# DaLite HighPower Angle Pictures and AB compare to High Contrast Matte White



## jw15851

OK. A lot of people have been wanting this. This site has helped me out a lot in my decision making, and I hope this helps to "pass it along". Due to reasons I won't bore anyone with yet, I ended up with a Dalite Model B High Contrast Matte White, and a High Power Screen.


I'm shooting a 1HD (Z1) Ceiling mounted.


What follows are is a short review, and a series of pictures comparing the HighPower to the HighContrast Matte White. And, a picture showing the brightness change at extreme angles.


I have a short AVI Movie also I'll link to, showing the change in brightness as I rapidly move around the room.



The Short Review:


The HCMW gives better blacks. The black bars visible on the screen when watching 4:3 video on my 16:9 projector, are almost black, and not at all noticeable. You also have complete viewing location flexibility, with no loss in brightness. But, you can't easily clean the screen, and it isn't as bright as the highpower. Waves are noticeable on this screen.


The Highpower does change in brightness as you move around the room, but very minimally. It seems to fluctuate about 10% visually from one extreme to the other. NOT AT ALL as bad as a rear projection TV. Not even close. Blacks are a bit less black, but the picture is more vibrant, colors pop more, and it can be cleaned. Waves are noticeable, but much less so, and only when scenes are panning and your eyes happen to track over a wave in the screen. It is much much better in that regard.


My vote? I'm definitely keeping the Highpower. Can you sit on the floor and watch TV? YES. Does it get brighter when you stand up from a seated position? (ceiling mount projector) yeah a bit, but not as much as you might think. I'd say you lose about 5% sitting, and another 5% when on the floor. (see movie if you want to see it in 'live action')


What follows are the images, and a link to the movie. (hopefully if I can get it uploaded)


Enjoy and i hope this helps people who were in the same boat I was, unable to decide between screens. All they hype about High Power, is true. It really is as good as everyone says.


-Jason W


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## jw15851

Can you guess which side is the High Power?


All the images here have been cropped and sized for web viewing. I've made NO color corrections or brightness contrast adjustments. The camera was set in manual mode so the settings wouldn't change and a picture was taken with screen A and one with screen B. I then overlaid them together in photoshop. Again. No color corrections or adjustments.


(Please forgive the darkness of the images, but the difference is still obvious)


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## jw15851

Same specs as above. This is S-VHS frozen on Tivo. Of... the best SciFi show on TV... Stargate SG1...


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## jw15851

This really shows just how little change there is from one viewing extreme to the other.


Image is an overlay showing both a very extreme side shot and a dead on shot of the HighPower. Again, manual camera settings, the only thing changing is the viewing angle.


NO color corrections, or changes made to the image other than cropping and downsizing.


-Jason


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## jw15851

And lastly the movie.


Be patient with this one. The quality is kinda sucky. it was done with a still camera, that has the optional 'short movie' mode.


i've compressed the video down a bit more, so it loads faster, but the idea is still there, and it gives a good idea of the brightness change. In fact, in person, it looks much less dramatic than even the camera shows. To my eyes as I moved around, I didn't notice that much of a change. Electronics/cameras/etc. always are more sensitive to such things than human eyes are.


Anyway, the movie starts out just below eye level, while standing center. Moves rapidly up even with the projector, back down to about eye level, then rapidly to the right extreme, then all the way to the left extreme, back to center, and ends in the seated position, eye level.


You'll notice from standing to seated position, there is very little change at all visible, even to the camera.


Hope this helps people out. Here's the link:

http://users2.ev1.net/~jw15851/hpangles.avi 


good luck all!


-Jason W


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## Riverplace

This is excellent!


I have both screens. I tried to posted similar a similar review but the pictures in this one tell it all.


Take it from another person who has both screens: what you see here is 99% close to what you'd see in person.


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## Riverplace

This is excellent!


I have both screens. I tried to post similar a similar review but the pictures in this one tell it all.


Take it from another person who has both screens: what you see here is 99% close to what you'd see in person.


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## JHouse

Very good job. I find your verbal description to be right on, with my experience. I'm watching that psycho Hitler thing on HD right now, and I am sitting outside the edge of the screen. Looks great! Totally practical to watch from here.


Your movie is portraying clearly more drop-off than is seen in real life, by an order of magnitude. I suspect our eyes adjust very rapidly when we move around, and the drop-off appears to be much less than it actually is. That's the only way I can explain how a dumb camera sees such a huge difference that is not apparent to the eye.


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## jw15851

Here's one more picture for the bunch. This is the same image from MonstersInc, but this time in photoshop I did the overlay as horizontal bands. The difference between the two screens is even more dramatic when compared in this way.


Enjoy all!


-Jason W


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## rogo

I am hesitant to extrapolate from photos of a screen, but in these images, it appears the High Power has better shadow detail, even if the "blacks" are inferior.


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## tbacos

Jason, thanks for the review - exactly what I have been looking for. Based on what I see, I am soooo glad I ordered the HighPower - mine should be here today. Couple questions: first, is your HighPower also a Model B? (just wondering if the Model C I ordered will exhibit any of the same barely visible wrinkles you mentioned); second, what's your screen size and PJ distance to screen? Your pics look phenomenal, much better than what I remember from briefly seeing the Z1 in person.


JHouse, thanks for the push. Your "stop worrying and get the HighPower" post last week was just what I needed.


-tony


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## BSN

Thank you for this thread!


You just made up my mind for me!



-Joel


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## JHouse

Group hug.


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## jcebedo1

If the projector is table mounted, would the angle changes be more dramatic since it is brighter than ceiling mounted?


James


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## JHouse

Nope. I know this from standing directly under my pj and moving around intentionally to see the effect. No biggy.


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## jw15851

Good question... I'm not sure. I have a 2 year old, and another one on the way. I don't have the guts to have the projector anywhere near where anything under 5 feet tall could possibly touch it.  My gut feeling is no. Because when standing under the projector, the effect is the same as if you were standing above it. Your eyes are basically roughly centered on the screen. If the projector is up or down it dosen't matter at that point. So the pictures or movie should be accurate because they were mostly taken standing as I moved around the room.


This is going to sound silly, but off the top of my head i can't rember what my screen size is. It's a standard 'common' size just under 100" diagional I think 96", and somthing like 52" tall. (16x9 to match the projector)


The projector is mounted such that when the zoom is all the way back for the widest screen, it basically fills the screen. (just a little too small actually, but for this discussion it'll work)


The lens shift correction of the 1HD allows a lot more ease of mounting. Basically just get it close, then dial in the screen location.


-Jason


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## tbacos

JW, the standard 16:9 screen in that range is 92x52 - 106" diagonal.


-tony


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## MaxC

I read that the differences is not how close you are to the height of the projector (ie standing up or sitting down) that affects the percieve brighness on the screen, but how high your projector is from the screen center. In other words if your projector is 2 feet above the top edge of the screen, it will not be as bright as if it were just above or below screen center. Did I read this info incorrectly?


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## JHouse

Actually, and theoretically, because it is retro-reflective, the projector itself has the best seat, no matter where it is. That's why ambient light from the side window doesn't come to you on the couch, because it (mostly) reflects back out the window from whence it came. So it really is the distance you are from the pj lens. Theoretically. The reality doesn't seem to be so critical.


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## MaxC

Exactly, so if your projector is 2ft above the top edge of the screen...wouldn't most of the light be angled back up and when you are sitting you are much lower. Whereas, if the projector is just off screen center it appear much brighter...right?


I think I confused you, because I was not trying to say the side to side brightness would be more dramatic based on where the projector is mounted.


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## JHouse

You are correct. You sure don't want to mount it way above the screen, or you will have a pretty bright ceiling. You want it in the vicinity of you, if you want the whole Magilla (gain-wise that is).


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## sushi

Excellent pictures, movie, and the narrative, Jason! Thanks!!!










Regarding the brightness change shown in the movie, I would say this is about what I see subjectively on my High Power. I do see about this much of change when I QUICKLY walk around.


However, human eyes have this amazing capability of quickly adapting to the overall luminance of what you are looking at. So if you are actually watching a movie, the perceived brightness change will very quickly "wean off" within a minute or so. Again, another key thing here is, as you see in the movie, the brightness changes perfectly UNIFORMLY across the screen. No unpleasant hot spotting or super-narrow vertical viewing angle often seen in the RPTVs.


FYI, I am projecting onto a 120"-diagonal, from the Yamaha LPX-500 table-mounted with the lens center at 42" above the floor (about my eye level when I sit up tall).


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## jw15851

I'm happy to help folks out, I made my decision on the highpower based completely on the opinions of the people here in this forum. When I ordered, though I was still nervous about the whole viewing angle issue. (I did NOT want it to be like a rear projection TV) And I wished there were some pictures, or a movie showing a comparison. When I ended up with two screens (temporary until I send the mis-shipped one back) I saw my chance 


On paper, according to Dalite, and many people who sell the screens, this screen shouldn't work this well for ceiling mounted use. But I assure you that it absolutely does.


Regarding the questions about brightness depending on where the projector is mounted. The comments are correct that, the image will appear brightest, when your eyes are nearest the projector, since thats where the light is coming from, and reflecting back to.


This is why in the movie, when it first begins, I bring the camera up even with the projector. You can see it briefly come into the frames from the top. You'll notice that when you go up that extra little bit, the difference in brightness is not very noticeable.


The greater difference is when moving from side to side. Why? Because I'm moving rapidly across the room, rather than up a few feet. (much more distance off center)


And indeed in the movie, I was moving very quickly. (I had 15 seconds to go from standing, up to projector, back to standing, all the way right, all the way left, back to center, and then to sitting position.


I don't know anyone except maybe my 2 year old that would possibly move that quickly through the room. My point? People viewing the screen will hardly notice the brightness change, because in all likelihood they will be moving slower, and the eyes will adapt to the difference quickly. Will you still notice a difference yeah. But not as much as the movie shows.


I also agree that the brightness of the screen is uniform as you move around. Evenly changing in brightness ever so slightly.


-Jason W


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## conanb

I am using a Da-Lite hipower screen with a ceiling mounted Sony 23HT.

I prefer the ceiling mount to a "floor" mounted projector with this screen.

The retro-reflective nature of the screen is better with ceiling mounted projectors.

Great screen!


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## stingray999

Probably I will go with the High Power screen - if I am lucky enough to find a good reseller here in Vamcouver.


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## jw15851

Hit Dalite's web site, I'm sure they can hook you up with someone in your area


-Jason


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## JHouse

Try the AVS guys. They can get it to you for cheap and maybe they will be able to afford to upgrade their server again.


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## sushi

Yes, buy online, stingray.


I bought my custom-masked High Power from the ProjectorShopper (with a better price than what AVS gave me), and I was pretty happy with the whole transaction with Andrew the salesperson. Most importantly, my screen was made exactly to my specs and arrived in a pristine physical condition. I understand that VisualApex is another popular and reputable vendor. At any rate, I do not see why you have to buy it from a local dealer (unless they can give you a great price, which I would say is unlikely). The screen will be ground-shipped all the way from the factory anyway.


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## stingray999

Just don't want to go through the extra cost (which you don't know until the shipment arrives) of Canadian Custom and heard cases that the duty is over 50% of the purchased price. That's Canadian government. You guys are lucky!


Thanks for the information!


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## sushi

Oh, sorry I did not read your post carefully enough (or I forgot where the border is)! LOL


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## mbaxter

I have done quite a bit of experimenting with High Power and different types of projector mounting. The short of it is, to get best results, minimize the height difference between your eyes and the projector lens. The smaller the angle between projection axis and your viewing axis, the higher the gain. You should not let this angle be more than 15 or 20 degrees. I can tell you from personal experience that beyond this, the gain is only about 1. Might as well use a Parkland!


For table mount, you'd want something that looks like this:










If you're going to ceiling mount, I would recommend you try to mount the thing as low as is practicable, to minimize the angle, like this:











You can certainly get acceptable results from a ceiling mounted projector and High Power screen, but you need to have the projector as low as possible which means the screen is going to have to be pretty low as well, since most projectors have at least a few inches of vertical offset. Unfortunately, bringing the screen height down may be a BAD THING if your original reason for ceiling mounting the projector was to spare it from destruction at the hands of children!







Instead of a ruined projector, you can end up with a ruined High Power.


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## Daniel Hutnicki




> Quote:
> Same specs as above. This is S-VHS frozen on Tivo. Of... the best SciFi show on TV... Stargate SG1...



One correction, Farscape is the best Scifi show on TV


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## sushi




> Quote:
> I have done quite a bit of experimenting with High Power and different types of projector mounting. The short of it is, to get best results, minimize the height difference between your eyes and the projector lens. The smaller the angle between projection axis and your viewing axis, the higher the gain. You should not let this angle be more than 15 or 20 degrees. I can tell you from personal experience that beyond this, the gain is only about 1. Might as well use a Parkland!



My setup is very similar in geometry to the top diagram above. I just uploaded some daytime photos showing my installation in this thread . Comments from you guys very welcome.


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## mdmaclean




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by stingray999_
> *Just don't want to go through the extra cost (which you don't know until the shipment arrives) of Canadian Custom and heard cases that the duty is over 50% of the purchased price. That's Canadian government. You guys are lucky!
> 
> 
> Thanks for the information!*



I ordered my Da-Lite High Power and the shipping/duty costs were:

$70USD Shipping

$52CDN Customs Broker

PST+GST.

0% Duty (made in US, NAFTA)


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## MaxC

I have added a picture I took of the same scene from my HCCV and put it on this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...07#post2255907 


The difference in pictures alone is why I say it is hard to compare the screens from pictures. The High power looks better than the HCMW in the picture but if the picture was brighter or closer to what I see, it may favor the HCMW for bringing up better shadow detail or darker colors. Or bring up negatives in the High Power like lighter blacks or some washed out/ blooming colors.


It is impossible to make a decision based on pictures and even samples are mis-leading at times. The best thing you can do is to see as many screens as you can and even then, things like ambient light or different projectors, or calibration can sway one's decision of one screen over another.


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## JHouse




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sushi_
> *My setup is very similar in geometry to the top diagram above. I just uploaded some daytime photos showing my installation in this thread . Comments from you guys very welcome.*



And mine is very similar to the bottom picture. The pj is about 7 feet from the floor, and my eyes are about 3 feet from the floor, and the screen is about 2 feet from the floor. I'm in the zone! (or is it cone?)


I drew out this same type of diagram when I was fretting over the ceiling mount/high-power combo. It came out just fine. Anyone in front of the screen gets the bright picture.


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## jw15851

someone is asking about HCMW and another about HighPower... *bump*


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## jw15851

bump... from deep within the grave


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## mdmaclean

My Hi-Power is still a favorite of mine...


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## PerryH

If your projector is ceiling mounted I doubt there would be much difference between the High Power and just plain old white.


The benefit of the highpower is getting reflected over your head. Get on a ladder near the level of the projector and you'll see what I'm talking about.


(yeah - I know this is a really old thread.)


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## jw15851

Bump from deep within the grave.


-J


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## mdmaclean




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by PerryH_
> *If your projector is ceiling mounted I doubt there would be much difference between the High Power and just plain old white.
> 
> 
> The benefit of the highpower is getting reflected over your head. Get on a ladder near the level of the projector and you'll see what I'm talking about.
> 
> 
> (yeah - I know this is a really old thread.)*



A friend recently bought one, after seeing mine (in all its ceiling mounted glory!)


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## mbaxter

jw15851: you never did tell us how high your projector is mounted.


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## raymondeast

now i am confused... my screen will be 6' at the top of the screen and my projector the z2 will be ceiling mounted at 6' 3"....my room has total control of lighting i will be sitting back 12' and the projector will be 13.5' back from the screen...should i get the hp or high contrast da lite?


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## jw15851

I say go for the High Power and I don't think you will find anyone here that has a high power, that doesn't love it and wishes they had a different screen type.


Very few people had actually done a full size comparison between the two, which is why when I had the opportunity and both screens in front of me, I did it. Usually someone will get a screen, and say "yeah it's great" "my HCMW has great blacks" or "my high power is bright and doesn't show waves". This provided a more 'side by side' objective comparison. (in the sense that I was keeping one of the screens, and I needed to choose which one)


Regarding the question of the projector height, I'll have to go home and measure the height. But if I had to guess i'd say about 14" from the ceiling. The height of the projector really isn't relevant though if it is ceiling mounted. When you get up right behind the projector (standing on a chair) you can see a significant increase in brightness. (this is why it's 'officially' suggested that projectors be table mounted when using this screen. But even when watching off axis, the difference in brightness compared to the HCMW screen is remarkable. (which is why they are so popular here) Just normal movement around the room, results in very very little visual change. Your already out of the 'ideal' viewing cone anyway, so unless you drop the projector down about 5 feet, + or - 6" or even i'd say 12" will have little or no visual impact any more than slouching down in a chair a foot lower would. (once you are out of the 'ideal' viewing area (on the ceiling), brightness levels stay pretty consistent)


The bottom line is, it is brighter than the other screen was. And because of it's reflective nature, if you have some ambient lighting in the room, unless the light source is in front of, or directly in line with the viewer, it will affect the picture much less than with a HCMW or other non reflective screen. We have two windows in the room, one right next to the screen. They have mini blinds on them, no curtains, or black out cloths, and we can watch TV during the day fine. No it doesn't look as good as evening viewing, but is certainly watchable.


I have track lighting in the room, that directs light to various areas in the room, but not allowing any spill from the cans to shine on the screen. Subtle adjustments (10-40% brightness level changes) in the lighting have surprising little effect on the picture. (much less washout) The paper on the wall I was using first, and the HCMW screen were both immediately and noticeably affected by addition of ANY ambient light in the room, off axis or not.


So needless to say, in my opinion the High Power's benefits (ambient light rejection, brighter screen, less waves showing, and the ability to clean it) far out weigh the benefits of the HCMW (better blacks).


The negatives? HP screens have worse blacks because more light is reflecting back at you. If you use a DLP projector, or have a higher contrast ratio on the projector then this will be improved. The screen is just reflecting back what your projector is sending out. I found if you calibrate with AVIA, much of that is compensated for and I have no problem at all with my black levels.

HCMW screens can't be cleaned (according to DaLite), light up like a christmas tree with any off axis light in the room, are not as bright, and much more plainly show waves/wrinkles in the screen.)


I'm not trying to start a flame war with anyone who has a HCMW. If HCMW owners are happy with theirs, then great. It just wasn't for me for the reasons I stated. These just my opinions and non-scientific observations. 


-Jason W


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## mbaxter

Actually jw, the critical thing with a High Power is how many feet above the viewer's head the projector is. I can confirm, having done side by side comparisons, that with a projector mounted at 9.5ft up (10ft ceiling in living room), the High Power gave a noticably dimmer image than a Parkland Plastic screen. I have owned High Power, Video Spectra, and Parkland Plastic screens, and have been able to directly compare them all to each other.


The High Power is a nice material, but unfortunately, it's advantages completely disappear when you have a high ceiling mounted projector. I'll bet your projector is 7 or 8 ft up, maybe even lower, which is why you still get nice gain from the screen.


I highly recommend HP for people with low ceilings or shelf/table mounted setups. But not for people with high ceilings, unless they are willing to install a ceiling mount that drops down 2 or 3 ft (which is awkward and unsightly).


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## mbaxter




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by raymondeast_
> *now i am confused... my screen will be 6' at the top of the screen and my projector the z2 will be ceiling mounted at 6' 3"....my room has total control of lighting i will be sitting back 12' and the projector will be 13.5' back from the screen...should i get the hp or high contrast da lite?*



Be confused no more - the High Power is perfect for your setup! Get one and ENJOY.


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## mdmaclean




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mbaxter_
> *But not for people with high ceilings, unless they are willing to install a ceiling mount that drops down 2 or 3 ft (which is awkward and unsightly).*



Because of my high ceilings, that is exactly what I did. I used a professional mount for my Z1, and it looks great.


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## mbaxter

mdmaclean - are you referring to this picture of yours:


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## jw15851

can you tell me how you get the picture to display in the message instead of the system defaulting it to a link? I'll include a pic of my mount...


-J


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## raymondeast

ok guys is there a huge difference in picture brightness with the high power over hc...i have no ambient lighting at all in the room.....

and is there a huge loss of black levels on the high power, like i say my z2 will be at 6' 5" ceilling mounted and the top of my screen will be about the 6' mark i will be back 12'...... since i have no ambient lighting at all in the room is it still recomended to go with the high power?


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## jw15851

raymondeast,


look at the pictures that I posted at the beginning of the thread, to see a clear idea of the differences in brightness.


I would say if you have 100% light control, no ambient lighting, (meaning when the projector is on, the room is always always dark), then go ahead with the HCMW as it will improve your blacks. For many of us, we need a little light in the room, particularly in my case where I don't have a dedicated HT, and the wife wants to be able to read a magazine, or not fall over a coffee table when walking through the living room.


Regarding the post that suggested that the brightness is affected in a greater means by height than by side angle, I disagree. The screen isn't polarized, and will reflect light back in any direction from which the photons originate. A much greater off axis angle is attained by moving the far left or right than by either raising or lowering the position of your eyes your eyes, or the projector, by a matter of feet or inches. To illustrate this, reference the small movie I linked to at the beginning of the thread. Notice that the brightness difference is much more subtle in the movie when I rapidly raised or lowered the camera (a difference of about 3-4 feet in height), vs. the difference when I moved left or right off axis (a difference of 10 feet or so in each direction).


But again, we're going back to placing too much emphasis on the brightness change. People reading this will envision the effect they see on rear projection TV's, which is simply not the case. The changes are very subtle, and the added 'pop' of the color, and over brightness difference vs. the HCMW more than makes up for the narrow 'ideal' viewing cone. IMHO


Again, you CAN watch TV sitting on the floor, laying on the floor, or sitting across the room at as sharp an angle to the screen as you can manage, and the picture is STILL vibrant. (look at the extreme angle pic) (One can not do this with a RPTV) So if there is any concern to be had with the HighPower, let it be over the black levels vs. that of the HCMW. Not the brightness changes. Everyone worries about this (including myself), until they get the screen and find that it really isn't an issue at all.


-Jason W


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## mdmaclean




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mbaxter_
> *mdmaclean - are you referring to this picture of yours:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



I actually lowered it about 8 inches after that, I bought an extension from peerless (my ceiling is about 9').


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## mbaxter




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jw15851_
> *Regarding the post that suggested that the brightness is affected in a greater means by height than by side angle, I disagree. The screen isn't polarized, and will reflect light back in any direction from which the photons originate.*



You're right that moving left and right is just as bad, if not worse, than being far below the projector. This is quite true. It's all about the angle between the axis of projection and your eyes.


The worst thing is when you have the projector about 9' or more high, and then you're sitting off to the side as well. In that scenario, even a matte white screen looks far better than HP. Yet another reason not to use a HP screen when the projector is at a height of more than 8ft. Not only will you lose gain from the height differential, but the additional loss from being left or right of center will result in an even dimmer image still. And this is definitely not good when you've already lost most of your gain just by having the projector too far above your head.


Like I said, I've done back to back comparisons of full sized High Power, Video Spectra, and Parkland Plastic screens, using a ceiling mounted projector (with the projector lens at about 9.5ft above the floor). I can tell you honestly that with a projector mounted this high, the High Power is inferior to even a unity gain material. Compared to Video Spectra it looked even worse.


I notice that everyone who claims the HP works fine with ceiling mounted projectors has theirs mounted relatively low (less than 8ft, in most cases about 6ft). That's an important distinction.


New buyers need to be aware of the facts and those of us that have experience with various products owe it to them to give objective, solid advice.


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## mbaxter




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by raymondeast_
> *ok guys is there a huge difference in picture brightness with the high power over hc...i have no ambient lighting at all in the room.....
> 
> and is there a huge loss of black levels on the high power, like i say my z2 will be at 6' 5" ceilling mounted and the top of my screen will be about the 6' mark i will be back 12'...... since i have no ambient lighting at all in the room is it still recomended to go with the high power?*



Your projector is only going to be 6 ' 5" high? Dude, like I said before, the High Power is a no-brainer in this situation! You're one of those lucky people whose setup is perfect for it. Just get one and be happy. Trust me I know what I'm talking about. You will get a gain of about 2 which will look excellent and you won't see any waves.


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## raymondeast

thanks guys i am sold i will get the high power... now all i have to do is order my z2 and wait for 2 months because it is back ordered up hear in the great white north..........


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## threed123

My experience with a Benq 8700 mounted at 7 feet and just above the screen edge is that the best seat is within 20 degrees of center when sitting down behind the projector for the High Power. The viewing cone horizontally is wider when used as a table mount--as I did my CRT. It's still very acceptable. I am replacing my High Power for a bigger Draper m2500 because of what I found in testing the two. You might enjoy these test images as well.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=361298 


Bob


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## DaViD Boulet

Hey guys,


I'm likely getting the BenQ 8700 and this screen (hipower) has been recommended. After reading this thread I can see why.


Question...with a single-chip DLP like the BenQ, does the hi-gain/brightness of this screen exacorbate rainbows? I saw rainbows on the firehawk with the IF 7200 and they were *bad* to my eyes. The Sharp 10K on the Firehawk produced no such problems. Any thoughts about the relative brightness/rainbow issue with the BenQ 8700/hipower combination???


Thanks!


dave


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## threed123

David,


The brightness appears to make the rainbows more prominent in my eyes, mainly because it boosts the white areas that cause them to be seen in my opinion. If the 7200 with firehawk was "bad", then I think the Benq will be the same unfortunately. You have to weigh the alternatives as I have. I'm getting used to it, but I sometimes wish I went with the Sony HS-20, but after hearing about the verticle line problems it's a matter of what you are willing to live with. The Benq through DVI is spectacular despite the rainbows, but they do take that feeling away of "being there" as they bring your eyes back to the screen surface for a moment.


It's an ugly decision to make for those of us that are bothered by them...


Bob


----------



## DaViD Boulet

Thanks Bob,


what screen are you using...the hi-power? I'm assuming worst-case I could calibrate the BenQ to be a tad dimmer and/or use an ND filter? Since the Sharp 10K looked *fabulous* on the firehawk with basically no rainbow problems...and looked plenty bright...I'm assuming somewhere in here there's a balance that could be acheived? Would the hipower put me too bright to ever acheive an image that wasn't constantly smacking me over the head with rainbows?


I can handle a few rainbows here or there...but that Infocus 7200/firehawk combo was giving me like one a minute!


-dave


----------



## threed123

Dave,


I have a Draper M2500 2.5+ gain angular reflective, 126" diag 16:9 coming this week. Yes,I broke away from the pack on that screen, but after comparing a sample, I really like it, although some say it is prone to streaks.


I am currently using a 120" 4:3 High Power leftover from my floor mounted CRT. It's great, but I don't like the limited cone it creates for ceiling mounting and chair watching. I need a very wide cone for my seating area, and the Draper can handle that nicely. I also sit more than 16 feet back, so I opted for a much bigger screen.


We'll see--will let you know. If I were you, I stick with a white wall or cheap plastic material for a week to see how bad a 1.0 screen is for you. If you don't see rainbows, you might want to stick with that gain and get a Carada--my next choice.


Bob


----------



## hikarate

Lots of people are considering the High Power for pulldown because of the limited waves. i actually purchased one at the beginning of this month. Didn't know about this thread then, but glad I found it now, this is excellent information concerning this screen, Thanks jw15851 for all the hard work! Excellent Read!


----------



## jw15851

No problem. I like to bump it up every once in a while as the same questions regarding the issues/benefits with the high power seem to come up frequently. Hope it helps folks out.


-Jason W


----------



## Reveille

threed123


Did you ever get your big screen. I am considering a 120-133" and would like to go with the benQ but worry about not being bright enough. Do you have any screen shots with the new screen available.


Thanks

Pat


----------



## Robert Holloway

I recently purchased a Hi power for a JVC SX21 with ISCOII lens.


I have a 120" hi-power mounted so that the bottom of the screen is about 33" off the floor. The projector is placed on a shelf directly behind the viewer. Viewing distance is 13 feet.


I had struggled with what screen to get as I had previously really liked my Stewart Studiotek 130. I was seduced by the SilverStar, however, with input primarily from Tryg, and other members on the forum, I went with the Hi power.


No regrets about the quality of the image - It shines.


Viewing position is definitely best when close the the PJ. However, unless you are one of us you'd never be botyered by the brightness drop off.


I've been very busy with my company over the past 3-4 months and not even had time to watch many movies in my HT let alone be a good contributor to the forum. If I'm honest I've also been spending alot of time on my other - photography! A hi end digital SLR, good lenses and the family make for some interesting days.


Another factor that may sway people is that DaLite screens are significantly less expensive than Stewarts.


Good luck

Rob


----------



## sidbitters

I have a z2 about 13 feet back from a 106" highpower. The lens is 78" high, the screen top is 82" high and seating is about 12.5 feet back. There is a big difference when you stand up and get closer to the lens height in brightness. In this case I would say that another screen would be a better choice.


Sid


----------



## Kev1000000

I wanna cry...


I just recieved my HCMW screen, i havent mounted it yet, but could someone re-assure me HCMW will look good











I have TOTAL control of ambient light (in basement) and im currently projecting it on a white wall.


Will the HCMW look good? I ordered it before i saw this thread


----------



## hikarate

The HP is first choice for pull downs, but for a framed screen some prefer the HCMW. Post what PJ you have, and where it is mounted, (ceiling, shelf, tabletop). Framed or Pull down screen? I don't think you made a mistake by any means, just didn't field all your options. Also how wide is your HT seating? If you have spread out seating then you might prefer the HCMW. Also I believe the HCMW doesn't have as much gain, but it does provide better contrast. The more information you provide the better chance you have of one of our more knowledgable members to reply to your post.

Welcome to the forums!


----------



## Kev1000000

thanks...


I have an X1 and its mounted about 7 feet high.


My seating is a bit far off to each side, i'd say around 35 degrees.


It is a designer contour screen (pulldown)



I originally wanted HP, but Da-Lite said if i can control amient light, that HCMW is better...


Damn them!


----------



## mystery

Kev1000000,


Relax. I have a 92" HCMW in my recroom with off-white walls and a white stucco ceiling and beige carpeting. I know this is not ideal but I also have no windows and can make the room pitch black. I have been considering going with a hi-power but haven't found anyone who can comment who is using one in a room similar to mine. I'd like to find out if there would be an improvement in the picture if I changed screens.


I wouldn't say that you've made an error in purchasing this screen. It all depends on what you're looking for in the picture. Your HCMW will deliver deep blacks and reveal lots of detail in darker scenes. This is what I've found. A hi-power will raise your black levels but will be brighter overrall so you may or may not notice the lighter blacks. I recently had a chance to observe a hi-power and Vutec Silverstars's 6.0 gain superbright screen recently at the Canuck Shootout 2. Both had pop, that's for sure. However, many people sitting around me could be audibly heard to comment that it was too bright, more like watching television than a film-like experience. Unfortunately some of the brighter scenes involved crushing whites and an almost blurryness to the picture. The blacks 'seemed' black and I guess that's all that matters but I found that I preferred the lower gain screens.


I also have an X1 which is mounted quite low at about 6' or so and would be willing to try a hi-power but I am quite happy with the HCMW and the only reason that I'd like to change it is to possibly get a bit brighter picture. However this may be a function of the X1 not putting out that many lumens in non-presentation mode, or maybe I should just paint my walls. Perhaps a brighter projector would punch things up a bit.


One thing you can do Kev, is to upgrade your DVD player to one which upconverts to 720p or 1080i like the LG which I have. I was using a Sony but I have truly discovered that the LG upconverted to 1080i on the X1 delivers a much brighter picture and I could be happy with this setup for quite a while. My brightness setting as per Avia had to be reduced when using this LG from 48 to 37 so this may be something that you can consider.


Anyway, enjoy your new screen. There are trade-offs with either one. If you want a film-like experience with good blacks and shadow detail, you've made the right choice. If you like brightness, you may want to consider getting an upconverting DVD player or upgrading to a hi-power screen after a while. You should have no trouble selling your HCMW if you set it up properly with your X1 when exhibiting it to prospective buyers.


Hope this helps.


Wayne


----------



## Kev1000000

^ thanks a lot man, that really does help...


Im mounting it tomorrow, and ill take some pics so people can have even more info on these two screen types, and ill give a tiny review on the HCMW...


Im sure ill love it, but with all this info and people saying the High Power was fantastic, i felt like i made the wrong decision.


But at any rate, the HCMW will improve my picture over my off-white wall by a lot!











Thanks mystery!


----------



## adopted

damn did i stumble into the right thread, I'm moving my setup to a different room (downstairs, cuz upstairs is just to hot in cali) same deal, white walls, beige carpet, soon to covered window and X1 sittin at about 7-8ft ... its only a 3 wall room though, theres an overhang which is where I plan to mount my X1 with a killer little mount I bought from a user on this forum. So for the time being my ambiant light is not totally controllable so I think the HP sounds like a good option cuz it sounds like i'm close to the proper low-range, but I'm still undecided if buying a pull down that will be perm down is a good option just to save money. I could use the money saved to buy some curtains to mask the wall w/ the screen as well as various other small useful purchases. So should I save my coin? Or should I just buck up and kiss my tax refund goodbye on one purchase?


Heres a peak at my overhang, bottom point is 7FT exactly, top part is a hair under 8, I could get it even lower then 7 if I mount the mount (hehe) on the bottom and use the 2-4" drop of Mandraks mount. But using the overhang to keep the PJ flush is to temptous. Pardon the quality, camcorders aren't stillshot cameras.


----------



## jw15851

things go "BUMP" in the night...


----------



## maxleung

Thanks for the bump...geez, no wonder I couldn't find it in a search...the title says "HighPower" not "Hi Power" or "High Power".


----------



## Jediboy

yeah, has anybody tried this experiment with an Infocus X1????

I am looking at upgrading my screen and would appreciate any advice

given.


Your pictures were great by the way.


----------



## crumbaker

Very helpful, but not to my wallet.


----------



## willx1

After lots and lots of reading, probably going to order a HP but I was wondering, all the adds say "seamless in sizes up to 6' " well the one I was looking at was the 120" diagonal, its 69"X92" so I was wondering how noticable is the seam and where is it? Up the middle or on a side, so if you have size that has a seam let me know what you think, thanks in advance.


----------



## darinp2




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by willx1_
> *After lots and lots of reading, probably going to order a HP but I was wondering, all the adds say "seamless in sizes up to 6' " well the one I was looking at was the 120" diagonal, its 69"X92" so I was wondering how noticable is the seam and where is it? Up the middle or on a side, so if you have size that has a seam let me know what you think, thanks in advance.*



This won't have a seam since one dimension is under 6'. I believe they can make 72" by quite a bit in the other direction. Sounds like they make these from 6' wide rolls. I would still be curious how a seam would look since I would like to get something close to 11' wide in 16x9 though.


--Darin


----------



## ojosch

Did anybody happen to speak about how well the High Power works or would work for a floor mounted CRT projector?


I'm still sit'n on the fence now between the High Power and DaLite's Video Spectra (1.5). I want brighter whites, brighter picture and vibrant colors overall, to the highest level so I don't have to drive my tubes so hard. Then I can back off the gains and my tubes will last longer.


----------



## jcg

I was going to start a new thread for this question, but seems like this might be a good place for it. I'm currently testing out a 4805 I got from Costco and am projecting on a 96" diag Parkland Plastic screen and am sitting about 13 feet back (with the projector on a shelf behind the couch).


The image on the Parkland plastics doesn't have the pop to the colors that I like and I'm used to more vibrant colors on my regular Toshiba TV. I am testing out a number of samples that I got (HiPower, High Contrast Matte White, Video Spectra 1.5, Silver Matte, Cinema Vision, and Silverstar).


With the High Power the colors definately have the most punch/pop and are similar to what I'm looking for. The only problem is the viewing cone is very small. It looks great in the 3 positions on the couch directly back from the screen, but is actually slightly darker than the Parkland plastics when viewed from the chairs to the sides of the couch.


The Silverstar is slightly brighter than the Parkland plastic and is similar brightness in all the viewing locations. But it is no where near as punchy as the High Power. As for all the other samples they look very close to the Parkland Plastics to me (and a few friends I had over last night to get impressions on all these samples). Granted most of these samples are very small (about 6" square), except for the high power which is about 1' square and I'm not sure if this makes a big difference or not.


So my question is are there any options that will give me the punch of the HiPower but larger view cone? Ultimately I need a pulldown screen so I need materials that can be used that way. I won't be keeping the 4805, and am thinking of the Panny 700 in case that makes a difference. Any help is appreciated as I'm hoping to make a final decision soon.


John


----------



## jw15851

Obviously I'm biased, as I have the High Power, and am extremely satisfied with it. The best brightness when using the high power, is to have a table mounted projector. This puts you on the best axis of viewing, for the most bright picture possible. That said, many many people here have had great success with ceiling mounted projectors and the High Power, (although that is not the 'recommended' method of using it.)


Honestly, a 1" square piece is not way to make a decision on such a thing, and I think would make matters worse. How can one tell how much better a 1" piece looks from another 1" piece from across the room?


In the video I put up of the high power, the change in brightness is really much more dramatic only to the camera. The human eye seems to not be as sensitive to such brightness changes, and the appearance in person is much more subtle.


When I was purchasing, I really agonized over the different options, and finally decided to take the suggestions of the members of the forum and get the High Power. By chance, i was miss-shipped the High Contrast Matte White, and in the process of them getting the correct screen to me, I managed to take some pictures and do the comparison that started this thread.


I've not heard of any people that got the High Power, that were NOT happy with it. Not one. Yet, I do hear complaints about various other screen materials. That should say something.


I would say jump in and get it. If by chance you aren't happy with it, I'm sure you could find a buyer here on the forums, as the screen has a good reputation there will surely be people looking to get one at a slight discount.


Cheers,


-Jason W


----------



## jcg

Thabnks for the input. My sample as my original post said is 1' not 1" so I think my sample of the high power is giving a good example of it's brightness. It's the other samples which are about 1/2 the size (ie. 6" square) that it's a bit harder to judge.


What I'm really trying to get input on is if there is any other material that is almost as bright as the High Power, but maybe has a bigger cone? Maybe there isn't such a product and I'll just need to go with the HiPower, but if there is I'd like to order a sample and give it a try.


John




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jw15851_
> *Obviously I'm biased, as I have the High Power, and am extremely satisfied with it. The best brightness when using the high power, is to have a table mounted projector. This puts you on the best axis of viewing, for the most bright picture possible. That said, many many people here have had great success with ceiling mounted projectors and the High Power, (although that is not the 'recommended' method of using it.)
> 
> 
> Honestly, a 1" square piece is not way to make a decision on such a thing, and I think would make matters worse. How can one tell how much better a 1" piece looks from another 1" piece from across the room?
> 
> 
> In the video I put up of the high power, the change in brightness is really much more dramatic only to the camera. The human eye seems to not be as sensitive to such brightness changes, and the appearance in person is much more subtle.
> 
> 
> When I was purchasing, I really agonized over the different options, and finally decided to take the suggestions of the members of the forum and get the High Power. By chance, i was miss-shipped the High Contrast Matte White, and in the process of them getting the correct screen to me, I managed to take some pictures and do the comparison that started this thread.
> 
> 
> I've not heard of any people that got the High Power, that were NOT happy with it. Not one. Yet, I do hear complaints about various other screen materials. That should say something.
> 
> 
> I would say jump in and get it. If by chance you aren't happy with it, I'm sure you could find a buyer here on the forums, as the screen has a good reputation there will surely be people looking to get one at a slight discount.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> -Jason W*


----------



## leszek1

Even with ceiling mounting the high power has a big advantage over most other screens - waves are invisible.


----------



## AVWERKS

ojosch


I use a High power with a floor mounted Nec XG135lc and a Barco 1208s/2 occasionally switching (Nice about floor mounting







)


It comes down to plus's and minus's and what you can tolerate.


For one ,you will have to mount it a little higher than the floor, maybe 12 to 15" to make reasonalble use of the gain. (as always, closer to your line of sight)


You will have color shift, but this only rears it's ugly head on the brightest sky shot's of any movie and rarely, rarely noticealbe with lower IRE's of the image.


If you watch and set up the grey scale for the center seat and watch the majority of movies from it the plus's will outshine any negatives. Your non-videophiles that sit on the sides of you will never complain on 5600K and 9300K palate their watching










The reasons you mention on tube life are more important than it's issues and you get a sharper picture with the lowerd contrast settings. Light spill is reduced so it doesn't reflect off walls and ruin contrast.



David


----------



## Robert Clark




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jcg_
> *
> 
> What I'm really trying to get input on is if there is any other material that is almost as bright as the High Power, but maybe has a bigger cone? Maybe there isn't such a product and I'll just need to go with the HiPower, but if there is I'd like to order a sample and give it a try.
> 
> 
> John*



I just received a Draper M2500 sample which is another high gain screen material. I have a HighPower screen.

It's interesting stuff, it's noticably brighter using a ceiling mounted projector than my High Power.

It seems to have a little sheen to the picture (which the HighPower doesn't).

I'm going to buy some and build a frame.


I know AVWERKS has both so you might ask him what he thinks...


----------



## ojosch




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by AVWERKS_
> *ojosch
> 
> 
> I use a High power with a floor mounted Nec XG135lc and a Barco 1208s/2 occasionally switching (Nice about floor mounting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> 
> It comes down to plus's and minus's and what you can tolerate.
> 
> 
> For one ,you will have to mount it a little higher than the floor, maybe 12 to 15" to make reasonalble use of the gain. (as always, closer to your line of sight)
> 
> 
> You will have color shift, but this only rears it's ugly head on the brightest sky shot's of any movie and rarely, rarely noticealbe with lower IRE's of the image.
> 
> 
> If you watch and set up the grey scale for the center seat and watch the majority of movies from it the plus's will outshine any negatives. Your non-videophiles that sit on the sides of you will never complain on 5600K and 9300K palate their watching
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reasons you mention on tube life are more important than it's issues and you get a sharper picture with the lowerd contrast settings. Light spill is reduced so it doesn't reflect off walls and ruin contrast.
> 
> 
> 
> David*



Cool, I'm glad I heard from another CRT guy. I will probably go ahead and try one. This screen also seems to work good with LCD projectors as well? In case I ever got one and did like you and had 2 sharing the same screen?


----------



## ferbvie

I took the plunge and ordered the CINEMA CONTOUR High Power screen to go along with my x1 I will post my results










Eddie


----------



## Sandwedg

OK, so here is a "dumb" question.


If the High Powers are "designed" for table top pj's, couldn't you turn the screen upside down, for ceiling mounted pj's?


(although, I guess you would need to have some "drop" down from the ceiling, for all things to be equal)


----------



## leszek1




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Sandwedg_
> *OK, so here is a "dumb" question.
> 
> 
> If the High Powers are "designed" for table top pj's, couldn't you turn the screen upside down, for ceiling mounted pj's?*



The short answer is no. The screen, just like a car's emergency triangle or road signs etc reflect the light toward its source. If the PJ is on a table top, most of the light will be reflected toward the table and toward a user that is sitting down next to the PJ. If the PJ is on the ceiling most of the light will be reflected toward the PJ and a very tall user who's standing up.










It does not matter whether the screen is upside down or not, just like it does not matter how you put the emergency triangle on the road.


----------



## netman




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by leszek1_
> *Even with ceiling mounting the high power has a big advantage over most other screens - waves are invisible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



I had originally understood the waves are not as visible (on the high power) because there are no/less waves because the screen material is heavier and less prone to "warping" or whatever you want to call it. These comment make me think maybe the waves can be there but they are not noticeable.


Can someone clear this up for me?


Thanks,


Andy


----------



## jw15851

On a non tensioned screen, the waves are just as present as on other screens. And they are visible if you look closely. Particularly when the camera is panning across a landscape scene. That said, the waves ARE much LESS visible than with other screens. Not sure why. But I would guess the directional nature of the reflection means that regardless of the waves, which change the angle of the screen, the light is still reflecting back in the direction from which it came. So you don't see a change in brightness over the wave, and as such it is less noticeable. Whereas a screen that is matte white, and does not reflect light back in a specific direction, would result in a slight change in brightness, making it more noticeable.


-Jason W


----------



## netman

Jason,


Thanks for the clarification. Your guess of "why" makes sense to me also. My Z2 on my HCMW really looks great. The only down side is the waves. Your comparison where you started this thread is pretty interesting. Unless I give up my 47" CRT based RPTV I need a rollup screen of some kind. I just recently started re-examining my options. I love that CRT set so giving that up is not an option for me yet but some day, who knows.


Andy


----------



## leszek1




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jw15851_
> *... I would guess the directional nature of the reflection means that regardless of the waves, which change the angle of the screen, the light is still reflecting back in the direction from which it came. So you don't see a change in brightness over the wave, and as such it is less noticeable. Whereas a screen that is matte white, and does not reflect light back in a specific direction, would result in a slight change in brightness, making it more noticeable.
> 
> 
> -Jason W*



Correct.


----------



## Electron Mover

I think that I know what I think is correct...BUT... I need to hear from some of you experts that the following reasoning and conclusion is correct.

I plan on buying a Sony HS 51 which will be placed such that the lens will be directly over head 72" above the floor. The top of the 16:9 screen will be~79" above the floor. The room has total light control with dark green-blue (almost black) walls and the carpet and ceiling are white. I had originally planned on a 119" diagonal manual HCMW screen, but after reading this thread, I now think I should go with a 110" High Power screen so as to keep the reflected ambient light down and have a relatively larger "cone" for side viewers sitting 14' away. By doing this, I'll actually have better contrast than with the HCMW screen and a brighter picture?


Thanks,


Bill


----------



## keyser

It´s really hard to judge how the high power looks off axis by numbers and pictures, does it compare to any RPTV´s with the brightness drop off?


----------



## jw15851

Keyser,


No it doesn't. That was exactly my original concern with the High Power. I hate how rear projection TVs are so highly directional with regard to viewing angles, and was very concerned that this would be similar. Rest assured that it isn't. That was where the "extreme angle" pictures came from at the beginning of the thread to prove that point. You can lay on the floor and watch and see just about as good an image as when sitting on the couch.


There is a "sweet spot" of brightness. However anyone that has the projector ceiling mounted is generally already outside of the "sweet spot" anyway. (Viewing cone). You do notice a change in brightness as you enter and exit the viewing cone. Maybe a 10% to 15% change in brightness. However once you are out of that area (which if ceiling mounted you are out of it anyway from the start, unless you start by stand on your couch) The change is maybe 2% or so as you stand up or move around to extreme angles. Regardless of "sweet spot" or not, the screen is still brighter than the HCMW, or most others. Which is why people like it. And to me personally, a dramatic change in brightness would be annoying so I'm really glad that I don't have to deal with that, as mine is ceiling mounted. As it is, I really don't notice any change in brightness at all from floor, to couch to standing. (Ok, from couch to standing you can see a small change, but you have to be looking for it)


Hope that helps,


-Jason W


----------



## keyser

jw15851,

Thanks for the reply. So it´s nowhere near as bad as an RPTV. Would it be fair to say that the drop of is then maybe somewhere between a white screen and a RPTV?


My projector is also ceiling mounted, and I have a very dark painted ceiling but the floor has light coloured tiles. Since the high power will be reflecting upwards towards the projector I imagine the white tiles won´t have as bad of an affect on the ANSI contrast with the hight power as with my matte white screen?


Is it possible to get the hight power in a deluxe border thing like I have with the matte white, a black border with fabric on it for no reflections the screen is snapped on to it? Is there some guaranty for no wrinkles/waves. Most high gain materials are rather fragile are they not, and shipping all the way to Iceland might be problematic.


How does the price of the high power compare to a matte white. I know what a matte white costs here, so it would be helpfull to know how much more % the high power is.


Is 110" the largest it´s available in 16:9?


----------



## jw15851

Not sure. If I remember correctly, mine is 96" wide, 16x9. (It's the standard 'off the shelf' size) Adding drop (black cloth material the screen is mounted to) to the top and bottom can be done at no additional cost. So it seemed logical to me to have a foot added to the bottom, and another 6 or 8 inches added to the top. This gives the some flexability with regard to image height, and even better, allowing me to mount the screen high on the wall, but have the actual image a bit lower on the wall.


I forget the difference in the cost. It was marginally more expensive, but not so much as to be a huge factor in the decision. You are correct in the idea that it will reflect less light off the floor. Another benefit of this material, due the directional nature is that it has a tendency to 'reject' ambient light. With the HCMW, turning on a light in the room resulted in the entire screen illuminating with the light. With the HP, a light on the side of the room has a much much less dramatic effect.


And regarding the brightness change, you're thinking about it the wrong way comparing it at all to a RPTV. It's not at all the same type of brightness change. A RPTV virtually disappears off axis, darker, really ugly change. With this, the only change is a slight change in overall brightness, not any type of what you see with RPTV. Trust me. This was a concern for me, and it turned out to be a non issue.


Wrinkles are on the screen. Really unavoidable with a less expensive non-tensioned screen. They are just less noticeable with this material.


Read through the beginning of the thread. You can see the pictures I posted comparing the screens, and the extreme angles. I also have some links to a very short video I shot showing the change in brightness across all axis of the screen. (Note that the changes you see in the video, are not as dramatic in person as seen in the video. The camera is much more sensitive to these things than the human eye is.)


-Jason W


----------



## keyser

 http://www.da-lite.com/products/prod...cID=20&pID=234 


There it looks like the high power is availabe in Cinema Contour border with a Pro-Trim finish? My border has snaps that I fasten the screen to, is that not the case with the high power?


I´d love a brighter pic than I have now, but I´d never want to give up the black fabric borders and have waves on my screen







Why isn´t the high power available in some form that doesn´t have waves??


----------



## jw15851

I think DaLite makes the High Power with snaps for a frame. However for reasons that no one here has been able to explain, the raw material is more expensive than buying it inside a retractable case. People will actually buy a model c? (or b I forget, the cheaper of the two), and cut the screen loose, to make their own frame from. strange marketing.


-Jason W


----------



## keyser

But if it´s bought in a cinema contour frame with snaps it will have no waves?


Do you and others with the high power not have a frame that covers the whole screen and overscan the image slightly on this frame. I love the "large TV screen" look that the large border I have gives.


----------



## nightfly85

I just installed my new 45x80 inch Model C hi power this weekend (upgraded from matte white model B).


Absolutely zero waves in the screen material, none, nada, zip. It's sits nearly completely flat, which is quite a change from the Model B.



I have 8 ft. ceiling and have the PJ (X1) ceiling mounted. I dropped the mouting position as part of the weekend's install project so that it's a little over 6ft. from the floor and about 3ft above my head while sitting.


Previously, I had the PJ mounted as close to the ceiling as I could to help minimize any keystoning needed. Dropping it about 12" total resulting in a very noticable gain in brightness. I know I not getting the 2.8 gain, but more like 1.8 to 2.0 or so, which is still a nice improvement.


Watching the World Series game 2 in HDTV during the day resulted in a punchier image with much less wash-out (I have lots of ambient light conditions).


The hipower is nothing like RPTV, even at the most extreme angle, it's better than RPTV at 30 deg.


----------



## keyser

I just got this reply from Da-Lite(I edited some stuff out which isn´t related to this thread):


"The High Power is available in 16:9 up to 133" diagonal in a fixed frame screen (like Cinema Contour). In an electric motorized screen and a manual pull down screen, it is available in 16:9 up to 159" diagonal.

There should never be waves.

The Cinema Contour frame with snaps puts a tension on the screen that makes it lay extremely flat.


Our screens will probably fit the Projecta frame, but I am not certain about that. You may want to check their website/specs, and then check ours, too.

The advantage of the High Power is that is has a gain of 2.5. However, if your projector is bright enough, you do not need High Power. In fact, this may make your image too bright and create a "hot spot" in the center."


No waves, but hotspotting. Kinda the opposite of what´s being said on this forum??


----------



## Electron Mover

Here's my plan. I'm going to get the high power Model C 110" diagonal screen to use with a Sony HS 51 in my basement. The pj will be on a shelf. If the image is too bright and / or hot spotting occurs, I'll just raise the pj's shelf and use the lens shift to readjust the picture until the brightness suits me. Does this make sense?


----------



## keyser

What does a picture that´s "too bright" look like? If it will be like a huge plasma then I don´t get what´s "too" about the "bright".


Will there maybe be revlealed compression artifacts on everything, even good DVD transferes like Lord of the rings?


----------



## Electron Mover




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by keyser_
> *What does a picture that´s "too bright" look like? If it will be like a huge plasma then I don´t get what´s "too" about the "bright".
> 
> 
> Will there maybe be revlealed compression artifacts on everything, even good DVD transferes like Lord of the rings?*



You're correct, poor choice of words. What I'm hoping is flexibilty in gain of the screen by moving the pj up (away from eye level) in order to achieve the most "pleasing" (to me) picture. Seems like it should work, but I was wondering if anyone has intentionally done this and what kind of results they got, or if people think in a totally controlled room I should just go with MW or HCMW? I don't see much of a down side since if I move the pj too far it wil just be equivalent to MW (1.0 gain)?

Thanks for any thoughts you may have!

Bill


----------



## darinp2




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Electron Mover_
> *Here's my plan. I'm going to get the high power Model C 110" diagonal screen to use with a Sony HS 51 in my basement. The pj will be on a shelf. If the image is too bright and / or hot spotting occurs, I'll just raise the pj's shelf and use the lens shift to readjust the picture until the brightness suits me. Does this make sense?*



Makes sense to me. This would be good for smaller variations, but if you want to go half as dim or something large like that then I would suggest a neutral density filter instead. The further you move out of the viewing cone the less benefit you get from the High Power being able to kill off angle reflections, but this shouldn't be a big deal within a reasonable range. If you are outside the viewing cone by a ways this can become an issue because reflections or ambient light near you gets much higher gain than the projected light though.


--Darin


----------



## keyser




> Quote:
> What does a picture that´s "too bright" look like? If it will be like a huge plasma then I don´t get what´s "too" about the "bright".



I´d love to get answers to those questions. Why is it that most of the time about 13 ftL is recomended? But plasma, direct view TV´s, LCD´s etc. try and get brigther and brigther?


What´s the drawback of having a 40ftL 100"+ image, I´ve never seen that so I´d love to know. I do understand no one would want that with a DLP because the picture noise(dithering+rainbows) would be untolerable, but with something like LCD or LCOS, what would be the problem?


----------



## Ronomy

Well for me on my 120 inch diagonal screen when the picture is very bright I feel like my eys need to re-adjust. Like when you walk out into the bright sunlight. Not quite that bad but I've on occasion felt my eyes strain when the scenes changed from dark to bright. However, I still believe the brighter the better since you can always add neutral density filters for when you want the screen darker...then remove the filter when you want to leave the lights on for a bright NFL or Baseball game and you have company over. Brighter is still better for me!


Ron


----------



## keyser

Ronomy,

How many ftL do you think your "very bright" image is? And if I understand you correctly that image is very watchable, even at it´s brigthest.


----------



## nightfly85

For me "too bright" would be similar to viewing an LCD monitor in an unlit room - that's too bright, it needs some background light so as not to burn your eyes out. CRT monitors do this as well, but not as bad as I can view them awhile without "pain".


The great thing about our PJs is that you can adjust them to account for screens that may end up being too bright during night time viewing but ok for daytime.


----------



## Ronomy

Keyser,


I'm at about 17 FtL (max/new bulb) with my neutral density filter (ND2). So 34 FtL without it is pretty bright to my eyes at 120 inch. It's only sometimes bothersome when the picture is dark for a while and a bright scene or comercial comes on. Smaller screen sizes like a 60 inch screen do not have the same affect because the screen is small and it doesn't fill the field of view as much if sitting at the same distance from the screen. With the big screen it is bright and big. I use a high gain screen to get those numbers. Draper M2500!


Ron


----------



## mrlittlejeans

How do you like the M2500? I just got on Draper's website and checked it out. It looks like a viable alternative to the Hi Power. My issue is that my wall is 15' wide. My equipment rack is about 50" tall and my speakers are about 6' tall and 2' wide. Unless I cut my equipment rack in half and put each half on each side of my center channel, my screen needs to be towards the ceiling (roughly 10' high, subtract 4" or so for the crown molding). I think I would lose the benefits of the Hi Power. I wonder how the M2500 would do in this situation.


I need to get a screen with gain b/c I would be moving from a light cannon Sanyo XP21N to the Sony HS51. Currently use a Dalite High Contrast or a Studiotek 130 when the bulb dims.


----------



## mrlittlejeans

And why would a Model B Hi Power pulldown be 1/2 the price of just buying the screen material?


----------



## leszek1

Because of mass production - the pulldown screen is mass produced since there is a great demand for it. So mass production keeps the price down vs. the cut to size material.


----------



## JimP

Is the 1HD/Z1 the 700 lumen projector?


----------



## Ronomy

Wow! With your screen that high up I would think you could mount the projector pretty high and still benefit from the High Power since the projector could basically be at so called table height and still be more than 50 inches off the floor. The light would reflect back towards the projector or at least downward more towards you. The High power has more gain than the M2500. My concern for you would be if your projecting upwards the M2500 would light up the ceiling more. However, if you can mount the projector up against the ceiling with the top of the screen then the M2500 would be better for you. I would need to know the exact heights of both the screen and the projector as well as the size of the screen. Screen height especially!


Basically, if your projector is against the ceiling then get the M2500 or other angular reflective screen but if your projector is mounted at 50 inches off the floor level with the bottom of the screen then go with the High Power retro-reflective surface.


Ron


----------



## dandaroy

jw15851, mbaxter and others,


thanks for a great post. I now have a high contrast matte white screen from Da-lite (gain 1.1) which I am using with the Sony VPL-HS51 pj.

When I keep the bulb in high mode, the picture brightness is acceptable, but not in low mode, it is a bit dim. I would like to run the PJ in low bulb mode (much quieter) and still get a brighter and punchy image.


My room has very good (but not 100%) light controlled, but has light taupe colored walls with white ceiling. My PJ is table mounted with the PJ flush with the bottom edge of the 92" diag screen.


Here are the things I am worried about regarding getting a Hi-Power screen:


1. black levels - how worse sdoes it get? Can someone give me screenshots to compare black levels


2. hotspotting - will this be a problem?


3. Will the added brightness accentuate flaws in image -sparklies, compression artifacts and LCD artifacts like SDE, VB, etc.


Prompt response appreciated.


----------



## jw15851

1) very minor change in black levels. Toward the beginning of this thread, i have A/B comparison pictures with a HCMW and a Highpower. Some of the pictures/screen shots I even sliced up into bands to show the differences ABABABABAB instead of A B. ;-) But yes, you are going from a high contrast screen to one that is designed to be brighter. You will lose some in the blacks, but not as bad as you are worrying about.


2) No hotspotting. You don't have a giant bright area in the middle, or anything like that. It looks like a normal screen, just brighter.


3) it will accentuate flaws as much as being able to see the image better and more brightly will, so I guess the answer is yes, sort of. I wouldn't say it is really that dramatic of a change though. I watch 90% of my viewing using SVHS through my DirecTivo. DVD movies are only a small portion of our viewing. Some channels look better than others depending on the compression they are using, but over all, all the images are quite watchable. And I saw no discernible difference in the appearance of pixilation or flaws in one screen vs. another.


Don't expect a dramatic change, aside from a brighter image, and less worry about off axis light.


When I had the HCMW, you could look at the screen, (try this) and when a light source was turned on in the room, regardless of location, the entire screen glowed white brightly. (washing out a projected image if one was there) With the Highpower, you only notice a slight change on the screen, because the screen is reflecting most of the light back to the lamp, not to your eyes. (this is assuming the light source is not immediately near the viewer, but ambient lighting. I use track lighting, with the cans aimed such that the bulbs are not 'seen' by the screen, and the light is pointed toward the seating area. This works well enough that I can have the lights up to about 50% brightness before you really notice a change in image quality. And even this, the lights can be 100% and the picture is still completely watchable for normal TV. This is with a 1HD (Z1), which is no light cannon, and my $350 bulb ALWAYS stays in low power mode. (movies I like the lights lower around 15 or 25%)


The HighPower works wonders for everyone I've read or talked to, and most of those were ceiling mounts. Your situation is even better and you will get even better/brighter results because your unit is table mounted, where even more light is being reflected back to you. The drawback to this is, you might see a little more dramatic difference in brightness than the rest of us do, if you were to stand up from your seated viewing position. This is because you were in the 'sweet spot', where as those of us with ceiling mounts are already out of the ideal viewing cone anyway, so the change is less dramatic. But again, to restate from the beginning posts here in this thread, when we say change in brightness, your first thought is something like a rear projection TV, where the image looks like A$$ if you move off center. This is simply not the case, and as you can see from my extreme angle shots, you have good image all around the room. You can watch TV laying on the floor, standing, or anything else. Everyone worries too much about the brightness change, it's proven to be a non-issue to everyone that has tried it. I worried about that the most before I got mine too.


Hope that helps.


-Jason W


----------



## keyser

I got a nice A4 sized high power sample. In my setup, which is a ceiling mounted infocus 5700 and a matte white screen 106" which I sit 13-14 feet from, I noticed:


The high gain sweetspot was VERY narrow. Really only one seat, but could possibly be three if the other seats would be tight against mine.


The black level was quite a bit higher in the sweetspot.


I saw no random sparkles/glimmer finish on the screen, which I have seen on the other over 1.0 gain samples(cinema vision, hccv).


Strangely enough, no matter how far off axis I viewed the high power never seemed dimmer than my 1.0.. which is weird!


I would never ever use this screen for my setup, because the DLP artifacts were painfully obvious(and they are quite annoying with the 1.0 screen). Dithering in dark scenes was terrible!


Since there are no sparklies, this would be the only high gain screen I have seen that I would consider(I haven´t seen a silverstar). But I don´t think it would ever do it for me with a DLP(except a dim one.. or in high contrast dim mode). And it´s too bad the high gain viewing cone is so extremely narrow.


----------



## dandaroy

Thanks for the response. I see you are using Model B. In your estimation is Model C worth it, since I will have the screen pulled down all the time?



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jw15851_
> *1) very minor change in black levels. Toward the beginning of this thread, i have A/B comparison pictures with a HCMW and a Highpower. Some of the pictures/screen shots I even sliced up into bands to show the differences ABABABABAB instead of A B. ;-) But yes, you are going from a high contrast screen to one that is designed to be brighter. You will lose some in the blacks, but not as bad as you are worrying about.
> 
> 
> 2) No hotspotting. You don't have a giant bright area in the middle, or anything like that. It looks like a normal screen, just brighter.
> 
> 
> 3) it will accentuate flaws as much as being able to see the image better and more brightly will, so I guess the answer is yes, sort of. I wouldn't say it is really that dramatic of a change though. I watch 90% of my viewing using SVHS through my DirecTivo. DVD movies are only a small portion of our viewing. Some channels look better than others depending on the compression they are using, but over all, all the images are quite watchable. And I saw no discernible difference in the appearance of pixilation or flaws in one screen vs. another.
> 
> 
> Don't expect a dramatic change, aside from a brighter image, and less worry about off axis light.
> 
> 
> When I had the HCMW, you could look at the screen, (try this) and when a light source was turned on in the room, regardless of location, the entire screen glowed white brightly. (washing out a projected image if one was there) With the Highpower, you only notice a slight change on the screen, because the screen is reflecting most of the light back to the lamp, not to your eyes. (this is assuming the light source is not immediately near the viewer, but ambient lighting. I use track lighting, with the cans aimed such that the bulbs are not 'seen' by the screen, and the light is pointed toward the seating area. This works well enough that I can have the lights up to about 50% brightness before you really notice a change in image quality. And even this, the lights can be 100% and the picture is still completely watchable for normal TV. This is with a 1HD (Z1), which is no light cannon, and my $350 bulb ALWAYS stays in low power mode. (movies I like the lights lower around 15 or 25%)
> 
> 
> The HighPower works wonders for everyone I've read or talked to, and most of those were ceiling mounts. Your situation is even better and you will get even better/brighter results because your unit is table mounted, where even more light is being reflected back to you. The drawback to this is, you might see a little more dramatic difference in brightness than the rest of us do, if you were to stand up from your seated viewing position. This is because you were in the 'sweet spot', where as those of us with ceiling mounts are already out of the ideal viewing cone anyway, so the change is less dramatic. But again, to restate from the beginning posts here in this thread, when we say change in brightness, your first thought is something like a rear projection TV, where the image looks like A$$ if you move off center. This is simply not the case, and as you can see from my extreme angle shots, you have good image all around the room. You can watch TV laying on the floor, standing, or anything else. Everyone worries too much about the brightness change, it's proven to be a non-issue to everyone that has tried it. I worried about that the most before I got mine too.
> 
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> 
> -Jason W*


----------



## jw15851

I don't even remember the model of screen, b or c. It was the less expensive of the two. I've ended up leaving mine down almost all the time. I did opt for the version with the auto retraction control. It's a neat feature that lets you pull and release the screen to allow it to retract. It slows the upward progress so the screen does not slam into the housing. I figured with little kids, it was bound to happen, and a good feature to have. Also, that reminded me. The High Power can be cleaned with soap and water. The HCMW can not. (according to DaLite), thankfully I've not had to test this feature yet.


----------



## keyser

Jason,


would you agree that the gain of the high power is really noticable for only 1 -3 seats maximum.. or is it different in your setup?


----------



## jw15851

it is different in my setup. Because the projector is ceiling mounted, I'm already out of the ideal viewing area. So the change from seat to seat, or really anywhere in the room is very minimal. Even so, it's still brighter and looks better than the HCMW did. Also, keep in mind that you are viewing a single small piece, and directly comparing it to the screen or image behind it. This amplifies your perception of the changes. If the entire screen were made of the same material, the change is obviously the same, but I would think your perception of the change would be much less... Or at least it is in my situation.


-Jason W


----------



## keyser

My projector is also ceiling mounted, and I thought the sample was brighter than my matte white within a cone of only about 6-7 feet, beyond that I thought it was no brighter than my 1.0 screen.


Would you agree that at almost no angle does the high power SEEM to drop below an 1.0 gain screen in brightness.


----------



## dandaroy

Thanks for all the info. I just ordered a hi-power dalite. Will post results once I get it next week.


----------



## jw15851

Hard to say if there is any dropoff, I really didn't notice much. Even at the extreme angles, it was still very watchable. In the pictures I posted at the beginning of this thread, look at the extreme angle pic vs. the straight on pict. The camera's exposure settings were locked for those photos, so the image comparison should be pretty valid. There is very little difference in brightness...


That picture was taken looking across the screen from the side... and at the time was meant more to pacify the fears people have when they hear "brightness change", and think it's going to look like a RPTV. Try seeing any picture at all with a traditional RPTV at that kind of angle.


I did take a stroll through Be$t Buy today and briefly looked at the new RPTVs and have to admit that the viewing angles have much improved since this thread started over a year and a half ago. What humored me was that my image was better quality than most of those, and about 4x as large, for about 1/4 to 1/2 the money. heh. If people only knew.


And I'm still on my first bulb with the Z1 (1HD)... knock on wood.


-Jason W


----------



## DaViD Boulet

I have my projector table-mounted (benQ8700+) and honestly couldn't imagine having it ceiling mounted only because of the drop-off in brightness when I stand up and look "down" at the (hipower) screen to simulate the same angle of reflection/viewing.


However, table-mounted, the image that results is gorgeous! So detailed, excellent grayscale, and the picture has the "pop" of a giant TV screen...


and the colors...ohhhh....


----------



## keyser

David,

How many seats would you say the high gain area covers? The sample I had it seemed only 1-2 seats.


With the backwall only 3-4 feet behind me, I could have the projector there at any height and could get a similar results as a table mount, couldn´t I? I´d just have to figure out how low I could have it without my head getting in the way.


----------



## DaViD Boulet

I find that folks within a 3-person (sofa) width at about 1.6 screen-widths get what I would call a "bright" image. Folks sitting off to either the left or right of that still get a watchable image...but it's not "bright" like being in the center row...still *very* pleasing and better than my old matte-white painted wall, but just not quite as punchy.


I try to sit no more than 5-people wide for this reason. If I have more folks over I sit on the floor in front of the sofa so everyone gets a seat.


-dave


----------



## Ronomy

I still prefer angular refective screens! I have the Draper M2500 and couldn't be happier. I looked at the high power and did not like it because of the peaky brightness in the center of the viewing cone and I hated how it dropped off so fast as you move out of the cone. That doesn't happen with an angular reflective screen. The other thing is the high power is so white it washes out in a lighted room. The M2500's perlescent surface looks great...even on a cloudy day with a big picture window wide open to let outside light in. I was watching football in High def this weekend and the picture was still wonderful...bright and even the blacks looked good with the room lit up and diffuse light from outside. With the high power up on the wall the screen just glows white and washes out compared to the M2500.


Try before you buy! Otherwise you will never know if your missing something in the other screen types. Plus everyone likes different things when they see a picture on a screen. One person my just want the brightest picture they can get and doesn't care about the viewing cone. In that case yes the High power is very bright when dead on. Too bright for my liking.


I had one guy see the High power and said WOW! Then sat down and said...what happened to the bright picture...then said that sucks after I told him why it was so. Ceiling mount and retro screen just does that! I hate hearing people say what happened to the bright picture!


M2500!...no more problem. Although I'm sure the Silverstar would be even nicer...just too expensive for me.


One more thing! If you want an angular reflective screen to work as the way I have mine setup...you need a long throw distance. My setup is 119 inch diagonal 16x9 with 19 feet throw distance. Not a lot of projectors can do that and thats why some will argue that angular screens will have hot spots. The M2500 has a very gradual drop off that helps with hot spotting issues. It's not a problem projecting 19 feet and sitting as close as 13 feet. Closer and yes you will begin to notice a hotter spot in the middle but it doesn't stand out by any means. I see more hot spotting at the cinema in my opinion.


Happy angular reflective screen owner! Ron


----------



## keyser

I may need to get a sample of the Draper M2500. All the angular reflective gained materials I have seen have IMO a bothering sparkly finish which I would never want.


The back wall in my HT is 16 feet from the screen, so the lens could never be further than about 14 feet from the screen. I plan on getting a 119" so that might be a little too close for much angular gain?


----------



## jw15851

bada-bing. bada-bump.


----------



## artoj

I know that Da-Lite HiPo is intented to use with a floor/table mounted projector. How ever it seems that lot´s of people are using it also with a ceiling mounted projector and that these compinations work just fine if projector is not mounted too high above the screen.


I´m now using a matte white creen and would like to try a screen that has more gain than just 1.


My room height is about 246 cm, the upper end of 4:3 picture is about 10 cm lower than that and the upper end of 16:9 picture is about 43 cm lower than my ceiling. The center of my Barco D 808 S lens is about 38 cm below ceiling. The screen is 240 cm wide for both 4:3 and 16:9.


If I would change to HiPo do you think that I would still have a brighter picture than using a matte white screen or would my projector to be too hight to gain any real benefit of HiPo´s greater gain ?


----------



## nightfly85

Everyone's situation is different and there are lots of variables - too many in fact to be able to state "you'll get this or that" gain or other performance related factors.


It cannot be overstated that the roll-down hi-power is often desired for its lack of waves and other surface abnormalities. The hi-power is one smooth screen - the best I have ever seen in a roll-down screen.


As far as what gain you'll get where - I can tell you that in general, you'll won't be disappointed with the hi-power. Now I am curious about the Draper m2500 screen, but that must be in a fixed wall mount and therefore not as applicable as the any retractable screen. If I were able to mount a fixed screen, I would take a hard look at the 2500.


My main problem as others have referenced is "seeing what you're missing" as you move up/down and around the screen there is noticable drop-off in gain. Does the image look worse? No, just not as bright.


I have a ceiling mounted X1. My head is about 4-5 ft below the PJ. I also have a panamorph lens attached which lowers the angle of reflection for the PJ to the screen. Up/down movements there is a very noticable increase/drop in gain. Moving left/right, not nearly as much.


At it's worse I would say the hi-power is no worse than the HCMW screens. This would be at extreme left/right angles where the gain possibly might drop to slightly below 1.0.


----------



## jw15851

I would agree with that statement. At the worst, you're equal to the HCMW. Every other time, it's better. ARTOJ, reference the pictures at the beginning of the thread. That shows a direct comparison between the high power and the hcmw. A few posts after that, I added another picture or two that does an overlay between the two, really highlighting the differences.


-Jason W


----------



## hotshu

Nightfly, plse expand on the Panamorph lens, as I have an X1 as well. Expensive? Viewing quality? Thanx!


----------



## jw15851

Hotshu,


If you watch a video on a normal TV (4:3), with the DVD player set to output 16:9 video, the letter box bars will be reduced or eliminated (depending on the aspect ratio), but, the video will appear "squished" such that everyone seems narrow or skinny. This is because it is sending video wider than the screen. Those of us with 16:9 TVs or Projectors, set our projectors to full 16:9, and the projector stretches the video to fill the wider screen, thus making everyone look normal.


An X1 is not 16:9, but rather is the standard TV 4:3 aspect ratio. So if you play a movie that is wide screen, you get large black bars on the top and bottom. If you set the DVD player to output 16:9 video, then your image will appear narrow and "squished". My understanding is the panamorph lens sits in-front of the lens of your projector, and optically "stretches" the video back out to the proper aspect ratio. This is a work around for those that want a true wide screen image. The catch is, unless something has changed recently, last time I took a look at the price, it was almost easier to get a new projector that cough up the $$$ for 'em. When you want to watch normal video, you either get up and move the lens out of the way, or just watch everyone stretched out so they look fat...


Hope that helps.


-Jason W


----------



## orion456




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mdmaclean_
> *I ordered my Da-Lite High Power and the shipping/duty costs were:
> 
> $70USD Shipping
> 
> $52CDN Customs Broker
> 
> PST+GST.
> 
> 0% Duty (made in US, NAFTA)*



Wow, I ordered a Da-Lite video spectra 1.5 screen for just a few dollars over the US list price from a local dealer. I asked if that included duty and shipping and he said yes. I quess I will wait and see if there are any additional charges.


----------



## Rich_SC

bumpity...lookin for a screen.


----------



## DaViD Boulet

Rich,


just so you know...


forum edicate prohibits arbitrary bumping of threads like that. If you've got a real post...as in you've read the thread and have a specific question etc...then by all means post. But don't just bump up silent threads without any real post content. It's *really* annoying to those subscribed to get a notification and come to the forum only to see there's no new discussion. Also, it can cause actual active-threads to get shoved down the stack.


Ok...thread-edicate lecture over!


dave


----------



## steinre1

I just posted this in another thread, but it relates so well to this one I thought I would post it here as well....



Well, I've done some more thinking and some calculations. I may be way off, but here we go:


Projector Height: 84" (~7ft) from floor

1st Row Distance from screen: 144"

1st Row Eyes: 38"

2nd Row Distance from screen: 200"

2nd Row Eyes: 46"

Screen Size: 106"

Screen Height: 84" (~7ft) from floor to top of screen, 32" from floor


Using the gain chart for the HP (I took from the graywolf thread), I calculated gain for the HP:


1st Row: 1.2


2nd Row: 1.6


This seems right in the ballpark of what people are saying - ceiling mount cuts gain in about half for retro-reflective screens. The graywolf, while improving contrast, would have a much lower gain where I am sitting since it's peak gain is only 1.8 vs 2.8 for the HP.


The viewing cone is not really an issue for me, since my room in long and narrow.


All of the ambient light I am concerned about comes in from the side of the room.

It seems to me that a retro-reflective screen is perfect for that type of scenario. Also, it would stand to reason that the higher the gain, the less ambient light from angles would effect the screen. In other words, the more retro-reflective the screen is, the more light is bounced back to the window instead of my eyes.


The draper m2500 and the silverstar (angular screens) might work even better for me, but at the moment I'm restricted to a dropdown screen (WAF) and the other screens are much pricier.


So, I think the high power is the screen for me. Will I get the full GAIN (pun intended)? Probably not. But I will still get a decent amount of punch and it should shed a decent amount of ambient light which is my number one goal...


Thanks to everyone for all of their help....


PS - I probably won't pull the trigger for at least another 2 weeks or so, so I welcome any other suggestions, corrections, flames (or encouragement that I am doing the right thing)


----------



## DaViD Boulet

my impression of viewing the hipower off-angle (as in ceiling-mount PJ but watching from the opposite angle) is that the gain is *LESS* than a matte-white screen...it actually appears to *REDUCE* the brightness of the image IMO in that scenario. I had a matte-white screen before the hipower and when I got the hipower it forced me to go table-mount because it was too dim. It turned out to be an advantage however, because I moved apartments at the same time and the new one had a concrete ceiling which was too much of a pain to drill.


----------



## maxleung

I still haven't gotten my High Power screen yet - yes, I've been procrastinating on this for too long. I will probably order one in the next few weeks.


My room is small, so a 92" HP screen should work for me. If I move my RPTV out of my HT room I should still be able to keep my Benq 8700 table-mounted and retain a 12 foot viewing distance (approx 1.8 viewing distance). But eventually it will have to go ceiling mounted so I can reclaim the leg-room and sit a bit closer for 1.6x.


A year ago I calculated a 1.4 gain in brightness with the High Power compared to my matte white screen when ceiling mounted. But your calculations steinre1 is probably more accurate. My 8700 has more than 600 hours on the bulb now, and it just might be too dim. Decisions decisions - I will have to order the screen and see for myself.


----------



## Nicholas Mosher

The 77" (possibly 92" if the quality doesn't drop too much from my seating distance) High Power Cinema Contour w/Pro-Finish is tops on my list right now. My new projector (PLV-Z3) comes in this week, and I can't wait to test out all the materials Da-Lite sent me. My couch is almost against the rear wall, so the PJ can be mounted a couple feet above and behind, and all three of my seats are within the 30* angle of each screen edge.


Just holding the material you can tell it's high-quality stuff, especially the thickness of it! I hope Da-Lite's frames are of an equal standard.


Great review! The banding shots you made really show off the difference, thanks!


----------



## Toksin

I've read this thread and also looked at Da-Lite's site... I still couldn't find an answer to this question. What is/are the difference(s) between the Standard High Power Model B and Standard High Power Model C? (Aside from about 100 bucks.)


Anyone?


Thanks.


----------



## davidcrowe

I think the model C has heavier duty hardware.


----------



## Nicholas Mosher












I just uploaded this image to my personal webspace and reposted it so others could see it who might have missed it. What a dramatic difference!


Thanks jw15851!


----------



## Dave Mack

Hi Y'all,


Just got an optoma h57 and am currently just using the wall. Fellow AVS member mystery has been an invaluable friend in helping me along. He has both the HCMW and the high power which he uses with an ndh2 filter. Seems to prefer the latter settup for PQ and lack of visible waves. Is there any difference between the model B high power and the "deluxe" version? The deluxe is app: $50 more.


Thanx! Dave


----------



## Rick Guynn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Mack* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Y'all,
> 
> 
> Just got an optoma h57 and am currently just using the wall. Fellow AVS member mystery has been an invaluable friend in helping me along. He has both the HCMW and the high power which he uses with an ndh2 filter. Seems to prefer the latter settup for PQ and lack of visible waves. Is there any difference between the model B high power and the "deluxe" version? The deluxe is app: $50 more.
> 
> 
> Thanx! Dave



I'm pretty sure that the only difference is that the deluxe adds a tensioner bar.


RG


----------



## Itsdon

Has anyone tried the HP screen using a ceiling mounted short throw PJ? The obtuse angle it creates would be different than a long throw PJ. My PJ is ceiling mounted (7.5' high) 9' back of the screen yet I sit 6' behind the PJ or 15' back of the screen. Is this going to dramatically affect the brightness dropoff of this screen vs. a setup where the PJ is mounted directly overhead? Just curious if anyone else has this same combination.


----------



## mdmaclean




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DaViD Boulet* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> my impression of viewing the hipower off-angle (as in ceiling-mount PJ but watching from the opposite angle) is that the gain is *LESS* than a matte-white screen...it actually appears to *REDUCE* the brightness of the image IMO in that scenario. I had a matte-white screen before the hipower and when I got the hipower it forced me to go table-mount because it was too dim. It turned out to be an advantage however, because I moved apartments at the same time and the new one had a concrete ceiling which was too much of a pain to drill.



I was using my projector ceiling mounted, and now hav moved temporarily to an appartment and switched to table top. The difference is pretty noticable, and I think that when I go back to my house I will not ceiling mount again.


I like the high power image a lot, and think that it is worth adjusting the setup to accomodate it.


----------



## italia101




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DaViD Boulet* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have my projector table-mounted (benQ8700+) and honestly couldn't imagine having it ceiling mounted only because of the drop-off in brightness when I stand up and look "down" at the (hipower) screen to simulate the same angle of reflection/viewing.
> 
> 
> However, table-mounted, the image that results is gorgeous! So detailed, excellent grayscale, and the picture has the "pop" of a giant TV screen...
> 
> 
> and the colors...ohhhh....



How high is your table. Or what is the recommended table height for a projector. Projector will be 12 feet back from screen, size is 106 inches


----------



## AKtheaterguy

Maybe a better spot to post my questions.


First off let me say wow what a great web site and thanks for all of the wonderful information. I was completely ignorant to all of this stuff about 2 weeks ago now I know more than most of the salesmen trying to sell me this stuff!


Well I was hoping to be able to answer all of my questions with just using the search function but I've hit a stumbling block with screen choices. I would have never guessed picking a projector would have been easier than picking a screen Anyways, here is my situation:


I have a small den that I have talked my wife into turning into a theater room (12'6 by 11'4) with light colored walls, floors and ceiling and probably (2) small down facing scone lights on dimmers but otherwise light controlled.


So far I have purchased the speakers (Mirage Nanosats), a Yamaha receiver, a progressive scan Sony DVD player, and a BenQ 8700+ projector (in the mail right now).


By way of the layout of the room, seating will be close (2 feet) to the back short wall with about a 20degree viewing angle, and the projector will be ceiling mounted as far back as possible (about a 11' 9 throw distance). The screen will be either a 96 or 106 diagonal electric (covers up a door and wife will not have a pull down). I was planning on mounting the projector level with the top of my viewable screen (18" below the ceiling and 36" above my head)


And finally my question:


Using the Projector Central calculator it shows the need for a .8 or .9 gain screen, depending on screen size. But the only electric non-tensioned that is supposed to be wave free is the Da-lite high power with a 2.8 gain which really throws the calculator for a loop. So then if I understand right, my only option would be to go to a tab tensioned electric, which adds about $1,000 and really just isn't in the budget. Also I see mentioned here another calculator with actual gain numbers more like 1.2ish in my situation and only 600ish llumens from the projector???


So am I screwed here or have I missed something? I realize the screen is an important part of the theater. But is there no way to get a wave free screen without spending as much as I did for the projector?


The reviews I've read on the high power really seamed like what I was after but that calculator didn't think so. Is it full of it? Anybody have a 1000 lumen projector 11-12ft from a high power screen?


----------



## hotshu

Dont worry about the screen gain being too high. You can run the projector on the econo bulb setting. And/or turn down the brightness. A third option is to use a camera filter in front of the lens, eg. a neutral density 2x or 4x to reduce the light output further. The advantage of that is 1/2 way thru the bulb life as the bulb output diminishes, you can remove the filter and have the same viewing brightness as you did when the bulb was new with the filter. Get a video calibration disc like Digital Video Essentials to setup the correct brightness, contrast, etc. levels.


----------



## AKtheaterguy

Good call on turning the bulb down and the filter. My major worry is hot spotting, with such a high lumen output and screen so close.


So next question: The contour electrol or the cosmopolitan electrol? Will one be better for waves than the other?


----------



## scottyb

What is your actual seating distance to the screen?


Scott


----------



## AKtheaterguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottyb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is your actual seating distance to the screen?
> 
> 
> Scott



Right at 10' 6", oh and I've decided on the 92" diag screen (for fitment reasons).


----------



## scottyb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AKtheaterguy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Right at 10' 6", oh and I've decided on the 92" diag screen (for fitment reasons).



That is a GREAT decision. That was why I asked, as my theater is only a touch bigger and that size scree IMO would have been too large. Your new choice should be perfect. Maybe try to find a used Firehawk or call Jason here at AVS


Scott


----------



## basement




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AKtheaterguy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good call on turning the bulb down and the filter. My major worry is hot spotting, with such a high lumen output and screen so close.
> 
> 
> So next question: The contour electrol or the cosmopolitan electrol? Will one be better for waves than the other?



I'm about 12 ft away with a high power and I don't really notice any hotspotting. Now mind you, there is a viewing cone with the screen. There is a noticeable drop off in brightness at seating positions outside of the screen width. The screen is still relatively new but so far no visible wave image artifacts on the image, though physically you can see small waves in the screen if you look from behind the screen.


Incidentally, you mentioned you wanted to mount the projector level with the top of your viewable image. Be careful with that constraint. Many projectors have an image offset. If vertical lens shift is not available then you may have to use keystone correction to square the image on the screen. Another choice would be to use a zero offset projector.


----------



## mark4x4

I have the Da-lite Video Spectra model C with CSR in 54"x96" size. From the start I had some very minor waves (didn't bother me) but after a month it has gotten progressively worse, still not real bad but I see more waving. The waving was most noticable on light panning scences. Actually, the PQ is pretty good with the Video Spectra if it were not for the waving issue. I have the Optoma H78DC3 for reference which outputs 800 lumens and has a contrast ratio of 4000:1.


I bought the screen from David at www.thefinalclick and I can not speak more highly on how he conducts his business. Great customer service and the best prices that I found, also Da-lite recommends David. I called him up and expressed my concern over my screen and he said no problem. I let him know that I wanted to get the High Power in the model C with CSR and he order one today and is having it shipped two day air, so I should have it by Thursday or Friday. I then will call him after the screen gets delivered and he will arrange to have my Video Spectra picked up, with no charge to me.


Reading all the post convinced me to get the HP. My PJ is mounted on a stand that's 4.5' high so that should be ideal for postioning of the PJ. My concern was that it was going to be too bright at night but reading some of the post where using a filter, trying econ mode, or lowering the brightness convinced me that the brightness was no longer a concern. I'm just hoping that the waving factor is less noticable with the HP.


Regards,

Mark


----------



## Itsdon

You should be very happy with your HP. Mine has zero waves, none. It's a model B with no pretentioners. I love it. I watched Charlie and the Chocolate factory with my kids last night and the colors this thing produced was like jumping into a Crayola box - very nice.


----------



## mark4x4

My other concern with the HP is the narrow viewing cone. I've read where the viewing cone is 25 degrees, how would I equate this in the real world. I will be sitting 14' from the HP 54"x 96" screen. If I sit one person outside the screen at 14' would I be out of the viewing cone?


Thanks for any help,

Mark


----------



## vfrjim

Please be kind (purchasing my first projector/screen) and have a question with placement. I plan on installing the projector behind the rear wall(on a shelf) , about 12" from the ceiling with the screen being on the opposite wall and also being about 12" from the ceiling. Is this a problem or is this an ideal location. This is approximate, so I would say +/- 2"(in height location). I plan on purchasing the high power screen since viewing cone is not an issue (only 10' wide room). Is there any features that I would need to have on the projector that I choose to make sure that I will have an adjustment to allign the image? All info is appreciated.


Thanks.


----------



## basement




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mark4x4* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My other concern with the HP is the narrow viewing cone. I've read where the viewing cone is 20 degrees, how would I equate this in the real world. I will be sitting 14' from the HP 54"x 96" screen. If I sit one person outside the screen at 14' would I be out of the viewing cone?
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help,
> 
> Mark



You may be able to get more quantitave answers from posts from members tryg, steinre, itsdon, darinp and others (If if left out anybody I apologize in advance). They have done signficant testing on viewing cones on gain screens. From my experience, as you move to the side from the centerline of the screen the brightness will start to drop off. At the edge of the screen I would estimate a loss of brightness of about 10-15%. Seated just outside of the screen edge the screen brightness is roughly equivalent to a unity gain screen, maybe a little brighter. To put it another way, you will notice that within the screen width you will see a bright, punchy picture, with great colours. Outside of the screen it will be a little less so, but not nearly enough for anyone to say that it looks bad or dim. It's all relative.


----------



## basement




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vfrjim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Please be kind (purchasing my first projector/screen) and have a question with placement. I plan on installing the projector behind the rear wall(on a shelf) , about 12" from the ceiling with the screen being on the opposite wall and also being about 12" from the ceiling. Is this a problem or is this an ideal location. This is approximate, so I would say +/- 2"(in height location). I plan on purchasing the high power screen since viewing cone is not an issue (only 10' wide room). Is there any features that I would need to have on the projector that I choose to make sure that I will have an adjustment to allign the image? All info is appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Two things.


Most projectors have an offset. If you were to mount the projector with its lens at the same height as the top of the viewing area of your screen then the top of the picture will be displayed somewhere below the top of the screen depending on the amount of offset. Some, like the benq pe7700 is zero offset which means it will work perfectly with your intended placement. For others, projectors with a vertical shift capability can be used to adjust the image placement without the use of digital keystone, which is generally discouraged. If vertical shift is not available, then you want to take the offset into account as part of the install.


The high power gives you its highest gain mounted as close to the primary viewing position as possible, that is at eye level when seated. Some might find it too bright at that position but this can be fixed with an ND2 filter on the projector. I think da-lite actually recommends table mounts for use with this screen. However, a lot of people are using it with ceiling mount as you still get most of its benefits.


----------



## REW

Hipower must be the best selling screen in the world.Especially concerning the 5million wrong posts about narrow viewing cone,hotspotting,waves etc.

The owners of HP are it's biggest booster.On top of everything it's incredibly inexpensive,hence most dealers and competitors -hate it!

They should price it at $18K like Stewart Cinecurve then tons of people who equate high price with performance would be thrilled.

Nobody is perfect but not looking forward to another 5Mil posts saying "I wonder if HP is flawed", by posters.


----------



## mark4x4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *REW* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hipower must be the best selling screen in the world.Especially concerning the 5million wrong posts about narrow viewing cone,hotspotting,waves etc.
> 
> The owners of HP are it's biggest booster.On top of everything it's incredibly inexpensive,hence most dealers and competitors -hate it!
> 
> They should price it at $18K like Stewart Cinecurve then tons of people who equate high price with performance would be thrilled.
> 
> Nobody is perfect but not looking forward to another 5Mil posts saying "I wonder if HP is flawed", by posters.



Rew,


We all come here to receive and give info on a hobby we all enjoy. I've made most of my decisions (my pj-Optoma H78DC3, screen-DA HP, dvd player-Oppo DV971H and sub-2 HSU VTF-3 MK2) based on what I've learned and read from this forum.


The Da-lite website states the viewing cone on the HP to be 25 degrees which is much less than other screens. My Video Spectra is listed at 35 degrees and I have no viewing cone issues with this screen.


Since, I have the HP coming this week I hope you're right that it's the right screen for me, but I believe my question about the narrow viewing cone and the waving issue is a legitimate question.


Mark


----------



## REW

If and when your 2 worries are vanquished, many look for forward to a retraction.It has happened countless times before.Unless you have a very small room.

Doubting Thomas should have been a forum member.


----------



## mark4x4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *REW* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If and when your 2 worries are vanquished, many look for forward to a retraction.It has happened countless times before.Unless you have a very small room.
> 
> Doubting Thomas should have been a forum member.



Are we living in the United States? Oh, I forgot YOU live in Canada but here we have freedom of speech. What is the idea behind a forum? To discussion issues and exchange ideas, to become more informed and bottom line to share.


You need to calm down. What's your problem? I certainly do not owe you a retraction and I don't believe other member here care, simply because I asked a question that concerned me about this screen. I will post my findings after receiving my screen.


Take a couple valiums and chill


----------



## maxleung

The HP is a good screen. It DOES have a viewing cone - verified by people with instrumentation. I have seen the Hipower myself, and liked it. I am planning to get one soon to pair with a ceiling mount projector.


The only issue I have is that I may like the image from table mounting so much that I may not even bother with ceiling mount - but then the projector will be in the way! I wish my Benq 8700+ had a longer throw so that I could put it behind me on a shelf, just behind my head and still have the maximum possible gain.


A few respected members (David Boulet, among others) here tried ceiling mount at first, but eventually went with table mount because they became addicted to the bright image within the viewing cone.


Decisions decisions.


----------



## Kilgore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mark4x4* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are we living in the United States? Oh, I forgot YOU live in Canada but here we have freedom of speech. What is the idea behind a forum? To discussion issues and exchange ideas, to become more informed and bottom line to share.



You are perfectly justified in being put off by REW's comments...but your "Canada" comment doesn't really help. Being a proud Canadian who loves his country, such comments rub me the wrong way, regardless of the true intent.


Back on topic, I have a 133" Permwall HP screen with a Sanyo Z2 on a shelf behind me about a foot over my head. I LOVE this screen.


----------



## Rick Guynn

I agree with max. There most definitely _is_ a viewing cone, and it _is_ pretty narrow. However, when you are within that cone, the picture is gorgeous. The picture outside the cone is good, but once you get used to the dead-on image, you'd be disappointed to be on the outside of it. I have a smallish DIY screen I made out of HP material and wish I could get a full-up screen, but my situation/setup doesn't currently allow it. Even knowing the viewing cone, I would buy a highpower in a heartbeat.


RG


----------



## mark4x4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kilgore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You are perfectly justified in being put off by REW's comments...but your "Canada" comment doesn't really help. Being a proud Canadian who loves his country, such comments rub me the wrong way, regardless of the true intent.
> 
> 
> Back on topic, I have a 133" Permwall HP screen with a Sanyo Z2 on a shelf behind me about a foot over my head. I LOVE this screen.



Hey Kilgore,


You are totally right and I apologize to you and all Canadians for that comment, it was uncalled for. It's never good to say or write anything when you're upset. I enjoy this forum because of people like you and the rest that contribute their info and experiences, so we all can expand our own knowledge.










Best Regards,

Mark


----------



## maxleung

Darin posted a set of measurements - angle versus gain here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6404812 


Subjectively, the dropoff is more subtle than the measurements suggest. Most people wouldn't notice unless they looked at it from the sweet spot, then moved away from it.


----------



## basement




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maxleung* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Darin posted a set of measurements - angle versus gain here:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6404812
> 
> 
> Subjectively, the dropoff is more subtle than the measurements suggest. Most people wouldn't notice unless they looked at it from the sweet spot, then moved away from it.



Yes. I had a bunch of people over last weekend. None of them noticed it until I mentioned it. But since you know it's there the tendancy is to comment on it until you get the impression from reading a lot of posts that it's a big negative, which imo it's not.


----------



## mbaxter

Contrary to popular myth, there are plenty of folks who bought High Power screens and were displeased with the result. It is not a magic material that looks great in all situations. Indeed, it is a fact that High Power looks worse than a matte white screen when the projector is ceiling mounted 8ft or higher.


High Power is often touted for its wave-hiding ability. This is quite true as long as the angle between your eyes and the pj lens is within 10-15 degrees. You see, the High Power hides waves not because of its thick vinyl backing (that's only a small factor). It hides waves because it's retroreflective (you don't see the waves due to the nature of the reflection). If the thick vinyl backing helped reduce waves, then the Dalite Video Spectra (which has the exact same vinyl backing) would also benefit, and it clearly does not (VS is wavy as hell).


Now listen because this is very important: the High Power's wave-hidng ability disappears when you are out of the viewing cone. That's right; ceiling mount your projector with a high power and all those waves you couldn't see before will now become visible.


Another problem with ceiling mount + High Power: it looks awesome when you're standing up, then turns to crap when you sit down. Awestruck guests won't notice at first (they're too amazed by front projection to be picky). But *you* will. As if that weren't bad enough, when you sit down to the side now you're losing even more gain.


Once again it needs to be stated: if you've got low ceilings and don't mind hanging the projector down even lower (7ft or less) High Power is great. And of course, if you are shelf, table, or floor mounting, you'd be crazy to buy anything but a High Power as its simply the best material for those situations bar none.


But make no mistake, if room limitations, asthetics, or projector throw angles dictate a high ceiling mount (8ft or more), you will throw away not only the gain but also the wave-reducing benefits of the High Power, ending up with a dim and wavy screen that only looks good when you stand up.


Don't be fooled by the enthusiasm of people trying to justify their own purchases. That's an easy trap to fall into.


----------



## basement

I would concur with mbaxter's comments. It is sometimes difficult to temper enthusiasm even when you know you should when dispensing advice. My own decision to go with a particular screen, or in fact any piece of the chain in front projection required quite a bit of research because it isn't a matter of seeing a product, placing it in a corner and enjoying it. For screens, it is even harder as most vendors do not typically show more than a few so you need to pick through a lot of information from other sources then take a sometimes sight unseen leap of faith.


For me, most of the constraints listed above was known to me (although not the part about visible waves outside of the viewing cone). My pj mounting height is about 6.5ft. putting my seating more or less in the viewing cone, even when sitting down. For other installs with different constraints, it might not work.


regards


----------



## mdmaclean




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mbaxter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now listen because this is very important: the High Power's wave-hidng ability disappears when you are out of the viewing cone. That's right; ceiling mount your projector with a high power and all those waves you couldn't see before will now become visible.



I did not notice this issue with my high power, and had seats outside of the viewing cone for sure. Have many people noticed his problem?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mbaxter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Once again it needs to be stated: if you've got low ceilings and don't mind hanging the projector down even lower (7ft or less) High Power is great. And of course, if you are shelf, table, or floor mounting, you'd be crazy to buy anything but a High Power as its simply the best material for those situations bar none.
> 
> 
> But make no mistake, if room limitations, asthetics, or projector throw angles dictate a high ceiling mount (8ft or more), you will throw away not only the gain but also the wave-reducing benefits of the High Power, ending up with a dim and wavy screen that only looks good when you stand up.



I had high ceilings, and just mounted my projector down to about the 7 foot level to solve the problem, using a proper ceiling mount. I also ordered my screen with extra drop to allow it to hang at the correct height. This might be what you are really suggesting here.


----------



## mbaxter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mdmaclean* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I did not notice this issue with my high power, and had seats outside of the viewing cone for sure. Have many people noticed his problem?



Your screen probably isn't very wavy to begin with. Also, your low mounting height helps.



> Quote:
> I had high ceilings, and just mounted my projector down to about the 7 foot level to solve the problem, using a proper ceiling mount. I also ordered my screen with extra drop to allow it to hang at the correct height. This might be what you are really suggesting here.



Like I said, that's the way to do it. But a lot of people can't or won't hang a projector down that low, especially those whose living room doubles as a home theater.


Notice that everyone who touts the High Power has their projector mounted on a table, a shelf, or a very low hanging ceiling mount (like yours). Not everyone can do this.


----------



## italia101

After reading the above reviews, I decided to go for the 45x80 HighPower screen. However, after calling around for pricing, most guys are saying I'm crazy to use this screen fabric at all, even more so with the 45x80 screen size. Picture will be too bright to watch in a dark room. I will table mount and projector is 1100 lumens. Any advice? I would like to buy in the next few days. Thanks


----------



## Bytehoven

I just installed the 45x80 HP for use with the Sony HS-51 and it's a wonderful screen.


If you find your setup is too bright, you can always add a 2x ND filter.


The biggest concern is projector location and cone effect.


I found I had to reloacte my projector from it's ceiling mount, in order to get the best gain.


I would buy the HP again.


Happy shopping


----------



## Nedtsc

How does HI-Power handle abient light rejection? Thanks.


----------



## jw15851

very well. Generally speaking it reflects light back mostly in the direction from which it came. So if you have a lamp beside you, you'll have a problem. But a light source such as track lighting (pointed away from screen) or illumination in another part of the room, are much less of an issue.


I had installed track lighting to aim at walls, pictures, and the seating area, taking care to make sure the lights were pointed such that the screen could not "see" any of the actual light bulb or glass.


This worked very well, and the screen was very very watchable with enough illumination in the room to easily read a book or magazine. For movies though we would still dim the lights quite a bit.


-Jason W


----------



## Nedtsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jw15851* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> very well. Generally speaking it reflects light back mostly in the direction from which it came. So if you have a lamp beside you, you'll have a problem. But a light source such as track lighting (pointed away from screen) or illumination in another part of the room, are much less of an issue.
> 
> 
> I had installed track lighting to aim at walls, pictures, and the seating area, taking care to make sure the lights were pointed such that the screen could not "see" any of the actual light bulb or glass.
> 
> 
> This worked very well, and the screen was very very watchable with enough illumination in the room to easily read a book or magazine. For movies though we would still dim the lights quite a bit.
> 
> 
> -Jason W



Thanks. What do you mean by movies requiring more dim light? Does it appear wash out on bright lights?


----------



## jw15851

I just mean when we are sort of formally watching a movie, we'll dim the lights for better results. With any screen, movies look better with the lights dimmed. But it works quite well on it's own.


----------



## tubaprde

Hi Guys,


Great thread! I've learned so much about retroreflective/hipower screens! I've got an optoma greywolf, this is also retroreflective, w/1.8 gain, and is dark grey--do you think this screen has the same types of characterstics as the highpower?


From what i hear you all talking about it sounds like it is (good with ambient light, great looking when in "the zone", drops off when not in "the zone" (and thats why i'm changing my pj from cieilng mount to shelf mount).



What are your thoughts?


----------



## longshot

I have a 100" Firehawk to go with my Sim2 300E. It (firehawk) was originally bought with the Sharp 9000 four years ago. I want more pop. Would the Hi-Power work with the Sim?


----------



## doug_p

I recently purchased a 37.5" by 67" Model B manual pulldown HP, and I would say most of what has been discussed in this thread holds true. I have no waves that I can see whatsoever, although this wasn't a problem for me even when I could see them in my old DIY pulldown. No question that the highest amount of light is reflected directly back at the source, and this causes somewhat of a viewing cone, but the dropoff in picture quality is very minimal outside that cone. It seems to me that the cone that does exist, however, is noticeable once you get more than 15-20 degrees off center. But again, IMO it's not a big deal, particularly for my room configuration. YMMV.


The best thing I like about this screen is that when watching HD sports I can still have a light on in the room for reading without any picture degregation. At least none that I could see while watching HD football last night with my 1300 lumen projector.


This screen does pop a very bright picture, and maybe that's too much for some people but personally I like it bright so it's OK for me. I figure when I get a new projector in a couple of months (which will be about a 4 generation jump for me), the screen brightness will be just right due to lower lumen output and better contrast ratio that a new projector will bring.


----------



## mark4x4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kev1000000* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ^ thanks a lot man, that really does help...
> 
> 
> Im mounting it tomorrow, and ill take some pics so people can have even more info on these two screen types, and ill give a tiny review on the HCMW...
> 
> 
> Im sure ill love it, but with all this info and people saying the High Power was fantastic, i felt like i made the wrong decision.
> 
> 
> But at any rate, the HCMW will improve my picture over my off-white wall by a lot!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks mystery!



Hey Kev,


I had the Da-lite Video Spectra for few months but it developed some waving and Da-lite exchange it for the HP which I love. The HP is a much better screen in terms of picture quality and no waving. I have heard issues with the HCMW with waving problems.


I have the Optoma H78DC3 PJ for reference, which outputs 800 lumens, I use it in the econo mode and the picture is great. Contrast levels are very good and blacks levels also also are very good and detailed.


Da-lite customer servide is excellent, if you think that you would like to make a change, I would call Da-lite and see what they can do for you. Worst case scenerio would be that you would have to pay a restocking fee but if you ordered a screen that isn't custom they may just exchange the screen for you, it's worth a try if you want the HP.


IMHO, I would go with the HP, my HP lays perfectly flat, not a hint of a wave and you would get more flexibility with this screen over the HCMW.


Good luck,

Mark


----------



## ockevin

Would like some of your opinions on my situation. I just upgraded from an X1 to a Mits 3000. This pj is much brighter, but I am changing the location: from the X1 on a table top 12' throw to a matte white screen, to the mits 3000 15' throw from a ceiling mount at 7'3". Its plenty bright at night on the old matte white, but would like something with a little more gain for day use.


Dalite says get Video Spectra - because ceiling mounted. They claim VS is no more wavy than HP. But many have stated that VS is wave prone. I had no issues with my matte white, even though I know it is not laying perfectly flat. Whould VS be worse, and why? And why would Dalite state that it is not any more wavy than HP?


----------



## mdmaclean




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ockevin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would like some of your opinions on my situation. I just upgraded from an X1 to a Mits 3000. This pj is much brighter, but I am changing the location: from the X1 on a table top 12' throw to a matte white screen, to the mits 3000 15' throw from a ceiling mount at 7'3". Its plenty bright at night on the old matte white, but would like something with a little more gain for day use.
> 
> 
> Dalite says get Video Spectra - because ceiling mounted. They claim VS is no more wavy than HP. But many have stated that VS is wave prone. I had no issues with my matte white, even though I know it is not laying perfectly flat. Whould VS be worse, and why? And why would Dalite state that it is not any more wavy than HP?



Dalite may be right and they are both equally prone to waves. A real difference is that with a retroreflective screen, the waves don't create any significant brightness changes, which tends to make them less noticable. I have waves, but you only see them when the shot pans and it creates some extra "movement". The brightness is even over the waves.


----------



## mark4x4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ockevin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would like some of your opinions on my situation. I just upgraded from an X1 to a Mits 3000. This pj is much brighter, but I am changing the location: from the X1 on a table top 12' throw to a matte white screen, to the mits 3000 15' throw from a ceiling mount at 7'3". Its plenty bright at night on the old matte white, but would like something with a little more gain for day use.
> 
> 
> Dalite says get Video Spectra - because ceiling mounted. They claim VS is no more wavy than HP. But many have stated that VS is wave prone. I had no issues with my matte white, even though I know it is not laying perfectly flat. Whould VS be worse, and why? And why would Dalite state that it is not any more wavy than HP?



On the VS I had the waving got progressively worse the longer I had the screen. It started out with one minor wave on each side but after a few months it started to develope into a "V" shape towards the middle of the screen. This waving was pretty dramatic and very noticeable when just hanging and during viewing. I thought pulling down the screen daily may have help worsen the waving so I left it in the down position but that didn't help at all.


I've had my HP for 3-4 months and it lays perfectly flat. The VS material is much heavier, stiffer, and thicker than the HP. The HP is much more pliable, so it hangs much better. IMHO, I would have to disagree with Da-Lite, the HP has less issues with waving and that's from my own experience and doing allot of research. I have the HP in the Model C with CSR. I would spend the extra $$ for the Model C over the Model B because the it uses bigger rollers and the CSR feature doesn't roll the screen up as tightly which I believe helps relieve the waving issue.


Happy New Year


----------



## tubaprde




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ockevin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would like some of your opinions on my situation. I just upgraded from an X1 to a Mits 3000. This pj is much brighter, but I am changing the location: from the X1 on a table top 12' throw to a matte white screen, to the mits 3000 15' throw from a ceiling mount at 7'3". Its plenty bright at night on the old matte white, but would like something with a little more gain for day use.
> 
> 
> Dalite says get Video Spectra - because ceiling mounted. They claim VS is no more wavy than HP. But many have stated that VS is wave prone. I had no issues with my matte white, even though I know it is not laying perfectly flat. Whould VS be worse, and why? And why would Dalite state that it is not any more wavy than HP?



Da lite told u to go w/ the spectra b/c its probalbly an angular-reflective screen--much better for ceiling mounted pj.


----------



## cutman0122




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jw15851* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK. A lot of people have been wanting this. This site has helped me out a lot in my decision making, and I hope this helps to "pass it along". Due to reasons I won't bore anyone with yet, I ended up with a Dalite Model B High Contrast Matte White, and a High Power Screen.
> 
> 
> I'm shooting a 1HD (Z1) Ceiling mounted.
> 
> 
> What follows are is a short review, and a series of pictures comparing the HighPower to the HighContrast Matte White. And, a picture showing the brightness change at extreme angles.
> 
> 
> I have a short AVI Movie also I'll link to, showing the change in brightness as I rapidly move around the room.
> 
> 
> 
> The Short Review:
> 
> 
> The HCMW gives better blacks. The black bars visible on the screen when watching 4:3 video on my 16:9 projector, are almost black, and not at all noticeable. You also have complete viewing location flexibility, with no loss in brightness. But, you can't easily clean the screen, and it isn't as bright as the highpower. Waves are noticeable on this screen.
> 
> 
> The Highpower does change in brightness as you move around the room, but very minimally. It seems to fluctuate about 10% visually from one extreme to the other. NOT AT ALL as bad as a rear projection TV. Not even close. Blacks are a bit less black, but the picture is more vibrant, colors pop more, and it can be cleaned. Waves are noticeable, but much less so, and only when scenes are panning and your eyes happen to track over a wave in the screen. It is much much better in that regard.
> 
> 
> My vote? I'm definitely keeping the Highpower. Can you sit on the floor and watch TV? YES. Does it get brighter when you stand up from a seated position? (ceiling mount projector) yeah a bit, but not as much as you might think. I'd say you lose about 5% sitting, and another 5% when on the floor. (see movie if you want to see it in 'live action')
> 
> 
> What follows are the images, and a link to the movie. (hopefully if I can get it uploaded)
> 
> 
> Enjoy and i hope this helps people who were in the same boat I was, unable to decide between screens. All they hype about High Power, is true. It really is as good as everyone says.
> 
> 
> -Jason W



Incredible work, I'm sold! Thank you very much.


----------



## DaViD Boulet

Are we allowed to post "for sale" stuff in these threads?


If so...I've got a manual pull-down hi-power Dalite 106" diagonal screen I will be selling in the next few months to get a Firehawk. The reason for the change is that in my old apt. my BenQ was table-mounted and the hipower was *perfect*...juicy and bright. But in my new place I had to ceiling mount and with the PJ up high to not hit heads the image looks too dim to my eyes from a seated position.


PM or email me if interested...


----------



## cutman0122

You have mail!


----------



## calv1n

Thanks for the review! Great work.

Cheers

Calvin


----------



## jfm

Question for Jason W


First, thanks for the thread. My question is about the precise height of your projector lens from the floor, which I don't seem to be able to find in the thread. Sorry if I just missed it -- so could I ask, how high is the center of your lens from the floor? thanks!


----------



## cutman0122




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sushi* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Excellent pictures, movie, and the narrative, Jason! Thanks!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the brightness change shown in the movie, I would say this is about what I see subjectively on my High Power. I do see about this much of change when I QUICKLY walk around.
> 
> 
> However, human eyes have this amazing capability of quickly adapting to the overall luminance of what you are looking at. So if you are actually watching a movie, the perceived brightness change will very quickly "wean off" within a minute or so. Again, another key thing here is, as you see in the movie, the brightness changes perfectly UNIFORMLY across the screen. No unpleasant hot spotting or super-narrow vertical viewing angle often seen in the RPTVs.
> 
> 
> FYI, I am projecting onto a 120"-diagonal, from the Yamaha LPX-500 table-mounted with the lens center at 42" above the floor (about my eye level when I sit up tall).




I'm sold on the offset viewing. But what about the blacks, are the pictures an accurate representation of actual black level? Is it lighter or darker in reference to the pictures? Thanks!


Gerald


----------



## chinch




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DaViD Boulet* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are we allowed to post "for sale" stuff in these threads?



I guess so...










I am switching from 106" 16x9 High Power Dalite Perm-wall to a smaller matte white so if anyone wants a great screen in a smoke-free environment PM me otherwise it will go to auction in a week or so.


The High Power is a nice screen and i wouldn't let the "view angle" or ceiling/floor mount effect your buying decision really. For a pitch-black theatre and close view distance it can be overpowering however.


For manual pulldowns it's also pretty much wrinkle-free.


----------



## cutman0122




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chinch* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I guess so...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am switching from 106" 16x9 High Power Dalite Perm-wall to a smaller matte white so if anyone wants a great screen in a smoke-free environment PM me otherwise it will go to auction in a week or so.
> 
> 
> The High Power is a nice screen and i wouldn't let the "view angle" or ceiling/floor mount effect your buying decision really. For a pitch-black theatre and close view distance it can be overpowering however.
> 
> 
> For manual pulldowns it's also pretty much wrinkle-free.





You have mail!


----------



## cutman0122




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jw15851* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK. A lot of people have been wanting this. This site has helped me out a lot in my decision making, and I hope this helps to "pass it along". Due to reasons I won't bore anyone with yet, I ended up with a Dalite Model B High Contrast Matte White, and a High Power Screen.
> 
> 
> I'm shooting a 1HD (Z1) Ceiling mounted.
> 
> 
> What follows are is a short review, and a series of pictures comparing the HighPower to the HighContrast Matte White. And, a picture showing the brightness change at extreme angles.
> 
> 
> I have a short AVI Movie also I'll link to, showing the change in brightness as I rapidly move around the room.
> 
> 
> 
> The Short Review:
> 
> 
> The HCMW gives better blacks. The black bars visible on the screen when watching 4:3 video on my 16:9 projector, are almost black, and not at all noticeable. You also have complete viewing location flexibility, with no loss in brightness. But, you can't easily clean the screen, and it isn't as bright as the highpower. Waves are noticeable on this screen.
> 
> 
> The Highpower does change in brightness as you move around the room, but very minimally. It seems to fluctuate about 10% visually from one extreme to the other. NOT AT ALL as bad as a rear projection TV. Not even close. Blacks are a bit less black, but the picture is more vibrant, colors pop more, and it can be cleaned. Waves are noticeable, but much less so, and only when scenes are panning and your eyes happen to track over a wave in the screen. It is much much better in that regard.
> 
> 
> My vote? I'm definitely keeping the Highpower. Can you sit on the floor and watch TV? YES. Does it get brighter when you stand up from a seated position? (ceiling mount projector) yeah a bit, but not as much as you might think. I'd say you lose about 5% sitting, and another 5% when on the floor. (see movie if you want to see it in 'live action')
> 
> 
> What follows are the images, and a link to the movie. (hopefully if I can get it uploaded)
> 
> 
> Enjoy and i hope this helps people who were in the same boat I was, unable to decide between screens. All they hype about High Power, is true. It really is as good as everyone says.
> 
> 
> -Jason W



Just wanted to tack on. Finally got my HP and everything Jason said about the the HP is right on the money!! Got mine ceiling mounted as well. Thank you Jason!


Gerald


----------



## foobart

I had the Optoma Graywolf with my Infocus 4805 and was quite unhappy with the picture. After reading a bunch over here, and demoing samples I bought the Hipower and have had it for about 2 months. Couldn't be happier. Everything said here is true. Build quality is great, colors are vibrant, and waves are not noticeable at all (so far..) I like the bright picture so far, but I'm going to try an ND2 filter and see if I like that better.


Money well spent..


----------



## Rxs

This thread has convinced me to go with the high power screen. Brightness is my #1 priority. Thanks for the great information


My only problem is that the permawall and other fixed screen versions of the high power are much more expensive than the pull-down. My ceilings are too low to get a pulldown and I'm to cheap to pay for the permawall. Has anyone tried to build their own? What about cutting the fabric from the pulldown and using wallpaper adhesive to attach it to a primed piece of plywood or other material? I also thought of using velcro around the entire perimeter of the fabric and attaching it that way.


Any ideas are greatly appreciated.


----------



## anam8tr

I'm about to take the plunge for the HP da lite, but not too sure if it's too bright for me. Da lite sent me some samples, but there only 6" big so it's very hard to tell the differences between them.


My setup: Z4, 120" home elite (1.0 gain), 23'10 ceiling mounted (7' 6") and seating is 15'.


I was interested in the video spectra but didn't think the gain was enough when seated. So the HP looks promising but would hate to special order a screen that I'm stuck with (like my Home Elite screen). Dvd's through HDMI look great but just doesn't pop and my SD material is already blown out. I can hopefully compensate for the SD material by bringing contrast and lens iris down. Also, definately need a electric screen, damn playful dogs...


Any suggestions?


----------



## coolhand

I have no desire for a rolling screen. I am without children and pets and want a permanent screen. Unfortunately, the perm screen prices are out of this world. My plan is to buy the 96X96 High Power model B cut it down to a 54X96 screen (1.78), sell the remaining ~41X96 (2.35). I figure this could get the price down under $200. I already have a frame built for my BO screen (YUCK!!!!). I would attach a nice trim wrapped with velvet (another $60 total). Does anyone see any problems with this plan?? I had intended to go with Goo but it seems like this wouldn't cost me too much more and I don't have to sweat the painting while keeping resale options open.


My Panasonic 300 (I don't want to hear it, I still love this thing) is ceiling mounted (~7'), my back row is on riser and eye level is ~70" from floor, 16 feet from screen. I figure this should give me a pretty sweet gain from my back row. Unsuspecting visitors will be in the front row which will not be nearly as bright but they are always thrilled just to see a big screen like that anyways. I'm pulling the trigger tomorrow unless someone can give me a reason not to (before my sample piece from Da-Lite even gets to me)


----------



## cutman0122




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This thread has convinced me to go with the high power screen. Brightness is my #1 priority. Thanks for the great information
> 
> 
> My only problem is that the permawall and other fixed screen versions of the high power are much more expensive than the pull-down. My ceilings are too low to get a pulldown and I'm to cheap to pay for the permawall. Has anyone tried to build their own? What about cutting the fabric from the pulldown and using wallpaper adhesive to attach it to a primed piece of plywood or other material? I also thought of using velcro around the entire perimeter of the fabric and attaching it that way.
> 
> 
> Any ideas are greatly appreciated.




Shouldn't have to cut material from a pull down, DaLite screen materials can be had all by themselves.


----------



## coolhand

C'mon! Your name is Cutman!


You can GET the material all on its own but as discussed at length (even on this thread I believe) it is still cheaper (by up to 50%!!) to buy a B and cut the material out of it than to buy the material itself. Makes no sense but thats the way it is sold.


----------



## Rxs

I think you have a great idea coolhand. I will be doing the same when my basement is finished.


It makes no sense to spend so much money to have Da Lite frame it for you.


----------



## millerwill

I've asked this question in another thread, but it is very relevant to this one, so let me put it to those of you here:


I am considering two possible screen set-ups that are feasible for me: (1) a HiPower, with the pj on a stand about 3 to 4 ft high, ~ 13.5 ft from the screen (i.e., centered right on the middle of the screen). Thinking of a 110" (diag) screen, viewed from ~ 12 ft. (2) a Firehawk, with the pj ceiling mounted ~ 7 ft off the floor and ~ 16 ft from the screen. My room is fairly dark, but not a 'bat cave' (i.e., light colored ceiling and walls, and some light through windows with closed mini-blinds--but not direct sunlight).


Does anyone with some experience in these matters know which screen will be more satisfactory in this situation?


----------



## coolhand

First off I am no expert and have not even seen either (though I am very close on the HP) but it seems to me these two screens are on opposite ends of the spectrum. The HP is a very high gain retroflelective screen with a fairly tight viewing angle. The firehawk is an angular reflective screen that is DARK gray. It has better gain than almost any gray screen out there but due to the gain and color it hotspots and has sparklies. Great screen when ceiling mounted and importance of blacks is considerable, but it also costs CONSIDERABLY more. I really don't even put these two in the same category as their benefits are dissimilar. Value wise I think if you can table mount the HP and can sit in the captain's chair you would have a hard time matching the HP. Tryg's exuberance sold me on it. Just waiting for AVS to give me a quote but after MUCH deliberation I decided on an HP.


----------



## millerwill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *coolhand* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First off I am no expert and have not even seen either (though I am very close on the HP) but it seems to me these two screens are on opposite ends of the spectrum. The HP is a very high gain retroflelective screen with a fairly tight viewing angle. The firehawk is an angular reflective screen that is DARK gray. It has better gain than almost any gray screen out there but due to the gain and color it hotspots and has sparklies. Great screen when ceiling mounted and importance of blacks is considerable, but it also costs CONSIDERABLY more. I really don't even put these two in the same category as their benefits are dissimilar. Value wise I think if you can table mount the HP and can sit in the captain's chair you would have a hard time matching the HP. Tryg's exuberance sold me on it. Just waiting for AVS to give me a quote but after MUCH deliberation I decided on an HP.



I understand that they are quite different, and need to be set up differently (I can set up either one correctly). My question (several posts up) was which one would be more effective in a non-totally light-controlled situation. I understand that the FH's gray screen rejects ambient light better, but the narrower viewing cone, and higher brightness, of the HP works in its favor. It just isn't clear to me--since I can't see them in action--which would be more satisfactory.


----------



## Nedtsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *millerwill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I understand that they are quite different, and need to be set up differently (I can set up either one correctly). My question (several posts up) was which one would be more effective in a non-totally light-controlled situation. I understand that the FH's gray screen rejects ambient light better, but the narrower viewing cone, and higher brightness, of the HP works in its favor. It just isn't clear to me--since I can't see them in action--which would be more satisfactory.



I suggest you order some samples and take a look at it yourself as people have different ambient light situation.


In my application I've rule out Firehawk as it is similar to my graywolf in rejecting ambient light. I'm down to either HP or Silverstar.


----------



## millerwill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nedtsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In my application I've rule out Firehawk as it is similar to my graywolf in rejecting ambient light. I'm down to either HP or Silverstar.



Will be interested to hear which you choose. I've read that the SS is very poor with ambient light because it has such a wide viewing cone (which can be good if you're needing this, though).


----------



## Alan Gouger

I do not understand this thread. I looked at the pictures and I cannot see a difference. Which is what or what is which?
































Just playing with you. Great screen shots. Im with all the HP supporters. A great screen


----------



## Nedtsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *millerwill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will be interested to hear which you choose. I've read that the SS is very poor with ambient light because it has such a wide viewing cone (which can be good if you're needing this, though).



I was surprised too but when I tried the samples SS looks brighther and had better contrast than HP. Firehawk and graywolf have much less ambient rejection. BTW my ambient light condition refers to natural daylight.


----------



## coolhand

I just got my HP sample. I was really surprised at how much the blacks lightened up. There is so much punch to the screen that I think I am still going to go for it but if black level is an issue to you I would grab a free sample from Da-Lite before you make your decision.


----------



## millerwill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nedtsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was surprised too but when I tried the samples SS looks brighther and had better contrast than HP. Firehawk and graywolf have much less ambient rejection. BTW my ambient light condition refers to natural daylight.



You say that the FH and GW have "much less ambient rejection" than the SS. Don't you mean that they are less affected by ambient light than the SS?


----------



## Nedtsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *millerwill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You say that the FH and GW have "much less ambient rejection" than the SS. Don't you mean that they are less affected by ambient light than the SS?



In my application, it is just the opposite. Get a sample of SS and you'll see what I mean.


----------



## Nedtsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *coolhand* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just got my HP sample. I was really surprised at how much the blacks lightened up. There is so much punch to the screen that I think I am still going to go for it but if black level is an issue to you I would grab a free sample from Da-Lite before you make your decision.



True. But then this depend on your projector to do the black level.


----------



## Nedtsc

At this point SS wins being able to reject ambient light *IN MY SETTING* as well as provide a bright and good contrast in the overall picture.


----------



## albo75

A lot of folks speak about ordering samples of Da-Lite's screen material from their website, but I've found nothing there that allows me to do that. Should I just call them and make the request?


----------



## Itsdon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *albo75* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A lot of folks speak about ordering samples of Da-Lite's screen material from their website, but I've found nothing there that allows me to do that. Should I just call them and make the request?



Yep - they'll mail a 12" X 12" sample of any of their materials directly to you. The sample is a good indicator of the quality of the HP material but I found it difficult to get a good perspective of how a whole screen would look. I was constantly holding it at arms length in the middle of the night with a movie on moving it up, down, left & right. I tell you, if my fiance wasn't already convinced I was obsessed with my projector that night must have pushed her over the edge!










The sample is nice but it doesn't do the screen justice - you just have to see it. I am continually impressed with the silky smoothness of the picture and the eye popping colors it throws at you. Another member here described the HP as being almost 'magical', I'd have to agree.


----------



## albo75

I'm leaning towards the HP material for my Optoma H31 (lots of positive reviews in the screens forum) but I worry about my ceiling mounted unit, and my eye level of about 4 feet below the projector's lens. Any thoughts?


----------



## millerwill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nedtsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> At this point SS wins being able to reject ambient light *IN MY SETTING* as well as provide a bright and good contrast in the overall picture.



Very interesting. From earlier posts (e.g. one thread comparing the Screen Innovations 'Mirage', a Stewart Firehawk, and the SS) with ambient light, the SS was noticeably poorer. Of course the Mirage is VERY expensive, and the FH somewhat more than the SS. But on the basis of your experience, it sounds like the SS is worth another look.


----------



## Itsdon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *albo75* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm leaning towards the HP material for my Optoma H31 (lots of positive reviews in the screens forum) but I worry about my ceiling mounted unit, and my eye level of about 4 feet below the projector's lens. Any thoughts?



My DT-300 is ceiling mounted (94") and I sit on a normal height couch and the picture is just fine. Sure if you stand up it brightens a bit but nothing as drastic as the Gray Wolf. The viewing cone is much better than the Gray Wolf. Your H31 is brighter than my unit so unless your ceilings are bigger than 96" you should be OK.


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## albo75




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Itsdon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My DT-300 is ceiling mounted (94") and I sit on a normal height couch and the picture is just fine. Sure if you stand up it brightens a bit but nothing as drastic as the Gray Wolf. The viewing cone is much better than the Gray Wolf. Your H31 is brighter than my unit so unless your ceilings are bigger than 96" you should be OK.



Thanks for the information, it's most helpful.


My H31 lens is at 87" from the floor, and I'm about 48" below that. I'm very relieved to hear that the difference in brightness is nowhere near as dramatic as the Greywolf.

That's what I pictured when I read about the type of material the HP is, but if it's just a slight change in picture, that's fine by me.


So I guess I'll probably go for the Da-Lite Model C w/CSR 45x80in. High Power. I'm also looking at the Da-Lite Floating Mounting Brackets for ease of ceiling or wall mounting.

Does anyone have experience with this?


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## vorlen

Man I am still torn my ceilings are 9 ft" and I have found a pj mount that would lower it 20" down that would make it 7"4 high and I would want 1.5 gain. Is this possible?


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## mimason




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vorlen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Man I am still torn my ceilings are 9 ft" and I have found a pj mount that would lower it 20" down that would make it 7"4 high and I would want 1.5 gain. Is this possible?



Your angle from screen to eye and screen to pj needs to be 15% or less. You should be able to get a 24" threaded pipe to lower the screen another several inches but whether or not this combo will work for you depends a lot on the throw distance to reduce the angle. A typical 7'4" mount will not be very good assuming 12' throw and seating.


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## davidcrowe

Have you ever read a post were someone was unhappy with the high power? I don't recall any. I have three screens; a really really large HP, a pretty large matte white, and a small 106" wide pearl brite torus screen. The HP is the hands down favorite. Having compared all three with both the ae900 and the 1292 I would never, ever use the matte white again. The torus and HP are so much better in all lighting conditions that the contest in this house is over. I would also say that the samples are much too small to do the HP justice. You have to see the screen to believe it.


bought mine from jason at avs who I always recommend.


Dave


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## mimason




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *davidcrowe* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you ever read a post were someone was unhappy with the high power?




Sure. Outside the sweet spot.


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## ctviggen

Yes, there is at least one post in the Greywolf thread where someone had both a greywolf and the highpower and liked the greywolf better because of better blacks. When I see comparisons (mainly Tryg's) of the high power to other screens, I like the other screens because the High Power totally obliterates whites. They're blinding. Perhaps in reality they are not, but Tryg's pictures make them appear so.


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## davidcrowe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctviggen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, there is at least one post in the Greywolf thread where someone had both a greywolf and the highpower and liked the greywolf better because of better blacks. When I see comparisons (mainly Tryg's) of the high power to other screens, I like the other screens because the High Power totally obliterates whites. They're blinding. Perhaps in reality they are not, but Tryg's pictures make them appear so.



I have not see tryg's review in a while but the whites off the HP are very bright indeed. My experience is that the brigher whites make the blacks seem blacker even though that are actually less 'black'. In my case it allowed for a very large screen paired with the ae900. My personal taste is for a brighter image so for myself the HP is perfect.


(I have a sony 1292 crt set up in another room projecting onto a pearlbrite torus screen and the blacks from the crt setup are wonderful and very 'black', but I still do most of my watching on the bigger, brighter, totally uncalibrated screen).


Hope this helps.


Dave


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## Hynds

Hey guys,

I recently read through this entire thread. It was very informative. I'm looking for some advice on my future setup. I'm planning on pairing a Sony Pearl with the HP screen with a throw distance of 18ft about 4.5 feet above the ground. Would this throw distance be to far for ideal brightness. My other option is to ceiling mount it closer (say around 13 ft) at around a height of 6.5 feet. Also, any recommendations on the size of the screen?


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## jazjon

What is the difference betwen dalite model B and C? (is C the newest?) I'm looking at getting a 119" Cinema Contour HCCV


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## JHouse

C is beefier. B is lighter. The latter is cheaper. GO HIGH POWER. You won't see any waves in the screen due to its unique properties.


(except on fast pans).


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## Alfdog

This answered ALOT of my questions, wish I could have found it sooner. Thanks for all of your research.


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## Bagel187

I am very interested in the HP for its ambient light performance, high gain, and reduced waves but I am afraid it might not work in my situation. I have no idea how to figure out if I would be within the viewing cone of this screen. My biggest reason for going HP over Matte white would be the ambient light performance.


I will be using a flush ceiling mount with a Mitsubishi HD1000u on an 8ft ceiling. I am looking to project a 106" image so with the HD1000us large offset (roughly 33% I believe) the top of my image will be roughly 2-3 (I think) lower than my PJ. Will I get any benefits from going HP over a Matte White screen?


If anyone could let me know if this will work in my setup I would really appreciate it. Thanks!


Edit: Figured I should include room specs...

PJ->15ft from Screen

PJ-> 5 ft from Side Wall

Room 15L x 10W

Ceilings 8 foot


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## millerwill

Calculate the angle between a line from the pj lens to the center of the screen, and a line from your eyes to the center of the screen. If it is > 15 to 20 deg, the HP is probably not a good choice.


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## JoeFigueiredo

And if it is, what would be a good choice?


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## Bagel187

My math is pretty garbage. Anyone willing to do the calcs for me at a viewing height of roughly 40" or so?


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## abhay_ddn

Guys, I just got the Sharp XVZ 3000 rated at 1200 lumens/6500:1 contrast.

Now the Dalite High Power screen seems to be what I am looking for but I really

want to know your experience with the blacks, shadows and details in the dar parts

of the picture. I know this is a high gain screen, not really for high contrast but how bad is

it? I mean, are the blacks really bad? I know the whites and colors are excellent going by

the hundreds of postings here to that effect. So what do you say?


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## Sankar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bagel187* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My math is pretty garbage. Anyone willing to do the calcs for me at a viewing height of roughly 40" or so?



I'd posted a spreadsheet here to do just these calcs. Maybe it will help you?


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## Nevr2Big




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sankar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd posted a spreadsheet here to do just these calcs. Maybe it will help you?



Hello Sankar:


I believe you mentioned some many posts ago that your real world experience with the High Power was somewhat different than what its specs led you to believe. I was hoping you could elaborate. Specifically, I am able to mount the proj at an optimal height (6.5 feet just behing center viewing locatio) however, I have a large row of seats (sofa, chairs) which make for a suboptimal viewing angle ( about 24 degrees off center). I know I'm likely out of luck with the HighPower but hoped to hear you experience with this off axis viewing as there seems to be some variance in opinions posted on this topic. Thanks.


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## Imageek2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tiddler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have searched this thread for some even slightly off axis screen shots. If there are any I can't find them. Could someone direct me to the posts that would show off axis screen shot comparisons? They don't have to be extreme just 20 to 30 degrees off axis.



I have some shots in my photo gallery. Click on my screen name on the left then on "View Imageek2's Photo Gallery"


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## lupy

I have a xv-z300U and just got a 72X96 high power. The measurments look funny, but they use a different way of measuring this size, and the result is a 69X92" viewing area. The advantage of this is that you can move the image up and down a little to get the best viewing without paying extra for a longer drop on a 16X9 screen. Once I get everyting layed out, I will probably add a little thin fabric at the top for final masking if needed.


Another big advantage of this screen is that there seem to be a lot of companies selling this model at a deep discount, they must buy them in bulk and stock them at their store. Mine was shipped from the store not da-lite. Do a froogle search on 83223 screen. Be sure to check stock, as a lot of people are out of it. If you find one, buy it quick, I have seen stock and price change in 15 min or less.



As far as black levels, it's all about how dark your room is. This projector does very well with blacks, I love watching the space combat in star wars III.


The thing to remeber about this screen and black levels. For any screen, your blacks can only be as dark as the room. with a white screen, any light in the room will show up on the screen. With a high power screen, light shining directly at the screen behind you will blow out the picture. But not any more so than with a white screen. Light from the side is much less a problem with a high power, because it tends to reflect back at the source, not at your eyes. The closer you can get the projector to being right next to you, the stronger this effect will be and the less other lights will be noticed.



These projectors come set up with some wierd settings, go to econo bulb, natural, up the contrast and wow, the colors are great, the blacks are great. With stock settings, esp dynamic with bright bulb, the colors are over driven, making everything too bright, and the blacks don't really work.


Depending on how you set up the room, you will have to fiddle to get the most gain. I was planning on celing mounting, then I dropped the hight for better gain, but now the pic is a little keystoned. Then I settled on mounting it a little behind us, just above our heads. Raise the image as high as possible. still a little keystoned, but not too bad. And the gain is way up. Of course I can adjust the keystone, but it adds to the processor load, and the pic suffers a little. In all mounting positions, gain is higher than it would have been with a std white screen. Unless of course you sit way off to the side, beyond the edge of the screen.


Many High end pros frown on high power screens, usually it comes down to the fact that brightness levels change depending on where you sit, and so no one setting will work for all seats. In a dedicated room with fully adjstable light, where $$ is no object, and I want to impress everyone with my theater, the High power would probably not be the best choice. In the real world, with limited $$ and a multi use room. The High power can make your $1-2k DLP perform like a 3-5k DLP. If the ocasional visitor in the far side seat dosn't get the abs. best pic, then sc*ew them







they didn't spend the $$ or the time. I did.










Best of luck!

Ken


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## Lylepdx

Has anyone cleaned their HP screen and if so any tips. Mine's been up for 3 1/2 years and I think could use a "damn good cleaning"!


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## pottscb

This screen is retro reflective, correct?


Are there any high gain screens that are not?


Thx.


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## mimason




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pottscb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This screen is retro reflective, correct?
> 
> 
> Are there any high gain screens that are not?
> 
> 
> Thx.



Silverstar is angular reflective and has nearly the same gain as the HP's sweetspot.


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## ed_robyn

RATS. I can't get the video to work from the original post. Anybody else have this problem?


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