove stray electricity (faults) from pipes. Even an underground water pipe is insufficient for earth ground.
> 
> 
> Whereas pipes must be connected as part of the safety ground system, grounding to pipes as the only earth ground is no longer legal.



The main reason for the supplemental grounding in addition to the water connection is due to the possibility that the continuous metallic water delivery system may be interrupted by a dielectric connection (non-metallic), thereby causing a complete loss of grounding at the water system. This situation is possible during initial construction or later, with repair to the existing water delivery system.


The water system (Copper/Iron piping) is still an excellent grounding system due to its extensive contact with earth and generally low impedance. I would not forsake the connection to the water system for a single driven ground rod... of which the impedance is typically magnitudes higher.


While it is true that 'new' construction requires multiple grounding connections (water, driven ground, building steel if available), pre-existing systems are considered to be 'grand-fathered' since they were built according to previous standards.


A large percentage of commercial and industrial locations from the 1940-1970's remain with only a connection to water for grounding.


----------



## whatever86

I use to work for a large telco and confirm about the grounding stuff. They also design and build in good surge protection into their product because grounding rod effectiveness depend abit on the weather(environment) and the surge travel so fast(nS speed) that they know that their product will be hit just a small amount surge. So a good grounding rod with total house surge protection and appliance with build in surge production is the way to go. Only 1/4 consumer product in North America and where as 50% of product enter European country are tested properly though third party lab.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/17699795
> 
> 
> The main reason for the supplemental grounding in addition to the water connection is due to the possibility that the continuous metallic water delivery system may be interrupted by a dielectric connection (non-metallic), thereby causing a complete loss of grounding at the water system. This situation is possible during initial construction or later, with repair to the existing water delivery system.



Many reasons explain why water system ground is no longer a good earth ground. If a water pipe was so good, then it could be the only earth ground. Bottom line - a water pipe is bonded (grounded, connected) for human safety reasons. Something else must be the earth ground for human and transistor safety. No matter how good a water pipe ground is, something else must be installed to provide sufficient earth ground. The only listed ground electrode insufficient for earthing is the water pipe. Any other earthing electrode is sufficient.


For surge protection: a water pipe wired 40 feet away from a breaker box is not an effective earth ground. It will perform human safety functions such as removing fault currents from pipes. But is too long to perform as the always necessary earth ground for surge protection.


All grounding must be installed also to protect a plumber. A plumber must disconnect any pipe anywhere and not fear electric shock. Even the water meter and water heater must have ground wires so that when a meter or heater is removed, the plumber does not even know current is flowing through any pipe. But again, this is about human safety; not about transistor safety.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17701807
> 
> 
> Many reasons explain why water system ground is no longer a good earth ground. If a water pipe was so good, then it could be the only earth ground. Bottom line - a water pipe is bonded (grounded, connected) for human safety reasons. Something else must be the earth ground for human and transistor safety. No matter how good a water pipe ground is, something else must be installed to provide sufficient earth ground. The only listed ground electrode insufficient for earthing is the water pipe. Any other earthing electrode is sufficient.



We have learned through experience that using only one grounding path is insufficient due to the possibility of losing one path or due to impedance changes of any one path during seasons. The water pipe is not bonded for personal safety! The safety jumper across the meter ( or any dielectric junction in the water system including a water heater) is there for personal safety.


According to NEC 250.53(D)(2) Where a water pipe exists as the only grounding electrode....it must be supplemented by another grounding electrode such as a driven rod or ufer system. The main reason given for this requirement is the possibility of changes to the water system. No other reason for this requirement are provided.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17701807
> 
> 
> For surge protection: a water pipe wired 40 feet away from a breaker box is not an effective earth ground. It will perform human safety functions such as removing fault currents from pipes. But is too long to perform as the always necessary earth ground for surge protection.



Why?

In most instances (commercial and industrial and some residential) the water connection is much further away than 40 feet! This has little bearing on the capability of the ground system. The grounding conductors are generally large enough gauge as to provide a very low impedance path to ground. The impedance of the mechanical connections used and the actual ground rod impedance will swamp any impedance from the cabling.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17701807
> 
> 
> All grounding must be installed also to protect a plumber. A plumber must disconnect any pipe anywhere and not fear electric shock. Even the water meter and water heater must have ground wires so that when a meter or heater is removed, the plumber does not even know current is flowing through any pipe. But again, this is about human safety; not about transistor safety.



'The primary purpose of the ground system is to maintain the electrical equipment at earth potential where the grounding electrodes are located.' According to NEC and Soares book of grounding.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/17702549
> 
> 
> Why?
> 
> In most instances (commercial and industrial and some residential) the water connection is much further away than 40 feet! This has little bearing on the capability of the ground system.



Your post only discusses human safety. NEC only defines ground for human safety. Code says nothing about transistor safety or other earthing functions.


Code says an earth ground must be less than 20 feet. That is also for human safety. For surge protection, a ground wire must be even shorter. Other characteristics not defined by code include separated from non-grounding wires, not inside metallic conduit, and no sharp bends. Requirements that are defined by the NEC. Characteristics essential to surge protection.


Supplemental because the only earth ground that, by itself, is insufficient: water pipe ground. All other electrodes by themselves provide sufficient earthing. A water pipe ground is insufficient for a long list of reasons. Some posted previously.


Bottom line. For surge protection, earthing must be even better. Everything must be connected directly to the earth ground that is 'less than 10 feet' from every incoming utility wire.


Why 'less than 10 feet'? One reason is wire impedance. Electricians only trained in the code don't understand impedance. For example, an electrician would understand wire thickness; would not understand why wire length is so critical. Those who also deal in surge protection (ie ham radio operators, munitions dumps, rocket launch facilities, etc) understand why the code and that 40+ foot distant water pipe are insufficient earthing.


The only legal earth electrode that must always be supplemented because it is insufficient even for human safety: water pipe. For surge protection, every incoming utility wire must connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to the same (single point) earth ground. All ground wire separate until they meet at that electrode. These requirements not defined by the NEC are important for surge protection.


Wire impedance (not resistance) is a first reason why that 40 foot distant ground is insufficient. Appreciate little that an electrician would know compared to many other functions that earthing must perform.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17703601
> 
> 
> Code says an earth ground must be less than 20 feet. That is also for human safety. For surge protection, a ground wire must be even shorter.



Please Tell me where to find this? And most of the other code language you are indicating above.


----------



## Speedskater

Come-on guys, one is talking NEC Code minimums and the other is talking best engineering design practices.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Speedskater* /forum/post/17709029
> 
> 
> Come-on guys, one is talking NEC Code minimums and the other is talking best engineering design practices.



The topic is earthing to meet and exceed NEC code requirements. To earth so that surge damage is averted. Posted was how it was done even 100 years ago so that surges do not cause damage. And how any layman can accomplish same today.


To obtain effective protection, the practical solution has always been a protector connected as short as practical to the earthing electrode. That means meeting and exceeding post 1990 NEC requirements. That means every protector connects directly to an earth electrode that creates single point earth ground. That is something most any homeowner can implement.


Either energy is connected 'low impedance' to earth. Or energy hunts for earth destructively inside the building. A solution that is standard in any location that must never suffer surge damage such as cell phone towers, satellite data facilities, telephone switching centers, or central FL homes - single point earthing. Even a satellite dish cable makes a short connection to earth before entering the building.


A protector was only as effective as its connection to earth. Water pipe is insufficient for numerous reasons. Worse, many homes do not have earthing even to meet code. In that case, upgrading to obtain transistor safety would also provide human safety. Upgrade to both meet code as well as exceed those requirements. Only a homeowner is responsible for accomplishing this. Most of that work is performed using parts sold in Lowes or Home Depot - because that little skill is required. Or one hires an agent (ie electrician) to install what has been standard practice even 100 years ago.


Key to all this is the quality of and connection to the only thing necessary for surge protection - single point earth ground.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Speedskater* /forum/post/17709029
> 
> 
> Come-on guys, one is talking NEC Code minimums and the other is talking best engineering design practices.



I test ground systems along with suppression and overcurrent systems. I wish to know where Westom is getting the 'code' language from that he keeps repeating. I applaud anyone or any organization trying to improve upon the minimum requirements for protection, but when someone is spouting 'code' which I am not familiar with, I just have to find the answer.


BTW, when testing electrical protective systems, the system must meet minimum requirements of code unless noted, that is why I am interested in the minimum.


----------



## Guinness77

Well,

I confirmed that I have just the one ground connected to the incoming water pipe. I would probably like to add another ground close to the panel (two 8ft foot rods driven into the ground 6 ft apart). Unless there would be a better option.

Oh, and I have another question. Is it recommended to put a protector on the incoming cable line? And if so what product would you recommend? When Verizon Fios becomes available is that a better option since they use fiber to the house instead of RG6?


Thanks Again


----------



## Speedskater

I don't think that (for the most part) that westom is talking NEC code. He's writing about places that want more protection than code, like communication tower and broadcast transmitter buildings. It's not code required but it is best practice.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Guinness77* /forum/post/17717848
> 
> 
> Well,
> 
> I confirmed that I have just the one ground connected to the incoming water pipe. I would probably like to add another ground close to the panel (two 8ft foot rods driven into the ground 6 ft apart). Unless there would be a better option.
> 
> Oh, and I have another question. Is it recommended to put a protector on the incoming cable line? And if so what product would you recommend? When Verizon Fios becomes available is that a better option since they use fiber to the house instead of RG6?
> 
> 
> Thanks Again



Guinness,


I would certainly recommend installation of additional driven rods to 'supplement' the grounding provided by the water connection. Generally speaking, you are required to install one rod as long as it meets the minimum resistance recommendation. In many circumstances a second rod may not provide improved ground impedance results. Soil resistivity, moisture, change in soil per depth and other factors greatly influence the need for additional driven rods.


I always recommend protection of phone and cable lines entering the facility. You can find them at the Innovative Technology (EATON) web site as well as others listed in some of the suppression threads here.


A fiber connection will not allow electrical anomalies to enter your house.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Speedskater* /forum/post/17720535
> 
> 
> I don't think that (for the most part) that westom is talking NEC code. He's writing about places that want more protection than code, like communication tower and broadcast transmitter buildings. It's not code required but it is best practice.



Then he should not state the information as:

*Code* says an earth ground must be less than 20 feet. That is also for human safety. For surge protection, a ground wire must be even shorter. Other characteristics not defined by code include separated from non-grounding wires, not inside metallic conduit, and no sharp bends. Requirements that are defined by the NEC. Characteristics essential to surge protection.


The only legal earth electrode that must always be supplemented because it is insufficient even for human safety: water pipe. For surge protection, every incoming utility wire must connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to the same (single point) earth ground. All ground wire separate until they meet at that electrode. These requirements not defined by the NEC are important for surge protection.


----------



## Colm

IIRC there is a requirement in recent versions of the NEC that says the ground wire from the point when things like antenna cables enter a building to the service entrance must be 20' or less, and if not, a second ground rod needs to be installed and properly bonded to the first one. I don't recall anything about the length of the equipment grounding conductor from the service entrance to the ground rod. But it may have changed, too. In any case, the shorter the better as I am sure we all agree.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Guinness77* /forum/post/17717848
> 
> 
> I confirmed that I have just the one ground connected to the incoming water pipe. I would probably like to add another ground close to the panel (two 8ft foot rods driven into the ground 6 ft apart). Unless there would be a better option.
> 
> Oh, and I have another question. Is it recommended to put a protector on the incoming cable line?



Those ground rods would be minimally sufficient as well as necessary.


Cable companies recommend no protectors on their cable. Protectors degrade signals. Better protection is provided by connecting the cable's ground block directly to earth. IOW the cable must drop down close to those electrodes before rising back up to enter the building.


If your environment is particularly harsh, you might consider protectors that are not signal harmful. But those tend to be expensive. See examples from Polyphaser. You are not installing protection anywhere near to what is required in cell phone towers, et al. More that sufficient protection is often provided by a $2 ground block connected short to earth.


BTW, even FIOS has a metallic sheath that also should be earthed.


----------



## Guinness77

Thanks everyone for the help.


Westom,

Do you have a suggestion on something better than the two ground rods that I would be able to implement? Also, I believe the water table is about 5 -6 feet down in the location I would put the rods. Would that pose a problem?


Thanks


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Guinness77* /forum/post/17725542
> 
> 
> Do you have a suggestion on something better than the two ground rods that I would be able to implement?



To make better recommendations requires knowledge of geology, a decade history including neighbor's experiences, how utilities and underground pipelines are routed, etc. In one location, proper earthing was subverted by a vein of graphite on that building's far side. Surge took paths through household appliances to connect to that more conductive geology. In that case, a solution was to encircle the building with a bare copper wire loop.


For most everyone, two ground rods with a ground wire routed as short and straight as possible would provide significant improvement. Better is to have those rods in always moist earth - which is also why the bottom of that electrode does so much more and why a four foot ground rod does so little.


Better is to install earthing electrodes interconnected by bare copper wire between those rods buried at least 18". The rods are driven below the surface. A 6 inch PCV pipe and pipe cap creates the equivalent of a manhole so that wire bonding to rod can be inspected and so that the connection is not exposed to trip humans or harm a lawnmower.


Experience is better than anything I can say from here. Direct lightning strikes should result in no damage. If damage does occur, then your earthing system is where the investigation begins; may need upgrading. No way to test a protection system (unfortunately). First test comes from experience - from the first lightning strike.


For example, a FL home suffered repeated lightning strikes to a bathroom wall. They had lightnig rods installed and connected to eigh foot ground rods. Lighting struck the bathroom again. Why? Bathroom pipes connected underground to more conductive limestone. Lightning rods were only earthed in sand. Where did the investigation start? First thing - what made the better connection to earth. Bypassed lightning rods to obtain a better connection to earth via bathroom pipes. Welcome to the art where magic does not exist and science does not always have enough information.


Neighborhood experience may also recommend lightning rods. Again, local history is a best indicator of what is sufficient.


Two ground rods connected short to all utilities is a minimum for any building. As you have demonstrated, many buildings do not even have earthing for post 1990 human safety requirements - let alone something better for transistor safety. You need at least one ground rod just for human safety.


----------



## whatever86

Instead of waiting for the first lightning to hit your house and test the grounding rod. You can build a grounding pit(earth pit) base on your location. Grounding pit offer year round effectiveness earth grounding. You might need to add water before winter came.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whatever86* /forum/post/17730329
> 
> 
> You can build a grounding pit(earth pit) base on your location. Grounding pit offer year round effectiveness earth grounding.



That pit is also called a landfill. A perfect location for storing used lightning bolts.


----------



## agmar

First off a very Happy New Year to you all!!


I must say my respect for AVS Forums is going north everyday, this thread is a perfect example!!


!!bump!!, but can any of you guys kindly tell me your opinion about this device:

ETHEREAL Esp-1010

I found a good deal here(pretty much gives you an idea of my budget!):

h t t p:// w w w .accessories4less . c o m/make-a-store/item/ETHESP1010/ETHEREAL/Esp-1010-10-Outlet-Surge-Protector-With-Digital-Voltage-Display/1.html


My setup is regular Home Theater components, i.e.,

-HDTV

-Receiver

-BD player

-Subwoofer

-Cable + wifi router


I live in a rental apartment so whole house protection is not feasible.

Would appreciate your suggestions/recco.


Thanks...


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *agmar* /forum/post/17838060
> 
> 
> I live in a rental apartment so whole house protection is not feasible.



Any landlord should be happy to have you donate a 'whole house' protector that would protect all his appliances. Landlord only need install it.


Second, AC utility can sell or lease a 'whole house' protector that they install behind your electric meter.


Third - the kludge. The principles remain same. A protector as close to earth as possible. And distance between protector and electronics increased. For example, buy a protector of maximum joules. But off its six foot power cord as short as possible. Locate the wall receptacle closest (by wire length) to the breaker box. Therefore as close to earth as possible. That becomes the best (shortest) earthing connection.


Now locate the wall receptacle farthest (by wire length) from the breaker box. That increases distance between the protector and electronics. The kludge solution connects a protector as short as practical to earth. And increase separation between protector and electronics.


Two effective solutions and a kludge solution provided. Each is about where energy must be harmlessly dissipated.


----------



## agmar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17838103
> 
> 
> Third - the kludge. The principles remain same. A protector as close to earth as possible. And distance between protector and electronics increased. For example, buy a protector of maximum joules. But off its six foot power cord as short as possible. Locate the wall receptacle closest (by wire length) to the breaker box. Therefore as close to earth as possible. That becomes the best (shortest) earthing connection.



Thanks, that def was layman friendly







, i think I'll stick with the kludge solution ...

So I take it tht you don't think this particular model has anything that others lack and tht they are all more or less similar at this price range!


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *agmar* /forum/post/17838969
> 
> 
> So I take it tht you don't think this particular model has anything that others lack and tht they are all more or less similar at this price range!



A Monster Cable protector at $150 is the same protector circuit selling for $7 in grocery stores. Monster Cable has a long history of identifying scam markets. Then selling products in that market for even higher profits. Another reason why a kludge solution requires so much more work.


A scam solution is more dangerous as well as significantly reduced (if any) protection. Irresponsible is to jump at a kludge solution only because you understand the executive summary - did not understand the previous text written at a layman's level.


Apartment fires have been created by plug-in protectors. Examples that most every fire department has seen. Reasons from a fire marshal are why plug-in protectors are a threat. Cutting its power cord short at least makes an ineffective solution at least a little less ineffective. Far simpler is to have your landlord install a 'whole house' protector that costs many times less than the Monster Cable protector. Or have the electric company install their superior solution - does not require the landlord's permission.


A kludge solution is only when those others solutions are, without doubt, impossible. Only valid after first attempting those responsible solutions. View the scary pictures to appreciate another reason why the kludge solution is so undesirable - just one step above nothing:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554 
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm 
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html 
http://*******.com/3x73ol 
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/ 
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/les...tectorfire.htm 
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339


----------



## agmar

Thanks for the rebuke and the useful URLs







.

I'll def check with my power company, but in the meanwhile I did go ahead and order a device that is UL certified and follows the guidelines as outlined in one of the URLs mentioned in your comment above ...

With all due respect to your evident expertise on the matter as well as the thoughtfully detailed responses, I don't think it is that bad a thing to even consider surge protectors.

There is, like you pointed out, some risk involved with using these devices (aka kludge solutions), which probably can be controlled to some extent using the guidelines provided on the following page
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/programs..._unit_info.htm


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *agmar* /forum/post/17843805
> 
> 
> Thanks for the rebuke and the useful URLs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I'll def check with my power company, but in the meanwhile I did go ahead and order a device that is UL certified and follows the guidelines as outlined in one of the URLs mentioned in your comment above ...



A protector can fail during UL testing and still be UL listed. UL says nothing about protection. Only that no sparks and flames appear during their test waveforms. Protectors in those scary pictures were UL listed - which only means fire is less likely.


Appreciate the 'mistake' made in your citation. If the protector fails - thermal fuse trips to avoid a house fire - then protector abandon the appliance. The appliance had to protect itself. A common problem with power strip protectors. A surge too tiny to overwhelm protection in any appliance can easily destroy the ineffective power strip protector. Fortunately, all appliances already contain significant protection.


Second, MOV manufacturers state that any condition (necessary to blow that fuse) must never exist. That catastrophic failure is a complete violation of MOV manufacturer specs. But that catastrophic failure is too often seen in power strip protectors. By undersizing a protector (violating what MOV manufacturers state), then failure gets the naive to recommend more such protectors.


Third, once the light reports MOVs disconnected, now you have a perfectly safe ($4) power strip. MOVs are no longer connected to create a (potential) house fire.


Fourth, how does a 200 or 600 joule protector absorb typically destructive surges (hundreds of thousands of joules)? It does not. Surges that small typically do not overwhelm protection already inside all appliances. Protector that small can be damaged by a surge that would not overwhelm protection inside all appliances.


Fifth, that protector must be located away from flammable materials. A fact I neglected to mention previously. Away from dust balls, rugs, and desktop papers.


One final note. See that reference to response time? More nonsense. All protectors respond in nanoseconds. For example, MOVs respond so quickly that the length of its wire lead (typically 3 inches) can significantly change the MOVs response time. View manufacturer data sheets. Response time testing even discuss how long the leads are because even that wire can change a protectors response time. If response time is that close to near zero, then why do many discuss it? Popular myths are promoted without first reading manufacturer data sheets.


Notice which source is citing datasheets that only designers read. That alone indentifies which source has better credibility. Identifies who learned this stuff by designing it - and having his designs 'tested' by direct lightning strikes.


The kludge solution is not recommended. It is only a poor option.


----------



## t5volvov70

What are your opinions on this Panamax product?

http://www.panamax.com/Products/In-W....aspx#tab_spec 


I'm not ready to install a whole house system. However, I'm looking for surge protection behind my new Pioneer plasma wall mount installation. In my case I already have a standard wall outlet, but need something slim or that will replace the standard outlet.


As always, your opinions are always appreciated. If there is another wall option product that will fit behind the TV what would you recommend.


Note: When lit, there's an LED indicates there is an overvoltage condition with the power to the MIW Power-Pro PFP. I'm wondering how well this will work. I won't even be able to see the light since it's mounted behind the TV


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *t5volvov70* /forum/post/17888362
> 
> 
> What are your opinions on this Panamax product?



Located adjacent to the TV, it must absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules. View its numbers. 546 joules means it uses only 183 joules and never more than 360 joules ... to absorb how much energy?


Your telco never wastes money on that protector for same reasons. Your telco knows no 'magic box' provides protection. You have few choices. So that protection inside that plasma TV is not overwhelmed, you must earth that energy BEFORE it enters the building. Energy at that protector may even obtain earth destructively via the TV.


Too often, eyes glaze over when the numbers arrive. Did you view those numbers - ie 546 joules? Where does that protector claim protection for each type of surge in its numeric specs? View these numbers yourself. It makes no such protection claims. Anything that protects that plasma TV is already inside the TV. Protection that also requires an earthed 'whole house' protector.


What does the LED report? Protectors (MOVs) fail by degrading. No light can report the acceptable failure mode. But when a protector is grossly undersized, a protector must completely disconnect from the surge to avoid a house fire - leaving the surge to confront the TV. That light can only report a protector so grossly undersized as to fail in an unacceptable manner. Where to learn this? MOV manufacturer datasheets and application (design) notes. Or, simply ask what happens when 546 joules tries to absorb surges that are less than hundreds of thousands of joules.


Without a 'whole house' protector, then the solution is difficult. See that furnace, dishwasher, and smoke detector? If your TV needs protection, then so do all those other appliances. What protects them? Same thing that provides effective TV protection. Either you do the easy thing (one 'whole house' protector), or buy a protector that must somehow absorb how much energy? No way around reality. The protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That wall protector, instead, must somehow magically make surge energy disappear.


----------



## t5volvov70

Weston - wow! Is sounds like we are preparing for the final voltage spike/surge

















I fully understand your logic, but I'm just looking for something that can help minimize something small. We don't have very many lightning strikes out in the NW. When I get some time and I'll investigate the whole house system. As mentioned in my original post I'm not looking to install a house system at this time. Mostly looking for something that will fit behind by TV and hopefully minimize any problems that could come about from higher than normal activity on the line.


Cheers!


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *t5volvov70* /forum/post/17889839
> 
> 
> I fully understand your logic, but I'm just looking for something that can help minimize something small.



1) Anything that protector might protect from is made irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance. How often every week did you troop to hardware stores replacing clock radios, dimmer switches, door bells, and bathroom GFCIs. Even the tiny dimmer switch contains protection that makes most every transient irrelevant.


By installing only one 'whole house' protector, all lesser transients are also made further irrelevant. Cost of one 'whole house' protector is about $1 per protected appliance - to protect from all types of surges. What protects when a 4,000 volt primary wire falls and shorts to your incoming wires?


Anything that 546 joule protector might do is already inside the TV.


Appreciate the reality. View the output of a 120 volt UPS when in battery backup mode. Two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves? Electricity considered so 'dirty' as to be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. And also ideal power to computers and other electronics. Electronics are so robust - already contain significant protection so that UPSes may even output 'dirty' power.


2) Which should you worry about? Protection for that big screen TV should also protect other critical appliances. Bathroom GFCIs can fail - provide no human safety protection in the bathroom - if you do not protect them. What appliance is most critical during a surge? Smoke detectors. What protects them? Same protection also protects a big screen TV. Why install a protector that does nothing for potentially destructive surges? That 546 joule protector does not even make protection claims in its numeric specs.


A 'whole house' protector is the standard and effective solution to other potentially destructive surges - ie 4,000 volts incoming on your AC electric wires. Show me where that 546 joule device claims such protection?


3) Worse, a protector too close to appliances and too far from earth ground can (and we engineers even traced such damage) even earth a surge destructively through the adjacent TV. And 4), to not be a fire risk, that 546 joule protector needs protection only provided by one 'whole house' protector.


Surge protection is always about where energy dissipates. IOW the protector (from typically destructive surges) is only as effective as its earth ground. What does the 546 joule protector not have and not discuss? Earthing.


Why do telcos not use adjacent protectors? Why do they want protectors up to 50 meters distant from electronics? That separation increases protection.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17889972
> 
> 
> 1) Anything that protector might protect from is made irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance. How often every week did you troop to hardware stores replacing clock radios, dimmer switches, door bells, and bathroom GFCIs. Even the tiny dimmer switch contains protection that makes most every transient irrelevant.



Most appliances and electronics contain one or two MOVs for limited suppression capability. I have heard that this is to maintain the device through the warranty period. The MOV devices are nothing special and provide very little protection from any significant transient event.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/17896645
> 
> 
> Most appliances and electronics contain one or two MOVs for limited suppression capability.



Nobody said anything about MOVs or equivalent devices inside any appliances.


Apple once put MOVs inside the Apple II. No longer. MOVs adjacent to electronics are ineffective. Too close to electronics. Too far from earth ground. In some cases, even contributed to electronics damage.


All appliances contain significant protection in the design. An international standard in 1970 required 600 volts without damage. Today that number is thousands of volts. Protection that can be overwhelmed by a rare transient. Protection what requires MOVs located at the service entrance. Protection that is inherent in how power supplies are designed and how supplies operate. Protection not provided by MOVs inside an appliance.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17896734
> 
> 
> Nobody said anything about MOVs or equivalent devices inside any appliances.
> 
> 
> Apple once put MOVs inside the Apple II. No longer. MOVs adjacent to electronics are ineffective. Too close to electronics. Too far from earth ground. In some cases, even contributed to electronics damage.
> 
> 
> All appliances contain significant protection in the design. An international standard in 1970 required 600 volts without damage. Today that number is thousands of volts. Protection that can be overwhelmed by a rare transient. Protection what requires MOVs located at the service entrance. Protection that is inherent in how power supplies are designed and how supplies operate. Protection not provided by MOVs inside an appliance.



Open up some modern appliances and learn!


Your diatribes do not help those folks trying to obtain helpful information.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17889972
> 
> 
> Even the tiny dimmer switch contains protection that makes most every transient irrelevant.



Interestingly enough, the two things that fail less often in my house since installing a whole-house surge protective device are incandescent lamps and triac-based dimmers. Both of them are inherently safe against surges less than about 1500V according to the old NBS research I read.


FWIW I have never had a failure of a more complex device that I could attribute to a surge, before or after installing a surge protective device, which testifies to the inherent immunity of common electric and electronic devices to typical surges. But I live in a location where lighting is not a significant threat more than a couple of times a year. Almost all of the transients I experience are power utility switching transients, etc.


----------



## t5volvov70

Westom - So your recommendation would be to install nothing if I'm not ready to install a house system?


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *t5volvov70* /forum/post/17897351
> 
> 
> Westom - So your recommendation would be to install nothing if I'm not ready to install a house system?



Are you trooping to the hardware store weekly to replace dimmer switches, etc. Your concern is transients that occur maybe once every seven years. A number that varies significantly even in the same town. A numbers better obtained from neighborhood history over the past decade. Maybe you have plenty of time.


Meanwhile, you may want to address only part of the 'system' because earthing also is critical to human safety. Something like two out of ten older homes are missing that ground - for human safety. Only way to verify that ground is inspection. Adding a 'whole house' protector may be installed later. Inspecting and fixing grounds should be done sooner.


Are you a gambler?


----------



## Trey9128

I've thought about the lightning issue quite a bit, as I've had at least two serious lightning strikes in the last 10 years, with quite a bit of equipment damage.


In the first instance, lightning struck the ground and a small tree on the side of the house opposite the electrical service. The energy went through our invisible fence system and the sprinkler system and there was black discoloration on some of the outlets on that side of the house. Talking to experts at the time, it was apparent that the damage was caused by a retrograde surge of electricity, and a whole house protector would have been useless.


The second time we had damage, most of the energy seemed to enter the house through the cable TV system, and our neighbors also had damage to everything hooked up to the cable system. Again, I think a whole house system would have provided no real protection.


So while I certainly wouldn't argue against a whole house system, I think protecting expensive electronics with a proximate protection device (for both power and other low voltage connections that might transmit energy from outside the house) makes sense.


It's my understanding that


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trey9128* /forum/post/17927960
> 
> 
> So while I certainly wouldn't argue against a whole house system, I think protecting expensive electronics with a proximate protection device (for both power and other low voltage connections that might transmit energy from outside the house) makes sense.



So, when the energy is at the appliance, where does that protector put the energy? An IEEE brochure shows what we also saw. That energy can be earthed destructively via an adjacent appliance.


Your post only makes sense when assuming a protector is protection. It is not. The protector only gives a surge more paths. Where is the best path to earth? Often via some nearby appliance.


Let's assume energy entered on the cable as you posted. Why was that cable not properly earthed? Why would that current on an earthed cable seek earthing ground destructively inside the building? It wouldn't.


Having said that, if your earthing is defective (multiple ground points), then Duke Energy recommends a solution:
http://*******.com/yefm8n9 or
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-b...ech-tip-08.asp 


Why does your telco use 'whole house' protectors? Not put protectors next to the appliance? To increase protection, telcos want protectors up to 50 meters separated from electronics. Why? Wire impedance explains why that separation increases protection. And why a protector close to earth and distant from electronics dumps energy into earth; not into some household appliance.


If it was not clear. Every wire inside every cable (overhead and underground) must connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to that single point earth ground. Every wire connected either directly (cable TV) or via a protector (AC electric, telephone). Any wire not properly earthed (ie to that invisible fence) may violate the entire protection system.


t5volvov70 - I cannot emphasis enough the only thing that provides protection. The one thing you must upgrade (in most cases) is the only thing that provides protection - single point earth ground. Details posted above.


That applies to your protection - the secondary protection system. Same applies to the primary protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html 


As posted above, earthing is the important solution. Any protector without earthing (ie plug-in) simply cannot provide that protection.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trey9128* /forum/post/17927960
> 
> 
> Again, I think a whole house system would have provided no real protection.



A whole-house system includes protection of every path a surge can take into a house, not just your AC service. And that is just what westom has been crusading about in these forums. The paths that caused your damage are common sources of damage.


----------



## Trey9128




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17928802
> 
> 
> A whole-house system includes protection of every path a surge can take into a house, not just your AC service. And that is just what westom has been crusading about in these forums. The paths that caused your damage are common sources of damage.



OK. So if I understand you correctly, a whole house suppressor system would isolate EVERY wired connection entering the house, not just the electrical main service? That would be great, but most of the time I just see people referring to protection at the electric main, which would not protect against these retrograde surges (which are pretty common it seems to me).


----------



## Colm

Yes, you understand correctly. Some of the protection can be quite simple, like grounding blocks on coaxial cables, with a short path to ground. The most overlooked paths appear to be things like sprinkler system wiring and antenna rotator wiring.


----------



## Trey9128




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17938867
> 
> 
> Yes, you understand correctly. Some of the protection can be quite simple, like grounding blocks on coaxial cables, with a short path to ground. The most overlooked paths appear to be things like sprinkler system wiring and antenna rotator wiring.



Thanks for your response. I'm guessing that an all encompassing system could get very expensive.


----------



## Colm

It really isn't that expensive...


----------



## Speedskater

We now have two different whole house surge suppressors in the conversation.


"Whole House System" - One or probably more units that protect all wires as they enter the home.


"Whole House AC Power Device" - A unit that mounts in or on the main breaker box. That only protects the AC power line as it enters the home.


I think that the AC Power Line Device is the more common usage.


----------



## Colm

Call them what you like. You still need to protect all the paths a surge can take. There are whole-house "devices" that incorporate protection for several paths, typically AC, cable, and telephone. In any case, you need to take a "systems" approach to protection.


----------



## Speedskater




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17940663
> 
> 
> Call them what you like. You still need to protect all the paths a surge can take. There are whole-house "devices" that incorporate protection for several paths, typically AC, cable, and telephone. In any case, you need to take a "systems" approach to protection.



I agree that a system is very good. But most whole-house "devices" are for AC Power Line only.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Speedskater* /forum/post/17940822
> 
> 
> I agree that a system is very good. But most whole-house "devices" are for AC Power Line only.



Everyone's phone line already has a 'whole house' protector installed for free. These protectors existed longer than anyone here even existed.


Other incoming wires (cable TV, satellite dish) do not need a protector to connect to earth. That connection is better made by a wire. Cable companies are (now) very good about making that connection. Satellite dish installers are embarrassingly bad. Often do not do what is required even by safety codes.


The most common source of surges is AC mains. Most telephone appliances are damaged by AC mains surges that seek earth ground, destructively via telephone devices. Why? Because one good path (destructively) to earth is via the telephone 'whole house' protector - that every subscriber already has.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trey9128* /forum/post/17939254
> 
> 
> Thanks for your response. I'm guessing that an all encompassing system could get very expensive.



The protector can be purchased in Lowes for less than $50.


Whole House AC Power Device never provides any protection. That 'device' is a protector. No protector provides protection. Effective protectors connect short to protection. That is earth. Ineffective protectors have no short connection to earth AND avoid the entire topic. Profits are more important.


Either you have a 'system' - the protector connected to protection - or you have no protection.


The NIST:

> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work

> by diverting the surges to ground

That is the 'whole house' protector with the always essential 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth. Where does the NIST say any protector is protection? They do not. The protector only diverts (shunts, connects, conducts, bonds) that energy to earth or does nothing useful.


> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is

> not done properly.

That is any protector without the always required connection to earth - ie plug-in devices. No protector, by itself, does any protection.


Some surge protection 'systems' have no 'whole house' protector. But every protection 'system' always has one item: single point earth ground. That ground defines the entire protection layer - the entire protection 'system'.


A superior solution typically costs the least: about $1 per protected appliance.


----------



## Raymond42262




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17941189
> 
> 
> Everyone's phone line already has a 'whole house' protector installed for free. These protectors existed longer than anyone here even existed.
> 
> 
> Other incoming wires (cable TV, satellite dish) do not need a protector to connect to earth. That connection is better made by a wire. Cable companies are (now) very good about making that connection. *Satellite dish installers are embarrassingly bad. Often do not do what is required even by safety codes.*
> 
> 
> The most common source of surges is AC mains. Most telephone appliances are damaged by AC mains surges that seek earth ground, destructively via telephone devices. Why? Because one good path (destructively) to earth is via the telephone 'whole house' protector - that every subscriber already has.



What should I look for to ensure that my satellite dish is grounded properly ?


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Raymond42262* /forum/post/17947136
> 
> 
> What should I look for to ensure that my satellite dish is grounded properly ?



Minimally sufficient earthing means a coaxial cable is connected 'less than 3 meters' to the same ground used by all other protectors. The single point earth ground. A hardwire that is short, no sharp bends, separated from other non-grounding wires, not inside metallic conduit (or other metal material), and that meets all other grounds at the earthing electrode.


No protector is necessary. Earthing that shielded cable means surge energy need not enter the building. See GRB-1 and GRB-2 for examples of a ground block:
http://www.qintar.com/html/tv/f-con.htm 


Of course, a satellite dish itself also must be earthed. From the dish must be a wire to earth. Code requires that ground also be interconnected to the single point ground. Best done by connecting that other ground rod to the single point ground via a buried bare copper wire. Therefore the wire from dish to earth can be as short as possible. However, many do not bother with that buried interconnection. More important is to have that dish earthed directly and as short as practical.


Earthing the dish does not negate a need for the cable earthing to single point earth ground.


Many installers don't do this. Since they would have to spend $10 for the ground rod out of their pocket. Others commit outright violations - ie ground to a water faucet. Or completely ignore any earthing since that would mean routing the cable longer to single point ground before entering the building.


Many disk installers today earth just as defectively as cable companies did before cable companies had to install proper equipment (ie RG-6 wire, only exterior grade wire outside, etc). Before Time Warner, Comcast, et al had engineers define requirements, cable companies only cost controlled installations including no earthing or cable wire connected to a water pipe.


----------



## Joe Piz

Well, there has been a lot of information, most, if not all, well over my head so I could not guess what is accurate and what is not.

If I can, I would like to ask a few questions, or make a few statements, and hope for "general consensus" responses to draw my conclusions from.


Am I understanding the following correctly from what I have read here;

1) power strip surge suppresors offer no benefit.

2) most electronics and appliances can handle what is typically coming through our power lines as far as +/- variances in voltage.

3) Having a fairly "modern" house, built in the last 10 years, the electrical system is quite likely grounded to earth.


I know these subjects have been debated here, thought I might plea for short general consensus type answers.

thanks in advance


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joe Piz* /forum/post/17965946
> 
> 
> Am I understanding the following correctly from what I have read here;
> 
> 1) power strip surge suppresors offer no benefit.
> 
> 2) most electronics and appliances can handle what is typically coming through our power lines as far as +/- variances in voltage.
> 
> 3) Having a fairly "modern" house, built in the last 10 years, the electrical system is quite likely grounded to earth.



1) Power strip suppressors have their place. If you have properly applied whole house protection with adequate grounding, a second level of protection can benefit equipment downstream. Any let through voltage from the whole house system can be further mitigated by downstream units.

2) The daily voltage variances are typically small (


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joe Piz* /forum/post/17965946
> 
> 
> 3) Having a fairly "modern" house, built in the last 10 years, the electrical system is quite likely grounded to earth.



When stuff is so new, my experience as a design engineer - you don't get it until after the second or third reread. When stuff is completely new, more like four or five rereads.


Grounding inside the house is completely irrelevant. That misconception immediately starts confusion. The only relevant ground is earth ground. Protectors never provide protection. Yes. Stated again because so many cannot divorce themselves from the concept. No protector is protection.


A protector connects surge energy short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth. Or it does nothing effective. The effective protector is a connecting device. Therefore every protection 'layer' is defined by the only 'layer' component that provides protection - earth ground.


What defines each layer of protection? Each earth ground. Homes cannot have layered protection because homes only have one single point earth ground. That means the entire home is only one layer of protection.


What does a protector inside the building do? Earths via household 'safety ground' wires? Of course not for so many reasons. 1) that would induce surges on other wires - more potential damage. The ground wire must be separate. 2) Wire impedance means a power strip cannot even earth a trivial 100 amp surge. The resulting 12,000 volts makes it obvious why power strip protectors even earth surges destructively through appliances in the same room.


Every protection layer is defined by the only component that must always exist. Only place that energy gets harmlessly dissipated. Single point earth ground. It is that simple. Ignore everything else until you get that point. No earth ground means no protection. Earth ground is not that prong in a wall receptacle. Earth ground means the protector connects short to it - or is not effective.


Why would a surge ignore earth ground via the 'whole house' protector? Then get earthed by the same earth ground through a protector inside the house? It will not. And that is why plug-in protectors do not even claim surge protection in numeric specs.


Above is only about secondary protection. Another protection layer is the 'primary surge protection' system. If you grasped above concepts, then you know what this picture is. A picture of what you must inspect for your 'primary surge protection' system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html 


Earth ground - first and foremost. Everything else is secondary. Protectors either connect to that protection - or are ineffective. A protector is only as effective as the only thing that provides protection - single point earth ground.


Your new home may be earthed to meet code. Protection means also exceeding code. Those 'exceeds' were defined earlier. You should have already been in the basement viewing what you have - after reading what is required. If not, then you have no idea what those words were saying.


Protection is always about earthing - including how that earthing is connected. None of this makes sense if you are not out there viewing it.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joe Piz* /forum/post/17965946
> 
> 
> 3) Having a fairly "modern" house, built in the last 10 years, the electrical system is quite likely grounded to earth.



Having a ground that meets code does not ensure it is adequate for dealing with surges. NEC requires 25 ohm or less impedance for a single driven rod. Impedance depends on the characteristics of the soil into which the rod is driven and varies considerably. If it fails, a second rod must be driven. NEC says nothing about what the impedance for the two rods must be. Most electricians just install two ground rods because they don't have the equipment to do the measurement and it is faster. So, how good is your ground? Who knows?


----------



## Raymond42262




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Guinness77* /forum/post/17680410
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Wondering if anybody could give me a recommendation on the size of the whole house surge protector to get, I was looking at either the IT Eaton XT-40 or XT 100, or step up to the PTX160. I see that you get the better warranty with the PTX series, is there any other benefits? I have a 200 amp feed.
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Do whole house protectors also provide noise reduction like the Panamax and Monster units ?


Or do I still have to get a traditional unit as well ?


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Raymond42262* /forum/post/17970105
> 
> 
> Do whole house protectors also provide noise reduction like the Panamax and Monster units ?



Read the specs. You can get equivalent noise reduction by spending dimes in Radio Shack.


Did you know speaker wire has polarity? If you connect the wire between amp and speaker backwards, then sound clarity is diminished. This was another Monster product. Speaker wire selling for $70 because one end was marked 'speaker'; the other end 'amplifier'. Many people also bought that Monster product AND highly recommended it. Monster has a tradition of reaping massive profits from 'magic' products.


What noise reduction? Electronics is required to have significant noise reduction. For numerous reasons starting with 'it is an FCC requirement'. Noise reduction so significant that Monster's high profit solution adds virtually nothing. 'Speaker wire with polarity' myth was bad enough. Now Monster has noise reduction? Please. Near zero means zero. Just enough above zero that they can claim massive noise reduction in sales brochures.


What is the "traditional unit"? A 'whole house' protector. The recent invention is magic boxes that somehow stop what three miles of sky could not.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17969918
> 
> 
> Having a ground that meets code does not ensure it is adequate for dealing with surges. NEC requires 25 ohm or less impedance for a single driven rod. Impedance depends on the characteristics of the soil into which the rod is driven and varies considerably. If it fails, a second rod must be driven. NEC says nothing about what the impedance for the two rods must be. Most electricians just install two ground rods because they don't have the equipment to do the measurement and it is faster. So, how good is your ground? Who knows?



Unfortunately, the majority of installations are never tested....including commercial and industrial. The three point testing can be costly.


In fact, depending upon the season, driven ground resistance can vary to great extremes. This is why additional ground bonds are made to water, building steel and other earthed items.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Raymond42262* /forum/post/17970105
> 
> 
> Do whole house protectors also provide noise reduction like the Panamax and Monster units ?
> 
> 
> Or do I still have to get a traditional unit as well ?




A decent whole house unit can provide noise reduction similar to what the Monster or Panamax units claim.


Do you need the noise reduction? .....Chances are that you have no noise problems and/or the power supplies in your electronics are immune anyway.


What is your definition of noise on the power system?


----------



## whatever86




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17733893
> 
> 
> That pit is also called a landfill. A perfect location for storing used lightning bolts.



westom


If you get a chance to go to a Good third party lab. They don't use grounding rod. They have a grounding pit because it guarantee to work all the time. So they can surge,esd,EFT,EMI and the grounding take it away year round.


grounding pit is not for everyone due to cost. I don't have IEEE account anymore so I can't get you some reference.


Sorry for the late reply.


----------



## Raymond42262




AV Doogie said:


> A decent whole house unit can provide noise reduction similar to what the Monster or Panamax units claim.
> 
> 
> Do you need the noise reduction? .....Chances are that you have no noise problems and/or the power supplies in your electronics are immune anyway.
> 
> *What is your definition of noise on the power system?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have a definition because I don't really know what I am talking about.
> 
> 
> I recently learned about the benefits of having a surge suppressor for a tv and then I decided to consider the possibility of doing the whole house at one time.
> 
> 
> When I was searching and reading about surge suppressors I was reading the specs for Panamax, Monster and others. I saw that many, if not all of them also reduce line noise and they are rated at Levels 1-6.
> 
> 
> I have not seen a chart defining what each level covers and what level I need to protect up to or whether it is even important.
> 
> 
> I have seen noise suppression listed as a quality on just about every surge suppressor but it is not listed as an asset on any whole house suppressor that I have seen such as the ones from Square D or Cutler/Eaton. At least it is not listed in generic terms like Level 1 , 2 etc..
> 
> 
> As you can see, I am a rookie and trying to learn. The most important lesson I have learned so far from this thread is grounding your home in at least 2 places. ............ One step at a time........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whatever86* /forum/post/17977396
> 
> 
> westom
> 
> 
> If you get a chance to go to a Good third party lab. They don't use grounding rod. They have a grounding pit because it guarantee to work all the time. So they can surge,esd,EFT,EMI and the grounding take it away year round.
> 
> *grounding pit* is not for everyone due to cost. I don't have IEEE account anymore so I can't get you some reference.
> 
> 
> Sorry for the late reply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is a grounding pit ?
> 
> 
> Earlier this week, I was checking out my satellite dish for grounding as it was suggested earlier in this thread. I touched the electric meter on the outside of the house and I got a shock, a tingle. I am assuming that it is not grounded correctly. Should I call an electrician or the building inspector? Our should I just try to run a pole into the ground and find a screw on the meter to ground it too ?
Click to expand...


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Raymond42262* /forum/post/17977905
> 
> 
> When I was searching and reading about surge suppressors I was reading the specs for Panamax, Monster and others. I saw that many, if not all of them also reduce line noise and they are rated at Levels 1-6.
> 
> 
> I have not seen a chart defining what each level covers and what level I need to protect up to or whether it is even important.
> 
> 
> I have seen noise suppression listed as a quality on just about every surge suppressor but it is not listed as an asset on any whole house suppressor that I have seen such as the ones from Square D or Cutler/Eaton. At least it is not listed in generic terms like Level 1 , 2 etc..
> 
> 
> As you can see, I am a rookie and trying to learn. The most important lesson I have learned so far from this thread is grounding your home in at least 2 places. ............ One step at a time........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The noise protection charts or levels, as far as I can tell, were developed by the manufacturers themselves. A specification developed by the manufacturer only highlights their own products and provides them with marketing benefits.
> 
> 
> My recommendation is to fix the noise problem where it originates, and that is only if it is a real problem. Installing a power conditioner or filter is a band-aid solution for a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> What is a grounding pit ?
> 
> 
> Earlier this week, I was checking out my satellite dish for grounding as it was suggested earlier in this thread. I touched the electric meter on the outside of the house and I got a shock, a tingle. I am assuming that it is not grounded correctly. Should I call an electrician or the building inspector? Our should I just try to run a pole into the ground and find a screw on the meter to ground it too ?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


A grounding pit is a dedicated handhole location (with cover) which provides access to a mechanical ground rod connection. The pit does not improve grounding impedances over a standard driven ground rod. The pit simply protects the ground rod and mechanical connection from damage and allows access for individual rod testing and inspections.


----------



## whatever86

Here a link of someone have alot of money to build a grounding pit.

http://cid-f8598568e1273d16.spaces.l...3D16!329.entry 

http://www.sehlindia.com/earthpit/


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Raymond42262* /forum/post/17977905
> 
> 
> I have seen noise suppression listed as a quality on just about every surge suppressor but it is not listed as an asset on any whole house suppressor that I have seen such as the ones from Square D or Cutler/Eaton. At least it is not listed in generic terms like Level 1 , 2 etc..



If noise protection exists, then the spec uses phrases such as 'dB per decade' or THD. Numbers for noise reduction are not listed because it does not really exist. Using their reasoning, I could wrap a power cord into circles and also claim noise reduction. Anybody can claim near zero anything when using subjective (junk science) reasoning. Where are the numbers such as dB per decade and THD? Junk science is alive and well using he same reasoning that also proved Saddam had WMDs.


Companies such as Monster earn massive profits playing fast and loose with reality. Same reason why Monster also sold speaker wire with polarity for $70. And why Monster sells the same Belkin and APC protector circuit for $150. By simply increasing the price, a majority will *know* it must be better. If Monster is also selling the product, then all those products are probably a scam.


How good is noise reduction inside electronics? This will define a minimal standard: First AC main current enters via a superior line filter. Already the appliance has more noise reduction than Monster. Then that AC is rectified - converted into a higher voltage DC. Then filtered again. Then converted to radio frequency AC. Then filtered and galvanically isolated. Converted from a high voltage radio wave to a low voltage radio wave. Already massive noise reduction well beyond what 100 Monster protectors in series might claim. But then even more.


That low voltage radio wave is again converted to DC. Every conversion to DC also converts noise energy to DC electricity. Then filtered but again. Electronics routinely do massive noise reduction. Monster invented a straw man - a need for noise reduction. Then Monster invented mythical noise reduction to increase their profit margin. Monster specs for their $150 product are similar to specs found in a $7 protector sold in grocery stores. Appreciate how many are so easily scammed. Ignore Monster, et al myths about noise reduction.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Raymond42262* /forum/post/17977905
> 
> 
> What is a grounding pit ?
> 
> Earlier this week, I was checking out my satellite dish for grounding as it was suggested earlier in this thread. I touched the electric meter on the outside of the house and I got a shock, a tingle. I am assuming that it is not grounded correctly.



First, that tingle means grounding does not exist for human safety. Cable company must connect their cable short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to the same earth ground rod used by AC electric. That connection is required by the National Electrical Code. They are responsible for connecting to the earth ground that you are responsible for providing.


Second, code requires all wire to connect to that same grounding electrode either directly (cable TV, satellite dish) or via a protector (telephone). Transistor safety (what exceeds code requirements) says that ground connection must be short, no splices, no sharp wire bends, separated from other non-grounding wires, not inside metallic conduit, and all wires only meet at the ground electrode.


Third, ground pit. Your earthing must both meet and exceed post-1990 code requirements. Six ground electrodes are defined. Any earth ground you install must also meet the definition listed in article 250.52. Only permitted are metal underground water pipe, metal building frame, concrete encased electrode (Ufer ground), ground ring (buried bare copper wire), rod and pipe electrodes, and plate electrodes.


Of those six, the only ground that is not sufficient (must be supplemented) is a water pipe ground. Many pre-1990 homes only had that water pipe ground. Too many of those older homes are missing even that water pipe ground.


Fourth, a utility recommends how to fix an older home with completely defective earthing:
http://*******.com/yefm8n9 (replace stars with t i n y u r l ) or
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-b...ech-tip-08.asp 


Again, only your are responsible for providing the earthing electrode. You install it or you hire an agent (an electrician) to do so.


A shock (tingle) means that wire (or something else) is improperly earth grounded even for human safety. Also would not provide transistor safety.


----------



## Riffmeister

I have some Monster Cable power conditioners and they do an excellent job of not only cleaning up the power, but also protecting my equipment, not only during surges but also momentary voltage drops.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Riffmeister* /forum/post/17983208
> 
> 
> I have some Monster Cable power conditioners and they do an excellent job of not only cleaning up the power, but also protecting my equipment, not only during surges but also momentary voltage drops.



How do you know? Where are manufacturer spec numbers to prove your claim? I keep asking for those spec numbers. You posted and did not provide those spec numbers? We should believe only because you *know* - never say why?


To everyone, this should be apparent. No supporting facts. No numbers. No reasons why. How junk science and scams are promoted. A simple rule. If he does not say why and does not provide numbers, then immediately suspect a lie - a scam.


How does that Monster Cable protector provide increased voltage during brownout outs? Where is the energy storage device inside that Monster Cable product? Does not exist. Not even listed in Monster's numeric specs. Therefore we know that is a lie.


A Monster Cable product is recommended by some only because that is what the retail salesman recommended. Because it is so expensive. Even Monster does not claim what this poster states. Junk science is alive and well among those recommend plug-in protectors.


----------



## Riffmeister

If you care so much about specs, ask Monster Cable. I have never in my life cared about "db per decade" figure for anything, so I can't really help you there.


I will point out that the black levels on my monitor got better after hooking up the Monster Power conditioner. Soundstage is better too, with an imperceptible noise floor. I am quite certain that the people that designed it know quite a bit more about power circuit design than do you.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Riffmeister* /forum/post/17984475
> 
> 
> ...Soundstage is better too...



What the heck does that mean?


FWIW even a first year electronic engineering student can design a filter equivalent to any of those in any of the Monster products. It ain't rocket science.


----------



## ChrisWiggles




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Riffmeister* /forum/post/17984475
> 
> 
> If you care so much about specs, ask Monster Cable. I have never in my life cared about "db per decade" figure for anything, so I can't really help you there.
> 
> 
> I will point out that the black levels on my monitor got better after hooking up the Monster Power conditioner. Soundstage is better too, with an imperceptible noise floor. I am quite certain that the people that designed it know quite a bit more about power circuit design than do you.



Unless you have a CRT monitor, there would be no such impact on video, and even with a CRT such claims are very dubious to me because it appears unlikely you have measured such a change or observed any test patterns to ascertain any differences.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Riffmeister* /forum/post/17984475
> 
> 
> If you care so much about specs, ask Monster Cable. I have never in my life cared about "db per decade" figure for anything, so I can't really help you there.
> 
> 
> I will point out that the black levels on my monitor got better after hooking up the Monster Power conditioner. Soundstage is better too, with an imperceptible noise floor. I am quite certain that the people that designed it know quite a bit more about power circuit design than do you.



...and again.


I would really like to see them (Monster, et al) post some meaningful specs. At least then we could discuss something real..... this mystical stuff is hard for me to understand


----------



## saumil




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Riffmeister* /forum/post/17984475
> 
> 
> If you care so much about specs, ask Monster Cable. I have never in my life cared about "db per decade" figure for anything, so I can't really help you there.



Monster makes a lot of things. Give at least the Model # to start with.


Not 'all' the houses have 'all' the problems and you will never know until you will get one. Also, the Cost does not justify the quality of the product.


----------



## video321

O.k...let me jump in here.


I currently have a Leviton 51120-PTC whole-house protector:


AC Protection Modes: L-N/L-L/N-G

Rated L-N Voltage 120V

Maximum Continuous L-N Voltage 150V

Maximum Transient Energy

(8 x 20 &s waveform)

80,000

Maximum single-pulse transient current

(8 x 20 &s, Amps peak)

800V

UL 1449 Suppressed Voltage Ratings

(@500 amps 8 x 20 &s waveform)

L-N/L-L/L-G

500/700/500 Volts

Noise Evaluation Bandwith 100Hz-100MHz

Noise Rejection @ 50 ohms 20-30 dB

Home Automation Protocol Campatible

(X-10, Lon Works)

Telephone Protection:

Maximum Operating Voltage 90V DC

Maximum Surge Current 1.9 kAmps @ 3.8 kV

Clamping Voltage 220V

CATV/Satellite Protection:

Maximum Operating Voltage 10V DC

Clamping Voltage 25V



I also then have various Panamax POU protectors, such as the Max2:


Protect or Disconnect™ Circuitry...................... Yes

Line Voltage.............................120 VAC, 50/60 Hz

Initial Clamping Level...................................200V

UL 1449 Suppression Rating.........................330V

Protection Modes............................L-N, L-G, N-G

Maximum Current Rating.................15A (1800 W)

EMI/RFI Noise Filtration...50 dB (100 kHz - 1 MHz)

Response Time..............................


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *video321* /forum/post/18008720
> 
> 
> 1. Is the use of my POU protectors considered bad???
> 
> I always thought that you were supposed to layer protection. Being able to deal with any surge current that gets let through by the whole-house protector. If the POU protector does deflect the surge, but at the risk of other equipment I can live with that. Afterall, it's the equipment with the surge protector that I really care about. Further, if the surge protected equipment is on a dedicated circuit wouldn't it be deflected by the surge protector and not hit anything else since it would be routed back toward the panel where the ground is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Point of use protection is a recommended industry practice. Used in a layered system it can be effective secondary protection. Too often, this is the only protection used, and it is generally not enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 2. What would be the need, if any, to protect a branch circuit going to another building; ex: a shed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If your not worried about the shed, I am not worried about the shed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a possibility of the shed circuit becoming a conduit for a surge/transient which can feed into the house system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 3. westom stated that it is more important to have a sat dish grounded as close as possible rather than having
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> the 2 independent electrodes bonded? Why would that be? Wouldn't you have a constant non-stop ground potential?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't know what the original question or setup was?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 4. I have 2 rods, of what length I don't know, burried at the service entrance. I'm in a sandy area and was thinking of adding more (I've never seen anything that said too many could be a bad thing!) How far apart should they be of each other? Length of the rod distance? Does pattern shape of sunken rods really matter? I would make sure it created a single loop regardless. Is there something I should coat the rods and clamps with? No, I won't be going with a weld
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Too many rods may not be a bad thing, but if they are not installed correctly, they simply waste money and resources. Multiple rods need to be installed at a minimum distance of 6 feet....sometimes further depending upon soil conductivity at the location. A typical triad system consists of three- ten foot rods driven six feet apart in a triangular pattern. The rods are then mechanically bonded and attached to the ground system bus. You do not need to coat the rods....if you have poor soil conditions, you can treat the soil in which the rods are driven into.


hope this helps


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *video321* /forum/post/18008720
> 
> 
> I currently have a Leviton 51120-PTC whole-house protector: ...
> 
> I also then have various Panamax POU protectors, such as the Max2: ...
> 
> All incoming data lines are bonded at the service entrance.
> 
> 
> Now for the questions....
> 
> 1. Is the use of my POU protectors considered bad??? ...
> 
> 2. What would be the need, if any, to protect a branch circuit going to another building; ex: a shed?
> 
> 3. westom stated that it is more important to have a sat dish grounded as close as possible rather than having the 2 independent electrodes bonded? ...



First, your post assumes the protector provides protection. No matter how many times it is posted, it still amazes me how many want to mix outright lies and advertising myths with facts. The protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


And again, you did not discuss details (specs) of what provides protection - earth ground. Did not discuss how that Leviton protector connects to earth. Those facts are also why the POU protector typically does near zero protection, does not claim any protection, and may earth surges destructively via adjacent appliances. And still I have not said enough for you to understand this. But for now, anything you thought you knew about surge protection - throw it away. Combining lies with science is only reason why you again assumed a box is protection.


For example, if the Leviton ground wire goes up over the foundation and down to earth, then you have compromised protection. That ground wire is too long. Has too many sharp bends. And not separated from other wires. That ground wire is routed through the foundation and down to the single point earth ground. These facts were more important if you had grasped this sentence: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


Also not listed are how other wires (phone, etc) connect to earth. If those are not properly earthed, then the Leviton based system is compromised but again.


Second, no POU protector is a protection layer. Every protection layer is defined by the only thing always required in each layer - single point earth ground. Why would a surge enter the building by ignoring a 'whole house' protector's ground? Then go to a POU protector. Then back to the same earth ground it first ignored? It will not. The POU only does something useful when you define where energy dissipates. Remember that sentence? Protection is always about where energy dissipates. The POU only does layering if you did not grasp a concept.


How does those hundreds of joules in a POU protector stop and absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? If not, then where does that energy dissipate? Not rhetorical. You answer that question. Where does energy dissipate? Stop. Read no more. Where does energy dissipate?


Protection is the single point earth ground. Each protection layer is each single point earth ground. What does a protector do? NIST says it best:

> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work

> by diverting the surges to ground.

> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is

> not done properly.


Where is that POU protector earthing? Does not exist. Manufacturer will not discuss it. Has no wire to do that earthing. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Asked again because you still view protection as some protector box. And the other fact repeated because it was stated repeatedly and you still did not get it. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


Layers: Above is only 'secondary' protection layer. That 'whole house' protector (with or without plug-in protectors) is one layer. Also inspect the 'primary' surge protection layer:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html 


This post to get you to throw away most of what you were told about protectors. To get you to learn what was known 100 years ago by also disposing of popular lies and myths. Yes, wordy because you are still having difficulty separating reality from popular myths. Next post addresses your more technical questions.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *video321* /forum/post/18008720
> 
> 
> ... 1. Is the use of my POU protectors considered bad??? ...
> 
> 2. What would be the need, if any, to protect a branch circuit going to another building; ex: a shed?



To better understand concepts behind your questions, view a professional's application note:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf 


Two structures exist. Each structure has its own single point earth ground. Any wire that enters either structure first connects to that structures single point ground. To make that protection even better, the two single point grounds are interconnected by a buried ground wire.


You do same with the satellite dish and building. Satellite dish must have a connection to its own earth ground. A connection best made as electrically short as possible. The incoming coax wire connects to that dish where the dish is also earthed.


Your building has a different single point ground. That coax wire must also connect to the building's earth ground before entering the building.


To make all earthing even better, the satellite dish ground rod is interconnected to the building's single point earth ground via a buried ground wire. Hope this corrects your confusion.


Also look closer at that app note. Even underground incoming wires must connect to earth ground before entering the building. Earthed either via a protector OR using a direct wire connection. Why a direct connection? Because no protector does protection. What is always required - even when connecting only via a wire? Single point earth ground is the protection. Defines the protection 'layer'.



A POU protector only protects from one type of surge - that is typically not destructive. Yes, many are told to add plug-in protectors to increase protection. Then we add numbers to subjective claims. From an IEEE Standard - The Green Book entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':

> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path which

> will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage.


You should finally understand that from the previous post. Continuing:

> Even this means is not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...

> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one

> stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...


So if the 'whole house protector is that effective, then what does the POU protector do? Maybe an additional 0.2%? A 'whole house' protectors for about $1 per protected appliance. $25 or $150 per appliance for the additional 0.2%? Notice a completely different conclusion once we include the numbers.


POU protectors also need protection provided by earthing and 'whole house' protectors. Appreciate scary pictures of what sometimes happens when POU protectors have insufficient protection:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554 
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm 
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html 
http://*******.com/3x73ol where **** are t i n y u r l and is entitled

"Surge Protector Fires"
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/ 
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/les...tectorfire.htm 
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339 


To sell a $3 power strip with some ten cent parts for $150, then many POU protector manufacturers will forget to mention what is posted above. Or so confuse you that you were still thinking a protector box is also protection.


What is defined here can then answer the shed question - in a next post.

Now for the sound byte: Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *video321* /forum/post/18008720
> 
> 
> 2. What would be the need, if any, to protect a branch circuit going to another building; ex: a shed?



Protectors are simple science. Protection - earthing - is an art. Your shed questions provides woefully too few details.


Generally a shed that connect only back the main building and is less than 20 feet away is electrically considered part of the main building. If not, that application notes of two separate structures also applies to your mains building and shed:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf 


For example, does some other wire connect to that shed? Then the shed must have its own single point earth ground. But if that shed is wired with safety ground connected back to the main panel, then the shed cannot have its own earth ground (complex technical exceptions apply).


If the only incoming path for shed surges is the main house, then the nearby shed may be part of the 'whole house' protection system. But if the shed has other incoming surges (ie some intercom wire to another house or direct lightning strike wires inside the shed), then the shed acts as a lightning rod connected directly to appliances in the main house.


Appreciate the art? Appreciate why no one can answer your question without, for example, viewing the entire existing structure, interconnections, and geology.


However, if concepts (the art) described in previous posts were grasped, then any layman can install a sufficient protection system.


BTW, nobody discussed geology. This paragraph supplements concepts and other earthing techniques in AV Doogie's post. The art - that earthing system - typically requires environmental knowledge such as geology. Whereas two earth ground rods may be more than sufficient for most buildings, other conditions such as sand, nearby buried transcontinental pipelines, being at the end of local power distribution, or a building on two different geological materials - also affect quality of the single point earth ground. And yes, spacing between electrodes is part of that solution to maximize an electromagnetic interface between the building and earth.


Even better are Ufer ground or ground rings. The two underlying words - both apply - to research are equipotential and conductivity.


Yes, it is an art. A system that is only first tested with the first surge. If surge damage occurs, then the human returns to locate a human mistake in that earthing system. In art, we learn mostly from our mistakes.


----------



## video321

Westom-


I completely understand the need for a good ground which is why I even inquired about adding more electrodes and their patterns. I get it...I do. I also mentioned that I have a whole-house protector already installed as my main line of defense. Yup...understand the reasoning for that.


To answer you questions:

1. The whole-house unit has 3 short (~10") leads going to each phase and the grounding/neutral bar. From there is 6ga copper wire going all of 5' to the 1st of 2 ground rods. So, I understand the importance of the main house suppressor, but was under the impression from reading articles by the likes of the NIST & IEEE that secondary suppression was also needed for any surges above the clamping rating of the whole-house unit. You say no.


2. All incoming wires are bonded at this single point of entry.


3. I'm not confused about grounding a sat dish, but I am curious about some of the things you said, especially this:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17953094
> 
> 
> Of course, a satellite dish itself also must be earthed. From the dish must be a wire to earth. Code requires that ground also be interconnected to the single point ground. Best done by connecting that other ground rod to the single point ground via a buried bare copper wire. Therefore the wire from dish to earth can be as short as possible. However, many do not bother with that buried interconnection. More important is to have that dish earthed directly and as short as practical.



Why would it be more important to have the dish earthed with the shortest length practical over being bonded to the single ground reference? Wouldn't that create a constant ground potential that could be very dangerous, especially if it were a distance like opposite sides of the house? You also then mentioned the coax should be grounded at this shortest distance ground AND at the service entrance ground; 2 separate coax grounds for 1 wire?


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/17953094
> 
> 
> You do same with the satellite dish and building. Satellite dish must have a connection to its own earth ground. A connection best made as electrically short as possible. The incoming coax wire connects to that dish where the dish is also earthed.
> 
> 
> Your building has a different single point ground. That coax wire must also connect to the building's earth ground before entering the building.




4. I asked about a shed because I want to run electric out to it ~50' and from my understanding is that it becomes a liability for surge energy to enter that line. There won't be anything in there that I care about, but if any energy does get onto that line I now would think if it came back towards the house the whole-house unit would pick it up. However, I'm not entirely sure since it would be coming in on a branch circuit and not the mains, but I would think for this not to matter. Your thoughts?


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *video321* /forum/post/18012308
> 
> 
> 3. I'm not confused about grounding a sat dish, but I am curious about some of the things you said, especially this:
> 
> 
> Why would it be more important to have the dish earthed with the shortest length practical over being bonded to the single ground reference?



You want a direct lightning strike to get to earth via a lowest impedance connection. In simple terms, the dish is a lightning rod. Like all lightning rods, best is a shorter path to earth (what will be called dish's earth ground). Requirements similar to what a lightning rod connection would need. For example, a bare 6 AWG wire from dish to earth.


See the application note antenna tower? That is your satellite dish.


Now, that dish's earth ground also may be connected to singe point earth ground via a buried wire. (Similar in the application note is a buried ground wire from antenna tower ground to building ground.) An unlikely 'human safety' voltage difference then definitely would not exist. And that interconnecting buried ground wire also makes both earth grounds even better. Satellite dish has a best earth ground for lightning strikes (via 6 AWG wire). Buried ground wire also connects dish's ground to buildings single point for human safety. And also converts the dish's earth ground into part of the single point earth ground.


However many do not bother installing that interconnecting wire.


Since coax cable (from dish to inside building) is connected to a building earth ground (those two ground rods) then coax also makes 'human safety' voltage differences unlikely (even though code does not consider that conductor sufficient).


If dish is on the oppose side of a house, then just another reason why you want the dish earthed as short as possible (via 6 AWG) to dish's earth ground. Obviously this distance makes a coax cable connection to building's single point ground difficult. But necessary to protect household appliances (ie dish receiver and TV).


Duke Energy demonstrates another solution: how to correct grounds when wires do not enter at a common location. This also may be a relevant solution:
http://*******.com/yefm8n9 or
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-b...ech-tip-08.asp 




Yes, install POU protectors to enhance the protection system. And then numbers demonstrate little enhancement is provided.


Electronic appliances also can be destroyed by power cycling too often. Then we add numbers. Eight times every day for ... 34 years. Virtually no damage from power cycling once we add numbers. Another example of differences between a subjective conclusion verses one tempered by the numbers. And an example of why those POU protector recommendations are subjective.




The shed - if power lines enter at the breaker box as to be earthed via the 'whole house' protector, then any surge originating or passing through the shed would be earthed before entering the building. 50' exceeds the traditional 20' minimum. However if the shed was inside a buried ground ring that connects to the main building's single point earth ground, then equipotential exists beneath the shed - making surge damage inside the shed less likely. Or the shed can have its own single point earth ground (just the ground ring around the shed or ground rods) and use a 'whole house' protector to connect each AC wire to that ground ring. Plenty of options exist including whether you want both structures surge protected or just the house.



Appreciate the lesson of a dead cow or golfers in another discussion:
http://www.doityourselfchristmas.com...d.php?p=103677 

Same problem / solution may apply to earth beneath the shed. However are you concerned with surge protection inside the shed? If not, a power wire to the shed, if entering the main building properly earthed at the main house breaker box, would mean surges in the shed should not harm main house appliances.


----------



## video321

That potential that affects the cow is exactly what I'm referring to.


Getting back to the shed....

If I just dug a hole around the shed and buried a 6ga bare copper wire around it (how deep?) that was then ran the (just say 50') distance to the house main service ground that would protect everything in the shed?


What if I didn't have the buried ring, but had the single branch circuit going to the shed and had a small pool pump or something to that extent plugged in; how would I protect the pump outside?


Oh..and that sat dish on the other side of the house...if I have the dish and coax grounded right under the dish AND the grounds bonded by a buried 6ga copper wire would I still need to run and ground the coax to the other side of the house where the main service and ground is?


----------



## AV Doogie

Quote:

Originally Posted by *video321* 
1. The whole-house unit has 3 short (~10") leads going to each phase and the grounding/neutral bar. From there is 6ga copper wire going all of 5' to the 1st of 2 ground rods. So, I understand the importance of the main house suppressor, but was under the impression from reading articles by the likes of the NIST & IEEE that secondary suppression was also needed for any surges above the clamping rating of the whole-house unit. You say no.
Video,


Maybe I can clarify.


Westom is incorrect when indicating that layered protection is not useful. Many studies have proven otherwise. See the IT (EATON) information attached....page 10. The layered approach is an industry standard. I have seen this work personnally.


Additionally, you probably have a water connection bond to the main ground system. This connection typically provides the lowest impedance to ground that can be measured. The combination of driven ground rod and water connection generally combine to provide an excellent path to ground. The reason that water is not allowed as the only connection is due to the possibility that the outside connection may be made of a dielectric (plastic or PVC) coupling.

 

Surge suppression.pdf 476.822265625k . file


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/18016382
> 
> 
> Video,
> 
> Westom is incorrect when indicating that layered protection is not useful. Many studies have proven otherwise. See the IT (EATON) information attached....page 10. The layered approach is an industry standard. I have seen this work personnally.



A layered approach means each layer must exist. That means the earth ground. A plug-in protector without earth is not part of any layer. A plug-in protector without earth does what with that energy? Again, protection (and each layer) is always about where energy dissipates. And so we apply numbers to what the plug-in protector contributes: maybe 0.2% additional protection.


Worse, a protector without the 'whole house' protector can even contribute to appliance damage.


This problem was documented in Dr Martzloff's 1994 IEEE paper. His very first conclusion notes problemswith plug-in (point of connection) protectors that do not have the necessary earthing connection:

> Conclusion:

> 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable

> difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because,

> surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.


Either energy dissipates harmlessly in earth. Or energy is inside the building seeking earth ground destructively via appliances. As Dr Martzloff notes, damage because "even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection ..."



Posted next are some problems with water pipe earth ground. No water pipe ground is sufficient. Water pipe earth ground always must be supplemented with one of the other five superior earthing electrodes. Because water pipe earth ground is insufficient.


For surge protection, a water pipe too far from the service entrance (ie more than 10 feet away) means compromised protection. Even a lead solder joint or 90 degree elbow in that pipe compromises transient protection.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *video321* /forum/post/18014582
> 
> 
> That potential that affects the cow is exactly what I'm referring to.
> 
> 
> Getting back to the shed....
> 
> If I just dug a hole around the shed and buried a 6ga bare copper wire around it (how deep?) that was then ran the (just say 50') distance to the house main service ground that would protect everything in the shed?



Again, refer to the application note of two structures:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf 


Your shed is equivalent to that antenna tower. Tower's earth ground protects tower electronics. Your buried ground loop (or Ufer ground) is protection for inside the shed - with or without a connection to main house earth ground. As in that application note, buried ground connects to any wire that enters (leaves) the tower (shed).


A connection from shed ground to main house ground enhances protection. Is not necessary. However electrical code requirements (depending on how electric is installed - for example three wire or four power wires) can mean those two grounds are interconnected anyway.


Now if you have a pump on a single phase, well, a surge entering from earth, through the pump, to house 'whole house' protector is one electric current path. Another might be from earth, through breaker box, and out to and back into earth ground via the pump. Even homes with wells have this problem.


Code says safety ground must not connect to earth ground - except at the main panel. Safety ground and earth ground are electrically different. Therefore the earth ground that makes earth at the pump equipotential to main house earthing is a separate wire.


One way to make that voltage differences less is to bury a ground wire (extend the buildings single point ground) on a buried ground wire adjacent or above the buried pump power wire.


Requirements for a buried ground wire are defined by code - both how deep and how large that bare copper wire. See code article 250.52 and following paragraphs for details. A buried wire must be thicker than 6 AWG. To keep that wire into moist and unfrozen ground. And to have a wire that remains conductive and unbroken for decades.


Article 250.50+ also notes a water pipe ground is the only ground that is insufficient - that must be supplemented by other grounding techniques. (Code is often available in larger public libraries.) Water pipe ground (especially if not adjacent to the breaker box) has excessive impedance and other problems that can make it a poor earth ground for surge protection. Those other five earthing electrodes are required for earthing electric both for human safety and transistor safety.


Satellite dish: Duke Energy shows the good, bad, and ugly. Good means all wires connect to single point ground at the same location - a best solution. Bad means multiple earth grounds. Ugly is a compromise - connecting to single point earth ground but at different locations. Ugly is how to convert multiple earth grounds into a large single point ground. Ugly has one advantage. It creates better equipotential beneath the building - therefore is not a complete compromise.


Best for that satellite dish coax is to earth where all wires enter the building. Ugly is a lesser but still sufficient protection. Sometimes compromise is best when, for example, routing that coax cable outside the house until it can enter is just too difficult or creates other problems. Of course, testing this solution only happens when the first surge occurs (maybe once every seven years). That makes protection an art.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/18017140
> 
> 
> A layered approach means each layer must exist. That means the earth ground. A plug-in protector without earth is not part of any layer. A plug-in protector without earth does what with that energy? Again, protection (and each layer) is always about where energy dissipates. And so we apply numbers to what the plug-in protector contributes: maybe 0.2% additional protection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You would need to support that protection number with something from an actual reputable source.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Worse, a protector without the 'whole house' protector can even contribute to appliance damage.
> 
> 
> This problem was documented in Dr Martzloff's 1994 IEEE paper. His very first conclusion notes problemswith plug-in (point of connection) protectors that do not have the necessary earthing connection:
> 
> > Conclusion:
> 
> > 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable
> 
> > difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because,
> 
> > surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.
> 
> 
> Either energy dissipates harmlessly in earth. Or energy is inside the building seeking earth ground destructively via appliances. As Dr Martzloff notes, damage because "even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection ..."
> 
> 
> 
> Posted next are some problems with water pipe earth ground. No water pipe ground is sufficient. Water pipe earth ground always must be supplemented with one of the other five superior earthing electrodes. Because water pipe earth ground is insufficient.
> 
> 
> For surge protection, a water pipe too far from the service entrance (ie more than 10 feet away) means compromised protection. Even a lead solder joint or 90 degree elbow in that pipe compromises transient protection.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


You don't read the information presented! I also recommend that you read Soeres Book of grounding practices....it has a great deal of pertinent information related to this discussion.


Again, you need to read my posts. Layered protection works well when the main 'whole house' suppressor has mitigated the majority of the surge. The remaining overvoltage/surge energy must be mitigated or it is then free to travel through the remaining wiring system of the facility. I have seen this demonstrated numerous times with simulated builds and a surge generator. The layered approach works, it is standard industry practice, please read the bulletins and posts which apply. I have attached at least one for your use.


I never said that the water pipe ground itself was sufficient -especially these days. You need to re-read.


No one here is denying that grounding is an important part of the suppression system. Residential folks are not going to spend the time to have soil treatments performed, drive multiple ground rods, and check bonding resistance or have costly fall of potential tests performed.


In the real world, the majority of grounding systems (driven rod and water) provide an adequate system for suppression of most transients.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/18017750
> 
> 
> Again, you need to read my posts. Layered protection works well when the main 'whole house' suppressor has mitigated the majority of the surge. The remaining overvoltage/surge energy must be mitigated or it is then free to travel through the remaining wiring system of the facility.



The plug-in protector is the same layer has the 'whole house' protectors. I have said that repeatedly, provided many examples, explained why, and cited sources. I read what you posted. But I have also done this stuff too many decades ago to know what is really being said.


For example, do 120 volt electronics only protect themselves up to 300 volts as one of your citations might imply? Well, even 1970 international standards required 120 volt electronics to withstand 600 volts without damage. Intel ATX standards for computers over a decade ago required computers to withstand thousands of volts. And current international standards require electronics to withstand 2000 and 15,000 volts without damage.


A datasheet for currently designed interface semiconductors says same on the very first page. Read the voltage numbers:
http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds...7E-MAX491E.pdf 


Anything a power strip might accomplish is already inside the appliance. So that protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed, we install secondary protection in a building (ie an earthed 'whole house' protector). And inspect the primary surge protection layer:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html 


Sometimes a protection layer is nothing more than earthing - no protectors. Sometimes a protection layer includes protectors. But in every case, the layer must always have one thing: earth ground. No way around 100 years of well proven science.


Homeowners are responsible for earthing that defines secondary surge protection. Homeowners can inspect earthing that provides the primary protection layer. But in every case, a layer's only component that effectively dissipates energy is earth ground.


Plug-in protectors protect from a type of surge that is typically not destructive. That one 'whole house' protector makes irrelevant. And also made irrelevant by circuits inside every appliance including GFCIs and dimmer switches. Internal circuits that explain why nobody is trooping daily to hardware stores to replace these appliances.


Plug-in protectors avoid all discussion of earthing. Honesty would harm sales. Why would one spend $1 per protected appliance for over 99% protection? Then $25 or $150 per appliance for an additional 0.2%? A protector does not provide protection. A protector is only as effective as that which provides protection - earth ground. Earth ground - where energy dissipates - defines each layer of protection. Why are you arguing for what is not done where damage cannot happen?


----------



## video321

westom-

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one.


We had a bad storm a couple days ago that had the power going off & coming back on a lot. When I got home that day I found my computer left in a "not so off or on power state" (it was in stand by when I left.) From that point on whenever I tried to put the PC in stand by it would try to put the computer into a low power state by turning off all signaling (monitor/mouse/etc.), but it wouldn't cut the power completely, like keeping the fans going. It would never come out of this state either until I completely killed the power. Also, if you issued a shut down command it would just restart instead. Now, I can tell you this....it's nothing to do with the OS as I know how to trouble shoot a PC and the first thing I did was reset the BIOS. Even those power cycles from the BIOS caused the PC to shut down then restart rather than a "normal" soft reboot. I then hooked up a temp PS thinking bad power, but that did nothing as well. RAM was fine too. Lastly, before having to deal with the MB itself, I disconnected the power cable from the surge suppressor and plugged it straight into the wall....all was fine from that point on.


So...I have a whole-house unit and the POU unit (specs for both are listed above).

I went through this process last night and ran out of time to trouble shoot the surge suppressor any further, but would like to think that maybe things wouldn't be so pretty on my end if the POU protector wasn't there.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/18018067
> 
> 
> The plug-in protector is the same layer has the 'whole house' protectors. I have said that repeatedly, provided many examples, explained why, and cited sources. I read what you posted. But I have also done this stuff too many decades ago to know what is really being said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I too have been at this for a couple of decades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> For example, do 120 volt electronics only protect themselves up to 300 volts as one of your citations might imply? Well, even 1970 international standards required 120 volt electronics to withstand 600 volts without damage. Intel ATX standards for computers over a decade ago required computers to withstand thousands of volts. And current international standards require electronics to withstand 2000 and 15,000 volts without damage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 120V equipment has had insulation capabilities well in excess of 120v for some time, depending upon the type of equipment 600-1000V is standard. The insulation level does not change the fact that frequent transient/overvoltage conditions can and do damage equipment...especially if the condition persists. Damage can be done with lower transient levels over a long period of time similar to short periods with large transients/overvoltage conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> A datasheet for currently designed interface semiconductors says same on the very first page. Read the voltage numbers:
> http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds...7E-MAX491E.pdf
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This does not apply to consumer equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Anything a power strip might accomplish is already inside the appliance. So that protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed, we install secondary protection in a building (ie an earthed 'whole house' protector). And inspect the primary surge protection layer:
> http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The 'appliance' can still be damaged by the let through voltage from the whole house system. The whole house or the first level of protection can not dissipate all of the incoming surge energy....something always gets through.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Sometimes a protection layer is nothing more than earthing - no protectors. Sometimes a protection layer includes protectors. But in every case, the layer must always have one thing: earth ground. No way around 100 years of well proven science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agreed, never had a problem with this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Homeowners are responsible for earthing that defines secondary surge protection. Homeowners can inspect earthing that provides the primary protection layer. But in every case, a layer's only component that effectively dissipates energy is earth ground.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You still need to direct the energy to ground...that is the job of the suppressor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Plug-in protectors protect from a type of surge that is typically not destructive. That one 'whole house' protector makes irrelevant. And also made irrelevant by circuits inside every appliance including GFCIs and dimmer switches. Internal circuits that explain why nobody is trooping daily to hardware stores to replace these appliances.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If this were the case, we would not be having this discussion. The damage from let through voltage and other components is a real factor in some types of failures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Plug-in protectors avoid all discussion of earthing. Honesty would harm sales. Why would one spend $1 per protected appliance for over 99% protection? Then $25 or $150 per appliance for an additional 0.2%? A protector does not provide protection. A protector is only as effective as that which provides protection - earth ground. Earth ground - where energy dissipates - defines each layer of protection. Why are you arguing for what is not done where damage cannot happen?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Again, where does the 0.2% come from! A second level of protection will direct that let through voltage from the main suppressor back to the main grounding system. It is simple. If you think that the main suppressor is diverting all of the energy from the system you are mistaken, depending upon a large number of factors, the let through voltage to equipment downstream can be anywhere above the suppressor rating (330V?) to many thousands of volts. This energy needs to be directed instead of letting it roam freely throughout your system.


----------



## JoeG44

A question for WESTOM:


What do you recommend would be the approach for Joe-six pack home owner in surge protection for protecting Home Theater Electronics? -- Knowing that most homeowners are =not= going to improve their present ground earthing. I for one am not concerned about surges due to lightning strikes but surges due to the Power Company's grid switching or through heavy current load switching in one's house (appliances going off and on).


1) Do nothing

2) Whole House protection at the Panel?

3) Whole House protection at the Panel & receptacles (where needed)

4) other


If you recommend an approach - what vendors can supply the goods? SquareD(now Schneider), Cutler Hammer, Leviton, Monster(just kidding)?


Thanks in advance.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *video321* /forum/post/18020391
> 
> 
> ... I found my computer left in a "not so off or on power state" (it was in stand by when I left.) From that point on whenever I tried to put the PC in stand by it would try to put the computer into a low power state by turning off all signaling (monitor/mouse/etc.), but it wouldn't cut the power completely, like keeping the fans going.



Fans can spin, lights glow, and disk drive spin. And the power 'system' can still output defective power. On power on, a power controller gives voltages time to achieve limits. If not, then the controller cuts off power. Your symptoms are consistent.


To observe requires a 3.5 digit multimeter (ie from Wal-Mart) to probe relevant signals (while disconnecting nothing). IOW a first wire probed is the purple wire. That DC voltage must exceed 4.87. And the number may contain other useful information. If less, a power controller can be unstable. Voltages on the green and gray wires are measured both before and when the power switch is pressed. Both numbers and the response. In your case, I expect the green wire to drop from well above 2.0 volts to less than 0.7. Then I except to the gray wire to never exceed 2.4 volts. If this 'sees' your problem, then the supply informs the controller of a defect. And the controller drives the green wire voltage back above 2.0 volts.


To better understand where a defect exists, monitor any one of red, orange, and yellow wires when the power switch is pressed. What those numbers report is the next step to locating a failure AND to determine why that failure exists. And yes, those numbers also report symptoms of what may be happening inside the POU protector.


Appreciate that standby is still a computer powered on. Often better is to hibernate it. But even power off does not typically protect from transient damage. Your post implies a transient existed inside the building followed by a power off. Assuming this is transient damage (not a manufacturing defect), then later ask how that transient got into the building. A question that is best left unanswered until the analysis or autopsy results are known.


Power without a protector should have no affect - assuming the power strip is providing proper connections. For example, the meter (in continuity mode) should show no high megohm connection between the neutral, hot, and safety ground prongs (both at plug and on computer's receptacle connection). And zero ohms (as low as a meter can measure) continuity from each plug prong to matching receptacle prongs.


I am assuming this is just a simple power strip. For example, not a controller that powers other receptacles when the first one provides power. But to better answer your questions, only a meter (ie from Tru-Value hardware or K-mart) can see anything useful. Even a second supply that works fine in one system can be defective in another. Only meter numbers can define what is really good and what is really defective. Appreciate that a defective supply can still boot a computer. Only numbers will see the defect.


Yours is a classic example of an interesting problem.


Two immediate and more useful facts are performance of that supply 'system' when failing (voltage numbers from those wires). And conductivity (number of ohms) conducted between the three prongs (both at the receptacle end and plug end of that strip).


----------



## Speedskater

A quick side note:

Never measure or even operate a PC computer Power Supply without connecting it to a mother board! Many PC Power Supplies get very unhappy operating without a load and tend to fail.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JoeG44* /forum/post/18024154
> 
> 
> What do you recommend would be the approach for Joe-six pack home owner in surge protection for protecting Home Theater Electronics? -- Knowing that most homeowners are =not= going to improve their present ground earthing.



Those other destructive surges also require earthing. No earth ground means no effective protection. There is no other effective solution. The effective solution is also a least expensive solution.


Power company switching, high voltage distribution falling on local distribution wires, etc. All these are averted by proper earthing.


Are switching appliances causing surges? Then you see light bulbs dimming and brightening. Then you also have a serious human safety threat. If a washing machine or refrigerator are creating surges, then that appliance damages itself first. But if light changes intensity, you should learn why that maybe a human safety threat. Or hire an agent (ie electrician) to do the solution for you.


What is normal power to electronics? An incandescent bulb can dim to 50% intensity - and that is still normal power to any electronics. Yes, within manufacturer specs for normal power. How often do you see intensity change due to other household appliances? If you do, then you should be calling an electrician immediately. A human safety threat may exist. (In one rare case, that defect caused electricity to conduct via a gas meter - house exploded.).


No protector provides protection. But then I am again saying what you should have read previously. It was that important and that simple. Maybe the NIST (US government research agency) says it better:

> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work

> by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can

> be useless if grounding is not done properly.


Joe six-pack can install this himself. So simple that everything is sold in Lowes and Home Depot. That easy. Others who did not yet learn might call an electrician to install it.


If one has so much money for a home-theater, then why can he not afford $1 per appliance for a superior and effective solution? Any kludge solution will not be effective AND often costs tens or 100 times more money.


Proper earthing and protectors should be standard for all homes. Since surge protection is transistor safety - not human safety - then no codes require it.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Speedskater* /forum/post/18024564
> 
> 
> Never measure or even operate a PC computer Power Supply without connecting it to a mother board! Many PC Power Supplies get very unhappy operating without a load and tend to fail.



Some power supplies will operate without a load. Others will not. Depends on the design (and defined in numeric specs). But a supply with or without a load will never be damaged. One can literally short all power supply outputs together and apply power. Even that must never damage any supply.


Intel specs even list how large the wire must be to do shorting - with no damage.


Little useful is learned by powering a supply without load. A defective power supply with no load can appear perfectly good. This is also why power supply testers are useless. A defective power supply is best identified with maximum load. For consumers, that means a supply remains fully connected to everything inside the computer.


A power supply must never be damaged by the load (or no load). And a power supply must never cause damage to other computer parts. Each were industry standards even 40 years ago - long before an IBM PC even existed.


----------



## JoeG44




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/18024567
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Joe six-pack can install this himself. So simple that everything is sold in Lowes and Home Depot. That easy. Others who did not yet learn might call an electrician to install it....



Install what? And everything is? What kind of devices/parts are you referring to at Home Depot / Lowes?


Thanks in advance....


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JoeG44* /forum/post/18024854
> 
> 
> Install what? And everything is? What kind of devices/parts are you referring to at Home Depot / Lowes?



That was posted previously. Upgrade earthing to meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code (details posted previously). Do nothing to any wires inside the house. Earth a 'whole house' protector or connect that utility wire directly to ground as defined previously.


Even listed were "responsible manufacturers" who provide effective protectors. Numbers that any minimally sized protector must meet. And other important details for both 'meeting' and 'exceeding' code.


Important facts were provided long ago - somewhere at the start of this discussion.


----------



## JoeG44




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/18024945
> 
> 
> That was posted previously. Upgrade earthing to meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code (details posted previously). Do nothing to any wires inside the house. Earth a 'whole house' protector or connect that utility wire directly to ground as defined previously.
> 
> 
> Even listed were "responsible manufacturers" who provide effective protectors. Numbers that any minimally sized protector must meet. And other important details for both 'meeting' and 'exceeding' code.
> 
> 
> Important facts were provided long ago - somewhere at the start of this discussion.




I've re-read the thread -- the closest you got was a whole house protector by Hammer Cutler(Eaton). Can you provide a link or part number of this suggested protector? Thanks in advance.


----------



## Hk Chuck

 http://www.stopsurges.com/CUTLER-HAM...CHSPCHSR4P.htm 



Try this link it looks like it could be the one you are interested in. Just remember,

"Google is your friend" and you can find almost anything.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JoeG44* /forum/post/18025332
> 
> 
> I've re-read the thread -- the closest you got was a whole house protector by Hammer Cutler(Eaton). Can you provide a link or part number of this suggested protector? Thanks in advance.



Listed were more responsible companies such as Square D, General Electric, Intermatic, Leviton, and others. Also listed were requirements for effective protectors such as 50,000 amps, and a dedicated wire to make earthing. Posted was how that wire must be routed. And cited was the Cutler-Hammer product sold in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.


Makes no sense to list model numbers. Numbers change. Too many effective protectors to list. Supply house may provide something different.


Ask for their 'whole house' protector. Then view spec numbers. Provided were how to rate a protector. More current means a longer life expectancy. But then I believe that also was explained.


Or just go to Lowes, et al to buy that previously noted protector for less than $50.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JoeG44* /forum/post/18025332
> 
> 
> I've re-read the thread -- the closest you got was a whole house protector by Hammer Cutler(Eaton). Can you provide a link or part number of this suggested protector? Thanks in advance.



While the whole house units identified here can provide some protection. They are nothing more than a few MOV's attached to a circuit board for protection. You would better off ensuring your grounding system is adequate, and then research/obtain a better suppression unit which provides decent protection.


I have attached a picture of a Square D unit sold at Lowes and Home Depot or ??? which I use for demonstration purposes.


----------



## Home2stay

Agree with everything said










Here's which way I went

I have a 50" Plasma, DVR, AV Recv and BluRay in liv room

32" LCD and DVR in Bed


I went with a Whole House Surge Pro on the main panel and I use APC/UPS' near the equipment. the TV and DVR are on the Bat/surge backup and the AVR and BR are on the Surge only side


I run a whole house Generator [not auto]

If we have a power failure while watching, this will net me about 10 mins to get GenSet up and running, while UPS provides stable power to shut down. If others are DVR owners as well you can understand the issues with the reboot and guide reloading


I don't think anybody should get the impression that a UPS is designed for continueos use, just as a means to safely shut down/save


My only concern is if the UPS surge joule protection is enough at around 350-400.

As most state, you never want to run a SurgePro off a UPS

but APC's only concern about running a UPS Off a SP is if the SP recepticals are being used and drawing clean power going to the UPS?


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Home2stay* /forum/post/18128518
> 
> 
> My only concern is if the UPS surge joule protection is enough at around 350-400.



Where does that UPS even claim protection in its numeric specs?


A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. 1 joules or 1000 joules too close to the appliance and too far from earth ground will earth that energy where? Most often destructively via the appliance. Ineffective because wire impedance means it has virtually no earthing. Earth ground is not safety ground.


Even the manufacturer does not even claim effective protection. Those 'near zero' 350 joules is enough to claim 100% protection subjectively in sales brochures. Not enough and too far from earth ground to do effective protection. Your UPS does not claim and is not for surge protection.


Due to simplicity of most UPSes, sometimes generator noise causes a UPS to remain in battery backup mode. If you have not tested this, then you probably should. When generator is on (especially when lightly loaded and when heavily loaded), will that UPS switch back to AC mains power? Or remain in battery backup mode running down the battery?


----------



## Home2stay

APC specs
http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/K...6PMZ_R2_EN.pdf 


No issues with grounding, should be propper

4-5' under panel, solid copper, direct to earth rod


Not sure on the Genset, but It is decent quality and I think it was the proper sine wave. I did research years ago and use the UPS for 'soft offs' and the Genset at full RPM but only minimum required loads


What is your take on using the UPS off of a high quality SP, IF SP has no used recepticals??


PIC of the whole house panel gard in case anyone was wondering


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Home2stay* /forum/post/18133081
> 
> 
> No issues with grounding, should be propper
> 
> 4-5' under panel, solid copper, direct to earth rod ...
> 
> 
> What is your take on using the UPS off of a high quality SP, IF SP has no used recepticals??
> 
> 
> PIC of the whole house panel gard in case anyone was wondering



APC specs say near zero protection. That unit has specs similar to this one. A 120 volt output for it is two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. That is a stepped sine wave. That is considered ideal and clean power to electronics. And may be harmful to other electrical devices.


Why waste money on a high quality SP that sells for $25 or $150. That is nothing more than a $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts. How far from the SP is that earth ground rod? 20 feet? 50 feet? No earth ground means no effective protection. Which explains why a plug-in SP claims no protection in its numeric specs.


The same SP circuit is already inside that UPS. UPS powered from a SP power strip means more money for virtually no change.


Again, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. 1 joules or 1000 joules too close to the appliance and too far from earth ground will earth that energy where? Most often destructively via the appliance. Ineffective because wire impedance means it has virtually no earthing. This posted paragraph repeated again because you many not have grasped its significance.


From the picture, it appears to be an Intermatic 'whole house' protector that is rated for just under 50,000 amps. Assuming the ground wire is properly installed (ie no sharp wire bends, separated from other wires, not inside metallic conduit, etc), then you probably have effective protection. That cable wire must also make the same short (no sharp wire bends, etc) earth connection. Ground is not apparent in the pictures.


The best power strip for the dollar has one critically important 15 amp circuit breaker and no protector parts.


----------



## sphinx99

I wanted to ask if I can get by with a couple of UPS units to solve my problem.


I'm renting. No "whole house" stuff, please.


I'm not so worried about lightning strikes.


I am worried about the power flickering on and off which happens somewhat regularly. Sometimes there are brownouts. Sometimes it goes out for a second or two, then back on, then back off, two or three times in quick succession. I think sometimes there are spikes that damage things; I have a couple of devices that have gone dead after a flicker episode.


I'd like to put my more valuable equipment on regular UPS. At work everything is on APC SmartUPS units. I can buy these things at very low cost. Will they be sufficient to prevent damage from the symptoms I described?


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sphinx99* /forum/post/18389671
> 
> 
> I'm not so worried about lightning strikes.
> 
> I am worried about the power flickering on and off which happens somewhat regularly. Sometimes there are brownouts. Sometimes it goes out for a second or two, then back on, then back off, two or three times in quick succession. I think sometimes there are spikes that damage things; ...



That is not a spike. Brownouts are a voltage drop. Surges are spikes that must overwhelm hundreds and thousands of volt protection already inside appliances. Two completely different electrical anomalies.


Voltage variation is harmful to refrigerators, air conditioners, and washing machines - motorized appliances. Therefore the utility must keep variations close to 5%.


Normal voltage to electronics is when incandescent lamps dim even to 50% intensity. Electronics have always been required to be that robust. And international design standards state that all low voltages must cause no damage. A 1970 design standard was this blunt in charts. The entire low voltage are (from 120 volts down to zero) has this phrase in capital letters: "No Damage Region".


If utility voltages are dropping that low, then you need the UPS on refrigerator and other motorized appliances.


Now, view the output of a typical 120 volt UPS. Two 200 volts square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. This power can be harmful to power strip protectors and small electric motors. Since electronics are so robust, even that 'dirty' electricity is ideal power to every electronics. Again, electronics have always been required to be that robust.


So what are you trying to protect from? The UPS has only one purpose. To provide temporary power when voltage drops this low - incandescent bulbs at less than 50% intensity.


Is power loss harmful? Power loss from the power switch, yanking the plug, or a neighborhood blackout is (to electronics) exactly same. For example, when does every disk drive first learn about power off? When it sees DC power dropping which is long (milliseconds) after AC power is lost. Disk drives are never informed in advance that power will turn off. To every disk drive, all power offs appear exactly same.


So again, which component needs protection from power cycling? Power loss and low voltage is only destructive to electronics in urban myths. Even lesser voltage drops are harmful to motorized appliances which is why utilities maintain voltage or completely cut off power.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sphinx99* /forum/post/18389671
> 
> 
> At work everything is on APC SmartUPS units. I can buy these things at very low cost. Will they be sufficient to prevent damage from the symptoms I described?



UPSes are made so cheap that a replacement battery may cost as much as the entire UPS. A spike too tiny to harm an electronic power supply can sometimes destroy that UPS power supply. It is electricity. That spike confronts both simultaneously. The UPS does nothing for hardware protection. Does not even claim that protection in numeric specs.


A UPS is made as cheap as possible to only provide temporary power during a blackout. Time to save data. A UPS inside every laptop performs same functions. But a majority have heard myths - did not first read spec numbers. Therefore assume a UPS somehow 'cleans' power. Good. What does it 'clean'?


'Dirtiest' electricity seen by the appliance? Numbers in the previous post. A UPS in battery backup mode - 200 volt square waves... Even Intel ATX specs required computers to withstand 1000 volts spikes without damage.


That UPS built as cheap as possible to perform one function - provide temporary power during a blackout. To provide extremely 'dirty' power that can be harmful to small electric motors and is ideal for electronics. Because it is made a cheap as possible.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sphinx99* /forum/post/18389671
> 
> 
> I wanted to ask if I can get by with a couple of UPS units to solve my problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You probably don't need the UPS units. I would look into the situation below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I am worried about the power flickering on and off which happens somewhat regularly. Sometimes there are brownouts. Sometimes it goes out for a second or two, then back on, then back off, two or three times in quick succession. I think sometimes there are spikes that damage things; I have a couple of devices that have gone dead after a flicker episode.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This description sounds like the operation of a utility recloser. A recloser is typically installed on the overhead medium voltage system to 'clear' feeder faults by opening and closing a number of times to try and burn any offending material free (material = tree branch, small animal, etc.). If the material can not be burned away, the recloser is generally programmed to 'lock-out' and drop the downstream feeder power. I would contact the local utility to determine the cause of multiple operations of the recloser. It is probably a utility problem and needs to be mitigated by them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I'd like to put my more valuable equipment on regular UPS. At work everything is on APC SmartUPS units. I can buy these things at very low cost. Will they be sufficient to prevent damage from the symptoms I described?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


If you feel safer installing a UPS for some of your equipment, then do it. You probably don't need one for the majority of electronic equipment though.


----------



## Home2stay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sphinx99* /forum/post/18389671
> 
> 
> I wanted to ask if I can get by with a couple of UPS units to solve my problem.
> 
> 
> I'm renting. No "whole house" stuff, please.
> 
> 
> I'm not so worried about lightning strikes.
> 
> 
> I am worried about the power flickering on and off which happens somewhat regularly. Sometimes there are brownouts. Sometimes it goes out for a second or two, then back on, then back off, two or three times in quick succession. I think sometimes there are spikes that damage things; I have a couple of devices that have gone dead after a flicker episode.
> 
> 
> I'd like to put my more valuable equipment on regular UPS. At work everything is on APC SmartUPS units. I can buy these things at very low cost. Will they be sufficient to prevent damage from the symptoms I described?



Like what the others have said, but

If your talking a DVR [didital video recorder]

100% absolutley, get one

Even the smallest voltage change can send it off and you can loose your guide data and recordings


I like the APC with the digital display [I think ES1300 and up]

A 2 day storm gave me the same issues you describe, looked at the display and showed 9 events, can hear it click on and off,on my smaller 550 but doesn't have display, never even noticed any picture glitches at all on either set


----------



## b_scott

looking at this one for my home theater:

http://www.amazon.com/APC-Back-UPS-W...d=L5CWNB74KCZE 


it's the RS model APC. Will be hooking up my 50" Pio, Elite A/V Receiver, Tivo Premiere, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii, Docsis 3.0 Modem, and Wireless Router.


Any thoughts? Seems like the best for the money. I just want my system to keep running through a power dip or spike. If the power goes out completely for awhile and I'm home, I can shut down gracefully. My Tivo will then still have lots of power to keep recording.


----------



## Home2stay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *b_scott* /forum/post/18440982
> 
> 
> Any thoughts? Seems like the best for the money. I just want my system to keep running through a power dip or spike. If the power goes out completely for awhile and I'm home, I can shut down gracefully. My Tivo will then still have lots of power to keep recording.



The only issue would be if you were running all or most of them at once

If you spike over the 800 watts, the "overage" alarm will beep


My 50 Panny Plaz, Denon AVR and DVR will sometimes hit the 700's [have the 1300/750w] and set the alarm. with brightly lit scenes and high volumes


If AV equip is on, then would only have a few mins? of backup

If all off, probably close to an hr


----------



## Stereodude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sphinx99* /forum/post/18389671
> 
> 
> I'd like to put my more valuable equipment on regular UPS. At work everything is on APC SmartUPS units. I can buy these things at very low cost. Will they be sufficient to prevent damage from the symptoms I described?



Good question. I use SmartUPS units on my servers in the basement. I have been meaning to add a non-MOV based surge protector (SurgeX / Zero Surge / Brick Wall) ahead of them.


----------



## Stereodude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/18389829
> 
> 
> UPSes are made so cheap that a replacement battery may cost as much as the entire UPS. A spike too tiny to harm an electronic power supply can sometimes destroy that UPS power supply. It is electricity. That spike confronts both simultaneously. The UPS does nothing for hardware protection. Does not even claim that protection in numeric specs.
> 
> 
> A UPS is made as cheap as possible to only provide temporary power during a blackout. Time to save data. A UPS inside every laptop performs same functions. But a majority have heard myths - did not first read spec numbers. Therefore assume a UPS somehow 'cleans' power. Good. What does it 'clean'?
> 
> 
> 'Dirtiest' electricity seen by the appliance? Numbers in the previous post. A UPS in battery backup mode - 200 volt square waves... Even Intel ATX specs required computers to withstand 1000 volts spikes without damage.
> 
> 
> That UPS built as cheap as possible to perform one function - provide temporary power during a blackout. To provide extremely 'dirty' power that can be harmful to small electric motors and is ideal for electronics. Because it is made a cheap as possible.



Clearly you're not at all familiar with the APC SmartUPS products. Perhaps you should have taken a minute or two to familiarize yourself with them prior to going off on a totally off base rant that doesn't apply in the least to them.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Stereodude* /forum/post/18443946
> 
> 
> Clearly you're not at all familiar with the APC SmartUPS products.



That post identified APC products - using facts based in various APC specs. Did you forget to post spec numbers to support your claim? Yes, because those numbers do not exist. Yes, because you forgot to do what only responsible posters do. That APC provides near-zero hardware protection. Just large enough that a majority will believe it is 100% protection.


APC UPS made so cheaply that a replacement battery may cost as much as the entire UPS. Post spec numbers if you have doubts. You cannot post what APC will not even claim.


View specs for APC Back-UPS RS, 865 Watts. Surge protection is how many joules? 340 means only 115 and never more than 230 joules do protection. How does 115 joules absorb a typically destructive surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. What APC says in numbers: a surge too tiny to damage appliances may destroy that APC protector circuit.


No problem. Ill informed consumers believe protector failure is normal. Reality: properly sized MOV protectors do not fail. APC numbers say surges too small to even harm appliances can destroy that APC protection circuit. Why does APC make those joules numbers so hard to find? Because that APC provides near-zero protection. If you don't read numbers, then propaganda can promote hardware protection myths. Obviously, so many never read the numbers. Count how many recommend that mythical hardware protection.


APC's spec numbers say it only does one thing - provide temporary power during blackouts and extreme sags. Nothing more. Near-zero hardware protection means APC can claim 100% surge protection in sales brochures. Propaganda and hearsay to Stereodude somehow is a fact? He is not the only one. Quoted are APC's numbers - near zero protection.


----------



## Stereodude

Keep on grinding that axe. You'll get it sharp sooner or later.










I didn't say anything about the surge protection capability of the SmartUPS units. I took exception to your rampant mischaracterization of the units themselves.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/18389829
> 
> 
> UPSes are made so cheap that a replacement battery may cost as much as the entire UPS.



False. For example, a SUA1000 cost ~$375 shipped new. Replacement batteries are less than $100 shipped. Those are not almost the same.


> Quote:
> A UPS in battery backup mode - 200 volt square waves...



Also false. The SmartUPS units have true sine wave output.


> Quote:
> That UPS built as cheap as possible to perform one function - provide temporary power during a blackout. To provide extremely 'dirty' power that can be harmful to small electric motors and is ideal for electronics. Because it is made a cheap as possible.



So, basically you're just making things up. The SmartUPS units are not a bare minimum UPS. They do not provide extremely 'dirty' power. They're enterprise grade products. They're not made as cheaply as possible.


----------



## b_scott

somehow this thread didn't show in my subscribed threads the past few days. I went ahead and bought the 1500VA one yesterday, it's at home waiting for me. I'll let you guys know how it stands up.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Stereodude* /forum/post/18454744
> 
> 
> The SmartUPS units have true sine wave output.



UPS that outputs a true sine wave also lists a Total Harmonic Distortion number or something equivalent. A 120 volt UPS that outputs 200 volts square waves is also called a sine wave. And yes, they did not lie. They just forgot to include numbers for how dirty that sine wave really is.


If a SmartUPS is truly a sine wave output, then you have and post numbers for that sine wave. Making claims without numbers is how lies are created. If it is truly a sine wave, then it says so in the spec numbers. Where are those numbers?


BTW, why is the dirtiest UPS power also perfectly ideal? All electronics are so robust that a 270 volt spike sometimes seen from UPS outputs is also perfectly ideal to 120 volt electronics. UPS power that can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. But ideal to electronics because electronics are required to be so robust.


----------



## Stereodude

You really are clueless... A square wave is a sine wave?










> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *APC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> APC's Back-UPS®, Back-UPS Office®, Back-UPS Pro®, and PowerCell® all output a "stepped-approximated" sine wave when the unit is On Battery. While this kind of waveform is ideal for computers and computer-related equipment, it may not be compatible for other types of loads like motor loads. If you are using non-computer loads with one of the above-mentioned UPSs, consult the manufacturer's specifications to determine if the equipment can run off of a "stepped wave". If it can't, then it will require a UPS that outputs a pure sine wave when On Battery. *APC UPS models that do output a Pure Sine Wave include: Smart-UPS®, Matrix-UPS®, and the Symmetra® Power Array®.*



Here's a scope plot of the waveform that comes out of an unloaded SU700:

 


That's the oddest looking 200V square wave I've ever seen.


Here's the waveform with a load on the UPS:

 


It's still a really odd looking 200V square wave.


So now that we've completely proven you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, it's time for you to put up or shut up.


kthxbye


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Stereodude* /forum/post/18457217
> 
> 
> It's still a really odd looking 200V square wave.



If output is when the UPS is not plugged into the wall, then reactive loading creates distortion in the 'loaded' UPS picture. No distortion exists. Did you unplug the UPS during your test? Those waveforms are typical of a UPS connected to AC mains.


Meanwhile, you intentionally distort what I said so that you could insult me. You are posting so much like the typically naive poster who only posts insults - and still refuses to post manufacture spec numbers. I said *typical* UPS. And did so without insult to what is becoming obvious only a technicians intelligence level. Or maybe you could learn to post without insults. Typical UPS is not $300+.


What you ignored was my point. All electronics are so robust that the ***typical*** UPS output (that is often a square wave) is the best electricity to all electronics. Maybe the logic was too complicated. But you must read and understand the entire paragraph to grasp the point. All electronics are so robust that even the ///typical/// UPS output (even with a spike of up to 270 volts) is ideal power to electronics. Harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. But even square waves are perfectly ideal for electronics. Do you think you might grasp the entire paragraph rather than taking one sentence out of context?


Your output is typical of all UPSes (even the ***typical UPS***) when its power cord is connected to AC mains. Reactive loading from a computer would have distorted top of the AC waveform. It didn't. So your experiment is suspect.


Where is that UPS spec number for sine waves? UPS that actually does 'pure sine waves' provides those numbers. Where is that number? Why do you do complicated pictures when the manufacturer's spec numbers means so much more - and is so easy? Where is the spec number for that UPS? Why are spec numbers, routine from better UPS manufacturers, not provided with your UPS?


Further reality. That UPS and those pictures do not demonstrate any surge protection. 'Dirty' output from a typical UPS makes this point: even 'dirty' UPS power is perfectly ideal for electronics BECAUSE electronics are so robust. The effective protector (or UPS) is about protection from the rare surge that can overwhelm protection inside every appliance.


Why are you arguing about pure sine waves? That was not the point. The point: electronics are so robust that 'dirty' UPS power (even with a 270 volt spike) is ideal power to electronics. And those pictures are unnecessary if you only posted manufacturer’s THD numbers. Why no THD numbers? Why do you again quote where lies are legal - a sales brochure? Honest posters only quote numeric specs - not sales propaganda. Maybe because those numbers also say nothing about surge protection? Did you forget the topic again? Or should I say near-zero (mythical) protection - because that is what manufacturer spec numbers say.


----------



## Stereodude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/18461141
> 
> 
> If output is when the UPS is not plugged into the wall, then reactive loading creates distortion in the 'loaded' UPS picture. No distortion exists. Did you unplug the UPS during your test? Those waveforms are typical of a UPS connected to AC mains.



They're not my tests, but yes they were unplugged from the mains.


> Quote:
> Meanwhile, you intentionally distort what I said so that you could insult me.



I'm not intentionally distorting anything. You said things that were blatantly false and are now trying to get into semantics instead of man'ing up and admitting you were wrong.


> Quote:
> You are posting so much like the typically naive poster who only posts insults



You put your own foot in your mouth. I just pointed it out.


> Quote:
> and still refuses to post manufacture spec numbers.



APC doesn't list THD for the SmartUPS units. I'm not refusing to post anything.


> Quote:
> I said *typical* UPS. And did so without insult to what is becoming obvious only a technicians intelligence level. Or maybe you could learn to post without insults. Typical UPS is not $300+.



You did not say *typical*. You quoted a section specifically referring to APC SmartUPS and went a little misinformed tirade about them.


> Quote:
> Your output is typical of all UPSes (even the ***typical UPS***) when its power cord is connected to AC mains. Reactive loading from a computer would have distorted top of the AC waveform. It didn't. So your experiment is suspect.



The results are not suspect. You just don't like them because they disprove your mistake filled diatribe.


> Quote:
> Where is that UPS spec number for sine waves?



You'll have to ask APC.


> Quote:
> UPS that actually does 'pure sine waves' provides those numbers.



Apparently not. These do pure sines waves, and yet don't provide a THD number.


> Quote:
> Where is that number?



Ask APC.


> Quote:
> Why do you do complicated pictures when the manufacturer's spec numbers means so much more - and is so easy?



Because I have pictures proving the shape of the output waveform, but I don't have a spec that APC doesn't give.


> Quote:
> Where is the spec number for that UPS?



Ask APC.


> Quote:
> Why are spec numbers, routine from better UPS manufacturers, not provided with your UPS?



Ask APC.


> Quote:
> Why are you arguing about pure sine waves?



Because you made factual errors when describing the output of APC SmartUPS units.


> Quote:
> That was not the point.



Then you shouldn't have made it one.


> Quote:
> And those pictures are unnecessary if you only posted manufacturer’s THD numbers.



I'm glad you think they're unnecessary. They still prove you wrong.


> Quote:
> Why no THD numbers?



Ask APC.


> Quote:
> Why do you again quote where lies are legal - a sales brochure? Honest posters only quote numeric specs - not sales propaganda.



Except they're not lies or propaganda as I've proven.


> Quote:
> Maybe because those numbers also say nothing about surge protection?



I never said they did.


> Quote:
> Did you forget the topic again?



No, but apparently you did when you started spouting off lies about the waveform that comes out of the back of a UPS and are now unhappy someone pointed it out.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Stereodude* /forum/post/18463711
> 
> 
> They're not my tests, but yes they were unplugged from the mains.



If not your tests, then how do you know that UPS was unplugged? You don’t. Waveform says it was not unplugged. Without basic electrical knowledge, you did not even see what should have been obbious. You simply posted only what someone told you to believe.


Then posted nonsense with disparaging comments. And still not post even one manufacturer spec number. "Go ask APC" simply confirms you cannot even read specification numbers. You cannot post what you do not even understand. So you reply nasty.


Output from a typical UPS is some of the ‘dirtiest’ power an appliance will see. A typical 120 volt UPS may output two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. See? Numbers.


Hearsay describe this as clean power when basics are not learned. It was called a modified sine wave, a stepped sine wave, or some other sine wave. Then the naïve relabel it as a 'pure' sine wave. Why does APC not provide specs such as THD? Then everyone would know it is not a pure sine wave. Why did you not notice the missing THD number? Electricity so 'dirty' as to be harmful to small electric motors or power strip protectors (which is why they recommend no power strip protector on a UPS output). Even that electricity is ideal power – because electronics are so robust.


Appliances already have protection so superior that a 120 volt UPS with square waves and a 200+ volt spike is not harmful.


Stereodude was asked to supply manufacturer spec numbers. He could not even do that. He has no idea what those numbers mean. So he does what the naive routinely do. He says, "Ask APC." How curious. APC does not even claim what Stereodude posted. APC does not even claim protection from typically destructive surges. Only Stereodude invented that myth. A myth provided without any numbers. No numbers is the first indication of a lie. So he gets nasty to mask those missing numbers and his missing technical knowledge. He did not even do those sine wave pictures. But somehow knows how they were taken. Nasty because he backup anything with citations, manufacturer specs, and fundamental numbers. He does what so many myth purveyors do. Attack the messenger when caught lying.


The OP asked for protector recommendations. A majority without any electrical knowledge will recommend profit centers - ie power strips. A $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts selling for $40 or $150. Or recommend a UPS that claims near-zero protection.


An effective protector always and only does one thing. Where does energy dissipate? An effective protector always makes a short connection to earth. Essential to protection is that always required - always - short connection to single point earth ground. Then massive protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed. Nothing new. Engineers knew this even 100 years ago before advertising and myths replaced science and knowledge. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


----------



## Stereodude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/18465212
> 
> 
> If not your tests, then how do you know that UPS was unplugged? You don’t. Waveform says it was not unplugged. Without basic electrical knowledge, you did not even see what should have been obbious. You simply posted only what someone told you to believe.



Sometimes when you're stuck in a deep hole it's best to stop digging. It is most definitely unplugged.







link 


> Quote:
> Then posted nonsense with disparaging comments. And still not post even one manufacturer spec number. "Go ask APC" simply confirms you cannot even read specification numbers. You cannot post what you do not even understand. So you reply nasty.



Again, APC doesn't not list THD. You have a total and utter reading comprehension problem. For those people following along at home and laughing hysterically at Westom's hitting rock bottom and starting to dig. Here's a link to APC's specs. Note the lack of a THD spec.


> Quote:
> Output from a typical UPS is some of the ‘dirtiest’ power an appliance will see. A typical 120 volt UPS may output two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. See? Numbers.



Still not true. Most output a stepped square wave like this:

 


However, I bet if you keep repeating your lies enough someone else might believe them. Clearly it's working for you.










> Quote:
> Hearsay describe this as clean power when basics are not learned. It was called a modified sine wave, a stepped sine wave, or some other sine wave. Then the naïve relabel it as a 'pure' sine wave. Why does APC not provide specs such as THD? Then everyone would know it is not a pure sine wave.



You're still wrong. I've proven it and you've got your head in the sand. APC says , "Smart-UPS feature a 16-segment LED display, extended range automatic voltage regulation (AVR), and pure sine wave output on battery" Yup, clearly I made up the 'pure' part.










> Quote:
> Stereodude was asked to supply manufacturer spec numbers.



I can't give a THD spec that APC doesn't give. I've linked to the specs that APC does give.


> Quote:
> He could not even do that. He has no idea what those numbers mean.



I know what Total Harmonic Distortion is.


> Quote:
> So he does what the naive routinely do. He says, "Ask APC."



Yes, it's naive to expect the person demanding unlisted information to call the manufacturer and request it.










> Quote:
> How curious.



The only thing curious here is how your able to be so blind to reality.


> Quote:
> APC does not even claim what Stereodude posted.


 APC claims a pure sine wave output . I've showed the graph of it. I see you're still unable to read...


> Quote:
> Only Stereodude invented that myth.



Ahh... the "myth" that's not a myth. The same one that I didn't invent either


> Quote:
> A myth provided without any numbers.



Numbers or not, it's still not a myth. Unless you've redefined "myth" to mean a fact you're clueless about.


> Quote:
> No numbers is the first indication of a lie.



Nah, words coming from you are the first indication of a lie. You're the one who hasn't provided any proof or evidence.


> Quote:
> So he gets nasty to mask those missing numbers and his missing technical knowledge.



Yes, clearly you're the one with the numbers and all the knowledge. AVSforum is lucky to have you!!!










> Quote:
> He did not even do those sine wave pictures. But somehow knows how they were taken.



Because unlike you I know how to read and comprehend. I read how the measurements were taken. I have no doubt you'll shortly claim that Jesse Kovach didn't know what he was doing though.


> Quote:
> Nasty because he backup anything with citations, manufacturer specs, and fundamental numbers. He does what so many myth purveyors do. Attack the messenger when caught lying.



The only person lying here is *YOU!* You have shown an innate ability to lie, misrepresent, misunderstand, misconstrue, deny, and pretend. Keep up the good work. I'm pretty sure you have a future in politics.


----------



## b_scott

wow.


so, haven't plugged it in yet. Actually I think I'll leave it boxed until we move in two weeks, easier to move that way.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Stereodude* /forum/post/18465654
> 
> 
> You have shown an innate ability to lie, misrepresent, misunderstand, misconstrue, deny, and pretend. Keep up the good work. I'm pretty sure you have a future in politics.



Those with the least education will then post nasty and angry replies. Especially to deny falling for a scam.


That stepped sine wave - sometimes called a modified sine wave - is nothing more than a sum of sine waves. Obvious from Fourier Series taught in high school calculus. Since the manufacturer hopes nobody will bother to ask damning questions, then sales brochures relabeled a "stepped square wave" as some type of sine wave.


Technically, they are not lying. Technically, had Stereodude learn this stuff, then that modified sine wave is a traditional output from most UPSes. AND that output is considered perfectly ideal electricity to electronics. Again, electronics are required to be that robust as to make dirtiest electricity from a UPS irrelevant. BTW, view his stepped output. That 120 volt output is peaking at 300 volts. And yes, electronics are required to be so robust as to make that 300 volt peak irrelevant.


Why can Stereodude not provide THD numbers? Any UPS manufacturer that had a 'pure sine wave' output would post those THD numbers in the largest font possible. APC does not provide THD numbers because a 'pure sine wave' is not that 'pure'. So dirty as to best not provide the THD number. Only pure enough to get people trained by sales brochures to *believe*. And to be angry when reality arrives.


b_scott - your UPS has only one function. To provides temporary power during a blackout or extreme brownout. Extreme brownout is incandescent bulbs at less than 50% intensity. All electronics are required to work perfectly normal and ideal even when bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Electronics are required to be that robust.


Low voltage does not cause hardware failure. That UPS has one function - to protect unsaved data. Surge protection? It claims near zero protection. See its joules number. Near zero. And protection from a type of surge that typically does not cause hardware damage.


The OP was asking for effective surge protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That UPS does not claim protection. And does not have that dedicated wire for the always necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth. It cannot connect destructive energy to earth. So how does it make surge energy magically disappear? It doesn't. The UPS is promoted by myths. Others who were scammed will post nasty replies - and no relevant spec numbers.


How robust are your entertainment electronics? See that stepped sine wave? Even peaking at 300 volts. Even that is perfectly ideal power because all electronics contain massive surge protection. Protection that may be overwhelmed if you do not earth a destructive surge BEFORE it can enter the building. Only more responsible companies provide effective solutions with the always required short connection to earth. A superior solution that also costs about $1 per protected appliance. Effective because it does make that short connection to single point earth ground. And is not recommended by demeaning slurs.


----------



## Stereodude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/18467852
> 
> 
> Those with the least education will then post nasty and angry replies. Especially to deny falling for a scam.
> 
> 
> That stepped sine wave - sometimes called a modified sine wave - is nothing more than a sum of sine waves. Obvious from Fourier Series taught in high school calculus. Since the manufacturer hopes nobody will bother to ask damning questions, then sales brochures relabeled a "stepped square wave" as some type of sine wave.
> 
> 
> Technically, they are not lying. Technically, had Stereodude learn this stuff, then that modified sine wave is a traditional output from most UPSes. AND that output is considered perfectly ideal electricity to electronics. Again, electronics are required to be that robust as to make dirtiest electricity from a UPS irrelevant. BTW, view his stepped output. That 120 volt output is peaking at 300 volts. And yes, electronics are required to be so robust as to make that 300 volt peak irrelevant.
> 
> 
> Why can Stereodude not provide THD numbers? Any UPS manufacturer that had a 'pure sine wave' output would post those THD numbers in the largest font possible. APC does not provide THD numbers because a 'pure sine wave' is not that 'pure'. So dirty as to best not provide the THD number. Only pure enough to get people trained by sales brochures to *believe*. And to be angry when reality arrives.



Ok, lets start really simple...


Here are waveforms captured by an independent 3rd party. link 


Here's what comes from straight from the wall from *Potomac Electric Power Company*:

 


Here's what comes from an *APC SmartUPS 700 running on batteries* with an 80% load (big computer and monitor):

 


Oddly enough. They're nearly the same with the waveform from the UPS looking slightly better.


One of two things is true. You tell me which.


1) Potomac Electric Power Company is sending out to all their customers what you call a "modified sine wave" as verified by an independent 3rd party. The APC SmartUPS 700 also outputs a "modified sine wave".


2) The APC SmartUPS 700 was tested by an independent 3rd party to output a sine wave equivalent to what comes from Potomac Electric Power Company (and not a modified sine wave).


I look forward to your refusal to answer this simple question and further talking in circles.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Stereodude* /forum/post/18468972
> 
> 
> Ok, lets start really simple...



You're going to have to go to his house with your UPS and 'scope and show him.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Stereodude* /forum/post/18468972
> 
> 
> I look forward to your refusal to answer this simple question and further talking in circles.



Why do you continue to argue the irrelevant? Your own stepped sine wave demonstrates what all electronics must withstand without damage. 120 volt electronic designs even make 'dirty' power from typical UPS irrelevant. Why would anyone waste $500 on a 'pure sine wave' UPS when all electronics call a less than $100 stepped sine wave UPS perfectly ideal power?


You have provided exactly what I am talking about. That stepped sine wave or modified sine wave - electricity that can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors - is ideal power to all electronics. Because electronics are that robust. Stereodude - you proved my point. Why are you pissing over nonsense 'pure' sine waves? When do you get back on something relevant - the topic?


Electronics are so robust that all but the rare and destructive transient is made irrelevant. What protects from a typically destructive transient? No APC or any other plug-in UPS claims that protection. Near zero protector circuit does what? May even be damaged if powered by another UPS. What kind of protection is that? Ineffective.


Hk Chuck demonstrated an example of an effective solution. Thousands exist from so many more responsible companies. A Cutler-Hammer solution even sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Protection essential to even protect bathroom GFCIs and electronics in a stove. Protection that no APC or other plug-in protector does or claims to provide - for how many times more money is that APC?


Waveforms from a typical UPS can even be destructive to power strip protectors. Might even harm another UPS "protector circuit". But is perfectly ideal to electronics because protection already inside electronics is that robust. Electronics protection that can be overwhelmed if one 'whole house' protector is not properly earthed.


----------



## Stereodude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/18469217
> 
> 
> Why do you continue to argue the irrelevant? Your own stepped sine wave demonstrates what all electronics must withstand without damage. 120 volt electronic designs even make 'dirty' power from typical UPS irrelevant. Why would anyone waste $500 on a 'pure sine wave' UPS when all electronics call a less than $100 stepped sine wave UPS perfectly ideal power?
> 
> 
> You have provided exactly what I am talking about. That stepped sine wave or modified sine wave - electricity that can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors - is ideal power to all electronics. Because electronics are that robust. Stereodude - you proved my point. Why are you pissing over nonsense 'pure' sine waves? When do you get back on something relevant - the topic?
> 
> 
> Electronics are so robust that all but the rare and destructive transient is made irrelevant. What protects from a typically destructive transient? No APC or any other plug-in UPS claims that protection. Near zero protector circuit does what? May even be damaged if powered by another UPS. What kind of protection is that? Ineffective.
> 
> 
> Hk Chuck demonstrated an example of an effective solution. Thousands exist from so many more responsible companies. A Cutler-Hammer solution even sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Protection essential to even protect bathroom GFCIs and electronics in a stove. Protection that no APC or other plug-in protector does or claims to provide - for how many times more money is that APC?
> 
> 
> Waveforms from a typical UPS can even be destructive to power strip protectors. Might even harm another UPS "protector circuit". But is perfectly ideal to electronics because protection already inside electronics is that robust. Electronics protection that can be overwhelmed if one 'whole house' protector is not properly earthed.



Thanks... I'll take your refusal to answer the question as an implicit admission that you were wrong about the waveform coming out of the back of APC SmartUPS units. Thanks for conceding the point in your own special way.


As for surge protection, you'll note that I recommended plugging them into a non-MOV based surge protector .


----------



## b_scott




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/18467852
> 
> 
> b_scott - your UPS has only one function. To provides temporary power during a blackout or extreme brownout.



yup, that's what I want it for. Just want it to keep my stuff running during a black/brownout - so if i'm downloading/playing a game online I don't get booted off and have to deal with all that loss. Plus, my Tivo will keep running and recording - it takes 10 minutes to boot up.


----------



## bborzell

I can barely believe that I spent over an hour reading each post in this thread only to discover that there are at least three people here who don't think much about at least one of the others and possibly more.


Whole house surge protection makes sense. Point of use protection might help. If either system is either improperly installed or inadequately grounded, they won't help and might actually hurt. Those are the facts and much of the rest of what has been posted here seems to be about something else altogether.


Are there any moderators out there?


----------



## saumil

Ignorance is a bliss!!


----------



## David Haddad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bborzell* /forum/post/18473965
> 
> 
> Are there any moderators out there?



Yes there are, but someone needs to report a post, we don't read every thread.


Time out.


Edit: I am reopening this as there is some good discussion going on here. But tone down the rhetoric.


----------



## oppopioneer

A AVSForum member who is highly educated on this is BobL. Try to get him over here to explain why MOV's are not recommended.


SurgeX is used by sports stadiums, concert halls, Hollywood movie studios, NASA Hubble Space Telescope and the U.S. Government.


Most sports stadiums made over the last 5 to 7 years in the U.S. use SurgeX. The new Dallas Cowboys Stadium uses SurgeX, so does new Yankee Stadium, every Philadelphia professional sports venue. Carnegie Hall and the Kimmel Center in Philadelphia too. Paramount Studios etc.


It's not allowing me to post links on this thread for some reason. Please Google up: "Dallas Cowboys Stadium SurgeX" and you will see websites showing photos inside the booths of the stadium using SurgeX products.


For anyone to question the legitimacy of SurgeX products I would question their legitimacy and ask are you more educated and knowledgable than the people hired to setup the safety systems for these multi-million dollar projects. Why doesn't all the people who work on the projects above just go into a Best Buy, Walmart, Staples, Office Max and just buy a bunch of mov based products?


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19264680
> 
> 
> SurgeX is used by sports stadiums, concert halls, Hollywood movie studios, NASA Hubble Space Telescope and the U.S. Government.
> 
> 
> Most sports stadiums made over the last 5 to 7 years in the U.S. use SurgeX. The new Dallas Cowboys Stadium uses SurgeX, so does new Yankee Stadium, every Philadelphia professional sports venue. Carnegie Hall and the Kimmel Center in Philadelphia too. Paramount Studios etc.



Are you sure no MOVs are used in these places?


Would you please provide some proof that SurgeX is used to protect the Hubble Telescope.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19264680
> 
> 
> A AVSForum member who is highly educated on this is BobL. Try to get him over here to explain why MOV's are not recommended.



Surgex is a series mode filter. How does a filter stop what three miles of sky could not? It doesn't. A series mode filter is for noise solutions. Surges exceed what is called noise.


Meanwhile, the Surgex also provides a wire that surges use to completely bypass that filter.


The US Air Force defines surge protectors in their training manual including where the protector must be located:

> 15. Surge Protection.

> 15.1. Entering or exiting metallic power, intrusion detection, communication antenna, and instrumentation

> lines must have surge protection sized for lightning surges to reduce transient voltages to a harmless

> level. Install the surge protection as soon as practical where the conductor enters the interior of the

> facility. Devices commonly used for this include metal oxide varistors, gas tube arresters, and

> transzorbs.


Not listed are series mode filters.


The best protector for the dollar is the MOV. And not when used where they provide minimal if any protection such as adjacent to appliances. MOVs are installed so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. MOVs that fail (ie power strip protectors) are undersized protectors that provide no effective protection. That fail to promote sales and myths. MOVs protectors properly installed remain functional after each surge.


MOVs are not used for communication lines due to excessive capacitance. Semiconductor devices are a better choice. But in every case, protection is always about a short connection from wire to earth. Short to earth via a wire. Or via a protector.


MOVs are inside effective surge protectors sold by more responsible companies such as Leviton, Intermatic, Siemens, ABB, Cutler-Hammer (Eaton), and General Electric. But in every case, protection is always about the only thing that absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules - single point earth ground.


The Surgex is supplementary protection. Ineffective if a 'whole house' protector is not properly earthed. What is used in every facility that can never have damage? What is used in rocket launching sites, all telephone switching centers, commercial broadcasting stations, mobile phone towers, nuclear power plants, and munitions dumps? In every case, superior earthing and 'whole house' protectors. What do most never see; then assume the Surgex is protection? Earth ground. If the facility earthing is not sufficient, then the facility has no effective protection - no matter how many Surgexs are purchased.


No protector does protection. Not even the Surgex. Protection is always about how a surge connects to protection - single point earth ground. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A properly earthed MOV protector is effective. Power strip MOV protectors fail to even promote sales and increase profits.


Air Force recommends and uses MOV protectors. And locates them when they will be part of an effective protection system'. What did he not see and therefore not discuss? Single point earth ground - the always required component is in every protection system.


----------



## oppopioneer

Can you show me a failed SurgeX product? There are countless failed mov based surge suppressors and many horror stories online all over the forums and Amazon.com about Panamax, Monster, APC mov systems being destroyed by lightning storms, a common complaint about mov based systems is something like: "Well my Panamax bit the bullet during the lightning storm, I will need to buy another one." That is so common on almost every electronic website forum. For everyone who has had success with a Panamax/Monster mov unit, there are just as many who have had problems with them when you read the complaints and reviews of them.



> Quote:
> MOVs are inside effective surge protectors sold by more responsible companies such as Leviton, Intermatic, Siemens, ABB, Cutler-Hammer (Eaton), and General Electric. But in every case, protection is always about the only thing that absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules - single point earth ground.



Are these companies you listed above make residential units for homes, how many mov's are inside and how much do they charge for them? Is it the same design found in a Panamax, Monster, APC residential unit? The new Dallas Cowboys Stadium uses the SurgeX SX1120RT rack mount unit you can buy the same exact unit and use in your own home for around $600 dollars. Also, what professional sports arena/stadium, concert hall, Hollywood Studio uses a mov based surge eliminator and what is the name of that company? What is the name of the companies that make mov based systems for the Air Force? You can contact SurgeX now and talk to their top management man Martin Dornfeld and he will tell you about the U.S. government using SurgeX technology.


You can contact Martin Dornfeld

Northern Regional Sales Manager

Direct: 267-614-4165


and ask him about all the projects SurgeX is involved in including NASA, U.S. Government, professional sports stadium nation wide, Carnegie Hall, Kimmel Center in Philadelphia etc.


New Dallas Cowboys Stadium uses SurgeX:

http://www.listentech.com/blog/Dalla...lights-Listen/ 


New Yankee Stadium using SurgeX SX2120 surge eliminator and power conditioner:

http://www.soundandcommunications.co...09_03_apps.htm 


Recent installations include: Carnegie Hall, Dallas Cowboys new 2009 Stadium, Yankees Stadium, and The Kimmel Center:

http://www.surgex.com/media/index.html 


SurgeX used by Paramount Studios:

http://surgex.com/news.html 


The SurgeX’s XN120 won the 2010 CEDIA Lifestyles Electronic Award, and also the 2010 Resi Awards (Residential Systems Magazine)

http://www.cedia.net/awards/ 

http://www.residentialsystems.com/article/46668.aspx 


InfoComm - SurgeX vs MOV Suppressors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RixUrc-FRcM 


InfoComm -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmcD635NNPU 


SurgeX Booth CEDIA 2010:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PPxKzLKSrk


----------



## Gizmologist

He has posted the same opinions a hundred times and many engineers have proven him wrong. he posts only his opinions and has no back up so we just let him rant.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/19268472
> 
> 
> He has posted the same opinions a hundred times and many engineers have proven him wrong. he posts only his opinions and has no back up so we just let him rant.



Gizmo, sorry are you refering to me or westom? I'm pretty new here and have very few posts.


----------



## Colm

Read the title, he referred to Westom, not you.


So, where is the proof that SurgeX is used to protect the Hubble Telescope? If you cannot prove your contention, I will just have to consider you a liar and discount anything else you have to say.


I don't doubt that SurgeX is in use in the other places you mentioned. However, I don't believe that there are no MOV based units in use in most, if not all, of those places. If that is your contention, prove it. For one thing, surge protection standards often call for protection at the service entrance, subpanels, and branch circuits. Unless I am mistaken, there is no SurgeX device large enough to do the job if the first two places.


It really doesn't do SurgeX any good to go on a MOV bashing rant. MOVs properly applied provide reliable service for many years. If you think Westom is on the side of typical point-of-use MOV based devices, you haven't read much of what he has posted. SurgeX employees and proponents would do much better to explain how SurgeX accomplishes what it purports to do. Unfortunately, no one has ever done that here that I have seen. And much of the rhetoric has been very detrimental to SurgeX IMHO.


Oh, and I was just wondering, why does at least one SurgeX licensee apparently use MOV based protection in addition to SurgeX technology.


Don't get me wrong, I am just trying to make sense of all the hype there is about surge protection. I have read the SurgeX patents and a lot of other things about surge suppression. My take on it all is that MOV isn't as bad as SurgeX tries to make it out, and SurgeX isn't as good. Of course, it is damn near impossible to get useful information about SurgeX.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19268267
> 
> 
> Can you show me a failed SurgeX product? There are countless failed mov based surge suppressors and many horror stories online all over the forums and Amazon.com about Panamax, Monster, APC mov systems being destroyed by lightning storms, a common complaint about mov based systems is something like: "Well my Panamax bit the bullet during the lightning storm, I will need to buy another one." That is so common on almost every electronic website forum. For everyone who has had success with a Panamax/Monster mov unit, there are just as many who have had problems with them when you read the complaints and reviews of them.



Read what is posted. Reciting salesmen myths without engineering numbers says nothing useful. Those Panamax, Monster, APC, etc protectors do not fail due to MOVs. Each fails because failure gets the naive to recommend it. Those protectors do not even claim effective surge protection. Why are you discussing those 'profit centers'? Those protectors do not have what is always carefully installed in every one of your locations. Single point earthing. And 'whole house' protectors.


Listed were some responsible companies that sell 'whole house' protectors with the 'always required' short connection to earth. MOV protectors sized to even conduct direct lightning strikes harmlessly to earth. Read numeric specifications for even a minimally sized 'whole house' protector. 50,000 amps. A typical lightning strike is 20,000 amps. Don't take my word for it. They are found in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50 - to protect everything inside a house.


What does a 'whole house' protector do? Does it absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? Of course not. Only scam protectors work by absorbing surges. Effective protectors dissipate hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly in earth. And remain functional.


An earthed 'whole house' protector means nobody even knew a surge existed. But that does not get the naive to recommend it. Undersizing a Panamax, APC, Monster, etc gets the naive to recommend something that ... it does not even claim protection in specs.


Problem is not MOVs. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Always. How many joules does the series mode filter absorb? Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. Why do you discuss protection - a protector that must stop and absorb the surge - and not provide those numbers? Because the Surgex - a series mode protector - is ineffective without an earthed 'whole house' protector. What do those facilities use? 'Whole house' protectors connected short to earth. What is the only item always required in every surge protection 'system'? Earthing. Not MOVs. Not Surgex. Earthing.


Either a Surgex does nothing (no earthed 'whole house' protector). Or the Surgex is 'supplementary' protection (eliminates noise) after a surge has been earthed. But again, where are Surgex numbers that claims protection from hundreds of thousands of joules? Good luck. Citing spin made by communication majors and advertising is not a fact. Where are the numbers - always required to have a fact. How does that Surgex absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? Not a rhetorical question. A number located at the top of you next post.


'Whole house' protectors are routinely installed in homes where effective protection exists. Are available from every one of those responsible companies - and from so many others. Effective protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. Is sized (50,000 amps) to even earth direct lightning strikes and remain functional. Means nobody even knew a surge existed. Notice numbers - ie 50,000 amps.


A 'whole house' protector is necessary to protect a Surgex and 'profit center' protectors from APC, Tripplite, Monster, etc. It is not about MOVs. Protection is 100% always about earth ground - where how many joules dissipate?


Bottom line fact for every protector as understood for over 100 years. A protector is only a connecting device to what does the protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19268659
> 
> 
> So, where is the proof that SurgeX is used to protect the Hubble Telescope? If you cannot prove your contention, I will just have to consider you a liar and discount anything else you have to say.



I posted above my source regarding NASA and other high profile projects and it is Martin Dornfeld and the entire SurgeX sales team, support and management which I got this information from over the phone specifically from Martin. I don't think a major surge eliminator company will lie about who they work with considering they will be held liable and have lawsuits launched their way and other bad press that will spread all over the internet like wild fire and ruin their reputation and hurt their sales and see their profit shrink.


You can contact Martin Dornfeld

Northern Regional Sales Manager

Direct: 267-614-4165


or anyone at SurgeX's offices to confirm everything posted here:

http://www.surgex.com/contactSurgeX.html 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19268659
> 
> 
> I don't doubt that SurgeX is in use in the other places you mentioned. However, I don't believe that there are no MOV based units in use in most, if not all, of those places. If that is your contention, prove it.



Actually I posted many sources above to back up my claims, now you just made the claim that you don't believe there are no MOV based units in most if not all those places. Well how do you know this? Can you prove it? Who are your sources? You haven't posted one source/link to counter anything I have said at all, instead you can sneak in your own little claims in a disingenuous way and think that puts you in a position to not back up anything you say with sources. So am I the defense or prosecution? Both sides need to provide their sources and evidence or it won't hold up.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19268659
> 
> 
> For one thing, surge protection standards often call for protection at the service entrance, subpanels, and branch circuits. Unless I am mistaken, there is no SurgeX device large enough to do the job if the first two places.



I don't think you saw closely all the video links I posted above and I don't believe you have taken any time to contact SurgeX yourself and ask them who can answer your questions more precisely and directly from the horse's mouth. But this video link below will probably answer your question.


Watch and listen from 5:35 to to the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PPxKzLKSrk 


SurgeX XN120 Eliminator Series Power Conditioner:

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messag...81/634527.html 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19268659
> 
> 
> It really doesn't do SurgeX any good to go on a MOV bashing rant. MOVs properly applied provide reliable service for many years. If you think Westom is on the side of typical point-of-use MOV based devices, you haven't read much of what he has posted. SurgeX employees and proponents would do much better to explain how SurgeX accomplishes what it purports to do. Unfortunately, no one has ever done that here that I have seen. And much of the rhetoric has been very detrimental to SurgeX IMHO.



You're kidding right? Please tell me you're kidding? lol I guess you didn't watch the videos I posted above, they clearly show and explain in detail, but I will post more videos of them showing inside their product and how it eliminates the surge inside their product before it reaches the connected equipment.


SurgeX Technology Overview (Open Box):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79p3ysUnx_Y 


Surge Suppression vs SurgeX Surge Elimination:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3SUY...eature=related 


SurgeX vs MOV Suppressors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RixUr...eature=related 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmcD6...eature=related 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PPxKzLKSrk 


I challenge you to watch those videos closely which I doubt you have and then post your own links/sources to counter my sources. You haven't once posted anything to counter my claims that proves the Panamax/Monster/APC style mov's are superior or atleast just as good.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19268659
> 
> 
> Oh, and I was just wondering, why does at least one SurgeX licensee apparently use MOV based protection in addition to SurgeX technology.



This has been discussed on here and on other forums, SurgeX leased out "some" of their older technology from the 1990's to companies like ZeroSurge while SurgeX uses the newer patended technology that you can only get with a SurgeX model.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19268659
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I am just trying to make sense of all the hype there is about surge protection. I have read the SurgeX patents and a lot of other things about surge suppression. My take on it all is that MOV isn't as bad as SurgeX tries to make it out, and SurgeX isn't as good.



Is a mov based Panamax system better than having nothing at all? YES! The point is mov's will either wear out and weaken over time and fail or suffer a catastrophic failure from a powerful enough surge and then it's useless and you will need to replace the entire system. MOV's are very fragile, they're like a little tiny metal wire that looks like a wish bone and that's the only thing standing between your wall outlet circuit amp and your equipment. Also, even when the mov is still intact it's still diverting that bad surge energy from the neutral to the ground which leads to ground contamination.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19268659
> 
> 
> Of course, it is damn near impossible to get useful information about SurgeX.



Again, I just have to ask, you're kidding right? lol I think from this quote you clearly haven't read closely or even looked at the links/sources I posted in my above posts. Take some time to read and watch them closely and you will actually learn quite a bit. It's ok to be skeptical, but to be ignorant is a waste of time and it's impossible to convince anyone who just doesn't want to be convinced regardless of how many sources and evidence is in front of them. It explains in detail in my links, but I also provided the phone number and contact information for the SurgeX management, technical and sales department for you to call and ask them whatever you want to get a direct specific answer that they can give you far better than I can.


I think that the people who defend MOV's need to be more open and honest with themselves and people on here. Most people who support MOV's are usually the ones who never heard of SurgeX before and have fell into the Panamax/Monster/APC/Triplite trap and thought these mov systems at Best Buy, Walmart, Circuit City, Staples, Office Max are great and for someone to come along and tell them that they aren't great and not really protecting their equipment properly is like telling a child that Santa Clause doesn't exist, they go through a denial phase and get defensive. Also, SurgeX is new in the residential market, for years they have been in the ProAV world and commercial world and govt contracts, there are many companies that the U.S. government uses that aren't well known but are multi-million dollar and some billion dollar companies. For example Hitco makes the carbon/carbon brakes for commercial airliners, U.S. military jets, NASA Space Shuttle, Bullet trains, Formua One race cars, they also make the brake discs and pads for Porsche, Ferrari, Bugatti and they're not a well known name.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19268659
> 
> 
> Of course, it is damn near impossible to get useful information about SurgeX.



Surgex (and others such as Brickwall and Zerosurge) are series mode filters. Often used to further reduce noise on AC mains. Found in places where that noise may be harmful such as recording studios and broadcast facilities. A line conditioner that actually does do filtering. As opposed to mythical line conditioners hyped by Monster and other 'profit center' companies.


It is a series mode filter - once all sales hype is removed. Difficult is to learn how good, for example, for longitudinal and normal mode noise. But some studios seem to appreciate a noticeable noise reduction. Series mode filters are often used for noise reduction - not for surge protection.


I am also curious how Surgex protects the Hubble Space Telescope.


----------



## oppopioneer

Westom you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims and people on here say you post your opinions and never back them up, you get into fights with professional engineers on here who school you. Funny how I posted many many many sources/links above and you still have nothing to counter mine except your opinions.


I'm still waiting to know who those MOV companies that work for the Air Force are and do they use those same MOV products for residential?


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19269358
> 
> 
> I am also curious how Surgex protects the Hubble Space Telescope.



Again, this is where I answered above and my source for that is Martin Dornfeld of SurgeX or anyone at SurgeX who can provide you all the information you need much better than I can.


SurgeX

517 North Industrial Dr

Zebulon, NC 27597


Phone: 800-645-9721

Fax: 919-269-0454


Martin Dornfeld

Northern Regional Sales Manager

Direct: 267-614-4165

Email: Martin Dornfeld


Rick Komendera

Vice President, Sales

Direct: 512-535-2475

Email: Rick Komendera

http://www.surgex.com/contactSurgeX.html


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19269373
> 
> 
> Westom you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims and people on here say you post your opinions and never back them up, you get into fights with professional engineers on here who school you.



Show me the engineer. Most posters did not even do a month of learning how electricity works.


Now if posting facts, then you never even discuss a salesman. Engineers know a salesman is only good for providing numbers from his engineer. We don't need those numbers. You were supposed to provide them in your very first post. And what each number means. You posted no numbers. If technically trained, then you know salesmen are mostly wasted time. Where are the spec numbers you were supposed to know before posting?


And again, the major and damning question. Numbers. How does that Surgex absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? You recommended the Surgex. So you learned those numbers. Or you are making bogus recommendations. Reciting what salesmen told you to believe. How does that series mode filter absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules?


It is a simple number even for every layman. How many joules does that Surgex absorb? Why do you not answer? Because the real number is a tiny few thousand. Grossly undersized - ineffective protection. Learn spec numbers - not salesmen names and youtube propaganda.


Surgex is supplementary protection. A series mode filter. Apparently superior to line conditioners hyped by APC and Monster. You do know what a series mode filter is? Oh. Go learn what a series mode filter is - and what numbers are relevant. Post those numbers; not a salesman's phone number.


----------



## DAB

O-- OK I'll bite what are the costs of these products? Their CA dealers isn't really a walk in store.

db


----------



## Colm

Ok oppopioneer, you cannot prove, or refuse to prove your claim that SurgeX protects the Hubble Telescope. Therefore I must assume you are a liar. That makes everything you say suspect. FWIW the only claim I have ever seen SurgeX make related to the Hubble Telescope is that their devices are used to protect the uplink. That is the ground station, not the telescope. If I am wrong, show me the evidence.


It is unfortunate that SurgeX is promoted by people like you. No wonder they get such a bad rap in forums like this. You are doing a real disservice to SurgeX.


You refer me to sales managers? I have worked for companies much bigger than SurgeX where sales managers sold things we didn't have because they were ignorant, or because they were sure we could produce it in time. They tell customers what they want to hear to get sales. I never trust what a sales manager says. I only begin to trust what they say when they put it in writing. If they will put it in writing, you get it and back up your claim.


You come off like a total jerk. I tell you I have read the patents and your reaction is that I must never have read anything about SurgeX.

I have seen your posts on other sites. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is ignorant in your opinion. You don't respond to relevant questions. You challenge me to prove things I have never claimed. Your are long on rhetoric and short on facts. What a loser.


Have you even noticed that I have not said one bad thing about SurgeX products, just your BS?


You defensive response is quite telling considering I asked you just two things:

Proof of your claim that the Hubble Telescope is protected by a SurgeX device.
Whether you are claiming that all the sites that use SurgeX do not use MOV based devices as well.

And you responded adequately to neither.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DAB* /forum/post/19269569
> 
> 
> O-- OK I'll bite what are the costs of these products? Their CA dealers isn't really a walk in store.
> 
> db



8A 6 outlet point-of-use device lists for $225. Prices go up from there. Look here .


----------



## oppopioneer

westom still no sources/links from you, so everything you post here is just your opinions and you're a fraud on this forum from reading your posts.


----------



## Colm

Ah, the pot calling the kettle black! Gets better all the time!


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19269680
> 
> 
> Ok oppopioneer, you cannot prove, or refuse to prove your claim that SurgeX protects the Hubble Telescope.



I contacted SurgeX and Yes it is the uplink and I believe it is the uplink which I associate with the Hubble Telescope's protection. I would hope that NASA uses a credible surge eliminator for it's Hubble Telescope uplink. For you to dismiss my claim about SurgeX and the Hubble Telescope as having no connection what so ever and the Hubble's uplink has no dependence on a surge eliminator for it's safety shows how desperate you are to try to win a debate. I do associate SurgeX protecting the Hubble Space Telescope but can you show where I said it's the only thing that is protecting it? It is one of many things being used by NASA. LOL











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19269680
> 
> 
> It is unfortunate that SurgeX is promoted by people like you. No wonder they get such a bad rap in forums like this. You are doing a real disservice to SurgeX.



SurgeX doesn't get a bad rap, it's jerks like you who think you can sit online all day and go to such extremes to try to win a debate even when someone posts many sources/links to back up their claims and you never once post any source to back up your "opinions" and instead of just admitting you're wrong and educating yourself you keep digging a deeper hole so in order to save face you have no other option but to keep digging, and for some reason you have this weird twisted perverted obsession over defending mov's which are proven to divert dangerous surges from the neutral to the ground and create harmful ground contamination and why the Pro Audio world shuns mov's. Do you think you know more about how to properly protect multi-million dollar and billion dollar sports stadiums, concert halls, major Hollywood movie studios, government facilities more than the actual professionals hired to put these state of the art facilities and projects together? lol What are your qualifications and back ground? Who are you and what is your resume? What education in this field do you have or are you another "expert" who sits online and gets into fights with people all day? lol I am NOT a engineer, I have NOT worked in the electical field, I have NEVER been a electrician and I am NOT associated with SurgeX or any company or ever worked for any company involved with this discussion, I am NOT anyone special, what I am is someone who has backed up my claims with sources, something you haven't once done and that is your reputation here. Maybe we can get BobL over here who works in the electrical field and is quite knowledgable on this subject of proper protection against surges.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19269680
> 
> 
> You refer me to sales managers? I have worked for companies much bigger than SurgeX where sales managers sold things we didn't have because they were ignorant, or because they were sure we could produce it in time. They tell customers what they want to hear to get sales. I never trust what a sales manager says. I only begin to trust what they say when they put it in writing. If they will put it in writing, you get it and back up your claim.



And what are the names of these companies and what was your postion there? What is your name so I can contact these "companies" ? Either back it up or you're a liar and another internet fraud who has a big ego but nothing to back it up. I guarantee you won't answer this question and back up your claim either just like many questions you been asked and challenged to back up. You're a coward and a intellectual fraud.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19269680
> 
> 
> You come off like a total jerk.



No you're the jerk and you have the bad rep here and the other members here you fight with show this.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You will have to forgive Westom
> 
> 
> He has posted the same opinions a hundred times and many engineers have proven him wrong. he posts only his opinions and has no back up so we just let him rant.



Also, Stereodude schools you quite nicely on this thread and provides photographic evidence to back up his claims, you still sit there and attack his results and knowledge without never once posting any sources of your own to counter his. You're also trying to play this off like I'm the only one on this thread that has challenged you when if you read this entire thread it's most people on here fighting you and your arrogance and refusal to admit when you're wrong and you just come here to argue, run around in circles just to argue, for example you say I'm short on substance, but it's most people on here you argue with who provide evidence, sources/links, you haven't once provided any source to back up your claims, I have provided over 15 and then you attack them without proving mine wrong with your own sources/links. You're a petulant little child who throws temper tantrums when people stand up to you and you try to bully people with intellectually dishonest opinions, you're a fraud, a loser and a hypocrite. Now jump up and down and continue to demand proof after I post proof after proof. lol Do you understand anything about "evidence" ? If this was a court of law the judge would throw you out and hold you in contempt. lol Do you understand there is a "Defense" and "Prosecution" and both sides need to provide that little thing called "evidence' and opinions don't hold up as evidence.


By the way, you still haven't proven the Air Force uses MOV's and what they cost and if those are used to protect homes and if home owner consumers can buy them, you still haven't proven if any of the sports stadiums and other venues I proven use SurgeX also rely on mov's, and you still haven't proven who you are, the companies you worked for, your background, education. Now get to it.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19270287
> 
> 
> ...Yes it is the uplink...



You admit you lied. Case closed. You will say anything to support your views.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19270405
> 
> 
> You admit you lied. Case closed. You will say anything to support your views.



Oh my! How did I lie? lol I said NASA uses SurgeX for protection, protecting the uplink is part of the Hubble's protection dummy. I would also suggest you go back a few pages and read the people on here posting all sorts of sources and evidence showing how westom cares more about winning a debate instead of just being honest. So I think you're only here now to play games and I have backed up my views and you haven't once. Case closed!


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19270405
> 
> 
> You admit you lied. Case closed. You will say anything to support your views.



By the way, read a little more carefully.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I contacted SurgeX and Yes it is the uplink and I believe it is the uplink which I associate with the Hubble Telescope's protection. I would hope that NASA uses a credible surge eliminator for it's Hubble Telescope uplink. For you to dismiss my claim about SurgeX and the Hubble Telescope as having no connection what so ever and the Hubble's uplink has no dependence on a surge eliminator for it's safety shows how desperate you are to try to win a debate. I do associate SurgeX protecting the Hubble Space Telescope but can you show where I said it's the only thing that is protecting it? It is one of many things being used by NASA. LOL


----------



## oppopioneer

This thread has gotten out of hand and let's try to simplify this:


This is about devices used to protect connected equipment and I am refering to plug-in devices which I thought this debate was about, a SurgeX versus typical mov based devices. Obviously I am a fan of SurgeX products and I do believe they do a good job at protecting connected equipment and is superior to a mov based device especially for home theaters, recording studios, booths requiring plug-in devices to stop harmful surges from reaching the connected equipment. I do NOT believe SurgeX is some magical force field that will stop any damage from a direct lightning strike and SurgeX is not perfect, just superior to mov based devices that use ground to filter. I also posted above a link to a SurgeX model that is connected at the service panel breaker box.


westom disagrees and believes that mov's are superior if used properly, but he has yet to prove this with any sources and which company makes a proper mov based system for consumers in residential that will protect their connected equipment better than a SurgeX.


----------



## Colm

Now there is a reasonable statement.


It may well be that SurgeX does a better job as a point-of-use device or for protecting a single circuit than a MOV based device. MOV based point-of-use devices have several short comings, among them upsetting the ground reference, the limited surge current capability most of them have, and impedance of the branch circuit. And SurgeX claims to have overcome these problems. The problem is that precious little useful information (numbers) about SurgeX is available.


I think westom would agree, though, that the best way to prevent damage from surges is to keep them out of the building in the first place because most damaging surges for residences originate outside the building (industrial/commercial is a different world). This requires a whole-house approach. And SurgeX doesn't have a product to do that because such a device using SurgeX technology would be very large and very expensive. That makes MOV a reasonable choice. Properly sized (50KA or so), a MOV based surge protective device can last 20 years or more. It isn't a sacrificial component (one surge and fail). I have one with ten years and counting.


FWIW I would love to see convincing information (numbers and charts showing performance) on SurgeX.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19270811
> 
> 
> Now there is a reasonable statement.
> 
> 
> It may well be that SurgeX does a better job as a point-of-use device or for protecting a single circuit than a MOV based device. MOV based point-of-use devices have several short comings, among them upsetting the ground reference, the limited surge current capability most of them have, and impedance of the branch circuit. The problem is that precious little useful information (numbers) about SurgeX is available.
> 
> 
> I think westom would agree, though, that the best way to prevent damage from surges is to keep them out of the building in the first place. This requires a whole-house approach. And SurgeX doesn't have a product to do that because such a device using SurgeX technology would be very large and very expensive. That makes MOV a reasonable choice. Properly sized, a MOV surge protective device can last 20 years or more. It isn't a sacrificial component (one surge and fail). I have one with ten years and counting.
> 
> 
> FWIW I would love to see convincing information (numbers) on SurgeX.



You are correct but this debate was about a SurgeX surge eliminator plug-in device versus typical MOV surge suppressor devices to protect connected equipment and which is superior to blocking or even eliminating harmful surges to your flatscreen tv, reciever, amp etc, and also recording studios, tv booths etc. The whole point was that a SurgeX rack mounted model connected directly to the equipment is superior to any rack mounted mov based model for use in the applications above.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19270437
> 
> 
> How did I lie?



"SurgeX is used by sports stadiums, concert halls, Hollywood movie studios, NASA Hubble Space Telescope and the U.S. Government"


It is used for the uplink, not the telescope. Don't you see a difference between the telescope in orbit and the uplink on the ground?


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19270811
> 
> 
> Now there is a reasonable statement.
> 
> 
> It may well be that SurgeX does a better job as a point-of-use device or for protecting a single circuit than a MOV based device. MOV based point-of-use devices have several short comings, among them upsetting the ground reference, the limited surge current capability most of them have, and impedance of the branch circuit.



SurgeX made no claims about being superior to whole house surge protectors, all of their tests and demonstrations they show at electronic shows like CEDIA and InfoComm are about comparing their rack mounted devices versus typical mov based devices and how they handle surges.


From reading the above posts it seems this debate has gone through some miscommunication, this is not a debate about whole house surge protectors versus SurgeX units, this is about SurgeX units versus mov based units and why high profile projects are using SurgeX.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And SurgeX claims to have overcome these problems. The problem is that precious little useful information (numbers) about SurgeX is available. FWIW I would love to see convincing information (numbers and charts showing performance) on SurgeX.



I don't think I ever got an answer to this, but did you ever contact SurgeX to ask them yourself whether they be sales people or engineers who work for the company? To be skeptical of SurgeX's claims based on a forum member like me acting as a messenger as I don't know all the inside secrets and details of their technology is not a good enough reason to discredit SurgeX and their claims. I don't know why you won't contact them and ask them yourselves as I said above they can tell you much much more than I ever could and give you specifics and also go to CEDIA and InfoComm at their booth and confront their sales people face to face.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19270835
> 
> 
> ...this debate was about a SurgeX surge eliminator plug-in device versus typical MOV surge suppressor devices to protect connected equipment...



Well, that certainly wasn't clear from your original post...


I would still love to see some technical data...


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19270881
> 
> 
> It is used for the uplink, not the telescope. Don't you see a difference between the telescope in orbit and the uplink on the ground?



I do believe the uplink along with everything used and that is working in conjunction with the telescope has a important role to play and yes I do know the difference between a telescope and the uplink. Are you saying having no surge eliminator connected to the uplink would never effect the operation of the telescope and no bearing what so ever? What is the point of having a surge eliminator if it has no effect on the enire telescope's operation?


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19270905
> 
> 
> Well, that certainly wasn't clear from your original post...
> 
> 
> I would still love to see some technical data...



Can you be more specific on "technical data" and what will satisfy you?


I'll copy and paste this from SurgeX's official website about the numbers and test results they provide:


SurgeX SU 1000Li - Surge Eliminator/Power Conditioner

Line Interactive 1000 VA UPS with Automatic Voltage Regulation


SPECIFICATIONS:


AC Input

Number of Phases: Single (2W + G)

Power Cord: 6-ft. grounded, 3 wire, #14 line cord

Input Voltage (Acceptable Input Voltage): 120VAC (0 - 160VAC)

Input Voltage Range (Normal mode): 90 - 150VAC

DC Start Capability: Yes, (defaults to 60Hz)

Power Requirements (no load): 35 watts (charging), 15 watts (charged)


AC Output (Normal Mode)

Load Rating: 15 Amps @ 120 volts

Load Power Factor: 0.6

Outlets: 6 outlets (15 Amp) all with Advanced Series Mode surge elimination, 2 outlets with battery back-up

Output Frequency: Same as Input

Short Circuit Protection: Re-settable circuit breaker and electronically limited

Overload Capability: 110% - 5 minutes ≥120% - immediate shutdown

Output Voltage Regulation: 120VAC: -12.5% to +8.4%

Waveform: Same as Input

Boost Mode Voltage (Buck mode voltage): Nominal +16% (Nominal -14%)

Line Mode Voltage Range: 105 - 130VAC

Efficiency: Normal mode > 90%


AC Output (Battery Mode)

Capacity: 1000VA/600W

Back-up Run Time: 4 minutes 600W full load, 10.4 minutes 300W half load

Output voltage: Nominal 120VAC

Waveform: Stepped sine wave (simulated sine wave)

Topology: Single boost/buck line interactive, simulated sine wave

Battery Mode Voltage Regulation: Nominal ± 6% until LBW

Transfer Time: 6-10 ms

Output Frequency & Regulation: 50/60Hz ± 0.5Hz (Unless synchronized to utility)

Short Circuit Protection: Active electronic (current limit)


Batteries

Battery Rating: (2) 12V/7AH

Replacement: Hot swappable

Recharge Time: 8 hours to 90% after full load discharge



Surge Protection Specifications

Surge Protection: Advanced Series Mode® surge elimination

Surge Energy Rating: 6,000 volts/3,000 amps

Let through Voltage (6,000 volt surge): 0 volts

UL 1449 Adjunct Classification Test Results: 1000 surges, 6000 volts, 3000 amps, B3 pulse; Measured suppressed voltage: 170 volts; no failures.

Federal Guidelines: Grade A, Class 1, Mode 1 (CID A-A-55818)

EMI/RFI Filter, Normal Mode (50-ohm load): 40 dB @ 100 kHz; 50 dB @ 300 kHz; 50 dB @ 3 MHz; 50 dB @ 30 MHz

EMI/RFI Filter, Common Mode (50-ohm load): 18 dB @ 300 kHz; 30 dB @ 1 MHz; 50 dB @ 5 MHz; 50 dB @ 20 MHz

Maximum Applied Surge Voltage: 6000 volts*

Maximum Applied Surge Current: Unlimited, due to current limiting*

Maximum Applied Surge Energy: Unlimited, due to current limiting*

Endurance (C62.41-1991 Category B3 pulses): 1kV>500,000; 3 kV>10,000; 6 kV>1000


General Specifications

Warranty: (USA and Canada only) 10-year limited warranty

Battery Warranty: 2 years

Monitoring Software: Includes SentryPlus software

Communications: USB

Rack Size: 2U

Unit Dimensions (H x W x D): 3.5” x 19.0” x 10.5”

Unit Weight (lbs.): 32.0 lbs.

Operating Temperature: 32°F to 104°F (up to 5,000 ft above sea level (0°C to +40°C (up to 1,500 meters above sea level)

Operating Elevation: 32°F to 95°F (5,001-10,000 ft above sea level (0°C to +35°C (1,501 to 3,000 meters above sea level)

Storage Temperature/Relative Humidity: 5°F to 113°F (-15°C to +45°C) / 0 - 95% non-condensing

Humidity Range: 5% to 95% R.H., non-condensing


* 1.2 x 50 μs pulse, industry standard combination wave surge, as per IEEE C62.41.


** Specifications subject to change without notice.


You can download three pdf files in the link below too.

http://www.surgex.com/products/su1000li.html


----------



## oppopioneer

On this page there is a pdf file to download for the specs of their SurgeX SX1115RT model and Installation Guide:

http://www.surgex.com/products/sx1115rt.html


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19270930
> 
> 
> Are you saying having no surge eliminator connected to the uplink would never effect the operation of the telescope and no bearing what so ever?



Not at all, it is just that the design and qualification for a surge suppressor for a satellite is a very different thing than the design and qualification of one for a ground facility. I don't doubt at all that SurgeX technology is in use in the ground facility. Let us just say you just conflated the two.


----------



## oppopioneer

But what is clear here is as I stated above I am NOT a expert in this field and I am posting sources and instead of reading those sources or even contacting SurgeX to ask them yourself you are using my limited knowledge on this as a way to discredit SurgeX which is convenient for you and able to put yourself in a position to play devil's advocate and try to trap me but you still refuse to contact SurgeX, so I have to assume that's because you rather deal with a amateur like me instead of get the answers you're maybe afraid to hear from SurgeX. It seems the more answers and sources/links I give you the more you want to complicate the debate and demand more and more specific details knowing I don't know it as like I said it's easy to play that game and not ask the engineers at SurgeX yourselves. Just because I personally don't know and can't give you the intricate details of every little working component in their models has no bearing on the validity of SurgeX and their claims you refuse to ask them.


What I have done through out this debate is provide sources and evidence and still Colm and tom haven't provided one but to take the position to play dumb while not countering with any sources of their own. The only thing they think they got on me was when I made a very vague claim of: "SurgeX protects the Nasa Hubble Space Telescope." and to go to such extremes to try to trap me on that one very vague claim after all the other sources and sites I posted shows they really have nothing. lol Nothing I have posted is untrue, just some take it out of context.


----------



## oppopioneer

Here are my sources and until Colm and tom post their own sources to counter mine then there is no debate, it's just a game being played by a couple of guys who have nothing else to do but play little games behind a computer.


New Dallas Cowboys Stadium uses SurgeX:

http://www.listentech.com/blog/Dalla...lights-Listen/ 


New Yankee Stadium using SurgeX SX2120 surge eliminator and power conditioner:

http://www.soundandcommunications.co...09_03_apps.htm 


Recent installations include: Carnegie Hall, Dallas Cowboys new 2009 Stadium, Yankees Stadium, and The Kimmel Center:

http://www.surgex.com/media/index.html 


SurgeX used by Paramount Studios:

http://surgex.com/news.html 


The SurgeX's XN120 won the 2010 CEDIA Lifestyles Electronic Award, and also the 2010 Resi Awards (Residential Systems Magazine)

http://www.cedia.net/awards/ 

http://www.residentialsystems.com/article/46668.aspx 


InfoComm - SurgeX vs MOV Suppressors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RixUrc-FRcM 


InfoComm -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmcD635NNPU 


SurgeX Booth CEDIA 2010:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PPxKzLKSrk


----------



## Colm

I'll have to think about what kind of information I would find convincing. I am basically in the mode of trying to find whatever is convincing about the products. Testimonials don't do it (yeah, their products are used by big names, so are MOV based units). Neither does blowing up cheap MOV based units (even I can do that).


I have read the boilerplate on the SurgeX site before. Here are a couple of snippets from what you posted that make me skeptical of the company (not necessarily the product).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19270957
> 
> 
> UL 1449 Adjunct Classification Test Results: 1000 surges, 6000 volts, 3000 amps, B3 pulse; Measured suppressed voltage: 170 volts; no failures.



Seems to imply that the UL suppressed voltage rating is 170V, which would appear to be better than all the other devices the lowest of which are rated 330V. But this isn't true. The lowest UL suppressed voltage rating is 330V. I understand where the 170V came from, but the text seems to imply that this is a UL rating and it isn't. And whether the difference between 170V and 330V is significant is arguable. Almost everything is inherently immune to surges bigger than either of those two numbers.


> Quote:
> Federal Guidelines: Grade A, Class 1, Mode 1 (CID A-A-55818)



SurgeX promotes the fact that their devices are A11 making them better in the government's opinion than devices with other ratings. But the cited guidelines are simply a classification system, not a rating system, and a defunct one at that. It is totally misleading.


The other thing that makes me skeptical of the company is that they make claims that their product doesn't have the same problems as competing products but provide only vague descriptions of how their products work.


I would have more confidence in their products if they were a bit more forthcoming and a bit less sleazy in the way they use information in their advertising. If their products are as good as they say, they don't need to promote their products this way.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19271184
> 
> 
> Here are my sources



Yeah, if it is posted on the internet, it must be right...


----------



## Colm

I guess one thing I would like to see is a chart that shows how the energy from surges is dissipated over time and a general schematic, or at least a block diagram, of the device. As I understand it, the components of the current SurgeX devices contain inductors, capacitors, resistors, and diode bridges. I would be interested in factors affecting the reliability of the later three types of devices, which do fail in other devices. In other words, I would like to know how it works and what its limitations are. I don't believe SurgeX devices constructed with these components never fail, although I believe they can be made very reliable without too much expense.


----------



## Colm

I'll have to think about what kind of information I would find convincing. I am basically in the mode of trying to find whatever is convincing about the products. Testimonials don't do it (yeah, their products are used by big names, so are MOV based units). Neither does blowing up cheap MOV based units (even I can do that).


I have read the boilerplate on the SurgeX site before. Here are a couple of snippets from what you posted that make me skeptical of the company (not necessarily the product).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19270957
> 
> 
> UL 1449 Adjunct Classification Test Results: 1000 surges, 6000 volts, 3000 amps, B3 pulse; Measured suppressed voltage: 170 volts; no failures.



Seems to imply that the UL suppressed voltage rating is 170V, which would appear to be better than all the other devices the lowest of which are rated less than 330V. But this isn't true. The lowest UL suppressed voltage rating is 330V. I understand where the 170V came from, but the text seems to imply that this is a UL rating and it isn't. And whether the difference between 170V and 330V is significant is arguable. Almost everything is inherently immune to surges bigger than either of those two numbers.


> Quote:
> Federal Guidelines: Grade A, Class 1, Mode 1 (CID A-A-55818)



SurgeX promotes the fact that their devices are A11 making them better in the government's opinion than devices with other ratings. But the cited guidelines are simply a classification system, not a rating system, and a defunct one at that. It is totally misleading.


The other thing that makes me skeptical of the company is that they make claims that their product doesn't have the same problems as competing products but provide only vague descriptions of how their products work.


I would have more confidence in their products if they were a bit more forthcoming and a bit less sleazy in the way they use information in their advertising. If their products are as good as they say, they don't need to promote their products this way.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19271244
> 
> 
> I'll have to think about what kind of information I would find convincing. I am basically in the mode of trying to find whatever is convincing about the products. Testimonials don't do it (yeah, their products are used by big names, so are MOV based units). Neither does blowing up cheap MOV based units (even I can do that).



Even a amateur like me can tell you're clearly not educated or well versed in this field. Also can you prove those are cheap mov based units being blown up and what is manufacturer? You seem to make a lot of claims you can't back up and still you don't post any sources to back up your opinions just like westom.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19271244
> 
> 
> Seems to imply that the UL suppressed voltage rating is 170V, which would appear to be better than all the other devices the lowest of which are rated less than 330V. But this isn't true. The lowest UL suppressed voltage rating is 330V. I understand where the 170V came from, but the text seems to imply that this is a UL rating and it isn't.



And what evidence do you have to back up that claim and can you post the source link to the official UL rating and how they achieve their results? I doubt you will.







If you don't then your claim and "opinion" is false and you're just lying for fear a amateur defeated you.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19271244
> 
> 
> And whether the difference between 170V and 330V is significant is arguable. Almost everything is inherently immune to surges bigger than either of those two numbers.



Well in the real world it's not arguable, it's just since you can't prove it it's only "arguable" to you.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19271244
> 
> 
> SurgeX promotes the fact that their devices are A11 making them better in the government's opinion than devices with other ratings. But the cited guidelines are simply a classification system, not a rating system, and a defunct one at that. It is totally misleading.



That's your opinion again. Where should SurgeX send it's equipment off to get tested and which organization and what should a real proper test result be?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19271244
> 
> 
> The other thing that makes me skeptical of the company is that they make claims that their product doesn't have the same problems as competing products but provide only vague descriptions of how their products work.



What tests should they do to convince you (even though you don't want to be convinced regardless.







)


Also, if this is a possibly shady company with disingenuous claims why would multi-million dollar and billion dollar venues and projects use SurgeX? You haven't answered that either with a proven source, but you will only reply back with a opinion, a guess.


hmmm seems you're quite scared to contact SurgeX yourself, I wonder why?











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19271244
> 
> 
> I would have more confidence in their products if they were a bit more forthcoming and a bit less sleazy in the way they use information in their advertising. If their products are as good as they say, they don't need to promote their products this way.



What should they put forth that will satisfy you other than parting the Red Sea and walking on water? lol


I would say most companies around the world that compete against one another in different market sectors take little shots at one another. Tv commercials have Chevy, Ford, Dodge, Toyota all taking pot shots, towing bigger and heavier loads in their bed, more torque, who can climb up a hill and plow snow. Almost every automaker in the world puts out ads making all sorts of claims. You have a big war between AT&T and Verizon on who has the best coverage and all their commercials making claims. Coca-Cola versus Pepsi. Sony versus Samsung versus Panasonic. Which water protector protects your deck from rain more, which fertilizer grows your grass greener, oil companies claiming their oil does a better job at cleaning the sludge buildup and improves performance.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19271287
> 
> 
> Yeah, if it is posted on the internet, it must be right...



And where is the proper place to get the information?


You're using the internet now obviously so you yourself can't be legit or right because you are part of the internet, if everything posted on the internet can't be trusted.


----------



## Colm

I shoulda listened to my mama. She told me never to argue with a fool.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19271342
> 
> 
> I guess one thing I would like to see is a chart that shows how the energy from surges is dissipated over time and a general schematic, or at least a block diagram, of the device. As I understand it, the components of the current SurgeX devices contain inductors, capacitors, resistors, and diode bridges. I would be interested in factors affecting the reliability of the later three types of devices, which do fail in other devices. In other words, I would like to know how it works and what its limitations are. I don't believe SurgeX devices constructed with these components never fail, although I believe they can be made very reliable without too much expense.



They have a 10 year warranty, I would also like to know if a SurgeX product that has failed.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19271386
> 
> 
> I shoulda listened to my mama. She told me never to argue with a fool.



Still waiting for those sources and links.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19271342
> 
> 
> I guess one thing I would like to see is a chart that shows how the energy from surges is dissipated over time and a general schematic, or at least a block diagram, of the device. As I understand it, the components of the current SurgeX devices contain inductors, capacitors, resistors, and diode bridges. I would be interested in factors affecting the reliability of the later three types of devices, which do fail in other devices. In other words, I would like to know how it works and what its limitations are. I don't believe SurgeX devices constructed with these components never fail, although I believe they can be made very reliable without too much expense.



Do any whole house surge protectors for the consumer residential market put their products through this test and how much do they sell it for?


----------



## AV Doogie

Quote:

Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* 
Do any whole house surge protectors for the consumer residential market put their products through this test and how much do they sell it for?


Yes,


The 'standard' tests have been around for some time. There are a number of manufacturers which provide this testing and also provide the test results for everyone to see. I would not tend to believe a manufacturers' marketing unless this 'standard' test information was published for each type of suppression device.


IT (Innovative Technology) is one such company. This group, now owned by Eaton, has provided these type of test results for years. Please see the attachment for the standard tests. They consist of three types of waveforms, each with three different combinations of voltages and currents (A, B and C type waveforms).

 

TVSS guide 1.pdf 35.224609375k . file


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19271407
> 
> 
> They have a 10 year warranty, I would also like to know if a SurgeX product that has failed.



The IT products I have indicated above, typically have a ten or twenty year warranty. You also need to realize that the surgeX units are installed in series with the load, similar to a plug-in TVSS device which uses MOV's. SurgeX devices can not be installed at the main service entrance panel where a suppression device can provide the best suppression.


----------



## oppopioneer

As stated above this isn't a debate about mov whole house surge protectors versus SurgeX rack mounted units that equipment is plugged directly into. This was suppose to be a debate about plug-in devices like a SurgeX versus mov based devices and why a SurgeX design is superior at reducing or blocking or stopping harmful surges and other problems reaching the connected equipment.


----------



## oppopioneer

MOV based device HAZARDS:


Hazards

While a MOV is designed to conduct significant power for very short durations (~8/20 microseconds), such as caused by lightning strikes, it typically does not have the capacity to conduct sustained energy. Under normal utility voltage conditions, this is not a problem. However, certain types of faults on the utility power grid can result in sustained over-voltage conditions. Examples include a loss of a neutral conductor or shorted lines on the high voltage system. Application of sustained over-voltage to a MOV can cause high dissipation, potentially resulting in the MOV device catching fire. The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) has documented many cases of catastrophic fires that have been caused by MOV devices in surge suppressors, and has issued bulletins on the issue.


A series connected thermal fuse is one solution to catastrophic MOV failure. Varistors with internal thermal protection are also available.


There are several issues to be noted regarding behavior of transient voltage surge suppressors (TVSS) incorporating MOVs under over-voltage conditions. Depending on the level of conducted current, dissipated heat may be insufficient to cause failure, but may degrade the MOV device and reduce its life expectancy. If excessive current is conducted by a MOV, it may explode inside the case, keeping the load connected but now without any surge protection. A user may have no indication when the surge suppressor has failed. Under the right conditions of over-voltage and line impedance, it may be possible to cause the MOV to burst into flames, the root cause of many fires and the main reason for NFPA's concern. Properly designed TVSS devices should contain the flames, eventually resulting in the opening of a safety fuse.

http://www.answers.com/topic/varistor 


The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA):

http://www.answers.com/topic/nationa...on-association 


transient voltage surge suppressors (TVSS):

http://www.answers.com/topic/surge-protector


----------



## oppopioneer

For some people on here to go to such extremes to find any little tiny thing to criticize SurgeX on like comparing a whore house surge protector at the service entry put in by a professional licensed certified electrician versus a amateur plugging in your own SurgeX rack mounted device in your entertainment system shows a sign of desperation and wanting to hold SurgeX to very high standards.


If I had the money I could hire the company that puts in the surge protection for a entire hospital or Pentagon and then say: "naaa naaa neaner neaner neaner I'm protected more than a SurgeX!!!" lol


But like posted above SurgeX is used in multi-million and billion dollar projects and was specified for surge elimination and power conditioning at the new Dallas Cowboys $1 billion dollar stadium for the main racks, FOH racks, and every remote rack location protecting the sensitive DSP, hubs and other peripheral equipment. A total of 44 SurgeX SX1120-RT were used throughout the venue. Everything else is a TVSS surge suppressor, SurgeX is the only complete surge eliminator, 0 voltage let through on worst case surge of 6000Volts, 3000amps.

http://www.listentech.com/blog/Dalla...lights-Listen/ 


I'd like to know what they use the TVSS surge suppressors for.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19272582
> 
> 
> MOV based device HAZARDS:
> 
> 
> Hazards
> 
> While a MOV is designed to conduct significant power for very short durations (~8/20 microseconds), such as caused by lightning strikes, it typically does not have the capacity to conduct sustained energy. Under normal utility voltage conditions, this is not a problem. However, certain types of faults on the utility power grid can result in sustained over-voltage conditions. Examples include a loss of a neutral conductor or shorted lines on the high voltage system. Application of sustained over-voltage to a MOV can cause high dissipation, potentially resulting in the MOV device catching fire. The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) has documented many cases of catastrophic fires that have been caused by MOV devices in surge suppressors, and has issued bulletins on the issue.
> 
> 
> A series connected thermal fuse is one solution to catastrophic MOV failure. Varistors with internal thermal protection are also available.
> 
> 
> There are several issues to be noted regarding behavior of transient voltage surge suppressors (TVSS) incorporating MOVs under over-voltage conditions. Depending on the level of conducted current, dissipated heat may be insufficient to cause failure, but may degrade the MOV device and reduce its life expectancy. If excessive current is conducted by a MOV, it may explode inside the case, keeping the load connected but now without any surge protection. A user may have no indication when the surge suppressor has failed. Under the right conditions of over-voltage and line impedance, it may be possible to cause the MOV to burst into flames, the root cause of many fires and the main reason for NFPA's concern. Properly designed TVSS devices should contain the flames, eventually resulting in the opening of a safety fuse.
> 
> http://www.answers.com/topic/varistor
> 
> 
> The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA):
> 
> http://www.answers.com/topic/nationa...on-association
> 
> 
> transient voltage surge suppressors (TVSS):
> 
> http://www.answers.com/topic/surge-protector




I am not trying to 'beat-up' the surgeX type products, they are simply designed to provide suppression when applied to small loads in a similar way as MOV type plug in devices. There are poor examples of MOV units and series mode units, you can not simply take information pointing to a whole category of devices and generalize about their operating characteristics. You need to decide for yourself if the information provided by the SurgeX people is acceptable or not. To me it is not. They do not provide information related to standard industry testing for their products. Additionally, I have never, and I mean never seen these units used in a data center, colocation facility, industrial facility or commercial facility where I have worked....and I work in hundreds of these facilities in the Chicago/Milwaukee area.


Your information regarding failures of MOV based devices is dated...the new UL 1449 requirements were developed to mitigate the problems with device failure and subsequent external damage.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19272641
> 
> 
> For some people on here to go to such extremes to find any little tiny thing to criticize SurgeX on like comparing a whore house surge protector at the service entry put in by a professional licensed certified electrician versus a amateur plugging in your own SurgeX rack mounted device in your entertainment system shows a sign of desperation and wanting to hold SurgeX to very high standards.
> 
> 
> If I had the money I could hire the company that puts in the surge protection for a entire hospital or Pentagon and then say: "naaa naaa neaner neaner neaner I'm protected more than a SurgeX!!!" lol
> 
> 
> But like posted above SurgeX is used in multi-million and billion dollar projects and was specified for surge elimination and power conditioning at the new Dallas Cowboys $1 billion dollar stadium for the main racks, FOH racks, and every remote rack location protecting the sensitive DSP, hubs and other peripheral equipment. A total of 44 SurgeX SX1120-RT were used throughout the venue. Everything else is a TVSS surge suppressor, SurgeX is the only complete surge eliminator, 0 voltage let through on worst case surge of 6000Volts, 3000amps.
> 
> http://www.listentech.com/blog/Dalla...lights-Listen/
> 
> 
> I'd like to know what they use the TVSS surge suppressors for.




Again, the SurgeX units are used downstream for protection in these facilities. They can not handle the duties at the main service entrance location due to the nature of their design. I would be willing to bet that the suppression at the main service entrance locations is MOV based. As long as the main and sub panel suppression equipment is coordinated properly, this type of system will work well. If not, the downstream equipment recieves the brunt of the surge and has to do all the work.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19272903
> 
> 
> I am not trying to 'beat-up' the surgeX type products, they are simply designed to provide suppression when applied to small loads in a similar way as MOV type plug in devices. There are poor examples of MOV units and series mode units, you can not simply take information pointing to a whole category of devices and generalize about their operating characteristics. You need to decide for yourself if the information provided by the SurgeX people is acceptable or not. To me it is not. They do not provide information related to standard industry testing for their products. Additionally, I have never, and I mean never seen these units used in a data center, colocation facility, industrial facility or commercial facility where I have worked....and I work in hundreds of these facilities in the Chicago/Milwaukee area.



Just because "YOU" personally haven't seen SurgeX products in the Chicago/Milwaukee area doesn't mean they aren't widely used through out other markets and facilities through out the country.


You also continue with this: "Whole house surge protector versus SurgeX" comparison and again for the 4th time this isn't about whole house surge protectors at the service entrance versus a rack mounted device. This is about plug-in devices connected directly to the equipment and why a mov based device is inferior.


There are also countless complaints and reports, reviews by customers who used mov based devices for their home theater like Panamax, Monster, APC, Triplite that suffered a catastrophic failure and the most common wording or phrasing is this: "My mov bit the bullet during a lightning storm."


You're also too scared to contact SurgeX yourself and ask them, instead you want to try to debate a amateur like me. I suggest you go over to Mike Holt's forum and talk to the engineers there who actually post publicly their real names, education, qualifications, resume. Now if you want to turn your nose up at Mike Holt well what is your qualifications and name?


So far AV Doogie, westom, Colm haven't posted any source to back up their opinions.


----------



## oppopioneer

I'll repeat...


But what is clear here is as I stated above I am NOT a expert in this field and I am posting sources and instead of reading those sources or even contacting SurgeX to ask them yourself you are using my limited knowledge on this as a way to discredit SurgeX which is convenient for you and able to put yourself in a position to play devil's advocate and try to trap me but you still refuse to contact SurgeX, so I have to assume that's because you rather deal with a amateur like me instead of get the answers you're maybe afraid to hear from SurgeX. It seems the more answers and sources/links I give you the more you want to complicate the debate and demand more and more specific details knowing I don't know it as like I said it's easy to play that game and not ask the engineers at SurgeX yourselves. Just because I personally don't know and can't give you the intricate details of every little working component in their models has no bearing on the validity of SurgeX and their claims you refuse to ask them.


What I have done through out this debate is provide sources and evidence and still Colm and tom haven't provided one but to take the position to play dumb while not countering with any sources of their own. The only thing they think they got on me was when I made a very vague claim of: "SurgeX protects the Nasa Hubble Space Telescope." and to go to such extremes to try to trap me on that one very vague claim after all the other sources and sites I posted shows they really have nothing. lol Nothing I have posted is untrue, just some take it out of context.


----------



## oppopioneer

What's also apparent is since you can't mention a plug-in mov based device plugged in downstream that is superior to a SurgeX you only can compare a whole house surge protector versus a SurgeX downstream plug-in device.


I have never once bad mouthed a "whole house surge protector" and in fact I will get on put in eventually by a certified electrician.


----------



## AV Doogie

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* 
Just because "YOU" personally haven't seen SurgeX products in the Chicago/Milwaukee area doesn't mean they aren't widely used through out other markets and facilities through out the country.
You may be correct. But that does not change the fact that the series mode devices constitute a minority of installations in the business. Why is that?

Quote:

You also continue with this: "Whole house surge protector versus SurgeX" comparison and again for the 4th time this isn't about whole house surge protectors at the service entrance versus a rack mounted device. This is about plug-in devices connected directly to the equipment and why a mov based device is inferior.
I never indicated that the units you are selling are superior or inferior. Simply that they may have their place in a suppression scheme....but that the information provided by the manufacturer does not comply with industry standard tests. Why would I want to believe such information if the standard tests are not performed and therefore do not prove to me that these units perform as marketed. MOV based units which are installed in 'series' like your unit are not inferior...you simply believe such.

Quote:

There are also countless complaints and reports, reviews by customers who used mov based devices for their home theater like Panamax, Monster, APC, Triplite that suffered a catastrophic failure and the most common wording or phrasing is this: "My mov bit the bullet during a lightning storm."
Statistically, your information here is probably off base. Since the majority of the suppression units 'out there' are MOV based, and of possibly questionable design or capabilities, there will be more cited issues.

Quote:

You're also too scared to contact SurgeX yourself and ask them, instead you want to try to debate a amateur like me. I suggest you go over to Mike Holt's forum and talk to the engineers there who actually post publicly their real names, education, qualifications, resume. Now if you want to turn your nose up at Mike Holt well what is your qualifications and name?
I need to debate you because if you are an amateur like you say, then you should probably listen to all the pertinent information from multiple sources and then make a decision... instead of using one manufacturers marketing information as your basis for an informed decision. Please read the industry standards, try to understand them and then make a decision. I am trying to help you.

Quote:

So far AV Doogie, westom, Colm haven't posted any source to back up their opinions.

Industry guidelines are my source. The simple fact remains that you need to understand what you are discussing in order to make informed recommendations. A youtube video and a website are simply marketing avenues. Show me that the products you are touting can pass the industry standard tests which I have already posted. Additionally, for comparison sake, see the attached series installed MOV unit for test data. Does the SurgeX device have this test information posted anywhere?


The fact that you suggest

 

TVSS SM.pdf 186.513671875k . file


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19273073
> 
> 
> What's also apparent is since you can't mention a plug-in mov based device plugged in downstream that is superior to a SurgeX you only can compare a whole house surge protector versus a SurgeX downstream plug-in device.
> 
> 
> I have never once bad mouthed a "whole house surge protector" and in fact I will get on put in eventually by a certified electrician.




You are way too involved with this device, it has become personal!


I do not believe anyone has bad mouthed the devices you are discussing. I am merely looking for the information which would prove to me that this device actually performs as marketed. Without that information, I also dismiss a large number of the other manufacturers of MOV based devices as well.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19273331
> 
> 
> You may be correct. But that does not change the fact that the series mode devices constitute a minority of installations in the business. Why is that?



In what "business" is this and where is your proof of this?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19273331
> 
> 
> I never indicated that the units you are selling are superior or inferior. Simply that they may have their place in a suppression scheme....but that the information provided by the manufacturer does not comply with industry standard tests. Why would I want to believe such information if the standard tests are not performed and therefore do not prove to me that these units perform as marketed. MOV based units which are installed in 'series' like your unit are not inferior...you simply believe such.



I'm not selling any unit. You also still fail to mention why you won't contact SurgeX and ask them yourself. I can look at the official websites of many respected corporations that aren't posting extremely specific numbers.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19273331
> 
> 
> Statistically, your information here is probably off base. Since the majority of the suppression units 'out there' are MOV based, and of possibly questionable design or capabilities, there will be more cited issues.



SurgeX has been in the ProAV world and commercial world for years and only recently started making residential units. I would challenge you to find a SurgeX product that has failed either commercial, proav or residential. They have licensed "some" of their technology out to companies like ZeroSurge for sometime though.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19273331
> 
> 
> I need to debate you because if you are an amateur like you say, then you should probably listen to all the pertinent information from multiple sources and then make a decision... instead of using one manufacturers marketing information as your basis for an informed decision. Please read the industry standards, try to understand them and then make a decision. I am trying to help you.



I have contacted these companies directly such as SurgeX, Panamax, Furman, Monster, APC. SurgeX was the only company to give me the names and contact information for the electrical engineers who worked at the Kimmel Center and other high profile venues that installed SurgeX products and why they chose them. You can also get in contact with all these venues and find out why their design team and engineers worked with SurgeX. I doubt you will do so because playing games on the internet and trying to win debates is all you have. I'll give you the names and contact information of these engineers who have worked and currently work at these facilities and venues when you, westom, Colm post your own names and resume, places of work, education.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19273331
> 
> 
> Industry guidelines are my source. The simple fact remains that you need to understand what you are discussing in order to make informed recommendations. A youtube video and a website are simply marketing avenues. Show me that the products you are touting can pass the industry standard tests which I have already posted. Additionally, for comparison sake, see the attached series installed MOV unit for test data. Does the SurgeX device have this test information posted anywhere?



Yes SurgeX posts their UL 1449 Adjunct Classification Test Results for all their models and so does Bluejeans Cable another highly respected company that took on Monster's false advertising and outright propaganda:

http://www.surgex.com/products/su1000li.html 


You can also download pdf files on that page too.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19273366
> 
> 
> You are way too involved with this device, it has become personal!
> 
> 
> I do not believe anyone has bad mouthed the devices you are discussing. I am merely looking for the information which would prove to me that this device actually performs as marketed. Without that information, I also dismiss a large number of the other manufacturers of MOV based devices as well.



Actually it's people who defend MOV's who have taken over this thread and go to the ends of the earth to defend them without hard evidence and post the fewest sources and do it in a very disingenuous insincere way.


Just like westom, Colm you will attack the source after the information is given to you and deny it even exists or won't respond to it.


For example here is a SurgeX product that posts all of it's test results, you will act like a coward just like westom and Colm and find something to not like about this source as a way to try to save face.










SurgeX SU 1000Li - Surge Eliminator/Power Conditioner:

http://www.surgex.com/products/su1000li.html 


SPECIFICATIONS

AC Input

Number of Phases: Single (2W + G)

Power Cord: 6-ft. grounded, 3 wire, #14 line cord

Input Voltage (Acceptable Input Voltage): 120VAC (0 - 160VAC)

Input Voltage Range (Normal mode): 90 - 150VAC

DC Start Capability: Yes, (defaults to 60Hz)

Power Requirements (no load): 35 watts (charging), 15 watts (charged)


AC Output (Normal Mode)

Load Rating: 15 Amps @ 120 volts

Load Power Factor: 0.6

Outlets: 6 outlets (15 Amp) all with Advanced Series Mode surge elimination, 2 outlets with battery back-up

Output Frequency: Same as Input

Short Circuit Protection: Re-settable circuit breaker and electronically limited

Overload Capability: 110% - 5 minutes ≥120% - immediate shutdown

Output Voltage Regulation: 120VAC: -12.5% to +8.4%

Waveform: Same as Input

Boost Mode Voltage (Buck mode voltage): Nominal +16% (Nominal -14%)

Line Mode Voltage Range: 105 - 130VAC

Efficiency: Normal mode > 90%


AC Output (Battery Mode)

Capacity: 1000VA/600W

Back-up Run Time: 4 minutes 600W full load, 10.4 minutes 300W half load

Output voltage: Nominal 120VAC

Waveform: Stepped sine wave (simulated sine wave)

Topology: Single boost/buck line interactive, simulated sine wave

Battery Mode Voltage Regulation: Nominal ± 6% until LBW

Transfer Time: 6-10 ms

Output Frequency & Regulation: 50/60Hz ± 0.5Hz (Unless synchronized to utility)

Short Circuit Protection: Active electronic (current limit)


Batteries

Battery Rating: (2) 12V/7AH

Replacement: Hot swappable

Recharge Time: 8 hours to 90% after full load discharge



Surge Protection Specifications

Surge Protection: Advanced Series Mode® surge elimination

Surge Energy Rating: 6,000 volts/3,000 amps

Let through Voltage (6,000 volt surge): 0 volts

UL 1449 Adjunct Classification Test Results: 1000 surges, 6000 volts, 3000 amps, B3 pulse; Measured suppressed voltage: 170 volts; no failures.

Federal Guidelines: Grade A, Class 1, Mode 1 (CID A-A-55818)

EMI/RFI Filter, Normal Mode (50-ohm load): 40 dB @ 100 kHz; 50 dB @ 300 kHz; 50 dB @ 3 MHz; 50 dB @ 30 MHz

EMI/RFI Filter, Common Mode (50-ohm load): 18 dB @ 300 kHz; 30 dB @ 1 MHz; 50 dB @ 5 MHz; 50 dB @ 20 MHz

Maximum Applied Surge Voltage: 6000 volts*

Maximum Applied Surge Current: Unlimited, due to current limiting*

Maximum Applied Surge Energy: Unlimited, due to current limiting*

Endurance (C62.41-1991 Category B3 pulses): 1kV>500,000; 3 kV>10,000; 6 kV>1000


General Specifications

Warranty: (USA and Canada only) 10-year limited warranty

Battery Warranty: 2 years

Monitoring Software: Includes SentryPlus software

Communications: USB

Rack Size: 2U

Unit Dimensions (H x W x D): 3.5 x 19.0 x 10.5

Unit Weight (lbs.): 32.0 lbs.

Operating Temperature: 32°F to 104°F (up to 5,000 ft above sea level (0°C to +40°C (up to 1,500 meters above sea level)

Operating Elevation: 32°F to 95°F (5,001-10,000 ft above sea level (0°C to +35°C (1,501 to 3,000 meters above sea level)

Storage Temperature/Relative Humidity: 5°F to 113°F (-15°C to +45°C) / 0 - 95% non-condensing

Humidity Range: 5% to 95% R.H., non-condensing


* 1.2 x 50 μs pulse, industry standard combination wave surge, as per IEEE C62.41.


** Specifications subject to change without notice.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19273586
> 
> 
> In what "business" is this and where is your proof of this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 'business' is power quality and power system maintenance, protection and testing. I test equipment from a number of the major manufacturers which provide this type of equipment (Eaton, Square D, Siemens, GE and others...) which do not use this technology. Why is this the case? If the series mode technology is superior, why has it not been used by others?, or at least bought by the big guys???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I'm not selling any unit. You also still fail to mention why you won't contact SurgeX and ask them yourself. I can look at the official websites of many respected corporations that aren't posting extremely specific numbers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Conversely. Why don't you contact some of the above companies and ask them what they think of the series mode products?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> SurgeX has been in the ProAV world and commercial world for years and only recently started making residential units. I would challenge you to find a SurgeX product that has failed either commercial, proav or residential. They have licensed "some" of their technology out to companies like ZeroSurge for sometime though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can say the same thing about a number of MOV based units. I am quite certain that some of these products have failed at some time. It is a simple fact of life, electronics fail...either from age or abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I have contacted these companies directly such as SurgeX, Panamax, Furman, Monster, APC. SurgeX was the only company to give me the names and contact information for the electrical engineers who worked at the Kimmel Center and other high profile venues that installed SurgeX products and why they chose them. You can also get in contact with all these venues and find out why their design team and engineers worked with SurgeX. I doubt you will do so because playing games on the internet and trying to win debates is all you have. I'll give you the names and contact information of these engineers who have worked and currently work at these facilities and venues when you, westom, Colm post your own names and resume, places of work, education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And I could quote from personal experience where Ford Motor company, GMC and BMW use a different manufacturer of suppression equipment because their internal testing showed that a particular manufactured unit was found to function better in their environments. Your arguments are downright silly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Yes SurgeX posts their UL 1449 Adjunct Classification Test Results for all their models and so does Bluejeans Cable another highly respected company that took on Monster's false advertising and outright propaganda:
> 
> http://www.surgex.com/products/su1000li.html
> 
> 
> You can also download pdf files on that page too.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Thanks for providing the information. I will send it on to an engineer at the manufacturer who designs some of the suppression networks.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The 'business' is power quality and power system maintenance, protection and testing. I test equipment from a number of the major manufacturers which provide this type of equipment (Eaton, Square D, Siemens, GE and others...) which do not use this technology. Why is this the case? If the series mode technology is superior, why has it not been used by others?, or at least bought by the big guys???



You personally test equipment for major manufacturers? Can you be more specific? Do you work for a company that does this or own your own business or do this out of your spare time because you are interested in this technology? What are the names of the business you work or own?


Also, what is Eaton, Square D, Siemens, GE protecting and being used for? If they are being used at the servince entrance then I agree they would be surperior. How much do they cost and do they make residentual plug-in units for downstream applications? Again, I am refering to plug-in devices downstream that equipment is plugged directly into and why a SurgeX design is superior to a MOV based hybrid design that diverts from the neutral to the ground, which is also why the Pro AV world shuns mov devices to plug into.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Conversely. Why don't you contact some of the above companies and ask them what they think of the series mode products?



Well I challenged you, weston, Calm first to contact SurgeX, you won't. So I will assume the reason why these companies aren't using series mode products is because they aren't in the markets to make plug-in devices downstream for home theaters, recording studios that DSP's plug directly into. But it's already proven Dallas Cowboys Stadium, Yankee Stadium, Kimmel Center, Carnegie Hall, NASA's Hubble Telescope uplink use SurgeX products.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can say the same thing about a number of MOV based units. I am quite certain that some of these products have failed at some time. It is a simple fact of life, electronics fail...either from age or abuse.



Do you believe a SurgeX product has failed? Can you show me a SurgeX product that has failed?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And I could quote from personal experience where Ford Motor company, GMC and BMW use a different manufacturer of suppression equipment because their internal testing showed that a particular manufactured unit was found to function better in their environments. Your arguments are downright silly.



Often outside vendors are chosen not because they are higher quality but because of contracts, costs, profit to save costs, that's why there are so many recalls of automobiles whether it be brakes, transmission, electrical, airbags etc and also many of these products are made in China or other 3rd world countries in factories with people making around $85 cents an hour. SurgeX is made in the U.S.. Just recently a recalls of BMW and Rolls Royce has taken effect.


BMW recalls 350,000 cars, including Rolls-Royces:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...US-BMW-BRAKES/ 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for providing the information. I will send it on to an engineer at the manufacturer who designs some of the suppression networks.



Post his name and place of work or I'll just take you for a liar.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19274089
> 
> 
> You personally test equipment for major manufacturers? Can you be more specific? Do you work for a company that does this or own your own business or do this out of your spare time because you are interested in this technology? What are the names of the business you work or own?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I own my own company and we provide power system testing for commercial, industrial and institutional facilities. We typically provide acceptance testing of all the protective devices and distribution equipment for large facilities which incorporate equipment from the large manufacturers below (including the TVSS and SPD equipment). I am a partner consultant for http://midwestelectrical.com/ and http://highvoltageelectric.com/index.html . These sites can give you some information about the services we perform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Also, what is Eaton, Square D, Siemens, GE protecting and being used for? If they are being used at the servince entrance then I agree they would be surperior. How much do they cost and do they make residentual plug-in units for downstream applications? Again, I am refering to plug-in devices downstream that equipment is plugged directly into and why a SurgeX design is superior to a MOV based hybrid design that diverts from the neutral to the ground, which is also why the Pro AV world shuns mov devices to plug into.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In most cases, the facilities we work within have a cascade system using a service entrance suppression unit and then multiple levels of coordinated suppression protecting sensitive equipment downstream.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Well I challenged you, weston, Calm first to contact SurgeX, you won't. So I will assume the reason why these companies aren't using series mode products is because they aren't in the markets to make plug-in devices downstream for home theaters, recording studios that DSP's plug directly into. But it's already proven Dallas Cowboys Stadium, Yankee Stadium, Kimmel Center, Carnegie Hall, NASA's Hubble Telescope uplink use SurgeX products.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The big guys all make plug in units. These units are of varying design and build quality, but they do exist. The residential market for plug in units is probably not a profit center for a company the size of the big manufacturers. Although, they probably manufacture a number of residential units.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Do you believe a SurgeX product has failed? Can you show me a SurgeX product that has failed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but lets put this into perspective. SurgeX sells maybe a thousand units per year? I would expect the large manufacturers to each sell tens of thousands per year. So, the chances that a surgeX unit being hit by a damaging event are hundreds or thousands of times less likely. Wouldn't you agree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Often outside vendors are chosen not because they are higher quality but because of contracts, costs, profit to save costs, that's why there are so many recalls of automobiles whether it be brakes, transmission, electrical, airbags etc and also many of these products are made in China or other 3rd world countries in factories with people making around $85 cents an hour. SurgeX is made in the U.S.. Just recently a recalls of BMW and Rolls Royce has taken effect.
> 
> 
> BMW recalls 350,000 cars, including Rolls-Royces:
> 
> http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...US-BMW-BRAKES/
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Every manufacturer builds a product to meet a price point and margin. SurgeX is no different. My question still remains though. If this technology is so superior, why has not one of the major manufacturers or the industry taken notice and dropped the existing technologies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Post his name and place of work or I'll just take you for a liar.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Those are pretty strong words coming from a self proclaimed amateur.

The engineer works for IT and his name is Steve H.


----------



## Speedskater

This is from the SurgeX white paper on MOV shunt-mode devices:

_Shunt-mode devices must still be used when protection is needed at the building service

entrance, on system feeders, and on most forms of signal wiring (antennas, telephone

lines, audio lines). They can be used safely at the service entrance because in a

properly bonded installation, this point is the common point for all earth connections

within the building, so during a surge event, if the shunt device returns to the ground

common point for the building, the ground voltage for the entire building rises to about

the same level, so interconnected equipment does not see the strike voltage. The only

good (safe for equipment) place to install shunt mode devices is at the building's ground

point._


This white paper:
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf 


Many other Jim Brown papers:
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I own my own company and we provide power system testing for commercial, industrial and institutional facilities. We typically provide acceptance testing of all the protective devices and distribution equipment for large facilities which incorporate equipment from the large manufacturers below (including the TVSS and SPD equipment).



If you have the capability to test equipment for companies then have you ever done tests on a SurgeX product, which model and if not why not? You can take anyone of their models and perform your own tests on them and post the results here, whatever proper tests that you don't think SurgeX puts their models through you can perform. But if you do I ask you put a Panamax/Monster/APC/Triplite mov based product through the same tests and post the results. SurgeX does some demonstrations and tests at their booth at CEDIA and InfoComm for the world to see and anyone can walk up to them face to face and inspect what they are doing and if SurgeX denies and refuses them well anyone with a camera phone can record it and put it online for the world to see and completely humiliate SurgeX and ruin their reputation and sales.


SurgeX at InfoComm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RixUrc-FRcM 


SurgeX at CEDIA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PPxKzLKSrk 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am a partner consultant for http://midwestelectrical.com/ and http://highvoltageelectric.com/index.html . These sites can give you some information about the services we perform.



Yeah I don't know about that, I can post a link to a website and say I work there, there are too many posers and liars online, everyone on YouTube who watches a video of a Ferrari or Ducati motorcyle types a comment under the video as a self proclaimed expert on it and claims to have owned one or test them.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In most cases, the facilities we work within have a cascade system using a service entrance suppression unit and then multiple levels of coordinated suppression protecting sensitive equipment downstream.



I would love to have that for my house, but the thing is why don't they make a small residential plug-in unit you can plug your equipment into with that technology? These companies that use mov designs spend millions upon millions of dollars trying to protect a building and then to say these companies make a better product than a $500 dollar SurgeX product is nothing to brag about, in fact that's pathetic. And I challenge you to find a plug-in rack mounted mov based unit and compare it to a SurgeX rack mounted unit and see which allows in more surge energy and harmful contamination.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The big guys all make plug in units. These units are of varying design and build quality, but they do exist. The residential market for plug in units is probably not a profit center for a company the size of the big manufacturers. Although, they probably manufacture a number of residential units.



Like? Where are their residential plug-in units and how much do they cost? The thing with a SurgeX is their $600 dollar SurgeX SX1120RT unit used in the Cowboys' stadium you can also buy and get professional grade protection for DSP's to protect your flatscreen, reciever, amp, cable tv, bluray player, computer, as does recording studios and ProAv world that does not prefer mov's.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Every manufacturer builds a product to meet a price point and margin. SurgeX is no different. My question still remains though. If this technology is so superior, why has not one of the major manufacturers or the industry taken notice and dropped the existing technologies?



I would believe it's the same reason why most markets and companies don't change that quickly, they are slow to adapt to a changing world and it's very expensive to update and invest in new design concepts when you have decades or a century of a design that has had a centuries worth of evolution. Look at U.S. automakers and many automakers for that matter so slow to want to increase gas mileage drastically, still using single camshaft, 2 valve head engines and why oil companies are so slow or against to want to invest in hydrogen, biodiesel, solar power, wind mill power. It's often expensive to progress. And also it might put guys like you out of work or make companies you work for have to retrain or invest differently, so you are financially and professionally in a position to defend mov's and be biased towards them. But can you prove if every company/building, facility in the U.S. went to a SurgeX style protection system it will be disastrous or even see any negative effect other than their profit margins? SurgeX if they wanted to could make a whole house surge protector as mentioned in previous posts by people who aren't even fans of SurgeX but it would be expensive to use that technology, plus their expertise is small rack mounted style units and they are doing quite well too in that field as high profile exclusive projects seek them out.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Those are pretty strong words coming from a self proclaimed amateur.



I'm a proud amateur on a forum with closet amateurs who all claim to be expert engineers.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The engineer works for IT and his name is Steve H.



If IT uses mov style technology then why would he give a non-partisan unbiased opinion? It reminds me on some of the other website forums and this one about the fighting between Dolby, DTS, uncompressed, and you have the Dolby fan boys, DTS fan boys, uncompressed fanboys and everyone claims one format is superior to the other and sometimes we get actual former employees of Dolby on here who will criticize DTS. lol


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Speedskater* /forum/post/19275157
> 
> 
> This is from the SurgeX white paper on MOV shunt-mode devices:
> 
> _Shunt-mode devices must still be used when protection is needed at the building service
> 
> entrance, on system feeders, and on most forms of signal wiring (antennas, telephone
> 
> lines, audio lines). They can be used safely at the service entrance because in a
> 
> properly bonded installation, this point is the common point for all earth connections
> 
> within the building, so during a surge event, if the shunt device returns to the ground
> 
> common point for the building, the ground voltage for the entire building rises to about
> 
> the same level, so interconnected equipment does not see the strike voltage. The only
> 
> good (safe for equipment) place to install shunt mode devices is at the building's ground
> 
> point._



I agree with this and never disagreed. Whole house mov surge protectors are superior at protecting from out of house surges, where as a SurgeX product is superior at protecting equipment from in-house surges.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19275335
> 
> 
> If you have the capability to test equipment for companies then have you ever done tests on a SurgeX product, which model and if not why not? You can take anyone of their models and perform your own tests on them and post the results here, whatever proper tests that you don't think SurgeX puts their models through you can perform. But if you do I ask you put a Panamax/Monster/APC/Triplite mov based product through the same tests and post the results. SurgeX does some demonstrations and tests at their booth at CEDIA and InfoComm for the world to see and anyone can walk up to them face to face and inspect what they are doing and if SurgeX denies and refuses them well anyone with a camera phone can record it and put it online for the world to see and completely humiliate SurgeX and ruin their reputation and sales.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they would like to send me a unit, I would be happy to test. We have tested a number of other manufacturers you have listed. Some test well and some do not. The majority of the products do provide suppression at an acceptable level.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Yeah I don't know about that, I can post a link to a website and say I work there, there are too many posers and liars online, everyone on YouTube who watches a video of a Ferrari or Ducati motorcyle types a comment under the video as a self proclaimed expert on it and claims to have owned one or test them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You asked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I would love to have that for my house, but the thing is why don't they make a small residential plug-in unit you can plug your equipment into with that technology? These companies that use mov designs spend millions upon millions of dollars trying to protect a building and then to say these companies make a better product than a $500 dollar SurgeX product is nothing to brag about, in fact that's pathetic. And I challenge you to find a plug-in rack mounted mov based unit and compare it to a SurgeX rack mounted unit and see which allows in more surge energy and harmful contamination.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They do make units for residential use. For 500-600 bucks you can get some of the best units made for your main service panel. This is the point everyone is trying to make. Once the overvoltage gets past the main service, it can wreak havoc on all of the equipment in the house. Why spend that kind of money to protect just a couple of pieces of equipment? Install a unit at the main service to protect everything and then add units downstream to protect what you believe to be critical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Like? Where are their residential plug-in units and how much do they cost? The thing with a SurgeX is their $600 dollar SurgeX SX1120RT unit used in the Cowboys' stadium you can also buy and get professional grade protection for DSP's to protect your flatscreen, reciever, amp, cable tv, bluray player, computer, as does recording studios and ProAv world that does not prefer mov's.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> IT makes what is called an XT40 unit as well as three or four others. Square D makes a couple of units. Look them up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I'm a proud amateur on a forum with closet amateurs who all claim to be expert engineers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your proclamations are going to get you in trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> If IT uses mov style technology then why would he give a non-partisan unbiased opinion? It reminds me on some of the other website forums and this one about the fighting between Dolby, DTS, uncompressed, and you have the Dolby fan boys, DTS fan boys, uncompressed fanboys and everyone claims one format is superior to the other and sometimes we get actual former employees of Dolby on here who will criticize DTS. lol
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Back at you. Why would the SurgeX people give anyone using MOV style products a fair shake. Monster used to provide live demonstrations too. In their case, they were actually caught in the act. You apparently don't understand the ramifications of using 'only' a plug in device to protect equipment. The information is out there, you only need to find it.


The IT site, IEEE emerald book and other sources contain a great deal of information about this subject.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If they would like to send me a unit, I would be happy to test. We have tested a number of other manufacturers you have listed. Some test well and some do not. The majority of the products do provide suppression at an acceptable level.



Acceptable level? I think that is quite subjective and objectionable to many of the engineers on here and on Mike Holt's forum. But You wont buy a SurgeX product to test? Well why not contact them and ask them or go to one of their retailers and ask. Again you won't, you still haven't contacted them to ask them yourself, you just like those phonies westrom and Colm won't do anything but argue and fight all over this forum. You know you, westom, Colm all seem to be afraid of contacting SurgeX or any of SurgeX's clients, instead you want to fight on forums all day and act like Keith Olbermann: "naa naa I'm smarter than you are." lol You're intellectually dishonest frauds and you allow your biases to get in the way.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> They do make units for residential use. For 500-600 bucks you can get some of the best units made for your main service panel.



Again for the 10th time, this isn't about service panels and service entry, I'm talking about which one of those companies makes a better rack mount plug-in device or floor strip than SurgeX does.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is the point everyone is trying to make. Once the overvoltage gets past the main service, it can wreak havoc on all of the equipment in the house. Why spend that kind of money to protect just a couple of pieces of equipment? Install a unit at the main service to protect everything and then add units downstream to protect what you believe to be critical.



Oh jeez, you haven't read my posts. Even SurgeX agrees with you as Speedskater posted above, read what he posted and read my response.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IT makes what is called an XT40 unit as well as three or four others. Square D makes a couple of units. Look them up.



The XT40 is not a rack mount plug-in model you put in your home entertainment system and plug your electronics directly into. The SurgeX is. The XT40 is a service entrance whole house surge protector...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi.../t-806491.html 


02-16-07, 08:38 PM


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I use a whole house system (Innovative Technology XT40) installed at the main 200A panel and then MPR-SS units installed in the Middle atlantic rack power strips. Two levels of protection for sensitive equipment is recommended.



02-16-07, 08:38 PM


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My coax (which runs my whole house AV system) comes from the roof antenna and sat dishes running through an older Panamax unit.



Yup, a Panamax MOV fan boy, so you have a bias towards the Best Buy, Walmart, Staples, Office mov's. lol haha!

















02-16-07, 08:38 PM


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have never personally believed in the product warranty stuff. It seems to me that the manufacturers will find any/every excuse to get out of them anyway. But at least if the surge suppression above 'fails' , I can expect free replacements.



Well that's why SurgeX is just so offensive to you, a good product comes along that backs up it's warranty (10 years) and makes the mov fan boys get defensive. It's like telling a child that Santa Clause doesn't exist and like on this forum we have fans of Monster HDMI wires and buy those HDMI wires in Best Buy and fell for it and don't like people who tell them about Bluejeans or Oppo. Do you understand you are just like the sales reps in Best Buy and Circuit City who sell Monster products and mov devices? lol Oppo, Bluejeans and SurgeX make you look bad. lol











02-16-07, 08:38 PM


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Most TVSS brands work, but many have mediocre let through voltage ratings and poor design. I would put my money on a high quality unit installed at the main panel and then put a cheaper plug-in unit at sensitive equipment locations



Oh thank you so much! You know you're making this so easy for me.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your proclamations are going to get you in trouble.



Oh no! I guess my Poodle will have to be watch dog.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Back at you. Why would the SurgeX people give anyone using MOV style products a fair shake. Monster used to provide live demonstrations too. In their case, they were actually caught in the act. You apparently don't understand the ramifications of using 'only' a plug in device to protect equipment. The information is out there, you only need to find it.



lol you just dodged the question, I asked you straight up challenge question and you didn't answer, you spun it back onto me, again, can't you find a "engineer" who is certified who has no relationship with mov's or SurgeX technology? lol Maybe I should learn about Obama and I'll contact Democrat Nanci Pelosi for a non-partisan response. lol Yeah so you go send off the SurgeX numbers and stats to a mov engineer and expect back a non-biased opinion.


SurgeX isn't Monster, Monster is a company that has horrible business practices that sells a 5 foot long HDMI wire for $350 dollars and claims it out performs a $17 dollar Bluejeans cable or even a $5 dollar Monoprice cable while Bluejeans Cable posts it's UL results. I will say SurgeX is like Bluejeans and Monster is Monster like most mov residential plug-in models lol


Also, using a plug-in device that isn't mov based is superior at protecting connected equipment than using a mov based plug-in device for "inhouse" surges and especially better than using nothing at all. We're talking about "inhouse" surges here for rack mounted plug-in systems. MOV whole house surge protectors are obviously good protection for "out of house" surges.


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19275335
> 
> 
> Yeah I don't know about that, I can post a link to a website and say I work there, there are too many posers and liars online, everyone on YouTube who watches a video of a Ferrari or Ducati motorcyle types a comment under the video as a self proclaimed expert on it and claims to have owned one or test them.



You are correct. There are too many posers out there, and questioning the credentials of AV Doogie is certainly the right thing to do, even though he does post in a reasonably well balanced fashion.


I can certainly vouch for him, however (for all that may mean..) He is exactly what he says he is..


AVdoogie: I am sorry that I was unable to use your services for the review in August. The decision was to use in-house talent for the advisory board because Code for most of the DC cabling, power supplies, radiation hardness and tunnel low smoke zero halogen requirements are a tad off the wall.


There will eventually be reviews of the 13.5kv service...perhaps then?


Cheers, John


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jneutron* /forum/post/19276068
> 
> 
> You are correct. There are too many posers out there, and questioning the credentials of AV Doogie is certainly the right thing to do, even though he does post in a reasonably well balanced fashion.
> 
> 
> I can certainly vouch for him, however (for all that may mean..) He is exactly what he says he is..
> 
> 
> AVdoogie: I am sorry that I was unable to use your services for the review in August. The decision was to use in-house talent for the advisory board because Code for most of the DC cabling, power supplies, radiation hardness and tunnel low smoke zero halogen requirements are a tad off the wall.
> 
> 
> There will eventually be reviews of the 13.5kv service...perhaps then?
> 
> 
> Cheers, John




How have you been. I have not seen you posting lately.


When you own your own company, you wake up unemployed every day, try to give yourself a raise and then go to work for someone new.


Thanks for the referral... we have remained busy with local work, during the summer months it is nice to remain close to home.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19275953
> 
> 
> Acceptable level? I think that is quite subjective and objectionable to many of the engineers on here and on Mike Holt's forum. But You wont buy a SurgeX product to test? Well why not contact them and ask them or go to one of their retailers and ask. Again you won't, you still haven't contacted them to ask them yourself, you just like those phonies westrom and Colm won't do anything but argue and fight all over this forum. You know you, westom, Colm all seem to be afraid of contacting SurgeX or any of SurgeX's clients, instead you want to fight on forums all day and act like Keith Olbermann: "naa naa I'm smarter than you are." lol You're intellectually dishonest frauds and you allow your biases to get in the way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again for the 10th time, this isn't about service panels and service entry, I'm talking about which one of those companies makes a better rack mount plug-in device or floor strip than SurgeX does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh jeez, you haven't read my posts. Even SurgeX agrees with you as Speedskater posted above, read what he posted and read my response.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The XT40 is not a rack mount plug-in model you put in your home entertainment system and plug your electronics directly into. The SurgeX is. The XT40 is a service entrance whole house surge protector...
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi.../t-806491.html
> 
> 
> 02-16-07, 08:38 PM
> 
> 
> 02-16-07, 08:38 PM
> 
> 
> Yup, a Panamax MOV fan boy, so you have a bias towards the Best Buy, Walmart, Staples, Office mov's. lol haha!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 02-16-07, 08:38 PM
> 
> 
> Well that's why SurgeX is just so offensive to you, a good product comes along that backs up it's warranty (10 years) and makes the mov fan boys get defensive. It's like telling a child that Santa Clause doesn't exist and like on this forum we have fans of Monster HDMI wires and buy those HDMI wires in Best Buy and fell for it and don't like people who tell them about Bluejeans or Oppo. Do you understand you are just like the sales reps in Best Buy and Circuit City who sell Monster products and mov devices? lol Oppo, Bluejeans and SurgeX make you look bad. lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 02-16-07, 08:38 PM
> 
> 
> Oh thank you so much! You know you're making this so easy for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no! I guess my Poodle will have to be watch dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol you just dodged the question, I asked you straight up challenge question and you didn't answer, you spun it back onto me, again, can't you find a "engineer" who is certified who has no relationship with mov's or SurgeX technology? lol Maybe I should learn about Obama and I'll contact Democrat Nanci Pelosi for a non-partisan response. lol Yeah so you go send off the SurgeX numbers and stats to a mov engineer and expect back a non-biased opinion.
> 
> 
> SurgeX isn't Monster, Monster is a company that has horrible business practices that sells a 5 foot long HDMI wire for $350 dollars and claims it out performs a $17 dollar Bluejeans cable or even a $5 dollar Monoprice cable while Bluejeans Cable posts it's UL results. I will say SurgeX is like Bluejeans and Monster is Monster like most mov residential plug-in models lol
> 
> 
> Also, using a plug-in device that isn't mov based is superior at protecting connected equipment than using a mov based plug-in device for "inhouse" surges and especially better than using nothing at all. We're talking about "inhouse" surges here for rack mounted plug-in systems. MOV whole house surge protectors are obviously good protection for "out of house" surges.




As far as a response for the above...since you have no background in this field, pose as an amatuer with a surgex chip on his shoulder and apparently do not want to learn how this stuff works or what the industry standards are, .... I apparently can not help you.


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19276146
> 
> 
> How have you been. I have not seen you posting lately.



You've no idea how busy I've been..well, ok..maybe you do..










Cable trays, code, magnets, epoxy impregnation, 11 axis motion control, niobium tin, niobium ti, hts, 50 tesla solenoids....I will admit that it is fun..but it can be exhausting. Happy hour is such good medicine..











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19276146
> 
> 
> When you own your own company, you wake up unemployed every day, try to give yourself a raise and then go to work for someone new.



I "enjoy" the life of working for one boss, with a steady paycheck, and only have to worry about the techs doing the correct thing. (and trust me, I never worry about that, the techs here are the best, bar none..)


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19276146
> 
> 
> Thanks for the referral... we have remained busy with local work, during the summer months it is nice to remain close to home.



Sorry it didn't work out. Perhaps in the future.


Close to home...that sounds nice..I'll be across the pond this week, and I think the other pond end of month..and one very cold place looming.....










Sigh...well, somebody wants me..


Cheers, John


----------



## sm0k1nace

hey guys since i havent gotten any surge protectors for my vt25 yet, i have been recommended surgex but i called and asked and they were no help. plus theyre way too expensive. is there a good surge protector out there, cheap, and good quality? i just want it for my tv. i dont really care about my home theater since i have insurance on it. ill get the better surge protector next year. what exactly is a good one for just my 58"vt25?


thanks


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sm0k1nace* /forum/post/19295115
> 
> 
> hey guys since i havent gotten any surge protectors for my vt25 yet, i have been recommended surgex but i called and asked and they were no help. plus theyre way too expensive. is there a good surge protector out there, cheap, and good quality? i just want it for my tv. i dont really care about my home theater since i have insurance on it. ill get the better surge protector next year. what exactly is a good one for just my 58"vt25?
> 
> 
> thanks



Can you install a whole house unit at the main panel?


----------



## sm0k1nace

Its not my house, i just want a good cheap surge protector for my plasma thats all, its connected to a 20amp breaker


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sm0k1nace* /forum/post/19296279
> 
> 
> Its not my house, i just want a good cheap surge protector for my plasma thats all, its connected to a 20amp breaker



You get what you pay for, you can go down to Walmart and get a $30 dollar floor strip and hope that holds up.


For a 20amp breaker I would get the SurgeX SA15 http://imsproav.com/main/Search-Resu...hString=surgex 


SurgeX XF2 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004123J9C/...SIN=B004123J9C 


or the SurgeX SA82B http://imsproav.com/main/Search-Resu...hString=surgex


----------



## sm0k1nace

The third one is a broken link but how good is the first one you listed? Ecause im willkng to spend up to a 100 and that def fits the bdget


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sm0k1nace* /forum/post/19298388
> 
> 
> The third one is a broken link but how good is the first one you listed? Ecause im willkng to spend up to a 100 and that def fits the bdget



SurgeX doesn't make a product under $100. The lowest is around $220. They are all hand assembled inside the U.S.


Contact SurgeX and they can answer all your questions and direct you to a distributor closest in your area.

http://www.surgex.com/contactSurgeX.html


----------



## sm0k1nace

O sorry i didnt notice i thought it said 50 bucks, my bad.

Are there other power surges similar to suegex but cheaper thsn 200 bucks? What could be a good surge protector for less than 100 bucks?

I only want it for my tv thats all


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sm0k1nace* /forum/post/19298923
> 
> 
> O sorry i didnt notice i thought it said 50 bucks, my bad.
> 
> Are there other power surges similar to suegex but cheaper thsn 200 bucks? What could be a good surge protector for less than 100 bucks?
> 
> I only want it for my tv thats all



SurgeX is the only company that uses that patented technology. The closest company that uses "some" of SurgeX's technology is ZeroSurge, but SurgeX is a better product. ZeroSurge makes a product for $130 dollars called the ZeroSurge 2R7.5W http://www.zerosurge.com/twooutletmodels.cfm 


There is nothing you can get that will really protect your tv that sells anything near $100 bucks. They have some power strips in stores but those I would not trust to protect a nice tv, you can if you want, but I wouldn't. Remember, you get what you pay for. The product in the link above is the lowest and cheapest I would go for protection. That's the lowest priced product I would recommend. But I stick to SurgeX.


----------



## sm0k1nace

Man if i had cash on me to spare on a surge protecori would go with a surgex but their lowest is like 270 haha


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sm0k1nace* /forum/post/19298987
> 
> 
> Man if i had cash on me to spare on a surge protecori would go with a surgex but their lowest is like 270 haha



You can probably find something like this from Tripplite or others:

http://www.tripplite.com/en/products...xtSeriesID=825 or

http://www.tripplite.com/en/products...xtSeriesID=829 



You should look for models which carry the UL1449 3rd edition rating to ensure safety. If your television is fed from cable, I would make sure that the cable line is protected as well.


----------



## sm0k1nace

Yea i have cable as well, whichones of the one listed would be a good idea to look at?

Sorry to bother but im new to this


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sm0k1nace* /forum/post/19300701
> 
> 
> Yea i have cable as well, whichones of the one listed would be a good idea to look at?
> 
> Sorry to bother but im new to this




*Model: HT706TV or HT1210SAT3*



Both of these units have the recommended ratings, although any unit installed downstream from the main panel without suppression is simply a band aid.


----------



## sm0k1nace

I just want something thatll keep my tv safe for 4-6 months will this do?


----------



## sm0k1nace

Hey guys i went to my local ultimAte electronics store and bought the monster power blackout hdp650 for now, i know its monster and everything but i couldnt bare to see my tv connected to the wall anymore.

Ill look into the surge protectors given above within this 30 days since i can return it within that period of time


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sm0k1nace* /forum/post/19301714
> 
> 
> Hey guys i went to my local ultimAte electronics store and bought the monster power blackout hdp650 for now, i know its monster and everything but i couldnt bare to see my tv connected to the wall anymore.
> 
> Ill look into the surge protectors given above within this 30 days since i can return it within that period of time



Congratulations, I hope it lasts a long time and protects your tv.


----------



## sm0k1nace

I hope so too bro, is this a good temporary surge protector in your eyes? Because bestbuy has it for 95 and i made ultimate electronics lower it to 80 then ifound radioshak has it for 40 haha im having ultimate electronics match it later today.


Will this protector be good enough to help my tv and everythig connected live longer? Haha and i feel much better having t connected to that rather than the wall. What do yoy guys think of this surge protector for being a 7-maybe 8 month remporary one?


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sm0k1nace* /forum/post/19303259
> 
> 
> I hope so too bro, is this a good temporary surge protector in your eyes? Because bestbuy has it for 95 and i made ultimate electronics lower it to 80 then ifound radioshak has it for 40 haha im having ultimate electronics match it later today.
> 
> 
> Will this protector be good enough to help my tv and everythig connected live longer? Haha and i feel much better having t connected to that rather than the wall. What do yoy guys think of this surge protector for being a 7-maybe 8 month remporary one?



Like I said many times the SurgeX is the way to go for downstream plug-in protection. The type of surge suppressor you're getting is better than nothing. It also depends on what part of the country you live in, what type of neighborhood you live in and how many thunder lightning storms you get that stresses the mov. If I lived in Florida or a densely populated urban area with lots of apartments and townhouses on top of one another than I wouldn't trust that style of surge suppressor. Keep it for a few months and save your money and get a SurgeX.


----------



## sm0k1nace

Yea i hear ya, i live in massachusetts in a one family house, barely any tstorms.. So not a lot of thunder hopefully ill br fine


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sm0k1nace* /forum/post/19305169
> 
> 
> Yea i hear ya, i live in massachusetts in a one family house, barely any tstorms.. So not a lot of thunder hopefully ill br fine



Ok, that's a bit better, Massachusetts has some of the fewest number of thunder and lightning storms of any place in the U.S., plus suburban areas have more consistent and cleaner electricity than densely populated urban areas do


----------



## sm0k1nace

I didnt know that, good to know haha i hope this surge protector i got lasts with the help of the weather here haha


----------



## oppopioneer

The maps in the links below are pretty interesting and shows the places on earth that get the most number of lightning strikes. Central Africa is by far the heaviest and worst specifically in Congo.

http://askville.amazon.com/lightning...uestId=3738117 

http://thunder.msfc.nasa.gov/data/query/mission.png


----------



## jneutron

Oh man I HATE FRENCH KEYBOARDS!!. Where are the w, z, a and m??? And no delete key??? sheesh. one finger typing..where is da freaken at sign and quotes???



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19298262
> 
> 
> You get what you pay for



Indeed an accurate statement.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19298743
> 
> 
> SurgeX doesn't make a product under $100. The lowest is around $220. They are all hand assembled inside the U.S.



That would certainly explain the cost. Given large enough quantity they may go automated for cost.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19299147
> 
> 
> You should look for models which carry the UL1449 3rd edition rating to ensure safety. If your television is fed from cable, I would make sure that the cable line is protected as well.



Ditto. And, by protect cable, I think you mean a two port spd?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19301449
> 
> 
> Both of these units have the recommended ratings, although any unit installed downstream from the main panel without suppression is simply a band aid.



Agreed. At least with one in the panel, the peak current required of the downstream is limited by the romex resistance and the let through differential.


Boy, it is tough typing with one finger, my shoulder hurts?










Cheers,

jacques le foot







ze barefoot engineer


----------



## jbcain

just figured i'd chime in a little... I'm a journeyman lineman, and frankly put, there's nothing on this personal market that will stop full fault current. carry on.


----------



## TheaterChad

Quote:

Originally Posted by *jbcain* 
just figured i'd chime in a little... I'm a journeyman lineman, and frankly put, there's nothing on this personal market that will stop full fault current. carry on.
Well you took the effort to lay it down, why don't you put your beef where your gravy is......







Why don't you provide us with something we should be looking at.....










I have a 200 amp anti-surge protection system wired from the meter socket to my 200 amp panel for whole home protection as well as a seperate surge protect for my AV rack, we had a electrical strike that was one house away, and both my neighbors lost several tv's due to the lightning, and my 6 flat panel tv's and the rest of the house is rocking just fine, and everything was just fine after the surge of power that returned after power was out for a day and a half...


----------



## jbcain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TheaterChad* /forum/post/19469394
> 
> 
> Well you took the effort to lay it down, why don't you put your beef where your gravy is......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you provide us with something we should be looking at.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a 200 amp anti-surge protection system wired from the meter socket to my 200 amp panel for whole home protection as well as a seperate surge protect for my AV rack, we had a electrical strike that was one house away, and both my neighbors lost several tv's due to the lightning, and my 6 flat panel tv's and the rest of the house is rocking just fine, and everything was just fine after the surge of power that returned after power was out for a day and a half...



thats not fault current bro, thats over voltage.







voltage is easy to deal with. current, however is a whole other animal. a fault is something within our own power system. a voltage surge is "usually" a lightning strike etc which is dealt with a... dun dun dun... lightning arrestor







. that device simply provides a path to ground. god forbid you catch the second "wave" of a fault current on the way "back" from it's origin!


----------



## Colm

And what does fault current have to do with surge protection?


What would be the typical fault current possible to a typical single family residence?


----------



## jbcain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19469715
> 
> 
> And what does fault current have to do with surge protection?



we have far more "internal" issues than "external" (mother nature). ask me how i know??? that's right, i deal with this **** on the front line.


----------



## jbcain

**** it since you guys are bitching about lighting strikes.. here's some of our underground solutions for lighting strikes. http://www.tnb.com/pubint/docs/elastimold_surge.pdf 


you think your little ass surge arrestors even come close to our 200amp/7200volt+ surge arrestors? look at that ground.... it's basically equivalent to a 4/0awg piece of stranded copper. do you see one of those in your power strip? no.


----------



## jbcain

now anyone with common electrical sense/knowledge.. if we use a 4/0 for our 7200 system.. think of what you'd need on your 120 service.. lower voltage, hight amperage.. come on, work with me here folks.


----------



## jbcain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19469715
> 
> 
> And what does fault current have to do with surge protection?
> 
> 
> What would be the typical fault current possible to a typical single family residence?



we've recorded upwards of ~30,000amps of fault current at our circuit breakers (shwitzer gear) on single phase 1/0awg in a 7200v grounded wye system (12470). god forbid your house is the best path to ground at that point..

let's discuss a "neutral".... current carrying conductor at ground potential, right? think about it... think about a fault... think folks think


----------



## Colm

I don't get it. What does a bolted fault, which is what I would need to experience maximum fault current, have to do with a surge? They are both high current, the latter for microseconds (and handled adequately by appropriately sized MOVs connected to a low impedance ground), the former for much longer (at least until something gives). But what else do they have to do with each other?


----------



## jbcain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19469893
> 
> 
> I don't get it. What does a bolted fault, which is what I would need to experience maximum fault current, have to do with a surge? They are both high current, the latter for microseconds (and handled adequately by appropriately sized MOVs connected to a low impedance ground), the former for much longer (at least until something gives). But what else do they have to do with each other?



if you think a lighting strike AND a fault are both current based, you REALLY need to study some more. lightning strike is a pure voltage push.


----------



## Colm

Gee, you are really helpful. You don't answer a single question to support your claims (but thanks for the information on fault current). I guess you are incapable of doing so. All you do is insult people. No where else to do that? I guess you get insulted a lot at work and have to take it out somewhere.


----------



## jbcain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19471324
> 
> 
> Gee, you are really helpful. You don't answer a single question to support your claims (but thanks for the information on fault current). I guess you are incapable of doing so. All you do is insult people. No where else to do that? I guess you get insulted a lot at work and have to take it out somewhere.



i guess me telling you that we use a 4/0awg stranded copper ground (2 one in each direction) to try and suppress a full blown fault at 7200v in a grounded wye system isn't clear enough? what do you think the amp in-rush will be at 120 volts? 60x... right? well, basically what i'm saying, is that a fault is FAR MORE detrimental to equipment at any level. faults take any and ALL paths to ground. there is no mov or inline gizzy that's going to stop it. if our system neutral gets compromised, guess what, you're next. same with lightning strikes, we provide quite a few paths to ground IE system neutral return to the x0 bushing at the station transformer, ground rods in our padmount xformers or pole grounds on our poles (equipped with overhead transformers) all with 25ohms or less of resistance, lightning arrestors be it elbow style (underground implementation) or lighting arrestors (overhead apparatus), and a couple other trick setups that we won't get into. this are all well and dandy, assuming the strike or fault occurs within these devices so they can suppress, but assuming the strike or fault occurs at the cosumers' end, game over. there is nothing that will stop either of these, period. something is going to get burned in the clear, weakest link FIRST.


----------



## Colm

Well, finally, a somewhat useful post...


No question that a bolted fault is going to cause nasty things to happen. Current can certainly be on the order of a couple orders of magnitude larger than normal, limited only by the transformer and the impedance of the wiring. No question that a direct lightning strike at the site is going to cause nasty things to happen. Yes, a lightning strike is high voltage. It is also the best approximation of a perfect current source we have. But no one in this thread, I think, or any other thread on surge protection has claimed, AFAIK, that a surge protective device is going to protect against a direct strike. No question that protecting against a bolted fault is different than protecting against a surge. But then, this thread isn't about protecting against bolted faults.


It is interesting that the testing specified by IEEE for the kind of surge protective devices consumers use is limited in its voltage range. Supposedly it is because there will be arc-over in the service entrance or panel because of the spacing of the components, limiting the maximum voltage that will be seen down stream.


The 25 ohms impedance to ground you mentioned is also interesting. I don't know the relationship between utility grounding and residential grounding for surge protection. I suspect that utility facilities can withstand much more abuse than residential. NEC calls for 25 ohms or less impedance to ground for residences for safety purposes. Some experts on surge protection I have read say that a much lower impedance is required for good surge protection, on the order of an ohm or two.


FWIW the 42mm MOVs in my house's whole-house surge protective device have a similar surge current rating to the high voltage versions used by utilities, about 40KA. The difference between the two is that the utility versions have higher MCOV required by the higher voltage the lines are carrying, which is a function of the thickness of the MOV.


----------



## jbcain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19471677
> 
> 
> Well, finally, a somewhat useful post...
> 
> 
> No question that a bolted fault is going to cause nasty things to happen. Current can certainly be on the order of a couple orders of magnitude larger than normal, limited only by the transformer and the impedance of the wiring. No question that a direct lightning strike at the site is going to cause nasty things to happen. Yes, a lightning strike is high voltage. It is also the best approximation of a perfect current source we have. But no one in this thread, I think, or any other thread on surge protection has claimed, AFAIK, that a surge protective device is going to protect against a direct strike.
> 
> 
> It is interesting that the testing specified by IEEE for the kind of surge protective devices consumers use is limited in its voltage range. Supposedly it is because there will be arc-over in the service entrance or panel because of the spacing of the components, limiting the maximum voltage that will be seen down stream.
> 
> 
> The 25 ohms impedance to ground you mentioned is also interesting. I don't know the relationship between utility grounding and residential grounding for surge protection. I suspect that utility facilities can withstand much more abuse than residential. NEC calls for 25 ohms or less impedance to ground for residences for safety purposes. Some experts on surge protection I have read say that a much lower impedance is required for good surge protection, on the order of an ohm or two.
> 
> 
> FWIW the 42mm MOVs in my house's whole-house surge protective device have a similar surge current rating to the high voltage versions used by utilities, about 40KA. The difference between the two is that the utility versions have higher MCOV required by the higher voltage the lines are carrying, which is a function of the thickness of the MOV.



the likely hood of ever seeing less than 5ohms resistance at any ground source (sans being in the substation) is little to none. couple that with someones specific location in the country (bearing your dirt quality and climate) really makes it near impossible to achieve that. the debate on lightning strikes can go on and on. in REALITY, our lightning arrestors take the over voltage to ground. but in theory, current travels to ground not voltage. so there in lies another discrepancy! see what we get to see on a daily basis, i still stand by my notion that there is no stopping a strike or fault if it deems your equipment to be the least resistive path to ground. we can talk theory and sales pitches all day, reality trumps all of it. i'm also currently in school for my ee so we can play both sides of the field and definitely talk some theory


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jbcain* /forum/post/19471777
> 
> 
> ...there is no stopping a strike or fault if it deems your equipment to be the least resistive path to ground...



No argument there, except I think you mean lowest impedance. That is precisely what a MOV-based surge protective device is supposed to provide for surges, assuming it is attached to a low impedance path to ground. Best place for it is at the service entrance so the surge cannot find its own path to ground somewhere downstream inside your house.


And yes, it can be troublesome to create a low impedance ground.


----------



## jbcain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19471937
> 
> 
> No argument there, except I think you mean lowest impedance. That is precisely what a MOV-based surge protective device is supposed to provide for surges, assuming it is attached to a low impedance path to ground. Best place for it is at the service entrance so the surge cannot find its own path to ground somewhere downstream inside your house.
> 
> 
> And yes, it can be troublesome to create a low impedance ground.



they mean exactly the same thing. equipment is rated in impedance, paths are resistive. regardless, in short, i'm simply stating that there is NO ONE piece of mov that will have a great enough path to ground to take the WHOLE 100% brunt from a strike or fault. when we ground overhead lines, we establish a clearance(s) point(s) and install grounds that are usually 4/0awg in size. we are still to understand that in an event of a contact with a still energized line or lightning strike that we are still an alternate path to ground and that electricity takes any and ALL paths to ground. the only way to avoid this is equipotential grounding and i don't believe i've ever seen that for end users yet


----------



## razr67




> Quote:
> they mean exactly the same thing. equipment is rated in impedance, paths are resistive.



resistance is one component of impedance. They're not the same thing.


----------



## jbcain

do we really want to get into definitions and theory here ? yes, impedance is the resistance of a component at a given freq... anything else?


----------



## razr67

It might help you if you knew them


----------



## jbcain

theory me up avid internet reader


----------



## razr67

If you really don't know the difference between impedance and resistance, maybe you should do some more studying on your own?


----------



## jbcain

in this talk currently they are being used loosely. solidify your credentials.


----------



## razr67

Post your creds, before demanding mine.....loosely must be your term for, "i don't really know".


----------



## jbcain

i already did. journeyman lineman and in school for EE. if you're an engineer then of course you're going to pinpoint the minute things during any conversation in your field. for the basic end reader, it's meaningless.


----------



## razr67




> Quote:
> if you're an engineer



I am, and I see that you're not...which explains the poor understanding you exhibit.


----------



## jbcain

haha. right on. good luck behind the computer


----------



## razr67

Good luck in your moms basement.


----------



## jbcain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *razr67* /forum/post/19472438
> 
> 
> I am, and I see that you're not...which explains the poor understanding you exhibit.



more or less my ability to communicate with people that are not exposed to the detailed side of any certain subject. don't confuse that with stupidity


----------



## jbcain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *razr67* /forum/post/19472452
> 
> 
> Good luck in your moms basement.



yes, making 6 figures yearly leaves that as my only option


----------



## jbcain

instead of picking apart minor details that didn't exactly change the outcome of anything, post up your thoughts and beliefs on this whole subject. you are the engineer and all...


----------



## razr67

Your ability to communicate is poor, condescension and communications are not the same thing.

Your understanding of this topic is dubious at best.

We don't generally count the numbers after the decimal point when talking about a '6 figure salary'. People who brag about '6 figures' typically are unemployed....and live in their moms basement









Instead of being a condescending prick, why don't you post accurate facts? you might gain some respect.


----------



## jbcain

i put up my real world facts. your post are more useless than mine.


----------



## razr67




> Quote:
> i put up my real world facts.



No, no facts in your post..



> Quote:
> you're post are more useless than mine.



You are post are more useless than mine









LOL


----------



## jbcain

wow, now it's the English police. i'm pretty sure this is about all you're good for. prove us wrong, add your knowledge.


----------



## razr67




> Quote:
> i'm pretty sure this is about all you're good for.



I guess I have one up on you then


----------



## jbcain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *razr67* /forum/post/19472571
> 
> 
> No, no facts in your post..



now you're saying you know more about my job than me? humoring. typical internet know it all. drum up your real life experiences and knowledge and share them. you've still yet to provide any info or thoughts.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *razr67* /forum/post/19472544
> 
> 
> People who brag about '6 figures' typically are unemployed....



May be bad form, but with a full time union job, it is not that odd. My brother got time and a half, double time, or triple time for any work outside of his regular hours, depending on the circumstances, in his union job. He always volunteered for holidays. It added up quick. Years ago, lower level technology geeks at a well know company I worked for were making $90,000 on a base salary of around $50,000 because of overtime, and they weren't even union.


Of course, salary doesn't necessarily have anything to do with competence in a particular subject.


----------



## oppopioneer

You're best bet for all of you is a SurgeX for downstream surge elimination at the wall circuit amp.


----------



## TheaterChad

Quote:

Originally Posted by *jbcain* 
i put up my real world facts. your post are more useless than mine.
You made a point that is basically useless, what your talking about has never happened here in my local area in well over 50 years, where any serious damage has happened to a large number of homes.


Stop being a troll and be supportive, your actions are young and ignorant, any grown adult would not act this way, as the thread states, give some suggestions, or a moderator will deal with you.


Now this thread is about surge protection, lets get some suggestions.....


----------



## Neurorad

Cain, grow up.


----------



## Marbles_00

@KinsyJosh14,


Dude, this thread was a poor excuse to explain the choice of "SURGE PROTECTION". Yeah it went totally sideways and upside down with all the inappropriate posts and insults, but if you read between all the slander, there is some knowledge here (read really far between the posts, heh). But you asking about software firewalls? Are you kidding me? And your claiming to be Einstein (Einstein or not...you know where I'm going with that)? People here have mentioned about other posters being trolls and all, but the biggest one appears to be you. Your post is more appropriate in the HTPC forum, or some other computer forum...it doesn't have anything to do with Tweak and DIY.


I was going to go as far and say that your a SPAMMER. But I see your two other posts commenting in other threads which appear to be pretty legit, so I will just say...wrong thread to post in...or in the very least, start a new thread asking about firewalls.


Hey, maybe I'm totally off base...maybe a software firewall is the ultimate SURGE PROTECTOR to protect against lightening strikes. Everyone, all we need to do is load Zonealarm, and we will be totally protected against surge strikes. Stup...oh never m*i*n*d*.


----------



## pakishazi

Looks like this thread went way off topic but I wanted to see if someone could recommend a cheap and good enough surge protector for the 55 inch Sony NX810 that will be arriving at my house soon. My first HDTV so don't have experience with surge protection but was told I needed to get one.


Thanks in advance!


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pakishazi* /forum/post/19611631
> 
> 
> Looks like this thread went way off topic but I wanted to see if someone could recommend a cheap and good enough surge protector for the 55 inch Sony NX810 that will be arriving at my house soon.



Best protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. Will even earth direct lightning strikes and not fail.


What a protector must do: first no protector does protection. Not one. An effective protector connects short to what must always exist to have surge protection - single point earth ground. Where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.


Only a 'whole house' protector does that. Anyplace where damage can never happen - your telephone Central Office, commercial broadcasting stations, cell phone towers, munitions dumps - a 'whole house' protector always connects surges short to the best earth ground. And power strip protectors are not used.


You can have same. You asked for the cheapest solution. That is it. And also the superior solution. Purchasing them from more responsible companies such as ABB, Square D, General Electric, Intermatic, Leviton, Siemens, and others. An effective Cutler-Hammer solution sells in both Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. That's it. Either a protector connects short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point ground - where energy dissipates. Or a protector does not even list protection in its numeric specs.


A minimally sized 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Because a direct lightning strike is are typically 20,000 amps. Your protector must make direct lightning strikes and all lesser surges irrelevant. That solution also costs many times less money.


Maybe seven reasons why an effective solution is the superior, best, and less expensive solution answers your question. Or how it was done even 100 years ago.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pakishazi* /forum/post/19611631
> 
> 
> Looks like this thread went way off topic but I wanted to see if someone could recommend a cheap and good enough surge protector for the 55 inch Sony NX810 that will be arriving at my house soon. My first HDTV so don't have experience with surge protection but was told I needed to get one.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!



SurgeX makes the best http://surgex.com/ 


The affordable SurgeX models are:


SurgeX SA82

SurgeX SA966

SurgeX SA15

SurgeX SA1810


IMS Pro A/V has the best prices on SurgeX:
http://imsproav.com/main/Search-Resu...=1291789090084 


I would stay away from all the brands from Best Buy, Walmart, Office Max etc, those use fragile mov's which will fail if they recieve a certain level of surge or multiple surges over time.


----------



## pakishazi

I actually have one of these laying around the house:

Belkin BE112230-08 12 Outlet Home/Office Surge Protector with Telephone and Coaxial Protection


Do you think that will do the trick? It doesn't say it is meant specifically for TVs but it is up to 3940 joules. What do you guys think?


I can't post the amazon link because I don't have enough posts yet.


----------



## G-Rex

Anyone here ever lose an Advanced Series mode SurgeX or Furman It-Reference or its connected equipment to a surge? I doubt it, but would like to know. I have been using the big It-Ref for years and love it. Also BrickWalls. Just started purchasing some SurgeX devices...very nice. You get what you pay for here as you will see with little to no reports of the above failure and damage. Supplementing these units with a wholehouse protector is a no brainer and gives additional peace of mind.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Rex* /forum/post/19613255
> 
> 
> Anyone here ever lose an Advanced Series mode SurgeX or Furman It-Reference or its connected equipment to a surge? I doubt it, but would like to know. I have been using the big It-Ref for years and love it. Also BrickWalls. Just started purchasing some SurgeX devices...very nice. You get what you pay for here as you will see with little to no reports of the above failure and damage. Supplementing these units with a wholehouse protector is a no brainer and gives additional peace of mind.



Thank you! Exactly!


SurgeX is the best at downstream protection at the power outlet and you want a whole house surge protector at the service entrance.


G Rex which SurgeX models do you own?


I personally like the SurgeX XR315 and the SX1115RT.


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Rex* /forum/post/19613255
> 
> 
> Supplementing these units with a wholehouse protector is a no brainer and gives additional peace of mind.




Actually, that's sort of backwards, IMO. Whole house should come first, then supplemental, but the latter likely is unnecessary if you have whole house.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19613582
> 
> 
> Actually, that's sort of backwards, IMO. Whole house should come first, then supplemental, but the latter likely is unnecessary if you have whole house.



Actually, even with a whole house surge protector surges still get through but you also have internal surges through out the house. The best way to protect connected electronics directly is right at the outlet with a SurgeX surge eliminator that is a non-based mov unit.


Whole house surge protectors do work but they use mov's and those units should be replaced every 2 to 5 years depending on what part of the country you're in and the average number of lightning strikes it gets, but also in what type of neighborhood and power supply the city produces. Areas that get the most number of lightning strikes a year according to the NASA map is the southeast and Florida. Areas that get the most inconsistent electricity is in densely packed urban areas right in the city where apartments are stacked on top of one another that is often considered "dirty power". Places with the most consistent power (cleaner power) is often way out in the suburbs in single family homes with good size property seperating the houses.


It is best to get double protection - Whole house surge protector right at the service entrance and a downstream surge eliminator at the outlet that you plug your electronics into.


----------



## pakishazi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pakishazi* /forum/post/19612274
> 
> 
> I actually have one of these laying around the house:
> 
> Belkin BE112230-08 12 Outlet Home/Office Surge Protector with Telephone and Coaxial Protection
> 
> 
> Do you think that will do the trick? It doesn't say it is meant specifically for TVs but it is up to 3940 joules. What do you guys think?
> 
> 
> I can't post the amazon link because I don't have enough posts yet.



Anyone able to help me out with this inquiry? I greatly appreciate it.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19613755
> 
> 
> Whole house surge protectors do work but they use mov's and those units should be replaced every 2 to 5 years depending on what part of the country you're in and the average number of lightning strikes it gets, but also in what type of neighborhood and power supply the city produces. Areas that get the most number of lightning strikes a year according to the NASA map is the southeast and Florida. Areas that get the most inconsistent electricity is in densely packed urban areas right in the city where apartments are stacked on top of one another that is often considered "dirty power". Places with the most consistent power (cleaner power) is often way out in the suburbs in single family homes with good size property seperating the houses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What publication indicated that the 'MOV' based suppressors need to be replaced every 2-5 years. I would like to see the industry based source for this info. In other words, this is hogwash. Properly sized and UL recognized equipment should not have a problem lasting 10-20 years.
> 
> 
> As far as inconsistent electricity....not all sections of the US are similar. For instance, in and near Chicago (northern Illinois), the electrical supply is very consistent and plentiful. Whereas in the northeast and west coast, there is a definite problem with supply/demand and system outages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> It is best to get double protection - Whole house surge protector right at the service entrance and a downstream surge eliminator at the outlet that you plug your electronics into.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


...always a good idea


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pakishazi* /forum/post/19613918
> 
> 
> Anyone able to help me out with this inquiry? I greatly appreciate it.



Does the unit have the recognized UL 1449 3rd edition rating?


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Rex* /forum/post/19613255
> 
> 
> Anyone here ever lose an Advanced Series mode SurgeX or Furman It-Reference or its connected equipment to a surge? I doubt it, but would like to know. I have been using the big It-Ref for years and love it. Also BrickWalls. Just started purchasing some SurgeX devices...very nice. You get what you pay for here as you will see with little to no reports of the above failure and damage. Supplementing these units with a wholehouse protector is a no brainer and gives additional peace of mind.




The reason you don't hear of these units failing as often is due to the fact that they are never installed at the service entrance of a facility where the incoming energy level is the highest. Additionally, these types of devices make up probably 2% of the installed base of suppression equipment. Not a big number of devices compared to 'MOV' based devices.


----------



## whoaru99

I wonder how the UL tests work...with the surge protector connected to a good, low impedance path to ground, or when it's connected to typical house wiring with say 50ft of 14ga wire as the ground path?


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19614243
> 
> 
> I wonder how the UL tests work...with the surge protector connected to a good, low impedance path to ground, or when it's connected to typical house wiring with say 50ft of 14ga wire as the ground path?



The UL tests are performed with short connections to a grounding source device. The standard for many products is to use 6" leads.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19613755
> 
> 
> Actually, even with a whole house surge protector surges still get through but you also have internal surges through out the house.



That is an urban myth resulting from years of marketing hype from surge protective device manufacturers applying information about commercial and industrial facilities to homes. You do have transients generated through out the house. Most of these are well below the inherent ability of electronic equipment to withstand. There are relatively few potential sources of damaging surges in the typical house, mostly things with motors. The biggest potential one in most houses is an air conditioning compressor. But then that is usually on a separate circuit and a whole-house device will deal just fine to deal with it.


> Quote:
> Whole house surge protectors do work but they use mov's and those units should be replaced every 2 to 5 years



Nonsense. A properly sized whole house MOV based surge protective device (say 50KA) is easily good for 10 years or more.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pakishazi* /forum/post/19613918
> 
> 
> Anyone able to help me out with this inquiry? I greatly appreciate it.



As you can see, surge protection is a contentious issue.


Use the device you have and enjoy your set.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19614234
> 
> 
> ...these types of devices make up probably 2% of the installed base of suppression equipment.



Probably far less than 1%...


----------



## Neurorad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19614212
> 
> 
> Does the unit have the recognized UL 1449 3rd edition rating?



Does the 3rd edition include point of use surge strips, or does it only apply to the service entrance location?


I think he's asking if his surge strip will be good.


Ah, found this brief from Siemens

http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/intern...%20Revised.pdf 


Yes, UL 1449 Third Edition covers surge strips!


Looks like Stage 1 and Stage 2 have been replaced with SPD 1-4.


----------



## Neurorad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pakishazi* /forum/post/19613918
> 
> 
> Anyone able to help me out with this inquiry? I greatly appreciate it.



Yes, that surge strip will be OK.


A new surge strip will be better, one marked with 'UL 1449 3rd Edition Tested/Approved'


A new surge strip, plus a whole-house SPD (surge protection device) (installed at the service entrance) would be better.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19614234
> 
> 
> The reason you don't hear of these units failing as often is due to the fact that they are never installed at the service entrance of a facility where the incoming energy level is the highest. Additionally, these types of devices make up probably 2% of the installed base of suppression equipment. Not a big number of devices compared to 'MOV' based devices.



Can you prove that by posting a source/link to the sales of the companies? I've talked to the founder of SurgeX and he's said there are literally hundreds of thousands that have been sold the last decade. Michael McCook is the founder of SurgeX. People make a lot of unfounded claims on here without backing up their claims with evidence/sources.


SurgeX is used at professional sports stadiums nation wide (New Dallas Cowboys Stadium, new Yankee Stadium, every pro-sports facility in Philly to name a few) plus at Carnegie Hall, Kimmel Center, Paramount Studios for on location production, used by NASA to protect the uplink of the Hubble Space Telescope, professional recording studios. The pro-audio world demands SurgeX Advanced Series Mode technology over mov's.


New Dallas Cowboys Stadium uses SurgeX:


QUOTE: "SurgeX was specified for surge elimination and power conditioning for the main racks, FOH racks, and every remote rack location protecting the sensitive DSP, hubs and other peripheral equipment. A total of 44 SurgeX SX1120-RT were used throughout the venue. Everything else is a TVSS surge suppressor, SurgeX is the only complete surge eliminator, 0 voltage let through on worst case surge of 6000Volts, 3000amps. Projects like this have to have the very best."

http://www.listentech.com/blog/Dalla...lights-Listen/ 

http://www.surgex.com/news.html


----------



## oppopioneer

Also, I would like to see a test done by anyone who claims mov based devices that are plugged in downstream that the mov inside can withstand a 6000 volt surge. SurgeX has already proven at many shows (CEDIA) that their products can withstand litterally thousands upon thousands of 6000 volt surges, and they've blown up quite a few of the Chinese made Panamax's, APC'S, Tripplite's etc that can't even withstand surges under 6000 volts that are mov based. SurgeX are made in the U.S. with a 11 year warranty, while the Panamax's, APC's, Triplite's are made in China in undisclosed factories. Can any of you post the location and name's of the factories in China and their quality control that make these mov suppressors?


MOV based surge suppressors are NOT to be used downstream at the outlet, they are suppose to be used at the service entrance, that's the point.


Again, people get confused, I NEVER said mov based devices should never be used, they need to be avoided downstream.


----------



## oppopioneer

This has already been discussed on here, and most the people on here who defend mov based devices have either worked for companies that sell mov based devices or currently install them and have never used a SurgeX product and never did a back to back comparison and shot a 6000 volt surge through both.


----------



## HFXguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19614868
> 
> 
> This has already been discussed on here, and most the people on here who defend mov based devices have either worked for companies that sell mov based devices or currently install them and have never used a SurgeX product and never did a back to back comparison and shot a 6000 volt surge through both.



So the owner/salesman from SurgeX is a better source?


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HFXguy* /forum/post/19615023
> 
> 
> So the owner/salesman from SurgeX is a better source?



I posted my source, you can call Michael McCook: 1-267-251-6119


Also, any ceo of a major international respected company that is used by NASA isn't going to lie and make up claims he can't back up, don't be naive.


SurgeX Wins Prestigious Global Technology Achievement Award. The award was presented at Integrated Systems Europe 2010. ISE is an InfoComm International organization:


Michael McCook pictured: http://www.internationalaudiogroup.com/surgex.php 


Who is your source? I posted mine. If this just turns into a immature back and forth fight I won't respond, just post a link/source or I'll just move on.


----------



## Colm

Say, didn't you say some time ago that he was going to post here and set everybody straight? What ever happened to that?


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19615165
> 
> 
> Say, didn't you say some time ago that he was going to post here and set everybody straight? What ever happened to that?



You seem to not be here for serious discussion, you seem to care more about some "gotcha" moment to bait people into silly juvenile back and forth fights about who is smarter and I notice you don't back up anything you say with any sources, sort of like kids in their parent's basements who sit on YouTube all day fighting under the comments section about who is the expert on the video that is being played. lol I'll move on. Bye


----------



## HFXguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19615070
> 
> 
> I posted my source, you can call Michael McCook: 1-267-251-6119
> 
> 
> Also, any ceo of a major international respected company that is used by NASA isn't going to lie and make up claims he can't back up, don't be naive.
> 
> 
> SurgeX Wins Prestigious Global Technology Achievement Award. The award was presented at Integrated Systems Europe 2010. ISE is an InfoComm International organization:
> 
> 
> Michael McCook pictured: http://www.internationalaudiogroup.com/surgex.php
> 
> 
> Who is your source? I posted mine. If this just turns into a immature back and forth fight I won't respond, just post a link/source or I'll just move on.



First, I have never expressed my opinion on which is better.


Second, Who is being naive? There is an old joke, How do you know when a salesman is lying? When his lips are moving.


It is just funny how you will not believe one manufacturer but believe another.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HFXguy* /forum/post/19615247
> 
> 
> Second, Who is being naive? There is an old joke, How do you know when a salesman is lying? When his lips are moving.
> 
> 
> It is just funny how you will not believe one manufacturer but believe another.



Well prove he's lying or isn't telling the truth. I posted a link/source of SurgeX Wins Prestigious Global Technology Achievement Award. The award was presented at Integrated Systems Europe 2010. ISE is an InfoComm International organization. Now why would a world renowned organization give a award to someone that isn't trust worthy or fudged the numbers? Now you'll probably respond back with something like: "Well ahh um they probably give out awards to all sorts of stupid companies that lie." lol


Where's your proof that he's lied or hasn't been honest with his product?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HFXguy* /forum/post/19615247
> 
> 
> How do you know when a salesman is lying? When his lips are moving.



?


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19614848
> 
> 
> Can you prove that by posting a source/link to the sales of the companies? I've talked to the founder of SurgeX and he's said there are literally hundreds of thousands that have been sold the last decade. Michael McCook is the founder of SurgeX. People make a lot of unfounded claims on here without backing up their claims with evidence/sources.
> 
> 
> SurgeX is used at professional sports stadiums nation wide (New Dallas Cowboys Stadium, new Yankee Stadium, every pro-sports facility in Philly to name a few) plus at Carnegie Hall, Kimmel Center, Paramount Studios for on location production, used by NASA to protect the uplink of the Hubble Space Telescope, professional recording studios. The pro-audio world demands SurgeX Advanced Series Mode technology over mov's.
> 
> 
> New Dallas Cowboys Stadium uses SurgeX:
> 
> 
> QUOTE: "SurgeX was specified for surge elimination and power conditioning for the main racks, FOH racks, and every remote rack location protecting the sensitive DSP, hubs and other peripheral equipment. A total of 44 SurgeX SX1120-RT were used throughout the venue. Everything else is a TVSS surge suppressor, SurgeX is the only complete surge eliminator, 0 voltage let through on worst case surge of 6000Volts, 3000amps. Projects like this have to have the very best."
> 
> http://www.listentech.com/blog/Dalla...lights-Listen/
> 
> http://www.surgex.com/news.html



I am sorry but my BS meter is going full tilt right now. Lets posit a question for you. If there are say fourty units at that location, how many MOV units are at the main service entrance locations and subpanels which CAN NOT be 'suppressed' with a SurgeX device. I will bet it is hundreds of locations!


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HFXguy* /forum/post/19615247
> 
> 
> It is just funny how you will not believe one manufacturer but believe another.



Because not all companies are the same with the same management and marketing...


For example take AT&T versus Verizon. AT&T was caught fudging the numbers and being disingenuous with their marketing campaign about 3G coverage and Verizon nailed them on it. Verizon is rated #1 by consumer reports in coverage and customer service, AT&T is ranked 3rd behind Verizon and Sprint.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19615070
> 
> 
> Also, any ceo of a major international respected company that is used by NASA isn't going to lie and make up claims he can't back up, don't be naive.
> 
> 
> SurgeX Wins Prestigious Global Technology Achievement Award. The award was presented at Integrated Systems Europe 2010. ISE is an InfoComm International organization:
> 
> 
> Michael McCook pictured: http://www.internationalaudiogroup.com/surgex.php
> 
> 
> Who is your source? I posted mine. If this just turns into a immature back and forth fight I won't respond, just post a link/source or I'll just move on.



So what if his company sends material to a 'high profile' company. I work at both of the local National Laboratories doing testing and you won't take my word as gospel


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19615391
> 
> 
> I am sorry but my BS meter is going full tilt right now. Lets posit a question for you. If there are say fourty units at that location, how many MOV units are at the main service entrance locations and subpanels which CAN NOT be 'suppressed' with a SurgeX device. I will bet it is hundreds of locations!



I'm calling B.S. on your lack of sources to back up anything and how you refuse to educate yourself and try to put it all on my to hold your hand while you can contact hundreds of sources to back this up. Sorry buddy, I posted links/sources to back up my claims and you're still in denial because you just can't stand losing a argument, ignorant people who refuse to get educated can't be reasoned with no matter how much evidence is presented. If you don't believe me, oh well.










I'm not SurgeX or the management and operations crew of the Dallas Cowboys stadium, you can contact them to ask them (which you are too scared to do for obvious reasons) and ask them. I do NOT work for them, I just passed along the sources I found.


Cowboys Stadium Location 900 E Randol Mill Rd,

Arlington, Texas 76011


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19614862
> 
> 
> Also, I would like to see a test done by anyone who claims mov based devices that are plugged in downstream that the mov inside can withstand a 6000 volt surge. SurgeX has already proven at many shows (CEDIA) that their products can withstand litterally thousands upon thousands of 6000 volt surges, and they've blown up quite a few of the Chinese made Panamax's, APC'S, Tripplite's etc that can't even withstand surges under 6000 volts that are mov based. SurgeX are made in the U.S. with a 11 year warranty, while the Panamax's, APC's, Triplite's are made in China in undisclosed factories. Can any of you post the location and name's of the factories in China and their quality control that make these mov suppressors?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Standard UL testing requires these tests. Look at the standard tests for UL1449 (A, B, C categories) and you will learn. Additionally, the surgeX devices do not have to pass this test for UL1449 because they are listed as filters and not suppressors. Whats up with that???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> MOV based surge suppressors are NOT to be used downstream at the outlet, they are suppose to be used at the service entrance, that's the point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again....where are you getting your information from? This is contrary to every guideline in the industry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Again, people get confused, I NEVER said mov based devices should never be used, they need to be avoided downstream.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I want to know what nationally recognized study or source provided this information! It is BS through and through.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19615407
> 
> 
> So what if his company sends material to a 'high profile' company. I work at both of the local National Laboratories doing testing and you won't take my word as gospel



You're jealous! lol










I am not a expert or educated in this field and I never claimed to be, I am not affiliated with anyone, I'm just a amateur. Who is your name and what is the name of your company? We went through this before and you never backed up anything you said, again another poser online. lol Notice how you won't post anything you accomplished in life but whine about a world renowned company and a ceo who puts himself out there and his product out there for the world to see and examine while you sit behind a computer and judge like a coward.


(His only response to is respond back with questions and conspiracies.)


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19615448
> 
> 
> I want to know what nationally recognized study or source provided this information! It is BS through and through.



NO, you're just jealous is all. And why can't you contact SurgeX yourself? I'm not affiliated with them. (You won't because you're scared)


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19615427
> 
> 
> I'm calling B.S. on your lack of sources to back up anything and how you refuse to educate yourself and try to put it all on my to hold your hand while you can contact hundreds of sources to back this up. Sorry buddy, I posted links/sources to back up my claims and you're still in denial because you just can't stand losing a argument, ignorant people who refuse to get educated can't be reasoned with no matter how much evidence is presented. If you don't believe me, oh well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please answer the question. Where are you getting your information from. I use the Emerald book, NEC, Industry guidelines provided by IEEE etc. Your information, I believe, Is nothing more than marketing BS from the salesman at SurgeX.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I'm not SurgeX or the management and operations crew of the Dallas Cowboys stadium, you can contact them to ask them (which you are too scared to do for obvious reasons) and ask them. I do NOT work for them, I just passed along the sources I found.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why would I contact them. You keep posting incorrect information which is easily refuted. Besided, I work in the field of commissioning and testing power systems including suppression systems. You apparently do not.
Click to expand...


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19615455
> 
> 
> You're jealous! lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not a expert or educated in this field and I never claimed to be, I am not affiliated with anyone, I'm just a amateur. Who is your name and what is the name of your company? We went through this before and you never backed up anything you said, again another poser online. lol Notice how you won't post anything you accomplished in life but whine about a world renowned company and a ceo who puts himself out there and his product out there for the world to see and examine while you sit behind a computer and judge like a coward.
> 
> 
> (His only response to is respond back with questions and conspiracies.)



Your responses are completely ridiculous. And for the record, I have posted what I do online in these forums. If you are not educated in this field, why would you post such strong feelings about technology which you do not understand.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19615488
> 
> 
> Please answer the question. Where are you getting your information from. I use the Emerald book, NEC, Industry guidelines provided by IEEE etc. Your information, I believe, Is nothing more than marketing BS from the salesman at SurgeX



You never once responded to the fact that all those high profile prestigeous venues use SurgeX, why is that? Why would multi-million and billion dollar projects use a product that isn't credible? I doubt you will answer this thoroughly and I won't answer anymore questions till you answer this obvious common sense question.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19615488
> 
> 
> Why would I contact them. You keep posting incorrect information which is easily refuted. Besided, I work in the field of commissioning and testing power systems including suppression systems. You apparently do not.



You should contact them because they can give you all the information you need but you won't so you want to trap a amateur online because obvious you're not a professional and afraid of getting spanked by a real pro so you sit online and try to play games with people like me.


What is the name of your company you work for and your education and background?


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19615521
> 
> 
> Your responses are completely ridiculous. And for the record, I have posted what I do online in these forums. If you are not educated in this field, why would you post such strong feelings about technology which you do not understand.



Actually you haven't once posted any source/link to back up any of your claims because you can't, you're quite immature and your debating skills are that of a child who can't stand getting schooled by someone who is real and doesn't pretend to be a engineer as I am just a regular guy. You seem to be very insecure with your knowledge too and actually contacting people that can give you all the answers you need.


But, You never once responded to the fact that all those high profile prestigeous venues use SurgeX, why is that? Why would multi-million and billion dollar projects use a product that isn't credible? I doubt you will answer this thoroughly and I won't answer anymore questions till you answer this obvious common sense question.


(You will now try to change the subject and not answer this) everyone watch


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> You never once responded to the fact that all those high profile prestigeous venues use SurgeX, why is that? Why would multi-million and billion dollar projects use a product that isn't credible? I doubt you will answer this thoroughly and I won't answer anymore questions till you answer this obvious common sense question.



Your argument is flawed....because a certain venue uses a product, they endorse it as the best product. Tell me what is wrong with that statement? Why do these same multimillion dollar venues use MOV protection and are not advertised with the venues' name?




> Quote:
> You should contact them because they can give you all the information you need but you won't so you want to trap a amateur online because obvious you're not a professional and afraid of getting spanked by a real pro so you sit online and try to play games with people like me.
> 
> 
> What is the name of your company you work for and your education and background?



[/quote]

I own my own company, I am an Engineer with 21 years in the field.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19615552
> 
> 
> Actually you haven't once posted any source/link to back up any of your claims because you can't, you're quite immature and your debating skills are that of a child who can't stand getting schooled by someone who is real and doesn't pretend to be a engineer as I am just a regular guy. You seem to be very insecure with your knowledge too and actually contacting people that can give you all the answers you need.
> 
> 
> But, You never once responded to the fact that all those high profile prestigeous venues use SurgeX, why is that? Why would multi-million and billion dollar projects use a product that isn't credible? I doubt you will answer this thoroughly and I won't answer anymore questions till you answer this obvious common sense question.
> 
> 
> (You will now try to change the subject and not answer this) everyone watch



Your limited knowledge about the subject, and your supposed brainwashing has affected your ability to critically think about this subject in a manner which is helpful.


BTW, you have never answered any questions about where you get your flawed information!


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19615197
> 
> 
> You seem to not be here for serious discussion...



I am serious. I would like to hear from the source. As of yet, I have no firm opinion on SurgeX surge protection because I have yet to see a reasonable discussion about the pros and cons, and how it works. All I have seen here about SurgeX are a testimonials from technology challenged proponents who make outrageous claims about other surge protection technology. And the SurgeX site is so light on details as to be useless.


But if you want to act like a baby, take your ball, and go home, good riddance.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19615577
> 
> 
> Your argument is flawed....because a certain venue uses a product, they endorse it as the best product. Tell me what is wrong with that statement? Why do these same multimillion dollar venues use MOV protection and are not advertised with the venues' name?



Actually it was you who first injected yourself into this and onto me, you have not once backed up any of your claims, you still haven't posted one source/link to anything, as I have posted multiple.


Now again, don't answer my question with a question of your own and answer my question that I asked first:


Why do high profile prestigious venues use SurgeX (Dallas Cowboys Stadium, Yankee Stadium, every Philadelphia pro-sports venue, Carnegie Hall, Kimmel Center, Paramount Studios production, NASA uplink for the Hubble Telescope etc) why is that? Why would multi-million and billion dollar projects use a product that isn't credible?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19615577
> 
> 
> I own my own company, I am an Engineer with 21 years in the field.



A job is a job especially in this economy, I respect that but there are plenty of weekend warriors out there that are run of the mill. I had a electrician who was certified who removed a 15 amp AFCI circuit breaker and replaced it with a 20 amp on a 14 gauge wire. Plenty of ignorant people out there who found ways to get jobs in whatever field they enter.


And you happen to use MOV based products that you don't manufacture so you are making money off pushing mov based scams. But I notice you cleverly stay away from mentioning names like: "Panamax, APC, Triplite."


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19616129
> 
> 
> I am serious. I would like to hear from the source. As of yet, I have no firm opinion on SurgeX surge protection because I have yet to see a reasonable discussion about the pros and cons, and how it works. All I have seen here about SurgeX are a testimonials from technology challenged proponents who make outrageous claims about other surge protection technology. And the SurgeX site is so light on details as to be useless.
> 
> 
> But if you want to act like a baby, take your ball, and go home, good riddance.



Then why don't you contact the source SurgeX and ask them to send you through email or whatever way the information you would like to see so you can make a proper assessment and more informed opinion of the company and it's products?


----------



## Colm

I would like to see a discussion in print between those in the know about SurgeX, and other serial products, and a variety of folks who know something about surge protection, or at least have opinions, not listen to a sales pitch. I want to hear both sides at the same time. We have had that discussion many times about MOV based devices. I would like to see the same for serial devices.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19616526
> 
> 
> I would like to see a discussion in print between those in the know about SurgeX, and other serial products, and a variety of folks who know something about surge protection, or at least have opinions, not listen to a sales pitch. I want to hear both sides at the same time. We have had that discussion many times about MOV based devices. I would like to see the same for serial devices.



Why? when you can just cut through all the "sales pitch" and opinions and go right to the horse's mouth and contact SurgeX. Is there a reason why you guys don't contact the manufacturer? You seem scared and prefer having arguments on here to determine what is fact and what isn't.


----------



## oppopioneer

SurgeX listes all it's test results and if you ever just went over to their website you would have seen this, but instead you sit here like kids at a table stomping your forks on the table demanding to be fed, you guys seem very dependent on others on here to educate you, you guys should learn some independence.


But here's a SurgeX product at their website:


SurgeX SEQ:


SPECIFICATIONS

Load Rating: 20 amps @ 120 volts.


Power Requirement (no load): 20 watts.


Surge Let-Through Voltage (6000-volt surge): 0 volts


UL 1449 Adjunct Classification Test Results:

1000 surges, 6000 volts, 3000 amps, B3 pulse;

Measured suppressed voltage: 170 volts; no failures


Federal Guidelines: Grade A, Class 1, Mode 1 (CID A-A-55818)


EMI/RFI Filter, Normal Mode (50-ohm load):

40 dB @ 100 kHz; 50 dB @ 300 kHz;

50 dB @ 3 MHz; 50dB @ 30 MHz


EMI/RFI Filter, Common Mode (50-ohm load):

18 dB @ 300 kHz; 30 dB @ 1 MHz;

50 dB @ 5 MHz; 50 dB @ 20 MHz


Maximum Applied Surge Voltage: 6000 volts*


Maximum Applied Surge Current:

Unlimited, due to current limiting*


Maximum Applied Surge Energy:

Unlimited, due to current limiting*


Endurance (C62.41-1991 Category B3 pulses):

1 kV>500,000; 3 kV>10,000; 6 kV>1000


Control Inputs: Momentary Switch, Latching Switch,

Contact Closure or 5-30 Vdc


Input Control Current: 3 mA


DC Voltage Output: 12 Vdc, 40 mA maximum load


Auxiliary Relay Output: 1 amp, 30 Vdc


Delay Times: 0-40 seconds


Dimensions: 3.5" H x 19.0" W x 10.5" D (8.9 x 48.3 x 26.7 cm)


Weight: 16 lbs (7.3 kg)


Temperature Range: 5º to 35º C


Humidity Range: 5% to 95% R.H., non-condensing.


Agency Listings: ETL and cETL (UL 1449, 2nd edition;

CSA C22.2 No.8-M1986, R2000)


*1.2 x 50 µs pulse, industry standard combination wave surge, as per IEEE C62.41


Specifications subject to change without notice. SurgeX is a division of Electronic Systems Protection, Inc.


This product, including its components and/or processes carried out thereby, are covered by one or more of the following: U.S. Pat. No. 4,870,534. 4,870,528. 6,728,089. 6,744,613. 7,068,487. Can. Pat. No. 1,333,191. 1,332,439.


You can download their PDF for this product here: http://surgex.com/products/seq.html


----------



## oppopioneer

IMS Pro A/V is a professional pro audio company that sells to high end recording studios and advises them on setups. They sell different power conditioner companies, they recommend and say SurgeX is the best and have never heard of any of their products failing. If you don't believe me contact them, I already did, I don't work for them, so contact them and ask, they won't bite.

http://imsproav.com/


----------



## Colm

Do you have any idea of the relevance or irrelevance of any of the data in the long list you posted?


----------



## pakishazi

Thanks to all who responded!


I will roll with the Belkin one I have for now and then hope it works out well enough. I live in an apartment right now so don't have a truckload of wall units (not sure if that affects anything).


Maybe if I see a good deal on a a more expensive surge protector then I will get one later.


Looks like the forum is going off topic again but I won't be interjecting myself into this argument.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19616817
> 
> 
> Do you have any idea of the relevance or irrelevance of any of the data in the long list you posted?



Do you?


----------



## Power Factor

AV Doogie, westom, Colm, oppioneer, Fulie, et al,


I would like to invite you to contact me directly to discuss the physics and realities of lightning and surge protection.


I have no interest in flame wars over this simple understanding.


267-251-6119


Sincerely,

Michael McCook

SurgeX International

Office: (+1)610-847-4956

Direct: (+1)267-251-6119

Fax: (+1)610-847-4955
[email protected] 

Skype: michael.mccook


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19616908
> 
> 
> Do you?



Yes.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pakishazi* /forum/post/19612274
> 
> 
> I actually have one of these laying around the house: Belkin BE112230-08 12 Outlet Home/Office Surge Protector with Telephone and Coaxial Protection ... It doesn't say it is meant specifically for TVs but it is up to 3940 joules.



So how does that trivial 1300 joules (and never more than 2650 joules) absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? How does it absorb even lesser and destructive surges? It doesn't.


Post Belkin specifications that claim protection from each type of surge. And good luck. Belkin sells on urban myths. It does not claim protection from typically destructive surges. A majority will recommend it only because it is called surge protection. Sound so much like surge protection - so it must be?


Surgex suffers the same problem. It claims to absorb near zero energy. Others promote that as effective protection. Surgex is a series mode filter. Nothing more. That means it will also stop what three miles of sky could not? If you like being scammed. Surgex is found in studios for noise reduction - not for surge protection.


How does an internal 2 centimeter part inside the Belkin stop what three miles of sky could not? Obviously does not. Explains a numeric spec that nobody can find. Once energy is inside a house, then nothing stops a destructive hunt for earth via appliances. Nothing. Therefore facilities must never suffer failures waste no money on a Belkin. Instead direct that money into what really does protection - an upgraded single point earth ground.


No protector does protection. Either a surge is connected to single point ground. Or a protector is promoted as a profit center. How many recommend protectors that claim no effective protection? Where is that numeric spec. How do a tiny thousands joules absorb surges that easily 100 times larger? Only hearsay proves it.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Power Factor* /forum/post/19617570
> 
> 
> I would like to invite you to contact me directly to discuss the physics and realities of lightning and surge protection.



There really is nothing to discuss. Where is the numeric specification that lists protection from each type of surge. Ineffective protectors are recommended by never answering that question.


How does a protector stop what three miles of sky could not? Either a protector does that. Or it is ineffective.


Where does energy dissipate? Also never answered. Instead, the reply will reciting other myths to avoid simple questions such as, "Why are ineffective protectors recommended by ignoring all those professional citations and numbers?"


Attacks are necessary because they can never answer these questions. Where is that manufacturer spec number that claims surge protection? Never once provided. That unanswered question alone should be sufficient for you.


----------



## Gizmologist

Westom, et al, are any of you going to take up the SurgeX engineer on his offer?


Westom you must have this speech memorized because the syntax is the same every time as are the grammatical errors.


Companies like SurgeX and Furman MUST be doing something right as they are both TOTL in the professional AV and broadcast industry.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/19618475
> 
> 
> Companies like SurgeX and Furman MUST be doing something right as they are both TOTL in the professional AV and broadcast industry.



If you think something so useful to be learned, then post each numeric specification that says so. Not difficult. Where are the only facts that are relevant? Written specs with numbers. Not hearsay speech. Why do you never provide what is only relevant?


Painful is to read flowery paragraphs that recite myths and never once say why. Where are numeric specification for the Surgex? Oh. You cannot provide them because you do not understand the question? It not bad English. Its bad comprehension of simple questions. Where are those specs?


Professional studios use Surgex, Brickwall and Zerosurge for what they do best. Series mode filters perform noise reduction. No informed engineer installs them for surge protection especially when a wire inside each bypasses that filter. Compromises any assumed' protection.


Embarrassing is anyone who would recommend a Furman product for surge protection. Obviously. Just view the spec numbers and its price. The word scam applies to too many Furman products.


Surge protection means that energy is never inside the building. No way around reality. Learn, for example, what van der Laan and van Deursen did to fix a nuclear hardened maritime communication center that suffered repeated surge damage. They did not waste money on Surgex. Instead they modified a defect that caused lightning damage - earth ground.


Or a case study for a Nebraska radio station that suffered repeated surge damage. Damage made easier because untrained broadcast engineers (apparently only technicians) disconnected grounds - made things worse. Again, no money wasted on Surgex or other plug-in protectors. Every solution simply fixed the only thing that does surge protection - earthing:
http://www.copper.org/applications/e.../nebraska.html 


How does a Surgex stop what three miles of sky could not? How does its what - 2000 joules - make hundreds of thousands of joules magically disappear? I keep asking those engineering questions. You avoid them by posting meandering and flowery English. And pretend you do not understand simple English.


Why do professionals not use Surgex for surge protection? Why do professionals always want surge energy outside a building? Because a superior solution that means direct lightning strikes without damage also costs tens and 100 times less money. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


Only repeating reality because it is reality. And because you always avoid those same damning questions. Series mode filters do not magically stop surges.


----------



## Gizmologist

You ignore the question. Are you going to contact the SurgeX engineer?


That is a yes or no answer. One syllable, not a diatribe.


----------



## westom

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* 
You ignore the question. Are you going to contact the SurgeX engineer?
We have already had that conversation years ago. We both agreed the Surgex does not address serious surges. And then went on to discuss the serious merits of what a series mode filter does best - noise reduction.


You can learn the same. Just read its numeric specifications. Only someone who conveniently cannot read English would not do that. So maybe you would would like to point to this surge proection spec that even their engineer did not know about?


----------



## G-Rex

Yup, the SurgeX units are very good at normal mode and common mode noise reduction. Some of this is done with the inductor coil/series mode stage but there is also a board in there that greatly contributes and is the primary reason for such effective noise reduction. The series mode unit alone ie. BrickWall uses the series mode stage to passively reduce noise but at greatly reduced levels than the SurgeX.


That's not all they do. Zero contamination to ground or neutral, zero let through, over under voltage shutdown, and in my case the utilization of ICE inrush protection where one switch in my theater will turn on 4 SurgeX devices and 4 large Pro M&K sub woofers via low voltage trigger. The SurgeX units will absorb the inrush taking the strain off my subs power supplies.


I own 2 SX-1120-RTs and (soon to be delivered) the new small footprint CM-1120-RTs. All this after my whole house surge protection equals great protection.



Those who use MOV based devices at the component rack should consider getting the ones made in a metal cases. Many now come equipped with thermal fuses and auto shut down for additional safety.


See link below for explanation of the SurgeX boards and components

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79p3ysUnx_Y


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/19618629
> 
> 
> You ignore the question. Are you going to contact the SurgeX engineer?
> 
> 
> That is a yes or no answer. One syllable, not a diatribe.



Giz,


I called and left him a voicemail at 9:15AM central time this morning (12/9/10)


.....awaiting a response.


----------



## Neurorad

SurgeX might make good products, but just because their products are used at sports stadiums, means nothing. Same with an industry 'award'.


----------



## G-Rex

How come I get the feeling that if the SurgeX units were $39.95 all those pessimists here would be raving about them.


----------



## Outlaw30




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Rex* /forum/post/19620354
> 
> 
> How come I get the feeling that if the SurgeX units were $39.95 all those pessimists here would be raving about them.



Not a feeling...a fact! The coat hanger gang is out in full force today.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19620317
> 
> 
> SurgeX might make good products, but just because their products are used at sports stadiums, means nothing. Same with an industry 'award'.



I think that's a ignorant statement and opinion. Why would a billion dollar stadium like the new Dallas Cowboys Stadium that also uses the world's largest LCD display and other state of the art electronics just use whatever is out there to protect the stadium?


If you contact any company that sells products to professional recording studios and broadcast tv and cable companies they will tell you SurgeX is the best and much better than the Monster's, APC'S, Triplite's, Panamax's that they don't use.


For example, all the companies below sell and help setup professional recording studios and broadcast station studios and they sell many different power conditioners from many different companies, they all say SurgeX is the best.

http://www.daleproaudio.com/ 

http://www.markertek.com/ 

http://imsproav.com/


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19618915
> 
> 
> We have already had that conversation years ago. We both agreed the Surgex does not address serious surges. And then went on to discuss the serious merits of what a series mode filter does best - noise reduction.
> 
> 
> You can learn the same. Just read its numeric specifications. Only someone who conveniently cannot read English would not do that. So maybe you would would like to point to this surge proection spec that even their engineer did not know about?



Nothing on this earth will protect your house against a direct lightning strike of several hundred thousand volts!


The whole point is: A mov whole house surge protector are prefered at the service entrance, and SurgeX Series Mode is superior downstream at the outlet. A mov based device plugged in downstream is inferior because it diverts energy from the neutral to the ground which leads to ground contamination. A SurgeX completely eliminates surges around 6000 volts, a mov will get destroyed or compromised if it gets hit with anything near a 6000 volt, in fact a 3000 volt would compromise the system.


I'm going to be putting in a whole house surge protector in the next few weeks and I'm trying to figure out which manufacturer and model to select...


I've narrowed it down to these two, are any of you knowledgable and familiar with them?

http://www.smarthome.com/4870/Interm...G1240RC/p.aspx 


or...

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Power Factor* /forum/post/19617570
> 
> 
> AV Doogie, westom, Colm, oppioneer, Fulie, et al,
> 
> 
> I would like to invite you to contact me directly to discuss the physics and realities of lightning and surge protection.
> 
> 
> I have no interest in flame wars over this simple understanding.
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Michael McCook
> 
> SurgeX International
> 
> Office: (+1)610-847-4956
> 
> Direct: (+1)267-251-6119
> 
> Fax: (+1)610-847-4955
> [email protected]
> 
> Skype: michael.mccook




Mr. Michael McCook returned my call today....we discussed MOV and SMP protection designs as well as system protection. I would like to thank Mike for his candor in discussing the capabilities of his product. Some information which needs updating....and if I need to be corrected, M. McCook can clarify. I will also contact a Mr. Andy Benton about some of the design details at a later time since I am curious about the internal operation of these units....as they differ from typical networks employed for MOV type suppression.


1) Based upon the supplied specifications, the SurgeX product should provide a benefit as a protective device downstream from a main service entrance suppression unit. Further discussions with the engineer may reveal if full testing specifications to UL1449 3rd edition are complete. As listed on the manufacturer website and ETL website, only one of the three testing classifications are listed as being met. I have never disputed using cascaded systems for protection...as it is a recognized standard for system protection.

2) Please stop making blanket statements about the actual operation of MOV based devices or SurgeX devices, this should be left to the folks who either design them or understand the installation/operation of the units with some sort of background in the technology.

3) Please contact Mike McCook for any information regarding our discussion and/or additional questions about his product.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19620525
> 
> 
> Nothing on this earth will protect your house against a direct lightning strike of several hundred thousand volts!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> \\
> 
> Not even a SurgeX device!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> The whole point is: A mov whole house surge protector are prefered at the service entrance, and SurgeX Series Mode is *superior* downstream at the outlet. A mov based device plugged in downstream is inferior because it diverts energy from the neutral to the ground which leads to ground contamination. A SurgeX completely eliminates surges around 6000 volts, a mov will get destroyed or compromised if it gets hit with anything near a 6000 volt, in fact a 3000 volt would compromise the system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There you are making blanket statements again... a quality MOV suppressor will not be destroyed or compromised if hit with one surge as you have indicated. In order to pass the UL1449 testing, a device has to withstand the impulse rating you have listed above and do it repeatedly without catastrophic failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I'm going to be putting in a whole house surge protector in the next few weeks and I'm trying to figure out which manufacturer and model to select...
> 
> 
> I've narrowed it down to these two, are any of you knowledgable and familiar with them?
> 
> http://www.smarthome.com/4870/Interm...G1240RC/p.aspx
> 
> 
> or...
> 
> http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Do these devices have any listings for tests performed? I am not able to find any. So the question remains. Why would you use these devices?


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Rex* /forum/post/19620354
> 
> 
> How come I get the feeling that if the SurgeX units were $39.95 all those pessimists here would be raving about them.




Has nothing to do with the cost of the product. You simply do not understand how the units operate and in which circumstances they should be applied.


----------



## Neurorad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19620525
> 
> 
> I've narrowed it down to these two, are any of you knowledgable and familiar with them?
> 
> http://www.smarthome.com/4870/Interm...G1240RC/p.aspx
> 
> 
> or...
> 
> http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1



I'm leaning toward the Eaton Cutler-Hammer brand myself.


Eaton offers some other lines that I may use instead of that CHSP line (CVX Series, SPD Series).


There may be a new model of that residential series, hard to tell. New designations CHSPT1 and CHSPT2 in the catalog, referring to installation on the service or load sides of the service entrance.


Eaton resi (Tab 04) and commercial/industrial SPD (Tab 10) catalog sections can be downloaded here

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...alog/index.htm 


CVL would be another Eaton to consider.


----------



## oppopioneer

AV Doogie, which "whole house" surge protector and power conditioner do you recommend as a proven credible company and product?


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19621343
> 
> 
> AV Doogie, which "whole house" surge protector and power conditioner do you recommend as a proven credible company and product?



There are a number of manufacturers out there with devices which have been through the NRTL testing and have the test information provided. I would look for those first.


One such manufacturer is IT


The ITRSP residential unit http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...tial/index.htm 


This looks like the Cutler Hammer version, but I can not find any test specs for the Cutler Hammer version. Eaton now owns IT.


or the unit which I have used (XT40)
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...ries/index.htm 


or maybe this http://www.surgepack.com/product-index.htm 


or this http://www.tnbpowersolutions.com/transend


----------



## Neurorad

The ITRSP and CHSP appear to be the same.


I can't find any IT literature or catalogs more recent than 2008, although the Eaton IT TVSS page says their products are UL 1449 3rd ed compliant.

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...TVSS/index.htm


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19621800
> 
> 
> The ITRSP and CHSP appear to be the same.
> 
> 
> I can't find any IT literature or catalogs more recent than 2008, although the Eaton IT TVSS page says their products are UL 1449 3rd ed compliant.
> 
> http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...TVSS/index.htm




They do look the same...although like I said, I can not find specifications for NRTL testing for the Cutler Hammer units


----------



## G-Rex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19621101
> 
> 
> Has nothing to do with the cost of the product. You simply do not understand how the units operate and in which circumstances they should be applied.



I know much more than you think. I know exactly how they work, where they should be applied and how they should be used downstream from a whole house protector, which I have already installed. I have spoken MANY times in great detail with Robert, one of the SurgeX engineers, as well as the lead desinger and engineer at Furman for the It-Reference series. If anything YOU have not done your homework...and I'm glad to see you finally doing it.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Rex* /forum/post/19622223
> 
> 
> I know much more than you think. I know exactly how they work, where they should be applied and how they should be used downstream from a whole house protector, which I have already installed. I have spoken MANY times in great detail with Robert, one of the SurgeX engineers, as well as the lead desinger and engineer at Furman for the It-Reference series. If anything YOU have not done your homework...and I'm glad to see you finally doing it.



If this were the case you would not be making such foolish statements










...and being told how they work and where you might install such devices makes you a professional?? Just as if you were to rent a violin today and become a professional violinist tomorrow










....and I have the ear of a few design engineers on my side of the lake, besides being an engineer myself. Like I have said, I have no horse in this race as for the manufacturers or products on either side... but I will have something to say if folks persist in trying to pass misinformation about things for which they do not understand.


----------



## G-Rex

Foolish, anything but foolish. I have done plenty of research on them, and spoken at length with the designers of the units I own, which YOU are doing now.







I know plenty how they work and respect good design instead of being envious of the companies and engineers that are actually profitting with sound engineering. I have tried to be civil with you but you you just can't help yourself.


Just because your an engineer does Not mean you know more than Furman or SurgeX. So critical, but what have you invented? Have you achieved A-1-1 certification like Furman and SurgeX?







Are you a CEO/engineer of a similar company that does surge protection right? Let's see your white papers. If more was going on you would not be hanging on these boards 24/7.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19622314
> 
> 
> If this were the case you would not be making such foolish statements
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and being told how they work and where you might install such devices makes you a professional?? Just as if you were to rent a violin today and become a professional violinist tomorrow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....and I have the ear of a few design engineers on my side of the lake, besides being an engineer myself. Like I have said, I have no horse in this race as for the manufacturers or products on either side... but I will have something to say if folks persist in trying to pass misinformation about things for which they do not understand.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Rex* /forum/post/19622583
> 
> 
> Foolish, anything but foolish. I have done plenty of research on them, and spoken at length with the designers of the units I own, which YOU are doing now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know plenty how they work and respect good design instead of being envious of the companies and engineers that are actually profitting with sound engineering. I have tried to be civil with you but you you just can't help yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats great, then you should enlighten us with your knowledge instead of flaming. I had a nice discussion with M. McCook at SurgeX, we have a similar understanding and backgrounds when it comes to protection, call him and ask him. His device should work in certain situations and may be an excellent product... I still have some research and information to gather about this product which has not either been fully tested using standard industry tests or they have simply not added them to the websites. Mr. McCook could not tell me if his product did indeed pass the two remaining standard tests and provided me the number for the engineer who might.
> 
> 
> I have been civil with you. I have simply pointed out your propensity to use tidbits of information to make blanket statements which are patently false.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Just because your an engineer does Not mean you know more than Furman, or SurgeX.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Never said I did. I am pointing out the fact that you believe that you think you know more than someone with a background in this field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> So critical, but what have you invented? Have you achieved A-1-1 certification like Furman and SurgeX?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you a CEO/engineer of a similar company that does surge protection right? Let's see your white papers. If more was going on you would not be hanging on these boards 24/7.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I invented my own third party testing company which keeps me out of trouble and on the path to early retirement. My work does not require any sort of patents. I test power systems and suppression systems for a living....that is my background.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> You engineers (some not all...you know who you are) on this board are some of the most narrow minded, stubborn, and bitter individuals I have ever dealt with. Filled with arrogance and venom to attack all those around them as they strive for their own importance. I guess this is what happens when your locked up in a closet surrounded by miles of Belden cable for 30 years! Yup, tired of the "coat hanger gang's" comments. They are never ending.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Now why would you say that if you wish to come to these boards and have a discussion. If you know something about a product in a professional sense than add your two cents....but if you come here with poor information, and try to spread it, then you are probably going to be corrected


----------



## G-Rex

AV, I come to these boards because I enjoy the discussions, not to rant. I open my mouth and you quickly call me foolish...it's inappropriate and unidirectional. If you say you want more info from SurgeX then say so... at least your being proactive. They will not provide you or I full schematics of these units as that is proprietary and protected info. So we will always be provided with only a piece of the puzzle. Testing data and A-1-1 certification data is valid and may be provided to the public. Is this not adequate that it is a sound product?


AVS was born for the AV enthusiast not as an engineer's playground to demean nonengineers. You would be surprised what a nonengineer can learn with 25 years in this hobby, you are very judgemental without knowing anything about me. Sound familiar







.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19621678
> 
> 
> There are a number of manufacturers out there with devices which have been through the NRTL testing and have the test information provided. I would look for those first.



Has this unit officially been subjected and tested through the NRTL and provided the test results?

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...ries/index.htm 


Is that a "whole house" surge protector to be installed at the service entrance or outdoor by the meter?


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19623134
> 
> 
> Has this unit officially been subjected and tested through the NRTL and provided the test results?
> 
> http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...ries/index.htm
> 
> 
> Is that a "whole house" surge protector to be installed at the service entrance or outdoor by the meter?



Look at the Technical data on the page you supplied. It shows that the testing was performed...and with the recommended 6" lead length. You would have this type of unit installed at the service entrance panel through two breakers and a short lead to the ground bar.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19621087
> 
> 
> Do these devices have any listings for tests performed? I am not able to find any. So the question remains. Why would you use these devices?



Your telco suffers typically 100 surges with every thunderstorm. How often is your town without phone service for 4 days while they replace their computers? Never? Telcos waste no money on Surgex that magically make energy disappear. Even in the 1950s, research in the Bell System Technical Journal described surge protection. Same concepts even found in 1880 surge protection solutions. Same concepts demonstrated by Franklin in 1752. Same concepts taught in second grade science.


Research is well proven by example in every town. The usually nasty naysayers could be fired for implementing their 'miracle' plug-in solutions in such facilities. Reliable facilities do not waste money on plug-in protectors and always - as in there is no exception - always use best earthing.


IEEE papers, NIST, IEC, US Air Force, or even Sun Microsystems's Planning guide for Sun Server room:

> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans for the data center

> should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths for surge entry into the data center. Surge

> arrestors can be designed into the system to help mitigate the potential for lightning damage

> within the data center. These should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to

> ground for the surge energy.


For each one discussion based in science is maybe 30,000 advertisements. Same technique also proved another myth. Saddam had WMDs because a majority only believe what advertising orders them to believe. Lemmings. Same lemming who do not post even one manufacturer spec number.


In every case, protection has always been about earth ground. Well documented where science and experience is promoted. Denied only by those educated by retail propaganda. Surges seek earth ground. No way around that reality. Whole house' protectors and Franklin's lightning rods are successful protection. Both are useless without the only thing that does protection - earth ground. You don't need technical papers to learn that. It was even taught in 2nd grade science.


Telcos in every town - as was done even 100 years ago - do not waste money on plug-in protectors. They do not want to enrich scammers. They need protection. So they spend tens or 100 times less money to earth protectors short to single point ground. And spend massively to upgrade the earthing. A professional's application note demonstrates how two structures are always protected - which means earthing even underground cables:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf 


To increase protection, telcos locate protectors up to 50 meters distant from electronics. Reasons why are obvious from basic electrical concepts. And unknown to those only educated by advertising. Same electrical reasons are why every foot shorter between protector and single point earth ground also increases protection.


Either hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly earthed outside a building. Or that energy is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Somehow a magic box (rated at hundreds of joules) will magically make that hundred of thousands of joules magically disappear? A majority say so with denials, nasty insults, and where are those numeric specifications that naysayer never provide?


Why do munitions dumps only use earthing and whole house' protectors. Munitions dumps need protection from all surges including direct lightning. Money is not wasted on plug-in scams. Effective protection systems cost many times less money. And in every case, without exception, involve the always required short connection from every wire inside every incoming cable to single point ground. A best solution was pioneered in munitions dumps - Ufer grounds.


This is not for naysayers brainwashed by advertising. They will post nasty replies devoid of where is that manufacturer spec? Same naïve naysayers (who foolishly disparage one of the best protector components - MOVs) also could be told Saddam had WMDs. Magically knew it must be true. Same magic in a Surgex that makes hundreds of thousands of joules disappear.


Once a whole house' protector is properly earthed, then direct lightning strikes (ie 20,000 amps) create only hundreds of volts. Easily made irrelevant by protection inside every appliance. Even the most sensitive - ie dimmer switches. Routine is to have direct lightning strikes without damage - ie every telco CO in every town. Facilities that can never have damage earth whole house' protectors; do not waste money on plug-in scams. Well proven in over 100 years of science. Science is not found in advertising brochures.


Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Scammers pretend that protector makes energy magically disappear. No earth ground means no protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - as was understood even 100 years ago.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19623219
> 
> 
> It shows that the testing was performed...and with the recommended 6" lead length.



How to change test results? Increase or decrease lead length. Wire length seriously changes how a protector peforms.


Buy an MOV for $2 in Radio Shack. That same protector has different performance when tested two inches down its lead, or where leads enter the MOV. Even 2 changes test results.


Protectors are only simple science. The key parameter is its current rating. Minimal 'whole house' protectors start at 50,000 amps. How effective is that protector? How many feet from the circuit breaker, through that protector, bus bar and to single point earth ground? Every additional foot longer diminishes protection. Sharp wire bends also diminish protection. For the same reason why that 6" number was important.


Why are test results so hard to find? Because a protector does not do protection. Earth ground does the protection. An effective protector is, well, Dr Kenneth Schneider says it better:

> As previously mentioned, the connection to earth ground can not be over

> emphasized. ...

>Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to ground. Once a threatening surge

> is detected, a lightning protection device grounds the incoming signal connection point of

> the equipment being protected. Thus, redirecting the threatening surge on a path-of-least

> resistance (impedance) to ground where it is absorbed.

>Any lightning protection device must be composed of two "subsystems," a switch which

> is essentially some type of switching circuitry and a good ground connection -to allow

> dissipation of the surge energy. The switch, of course, dominates the design and the cost.

> Yet, the need for a good ground connection can not be emphasized enough. Computer

> equipment has been damaged by lightning, not because of the absence of a protection

> device, but because inadequate attention was paid to grounding the device properly.


UL 1449 does not say anything about protection. UL 1449 testing even permitted a protector to completely fail. UL 1449 is all about human safety; not about transistor safety. Does not matter if a protector does no effective protection. Important: if it fails, then it does not kill humans. Too many cite UL1449 as proof of protection (transistor safety) rather than learn what UL is all about - human safety.


How effective is a protector? That is the art. Increase that distance from 6" to change test results. That wire to and the quality of earth ground ... well, no protector does protection. Protection is always and completely about the only thing that does protection. Single point earth ground. Where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.


Protector must be 50,000 amps so that a protector never fails even during a direct lightning strike. Protection - something completely different - is where energy dissipates.


Where are the testing results for single point earth ground? The question asked protection testing results. Therefore no protector is tested. Earthing for each building is tested.


----------



## Neurorad

Yeah, it looks like Eaton's stuff is UL listed, if that's what you mean by NRTL


Eaton Cutler Hammer surge devices UL summary
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/t...288&sequence=1


----------



## oppopioneer

westom why don't you post a photo of your house so we can see if it's properly grounded?


----------



## ChrisWiggles

westom has clearly been hit by too many lightning strikes. This comes with some significant cognitive downsides, unfortunately...


----------



## whoaru99

Anyone may dislike the way the information is communicated but it's essentially correct, is it not? IOW, low impedance grounding is key to effectively shunting surges and that is best accomplished at the service entrance rather than at the end of 50ft of 14ga wire, yes?


----------



## Gizmologist

What Westom cannot get to register is that no one has ever said that an end of the line surge protection system is all that is necessary and will stop a direct lightning hit from entering the home system. EVER.


We ARE saying that the TELCO and POCO grounding systems are quite good and effective BEFORE they enter a home and the incidences of a DIRECT hit on a home are exceedingly rare. The surges that are everyday occurrences on POCO lines everywhere are effectively dissipated by after market devices.


Brownouts and the resultant recovery surge are the most common on a large scale.


Internal home surges from HVAC etc cycling ARE effectively handled by these devices.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19623761
> 
> 
> Yeah, it looks like Eaton's stuff is UL listed, if that's what you mean by NRTL
> 
> 
> Eaton Cutler Hammer surge devices UL summary
> http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/t...288&sequence=1



Yes,


NRTL; Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory


Like UL, ETL, CSA, ETI


----------



## oppopioneer

Is there any difference at all and any benefit gain from placing a whole house surge protector outside the house or inside the house at the breaker box?


I believe that another reason to have a downstream surge eliminator plugged directly into your electronics is for a "soft turn on" when the power kicks back on after a brownout that it doesn't create a surge. Some surge eliminator/power conditioners have this feature. One of the most dangerous surges for electronics is not when the power kicks off, but when it kicks back on.


----------



## Neurorad

Model for Eaton's newest resi surge protection device at the service entrance is CHSPT2, can't find any for sale yet, online.


Would seem kind of tricky to mount these, with a recessed panel. Though, a flush plate is available, not sure if it will accomodate the resi 3-pack of AC/Phone/Coax. Maybe a separate flush mount box, adjacent to the panel, would be effective.


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/19625138
> 
> 
> What Westom cannot get to register is that no one has ever said that an end of the line surge protection system is all that is necessary and will stop a direct lightning hit from entering the home system. EVER.



Well, no, technically they haven't but it's sort of guilt by ignorance. Follow me on this...in reality, end of line is all that the overwhelming majority of typical consumers know, and therefore that's all they use/buy, quite potentially to little or no real benefit (or maybe even worse than without) - at least in the case of MOV. I think that's the whole point of many of his posts - most end of line is of little real benefit and most people don't know better ways exist that likely cost less. It's a rather simple point that I agree often gets lost in a bunch of "stuff".


----------



## oppopioneer

A SurgeX is capable of stopping a 6000 volt surge down stream, mov based power conditioners can't stop anything near that without suffering a catastrophic failure and many multiple smaller surges weakens the mov, but even if the mov is perfectly intact they divert the energy from the neutral to the ground which leads to ground contamination. Mov's are NOT suppose to be used downstream.


----------



## oppopioneer

The people on here who defend mov's have worked for companies that primarily sell and distribute mov's and install them so that's all they know and they don't like any other technology to come along and cut into the profits of the companies they work for and install for. There are no real engineers on here like from M.I.T. or any prestigious college who are top level engineers for any major international company, we usually get the average worker or salesman on here who gets hired to install devices for people in apartments and middle class suburban neighborhoods, they do a little work on the weekends to make ends meet, basically your run of the mill electrician who might have got a city or state license, plenty of those around who do real shoddy work. I love how Michael McCook at SurgeX basically sits the ignorant sheepie down and schools them and he doesn't get into silly immature flame wars.


A SurgeX is superior downstream than a mov based device is for protection at stopping surges.


I challenge anyone to make their own video and put it on YouTube and take a mov based power conditioner and send a 6000 volt surge through it and then through a SurgeX, I bet you the mov based device can't even handle any where near a 3000 volt surge without compromising the mov.


----------



## whoaru99

I don't know who you're responding to but if it's me you've completely missed my point.


Frankly, I think for most people they're _all_ a waste of money (or put more nicely, an unnecessary expense).


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19626780
> 
> 
> I don't know who you're responding to but if it's me you've completely missed my point.
> 
> 
> Frankly, I think for most people they're _all_ a waste of money (or put more nicely, an unnecessary expense).



No, I wasn't refering to you personally.


But if they are a "waste of money" or "unnecessary expense" why does NASA use a SurgeX surge eliminator to protect the uplink of the NASA Hubble Space Telescope and to protect the ISP's and electronics in the control booths at professional sports stadiums? Again, I just find it hard to believe that the uneducated opinions of amateurs and skeptics on here hold more weight than the actual top level engineers around the world. And whenever we do get a top level engineer on here to challenge any of the amateurs the amateurs sort of turn their noses up and brush it aside to mask their insecurity to a real challenge, so they rather get into flame wars here. Usually these forums are for amateur weekend warrior bullies who know just a little bit more than most the other amateurs and try to browbeat them in a intellectually dishonest way to make themselves feel superior.


I've posted multiple links/sources of the actual venues who use SurgeX and photos inside the control booth at Dallas Cowboys Stadium showing the SurgeX SX1120RT unit in use and someone says it's "B.S." so ignorant people can't be convinced. They're just ignorant.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19624043
> 
> 
> westom why don't you post a photo of your house so we can see if it's properly grounded?



Knowledge only from observation is also called junk science. Most will assume a protector is protection due to observation. Nobody can see earth ground. So those who only know from observation will never learn what really does the protection.


Obviously pictures of something that cannot be seen are futile. Obviously, I have been doing this stuff successfully for many decades. Obviously, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. And then add facts and numbers to further know it.


So, where are those manufacturer spec numbers that claim protection? Why so much naysaying from those who know ... when even the manufacturer will not make those protection claims.


Gizmologist - if a 'recovery surge' exists, then AC electricity that 'recovers' 120 times a second is creating massive surges constantly. There is not voltage spike when power is restored from a blackout. Just like there is no voltage spike when voltage and current both rise from zero 120 times a second. There is no excessive voltage spike when a power switch is clicked on. That voltage spike is another example of junk science conclusions only using observation and speculation.


Neurorad - a surge protector for cable and telephone are not required. All telephones already have a 'whole house' protector installed for free. Even required by FCC and other regulations. Existed even 70 years ago. Superior cable protection is a wire from that cable (short) to single point ground. Earth ground (not any protector) is the best protection. Cable needs no protector. The cable company is also required by regulations to earth their cable. Simply inspect it to confirm that technician properly installed the wire.


Yes, one cable installer pushed a ground wire into dirt in a flower box. He called that earthing. An example of why you want to inspect it.


oppopioneer - it makes no difference whether the protector is outside (assuming it is exterior rated) or inside. Critical is how every wire inside each utility cable connect to earth. The protector must be located so that the earth connection has no sharp bends, is not inside metallic conduit, is as short as practicable, is separated from other non-grounding wires, and other parameters. Essential, as whoaru99 noted, "low impedance grounding is key to effectively shunting surges". Remember, you are installing a protector to conduct direct lightning strikes harmlessly to earth. Sharp wire bends and other violations increase impedance. Not resistance; impedance. Increased impedance to single point ground means less protection.


And finally for all - MOVs are some of the best protector devices available. If improperly designed into plug-in protectors (without earthing) or if that protector is grossly undersized (to get the naive to recommend it), then the protector fails. Any protector that fails is best called a scam. 'Whole house' protectors (most use MOVs) are designed to conduct even direct lightning strikes harmlessly to earth. And remain functional. Also how it is done in every facility that can not suffer damage.


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19626886
> 
> 
> No, I wasn't refering to you personally.
> 
> 
> But if they are a "waste of money" or "unnecessary expense" why does NASA use a SurgeX surge eliminator to protect the uplink of the NASA Hubble Space Telescope and to protect the ISP's and electronics in the control booths at professional sports stadiums? Again, I just find it hard to believe that the uneducated opinions of amateurs and skeptics on here hold more weight than the actual top level engineers around the world. And whenever we do get a top level engineer on here to challenge any of the amateurs the amateurs sort of turn their noses up and brush it aside to mask their insecurity to a real challenge, so they rather get into flame wars here. Usually these forums are for amateur weekend warrior bullies who know just a little bit more than most the other amateurs and try to browbeat them in a intellectually dishonest way to make themselves feel superior.
> 
> 
> I've posted multiple links/sources of the actual venues who use SurgeX and photos inside the control booth at Dallas Cowboys Stadium showing the SurgeX SX1120RT unit in use and someone says it's "B.S." so ignorant people can't be convinced. They're just ignorant.



It's about risk management for some, but mainly about fear for the average consumer. You can sell just about anything to anyone if you push their fear button, then offer a means to alleviate the fear.


My gear has had unprotected sex with the AC mains for 'round about 30 years and I do not know of one failure related to surges. In fact, I'm hardpressed to think of any failures at all attributed to power supply condtions. Could it happen tomorrow? Sure, but odds seem that it won't. Hence, for me, it seems surge protection is an unnecessary expense...as I think it is for many, dare I say most, people. Maybe if I lived in lightning alley or somewhere with really ****** power I might be signing a different tune.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19626607
> 
> 
> A SurgeX is superior downstream than a mov based device is for protection at stopping surges.



Nothing stops a surge. No matter how many times a current source is explained, you still ignore it. And claim something will stop a surge.


This is obviously not for oppopioneer's benefit. This if the others who would otherwise be deceived by his post. From the NIST (US government research agency) and what he constantly ignores:

> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these

> protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply

> divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.


Divert. Not stop. Not absorb. Not block. Not discourage. Not alleviate. Not delay. Not diminish. Voltage will increase as necessary so that the same current will flow. How to have a massive surge that is lower (harmless) voltage? Divert. What did surge protectors do even 100 years ago? Divert. What makes a Ben Franklin lightning rod so effective? It diverts. Divert to where? Where energy harmlessly dissipates. Earth ground.


What happens when a Surgex tries to stop a surge? Voltage increases as necessary to blow through. Or the surge takes a third wire bypassing the Surgex. This has been posted at least four times in this thread. He does not deny it. He just ignored it because a sales brochure did not say it.


If a Surgex really did what he posted, then he also posted manufacturer numeric specs. He cannot. Destructive surges are not stopped by a series mode filter. What always does protection? Harmlessly divert surge current.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19626607
> 
> 
> I challenge anyone to make their own video and put it on YouTube and take a mov based power conditioner and send a 6000 volt surge through it and then through a SurgeX, I bet you the mov based device can't even handle any where near a 3000 volt surge without compromising the mov.




You will lose that bet... using a quality MOV device on the market now with UL1449 ratings.


You are doing it again....with the baseless statements.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19626244
> 
> 
> Well, no, technically they haven't but it's sort of guilt by ignorance. Follow me on this...in reality, end of line is all that the overwhelming majority of typical consumers know, and therefore that's all they use/buy, quite potentially to little or no real benefit (or maybe even worse than without) - at least in the case of MOV. I think that's the whole point of many of his posts - most end of line is of little real benefit and most people don't know better ways exist that likely cost less. It's a rather simple point that I agree often gets lost in a bunch of "stuff".




You have hit the nail on the head. Additionally, many here will purchase a plug in unit for $300-$500 or more to protect a few items within their residence when that same amount can protect the entire residence if installed at the main service entrance with no downstream protection needed.


----------



## Neurorad

There is a direct connect from my incoming coax cable (and possibly the telephone) to the house ground, just below the meter.


Would an MOV-based SPD, installed downstream from this ground, help alleviate a surge, if they're using the same house ground wire?


I guess I need to read up on how MOVs work, inside the SPD.


I'm worried about the lighting strike to a tree between the road and my house. I understand there is additional utility installed grounding at/near the road (or there should be, is what you're saying).


What type of device would be used for the irrigation controller, plugged into a garage AC outlet, as a SPD? Similarly, the LV landscape lights would have something, too.


When I read about MOVs inside SPDs, I guess I'll learn how SPDs at the service entrance diminish internal surges, inside the house.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19627606
> 
> 
> Would an MOV-based SPD, installed downstream from this ground, help alleviate a surge, if they're using the same house ground wire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If this is where your driven rod is installed....then yes. You would typically have the SPD installed in your service entrance panel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I guess I need to read up on how MOVs work, inside the SPD.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The MOV is pretty simple. The device acts like a switch. When a voltage exceeding its design is applied across the two leads, the material becomes conductive and shorts the two leads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> When I read about MOVs inside SPDs, I guess I'll learn how SPDs at the service entrance diminish internal surges, inside the house.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


The SPD is a non-directional device. No matter what direction the overvoltage condition is applied, it will cause operation of the internal MOVs and networks.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19627606
> 
> 
> Would an MOV-based SPD, installed downstream from this ground, help alleviate a surge, if they're using the same house ground wire?
> 
> 
> I guess I need to read up on how MOVs work, inside the SPD.



I keep saying this. And still it gets ignored. No protector does protection. None. Not a plug-in one. Not a 'whole house' one. Not a series mode filter.


You can have one protector or 100 protectors. And you still have the same protection. Why? Once simple sentence: A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


Every protection layer is defined by the only thing that does protection. Earth ground. Some surge protection system need no protectors. But every protection system always needs one component - that ground.


How to increase the effectiveness of one protector or 100 protectors. Upgrade what does the protection - single point earth ground.


Now, go back and read the Dr Kenneth Schneider quote some 23 posts ago. What does an MOV do? It has been posted numerous times. Maybe Dr Schneider says it better. Or please post why you still do not get it.


Protection is always about where energy dissipates. We have been discussing your secondary protection system - where cable, telephone and AC electric get earthed. A picture of what you inspect for your primary protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html 

Again, that is where maybe 20,000 amps are harmlessly diverted so that you have no household damage. And is important for many other reasons that are too complex and numerous to currently discuss.


Right now, you are only interested in the only thing that does protection. As was quoted again and again, effective protectors 'divert' to protection. Protectors do not do protection. As Dr Schneider said, protectors act as switches. As the NIST said, protectors divert. As the IEEE Green Book says in 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':

> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path

> which will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19627419
> 
> 
> You will lose that bet... using a quality MOV device on the market now with UL1449 ratings.
> 
> 
> You are doing it again....with the baseless statements.



Why don't you make a video and put it on YouTube of sending a 6000 volt surge through a Monster, APC, Triplite and Panamax and then a SurgeX. I doubt you will since you're all talk.


But what is a "quality MOV device" for downstream plug in applications that can take a 6000 volt surge and what country was it made in in what factory so we can see the quality control. All these people wanting SurgeX to release it's patended numbers are the ones who buy into the Walmart/Best Buy/Staples/Office Max mickey mouse mov's that are made in China in undisclosed factories where teenagers are putting them together. Maybe you should stop defending Chinese plastic Panamax and Monster junk that are of a Fisher Price toy unless you're a Best Buy worker who makes a commission selling that Mars dust.


----------



## oppopioneer

westom, SurgeX and any other company isn't going to release proprietary which are either patended or vulnerable for competitors to copy. Many of these workers sign confidentiality agreements too with companies because of this.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19627205
> 
> 
> It's about risk management for some, but mainly about fear for the average consumer. You can sell just about anything to anyone if you push their fear button, then offer a means to alleviate the fear.
> 
> 
> My gear has had unprotected sex with the AC mains for 'round about 30 years and I do not know of one failure related to surges. In fact, I'm hardpressed to think of any failures at all attributed to power supply condtions. Could it happen tomorrow? Sure, but odds seem that it won't. Hence, for me, it seems surge protection is an unnecessary expense...as I think it is for many, dare I say most, people. Maybe if I lived in lightning alley or somewhere with really ****** power I might be signing a different tune.



Well you're lucky...


This analogy has been used before so I'll copy it, one cannot make the argument that since nothing has ever happened to my equipment using APC/Monster/K-Mart surge strip/or nothing Etc., then it MUST be doing it's job. It's like saying that since I always wear a sweatshirt, I've never had a bullet penetrate into my chest. I've also never been shot.


----------



## Gizmologist

I am so glad Westom is here to teach everyone about electricity. Yea, right.


Not to get too involved here but Westom you are full of it. That is all. Don't bother to respond, you have not had an original thought in 300 posts on this.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19627343
> 
> 
> This is obviously not for oppopioneer's benefit. This if the others who would otherwise be deceived by his post. From the NIST (US government research agency) and what he constantly ignores:
> 
> > You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these
> 
> > protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
> 
> > divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.



You now want us to trust the U.S. govt after you said it lied about WMD's in Iraq?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Same technique also proved another myth. Saddam had WMDs because a majority only believe what advertising orders them to believe. Lemmings.



Another reason why I don't want the U.S. govt controlling my healthcare.


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19628304
> 
> 
> Well you're lucky...
> 
> 
> This analogy has been used before so I'll copy it, one cannot make the argument that since nothing has ever happened to my equipment using APC/Monster/K-Mart surge strip/or nothing Etc., then it MUST be doing it's job. It's like saying that since I always wear a sweatshirt, I've never had a bullet penetrate into my chest. I've also never been shot.



Well...except that's a backward analogy. I have been using nothing so there is no speculation to debate if something has done it's job or not.


Am I (just lucky)? 30 years is a pretty long lucky streak. Likely it's a combination of several things...


1. Spikes and surges large enough to damage gear just aren't that frequent.

2. I live in an area that does not have frequent lightning, although summer storms are not uncommon.

3. Gear just isn't as fragile as some would have you believe.

4. People running into high line poles and trees falling on HV distribution wires and knocking them onto your service distro isn't too common.


Like I said before, fear mongering is a strong tactic...after all, who _wouldn't_ want to protect their valuable new plasma TV or HT processor against all that crappy power out there.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19628672
> 
> 
> Well...except that's a backward analogy. I have been using nothing so there is no speculation to debate if something has done it's job or not.
> 
> 
> ...after all, who _wouldn't_ want to protect their valuable new plasma TV or HT processor against all that crappy power out there.



Your personal luck has nothing to do with the millions of people in this country who have lost electronics from bad electricity, storms, accidents etc...


In December '08 here in New England we had a massive ice storm that knocked out power in some areas for 3 weeks knocking trees and power lines down for miles, the steets were littered with power lines. A branch broke off and came down on our wires that go above and across our driveway connected to the meter box and tore the meter box right off the side of our house and smashed all over the driveway. My dad happened to be driving home that night and while driving down the hill he saw the entire city go out, blasts from all the utility poles across the city were lighting up the sky, I got up to go to the bathroom around 1 am and I thought it was lightning outside but it was our utility pole blowing up and I could hear loud electrical buzz and pops. We were without power for around 8 days and had to live in a motel all in 15 degree weather because without heat the inside of your house is as cold as the outside. Many many people lost electronics. While our neighbors got their electricity back sooner we had to wait for a few more days for a electrician to come and put back on a new meter box because National Grid said they can't touch our house until there is a meter box put on and the electricians all over the state were backed up working overtime. Now all of this happened before I had a HT, now I have a $5000+ Pioneer Elite Kuro 60" inch plasma and other electronics, every winter we have the possibility facing that up here. All over the southeast with lightning storms they lose far more amounts of electronic equipment than we do too. But atleast we had our safey, there is more to life than electronics and what the people in Haiti and other countries go through is far worse.


This was our ice storm:

http://harvardpress.com/Photos/tabid...y_is_born.aspx 


Nearly 1 million remain without power after ice storm

President Bush has authorized federal aid by declaring a state of emergency in New Hampshire and Massachusetts.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/bre...orm_leave.html


----------



## Neurorad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19627836
> 
> 
> I keep saying this. And still it gets ignored. No protector does protection. None. Not a plug-in one. Not a 'whole house' one. Not a series mode filter.



Are you trying to say that there is no benefit to using a SPD, at the service entrance, if there is already a direct connection to the ground, at the service entrance?


That is, since the ground is right there already, that it's just a waste?


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19628270
> 
> 
> Why don't you make a video and put it on YouTube of sending a 6000 volt surge through a Monster, APC, Triplite and Panamax and then a SurgeX. I doubt you will since you're all talk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What would be the point of this...you would not believe it anyway! Unless it was provided by the SurgeX folks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> But what is a "quality MOV device" for downstream plug in applications that can take a 6000 volt surge and what country was it made in in what factory so we can see the quality control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The IT units which I have personally witnessed, for which I have provided you links as well, will handle all three standard test waveforms, hundreds or or even thousands of times without failure. Made in the USA or Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> All these people wanting SurgeX to release it's patended numbers are the ones who buy into the Walmart/Best Buy/Staples/Office Max mickey mouse mov's that are made in China in undisclosed factories where teenagers are putting them together.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There are no patented numbers, these tests are standards which all manufacturers suppression units must pass in order to gain the UL1449 certification. Again, lack of understanding on your part. Please learn about the things you are attempting to discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Maybe you should stop defending Chinese plastic Panamax and Monster junk that are of a Fisher Price toy unless you're a Best Buy worker who makes a commission selling that Mars dust.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Your statements are becoming more ridiculous as this thread devolves.


You need to give M. McCook a call back and learn many additional things about suppression...it is painfully obvious that you are not capable of understanding the information provided...or simply just not willing.


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19629309
> 
> 
> Your personal luck has nothing to do with the millions of people in this country who have lost electronics from bad electricity, storms, accidents etc...



Oh my...let the fearmongering continue.


I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune, but it doesn't change my opinion that the necessity of surge protection is largely overblown and fueled by unfounded fear. If you feel better about having surge protection knock yourself out, but don't shill it like it's certain disaster without because that's clearly not the case.


----------



## G-Rex

I have done extensive reading on audiogon because people on that forum aren't as frugul as many here there are many more accounts of what high end protection devices people have used and what the results were during lightning strikes, power out/on cycles, brownouts, duration overvoltage...some interesting reading.


There is even an engineer on one thread who states he uses Brickwall and SurgeX in his home to protect his gear (along with a whole house) with good results.


New England can have very strong thunderstorms in summer and winter storms that can wreak havoc on power. I also live in New England, hence the precautions I have taken in my home.


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Rex* /forum/post/19630491
> 
> 
> I have done extensive reading on audiogon because people on that forum aren't as frugul as many here there are many more accounts of what high end protection devices people have used and what the results were during lightning strikes, power out/on cycles, brownouts, duration overvoltage...some interesting reading.
> 
> 
> There is even an engineer on one thread who states he uses Brickwall and SurgeX in his home to protect his gear (along with a whole house) with good results.
> 
> 
> New England can have very strong thunderstorms in summer and winter storms that can wreak havoc on power. I also live in New England, hence the precautions I have taken in my home.



See, the problem is that if nothing blows up then it's just assumed the "protection" did the job. But, just because nothing blew up really isn't proof the device did anything.


BTW, I live in Minnesota and we do have summer storms and winter storms as well. Matter of fact, we're having a bit of a blizzard right now.


----------



## G-Rex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19630704
> 
> 
> See, the problem is that if nothing blows up then it's just assumed the "protection" did the job. But, just because nothing blew up really isn't proof the device did anything.
> 
> 
> BTW, I live in Minnesota and we do have summer storms and winter storms as well. Matter of fact, we're having a bit of a blizzard right now.




No you missed my point. I am not talking about the assumption that all is well because nothing is damaged. The accounts at Audiogon I'm referring to are where entire homes sustained damage from a well documented surge or nearby lightning strike. Interesting to read what electronics survived and which ones did not and why. Damage to appliances, electronics, alarm system... getting various degrees of damage. There are even some accounts stating what the insurance company investigations revealed.


----------



## G-Rex

Furman multistage protection with shutdown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JujCqjLSQF8 


Putting a whole house mov based protector at the panel is one thing, but having them scattered throughout my home is another.


A lightning strike can occur a great distance away and still magnetically/capacitively couple to the wiring in your house after the whole house rendering it ineffective because it has been essentially bypassed. Another reason why good surge protection is needed at the components as well.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19630392
> 
> 
> What would be the point of this...you would not believe it anyway! Unless it was provided by the SurgeX folksYour statements are becoming more ridiculous as this thread devolves.



Again, you cowardly run away, you've been provided with numerous sources and links and then you deny them and accuse me of the samethings you have already done, and you won't make a video of it because you know the results wouldn't be in your favor. I'll bet you $5000 a Monster/Panamax/APC/Triplite (which are all the same) will not survive a 6000 volt surge. (Now everyone watch, he'll dodge this and make a excuse as to back down from the challenge)


Now prove the Dallas Cowboys Stadium doesn't use the SurgeX SX1120RT through out their stadium like they claim and provide your own source to counter mine as you said it's "BS" but you didn't provide your evidence for that claim.

http://www.listentech.com/blog/Dalla...lights-Listen/ 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The IT units which I have personally witnessed, for which I have provided you links as well, will handle all three standard test waveforms, hundreds or or even thousands of times without failure. Made in the USA or Canada.



Why do you keep comparing a SurgeX downstream plug-in protector to a "whole house surge protector" ? Why are you conveniently not mentioning "downstream" mov based power conditioners like Monster, Panamax, APC, Triplite? You continue to do this in this debate and leave out important things just to try to in a debate.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19630392
> 
> 
> You need to give M. McCook a call back and learn many additional things about suppression...it is painfully obvious that you are not capable of understanding the information provided...or simply just not willing.



Already have, he thinks you're the typical flamer who sits online all day starting flame wars who doesn't even have a real job (as you are on here all day talking about how experienced you are instead of out in the field working.)







Now go running and crying to him for support. Funny how Michael McCook and I agree and after he schooled you, you now want to use him as a source when in fact he knows you're a loser and a complete idiot who knows nothing about proper surge protection other than doing the typical random 8th grade science experiment in your basement.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19630449
> 
> 
> Oh my...let the fearmongering continue.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune, but it doesn't change my opinion that the necessity of surge protection is largely overblown and fueled by unfounded fear. If you feel better about having surge protection knock yourself out, but don't shill it like it's certain disaster without because that's clearly not the case.



Your personal luck in life has nothing incommon with the millions of people who lost electronics due to power outages etc. I guess you're "special" and like you said it's your "opinion" which doesn't hold weight and you can't back up other than your one personal experience. There's a reason why NASA, most professional sports stadiums, concert halls, recording studios, hospitals, govt buildings, financial buildings etc use surge protectors and it's not about "peace of mind" either. lol Please go get a proper education and travel.


Most cops have never been shot either, so they shouldn't wear bullet proof vests I guess.


----------



## Outlaw30




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Rex* /forum/post/19630824
> 
> 
> Furman multistage protection with shutdown
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JujCqjLSQF8
> 
> 
> Putting a whole house mov based protector at the panel is one thing, but having them scattered throughout my home is another.
> 
> 
> A lightning strike can occur a great distance away and still couple to the wiring in your house after the whole house rendering it ineffective because it has been essentially bypassed. Another reason why good surge protection is needed at the components.



Yikes!







That video is scary! Like I always say. You get what you pay for.


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19630972
> 
> 
> Please go get a proper education and travel.



Ahhhh....I see. Out of real logic, eh?


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19631106
> 
> 
> I do have somewhat of an education, and have been to several different continents.
> 
> 
> Mebbe you shouldn't worry so much.



Those even with no education can still spell "Maybe" correctly.







And no you have not been to several different continents.


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19631127
> 
> 
> Those even with no education can still spell "Maybe" correctly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And no you have not been to several different continents.



Mebbe. Mebbe. Mebbe. Mebbe. Mebbe.


And yeah, I have. A few of them even more than once.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19631179
> 
> 
> Mebbe. Mebbe. Mebbe. Mebbe. Mebbe.
> 
> 
> And yeah, I have. A few of them even more than once.



Ok, whatever you say Anthony Bourdain.


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19631223
> 
> 
> Ok, whatever you say Anthony Bourdain.



Well, when in Rome, so to speak, you eat what's available.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19631270
> 
> 
> Well, when in Rome, so to speak, you eat what's available.



Sure, but you never been to Rome, but this is the last I will respond or see your posts as I put you on ignore/block. Bye *CLICK*


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19631278
> 
> 
> Sure, but you never been to Rome, but this is the last I will respond and read your posts. Bye



In this case you're right, I haven't been to Rome. Then again, I never claimed that I had.


Ignore? Ohhhh...pick up your marbles and go home.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19630957
> 
> 
> Again, you cowardly run away, you've been provided with numerous sources and links and then you deny them and accuse me of the samethings you have already done, and you won't make a video of it because you know the results wouldn't be in your favor. I'll bet you $5000 a Monster/Panamax/APC/Triplite (which are all the same) will not survive a 6000 volt surge. (Now everyone watch, he'll dodge this and make a excuse as to back down from the challenge)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You act like a child. Your scooling continues below, please read.
> 
> 1) If those units which you are so fond of above have the UL1449 listing, then they have been tested to the standards which all devices require to acquire the 1449 rating. The device manufacturers then should publish the actual let-through voltages, combination wave performance and ring wave performance like any responsible manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Now prove the Dallas Cowboys Stadium doesn't use the SurgeX SX1120RT through out their stadium like they claim and provide your own source to counter mine as you said it's "BS" but you didn't provide your evidence for that claim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again? Who cares. This has no bearing on the performance of any technologies. Good salesmen can sell ice to eskimoes. Your thought process is just ridiculous and silly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Why do you keep comparing a SurgeX downstream plug-in protector to a "whole house surge protector" ? Why are you conveniently not mentioning "downstream" mov based power conditioners like Monster, Panamax, APC, Triplite? You continue to do this in this debate and leave out important things just to try to in a debate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have not indicated one way or the other the types of devices I am discussing. Simply that your statements and reasoning are questionable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Already have, he thinks you're the typical flamer who sits online all day starting flame wars who doesn't even have a real job (as you are on here all day talking about how experienced you are instead of out in the field working.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now go running and crying to him for support. Funny how Michael McCook and I agree and after he schooled you, you now want to use him as a source when in fact he knows you're a loser and a complete idiot who knows nothing about proper surge protection other than doing the typical random 8th grade science experiment in your basement.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


This is too funny....

If Mr. McCook thinks that I am a flamer and don't know what I am talking about, I would like him to come to these forums and indicate such.


Your response here makes me now believe that you have not spoken to him about my discussion with him. He seems to be a professional...whereas you act like a child with a fetish for equipment you have purchased.


----------



## Gizmologist

If I were one of the SurgeX naysayers, I would take a look at the list of SurgeX clients and it becomes rather apparent that companies all over the globe with hundreds of millions of dollars in purchasing power and with critical system requirements are relying on SurgeX rather successfully.


I own no stock in the company BUT they have a stellar reputation in the pro biz.


The companies and establishments shown have budgets to allow them to but any system they want and they all come back with SurgeX. That SHOULD tell you something.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19631757
> 
> 
> You act like a child. Your scooling continues



You should try to come up with your own original thoughts instead of copy and use what I say like: "schooling", be original.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19631757
> 
> 
> below, please read.
> 
> 1) If those units which you are so fond of above have the UL1449 listing, then they have been tested to the standards which all devices require to acquire the 1449 rating. The device manufacturers then should publish the actual let-through voltages, combination wave performance and ring wave performance like any responsible manufacturer.



Companies will not release any information about their product that their competitors can copy that they weren't able to get a patent on, but SurgeX also has patents on other technology.


All of SurgeX's products are UL rated:


UL 1449 Adjunct Classification Test Results:

1000 surges, 6000 volts, 3000 amps, B3 pulse.

Measured suppressed voltage: 170 volts, no failures


Federal Guidelines: Grade A, Class 1, Mode 1 (CID A-A-55818)


Agency Listings: ETL and cETL (UL 1449, 2nd edition;

CSA C22.2 No.8-M1986, R2000)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19631757
> 
> 
> Again? Who cares. This has no bearing on the performance of any technologies. Good salesmen can sell ice to eskimoes. Your thought process is just ridiculous and silly.



Your response is: "Who cares" ? lol That's how you respond to that when challenged to back up claims and provide a source? Come on, how old are you? I'm thinking maybe 19?


Again, multi-billion dollar projects aren't going to allow any salesman to come along and put whatever into their project. So did you call Michael McCook a typical salesman who sells ice to eskimos? You now kiss his ass but you still question his product.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19631757
> 
> 
> This is too funny....
> 
> If Mr. McCook thinks that I am a flamer and don't know what I am talking about, I would like him to come to these forums and indicate such.
> 
> 
> Your response here makes me now believe that you have not spoken to him about my discussion with him. He seems to be a professional...whereas you act like a child with a fetish for equipment you have purchased.



I have spoken to him, call him up and ask him, go running to him like a little child: "Mr McCook!! Mr McCook!! Did you really call me a loser, they're picking one me!! waaa waaa waaa." lol Go give him a call. It's funny how now you want to use Mike as a source after you still don't believe his product and accuse him of not releasing numbers to you on the performance of his product. So which is it? He's either a credible man who has a excellent product or he's just a: "sales man who sells ice to eskimos." ?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19631757
> 
> 
> Again? Who cares. This has no bearing on the performance of any technologies. Good salesmen can sell ice to eskimoes. Your thought process is just ridiculous and silly.













By the way, you've never proven who you are and the name of your "company" you claim you own. I'm not a engineer or associated with this industry, but you claim to be a "expert" but you never back up anything you say, you're just like those YouTuber juveniles who post comments under videos fighting with people claiming you're the expert on the video being played.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/19631855
> 
> 
> If I were one of the SurgeX naysayers, I would take a look at the list of SurgeX clients and it becomes rather apparent that companies all over the globe with hundreds of millions of dollars in purchasing power and with critical system requirements are relying on SurgeX rather successfully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are directing your post at me, you need to take a look at my posts... I have never said a disparaging thing about the SurgeX product. I don't know enough about the internal networks and how they operate to make a final judgement. I have been correcting misinformation about the way suppression works and some of the other technologies out there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I own no stock in the company BUT they have a stellar reputation in the pro biz.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is great...I applaud them, but it is a very small segment of the induystry which uses power. I don't own stock in any of these companies, or sell any of the products either. I simply test them on occasion. There are many much larger companies out there selling competing products which can provide excellent results as well. Some listed here are Emerson (liebert), Square D (APC, MGE), ONEAC, Eaton, Siemens, etc. Most of these companies have excellent reputations....no? They also sell *millions* of these units between them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> The companies and establishments shown have budgets to allow them to but any system they want and they all come back with SurgeX. That SHOULD tell you something.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


See above statement by me. Please find out for me which products are being used at the incoming service entrance panel which is providing the protection for the entire facility. Now if you recognize what is happening here, the main protection is at the service entrance in most instances, not downstream ( if the owner has had a properly designed power system installed). Voltage events from outside the facility will be mitigated by the unit installed at the service entrance....generally to a point where downstream equipment will not be adversely affected anyway. A point of use unit downstream should help to further mitigate any overvoltage which is allowed to pass through the unit at the service entrance. You need to also realize that the energy which manages to pass the main unit (let-through voltage) will be further mitigated by the impedance of the load wiring. What this means, is that the unit downstream, no matter what it is, will deal with a much, much smaller amount of energy (magnitudes less).


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19631974
> 
> 
> You should try to come up with your own original thoughts instead of copy and use what I say like: "schooling", be original.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of SurgeX's products are UL rated:
> 
> 
> UL 1449 Adjunct Classification Test Results:
> 
> 1000 surges, 6000 volts, 3000 amps, B3 pulse.
> 
> Measured suppressed voltage: 170 volts, no failures
> 
> 
> Federal Guidelines: Grade A, Class 1, Mode 1 (CID A-A-55818)
> 
> 
> Agency Listings: ETL and cETL (UL 1449, 2nd edition;
> 
> CSA C22.2 No.8-M1986, R2000)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Again, multi-billion dollar projects aren't going to allow any salesman to come along and put whatever into their project. So did you call Michael McCook a typical salesman who sells ice to eskimos? You now kiss his ass but you still question his product.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happens all of the time... you should work on/at government and state projects
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I have spoken to him, call him up and ask him, go running to him like a little child: "Mr McCook!! Mr McCook!! Did you really call me a loser, they're picking one me!! waaa waaa waaa." lol Go give him a call. It's funny how now you want to use Mike as a source after you still don't believe his product and accuse him of not releasing numbers to you on the performance of his product. So which is it? He's either a credible man who has a excellent product or he's just a: "sales man who sells ice to eskimos." ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You need to call him again and get yourself straightened out.... I'll bet he would be embarrassed by your behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> By the way, you've never proven who you are and the name of your "company" you claim you own. I'm not a engineer or associated with this industry, but you claim to be a "expert" but you never back up anything you say, you're just like those YouTuber juveniles who post comments under videos fighting with people claiming you're the expert on the video being played.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I listed the company and the web address way back in this thread, but you poo pooed it and said it didn't matter anyway, so what is the point.


----------



## Gizmologist

I was directing the comment at all the naysayers, not you in specific. However, let me assure that NO ONE relies on service entrance surge protection only.


When you get into large scale power distro system that include switch gear handling thousands of amps at 480-600 volts that feed step down transformers and then into 120v load centers there are certainly surges from HVAC and refrigeration equipment, air handlers, lighting loads etc that are well mitigated by the SurgeX et al systems.


At NO TIME did I ever intimate that SurgeX was the be all- end all and sole supplier of said equipment. I DID sat they have a stellar reputation and the pro audio world you will see 2 names- SurgeX and Furman.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Happens all of the time... you should work on/at government and state projects



hahah government? A government that doesn't know how to keep it's most top level national security documents secret (Wikileaks) or not even manage the Census Bureau properly isn't anything to be proud of, bunch of leeches who live off tax payer funded pensions, maybe you should go work for government if you don't already and wire a ACORN office. Most government projects are just corrupt tax payer funded pork barrel projects (Bridge To No Where) by politicians who hire their buddies who hire more beurocrats and set them up with cushy govt jobs that drive up more debt aka stimulus. My governor of Massachusetts Deval Patrick hired his best friend to overlook the building of new railroad tracks and he's making $150,000 a year off tax payers and we're in record debt.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You need to call him again and get yourself straightened out.... I'll bet he would be embarrassed by your behavior



Why? He agrees with me and I agree with him, I am a proud customer of SurgeX and trust them and I don't question their numbers or why they don't release what you claim they aren't releasing. I'll be buying another product from them next week, either the SA82 or XF2. They truly are great products and superior to mov's for downstream surge protection.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/19632654
> 
> 
> I was directing the comment at all the naysayers, not you in specific. However, let me assure that NO ONE relies on service entrance surge protection only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one in the ProAudo Biz or no one in general? I see large power systems installed on a regular basis without any suppression-anywhere in the system!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> When you get into large scale power distro system that include switch gear handling thousands of amps at 480-600 volts that feed step down transformers and then into 120v load centers there are certainly surges from HVAC and refrigeration equipment, air handlers, lighting loads etc that are well mitigated by the SurgeX et al systems.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just finished testing a 3000A switchboard at Midway airport in Chicago for example (installed in 2008). No protection at the service entrance, no protection at any subpanels...none. Once you pass through a transformer, you have again buffered any voltage irregularities from the higher voltage windings.
> 
> 
> At NO TIME did I ever intimate that SurgeX was the be all- end all and sole supplier of said equipment. I DID sat they have a stellar reputation and the pro audio world you will see 2 names- SurgeX and Furman.
Click to expand...


I did not intimate that you did, however, in the scheme of things, these products are a very small percentage of the total products out there, and they have not been around as long as some of the other technologies.


----------



## oppopioneer

AV Doogie, I'm done, no more games...


I am looking into buying one of SurgeX's FlatPak models to protect my plasma tv. Either the SurgeX SA82 or XF2. I'm trying to figure out if they are identical or not, one is the ProAV model and the other is the Residential model, is one better than the other? It will be protecting a Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-151FD 60" inch plasma. Those SurgeX models are rated for 8 amps so I'm not sure if they're powerful enough? I looked up power requirements for an NEC 60 inch plasma, said 440 watt draw typical (around 4amp) but I'm not sure what my plasma specifically draws.


SA82 http://surgex.com/products/sa82FlatPak.html 


or


XF2 http://surgex.com/residential/index.html 


My computer won't allow me to open pdf files so I can't get the specs.










Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## Gizmologist

"Once you pass through a transformer, you have again buffered any voltage irregularities from the higher voltage windings."


Good thing for us you wont be doing any electrical work at any of our venues!


Whatever comes into a transformer will be increased/ decreased or buffered in a ratio of the output. Step/down transformers do NOT stop surges.


I work in convention centers, office buildings, convention sized hotels and with portable equipment for all types of multimedia exhibitions for some of the largest names in the industry. There ARE extensive surge protection systems in these venues as the loads of the building infrastructure as well as whatever group co9ntracts to use the facility present an extremely varied array of loads.


Perhaps you should contact the hundreds of clients of SurgeX et al and inform them YOU don't agree with there choice of gear. Let us know what they say AFTER they finish laughing.


----------



## whoaru99

Please include the name when quoting someone. It makes it easier to follow along with who's being belittled at any given time.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Rex* /forum/post/19630491
> 
> 
> I have done extensive reading on audiogon because people on that forum aren't as frugul as many here there are many more accounts of what high end protection devices people have used and what the results were during lightning strikes, power out/on cycles, brownouts, duration overvoltage...some interesting reading.
> 
> 
> There is even an engineer on one thread who states he uses Brickwall and SurgeX in his home to protect his gear (along with a whole house) with good results.



G Rex can you please post a link to that audiogon section? Sounds interesting.


----------



## westom

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* 
Step/down transformers do NOT stop surges.
We do not tell installers and techs why or what each connection does. A properly installed transformer does surge protection as defined by Figure 8 captioned "Division of current assumed for a 100kA stroke." That transformer earths a 40kA surge in the 1980 IEEE paper entitled "Coordination of Surge Protectors in Low-Voltage AC Power Circuits."


Transformer is an important part of every homeowner's primary surge protection 'system'. Installers need not be informed; are only told what to connect where. Would not know why transformers are important for effective surge protection.


----------



## westom

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Neurorad* 
Are you trying to say that there is no benefit to using a SPD, at the service entrance, if there is already a direct connection to the ground, at the service entrance?
AC electric may be three wires. Which wires do not connect to earth? All but one has no earth ground. A homeowner is expected to know what is meant by earthing.


Most AC wires carry energy destructively inside a building. Once that energy is inside, nothing can stop a destructive hunt for earth.


AC service is earthed to meet code. Does that mean every single wire in every cable connects to earth? Obviously not. Therefore surge protection does not exist. Perspective. Earthing for human safety says only one wire is earthed. Earthing for transistor safety says all wires must be earthed.


If this is new, then you will not understand any of it until you reread multiple times. For me, nothing new and technical makes sense without at least three rereads. Apparently you have not yet reread them enough. Rereading is required for anything that is new and technical.


As said repeatedly, every incoming wire must connect to earth. Directly earth all three AC electric wires to have surge protection. Then AC electricity is not provided. So connect the other two wires to earth via a switch - as Dr Kenneth Schneider said:

> Once a threatening surge is detected, a lightning protection device grounds the incoming

> signal ... Thus, redirecting the threatening surge on a path-of-least resistance

> (impedance) to ground where it is absorbed.


Or Sun Microsystems for each and every wire:

> These should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to ground


Or the military's Grounding, Bonding, and Shielding for Electronic Equipments and Facilities:

> Transient suppression design. To provide effective protection, equal suppression

> must be installed line-to-ground on each service conductor input and the neutral input.


In a 1997 discussion among Ham operators entitled "Lightning and ground systems":

> The basic scenario is to install a Single Point Ground System that is installed

> at the building entry. It shunts everything to ground before it goes in the building.

> If you can keep it outside, then you don't really have to do much inside. IMO

> disconnecting the cables is more psychological than preventive.


Again, protection is always about where energy dissipates.


Were they discussing earthing for human protection? Or earthing for transistor protection? Again earthing must meet *and exceed* post 1990 code requirements.


If you do not earth every wire, then surge energy may be inside the building. Every thought and question must reference or ask, "Where does energy on each wire dissipate?" Southwest Bell was blunt about this in "How can I protect my DSL/dialup equipment from surges?"

> By far, the whole house hardwired surge protectors provide the best protection. When a whole

> house primary surge protector is installed at the service entrance, it will provide a

solid first

> line of defense against surges which enter from the power company's service entrance feed.

> These types of protectors can absorb/pass considerably more energy than any other type of

> protector, and if one does catastrophically fail, it will not typically be in a living

> space. ...

> Plug in strip protectors are, at best, a compromise. At worst, they may cause more damage

> than they prevent. While they may do an acceptable job of handling hot to neutral surges,

> they do a poor job of handling any surge that must be passed to ground. ...

> Then, to add insult to injury, some strip protectors add Telco and/or LAN surge protection

> within the same device, trying to be an all-in-one sale. Remember bonding? When Telco

> or LAN protection is added to a strip protector, if the premise ground, which is not designed

> to handle surges, cannot handle all of the energy, guess where that excess energy seeks

> out the additional grounds? You got it! The Telco and LAN connections now becomes the

> path, with disastrous results to those devices. ...


Most AC wires enter without earthing. Connect a wire short (ie 'less than 10 foot') to single point ground via a 'whole house' protector. If any surge on any wire is not earthed (directly or via a protector), then an entire surge protection system is compromised - no matter how expensive the protector. Surge hunts for earth destructively via appliances. Protection is a discussion about where energy dissipates. Every wire - not just one - must connect to earth.


----------



## oppopioneer

westom can you post photos of a properly connected and wired whole house surge protector at the service panel? I'm putting in a Eaton after Christmas. I can't open pdf photos on my comp for some reason.


----------



## whoaru99

Quote:

Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* 
I am looking into buying one of SurgeX's FlatPak models to protect my plasma tv. Either the SurgeX SA82 or XF2. I'm trying to figure out if they are identical or not, one is the ProAV model and the other is the Residential model, is one better than the other? It will be protecting a Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-151FD 60" inch plasma. Those SurgeX models are rated for 8 amps so I'm not sure if they're powerful enough? I looked up power requirements for an NEC 60 inch plasma, said 440 watt draw typical (around 4amp) but I'm not sure what my plasma specifically draws.


SA82 http://surgex.com/products/sa82FlatPak.html 


or


XF2 http://surgex.com/residential/index.html 


My computer won't allow me to open pdf files so I can't get the specs. 










Any help would be appreciated.
A quick perusal of the specs seems to indicate they're very similar. Whether or not they're exactly the same (other than external appearance), only SurgeX can answer for sure.


As to the power rating, the Kuro power consumption is given by Pioneer as 524 watts, which is a bit less than 50% of the SurgeX device rating so that's OK.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/19633272
> 
> 
> "Once you pass through a transformer, you have again buffered any voltage irregularities from the higher voltage windings."
> 
> 
> Good thing for us you wont be doing any electrical work at any of our venues!
> 
> 
> Whatever comes into a transformer will be increased/ decreased or buffered in a ratio of the output. Step/down transformers do NOT stop surges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you kidding me, typical transformers windings do not pass the higher freqencies at winding ratios. They end up being something less. Have you ever performed a frequency test of a distribution transformer?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I work in convention centers, office buildings, convention sized hotels and with portable equipment for all types of multimedia exhibitions for some of the largest names in the industry. There ARE extensive surge protection systems in these venues as the loads of the building infrastructure as well as whatever group co9ntracts to use the facility present an extremely varied array of loads.
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should contact the hundreds of clients of SurgeX et al and inform them YOU don't agree with there choice of gear. Let us know what they say AFTER they finish laughing.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I work at the largest name hospitals, industrial, commercial and utility facilities. I See the lack of proper protection all of the time.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19633355
> 
> 
> please include the name when quoting someone. It makes it easier to follow along with who's being belittled at any given time. :d


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19634429
> 
> 
> A quick perusal of the specs seems to indicate they're very similar. Whether or not they're exactly the same (other than external appearance), only SurgeX can answer for sure.
> 
> 
> As to the power rating, the Kuro power consumption is given by Pioneer as 524 watts, which is a bit less than 50% of the SurgeX device rating so that's OK.



Thank you, is there any way you can find the power rating of a Comcast HD cable box?


----------



## Gizmologist

"Once you pass through a transformer, you have again buffered any voltage irregularities from the higher voltage windings."
*This was a quote from the previous poster, NOT me.*


Good thing for us you wont be doing any electrical work at any of our venues!


Whatever comes into a transformer will be increased/ decreased or buffered in a ratio of the output. Step/down transformers do NOT stop surges.


"Are you kidding me, typical transformers windings do not pass the higher freqencies at winding ratios. They end up being something less. Have you ever performed a frequency test of a distribution transformer?"

*I suggest you learn the difference between frequency and voltage.*

*From Gizmologist:

"I work in convention centers, office buildings, convention sized hotels and with portable equipment for all types of multimedia exhibitions for some of the largest names in the industry. There ARE extensive surge protection systems in these venues as the loads of the building infrastructure as well as whatever group contracts to use the facility present an extremely varied array of loads.


Perhaps you should contact the hundreds of clients of SurgeX et al and inform them YOU don't agree with there choice of gear. Let us know what they say AFTER they finish laughing."
*[/b]


I work at the largest name hospitals, industrial, commercial and utility facilities. I See the lack of proper protection all of the time.
*

BTW, if transformers stopped surges this thread would be non existent.*


__________________


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist*
> "
> *I suggest you learn the difference between frequency and voltage.*
> Tell me the frequency of the typical surge which is used for testing surge suppressors. Hint, it is the same frequency as studies show to be common at the interface between the utility and service entrance equipment. You need to learn more about transformers. Where is the transformers operating frequency?
> Quote:
> 
> _*BTW, if transformers stopped surges this thread would be non existent.*_
> Apparently, you have a reading problem as well. I never indicated that transformers would stop surges. I indicated that surges are buffered as they try to pass through a transformer.


----------



## Power Factor




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19618915
> 
> 
> We have already had that conversation years ago. We both agreed the Surgex does not address serious surges. And then went on to discuss the serious merits of what a series mode filter does best - noise reduction.
> 
> 
> You can learn the same. Just read its numeric specifications. Only someone who conveniently cannot read English would not do that. So maybe you would would like to point to this surge proection spec that even their engineer did not know about?



Westom,


What is your real name and company? I'm sure either Andy Benton(engineer you mention) or myself will remember you.


No need to be a paper tiger, pick up the phone.


Cheers,

Michael McCook


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19636016
> 
> 
> Thank you, is there any way you can find the power rating of a Comcast HD cable box?



Dunno what box they're using, but my non-DVR Motorola HD box from Charter says 40 watts. Can't imagine there'd be too much difference between cable boxes. The power consumption rating is listed on the bottom of mine.


----------



## Colm

Mr. Cook,


Since you are still around, care to answer a question or two?


One of the advantages touted by SurgeX is that your products do not contaminate the ground. I understand the advantage of this where equipment uses the equipment grounding conductor as a signal ground reference. Does this do anything for me if all my equipment has two blade plugs?


What are the typical factors that drive knowledgeable customers who use a mix of MOV based devices and series mode devices to select series mode for a particular application?


----------



## salmonsc

Consulted this thread because I was interested in opinions about good surge protection but after wading through pages of claim, counter-claim & name calling, I am more confused that when I began!


Is there any consensus as to quality surge protection we without pretensions to electrical engineering expertise should consider? Or how about the most hotly debated methods &/or models?


----------



## Power Factor




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19637908
> 
> 
> Mr. Cook,
> 
> 
> Since you are still around, care to answer a question or two?
> 
> 
> One of the advantages touted by SurgeX is that your products do not contaminate the ground. I understand the advantage of this where equipment uses the equipment grounding conductor as a signal ground reference. Does this do anything for me if all my equipment has two blade plugs?
> 
> 
> What are the typical factors that drive knowledgeable customers who use a mix of MOV based devices and series mode devices to select series mode for a particular application?



I never left the industry Colm ;-) Feel free to contact me directly.


I also suggest this group read the white papers of Jim Brown with Audio Systems Group: surgexinternational.com/pdf/PowerGround.pdf and Bill Whitlock with Jensen Transformers: jensen-transformers.com/apps_wp.html And of course the IEEE document C62.41 .


These professional papers will help everyone in this group understand AC power and grounding as well as the proper methods of audio/video system interfaces. Both Jim Brown and Bill Whitlock are available for direct communication.


Cheers,

Michael


SurgeX- We mitigate a surge at the end of a branch circuit what 3 miles of sky started...


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19637886
> 
> 
> Dunno what box they're using, but my non-DVR Motorola HD box from Charter says 40 watts. Can't imagine there'd be too much difference between cable boxes. The power consumption rating is listed on the bottom of mine.



Ok, I looked at the bottom of my box, I couldn't find where it mentioned watts.


The cable box I'm using is a Comcast HD RNG110. RNG 110 is a Pace cable box I think?


Does it also matter the size of the tv, the bigger the tv the most watts the cable box uses?


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19633869
> 
> 
> westom can you post photos of a properly connected and wired whole house surge protector at the service panel? I'm putting in a Eaton after Christmas.



A picture probably would say little. More important is to know what to look for. Better is to apply this text to what exists inside your breaker box.


First, the protector connected to the (maybe 200 amp) bus via 30 amp circuit breakers. So a protector is best located near those breakers. The protector has 18" leads. As directions suggest, cut those leads shorter.


Good electricians will route AC electric wires down the breaker box side. And them up to a circuit breaker. Plenty of wire left for future modifications. But do not do that with protector leads. Sharp wire bends mean decreased protection – increased impedance. So protector leads are a compromise. Do not cut leads too short. Leave some wire for future changes. Keep the leads shorter and avoid sharp bends. A compromise.


Second, same applies to a green ground lead from protector to the breaker box ground bus. That bus should also connect (via solid 6 AWG bare copper wire) to earth ground. How that ground wire routes to earth is important. For example, if that wire goes up over the foundation and down to an earthing electrode, then that wire is too long, has sharp wire bends, and is better separated from other wires. IOW if that wire can go through the foundation and down to earth, then protection is improved.


Ground wire also must be outside of any metallic conduit or cable tray. Each suggestion reduces wire impedance.


Third, if disconnecting and rerouting that ground wire, be aware that dangerous currents (that should not exist) may be present. Maybe route a new 4 or 6 AWG wire before disconnecting the old. A safety suggestion. Then the old wire can be used for other grounds that might not exist such as hot water heater cold pipe to hot pipe. Or a jumper across the water meter. Or to better safety ground a metal bathtub. Or (and only if your gas company requires it) a ground from the interior gas pipe to breaker box safety ground.


Actual installation of the Eaton (Cutler-Hammer) protector is simple. To better route the wires as Eaton suggests, see the above reasons why wire routing can lower wire impedance. Wire length (and no sharp bends, not splices ,etc) is more important than wire diameter. Of course, anything you might do to increase/enhance the earthing system is useful.


Fourth, an example. This homeowner had a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. And still a surge found earth ground destructively through the building. Unfortunately more conductive soil (a vein of graphite) was on the property far side. Therefore a best path to earth was across the house to that graphite vein. The solution was to encircle the house with a buried earth ground. Then single point ground connected to that graphite without passing through the house.


Protectors are simple science. The art (earth ground) provides protection. An example of that art. Why we so often do not learn of our mistakes until after the first surge. And why upgrading single point earth ground whenever practical is important.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19638554
> 
> 
> Ok, I looked at the bottom of my box, I couldn't find where it mentioned watts.



Any appliance with a UL listing will have that label somewhere. It may be in Volt-Amps (VA) or even in amps. But the label will exist.


Meanwhile, does the box get hotter than a 100 watt light bulb? Probably not. That box will consume maybe 40 watts. Maybe more. But those numbers are all well below 400 watts.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *salmonsc* /forum/post/19638257
> 
> 
> Consulted this thread because I was interested in opinions about good surge protection but after wading through pages of claim, counter-claim & name calling,



Saddam had WMDs. You knew that because a majority said how to think. Or you listened to those who provided the reasons why and numbers. Then you were the minority who knew the truth.


Same applies here. Learn from history. Learn from posts that include "electrical engineering expertise" - the always required numbers and quotes from responsible professionals. If you want an answer without reasons why, then go find the most expensive protector you can find. Not learning 'why' means one deserves to be scammed.


Or view manufacturer specifications. That and 49 other reasons. Why do appliances adjacent protectors not claim protection from each type of surge? One simple reason. No protector claims such protection. None. Not one. Nada. An effective protector is - and again the source alone says which one to believe - according to the NIST:

> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by

> diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can

> be

> useless if grounding is not done properly.


Could the NIST (responsible professionals in a non-profit organization) make it simpler? How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) It has no dedicated wire for that always short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point ground. 2) Manufacturer will not discuss the only items that provides protection - single point earth ground.


Appreciate why a majority make scams so easy by not also demanding the reasons why - and numbers.


How many of 50 reasons were ignored? Manufacturer 'forgets' to claim protection where they cannot lie - the specs. NIST says quite bluntly what all protectors must do. How do hundreds of thousands of joules magically disappear without a short connection to earth? None of this is complicated. Either grasp recommendations that come with the *always required* reasons why. Or be scammed because a majority are told by big brother how to think.


Do you remember Apple's early 1980s Super Bowl commerical? They were defining what you are asking. Did you believe what you were ordered to believe? Or did you learn from sources that asked damning questions - such as where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? The *always required* reasons why. Only you choose to have an answer (which means reasons why) or to remain naive.


Simply learn what Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752. Again, the reasons why. More than enough science to understand what effective protectors must do. Stop thinking any protector is protection. A lightning rod is also not protection for the same reason. Protectors (and lightning rods) either connect to protection. Or are ineffective.


----------



## oppopioneer

I looked at the bottom of my box, I couldn't find "watts" but this was posted:


USB: +5V DC ----- 500mA MAX.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19638810
> 
> 
> USB: +5V DC ----- 500mA MAX.



Volts times current is watts. 5 times 0.5 is 2.5 watts.


However that would only be power through a USB port. Your cable box has an AC power cord? Then that label must be somewhere near to that AC power cord. And would also be in the operator's manual (or CD-rom).


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19638554
> 
> 
> Ok, I looked at the bottom of my box, I couldn't find where it mentioned watts.
> 
> 
> The cable box I'm using is a Comcast HD RNG110. RNG 110 is a Pace cable box I think?
> 
> 
> Does it also matter the size of the tv, the bigger the tv the most watts the cable box uses?



No, the cable box will use what it uses regardless of the TV size. The numbers were in pretty small print on mine, or as someone suggested maybe yours is on the back.


Even if the power was twice what mine listed (which I really doubt), you're still only about 60% of the SurgeX's rated capacity including the cable box and TV.


----------



## Gizmologist

In your never ending diatribe you stated that copper grround wires need to be be bareand not inside any conduit. Try running bare copper ground lines from a panel to any type of ground, Ufer, pipe or rod here in SoCal and watch how fast you get a red tag. ALL soft copper grounds MUST be in steel jacket. (greenfield )


----------



## oppopioneer

Ok, on the back of my cable box is says:


DC IN +5V ---- 4.0A MAX


----------



## whoaru99

20 watts then. Still makes it right around 50% of the SurgeX rating, including the TV.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19641694
> 
> 
> 20 watts then. Still makes it right around 50% of the SurgeX rating, including the TV.



wow! that's it? Did I give you the right section of numbers?


Also, I found cnet.com's power ratings for the Pio Kuro 151FD:


Power consumption operational - 355.6

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-33002557.html


----------



## whoaru99

Yeah, I saw that CNET power rating. The number I gave previously was out of the Pioneer Owner's Manual for the TV.


I guess since there are two conflicting numbers just average them. Should be plenty close enough and either way there is plenty of reserve capacity in the surge unit considering it's rated at 10 amps (1200 watts) at 120V.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19642432
> 
> 
> I guess since there are two conflicting numbers just average them. Should be plenty close enough and either way there is plenty of reserve capacity in the surge unit considering it's rated at 10 amps (1200 watts) at 120V.



I thought the SurgeX XF2 is rated 8 amps at 120 volts and can handle loads totaling 960 watts at 120 volts ?










Someone just sent me a PM about my cable box: EnergyStar rates this box as 12.36W on "Power On" mode.


----------



## whoaru99

Yeah, you're right...8A. Don't know where I came up with 10A...must have confused the number with the 10W standby consumption, 10 year product warranty, or 10 year equipment warranty.


Either way, you're still well within the rating.


----------



## salmonsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19638754
> 
> 
> Saddam had WMDs. You knew that because a majority said how to think. Or you listened to those who provided the reasons why and numbers. Then you were the minority who knew the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simply learn what Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752. Again, the reasons why. More than enough science to understand what effective protectors must do. Stop thinking any protector is protection. A lightning rod is also not protection for the same reason. Protectors (and lightning rods) either connect to protection. Or are ineffective.



Wow. What a complete tosser!


----------



## Neurorad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *salmonsc* /forum/post/19643784
> 
> 
> Wow. What a complete tosser!



Wow. Another sheep!


----------



## salmonsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19644358
> 
> 
> Wow. Another sheep!



Really? I think not. Just someone with a fully functioning BS detector.


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *salmonsc* /forum/post/19644402
> 
> 
> Really? I think not. Just someone with a fully functioning BS detector.



So...what do you have to add, refute, or dispute?


----------



## G-Rex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19633366
> 
> 
> G Rex can you please post a link to that audiogon section? Sounds interesting.




Never saved it. I will see if I can dig it up.


----------



## oppopioneer

If you guys dont mind, I'd like all of your opinions and experiences between Brickwall versus SurgeX surge eliminators?


They both don't use mov's which is good and which is best for HT? Talking to the Brickwall service rep on the phone he said both the Brickwall and SurgeX use the same 'Series Mode' technology but the SurgeX has some additional filtering features.


The units from Brickwall I like are the:

http://brickwall.thomasnet.com/item/...|1001|3001003x 


and

http://brickwall.thomasnet.com/item/...|1001|3001003x 


versus the SurgeX SX1115RT:

http://surgex.com/products/sx1115rt.html


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *salmonsc* /forum/post/19644402
> 
> 
> Really? I think not. Just someone with a fully functioning BS detector.



So you feel. Therefore you know? Same reason why so many Americans sent so many good soldiers to an unnecessary death. When honest people were saying Saddam's WMDs were only speculation, then your BS detector was also lying to you. At what point do you learn from your mistakes? Those using BS detectors also believe lies about contaminated grounds and about series mode filters that make surges magically disappear.


I have a friend who loves people using BS detectors. It made selling scams so profitable. His stories were always amusing.


Essential for best protection per dollar are MOV based protectors connected to the only thing that does surge protection - single point earth ground. Only those educated by their BS detectors would, instead, believe retail propaganda and other lies - such as Saddam's WMDs. One is supposed to learn from history so as to not be deceived by their BS detector. Knowledge from emotions (ie a BS detector) makes scams so profitable.


An honest person first learns facts and numbers. Ie. specifications from the manufacturer's datasheets.


----------



## Speedskater

Don't know anything about the Brickwall equipment, but New Frontier Electronics (the SurgeX people) has a good reputation. Heck, Jim Brown wrote a paper for them.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19649050
> 
> 
> So you feel. Therefore you know? Same reason why so many Americans sent so many good soldiers to an unnecessary death. When honest people were saying Saddam's WMDs were only speculation, then your BS detector was also lying to you. At what point do you learn from your mistakes? Those using BS detectors also believe lies about contaminated grounds and about series mode filters that make surges magically disappear.



You keep bringing up Saddam and wmd's to try to prove a point. I edited out my post to leave the politics out, you do the same please.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19649050
> 
> 
> An honest person first learns facts and numbers. Ie. specifications from the manufacturer's datasheets.



westom, you were given time and time again to contact Michael McCook at SurgeX and he would be more than happy to give you the numbers and data sheets.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Power Factor* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Westom,
> 
> 
> What is your real name and company? I'm sure either Andy Benton(engineer you mention) or myself will remember you.
> 
> 
> No need to be a paper tiger, pick up the phone.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Michael McCook





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Power Factor* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I also suggest this group read the white papers of Jim Brown with Audio Systems Group: surgexinternational.com/pdf/PowerGround.pdf and Bill Whitlock with Jensen Transformers: jensen-transformers.com/apps_wp.html And of course the IEEE document C62.41 .
> 
> 
> These professional papers will help everyone in this group understand AC power and grounding as well as the proper methods of audio/video system interfaces. Both Jim Brown and Bill Whitlock are available for direct communication.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> SurgeX- We mitigate a surge at the end of a branch circuit what 3 miles of sky started...



Sorry for turning this into a political back and forth, but westom kept bringing a war and wmd's into a discussion about electricity.


----------



## salmonsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19645146
> 
> 
> So...what do you have to add, refute, or dispute?



Nada. I've seen enough. Quite happy to leave you folk to yourselves!


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19649484
> 
> 
> You keep bringing up Saddam and wmd's to try to prove a point.



The point was obvious. So many (if not a majority) will only believe what they are first told. Never ask for facts and numbers. And then get nasty when reality exposes their myth. Anyone could have learned this even from history - ie Saddam's WMDs or from a 'light at the end of the tunnel' during Nam.


Easy to identify those most easily deceived. They think in terms of liberals and conservatives. Therefore are routinely manipulated; told how to think. The intelligent people are moderates. With contempt for political extremists who, and again, are told how to think. Those easy deceived will not provide technical spec numbers - well published and in writing. The enemies of this nation are people who believe what they are told to believe. Who never think like a patriot. Never even ask damning questions. Who even forget principles taught in junior high science. Why are protection claims not even found in the manufacturer spec sheet? How does that magic box stop what three miles of sky could not. How does that magic box absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? Oh. It only claim noise protection.


Hard facts, fundamental science principles, citations, and the always required numbers. Where are your Surgex numbers?


> Quote:
> And what's the name of this "friend" so we can contact him?



Last time I talked to him, he was headed for jail. He made too much money telling the naive what to think. So many people only believe what they are told rather than ask damning questions - demand the always required facts and numbers.


So where are those Surgex specs you must have before ever recommending the Surgex? Which is what moderates do to not be a dumb and easily manipulated liberal or conservative.


If your Surgex does as claimed, then we never waste time on third party hearsay. You post manufacturer spec numbers that claim that protection. And you cannot. Surgex protects from surges that typically do no damage. Instead, hearsay (not even in writing) is promoted as fact.


A wire inside a Surgex also bypasses the filter. Why do I repeat this and you ignore it? That wire is also how surges can find earth destructively via 'Surgex protected' appliances.


Nothing stops a destructive surge. Nothing. Surgex claims to stop and absorb surges.


Others are easily deceived as to buy a power strip protector for $hundreds. Since it is called a 'line conditioner', then many *know* it must do more? Another example of people who did not learn from history, Saddam's mythical WMDs, or by asking damning questions.


Surgex, et al are recommended series mode filters to eliminate noise problems. When manipulating the naive, then an MOV lie or ground contamination myth are invented. MOVs are some of the best protectors. But only when a protector is properly designed with the always - as in there is no exception - always required connection to earth. Ground contamination? Destructive surges exist because it connects to earth. If the surge exists, then ground is always 'contaminated'.


The Surgex protection is only promoted in sales brochures and hearsay. Not in anything that an engineer (or moderate) always needs to have a fact.


Learn from Saddam's WMDs. Extremists, ordered to believe, knew Saddam had WMDs. Those using basic concepts even taught in junior high science did not fall for that myth. Informed thinkers (with contempt for all liberal and conservative propaganda) need supporting facts and numbers - the reasons why - before knowing anything. If Surgex does effective protection, then you are quoting manufacturer spec numbers that say so. No numbers posted because, well, that is also why so many so hated humanity as to believe Saddam had WMDs. Where are those Surgex spec numbers? Not provided when proof is found in hearsay (talk to so-and-so or believe a wacko politician - same thing).


----------



## oppopioneer

This was posted to me in PM by a qualified electrician, his name will be kept hidden so I'm not plagiarizing.




> "Westom argues about surge protection in every part of the forum and I have seen his posts many times before. He is correct in that MOVs are a valid form of protection if used at the service entrance of a home or building where the diverted surge energy goes straight to earth ground. And I agree that this should be done in every home/ building if possible.
> 
> 
> A whole house surge protection unit will help reduce all surges coming into the home from the power lines. But what happens if the surge comes from in the home? Like when a motor turns off or on and lights dim/ brighten. This is where individual surge protectors can help or if there is no whole house protection. Typically surges from within the home aren't as damaging as the ones coming from the power lines but sometimes can still cause problems.
> 
> 
> Power strip surge protectors that use MOVs divert the surge energy to the ground wire and if the ground wire goes directly to the service panel it can be effective protection, if the wire is not too long and has too much resistance. The problem with this is not all ground wires go directly to the service panel. Often on a circuit there are many outlets and this diverted surge energy can enter other outlets on the circuit and travel up to equipment through their ground wire. Most equipment's transformers will lessen the surge so it is not harmful but that is not always true depending on the circuit and size of the surge.
> 
> 
> The other problem with diverting a surge to ground is low voltage lines like cable, phone, sat, etc. might be affected. In the ideal world all these low voltage lines would be grounded at the service entrance with the electrical ground. All the grounds would be "bonded". Of course this isn't the ideal world and here in New England houses have had electricity long before telephone, internet, TV, etc. existed. When these lines were added into homes these low voltage providers often connect their low voltage lines to the most convenient ground they can find. Which may be the ground from any circuit, a separate earth ground not bonded to the electrical earth ground, water pipes, etc.
> 
> 
> So now a diverted surge could potentially go directly the the ground of a low voltage line. When this happens instead of a transformer it might have to go through it goes directly to circuitry. Most circuitry is 3-12V so it doesn't take much of a surge to damage the circuitry.
> 
> 
> This is the reason UL recommends not using a surge protector that diverts to ground with interconnected equipment such as computers, AV equipment, etc. Because if diverted energy gets through to a circuit whether from the ground on the outlet or a low voltage ground it is likely to do damage. The UL rating system uses the term contaminates ground as part of their rating system.
> 
> 
> So what does SurgeX do? It holds the energy briefly and slowly releases it on the neutral wire. That way it never touches the ground wire and whatever it diverts is done slowly so the voltage never gets too high to be damaging. I don't know exact
> 
> numbers it uses but here is an example. Let's say we have 1000 volts of diverted energy, with an MOV this would be sent to the ground wire in 1 millisecond. With a Series mode it is sent to the neutral wire of 100 volts over 10 milliseconds.
> 
> 
> One disadvantage to MOVs is that they deteriorate over time where there reaction time is slower and not as much energy can be diverted. Their Joule rating is the maximum energy they can divert over the life of the product, so whether it comes from one big surge or many small ones once its energy is used up they are no longer effective. So they should be replaced periodically. With a whole house protector I'd say once every 10 years is fine unless you know it took some big hits or are in an exceptionally prone area to surges like Florida which is probably lightning capitol of the country.
> 
> 
> These specs are given by the manufacturer of the MOVs and are well known. Don't look for the specs from Panamax, monster, or any other manufacturer of consumer equipment. They'll just give yo the Joule rating. You have to look at who made the part because I don't think Panamax, Tripplite, monster or any other consumer manufacturer of surge protectors makes their own parts.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I try to avoid any conflicts on the forum. I'm happe to educate when I can but sometimes the conflicts are just not worth the time It is tough for members to find out 'who is who' and which party has the more correct information. for instance I may work as an installer now. I'm one of the owners of our company and I have an engineering degree in laser engineering. so I understand a little bit about power but my degree isn't in electrical engineering but basic power requirements are really basic and nothing here is beyond the basics."[End quote]


----------



## G-Rex

Interesting read. I'm fairly certain though that the SurgeX units per their specs don't divert the surge to ground or neutral.


----------



## Neurorad

Huh.


I think I'm on the same planet as Westom.


My big concern is external surges.


I'm leaning toward the Easton residential surge 'diverter'.


Thanks for posting that Oppopioneer.


----------



## oppopioneer

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Neurorad* 
Huh.


I think I'm on the same planet as Westom.


My big concern is external surges.


I'm leaning toward the Easton residential surge 'diverter'.


Thanks for posting that Oppopioneer.
It's even better to do both so you get double protection, put in a protector at the service entrance and a SurgeX downstream to your equipment.


----------



## oppopioneer

Quote:

Originally Posted by *G-Rex* 
Interesting read. I'm fairly certain though that the SurgeX units per their specs don't divert the surge to ground or neutral.
That's correct, SurgeX doesn't use mov's and their products don't divert energy to ground or neutral.


----------



## Colm

Quote:

Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* 
This was posted to me in PM by a qualified electrician, his name will be kept hidden so I'm not plagiarizing.
Finally a decent post...


FWIW if your sensitive equipment is not on the same branch circuit as an offending device, like a motor, and your have a whole-house surge protective device, your sensitive equipment has the same protection as if the surge originated outside the house. In my case, I have a whole-house device at the service entrance, and all my AV gear is on a separate circuit.


----------



## Colm

Quote:

Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* 
...SurgeX doesn't use mov's and their products don't divert energy to ground or neutral.
I am not sure that quite accurate. As I understand it, the products store the energy from the surge and slowly release it to the neutral in a way that does not result in a significant perturbation of the neutral. But the key point is true, they don't contaminate the ground.


----------



## Neurorad

Quote:

Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* 
It's even better to do both so you get double protection, put in a protector at the service entrance and a SurgeX downstream to your equipment.
Stage 1 and Stage 2, agreed.


----------



## Colm

Quote:

Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* 
It's even better to do both so you get double protection, put in a protector at the service entrance and a SurgeX downstream to your equipment.
But for me the question is: with a good whole-house device, and a dedicated circuit for my AV gear, do I need the extra protection given the inherent ability of the gear to withstand surges to some degree?


----------



## oppopioneer

Colm I don't work for SurgeX or have their data, you'll have to contact the expert Michael McCook who posted his phone number who can give you all the information you need because there is a lot I am ignorant on what a downstream surge eliminator can do and benefit from. Often times on here people want to bait amateurs into these types of questions and when the amateur can't respond back then the person asking the question says the product is b.s..



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Power Factor* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I also suggest this group read the white papers of Jim Brown with Audio Systems Group: surgexinternational.com/pdf/PowerGround.pdf and Bill Whitlock with Jensen Transformers: jensen-transformers.com/apps_wp.html And of course the IEEE document C62.41 .
> 
> 
> These professional papers will help everyone in this group understand AC power and grounding as well as the proper methods of audio/video system interfaces. Both Jim Brown and Bill Whitlock are available for direct communication.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> SurgeX- We mitigate a surge at the end of a branch circuit what 3 miles of sky started...


----------



## Power Factor

Yes.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19650435
> 
> 
> This was posted to me in PM by a qualified electrician, his name will be kept hidden so I'm not plagiarizing.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> "Westom argues about surge protection in every part of the forum and I have seen his posts many times before. He is correct in that MOVs are a valid form of protection if used at the service entrance of a home or building where the diverted surge energy goes straight to earth ground. And I agree that this should be done in every home/ building if possible. ...
Click to expand...


First UL only tests for one thing. Does that unit harm humans? Any UL device can completely fail. And that is completely acceptable to UL as long as the failure does not threaten human life.


Second, dimming is low voltage. A 120 volt protector is inert - does nothing - until that voltage well exceeds 300 volts. That is not dimming or brightening lights; tens of volts changes. And that protector is only for events that are microseconds. Microsecond events never cause light intensity variation. No relationship exists between what a protector does and changing light intensity.


Third, if that surge is inside on any wire, either a plug-in protector must connect it back to the same earth ground that the surge ignored when entering. Or what really happens. That protector simply gives the surge even more paths to find earth destructively via appliances. Why do I also know those so many IEEE papers and other sources are correct? Because that is also what we discovered too many times by tracing the surge current through buildings and equipment. In every case, the surge entered because a single point earth ground sometimes met code and was always defective for surge protection.


Will other low voltage lines be affected? Of course. Every incoming wire - the low voltage telephone, cable, and satellite dish - also must make a short connection to single point ground. And why any surge permitted inside the building will simply transfer onto those wires. More destructive paths to earth. Once that surge is permitted inside a building, then every wire (and air ducts, water pipes, etc) all become potential conductors or a destructive surge.


Code requires every single low voltage wire inside every cable to make that earthing connection. If ethernet enters the building, that means eight 'whole house' projectors (in one package). Surge protection means that earth connection must also exceed code requirements.


Fourth, too many electrician compromise protection by making the installation look neat. Nylon ty wrap all wires together to look good and to induce surges on those other wires. Clean sharp wire bends which only compromise protection. Reasons why that is bad - subverts the connection to earth - is based in electrical concepts not taught to electricians. Homeowner should inspect his surge protection system - the earthing - to confirm an electrician (telco installer, etc) has not made a serious mistake.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19650435
> 
> 
> This was posted to me in PM by a qualified electrician, his name will be kept hidden so I'm not plagiarizing.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ... "One disadvantage to MOVs is that they deteriorate over time where there reaction time is slower and not as much energy can be diverted. Their Joule rating is the maximum energy they can divert over the life of the product,
Click to expand...


Common myths promoted by lies in places such as HowStuffWorks. First, MOVs do deteriorate. That is a fact provided without numbers. To have reality means including numbers.


To fail catastrophically, power strip protectors grossly undersize their joules. Then when a failure occurs (when the appliance is left to defend itself from the surge), the naive consumer recommends that scam. One reason why Monster (a company famous for its scams) is also selling plug-in protectors.


All appliances contain superior protection. A surge too tiny to overwhelm the appliance, also easily destroys the protector. A massive sales increase result when people use only observation to know something.


Catastrophic failure (including failures indicated by its light) is completely unacceptable - as even made bluntly obvious in MOV datasheets. Such failures exceed "Absolute Maximum Parameters". Completely unacceptable.


No protector must fail catastrophically. Normal failure mode for a properly designed MOV protector is ‘degradation’. Its voltage (Vb) changes by 10%. A normal failure mode cannot and is never reported by its indicator light. Indicated failure implies a protector was probably useless when bought. A profit center.


How much is required to degrade a protector? One MOV datasheet describes testing:

> The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied

> 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.


But again – numbers. An example of what a protector must do when properly sized. More reasons why a homeowner spends less money for a properly sized ‘whole house’ protector.


Or include numbers from the IEEE Green Book entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':

> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke

> per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...

Ballpark numbers for discussing the life expectancy of effective protectors. MOVs fail mostly because that protector was a profit center; not surge protection. Spend $7 in a grocery store to have a similar plug-in protector circuit (and similar specs) so often hyped by Monster for $100.


MOVs fail quickly when that gets the naive to recommend an obscenely profitable protector. MOVs failure mostly promoted when one forgets that numbers must always be included in any statement or recommendation. Recommendations without numbers is why junk science exists.


Second, he is right about MOVs being so effective when connected short to earth. But did not learn other critically important facts and numbers.


Why do Panamax, Monster, Belkin, etc provide a joules number. They do not claim protection from destructive surges. Would rather not provide a number that says inferior protection. That number, found in the datasheets from all MOV protector manufacturers, is provided only because UL requires it. To do human safety UL testing, a manufacturer must declare up front to UL what is inside. Meanwhile, those protectors make no other protection claims.


How do hundreds of joules (near zero) in those power strip protectors absorb surges that a hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. Tripplite et al do not claim effective protection. Those joules numbers say so. UL required number says it is near zero surge protection. A power strip manufacturer will not say anything more. Otherwise you might learn it is an ineffective protector; only a profit center.


Two posts that provide many ‘ignored’ numbers for MOV protectors. Third will discuss how a Surgex works.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19650435
> 
> 
> This was posted to me in PM by a qualified electrician, his name will be kept hidden so I'm not plagiarizing.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> "So what does SurgeX do? It holds the energy briefly and slowly releases it on the neutral wire. That way it never touches the ground wire and whatever it diverts is done slowly so the voltage never gets too high to be damaging. I don't know exact numbers it uses but...
Click to expand...


Well let's add numbers and basic electrical concepts.


First, too many think electricity flows into a protector like water into a sink. Nonsense. Electricity never worked that way. If 100 amps is flowing into a Surgex, then same 100 amps is also flowing simultaneously out and into a connected appliance. Otherwise no electricity - no surge - exists. It is called electricity. Same current flowing from a cloud must also be flowing simultaneously into earth. Nothing stops or absorbs that current. Same current into a Surgex is also outing into the adjacent appliance.


If 20,000 amps would flow through a (electrically conductive) wooden church steeple. Then a same 20,000 amps also flows to earth via a lightning rod and ground wire. What is different? Because wood is less conductive, then voltage increases. More energy dissipates destructively in that church. Because a wire to a lightning rod is more conductive, then near zero voltage means near zero energy. No

damage.


Same applies to a Surgex. Same destructive surge flowing through the appliance is what is flowing into the Surgex. Voltage increases as necessary so that current will still flow.


Let's say a Surgex voltage increases 800 volts during a surge. Same current means a surge voltage is maybe 5000 volts into the appliance. And 5,800 volts into the Surgex. Where is protection?


Second, electricians understand wire resistance'. But surge protection means one must learn about wire impedance'. A concept taught to first year engineering students is not taught to electricians. A 50 foot Romex cable from receptacle to breaker box is well less than 0.2 ohms resistance. And may be 120 ohm impedance to a surge. What happens to a Surgex if a trivial 100 amp surge is flowing down that neutral or safety ground wire? 100 amps times 120 ohms means 12,000 volts. The Surgex and appliance will be at something less than 12,000 volts. Where is the protection? Surgex at 12,000 volts. Appliance at 11.200 volts.


Same is why a protector must be so short (ie less than 10 feet') to earth ground. Every foot longer means higher impedance - less protection.


Why do telcos want protectors very close to earth. And up to 50 meters (150 feet) separated from electronics? Wire impedance - that separation - increases protection.


Third, where does the Surgex discharge that energy once the surge ends? The best path to earth is still through that nearby appliance. Series mode filter simply discharges current through the most conductive path to earth - that already compromised and now more conductive appliance.


----------



## oppopioneer

westom, you're missing the point, I believe what you are doing is taking some things out of context and interpreting them to your own spin and lack of knowledge of the inner workings of SurgeX products. Michael McCook has offered many chances to call him and he will tell you and probably send you info on their numbers, data sheets and how they achieved it.


No one on here and no one at SurgeX that I have talked to has ever said their products are bullet proof and will stop a direct lightning strike, nothing really on this earth can protect your electronics against a powerful enough direct multiple lightning strikes. SurgeX decreases the odds of having your equipment damaged, so does a whote house surge protector. SurgeX employees even admit that it's better to protect digital coaxial cables right where the copper wire enters the house. The whole point is that a Series Mode protection is superior downstream at the wall outlet than a mov based device is.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19656322
> 
> 
> No one on here and no one at SurgeX that I have talked to has ever said their products are bullet proof and will stop a direct lightning strike, nothing really on this earth can protect your electronics against a powerful enough direct multiple lightning strikes.



Protection from direct lightning strikes was routine decades ago. But you still know nothing can protect electronics? Do you also cure cancer by praying? It is not insult or mockery. A serious question about how you know when somehow electricity will flow into a Surgex like water into a sink? Please learn how electricity works.


Electronics atop the Empire State Building suffer 23 direct lightning strikes annually - without damage. Electronics atop the WTC suffered 40. Standard knowledge that somehow you know is wrong?


A direct lightning strike is typically 20,000 amps. One 'whole house' protector properly earthed so that 50,000 amps connects harmlessly to earth. How many amps does that Surgex absorb? That would be asking for manufacturer spec numbers that you cannot provide.


Let's see. Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does the Surgex absorb? This question guarantees you will not provide those numeric specs. Otherwise an expensive Surgex is not effective protection. Damning numbers you will again ignore.


Or learn from US government researchers who do this stuff using science without hearsay. It has only been posted what - eight times? When you cannot dispute hard facts, you ignore them. And so reality is reposted:

> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting

> the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if

> grounding is not done properly.


Where is its required, short wire to single point earth ground? Does not exist. From professionals who actually make direct lightning strikes harmless: "The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly." No wonder that Surgex has no numbers for surge protection. At what point does the word "useless" become obvious?


Where is that manufacturer spec that claim protection? Never provided. It is a superb noise filter (unlike so many Furman products). And is not effective surge protection. Nor claims to be. So manufacturer spec numbers that claim protection? Cannot and will not be provided. Obviously.


No earth ground means no effective protection. Routine is protection from direct lightning strikes as demonstrated by telephone COs in every town. They also do not waste money on anything that miraculously stops or absorbs surges. Instead their solutions have numeric specs and are earthed. Why? Because routine is to have direct lightning strikes without damage ... which must be denied if promoting Surgex for surge protection.


----------



## Gizmologist

Can you please state here and now if you really believe it, that NONE of the engineers at SurgeX and the engineers with companies who quite successfully rely on SurgeX and others have absolutely no concept of what they are doing?


That IS what you are saying. Which is the more logical situation, that YOU may not understand the actual working as much as you THINK you do or that a few thousand engineers in all fields of electronics-based endeavors are all 100% wrong?


If you feel YOU have the correct information and EVERYONE of these engineers is wrong, then you must also believe that SurgeX etal are making 100% false claims and for the safety of the world YOU have a moral responsibility to stand up and call them liars and do everything in your power to correct the situation.


Why not start manufacturing your OWN equipment?


BTW if you believe that an after market whole house surge protector can handle 50,000 amp lightning hit you are sadly mistaken. The interrupting max on home owner and even most industrial breakers is 10,000A and is so marked on the device and panel.


A 50,000 amp strike would pop the typical ground wire like a fuse.


Perhaps you should take a look at a substation lightning diversion system.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/19657527
> 
> 
> BTW if you believe that an after market whole house surge protector can handle 50,000 amp lightning hit you are sadly mistaken. The interrupting max on home owner and even most industrial breakers is 10,000A and is so marked on the device and panel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the device has the NRTL rating, then it can safely handle the surge as rated. It is as simple as that.
> 
> 
> Most homowner panels are rated for 10kA, but this rating is for a duration which is much longer than the typical surge. And most industrial breakers rated for 480V begin at the 12kA range and continue up to 300kA with the majority of them in the 18-65kA range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> A 50,000 amp strike would pop the typical ground wire like a fuse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the ground wire would be fine. Cabling and bus can handle a great deal of current for short periods of time.
Click to expand...


.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/19657527
> 
> 
> BTW if you believe that an after market whole house surge protector can handle 50,000 amp lightning hit you are sadly mistaken. The interrupting max on home owner and even most industrial breakers is 10,000A and is so marked on the device and panel.



AV Doogle demonstrates what an informed or educated person does before posting. Or read numbers from any Standards book. For example, what is a maximum lightning strike carried by an 18 AWG (lamp cord) wire? Something less than 60,000 amps. Wire on most any 50,000 amps 'whole house' protector from responsible companies such as Intermatic, General Electric, Cutler-Hammer, etc is about four times thicker. Facts are what an honest person learns before accusing.


How difficult is this thing called learning? Gizmologist could simply walk into any Lowes or Home Depot. Read spec numbers on a 50,000 amp Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector. View diameter of its wires. But that means learning numbers before posting denials, mockery, and disparagment.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19660626
> 
> 
> Something less than 60,000 amps. Wire on most any 50,000 amps 'whole house' protector from responsible companies such as Intermatic, General Electric, Cutler-Hammer, etc is about four times thicker. Facts are what an honest person learns before accusing.
> 
> 
> How difficult is this thing called learning? Gizmologist could simply walk into any Lowes or Home Depot. Read spec numbers on a 50,000 amp Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector. View diameter of its wires. But that means learning numbers before posting denials, mockery, and disparagment.



westom, which specific Cutler Hammer model do you recommend? Can you post a link to the specific model please so I can read the specs and see the installation guide for my setup?


----------



## Power Factor




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19660626
> 
> 
> AV Doogle demonstrates what an informed or educated person does before posting. Or read numbers from any Standards book. For example, what is a maximum lightning strike carried by an 18 AWG (lamp cord) wire? Something less than 60,000 amps. Wire on most any 50,000 amps 'whole house' protector from responsible companies such as Intermatic, General Electric, Cutler-Hammer, etc is about four times thicker. Facts are what an honest person learns before accusing.
> 
> 
> How difficult is this thing called learning? Gizmologist could simply walk into any Lowes or Home Depot. Read spec numbers on a 50,000 amp Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector. View diameter of its wires. But that means learning numbers before posting denials, mockery, and disparagment.



westom,


...and your real name is? Your electrical background and company you work for?


Michael McCook

SurgeX International

Office: (+1)610-847-4956

Direct: (+1)267-251-6119

Fax: (+1)610-847-4955
[email protected] 

Skype: michael.mccook
www.SurgeXInternational.com


----------



## oppopioneer

westom, according to Eaton, 80% of transients and surge generated damages are generated inside the facility.

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/publ...ct_111979.mpeg


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19661720
> 
> 
> westom, which specific Cutler Hammer model do you recommend?



I gave up long ago trying to maintain hyperlinks. These companies have a bad habit of constantly changing those addresses for reasons that only and IP person could justify.


Walk into any Lowes. Ask for their 'whole house' protector. Then view what is important. First it must have an always a dedicated wire to make a short (low impedance) connection to earth. Second, it must be rated for 50,000 amps or higher. The so many companies that make these include (a short list) General Electric, Siemens, ABB, Clipsal, Intermatic, Leviton, Polyphaser, Keison, Transtector, Delta, as well as Cutler-Hammer (Eaton).


Surges through protectors are defined by current. A protector must conduct at least 50,000 amps. If that current number is higher (better), then a protector will absorb even less energy - an even longer life expectancy.


----------



## oppopioneer

westom, would any of the EATON Innovative Technology PTE/PTX Protector Series be a good whole house surge protector?


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19661860
> 
> 
> westom, according to Eaton, 80% of transients and surge generated damages are generated inside the facility.



The video does what I believe any company should do in retail propaganda. Hype myths that are subjective. Have no numbers. Then those educated in things useless will enrich them.


So let's put some numbers to those claims. Most all those transients are noise. So trivial that some of the most sensitive appliances - bathroom and kitchen GFCIs, dimmer switches, etc) are not damaged. Most transients are maybe ten volts. Noise heard in lesser quality stereo and video equipment.


If anything inside a house is creating destructive surges, then what suffers most and is damaged first? First, an appliance that creates a destructive transient is closest to and is the first thing damaged. Second, a protector must be installed on that appliance. Not on other appliances that might suffer. Third, any appliance that is creating such transients (ie refrigerator, copy machine, etc) will destroy or degrade a plug-in protector quickly. Those transients will quickly exceed 10,000. So buy new protectors monthly or quarterly. Fourth, any appliance that creates destructive transients should be binned quickly as an obviously defective appliance.


And fifth, all appliances contain serious surge protection. An industry design standard 40 years ago required electronics to withstand up to 600 volts without damage. Newer standards are at thousands of volts - even for low voltage signal wires. For example, what is the rating for Ethernet? About 2000 volts.


How often are you replacing dimmer switches and digital clocks every week? Why do appliances, constantly outputting these surges, not have you replacing smoke detectors daily? Because those transients are only noise. Well below destructive levels.


So what are destructive voltages? These typically occur once every seven years. A numbers that can vary even within the same town. Further variance is defined by conditions such as local geology. Perform a neighborhood survey to better learn what others have suffered over the past ten years. Or simply install what all home should have anyway to make typically destructive surges (and internal generated surges) irrelevant. One 'whole house' protector.


Well Eaton cited the Emerald book. And then we add numbers they forgot to include. From the Green Book entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':

> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path which

> will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage. Even this means is not

> positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...

> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one

> stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...


An earthed protector does only 99.5% of the protection. At a cost of about $1 per protected appliance. Then we spend tens or 100 times more money per appliance for plug-in protectors to do what - another 0.2% protection? Well yes, I say more protectors are better since I am the 1% of America who owned most of the money. But the common man does not spend money like it was tap water. An informed consumer has more than sufficient protection with one 'whole house' protector (properly earthed) to make 99.5% of transients irrelevant.


That Eaton video also noted what interior protectors are for. Voltages defined by the 'whole house' protector's "let-through voltage". What is the number for that voltage? 400 volts. Well below the 600 volt limit defined by appliances.


What would that plug-in protector do? See its let-through voltage number. 400 volts lowered to 330 volts (only if those 400 volts is one type of surge). Where is the massive ternary protection? Voltage remains almost as high for something that costs how many tens of times more money?


Why do reliable facilities want their protectors up to 50 meters distant from the protector? Those 400 volts are so much lower when separation increases between protector and appliance. What is a non-destructive voltage is further decreased by a protector that is distant from electronics. Again, wire impedance.


In my travels, I did find one appliance that could actually create a serious surge. A car battery charger from the 1960s. If it was turned off when connected to a battery, when the battery was badly discharged, and if doing a fast charge, then it would trip some circuits I built and install to monitor for destructive surges. Over decades, I found only one appliance that could generate anything more than noise.


Yes, all appliances generate transients. And then we do what is always required to not have junk science. Include numbers. What does advertising routinely do to promote scams? What was Dannon Yogurt doing to promote a scam; miracle foods that even cure colds and flu. Easy when subjective claims come with no facts and no numbers. Their lie created a massive sales increase. Because so many people only believe what they are told. And routinely forget to demand the numbers.


Essential to protection of everything - including those plug-in protectors so easy destroyed by surges - is one properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Because earth ground does protection from typically destructive surges. And because even direct lightning strikes must never cause appliance damage.


And finally, which appliance must be most protected during a surge? The smoke detector. Just another reason why informed or educated homeowners always earth one 'whole house' protector.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19662063
> 
> 
> westom, would any of the EATON Innovative Technology PTE/PTX Series be a good whole house surge protector?



I have no ideal which one that is. I do not even pay attention to model numbers. What do its specs say? Does it have a wire for every AC phase? Does it have the always required wire for earth ground? Is it rated for at least 50,000 amps?


Other factors that are unique to you are, for example, mechanical dimensions. Ie. does room exist on your breaker box to mount this device?


A guideline for decision making. A protector is selected so that it will conduct many surges without failure - its live expectancy over many surges and at least a decade.


How does the 'system' perform during each surge? That is defined by the connection to and quality of earth ground.


Where to address life expectancy over many surges - the protector. And where to address protection for each surge - earthing.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19662203
> 
> 
> So let's put some numbers to those claims. Most all those transients are noise. So trivial that some of the most sensitive appliances - bathroom and kitchen GFCIs, dimmer switches, etc) are not damaged. Most transients are maybe ten volts. Noise heard in lesser quality stereo and video equipment.



When it comes to circuitry/wiring and what is connected to it, I had a electrician do over my basement in January, he was quite ignorant of wiring home theaters, he connected/wired the circuit that my HT was to be plugged into also to the recessed ceiling lights on a dimmer and hallway light all on a 15 amp AFCI circuit breaker on 14 gauge wire. Of course it started to trip when I watched tv. So there are three things wired all on a 15 amp, 14 gauge wire. Will that cause damage to my plasma tv? I do believe I can hear the slightest increase buzz or hum when watching tv while the recessed ceiling lights are on.


When it kept tripping, we called him, he came over and took off the 15 amp AFCI breaker and tossed on a 20 amp breaker!














We had to call up another electrician to come over and take it off and put on a non-AFCI 15 amp breaker.


----------



## oppopioneer

westom, sorry, I didn't post the link to the Eaton IT PTE/PTX Protector Series and their data sheets...

http://www.08lightning.com/en/produc...asp?sortid=114


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19662458
> 
> 
> When it comes to circuitry/wiring and what is connected to it, I had a electrician do over my basement in January, he was quite ignorant of wiring home theaters,



You're not alone there. Most electricians, unless requested otherwise (and then they may well laugh at the request) will wire things according to code and generally-accepted electrical practices. Also, yes, dimmers are a notorious source of electrical noise.


----------



## oppopioneer

I contacted Eaton about which is a good 'whole house' surge protector, I asked them about their Innovative Technology PTE/PTX Protector line and this is what he responded back with:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Eaton* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Below is a link to our residential surge products but I do believe our residential group has some new products coming out. It would be best to contact them at 1800-809-2772 option 1 as I just support the commercial and industrial surge products. I do support the Innovative Technology products and I will say that they are a more industrial product and are really not designed for use in the home. They can be with out an issue but they don't offer the same warranties or coverage that the residential products do.
> 
> http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...Trap/index.htm
> 
> 
> Michael J Ruhe
> 
> Application Sales Engineer
> 
> 1000 Cherrington Parkway
> 
> Moon Township, PA 15108
> [email protected]
> 
> 1800-809-2772 option 4 sub option 2


----------



## Gizmologist

Can you please answer the direct question I posed in my previous post?

What reason do you have for not editing your multiple carbon copy posts down and make a simple declarative statement that NONE of the clients SurgeX has have any concept of what they are doing electrically?


Why will you not answer the SurgeX engineers direct request to talk?


----------



## oppopioneer

Are any of you knowledgable or familiar with RF digital coaxial surge protection at the service entrance? I have some questions about that area of surge protection. My surge eliminator I just ordered has no coaxial outlet on it, so I'd like to protect my coaxial's for my Comcast Triple Play (CATV, Internet, Phone) from lightning, surges, and has EMI/RFI filtering. I bought a ITT earlier, about a month ago and I found out it's not really a powerful and strong enough unit. I believe the companies below are superior.


I been searching around and reading and came across some very interesting coaxial surge protectors, 3 companies that got my attention, all used by the U.S. Military and major corporations and prefered by professional and amateur radio communication towers and telecommunications stations. I found it interesting that all over the website/forums of people that own and operate radio frequency towers and telecommunications towers they recommend and use the 3 companies below.


Polyphaser: http://www.protectiongroup.com/Surge...ing-Protection 


Alpha Delta: http://www.alphadeltacom.com/ 


Industrial Communication Industries (ICE) http://www.iceradioproducts.com/


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19670822
> 
> 
> Are any of you knowledgable or familiar with RF digital coaxial surge protection at the service entrance? I have some questions about that area of surge protection.



Polyphaser is an industry benchmark. Their legendary app notes do not discuss their products. It discusses what does surge protection - earth ground - and how their products must be connected properly to earth.


Almost nobody consumer needs a coax protector. It is often more important for other equipment such as Ham radios and commercial broadcasting. A wire from a ground block to earth ground means best protection. A protection simply means a higher voltage - a less conductive path to earth. Again, protection is not about the protector. Protection is about a connection to and quality of earth ground. Protectors are only installed when that utility wire cannot be earthed directly. Better than a connection via a protector is a connection without a protector.


Above discusses a 'secondary' protection system. With one protector or 1000, only one protection layer exists. That entire layer - the secondary protection layer - is defined only by the single point ground.


Also critical. Inspect the 'primary' protection system. According to IEEE papers, this is where most surge energy dissipates. A picture of what must be inspected on the primary surge protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html 


One reported that ground was not connected to AC wires atop the pole. He was suffering damage. The lineman insisted that ground wire did nothing. But with constant complaining, the lineman finally connected that surge protection wire. He never had surge damage again - so he posted. I don't know how true the story. But he is correct. Primary surge protection is important. Some linemen never learn how important or why.


Your cable should also have primary protection. Cable lineman are even less inclined to fix that broken wire when nobody complains. Generally that important ground wire connects to cable amplifiers.


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19662851
> 
> 
> Also, yes, dimmers are a notorious source of electrical noise.



Dimmers are noise sources when the dimmer was purchased defective. Any dimmer that creates noise is best disposed of as defective.


Wiring for theaters is mostly hype. As long as that circuit provides sufficient power. As long as the safety ground is properly wired. And as long as connections are made solid - ie not made using back-stab connections. Then wiring is sufficient.


This need for a dedicated circuit is nice. And accomplishes almost nothing.


----------



## Power Factor

westom,


Any idea how I can reach LLoyd at Phillips Microtek? I think you might know him.


Michael McCook

SurgeX International

Office: (+1)610-847-4956

Direct: (+1)267-251-6119

Fax: (+1)610-847-4955
[email protected] 

Skype: michael.mccook
www.SurgeXInternational.com


----------



## Power Factor




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19671105
> 
> 
> Dimmers are noise sources when the dimmer was purchased defective. Any dimmer that creates noise is best disposed of as defective.
> 
> 
> Wiring for theaters is mostly hype. As long as that circuit provides sufficient power. As long as the safety ground is properly wired. And as long as connections are made solid - ie not made using back-stab connections. Then wiring is sufficient.
> 
> 
> This need for a dedicated circuit is nice. And accomplishes almost nothing.


*Horse ****.*


For those wanting to know the truth and the proper electrical wiring practice for AV systems read this white paper by Jim Brown with Audio Systems Group: http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf 


Regarding AV system interfaces, read the white papers of Bill Whitlock with Jensen Transformers: http://www.jensen-transformers.com/apps_wp.html 


Both of these gentlemen are experts in our industry, are active members of the AES and are driving forces on global standards committees. Both are available for direct communication.


For those further inclined to learn more about everything audio, take a SynAudCon course www.synaudcon.com 


I remain available for direct communication regarding surge protection.


Michael McCook

SurgeX International

Office: (+1)610-847-4956

Direct: (+1)267-251-6119

Fax: (+1)610-847-4955
[email protected] 

Skype: michael.mccook
www.SurgeXInternational.com


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Power Factor* /forum/post/19676758
> 
> 
> Horse ****.



If you psted facts, then we are reading manufacturer numeric specs. And you also described why each number is relevant. You cannot. Specifications for effective protection do not exist. So hearsay is a replacement for reality?


Meanwhile the NIST (US government research agency) says why you are posting hearsay without any spec numbers:

> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective

> devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground,

> where it can do no harm.


Where is that dedicated and short wire to single point earth ground? Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly? Like an always missing numeric spec, the always required earthing wire also does not exist. No earth ground means no effective protection. A protector is only as effective as its connection to the protection device - single point earth ground.


So where are each relevant spec number? IEEE papers for generations have defined what an effective protector must always connect to. Did I mention the word 'always' applied? Where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Earth ground. Where did you post the always required spec numbers? Under horse ****?


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19671105
> 
> 
> Wiring for theaters is mostly hype. As long as that circuit provides sufficient power. As long as the safety ground is properly wired. And as long as connections are made solid – ie not made using back-stab connections. Then wiring is sufficient.
> 
> 
> This need for a dedicated circuit is nice. And accomplishes almost nothing.



"Accomplishes almost nothing", yes, if enough affirmative qualifiers are placed prior to the statement. Therein lies the problem between technical/theoretical and what happens practically.


----------



## oppopioneer

If AVS members who are just regular average amateurs, have your run of the mill home theater i.e. some nice speakers, amp, reciever, flatscreen, couple big subs but have no engineering degree then what makes you more qualified then the actual engineers who design and build the products? If you want to criticize the validity of a SurgeX for example then please post your own credentials, educational background, place of work or you're just another random posr. It reminds me of all these "experts" who play on YouTube all day typing in comments under every video claiming they're experts on the video being played. For example it could be a video of a $1 million dollar Ferrari that only 50 were made world wide and you got people fighting typing in comments claiming they're the experts on it, that they driven it, they test drove it, they know how it handles, they own one, they know it's 0 to 60 times etc and you know damn well these are a bunch of teenagers. lol


----------



## whoaru99

This is not to slam engineers because I have several as friends, but I can assure you they're not always right. They usually come around though after you tear up the calculations, FEA models, etc. and beat them about the head and shoulders with the physical evidence.


----------



## jneutron

What a thread.


One guy who installs, operates and maintains million dollar sound and light systems for a living.


One guy who does the same with megawatt level substations, teaches this stuff, and consults with BIG customers.


One guy who manufactures surge supression technology in a big way.


And a cut and paster who doesn't have any understanding of what he cuts and pastes..


Indeed, a very colorful thread..


Cheers, John


ps..Michael...a Paraprosdokian phrase is in order..


Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...


----------



## Power Factor




westom said:


> > You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective
> 
> > devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground,
> 
> > where it can do no harm.
> 
> 
> Wrong Lloyd.
> 
> 
> 
> For those wanting to know the truth and the proper electrical wiring practice for AV systems read this white paper by Jim Brown with Audio Systems Group: http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf
> 
> 
> Regarding AV system interfaces, read the white papers of Bill Whitlock with Jensen Transformers: http://www.jensen-transformers.com/apps_wp.html
> 
> 
> Both of these gentlemen are experts in our industry, are active members of the AES and are driving forces on global standards committees. Both are available for direct communication.
> 
> 
> For those further inclined to learn more about everything audio, take a SynAudCon course www.synaudcon.com
> 
> 
> I remain available for direct communication regarding surge protection.
> 
> 
> Michael McCook
> 
> SurgeX International
> 
> Office: (+1)610-847-4956
> 
> Direct: (+1)267-251-6119
> 
> Fax: (+1)610-847-4955
> [email protected]
> 
> Skype: michael.mccook
> www.SurgeXInternational.com


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Power Factor* /forum/post/19681881
> 
> 
> Wrong Lloyd.



More denials without any required facts and numbers.


Others noted how 'blacker blacks', et al is hoooweey. If expensive electronics needs better filtering, then it was done much better and for less money inside electronics. Apparently some very expensive electronics have crappy supplies because the consumer did not bother to first read spec numbers. Or human observation is again replacing hard facts and numbers with distortion, bias, and feelings. As if the magic add on box does something only because it costs much more.


Honest readers are still waiting for McCook's numeric specifications. If specs existed, then he posted them. Apparently face time and denials replace hard facts, science, and spec numbers. No wonder so many Nigerian princes also need our help.


Manufacturer numeric specifications. Everything else is just hoooweey. He cannot provide spec numbers because the Surgex is only a series mode filter for noise reduction.


Just so he does not forget to provide them. Where are those numeric specifications?


----------



## Gizmologist

DON'T TYPE ANYTHING! Copy and paste this link and read the companies who relay on SurgeX products. This a small list.

http://www.surgex.com/testimonials.html 


After you read the list and the comments, then come back and try to convince us that YOU are the only person who understands the issue of power surges brownouts etc and that not one of these engineers or agencies has a clue.


We are STILL waiting for you to answer the questions posed and why will you not directly contact SurgeX. Call Bill Whitlock with Jensen. He has forgotten more than most audio guys ever knew.


----------



## oppopioneer

Those who question SurgeX and it's valigity of performance, there are these basic questions that you can't answer with your own sources in facts, you respond with conspiracy only.


1.) Why do multi-million and multi-billion dollar projects who hire the best engineers and consulting firms in the world seek out SurgeX and often find themselves finally choosing SurgeX through their own independent testing of the specific needs and requirements at locations inside these projects? Any respected company or companies working together do NOT take any risks in terms or fire harzards, loss electronics, power failures, lawsuits and slap on any surge protector/power conditioner, there are city, state, federal laws and codes that have to be followed and checked, rechecked and checked again. In this world where everyone wants to sue like it's playing the lottery these companies know they can't leave any room open for lawsuits with faulty products and design.


The answer to the question above from the typical ignorant juvenile from random AVS bloggers is something you would get from a teenager like: "Well ahhh um ahh that just sounds like marketing hype, yeah they were paid off by those greedy corporate masters part of the illuminati."


Now if YOU make the claim that this is all marketing hype and these consulting firms and engineers were "paid off" to just slap on any old surge protector because of some pay off back room deal well where is your evidence of this and of SurgeX pulling these types of shenanigans? If you contact any lawyer who has a proper education and law degree he will tell you: "We're all innocent till proven guilty." so YOU need to back up any claims launched at SurgeX.


----------



## oppopioneer

Quote:

Originally Posted by *whoaru99* 
This is not to slam engineers because I have several as friends, but I can assure you they're not always right. They usually come around though after you tear up the calculations, FEA models, etc. and beat them about the head and shoulders with the physical evidence.








Who are these "engineers" and what companies do they work for? What is your name and company you work for and credentials for you to make these unfounded claims? I can make some random claim and say I beat the top engineer of NASA in a debate too and not back it up. lol You seem to get proven wrong quite a bit on here with numbers and evidence and are here not to learn, not to be educated, but to just sit in the corner and once and a while pop out and play antagonist and skeptic, we see this behavior quite often from youth all over the internet in forums, on YouTube comments section, it's just unoriginal, and the one who is the skeptic often doesn't post his/her own counter evidence. There is a defense and prosecution and both sides need to put forth "evidence" and that's what you don't do. You and some others on here seem to take the words of random amateurs on here instead of top level engineers, it's like you're waiting for some random amateur to post some magic Bible for you to give you all the evidence you need, and the more and more evidence given to you, you keep raising the bar higher and higher and nothing is good enough so you don't want to be convinced, just stay ignorant. lol I think you were the person on here, I could be mistaken but I think it was you who said that "YOU" personally have never had a piece of electronic equipment get hit by a bad surge so that means everyone else is wasting their money on surge protectors and you're own personal experience out of the billions of people on this planet is enough proof that you don't need one and everyone else doesn't either. lol That's like saying if you never wore a seatbelt while driving and never been in a accident then everyone else who wears seatbelts doesn't need to wear one either.


As Michael McCook posted his sources and places to look at the actual numbers and talk to world respected engineers at AES that can vouch for his company, if any of you were educated and knowledgable in the pro audio world and electrical engineers you would know these people...

http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf 

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/apps_wp.html 

http://www.synaudcon.com/site/


----------



## oppopioneer

whoaru99, but hey feel free to continue to do some random personal tests of electronics in your den or basement and when something "YOU" personally can't detect or find then "YOU" can pound your chest and claim to be more knowledgable than the engineers and with actual degrees from M.I.T., Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Oxford and people who have written literature and give seminars at AES.


----------



## Colm

Quote:

Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* 
...the engineers...with actual degrees from M.I.T., Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Oxford...
Hmmm...


Not to belittle the value of a EE degree, but if we were talking about the computer industry, that would have left out people like Bill Gates and Steve Wozniak.


----------



## oppopioneer

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Colm* 
Hmmm...


Not to belittle the value of a EE degree, but if we were talking about the computer industry, that would have left out people like Bill Gates and Steve Wozniak.
Are you Bill Gates or Steve Jobs and a billionaire with no college education? Most people aren't "LUCKY" and hit a grand slam as a teenager that fundamentally changes the entire world structure of a certain market. You also got to take into account "cheap foreign labor" in China and India that made those guys so wealthy the quick short cut way. I wouldn't be surprised if at Microsoft and Apple offices around the world they use SurgeX products to protect their computers.


----------



## Colm

Maybe. All the ones I ever saw at any of their sites were MOV based, but its been a few years. Same for Intel. But who knows?


----------



## oppopioneer

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Colm* 
Maybe. All the ones I ever saw at any of their sites were MOV based, but its been a few years. Same for Intel. But who knows?
Can you prove that? I doubt I'll get a answer to that question that backs up that claim because there's too many people behind a computer that lie about their lives and have fake personas.


----------



## oppopioneer

But there is a bottom line, mov's and Advanced Series Mode (ASM) have their place in the world in specific areas.


movs = To be used at the service entrance and breaker box.


ASM = To be used downstream at the circuit amp.


movs should NOT be used downstream, this is well documented and becoming more and more well known in the pro audio world by leading professionals at AES that movs are to be avoided, in fact they are harmful to electronics for downstream plug in protection.


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19682339
> 
> 
> More denials without any required facts and numbers.



Facts...ok, no problem. (anybody questioning these can easily find the contend on this site by a search).

1. You do not understand the distinction between single and multiport spd's.

2. You do not understand why a ground wire cannot supress line to line transients or surges.

3. You do not understand Faraday's law of induction.

4. You posted a link which you stated had the florida tower failing even though it's ground met code (your words), yet when we read it, the tower ground failed code by a factor of 22.

5. You claim that the maxim communication IC will support 15 kV, yet the actual spec is the I/O pins meet 15kV ESD requirements.

6. You cut and paste irrelevant sentences from NIST and Martzloff, mis-using the content to meet your needs.

7. You fail to read or understand even the abstracts of papers you cite.


8. You are comic relief.


Cheers, John


ps..happy holidays wes-dude..nice to see ya back.


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19683470
> 
> 
> movs should NOT be used downstream, this is well documented and becoming more and more well known in the pro audio world by leading professionals at AES that movs are to be avoided, in fact they are harmful to electronics for downstream plug in protection.



Actually, this is not entirely correct. For big installs with multiple phase or breaker runs, then yes indeed, you are right. One MOV clamping could actually pull the reference voltage up, frying other equipment.


But for small systems such as a home AV setup, a multiport SPD which can hold the reference to all the equipment at the same potential works just fine.


Used in cascade coordination with a whole house unit is even better, as the let through difference (generally 70 volts or so) will limit the maximum current to be clamped at the end of branch to (70 volts / total romex loop resistance).


Cheers, John


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jneutron* /forum/post/19684033
> 
> 
> But for small systems such as a home AV setup, a multiport SPD which can hold the reference to all the equipment at the same potential works just fine.



Actually, it's quite common in the pro audio world how recording studios and high end boutique stores that sell all different surge protector companies that advise people on HT setup that a "Advanced Series Mode" is best and to NOT use mov's downstream as it takes the surge and moves it or shunts it from the neutral to the ground. A mov based device not only is sacrficial and weakens over time but can suffer one big catastrophic failure and when it's compromised all of that energy goes right through to the connected equipment but even when the mov is intact there is still secondary problems like ground contamination allowing the surge to have a second chance to cause problems and find it's way into the equipment and what a lot of people don't realize is if you're also dumping the energy to the neutral it's also causing problems, it's causing a "Common mode surge." Products that rely on mov's downstream are not true surge eliminators, they are just surge "suppressors" and try to suppress, reduce and divert the surge, but even when it tries to reduce the surge it creates a spike above the peak of the AC. Connect any mov downstream device to a oscilloscope machine to see it trace the spike.


A mov based device will not be able to stop any where near a 6000 volt surge.


All over the internet people post reviews of their Monster's and Panamax's and the most common thing people say about them is something like: "Well my Panamax bit the bullet, had a lightning strike and it's destroyed, need a new one."


Usually people who still defend mov based devices like Monster, Panamax, APC, Triplite haven't been educated on mov versus Advanced Series Mode technology, they grew up buying those floor strips made in China as all the companies I listed above are, where as a SurgeX is made in the U.S. in North Carolina, so there is a big difference in the approach of a honest company like SurgeX and other companies like Monster which charge $500 for a 5 foot HDMI cable that performs exactly the same as a $3 dollar Monoprice cable according to CNET.com's tests and they're both made in the same Chinese factory by Copartner. That's also another topic with companies that use mov based devices downstream, pretty much all are made in China in undisclosed locations so the quality control is suspect. No professional recording studio and other highly respected home theater installers use mov's downstream, if they did they're ignorant on how surges can travel.


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19684310
> 
> 
> Actually, it's quite common in the pro audio world how recording studios and high end boutique stores that sell all different surge protector companies that advise people on HT setup that a "Advanced Series Mode" is best and to NOT use mov's downstream as it takes the surge and moves it or shunts it from the neutral to the ground.



What is advised and what is real is not necessarily the same thing.


The neutral is connected to the ground at the service panel. In general, a surge potential will be from line to the ground/neutral. At high dI/dt, a shunt to the ground conductor can raise it's potential, and this is what can get to other equipment which does not share the spd.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19684310
> 
> 
> A mov based device not only is sacrficial and weakens over time but can suffer one big catastrophic failure and when it's compromised all of that energy goes right through to the connected equipment but even when the mov is intact there is still secondary problems like ground contamination allowing the surge to have a second chance to cause problems and find it's way into the equipment and what a lot of people don't realize is if you're also dumping the energy to the neutral it's also causing problems, it's causing a "Common mode surge."



Whoa, slow down. Use some periods to separate concepts please.


MOV's do not fall from the sky. They are not like a rail switchyard capable of diverting willy nilly. They are two terminal devices.


Whenever multiport systems are protected by single port devices, there will be the possiblity of killing one piece by protecting another. I stated that already.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19684310
> 
> 
> Products that rely on mov's downstream are not true surge eliminators, they are just surge "suppressors" and try to suppress, reduce and divert the surge, but even when it tries to reduce the surge it creates a spike above the peak of the AC. Connect any mov downstream device to a oscilloscope machine to see it trace the spike.



The spike is the romex reaction to the high dI/dt which results from the hard clamp of the MOV. The spike propagates back up the line, not towards the protected equipment. (edit: when the MOV clamps, the termination impedance drops severely, and this causes a high speed reflection... This is an inversion of the spike voltage travelling back on the line, but most people who connect a scope do not know how to prevent the high di/dt induction.) Again, there must be a clear distinction between a single port application, and that of a multiport.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19684310
> 
> 
> A mov based device will not be able to stop any where near a 6000 volt surge.



Actually, it can do so trivially, depending on the waveform parameters. The argument you should be having is the use of the 20/8 standard for testing the devices.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19684310
> 
> 
> Usually people who still defend mov based devices like Monster, Panamax, APC, Triplite haven't been educated on mov versus Advanced Series Mode technology,....snip



Actually, I am quite well educated with MOV's. You have repeated several mistaken concepts regarding them. No problem of course, there is lots of misinformation on the net to be had.


Cheers, John


ps. The 6kV number you cite is actually the upper limit voltage used by supressor manufacturers, and it represents the flashover voltage at the wall outlet. For service panels in residential use, the number is 15kV.


pps. you posted this:""No professional recording studio and other highly respected home theater installers use mov's downstream, if they did they're ignorant on how surges can travel."" Quite honestly, most recording studio and HT installers do not understand surges and how they travel. All they can do is what they were told. Again, not a problem...it's anarchy that gets people in trouble.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jneutron* /forum/post/19684427
> 
> 
> ps. The 6kV number you cite is actually the upper limit voltage used by supressor manufacturers, and it represents the flashover voltage at the wall outlet. For service panels in residential use, the number is 15kV.



John,


Got a reference for this? UL 498 specifies a 2000V dielectric withstand voltage for 120V receptacles. Is there some other standard I am missing?


----------



## brittonal

So without arguing and starting a bunch of bs, what in the world is a good prection system for gear? I personally have a 50 inch DLP, Yamaha RX 1900, Blu ray Player, Wii, Xbox 360, and so forth. I mean what do we need? Surge X? Brickwall? I live in an apartment and may move back into a house again and wont be doing a full house protection system at the panel so whats good?!


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brittonal* /forum/post/19687567
> 
> 
> So without arguing and starting a bunch of bs, what in the world is a good prection system for gear?



It did not change because so many are educated by advertising. Either that energy is absorbed harmlessly in earth. Or you have no effective protection.


Why do you so discredit honest sources. Why are you asking disciples of advertising for technical advice? Reality does not change because it is too hard. The NIST (that does this research for the US government) says what we have known for over 100 years. That was demonstrated even by Franklin in 1752. Surges must dissipate harmlessly in earth. Otherwise the surge is conducting through wooden church steeples or household electronics to find earth destructively.


Any protection that would work adjacent to an appliance is already inside the appliance. Your concern is the rare transient - typically once every seven years - that hunts for earth destructively via appliances.


Telcos all over the world that must never suffer damage from over 100 surges with each thunderstorm. Why do they only use protectors connected close to earth AND up to 50 meters distant from electronics? Because they need protection. You do same. If that means even kludging a solution, it is still and always about the protector connecting energy short and harmlessly to earth.


There is no magic box protector. None. No protector does effective protection. The most ineffective also cost so much more money. Either energy connects harmlessly to earth. Or it only protects from surges that are made irrelevant by protection already inside all appliances. Even inside dimmer switches and GFCIs.


A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Or spend on the most expensive protector you can find. Latter is what so many here are recommending because price (not manufacturer numeric specs) proves quality. Your choice.


----------



## salmonsc

I'm not sure if you realize this - or maybe it is your intention? - but these grandiloquent responses to perfectly reasonable questions are turning people off this forum. Your condescending tone is really uncalled for. Why must you turn this thread into an ego trip? Folk seeking straightforward answers to very common concerns about power protection aren't necessarily "dupes of advertising" they are just people with lives who want help from other like-mined people (i.e. people who share the same interests) who have already been down the same path. Isn't that what these boards are all about?


----------



## Power Factor




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19682339
> 
> 
> More denials without any required facts and numbers.
> 
> 
> Others noted how 'blacker blacks', et al is hoooweey. If expensive electronics needs better filtering, then it was done much better and for less money inside electronics. Apparently some very expensive electronics have crappy supplies because the consumer did not bother to first read spec numbers. Or human observation is again replacing hard facts and numbers with distortion, bias, and feelings. As if the magic add on box does something only because it costs much more.
> 
> 
> Honest readers are still waiting for McCook's numeric specifications. If specs existed, then he posted them. Apparently face time and denials replace hard facts, science, and spec numbers. No wonder so many Nigerian princes also need our help.
> 
> 
> Manufacturer numeric specifications. Everything else is just hoooweey. He cannot provide spec numbers because the Surgex is only a series mode filter for noise reduction.
> 
> 
> Just so he does not forget to provide them. Where are those numeric specifications?



SurgeX specs are listed on each product cut-sheet, pick one on our site.


For those wanting to know the truth and the proper electrical wiring practice for AV systems read this white paper by Jim Brown with Audio Systems Group: http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf 


Regarding AV system interfaces, read the white papers of Bill Whitlock with Jensen Transformers: http://www.jensen-transformers.com/apps_wp.html 


Both of these gentlemen are experts in our industry, are active members of the AES and are driving forces on global standards committees. Both are available for direct communication.


For those further inclined to learn more about everything audio, take a SynAudCon course www.synaudcon.com 


I remain available for direct communication regarding surge protection.


Michael McCook

SurgeX International

Office: (+1)610-847-4956

Direct: (+1)267-251-6119

Fax: (+1)610-847-4955
[email protected] 

Skype: michael.mccook
www.SurgeXInternational.com


----------



## brittonal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *salmonsc* /forum/post/19688836
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if you realize this - or maybe it is your intention? - but these grandiloquent responses to perfectly reasonable questions are turning people off this forum. Your condescending tone is really uncalled for. Why must you turn this thread into an ego trip? Folk seeking straightforward answers to very common concerns about power protection aren't necessarily "dupes of advertising" they are just people with lives who want help from other like-mined people (i.e. people who share the same interests) who have already been down the same path. Isn't that what these boards are all about?



This is why I stopped coming here for a while. I just want a straight answer. I don't want all the bull. I have spent money on electronics and want to know if my money can be spent well on something that may protect my purchases. There has got to be some information on whats good + and whats not so good -. A surge protector recommendations thread turns into something completely opposite of what was intended.


----------



## Power Factor




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *salmonsc* /forum/post/19688836
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if you realize this - or maybe it is your intention? - but these grandiloquent responses to perfectly reasonable questions are turning people off this forum. Your condescending tone is really uncalled for. Why must you turn this thread into an ego trip? Folk seeking straightforward answers to very common concerns about power protection aren't necessarily "dupes of advertising" they are just people with lives who want help from other like-mined people (i.e. people who share the same interests) who have already been down the same path. Isn't that what these boards are all about?



Bravo!


...and to have industry professionals provide direct access for those who would enjoy that additional level of communication.


Cheers,

Michael


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brittonal* /forum/post/19688874
> 
> 
> There has got to be some information on whats good + and whats not so good -.



There is. Found in professional citations, basic concepts even demonstrated by Franklin, and located in every munitions dump, commercial broadcasting station, and telephone switching center where damage can never happen.


It is always so simple. Either surge energy connects to earth before entering a building. Or you have ineffective protection.


There is no magic box. No protector does protection. As was always understood even 100 years ago, either a protector connects massive energy harmlessly to earth. Or you have no protection.


But if you want a magic box to do protection, then go buy the most expensive protector you can find. Either you want a solution. Or you want to be scammed. A protector is only as effective as the only thing that does protection ... earth ground. That simple when you stop thinking of protection in terms of a magic box. For some, getting out of the box' is so difficult.


If the Surgex claimed surge protection, then he posted each number. And said why each number is relevant. He again posted no numeric specs because Surgex does not claim effective surge protection. The spec numbers - especially when numbers do not exist - answers your questions.


Protection is always - as in no other alternative - always about where energy dissipates.


----------



## oppopioneer

As a customer of both Panamax and SurgeX I can assure you that the build quality and the internal mechanisms of the SurgeX is superior for the protection and longevity of your electronics but also the actual surge protector device will last longer.


----------



## oppopioneer

Power Factor - Michael McCook, regarding IEC power cords, I ordered another SurgeX, this model is the XF2 for my plasma tv, it comes with a detachable IEC power cord, should I use the one supplied by SurgeX or the one supplied by Pioneer? Would have Pioneer designed or selected a certain cord to work in unison with their plasma? Does SurgeX's cord offer better protection?


I was told that a Transparent Audio IEC cord can improve the picture quality of tv's by a distributor who sells both SurgeX and Transparent. He claimed it made the picture on his Pioneer plasma "pop" more. They cost MSRP: $1,500.00, some others are over $600 dollars. Sounds like another "Monster" scam to me.

http://www.transparentcable.com/upgr...s.php?modCAT=2


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19686093
> 
> 
> I don't have to prove anything to the likes of you. Take it or leave it.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe. All the ones I ever saw at any of their sites were MOV based, but its been a few years. Same for Intel. But who knows?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19686093
> 
> 
> Where do you get off demanding proof of other peoples' experiences?



During this discussion you made some claims and comments that I think were untrue, you claimed all these "sites" and companies like Intel that you visited use mov's for downstream surge protection when we were debating mov's versus Advanced Series Mode, you threw a hissy fit when asked to back up this claim. You arrogantly mock actual engineers on here who are highly educated who posted their own contact info and company info for you to get all the information you need and for them to prove to you the validity of their product.


You been a member of this site since 2002 and and I've been here since March 2010 and I believe since March I have posted more links and sources to back up my claims than you have in about 9 years. I am NOT a engineer nor do I claim to be, I am NOT educated in this field, I'm just a average random run of the mill amateur just like you learning as we go along and 98% of everyone else on here as well. It's just too easy to make up fake personas and claim to all be experts online just to go to extremes to try to win a debate.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19686093
> 
> 
> You don't even know enough about electricity to keep an incompetent electrician from installing a 20A breaker on a 15A circuit in your house, as your own posts on your problems with an AFCI show.



My basement was done completely over in January. The electrician I hired is a certified electrician by the state and has all the proper permits. He wired my basement and AFCI's are now code required for new installations in living spaces like basements that are habitable rooms according to NEC. But it is important to note that on new installations by code you are not supposed to install AFCI's in bathrooms or kitchens, and vice versa with GFCI's in the living spaces. He along with most electricians aren't in the business to wire high end home theaters. If you think you can do a better job post your address and phone number buckle up your tool belt and come on over.


----------



## Gizmologist

Oppo, there is absolutely no such thing as a "transparent power cords". The whole power cord cable debate is rooted solely in the sales hype of commissioned salespeople and the facts in the world of physics about electron transmission through a piece of wire do not change according to the brand.


It is a physical impossibility for a power cord that is of sufficient gauge to in any way affect the performance of a TV monitor. You are dealing with a digital signal and the ONLY way to add "pop" to an image is through the internal signal processing- NOT through a power cable.


There are threads running currently on power cables for audio equipment where the sales folks have done a stellar job in suckering electronics novices into believing a 1,200.00 -or more-power cable does something magical (aside from draining a wallet) to the audio signal. Sadly these folks have zero clue as to what a power cable does and what is is connected to internally.


In short, it makes absolutely zero difference which cable you use. The ONLY electrical criteria to be concerned with is the current carrying ability of the cord. The device manufacturer is the best source of this information and the cord they supplied will be quite sufficient. That being said, ANY IEC cord of the correct gauge will be fine.


The retaill cost for an IEC power cable from a REPUTABLE manufacturer is about 10.00 MAX. I buy them buy the hundreds for about 5.00 ea. 16 awg, 6ft long and ultra flexible.


You must learn to ignore sales people pushing a particular cable for ANY purpose when they use terms like transparent.


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19686988
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> Got a reference for this? UL 498 specifies a 2000V dielectric withstand voltage for 120V receptacles. Is there some other standard I am missing?



I've been trying to find a hard copy explaining these numbers to provide reference to. I learned them back when I was an app. engineer at a not so small manufacturer of TVSS devices. I've noted seeing the 6kV number all across the web and in some test protocols, so it is industry standard practice. The 15 kV number I am not able to easily find (yet). But that was the standard our customers used for in the panel supressors. The 2kV DI test is just a QA test to protect consumers. The 6kV flashover number is not something that is required by NRTL's, just an emperically derived number which is an accepted maximum level of voltage that can ever get to the appliance cord via the hot to neutral terminals.


I'll keep looking for that 15kV reference, as it is a reasonable question.


Cheers, John


Here's a littlefuse link which shows the 6kV but they do not mention why it's chosen.

http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Ap...tes/EC6391.pdf 


Here, siemens talks about an embedded 6kV spark gap arrestor built into the meter pan.

http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/Produc..._is_Vital.aspx 


Note: a 6kV spark gap will NOT cascade coordinate properly with an in the panel device with a 400 volt let-through. The whole house device will clamp the lines and prevent the spark gap device from ionizing. It is only after a breaker has cleared the whole house device that the gap will turn on.


Also note that the seimens article speaks about a coordinated system of panel and end of branch spd's as a good multilevel approach to protection.


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19686093
> 
> 
> You don't even know enough about electricity to keep an incompetent electrician from installing a 20A breaker on a 15A circuit in your house, as your own posts on your problems with an AFCI show.



To be fair, he did call another electrician when the first put the wrong breaker in.


If I were in the same position, I also would have let the guy leave then call a better one. Of course, if it were a serious enough infraction, I'd have taken it up with the first guy immediately.


I would not wire the lights on the same branch as the outlets either. Overloading the breaker would kill my shins..










Cheers, John


----------



## Outlaw30

Power cords can make a difference. Some for the better and some for the worse. Especially in the video department. I've seen shielded after market power cords sharpen my image when connected to my blu-ray player. I also have seen my front projecter improve or worsen in the brightness and/or whiteness levels when used with different power cords. These changes were open and obvious. You don't know how baffaling it is to me when I see some engineers saying power cords make no difference when myself and others clearly see them. Its like a weatherman saying their is no such thing as snow while its snowing out the window!


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/19689742
> 
> 
> Oppo, there is absolutely no such thing as a "transparent power cords". The whole power cord cable debate is rooted solely in the sales hype of commissioned salespeople and the facts in the world of physics about electron transmission through a piece of wire do not change according to the brand.
> 
> 
> You must learn to ignore sales people pushing a particular cable for ANY purpose when they use terms like transparent.



Giz, thanks for the response. What I mean by "Transparent" is the name of a cable company, they make extremely expensive cables, even more than Audioquest. They are selling their power cords for over $600 dollars. The guy who sells them said he noticed a difference in his plasma picture by using them. lol



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Outlaw30* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Power cords most certainely do make a difference. Some for the better and some for the worse. Especially in the video department. I've seen shielded after market power cords sharpen my image when connected to my blu-ray player.



Outlaw, I'm not doubting you saw a difference with your own eyes, but is there any way to prove it with any scientific test with video patterns? I heard a guy say the Transparent power cords do make a difference. I would have to see it with my own eyes in a back to back test among multiple wire companies. But which wire brands improved the PQ and which brands made it worse?


----------



## Neurorad

Outlaw, I find that hard to believe.


I enjoy Westom's posts, though it's getting repetitive. More details would be helpful.


Mr. McCook - what numbers should I be looking for, on the SurgeX spec sheets? And why are those specific numbers important?


----------



## oppopioneer

I just found out another interesting tidbit...


W.J.H.W. one of the world's largest consulting firms specifies and seeks out using SurgeX products for it's projects. Check out their portfolio, it's very impressive!

http://wjhw.com/ 


WJHW provides consulting and design services for:


SOUND SYSTEMS

Audio Visual Systems

Scoreboard & Video Displays

Broadcast provisions & Video Production

Acoustics & Noise Control

Theatre & Spatial Planning

Performance Lighting Systems

Architectural Lighting Control Systems

Performance Rigging Systems

Distributed TV & Satellite Systems

Video Surveillance & Access Control Systems

Tel/Data Structured Cabling Systems


----------



## Neurorad

Oppopioneer, do you think there might be some monetary benefit, to the installer, involved in specifying expensive products, for a client? You know the installation company makes money on the hardware, right?


I really don't know how series mode protection works. Yet. I can't make a decision until I have more information. Just because a lot of people specify it, and install it, doesn't mean much. Just look at Monster(TM).


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19691059
> 
> 
> Oppopioneer, do you think there might be some monetary benefit, to the installer, involved in specifying expensive products, for a client? You know the installation company makes money on the hardware, right?



But the thing is, one of the world's most respected consulting firms that has earned that reputation won't specify and seek out mediocre products to install because their reputation is on the line and if they get a bad reputation they lose customers and money, clients will look else where. In the multi-billion dollar world of consulting firms it's very competitive. But whatever product the firm selects they get paid, they have to, how would they stay in business, do you think they do it for free? You're not putting enough emphasis on the actual product that has been selected and installed. If the product is faulty and of poor quality then the consultant firm is to blame, they get sued, it's on the cover of the New York Times and every other newspaper and cable news and there goes their business as clients will leave them, so they end up losing more money than what they ever gained. They won't take the risk and leave themselves open to massive lawsuits and live courtroom hearings.


But why would the U.S. govt use SurgeX in it's buildings and why would NASA use them to protect the uplink of the Hubble Telescope?


Govt likes nothing more than to tax, spend, tax, spend and if the govt wanted to make more money it would select a faulty product so they would have to keep replacing it and charge the tax payer and raise our taxes, but with a SurgeX and since there hasn't even been one known failure of a SurgeX product it's reliability actually forces the govt to not raise taxes because they don't have to replace them. Some companies like nothing more than to make faulty products that constantly need to be replaced so it keeps them flowing out of their factory which increases their sales, but with a SurgeX they produce less out of their factory because fewer are being replaced by customers. and they're made in the U.S. by U.S. citizens and in this time of cheap foreign Chinese labor the SurgeX is unique, they could have easily opened up shop in China and increased it's profits but they didn't. The govt chose SurgeX because their product protects sensitive electronics involving national security.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19691059
> 
> 
> I really don't know how series mode protection works. Yet. I can't make a decision until I have more information. Just because a lot of people specify it, and install it, doesn't mean much. Just look at Monster(TM).



Why don't you contact SurgeX and Michael McCook and ask him? If you're waiting for us amateurs to open up a pot of gold for you hear you won't get any answers, you'll never be convinced.


And what professional even uses Monster surge suppressors?


----------



## Gizmologist




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Outlaw30* /forum/post/19690513
> 
> 
> Power cords can make a difference. Some for the better and some for the worse. Especially in the video department. I've seen shielded after market power cords sharpen my image when connected to my blu-ray player. I also have seen my front projecter improve or worsen in the brightness and/or whiteness levels when used with different power cords. These changes were open and obvious. You don't know how baffaling it is to me when I see some engineers saying power cords make no difference when myself and others clearly see them. Its like a weatherman saying their is no such thing as snow while its snowing out the window!



I have made a nice career for 40 years working in pro audio and video installations, system design and repair. The video projectors we work with start at about 25,000 and go up to 250,000.00 EA. We also stack 2-3 projectors in custom made racks for shows like the Emmys and Oscars, Microsoft et al product rollout presentations, multi million dollar conventions, medical conferences etc where image clarity and accuracy are an absolute must.


We use sound systems that run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars and analog and digital mix desks that set us back around 50-100k to start.

We buy cable on spools direct from the manufacturers. Can you imagine how popular I will be if I simply tell all the engineers that do this for a living that they can save millions just by changing out a power cable?


We have the actual training experience AND the test and alignment equipment to maintain/modify and repair all this gear. We are talking about thousands of engineers with years of schooling and learned technical expertise. It would seem to me that it would be wise to take in the experience of those in the industry rather than a salesman or someone with an very easily influenced imagination.


The digital processing of a video signal is in no way affected by a power cable delivering the proper voltage and current. All white levels, black levels and clarity issues are solely the in the realm of on board processor circuitry powered by DC.


Did you know that you can buy a "black generator" as a separate device for a hundred bucks? Did you know that the black level and white levels are independently adjustable?


Sorry my friend but you have to learn the facts.


----------



## oppopioneer

Gizmologist which companies that make IEC power cords do you buy from? Does Belden make them?


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19689512
> 
> 
> You arrogantly mock actual engineers...



Talk about lies. I have mocked no engineers.


----------



## Neurorad

And I found an interesting tidbit...


Bill Whitlock is President of Jensen Transformers, and Jensen Transformers are used to manufacture SurgeX equipment. And, Jensen is a 'partner' of SurgeX.


And, SurgeX is a proud sponsor of Syn-Aud-Con, used as a reference by Mr. McCook as a source "to learn more about everything audio".


And, Mr. Jim Brown of Audio Systems Group is a paid consultant. Paid by SurgeX.


Nope, no conflict of interest here.


Even greatly respected, intelligent educators can be bought.


Mr. McCook, show me the numbers.


And, please explain what they mean. Or, have one of your engineers do it. If he hasn't posted here already.


From my reading (Mr. McCook, those references, although interesting reading, weren't relevant), it appears that the SurgeX series mode filter is a 'capacitive filter circuit', designed for reducing ringwave transients, which are low-amplitude transients, typically from motors.


Oppopioneer, I'm sick of reading about 'endorsements'. Am I going to buy gold because Glenn Beck endorses it? Glenn Beck receives money from Goldline, an antique gold coin seller. Conflicts of interest are everywhere. You'll realize this more when you get older.


Question everything.


Edit - see signature.


----------



## Neurorad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19691312
> 
> 
> Gizmologist which companies that make IEC power cords do you buy from? Does Belden make them?



hehe


----------



## Neurorad

I can't find much on 'UL A-1-1', other than this throw-away blog post, linked by some random surgex employee earlier in this thread

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/ma...ppressor_work/ 


Looks like a SurgeX lobbyist got some legislation passed.


Edit - not a random blog post, but an 'online' article authored by the chief engineer at ZeroSurge, a company that pays money to SurgeX, for licensing of their patented technology.


Here is quote from that author, J. Rudy Harford:


"With series filter technology, plug-in point-of-use filters are available that can repeatedly eliminate damaging surge energy and noise.


This eliminates the electrician-installed service entrance and branch circuit protectors needed by the shunt MOV technology."

http://www.cepro.com/article/the_myt...rge_protection


----------



## Neurorad

All SurgeX endorsements are either from manufacturers or salesmen.


I think Muncy comes the closest, to an independent endorsement.


But I wouldn't be surprised if he's paid by SurgeX, for his endorsement.


----------



## Neurorad

I think I need to re-read this thread, armed with new information.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19691670
> 
> 
> I can't find much on 'UL A-1-1'



Don't know about the UL part of it. SurgeX and the other series mode manufacturers do hype the following or something similar:


"Federal Guidelines: Grade A, Class 1, Mode 1 (CID A-A-55818)"


A little research on the internet yields the following.


CID stands for "commercial item description". CIDs are not guidelines on how to pick something. The are simply government lists of products that can be purchased through a centralized purchasing organization, in this case the General Services Administration or the Defense Logistics Agency. As such, it is simply a classification system. It doesn't necessarily mean that A-1-1 is always better than another classification. It all depends on what you need. If you need a three mode device with similar capabilities, you would get one with a A-1-2 classification. Likewise if you needed one with a higher voltage rating, because as Martzloff has pointed out lower is not always better, you would pick a different classification.


This CID was canceled in 2002. Apparently funding was reduced and more and more purchasing of many types of goods was being done directly with government credit cards. So many CIDs were canceled.


A check of a few manufacturers' listings on the UL site shows that series mode devices are not the only devices that could be classified A-1-1. There are single mode MOV based devices that could also be classified A-1-1. However, no new devices can be added to the CID because it no longer exists.


This CID only applied to 15A, 120V, single phase, 60Hz, plug-in or cord connected devices. So, it didn't even apply to 20A point-of-use devices, hard-wired devices, 3-phase devices, 50 Hz devices, 240V devices, etc. That leaves out a lot of the series mode products.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19691524
> 
> 
> And, SurgeX is a proud sponsor of Syn-Aud-Con, used as a reference by Mr. McCook as a source "to learn more about everything audio".



Community and Sanecore Ltd, our Chinese distributor and business partner, hosted the first-ever Syn-Aud-Con seminar in China. Over 50 students learned the “Core Principles of Audio,” Syn-Aud-Con’s flagship course, with simultaneous bullet-speed translation performed by Tao Zhang, a member of Community’s TAG Team.


Community is a proud sponsor of Syn-Aud-Con, the industry’s leading resource for real world audio education. For more than 30 years, Syn-Aud-Con has been providing practical, in-depth training on the principles of audio and acoustics to sound professionals all over the world. For more information on Syn-Aud-Con courses, visit www.synaudcon.com .

http://www.communitypro.com/index.php 


So there is quite a few sponsors who sponsor Syn-Aud-Con.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Nope, no conflict of interest here.
> 
> 
> Even greatly respected, intelligent educators can be bought.



"Bought off" ? or were they impressed with the product so much they were willing to put their name to it and like being associated with it?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mr. McCook, show me the numbers.



I don't speak for Michael McCook or anyone, but what numbers do you want to see and once you see them will you know what they mean and how to properly analyze them?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And, please explain what they mean. Or, have one of your engineers do it. If he hasn't posted here already.



Again, what are these "numbers"?


And if you don't like or believe the product's claims then it's your right to not buy it, boycott it then. I bought a SurgeX. I've also talked to two SurgeX engineers and they were very honest, they said there isn't any device on this earth that will protect a electronic device from a direct hundreds of thousands of volt lightning strike, so if you're trying to set the bar unbelievably high for a company that's a great accomplishment for that company and will probably make them feel really good.


But why haven't you shown this same type of passion and agressive indignance about the APC, Monster, Panamax, Triplite mov based surge suppressors? Why this passionate search for the secret answers of the magic bullet theory of SurgeX? Same goes with you Colm?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oppopioneer, I'm sick of reading about 'endorsements'. Am I going to buy gold because Glenn Beck endorses it? Glenn Beck receives money from Goldline, an antique gold coin seller. Conflicts of interest are everywhere. You'll realize this more when you get older.
> 
> 
> Question everything.



Do you own a GM or Chrysler/Dodge car or have stock in any companies, take any prescription drugs, use any banks? If you did than the congress and Obama Administration gave them a record amount of tax payers money in the form of corporate payoffs aka bailouts aka stimulus aka corporate welfare, so if you vote or voted for Obama or any of these other politicians who voted for it then the joke is on you and you never "questioned" anything.


Should people stop buying GMC Sierra trucks for the winter when J.D. Power Associates and Car And Driver Magazine ranks them #1 for many years when they recieved stimulus money? But let's say hypothetically that GM paid J.D. and C&D to pick them as #1, but why are they such popular trucks and have the most reliable transmission with the most torque and payload in it's class?


I'll buy Goldline regardless of who sponsored it or who is getting paid to endorse it, I'll buy Goldline because of that companies results and what they offer, not who sponsored it. The specific companies track record and results is what matters.


Tiger Woods endorses Nike, they pay him, he cheated on his wife with a bunch of escorts (I don't respect him for that) I buy Nike, I like Nike, I still own the same pair of Nike shoes that I bought in 1994 that have held up, I have Nike shirts that are over 20+ years old.


----------



## oppopioneer

Neurorad who do you currently work for and who have you previously worked for? I am not associated in any way with the surge eliminator/suppressor/power conditioner industry, I don't market or sell any electrical products.


And Colm if you don't like SurgeX or trust them then don't buy them. I like SurgeX and will continue to buy their products.


Carnegie Hall seems to like their products.


----------



## oppopioneer

At the end of the day the people and customers who have been tricked the most with the most marketing hype are people who buy mov based surge suppressors from APC, Monster, Panamax, Triplite because those companies spend far more on marketing then they actually put into R&D and sales reps at Best Buy, Office Max, Staples and many other electronic stores work on commission of those products.


I would like someone to post the marketing budgets of all the companies listed above and SurgeX included and see who spends more on marketing, false advertising, commission sales at retail stores on these products. But also post how much SurgeX pays it's own employees at their North Carolina factory and how much APC, Monster, Panamax, Triplite pay Chinese workers in overseas factories. Which company has better "worker's rights" and a more moral and ethical business strategy.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19692013
> 
> 
> And Colm if you don't like SurgeX or trust them then don't buy them.



I don't like or dislike any of the series mode products. As I have stated before, I have no firm position on series mode devices. I have done quite a bit of research on surges and surge protection. I have a reasonable understanding of the potential sources of damaging surges. I have a reasonable understanding of what connected equipment can withstand. I have a reasonable understanding of how MOV devices function and how to apply them safely. I am developing an understanding of series mode devices.


I do dislike what I consider misleading advertising, such as the reference to the A-1-1 classification of CID A-A-55818 which might lead an uninformed reader. But this kind of misleading advertising is hardly unique in the marketing world. And it really doesn't affect my decision one way or the other.


I will buy whatever is appropriate. At this point I am trying to separate the marketing hype from the facts. I have posted two straight forward questions I would like answered about the benefits of series mode protection that would help me make that decision. So far, I don't have an answer.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19692111
> 
> 
> At the end of the day the people and customers who have been tricked the most with the most marketing hype are people who buy mov based surge suppressors...



I agree with you on this, but because the whole need for surge-protective devices has been over-hyped, not because of the technology. If one could do a cost benefit analysis of surge-protective devices, I think you would find that in the USA we spend, on average, far more every year on preventing surge damage than the potential cost of the surge damage.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19692111
> 
> 
> ...how much SurgeX pays it's own employees at their North Carolina factory and how much APC, Monster, Panamax, Triplite pay Chinese workers in overseas factories. Which company has better "worker's rights" and a more moral and ethical business strategy.



Just curious. Are the products sold by SurgeX International manufactured in NC also? I like the idea of employing US workers at fair wages.


Not to defend any company's ethics, but because of competitive pressures, sometimes it comes down to employing workers in China, or employing no one. Even Chinese labor is becoming too expensive. Chinese and other companies are starting to move manufacturing to other countries.


----------



## Gizmologist

Oppo there are numerous sources for IEC cables. I buy most of mine from Allied electronics but also Mouser, Digikey, Futurlec, Calrad, and any industrial parts supplier. I use them for computer control equipment and audio/video gear I rent, repair and design.


American manufacturers include Belden, Carol, West Penn, American and numerous others. The max current an IEC chassis connector can handle is 15 A. No one designs a device using IEC connectors that will max out the connector's ampacity, therefor any cable that is larger than 14 awg is a complete waste. Usually the device current draw is limited to about 8A max by design.


----------



## WhiteVan

Now he's at RC spewing the same crap. http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...ad.cgi?23557,2


----------



## westom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WhiteVan* /forum/post/19695539
> 
> 
> Now he's at RC spewing the same crap.



Either he can post science, numbers, and facts that provide useful information. Or spiteful post after disparaging remarks. Those who know the least routinely resort to mockery and insults.


People without knowledge - without any facts, numbers, citations, or electrical training - love to recite what only the most conned would believe. Take delight in posting disparaging remarks and personal insults. Insults easily get the least educated to believe it.


Where does WhiteVan (or McCook) post even one fact or number? Every responsible reader here should be demanding those manufacturer specification numbers. But he cannot. He is an expert because he feels' he knows. Numbers for ineffective protectors do not exist.


Surgex is a series mode filter. A filter no different than what is already inside every power supply. Series mode means that filter will (magically) stop and absorb surges. Works when noise transients (not surges) are solved. Useless when the transient has so much energy as to blow through that filter - like a flood through any undersized dam.


Salesmen quickly learn to never post numbers. As any good lawyer knows, avoid anything you don't already know the answer to. He will never post those specs. First because the actual numbers are damning. Second, because he has no idea what numbers are relevant.


Important when promoting a profit center is to always avoid hard facts. The most naive will believe anything when someone is a 'nice guy'. But the educated instead want reasons why - with numbers. Also called the manufacturer numeric specifications - which are never provided.


Or one can simply learn from damning questions. How does that Surgex stop what three miles of sky could not? It doesn't. How do hundreds of joules in a Surgex or surge protector absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. How to avoid such questions? Attack the messenger. Be spiteful and nasty. And never post manufacturer specs that would expose the con. WhiteVan, et al does that to keep you confused and ignorant.


Apparently it is his ego trip. In the tradition of Limbaugh, how to keep the better educated confused by using abusive attacks. And never post even one manufacturer spec number. I keep asking. Where are those spec numbers? He cannot provide what he does not comprehend - and what does not exist.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WhiteVan* /forum/post/19695539
> 
> 
> Now he's at RC spewing the same crap. http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...ad.cgi?23557,2



This was also posted over there:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cubitus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> A customer of mine had a Monster HTS-5500, that big big big power surge and line conditioner... He was living in his new home for 3 days when a truck of the landscape company hit the temporary AC line installation outside. EVERYTHING that was connected into an AC outlet has died. Everything. Appliances, alarm, clocks, radio, shaver, microwave, water heater, computers, and of course A/V stuff. The HTS cover was melted down. I think I still have pictures somewhere...
> 
> 
> At least, the landscape company's insurance paid for replacing everything!
> 
> 
> But William David Design is right: a direct hit by lightning = game over for electronics...


 http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...ad.cgi?23557,2 


So avoid Monster!


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19696032
> 
> 
> Either Surgex is a series mode filter. A filter no different than what is already inside every power supply. Series mode means that filter will (magically) stop and absorb surges. Works when noise transients (not surges) are solved. Useless when the transient has so much energy as to blow through that filter - like a flood through any undersized dam.
> 
> 
> Or one can simply learn from damning questions. How does that Surgex stop what three miles of sky could not? It doesn't. How do hundreds of joules in a Surgex or surge protector absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. How to avoid such questions? Attack the messenger. Be spiteful and nasty. And never post manufacturer specs that would expose the con. WhiteVan, et al does that to keep you confused and ignorant.



In response to westom, this is from a AVS member who is a professional installer who owns his own business who shall remain nameless, so I'm not plagiarizing...


"So what does SurgeX do? It holds the energy briefly and slowly releases it on the neutral wire. That way it never touches the ground wire and whatever it diverts is done slowly so the voltage never gets too high to be damaging. I don't know exact numbers it uses but here is an example. Let's say we have 1000 volts of diverted energy, with an MOV this would be sent to the ground wire in 1 millisecond. With a Series mode it is sent to the neutral wire of 100 volts over 10 milliseconds."


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WhiteVan* /forum/post/19695539
> 
> 
> Now he's at RC spewing the same crap. http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...ad.cgi?23557,2



It is interesting to note that it took no time at all for the guys there to realize that westom is clueless. One even went so far as to post that it looks like westom is a bot..re, hal9000.


Cheers, John


----------



## G-Rex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jneutron* /forum/post/19696198
> 
> 
> It is interesting to note that it took no time at all for the guys there to realize that westom is clueless. One even went so far as to post that it looks like westom is a bot..re, hal9000.
> 
> 
> Cheers, John



Hal9000... Remember NOMAD from Star Trek "faulty...error...analyze"









http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLRS91IG6Ik


----------



## G-Rex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19696093
> 
> 
> In response to westom, this is from a AVS member who is a professional installer who owns his own business who shall remain nameless, so I'm not plagiarizing...
> 
> 
> "So what does SurgeX do? It holds the energy briefly and slowly releases it on the neutral wire. That way it never touches the ground wire and whatever it diverts is done slowly so the voltage never gets too high to be damaging. I don't know exact numbers it uses but here is an example. Let's say we have 1000 volts of diverted energy, with an MOV this would be sent to the ground wire in 1 millisecond. With a Series mode it is sent to the neutral wire of 100 volts over 10 milliseconds."



The newer SurgeX series mode units do not divert to ground or neutral.


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Rex* /forum/post/19696346
> 
> 
> Hal9000... Remember NOMAD from Star Trek "faulty...error...analyze"



Youze can call me Roy...


And youze can call me Kirk..



But yaz duzzint hafta call me...Roykirk....



Happy holidays to all.



Cheers, John


----------



## Neurorad

Seriously, I'd like to see the numbers, and have them explained.


Right now, it seems to me, that the SurgeX units are only good for ringwave transients.


And, a whole-house SPD, at the service entrance, using MOVs, should be the first purchase.


And, plug-in SPDs, that use MOVs, at the outlets, should be avoided.


How do the SurgeX products fit into the UL 1449 3rd edition system? Are they UL 1449 3rd edition listed? Why not? What's the story behind that?


And, my apologies to J. Rudy Harford. He and Zero Surge hold several original patents to Series Mode Technology.


----------



## Gizmologist

As this "debate" continues, Merry Christmas and or Happy Channukah to all.

Perhaps in 2011 actual science will prevail and the truth shall set us free.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19697636
> 
> 
> And, plug-in SPDs, that use MOVs, at the outlets, should be avoided.



Even single mode devices that only handle normal mode surges by shunting them to neutral?


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19696054
> 
> 
> This was also posted over there:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...ad.cgi?23557,2
> 
> 
> So avoid Monster!



That damage doesn't sound like it was caused by a surge. It sounds like it was caused by a sustained over-voltage condition. Most people who buy surge protective devices don't know the difference. Could have been caused by the neutral coming loose. Even a series mode device wouldn't have prevented it, although the series mode device itself might have survived if the voltage ratings of the parts inside it were high enough. MOV-based devices don't tolerate sustained over-voltage conditions. As Martzloff has pointed out most MOV-based device failures appear to be due to over-voltage conditions, not surges.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad*
> Seriously, I'd like to see the numbers, and have them explained.
> I posted the attachment a couple of years ago....Eaton has a great deal of information about TVSS and testing. http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r3/nashville.../2006/TVSS.pdf
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Right now, it seems to me, that the SurgeX units are only good for ringwave transients.
> They post only one of the specified standard tests for TVSS (SPD). I have not had time to contact their engineer for information on the missing tests.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> And, a whole-house SPD, at the service entrance, using MOVs, should be the first purchase.
> Yes, this is your first line of defense. A high quality unit at the service entrance will enhance survival of all equipment downstream.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> And, plug-in SPDs, that use MOVs, at the outlets, should be avoided.
> ...depends upon the situation
> 
> Quote:
> 
> How do the SurgeX products fit into the UL 1449 3rd edition system? Are they UL 1449 3rd edition listed? Why not? What's the story behind that?
> They are not listed, have not been tested to 3rd edition as far as any information I have seen. This testing is expensive, not all manufacturers choose to have these tests performed. They also only list the products as being tested to adjunct 1449 and 1283 which is the test spec for a filtering device
> 
> 
> 
> UL 1283.pdf 10.16796875k . file
Click to expand...


----------



## oppopioneer

I would like to know why SurgeX hasn't yet put forth their design for UL 3rd Edition, I hope you guys can find out by contacting them, I think they're sick of me contacting them by now regarding other information, I haven't asked them about the 3rd Edition testing though, so please find out when you get some free time.


What is the specific test they put the products through in UL 3rd Edition testing and what requirements and standards have to to be met to achieve the UL 3rd Edition seal of approval?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/19697668
> 
> 
> As this "debate" continues, Merry Christmas and or Happy Channukah to all.
> 
> Perhaps in 2011 actual science will prevail and the truth shall set us free.



Yes! Merry Christmas and Happy safe Holidays everyone!


----------



## Colm

Type 3 devices, those intended to be located no closer than 30' of wiring from the panel, are tested at 6000V, 3000A under UL 1449 3rd edition instead of 6000V, 500A under 2nd edition. Test is now done at the end of 30' of wiring, plus any cord on the device. Shouldn't be a problem passing because they already tout 6000V, 3000A. But the measured voltage protection rating (VPR) may be higher than the old suppressed voltage rating (SVR). The only thing I can imagine is they might be tweaking the design to keep that number down. Who knows? Other than that, it is just a matter of getting everything tested at a NRTL, they use Intertek which touts a faster turnaround time than UL, and relabeling to meet current requirements. Maybe the problem is just money?


The issue might be type 2 devices, those intended to be located closed than 30' of wiring from the panel. There is a new requirement for a nominal discharge current test. It is a stress test that purportedly more accurately reflects the real world. Manufacturer chooses a current level. Device is subjected to multiple surges and operation at maximum continuous operating voltage (MCOV) in between. VPR cannot vary by more than 10%. It may be that the design needs to be tweaked to meet this requirement at the current level they want.


Maybe they want to qualify all their devices as type 2 devices. 2011 NEC allows type 3 devices closer than 30' of wiring to the panel if they have passed type 2 testing.


Current listings can be found at Intertek under Electronic Systems Protection. Only thing the listing says is UL 1449.


----------



## gwblack

Ouch! As a non-techie trying to glisten practical advice, reading these pages is making my head hurt







It would be very helpful if each of the key folks involved here could summarize your answers to two basic questions (please pretend you're writing to a 80-yr old lady with no electrical background







)


1) Specifically what level/type of protection do you suggest for a $1500-$2000 home entertainment investment? (i.e. I don't want to spend $500-$1000 to protect stuff that's not worth many multiples of that amount). I would need to hire an electrician for anything semi-complex (i.e. beyond plug-in devices).


2) Should I or should I not protect my Dish satellite receiver? As has already been stated, Dish recommends against plugging the satellite receiver into a SPD since they say it can interfere with proper functioning, whereas other people don't buy into that.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gwblack* /forum/post/19698642
> 
> 
> 1) Specifically what level/type of protection do you suggest for a $1500-$2000 home entertainment investment?



From a cost/benefit approach, the value of your equipment does not warrant spending a lot on protection from surges. The danger of surge damage is over-hyped and electrical devices are designed to withstand surges up to a certain level. If you can stand the loss if it ever happens, perhaps because of insurance, and can withstand the down time until the equipment is replaced, perhaps the best answer is no protection.


One thing that no one here seems to disagree with is if you own your own house, the best place to start is at the service entrance. Install a properly grounded whole-house device with a UL 1449 3rd edition 20kA In rating with the lowest voltage protection rating VPR you can get. It will cost maybe $50 to $250 plus installation. It will provide substantial protection not only for your AV gear, but also all the other electrical devices in your house. An example of such a device is the Cutler-Hammer CHSPUltra. Similar devices are available from other reputable companies like Square D, Leviton, etc.


If you don't own your own house, or you choose not to install a whole-house device because of cost or some other reason, you are looking at a point-of-use device, also called a type 3 device. Unfortunatey, there is no simple answer here.


Point-of-use devices come in two basic types, MOV-based and series mode. Most devices are MOV-based. Series mode devices avoid at least one technical issue common to MOV-based point-of-use devices. But they are more expensive that your budget appears to allow for. So, you are probably looking a purchasing a MOV-based device. MOV-based devices will work, but you need to apply them properly to avoid actually increasing the possibility of surge damage.


There are two flavors of MOV-base devices, ones that protect only against normal mode surges (the most important source of damaging surges) and those that protect against both normal mode surges and common mode surges (which are generally less of a threat). The ones that protect only against normal mode surges may be preferable for interconnected equipment. However, finding one may be difficult. Most devices protect against both modes of surges. Unfortunately, the way they do it causes the potential for damage to interconnected equipment in some cases if all the equipment is not properly protected. If you go that route you want one you can plug everything that is connected to the equipment you want to protect into, including any cables coming in from an antenna or your cable company. I don't have a recommendation, but I am sure someone will. They don't need to be very expensive.


> Quote:
> 2) Should I or should I not protect my Dish satellite receiver?



Yes, you need to protect any equipment that is connected to any other equipment you want to protect, or at least protect the connection between them. A surge can travel from one device to another through the cables that connect them.


----------



## gwblack




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19698940
> 
> 
> From a cost/benefit approach, the value of your equipment does not warrant spending a lot on protection from surges. The danger of surge damage is over-hyped and electrical devices are designed to withstand surges up to a certain level.
> 
> 
> If you own your own house, the best place to start is at the service entrance. Install a properly grounded whole-house device with a UL 1449 3rd edition 20kA In rating with the lowest voltage protection rating VPR you can get. It will cost maybe $50 to $250 plus installation. It will provide substantial protection not only for your AV gear, but also all the other electrical devices in your house. An example of such a device is the Cutler-Hammer CHSPUltra.
> 
> 
> If you don't own your own house, or you choose not to install a whole-house device because of cost or some other reason, you are looking at a point-of-use device, also called a type 3 device. They come in two basic types, MOV-based an series mode. Most devices are MOV-based. Series mode devices claim to avoid some technical issues common to MOV-based devices. But they are more expensive that your budget appears to allow for. So, you are probably looking a purchasing a MOV-based device. MOV-based devices will work, but you need to apply them properly to avoid actually increasing the possibility of surge damage. You want one you can plug everything that is connected to the equipment you want to protect, including any cables coming in from an antenna or your cable company. I don't have a recommendation, but I am sure someone will. They don't need to be very expensive.
> 
> 
> Yes, you need to protect any equipment that is connected to any other equipment you want to protect. A surge can travel from one device to another through the cables that connect them.



Great write-up and advice! Thank you! This is the type of practical and simple-to-follow advice that non-techies like me can understand and benefit from.


Thanks for the model suggestion for whole-house protection. I'm planning to get my electrician out to install one after the holidays, and am still trying to figure out which one to get. BTW - do these "whole house" systems also protect the TV and phone lines, or just the power lines? And I have a "mini panel" (under the main circuit box) with circuits tied to my Generac outside standby generator unit -- will I need another whole-house unit for it, or can a single unit be tied to both the main and generator circuit panels? Thanks!


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gwblack* /forum/post/19698971
> 
> 
> ...do these "whole house" systems also protect the TV and phone lines, or just the power lines?



They come in both flavors. There are CHSP modules you can add on. There are combination devices. Your phone lines should already be protected. Telcos have put surge suppressors in their network interface devices (NID), the telco box on your house, for decades. For the TV cables, you can get a combination device, or you can get separate surge protective devices that you just wire to ground at the panel. Some here would say that a simple ground block on the coax, grounded at the panel, is sufficient. Note that the key to an effective system is a short path to a good ground. Optimally, everything should enter the house near your electric service entrance so the ground path is short.


> Quote:
> ..."mini panel"... will I need another whole-house unit for it



Never dealt with this situation. These devices usually attach through a 2-pole breaker. If that breaker is on-line whether you are on utility power or local power, then I would guess that you only need one. IIWY I would contact tech support at one of the manufacturers and ask them. Maybe somebody else here has some experience with this.


If you are interested in other manufacturers, I have had a Leviton device my on house for 10 years. Never had any damage to electrical equipment that I could pin or a surge before or after installing it, except before I had problems with incandescent lamps and dimmers, both of which it takes a 1500V or so surge to kill. After, no problems whatsoever for 10 years and counting. Just goes to show that an appropriately sized MOV-based device is good for 10 years or more service. Also goes to show that most equipment is not as susceptible as the surge protective device manufacturers would have you believe. And I have had lots of electronics for many, many years, and more computers that I care to remember. Of course I live in an area with relatively few nearby lightning strikes. Might be different somewhere else.


----------



## gwblack

Thank you again, Colm! Great advice!


----------



## Power Factor




Neurorad said:


> And I found an interesting tidbit...
> 
> 
> Bill Whitlock is President of Jensen Transformers, and Jensen Transformers are used to manufacture SurgeX equipment. And, Jensen is a 'partner' of SurgeX.
> 
> 
> And, SurgeX is a proud sponsor of Syn-Aud-Con, used as a reference by Mr. McCook as a source "to learn more about everything audio".
> 
> 
> And, Mr. Jim Brown of Audio Systems Group is a paid consultant. Paid by SurgeX.
> 
> 
> Nope, no conflict of interest here.
> 
> 
> Even greatly respected, intelligent educators can be bought.
> 
> 
> ----idiot stops talking here-----------------------------
> 
> 
> Jensen has nothing to do with SurgeX products, never has. However you are correct that the gods of audio are conspiring to confound you with the truth. Those other SynAudCon sponsors are quite the bunch of hacks too.
> 
> 
> For those wanting to know the truth and the proper electrical wiring practice for AV systems read this white paper by Jim Brown with Audio Systems Group: http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf
> 
> 
> Regarding AV system interfaces, read the white papers of Bill Whitlock with Jensen Transformers: http://www.jensen-transformers.com/apps_wp.html
> 
> 
> Both of these gentlemen are experts in our industry, are active members of the AES and are driving forces on global standards committees. Both are available for direct communication.
> 
> 
> For those further inclined to learn more about everything audio, take a SynAudCon course www.synaudcon.com
> 
> 
> I remain available for direct communication regarding surge protection.
> 
> 
> Michael McCook
> 
> SurgeX International
> 
> Office: (+1)610-847-4956
> 
> Direct: (+1)267-251-6119
> 
> Fax: (+1)610-847-4955
> [email protected]
> 
> Skype: michael.mccook
> www.SurgeXInternational.com


----------



## oppopioneer

gwblack if you're not interested in a 'whole house' surge protector that you need to call a electrician to install, then a SurgeX plug-in unit by your home theater is the best unit you can get...


The SurgeX SA1810 is selling for $300


Some other models are:


SurgeX SA966

SurgeX XS10

SurgeX XS-6

http://imsproav.com/main/Search-Resu...hString=surgex 


They sell within $250 to $380


A 'Whole House' surge protector you can get at Lowe's or Home Deport for anywhere from $150 to $600, but just make sure you have a licensed certified state electrician put it in.


----------



## gwblack

Quote:

Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* 
gwblack if you're not interested in a 'whole house' surge protector that you need to call a electrician to install, then a SurgeX plug-in unit by your home theater is the best unit you can get...


The SurgeX SA1810 is selling for $300


Some other models are:


SurgeX SA966

SurgeX XS10

SurgeX XS-6

http://imsproav.com/main/Search-Resu...hString=surgex 


They sell within $250 to $380


A 'Whole House' surge protector you can get at Lowe's or Home Deport for anywhere from $150 to $600, but just make sure you have a licensed certified state electrician put it in.
Thank you for the advice. From what I've read here lately, it seems a decent "whole house" protector, along with basic "point of use" protectors, may be best for my application. If not, please let me know what I'm missing.

Thanks!


----------



## westom

Quote:

Originally Posted by *gwblack* 
1) Specifically what level/type of protection do you suggest for a $1500-$2000 home entertainment investment?


2) Should I or should I not protect my Dish satellite receiver? As has already been stated, Dish recommends against plugging the satellite receiver into a SPD since they say it can interfere with proper functioning, whereas other people don't buy into that.
Why is so much money better protection? The most expensive protectors do not even claim much more than near zero protection in their spec sheets. You want what is done in munitions dumps, your telco switching center (CO), commercial broadcasters, 911 emergency response centers, etc. IOW you want something from responsible companies such as Leviton, Intermatic, Siemens, Square D, General Electric, etc. Not garbage from APC, Monster, Tripplite, etc.


So go to Lowes or Home Depot. Ask for a less than $50 'whole house' protector. Then view spec numbers. It must be 50,000 amps or higher so that even lightning strikes cause no damage.


Either you install it or you have an electrician install it. And have earthing upgraded to both meet and exceed post 1990 code. Same protection exists in any facility that can not suffer damage.


That is your 'secondary' protection system. The protector costs about $1 per protected appliance - even from direct lighting strikes.


Now inspect your 'primary' surge protection system. A picture of what to view:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html 


Protection is always about connecting a protector short as possible to earth. It is that simple. And even why munitions dumps do not explode with each lightning strike. Show me anything inside the house that can provide equivalent protection. Does not exist. Protectors adjacent to appliances sometimes makes appliance damage easier - especially if a 'whole house' protector does not exist or has inferior earthing.


----------



## Neurorad

Here is a forum thread from someone who DIY'd their whole-house surge suppressor install:

http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/ind...3entry110663 


I'd look to products from Eaton.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19708082
> 
> 
> Here is a forum thread from someone who DIY'd their whole-house surge suppressor install:
> 
> http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/ind...3entry110663
> 
> 
> I'd look to products from Eaton.



Thanks, looks like a good read, I saved it to my Favorites list.


----------



## Neurorad

Interestingly, my local HD and Lowes don't sell whole house surge devices.


But, they're readily available at every electric supply store.


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19701159
> 
> 
> The most expensive protectors do not even claim much more than near zero protection in their spec sheets.



Wrong. *If you understood what the spec sheets actually said*, you would know better also.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19701159
> 
> 
> So go to Lowes or Home Depot. Ask for a less than $50 'whole house' protector. Then view spec numbers. It must be 50,000 amps or higher so that even lightning strikes cause no damage.


*A direct hit will destroy any whole house unit*. Period. You speak garbage.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19701159
> 
> 
> That is your 'secondary' protection system. The protector costs about $1 per protected appliance - even from direct lighting strikes.


*A whole house unit will not survive a direct strike..especially a return stroke*.. You spout garbage.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19701159
> 
> 
> Protection is always about connecting a protector short as possible to earth.



The only thing that a short earth ground can do is limit the reference voltage at the point of connect. It has NOTHING to do with line to neutral or line to ground, or line to line surges or transients.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *westom* /forum/post/19701159
> 
> 
> It is that simple.



If it were simple, you might understand it.


What you spout is lies. Plain and simple. And if others are correct, you spout lies *to drum up personal business*.


Cheers, John


----------



## Neurorad

jneutron, who do you work for?


what is YOUR bias?


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19728305
> 
> 
> jneutron, who do you work for?



It matters not. I will confirm that I do not sell any surge products, I do not specify any surge products. I do not recommend any particular surge products. I do not sell wire, nor do I sell anything. I do not work for anybody in the audio field. I have assisted some vendors of wire and speakers who requested such things..but have received no compensation for anything I have freely given.


You, as well as every other person who reads my posts, must use your own intelligence to determine the accuracy of my statements. If you question the accuracy of anything I state, ask me publicly and I will provide complete answers to all questions to the best of my ability. If it involves code, I will cite chapter.

If it involves maxwells equations, I will clearly specify.

If it involves math, I will show it.

If it cites a paper, such as Martzloff, I will quote exactly what I say.

If it requires I draw a schematic or drawing, I do so.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19728305
> 
> 
> what is YOUR bias?


_*Safety.*_



I cringe when I see wannabe "experts"...ones with no formal training on a topic, attempt to dazzle others with copy and pastes..edit: (_*Specifically, when such actions are being used in an attempt to support statements which are dangerously incorrect*_.)


As to your questioning my expertise, my abilities, and my agenda...there is nothing wrong with you asking these questions, that is *exactly* what _*should*_ be done.


Cheers, John


ps. Have a safe and prosperous new year.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jneutron* /forum/post/19728515
> 
> 
> It matters not. I will confirm that I do not sell any surge products, I do not specify any surge products. I do not recommend any particular surge products. I do not sell wire, nor do I sell anything. I do not work for anybody in the audio field. I have assisted some vendors of wire and speakers who requested such things..but have received no compensation for anything I have freely given.
> 
> 
> You, as well as every other person who reads my posts, must use your own intelligence to determine the accuracy of my statements. If you question the accuracy of anything I state, ask me publicly and I will provide complete answers to all questions to the best of my ability. If it involves code, I will cite chapter.
> 
> If it involves maxwells equations, I will clearly specify.
> 
> If it involves math, I will show it.
> 
> If it cites a paper, such as Martzloff, I will quote exactly what I say.
> 
> If it requires I draw a schematic or drawing, I do so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*Safety.*_
> 
> 
> 
> I cringe when I see wannabe "experts"...ones with no formal training on a topic, attempt to dazzle others with copy and pastes..edit: (_*Specifically, when such actions are being used in an attempt to support statements which are dangerously incorrect*_.)
> 
> 
> As to your questioning my expertise, my abilities, and my agenda...there is nothing wrong with you asking these questions, that is *exactly* what _*should*_ be done.
> 
> 
> Cheers, John
> 
> 
> ps. Have a safe and prosperous new year.



So basically you're just a regular bloke like all of us? Welcome to the club, cheers mate, now get me a beer and pass the chips.


----------



## Power Factor




jneutron said:


> It matters not. I will confirm that I do not sell any surge products, I do not specify any surge products. I do not recommend any particular surge products. I do not sell wire, nor do I sell anything. I do not work for anybody in the audio field. I have assisted some vendors of wire and speakers who requested such things..but have received no compensation for anything I have freely given.
> 
> 
> You, as well as every other person who reads my posts, must use your own intelligence to determine the accuracy of my statements. If you question the accuracy of anything I state, ask me publicly and I will provide complete answers to all questions to the best of my ability....."
> 
> 
> You Rock John, and I think we've brought sanity to a thread held captive by a hand full of idiots.
> 
> 
> I remain available in the forums 4th dimension of live conversation.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Michael McCook
> 
> SurgeX International
> 
> Office: (+1)610-847-4956
> 
> Direct: (+1)267-251-6119
> 
> Fax: (+1)610-847-4955
> [email protected]
> 
> Skype: michael.mccook
> www.SurgeXInternational.com


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19729648
> 
> 
> So basically you're just a regular bloke like all of us?



Never said otherwise.


Been an EE since '77. Currently making really interesting stuff in a job that I enjoy very much because it is intellectually stimulating and amazingly esoteric. But where I work is not a bludgeon. What is _explained_ is what needs be considered and questioned.


Presently, I despair at the level of scientific and engineering understanding of the last, the current, and the next generation of kids. As such, I try to take some small part in the scientific education of our young. Sometimes it requires updating the profs as well..sigh




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19729648
> 
> 
> Welcome to the club, cheers mate, now get me a beer and pass the chips.



mmmmm,, beer..


Cheers, John


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Power Factor* /forum/post/19730855
> 
> 
> snip...I think we've brought sanity to a thread held captive by a hand full of idiots.



While one or two may deserve that handle, for the most part..everybody here has been quite intelligent. It's always an interesting and colorful discussion when professionals are trying to explain to laymen some aspect of their expertise. For me, I try my best to explain at the necessary level without condescension edit: (_*If I happen to be the subject expert, and patience when I am the one with no understanding of the topic*_)..(sometimes I succeed at that..sometimes not very well.)







Even westom brings something to the table.. imagine how boring this thread would be without him?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Power Factor* /forum/post/19730855
> 
> 
> I remain available in the forums 4th dimension of live conversation.



You don't mean...


The dimension of sight....the dimension of sound...


The dimension of ......mind?


Cheers, John


----------



## oppopioneer

Michael McCook - Power Factor...


I got my SurgeX XF2 yesterday, plugged it into my plasma and cable box and it's working fine, it's great quality, sturdy, in a metal frame chasis, no cheap plastic. It's a good piece of mind to know a high quality product is protecting my electronics. I think maybe the SurgeX lowered and reduced the plasma buzz and made the tv a little more quiet and that's pretty cool.


Not to nit pick, well maybe a little, just some customer recommendations...


The lights on it are extremely bright, the side of the unit that has the lights is facing the wall underneath my entertainment center and it's lighting up the back wall, pretty big noticeable glow, so I put two pieces of tape over the lights to dim them, I still see a faint glow but it's good now. I can't mount it behind my plasma because it's a 60" inch plasma, weighs over 135 pounds and it's wall mounted with only about 3 and a half inches of room between the wall and the back of the tv, plus the big metal wall bracket.


But if in the future SurgeX could offer a dimmer for the lights would be great or just reduce the brightness level.


The circuit amp the SurgeX is plugged into is a 15 amp on a 14 gauge wire, it's powering these components:


Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-151FD 60" inch plasma

Comcast HD cable box

4 recessed ceiling lights on a dimmer

Hallway light


Am I stressing the SurgeX at all?


I know, I know I should have had a dedicated line put in for the HT but the electrician wired everything that way. He was following code.


Everything on that circuit I would guess is around 1000 watts? Am I stressing the SurgeX XF2?


----------



## whoaru99

Quote:

Originally Posted by *jneutron* 
While one or two may deserve that handle, for the most part..everybody here has been quite intelligent. It's always an interesting and colorful discussion when professionals are trying to explain to laymen some aspect of their expertise. For me, I try my best to explain at the necessary level without condescension


Thanks. Regardless of what camp I may be viewed in, you said eloquently what I had posted in a much less so way, and then deleted, regarding that comment by Mr. McCook.


I respect the style by which you post.


----------



## Outlaw30

oppopioneer, I purchased the SurgeX SA82 for my front projector in my home theater. I also noticed smoother image/better colors maybe do to the normal/common mode noise filtering. My brother recently spoke to a SurgeX tech who informed him if the surge protector is pushed too hard you may hear a humming sound/vibration emitting from it. Otherwise your probably OK. You may want to confirm this with SurgeX. I recently had a chance to compare the SA82 to the AC-215A, Furman's equivalent device. The Furman was slightly less smooth, yet more sharp/brighter image compared to the SurgeX. So both surge devices had their own good points in the video department.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Outlaw30* /forum/post/19743904
> 
> 
> oppopioneer, I purchased the SurgeX SA82 for my front projector in my home theater. I also noticed a smoother image thanks to the normal/common mode noise filtering. My brother recently spoke to a SurgeX tech who informed him if the surge protector is pushed to hard you may hear a humming sound emitting from it. Otherwise your probably OK. You may want to confirm this with SurgeX. I recently had a chance to compare the SA82 to the AC-215A, Furman's equivalent device. The Furman was slightly less smooth do to normal mode only conditioning, yet had a brighter image compared to the SurgeX. So both surge devices had their own good points in the video department.



I have my plasma tv and cable box plugged into the SurgeX XF2, if I unplug the cable box from the SurgeX and plug the cable box into the wall outlet and left the tv plugged into the SurgeX will the cable box effect the tv in a negative way with a bad surge? The only thing connecting the cable box to the tv is a HDMI wire. Maybe I should take some stress off the SurgeX and unplug the cable box from it?


----------



## Outlaw30




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19744575
> 
> 
> I have my plasma tv and cable box plugged into the SurgeX XF2, if I unplug the cable box from the SurgeX and plug the cable box into the wall outlet and left the tv plugged into the SurgeX will the cable box effect the tv in a negative way with a bad surge? The only thing connecting the cable box to the tv is a HDMI wire. Maybe I should take some stress off the SurgeX and unplug the cable box from it?



I have my LCD TV, Amp, and subwoofer at the entertaiment center connected to a Furman P1800PF. This surge protecor has Power Factor correction. It stores 45+amps in reserve when your amp/subwoofer really need it. On a busy 15 amp line that extra 45 amp burst can come in handy. The cable box, game consoles, wireless bridge, and Blu-ray player are plugged into a BrickWall series mode protector. Also, I installed a TII 212 whole house cable coax surge protector at the service entrance of my home. All this protects my equipement pretty well. In summary, yes you should have as many of your electronics as possible, at your entertainment center, surge protected.


----------



## Gizmologist




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Outlaw30* /forum/post/19743904
> 
> 
> oppopioneer, I purchased the SurgeX SA82 for my front projector in my home theater. I also noticed a smoother image thanks to the normal/common mode noise filtering. My brother recently spoke to a SurgeX tech who informed him if the surge protector is pushed to hard you may hear a humming sound/vibration emitting from it. Otherwise your probably OK. You may want to confirm this with SurgeX. I recently had a chance to compare the SA82 to the AC-215A, Furman's equivalent device. The Furman was slightly less smooth probably do to normal mode only filtering, yet had a brighter image compared to the SurgeX. So both surge devices had their own good points in the video department.



Did you use a colorimeter with a reference video test pattern to measure changes in purity, saturation, black levels, lag, slew etc? That is the ONLY way to accurately and reliably measure the image.


I would love to hear the explanation of how any common mode noise makes it through a high current switching power supply since there is NO connection to the neutral whatsoever in a switching power supply and the entire circuit is a fully balanced "secondary" providing multiple ripple-less DC voltages.


----------



## oppopioneer

What should I do about my SurgeX XF2 and my tv and cable box plugged into it? I think I might be stressing the XF2 and I'm thinking of unplugging the cable box out of it and plugging it directly into the wall for now and only have the tv plugged into the SurgeX. Now can a bad surge from the outlet that goes into the cable box hurt the tv when the tv is plugged into the SurgeX and the only thing connecting the cable box and tv is a HDMI wire or is my tv isolated from the cable box? Do bad surges travel through HDMI wires to the connected equipment?


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Outlaw30* /forum/post/19744852
> 
> 
> Also, I installed a TII 212 whole house cable coax surge protector at the service entrance of my home.



You can do much better than the TII. There are superior coaxial protectors on the market that the U.S. govt uses and professional radio towers use to protect their cables that can handle more watts.


Industrial Communication Engineers (I.C.E.) http://www.iceradioproducts.com/ 


Alpha Delta http://www.alphadeltacom.com/ 


Polyphaser http://www.protectiongroup.com/Home 


This can be used at the breaker box:


LEVITON 51110-PTC http://stopsurges.com/LEVITON-51110-...-51110-PTC.htm 


Talking to Michael McCook we talked about coaxial protection at the service entrance...


At the service entrance the surge diverter should be bonded to a copper rod in a grounded steel conduit. The rod should be 3 feet or less. Michael can explain it better than I can.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19746139
> 
> 
> At the service entrance the surge diverter should be bonded to a copper rod in a grounded steel conduit. The rod should be 3 feet or less.



NEC requires that a ground rod be at least 8' long and be driven to a minimum of 8'. It requires a minimum of two ground rods if the first one doesn't test to 25 ohms or less. Most installers just drive two ground rods. There are other effective grounding means. My local jurisdiction requires Ufer grounds for new construction and upgrades. A grounding electrode system that meets NEC requirements is not necessarily sufficient for adequate surge protection. But a grounding electrode system that does not at least meet NEC requirements almost certainly isn't sufficient for adequate surge protection.


The ground rod is driven directly into the ground. It is not encased in conduit. The grounding electrode conductor is required to be in conduit if it is less than a certain size. If that conduit is metallic, it has to be grounded. It is better to use nonmetallic conduit if your local code does not disallow because steel conduit increases the inductance of the grounding electrode conductor.


The connection from the surge protective device to the ground rod should be as short as possible. Generally the only factor you have control over for an AC surge protective device is the length of leads to the panel. Longer leads mean a high let through voltage. You don't have much more control for other surge protective devices in many cases. Just mount it as close to the service entrance as possible and bond to one of the permitted locations.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19746515
> 
> 
> NEC requires that a ground rod be at least 8' long and be driven to a minimum of 8'. The connection from the surge protective device to the ground rod should be as short as possible. Generally the only factor you have control over for an AC surge protective device is the length of leads to the panel. Longer leads mean a high let through voltage. You don't have much more control for other surge protective devices in many cases. Just mount it as close to the service entrance as possible and bond to one of the permitted locations.



Yes, what I think I got wrong was Michael was refering to the copper wire coming into the house to the breaker box should be as short as possible, not the rod driven into the ground.


----------



## whoaru99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19746108
> 
> 
> What should I do about my SurgeX XF2 and my tv and cable box plugged into it? I think I might be stressing the XF2 and I'm thinking of unplugging the cable box out of it and plugging it directly into the wall for now and only have the tv plugged into the SurgeX. Now can a bad surge from the outlet that goes into the cable box hurt the tv when the tv is plugged into the SurgeX and the only thing connecting the cable box and tv is a HDMI wire or is my tv isolated from the cable box? Do bad surges travel through HDMI wires to the connected equipment?




The loads of your gear weren't anywhere near the rating of the SurgeX. Around 50-60% if I recall. It's not healthy to worry so much.


----------



## Outlaw30

Quote:

Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* 
You can do much better than the TII. There are superior coaxial protectors on the market that the U.S. govt uses and professional radio towers use to protect their cables that can handle more watts.


Industrial Communication Engineers (I.C.E.) http://www.iceradioproducts.com/ 


Alpha Delta http://www.alphadeltacom.com/ 


Polyphaser http://www.protectiongroup.com/Home 


This can be used at the breaker box:


LEVITON 51110-PTC http://stopsurges.com/LEVITON-51110-...-51110-PTC.htm 


Talking to Michael McCook we talked about coaxial protection at the service entrance...


At the service entrance the surge diverter should be bonded to a copper rod in a grounded steel conduit. The rod should be 3 feet or less. Michael can explain it better than I can.
I'm sure their are better surge protectors for cable. But, I'm happy with the TII. It was easy to install/ground at the service entrance, has a good 1.5 ghz throughput, did not degrade my high def TV image, or limit my internet. Its also waterproof and emi/rfi shielded.


----------



## Outlaw30




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gizmologist* /forum/post/19745093
> 
> 
> Did you use a colorimeter with a reference video test pattern to measure changes in purity, saturation, black levels, lag, slew etc? That is the ONLY way to accurately and reliably measure the image.
> 
> 
> I would love to hear the explanation of how any common mode noise makes it through a high current switching power supply since there is NO connection to the neutral whatsoever in a switching power supply and the entire circuit is a fully balanced "secondary" providing multiple ripple-less DC voltages.



Gizmologist, no I did not use any test patterns. You see I have a Sony SXRD front projector with a nine foot wide Da-Lite "High Power" gain screen. Anyone who has this screen will tell you its very sensitive to light gain/drop. Its very reflective and obvoius to light change. This is how I noticed brightness/whiteness level changes in power cord and surge protector swap outs. These same swap outs on a standard plasma or LCD TV may not be noticable for they are much smaller, back-lit, and very bright to begin with. I even swapped out power cords to the SurgeX and Furman. I don't think you would like to hear the results so I will leave that out.







As far as common mode noise filtering is concerned. Thats a question for SurgeX. What I can tell you is another member spoke to a Furman engineer regarding their top of the line IT-REF model which includes common mode filtering. The engineer stated that common mode filtering is a good feature to have in a power conditioner. You want to know anything beyond that talk to Furman. If common mode filtering matters not, why would these top end companies spend money and resources adding this feature to their products? Marketing? I don't think so, like ordinary people companies do not like to waste money.


----------



## razr67




> Quote:
> you see i have a sony sxrd front projector with a nine foot wide da-lite "high power" gain screen. Anyone who has this screen will tell you its very sensitive to light gain/drop. Its very reflective and obvoius to light change. This is how i noticed brightness/whiteness level changes in power cord and surge protector swap outs.



lol


----------



## Outlaw30




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *razr67* /forum/post/19748792
> 
> 
> lol



This is the thanks one gets for posting observations on AVSF. A wisecrack from a person who tests/does nothing.


----------



## Gizmologist

A colorimeter can also be used on an opaque/reflective surface. When we use large venue projectors, (Barco, DLP, Christie) on a 15x20 ft matte white or HD format surface screen, we frequently stack up to 3 projectors in specially designed rigs to superimpose the 3 images into one for an ultra intense image.


Black levels must be especially matched and as black as possible. BTW black is NOT the absence of a video image, it is a generated signal the same as all the other colors.


Each one has to be perfectly matched to the others to maintain registration sharpness and image color correct rendition. we also setup large venues with mulitple projectors and screens such as you see n concerts or the Emmys. Oscars etc. These are perfectly matched using reference materials.


Funny thing though, we can achieve all that using show generators hundreds of feet of 2/0 distro cables, portable distro centers, and the stock cables provided by the manufacturers.


----------



## G-Rex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *razr67* /forum/post/19748792
> 
> 
> lol



So tell me, what size video display do you use? A sudden brightness drop on a projector with a very large screen is very noticeable. Of course objective testing is even better though but that doesn't mean he did not observe a brightness drop. Outlaw better to do the testing...


----------



## razr67




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Outlaw30* /forum/post/19748875
> 
> 
> This is the thanks one gets for posting observations on AVSF. A wisecrack from a person who tests/does nothing.



You know nothing about me...but I know that you have no idea what 'scientific method' is, nor do you have even the most basic understanding of electronics.


You're post is more of a joke than anything else, hence the laugh.


----------



## razr67




> Quote:
> A sudden brightness drop on a projector with a very large screen is very noticeable.



...and indicates a problem with your projectors power supply....although I'm not surprised that many of you don't understand this.


----------



## Gizmologist




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *razr67* /forum/post/19749006
> 
> 
> ...and indicates a problem with your projectors power supply....although I'm not surprised that many of you don't understand this.



And the problem is NOT brand of the power cable.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whoaru99* /forum/post/19747112
> 
> 
> The loads of your gear weren't anywhere near the rating of the SurgeX. Around 50-60% if I recall. It's not healthy to worry so much.



I know, but my gear isn't the only thing on that circuit that the SurgeX is on, my recessed ceiling lights and hallway light are also on the same circuit as what the SurgeX is plugged into, and the question is whether or not the other things on that circuit are also effecting the SurgeX?


----------



## Colm

The only loads relevant to the 8A rating of your SurgeX device are the ones plugged into it. If the breaker on the SurgeX device is not tripping, you do not have a problem.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19750811
> 
> 
> The only loads relevant to the 8A rating of your SurgeX device are the ones plugged into it. If the breaker on the SurgeX device is not tripping, you do not have a problem.



Ok, thanks


----------



## Speedskater

A couple of notes:

a] If the wire to the ground rod is in a metal conduit, then both ends of the conduit must be connected to the ground wire.

b] Bill Whitlock notes that having some of the equipment on surge suppressors can be dangerous to other interconnected equipment without surge suppressors.


see page 40
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/a...%20seminar.pdf


----------



## Neurorad

John - you obviously have a bias to the SurgeX products, if Mr. McCook knows you by name.


It is a positive bias, I might add.


----------



## Neurorad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jneutron* /forum/post/19725815
> 
> 
> Wrong. *If you understood what the spec sheets actually said*, you would know better also.
> 
> 
> 
> *A direct hit will destroy any whole house unit*. Period. You speak garbage.
> 
> 
> 
> *A whole house unit will not survive a direct strike..especially a return stroke*.. You spout garbage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing that a short earth ground can do is limit the reference voltage at the point of connect. It has NOTHING to do with line to neutral or line to ground, or line to line surges or transients.
> 
> 
> 
> If it were simple, you might understand it.
> 
> 
> What you spout is lies. Plain and simple. And if others are correct, you spout lies *to drum up personal business*.
> 
> 
> Cheers, John



The bold, red, increased font raises my suspicion that you are not completely truthful.


For example, what you said is true, but really, what is the reason for the short, straight pigtails of the SPD, at the service entrance?


Westom says to make sure the SPD is rated to 50K amps, and you say a direct strike means toast? IEEE is wrong in their rec?


You're speaking in half truths here, and I sense a bias.


What gives? You sticking up for your buddy, John?


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19764686
> 
> 
> John - you obviously have a bias to the SurgeX products, if Mr. McCook knows you by name.



What a very odd thing to say. You also know my name, you just used it. So, does this mean that I also have a bias towards you or what you state?


It seems odd to overlook the fact that I have put my name at the bottom of every post I have ever made here?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19764686
> 
> 
> It is a positive bias, I might add.



A positive bias towards what?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19764736
> 
> 
> The bold, red, increased font raises my suspicion that you are not completely truthful.



Well then, ask questions. It matters not to me whether you are suspicious, just what questions you might have..



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19764736
> 
> 
> For example, what you said is true, but really, what is the reason for the short, straight pigtails of the SPD, at the service entrance?



Finally, an actual question.. Good.


MOV's will react to terminal voltages in less than roughly 500 picoseconds. The real problem is the inductance of the loop the MOV is in. The flying pigtail on a whole house SPD is the only method available for the device to see line to neutral transients. As such, how it is dressed in the panel will affect the loop inductance and the di/dt (rate of rise) of the current across the MOV. Hence, it's transient response.


Note that that limitation does not exist in the line to line absorption, as the blades are only an inch apart and they have an aspect ratio which increases the reluctance path... therefore decreasing the conductor self inductance...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19764736
> 
> 
> Westom says to make sure the SPD is rated to 50K amps, and you say a direct strike means toast? IEEE is wrong in their rec?



You have stated three absolutely independent concepts here. You should have put some periods in.


Concept 1. spd at 50 kA... this is a recommendation, not an absolute. AND (in red to highlite the facts) *it is the specification of the MOV to survive the peak current given a transient waveform based on the 8us/20us requirement.* I note that lightning bolts do not care what the test specification is for an MOV, they will do what they do.


Concept 2. A direct strike does not follow the IEEE 8/20 test.(note: some vendors are incorrectly referring to this spec as 8/20 millisecond, not microsecond). Initial strikes can run anywhere from 30kA to 120 Ka, and return strokes can run 300 kA. MOV's are not rated to handle that kind of hit.


Concept 3. The IEEE does not specify that a whole house SPD survive a direct stroke. The testing of whole house spd's makes assumptions on the loop resistance, the source impedance, peak current, and current waveform.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19764736
> 
> 
> You're speaking in half truths here, and I sense a bias.



Stating such does not make it fact. You've clearly approached this thread with your own prejudices but have not provided any engineering content. Again, ask questions and I will gladly answer them..spouting rubbish to attack me is unbecoming.


If you believe I have stated a half truth, ask a specific question. *Vague allegations* aren't floating my boat, nor supporting your contentions..



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19764736
> 
> 
> What gives? You sticking up for your buddy, John?



So lets see. He's my buddy because he knew my name was John.


But yet, you just called me John? I guess this means you are my "buddy" as well?? (shades of Nomad)


Your diversionary tactics are clearly inadequate for the task. Please stick to actual engineering, or at least ask intelligent questions which I would be glad to answer.. Instead of attempting to bypass your inappropriate reactions to the discussion at hand..


Cheers, John


----------



## jneutron

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Neurorad* 
John - you obviously have a bias to the SurgeX products, if Mr. McCook knows you by name.


It is a positive bias, I might add.
I have no bias either towards surgeX type serial surge supression, nor towards MOV based parallel shunt suppression. I have never recommended any surgeX product, nor have I attempted to steer anybody away from it.


Your statements are diversionary attempts, period.


You are a very confused individual, but not in the way you would take the comment...I clarify..


You are confusing my electrical and fire safety and educational concerns about the completely hilarious, totally inaccurate, childlike, inarticulate rantings of west-dude......with a preference (or bias) towards any product.


As I stated last year, I have no preference for either type, I sell neither, I buy neither, I work for nobody in the business, and I've not engaged in any technical discussions nor consulted for pay with any whole house spd, end of branch spd, utility line spd, or MOV device manufacturer_.(edit: I did PM one guy who I think did racks for home theaters...he had some cool technical papers on his website and on one of them I provided him some technical corrections..I do not know if he took them or not..I don't even remember what the errors I spotted were..)_

I do take issue with child-like rantings of any individual who simply cuts and pastes disjointed, misapplied clips or links from actual engineers. Many of his rants are completely inaccurate, and some are actually dangerous.


You are not the first individual to be bamboozled by his cut and paste rantings, nor will you be the last.


As I said, ask technical questions, I will answer them to the best of my ability.


Cheers, John


----------



## jneutron

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Speedskater* 
Bill Whitlock notes that having some of the equipment on surge suppressors can be dangerous to other interconnected equipment without surge suppressors.
Nice link. Of note is the fact that he specifies two levels of supression. One at the service entrance, and series mode end of branch supression. Also of note, is the fact that his drawing puts 6 kilovolts across the printer line cord. Leaving us with the eternal question...did the 1800 volt loop kill the printer, or was it the 6 kV coming in the line? Had a whole house spd been put in, the maximum ground drop would have been 100 volts less the inductive tempering of the ground run, with 400 minus MOV induced IR drop arriving at the printer hot to neutral.


Cascading supression is a good thing to do. However, what was not discussed is the use of a multiport device at a group of equipment to protect against a reference float. In the picture depicted, the 6kV comes in via the hot at the service panel. A near strike will induce a voltage in the loop (faraday's law of induction), and that would not be stopped by a service panel spd with a series mode or even parallel mode device at the end of branch. All the equipment would need to be grounded at the same point, that is what those big powerbars do with the tele jacks, cable jacks, etc, all on one box.


Cheers, John


----------



## Neurorad

So, you don't deny that you know Mr. McCook personally. Got it.


This is one of the quotes that threw me:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by westom
> 
> So go to Lowes or Home Depot. Ask for a less than $50 'whole house' protector. Then view spec numbers. It must be 50,000 amps or higher so that even lightning strikes cause no damage.





> Quote:
> Response posted by JNeutron
> 
> A direct hit will destroy any whole house unit. Period. You speak garbage.



I don't understand why you would respond like this - but I'm aware you've discussed these issues with westom in other threads, in multiple forums. Maybe you're just frustrated.


What rating would you suggest for a whole-house SPD, if not 50 kA or higher?


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19772552
> 
> 
> So, you don't deny that you know Mr. McCook personally. Got it.



Some of your postings are comic relief. Thanks for the laugh.


I also did not deny knowing the president of the United States either.. nor, have I denied knowing you personally. How many people will I have to deny knowing? One billion? Two?


Everybody sees your statements here as diversionary. Look... you assumed either a personal or a business relationship existed, not a problem. Just accept the responsibility of the error, admit you made a mistake... No problem.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19772552
> 
> 
> This is one of the quotes that threw me:



text:

""Originally Posted by westom

So go to Lowes or Home Depot. Ask for a less than $50 'whole house' protector. Then view spec numbers. It must be 50,000 amps or higher so that even lightning strikes cause no damage."" end of text..


Ok, easy enough to answer...the first half is a statement, the second is a horribly inaccurate assumption.


The ability of an MOV to survive depends on several factors.


1. It's physical volume: The energy it absorbs will increase it's temperature, based on the heat capacity of the device. Double the volume, roughly double the joule rating.(while not exact, for the purpose of discussion it will do.)

2. It's voltage/current rating. Voltage will be roughly related to it's thickness between terminals, and current will be roughly related to it's area: At high current ramp rates, the current capability will be related more closely to the circumference, as high speed currents will tend to skin within the device, crowding the edge and avoiding the middle.

3. The conduction path characteristics which carry the pulse. Unvaporized copper wire will have it's resistivity, so indirect strikes which do not vaporize the copper will be tempered by the path resistance. Once the copper has vaporized, the resulting plasma conduit is essentially a _*really*_ good conductor. Same with the ionized air channel.


If you exceed any of the MOV ratings, survival is not guaranteed. the 50 kA spec is a rating based on a 8uS/20uS test, not a lightning hit. A direct strike can run 150 kA in one direction, 300 kA in the other.. Needless to say, a 50kA device will NOT survive a direct hit like this.


What a 50 kA device WILL do, is protect the house in the event a strike occurs to the utility structure anywhere in the neighborhood. When that happens, the utility wires are delivering the transient to your house. The utility wires provide a real tempering of the violence of the strike. By the time it gets to your house, there are large wiring resistive and inductive drops.


The statement that a 50kA device will protect a house against a direct strike is an outright lie. And, a dangerous one. w-dude regularly lies about some florida tower failure..claiming that even when it met code for earthing, it's not enough...yet when one reads the article, it clearly states that the grounding resistance was 550 ohms. The article states rather nicely, that the earth bond failed code by a factor of 22.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19772552
> 
> 
> I don't understand why you would respond like this



Because a direct strike will indeed destroy a whole house spd. In no way, shape, or form, should idiotic statements regarding safety be allowed to live.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19772552
> 
> 
> - but I'm aware you've discussed these issues with westom in other threads, in multiple forums.



Now your really making things up.


There is no such thing as a _*discussion*_ with wes-dude. Given facts, he ignores them. Given technical questions, he never answers them. All he does is cut and paste and denigrate....but, our discussion is not about him. It is about surge supression and engineering facts.


So as I said, ask away, I'll be happy to answer.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19772552
> 
> 
> Maybe you're just frustrated.



With what? Him? As I've stated, he is comic relief..and entertainment which allows actual engineers to post actual knowledge that others will read. Without him, this thread would be boring.


You? Nah. Your slant is also entertaining. It appears that your schtick is to use conspiracy theories to denigrate others by fabricating ulterior motives. Fun to read. but frustrating???pfffft. Perhaps if I were part of a conspiracy, I'd be frustrated..but let's face it...your posting has allowed me to provide technical content that would otherwise be rather boring..that is a good thing..



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19772552
> 
> 
> What rating would you suggest for a whole-house SPD, if not 50 kA or higher?



The big guys like eaton range from 30 to 60 kA devices for residential. Larger is always better.. Eaton (IIRC) has a great website with lots of clear content put into laymen terms, and they detail such things like using end of branch devices in cascade coordination with a whole house unit. If you need a link, I could google, or perhaps you could.


The biggest issue I see is the use of single port vs multiport end of branch spd's..there is lots of confusion out there on that, and wes-dude is one of the most confused in that regard..just look at his mis-quotes and mis-interpretation of Martzloff.


Cheers, John


oh, almost forgot...


No, I don't know Mr McCook personally, professioinally, nada....case you were wondering...







(I know if I do not deny it, you will continue the harrassment..


----------



## David Haddad

Folks, now that we have established that jneutron does not know Mr. McCook, nor the president of the United States







, let's move this thread to more productive discussions. Even if he did know Mr. McCook, it would not be relevant, so let's please stick to discussing surge protection.


For others, I've started to follow this thread and now have the gist of it, I know that fighting misinformation can be frustrating, but moving forward in this thread if you feel that misinformation is being purposely posted or that someone has a hidden agenda please resist the urge to engage in personal insults, instead refute the post, or report it.


Thanks


----------



## Gizmologist

There seems to be an inordinate fear of a direct lightning strike on someone's home, possibly destroying the electronic entertainment system components. Out of this concern, claims have been made as to the survivability of a small man-made device sold for a few bucks.


In my personal experience in Texas over 30 years(land of many major Tstorms) lightning RARELY strikes a house which provides a poor ground path as opposed to the nearby trees which are split into several pieces and set afire.


Depending on the proximity of the tree and the soil condition, the charge can be diverted right to to grounding assembly of the home thereby negating any benefit of the "protection" system whatever technology is used.


Given the pages of claims concerning the rare direct hit in a lightning storm and all the defensive plans made, are the same concerns made to the same extent for the much more frequent tornadoes?


It seems apparent that this uber cautionary diatribe can achieve nothing that nature cannot easily overcome.


If you want to make G*d laugh, tell him your plans.


----------



## oppopioneer

jneutron and everyone else, which brands and models do you recommend for Whole House Surge protection that have a proven track record of success and are well credible and back up all their claims with numbers and give all their test results from UL 3rd Edition?


I was told earlier a Eaton Innovative Technology XT series is very good, but I contacted Eaton and a customer rep told me those are mostly for industrial buildings and commercial and might run into insurance problems and inspection issues if used on residential homes. He recommended their residential units from Cutler-Hammer.


----------



## Colm

westom has already given your the names of reliable manufacturers. Anything with a 50kA or higher surge current rating should last you tens of years. Best would be one with a UL 1449 3rd Ed. In rating of 20kA. For that matter, a plug-on unit from the manufacturer of your panel, Siemens/Murray, should do the job although it is probably rated about 40kA and probably has a lower In rating because of the size of MOVs used that can be fit inside a molded breaker.


Weren't you going to go with a Eaton/Cutler Hammer CHSPUltra? That would be a good unit.


You can check UL listed devices here If the device is listed by another NRTL, getting information may be more difficult. Search for the folder using the company name and "surge-protective devices".


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19778813
> 
> 
> westom has already given your the names of reliable manufacturers. Anything with a 50kA or higher surge current rating should last you tens of years. Best would be one with a UL 1449 3rd Ed. In rating of 20kA. For that matter, a plug-on unit from the manufacturer of your panel, Siemens/Murray, should do the job although it is probably rated about 40kA and probably has a lower In rating because of the size of MOVs used that can be fit inside a molded breaker.
> 
> 
> Weren't you going to go with a Eaton/Cutler Hammer CHSPUltra? That would be a good unit.
> 
> 
> You can check UL listed devices here If the device is listed by another NRTL, getting information may be more difficult. Search for the folder using the company name and "surge-protective devices".



I'm searching around, what is the surge current rating of the latest Cutler-Hammer CHSPUltra? I think I found a older unit online from years past and was wondering if they updated their line?


----------



## Colm

Eaton rates CHSPUltra at rated 75kA maximum surge current L-N/L-G. The UL 1449 3rd ed. In is 20kA, the maximum the manufacturer can request UL to test for. IIRC it has a 400V clamping voltage. It has a 600V voltage protection rating, which is a more realistic rating which reflects performance under maximum surge current and realistic cable length.


----------



## Neurorad

OK. I think I have this clear now.


Direct hits are rare, and nothing protects against them.


A whole-house SPD, adequately rated, provides some protection against nearby hits.


What's the benefit of the point-of-use surge 'protection' devices, e.g. SurgeX? Are they also providing protection against nearby lightning strikes, or is it marketing hype? That is, is there much benefit to 'cascading suppression'?


Edit - oppopioneer, I believe the new Eaton resi SPD that you're looking for is called the CHSPT1Ultra, not sure if it's available yet, google it for the Eaton pdf link (Nov 2010 Surge catalog). Or, might be the CHSPT2Ultra. Separate UL listings for each, unsure how they are different.


edit #2 - I think you want the CHSPT2Ultra


----------



## Colm

No wonder there are so many CHSPUltras on eBay...


CHSPT2Ultra is a Type 2 device that appears to be the latest version of the old CHSPUltra. Interestingly enough, the maximum surge current numbers from Eaton are lower on the new one. But it still meets the basic requirements. Type 2 device connects through a double-pole breaker in the panel. It also depends on the main breaker or main fuse to function safely in case of high fault current.


CHSPT1Ultra is a Type 1 device that appears to be a a CHSPUltra repackaged with the necessarily beefier over-current protection (higher SCCR) required when you don't have a main breaker or main fuse between the service drop and the device. Type 1 devices don't require a separate breaker because they can safely take themselves out of the circuit at full available fault current.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19780277
> 
> 
> What's the benefit of the point-of-use surge 'protection' devices, e.g. SurgeX? Are they also providing protection against nearby lightning strikes, or is it marketing hype? That is, is there much benefit to 'cascading suppression'?



That is the $64,000 question.


Cascaded protection has been recommended for a long time. It is a good idea in concept. Device at service entrance takes the brunt of the big biggest hits. Clamping voltage is chosen so that there is little chance of the MOV conducting in a over-voltage situation. Down stream devices with lower clamping voltage finish the job protecting sensitive solid state equipment. Problem is if the down stream device clamping voltage is sufficiently lower than the service entrance device, it functions before the service entrance device and does much or all of the work. Martzloff wrote of the problem of coordination. You can find his papers on the NIST site.


I saw an FAA document on the design of air traffic control facilities that required that down stream devices have successively higher clamping voltages.


Assume that the service entrance device reduces the voltage to 600V max. According to Marzloff almost all electronic devices are inherently protected to 600-800V. Why would we need down stream devices? The most commonly touted reason is that there are devices in the building that generated damaging surges. IMHO the danger in most homes is highly over-rated. The primary sources of damaging surges are external. Lots of internal devices generate transients that could be described as surges. The question is are they capable of damaging other equipment. Worst culprits are generally things with motors. Install a whole house surge protective device and if the offending device is on a separate branch circuit from the sensitive gear you have the same protection as from external events. In my house, the worst offender would be the air conditioning compressor. But it is on its own circuit. Then there are kitchen and laundry appliances. Again, on a different circuit. But I am not sure even that is necessary. How do all the modern appliances with microprocessors in them survive? How did my gear survive all those years before I learned about surge suppression?


Before I installed a whole-house device, the only problem I had was that dimmers and incandescent lamps did not last as long as they should have. Both the triacs in the dimmers and incandescent lamps fail around 1500V according to Martzloff's research. So, one could say that I was getting surges of at least 1500V. Nothing else was failing. Only very basic devices with little or no inherent protection. Now that I have a whole-house device even those don't fail prematurely.



That leaves nearby lightning strikes that can induce a voltage on the house wiring. Point-of-use devices may be the only way to protect against such surges. I am not sure how well that will work. Not an issue where I live. I can remember only a single lightning strike in over 40 years where I heard the boom and saw the flash essentially at the same time. Insurance covers that risk. I suspect if my gear is damage in that way I will be concerned with much bigger problems.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19780531
> 
> 
> No wonder there are so many CHSPUltras on eBay...
> 
> 
> CHSPT2Ultra is a Type 2 device that appears to be the latest version of the old CHSPUltra. Interestingly enough, the maximum surge current numbers from Eaton are lower on the new one. But it still meets the basic requirements.
> 
> 
> CHSPT1Ultra is a Type 1 device that appears to be a a CHSPUltra repackaged with the necessarily beefier over-current protection (higher SCCR) required when you don't have a main breaker or main fuse between the service drop and the device.



So which one would be best to buy?


I really like the Eaton Innovative Technology XT Series...


Steve Bruzonsky posted his XT Series he has for his house:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=976887&page=4


----------



## Colm

Once you have a device that can handle 50kA surge current (L-N, L-G) you have a device that should last decades. The voltage protection rating of the CHSPUltra, 600V is about as good as it gets under UL 1449 3rd ed. testing. So is the In of 20kA. It is a fine device.


The best device IMHO would be the one that meets requirements at the cheapest installed cost, be it CHSPUltra or another product from a reputable manufacturer. There is very little difference in the technology between them. Any significant differences will show up in the numbers from the UL testing.


If you want to go with a device that will handle more surge current, it will last even longer. It may or may not make economic sense.


CHSPUltra has lower voltage protection rating than the Innovative Technology XT series. Innovative Technology also has residential products that appear to be identical to the CHSP line.


----------



## David Haddad

If I were to use an audiophile power cord on one of these surge protectors, would that make the surge more effective, or less effective? Would the surge sound better?


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *David Haddad* /forum/post/19780905
> 
> 
> If I were to use an audiophile power cord on one of these surge protectors, would that make the surge more effective, or less effective? Would the surge sound better?



Have I got a cable for you! How much money do you have?


Actually, the length and geometry of the cable used to connect a whole-house device to the panel can affect the voltage protection rating.


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19780767
> 
> 
> Problem is if the down stream device clamping voltage is sufficiently lower than the service entrance device, it functions before the service entrance device and does much or all of the work. Martzloff wrote of the problem of coordination. You can find his papers on the NIST site.



Over the years, Martzloff has changed his opinion from cascading good to cascading bad, I believe he now thinks good..


His primary "bad" thinking was because of the possibility of having a gas discharge tube at the service entrance cascaded with an MOV... Under these conditions, the MOV would prevent the tube from ionizing ever..until the MOV fails short and it's breaker clears the line. Unfortunately, breakers do still take some time to clear magnetically, the MOV must not lose containment before the clearing.


Running the end of branch (EOB) 30 feet or so from the panel spd guarantees the EOB does most of the work, but when the line current IR drop exceeds 100 volts or so, the main panel clamps that current. Essentially, the cascade guarantees an exceptionally low current peak at the EOB. So, the EOB is seeing peaks of 100's of amps levels, which is trivial, and the service panel unit rarely clamps. Best of both worlds.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19780767
> 
> 
> I saw an FAA document on the design of air traffic control facilities that required that down stream devices have successively higher clamping voltages.



It gives a higher MTBF to the overall system, but requires more robust EOB equipment. It also gives one point of failure for excessive conditions.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19780767
> 
> 
> Assume that the service entrance device reduces the voltage to 600V max. According to Marzloff almost all electronic devices are inherently protected to 600-800V.



Back in '81, the semi manufacturers (myself in that bunch) were using 800 volts as a target for line operation silicon. Since then, it may have gone up.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19780767
> 
> 
> But I am not sure even that is necessary. How do all the modern appliances with microprocessors in them survive? How did my gear survive all those years before I learned about surge suppression?



Typical SMPS units have a diode or bridge directly connected to the line. If that silicon's BVR is exceeded, it is toast. The robustness of a 90 mil diameter silicon chip to avalanch reverse breakdown current is not high at all. For example, a kilojoule BVR dissipation at 1000 volts will destroy most 3 ampere diodes. 1000 volt diodes are not that expensive anymore.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19780767
> 
> 
> Before I installed a whole-house device, the only problem I had was that dimmers and incandescent lamps did not last as long as they should have. Both the triacs in the dimmers and incandescent lamps fail around 1500V according to Martzloff's research. So, one could say that I was getting surges of at least 1500V. Nothing else was failing. Only very basic devices with little or no inherent protection. Now that I have a whole-house device even those don't fail prematurely.



Earlier triacs were certainly less robust, but yes, they do not like fast transients at all. In general, a silicon device will not avalanche across it's bulk where it would absorb lots of energy, but in a very small localized area at the edge of the device where the energy is concentrated. Even if it doesn't avalanche, the dv/dt is capable of turning on a small part of the triac, which can also destroy the device..


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19780767
> 
> 
> That leaves nearby lightning strikes that can induce a voltage on the house wiring. Point-of-use devices may be the only way to protect against such surges.



Agreed. But also make sure that the EOB device is multiport.


Cheers, John


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jneutron* /forum/post/19782306
> 
> 
> But also make sure that the EOB device is multiport.



Good point. I was wondering what the down side of series mode devices are, besides cost and the fact that they are limited to 20A or so. Now that I think about it, it seems that if you want protection from induced surges from nearby strikes that would rule out series mode devices like SurgeX because you need protection for all the ports (antenna, cable, satellite, ethernet, etc.) at the device. All the series mode devices seem to rely on protection of these cables where they enter the building. If you live somewhere like I do, induced surges from lightning isn't a significant threat. But if you live somewhere nearby strikes are a significant threat, it seems that a series mode device may not be the best way to go.


----------



## oppopioneer

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Colm* 
But if you live somewhere nearby strikes are a significant threat, it seems that a series mode device may not be the best way to go.
The point of most of this thread is that mov devices are best at the service entrance or breaker box and Series Mode is best at downstream plug-in devices.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19786231
> 
> 
> The point of most of this thread is that mov devices are best at the service entrance or breaker box and Series Mode is best at downstream plug-in devices.



Nonsense. It is just the point of series mode aficionados like you. Unlike you, I have no bias either way. I just want effective protection at the best price. I will buy what is appropriate. Yes, series mode devices do not induce surges on the equipment grounding conductor, and apparently can achieve lower let through voltages (we'll see for sure when the UL 1449 3rd Ed. numbers are available). There may be applications where series mode devices provide an advantage. But I have yet to seen convincing evidence in this thread of the necessity of using series mode devices point-of-use devices over MOV-based point-of-use devices in the typical AV system assuming the later are used appropriately (e.g. multi-port devices for connected equipment) and considering the inherent ability of most devices to withstand moderate surges. For that matter, I have yet to see convincing evidence of the need for point-of-use devices of either technology if you have a decent whole-house system and the usual distribution of loads on the various branch circuits, at least where I am located.


As to the single line of my previous post you quoted out of context, you obviously just don't get it. What can I say? There are scenarios where a series mode device like the current SurgeX devices will provide inferior protection to a multi-port MOV based device simply because it only protects the AC port. Whether this is important or not depends on your environment. Where I am located, it is not an issue if I have a whole-house system.


Let me use an analogy. A Lamborgini by most measures is a better car than a Fiat. Both will get me to work. If all I need is a way to get to work is a Fiat, why should I buy a Lamborghini? Likewise, assume that series mode protection is superior to MOV-based protection, and both will give me adequate protection if used appropriately, why should I buy series mode protection?


----------



## Outlaw30

I have several Furmans and a SurgeX flatpack. All very good surge protectors. I'm thinking of purchasing a Furman or SurgeX UPS for my front projector. Their UPSs do everything from battery back up, trim/boost, very robust surge protection, and high quality emi/rfi filtering all in one package. Its tough to decide between the two brands.


----------



## David Haddad

Posts deleted. One of them was long and had several good points but if you can't state your position without the insults it's going to get deleted as I don't have the time to go through and edit them out line by line. Again, please state your position and refrain from personal insults.


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *David Haddad* /forum/post/19790316
> 
> 
> Posts deleted. One of them was long and had several good points but if you can't state your position without the insults it's going to get deleted as I don't have the time to go through and edit them out line by line. Again, please state your position and refrain from personal insults.



Sorry about that, that was my post.


Colm, some suggestions for you, you need to back up your claims for once with evidence and numbers with your own test results on the advantages and disadvantages of MOV's versus Series Mode for downstream plug-in protection because you and a couple others have made many claims without backing them up with actual evidence.


You and a few others have had years as a member of this website to purchase a MOV device (APC/Monster/Panamax/Triplite) style unit and a SurgeX and compare them and do your own experiments and come back here with the results and share them with us, but instead you demand we do all the work and give you all these inside info secret memo's from deep inside the company's vault that we don't have access to. Time for you and the other skeptics to start doing your own fair share of tests and back up your claims and put to rest any suspicions.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19792571
> 
> 
> Colm...you need to back up your claims for once with evidence and numbers with your own test results on the advantages and disadvantages of MOV's versus Series Mode for downstream plug-in protection



More nonsense.


I have said I assume that series mode devices do everything thing that they claim. The only disadvantages for series mode devices I have mentioned are the cost, the fact that they are only available for 20As or less, and that they don't protect against surges originating on ports other than the AC, which could be a problem under very specific circumstances. The only advantage for MOV based devices I have mentioned is cost. And if MOV based devices can do an adequate job at a lower price, then that is the best solution IMHO.


I only have two questions about series mode technology that concern the two primary advantages claimed for series mode devices.


Why do I need zero, or even close to zero, let through voltage if most devices are inherently protected to 600-800V? My source for those numbers is one of Martzloff's papers on the NIST site. You can find it easily if you care to. It is easy to vet his credentials, too, if you care.


Why do I need a device that does not shunt surges to the equipment grounding conductor if I use a multi-port MOV based device that protects my equipment from the surge generated on the equipment grounding conductor? Martzloff recommends using multi-port devices, which he calls surge reference equalizers, for this purpose in another one of his papers on the NIST site. You can find that one easily, too, if you care to.


I have done my research. It seems to me that you would be well served to do the same instead of relying on statements from salesmen.


As for demanding test results to prove claims, I could ask the same of you. But my questions aren't about which technology provides the lowest let through voltage.


I will repeat my question. Assume series mode is everything it is claimed to be. Why should I use it if MOV based devices properly used will do the job for less money?


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19792571
> 
> 
> ...you demand we do all the work and give you all these inside info secret memo's from deep inside the company's vault that we don't have access to.



Now you are just being ridiculous. I never did any such thing.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Outlaw30* /forum/post/19789680
> 
> 
> Its tough to decide between the two brands.



Both seem to have a reputation among their users for good quality. All else being the same, I would go with the least expensive option that gives you what you want. Wasn't there some claim by SurgeX that Furman products weren't really series mode at one point? How did that come out?


----------



## Colm

Anybody know why 330V was chosen as the minimum rating for SVR under UL 1449 2nd Ed. and the VPR under UL 1499 3rd Ed.?


----------



## oppopioneer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19792791
> 
> 
> I will repeat my question. Assume series mode is everything it is claimed to be. Why should I use it if MOV based devices properly used will do the job for less money?



Why don't you prove mov's are equal at protecting against surges through the AV as Series Mode is? Buy a mov based device and a Series Mode devise and send any surge of your choose through the machine, come back with to us with the results.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19793927
> 
> 
> Why don't you prove mov's are equal at protecting against surges through the AV as Series Mode is? Buy a mov based device and a Series Mode devise and send any surge of your choose through the machine, come back with to us with the results.



Asked and answered. Would you please stop repeating yourself?


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19793922
> 
> 
> And you can contact Michael McCook and SurgeX who can answer all your questions. Have you called them yet?



Asked and answered. Will you please stop repeating yourself?


----------



## David Haddad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oppopioneer* /forum/post/19793927
> 
> 
> Why don't you prove mov's are equal at protecting against surges through the AV as Series Mode is? Buy a mov based device and a Series Mode devise and send any surge of your choose through the machine, come back with to us with the results.



Not a reasonable request, one largely has to rely on others research in this area. I also doubt he's going to be crash testing cars before he buys one







.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *David Haddad* /forum/post/19793971
> 
> 
> I also doubt he's going to be crash testing cars before he buys one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



No, but I have crashed tested them after buying...


----------



## David Haddad

Two users now banned from thread. Carry on.


----------



## Colm

So, anybody know why 330V was chosen as the minimum rating for SVR under UL 1449 2nd Ed. and the VPR under UL 1499 3rd Ed.?


----------



## Outlaw30




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19793288
> 
> 
> Both seem to have a reputation among their users for good quality. All else being the same, I would go with the least expensive option that gives you what you want. Wasn't there some claim by SurgeX that Furman products weren't really series mode at one point? How did that come out?



A member here recently spoke to a Furman engineer about that same question. The engineer stated that many Furman models do have a series mode. But, have MOVs before and after the series mode. He stated the MOVs are very robust and almost never go even after several nasty surges.


----------



## Neurorad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19794006
> 
> 
> So, anybody know why 330V was chosen as the minimum rating for SVR under UL 1449 2nd Ed. and the VPR under UL 1499 3rd Ed.?



I have a hunch that 330 is the expected - or listed - rating at which most devices will fail, without any additional 'protection'.


Quick search fail.


Lots of heated forum discussion about surges, everywhere - many different forums. Electrical, computer, engineering, many more.


David Haddad, sorry to annoy you.


----------



## Neurorad

Found this bit on voltage tolerances

http://community.myelectrical.com/wi...tolerance.aspx 


I think most currently available AC-DC convertors incorporated into electronics accomodate a very wide range of inputs.


----------



## jneutron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19808713
> 
> 
> Found this bit on voltage tolerances
> 
> http://community.myelectrical.com/wi...tolerance.aspx
> 
> 
> I think most currently available AC-DC convertors incorporated into electronics accomodate a very wide range of inputs.



The standard converters cover at least 80 volts for 120 sag, and 240 for high level, allowing operation in many countries without a transformer.


Very nice link. Parallel type MOV protection absolutely cannot be allowed to conduct a 120% line level that lasts half a second, that would exceed it's surviveability if it clamped such line input. So 204 volts the bare minimum MOV to meet the 120%.


I found a 208 page anthology written in 2002 by Hahn and Martzloff, first published in IEEE 31 CP 67-430. It is an accumulation of papers from 1976 to 2002.


The last article discusses the cascade coordination between a 130 volt MOV at end of branch with a 150 volt MOV at the service panel. Rather odd numbers for 120 volt RMS circuits, as peak is 170 volts. I suspect that they are actually discussing MOV's with that voltage as the let through. That would make them 300 volt units and 320 volt units. Not 330 as per 1449. But what really peaked my interest is the cascade coordination tables they presented which showed the energy dissipation tradeoff between the 150 panel mount and the end of branch 130 volt unit. They modelled .1 meter, 1 meter, and 10 meter lengths of wire between the panel and the end of branch. I suspect that the 10 meter number is what was carried into NEC.


Of interest is the 1991 article by Martzloff..""diverting surges to ground: Expectations vs reality.

Reprinted from Proceedings, Open Forum on Surge Protection Application, NISTIR-4654, August 1991



The opening statment::


""A misconception is sometimes encountered, that surges can be eliminated by sending them on a one-way trip to "ground" in a manner similar to leftovers that disappear in the kitchen sink disposall, never to be seen again. Unfortunately, electricity travels along closed loops, and no special SPD configuration nor amount of "grounding"– be-it ‘dedicated’, ‘isolated’, ‘separated’, ‘delayed’, or otherwise – can dispose of unwanted electrons.""


Cheers, John


----------



## Neurorad

Interestingly, Mr. Martzloff offers his IEEE email address on his website, 'For Questions'.


I found this quote from Martzloff from 1995, a draft of an un-published 'working document':



> Quote:
> The fact of the matter is that nowadays, most electronic appliances have an inherent immunity level of at least 600 V to 800 V, so that the clamping voltages of 330 V widely offered by TVSS manufacturers are really not necessary. Objective assessment of the situation leads to the conclusion that the 330 V clamping level, promoted by a few manufacturers, was encouraged by the promulgation of UL Std 1449, showing that voltage as the lowest in a series of possible clamping voltages for 120 V circuits.


 http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/sp...es/Enduser.pdf 


This doc is linked from Martzloff's website ' Anthology '.


----------



## Colm

Great research.


Now that I think about it, it should have been obvious to me. A MOV with a 130V maximum continuous voltage rating has a maximum clamping voltage right around 330V, some a little less, some a little more. UL 1449 and the corresponding IEEE standards are MOV-centric. The minimum rating of 330V has nothing to do with what equipment can withstand, just the lowest practical value achievable using MOVs.


Yes, the earth ground doesn't magically make the surge go away. But a low impedance ground is still needed for an effective return path. The surge is going to find the easiest way home.


It seems that surge protection is a very poorly understood field, even among EEs, and full of hype from manufacturers trying to sell you something. Martzloff spent nearly his entire professional life researching it, and still doesn't have all the answers. IEEE says they don't have all the answers either in their standards. I am all for a spirited discussion of the topic, including all the technologies. What I don't like is aficionados of one technology or the other who attempt to squelch that discussion.


I think I understand MOV based devices reasonably well. I would like to know more about series mode technology. But it is kind of hard to wade through all the BS. Some folks say nothing else will do, and others say it is only a glorified noise filter. There seems to be no useful, independent information on it, just what the manufacturers tout and the opinions of aficionados of one technology or the other. The situation isn't helped any by the fact that there are different approaches to series mode protection, and approaches that combine series mode and MOVs.


----------



## Colm

I was looking at pictures of the insides of a couple of series mode devices, one SurgeX and one Furman. One thing that I noticed is that they contain electrolytic capacitors. Electrolytics are used primarily to get a large capacitance in a small space, or at low cost. The former is likely the driving factor for series mode devices. The downside of electrolytics is that they degrade over time. The capacitance changes and the ESR increases. In other words, they have a limited useful lifetime, just like MOVs. They can also fail catastrophically, just like MOVs. But neither is a big deal, MOVs or capacitors, properly selected and applied, will last a long time, say a decade or more, just not forever.


As a MOV degrades the clamping voltage goes down, in effect giving "better" protection until the clamping voltage gets so low that the MOV is conducting too much and either fails or is taken out of the circuit by a fuse or breaker. What happens in a series more device as the electrolytic capacitor degrades?


----------



## leviattann69

I hope I dont banned from this thread for asking dumb questions but I cant seem to understand how things work....Browsing through the audiogon page, I came across this: http://www.mitcables.com/available-i...lex-super.html My question is, I already have my gear connected to a panamax power conditioner, will adding something like this benefit at all or improve my system or will it basically be a waste of time/money?


----------



## Colm

Asking basic questions won't get you banned from this thread or any other. That device appears to be a single mode (L-N) MOV based surge protective device combined with a line filter. I don't think it will be of benefit to you if you already have a Panamax power conditioner. You should already have equivalent or better functionality in it.


FWIW this is a surge protection thread. You might get more useful feedback in a power conditioning thread.


----------



## leviattann69




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/19810587
> 
> 
> Asking basic questions won't get you banned from this thread or any other. That device appears to be a single mode (L-N) MOV based surge protective device combined with a line filter. I don't think it will be of benefit to you if you already have a Panamax power conditioner. You should already have equivalent or better functionality in it.



Thank you for the explanation


----------



## Power Factor

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Outlaw30* 
A member here recently spoke to a Furman engineer about that same question. The engineer stated that many Furman models do have a series mode. But, have MOVs before and after the series mode. He stated the MOVs are very robust and almost never go even after several nasty surges.
Did they get an EE on staff?



'Series Mode' is a Trademark property of SurgeX and was approved by the U.S. PTO by way of our industry related documentation and patents that it: "Provides an inductor system as the first means of protection." IEEE C62.41 was the primary guideline for the further development of the Harford-Benton-McCook patents relating to SurgeX products.



A branch circuit SPD using an MOV in front of, in back of or sideways of, a small ferrite core series inductor, labeled as 'series something', is in my opinion, a marketing persuasion by our competitors intended to ride on our back and confuse you, and the only way to promote a product 'looking like ours' without violating our patents. Are you a Switch or a Filter?



An MOV is a semiconductor switch. Switches will wear out and can suddenly fail when stressed. The monitoring of these switching devices over time as 'functional' is tedious and a guessing game at best. A filter properly designed for its application will not wear out and will only fail if misapplied. Think about your passive LC subwoofer crossovers...when will it wear out?...perhaps when you wire it up to 440V just for fun?...or when you listen to too much music?


I can hear Colm talking about electrolytics now... 



By the way, John is my brother...say Hi to Mom for me Bro ;-)



Cheers,


Michael McCook

SurgeX International

Office: (+1)610-847-4956

Direct: (+1)267-251-6119

Fax: (+1)610-847-4955
[email protected] 

Skype: michael.mccook
www.SurgeXInternational.com


----------



## Power Factor

What happens in a series more device as the electrolytic capacitor degrades?[/quote]


Since the electrolytics in our circuits float at the peak of the power wave and they are behind our inductor syatem, they don't get stressed like electrolytics utilized in power supplies, etc. We use high grade caps and the lifetime is basically the 'shelf life'. Since SurgeX has 'zero' let-through when new, you might have a very slight increase 20 years from now which is of no consequence to the integrity of the device.


My Harman Kardon Citation Eighteen system shows no sign of wrinkles or dry skin after 30 years....and it's used for BGM in the house every day. Of course it's plugged into a SurgeX.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Power Factor* /forum/post/19812541
> 
> 
> I can hear Colm talking about electrolytics now...



Really? You must be prescient. 


I like it when you actually post something that can be discussed in this thread. You could be a real help in understanding series mode technology.


Surely you don't believe that electrolytic capacitors do not degrade over time. If so, can you comment on this ?


Your choice of a passive LC speaker crossover is a good example of what happens with electrolytics. A two-way or three-way crossover might be a better example than a subwoofer crossover, though. The electrolytics in them do degrade over time, usually decades. The parameters can change enough over time that they affect the sound or just fail. I have resurrected numerous old crossovers, TVs, aircraft avionics, etc. where the only failed part was one or more electrolytic capacitors. The electrolytics in the avionics didn't last nearly as long as the ones in the speakers because of the harsher conditions they were exposed to (aircraft parked on a ramp year round).


As I said previously, the fact that electrolytics degrade over time is not a significant issue. I agree with you that properly selected and applied, electrolytic capacitors will have a long service life. Your company can afford to warrant your equipment for 10 years because of that. Properly selected and applied MOVs can have a long service life, too. That is why at least some manufacturers of MOV based devices can afford to warrant at least some of their devices for 10 years. Neither technology, however, will last forever.


I am curious, however, about what happens as the electrolytic capacitors in series mode devices age. My guess is that the electrolytics are chosen so that they have a high probability of adequately handling those 6000V, 3000A surges for at least 10 years. Care to explain it to a layman? Does the let through voltage increase? Why or why not? Does the size of the surge that can be handled decrease? Why or why not?


I assume that series mode technology does what you claim it does, that is it provides a lower let through voltage (zero of close to zero excursion from nominal in the latest versions) and doesn't create a surge on the equipment grounding conductor. My only question is why should I care if less expensive MOV based devices, properly selected and applied, will give me adequate protection. Based on what I have read by Martzloff, as mentioned above, they will. Is he wrong? Did I misunderstand him? If so, please explain.


As I stated long ago, I don't doubt that there are applications where series mode is the way to go. I would really like to know what were the driving factors for engineering savy customers to select SurgeX products for particular applications. I can imagine one might be that in mission critical applications that SurgeX might be chosen over other devices simply because the cost of a failure might be so great that even a small improvement in reliability would be worth the cost. Care to give us any others?


It is informative to hear what you have to say about the difference between Furman and SurgeX. You certainly need to protect your trademarks. You don't want them to wind up like corn flakes or refrigerator. It did seem to me that the series section of the Furman product was less robust than the SurgeX product. And the necessity of the MOVs did seem questionable with a series device. Care to elaborate?


Why not answer some questions and educate us? We are really not out to get you. Well, at least I am not... Who knows, you might get some customers out of it.


----------



## NY613

after reading through some of these long post.... head started spinning lol...

I'm building my home theater system, and i need a good surge protector/power conditioner, if anybody can please suggest something.


I've been looking at panamax, surgeX, monster & others... i dunno what else is good anymore, any help would be great


----------



## Neurorad

I've come to the conslusion that a surge protection device at the house service entrance is step #1.


After that, it's mostly for looks, but could provide a slight benefit.


----------



## Colm

+1


Note that means not just AC, but all ports, including TV, cable, satellite, telephone, etc.


----------



## SPreston2001

What do you guys think of this surge protector by Belkin? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812107196 I would probably be using 11 of the 12 outlets on the protector for my HTPC. After reading some of these post I just want to do everything possible to prevent disaster. Should I install a GFCI outlet at the wall as well? Thanks.


----------



## AV Doogie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SPreston2001* /forum/post/19991767
> 
> 
> What do you guys think of this surge protector by Belkin? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812107196 I would probably be using 11 of the 12 outlets on the protector for my HTPC. After reading some of these post I just want to do everything possible to prevent disaster. Should I install a GFCI outlet at the wall as well? Thanks.



Look for a unit that has the UL 1449 rating as a minimum. At least the unit has passed the fundamental tests for safety with standard waveforms.


BTW...I don't see the rating on this unit.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Doogie* /forum/post/19994728
> 
> 
> BTW...I don't see the rating on this unit.



It is listed on the UL site.


----------



## PMerriwetherIII

Is this a decent model?

http://www.amazon.com/APC-Outlet-252...8428529&sr=8-2 


I've been looking for something decent for my apartment that isn't too pricey that will also indicate if the outlets are safe to use.


If anyone has any superior suggestions please let me know.


I used to swear by the Surgemaster series, but the new Belkin models are horrible (minimum of 400 clamping voltage and no UL listing on most).


----------



## Colm

Why do you think 400V is horrible?


If you search the UL database, I think you will find your favorite Belkin product is listed.


----------



## PMerriwetherIII

Well Belkin's older models featured a clamping voltage of 330 and the cheap APC units offer even less (according to their site).


Where is the UL database? I visited their site and had a bit of trouble finding a list of models.


----------



## Colm

UL database is here . Enter the company name and enter "surge protective-devices" for the keyword. If the company in question used a NRTL other than UL, the info won't be here.


400V is not a problem. Almost all equipment is inherently protected to 600-800V. No surge protective device has a UL-1449 rating of less than 330V. Under UL-1449 3rd edition, ratings may be higher than previously due to changes in how the devices are tested.


----------



## PMerriwetherIII

Cool thanks for that info...


What are your thoughts on that APC unit?


----------



## synergie

I really hate to jump in this warzone of a thread, but I'm really thinking of installing an Environmental Potentials EP2050. It was mentioned in another thread along time ago and the owner was participating as well.


I'd like to know what this big conglomerate of surge protection minds here think of it. The whole deal is that they "clamp and absorb" as opposed to shunt to ground. The link to their stuff is here: http://www.ep2000.com 


The patent, which I've read through, is number 7446436. From what I've gathered, and I'm no EE, the circuit is a MOV shunt into an RLC circuit basically. The L is a nanocystalline core type which seem to be made by a handful of manufacturers. The RLC basically oscillates until the surge is gone.


It sounds great in theory. Its between this and getting an Eaton IT PTE/PTX for me.


----------



## Neurorad

I'd get the Eaton IT product, installed at the service entrance.


If I had money left over, I'd consider the EP unit for a home theater or equipment rack subpanel, although it could also be located at the service entrance ('P.O.E.').


12.5 kA seems kind of small, for the EP device, to reduce damage from a nearby lightning strike.


----------



## Colm

The EP product seems to be a variation on the technology used in the series type devices, except it is totally parallel to the load. It doesn't have the claimed zero let through of the series type devices. It functions the same as any MOV based device in that respect. And its surge current rating is far less than even inexpensive whole-house MOV based devices. I see no advantage to the EP device if you are going to install it at the service entrance because the ground contamination issue doesn't exist there and the surge current rating is too low. Maybe it would be applicable as a type 3 device, with at least 20' of wiring between it and the service entrance.


----------



## synergie

Thanks for the input gents.


Would ground impedance be any sort of problem for any of these units? From just researching sources online, it seems like it could be as high as 5ohms. Would that put untold stress on the MOVs? There's tons of literature on these industrial rated units lasting for a very long time. I would hazard a guess that their grounds in an industrial setting are better than our residential ones.


----------



## Colm

If you read back in this thread, I think there is a post somewhere quoting Martzloff saying something like without an adequate ground even the best surge protective device is useless. Industrial grounds are often superior to residential grounds for a variety of reasons. Modern residential construction that uses a Ufer ground embedded in the foundation should be entirely adequate. Older construction that uses a driven rod may be less effective, but seem to be adequate if the grounding electrode and associated wiring are up to snuff.


NEC calls for impedance of less than 25 ohms. I have seen folks recommend much lower for surge protection. I suspect that the impedance seen by a surge with a fast rise time is much different than the impedance measured when testing a ground per NEC, though.


----------



## anarchoi

After reading a lot of posts on this thread from people who seems to be professional, it looks like the "standard surge protectors" are useless compared to something like SurgeX


So, why does Belkin has a warranty of $250,000 for connected equippement on its surge suppressor like Pure AV ? If they stand so much behind their products, i would expect that the surge protector can resist to almost anything...

http://www.belkin.com/au/p/P-F9A823-2M


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *anarchoi*  /t/1171818/surge-protector-recommendations/720#post_22899238
> 
> 
> After reading a lot of posts on this thread from people who seems to be professional, it looks like the "standard surge protectors" are useless compared to something like SurgeX


Well, then, I would say you don't understand the threat or the technology very well...Series mode devices like SurgeX claim certain advantages over MOV-based devices, which may or may not be important for a given application, but MOV-based devices certainly aren't useless.


Companies can offer extravagant connected equipment warranties because the odds of you collecting are very small.


----------



## whoaru99

Yup. Read the fine print of the actual warranty and what it takes to go through the claim process.


----------



## NickTheGreat

Has there ever been a documented case of anyone getting money from a surge protector company?


----------



## anarchoi




> Quote:
> Well, then, I would say you don't understand the threat or the technology very well...Series mode devices like SurgeX claim certain advantages over MOV-based devices, which may or may not be important for a given application, but MOV-based devices certainly aren't useless.


And what are those advantages ?


Is it really worth the difference of price in hundreds of dollars ?


Problem is that i also need at least 14 outlets and apparently daisy chaining on a SurgeX wouldn't be recommended...


----------



## Colm

SurgeX, and other manufacturers of series type devices, make three claims: their devices don't wear out like MOVs, they have zero or very low let through voltage, and they don't contaminate the equipment grounding conductor. Yes, MOVs degrade over time. The voltage that they turn on at will get lower and lower, until they are triggering on peaks of normal AC and self-destruct, blow a fuse, or trip a breaker. But a properly sized MOV will last tens of years. And for a point-of-use device, this is really easy to achieve because the biggest surge experience by such a device is only about 90J. Yes, ground contamination can occur with 3-mode MOV-based devices that have MOVs connected L-G and N-G in addition to L-N. They can actually create a surge on the equipment grounding conductor that wouldn't have been there otherwise. The issue can be avoided by using a single mode MOV-based device which does not shunt surges to ground. But even 3-mode MOV-based devices are not a problem if you understand what can happen and use the devices appropriately, or just plug all your gear into a single 3-mode device. So that leaves let through voltage. Most CE devices are inherently protected against surges of 600V or even more. MOV-based devices are capable of providing protection to lower level than that.


There are three down sides to series type devices: they cost more than MOV-based devices, they only protect against surges entering on the AC lines, and there isn't a whole-house product because the cost of such a device would be prohibitive.


So, the question for you to aswer for yourself is, are you willing to pay the extra price for the features of a series type device based on what you know.


----------



## anarchoi

Thanks for the infos,


So if i understand correctly i will not really get a better protection with a SurgeX, it will just last longer ?


Also, how do i know if the MOV is "proprely sized" ?


I'm a newbie and not very familiar with the tech terms.

Basically, i'm just looking for a decent surge protector with around 16 outlets... Trying to figure out the best thing to buy.

Any suggestions ?


----------



## Colm

In some sense you get better protection with SurgeX. The question is: do you need that protection? It is kind of like what kind of car you need to get to work. A Fiat and a Ferrari will both get you there. Most of the time the Fiat is adequate, but there may be circumstaces where you need the Ferrari.


Considering that the maximum surge a point-of-use surge protective device is likely to see is around 90J, any device with a rating of a couple thousand joules is likely to last a very long time.


----------



## silentninja

Hi new poster, figured I'd post here instead of creating a new thread. I just purchased a new hdtv, my 1st














, I've been using my crt philips since 03 thought it was time to get into the future







. So I bought a panasonic tc-p60u50, and since I'm bought the tv I wanted to make sure I have some type of proper protection for it. I did alot of reading concerning surge protectors and honestly feel overwhelmed. I know from reading that for secondary protection non-mov is the way to go.


So I looked around and came down to three surge suppressor 1.SurgeX SA966, 2. ZS 8R7.5W, 3. ZS 8R15W. So I wanted to see if I could get any opinion's on which one I should choose. For the most part I plan on running my 60in pana, my 750w custom desktop comp, my cable box, dvd player and a lamp, nothing more. Will any of the above be able to handle those with a problem?


Price wise I would like to go with the ZS 8R7.5W but zero surge says on their website that "7.5 amp capacity. Protects one typical computer system or applications with up to a 7.5 amp load." So I'm guessing I can't run both the panasonic and my comp from that?? Can the other two handle both my comp and tv? I live in socal so we don't have alot of lightning nor do we have many power spikes. Put I have had the rare spike that has fried older computers even with "surge protectors" so I want to protect my electronics. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Colm

If a 7.5A device won't hack it, the odds are an 8A device won't either. The 15A device should do you.


----------



## nmshah

Hello - We hardly get any lightening in southern California coastal area. However my house is near distribution lines and I hear "loud spikes" through my speakers from time to time. I am guessing these are due to electrical surges.


Given that we don't get lightening much, could I just do with Eaton CHSPT2 Max/Ultra or is it still advisable to invest in something more expensive like XT 40 at the point of entrance to the home?


Thanks in advance


----------



## SAM64




> Quote:
> I am guessing these are due to electrical surges.



bad guess?


----------



## 1jeffcat

I'm a moron when it comes to the "technical" differences with these things, but would this surge protector be sufficient as just a general surge protector for my parent's setup?
http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-TLP810NET-Protector-Outlet/dp/B00005T3Q2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_3 


I'm not really following the differences between all of them, but what I need...or in their case, what THEY need is something:

-inexpensive

-provides some level of protection

-has a coax hookup(is it needed?)


I realize this isn't some nice $300+ device, but being the newbie about it, the joule rating seemed decent, it's 15 amp(assuming that's better than 12A), and supposedly has some form of noise filtering....not sure if it is the same noise filtering they use in their Isobar series, but even if it does a little bit, that's a plus.


The setup they will be having after I hook it up all the way is:

-65" Vizio LED LCD 100ish watts?(not my choice







)

-Yamaha YHT-397 surround system at 500-600W

-The sub is active and plugged in separately

-Vizio blu-ray player

-Samsung digital cable box(Time Warner)

-Phono Pre-amp

-Turntable


Now, the other problem is that they have an older home with "Meh" wiring. If the lights are on, and you turn on a sweeper, the place just about goes dark when you turn the sweeper on, so that's one big concern about the surges. The other problem is that they have most of this plugged in right now into a 6-outlet power strip, then plugged into a 99 cent extension cord, using a cheater plug, that's ungrounded into an ungrounded outlet. I'm a moron on this stuff, but that throws red flags all over for me. I'm presuming I will just have to endure with a cheater plug, but is there any suggestions as to what would be best to ground the ground attachment on the cheater plug to in the house? I appreciate the info and help.


----------



## nmshah

Clearly I don't know much. I just want to protect my system. Can you point me in the right direction? I'd really appreciate it - thanks


----------



## Neurorad

Install a surge protection device at the service entrance, e.g. Eaton CHSPT2ULTRA.


If you have telephone and cable, buy the 3-pack, CHSPT23PACK.


After that, I suggest a Type 2 point-of-use SPD, e.g. Tripplite Isobar device.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-ISOBAR6ULTRA-Isobar-Protector/dp/B0000513US 


The electrician can help pick out the service entrance SPD for you, and buy it wholesale, at your local electric supply store.


Eaton has some good info on their website. Click 'Documentation'.

http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Electrical/ProductsandServices/Residential/SurgeProtection/CompleteHome/index.htm 
http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Electrical/ProductsandServices/PowerQualityandMonitoring/SurgeProtectiveDevices/LightCommercial/index.htm#tabs-2


----------



## nmshah

Thanks. I appreciate it..


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad*  /t/1171818/surge-protector-recommendations/750#post_23008759
> 
> 
> Install a surge protection device at the service entrance, e.g. Eaton CHSPT2ULTRA.
> 
> 
> If you have telephone and cable, buy the 3-pack, CHSPT23PACK.
> 
> 
> After that, I suggest a Type 2 point-of-use SPD, e.g. Tripplite Isobar device.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-ISOBAR6ULTRA-Isobar-Protector/dp/B0000513US
> 
> 
> The electrician can help pick out the service entrance SPD for you, and buy it wholesale, at your local electric supply store.
> 
> 
> Eaton has some good info on their website. Click 'Documentation'.
> 
> http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Electrical/ProductsandServices/Residential/SurgeProtection/CompleteHome/index.htm
> http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Electrical/ProductsandServices/PowerQualityandMonitoring/SurgeProtectiveDevices/LightCommercial/index.htm#tabs-2


----------



## 6SpeedTA95

Guys, it appears my belkin pf31 has taken a dump on me. The switched power is going off numerous times every week. About two weeks ago the entire surge protector was shut down. It wouldn't reset but after unplugging it for awhile it mysteriously powered back up. Since that time the switched power has been tripped off five times...almost everytime I use it. Weirdly the last three days it is working perfectly again.


But I think it may be time for a new protector.


Since we live in an area still being built I would like something with the ability to stabalize voltage.


I normally steer clear of monster products but do have a hookup and can get them basically half off retail.


However I am open to other suggestions and would like to spend $200-$250 less is good as long as it does the job.


----------



## whoaru99

^^^


Haven't looked for a while, but I think you're going to be hard pressed to find something (new, anyway) with real voltage regulation for that price range.


----------



## 6SpeedTA95

You could be right. What would you suggest in that price range then?


----------



## Neurorad

I would suggest nothing but an SPD (e.g. Tripplite Isobar) at the equipment, and a whole-house SPD. Your equipment is designed to withstand surges up to ~700V.


----------



## Neurorad

The whole-house surge protector uses the house ground, and it is located at the service entrance, where power comes into the house.


I don't know how to accurately measure the effectiveness of the whole-house ground.


I don't know if a ground is required for a series mode SPD, but it is required for MOV-based SPDs. Call SurgeX.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *darkphader*  /t/1171818/surge-protector-recommendations/750#post_23057325
> 
> 
> I'm in an older house and the outlets have no real ground. Some of them have a NEMA 5-15R receptacle but a tester shows an open ground. Is this of real concern to my AV and/or computer gear...


It is a safety and code issue. If there is no ground, you need to install either 2-prong receptacles or GFCI receptacles with the label "no ground present". The ground is intended to provide a low impedance path so that the breaker in the panel will trip on a fault condition.


> Quote:
> ...how can I verify there is an effective path to earth ground?


You can hire an electrician to test the grounding electrode resistance with a megger. Electrical code almost everywhere in USA requires max of 25 ohms. Over that and a second electrode is required.


FWIW surges do not magically disappear into ground. You want a low impedance ground to allow surges such as lightning to return by their normal path, which is the ground. Other surges will return via the electrical service.


> Quote:
> Does the open ground on my receptacles nullify the effectiveness of the whole house surge protector?


What you see at the receptacle is irrelevant to the function of a whole-house device. The quality of the ground at the service entrance is what is important.


> Quote:
> Does the open ground nullify the effectiveness of both MOV type and series mode surge protectors at point of use?


Won't affect a single mode surge protective device, either MOV or series mode. With a 3-mode MOV-based device, you will lose 2 of the modes. You will still have L-N protection, which is what the inventor of series mode protection recommends.


----------



## dboud


HI, I have question, I recently upgraded my system to a Sony 55' XBR 4K, a OPPO BDP-105, a sony str1058 receiver  and a Bose speaker and a HD satellite  box. I  also have 25kw whole 

   house generator w/ auto start. I am looking for a good surge protector and also clean up the the voltage.  I read about a brand called Panamax, would that be good or would I need

   something else. Thanks, answers are welcomed. DAVID.


----------



## btinindy

I recently ordered the furman pst-8d. You can read the marketing for yourself on their website, but the quality of construction is very good. I had some buzz in my compression drivers and after plugging everything into this unit that went away. I am sure it was a ground loop issue, that this may coincide with all being on the same ground, but it worked well. It also uses series protection which from what I understand is better than most.


I ordered a tripplite isobar, and while it was nice looking, I sent it back because in the instructions it says that in the event of a surge it would leave the equipment plugged into it unprotected!


I got mine from amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Furman-Advanced-Conditioning-Aluminum-Protection/dp/B0009GI7NC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387980297&sr=8-1&keywords=Furman+pst+8d 


Overall looking AT&T he ratings, etc. I came to the conclusion that it was hard to beat this unit for the price, and I know furman is a reputable company and I believe that they are now owned by panamax. In fact, I ended up buying three of these.


Good luck, and let us know what you come up with!


----------



## darkphader

I picked up a new SurgeX SX1120RT on eBay for around $150, added a T-Blade adapter about a year ago and everything has been fine. If you have NEMA 5-20 receptacles you wont need the adapter.


EDIT: just to add that I use one of my Oppo 105's USB connections to switch the SurgeX on/off remotely. Turn on the Oppo and power is applied to all of the other gear in the switched outlets.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *btinindy*  /t/1171818/surge-protector-recommendations/750#post_24116111
> 
> 
> It also uses series protection which from what I understand is better than most.


Well, it is another approach to surge protection. And the manufacturers claim certain technical advantages. That doesn't mean you cannot achieve adequate protection using MOV based devices.


> Quote:
> ... tripplite isobar...in the instructions it says that in the event of a surge it would leave the equipment plugged into it unprotected!


BS. The instructions say nothing like that. Yes, if the "Protected" light goes out, it means you have lost some or all of the protection. And yes, it continues to power your gear even after loss of protection. However, MOVs are not sacrificial devices. A properly sized MOV will not fail after a single surge and will continue to provide protection for many, many years. The amount of energy a surge can present to this type of device is inherently limited by the impedance of the wiring between the device and the panel, no more than about 90J. And the MOVs in the Isobar are capable of handling many times this energy.


----------



## btinindy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm*  /t/1171818/surge-protector-recommendations/750#post_24117191
> 
> 
> Well, it is another approach to surge protection. And the manufacturers claim certain technical advantages. That doesn't mean you cannot achieve adequate protection using MOV based devices.
> 
> 
> Ummm, yeah I never claimed you couldn't, but thanks for that.
> 
> 
> BS. The instructions say nothing like that. Yes, if the "Protected" light goes out, it means you have lost some or all of the protection. And yes, it continues to power your gear even after loss of protection. However, MOVs are not sacrificial devices. A properly sized MOV will not fail after a single surge and will continue to provide protection for many, many years. The amount of energy a surge can present to this type of device is inherently limited by the impedance of the wiring between the device and the panel, no more than about 90J. And the MOVs in the Isobar are capable of handling many times this energy.



BS to your BS. You should research before you respond. Manual link here:

http://www.tripplite.com/shared/techdoc/Owners-Manual/932919.pdf 


says at the top. That coupled with Tripplite's customer service, or lack there of when I had a problem, made it easy to send back. Luckily it was all through Amazon, so it was not problem.


----------



## Colm

OOH! Snappy reply!


Would you please quote where it says in the event of a surge it will leave the equipment plugged into it unprotected? I don't see it. It says just what I said in my third and fourth sentences on the subject.


Perhaps you should stop making assumptions about what research others do and stick to the facts, once you find out what they are.


----------



## btinindy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm*  /t/1171818/surge-protector-recommendations/750#post_24117377
> 
> 
> OOH! Snappy reply!
> 
> 
> Would you please quote where it says in the event of a surge it will leave the equipment plugged into it unprotected? I don't see it. It says just what I said in my third and fourth sentences on the subject.
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should stop making assumptions about what research others do and stick to the facts, once you find out what they are.



Wow, I gave the link and you still did not look. Impressive.


"All models feature an internal protection that will disconnect the surge-protective component at the end of its useful life but will maintain power to the load—now unprotected."


----------



## Colm

Thank you for confirming my assertion that the instructions don't say anything like "...in the event of a surge it would leave the equipment plugged into it unprotected". If you don't understand the difference between what you said and what the instructions say, go back and reread my initial response after you have calmed down a bit. If you still don't understand, any further communication with you is pointless.


----------



## btinindy

I am perfectly calm. In my assertion the Tripplite is an inferior product. "At the end of its useful life" is a meaningless statement since I would never know when that is. And a surge protector should never say in its manual that it will leave the equipment plugged into it unprotected.


I am trying to contribute to the OP's question, unlike anything you have offered so far. In my quest for the best product at the best value, I have offered what I have found.


OK?


Don't feel compelled by your digital courage to be such a tough guy.


----------



## Colm

Tough guy? I am a ***** cat! You sure make a lot of unfounded assertions...


The problem with your initial statement, and the reason I responded, is that it would lead an uninformed reader to believe that a MOV-based surge protective device sacrifices itself to protect the gear against the first surge it encounters and then leaves the connected gear unprotected. This is not true, for the reasons I have already explained. FWIW, although I currently use a whole-house approach to surge protection (MOV-based) for my house, I do happen to have a couple of Isobar Ultras that are on the order of 15 years old and going strong. Of course, I guess it could be because they have never experienced a surge in 15 years...


As to your particular choice of protection, I have no comment whatsoever. There is more than one effective approach to surge protection. And if you want to spend you money that way, it is your choice.


I have a question for you. What happens when the MOVs or capacitors in your unit fail? Does it continue to provide power to connected devices, or does it disconnect from the line? I know that it disconnects on a sustained over-voltage situation, but what does it do when components fail.


----------



## btinindy

Incorrect. I asserted that the Tripplite says blatantly that at some point it will leave equipment plugged into it unprotected.


I also have a whole house protector for the incoming services to my house including two power panels and cable. Let me ask you this, if your whole house protection manual said that at some point your panel would be unprotected, would you install that product? At least most whole house products have a visual indicator of when they are no longer functional. I was going to ask tripplite if this was the case with their point of use units as well but as I indicate below, they never responded.


I wanted to also add some point of use protection to supplement and protect against any internal spikes, surges etc and overall help me sleep better at night when storms are coming through. A surge protector IMO should be something that I plug in and never think about again.


I narrowed down the search to three candidates: Tripplite HT10DBS, Panamax M8 AV Pro and the Furman PST8D.


Mini review- Tripplite seemed very solid, but did not work out of the box. Would come on, but as soon as something was plugged into it, it would trip off. Sent emails to tripplite with no responses. Before sending it back,I read the manual as I often do for whatever I buy, and saw in its own literature that at some point whatever was plugged into this unit would not be protected. Seems like a bad design for a "Surge Protector". Was going to exchange but after reading this just wanted a refund. Turns out this is in several other tripplite manuals.


Panamax M8AVPro. This exceeded my budget and when it arrived its configuration and plastic case were a no go for me. I have seen several plastic electrical cases melt and did not want this tucked away somewhere. By configuration, I mean the way that the plugs were organized on the top and side. Took up too much footprint. It was very appealing that it had an internal 12v trigger for certain outlets, but I just ended up making my own with a solid state relay...in a metal box.


Furman PST8D- most solid of the bunch as far as quality of construction, IMO. After reading the Tripplite manual, I also wondered if this product was in the same boat. I emailed them and received a response within a few minutes referencing this white paper : http://www.furmansound.com/pdf/pdfdata/FurmanSMPPlusWhitePaper.pdf 


It may be marketing but I believe that they are a reputable company and have some obvious research and knowledge behind some of these claims. Nowhere does it claim that at some point it will leave anything that I have plugged into it unprotected. As stated above, I don't want to think about these units after I plug them in.


All of the ratings for the above units were similar, so that was not a factor really, and as I said above they will all live behind the whole house protection.


At least tripplite is honest in their manual. Nowhere else was this listed or advertised, so I thought I would bring it to the OP's attention.


Looks like the OP has moved on, so I probably will too. To each their own, and it seems you are a fan of tripplite with no hint of problems and that is good. I had high hopes for the tripplite largely because it was the least costly of the three and seemed like a high quality unit. Perhaps you never read the manual or just put blind trust into their products.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *btinindy*  /t/1171818/surge-protector-recommendations/750#post_24127762
> 
> 
> Let me ask you this, if your whole house protection manual said that at some point your panel would be unprotected, would you install that product?


Yes, because this is a fact of life with MOV-based surge protective devices.


> Quote:
> At least most whole house products have a visual indicator of when they are no longer functional.


So does the Isobar. Too bad you were unable to confirm it.


> Quote:
> I wanted to also add some point of use protection to supplement and protect against any internal spikes...


Internally generated transients are pretty much a non-issue in residences. They are typically small enough that just about all electronic devices are inherently protected against them. Considering you have a whole-house system, the only potential problem might be if you had sensitive gear on the same circuit as a big motor, say on the same circuit as a room air conditioner. But if it makes you sleep better, go for it.


> Quote:
> A surge protector IMO should be something that I plug in and never think about again.


That would be nice, but is not the case. However, a well designed surge protective device will last for many, many years.


> Quote:
> ...it seems you are a fan of tripplite...


I am not a fan of any particular manufacturer or product. I just use what works adequately for my needs at a reasonable price. I my case, I bought two used Isobars for $10 a piece because the price was right, I liked the metal case, and they had MOVs of adequate size to last a long time.


> Quote:
> Perhaps you never read the manual or just put blind trust into their products.


I read the manual long before you even thought of buying, and I re-read it before I asked you for the quote. I would never put blind trust in any surge protective device. I always research thoroughly before I buy.


----------



## kbreese

So a tripp lite isobar is not enough? You really need a whole house protector? Is the isobar basically pointless without it?


Also does the isobar condition the power and also eliminate line noise as well?


----------



## Colm

Many folks here believe the best approach is to start with a whole-house system. For one thing, done right, it ensures that all conductive paths into the premise are protected. That doesn't mean that point-of-use devices don't work.


The Isobar line of point-of-use devices is one of the better ones IMHO. The MOVs in them are large enough to last a very long time.


----------



## calearne

_Post removed by user._


----------



## cat.lady

Good info. after reading everything I am going to get the Isobar. Glad I found this place!


----------



## Neurorad

This thread should be a 'sticky' in every subforum.

It is my understanding that series mode protection can't withstand high surges, e.g. lightning, compared to a typical MOV-based SPD. Are there some numbers to compare the 2 types?


----------



## zeus33

Neurorad said:


> This thread should be a 'sticky' in every subforum.
> 
> It is my understanding that series mode protection can't withstand high surges, e.g. lightning, compared to a typical MOV-based SPD. Are there some numbers to compare the 2 types?



Quite the opposite. MOVs explode (sometimes catching fire) whereas series mode protection continues to work.

Series Mode technology is completely non-sacrificial and eliminates surge energy up to 6,000 Volts, without producing harmful side effects such as ground contamination or common-mode disturbances.


----------



## Neurorad

Why aren't there any whole-house series mode SPDs?


----------



## AV Doogie

Neurorad said:


> Why aren't there any whole-house series mode SPDs?


Series mode units are in series and must be sized to carry line current magnitudes. The units become quite costly as the current carrying capability increases. You would be increasing the capability of the typical series mode device from 20A to 200A. 


On the other hand, a $300-$400 SPD for your 200 amp main panel will protect the whole house and do it well for many years.


----------



## AV Doogie

zeus33 said:


> Quite the opposite. MOVs explode (sometimes catching fire) whereas series mode protection continues to work.
> You are confusing the older technology and cheap, poorly made surge strips ($10) to series mode devices ($250 ++) - which is not a realistic comparison.
> 
> 
> Series Mode technology is completely non-sacrificial and eliminates surge energy up to 6,000 Volts, without producing harmful side effects such as ground contamination or common-mode disturbances. Parallel mode devices have the same ratings if they meet the most recent test standards for waveform and current testing . Parallel mode devices installed at the main service entrance of your residence can protect the whole house for a few hundred dollars versus protecting one or two items (series mode device) for a few hundred dollars. Yea, they are probably nice devices, but they are horribly expensive for what they do.
> 
> 
> Have you had problems with ground contamination or common mode disturbances from surge events


..


----------



## zeus33

AV Doogie said:


> You are confusing the older technology and cheap, poorly made surge strips ($10) to series mode devices ($250 ++) - which is not a realistic comparison.
> 
> Parallel mode devices installed at the main service entrance of your residence can protect the whole house for a few hundred dollars versus protecting one or two items (series mode device) for a few hundred dollars. Yea, they are probably nice devices, but they are horribly expensive for what they do.



I haven't read up on it in a while, but MOVs were still sacrificial the last time I checked. They only take X amount of power before they die. Is that still accurate? 

A friend of mine has the whole house surge device that the power company installs right at the meter and had all APC surge and UPS devices on everything in the house. There was no lightning in the area, but some surge hit and completely destroyed the power company's device and all of the surge strips/UPS devices and everything attached to them. It was like pulling teeth to try to get that stuff payed for. Needless to say, he took a major hit after it was all said and done.

Yes, series mode devices are quite a bit more money, but you get what you pay for. I live in FL, so lightning is a daily occurrence most of the year. I have a series mode device that has survived multiple surges that have destroyed APC, TrippLite & Cyberpower surge strips and UPSs. Some of them protected the devices that were plugged into them, but most of the devices they were "protecting" suffered some type of damage or complete failure. So yes, the MOV devices "lessened" the damage, but by the time I factor in my time and hassle, the money and time spent repairing the damage to the devices (at least the ones that survived) and the money spent on replacing said surge strips and UPS devices, it's a no brainer for me. Besides, with surge strips and UPS devices, you have no idea how much life is left in the MOVs, so you don't know when to replace them. You may think you are covered, and not realize that there is no protection until it's too late. The whole house models usually have a light on them that is "supposed" to tell you if you are still protected or not, but I don't think they are very accurate. Unless they tell you to replace it as soon as it gets any kind of decent surge, they don't have a way to know how much surge capacity is really left in the MOVs. 

I didn't buy into the need for protection, until I got hit with a surge many years ago and took a beating from the insurance company to try and replace my stuff. At that point I went on the search for something better. Nothing will survive a direct lightning hit, but as far as I know, the series mode devices will take the largest surge and continue to function, instead of dying. Mine has proven to do so on multiple occasions.

It's not really feasible to purchase series mode protection for the whole house, unless that amount is no big deal to you. I chose to put series mode protection on my system and PC setup, the most expensive and fragile things in the house.

A whole house device as you mentioned in combination with these provides pretty good protection. 

If you have any new information, please share it. I'm always interested in protecting my "toys". If there is something better, I would like to know about it.


----------



## AV Doogie

zeus33 said:


> I haven't read up on it in a while, but MOVs were still sacrificial the last time I checked. They only take X amount of power before they die. Is that still accurate? MOV operation has not changed, just the way that UL tests and requires a 'rated' SPD device to handle large amounts of energy safely. I would not call MOV's sacrificial in the way that you probably describe. MOV's will take a certain amount of energy before they fail (thermally) but if you buy a well made unit which is sized correctly, they will protect downstream equipment for a long time.
> 
> A friend of mine has the whole house surge device that the power company installs right at the meter and had all APC surge and UPS devices on everything in the house. There was no lightning in the area, but some surge hit and completely destroyed the power company's device and all of the surge strips/UPS devices and everything attached to them. It was like pulling teeth to try to get that stuff payed for. Needless to say, he took a major hit after it was all said and done. To be fair, the power company probably installed a cheap meter-based unit. I have seen some forms of these units and they are nothing more than a few MOV's lined up on a board from L-L, L-N and L-G. Once the surge event caused the main device to fail, the cheap surge strips failed too. Higher quality strip type units designed to handle the standard test waveforms via UL should provide decent protection and not fail as you describe as long as they are used in combination with a unit at the main service.
> 
> Yes, series mode devices are quite a bit more money, but you get what you pay for. I live in FL, so lightning is a daily occurrence most of the year. I have a series mode device that has survived multiple surges that have destroyed APC, TrippLite & Cyberpower surge strips and UPSs. Some of them protected the devices that were plugged into them, but most of the devices they were "protecting" suffered some type of damage or complete failure. So yes, the MOV devices "lessened" the damage, but by the time I factor in my time and hassle, the money and time spent repairing the damage to the devices (at least the ones that survived) and the money spent on replacing said surge strips and UPS devices, it's a no brainer for me. Besides, with surge strips and UPS devices, you have no idea how much life is left in the MOVs, so you don't know when to replace them. You may think you are covered, and not realize that there is no protection until it's too late. The whole house models usually have a light on them that is "supposed" to tell you if you are still protected or not, but I don't think they are very accurate. Unless they tell you to replace it as soon as it gets any kind of decent surge, they don't have a way to know how much surge capacity is really left in the MOVs. Let me be clear, I have no problems with series mode devices other than they provide protection for only a few devices and for a high cost. You are trying to compare a series mode device to surge strips and UPS units, neither of which are made to withstand the service entrance overvoltage conditions you have indicated above. A high quality whole house device installed at the main panel will provide the majority of the protection and then the surge strips or UPS units can handle any let-through from that main service entrance device. Look at some of the better whole house units on the market for example: http://www.ggtechcorp.com/PDF/XT-40.pdf
> 
> I didn't buy into the need for protection, until I got hit with a surge many years ago and took a beating from the insurance company to try and replace my stuff. At that point I went on the search for something better. Nothing will survive a direct lightning hit, but as far as I know, the series mode devices will take the largest surge and continue to function, instead of dying. Mine has proven to do so on multiple occasions. You are absolutely correct that a direct lightning strike will not be survived. Most damage is not caused by direct strikes but rather overvoltage conditions due to nearby strikes, and switching transients from within your own home or from the utility. When you plug in your series mode protection, you are generally at an outlet some distance from the main service panel. The voltage let-through at that remote outlet point is going to be significantly less than the magnitude at the main service entrance panel- the series mode device and even the surge strip see this much smaller let-through voltage and will shunt or filter the energy to ground. The el-cheapo surge strip may or may not survive depending upon its design, whereas your series mode device (of higher quality and cost) simply filters and releases the energy it encounters. The UPS unit, which was never meant to be a suppression device, generally contains a couple of MOV devices to protect it for the warranty period, generally no more or no less.
> 
> 
> I also refer you to a guide which can be helpful in researching suppression equipment: http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/sa01005003e.pdf
> 
> It's not really feasible to purchase series mode protection for the whole house, unless that amount is no big deal to you. I chose to put series mode protection on my system and PC setup, the most expensive and fragile things in the house. Series mode units would be way too expensive to protect an entire residence, that is why a layered approach to protect the whole house. You also need to remember to protect the other paths into the residence such as cable, satellite, telephone (copper).
> 
> A whole house device as you mentioned in combination with these provides pretty good protection. The best way to protect everything in the house is to install two levels of protection. The first level of protection needs to be a high quality device at the main service. A second level should be your series mode or high quality surge strips.
> 
> If you have any new information, please share it. I'm always interested in protecting my "toys". If there is something better, I would like to know about it.


... 
Good luck with the lightning in Florida


----------



## zeus33

AV Doogie said:


> ...
> Good luck with the lightning in Florida



Cool. Thanks for the info. I'll do some reading later this evening.


----------



## torii

the key to any surge protection is double lightning strikes.

good luck


----------



## mpedris

zeus33 said:


> Yes, series mode devices are quite a bit more money, but you get what you pay for. I live in FL, so lightning is a daily occurrence most of the year. *I have a series mode device* that has survived multiple surges that have destroyed APC, TrippLite & Cyberpower surge strips and UPSs.


Which series mode device do you have? I am interested in looking into one. 

Thanks!


----------



## zeus33

mpedris said:


> Which series mode device do you have? I am interested in looking into one.
> 
> Thanks!



I have Brickwall, but ZeroSurge and SurgeX are also series mode devices. The ZeroSurge products appear to have the best pricing at the moment.

*ZeroSurge*

*Brickwall*

*SurgeX*


----------



## mpedris

zeus33 said:


> I have Brickwall, but ZeroSurge and SurgeX are also series mode devices. The ZeroSurge products appear to have the best pricing at the moment.
> 
> *ZeroSurge*
> 
> *Brickwall*
> 
> *SurgeX*


Thanks a lot for the info and the links.


----------



## zurak

*My Surge Suppression Experience*

I've been reading this entire thread for the last few days. After a while I would glance over the responses by some members as you could tell exactly what they were going to say. I appreciated the links to the IEEE guide on Surge Suppression and to Solving ground loops as well as others. I also enjoyed the Youtube videos of the SurgeX guy destroying their competition literally. Before reading this thread I had already installed an Eaton CHSPT2ULTRA device in the main electrical panel. I also installed a Midnite Solar MNSPD300-AC device on the PV Combiner panel just before the Solar generated AC back feeds into the main electrical panel. 

For the house, I have been using a mixture of MOV based devices from CyberPower, Triplite, Belkin and some lesser brands purchased at Newegg. At first I was seriously considering the APC P11VNT3 but there was an issue with the value of the L-N, L-G, N-G UL 1449 Type 3 SPD voltage protection labeling on the device. APC states the voltage is 330V yet mine read 400V, 500V and 400V. So I opted not to go with this particular APC device. The Belkin BE112230-08 states UL Clamping Voltage (3-wire) UL1449 500V. It was through this thread that I found a link to a recall of nearly 15 million surge suppressors and had some that were on that list. I also found a link that suggested that the MOV based search suppressors be shook (lightly) periodically to see if there is anything rattling around. Sure enough 3 suppressors were rattling and in one all the MOV's were no longer connected on both ends, yet the indicator light was still on indicating that the device was functioning. 

I had given serious consideration to the Furman PST-8 and PST-8D surge suppressors. What intrigued me the most was their ability to shut the device (and anything connected to it) off once the voltage hit 145 VAC. What disappointed me was that they still used an MOV device (at least one that they mention and can be readily seen in a photo of the circuit card).

Earlier this year we cut the proverbial cable cord and in designing my grounding system, I went with the Morgan Manufacturing M315 UHF/VHF/CATV arrestor which employs "a hybrid circuit of both gas discharge device and metal oxide varistors for fast attack speed, DC voltage passive up to 50 volt". This is a leg up to the TII Tech 212 device gas-discharge only tube (which I also left in the box for a future Satellite dish). Cables are also connected to a grounding block terminal & the antenna mast is grounded as well as all ends of the EMT. The box was placed over a hole in the side of the house where the builder left some quad shield RG-6 cables. I use a power inserter in the house where the cables come in to deliver power to the Winegard mast mounted pre-amp. Without it, I could only pull in 3 channels. With it more than 88 some over 130 miles as the crow flies. I ran a #4 gauge wire from the box to a new 8-foot buried ground rod which is connected to the main electrical service ground via a 100 feet of #6 gauge solid copper wire to a depth of 18" and making a half circle pattern (i.e., no sharp 90 degree turns). The telco connection at the side of the house has been disconnected at the NID since we no longer use a land line from the phone company (we do love our Ooma VOIP service). The cable guy was out at the house recently and installed a grounding block at the demarcation box, stating the code had changed from when the house was built to where its at now in 2015. The ground block also terminates to the main electrical panels ground rod.

There really is no need for further coaxial cable protection in the house or for telco protection (for us). The NID is also grounded to the main ground rod so even with a telco connection I still would have no need of further filtering or surge suppressing for it in the house. 

I also looked at Series Mode devices from Zero Surge, Brickwall (which is a Zero Surge Private Label and made in the same factory as the Zero Surge devices). There is a reason that the products from Zero Surge and Brickwall look very much a like. Brickwalls products were more expensive, even with their 10%NOW coupon. Zero Surge is also offering a 10% off coupon on additional orders placed within 60 days of the first order. The Zero Surge representative mentioned that many of their units are still working after 25 years and some customers have sent them back to be re-tested and none have failed yet. You can find bargains on eBay for the Zero Surge, Brickwall and SurgeX devices.

In the end I went with SurgeX opting for 7 of their SX-1115 devices and 2 of their SA-82 devices. I have a detailed spreadsheet that I used to note the max watts/amps for all the devices that will be plugged in and to which device. I also added typ(ical) columns and observed columns. The Monster HTS 3600 looks nice and has a useful voltmeter and ammeter on it but I double checked everything with a Kilo-watt meter as well. In no case will I ever approach 70% max power and I can't imagine being in the room without heavy ear protection at that volume level. I have equipment throughout the entire house and the SX-1115's fit the bill nicely. Down the road I will build a nice 1U and 2U racks made out of wood for these devices but for now, little rubber feet will have to do. 

I want to thank this forum for their contribution in helping me understand. You're all a bunch of swell people. Just thought I would share what I learned and what I ended up doing.


----------



## Shinsetta

I agree with what people have said in this thread. All manufacturers say misleading things and omit information that looks bad for them.

Zurak mentioned he ended up purchasing SurgeX products. He also mentioned that he looked into Furman products but he was scared because they used MOVs.

Furman actually uses the same basic series mode tech as SurgeX, BrickWall, Torus, ZeroSurge, etc. Furman simply added an MOV for additional protection. Why did they do this? Evidently, because the series mode protection does not completely block/absorb surges as they claim. 

Wirecutter is the only independent 3rd party to do a field test and publish the results. What did they find? They found that the Furman product actually performed the best, better than the high-priced series mode surge protectors from SurgeX, BrickWall, Torus, ZergoSurge, etc. So, Furman was, in fact, correct. Their series mode protection did provide good protection but some voltage still got through and the MOV blocked the remnant. By the way, Furman's product not only performed the best but also costed the least $100 vs $400+ for others.

Nevertheless, you can't rely on Furman or high-priced series mode surge protectors for large surges. You need a whole house surge protector for large surges as well as a solid single point ground for all incoming wires. It doesn't cost _that _much to install as many think. Material and labor probably varies from $300-$700. It certainly costs much less than buying several of the high-priced series mode protectors which won't protect against major surges.

Depending upon what kind of whole house surge protector you get, it will still allow about a 700V surge through. This is why you still need point-of-use surge protectors for your sensitive equipment. 700V is still way too much for electronics with microprocessors.

Do you need the high-priced series mode protectors for this? Hell, no. If you're paranoid, get the Furman's. It's been tested to work better. But, I personally think that if you use the best $30 surge protectors, it's way sufficient. They provide adequate protection and they will shut down when any of the MOVs get burned through.


----------



## Neurorad

Colm said:


> SurgeX, and other manufacturers of series type devices, make three claims: their devices don't wear out like MOVs, they have zero or very low let through voltage, and they don't contaminate the equipment grounding conductor. Yes, MOVs degrade over time. The voltage that they turn on at will get lower and lower, until they are triggering on peaks of normal AC and self-destruct, blow a fuse, or trip a breaker. But a properly sized MOV will last tens of years. And for a point-of-use device, this is really easy to achieve because the biggest surge experience by such a device is only about 90J. Yes, ground contamination can occur with 3-mode MOV-based devices that have MOVs connected L-G and N-G in addition to L-N. They can actually create a surge on the equipment grounding conductor that wouldn't have been there otherwise. The issue can be avoided by using a single mode MOV-based device which does not shunt surges to ground. But even 3-mode MOV-based devices are not a problem if you understand what can happen and use the devices appropriately, or just plug all your gear into a single 3-mode device. So that leaves let through voltage. Most CE devices are inherently protected against surges of 600V or even more. MOV-based devices are capable of providing protection to lower level than that.
> 
> There are three down sides to series type devices: they cost more than MOV-based devices, they only protect against surges entering on the AC lines, and there isn't a whole-house product because the cost of such a device would be prohibitive.
> 
> So, the question for you to aswer for yourself is, are you willing to pay the extra price for the features of a series type device based on what you know.


Nice thread summary here.


----------



## zurak

Shinsetta said:


> Zurak mentioned he ended up purchasing SurgeX products. He also mentioned that he looked into Furman products but he was scared because they used MOVs.
> 
> Furman actually uses the same basic series mode tech as SurgeX, BrickWall, Torus, ZeroSurge, etc. Furman simply added an MOV for additional protection. Why did they do this? Evidently, because the series mode protection does not completely block/absorb surges as they claim.
> 
> Wirecutter is the only independent 3rd party to do a field test and publish the results. What did they find? They found that the Furman product actually performed the best, better than the high-priced series mode surge protectors from SurgeX, BrickWall, Torus, ZergoSurge, etc. So, Furman was, in fact, correct. Their series mode protection did provide good protection but some voltage still got through and the MOV blocked the remnant. By the way, Furman's product not only performed the best but also costed the least $100 vs $400+ for others.


The whole purpose behind the invention of Series Mode technology was to get away from relying on sacrificial MOV's for surge protection. Competitors were faced with two choices: license the technology (if it was possible) or build a better mouse trap. Patent law allows for patents to be improved upon for the greater good. Furman changed just enough elements of the patent so as not to be an "outright" copy, but in the process, reduced the size of the primary element, the massive inductor (reactor), and changed it's characteristics which resulted in a lot more surge energy getting past their modified circuit so they added an MOV to divert this additional surge energy onto the Neutral wire. Did they succeed in building a better mouse trap? No! Why? By adding an MOV back into the circuit they made the protector sacrificial and gave the surge a new life i.e. a second chance to do more damage. Consumer equipment will bear the brunt of the damage to protect the MOV, which is unfortunate (i.e. backwards) and ironic.

I am disappointed that Furman and others who have copied parts of the design have failed to build a better mouse trap. Whatever it is that they built it cannot be called Series Mode. Series Mode technology is a series of patents, copyrights and trademarks which eliminated the use of MOV's which are sacrificial. Something is either Series Mode or its not. Furman's modification cannot be called Series Mode; they initially claimed Series Mode but a lawsuit against them caused them to rename their new technology SMP which is short for Series Multi-stage Protection, not Series Mode Protection as some would have you believe. But, each time the MOV is engaged, it will give up some of it's useful life until it has no more life to give.

Wirecutter's sole purpose is to make money as evidenced by statements on their website, so they can't be called "independent", also their testing methods leave a lot to be desired and are continuously changing each time they are questioned about it. Either they can test for worst case surges and do so repetitively or they cannot and if they cannot, what's the point? The IEEE states the average building can see 100 worst case surges of 6000 Volt, 3000 amps in a years time. Doing the math, this works out to about 90J of energy for each worst case surge. In 2018, the engineer at Wirecutter was testing the surge protectors with a surge ranging from 100 volts to 600 volts in 100 volt increments with only 2 Amps. He said he was only interested to prove if the devices clamped at their stated voltage, never mind that the MOV's have a 20% tolerance which means even two devices from the same manufacture and same model may not "clamp" at the stated voltage. Doing the math, this works out to be 1/20-th of a Joule of energy for all 6 surges, definitely not representative of a surge, perhaps not even a transient and with a 20% tolerance for the MOV, what's the point? In 2019, the same engineer at Wirecutter used better test equipment and this time tested at 5000 volts but did not specify the type of surge waveform or the amperage used. He only mentioned that they tested their top picks (i.e. a handful of models) a total of six times at 5000 volts and then averaged the results (averaging makes things look better). Full disclosure is needed and if not provided, what are they hiding or not telling you? Again, either the MOV surge protectors can handle 100 worst case surges per year or they cannot. If they cannot handle 100 worst case surges per year, what's the point of testing other than lulling the consumer into a false sense of security. Series Mode filters can take the worst case surges all day long, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. Nothing else comes close at that price point.

Top-rated Type 2 whole house surge protection units installed in the mains electrical panel will let through 600 Volts of surge energy at the surge device and another 25 volts for each inch of wiring. A typical installation can use 18-24 inches of wiring to the breaker, so the total amount of surge voltage that makes its way into the home will be anywhere from 1050 to 1200 volts (or more). While better than a worst case surge of 6,000 volts, it still means that local Type 3 surge protection throughout the home will be required. 20% of surges originate outside the home and the other 80% within the home. The Type 2 protector can help mitigate external surges but do nothing for internally generated surges and still require Type 3 protectors throughout the home. Surges like to travel in straight lines, but there are 4 or more 90 degree bends in the electrical wiring between the outlet and the mains electrical panel, meaning that often the surge once transferred to the Neutral Wire or Safety Ground (green) wire will end up back in the very electronics that you're trying to protect or show up on another outlet on the same branch circuit. The IEEE has said as much, but it gets worse, the MOV is in a parallel path to the flow of electricity which means that some of the surge energy will make its way past the MOV and into the very electronics that you're trying to protect. You want the MOV to be the lower impedance path but there is no guarantee that all the surge energy takes that path for the entire duration of the surge, some will follow the path into the electronics that you want to protect. The MOV doesn't really "absorb" the surge energy, rather it "diverts" it and therein lies the 2nd problem, that its being diverted onto wires that are bent in such a way that the surge will try to find another way to EARTH and for the moment your electronics is a more inviting target. The MOV then as a surge protection element is useless and that is the biggest con being perpetrated by manufactures of MOV based surge protection, lulling the consumers into a false sense of security. On the other hand, place the surge protection element in series with the flow of electricity and surges can be dealt with and that is why Series Mode filters were created.

The upsides for Series Mode devices are that they actually eliminate the surge instead of diverting it where the surge has a chance to do more damage i.e. a 2nd life. Yes they cost more but its because the safest way to deal with a surge is head on i.e. in series rather than in parallel where some surge energy invariably enters into whatever it is that is plugged into the protector. The last place you want to deal with a surge on a coaxial cable is inside the residence. Your best bet is to deal with it before it enters the home and that's usually a $10 or less solution i.e. a Ground Block with a straight connection to the EARTH. Same way with a phone line, that is secure it outside the house (but the phone company should already do a good job with that). As for Ethernet, secure the cable modem, router, network switches at their source with a Series Mode filter and secure the destination (computer and/or AV gear) and there is no need to do anything else. Yes they can cost more than the average MOV based surge protector but in all likelihood will last a lifetime. The oldest unit I have was made in 1995 and still working good. If you consider replacing an MOV based surge protectors that costs $30 every two years, after 10 years you'll have spent $180 which is just about the price of a 2-outlet 15 amp Series Mode filter which will still be working, so if you take a long view, they are not that expensive. After 20 years it's $360 vs $180 and you come out ahead. Also consider how much longer you'll be able to keep your electronics and or appliances, not to mention peace of mind and of course family safety (Google: Fires caused by Surge protectors which still happens in 2020).

There are a series of video's (no pun intended) from SurgeX that demonstrate their technology vs. MOV based products. It's an eye opener as well, especially the video's in which they use an avalanche diode across the L-N prongs of an AC plug plugged into MOV based units vs. their units. SurgeX eliminates the surge i.e. whatever residual energy is left is well within the AC waveform being delivered to the connected equipment. The MOV units don't fare so well meaning your electronics won't fare that well either.


----------



## Minimus7

zurak said:


> Wirecutter's sole purpose is to make money as evidenced by statements on their website, so they can't be called "independent"


But the Wirecutter should not be directly equated with the websites that do nothing but post affiliate links disguised as news or reviews.

There have been a couple of Wirecutter stories where they were so unimpressed with the products on offer that they did not recommend any of them. I think Air Fryers was one of those.

If the Wirecutter was only about money and not about information, they would at least have ranked them and said "Here are the top three, you know what to do, click the links so we can pay our bills" but that is not what they did. They actually said they did not recommend buying any of them. Which goes directly to their bottom line, yet they said it.


----------



## zurak

Minimus7 said:


> But the Wirecutter should not be directly equated with the websites that do nothing but post affiliate links disguised as news or reviews.
> 
> There have been a couple of Wirecutter stories where they were so unimpressed with the products on offer that they did not recommend any of them. I think Air Fryers was one of those.


The point I was trying to make by way of an analogy is this. Consumer Reports (CR) accepts no advertising, pays for all the products it tests, and as a nonprofit organization has no shareholders. The same cannot be said of The New York Times, the parent corporation of Wirecutter, or Wirecutter itself and therefore Wirecutter cannot be called independent by any stretch of the imagination.

If as a manufacture you don't send Wirecutter your product to "test" (at your cost), then it can't possibly make their "Best" list. The writers are not engineers and many state they ask the manufacturer questions and then do a write up so that everyone else can understand. To readers this is nothing more than marketing hype disguised as a review written up by a third party who makes money on the affiliate links, exactly the kind of thing you suggest that Wirecutter not be equated with.

When I suggested that Wirecutter change their title to "The Best Surge Protectors under $30", they mentioned that people who visit their site don't want to spend any more than $30 on a surge protector and many want to spend as little as possible. Perhaps Wirecutter could not recommend an Air Fryer under $30?

BTW, the New York Times paid $30 Million for Wirecutter. They wouldn't spend that kind of money if they did not think they could earn a good revenue stream from it. They make their money based on affiliate links for products they recommend to people. Does anyone still think that Wirecutter is independent?









The New York Times is buying The Wirecutter for more than $30 million


Brian Lam sells his online consumer guide to the paper of record.




www.vox.com


----------



## Shinsetta

Zurak,

I want to keep it civil so please don't take what I say too harshly. I just want to get to the truth. Can I ask what do you do for a living? Just to let you know, by federal law, you have to state if you are in anyway associated with any of the companies stated in this thread. That doesn't mean you work for these companies. That means that you have some sort of stake on whether the companies do well or not. I can tell you that I do not. A lot of people won't say anything because they don't want to add fraud charges which are actually much more serious and can land them in jail for a considerable amount of time if it's discovered that they actually related in some way to these companies somehow like selling their products.

You brought up the issue of patents. What does patents have anything to do with Furman, SurgeX, ZeroSurge, and other surge protection companies? *The patents expired decades ago.* Companies can use the Series Mode Protection as much as they want. If adding the additional MOV protection was truly worse than why did they do it? They could just make the same exact equipment as the other SMP companies. There are no patents protecting the technology anymore. I think you know this so it's puzzling why you bring up the issue of patents that would confuse readers.

If Furman's MOV actually dies, then it simply acts exactly like SMP technology. All they did was add an MOV _after the SMP protection_. How would that make things worse?

How can you criticize Wirecutter when everyone is starting to rely on them to buy products in other categories because they actually execute pretty decent testing. What other website or business tests products like they do? Wirecutter actually is becoming a leader in reviewing all products. I would still be wary and be on guard but right now, they haven't done anything to break my trust in them. Everything they do seems to be pretty forthright. I do believe that they should be even MORE rigorous in their testing but nobody else is as rigorous as them. That's why their reviews are usually solid.

You also mentioned Consumer Reports. They completely stink in my opinion. I'm not saying that they are shady and getting money from manufacturers. They may not get paid by the makers of the products they test but, the organization as a whole seems like a total mess. Their testing methodology are totally flawed and downright idiotic sometimes. Sometimes all they do is read the marketing material of the manufacturers and then compare the specifications. That's not valid testing of the products. Manufacturers exaggerate all the time so you can't rely on their marketing material. There is a reason why they used to be popular but nobody uses them anymore. The stuff they recommend turns out to be garbage. I rarely listen to what they have to say anymore.

Now going back to Furman. If the MOV was so bad, why don't they just use the SMP technology as SurgeX? The patents expired decades ago. Can you answer that?


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## zurak

Shinsetta said:


> You brought up the issue of patents. What does patents have anything to do with Furman, SurgeX, ZeroSurge, and other surge protection companies? *The patents expired decades ago.* Companies can use the Series Mode Protection as much as they want. If adding the additional MOV protection was truly worse than why did they do it? They could just make the same exact equipment as the other SMP companies. There are no patents protecting the technology anymore. I think you know this so it's puzzling why you bring up the issue of patents that would confuse readers.


I just did a simple quick search of four of the patents in the family of Series Mode technology and they are still active.






US4870528A - Power line surge suppressor - Google Patents


A surge suppressor comprises a first series circuit having a first inductance and a first alternating voltage limiter, including at least a first capacitance and a bidirectionally conductive rectifying circuit for charging the first capacitance, coupled between first and second input terminals...



patents.google.com









US4870534A - Power line surge suppressor - Google Patents


A surge suppressor for repeatedly protecting a load against surges occurring on A-C power mains from lightning surges or the like comprises a first series circuit having a first inductance and a first alternating voltage limiter, including at least a first capacitance and a bidirectionally...



patents.google.com









US6728089B2 - Surge suppressor for wide range of input voltages - Google Patents


The present invention is directed to a wide input voltage range surge suppressor. It includes a series circuit for attachment to an upstream AC power input, and to a downstream load. There is a nonlinear low pass L-C filter having an inductor (and in some preferred embodiments, a low Q linear...



patents.google.com









US7068487B2 - Surge protector - Google Patents


A surge protector for alternating current service includes at least an incoming hot line and a neutral line, but usually includes an incoming hot line, an incoming neutral line and a safety ground line. The surge protector has a series connected transformer with input connection to the incoming...



patents.google.com





In any new invention the first patent often spawns additional patents and there are many patents surrounding Series Mode technology. Because patent maintenance fees are expensive, a patent owner may allow one or more patents to expire, counting on other patents in the family to cover the same material i.e. US6728089B2 covers US4870528A and US4870534A which expired in September 2008.

In addition, there are other intellectual property rights (copyright, trademark, trade secrets, etc...) that can give rise to significant liability. The expiration of a patent will not impact those other rights. In other words, the mere expiration of a patent does not mean that anybody can freely practice everything in the patent until they are satisfied (preferably by a lawyer's opinion letter) that what they intend to do is (a) legal, and (b) does not violate any other IP rights. Also the two expired patents are covered in a third patent which is still active.

To me, it would appear that you are misinformed then on both the status of Series Mode patents and that any anyone can use them or violate the Intellectual property rights. I don't mean to be harsh here, but to use your own words, you are confusing readers.

Furman announced their "*S*eries *M*ulti-stage *P*rotection" technology in June of 2005, long before any Series Mode patents expired and no where in their literature do they refer to it as Series Mode technology, and to do so, would invite a lawsuit. They were already sued by SurgeX once before. 

As I stated earlier, competitors have a choice:

a. they can try and lease Series Mode technology,
b. build something better than Series Mode technology, or
c. change just enough of the Series Mode technology patents so as not to be an outright copy.

If you look at the size and type of inductor that Furman uses in their Series Multi-stage Protection you'll see that it pales in comparison (size and type) to the one that Series Mode technology uses which could result in excess surge energy getting by one of their stages of protection and could be why they chose to use an MOV to deal with the surge energy. MOV's by their very nature are sacrificial and will eventually give up their life and when this happens it would be nice if Furman's technology shut their surge protector down, else damage will result to whatever is plugged into it, and while the MOV is still working, whatever surge energy remains on the Neutral wire will have a 2nd life and a chance to do more damage, this much is clear. However, if you really want an explanation of why Furman felt the need to follow their "Series Multi-stage protection" with an MOV you really should direct your question to them, but to assume that Furman's technology is Series Mode is just plain wrong.

I am not sure if you read my comments/opinions about Wirecutter/Consumer Reports or just skimmed through them, but I'll restate them here again:

Wirecutter cannot be call cannot be called independent by any stretch of the imagination. Not withstanding their testing methods which have much to be desired, they don't pay for the products they test, in fact if a manufacturer doesn't send them a product at their expense it can't make their Best list and their best list for surge protection consists of products costing less than $30 because consumers don't want to spend any more than that. Lastly, they make money off of their recommendations through affiliate links and they state so on their website.

By way of an analogy, Consumer Reports (CR) accepts no advertising, pays for all the products it tests, and as a nonprofit organization has no shareholders.

CR is independent, Wirecutter is not. We don't have to like either company and we are all entitled to our own opinions.

I hope I haven't been too harsh with you, if I have it was not my intention. I am a member of this forum to learn, offer advise and share my experiences.


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## Shinsetta

Zurak,

I have no idea why you are taking a line that I'm wrong. Just go to the Zero Surge website and on the 1st page, it says that series mode tech started to be sold in 1989. 









Home Page - Zero Surge


Since 1989, Zero Surge has manufactured the world's finest series mode power quality filters. Zero Surge’s patented products have never experienced a surge failure or fire. They are designed to repeatedly withstand worst-case surges and remove EMI/RFI noise disturbances that can degrade your...




zerosurge.com





1989

Patents last about 20 years, depending upon how good your lawyer is. Now, do you think the patent is still active?

When you claim that there are currently 4 active patents. Isn't it possible that it could be about _other_ technology related to series mode technology?!? I don't understand why you don't see this. I read about these patents and the technology isn't really that important. It's patents that claim that it makes the power cleaner and other stuff. It's pointless patents that nobody cares about.

When ZeroSurge sued Furman, they didn't sue for patent infringement. They sued for _trademark _infringement. That means that Furman had a right to use the tech but Zero Surge fought about the usage of the term, Series Mode technology. The judge was wrong but he decided that Series Mode Technology + MOVs cannot be called Series Mode technology. You have to call it something else because series mode _must_ have no MOVs. The judge was obviously either biased or an idiot. Series Mode technology is my mind does _not_ mean something without MOVs but the judge concluded if you use the term, Series Mode technology in your sales material, you must not have any MOVs.

You can all find this out by taking about a half an hour to read through their website.

Please make me stop repeating all this stuff over and over again.


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## zurak

Shinsetta said:


> I have no idea why you are taking a line that I'm wrong. Just go to the Zero Surge website and on the 1st page, it says that series mode tech started to be sold in 1989.
> 
> 1989
> 
> Patents last about 20 years, depending upon how good your lawyer is. Now, do you think the patent is still active?
> 
> When you claim that there are currently 4 active patents. Isn't it possible that it could be about _other_ technology related to series mode technology?!? I don't understand why you don't see this. I read about these patents and the technology isn't really that important. It's patents that claim that it makes the power cleaner and other stuff. It's pointless patents that nobody cares about.
> 
> When ZeroSurge sued Furman, they didn't sue for patent infringement. They sued for _trademark _infringement. That means that Furman had a right to use the tech but Zero Surge fought about the usage of the term, Series Mode technology. The judge was wrong but he decided that Series Mode Technology + MOVs cannot be called Series Mode technology. You have to call it something else because series mode _must_ have no MOVs. The judge was obviously either biased or an idiot. Series Mode technology is my mind does _not_ mean something without MOVs but the judge concluded if you use the term, Series Mode technology in your sales material, you must not have any MOVs.
> 
> You can all find this out by taking about a half an hour to read through their website.
> 
> Please make me stop repeating all this stuff over and over again.
> 
> Now going back to Furman. If the MOV was so bad, why don't they just use the SMP technology as SurgeX? The patents expired decades ago. Can you answer that?


It's clear to me that you don't understand patents or how they work. It's beyond the scope of this forum to get into a deeper discussion on patent law. Patents are extremely important and they prevent companies from infringing on others work. The links I provided describe the patents, their expiration date(s) as well as whether they improve upon prior work. There are more than 4 patents in the Series Mode family but I thought 4 would be good enough to make a point.

You say you went to a website and saw that the company was making a particular type of Series Mode filter in 1989 (the patent was actually filed in September 1988) and correctly assumed it expired 20 years later (i.e. September 2008), but the inventor did not stop with one or two patents, rather he continued to improve upon the design at least twice and patented those improvements and those patents are still in effect today which also include the works of his prior patents, *AND* cannot be easily copied. You also assumed incorrectly that the company is making the same design based on the original patent, which is a bad assumption. *The moral is you can't make an assumption about patents if you don't at least attempt to read or look at the patents*.

But to use your example of reading the first page of the ZeroSurge website, if you clicked on the *LEARN MORE* button, you'd find the same 4 patents that I cited. Did you look at the last two? *April 2004, U.S. Patent #6,728,089 issued to J. Rudy Harford for “Wide Voltage Range” Technology, and June 2006, U.S. Patent #7,068,487 issued to J. Rudy Harford for advanced “Surge Cancellation” technology*_. _If you look them up you'll see they build upon the existing series mode technology and the patents cover them as prior work_._

So even the reference that you cite lists the additional Series Mode patents and using your statement that *patents last about 20 years, simple math means the patents are still active.* ZeroSurge is making products based upon the improvement to Series Mode filters (not just the original design), and they disclose those patents on every single device they make and they are still active. All one has to do is look at one of their products to see all the patents listed _*or as you suggest the first page of the ZeroSurge website*_. Its easy enough to look those patents up and see that they are still active.

Furman came out with Series Multi-Stage Protection in September 2005 and at the time all 4 Series Mode patents that I cited were still active. Whatever it is that they designed it is not Series Mode and cannot be called Series Mode no matter how many times one clicks their heels and wishes it to be so. Even if Furman based their SMP on Series Mode filters, they would have had to have changed it sufficiently so as not to be an outright copy. Did they do that? You should ask them.

They were sued because they claimed Series Mode technology which is not only protected by a family of patents but also copyrighted/trademarked. For another company to use the name would be to dilute the value of the brand and the judge rightly ruled against them. Furman neither licensed or built Series Mode, rather something else. But it does not mean that Furman could copy the design because if they did they would also have been sued for patent infringement. Although the settlement was sealed they probably paid huge $$$ in damages and court costs.

The real victims here were all the people who were duped into believing they were purchasing a genuine Series Mode product from a company that had been around for a while and for less money than the real McCoy. Did they ever make their consumers whole? As for the consumer, if one saw a Series Mode product (even when that bore the Trademarked label) for half the price they might be tempted to buy it, but you'd think that alarm bells would have gone off in their heads i.e. what's the catch? The catch of course was the product they were buying was not the real deal and could not even be called the real deal. I hope that all of them were made whole.



Shinsetta said:


> Now going back to Furman. If the MOV was so bad, why don't they just use the SMP technology as SurgeX? The patents expired decades ago. Can you answer that?


Only Furman can really answer this, but let me suggest the following. Series Mode technology is patented and still active (both at the time that Furman announced SMP+ in June 2005, and today October 2020), so Furman could not copy it outright and would had had to change the characteristics of the filter. In doing so, they now had excess surge energy that they had to deal with and fell back to traditional methods i.e. adding a sacrificial MOV to their design to handle that energy as a "last" stage, thus the name "Series Multi-stage Protection". This is what happens when you base a design on someone else's patented work. Did they make it better? Absolutely not as the whole point of Series Mode is that it avoids sacrificial MOV's. If you buy their product and have to replace it because the MOV died, then you would have been better off buying the real deal to begin with, especially since MOV's as surge protection elements will damage electronics. The damage may not be immediate, but it is cumulative.

Patents and Intellectual Property rights exist for a reason and just can't be infringed upon or trampled on. Whatever it is that they came up with it is not Series Mode, and cannot be called Series Mode either. If you can't see this, there is no point in responding or repeating yourself, especially if in your mind you believe that Furman's product is the same Series Mode technology used by ZeroSurge, Brickwall and SurgeX, except they added an MOV for the last stage. I don't have the time to get into a back-and-forth discussion with you on this. *I provided links to make it easier for you to see that the patents are still active and haven't expired decades ago as you stated. Also companies cannot copy a patent outright*. You are free to believe whatever it is that you want. Have a good day.


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## Shinsetta

zurak said:


> It's clear to me that you don't understand patents or how they work. It's beyond the scope of this forum to get into a deeper discussion on patent law.


I've taken Patent law in law school. Have you?

It's clear to me that _you_ don't understand patents or how they work.

Let me give you some simple examples of antitrust violations that I am stating from mere memory.

1. You have to make products that must be able to be repaired with 3rd party aftermarket parts. The company can't create proprietary parts that they could only sell. That's an antitrust violation. That is why printer manufacturers, for example, _must_ allow aftermarket companies to create and sell ink for their inkjet printers.

2. Another example is that you can't force consumers to buy one of your products because it can only be sold with a product that is patented. This is called "tying", an antitrust violation and this is what the court determined Microsoft was effectively doing when it included Internet Explorer with Microsoft Windows. Since Internet Explorer came with Microsoft Windows, the claim was correctly made that Microsoft was "forcing" consumers to pay for Internet Explorer and other software through the cost of Microsoft Windows. That is why Microsoft had to separate the two products thereafter. You didn't _have_ to use Internet Explorer anymore after the lawsuit. Other browsers were offered.

In the Zero Surge v Furman case, Furman was, of course, allowed to use the Series Mode technology. The patent on that expired. Of course it can copy that expired patent outright. What do you think expired means?! That wasn't the issue. Zero Surge didn't claim that Furman wasn't allowed to use Series Mode tech. Rather, it made the claim that Furman was calling its product Series Mode technology when it wasn't. The court agreed with this claim because the court agreed that Series Mode tech implies that MOVs aren't used. Do you get it now?

You claim that companies can extend their patents by adding new tech to the old tech. You do realize that if companies can just add new patented tech on expired patents (and thus, prevent competitors from using them), then every company in the world would keep doing this and patents would never effectively expire. You really think patent law would allow this? C'mon, of course not. This is common sense.

I admit I'm not an expert on patents but you don't even have minimal knowledge; yet you spout stuff as if you are an expert and assume you know how they work. Your ignorance is astounding. I'm sorry but it's true. Looking at your other posts, you're a type of person that won't ever admit he's wrong, even when patent evidence (sorry for the puns but had to do it) is right in your face.

Furman does use Series Mode technology except it just added an extra precautionary MOV. It doesn't prevent the Series Mode technology from working when the MOV burns out. That's silly.


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## zurak

Shinsetta said:


> In the Zero Surge v Furman case, Furman was, of course, allowed to use the Series Mode technology. The patent on that expired. Of course it can copy that expired patent outright. What do you think expired means?! That wasn't the issue. Zero Surge didn't claim that Furman wasn't allowed to use Series Mode tech. Rather, it made the claim that Furman was calling its product Series Mode technology when it wasn't. The court agreed with this claim because the court agreed that Series Mode tech implies that MOVs aren't used. Do you get it now?
> 
> I admit I'm not an expert on patents ...
> 
> Furman does use Series Mode technology except it just added an extra precautionary MOV. It doesn't prevent the Series Mode technology from working when the MOV burns out. That's silly.


Furman was sued by SurgeX and settled their lawsuit in May 2005. It was discussed on this forum here: Furman sued by Surgex for false advertising

_Furman was sued by SurgeX for trademark infringement and false advertising concerning the use of the term Series Mode_

At the time, Patents governing Series Mode technology were still ACTIVE. I provided you links to the patents. Did you open them? If not, here's a snippet of the expiration date










Are you suggesting that Furman could do an outright copy of a patented technology which was still ACTIVE and not get sued for it? Seriously? If so, what's the purpose of a patent? 

Note that shortly after the lawsuit was settled Furman announced their SMP+ technology. Here are two links to that announcement in June 2005:






Furman Sound to Implement SMP+ Technology


Furman Sound will announce at InfoComm 2005, held at the Las Vegas Convention Center June 8 to 10, 2005, that it will implement an exclusive new power conditioning and protection technology, SMP+, across its product line.




www.mixonline.com









Furman Sound debuts compact power conditioner


The AC-215 protects against power spikes and surges




www.tvtechnology.com





This is how Furman's SMP+ technology was described in the July 2007 issue of Sound & Vision.

"Furman’s Series Multi-Stage Protection Plus (SMP+) addresses some of the shortcomings of traditional MOV-based protectors by employing a variety of circuits to clamp, absorb, and dissipate transient voltages without having the device sacrifice itself. The company claims that MOVs used in a properly designed circuit will not fail. 

Furman’s SMP+ circuitry takes *pages from both shunt-and series- mode playbooks and adds its own twist*. Along with a high-voltage MOV and a high-amperage thermo-fuse varistor, SMP+ uses a tuned circuit that includes series inductors, a bridge rectifier (which con-verts AC to DC power), and high-voltage capacitors."



https://zerosurge.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Sound_and_Vision_July2007_Zero_Surge.pdf



As stated earlier competitors to companies marketing patented Series Mode technology have 3 choices:

a. they can try and lease Series Mode technology,
b. build something better than Series Mode technology, or
c. change just enough of the Series Mode technology patents so as not to be an outright copy. 

Many have chosen to change enough of the patented Series Mode technology so as not to be an outright copy. Per the description of SMP+ above, Furman not only does that but adds an MOV to their modified circuit which is not the patented Series Mode technology. Their modified circuit cannot handle surges on their own and has to have a sacrificial MOV to deal with the residual surge energy. 

A 3rd patent (see above) is also still active and governs the technology behind Series Mode technology today. It too is still ACTIVE.










The mere expiration of a patent does not mean that anybody can freely practice everything in the patent until they are satisfied (preferably by a lawyer's opinion letter) that what they intend to do is (a) legal, and (b) does not violate any other IP rights.

You are free to believe whatever it is that you want. Those who read this later can decide for themselves. Furman would have been sued for patent infringement had they included the same patented Series Mode technology which was still ACTIVE. They haven't but you seem to know something about their technology that they themselves don't know. I agree that you're not an expert on patent law. Have a good day.


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## Shinsetta

Uh...I'm not going to waste my time reading through your entire post and all the other literature you added to save face. Look. If I really wanted to know what happened, I could just bring up the actual case and decision on my computer but I'm not going to waste hours reading it. Furman wouldn't use Series Mode technology if they weren't actually using it. It's common sense. Your 2nd sentence actually explains the lawsuit:

_Furman was sued by SurgeX for trademark infringement and false advertising concerning the use of the term Series Mode._

You do realize that it was _SurgeX _that sued for trademark and false advertising. _Zero Surge_ was the one who held the patents. Oops. Mommy, I think I wet my pants.

I'm not an expert on patent law but I know it much better than you. You apparently have no clue. Now, go and clean yourself. It's getting smelly in here. Looks like you did some potty too.


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## Mike Lang

Maybe you two could exchange phone numbers and do this privately.


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## thefatguyslim

I am a patent examiner, so I think I can shed light on some confusion of how patents work. I'll try to quote U.S. Code, and any other sources, as much as possible for your own independent verification. However, below are my own personal opinions as a private citizen and in _no way represents the USPTO_.

Brief background: A patent is an exchange for a public disclosure of a new and useful invention for a government grant of exclusive rights to the owner of the patent to make, use, and sell the disclosed invention (see 35 USC 101 and 112). The patent owner then has the option to use government enforcement through the courts to defend these exclusive rights (see 35 USC 271). Remember, patent rights are in exchange for the public disclosure of the invention, so that public knowledge can be increased to "promote the progress of science and useful arts" (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 8). This is in contrast to trade secrets, which are not publically disclosed and therefore are not granted government enforceable rights (see Trade secret policy | USPTO) - though, the government does protect trade secrets from theft in state and federal law. But an invention cannot be both a patent and a trade secret - they are mutually exclusive.



zurak said:


> You say you went to a website and saw that the company was making a particular type of Series Mode filter in 1989 (the patent was actually filed in September 1988) and correctly assumed it expired 20 years later (i.e. September 2008), but the inventor did not stop with one or two patents, rather he continued to improve upon the design at least twice and patented those improvements and those patents are still in effect today which also include the works of his prior patents, *AND* cannot be easily copied.


As you note, the patent term is generally 20 years. After which, the patent term expires, and so does the government's enforcement of exclusivity to make, use and sell that invention. So the invention in effect becomes public property. If an inventor makes improvements upon the invention, the inventor may be granted a patent for the new and useful improvement (see again 35 USC 101), and the patent owner is then granted government enforcement on excusive rights to make, use and sell the improved invention. However, the original, non-improved invention is not "included" or "covered" by the patent for the improved invention. The original, non-improved invention is public property after the expiration of the patent, and now anyone can make, use and sell the original, non-improved invention. The public just cannot make, use or sell the improved invention. Otherwise, as Shinsetta rightly pointed out, patents would never really expire, since an inventor would just keep improving his invention to maintain rights to all his previous patents. 

For a completely made up example using arbitrary numbers, Company A invents a circuit for handling surge protection in a new and novel way and is granted a patent A1, which they later sell under the trademark "Starbrite" technology. Then, 15 years later, Company A makes an improvement to this circuit by adding a new filter that greatly simplifies the circuit and achieves a 15% improvement in let through voltage and is granted another patent A2. An additional 5 years later, patent A1 expires. Now, Company B enters the market and are free to make, use and sell a surge protector utilizing the circuit in patent A1, because that patent has expired. However, Company B is not allowed to use the improved circuit that adds the filter in Patent A2. However, Company B later determines that by adding a MOV in series with the circuit they can improve let out voltage by 5% and decrease the specs of the components in the original circuit, thereby reducing costs. Company B then applies for and is granted a patent B for this "improvement". 

In patent law, "improvement" is a neutral term and really just means that it achieves the stated goal of the inventor - which could be making a product "stronger, cheaper, cleaner, faster, lighter, smaller, more durable or more efficient" (see _DyStar Textilfarben BmbH & Co. Deutschland KG v. C.H. Patrick Co_., 80 USPQ2d at 1651). Subjective "improvement" is based on each individual use case, and determined by the needs of the end user. While one user may need adequate protection at a low price point, another may need the 10% efficiency for a special use case and willing to pay extra. The first user would see a price reduction as an improvement, and the second user would see the efficiency increase as an improvement. 



zurak said:


> The mere expiration of a patent does not mean that anybody can freely practice everything in the patent until they are satisfied (preferably by a lawyer's opinion letter) that what they intend to do is (a) legal, and (b) does not violate any other IP rights.


For the most part, there are 4 major types of intellectual property. 1. Patents, 2. Trade Secrets, 3. Copyrights, and 4. Trademarks. As stated above, patents and trade secrets are mutually exclusive. In the above example, Company A gets patent A1 for the surge protection circuit. They cannot, by law, then claim the circuit as a trade secret after patent A1 expires, because they didn't "make reasonable efforts to maintain its secrecy" when Company A made the necessary public disclosure to be granted patent rights (see again Trade secret policy | USPTO; see also 18 USC 1839 and Trade secret - Wikipedia).

Copyright does not apply here, unless the circuit relies upon firmware that is copyrighted. However, Company B would be allowed to write their own firmware to accomplish the same electrical function (see 17 USC 101; also Software copyright - Wikipedia). 

Trademark has absolutely nothing to do with an invention or how it works. "Starbrite" may be a trademark that Company A uses to distinguish itself in the market. Company B would not be allowed to sell any product (even the circuit in expired Patent A1) using Company A's trademark, but that doesn't stop Company B from selling the circuit from Patent A1 and/or Patent B under a different trademark, such as "Surge-Be-Gone". Again, trademarks have nothing to do with the physical invention, and in fact, the USPTO will reject a patent application that includes a trademark to describe an invention in the claims because it "cannot be used properly to identify any particular material or product" (see MPEP 2173.05(u)).


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## smoothtlk

thefatguyslim said:


> I am a patent examiner, so I think I can shed light on some confusion of how patents work. ...).


thanx for taking the time to share your experience.


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## Steak House

who knew a thread on surge protectors would merit 40 pages...


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