# SBuger's New Dedicated Home Theater Room



## SBuger

_*** Updated last 12/7/2022: *Added a Zidoo Z9X to the system to play movies on the Network HERE

*Updated 12/11/2021: *Added an HDFury Vertex2 to my setup to get Dolby Vision and Dynamic Tone Mapping on my projector HERE , plus have the VNFs added back into the mix as well (with updated FR) HERE_



Spoiler: Not all, but a few other updates along the way after adding Atmos



_*Updated 2/23/2021: *Added VNF subs back into the mix behind the MLP seat in addition to the Stacked Tube Cone Up HoverEZe (formally referred to as HoverBoss), Mega Bossback and other TR gear, plus updated FR as well HERE 

*Updated 1/19/2021: * Added a few FF subs back into the mix up front behind the AT screen with updated FR etc __HERE_

_*Updated 1/17/2021: * Added a few still screen shots from the new UHD Trilogy The Hobbit __HERE_

_*Updated 12/26/2020:* Changed out my MegaHoverBoss Huge multi-seat platform to more efficient single seat Cone Up Lightweight HoverBoss platforms for better TR. Lots of pics etc __HERE_

_*Updated 7/21/2020:* Added some VibSensor measurements and posted a few TR vids as well. Post can be found HERE

*Updated 5/8/2020:* Added more BK LFE's for Canti-Lever, as well as for MegaBossBacks for the outer seats. Post can be found HERE

*Updated 3/11/2020:* Added a lot more TR gear with a HoverBOSS and BossBACK. Also added a lot more updates a few posts up from this one as well. Main latest post can be found HERE

*Updated 7/29/2019:* Added a 4K HDR projector and other fun HT goodies, Xbox One X and Apple TV 4K. Lots of Pics and impressions of it all HERE

*Updated 6/12 & 26/2019:* Part 2 & 3 to last update - added updated FR and final thoughts with BOSS sub riser in the system HERE and HERE

*Updated 6/4/2019:* Part 1 - Added a new tactile response riser to my system. LOTS of pics with different versions that I tried...you can find that post HERE

*Updated 3/5/2019:* Added two more 18" DIY sealed subs, a 3rd seat, and two more Crowson MA's. LOTS of pics ...you can find that post HERE_



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*WOOHOO!!!! * ..I finally got a dedicated room for my Home Theater!! I've always wanted one for as long as I can remember. I previously had my HT setup in the Living Room. I put a lot of work into that setup and had it about as good as I could get it for a living room. My old thread for that setup can be found HERE _(sorry all the images on that page are not showing and haven't had a chance to fix it yet)_

So here it is:

_Room Size:_
1400 cuft (13'x13'x8') sealed room on a suspended floor

_Equipment:_
*AVR/Players*
Denon AVR-X6300H
Oppo UDP-203
Xbox One X
Apple TV 4K
HDFury Vertex2
Zidoo Z9X

*Video*
Epson 5040UB 4K Projector
SeymourAV 16:9 120" Retractable AT Screen

*Speakers*
KEF Q Series in a 7.1.4 Dolby Atmos configuration
- Q900's (Front - Left, Center, and Right)
- Q100's (Surrounds & Heights)

*Subs/TT's *
DIY Stereo Integrity DS4-18's (x4) & DIY Dayton UM22-18's (x2)
Buttkicker LFE (x7)
Crowson Shadow 8 Motion Actuators (x6) - 2 per seat
Cone Up HoverEZe with 6x 12" JBL woofers directly underneath the seating
MegaBossBack on each seatback (1x 12" JBL + BK LFE)

*Amps/External PEQ*
Inuke6000DSP (x4)
Buttkicker BKA1000-N Power Amp (x4)
MiniDSP 10x10HD
MiniDSP 2x4HD

*Seating*
Pembroke HT Design (x3)

*Treatments*
GIK corner bass traps in the rear corners floor to ceiling. Front wall covered with 2" Roxul Rockboard 80 and the first reflections on the side walls for the front L,C, and R speakers are done with 1" OC703. Also all walls and ceiling covered with SY Triple Black Velvet + a black shag rug over the light colored carpet (all for video PQ and distraction free viewing, not for sound treatment). To help liven the room back up a little from all the velvet, GIK Alpha 6A's with 2a scatter plates on the back wall as well as 8 GIK Gridfusors - 6 on the ceiling and 2 on rear cack walls.

*Overview **(Pics and info don't include the 3rd seat addition and HoverEZe's that were added to the system.)*
With my previous setup in the living room, I became a HUGE fan of VNF (Very Near Field) subs + Tactile Transducers and Crowsons MA's. So I pretty much set it up the same way in this new room with a sealed 18" VNF behind each of the two seats and the other 2 sealed 18's Far Field (if you can call them that in this small room), + the 2 BK LFE's and 2 Crowsons MA's per seat as well. No way was I giving these up!!!! I'm still amazed at what subs with drivers facing into the back of your seat as close as you can get them will do for Slam/Impact and Tactile Response when it comes to the bass in movie soundtracks.

Its a pretty small room at around 1400 cuft, but is working out great. I love it and is so nice to finally have my setup in a dedicated room. I pretty much blacked out the entire theater for the best image quality possible with no light reflections. I got the idea from the "Theater Blackout" thread. I'm in awe of what blacking out the room did for the Picture Quality. Contrast, Black Levels, Shadow Detail, and Brightness went way up and helped tremendously compared to what I was used too. Also, it's really cool to have the image look like it's floating in black space. When the movie is going, I pretty much see nothing but Image, which is one of the things I was after.

I set pretty close to a 16:9 120" AT screen, so it feels huge and very immersive. Eyes to screen are about 7' exactly in recline mode. Yes it's breaking the "Rules", but feels just about right to me on the majority of content ....not overwhelming, just IMMERSIVE. _ Note: Actually, I'm now at 6.5' eyes to screen these days for a little more immersion, but was 7' in the photos below._

*The Room*
So first up, the room itself. It's small and not the fanciest room ever, but it works. It's quite dark with all the surfaces (ceiling, walls) covered in Black Velvet and the floor covered with a Black Shag Rug, which is fantastic for when the movie is going (most important to me and what I was after), but still pretty dark at other times even with the lights on. It's pretty much a 'Get Down to Business' kind of room and optimized for this. So it makes it a little tougher to see what's going on with everything, but I tried to photograph it the best I could to hopefully give a good idea.









Some fire power behind the seats ..YEAH!!









A shot from the closet where the projector, Amps, and PC are at









Not reclined ..which I never watch movies this way but thought I'd better get at least one photo like this









Here is a shot of the back part of the room with all the surrounds, top front and top rear heights (for 7.1.4 Atmos) with room treatments, plus my little area in the back where I keep my PC, amps, and projector at (which worked out perfectly to give me more throw distance that was needed with my current projector).









*Lighting*
I put 3 lights up front that can light the screen and 2 lights above the two seats (1 above each), but had to make Black Velvet blinders to hang in front of front 3 lights so that I can't see the reflections in them during the movie. Having everything else blacked out, this was quite distracting, but this TOTALLY solved the problem.









*Blackout*
So I had to take the door of to get the black shag rug in for the final touches in the blackout process, so I took a few pics when I did that that will give another perspective. Also shows how shaggy the black shag rug is. It makes the room feel pretty cozy and really helps finish off the blackout process with everything else covered in SY Triple Black Velvet. It also helped quite a bit with PQ and total immersion from whats on the screen only. I guess I just didn't realize how much a light colored floor can light things up and take away from the visual impact, even with everything else covered in black already.

L,C,R Speakers are behind the drop down AT screen ...









Cozy Black 'Shag' Rug ...and surprisingly, it's just almost as dark as the Triple Black SY Velvet!









*FR (Frequency Response)*
So in a room this small, I was able to get pretty flat down to 5 Hz, which was cool. A square room made it kind of tough, but with three locations and multiple subs I was able to get a pretty flat response with speakers crossed at 90 Hz









With the MultEQ Audessey Editors App and roll off #2 my FR is pretty flat across the board with that 2k dip - MidRangeComp that Audy puts in (which can be enabled or disabled for any of the speakers with the Editors App). Also I'm running a very slight rising house curve. RED is All Subs Only (because it's so easy to get this reading now since I've switched to HDMI for REW on the mac) then varying sub boosts combined with Left, Center, and Right front channels. I tend to run my subs like the ones with about 12-15db boost above the speakers (with no DEQ) on the majority of movie material.










*TR (Tactile Response)*
Now for the TR - I'm a tactile junkie (I should probably be in some sort of rehab for it lol). I like a lot of it. Besides the VNF subs right behind the seats with the drivers firing into them, I like Transducers and Crowson MAs as well. I love what they can do all combined together - it creates a pretty darn power synergy, and continues on with the 'Intense' thing for movies that I love and was after. I run 2 Buttkicker LFE's and 2 Crowson Shadow 8 MA's per seat, a sealed 18" behind each seat, + 2 more sealed 18's Far Field (if you can call them that in this small room), plus I'm on a suspended floor. Probably overkill, but that kind of seems to happen around this place. I really like both the Crowsons and the BK's, but for different reasons. So I just run them both! With 2 BK's bolted directly to the frame under the seat, it can give me the feeling of being on a trampoline when cranked up, which I LOVE!! I run and love the Croswon MA's as well. The BK LFE's and Crowson MA's mix very well together IMO, which I think is awesome and can get what each have to offer (a best of both worlds kind of thing).

Here's a few pics of the seats, BK LFE's, Crowson MA's and VNF subs setup




































And a shot from the front underneath the seat









*A few older pics*
So here are a few pics that I took along the way getting the room ready. Since my entire room is pretty much blacked out now with the Black Velvet, it's kind of hard to see what's what going on in the pics sometimes. These show the speakers and locations etc a little better with the walls completely bare before I did any treatments or black velvet. This setup was really fun with only one recliner with the subs surrounding me for a little while. I hit the image limit per post so you can see the images if your interested in this post HERE _(sorry all the images on that page are not showing and haven't had a chance to fix it yet)_


*More Pics and Other Stuff*
A little entry way decor and some color. All photo's were taken with my iPhone7

Got Wonder Woman (yup I'm a Gal Gadot fan as you'll probably see) and the Cap standing guard


















White Screen shot from just inside the closet (where the amps, projector, and PC are at) behind my two seats










A few Movie Screen Shot Stills ...

*MARVEL* ..Since I seem to love pretty much all the Marvel movies









*MARVEL* ..Another ..back corner shot, plus I just thought the image and coloring looked cool









*HULK!!!*









*LUCY!!* - Love this movie, has fantastic visuals, bass, and it has Scarlet Johansson! I was looking for a still shot capture that was captivating ..I was thrilled when I came across this! This one feels pretty darn cool sitting right in front of it on the big screen and fills up a huge portion of my vision.









*WONDER WOMAN* - this is one of my favorite moments in the movie and really caught me be surprise the first time I watched it. Since I was'nt ready for it, the bass impact and what happened was so cool!

















Yep, more Wonder Woman (she's just so cool, and uh, well ya know ... )









*TRON: LEGACY* - Sitting as close as I do to the 16:9 120" screen (7' eyes to screen when reclined), Tron is a TRIP, especially when it shifts to IMAX full screen aspect! This movie brings the bass too, and is one of my favorites. It really does feel like I'm right there in the light cycle battle. A lot of other movies make me feel like I'm right there as well, but Tron in particular somehow manages to push it to the next level and make me feel even more there, like right there inside the movie experiencing it or something. It's kind of freaky sometimes, but I love it, and is tough to describe they way it makes me feel. It's like nothing I've experienced in Home Theater quite like this before. Besides just being close to a real big screen and no other distractions because of all the velvet blackouts, I really do think its partially the way the movie is filmed (graphics style and editing, etc) with all the NEON colored lights, the way they flow fluidly on the screen a lot of times, along with the numerous silky smooth pans. It all just seems to just add up to that feeling of being right there in it. I think Tron is probably my favorite movie for making me feel this way. And it feels this way in a large majority of the movie, not just the light cycle scenes. The last part of the movie where they are doing a lot of flying is pretty crazy feeling.









*TRANSFORMERS:TLK* - I always love the visuals and all the shiny metal in Transformers









*GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY II ((3D))* Yup, I'm a big 3D fan as well! This bubble scene is one of my favorites for 3D. It switches to 1:85:1 full screen aspect a lot of the time which works good on my screen (since it's 16:9). The bubbles feel like they are right out in front of me and I could reach out and touch them, or even might float into me! If you look in the bottom right image, it looks pretty crazy. The worse it looks when your 3D glasses are off like that, the better the 3D usually is









*Listening Habits and what I tried to achieve with this room and setup*
I'm really into and LOVE movies, so I mainly use my system for this only. I've tried my best to optimize this room and setup for such. I watch a lot of movies and also am an avid movie Demo'er (I'm addicted to it, and is a rush for me). A lot of times it feels Euphoric, kind of like a drug I guess you could say. So besides just watching the movies, I like to demo a little bit everyday (if I can fit it in) to get my Home Theater movie and bass "FIX"  These are usually just short sessions and is one of my favorite things to do, and probably always will be. I have all my Blu Ray movies ripped to MKV lossless files (except for the 3D movies) and put on an external drive. I just connect it to my Oppo player, and it works so fast and easy to get to whatever movie and/or section I want when it's demo time. Not the fanciest thing, but works great.

I love intensity and realism when it comes to the Home Theater experience. The more I can feel like I'm actually in the movie experiencing everything, the more I love it. This means video immersion, bass and tactile energy, surround sound, and total envelopment as a whole with no distractions. The blacking out of the room, plus the FarField, Very NearField subs, Crowson MAs and Buttkicker LFEs, 'Big Screen' with seating pretty close for great video immersion, all really come together to give me what I was after. Of course it took quite a bit of fine tuning and experimenting along the way to get it to feel natural, yet still very intense and realistic as well (to me anyway), but was worth the time and effort to get it there.

Also one of the things I love most about the way I have it setup with the VNF (Very Near Field) subs + the small army of BK LFE's and Crowson MA's, is that I'm able to get the kind of Slam/Impact and Tactile intensity from the bass that I crave (pretty extreme intensity sometimes, which I love), even at fairly moderate to low listening levels. At night I can only get away with listening at about -25mv or so (but bass and tactile can still feel pretty intense because of the VNFs, MAs, and BK LFEs, which is way cool and keeps it fun and exciting). During the day I listen louder, but still not at extreme SPL levels. I rarely get over -15 to -10 Master Volume (which can still seem pretty darn loud in this small room), although I do run my subs quite hot most of the time (usually anywhere from 10db to 20db hot, depending on the movie). I can adjust this fast and easy on the fly whenever I feel the need. I feel that the way the bass levels are mixed in some of these movies, sub trim levels just need a little (or a lot occasionally) adjustment sometimes to get the absolute most balanced, clean and powerful sound and feel out of the track. I have no problems doing this, as I'm not really a set a forget it kind of guy anyway (I'm kind of a tweaker by nature I think lol). I'm cool with that, although I know most folks 'are' the set and forget kind. I'm a perfectionist sometimes (or most of the time) when it comes to this stuff (its probably a curse, but I deal with it) and just feel the need to adjust on the fly when need be (quick and easy).* EDIT:*_ BassEQ these days (about 2 years after I wrote that,) pretty much eliminates the need for such adjustments and running bass as hot, as it fully restores the bass that was filtered out of most movies, back to full band and normal levels. _ _BEQ ROCKS, especially if you are a ULF Bass and TR lover!!!!!!_

But anyway, what I was trying to get at was that I can achieve the level of bass intensity (slam/impact and Tactile Response) that I crave without having to kill my ears with extreme SPL levels in the process. It keeps movie watching and demoing fun without hurting my ears and hopefully not pissing too many of my neighbors off, and still be able to get what I desire.

*Final Thoughts*
The room is really getting there now. It was quite a bit of work and I still have a few things to add (like a few more acoustical treatments and a 4K projector eventually, maybe even a 3rd seat, although a 3rd will be tight in this small room but will put 1 seat back to dead center in the sweet spot for me, instead of having to share dead center and splitting the difference with two seats). It was a LOT of fun getting the room ready and things set up. I'm loving it so far and is everything I had hoped a dedicated room could be. Hopefully I'll continue to enjoy it for many years to come!


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## Frohlich

Great job. Looks like a one man palace. Not sure you have any reason to ever leave that room!!!!!


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## coolrda

I concur, great job. Its so good to see you go dedicated and will be watching intently at this room's progress. Performance is off the chart.


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## SBuger

Frohlich said:


> Great job. Looks like a one man palace. Not sure you have any reason to ever leave that room!!!!!


Thanks Frohlick! At the moment yes, a one man show for sure LOL. I don't know how long I can get away with that though with only the one chair, the wife and daughter are gonna want a place to sit for some movie time pretty soon I'm sure. Good excuse to get some HT chairs like I've always wanted though I guess


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## SBuger

coolrda said:


> I concur, great job. Its so good to see you go dedicated and will be watching intently as this room's progress. Performance is off the chart.


Thanks Dave! Ok I've got my thread going, you need to get yours started as well like we were talking about, cause your room and setup is freakin awesome and was a big inspiration for mine!!


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## Bill Shenefelt

*mating differing subwoofers*

Did you have any trouble mating the ported and sealed subs attributable to phase shifts or rolloff frequencies of the different units. I have a pair of SVS 16 sealed enclosure ultras. They seem pretty good into the low teens but do not have the chest slap punch that can be present in many movies. . I also have an 18 inch JBL subwoofer in a home built 8 cubic ft enclosure tuned to about 26 cps as was done in the JBL 460 sub containing the same driver and also the same volume. I wanted to get the JBL to help out in the punch realm (40 to 90 cps ?) not the super low effects range. Any suggestions? I do have the JBL on a Crown amp with some parametric eq capabilities bridged to put out 1kw. The JBL is not a super long excursion sub 20 cps unit but does have an efficiency of 95 dB/watt at one meter). It has a max excursion of one inch. The SVS subs are at the movie screen end of the room and the big JBL is at the rear of the room about 26 feet away. I sit about 2/3 back in the room or about 14 ft from the screen(svs subs) and less than 8 ft from the JBL sub. .


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## unretarded

YES YES YES!

Nothing like a small dedicated room !


Due to the outstanding bass a small room offers, I find music way more enjoyable in a room of that nature for serious eyes closed listening.


Great job on blacking out the room.......blacking it out makes all the difference I think.......you are way ahead of me as I did not do the entire room yet, since I will be building out a new dedicated room soon, but it will still be pretty small approx. 40 square foot bigger than now which is 12x12.....new will be approx. 10x18 with a AT screen up front, so more like 10x16 usable.


Having a dedicated room allows you to do things you never would in a dual use living room.....or that would never get approved anyway....


A huge area is cool, but I like the feel of a smaller space.....

I am not sure your plans, but I went with carls progrey screen as it just staples to the wall so it gives you maximum viewing distance and size........I will be getting rid of mine in favor for a AT spandex screen as I want a AT screen. Not sure your PL or throw distance but you might want to consider a huge spandex screen for the biggest picture possible and AT qualities........or leave alone how you have it if happy..... I have mine at the max picture size it will do, almost 140 diagonal at approx. 9 foot eye to screen distance.......I wanted 150, but that would require cutting a peep hole into the closet to get the additional PJ distance. If I was not planning on a new room, I would do that for sure, especially for 3d, but for regular as well.......


Great job !


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## unretarded

So whats your final thoughts on concrete VS suspended floor ?


My take is with enough firepower and TT`s, it is a mute point........it is going to take a HUGE amount of subs and structural floor movement to equal a couple VNF`s and some good TT`s........I do not think you could get that kind of action thru the floor without structural damages.....LOL

I know my cheap clark with a single ht 18 behind the seat on a concrete floor is really moving things. I am just not sure it is even possible to get that much action on a suspended floor with subs 6 to 12 foot away.


I have never felt big/lots of subs on a suspended floor ?


The reason I am so intent on the difference is that in my new room, I could do a suspended floor over the concrete....I guess a decoupled floor would be the better term, but I am not even sure I would notice the difference due to running a TT and a VNF . The second row on the riser will benefit I am sure as it will not have VNF`s or TT`s..........


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## unretarded

SBuger said:


> Thanks Frohlick! At the moment yes, a one man show for sure LOL. I don't know how long I can get away with that though with only the one chair, the wife and daughter are gonna want a place to sit for some movie time pretty soon I'm sure. Good excuse to get some HT chairs like I've always wanted though I guess



Having had 2 sets of dedicated recliners now, I would drive up to 2 hours away to sit in my next set first and bring a sack lunch, because 10 minutes in them has no meaning on how my back feels after 2 to 6 hours on them.



I am in them now as I have my computer ran thru the PJ, I use it for everything, my living room tv has been off for over 8 months now as I borrowed the surge protector everything was wired to in the front room ....LOL


Upside is the living room stays nice and clean and organized as it gets no use.........

Downside is these HT recliners........I am not the sure the ones I have are meant for sitting in all the time hours on end.


So I will be camping out in the ones I plan to buy next time to make sure they cut it.......I am eying the ones like Steve Callas got for his theater.......oversized singles, my new ones are standard width and are not fun for long and not conductive for having a lady sit with you.......the last ones were about 8 inches wider and while not oversized or a double recliner they were big enough to allow a lady to snuggle with you or to just sprawl out and relax.

Everyones preferences are different, I just thought I would mention my observations of dedicated HT seats......

One set is 25 between the armrests and while fine for a solo 90 minute movie......everything else, not so good. The others are 27 inches between the arm rests and that 2 inches is a amazing difference....bottom line is I would do a ton of chair setting, even if it meant making a long trip to do so....


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## SBuger

Bill Shenefelt said:


> Did you have any trouble mating the ported and sealed subs attributable to phase shifts or rolloff frequencies of the different units. I have a pair of SVS 16 sealed enclosure ultras. They seem pretty good into the low teens but do not have the chest slap punch that can be present in many movies. . I also have an 18 inch JBL subwoofer in a home built 8 cubic ft enclosure tuned to about 26 cps as was done in the JBL 460 sub containing the same driver and also the same volume. I wanted to get the JBL to help out in the punch realm (40 to 90 cps ?) not the super low effects range. Any suggestions? I do have the JBL on a Crown amp with some parametric eq capabilities bridged to put out 1kw. The JBL is not a super long excursion sub 20 cps unit but does have an efficiency of 95 dB/watt at one meter). It has a max excursion of one inch. The SVS subs are at the movie screen end of the room and the big JBL is at the rear of the room about 26 feet away. I sit about 2/3 back in the room or about 14 ft from the screen(svs subs) and less than 8 ft from the JBL sub. .


I'm actually running my 'Johnny' (ported) sub up front farfield in sealed mode at the moment to go with my other sealed 18's NF. I just stuffed the ports and set then limiter on the Inuke amp to avoid over excursion on the driver since the box is a little bigger. Seems to work great doing this. But I have messed around a little bit with running it in its normal ported mode as well. It does need some work to get the phase differences of the two to line up. I got them lined up as well as I could by using an HPF with the different BW oct filters with in the miniDSP and worked pretty well. Although that said, whether in sealed or ported mode, my square room made it tough to get the Farfeild and Nearfield subs working together because of room modes and cancellation issues. That can be trying on its own sometimes, not to mention trying to get the phase differences of sealed and ported subs to line up. I got it to work out ok, even when I run it ported, but wasn't the easiest in this square room, along with where my seating location has to be. 

About your Mid Bass, it can be tough to get and hard to figure out sometimes. What I've found, if at all possible, try not to have any dips in your FR in that very important 50-80hz region. I'm sure that's obvious and something you probably already know, but thought I would mention it anyway. It can be bad news for feeling the Mid Bass in the chest if you have a null or big dip somewhere in that region. If your FR is pretty good in this region though and is still lacking, my suggestion would be to try to get one of your subs (or an MBM) as close to you as you can, preferably right behind your seat with the driver facing into you if possible. You'll probably have the best chance at feeling the mid bass with it positions like this if you can make it fit. And again, try to get rid of any dips/nulls in that all important MB region if you can. 

If you do want to try a sub behind your seat to help mid bass punch but don't have much room for it, you may try a Behringer 1200d like a lot of folks are using. I use one as well. Its pretty small and is very effective. If your interested, you can find some info on it and quite a few folks that integrated one or more of them in the thread here: 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2434250-nearfield-ported-mbm-increased-mid-bass-tactile-response.html

Or maybe something from the diysoundgroup site. Those would probably work fantastic as well, or even better.


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## SBuger

unretarded said:


> YES YES YES!
> 
> Nothing like a small dedicated room !
> 
> 
> Due to the outstanding bass a small room offers, I find music way more enjoyable in a room of that nature for serious eyes closed listening.
> 
> 
> Great job on blacking out the room.......blacking it out makes all the difference I think.......you are way ahead of me as I did not do the entire room yet, since I will be building out a new dedicated room soon, but it will still be pretty small approx. 40 square foot bigger than now which is 12x12.....new will be approx. 10x18 with a AT screen up front, so more like 10x16 usable.
> 
> 
> Having a dedicated room allows you to do things you never would in a dual use living room.....or that would never get approved anyway....
> 
> 
> A huge area is cool, but I like the feel of a smaller space.....
> 
> I am not sure your plans, but I went with carls progrey screen as it just staples to the wall so it gives you maximum viewing distance and size........I will be getting rid of mine in favor for a AT spandex screen as I want a AT screen. Not sure your PL or throw distance but you might want to consider a huge spandex screen for the biggest picture possible and AT qualities........or leave alone how you have it if happy..... I have mine at the max picture size it will do, almost 140 diagonal at approx. 9 foot eye to screen distance.......I wanted 150, but that would require cutting a peep hole into the closet to get the additional PJ distance. If I was not planning on a new room, I would do that for sure, especially for 3d, but for regular as well.......
> 
> 
> Great job !


Thanks unretarted!

Yeah might as well wait until you get your new room to totally black it all out (I'm sure it'll be great!) You mentioning to me about using black velvet for all walls, ceiling and floor in the VS thread a while back was the last little push I needed to do my room this way  I had already been thinking about doing that instead of the flat black paint for part of it. And yes, I really do think it makes all the difference. In fact, I just cant hardly get over what it has done for the PQ, along with no distractions. I can only imagine what one of the top end 4K projectors would look like in a totally blacked out room. Now that I've experienced it, I don't think I could ever go back. Kind of like having the VNF subs, once experienced, it ruins you and ya cant go back . 

LOL, yep ...this would have never went over in the living room with black velvet on the ceiling and everywhere. It had to be in dedicated room and one more reason for me making the transition to this room. 

Cool, I think you'll like an AT screen. It's really nice having your speakers behind the screen for various reasons. Thanks for the idea on the spandex screen. It would have been a great option if I couldn't have put my projector in the closet to get more throw distance. I think the min throw for a 120" screen on the Epson 5030 that I have is like 12.7' or something. So the closet worked out just right if I wanted to use my AT screen with speakers behind it. I'm pretty limited on where my seating has to go, because not only of the small room with the screen being out away form the wall 2-3' to allow for the sub and speakers, but because of my VNF subs that I have to have behind my chair as well. That means the seat(s) have to be out from the back wall about 2' or so as well. 

Sounds just about right with your 140" (or even 150") diagonal with your eyes to screen at 9'. I'm sure it feels/seems quite large and immersive! That is something that I wanted as well. I was 9.5' away from my 120" screen in my last setup in the living room, but wanted to be closer so it would be bigger, but didn't want the couch moved out into the living room any more than it was. So up in this new room, I messed with it quite a bit to get that exact feel/size that I wanted. I started at about 8', then just kept inching my seat forward until I got what I was after. I ended up with eyes to screen right about at 7' even. Its pretty intense and feels just about right for my tastes. Very immersive and big feeling in scope. In 16:9, it feel absolutely HUGE. Any closer than I am now, and it's just to much and I start wanting to scoot back some. So for now, I'm really, really happy with the size for as close as my seat is to the screen. Not that a 140-150" screen wouldn't be freaking awesome, but I'd most definitely have to move my seat back some (or a lot). 

One thing I haven't tried yet in this new setup, is 3D, but I'm thinking it should be pretty killer with the screen feeling as big as it does in 2D. I love 3D, and the closer and the bigger the image you can get, the better the 3D is IMO (to a certain point at least).


----------



## SBuger

unretarded said:


> So whats your final thoughts on concrete VS suspended floor ?
> 
> 
> * My take is with enough firepower and TT`s, it is a mute point........it is going to take a HUGE amount of subs and structural floor movement to equal a couple VNF`s and some good TT`s........I do not think you could get that kind of action thru the floor without structural damages.....LOL
> *
> I know my cheap clark with a single ht 18 behind the seat on a concrete floor is really moving things. I am just not sure it is even possible to get that much action on a suspended floor with subs 6 to 12 foot away.
> 
> 
> I have never felt big/lots of subs on a suspended floor ?
> 
> 
> The reason I am so intent on the difference is that in my new room, I could do a suspended floor over the concrete....I guess a decoupled floor would be the better term, but I am not even sure I would notice the difference due to running a TT and a VNF . The second row on the riser will benefit I am sure as it will not have VNF`s or TT`s..........


I think you hit the nail on the head with that statement right there. With a VNF right behind your seat + TT's, I think you'd get structural damages to get the same kind of action form a suspended floor to keep up with what former provides. With the VNF's + TT's, I honestly don't think I was missing anything when I was on concrete compared to now being on a suspended floor. Being reclined for movies, it does feel just a tiny bit different occasionally (a little more depth maybe), but very, very, very similar. Sometimes a bit better, and sometimes maybe not quite as good, for whatever reason on certain clips. But that could be do to other things as well, like different seating (as we've discussed before) or the way its all integrated to work together having to deal with different variables (room primary) to get the desired FR, TR, PR etc that your after. 

But with that being said about them feeling very similar, I will say that I have to run my TT/MA's about 7db's higher to get close to the same intensity and feel. That could actually be the suspended floor working against the TTs/MA's (although I don't think so, but ya never know) or may be the different seating. I think mainly its my seating. My couch (when I had my setup downstairs) had a LOT of flex, and I think that really worked well with the BK's. They seem to work great with the single recliner as well, but maybe not as efficiently. That, or maybe my TA (Time Alignment) is off just a bit between the two. Although that's probably not it because with TT/MA's only, I still have to turn them up more to get close to the same feel as I did on my couch with a bunch of flex in it. It feels great though, so I really haven't wanted to dive into a bunch of testing to figure it out, which is really unlike me (I usually love that stuff). I think I'm just mainly wanting to enjoy the new room, get back to my daily demoing and get caught up on some movies that I haven't seen yet  Today I did quite a lot of demoing and was so much fun. Things sounded and felt just about perfect to me. Bass (TR, Impact, envelopment etc) and overall sound and video were just about right for my preferences. I demoed at -10mv with my normal 9-15db hot subs depending on the movie. Kind of makes me not want to mess with or test anything with the VS for TA etc. But I probably should at some point to see if I can get a little more efficiency at lower gain levels out of the TT's and MA's. After a little bit of 'The Incredible Hulk" and then bumping up the MV to around -5mv on Mad Max Fury Road, my Crowson MA's got Waaaaaaaay to hot and went into protect mode and shut down. Although I know these two movies are so hard on MA's (or TT or Subs), it makes me wish Randy Crowson would make some an Ultra Hardcore beefed up Edition of the MA's that could withstand all the abuse you could throw at them without having to worry about them heating up to much and shutting down. Yeah I know most folks don't run them like that, but I guess I'm not most folks when I'm in the mood for all they can give LOL. 

So anyway, I also wanted to say (before I started going off on a tangent for today's demoing session ), with that said about a suspended floor up above, if one did not use VNF's or TT or both, then I think it could really help a lot, especially if ones seating didn't recline and feet were on the floor. But if reclined and you use VNFs and TT's, they are just so darn hard to compete with. In fact IMO, suspended floor cant even come close, but is still cool. 

So about you building some type of suspended floor over the top of your concrete, I don't know if it would even be worth it for you to mess with putting that kind of floor in compared to just concrete. You may ask @coolrda's opinion on it as well, since he put down wood flooring over his concrete. As you know, he uses VNF and Crowsons MAs as well. Last I heard, he did like it more compared to just concrete. So it may be worth it for you to do.


----------



## SBuger

unretarded said:


> Having had 2 sets of dedicated recliners now, I would drive up to 2 hours away to sit in my next set first and bring a sack lunch, because 10 minutes in them has no meaning on how my back feels after 2 to 6 hours on them.
> 
> 
> 
> I am in them now as I have my computer ran thru the PJ, I use it for everything, my living room tv has been off for over 8 months now as I borrowed the surge protector everything was wired to in the front room ....LOL
> 
> 
> Upside is the living room stays nice and clean and organized as it gets no use.........
> 
> Downside is these HT recliners........I am not the sure the ones I have are meant for sitting in all the time hours on end.
> 
> 
> So I will be camping out in the ones I plan to buy next time to make sure they cut it.......I am eying the ones like Steve Callas got for his theater.......oversized singles, my new ones are standard width and are not fun for long and not conductive for having a lady sit with you.......the last ones were about 8 inches wider and while not oversized or a double recliner they were big enough to allow a lady to snuggle with you or to just sprawl out and relax.
> 
> Everyones preferences are different, I just thought I would mention my observations of dedicated HT seats......
> 
> One set is 25 between the armrests and while fine for a solo 90 minute movie......everything else, not so good. The others are 27 inches between the arm rests and that 2 inches is a amazing difference....bottom line is I would do a ton of chair setting, even if it meant making a long trip to do so....


Thanks for sharing your experience with the chairs.

I hear ya, if I could drive 2 hours or even a little more around here to check out some chairs just to see and get a feel for them I would, but nothing like that around here. I could definitely see where a bigger chair might be good for you if you like having your girl close or in the same seat with you for movie time or even just to sprawl out a little more and relax like your were saying. So a bigger chair or maybe enve a love seat style HT chair. 

I'm struggling a little bit on pulling the trigger on some seats, but will need to do it pretty soon probably. I really do want and need 3 seats in this room. Also, as we've discussed before, they can make quite a difference in performance and the way the TR feels, as well as size and comfort like your talking about now as well. 

I think the biggest thing I'm struggling with is that I'm just not sure how I'll be able to make my BK LFE's work with most HT seating. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be able to give them up very easily if I cant get them mounted into or right behind the back of the frame somehow and still feel good. I really do like them damn BK LFE's. I wish I didn't, but I do LOL. 

I think I'll probably end up with a row of 3 'Pembrokes' like coolrda or the Seatcraft Sonomas and just take my chances ordering them online. Some of the testing he has done on his (objectively and subjectively) show they give some great TR with the MA's (at least with them in a certain location), as well as being comfortable for long periods of time (like 6 hours or more at a time IIRC).

Speaking of which, I've been meaning to ask you @coolrda, if I end up with 3 of the 'Pembrokes' (with arm rests for each seat), with having to position them like you showed in the Crowson thread a while back (not under the arms rests, but more inward on the frame), do you think I would need 2 per seat (six total)? I was originally planning on only 4 all together - one on each outer leg under the armrests (on the back of chair) for the two outside seats, and then the middle seat sharing the other two with the outside seats, making each chair have two on each back corner basically (if that makes sense). Or I guess I could put two under the middle MLP chair, and only one under each outside chair.


----------



## Nalleh

Great room, man. I’ve been meaning to comment on your setup earlier, and now that you finally have a proper thread, i can go ahead 

This room has it all, blacked out, PJ & screen, farfield and nearfield subs, Crowsons AND Buttkickers and proper setup. This has to be close to nirvana on all the senses 

Very nice job, and enjoy watching movies


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## coolrda

Installing the wood floor in the room was strictly for continuity, to match the rest of the home. Aethetically it just looks better. I'm even surprised how much I prefer it. The tactile gains are a plus but knowing what I know now I wouldn't do it for that reason only. For tactile, VNF's+MA's rule the day and nothing else is close.


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Great room, man. I’ve been meaning to comment on your setup earlier, and now that you finally have a proper thread, i can go ahead
> 
> This room has it all, blacked out, PJ & screen, farfield and nearfield subs, Crowsons AND Buttkickers and proper setup. This has to be close to nirvana on all the senses
> 
> Very nice job, and enjoy watching movies


Thanks Nalleh!! Well not quite all, don't have 4K or ATMOS yet. But yes, so far it really does feel like nirvana on all the senses and something that I've dreamed about for quite some time. I guess dreams really do come true sometimes lol  

Speaking of ATMOS, your setup is way cool!! I bet it sounds absolutely amazing (I'm sure the envelopment is ridiculous)!!


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## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Thanks Nalleh!! Well not quite all, don't have 4K or ATMOS yet. But yes, so far it really does feel like nirvana on all the senses and something that I've dreamed about for quite some time. I guess dreams really do come true sometimes lol
> 
> Speaking of ATMOS, your setup is way cool!! I bet it sounds absolutely amazing (I'm sure the envelopment is ridiculous)!!


Atmos is the biggest step up in audio i have done ever! Recommended ! So yeah you still have some things to improve upon, but that’s ok. 

4K is more of a hit and miss, as some of the UHD’s are spectacular, and others are meh... then again bluray can be incredible good picture wise, so it is not all black and white. But now most UHD’s get the Atmos treatment, so it is a must 


Thanks, i am rather happy with my setup too, and it is also constantly evolving, but it is really cool sit down and watch a good UHD with Atmos and awsome ULF, and you just find yourself smiling trough the movie, then all the work is truly worth it


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## torii

if ya got a big budget, go check out chairs at tema.

https://www.temafurniture.com/living-room/recliners.html


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## SBuger

torii said:


> if ya got a big budget, go check out chairs at tema.
> 
> https://www.temafurniture.com/living-room/recliners.html


Hey Torii! Yeah no kidding huh, wow those chairs anent cheap, but I'll bet they are super comfortable and supportive. Mounting some Buttkickers on them might prove to be a bit challenging though. The Crowsons, they could just go under the supporting legs/frame pretty easy I'll bet. 

Probably a little rich for my blood. I need three seats and the Pembrokes or Sanoma's are pushing it at $2,300 - 2,700. Plus I'll need more BK's and MA's for those as well. I have a feeling I'll be saving for a while longer before I get'm.


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Atmos is the biggest step up in audio i have done ever! Recommended ! So yeah you still have some things to improve upon, but that’s ok.
> 
> 4K is more of a hit and miss, as some of the UHD’s are spectacular, and others are meh... then again bluray can be incredible good picture wise, so it is not all black and white. But now most UHD’s get the Atmos treatment, so it is a must
> 
> 
> Thanks, i am rather happy with my setup too, and it is also constantly evolving, but it is really cool sit down and watch a good UHD with Atmos and awsome ULF, and you just find yourself smiling trough the movie, then all the work is truly worth it


Cool! And yeah I hear ya about the setup constantly evolving, but great to sit down and get totally immersed in a movie. It's worth it. 

Yeah I've heard great things from quite a few folks around here about how good Atmos is. But that'll be a ways out since I probably need more chairs first plus those extra BK's and MAs to go with them. Oh well I guess, something to look forward to


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## torii

well like my dad says, nothing beats a lazy boy. massage and heat and who knows what else they got. https://www.la-z-boy.com/b/recliners/_/N-musa9i#/b/recliners/_/N-musa9i?No=0&Nrpp=32


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## unretarded

I been eying these for a while.......

There are several models/variants.....






















I am in a small room, so 73 inch width caught my eye and even when I go to my new room, 73 inches is less than the 2 singles I have now so it can stay as a front row....



https://www.houzz.com/product/10420...wn-row-of-3-sofa-transitional-theater-seating

The ideal pick for those who want to experience an impressive amount features and extensive comfort. Starting with the delightful view of the contrast stitching pattern running vertically down the back, seat, and footrest. Next, place yourself in the extensive comfort provided by the power adjustable headrest, that allows you to find the upper body position that's just right for your individual needs and the chaise lounge recline that eliminates the gap between the seat and footrest so that you receive complete support from head to toe. Even more, lighted cup holders outline your drinks with a sky blue ambiance that keeps them both secure and discreetly illuminated in a darkened theater. In addition, each armrest also opens out to reveal spacious storage compartments for the placement of remotes, tray tables, reading materials, or other necessary items. Is there more? Of course! Add the armless chair with fold-down table. You can fold the center backrest forward of the fold down table seat and a beautiful burlwood table is revealed as the centerpiece. The table comes with two cupholders and ample space for trays, pads, reading materials, and more! Above the table, the middle headrest flips up to reveal an overhead lighting panel that will illuminate anything you need in the dark. A pop-up input plate just above the table comes equipped with two AC adapter ports and two USB ports, for a truly high-tech experience. With the generous inclusion of so many special features at an outstanding value, the Sigma will surely be your last stand in home theater enjoyment.
Features:
Leather Gel material
Power reclinable with button controls
Powered headrests with button controls
Drop down table with AC power & USB charging station
Hidden in-arm storage with ample space for all your remote controls and other devices
Lighted cupholders
*Fully reclined depth: 64"


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## SBuger

^^^ Hell yeah @unretarded ....those things look badass!! Wonder how TR would be on those, specs show they weigh 400lbs  Might not matter though. I wonder if you could get some insert-able armrests for that middle seat. I think HTtheater offers some for there love seat style seats that can be taken out or put back in depending on your mood or occasion. There's would probably work on these if this company doesn't offer that. A lot of times I'm just watching or demoing by myself in the middle MLP seat and kind of like armrests. My couch downstairs in my former setup didn't have any, so I would always sprawl my arms out over the rest of the couch the best I could to keep contact for better TR and connection. But, I guess its not always about the best possible TR, but sometimes it is LOL

Thanks for posting these. I can already tell, a decision is not going to be easy whenever it comes time to purchase some seats. Hurry up and get'm and let me know how you like them!


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## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Cool! And yeah I hear ya about the setup constantly evolving, but great to sit down and get totally immersed in a movie. It's worth it.
> 
> Yeah I've heard great things from quite a few folks around here about how good Atmos is. But that'll be a ways out since I probably need more chairs first plus those extra BK's and MAs to go with them. Oh well I guess, something to look forward to


You can definetly look forward to Atmos, it is awsome 

It looks like you have 5.1 now with front heights? Neo:X or PLIIz ?

Not everybody can manage 7.1.4 with rear surrounds, but 5.1.4 is a must. You got to have 4 overhead speakers.




unretarded said:


> I been eying these for a while.......
> 
> There are several models/variants.....


Wow, those look insane!! Very clever centersection with the lighting and everything. Sure would be nice to afford something like that


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> You can definetly look forward to Atmos, it is awsome
> 
> It looks like you have 5.1 now with front heights? Neo:X or PLIIz ?
> 
> Not everybody can manage 7.1.4 with rear surrounds, but 5.1.4 is a must. You got to have 4 overhead speakers.


Cool, yep I'm looking forward to it. 

Yes, right now, just 5.1 with the side surrounds + the Heights above my mains (for 7.1 I guess, but no rear surrounds). I was going to add the rear surrounds as well but they would only be about 3' or a little under behind me. Maybe that's enough room to make a difference huh? So I just did only the side surrounds mounted a little bit behind my seat and not pointed directly at me, instead of 90 degrees to my side. I like them this way a little better as it doesn't seem quite as localizable to me and a little more disperse sounding (if that makes sense). If I put up the rears in addition to the sides, I would have mounted the sides surrounds around 90 degrees to my side. Maybe I should have done this and went with the rears as well, IDK. As is it sounds pretty enveloping and I could swear that sometimes it sounds like sounds are coming from above me as well, even though I'm not Atmos yet which is pretty cool.

Yeah when I go Atmos, I definitely want 4 overhead speakers, not just 2. What your saying + everything I've read on it pretty much says the same thing about 2 vs 4 overhead speakers. I'd probably just move my heights that I have now above my mains now, closer to me on the ceiling and the other 2 pair back behind me as far as I could get them (which the back wall from my seating is about 3' from the back of my seat). 

One thing I do think I would miss though is having my front heights over my mains, because I use them for channel centered dialog (that's what they call it on the Onkyos) and really helps in my setup. I used this feature when my setup was downstairs in the living room as well. It just seems to project the dialog a lot better and lifts the height size of the soundstage up a fair amount. Especially at lower listening levels, which I have to do at night. Like around -27 to -30mv (but the VNFs and MAs/TTs still make it real enjoyable thankfully). I pick the level up at night on the amount of dialog that is sent up to the heights (you can choose from 1-5). Normal listening levels I keep it relatively low at 1 and then at night I bump it to 4. Works really well without having to use dynamic volume, which I hate most of the time, and seems to work better than just bumping the center channel level up.

IDK, I'm sure I'll get around that and figure something out that works good for at night when I get the Atmos someday. One thing that I could do is replace my center channel speaker with another speaker like my tower speaker mains. They are a fair amount better than the center that I use I think. Then just move the sub that the center is now sitting on to one side or the other. 

Also yes, I'm using Neo:X and PLIIz. I like both, but almost always prefer Neo:X on 7.1 mixes and PLIIz on 5.1 mixes. I've tested this a lot and prefer it this way 99% of the time, so I just change it depending what the movie soundtrack is in. I might feel differently if I had rear surrounds in the mix though, IDK.


----------



## SBuger

Also here is some more seating that I thought looked pretty great (although maybe not quite as cool looking as the ones you posted - those just looked bad ass) and is now on my list as well. It's only 100" wide which is good for me and has armrests between the 3 seats, with power head rests as well like the ones @unretarded posted above (which is going to be a must for me on these chairs). The others on my list (Pembrokes and Senomas) had the power headrests as well. 

These do have what looks like an extra plush cushion though and that cool gel foam to help keep the seat cool. Makes me wonder how that would all translate into the TR. I know, here I go again about the TR, but it's important! LOL I bet they are damn comfortable though! 

Have any of you guys experienced any HT chairs with the cool get foam in them? With these top end seats being top grain leather, heating up over time wont be near as much of a problem though from what I've heard others say. My couch that I used downstairs, which is bonded leather most definitely heats up over time, enough so that at some point it can feel like it starts to roast your back, butt, crotch area LOL. Then I have to get up and change to the seat next to me to get cooled off again ..not cool. Top grain leather should take care of this problem, and the cool gel foam would probably help as well.

Here's the those seats I'm talking about (Not sure how you embedded the image of the ones you posted above), but here is the link at least ...

https://www.houzz.com/product/56971...leather-row-of-3-contemporary-theater-seating


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## Nalleh

I have my rears 3 feet behind me, and they work very well. The advantage of having them close, is they don’t need to be big. In fact i changed from Klipsch RS 42 to Kef 3005 rear, and they work just as well.

Another plus if you do rears, is you can move your side surrounds a bit ahead of 90 degrees to the sides, to avoid localizable the same way you now have them behind you. Kind of like «wides».

Also, i have front and rear heights in my Atmos setup(instead of top front and top rear), and it works awsome, so you can keep your front heights and your «dialog lift» (as Yamaha calls it), no worries. Just add rear heights 

Yeah, i use a second center speaker above the screen as «dialog lift», it is from my second AVR center output, so i can adjust the «lift». Work beatifully.

In my pre-Atmos days i also used Neo-X for movies, but i had a 11.1 setup(wides too).

But Atmos is way better, no comparison


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> I have my rears 3 feet behind me, and they work very well. The advantage of having them close, is they don’t need to be big. In fact i changed from Klipsch RS 42 to Kef 3005 rear, and they work just as well.
> 
> Another plus if you do rears, is you can move your side surrounds a bit ahead of 90 degrees to the sides, to avoid localizable the same way you now have them behind you. Kind of like «wides».
> 
> Also, i have front and rear heights in my Atmos setup(instead of top front and top rear), and it works awsome, so you can keep your front heights and your «dialog lift» (as Yamaha calls it), no worries. Just add rear heights
> 
> Yeah, i use a second center speaker above the screen as «dialog lift», it is from my second AVR center output, so i can adjust the «lift». Work beatifully.
> 
> In my pre-Atmos days i also used Neo-X for movies, but i had a 11.1 setup(wides too).
> 
> But Atmos is way better, no comparison


Awesome ..thanks for the info! Maybe I'll incorporate the rears as well then! Then, when I get ready to do the Atmos, maybe I'll do what you did and keep my front heights for dialog as well. You are the king when it comes to this Atmos and multiple speaker stuff! 

I may have to pick your brain about it a little more when it comes time to set it all up one of these days!

Thanks!


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## Nalleh

Sure, happy to help 


PS: and don’t forget, all Atmos AVR’s also has a upmixer you can use for the non-Atmos movies in your collection, which means all your movies get played upmixed to your setup, be it 5.1.4 or 7.1.4. And the upmixer is incredible good too, so it’s a win-win.


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## unretarded

SBuger said:


> Also here is some more seating that I thought looked pretty great (although maybe not quite as cool looking as the ones you posted - those just looked bad ass) and is now on my list as well. It's only 100" wide which is good for me and has armrests between the 3 seats, with power head rests as well like the ones @unretarded posted above (which is going to be a must for me on these chairs). The others on my list (Pembrokes and Senomas) had the power headrests as well.
> 
> These do have what looks like an extra plush cushion though and that cool gel foam to help keep the seat cool. Makes me wonder how that would all translate into the TR. I know, here I go again about the TR, but it's important! LOL I bet they are damn comfortable though!
> 
> Have any of you guys experienced any HT chairs with the cool get foam in them? With these top end seats being top grain leather, heating up over time wont be near as much of a problem though from what I've heard others say. My couch that I used downstairs, which is bonded leather most definitely heats up over time, enough so that at some point it can feel like it starts to roast your back, butt, crotch area LOL. Then I have to get up and change to the seat next to me to get cooled off again ..not cool. Top grain leather should take care of this problem, and the cool gel foam would probably help as well.
> 
> Here's the those seats I'm talking about (Not sure how you embedded the image of the ones you posted above), but here is the link at least ...
> 
> https://www.houzz.com/product/56971...leather-row-of-3-contemporary-theater-seating



Those look really nice !

I really like armrests for each seat as just gives every body their own space and more important keeps em out of my space.....lol


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## SBuger

So a bit of an update: 

I'm still really liking my new room and setup, if not more so than ever now that I've spent some time with it. I'm still pretty blown away by the image that this older Epson 5030 with a Darbee is putting out with the all blacked out room (SY Triple Black Velvet), and can only imagine what one of the newer top end projectors that a lot of you guys are running would be like. Blacking out the room really made a tremendous difference on the image. At the moment (I'm sure this will change at some point), I really have no desire for an upgraded projector yet (a smoother screen at times, yes). I don't know what I'm more pleased with at the moment, the PQ and envelopment with setting so close and everything blacked out so there is no distractions OR the sound from the room treatments etc. The bass is about what I was used to in my other setup, but a little cleaner, which is cool (I did love the bass I had downstairs and worked really hard on it to get what I wanted for movie soundtracks). But the overall sound, I'm really impressed with so far. I guess the velvet is not having a bad effect on it like I thought it might, at least to my ears. Then totally deadening the front wall along with first reflection points really, really helped. It's so much cleaner, precise, and enveloping than what I was used to in my reflective untreated living room, with imaging that I didn't really know was possible in a multi speaker HT setup (I'm not talking two channel stereo for music here, this setup is 100% for movies). I don't even have Atmos yet or rear surrounds, only the standard 5.1 with side surrounds + the heights (so 7.1 I guess). I can only imagine what Atmos like a lot of you guys have would be like, because with just this, I can pretty much pinpoint where sounds are coming from a lot of times (I'm not talking about like ..oh yeah that sound is coming from this or that speaker). A lot of times I get sounds coming from the ceiling, or side of ceiling, or side wall etc and in all different areas with depth, like sometimes closer to me or farther away. Very 3D like. I think of it as imaging and its kind of freaky, but oh so cool, especially since everything is blacked out but the screen. It seems to make the sound more encapsulating (I think that's the word I'm looking for) and seem a lot more real.

Its happened to me a handful of times already on different material, but today I was watching Pacific Rim and the part where the Kaiju was coming up out of the water by that little rescue boat (2nd or 3rd chapter I think) when the siren starts going off to warn of the approaching Kaiju (or something huge), it seriously freaked me out it was so real sounding. Unlike sometimes when I can pinpoint where different sounds at varying depths and areas are at, I couldn't really pinpoint this. It was just everywhere like it was really happening in real life and not in a room from a movie soundtrack. I kind of had to snap myself out of it to realize it's coming from the movie LOL. That combined with the bass and vibrations and big TR along with the immersive video and no visual distractions, I thinks it's one of the coolest home theater experiences I ever had. There were a couple other scenes that had close to the same effect in this movie and others. 

I'm hearing things that I've never heard before and lots of things that I have heard in a different and better way on movie soundtracks that I'm super familiar with and have seen several times. This is just so cool to me. I've read before that the room and treatments can be a lot more important than what speakers you have. I now believe and understand this. My KEFs are great and I love them, but I know there are better than the ones I have. It amazes me how much better they sound in this treated room and really is like the speakers themselves have totally disappeared. It's way more 3D/multi dimensional sounding and like I'm not even in a room most of the time. Its pretty fun being new to room treatments 

So anyway, I'm a bit excited about it all as you can probably tell :grin: I had to tell somebody about it and remembered I've got a dedicated thread now, so why not post it here LOL. Oh yeah, I did tell one of my buddies here on AVS with a similar setup about it 

I'm very happy that I was able to make the move to a dedicated room, even if it's a bit small with square dimensions. It makes getting a good FR kind of tough, but I'm managing. But it's really helped take the experience to the next level for me, which is what I was hoping for. Hopefully I continue to feel this way about it over time.


----------



## unretarded

NICE!


I am happy to hear the room treatments made a drastic difference, I am yet to do it, but plan to.


I get what your saying about the sound though, I have a .2 Atmos set up with 2 ceiling speakers, want a .4 with 4 ceiling speakers........but even with just 2, it is freaky how real the sounds can be at times. Limbs snaping overhead such as in the new blair witch were freaky and made you want to throw a arm up to keep from getting hit by one and in some of the horror movies the doors opening closing and knocks still make me pause the movie to see if it is a really a knock and not a movie effect.


I know just the velvet helped with speaker sound as I am forced to have horrible placement due to my obsession with the biggest possible screen, the speakers are at ear height, but pressed all the way in the corners on each side of the screen firing straight down the wall.....I need to figure out how to get some angle on them towards the MLP since I do listen to a lot of music, movies it is not soo bad, but I am sure it would be better even on movies.



Dedicated rooms, even small ones are great !


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## Nalleh

Awsome @SBuger 

Don‘t worry too much about 4K. With your blacked out room, your 1080p setup is probably as good as many untreated 4K pj rooms.

BTW: when i think about it, since your speakers are all KEF’s already, you could upgrade to Atmos real easy by finding a used set of KEF egg 5.1 speakers. Either the 3005 SE or the newer 305. And then use two for rear surrounds and two for rear height.

Done: 7.1.4 

This way all your speakers would have the Uni-Q drivers and would be timber matched. I use the 3005 for all my heights, and they sound incredible for their size. (You need a new AVR too of course).

Like so:


----------



## SBuger

Thanks guys! 
@unretarded - I didn't realize you had some Atmos going on ...awesome!!  Yeah I need to check out some of those types of movies. I still have the Conjuring 1 & 2 as well as the latest Poltergeist that I still haven't watched yet. I picked them up because a lot of folks were talking about how great the bass was in these a while back. I'm sure it'll be pretty freaky like your talking about. 
@Nalleh - That's a great idea about the KEF eggs for Atmos, thanks. I was kind of planning on doing that for my heights and surrounds since I had to buy some for this new room. I used in-walls in my downstairs setup so I couldn't just bring them up with the rest of my gear. But since the q100s went on sale and are still fairly small, I ended up getting those instead. 

So yeah, maybe that's what I'll do with the eggs and yes, I'll need a new AVR as well. Jeez ...its always more things that I want for this awesome and crazy hobby. 

damn ...you've got a lot of speakers around you! That must sound sick as hell!!! Very, very cool. I can only imagine the amount of envelopment you get and the feeling it creates. Good stuff man!


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## biga6761

Hey @SBuger just read through and things are looking great brother. It looks like we both moved into dedicated rooms at about the same time. I moved into a new place since we last corresponded and it has a separate solid block garage with one of the 14'x30' bays separated by a block wall. Can you say perfect for a Theater? So I built out the room with dark navy interlock fabric on the walls and an 8 Ht-18v.2 IB and the best part is I can as loud as I want anytime I want even when my woman is sleeping. I also bought my first PJ and a 125" 235:1 screen and with it being a Panny ae4000 it's 8 years old and a wee bit dim but I can fully back your feeling on the dark fabric walls. As soon as I got the fabric up the brightness was no longer an issue whatsoever and the blacks improved noticeably. 

I also added a large riser and 2 rows of seats instead of the single I was stuck with in my living room. As before I still have 2 Buttkicker LFE's (which I LOVE!!) under my main couch and even though I was on suspended floors I noticed a substantial difference once on the riser even with the IB and MBM's off. I also left the rubber ball isolators I always used under the feet of the couch and the Buttkickers still heavily shake the whole 8'x14' 13"tall( a 2x4 and 2x10 stacked) riser. It also really helped with TR from the subs too so it may be something you want to look into doing to help get that last bit from your TT's. You could even build you up a small 2x4 riser for your single chair for super cheap and see if you like what it adds then scale from there if you later change seating. I really like what it added to my TR and as much as you like that wobble/trampoline effect like I do, I think you would too.

As for Atmos I fully, whole heartedly agree that it was the biggest audio upgrade I have ever done, it's just as @Nalleh was saying. I made the switch about 2 years ago now and I couldn't be more amazed by it on a daily basis. It stills does things to this day that surprise and even shock me. I can't recommend you make the jump fast enough, run don't walk bro. IMO part of the great imaging and sounds you hear coming from above are just a taste of what you will experience and a lot of what you are hearing is the fact that lots of movies are being mixed on Atmos consoles and even though you don't yet have it, it's so good that the effect even works without it, though diminished and less precisely placed. I'm also of the opinion that your KEF's are another large part of the great imaging your hearing and I wish I could hear an all KEF system like yours and can only imagine how insane they would be full Atmos like @Nalleh's. 
Sorry to push you so hard but hey that's what AVS friends are for right? LOL I know you plan to but Nike that shiz man ASAP.

So glad you are loving the new room and the sound that the acoustic treatments have brought you. I too am a big believer in what they can do and wish I knew more about how to place what I have and would like to know how to properly add some difusion too. I've done first reflection points like you have and the front wall as well but I'm very curious what an acoustic professional could coax from my room but doubt I'll have the budget anytime soon. I plan to build more and see what I can come up with though as that's half the fun and I like the change every time I add more.

Truly Killer system brother Buger, keep up the strong work. I have always liked your setup and really like the thought of it in the smaller room. 

The pics from your PJ always impress me too right down to your avitar. The 5030 was a strong contender for me til I found a sweetheart deal on the low hour panny and really wonder what if anything the jump to 4k would bring you. Don't get me wrong, as close as you sit a 4k PJ may well look better but I can't imagine more than 10-15% difference, if that, and maybe a bit better sharpness but from what I see in your pics that might not be possible. Very nice indeed.

Also careful not to over scramble your kidneys with all the VNF firepower and TT/MA's. LOL my wife recently informed me it's totally possible......and that in the new room -15 is her new limit apparently.
Hey Dr....can bass cause a UTI? LMAO Of course she tried to convince me the answer was yes, declared we now have too much bass and set a -15 limit when she's present. OH YEA.... LEVEL UP!!!!

Stay in touch and I look forward to your progress. 

Edit:
Lastly I have to say as others have you are extremely impressive in your ability to write up your experiences and then display your results for us all to see. I think that's what drew me to love your system so much, when I first found your threads, is how well you have displayed it from day one, in all your threads. 
I see a lot of folks talk about how you can't take good photos of a PJ image or that web compression will kill the quality and it's a waste of time but I immediately recall your threads and pics from your screen and say to myself, really?, take a look at Buger's shots and then tell me that again. 
Also I've always found inspiration in your use of TT's. When most talk about finding the sensation fake or removing their TT's especially with VNF subs, your killer explanation and experience with what most would consider "overkill" spurred me on to find the tactile glory I currently have in my room with dual Buttkickers and dual Auras on 1 couch. You also have me wanting to add Crowson's but man I built my whole IB for about the same cost so I'm kinda torn. But once again the quality of your write ups have me convinced the MA are totally worth the cost.
Lol..... that's one reason I'm pushing you to spend some of your $ on Atmos ( cause you'll love it) cause without even knowing it you are pushing me to spend mine......
Simply outstanding work as always bro.


----------



## SBuger

biga6761 said:


> Hey @SBuger just read through and things are looking great brother. It looks like we both moved into dedicated rooms at about the same time. I moved into a new place since we last corresponded and it has a separate solid block garage with one of the 14'x30' bays separated by a block wall. Can you say perfect for a Theater? So I built out the room with dark navy interlock fabric on the walls and an 8 Ht-18v.2 IB and the best part is I can as loud as I want anytime I want even when my woman is sleeping. I also bought my first PJ and a 125" 235:1 screen and with it being a Panny ae4000 it's 8 years old and a wee bit dim but I can fully back your feeling on the dark fabric walls. As soon as I got the fabric up the brightness was no longer an issue whatsoever and the blacks improved noticeably.
> 
> I also added a large riser and 2 rows of seats instead of the single I was stuck with in my living room. As before I still have 2 Buttkicker LFE's (which I LOVE!!) under my main couch and even though I was on suspended floors I noticed a substantial difference once on the riser even with the IB and MBM's off. I also left the rubber ball isolators I always used under the feet of the couch and the Buttkickers still heavily shake the whole 8'x14' 13"tall( a 2x4 and 2x10 stacked) riser. It also really helped with TR from the subs too so it may be something you want to look into doing to help get that last bit from your TT's. You could even build you up a small 2x4 riser for your single chair for super cheap and see if you like what it adds then scale from there if you later change seating. I really like what it added to my TR and as much as you like that wobble/trampoline effect like I do, I think you would too.
> 
> As for Atmos I fully, whole heartedly agree that it was the biggest audio upgrade I have ever done, it's just as @Nalleh was saying. I made the switch about 2 years ago now and I couldn't be more amazed by it on a daily basis. It stills does things to this day that surprise and even shock me. I can't recommend you make the jump fast enough, run don't walk bro. IMO part of the great imaging and sounds you hear coming from above are just a taste of what you will experience and a lot of what you are hearing is the fact that lots of movies are being mixed on Atmos consoles and even though you don't yet have it, it's so good that the effect even works without it, though diminished and less precisely placed. I'm also of the opinion that your KEF's are another large part of the great imaging your hearing and I wish I could hear an all KEF system like yours and can only imagine how insane they would be full Atmos like @Nalleh's.
> Sorry to push you so hard but hey that's what AVS friends are for right? LOL I know you plan to but Nike that shiz man ASAP.
> 
> So glad you are loving the new room and the sound that the acoustic treatments have brought you. I too am a big believer in what they can do and wish I knew more about how to place what I have and would like to know how to properly add some difusion too. I've done first reflection points like you have and the front wall as well but I'm very curious what an acoustic professional could coax from my room but doubt I'll have the budget anytime soon. I plan to build more and see what I can come up with though as that's half the fun and I like the change every time I add more.
> 
> Truly Killer system brother Buger, keep up the strong work. I have always liked your setup and really like the thought of it in the smaller room.
> 
> The pics from your PJ always impress me too right down to your avitar. The 5030 was a strong contender for me til I found a sweetheart deal on the low hour panny and really wonder what if anything the jump to 4k would bring you. Don't get me wrong, as close as you sit a 4k PJ may well look better but I can't imagine more than 10-15% difference, if that, and maybe a bit better sharpness but from what I see in your pics that might not be possible. Very nice indeed.
> 
> Also careful not to over scramble your kidneys with all the VNF firepower and TT/MA's. LOL my wife recently informed me it's totally possible......and that in the new room -15 is her new limit apparently.
> Hey Dr....can bass cause a UTI? LMAO Of course she tried to convince me the answer was yes, declared we now have too much bass and set a -15 limit when she's present. OH YEA.... LEVEL UP!!!!
> 
> Stay in touch and I look forward to your progress.
> 
> Edit:
> Lastly I have to say as others have you are extremely impressive in your ability to write up your experiences and then display your results for us all to see. I think that's what drew me to love your system so much, when I first found your threads, is how well you have displayed it from day one, in all your threads.
> I see a lot of folks talk about how you can't take good photos of a PJ image or that web compression will kill the quality and it's a waste of time but I immediately recall your threads and pics from your screen and say to myself, really?, take a look at Buger's shots and then tell me that again.
> Also I've always found inspiration in your use of TT's. When most talk about finding the sensation fake or removing their TT's especially with VNF subs, your killer explanation and experience with what most would consider "overkill" spurred me on to find the tactile glory I currently have in my room with dual Buttkickers and dual Auras on 1 couch. You also have me wanting to add Crowson's but man I built my whole IB for about the same cost so I'm kinda torn. But once again the quality of your write ups have me convinced the MA are totally worth the cost.
> Lol..... that's one reason I'm pushing you to spend some of your $ on Atmos ( cause you'll love it) cause without even knowing it you are pushing me to spend mine......
> Simply outstanding work as always bro.


Thanks @biga6761 for stopping by and taking the time to write up a fantastic post!!

Ahhhh ..that's awesome that you moved into a dedicated space as well!! CONGRATS!! And yes, that sounds perfect for a dedicated room. I'm jealous that you can listen how ever loud you want at whatever time and not bother your woman. I still can't get away with that in this new room. In the middle of the day (weekday), I can listen how ever loud I can stand, but at night, there is still to much sound that travels through the house even with the door closed (but its mainly the bass). Bass can travel like crazy unfortunately. So at night, I have to listen around -30mv or so. Luckily, with the VNFs and BKs&MAs, it's still quite enjoyable and feels like the walls and stuff are shaking ..but the wife and daughter don't really wake up, which is cool. 

Nice on the fabric and projector! The PJ is a must have and the darkening of walls etc just helps the image and emersion so much. Also, very nice about your IB and MBM's. I'm sure it feels crushing in your room. And yes, your BK's as well. Its still amazes me what they can add. I don't think I could ever be without them, even with also having the Crowson MAs. They are just so damn powerful and give that trampoline feeling so well like you were saying! Yes, I may have to try a riser at some point to see if I can get even more of that. But that said, my suspended floor does seem to have a fair amount of flex in it and it moves like crazy when I'm standing. But when seating, it still feels real similar to when I was on concrete in my downstairs setup. It's just so hard to compete with what the VNFs + TT/MA bring. Although it may be adding a bit more depth to the TR at some frequencies. But a riser like your talking about may help as well like it does for you, sounds like you've experienced both, which is way cool!

About the Atmos, awesome that your running that (wow lots of folks have made the jump already). Yep, I really do think I'm going to absolutely love Atmos since I'm really digging what little bit of sounds that seem to be coming from the ceiling on certain tracks just from the imaging. I'm sure Atmos will be even WAY better. About the KEF's, yeah I think that's one of the strong points about these Kef speakers is the imaging. I've heard other folks talk about this before with them and I think they're right. And yep, I'm sure @Nalleh's full-on Atmos'ed out to the max setup is insane! Hey I don't mind the nudge from you guys! 

About the treatments, cool that's what you've done as well. Sounds real similar to mine. I still want to mess with some diffusion at some point as well like you were saying (probably towards the back of the room). Maybe on the side walls and back wall, maybe even a little on the ceiling, but will probably wait until I do the Atmos and all that first. 

Also, your wife makes a good point about scrambling the kidneys with all the VNF firepower and TT/MA's. I do actually sometimes worry about that. Surely it can't be to great on the organs over a period of time. Hopefully it wont start taking its toll on me. Speaking of a -15mv limit, in this small room, -15mv just seems pretty damn loud on most soundtracks and pretty much gives me all I want and can handle comfortably. I can go a little higher, but not for extended periods of time. Even with the treatments and clarity, it's still just loud as hell in this small room. Not fatiguing, just loud. -12mv to -17mv with subs ran anywhere from about 8-15db hot (depending on the movies soundtrack) in this new room and setup, seems just about right for my tastes. These moderate Master Volume levels (well I think of them as moderate anyway compared to where a lot of folks around here listen at) and subs ran hot will still slam and shake the hell out me though. This is what ultimately pushed me into trying the VNF's and BKs/MAs. I didn't want to have to listen at uncomfortable levels in order to get what I think is pretty crazy impact and TR. It helps so much IME and really does help save on the ears. 

So anyway, I just want to say THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your wonderful compliments on my system and my write ups about my experiences etc.!! That really means a lot to me!! I do truly love this stuff (HT in general, but especially the bass and TR part of it) and hopefully my extreme passion for it comes through in my writings and is able to inspire, help and give ideas to others. From the sounds of it, I think it may have done that for you and makes it worth the times it takes sometimes to write it all up and post it. Don't get me wrong, it's fun too, but can be difficult to try to put it all into words sometimes. But if it can help a few folks and hopefully be somewhat interesting, then it's worth it! 

About the pics, thanks for the compliments on them. Taking PJ and HT setup pics actually can be kind of difficult. I used to be into photography a little bit, so I've got a few tricks that do seems to help out some. I've seen a few pics in these parts that truly look "Professional" that put mine to shame, but thank you! 

As far as pushing me to spend some of my money on Atmos and other goodies, it's only fair since it sounds like I've unknowingly pushed you to spend your as well 

I REALLY do want Atmos and will get there eventually. I've got to recover a bit from all the stuff I needed to get the room in pretty good working order, plus I really do need some seating (3 HT seats and more BK's and Crowson + Amps to go with them) in this room before I get Atmos. So unfortunately, It'll probably be awhile, but hopefully in the next year or so. You guys comments on how great Atmos is really sealed the deal for me ....it's gonna happen for sure at some point in the hopefully not to distant future !!


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## jedimastergrant

Buger, I love the approach. I have never seen anything so extreme. I see what you mean by VNF VERY Near Field. 

Glad you are enjoying the black velvet benefits. It was worth it for me as well. 

I know you are hearing this from everyone but your room and especially your preferences do call for Atmos/DTS:X. I mean your whole vibe in that room is immersion. So it totally makes sense to do an immersive audio set up in there. How much difference it will make depends on what you are coming from. It looks like you are already more immersive than many regarding your audio so it might not be night and day difference. But, we are striving for percentage points here and there in this hobby. And it all adds up to a superior experience in total. 

Your 3 theater chairs come first though. I know you are looking at some nice chairs and you may have special requirements so you can add tactile transducers. But, I got my chairs used and they are still nice and nobody knows or cares when the lights are out. Just thinking of ways to save money so you can move forward sooner. 

And I think the advice Nellah gave about sticking with your projector for now is good. Just upgrade the AVR and put up 2-4 speakers in your ceiling. Does not need to be a large investment. You can use the up mixer function on everything and it works very very well. Even sporting events are better for crying out loud. So it is a winner in my book. 

That Marvel screen saver is a stunner! Keep up the good work.


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## biga6761

jedimastergrant said:


> Buger,
> I think the advice Nellah gave about sticking with your projector for now is good. Just upgrade the AVR and put up 2-4 speakers in your ceiling. Does not need to be a large investment. You can use the up mixer function on everything and it works very very well. Even sporting events are better for crying out loud. So it is a winner in my book.
> 
> That Marvel screen saver is a stunner! Keep up the good work.





SBuger said:


> Thanks @biga6761 Hey I don't mind the nudge from you guys!
> You guys comments on how great Atmos is really sealed the deal for me ....it's gonna happen for sure at some point in the hopefully not to distant future !!


No problem man I just love checking out your setup and stop by often. I hate to keep on you Bug but the band wagon is already rolling with mastergrants great post and Nellah's smart advise so I can't resist. These guys are on to something here and you simply must go Atmos sooner rather than later. 
And with the next gen. pre-amps and receivers(like the new flagship Denon x8500H) allowing 6 height channels I bet a lot of guys around here will be selling perfectly good Atmos/(DTS:X? not really required IMHO because of Dolby Surround Upmixer but would be great to have, also the Audyssey app is not on 1st. gen Atmos units like my AV7702 ,so something to consider when shopping used/old stock) units for killer prices real soon so keep your eyes peeled and I bet you'll score a sweet deal. A few KEF's for the ceiling and Bob's U'r uncle & Nancy's U'r aunt...IMMERSIVE AUDIO in the sweet ass Buger theater! Just sayin' brother, I can't recommend it enough. 

















Edit: Case in point. Flagship, half price! And 1 Hell of a piece of kit.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-audio-gear/2947968-fs-marantz-av8802a.html


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## unretarded




----------



## SBuger

jedimastergrant said:


> Buger, I love the approach. I have never seen anything so extreme. I see what you mean by VNF VERY Near Field.
> 
> Glad you are enjoying the black velvet benefits. It was worth it for me as well.
> 
> I know you are hearing this from everyone but your room and especially your preferences do call for Atmos/DTS:X. I mean your whole vibe in that room is immersion. So it totally makes sense to do an immersive audio set up in there. How much difference it will make depends on what you are coming from. It looks like you are already more immersive than many regarding your audio so it might not be night and day difference. But, we are striving for percentage points here and there in this hobby. And it all adds up to a superior experience in total.
> 
> Your 3 theater chairs come first though. I know you are looking at some nice chairs and you may have special requirements so you can add tactile transducers. But, I got my chairs used and they are still nice and nobody knows or cares when the lights are out. Just thinking of ways to save money so you can move forward sooner.
> 
> And I think the advice Nellah gave about sticking with your projector for now is good. Just upgrade the AVR and put up 2-4 speakers in your ceiling. Does not need to be a large investment. You can use the up mixer function on everything and it works very very well. Even sporting events are better for crying out loud. So it is a winner in my book.
> 
> That Marvel screen saver is a stunner! Keep up the good work.


Thank you for the kind words and suggestions!! 

Atmos is something I'm VERY excited about! Your right, since a huge part of what I'm going for in my room is total immersion for these movies, I'm sure Atmos will definitely add to the experience a lot, quite possibly even tremendously over what I have now. I've heard nothing but great things about Atmos, and am truly excited about it! 

That said, I went ahead and took the plunge and ordered a couple of chairs a little before Christmas (just two for now). They've been on backorder, but should be here any day now. Unfortunately that means I'll have to exercise a bit more patience for just a little while longer. You guys talking about how awesome this Atmos is though does have me giddy thinking about it, and kind of makes me wish I would have just kept my old one seat for now, and went with Atmos first. 

It's coming next though, and maybe even before I get two more Crowson MA's for the 2nd seat. Man this place is evil, great, but evil!!!  There is always more that I want, or need (that's what I tell myself and my better half anyway)  

KEF has recently upgraded the Q series that I have now and are fading them out for new versions. Looks like the little q100's I'm using as front heights and side surrounds are on sale (they dropped the price even more since I bought the q100's I have now a couple months ago). I may just go ahead and bit the bullet and order 2 more sets before they are gone though and have to pay twice the price for the new ones (and keep them all the same). That would give me 7.1.4 (I think). Add rear surrounds to my side surrounds, then move my front heights closer to me, and put up rear heights. Then, I'll just need a new AVR.


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## SBuger

biga6761 said:


> No problem man I just love checking out your setup and stop by often. I hate to keep on you Bug but the band wagon is already rolling with mastergrants great post and Nellah's smart advise so I can't resist. These guys are on to something here and you simply must go Atmos sooner rather than later.
> And with the next gen. pre-amps and receivers(like the new flagship Denon x8500H) allowing 6 height channels I bet a lot of guys around here will be selling perfectly good Atmos/(DTS:X? not really required IMHO because of Dolby Surround Upmixer but would be great to have, also the Audyssey app is not on 1st. gen Atmos units like my AV7702 ,so something to consider when shopping used/old stock) units for killer prices real soon so keep your eyes peeled and I bet you'll score a sweet deal. A few KEF's for the ceiling and Bob's U'r uncle & Nancy's U'r aunt...IMMERSIVE AUDIO in the sweet ass Buger theater! Just sayin' brother, I can't recommend it enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Case in point. Flagship, half price! And 1 Hell of a piece of kit.
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-audio-gear/2947968-fs-marantz-av8802a.html


Hey thanks man, your more than welcome to stop by anytime!! 

Its all good, you guys have more than convinced me to go Atmos! I have no doubt it's as good as you say, as well as up-mixing the 5.1 and 7.1 non Atmos mixes. I'm super stoked about it, and really do wish it was sooner than later. But as you probably saw in my post to Jedimastergrant, I went ahead and ordered a couple seats a little before Christmas (should be here any day now), so unfortunately that pushes me back a little while longer (patience is not one of my strong points). But it's definitely coming in the hopefully not to distant future!! 

Good call on revivers, I'll definitely have to keep my eye out, especially when the times comes. Thanks for the suggestion!!


----------



## unretarded

Those q100`s are great speakers !

I would shoot for on ceiling locations though.......if you plan on height locations, I think that will be leaving a lot on the table performance wise for the Atmos speakers.

Maybe I read your post wrong and the height thing has nothing to do with Atmos.....


----------



## SBuger

unretarded said:


> Those q100`s are great speakers !
> 
> I would shoot for on ceiling locations though.......if you plan on height locations, I think that will be leaving a lot on the table performance wise for the Atmos speakers.
> 
> Maybe I read your post wrong and the height thing has nothing to do with Atmos.....


Oh yeah for sure on the ceiling. So I'd have the normal 7 channels: L,C,R, SLS, SRS, RLS,RRS, then the 4 up top for ceiling speakers: 1 set (so two speakers) a little in front of my seats on the ceiling and the second set (two more speakers) a little behind my seats on the ceiling, whatever they are called.

This would make 7.1.4 right? 7 normal channels, sub, then 4 speakers up top on ceiling for Atmos right? That is what I was trying to describe but probably messed that up and got confusing. What I meant was that I currently use front heights on the ceiling up above my front L and R speakers with PLIIz or Neo:X, but would then just move those forward closer to me up on the ceiling and use the two new sets of q100's as one more set of surrounds (since mine is just 5.1 with side surrounds now (7.1 counting my heights)) and the other set for the other 2 ceiling speakers a little behind my seats. 

Make sense, or am I thinking wrong here about the basic Atmos setup, which sure may be the case?


----------



## Nalleh

^^ You explained it perfectly fine 
Will be fun to follow your impressions WHEN you upgrade 

Spoiler alert: you will need to watch ALL your movies again


----------



## unretarded

SBuger said:


> Oh yeah for sure on the ceiling. So I'd have the normal 7 channels: L,C,R, SLS, SRS, RLS,RRS, then the 4 up top for ceiling speakers: 1 set (so two speakers) a little in front of my seats on the ceiling and the second set (two more speakers) a little behind my seats on the ceiling, whatever they are called.
> 
> This would make 7.1.4 right? 7 normal channels, sub, then 4 speakers up top on ceiling for Atmos right? That is what I was trying to describe but probably messed that up and got confusing. What I meant was that I currently use front heights on the ceiling up above my front L and R speakers with PLIIz or Neo:X, but would then just move those forward closer to me up on the ceiling and use the two new sets of q100's as one more set of surrounds (since mine is just 5.1 with side surrounds now (7.1 counting my heights)) and the other set for the other 2 ceiling speakers a little behind my seats.
> 
> Make sense, or am I thinking wrong here about the basic Atmos setup, which sure may be the case?



Just checking....sometimes people use heights interchangeable with top wall mounted and the ceiling locations.



Yeah.......I made the mistake of only going with a ceiling/height pair, instead of 4.......I am 5.1.2, my next receiver will be a .4 or if I go crazy a .6......


----------



## SBuger

Oh man ....look what showed up this last weekend!! YAY!! Actually they were here last Friday but had to stay in the moving truck over the weekend, they couldn't get to them until Monday. That was so hard to wait over the weekend knowing they were here but not at my house!

I had kind of forgotten how exciting it is when some big boxes show up having to do with Home Theater. It's been way too long  My daughter was just as excited as I was LOL I think she already has my shopping sickness when it comes to getting cool stuff (oh no!!). 

So first thing was to get my dual BK LFE's mounted to them before I even thought about moving them up into my room. Even though coolrda thought I could get it done and looked under his Pembroke chairs for me (thank you!), I was quite nervous waiting on these things to see if I was going to be able to get them mounted inside the chair, but thankfully and very fortunately I was able to get them in there in a real good spot. I didn't want to have to mount them externally if I could help it (or even one inside and one externally). In fact, they couldn't have fit in there more perfect than the way they did. They had just barely the right amount of clearance from that back bar when in the upright position and then no problems at all when going to any position in recline mode. 

HooRay!!!!! Yes Yes Yes, I'm so relieved and happy about this, because yes, I still love these things and cant do without them, even with the MA's in the mix. The BK's are just too good and bring something special to the mix IMO that's hard to explain, even though the MAs are great too. So yep, I'm running both the 2 MAs and 2 BK LFE's per one chair. I'll admit, I'm a TR nut, and love the heck out of it 

I just got the 2 chairs (maybe a 3rd later, we'll see), but for now I just moved the one with the two arm rests up to my room. The other is still boxed up, but think I'm going to go ahead and order 2 more MA's and 2 more BK's LFE's for the other seat in about a week (even though I really shouldn't until I save some more after all my recent purchases), then I'll move it up to my room as well and then do the recalibration thing for two seats, instead of one. So far with the one seat, I just put it where my single recliner was before and haven't ran a recal and it sounds great. I'll probably wait until I get the 2nd chair in place to rerun Audy etc. I just cant stand the thought of having another chair in there without MAs and BK's to go with it LOL. Also I may try moving my subs a bit (not the one behind each chair, but the others). I still have a dip/null in that oh so important 52-60ish area without probably to much PEQ/manipulating to lift it. It'd be nice to maybe get lucky and find a spot or two that can help a little. Initially I tried a bunch of locations, but didn't really see much difference. Damn square room and room modes!! I'll try again and see what happens. 

So far, the one chair is amazing!! I love this thing and is good as I was hoping it would be. Its a fair amount firmer than what I'm used too, compared to my couch downstairs where my previous setup was and especially compared to that single recliner I was using in my new room. That thing was almost too soft and kind of swallowed you. Super comfy, but almost to plush and soft, but I thought TR was still great in it though, surprisingly. 

So this new chair is going to be just about right I think, and I'm already getting used to it being firmer than my old recliner. It seems very supportive and just about right, not to soft but not to overly firm. I'm sure it loosen up a bit over time as well. Oh yeah, the power head rest if awesome too!! No way was I going to get a seat without it, because I always kind of felt like I was looking down my nose on my other recliner if I reclined very far at all and kind of stared hurting my neck trying to bend it forward so I could get a good view of the screen. I tried pillows and rolled up towels etc, but didn't like any of them and always tossed them. So power head rest was definitely the way to go for me. You can get it right were you want it with a touch of a button. Can't recommend it enough if you suffer from this problem any at all. 

So far I've watched a couple movies in it and a decent amount of movie demo. TR is fantastic in these 'Pembrokes', but does feel a little different than what I'm used to in my other recliner, and previous couch as well. It's kind of hard to explain, but it just feels tighter/snappier, and more responsive compared to my other. Overall I think I like it better for the most part. I really liked the TR in my other recliner as well, its just different in this chair as well as more damped/precise feeling. You'd think that would be a good thing, but I think you could get to damped IMO. I wouldn't want it anymore so than it is now. It really does feel just about perfect in this chair though. If I had to summarize it, I guess I could say it just feels a little more 'Pro Level' and refined feeling. And not just the TR. It even makes my bass sound tighter and cleaner, as at least its perceived that way. Crazy, but it does. I guess because TR goes hand in hand with what we hear, and can influence the way we perceive what we hear. At fist I was kind of like, hey what's going on here, then I was like, oh yeah I like that. It was almost as if I had changed out my subs or something. Again, more damped and precise sounding, not just feeling. Freaking craziness I say!!!  

All in all so far, I"m very, very pleased with the new Pembroke seats (or the one seat so far I should say)!!! Thanks @coolrda for being the guinea pig with these seats and recommending them. They are as good as you say!! I'm sure there is a lot of great choices out there, and I strongly considered a couple others, but I wouldn't hesitate at all in recommending these to anyone who wants some first rate HT seating and great TR to go with it.

So here are a few pics along the way. None of them in my room yet (its hard to get any good pics in there, I still don't have a light in there yet, besides what's in my closet where I have my PC, amps etc. Plus all the black velvet. I'll try to get some posted and more impressions when I get the other one setup and moved in hopefully in a couple of weeks. 

Two BIG boxes and a bunch of excitement ...










And more excitement ...my daughter just loves these chairs and VERY much approves!!  She gave each of here baby dolls a ride in it (she has a lot of them). Showed them all just how it all worked with recline, power head rest feature and lights ....LOL I really got a kick out of watching all this. 










And on with mounting the Dual BK's ...Yeah!! 













































Mounting them wasn't too bad. I checked out was I was dealing with down under, made a game plan, got everything I needed from Lowes, then got it on!!


----------



## Nalleh

Awsome dude, congrats 

I bet they are nice to relax in


----------



## coolrda

That seat looks vaguely familiar ;^). So glad to hear it. They will settle in. I have my share of back and neck issues and I can sit in these comfortably all day. The mounted BK’s look phenomenal. Enjoy them man!


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Awsome dude, congrats
> 
> I bet they are nice to relax in





coolrda said:


> That seat looks vaguely familiar ;^). So glad to hear it. They will settle in.* I have my share of back and neck issues and I can sit in these comfortably all day*. The mounted BK’s look phenomenal. Enjoy them man!


Thanks guys!!

That's saying a lot right there being able to set in them comfortably all day with some back and neck issues going on. Sorry to hear about the issues, but glad to hear your able to do that, nice!

So we all went to the movies today because my wife and daughter wanted to see "The Greatest Showman". It kind of surprised me just how good the movie itself was, phenomenal in a lot of ways actually. Besides not having much action and crazy bass, it seemed to have so much going for it (a lot of great messages, acting and soundtrack). I'm so used to seeing Hugh Jackman as Wolverine, it really impressed me to see him perform and act this well in another roll. And sang good too, who knew!? I'm not usually a fan of musicals, but they must have done this one right or something, because it didn't bother me in the least  My wife an daughter loved it, especially my wife. She said she can't wait to watch it again (when it's available) in my new room when I get the other chair in there. So that's cool 

Anyway, where I was going with this, is that it's been a very long time since I've been to a commercial theater. They installed leather recliners since the last time I was there, and the video actually looked quite nice on there giant screen. The recliners were surprisingly pretty comfy and had good support for the back, but didn't have power head rests (I know, how crazy of me to think they should lol). I already missed this feature since getting used to mine this week  

When we got back home, I had to go sit in mine again to compare. Oh man, I think I like mine even more than I did now, and even felt a little more soft and inviting (even though still firm) than I remembered. Maybe they've broke in just a little bit already


----------



## unretarded

I like how the buttkickers fit up in there onboard so to speak !




Looks like some thought went into that....


----------



## SBuger

unretarded said:


> I like how the buttkickers fit up in there onboard so to speak !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like some thought went into that....



I think I got real lucky on these chairs with the way the BK's fit in there. These Pembroke's really do accommodate them perfectly and couldn't have fit in there any better than the way they did (almost as if it was designed with the BK LFE in mind to fit 2 BK's in that spot)  How lucky is that ..... the BK LFE's are not small and they just so happened to clear that back bar at the top of the BK's by about 3/8-1/2" when in non recline mode and fit one just perfectly on each side of the recline guide bar. Then no interference at all when reclining to any position. 

Coolrda said the TR from his MA's weren't nearly as good under the arm rests, and he was right. They need to be up under the inner metal frame for far better feel. Under the arm rests, you don't feel it near as well in seat, and way more in the arm rests. With them under the inner metal frame, it saturates the whole seat WAY better. So I'm glad I didn't have to attach the BK's to the outer wood frame or armrest area and was able to attach them to the inner metal frame, as I'm sure it would have effected the BK's feel in a similar fashion as the MA's under the armrests did. 

It actually wasn't to bad at all to mount them in there and didn't require a ton of thought, but I've had some practice at this. This is my 3rd chair to mount the BK's into, so it gets a little easier each time, if there is a spot for them that is. So I kind of knew what I was looking for and hoping to find when I started looking for a place to mount them. I think this was the easiest chair to mount them in though. Being able to take the back off really helped and didn't have to do much modifying at all. The hardest part I think was drilling the holes in the angle iron that was already in place (two holes for 2 out of the 4 feet on each of the BK's). Then they just needed one more surface to mount the other 2 feet too as well for a level platform. So I just used a piece of red oak (was already the perfect size from Lowes) and used the holes that were already there in the metal frame to attach it. Painted it black, drilled two more sets of holes, bolted it to the frame, then bolted the other 2 feet for each BK to this and was done. The BK's had to be turned a certain direction to clear, and all was good 

Like you say, they kind of just fit up in there onboard so to speak, and right under my butt basically, which is what I was hoping for ...lucky, lucky, lucky


----------



## unretarded

So how they feeling comfort wise.........




I spend a absurd amount of time in mine, so I will be shopping carefully this time.


The front room has become defunct now and I do not think I have even sat down for 5 minutes on the front room couch in the last 6 months........I run everything thru the PJ now, so I spend the entire time when I am home in the theater chairs and I do not really see that changing in the future at all.




I even have plans for my next house that will basically eliminate the "Living room" in favor of a living theater......as that is the command center of the house now.


----------



## SBuger

unretarded said:


> So how they feeling comfort wise.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I spend a absurd amount of time in mine, so I will be shopping carefully this time.
> 
> 
> The front room has become defunct now and I do not think I have even sat down for 5 minutes on the front room couch in the last 6 months........I run everything thru the PJ now, so I spend the entire time when I am home in the theater chairs and I do not really see that changing in the future at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I even have plans for my next house that will basically eliminate the "Living room" in favor of a living theater......as that is the command center of the house now.



So far I'm really liking the comfort. Like I was saying on my first impressions about a week ago, they are a little more firm than what I'm used to sitting in, especially that single recliner I was using (that thing was super soft, too much so probably, but damn comfy). Also these are the first real HT chairs I've ever sat in, so I don't know what others would feel like in comparison. Probably somewhat similar though for the most part I would imagine. These Pembrokes seem very supportive in the right areas and not to firm but not to soft either. A real good mix I think, and I do find them very comfortable for a full length movie and then maybe a little more, but I haven't sat in them any longer than that before getting up. That said, I'm sure there are more comfortable HT chairs to be found. I was seriously considering a couple others that got fantastic reviews for comfort and just almost went with them, but something just kept bringing me back to these. I think the fact that @coolrda has them and said the comfort was really good (says he can spend all day in them, even with some neck and back issues - that says a lot I think), as well as saying the TR is excellent in them), ultimate made my decision for me  

Speaking of TR, he was right on the money with these seats. I think this might be my favorite part about these seats, is the feel of the TR. Like I was saying in one of my previous posts for initial impressions, the TR is different feeling than my other seats (recliner and couch). And a really good different. It's hard to describe other than just more refined and pro level feeling. It's tighter, quicker, cleaner and more detailed feeling, while at the same time feeling just as big or bigger and powerful, if that makes sense. It's crazy what it has done for my perception of the bass in my system. It really is like I changed out my gear in my system or something for better sounding and feeling bass, yet nothing has changed but the chair. Same VNF subs, same two BK LFE's and two MA per chair, same FF sub, same FR etc. It just feels and sounds like it stepped up my whole system a notch or two. Although I had high expectations and have wanted some cool HT chairs for a long time, I wasn't expecting this, so it was a very pleasant surprise. It does amaze me that a chair can make this kind of perceived difference on my system. 

I demoed the other day a few demos that I'm super familiar with, and just couldn't be happier with the way it sounded and felt. A few scenes from Jack the Giant Slayer, the New Pirates, the new Spiderman, and Batman Vs Superman. I just couldn't believe it actually. I've been real close before on getting it like I had ultimately envisioned, but I think I finally found it with the addition of these new seats. I know things can probably always be better, but I think I'm now the happiest I've been yet with the Bass and TR in my system. I've never mentioned it before anywhere on AVS, but I kind of have some troubles with my ears, and have for a long time. I've got some kind of traveling pain BS and currently resides in my ears and has for some time now unfortunately. So I have to be real careful or is just gets too painful. I've got to keep MV's in check (I rarely go over about -15mv, at least in this small room: -15mv is pretty loud in here), and have to keep my bass tuned tight and not overblown and boomy/bloaty (that hurts my ears as well), along with keeping the highs toned down a bit (I usually knock the treble down a couple db with the tone controls on all channels). One upside of this though I guess, is that it does force me to try to keep my bass tuned tight without a bunch of bloat and peakiness. I think (or I know) this is why I am such a fan of the Very Near Field subs (especially the one directly behind me) as well as both the BK LFE's and MAs all combined together. It allows me to the get slam/impact and crazy TR that I crave, without having to listen real loud to get it and not make the pain worse in my ears than it can be sometimes. Fortunately, I've found a way that I can still get my bass and HT fix and not hurt my ears too bad  

So anyway back to the chairs, if you spend an absurd amount of time in yours like you say you do, I think you would be very happy with these if you like a firmer (but not to overly firm) feeling supportive type chair. Personally I think they are pretty darn comfy (and getting more so as they settle in somewhat already), but I'm sure comfier ones can be found if you prefer a softer, more plush swallow your whole body, sink in to total softness feel type of chair. How do you like your seats now as far as comfort goes? Do you like extra soft/plush, pretty firm, or something kind of in between?

On another note, I cant believe I did it, even though I shouldn't have, I went ahead and ordered two more MAs and two more BK LFEs for the other chair, along with another BK amp (used). Cant get a brand new BK amp for a long time for what ever reason. I almost ordered an inuke6000 (an maybe I should have for the MAs), but I'm perfectly happy with the BK amps for a lot of reasons. I'm almost not looking forward to moving that other chair in though and recalibrating and arranging subs a little bit because of how happy I am with the single chair in there now. But, I do need another chair in there. Wife is wanting to watch movies with me, and my lifting buddy at the gym is wanting to come check out my system and watch some flicks. So I really do need at least two chairs, that I can hopefully get tuned decently in this square (mode challenging) room. 

So anyway, cant believe I ordered the MA, BK's and amp instead of an Atmos setup with two more sets of KEF q100 speakers and middle of the road AVR to run it. I could have probably did it for about the same price. That said, I cant stand the thought of having another chair in here and it not loaded with MAs and BKs  I guess you could say, I'm a bass and TR (priority) in both seats first kind of guys, since I consider it the foundation and most responsible for the best experience possible. Make no mistake though, I soooooo want Atmos too. It'll happen eventually


----------



## biga6761

Just wanted to swing by and say I see what your doing Bug and I love it man. Very nice choice on the seating and great work getting the oh so nessacery Buttkickers mounted. Very clean and neat solution. Glad to hear how much you are digging what the new seats bring to your experience. I think it's cool that the new seats can add that little something extra that you found they add. Seating is so important for so many reasons and I'm glad your investment is paying off so well.

Also read about the tactile upgrade coming your way in the form of more Buttkickers and MA's for the 2nd seat. I would feel remiss if I didn't at least mention the temptation you are going to face once the new TT gear comes in to try adding them to your seat instead of the 2nd one. I'm here to say, do it man, I have always wondered what 4 Buttkicker LFE's and 4 MA's would feel like on one chair and I think you(like myself) like TT's just enough to try before resigning them to their permanent home in the 2nd seat. Before you say hell no I'm crazy, just think of the tactile headroom, never bottom a Buttkicker again, even on the biggest of effects under 10hz. And do I even need to mention 4 MA's, I mean come on. And just think you could have a chance at shaking your brain hard enough to hallucinate or even find a new level of tactile glory that could potentially negate eating or even sex. LMAO

All joking aside, you are one step closer brother and as always making it look great every step of the way homey. Keep up the awesome work. I look forward to your progress and write up of installing new TT's. I'm definitely interested in whether or not you find the new MA's stronger than the old ones or if your old ones are actually working properly or not like you suspected.

Nice decision too. I know I pushed for you to go Atmos as soon as possible but I also agree with your decision on the TT's and that the foundation takes priority to us card carrying Bassheadaholics. Haha You really couldn't go wrong either way.
Keep us posted brother, in the eyes of this humble hillbilly you're, as usual, killin it.


----------



## unretarded

Thanks !




 With the new MA`s on the way, you will be able to solve the question if something was wrong with the MA`s you have now. I remember you talking about something did not seem quite right with them.


----------



## SBuger

unretarded said:


> Thanks !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the new MA`s on the way, you will be able to solve the question if something was wrong with the MA`s you have now. I remember you talking about something did not seem quite right with them.


No prob, bro!

Yep, you remembered right, stay tuned and we'll see what the new ones bring in comparison. This will definitely solve the question I had about if something is going on with them. I'm hoping there will be a difference with the new ones. An easy fix if so. It may just be that I'm just so used to the extreme power that these BKs can generate in the 10-27 hz range though, and the MAs can't touch them in this area when it comes to brute power, IDK.


----------



## SBuger

biga6761 said:


> Just wanted to swing by and say I see what your doing Bug and I love it man. Very nice choice on the seating and great work getting the oh so nessacery Buttkickers mounted. Very clean and neat solution. Glad to hear how much you are digging what the new seats bring to your experience. I think it's cool that the new seats can add that little something extra that you found they add. Seating is so important for so many reasons and I'm glad your investment is paying off so well.
> 
> Also read about the tactile upgrade coming your way in the form of more Buttkickers and MA's for the 2nd seat. I would feel remiss if I didn't at least mention the temptation you are going to face once the new TT gear comes in to try adding them to your seat instead of the 2nd one. I'm here to say, do it man, I have always wondered what 4 Buttkicker LFE's and 4 MA's would feel like on one chair and I think you(like myself) like TT's just enough to try before resigning them to their permanent home in the 2nd seat. Before you say hell no I'm crazy, just think of the tactile headroom, never bottom a Buttkicker again, even on the biggest of effects under 10hz. And do I even need to mention 4 MA's, I mean come on. And just think you could have a chance at shaking your brain hard enough to hallucinate or even find a new level of tactile glory that could potentially negate eating or even sex. LMAO
> 
> All joking aside, you are one step closer brother and as always making it look great every step of the way homey. Keep up the awesome work. I look forward to your progress and write up of installing new TT's. I'm definitely interested in whether or not you find the new MA's stronger than the old ones or if your old ones are actually working properly or not like you suspected.
> 
> Nice decision too. I know I pushed for you to go Atmos as soon as possible but I also agree with your decision on the TT's and that the foundation takes priority to us card carrying Bassheadaholics. Haha You really couldn't go wrong either way.
> Keep us posted brother, in the eyes of this humble hillbilly you're, as usual, killin it.


Hey thanks Biga, I appreciate it!!

I can always count on you for support, a good laugh, and to nudge me a little further in ways to try and push the envelope a little more in this HT craziness  About the 4 MAs and 4 BK LFE's per seat - could be absolutely freaking insane! Maybe even enough to make me hallucinate in a new found level of tactile glory and potentially negate eating or even sex like you say ..LOL!!!!

Speaking of, me and the wife had a 3 day get away this weekend for her birthday. My folks watched our daughter for us while we took a trip and stayed at a really cool resort. They usually always try to do that for us on her birthday and anniversary every year, which is very cool of them. Probably a little more info than you want to know here, but hey you brought up eating and sex  (definitely a couple of the finer things in life IMO), the food was beyond amazing (we love to eat fantastic food, who doesn't right!?) and well, the other probably just goes without saying with a good getaway and good eats (that can be an aphrodisiac in itself)  Anyway where I'm going with this is, we were talking about how euphoric these two things can be and I had to add in that great HT bass and TR can rank right up there with it and be very euphoric as well, and is probably one of the main reasons I'm so addicted to it  Who knows, maybe with 4 and 4 per chair, it'll even go beyond comparison :grin: If it does surpass, I wont tell her that though, I might be in a bit of trouble LOL 

Seriously though, it really could be spectacular on a whole new level, then again, maybe not since 2 and 2 per can be pretty crazy and the whole diminishing returns thing once you get to a certain point. But I will say that going from 1 BK LFE to 2 makes a VERY noticeable difference in feel, even when only running 1 BK turned up to the level that 2 together can produce (said another way - two at a little lower levels to make the same level as one turned up a bit more). The same is true with going from 1 Crowson MA to 2 MAs. I tried both the BK's only going from 1 to 2 and also the same with the MA's only. Big difference in fullness and power and the feeling it creates. The same goes when combining the MAs with the BK's. I tried this as well. Partially because I was initially thinking about just running either the MAs only or the BK's only with these new seats or splitting up my 2 MAs and 2 BK's between the two seats, giving each seat 1 MA and 1 BK LFE. But no, too big of a performance hit and diminished feeling they create doing it that way. 

So with all these different configs with the MA's and BKs, I did quite a lot of subjective testing on hard tile floor and carpet over pad (I did do some objective as well, but way more subjective). I'd step up through tones starting in single digits up through about 30hz, as well as some of my favorite movie demo clips. This will let you know right quick what you like best and what is king (along with there differences, minor and major). Granted, like you brought up about what I was saying before, my MA's may be lagging a little compared to some of the other guys (ie coolrda, Nalleh, etc) for whatever reason (maybe a bit faulty or something not quite right with them etc), IDK. That said, the MA's do still feel great, its just that my 2 BK's will stomp all over my 2 MAs when it comes to power and a certain physical feel they can induce. I really do hope that the new ones will have more power and be closer to my BK's. That said, the two combined (BK's and MAs) are most definitely better with both running together, whether or not my MA's may or may not be performing like they should be. 

So, like you and @unretarded say, I'll be real interested as well to see if the new ones feel any different and have more power. I've almost boxed them up a couple of times and sent them in to have Randy check them just to make sure everything was working properly with them. Now with the new ones coming, it'll make it very easy for me to tell right away. It's not like the 2 MA's I have now are bad, they still feel great, especially on the upper end over about 27hz, they just don't come close in the power and feel what the BK LFE's generate when pushed to a little higher levels (or even at normal levels, but especially higher levels) in that 10-27hz range. But they do feel very realistic like a sub, I'll give'm that. I just hope the new one will be closer in power to the BK LFE's in that 10-27hz. We'll find out soon. Would be a real easy fix and a win win if the new ones are more powerful and all I had to do was send in my older ones for a tune or whatever. That said, even it that's just how the MA's should feel, I'm perfectly happy with the way the two combine together. 

So to give you a bit of an example of what I'm talking about between the way the 2 BK LFE's by themselves feel compared to the way the 2 MAs by themselves feel, here is one of many scenes in a lot of the better bass movies that really drives this difference home for me. Take this time stamp in Batman VS Superman where Ben Affleck is driving that car through the city in the first chapter, right where he drives through the fire (Time Stamp: 6:00 through 6:06). I ran VibSensor with both BK LFE's only and both MAs only (no subs this time in the mix). This is about where I would run them listening at about -15mv with subs about 8-10db hot with no DEQ since I run my BKs and MAs through my Oppo and control their intensity with the volume control (about 85 percent out of 100). The two graphs look way more similar than different, granted the BK's graph is a touch higher in areas, but not much. Even though they look very similar in the graphs for the most part, the difference in feel that the BK's produce compared to the MAs, is pretty drastic. Not really the higher end above 30-35hz, but lower. Subjectively, the BK's are crazy and kind of make me squirm in my seat and gives me a panicky type of feeling (panic might not sound so good, but its awesome) with a very cool internal type of pressure feel, and kind of makes me feel it somewhat sharply in my chest as well (by the way the BK's movement is by design I guess), even though this is not midbass. The feeling to me is crazy and kind of freaky, and I absolutely love it. I can not get this with the MAs, no matter how high I turn them up (just little more to match the BK's graph, or even higher). Because the intensity level where I did this objective and subjective testing, they still had more in the tank that they could give and can be cranked up more to try to get that same feel, but to no avail. Also my subs don't quite give me as an intense of feeling that the BK's do either on scenes like this, although if I turn them up and run them hot enough, its closer. Now all of them combined, is best, but I'm only comparing the MAs to the BK's here. Also of note here, is that only 1 BK LFE turned up enough to make up the difference from what 2 at a little lower level would give, wont give me this feel either (or just barely maybe), but two ..oh man! So that said, maybe 4 MA's per chair would ..hmmmm, but damn that is getting expensive for one seat  

Here are the two graphs in comparison for that BvsS Time Stamp (6:00-6) with the VibSensor using a 5lb bag of rice on the phone in recline mode (this was on my old chair, but still very similar feeling and looking in my new seat, besides some of the differences I was describing earlier between the feel between the old and new seat - but still more similar than different). In these readings on the old recliner, they read a little higher between 10-15hz in comparison to the frequencies above, but that's ok since both the MA's and the BK's by themselves have this (a bit of a peak in my TR response in the 10-15hz region). 

2 MA's only per the one recliner:









2 BK LFE's only per recliner: 









IDK, we'll see what the new MA's feel like compared to the new ones this week. You guys give this time stamp a go on your system and see what it feel like. It's pretty bad ass feeling if you can get the TR intense enough.

I'll definitely try 4 MAs per seat, that'll be an easy test since the MA's are so easy slip under the legs. Now the BK's, not so easy. I really would like to try 4 BK's per seat as well, just to see, since going from 1 to 2 made such a big difference (I'm afraid this may ruin me as well though - damn you Biga!! haha ) ...nah just kidding. Also like you say, more headroom, because there are some hardcore scenes I can bottom out my dual BK's if I'm not careful. I may not be able to get two more in these seats though. I felt like getting two in there was pushing it. We'll see. 

Anyway, thanks for swinging by and your thoughts on it all! It's always a pleasure reading you posts. You make me feel like I might actually be doing something right with all this stuff, at least for a couple junkies like us LOL


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## biga6761

SBuger said:


> !
> 
> Speaking of, me and the wife had a 3 day get away this weekend for her birthday. My folks watched our daughter for us while we took a trip and stayed at a really cool resort. They usually always try to do that for us on her birthday and anniversary every year, which is very cool of them. Probably a little more info than you want to know here, but hey you brought up eating and sex  (definitely a couple of the finer things in life IMO), the food was beyond amazing (we love to eat fantastic food, who doesn't right!?) and well, the other probably just goes without saying with a good getaway and good eats (that can be an aphrodisiac in itself)  Anyway where I'm going with this is, we were talking about how euphoric these two things can be and I had to add in that great HT bass and TR can rank right up there with it and be very euphoric as well, and is probably one of the main reasons I'm so addicted to it  Who knows, maybe with 4 and 4 per chair, it'll even go beyond comparison :grin: If it does surpass, I wont tell her that though, I might be in a bit of trouble LOL


Hey brother thanks for getting back to me and with such an awesome post. I'll have a bit more time later to touch on all points but thought I would take just a min to hit on something else we have in common. 
I spent yesterday catering to a birthday girl myself. My wife's B-day is Feb.4th. What are the odds we both married an Aquarius? And have a deep affinity for TT's and eyeball blurring Bass? Gotta be bordering on a 1,000,000,000 to 1, for realz.
I'm never allowed to forget (especially on her B-day) that I was a chef in my former life and spent a good bit of the day yesterday preparing a 5 course dinner as part of her "gift"(every year) then moved to the bedroom so the "real gifts" could commence. Lol fortunately I also get to enjoy eating with her(both times) and probably get more out of the "bedroom" portion of the "gift" than she does. Hehe don't tell mine either! LMAO(BTW totally agree on the TR euphoria and it being an aphrodisiac in itself. Oh if our ladies only knew we rate the 2 in the same category, or close anyway. Lol) Can you say CUT OFF? ROFL

Kidding aside, glad to hear you had such a nice time on your lady's special day as I did and got some time without the rest of the family. It can be tough to find alone time together that's not in the middle of the night most of the year and I'm glad you had those 3 days, as I'm sure you were too. Wish your lady a Happy belated Birthday from the wife and I. Wouldn't it be cool to combine our lady's B-day's one year and do a trip together(well maybe not for the ladies, Lol).

Now back to business:
I'll get some VS work done today or tomorrow and get something typed up here to compare. I'm very interested in the BvS clip you outlined in your post and will put it to the test ASAP. I'm considering adding at least 1 or maybe 2 more Buttkicker LFE's to my couch instead of MA's simply because of cost. This makes me quite interested in what you choose to do in your "on one chair" experiments. Meaning I'm very curious to see what you decide to try with the new TT's before adding them to the 2nd chair. I really want the MA's but could come close to adding 4 more Butt's for the cost of 2 MA's. Like you, I can bottom the Butt's below 10hz pretty easy and between 10-15hz it's possible also with the right material so finding the most 20hz and under headroom is my main goal and if I can get more "trampoline" effect at the same time all the better. 
Which would add more to the experience for the $ is my biggest question i guess and sadly I'm not sure there is a way to know without ponying up and trying it. In looking at your VS graphs it's easy to see looking at the Y and X plots that there is a definite difference in presentation between the LFE's and MA's but what is not clear is how much of that difference would be felt seat-of-the-pants.
We shall see after taxes are back and I can pay off a few things that it took to get my new room up and running, what I'm able to do. I'm also trying to replace my IB Inuke's with a better sub amp in the form of a SpeakerPower, IPR2 7500 or ProLite 7.5 and this will def eat up some cash. By then I think you will have made a bit more headway as will I.(Haha get busy over there homes, I need dat data!) I too will have made more VS progress by that time and will be able to make a more educated purchase.
More to come my friend, from both of us it would appear. Be back soon. Thanks again Bug for your time and reply.


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## SBuger

^^^

Wow, 5 course meal ..that's impressive and I bet she thought so too!  

Well my wife's birthday was actually Jan 19th (Capricorn) and we just did the get away a couple weeks later this time because of timing issues, but the birthdays are close enough  So Happy B-day to yours as well! Yeah a combined trip would be cool, but yeah they'd probably tire of the all the HT talk pretty quick LOL

Good stuff man!! 

About you VSing and trying out the BvsS clip. Nice, I think your system will crush it and give you all kinds of TR feel (subjectively and with VS graphs) with your 8 x18 IB system, Full Marty etc and 2 BK's!!! That whole BvsS intro is killer IMO, not just that one Time Stamp (although that one is fun and intense for sure). There are LOTS of Time Stamps all throughout that whole movie actually that are killer that feel real similar to that one and dig deep as well. One of my favorite movies for demo for sure, and never gets old to me. They did a whole lot right with this soundtrack IMO. I wish they were all this good.

I hear ya on the cost of the MA's, they are not cheap. You could do 4 BK's for the price of 2 MA's. This crossed my mine as well, but since I already have 2 MA's and really like what they do (even if mine may not be performing up to par), they combine well. If you added 2-4 more BK's on your couch, I'm sure it'd be crazy to say the least, that is if you like the feel of your 2 BK LFE's that you already have. 

Also yes, below about 10hz the BK's are pretty worthless IMO. This is where the MA's most definitely put the smack down on the BK's, but the BK's are monsters from 10 or 12 to 20-25ish, but can bottom with the right material when pushed hard like you say. So more headroom under 20hz is always welcome. I'm sure an army of BK's would solve this problem for sure though and would probably give even more of that awesome 'trampoline' effect as well. Man I do love that Trampoline effect. The trampoline effect is the strongest feeling in that 18-25hz area, whereas under gives more of that wobble and being pulled down though the bottom of you chair feel, especially around 10-15hz. At least for me it is. 

Speaking of that 10-15hz pull you down though your chair (bottom of chair dropping out from under you) feel, here is one for you to try as well. One of my all time Favorites for this feeling. Mad Max Fury Road. Time Stamp: 43:56-44.06. It's pretty crazy and will even trip my amps sometimes if I get real crazy with it. A while back, I think I VS'd this one at -10mv with sub about 8db hot + the BK's and MAs. But the BK's are most responsible for that feeling I was describing. Give it a go as well as the BvsS clip and see what it feels like. 










Also FWIW, I've never had my 2 BK's bottom out on this MMFR clip or the BvsS clip. Or for either movie in any section the whole way though, at least at the levels I listen at. There is a couple places in Hellboy II that will do it though. Interestingly enough, on my couch downstairs, these couple of scenes in HBII would not bottom them out. But my couch had a TON of flex, and therefor didn't have to be pushed quite as hard to get the same feel in these frequencies responsible for this.

So for you, not sure which would add more to the experience for the $, I guess it would probably depend on whether or not you really like the feel of your BK's. I really like both, but probably prefer the BK's overall because of their brute power in that 10-25hz range, but may feel differently if in fact my MA's may not be performing up to par and then try ones that are. If that the case, then it may go to the MA's, because the MA's really do feel amazing. It may come down to you having to try them in house in your setup to know for sure, and then take advantage of the 30 day money back thing with the multiple MA's if you don't prefer them to the multiple BK's OR send back the BK's to Amazon and pay the shipping and keep the MA's. A big upfront cost but may be the only way to know for sure when it's time to cross that bridge, besides going on what I say that I like. But I'll try to give you as good of info as I can from my experiences with the two and what I like best about each. 

As far as the Y and X axis goes on the two in my BvsS graph, the Y looks the most different to me (the side to side movement). The X is forward and backward and the Z is Up and Down. This is with the phone oriented with the top of phone pointed towards the seat back and laying down flat on the seat cushion, butted up against the seat back with the 5lb bag of rice on top of the phone to keep the phone in contact with the seat. So I don't know how much difference that Y axis is making. Maybe a little because on the BK's its about 10db stronger. But I kind of think that's not it. I think the X and Z are the most important. That said, I'm sure if all are more closely overlaid, the stronger and better the TR will be.


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## biga6761

Once again what a stellar, useful post my friend. Thanks for the graph and time stamps. I just headed in the house for the night but will be back out in the theater in a couple hours and plan to start the morning off with some VS work. I just put the Buttkickers on a different amp(Crown Xls1500) and put them on thier own input of the balanced MiniDsp for more control over their eq. Before I had them on their own channel of the Inuke 6kdsp that started power cycling this week and when I moved them to the Crown I ran them through the same input as the MBM's. This applied the same global eq to the Buttkickers that all the subs have on them, but now they will get an unaltered signal and I can eq them separately. I currenty have a 3db LS12 Low Shelf on them then a 10db LS6 from 20hz down to 10hz and have them crossed over at 35hz on a 36db slope. 
The only issue is with the Inuke I had basically unlimited delay to dial them in but now with the MiniDsp unless I loop ch.1 output to ch.2 inputs I'm limited to 7.5ms delay and with my MLP 14ft from the IB it's not quite enough. I don't prefer to do the loop on the Mini because it attenuates the signal a total of 12db (6db per input) and that is hard to get back with boost without pushing the Dsp too hard, especially at the ULF frequencies were dealing in with the TT's. I may have to get creative to make it work best because the bridged Crown seems to have more power down low and drives the Butt's better than the Inuke. So I'm going to use VS to tweak things more in a couple hours after I grab a quick nap. I'll report back when I have some data and we can see where I stand. Thanks again, as always your a great resource of info and experience brother Bug, simply priceless.
I'm also have Dunkirk to watch for the second time and will prob try and VS a few scenes from it as well. Fun morning ahead.

By the way man we were close on our ladys B-days. Thought we both had Aquarius' there for a min but close enough I guess. Lol yea if we were to try a couples trip we would prob need to do a G2G first and get a bit of the HT talk over with. Haha can you imagine having the ladies with us for our first meeting, they would sew our lips shut or kill us both one. Lmao

Sent from my SM-J727T1 using Tapatalk


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## SBuger

biga6761 said:


> Once again what a stellar, useful post my friend. Thanks for the graph and time stamps. I just headed in the house for the night but will be back out in the theater in a couple hours and plan to start the morning off with some VS work. I just put the Buttkickers on a different amp(Crown Xls1500) and put them on thier own input of the balanced MiniDsp for more control over their eq. Before I had them on their own channel of the Inuke 6kdsp that started power cycling this week and when I moved them to the Crown I ran them through the same input as the MBM's. This applied the same global eq to the Buttkickers that all the subs have on them, but now they will get an unaltered signal and I can eq them separately. I currenty have a 3db LS12 Low Shelf on them then a 10db LS6 from 20hz down to 10hz and have them crossed over at 35hz on a 36db slope.
> The only issue is with the Inuke I had basically unlimited delay to dial them in but now with the MiniDsp unless I loop ch.1 output to ch.2 inputs I'm limited to 7.5ms delay and with my MLP 14ft from the IB it's not quite enough. I don't prefer to do the loop on the Mini because it attenuates the signal a total of 12db (6db per input) and that is hard to get back with boost without pushing the Dsp too hard, especially at the ULF frequencies were dealing in with the TT's. I may have to get creative to make it work best because the bridged Crown seems to have more power down low and drives the Butt's better than the Inuke. So I'm going to use VS to tweak things more in a couple hours after I grab a quick nap. I'll report back when I have some data and we can see where I stand. Thanks again, as always your a great resource of info and experience brother Bug, simply priceless.
> I'm also have Dunkirk to watch for the second time and will prob try and VS a few scenes from it as well. Fun morning ahead.
> 
> By the way man we were close on our ladys B-days. Thought we both had Aquarius' there for a min but close enough I guess. Lol yea if we were to try a couples trip we would prob need to do a G2G first and get a bit of the HT talk over with. Haha can you imagine having the ladies with us for our first meeting, they would sew our lips shut or kill us both one. Lmao
> 
> Sent from my SM-J727T1 using Tapatalk


Hey thanks, glad to help if I can. Glad you find my posts useful and all my ramblings aren't totally useless  Hey you might try running your BK's though your Philips BR player if it has a subout, and set it up that way so you will have more delay control (and untouched as well), then just control the intensity with the volume on the remote and do what you want with them though the miniDSP. That's how I do mine on the Oppo. It wont be controlled with the volume on your AVR (tied to it) so you might not like this if your volumes are all over the place, but I actually kind of prefer it this way and is easier to control the intensity on the fly if need be. This might not work so good with your Xbox though, IDK. Just thought I'd mention it. You may hate it setup this way, or maybe not.


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## SBuger

So, I'm VERY pleased to report that my new MA's came in and as I suspected, my current 2 I'm using do in fact lag behind the new ones a fair amount. The new ones are stronger across the board and fuller feeling, especially down low. So YAY!!!!!!!!!! This is what I was hoping for, because I knew they had to have more in them. I sent these older two of mine back to Crowson today, and he's going to take a look at them. I hope he can work his magic and get'm fixed up to match the new ones. They still felt pretty good, but the new ones smoke'm by a fair amount. Nota total night and day diff, but enough to make a very noticeable difference, especially down low and are now giving me that feeling that I was talking about with the BK's 

So, @biga6761 - I take back what I said about me probably preferring the BK's over the MAs. They are bad ass and probably just as powerful now as the BK's and are better under 10hz for sure, at least with what little bit I messed with them today. That said, I still really like my BK's a LOT and will probably still run them in combination with the MA's, especially since I've already got two mounted in my one chair and working on the other (no way I can get 4 BK's in there, I thought I could maybe, but don't think I'm going to be able to fit them in there to try it out) So sorry about, I know you were curious, as was I. I'll try 4 MAs per seat though, just to check it out and should be easy. 

Also, the combo of the MA's and BK's gives me a lot more headroom ran together and doesn't heat up the MA's near as much with them run a little lower with them combined (they give me 8-10db more headroom this way). That is the one area that I do wish the MA's were better at. They will get damn hot fast if pushed hard for very long on some of these 5 star monster bass movies, TIH, MMFA etc. They'll go into protect if they get too hot, but still I don't want them doing that. Maybe that's what happened to mine to many times, IDK. Enough MA'ss and I'm sure this wouldn't be a problem though, just expensive as hell. 

I'll have do some more experimenting though when I get my other MAs back, hopefully working like these new ones. Who knows, I may end up only wanting the MAs running and prefer only them and not the combination when it comes to the overall feel that is created (and forgo some headroom maybe until I can afford more MA's if I still feel like I need it), we'll see. 

Anyway, I'm very excited that the MA's are as good as I knew they should be


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## unretarded

Nice !!!!




I wish the cheap clark silvers,160 bucks, went as low as the Crowsons, they stop at 15hz.......well they don't stop, they are rated to 15, they will go lower but overheat burn up.


To get the 5hz rated Clarks is about the same as the costs of the Crowson.......so either way, it costs to play.....




I hope they take care of you on the old Crowsons......not sure what crowson has, but the clarks are rebuildable, which kinda sold on them to try out.


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## SBuger

unretarded said:


> Nice !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish the cheap clark silvers,160 bucks, went as low as the Crowsons, they stop at 15hz.......well they don't stop, they are rated to 15, they will go lower but overheat burn up.
> 
> 
> To get the 5hz rated Clarks is about the same as the costs of the Crowson.......so either way, it costs to play.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope they take care of you on the old Crowsons......not sure what crowson has, but the clarks are rebuildable, which kinda sold on them to try out.


Hey thanks! I'm betting (hoping) that'll he'll get'em working like they should be. 

Yeah I wish the top end wasn't so expensive. That said though, I do think the good ones are worth every penny for what they add to a HT system though, especially if your into TR. 

I'm sure the top end Platimum Clarks that go down to 5hz are pretty amazing. IIRC, that guy (N8DOGG I believe) that runs a giant stack of subs right behind his couch runs the Platimums and really likes them. I think I also remember him saying that he's tried them all before as well (Crowsons, BKs, etc) and ended up with the Clarks.


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## SBuger

So today I messed with the 2 new MA's a little bit and combined with the BK's as well. Daughter was home from school today not feeling well, but got a chance to play with these new bad boys for 10-15 minutes or so. I just left the subs and sound totally off and used only MAs and BK's since I didn't want to be blasting SPL's. Easy to do since I'm running them though my Oppo. 

Holy Hell Fire, the combo of the two (now with the MA's working like they should) is pretty insane feeling . I got the levels of the two adjusted a little better with each other since the MA's have more power now, as well as set my BK's up a little different in the MiniDSP. After this short session and 3-4 runs though Batman vs Superman in the city in chapter 1, I felt like my insides got worked over pretty good. I felt kinda frazzled and like I needed an anti-acid or something from being shook up so much LOL

I know this type of thing may not be for everyone, but if you LOVE Tactile Response for these movie soundtracks and want to try to push the TR envelope even further than you already do, I highly recommend combining 2 MAs and 2 BK LFE's per seat. Kind of ridiculous having two of each per seat, but the MA's and BK's compliment each other very well IMO with their differences (plus a lot of headroom) and can be pretty vicious, creating a feeling way more than just shake somehow. Each by themselves are great, but combined they really seem to reinforce that seat dropping out from under me, an internal kind of pressure from the intensity, and a panicky type of feel I was talking about earlier (plus some things I don't even know how to describe). I'm sure 4 MA's per seat or even 4 BK LFE's per seat would do something real similar, but two of each on one seat will defiantly do it (at least for me). I cant really image needing anymore TR power than this (well at least in the 10-50hz range), because I still had some left in the tank and that was plenty.

@biga6761 - you may want to eventually try this combo if you can, but I'm sure your couch loaded with BK LFE's would be pretty crazy too!


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## SBuger

unretarded said:


> I hope they take care of you on the old Crowsons......not sure what crowson has, but the clarks are rebuildable, which kinda sold on them to try out.


YES!!! ...Randy Crowson totally fixed my 2 older Crowson MAs that weren't performing the way they needed to be. They now feel just like the 2 brand new ones, nice and powerful! Even better, he covered it all under warranty and even took care of the shipping. He's the man! I'm VERY happy with the MAs and his service! 

I guess the Urethane Tube Springs went bad on one side of the MAs. He said he had never encountered this problem before and took care of it. He said it may have been from uneven pressure or something on my couch that I was using them under downstairs. Whatever it was, they are like brand new now! Oh yeah, he also put new hard grippe pads on the top where they cover the magnet (the surface that comes into contact with the bottom of your seating frame). They had slid down and off to the side about 3/-8 to 1/2" or so over time. WooHoo ...happy dance :grin:


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## unretarded

Nice!.......:d


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## Seilerbird

As a retired electrician I get horrified when I see someone use wirenuts on stranded wire. Yes it is legal, but a very poor choice when used in an area with vibration a possibility. The vibrations will eventually cause the wirenut to fall off. This is why wirenuts are a poor choice in a car. You really should get a crimping tool and connect them so there is no chance it will ever come apart. Or at least use electrical tape on the existing connections.


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## SBuger

Seilerbird said:


> As a retired electrician I get horrified when I see someone use wirenuts on stranded wire. Yes it is legal, but a very poor choice when used in an area with vibration a possibility. The vibrations will eventually cause the wirenut to fall off. This is why wirenuts are a poor choice in a car. You really should get a crimping tool and connect them so there is no chance it will ever come apart. Or at least use electrical tape on the existing connections.


Hey thanks for the tip sir! I guess I've gotten lucky the last couple of years running these things with just wire nuts, they haven't ever come loose yet (at least not that I know of), but could happen at some point. I should probably at least use some electrical tape like you say.

I now need to run 4 Crowson MA's wired in parallel to the amp, which will be Five 12 gauge wires total in each wire nut (4 + the 1 main wire coming from the amp). The way I have it now for 2 MAs (Buttkickers LFEs are wired like this as well) in parallel, its only Three 12 gauge wires per wire nut. 

Instead of using wire nuts for multiple 12 gauge wires, what do you suggest for a housing to crimp these, pig tail sleeves like this maybe (3rd solution down) on this page here? : http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/remotes-cables-accessories-tweaks/5808-comprehensive-guide-splicing-speaker-wire.html


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## unretarded

While I am lazy and do not do it all the time, I have done a few hotrod projects, I like to solder the wires....which is a super easy and cheap and never fails, then squirt dielectric grease on the connection then slip a piece of shrink tubing over the top.




I hate butt connectors for soft speaker wire as it always cuts the wire, I strip the plastic off them and solder then shrink tube if I do use them at all............I like option 3 for a easy way......you could squirt a little dielectric grease up in there before crimping just for good measure........




Just my opinion........the wiring guy might have a much better option though


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## Seilerbird

SBuger said:


> Hey thanks for the tip sir! I guess I've gotten lucky the last couple of years running these things with just wire nuts, they haven't ever come loose yet (at least not that I know of), but could happen at some point. I should probably at least use some electrical tape like you say.
> 
> I now need to run 4 Crowson MA's wired in parallel to the amp, which will be Five 12 gauge wires total in each wire nut (4 + the 1 main wire coming from the amp). The way I have it now for 2 MAs (Buttkickers LFEs are wired like this as well) in parallel, its only Three 12 gauge wires per wire nut.
> 
> Instead of using wire nuts for multiple 12 gauge wires, what do you suggest for a housing to crimp these, pig tail sleeves like this maybe (3rd solution down) on this page here? : http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/remotes-cables-accessories-tweaks/5808-comprehensive-guide-splicing-speaker-wire.html


That is a great article. He agrees with me. Don't use wire nuts on stranded wire. The crimping tool and either the butt splices or crimp sleeves is what I would use.


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## SBuger

Cool, thanks for the info and reply on this guys!


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## SBuger

A bit of an update here. I've got a few new cool Home Theater things going on. I took some pics but they are pretty crappy from the cell phone (with flash since I still don't have lights put up in my room yet besides what comes from the closet/equipment and PC room and from the hallway when the door is opened. When I get lights, I'll try to take some better pics and get'm posted. But for now, this will have to do  

First, I got a new black shag rug that almost covers almost the entire 13'x13' light colored carpet floor. I cut around the chairs since I didn't want them sitting on it and used that to help fill in the very back sides a little bit. All that is left un-covered is a tiny little bit behind the VNF subs right behind the two new chairs. 

Wow, it made a real nice difference in the total immersion thing, even with everything else already covered in black velvet. Helped with a little better PQ too. With a bright image on the screen, it would light up the floor with light colored carpet more than I thought it did. I was rolling out a piece of 4' x 13' black velvet when I would take the time to do it, but became a pain in be butt after a while rolling it in and out. It worked great fort he part in front of the screen when I would do it, but if I left it there it would get all messed up and wrinkled by walking on it since my door is up front and have to walk on it to get out. Now with the rug, it can just stay down and no more messing with that 

It's pretty crazy how black this rug is in comparison to the SY black velvet. Not quite as ultra black and light absorbing, but I can hardly tell that at all when the movie is going. I can just barely see it if I really try hard during bright scenes. But I sit so close to the screen that I don't really see it anyway directly in front of the screen. Where I am able to see floor is up front on the sides and peripheral version, but not anymore. It just looks pitch black everywhere. I can't really tell where the floor, ceiling or walls begin or end when the movie is going, which is awesome and what I was going for. All I can really see from my peripherals to straight ahead is the screen. Kind of freaky but way cool for immersion. Makes me feel right there in the movie since I sit so close and no distractions. Well, I take that back about no distractions, I can still see my feet, legs and a bit of the legs rests when reclined if I don't cover them up with a piece of black velvet. Sometimes it bothers me and sometimes it doesn't if I don't cover them up.

Here's a couple pics of the black shag rug. I had to take the door and speakers off to get the rug in. As you can probably see, that thing is black, almost as black as the velvet, even with strong light from the hallway shining on both. Plus it's pretty plush with shag and makes the room feel pretty cozy   A cozy black pit HaHa!!

A few pics to show this ...



















The rug only goes 10' back form the very front wall, but I've bee using the pieces that I cut out under the chair to fill in the back part where the rug ends in the pic



















So next up, I finally got my other Pembroke HT seat moved up into my room to make two  It feels good to finally have two chairs in there, except I'm not quite dead center of the screen anymore for the ultimate sweet spot, but it's still good. Both seats aren't to far off center and is a good compromise to have two still pretty close to center. 

I think the new thing I'm most excited about though is what's going on behind and inside the chairs themselves and what it's capable of delivering. And this is, 2 Crowson MAs and 2 Buttkicker LFEs per seat, especially since my old MAs were fixed by Randy. But the real kicker (pun intended ), is that it's like I'm running a total of 8 TT/MAs all together because I connected my two chairs together, instead of just having the one armed seat butt up to the 2 arm seat (not connected this way but looked like it). They are like one now after attaching them and they all get the effect like one seat. Sure the ones directly under each seat have the most effect. But still the ones under the other seat still have a pretty big effect as well, while not feeling lopsided. 

What this did was give me loads of headroom (the MA's dont get crazy hot and shut down like they used to with say ...MMFR) and seems to deliver quite a bit more intensity that you can really feel, at about the same levels of intensity with the gain levels lower on the amps if that makes sense. Another words, 8 dialed down to be at the same levels as only 4, while giving a more intense feel. Plus butt loads of headroom. I don't know that just adding more subs (once you have enough to give you the SPL you need without distortion and or compression) really adds a whole lot (if any) to the experience once you've got your VNFs in place, but not he case with MAs and BK LFEs. Or at least the BK's anyway. 4 BK LFE' are pretty insane on there own, and even more so combined with the VNFs and MAs. The synergy that they all three create is like nothing I've experienced quite like this yet. I'm still kind of shocked and amazed at what it's delivering, so I'll try not to get to carried away with my descriptions here, as I'm still somewhat in disbelief with it and on a natural high  I'll just say that the panicky type of feeling that I was talking about the other day that I love (A little more so from the BKs, but MAs as well) is even stronger now with a small army of both under my 2 seats. So other than even more of that panicky, oh Sh**, clinch my butt cheeks together so I don't poop my pants and embarrasses myself, I don't know how else to describe it LOL. I think this is what I've been chasing ultimately for the last 3-4 years when I fist started using VNF subs and MAs and TTs down in my living room setup. Little did I know, I just needed more MAs and more BKs AND a couple of Pembroke HT chairs to house them all in! 

Here are few pics to show the setup of the two chairs with an 18" sealed sub behind each chair with drivers about as close as I can get them (about 1" clearance for driver excursion) plus two BK LFEs bolted to the frame and two Crowson MAs per seat. Since the chairs are connected now, I actually preferred the MAa to the outside a little with some experimenting to make it feel more even. One directly under the middle back of seat and the other towards the outside back (still under the metal frame though and not the armrest with plywood in between so it's not magnet to metal). 














































And a couple shots under the chair from the front ...



















Over the last couple of days I've been using Blade Runner 2049, Mad Max Fury Road, Batman vs Superman, and the newest Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales to make my tweaks and use for demo. So far I'm VERY pleased with the config and setup with the Pembrokes. 

One thing I forgot to mention, is I think it's mainly the addition of the BKs that responsible for giving me that feeling I that was trying to describe up above. I can't quite seem to get it quite like this with just the VNFs and 4 MAs. Yes it's awesome, but still not quite the same as adding in the 4 BKs to the mix. Maybe adding in 4 more MAs in place if the BKs for a total of 8 MAs would do it. I don't know, but I kind of think not. There is just something about a bunch of BK LFEs in a group that give a certain feel. They are different than the MAs and create a little different type of feel. Sometimes very similar with minor differences, but sometimes a fair amount of difference. Maybe not quite as rigid as the MAs and give more of the trampoline effect and can also kind of give the feeling of going over the top of a Roller coaster and/or when you start dropping down at the tail end of the log ride if you know what I mean. Your stomach kind of drops and you can kind of feel it in your groin and even chest (somewhat sharply in the chest, even though it's not mid bass). Not quite sure how the BK LFEs do this, but I love it. So the two combine and compliment each other very well IMHO.

@biga6761 - I never did try 4 BKs per seat like we were talking about (I couldn't fit them in there), but since my 2 seats are now connected, it's probably pretty similar to having 4 per seat (although I'm sure still not quite as strong). From what I've experienced so far, I wouldn't hesitate for a second in recommending adding an army of BK LFE's under your couch or whatever seating you have now if it can accommodate them. Or a combo of MAs and BK LFEs whenever you can in the future. I don't think you'll be disappointed!! 

@Nalleh - so I know you,ve been talking about adding some sealed 18s right behind your seating (I think you'll love what they bring for the party as well) to go with your 4 MAs, but you may also consider adding 4 BK LFE's (2 per seat) if you can make them fit as well for even more insanity if you still feel like you want more. I know personal preference can vary a lot from person to person, so you may not like the feel that they create I the mix, but you may love it. I know your all about the extreme just by looking at your insane Atmos setup  

@coolrda - I'm sure it just doesn't get any more intense than your 24" VNF and 4 MAs when it comes to slam and TR, but just for fun if you ever get bored, you may try it as well with your Pembrokes. They accommodate the BKs very well. The BK LFEs are a little more untamed, unruly, and a bit less refined than the MA's, but have TONS of trampoline type power if you like that sort of thing and combine well with the MAs with some tweaking and integration. Like I was telling Nalleh though, the MA's only may be more your style and you might not care for it if your real used to the feel that the MAs deliver, but might be a fun experiment at some point. The combo does feel a bit different than MAs alone, but a good different, at least to me  It's still fasts, clean and damped feeling (although not quite as hardcore damped as the MAs), but still enough so (to me) and a little more springy feeling which I love, especially on these Pembroke's where their firmness and build seem to be more on the damped side by themselves. Not saying this is bad, I love it ...these Pembroke seats are a TR dream and don't know that there could be much better seat for this. I love'em!!

@unretarded - not sure how the top of the line Clarks would compare to a MA or MA+BK setup, but I bet they are pretty bad ass if you ever get into those since you wanting a little lower extension from the ones you have now.

I know, this many MAs and BKs per seat is kind of ridiculous, but I'm loving the feel that they can create with these crazy movie soundtracks  For me, it's really adding to the experience and feeling like so much more than just a bunch of extra shake for the hell of it. 

So on another note, I got rid of my wire nuts like was suggested and I used crimp sleeves + some electrical tape. Seems to be working great. Ugly but I'll never see them because they are under the chair and blocked by the VNF subs. Now I don't have to worry about them coming loose. Speaking of, I was also using banana plugs for the MAs and BKs. Don't know what ever possessed me to do that instead of just wiring directly into them. A couple days ago two of my BKs banana plugs worked their way out, not surprising since they are all about shake and vibration. Don't have to worry about that now  Here's a pic of one of the massive parallel wirings to the 4 MAs (5 wires in each, one for "-" and one for "+".










So anyway here are a few pics of the room. The first two pics are just awful with the back lighting and cell phone, but will kind of give you an idea of how it looks with a bit of light in there. The last two I took with every thing closed up with flash and is real similar to how it looks (pitch black) with no lights on anywhere and only the screen lit up ...





































oooo yeah ..pitch black and immersive yall!! :grin: I've got a few more things I want to do, but getting close to having it completed now!


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## citsur86

Awesome! I haven't seen your new setup. I'm a little sad that the drop down projector upstairs had to go :frown: haha. That was awesome. Are you just keeping the AT motorized screen down now all the time since the room is dedicated? Also, are you hiding some valuable items in your old projector ceiling drop down like James Bond (or Walter White) now that you don't need the projector in there anymore?


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## SBuger

citsur86 said:


> Awesome! I haven't seen your new setup. I'm a little sad that the drop down projector upstairs had to go :frown: haha. That was awesome. Are you just keeping the AT motorized screen down now all the time since the room is dedicated? Also, are you hiding some valuable items in your old projector ceiling drop down like James Bond (or Walter White) now that you don't need the projector in there anymore?


Hey thanks for stopping by and for the comments! I do love this new room, but its kind of unfortunate that I no longer need that dropdown projector lift. It wasn't cheap and was a lot of work to get it right. Plus I thought it was pretty darn cool too, as did a lot of the guests. I was showing it to someone the other day down stairs in the living room, and kind of felt weird to drop it down with no projector in there, nor have all my subs and dropdown screen up front along with the rest of my equipment. Don't get me wrong I love this new room even more than I thought I would, and would have a hard time ever going back if I had to, but is kind of bitter sweet sometimes though because me and my family had a lot of great times down there in the living room with the projector and setup, and the nice open feel was kind of nice for that. I'll slowly get it set back up for movies down there again after this room is done eventually for that sort of thing. I need Atmos and a few others things for this dedicated room first though  Then maybe when I go 4K someday, I can move the projector that I'm using now and was using down there, back down into that projector lift along with the dropdown screen and then just build one (a wider scope) for this room.

So yeah as far as keeping the new screen down all the time in this new room, yep pretty much. Occasionally I'll raise if I need to get back behind there to the speakers or something, but other than that, I just leave it down. Since it's motorized though, I do raise it up a tiny bit to mask the bottom border on scope aspect movies (which most are). Works great. I don't have a mask for the top this way, but its not NEARLY as noticeable on the top as it is on the bottom. Plus with all the blackouts and me being so close to the screen (taking up a lot of my vision), the bars are pretty hard to see anyway and don't ever really notice it unless I really try hard to do so.

I didn't really need a motorized screen in this room, but didn't really want to ditch it since I already had it, and it wasn't cheap either, kinda like the projector lift. I may build one someday and move it back down stairs at some point like I was saying, but for now its working great and I dint have to spend more money. All this stuff can really add up, especially when it seems like there is always something else that is wanted/needed  

I was going to mount a TV back behind it like I had down in the living room setup, but never did get that done. But that's ok, as in this room I don't think that I'd ever use it much anyway (if ever) since I like the big screen so much and is easy to fire up the projector. 

BTW, LOL about hiding some valuable items in that drop down lift downstairs like James Bond  I need to do something like that hehe


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## citsur86

SBuger said:


> Hey thanks for stopping by and for the comments! I do love this new room, but its kind of unfortunate that I no longer need that dropdown projector lift. It wasn't cheap and was a lot of work to get it right. Plus I thought it was pretty darn cool too, as did a lot of the guests. I was showing it to someone the other day down stairs in the living room, and kind of felt weird to drop it down with no projector in there, nor have all my subs and dropdown screen up front along with the rest of my equipment. Don't get me wrong I love this new room even more than I thought I would, and would have a hard time ever going back if I had to, but is kind of bitter sweet sometimes though because me and my family had a lot of great times down there in the living room with the projector and setup, and the nice open feel was kind of nice for that. I'll slowly get it set back up for movies down there again after this room is done eventually for that sort of thing. I need Atmos and a few others things for this dedicated room first though  Then maybe when I go 4K someday, I can move the projector that I'm using now and was using down there, back down into that projector lift along with the dropdown screen and then just build one (a wider scope) for this room.
> 
> So yeah as far as keeping the new screen down all the time in this new room, yep pretty much. Occasionally I'll raise if I need to get back behind there to the speakers or something, but other than that, I just leave it down. Since it's motorized though, I do raise it up a tiny bit to mask the bottom border on scope aspect movies (which most are). Works great. I don't have a mask for the top this way, but its not NEARLY as noticeable on the top as it is on the bottom. Plus with all the blackouts and me being so close to the screen (taking up a lot of my vision), the bars are pretty hard to see anyway and don't ever really notice it unless I really try hard to do so.
> 
> I didn't really need a motorized screen in this room, but didn't really want to ditch it since I already had it, and it wasn't cheap either, kinda like the projector lift. I may build one someday and move it back down stairs at some point like I was saying, but for now its working great and I dint have to spend more money. All this stuff can really add up, especially when it seems like there is always something else that is wanted/needed
> 
> I was going to mount a TV back behind it like I had down in the living room setup, but never did get that done. But that's ok, as in this room I don't think that I'd ever use it much anyway (if ever) since I like the big screen so much and is easy to fire up the projector.
> 
> BTW, LOL about hiding some valuable items in that drop down lift downstairs like James Bond  I need to do something like that hehe


Yeah those are good ideas. Maybe slowly replace some of the things you've brought from your living room for the dedicated room. Maybe an Atmos receiver + whatever extra speakers you need for Atmos, 4K Projector, and fixed frame AT screen. Easier said than done, right? I know you know as much as anyone into this hobby, this stuff isn't cheap!

Once you've done that you can bring the current electric screen, projector, and AVR back upstairs. Then maybe just some budget speakers/sub(s) for casual viewing in there. This is basically my plan in the future, when I get my dedicated theater done in the basement. Whenever that is..haha


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## johnnygrandis

Look like an awesome room you have there, been thinking about some kickers mounted in the my Chairs too so maybe the volume on my subs can be dialed some db Down. 


That Hulk Picture must scared the living daylights out of Your guests    


Well done!


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## SBuger

johnnygrandis said:


> Look like an awesome room you have there, been thinking about some kickers mounted in the my Chairs too so maybe the volume on my subs can be dialed some db Down.
> 
> 
> That Hulk Picture must scared the living daylights out of Your guests
> 
> 
> Well done!


Hey Thanks!! It's just a small little room, but I enjoy the heck out of it. It's been a blast fixing it all up for movies and not having to deal with WAF  

I think you'll really like what the kickers can do for movies, and yes will probably even allow you to turn down your subs a little. The kickers really can make movie watching so fun and take the experience to the next level. They'll be a nice addition to that amazing room of yours (I loved all the pics you posted in the bass movies thread the other day!)

lol ...yeah that Hulk pic on the projector from Avengers is pretty intense in real life since my seating is pretty close to the screen and its 16:9 on that movie  Combine that with kickers and subs behind the seats, and it can almost be sensory overload sometimes. I like intensity and is what I was after though for these movies  It's a little too much for my wife sometimes, but I love it 

She was off of work today so we watched about 3/4's of Guardians of the Galaxy 2 (I love that movie), and she said she felt all stressed out from it. She loved the movie and the the slow scenes, but when stuff got crazy (which is fairly often in that movie), the intensity was little too much for her to handle comfortably. She probably wouldn't make it a minute through something like Mad Max Fury Road, or even parts of the Avengers movie  LOL.


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## SBuger

I'm working on a big Update on the first page. In the process I hit the picture attachment limit, so since I forgot to reserve a spot in the 2nd post, I wanted to post a few of the older pics here from when I started the room and will just link to it from the 1rst page if anyone is ever interested in seeing them.

So here are those older pics that I took along the way getting the room ready. Since my entire room is pretty much blacked out now with the Black Velvet, it's kind of hard to see what's what going on in the pics sometimes. These show the speakers and locations etc a little better with the walls completely bare before I did any treatments or black velvet. 

This setup was really fun with only one recliner with the subs surrounding me for a little while. A few pics:

To help keep this page from turning into a scroll fest, I'll just put them in a spoiler tag ... 



Spoiler



MLP Surrounded by Subs VNF style ...









Another angle ...









A shot of the VNF sealed 18's and 1200d MBM along with the BK LFE's and Crowson MA's where the recliner sits. Coolrda calls his a "Kill Box", so I had to borrow the term  ...









Got the retractable screen put up (the same one that I used down stairs) ...


















And finally started putting up the Black Velvet ...











New UPDATE with lots of pics coming next post (first post all ready updated)  ...


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## SBuger

UPDATE with LOTS of pics  

Well for starters, I changed out my iNuke6000's stock fans with quitter fans and it made a real nice difference. Those stock fans were noisy. Not really a problem when the system is running, especially when cranked up, but they could still be heard during quite scenes, even though they are in the small closet room back behind me. I kind of got used to the fan noise, but still not cool. I can just barley here them now though when I get about 1' away. 

Next, I finally got some lighting put up. Not the greatest lighting in the world, but it works pretty good. I needed something quick and easy that had a remote with 'dimmable' capability. I just got some little 'puck' lights and put 3 up front that will light up the screen during non movie time, and 2 over the seats (one for each seat). I didn't know how they would work out, but they do the job pretty nicely. I'm mean, my room is pretty dark with everything covered in black velvet, so it doesn't light it up like crazy, but provides a nice warm ambient feel and allows me to walk around in there without crashing my knees into subs and stuff from it being so dark (that happened way too many times). It is a lot more inviting now and makes it feel a lot more like a theater.

So I had to do some modifying to these little WHITE pucks. Obviously with all my efforts in blacking out the place with Black Velvet to help control reflected light and distractions, white was not going to work. So I just painted them with matt black. I had to take them a part do to it, but not to big of a deal. Made a huge difference painting them black. While I was at it, I had to mod part of it to make the sensor for the remote more exposed, which definitely helped. Also, for the front 3 lights, I had to make some little black velvet covered blinders to keep from still being able to see some reflection from the screen when a movie is playing. Worked perfectly though. I'll show a pic of that as well down below. 

The 'puck' lights ...

I had to solder a few wires after taking them apart one to many times


















Had to drill a hole in the side to expose the remote sensor to work better 


















So to keep from seeing the movie screen reflections in them during the movie, I just made some little blinders covered in the same black velvet that I used everywhere else, and hung them in front of the lights. The more you get your room blacked out, the more you notice little things are not blacked out, and the 3 little lights up front were quite distracting during a movie, but this TOTALLY solved the problem. YEAH!!!


















So with those updates out of the way, onto the New Room pics!! I just used my iPhone7 for all the pics. Since the room itself pretty dark, I'll start things off with a little entry way decor and some color ...

Got the Cap and Wonder Woman standing guard (yup I'm a Gal Gadot fan as you'll probably see )


















White Screen Shot from just inside the closet behind my two seats










A few screen movie screen shot stills ...

*MARVEL* ..since I seem to love pretty much all the Marvel movies,  









More *MARVEL* ..shot from the back corner, plus I just thought the image and coloring looked cool 









*HULK!!!* - Something about this Hulk pic I love, so I re photo it with the new seats in the mix and it turned out a little better than before. Better color and sharpness. I don't know if the black shag carpet helped or what, but it's better with the same Iphone7 that I took the photo with last time. The black rug covering the entire floor does really help the image quality in real life though, so I guess I'm not surprised the pic turned out better as well.









A few more still screen shots. They've been posting quite a few good ones over in the Bass thread for movies, so that inspired me to try to get some. I was looking for at least one that was hopefully pretty captivating, and thought this one worked perfect for that

*LUCY!!* - Love this movie, has fantastic visuals, bass, and it has Scarlet Johansson









*WONDER WOMAN* - this is one of my favorite moments in the movie and really caught me be surprise the first time I watched it. Since I was ready for it, the bass impact was so cool!

















Yep, more Wonder Woman (she's just so cool, and uh, well ya know ... )









*TRON* - Sitting as close as I do to the 16:9 120" screen, Tron is a TRIP when it's shifts to Imax full screen aspect! Feels like I'm right there in the movie








*
TRANSFORMERS:TLK* - I always love the visuals and all the shinny metal in Transformers









So now on to the room itself. It's small and not the fanciest room ever, but works. It's quite dark with all the surfaces (ceiling, walls) covered in Black Velvet and the floor covered with Black Shag carpet, which is fantastic for when the movie is going (most important to me and what I was after), but still pretty dark at other times even with the lights on. It's pretty much a 'Get Down to Business' kind of room and optimized for this. So it makes it a little tougher to see what's going on with everything, but I tried to photograph it the best I could to hopefully give a good idea.










Some fire power behind the seats ..YEAH!! 









A shot from the closet where the projector, Amps, and PC are at









Not reclined ..which I never watch movies this way but thought I'd better at least get one pic this way 









Oh man, it's starting to finally feel like a theater now with the lighting, new HT seats,etc, instead of just a small dark bat cave. So I'm getting real close now. Still need ATMOS, and eventually 4K, but so far I'm enjoying the SH** out of it. Sometimes I can hardly believe I finally got a dedicated room. I've waited and wanted it for a long time. 

BTW, I updated the first post with all these pics (minus the puck lights), plus a few more if you want to check that out as well.


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## unretarded

Your having way too much fun.......




I like the little puck light idea......I purchased a Bluetooth screw in bulb for the room, but it requires a tablet or a phone......so I do not use it as often as when new.


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## Nalleh

Wow, amazing pics, Buge 

Love your room and setup, i can only imagine the good times you have watching movies in here


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## siuengr

Those screenshots are amazing. What camera were you using? At first I thought you had just posted screenshots from the movie not actual pictures of your screen.


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## SBuger

unretarded said:


> Your having way too much fun.......
> 
> I like the little puck light idea......I purchased a Bluetooth screw in bulb for the room, but it requires a tablet or a phone......so I do not use it as often as when new.


lol ..yeah lots of fun too, but I tell ya, trying to get some decent photos can be trying at times and kind of started feeling like work after a while. I'm glad I spent the time on it, I was needing a bunch of new photos ...but I'm glad that's over though and can now get back to movie watching and fine tuning  

Those little puck lights worked out a lot better than I though they would. I was hopeful, but still wasn't sure. I at least wanted to give them a try first.


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## SBuger

siuengr said:


> Those screenshots are amazing. What camera were you using? At first I thought you had just posted screenshots from the movie not actual pictures of your screen.


Hey thanks siuengr!! Actually I just used my iPhone 7 for all the photos. Surprisingly, it seems to do a great job for the most part and am pleased with how the screenshots turned out. Pics from the Iphone can get a little grainy/noisy in some of the dark areas of the room and chairs sometimes, but other than that, I'm pretty impressed with it and is WAY easier to take photo's with compared to using my older Nikon D200 on a tripod. That would be the best way, but I don't have a whole lot of room for moving the tripod around etc. The one pic I did take with the D200 though was the straight on white screen shot with the lights shining down on it. It definitely did a better job than the iPhone7. 

Damn nice looking theater you have BTW!! Amazing!!


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## siuengr

SBuger said:


> Hey thanks siuengr!! Actually I just used my iPhone 7 for all the photos. Surprisingly, it seems to do a great job for the most part and am pleased with how the screenshots turned out. Pics from the Iphone can get a little grainy/noisy in some of the dark areas of the room and chairs sometimes, but other than that, I'm pretty impressed with it and is WAY easier to take photo's with compared to using my older Nikon D200 on a tripod. That would be the best way, but I don't have a whole lot of room for moving the tripod around etc. The one pic I did take with the D200 though was the straight on white screen shot with the lights shining down on it. It definitely did a better job than the iPhone7.
> 
> Damn nice looking theater you have BTW!! Amazing!!


Thanks, I need to get some updated pics for my theater. I can believe I haven't posted any screenshots. I think I posted one before I had everything setup. I took a lot of pictures on my Canon DSLR when I was trying to compare HDR quality but haven't posted any of them. Your pictures look amazing. The Lucy picture got me. That is one of my "go tos" to check image quality. I really need to watch it all the way through again.


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## SBuger

siuengr said:


> Thanks, I need to get some updated pics for my theater. I can believe I haven't posted any screenshots. I think I posted one before I had everything setup. I took a lot of pictures on my Canon DSLR when I was trying to compare HDR quality but haven't posted any of them. Your pictures look amazing. The Lucy picture got me. That is one of my "go tos" to check image quality. I really need to watch it all the way through again.


Thanks, that Lucy pic was just what I was looking for, I just didn't know it until I found it LOL. Somehow had forgotten about that particular scene in the movie. 

Cool, I'm sure your Canon DSLR does a damn nice job for sure. I'll look forward to seeing your updated theater pics and screenshots! I never get tired of seeing good screen shots


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Wow, amazing pics, Buge
> 
> Love your room and setup, i can only imagine the good times you have watching movies in here


Thanks Nalleh!! 

It's definitely fun watching movies in the new room. I feel very fortunate that it worked out like it did.


----------



## siuengr

SBuger said:


> Thanks, that Lucy pic was just what I was looking for, I just didn't know it until I found it LOL. Somehow had forgotten about that particular scene in the movie.
> 
> Cool, I'm sure your Canon DSLR does a damn nice job for sure. I'll look forward to seeing your updated theater pics and screenshots! I never get tired of seeing good screen shots


What timestamp was that scene in Lucy, or somewhere close? Hopefully you are just enjoying your theater. I feel like I spend half of my time enjoying it, and half the time tweaking something that I probably doesn't need to be tweaked anymore.


----------



## SBuger

siuengr said:


> What timestamp was that scene in Lucy, or somewhere close? Hopefully you are just enjoying your theater. I feel like I spend half of my time enjoying it, and half the time tweaking something that I probably doesn't need to be tweaked anymore.


Time Stamp for that shot in LUCY is* 1:12:29* at the beginning of chapter 18. It only lasts about 1 second right after it shows that she is using 70% brain capacity. It happens quick but is way cool, her eyes start changing color from blue. 

Well kind of ...yes really enjoying the theater, but that said ...I'm a tweaker by nature and sometimes do a fair amount of it. So I hear you on that. 

I cant help but to tweak sometimes, especially because I've had to change seating, add kickers, etc to the mix and had to re run Audyssey a lot. But after an Audy cal, I always tweak more to get things like I want them, then fine tune here and there over time. I do really enjoy that too though, so its not like its taking away from my theater time enjoyment. But since I've had the new room up and running, I've thoroughly enjoyed quite a few movies without tweaking  

But I'm an avid movie clip demo'er as well, and enjoy that just as much or more than full movies. I demo for short 30 minute sessions everyday or whatever I can fit it to get my HT and bass fix. I've got all my BR's in MKV format on an external disc that I connect to my Oppo. Makes it quick and easy to jump around and get to whatever I want fast. Makes demoing easy and fun. This is when I'll usually fine tune and tweak a little bit if I feel the need. That could be FR either on the VNF or FF subs, levels on the MAs and or BK LFEs, levels on the subs themselfs and/or all of the above among other things. These are usually minor tweaks but can make a real big difference sometimes. I'm a perfectionist when it comes to all this stuff, and is probably a curse, but I do love it!!  

That said, I'm getting real close to having it just like I want it (lol yeah right I've said that before  )


----------



## siuengr

SBuger said:


> Time Stamp for that shot in LUCY is* 1:12:29* at the beginning of chapter 18. It only lasts about 1 second right after it shows that she is using 70% brain capacity. It happens quick but is way cool, her eyes start changing color from blue.
> 
> Well kind of ...yes really enjoying the theater, but that said ...I'm a tweaker by nature and sometimes do a fair amount of it. So I hear you on that.
> 
> I cant help but to tweak sometimes, especially because I've had to change seating, add kickers, etc to the mix and had to re run Audyssey a lot. But after an Audy cal, I always tweak more to get things like I want them, then fine tune here and there over time. I do really enjoy that too though, so its not like its taking away from my theater time enjoyment. But since I've had the new room up and running, I've thoroughly enjoyed quite a few movies without tweaking
> 
> But I'm an avid movie clip demo'er as well, and enjoy that just as much or more than full movies. I demo for short 30 minute sessions everyday or whatever I can fit it to get my HT and bass fix. I've got all my BR's in MKV format on an external disc that I connect to my Oppo. Makes it quick and easy to jump around and get to whatever I want fast. Makes demoing easy and fun. This is when I'll usually fine tune and tweak a little bit if I feel the need. That could be FR either on the VNF or FF subs, levels on the MAs and or BK LFEs, levels on the subs themselfs and/or all of the above among other things. These are usually minor tweaks but can make a real big difference sometimes. I'm a perfectionist when it comes to all this stuff, and is probably a curse, but I do love it!!
> 
> That said, I'm getting real close to having it just like I want it (lol yeah right I've said that before  )


Same here. Two subs, then butt kickers, then a third sub. Then moving a 100lb sub all over the room trying to find the best spot for it. The best spot seemed to be right behind the MLP, luckily.


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## Nalleh

What is the timestamp on the Hulk image?


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## Kain

@SBuger

Your setup and pics are awesome. 

Quick question for you...

You sit about 7' from your 120" 16:9 woven AT screen. At that close of a distance, do you notice any screen artifacts (such as noticing the screen's weave, etc.)? Or is the picture perfectly smooth/solid/sharp (i.e. you don't notice the screen itself)?


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> What is the timestamp on the Hulk image?



It's towards the end of the first Avengers movie in 16:9 aspect. Its' brief, kind of like that Lucy scene with the eyes, but it's cool. Time Stamp is 1:53:11 Now that I went and found the time stamp, my Hulk shot (taken with the iPhone7) looks just a tad bit greener/saturated in the photo than the actual Hulk in that scene (also could partially be my monitor). It's close though  FYI, my projector is not calibrated but I love look of it. I tend to like the colors a little more on the saturated and punchy side. I just run it in cinema mode (I think that's the one I use) and gives me what I like, even if it may not be the most accurate (maybe it's close , IDK). But probably a little more saturated than perfectly correct. Skin tones looks normal and natural (to my eyes at least), which is important to me though. A totally blacked out environment makes colors pop more and image brighter too.


----------



## SBuger

Kain said:


> @SBuger
> 
> Your setup and pics are awesome.
> 
> Quick question for you...
> 
> You sit about 7' from your 120" 16:9 woven AT screen. At that close of a distance, do you notice any screen artifacts (such as noticing the screen's weave, etc.)? Or is the picture perfectly smooth/solid/sharp (i.e. you don't notice the screen itself)?


Thanks Kain! 

Great question and I'm actually surprised nobody has asked about that yet. The short answer is yes. I think my only real complaint about sitting this close (with the screen that I have) is that I can see the weave in it occasionally. Thant said, fortunately on the majority of movies I don't really ever notice it much, if at all. That may be partially because I'm just used to it, but also in most normal looking scenes where there is not a large portion of the screen that is very light colored (like lightly cloudy sky), I can just barely see it if I really try, if at all. Sometimes on certain large light colored area's seem to bring it out and can be seen though, compared to other stuff.

But even if I was 9.5' back from the screen, I can still see the weave just a tiny bit in those certain light colored sky type scenes. This is how far my seating was when I had it down in my living room setup previously with the same screen and projector. It tends to look a little bit like rain in the distance in those areas, instead of screen door, if that makes since. 

Luckily, on the majority of movies, I rarely notice it at all and the image just look nice and sharp, great contrast, black levels, shadow detail etc and real immersive this close. If I was noticing it all the time, it would drive me completely nuts and I'd do something different ASAP. 

BUT, eventually I want to change out the screen for something a little smoother hopefully (since my seating in this room has to be pretty close and I want that immersive feel since I cant fit a lot bigger than 120"), especially when I get a 4K projector. A friend of mine on these forums (he doesn't post as often anymore) sits pretty close to his big screen as well, and doesn't see any screen material/weave at all. I forget what screen he said he has, but they no longer offer it I think he said. Surely there is something close out there though. Mine is the XD material (at least I'm pretty sure that's what it is) from SymourAV


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## SBuger

Ok guys, I don't know if anyone really cares or not lol, but I made some changes to my front page first post if anyone is interested. Mainly just tried to organize my text and stuff a little better, along with adding a 'Listening Habits' and 'Final Thoughts' section at the end. Hopefully it'll all be a little easier to read and go though. I guess I dint really realize how many pics and stuff I tried to cram in there. I kept hitting the pic limit the other day and had to keep slowly removing Emoji's (those are considered pics too) to make enough room for actual photo pics LOL 

Anyways, Cheers fella's - Thanks for the support and nice comments and helpful advice etc along the way. This forum really is an awesome and fun place, and is pretty cool to be able to have a dedicated room thread in this section of the forum and discuss and share what we all seem to love so much


----------



## Killroy

Love the room! This is what I am in the process of planning for our new house. Total inspiration and stealing some ideas.

Do you happen to have a link to that black shag rug? I think you posted it on the Black Theater thread but I can't seem to find it. Solid black rugs are not that easy to find.


----------



## SBuger

Killroy said:


> Love the room! This is what I am in the process of planning for our new house. Total inspiration and stealing some ideas.
> 
> Do you happen to have a link to that black shag rug? I think you posted it on the Black Theater thread but I can't seem to find it. Solid black rugs are not that easy to find.


Hey thanks Killroy for stopping by and the comments! Glad to have inspired. And also, go for it ....feel free to steal away!!  That's exciting about your future plans for sure!!

About the Black 'Shag' rug. Yeah stuff get buried over there pretty fast. But I somehow found it, so I'll just copy and past what I posted over there:

--------
I got the rug off Amazon. I bookmarked the link a while back thinking that I might try it at some point. I think it may have even been from this thread somewhere. Or could have been from someone's room thread, I don't remember for sure. Either way here it is  It's called the A2Z Rug from the Cozy Shaggy Collection:

https://www.amazon.com/A2Z-Rug-Shaggy-Collection-5x8-Feet/dp/B01M329LAS?th=1

Kind of pricey for the bigger sizes, but worth it to me. I guess most of these larger shag rugs are fairly pricey, but there were some a little cheaper but didn't get as good of reviews. Plus wherever it was that I got the link from a while back, IIRC the guys really liked it, so I went for it. So far I love the thing and does just what I wanted it to do, plus like I was saying before - its nice and cozy and feels good on the feet  
--------

So far, still really liking the rug and seems like really good one. The only thing I don't like about it, is it has a white bass under the black shag. BUT, that said, I never see it. Yes if shine a flash light down directly into it, I can kind of see it just barely in a few places where the shag has a tiny gap in it here and there. But other than that, I never see the white at all. Now if you start loosing ton of shag pieces over time, then probably not going to be good. But I don't really see that happening anytime soon. If I had to eventually, I'd have no problem purchasing the same rug again  Highly recommended rug.


----------



## Killroy

Thanks. Bookmarked. My room is 14-feet wide so two of those 7-footers would be perfect.


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## DavidK442

I followed your sig. link from the Completed Theater thread. Refreshing to see someone not only consumed by the home theater building hobby, but passionate about the resulting movie experience as well.
Fantastic use of a small room - the very definition of dedicated space.
120" from 7' in a totally blacked out environment...I would love to experience 3D in that setting.

Though I will likely never invest in so much tactile fire-power I find your comparison of slab vs. suspended construction informative.

A few posts back you commented on your XD screen. I am glad the weave is not too intrusive, except on those pesky panning skies.
The XD fabric is a unique animal in that it provides close to 1.0 gain in a color accurate, acoustically transparent screen.
The only downside is the weave for close viewing distances. I have scoured AVS and other sources and have yet to find an AT screen that matches XD's brightness but with less visible texture.
Not sure why Seymour can not tweak their design just slightly to close up the holes. Even if the high frequencies take a few db's hit, it would be a welcome compromise.
Perhaps with a tighter weave the smaller holes would simply be bridged and filled in completely by the vinyl coating process, making it non-AT.

Continue enjoying and tweaking your juggernaut of a room.
You have earned the right to be proud.


----------



## SBuger

DavidK442 said:


> I followed your sig. link from the Completed Theater thread. Refreshing to see someone not only consumed by the home theater building hobby, but passionate about the resulting movie experience as well.
> Fantastic use of a small room - the very definition of dedicated space.
> 120" from 7' in a totally blacked out environment...I would love to experience 3D in that setting.
> 
> Though I will likely never invest in so much tactile fire-power I find your comparison of slab vs. suspended construction informative.
> 
> A few posts back you commented on your XD screen. I am glad the weave is not too intrusive, except on those pesky panning skies.
> The XD fabric is a unique animal in that it provides close to 1.0 gain in a color accurate, acoustically transparent screen.
> The only downside is the weave for close viewing distances. I have scoured AVS and other sources and have yet to find an AT screen that matches XD's brightness but with less visible texture.
> Not sure why Seymour can not tweak their design just slightly to close up the holes. Even if the high frequencies take a few db's hit, it would be a welcome compromise.
> Perhaps with a tighter weave the smaller holes would simply be bridged and filled in completely by the vinyl coating process, making it non-AT.
> 
> Continue enjoying and tweaking your juggernaut of a room.
> You have earned the right to be proud.


Thank you very much DavidK for your comments and taking the time to go through some of my posts/write-ups!! 

Compared to most, I'm sure I probably go a little overboard when it comes to the tactile energy part of it, but I do thoroughly enjoy it  I can definitely understand that this much TR fire power may not be for everybody. I'm glad you found the slab vs suspended floor informative. It was a fun experiment, and for the most part I still feel the same after being on the suspended floor for a while now (at least when VNF subs behind the seating, TTs and or Crowson MAs are involved on both). One thing that I've found though is that I'm actually getting more 10-13hz Tactile Response through the floor than I had originally thought and adds to what the subs behind the seats and TTs/MAs do as well. In fact, If I'm not careful I can end up with too much 10-13hz TR on a few of the monster 5 star bass movies  Who would have ever thought one could possibly have too much 10-13hz TR!? (at least in relation to TR above that). I didn't think it was possible.

I'm thinking that most suspended floors may have different resonate frequencies (more in some area's vs others, and probably does vary (at least somewhat) from one suspended floor to another). I think mine just so happens to be very responsive in that 10-13hz area and the floor can really get to moving in those frequencies. Combined with my arsenal of tactile gear, it can get pretty crazy in that range sometimes.

So about the 7' from 120" screen when it comes to 3D, I gotta say, its pretty darn cool  I'm a big time 3D fan and loved it even when I was down in my living room setup at 9.5' away from the same 120" screen. IMO, for 3D, the closer you can get. the better (up to a certain point anyway). It just really seems to bring out the depth that much more, and can be pretty amazing. I first starting experimenting with this a little bit when my setup was down in my living room where my seating and eyes to screen distance was 9.5'. So I'd sometimes set up on the very edge of my seat to get closer (putting eyes to screen at around where I'm at now at 7', or within a couple of inches at least), and just couldn't believe what it would do and how it felt/looked like. That is part of what got me thinking about trying to move up into this little room actually (since I didn't want to move my couch downstairs any further into the middle of the room to get closer to the screen - partially WAF), not just the curiously of how the bass might differ and of course just wanting a dedicated room. 

Everything in my small 3D collection (I've got about 30-40 I think) is better being closer, plus the blacking out most definitely helped as well (a lot). A couple in particular that blow my mind are Avatar, Ghost in the Shell, Pacific Rim, Dr Strange, Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, etc. The first 3 I mentioned are in 16:9 which makes the screen seem even bigger like IMAX, so that helps as well. There is a lot of places in Avatar that really is just plain nuts and hard to explain the feeling it gives. A lot of times it feels like branches and stuff are going to smack into you in the forest scenes and makes you feel like you need to duck out of the way or something. Very cool, but kind of freaky!  I do love it though!

Hey thanks for the info on the screen. Makes sense about the XD screen now. Yeah it'd be nice if they could make the weave a little tighter or something like you say, even it it attenuated the high frequencies a little more. At some point when I go 4K, I probably want to change to something a little smoother if that is possible in an AT screen since I'm sitting so close. For now I'm fine with what little bit I see it on the light skies etc, but to take full advantage of 4K PQ etc, I'd not want to see any of this if possible. Did you find many AT screens (or material) that is better at not showing the weave, but is still fairly close to the brightness that XD can give in your search?

Hey thanks again for stopping by and your comments!! Much appreciated!!

BTW, Very nice theater you have! I checked it out from your link. Looks like you have a pretty dark room too and set it all up for a very reasonable price!! Awesome!


----------



## SBuger

I posted this over in the "Movies Bass Thread" as well since I thought this movie had some great bass (not just visuals), but thought I might as well post it here as well  Not sure if I can make another pic fit in my first post of this thread, but will try (I hit the limit, so will have to delete something first lol) 

3D this time  ...

*Guardians of the Galaxy II ((3D)) Still Screen Shots ...*









So I've been on a *Guardians of the Galaxy II* kick lately and have watched it 3 times this week LOL  It started with a few demo sessions with this movie, to mix up demo time a little bit, and I enjoyed it so much that I ended up watching the whole movie once by myself, a second time with my wife, and a third by myself again, but this time in 3D. 

I freaking love this movie if you cant tell haha!!!  (I guess I'd have too, to watch it this many times in a short period huh lol). Drax cracks me up and the whole movie is just so fun! 2D is awesome too, but this bubble scene is one of my absolute favorites for 3D. It switches to 1:85:1 full screen aspect (or whatever it is) a lot of the time which works good on my screen (since it's 16:9), but wish it would stay like this the whole way through for 3D if they are going to have IMAX mode at all in part of it. Oh well. The bubbles feel like they are right out in front of me and could touch them! If you look in the bottom right image, it looks pretty crazy. The worse it looks when your 3D glasses are off like that, the better the 3D usually is 

Anyway, not only do I love the movie (funny as heck, great visuals and sound), but has fantastic fun BASS as well  Especially that whole Sovereign Fleet attack/chase up until it ends, Gamora and her sister's battle, and of course the whole ending battle. 

Also watched *Jumanji* today with my daughter since she is off on spring break. Pretty darn fun, she loved it and I laughed a lot. Real fun bass as well, but I think I preferred the bass in GOTG2 (the first one as well) over Jumanji. I really liked Jumanji but don't think I could watch it 3 times in a week like I did with Guardians of the Galaxy.

So YEAH ....Guardians of the Galaxy!!


----------



## unretarded

I have 1 in 3D, but not 2.....yet........

I just picked up 2 from the redbox for 4.99........


----------



## audioguy

Very, very nice theater. Great job and I am sure it is fun to be in there. With all of that "woofage" as well as the transducers, I'm sure the low end must be quite awesome in that room,. I'm on a 2nd floor and don't really need any seat transducers. I have plenty of visceral bass to satisfy my needs without them.

I, too, took much of the direction on my theater "decor" from the "make it all black thread" (or whatever it is called). You had better luck than I on black floor. I actually ripped out the carpet in the front of the theater and replaced it with black carpet, but once installed, not so black, Ceiling is black velvet; walls (4+ feet away) are black GOM, and black velvet (now sagging but can't see) on the ceiling and under the front soffit. 

I have the same size screen and can't imagine sitting 7 feet from it. That would most certainly be "immersive". We are about 13.5 feet from the screen.

You said your NAS was "connected" to your Blu Ray player. Connection vis USB? I ask because I am having trouble getting my Oppo to work with my NAS over the network. I, too, ripped all of my movies with MakeMKV and am using an Apple TV with Infuse to watch them but the Apple TV does not yet support Dolby Atmos or DTS:X. 

When trying to connect my Oppo to my NAS over the network, it "sees" the NAS but can't seem to "see" the movie folders I have set up. Probably a setup issue on the NAS but I am south of a "newbie" when it comes to understanding the whole NAS thing.

Maybe if I direct connected the Oppo to the NAS, it might solve my problem. My NAS is by Synology!!

Great theater .... Enjoy!!


----------



## SBuger

audioguy said:


> Very, very nice theater. Great job and I am sure it is fun to be in there. With all of that "woofage" as well as the transducers, I'm sure the low end must be quite awesome in that room,. I'm on a 2nd floor and don't really need any seat transducers. I have plenty of visceral bass to satisfy my needs without them.
> 
> I, too, took much of the direction on my theater "decor" from the "make it all black thread" (or whatever it is called). You had better luck than I on black floor. I actually ripped out the carpet in the front of the theater and replaced it with black carpet, but once installed, not so black, Ceiling is black velvet; walls (4+ feet away) are black GOM, and black velvet (now sagging but can't see) on the ceiling and under the front soffit.
> 
> I have the same size screen and can't imagine sitting 7 feet from it. That would most certainly be "immersive". We are about 13.5 feet from the screen.
> 
> You said your NAS was "connected" to your Blu Ray player. Connection vis USB? I ask because I am having trouble getting my Oppo to work with my NAS over the network. I, too, ripped all of my movies with MakeMKV and am using an Apple TV with Infuse to watch them but the Apple TV does not yet support Dolby Atmos or DTS:X.
> 
> When trying to connect my Oppo to my NAS over the network, it "sees" the NAS but can't seem to "see" the movie folders I have set up. Probably a setup issue on the NAS but I am south of a "newbie" when it comes to understanding the whole NAS thing.
> 
> Maybe if I direct connected the Oppo to the NAS, it might solve my problem. My NAS is by Synology!!
> 
> Great theater .... Enjoy!!


Hey thanks audioguy!! So far it really has been so much fun watching movies (and demoing) in the new room. I think it may have even exceeded my hopes of what a dedicated room could be (I've wanted one for a LONG time and have always had my HT setups in different living rooms along the way, not that I didn't really enjoy those as well, but really wanted something that I could have free reign with to setup however I wanted and not deal with WAF )

The low end is definitely fun, as I'm sure yours is as well on the 2nd floor with all our subs. Yep the floor can really get to moving huh! Mine seems to resonate pretty well at all frequencies, but can get a little wild around 10-13hz, especially combined with the TT's. I've never experienced a suspended floor before this, but I would think that most would have certain frequencies that were excited more easily than others. Its fun for sure! 

I remember seeing a lot of your posts in that blackout theater thread and was another big inspiration for me to try to black mine all out. So thanks!! 

About sitting that close to the screen - 7' is definitely close and very 'immersive' which is one of the things I was going for and wanted to use my existing 120" screen that I already had (at least for now). It's just about right for my tastes (I got used to it pretty quick and love it) even though it's SO breaking the 'rules' for recommended viewing distance for screen size. I'm sure it would probably a little much for some and kind of surprises me that it's not for me, because I'm so not a sit in front rows kind of guys at the commercial theaters (that's WAY to close for me and not enjoyable at all) when we go (which is very seldom these days). It is a little too close for my wife on some material (she gets motion sickness fairly easy though). I may try to move my seating back a couple inches and see if that helps her a bit. Being this close, even 1-2" can make a big difference in feel. If I move 1" more forward, it's too much for me at times and I start wanting to scoot back. But 1-2" further back is still good, while not quite as intense. We'll see, even though this room is primarily for me, I still want my wife to be able to really enjoy it as well whenever she wants to watch a movie. We (me, my wife and daughter) had a blast watching the latest Jumanji the other day. I sometimes get so wrapped up in tweaking for perfect optimal performance (I'll admit I enjoy this part of it as well) and getting the best experience possible for 'My" demo time and movie watching, that I sometimes forget that one of the coolest things about having a Home Theater is that it can be such fun family entertainment and memories as well, and is OK to let all that other go (for a little while anyway ) and just enjoy it for what it is. Makes me thankful to have a home theater, and a family to enjoy it with me when they want a movie. 

So about my connection to the Blu Ray player for MKV. Yep, I just connect it directly into the Oppo 103 with a USB cable. Certainly not fancy but seems to work pretty flawless and makes flipping around to whatever so fast and easy. And yes, don't have to get up and mess with discs etc like you were saying in your thread. It has me spoiled.

I've got a friend who keeps wanting to hook me up with Plex and run them from my PC, but haven't tried it yet. 

Not sure what might be going on with yours not seeing the folders on your NAS, but hope you can get it figured out. Can you get your 4K/Atmos discs ripped to MKV files without any problems? I'm using MakeMKV for the blu rays and works great. I only have one 4K disc right now (Guardians of the Galaxy 2) and my PC disc reader wont read 4K disc to try to rip it to MKV, so I need to get one that will I guess so I can try it out. I'm getting ready to do a 7.1.4 Atmos setup this week, and need to start getting 4K Atmos discs now and hope to convert them all to MKV files like I've been doing with the blu rays.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by my thread as well. Your room and thread have been an inspiration to me for sure!


----------



## audioguy

SBuger said:


> Not sure what might be going on with yours not seeing the folders on your NAS, but hope you can get it figured out. Can you get your 4K/Atmos discs ripped to MKV files without any problems? I'm using MakeMKV for the blu rays and works great. I only have one 4K disc right now (Guardians of the Galaxy 2) and my PC disc reader wont read 4K disc to try to rip it to MKV, so I need to get one that will I guess so I can try it out. I'm getting ready to do a 7.1.4 Atmos setup this week, and need to start getting 4K Atmos discs now and hope to convert them all to MKV files like I've been doing with the blu rays.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for stopping by my thread as well. Your room and thread have been an inspiration to me for sure!


There are two or three readers that will allow you to rip 4K movies with MakeMKV assuming they are still available. Just go to that thread and see if folks are still able to find them. 

And you will *LOVE* 7.1.4. It will be the best sonic upgrade you will have ever made.


----------



## unretarded

I played with plex, its strong point is the multi TV, multi room and over the internet features for mobil devices.


It has good organization and a pretty good interface.


If any of the above usage scenarios fit, then its great. If only using for one room/one TV, then while it costs money...movie collector is pretty good....I think they both let you watch trailers etc......just seemed like movie collector did this better/smoother and had a better interface. 



Movie collector has a free trial/download, it will work with 50 movies to let you play around and see how you like it and then plex basic is free, so it does not cost to play with both. Movie collector has a separate Music collector....so if you have a ton of music that is also some thing to consider.


I would play with both..........as they seemed to be the top 2 for interactive playback in a HT setting......the rest were clunky or more of a cataloging solution to me.


Either way, they were both fun to play with.


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## audioguy

@SBuger I see you are in Albuquerque. Beautiful city. Great sunsets. My parents moved there right after I graduated from high school (in California) so I ended up going to UNM. And to give you an idea of how long ago that was, the student population was about 8000 !!! I just looked and the current student population is about 27,000 !! The Albuquerque population at the time was about 250,000. Now I understand it is somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 depending on what counties are included

My father told me to give UNM a year and if I didn't like it, I could go to UCLA. But, I soon discovered alcohol and women - not necessarily in that order. Joined a fraternity and never looked back. It was an awesome 4 years. Many fond memories.  As a result of seeing where you were living, I went on-line and pulled up the Annual for one of the years I attended. (1845 !! ). LOTS of faces and names I had completely forgotten about.


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## SBuger

audioguy said:


> @SBuger I see you are in Albuquerque. Beautiful city. Great sunsets. My parents moved there right after I graduated from high school (in California) so I ended up going to UNM. And to give you an idea of how long ago that was, the student population was about 8000 !!! I just looked and the current student population is about 27,000 !! The Albuquerque population at the time was about 250,000. Now I understand it is somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 depending on what counties are included
> 
> My father told me to give UNM a year and if I didn't like it, I could go to UCLA. But, I soon discovered alcohol and women - not necessarily in that order. Joined a fraternity and never looked back. It was an awesome 4 years. Many fond memories. As a result of seeing where you were living, I went on-line and pulled up the Annual for one of the years I attended. (1845 !! ). LOTS of faces and names I had completely forgotten about.


Ahhh ...cool about your folks and you going to school here!! Sounds like it was good, and you had a real good time as well  My father in law went to high school here (he lives in Roswell, NM now - the Alien city ) From what he tells me it has REALLY grown. He's always telling me what it used to be like (or not like with nothing at all there) wherever we are at around town if he's with me.

I've got some friends that moved here from California (San Francisco) about 10 years ago because it's so much cheaper. They seem to really like it. For the most part we really like it too. 

Albuquerque does have some beautiful sunsets. I'm so used to them now that I guess I didn't realize just how big and beautiful they can be. We've taken a few trips to Maui and Belize and I actually didn't think their sunsets had much, if anything on these Albuquerque sunsets. Now when it comes to greenery and waters ...lol no contest there!  It's pretty dry and not nearly as green here in comparison, but I do really like it and enjoy being able to see for miles at a time. I'm so used to it, that I remember the first time I was in Florida, parts of it (most of it) made me feel closed in because I'm so used to that BIG OPEN feel and being able to see forever a lot times.


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## SBuger

Time for a MAJOR UPDATE 

*DOLBY ATMOS !!!!!!*

YESSSSS ...Finally!!!!!!           

So if you can't tell already, I'm very excited about it!!!!! I don't have a cool wall plate plaque yet (I want to get one ) that I can put at the theater entry that says 'Dolby Atmos' and/or "DTS:X", so I just printed one out for a temp pic  If any of you guys ever wondered who the hell is this SBuger guy, then here is a shot of my ugly mug so you can put a face behind the name hahahaha!!!










Alright, with that out of the way. Wow you guys were so right about Atmos. Atmos kicks MAJOR butt, seriously!!! So thanks to all who have encouraged me to get it done - @Nalleh, @biga6761, @unretarded, @audioguy, @jedimastergrant in this thread (sorry if I'm forgetting someone, there are probably more) and others as well in other parts of the forum. So thanks a lot you guys for the push and all the positive talk about it. I'd like to give a special thanks @Nalleh !! Such a cool dude that I've exchanged lots of PMs with recently. So fun talking to someone who is into this stuff as much as I am and is willing to share. Your awesome system and views have been a big influence on me and my system. You answered a lot of my newbie Atmos questions a long the way which helped a lot. So thanks my good friend from the other side of the world!! @biga6761, you too, thanks for the great PMs my friend. 

So for a Receiver, I ended up getting a new Denon 6300H on closeout, so I was happy about that. So far the unit seems to be awesome!! It sounds fantastic and can use the new MultiEQ Audyssey Editors App, which is just WAY cool. It brings so much flexibility over the normal Audy in the AVR itself. It's allowed me to do things that would have otherwise not been possible with the standard Audyssey XT32. For instance, I'm only having Audy correct up to about 5Khz, then untouched after that. This seems to get me a sound that I love. I've tried it every way you can think of, with editing the curve itself to just having it correct up to a certain point. Awesome and so Flexible indeed. I've been wishing Audyssey had this kind of control for a while now and here it is. WOOHOO!! It allowed me to get the exact amount of roll of that I want and where, but also help me out on the bottom end, which is REALLY needed in my mode riddled square room.

I went with an all KEF Q series system since I already was running them in a 5.1 setup. I just added more to get to a 7.1.4 Atmos. Also, I moved my center channel speaker that I was using to my downstairs setup and replaced it with a tower speaker to match my front mains. It made a real nice difference in the front sound stage to have identical speakers up there. So that was pretty cool too and a nice upgrade. I couldn't get a single in black oak to match my others, but its behind the AT screen anyway and it'ss very dark in my room. So no biggy there. 

Here's a few pics. Sorry for the bad quality but is about the best I could do. It's so hard to get good pics in a blacked out room, but this should give you an idea of speaker placement etc. I'm sure in ceiling speakers would work better for the top heights because my ceiling is pretty low at 8', but they seem to work great hung from the ceiling like this. Man those overheads really do add to the immersive and big bubble of sound for sure!! SO COOL!!!


























I've checked out a fair number of true Atmos tracks so far and am VERY impressed to say the least. Atmos is the real deal for sure and definitely helps the total immersion thing for movies that I've got going on with the blacked out room and all. Also, I'm very impressed with the upmixers as well. Both DSU and Nueral:X which is nice because I've to a lot non Atmos movies mixes in MKV format that I love. I'm really looking forward to going through my collection again, as it's breathing new life into movie demo clips that I've probably seen 100's of times. 

So one thing that I had to change recently was switching to a different miniDSP (it wasn't working right and was giving me a lot of trouble). So when I changes I found out that it was actually altering my FR from the get go without PEQ etc (just by running it though it). It gave me more troubles than just that though, so long story short, I changed and all is good now in that department. But I did have to re calibrate and took a bit of work to get my bass response looking, feeling and sounding good again. This is what my bass response looks like now, similar to what it used to overall though. 










I was running this for a while, but have changed it a little (I've got more rolloff on the upper end now which I seem to prefer (so easy to do with the Editors App)). Probably the flattest response I've ever had across the board. My subs are not run flat with the higher frequencies like this (I usually bump them up a fair amount above the speakers), but thought I'd show this since I've never had quite this flat of a response across the board before LOL










One thing that may could be a little bit better, is a touch more liveliness in my room. I've got everything covered in SY Triple black velvet and it may have it on the verge of being too dead sounding. I still think it sounds wonderful with sounds coming from everywhere with spectacular imaging (which I think the KEFs do so well at), but it might be even better with a little more liveliness. The SY has a backing on it and dampens/deadens the top end quite a bit. FR is not a problem, but maybe a tad to much deadening. Then again, maybe not. It does sound great to me. This is the first time that I've had a sound treated room so I have nothing to compare it to though, other than all my untreated living rooms that I've been in over the years. I've go the front wall completely treated with 2" Roxul Rockboard 80 and the first reflections on the side wall for R,C, and Left front speakers with 1" OC703. Then all this Velvet covering every square inch, which may be a little much for optimal sound, IDK. What I do know though, is that what it does for the video and total distraction free viewing is amazing and I'd have a hard time giving that up. Sometime in the future I may mess with taking part of it down (back half maybe) just to see what it sounds like. If there is a big difference and I really like it, then maybe go back with GOM (like I've seen @audioguy talk about before) or maybe some of that backless velvet that @unretarded uses. Stretchy stuff I hear, but I could probably make it work if I decided I need to do something different. It would be a lot of work and I'd prefer not to mess with it, but I'm sure curiously will get the best of me. My wife and I were watching one of here shows with a lot of music in it (Forever my Girl I think it was) in my downstairs setup last night since I just got that set back up as well (I wanted to see how it sounded), and this is when I noticed a ;more lively sound than in my room. It was kind of refreshing actually. Now the voices are not great because of way to much slap echo and the imaging and precision are just not there like in my room now, but that liveliness was undeniable. I liked it. Nothing is treated and only carpet in the living room, so its way too reflective, but I have to admit that the extra liveliness compared to what I'm used to was kind of refreshing. Somewhere in the middle might be perfect and I'd probably welcome a few reflections in my room. 

Do you guys have any thoughts on this? I'm sure the GOM would be awesome for the sound since I don't think it will effect the sound at all, but is pretty expensive from what I can see and is not as dark as black velvet, which I can deal with if needed.


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## Nalleh

Awsome update, man  About time you took the step up to Atmos, it’s only been available for almost 4 years, dude!

Just, kidding, but glad to help, and it sounds like you have no regrets about upgrading 

I loved Atmos from day one, and still gets goosebumps from a good Atmos track, and as you said, even the upmixers are awsome.

You should also have a more stable system now, since you solved the issue with the minidsp, so now you can just sit down and enjoy a good movie. BR2049 is a exellent start


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## SBuger

^^^ Thanks Bro!!


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## subacabra

Congrats dude! Atmos sure to add to your enjoyment! 
And for some reason I pictured you as an older guy lol


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## torii

ebay has everything it seems...here is a dolby sign that looks cool and is cheap.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dolby-Digital-3D-Audio-Store-LED-Neon-Sign-/122667202543


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## unretarded

Way to unleash the big guns ! 


It takes a little time for that dampened sound to set in and adjust to it....I do not notice it much now.



Get ready to hit pause more than often as you will think sounds are the front door or not the movie for a while....mine still gets me and I hit pause, because I could swear the sound came from outside or another room....LOL


Enjoy!


PS...….

I can`t recommend this enough, while not the best movie ever made, the upmixed sound is off the charts inside the cave as all of the speakers are going almost the entire time and the overheads are continuous thru the movie ! It helps to bump the ceiling and surrounds up a couple DB and bump the center down a couple db to get max effect from this movie.


https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0402901/


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## SBuger

subacabra said:


> Congrats dude! Atmos sure to add to your enjoyment!
> And for some reason I pictured you as an older guy lol


Hey thanks!!!

Nope, young and spry!! LOL ...nah, man I'm like 42 or 43. See my memory is already starting to fail me haha. I don't like to think about how old I actually am lol I still feel like I'm in my 20's for the most part ...you know besides my receding hair line, crowsfeet, decreased recover time ... yada yada


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## SBuger

torii said:


> ebay has everything it seems...here is a dolby sign that looks cool and is cheap.
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dolby-Digital-3D-Audio-Store-LED-Neon-Sign-/122667202543


Hey thanks for the link Torii! Yes Ebay is good, that's where I got all the other crap hanging outside my entry door . Well not the canvases, but the other.


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## SBuger

unretarded said:


> Way to unleash the big guns !
> 
> 
> It takes a little time for that dampened sound to set in and adjust to it....I do not notice it much now.
> 
> 
> 
> Get ready to hit pause more than often as you will think sounds are the front door or not the movie for a while....mine still gets me and I hit pause, because I could swear the sound came from outside or another room....LOL
> 
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> 
> PS...….
> 
> I can`t recommend this enough, while not the best movie ever made, the upmixed sound is off the charts inside the cave as all of the speakers are going almost the entire time and the overheads are continuous thru the movie ! It helps to bump the ceiling and surrounds up a couple DB and bump the center down a couple db to get max effect from this movie.
> 
> 
> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0402901/


lol ..hey thanks! 

So do you think your sound may be a little dampedend too from all the velvet, even though yours is without backing? Well I guess I had gotten used to mine too because I didn't really think much about it until I listened to my system downstairs last night lol

Yeah some sounds wre freaking me out last night when demoing the Atmos. It does make you pause the movies sometimes and kind of makes my heart race with certain noises. 

Cool thanks for the recommendation on that movie, I'll check that out for sure!!


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## subacabra

SBuger said:


> Hey thanks!!!
> 
> Nope, young and spry!! LOL ...nah, man I'm like 42 or 43. See my memory is already starting to fail me haha. I don't like to think about how old I actually am lol I still feel like I'm in my 20's for the most part ...you know besides my receding hair line, crowsfeet, decreased recover time ... yada yada


I'm 41 going on 25 lol so I totally understand.


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## biga6761

Hey Bug the room is looking and I'm sure sounding really awesome. I'm glad to hear you are really liking the Audyssey app, this just adds to the already building pressure I feel to acquire it myself. I have wanted it since it's release and the proof is in the graphs you posted above. Staggering work there too my friend, that response looks amazing.
Also I'm so stoked that you are feeling the Atmos as much as we all said you would. That could have been real bad if you hadn't. Lol but I'm really happy for you and look forward to future reports after you get more content checked out. Don't forget any PC with Windows and any Xbox one can do Atmos for both movies and games.

As far as you wanting a more lively room between all the velvet and the absorptive treatments you have now is not uncommon. It is the same position I found myself in after getting the fabric up throughout the entire room and I would recommend you look into the same thing I am, Diffusers. I have been looking at them for a while and just hadn't got around to buying any until recently when I picked up a few second hand. Even just the two I have put up so far have made a dramatic difference in the right direction.

There are several ways you can implement diffusion in your room that will help with the liveliness and allow you to keep the fabric you are already using. I can point you to a few products and companies that sell some. Although a little pricey for what they are, if they get you where you want to be without making huge changes to what you already have why not. Just PM me if you want more info or maybe you already know about them but either way I think diffusers will do what you are wanting.

Enjoy the new gear and setup and hit me back. Again really nice response and extention brother. Good work as always all around sir.

P.S. Nice photo. Damn you keep fit dude. Are you sure you are remembering that age right? Lmao Thirty what'dusay again?


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## SBuger

biga6761 said:


> Hey Bug the room is looking and I'm sure sounding really awesome. I'm glad to hear you are really liking the Audyssey app, this just adds to the already building pressure I feel to acquire it myself. I have wanted it since it's release and the proof is in the graphs you posted above. Staggering work there too my friend, that response looks amazing.
> Also I'm so stoked that you are feeling the Atmos as much as we all said you would. That could have been real bad if you hadn't. Lol but I'm really happy for you and look forward to future reports after you get more content checked out. Don't forget any PC with Windows and any Xbox one can do Atmos for both movies and games.
> 
> As far as you wanting a more lively room between all the velvet and the absorptive treatments you have now is not uncommon. It is the same position I found myself in after getting the fabric up throughout the entire room and I would recommend you look into the same thing I am, Diffusers. I have been looking at them for a while and just hadn't got around to buying any until recently when I picked up a few second hand. Even just the two I have put up so far have made a dramatic difference in the right direction.
> 
> There are several ways you can implement diffusion in your room that will help with the liveliness and allow you to keep the fabric you are already using. I can point you to a few products and companies that sell some. Although a little pricey for what they are, if they get you where you want to be without making huge changes to what you already have why not. Just PM me if you want more info or maybe you already know about them but either way I think diffusers will do what you are wanting.
> 
> Enjoy the new gear and setup and hit me back. Again really nice response and extention brother. Good work as always all around sir.
> 
> P.S. Nice photo. Damn you keep fit dude. Are you sure you are remembering that age right? Lmao Thirty what'dusay again?


Yo Biga ...thanks so much man!!

I guess anything is possible, because I did really liked what I had it before, but I would have been shocked it I didn't really like Atmos. 

I think you'll really like the app. It's pretty amazing IMO! It allows so much flexibly and tweakability! Truly awesome and so glad they came out with it. At least when you get it here soon probably, all the bugs will be worked out that you may have had to deal with when it first came out. It seems to work flawlessly for me and Nalleh too he said. There was one little thing that I was having trouble with, but it was just dumb user error on my part and eventfully figured it out. 

That is awesome that the diffusers are helping out that much to help solve the problem!! I'll definitely have to try them out. How many and where are planning to place them all with your 7.1.4? Maybe I'll do something similar since your getting such good results from it. I had forgotten that you did that much fabric in your room as well. 

Ok I'll shoot you a PM in the coming days about more info. Thanks!!

About the response, thanks. It's a challenging room for sure and can be really trying. I did something a little different this time around and used just one subout for all subs and kind of did it in an unorthodox manor with how I'm running it now. So far so good though, I'm really happy with it for the most part ATM. I tried it lots of different ways. A lot of times with different sub locations and techniques, I can get it pretty flat across the board with no holes, but can sound and feel different, even with a very similar looking response. Just goes to show, just because an FR looks a certain way, doesn't mean it's going to sound and FEEL the same or like you'd expect/want LOL. I've know and have encountered this before in my previous setup downstairs, but this really made me aware if it. There are just so many variables at play that can effect it in major and minor ways. 

About the fitness. I do love the fitness stuff and used to be just as obsessed about it as I am with the Home Theater. I've backed off on that though and just try to be normal with it. I seriously used to 'live it' and was an addiction for me as well, but now just try to go every other day or so to the gym (and not over do it - yep I'm remembering right just how old I am LOL ..I'm getting older at 42 and don't recuperate as fast and injure easier) to keep a little muscle and most importantly to me now, to feel good. I feel so much better when I'm going to the gym and taking care of myself. Lately, it's been slipping though, because once again, this HT obsession has taken over me with the latest Atmos project. Staying up WAY to late at night (like 2AM in the morning) for several night in a row, then getting up early as well. It's starting to take it's toll on me, but I think I've arrived where I want to be with it for a while ...phewwww. Well I take that back lol, there is still a little tweaking I want to do on the BKs/MAs I think. I had taken them out of the miniDSP for various reasons before this Atmos stuff, and may need to put them back through it for a few tweaks here and there.


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## SBuger

Hey @coolrda (if you get this) since we are on subject, have you ever experienced your room maybe sounding a little too dead/dampened with your walls covered? I don't remember if you ever told me what your using on your walls, but you used something velvet like, or a least dark to kill some of the light reflections right? Maybe you used GOM. Also I think you told me that you didn't have any diffusion panels at the time. Still the same or no?


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## coolrda

Beautifully done, SB. Just keeps getting better. You could add diffusors on the back wall and even the ceiling to liven things up a tad. Don't have to add much. Atmos and Audy App to boot. Nice, man.


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## SBuger

coolrda said:


> Beautifully done, SB. Just keeps getting better. You could add diffusors on the back wall and even the ceiling to liven things up a tad. Don't have to add much. Atmos and Audy App to boot. Nice, man.


Thanks cool!! It's getting there for sure. Will definitely try the diffusers. Sounds like it's doing just what you say for Biga6761


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## coolrda

SBuger said:


> Hey @coolrda (if you get this) since we are on subject, have you ever experienced your room maybe sounding a little too dead/dampened with your walls covered? I don't remember if you ever told me what your using on your walls, but you used something velvet like, or a least dark to kill some of the light reflections right? Maybe you used GOM. Also I think you told me that you didn't have any diffusion panels at the time. Still the same or no?


Yep, GOM. No diffusors. 

Yes I've experienced over dampening and it kills a room. Thats why I have a separate 2/3ch and dedicated HT. I've tried forever but you really can't build an all in one music and movies system. Because I'm using a Cinema-type speaker system with wave guides and compression drivers I need a dead room to cut it. A quick decay sounds good. 

Soft domes on the other hand, need some hard surfaces to excel. 

Play around with the waterfalls, reverb and etc function of REW or OM. That'll help you see whats going on and what you need to do to tune it. With Cinema speakers I lean toward dead/dry and with stereo speakers to the live side.


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## SBuger

^^^ Awesome, thanks for the info!!


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## ereed

Wow, finally an upgrade to atmos! I'm not quite there yet! This may just convince me to go atmos sooner or later!

You mentioned room maybe sounded little too dead.....try absorption with built in diffuser for the first reflection points in your room. Something like Alpha 4A panels from GIK acoustics. It absorbs low freq and starts diffusing at higher frequencies so the room sounds lively while absorbing bass to improve decay time as well. At least that is what happened in my room. Also if you do go with alpha panels and you find the front wood part shiny or distracting you can cover it with black GOM material to tame the light reflection if needed. I don't notice it on mine though.

Room is looking great....bet it sounds fantastic also.

I noticed you got some guns there and it shows you work out. I'm a personal trainer so that was the first thing I noticed before the dolby atmos wall art. LOL


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## SBuger

ereed said:


> Wow, finally an upgrade to atmos! I'm not quite there yet! This may just convince me to go atmos sooner or later!
> 
> You mentioned room maybe sounded little too dead.....try absorption with built in diffuser for the first reflection points in your room. Something like Alpha 4A panels from GIK acoustics. It absorbs low freq and starts diffusing at higher frequencies so the room sounds lively while absorbing bass to improve decay time as well. At least that is what happened in my room. Also if you do go with alpha panels and you find the front wood part shiny or distracting you can cover it with black GOM material to tame the light reflection if needed. I don't notice it on mine though.
> 
> Room is looking great....bet it sounds fantastic also.
> 
> I noticed you got some guns there and it shows you work out. I'm a personal trainer so that was the first thing I noticed before the dolby atmos wall art. LOL


Hey thanks man!!

Hmm ...Atmos or Crowsons, tough decision. I know your thinking about both and which one to get first. You wont be disappointed with which ever one you decide to go with first, I can pretty much guarantee it!!  

Absorption panels with built in diffusers might be great in my room, at least for the first reflection points along the front part of the side walls for my L,C, and R speakers. Will definitely keep that in mind. Thanks for the suggestion!

LOL about the guns! Funny, I usually notice stuff like that first too, since fitness etc has always been a big part of my life. Personal Trainer huh ..nice!!! I've thought about doing some of that but just never did. Man I've studied it quite a bit though and have learned a lot over the years about diet, training techniques and what not. I never have competed in body building, but have done the whole bulk up and add some quality muscle (while trying to stay fairly lean and not put on a ton of bodyfat at the same time) then turn around a try to strip out the fat while keeping the newly added muscle. It's pretty easy to understand what it takes and the little tricks here and there, but putting into practice is the hard part sometimes. When trying to get contest lean, it can be very trying towards the end, not only physically, but mentally as well. But I find it fun and really cool to be able to change your body like this and transform it. Occasionally I'll get real lean like that for fun, but most of the time I stay in the 10-12% body fat range this days. I seem to look and feel healthiest in that range.


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## johnnygrandis

Just upgraded myself to 7.2.4 and love it too, great room you got there!


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## SBuger

johnnygrandis said:


> Just upgraded myself to 7.2.4 and love it too, great room you got there!


Hey thanks, you as well on the room!! Awesome you just got Atmos too!!


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## jedimastergrant

Glad to hear you are enjoying the upgrades! I hesitate to hype it up too much since not everyone will be sold on it but I am relieved you are in my camp. 

Love the black out room. Can you use the flash to get some better pics of the room? I know the pic itself will look terrible but at least you will be able to see where the speakers are placed etc. I have tried to take pics of my own front wall and since it has so much velvet it gets really difficult. 

I am very curious about the Audy app. My old 7200 does not have this ability and I am on the verge of utilizing some kind of EQ. Not sure if it will be XT32 or Dirac or manual. 

I hear you on the fitness. My other obsession is crossfit. I try not to talk about it too much because I know people can be really annoying with it. But since you are into fitness I think you understand. It is an amazing stress reliever for me and I feel so much better after a good wod. I have been into it for almost five years and recently turned 40. So I understand about the recovery times and being prone to injury. But, it is a great community of people and I have made many friends through being a member. It is interesting that the other group of friends I have is through my HT hobby and they are awesome folks that understand why I seem to be so obsessed with velvet and dB's, and all the other fun stuff. 

We are very fortunate to get to go down the rabbit hole with these hobbies and share them with other like minded crazy people!


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## SBuger

jedimastergrant said:


> Glad to hear you are enjoying the upgrades! I hesitate to hype it up too much since not everyone will be sold on it but I am relieved you are in my camp.
> 
> Love the black out room. Can you use the flash to get some better pics of the room? I know the pic itself will look terrible but at least you will be able to see where the speakers are placed etc. I have tried to take pics of my own front wall and since it has so much velvet it gets really difficult.
> 
> I am very curious about the Audy app. My old 7200 does not have this ability and I am on the verge of utilizing some kind of EQ. Not sure if it will be XT32 or Dirac or manual.
> 
> I hear you on the fitness. My other obsession is crossfit. I try not to talk about it too much because I know people can be really annoying with it. But since you are into fitness I think you understand. It is an amazing stress reliever for me and I feel so much better after a good wod. I have been into it for almost five years and recently turned 40. So I understand about the recovery times and being prone to injury. But, it is a great community of people and I have made many friends through being a member. It is interesting that the other group of friends I have is through my HT hobby and they are awesome folks that understand why I seem to be so obsessed with velvet and dB's, and all the other fun stuff.
> 
> We are very fortunate to get to go down the rabbit hole with these hobbies and share them with other like minded crazy people!


Hey thanks!! Well you never know I guess. I was pretty darn happy with what I had, since I was already using the front heights with Pllz's and Neo:X, but this is better. I think once I get my room livened up a bit, I'll be even happier. 

You know what, I think that pic actually was with flash. I took a handful with and without, but both looked pretty similar for some reason. I'll see if I can try again. 

Yeah I don't think the 7200 supports the app unfortunately. I was looking into one of those as well, the newer version 7200 (I think that was it anyway) but went with the 6300 instead. So far I'm really impressed with the app. I've never tried Dirac but I'm sure it great. 

Ah nice on the crossfit obsession and fitness! Yes, a bit of fitness activity can be a real nice stress reliever and can also makes one feel better. It makes a lot of things better actually once you get into the mode of it. It seems like there is a lot of us 40 (ish) year olds around here lol  Nice!! I think this fitness stuff will definitely keep up feeling and looking younger longer, even at 40 and over  

I agree, yes it's really is nice to have this place to do just what you say ...share our passion for this stuff with other like minded crazy folks!! Ik now I sure enjoy it and have learned a lot from it as well.


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## ereed

SBuger said:


> You know what, I think that pic actually was with flash. I took a handful with and without, but both looked pretty similar for some reason. I'll see if I can try again.


That's the beauty of black velvet!


----------



## unretarded

Black Velvet please !


----------



## SBuger

So a bit of a follow up after having Atmos for a week or so ...

Man, I am loving this Atmos stuff and new Denon AVR!!!!! Like I think I said before, I was REALLY happy with my 5.1 + front heights with my older Onkyo with PLIIz and Neo:X, but this is definitely better. Not only is the Atmos and total immersion better with all the speakers, but the new Denon just sounds a little better by itself as well. I had to hook up the Onkyo the other day because I was curious about something. While I was checking that out, I noticed one thing for sure and really stood out to me - the front soundstage is bigger, wider, has more depth and is a little more seamless than on the Onkyo which kind of surprised me. Also the overall sound is just a little more rich sounding, more textured (while still smooth if that makes since), and has better pans (smoother, fuller and more realistic). So that made me happy 

Also, this MultEQ Editors App is awesome! For starters I like the process better on the phone vs AVR. I turn my projector off for calibration to help limit noise, so the GUI on the App through the IPhone is way cool. But, what I like most about it I think is that I think it sounds better than using Audyssey through the AVR. It's warmer and not as edgy to listen too. Creamier maybe is the word I'm looking for, IDK. But its there and its better. There is a difference in graphs as well, so I'm sure this is a major reflection of this. The app does a better job in the 500-10,000khz area and doesn't boost the 4k and up as much. Definitely easier on the ears and sounds FULLER. 

So now, really the only thing I'm tweaking with the Editor App is selecting the roll off number 2 instead of one. I'm really liking this one over roll of number 1. My ears are pretty sensitive to high frequency and this really helps. It's not as edgy and still keeps all the detail it seems. So that's pretty darn cool as well.

That said there is one thing that I don't care for with the App, and that is it rolls of my FR below 20hz to about 12hz. It puts a dip in it. It's not a huge problem because I tweak with a miniDSP anyway post Audy, so I just boost this back up and move my LS that I use preAudy of 6db @20hz Q1 to 7db @24hz Q1 and boost 12-17hz back up some and totally fixes the problem and gives me a very slight rising house curve as well. All is good after this, but if I dint have an external DSP devise, this would not be too cool. All is good though with the miniDSP post tweaks and is well worth having to do this. 

So with all of that said, I've been doing some rearranging and some fine tuning/tweaking. I know it never seems to end with me LOL ...but I'm loving my latest arrangement and cal. I've moved my FF subs back to the rear corners (as you'll be able to see in the pics) and also put my Rythmik FV15HP up front to help fill in a 28-34hz dip that I get with my subs in the back. Sill using one subout for all seems to be working great in this square modal room. It's kind of tricky but I think I've got it down now and what works best in it  So I've now got 5 subs and 11 speakers spread out in this little 13x13x8 room. There is not much room for anything more unless I start stacking lol. 

So here are my latest graphs that I really like the sound of with the new sub arrangements and tweaks + the AudyAPP with roll off #2 . Pretty flat across the board with that 2k dip - MidRangeComp that Audy puts in (which can be enabled or disabled for any of the speakers with the Editors App). Also I'm running a very, very slight rising house curve. RED is All Subs Only (because it's so easy to get this reading now since I've switched to HDMI for REW on the mac) then varying sub boots combined with Left, Center, and Right front channels. I tend to run my subs like the ones with about 12-15db boost above the speakers (with no DEQ) on the majority of movie material. 










Next, I rearranged my Side Surrounds and Back Surrounds a bit. I had my Side Surrounds a bit in front of me before trying to help combat hot spotting and it worked pretty good. But, thought I would try moving them 90 degrees to me, but had to raise them more so that they are not firing directly into my ear at ear level. Also they have to be higher at 90 degrees to clear heads if someone is watching a movie with me. Then I tried to move the Back Surrounds a little more behind me and toed in more toward me as well. Plus I raised them a little too, since my Side Surrounds are higher now. I know they are supposed to be lower to give more separation between the top higher and surrounds, but man, it's sounding great to me this way. Very immersive and pretty darn seamless which is what I'm after. So here are a few pics to try to show this and also tried to get some brighter pics so hopefully you can see it better than my last photos of it @jedimastergrant I took the door off to let a little more light in the room. Flash doesn't seem to help much in this room. 

Before moving my Side Surrounds to 90 and raising them ..









After moving them to 90 and raising them ...









And one more shot that shows a bit of the front speakers and drop down AT Screen to give some perspective 









So with all of that, I'm REALLY loving Atmos and my latest config. I'm gonna really try hard to stop tweaking things now. I do still need to run my BKs and MA back though the mini for a little fine tuning and a bit more boost around 16-25hz, but may not even mess with that for a while. I demoed parts of Justice League, Transformers:LTK and Batman Vs Superman today and was pure JOY!!  I use these after tweaking because I'm so familiar with them and they are fantastic sound tracks. I got fully lost in the scenes and was only listening at about -20db ( I normally don't go much over -12db as its darn pretty loud in this little room). It's so fun trying to take in all the sounds and nuances coming from everywhere. I feel the same way about the sound now that I do with the visuals on good 3D material setting at my close distance, meaning its so fun to try to take it all in (eye candy and now ear candy ) The two can combine for a pretty cool and realistic experience. 

So about the diffusers to help liven up my room a little. I haven't tried any yet, but honestly after my demos today and new arrangements, I don't know that I even need them. But will probably still try them because I'm sure my room could stand to be a little livelier (its a pretty dead room with all my black velvet). But with all the speakers surrounding me, it didn't seem that way at all to me today. 

I've got about $900 I can spend on diffusers and bass traps, but also REALLY need a player that can play these 4K discs. My Oppo 103 wont and need to pick up a 203. Luckily I can play the normal Blu Rays that have Atmos tracks). But darn it I missed the boat by just a little bit on the 203. I could have picked one up from Amazon for 560 last week and now they are gone. Only ones available are used and they are going for around $800-900 . Kicking myself in the butt now. Then I need to list my 103 that will hopefully help pay for the 203.


----------



## Nalleh

Awsome update, man. Yes, sure there is many ways to setup speakers and have Atmos work, even if there are guidelines, they are just guidelines. How it sounds in your room, for your taste is key, so experimenting is important. Since your MLP is near the backwall, your rear height will be at a higher angle, so raising your surrounds is no problem. The seperation between ear level and heights is the important thing here.

And awsome graphs man, it must sound heavenly 

Yup, if you must have the OPPO 203, you are kind of late to the game  bit as i have said, there are other options for a UHD player, like the much cheaper XBOX ONE S or X. And the Panasonic UB900 i haid earlier was sweet too.

But as it is, you should have no problems enjoying yourself immensly in that room


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Awsome update, man. Yes, sure there is many ways to setup speakers and have Atmos work, even if there are guidelines, they are just guidelines. How it sounds in your room, for your taste is key, so experimenting is important. Since your MLP is near the backwall, your rear height will be at a higher angle, so raising your surrounds is no problem. The seperation between ear level and heights is the important thing here.
> 
> And awsome graphs man, it must sound heavenly
> 
> Yup, if you must have the OPPO 203, you are kind of late to the game  bit as i have said, there are other options for a UHD player, like the much cheaper XBOX ONE S or X. And the Panasonic UB900 i haid earlier was sweet too.
> 
> But as it is, you should have no problems enjoying yourself immensly in that room


Hey thanks my good friend!! I think I've finally arrived at about 95% of where I want to be  Some bass trapping to help with my 30hz dip on my VNF subs maybe and possibly some diffusion panels. Then of course 4K vid, but I'm not worried at all about that right now, I'm perfectly happy my vid ATM. 

Yes, darn it I wish I wasn't so dead set on having to have the OPPO 203. I love my 103 and works so well with my BK's and MAs run out of the analog sub out. I like using it for them for many reasons, so I'd really like to get another Oppo, since I've got to have a different player to play the 4k discs, and even ripped MKV files from those 4k discs. It works so well on them from the bass management in the the Oppo itself to set them up, and leaves them untouched by Audy, as well as how great the remote works to adjust intensity on the fly (which I love and use a fair amount on certain movies). I wish I liked running my MAs and BK's out of the AVR as much as the Oppo, but hasn't been my experience so far. I wouldn't mind having an XBox but doubt it will be as good as the Oppo for the MAs/TTs, if it even has an analog sub out with bass management adjustability. The Panasonic might. I'll have to look in to these before I spend probably way to much on a used Oppo 203. Thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Hey thanks my good friend!! I think I've finally arrived at about 95% of where I want to be  Some bass trapping to help with my 30hz dip on my VNF subs maybe and possibly some diffusion panels. Then of course 4K vid, but I'm not worried at all about that right now, I'm perfectly happy my vid ATM.
> 
> Yes, darn it I wish I wasn't so dead set on having to have the OPPO 203. I love my 103 and works so well with my BK's and MAs run out of the analog sub out. I like using it for them for many reasons, so I'd really like to get another Oppo, since I've got to have a different player to play the 4k discs, and even ripped MKV files from those 4k discs. It works so well on them from the bass management in the the Oppo itself to set them up, and leaves them untouched by Audy, as well as how great the remote works to adjust intensity on the fly (which I love and use a fair amount on certain movies). I wish I liked running my MAs and BK's out of the AVR as much as the Oppo, but hasn't been my experience so far. I wouldn't mind having an XBox but doubt it will be as good as the Oppo for the MAs/TTs, if it even has an analog sub out with bass management adjustability. The Panasonic might. I'll have to look in to these before I spend probably way to much on a used Oppo 203. Thanks for the suggestion!


Well, it is nice to still have some room for improvement, right? What to do the day it is ALL DONE ??

A 203 would o of course be the best: can be made zone free, BD, UHD, analog 7.1 out etc, and you could then sell the 103, but getting it might be the problem.
Looked into the (digital) manual i still have on the UB900, and altough it has 7.1 analog out, it seems if you activate those, then HDMI sound out will be deactivated. So no Atmos then! So that is a bummer right there.

But there will always be compromizes......

But both the UB900 and XBOX S/X are awsome UHD players, nevertheless.


----------



## Nalleh

Then again, just bite the bullet and pre-eq before Audyssey.
This is what i got yesterday, after using the app to run a few tries to "bypass" audyssey on the LFE signal. So a pretty straight signal to the MA’s.










I just setup the app for left and right front speaker + SUB, and it took no time at all to run a calib, adjust the curve, run another calib, check, adjust, run again, check......

Easy peasy with the app 

PS: and as you can see, Audyssey doesn’t impact my sub 20 hz output


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## ereed

@SBuger two words....BASS TRAPS!


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## SBuger

@Nalleh - Hey thanks for checking that out on the UB900. And oh yeah, I forgot about the analog subout needing to be active at the same time as HDMI, which the Oppo does. I think I may have found a used 203 for a decent price, we’ll see.

Nice on what you accomplished there with pre eq and the app. It looks very close for sure. And yep, the app kicks butt!!

Damn nice graph and extension! That’s great that the app doesn’t affect your below 20hz output like it does on mine. Crazy mine does that because it’s pretty flat on it’s own from about 26hz down to 7-8hz with pre Audy LS applied in the MiniDSP. Then it puts a pretty good dip between 12-20hz with the app (I think I saw somewhere in the App thread that other users experienced this as well) Audy through the AVR doesn’t do this, so not sure what’s up with that. Oh well I guess, I can fix it like I described in my last update post. Although that just means more dsp’ing. I’m sure the less the better in the long run, but it is what it is and gets me where it needs to be. Worth it to use the app though because I think it sounds better overall and gives so much flexibility.

So, I may be able to get it done like your saying if I decided to use the AVR for my MAs and BKs but will be tough because of my challenging in room response before Audy. Yes I do use some PEQ pre Audy to the best of my ability to get it close, but still Audy does some work around that 27hz area and above that. It can somehow work some magic that I can’t do alone with the miniDSP. This along with that darn 13-20hz dip that the App puts in my FR will most definitely affect my MAs/BKs. unfortunately. I’ve found that even the tiniest little bit them can affect the way they feel, the crispness etc. Even a boost or cut of 1db and is part of the reason I took mine completely out of the miniDSP. Gonna mess with that again though because I may need a little bit of a bump in the 16-25hz area on them and see how it feels. 

So, this and like I was saying, I just love the easy ‘on the fly’ control with the Oppo remote for intensity level which I use a fair amount on certain movies/demo material. There are drawbacks to using the Oppo though, one being that I’m limited to using the MAs/BKs with content only through the Oppo. I’m cool with that for now, but if I ever get into games, I wouldn’t be able to use


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## SBuger

ereed said:


> @SBuger two words....BASS TRAPS!


Yeah I'm thinking they could very good in my room and may help some with my 30hz dip on my VNfs, plus minimize over all peaks and dips pre Audy, plus of course help with decay times and tightness etc, although I'm pretty happy with tightness as is, but could always be better i'm sure.


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## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> [MENTION=8624290]
> 
> Then it puts a pretty good dip between 12-20hz with the app (I think I saw somewhere in the App thread that other users experienced this as well)


Presicely, it did that on mine too, so i had to put in i think a - 5dB peq around 17 hz, to counteract what Aud did. This way Aud left it alone. I am ok with Aud boosting slightly, but not the opposite 

There are some discrepensies above 50-60hz, but i didn’t bother about it, since the MA’s are lowpassed at 70hz anyway.


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## SBuger

nalleh said:


> presicely, it did that on mine too, so i had to put in i think a - 5db filter around 17 hz, to counteract what aud did. This way aud left it alone. *i am ok with aud boosting slightly, but not the opposite *
> 
> there are some discrepensies above 50-60hz, but i didn’t bother about it, since the ma’s are lowpassed at 70hz anyway.


For sure, I hear that!!!!


----------



## SBuger

Got an Oppo 203 coming. YAY!!  I signed up on Oppo site or the list for if and when available and got the link to order one late today. Went to the link and page said no more left so couldn’t add to cart. I emailed to ask and was told they just sold out a few minutes prior and was told I could call as there may be one or two still left in the office. And sure enough, lucked out and snagged one!!   

Very, very happy about this, as my heart sank when the link wouldn’t let me order one. So got a new one for $549 and didn’t have to pay the outrageous prices on ebay etc. 

This cuts into my $900 that I was planning to use towards my diffusers and bass traps, but will hopefully recoup some of it back when I sell the 103 and will still give me about 700 to work with I think, plus will have the OPPO 203 that I SOOOOO wanted. Very worth it me thinks


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## Nalleh

AWSOOOOOME!! That is great news indeed. The best option available, as you can get by with just the one OPPO player for all needs.

I had the 103 and the UB900 for BD(and zonefree BD) and UHD, but got a slightly used 203 zonefree, and could sell both the other players, almost breaking even 

Don’t you just love it when a plan comes together?

(Anyone remember who used to say that?)


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## jedimastergrant

Nalleh said:


> AWSOOOOOME!! That is great news indeed. The best option available, as you can get by with just the one OPPO player for all needs.
> 
> I had the 103 and the UB900 for BD(and zonefree BD) and UHD, but got a slightly used 203 zonefree, and could sell both the other players, almost breaking even
> 
> Don’t you just love it when a plan comes together?
> 
> (Anyone remember who used to say that?)


Was it the A Team leader guy? I didn't look it up and barely saw the show so I could be wrong.


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## jedimastergrant

Thanks for the pics. I can see a bit better what you have going on there. 

Glad the app is working for you. It sounds easy to use and I am kinda jealous. 

I think you will like the 203. I have only had maybe 2 lock ups and I had one on release day. That is a pretty good track record. The HDR tone mapping is not perfect but it is an improvement over nothing and cheaper than a custom calibration since you will already have the player.


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## Nalleh

jedimastergrant said:


> Was it the A Team leader guy? I didn't look it up and barely saw the show so I could be wrong.


Correct. Loved that show, LOL.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> AWSOOOOOME!! That is great news indeed. The best option available, as you can get by with just the one OPPO player for all needs.
> 
> I had the 103 and the UB900 for BD(and zonefree BD) and UHD, but got a slightly used 203 zonefree, and could sell both the other players, almost breaking even
> 
> Don’t you just love it when a plan comes together?
> 
> (Anyone remember who used to say that?)


Thanks Nalleh!! Nice, that worked out great on your 203 then 

LOL, yep always nice when a plan comes together …it does happen sometimes


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## SBuger

jedimastergrant said:


> Thanks for the pics. I can see a bit better what you have going on there.
> 
> Glad the app is working for you. It sounds easy to use and I am kinda jealous.
> 
> I think you will like the 203. I have only had maybe 2 lock ups and I had one on release day. That is a pretty good track record. The HDR tone mapping is not perfect but it is an improvement over nothing and cheaper than a custom calibration since you will already have the player.


Hey thanks man!

No prob on the pics, still not great but better.

Yeah that App is pretty darn good I think, but not a must over Audy XT32 in the AVR if your AVR doesn’t support it, although I did like the way it sounded better compared to the AVR Audy. In a different room I may feel differently, as mine is pretty challenging and the two seem to attack it a little differently and definitely give different results. Then again, maybe it's just on this model AVR that I prefer it on, IDK. The Audy XT32 on my Onkyo sounded closer (which I loved) to the apps sound on the 6300H and also the FR looked more similar as well. Honestly, I didn't really care for the sound I got from Audy through the 6300h itself nearly as much, as it was a little too thin and harsh sounding in comparison in the voices/dialog area (at least in my room), but I sure liked it my 5010 Onkyo's XT32. 

Maybe they will allow the App to work with the 7200 at some point. Are you using XT32 on it currently? I know you said you were looking into something, Dirac, manual, or XT32.

Nice on the 203!


----------



## unretarded

The sound is something to behold......



https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Cave-D...hash=item1c9becf88d:m:mpXCyRzLZbKUXat1e9mwrOA


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## SBuger

^^^ Cool I'll have to pick up a copy of that. Probably way cool with all those cave and underwater sounds! I bet DSU will do a hell of a job on it with the overheads. At first I thought Neural X was more aggressive (was unknowingly applying to a true Atmos track when I first checked it out (and was WAY to much and funky/bright) but on a non Atmos track like they are meant for, I'm finding DSU more aggressive, at least in the top hight channels. Maybe not quite as discrete sounding or something, but bigger overall. I'm really liking both though actually.

Cant wait to check out the new 'Matrix' Atmos mix too whenever I get the player. Super excited about that one! Pretty excited about Dredd's Atmos mix and Serenity's DTS:x as well  And Spiderman Homecoming, TIH dts:x


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## unretarded

While that movie is just 5.1 with the DSU applied, it is more like what everyone expected Atmos to be like.


Bump the surrounds and ceiling speaks up 3 or 4 DB and enjoy, the bass aint bad either.


I have had MMFR, blair witch with and a few other good Atmos titles I demo for people, but when I put in the cave, it gets by far the most comments and people tapping out because it is sensory overload....LOL


I will go back thru it and write down the settings from calibrated, I adjusted and how much DB in each speaker.....yeah, it is no longer the directors intent, by it is a crazy soundfield to hear......it still blows me away that every speaker is working that much at the same time for that long...…...


I sounds good, but a couple DB here and there and it changes from good to crazy...….

EDIT:

Ok, here is what I did, your room may vary, but this gives you a idea......



From calibrated...…..
-4 db center
-1 db left and right
+2db ceiling
+4db rears



That takes it from a very good surround mix, to a over the top sensory overload...….

I did not mention sub levels because I already know you will have them plenty loud and if they are not, you know what to do....lol


----------



## Nalleh

Hey, Bug check this out, can’t believe i haven’t thought about this before: regarding leaving a flat signal to the MA’s, you just edit the filter frequency range for the subwoofer to minimum, or in this case 20hz ! That would leave the LFE untouched 

Here is a pic, i left it a 40hz to be easier to see/understand.


----------



## SBuger

unretarded said:


> While that movie is just 5.1 with the DSU applied, it is more like what everyone expected Atmos to be like.
> 
> 
> Bump the surrounds and ceiling speaks up 3 or 4 DB and enjoy, the bass aint bad either.
> 
> 
> I have had MMFR, blair witch with and a few other good Atmos titles I demo for people, but when I put in the cave, it gets by far the most comments and people tapping out because it is sensory overload....LOL
> 
> 
> I will go back thru it and write down the settings from calibrated, I adjusted and how much DB in each speaker.....yeah, it is no longer the directors intent, by it is a crazy soundfield to hear......it still blows me away that every speaker is working that much at the same time for that long...…...
> 
> 
> I sounds good, but a couple DB here and there and it changes from good to crazy...….
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Ok, here is what I did, your room may vary, but this gives you a idea......
> 
> 
> 
> From calibrated...…..
> -4 db center
> -1 db left and right
> +2db ceiling
> +4db rears
> 
> 
> 
> That takes it from a very good surround mix, to a over the top sensory overload...….
> 
> I did not mention sub levels because I already know you will have them plenty loud and if they are not, you know what to do....lol



Awesome, will try that out for sure on The Cave!! Will pick up the DVD unless I can find a Blu Ray version of it. 

oh yeah ...I know how to bump sub levels if a certain flick it needs it LOL


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Hey, Bug check this out, can’t believe i haven’t thought about this before: regarding leaving a flat signal to the MA’s, you just edit the filter frequency range for the subwoofer to minimum, or in this case 20hz ! That would leave the LFE untouched
> 
> Here is a pic, i left it a 40hz to be easier to see/understand.


Hey thanks for this! I was messing around with the app the other day and saw that and was wishing that it could go from the bottom up as well, and cut it off about 20hz or so and keep the above active. That way it wouldn't be putting that dip in my response in the 12-18hz range that has to brought back up with mini or even in the app itself. 

But yes, should work awesome on the MA's for an untouched signal. Is this what you are doing for yours? 

Except I've got all my subs on one subout now, and would need to calibrate with both subouts active to be able to do this in the app for the other subout, but doable. I probably wouldn't be opposed to trying out the MA's/BK's again with the AVR subout. Man I'm just so used to them being on the Oppo subout though, that it'll be weird, it sure was the last time I tried it LOL. But hey, if its good then cool


----------



## Nalleh

Right, your problem was below 20hz, so it might not help. But it should make a flat signal above 20hz 

Only thing is you have to EQ your subs manually after, but i do that anyway.

I haven’t tried it yet, but will see if i can this weekend 

There is a way to have seperate level control of your MA’s even if you use only the AVR for LFE.

Use both sub outputs from your AVR to your Minidsp(in1 and in2), then send both to the same output(one of yor subs) then run Aud. This way it eq both sub outs the same, and then afterwards you send one to subs and one to MA’s. This way you can control MA level from AVR under option>channel level.

Do you understand what i mean?


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## SBuger

Oh yeah gotcha. Yep then would have subout level control through the AVR sub trim for the MAs, just like the other subout that the subs are on. 

Let me know how it goes if you try it this weekend. Should work like a charm I would think. If I ever try my Mas/Bks through my AVR again, this is exactly how I’ll do it. So thanks for bringing this up!


----------



## ereed

@SBuger just curious how tall your ceilings are and how far the spread is from front to back atmos speakers as well as side to side?


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## SBuger

ereed said:


> @SBuger just curious how tall your ceilings are and how far the spread is from front to back atmos speakers as well as side to side?


Ceiling: 8'
Top Atmos Speakers Side to Side Spread: 7' apart (actually so are my mains).
Top Atmos Speakers Front to Back Spread: 5' apart (or real close to that, maybe a hair farther)

Kind of a low ceiling for the way I have the book shelf speakers mounted, but seems to work well. I don't know if you followed any of my latest updates, but I had raised my surrounds more because I wanted my SS's to be 90 degrees and needed to clear heads (and wanted to check it out as well) but I ended up moving them back down to 39" (tweeter) off the floor and a little ahead of me again along with some other cool techniques I just learned about. Will post about it when I update next along with the TREATMENTS!!  Will probably be a couple weeks or so before I can get them in a messed with, I'm pretty excited though! 

You getting ready to go Atmos?


----------



## ereed

SBuger said:


> Ceiling: 8'
> Top Atmos Speakers Side to Side Spread: 7' apart (actually so are my mains).
> Top Atmos Speakers Front to Back Spread: 5' apart (or real close to that, maybe a hair farther)
> 
> Kind of a low ceiling for the way I have the book shelf speakers mounted, but seems to work well. I don't know if you followed any of my latest updates, but I had raised my surrounds more because I wanted my SS's to be 90 degrees and needed to clear heads (and wanted to check it out as well) but I ended up moving them back down to 39" (tweeter) off the floor and a little ahead of me again along with some other cool techniques I just learned about. Will post about it when I update next along with the TREATMENTS!!  Will probably be a couple weeks or so before I can get them in a messed with, I'm pretty excited though!
> 
> You getting ready to go Atmos?


I'm still contemplating it....and playing around with placement just to see how speakers would look in the room if and when I go atmos. I was trying to do the math but it seems your atmos spread is very different than what I came up with mine. Your front to back is 5 feet....but on mine it came out to be 10 feet with 6 feet left to right which is a foot inside main speakers. I'm using 45 degree from MLP which is distance to ears to ceiling (5 ft)....then add that distance forward and rear to get total of 10 feet front to back. So I'm just curious how you got 5 feet on yours for front to back? So that means your ears to ceilings are 2.5 feet in distance???


I really want atmos...just need funds for speakers and new prepro and player. lol 

My side surrounds are about 3 inches behind me when seated and I liked it better that way than exactly 90 degree or slightly forward. Pretty much followed the Dolby book. lol Glad you like it better that way also.


----------



## SBuger

^^^

Well don’t go by my measurements for a good example, as mine is a very small room and I’m somewhat limited for ideal angles and distances. I think my width is fine and are spaced the same as my front mains (which when I mounted them I think that’s what I read was recommended, but saw someone recently in the Atmos thread talking about the ideal and that was – set at the MLP then turn left 45 degrees, then point up at 45 degrees and that is where your left top front should go on the ceiling and the same when doing that to the right top front as well. Then apply that to the rear as well for the top rear speakers by going 45 degrees past 90 behind you etc. 

So I don’t think my 5’ spread from front to back is exactly optimal, but seems pretty fantastic to me, but I also don’t know any better and is the first time I’ve ever experienced Atmos. My top fronts could be moved forward easy enough but I kind of wanted them to be the same distance in front of me as my top rears are behind me. My top rears are as far back as they can go on the ceiling. So yep, about 2.5 ‘ in front of me up above on the ceiling and 2.5’ behind me up above on the ceiling. 

I’ve been told by folks (and the expert @Nalleh) that those guidelines are great starting points to try to go by and as long as you don’t stray too crazy far away, it should be fine, and that with Atmos - your trying to ‘fill in the holes’ kind of. I think that’s what he said anyway  I think you can only do so much with placement sometimes in some rooms and hopefully you can still get a real nice Atmos effect. I’m sure mine could be better in a bigger room, but I’m sure not complaining  I just need some diffusion going on to help liven up my dead room a little from all the velvet. 

Yeah, I hear ya on the funds man! On my treatments I’m gonna have to do two rounds to eventually get all that I want and need. I’ve probably spent way to much lately and am still not done ….sigh!

So, about my side surrounds, it’s not really that I like them better a little ahead of me opposed to 90 or a little behind me. It’s just that my room kind of calls for it I think. It’s small and I’m pretty close to my back wall, so by moving them behind me just a bit, I feel that they are too close to my surround backs and not enough spacing between them. Wouldn’t be a problem if I could move my surround backs closer together behind me on the back wall, but not going to happen since I have to be able to get into my little closet area quite often. So, I have to have them spread farther apart behind me. Also, if I have my side surrounds at 90, I have to have them higher to clear the head next to me if someone is watching movies with me. I was ok with that and sounded good, but just ended up wanting them lower for a few different reasons, so I moved them back in front of me a little bit and lower, just enough to be in front of someone’s head setting next to me. But the way my surround backs are positioned, and having the side surrounds ahead of me a little, they both cover the area pretty good. 

It’s nice that you have some space to work with and should be able to position all speakers pretty optimally according the Atmos guidelines if that’s what you want.


----------



## ereed

That explains it…..I was just mostly concerned if I was measuring it wrong on my part. I think I finally got atmos measurements figured out and I do have the space for it....just need the funds to pull the trigger. I bet your room sounds fantastic and it will even improve once you get those bass traps in there.


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Let me know how it goes if you try it this weekend. Should work like a charm I would think.


Yup, that trick worked like a charm  I set filter frequenzy range for subwoofer to minimum, and Audyssey left it alone


----------



## SBuger

ereed said:


> That explains it…..I was just mostly concerned if I was measuring it wrong on my part. I think I finally got atmos measurements figured out and I do have the space for it....just need the funds to pull the trigger. I bet your room sounds fantastic and it will even improve once you get those bass traps in there.



Cool.

Thanks, the sound is getting there I think. I'll be surprised if the treatments don't make a real big diff.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Yup, that trick worked like a charm  I set filter frequenzy range for subwoofer to minimum, and Audyssey left it alone


Very cool!, Glad to see this. I may have to try this, as my TTs and MAs feel a bit different with the new 203 Oppo vs the 103 and haven't decided if I totally like it or not. I think it's mainly a levels/intensity thing in certain areas or something. Cant quite put my finger on it. I seem to be having some other troubles with the player too, but just haven't had enough time to play with it enough yet. It got way too late too fast last night. 

It sometimes seems that nothing is ever easy ..grrrrr!  I'm sure it was the anger and frustration talking at the end of it all last night, but I found myself wanting ALL of my old stuff back LOL Hopefully I'll feel differently later today or tomorrow when I can mess with it some more.


----------



## Nalleh

Oh, so you got the 203 already, that was fast. Nice.

Strange that there should be a difference? Did you check all settings in the speaker menus of both players? Crossover, delays etc? Unless there is some new settings available on the 203, i don’t see a reason they should sound any different.

What you could do is connect a subwoofer(as in speaker not MA) to the LFE analog out and run a REW sweep. Then switch the player and do the same thing again.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Yep, didn’t take too long, got it in Saturday (yesterday)  I feel lucky to have gotten one from Oppo (like one of the last ones from their office) and didn’t have to pay the crazy ebay prices or still waiting to hopefully get lucky on one from the classifieds  

I love getting new home theater goodies (who doesn’t right lol), doesn’t matter what it is either, it’s still exciting  that said, I was perfectly happy with my Oppo 103 though, but needed a 4K player so I could get the Atmos tracks now that are mostly included on the 4K discs only. I’m not 4K yet, but have been able to play a good number of Atmos tracks from some of my standard Blu Rays, which sure has been nice but have some new 4k movies on disc that I haven’t even been able to check out yet without a 4K player, or even play the handful of 4K movies that I have in MKV format. But can now 

A few pics ..Oppo sure packages their players nicely:


















The 203 has a nice new look and background change from the 103, which is a nice change:









A shot of a few of my MKV files on my external drive hooked up to the Oppo via USB. I've got about 200 or so that I've ripped. It's in folder format though so not fancy, but works pretty darn good making them all real easy to get at. 









So anyway @Nalleh - about all my complaining the other night, I think it was too late last night and I got tired. I didn’t start on it all until after midnight lol. So, it wasn’t as bad as I was saying, but there is a difference on the MAs/BKs through the 203 vs 103 through its subout. I checked it out today and it seems to only be a levels difference though of pretty much exactly 4db, just going by feel (no VS or trying it with the subs in the Oppo’s sub outs with REW like you were saying to check). Once I picked it up 4 db more, all was good and felt pretty much identical. 

Whenever I get new equipment or make any tweaks, I always demo lots of sections in Justice League, Transformers: The Last Knight, and Blade Runner 2049 (which are all Atmos Tracks) and then Pirates of the Caribbean: DMTNT (just the normal DTS-HD 7.1 since I don’t have the Atmos track)). Fantastic tracks and I’m super familiar with them, so it makes it easy to tell any differences. So, once I bumped the intensity of them up 4 more db, it felt glorious to me again on these tracks  Crazy how 4 more db can make such a difference.

I’m still having a few issues with the player in other areas, but at least I got that figured out. Will work on the other 2. The first one is that occasionally I’ll get a no signal HDMI blue screen. The only way to fix it is to restart the Oppo AND the projector. It used to happen occasionally with my Oppo 103 as well but was seldom. And when it did happen, I just had to power ioff and back on the Oppo, not the projector too. So not sure what’s up with that. Maybe I need a different HDMI cable, IDK. 

The other problem I seem to be having (and maybe this is common with non 4k 1080p projectors, IDK) is that the highlights with the 4k video on my 1080p projector seem to be blown out sometimes and may look a little soft and strange sometimes. it’s not always this way on a few that I tried it on, but there is definitely something going on there. Will have to check out some more 4K’s to see if I get more of this. Maybe this is kind of what @jedimastergrant was talking about with occasional tone mapping issues on the 203. Maybe its not related at all though and is an HDR thing and only works right on a true 4K display, IDK.

@Nalleh – are you running a 4k projector or still 1080p? If 1080p, do you experience any of this? There might be a setting I can turn off in the Oppo 203’s setup menu to stop this, hopefully. As is (at least on the two films I tried it on) the standard Blu 1080p video is much preferred (which I’m super happy with on my 1080p projector). 

Maybe I’ll ask about this in the Oppo thread as well.


----------



## Nalleh

LOL. Yes i figured it was a settings problem with the LFE output, nice you got it fixed 

Well, with the 203(and of course every component with HDCP 2.2) there is bound to be HDMI problems. This new standard are a nightmare to begin with, even if every component in the chain IS HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 compliant, much less if you have one that is not.

As opposed to the rumors when 4K player starting to arrive that you would get a blank screen if not everything was 4K HDCP 2.2, the player does instead downscale to 1080P rec709 ie. regular bluray. So you can use them even if your tv/projector wasn’t 4K.

However, the downscaling might be different than a bluray version, depending on the player.

I have a JVC RS600, which is HDCP2.2 compliant, meaning the 203 send a 4K HDR picture, and as such do not alter the signal.

But when you mention it, i seem to recall someone saying the same thing you do, that a downscaled 4K image might not look the same as the BD version.

But when it comes to the picture side of the home theater world, i am NOT an expert, i am more of a sound guy, haha, so i can not help you there, but checking out the 203 thread would be the next step. Very competent guys in that thread 

Rearding the no HDMI blue screen this might also be under the HDCP area of problems. Even if you only run 1080, i wouldn’t dismiss that the HDMI cables could be the problem. I managed to find a unlightly source of good 4K cables, long ones at that, right here in Norway, from something equivalent of your Walmart i guess, but they sent the full 4K HDR 60frames picture, so i was surpised, at a mere $25 for 16ft it was a nobrainer, LOL.

But that might also be answered in the OPPO thread.


----------



## SBuger

Well I've got some good news, some bad news, and then some good news (well pretty good) LOL

*The good news* - Got a new HDMI cable and seems to have totally solved my 'HDMI no signal' blank blue screen with my new Oppo 203 to my Epson 1080p projector that would happen sometimes. Was an HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 compliant issue I think like @Nalleh said it might be (thanks man!). So I'm VERY happy about that. 

*The bad news* - 4 x 18" subs and 1 15" sub in a sealed 13x13x8 room on suspended floor + quad BK LFE's and quad Crowson MAs = not good for windows. Lots of bass and lots of floor and wall movement took its toll on this one I think 



















*Some good news* - it was just the inside top portion of the window that came loose and out of its place. I just went ahead and took it out since it's probable that it will just happen again. Seems to be just fine with it out of there as the outside window is in tack and looks/feels sturdy. It wont be as efficient as far as windows go, but I've got the window stuffed with quite a bit so should be fine (I hope). It'll probably happen to my other 2 windows in my room as well eventually, but hopefully not for a while, then I'll deal with it when it does I guess. I'll put it (or them) back in right whenever we move (whenever that is - we want to build a house (and a theater of course ) one of these days). But for now I'm back in business 

Was so weird to have some light shining in when I had the velvet and stuff out of the window to get to it. I snapped a shot of the room with a little more light than usual in it


----------



## Nalleh

WOW, Holy Testicle Tuesday man! Never seen that before, LOL. Lucky it didn’t break.

And nice about the HDMI cable solving the blank screen problem


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Thanks, yes very relieved about the HDMI cable. 

Yeah I’m really glad the window didn’t break!


----------



## biga6761

Nalleh said:


> Correct. Loved that show, LOL.
> 
> https://youtu.be/FPQlXNH36mI


Grew up on the A-Team and absolutely love it. It and Knight Rider are tied with a few others as my favorite show of all time.


----------



## SBuger

Oh dang ....I hate it when huge boxes filled with Home Theater goodies shows up on the front door step LOL   










And my daughters reaction when I told her to come check out what the FED EX dude left at our door step. Priceless!!  I think she loves getting packages as much as I do hahahaha. It's probably not healthy and is as addicting as Home Theater itself!  It's almost as good as Christmas, well maybe even better LOL


----------



## biga6761

SBuger said:


> Oh dang ....I hate it when huge boxes filled with Home Theater goodies shows up on the front door step LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And my daughters reaction when I told her to come check out what the FED EX dude left at our door step. Priceless!!  I think she loves getting packages as much as I do hahahaha. It's probably not healthy and is as addicting as Home Theater itself!  It's almost as good as Christmas, well maybe even better LOL


Oh man! Such an exciting feeling, having a shipment like that show up on the door step. And that's not even considering the effect what's inside those boxes is going to have on the performance of your rig. Really looking forward to the day I can place a proper GIK order like that, and oh shiz I want to hear my room after so damn bad! 

Hell at this point I'm dying to hear how yours sounds once everything is deployed. I've always had a thing for your setup Shelby but you really have pushed it over the top this time.

Waiting..... not so patiently, for another update and some impressions. Lol and have fun with it, if nothing else! 

Sent from my SM-J727T1 using Tapatalk


----------



## SBuger

biga6761 said:


> Oh man! Such an exciting feeling, having a shipment like that show up on the door step. And that's not even considering the effect what's inside those boxes is going to have on the performance of your rig. Really looking forward to the day I can place a proper GIK order like that, and oh shiz I want to hear my room after so damn bad!
> 
> Hell at this point I'm dying to hear how yours sounds once everything is deployed. I've always had a thing for your setup Shelby but you really have pushed it over the top this time.
> 
> Waiting..... not so patiently, for another update and some impressions. Lol and have fun with it, if nothing else!
> 
> Sent from my SM-J727T1 using Tapatalk


Thanks brother!!

Well it sounds like what treatments you’ve done to your room so far has made an insane difference, GIK or not. I doubt mine is going to be any better than yours, even with GIK.

Yeah, I plan to have fun a lot of fun with this, every step of the way past what its already been, and in the end hopefully I’m as pleased with mine as you are with yours. It’s been awesome going back and forth with you in texts and doing this whole room treatment thing together at about the same time. Your cool as hell my good friend, and I really appreciate all the help you’ve given me!!! Plus, just BSing with you has been a blast!!! I’m grateful as hell to be able to meet people like you and others (Nalleh, unretarded, subacabra, coolrda, ereed, 5mark, Hopinater, and others just to name a few) on here and be able to talk about all the stuff we love, share knowledge, etc. Truly grateful, man!!!


----------



## SBuger

So here is phase 1 of 2 treatment plan from GIK. Got it all unboxed and laid out in the living room so I can see what’s what before I take it all up into my room. Wow it looks like a lot, and this is only part of what GIK recommended for my room with the consultation. Makes sense though, I’ve got a very tough square room full of room modes and covered in room deadening black velvet. I could only afford to do part of it at first but thinking it should make quite a difference with all the bass traps for the corners, absorbers with scatter plates for the back wall, and Diffusion panels as well.

So this time around I’ll only be trapping the two back corners, floor to ceiling with the range limited tri corner bass traps (the range limiters makes them absorb lower while limiting top end absorption). They are the ones standing up in the photos. They will stack two per corner. I wanted the soffit bass traps, but too pricey for me ATM. For phase 2 I may move the corner traps that I’m going to use in the rears corners now, to the front corners and put the soffit traps that absorb a little lower in the back corners. I’m hoping the CT traps will be pretty good though.

Then the alpha 6a’s absorbers with scatter plates will go on the back wall. I wanted 2 more of these as well but will have to wait for phase 2. These things just look amazing to me and are quite the work of art. I tried to take some good photos of them in good light to show what they look like. I’ve got high hopes for these things. These just look so bad ass to me. Like @biga6761 was telling me in a text, these things really do look like a serious piece of acoustic gear. If they can make the sound even half as good as they look, I’ll be thrilled!!  I’m seriously impressed the with the quality of these things! They even smell good from the freshly cut wood lol. I think I’m probably going to want at least two more of these LOL

And then last but not least, diffusion panels which is what I really need I think and what stated this whole treatment process. I absolutely LOVE what all the black velvet does in my room for PQ and total immersion with no visual distractions but has deadened my room a little too much I think. I’m thinking these things are going to work wonders in my room (at least I hope so) and have very high hopes for them. @biga6761 just did his room that’s also covered in fabric with some diffusion panels and said it made a tremendous difference, which is wayyyyyyy cool!! Again, If I’m even half as happy as he is with his and what it did for his room, I’ll be one happy camper!!

I got what’s called the Gridfussers. They are 2’x2’ by 6” deep. They are stark white which is soooooooooo not going to work for me but can be painted black. Nothing is as dark and light absorbing as velvet, but hopefully won’t be too distracting. I may end up needing more of these in phase 2, but we’ll see.

I’m very anxious and excited to get all these treatments put up over the next week or so and see what they can do. I’ve got very high hopes for these GIK treatments, hopefully I’m not too disappointed. I’ll be shocked if I am, and pretty sure I’ll be impressed . We'll see, stay tuned  

Anyway, I took quite a few pics of all the treatments in the living room before I start moving them up to my room ...














































A close up of the Alpha 6a's with scatter plates that i was tying to describe earlier. Damn these things are awesome and beautiful LOL


----------



## subacabra

Nice dude! I'm looking into those gridfussers too. Where do you plan on mounting them?


----------



## Nalleh

Hmm, no pics are showing for me...


----------



## SBuger

subacabra said:


> Nice dude! I'm looking into those gridfussers too. Where do you plan on mounting them?


Thanks Justin! Ah cool on the Grids bro! 

Well, that’s a good question about where I’m going to mount them. The easy answer is where ever the 1rst reflection point is for each of my speakers. At least that is what GIK recommended for my room covered in velvet to help liven it up. Even the front speakers, which I just have 1” OC 703 absorption in the first reflection points on the side walls towards the front now. Don’t know if I’ll end up putting diffusers here or not for the front 3 speakers, as I only 8 Gridfussers at the moment. GIK actually recommended 22 Grids for my room , since I have 11 speakers. Meaning since I have 2 seats, one 2x2 Grid for each of the 11 speakers 1rst reflection point per seat x2 (for two seats). LOL, seems a bit extreme to me, but they are the experts I guess. Honestly, I think my room covered in room deadening velvet kind of threw them for a loop. I think that my room may have been the first time they have ever heard of or dealt with such a thing LOL. IDK, maybe it’s what I truly need in a room covered almost entirely in velvet (subs and speakers only thing not covered lol)

We’ll see what this first round with with the 6a’s and grids that I have available will do. I only have 8 at the moment, so I’ll have to pick and choose where I want to put them first. My Original plan and thinking was to have a dead front end and a lively mid way back and back end. I’ve seen where some folks have said they prefer a dedicated HT room like this. Dead front with lively back. Well I’ve got the front part covered no prob lol, with all my Roxul 80 2” on the front wall and the OC 703 for the front speakers first reflection points on the sides walls toward the front. 

Since I’m limited with “ONLY 8” Gridfussers right now and not 22 LOL, they recommended that I start with the front speakers and work my back. Two on each side up front on side walls, 2 up top and the remaining two for the side surrounds. 

I’m thinking I want to start at the back and ceiling and work my forward as I get more Grids, if I really do need more. IDK, I may try it both ways. I know one thing though, I’m kinda limited in space in this little room and have only so much room to put all this stuff. I still need to get my mirror out to even check where these first reflection points at are for all my speakers other than my front 3 are actually at LOL. 

Where I kind of want to put them and may try first is one to two Grids on the side walls towards the back in between the side surrounds and back wall, then put the remaining 4-6 up top. Then I’ll have the 6a’s with scatter plates on the back wall, which will disperse the sound like the Gridfussers, making it livelier, less localizable, more spacious an all that jazz (will actually probably even work better than the Grids for dispersing, while helping with my low-end room modes down under 75hz at the same time).

Hope all that made sense, probably not the easy answer you were expecting huh LOL


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Hmm, no pics are showing for me...


Darn, yeah that’s been happening a lot lately for all my images. I was hoping it was just on my end. Not sure what’s up with that. It seems to be real intermittent. They were all showing up fine last night, now this morning they are not showing. IDK, man! Weird, and its all of them, even the ones on my front page first post and all the way through the thread, as well as everywhere else in the forum where I’ve posted images. When it’s happening, it’ll show “image blocked” where the image is supposed to be when I’m on my iPhone. On my mac and PC, it’s just blank with no pic or message at all.

I just use my website to host the pics and link to them. Up until recently, its worked great. Hmm don’t know, the images on my site (I’ve got a pencil drawing site: www.shelbybrannin.com) seem to be working just fine, so it’s gotta be something to do with AVS forum – a setting wrong or something. That or maybe AVS doesn’t like me anymore lol

IDK man, just try checking back later and maybe they’ll be working again. Not really sure what to do about it at this point. Hopefully it doesn’t get worse and it’ll somehow line itself out haha 

I’ve seen where some folks have had hell with their pics showing up on the forums starting around a year or so ago. I’ve guess I’ve just been lucky with mine until now.


*EDIT: @Nalleh - Should be fixed now in the post down below*


----------



## SBuger

*OK will try to re-post my two latest updates from yesterday again with images working this time. Had to change servers so hopefully it'll work now. Hopefully got the first post in this thread working again too. Who knows how long its been all jacked up LOL Please let me know if photos in this post or the 1rst post in this thread aren't showing up, thanks!*

Latest update:

Oh dang ....I hate it when huge boxes filled with Home Theater goodies shows up on the front door step LOL   










And my daughters reaction when I told her to come check out what the FED EX dude left at our door step. Priceless!!  I think she loves getting packages as much as I do hahahaha. It's probably not healthy and is as addicting as Home Theater itself!  It's almost as good as Christmas, well maybe even better LOL 










So here is phase 1 of 2 treatment plan from GIK. Got it all unboxed and laid out in the living room so I can see what’s what before I take it all up into my room. Wow it looks like a lot, and this is only part of what GIK recommended for my room with the consultation. Makes sense though, I’ve got a very tough square room full of room modes and covered in room deadening black velvet. I could only afford to do part of it at first but thinking it should make quite a difference with all the bass traps for the corners, absorbers with scatter plates for the back wall, and Diffusion panels as well.

So this time around I’ll only be trapping the two back corners, floor to ceiling with the range limited tri corner bass traps (the range limiters makes them absorb lower while limiting top end absorption). They are the ones standing up in the photos. They will stack two per corner. I wanted the soffit bass traps, but too pricey for me ATM. For phase 2 I may move the corner traps that I’m going to use in the rears corners now, to the front corners and put the soffit traps that absorb a little lower in the back corners. I’m hoping the CT traps will be pretty good though.

Then the alpha 6a’s absorbers with scatter plates will go on the back wall. I wanted 2 more of these as well but will have to wait for phase 2. These things just look amazing to me and are quite the work of art. I tried to take some good photos of them in good light to show what they look like. I’ve got high hopes for these things. These just look so bad ass to me. Like @biga6761 was telling me in a text, these things really do look like a serious piece of acoustic gear. If they can make the sound even half as good as they look, I’ll be thrilled!!  I’m seriously impressed the with the quality of these things! They even smell good from the freshly cut wood lol. I think I’m probably going to want at least two more of these LOL

And then last but not least, diffusion panels which is what I really need I think and what stated this whole treatment process. I absolutely LOVE what all the black velvet does in my room for PQ and total immersion with no visual distractions but has deadened my room a little too much I think. I’m thinking these things are going to work wonders in my room (at least I hope so) and have very high hopes for them. @biga6761 just did his room that’s also covered in fabric with some diffusion panels and said it made a tremendous difference, which is wayyyyyyy cool!! Again, If I’m even half as happy as he is with his and what it did for his room, I’ll be one happy camper!!

I got what’s called the Gridfussers. They are 2’x2’ by 6” deep. They are stark white which is soooooooooo not going to work for me but can be painted black. Nothing is as dark and light absorbing as velvet, but hopefully won’t be too distracting. I may end up needing more of these in phase 2, but we’ll see.

I’m very anxious and excited to get all these treatments put up over the next week or so and see what they can do. I’ve got very high hopes for these GIK treatments, hopefully I’m not too disappointed. I’ll be shocked if I am, and pretty sure I’ll be impressed . We'll see, stay tuned  

Anyway, I took quite a few pics of all the treatments in the living room before I start moving them up to my room ...














































A close up of the Alpha 6a's with scatter plates that i was tying to describe earlier. Damn these things are awesome and beautiful LOL


----------



## ereed

Wow @SBuger those GIK panels look bad ass. As you already know I have 244s (full broadband) and Alpha 4A on the side wall and 244s (range limiter) on the rear wall. It makes a HUGE difference. My 4A absorber/diffuser are on first reflection points on side walls. 

You mentioned you have 4 tri traps. Instead of 2 on each rear corners. I suggest to put one per corner and then add 4 more all around when funds allow. Just 1 per corner makes a big diff and your bass decay will be much quicker and kick drum will feel much tighter. Here is a pic of mine and I love them...they don't even look like acoustic panels and my friends all think they are just art panels for decoration!

Its older pic since my setup is now 7.3 but the panels are the same.


----------



## ereed

SBuger said:


> I’m thinking I want to start at the back and ceiling and work my forward as I get more Grids, if I really do need more. IDK, I may try it both ways. I know one thing though, I’m kinda limited in space in this little room and have only so much room to put all this stuff. I still need to get my mirror out to even check where these first reflection points at are for all my speakers other than my front 3 are actually at LOL.


I just bought a floor mirror like you hang on back of your bedroom door for $10 at Walmart. I sit it upright up against the wall and then go sit at my MLP and once I see each speaker I marked it with post it note. I can take a pic showing it if needed later tonight to show what I'm talking about.


----------



## Nalleh

Pics are working now 

Wow, that was a lot of packages 

This should make a rather big improvement, me thinks 

Can’t wait to see and hear how this project proceeds.


----------



## Nalleh

Here is a nifty calculator for finding reflection points. All of them 

http://www.acoustic.ua/forms/calculator4.en.html


----------



## SBuger

ereed said:


> Wow @SBuger those GIK panels look bad ass. As you already know I have 244s (full broadband) and Alpha 4A on the side wall and 244s (range limiter) on the rear wall. It makes a HUGE difference. My 4A absorber/diffuser are on first reflection points on side walls.
> 
> You mentioned you have 4 tri traps. Instead of 2 on each rear corners. I suggest to put one per corner and then add 4 more all around when funds allow. Just 1 per corner makes a big diff and your bass decay will be much quicker and kick drum will feel much tighter. Here is a pic of mine and I love them...they don't even look like acoustic panels and my friends all think they are just art panels for decoration!
> 
> Its older pic since my setup is now 7.3 but the panels are the same.





ereed said:


> I just bought a floor mirror like you hang on back of your bedroom door for $10 at Walmart. I sit it upright up against the wall and then go sit at my MLP and once I see each speaker I marked it with post it note. I can take a pic showing it if needed later tonight to show what I'm talking about.


Hey thanks! Awesome man, yeah, I knew you had the GIKs but guess I didn’t realize you had that many. Yep, they look real nice, thanks for posting the pics and great to hear they make such a difference too! I took your suggestion from earlier (Biga’s as well) about contacting GIK, so thanks!

Yeah, I’m sure I’ll try the corner traps in all 4 corners as well as just the two corners stacked floor to ceiling. Will be interesting to see the difference they make in the diff locations. I’ll have to look back through my 'back and forth' notes with GIK as well to see what he said on these as well since I only have half the traps I need ATM. I was thinking he said all in the back for starters, buy hell, maybe not lol. One thing that kind of messes me up for trapping both front corners though is me having my entry/exit door up in the far left corner. I only ever open the door partly to get in and out and have my black shag rug cut and tucked under to stop the door part way. So I won’t be able to fit a trap in there like it needs to be, but could still position it in there as far as I could get it.

Fantastic idea with the floor mirror and will make it a lot easier to do by myself, at least for the side walls. Thanks for the suggestion! Yeah snap a pic if you want and have time, but sounds easy enough to do.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Pics are working now
> 
> Wow, that was a lot of packages
> 
> This should make a rather big improvement, me thinks
> 
> Can’t wait to see and hear how this project proceeds.





Nalleh said:


> Here is a nifty calculator for finding reflection points. All of them
> 
> http://www.acoustic.ua/forms/calculator4.en.html


Cool, thanks for letting me know about the pics!

LOL yeah a lot of packages huh. It should make a pretty good improvement I would think.

Thanks a lot for the calculator link, that could be awesome!!


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## ereed

SBuger said:


> Hey thanks! Awesome man, yeah, I knew you had the GIKs but guess I didn’t realize you had that many. Yep, they look real nice, thanks for posting the pics and great to hear they make such a difference too! I took your suggestion from earlier (Biga’s as well) about contacting GIK, so thanks!
> 
> Yeah, I’m sure I’ll try the corner traps in all 4 corners as well as just the two corners stacked floor to ceiling. Will be interesting to see the difference they make in the diff locations. I’ll have to look back through my 'back and forth' notes with GIK as well to see what he said on these as well since I only have half the traps I need ATM. I was thinking he said all in the back for starters, buy hell, maybe not lol. One thing that kind of messes me up for trapping both front corners though is me having my entry/exit door up in the far left corner. I only ever open the door partly to get in and out and have my black shag rug cut and tucked under to stop the door part way. So I won’t be able to fit a trap in there like it needs to be, but could still position it in there as far as I could get it.
> 
> Fantastic idea with the floor mirror and will make it a lot easier to do by myself, at least for the side walls. Thanks for the suggestion! Yeah snap a pic if you want and have time, but sounds easy enough to do.


If you have issues with corners with the door opening you can just get 2 monster traps with range limiter and put it on those corners. Not straddling corners like tri traps would but mount flat on side wall up against front wall. Will still absorb low freq and you can open the door like normal. The monster traps are 7 inches think I believe. 

I don't have corner traps and just the 244s on side walls and rear wall with range limiter really made a big difference. I started with 3 on rear wall, then added 4A on side wall, then added more 244s on side wall. I did it in baby steps. So with your additional corner traps, you would have much better bass control than I would. I know GIK has recommended more than you probably want to spend....just see what you currently have and see what difference it makes and you can decide how much more to add. Remember, you can easily overdamp the room as in overdamping the mids/highs....but its almost impossible to overdamp the very low freq so install as much low end bass traps you can. And once you get what you can do and look at REW waterfall/decays maybe tuned membrane traps as final step after broadband traps are installed but those are expensive. If you already think your room sounds good, its going to sound much better once you put those panels in place. The best way I can describe is that you got speaker upgrade and its more clear and tight sounding. Let us know what you think once its up. Or just put the corner traps and rear traps and just see what diff it makes before diffusers so you can get idea what each panel does to your room.


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## SBuger

ereed said:


> If you have issues with corners with the door opening you can just get 2 monster traps with range limiter and put it on those corners. Not straddling corners like tri traps would but mount flat on side wall up against front wall. Will still absorb low freq and you can open the door like normal. The monster traps are 7 inches think I believe.
> 
> I don't have corner traps and just the 244s on side walls and rear wall with range limiter really made a big difference. I started with 3 on rear wall, then added 4A on side wall, then added more 244s on side wall. I did it in baby steps. So with your additional corner traps, you would have much better bass control than I would. I know GIK has recommended more than you probably want to spend....just see what you currently have and see what difference it makes and you can decide how much more to add. Remember, you can easily overdamp the room as in overdamping the mids/highs....but its almost impossible to overdamp the very low freq so install as much low end bass traps you can. And once you get what you can do and look at REW waterfall/decays maybe tuned membrane traps as final step after broadband traps are installed but those are expensive. If you already think your room sounds good, its going to sound much better once you put those panels in place. The best way I can describe is that you got speaker upgrade and its more clear and tight sounding. Let us know what you think once its up. Or just put the corner traps and rear traps and just see what diff it makes before diffusers so you can get idea what each panel does to your room.


Great idea with the monster traps in the front left corner by the door!

Also great points and ideas with everything else! Thanks bro!!

Yeah, I’m curious to what each are going to do, so that was kinda my plan to try the bass traps and 6a’s first, or maybe even the corner traps only first, and see what kind of a diff they make. I’ve got very high hopes for the bass trapping and I’m sure I’ll need a lot more to be optimal. Not just for my decay times, but for pre-PEQ frequency response. I’ve got some nasty modes that must be addressed to get a decent looking response, would be nice to have a better starting response. But that being said, subjectively the bass once PEQ’d and dialed in pretty good, seems pretty quick and tight (mainly from the VNFs right behind me), with not much hang time and slow bloat, but I know could always be better. I know the FR on each location sure could, at least with less PEQ to get it there.

Yeah we’ll see how this first round of treatments goes, then go from there for what should be next


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## ereed

Any updates on room treatments?


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## SBuger

ereed said:


> Any updates on room treatments?


Yo ereed, how's it going man? You still enjoying the heck out of all 3 of your subs being dialed in? 

Well not a lot to update yet unfortunately, but can fill you in a little bit. I had a major setback with my Home Theater room there for a while and am just now getting to the treatments. And man, am I beyond ready! LOL 

I messed up bad and have been having some crazy window problems because of it. Since this is a bedroom upstairs, it has 2 windows, well 3 actually (one on the south side and one on the west side that is made up of two), I had to black them out as well so no light gets though. Well in doing so, I have to admit to my dumb ass stuffing them and not thinking through about what the summer sun might do. Well all was fine in the winter and spring, but when summer rolled around, the summer afternoon sun just wrecked havoc on my West side windows in a hurry! Not enough ventilation obviously for the HEAT to escape, and boy did it ever work them over (mainly the west side).  The South side window, not too bad but still did some damage. 

At first I thought it was my bass, but again my ignorance on the matter shined through so to speak LOL. It would take a hell of a lot more bass than I have to wreck this kind of havoc alone without the sun on my windows I think. The bass could have been part of the wreckage as the sun just had everything loosed up basically melting it, combined with the bass possibly flexing the windows and popping them loose, IDK. Anyway, the sun just melted and burned the crap out of the seals and even warped some of the wood on the top of the window frames. Just insane what the summer time hot sun did to my windows in a hurry. I think I got real lucky that it didn't do way more damage than it did, and even worse, catch fire ...phew!!! 

Here's a pic of part of one of my windows when I first discovered it ....YIKES!!!!









So, I replaced all the seals, got the top part of the window put back in place and re-caulked up top where the wood was starting to bow and separating from the wall a little bit. When we sell in probably 5-10 years we may have to replace the windows, we'll see. But for now, they seem fine after fixing them back up.

So to battle the crazy sun here in New Mexico on my west side windows, and the one on the south side window as well, I installed solar screens on the outsides of the windows that are supposed to cut the suns heat and UV by a whopping 90%. We've always kind of had problems with out two West side bedrooms heating up from the late afternoon sun starting about 3:00 when the sun hits them, so I just went ahead and put them on the other bedroom too. I think they look pretty nice and have helped DRASTICALLY already in the two days that I've had them up. WAY FREAKING COOLER!!!!!!    I think this is going to totally solve my problem even with my window blackouts that need to be done. But this time I left just a little gap at the top so what heat does build up in there can escape, which is what I should have done the first time around if I had been thinking. I should have known since those two room get hot so easy in the afternoon. Oh well, live and learn I guess, at least I didn't burn the house down hehehe 

Here's a couple pics of the solar screens. So far I'm VERY impressed with them. Not just to help to keep from cooking/melting my windows to death and starting the house on fire in my blacked out theater room, but also it really cut the heat buildup in the both rooms tremendously, which is just sooooooo awesome! 

The West side windows of the HT room above the gargage ...









And then the West side windows on one of the other bedroom upstairs ...









So, on to the updates. Not much yet at all, just getting started basically, but can update you on what little bit has been done. 

First, I finally got all the Gridfusers painted black. Geez, took me a long time since I did it with a paint brush and gallon of paint, but they turned out real nice I think and covered nice and even with a flat black water based paint. I just finished the last one a couple days ago, but haven't hung any of them up yet. Here's a couple pics of one in the painting process. Each one took me damn near 2 hours to paint in all the little gapes, crevices, etc. Glad that's done ...phew!! Was fun at first but started getting old towards the last ones LOL


















BUT, I did get the Tri-corner traps put in the back of the room stacked floor to ceiling to begin with and also got the Alpha 6A's with the scatter plates hung up on the back walls of the room. I haven't listened with the 6A's yet, but damn I really love the look of these things! Just with the corner traps in place and the 6As in the back of the room, it almost kind of looks like and reminds me of a mini recording/mixing room, a dark one at least LOL! The pics don't really do'm justice at all, but will give you an idea. Man, I just love the look and feel that these 6A's create when I walk into the room. Even my wife noticed right away and thought they looked fantastic, which is way cool because when she does notice stuff having to do with my home theater room, she could usually care less and sometimes even rolls her eyes ... with all the velvet she says it's like being inside a giant jewelry box. LMAO cause she's kinda right. But now, its starting to seem more and more like a serious AV room  She actually does really like the room though because I hear her telling her friends sometimes how cool and crazy it is hahahahaha ...caught her!!!!  Plus a couple weeks ago she enjoyed the crap out of "The Greatest Showman", we both did  We watched without the BK's and MA's because she doesn't love the extreme TR that I do, but damn, I just couldn't get over how much shake the floor and seats were getting in this movie without them, especially the bleacher stomps in the main menu and then in the same song when the movie starts out  Was soooo cool and the TR felt awesome and very realistic! Although I do have a couple of the 18's parked right behind my chairs for slam and TR, I do think I underestimated a little bit of just what a suspended floor is capable of!! I can now truly understand now why most folks say they really miss the TR they get from a suspended floor when they are forced to move to a concrete floor and don't use and Transducers or Crowsons MA's. Suspended floors are pretty crazy what they can do. BKs and MAs can still be more powerful depending on how you run them and have them set up, but damn, suspended floors are no joke and are fun as hell!! 

Here's a couple pics of the back part of the room with the Corner Traps and 6A's...

You can see a little bit of light leaking in at the top of the wall where it meets the ceiling since I don't have that stapled up yet ..wanted to keep an eye on my windows for a bit first and leave a heat escape opening. All seems good so far and will close it up soon and check how that does. 



























So I did check out the traps a little bit with some demo material and REW. They straightened my peaks and valleys a little bit above 30hz so I didn't have to cut as much with pre-Audy PEQ and I think tightened up my bass a bit as well. I thought it sounded and felt real nice, although I was pretty happy with it before as well with the VNFs in the mix. I need more traps for the front I think in the future. 

I just ran the subs only on a handful of my favorite demo as well as the new Tomb Raider and was quite impressed. Then made a few much needed tweaks on my BKs and MA's that I've been needing to do for a while now, and added them to the mix. I've been running without BKs and MAs for a while now because the suspended floor does a pretty damn good job on its own with TR, especially above 30hz and at 10 - 13hz. But Jeez, I had forgotten just how much fun, powerful and capable the combo of VNFs + BK's + MA's can be!! I had a pretty good sized grin on my face LOL  The MAs/BK combo still needs tuned a little more, but was very, very good I thought. 

Can't wait to get the all the Gridfusers up and check it out as a whole. Will try to report back in the not to distant future, now that all my window problems are hopefully over


----------



## subacabra

Dude those diffusors look awesome! They remind me of some hieroglyphic looking creations. Super sweet, hopefully one day I can achieve your level of awesomeness lol


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## SBuger

subacabra said:


> Dude those diffusors look awesome! They remind me of some hieroglyphic looking creations. Super sweet, hopefully one day I can achieve your level of awesomeness lol


Thanks bro!! Yeah the Alpha 6A's with the scatter plates really are like a work of art or something. Crazy that they can cut that wood like that in the special sound scattering mathematical sequence they use!! I wouldn't mind having two more to go in between the side surrounds and back wall corner traps, which is where two of the Gridfusers will go for now. Maybe next round, we'll see. Def have to save for a while first though! 

Hey man, your room and setup is pretty damn awesome, and getting better all the time!!


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## ereed

Nice looking alpha panels. I understand how cool they look cause I have alpha 4A myself but with different dimension scatter option. Looks really cool!

You will get even more improvement when you add more bass traps in front corners as well as absorption/diffusion in first reflection points. Can't wait to see it all put together. 

Sucks to hear about your windows. For some reason I thought you didn't have windows or you put a plywood over the opening at least.....or so I thought cause you have really dark room!

Its coming along nicely.....and I will tell you the Greatest Showman movie is one of my favorite movies....sounds like true broadway playing in front of you! My wife and I enjoyed that movie very much.


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## SBuger

ereed said:


> Nice looking alpha panels. I understand how cool they look cause I have alpha 4A myself but with different dimension scatter option. Looks really cool!
> 
> You will get even more improvement when you add more bass traps in front corners as well as absorption/diffusion in first reflection points. Can't wait to see it all put together.
> 
> Sucks to hear about your windows. For some reason I thought you didn't have windows or you put a plywood over the opening at least.....or so I thought cause you have really dark room!
> 
> Its coming along nicely.....and I will tell you the Greatest Showman movie is one of my favorite movies....sounds like true broadway playing in front of you! My wife and I enjoyed that movie very much.


Thanks! Yeah, your 4A’s with scatter look really cool as well!

Yeah my windows have been a royal pain in the arse from the get go. That one on the west side seems to take up about half of the side wall which is aggravating but is what it is I guess since this is a bedroom converted to HT. Luckily, I’ve been able to stop all light leakage without too much problem though. About the plywood, I still may do that (since the heat problem now seems to be solved with the solar screens) if these Gridfusors don’t liven it up enough. If this is the case, I think I’ll take all velvet off the back half of the room on walls and ceiling and then just paint with flat black, including the plywood. Then use the Gridfusors for first reflection points on front side walls and ceiling for L, C, and R front speakers to help liven more. So, if current plan isn’t quite good enough, I think that should do the trick while still being pretty dark. Not as dark for sure compared to the velvet on the back half of room but should still be pretty good and sound way livelier in the back half of the room with some reflectivity. I’d gladly welcome some of that right now. It turns out that my room is actually quite dead from all the velvet, even more so than I suspected actually. I did a reverberation test on it just recently with REW and it showed it to be pretty darn dead at about 100ms from 150hz and up . No wonder I thought my room may be a bit dead LOL! For HT, looks like 300-500ms in this area is usually recommended. We’ll see, IDK. Even if the Grids and 6a’s don’t bring this up much in the REW test and only subjectively help with a lively and spaciousness sound, I’ll be cool with that too.

It may require a lot more than 8 Grids to liven it up though, and don’t know that I want to paint and hang 22 of them like GIK recommended  LOL. I had the wife help me with finding all the first reflection points on the ceiling for all the speakers, then I did the ones on the side walls with the floor mirror like you were telling me about (worked great BTW, so thanks for the idea!). Damn, lots of 1rst reflection points all over the place for as many speakers as I have . Paint on the back half may be just as good with way fewer than 22 Gridfusors that GIK recommended with all my velvet, plus way cheaper and faster. IDK, just thinking out loud here, I could be getting a little ahead of myself and need to try the 8 that I have so far, I just need to pick and choose where I want them. I tried sticking a couple to the actual wall (not the to the velvet) last night with heavy duty Velcro. The sticky stuck to the bare wall great, but not so well to the Gridfusors and fell off in not much time at all. Think I’m gonna try black drywall screws next since that was a flop lol A little more patience I keep telling myself hahahaha 

Totally agree on The Greatest Showman, wow what a soundtrack and you summed it up nicely!


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## ereed

You may want to use something like Alpha 4A or 6A (for more bass absorption) over the gridfusers for side wall first reflection points. The main reason is not only both products diffuse sounds, the alpha will also absorb more low bass to brighten up the room a bit. Remember if you absorb more bass (which is preferred) you will also make the room sound/feel more lively. This is just me personally...if this was my room, I'd keep what you have and add more tri traps in front corners or monster at the door corners and get absorption/diffusion at first reflection points of the main speakers (2 per side wall). That alone should make a bigger difference.

Glad to see you got your windows under control. 

Also I find it hard that velvet actually absorbs that much highs....couldn't even imagine that but I don't have small room to know....instead of taking the velvet down and paint the rear wall you can just get more diffusion panels and hang over the velvet. This alone is less time consuming than painting and not only while you have more diffused sound from the panels you also prevent light hitting back at screen for even better picture than paint (although while dark is still light reflective) compared to velvet.


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## SBuger

ereed said:


> You may want to use something like Alpha 4A or 6A (for more bass absorption) over the gridfusers for side wall first reflection points. The main reason is not only both products diffuse sounds, the alpha will also absorb more low bass to brighten up the room a bit. Remember if you absorb more bass (which is preferred) you will also make the room sound/feel more lively. This is just me personally...if this was my room, I'd keep what you have and add more tri traps in front corners or monster at the door corners and get absorption/diffusion at first reflection points of the main speakers (2 per side wall). That alone should make a bigger difference.
> 
> Glad to see you got your windows under control.
> 
> Also I find it hard that velvet actually absorbs that much highs....couldn't even imagine that but I don't have small room to know....instead of taking the velvet down and paint the rear wall you can just get more diffusion panels and hang over the velvet. This alone is less time consuming than painting and not only while you have more diffused sound from the panels you also prevent light hitting back at screen for even better picture than paint (although while dark is still light reflective) compared to velvet.


Yeah side wall first reflection points for L,C, R with the 6a's would probably be best in my room since I’m needing more lively while still absorbing. On my budget GIK just recommended the Grids there but then said just leave my OC 703 absorption panels that I have in place there right now covered in velvet. Which just dawned on me, whatever else I put there if I decide too ,whether it be more 6a’s with absorption/diffusion or the Grids without absorption, I’ll get visual glare being painted flat black up font in that area. Me being in a small room could be pretty distracting, but not a problem where I have them all now on ceiling, rear side wall and back wall since I won’t really ever see them. We’ll see in the future if I think I need them after this round of treatments. May be worth the visual glare of the 6a’s or grids though, IDK. There is no glare there now whatsoever and sure is nice!

Yep dude, velvet absorbs mids and highs like crazy and can suck the liveliness right out of your sound if you get too much of it, I’m sure being even more amplified in a small, which is my case now. Sure is wicked good for the video though LOL. 

So, couple stories about velvet absorbing highs that were sure easy to tell. I used to have velvet curtains that I had to use in my living room setup if I wanted to watch the projector during the day. When I would pull all three walls (just 3 compared to what I have now), I could hear a big diff in reduction of liveness. Not detail or really even a ton of high frequency attenuation, but loss of spaciousness and liveliness. 

Now when I was working on getting this new room ready I knew this and could hear the room getting more and more dead with each big piece of velvet I hung up just by talking and making noise in the room, but thought/hoped that I could get away it and the tradeoff of an awesome video presentation would make up for it. I was so excited about the new dedicated room that I’ve always wanted, that I think I just kind of got used to it and still thought it sounded really good with fantastic detail and imaging setting right in the sweet spot, especially up front since I’d never before experienced abortion on first reflection points for L, C, and R front speakers as well as front wall deadened like coolrda suggest I do. So I was just in awe for that part of the sound and all was pretty good until I watched a movie in the living room in 5.1 with my Onkyo (Denon Atmos receiver replaced the Onkyo in my room so I moved it down to the living room setup). In the living room, the detail wasn’t nearly as good as I’m used to in my room, especially in the front for vocal clarity etc. But the liveliness and spaciousness was undeniable and was quite refreshing. That’s what started this whole diffusion treatment quest and just decided to try to add some bass trapping and back wall absorption to go along with it. 

So anyways, I got all the Gridfussors put up with drywall screws and worked great, except for the one that needs to go where my window is. Still haven’t got it put up yet and tore part of it up trying to get it done …grrrrrrr! Will hopefully get it tonight. We’ll see how it all sounds, I’ve got high expectations and hopefully am not let down, cause yeah I don’t really want to pull down the back half of my velvet and use flat black paint, but will if I have too. Yeah like you say and what GIK recommended, just get more Gridfusors. But they are expensive when you need as many as may be need, and hell by then, I’ll have most of my back half of the room covered by diffusion panels anyway at that point LOL + have a bunch of money wrapped up in it. IDK, we’ll see what these 8 Gridfusors + the 6A’s with scatter plates on the back wall will do. I don’t mind adding a few more Gridfussors and maybe another round of 6a’s if I have too though, but probably not as many as they recommended. Anyway, should be good though, it worked wonders for Biga’s room, so I’m hopeful. I just have a tendency to get a little ahead of myself and over think before I actually try something lol. I think this project has been on delay too long since ive had to spend way too much time dealing with my window problem. It’s on now though!!! LOL 

I haven’t responded to your pm yet, but will, I got side tracked typing this up. Dude I’d go with Crowson MA’s for sure, no question! Once you get multiple subs, a good FR and enough SPL to satisfy your needs which you seem to have now, Crowsons will make a way bigger difference than adding more subs IMO. Unless your wife wants a VNF sub directly behind her as well. So I’m mainly talking about you here, but she’ll probably notice a drastic difference as well with the MA’s. They are freaking good man, and really do add like a 4th dimension to the experience and will make you feel like you must have added a bunch more subs, not just one more. They are that good once you get them set up and integrated. HIGHLY recommended!


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## SBuger

So anyway, the verdict is in. Real nice improvement with the treatments. I think the Traps helped tighten the bass up a little bit as well as help straighten FR out a little as well before Audy. The Alpha 6A's and Gridfusors helped reduce localization as well as helped with a more spacious lively sound, which is what I was after. My room was pretty dead with all the velvet and I definitely think this was a nice first step in getting it sounding like I want. I'm thinking maybe another round of 6A's and a few more Gridfusors, plus more trapping in the front ought to get me there  I've got a little bit of tweaking to do, but then I'm on to enjoying some content for a while!! I've got some great movies just waiting for me to catch up on. I demoed Tomb Raider and a few others that I'm really fond of and was very pleased! So first round was a success I think 

I really like how the treatments look in the room as well, and definitely starting to look more like a serious HT room I think, especially from what was previously just a plain ole 13x13 bedroom. I think this little room will serve me well until we eventually build maybe in the next 5-10 years. 

I tried to take some decent pics, although its a pretty dark room but should give a good idea. Bass Traps in the rear back corners, Alpha 6A's on the back wall, and 8 Gridfusors (2 on the rear side walls and the remaining 6 up top covering most of the surround and height speakers first reflection points). 
@biga6761 thank you for all your help along the way my good friend, much appreciated brother!! Way fun with our many exchanges too!! @ereed , thank you too for originally suggesting GIK to me and discussion along the way, thanks man!! @coolrda - Also, thank you as well for suggesting diffusion! Pretty cool what it can do, it can definitely make a room sound bigger, livelier, and less localized.

A few pics ...



























I wanted to try to get a pano but just way too dark for the iphone to pic it up, so I just too the 3 shots and stuck them together, worked ok I guess and give another perspective ...


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## ereed

Its looking real good! I like it!


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## SBuger

^^^ Thanks dude!!


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## unretarded

Outstanding !


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## Nalleh

Awesome progress man


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## SBuger

@Nalleh – Hey thanks my HT broskie!! 
@unretarded – Thank you as well!! Hey, are you still enjoying your HT a lot with your matching fronts as well as new top channels? Also, I haven’t seen you around the forums as much lately and haven’t heard any talk of the new room you were working on or fixing to start on (I may have missed it somewhere though). You still have plans for that or getting close?

Anyway, good to hear from you and hope all is well my HT and VNF sub homie!!  I just took a quick look through your sub build thread to see if there were any kind of updates and saw those 18’s right behind each of you seats. I knew you had them and heard you talk about them a lot, but cool to see them. Did you see Nalleh’s VNF subs he built for behind his two seats? They are pretty wicked looking and sounds like they really bring the goods as well!

I still need to check out that cave movie. I bet it upmixes really well with all those cave sounds. I find 5.1 upmixes great, especially with Neural. I really like DSU but for some reason on the AVR I have at least, Neural usually wins on the 5.1. I really need to try it on “The Cave”.


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## unretarded

Nice !


Plans have changed a little, still enjoying this room, I have about 7500 hours in 18 months on the PJ......

Super happy with the 3 matched towers up front...….just seems right for the sound to be there/behind the screen....I know its not a very technical description...lol



Been fixing up the house to sell, ….plans are now for a HT house ….



The entire house will be theater orientated/centered around the theater.....


It will be one huge theater inside the house shell, with a bedroom and bathroom being the only 2 other rooms sectioned off. I use the PJ/ theater for every thing......on it now typing this, it is used for music, when cleaning...working outside,cooking etc, it is used for everything and with the fancy built in TV trays, even for eating.


So the new house will be open inside, with the kitchen even being in the theater....or open to the theater with no wall, so it can be viewed from all locations. The only downside, which I hope to mitigate as much as possible is it will be harder to get the sound just perfect, but I am guessing I can get it very good and I am willing to sacrifice a little in the sound to open it up to be way more usable.


I get to unleash the fury on this one as the closest house is 3 miles away and there are virtually no building codes......so everything will be centered geared towards the theater.



I have a approx. 32x32 open vaulted shell to work with, so the sky`s the limit on this one design wise.....


I guess my thread will be, how to integrate a bedroom /bathroom and kitchen into a theater....


----------



## SBuger

unretarded said:


> Nice !
> 
> 
> Plans have changed a little, still enjoying this room, I have about 7500 hours in 18 months on the PJ......
> 
> Super happy with the 3 matched towers up front...….just seems right for the sound to be there/behind the screen....I know its not a very technical description...lol
> 
> 
> 
> Been fixing up the house to sell, ….plans are now for a HT house ….
> 
> 
> 
> The entire house will be theater orientated/centered around the theater.....
> 
> 
> It will be one huge theater inside the house shell, with a bedroom and bathroom being the only 2 other rooms sectioned off. I use the PJ/ theater for every thing......on it now typing this, it is used for music, when cleaning...working outside,cooking etc, it is used for everything and with the fancy built in TV trays, even for eating.
> 
> 
> So the new house will be open inside, with the kitchen even being in the theater....or open to the theater with no wall, so it can be viewed from all locations. The only downside, which I hope to mitigate as much as possible is it will be harder to get the sound just perfect, but I am guessing I can get it very good and I am willing to sacrifice a little in the sound to open it up to be way more usable.
> 
> 
> I get to unleash the fury on this one as the closest house is 3 miles away and there are virtually no building codes......so everything will be centered geared towards the theater.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a approx. 32x32 open vaulted shell to work with, so the sky`s the limit on this one design wise.....
> 
> 
> I guess my thread will be, how to integrate a bedroom /bathroom and kitchen into a theater....


That’s a lot of PJ time! 

Glad to hear your still enjoying the matching towers as well. 

Wow, sounds awesome about your new HT house!!! How cool and what a great idea since you spend so much time with it and use it for everything. Makes a lot of sense and I’m sure you’ll love it!! 

This reminds me of an artist I know that did something similar, but art studio based instead of HT based. He had a double wide custom built, basically having them strip out all walls and rooms except for a bathroom. The rest was totally open and used as his art studio, with a little bed in the corner. All he cares about is producing art and lives it. Worked out wonderfully and he's pleased as pie!! 

Yep like you say, the sky’s the limit with this one and you can do whatever you want with it  How exciting, Congrats man! It’s so fun to have a vision and then have it come together! I can’t wait to hear about it once you get going on it and/or have it finished!

Thanks for the update, and an exciting one at that!!! 

Cheers mate!


----------



## trhought

SBuger.......very nice.....glad I found your thread as our tastes in immersive screen and tactile feel are similar. Our next HT upgrade will likely be a slightly larger screen and the addition of Crowson's to get the tactile feel at moderate volume levels when the family is home....maybe even a near field woofer or 2 strategically placed in one of the money seats.

I'm currently maxed out on the screen size and some modifications will be necessary to our room to go bigger. As a quick hitter, we will likely go with a black ceiling towards the front of the room as a simple upgrade to help with the "you are there" feeling.

Congrats on maximizing screen and tactile effect in a moderately sized space....I bet it's very easy to be transported into the movie with your setup.....that's my end goal in our next theater upgrade....

Oh, and I appreciate how good your photos are for the darkness of your theater....I recently tried to photograph our theater (in my sig below) with less success and it's not as dark as yours. I ended up turning every light on as bright as they would go to get the photos to show some of the detail and even then, the photos aren't nearly as good as yours!


----------



## trhought

> And my daughters reaction when I told her to come check out what the FED EX dude left at our door step. Priceless!!


Truly Priceless....enjoy this age....my children are older (2 girls and a boy) and photos like these bring back good memories of when they were younger. Anything I did to the theater was always met with much anticipation and glowing eyes after watching a movie. Now, if I'm lucky, the most I get is "what did you do to the theater now Dad". After a few words of explanation, at most I get a "Oh, that's nice". My daughters are much more into the theater than my son....he's too much into Xbox these days


----------



## SBuger

trhought said:


> SBuger.......very nice.....glad I found your thread as our tastes in immersive screen and tactile feel are similar. Our next HT upgrade will likely be a slightly larger screen and the addition of Crowson's to get the tactile feel at moderate volume levels when the family is home....maybe even a near field woofer or 2 strategically placed in one of the money seats.
> 
> I'm currently maxed out on the screen size and some modifications will be necessary to our room to go bigger. As a quick hitter, we will likely go with a black ceiling towards the front of the room as a simple upgrade to help with the "you are there" feeling.
> 
> Congrats on maximizing screen and tactile effect in a moderately sized space....I bet it's very easy to be transported into the movie with your setup.....that's my end goal in our next theater upgrade....
> 
> Oh, and I appreciate how good your photos are for the darkness of your theater....I recently tried to photograph our theater (in my sig below) with less success and it's not as dark as yours. I ended up turning every light on as bright as they would go to get the photos to show some of the detail and even then, the photos aren't nearly as good as yours!





trhought said:


> Truly Priceless....enjoy this age....my children are older (2 girls and a boy) and photos like these bring back good memories of when they were younger. Anything I did to the theater was always met with much anticipation and glowing eyes after watching a movie. Now, if I'm lucky, the most I get is "what did you do to the theater now Dad". After a few words of explanation, at most I get a "Oh, that's nice". My daughters are much more into the theater than my son....he's too much into Xbox these days


Thanks for stopping by and for the kind words, Tim!! Yes, it does really transport me into the movie and was my end goal as well. It’s quite immersive, which I do love, with the image being big and so close, sound wrapped all around me (the Atmos helped) and the bass and tactile feel combine to make me feel like I’m right there experiencing it for real. It’s been a long-time dream of mine to get it this way and think I’ve about arrived where I wanted it to be. 

I checked out your thread and WOW! Super nice theater and pool. Jeez, that pool …Not to take anything away from that theater which is awesome too, but that pool is absolutely AMAZING!!! And tucked away in the woods like that …just wow!!! Congratulations on both!!

Since you like tactile feel and immersion as well, I think you’ll definably enjoy an even bigger screen as well as what Crowsons and some nearfield woofage will do. 

Thanks for the compliment on the photos! Yes, a dark room can be very tough, but surprisingly my iphone 7 did a way better job than my DSLR camera did, so I used the iphone for all shots except the one full white screen head-on behind the seats shot. The Nikon did a little better on that one. The one area the DSLR does a little better on though is usually less noise, but not really a problem since these images are pretty small anyway for internet viewing. The wider angle on the phone is nice and it seems to pretty much the nail exposer and no need for a tripod which is nice. A lot faster and easier for me. 

I thought your photos turned out really nice and captures your theater and pool very nicely! So try not to beat yourself up too much over the photos, but I can relate lol. I’m a perfectionist even when it comes to the photos in my room and have to admit, I struggled a bit on getting some of them to look decent. A dark room can be very tough, especially when there is some backlighting going on in some of the shots. I took quite a lot actually and just tried to keep the ones that turned out the best. Trust me, there were some real bad ones LOL.

Nice on the kids as well. Yeah, they can make it real fun and the memories created really is priceless! It goes so fast though, mine is 7 and fixing to start 2nd grade. Seems like we just brought her home as a newborn the other day. I’m trying to soak up all the little stages and enjoy her as much as I can along the way, as she’ll be a teenager before I know it (yikes  lol). She’s at a real fun age but still small enough to snuggle her up really good, and still thinks her parents are cool! ...(another thing that might change when she’s a teenager lol)

Thanks again for stopping by ...I really enjoyed reading your post as well as checking out your thread!


----------



## trhought

SBuger....Thanks for the kind words about our theater and our pool.

I guess it's time for an iphone upgrade.....or just use one of my kids' new iphones next time  Good to hear a DSLR camera isn't needed and about the benefits of using an iphone...wider angle and no tripod. Regarding, the throw-away pictures, yes, I had some real duds and what you see in our theater thread was the result of combing through many photos of the theater I took last week....the pool picture was from over 10 years ago with a Sony digital camera but with full sun, those pics are super easy!

Regarding the theater upgrades in the future, my ultimate goal would be to have a 16:9 screen for the entire front wall...surprisingly the front wall dimensions work out pretty close 16.5' wide by 9' tall (220" diagonal vs. 183" today) but I would need to move the projector closer to the middle of the room to get the angles correct. That will be a definite possibility when I install sound clouds for 3D sound that will provide a good location for the projector also.

The new bar addition will provide ample space underneath the bar for the second row near field woofers...I just need to figure out how to get near field woofers in the front row. Crowson's would be icing on the cake.

Enjoy your theater and Thanks for the ideas and inspiration!


----------



## Kain

@SBuger

Quick question for you. Sorry if you've already answered this.

You sit roughly 7 ft from your 120" (diagonal) 16:9 screen. You stated in your first post in this thread that it doesn't feel overwhelming and just about right for most content (i.e. really immersive). However, do you have to move your head around during movies to see everything on the screen? Or do you just have to move your eyes around? Does it ever get tiring?


----------



## SBuger

Kain said:


> @SBuger
> 
> Quick question for you. Sorry if you've already answered this.
> 
> You sit roughly 7 ft from your 120" (diagonal) 16:9 screen. You stated in your first post in this thread that it doesn't feel overwhelming and just about right for most content (i.e. really immersive). However, do you have to move your head around during movies to see everything on the screen? Or do you just have to move your eyes around? Does it ever get tiring?


Hello Kain

Good question. Nope, don’t have to move my head. Only my eyes, but actually doesn’t even seem like I have to move my eyes much to see everything most of the time. I mean, yes to look towards either side of the screen or toward the top or bottom (especially for 16:9 aspect movies), I definitely have to move my eyes. I know that sounds contradictory and it is, BUT it just seems like don’t have to move my eyes (or much anyway) to see everything in general when watching. I asked my wife about this too to get her opinion on it as well since she doesn’t watch near as much as me, nor care about near as much as me either to get an opinion of a ‘non HT enthusiast’ like we are (at least compared to most of us on here). She thought the same thing as me. 

That said though, she gets motion sickness pretty easy and on some films it’s a little much for her. The last handful of films we’ve watched though, she was totally fine with it. 

So back to the having to move my eyes thing - Most of the time during normal movie watching, it feels like my eyes just take everything in, or what I need to see anyway, and without having to really move my eyes much (with the rest being slightly peripheral maybe) and feels normal and real. Now on some scenes especially in 16:9 format like Avatar for example, where there are TONS of visuals to take in and all the details, like say in the forest, these are the times I notice more eye movement, trying to take it all in and see every cool detail in the entire scene. It is a big screen for sure sitting 7’ from the 120” and covers a lot of territory in your field of vision. 

To give a little perspective though, it’s not at all like sitting in the first 20 rows or so at a commercial theater. I can’t handle that and don’t know how anybody does comfortably (the few that actually sit that close). There is most definitely head movement there and WAY too overpowering IMO. I’d say mine feels more like somewhere between this and half way back (about half way back is where we normally sit when we occasionally go out to see a movie). So, mine feels about a third of the way back maybe? IDK for sure, but on most material, it feels just about perfect for me and somehow feels more in touch/intimate compared to the distance I described at the commercial theater. Not quite overpowering, still comfortable, yet super immersive making me feel like I’m right there in the movie for real. Especially on the 3D stuff, its nuts. Hard to describe, but super cool. In fact the 2D stuff feels 3Dish a lot of times, which is pretty cool too.

So, all that said though, there are a few movies that are just too much at this distance. Some movies are just filmed more ‘in your face’ style and add shaky cam to the mix, and yeah ….it’s too overpowering and overwhelming. 

One that is on the edge of being almost too much for me at this distance is Saving Private Ryan. Awesome, but is 16:9 and a lot of scenes are filmed ‘close ‘ and a bit of shaky cam and can get tiring. Another that is right on the edge, but way easier to handle and is very cool is Transformers: The Last Knight. That one is a pretty awesome image experience and is just about perfect but is pushing it sometimes. Much more and I couldn’t handle the whole movie. Again, its 16:9 (or close sometimes in the variable aspect) and has a few in your face scenes, but way cool!

For the most part though on the majority of films (like probably 95% or more), I feel like it’s just about perfect for my tastes. But I love immersion and wanted that BIG SCREEN feel. One that I’ve watched recently (several times actually) and use for movie demo quite often is Ready Player One. Chapter 2, the race scene feels spot on size wise and seems just about perfect. Looks and feels like I’m right there in the race. It’s the perfect blend of ‘In your face’ and ‘intense’, putting you right there in the middle of the action, but not quite too overwhelming and I can still take it all in, if that makes sense. 

Being in this small room, I’m kind of forced to sit pretty close to my 120” 16;9 screen since the screen has to be out away from the wall to allow space for my speakers and subs to go behind it as well as subs to go behind my seats (which I love and could never do without) before running into the back wall, plus a little space left for the rear surrounds. All this in a small room makes me sit pretty close whether I like it or not. Luckily, I really enjoy being this close surprisingly. I could scoot my seats back from where it is now almost a foot or so and probably be able to get away with it with available room space, but actually preferred it closer. I just kept moving my seat forward a little at a time until I arrived where it felt best for the majority of movies. Either way though, any distance between the two is closer than the recommended viewing distance and is most definitely breaking the ‘rules’. It may be a little much for some, but luckily, I seem to love it  ....and never really gets tiring (besides those select few from the way they are filmed).

That’s the best way I know how to describe it all. Sorry if that was kind of a long answer.


----------



## Kain

Thanks for the detailed response!


----------



## SBuger

Got a new MiniDSP 10x10HD in the other day and set up with the Wi-fi gadget (WI-DG). I was using multiple 2x4's for all my crap but now got it all on one unit  

So anyway, BEQing is a breeze with the 10x10 hooked up to wifi on the macbook and not have to be tied down to a USB cable. So fast and cool.

So got it all setup and running and been enjoying the heck out of some movies BEQ'ed. 

The unit is nice sturdy piece of equipment and seems to work great so far. Very excited about it!! 

A few pics ...

Sits and fits perfectly on top of my Oppo 203 with the external HD on top of it for all my lossless MKV movies:









And the nifty little Wi-Fi gadget (WI-DG)...









Tons of PEQ availability. I use a fairly hefty LS to bring up the low end on my sealed subs ...









Makes it pretty easy to shape a curve the way you want etc. Here's my current House Curve I'm running (before BEQ). I was flatter there for a while with for BEQ's, but now back to really likeing a rising HC again and feels just about right ...









And last but not least, I've been saving the BEQ config files for each movie in the 10x10 once I have them setup (I'd like to create them for all the movies I have). Works like a charm to load them fast whenever I want to demo a movie or watch it again. Makes it fast, easy and fun 









They've already got like over 300 movies BEQ'd over in that thread. Pretty crazy, and its still growing. We should never have to be without awesome bass on filtered movies ever again. It worked a real treat on the latest Avengers: Infinity War. The diff was soooooo much better I thought. It can make the bad a lot better, the good great, and the great to over the top good with full band down into the singles. Jurassic World : Fallen Kingdom had some killer full band ULF! Pretty dern cool if you ask me    Once you experience what it can do, there is no going back lol. I've been BEQing almost every movie now.


----------



## unretarded

NICE !

I been eying that 10x10 for a while....


Your PEQ looks almost identical to mine...….steep dip below 50hz and about the same low end rise up to about +15 db or so.


I wonder if it is the small room thing......or the nearfield thing ….


----------



## Nalleh

Wow, nice update 
You’ve been busy since you got the 10x10, judging by the number of BEQ’s you saved already.

Awsome to hear you got it all up and running without a hitch 

I agree, now with the 10x10 and WI-DG it is a pleasure to deal with everything LFE related, compared to before with 2x4’s and USB. There really is no going back 

And that FR curve, holy cow! Not much left to optimize there, man

I am probably having a tuning session myself this weekend to dial in the new BK’s, so i get a good starting point for future BEQ’ing.

Fun times


----------



## SBuger

unretarded said:


> NICE !
> 
> I been eying that 10x10 for a while....
> 
> 
> Your PEQ looks almost identical to mine...….steep dip below 50hz and about the same low end rise up to about +15 db or so.
> 
> 
> I wonder if it is the small room thing......or the nearfield thing ….


Thanks man! Yeah I've always been kind of intrigued by the 10x10 and thought...maybe someday would be cool to have one ..well that day has come 

About our FR's being similar, well I think part of it is the room on the low end. I get a lot more room gain now than when I was in my huge living room. But that said, I still have to LS my sealed subs quite a bit to pick the levels up on them up to flat or above (which is cool by me, that means more TR, at least on the VNF subs right behind me because the drivers are so close). I need less on the FF subs that are against the wall (about 2db less LS for them to be the same), but they still need it. I LS my nearfeilds behind me more than my farfields though (about 4-6db more), because I want the TR down low from them more than the weight and pressure from the farfeilds with less TR. It's pretty cool though that one can adjust the two in relation to each other to get the TR and weight ratio to your liking. This is what I do. Plus I find that the higher I run the VNF's down low, or form 30hz and down, I can also get away with running my BK's and MA's higher as well without them feeling unnatural, and thus giving a more ooomphy (is that a word? lol) feel 

But one thing I did that really seemed to help get my curve sloping down more at or around 50hz is that instead of using another LS to lift the low end more, I used a negative HS (-3 to -4db) Q of 0.9 at 45hz. Worked like a charm. I've always ran a little flatter and liked it on movies like Justice League and MMFR etc that really slope down above 30hz that acts more like your running a rising house curve while still getting some great mid bass punch and TR. I love chest punch and TR as well. But putting more slope on the above 40hz area made one hell of a difference on all tracks! I'm able to run my subs 2-3db hotter now and not get too much midbass (or boomy I guess you could say) while getting more under this area. It feels like it's hitting me WAY harder and cleaner with more Low end TR and pressure. I guess the same thing could have been achieved by LSing the low end more, but thought I would try this method and just raise the Sub Trims more. Hot damn, Loving it so far LOL Guess there is a reason most bass heads like a rising HC  

How's the plans coming for the Home Theater House?


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Wow, nice update
> You’ve been busy since you got the 10x10, judging by the number of BEQ’s you saved already.
> 
> Awsome to hear you got it all up and running without a hitch
> 
> I agree, now with the 10x10 and WI-DG it is a pleasure to deal with everything LFE related, compared to before with 2x4’s and USB. There really is no going back
> 
> And that FR curve, holy cow! Not much left to optimize there, man
> 
> I am probably having a tuning session myself this weekend to dial in the new BK’s, so i get a good starting point for future BEQ’ing.
> 
> Fun times



Thanks bro! LOL ..yeah been pretty busy with it and staying up probably WAY too late messing with it all! I may be a wee bit obsessive   

Yep your so right, it really is a pleasure now to deal with everything LFE related compared to before with the USB cables and multiple mini's. Really makes ya appreciate the 10x10 and WI-DG huh!!

About the FR curve, it feels like I've messed with FR's so much now, especially in this room, that's its starting to get easy (well, a lot less struggle I should probably say). Feels like I can almost do it in my sleep now LOL That said, my room does make me work for it though!! Its not an easy room. 

Cool on your upcoming tuning session. If I know you, you'll have it dialed for sure and good for BEQ's. Your good at it and you seem to be a natural at understanding how it all works and needs to work!! I think you've now taken your Bass setup up to the level of your insane Atmos setup. Awesome!!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> But one thing I did that really seemed to help get my curve sloping down more at or around 50hz is that instead of using another LS to lift the low end more, I used a negative HS (-3 to -4db) Q of 0.9 at 45hz. Worked like a charm. I've always ran a little flatter and liked it on movies like Justice League and MMFR etc that really slope down above 30hz that acts more like your running a rising house curve while still getting some great mid bass punch and TR. I love chest punch and TR as well. But putting more slope on the above 40hz area made one hell of a difference on all tracks! I'm able to run my subs 2-3db hotter now and not get too much midbass (or boomy I guess you could say) while getting more under this area. It feels like it's hitting me WAY harder and cleaner with more Low end TR and pressure. I guess the same thing could have been achieved by LSing the low end more, but thought I would try this method and just raise the Sub Trims more. Hot damn, Loving it so far LOL Guess there is a reason most bass heads like a rising HC


Yes, the negative HS is something i use too. I believe it was Shreds who advised me to do it in "my early sono days" to better flatten the curve, instead of boosting the crap out of it. Even more so on the NF JBL’s as they are even more peaky.
And i like i more too 



SBuger said:


> Thanks bro! LOL ..yeah been pretty busy with it and staying up probably WAY too late messing with it all! I may be a wee bit obsessive
> 
> Yep your so right, it really is a pleasure now to deal with everything LFE related compared to before with the USB cables and multiple mini's. Really makes ya appreciate the 10x10 and WI-DG huh!!
> 
> About the FR curve, it feels like I've messed with FR's so much now, especially in this room, that's its starting to get easy (well, a lot less struggle I should probably say). Feels like I can almost do it in my sleep now LOL That said, my room does make me work for it though!! Its not an easy room.
> 
> Cool on your upcoming tuning session. If I know you, you'll have it dialed for sure and good for BEQ's. Your good at it and you seem to be a natural at understanding how it all works and needs to work!! I think you've now taken your Bass setup up to the level of your insane Atmos setup. Awesome!!


Indeed. We have done it so many times and tuned in so many ways, that we are really familiar with what works and what not. Learned a lot of tricks and what we like and what not, so yeah. It has become a routine, LOL.
But i still learn something everytime, and that is really rewarding, when you end up with a better result than when you started. Sure, some of those improvements costs money, but tuning and tweaking is free


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Very nicely said Nalleh, and yeah, I don’t think we ever really stop learning in this game!

Yep I remember you using the negative HS on your JBLs behind you to help tame the top end. So, I’ve been kicking that around in my head for a while as another VERY useful trick. Between that and getting so used to looking at all the different movie PVA graphs in the BEQ thread - some slope down real nice toward the right, while other not as much and then you have ones like Godzilla with next to no slope. There is most definitely a drastic difference in feel and sound between that no slope shape and ones that slope down more to the right like BvsS or MMFR for example. The latter being way more balanced sounding and feeling across the bass spectrum vs the Godzilla type (not much downward slope out to ~80-100hz) that can sound and feel mid bass heavy and lighter on the lower end in comparison. 

I think all that I just mentioned finally clicked in my head that I can use this info to my advantage. And the negative HS and sub trim bump did the trick superbly. I feel like it brought what I was real happy with on the better bass tracks with nice sloping PVAs, up a couple notches at least and made the others better as well. 

Good stuff man, keeps this hobby fun and the learning continuing to help us get the best experience possible


----------



## unretarded

SBuger said:


> Thanks man!
> 
> How's the plans coming for the Home Theater House?



Hope to be out of California by the middle of next year and then get started on it.....lots of ideas and plans.....even pondered the idea a buying a old movie theater and just living in that....LOL


----------



## SBuger

_* Post 1 of 2 (I had too many pics and hit the limit so had to break it up)._

*Update time:* Pretty big update here and getting super close to having this HT room finished (haha yeah right! ...are we ever done!? LOL)

I've been running with two seats for a while (started with just one) and just added a 3rd, 2 more Crowson MAs for this seat, and 2 more sealed 18" subs. Also mounted my BK LFE's a little differently to try something new and moved my seating a little bit, forward a bit more (back where should have been, it moved its way back from me messing with stuff) but mainly my seat is now 'Dead Center Sweet Spot' hehehehehe  ..with one on each side of it now. 3 seats fit just about perfect in this 13' wide room with enough room for the side surround speakers to not be right in your ear and also room for side wall subs, which is cool 

Ok y'all, LOTS of pics here. I always love pics and hope you guys do too  So to kick things off, I'll start with the goodies that arrived at the door step, and who doesn't love getting boxes filled with Home Theater stuff right!!?? That is something I don't think I could ever get tired of even if I probably don't need anymore  

An Inuke 6KDSP, Dayton UM22-18s and Flatpacks to go with them ...









The 3rd HTdesign Pembroke Seat (to go with my other 2)...









And the Drivers and 2 New Crowson MAs with the new style Isolators









On the amp, gotta do the fan mod on the Inukes, otherwise they are just too loud. I already did the mod on my other two a while back and is a must ...









So first thing was to get the Flatpacks put together, prepped, and ready for Duratex and the drivers. These Flatpacks make it easy and fun! In fact my 7 years old daughter helped me unpack them and get them glued together, she loved it!

I wont show every single step, but took a fair amount of pics along the way so might as well post them ...










Lots of clamps makes it easy and fast ..









Prepping the sides with a grinder and sanding blocks ...









Boom ..two of them put together ..









Duratex time ...









I love this stuff, it goes on easy, is tough and looks great I think ...









I only put one coat on them and they still turned out pretty good. Good enough I think since they are going in a very dark room anyway. Here's a close up ...


















5 Gallon buckets work great to paint the back while keeping the top off the floor ..









Pillow stuffing from Wal-Mart and Ties to drop the driver in with. Then once wired and dropped in, I drilled the pilot holes and used 1 1/2 wood screws, worked great ...









Yowza ...done ...









Close up of the Duratex coating ...



























Messing around with them down in the living room before I take them upstairs to the HT room. I listened to some music though them downstairs and thought they sounded great...









Up the stairs to the HT room ...pretty easy actually rolling a 100lb cab and driver up stairs. I just rolled/tumbled them up each stair until at the top. Even rolling/tumbling my "Johnny' sized sub up the stairs like this was pretty easy (way easier than I though it be)...









And into the darkness they go  









The new seat ...and then there were 3  Feels nice to finally have 3 seats in the room. Feels a lot more complete and looks better too I think (balance). As you guys probably already know, its a pretty dark room with all the black velvet and kind of hard to see what's going on sometimes but did the best I could to give you an idea of what it looks like now. There is not a ton of room with 6 subs, 3 seats and bass traps in the corners, so its hard to get back far enough to capture everything with pics, so I kind of have to do it by capturing what I can from each corner ...



















^^^ I had to move the GIK Alpha 6A's that were on the back wall to the side walls since I found I like the rear speakers best were the 6A's were at, allowing me to have them more behind me instead as far off to the sides. Way better envelopment for me this way. 

And behind the seats with a sealed 18' sub behind each 3 seats. A pic from each corner to kind of show what's going on in back of the room and the seats ..gotta have my VNF subs...


----------



## SBuger

_* Post 2 of 2 (continued)_

Now for the new MAs and repositioning of the BK LFE's. I'm trying something new with the BK's by mounting them behind each armrest of the chairs, 4 armrests since the two outside seats share the armrest of the middle seat. Works perfectly since I have 4 BK LFE's. I mounted them like this to a 3'x5.5" piece of oak board that run along the underside of the armrests from front to back...









Then mounted them to the seat like this ...









And on each armrest ...









They fit perfectly between each of the VNF subs behind the seats ...



























And a shot of what it looks like up close on the far right seat. BK LFE on the outside armrest, 2 MAs under the inner frame of the seat and the VNF 18's driver/cone about an 1" away from the back of the seat...









So the two new Dayton UM22-18 sealed subs in 4cuft boxes are positioned on the side walls and work perfect here, allowing me a little bit of walk room to get past into the back of the room. They are Near Field, well at least they are to which ever seat is by one on the outsides, but makes the middle MLP and which ever seat on the opposite side of the far wall Far Field and vise versa, so it works out pretty good. I really like them here in these locations and is curtail as the midbass in my room from about 50-90hz where I cross over and doesn't really have any dips or peaks in the Frequency Response, helping out a tone in this very tough square room. I'll take all the help I can get. The VNFs behind the seats contribute a bit as well to the FR in this region but they are primarily for feel, and not as much for sound. So here is a couple shots of where they reside on each side of the room about 6" away from each side seat...


















Also I've got one up front Far Field now as well which really helps out my 30hz area (Sorry, its really hard to see what going on up front from the darkness but will still give you an idea...









The Amp rack is starting to fill up pretty good now too, where I keep my PC and where the PJ is mounted...









^^^ my wire management with all the speaker wire is starting to get a little out of control, so probably need to straiten that out a little. 

So ....FR. Having 6 subs really helped me a TON in getting a really nice FR with them being spread around the room more without having to use any boost at all. Now all I have to do is make some cuts from various peaks from the room and of course use my LS (Low Shelf ..yes this is boost) to raise up the lower end on the sealed subs and get a real nice Rising House Curve, which I love...









^^^ I don't normally run my projector when I'm initially setting up my FR (or have my door open), but checked out some movie demo afterwards and the HDMI was still hooked up to my laptop so the image came up when I turned on the PJ. So I snapped a shot.

Here's a capture from REW that shows it a lot better. Decently aggressive rising House Curve from high to low. Center Channel + All Subs crossed over at 90hz...









So now for the eye candy stuffs  Can't do an update like this without some screen shot stilsl right!!?? All taken with my iPhone 7...

The Marvel Image that has been my Avatar for a while (I had to take it again with 3 seats since I really like the looks of that Marvel image...









And another one of my favorite screen shots from Tron that I had to re-shoot (and was going to use this one for a new Avatar but liked another one better (maybe I'll switch back to this one after a while for something different). I took this one from 3 different angles...









A head on shot from behind the seats standing in the Amp room. Setting in the seats the screen seems way bigger than it looks here and seems to take up most of my vision. Tron:Legacy is one of my favorites for visuals and is just so immersive, especially the light cycle scenes. Silky smooth pans and neons lights can be mesmerizing setting this close to a 120" 16:9 ...



























And last but not least, another from Tron (I love the visuals and sound in this movie). I've always loved the way this scene looks in the movie at the end of the ever-so-amazing light cycle battle...









And why not ...one more angle and thought it might make a cool Avatar as well  ...









^^^ I really dig the long verticals on these screen shot still and kind of makes my ceiling look way higher that it actually is LOL It's only 8' ceilings, but you can see the reflections from the screen in the lights right above the seats. You can't see them when seated which is cool, but you can on the front ones that light the screen, but I fixed that by hanging blinders over them 

So a lot of pic I know, hope you guys enjoyed them.

*Ok thoughts on it all:*

Feels really good to have the 3rd seat in the room and enough subs now to spread them around the room a little more and really help out my FR without any boost for dips in this tough room, plus each seat now has a sub behind it as well, which I'm a fan of for many reasons. But with 6 now I can have FF, NF and VNF 

So far I'm loving the new subs and think they sound really good. And also I can't even really tell a difference in sound with the Dayton UM18's compared to my SI DS4-18's that I love and wanted to stick with if I could. But didn't happen and had to go with the UM's. I'm delighted with them so far though so all is good 

Also I'm just loving having my seat MLP dead center in the sweet spot. Makes such a difference in totally balanced immersion and presentation!!! Imaging is spot on with all speakers perfect distance away from MLP which help with this. The side seats aren't too bad most of the time, but there really is a reason the sweet spot it called that  It's not just great for the best audio emersion though, it helps the Video the same way being dead center. I absolutely LOVE it and is such a joy after being off the side for quite a while splitting the difference with only two seats, especially with Atmos. 

And speaking of Video, with all the experimenting with TR components (MAs and BKs), my seats have kind of slowly working their way back too far just from me lifting them up over time to try difference MAs placements and whatnot. I noticed this the other day when I could hardly get past my rear surrounds and get squeezed past the subs to get into the door way of the amp and PJ room. So I moved the seats back forward a good 5-6". WOW what a tremendous difference just that much made in immersion!!!  Luckily somehow it doesn't seem too close. I think I'm right about 7' eyes to screen again, maybe a hair closer. Plus now I have a lot more room back behind the seats to walk, which I needed! 

So then there is the 2 more MAs added to the 4 that I had for a total of 6. Two per seat and is real nice. BUT that said, I think I can now get away with just 4 since I've started placing them a little differently now too. Instead of up under the inner frame, which has been best up to this point, I'm now placing them under the oak piece of board that the BKs are mounted on (the BKs are back behind the armrests on this board). I tried the MAs under the armrests before where the back feet are but didn't really like it. I don't know what changed, but I'm diggin' it now with them placed like this. So 4 of them work perfectly now (I didn't show them like this in the pics, I forgot the snap a few pics of then like this). I may try the other two new ones up front on the middle MLP seat in addition to the ones towards the rear of the armrests and see what that feels like. Either way, I'm really happy with the MAs, just 4 of them ATM. Or I could stack them like @Nallehh just did with his too. Their is still a lot of experimenting I'm wanting to do with them and TR. We'll see. I'm also very intrigued with @trhought 's BOSS that he just built for his system that he makes sound amazing (and look amazing with his videos too). Definitely gonna try that out too, maybe this summer or even early spring. Will probably try it downstairs in my little setup in the living room AND up here in the HT room. I think it has some AMAZING possibilities from the sounds of it. I do love my BK's and MAs (most of the time) + the VNFs, but I'm always open to the possibly of trying new thing and maybe finding something that works even better. I like to keep and open mind and try new stuff. In fact that is part of the fun for me I think. 

So that's all I'll say right now about my TR, for the most part I love it, but I do think it can be better in ways sometimes. There are a few things I want to try with the MAs and BK's and then the BOSS as well. So I'm looking forward to that. 

So to wrap this up, I find it kind of funny that the thing I'm enjoying the most I think out of all the new gear (seats, MAs and 2 more subs), is the Video Immersion, then the Atmos and lastly the Bass LOL. I find it funny because I'm usually and have always been a Bass first kind of guy and them Atmos and Video next if I'm happy with my Bass. I think it mainly has to do with being dead center now, plus being moved up closer to the screen for FULL immersion for the Video, and as for the Audio, the sweet spot has worked wonders as well as being farther forward, the Atmos from above is better as well. Something else too, but can't quite put my finger on it, but I'm loving it ATM and will take it  The wife and I watched A Star is Born twice and it was so cool being this close to a 120". Looked and felt so real, like we were right there with them. Also Tron: Legacy looked and felt insane with this immersion. Absolutely love it. 

So I'm really happy with my Bass too for the most part I think (there are probably a few things I'll continue to tweak), but am really digging it too. It' the whole package though really that I'm loving, because they really do all work together to bring the HT experience. So I feel like I'm in a pretty good place with it all now, and that's good because I can be super picky with it and probably spend way too much time tweaking it all (even though I do love this part too). I'm now (at least for a little while), ready to just kick back and really enjoy some movies that I haven't seen yet and check out a lot of the new BEQ's that have been recently done in the BEQ thread, although I did check out the new Tron BEQ and dang, it's good. BEQ is still amazing me how it can make an already fantastic track even better!!

There is more I could talk about as well, but will leave it all at that for a while. I've got a trip coming up soon so will have to be away from the system for a while, so wanted to get this update done. I've been meaning to do it, but have had a lot of company, kid home from school a lot, as well as just everyday life stuff. But got'er done finally


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## AmerCa

Wow. You made it look so easy. You have a beautiful setup and a very nice room. I'll come back to this thread when I'm finally ready for my next upgrade. I'm _almost_ certain I'll take the AIY route, and your pics make it seem like I'll finish it (them?) in two hours, lol. Soooo easy.

Very nice, man.

Enviado desde mi XT1032 mediante Tapatalk


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## Nalleh

WOW, WOW, WOW what a awsome update, Bug 
And yes, yes, yes we love pics 

Quite the little Christmas you had there with all the presents  Those flat packs look awsome, and i bet it is a fun time putting those together, they came out great 

Your setup looks insane now with 3 seats, that close to the screen and all those NF’s !
I hear you on sitting dead center, it is a big deal, and i have a 2 seater too, so when i watch alone, i move the couch so i sit in the middle. As you say much better, both picture and sound immersion, espesially with Atmos.
Also agree with you on the surr. back more to the rear than sides, think we discussed this earlier too 

And 6 x 18" ! Wow, starting to get serious, man 
I have 4x18" FF and my 12x12" NF equals 3x18"’s, so i guess 7x18", LOL.
But have you considered moving your UM18" to FF instead? I wonder if 3 up front(i have 4) would give more room gain down low.

That being said, yuor FR looks spot on, good job man

And yes, unless you build a platform like me, i guess 4 MA’s make more sense, the way your seats are lined up.

And i know the feeling when you setup something new and watch a movie, where all of it just adds up, and you just sit there smiling trough the movie. Those are the moments we work for


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## ereed

Wow....reading your update makes me want to buy more subs. Also you are pretty good at DIY! I'd pay you to build me a few of these if you lived next door! Looking good!


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## trhought

Wow....awesome update SBuger. It was indeed a great Christmas with all those goodies Santa brought!

I'm admiring your speaker building skills and that duratex finish looks factory!....you've been a busy little elf with those and all the TR experiments...lol. Love reading your posts and looking at your pictures. It's so hard to get great pictures and I'm sure you've spent a lot of time to get those right. They look awesome and your Tron pictures always "pop" nicely. Truly avatar quality for sure!

Always pleasantly surprises me every time I see a picture of your theater with the seats reclined. It seems like you're sitting right next to the screen, then I saw your 7' seating position and I guess your feet are pretty darn close to the screen when reclined...lol.

The immersion must be incredible, both visually and physically! I just ran a quick calculation and your seating/screen ratio is surprising close to mine....yours is .7 (7' seating distance divided by 10' screen diagonal), mine is .71 (10' seating distance divided by 14' screen diagonal). I bet your immersion is even better though because of the 1.85 : 1 aspect ratio....mine is 2.35 : 1 so I don't get as much vertical immersion which I think is just as important as horizontal immersion.

You've made the most of your space for sure with all the tactile instruments you've utilized plus maximizing your visual setup to it's fullest! Impressive.....must be a joy to watch any movie with your setup...getting lost in the movie and experiencing an alternate reality! Bravo!


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## SBuger

AmerCa said:


> Wow. You made it look so easy. You have a beautiful setup and a very nice room. I'll come back to this thread when I'm finally ready for my next upgrade. I'm _almost_ certain I'll take the AIY route, and your pics make it seem like I'll finish it (them?) in two hours, lol. Soooo easy.
> 
> Very nice, man.
> 
> Enviado desde mi XT1032 mediante Tapatalk


Thanks for the kind words AmerCa!! 

Sounds like a plan if you end up going that route with the sub building. Let me know if you have questions whenever the time comes.

Yeah depending on how much time you can devote to them, they can be done fairly quickly. A little more than two hours though, but still not too bad


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> WOW, WOW, WOW what a awsome update, Bug
> And yes, yes, yes we love pics
> 
> Quite the little Christmas you had there with all the presents  Those flat packs look awsome, and i bet it is a fun time putting those together, they came out great
> 
> Your setup looks insane now with 3 seats, that close to the screen and all those NF’s !
> I hear you on sitting dead center, it is a big deal, and i have a 2 seater too, so when i watch alone, i move the couch so i sit in the middle. As you say much better, both picture and sound immersion, espesially with Atmos.
> Also agree with you on the surr. back more to the rear than sides, think we discussed this earlier too
> 
> And 6 x 18" ! Wow, starting to get serious, man
> I have 4x18" FF and my 12x12" NF equals 3x18"’s, so i guess 7x18", LOL.
> But have you considered moving your UM18" to FF instead? I wonder if 3 up front(i have 4) would give more room gain down low.
> 
> That being said, yuor FR looks spot on, good job man
> 
> And yes, unless you build a platform like me, i guess 4 MA’s make more sense, the way your seats are lined up.
> 
> And i know the feeling when you setup something new and watch a movie, where all of it just adds up, and you just sit there smiling trough the movie. Those are the moments we work for


Thanks my bro Nalleh!!

Yeah I remember you saying you did that when watching by yourself. Cool that your able to move your seats over like that when you want 

Yep we are both getting pretty serious with our subs I think  I tell you what looks insane though, is those 12x12s NF right behind your seats. So freaking cool looking, and feeling too probably!! In one of your latest pics showing the stacked MAs down low, you can see the row of 12x12s spanning the length of your couch and look ridiculously awesome!!  

As far as moving the UMs to FF at the front or further up on the side walls for more room gain, I don't really get anymore that way. They are all pretty similar for this in any location, within a db or 2 anyway. Plus the UMs where they are at on the sides that are about inline with the seating gives me good 50-90hz coverage, where other locations don't, so I and really need that in this room for good sounding midbass. I could move them a little farther forward too but would be right where I need my side surrounds. If I move them ahead of the side surrounds, then I see them when watching movies. I could always put some velvet on them too and would work if I pointed them in a direction that I couldn't see the driver or facing back towards me. I have tried that and the FR is about the same across the board, so not much gained really and don't have to deal with the other. 

With them being where they are at, they still give a Far Field sound and feel - fullness and weight though, even though they are pretty close. As long as they are not directly behind me or closer than 5-6" inches away on the sides to the outside seats (when in the seat next to it), they still give a FF effect with maybe a bit more TR than being farther away up front if that makes sense. The MLP seat is more like FF to both subs on each side though. 

It's really cool though actually having these 3 different locations to work with, the VNF, NF and FF, even though the true or most FF is only one up front. As you probably already know, the subs really close directly behind the seating mainly brings the FEEL and not so much the sound, fullness, weight and pressure compared to the FF or even NF. The opposite is true for the FF and NF compared to the VNF, giving more of all later and less TR. This is pretty easy to tell if you've ever tried using just your VNFs or only the FFs. Each on their own is missing certain ingredients. That's why the combo of them is so hard to beat. 

So I try to use this to my advantage to dial in the amount of fullness, weight and pressure to the amount of TR I like to work together and give me what I like of both when combined. 

I don't like a crap ton of pressure on my ears from ULF but love the TR with a fair amount of pressure to go with it, which can still feel like quite a bit sometimes. Therefore I run my VNF subs LS'd the strongest of the 3 positions with an LS 9db @20hz for a lot of ULF TR wobble from them. Then the NFs get LS of 7db and the FF up front gets the least at LS 2db or less. So it reads way lower down low on the FF up front with a REW sweep, but running them all like this, the TR, weight, fullness/thickness and pressure feels and sounds about right to me while giving me a nice rising House Curve to go with it. If I get too much low end with too aggressive of LS on the NFs and especially the FF up front, its just gets too heavy and pressurized feeling to me without as much TR from the subs as I'd like. So I could actually get quite a bit more low end rise if I LS the NFs a little more and FF as much as I do to match the VNFs, but with trial and error I've about found the ratios that I like with setting each LS in these 3 different locations a little differently. That's what I was talking about when I say I may continue to tweak a little bit for a while, as well as just how much midbass TR I want from the VNFs, which can become too much and distracting if I'm not careful. I love a certain amount of it, but too much sharpness can be not so good, especially at higher listening levels. Like everything else I guess, a good balance is key! lol 

It really is amazing what just changing these different locations LSs on the low end can do for the ratios that I listed up above. It really allows one to tailor what they like. Some of us seem to like more pressure and weight than others I think, while some may prefer maybe a little more TR for what feels most balanced and or comfortable to them. Take MKtheater for example. From his posts and interactions with him in various threads, sounds like he like HEAPS of weight and pressure with super high SPLs and not quite a much TR, and why he prefers all his subs to be FF and on concrete with no riser or MAs. That's cool too that he like that, but my ears just cant take it and then I long for far more TR. Preferences differ in this hobby for sure, and quite a bit sometimes I think. Which is cool, we cant all be the same 

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that having multiple sub locations (or banks of subs in different locations), is that they can act as very helpful components in dialing in what you want out the TR and other, as far as the subs go that is. I like getting as much TR as possible from the subs themselves before even adding in the MAs and BKs. Especially for ULF.


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## SBuger

ereed said:


> Wow....reading your update makes me want to buy more subs. Also you are pretty good at DIY! I'd pay you to build me a few of these if you lived next door! Looking good!


Hey thanks man!! LOL I'd do it, I loved building them actually. My wife even said, hey you ought to build and sell them hahaha. But they are pretty simple with the flatpacks and guides on AVS. Plus folks usually go the DIY route instead of ID because they want to save money and or maybe want a special size or shape. That said though, you could probably do it pretty easy yourself if you ever wanted to, but probably not quite as cool as your Funks and may not sound as good either. Definitely cheaper though and perform and sound great. I've never heard funks but hear wonderful things about them and supposed to be one of the best subs around. Cool that you a have them!


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## SBuger

trhought said:


> Wow....awesome update SBuger. It was indeed a great Christmas with all those goodies Santa brought!
> 
> I'm admiring your speaker building skills and that duratex finish looks factory!....you've been a busy little elf with those and all the TR experiments...lol. Love reading your posts and looking at your pictures. It's so hard to get great pictures and I'm sure you've spent a lot of time to get those right. They look awesome and your Tron pictures always "pop" nicely. Truly avatar quality for sure!
> 
> Always pleasantly surprises me every time I see a picture of your theater with the seats reclined. It seems like you're sitting right next to the screen, then I saw your 7' seating position and I guess your feet are pretty darn close to the screen when reclined...lol.
> 
> The immersion must be incredible, both visually and physically! I just ran a quick calculation and your seating/screen ratio is surprising close to mine....yours is .7 (7' seating distance divided by 10' screen diagonal), mine is .71 (10' seating distance divided by 14' screen diagonal). I bet your immersion is even better though because of the 1.85 : 1 aspect ratio....mine is 2.35 : 1 so I don't get as much vertical immersion which I think is just as important as horizontal immersion.
> 
> You've made the most of your space for sure with all the tactile instruments you've utilized plus maximizing your visual setup to it's fullest! Impressive.....must be a joy to watch any movie with your setup...getting lost in the movie and experiencing an alternate reality! Bravo!


Thanks for the very nice comments, Tim!!

It was a lot of pics to take and I didn't really realize just how many I had taken along the way until I gathered them all up for the post. Like close to 50 I think that looked half way post worthy LOL. Then of course, the pic limit count is only 30 per post so I had to break the posts into 2. The iPhone 7 actually makes it pretty easy though to take the pics, most of the time. Sometimes I just point and shoot and am like, wow that was easy and turned out pretty good. Other times it doesn't matter how hard I try to get a good shot on certain things, it just doesn't happen for different reasons. But most of the time, the iphone just nails the pics exposure etc. 

LOL on the feet being close when reclined, which is how I always watch and even just leave the seats in their reclined positions at all times, plus I have the seat backs in relations to the the VNFs right where I want them. This would probably drive some folks nuts, but I actually like it. Yeah I'm weird LOL My feet are about 2' away from the screen and surprisingly don't get into the image. When I first started watching in this room with the blackouts, I did notice my feet a little bit if I wore white socks, but I guess I got used to it because I don't really ever notice them anymore. And is especially not a problem if I where black socks lol. 

But occasionally my wife will check in on me watching a movie and she usually gets a kick out of seeing my feet so close to the screen and a big ole smile on my face LOL 

Wow cool with our ratios being so close, that's pretty much identical actually!! If I had my choice though, I'd go with your 10' distance to a 14' screen giving the same distance and immersive feel ratio without having to be so darned close. That would widen the sweet spot video for all the seating positions too. That way with say 3 seats wide, the outer seats wouldn't be as close to the edge of the screen and closer to the center if that makes sense. But we gotta work with what we got and so far I've been real happy with it, at least in the MLP center spot  No body else cares nearly as much as I do about it anyway lol

But yeah crazy immersive and especially so with 16:9 content. There is not a lot of it when it comes to movies, but the ones that do it's pretty crazy. I wish they were all 16:9 actually, as it just seems way bigger with the extra vertically immersion. But that is never going to happen so might as well not even think like that hahaha

I do get a whole lotta enjoyment out of the system and tried really hard to maximize it all!

Again, thanks for the wonderful comments my friend!


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## subacabra

Very cool update Shelby! Haven't popped into your thread in a while and this is really a treat to see! 
You're enthusiasm and passion comes through in every post, and I definitely enjoy all the details and pictures.
Tron Legacy is in my top five favorite movies and I can't even imagine how awesome it must be on your setup!
I see you went with HTmarket seating, I just got their Paget row of three sofa style powered and I absolutely love them. 
Plenty of room behind them to add some nf 18's as well and your build has definitely given me some motivation to start looking into that 
Great stuff man, keep it coming and enjoy!
-Justin


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## Nalleh

About my MA pic with the 12x12, i was down there in the back trying to get a good pic of the stack with different angles and what not, and after rewieving some of the pics, i noticed the 12x12 was also noticable, and thought that would be a cool pic, so i optimized more pics for showing both  i love it too 

Ok, sounds like you have tried the FF vs NF options then. Reason i said it is if i mute my FF’s, A LOT of the ULF is missing, even if my REW FR shows the same curve for both NF’s and FF’s.

Yeah, i am probably a TR guy myself vs SPL, which is why i don’t listen at reference. The LFE however is probably close to reference though, with the house curve, LS and hot LFE, but it is not in the midbass area, where SPL can get fatiguing fast. ULF is more tolerable. For me anyway(but maybe not for the house, LOL) But i don’t have a sealed room like yours, so i guess i don’t have the same pressure problem.
I really envy you guys with a sealed room and also if you have a seperate room for equipment, like you have. To be able to ONLY have the screen to look at, is so much more immersive. Even one little LED light can be distracting, and also like i said the benefits of a sealed room on top of that. Awsome 

And yes i agree with the others, your pictures are awsome, i sometimes try to take pics like that, but just don’t get it right


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## SBuger

subacabra said:


> Very cool update Shelby! Haven't popped into your thread in a while and this is really a treat to see!
> You're enthusiasm and passion comes through in every post, and I definitely enjoy all the details and pictures.
> Tron Legacy is in my top five favorite movies and I can't even imagine how awesome it must be on your setup!
> I see you went with HTmarket seating, I just got their Paget row of three sofa style powered and I absolutely love them.
> Plenty of room behind them to add some nf 18's as well and your build has definitely given me some motivation to start looking into that
> Great stuff man, keep it coming and enjoy!
> -Justin



Hey thanks for stopping by and for the super nice comments, Justin!! It's been a while since I've updated and figured it was time  Sounds like you've done the same thing. Congrats on the new seating and sounds like you made a great choice!! I think HTmarket definitely makes some good seating and I really like mine as well. It's a tough choice with so many different brands and models available. 

Cool man, yeah some sealed 18's to go behind your new seats to compliment those awesome PSA 3601s would probably work great if you decide to do that!  Would probably be no problem for you since you built your volts and have a bit of experience with speaker building already. 

Thanks again for stopping by man! Looks like the big guy in your avatar still loves his subs and bass too, taking after you


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> About my MA pic with the 12x12, i was down there in the back trying to get a good pic of the stack with different angles and what not, and after rewieving some of the pics, i noticed the 12x12 was also noticable, and thought that would be a cool pic, so i optimized more pics for showing both  i love it too
> 
> Ok, sounds like you have tried the FF vs NF options then. Reason i said it is if i mute my FF’s, A LOT of the ULF is missing, even if my REW FR shows the same curve for both NF’s and FF’s.
> 
> Yeah, i am probably a TR guy myself vs SPL, which is why i don’t listen at reference. The LFE however is probably close to reference though, with the house curve, LS and hot LFE, but it is not in the midbass area, where SPL can get fatiguing fast. ULF is more tolerable. For me anyway(but maybe not for the house, LOL) But i don’t have a sealed room like yours, so i guess i don’t have the same pressure problem.
> I really envy you guys with a sealed room and also if you have a seperate room for equipment, like you have. To be able to ONLY have the screen to look at, is so much more immersive. Even one little LED light can be distracting, and also like i said the benefits of a sealed room on top of that. Awsome
> 
> And yes i agree with the others, your pictures are awsome, i sometimes try to take pics like that, but just don’t get it right




Well I find with my VNF 18's, the same ones I used down in my very open living room that opens up to the rest of the first floor (about ~10,000cuft) sounds and feels about the same in this small room positioned behind my seats the same way with the same LS 9 as in this 1400cuft room. Meaning kinda thin and WAY more TR than sound fullness and weight. With 3 VNFs spread out a bit with one behind each seat, the ones behind the seats to the sides of the seat I'm in do act a little more like NF/FR though and helps with the sound some, making it a bit fuller. But still the sound is too thin with them only, even though the TR is fantastic but just doesn't cut it for overall bass experience. Some farther away in conjunction is most definitely needed, even in a very small room, which kind of surprised me. The ones farther away make a huge difference in that full sound, weight and pressure. Like night and day actually, but the trade is WAY less feel and TR and amount of ULF wobble I get from them. Even cranked way the hell up by themselves doesn't even come close to comparing to what they give right behind me for TR and feel. They are like the Crowsons way down deep, and even better in some ways to give you an idea. But they do bring what the VNFs are missing beyond the TR department for sure and seems to do it pretty easily, or easier than in my huge open room down stairs did, especially below 20hz. 

I agree, I do find that even with similar looking FRs down low from the NF or FF and VNF, there is just not nearly the same level of sound, weight and pressure with the VNFs, but just kick the holy crap out of the NFs or FFs for ULF wobble power, and other TR as well. It's a trade off for sure, but makes using both a fantastic match IMO. You don't have to kill your ears with mega SPL with the Far Fields and still not get enough ULF wobble power while getting a pretty crazy amount of that awesome ULF wobble power from the VNFs even at very reasonable SPL levels. Having both allows one to dial in whatever you want, at least it does for me, or close to it anyway. Then the MAs and BK's help as well for even more wobble power if so desired. 

But I loved what I had downstairs too, especially for wobble (my 16hz wobble power now still can't quite match what I had downstairs, its mainly a seating difference I think), but just didn't get the fullness and weight down super low like now. Plus I'm like you, I don't listen super loud. Well my bass at spirited levels (-10mv at my highest) but with HC, and subs hot, it's around ref like you, but its lower at night but still get some pretty good weight down low to go with the TR.

Yeah I probably have my midbass turned up a little more than yours, I think your HC is steeper than mine. I've messed with mine quite a bit and think I've finally got it about where I like it. But some mixes depending on the PVA slope, sometimes I like a little less mid bass to be able to keep my sub levels up higher to really get that ULF. I can handle more ULF too than midbass like you, but still I have to be careful. As you know, I've got some problems with my ears and have to be super careful with SPL and tweak my system a certain way for it to be comfortable forme, especially with the highs as I have some abnormal crap going on with my ears/body and have for a long time. I do what I have to do to still enjoy and just try to listen to my ears and the way they feel to guide me with what's comfortable and what's not. I'll tell ya one thing though, the VNFs have been a god send for me to be able to get more slam and TR from the subs without having to listen super loud. I'm very thankful for that!!

Anyway though, I hear ya on having/wanting a sealed room dedicated to HT with a place to put equipment and stuff as well for ought of sight when watching. I've wanted this for as long as I can remember and luckily finally found a way to do it without having to move yet. It's super small but works very well for what it is, for now, and makes me very happy, making all the things you listed easier. But like I mentioned before, I loved my setup downstairs too, even though there were some things down there not possible to do like in the dedicated room now.

But I tell ya, I'm just so super impressed with what you've done in your living room setup with all retractable velvet when movie time, your insane Atmos setup as well as the bass and TR, among other things!!. Just killer and I'm sure it's an amazing experience to watch a movie with your setup. Truly impressive job man, bravo!! It's better than what I had on my living room and I worked real hard on it trying to get the most out of it that I could. I did the absolute most I could get away with and not get divorced LOL. 

Thanks about the pics my dude! I've always liked the pics part of it for some reason and is fun to do here on AVS with the HT stuff. My family and some around here have thought I have a knack for it I guess, whether I actually do or not, IDK. But I do have fun with it and is cool when I get lucky sometimes and get a good shot. This little iphone 7 surprisingly makes it way easier to use than my big ole DSLR camera, so that's what I use. Part of the beauty of using it though is you can easily take a bunch of pics fast and then just delete the crap pictures, which I get a lot of too LOL. But a lot of times, if you take enough, you get a few keepers along the way with some of them having a bit of sparkle. All that said, I don't consider myself a great photographer by any means, just get lucky sometimes with some of the stuff I'm trying to shoot. 

As for your pictures, I really enjoy them and think you have taken some fantastic ones!! Even with your last set of pics of your stacked MA project, there were some great pics!! And then that pic of the MAs plus the all the VNF 12x12s right behind, EPIC!!! LOVE that pic and one of my favorites on AVS. Sometimes it really is all about the angles too (and lighting), once you've got the gear and setup. Keep on shooting them pics, you'll get more of what your looking for sooner or later. Sometimes it just seems to take the right scene and even angle for a good still shot for example, and same with a piece of gear etc, like in your Epic NF and stacked MA shot. You've got a bunch of them actually of your subs even before that.


----------



## Nalleh

^^^Indeed. Like, 10 years ago i just though having a subwoofer was enough: it is just a big speaker with deep notes.
Boy have i learned a lot since them, LOL.
LFE is so much more than just a big speaker, as i think we both have discovered. We have a lot of similar components, with FF, NF, MA, BK and suspended floors. No single component can do it all, and each component adds to the LFE/ULF, and together it is so much more than just a big speaker.

Getting it all tweaked and sounding right, as you say, is where Nirvana lays 

I wonder if there is a "one component" LFE system that can do it all , LOL ?

Yeah, i remember you have some ear issues, and good on you for tweaking your setup to take that into consideration. You only have one set of ears 

Speaking of that: does your wife notice/comment on your special setup for your ears?

Thanks for the comment on my room. As you know, having the HT in your living room includes a lot of compromises, but since i am single, there is no WAF to consider, as i doubt 30-some speakers in the living room would be acceptable, LOL.

Thanks about the pics too, i try to make a thread the way i like to read others threads: lots of pics with explaining text, try to explain what i do, why, what happens(results) and so on. Not just shiny pics of a finshed project, but more "behind the scenes". I always love reading such things myself, so i try to make my thread like that.

You do the same, so i love your thread too 

And yes i agree on the phone vs DSLR camera issues too, i have both and tend to just use the phone. I always document every little project, not just for publishing, but also to remember how it looked/was connected and so on. And for every pic i publish, there is probably 10 more on the phone, just so easy to click away


----------



## ereed

SBuger said:


> When I first started watching in this room with the blackouts, I did notice my feet a little bit if I wore white socks, but I guess I got used to it because I don't really ever notice them anymore. And is especially not a problem if I where black socks lol.
> 
> But yeah crazy immersive and especially so with 16:9 content. There is not a lot of it when it comes to movies, but the ones that do it's pretty crazy. I wish they were all 16:9 actually, as it just seems way bigger with the extra vertically immersion. But that is never going to happen so might as well not even think like that hahaha
> 
> I do get a whole lotta enjoyment out of the system and tried really hard to maximize it all!


Time to start making velvet socks not just for you but other potential guests....its a new requirement!

You may get what you want! With IMAX enhanced being released they are supposed to be using bigger ratios similar to 16x9 rather than scope so maybe more movies will go back to 16x9. This make sense since most people have tvs (not projectors) and can't stand the black bars during scope content. So just hold on to your 16x9 screen!


----------



## ereed

@SBuger I'm curious when you calibrate your speakers and run REW do you just do one MLP to set up time alignment or multiple seats? I'm guessing you just do the middle seat for everything?


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> ^^^Indeed. Like, 10 years ago i just though having a subwoofer was enough: it is just a big speaker with deep notes.
> Boy have i learned a lot since them, LOL.
> LFE is so much more than just a big speaker, as i think we both have discovered. We have a lot of similar components, with FF, NF, MA, BK and suspended floors. No single component can do it all, and each component adds to the LFE/ULF, and together it is so much more than just a big speaker.
> 
> Getting it all tweaked and sounding right, as you say, is where Nirvana lays
> 
> *I wonder if there is a "one component" LFE system that can do it all , LOL ?*
> 
> Yeah, i remember you have some ear issues, and good on you for tweaking your setup to take that into consideration. You only have one set of ears
> 
> Speaking of that: does your wife notice/comment on your special setup for your ears?
> 
> Thanks for the comment on my room. As you know, having the HT in your living room includes a lot of compromises, but since i am single, there is no WAF to consider, as i doubt 30-some speakers in the living room would be acceptable, LOL.
> 
> Thanks about the pics too, i try to make a thread the way i like to read others threads: lots of pics with explaining text, try to explain what i do, why, what happens(results) and so on. Not just shiny pics of a finshed project, but more "behind the scenes". I always love reading such things myself, so i try to make my thread like that.
> 
> You do the same, so i love your thread too
> 
> And yes i agree on the phone vs DSLR camera issues too, i have both and tend to just use the phone. I always document every little project, not just for publishing, but also to remember how it looked/was connected and so on. And for every pic i publish, there is probably 10 more on the phone, just so easy to click away


LOL I doubt it on the one component for all, at least not for what we want out of our systems bass and TR wise, but ya never know I guess. I know I sure haven’t found a one component system to do it all yet, or how to tweak it so that it will lol

As far as me tweaking for my ears and the wife noticing, nah she hasn’t really at all. But that said, she is so not into details when it comes to HT audio and could really care less actually. Plus she doesn’t hear highs well at all and I don’t think she can even tell what so ever that I cut them way back. She just wants to be able to hear the dialog and she’s happy lol. 

I think any AVS guys would notice the highs cut right away, but I gotta do what I gotta do to be able to tolerate it and still enjoy this hobby that I've love so dearly. That’s one of the things I really like about the KEFs I’m running ATM though, is that they have fantastic mids (to me anyway) and can be fairly forward sounding. So even with cutting the highs way back, it’s can still sound pretty detailed on these movie sound tracks (well again, at least to me) and makes it real enjoyable without feeling like I'm missing much at all.

Yeah I really like those kind of threads too with lots of pics and explanations/info to go with it as well as the behind the scenes pics and stuff. And yep, yours is one of the very best for this, so ditto man!


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## SBuger

ereed said:


> Time to start making velvet socks not just for you but other potential guests....its a new requirement!
> 
> You may get what you want! With IMAX enhanced being released they are supposed to be using bigger ratios similar to 16x9 rather than scope so maybe more movies will go back to 16x9. This make sense since most people have tvs (not projectors) and can't stand the black bars during scope content. So just hold on to your 16x9 screen!


LOL for sure!! There for a whole right after I did all the blackout treatments since my feet and legs are so close to the screen, I would use a piece of velvet like a blanket to cover up with, it just started getting annoying after a while and was too hot LOL. But it did totally fish out the total blackout process so that ALL that you see is the image on the screen hahaha. Was cool for a while, but now I don’t even really notice my feet and legs anymore without that, and when I do occasionally where blacks socks, it helps too.

Very cool on the IMAX stuff, I’ll have to look into that. Maybe I’ll get my wish after all then  



ereed said:


> @SBuger I'm curious when you calibrate your speakers and run REW do you just do one MLP to set up time alignment or multiple seats? I'm guessing you just do the middle seat for everything?


Yeah I just do the middle seat for this mainly, but did check the other two seats as well especially since I’m back to using one subout from the AVR for all 6 subs. Then I’m now just using one position at the middle seat as well for Audy cal too. The minimum is 3 position, so I keep the mic pics petty tight at the MLP for this.


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## Nalleh

^^ Yeah, i guess there is a one component to do it all, and that is big FF’s and many of them, but then the problem is that to get the TR you want from FF’s you need massive SPL, And that kind of rules it out, LOL.

But i wonder if a sealed room, not to big, on suspended floor, with 2 Cap 4000ULF would get you close. Those are massive!

Anyway, i am rather happy with what i got, and that is whats important 

Well, if the wife doesn’t notice/care, then i guess all is well  As you say, turning down a bit of treble is a fair compromise to be able to enjoy the rest of our movie watching hobby aspects 

It could have been worse: what if the wife was allergic to LFE, LOL


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## SBuger

^^^ Very true, but then we are back to MASSIVE SPL again to get it, which is cool for some folks I guess. I'd like to be one that can listen super loud, but I'm just not one of those guys. 

Yea could be with the cap4000ULFs!. But you know what, If I had *TWO* of them one would most definitely put one up front and then one to go right behind my seat (if I could fit it) for probably the ultimate in ULF wobble power intensity, like maybe even make you puke and very dizzy kind of intensity that would slaughter having them just FF only, even on suspended floor hehehehehe. I'm amazed at what just a ported 15" FV15HP parked right behind me or a sealed 18's positioned the same way can do for ULF wobble power, I bet the cap4000 would just dominate you with raw wobble power down low!  I'd love to try it some day!!  But then we are back to multiple components with at least 2 sub locations again LOL

Yeah allergic to LFE from the wife wouldn't be cool at all. Some wife's around here are I think LOL


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## Nalleh

BTW, about BEQ: are you still plotting them in manually?

Lately i have downloaded BEQ Designer, as it now works on both Mac(thanks to DesertDog) and PC. It makes loading BEQ a dream 

Here’s how it works: open BEQd >open BEQ file>export biquad>save Biquad(name it and save in a BEQ biquad folder on your Mac).
Open Minidsp>input1>PEQ>advanced>import>choose the biquad file from above> DONE !!

No more plotting in numbers ! No more changing/loading configs !

And when done watching the movie, go to input 1 again and click CLEAR, and the biquad is gone= flat.

(You can of course save configs as before, but it is much faster and easier just importing the biquad)

If you do the open BEQ >export biquad> save for a couple of movie you plan to watch/or your favourites, importing/clearing those biquds is instant, so much faster than doing it manually 

Only problem is (as before) when a BEQ has more than 6 filters(our 10x10 limitation), but it is still faster to mod those rare BEQ’s in BEQd than in REW like it did even more manually earlier.


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## SBuger

^^^Nope I haven't tried it yet, mainly cause I've been messing with all the new stuff lately trying to get it done with the build and new cals etc. So just been manually putting them in on a few of them that I'm trying for the first time, or mod'ing the saved configs to work with my new settings in my 10x10 mini that I have going for whatever changes I've made with the new equipment and cal. 

Has worked good for now, but sounds AWESOME how your doing it now with BEQd and on the mac! Way cool, thanks for reminding me (and the procedures) about this and also for the heads up on our 10x10 with only 6 filter spots (I really do wish it had 10 like the 2x4HD, but have to work with what we have and I really do love the 10x10 other than that, and of course the 15' distance limit). Maybe they can change that with a future firmware upgrade for the 10x10hd. Easier enough to manually mod/add remaining filters above 6 if there is more needed though when need be, since we seem to have plenty of practice with this already LOL


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## Nalleh

Ok, i can understand you have had your hands full with the upgrades, just though i would tip you on this, since we both have the 10x10 and so far have done it manually.

Yeah, that’s the beaty of doing it this way with the biquads, you aren’t messing with any of your others settings in the 10x10, your HC, EQ, routing, levels, delay, everything is untouched and as you want it, it is genious 

I’ve been thinking about that 6 filter limit. We have 8x8 analog in/outputs pluss 2 digital in/outputs.

What if you send your sub1 out from your AVR to analog input 1 on the 10x10, as you do today. Then in the routing, you send that input to digital out 1. Then you loop for example a optical cable from digital out1 to digital input 1, then in routing send digital 1 input to your normal output 1( or whatever you route it to=your sub).

In other words you loop the sub signal via the digital-out>digital-in that we don’t use anyway, and thereby you now have 12 filters(on both in and output), and more delay possibilities.

(It is of course doable to do the looping with the normal analog in/outputs too)

With the biquads above 6 filters you would need to "split" it in two biquad files, but that is easy enough with a little cut and paste.

What do you think?


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## SBuger

^^^ Yes that sure could work Mr. Nallah!! Your always thinking aren't you, I love it!! Double the delay and double the filters spots available, nice!

Jeez my friend Nallah, my head is kind of spinning right now, not because of this cool idea of yours which is awesome for sure, but just got the news that we may be moving and not just to a different house but different city. Exciting and nerve racking at the same time for many reasons. BUT I just got my theater room about like I want it and am just loving the crap out of it for a lot of different reasons. Was a lot of work and is kinda my baby if ya know what I mean haha. I hate to say it, but this HT stuff is such a huge part of my life that bring joy and this room/setup is a huge part of it LOL. More to life than HT though hahahahaha. 

That said, hopefully if we do it, I can find a good space wherever we end up and start the process over again, and maybe improve upon what I've got going on now and enjoy so much. Will definitely have to take all the gear and knowledge I've gained with setting it all up with the two setups I've had in this house and try to apply it to the new.

Sorry had to tell somebody about it. We'll see what happens, nothing is for sure yet and will have some big decisions to make after vacation next week. Sigh ...never a dull moment in life sometimes it seems lol


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## Nalleh

^^ WOW, that is big news on a friday :O

I can relate to how your’e feeling about it, LOL. Change is never good..... until you do it  But with the two times you have built it up, maybe third time is the charm 

Well, that can sure be exciting times ahead for you and your family then, and i hope it all works out, and i hope you will keep us in loop about the progress


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## SBuger

^^ Thanks man! Well I could be getting a little ahead of myself and getting worked up over nothing before giving it a bit more time and thought to get it all figured out, but is a strong possibility in the near future. 

We'll see what happens I guess. If we do move and I have to start over with a new space, I;ll definitely try to keep y'all in the loop. One thing I do know, is that I HAVE to have a HT space and setup wherever I'm at, that's all there is to it  Gotta have you guys, the BEQ thread and AVS in general too LOL


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## harrisu

@SBuger,


> I set pretty close to a 16:9 120" AT screen, so it feels huge and very immersive. Eyes to screen are about 7' exactly in recline mode.


Is that 120" wide or 120" diagonal in 16:9 ratio?


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## SBuger

harrisu said:


> @SBuger,
> 
> Is that 120" wide or 120" diagonal in 16:9 ratio?


It's a 120" diagonal 16:9 ratio. Sometimes I wish I had a wider scope screen since that is what most movies are these days, but sitting this close still seems pretty wide with those scope movies. But the full screen 16:9 stuff, what there is of it movie wise, its just crazy and seems way bigger with the extra vertical like I was saying in one of my posts above or previous page. Stuff like Tron (like we were talking about in the subwoofer comparisons thread today), when its in full aspect mode on some scenes (like the light cycle battle) is just nuts and seems so HUGE. 

I meant to ask you in that thread but didn't get it done, what projector do you use?


----------



## harrisu

SBuger said:


> It's a 120" diagonal 16:9 ratio. Sometimes I wish I had a wider scope screen since that is what most movies are these days, but sitting this close still seems pretty wide with those scope movies. But the full screen 16:9 stuff, what there is of it movie wise, its just crazy and seems way bigger with the extra vertical like I was saying in one of my posts above or previous page. Stuff like Tron (like we were talking about in the subwoofer comparisons thread today), when its in full aspect mode on some scenes (like the light cycle battle) is just nuts and seems so HUGE.
> 
> I meant to ask you in that thread but didn't get it done, what projector do you use?


Yeah I'm also looking for that HUGE factor but as always there are pros and cons. There is something about 16:9 ratio. It just looks bigger in general. 2:40 is wider but I think to get that immersive experience, it has to be much bigger or sit much closer. In your case with 16:9, with 2.40 aspect you are getting 43" height and 104" width. Its a lot smaller on 16:9. As you know most of the movies are in 2:35 format, therefore, even though 16:9 makes screen look BIG, I still decided to go with 2.35 since I don't watch TV or play games in my HT. It's used only for Movies + Music. 

I use JVC RS500 projector calibrated by Chad-B (awesome dude). I also use Severtson 1.3 gain perf screen. Room is 23Lx12Wx8H. Screen is mounted 5' from front wall and MLP is 56" from back wall. In b/w MLP and screen, ceiling/side walls/floor are covered with Black Velvet just like yours. Distance b/w MLP and screen is 10.2'. The big mistake I made last year was to buy 2 OLED TV. Nothing comes close to the black levels of OLED and it makes everything pop. I haven't even gotten in calibrated. I just adjusted the Brightness/Contrast and even with only 50 Light (out of 100), it makes everything pop. Wish I could get that kind of image on my screen. Severtson with 1.3 gain gets me close. JVC has very nice black level and along with more screen gain, it works out very well in medium/dark scenes. In very bright scenes thought, I could see some screen impact. We are talking about 3-4% of times here so I can safely ignore it . I used to have Sony VPL VW500ES which was their first 4K project years ago and after I saw what JVC had to offer in one of AVS member's house, I sold it and bought JVC. I have no complains about this projector. Love it. The only complain though is if it can get brighter. Currently I have 2200 hours on the lamp and the recommended time is 2000 to switch. So its time to switch the lamp. But, if I put it in high lamp, everything pops which I do like very much but then it makes more fan sound as well . Ah the pros and cons.



Spoiler



Room Treatment
I also have 3 2x4 acoustic panels on each side b/w MLP and screen and 4 on ceiling but I'm only using 2 panels on each side with 703 2" and 1 on ceiling with 702 4". If I fill them all with 703, it gets too absorptive. I used to have all the walls behind the screen completely covered with Linacoustic but realized that it was makig my room too absorptive. So now, I have 3 2x4 703 2" panels right behind each speaker (L/C/R) coverting from MLP height all the way up to ceiling. I also have 2 703 2" on back wall and 2 on side wall behind the MLP. I don't have any diffuser like you do. My current acoustic room treatment is based on slowly implementing 1-2 panels each time and hearing for a while to see how it sounds.


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## Nalleh

Hi there Bug, how’s it hanging?

I heard something about a awsome new BOSS thing-a-ma-jig you were thinkering with, but no info about such things i here, man !?

Time for a update in your thread too, me thinks


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## SBuger

^^^ Yo my bro Nalleh!!! 

Yeah I should really update more frequently like you do to keep things interesting, but seems I'm just as content posting about things in your thread huh   LOL

Well, I was gonna post pics and some impressions and all that about that BOSS thing LOL, but thought I would wait just a bit longer, as I've now got the BOSS moved out of room and BKs + MAs + VNFs set up again on one seat, so I can compare. I'm VERY curious now!! 

I haven't actually ran any scenes yet, but did run a quick VS with BK LFEs only on White Noise 0-50hz and damn near pegged the Z-axis LIMIT, and there was still some left in tank  I've found in the past that this is kind of hard to do on the white noise file itself. Actual movie Time Stamps not as hard to do. I think I kind of forgot just how insanely powerful the BK LFEs can be, especially in pairs. Will be interesting to see what I think of them since I've spent the last week or so messing with the BOSS. I truly love a lot of things about the BOSS, but I have a feeling the BK LFE's may be more brutal (which I love as well). This may come at the expense of not feeling quite as natural though, IDK. That's one of the things I most definitely love about the BOSS, is it just feels so natural and still brings it pretty darn good. But maybe not quite as hard as the BKs. Pros and Cons and with everything I think. We'll see. 

Unfortunately it might be Monday before I can do much comparing, but very much looking forward to it!!! I'll go with whatever one causes the biggest sh** eating grin from the ultimate TR I guess  LMAO


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## Nalleh

Wow, you already switched around again! Yeah that will be interesting to hear about for sure as i agree, the the BK’s are unparalleled when it comes to raw power. And now with the new iso’s i am very interested in hearing how you like it

I still have to switch to full iso to get a proper test of the BOSS, i’ll see if i can make some "iso inserts» to switch out a layer of MA’s so i can make that test, but i have a work weekend, so like you it might next week before that happens.

Exciting times .......


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Hi there Bug, how’s it hanging?
> 
> I heard something about a awsome new BOSS thing-a-ma-jig you were thinkering with, but no info about such things i here, man !?
> 
> Time for a update in your thread too, me thinks


*Teaser Update*, just for you @Nalleh and who ever else may be interested  .....New BOSS for TR

So I built this thing last week and been messing with it, I love the thing so far!!! The first one was great but redid part of it today to change a few things.

First build finished pic ...










But needed to move the drivers just a bit so I could fit my Crowson MAs in a little better. Plus I wanted the BK LFEs in a different location. This is just mock up here, but the BKs will actually be bolted underneath the BOSS riser about where they are sitting now. 

If this doesn't give me all the TR I could ever dream of when combined (or at least choices), I don't know what will!! hahahahaha   

I'll try to post the full build and impressions etc in the near future.


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## Nalleh

^^ Thanks man, i love it  Now THAT is what TR is all about, LOL.

So the BOSS had a little break, but is now going in again ?

You’re crazy, man


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## EndersShadow

Isn’t the BOSS concept that you invert the sub so it’s shooting into the floor, with very little clearance, ona flimsy piece of plywood, and it’s open baffle?

What you have just looks like a standard large sealed box, upfiring, with buttkickers and crowsons on top.

BY NO MEANS is that meant as a knock, I VASTLY prefer this approach over the IB option. I feel you can better simulate what you can give it powerwise and what you can boost. You also can likely give it MORE of both, IMHO better using the driver....

And I just can’t get my head around how it works the other way, and I just fear for stuff poking into the drivers (I have kids, dogs, and a cat, and they find ways to get things stuck in places I never dreamed of), the
drivers getting too hot and letting major smoke off into couches (god forbid getting hot enough to start some cushions smoldering)...... 

But that’s me. If they are happy I’m not one to ruin their fun. Let em have at it. I just will comment I like yours better .

**edit** and given your box size... you could almost port the thing into the bottom of the seats and likely tune STUPID low......


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EndersShadow

Ignore me. Tapatalk was being dumb...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Thanks man, i love it  Now THAT is what TR is all about, LOL.
> 
> So the BOSS had a little break, but is now going in again ?
> 
> You’re crazy, man


LOL, yep I had to know what the BKs and MAs setup the previous way would feel like in comparison. Before I move it back in though, I needed to make a few tweaks to the BOSS platform with driver placement and think I've found a way better place to mount the BKs as well. Hell, I've got all that space under there with the riser, might as well use it and put them more where I want them. If mounted on top, they run into the seating hardware almost everywhere and severely limits placement. They'll be mounted upside down, but should work fine I would think. Will find out hopefully pretty soon. Tomorrow of Monday. 

Hahahaha, hey I think you're about on the same level of crazy as me!!


----------



## SBuger

EndersShadow said:


> Isn’t the BOSS concept that you invert the sub so it’s shooting into the floor, with very little clearance, ona flimsy piece of plywood, and it’s open baffle?
> 
> What you have just looks like a standard large sealed box, upfiring, with buttkickers and crowsons on top.
> 
> BY NO MEANS is that meant as a knock, I VASTLY prefer this approach over the IB option. I feel you can better simulate what you can give it powerwise and what you can boost. You also can likely give it MORE of both, IMHO better using the driver....
> 
> And I just can’t get my head around how it works the other way, and I just fear for stuff poking into the drivers (I have kids, dogs, and a cat, and they find ways to get things stuck in places I never dreamed of), the
> drivers getting too hot and letting major smoke off into couches (god forbid getting hot enough to start some cushions smoldering)......
> 
> But that’s me. If they are happy I’m not one to ruin their fun. Let em have at it. I just will comment I like yours better .
> 
> **edit** and given your box size... you could almost port the thing into the bottom of the seats and likely tune STUPID low......
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Well, there are two main versions of the BOSS (although some folks are trying different mountings now, Archaea being one of them). Supposedly they both feel about the same. 

The mini BOSS is with drivers pointing down and the Full Riser BOSS is with drivers facing up. I chose the Full Riser for now, for different reasons. 

So, the main point of the BOSS is to produce TR and not SPL. Although, it does produce some SPL, and more so on the Full Riser BOSS from what I've read, especially if ran full range up to crossover. I cross mine low with LPF at about 25hz, so I don't get much SPL out of it, but does effect my FR a tiny bit around 30hz. Also, I do feel a little bit of pressure from it down real low at spirited levels I think. Which would suggest some SPL I guess. But it's pretty much ALL TR. 

I did run it directly on the floor for a little while and wasn't too bad, but limited TR, especially at certain frequencies and didn't give as much ULF wobble power. It's advised to use Isolators to lift it up off the ground a little bit so it is floating all the way around (full iso). This definitely gives better TR. And yeah, kinda ported to I guess with a 1/2" or so gap.

For the money, it's insane the amount of TR this things brings. Real natural feeling too. A little more so than Crowson MAs and BKs I think. At least the way I had them setup before with my seating.


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> LOL, yep I had to know what the BKs and MAs setup the previous way would feel like in comparison. Before I move it back in though, I needed to make a few tweaks to the BOSS platform with driver placement and think I've found a way better place to mount the BKs as well. Hell, I've got all that space under there with the riser, might as well use it and put them more where I want them. If mounted on top, they run into the seating hardware almost everywhere and severely limits placement. They'll be mounted upside down, but should work fine I would think. Will find out hopefully pretty soon. Tomorrow of Monday.
> 
> Hahahaha, hey I think you're about on the same level of crazy as me!!


Yeah sure, you should have room for 600 BK’s under that monstrosity of a plattform, LOL. And mounting them upside down is no problem either. Stealthy 


About the LPF of the BOSS, yeah i use 40hz so far, i know a bit higher than you guys, but i like the power it (and BK’s too) bring up in that area, BUT higher than that gets really wierd, really fast.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Yeah sure, you should have room for 600 BK’s under that monstrosity of a plattform, LOL. And mounting them upside down is no problem either. Stealthy
> 
> 
> About the LPF of the BOSS, yeah i use 40hz so far, i know a bit higher than you guys, but i like the power it (and BK’s too) bring up in that area, BUT higher than that gets really wierd, really fast.


Hey now, how dare you call my big beautiful work or art a 'monstrosity'!!!     hahahahahahaha

Just kidding, that thing is a bit unsightly huh  LOL Yeah its definitely big and the low riser version would have been more stealthy, and kept me closer to the ground. But yeah, one cool thing is that it will accommodate the BKs well (maybe even 600 BKs in there if I wanted them LOL). One thing I noticed though about being higher, is that when I switched back to being closer to the ground the other day like normal, is that my Atmos seems quite a bit more immersive being up higher. That may change if I run an actual cal with being higher, but is cool for now. Also, it surprised me, it feels like I'm more in the movie video wise, vs being lower too. I think harrisu mentioned that too somewhere over in the BOSS thread a while back, even though he's only up about 3.5" or so and not 6-7".

So being up higher might not end up being such a bad thing after all in ways  I was kind of surprised and happy to see and hear this with the Atmos and might be part of the reason I wanted it back in besides just the TR lol


----------



## Nalleh

I didn’t mean it was ugly, i just meant it was big,  It is actually very clean and well built, by the looks of it  I would probably copy it IF i would build a riser


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Thanks man. I was just messin with ya though and had to give you some crap  

Cool that you didn't have to build a riser, and got two JBLs under each seat the way you did!! Talk about stealthy, I'm still amazed by the way you did that!!


----------



## ereed

That is just nuts! I'd like to test it out but then again I'm scared!!! LOL It looks great!

Any pics how you built the riser? Any stuffing inside or anything?


----------



## SBuger

ereed said:


> That is just nuts! I'd like to test it out but then again I'm scared!!! LOL It looks great!
> 
> Any pics how you built the riser? Any stuffing inside or anything?


Thanks man!!

Well basically there are two versions you can build. The Full Riser (like I did), or the low rise version like most do that doesn't lift the seat as much. It's harder to fit the driver magnets up under the seating with the low rise version since they are inverted and facing down. But your couch doesn't have all that hardware underneath to get in the way, so the low rise version would be the best I would think if you decide to try it out. 

Yeah I've got some build pics of mine and will try to get them all posted here pretty soon. But Sekosche has a real good build thread of his low rise version HERE that may be of interest to you. Also, there are pics ans stuff scattered thoughut Tim's BOSS thread HERE ,although that thread is starting to get pretty long. Post 1, 10, and 29 of his thread has all the info you need about the BOSS build though.

Nope, no stuffing inside my riser. Its just mainly for TR only, although it can produce some sound, but I hardly notice itl (if at all most of the time) since I cross (LPF) the BOSS low at about 25hz with a somewhat shallow slope, allowing it to roll off from there.


----------



## Nalleh

So you tried the 3x18" BOSS and didn’t like it ?!?

Very strange.....but i guess good for your VNF’s then, LOL.

Seems it is not a straight road to getting awsome TR, LOL.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ @Nalleh – Yep, got to build and try my 3 18’s in the BOSS the other day. It’s not that I didn’t like it, I really did, it’s just that I still seemed to love and prefer the feel of my ‘sub riser’ BOSS more, with 3 or 6 drivers. I really do seem to just LOVE the feel of this thing!! Floated with isos or setting on the ground with no isos , making it pretty much a sealed sub riser. Seems to work fantastic just setting on the carpet and pad (which smashes down pretty good) on my suspended floor. Like I was saying in the BOSS thread the other day, I'm still just flat out amazed at just how much intensity and amazing feeling TR this thing can dish out with it setting on the floor with NO isos  

I really like the feel of it floated too, but with the JBL 12’s, I just can’t seem to get enough ULF TR under about 15hz without the drivers bottoming out a little too easy sometimes (3 or 6 drivers). Also, having to LS the low end doesn’t help with this. BUT, with it setting on the ground, basically sealing it, I get loads of ULF TR and don’t have to LS at all. Freaking crazy I tell you LOL. And it feels fantastic too, which is just as important, if not more so. Actually, I can’t get over just how much I like it. For some reason it just really seems to work well with my seating and suspended floor. 

Every time I move this BOSS sub riser out with the JBLs loaded in it and try my old way or even the 18’s in the cantilevered position like I just did, I always go right back to wanting to move the riser with JBL’s back in LOL. Crazy, but I just gotta go with what feels best to me, even if I think that one should be better than the other. The BOSS sub riser with the JBL 12’s in it setting on the ground just feels so right to me. It seems to have TONS of awesome feeling TR power all the way down into ultra-deep, which just amazes the crap out of me with having NO isolators. 

That said, I may like the 18’s in a full-size BOSS riser better, floated or more like a sub riser like I’m running now. But as we both now, that just sets us up way to high. So that’s a no go. And that’s why I was so excited to try it behind me in the cantilevered position like you did since you got such fantastic results and liked it so much. I really liked it too, but ultimately just liked the feel of the sub riser BOSS better with the 12’s in my room and particular seating. Got to go with it, even though the 3 18s had a ton of power. It could easily hit the LIMIT on Z axis with white noise 0-50hz, which isn’t always easy to do and seemed to have tons of power under 20hz, which is what I was hoping for. BUT, the BOSS sub riser loaded with JBL 12’s setting on the suspended floor over carpet and pad with no isos can too so ….

IDK man, it could have just been the way I constructed the platform/sled or something with the 18’s behind me, but I just feel it quite a bit more in my entire body with the 6 (or even just 3) 12’s in the riser under me, floated or with it setting on the ground, but setting on the ground gives me way more free ULF TR somehow and doesn’t bottom. The TR just seems to engulf me more and seems/feels so freaking real. 

Either way though, in whatever config with 12’s or the 18’s, I do just seem to love the feel of the BOSS and is some of the best feeling TR I’ve ever felt, which is just so cool and makes me super happy ATM  Combing MAs, BKs and VNF subs can make it even better as you know as well with your setup. We really do have a lot of options for great TR like you were just saying in your thread. Good times to be a TR lover!! 

Stay tuned ...fixing to try to post a big update with ta lot of pics and stuff


----------



## SBuger

*UPDATE TIME: …. BOSS, BOSS and more BOSS*

GOT TR??? Hehehehehe  I love me some TR, and with the new BOSS in town, I HAD to try it!!! Here are my BOSS builds I’ve tried recently with some pics along the way etc. I’ve really enjoyed it all, as I do love experimenting and trying new stuff, especially when it comes to TR, but I’ve done so much of it over the last month or so that my head is kind of spinning from it all. My back is kinda of hurting and yelling at me too since I’ve done so much of it. Building lots of different versions of the BOSS (4-5 different risers I think) and getting them all up into and back out of my little HT room upstairs is a lot of work. That and I’m always so overly excited about it that I usually end up working fast and furious on it all and wears me out pretty good. It’s kind of taken a toll on my body (mainly my back), so I’m glad it’s just about over …phew LOL. But lots a good has come of it and has been worth it for sure!!

I’ll start with the first version Full Riser BOSS with the 3 12’s (one per seat).

Seats setting on a piece of plywood to see where the 12” JBL drivers need to go



























Finished and painted with BK LFEs setting in place (not bolted on yet)









Another couple pics with MAs on board and BK LFEs bolted on


















^^^Actually those last two pics above are version 1.1 with the drivers moved over a little bit so the Crowson MAs would fit better and the BK LFE’s could go underneath the platform instead of on top, but that’s ok, thought id through those two pics in as well.

And back to the 1.0 version set in place in the HT room with the VNF subs behind









A pic from behind the seats showing the Crowson MAs, BK LFEs (cant see the BKs though, JBL BOSS drivers as well as VNF subs









Some pics of how I used the isolators (HiFI Hudsons) 28 in total here IIRC

Back Corner with isos on the bottom and top









Shot from front corner of platform









Pic from the front









So, for Version 2, I also I ended up cutting version 1.1 into 3 different sections (one per seat) for testing as well for the 2nd version, but don’t think I took any pics of that.

Then here is a couple pics of the Version 3, when I added 3 more JBL 12’s for a total of 6 (two per seat). Oooooh yeah more has got to be better right!!!!????

Just a plain ol’ piece of ¾” plywood with driver holes marked where they need to go









Yeah buddy …jig saw works great!! 









A bit of black paint since it’s going into a blacked out room 


















Underside









And BAM ….set up in room (BK LFEs are underneath) ready for seating









Then the 4th version with the 3 18’s. I pulled my DS4-18s from my 4cuft sealed cabs that I used from VNF duty that sit right behind my 3 seats. I should have just done one driver and tested it like @Nalleh encouraged me to do instead of yanking the drivers on all of them. I almost did just that. BUT at the last minute, I thought what the hell, I’m just gonna go all out and run all 3, since that is how I would probably want it anyway if I liked it what they brought. So, I didn’t want to mess around and just got’r done LOL. Plus, I had just enough lumber to get it done without having to chop it up to make just one single platform. 

Here is one of the SI DS4-18 that I pulled from one of my cabs to put in the BOSS









And fitting the drivers to makes sure the holes clear good for the rubber cones









The platform with the 3 18’s in place on the BOSS sled. I set it up real similar to @Nalleh’s BOSS test sled, just bigger to accommodate 3 seats. There is dedicated spots for MAs and BK testing too, but forgot to take pics of that









Another angle (sorry these are a bit dark and my flash wasn’t working on my phone for whatever reason









Side View









Edge to show driver clearance to the floor (was about 3”) (I took the shot before I screwed it down









And a shot just to show the size difference between the DS4-18’s and the JBL 12”









^^^ Those 18’s are freaking HUGE compared to the JBL 12’s. The pics don’t even begin to do them justice LOL. Big and heavy and they gave a crap ton of excursion. But as cool as they looked, measured, and felt, I ended up bringing the 3 rd version back with the full BOSS riser with 6 12’s to sit on the ground with no isos. 

So, after all the testing of the different versions, I’m back to this and with the platform just sitting on the carpet and pad with no isos, top or bottom.









At the moment I’m really loving just the BOSS w/ 6 JBLs + Crowson MAs. I don’t even have my BK LFE hooked back up yet (don’t know if I’ll even hook’m them back up or not at this point. Also, my 3 VNFs are not put back together yet either, still waiting on some new gasket tape for the drivers and need to let my back rest up a little bit anyway first. But when I get that done, I think I’ll built some sort of riser for them as well to lift them up more, as with them setting lower now they lost a lot of their super near field effect that I can feel on my body. I need to get them back up to where they were, and maybe even angled this time around. I also want to try my old MBM 1200d right behind my upper back positioned perfectly like I use to do in my previous setup. That thing used to be able to do quite a number on my chest, and I loved it. Violent chest punch and chest cavity pressure, but oh so good LOL. Will see if I can get a bit of that back to go with some of this new found TR.

I also need to run a whole new system re-cal once I get all that into place with all the new additions and setting up higher now. Speaking of setting up higher. I’m about 7” up off the ground now with the MAs on top of the platform. I wouldn’t want to be any higher, but by golly, I’m actually really loving this extra height, which surprised me. It puts my eyes up around 1/3rd of the screen I think (in scope mode) and just seems a lot more immersive. Crazy, I didn’t think it could get any more immersive that what I had going by setting so close to a 120”, but it does and I’m loving it. Even the wife commented on it and said the same thing (she rarely notices or cares about this kind of stuff like I do). So that was cool.

In fact, when I took out the BOSS riser to try and compare to my old way (pre-BOSS), I really missed the height and immersion and couldn’t wait to get it back hahahaha!! Also, as an added bonus, it seems to make my ATMOS more immersive and better too. Ha, go figure LOL. That was one of the things I was kind of worried about on the extra height from the riser, it that it would affect ATMOS in a negative way, but seems to have had the opposite effect, so YAY, I’ll take it!!!!!! 

I’ll try to do another update when I get my VNFs back in order with the new position and also new cal with some FR, more pics and whatnot.

Until then, here are a couple of VibSensor readings that Ill wrap things up with. 

Here is one with three 18s BOSS version on White Noise 0-50hz. -10mv with sub trims bumped 10db for ref bass levels. 4lbs rice bag for weight on the phone, No DEQ and reclined. No LPF and no LS to lift the low end. Not too shabby at all for BOSS only and busted the LIMIT pretty easy on the Z axis. Tons of low end TR!!










And last but not least, a few VS’s from what I’ve settled on with the BOSS riser with 6 JBLs setting on the floor with NO isolators. MAs on top of platform. Same settings as up above on the 3x18’s BOSS reading. -10mv, sub trim ran 10db hot to bring it to reference level bass and no DEQ to lift the low end up. The BOSS has LPF set at 35hz with a BW 12db/oct slope and the Crowson MAs have a LPF set at 25hz with the same 12bd/oct slope.

White Noise 0-50hz: (left) is BOSS only and (right) is BOSS + MAs










^^^ ULF TR is pretty insane and reads like a rising HC on White Noise 0-50hz. Singles are strong too, but VibSensor usually just doesn’t read well below about 10hz on white noise (a known issue)

And then check this out ….EOT intro, which is about as brutal of material as you can get for VSing and putting your gear through the ringer (hopefully not killing any of it). BUT, the BOSS sitting on the floor seemed to just rip right through it with ease, and even had more in the tank than this, but didn’t really want to push it too much more. The last 2 tones of the EOT intro are about 10db hotter than most ref material and hits up around -5db signal levels on the last 2-3 notes/sines of 20hz, 15hz, then 10hz, and is one of the reasons EOT is considered dangerous. But it is definitely a great one to show your TR power in these 5 distinct frequencies, reading from right to left ….30hz, 25hz, 20hz, 15hz, and lastly that insane 10hz blast. IMO the BOSS (by itself) and with MAs too just crushed it, touching 1e+01. That is some pretty hardcore TR right there by any TR junkies’ standards I think and was cool to see. But what is also cool to see, is that is follows the source (PVA – the actual frequency graph of that particular EOT time stamp). Very cool!!!!

EOT intro: (left) is BOSS only and (right) is BOSS + MAs









The BOSS is pretty darn amazing in my book and is giving me some of the best feeling TR I’ve felt. Intensity can just feel off the charts but still VERY realistic, which is so important too. So if you guys haven’t checked out the BOSS yet and like/love TR, I highly recommend it and combines well with other TR components if your fond of them, like me and @Nalleh like to do. For what it costs to get one of these BOSS’s up and running, I don’t think it can be beat for money!!! If your intersted inchecking out a BOSS for yourself, be sure to check out @trhought (Tim's) BOSS and HT thread HERE

Yes, BK LFE’s, Crowson MAs, VNF subs etc are great too and contribute in their own great way. But damn, this BOSS is good …. combined can be even better if you’re into that :grin:


----------



## Nalleh

WOWSER, what a awsome update  Nice that you put up some pics in your own thread and not just in other peoples thread, LOL.

Holy moly what a journey you have had since the BOSS phenomenon surfaced ! That is some hours of work in those pics man 

It seem fitting that first your glowing reviews of BOSS made me jump onboard, was not convinced, but then my glowing review of the cantilever 18" version made you jump on it, LOL. Ahh, fun times.

So strange that you did not find the triple 18" better! I did not like the "normal" under the seat BOSS, but was totally converted by the cantilever one, LOL.

Your "TR sled" looks massive !! Holy crap that was one solid plattform man  If it didn’t work for you in cantilever, i was not because of a flimsy plattform, that’s for sure 

Ahh well, at least now you have tried it, i am sorry if i contributed to the extra work and back ache, but sometimes we just have to try out things, LOL.

It defenitely seems like you have found your golden ticket to awsome TR, those EOT graphs are INSANE!! Never seem so high levels, LOL. So i understand that you are happy with it.

I understand what you mean about liking the feeling the BOSS give you. In my case the cantilever does that. Been without the SI18 cantilever BOSS a few days while i tried out a couple other things, and when i got the JBL/PR BOSS back last night it was like: AHA, there was that awsome feeling again! The 12" PR cantilever version behaves extremly similar to the SI18" version, it is like they are cousins, LOL. The weight, effortlessness, wooble, fullness, heft, it all came back last night, it’s awsome 

Different road to the same goal, i guess


----------



## Sekosche

Your VS numbers are ridiculous with the 6 JBL build! Did you say that your current setup was without soft isos below the BOSS? 

I told my 18 year old nephew yesterday when he was over that lots of people have that many subs built into their couch. They’re a sound bar family, so my setup is totally alien to him. 

I wonder why when I had my 3 JBL BOSS the 10Hz was lacking in VS and the Crowsons added a lot more below 15Hz, but now with BOSS 2.0 the six drivers really seem to be rocking hard and the MA’s add a bit less. Could be the partial cantilever effect I have going on I guess or just the added headroom.

I’m doing a few seating experiments tomorrow, but I also like the added height and cushion of my current BOSS setup with the second riser for MA’s; going to see how I like the hard isos back under the seating tomorrow. When I took everything off for a couple days prior to installing BOSS 2.0, it felt like we were sitting on the ground with no soft iso suspension to cushion movement and 4” lower, my once comfy couch felt like a concrete slab, lol. I do worry the harder couch feet might walk around a little easier on the BOSS platform whereas the silicone ones grip very well but maybe not.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> WOWSER, what a awsome update  Nice that you put up some pics in your own thread and not just in other peoples thread, LOL.
> 
> Holy moly what a journey you have had since the BOSS phenomenon surfaced ! That is some hours of work in those pics man
> 
> It seem fitting that first your glowing reviews of BOSS made me jump onboard, was not convinced, but then my glowing review of the cantilever 18" version made you jump on it, LOL. Ahh, fun times.
> 
> So strange that you did not find the triple 18" better! I did not like the "normal" under the seat BOSS, but was totally converted by the cantilever one, LOL.
> 
> Your "TR sled" looks massive !! Holy crap that was one solid plattform man  If it didn’t work for you in cantilever, i was not because of a flimsy plattform, that’s for sure
> 
> Ahh well, at least now you have tried it, i am sorry if i contributed to the extra work and back ache, but sometimes we just have to try out things, LOL.
> 
> It defenitely seems like you have found your golden ticket to awsome TR, those EOT graphs are INSANE!! Never seem so high levels, LOL. So i understand that you are happy with it.
> 
> I understand what you mean about liking the feeling the BOSS give you. In my case the cantilever does that. Been without the SI18 cantilever BOSS a few days while i tried out a couple other things, and when i got the JBL/PR BOSS back last night it was like: AHA, there was that awsome feeling again! The 12" PR cantilever version behaves extremly similar to the SI18" version, it is like they are cousins, LOL. The weight, effortlessness, wooble, fullness, heft, it all came back last night, it’s awsome
> 
> Different road to the same goal, i guess


Thanks man!! 

Oh yeah, fun times for sure!! A lot of work yes, but fun too and worth it to explore, which is necessary if you want to find and get the best experience possible from our setups. Especially with so many variables we all have to worth with (and around sometimes) and preferences. 

We do seem to like real similar TR (and gear) though, you and I, and is pretty obvious from our many convos we’ve had about it here on AVS (and PM) over the last couple of years. Yes, I agree it’s strange that I didn’t prefer the 18’s cantilever BOSS to my 6 JBLs setting on the floor. Hell, setting it on the floor with no isos is strange!! But I just can’t deny how great it feels and VS measures pretty killer too, to go along with it. So, whatever the reason I guess, I’ll take it. Maybe it’s not that strange though, as Scott Simonian’s sub riser (with his 2 18’s and no isos) reads real similar on VibSensor to mine on EOT. 

So back to variables, differences in seating being just one of them, you do seem to prefer more TR over 30hz than I do (at least on your readings), BUT I’d wager money our TR (in this area (ULF as well)) feels WAY more similar than not if we were to experience the same demo material at around the same levels if we were to set in each other’s MLP seat with our setups (ya know if we weren’t half way around the world from each other LOL). 

About the massive ‘TR sled’ …LOL yeah I probably went a bit overboard on building it. I have a tendency to go overboard with things sometimes hahahaha. Maybe the damn thing was tooooo rigid LMAO!!! Tim probably wouldn’t think so though LOL

But yes, I HAD to try my 18’s, or I couldn’t sleep at night. It does seem that I have found what works for me with the variables that I have to work with, so that cool!! So yep, I think you nailed it in saying “Different road to the same goal” 

I could continue to experiment more with BOSS (and may at some point as I’ve got a few more ideas I’d like to try), but for now I seem to be super satisfied with it and ready to start enjoying a lot of content. I need to get my VNF thing worked back out, but after that, I really should be set. Looking forward to it  

Awesome on your 12” PR cantilever VNF!!! I bet it feels killer in your setup!! You da man on all this testing and finding numerous great configs with such cool ideas and ways to implement them. You definitely have a way of continuing to push the boundaries with TR (Atmos too!!). As usual, very inspiring to say the least my friend!!


----------



## SBuger

Sekosche said:


> Your VS numbers are ridiculous with the 6 JBL build! Did you say that your current setup was without soft isos below the BOSS?
> 
> I told my 18 year old nephew yesterday when he was over that lots of people have that many subs built into their couch. They’re a sound bar family, so my setup is totally alien to him.
> 
> I wonder why when I had my 3 JBL BOSS the 10Hz was lacking in VS and the Crowsons added a lot more below 15Hz, but now with BOSS 2.0 the six drivers really seem to be rocking hard and the MA’s add a bit less. Could be the partial cantilever effect I have going on I guess or just the added headroom.
> 
> I’m doing a few seating experiments tomorrow, but I also like the added height and cushion of my current BOSS setup with the second riser for MA’s; going to see how I like the hard isos back under the seating tomorrow. When I took everything off for a couple days prior to installing BOSS 2.0, it felt like we were sitting on the ground with no soft iso suspension to cushion movement and 4” lower, my once comfy couch felt like a concrete slab, lol. I do worry the harder couch feet might walk around a little easier on the BOSS platform whereas the silicone ones grip very well but maybe not.


Thanks man! Yeah, no isos below the BOSS. It seems ridiculous I know, but somehow seems to bring it hard, and down deep. I would have never thought it possible. But, Like I was saying to Nalleh up above, Scott’s ‘sub riser’ (an actual ‘true/real’ sub riser) reads almost identical on VS for OET intro, so maybe its not that strange.

LOL on you and your nephew, ….yeah lots of peeps have subs built into their couch, its totally normal hahahaha. 

It defiantly seems to be catching on fast around here LOL and for darn good reason too huh!! Who’d have thought that some little 12’s in the seating could be so great set up like this. I guess a dude named ‘Tim’ that loves TR too right!!! hahahaha

About the 10hz lacking with 3 JBLS, more JBLs does seem to really help this area. The 18’s definitely had no trouble in this area, as the bigger and heavier drivers with more excursion (and lower Fs) really helps I’m sure, but the 12”s seems to be able to do it too, it’s just harder for them to get it done and need LS and or LPFs that create a rising curve (this plus higher gains levels on the amp to then pick the whole TR curve up) , at least when fully isolated in an open baffle type setting like BOSS. Setting on the floor (mainly sealing it) seems to be a different story though. Crazy!!


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Oh Yeah, i agree it is more like Scott’s sub riser, which reminds me: are you still running the JBL’s out of phase?

Because the reason to do that in the first place was with the iso’s below, the movement of the JBL’s got inverted trough the plattform, and needed inverted phase for the movement to be in sync with the farfields.

Now that you basically have a subwoofer box on the floor, the need for inverted phase should be gone?

And if you still run them out of phase, as they are now a sealed’ish box contributing to SPL, how does the FR look now?

Oh, and the reason my graphs look more linear, is when i tweak i turn of all EQ and LPF’s and such, just a flat signal.

But i may like more of the visceral between 15-30 hz, which is what the BK’s are so awsome at, but not to the extent of running a flat graph curve, i like a house curve on my TR too, LOL.

As Aron said earlier, you can never have too much single digit TR 

BTW: earlier you experimented with seperate plattforms for each seat, what was your conclusion on seperate pr seat or one big joint one?

I am considering going to seperate pr seat, because the jiggle in MY seat from the occupant in the other seat moving about is really bugging me.


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## SBuger

^^^ @Nalleh -Good questions. Nope, I’m still running it out of phase and seems to be best for combining with the MAs and VNFs. Also seems to sum constructively SPL wise with all the other subs last time I checked as well. I’ll check it all again here in the near future and post some FR measurements when I get to that point for final recal.

Oh ok, gotcha on the no LPFs and EQ when tuning on your graphs.

Interesting you say you may like more of the 15-30hz though. Maybe you do IDK LOL. I do seem to just LOVE this area though, and have for years now!!! But my graphs do read higher on WN in the 10-15hz area than compared to my 15hz and above these days, maybe giving this impression. I got hooked on that 12-15hz to 27hz or so area big time in my previous system down stairs and is the reason I was such a HUGE fan of the BK LFE’s, as NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING could touch them in this area for the feel it could create. 

I still LOVE this area but feels a little different now than when I was on my old couch. It’s still great in its own way but has a sharper feel now. I just love it dearly and is probably my favorite TR feel of all, even more so than ULF wobble I think, and I LOVE ULF TR wobble too LOL. That sharpness feel gives me the impression of MEGA power that makes me think it could possibly rip me in half sometimes hehehehehe. I know that too sounds ridiculous, but one of the only ways I know how to describe it. These days, if I can’t get that certain feel Im talking about, the experience is just not the same to me and not exciting. I think that’s one of the reasons I’m so darn fond of that ‘Venom’ street chase scene, is that it is just loaded with this type of feel, one hit after another, again and again and again, AND with some great ULF mixed in as well. Just exhilarating as hell for me. I can watch that scene over and over again (at almost whatever MV level) for that reason alone LOL

But yeah, ULF and the singles are just so cool too and just not the same without them in there. The whole package will always be king I guess for the best and most mind-blowing experience possible LOL

I watched that scene today (and a few from IT too), since I love them so much a real familiar with them for comparing new stuff and tweaking and didn’t even really miss my VNFs being in the mix at all (they are still not put back together yet). I know I need them for at least more chest punch though. It’s hard to get that mega chest punch and certain chest rip feel too without a super close driver, at least it is for me. That will have to be another day and tweak session though after I get them put back together, re positioned and calibrated LOL

Also, I found that I prefer NO isos on top today as well for best feel. And like you found, yes it does read stronger on the VS measurements too, which is cool. It felt to soft/under-damped with the isos on top today on my one large platform with all 6 drivers in it. I mostly preferred isos on top when I had it broke down into 3 different sections (and with only one driver per seat, not two). 

I guess that leads me to your next question lol. It can be really good with separates or as one big platform. But adjustments will probably have to be made to get it to feel the same (or at least the intensity to feel similar between the two). You’ll probably have to dial it up more for a single section to match one big joint section. At least that’s how it worked on mine. No biggy though, we seem to have so much TR power on tap that it’s not really a big deal IMO.

I think you’ll be fine if you decide to do that. I hear you, the other person wiggling/squirming or even just shifting their weight in the other seat from time to time can be annoying huh. I always notice it and want to say “hey stop that darn it, your messing with my TR” LOL


----------



## tvuong

SBuger said:


> *UPDATE TIME: …. BOSS, BOSS and more BOSS*
> GOT TR??? Hehehehehe
> 
> EOT intro: (left) is BOSS only and (right) is BOSS + MAs


Just found and read your build thread. Pretty cool with all the progresses you have been making. 
It does not look like the MA add much TR on the VibSensor graph compared to the BOSS alone


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## Daniel Chaves

SBuger said:


> So, after all the testing of the different versions, I’m back to this and with the platform just sitting on the carpet and pad with no isos, top or bottom.


If I may ask, roughly how much $ do you think you have into this setup?


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## SBuger

tvuong said:


> Just found and read your build thread. Pretty cool with all the progresses you have been making.
> It does not look like the MA add much TR on the VibSensor graph compared to the BOSS alone


Hey Tony, thanks for stopping by and checking out the thread!! Progress has been pretty steady, and pretty fun too …it’s getting there I think  A fair amount of my pics aren’t showing up about midway through the thread, so probably need to go fix that at some point (had to change hosting servers and didn’t get them all moved). So, sorry about that if you happened to go through most of it. Pics always make things more exciting IMO!

Yeah, I don’t have the MAs set super high in the mix and is mostly BOSS. I could turn them up more, but feels about right, even though the VS graphs don’t show a whole lot more TR. On real world content though I can definitely feel it, especially in the singles. The main thing is that they are combining constructively, or at least mostly across the range. I’ve got the MAs LPF'ed at 25hz and the BOSS at 35hz. It’s a little easier to see where they add visually on the white noise VS. Its in the numbers too if you look closely.

Awesome job on your BOSS by the way!! And your seats are perfect to fit 2 per seat, drivers down, with all the space you have underneath. I’m a bit jealous of your seats and the way you were able to fit them all up underneath so easily , but VERY VERY cool!!!     So happy for you!! Your EOT VS reading looks killer too my friend!! From some of your posts Ive seen around on a few of the threads, sounds like your really enjoying the heck out of it already!! Nice!! Pretty crazy the TR the BOSS can deliver huh! ..and not just any ole TR, fantastic realistic feeling TR!!


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## SBuger

Daniel Chaves said:


> If I may ask, roughly how much $ do you think you have into this setup?


Hey there Daniel! Well, it’s starting to add up pretty good. Too much probably, at least with TR devises! LOL. But DIY on the subs helped some. I assume your asking about the Bass and TR part?

BOSS is by far the cheapest at around $300 for the 6 drivers (I wasn’t able to catch the $29 sale), plus the wood. Then I just use one of my BK amps to power it.

Crowson MAs …about 3 grand …yikes!!  They are unbeatable in the single digits though and worth it IMO. I probably don’t need 6 of them, but I have them lol

Got 4 BK LFE’s too that are probably about a grand (not currently in use with the MAs and BOSS), but may put them back in, IDK.

4 BKA1000-N amps, which they don’t make anymore, but are great (I bought 2 new and 2 used). I’ve probably got close to a grand in BK amps.

Then the subs, they are all DIY, or I guess I should say AIY. 4 Stereo Integrity DS4-18s (bought at $275 a piece IIRC). They don’t make them anymore or I would have went with 2 more that I needed recently. I just went with Dayton UM18-22’s instead which works just fine, as they are very similar. So about $460ish per cab and driver bundle, plus connecters etc. So, a little under 3 grand for all 6 subs. 

Plus 3 iNuke 6000dsp's to power them that I got good deals on. I think I paid about a grand for all 3 in total. 

So total for all subs and TR devices together, probably a little under 10 grand.


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## Daniel Chaves

SBuger said:


> Hey there Daniel! Well, it’s starting to add up pretty good. Too much probably, at least with TR devises! LOL. But DIY on the subs helped some. I assume your asking about the Bass and TR part?
> 
> BOSS is by far the cheapest at around $300 for the 6 drivers (I wasn’t able to catch the $29 sale), plus the wood. Then I just use one of my BK amps to power it.
> 
> Crowson MAs …about 3 grand …yikes!!  They are unbeatable in the single digits though and worth it IMO. I probably don’t need 6 of them, but I have them lol
> 
> Got 4 BK LFE’s too that are probably about a grand (not currently in use with the MAs and BOSS), but may put them back in, IDK.
> 
> 4 BKA1000-N amps, which they don’t make anymore, but are great (I bought 2 new and 2 used). I’ve probably got close to a grand in BK amps.
> 
> Then the subs, they are all DIY, or I guess I should say AIY. 4 Stereo Integrity DS4-18s (bought at $275 a piece IIRC). They don’t make them anymore or I would have went with 2 more that I needed recently. I just went with Dayton UM18-22’s instead which works just fine, as they are very similar. So about $460ish per cab and driver bundle, plus connecters etc. So, a little under 3 grand for all 6 subs.
> 
> Plus 3 iNuke 6000dsp's to power them that I got good deals on. I think I paid about a grand for all 3 in total.
> 
> So total for all subs and TR devices together, probably a little under 10 grand.


Yeah I figured those Crowson MA was a good chunk of that particular BOSS build, man those are certainly pricey... ^^;; 
But thank you for the break down, much appreciated.


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## SBuger

^^^ No prob man!


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## SBuger

I haven’t tried any VS measurements on this yet, but I have been meaning to try replacing LPFs on my BOSS and MAs with negative HS’s instead, because I remember Aron's and Nalleh’s tests a while back in the Crowson thread saying that the LPF introduces delay, and (more delay as the order of BW slope increases too). Thus, taking away from the negative delay that we are after.

So, I tried it on the MAs first, changing out the LPF with a negative HS. Made a huge diff in punch, clarity, and that dynamic powerful feel. The difference in feel was pretty shocking actually. So, then I did the same thing on the BOSS. And hot damn if it didn’t make a huge diff too!!  Again, another very substantial difference in clarity, punch, and well ….more of that insane violent TR feel in the 15 to 30-35hz that I was trying to explain to Nalleh in one of my recent posts above. Actually the ULF TR seemed better too, but cant be for sure just yet. I’ll have to see what it’s doing to the SPL of the BOSS with other subs since I get SPL out of setting on the floor just like a sealed sub. It seemed like I was getting more combined SPL in the 30-40 area too but should be no prob to cut it back on my other subs to bring it back down if this is the case when I do a full re-cal soon. Was kind of hurting my ears a bit after changing the to the negative HS in the BOSS, but GAWD, the new found violence in the TR was like shock and awe LMAO!!! HA, and I was super happy with it before. Just goes to show it can always be better I guess with a little tweaking in the right direction LOL Loved it and can’t wait to mess with it a bit more over the coming days and see if I feel the same about it, as I didn’t have a ton of time to mess with it. I was pretty stoked though with what little bit I messed with it!!

@Nalleh and @aron7awol – have you tried any negative HS’s in place of your LPFs yet? It might not give you the same effect as it gave me, but possibly  Don’t know it it’ll make much diff on my VS graphs, but don’t know that I even care actually, the TR feels quite a bit better. So, more negative delay, plus probably a bit more boost/overshoot below (to the left of the - HS) is what is creating this better feel I think.

Also, Nalleh, I tested the BOSS sub riser in not inverted phase like you was asking about the other day. Not good, I lost a ton of TR feel, so switched it back right away lol. Every time Ive tried switching to back to non-inverted phase just to check and make sure, I always switch it right back because it just feels wrong.


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## tvuong

^^ Another great find that I will have to try. What do you have your negative gain HS set at? in place of your 35hz LPF 12BW you had (I believe)?
Regarding the inverted phase, most people report one of the two (0 or 180) does not feel right but in my case, I wonder why the difference between 0 and 180 is barely noticeable.


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## Nalleh

@SBuger: that’s awsome that the negative HS made a difference for you too  My findings was it made ~7ms difference in the neg. HS favour compared to LPF used in this case, but Aron’s results was not as big.

I have used the neg. HS alternative since i discovered it 


However as i also showed earlier, putting the BOSS on the same delay as the farfields, improved on the VS graphs( and as such did not need the improved negative delay. That was back when i had the normal "under the seat" BOSS, not my current cantilever one).


Edit: oh, and thanks for the info on your reply above.

Oh yeah, the BK’s opened up my eyes(ears) to the 15-30 hz too, so thanks for that. The other day while doing som demo clips(The Meg) i, for the first time while doing that, tried to speak! You know when you hit your hand fast on your chest while talking you get that vibrating voice? Well, my voice was vibration like that while playing the clips, LOL, it was hilarious 
The single digits is what lifts your whole body, but the 15-30hz is what truly shakes you. When you get both, that’s when the fun begins 

Haha yup, i hear you on the wanting to tell the one in the other seat to stop moving, sometimes i think it is a really low wobble, only to discover it was the other person moving, LOL.


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## SBuger

tvuong said:


> ^^ Another great find that I will have to try. What do you have your negative gain HS set at? in place of your 35hz LPF 12BW you had (I believe)?
> Regarding the inverted phase, most people report one of the two (0 or 180) does not feel right but in my case, I wonder why the difference between 0 and 180 is barely noticeable.


It may not make much difference in feel for the better on yours, but always worth a try. Yep, I was at LPF 35hz BW12 on BOSS, but had lowered it back to about 30hz. Replaced it with a negative HS at 34hz/Gain -10/Q 0.9. I had the MAs backed off to LPF at 25 hz to 22hz BW12 and replaced it with a negative HS at 30hz/Gain -10/Q 0.9. I’m sure the slopes don’t exactly match up to the LPF and does give a bit more below in that 15-25hz region. It felt fantastic though with what little bit I messed with it yesterday but can probably still be tweaked a little further on those numbers to feel the most optimized for preference. If it makes a nice diff for you too, you may have mess with the numbers a bit as well to match your preferences better, to feel optimized across the board so that nothing feels too overbearing in areas, etc. 

Regarding the phase on the BOSS, yeah some seem to feel a diff, and some don’t. 

This is what I’ve found with mine: If totally floated with isolators (like recommended), I didn’t feel a ton of difference switching from inverted to non-inverted with BOSS ‘only’. BUT, with subs in the mix, especially VNF subs because they give a bunch of TR too (and or MAs), non-inverted phase on the BOSS was not good at all (with driver cones facing up), as it would almost totally cancel out TR below 25hz (it would get worse the lower the frequency got, like darn near totally cancelling out 12hz TR wobble and under). Just awful!!! Above 30hz though, it would get even stronger combined. Like way too strong, so that was bad as well, but not as aggravating as cancelling lol. It’s just that the timing/phase was off and was affected differently at different frequencies along the band, if that makes sense. Just like two subs being out of phase for SPL basically, but with TR. 

Now, as far as now with the platform setting on the floor and acting way more like a sealed riser, it still reacts the same as far as combining constructively with other TR components like the VNF subs and or MAs (BK too if I have them in the mix in upright position) with those phase setting like I described in the above paragraph. As far as the BOSS all by itself setting on the floor (no other subs or TR components in the mix) or, IDK, don’t think I’ve tried that yet. The BOSS 'only' may or may not feel that much different just like I was saying with the platform totally isolated/floating. 

YMMV though. Since you just have FF subs, you may not notice that big of a difference. You be easy enough to tell though just my inverting and switching back with FF subs on and then off to tell. Also, VS you tell/show you as well in the numbers and visually on the power spectrum graph.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> @SBuger: that’s awsome that the negative HS made a difference for you too  My findings was it made ~7ms difference in the neg. HS favour compared to LPF used in this case, but Aron’s results was not as big.
> 
> I have used the neg. HS alternative since i discovered it
> 
> 
> However as i also showed earlier, putting the BOSS on the same delay as the farfields, improved on the VS graphs( and as such did not need the improved negative delay. That was back when i had the normal "under the seat" BOSS, not my current cantilever one).
> 
> 
> Edit: oh, and thanks for the info on your reply above.
> 
> Oh yeah, the BK’s opened up my eyes(ears) to the 15-30 hz too, so thanks for that. The other day while doing som demo clips(The Meg) i, for the first time while doing that, tried to speak! You know when you hit your hand fast on your chest while talking you get that vibrating voice? Well, my voice was vibration like that while playing the clips, LOL, it was hilarious
> The single digits is what lifts your whole body, but the 15-30hz is what truly shakes you. When you get both, that’s when the fun begins
> 
> Haha yup, i hear you on the wanting to tell the one in the other seat to stop moving, sometimes i think it is a really low wobble, only to discover it was the other person moving, LOL.


Cool on the HS then!!!

LOL on the voice!!! Yeah pretty crazy huh!!! I was trying that on the 12hz strong ‘wobble’ scene down in the tunnel in ‘IT’ the other day. Crazy that even wobble can mess with your voice too when it gets strong enough 

Yeah pretty crazy how the singles can really feel like its lifting your body, I’ve noticed that too. Maybe its partially because of strong Y axis? I do think that’s what can give the feeling like its tossing you forward as well.


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## tvuong

^^ Thanks Shelby. With my DSP being from the NX3000D, I only have either HS6 or HS12 setting with no q setting. I don't know which HS setting mimics the 30Hz LPF; perhaps @aron7awol or @Nalleh can help me figuring that out.
Regarding the phase, I was playing with it with all subs (2 in front, 2 in back) and boss ON and there was barely any difference switching between 0 and 180 on the NX3000D. No biggie, just curious.


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## SBuger

*A small update and conclusion to my BOSS update last week …*

So after getting the BOSS in my system and discovering that the 6 JBLs in the 6” riser just setting on the floor (no isos) felt the best out of all the experiments I did (with and without isolators, several different platforms and even my 3 18 inch drivers (that I robed from my VNFs) to use in cantilevered position), I took a bit of time recently to get my FR back in line to go with it. 

One of the FR problems it caused was since I moved/raised my seating up about 6” with seats now setting on the platform, I needed some adjustment on the distance (subwoofer distance tweak) to get the crossover to speakers region leveled back out. I had to reduce the distance a little to get rid of a dip that it had created in this area. 

But the main thing was that I now have a BOSS ‘sub riser’ that is basically a big sealed sub that I’m setting on, and is creating SPL to go along with the TR. The TR chase is what sent me on this new journey in the first place but ended up getting more than just TR out of it LOL. 

Not a problem though, with a little bit of levels and tweaking, it integrated easy enough and combines constructively at all frequencies that I run it in. I roll it off pretty hard about 35hz with a negative HS (High Shelf), + I have a High cut off set on my BK amp @50hz that I power it with as well. So, it not doing much at all below about 35-40hz, which is what I seem to prefer TR wise from the BOSS in this configuration.

So, even though the individual subs are set a little differently than before (with levels, PEQ, etc), the overall combined FR looks about like it used to before I put the BOSS sub riser in and gives a moderate rising house curve form high to low frequencies, which seems to work fantastic with BEQ’d movies (as well Non BEQ’d native 5 star bass monster movies that dig deep too). 

Current FR:
RED = All subs + CC crossed at 90hz …










And here is with all subs showing individually and then all combined. As you can probably see, none of them on their own are that great (side wall NF/FF subs probably look the best). Multiple locations in this challenging square room are required without having to use massive PEQ (which is not good) to get a good overall response. I still have to use some low shelf to boost the low end a bit and a few peak filters to cut a few peaks here and there (mainly around 45hz from bad room mode). But with that said, they combine pretty much perfectly to make up a pretty nice response (looking and sounding). 

RED = All subs combined with center channel (FF + NFs + VNFs + BOSS)
PURPLE = 1 18” FF sub on the front wall
BLUE = 2 18” NF/FF subs on the side walls
GREEN = 3 18” VNF subs behind the seats (one behind each seat)
BLACK = BOSS Sub Riser with 6 JBL 12” subs setting on floor under seats










^^^ @Nalleh, you were asking about the FR the other day on the BOSS being mostly sealed and how it affects and integrates with the other subs, so there it is. It has some natural SPL roll off from being sealed under about 18hz. I just let it roll off though and pick up the lower end under this point with the other subs, as the BOSS’s TR is super strong already down to 10hz and under with no LS (singles too, but ad we know doesn’t show well on VS white noise). So it gets no LS and only a hefty negative HS filter at 35hz of -10db, + the hight cutoff at 50hz on thr BK amp that drops it off pretty quickly over 35-40hz. It still does help contribute a bit of SPL down real low though in combo with the other subs. The other subs get a LS of about 6-8db. Actually, the FF sub is only showing 4db here in the FR graph, but I picked it up to 6db to lift the low end just a bit more for more House Curve (and weight) after some demoing but didn’t rerun REW. 

So, not super pretty FR for individual individual sub locations, as this is a pretty trying room full of room modes, but have to deal with it. Multiple sub locations is the only way here. well, Side wall NF/FF subs only could probably give me a nice looking FR, but doesn't give me enough FEEL. That’s ok though, spread out more, the overall FR with when all combined is about as good as I could ever ask/hope for I think, plus gives me the feel I crave from PV with the VNFs close behind me in the mix and the weight, fullness, and good sound from the subs farther away, so it all works out 

TR: I didn’t take any more VS measurements since the ones I posted last, but they probably still look similar now (I’ll post them again down below). Yes, I’ve added the VNFs back in behind my seats, but probably won’t read a ton higher. But man, can they ever really be felt within the body, which is what I SO love the VNFs for. I even still have them setting on the floor. I was going to raiser them (and even angle them) but wanted to try something with them setting on the floor first, as they are a bit lower than the way they used to be (pre - BOSS riser). With them up higher on my seat back, I was actually getting too much mid bass sharpness in the chest at times and could be distracting and annoying), even with a negative HS to reduce this midbass area. But with them lower, it seems to be just right now, and don’t have to use that negative HS either, bringing the midbass SPL back up too. Before the BOSS, I used to use the negative HS to lower the midbass SPL and TR, and then increase the gain on the subs and or sub trims a bit to help create a house curve. It used to work great. Now, I let the BOSS sub riser help more with that rising HC and not use the negative HS on the VNFs. This seems to be working out perfectly so far, for sound and feel.

So the VSs still probably look close to this (I may try to run a few more VSs when I get a chance), even though I’ve made a few changes with negative HSs in place of LPF on the BOSS and Crowson MAs, and also added the VNFs back in as well. The Negative HS in place of the LPFs really seemed to help give the TR a more precise and visceral feel, which is super cool!! I thought it was great before, but I’ll take it  It actually made quite a difference in feel, as I think it gives more negative delay like Nalleh showed in his tests on his.

White Noise 0-50hz (same as before, BOSS only (left pic) and BOSS + MAs (right pic)..









EOT Intro (BOSS only (left pic) and BOSS + MAs (right pic)...









** ^^^ not a ton of difference on the VS graphs above from BOSS only to BOSS + MAs, but can sure be felt, especially in the single digits. The BOSS is doing most of the TR work and feels just about right with the MAs contributing that amount. Like I was saying though, not a ton of visual diff, but it's in the numbers if you look close, and most importantly, can really be felt  

I’ll post the pic again of the final config of the BOSS sub riser + Crowson MAs + VNF subs before seating for a visual. Also, no isos on bottom art all, but I did actually like the feel better with isos under the back feet on top of the platform spaced in between the Crowson MAs. non on the front though on top. So I am using 4 Isos, so not totally isolator-less I guess LOL









So, how do I like it all now??? Well, I know I’ve said this who knows how many times before, LOL, but I truly think I’m done tweaking and upgrading/adding more bass and TR in my room, at least for a very long while. 

I don’t think I could be more thrilled with what it’s giving me now. I’m in shock over it actually. I’ve been chasing this feel and sound that I’m getting now ever since I moved up into this new room, with numerous configs and experiments. I’ve been close before and pretty darn happy with it, but never quite to this level. It was good, but I always felt it could still be better in ways. Little did I know that the missing ingredient would eventually be the BOSS in the mix, or in my case, kind of a BOSS/sub riser thing as a hybrid with my other TR gear   

With subs underneath me now that produce sound as well, besides just TR, it’s brought a new dimension to the bass it seems. To me, it just seems so big, full and enveloping now with just the right amount of weight and pressure for my tastes. Seems so clean and punchy too, which I love. The VNFs really help bring that visceral feel that you can feel internally in the upper body, while also helping a little bit with the big full sound that the NFs, FF and BOSS riser gives.

Combined with the TR the Crowson MAs and BOSS deliver, I think it’s the most violent/ferocious TR I’ve ever felt, while also being the most realistic and natural that I’ve ever felt as well. From full on scary that feels like it may do damage to you , to the super subtle and everything in between. So far, it’s exactly what I’ve been chasing and think it’s giving me everything I could hope for, and then some maybe. I’ll be really surprised if it doesn’t keep me satisfied for a very, very, very long time. I guess I’ll keep my BK LFEs around incase that doesn’t happen and can try to add them back into the mix lol, but for now, as good as the BK LFE’s can be and as much as I’ve enjoyed them over the years, I think they are out for now and not needed anymore. I thought I’d never say that, as I’m such a super fan of them for a lot of reasons. 

Well, at least that’s how I feel about it all now. We’ll see if I continue to feel that way over the coming days and months. I sure hope so, as I’m getting tired of messing with it all (as much as I love experimenting and tinkering with it all trying to get the most out of it and making it the best it can be), I’m ready to settle in an watch a ton of content that I’m getting pretty far behind on, and just enjoy 

I did watch a couple BEQ’d movies already though with the BOSS in the mix (Creed II and The Girl in the Spiders Web) that were pure joy and makes it all worth it. Makes me feel so fortunate to have a capable HT and opened my eyes to what is possible from hanging around this awesome forum. 

Anyway, thanks for the support and following along this far in my HT journey guys!! Not sure when my next decent update will be, maybe a 4k projector next, but will have to save a while for that one.


----------



## Sekosche

SBuger said:


> *A small update and conclusion to my BOSS update last week …*
> 
> 
> 
> So after getting the BOSS in my system and discovering that the 6 JBLs in the 6” riser just setting on the floor (no isos) felt the best out of all the experiments I did (with and without isolators, several different platforms and even my 3 18 inch drivers (that I robed from my VNFs) to use in cantilevered position), I took a bit of time recently to get my FR back in line to go with it.
> 
> 
> 
> One of the FR problems it caused was since I moved/raised my seating up about 6” with seats now setting on the platform, I needed some adjustment on the distance (subwoofer distance tweak) to get the crossover to speakers region leveled back out. I had to reduce the distance a little to get rid of a dip that it had created in this area.
> 
> 
> 
> But the main thing was that I now have a BOSS ‘sub riser’ that is basically a big sealed sub that I’m setting on, and is creating SPL to go along with the TR. The TR chase is what sent me on this new journey in the first place but ended up getting more than just TR out of it LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a problem though, with a little bit of levels and tweaking, it integrated easy enough and combines constructively at all frequencies that I run it in. I roll it off pretty hard about 35hz with a negative HS (High Shelf), + I have a High cut off set on my BK amp @50hz that I power it with as well. So, it not doing much at all below about 35-40hz, which is what I seem to prefer TR wise from the BOSS in this configuration.
> 
> 
> 
> So, even though the individual subs are set a little differently than before (with levels, PEQ, etc), the overall combined FR looks about like it used to before I put the BOSS sub riser in and gives a moderate rising house curve form high to low frequencies, which seems to work fantastic with BEQ’d movies (as well Non BEQ’d native 5 star bass monster movies that dig deep too).
> 
> 
> 
> Current FR:
> 
> RED = All subs + CC crossed at 90hz …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is with all subs showing individually and then all combined. As you can probably see, none of them on their own are that great (side wall NF/FF subs probably look the best). Multiple locations in this challenging square room are required without having to use massive PEQ (which is not good) to get a good overall response. I still have to use some low shelf to boost the low end a bit and a few peak filters to cut a few peaks here and there (mainly around 45hz from bad room mode). But with that said, they combine pretty much perfectly to make up a pretty nice response (looking and sounding).
> 
> 
> 
> RED = All subs combined with center channel (FF + NFs + VNFs + BOSS)
> 
> PURPLE = 1 18” FF sub on the front wall
> 
> BLUE = 2 18” NF/FF subs on the side walls
> 
> GREEN = 3 18” VNF subs behind the seats (one behind each seat)
> 
> BLACK = BOSS Sub Riser with 6 JBL 12” subs setting on floor under seats
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^ @Nalleh, you were asking about the FR the other day on the BOSS being mostly sealed and how it affects and integrates with the other subs, so there it is. It has some natural SPL roll off from being sealed under about 18hz. I just let it roll off though and pick up the lower end under this point with the other subs, as the BOSS’s TR is super strong already down to 10hz and under with no LS (singles too, but ad we know doesn’t show well on VS white noise). So it gets no LS and only a hefty negative HS filter at 35hz of -10db, + the hight cutoff at 50hz on thr BK amp that drops it off pretty quickly over 35-40hz. It still does help contribute a bit of SPL down real low though in combo with the other subs. The other subs get a LS of about 6-8db. Actually, the FF sub is only showing 4db here in the FR graph, but I picked it up to 6db to lift the low end just a bit more for more House Curve (and weight) after some demoing but didn’t rerun REW.
> 
> 
> 
> So, not super pretty FR for individual individual sub locations, as this is a pretty trying room full of room modes, but have to deal with it. Multiple sub locations is the only way here. well, Side wall NF/FF subs only could probably give me a nice looking FR, but doesn't give me enough FEEL. That’s ok though, spread out more, the overall FR with when all combined is about as good as I could ever ask/hope for I think, plus gives me the feel I crave from PV with the VNFs close behind me in the mix and the weight, fullness, and good sound from the subs farther away, so it all works out
> 
> 
> 
> TR: I didn’t take any more VS measurements since the ones I posted last, but they probably still look similar now (I’ll post them again down below). Yes, I’ve added the VNFs back in behind my seats, but probably won’t read a ton higher. But man, can they ever really be felt within the body, which is what I SO love the VNFs for. I even still have them setting on the floor. I was going to raiser them (and even angle them) but wanted to try something with them setting on the floor first, as they are a bit lower than the way they used to be (pre - BOSS riser). With them up higher on my seat back, I was actually getting too much mid bass sharpness in the chest at times and could be distracting and annoying), even with a negative HS to reduce this midbass area. But with them lower, it seems to be just right now, and don’t have to use that negative HS either, bringing the midbass SPL back up too. Before the BOSS, I used to use the negative HS to lower the midbass SPL and TR, and then increase the gain on the subs and or sub trims a bit to help create a house curve. It used to work great. Now, I let the BOSS sub riser help more with that rising HC and not use the negative HS on the VNFs. This seems to be working out perfectly so far, for sound and feel.
> 
> 
> 
> So the VSs still probably look close to this (I may try to run a few more VSs when I get a chance), even though I’ve made a few changes with negative HSs in place of LPF on the BOSS and Crowson MAs, and also added the VNFs back in as well. The Negative HS in place of the LPFs really seemed to help give the TR a more precise and visceral feel, which is super cool!! I thought it was great before, but I’ll take it  It actually made quite a difference in feel, as I think it gives more negative delay like Nalleh showed in his tests on his.
> 
> 
> 
> White Noise 0-50hz (same as before, BOSS only (left pic) and BOSS + MAs (right pic)..
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> EOT Intro (BOSS only (left pic) and BOSS + MAs (right pic)...
> 
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> 
> ** ^^^ not a ton of difference on the VS graphs above from BOSS only to BOSS + MAs, but can sure be felt, especially in the single digits. The BOSS is doing most of the TR work and feels just about right with the MAs contributing that amount. Like I was saying though, not a ton of visual diff, but it's in the numbers if you look close, and most importantly, can really be felt
> 
> 
> 
> I’ll post the pic again of the final config of the BOSS sub riser + Crowson MAs + VNF subs before seating for a visual. Also, no isos on bottom art all, but I did actually like the feel better with isos under the back feet on top of the platform spaced in between the Crowson MAs. non on the front though on top. So I am using 4 Isos, so not totally isolator-less I guess LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, how do I like it all now??? Well, I know I’ve said this who knows how many times before, LOL, but I truly think I’m done tweaking and upgrading/adding more bass and TR in my room, at least for a very long while.
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t think I could be more thrilled with what it’s giving me now. I’m in shock over it actually. I’ve been chasing this feel and sound that I’m getting now ever since I moved up into this new room, with numerous configs and experiments. I’ve been close before and pretty darn happy with it, but never quite to this level. It was good, but I always felt it could still be better in ways. Little did I know that the missing ingredient would eventually be the BOSS in the mix, or in my case, kind of a BOSS/sub riser thing as a hybrid with my other TR gear
> 
> 
> 
> With subs underneath me now that produce sound as well, besides just TR, it’s brought a new dimension to the bass it seems. To me, it just seems so big, full and enveloping now with just the right amount of weight and pressure for my tastes. Seems so clean and punchy too, which I love. The VNFs really help bring that visceral feel that you can feel internally in the upper body, while also helping a little bit with the big full sound that the NFs, FF and BOSS riser gives.
> 
> 
> 
> Combined with the TR the Crowson MAs and BOSS deliver, I think it’s the most violent/ferocious TR I’ve ever felt, while also being the most realistic and natural that I’ve ever felt as well. From full on scary that feels like it may do damage to you , to the super subtle and everything in between. So far, it’s exactly what I’ve been chasing and think it’s giving me everything I could hope for, and then some maybe. I’ll be really surprised if it doesn’t keep me satisfied for a very, very, very long time. I guess I’ll keep my BK LFEs around incase that doesn’t happen and can try to add them back into the mix lol, but for now, as good as the BK LFE’s can be and as much as I’ve enjoyed them over the years, I think they are out for now and not needed anymore. I thought I’d never say that, as I’m such a super fan of them for a lot of reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at least that’s how I feel about it all now. We’ll see if I continue to feel that way over the coming days and months. I sure hope so, as I’m getting tired of messing with it all (as much as I love experimenting and tinkering with it all trying to get the most out of it and making it the best it can be), I’m ready to settle in an watch a ton of content that I’m getting pretty far behind on, and just enjoy
> 
> 
> 
> I did watch a couple BEQ’d movies already though with the BOSS in the mix (Creed II and The Girl in the Spiders Web) that were pure joy and makes it all worth it. Makes me feel so fortunate to have a capable HT and opened my eyes to what is possible from hanging around this awesome forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the support and following along this far in my HT journey guys!! Not sure when my next decent update will be, maybe a 4k projector next, but will have to save a while for that one.



Wow, incredible! That is all.


----------



## Nalleh

@SBuger: awsome update again, as always 

Yeah, it looks like each components has a bit uneven curve, and you seem to have a room node at about 15hz, creating a dip on all of them, but they sum up pretty good, so that’s good, and as you say the most important thing is how it sounds. And you seem to be happy with that, and i guess after all your trying, that is a good thing  About time you get to enjoy some movies, man 

We have talked about setup before, and without all this work you have put in, you would not be able to enjoy the fruits of your labour now, and it is nice to think about the fact that you have tried every options with the gear you have available, heck even 3x18" BOSS, LOL. No more "what if’s", LOL.

There is no doubt that you have ended up with a insane KILLER setup, and it must be totally nuts to experience, so you should be proud and relax and enjoy for a while........ until the next fad comes along 

It has been so fun following you and spitballing with you on this journey, and we have inspired and cheered each other to do the next step, and it is really fun to read you are finally satisified and have reached your nirvana.

We have had pretty much the same taste and preferences about sound, and have had pretty similar setup and gear for a long while, until this BOSS thing came along, and it is also funny to see how we now have differed a bit about our approaches, but still we both seemed to have arrived at a sort of goal, where we have found what we looked for and hoped to achieve.

Even though we now have a bit different setup and gear, i still think we have much of the same qualities and signature of the sound if we could sit down and listen ot each others setup. 

That would be something 

Good times to be a AV-nerd


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## SBuger

Sekosche said:


> Wow, incredible! That is all.


Thanks man!!


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> @SBuger: awsome update again, as always
> 
> Yeah, it looks like each components has a bit uneven curve, and you seem to have a room node at about 15hz, creating a dip on all of them, but they sum up pretty good, so that’s good, and as you say the most important thing is how it sounds. And you seem to be happy with that, and i guess after all your trying, that is a good thing  About time you get to enjoy some movies, man
> 
> We have talked about setup before, and without all this work you have put in, you would not be able to enjoy the fruits of your labour now, and it is nice to think about the fact that you have tried every options with the gear you have available, heck even 3x18" BOSS, LOL. No more "what if’s", LOL.
> 
> There is no doubt that you have ended up with a insane KILLER setup, and it must be totally nuts to experience, so you should be proud and relax and enjoy for a while........ until the next fad comes along
> 
> It has been so fun following you and spitballing with you on this journey, and we have inspired and cheered each other to do the next step, and it is really fun to read you are finally satisified and have reached your nirvana.
> 
> We have had pretty much the same taste and preferences about sound, and have had pretty similar setup and gear for a long while, until this BOSS thing came along, and it is also funny to see how we now have differed a bit about our approaches, but still we both seemed to have arrived at a sort of goal, where we have found what we looked for and hoped to achieve.
> 
> Even though we now have a bit different setup and gear, i still think we have much of the same qualities and signature of the sound if we could sit down and listen ot each others setup.
> 
> That would be something
> 
> Good times to be a AV-nerd


Thanks, Nalleh!! 

Yep, got that 15hz room mode going on. Guess what that is from …it used to not be there when I first moved into that room for initial testing with all doors closed. BUT, when I removed the closet door that houses the PJ, amps, PC etc. it put that dip in there for all sub locations. Crazy, but it sure enough did lol. I used to boost that back up with a peak filter. Looked good on the graphs, but I always thought the overall sound suffered a little from doing it (whatever the reason) and in the end wasn’t worth it. So, now I just let it be what it is in that area.

So, about the setup, thanks man! And yep, lot of work trying just about everything I could think of. Yes, I ‘Know’ and don’t have to wonder anymore though. At least until the next fad comes along like you say LOL. Hopefully that’s not for a long time, cause I seem to have a problem with saying ‘NO’ hahahaha

Same to ya brother, it’s been so fun spit balling on the journey, inspiring and cheering each other etc. like you say. It’s been a blast I really appreciate all your help along the way!! I don’t think my system would be where it’s at now in a lot of ways without you my friend!! So, THANK YOU!! 

Yep, we’ve definitely had/have real similar preferences in sound, TR and setup leading up to this point. I think we still do actually, just went about it a little differently here at the end. It REALLY surprised me that the JBL riser setting on the ground worked better for me than the 3 18” cantilevered setup more like the direction you’ve gone. I really think it must have come down to a seating thing and hell, maybe even the way I constructed the platform. Even though I tried to construct it real similar to yours, I used 2x6’s instead since mine needed to be pretty big for all three seats, plus my seats needed for surface for all the million little feet my seats seem to have. I wanted it pretty sturdy and all that. IDK, maybe it would have worked better with individual platforms for each seat, kind of like you did or are doing, IDK. Either way, I ended up super happy with the JBLs in sub riser form, and it left the 18’s for VNF duty. So, it all worked out.

But like you say (and I think I mentioned it in your thread the other day), I bet our setups still would feel way more similar than different, even with our different approaches. But that said, I’d be surprised if yours still didn’t have the edge and just meaner and maybe better feeling, with more power etc. I do feel that my bass and TR setup couldn’t really feel much better now and is pretty insane, but yours is truly INSANE if I ever saw one. Truly EPIC!! I mean c’mon, dual stacked MAs + BK LFE’s + 4 JBLs per seat cantilevered + VNF subs/SLAPS down firing for BOSS duty as well (at least last I saw) ….it doesn’t get more INSANE than that!!! Im sure that thing when unleashed feels like it could break you in half, and rightfully so!! I know what mine is capable of even with less gear. Plus, the amazing axis overlay you have going on. Better than my axis overlay. I don’t see how it couldn’t feel better with that alone LOL. Truly amazing what you’ve got going on there my bro!!!

If the 18’s would have felt better cantilevered in my system compared to the ‘riser’ that I just seem to LOVE’, my endgame setup would have probably looked very similar to your setup with almost the same gear. But for whatever reason, it didn’t go that way for me. Fortunately, I’m still over the moon happy with it  Besides, we can’t always be the exact same anyway right!!?? Hahahahaha

And yes, that would be something to set down and experience each other’s setup some day


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## Nalleh

Yeah sure, it’s not like we all have to do it the same way, how boring would that be, LOL. 
The creativity and ingenuity of people on this forum is what i love and is why i put up my stuff for everyone to see and maybe get some ideas for them self 

I think it is awsome that just between us two, we found pretty different ways to improve out TR, and where you loved direct mounting even though you tried cantilever, i had the exact opposite experience, LOL. It doesn’t matter, as long as we got a better result in the end 

Hey, i have dips in the FR too, in fact i think it is in the same ~15hz area, and had just the same expereince as you, maybe better to leave some dips, than boosting the crap out of the system. Win some, lose some 

Thanks for the props man, and right back at you, you have helped me too trough this journey, so thank you too


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Oh Yeah, i agree it is more like Scott’s sub riser, which reminds me: are you still running the JBL’s out of phase?
> 
> Because the reason to do that in the first place was with the iso’s below, the movement of the JBL’s got inverted trough the plattform, and needed inverted phase for the movement to be in sync with the farfields.
> 
> Now that you basically have a subwoofer box on the floor, the need for inverted phase should be gone?
> 
> And if you still run them out of phase, as they are now a sealed’ish box contributing to SPL, how does the FR look now?




Hey @Nalleh - remember not long ago here ^^^ when you were asking me about maybe not needing to invert my BOSS anymore since it's more like a 'sub riser' now with no isos and it being basically sealed like an 'almost normal sealed sub'? Then I said, its still feels way better inverted and combines better too with other components this way for TR. Well, it still does as it always has, even with isos for normal BOSS, but I forgot to tell you more about this in my last update with the FR responses and TR details. 

I've still got my MAs and BOSS on subout 2 (subout 1 has my FF, NFs and VNFs on subout 1). This allows me to get the most negative delay possible on my MAs and BOSS (and BKs when I was running them) by setting my delay in the AVR to 24.6' on subout 2 (or close to that - its the farthest that the AVR will allow with that crappy 'no farther than 20' away the from closest speaker thing that Denon enforces', + our 15' distance limit in the 10x10 mini).

So where I'm going with this is, YES, it probably should be 'not inverted' now. If I set the BOSS sub riser to the same distance as my VNF's, or even NF on the sides or FF up front (but VNFs is the best) and not 'inverted' and even on the same subout 1 as those 3 locations for FF, NF and VNF, the FR on the BOSS by itself looks about the same on it's own as when I have it set to 24.6' on subout 2 for the most negative delay possible and then have it phase 'inverted' in the miniDSP. Also, it combines about the same as well FR wise with the other subs, except it does combines a little better SPL wise under about 15hz. 

^^^ So, its actually just a tad bit better for my FR and SPL under 15hz with it not inverted and set to the distance of my VNF subs. BUT, here is the kicker and most important to me by far, the TR around 20hz and under is WAY better feeling!!!! Like it feels like the wobble is almost missing in comparison. 

So needless to say, it stays in inverted phase with the same negative delay as the MAs. Crazy and I could not hardly believe this, but just happy to get the most feel out of it and have my combined FR just almost as good down under 15hz. Phase and TR can be so weird sometimes and what feels best. I don't know that I really understand what was happening there, but just glad I found it because it feels like night and day diff on the ULF TR wobble with the BOSS sub riser set probably 'wrong' LOL

I didn't save the FR measurements to show this, or even take VS measurements of it, but it was so obviously apparent that it was shocking. Some of my favorite passages with ULF content that I so used to and familiar with was nearly gone with it set 'right' with non invert and correct distance. Even with just BOSS sub riser only and no other components in the mix (even though FR showed about the same). I guess this just goes to show again, its always worthwhile to try something out, even if it may be wrong in the 'Books' hahahahha

Anyways, thought you may find that interesting, since you were asking about it a while back. I know I sure did.


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## Nalleh

@SBuger: yeah i agree, what feels/sounds best is what you should go for. Right or wrong 

But if you measure your BOSS on its own(or any of the LFE components on its own), then phase or delay adjustments shouldn’t matter, as it wouldn’t be any other components to interact with 
If you measure just one of them, the FR curve should loook exactly the same no matter how you adjust delay or phase.

And i am a bit confused if you run in or out of phase:
First you say not inverted gave much better TR below 20hz, and then you say it will stay inverted ?


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## SBuger

Oh yeah, it can get confusing I guess with all I said about it. BOSS sub riser set to 24.6' (just like my MAs for most negative delay) AND inverted gives the best TR under 20hz (combined or on its own), while FR looks about the same on its own and combined very well with the other subs too. 

Not inverted and set to the distance of my VNFs (5.6'), or even my NFs, I loose a ton of TR under 20hz, even though the FR own it's own looks about the same, and even combined a bit better for SPL under about 15hz with the other subs. Not a lot better under 15hz, but a little. 

The latter _'should'_ be the correct way of doing it, but FEELS so much better for TR under 20hz with the former. That's all I was saying 

The distances are far enough away from each other, that if inverted is not set with the farthest distance of 24.6', its bad and very much so combines de-constructivly SPL wise for FR in most of it's range that I run the BOSS sub riser in (35-40hz and under). And the opposite is true for when it's set to the closest distance. It must be set to not inverted when set to the 5.6' distance like my VNF subs, or the FR is different and combined just as bad (like fu-bar bad SPL cancellation with the other subs). The distances seem to be far enough away from each other in these two different scenarios, that they almost look the same and combine the same for FR if the invert and no invert are used at these extreme distance differences. BUT the TR is WAY better under 20hz, even though the FR looks very similar. So said in another way and shorter, b'oth' ways give about the same looking FR, on its own or combined, but, the other way gives WAY better TR under 20hz to accompany it. 

Clear as mud right Hahahahahaha 

IDK, maybe I should have just kept that bit info to myself, as it just seems to confuse and I can see how it would. But wanted to share it with you, as I found that pretty interesting. Really, only thing that matters I guess in the end though, is what feels right (and sounds right too) in everyone's system like you say, no matter the reason.


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## Nalleh

^^ Thanks, i understand now 

Sounds like you have arrived at the best option


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## SBuger

*A bit more update from last time (warning ...kind of a long post here)*

So I said I was done experimenting and tweaking with the bass and TR in my setup in last weeks update, and was ready to just start really enjoying it and watching a lot of content.

Well here I am a week later and I just couldn’t help myself I guess LOL. I caved and did a few more little experiments I had intended to do previously on my VNFs and also made a few little tweaks here and there. 

But, that said I have been enjoying the heck out of the system and watching a lot of content like I said I wanted to do. The wife has even got in on quite a bit of it. 

Finished up the last two seasons of Game of Thrones, and watched First Man and Captain Marvel (CM twice lol), all with BEQ for full band of course BEQ rules!!!

Game of Thrones was awesome to watch on big screen!! Seemed very much like IMAX and just HUGE since it’s 16:9 and I sit so close to the 120”. I didn’t realize I was a season behind in GOT so that was a real treat to find out ....so an extra season that I didn’t even know I was gonna get. I wanted to try to get some real cool dragon pics, but didn't want to spend a bunch of time trying to find the really cool ones. But, I do love me some GOT and Dragons! The mother of Dragons is not too bad either, even though she has issues  Wouldn't mind watching the whole thing again start to finish once they all come out in Atmos, like the first two seasons: 



















I posted a little about First Man and Captain Marvel over in the BEQ thread the other day, but might as well mention it here too I guess. 

First Man with BassEQ, WOW!!!!! Some of coolest ULF TR and just overall TR I think I’ve ever experienced to go with the visuals on screen. I truly felt like I was in the shuttle compartment every time they were in it, not just the big blast take offs. From the tiniest of nuances to the big shifts and jolts. Pretty crazy how BEQ totally brings the ULF back to life from it being so heavily filtered. This movie’s effects would be no where near the same without it. Makes me thrilled to have a system capable of delivering the goods down deep into the singles digits.

My wife watched this one with me and even said it felt so real. She said it felt like we were on a ride and right there actually inside the cabin feeling it all. Was cool that she got to experience it with me.

We were watching a movies the other day (before First man), The Girl in the Spiders Web. There were some really awesome TR scenes that I had to rewind and replay right quick because they were just so cool. She normally doesn’t care at all about TR, but she said, I have to admit, that’s pretty darn awesome. So, I thought that was cool since she usually doesn’t care about that kind of stuff lol

That movie was awesome too BTW.

Then Captain Marvel. Supersized me. Pretty decent movie with some awesome ULF with BEQ and other bass, plus overall great Atmos mix. Was a good time!! 

I’ve done quite a lot of demoing too with good movie material (I still love to do this and always will I think). So after a week or so with being basically finished with the new BOSS sub riser in the system, I’m still blown away by it. I just can’t get over what this sub woofer riser feels like just setting on the ground with no isolators under it. It just almost doesn’t seem right when I really think about it and I would have never thought it could move me like it does and feel the way it feels. It’s kind of uncanny actually just how freaking real it feels, plus has tons of power across the board. So needless to say I guess, it’s probably been the best TR component I’ve ever added to my system. So glad I tried it out!!!

That said, I do love my Crowson MAs too and they really help add to it, especially down super low. They work together fantastic too, which is way cool.

So with all that said, what this post originally started out to be, was an update on what I messed with a little more. My VNF subs, and even checked out my BK LFEs one last time just to be sure I had made the right decision about Tao how them out of the mix.

But first and foremost, the Very Near Field subs. VNF yall, , they are friggin awesome!! I think I had almost forgotten just what VNFs subs are capable of delivering and why I have always been such a huge fan of them over the past 4-5 years.

My BOSS sub riser is 6” tall, so with the VNF subs setting on the floor, that leaves about that much of a gap from where the driver hits the seat back. So, I raised them up. Easy enough. I had plans to build a nice stand(s) and even angle them, but just used some crates for now that seems to work great to get the driver up higher.

First I tried them without the crate and just left the back end of the cab setting on the floor and rested the front on the back of the riser, since it has no isolators under the riser anyway with it sitting on the floor. So this angled it up, got the drivers a little closer to the seat backs and also gave additional TR as well from the cabinet in contact with the sub riser. Was pretty darn good.

I think I forgot to takes pics of this.

So then, next step was to raise the back end up with the crates and that brought the drivers up real close to the seat backs pretty close to chest level when Reclined.

A few Pics of that ...

You can see about an inch of the front of the cab resting on the sub riser. More would have been better but this worked for a first test:









And then all lined up, on riser and drivers up close to seat backs:









^^^ Pretty crazy, got the slam (and TR) from Particle Velocity since the drivers were so close to my back + the TR the cabinets created from being in contact with the sub riser. Since it was connected now, even with just about an inch of the front part of the cabinet, the TR could really be felt. But it just ended up being too much TR in the higher frequencies for my liking and didn’t feel quite right, since I like to crossover at 90hz. 80hz was even too much at times. My system seems to just sound and feel the best with crossovers set to 90hz. The LPF of LFE setting as well. So I wanted to leave them set like that if I could.

So next, moved the cabinet back a bit so that it’s not resting on the sub riser and only the crate to lift it up chest height and also fire into the bottom bracing of the seats as well.

You can see the crates I used to raise the subs up higher. Lightweight be seem to do the trick well for now:


















In between seats with subs behind:









Side shot the very left seat. Driver is about an inch away from the bottom crossbar and top of seat back. Can also see the back JBL 12". There is one in front of it too but can't see it. Can also see where I have the Crowson MAs positioned under the inner inside feet of the seat frame. They do real well here:









Another side seat shot:









A shot on left side corner. I do use 4 isoslators on top of the BOSS sub riser on the outer feet since the MAs are on the inner feet a bit further in (you can see one in the pic). None on the front or anywhere else though. I really like the feel of just these four isos on the top back in between the 6 MAs:









And a few shots with them all lined up. Lifted but not resting on the sub riser:



















^^^ Yes ....PERFECT! Brings a pretty good amount of TR and a whole a lot of slam that can really be felt internally from the PV. A ton of it actually. Drivers being only 6” closer made a pretty crazy difference!!! Especially in the MB area for chest feel. A LOT more visceral and in combo with the BOSS sub riser, there is a violence now that I didn’t really realize I was missing out on. The TR also feels more engulfing, bringing more of a feeling that the TR is coming from everywhere, if that makes sense.

Also, it’s not too sharp feeling in the chest like it used to be occasionally. I think them being about 1” lower than I used to have them pre 6” BOSS sub riser may have helped some, but also I think Audy was boosting the 68hz area a little too much on them previously, making them a little too aggressive feeling (or too sharp feeling in the chest I guess I could say with them being this close). Now that I’ve got plenty of subs spread out though, I can fix the problem pre-Audy.

LOVE LOVE LOVE the VNFs and now remember why I said I’d never be without them, no matter what other TR devices I’m running and or how great they might be. Almost didn’t think I needed them there for a while I guess, since I was so happy with the MAs and Sub Riser.

@Sekosche - I think your gonna be blown away by that 21” ported beast of a VNF sub your building, especially if you can get the drivers and even the port close to your back at the MLP.

In most cases I think, the combination is where the true magic is for the complete package though.

With that said, on to the BK LFEs. Over the last couple weeks or so, I had made the decision to retire them and take them out of the mix for different reasons that I may or nah not have mentioned in some of my previous posts.

So this is where they have been hanging out, as theater entryway decor LOL. 









Just doesn’t seem right huh! LOL. I still have a lot of respect for them and know what they are capable of. I’ve enjoyed them immensely over the years and was pretty much the backbone of my 13-28hz TR power.

So, since I see them every time I go in and out of the theater, I thought I’d give them one more chance. Plus @Nalleh is still rocking them out in his new setup and loving them. So your partially responsible too for me to try them again. hmmmmm ...what’s wrong with the world here Nalleh, I nagged you into trying them in your system because I told you they are just so good at what they do, then you gave in and you love them. Now I go and take them out of my system, WTF!!?? Strange times man LOL

Ok, So on with it.

Short version: They are staying retired and out of the mix. I know, seriously, WTF rihgt!!?? 

Long version: It still amazes me that I don’t think I need these anymore. In fact, I think they just do more harm than good when it comes to the overall TR feel for whatever reason in my setup. Yes, they combine well like they should and add more TR. But, I’m just so happy with the precision, power, explosive and extreme feeling of realism (at least to me anyway) with the combo of BOSS sub riser, MAs and VNFs that the BKs just seem to mess this up for me just a little bit no matter how I set them I the mix.

Could be that I’m just loosing my skills to be able to integrate these bad boys these days or maybe it’s just my particular seating. IDK, maybe a little of both. I thought the wee the best things ever on my couch so used to use.

So there it is. Now I know and gave them one more try (again) and don’t have to always wonder if I’m leaving more on the table by not having them in the mix. I guess I’ll be remaining BK LFEless. The combo of everything else seems to be giving me everything I want right now though, which is cool.

That said, I know setups can always be better. There are things I could still do and try and may at some point. Like maybe even add some SLAPS to my BOSS subriser in place of my rear 3 JBL 12’s, or even just the one in the rear position under my middle seat MLP. I think it would work great actually. Maybe not, but I’d be real surprised if t didn’t after what Nalleh has done with his, even though mine would be really different than his.

Then there is the 24” VNF sub behind the MLP like I’ve always dreamed of. That would bring on the hurt in a big way I think, especially since I seem to love what an 18” can do.

Or, build some stands that will angle my 18’s at about a 45 degree angle so the entire driver covers the seat back from lower to higher, which would bypass he part of the driver firing into the lower crossbar and out it more on my body. I think could deliver some pretty serious upper body blows. Might be amazing, but then again, might be too localized feeling and the way I have it now may be better overall. Only one way to find out. I actually already have the wood to build it, just haven’t wanted to take the time to mess with it yet. Maybe one of these days if I get board.

But for now, time to just enjoy the heck out this bass and TR setup as is for quite a while first. I think I’m finally tired of tinkering and trying to squeeze ever last drop of awesomeness I can out of it lol.

Speaking of tweaking. I did some of that as well this last couple of days now that I’ve settled on a setup config. After REWing and VSing etc for all the objective stuff, I put all that away and just made a few adjustments here and there by the seat of my pants so to speak , mainly levels adjustments on a few components to feel and sound the best to my ears and other senses with a variety of good demo material. Also, played with more and less isos on top. Even differnt kinds. I kept coming back to just the 4 hifi Hudson soft isos on the back of the outer seat feet in between the MAs. Again just going by feel here because in the end that the ultimate test and what matters most, not what the VS shows. I knew from VS measurements that I lose a bit of TR from adding them in. I don't care though. It feels quite a bit better with them in there, especially in the ULF TR department. Such smooth, fluid, powerful and super realistic feeling ULF TR movement with them in place. Take them out, and I loose some of that. I could really tell a big diff on First Man and a few others I tested it on. Seems to work well with my more rigid seating, softening is just the right amount. Add isos to the front in additions though and it gets almost to much and looses a bit tos much detail. 

After raising up my VNFs 6”, I found I liked my NFs 1 dB lower and the BOSS sub riser 1db lower as well. Then bumping sub trims 1/2db (Not that they were struggling or bottoming (I don’t think I’ve bottomed the 6x JBL 12’s yet with them in sub riser form yet, With ISOS under I did though trying to get enough low end)). It’s just that sometimes a bit -less- feels like -more-. A little cleaner and punchier and richer feeling. Kinda like running you’re subs too hot in the mix. Most of the time it doesn’t mean they are hitting their limits, it just sounds better if you back them off a bit to strike that perfect balance and harmony. So that may not sound like much with those tweaks I did, but really helped bring on the best feel and sound in my system I think. Sometime it doesn’t take much. I think I've got so much TR power I tap now, that it just comes down to the little things sometimes to get the best feel out of it all.

So that’s that. Then I also moved my 6 JBLs to one BK amp instead of split between two BK alps. So instead of 3 JBLs in series per one amp getting about 110-150 watts a piece, I’m now running them 3 JBLs in front in series and the other 3 in back in series and then running those together in parallel for a 6 ohm load instead of 12 ohm. I think that’s how that works anyway, probably doubling the power.

I had to turn the the BOSS sub riser down about 4db exactly in the mini to be the same level as before. Seems to be working great.

— kind of a funny story about the BKs amps thing — as if I haven’t typed out enough crap already LOL. When comparing the two ways ( 1 all vs 2 to power all 6 JBLs), when switching back to two amps at one point to compare, I somehow got the wrong polarity of the wires messed up. I use banana plugs and just wasn’t thinking right when I reconnected the wires back to the plugs. So it reversed the phase and I did t know it. When I don’t run the phase inverted on the BOSS, it totally cancels out all of my TR under about 12hz and under when combined with my other TR components. I scratched my head for about 30 minutes trying to figure out just what in the hell happened to all my 12hz and under TR that I usually have by the truckload. I should have known since I know this is what happens when the phase is not set right, but took me a while to figure out that I messed up the wiring. LOL.

I tell ya though, Folks that say 10-12hz and under is not that important and not worth chasing are dead wrong!!! With BEQ these days making all movie content full band, it felt like a major portion of my bass and TR was missing on some of my favorite demos that’s I’m so fond of and familiar with. Just crazy what those super lows add to the experience!! They are VERY important to say the least 

So anyway, back on track. That gives me one freed up spare BK amp. So not sure what I’m gonna do with my 4 BK LFEs and extra BK amp now. I kind of want to keep them all just in case I ever change my mind and want them for whatever reason or in a future setup or something, since they do still hold a special place in my heart for all the joy they have brought me over the years LOL

Or I could try to sell them all I guess and maybe put that towards a new 4K projector. I’ve already started saving for a new 4 K projector, but need to start looking into what to get and try to educate my self a little bit on the PJ subject. Not sure if I should get another Epson (which I still love my Epson 5030, but probably need get with the times and to go 4k) or a JVC or Sony. Maybe even just go with the Epson 5040 (next step up from mine) for a little cheaper than some of the other 4Ks. Not sure how much I’m wanna spend. Could easily spend 5 grand or more I’m sure if I go to looking into the newest ones.

If anybody sees this, any recommendations on a 4k projector or thoughts are welcomed. 

Ok guys, I now that was a very long winded post, had a lot I wanted to say I guess. Hopefully it didn’t bore you all to tears and the pics helped a little!!


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## Nalleh

^^Alright, update time  Love your updates, i seem to have shorter and more often updates, while you have fewer very long ones, LOL. Awsome 

Well, with all your testing and trying, it sounds like you really have wringed the last drop of performance out of what you have now, and hearing that you are satisfies makes me very happy. The lifted VNF’s is the final icing on the cake, good job 

Again some strange twists appear in that you didn’t like the BK’s anymore. It just proves that not all is set in stone, and needs to be tested.
For me they kind of completes the feeling that the cantilever BOSS starts in that it envelopes the TR trough the whole seat, not just "rear-centered" with just the BOSS.
Didn’t you try them sort of cantilevered? Maybe that is what you need now, since you have the BOSS under your seat. Kind of reverse of what my setup is. IDK.

Anyway if you are happy, that’s what matter, so just enjoy movies man  Really glad to hear the wife is noticing/liking the improvements too, can’t beat that 

Nice to hear you’re saving up to 4K PJ  Can’t give to much advice there, as i still have the "fake" 4K JVC, but these new ones that are out now should be a nice improvement. I am clearly more of a audio guy, so my PJ has been left as is for a long time, so no upgrades planned there for the forseeable future


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## SBuger

Thanks man!

LOL, yeah that’s true in how we seem to update huh! 

Well, it isn’t it that I didn’t like the BKs. It’s just that I liked the feel better without them in the mix. I guess the sub riser has just kind of taken their place for me in a better feeling way. If I were not using the sub riser, then I wouldn’t want to be without them because they can still bring it and do their thing.

Yeah I can see how they probably help balance out the TR in your setup with lots of BOSS cantilever in the back and BKs up front for the most balanced feel. I’m sure it feels amazing in your setup!!

Yep your right, I did try the cantilever with the BKs a while back. In most ways (not all) I did like them better actually. So yeah I may like them better in the mix mounted that way with the sub riser under me now. I’m sure I’ll not sell them and just keep’m around. I may try them that way again at some point.

Yeah I’m the same way with the PJ stuff and haven’t really felt the need yet. It’s always been the audio side first for me as well. Not that I can’t appreciate a great video image. Been super pleased with this 5030 though. But it’s probably time pretty soon to get the 4K going. Depending on how much I have to spend, it may take me a while though. Hell by then, 8k or whatever will probably be the craze LOL


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## trhought

Shelby.....Thanks for the update on your setup and how you're maximizing your full size riser BOSS. 

Pretty cool how you don't have to use isolators underneath it. After seeing your pictures, I'm presuming you have thicker carpet with padding underneath. That's likely providing not only some nice resiliency to the BOSS system but also a nice quasi-seal to provide some "hovercraft" benefits by floating the platform during spirited ULF scenes with the pressure being generated by the JBL's. The more "floaty" the BOSS platform, the more realistic it will feel based on my experiments so far. 

I just posted over in my thread about the untapped potential full size BOSS risers have that haven't been discovered yet. Think of tuning the suspension of an automobile to get an idea....mass, spring, dashpots and pressure underneath the platform created by multiple drivers that can be tuned for maximum floatiness caused by cabinet pressure. Pretty cool to think about but kinda overwhelming when you start to work on tuning such a beast. 

For your setup and some of the ideas you mentioned....I think the only way to add SLAPS is to integrate those with your VNF's and then those VNF's will have to be fastened to your BOSS riser. Reason being, the SLAPS are passive radiators and will work to cancel the moving mass of the JBL's when used together on the same BOSS platform.

For your BK's, I remember you saying you loved them so much with your couch in the living room and that you tried very hard to get that feeling back in your dedicated theater until the BOSS came along. By chance, can they be put back to use in the living room again. Even though it will be casual viewing, I find having some TR outside the theater is a welcome addition for any material, movies or music....just an idea and this may not be an option anymore but wanted to mention.

Enjoy your setup! Sounds like you have it dialed in perfectly and I love how you described it as being "smooth, fluid, powerful and super realistic feeling ULF TR movement" with the VNF's in the mix.....Nice!


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## SBuger

^^ @trhought - Thanks for stopping by and the good words Tim!!

Yeah it sure could be that the carpet and pad help with no isolators. But, it’s not near as ‘floaty/jiggly' as having isolators underneath it and the carpet and pad also smash down pretty good too for a pretty firm surface. I actually kinda like this this. BUT, it still may be just enough give (plus suspended floor) to help with the TR and realistic feel. It could be getting somewhat of a ‘hovercraft’ thing going on like you said as well with the pressure from the drivers etc. But if so, probably not a whole lot because it’s pretty darn heavy with seats and me on it. But heck, just maybe, IDK.

I don’t know for sure exactly what is taking place for me to be loving the TR so much that it's giving (you’d think not much with no isos). All I know is that it feels amazing, doesn’t bottom and digs super deep with a lot of authority. A lot deeper with authority compared to using isos, at least on my riser or risers that i've tried. Plus feels the most natural to me. Kinda strange when you really think about it, because you (and others I believe) said they like the feel better and get better results with ISO’s or even just partial iso on one side like yours. But maybe it really is because of the kind of carpet and pad (or not pad in your case with a lot firmer carpet). But, you may still feel the same way you do about it being better feeling with isos even if you had the same kind of carpet and pad as I do in your room with your setup. 

Part of me thinks that a sealed sub (which is basically what mine is now) just gives a different feel when setting on it with without isos vs with. It may just come down to personal preference and other variables like seating etc. Like Scott Simonians’s sub riser with 2 18’s. I’m almost positive he doesn’t have any isos under his sealed riser and not much carpet and pad, if any under his. And his VS readings of EOT intro look almost identical to mine at reference levels, intensity wise and following the PVA nearly perfectly. Pretty crazy. Not that VS graphs will tell you how the TR will actually feel, but pretty crazy that they read so similar. I’m betting they feel WAY more similar than not though, even though mine is loaded with multiple 12’s and his with 2 18’s. Yes mine is not ‘totally sealed’ since it is using the carpet and pad on the floor to 'seal it' and a few little small gaps here and there with no glue and gasket tape for the driver setc. But close enough to sealed get the same kind of TR effect and even SPL I think.

IDK, maybe I just like the feel of less floatyness for the riser itself. If you remember, I was just blown away by the experiment I did by seting on a sealed 18” cab (one of my newer UM18’s that I recently built before taking them up to my room) with music. Yes same carpet and pad, but over concrete, not suspended flooring like up in my HT room. 

Music felt amazing with a crazy cool connection!! I never did try it with isos though, may have been better, IDK. I do think I’m getting the same kind of feel though from the JBL 12s setting on the floor basically sealing it like a big sub. Just not near as much over 35-40hz since I have it rolled off quite a bit over that point, which seems to feel best in my setup for movies.

But that said, I do still get a little floaty’ness since I’m using 4 ISO’s on the back of my outer seat feet on top of the platform to go in between the MAs on the inner frame seat feet. No isos on the front though. Just the four in the back on top seem perfect and give that little bit smoother ULF TR feel like I was mentioning early. 

I do love the feel of the BOSS (or more of a sub riser I guess I should say) setup like this. But, I really think it’s the combo of this + the MAs + the VNFs that is giving me the overall feel that I’m so thrilled about. They all contribute in a way that add up to something pretty special I think. Take any one of those components out, and it just doesn’t feel as good to me, at least for movies, which is mainly my thing in the HT room up to this point.

What the 3 TR components (BOSS sub riser on floor with no isos under it, MAs on top of platform with 4 isos and VNFs right behind) + the NFs and FF create is just continuing to blow my mind. I feel like I’ve reached a point that I really cant improve upon anymore. To me, it just feels so real and natural, yet so very violent when it needs to be as well, which I crave. Example: This evening even at just -20mv, I ran through one of my favorite demos scenes a couple times of that City Chase chapter in ‘Venom’ BEQed. It’s just nutz in such a cool way!! It’s so darn intense in several areas that it actually feels like it's hurting my insides (I a good way lol) again and again on almost every good bass hit throughout the chapter . LOL, that might not sound like a such a good thing, but I just LOVE this feel and what I’ve been chasing more of for a while now.  I was starting to wonder if I would ever fully get what I was after before I added the BOSS sub riser, but I finally got it I think and a big part of it is do to you and your BOSS idea, even though I’m using my BOSS a little differently than you prescribe. I’ve said it before in your thread, but THANK YOU for sharing your baby with us all!!!

I look forward to more of your experiments and what you find with more full riser testing!! Yep, lots to try and think about with all you said about it. Like you say, lots of untapped potential I think with these full size risers, given their rigidity and size available to work with.

As far as the SLAPS go in my setup if I were to try them, they may or may not work in the way I was thinking. I may be missing something, but I think they should work though since each compartment in my riser (3 of them) is pretty much a sealed 4-5 cuft cab (a bit leaky probably, but close enough) with other drivers in it to create the pressure it needs to power them. Would probably get them SLAPS moving just fine like in a sealed VNF box. I would still feel these (probably more so) just like the JBL 12’s in the sub riser like I’m using now. But yes, if the SLAPS are put in VNFs cab like Nalleh did, it would have to be attached to the riser to get the BOSS effect from it. But they would be in my riser since it's sealed, pumping away just like the JBL 12's.

Anyway, I’m so happy with what I got going now, I don’t know that I’ll even try it. If and when I do, it may work, it may not. But I still think it should.  But if it didn't, wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about something like this LOL

Good idea on my BKs for my couch downstairs if I don't end up maybe trying them one more time with something cantilevered in my HT setup. I LOVED those down things on that couch 

I should probably just leave well enough alone in my setup now though and just enjoy LOL


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## trhought

Hey Shelby.....sounds like you have things dialed in perfectly for your liking based on your Venom Chase Scene feelings described above. That's so cool to have those physical and mental feelings evoked by your ULF TR setup!

I'm going to do a bit more research and hopefully be able to create a parametric model that will allow different full size BOSS riser parameters to be changed and see the overall effect on TR sensitivity. One of those parameters, and maybe the biggest one, is the pressure inside the quasi-sealed BOSS chambers, like you have and like what I had originally before adding isolators to my full size BOSS riser.

Just think about the area underneath your platform....I'm guessing it's probably 8'x4' which is 4,608 sq. inches. Even if the 2 JBL's per chamber is only generating .25 psi, that's 1,152 lbs of force 

That has a potential of certainly floating the platform if the pressure indeed gets that high....it may be very hard to model though because that pressure will start to bleed as soon as the platform starts to lift....we're only talking thousands of an inch displacement but each thousandth of an inch feels pretty incredible when we're talking about ULF TR....especially the single digit ULF TR.

If this theory is true, that may be why I like my full size riser BOSS better with isolators now. Because my 3 JBL's aren't enough to create pressure (14 cu.ft. per JBL) to lift my ~1,800 lb riser fully loaded. But, with the addition of the isolators, it now moves much easier due to the rubber bouncing with the mass of the drivers.....we're only talking movement of thousands of an inch which is pretty small. 

I remember being thrilled when I first put the JBL's into my back riser without any isolators. It was pretty amazing what just adding 3 JBL's did and it felt so natural. Like you said, I was basically sitting on top of my subwoofer and feeling the cabinet (riser) vibrations which was way cool and surprisingly natural feeling for both music and movies. In hindsight, I was probably feeling the cabinet vibrations plus the movement of the platform up and down on the carpet which allows some movement also due to the carpet fibers springiness. Even though it's low pile carpet glued to concrete, it still can allow movement of several thousands of an inch and maybe even tens of thousands of an inch due to its springiness.

But, in my case, the softer rubber, allows more movement than just the cabinet vibrations plus carpet springiness. That's probably why the isolators work so much better for my large (12'x7' platform), which is heavy and large volume (12" high) and only 3 JBL's to create pressure. 

While, in your case, you have a much smaller (8'x4' platform) which is lighter and smaller volume (6" high) with 6 JBL's which may be giving you more TR due to pressure "lift" than you were getting with just rubber isolators bouncing due to the moving mass of the drivers with no lift being generated.

I don't know, it's just a theory at this point, but lift due to pressure is definitely real, especially because we have such large surface areas with these BOSS risers and the TR displacements we're talking about are very very small.

Pretty cool!

For the SLAPS, all I meant was the SLAPS moving mass will be moving the opposite direction of the JBL moving mass when both are mounted together on your BOSS platform in the horizontal plane because the SLAPS are a passive radiator. These opposing forces will tend to cancel each other out if they are equal. But, since the SLAPS have more moving mass than the JBL's, there will be some net force left over favoring the SLAPS but I don't think that left over force will be more than the 2 JBL's by themselves. Example, if the moving mass of 1 SLAPS is 600g and it's moving opposite of the 2 JBL's powering it (358g total), the net force would be 242g in favor of the SLAPS. But, without the SLAPS cancelling the 2 JBL's, the JBL's by themselves will have 358g of moving mass. So, I guess it all depends on how much mass you add to the SLAPS.

Or, you could make your BOSS riser 12" tall like mine and add the JBL's to the front face or back face of the platform and then mount the SLAPS on the top of the BOSS riser where your JBL's are now. This will give you all the moving mass of the SLAPS without any cancellation from the JBL's.  I know, another project.....sorry.  This is AVS though. 

The downside of the 12" high BOSS riser above.....it won't create as much pressure underneath because of the passive radiators reducing the cabinet pressure plus your cabinet volumes will be much larger. So, if lift is indeed what you are enjoying most right now with your setup, that will definitely be reduced by adding the SLAPS....always tradeoffs 

Anyway.....enough of the techno-babble. 

Enjoy your setup! You've certainly earned it through all your experiments and 2 different full-size BOSS platform builds! Those platforms are heavy! 

So glad to hear the BOSS was the foundation that allowed your other TR tools to be combined in reaching your ULF TR goals!

Pretty amazing setup and impressive TR combination wizardry!


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## Nalleh

^^^I tested the SLAPS in forward facing config too, along with 2x JBL:










This moved the box A LOT more than 4xJBL in the same box ever did! During a couple short demo clips it moved the box a good 4 inches and pressed it against the couch !

It was tamed with a big no-slip pad under it 

The increased movement/vibration of the box was also confirmed with VS.


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## trhought

^^^^ Hey Nalleh.....yeah, in the vertical plane like your picture above, you're getting an incredible amount of torque being applied around the base of the VNF box making that box want to walk across the room, maybe even tip over. Especially with the SLAPS being on top of the box. That torque would be smaller if the SLAPS was in the bottom of the box.

In the horizontal plane like Shelby was talking about, unfortunately there won't be any torque advantages...only up and down motion and the masses would work against each other. Using my horizontal configuration example above, the moving mass of one SLAPS would have to equal 716 grams to be equal to 2 of the JBL's after accounting for the mass cancellation because they're working against each other. And, the moving mass of one of the SLAPS would have to be about 1074 grams to deliver the same amount of TR as 4 JBL's....and so on. So, if the mass of the SLAPS can go above 716 grams, then there starts to be some advantage of using 1 SLAPS in combination with 2 JBL's. 

Now consider if the 2 JBL's are placed on the face of the platform instead of the top of the platform. In this case, all 716 grams of SLAPS moving mass on top of the platform will translate to up and down motion instead of just 378 grams.

So, it really depends on goals and how much mass can be added to the SLAPS.


----------



## trhought

BTW.....I noticed no one tried to answer my bonus question I asked the other day in the BOSS thread when I posted the cantilevered vs. normal BOSS diagrams....it has to do with torque like your showing in your picture above, except that torque is applied in the horizontal plane. Pretty cool if one has enough room to do it.


----------



## SBuger

trhought said:


> Hey Shelby.....sounds like you have things dialed in perfectly for your liking based on your Venom Chase Scene feelings described above. That's so cool to have those physical and mental feelings evoked by your ULF TR setup!
> 
> *I'm going to do a bit more research and hopefully be able to create a parametric model that will allow different full size BOSS riser parameters to be changed and see the overall effect on TR sensitivity. One of those parameters, and maybe the biggest one, is the pressure inside the quasi-sealed BOSS chambers, like you have and like what I had originally before adding isolators to my full size BOSS riser.
> 
> Just think about the area underneath your platform....I'm guessing it's probably 8'x4' which is 4,608 sq. inches. Even if the 2 JBL's per chamber is only generating .25 psi, that's 1,152 lbs of force
> 
> That has a potential of certainly floating the platform if the pressure indeed gets that high....it may be very hard to model though because that pressure will start to bleed as soon as the platform starts to lift....we're only talking thousands of an inch displacement but each thousandth of an inch feels pretty incredible when we're talking about ULF TR....especially the single digit ULF TR.
> 
> If this theory is true, that may be why I like my full size riser BOSS better with isolators now. Because my 3 JBL's aren't enough to create pressure (14 cu.ft. per JBL) to lift my ~1,800 lb riser fully loaded. But, with the addition of the isolators, it now moves much easier due to the rubber bouncing with the mass of the drivers.....we're only talking movement of thousands of an inch which is pretty small.
> 
> I remember being thrilled when I first put the JBL's into my back riser without any isolators. It was pretty amazing what just adding 3 JBL's did and it felt so natural. Like you said, I was basically sitting on top of my subwoofer and feeling the cabinet (riser) vibrations which was way cool and surprisingly natural feeling for both music and movies. In hindsight, I was probably feeling the cabinet vibrations plus the movement of the platform up and down on the carpet which allows some movement also due to the carpet fibers springiness. Even though it's low pile carpet glued to concrete, it still can allow movement of several thousands of an inch and maybe even tens of thousands of an inch due to its springiness.
> 
> But, in my case, the softer rubber, allows more movement than just the cabinet vibrations plus carpet springiness. That's probably why the isolators work so much better for my large (12'x7' platform), which is heavy and large volume (12" high) and only 3 JBL's to create pressure.
> 
> While, in your case, you have a much smaller (8'x4' platform) which is lighter and smaller volume (6" high) with 6 JBL's which may be giving you more TR due to pressure "lift" than you were getting with just rubber isolators bouncing due to the moving mass of the drivers with no lift being generated.
> 
> I don't know, it's just a theory at this point, but lift due to pressure is definitely real, especially because we have such large surface areas with these BOSS risers and the TR displacements we're talking about are very very small.
> *
> Pretty cool!
> 
> For the SLAPS, all I meant was the SLAPS moving mass will be moving the opposite direction of the JBL moving mass when both are mounted together on your BOSS platform in the horizontal plane because the SLAPS are a passive radiator. These opposing forces will tend to cancel each other out if they are equal. But, since the SLAPS have more moving mass than the JBL's, there will be some net force left over favoring the SLAPS but I don't think that left over force will be more than the 2 JBL's by themselves. Example, if the moving mass of 1 SLAPS is 600g and it's moving opposite of the 2 JBL's powering it (358g total), the net force would be 242g in favor of the SLAPS. But, without the SLAPS cancelling the 2 JBL's, the JBL's by themselves will have 358g of moving mass. So, I guess it all depends on how much mass you add to the SLAPS.
> 
> Or, you could make your BOSS riser 12" tall like mine and add the JBL's to the front face or back face of the platform and then mount the SLAPS on the top of the BOSS riser where your JBL's are now. This will give you all the moving mass of the SLAPS without any cancellation from the JBL's.  I know, another project.....sorry.  This is AVS though.
> 
> The downside of the 12" high BOSS riser above.....it won't create as much pressure underneath because of the passive radiators reducing the cabinet pressure plus your cabinet volumes will be much larger. So, if lift is indeed what you are enjoying most right now with your setup, that will definitely be reduced by adding the SLAPS....always tradeoffs
> 
> Anyway.....enough of the techno-babble.
> 
> Enjoy your setup! You've certainly earned it through all your experiments and 2 different full-size BOSS platform builds! Those platforms are heavy!
> 
> So glad to hear the BOSS was the foundation that allowed your other TR tools to be combined in reaching your ULF TR goals!
> 
> Pretty amazing setup and impressive TR combination wizardry!


Thanks for the compliments Tim and good post! Some good stuff here. 

When you put it that way about the' hovercraft' effect of maybe just thousands of an inch or so with that much pressure being generated inside the riser, then it sure could be. Yep, my riser is actually a little smaller than 4’ x 8’. I trimmed about 8” off the long side. My seating is only about 30” deep so I made the platform 40” to give me a step up in the front. So 40” x 8’. And I was saying it was heavy too, but really it’s probably not much heavier than one of my seats at 100lbs or so. Maybe a little more, just awkward to move around by ones self. So, fully loaded with 3 seats, especially with just mainly me in the seats (which is most of the time), no where near 1800lbs like yours. Maybe 600lbs at most I’m thinking.

Sounds good on your testing of this in the upcoming future. I hope you find out some good stuff 

About the SLAPS though, you could be right, IDK. But kind of seems strange to me about the orientation you say they need to be in, in order to not cancel with the JBLs. BUT, I’ll be the first to admit, I just don’t know nearly enough about the SLAPS to make any real valid arguments/statements/claims about it. All I know is what Nalleh did in his two different configs with them and the little bit I read about them in the manual.

No biggy though. If I do try one or a few at some point, it may or may not work. Easy and cheap enough to find out though I guess. If I do I'll let you know how it goes 

EDIT: oh yeah, almost forgot. About your question you mentioned up above that you asked in your BOSS thread the other day. Farther out cantilevered should give more torque/leverage is what your getting at right? When I messed with having my BK LFEs mounted cantilever behind my seats there for a while (pre-BOSS), the further out I mounted them, the more leverage they seemed to have.


----------



## trhought

Hey Shelby....yep, you got it. The cantilever effect of moving the JBL's out farther from the back of the chair will increase the forces at the back isolators exponentially. Cool to hear you confirmed this with the BK's long ago.

Mounting the JBL's on the sides as well as on top can excite TR in all 3 axes (X, Y and Z).

TR in the 3 torque axes (yaw, pitch and roll) could also be implemented by using cantilevered BOSS arrangements in their respective planes. As an example, Nalleh excited the pitch axis with his SLAPS VNF pictured above. 

After thinking a bit more about the SLAPS, I'm beginning to think they're probably not the ideal moving mass candidate. Only because they tend to have a very narrow band where they get excited by the drivers they are paired with...usually less than half a octave. I suppose this could be used as an advantage if the riser is tuned appropriately to have the SLAPS start to get excited at frequencies that are desired. Probably not for the feint of heart but they could enhance the BOSS TR for sure just like Nalleh did. 

A parametric BOSS model with all 6 axes plus the "lift" effect due to pressure would be ideal. My theory is the biggest contributor to natural TR will continue to be in the Z-direction and the feeling of floating enhances the natural feeling. By using pressure underneath these large surface areas, the 20-30 durometer floating resistance approaches zero when the platform is lifted...pretty cool. Some initial calculations show the pressures underneath these large risers can easily reach .25 psi with modest drivers like the JBL's....pretty exciting to think of the possibilities.


----------



## Kevnmin

I considered posting this question over in Tim's Boss thread, but thought it might be a bit suited better here from the recent posts here.
I'm contemplating getting a couple of the ButtKickers to add to my platform. 
@SBuger - Can you share more as to why you removed yours from the setup
@Nalleh - In all your testing, you've kept yours. Was it a big enough difference to keep them, or did you keep them just cause you had them?


----------



## SBuger

Kevnmin said:


> I considered posting this question over in Tim's Boss thread, but thought it might be a bit suited better here from the recent posts here.
> I'm contemplating getting a couple of the ButtKickers to add to my platform.
> 
> @SBuger - Can you share more as to why you removed yours from the setup
> 
> @Nalleh - In all your testing, you've kept yours. Was it a big enough difference to keep them, or did you keep them just cause you had them?




Good questions Kev! Just remember you asked for it hahahaha .

First let me say, as you may have already seen from some of my posts over the years that I love the BK LFEs for what they can do in the 12 - 30hz area. This is their wheelhouse of power and where they shine. They can be absolute beasts in this area and really bring on the violence and brutality.

I enjoyed the heck out of them for years, and especially in my previous system on a couch that they worked so well with. On the HT seats that I use now, I enjoy/enjoyed them too, directly mounted to the seat frame or even to the riser platform. Or even cantilevered that I tried out for a while pre-BOSS.

That said, there are two main reasons I have them currently removed from my setup.

*The first reason*, and I really do think it has to do with my particular seating, is that they feel kinda strange below about 15-16hz. It’s hard to explain but I’ll try. It kind of feels like a form of noise mixed with an unnatural weird type of vibration and movement (no it’s not a lube problem) and can sometimes be felt even more so in the leg rests than in the other part of the seating.

Again, I think this is in large part do to my particular seating. They seem to transfer even the smallest nuances of vibration and movement really well. Maybe a little too well in the leg rests.

Also, it could be do to (or partially do to ) boosting super low ULF with the LS’s in the MiniDSP, especially with BEQ for all these these movies to restore the filtered low end ULF (most all movies need this). Even though it’s not boosting the ULF above normal levels and looks just like a native full band track that wasn’t filtered, like “The Incredible Hulk’, for example that doesn’t really need any BEQ at all. You may know all this already from the BEQ thread but thought I would mention it.

^^^ What I’m trying to say here is that it seems like the LS boosts in the mini may be partially the cause of that weird feel below about 15-16hz that I was talking about. I say this because, I don’t feel it that much at all on TIH, which is just loaded with deep ULF content without using a bunch of LS’s in the MiniDSP to restore the low end. But, it is still there a tiny bit if I really pay attention for it.

So IDK what’s going on there for sure. I just know I don’t like it. Maybe it’s a combo of my seating itself, the way they transfer vibrations in these lower frequencies and the LSs in the MiniDSP bringing it out more. I can’t be for sure. But on my seating it’s there and real, and I don’t like it at all. It ruins the realism for me. However, I can roll off the lows hard enough under about 16hz on the BKs, that it no longer becomes a problem, since they then don’t contribute enough in this area to be felt after rolling them off.

That said about the BKs, I don’t get that problem feel at all for the Crowson MAs or BOSS (with isos as prescribed or like I use it with no isos and setting directly on the floor for a subwoofer riser, or my VNFs subs behind me that contribute TR down real low as well.

So, if I don’t run the BKs filtered below about 16hz, it just ruins the realism and smooth powerful ULF TR, especially with BEQ, which almost ALL movies need if you want full band and enjoy ULF TR.

So they can be made to work for me in my setup if I run them a certain way. This problem may be entirety unique for just ‘my’ setup though, as I’ve never heard Nalleh mention any of this with BEQd movies or other.

So if I can make the BKs work with the right settings to roll off the frequencies below 16hz or so , why am I still not running them? This leads me to *the second reason:*

As much as I love the feeling of RAW brutal power that the BKs can dish out in a certain area and the amazing feeling that they can create, so far with the BOSS in the mix, especially with it used as more of a sealed subriser in combo with the Crowson MAs and VNFs, I just find that Im so pleased with the combo without them in the mix, that they don’t seem to make it any better when they ‘are’ in the mix. At least not in the ways that I’ve tried them (position and integration wise). In fact, I think they bring that certain amazing TR feel that I’m loving so much now down a little and do more harm than good, even though they do give me more TR and combine constructively. Again, could still very well be a certain type of integration issue or and or positioning of the BKs in relation to everything else.

So for now, I guess you could say that the BOSS subriser setting on the floor mainly sealed has taken the place of my BKs. It just feels better to me overall TR wise, giving that feeling that I used to love so very much from the the BKs, while giving me some of the best feeling ULF TR, in combination with the MAs, VNFs and NFs, that I’ve ever felt.

That said, if it were not for the BOSS sub riser in my system, I’d definitely still very much feel the need to have the BK LFEs in my system. In fact it would be a must for me. They are still super capable and are that good.

I still may try the BK LFEs one more time mounted in a cantilevered position and filter off the stuff from 16hz and under on them. I’ve tried this before pre-BOSS and I did like the way they felt a little better in most ways vs directly underneath me.

I’m so thrilled with the system now though, that I’m really in no rush to try them out one more time in the cantilevered positioning. But probably still will at some point.

Phew ....that was probably more than you wanted to know, but you asked so thought I would tell. I know some of that may have sounded weird, but it’s what I find to be the case in my system. Hopefully that all made sense.

By no means was any of that meant to discourage you from trying them out on your BOSS platform in addition. They may feel absolutely amazing in every way in your system and you may not ever experience any of what I mentioned under about 16hz. I never did on my previous couch (although I never BEQd back then either). Plus Nalleh hasn’t ever mentioned this and still seems to still LOVE them in his wicked good system!!! And @Nalleh is now 'King TR' after all!!    I know he has some great reasons for keeping them in his system.

Go for it, try them out  It could very well take your TR experience to the next level of awesomeness!!


----------



## trhought

Kevnmin said:


> I considered posting this question over in Tim's Boss thread, but thought it might be a bit suited better here from the recent posts here.
> I'm contemplating getting a couple of the ButtKickers to add to my platform.
> 
> @SBuger - Can you share more as to why you removed yours from the setup
> 
> @Nalleh - In all your testing, you've kept yours. Was it a big enough difference to keep them, or did you keep them just cause you had them?


Hey Kevin....I agree with Shelby's recommendation above....give your BK's a try to know for sure if you like them or not. Will be interesting to see what Nalleh has to share also. 

In addition to Shelby's detailed information above about his setup and experiences, I wanted to share my experiences with both the mini-riser, like yours, Nalleh's and mine in the front row, and a full size riser, like Shelby's and mine in the back row to help give a perspective on what's going on with each of these platforms.

The full size riser is more about utilizing the large mass and area of the full size platforms to deliver the "floating" that makes the BOSS feel so natural and commanding. The large mass works in combination with the "floating" to deliver a dynamic response that's unbelievably realistic. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what makes the full size riser experience so good, but I think most of it has to do with the combo of mass and surface areas that reduces the resistance in floating even more than the isolators by themselves. Shelby also mentioned Scott Simonian's riser from years ago. After studying that riser in the last 24 hours, I believe his setup is also benefiting from the large surface area in combination with the mass. With his setup, it works in reverse though...because his riser is sealed on the bottom, that means all the weight of the riser and everything on top of it gets spread out all over the entire bottom of the riser and the carpet it's resting on. For example, if he has 1,000 lbs of weight on the platform, that gets distributed over 4,600 sq. inches of his cabinet bottom for a very small .21 lb per sq. inch of carpet. So with the carpet only getting loaded by .2 lbs per square inch, it's still very springy and "floaty", much more than the isolators by themselves.

Contrast that with the mini-riser. The mini riser is all about brute force trying to overcome the 20-30 durometer resistance to floating. The more shaker potential you have with mini-risers, the better as long as the platform remains rigid. With mini-risers, there's still lots of bending that's occuring when considering bending in terms of thousands of an inch. For every thousands of an inch lost to bending, that translates to lost TR going to your butt. So, the mini-riser tends to not only benefit from more shaker potential such as BK's but also they tend to tame some of the more violent TR like the BK's are known for because the platform is bending and absorbing a lot of their violence.

So, yeah, at the end of the day, since you have a mini-riser, I would agree with Shelby, try the BK's with your BOSS mini-riser. I think you'll find a position where they will enhance your BOSS experience much like Nalleh did with his BOSS mini-riser.


----------



## Kevnmin

@SBuger & @trhought Thanks for thoughts guys. 

No, no, Shelby you're not discouraging me at all. I just thought it was strange that you've totally set them aside. That earlier pic you had with them sitting on the floor...it must kill you every time you walk by I really appreciate your candor with the reasons, it means a lot to hear from someone like you that can offer an experienced opinion. Like I said I'm oooh so close to pulling the trigger on a couple of them. I'd have to get an amp to drive them as well, but there's a NU6000 listed on the local classifieds I could most likely get for a couple bills.

Today at the local Mom n Pop hardware store I moonlight at, I'm having the guys cut me out a new 5 driver mini riser boss platform. Differences from my existing 4 driver platform is I'm moving all the existing 4 driver positions forward 2" since as I've discovered with my setup, I was getting more 'butt' feel as well as higher VibSensor readings when I was testing bewteen my middle 2 drivers only and outer two drivers. The two inner driver location is placed more forward of front to back center of the platform compared the 2 outside drivers position mounted near the rear of the platform. I even proved the readings with a blind test with the wife. Her response confirmed my thought for needing a change for more TR. This initial config was for clearance with couch frame and existing shakers mounted up the recliner sections. I'd include pics but being at work is not an option at this time.

Anyway, I imagine the reason for improved TR with the forward drivers is more lever action with the further distance from rear isolators thus creating the Y axis movement in addition to the natural Z axis that the BOSS offers. Tim had commented about this, but that was with all drivers going cantilevered to the rear. I don't want to go cantilevered due to WAF, so got to stick with the space underneath as it exists.

Okay, so back to the new platform, the bonus with moving drivers forward and adding another 1" inch to the width of the platform gave me room to add a 5th driver. 
It'll be in dead center side to side of the platform and the very rear of the platform. Not the best, but hey, the opportunity for another JBL... Hell yeah, more TR I figure.
Here I am getting carried away and rambling. The real meat of the story is making the side to side platform bigger on the new platform by an inch on either side to allow for future BK's. My original thinking with current results is telling me I should mount them to the platform on the two front outside corners. But now after reading Tim's comment about the BK's moving/bending I may be better off with a different mounting location for the BK's.

Thanks again for responding and listening to my long ramblings. I'm soo soo hooked.

I'll get pics of the new platform. Guess I really should start my own thread.


----------



## Nalleh

Kevnmin said:


> I considered posting this question over in Tim's Boss thread, but thought it might be a bit suited better here from the recent posts here.
> I'm contemplating getting a couple of the ButtKickers to add to my platform.
> 
> @SBuger - Can you share more as to why you removed yours from the setup
> 
> @Nalleh - In all your testing, you've kept yours. Was it a big enough difference to keep them, or did you keep them just cause you had them?


Yeah, i just love the BK’s !! Simple as that 

It is as Shelby is saying at the start: they are so violent and brutal , they can truly shake you silly. Even with all the rest of my setup, they can still do that, however keep in mind i have 2 per seat.
For example if i play with just my BOSS on, it feels awsome and as it should, very balanced and immersive, but if i then unmute the BK’s , the whole feeling just get more complete, and more in the whole seat, armrest, footrest, back, headrest... all over. And compared to the BOSS, it still is more brutal, while the BOSS is more "mellow".
The point is setup, it they don’t work together, it can feel wrong, and i think i found a setup for it all to work good together.
However i tried the BK’s earlier at each end of the couch, and i now have them under each seat, and MUCH prefer them under the seat. It didn’t feel right on each end.


----------



## Kevnmin

A couple BK's are on tap for sure in my setup. Back to the amp I mentioned earlier, turns out I missed the opportunity to pick up that used NU6000. I look at that as maybe a good thing as I think I'd be better off in the end with the DSP model. Question for both you @Nalleh & @SBuger - If I were to get the inuke 3000d, and run 2 BK's in series to get a 2 ohm load, would the rated 1500 [email protected] 2 ohms on one channel be sufficient to run them. I'd like to use the other channel for the JBL's in the BOSS.

Edit:
Another couple questions, I've been looking online at Parts Express for BK's and the Behringer. Any other outlets I should look into? Further down the future road when I move up to Crowson's, where/who peddles those?


----------



## SBuger

Kevnmin said:


> @SBuger & @trhought Thanks for thoughts guys.
> 
> No, no, Shelby you're not discouraging me at all. I just thought it was strange that you've totally set them aside. That earlier pic you had with them sitting on the floor...it must kill you every time you walk by I really appreciate your candor with the reasons, it means a lot to hear from someone like you that can offer an experienced opinion. Like I said I'm oooh so close to pulling the trigger on a couple of them. I'd have to get an amp to drive them as well, but there's a NU6000 listed on the local classifieds I could most likely get for a couple bills.
> 
> Today at the local Mom n Pop hardware store I moonlight at, I'm having the guys cut me out a new 5 driver mini riser boss platform. Differences from my existing 4 driver platform is I'm moving all the existing 4 driver positions forward 2" since as I've discovered with my setup, I was getting more 'butt' feel as well as higher VibSensor readings when I was testing bewteen my middle 2 drivers only and outer two drivers. The two inner driver location is placed more forward of front to back center of the platform compared the 2 outside drivers position mounted near the rear of the platform. I even proved the readings with a blind test with the wife. Her response confirmed my thought for needing a change for more TR. This initial config was for clearance with couch frame and existing shakers mounted up the recliner sections. I'd include pics but being at work is not an option at this time.
> 
> Anyway, I imagine the reason for improved TR with the forward drivers is more lever action with the further distance from rear isolators thus creating the Y axis movement in addition to the natural Z axis that the BOSS offers. Tim had commented about this, but that was with all drivers going cantilevered to the rear. I don't want to go cantilevered due to WAF, so got to stick with the space underneath as it exists.
> 
> Okay, so back to the new platform, the bonus with moving drivers forward and adding another 1" inch to the width of the platform gave me room to add a 5th driver.
> It'll be in dead center side to side of the platform and the very rear of the platform. Not the best, but hey, the opportunity for another JBL... Hell yeah, more TR I figure.
> Here I am getting carried away and rambling. The real meat of the story is making the side to side platform bigger on the new platform by an inch on either side to allow for future BK's. My original thinking with current results is telling me I should mount them to the platform on the two front outside corners. But now after reading Tim's comment about the BK's moving/bending I may be better off with a different mounting location for the BK's.
> 
> Thanks again for responding and listening to my long ramblings. I'm soo soo hooked.
> 
> I'll get pics of the new platform. Guess I really should start my own thread.





Kevnmin said:


> A couple BK's are on tap for sure in my setup. Back to the amp I mentioned earlier, turns out I missed the opportunity to pick up that used NU6000. I look at that as maybe a good thing as I think I'd be better off in the end with the DSP model. Question for both you @Nalleh & @SBuger - If I were to get the inuke 3000d, and run 2 BK's in series to get a 2 ohm load, would the rated 1500 [email protected] 2 ohms on one channel be sufficient to run them. I'd like to use the other channel for the JBL's in the BOSS.
> 
> Edit:
> Another couple questions, I've been looking online at Parts Express for BK's and the Behringer. Any other outlets I should look into? Further down the future road when I move up to Crowson's, where/who peddles those?


No prob man.

LOL, well it was kinda weird at first seeing the BKs setting there since they been in my system for so long, and is what made me try them again last week to make sure. Now they are back setting there again lol. They’ll get one more try in the cantilevered position at some point I guess.

Cool that your gong to try them and also putting a 5th JBL in your platform, as well as the driver positioning. Yep, gotta go with what feels best, whether it ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’ feel better.

I think out of all the platforms I’ve tried (4-5 I think) with drivers in just s little diff spot each time as well as adding 3 more to the 3 I already had, they each felt a little different. The BKs mounted in diff area will probably feel differ as well, at least somewhat.

Heck even reclining about an inch more in my seats feels different. Better actually, In most ways at least. I used to recline about an inch from full (I just keep my seats like this in my room and works great). I moved them to full recline a coupe days ago, and by golly of if it didn’t give me more that certain violent feel that I love. I was thinking that adding the BKs back in would have done lol, but nope. Maybe being reclined further is the key, for them as well in my setup.

Pretty crazy how just seat and body positioning in relation to the drivers in the BOSS (or any TR device actually) can really effect how the TR feels.

So yeah, try different things if you can, it may make a little or a big difference. Sometimes the littlest changed can feel huge too.

Also, your welcome to post a pic or whatever, but yeah having a thread dedicated for all this stuff is fun too  

Yep, your hooked I think! Look out, it’ll can completely take over you if your not careful  LOL 

As far as the 3k Inuke amp goes and powering them for what watts in series, Nalleh is way better at all that than me. I managed to get all my components with the BK and 6k Inukes amps wired for what I needed, but I’m no expert on the wiring, especially on the 3k Inuke.

Also, as far as good places to get them, I've got all my BKs from amazon in the past at pretty decent pricing.


----------



## Nalleh

Kevnmin said:


> A couple BK's are on tap for sure in my setup. Back to the amp I mentioned earlier, turns out I missed the opportunity to pick up that used NU6000. I look at that as maybe a good thing as I think I'd be better off in the end with the DSP model. Question for both you @Nalleh & @SBuger - If I were to get the inuke 3000d, and run 2 BK's in series to get a 2 ohm load, would the rated 1500 [email protected] 2 ohms on one channel be sufficient to run them. I'd like to use the other channel for the JBL's in the BOSS.
> 
> Edit:
> Another couple questions, I've been looking online at Parts Express for BK's and the Behringer. Any other outlets I should look into? Further down the future road when I move up to Crowson's, where/who peddles those?



Sure the NU3K would work fine  But to get 2ohm, you need to connect in parallel, not series(8ohm).

Agree with Shelby, i used Amazon for the BK’s. For the Crowson, use their own website, send a mail to Randolph(the owner), and don’t forget to mention being a AVS member to get 10% discount


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## SBuger

*TR update:*

Ok, so I had more time than usual today so I thought I’d try my BK LFEs one more time, but this time cantilevered.

_Short version:_ YES .....OMFG!!!!!!!!       

_Long version:_ Gosh oh mighty, I can’t even believe the difference it made!! I knew they should be able to, but they just didn’t help in the right way the handful of times I tried them previously bolted under my seat (or even to the platform (on top or under)) in combo with the BOSS/subriser + MAs + VNFs.

I think the KEY was since my BOSS drivers are under me and part of them even a little to the front (front 3 JBLs under the front part of the seating), the other 3 JBLs under my butt/body (Crowson MAs too), the BK LFEs mounted behind me now cantilevered just totally balances it all out.

Plus my seating reclined all the way helped as well I think, as it made the boss subriser + MAs+ VNF subs together as a combo feel better too.

So now if I mute the BKs in the mix, it feels a bit font heavy, and just not nearly as violent. @Nalleh - I see what you were saying now when you said it happens to you too if you mute one component.

So that’s cool for balancing it out more. But what I love most is the sheer violence the BK LFEs bring to the mix. This is what I have always loved about them over the years and knew they should still be able to bring that with the new BOSS config. It just took me a while to find the right place for them I guess. 

I was thrilled wit the TR before in my last update without the BKs in the mix, but wow did adding them in this time in the cantilevered position ever make one hell of a difference!! I mean like MASSIVE!! In fact I’d goes as far as saying it’s bordering on too much, even for this ole TR junkie (I sometimes have a hard time getting enough) LOL

With the BKs in the mix now, the TR feels like it can shake my darn fillings out and even makes it hard to focus on the screen sometimes when things get crazy . I love the extreme aggression, but is almost absurd at times ROFL. I guess i can always back it back down, but just feels so right  hahahaha I think what I love most though is the intensity it brings that can really be felt internally as well, not just more shake. This is what I’ve been trying to get out of them in conjunction with the new BOSS/subriser config. WooHoo, I think I finally hit the jackpot . If it didn’t work this last time around, I think I was about ready to throw in the towel on them. So glad they worked out this time!!

Here’s a pick of two of them mounted on the middle MLP seat. One behind each arm rest connected directly to the seating, not the subriser. I don’t have the other BKs mounted yet to the outside seats, but will get it done hopefully in the near future. I may need another amp as well to power them. Also in the photos, the VNFs are back on the ground, but i did get them raised back up.

Middle MLP seat with a BK LFE on each side of the VNF sub and behind each armrest ...



























You can kind of see the isolator back in there and the two Crowson MAs as well ..









They just seem to work so well like this cantilevered, which is sooooooo cool and what i was really hoping for.

But there are a few downsides. Downsides so far: Noise. The BKs themselves and some other rattles and stuff with the seats. Will have to look into that with the seats. For starters I may need to go back to fastening my seats back together. The outside seats are fairly light with only one armrest and they are getting the crap shook out of them with nobody in them.

But also, the BKs themselves are making noise. Not bottoming, but just making noise, especially on the lower frequencies. This is just what BKs do when they are pushed hard. I had them mounted under the sub riser at one point and since I have the floor sealing the bottom of the riser, it totally silenced them with them being inside. That or when I didn’t have them I the mix, not being able to hear them spoiled me. Now on certain scenes sometimes, especially on low LF and ULF, I can hear them and I don’t like it.

I need to build some sort of hush box for them I guess. @Nalleh - I remember you talking about doing the same thing a while back. Did you ever do this or have plans to do so?

Anyway, super cool to have the BK LFEs back in the mix doing what I knew they could do!!    I just don’t think the BKs can be beat for their raw brutality and violent feel they bring (in their wheelhouse of power region). Combined with the MAs, BOSS subriser and VNFs, they are back to doing their thing again in my system. Has me all giddy again!!! LOL. I watched parts of Aquaman and a few others with the BKs back I the mix, and dayum!!!  

Latest settings with all in the mix are:

MAs: Negative HS at 30hz/-10db/Q0.9
BOSS sub riser: Negative HS at 40hz/-10db/Q0.9
BK LFEs: Negative HS at 45hz/-10db/Q0.9

With the BKs in the mix, I had to adjust the BOSS sub riser a bit on the HS and levels.

No VS measurements yet. I may post some, but I may not even mess with it ether since it just feels so right. I may VS a scene or too at some point, IDK.

@Kevnmin - did you ever get your BK LFEs mounted to your BOSS platform?

As far as other stuff goes, I think I’m fixing to order a new projector so I can do the 4K and HDR stuff. I’m pretty exited about it


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## Nalleh

YES! YES! YES! Awsome, awsome, awsome!!!

This was exactly what i was hoping the BK’s would do for you, and why i wanted you to try one more option  I am thrilled it worked out. The balancing out and the sheer brutality of the BK’s in the mix was the pros i wanted you to try out 

Yes, now you really have it all  So cool to hear it could add anything to your already insane setup. "Only" 3 TR components did sound a little puny to me, LOL 

Also, monting them on just the seats, not the whole plattform was clever, since you now have the plattfrom on the floor. That would make it more difficult for the BK’s to shake the whole thing, good work my friend 

You should try the "vibrating voice" trick by trying to talk the next time you play some heavy demo clip, LOL, it is hilarious !

And yes i agree, the BK’s sheer brutality really does seem to be able to shake your fillings out, LOOL! Non of my other TR components has that capability, and is why the BK’s will stay in my setup, no matter that 

Yeah, the noise of the BK’s is a con indeed, but somehow i have not notice this lately. Actually since mounting them on my TR Sleds it hasn’t been a problem. But i was thinking of just building a square box out of MDF slightly bigger than the BK’s and put over them. Even under spirited movie waching, they don’t seem to get even slightly warm, so i don’t expect temperatures to be a problem. And if not enough, try putting some insulation in the box too.

But like i said, it hasn’t been a problem lately, the two other noise problems i mentioned in my thread is far bigger issues, and even they are no biggies  I have been far to busy watching movie to care, LOL.

Anyway, so cool to heard that the BK’s are in the mix again, awsome that you figured it out, i knew you would, and also exciting about your 4K projector plans, that will be the icing on the cake, for sure


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## Kevnmin

@SBuger, I'm ecstatic to hear you've been able to get the BK's back into the mix! Your short version response... 
I really dig the positioning you've done just slightly cantilevered out the back that way. It gives way to something that might work with my setup once I get them. I'm probably two to three months more of penny pinching to get them.

I'm actually home today and have been doing some couch repair as well as getting ready to cut holes in my new 6 driver platform. I'm also adding a 3rd Aura Shaker. The wife and I sat down last Friday night to watch Star Wars The Force Awakens and loved the BEQ and all the wobble- and the eerie ULF dead silence during the chase that Nalleh commented on. Needless to say the shaker that sits under the wife was clanging at a couple points. I'm glad Aaron re-did the graph in the BEQ thread so I was able to see what the problem frequency was with correlation to time stamp. It was the spike at 35 hz area going above the -15 db on the graph somewhere around 1:09 or 1:19. I've had this problem before with that particular shaker, so quick remedy was to buy a replacement. While waiting for delivery I started thinking, why not move the bad shaker to middle couch position and turn down the level to just that one. So here I am, just like everyone else, chasing more and more TR.

What can I say for today - a day off from work to stay home to play with speakers, it's better than fireworks on the 4th of July. I'll send pics later on today as get things accomplished and put together.


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## Nalleh

Kevnmin said:


> The wife and I sat down last Friday night to watch Star Wars The Force Awakens and loved the BEQ and all the wobble- and the eerie ULF dead silence during the chase that Nalleh commented on.


Awsome that you noticed the eeire ULF silence too, i was wondering if it was just in my setup, but glad to hear others can enjoy it too. Love that movie, and have since watched both Rogue One and Han Solo. RO wasn’t as good IMO(but still awsome), but HS was up there with TFA again.

Why? RO did not have the Millenium Falcon in it  And as we all know, Millenium Falcon rules  After all, it did the Kessel run in 12 parsec


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## SBuger

Hey thanks a lot guys!! 

@Nalleh - yeah the voice thing is pretty darn funny huh!!

Cool that you don’t really notice the noise from the BKs anymore. With them under seats like you have them, I didn’t really notice them either in the past. Now with them on the outside, I do but only seems to be the real low stuff if nothing much else is going on in the soundtrack, whereas the MAs and subrisiser seem silent while delivering, and I've gotten used to that. Not a biggy though, I may mess with a hush box at some point. Not too worried about it ATM though. Just another thing that needs done at some point  

Yeah the BKs just don’t seem to get hot at all which is way cool!!! Back in my previous system when I pushed them crazy hard all the time, they didn’t seem to get hot at all, while my MAs were going into protect mode quite often. 

Yeah I'm pretty excited about a projector that will do 4k. Well fake 4k and HDR. I think I've just about decided to get the 5040 refurb for a hair over a grand. I just cant seem to pass it up and don't really want to spend 4-5k on a JVC eshift fake 4k either (even though I'm sure they are amazing like yours and Pio's), or around 5-6k or more for true 4k just yet. If I'm gonna spend that much, I wanna get true 4 k I'm thinking. But, for now I think the 5040 with eshift will get me by just fine for a year or two, or more until the true 4K's come down in price some, or spend that higher amount for the newer latest PJs when that time comes. Still super excited about the eshift 5040 though. I think I'll love it since I seem to love my 5030 so much. Yeah not as good of black levels as the JVCs I read about, but good enough for now for that price. That and I seem to love the bright images these epson can dish out. I'll need all I can get for HDR is sounds like.

@Kevnmin - Cool about the future BKs as a possible cantilevered mount. Also way cool about 6 drivers now!! It should really add to the low end even more 

Yep, TFA is my que to watch again, I love that one!!

Nice way to spend the day off too with the system!! I could do it 24/7 if I could get away with it LOL


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## Nalleh

Actually the new JVC’s are no longer faux 4K, they are native 4K 

Lot of info in the first post here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-d...0-nx7-n7-jvc-rs1000-nx5-n5-owners-thread.html

The top model even has faux 8K, using E-shift to step it up even further


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## SBuger

^^ Hey there Nalleh! How’s the vaca going?

Thanks for the link and heads up on those projectors!! Yeah, I’ve been eying those and reading up on them. Would LOVE to have one!!!!! I think I’ll be saving for one of them and maybe buy the NX7/RS2000 in the future (a couple of years maybe). NX5 would be great too I’m sure and of course the NX9 the best. That mid tier would probably be my choice but 7-8 grand is too much to spend right now. So will save and give me something to look forward to 

But in the meantime, I went a head a bought a 5040 refrub for cheap and WOW, super impressed with it so far!!!! I got it in the other day so haven’t had time to mess with it a lot yet, but it’s a huge step above my 5030, especially on the HDR stuff, which is mainly why I got it. With some tweaked settings (I’m just starting to try some of the suggested settings from the 5040 thread), its looking pretty darn amazing to my untrained eyes. The HarperVision impressed the heck out of me the other night on HDR material. Looks super sharp too, even with the eshift faux 4k. Can only imagine how sharp the true 4k would be. I do love a sharp image!!! With the HV settings, the black levels looked pretty killer too which was way cool!! Not JVC killer I’m sure, but man I was impressed for sure!!

So YAY!!!!      Pretty exciting and didn’t have to spend much to get it, which is what I needed for now. Will hold me over real nice I think until I can get a true 4K in the future. Also ordered an Xbox One X (hasn't got here yet) as well for Netflix streaming to get Atmos, plus some games. Ordered 4, both Tomb Raiders, Forza 4 and Gears of War 4 for 4K and Atmos. Can hardly wait!!!! LOL. Rise of the Tomb raider looks awesome from the reviews I checked out and sooooo looking forward to playing it!!!!!  I used to game a lot on the PC back in the Quake days, so this ought to be fun. Hopefully it doesn’t totally take over me though, like I need another thing other than movies hahahahaha 

Speaking of movies, I watched the trailer for Alita Battle Angle the other day. I’m thinking this one is gonna be so cool in lot of ways. Really looking forward to getting this one!!


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## Nalleh

I am enjoying my vaca and missing my HT, LOL.

You got the 5040 already? Wow, you don’t dilly dally around, do you huh??

Awsome, and that should bring you up to speed on all aspects of home theater! With your insane sound setup and now HDR, it should be a blast watching movies 
And awsome about the Xbox too, Netflix in 4K HDR can be pretty incredible too, try out Altered Carbon! it is extremely cool in HDR 

Yeah, i am really looking forward to Alita  Can’t wait to watch Shazam too, it got great review from Ralph the other day.

Good times


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## Kevnmin

SBuger said:


> ..... @Kevnmin - Cool about the future BKs as a possible cantilevered mount. Also way cool about 6 drivers now!! It should really add to the low end even more


Got the 6 driver platform done and hooked up finally yesterday. Here's a couple pics. I wish I'd a taken a pic before I flipped the couch back on top. Oh well. I also added a 3rd Aura shaker to my center section of the couch as well. Not much time last night after finally getting it all hooked up to really watch anything other than a few clips. The TR is certainly more pronounced feeling, a bit harder is the best way to explain. 
In the coming days I'll run some VS charts to see where I am now compared to where I was with the 4 driver and 2 shakers.

Oh, get this.... So today being Amazon Prime day, I thought I'd check BB to see if the JBL's are on sale, and sure enough they are. So what did I do, I bought another pair.... I Bet you can guess what's coming next.


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> I am enjoying my vaca and missing my HT, LOL.
> 
> You got the 5040 already? Wow, you don’t dilly dally around, do you huh??
> 
> Awsome, and that should bring you up to speed on all aspects of home theater! With your insane sound setup and now HDR, it should be a blast watching movies
> And awsome about the Xbox too, Netflix in 4K HDR can be pretty incredible too, try out Altered Carbon! it is extremely cool in HDR
> 
> Yeah, i am really looking forward to Alita  Can’t wait to watch Shazam too, it got great review from Ralph the other day.
> 
> Good times


You’ll be back to the HT before you know it  Glad to hear your enjoying the vaca though!

LOL yeah, I didn’t mess around too long once I started thinking about  Did my reading up on it all and thinking it over on our last little get away over the 4th of July, then ordered almost as soon as I got home. I almost ordered it sooner but thought I’d think it over a bit more on that trip.

Thanks man, yeah, I think I’m pretty much up to speed on everything now with the HT which feels nice. Now just a few more things to fiddle with and figure out with the new PJ and Xbox , then just really looking forward to enjoying it all (which I’ve already done a fair amount of over the last 2-3 weeks prior to the new PJ). Loads of movies I’ve haven’t seen yet to just get lost in and have fun with, plus the new gaming stuff that I’m super excited to check out. Oh yeah, plus all the Netflix shows too. I may have a hard time getting it all watched LOL. I see a bunch of cool looking shows from Netflix and amazon that keep popping up recently in the BEQ thread that I want to watch that just keeps adding to the list. That streaming section is getting pretty big in that area over in the BEQ thread huh! Pretty darn cool! And yep, Altered Carbon is one of them  Awesome to hear you thought it was so cool. 

Yep, good times


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## SBuger

Kevnmin said:


> Got the 6 driver platform done and hooked up finally yesterday. Here's a couple pics. I wish I'd a taken a pic before I flipped the couch back on top. Oh well. I also added a 3rd Aura shaker to my center section of the couch as well. Not much time last night after finally getting it all hooked up to really watch anything other than a few clips. The TR is certainly more pronounced feeling, a bit harder is the best way to explain.
> In the coming days I'll run some VS charts to see where I am now compared to where I was with the 4 driver and 2 shakers.
> 
> Oh, get this.... So today being Amazon Prime day, I thought I'd check BB to see if the JBL's are on sale, and sure enough they are. So what did I do, I bought another pair.... I Bet you can guess what's coming next.


Ahhhh, Nice!!!!!!!! Looks great and sounds like the TR is great too!!!

Oh dang, LOL, yep I have a good idea what coming next with another pair of drivers  Once you start and get a taste of it, its hard to stop huh!!!


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## Kevnmin

SBuger said:


> Ahhhh, Nice!!!!!!!! Looks great and sounds like the TR is great too!!!
> 
> Oh dang, LOL, yep I have a good idea what coming next with another pair of drivers  Once you start and get a taste of it, its hard to stop huh!!!


LOL  - The addiction and want for more is worse than a drug addiction... Ah, but the chase for more is always fun. :laugh:


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## SBuger

Lots of new HT goodies coming very soon with an update ....stay tuned


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## Sekosche

SBuger said:


> Lots of new HT goodies coming very soon with an update ....stay tuned




Oooh, new PJ and...?!


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## SBuger

*Update time: New 4K projector and other HT goodies!!!* 

So, it was time to upgrade projectors. I loved my previous Epson 5030 and got tons of great use out of it in my previous setup downstairs and up in the new HT room also. But with so much stuff in HDR and 4K now, I wanted in on it. And since everything else in the HT room is pretty much done now, it was time!!

I didn’t have 6-8K or more to spend on the newest True 4K JVC projectors, so for now I just couldn’t pass up the Epson 5040 refurbished unit for super cheap (as far as 4K projectors go ..or faux 4K I guess I should say). And for $1150 I must say; I AM TOTALLY BLOWN AWAY by the image on this thing. This beast can throw a super bright, punchy and ultra-sharp image which really suits my tastes! Black levels seem pretty killer to me as well. Not as good of black levels as the JVC’s I’m sure, but man I’m super impressed with them. This projector is a pretty major step up for me from my 5030. For the price, I just don’t think I could be much happier!!!!!!!

That said, I found out for HDR to look great, HDR material is not just plug and play. Holy Crap man, normal settings just don’t cut it. Even with a light canon PJ like this thing is, without some gamma tweaks and tricks, most HDR images are just too damn dark and dull. At least for my tastes and from all the reading I’ve done, sounds like for it is for a lot of other folks too, even with most JVC etc without some custom gamma tweaks and or a Panny UB820 or UB9000 with the HDR slider and all the other HDR controls it allows for.

I don’t have one of those and just have the Oppo 203 (which doesn’t have any of that), so I had to find some settings that brings out the brightness, punch and ‘pop’ for the HDR stuff. I had no idea what I was getting into with HDR and has been quite the learning curve with it all in how to deal with HDR and get it to come alive. But with a lot of reading and trial and error, I think I’ve finally settled in on some settings that thrills me!! This past week, HDR images have just been jaw dropping to me, and really does make for an even better Home Theater experience.

I took a few still frame shots over the last couple od days so I would have something to post and try to show what these HDR images look like with a few movies and games (yes, I picked up an Xbox One X too to start playing games as well ). So here are a few shots from Alita (I LOVED this movie!!!), Aquaman and Rise of The Tomb Raider game on the Xbox. These pics don’t do the real image justice, as sometimes the iphone7 doesn’t always capture all the shadow detail and highlights like it really looks. But I think they still look pretty decent and will give you an idea. If I had to choose, Id rather have an image that looks better in real life than in pictures, so all is good LOL 

A few shots of ALITA …

I love the purples in this image









Love the colors in the sweater in this one









Here is a little better close up of that one. It looks sharper than this in person, as when I press pause on my player, the image loses some sharpness vs when its playing. That’s ok though for these pics. The sharpness is one of the things I love so much about this projector though. I’m still blown away by what e-shift can do, even though it’s still only half the pixels as true 4K. I can only image what true 4K would be like









Another random Alita shot. I love this movie!!! And the Bass and Atmos ....dayum!!! 









Here’s a few from Aquaman. Who doesn’t love a hot red head right!!??  Speaking of that hair, I LOVE the vividness of it. That red hair looks pretty insane and just so vibrant setting in front of the PJ for reals. The 16:9 aspect is freaking cool too when it changes aspects and makes the image so engulfing setting this close. Also speaking of, I moved up just a hair closer too since the image is so much sharper now. I think I’m at about 6’ 8” eyes from screen now instead of 7’. Made a real nice diff and even more immersion than before. Maybe I’m just getting used to it now and needed to be closer for that wow factor hahahaha





































Ok, now for some Xbox One X game pics. Fist just let me say, I’m just in ABSOLUTE AWE at how gorgeous and how realistic these games are on the Xbox and big screen. Take this one ‘Rise of the Tomb Raider’ for example. Setting this close to a 16:9 120” full screen image makes me feel I’m like seriously in the game and in those caverns etc..  The pics don’t even begin to show the super enveloping feel it gives. Combined with the sound, it’s even pretty spooky at times in such an awesome way!! I’m pretty darn addicted to it already, as if I needed another way to burn times other than movies LOL

Here’s a few shots of Rise of the Tomb Raider


















A few close-up shots



























That game is just insanely cool in so many ways!! I suck at it and haven’t learned all the needed skills yet, but I’ve just been enjoying running around some of these maps just checking out all the eye candy and sounds and slowly making my way through. It just totally transports me into its world. Friggin AMAZING and didn’t know it could be this cool!!!!!

I picked up 4 games (Forza Horizon 4, Gears of War 4, and both Tomb Raiders). So far though I’ve only checked out Forza and Rise of the Tomb Raider. I’ve just been so impressed with it!!!! Can’t wait to check out GOW!!

Oh yeah, daughter seems to love it too. Well, Tomb raider is a bit too scary at times for her I think, but she LOVES Forza. I even had to buy her her own pink controller LOL









Ok enough about all that. Here’s a few more pics of goodies









And then the new Projector. White just like my other Epson (ridiculous, damn thing needs to be black). That ok, I just put a piece of black velvet in front of it, so it doesn’t reflect light back to the screen.









Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I picked up an Apple TV too so I can stream Netflix and prime in Atmos. I could have just used my Xbox I guess and still may but wanted to check out Apple TV. @Nalleh has both, so hey why can’t I!? Hahaha, there you goes again influencing me!!  Hell yeah brother!!  

I haven’t even had the time to get it out of its box and hooked up yet though with all the other goodies that I’ve been so wrapped up in. Looking forward to it though and watching some of those great Netflix movies they have listed over in the BEQ thread  









Ok so, what else is new??? This post just wouldn’t be complete without some TR and bass talk right!!??  Well, I know I said I was about done tweaking it, but you know how that goes right. I just couldn’t help myself hahahaha!!!! Who am I kidding, I just love tweaking sometimes I think and is part of the fun. I’ve even really enjoyed tweaking on my image on the new PJ to try to squeeze ever last drop of awesomeness out of the HDR stuff LOL

So what tweaks am I taking about? Well, for starters, I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I moved my BK LFEs back to underneath my butt area of my seat. Occasionally I could localize them mounted cantilevered. It was still fantastic but wanted to try them one more time directly mounted to my seating the way I use to do it. It’s a pretty quick change out, so no biggy. 

This time around, something changed, and I think mainly it was inverting the BKs phase. I could have sworn I did that before, but hell, maybe not. Anyway, I remember Nalleh inverting his as well and got better results when combined with all his other TR components as a whole. Well hot damn, it works and works great. So, there is that and are not localizable at all anymore, which is just way cool, plus they feel amazing in the mix mounted under me in my seat again. 

But the real Kicker (haha) is what I discovered next that make one HELL of a difference in the BKs feel for the better. I’m talking like a serious difference here in precision, sharpness of attack and just overall way more mean feeling!!! It seems like when you get things really dialed in, it’s hard to improve upon much further sometimes. Most of the time little improvements is all we can hope for at this point (if you enjoy tinkering or want/need more performance) to extract every last drop of performance out of tour system for the absolute best experience possible. Well this time, it helped more than just a little. Surprised the crap out of me. But now that I think about, it shouldn’t have, because I used to do this with the BKs. 

OK, so what the hell am I talking about here? I ran the BK LFEs back through my Oppo Subout like I used to do. I **** you not, they feel WAY better like I was trying to describe above!!!! I don’t know how, but its true. I don’t think the timing was off really at all with the other TR components before when ran through the AVR. But now through the Oppo , they just feel faster, sharper, cleaner, more vicious, etc. You name it, it just feels better. 

I can’t explain it really why, but I’ll damn sure take it!!! @Nalleh – give this a shot just to see if it does the same for you (it’s easy to do to test it out) when you get a chance. It may work as good in your system as it does for mine, even though I know you love them the way you have them setup through the AVR. I did too, but it’s so much better setup this way in my system vs through the AVR that it’s not even funny. Yes there are some down sides like when streaming Netflix through the ATV or even Xbox, the BKS are not connected, but easy enough to switch right quick with the mini10x10 with one click of a button to route them back through the AVR for those times and is what I’ll do for Xbox and Netflix. But for movie ‘movies’ that go through my Oppo, this is most definitely the way to go for me to get the absolute best feel out of them. Movies through the Oppo is the most important to me anyway and will always take priority. If the other stuff isn’t quite as good, I’m ok with that. 

One thing I will say about it though, is that I used to prefer the BKs ran through the Oppo vs the AVR and I experienced the same kind of thing actually when I had my system setup downstairs.
This time around, I think I had something going on with my projector and I needed about 140ms delay set in the Oppo to get lip sync correct (weird I know, but I tried everything else I could think of to no avail). This made it where I could not get the timing right at all with the other TR components ran thorough the AVR, and thus were fighting each other. Now with the new PJ I have the Oppo voice sync delay set back to 0ms (well actually -10ms) and seems spot on. So now with that, I set the delay on the Oppo subout on to 24ms ( to match negative delay for my other TR components through the AVR). 

These settings just seem to be magic for the BKs in the mix. , I just can’t even believe what it did for feel, and I thought it was fantastic the other way. Like I was saying, I can’t really explain why it feels so much better, but it does. It may be worth a shot to check @Nalleh just to see, or anyone else with BK LFEs that runs an Oppo player. I know the bass and TR in your system is about as good as one can get, but ya never know, this may take it up yet another notch or two. If not, who cares. It’s easy enough to try if you haven’t already. 

So with all that said the about latest tweaks with the BKs, man my bass and TR has never quite been to this level. I just can’t say enough good about what the BK LFE’s add. Nothing can match their extreme ferocity when they are dialed in!!! It’s just not the same without them no matter what else your running it seems. I’m so very happy with the system now and been enjoying it immensely!! I think I’ve watched Alita like 4 times recently and a few others LOL. Time to just keep on enjoying the HT from here out I think 

Anyways, about the new Projector, I just couldn’t pass up the reburb Epson 5040 at a hair over a grand and thought it would keep me happy until I can afford a high end true 4k JVC or something. But honestly, I can see myself continuing to be extremely happy with this Epson unit for a very long time which is super cool


----------



## Nalleh

^^^Can you please stop with these awsome updates !!!!!

Just kidding, LOL. Awsome post man, so happy to read about your progress 

Not to familiar about the Epson HDR setup, but sounds like you found a nice picture setting 

Even though my older JVC RS600 is HDR capable, as you may know it’s HDR gamma is "broken", so i am using either the custom gamma curves (Manni’s curves) or the OPPO tone mapping, and as such is watching SDR, not true HDR.

But glad you noted a improvement in picture quality. I kind of expected you to, but didn’t want to put pressure on you to invest even more money, LOL. I may have caused enough of that earlier 

You should now be pretty much up to date now in all aspects, with an amazing BIG HDR picture, full Atmos awsomeness and your insane LFE/TR setup in a blackened out dedicated sealed room.

Have you tried out 3D yet? I would expect it to be improved too.

And way cool about your BK getting better too! This is often the way i find improvements too, trying out every possible combination, even those that don’t make sense(like inverted phase). Sure, it would be easy for me to test out, just a RCA from the OPPO subout to a unused input on my 10x10HD, and just change it in the Minidsp settings. As i guess you did.

I am sooo glad you didn’t give up on the BK’s, i suspected it could be a setup problem, so i kept nagging you to try it some more, LOL. I agree totally, nothing else can touch them for what they do best, so yeah they will never leave my setup 

Also way cool about your XBOX AND ATV4K upgrades too, yes you are allowed to have both  They can both give you maaaany hours of enjoyment, for sure 

Ohh, and thanks for the pics too, for the life of me i don’t get how you can get so good pics with just a Iphone! I have a Iphone X and can’t get as nice ones, good work my friend. They look awsome 

Like i say:

Good times 


Still on vaca, will travel back this weekend, so still longing for my HT, LOL. I have the Alita 4K on it’s way too, so can’t wait to get back home and enjoy that one, read only good stuff about it, and i think i will love it as much as you do


----------



## Kevnmin

Hey man! Congrats to the upgrade with the PJ! Makes me jealous, WAF isn't letting that happen in our place. I'm even more happy to hear you've found the pink cloud again with the BK's. I'm still without those at the moment, but have found some used ones worth researching for viability.


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> ^^^Can you please stop with these awsome updates !!!!!
> 
> Just kidding, LOL. Awsome post man, so happy to read about your progress
> 
> Not to familiar about the Epson HDR setup, but sounds like you found a nice picture setting
> 
> Even though my older JVC RS600 is HDR capable, as you may know it’s HDR gamma is "broken", so i am using either the custom gamma curves (Manni’s curves) or the OPPO tone mapping, and as such is watching SDR, not true HDR.
> 
> But glad you noted a improvement in picture quality. I kind of expected you to, but didn’t want to put pressure on you to invest even more money, LOL. I may have caused enough of that earlier
> 
> You should now be pretty much up to date now in all aspects, with an amazing BIG HDR picture, full Atmos awsomeness and your insane LFE/TR setup in a blackened out dedicated sealed room.
> 
> Have you tried out 3D yet? I would expect it to be improved too.
> 
> And way cool about your BK getting better too! This is often the way i find improvements too, trying out every possible combination, even those that don’t make sense(like inverted phase). Sure, it would be easy for me to test out, just a RCA from the OPPO subout to a unused input on my 10x10HD, and just change it in the Minidsp settings. As i guess you did.
> 
> I am sooo glad you didn’t give up on the BK’s, i suspected it could be a setup problem, so i kept nagging you to try it some more, LOL. I agree totally, nothing else can touch them for what they do best, so yeah they will never leave my setup
> 
> Also way cool about your XBOX AND ATV4K upgrades too, yes you are allowed to have both  They can both give you maaaany hours of enjoyment, for sure
> 
> Ohh, and thanks for the pics too, for the life of me i don’t get how you can get so good pics with just a Iphone! I have a Iphone X and can’t get as nice ones, good work my friend. They look awsome
> 
> Like i say:
> 
> Good times
> 
> 
> Still on vaca, will travel back this weekend, so still longing for my HT, LOL. I have the Alita 4K on it’s way too, so can’t wait to get back home and enjoy that one, read only good stuff about it, and i think i will love it as much as you do


LOL …well I’ve been trying to update more like you instead of so few and far in between  But yes I have been doing a lot of updates lately huh! At least you said they're awesome though  hahahaha

Seriously, thanks my bro!!!!!

I did read a little bit about the JVCs and sounds like Manni’s Curves do the trick nicely. I think Pio does the same and uses the HDfury for HDR flag trickery etc on his JVC as well. If I would have went the JVC route this time around, Im sure I would have been all over those settings too. 

No problem at all on the pressure my friend!! I’ll always listen to what you have to say and always really appreciate the suggestions you give me!! You pushed me in great ways to make me try to get my system to the point it is now. I’ve said it before, but thanks again mate!!

So yep, pretty much up to date now for sure with the HT, which is nice!!! 

As far as 3D goes, nope haven’t tried it yet, but looking forward to it!! But I did get my glasses all charged up in prep for it LOL. I loved the 3D on my previous Epson 5030, so I’m thinking it should be even better on this unit. That’s one of the things that I thought the Epson 5030 did exceptionally well at, was 3D and REALLY enjoyed a lot of it over the years. 

Yeah man, so glad I didn’t give up on the BKs!! I know what they are capable of and loved what they have brought for years now, so is why I kept on trying. Just needed to take a breather from trying there for a while I guess. Then you still loving them so much helped push me to get them back in the game too. You’re a pretty good guy to have around me thinks!!  Hahaha

Cool, yeah if you do try running them through the Oppo subout, just run a RCA from the oppo subout and into an open input in the mini. Then it makes it easy to switch back and forth to compare Oppo vs AVR. Just be sure to setup bass management in the oppo (in the speaker setup section) for it to work right. It won’t affect what’s sent out in HDMI at all, only the analog, which is what we want. Also don’t forget to set the volume control to ‘variable’ so that you can set it where you want it iand also if you raise or lower you MV if you listen at different levels sometimes other than your -20mv. Also makes dialing in more or less intensity on the fly super easy if you want more or less from the BKs (for whatever reason) from where you normally have them set at. 

With the amp gain settings that I use for the BKs and ran through the AVR, I had to set the volume control with the oppo remote to about 60 (it goes from 0 to 100). Also don’t forget that you’ll have to be sure and set your BEQ filters for the input in the mini that you have the BKS coming in on from the Oppo, or they won’t be getting the BEQ treatment. Oh no’s, that wouldn’t be good!! LOL

So anyway, you may like the feel they give this way like I do, or maybe not. Or may feel the same to you. Worth a try I think though. I’ll be interested to see what you think either way since you’re so good at this stuff and always love hearing your thoughts on it all.

As far as the pics go and getting good ones, thanks!! For whatever reason, its always been pretty easy for video screen shot stills in this room on the iPhone. I will say though, that it seems to be a little tougher with more dynamic range in the image now. If there is a ton of super darks and super bright in the image, especially in certain areas, the phone can’t quite capture the image correctly. Not enough dynamic range in the phone camera, even if I use the HDR setting (which sometimes works better but not always). The camera just tries to expose for either the darks or the bights and can’t do both at the same time very well on certain scenes, therefore really compromising the real look of the image. So, you kind of have to know what scenes the camera can handle best for the best looking images. Other than that, I just point and shoot and try to keep the camera half way straight and not all tilted. Sometimes I might have to take the same pic 5 times to get it right. Take enough pics of different scenes though, and you usually get a few that turn out good and looks really close to the actual image color and exposure wise.

So thats all I know about that lol. 

Yeah, I thought you may be getting ready to head back from the vaca soon. Safe travels my friend!!! Will be nice to be back to your awesome rig I’m sure. Especially with Alita waiting for you!!!  LOL


----------



## SBuger

Kevnmin said:


> Hey man! Congrats to the upgrade with the PJ! Makes me jealous, WAF isn't letting that happen in our place. I'm even more happy to hear you've found the pink cloud again with the BK's. I'm still without those at the moment, but have found some used ones worth researching for viability.


Hey thanks Kev!!! Yeah WAF can be tough sometimes huh!!! Yeah man, these BKs really are the shiz when you get them set right with your other components and can take what’s already great with the other TR components to new heights for sure. I think your gonna love them when you try them once you get them setup well!!! Cool to here you may have found some used ones!! Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on them when you get them in. How’s your new 6 JBL BOSS working out? You may have said over in the BOSS thread, but I haven’t been over there in a while.


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## Kevnmin

SBuger said:


> Hey thanks Kev!!! Yeah WAF can be tough sometimes huh!!! Yeah man, these BKs really are the shiz when you get them set right with your other components and can take what’s already great with the other TR components to new heights for sure. I think your gonna love them when you try them once you get them setup well!!! Cool to here you may have found some used ones!! Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on them when you get them in. How’s your new 6 JBL BOSS working out? You may have said over in the BOSS thread, but I haven’t been over there in a while.


Ah, the new 6 driver platform hits very very nice! Between that and the third shaker I added, there's not a bad seat on the couch now. I haven't the dialed the different components in completely yet for timing but so far its been great. I've got the output on my 2x4 set with a 55 hz negative 10 high shelf and Q 1.1 for both cables that feed the shakers and JBL's. The shakers really add some emphasis from about 20 hz and up, whereas the JBL's help with lower hz than that. Works out for a really good and natural blend.

Being it's Shark Week, we recorded an hour long show on a mammoth Great White nicknamed 'Deep Blue' that aired on Monday night on Discovery Channel. I believe the title was _Legend of Deep Blue_. We sat down last night to watch it. Surprisingly for an OTA broadcast from Directv, the bass was over the top. I mean almost too much at a couple points. Oh man, and near the end of the show, as a really big shark appears, the JBL's even bottomed slightly. It was thumping and rumbling. I've got to either get an Inuke or use the compressor function to limit the signal to prevent that. If only time and money grew on trees...
If you get the chance though, see if you can stream the show on demand while it might still be available. Its worth the watch and the ride!

I'll let you know in a couple days if I get the used BK's. I'm getting giddy about them.


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## javanpohl

My room is pretty much the same size as yours and I'm currently working on getting it blacked out myself. Nice stuff.


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## javanpohl

Hey @SBuger mind sharing some of your settings that you're using to eek out the HDR awesomeness? I also have the same projector and I feel like I've been chasing my tail around trying to get HDR to look awesome on certain movies.


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## javanpohl

Oh, and BTW, I just posted about this in another thread, but I've tried a few different 3D glasses and I JUST finally plunked down and got the official Epson glasses. Holy cow--HUGE difference. I had a DLP before this and with the Epson glasses was the first time I legitimately thought the lack of crosstalk was in the same ballpark. Highly recommend coughing up the extra change to get the Epson glasses.


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## SBuger

^^^ @javanpohl – thanks for stopping by!! 

Nice on the room and getting it blacked out, prepare yourself for WAY more immersion and PQ from the projector. Seriously, big time difference, at least it was for me!!! I think you’ll love what it does for your HT experience, if you don’t mind being in a bat cave LOL

About the HDR settings. I think mainly I just adjusted gamma points 2 and 3 up enough to bring out more of the shadow details and brighten the image enough to get a pleasing ‘pop’ in Bright Cinema mode with the HDR1 setting in medium lamp mode. Everything else is pretty much defaults I think and looks good to my untrained eyes. I can take a look though when I get a chance and send you the settings to be more exact if you want. 

But yeah, getting ALL HDR movies to look just perfect with just one setting in the projector can be tough with HDR. I’m sure the help of the HDR optimizer sliders and nit limiters for these PJs in the Panasonic UB820 or UB9000 players would help tremendously for blown highlights, shadows detail and overall brightness levels in these varying nit levels from one HDR movie to another (some movies at 1000 nits, some at 4000s nit etc) . But the Oppo 203 I use doesn’t have any of that unfortunately. I was going to get a 9000 to replace my Oppo for this feature, but after finding out the Panny’s don’t support lossless audio in MKV format, I canned that idea since most of my movie collection is lossless MKVs. I may change my mind and get one at some point, but for now the settings I’m using seem to be great for my tastes on ‘most’ HDR content I’ve tried so far. But I’m not a videophile either and may not be as picky as others when it comes to video, so …..

Cool on the 3D glasses!! I’ve yet to try 3D on the 5040, but will soon. I’ve got 2 pair of the Epson 3D glasses that came with my last Epson 5030 that were really good. I’ve also got a set of Xpand Vision 3D glasses that I loved last time I tried them that were only about $35 IIRC. Its been a while since I’ve watched in 3D though, so will compare them again to the Epson’s. 

I don’t remember seeing much crosstalk (on good 3D content anyway) with the Xpand glasses on the 5030, but may not be as good as the Epsons in this area. IDK. BUT, what I did love about the Xpand glasses is that they are lighter weight and more comfy over the course of a movie and allow for a greater Field of Vision. That’s really important to me since I set really close to a 120” screen. With the Epsons, if I didn’t hold my head just right, especially in 16:9 aspect, the corners of the image would get cut off by the frames of the glasses. Drove me nutz!! One of the draw backs of setting close to a big screen, I guess. But the immersion …..oooooooo ahhhhhhhh!!!!


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## javanpohl

You rip your movies?

Somehow I've been oblivious to the fact that Oppos don't play 3D MKV files. Booooo!!! Have you considered using a different (standalone 3D capable media) player so you can join in on the 3D Atmos remuxing fun? I did see that you are outputing your tactile transducers straight from the Oppo with stellar results, so I guess you'd have to deal with a trade-off either way. 

I will say that the Atmos mixes aren't always a huge improvement over an upmixed 7.1 track, but sometimes they are (Gravity and Fantastic Beasts, for example... probably also Kong), but sometimes I just like being able to give a middle finger to The Man who thinks 3D blurays shouldn't have Atmos on them.

Edit: apparently Oppos (at least one model) can play 3D files via mt2s? I'm currently looking into this. Let me know if you're already aware. I'm wanting to add this info to one of my ripping threads.

Edit: I obtained and added a write-up to the 3D Atmos re-muxing thread. See the link in the sig.


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## SBuger

Yeah, I used to rip it a lot more than I do now and spoiled me not having to use the discs to watch. I do a lot of skipping around for demoing and whatnot and is just so much easier having them all on a drive. I’ve got a friend that does it too which helps. Yeah, I’ve noticed that the 3D mkvs won’t play right in 3D on the Oppo. 

Yep I did consider changing players and really wanted the Panny with the HDR controls too. But yeah, beyond them not playing the lossless audio on the MKVs, I’m now back to using the Oppo subout for the BK LFEs which I’m absolutely loving. So now even if the Panny would play the lossless audio on the MKVs, I don’t think I could make the jump and lose the subout on the Oppo for the BKs. Ugh … Always pros, cons and compromises it seems lol . 

Yeah no Atmos included on the 3D releases really sucks I agree!! How dare they do that kind of crap!!! LOL You found a way around that though, nice!! Your link to remixing 3D and Atmos is awesome, thanks!!


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## SBuger

*Small Update* on the new Projector

So, I'm running some new settings that I’m just in love with for the 4K HDR movies on this Epson 5040. Seriously, I can’t get over the kind of picture this PJ can give with some good settings. I’m running a tweaked version of the ‘HarperVision’ now for a lot brighter and punchier pics than what it gives in his original settings. Plus, I can now run the projector in ECO which is really quiet and doesn’t get nearly as hot. 

Here's a few images I snapped last night with my iPhone 7 to try to show what they look like. They look really close actually to what the image looked like in real. The phone overexposed maybe just a bit on a few of them and blew some highlights in a few areas, but I thought highlight detail in real life was pretty much spot on with not really much blowing out at all that I could see. I'm sure there is some, but I'm cool with that if I'm not really noticing it. 

First pic From Aquaman. I knew if it could nail this one, then I would probably love it for everything else, because this scene seems to blow highlights easily and washes out with bad settings. Not this time ...YAY!!! 









Another from Aquaman. I thought this one was just jaw dropping for real's setting in front of the screen. I'm 6’ 6” eyes to 120" screen and still looked razor sharp too (and quite engulfing). Dang this PJ is sharp with e-shift!! Can’t imagine a true 4K.









One form Avengers: Infinity War. I thought the image quality in this movie was amazing and razor sharp on a lot of the close-ups, which I love. Her face actually looks too sharp and funky/artifact'd in the photo but looked great in actual. 









Man, this Refurb 5040 for a little over a grand rocks and is truly a steal for the price IMO!!!!  So glad I made the decision to snag one.

@javanpohl – you might give these settings a shot if you don’t have a problem with using the Harper Vision method. I know I don’t, whatever it takes I say!!  Give it a go, you may like it. But maybe not, worth trying though IMO. I posted the settings over in the 5040 thread if you want them.


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## Sekosche

SBuger said:


> *
> 
> Man, this Refurb 5040 for a little over a grand rocks and is truly a steal for the price IMO!!!!  So glad I made the decision to snag one.
> 
> *


*


Pics look great!

I didn’t know about these refurbs when I traded my Epson 2150 for a 3700 when they dropped to $999 over a year ago. Since it was for a shared living room that’s not light controlled super well, aside from black out curtains during movie times, I didn’t figure I’d get the best picture out of a more premium PJ anyway and liked the brightness of the 3700 for day time viewing. I’ve read up quite a lot about the 5040UB since then, and now wish I had bought one instead...hindsight. 

How does the 5040 handle some ambient light, small lamp on? I figure for day time viewing that the wife watches a lot of TV with, the 3700 is still a solid PJ, and it is decent enough, but the black levels do leave a lot to be desired for my movie sessions. I’m not upgrading again before we move next year anyway, but just curious how the 5040 would look without a bat cave to optimize the image.

I also game a bit on a PS4 Pro, so would have helped a little there with detail and clarity I bet.*


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## SBuger

^^^ Hey thanks Sekosche!!

Well, with the light on from the closet, the image is still pretty good actually. But if I turn on the lights up top, especially the lights that shine right on the screen, it washes it out pretty bad. 

I would think for a living room, especially with some blackout curtains to help block light, this 5040 will still look pretty darn good. I’ve seen this projector recommended before if you have more light in your viewing environment since it’s such a light cannon. I think it actually tested higher for lumens in some of those reviews than what was listed in the manufacture’s specs. I’m betting your Epson 3700 is pretty bright too. I know my Epson 5030 was, at least before the bulb started getting over 2,0000 hours on it. But yeah, black levels will definitely take a hit with the more light that is in the room and reflected back to the screen. 

You like your PS4 Pro pretty good? So far Im really liking the Xbox, but is my first venture into this type of gaming on TV or Projector. So fun and amazing in game graphics!! Ive still only played Rise of the Tomb raider and Forza 4. I need to get Forza 7 so me and my daughter can race each other split screen. Don't know why I just didn't get 7 to begin with.


----------



## Kevnmin

SBuger said:


> Hey thanks Kev!!! Yeah WAF can be tough sometimes huh!!! Yeah man, these BKs really are the shiz when you get them set right with your other components and can take what’s already great with the other TR components to new heights for sure. I think your gonna love them when you try them once you get them setup well!!! Cool to here you may have found some used ones!! Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on them when you get them in. How’s your new 6 JBL BOSS working out? You may have said over in the BOSS thread, but I haven’t been over there in a while.


Hey dude, I wanted to share the news with future plans. I'm now the proud owner of a couple Bk's thanks to @lizrussspike - Big thanks and shout out to him for helping make that happen! 

Yeah, so you know I do now love the 6 driver platform but I'm always wanting more. Luckily with the current platform config, I've got enough room on it for a couple test locations with the BK's, either near the front of the couch or near the back. It'll be interesting to see using VS and REW sweeps like @Nalleh uses to get best individual and combined results. Hopefully I can get to it over the weekend, but being summertime, one never knows.

Some questions though about your experience with BK's, where are you setting you negative high shelf with them or are you using low pass to keep them from clanging? Also, timing wise, have you found negative delay better for timing or positive delay?


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## SBuger

^^^Nice!!!! Can’t wait to hear what you think of them once you get them into your setup and integrated!! You heard what I went through with mine there for a while, so keep trying if you don’t get it right with your first attempts. The BKs have a serious amount of potential in a system like yours and the performance and rewards can be massive!!!

About the settings: Well currently, I’m using a negative high shelf as well as a negative LS on the BK LFEs. First I’m running a negative HS at 55hz, -10db and 0.9Q, but am actually liking it a little higher now as well sometimes on some material. Also, I’m running a negative LS at 12hz of -10 and 1Q. The BKs just seem to feel best to me this way, and yes keeps them from bottoming and clanging as much. I know Nalleh is using the compressor limiter for this sort of thing on the low end in place of rolling them off and I’m sure works great too. But like I was saying, I’m just really digging the feel of the BKs with these settings’ vs no rolloff ATM. Oh yeah, also I’m back to running them through the AVR. Overall, I think they feel best this way. They are def better feeling in a few scenes through the Oppo for whatever reason, but overall on most all movies and scenes, I’m back to liking the AVR. LOL, I flip-flopped on that fast enough to make your head spin huh ROFL!! I should have done more testing before I reported all that last week . Either way though, GAWD these BKs in the mix are really bringing it and putting a huge smile on my face!!! 

As far as the negative delay goes, its best in my system set at 24’ (for BOSS, MAs and BKs) which is as much as I can get with the crappy restrictions Denon puts on their receivers (20’ max past the closest speakers). It’s still great though but may be even better with more negative delay, if I could get it without a huge headache.


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## lizrussspike

4K looking real good @SBuger on your set up!


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## SBuger

lizrussspike said:


> 4K looking real good @SBuger on your set up!


Hey thanks lizrussspike!! Im super happy with it so far and SO glad I finally made the leap, as I didn’t know what I was missing before, even though I really liked what I had perviously (or thought I did LOL).

Even for streaming the 4K HDR stuff. I watched the first episodes of Altered Carbon and Dark on Netflix last night and couldn’t hardly believe what I was seeing!! I didn’t know streaming could be that good.

And this is just one of the more affordable e-shift faux 4K PJs. I can only imagine what a true 4K super high end projector would look like!! 

Thanks again for stopping by and the good words my friend!


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## lizrussspike

@Kevnmin, Glad that they are working out for you as you shake rattle and roll Bro! Sounds like you have a great set up as well riding into bass nirvana.


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## lizrussspike

SBuger said:


> Hey thanks lizrussspike!! Im super happy with it so far and SO glad I finally made the leap, as I didn’t know what I was missing before, even though I really liked what I had perviously (or thought I did LOL).
> 
> Even for streaming the 4K HDR stuff. I watched the first episodes of Altered Carbon and Dark on Netflix last night and couldn’t hardly believe what I was seeing!! I didn’t know streaming could be that good.
> 
> And this is just one of the more affordable e-shift faux 4K PJs. I can only imagine what a true 4K super high end projector would look like!!
> 
> Thanks again for stopping by and the good words my friend!


Yes Sir @SBuger, that altered carbon is some good eye candy, some real great scenes. I have an e-shift JVC as well, and do wonder what it would be like with a true 4K projector, but not going that route yet. Just trying to enjoy what I have for now. Watching the Vudu stream on End Game with the girls and having the mini BOSS running thru the couch was well worth it. It just takes viewing and feeling a movie to another level, as much as I can for now...


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## SBuger

^^^ Nice, I hear great things about those JVC’s!! Cool on the BOSS and movie watching too!! Yep makes it a lot more fun and takes it to a new level for sure huh!!!


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## Kain

@SBuger

How far are your side surrounds and back surrounds from your listening position? Do you get any hot-spotting?


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## SBuger

Kain said:


> @SBuger
> 
> How far are your side surrounds and back surrounds from your listening position? Do you get any hot-spotting?


From the middle MLP seat, the side surrounds are 5.5’ and 3’ to the seat son each side. The rear surrounds are about 3.5’ from the MLP. 

I used to have horrible hot-spotting issues on my side surrounds with the direct radiating KEFs that I have and took me a fair amount of messing with them to get it worked out. The rear surrounds, not really hot-spotting, just getting them in the right position to be most effective needed some work with quite a bit of experimenting too.

For the side surrounds, since my room is so small and having the direct radiating bookshelf speakers, there were two main things that I had to do to fix the problem. Well, for starters, I have to have them forward/in front of me a bit, so they clear the heads and don’t get blocked if other people are in the seats. So not 90 degrees, which helps a little as well I think. But the two main things are levels in the mix and direction. The tweets are pointing forward at about a 45-degree angle, which is quite a bit, but this helps tremendously for non-localization while still giving a great sound. Then I also run them 7db lower than what Audyseey sets them at. I would think this would be WAY to low in the mix, but somehow sounds just perfect to my ears. Hotspotting and localization for the side surrounds is totally solved in this small room. At least in the MLP and is still pretty darn good in the side seats too. I had to watch a movie in the side seat the other day because my daughter wanted the middle MLP seat when we were watching Aladdin (I was a good dad and gave up the MLP  LOL). To my surprise, I don’t think I localized a speaker once during the whole movie (which had a fantastically mixed soundtrack IMO), which made me very happy. Was still real enveloping too, which I thought was way cool. Not as great as the MLP being dead center of course, which you just can’t beat for imaging, but still really good.

So, for the rear surrounds, it mainly just took me some time to get them were they needed to be to give the best enveloping and realistic effect. These are about 3.5' from my ears with each pointed directly at me. They are not directly behind me, but not too far off to the sides either. Kind of a happy medium, but probably more behind me than far apart. It seems to be just enough and in the right position, that they still image really good, which is awesome and what I was wanting for the MLP. I’ve been amazed at the rear surround field lately with movies, which seems to make such a huge difference! 

The side surrounds and the rear surrounds (all the speakers actually after quite a bit of work with toe in and whatnot) seem to all work together pretty darn seamlessly now without drawing attention to themselves at all. Pans seem big, smooth and really immersive, while not ever noticing it actually coming from the speakers themselves, at least to my ears and what I tried so hard to achieve. It could possibly be better yet, but I’ve been super happy with it after those changes, which took me a while to find what I was wanting. The rear surrounds may be just a touch high but wanted them to clear the seat backs since my ears are just a bit below the top. I could probably drop them a couple more inches and be fine, increasing base level to top rear distance just a bit for more spread. May not matter at all though.

I attached a few pics as well to try to show what I was talking about with the speakers in relation to the seats. Hope that helps! Maybe more info than you wanted, but there it is LOL 

Front side angle to show rear surrounds and side surrounds ...









From the side to show positioning and angle. Oh yeah, I think the diffusers help too that are directly to my sides.









View from the back closet that houses the PJ and amps ...









Do you have a small room too and some hot-spotting troubles going on with your speakers? Aggressive toe in helped TREMENDOUSLY as well with my front’s speakers and top speakers for the outside seats. I couldn't believe what it did for the outside seats actually.


----------



## Kain

SBuger said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> From the middle MLP seat, the side surrounds are 5.5’ and 3’ to the seat son each side. The rear surrounds are about 3.5’ from the MLP.
> 
> I used to have horrible hot-spotting issues on my side surrounds with the direct radiating KEFs that I have and took me a fair amount of messing with them to get it worked out. The rear surrounds, not really hot-spotting, just getting them in the right position to be most effective needed some work with quite a bit of experimenting too.
> 
> For the side surrounds, since my room is so small and having the direct radiating bookshelf speakers, there were two main things that I had to do to fix the problem. Well, for starters, I have to have them forward/in front of me a bit, so they clear the heads and don’t get blocked if other people are in the seats. So not 90 degrees, which helps a little as well I think. But the two main things are levels in the mix and direction. The tweets are pointing forward at about a 45-degree angle, which is quite a bit, but this helps tremendously for non-localization while still giving a great sound. Then I also run them 7db lower than what Audyseey sets them at. I would think this would be WAY to low in the mix, but somehow sounds just perfect to my ears. Hotspotting and localization for the side surrounds is totally solved in this small room. At least in the MLP and is still pretty darn good in the side seats too. I had to watch a movie in the side seat the other day because my daughter wanted the middle MLP seat when we were watching Aladdin (I was a good dad and gave up the MLP  LOL). To my surprise, I don’t think I localized a speaker once during the whole movie (which had a fantastically mixed soundtrack IMO), which made me very happy. Was still real enveloping too, which I thought was way cool. Not as great as the MLP being dead center of course, which you just can’t beat for imaging, but still really good.
> 
> So, for the rear surrounds, it mainly just took me some time to get them were they needed to be to give the best enveloping and realistic effect. These are about 3.5' from my ears with each pointed directly at me. They are not directly behind me, but not too far off to the sides either. Kind of a happy medium, but probably more behind me than far apart. It seems to be just enough and in the right position, that they still image really good, which is awesome and what I was wanting for the MLP. I’ve been amazed at the rear surround field lately with movies, which seems to make such a huge difference!
> 
> The side surrounds and the rear surrounds (all the speakers actually after quite a bit of work with toe in and whatnot) seem to all work together pretty darn seamlessly now without drawing attention to themselves at all. Pans seem big, smooth and really immersive, while not ever noticing it actually coming from the speakers themselves, at least to my ears and what I tried so hard to achieve. It could possibly be better yet, but I’ve been super happy with it after those changes, which took me a while to find what I was wanting. The rear surrounds may be just a touch high but wanted them to clear the seat backs since my ears are just a bit below the top. I could probably drop them a couple more inches and be fine, increasing base level to top rear distance just a bit for more spread. May not matter at all though.
> 
> I attached a few pics as well to try to show what I was talking about with the speakers in relation to the seats. Hope that helps! Maybe more info than you wanted, but there it is LOL
> 
> Front side angle to show rear surrounds and side surrounds ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the side to show positioning and angle. Oh yeah, I think the diffusers help too that are directly to my sides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View from the back closet that houses the PJ and amps ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a small room too and some hot-spotting troubles going on with your speakers? Aggressive toe in helped TREMENDOUSLY as well with my front’s speakers and top speakers for the outside seats. I couldn't believe what it did for the outside seats actually.


Thank you! 

Yes, I too have a small room (roughly 12 ft long x 11 ft wide x 9.5 ft high). Planning a 9.1.6 setup (I know, that's a lot of speakers for that small space but hopefully it will work). Distance from the LCR speakers to the main listening position will be roughly 7 ft and the distance from the side and back surrounds to the main listening position will be about 4 ft. Front wides will be about 5 ft away. 4 ft is kinda close so I was worried. All speakers will be monopoles.


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## SBuger

^^^ No prob! Cool, I bet you can make all those speakers work just fine and will be awesome!!


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## ereed

@SBuger try what I did and see if you like it. Rather than having your side surrounds firing forward a little. Just move it about 1 to 1.5 feet in front of 90 degree angle and having them firing directly at each other. So they fire across each other instead of toward the front of room. I found that gave me better spacing between the front and rears. I had to do the same thing due to heads blocking the speakers and found it better than 90 degree first place. WIN WIN!


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## ereed

Kain said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Yes, I too have a small room (roughly 12 ft long x 11 ft wide x 9.5 ft high). Planning a 9.1.6 setup (I know, that's a lot of speakers for that small space but hopefully it will work). Distance from the LCR speakers to the main listening position will be roughly 7 ft and the distance from the side and back surrounds to the main listening position will be about 4 ft. Front wides will be about 5 ft away. 4 ft is kinda close so I was worried. All speakers will be monopoles.


You will be fine. Just calibrate it with test tones so the closer speaker isn't louder than the farthest speaker.


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## SBuger

ereed said:


> @SBuger try what I did and see if you like it. Rather than having your side surrounds firing forward a little. Just move it about 1 to 1.5 feet in front of 90 degree angle and having them firing directly at each other. So they fire across each other instead of toward the front of room. I found that gave me better spacing between the front and rears. I had to do the same thing due to heads blocking the speakers and found it better than 90 degree first place. WIN WIN!


Yep I have tried that and thought that would be better too (sounds like it is for yours), but nope, I can still locate them too easy that way. I guess Im just easily bothered by being able to locate the side surrounds, IDK. In front AND pointing forward seems to do the trick just perfectly though, so all is good now


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## ereed

SBuger said:


> Yep I have tried that and thought that would be better too (sounds like it is for yours), but nope, I can still locate them too easy that way. I guess Im just easily bothered by being able to locate the side surrounds, IDK. In front AND pointing forward seems to do the trick just perfectly though, so all is good now


Since they are monopoles they are supposed to be located when called upon. Like if a fast car drives by to side of screen you hear it on that speaker. Otherwise you shouldn't be hearing it at all. I think I didn't like it pointed up front since it was probably reflecting off the screen and back to me I assume. Either way...better than 90 degree right at your ears.


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## SBuger

^^^ Well that’s just it, I don’t think I’m a fan of monopoles for side surrounds in the normal fashion, at least not in my small room (with only one set of side surrounds) where you are pretty close to them at ear level. This is why I had to take pretty drastic measures with their db levels in the mix as well as their angles. Like I said in my previous posts, it’s golden now and gave me exactly what I wanted and needed. All is good, mate


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## ereed

^^^
That's what it is all about! As long as you get it to work where its not distracting is the main goal. At least its very good to experiment to see what works rather than just sticking with Dolby guide and call it quits.


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## Kain

@SBuger

Not sure if you've already mentioned this, but where is your seating located in the room (i.e. middle of the room, etc.)? I've read that small square rooms are pretty "bad" for bass as they cause nulls and whatnot. How is your frequency response at the main listening position for your subwoofers?


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## SBuger

Kain said:


> @SBuger
> 
> Not sure if you've already mentioned this, but where is your seating located in the room (i.e. middle of the room, etc.)? I've read that small square rooms are pretty "bad" for bass as they cause nulls and whatnot. How is your frequency response at the main listening position for your subwoofers?


Hey Kain!

My room is 13x13x8, so basically square with the ceiling being shorter. My seating is probably about ¾ into the room I would say. So, closet to the back wall.

Yep, definitely NOT the best for a good FR, at least for ‘one’ sub location. For a nice FR, without over boosting with PEQ, I need multiple locations. At least two, but use 3 including the VNF subs behind the seats (Front wall, side walls and right behind the seating for VNF (which is just mainly for ‘feel’). The MLP has some pretty bad peaks and nulls with all locations for the subs, so I mainly try to cut the peaks and fill in the nulls with other sub locations. This seems to work well.

The side wall subs towards the rear of the room seem to give the best overall FR on their own out of all the locations, with the 35hz area suffering the most with a dip. I can get a pretty good FR from just those locations alone, but feel I have to boost the 30-40hz area too much. So, I use the front sub to help fill in this area and does a better job from all three seats in this area as well.

Then, the VNFs suffer a big dip in the 60-75hz area (35hz area too) as well but is filled in nicely from the side wall subs. So, all together with multiple sub locations is pretty much a must for to get a nice FR across the board in this room without having to use too much PEQ.

It’s a pretty tough room for sure but have been able to make it work.


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## rontalley

Your room looks great!

How far away are you from the screen? I am about 10' away from a 110" and it's right on the cusp of being too big! My wife couldn't even watch it for about 2 months then she finally gave in. I have to admit though, it's quite wonderful now that I am use to it.


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## SBuger

rontalley said:


> Your room looks great!
> 
> How far away are you from the screen? I am about 10' away from a 110" and it's right on the cusp of being too big! My wife couldn't even watch it for about 2 months then she finally gave in. I have to admit though, it's quite wonderful now that I am use to it.


Thank you!! Looks like you’ve got a real nice setup there as well and a good viewing distance to your 110”. I think that probably feels about right to a lot of folks and close to what is recommended. Some folks are a LOT more sensitive to size and distance than others for sure!!! I started about where you’re at now (110” at ~10’ away) in my previous house. Then just got bigger and closer as time went on. You do get used to it, and then start wanting bigger and or closer. Well I did any way. If your wife is that sensitive to it though, she may not ever.

My wife gets motion sickness pretty easy, but surprisingly she thinks as close as we are now to the 120”, it doesn’t bother her (on like 95% of movies anyway) and thinks it feels about right. And we are CLOSE … LOL. It does make my 8 year old daughter a bit dizzy feeling afterwords sometimes though.

Somebody asked me the same question in the ‘Bass for Movies Thread’ about 3 weeks ago, so I’ll just quote what I said about it over there. This should give a good idea and some answers hopefully  Thanks again for the good words and stopping by!!



SBuger said:


> Thanks for the kind words man!!
> 
> Well, I set pretty darn close to my screen. Partially because I’m forced to in this small room (I could move back some though) and partially because the screen I have is only 120” 16:9 and I want that huge immersive feel. I used to sit a little under 10ft (3m) like you’re thinking when I had my setup down in the living with this same screen and really liked it. That’s probably about right and comfortable for most folks and would be recommended. I think you’ll love it!!
> 
> In this new room of mine which is pretty small (1400 cuft), I started at about 7.5’ eyes to screen and loved it for that really big immersive feel. Since then over the course of a couple years, I’ve continued to inch my seating forward little by little wanting MOAR LOL, as I think we just get used to things after a while. I’m now at about 6.5’ eyes to 120” 16:9 screen. Yes, it’s SO breaking the “rules” for recommended viewing distance, but man I love it. We like what we like right!? …recommend or not LOL. In 16:9 format its crazy immersive and just what I want. Surprisingly, still super sharp too even with e-shift 4K PJ. So, that just seems perfect to me with 16:9 material. But, for the majority of movie material in scope mode, I could still stand it to be bigger and more immersive.
> 
> I was just saying the other day that I’m seriously considering building a bigger screen in scope mode, since I don’t really want to move my seating any closer to the screen but want the scope movies to feel as big as the 16:9 movies and other content does. So, about the same height as 16:9, which is 58” but wider on the sides, making it that much more immersive for scope content.
> 
> I’ve been messing around with the zoom with a lot of 2:35 content and feel that about 54” high feels just about perfect. Of course, the sides get cut off, but still gives height, sharpness and immersive feel of what it will be like not including the extra width on the sides, which I think will help a ton with as well for immersion. So, I’m thinking a 54” x 140” scope 2:35 should be just about what I want with 6.5’ eyes to the screen. Should be pretty crazy hahahaha  If I end up not liking it and is too much (nah I don’t think so), I can always go back to what I have now.
> 
> I know, even what I have now at 6.5” eyes to screen may sound like your setting in the front row at a commercial movie theater. But no, it’s just super immersive and not overwhelming. I HATE that feel of being in the first 10-20 rows or so at the movie theater. Its just WAY to overpowering and unbearable IMO. Some do like it though I guess, as this can be a very subjective thing. For reference, I find about 1/3 of the way back (maybe a hair farther) at most commercial movie theaters to be about right for my tastes. The distance that I’m at now feels about like that I think, except more personal and detailed if that makes sense. I do LOVE it
> 
> I would say, if you can, project the image on a wall at the distance your seating is going to be at, then adjust the size to what feels comfortable on a good variety of the better movies to help you make a size choice. Preferences can vary a lot I think from person to person, so finding what you like is key IMO. Just keep in mind that we do seem to acclimate pretty quiclly to a size and you may find yourself wanting more eventually. At least that’s the way it’s worked for me. But I admit, I do have a weird kind of sickness when it comes to all this Home Theater stuff LOL
> 
> When it comes to HT, I do love IMMERSIVE Video, Surround and most importantly, Bass and TR


----------



## m0j0

SBuger said:


> From the middle MLP seat, the side surrounds are 5.5’ and 3’ to the seat son each side. The rear surrounds are about 3.5’ from the MLP.
> 
> I used to have horrible hot-spotting issues on my side surrounds with the direct radiating KEFs that I have and took me a fair amount of messing with them to get it worked out. The rear surrounds, not really hot-spotting, just getting them in the right position to be most effective needed some work with quite a bit of experimenting too.
> 
> For the side surrounds, since my room is so small and having the direct radiating bookshelf speakers, there were two main things that I had to do to fix the problem. Well, for starters, I have to have them forward/in front of me a bit, so they clear the heads and don’t get blocked if other people are in the seats. So not 90 degrees, which helps a little as well I think. But the two main things are levels in the mix and direction. The tweets are pointing forward at about a 45-degree angle, which is quite a bit, but this helps tremendously for non-localization while still giving a great sound. Then I also run them 7db lower than what Audyseey sets them at. I would think this would be WAY to low in the mix, but somehow sounds just perfect to my ears. Hotspotting and localization for the side surrounds is totally solved in this small room. At least in the MLP and is still pretty darn good in the side seats too. I had to watch a movie in the side seat the other day because my daughter wanted the middle MLP seat when we were watching Aladdin (I was a good dad and gave up the MLP  LOL). To my surprise, I don’t think I localized a speaker once during the whole movie (which had a fantastically mixed soundtrack IMO), which made me very happy. Was still real enveloping too, which I thought was way cool. Not as great as the MLP being dead center of course, which you just can’t beat for imaging, but still really good.
> 
> So, for the rear surrounds, it mainly just took me some time to get them were they needed to be to give the best enveloping and realistic effect. These are about 3.5' from my ears with each pointed directly at me. They are not directly behind me, but not too far off to the sides either. Kind of a happy medium, but probably more behind me than far apart. It seems to be just enough and in the right position, that they still image really good, which is awesome and what I was wanting for the MLP. I’ve been amazed at the rear surround field lately with movies, which seems to make such a huge difference!
> 
> The side surrounds and the rear surrounds (all the speakers actually after quite a bit of work with toe in and whatnot) seem to all work together pretty darn seamlessly now without drawing attention to themselves at all. Pans seem big, smooth and really immersive, while not ever noticing it actually coming from the speakers themselves, at least to my ears and what I tried so hard to achieve. It could possibly be better yet, but I’ve been super happy with it after those changes, which took me a while to find what I was wanting. The rear surrounds may be just a touch high but wanted them to clear the seat backs since my ears are just a bit below the top. I could probably drop them a couple more inches and be fine, increasing base level to top rear distance just a bit for more spread. May not matter at all though.
> 
> I attached a few pics as well to try to show what I was talking about with the speakers in relation to the seats. Hope that helps! Maybe more info than you wanted, but there it is LOL
> 
> Front side angle to show rear surrounds and side surrounds ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the side to show positioning and angle. Oh yeah, I think the diffusers help too that are directly to my sides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View from the back closet that houses the PJ and amps ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a small room too and some hot-spotting troubles going on with your speakers? Aggressive toe in helped TREMENDOUSLY as well with my front’s speakers and top speakers for the outside seats. I couldn't believe what it did for the outside seats actually.


Just came across this post. I love the idea of trying to get a more diffuse sound from the side surrounds so I am going to try this setup and see how it goes.


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## SBuger

m0j0 said:


> Just came across this post. I love the idea of trying to get a more diffuse sound from the side surrounds so I am going to try this setup and see how it goes.


Oh yeah, I remember seeing your awesome looking theater and super cool entry a while back (shortly after the BOSS started getting popular IIRC)!!!  

Cool, yeah with you having a smaller room too, angling your side surrounds a little more forward may really help your SS's sound more diffuse as well. Its the only thing that worked well for mine out of all the stuff I tried. 

Let me know how it goes. You may love it too, but then again you may find you like them just the way they are now with them ahead of you a bit and pointing 90 degrees. Also, you may not need as much angle with your speakers though. I love the KEFs for movies and they image great, but can be pretty hot and direct when fired straight at me. Not good for side surrounds, at least not when they are pretty close LOL


----------



## m0j0

SBuger said:


> Oh yeah, I remember seeing your awesome looking theater and super cool entry a while back (shortly after the BOSS started getting popular IIRC)!!!
> 
> Cool, yeah with you having a smaller room too, angling your side surrounds a little more forward may really help your SS's sound more diffuse as well. Its the only thing that worked well for mine out of all the stuff I tried.
> 
> Let me know how it goes. You may love it too, but then again you may find you like them just the way they are now with them ahead of you a bit and pointing 90 degrees. Also, you may not need as much angle with your speakers though. I love the KEFs for movies and they image great, but can be pretty hot and direct when fired straight at me. Not good for side surrounds, at least not when they are pretty close LOL



I moved them a little more forward (about even with the cup holders) and tried different angles, from 45 degrees on down. Ended up with a really nice, diffused sound by pointing the speakers slightly forward, somewhere about halfway between a 90 degree and 45 degree angle. The LSiM's have pretty good dispersion so I don't feel like I'm losing anything from the MLP with this setup and at the same time I am gaining by making sure anyone sitting in the outside seats is much more comfortable, so it's an excellent solution for my room as well. Thanks for sharing your photos to give me the idea to try.


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## m0j0

Ok, here's some pictures of how I have them configured now. Moving them forward more and toeing them in less ended up being the best sounding and most comfortable across all 4 seats.


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## SBuger

m0j0 said:


> I moved them a little more forward (about even with the cup holders) and tried different angles, from 45 degrees on down. Ended up with a really nice, diffused sound by pointing the speakers slightly forward, somewhere about halfway between a 90 degree and 45 degree angle. The LSiM's have pretty good dispersion so I don't feel like I'm losing anything from the MLP with this setup and at the same time I am gaining by making sure anyone sitting in the outside seats is much more comfortable, so it's an excellent solution for my room as well. Thanks for sharing your photos to give me the idea to try.





m0j0 said:


> Ok, here's some pictures of how I have them configured now. Moving them forward more and toeing them in less ended up being the best sounding and most comfortable across all 4 seats.


AWESOME, so glad to hear it worked well for you too!!!!! Glad to share my friend, especially if it can help someone like this. 

Thanks for letting me know how it worked and the pics as well!!!! Nice job on finding that perfect sweet spot for positioning ahead of you for clearance of heads etc and angle to sound just right, experimenting is the KEY


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## Kain

@SBuger

Is using a MiniDSP or a QSC Q-SYS Core 110f to handle/calibrate multiple subwoofers difficult for someone who has never used such a device before? I am talking a complete newbie (i.e. would need step-by-step instructions to connect and set everything up).


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## SBuger

Kain said:


> @SBuger
> 
> Is using a MiniDSP or a QSC Q-SYS Core 110f to handle/calibrate multiple subwoofers difficult for someone who has never used such a device before? I am talking a complete newbie (i.e. would need step-by-step instructions to connect and set everything up).


I’ve never messed with the QSC Q-SYS Core before and have only used the MiniDSP with Audyssey XT 32 in my setups. If you’re a ‘complete newb’ as in never before used REW with a UMIK-1 mic (or an Omni-Mic setup) and/or don’t have any experience with the miniDSP and/or don’t have any experience with finding the best location(s) for a sub or multiple subs, then yes it could prove to be difficult (or even impossible) without learning this basics of these tools first. Even then, it can sometimes be trying in a tough room, but still attainable. If it’s a decent room, it shouldn’t be too bad once you get used to running sweeps, setting timing of each sub location etc. 

All this stuff is a learning process and is a VITAL part of getting the best out of you subs and bass response in your room. If you want to do all this stuff yourself that is. When I started first started getting serious about optimizing Bass and TR in my setup , I didn’t know anything about REW (Room EQ Wizard), much less how to integrate multiple subs in different locations with the use of a MiniDSP for timing and all that. But we all have to start somewhere. So that’s what I did, I dug in and learned all I could about the three things I listed up above, mainly through LOTS of reading on this forum and then putting it all into practice. Lots of REQ sweeps and integrations later, it got a lot easier to get what I was after. All this stuff definitely has a bit of a learning curve, but not too bad once you get into it. BUT, it is SOOOO worth it if you are a true Bass and HT enthusiast that wants and/or just enjoys setting up your subs to get the best experience possible from them. These skills are invaluable and a must if you are going try to do it yourself. 

I’m not trying to scare you, just saying it will take some work and time to learn what is needed if you are a ‘complete newb’ like I was when getting started. But it’s fun (I thought it was anyway) and not too bad with a little persistence to learn some new things. You might even find you really enjoy it  Plus there are lots of VERY knowledgeable people around these forums that love to help and share. 

If you want to go down this road, first, (if you haven’t already), I would start with learning the REW basics (setup to your computer and running sweeps for your Frequency Response). Then about using a MiniDSP in your system and what can be done with it (like PEQ, delay, etc) Then after that start tackling multiple sub setup with the miniDSP once you have the basics down and a good understanding of these tools and what a good FR looks and sounds like, etc. Plus what Audyssey XT 32 is able to do in your system as well, if you run that. 

When you get to that point, here is a link to an AWESOME guide that just “turned on the light” for me on how to integrate multiple subs in different locations with the use of a MiniDSP. Seriously a fantastic guide and example here with graphs and all that to show what he does in steps for each sub location to get the wanted combined end result, with Audyessy as the icing. Link is HERE from Mtg90 

Also, mthomas47’s Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences is awesome for overall knowledge that one needs to know HERE It's a HUGE guide, but stuff every HT bass enthusiast should know IMO, at least if you’re going to do this stuff yourself. 

If you’re going to do this and have a lot to learn, just try to take your time with it (not biting off more than you can chew at a time), try to have fun and not get too frustrated with it (which can happen at times). If that happens, back off a bit, take a breather, maybe ask some questions if need be and then hit it again. It’ll be worth it in the long run     

Hope all this helps somewhat. Good luck on it all and happy multiple subwoofer calibrating


----------



## Kain

SBuger said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve never messed with the QSC Q-SYS Core before and have only used the MiniDSP with Audyssey XT 32 in my setups. If you’re a ‘complete newb’ as in never before used REW with a UMIK-1 mic (or an Omni-Mic setup) and/or don’t have any experience with the miniDSP and/or don’t have any experience with finding the best location(s) for a sub or multiple subs, then yes it could prove to be difficult (or even impossible) without learning this basics of these tools first. Even then, it can sometimes be trying in a tough room, but still attainable. If it’s a decent room, it shouldn’t be too bad once you get used to running sweeps, setting timing of each sub location etc.
> 
> All this stuff is a learning process and is a VITAL part of getting the best out of you subs and bass response in your room. If you want to do all this stuff yourself that is. When I started first started getting serious about optimizing Bass and TR in my setup , I didn’t know anything about REW (Room EQ Wizard), much less how to integrate multiple subs in different locations with the use of a MiniDSP for timing and all that. But we all have to start somewhere. So that’s what I did, I dug in and learned all I could about the three things I listed up above, mainly through LOTS of reading on this forum and then putting it all into practice. Lots of REQ sweeps and integrations later, it got a lot easier to get what I was after. All this stuff definitely has a bit of a learning curve, but not too bad once you get into it. BUT, it is SOOOO worth it if you are a true Bass and HT enthusiast that wants and/or just enjoys setting up your subs to get the best experience possible from them. These skills are invaluable and a must if you are going try to do it yourself.
> 
> I’m not trying to scare you, just saying it will take some work and time to learn what is needed if you are a ‘complete newb’ like I was when getting started. But it’s fun (I thought it was anyway) and not too bad with a little persistence to learn some new things. You might even find you really enjoy it  Plus there are lots of VERY knowledgeable people around these forums that love to help and share.
> 
> If you want to go down this road, first, (if you haven’t already), I would start with learning the REW basics (setup to your computer and running sweeps for your Frequency Response). Then about using a MiniDSP in your system and what can be done with it (like PEQ, delay, etc) Then after that start tackling multiple sub setup with the miniDSP once you have the basics down and a good understanding of these tools and what a good FR looks and sounds like, etc. Plus what Audyssey XT 32 is able to do in your system as well, if you run that.
> 
> When you get to that point, here is a link to an AWESOME guide that just “turned on the light” for me on how to integrate multiple subs in different locations with the use of a MiniDSP. Seriously a fantastic guide and example here with graphs and all that to show what he does in steps for each sub location to get the wanted combined end result, with Audyessy as the icing. Link is HERE from Mtg90
> 
> Also, mthomas47’s Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences is awesome for overall knowledge that one needs to know HERE It's a HUGE guide, but stuff every HT bass enthusiast should know IMO, at least if you’re going to do this stuff yourself.
> 
> If you’re going to do this and have a lot to learn, just try to take your time with it (not biting off more than you can chew at a time), try to have fun and not get too frustrated with it (which can happen at times). If that happens, back off a bit, take a breather, maybe ask some questions if need be and then hit it again. It’ll be worth it in the long run
> 
> Hope all this helps somewhat. Good luck on it all and happy multiple subwoofer calibrating


Thank you! 

What if I just want to get the basic setup done myself (i.e. connect and setup everything so I am getting sound from the subwoofers) and level match the speakers and subwoofers so reference level is actually reference level? Will that be relatively easy? I'll leave the room correction/calibration stuff to a professional.


----------



## SBuger

Well the fastest and easiest way would just be to let your AVR level match everything and calibrate it all with room setup. That should put you close to reference at 0 Master Volume at wherever the AVR sets your sub and speaker trim levels at. If you have a receiver that has a version of Audyssey (especially XT 32), it can do a pretty good job usually, but others should do pretty decent as well.


----------



## SBuger

Just a post to say how things are going. No big updates with new stuff or anything after the latest PJ upgrade, although I do have a few things in mind if and when I get ready to do more (will post more below on this).

For now though, I’m just thoroughly enjoying the whole setup in this little room with all the stuff I’ve done up to this point. I think I’m pretty much up to date with all things Home Theater now     Rockin the new 4K PJ (well, its e-shift but I’m still in awes of it!!), got all my Atmos and other speakers setup the way I like, got the blacked out thing going on to help with total immersion, got the BIG screen (which I’ve moved even closer to get an even bigger feel (6.5’ eyes to 120” 16:9 screen when reclined), Plus Bass and TR bringing what I love etc. 

So, just been enjoying a whole lot of content lately over the last several months it seems. It has brought tons of joy just getting totally lost in a lot of these movies and shows!!! 

Speaking of movies, I ended up with over 25 4K movies on Black Friday that I just could not pass up with their low prices. I spent quite a bit, but saved a lot in the long run LOL 

Also, besides the 4K movies, I’ve been enjoying the heck the new ATV4K (I LOVE this thing!!) for streaming shows and series off of Netflix (they’ve got a handful of pretty darn good shows), Disney+ and Apple+ which I just LOVE so far!! I’m quite amazed at just how good the quality is on Apple+ and Disney+. On the ones with real high bit rate, I couldn’t tell a diff compared to the actual 4K disc. I did a fun experiment with the UHD 4K disc of Avengers: End Game compared to the UHD 4K version streamed from Disney+ the other day. I expected to be able to tell a diff, but nope, not once level matched anyway. Even though the streamed version is still not lossless, it’s getting so good on these really good quality streams on the better material, that’s its hard to tell the diff, if at all. I couldn’t on the one I compared. Floored me actually!!!

Watched one called *SEE* on Apple+ and loved it!!! PQ and sound (the show too) amazed me how good it was. INSANE PQ on this one!!!! Hard to believe you can get this from streaming!!! *Altered Carbon* on Netflix is another ….just WOW on all aspects!!! Then one called *Another World* on Netflix …the Atmos …JEEZ, just crazy good!!!

So there is that with the streaming, but have watched a lot of great 4K movies on disc's too that just blew me away with the quality like *Men in Black: International, Aladdin, The Lion King, Spiderman: Far From Home, Hobbs & Shaw, Hellboy (2019), John Wick 3, Overlord, Alita: Battle Angle, Dark Phoenix*, etc, just to name a few, the list goes on.

One in particular that me and the family enjoyed together was *The Lion King* (*Aladdin too*). It got ripped pretty hard by some in the review section, but we loved it!!! Great movie and very well done modernizing it (IMO anyway), awesome full band bass (with BEQ), awesome Atmos track, and Amazing picture I thought. In fact, I snapped a few stills on this one along the way that I meant to post but never got it done (I did post them in the movie section bass thread though). Lion King is some of the best and most immersive I’ve experienced in 4K UHD on the 16:9 screen. I felt the IMMERSION was off the charts in this one setting this close to the 120”. Still super sharp too with the e-shift, which is WAY cool. Actually this is part of the reason I moved my seats up a little closer recently , for a bigger more immersive feel while still staying super sharp.

A few pics of "*The Lion King*" with the iPhone7. I still don’t think these pics quite do the real image justice, especially for the immersion factor, but will give an idea. I do love me some still shots LOL ...and have really enjoyed seeing some of Craig Peer's, m0j0's and Nalleh's that they posted in their room threads lately!!! 

Mufasa is insanely cool up close!!!









There were so many awesome scenes in this movie that it was hard to pic one to post lol









The close ups in this movie were insane and so engulfing, so had to post a pic of one of those as well 









Highly recommended if you have a big 16:9 screen and or kids!!!    

Also, I checked out Avatar in 3D (one of my all-time favorites) the other day after it was brought up in the BEQ thread (in which I probably posted too many impression of it over there, but was fun and couldn’t help it LOL). I was absolutely blown away by it and watched it multiple times actually, as well as revisited several parts for demo quite a bit!! LOL. I know that may seem obsessive (LOL yes, this is how I roll most times it seems hahahha), but I just can’t seem to get enough of this one!!!! 3D is just off the charts INSANE in that Pandora world with the Navi and is still the benchmark IMO (me and @Nalleh were talking about this in his thread just yesterday, plus the 5.1 up-mixes insanely good as well and better than a lot of native Atmos/DTS:X mixes, plus the Bass and TR are off the charts crazy good as well with BEQ. Add all this to that I just love the movie as well, it makes it probably the best overall HT experience I’ve ever had in my HT. Realism at its absolute best for mind blowing Home Cinema IMO!!!!  

So, that was tons of fun, but need to move on to all the other movies I got lined up to watch and should keep me busy for months LOL

So, as far as adding new stuff and changing anything, like I was saying above up top, I’m just thoroughly enjoying it the way it is now. My Bass and TR are giving me what I love and crave in spades these days, so I’ve opted not to mess with it anymore ATM, even though I love to experiment and try to continue to push the boundaries with it. I do have about 5-6 more things I want to experiment with on the TR front at some point though, if and when I get bored or feel like I still need “MOAR” LOL. I did pick up another BK amp the other day in case I want to add more TR devices, etc  They don’t seem to make the BK amps anymore, and I love them, so I snagged it in the classifieds section a couple weeks ago!! Oh yeah, had to pick up another iNUKE 6000dsp amp as well since one of my nu6000dsps amps was trying to go out on me. I got the NX version this time. They look SO much nicer. I’d post a pic of it another and stuff too, but can’t really get to my PC right now that they are all on. That thing is running terrible!!! I need to reinstall windows on it, but just haven’t wanted to mess with it yet.

Also, I’m strongly considering building a DIY scope screen to replace my 120” 16:9 or have two screens since my current is drop down. Use that one for 16:9 content (because I think it’s perfect and SO IMMERSIVE as close as I sit to it), but then the new one in scope at about 54” x 140”. It’ll be about 4” shorter on the height compared to the 120” 16:9, but WAY wider for a LOT more immersion on these scope movies. Not sure when I’ll do this, but it WILL happen, sooner or later hahahaha 

Oh yeah, I started a TR thread over in the Bass section of the forum HERE not too long ago as well that’s been a lot of fun, since I’m so into that part of HT and is what thrills me the most  Started a Time Stamp section within that thread as well for some great demo clips (post # 2). So far all have been with BEQ, since it just makes such a night and day difference on most ALL tracks, no matter how good they may be to begin with. TOTAL GAME changer and has made nearly every movie full band just like The Incredible Hulk. IMO, if you’re a HT and Bass and TR lover for movies, it’s the best thing that’s ever came along!!!!! It has me spoiled rotten and I could NEVER, NEVER, NEVER go back to before without it    If any of you guys happen to read this and you fit into the category I just mentioned, plus have a system capable of ULF in the Bass and TR department, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND BEQ!!!

Ok guys, that’s about it for now. I’ll update when any of that stuff I just mentioned on the experiments or upgrades happens 

HAPPY HOLIDAYS and HT’ing ALL!!! (and safe travels for those of us taking trips this time of year!!!).


----------



## m0j0

Great post! I do love me some Avatar! I am waiting to receive my Christmas present from my wife, which is a mini dsp 2x4hd, then I will be all in with BEQ! Can’t wait!


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## Ladeback

Nice write up. I see you are sitting 6.5' from a 120" 16:9 screen? WOW! I have one as well, but am at 10.5'. I tried 9' and 9.5'. but that was too close for my eyes. I would love to have a 5040 or even another E shift 4 K projector. Maybe next year. I asked for rear Klipsch speakers from my wife to go to 7.1 and asked my in laws for some Micca 8" speakers and wire to get Dolby Atmos going hopefully. They don't understand what I want to accomplish in my theater, but maybe some day they will when it is done.


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## SBuger

m0j0 said:


> Great post! I do love me some Avatar! I am waiting to receive my Christmas present from my wife, which is a mini dsp 2x4hd, then I will be all in with BEQ! Can’t wait!


Thanks man!! And right on, an Avatar lover as well …cool!! 

Awesome on the 2x4HD (Christmas is always a great time and excuse to gets some more HT goodies )!!! For some reason I thought you were already an avid BEQ’er, hey, it’s never too late to start  But, you’ll HAVE to watch your whole movie collection over again LOL. 

Now that you’re BOSS equipped and ULF full range capable, I think you’ll feel the same way I do about BEQ. Seriously, with the majority of movies, once your system is up to par in the ULF department (and even low LF) for TR (and SPL as well) there is just no comparison!!!

It’s so awesome watching all these movies with ULF throughout (just like the better native 5 Star Full band monsters) instead of having to lose out on all the filtered goods below 20-30hz. It makes a world of difference!!!! Take Spiderman: far From Home for example for one of the newer releases. It’s filtered bad below 20hz, but actually really starts dropping off pretty hard between 20-30hz. With BEQ through, it restores all the way down deep in ULF to 1hz  And man, what a HUGE diff it makes. Bass and TR on this movie with BEQ is just killer and is actually one I posted some Time Stamps for in the demo section in the TR thread. 

So, just an example of one movie, there are hundreds like this that are the same way. You’re gonna LOVE BEQ!!!!!!


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## SBuger

Ladeback said:


> Nice write up. I see you are sitting 6.5' from a 120" 16:9 screen? WOW! I have one as well, but am at 10.5'. I tried 9' and 9.5'. but that was too close for my eyes. I would love to have a 5040 or even another E shift 4 K projector. Maybe next year. I asked for rear Klipsch speakers from my wife to go to 7.1 and asked my in laws for some Micca 8" speakers and wire to get Dolby Atmos going hopefully. They don't understand what I want to accomplish in my theater, but maybe some day they will when it is done.


Hey Thanks, Ladeback!!

Yeah, I’m pretty darn close huh!! Probably too close for most, but I’m a bit abnormal when it comes to most of this HT immersion stuff it seems and have kind of went off the deep end with most of it LOL. I get a taste of it, and I just want more of it  hahahaha

I get used to it I think, whether it’s TR or immersion from a large picture, then you know what happens after that … 

That said though, I hear ya, ~10’ is pretty darn nice from a 120”. In my previous setup when I had all this same gear down in my living room (before moving it all up into this room I’m in now), my eyes to screen were about 9.5’ to 120” screen and it was great. I moved up a few times just playing around, and it mostly felt too close. 

But, for whatever reason, being super close in this new room doesn’t feel like that. Yeah, its super close and very, very immersive, but I don’t get that awful too close feeling that I got if I tried it in the living room. Maybe it’s the angle I’m at when reclined or the total blackout or something else. Maybe a combo of all that, IDK. Fortunately, I feel this way though, because in this small room I’m forced to sit pretty close, at least with my subs behind the seats and the way I have the speakers and subs behind the screen up front. I could probably move back another 1’ to 1.5’ to put me at 7.5’ or 8’, but have just inched up closer and closer over time, eventually getting to where I’m at now, 6.5’. Yeah that’s SUPER close!!! LOL. BUT, I just want that super huge immersive feel for these movies. And still, for the scope mode movies (which are most), I could handle even bigger, and why I’m thinking about building a scope mode screen for these movies, putting it almost as tall as my 120” 16:9, but a lot wider, bringing a lot more immersion to this aspect mode. I’ve played around with it some so far and seems to be great on most films, I just need to make it happen for real now at some point

All that said though about being so close, if I had my choice, I think I’d rather sit farther away and have a much bigger screen to get the same sort of immersion effect, because there are drawbacks to sitting this close (but the pros FAR out way the cons to me at this point).

Cool on maybe getting a 5040 or other in the future. I think you’ll love it, but there are drawbacks/struggles with it too with the HDR, just ask Archaea  But, if you can find some good settings, it can make all the diff in the world for the HDR material, at least it has for me.

Also, cool on the extra speakers your working on adding. Rears and tops make a HUGE diff, I think you’ll love that too  It all adds up to a better, more immersive HT experience, but a lot of us have to take baby steps to get there. I know it did for me, adding what I could when I could, but has been a fun journey too!! And once you get there, it’s so worth it    

But I hear ya man, convincing the family that we NEED all this and WHY, is another story LOL.


----------



## Ladeback

SBuger said:


> Hey Thanks, Ladeback!!
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I’m pretty darn close huh!! Probably too close for most, but I’m a bit abnormal when it comes to most of this HT immersion stuff it seems and have kind of went off the deep end with most of it LOL. I get a taste of it, and I just want more of it  hahahaha
> 
> 
> 
> I get used to it I think, whether it’s TR or immersion from a large picture, then you know what happens after that …
> 
> 
> 
> That said though, I hear ya, ~10’ is pretty darn nice from a 120”. In my previous setup when I had all this same gear down in my living room (before moving it all up into this room I’m in now), my eyes to screen were about 9.5’ to 120” screen and it was great. I moved up a few times just playing around, and it mostly felt too close.
> 
> 
> 
> But, for whatever reason, being super close in this new room doesn’t feel like that. Yeah, its super close and very, very immersive, but I don’t get that awful too close feeling that I got if I tried it in the living room. Maybe it’s the angle I’m at when reclined or the total blackout or something else. Maybe a combo of all that, IDK. Fortunately, I feel this way though, because in this small room I’m forced to sit pretty close, at least with my subs behind the seats and the way I have the speakers and subs behind the screen up front. I could probably move back another 1’ to 1.5’ to put me at 7.5’ or 8’, but have just inched up closer and closer over time, eventually getting to where I’m at now, 6.5’. Yeah that’s SUPER close!!! LOL. BUT, I just want that super huge immersive feel for these movies. And still, for the scope mode movies (which are most), I could handle even bigger, and why I’m thinking about building a scope mode screen for these movies, putting it almost as tall as my 120” 16:9, but a lot wider, bringing a lot more immersion to this aspect mode. I’ve played around with it some so far and seems to be great on most films, I just need to make it happen for real now at some point
> 
> 
> 
> All that said though about being so close, if I had my choice, I think I’d rather sit farther away and have a much bigger screen to get the same sort of immersion effect, because there are drawbacks to sitting this close (but the pros FAR out way the cons to me at this point).
> 
> 
> 
> Cool on maybe getting a 5040 or other in the future. I think you’ll love it, but there are drawbacks/struggles with it too with the HDR, just ask Archaea  But, if you can find some good settings, it can make all the diff in the world for the HDR material, at least it has for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, cool on the extra speakers your working on adding. Rears and tops make a HUGE diff, I think you’ll love that too  It all adds up to a better, more immersive HT experience, but a lot of us have to take baby steps to get there. I know it did for me, adding what I could when I could, but has been a fun journey too!! And once you get there, it’s so worth it
> 
> 
> 
> But I hear ya man, convincing the family that we NEED all this and WHY, is another story LOL.


If you went with a 151" 2.35:1 scope screen the 120" would fit inside. That's what I have been wanting to do or go to a 166" 2.40:1 scope screen and 130" 16:9 inside it. I have the length to do it.

I am going to try and get my going more after the first of the year and maybe tall the boss into letting me get the Epson 5050 or 4050. I have seen a JVC NX7 for a movie, but can't afford that. Its more then I want to spend on theater seats. I am thinking of going from a 14' room to a 20' wide room. Not sure my speakers will do in it, but it has to be better then in the open room I have now. 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## SBuger

Ladeback said:


> If you went with a 151" 2.35:1 scope screen the 120" would fit inside. That's what I have been wanting to do or go to a 166" 2.40:1 scope screen and 130" 16:9 inside it. I have the length to do it.
> 
> I am going to try and get my going more after the first of the year and maybe tall the boss into letting me get the Epson 5050 or 4050. I have seen a JVC NX7 for a movie, but can't afford that. Its more then I want to spend on theater seats. I am thinking of going from a 14' room to a 20' wide room. Not sure my speakers will do in it, but it has to be better then in the open room I have now.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Good point on those 2:35:1 numbers to work with the 120" 16:9 … Thanks!! Couple things stopping that though in my particular setup. First, in my room, the closet that houses the PJ (which HAS to be in that closet to get a long enough throw distance to the screen) only allows it to throw an image so wide before the outer edges of the image get cut off by the door way opening. So, that shuts that down going that big. But also, messing around with the zoom on the 2:35:1 scope movies, the height at 58” and overall size is just a little much, even for me sitting this close. Hahahaha, I guess I do have a limit after all!!!!!! I know that doesn’t make sense, because actual 1:85 full screen 16:9 movies feel perfect at this height and size on the 120” at 58” tall. Doesn’t make sense but is what I’ve found by adjusting the 2:35 movies to fill the space that space. 54” tall is about all I can handle in this case, which puts me about 54” x 140”. I may even have to go a hair smaller as well …we’ll see. 

Yeah, I’d love to have a JVC NX7 as well, but wasn’t ready to spend that much just yet. So, the refurb 5040 it was for now. Hard to beat at that price point!!!

If you do end up going with the 5040 or the 5050, go with the 5050 if you’re an avid gamer and want 60 hz HDR 12bit. The 5040 only supports 10bit on 60hz material and is a limitation of this model, but not on the 5050. If you’re not a gamer though, no biggy and is fine on movie material in 24hz HDR 12bit. 

Cool on the room, yeah that would be a lot wider and more space to work with!!


----------



## m0j0

SBuger said:


> Thanks man!! And right on, an Avatar lover as well …cool!!
> 
> Awesome on the 2x4HD (Christmas is always a great time and excuse to gets some more HT goodies )!!! For some reason I thought you were already an avid BEQ’er, hey, it’s never too late to start  But, you’ll HAVE to watch your whole movie collection over again LOL.
> 
> Now that you’re BOSS equipped and ULF full range capable, I think you’ll feel the same way I do about BEQ. Seriously, with the majority of movies, once your system is up to par in the ULF department (and even low LF) for TR (and SPL as well) there is just no comparison!!!
> 
> It’s so awesome watching all these movies with ULF throughout (just like the better native 5 Star Full band monsters) instead of having to lose out on all the filtered goods below 20-30hz. It makes a world of difference!!!! Take Spiderman: far From Home for example for one of the newer releases. It’s filtered bad below 20hz, but actually really starts dropping off pretty hard between 20-30hz. With BEQ through, it restores all the way down deep in ULF to 1hz  And man, what a HUGE diff it makes. Bass and TR on this movie with BEQ is just killer and is actually one I posted some Time Stamps for in the demo section in the TR thread.
> 
> So, just an example of one movie, there are hundreds like this that are the same way. You’re gonna LOVE BEQ!!!!!!


I am so ready to try BEQ! Could use some tips/pointers on how to get started with it if you don’t mind. I figured if my wife buys the Mini dsp for me and complains about the bass or TR later, I can just say that I am trying to get the most out of the Christmas gift she gave me (strategy)!


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## SBuger

m0j0 said:


> I am so ready to try BEQ! Could use some tips/pointers on how to get started with it if you don’t mind. I figured if my wife buys the Mini dsp for me and complains about the bass or TR later, I can just say that I am trying to get the most out of the Christmas gift she gave me (strategy)!


^^^ Cool!! PioManiac’s walk through guide (starting on the 3rd post of the BERQ thread) can probably be better and more informative than what I could say, so be sure to go through those posts for the guide when you get ready to set up. He did a fantastic job laying it all out on how to get started and all that. But, if you still have questions or whatever, I can help. Just let me know


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## Nalleh

@SBuger : awsome update post 

It seems we are both at a stage where we have a pretty good setup that is well calibrated, where even a older more normal movie(like Avatar) can give a totally mindblowing experience  When you have reached that level, where you just keep smiling when the movie is done, and you shake your head while excaiming: WOW, that was cool!! THAT makes it all worth it 

Compared to just watching something on 42" TV, with its speaker or maybe a "awsome" soundbar, and then afterwards its like: meh, what else is on ?

Is is CRAZY thinking abaout that difference and how many people watch it like that all the time!!!!

Since it is the season, here is some tips for holiday movies that we like, and that you can enjoy with your family:

The Christmas Cronicles on Netflixx. Cool movie with Kurt Russel as Santa, LOL.

Rise of the Gurardians. Mentioned this in the BEQ thread, you need to see this in 3D! Awsome !

The Grinch(Jim Carrey one). Jim is hilarious as always, LOL, and when Cindy Lou sings "where are you christmas", it gets me every time, LOL!






The Polar Express. Insane 3D in this one and when that train rolls in: HOLY CANODDLES, THE ULF!!! Same happens to me here when this song comes along:






IDK, maybe i am getting soft, LOL.

Enjoy your holidays and a merry christmas to all


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## SBuger

^^^ Thanks man!!



Nalleh said:


> [MENTION=7521312]
> It seems we are both at a stage where we have a pretty good setup that is well calibrated, where even a older more normal movie(like Avatar) can give a totally mindblowing experience  When you have reached that level, where you just keep smiling when the movie is done, and you shake your head while excaiming: WOW, that was cool!! THAT makes it all worth it
> 
> Compared to just watching something on 42" TV, with its speaker or maybe a "awsome" soundbar, and then afterwards its like: meh, what else is on ?
> 
> Is is CRAZY thinking abaout that difference and how many people watch it like that all the time!!!!


^^^Well said 

Also, thanks so much for all the recommendations!! Because of them and what you said about Rise of the Guardians 3D the other day in the BEQ thread and now Polar Express 3D, I just ordered them off Amazon    

Very much looking forward to all, as Polar Express used to be one of our family’s all-time favorites this time of year (any time of the year actually). We even went to a Polar Express re-enactment where you get to experience it all, almost like in the movie up in a real cool town in the mountains. When we went it even snowed and was just *PURE MAGIC* in so many ways!!! One of my fondest and dearest memories ever with the family!!!

So, this one is special to us, but have never seen it in 3D, but that’s about to change  But yeah, I used to LOVE it when that train would roll in too!! And that was back in my other setup without BEQ, so I can only imagine now  

Really looking forward to Rise of the Guardians in 3D as well. Been a long time since I’ve watched the 2D version, but remember the intro being super cool and replaying it over and over on my last system.

The others, Christmas Chronicles and the Grinch, I think we’ve almost (or my daughter anyway) nearly wore them out last season she watched them so many times LOL. But that was on the TV downstairs, not in the HT. So maybe we’ll have to fire those up again now too 

Also, if you’re getting soft, then I guess I am too because I love all those moments in these shows!!!!

Thanks again for the post and Merry Christmas as well my great friend Mr. Nalleh!!!!


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## SBuger

@Nalleh – You were spot on with Polar Express in 3D  And that train for ULF is NUTS (the BEQ is brilliant on this one) ….and just out of this world 3D!!!! I was not expecting 3D like this …anytime that train is on the screen, just WOW    In fact, I don’t know that I’ve seen anything quite like it yet. Just INSANE with so many cool visuals with ALL of it. And all that snow, just spectacular!!! I’m blown away by it, just like I was with Avatar and you know how much I LOVE Avatar in 3D  Even my wife was going on and on about it, and she doesn’t usually do that LOL. With the TR and 3D, it really is just like you’re on that train for reals!!! I opened the system up a little more this time than I usually do with the family (especially with her), and I think for one of the first times she was finally able to understand what super capable TR and BIG visuals (Especially in 3D) are truly capable of and “what and why” I’ve been chasing it trying to get it to this level over the years. So cool that she finally got to experience it like I do and feel the same way about it  Now she won’t think I’m so crazy LOL 

Watching it tonight as a family was just magical in so many ways. Thanks, so much for the recommendation!!!! 

Hope you are still enjoying your vaca/trip over the holidays!!! We leave on ours tomorrow. So, this one in the HT was an awesome one to end on before we go and sure has a way of putting you in the Christmas spirit 

I ordered Rise of the Guardians in 3D as well, but it didn't make it in yet for some reasons. Will have to watch it when we get back.


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## Nalleh

Awsome, @SBuger !! I am SOOO glad you enjoyed it with your family . The "magic" was what i was aiming for 
Watching a christmas movie with a heartwarming story, with big awsome visuals, crazy 3D and insane sound with awsome TR is a perfect way to welcome the christmas season  And hearing that you wife loved it too is really cool to hear  

I think one reason we both are enjoying 3D so much now, is we both upgraded our PJ’s, and i noticed a BIG difference in 3D performance, compared to the older PJ’s i’ve had. It is flawless on the RS600 i have now, while i had some trouble with crosstalk on the older ones. And of course the picture quality in general has improved in these newer ones.
I also have the Darbee and mCable now(both work in 3D too), which i feel both contribute to a better picture, so there is several things that make the 3D experience better nowadays, even on these older movies 

A couple other tips for magic 3D: Sammy’s Adventure, and The House Of Magic. Both animated and they are truly breathtaking 

Yup, having a awsome time on vaca, and nearing christmas eve now, so wishing a merry christmas to you and your family too


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## SBuger

^^^ Thanks so much @Nalleh and well said!!!

Yep, your right ..I think our upgraded PJ’s helped a ton!!! I loved 3D before and was pretty darn happy (or I thought I was anyway lol). I don’t remember it being even close to this good though. I think mainly for me, is just better PQ in general and then WAY brighter, plus sharper too!!! (Awesome that you are using the Darbee to help with this!!) Plus, setting a little closer as well is helping with more emersion and depth of field (foreground, background and everything in between). Add all that together and I think that why its wowing me more than ever.

It’d be crazy to try to name everything that I thought was beyond amazing for the 3D in a Polar Express, but they all just had my jaw on the floor like never before it seemed. Blows my mind that they can create something like that in 3D to look that crazy realistic!!! 

No way could words ever do it justice, but that train in SO MANY scenes looked and felt like you could touch it (or grab it, or climb on it, or you WERE on it) and/or it was just going to steam roll right over or through you in all it’s HUGE and MAGICAL glory!!! And that runaway scene with the tracks up and down in 3D …. WHAT!!!???    Seriously, we just could not believe what we were experiencing with the visuals and feel of it all with the TR and bass doing its thing in conjunction with BEQ. I think it’s the most realistic experience I’ve ever had in my theater to date and is now my new number 1 demo scene/scenes (even better than Avatar in ways). So many scenes like this as well with ULF involved that gives that super-fast FALLING feeling that just pushes the realism to extraordinary levels.

LOL, I could go on all night with all the scenes that WOW’d me to new levels, so will try to shut it down there hahaha. That said, when we get back after the holidays, I may just have to add some ‘Time Stamps’ to the TS section on TR thread from this movie for some of those killer TR scenes, as well as from Avatar 

Thanks for more 3D suggestions!!! Also thank so much the warm Holiday wishes and sounds like you’re having a great one ...so happy to hear that!!!


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## lizrussspike

Great room with great TR @SBuger. I bet that train coming in is just amazing in your set up. I remember that the first time, and that scene shook the room. Would love to demo some bass monster flicks in your theater...


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## SBuger

lizrussspike said:


> Great room with great TR @SBuger. I bet that train coming in is just amazing in your set up. I remember that the first time, and that scene shook the room. Would love to demo some bass monster flicks in your theater...


Hey thanks for the super nice words my friend!!! Yeah that train coming in at the start of the movie has been one of my long-time favorites and has always been a great demo scene, even before BEQ came along. That scene really is a fantastic scene for bass and TR on so many levels. It starts easy and then just builds and builds in intensity. The wife said it was like some crazy earthquake along with the phrase “Good God!!” LOL. There were a lot of scenes that made her say ‘Good God!!’ from the insane TR in this movie . I got a kick out of it, because that’s how I was feeling about it too, but she usually tries not to say anything about it …1, because she doesn’t always just love a ton of Slam and TR and doesn’t want to rain on my parade, and 2, she knows it’ll probably just fuel me into trying to get more of it if she says something like "that was awesome" LOL . Plus, I opened it up a little more this time than I usually do when she's watching with me. She did say she thought it was awesome and felt so real afterwards, which was cool. The TR was pretty hardcore in quite a few areas and I thought it may have been a little too much for her at times, but it seems she was cool with it ...this time anyway  It shocked her pretty good though hahaha. Hell it shocked and and kind of scared me on some of those scenes LOL Pretty exhilarating stuff, I live for this kind of TR 

Well, your welcome anytime, but I’m willing to bet its more similar than different with all the TR and Killer PJ you got going on with your setup!!


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## lizrussspike

Thanks @SBuger, and merry Christmas.


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## SBuger

*Update Time:* TR ya'll!! ... huh, what ….more TR!!?? 

Hey guys, I guess it’s time for a bit of an update. I said I’d update if I changed anything with the TR gear, so I guess I’m a little behind here and been posting most it over in the TR thread, which has just been going bonkers lately.

I've been running my Subwoofer Riser just set on the ground instead of open baffle on isolators like the original BOSS and preferred it like this for different reasons. Primarily it gave me a lot more low end TR and I enjoyed the extra fullness from SPL it brought from under me. This combined with all my other gear of BK LFE’s, Crowson MA’s and VNF 18’s parked behind my seats gave me tons of TR joy for quite a while now.

But with the new HoverBOSS where tubes are placed around the drivers sealing them, I had to try it and makes a tremendous difference in low end TR compared to the open baffle BOSS. It kind of works like an air pump I guess you can say like Nalleh said in his thread about it.

So, I got this implemented, as well as another new TR addition for chest punch, the BossBack. I tried it in Open Baffle mode, as well as a sealed version of it on my seatback. Me likey ..A LOT!!!  This thing is wicked!!!

Also, I moved my BK LFE’s back to cant-levered mount back behind my seats (behind the armrests). And mounted farther out this time. JEEZ what a difference this made too!!! These things are Lethal feeling!!!!

So, on with some pics of each …

*First up, the HoverBOSS*

I kind of lucked out and didn’t have to build another platform to implement there HB. I just flpped the riser that I had been using as a “Subwoofer Riser” and put another piece of plywood with holes cut out in it for the chair to sit on and the MAs to press against under the seat feet. Actually this allowed for me to try it without flipping the platform over too, with the tubes sealing the holes cuts in this new piece of plywood.

This is how I tried it first with the drivers facing up and tubes below. 

First pic is with no drivers in it:









But before I get too far, here it what it looked like from the bottom section where the tubes will seal it to the floor when flipped back over:









And back to what it used to look like, but with the tubes under neath sealing the holes:









*Impressions:* Was awesome, especially in the single digits, but this first time around felt a little soft in comparison to what I was used to. Adding more tubes as isolators really helped.

So, on to the “normal” way of HoverBOSS:

Ready for seats:









First MLP seat loaded on:









*Impressions:* Long story short after some tweaks with air pressure in the tubes etc, this thing is AMAZING, especially for single digit TR. It’s unmatched in the singles compared to anything Ive tried before.

*Next up, the BossBack*

It’s basically a driver mounted to the back of your setback. Some of the guys in the TR thread cut holes in the backs of their seats for the driver to fire into, but I wanted to try it without cutting a hole first just to see if I liked it or not. So, with the building of a little backpack like platform, I mounted the driver to it (JBL 12”) to the platform + spacers to keep the driver cone from touching the seatback. Then strapped it to my seat with ratchet straps. Worked like a charm!!! LOL 

So, I tried it in two different versions. Open Baffle and Sealed as well.

Pics and impressions of both …

My HT seats are leather and the backs are curved, which made it a bit of a pain, but figured something out that wasn't too bad. Seemed to work great. I just used some scrap pieces and cut out the curve contour with the jig saw. Would have been way faster if I didn't have to mess with that, but gotta do what you gotta do LOL

So, nothing super duper fancy here, but got done what I needed I think without having to use any screws or cut any holes so far. The straps worked great for a test and can just stay like that I think if I decide I don't want to mess with putting screws into the back of my seats. I used the same ones from Amazon that m0j0 used to strap down his seats with. They work great!!

So, on with some pics ...

The material:









Bottom. See the contour of the spacers I had to use to keep the driver/cone from touching the seatback:









Outer:









Ready to be strapped down or screwed into the seatback:









Another View:









That straps I used. Nice little black straps that are easy to work with:









And with it strapped down to the seat back. I used wash rags to keep from marring the driver this first time around for test in case I didn't like it and wanted to take the driver back (I had to go buy one). I used 2 straps that got it really snug:









And a could shots with it mounted to the seat and reclined in the HT room:









And one more angle from the side: My VNF behind the seat is still in there, but had to drop it down to the floor so the JBL driver magnet would clear:









---------------

*Impressions:*

This thing is freaking awesome!!!! It delivers some wicked TR to the chest cavity!!! This thing hits like a sledgehammer and compliments the HoverBOSS (and other TR gear in my setup) VERY well. 

Is it miles better than with my VNFs setting up higher closer to my back?. Yes and no. Because of no SPL, my VNF feel and sound fuller and create some pressure, whereas the no SPL BOSSback doesn't. BUT, what it does do, is creates more mechanical vibrations that beat the VNF sub. Everything, and I mean every little detail can be felt, especially from about 30hz up. And it's so good that it will seriously fool you into thinking you are getting thumped hard by huge midbass SPL. It hits super hard and can even kind of cause pain to the chest if really pushed (a good pain that is ).

Even though it's hitting me super hard, it still lacks the "internal pressure" that can be felt within the chest cavity that the little 1200d MBM use to give me in my last setup where it was so lethal feeling that it would make my chest ache sometimes for quite a while after a demo session. But, it does have more TR/shake/vibration if that makes sense. 

Now, I needed to try it sealed as well and see/feel/hear what the differences were, hopefully bringing more of that "internal chest cavity pressure" and hopefully not hurt the ears. If not, it's still awesome though!!! 

*Next up, the Sealed Version of BossBack*

I just used the same BB rig and used a 16" tube to seal it to the seat back.

Here's a few pics ...



















And another with seat back attached to seat and can see the tube in there. I don't watch with the head rest tilted forward like this, I just pushed it all the way forward because I wanted to see what kind of material was under there. I probably should have never got them since I prefer it all the way back. I do love the seats though. If I unzip the that cover, it's just leather with no wood backing. 









*Impressions:*

OH HELL YEAH ...now we are talking!!!!!!!!  

Big diff for me, more natural and fuller feeling, with pressure in the chest cavity. Compared to the open baffle version. 

WOW!!!!!!!!  I'm thrilled with this and is what I've been chasing ever since I had my 1200d behind me in my last setup down stairs parked right behind me chest high on top of my sealed 18. 

I had about 15-20 minutes to demo when I first tried it out so I queued up some of the same stuff I played with the open baffle version to compare. I used the club scene starting at about 20:00 in the 3rd episode of Dracula on Netflix. (This movie has killer midbass in this section and ULF wobble throughout all episodes with BEQ!!!). Then ended with Iron Man 4K (BEQ’d of course). Dracula was at -15mv and Iron Man was at -20mv. 

I tell you what, this freaking thing pounds in sealed mode and will pressurize your chest. So, NOT just TR shake and vibration like in open baffle mode. At least it effected me like this anyway and was very reminiscent of back in my best MB chest crushing sessions with the 1200d positioned the way I had it in my last setup where my chest would ache for quite a while afterwards from the beating and pressure within on short demo sessions. I probably listened to those beats for too long without stopping, then ran my favorite Iron Man scene as well a few times, which I think put the finishing brutality on my chest cavity LOL My chest ached afterwards for a while like it used to in my last setup that just crushed midbass chest slam with the ported MBM behind me chest high. YAY, I GOT IT BACK!!!!!  Plus it's more detailed too with it actually being attached to the seat back. 

*Ok, so on to the next, BK LFE’s mounted canti-levered farther behind the armrests*

You can see them mounted to the seat.









Another angle from above:









Made a pretty big diff in TR feel from the BK LFE's mounted a little farther out canti-levered than what they were and especially a huge diff from them being under the seats!!! These things can be terrifyingly scary feeling!!!   I LOVE these BK LFE’s in the mix!!!!!!! They are just so brutal in their wheelhouse of power in that 8-10hz to 30hz range, especially mounted like this and nothing can match them in this area that I have found so far in my setup. 

------------

*Ending thoughts on it all*
So, all combined together, dang ya’ll, I’m beyond thrilled with it right now and is giving me the kind of TR I've always dreamed of for these movies at my lower MV listening levels. And I thought it was pretty crazy before LOL

HoverBOSS is Killer!! So is the new BossBack and the BK LFE’s mounted directly to the seats canti-levered out a little farther behind!!!! But as good as the HoverBOSS is, I have to admit that the Subwoofer Riser I was using could hang (better actually in some areas), but no way could it beat it in the singles. Overall they just feel a little different, probably because the HB is floated vs un-floated. BOTH (actually all 3 versions) are killer with all the other TR gear running in the mix with it though. 

So, the question is, am I totally satisfied yet?? Are we ever here at AVS!!?? Hahahaha. I think the only thing that could maybe be brought up even more to match the extreme intensity of everything else above the singles digits, is yes maybe more single digit TR. But that is just being very very picky and is pretty crazy with just the 6 JBLs HB under the seats. I’ve been spitballing a little bit with the TR king himself (Nalleh) and may possibly try a few other versions of HB, including adding my 3x SI DS4-18’s as canti-levered HoverBOSS in addition to the 6 JBL 12’s underneath the seating. Not sure if I will try to tackle this and see what it could bring to the single digit HB party or not. I’m sure it would KILL though!!! Always something new to try in this crazy HT world, especially in the TR department it seems!!! LOL

Anyways, there it is guys, all the latest


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## Nalleh

^^Wicked update, Shelby 

I was just going to ask when you were going to update in here 

Your setup is just off the charts cool, love it, and i can imagine it will pound you silly, LOL!

Great job, my TR brother


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## lizrussspike

Amazing update @*SBuger*! You have me looking at BK LFE's again. I have two ends to my sectional that I can't put a JBL underneath. The back addition is SWEET! but the wife would never go with that. You have my wheels spinning Sir!


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## gpmbc

Wow, awesome update!! Thanks for the detailed description of how everything is set up and the individual contribution from each. What is the dimensions of mounting plate for the Buttkicker? It extends out pretty far from the back of the couch like a mini diving board...sounds like a good thing for sure😎.


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## SBuger

Hey thanks a lot you guys!!!
@Nalleh - Yeah I kind of fell back into the rut of waiting to update until it’s a big one huh instead of a little bit a long the way 
@lizrussspike - The BKs can be crazy good, they just have to be integrated well I think. Even though I love them and have for a long time, there was a time not too long ago that I had them out of my system for a while because I couldn’t get them in the mix the way I liked. Sometimes you just gotta try again LOL. 

Yeah the back addition is pretty darn cool I must say. If you do end up getting it passed with the wife, m0j0 over in the TR thread made his look pretty nice with some black spandex to help cover it up. May work well for you to if you end up with one.
@gpmbc - For the the BK mount I just picked up a piece of 5.5” x 10’ x I think 3/4” inch wood at Lowes. Then I cut it to size to fit under the 2 armrests of the seat running front to back and sticking out enough to get some length on it. Yep kind of like a little mini diving board!!  It seems to have just intensified these thing like crazy and a lot more headroom with them free air like this. I drive them pretty darn hard and haven’t really bottomed them yet that I know of.

I just unscrewed the the feet that were on my HT seats and used a bolt in the same threads to attach the plank with the BKs on it. Pretty simple but super effective. 

Thanks again, guys, for stopping by and the good words!!!


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## SBuger

_*** UPDATE TIME: I got a lot of awesome new TR stuff going on lately so thought I'd better gets some updates in so I don't get too far behind. I've got two updates. Will post this one and the next in another post following. I posted all this over in the TR thread so I'll just copy and paste for a cross post for the fast and easiest since it's already typed up._

*The BK + JBL BossBACK:*   

Ok guys, I've been wanting to try this because I had a feeling it could be beyond insane, and oh man is it ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The BKBB ya'll ....just when I thought I had some crazy ass TR intensity going on with the MAs, BK's Canti-levered, HB and BB that could'nt get much better, things just got WAY MORE INSANE feeling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I mean like* ....O... M....G ...WTF TR INSANITY and SHEER BRUTALITY* like I've never felt before 

I ran through the Tank Battle scene in FURY like I've been doing the last couple of days and I mean to tell you what. I've never in my life felt anything this mind blowingly terrorizing and real feeling in my entire life or 4-5 years of TR'ing. I've never been this realistically terrorized by TR before.

It felt like I was actually getting shot (I've never really been shot so can't say for sure, but...) with every cannon blast and gun shot!!!!! And the recoil ....WTF are you kidding me!!!???? Then the engines of the tanks etc felt like it's going to hurt something within my body in addition to all the gunfire and cannon blasts. Seriously, like the best GOOD HURT I've ever experienced from my rig for movie bass TR. Words do not even do this justice, but all of this just feels like it I'm getting pounded by the most awesome, brutal bass in the world that is just absolutely shocking my whole body (not just the chest area) to the core. Talk about adrenaline spike and flight or flight. I played it though at -20mv and then at -15mv. Both were just BEYOND INSANE. Afterwards I felt like I had just been through the ringer and was worn out and frazzled!!!! hahahahha Holy Freaking Hell x 100!!!!!! :0 Now this is the kind of intisity that I've been looking for all these 4-5 years of chasing TR. I thought I had it recently with adding the BB and yes it was insane and took it to a whole other lever of craziness and awesome, but this easily more than doubled it ..probably even tripled or quadrupled, or more. Just complete insanity I tell you LOL

Also checked out some of the Dracula club scene in chapter 3 at 20:00 that I love for that music beat. Felt like the music was punching a hole in my chest with that insane good hurt, like way harder than ever before. Plus also checked out a few scenes that have serious ULF. It added here as well and brings it up higher to balance super nice with the underneath from the HB and other TR devices. Also, I just ran the BK totally flat in the mix for now with no LPF, LS's or NHS's, all the way up to crossover point. 

-----------

So here it is. Not fancy at all but gets the job done. I'll attach a few pics. No tube this time either, just JBL driver and BK




















A shot with BKBB attached before reclined. You can see the other BK's mounted down below Canti-Levered:









Close up attached to seat (still using the straps ATM):









Then reclined:









Another angle:









And then with the VNF pushed up into place as close as I could get it. But will soon be converted to Canti-Levered HB duty:









OH NO'z ....started on cutting the holes in a piece of plywood for the 3x 18's for HoverBOSS Canti-Lever 









^^^ Probably won't get a chance to finish it up until first part of this next week, but picked up my tubes and the extra wood I needed.

Anyway guys ....the BK in addition to the JBL for BB .....GOOD GOD fella's!!!!! This thing is no joke at all and takes it to a whole new level of TR insanity and then some. Try it if you guys think you can handle or want even more of that awesome violence and realism in all areas LOL    

EDIT: Oh yeah, I meant to say that I'm using the other channel of the iNuke6000DSP for the BK LFE with no limiter (so about 1200watts) . The JBL is on the other channel with it limited to about 250w


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## SBuger

_***Second part of the UPDATE_

A sneak peek of the MEGA HB in the works . Still needs the drivers screwed down and more bracing to join the two HB’s together, plus maybe a top piece for the CLHB portion to match the front to look more complete, plus help brace it more. Probably will be into next week before I get a chance to finish it up, but has been a blast working on it so far!!!

Got the SI DS4-18 drivers pulled from the VNF cabs. These things are pretty big and heavy at around 50lbs a piece:









Got the 20” normal BELL tubes double sided taped to help seal them to the platform:









Platform built for the CLHB”









A bit more progress with drivers set in but not screwed down yet:









Another angle:









And a look underneath the CLHB with tape and painters plastic to help seal:









Damn, those 18's are beasts compared to the JBL 12's. I can't wait to see what they bring to the TR party


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## Nalleh

^ Friggin’ hell !!!


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## luv2fly3

Can you even see the screen clearly as you're being jolted around by the TR with all of that in place? My word. 

And just to be clear, you screwed JBLs and BKs to the back of your seats? I don't think I could do that to my recliners with what I paid for them. But yeah, I'm sure that does the trick! 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## SBuger

luv2fly3 said:


> Can you even see the screen clearly as you're being jolted around by the TR with all of that in place? My word.
> 
> And just to be clear, you screwed JBLs and BKs to the back of your seats? I don't think I could do that to my recliners with what I paid for them. But yeah, I'm sure that does the trick!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


LOL ..surprisingly yes, but it can get pretty crazy for sure 

For the JBL and BK on the seatback, nothing is screwed in, yet. I may end up doing that, or may not. For now, I’m just using a couple ratchet straps to tightly secure the little mini platform (that the JBL and BK is bolted to) to the seatback. Works like a charm so far.

Here's a couple pics that shows it pretty good (These were taken before I put the BK on the there, but is the same little platform for the seat back). Scroll up 4 to 5 posts and you can see more pics of the platform build if you didn't see that.



















I wanted to test it first without having to cut or screw into the seating, because I paid quite a bit for mine too and was a bit concerned about messing them up if I didn't like it. The straps actually worked way better than I thought they would LOL. 

I’ll never be without one of these on my seatback ever again with the insane difference it makes, no matter what it takes to attach it 

Highly Recommended!!!


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## Nalleh

Thinking about it, i wonder if the strap itself helps adds feeling to your back ! Look at it like a guitar string, only a BIG ULF string getting plucked RIGHT behind your back. On my BB, if i reach my hand behind and touch the board it is mounted on while playing content, the whole thing vibrates, and on yours all that vibration gets transfered onto the strap going around your seatback, helping get those vibrations reeeeally close to your back.


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## SBuger

^^ I never really thought about it like that, but makes sense and sure could be helping in that way.


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## SBuger

*UPDATE:* **Crosspost with TR thread *HERE*. I just basically copied and pasted since it was already written up.

*The MEGA HoverBOSS *   

Got this bad boy going!!!!!!! I got to check it out pretty good today. Will show some pics first, some settings, some objective measurements (FR and VS), then of course the subjective with IMPRESSIONS 

I took quite a few pics, so hope you don't mind that I posted most of them. I don't know about you guys, but I always love seeing pics when folks post and talk about stuff for a visual.

So, I just picked up with where I left off the other day with the last update. I also put a top on the CLHB part to match the front HB. I think it made it look nicer, plus gives a nice full platform for support. It worked out nice too, because I ended up liking the back of my seating closer to the 18's vs farther out and the plywood top like the front part worked great for this (you'll see in the pics where I moved the seating closer to the 18's CL).

A few different views with no seating to get a good look at it. The thing is pretty darn rigid, which is a good thing for BOSS or HoverBOSS:



























And on goes the MLP seat:









And a few shots of the insanity from the back. I love the look of ALL THAT TR HORSE POWER!!! 









Then ended up liking the feel of it better with the drivers closer to the seats, so that they are almost directly under my upper torso now. They are a little farther behind than that, but still pretty close. Closer than the BK's. I preferred the feel of the 18's CL closer, while I like the feel of the BK LFE's a little farther out:




































And a couple shots from behind ....ooooo ahhhh look at that TR FIREPOWER ...YEAH!!!! 


















-----------

Settings that I'm currently using for everything. I still need to try some of Aron's curves, but am absolutely loving these for now. 

LPF for LFE: 90hz set in the AVR. Crossovers to speakers set to 90hz as well.

*HB (6x JBL 12’s)*
LS @ 15hz/+7db/0.8Q
LS @ 10hz/+3db/0.9Q
NHS @ 10hz/-3db/0.9Q w/ +3db level boost
NHS @ 12hz/-5db/0.9Q w/ +5db level boost
LPF @ 40hz set in BKA-1000N amp
In Phase (not inverted)

*CLHB (3x SI DS4-18's)*
LS @ 15hz/+7db/0.8Q
LS @ 10hz/+3db/0.9Q
NHS @ 10hz/-3db/0.9Q w/ +3db level boost
NHS @ 12hz/-5db/0.9Q w/ +5db level boost
LPF is just crossover set to 90hz in AVR (same as other subs)
In Phase (not inverted)

*BossBack (1x JBL 12 + 1x BK LFE)*
--JBL 12
LPF is just crossover set to 90hz in AVR (same as other subs)
In Phase (not inverted)
--BK LFE
LPF is just crossover set to 90hz in AVR (same as other subs)
In Phase (not inverted)

*BK LFE’s (2x - seat mounted Canti-Levered behind MLP seat armrests)*
LS @ 15hz/+7db/0.8Q
NHS @ 10hz/-3db/0.9Q w/ +3db level boost
NHS @ 12hz/-5db/0.9Q w/ +5db level boost
LPF @ 60hz set in BKA-1000N amp
In Phase (not inverted)

*Crowson MA’s (6x - 2 per seat)*
LS @ 10hz/+3db/0.9Q
LS @ 15hz/+7db/0.8Q
NHS @ 12hz/-5db/0.9Q w/ +5db level boost
NHS @ 30hz/-12db/0.9Q
LPF @ 50hz set in BKA-1000N amp
In Phase (not inverted)

Plus and extra 6db LS @ 12hz Q0.9 not shown here (I've been putting it in the BEQ's, so all devices get it for now).
------------

OK with all that, now for some measurements of SPL and TR. I get a LOT of SPL way into the singles from both the HB and the CLHB in my room. They combine pretty darn good too, along with the BB which isn't near as high of SPL until about 55hz and over. In fact, the CLHB, HB and BB combined makes up pretty much most of my FR, with the two side subs on the side walls and the one at the front only contributing a little bit (not shown here). Not sure why the SPL on the left showed in 10db increments instead of 5 when I saved it, oh well. It could probably look better for a perfect FR, but damn, it just sounds so good as is and don't really want to PEQ any of it other than lifts on the bottom end with LS's etc. 










So next, since I had REW up and running for the FR sweep, I just went ahead and ran the TR measurements as well with VS. I don't normally use the sweeps and have always liked the white noise better, but thought I'd run these and show'm for something different. I was going to run the White Noise as well, but ran out of time. I may or may not mess with it now though, IDK. 

Ok, so for all the TR (VS with the iPhone 7) measurements, I used three different locations on the seating to try to see what's going on better for each, for a better overall visual, as I now have TR coming at me from everywhere  So, from left to right is as follows: LEFT: mid seat cushion, MIDDLE: Back of seat cushion involving the lower seatback, RIGHT: Seatback only about chest high (phone fits nicely in that crevice almost flat).

All measurements done at -20mv and reclined with all TR devices active. Also, I forgot that I usually have 6db more LS at 12hz than what is shown here on the REW sweeps, as I have been putting in in the BEQ's for now, but need to change that. I'm also not showing that in the settings I listed up above either.

Sweep 1hz and up with REW:









And now one from Iron Man where he fly's over to kick some butt. This one I did have the 6db extra LS at 12hz that I've been using lately. I took this reading where he breaks the sound barrier. Dayum ...look at those singles digits hitting up a little above 1e+00!!   LOL and we just thought VS was broke under 10hz in the past when we wouldn't get much or anything from it. There is nothing wrong with it, we just needed to get more singles digit power to match up to the 10hz and over!!!!! hahahaha









So, not too shabby at all me thinks as far as VS's go at -20mv. With the 3 different pics lined up in the pics I think this may give a little better idea of what's going on in the seat at different locations and may somewhat give a visual as to what it might feel like as a whole (at least intensity wise at all frequencies) when all combined when reclined. But, that said, TR measurements can never truly show what it actually feels like, but are good for the objective and to show what's happening across the board.

-----------

So with that said and out of the way, and most importantly, how does it FEEL!!!???

Basically ......OMG are you freaking kidding me!!!!!!!!! HOLY HELL, YA'LL!!!!!!!!!!!!  

Words and phrases that come to mind: Insane, Violent, Visceral, Terrifying, Absurd, Enormous, Engulfing, Power House, Explosive, Dynamic, Super Potent, Super Realistic, Heart Race Inducing, Fight or Flight Inducing, Panic Inducing at times, Exhilarating, Euphoric, Refined and Detailed, and of course just flat out Mind Boggling!!!! The list could go on I guess, but all I can think of for now LOL

It took what I was thrilled with before with HB and all other TR devices and made it even better, making it all feel more complete and just that much more powerful and engulfing in every way. 

I'm shocked at what this thing can do across the TR board. From the mid bass chest assault, to the LF and into the single digit ULF depths, all with amazing detail and precision. From flat out brutalize and scare the crap out of you to super subtle and everything in between. -20mv is insane, but -15mv and upwards is pretty gosh darn absurd, but I LOVE it and pretty much meets my wildest TR dreams for the bass in these movie sound tracks, which BEQ brings full band. 

I checked out some of my favorites today that I'm so familiar with, including FURY Tank Battle Scene, the new Terminator Dark Fate and Iron Man. The *singles* are just ABSOLUTELY CRAZY!!!!! Take Fury for example, the Recoil from those Tank Blasts, JEEEEEEEEEEZ, it feels like its sucking me down to the ground and then blasting me back up to the ceiling. Or like my seat is trying to buck or throw me out of it with its insane explosive movement. Just friggin crazy I tell ya!!!!!    I dint take any VS's of these recoil scenes (there are tons of them), but it wouldn't surprise me if some of them weren't hitting up around 1e+01 in the single digits, even at -20mv. It's is just complete INSANITY the power of the mega HB rig down super low!!!! These explosive single digit transients can be pretty darn terrifying. It crazy too that it seems like it can just keep on bringing it. 

So there is that with FURY. Terminator Dark Fate is completely insane too, as is Iron Man. 

But last night, I was watching some more episodes of "The Witcher" on Netflix. I was totally blown away by just how realistic is feels and sounds overall. And the singles in this are just killer too and makes this show what it is IMO. If for no other reason, this series needs to be watches for the ULF action!!! This and Dracula!!! 

Another thing that I'm loving with it as well, is the SPL from the HB, CLHB (and BB somewhat I guess). The sound, fullness, weight and even pressure I'm getting from it is pretty awesome. Like even in the singles for weight and pressure. I really don't even need my other subs, but I still have them contribute a little which helps some overall. 

So, I think it's safe to say that I'm over the moon elated with the TR rig now. 

Ok, I'll stop gushing over it now I guess LOL Is there anything I don't like about it? Well, one thing is that during some of these hardcore single digit transients (like in FURY), my outside seats are jumping on the platform when I get much above about -20mv and can create a knocking sound from the MA's banking on the wood etc. I guess I either need to reconnect my seats back together to help keep them down and/or get some damn weights (like I said I was going to do but haven't done so yet). Also some super thin felt or something may help. Also, if I put BB on the seatback of the other chairs, that'll help give them some weight too. I've got 2 more JBL's to do this, just haven't yet. 

Ok guys, pretty long post, but felt like there was a lot that needed posted about it.


----------



## gpmbc

Awesome post! Always dig your in depth descriptions and pics.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Thanks man!!


----------



## Nalleh

Awsome work man. So much has happened in just the last few weeks, it is like a total revamp, LOL

It is so neatly packaged, it is truly a work of art, man 

Your setup is my favourite one in here 

(exept for my own, LOL.)


----------



## SBuger

Thanks bro!! LOL, yeah lots of changes in the last few weeks. The crazy thing is, every variant configuration of the HB and HB+CLB and same with the BB has been pretty fantastic and WAY more similar than different. I could be happy with any of them, but in the end landed on this one. With demoing a variety of great movies and series over the last couple of days, I’m finding that the HB + CLHB is having to be backed down some, as they combined so we’ll together (I didn't realize just how well) and can be a bit overpowering with the soundtrack at times. So, headroom out the wazoo I guess you could say. I had to back off each HB and CLHB down about 4db a piece to get about were I was at before adding the CLHB to the mix. It was PERFECT feeling intesity before I added it. Otherwise, it’s a bit too thick sometimes or something if that makes sense. Seems to be about right now I think. 

And thanks, I guess it did kind of end up neatly packaged huh LOL. TR art …hmmm a new thing maybe haha. Everything just seemed to fit together pretty nice and easily for a clean look.

And your setup is awesome in every way and gonna be even better once all tied together with your new MEGA sleds!!! You’ll still have the VNF’s in the mix too. I’m thinking your’s will be the strongest performer of all of ours!!! You’ll still br TR King!!


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## SBuger

Another *UPDATE* with the sealing of the "Tubes of Hover" on the MEGA HoverBOSS I just posted about up above last week. I'll just post a link to it over in the TR thread this time rather than copy and past it all if anyone is interested HERE


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## SBuger

*UPDATE:* Cross post with the TR thread since this is mainly a TR update.

*More BK LFE's!!!!!! YEEHAW!!!!!*   

Now running "7" of these bad boys now covering all 3 seats. 4 Canit-Levered behind each arm rest spanning across the back hanging out like diving boards and also 3 more on each seatback as MBK + JBL for each seat as well. 

I've been running just the BK's 3 just on the MLP, but now with 4 more, a total of 7 finishes it out nicely for all seats. PLUS, I connected all 3 seats together in a little different way from in the past, now using 2x4's instead of clamps, and worked like a charm. Way better than with clamps from before. Since the HTmarket seats don't interlock, I had to "DIY it"  

So, some pics first ...

2 more BK's for the outer seats mounted on boards for Canti-Lever:









Then mounted to the seats. Actually these were already mounted on my MLP but thought I'd go ahead and show how I mounted them to hang out behind the armrests. Same on the outer seats as well, but they only have one armrest and they just butt up to the MLP seat in the middle and are connected so that one of the MLP's CLBK's acts as the other armrest of the outside seats. I only showed the MLP seat here though:



























^^^ If any of you guys have this style of HT seating and want to run some BK LFE's mounted directly to the seating instead of attached to your HB platform, this is a really easy and super effective way to do it. It seems to give them a ton of leverage, which is awesome!!!

......And what the BK's mounted Canti-Levered look like with all 3 seats (no seat backs yet) lined up and connected together on top of the MHB platform. In both of these next 2 pics you can see the Crowson MAs in there as well under the inner seat feat of each seat:



















----------------

Now on to the other 2 new BK LFE's for MBK to go with the 2 JBLs for the outer seats for MBB:









And all 3 MegaBossBack's ready to go  I'm still using the ratchet straps since they seem to work so darn well. I had to run to Lowes and pick up 2 more. I thought I had enough but only had a 4 pack. The ones from Lowes are Neon green, but I needed them NOW!!! LOL I wasn't going to wait until Amazon gets the black ones to me in a week or more with the corona virus messing up all the shipping times: Also, yes I'm still running them open baffle, and surprisingly, these friggin' JBL 12's in open baffle bring it like this. At least for movies. Like some pretty darn serious feeling MB TR in the chest. I even get a fair amount of SPL out of them above 50hz or so. Still need to try cutting a hole. Will probably do that on the right outer seat to try it out at some point. I'm sure it'll be even better, but for now, it's making me super happy the way they are now and working with the rest of the bass and TR gear!!! 










------------

And all mounted and set up with 7 BK LFE's now helping to bring the TR madness in conjunction with the other gear!!! Got TR!!!??? ...yep I think so 


















Got my "Wire Management" under a lot better control this time too!!!  Jeez ..tons of wires!!! The left BK's sticker on the MLP seat got peeled off accidentally, so it's a bit ugly ... but oh well, they are going to be getting hush boxes anyway + soundfoam. 



















--------------

*Thoughts on it all:*

DAAAAAAYUM!!!!!!!! 7 BK LFE's all working together doing their thing is NO JOKE!!!!! Like seriously!!!!!

With all 3 seats connected together with the 2x4 across the back, their synergy and working as "ONE" together feels like a" BK LFE pack from HELL"!!!!! LOL Then combined with the MHB, JBLs as BB in conjunction with the MBK's on the seat backs, plus the MA's .....OH MY GOODNESS!!!!! The TR has a FEROCITY to it that I haven't quite experienced quite like this yet. It is just SO DAMN MEAN feeling!!!!!! What I've always loved about the BK LFE's for movie bass in their wheelhouse just feels so magnified now. They love working in packs!!!! I'm sure there is more shake, but what I'm mainly talking about here is that type of TR that I seem to LOVE the most ....that insanely piercing and penetrating type of TR that you feel within your body that makes you tense up your core area and squirm within your seat. It hurts in a way but feels so good too ...ya know ...that "GOOD HURT" thing some of us were talking about a while back LOL I was getting a whole lot of that before with just the 3 BK LFE's on the MLP (plus all the other gear), but more than doubling the number of BK's (even though they are on the other seats) just makes the TR feel quite a bit more lethal!!! It's because they are basically all working as one now with all 3 seats fastened together really well. 

I demo'd *Alita* and *Avatar* today with BEQ and HOLY OMG TERRORIZING TR!!!!  Insane Transients that were just piercing and penetrating to the core!!!!! I almost can't even believe what I felt today LOL Talk about make your heart race and spike your adrenaline ....YIKES!!!!!!

Another awesome thing to that I'm super thrilled about as well is how the 2 outside seats feel now. WOWZERS!!!!!!! Maybe not quite as good as the MLP, but damn near with the MLP seat maybe feeling just a touch more complete and totally enveloping, as it's completely balanced with all the other gear from the other two outer seats surrounding and bringing it. The MLP is always best for everything, but I tell ya, I"m blown away by the way these outer seats feel now. It's very similar feeling. I played LOTS of scenes from AVATAR over an over switching seats each time. All three seats now seriously bring the TR goods, delivering that insane piercing feeling TR within that I love so much, plus the ULF wobble by the truckloads from the MHB. YES ...I'm in TR heaven!!!  

Ok ...for the not so good. Noise from the BK's on certain scenes just like always is amplified and no surprise here. BUT, my next project will probably be operation Hush Box I think to help get rid of most or all of it. Sometimes it's not bad at all, but other times, it can get a little annoying. This is most definitely a drawback to BK LFE's, but is a well know issue on certain material, but is very worth it to me for the AMAZING that they deliver in spades, even if I never get the problem totally solved. I think I'll be able to come close though. I got some of that sound foam in that m0j0 is using, but I could still hear them a little bit when I tested it on just two of them before I added the big BK pack. If I enclose at least the CLBK's in some sort of hush box as well as the foam, I think it'll pretty much take care of all the noises. I have high hopes, especially since m0j0 had such great results with it. 

Also, my right outer seat seems to have something loose and making a lot of noise up under the leg rest area. I tracked the general area down and hopefully can be tightened up or whatever is loose under there. It's not liking the BK right now. This will be a must and is way worse than the noises that the BK's make sometimes. 

BUT, speaking of noise, I TOTALLY got rid of one of the noises that use to drives me NUTS!!!!! The squeak of leather when the TR really get going. Or hell, even just reclining in the seat, or me getting into it since I just always leave them reclined. Or even just shifting my weight in it. After seeing a video from HTmarket on how to get rid of it, it is now totally gone, YAY!!!!!!!!!!! Paraffin wax works like magic!!!!










Just rub it in between where the leather touches and rubs together. If any of you guys have this problem, I highly recommend it!!!!!!!

Also, I did the ground wire thing on the amps that Magly posted pics of the other day in the TR thread on how to get rid of that nasty hum from the drivers with the inuke gain maxed. Worked VERY well. I still get a tiny bit from the HB and CLHB drivers if I put my ear really close, but nothing like it was and can't be heard at all from the seats. It also REALLY worked wonder on the drivers in the cabinets!!!! YAY!!!!

Anyways, there it is guys ...a little more TR gear, as I don't think I had quite enough!!!!! Hahaha Nah, mainly I wanted to try to finish out the TR in my rig for all seating so everyone can get a real similar experience. But to my surprise, it even helped the MLP seat way more than I was expecting. Win Win I think!!!!!


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## Nalleh

HAHAHA, just pure insanity, man !!!!

I am thinking all this gear would be enough for 15 normal setups ! And they would all rock , LOL!!

Is that some carpet you have under the wires? To prevent noise? If so, that was actually a great idea, as i have some noise from wires slapping on the plattform.

And i think you went a little overboard in your sig: i read 10 BK’s, LOL


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## SBuger

^^^ Thanks, bro!! And yeah LOL, it’s probably enough gear to power quite a few normal setups huh hahahaha

Yep, it’s some left over carpet, or rug I should say that I use to help blackout thee room from the floor. I had to cut a bunch of it out when I out when I put the riser in a while back. And yes, you are exactly right, I just put some strips of it down under the wires to prevent them from making slapping noises against the platform when the TR really gets to going. Pretty crazy that we have enough TR power to make the wires start slapping the platform and making too much noise huh!!! Was starting to drive me nuts actually. The strips worked great!! Go for it, I highly recommend it to help solve that problem. I’m in noise fixing mode now, so trying to find all noise problems from everywhere they occur. I won’t get them all, but hopefully come very close when I’m done!! 

LOL, and yeah I guess your right huh on my sig. Looks like I have 10 BK LFE’s hahahaha. I wish!!!! Guess 7 will have to do though LOL. Will have to fix that so it reads right here in a bit.

Man, I am just so darn thrilled with the TR in the system right now, but I do want to try your Maxxis fat tubes at some point because I’m sure they are even better than the fats ones I’m using now with more air. Feels killer though and can’t imagine it feeling much better, but the diff going from the previuos smaller tubes to the ones I’m running now made a huge diff, so …..

When I do try them, I’ll need a bunch though. 8 to 9 of them and will cost me about $180 just for the tubes, plus the double sided tape to get them all sealed. Then the whole changing them out thing like you were saying.

But, I need to hold off for a for a bit, as I just spent ~750m on all the new BK’s. Glad I did though, as I just got through running through some scenes and the diff from before is pretty staggering actually. So that’s super cool, plus there outside seats feel night and day better now too.

EDIT: Sig fixed   ...I no longer have 10x BK LFE's ...darn it!! LOL. Plus using a few of them fancy TR acronyms in there hahahaha


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## citsur86

That’s awesome! I’m going to be setting up my dedicated theater in the September / October time frame when my home is finished being built and 6 seating TTs is in the playbook. I was planning to use Clarks TTs and I’m wondering what amp or amps you’re using time lower the 7 BKs?


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## SBuger

citsur86 said:


> That’s awesome! I’m going to be setting up my dedicated theater in the September / October time frame when my home is finished being built and 6 seating TTs is in the playbook. I was planning to use Clarks TTs and I’m wondering what amp or amps you’re using time lower the 7 BKs?


Thanks, man!!

Awesome on your new home being built and the new dedicated theater coming soon, that is super exciting!!! Congrats!!!

Also, cool on the Clarks!! I've heard great things about them but have have yet to experince any of them. I haven't looked at the ohm rating and all that on the Clarks or even know which ones you're looking to get, but the BK LFE's are 4 ohm.

So for powering the 7 BK LFE's, the 4 spanning the back mounted as Canti-Levered behind the armrests, I've got them split between 2 BK amps. So, 2 on each amp wired in parallel at 2 ohm, giving them about 950 watts a piece (well, according to amp specs, but probably way lower in actual use just like the Inukes specs and real world actual watts). Then the 3 BK LFE's on the 3 seat backs are powered by one Inuke6000DSP. 1 BK on one channel (MLP seat) and the other 2 on the outer seats on the another channel, wired in series, since I guess the Inukes aren't 2 ohm stable like the BK amps are. 

So, for 7 4ohm BK LFE's, I'm powering them with 2 BKN-1000N amps and 1 Inuke6000DSP amp. Seems to work well and gets them all running great with quite a bit of power to each.


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## SBuger

*** Update:*

Changed to different tubes on my HoverBOSS's this last week with a bunch of pics and stuff. I posted it all over in the TR thread and will just link to it this time HERE if interested . LOTS of TR updates lately!! LOL


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## fatallerror

How come that your head is not blocking the projection? Your screen seems to be low and PJ also not that high, even with your recliner chair the projection must be like few inches from your head


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## SBuger

^^^ LOL …yeah it’s probably pretty close. Will check if I remember next time I fire up the system


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## fatallerror

SBuger said:


> ^^^ LOL …yeah it’s probably pretty close. Will check if I remember next time I fire up the system


Weird that not many people have setups like yours, most people sit too far from the screen even with 4K projectors. Maybe your viewing distance a bit close but I wouldn't sit farther than 9 ft from a 16:9 120" screen. But seems that you are thinking like me meaning that you want to watch the movie not the room, if you sit too far then you watch the side walls too


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## SBuger

fatallerror said:


> Weird that not many people have setups like yours, most people sit too far from the screen even with 4K projectors. Maybe your viewing distance a bit close but I wouldn't sit farther than 9 ft from a 16:9 120" screen. But seems that you are thinking like me meaning that you want to watch the movie not the room, if you sit too far then you watch the side walls too


Yeah it all just comes down to personal preference and what you have to work with. For me, I want the most immersion possible without it feeling too close and overwhelming. The small room forces me to sit close, but I could still move back if I wanted to do so. I’ve messed with it a lot and at ~ 6.5’ eyes to screen when reclined is the golden ticket for the immersion I’m wanting with a 120” 16:9. Heck, on some scope content I could even stand more, but am super happy with it for 99% of content. I would prefer a bigger screen and move back some, but is what it is in the room and gear I have to work with ATM.

As far as not seeing the room and just the movie, that’s what blacking out with Black Velvet is for so you can get that floating screen and totally immersive video going on with no other visual distractions . Makes the picture better too


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## fatallerror

SBuger said:


> Yeah it all just comes down to personal preference and what you have to work with. For me, I want the most immersion possible without it feeling too close and overwhelming. The small room forces me to sit close, but I could still move back if I wanted to do so. I’ve messed with it a lot and at ~ 6.5’ eyes to screen when reclined is the golden ticket for the immersion I’m wanting with a 120” 16:9. Heck, on some scope content I could even stand more, but am super happy with it for 99% of content. I would prefer a bigger screen and move back some, but is what it is in the room and gear I have to work with ATM.
> 
> As far as not seeing the room and just the movie, that’s what blacking out with Black Velvet is for so you can get that floating screen and totally immersive video going on with no other visual distractions . Makes the picture better too


By the way, Epson is e-shifter but if you can still sit this close means that screen door effect is not a problem right?


By side walls I meant the left and right hand side walls not the front, sure that's still dark but it's in the field of view if some sit too far 


Big screen is indeed tempting but it has its own downsides like finding a really bright PJ, more room treatment etc. While a small room is cozy  I would take your room any day, except for those buttkicker things


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## SBuger

fatallerror said:


> By the way, Epson is e-shifter but if you can still sit this close means that screen door effect is not a problem right?
> 
> 
> By side walls I meant the left and right hand side walls not the front, sure that's still dark but it's in the field of view if some sit too far
> 
> 
> Big screen is indeed tempting but it has its own downsides like finding a really bright PJ, more room treatment etc. While a small room is cozy  I would take your room any day, except for those buttkicker things


Yeah it’s E-Shift but haven’t really noticed the screen door effect (maybe I’m not looking for it hard enough IDK). BUT, I do notice the weave in the Seymour Screen material from the acoustic weave on some scenes, but I’m used to it so not that huge of a deal ATM. That’s one of a few reasons I’d like to set farther back with a bigger screen to get a similar immersive feel and avoid that though. I think the screen I have recommends not settings any closer than 8-9’ minimum IIRC for this to not be seen. Definitely not 6’. I’ve thought about building a spandex screen to eliminate this (a little bigger for scope too), but I’m sure I’d loose some brightness (and maybe sharpness) with that material and has made me question whether or not I want to mess with it so far.

Yeah that’s what I was talking about the side walls (works just as good for floor and ceiling too though). If your velvet is good, you shouldn’t be able to see it at all in your field of view. But then, you’ve also got a black bat cave for a room as well LOL. But I’m totally cool with that, as mine is basically for performance anyway for the best experience possible when the lights are off 

Mainly no matter how far you set back, as long as you cover the side walls with velvet up to your sides to about 90 degrees, you shouldn’t really see the side walls at all (at least everything that has velvet on it).

So, once you start blacking things out, be prepared to black it all out though because things not blacked out start standing out more LOL. You gotta go all in once you start hahahaha 

Yeah brightness can be an issue in a bigger room and bigger screen I would think if you got too carried away with size. BUT, the 5040 is a light cannon with certain settings and can get super bright in this little room, and probably decent in bigger rooms and screens as well. 

LOL on taking my small room but not the Buttkickers. Dude, you’d be missing out, as they are just all kinds of fun and the system is just not the same without them for movie bass and TR!!!  Seriously, even with everything else I run!!!


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## fatallerror

SBuger said:


> Yeah it’s E-Shift but haven’t really noticed the screen door effect (maybe I’m not looking for it hard enough IDK). BUT, I do notice the weave in the Seymour Screen material from the acoustic weave on some scenes, but I’m used to it so not that huge of a deal ATM. That’s one of a few reasons I’d like to set farther back with a bigger screen to get a similar immersive feel and avoid that though. I think the screen I have recommends not settings any closer than 8-9’ minimum IIRC for this to not be seen. Definitely not 6’. I’ve thought about building a spandex screen to eliminate this (a little bigger for scope too), but I’m sure I’d loose some brightness (and maybe sharpness) with that material and has made me question whether or not I want to mess with it so far.
> 
> Yeah that’s what I was talking about the side walls (works just as good for floor and ceiling too though). If your velvet is good, you shouldn’t be able to see it at all in your field of view. But then, you’ve also got a black bat cave for a room as well LOL. But I’m totally cool with that, as mine is basically for performance anyway for the best experience possible when the lights are off
> 
> Mainly no matter how far you set back, as long as you cover the side walls with velvet up to your sides to about 90 degrees, you shouldn’t really see the side walls at all (at least everything that has velvet on it).
> 
> So, once you start blacking things out, be prepared to black it all out though because things not blacked out start standing out more LOL. You gotta go all in once you start hahahaha
> 
> Yeah brightness can be an issue in a bigger room and bigger screen I would think if you got too carried away with size. BUT, the 5040 is a light cannon with certain settings and can get super bright in this little room, and probably decent in bigger rooms and screens as well.
> 
> LOL on taking my small room but not the Buttkickers. Dude, you’d be missing out, as they are just all kinds of fun and the system is just not the same without them for movie bass and TR!!!  Seriously, even with everything else I run!!!


 Interesting info that the weave is more visible than the pixel structure. Epson is really good but with games the native 4k sharpness might be beneficial, their next will be 4k for sure. They just can't release another e-shift model 
I'm reading a lot about spandex screens since I just can't justify those 2000+ euro/usd screen prices and basically everybody love them, there are even JVC N7 owners with spandex so I guess I'm not the only one who can't tolerate AT screen prices  They specially love the acoustics and fine weave so it might be an option for you too.


Oh I see, since I've never seen velvet room I don't know but I'm sure it's the way to do it if your projector have the contrast for it. haha you are not the only one who says this, it always starts with the front wall with every "patient" 


Well, I'm the guy who always turn off vibrations on everything except on phone, when my controller first vibrated I almost jumped up and that has lame vibration motor so with buttkicker I would be on the ceiling


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## SBuger

*UPDATE:* The Hover TR Rig is a whole lotta fun!!!! It brings in pretty hardcore in the single digits and just eats it up on stuff like Lone Survivor chopper scene (or anything with a little or a lot of ULF). I posted some vids and VibSensor measurements over in the TR thread HERE , but will go ahead and make a cross post and post it here as well since this is the first time I’ve done any videos of TR.

------------

Had to check out *Lone Survivor* again tonight because it's just so freaking AWESOME!!!! 

The chopper scene is just loads of fun!!!!!! Watched at a little higher level tonight at -15mv instead of my normal -20mv night volume and just felt down right spectacular. Had some fun with it as well with VibSensor and even some videos, since I've never done any of those before LOL

For the VibSensor TR measurements I took them setting on the phone reclined in full like I always watch movies for our new way of taking the measurements. I wanted to show just the HB+CLHB+BB (BB probably didn't do much though on this scene for low TR), as well as all TR gear except no MBKs (BK LFEs mounted on seatback), and then ALL TR gear including the MBKs to show the differences of what they add. They add noting under 10hz to the 6hz spike, as to be expected, but add significantly to the above frequencies. I think this is one of the main reasons that Venom and MIB: International feel so darn lethal that I just posted about today. The CLBK+MBK+BB Barrage behind the seating makes one hell of a difference in feel (big diff on the readings too) in addition to the MHB. Oh yeah, I forgot that I didn't have the outer seat CLBKs or MBKs going on the VS readings or the Videos. I forgot to turn them on, as I've been leaving them turned off lately when watching by myself (and the ones on my seat turned up a bit more to make up for it) and is less noise from the outer seating with no one in them.










Now for the videos. All lights turned on but still pretty dark, but will give an idea of the wobble from the chopper scene. I think I took them all at about 21:15 to 21:45 or something like that. Same with the VS measurements.

These first 2 are with the phone where my head is usually at, at the MLP:










This one is with me in the seat and laptop setting on my lap to try to show the movement while seated:





Quite a bit of movement and feels pretty darn insane at -15mv. Feels pretty killer at -20mv as well. Wobble like Mad from the 6hz and extra sharpness that can really be felt within my body from the up above frequency spikes (6hz too, but the above really adds as well to that super sharp transient feel). In fact it feels so violent and with the sharpness that it makes me do that involuntary contract thing of the core area (stomach workout LOL).

EDIT: got them to upload in HD instead of SD, so not as blurry now.


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## SBuger

More vids: Might as well post them here as well I guess, so crosspost HERE with the TR thread again).

Been having a ton of fun with the system and shooting some more TR videos as well :grin:

I don’t know that these videos do the TR justice for how it feels (I think Lone Survivor Chopper Scene may have come the closest), but is still fun to try to capture some of it on video for a visual. I was going to snag a couple VS measurements too, but ran out of time. the family is home and they needed me to come out of my room for a while (how dare them!!! LOL). This *Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle* Barn and Rhino Stampede scene at -15mv seriously brings it …it feels pretty gosh darn hardcore and is quite the ride in the MLP seat!!!!!  It wobbles, shakes and pounds the hell out of me with that awesome sharp transient attack that I love so much all the way through!!!!

Jumanji Rhino Stampede …Round 1 @ -15mv





Jumanji Rhino Stampede …Round 2 @ -15mv





*Bass I Love You * looks less intense in the above 6hz frequencies, but feels like it’s shaking the crap out of me in the 17hz areas as well, while pounding the heck out of me too when the beat hits …fun stuff!!! 

Bass Mekanik - Bass I love You …Round 1 @ -15mv





Bass Mekanik - Bass I love You …Round 2 @ -15mv





LOL you can hear the apple remote take a tumble towards the beginning on the last video.


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## unretarded

So now that it been over a year, how are you liking that small dedicated room.......


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## SBuger

^^^ Hey man, nice to see you around again. Hope all is well!!

Oh yeah, absolutely love having the little dedicated room!!  There have been times I wish it was a little bigger, but for the most part I am just thrilled with it. Being in a small room does have its perks though, so I’m not complaining at all . I should have turned this little room into HT a long time ago instead of spending all those years in the living room fighting WAF and the things that couldn't be changed.


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## Scott Simonian

A sick, small-room theater after my very heart. Well done! Looks great and I bet uber tac-tile!


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## SBuger

Scott Simonian said:


> A sick, small-room theater after my very heart. Well done! Looks great and I bet uber tac-tile!


Thanks, Scott!! Means a lot coming from one of my biggest TR and Basshead heros!! Looks like you're back at it from your thread, awesome!! 

Yeah the tactile can get pretty crazy with everything running. I gotta say, I do love it, as I'm a sucker for TR, LOL. A small room definitely has its benefits too and has been great for HT. I've had a ton of fun with it so far and has exceeded expectations for sure from when I decided to move all my gear up into it and try it out a while back!! 

I finally got to experience something maybe somewhat similar to your awesome subwoofer riser with the 18's. Before I converted my riser to a HoverBOSS and added the 18's to it not too long ago, I ran the 6x 12's as a subwoofer riser (mostly sealed). Not as killer as your 18's I'm sure, but I still loved the feel of it.


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## unretarded

Nice !


I have been super happy with my spandex screen............

Spandex screen review.......


I also plan on going scope, the same 59 inches tall as my 120 16:9 screen so that stays the same, but goes wider for scope CIH I guess is the proper term I think.


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## SBuger

^^^ Cool!! I've almost done the same thing with a spandex screen replacement in scope for my 120 16:9 to get it a little bigger for the scope movies. ...just haven't been able to make myself do it yet. Let me know how it goes and what you think when you get it done


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## Scott Simonian

SBuger said:


> Thanks, Scott!! Means a lot coming from one of my biggest TR and Basshead heros!! Looks like you're back at it from your thread, awesome!!


Awww, you're so sweet! 



SBuger said:


> Yeah the tactile can get pretty crazy with everything running. I gotta say, I do love it, as I'm a sucker for TR, LOL. A small room definitely has its benefits too and has been great for HT. I've had a ton of fun with it so far and has exceeded expectations for sure from when I decided to move all my gear up into it and try it out a while back!!


That's awesome. I love what you've done with the smaller space. It's tough to get things done in small rooms.



SBuger said:


> I finally got to experience something maybe somewhat similar to your awesome subwoofer riser with the 18's. Before I converted my riser to a HoverBOSS and added the 18's to it not too long ago, I ran the 6x 12's as a subwoofer riser (mostly sealed). Not as killer as your 18's I'm sure, but I still loved the feel of it.


Oh, you're too kind. Honestly, I think most of you guys have far surpassed the amount of TR I'm doing. I'm pretty impressed with the level of craziness some of you have pushed. I have poked around your threads and seen what you have tried and I'm sure my lil' twin 18's would have a tough time keeping up.


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## SBuger

Scott Simonian said:


> Awww, you're so sweet!


LOL …Nah, it just a facade ..I’m about as sweet as one of those lemon sour patch gummies that my 8 year loves to eat!! 



> That's awesome. I love what you've done with the smaller space. It's tough to get things done in small rooms.


Thanks man!! Yes, that’s been one of the toughest things I think, is working with the big risers for example with the seating and everything else in there …cuz ya know, I’ve had to try it a hundred different ways to make sure I’m not missing out on anything LMAO



> Oh, you're too kind. Honestly, I think most of you guys have far surpassed the amount of TR I'm doing. I'm pretty impressed with the level of craziness some of you have pushed. I have poked around your threads and seen what you have tried and I'm sure my lil' twin 18's would have a tough time keeping up.


A handful of us around here (most of us are in the TR thread) have pretty much gone completely nuts with the TR stuff ..ya know, true to AVSforum fashion I guess once you get a taste and then start down that road chasing more of it LOL.

To be honest, the TR can get pretty darn absurd (and I love it!! ) if really pushed. Hell, even just coasting can be nuts with everything firing on all cylinders and in time with all the combined synergy of what all the different gear has to offer. Ridiculous in a good way I guess you could say LOL 

And now these days, the Hover with the tubes around the drivers, takes single digit TR to levels that’s hard to believe actually, at least IMO. A couple years ago if someone would have told me (like Nalleh said as well) of what was possible in the singles for TR wobble today, I don’t know that I would have believed it. I thought Crowson MA’s were the shiz for single digit TR back then.

What’s really cool though, is the BEQ that is available these days that you can load in no time, once you’re setup with a mini, making pretty much all movies that have decent bass feel like TIH a lot of times. IMO, that’s one of the things that’s so sweet about running a rig that is super capable and can dish it down into the low singles. It makes it all worth it if one is into this kind of stuff for movie bass!!!


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## SBuger

*Update: * _It's been a while since I've updated this room thread. Last update was mainly about the HoverBOSS and how much I loved it implemented in into the System. Well, I still have HoverBOSS in the TR rig, but have made a few changes to it. Mainly by making it lighter ,and as a result, get way better performance from it, even without the 18 Canti-Levered drivers as Hover behind in the seating. First, I ditched the Mega sized HoverBOSS platform loaded with multiple drivers (12's & 18's) that all three seats could sit on, to single seat platforms per seat that are much lighter with less drivers. Plus, which is just recently being done over in the TR thread by a few of us, mounted drivers cone up (instead of cone down), with tubes then over the top of those drivers enclosing them and finally a lightweight piece of plywood to sit on top of those tubes to create the Tubes of Hover that creates the HoverBoss. But now ....WAY lighter than before, and therefore, way more TR efficient. Plus with separate platforms, it's nice to be able to control each platform (or even turn them off if I want or need to do so). Plus there are multiple other advantages with this approach as well. So, since I've already posted about all this stuff regarding the new StackedTubeConeUpHoverBoss (STCUHB) with photos and all over in the TR thread, I'll just go ahead and make a cross post that can be found HERE _

--------------

I finally got the two outer seats put back in the little HT room with their own ConeUpHoverBoss's. I didn’t do stacked BELL like the MLP seat, but instead just went with single layer Maxxis tubes front and back of the little narrow platform and fit perfectly. ATM, I just have one JBL 12" towards the rear of the platform, but have a hole cut towards the front to put a second one in each outer seat as well when I get them. For now though, I just went ahead a put a tube around it with no driver in for support as a tube iso. Works fantastic so far and is amazing what just one JBL 12” in a Cone Up HB config can do. One thing though, I ended up needing a little extra support on the side that there is no armrest on these one arm HT seats that butt up to the MLP 2 arm seat in the middle. Unseated, it’s fine and is pretty balanced side to side, but when seated, it tilts in on one side (plus I dont have the seat actually touching the MLP seat and don't want it to do so, leaving all seats to move as freely as possible). The platform is only 29” wide x 35” long, so it has to be this way to have enough room to walk by the seating to get to the back of the room and also to sit close enough to the MLP seat. I ended up using the springs I had bought and tried for experimental purposes a while back (thanks m0j0 and Aaron for these). They work perfect to keep the seating pretty much perfectly level when seated, plus the TR feels fantastic as well on these outer seats, especially for only having 1 JBL ATM. Also, I got the MegaBossBack’s put on them as well with a JBL 12” and BK LFE as MBK, and MA's.

It’s so nice to have the room put back in order with all seats and the massive wire mess, etc all tidied back up, including the little equipment and PJ room. That alone is like a breath of fresh air, as the room was starting to turn into total chaos with all the experimenting recently with TR gear, wires, wood, etc everywhere.

So anyway, I’ll talk a bit more about TR performance and all that, but first, here are a few pics of it all for some visuals …

Right outside seat single layer Maxxis Tube Cone Up (with 1 JBL ATM):









MLP stacked BELL tube 4 JBL Cone Up:









Right outside 1 arm seat single layer Maxxis Tube with springs on the inside to help stabilize when seated:









Then all seats lined up with CUHB, BK LFE’s and MBB’s (they all need some black paint I think LOL):









And a shot from the little equipment and PC room:









One from the front side showing the Hover platforms and seats, along with the screen and 3 of the 5 subs (two on side walls as well) put back up front (even though I don’t seem to need anymore SPL than what I have from the Hovers in this tiny little sealed room.









Then a shot trying to capture the feel of the room and positioning of everything the best I could from the back corner where one of the Bass traps is at. Surround sound, Atmos and screen visuals are just engulfing as all heck on these movies, which was my ultimate goal in this little bat cave of a small HT room 









I probably need to paint the BB’s and platforms black so that they blend better, but mainly only being able to be seen at the back of the room, hasn’t been a priority to get done yet. Still, it would look nicer. Also, I need to make a step up in front to get up into all the seats, replacing the one little one I have for the MLP seat ATM. There are a few other little things I need to do as well, but for the most part, it’s ready to go for tons of content enjoyment. And speaking of, watched Rise of the Guardians (probably my favorite 3D movie to date, right there with Avatar and Polar Express) and started Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring UHD last night.

A few pics of them as well with all lights off (still have my stupid Yellow vertical band that I haven't tried to fix yet though) …

A pic from Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of The Ring …









A pic from Rise of the Guardians (Full Screen 16:9) in 3D, which doesn’t seem to do it justice at all compared to actually being in the seating setting so close and is just CRAZY IMMERSIVE!!!!!









Both ….JUST A TOTALLY WOW EXPERIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Rise of the Guardians is just INSANE with the new StackedTubeConeUpHover!!!!!!!!! Talk about a ULF ultra cool wobble fest way into the lower singles under 5hz with the new tweaked LPF 10hz 6db/oct teal curve of Aaron’s, plus I leave out the 10hz cut that the BEQ calls for as well for even more lower singles. I don’t know that I have experienced better and such HUGE feeling ULF TR ever, that just feels sooooooooooo right  As usual, I had to play that intro up to about the 4 minute mark up to where they arrive at the North Pole about 5 times LOL. Pure Ultra Realistic Insanity and Euphoria in 3D full screen (16:9), DTS 7.1 unmixed with Neural:X, and of course the Hover!!!!!!!!!!

Then the Lord of The Rings ….INSANE as well!!!!!!!!! After Rise of the Guardians, I only made it up to where they set off the Fireworks, so just barely getting started. But, OOOOOMMMMMGGGGG ….LOTR UHD is just absolutely incredible from what I’ve experienced so far …. Visual, Atmos and Bass With BEQ!!!!!!! Words can’t even describe, as this is one of my all-time favorites movies. I’m gonna thoroughly enjoy every second of the 12 hours of it yet to come 

Ok with all that, a bit more about the TR with the latest. The outside seats are pretty awesome, considering they only have 1 JBL as CUHB each at the moment. Cone Up Hover is pretty insane with what it can do, even with just 1 JBL. Plus the other TR gear on these outer seats really helps as well with MA’s, BK LFE’s and BB. That said, the MLP stacked tube 4 JBL (plus 2 extra BK LFE’s compared to the outer seats, so 3 total ATM)) just owns them, as it should. That works, because my wife doesn’t want the craziness that my seat will dish anyway, although those two outer seats will still dish out some crazy TR!!!!

Something that I found pretty crazy last night though, and brings me to this next thing. I think I really underestimated what a suspended floor, even with what Cone Up HoverBOSS, can do (which I wouldn't think would engage it THAT much, but does). Without the two outer seats turned on (which is cool that I have separate controls for them all now), TR from the MLP seat is freaking INSANE. BUT …with the other two turned on (which are not attached in any way to the MLP seat, as all 3 seats have their own separate platforms now), TR becomes absolutely mind blowingly RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!  WHAT!!!???? I’m totally cool with that, but wow and was unexpected. Yes, there is more SPL form the two extra JBL’s (that I can only turn up so much, or becomes too much SPL for my ears to handle comfortably). So there is that, and probably helps some, BUT, I think it’s mainly the suspended floor contributing to more TR from the extra two Hovers, as it just moves the floor more. What it mainly feels like with the diff, is that it brings more of that INSANE PIERCING TR feel within my body. I’ve talked about this before (and is one of my favorite feelings ever from TR), is that it’s back to being so freaking intense and then some with this feel with the two outer seats turned on, that it has my breathing all funky again on a lot of scenes (almost like a super cold shower taking my breath away), plus has me squirming in my seat almost like I’m trying to get away from it or something. Like I’ve said before, this might not sound desirable, but I ABSOLUTELY LOVE LOVE LOVE this type of TR feel, and is just so very exhilarating, even on a lot of the lower level TR scenes. I don’t understand how this is actually happening to cause more of this feel, but I really do think it somehow has something to do with the suspended floor helping to create this CRAZY COOL TR EFFECT within my body, as engaging the other 2 seats (which them and their platforms are not even touching my main MLP seat) really brings on more of this feel. The only connection of them being tied together is the suspended floor that the separate hover platforms sit on. If we ever move, I may really miss this if I can’t get to this level of feel on a non suspended floor with the HoverBOSS.

Anyway, just thought I’d share the latest with the Hover TR rig with pics of it and a few of the room as well.

*Happy Holidays, Everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## SBuger

As not to neglect this thread too much, I figured I’d post some of the recent still shots I took along the way from the latest 4K release of The Hobbit Trilogy. These films are pure Audio and Video bliss!!!! Between the new LOTR and Hobbit trilogies, I’ve been spending a LOT of time in the Home Theater lately and enjoying the heck out of it. YAY!!!   I still have The Battle of The Five Armies yet, and very much looking forward to it.

This is one of my favorite scenes when Bilbo peeks out at the tops of the tree line in the forest to try to see where they are. Such an amazing warmth and glow of the sun. Plus all the blue butterflies that take off shortly after this pic was taken are just so cool!!! The pics doesn't do it justice compared to setting close to the big screen that takes up a huge part of my FOV, but still fun to snap few shots here and there of some of the scenes.









I absolutely LOVE the dragon in the Desolation of Smaug. With BEQ to bring back the filtered low end and the latest implementation of the HoverBoss, the bass and TR from this guy is just INSANE!!! Add in the visuals and killer Atmos track from it, and is one of the best HT experiences I've had yet !!!! 

Smaug is just crazy insane when he is this close!!!!









And one of the extreme closeups of that Dragon’s eye


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## SBuger

*Updated **Frequency Response from the Cone Up HoverBoss's + BossBack's*

Since flipping my ConeDownHoverBoss over to StackedTubeConeUpHoverBoss, my FR suffered a bit in the 25-50hz area since room modes seem to hit the response a bit differently between the two orientations. Luckily I have lots of sealed subs in the room (that I wasn’t using there for a while when I was Cone Down Hover because of not really much need at all, as the FR was better in this area from Cone Down and gave a pretty good FR across the board, even though the TR is better with Cone Up with it being lighter). I got the front FairField subs going in the mix now in combo with all the ConeUpHoverBoss’s + the 3 BossBacks, and I’ve gotta say, my FR has never looked better with a slightly rising House Curve all the way down from crossover at 90hz and into the single digits …YEEHAW!!!!!  Also, I think it sounds fantastic and best it ever has with BEQ on these movies. Bass is so detailed across the range, plus has that awesome fullness, weight and pressure to it, to go with all the TR from the Hovers. I don't know that I've ever been happier with the overall sound and feel of the TR. And now, my 18” subs aren’t just collecting dust anymore (well some of them still are) and makes me feel better about that LOL. COOL!!! 

Here’s the FR (FF+CUHB+BB+CenterChannelSpeaker):









And here’s a few pics of those FF subs that go behind the AT drop screen:


















I have subs on the sides too, but am out of amps to power them. I don’t really need them anyway, except to help boost between 50-63ish hz or so, as I’ have about a 7-8 db dip there from a room mode that needs filled in and the FF have big dips here too. BUT, instead, especially since I’m out of amps for the side subs, and didn’t want to juggle anything to get one free’d up, I just boosted the heck out of my BossBacks to fill it in and worked like a charm …..PLUS, wow does it ever hit WAY harder now in that chest punch area. It seems to handle it just fine too, which is way cool. So, win-win I think ….hits the chest cavity quite a bit harder and also filled in my FR in that area!!! Yeah Buddy 

The FF subs were super easy to integrate and didn’t take much work at all. Only thing I had to do was put a pretty steep High Shelf drop-off over 60hz, or it just starts sounding and feeling to bloated/boomy on my ears in combo with what the HB's and BB's give here (even though it doesn’t really look that very much different on the overall FR graph). So, I just arrived at the tweak by subjective impression on a lot of my favorite demos until it sounded and felt right to me (luckily the FR still looked good). Oh yeah, I also use a negative Low Shelf as well to roll it off pretty hard under 20hz or so as well, as it’s just way to much bass and pressure if I don’t do this when combined with the HB’s, as I have them boosted quite a bit and gives me all I need for ULF SPL, to go along with the ULF TR.


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## Musty Hustla

@SBuger how do you snack while watching movies?


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## SBuger

Musty Hustla said:


> @SBuger how do you snack while watching movies?


LOL ...it's a snack at your own risk kind of thing Hahahaha


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## Nalleh

^^^^ LOL, not to mention trying to drink a beverage while watching Jumanji WTTJ helicopter/ rhino stampede scene 😂😂😂😂😂

Impossible!!!


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## SBuger

^^^ for sure!!! On both of our TR systems, it would be hilarious to watch somebody try to take a drink during that scene. That and their popcorn would probably be all over them LOL


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## SBuger

_*UPDATE:*__ added my VNF subs back into the mix behind my MLP seat. I posted it over in the TR thread since that seems to be where I spend most of my furum time these days (I Love that BEQ thread too!!! . But thought I might as well lpost it over hear as well since it includes some room pics as well. I'll just post it as a cross post from this post __HERE_

--------

Ok here we go again with the latest VNF update. I posted HERE a few days ago when I was trying out the VNF MBM to help fill in the 45-60hz area that I struggle a bit with from the HoverEZe's in my room from room modes without the Canti-Levered HoverEZe not in the system anymore. So …I replaced the TV tray that I was using as a temp stand for the MBM to sit on with one of my sealed 18’s. So, now I can use it as VNF as well 

A few pics …

Side View Close up the VNF's to add to the other arsenal of TR gear LOL. The top MBM looks closer than it is to the edge of the BB platform. It's about 1/2" or so away to give the seat room to move freely) ...









Shot from the back:









Back side corner view:









And one from the front (the top of the MBM turned on its side is about 4" lower than the top of seatback, which is cool):










And of course the FR with it all integrated. Ya can’t integrate subs and HB’s without some good ole REW sweeps . As usual, everything combined (all SPL producing gear) + Center Channel Speaker









So, how does it sound and feel? Well, in a word, as “The BFG” might say ….Scrum-diddley-umpious !!!    Speaking of, I need to watch that movie again (it used to be one of my favorites!!)

These VNF’s were fun to integrate with the HeZe's. Partially because it’s probably one of my better looking FR’s I've had (with a gradual slope up from 90hz crossover to way into the singles digits) since ditching the giant sized multi-seat MegaHoverBoss with all the 12’s and 18’s all in one (that covered the whole SPL bass frequency band pretty darn well with no subs). Since going with all JBL 12’s underneath me as CUHeZe, I've had some holes to deal with in the 25-60hz range. The other reason it was fun this time around is because I got to mess with a little VNF "phase trickery" between the 18” and ported MBM. If I run them both in-phase with each other, I get a huge peak at around 45hz with them combined from a room mode. I normally have to cut at least 7db in that area from may VNF sealed 18's and some on the VNF MBM as well in that area. They sum to quite a bit. BUT, with the MBM out of phase with the 18, it perfectly kills that huge peak and brings it perfectly in line on the FR. So …I had to try it and see how it sounds and feels. I A/B’d several scenes back to back with with either ran by themselves (the two VNFs not combined) in the mix with the needed cuts to bring that area in line and then with them both ran together with that phase trick with no cuts at 45hz. Every time, the the latter brings more impact, and most importantly, sounds great too and not all boomy and bloated. To my ears it sounds super clean and punchy.

SO, that was super fun. I love messing with that kind of stuff and used to do it some in the past. Sometimes with good success and sometimes not LOL It can look good on an FR, but listening to it to make sure it sounds good and "right" is sometimes another thing. This time around it seemed to work like a charm. And also, it's really cool that NO PEQ at all was needed on either the VNF 18 or the VNF MBM when doing this and they fill in perfectly. The 18 adds some SPL down below a bit as well, as I didn’t HPF it around 20hz like I did on the FFs since my HB’s pretty much make up everything under 25hz.

Fun stuff and I’m loving it so far. It’s cool to have the VNF 18 back in the mix, as it brings more impact for sure and a very cool presence, while not being as heavy and weighty as the FF subs. The combo of locations combined as a whole is pretty darn cool and is something I’ve always enjoyed messing with in the many different configs I’ve had along the way in my two different rooms. Subs in different locations can have quite different characteristics and is fun to draw on each of their strengths to contribute in the mix!!!


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## SBuger

A little follow up to the above post ^^^

VERY VERY VERY HAPPY with the addition of VNF back into the system now that I have a lot less drivers in my smaller and lighter single seat platforms as Cone Up HoverBoss. In fact, I’m just absolutely thrilled about it!!! It was a really good move to add them back in I think, as was FF not too long ago to help fill in some holes, which worked perfectly and gave me even more than I was hoping for.

I did a lot of demoing (BEQ'd movie scenes) today and was just blown away by how the system sounded, felt, and just overall performance of everything combined. Not just for the crazy violent feeling TR, but also the mid, lower level, and real subtle stuff too. The addition of the VNFs back into the system has truly added something magical. I’ve always loved VNF, and for good reason. Combined with the TR, the bass just seems so HUUUUUGE, yet so clean and precise. These little single platform Cone Up HB’s and BB’s combined with the recently added FF and VNF subs, seems to be checking all the boxes for me. The combo of it all as a whole is the best I’ve ever experienced in my room so far.

Finished up today’s demos with the ending battle scenes of The Hobbit: Battle of The Five Armies and man oh man ,,,just sick as hell at -20mv and even sicker at -15mv (which is about as loud as I go in my room these days). Poor little room, at -15mv the bass and TR just terrorizes the hell out of it LOL. The bell busting through the stone wall, all the giants raising hell, the arrow/spear thrower, the bear’s pouncing, the one on one battles, etc …YIKES …just savage, they all hit my body with such a crazy ferocity, that it's shocking!!! All gear seems to be doing what each does best and combine for a pretty darn scary force to be reckoned with (CUHB’s, BB’s, MBK’s (BK LFE’s mounted on the seatback), CL BK LFE’s, Crowson MA’s, FF subs, and now VNF subs). Pretty crazy to think one would need all that gear, but they all have their place to help contribute.

Anyways, just wanted to share the latest thoughts on it since I posted about the integration of the VNFs back into the rig yesterday. I hope that all didn’t sound too braggy or whatever, I didn't mean for it to, it's just that I'm so super pleased with the rig right now and wanted to share a about it a bit. It's so cool and fun that our systems really seem to progress and get better and better as we go over time


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## SBuger

Cool, I just noticed that all the links that were broken from the first post and throughout the thread after the software change happened, have all been fixed finally. I could never make myself go fix them all at the time, hoping that they would get it done. Now if I can make myself, there are a few images along the way around the time I added Atmos that need to be fixed, as I had them on a different server that went down before I moved to imgur. Always something to do it seems LOL

Anyway …the links seem to all work now …not that they ever get used much I’m sure ..but still, YAY!! . That means that links that were broke all over the forum should work now too


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## SBuger

*Update:* _ Added an HDFury Vertex2 to my setup to get Dolby Vision and Dynamic Tone Mapping on my Epson 5040 projector._

It's been a while since I've updated this thread, and especially for the video related, so here goes. I recently added a Vertex2 into my system so that I could get LLDV and DTM from all my movies on UHD (disc and streaming with ATV4K). Works fantastic with the Oppo too, as it can also force the discs with just HDR10 to LLDV, so that the LLDV trick works on them as well  So, a BIG THANKS to my good buddy Nalleh for not letting up on me to try this. He was so right, in just how AWESOME it truly is!!! Also, a BIG THANK YOU to Dave Harper for sharing it with the community!!! I'm still in shock actually, of just how great it works 

Anyway, figured I’d try to capture some of it on the iPhone with a few pics from Valerian And The City Of A Thousand Planets, to help give an idea of what it looks like, plus it’s been a while since I’ve taken any new screenshot stills. I probably got a little carried away and took too many, but will post a few of them anyway. I mostly took them kind of from a side view for something different than what I usually do to give a little different perspective and was fun. There’s a few normal style head on as well from behind my seat so I could get the whole whole width of the screen to fit. Then one from the MLP seat, even though the camera can’t capture the entire width because I sit so close. Makes for a nice detail view pic shot though LOL

This eye is just INSAAAAAANE looking in reals, as it seems like it takes up most of my FOV at about 6.5' eyes to screen. I LOOOOOVE the colors as well:









And here is what I see from my seat, minus the sides LOL. This eye truly is just sooooooooo engulfing and flat out amazing to sit so close in front of 









I LOOOOOOVE all the Aqua colored water and deep blue sky:









Another shot of it head on from behind the seating:









I love the way this one makes me feel too in real and so many others having to do with the water, as I just sit there in total amazement trying to take it all in and am totally transported to their world, like I'm really there:









I thought this scene was pretty darn cool too with the giant deep blue sky and her standing there in the middle:









Awwww ...so cute LOL









And then of course, I had to get one of the little guy by himself too 









Ok, I'll stop there so this doesn't become too much of a scroll fest of pic after pic . If you guys don't have Valerian and can do Dolby Vision with your projector, I HIGHLY recommend it, as Nalleh was spot on about just how staggeringly good it is. Pics don't even really do it justice, verses sitting there in front of it on big screen. I've only checked out a little past this section so far, but I'm sure the whole thing is insane as well. Even if it wasn't though, this chapter alone would be very well worth the purchase just for some of the best visuals ever for demo. I may have to pick this one up in 3D as well, as from the sounds of what Nalleh was saying about it after he watched the UHD version, it's even MORE engulfing, even though it's minus the LLDV.

I’m just really in shock with what this Vertex2 and LLDV hack has been able to do, even on my lower end Epson 5040. I can only imagine what it does for guys with the higher end JVC's etc. I was super happy with the image that I was getting before, with the tweaked HarperVision on UHD content that I've been running for the last couple of years, but this just takes it to a whole other level, as I feel that it’s truly staggering now and how a UHD HDR Dolby Vision image should look. WhoooooHooooooo  .....yep I'm a little bit excited about it i'd say


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## Nalleh

^^^ Again, Shelby, sooo happy to finally manage to twist your arm into getting the Vertex2 😂😂😂😂😂
And that you got a very noticable improvement in visuals, even thought you had your tweaked HarperVision settings before 😁😁😁
So yeah, ABOUT TIME !!! I only nagged about it for two years, HAHAHAHA.


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## SBuger

LOL ...yes your nagging about it definitely paid off and I'm so glad I have you around to keep me from slacking too much


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## Kevnmin

Man-o-man those pics are stunning! The clarity is amazing and brightness off the charts. Count that a win!


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## SBuger

Kevnmin said:


> Man-o-man those pics are stunning! The clarity is amazing and brightness off the charts. Count that a win!


Sorry, I missed this post of yours. Thanks so much for the good words man!! Even with a pretty decent amount of time spent with it since then, I'm still just flat out amazed with the picture from the Vertex2 and DV tone mapping approach.

It was really nice hearing from you through PM the other day, as it's been a while since I've seen you around, but I get it from what you mentioned, something has to give and AVS can take a lot of time. I hope you're loving that new PJ and screen setup you got the other day!! Happy Holidays, my friend!!


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## The_Forth_Man

Hi, 

I just went through your thread. It was quite the journey makes me wish I could close up my theater section too!! 

Very sober with a great end result ! Glad you are "almost" done. 

Your pictures look phenomenal, What are you using for your PJ settings. I used Harpervision for a while then recently switched to the one from Inspector over the 5040/6040 thread. Also did you have to change those after adding the Vertex ?

Thanks

Chris


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## SBuger

The_Forth_Man said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just went through your thread. It was quite the journey makes me wish I could close up my theater section too!!
> 
> Very sober with a great end result ! Glad you are "almost" done.
> 
> Your pictures look phenomenal, What are you using for your PJ settings. I used Harpervision for a while then recently switched to the one from Inspector over the 5040/6040 thread. Also did you have to change those after adding the Vertex ?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Chris


Hey Chris, thanks for stopping by and for the good words!!

Hahahaha …yeah just “almost’ done 

For PJ settings, before the HDFury for LLDV, the Harper Vision settings ran in the Dynamic mode were fantastic I thought. As good it was, LLDV with the vertex (still in Dynamic), but in HDR1 instead of SDR BT.2020 for HV, is better. Not a ton better, as I thought the other was freaking amazing when tweaked to look its best, but it’s still better. I can still run the HV with it set to SDR with the HDFury in the chain, but it’s a bit too dim with the settings that I use in the Vertex2 for LLDV to look just right in HDR1 mode. IF I don’t use the Vertex2, then it’s almost as good, but if I run the Vertex and I still want to use HV, then I have to run the main max nit setting in the Vertex2 way higher than 250 (where it needs to be for HDR1), if that makes sense. If you want, I can send you the settings I use in PM when you get your Vertex in and ready to go.


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## The_Forth_Man

SBuger said:


> Hey Chris, thanks for stopping by and for the good words!!
> 
> Hahahaha …yeah just “almost’ done
> 
> For PJ settings, before the HDFury for LLDV, the Harper Vision settings ran in the Dynamic mode were fantastic I thought. As good it was, LLDV with the vertex (still in Dynamic), but in HDR1 instead of SDR BT.2020 for HV, is better. Not a ton better, as I thought the other was freaking amazing when tweaked to look its best, but it’s still better. I can still run the HV with it set to SDR with the HDFury in the chain, but it’s a bit too dim with the settings that I use in the Vertex2 for LLDV to look just right in HDR1 mode. IF I don’t use the Vertex2, then it’s almost as good, but if I run the Vertex and I still want to use HV, then I have to run the main max nit setting in the Vertex2 way higher than 250 (where it needs to be for HDR1), if that makes sense. If you want, I can send you the settings I use in PM when you get your Vertex in and ready to go.


Got my Vertex yesterday just updated the firmware (it was already on the last one) Funny thing is my OLED screen on the Vertex is blue like the new VERTEX2 instead of green. 

If you don't mind sending your settings via PM I'd be glad to test them out. my room is almost pitch black when viewing PJ so it should be similar. 

This hobby is really never ending... I just ordered a Calibrite CC display pro (x-rite rebrand) .... 
This expense made more sense to my wife than my plan for subs under the couch I wonder why ?


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## SBuger

_*Update:* A few more movie pics with the HDFury Vertex2 in the chain to get Dolby Vision for Dynamic Tone Mapping on my Epson 5040 projector. Plus, added ezBEQ to my setup to make loading BEQs for movies that much easier. _

I meant to post these pics a while back, but never got it done. I did get them posted in the TR thread though, go figure  LOL. Maybe because over there is where I finally took the leap to get the HDFury Vertex 2 going for Dolby Vision (Thanks again to my bro Nalleh!!!)

Anyway, I’m still just in total awe of the UHD video with adding in the Vertex to get LLDV on disc and streaming from the ATV4K. I’ve got it all tweaked just how I like it and is now basically set and forget now, which is awesome. I’ve just been beyond impressed with the image from UHD disc, as well as the streaming stuff. One in particular that just blew me away was the latest “The Witcher” Season 2 on Netflix. WOWZERS, was that ever an amazing HT experience, with absolutely stunning visuals (and crazy immersive since it’s nearly full screen on my 16:9 (and I sit super close the the 120" in my tiny HT room)), an amazing Atmos track, as well as fantastic full band bass & TR with BEQ + Hover!!!

There were so many scenes that felt so crazy immersive, that it was even freaky, but I absolutely loved it. Like even in just the first section of the first episode, it seemed as if I was really in the forest etc with them and the snow coming down on and all around me ..just crazy  Plus LOTS of insane closeups and amazing colors, from cold to super warm, depending on the scene and the mood they were going for. I LOVED THIS!!!

Anyway, here's a few shots with the iPhone. I could have probably taken numerous pics for each episode, but tried not to get too carried away this time around, like I did with Valerian LOL

Geralt is just badass!!!









One of MANY super close-ups of Ciri, which just totally engulfs me sitting so close to the screen. I LOOOOVE the feeling it creates!!! There are even more extreme closeups than this, but I didn't get pics taken of them.









A shot from my seat (which doesn’t capture the whole width of the screen, but fun to do anyway). I thought the colors and warmth in this scene were amazing and looked pretty much spot on to what the camera captured here.









I was in total AWE of nearly every scene throughout this season (season 1 was killer too). Plus, pretty much every main character has such cool looking colorful eyes and is pretty mesmerizing.

In other news, I also got ezBEQ up and running as well, setup through a Raspberry Pi4. Even though I've been BEQing since the BEQ thread first started several years back over in the Bass section of the forum, I was a little late to the party of getting ezBEQ going to load them with, and had just been entering the BEQs manually into the miniDSP, then saving them. That worked just fine, but ezBEQ is soooooo much better. Is really is just so darn ez, and is named appropriately for sure . One of the many super cool things about it, is that you can even use your phone to load a BEQ. How cool is that!!??  Fast, easy, and fun, to get full band movie awesomeness...HELL YEAH!!! Oh yeah, I also added a 2x4HD miniDSP to the chain for the ezBEQ part (since it works best on the 2x4HD), even though I have all my gear on the 10x10HD. Works fantastic 

One can load a movie BEQ with ezBEQ through a PC, laptop, ipad, or phone. You just need access to a browser. Here's a few pics of the ezBEQ UI from the iphone, to give you an idea of what it looks like to load a BEQ, if you've never seen it. I just used the search for the Underworld movies for example, which I just watched recently as well. The new UHD collection was AWESOME with full band bass!!! Highly recommend if you like the Underworld movies


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## SBuger

_*Update:* Took a few more still shot pics, so figured I might as well update again while I'm thinking about it, since I sometimes seem to neglect this thread. _

*Matrix: Resurrections* was such an amazing experience 

I still want to get the UHD disc on this one, but I just went ahead and rented it on Apple+ for now. Even with streaming though, Holy Mother of WOWZERS!!!!  I’m sure it would even be better from total lossless UHD disc, so I’ll have to get it at some point for sure (the whole Matrix UHD collection).

Anyway, I was so floored by the video that I had to try to capture some of it with some still shots LOL This movie has excellent contrast (as well as colors), and is perfect for HDR. Still lovin' me some LLDV ya'll!!!  


















Side angle, as these are fun and something different from the normal head on shot









Same scene, but from the seat (even though the width is chopped off on the sides, still fun for a closer view)

























IRL, this scene looked friggin’ insane on big screen and was sooooo cool!!!!









I could have taken several more photos throughout this whole movie, but these will have to do, as there were just WAAAAY too many cool scenes that would be killer for still shots.


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## SBuger

Here’s an *UPDATE* that is way overdue LOL. It just kind of dawned on me that I never did post anything about this in my room thread here, as I only posted about it in the TR thread, as this project was about as hardcore and nutty as it gets when it comes to Tactile Response for over the top ridiculousness (which the TR thread has no problem with LOL, as a handful of us in there have pushed the boundaries to pretty crazy levels, with NOTHING being off limits )

Anyway, this is not my main Home theater seat, and I only bring it in occasionally when I’m feeling ultra froggy and want to experience some of the craziest TR abuse that can be had, well, at least the craziest that I’ve ever experienced LOL

I wanted to try my hand at a DIY TR seat, that would allow every last drop of TR to enter my body with no loss of effect whatsoever (seat springs, big cushions, etc, that absorb TR). I had a big pile of scrap wood from my numerous HoverEze builds for my main HT seat to work with, so I went to work on it, one little step at a time, trying to build a seat that fit my body size, at the recline angle that feels right to me and all that.

It ended up looking like some kind of Medieval torture device, loaded with multiple stacked drivers of 4x12” Cone Up HoverEze with double stacked tubes around each driver, 1x18” UnderButt Cone Up HoverEze with a FAT tube around the driver, 1x12” HeZeBack with a normal sized tube around the driver, as well as 6x BK LFEs in total mounted on it (4 o the base seat, and two on the SeatBack’s HeZeBack).

So here it is from the very start of the building process to where it ended up (I actually took quite a few pictures of it along the way) ...Behold the *“TR Angel of Death” *LOL:

Beginning stages of the build out in the garage …






















































Some of the first tests down in the living room, before moving it up into the Theater room upstairs …


















And finally, far enough along to move it up into the Home Theater room, first without the 18” under butt …


















With a quick and dirty temp headrest ...









Got the 18” UnderButt HeZe in there now, as well as a temporary strap on the HeZeBack driver to make sure it doesn’t tear out of there …



























Testing a bit of Godzilla vs Kong ...









I even tried dual opposed HoverEze on the base layer HeZe on this at one point, but went back to just Cone Up on base HeZe …


















Now, on to adding 6 BK LFEs to it, in addition to the 3 stacked HeZe’s: (4x12” CU HeZe+ 1x18” CU HeZeUnderButt+1x12” HeZeBack)
- first with just four (2 on each side of the seat in a HAMMER style config the way I bolted them on feet to feet)









Then all 6 BK LFEs. Instead of HAMMER style on the seat hough, I spread them out more, as well as added BKs to the seatback HeZeBack top layer plywood …



























Next step was to put on an adjustable headrest, without the BKs at first …









And of course …more testing of Godzilla vs Kong … 


















And with BK LFEs back on …




































Next step was adding a leg rest, so back to the garage where the build first started …


















Then eventually ended up putting a bit of padding on the seat, although looks like I didn’t have the BK LFEs on in these pics …




































^^^^^ So, pretty crazy project for sure, but a TON of FUN!!!!!! And for you guys that might ask, HAVE YOU LOST YOUR FREAKING MIND and GONE COMPLETELY MAD!!!??? Yes, probably so!!!!!! 

So, how does it perform and feel? Well, in a word or three …..SCARY*AS*FUK 

It will definitely test my limits, but gave me what I was after with it for sure. -20mv on a lot of the best movie demo scenes with BEQ, is about all I can handle and brings a new meaning to the phrase “Hurts So Good!!!” LMAO

This Beast even shattered my record by miles on a VibSensor reading on the Wonder Woman Bell Tower scene in the 3.5hz frequency, hitting up around 5.5 on the Z Axis. Actually it shattered my record at all frequencies, as it should have LOL









For those that are not familiar with VibSensor and readings on that scene, that is just RIDICULOUS, and blew my mind to say the least. I could have gotten it even higher, as it didn't seem to be struggling, but even the 3.5hz was starting to hurt (not to mention the higher frequencies).

There is more that I had planned to do with this crazy TR seat and probably still will at some point, but I'm through messing with it for a while. For now, except for occasionally when I get a wild hair and bring it back into my HT room for while, I use my more “Normal” TR setup “The TR Terrorizer” Hahahaha in my common style HT seat (HTMarket Pembroke) …which is no slouch either though, and gives me what I need and crave on a daily basis LOL. On this single seat I run a 4x12” Cone Up HoverEze + 1x12” HeZeBack + 3x BK LFEs (2 on the lower back crossbar of the seat and 1 on the Seatback attached to the HeZeBack platform) + 1x18” VNF (Very Near Field) sub parked right behind my seat as close as I can get it (even with the HeZeBack on the Seatback) + 1x12” MBM stacked on top of that as VNF as well ….













































In conjunction to the HoverEZe with my normal style subs spread around the room to help fill in mainly in the 25-60hz region (as I get a ton of SPL under 25hz from the HeZe), it also gives me a real nice rising FR way down into the single digits to 5hz or so, which is real nice to go with all the TR …









I actually never did test the FR with the DIY beast, but it was probably pretty decent in this little room too, as HeZe give me a ton of SPL in such a tiny sealed space.

Also, while I’m at it, I guess I might as well also show in this post too, what I was running before I went to the single seat HoverEze’s (pictured up above) for different reasons, which was killer too. I actually REALLY LOVED it as well and called it the MEGA HoverEZe (or MEGA HOVERBOSS before HoverBoss was renamed to HoverEze). It had 6x12” Cone Down drivers + 3x18” Cone Down drivers as Cantilevered + 3x12 BossBack drivers (1x on each seatback) + Loaded with 7x BKE LFEs (with one on each Seatback in the mix) + 6x Crowson MAs. The system was pretty damn SICK I must say, performing and looking ….


















Even got the Crowson MAs in there under the seat feet


















Rigged out, before attaching the seatbacks resting on top …




































Also, this crazy beast was a full band SPL MONSTER as well, as the HoverEze drivers alone, with NO normal style subs in the mix at all, would give give me a crazy 20db rising House Curve from ~80hz all the way down into the single digits to 5hz or so, as you can see in the FR graph below. This is part of the reason I went to single seat HoverEze platforms, so I could still get crazy good TR (at least on my MLP seat), while turning the outside seats down, and not have to deal with as much damn SPL, as it started wearing on my ears with the amount of TR that I like from the HeZe. In a larger room, I don’t think the SPL would have been a problem, and I’d probably STILL be rocking this MEGA HoverEZe rig if it were not for that. Eh well, it forced me to change to something else, that works just as good (and better in ways for TR) “and” I don’t have to deal with as much SPL.









Also of note, this is the TR rig config that I was using in the video on the first page of the TR thread, on the 6hz Chopper scene in Lone Survivor, if anyone has not seen that yet.





————

Anyway, there it is, kind of a trip down memory lane, at least 3 HoverEze configs I’ve had (I've tried MANY, trying to find what works best for me and my needs). That ought to be enough TR PORN to satisfy even the most perverted of TR junkies hahahahaha 

I’m super damn happy with the current TR rig I have in place now (my normal style seat tricked out as the "TR Terrorizer") and been thoroughly enjoying not building or experimenting with anything for awhile, as it gives me pretty much everything I desire and crave from a TR and Bass rig for movies, which is one of my main loves in life!!!!  I've been watching and catching up on many movies that I'm way behind on, as well as lots of new ones too.


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## ambesolman

I think that chair would help facilitate ascension to a higher plain at reference. Great job


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?


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## SBuger

Thanks for the good words!


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## stampol

http://imgur.com/kP3vetT


which episode of The witcher season 2 is this scene? do you remember the timeframe ?


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## SBuger

stampol said:


> which episode of The witcher season 2 is this scene? do you remember the timeframe ?


I don't off the top of my head. I can probably find it pretty fast though. Next time I get a chance in the theater, I'll try to track it down for ya.


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## stampol

SBuger said:


> I don't off the top of my head. I can probably find it pretty fast though. Next time I get a chance in the theater, I'll try to track it down for ya.


thanks man i ll be waiting for you


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## SBuger

stampol said:


> thanks man i ll be waiting for you


I’m really sorry, but I just could not find that scene, which really surprised me. The other two still shots from that Season 2 Witcher post were no prob to find, but not the one you wanted (probably because there are a lot of awesome close up shots of her like that throughout the whole season). I have the ATV4K, and just used the little box that pops up for a preview for timeline per episode, and just never could find it, even going through every episode twice like that. I guess I’d have to watch the whole season again to find it, which I could do, as I love Season 2 of the Witcher and wouldn't mind seeing it again. There is just so much I want to watch though, and there is just not enough time to fit it all in unfortunately. I still may do it at some point. If I do, I'll be sure to find that scene and let you know, if you don't find it before I do


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## SBuger

*Update: *_ Picked up about 15 UHD movies, as well as a *Zidoo Z9X *on Black Friday, as I’ve been wanting to get my movie collection ripped to lossless MKV for a while now, and have a nice player to play them, other than through my Oppo-203. That worked playing the MKV files through the Oppo, but was glitchee at times, as well as no pretty GUI, just the standard ole files in folders look. _

The Zidoo sure fixed that though, with a real nice eye candy type movie library (Poster Wall). I just got it going the other day, so not much time with it yet, but so far, I’ve been super impressed!!! LOVE the Poster Wall (HT 4.0) for all the movies. With SDR (~60), HDR (~120), and 3D (~40), I’ll end up with a little over 200 movies on the Network. I know that’s a tiny movie collection compared to most folks here on AVS, but we all have start somewhere right!?  Still, it’s gonna be AWESOME having them all on the Network running through the Zidoo, with eye candy graphics to see what all I have and so easy to get to on the fly ….YahHoo!!! 

So far I just have a little over 20 of the HDR movies on one of the drives, so will have to work on getting the rest of them all on there. For some visual fun, here’s a few shots of the Poster Wall …

Main Poster Wall for what 4K UHDs I have loaded at the moment…









I love how it groups all the Captain America movies collection together. I’m sure it’ll do the same for all film collections like the LOTRs, Underworlds, Harry Potters, etc.









Detail View of Captain America: Civil War...









View sitting in MLP seat of Captain America Collection (iPhone can’t quite fit it all in the frame, but gives a little closer view, as the MLP is really close to the 120")...









Side view Captain America Collection...









Detail View Captain America: 1rst Avenger front view from behind the seats...









Aquaman Detail view from the side...









Some of the screen saver images are even pretty darn cool looking / real nice eye candy...










---------

I'm just loving this little gem so far  It's just a tiny little thing and doesn't take up much room at all (I put a movie case next to it, to show how small even the box that it came in is). I should have taken one with it out of the box, but forgot I guess. Anyway, it's about the size of the pic on the box LOL










...and oh yeah, since I'm looking at that terrible pic of the BumbleBee case here and reminds me, it's worth mentioning that the even just the first 10 minute intro of this movie is just NUTS and is pure demo quality all the way ...Crazy good Full Band Bass and TR (with BEQ), Killer PQ, as well as Amazing overall sound / Atmos as well ...YEEHAW!!!  One of my new favorites for Demo (this is one I had to pic up for cheap on Black Friday). I knew it would be great HT fun when I saw the BEQ PVA & Heatmap for it!!!


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## SBuger

_*Update:*__ I posted this over in the TR thread because I mainly was just going to post about adding back in the 2x4HD miniDSP to my rig (I had it out of the rig there for a while and was using it downstairs temerportly), so that I could use ezBEQ again up in the HT. It then turned into more of a listing of some of the things that have made a tremendous difference in my room along the way, getting to where I'm at with it now, helping to contribute to that overall HT experience. So, I thought this just might be a good thing to post in my actual room thread too  ...since I seem to kind of neglect this thread and always seem to be living over in the TR thread LOL_

Got my 2x4HD back in my rig upstairs in the HT room, so I can run ezBEQ again ...YAY!!!  I found that I had an older 2x4 (non HD) that I can use downstairs, and use the 2x4HD where it’s really needed in addition to the 10x10HD..cuz I can’t have this killer Zidoo and all movies accessible with a push of a button, and not have ezBEQ to go with it . Match made in heaven I tell you  ...kind of like HeZe + BEQ 

I’d say I almost forgot how freaking awesome ezBEQ was, except for that I didn’t hahaha  I still remember how much I used to love it when I ran it there for a while, and probably needless to say, I love it just as much now, if not even more, to pair with the new discless movie library.

I really feel like I’m getting somewhere now with the HT for usability and that cutting edge performance, for those consistent mind blowing experiences. There have been so many great things that were discovered and added along the way, that I could easily say any one of them were the best addition to the theater LOL They are each so good in their own way through, that I think any one of them would probably be worthy of the title.

Some on that list that made THAT BIG of a difference along the way to get where I’m at now are …

-Going from a TV to a PJ
-Getting my KEF speakers
-AIY with my 18” subs
-VNFs (18's and MBM) in combo with the rest of the subs
-REW
-Crowson MAs
-BK LFEs
-Moving up into this little room for a dedicated HT space
-New HTMarket HT Seating
-Total Black-out of the room with velvet for waaaay better immersion and PQ
-New Denon AVR
-Audyssey MultEQ
-Atmos
-Diffusion and absorbers
-4K PJ
-Tweaked Harper Vision to really help the 4K video
-HDFury Vertex 2 for Dolby Vision to really help the 4K video
-Moving closer to my 120" 16:9 screen (ended up at about 6.5' eyes to screen for CRAZY IMMERSION
-Subwoofer Riser (when I was trying out OG BOSS and it fell off the isos, sealing the cabinet to the flooring, turning it into a 6x12” JBL cone up subwoofer riser, which I LOVED
-Adding all those other TR devices to Subwoofer Riser
-Addition of HeZe to the mix, replacing the Subwoofer Riser
-Addition of BB and HeZeBack (as I really love both!!)
-BEQ, that eventually changed into ezBEQ with the RPi4, to change BEQs so fast and easy on my phone
-Killer Baseline TR curves, as HeZe boosts and tunes like a dream
-And last but sure as hell not least, Zidoo to play all my ripped movies in lossless format (2K, 4K UHD, and 3D), with a super damn cool looking Poster Board to display them all.
- And then of course, just knowledge and experience gained over the years, learning how to tune / dial in what I really like, to help give me that ultimate experience that I crave so much.

I”m probably forgetting some, but those were all damn sure HUUUGE upgrades that made a world of difference!!!


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