# Looking for a camera security system.



## nuraman00

What's the difference between getting a camera vs. an IP camera?

How can I get help with installation? Is there a service that will install for me? Can someone do a site evaluation first? 

I know Best Buy's Geek Squad does it. It's $100 for a 90 minute site evaluation. Are there any other options for site evaluation? And then after that, how can I get help with installation? What other installation services are there?

I want at least 6 cameras and a 2TB storage. I don't want a cloud storage subscription. I want local storage.

And I want 24/7 recording, not motion based recording.

I think I'm going to record in 720p so I can get 30+ days of recording, but want the option to record in 1080p too.

Here's what I've researched:

* Companies like Q-See and Lorex can provide an 8 channel camera and DVR/NVR system, but the cameras have to be wired to the DVR. Either using BNC cables, or ethernet cables.

All of the cameras have to be wired to the same DVR, so there's going to be wires everywhere. 

Costco has an 8 camera 2TB Q-See package for $400, or a 16 channel, 8 camera 2TB package for $500.

* Companies like Nest and Canary provide wireless cameras, but you have to subscribe to cloud storage to make it worthwhile. They don't offer local storage.

* Arlo provides wireless cameras, and you can provide your own local USB storage.

https://www.costco.com/Arlo-Pro-Sma...UANOHPgeGQc2
VMSvmzIFmtm5iHsVcvuSDBVefceV2Jo=

But you can only connect to 5 cameras for free, and it only records when it detects motion.

* Night Owl has wireless cameras and a wireless DVR.

http://nightowlsp.com/products/cameras/wireless-cameras/wnvr201-88p.html

But it only records when it detects heat and motion.


Also, the hard drive in that package is only 1 TB. I can get a refurbished 6TB wireless DVR for $500. But this is the most expensive option with that 8 camera and 1 TB package for $950, and I don't like detection based recording, plus I'd have to get the 6TB hard drive to get the capacity I really want (at least 2 TB).

* Also, not available through Costco, but Q-See (first company above) also has a wireless camera, and wireless DVR. But it's only a 4 channel DVR. I want at least 6 cameras. I had to call them to find out this newer option. It's not available on Costco. And the hard drive is only 1 TB.

* LaView has some options too:

6 regular camera system with 2TB ($549):

https://www.laviewsecurity.com/prod...hannel-d0t-dvr-6-1080p-bullet-camera-2tb.html

6 IP camera system with 2TB ($899):

https://www.laviewsecurity.com/prod...channel-nvr-6-1080p-ip-bullet-camera-2tb.html


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## AErcen

I have no affiliation with this company. I am just a customer of theirs who started with a 4 camera setup and now have a 13 camera system. If you go to their site, you can get all your questions answered in a more professional and technical way than I possibly could answer them. 

IP Cameras all the way around for sure. For ease of installation, ability to make up the camera and the NVR ends of the cables with a simple inexpensive crimping tool, I can't imagine doing anything other than IP cameras. If you have specific questions feel free to ask but I can assure you, you will get a more accurate answers to all your questions if you spoke to them directly.

The company is SECURITY CAMERA WAREHOUSE. 
https://www.security-camera-warehouse.com/?gclid=CJWBuaKTxdUCFcdAhgodve0G9g

None of the people you speak to are on commission. When you start with one rep. you don't have to call back and try to reach him to pick up from where you left off, anyone can help you and they will. What I like the most dealing with them is the fact that you get a LIFETIME SUPPORT. They are never short with their answers and will spend as much time as you need to help you going, installation and support. They can do a remote to your system when you have issues or questions. Not long ago we had an incident in the neighborhood and police needed some footage of my system to identify some people and their car. I was unable to extract the video sinc I had never done it before. They spend almost an hour on the phone with me and the police helping the transfer the footage from my laptop to a USB stick or evidence.

My only recommendation is get an NVR that can expand. I started with one capable of 8 cameras, since I only had 4 cameras to begin with. It wasn't long before I exceeded the limits of the 8 camera NVR. I traded it in for a 16 camera NVR and couldn't be happier.
When you choose cameras and when you add more cameras go with the HIGHEST RESOLUTION cameras you can afford. Price difference between the 2-3-4 MP cameras are minimal. You can also buy an NVR from them and add your OWN hard drive(s).

As for their pricing... I had a local security company who has done my home see me doing all the cabling and installing the cameras and they wanted to know where I got my stuff and what I paid. He was impressed that they were the SAME IDENTICAL cameras they were using sold under different brand names and the prices were lower than what he was paying to buy them at wholesale. 

If I sound too enthusiastic about them, please don't mistake me as a shill for them. I am only a customer.

They have all the software you will need to make the system work on your PC, Iphone, Android and even Mac.
Try them.


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## highmr

Sounds like you want to buy a system. The problem with that is when something needs to be replaced, it might mess up the entire setup. Better to have components that are compatible with other components.
Also, some software doesn't allow 24/7 recording, so be sure to check on that.
Some basic things that work for me:
Use PoE routers (power over ethernet). That way you can run low voltage ethernet lines to each camera but don't need to worry about providing power (which is higher voltage and requires more know how to install). 
Then, get IP cameras that accept the power and data transfer over ethernet. I like to shop for cameras at a company called Nellie's security (on the web). Note that some cameras carry sound and some don't. Night vision capability (distance) is a big difference between cameras. Also, how obvious are the night vision lights? IMO best is not being visible at night to the naked eye.
For software, I use Blue Iris. It isn't that expensive and does the 24/7 thing that I wanted. You can also get alerts or mark motion events while still doing 24/7 recording. The web site has a list of cameras that are known to work. Other cameras can probably be made to work too, it depends on the protocols. 
I store the data on a desktop computer, not a DVR. It is mostly dedicated for this. Just needs adequate video capability and hard drive. 
The cameras themselves (from the companies I have tried) have rather poor instructions and setup software, that is where you might want help (but eventually I can figure them out). Running the ethernet line just depends on your do it yourself level.
In general, I find the network setup much more robust if I assign each camera's MAC address to permanently have a certain IP address in my router.
The room I could drop lines from the roof to a PoE router is not next to my regular router or my computer. So what I actually have is a computer connected wirelessly to my network in one room. In another room I have the PoE router connected to a wireless bridge. Then the wires go from the PoE router to each camera. You can stack multiples of these, I believe. I have a 4 channel PoE router so I don't have to do this as I only have 4 cameras. I ran the lines in the attic above the insulation. Then they go out on to the roof to reach my camera points. 
You need really long ethernet cable and you don't want splices outside if possible, where they would be exposed to the elements.


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## nuraman00

AErcen said:


> I have no affiliation with this company. I am just a customer of theirs who started with a 4 camera setup and now have a 13 camera system. If you go to their site, you can get all your questions answered in a more professional and technical way than I possibly could answer them.
> 
> IP Cameras all the way around for sure. For ease of installation, ability to make up the camera and the NVR ends of the cables with a simple inexpensive crimping tool, I can't imagine doing anything other than IP cameras. If you have specific questions feel free to ask but I can assure you, you will get a more accurate answers to all your questions if you spoke to them directly.


Functionally, what are the pros of an IP camera vs. an analog camera?

Both of these come with non IP cameras, right?

https://www.costco.com/Q-See-8-Chan...-with-80'-Night-Vision.product.100282096.html

https://www.costco.com/Lorex-16-Cha...with-130'-Night-Vision.product.100308823.html

But this next one comes with IP cameras?

https://www.costco.com/Lorex-8-Chan...with-130'-Night-Vision.product.100341507.html


What do you mean "ability to make up the camera"?


Why is installation of an IP camera easier? Is there something about connecting PoE cables that's easier than BNC cables?


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## nuraman00

AErcen said:


> The company is SECURITY CAMERA WAREHOUSE.
> https://www.security-camera-warehouse.com/?gclid=CJWBuaKTxdUCFcdAhgodve0G9g
> 
> None of the people you speak to are on commission. When you start with one rep. you don't have to call back and try to reach him to pick up from where you left off, anyone can help you and they will. What I like the most dealing with them is the fact that you get a LIFETIME SUPPORT. They are never short with their answers and will spend as much time as you need to help you going, installation and support. They can do a remote to your system when you have issues or questions. Not long ago we had an incident in the neighborhood and police needed some footage of my system to identify some people and their car. I was unable to extract the video sinc I had never done it before. They spend almost an hour on the phone with me and the police helping the transfer the footage from my laptop to a USB stick or evidence.
> 
> My only recommendation is get an NVR that can expand. I started with one capable of 8 cameras, since I only had 4 cameras to begin with. It wasn't long before I exceeded the limits of the 8 camera NVR. I traded it in for a 16 camera NVR and couldn't be happier.
> When you choose cameras and when you add more cameras go with the HIGHEST RESOLUTION cameras you can afford. Price difference between the 2-3-4 MP cameras are minimal. You can also buy an NVR from them and add your OWN hard drive(s).
> 
> As for their pricing... I had a local security company who has done my home see me doing all the cabling and installing the cameras and they wanted to know where I got my stuff and what I paid. He was impressed that they were the SAME IDENTICAL cameras they were using sold under different brand names and the prices were lower than what he was paying to buy them at wholesale.
> 
> If I sound too enthusiastic about them, please don't mistake me as a shill for them. I am only a customer.
> 
> They have all the software you will need to make the system work on your PC, Iphone, Android and even Mac.
> Try them.


Thanks for the recommendation.

Did you mount everything yourself? If I wanted a professional installation for mounting the cameras, who or what service options are there?


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## nuraman00

highmr said:


> Also, how obvious are the night vision lights? IMO best is not being visible at night to the naked eye.


Are you asking how visible are my motion sensor lights which I have (not related to any camera security system)?


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## nuraman00

highmr said:


> Sounds like you want to buy a system. The problem with that is when something needs to be replaced, it might mess up the entire setup. Better to have components that are compatible with other components.
> Also, some software doesn't allow 24/7 recording, so be sure to check on that.
> Some basic things that work for me:
> *Use PoE routers (power over ethernet). * That way you can run low voltage ethernet lines to each camera but don't need to worry about providing power (which is higher voltage and requires more know how to install).
> Then, get IP cameras that accept the power and data transfer over ethernet. I like to shop for cameras at a company called Nellie's security (on the web). Note that some cameras carry sound and some don't. Night vision capability (distance) is a big difference between cameras. Also, how obvious are the night vision lights? IMO best is not being visible at night to the naked eye.
> For software, I use Blue Iris. It isn't that expensive and does the 24/7 thing that I wanted. You can also get alerts or mark motion events while still doing 24/7 recording. The web site has a list of cameras that are known to work. Other cameras can probably be made to work too, it depends on the protocols.
> I store the data on a desktop computer, not a DVR. It is mostly dedicated for this. Just needs adequate video capability and hard drive.
> The cameras themselves (from the companies I have tried) have rather poor instructions and setup software, that is where you might want help (but eventually I can figure them out). Running the ethernet line just depends on your do it yourself level.
> In general, I find the network setup much more robust if I assign each camera's MAC address to permanently have a certain IP address in my router.
> The room I could drop lines from the roof to a PoE router is not next to my regular router or my computer. So what I actually have is a computer connected wirelessly to my network in one room. In another room I have the PoE router connected to a wireless bridge. Then the wires go from the PoE router to each camera. You can stack multiples of these, I believe. I have a 4 channel PoE router so I don't have to do this as I only have 4 cameras. I ran the lines in the attic above the insulation. Then they go out on to the roof to reach my camera points.
> You need really long ethernet cable and you don't want splices outside if possible, where they would be exposed to the elements.


Can I use the router I currently have for my home network?


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## FlyingDiver

nuraman00 said:


> Can I use the router I currently have for my home network?


Yes, you'll just need to use power inserters or a POE switch to get power to the cameras.


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## AErcen

*Functionally, what are the pros of an IP camera vs. an analog camera?*

"The best analog surveillance camera still can't hold a candle to the worst IP camera when it comes to the resolution of the image it captures. At best, an analog camera can manage the equivalent of less than half a megapixel, whereas a Megapixel camera wouldn't be much good if it didn't produce an image of at least ONE of the things it's named after. Many of the Everfocus cameras we stock are available in 1.3, 2, or 3mp configurations, which is far better quality than you could hope to achieve with a traditional CCTV camera. Additionally, IP cameras capture a much wider field of view than comparable analog cameras, meaning a single IP camera is potentially able to do the job of three to four of the old school cams"
"In a traditional analog DVR set-up, each camera must be connected directly to the DVR. IP cameras can circumvent this through the use of switches, which allow cameras in close proximity to each other to be connected to a single switch, which then runs a single wire to the NVR (Network Video Recorder). This reduces the amount of cabling runs, which makes it ultimately less labor intensive, and also allows you to connect more cameras because you're no longer limited by the number of ports on your DVR. On top of that, using a PoE (Power over Ethernet) switch allows your Cat 5e or Cat 6 cable to run the signal AND provide power to your camera, eliminating the need for a separate power supply"

*Both of these come with non IP cameras, right?
https://www.costco.com/Q-See-8-Chann...100282096.html*

No. This is an analog system. It says so in their own ad.

*https://www.costco.com/Lorex-16-Chan...100308823.html*

No. This also is an analog system. It says so right on top of the ad

*But this next one comes with IP cameras?
https://www.costco.com/Lorex-8-Chann...100341507.html*

Yes


*What do you mean "ability to make up the camera"?*

It was a typo. I meant to say -ability to make up the CABLE ends.The cable that connects the camera and the NVR. Good luck doing that with the cables on analog cameras that use BNC connectors. With IP cameras you can buy a spool of CAT5 cable an run a single cable long distances and cut the cable crimp the ends without buying pre-made cables. The inexpensive CAT 5 cable would carry the DC voltage to power the cameras, as well as the video signal and audio where employed. NOT so with the expensive coaxial cable. You would still need DC voltage to power the cameras with another wire that piggy-backs the coaxial cable.


*Why is installation of an IP camera easier? Is there something about connecting PoE cables that's easier than BNC cables?*

I think all those questions can be easily answered with a simple search or going to the link I provided. Like I said you can give those people or any other company that sells this stuff and ask THEM the same questions. Let whomever you decide to patronize answer those questions for you so there is an accountability on their part. Me and others giving you our own opinions don't have anything to gain or lose if we provided bad information. 
CAT cables are easier to work with. Single CHEAP cable is all you need between the camera and the NVR. Try pricing BNC connectors. Go to YouTube and look for "how to attach BNC connectors to coax cable", you will quickly learn the answer to your question why it is easier.

The packages sold at Home Depot, Costco, or Staples all come with a set length of cables, don't they? Are they long enough to place the cameras where you want them? What THEN? Have you done a site study that will help you determine how many cameras you will need or the proper coverage? The link I gave you will help you with it.


*Did you mount everything yourself? If I wanted a professional installation for mounting the cameras, who or what service options are there?*
Yes I mounted them where I wanted them. The cameras and the system I used are PLUG and PLAY. I didn't have to buy any software, or do any programming. I hooked everything up where I wanted. The cameras come with the hardware, connectors, screws needed including the weatherproof housing and connectors. Once I mounted them where I want them, I called Security camera warehouse and they did a remote connection to my Laptop and set everything up. 30 minutes on the phone I was up and running. I also installed the software for my IPad, iPhone and my Desktop PC. They did all the software installation remotely while I watched. NO CHARGE. 
If you don't want to climb ladders or crawl in attics running wires and installing cameras yourself, you can call ANY one of the Security companies in your town. They'll do it for you but they WILL charge plenty. With the company I went, there are no monthly fees, any contracts, or any monitoring. You do it all. You can monitor your cameras from anywhere in the world as long as you have a cell phone or a laptop or a computer.


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## highmr

nuraman00 said:


> Are you asking how visible are my motion sensor lights which I have (not related to any camera security system)?


No. Many cameras have night vision. This is generally IR which is non visible spectrum, but often times there are glaringly obvious red lights visible to the naked eye. This can be annoying and makes the cameras easier to avoid (by a burglar, for example). If you want them to be deterrent you might want the visible red lights, though.


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## highmr

nuraman00 said:


> Can I use the router I currently have for my home network?


You can connect your existing wireless and wired router (in my case a wireless bridge) to a wired PoE router. If you use IP cameras then the PoE router is a convenient way to access them. If you want "wireless" IP cameras you will need to provide power to them but then you don't need the PoE router. My preference was to not run new power line, hence the PoE which only requires running ethernet.


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## nuraman00

AErcen said:


> *What do you mean "ability to make up the camera"?*
> 
> It was a typo. I meant to say -ability to make up the CABLE ends.The cable that connects the camera and the NVR. Good luck doing that with the cables on analog cameras that use BNC connectors. With IP cameras you can buy a spool of CAT5 cable an run a single cable long distances and cut the cable crimp the ends without buying pre-made cables. The inexpensive CAT 5 cable would carry the DC voltage to power the cameras, as well as the video signal and audio where employed. NOT so with the expensive coaxial cable. You would still need DC voltage to power the cameras with another wire that piggy-backs the coaxial cable.



Thank you. I hadn't considered just buying a spool of CAT5, and then crimping it. It does make it easier to install, and provides an alternative to pre-made cables.





AErcen said:


> The packages sold at Home Depot, Costco, or Staples all come with a set length of cables, don't they? Are they long enough to place the cameras where you want them? What THEN? Have you done a site study that will help you determine how many cameras you will need or the proper coverage? The link I gave you will help you with it.



I want to do a site survey. Hence another item of information I was looking for in this thread. I went to your link again. You are right, that company says they do a free floorpan service.

Thanks for the other answers too. Once I decide what system to get, I will check with security companies to see how they price installation.

I don't have a ladder (only some step ladders), nor a car big enough to transport one. Plus I'd prefer someone else going up to the roof area.


One more question. How can I get a better estimate of how many hours/days can be recorded? Is there a chart somewhere that says if I have X size hard drive and I record at 720p, then this is the number of days or hours? And the same for 1080p, 3MP. Or is there a ratio? Such as 1 hour at 720p takes much this much space, and 1080p takes up this much, and 3 MP takes up this much.


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## nuraman00

highmr said:


> No. Many cameras have night vision. This is generally IR which is non visible spectrum, but often times there are glaringly obvious red lights visible to the naked eye. This can be annoying and makes the cameras easier to avoid (by a burglar, for example). If you want them to be deterrent you might want the visible red lights, though.



Thanks.


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## nuraman00

I'm going to call some of the companies and also ask some of the same questions. I just want other peoples' opinions too, that aren't affiliated with any company.


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## nuraman00

If I want to use a HDTV downstairs that would be connected to the NVR, as well as use a monitor upstairs for viewing the cameras, what would be the best way to do that?

Like if I wanted a wall mounted monitor upstairs that I could just turn on and view the cameras. That would be the sole purpose of the upstairs monitor.

I would need to duplicate the HDMI signal from the NVR, right? So that one would go to the TV downstairs, and one to the monitor upstairs?

Would I need something like this?

https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-SB...rd_wg=wkou0&psc=1&refRID=APRK61V40NFAVQ6XDSZC


Or would there be a "in the wall" solution where they could split and route the cable upstairs?


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## AErcen

nuraman00 said:


> One more question. How can I get a better estimate of how many hours/days can be recorded? Is there a chart somewhere that says if I have X size hard drive and I record at 720p, then this is the number of days or hours? And the same for 1080p, 3MP. Or is there a ratio? Such as 1 hour at 720p takes much this much space, and 1080p takes up this much, and 3 MP takes up this much.


At the link I provided to you, there is a calculator that will answer those questions or you.

https://www.security-camera-warehouse.com/cctv-record-time-calculator.php/


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## nuraman00

AErcen said:


> At the link I provided to you, there is a calculator that will answer those questions or you.
> 
> https://www.security-camera-warehouse.com/cctv-record-time-calculator.php/


Thanks.

I called Swann and Lorex, as these are the two models I'm narrowing in on.

https://www.costco.com/Swann-16-Cha...with-115'-Night-Vision.product.100144944.html

https://www.costco.com/Lorex-16-Cha...with-130'-Night-Vision.product.100290776.html

Here were their answers.

+++++++++++++++

*Swann:*

* Hard drive is expandable, there's a second slot.

I asked if I put on a second hard drive, would they work in conjunction. As in, when recording on one filled up, would it go to the next? The person said no, putting in a second hard drive acts as a replacement for the other.

I'm going to call again and ask, maybe I'll get someone else.

* I asked about installation. They referred me to their preferred 3rd party company, Installer Net.

* I asked about recording capacity for a 3TB. While I trust the link above more, here were their answers.

* @ 3MP, ~ 7 days
@ 1080p, ~ 10 days.

I think I need to ask what the recording frame rate is, and whether it's configurable. They did say that @ 3MP, it records at 15 frames/sec.

* Up to 6 TB per hard drive slot.

*Installer Net:*

* Installation is $100-$200 per camera.

Factors that affect the rate per camera are:

* Whether it's more than 60 feet away from the NVR.
* The mounting surface.
* How much the cables are concealed. Do I want it on the ceiling, or behind the wall?
* If I want it configured to the internet. If I want it accessible on a mobile device, they'll have to do port forwarding, which will increase the installation rate.

*Lorex:*

* Hard drive is expandable, there's a second slot. Each slot can be expanded up to 6 TB. This person said the hard drives would work in conjunction.
* I asked about installation. They said to look for CCTV installer companies.
* I asked about recording capacity for 3 TB. 

Their estimates:

@ 3MP, 7-10 days
@ 1080p, ~ 1.5 weeks
@ 720p, ~ 3 weeks

+++++++++++++++++++++

Using the calculator above from @AErcen, if I want 8 cameras @ 1080p, 30 frames/sec and 30 days of recording, I would need 14G. @ 720p, 10G. If I use 6 cameras, it's 10.2 G @ 1080p and 7.4G @ 720p.

How many frames should I do? 30? 15?


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## nuraman00

If I'm going to replace the hard drive, I might as well max out the capacity and replace both.

I can get the Lorex model with 2TB instead of 3TB:

https://www.costco.com/Lorex-8-Chan...with-130'-Night-Vision.product.100341507.html

And get 2 of these and put them in both slots:

https://www.amazon.com/6TB-Hard-Dri...n_feature_keywords_four_browse-bin:8067154011

Are there any data transfer rates or other specs for the hard drives that I should look at?


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## AErcen

Buddy,
I tried to help you the best way I could, but I don't think I am doing much good. You sound like you have made your mind up and know what you want.

If you had listened to me and called the people I recommended, ALL your questions would have been answered more accurately that they have been so far. As a matter of fact you could have called one of MANY places that sell this stuff. I mentioned SCW because that is ALL they sell. No alarms, car stereos, TV's or camera equipment. They know their stuff. I bet there are others who do also. I have an experience with them and don't with the others.

The beauty of it is, you don't even have to buy anything from them to have your questions answered. 
How knowledgeable is the Costco cashier and how well can they answer your questions?

They are ALL expandable if you buy an NVR that has more ports than the initial number of cameras you bought with it. I think that was my FIRST advice to you. Buy an NVR that is capable of expansion. Especially the way you are going about this, it is almost a given without the proper site study you will discover you don't have coverage here and there, then you will decide it would be nice to have a camera pointed at your door or your mail box or maybe an indoor camera or two..etc. etc. At that point you have an NVR that can't handle the load and you have to discard it or try selling it on Craig's List for $50.00

When I bought my system, I was able to buy an NVR bare without any hard drives. It is easier to buy them on New Egg or Amazon. They are not just regular run of the mill hard drives either. They are purpose built Hard Drives for Security Camera work. In pre packaged systems you are likely to encounter at Costco or Home Depot I doubt they are going to let you take out whatever HD the manufacturer included and give you credit for it so you can buy your own. Whatever is in it will definitely be no enough storage for what you are trying to do. If it comes with a 2TB and you add a 6TB you are done. There is usually no a THIRD bay to install another If you start with one bay already occupied and you want more storage. You can sell THAT hard drive on CL also along with the NVR to free up the bay. That too should get you $50.

You see where I am going with this? By buying a package you are denying yourself the ability to customize it for your own needs. They are deciding the length of the cable, the size of the NVR, the hard drives, and the number of cameras, as well as the KIND of cameras. Are all the cameras for identical purpose? Do they cover 30-60-90 degrees? Do you need 30-60-90 coverage? Do you need the same camera for your front door as you do for your backyard or your mail box? Probably not. What customization are you able to do? NONE. 

All you are doing is saving a few bucks on the package, only to turn around spend $100-$200 to install each camera? Some of my cameras did not even cost $200. I am using 4 different cameras for different purposes. That is what ala carte purchase allows you do to. 

I am not surprised the installers will charge you based on the distance of the camera from the NVR. They probably don't want to make up cables and cable ends either. 
If you really don't want to do any of the work yourself, find a local company and let them do everything including purchasing the equipment from them. I seriously doubt they would charge you $200 to install their own equipment.

Installation rate goes up if you want to be able to view your cameras on the internet? Are you kidding me? I think I also mentioned this earlier. If you deal with SCW, upon installation even BEFORE final installation they do all that port forwarding etc. that needed to be done remotely. NO CHARGE. There is also NO CHARGE for access to your system on your phone, laptop, or tablet. They provide that service INDEFINITELY. All software for viewing and playback are also FREE.

What would happen if your cable company replaced your router? You would probably call your installer and they will have to charge you to to make things work again. When you change phones, what do you do? Pay them again for "port forwarding"..

I realize this purchase can be frustrating. This is not something we buy often an most of us know very little about it. Mistakes are made and equipment is mothballed because we didn't do enough homework. You are going about this both The RIGHT way and the WRONG way. You are doing enough homework to be dangerous and you are steering the advice you are getting from others, back to Costco. Fine. I shop at Costco too. Good meat department. Security cameras? Not so much. 

I am not trying to be rude but you will go into this half cocked and a little more informed than you were when you first posted. 
Spend a little time on the link I gave you and you will realize what different cameras do at different resolutions and probably will walk away with some appreciation of the differences between a $600 system and a $1600 system


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## Timothy Wright

I have had a security CATV system for perhaps 10 years now. I don't live in the best neighborhood. At the time I did my first install I pulled coax cable. I had an incident of vandalism whereby some local cherubs tagged my retaining wall with spray paint and because the rock is porous the paint could not be completely removed and it ended up costing my home insurance company $19,000. The police had no interest in prosecuting because the DVD quality video was better quality.

Oh, and I had a violent stalker.

I learned a lesson, quality matters.

Let me backtrack, About ten years ago I called my local Roman Catholic dioceses office because they generally use the best local installers of camera and alarm systems. I can't recommend franchise installers like Guardian Protection services or ADT or comcast, their stuff is junk. I had a comcast cable guy at my house and he was shocked when he saw the high quality of my cameras. 

My alarm system cost me about $1000, my 16 cameras, dvr maybe $9,000.

I doubled my cameras from 8 to 16, and doubled the camera resolution to 1080 or better. What I updated had to work with what I already had. I have 4 interior hidden cameras. floyer, living room, garage interior, game room. I have the "inside" of every exterior door covered.

If I had to start fresh, I'd have all all IP system. All high quality, high resolution cameras. Professional installers are expert wire pullers and expert at hidden cameras and alarms. They can pull wire for 16 cameras in 4 hours. I can't compete with a guy who pulls wire every day all day long for decades. 

My new alibi DVD supports (3) 4TB hard drives. I filled it when new with WD red drives and they work just fine. One can assign cameras to any given hard drive so in effect all hard drives turn all the time. Otherwise 2/3 hard drive would sit idle 4-6 months at a time. Assigning hard drives improves HD longevity and frame rates.

My install was not "turn-key" , I cooperated with camera selection, placement and aim. 

All those IR cameras are energy hungry and my DVD has a 1500VA UPS. It will run a few hours with the power off during the day and for maybe an hour at night.

I would recommend saving or borrowing $5-10k and get a highly qualified professional, anything less and you will have a toy system.


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## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> I have had a security CATV system for perhaps 10 years now. I don't live in the best neighborhood. At the time I did my first install I pulled coax cable. I had an incident of vandalism whereby some local cherubs tagged my retaining wall with spray paint and because the rock is porous the paint could not be completely removed and it ended up costing my home insurance company $19,000. *The police had no interest in prosecuting because the DVD quality video was better quality.*


What did you mean by this? Did you have DVD quality? Or the police wouldn't prosecute because you didn't have that quality?



Timothy Wright said:


> * My install was not "turn-key" , I cooperated with camera selection, placement and aim. *
> 
> All those IR cameras are energy hungry and my DVD has a 1500VA UPS. It will run a few hours with the power off during the day and for maybe an hour at night.
> 
> I would recommend saving or borrowing $5-10k and get a highly qualified professional, anything less and you will have a toy system.


You mean the installer didn't do the camera selection, placement, and aim for you, but rather you decided on what you wanted. Right?


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## Timothy Wright

@nuraman00

> What did you mean by this? Did you have DVD quality? Or the police wouldn't prosecute because you didn't have that quality?

The kids were wearing hoodies, it was at night, with DVD (640) quality one could not make a positive facial ID at that distance (40-50') with my video, I was very unhappy. One cop told me he knew exactly who was on the video because the same three kids were caught spraying over traffic signs the week before. I suspect the police did not want to ruin someone's young life. That's not my problem, cost my insurance company $19,000 and I think mercy is an issue for the judge to consider after prosecution and restitution. 

> You mean the installer didn't do the camera selection, placement, and aim for you, but rather you decided on what you wanted. Right?

The installer selected wide view cameras for good over lap. I found the images useless for use in court because the images we so distorted. I had the cameras replaced with normal view cameras and later doubled the cameras (with 1080) to fill in between the existing camera coverage. I now have very ample coverage and OK detail. My next camera system will step up in image quality all over again.

We agreed on initial placement ( a consult situation), the second purchase filled in the uncovered areas.

I stood out in the yard with my laptop until I was happy with the aim. No I did not get up on the ladder myself and perform the physical aim.

The same company did both my alarm system and CCTV camera system. I like their work and I consider both systems a cooperative venture. After reading this topic for two days I now understand that some tech heavyweights reside here. Having acknowledged that; it is one thing if one has problems with their automated blinds; but I would argue that for alarms and cameras work with a pro to get it right the first time. Some HA is mission critical and some is not.

I am in the market for a new home. It would be new construction and feature some home automation by design. I will be very involved in the planning, some things are very important to me other features less so. Everyone's priorities will be different. 

I'll be involved with the architect to make sure I have all the wire runs I'll ever need, with the security people to make sure all my bases are covered so to speak. I think any successful venture involves good communication between home owner and the people doing the work. At my age I have no real interest in pulling wire, my interest is in project management and meeting project objectives.

When I was initially involved in the original camera system my instructions were: "If someone is playing cards on my patio I want to be able to read their hand." The installer went with expensive but low resolution cameras because he thought they were good enough. He told me that these cameras were the best made, he lied. In hindsight I should have been more involved. That project manager is no longer with the company. I like what they have done with me since.

self > About ten years ago I called my local Roman Catholic dioceses

A local parish had a problem with missing money. This company was call in when when the assistant pastor was on vacation and put a hidden camera opposite the wall safe. Before long the parish had a video of the assistant pastor grazing in the wall safe at 3 am. Those are my kind of security / camera people. 

Once I was in a empty church, I kissed the Blessed Sacrament (box) as an act of piety. All the alarms went off, a cloistered nun came running to see what I was up to. I do like these security people, I can work with them, I enjoy working with them. I think they are very capable and cooperative. 

In my experience the independent installers are doing much better work that franchise companies. The hardware, ADT, comcast, and guardian sells is walmart-costco quality; and will always disappoint. I think those cheap systems make home owners feel safe until there is a need for security and then the home owners will be greatly disappointed. 

I am a huge fan of cameras. An alarm system will tell someone they have been robed after a crackhead did a smash and dash. With cameras problems just avoid me like the plague. Folks cross the street to avoid using my sidewalk. I had a crackhouse next door. I put a bird feeder on my fence and put a camera on the bird feeder. The camera also documented everyone on the front porch next door. The crack heads moved out. They did not want live there with a 24/7 camera on their front door.


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## nuraman00

@Timothy Wright, thanks for the response.


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## Timothy Wright

@ Nuraman00 You are very welcome

I am still learning my way around HA. My aunt has an alarm system which was not playing nice with Comcast VoIP. Today I was over there for hours with an alarm tech. We tried but can't get good cell reception. We tried a radio as a way to send an alarm but also did not work. 

Next we will change the main alarm board to something newer and hope it works well with local VoIP.

If I buy/build the home of my dreams it could have as much wiring as the space shuttle, I have NVR in one closet, (2) NAS on a shelf in my office with the modem and router and switch. I would pull maybe (4) Cat5 per room, 16+ cameras, I could end up with 100 cat5 runs, (not all active and in use) I'd be crazy not to have structured wiring and an equipment rack (rack mounted everything possible)

I know that I am crazy but not near the craziest. I wonder how many other folks have a nice network closet with rack mount stuff? I'd like to some photos of that for ideas, Nice orderly wiring closets are not only very professional but are a blue collar art form. 

If I had to start all over again I'd have all IP megapixel cameras (+5MP 2592 x 1920) The more resolution the better and GB Ethernet can manage the load and the right NVR and record that much at one time. Assuming I move some place more rural and use motion sensing the actual work load becomes very manageable. I remember when crappy cameras were $450 each, now with very good cameras very reasonable I see possibilities for more cameras and much higher resolution as the way to go.


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## MarlenMir

I think Ip cameras are more prone to disturbance. The signal easily gets disturbed with poor climatic conditions.


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## MarlenMir

I mean if it is wireless.


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## Timothy Wright

Even my first 8 camera system over coax was not wireless. Wireless cameras are incapable of megapixel resolution. In my experience wired IP high resolution is the way to go as camera prices drop.


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## nuraman00

When someone wires ethernet cables through/behind the walls, does that mean it's behind the sheetrock?

If so, does this mean the same thing as electrical wires are routed from one room to another? Kind of like how 2 or 3 rooms can have their electrical outlets connected.


----------



## Timothy Wright

nuraman00 said:


> When someone wires ethernet cables through/behind the walls, does that mean it's behind the sheetrock?
> 
> If so, does this mean the same thing as electrical wires are routed from one room to another? Kind of like how 2 or 3 rooms can have their electrical outlets connected.


One can terminate cat 5 or cat 6 on punch down blocks, in my case with an old house I pulled cat 6 wire that that was already terminated on both ends. The the wall plate had a double female socket for RJ45 so in effect I ran 30' or 50' cat 6 patch cable from wall plate to wall plate up the walls to my attic and then down the wall to the next wall plate. Then one needs a two more short patch cables, one from wall plate to switch at the wiring closet and another from the wall plate to the TV. 

In new construction I'd run the cat 6 wires in conduit to protect them from someone like me who might drive a nail in a wall to hang a painting or use a dry wall screw to hang sheet rock.

I hope that helps.

Where I have TVs I have a double RJ45 wall plate so I don't just have wires coming out of the wall. I have only two TV so on the closet side which is in my home office I have a four RJ45 wall plate so it all looks nice. 

For my (16) cameras I am using a real closet as a wiring closet. I have a large scoop shaped wall plate where (16) RG6 and (16) 16/2 wires penetrate the wall at the terminal box. The wires all go up into the attic and over to the overhang where exterior cameras are mounted. For my (4) interior cameras the wires come down with in interior walls to where the cameras are mounted. I have no wireless cameras. If I had to do it all over again I would hard wire cameras with Cat 6 not RG6 but parts of my CCTV system is 10 years old.


----------



## freeoscar

nuraman00 said:


> When someone wires ethernet cables through/behind the walls, does that mean it's behind the sheetrock?
> 
> If so, does this mean the same thing as electrical wires are routed from one room to another? Kind of like how 2 or 3 rooms can have their electrical outlets connected.


No, that's not how ethernet, or other low voltage cables (phone, security) work. All of the wires are 'home run' to a central location (a wiring closet typically), where they are terminated. So if you have 10 ethernet ports in your house, and another 6 cameras, you'd have 16 different runs of wiring that all come to the same place. There they are terminated (usually on a punch block) and then connected to the 'source' - a switch/router or the camera NVR. Cable/Satellite co-ax is usually done the same way (but terminated straight into the splitter), though it can be split and daisy chained, though the preference is definitely to have it home-run.


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## nuraman00

I tried calling Dahua yesterday and today, and selected the sales extension.

It just goes to voice mail.

I left a voice mail yesterday and never got a call back.

http://www.dahuasecurity.com/en/us/contact.php

EDIT: They just called me back, see a few posts below.


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## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> One can terminate cat 5 or cat 6 on punch down blocks, in my case with an old house I pulled cat 6 wire that that was already terminated on both ends. The the wall plate had a double female socket for RJ45 so in effect I ran 30' or 50' cat 6 patch cable from wall plate to wall plate up the walls to my attic and then down the wall to the next wall plate. Then one needs a two more short patch cables, one from wall plate to switch at the wiring closet and another from the wall plate to the TV.
> 
> In new construction I'd run the cat 6 wires in conduit to protect them from someone like me who might drive a nail in a wall to hang a painting or use a dry wall screw to hang sheet rock.
> 
> I hope that helps.
> 
> Where I have TVs I have a double RJ45 wall plate so I don't just have wires coming out of the wall. I have only two TV so on the closet side which is in my home office I have a four RJ45 wall plate so it all looks nice.
> 
> For my (16) cameras I am using a real closet as a wiring closet. I have a large scoop shaped wall plate where (16) RG6 and (16) 16/2 wires penetrate the wall at the terminal box. The wires all go up into the attic and over to the overhang where exterior cameras are mounted. For my (4) interior cameras the wires come down with in interior walls to where the cameras are mounted. I have no wireless cameras. If I had to do it all over again I would hard wire cameras with Cat 6 not RG6 but parts of my CCTV system is 10 years old.





freeoscar said:


> No, that's not how ethernet, or other low voltage cables (phone, security) work. All of the wires are 'home run' to a central location (a wiring closet typically), where they are terminated. So if you have 10 ethernet ports in your house, and another 6 cameras, you'd have 16 different runs of wiring that all come to the same place. There they are terminated (usually on a punch block) and then connected to the 'source' - a switch/router or the camera NVR. Cable/Satellite co-ax is usually done the same way (but terminated straight into the splitter), though it can be split and daisy chained, though the preference is definitely to have it home-run.


Thanks for both of your explanations.

I don't have any RJ45 wall plates currently.

Since I'm getting an installer, would the installer need / want to install one?

Or would I run a cable from every camera to the NVR?


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## nuraman00

Just a mini update of sorts.

* I called a local company, Cypress Video. They gave me an estimate for 5 cameras, a NVR, and a 22" monitor. With installation.

They don't do 3rd party installation.

When I asked about whether I should get varifocal lens cameras, they said no, and that fixed lens have better resolution. Not sure I agree with that.

* California Security Camera: They are working on my estimate.

They are fine with either their products, or installing 3rd party products.

* Security Camera Warehouse: They want floor plans and pictures, so I'm working on putting that together so I can get an estimate.

* PSS Electronics: Have an appointment next week for an estimate.

* Dahua: The sales rep just called me back. Another sales rep will be in contact with me and refer me to retailers and installers. Will also work with me about an estimate (but I think that will be more about product information before referring me to the installer).


I need to find out if any of these offer technical support on the weekends, as that could be a difference maker.


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## Timothy Wright

@freeoscar

You did a much better job explaining that than I did now that I reread it,

Thank you.


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## nuraman00

nuraman00 said:


> Thanks for both of your explanations.
> 
> I don't have any RJ45 wall plates currently.
> 
> Since I'm getting an installer, would the installer need / want to install one?
> 
> Or would I run a cable from every camera to the NVR?


@*freeoscar, @*Timothy Wright, what do you think?


----------



## freeoscar

nuraman00 said:


> @*freeoscar, @*Timothy Wright, what do you think?


If you don't already have ethernet throughout the house, and therefore no sort of structured cable setup, you don't really need to set one up just for the cameras. You can just wire the cameras directly into the NVR. I'm assuming that these are POE cameras and that the NVR has a built in POE switch. Otherwise you'd need to get power to the cameras otherwise, through some type of PoE injector. But the first case is more likely (that the NVR has PoE built in).


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## nuraman00

freeoscar said:


> If you don't already have ethernet throughout the house, and therefore no sort of structured cable setup, you don't really need to set one up just for the cameras. You can just wire the cameras directly into the NVR. I'm assuming that these are POE cameras and that the NVR has a built in POE switch. Otherwise you'd need to get power to the cameras otherwise, through some type of PoE injector. But the first case is more likely (that the NVR has PoE built in).


Yeah, right now I don't have any structured setup.

I just have one ethernet cable from my router to my desktop, and another one from my router to my Tivo. Both my desktop and my TV+ Tivo are near each other.

Those are the only hardwired connections I have.

So it wouldn't facilitate anything to have ethernet cables run behind walls, or to create a structured setup? It wouldn't be cleaner? For example, if I had a camera on the outside at each of the front, back, and sides of the house, it wouldn't be any cleaner to run them behind walls and then pull them out to the central location?

Some of these questions I'll get answered when the one company, PSS Electronics, will do an on-site estimate.

But I want to understand as much as possible before hand, so that when they tell me something, I can respond accordingly.


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## Timothy Wright

Funny thing today I went and looked at 5 open house new construction homes $1.2m to $989k range and none of them were net zero or home automated, none had alarm systems or cameras. In fact when I asked I don't think they knew what I was talking about.


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## freeoscar

nuraman00 said:


> Yeah, right now I don't have any structured setup.
> 
> I just have one ethernet cable from my router to my desktop, and another one from my router to my Tivo. Both my desktop and my TV+ Tivo are near each other.
> 
> Those are the only hardwired connections I have.
> 
> So it wouldn't facilitate anything to have ethernet cables run behind walls, or to create a structured setup? It wouldn't be cleaner? For example, if I had a camera on the outside at each of the front, back, and sides of the house, it wouldn't be any cleaner to run them behind walls and then pull them out to the central location?
> 
> Some of these questions I'll get answered when the one company, PSS Electronics, will do an on-site estimate.
> 
> But I want to understand as much as possible before hand, so that when they tell me something, I can respond accordingly.


Yes, it would definitely be cleaner to run them behind the walls to a central location. I meant that once at that central location, you can connect them directly to the NVR. Some people will end each run of ethernet cable to a patch panel (like this one, for example http://www.leviton.com/en/products/476tm-654) and from there run a patch cable to the NVR (or in the case of ethernet, to a switch and/or router). In general it makes for a much more organized and easy to follow wiring configuration for your house, but if you only have the 4 or 6 or more camera cables, you can just connect those directly to the NVR.


----------



## MOTILAC

AErcen said:


> *Functionally, what are the pros of an IP camera vs. an analog camera?*
> 
> "The best analog surveillance camera still can't hold a candle to the worst IP camera when it comes to the resolution of the image it captures. At best, an analog camera can manage the equivalent of less than half a megapixel, whereas a Megapixel camera wouldn't be much good if it didn't produce an image of at least ONE of the things it's named after. Many of the Everfocus cameras we stock are available in 1.3, 2, or 3mp configurations, which is far better quality than you could hope to achieve with a traditional CCTV camera. Additionally, IP cameras capture a much wider field of view than comparable analog cameras, meaning a single IP camera is potentially able to do the job of three to four of the old school cams"
> "In a traditional analog DVR set-up, each camera must be connected directly to the DVR. IP cameras can circumvent this through the use of switches, which allow cameras in close proximity to each other to be connected to a single switch, which then runs a single wire to the NVR (Network Video Recorder). This reduces the amount of cabling runs, which makes it ultimately less labor intensive, and also allows you to connect more cameras because you're no longer limited by the number of ports on your DVR. On top of that, using a PoE (Power over Ethernet) switch allows your Cat 5e or Cat 6 cable to run the signal AND provide power to your camera, eliminating the need for a separate power supply"
> 
> *Both of these come with non IP cameras, right?
> https://www.costco.com/Q-See-8-Chann...100282096.html*
> 
> No. This is an analog system. It says so in their own ad.
> 
> *https://www.costco.com/Lorex-16-Chan...100308823.html*
> 
> No. This also is an analog system. It says so right on top of the ad
> 
> *But this next one comes with IP cameras?
> https://www.costco.com/Lorex-8-Chann...100341507.html*
> 
> Yes
> 
> 
> *What do you mean "ability to make up the camera"?*
> 
> It was a typo. I meant to say -ability to make up the CABLE ends.The cable that connects the camera and the NVR. Good luck doing that with the cables on analog cameras that use BNC connectors. With IP cameras you can buy a spool of CAT5 cable an run a single cable long distances and cut the cable crimp the ends without buying pre-made cables. The inexpensive CAT 5 cable would carry the DC voltage to power the cameras, as well as the video signal and audio where employed. NOT so with the expensive coaxial cable. You would still need DC voltage to power the cameras with another wire that piggy-backs the coaxial cable.
> 
> 
> *Why is installation of an IP camera easier? Is there something about connecting PoE cables that's easier than BNC cables?*
> 
> I think all those questions can be easily answered with a simple search or going to the link I provided. Like I said you can give those people or any other company that sells this stuff and ask THEM the same questions. Let whomever you decide to patronize answer those questions for you so there is an accountability on their part. Me and others giving you our own opinions don't have anything to gain or lose if we provided bad information.
> CAT cables are easier to work with. Single CHEAP cable is all you need between the camera and the NVR. Try pricing BNC connectors. Go to YouTube and look for "how to attach BNC connectors to coax cable", you will quickly learn the answer to your question why it is easier.
> 
> The packages sold at Home Depot, Costco, or Staples all come with a set length of cables, don't they? Are they long enough to place the cameras where you want them? What THEN? Have you done a site study that will help you determine how many cameras you will need or the proper coverage? The link I gave you will help you with it.
> 
> 
> *Did you mount everything yourself? If I wanted a professional installation for mounting the cameras, who or what service options are there?*
> Yes I mounted them where I wanted them. The cameras and the system I used are PLUG and PLAY. I didn't have to buy any software, or do any programming. I hooked everything up where I wanted. The cameras come with the hardware, connectors, screws needed including the weatherproof housing and connectors. Once I mounted them where I want them, I called Security camera warehouse and they did a remote connection to my Laptop and set everything up. 30 minutes on the phone I was up and running. I also installed the software for my IPad, iPhone and my Desktop PC. They did all the software installation remotely while I watched. NO CHARGE.
> If you don't want to climb ladders or crawl in attics running wires and installing cameras yourself, you can call ANY one of the Security companies in your town. They'll do it for you but they WILL charge plenty. With the company I went, there are no monthly fees, any contracts, or any monitoring. You do it all. You can monitor your cameras from anywhere in the world as long as you have a cell phone or a laptop or a computer.


Your point about analog cameras not being close to the worst IP camera isn't true....there are 4mp analog cameras available. IP is the way to go, but analog does provide great quality still.


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## Timothy Wright

I have some better resolution cameras when not long ago I doubled my camera count from (8) to (16) cameras but what I purchased needed to work with my existing system. I believe there is a general agreement for a new system with out legacy hardware on site, IP cameras are the way to go.

The bandwidth capacity on eight wire cat6 is much higher than that of 2 conductor coax cable that this is a no brainer. RG59 cameras will soon go the way of 8 track tapes and betamax.

Then there is the ease of working with cat6 vs RG59, and the cost of the wire to consider, and the reliability.

I am confident that just as the resolution on pocket cameras doubled every year for a decade the same will be true for IP CCTV cameras. Start off with cat6 in place now and 2-5 Mega pixel cameras and in five years the same wire runs may support 16-25 Mega pixel cameras.

There is a limit on the other end as well at the NVR, they have to be able to record to disk from several cameras simultaneously. My cameras only record on motion so at any given moment maybe half my cameras are working. If there is a weather event all my cameras may be working at the same time and so far that has not been a problem for me. As camera count increases and resolution improves one does need a superior (commercial and expensive) NVR to keep up.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> I have some better resolution cameras when not long ago I doubled my camera count from (8) to (16) cameras but what I purchased needed to work with my existing system. I believe there is a general agreement for a new system with out legacy hardware on site, IP cameras are the way to go.
> 
> The bandwidth capacity on eight wire cat6 is much higher than that of 2 conductor coax cable that this is a no brainer. RG59 cameras will soon go the way of 8 track tapes and betamax.
> 
> Then there is the ease of working with cat6 vs RG59, and the cost of the wire to consider, and the reliability.
> 
> I am confident that just as the resolution on pocket cameras doubled every year for a decade the same will be true for IP CCTV cameras. Start off with cat6 in place now and 2-5 Mega pixel cameras and in five years the same wire runs may support 16-25 Mega pixel cameras.
> 
> There is a limit on the other end as well at the NVR, they have to be able to record to disk from several cameras simultaneously. My cameras only record on motion so at any given moment maybe half my cameras are working. If there is a weather event all my cameras may be working at the same time and so far that has not been a problem for me. As camera count increases and resolution improves one does need a superior (commercial and expensive) NVR to keep up.


Somehow I didn't get any notifications of this thread after 8/21.

I had an installer come for a site evaluation on 8/25.

One thing he mentioned, when I asked about cat6, was that currently technology isn't close to the upper limits of cat 5. So he doesn't think we can get to the upper limits of cat6 anytime soon.

So he recommended staying with cat 5.

Thoughts?


----------



## nuraman00

A question about NVRs.

I want to use a 1080p as a display, as well as a new (not yet purchased) 4K monitor @ 4 MP.

I asked about using this NVR, which has 1 HDMI out. I asked if I can use a HDMI splitter and an HDMI extender.

http://www.dahuasecurity.com/en/us/pro_details.php?pid=6602

The installer said that you can't display two different resolutions that way.

He said you need this NVR with dual HDMI out to display at two different resolutions:

http://www.dahuasecurity.com/en/us/pro_details.php?pid=986

Is this true?

What would happen if I tried to view 4MP on my 1080p TV? I read that a Blu Ray player downscales it, for example. But I'm concerned with a NVR, not a Blu Ray player.


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## Timothy Wright

nuraman00> 

> One thing he mentioned, when I asked about cat6, was that currently technology isn't close to the upper limits of cat 5. So he doesn't think we can get to the upper limits of cat6 anytime soon.

> So he recommended staying with cat 5.

> Thoughts?

I want to think your installer is correct in what he said: "currently technology isn't close to the upper limits of cat 5".

All my cameras are BNC, not IP. However resolution doubles every few years, five years after installing 8 cameras I went back and installed 8 more at double the resolution. So for my home network I pulled all cat 6 because much of the cost is in the labor of pulling the wire not in the wire itself. My home network all runs at gigabit speeds and that makes a huge difference pulling movies off the server. 10 Gigabit speeds are here now. Five or ten years from now when I upgrade to better cameras do I want to pull wire all over again? Forgetting the time value of money, if the difference of money between Cat 5 and Cat 6 is less than $100 why not future proof? 

I'm 64 years old, many in my family live until they are in their mid 90's. I would not want to pull camera wire ever again. Yes in 30 years currently technology will be very different. Look at TVs, cars, cameras, and PC's 30 years ago. The cameras are a 5 year investment, the wiring is infrastructure intended to serve the life of the house. 

nuraman00> A question about NVRs.

My NVR connects to my home network via IP. I can view my cameras with IE browser on any PC, (even a laptop connected via wifi). I can't watch my cameras on any TV because TV browsers can not specify a port setting in the URL. MY desktop PC sports a 55" VIZEO 4k display that I purchased for only $500. 

Your installer is correct unless you do what I did, I use a browser to view cameras. In general the display resolution is limited to those supported by the NVR. 

MY PC has an app to config and maintain the NVR, Once cameras and NVR are set up I avoid using the app. One bad touch of the mouse I can screw up settings that I'd rather not touch. So I use a browser not the app to simply monitor cameras.

(enclosed screen shot at 4K)

Software is determined by the NVR brand and model. So select wisely. 

I spend a lot of time not in front of my TV but on a PC every day. I use IE for CCTV cameras but Chrome for everything else. When I open IE the 4x4 (16 camera) display is the home page. Nothing could be easier. Because it is a browser window I can change shape and size at will. I can choose to monitor 1,4,9 or 16 cameras. Watching 16 cameras in a browser is a load on the network but not so much on the CPU or GPU.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> nuraman00>
> 
> > One thing he mentioned, when I asked about cat6, was that currently technology isn't close to the upper limits of cat 5. So he doesn't think we can get to the upper limits of cat6 anytime soon.
> 
> > So he recommended staying with cat 5.
> 
> > Thoughts?
> 
> I want to think your installer is correct in what he said: "currently technology isn't close to the upper limits of cat 5".
> 
> All my cameras are BNC, not IP. However resolution doubles every few years, five years after installing 8 cameras I went back and installed 8 more at double the resolution. So for my home network I pulled all cat 6 because much of the cost is in the labor of pulling the wire not in the wire itself. My home network all runs at gigabit speeds and that makes a huge difference pulling movies off the server. 10 Gigabit speeds are here now. Five or ten years from now when I upgrade to better cameras do I want to pull wire all over again? Forgetting the time value of money, if the difference of money between Cat 5 and Cat 6 is less than $100 why not future proof?
> 
> I'm 64 years old, many in my family live until they are in their mid 90's. I would not want to pull camera wire ever again. Yes in 30 years currently technology will be very different. Look at TVs, cars, cameras, and PC's 30 years ago. The cameras are a 5 year investment, the wiring is infrastructure intended to serve the life of the house.
> 
> nuraman00> A question about NVRs.
> 
> My NVR connects to my home network via IP. I can view my cameras with IE browser on any PC, (even a laptop connected via wifi). I can't watch my cameras on any TV because TV browsers can not specify a port setting in the URL. MY desktop PC sports a 55" VIZEO 4k display that I purchased for only $500.
> 
> Your installer is correct unless you do what I did, I use a browser to view cameras. In general the display resolution is limited to those supported by the NVR.
> 
> MY PC has an app to config and maintain the NVR, Once cameras and NVR are set up I avoid using the app. One bad touch of the mouse I can screw up settings that I'd rather not touch. So I use a browser not the app to simply monitor cameras.
> 
> (enclosed screen shot at 4K)
> 
> Software is determined by the NVR brand and model. So select wisely.
> 
> I spend a lot of time not in front of my TV but on a PC every day. I use IE for CCTV cameras but Chrome for everything else. When I open IE the 4x4 (16 camera) display is the home page. Nothing could be easier. Because it is a browser window I can change shape and size at will. I can choose to monitor 1,4,9 or 16 cameras. Watching 16 cameras in a browser is a load on the network but not so much on the CPU or GPU.


Thanks for the screen shot and for the reply.

My desktop monitor is 1680 x 1050, so it's less than my TV. Hence why I prefer my TV as one of the two viewing monitors.

So are you saying that with the dual HDMI out, you can tell the NVR to output HDMI 1 at one resolution, and HDMI 2 at another resolution?

And that's why using a splitter and then HDMI extender doesn't work, because the NVR will output the resolution through the HDMI at only one resolution?

I will suggest cat 6 then.

The installer also told me that other company installers might not use burial rated cat cables, and that they might go bad in 3-5 years. So to watch out for that.

The installer that came over for the evaluation told me right when he came over that his installation is expensive, which is why he doesn't do too many residential areas. But he seems to have a lot of knowledge about these things, especially with the dual HDMI out NVR.

He estimated 35 hours of labor for the installation (but he warned me during the meeting that he estimated about 3 days of labor). 

I'm seeing what an estimate would be like with another installer who also uses Dahau parts, and how I like working with them after an initial estimate a few weeks ago. I'm seeing how they respond to my followups and how much I trust them too.


----------



## nuraman00

This has been on the back of my mind.

If I move, how easy would it be to uninstall everything?

If I needed help installing it (as I don't have a ladder, and don't think I could do a good job with wiring, or going through the attic, etc.), would I also need help uninstalling everything?


----------



## Timothy Wright

nuraman00 > If I move, how easy would it be to uninstall everything?

Are you living in a rental?

Generally anything permanently attached stays with the house. So for example curtains go but curtains rods stay.

Using that logic cameras and wiring stay, you could take the NVR but why would you? You got paid for the house including the CCTV system. 

Why would you remove wiring or cameras from a house? Why not take the copper plumbing too?


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> nuraman00 > If I move, how easy would it be to uninstall everything?
> 
> Are you living in a rental?
> 
> Generally anything permanently attached stays with the house. So for example curtains go but curtains rods stay.
> 
> Using that logic cameras and wiring stay, you could take the NVR but why would you? You got paid for the house including the CCTV system.
> 
> Why would you remove wiring or cameras from a house? Why not take the copper plumbing too?


No, I'm not living in a rental.

Thanks.

I was just wondering if I'd have to do all of this over again if I moved. It sounds like I'd have to install a CCTV system at the new residence too.

I was also just thinking maybe it's possible to remove the cameras but keep the wiring.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> nuraman00>
> 
> > One thing he mentioned, when I asked about cat6, was that currently technology isn't close to the upper limits of cat 5. So he doesn't think we can get to the upper limits of cat6 anytime soon.
> 
> > So he recommended staying with cat 5.
> 
> > Thoughts?
> 
> I want to think your installer is correct in what he said: "currently technology isn't close to the upper limits of cat 5".
> 
> All my cameras are BNC, not IP. However resolution doubles every few years, five years after installing 8 cameras I went back and installed 8 more at double the resolution. So for my home network I pulled all cat 6 because much of the cost is in the labor of pulling the wire not in the wire itself. My home network all runs at gigabit speeds and that makes a huge difference pulling movies off the server. 10 Gigabit speeds are here now. Five or ten years from now when I upgrade to better cameras do I want to pull wire all over again? Forgetting the time value of money, if the difference of money between Cat 5 and Cat 6 is less than $100 why not future proof?
> 
> I'm 64 years old, many in my family live until they are in their mid 90's. I would not want to pull camera wire ever again. Yes in 30 years currently technology will be very different. Look at TVs, cars, cameras, and PC's 30 years ago. The cameras are a 5 year investment, the wiring is infrastructure intended to serve the life of the house.
> 
> nuraman00> A question about NVRs.
> 
> My NVR connects to my home network via IP. I can view my cameras with IE browser on any PC, (even a laptop connected via wifi). I can't watch my cameras on any TV because TV browsers can not specify a port setting in the URL. MY desktop PC sports a 55" VIZEO 4k display that I purchased for only $500.
> 
> Your installer is correct unless you do what I did, I use a browser to view cameras. In general the display resolution is limited to those supported by the NVR.
> 
> MY PC has an app to config and maintain the NVR, Once cameras and NVR are set up I avoid using the app. One bad touch of the mouse I can screw up settings that I'd rather not touch. So I use a browser not the app to simply monitor cameras.
> 
> (enclosed screen shot at 4K)
> 
> Software is determined by the NVR brand and model. So select wisely.
> 
> I spend a lot of time not in front of my TV but on a PC every day. I use IE for CCTV cameras but Chrome for everything else. When I open IE the 4x4 (16 camera) display is the home page. Nothing could be easier. Because it is a browser window I can change shape and size at will. I can choose to monitor 1,4,9 or 16 cameras. Watching 16 cameras in a browser is a load on the network but not so much on the CPU or GPU.


Just asking a question here.

Is it safe for @Timothy Wright to post pictures of what his camera is capturing? I know he didn't give out his address. 

But just wondering what others think. Especially since we're on a security thread.

I did like the pictures, because it gave another example of what a reason person would do.


----------



## nuraman00

nuraman00 said:


> Thanks for the screen shot and for the reply.
> 
> My desktop monitor is 1680 x 1050, so it's less than my TV. Hence why I prefer my TV as one of the two viewing monitors.
> 
> *So are you saying that with the dual HDMI out, you can tell the NVR to output HDMI 1 at one resolution, and HDMI 2 at another resolution?
> 
> And that's why using a splitter and then HDMI extender doesn't work, because the NVR will output the resolution through the HDMI at only one resolution?*
> 
> I will suggest cat 6 then.
> 
> The installer also told me that other company installers might not use burial rated cat cables, and that they might go bad in 3-5 years. So to watch out for that.
> 
> The installer that came over for the evaluation told me right when he came over that his installation is expensive, which is why he doesn't do too many residential areas. But he seems to have a lot of knowledge about these things, especially with the dual HDMI out NVR.
> 
> He estimated 35 hours of labor for the installation (but he warned me during the meeting that he estimated about 3 days of labor).
> 
> I'm seeing what an estimate would be like with another installer who also uses Dahau parts, and how I like working with them after an initial estimate a few weeks ago. I'm seeing how they respond to my followups and how much I trust them too.


Bump, @Timothy Wright. Can you help with this follow up question?

So is it a setting on the NVR, to tell it at what resolution to output to each NVR?


----------



## Timothy Wright

Your cameras and NVR limit your recorded resolution. That would be true even if you never watch the output. Should you download a mp4 file for court use on to a thumb drive the file resolution will be limited by the camera and NVR. If your camera resolution is higher than the resolution of your TV or monitor you may or may not get any image on your display. Because my monitor is double the resolution of any of my cameras and I use a browser (IE) my camera images are scaled.

> Is it safe for @Timothy Wright to post pictures of what his camera is capturing? I know he didn't give out his address. 

You make me sorry I tried to help. The fact that have 16 over lapping cameras, a male rottweiler, an alarm system and a bad temper is already well known among the local gentry of my neighborhood. It is a few of many reasons why I feel pretty safe. 

> I was just wondering if I'd have to do all of this over again if I moved. It sounds like I'd have to install a CCTV system at the new residence too.

Yes, the cameras are attached, unless yours are just laying there.

Why do all this to a house you are selling?


----------



## freeoscar

The default is that things which are fixtures are included in the sale, but you can always write exceptions into the contract - people frequently do that for chandeliers and other expensive light fixtures. I'm not sure where cameras would fall - true they are attached to the wall and attached to wire, but I'm quite sure that my TV which is mounted on the wall and attached to HDMI and Cat 6 cabling isn't assumed to be included in a sale - but perhaps I'm wrong. At any rate, you would just write exclusions for those things you want to take with you - your real estate lawyer and agent can help with that when the time comes.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> Your cameras and NVR limit your recorded resolution. That would be true even if you never watch the output. Should you download a mp4 file for court use on to a thumb drive the file resolution will be limited by the camera and NVR. If your camera resolution is higher than the resolution of your TV or monitor you may or may not get any image on your display. Because my monitor is double the resolution of any of my cameras and I use a browser (IE) my camera images are scaled.
> 
> > Is it safe for @*Timothy Wright* to post pictures of what his camera is capturing? I know he didn't give out his address.
> 
> You make me sorry I tried to help. The fact that have 16 over lapping cameras, a male rottweiler, an alarm system and a bad temper is already well known among the local gentry of my neighborhood. It is a few of many reasons why I feel pretty safe.
> 
> > I was just wondering if I'd have to do all of this over again if I moved. It sounds like I'd have to install a CCTV system at the new residence too.
> 
> Yes, the cameras are attached, unless yours are just laying there.
> 
> Why do all this to a house you are selling?



Thanks again for all the answers.

There was a home invasion attempt last month, so I want to get a CCTV system so I feel more secure.

I don't have any plans to sell the house right now. But something could change in a few years. I also don't technically own the house, I'm renting from my parents (who live elsewhere). They are aware of my plans to get a camera system, and agree it's the right thing to do after what happened.

I guess I'm still wondering why if I record at 4 MP, and then use a HDMI splitter, why can't each viewing device scale the resolution itself? So why can't the 1080p TV scale it as necessary, and then the not-yet-purchased 4K monitor display it at 4 MP?

Or is there some setting on these dual HDMI NVRs that allow each port to output a different resolution?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...i_nvr54a16_16p_4ks2_16_channel_nvr_4sata.html

I will also try contacting Dahau for answers, but this is one of those things where I want as many opinions / explanations as possible for confirmation.


----------



## nuraman00

freeoscar said:


> The default is that things which are fixtures are included in the sale, but you can always write exceptions into the contract - people frequently do that for chandeliers and other expensive light fixtures. I'm not sure where cameras would fall - true they are attached to the wall and attached to wire, but I'm quite sure that my TV which is mounted on the wall and attached to HDMI and Cat 6 cabling isn't assumed to be included in a sale - but perhaps I'm wrong. *At any rate, you would just write exclusions for those things you want to take with you - your real estate lawyer and agent can help with that when the time comes.*


Thanks.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> You make me sorry I tried to help. The fact that have 16 over lapping cameras, a male rottweiler, an alarm system and a bad temper is already well known among the local gentry of my neighborhood. It is a few of many reasons why I feel pretty safe.



Going off topic.

What made you choose a rottweiler? Was it because you like those dogs; or for security purposes; or both, or other?

What type of dogs did you have before?


----------



## Timothy Wright

> What made you choose a rottweiler? 

I was looking for a puppy, I found one on pet finder. He was 10 weeks old, an Ohio farm dog, fawn colored, smooth coated with a racing strip, chest blaze and socks. He had a sweet face and huge paws. Turns out after doing the DNA Christopher is 3/8 rottweiler, 1/4 Husky, and then a grocery list of other breeds none more than a 1/8 of anything. A week or so after adopting Christopher my endocrinologist suggested that I may benefit from an alert dog. So I took to training Christopher. I might tell 1,000 stories about Christopher but in short he is not only the best dog I've ever owned but the most remarkable dog most people have ever met. Rotties are very smart, loyal, devoted and good natured with proper training. I often joke that he is having an affair with my mail lady. They really get along great together. Christopher is now 10.5 years old, very old for a dog his size. My heart is on alert knowing that while in may ways these are the best of our years together I know our time together is very limited.

> I guess I'm still wondering why if I record at 4 MP, and then use a HDMI splitter, 

When you watch a live feed it is not any form of file, it is a live feed, it is raw signal. 

Now after it has been recorded a TV can upscale but not down scale, so you could watch 720 feed on a 1080 TV but not the other way around. 

Again using a browser avoids many of these issues because it auto scales so on a PC one types in the URL and Port and up pops the live feed.

The problem is on most TVs one can type in the url in the built in browser but the built in browser does not support "ports". That is why the only way to watch live feeds on your TV is the way the installer is recommending. 

> What type of dogs did you have before?

Gatsby was a collie mix, he lived 15 years. Bismarck was an English yellow lab mix who also lived 15 years old. Both were excellent companions. Christopher in contrast is exceedingly well trained and works for a living. He goes every where with me, is highly social and very well received everywhere we go. He is not a guard dog but a watch dog at home. An aggressive dog can never be a service dog.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> > What made you choose a rottweiler?
> 
> I was looking for a puppy, I found one on pet finder. He was 10 weeks old, an Ohio farm dog, fawn colored, smooth coated with a racing strip, chest blaze and socks. He had a sweet face and huge paws. Turns out after doing the DNA Christopher is 3/8 rottweiler, 1/4 Husky, and then a grocery list of other breeds none more than a 1/8 of anything. A week or so after adopting Christopher my endocrinologist suggested that I may benefit from an alert dog. So I took to training Christopher. I might tell 1,000 stories about Christopher but in short he is not only the best dog I've ever owned but the most remarkable dog most people have ever met. Rotties are very smart, loyal, devoted and good natured with proper training. I often joke that he is having an affair with my mail lady. They really get along great together. Christopher is now 10.5 years old, very old for a dog his size. My heart is on alert knowing that while in may ways these are the best of our years together I know our time together is very limited.
> 
> > I guess I'm still wondering why if I record at 4 MP, and then use a HDMI splitter,
> 
> When you watch a live feed it is not any form of file, it is a live feed, it is raw signal.
> 
> Now after it has been recorded a TV can upscale but not down scale, so you could watch 720 feed on a 1080 TV but not the other way around.
> 
> Again using a browser avoids many of these issues because it auto scales so on a PC one types in the URL and Port and up pops the live feed.
> 
> The problem is on most TVs one can type in the url in the built in browser but the built in browser does not support "ports". That is why the only way to watch live feeds on your TV is the way the installer is recommending.
> 
> > What type of dogs did you have before?
> 
> Gatsby was a collie mix, he lived 15 years. Bismarck was an English yellow lab mix who also lived 15 years old. Both were excellent companions. Christopher in contrast is exceedingly well trained and works for a living. He goes every where with me, is highly social and very well received everywhere we go. He is not a guard dog but a watch dog at home. An aggressive dog can never be a service dog.


Thanks for sharing. Both pics are of Christopher, right?

So I contacted Steve from Dahau. He suggested having a network decoder next to each monitor.

http://www.dahuasecurity.com/en/us/pro_details.php?pid=1584

The network decoder costs $957, I don't want to add more hardware if I don't have to.

When I asked about using the NVR model with the dual HDMI, he said "most likely yes".

Ok, so you're saying that I can watch a live feed on the 1080p TV. But once it's been recorded, if I was watching a recording from an earlier time, I wouldn't be able to watch it on the 1080p TV? Because it can't downscale from 4 MP to 1080p?

I do have a desktop which is also connected to the TV via HDMI. But my desktop's monitor is 1680 x 1050. So even if I were viewing my desktop browser through my PC, it would be viewing it at the desktop monitor's resolution, and not the 1080p TV resolution, right?

My TV doesn't have a built in browser anyways. So that's why I use the HDMI from the desktop to the TV when I'm streaming sports or movies from the PC and I want to watch it on the TV.

As I said earlier, this is one of those things I'm asking multiple people so I can get as much confirmation, or as much discussion, as possible. I'm trying not to rely on one person as the single source of truth. Because I want my setup to work as best as possible.


----------



## Timothy Wright

Thanks for sharing. Both pics are of Christopher, right?


** Correct - A few weeks ago Christopher crept up on a yearling buck hiding in the tall grass. Christopher has always known how to deactivate the predator body language. He had the deer so calm they were doing the nose to nose greeting. Christopher knows not to fight, he has learned that is my job. 


So I contacted Steve from Dahau. He suggested having a network decoder next to each monitor.

http://www.dahuasecurity.com/en/us/p...s.php?pid=1584

The network decoder costs $957, I don't want to add more hardware if I don't have to.

When I asked about using the NVR model with the dual HDMI, he said "most likely yes".


** I have no first hand experience with any of those. I purchased my 4k 55" Vizio TV-Display at costco for $500. It has neither speakers nor tuner. It works great for me as a PC display. 


Ok, so you're saying that I can watch a live feed on the 1080p TV. 

**no - you will get a "format not supported" error message if the live feed is 3840 x 2160 **

But once it's been recorded, if I was watching a recording from an earlier time, I wouldn't be able to watch it on the 1080p TV? Because it can't downscale from 4 MP to 1080p?


** That is the way I would understand your situation. I think you are use 4 MP (4 mega pixel?, for my word 4k display 3840 x 2160 resolution) When I try that on my 1080 TV I simply get a message "format not supported." One could use a PC which is what I do, or use a i phone or a tablet or a notebook or a laptop over wifi if you have wifi in your house. For $957 I'd get a new i phone. I could watch cameras from anywhere in the house. 


I do have a desktop which is also connected to the TV via HDMI. But my desktop's monitor is 1680 x 1050. So even if I were viewing my desktop browser through my PC, it would be viewing it at the desktop monitor's resolution, and not the 1080p TV resolution, right?


** Correct - In my experience a browser will re scale, but a TV will only up scale, never down scale, I watch 4 x 4 (16 cameras) 1080 cameras in IE on my 4k display attached to my PC. 


My TV doesn't have a built in browser anyways. So that's why I use the HDMI from the desktop to the TV when I'm streaming sports or movies from the PC and I want to watch it on the TV.



** but you could get a laptop or notebook wifi into the network and HDMI from the notebook to the TV and not spend $1,000 for an adapter, and check your email at the same time and shop on Amazon in between threats to your safety. All my TV's are flat screen Samsung 1080p and feature built in browsers. I can type in a URL address but not the following port address (on my TVs) so I have given up using the TVs to watch my cameras. If I needed to do that I would buy a notebook or laptop, use the browser on the notebook and connect to the TV via HDMI. Look at ASUS laptops/notebooks on amazon. You can buy a older ROG model for ~ $1,000? A ROG model will have the graphics card helpful for rescaling camera resolution to display resolution with little effort. Fair notice using a wifi connection will have more time delay than a direct wire live feed. Perhaps even a second or two. 

** RE Home invasions - With in hours of buying my home I had an expert locksmith replacing all my external locks on every door with commercial lock sets fitted with limited distribution key sets and adding commercial quality dead bolts. That means the HD locks and striker plates are very HD and the only way to kick in a door is to destroy the whole door and door frame. One can not get a key made for my home unless they go to a locksmith and their name is on the list of names I have approved. Only locksmiths can get the blank keys . You can do all that and make a home invasion much more difficult. That's not home automation but it is "home security 101". 

** When a good locksmith installs good door locks they use 10" or 12" wood screws not 1.5" or 2" wood screws. That makes the lock part of the door and the striker plate part of the door frame. Ain't nobody gonna shoulder or kick in my door. Any door can be forced. To force my door one will need to destroy the whole door and door frame. I'd get a good locksmith first (let him install your locks, do not do it your self, tell him what you want) and spend $200 on locks before I'd spent $12,000 on a CCTV camera system. It will not stop a SWAT team but it it will stop most tourists cold in their tracks. 


As I said earlier, this is one of those things I'm asking multiple people so I can get as much confirmation, or as much discussion, as possible. I'm trying not to rely on one person as the single source of truth. Because I want my setup to work as best as possible.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> Thanks for sharing. Both pics are of Christopher, right?
> 
> 
> ** Correct - A few weeks ago Christopher crept up on a yearling buck hiding in the tall grass. Christopher has always known how to deactivate the predator body language. He had the deer so calm they were doing the nose to nose greeting. Christopher knows not to fight, he has learned that is my job.


That's a great story with Christopher and the deer. Thanks for sharing. Did you take a pic?



Timothy Wright said:


> Ok, so you're saying that I can watch a live feed on the 1080p TV.
> 
> **no - you will get a "format not supported" error message if the live feed is 3840 x 2160 **
> 
> But once it's been recorded, if I was watching a recording from an earlier time, I wouldn't be able to watch it on the 1080p TV? Because it can't downscale from 4 MP to 1080p?
> 
> 
> ** That is the way I would understand your situation. I think you are use 4 MP (4 mega pixel?, for my word 4k display 3840 x 2160 resolution) When I try that on my 1080 TV I simply get a message "format not supported." One could use a PC which is what I do, or use a i phone or a tablet or a notebook or a laptop over wifi if you have wifi in your house. For $957 I'd get a new i phone. I could watch cameras from anywhere in the house.
> 
> *I do have a desktop which is also connected to the TV via HDMI. But my desktop's monitor is 1680 x 1050. So even if I were viewing my desktop browser through my PC, it would be viewing it at the desktop monitor's resolution, and not the 1080p TV resolution, right?*
> 
> 
> ** Correct - In my experience a browser will re scale, but a TV will only up scale, never down scale, I watch 4 x 4 (16 cameras) 1080 cameras in IE on my 4k display attached to my PC.


I had a typo in my post where I bolded it.

I meant to ask, if I am viewing my desktop browser from my PC to my TV via HDMI, will it use the TV's 1080p resolution?

And yes, when I say 4 MP, I mean 4 Mega pixel, since that's what the max camera resolution is at. So 2240x1680. 

I'll confirm this with Steve from Dahau, but if he also says I can't view live directly from the NVR to the TV, then I'll remote view from the PC to the TV, and only get the 1 HDMI NVR model, which will be connected to the 4K display upstairs (not yet purchased) using the HDMI extender.

Right now, I want to keep the NVR downstairs. But maybe once the installer is inside the house, we can examine how I feel about keeping the NVR upstairs, and if I like that setup. Especially if I can only use the upstairs monitor for live viewing.




Timothy Wright said:


> ** RE Home invasions - With in hours of buying my home I had an expert locksmith replacing all my external locks on every door with commercial lock sets fitted with limited distribution key sets and adding commercial quality dead bolts. That means the HD locks and striker plates are very HD and the only way to kick in a door is to destroy the whole door and door frame. One can not get a key made for my home unless they go to a locksmith and their name is on the list of names I have approved. Only locksmiths can get the blank keys . You can do all that and make a home invasion much more difficult. That's not home automation but it is "home security 101".
> 
> ** When a good locksmith installs good door locks they use 10" or 12" wood screws not 1.5" or 2" wood screws. That makes the lock part of the door and the striker plate part of the door frame. Ain't nobody gonna shoulder or kick in my door. Any door can be forced. To force my door one will need to destroy the whole door and door frame. I'd get a good locksmith first (let him install your locks, do not do it your self, tell him what you want) and spend $200 on locks before I'd spent $12,000 on a CCTV camera system. It will not stop a SWAT team but it it will stop most tourists cold in their tracks.


These are good tips. Thanks.

The intruders broke a window (back yard). Luckily it was double-paned and they only got through the outside pane when I heard the loud noise (window breaking) and my alarm had also gone off.


----------



## torii

a pro install of a basic 2 camera system hardwired w/backup gonna run at least around 1 grand...more cameras more money...just get better insurance policy. i actually like the little battery operated wireless cameras which I can turn on if I go away for weekend or on vacation. batteries last 30 days and i can see everything on the cloud or via phone.

https://www.amazon.com/Arlo-Pro-Sec...05335194&sr=8-2&keywords=wireless+camera+arlo

downside...my outdoor cams, birds set them off..or maybe thats good. if placed outdorrs maybe get stolen??? mine placed up high...changing batteries or recharging can be a pain/added cost. if I am home dont use...like i said only used if out of town.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> nuraman00>
> 
> 
> (enclosed screen shot at 4K)
> 
> Software is determined by the NVR brand and model. So select wisely.
> 
> I spend a lot of time not in front of my TV but on a PC every day. I use IE for CCTV cameras but Chrome for everything else. When I open IE the 4x4 (16 camera) display is the home page. Nothing could be easier. Because it is a browser window I can change shape and size at will. I can choose to monitor 1,4,9 or 16 cameras. Watching 16 cameras in a browser is a load on the network but not so much on the CPU or GPU.


How do you feel about cameras inside? I see you have several, including one in the garage (if one wants to consider that "inside").

A few weeks ago, I was thinking of putting two cameras inside, where I currently have motion detectors as a part of my alarm system.

But out of all of the site evaluations, the one installer that came on-site suggested instead just to have great overlapping coverage outdoors rather than a little less outdoors + 2 indoors. (With a 5-8 camera purchase, as opposed to a greater amount).

He suggested that the increased overlapping coverage outdoors would be more beneficial.

He also said that people sometimes act funny or are self conscious if they know they're being recorded.

He said if I wanted to, I could later expand and keep indoor cameras when going on long vacations.

To me, that made sense. If I'm starting out with 8 cameras, and given the areas he showed where he'd place them, I could get better coverage outdoors.

If I wanted to expand in the future, I could add 2 where the motion sensors are, indoors.


----------



## nuraman00

Does anyone have any recommendations on a wall mountable 4K monitor? I think a 21 or 22" is fine. Probably a max of 41 or 42".


----------



## Timothy Wright

> How do you feel about cameras inside?

Confrontations frequently come down to two sides of the same story. Cameras never lie. One camera shows my front door in profile view, another shows my tool box and another both garage doors. Another camera is in the hallway one must traverse between two halves of the house. 

In NM, in the small town where I lived, a woman called the police when she discovered a man in her house. The police found him hiding behind her shower curtain. The burglar/rapist offered: "Can't a guy take a leak in peace?"

Generally when one has a crime documented on video the other side pleads no-contest or starts looking for a plea bargain. 

I have no cameras in any bed room or bathroom where anyone would have a reasonable expectation of privacy. 

I had 8 cameras total, 7 outside, one inside. When I needed more cameras more than 16 would be overkill. So when I added 8 more cameras 5 were external, 3 were internal. I put an immense amount of thought into camera placement and I have zero regrets. 

My system has no microphones, I record no audio. In PA it is illegal to record someone's voice without their consent. A microphone or recording device in plain sight is considered implied consent In the state of PA. If I thought it helpful I'd have a microphone in plane view at my front door. Recording audio is covered under "wire-taping" statutes and laws vary greatly from state to state. 

Recording video is subject to different laws, generally you have no reasonable expectation to privacy in public. You do have a reasonable expectation of privacy in a bathroom or bedroom, even someone else's as long as you arrived their by legal means. 

You write that you are worried about home invasion? If the folks get arrested or leave you for dead no doubt they will have an excuse why and how you knew them and owed them money or some other excuse. 

Confrontations frequently come down to two sides of the same story. Cameras never lie.

Judges and juries pull back when there are two credible sides to a story. In contrast when the episode is on tape the perpetrators get zero sympathy and they get the maximum sentence.

I know someone who's house was robbed of maybe $100,000 in jewelry. They think it was a house keeper who had a key. If they had her (housekeeper) on video emptying the jewelry box the woman would never get out of jail.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> > How do you feel about cameras inside?
> 
> Confrontations frequently come down to two sides of the same story. Cameras never lie. One camera shows my front door in profile view, another shows my tool box and another both garage doors. Another camera is in the hallway one must traverse between two halves of the house.
> 
> In NM, in the small town where I lived, a woman called the police when she discovered a man in her house. The police found him hiding behind her shower curtain. The burglar/rapist offered: "Can't a guy take a leak in peace?"
> 
> Generally when one has a crime documented on video the other side pleads no-contest or starts looking for a plea bargain.
> 
> I have no cameras in any bed room or bathroom where anyone would have a reasonable expectation of privacy.
> 
> I had 8 cameras total, 7 outside, one inside. When I needed more cameras more than 16 would be overkill. So when I added 8 more cameras 5 were external, 3 were internal. I put an immense amount of thought into camera placement and I have zero regrets.
> 
> My system has no microphones, I record no audio. In PA it is illegal to record someone's voice without their consent. A microphone or recording device in plain sight is considered implied consent In the state of PA. If I thought it helpful I'd have a microphone in plane view at my front door. Recording audio is covered under "wire-taping" statutes and laws vary greatly from state to state.
> 
> Recording video is subject to different laws, generally you have no reasonable expectation to privacy in public. You do have a reasonable expectation of privacy in a bathroom or bedroom, even someone else's as long as you arrived their by legal means.
> 
> You write that you are worried about home invasion? If the folks get arrested or leave you for dead no doubt they will have an excuse why and how you knew them and owed them money or some other excuse.
> 
> Confrontations frequently come down to two sides of the same story. Cameras never lie.
> 
> Judges and juries pull back when there are two credible sides to a story. In contrast when the episode is on tape the perpetrators get zero sympathy and they get the maximum sentence.
> 
> I know someone who's house was robbed of maybe $100,000 in jewelry. They think it was a house keeper who had a key. If they had her (housekeeper) on video emptying the jewelry box the woman would never get out of jail.


Thanks for sharing all of this.

That is scary about that intruder hiding behind the shower curtain.



Timothy Wright said:


> You write that you are worried about home invasion? If the folks get arrested or leave you for dead no doubt they will have an excuse why and how you knew them and owed them money or some other excuse.


I don't know if "worried" is the right word. But it happened on 7/31, and that's what prompted me to start looking into a camera security system. So that if something happened another time, I'd have some footage.


----------



## Timothy Wright

> That is scary about that intruder hiding behind the shower curtain.

And on the 8th day John Browning created the model 70 1911 colt in 45 ACP.


----------



## nuraman00

nuraman00 said:


> Does anyone have any recommendations on a wall mountable 4K monitor? I think a 21 or 22" is fine. Probably a max of 41 or 42".


What do you think about this monitor:

https://www.amazon.com/LG-24UD58-B-...=UTF8&qid=1505535132&sr=8-1&keywords=24UD58-B

And this wall mount?

https://www.amazon.com/VideoSecu-ML...id=1505534723&sr=1-3&keywords=vesa+wall+mount

I've not been a fan of LG before, but it seems to meet the requirements of it being a 4K monitor with VESA mounting.


----------



## nuraman00

What do you think about this. If I get a TV with built in Wi Fi, what if I were to use that TV's web interface to view the cameras? Would I still be viewing it at 4K?


If so, would that be better/easier than using a HDMI extender from the NVR?


If so, I could perhaps get the NVR model with 1 HDMI. Connect that to my 1080p TV downstairs. 



Then use the new 4K TV's web interface upstairs to view it at 4K. 



Do you think there would be any issues with lag or something?


----------



## Timothy Wright

> What do you think about this. If I get a TV...

As I said above, my software on my PC requires both a ULR and a port designation. My Samsung TVs are unable to port designate, Maybe your TV will be able to. One or two HD may work over WIFI, I know my 16 medium rez cameras will keep my Gbit Ethernet network rather busy. I am a big fan of hard wire for bandwidth and reliability.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> > What do you think about this. If I get a TV...
> 
> As I said above, my software on my PC requires both a ULR and a port designation. My Samsung TVs are unable to port designate, Maybe your TV will be able to. One or two HD may work over WIFI, I know my 16 medium rez cameras will keep my Gbit Ethernet network rather busy. I am a big fan of hard wire for bandwidth and reliability.


Thanks, good point. Since this TV is to only be used for monitoring, I wouldn't want it to use Wi Fi bandwidth 24/7. HDMI bandwidth would be better (although even that would be using the HDMI extender which has a transmitter and receiver, so not 100% hardwired).

I think you also mentioned the port problem earlier. I just forgot, since there's different aspects of this that I've been thinking about.

Thanks for bringing it up again.


----------



## nuraman00

Just an update on this.

I had contacted many installers in August and September. But had decided to use an installer that supplied Dahau cameras and NVRs.

I had one quote from a Dahau installer. He stated his labor charges were high, and they were.

I had another quote from another installer in early September. At the time, it was for 5 cameras.

After further discussion and an onsite visit on September 24th, we decided on 8 cameras.

I had been waiting for a revised estimate since then. He kept saying he was busy but would get to me.


Yesterday, he told me that he no longer orders Dahau parts. 



He said my options were to use his supplier, LTS. Or for me to buy by own parts and he would only do the install.


After doing this much research on Dahau cameras and NVRs, I'd prefer to stick with them. And it would help to have an installer that fully supported them, so I could have a single point of support and contact.


Especially since I'm looking for a NVR with 2 HDMI output ports because they will be going to two monitors at different resolutions. I don't know if that is a common feature across other brands.


----------



## coug7669

nuraman00 said:


> Just an update on this.
> 
> I had contacted many installers in August and September. But had decided to use an installer that supplied Dahau cameras and NVRs.
> 
> I had one quote from a Dahau installer. He stated his labor charges were high, and they were.
> 
> I had another quote from another installer in early September. At the time, it was for 5 cameras.
> 
> After further discussion and an onsite visit on September 24th, we decided on 8 cameras.
> 
> I had been waiting for a revised estimate since then. He kept saying he was busy but would get to me.
> 
> 
> Yesterday, he told me that he no longer orders Dahau parts.
> 
> 
> 
> He said my options were to use his supplier, LTS. Or for me to buy by own parts and he would only do the install.
> 
> 
> After doing this much research on Dahau cameras and NVRs, I'd prefer to stick with them. And it would help to have an installer that fully supported them, so I could have a single point of support and contact.
> 
> 
> Especially since I'm looking for a NVR with 2 HDMI output ports because they will be going to two monitors at different resolutions. I don't know if that is a common feature across other brands.


Just to let you know Dahau cameras and NVRs as well as Hikvision cameras and NVR's are hacked. All hardware has an updated firmware that the enduser must apply. I would see if your source is familiar with the backdoor issue and whether you will be the one to update both the cameras and nvr's firmware.


----------



## nuraman00

coug7669 said:


> Just to let you know Dahau cameras and NVRs as well as Hikvision cameras and NVR's are hacked. All hardware has an updated firmware that the enduser must apply. I would see if your source is familiar with the backdoor issue and whether you will be the one to update both the cameras and nvr's firmware.


How are they hacked or how can they be hacked?

Thanks for also mentioning Hikvision, since one other installer uses their products.

And you're saying that after the initial configuration, for security reasons, I should download the latest firmware for all products to patch this security issue?

Is there a link describing the security issue you're talking about?


----------



## eatenbacktolife

Unless something has changed, LTS is rebranded Hikvision. If that installer gave you the warm and fuzzies, there's nothing wrong with LTS stuff. They also have physical locations all over the place.

You ever look at doing your own NVR with blue iris or similar product?


----------



## nuraman00

eatenbacktolife said:


> Unless something has changed, LTS is rebranded Hikvision. If that installer gave you the warm and fuzzies, there's nothing wrong with LTS stuff. They also have physical locations all over the place.
> 
> You ever look at doing your own* NVR with blue iris *or similar product?


I just learned about it after reading your post.

I then read this thread:

https://ipcamtalk.com/threads/advantages-of-a-nvr-vs-blue-iris-and-a-pc.7405/

I have a desktop PC which I use, but I don't want to dedicate it to running a blue iris system. If I had a spare desktop then I'd consider this.

How do you know LTS is rebranded Hikvision? But it sounds like you think Hikvision is ok.

Thanks.

Reading that thread about blue iris reminded me of one more thing.

Should I go with 4 MP, or would 2 MP be better for night vision? If 2MP (1080p), then I suppose I only need a single HDMI NVR since I wouldn't be outputting 2 different resolutions to 2 different monitors. If 4 MP, then one of the outputs would need to be to a 1080p monitor, one to a 4K monitor.

I am planning on 6 varifocal dome cameras for outdoors, and 2 varifocal eyeball cameras for outdoors.

Maybe I'd add one more to the garage. I liked @Timothy Wright's garage camera in *post #44* of 73 .

But the side entrance to the garage also has 3 locks on it. I'd have to have left them unlocked; the garage door open; or the intruders would have to break inside the house first.


----------



## nuraman00

A dome camera is probably best in the garage, right?


----------



## nuraman00

coug7669 said:


> Just to let you know Dahau cameras and NVRs as well as Hikvision cameras and NVR's are hacked. All hardware has an updated firmware that the enduser must apply. I would see if your source is familiar with the backdoor issue and whether you will be the one to update both the cameras and nvr's firmware.


I still don't understand the difference between Hikvision, and Hikvision OEM, as stated in this link. What does it mean to be a Hikvision OEM brand, vs. non OEM brand?


It it kind of like how for cars, Infiniti uses Nissan parts?



https://www.a1securitycameras.com/blog/how-to-solve-hikvision-lts-and-oculur-backdoor-vulnerability/


----------



## nuraman00

In the past 6 months, I've used anywhere from 10 G a month in bandwidth, to 84 G a month.


How much bandwidth will 8 cameras recording 24/7 at 15fps, H.265 compression, and let's say worst case 4 MP resolution use?


My internet plan has a 1 TB limit.


This article though says bandwidth is only used when viewing footage, not recording?


https://blog.cammy.com/data-wireless-home-security-systems


Is this true?


If I have a NVR outputting to 2 monitors at the same time, but I'm not viewing the footage, it's not going to use bandwidth?


----------



## coug7669

nuraman00 said:


> How much bandwidth will 8 cameras recording 24/7 at 15fps, H.265 compression, and let's say worst case 4 MP resolution use?
> 
> 
> My internet plan has a 1 TB limit.
> 
> 
> This article though says bandwidth is only used when viewing footage, not recording?
> 
> 
> https://blog.cammy.com/data-wireless-home-security-systems
> 
> 
> Is this true?
> 
> 
> If I have a NVR outputting to 2 monitors at the same time, but I'm not viewing the footage, it's not going to use bandwidth?


It depends on the product. If you use Nest, they have 2 options. 1 Nest Aware which continuously uploads to the cloud. This option will eat up your bandwidth. Think about 300-350 Gb per month. The 2 option only uses the web for notifications to your cell phone or email. This saves you bandwidth. What you lose is the ability to search any given time even those without setting off any warnings or notifications.

With Dahua cameras and NVRs as well as Hikvision cameras and NVR yes you would need to download the latest firmware as there is a backdoor that is wide open and anyone can access your system even if you changed the password. Here is a link you can read concerning Hikvision https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor. Follow the link to the US Government website and see all the products affected.Note that Grey Market hikvision products can never be fixed. Here is one concerning Dahua https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/03/dahua-hikvision-iot-devices-under-siege/ It lists all Dahua products affected. Both products are safe to use only when they are NOT connected to the internet. Kinda defeats the purpose of a security system if it cannot connect to the web when an alarm or notification pops up. Hikvision lists all its USA partners here http://www.hikvision.com/us/distributionPartner.aspx?stat=1&c_kind=43&c_kind2=45&c_kind3=56. If your source is not listed there he may be a grey market dealer and his product might be unable to upgrade to the newest firmware.


----------



## nuraman00

coug7669 said:


> It depends on the product. If you use Nest, they have 2 options. 1 Nest Aware which continuously uploads to the cloud. This option will eat up your bandwidth. Think about 300-350 Gb per month. The 2 option only uses the web for notifications to your cell phone or email. This saves you bandwidth. What you lose is the ability to search any given time even those without setting off any warnings or notifications.
> 
> With Dahua cameras and NVRs as well as Hikvision cameras and NVR yes you would need to download the latest firmware as there is a backdoor that is wide open and anyone can access your system even if you changed the password. Here is a link you can read concerning Hikvision https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor. Follow the link to the US Government website and see all the products affected.Note that Grey Market hikvision products can never be fixed. Here is one concerning Dahua https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/03/dahua-hikvision-iot-devices-under-siege/ It lists all Dahua products affected. Both products are safe to use only when they are NOT connected to the internet. Kinda defeats the purpose of a security system if it cannot connect to the web when an alarm or notification pops up. Hikvision lists all its USA partners here http://www.hikvision.com/us/distributionPartner.aspx?stat=1&c_kind=43&c_kind2=45&c_kind3=56. If your source is not listed there he may be a grey market dealer and his product might be unable to upgrade to the newest firmware.



Thank you. Whatever product I get, I will update the latest firmware.

If I get a Dahau system with a NVR, and have it recording on continuous, with suspicious notifications enabled, then it will only use bandwidth when the notifications are sent, right? Not during normal 24/7 recording?


----------



## coug7669

correct. Only the notifications count against your internet total. Even then you can control whether you want a picture or a small video. You can record at 4k but send notifications as 640x480. You decide what you want in the confines of the software you use.


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## nuraman00

Had a meeting with a new installer for an evaluation.


I asked him about the alarm channels for the NVR. He said that was if you wanted to set a hardwired alarm so that it's connected to lights, your alarm system, or something else. Basically if some trigger event happens, then also do this (such as turn on some light). I don't think I'm going to do this.


From his evaluation, we talked about 5 varifocals and 4 fixed lens.


He was pushing for a 4 or 5 MP camera, saying they have improved noise filters. I told him I'd consider it, but had also wanted a quote for the IPC-HDW5231R-Z or IPC-HDW5231R-ZE.



I also asked about what if I were to source my own parts. He said he wouldn't be able to provide support for those parts, and he doesn't want to get into a situation where he can't provide support because it wasn't purchased through him.


He said Dahau would also refer me to the authorized dealer where it was purchased.


Maybe he just wants to make a profit on the parts. But it's also something to think about. I know people on the forums say they can help if there's a problem. But sometimes it's easier talking to someone on the phone, vs. a forum.


Let's see what the quoted prices for the various parts end up.


One other thing that came up, was how long the hard drive would last. He said with recording at 24/7, he's not sure how long they'd last, maybe less than a year, even for a Western Digital Purple. Or, he said there might be some lost sectors, decreasing the overall capacity. What does everyone think about this?


----------



## nuraman00

So the 9th camera I thought about adding last week would be in the garage.

Do you think there would be enough light at night, either when the side door is opened that connects to the side yard, or the garage door itself?


----------



## nuraman00

Do I need a 4K HDMI Extender, if the HDW5231R-ZE cameras are 2MP? Or is a 1080p HDMI Extender sufficient?


----------



## Timothy Wright

*HD cams and large hard drives*

I had a problem maybe 5 years ago, some charming children spray painted my retaining wall and being porous it was impossible to remove completely all the paint. It cost my home owners's insurance $19,000. The local police told me they knew who did the vandalism by my video was not high enough quality to successfully prosecute. My point is I'd always rather error on the side of much better video quality when ever possible. 

My NVR is a few years old and supports (3) 4TB hard drives. Hard drives are so inexpensive that whatever size I purchased I'd just get the largest supported capacity and fill every bay. I was speaking to the management of a restaurant and their cameras go back 120+ days. In my experience the security hard drives last about 5 years. I'm sure my cameras go back that far for my 16 cameras which run off of motion detection.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> I had a problem maybe 5 years ago, some charming children spray painted my retaining wall and being porous it was impossible to remove completely all the paint. It cost my home owners's insurance $19,000. The local police told me they knew who did the vandalism by my video was not high enough quality to successfully prosecute. My point is I'd always rather error on the side of much better video quality when ever possible.
> 
> My NVR is a few years old and supports (3) 4TB hard drives. Hard drives are so inexpensive that whatever size I purchased I'd just get the largest supported capacity and fill every bay. I was speaking to the management of a restaurant and their cameras go back 120+ days. In my experience the security hard drives last about 5 years. I'm sure my cameras go back that far for my 16 cameras which run off of motion detection.


Thanks for sharing.

If you feel comfortable, can you share what the spray paint video looks like? I'm curious as to what video quality was deemed not good enough. Maybe it was lacking in some angles?

Also, do you have any advice as to what type of HDMI Extender would be sufficient, from my 04/03 post?


----------



## Timothy Wright

>Thanks for sharing.

> If you feel comfortable, can you share what the spray paint video looks like? I'm curious as to what video quality was deemed not good enough. Maybe it was lacking in some angles?

> Also, do you have any advice as to what type of HDMI Extender would be sufficient, from my 04/03 post?

Incident was at night, at the end of my driveway 50' from the camera and perps were wearing hoodies so the face shots were not good enough for a positive ID. 

My NVR is network as are all my PC so I simply use a PC browser to watch security footage. The browsers built into TV's lack the ability to specify a port in the URL and thus are not amenable to monitoring the security cameras. One way to solve your problem would be to use a PC or laptop to feed the TV.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> >Thanks for sharing.
> 
> > If you feel comfortable, can you share what the spray paint video looks like? I'm curious as to what video quality was deemed not good enough. Maybe it was lacking in some angles?
> 
> > Also, do you have any advice as to what type of HDMI Extender would be sufficient, from my 04/03 post?
> 
> Incident was at night, at the end of my driveway 50' from the camera and perps were wearing hoodies so the face shots were not good enough for a positive ID.


Darn. So they were prepared for the incident and concealed themselves.

I guess you deduced they were kids, based on their heights?



Timothy Wright said:


> >Thanks for sharing.
> 
> 
> 
> My NVR is network as are all my PC so I simply use a PC browser to watch security footage. The browsers built into TV's lack the ability to specify a port in the URL and thus are not amenable to monitoring the security cameras. One way to solve your problem would be to use a PC or laptop to feed the TV.


Thanks. 

I was asking whether I needed a 4K HDMI Extender from the NVR, to the upstairs TV, or whether a 1080p HDMI Extender would be sufficient, since the cameras are 2MP and not a higher resolution.


----------



## funky54

I read the entire thread... I don’t usually do that. O.P. My advice is to hire someone you trust to do the entire job and pay them. They are worth what they ask. They have learned how to do this right at an expense to them. Listen to them. Not every professional is a crook. No offense but after reading all your questions.. the reply’s and then the questions that followed their reply’s... its my opinion you will be much better off paying someone who knows what they are doing.

I cringe even at the brands and retail locations you’re considering. Sometimes it’s not really cheaper when it’s all said and done. 

Imagine a year and a half from now you end up calling a professional because this or that isn’t right.. he’s going to suggest you replace the entire system at that time. Why not do that now, move on to another project.


----------



## Timothy Wright

funky54 said:


> I read the entire thread... I don’t usually do that. O.P. My advice is to hire someone you trust to do the entire job and pay them. They are worth what they ask. They have learned how to do this right at an expense to them. Listen to them. Not every professional is a crook. No offense but after reading all your questions.. the reply’s and then the questions that followed their reply’s... its my opinion you will be much better off paying someone who knows what they are doing.
> 
> I cringe even at the brands and retail locations you’re considering. Sometimes it’s not really cheaper when it’s all said and done.
> 
> Imagine a year and a half from now you end up calling a professional because this or that isn’t right.. he’s going to suggest you replace the entire system at that time. Why not do that now, move on to another project.


==============
I would like to second that opinion. In my case I called the local Catholic Dioceses because they have a history and experience with the highest standards professional security and surveillance. I asked them who they use for alarms and cameras. They referred me to locally owned very reputable firm and after a lot of consulting, (asking me what I needed and expected) they did a turn key solution, both alarms and cameras for me. I had wire to pull in almost every room, I now have network wire outlets in almost every room. I hate it when some slob has exposed wire dropping out of the ceiling it looks like schyte. For their expertise not only with alarms, but with cameras and with wire pulling I'd go pro and I would never look back. 

1, my system is discrete. 
2, my system is uber reliable.
3, ten years after the install I've few to zero problems.
4, When I have a problem the company sends a technician the next day and I don't have to fool with it.

Pulling wire in particular can be frustrating and a epic waste of time. When my cameras were installed the crew pulled almost all the wire for my 16 cameras in 2-3 hours. It would have taken me 2-3 weeks. I'd consider doing the job myself in new construction if the house had no drywall. But if that were the case then why not still get a professional install, if the job would be easy for me then it would be also that much less expensive for a pro.


----------



## nuraman00

I'm close to narrowing it down between two installers.

One question though. While many of the other installers have said that I would need conduit in some areas, one of the installers said for those locations, it was up to me. They said they could use it if I wanted, but they didn't have a strong recommendation about whether I needed it.

What do you think? Do you think it would be a good idea, if an area could use it?


----------



## nuraman00

funky54 said:


> I read the entire thread... I don’t usually do that. O.P. My advice is to hire someone you trust to do the entire job and pay them. They are worth what they ask. They have learned how to do this right at an expense to them. Listen to them. Not every professional is a crook. No offense but after reading all your questions.. the reply’s and then the questions that followed their reply’s... its my opinion you will be much better off paying someone who knows what they are doing.
> 
> * I cringe even at the brands and retail locations you’re considering. Sometimes it’s not really cheaper when it’s all said and done. *
> 
> Imagine a year and a half from now you end up calling a professional because this or that isn’t right.. he’s going to suggest you replace the entire system at that time. Why not do that now, move on to another project.


I haven't updated this thread with a more detailed list of parts in a while. I will try to do that within a few days.

I'd be using Dahua cameras, though. Do you have an opinion on them?


----------



## nuraman00

I've taken some recommendation from just about every installer I've communicated with, to get to where I am today.

I've listened to what each one has said. Almost every one has mentioned something useful.


----------



## nuraman00

I'll post late this week about where I am with the installers, and what parts I'm settling in on. 

I just wanted to recap what it's been like, with the 7 different installers that have done evaluations since August.


For a few of them, their install rates were high, or they estimated a lot more hours than others. I posted what rate they quoted on another forum, and several people said that it was the equivalent of paying $400 for an oil change.

Their prices for the parts were fine, though.

Still, there were some useful things they said about the evaluation, that I have applied.

For a few others, their install rates were fine, but it felt like they were recommending parts that were new and they wanted to have tried out, rather than going with something that has been used for some time and is more trusted. They would talk about how there's a new noise filter with this model, or such.

And/or, their parts were marked up 30-50% for the same models, from what I could find from other installers or official retail sites. For one example, in the case of a 6TB hard drive, that was marked up 100%.

Again, there were still some helpful things I learned from them, during their evaluation.

So after that, I then started to look for someone who could let me buy the parts that I've researched and seen used by others (with live footage uploads), and have the installer do the install only.

And I think I've finally found an installer that I trust, that is also reviewed well too.

I will update with the installer and parts breakdown later this week, after I check a few more things.


----------



## nuraman00

@Timothy Wright and others, what are your thoughts on having local microSD storage?


So I'd have some footage in case someone got to the NVR.


Good idea, or waste of money? (Because of the low chances of that happening)?


----------



## nuraman00

Should I be using a Uninterrupted Power Supply, for the NVR? So there would still be power for a little bit, if the power went out. If so, can someone recommend a model?


----------



## ezlotogura

nuraman00 said:


> Should I be using a Uninterrupted Power Supply, for the NVR? So there would still be power for a little bit, if the power went out. If so, can someone recommend a model?


You met with 7 installers
What did they recommend??

End of day some will charge more for labor or others for parts. They need to pay their bills. Some who extra for hardware may give extra waranties. May cover time to install and update OS’s. Also if you buy gear and they install and something is wrong who is to blame?


----------



## nuraman00

ezlotogura said:


> You met with 7 installers
> What did they recommend??
> 
> End of day some will charge more for labor or others for parts. They need to pay their bills. Some who extra for hardware may give extra waranties. May cover time to install and update OS’s. Also if you buy gear and they install and something is wrong who is to blame?


4 of those installers were in-person meetings. The others provided their evaluations using floor plans or Google Maps.

Only one of them mentioned an uninterrupted power supply (the 2nd to last one). But it was something I hadn't thought of before, so that's why I'm asking now.

He also recommended not plugging my downstairs TV into the uninterrupted power supply, because he said it would drain the power faster.

These were the 2 uninterrupted power supplys that were recommend.

What does everyone think, about whether I should get it, and about these models (or any others)?

https://www.amazon.com/APC-Battery-...qid=1527189953&sr=8-3&keywords=apc+1500va+ups

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000DZU02A?tag=price17125-20&ascsubtag=wtbs_5b0712771993b12519558b54


----------



## ezlotogura

nuraman00 said:


> 4 of those installers were in-person meetings. The others provided their evaluations using floor plans or Google Maps.
> 
> Only one of them mentioned an uninterrupted power supply (the 2nd to last one). But it was something I hadn't thought of before, so that's why I'm asking now.
> 
> He also recommended not plugging my downstairs TV into the uninterrupted power supply, because he said it would drain the power faster.
> 
> These were the 2 uninterrupted power supplys that were recommend.
> 
> What does everyone think, about whether I should get it, and about these models (or any others)?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/APC-Battery-...qid=1527189953&sr=8-3&keywords=apc+1500va+ups
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000DZU02A?tag=price17125-20&ascsubtag=wtbs_5b0712771993b12519558b54


maybe the dealer quoting the power supply was just trying to make more money by selling more hardware?
Should I turn the sarcasm off?

I didn't read your entire thread - that said, are these PoE cameras? is it a Switch/NVR in one? I have a switch, I have an NVR and I have 5 cameras. All separate pieces. If lost power and my NVR was on a battery back up great my NVR keeps recording - but what is it recording since my PoE Switch (and then cameras) lost power. 

Anything will drain a battery if it is left on to draw power and the supply turns to the battery for power. only essentials should be plugged in. that is just normal practice for how a battery operates, no?


----------



## nuraman00

ezlotogura said:


> maybe the dealer quoting the power supply was just trying to make more money by selling more hardware?
> Should I turn the sarcasm off?
> 
> I didn't read your entire thread - that said, are these PoE cameras? is it a Switch/NVR in one? I have a switch, I have an NVR and I have 5 cameras. All separate pieces. If lost power and my NVR was on a battery back up great my NVR keeps recording - but what is it recording since my PoE Switch (and then cameras) lost power.
> 
> Anything will drain a battery if it is left on to draw power and the supply turns to the battery for power. only essentials should be plugged in. that is just normal practice for how a battery operates, no?


Thanks for the prompt response.

Yes, these are PoE cameras. And yes, the switch is built into the NVR.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...technology_n54b3p_16_channel_epoe_4k_nvr.html

Thanks for the confirmation about only plugging in essentials. It helps to get confirmation from multiple sources.

I wasn't sure whether the TV would drain as much power as he said, and I also thought to myself what if I wanted to view what was being recorded. But thinking about the situation, usually power outages aren't too long, and I can always wait until the power comes back on to view what I wanted to.

Do you have a recommendation about an uninterrupted power supply model, or the ones the installer recommended? I'm not sure what specs I should be looking for.

I think each of the in-person installers had some interesting points. There were some things some brought up that others didn't.

Even more interesting was when the last one said that one of the previous installer's camera placement was unnecessary, and that that camera wasn't necessary. That dropped my camera total from 9 to 8. They said that most of the time, I'd be getting someone's back. The 2nd to last installer had said that the placement would help in getting some sides of faces. But then when the last installer came, they showed how I would already be getting a lot of angles with the other cameras. After hearing that, I then agreed.

I thought some of the different perspectives each installer provided, for some specific situations, was useful as it gave me different perspectives to consider. They all agreed on some things, and then there were a few other things where there were varying opinions.

Thanks again.


----------



## ezlotogura

nuraman00 said:


> Thanks for the prompt response.
> 
> Yes, these are PoE cameras. And yes, the switch is built into the NVR.
> 
> https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...technology_n54b3p_16_channel_epoe_4k_nvr.html
> 
> Thanks for the confirmation about only plugging in essentials. It helps to get confirmation from multiple sources.
> 
> I wasn't sure whether the TV would drain as much power as he said, and I also thought to myself what if I wanted to view what was being recorded. But thinking about the situation, usually power outages aren't too long, and I can always wait until the power comes back in to view what I wanted to.
> 
> Do you have a recommendation about an uninterrupted power supply model, or the ones the installer recommended? I'm not sure what specs I should be looking for.
> 
> I think each of the in-person installers had some interesting points. There were some things some brought up that others didn't.
> 
> Even more interesting was when the last one said that one of the previous installer's camera placement was unnecessary, and that that camera wasn't necessary. That dropped my camera total from 9 to 8. They said that most of the time, I'd be getting someone's back. The 2nd to last installer had said that the placement would help in getting some sides of faces. But then when the last installer came, they showed how I would already be getting a lot of angles with the other cameras. After hearing that, I then agreed.
> 
> I thought some of the different perspectives each installer provided, for some specific situations, was useful as it gave me different perspectives to consider. They all agreed on some things, and then there were a few other things where there were varying opinions.
> 
> Thanks again.


APC is kind of the prosumer grade power supply. Do you need it? no. do you want one - your call. it will simply keep your system up and running for X period of time. Bigger system, the more run time you can get.

refurbups.com - I was skeptical but their site got some great reviews and I was able to save some good money so I gave it a shot. I had a question on the order, so I called in and they were super helpful to answer my questions. He said let me write up your order, I said fine, I gave him my address, who knew their office is all of 10 minutes from my house, the sales guy I was dealing with lives in my area, so that night he met me in town and gave me the unit to save me $30 on shipping. Great service if you ask me. PM me and I can give you my contact's name over there if you call in you can ask for him. give him what you want to back up, run time you expect and he can help you

the more run time you want the price goes up, is it worth $200-$500 to get 20 mins to 2 hours of back up time? I am making up those prices / run time equation but you get the idea.

no installer can say it is required because it is not. get something that lasts 2 hours, and if something happens 4 hours later and you are still out of power your UPS "failed"

that said, a basic UPS isnt an awful idea in case you have a quick power blip, you'll stay steady and online. if you experience a lot of power blips where you live id buy at least a small capacity UPS just to keep runtime steady


----------



## nuraman00

ezlotogura said:


> APC is kind of the prosumer grade power supply. Do you need it? no. do you want one - your call. it will simply keep your system up and running for X period of time. Bigger system, the more run time you can get.
> 
> refurbups.com - I was skeptical but their site got some great reviews and I was able to save some good money so I gave it a shot. I had a question on the order, so I called in and they were super helpful to answer my questions. He said let me write up your order, I said fine, I gave him my address, who knew their office is all of 10 minutes from my house, the sales guy I was dealing with lives in my area, so that night he met me in town and gave me the unit to save me $30 on shipping. Great service if you ask me. PM me and I can give you my contact's name over there if you call in you can ask for him. give him what you want to back up, run time you expect and he can help you
> 
> the more run time you want the price goes up, is it worth $200-$500 to get 20 mins to 2 hours of back up time? I am making up those prices / run time equation but you get the idea.
> 
> no installer can say it is required because it is not. get something that lasts 2 hours, and if something happens 4 hours later and you are still out of power your UPS "failed"
> 
> that said, a basic UPS isnt an awful idea in case you have a quick power blip, you'll stay steady and online. if you experience a lot of power blips where you live id buy at least a small capacity UPS just to keep runtime steady





Thanks for the info that APC is prosumer. Yeah, I think that's more than I need.


Your 2 hour recommendation is good.


No, there's not a lot of power outtages. 1 - 2 times a year, at most, usually. But there were two ones in a day earlier this week, so that got me thinking about his recommendation again.


According to the NVR specs:


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...i_nvr54a16_16p_4ks2_16_channel_nvr_4sata.html


The NVR itself uses 15.2 Watts (without the hard drive), and the PoE uses 150W.


So the load might be 165 Watts.


Using this Amazon runtime chart, I would be getting 10-15 mins of backup.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000DZU02A?tag=vs-avsforum-convert-20&th=1


Am I doing the math correctly? If so, that's not much. If I do this, I'd like to at least get 1 hour, maybe 45 mins. Other I don't think it's worth it.


Is this something that can be done, for $100 - $300?


----------



## ezlotogura

nuraman00 said:


> Thanks for the info that APC is prosumer. Yeah, I think that's more than I need.
> 
> 
> Your 2 hour recommendation is good.
> 
> 
> No, there's not a lot of power outtages. 1 - 2 times a year, at most, usually. But there were two ones in a day earlier this week, so that got me thinking about his recommendation again.
> 
> 
> According to the NVR specs:
> 
> 
> https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...i_nvr54a16_16p_4ks2_16_channel_nvr_4sata.html
> 
> 
> The NVR itself uses 15.2 Watts (without the hard drive), and the PoE uses 150W.
> 
> 
> So the load might be 165 Watts.
> 
> 
> Using this Amazon runtime chart, I would be getting 10-15 mins of backup.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000DZU02A?tag=vs-avsforum-convert-20&th=1
> 
> 
> Am I doing the math correctly? If so, that's not much. If I do this, I'd like to at least get 1 hour, maybe 45 mins. Other I don't think it's worth it.
> 
> 
> Is this something that can be done, for $100 - $300?


in that price range you likely will not get the runtime you desire. I could be wrong, but I am not a UPS expert which is why I gave you a company to call and ask.


----------



## nuraman00

ezlotogura said:


> in that price range you likely will not get the runtime you desire. I could be wrong, but I am not a UPS expert which is why I gave you a company to call and ask.



Thanks. I just called Refurb UPS. I left a voice mail. Their customer service is M - F. Hopefully they either call me back on Tuesday (Monday is a holiday), or I'm able to call them.


I'll get in touch with them and explain what I'm looking for, and get some answers there.


Ok, at least I have an idea of what is possible. Right now, it's likely the UPS with a runtime I desire is out of my budget. But it's something I could consider later down the road, when I have a budget for "nice to have" items. I'll know for sure after I get in touch with them.


----------



## nuraman00

I called the company, Refurb UPS.

I told them my scenario. They also confirmed that I should be adding the watts, to get 167 W.

They recommended this model to me:

APC Smart-UPS 1500 LCD (SMT1500) - APC UPS System | RefurbUPS.com

This one has 1440 VA, with a max load of 1000W.

APC's website has a more discrete graph.

Country Selection Page

The guy on the phone estimated about 80 minutes of runtime. Looking at the graph, this would give me 101 minutes of runtime, at 170 watts.

And the cost from Refurb UPS is $210 pre-shipping, which becomes $272 after shipping.

This APC model is also 60 pounds! That seems too big for home use.




I also called CyberPower 's customer support, and told them what I would be using it for. I also asked them whether I was doing the power consumption calculations correctly.


They agreed that I should be adding 150 + 17 W = 167 W.

I asked if they could give me a better runtime estimate. They said they had internal tools for that, and that they estimated between 45 - 50 minutes for about 167 Watts.

That sounds good to me. 

CP1500AVRLCD - Intelligent LCD UPS Series - Product Details, Specs, Downloads | CyberPower

This is for the 1500 VA, with a max load of 900W.

The CyberPower one is $145, shipping included. The weight is also 25 lbs, for reference. 


Thoughts?


----------



## ezlotogura

Google is your friend

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...1i20i264k1j0i10k1j33i22i29i30k1.0.NA1H9RxZXak


----------



## avtvhdbass

Have you looked at unifi cameras?.
(quickly glanced through the thread not fully read.)

Not sure about the weather conditions at your place if you live in extreme cold weather
you will require cameras rated for IP64 or above.

Do not use microsd cards. If you are worried about video corruption etc then you need to have the NVR to upload the videos to cloud.

Also any cameras exposed directly to internet will eventually get hacked. I would put all cameras on a different network(VLAN) and block access to internet.


----------



## nuraman00

ezlotogura said:


> Google is your friend
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?sourc...1i20i264k1j0i10k1j33i22i29i30k1.0.NA1H9RxZXak



Thanks.




avtvhdbass said:


> Have you looked at unifi cameras?.
> (quickly glanced through the thread not fully read.)
> 
> Not sure about the weather conditions at your place if you live in extreme cold weather
> you will require cameras rated for IP64 or above.
> 
> * Do not use microsd cards. If you are worried about video corruption etc then you need to have the NVR to upload the videos to cloud.*
> 
> Also any cameras exposed directly to internet will eventually get hacked. I would put all cameras on a different network(VLAN) and block access to internet.



Thanks for the recommendations. Yeah, I wasn't worried about video corruption, but just thought about having microsd as a backup. But people are recommending against it, so I'll pass.


----------



## nuraman00

avtvhdbass said:


> Have you looked at unifi cameras?.
> (quickly glanced through the thread not fully read.)
> 
> Not sure about the weather conditions at your place if you live in extreme cold weather
> you will require cameras rated for IP64 or above.
> 
> Do not use microsd cards. If you are worried about video corruption etc then you need to have the NVR to upload the videos to cloud.
> 
> *Also any cameras exposed directly to internet will eventually get hacked. I would put all cameras on a different network(VLAN) and block access to internet*.



I have a Arris Interactive, L.L.C. TG862G router/modem.


Can I set up a VLAN? It looks like I might be able to, but I am not sure, and am not sure how.


http://www.arris.com/products/touchstone-telephony-gateway-tg862/


----------



## nuraman00

avtvhdbass said:


> Have you looked at unifi cameras?.
> (quickly glanced through the thread not fully read.)
> 
> Not sure about the weather conditions at your place if you live in extreme cold weather
> you will require cameras rated for IP64 or above.
> 
> Do not use microsd cards. If you are worried about video corruption etc then you need to have the NVR to upload the videos to cloud.
> 
> *Also any cameras exposed directly to internet will eventually get hacked. I would put all cameras on a different network(VLAN) and block access to internet.*



While this isn't a VLAN, bought a new router and set up a VPN Server using OpenVPN.


I also added a profile for a Windows client under the VPN Client settings.


I don't have my cameras installed yet.


The connected devices I do have on my home network, are an Ooma VoIP, and a Tivo DVR.



How can I access my Tivo or Ooma differently via the VPN, then I would via Wi-Fi or hardwire?

Basically, I want some way to test that I can do something different on my VPN, then on Wi Fi or hardwire.

But can I test this when I'm already at home, on my home network? 




I went to whatismyip on my desktop, and on my phone, after connecting to the VPN. The public IPv4 was the same, but the local IP was different.


If I log into my router, and go to the VPN Server section, and look at the user name, it says "Connected" in green.


----------



## nuraman00

Ok, I was at the grocery store and I connected to their Wi-Fi. I was able to connect to my router when I was connected to the VPN, and I wasn't when I disconnected.


So that validates that.


However, I was unable to connect to my DDNS from the web browser, even after logging into my VPN. Why is that? I just used the URL as is, with no slashes or anything after it.


Also, after connecting to the VPN, if I browse the internet, am I only using bandwidth from my home router? I ask because Tivo Online only lets one watch recorded shows if one is on the home network.


(Tivo Online is down right now, so I couldn't test this at the grocery store.)



Is there some configuration I have to do to browse the internet from my home router, after logging into the VPN?


----------



## nuraman00

I haven't purchased my TV yet that I'll keep upstairs, for camera monitoring.

I noticed this weekend though that there's a 2018 version of the model I wanted to purchase. 

Considering that I only plan to use this TV for camera monitoring (no TV service; movies; or video games), should I go with the 2017 version that I'd planned to buy, for $800, or the 2018 version for $1100?

Sony XBR49X900E vs XBR49X900F.


I've read about the differences. Some with the HDR processor, some with the placement of ports.

http://www.uhdledtvcomparison.com/s...x900f-vs-xbr65x900e-xbr75x900f-vs-xbr75x900e/


----------



## nuraman00

Back to the discussion of what I should plug into my APC uninterrupted power supply:

Here's what I'm thinking:

Should connect:

* NVR 5416-16P-4KS2: ~ 17 - 23 Watts
* Asus AC2900 Router: ??? Watts
* TP-Link 7620 Modem: ??? Watts

Nice to have:

* Ooma Telo VoIP device: ??? Watts
* Uniden landline phone: ??? Watts
* Tivo Premiere XL4 DVR: ~ 23 - 26 Watts

Nice, but not necessary:

* Plasma TV: 436 Watts when in use, 0.2 Watts in standby. This would be nice, but if I were to use it during a power outage, it would use 1/2 the load by itself. I can wait until the power's back on.

* Desktop PC: I used this power supply calculator:

Power Supply Calculator - PSU Calculator | OuterVision

It estimated my PC would use about 305 Watts of power. That's too much. If anything, I should have a dedicated APC BX1500M for it.


So right now I'm thinking I should connect the NVR, router, and modem. I don't think the Ooma Telo and landline phone consume much power, so probably those too.

Then, for the Tivo, see what the total is for the other devices without it. If it's low enough, then add it. Otherwise, don't, or wait until I get a 2nd APC.

Thoughts on this? Any comments or suggestions?


----------



## nuraman00

So I had placed an order for all remaining parts (hard drive, APC UPS, etc.) on July 29th. At the time, it said the APC was backordered on BH Photo Video, but it would be available in 7 - 14 days.


I've been checking every day.


I checked today, and it said October 3rd.


I called and asked if it was possible for a refund. The representative also checked the date, and said that was wrong, it's really September 23rd.


I also see it's backordered on Amazon.


It says it's in stock right now on New Egg, and on eBay's New Egg Store. I'd have to pay tax though. It can arrive in a week.


I guess I need to think about it for a little bit, about whether I should cancel the BH Photo Video order, or not. If I get it in a week, I still probably can't make the appointment with the installer until the end of the month, because they're usually booked for 2 - 3 weeks in advance.


----------



## funky54

Wow... 7 guys have taken the time to drive to your home, evaluate, design, propose and likely follow up with you. They are worth money. They are giving you expertise and you are taking advantage of them. 

What do you do for a living? Would you want someone to come along ask a thousand questions, bleed you for your value ..knowledge. Then they take your invested time, that precious knowledge and cheapen it down to pennies and give that knowledge to someone who doesnt know? Someone who is just cheap. That’s not fair or Kind. Those “installers” have over head. It costs them money to do business. They are not selling hours or product. They are selling knowledge, but compress it in MSRP or hourly rates. You’re cheating them. 

If you’re a handy dandy DIY guy and you want to go out and learn then do that. Buy some stuff and find out the hard way what works and what doesn’t. But don’t take advantage of someone working long hours trying ot provide for their family’s. Look at this thread. Think about the time installers have spent with you. 

I don’t mean to sound harsh or cruel.. but I’m glad you haven’t called my office. I’m glad I didn’t put you on my schedule and taken time to come talk with you. I’d be there for a potential sale. I’d be providing knowledge that didn’t come cheap. You’d get your moneys worth. Whatever we engineer for your solution, would really work and we would stand behind it. I doubt at the end of this journey it’s going to save you any money or time. You likely wont be happy with the end product either.


----------



## nuraman00

funky54 said:


> Wow... 7 guys have taken the time to drive to your home, evaluate, design, propose and likely follow up with you. They are worth money. They are giving you expertise and you are taking advantage of them.
> 
> What do you do for a living? Would you want someone to come along ask a thousand questions, bleed you for your value ..knowledge. Then they take your invested time, that precious knowledge and cheapen it down to pennies and give that knowledge to someone who doesnt know? Someone who is just cheap. That’s not fair or Kind. Those “installers” have over head. It costs them money to do business. They are not selling hours or product. They are selling knowledge, but compress it in MSRP or hourly rates. You’re cheating them.
> 
> If you’re a handy dandy DIY guy and you want to go out and learn then do that. Buy some stuff and find out the hard way what works and what doesn’t. But don’t take advantage of someone working long hours trying ot provide for their family’s. Look at this thread. Think about the time installers have spent with you.
> 
> I don’t mean to sound harsh or cruel.. but I’m glad you haven’t called my office. I’m glad I didn’t put you on my schedule and taken time to come talk with you. I’d be there for a potential sale. I’d be providing knowledge that didn’t come cheap. You’d get your moneys worth. Whatever we engineer for your solution, would really work and we would stand behind it. I doubt at the end of this journey it’s going to save you any money or time. You likely wont be happy with the end product either.



Fair enough.


Also, I was content with the 2nd installer who did the onsite visit. Before his visit, there was a quote for 5 cameras. During the visit, we had talked about 8 cameras.


I asked for an updated quote. He said he was busy with some large projects, but would get back to me. He also said he had recently expanded his business to work 7 days a week, in order to handle the increased workload. I thought fine, I can wait for the updated quote. 3+ months later, he still hadn't given me the updated quote, even though I checked back with him and he said he'd do it soon, each time. After 3.5 months, he then said he no longer supported the camera brand we had initially talked about. He said he just wanted to focus on one brand for his company. Between never getting the updated quote, and him changing brands, I was frustrated. I didn't want a different brand anymore. I didn't tell him that I didn't want the new brand, as I wanted to see if I would finally get that updated quote for 8 cameras. If he had updated the quote, I could have started reading about the new brand and models he was suggesting. But, even after telling me 3.5 months later that he only supported one brand now, he still didn't send an updated quote after that last conversation. As I said, after his onsite visit, I had stopped actively looking for new installers, as I thought I would be getting a new quote soon and I could proceed from there. Only after those 3.5 months (plus a few more weeks before I finally gave up on getting that updated quote) did I actively look for new installers again.


Not all 7 installers did onsite visits. Some did it via Google Maps or floor plans I sent them.  There were 4 that did onsite visits.


Also, after I had finally decided that the installer wasn't going to give me an updated quote (4+ months after his visit), and it was time to actively look for installers again, I met with a 3rd and 4th installer who did an onsite visit. The 3rd one suggested 2 cameras near the main door, one facing the door, one facing away from the door, bringing the total to 9 cameras. The 4th installer (who came a few days after the 3rd) thought it was stupid to have a camera facing the door and shook his head. Given that I was getting two very different conflicting opinions about that area, I had to think about the reasons each one gave for why they recommended that area the way they did. So that was another decision point for me, to consider which recommendation made more sense.



For one of the installers that did onsite visits, I just didn't have a good feeling based on reviews I had seen where people posted pictures of sloppy installation. There were enough examples across different reviewers that I didn't want to pick them. There were good reviews too.


So the decision to pass on some of the installers wasn't about the money. One was because I waited 4 months and never got an updated quote. One was because I had reservations about the quality of the installation (the only one I felt that way about).


Then I had to consider the case where I got two different opinions about how to cover the front door. So I had to think about what each said.


Then there were 2 more different opinions between some of them about how/where to do the garage; and whether a fixed lens was sufficient for one of the other areas. So those were 2 other points where I was getting different opinions, so I had to think about the reasons each one gave for their recommendation.



I've settled on an installer since late March.


The time since then was about researching Uninterrupted Power Supplies, and setting up a VPN. I asked some of the installers if they would set up a VPN as a part of their installation process, but they said no, it was out of their scope. So I learned how to do it myself. 



I also had to get a new router, as the old one didn't support that. So that's where some of the time also went, into researching routers (and a new modem).


Other things I've done since then is get the 2nd TV for upstairs (which I plan to mainly use for monitoring). Finally getting it, and having it installed by the handyman also took time.


----------



## nuraman00

nuraman00 said:


> So I had placed an order for all remaining parts (hard drive, APC UPS, etc.) on July 29th. At the time, it said the APC was backordered on BH Photo Video, but it would be available in 7 - 14 days.
> 
> 
> I've been checking every day.
> 
> 
> I checked today, and it said October 3rd.
> 
> 
> I called and asked if it was possible for a refund. The representative also checked the date, and said that was wrong, it's really September 23rd.
> 
> 
> I also see it's backordered on Amazon.
> 
> 
> It says it's in stock right now on New Egg, and on eBay's New Egg Store. I'd have to pay tax though. It can arrive in a week.
> 
> 
> I guess I need to think about it for a little bit, about whether I should cancel the BH Photo Video order, or not. If I get it in a week, I still probably can't make the appointment with the installer until the end of the month, because they're usually booked for 2 - 3 weeks in advance.



So, in the past few weeks, I called APC and asked why I had a hard time finding a certain model all of a sudden. It had been available for the past few months, in stock across several retailers, up until the day I placed my order.


They did some research, and said that the model was being phased out. They told about a new model.


I did more research, and also called them back to ask them some more questions about the differences between a few seemingly similar models. I learned about how some models output a simulated sine wave, while others do a true sine wave.


I then made a decision on what in stock model to get (one with a true sine wave), and placed an order. It will arrive soon. 



I also cancelled the previous order I had placed, which was still on backorder with an indeterminate time table.


----------



## nuraman00

I just plugged in my APC. I think it needs 16 hours to charge, even though it says the runtime with 0 load is 179 mins.


So I will check back Saturday evening, and start plugging in stuff then.


----------



## nuraman00

I've plugged in:


Router, modem, landline phone, and Tivo. This takes 36 - 39 Watts.



I couldn't plug in the Ooma because the shape of the plug blocks too many outlets. So that's in my old surge protector for now.


This seems pretty good, pre-NVR.


I have 2 empty battery backed outlets, which would be good for the NVR, and maybe a network switch if I ever get one. Hopefully the switch doesn't have a weird shaped plug that blocks outlets.



I ran into some problems because my network wasn't recognized anymore after plugging in the router and modem into the APC.


It kept saying "unplugged".


After about 45 mins of trouble shooting, I figured out that one of the new Ethernet cables I used in this expanded setup was defective. I swapped it with another cable, and everything worked. At first, I thought something was wrong with the APC Ethernet ports, so I tried to plug in the cables the way they were before, without the APC. When that wasn't working, tried each of the new cables I had used today until I figured out which one was the bad one.


How do I see the APC runtime with the current load? Even after plugging in things today and having a load, it still says 179 minutes. That can't be right, because that's what it said before I plugged in things.


----------



## nuraman00

Had the cameras and NVR installed today.

Total power from the APC with the switch, router, modem, Tivo, Ooma, and NVR is 98 - 100 watts. That has an estimated runtime of 72 minutes.

I'll post overall thoughts later on the system, and get some other questions answered first.


----------



## socalsharky

nuraman00 said:


> Had the cameras and NVR installed today.
> 
> Total power from the APC with the switch, router, modem, Tivo, Ooma, and NVR is 98 - 100 watts. That has an estimated runtime of 72 minutes.
> 
> I'll post overall thoughts later on the system, and get some other questions answered first.



Can you post the list of the equipment you eventually went with? Thanks.


----------



## nuraman00

socalsharky said:


> Can you post the list of the equipment you eventually went with? Thanks.


Yes, I'll do that. Do you want the cameras and NVR, or anything else too?


----------



## socalsharky

nuraman00 said:


> Yes, I'll do that. Do you want the cameras and NVR, or anything else too?



Any other relevant equipment, such as PoE switch, software, mounting brackets, etc., would be helpful. Are you integrating this with a Smart Home system such as HomeSeer or Smart Things?


----------



## nuraman00

socalsharky said:


> Any other relevant equipment, such as PoE switch, software, mounting brackets, etc., would be helpful. Are you integrating this with a Smart Home system such as HomeSeer or Smart Things?


Ok, will do. I'll make a post with what I ended up doing, and what I think about it after the fact.

If not today, I'll do it within a few days.


----------



## nuraman00

@socalsharky: I'll make the post on Sunday, probably evening.


----------



## nuraman00

socalsharky said:


> Can you post the list of the equipment you eventually went with? Thanks.





socalsharky said:


> Any other relevant equipment, such as PoE switch, software, mounting brackets, etc., would be helpful. Are you integrating this with a Smart Home system such as HomeSeer or Smart Things?



It's been a little over a month since I've now had the camera security system installed.


Let me give a quick overview of the process.


In August 2017, I decided I needed a camera security system. I initially met with 2 installers who provided evaluations and estimates. I liked the 2nd one better. But after the onsite meeting with him, we decided to go from 5 to 8 cameras. 



I kept waiting for an updated estimate. He said he was busy with a large project but he would get back to me. Over the next 4 months, after every time I checked with him, he'd say he'd get back to me soon, but he never would.


Finally near the end of that 4 month period, he said he no longer supported the brand we initially talked about. I was disappointed. But I still wanted to see what parts and manufacturers he now recommended. But I STILL never got an updated estimate, even after he said he only supported one brand now.


So finally I started looking at a few more installers. I then settled on one. He said I could buy my own parts and he could do an install only.


For the next 6 months, he was great, and prompt at answering all of my pre-install questions. And, there was no upselling or unrealistic claims from him.


After his install, I was very happy with how clean the install looked, all-around. Even in the attic. For example, I can see a clear difference between how neat his install was in the attic, when compared to the cable and satellite installers from years ago.


Not only that, but a few hours after the installation was done and he left, I realized I never got the security warning signs or stickers. That was one of the things I had asked about prior to the install, and he said he could provide them. He kept his word and dropped them off another day.


So I'm happy with the installer that I chose.


Here's the equipment I have:


*Cameras*: 8 x Dahua IPC-HDW5231R-ZE


These are 2 MP varifocal cameras. 



I wanted varifocals, because I wanted a little flexibility after installation to make some adjustments to the cameras.


Not every location needed varifocals. But given how there isn't much of a price difference between fixed lens of the same series, and varifocals, I thought why not get them all.


After the installation, and actually seeing the cameras in use, I see that it wouldn't have been terrible had I gone with fixed lens. But I'm still glad I went with varifocals.


For example, the house is in the deepest part of a court. Because it's a court, it means there's only one way in or out. Had this been a fixed lens camera, it would have been too far back to make anything out near the opening of the court. But because it was a varifocal, I'm able to zoom in a little more to the court entrance, while also not losing the field of view of the side gate entrance. So I can still see activity leading up to the side gate, for one of the cameras.


I've made zoom adjustments on 3 of the 8 cameras.


Also, the low light capabilities have been as good as I envisioned. I'd seen videos people posted online of these cameras in use. But I'm also glad that for my conditions, it's been as good what I saw from others' too.


These cameras also have built-in mics. When we were checking the installation, the installer's son was surprised that these cameras had sound. I guess the cameras from the installer's own company don't have built-in mics.



So, so far, I'm happy with the camera selection.


*NVR:* Dahua NVR5416-16P-4KS2E.


During my research and pre-installation phase, I realized that I wanted a NVR with 2 HDMI outputs. This is because I had one TV downstairs that was 1080p, and a new TV upstairs that would be 4K.


So I wanted to output one HDMI port at 1080p, and the other at 4K. I had explained my NVR and TV situation to several installers, as well as the NVR manufacturer (Dahua), and all of them agreed that I needed a NVR with 2 HDMI outputs.


After the install, I discovered one issue with this setup. While there are 3 USB ports on this NVR, all of them only control what happens on HDMI 1.


For HDMI 2, all I can do is view the cameras. What I mean is I can view the live camera feeds on HDMI 2 (which was connected to my upstairs TV). I can set it to see all of the cameras at once, or I can set it to rotate in groups of 16 or 8, or 4, or 1. As in, if I set it to rotate in groups of 4, it will show cameras 1 - 4, then 5 - 8 (or however I define one "group".)


But, on HDMI 2, I don't have access to the configuration settings, or admin menu.


This may be ok for certain setups. But for me, I wanted full menu access whether I was upstairs or downstairs.


So what I ended up having to do post-install, was split HDMI 1 so that it went to both the downstairs TV, and upstairs TV. I already had both a USB and HDMI extender installed for the upstairs TV.


That way, both TVs mirrored the output from HDMI 1.


Had I known that the USB ports could only control HDMI 1, I might have gotten the NVR model with 1 HDMI port. After all the questions I asked about having the 2 TV setup, at different resolutions, I guess no one thought of the fact that the USB ports could only control 1 HDMI port.


This NVR has built-in PoE switches. That's what the 16P in the model name stands for.


I'm glad I got a NVR with built in PoE switches. It makes the physical setup much cleaner. I have all of the cat6 cables going to the NVR, then one cat6 cable going from the NVR, to my main switch for my router.


The regular switch (non PoE) that I have is a TP-Link TL-SG108E. I just got it a few weeks before my camera installation.



If I had gotten a PoE switch that I intended to be my main router switch too, I think it would have made for a messier physical setup. I would have needed a 24 port switch. 16 would be sufficient, but it would cut it too close, so I would have then gotten a bulkier 24 port switch. Given all of the other hardwire connections I have (desktop; Ooma; Tivo; Slingbox), it would make it messier to have that many cat6 cables all going to one switch. Keep in mind that I also have cat6 cables for the HDMI extender, and USB extender.



So, that's why I like this physical setup with the built-in PoE switches better.



There's one issue with the NVR: It is loud. I've read after the fact that NVRs with built-in switches are louder. 



The built-in PSU fan for the NVR is rated at 30 dB. I've seen a replacement fan online that's rated at 14 dB, but it also moves 40% less air (9.43 CFM vs. 5.53 CFM).


Given that the operating temperature is at 46 - 47 degrees Celsius, and we're currently in Autumn, and the max operating temperature is at 55 degrees, there's not much room for margin. I don't think I want to change the fan and risk getting closer to the max operating temperature. I haven't even seen what the temperature will be during summer, since I got the installation done in late September.


I used an app called Decibel-X a few hours ago.



The fan blows at 1380 - 1410 RPM. Here are the readings:

From across the room: 60 dB
If placed on top of the NVR, in the front: 74 dB
If placed on top of the NVR, but in the back (near where the fan is): 84 dB


Fortunately, if I'm watching TV or something, then it drowns out the NVR fan noise. It's only if I have the TV off, that I notice it.


Also, I have the NVR in an open style TV stand. I like the open style because it allows for easy access for ports in the back. This is helpful if I need to do something on the back of the Tivo or Slingbox. But I guess it also means that for something like a NVR, it allows for more noise to escape too.


I guess one thing to think about for next time would be to try and put the NVR in some kind of a closed cabinet. But then that will also take more physical space. As I already had a nice spot for the NVR, in between my DVD player, and my Tivo. I would have to get another piece of furniture, like a closed cabinet, for that. I don't think I want to add more furniture.


So, I don't think there is an easy solution. The noise is just something I will deal with.


Even if a NVR without a built-in switch is quieter, I think it makes the physical setup of having all hardwired devices go to that switch, messier.


I think if people don't have the devices I do, like a desktop, Tivo, Slingbox, and Ooma, then it's not as much of an issue. But I guess people can also use powerline Ethernet adapters and such so there's less long Ethernet cables. I guess everyone has their own ideas of what makes for the best physical setup for them.

*Software:*


For direct use on the NVR, I use the built-in Dahua software. It's pretty good for what I've used it for, so far.


For remote viewing on a PC, I use the web interface. There is also an app called SmartPSS, but I like the web interface a little more.


For remote viewing on a mobile, I use Gdmss Plus, which is free. The downside of a mobile app is that I can only access the most recent 1 - 2 hours of recordings. Whereas with the web interface, I can access any day or time on the NVR itself.


*Mounting Brackets: *I bought the mounting brackets when I bought the cameras. While I bought both wall mounts and 2 ceiling mounts, the installer ended up using wall mounts for everything.


The exact mount that the installer will use can't really be determined until the installer starts installing. Also, some installers charge separately for mounts that they provide. For the installer I went with, it was included as a part of the installation price. So even if the mounts I bought wouldn't have worked for some reason, I would have just used the installer's.


*Smart Home System:* No, I am not integrating it with a smart home system, such as Home Seer or Smart Things. I'm not sure I need to. I have my rules pretty simple. 7 of the cameras are 24/7. The garage camera is on motion only. 



The NVR has a lot of configuration options for how I want to set my recording rules. But I'm keeping it simple.


Because I'm recording the outside cameras 24/7, if something happens, I will capture it. I don't need to worry about IF it will sense something. Or I don't have to worry about wastage in motion detection recordings, with it recording a bunch of cats. There's several cats in the neighborhood, so if I had set it to motion, it would have recorded them often. Since I'm recording 24/7, I don't have to worry about false alerts.


If you recommend me integrating it with a smart home system, I'd like to hear your reasons, as well as how exactly I would do it. 



I have heard from someone that wants certain recording rules when going on a vacation, and others when at home. But I'm keeping my recording rules simple.


Also, here's a funny story of me using the camera recordings. A neighbor said a drone crashed into a tree in my backyard. He came at 9pm to tell me this, but said it happened earlier in the day. I couldn't find it at night. I said I would check during the morning or weekend afternoon, and see if I could find it.


While I did physically check, I also checked my recordings for 2 hours during the specified time range. I didn't hear or see anything.


I then told the neighbor that I couldn't find anything, but that he was welcome to come over and help look during the weekend. Later during the day, the neighbor then said he found it at the neighbor's next to me.


So the story is funny because if I had set the cameras to motion only, I don't know if the cameras would or would not have picked up a drone. But because I had it set to 24/7, I could say with strong degree of confidence that there wasn't a drone crash during the specified hours.


I have seen home automation for lights and fans, and I think that is useful. But right now, based on how I'm doing my recordings, as well as what the NVR software provides, I don't think I'm missing anything? But again, I'm always learning. So maybe there is a way I could use a smart home system to enhance my security cameras.


*Hard Drive:*


I went with a Western Digital 8TB Purple 5400 rpm.


This was one of the recording time calculators I used to help me determine the hard drive size:


https://www.security-camera-warehouse.com/cctv-record-time-calculator.php/


I had wanted at least 31 days of recording. 



According to the calculator, I'd need at least 6 TB. I'm recording at 15 fps using H.265 compression.


But, just before ordering the hard drive, I decided to upgrade to 8TB, just to be safe.


After the install, I was a bit dismayed because it seemed to be using about 167 GB per day. According to the calculator, I should have been using between 99 - 114 GB. (With the worst case being that the garage camera recorded 24/7, even though it was set to motion).


About 1.5 weeks later, I realized it was because the cameras were recording at constant bitrate.


I changed it to variable bitrate. After that, it started using about 72 GB per day, less than 1/2 of what it was before. So I was getting even more storage than I had calculated. 



*Router:* 



I ended up getting a new router, pre-install. I did this because I wanted to set up a VPN. My gateway that I was renting from the cable company didn't support that.


This time, I bought a router.


I bought the ASUS RT-AC86U AC2900. The stock firmware on the router supports VPN configuration.


It's easy to use the VPN. If I'm remote, I tap once on my mobile phone to connect to the VPN. Then I go to the remote viewing app, GDMSS Plus, and open that to connect to my camera feeds.


*Battery Back-Up:*




I went with the APC BR 1500VA. I chose this because it has a pure sine wave, instead of a simulated sine wave. This model has 6 battery backup ports.



It also allows the most runtime for a 1500 VA.


Let's talk about power consumption, since it is related to how much runtime I get.


The NVR and PoE switches use about 58 - 59 Watts during the day, and about 71 Watts at night. They use more power at night because of the infrared.


The PoE switches by themselves use about 24 watts during the day, and 37 - 38 at night.


On the battery backup ports, I have the following plugged in: Modem, Router, Switch, Ooma, Tivo, NVR. The total power consumed is 98 - 111 watts.


I have about 72 mins of runtime during the day, 65 at night. This is what the APC unit suggests I'll be getting. I can't say for sure that I would get that in a real case scenario, if I went on battery backup power entirely.



The runtime seems a few mins less than APC's chart online, but oh well.


According to the chart, I should be getting 77 mins at 100 watts, and 71 at 110 watts.


If I look at the runtime of an older, simulated sinewave model, then I get 73 mins at 100 watts, and 66 at 110 watts, which is close to what I'm getting. But I have the pure sine wave model, but I'm not getting real world runtimes of what their specs are. Oh well.



@*socalsharky* , let me know after you've read this, and if you have any feedback or questions. And, what you're thinking of doing, and if any of this helped.


----------



## socalsharky

nuraman00 said:


> @*socalsharky* , let me know after you've read this, and if you have any feedback or questions. And, what you're thinking of doing, and if any of this helped.



Thanks for the post. Very informative, and will likely be helpful when I get serious about planning my system.


----------



## Timothy Wright

I have been out of touch for a while, Mea Culpa.

On 12/12/18 I had a package stolen off of my patio, one might think the 12 exterior cameras would be a deterrent? The police have video. I was not impressed at all with the quality of the video using 1080p cameras even in daylight. 

I am in the process of replacing all my 16 cameras and I replaced my NVR. 

I have had superb support from Supercircuits.com which the same as AlibiSecurity.com. They repackage Nikvision, they only sell Alibi brand to dealers/installers but in most cases they will sell the exact same item, unbranded, at very substantial savings.

I replaced 15 of my cameras with model WL-TC5DV (5.0 Megapixel HD-TVI 135' IR Vandalproof Outdoor Varifocal Dome Security Camera), The cameras are EXIR, Sony Starvis and motorized zoom 5MP cameras. By stacking discounts just before Christmas I paid about $126 each for the cameras. Truth be told, I have the cameras here, but not installed until 1/4/19, the cameras were manufactured on 4/18 so they may no longer be state of the art. I suspect something there will always be something better just ahead.

These are not IP cameras, I am already wired for R59 coax.

I purchased a 16 camera NVR (WL-T1611H) which is an unbranded Alibi 4100H. That is currently installed and I am well pleased with it. I paid about $350 with Black Friday discounts.

I also purchased two WD 10TB Purple hard drives from Amazon for about $612, together I should have about 5-6 weeks history (with my sixteen 5MP cameras). For me hard drives totaled about 20% of total hardware costs. 

In my opinion there are 3 compelling technical reasons to consider a CCTV system now as opposed to a short time ago.

1) with Sony Starvis and EXIR recent cameras have much improved night vision, and honestly I suspect even more impressive night vision will always be just ahead.

2) Just a few years ago, 1MP or 2MP camera resolution was state of the art. Now 3MP, 4MP, 5MP, 6MP, 8MP, and 12MP cameras are for sale. The higher resolution cameras only work over coax cable at reduced frame rates, but you are not recording for entertainment but for video evidence. The compromise I struck was (16) 5MP (2592x1944) cameras at 12 fps. 

3) A whole new technology named "Video Analytics" is blossoming. Search on YouTube for many impressive videos. This technology requires capabilities in both the camera and NVR, both of the same brand for best results. 

Video Analytics Capabilities include:
Motion Detection
Face Detection
Vehicle Detection
Region Entrance
Region Exiting
Loitering Detection
People Gathering Detection
Fast Moving
Parking Detection
Unattended Baggage Detection
Object Removal
Defocus Detection
Sudden Scene Change
Passive Infrared
Line Crossing
Intrusion Detection
License Plate Recognition

All this technology may all be less helpful to a home owner than the NSA and TSA but it is fun to play with and very affordable. Suppose someone drives their SUV over your inflatable lawn Santa? About half the list above would apply. 

==

This Friday the new cameras get installed, I will be able to share more after that. 

Ten or twelve years ago my first CCTV system cost me $10,000. This upgrade will cost about one third that including the labor a professional electrician who specializes in camera installations and the two new purple hard drives. 

I guess what I like best about CCTV is that it is always completely humiliating to the jerk in court. With verbal testimony everyone tells their side and of course the defendant will always argue that you are exaggerating if not lying. In my experience as the guy with the videos, when someone does something really stupid and when you catch it on video and it is just flat out humiliating and beyond any defense other than to beg the court for mercy. Public humiliation is a strong deterrent. 

BTW, By all reports H.265+ is buggy and to be avoided. Buying NVR and cameras both capable of H.265 (no plus) is a hardware feature worth looking for. The improved compression at the camera increases frame rates over the coax which is the bottleneck in most systems. Any system that is H.265+ capable will be H2.65 capable as well, just check your settings.

Blessings of the Season, to one and all.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> I have been out of touch for a while, Mea Culpa.
> 
> On 12/12/18 I had a package stolen off of my patio, one might think the 12 exterior cameras would be a deterrent? The police have video. I was not impressed at all with the quality of the video using 1080p cameras even in daylight.
> 
> I am in the process of replacing all my 16 cameras and I replaced my NVR.
> 
> I have had superb support from Supercircuits.com which the same as AlibiSecurity.com. They repackage Nikvision, they only sell Alibi brand to dealers/installers but in most cases they will sell the exact same item, unbranded, at very substantial savings.
> 
> I replaced 15 of my cameras with model WL-TC5DV (5.0 Megapixel HD-TVI 135' IR Vandalproof Outdoor Varifocal Dome Security Camera), The cameras are EXIR, Sony Starvis and motorized zoom 5MP cameras. By stacking discounts just before Christmas I paid about $126 each for the cameras. Truth be told, I have the cameras here, but not installed until 1/4/19, the cameras were manufactured on 4/18 so they may no longer be state of the art. I suspect something there will always be something better just ahead.
> 
> These are not IP cameras, I am already wired for R59 coax.
> 
> I purchased a 16 camera NVR (WL-T1611H) which is an unbranded Alibi 4100H. That is currently installed and I am well pleased with it. I paid about $350 with Black Friday discounts.
> 
> I also purchased two WD 10TB Purple hard drives from Amazon for about $612, together I should have about 5-6 weeks history (with my sixteen 5MP cameras). For me hard drives totaled about 20% of total hardware costs.
> 
> In my opinion there are 3 compelling technical reasons to consider a CCTV system now as opposed to a short time ago.
> 
> 1) with Sony Starvis and EXIR recent cameras have much improved night vision, and honestly I suspect even more impressive night vision will always be just ahead.
> 
> 2) Just a few years ago, 1MP or 2MP camera resolution was state of the art. Now 3MP, 4MP, 5MP, 6MP, 8MP, and 12MP cameras are for sale. The higher resolution cameras only work over coax cable at reduced frame rates, but you are not recording for entertainment but for video evidence. The compromise I struck was (16) 5MP (2592x1944) cameras at 12 fps.
> 
> 3) A whole new technology named "Video Analytics" is blossoming. Search on YouTube for many impressive videos. This technology requires capabilities in both the camera and NVR, both of the same brand for best results.
> 
> Video Analytics Capabilities include:
> Motion Detection
> Face Detection
> Vehicle Detection
> Region Entrance
> Region Exiting
> Loitering Detection
> People Gathering Detection
> Fast Moving
> Parking Detection
> Unattended Baggage Detection
> Object Removal
> Defocus Detection
> Sudden Scene Change
> Passive Infrared
> Line Crossing
> Intrusion Detection
> License Plate Recognition
> 
> All this technology may all be less helpful to a home owner than the NSA and TSA but it is fun to play with and very affordable. Suppose someone drives their SUV over your inflatable lawn Santa? About half the list above would apply.
> 
> ==
> 
> This Friday the new cameras get installed, I will be able to share more after that.
> 
> Ten or twelve years ago my first CCTV system cost me $10,000. This upgrade will cost about one third that including the labor a professional electrician who specializes in camera installations and the two new purple hard drives.
> 
> I guess what I like best about CCTV is that it is always completely humiliating to the jerk in court. With verbal testimony everyone tells their side and of course the defendant will always argue that you are exaggerating if not lying. In my experience as the guy with the videos, when someone does something really stupid and when you catch it on video and it is just flat out humiliating and beyond any defense other than to beg the court for mercy. Public humiliation is a strong deterrent.
> 
> BTW, By all reports H.265+ is buggy and to be avoided. Buying NVR and cameras both capable of H.265 (no plus) is a hardware feature worth looking for. The improved compression at the camera increases frame rates over the coax which is the bottleneck in most systems. Any system that is H.265+ capable will be H2.65 capable as well, just check your settings.
> 
> Blessings of the Season, to one and all.



Good to hear from you. Thanks for checking in.


Sorry you got a package stolen.


Why did you go with a R59 coax camera system, instead of IP cameras? I don't know much about R59. What are the pros and cons of the two systems?


I tried setting up some rules that used tripwire for detection. But it didn't work as well as I'd like. It started a few seconds late sometimes, or not at all.


I do record 24/7, it's just I also had rules for tripwire so I could isolate incidents easier.


I went back to motion detection to isolate events (again also still recording 24/7). It gives a few more false positives (like during strong wind, or if a neighbor turns on/off their lights), but that's ok.



Do you think the 5MP cameras offered better video both during the day, and at night, compared to your old cameras?



Didn't you also have a CCTV system, with the IP cameras, before? Isn't that also called a CCTV system?


I look forward to you following up after installation.


----------



## Timothy Wright

I'll try to give useful and intelligent answers to your questions. Tomorrow at 8 am the electrician is showing up, so I'll be playing fast and loose with verbs, "had" ~ system I will have for only a few more hours. "Have" ~ My new system after tomorrow morning.

I had a 16 camera coax system all ready, the wires are already pulled and in place. For a completely new system I assumed I would go with an IP system but after talking to a few professional installers and listening to their stories, coax systems are just simple and they work without a lot of configuration issues. One can get videos from a far greater distance over coax than over IP, although this is not a factor for my home on a modest double lot.

IP systems can pull much higher resolution at higher frame rates, so looking to the future one might assume IP is the way to go. As we speak the maximum frame rate over 5MP is 12fps, which is perfectly acceptable for my needs. Just a few years ago nobody anticipated the high MP coax cameras available today and in contrast to IP cameras, the installer makes only one trip and everything works the first time and forever. It is common for IP setups to require multiple visits to get the network set up, and keep the network working as intended. 

One can argue that 6MP and 8MP are simply wide aspect versions of 5MP and offer nothing over 5MP in terms of actual detail. 6MP and 8MP will however greatly decrease frame rates over coax, but not over IP. In my situation I accept less frame width and maintain the detail available in zoom with an acceptable frame rate. When I owned fewer cameras field of view was more important. 

I've read negative things about "Line Crossing" heuristics. That is a complex and unreliable way to accomplish something done much better and more reliably by simpler methods. In particular area based "Intrusion Detection" seems far more robust way to reliably accomplish very similar results. Intrusion Detection also plays well with motion detection areas, as it should the methodology is very similar. 

> I do record 24/7, it's just I also had rules for tripwire so I could isolate incidents easier.

I think that is what most smart folks are doing. Just substitute "Intrusion Detection" areas for "Line Crossing" as alarm event criteria and I think you will be very pleased with the results. 

I am limited to two 10TB hard drives, if I can avoid continuous recording and get reliable event recording I'd like to try it. I may get a 12 week history as opposed to a 5 week history?

> Do you think the 5MP cameras offered better video both during the day, and at night, compared to your old cameras?

What I have will be much better than what I had, maybe the better question is will 5MP night recordings be as good or superior to the 2MP night recordings they crow about at ipcamtalk? I don't honestly know yet. I don't expect to far off the pace.

I think you once mentioned ipcamtalk ? That community doesn't like anything > 2MP. At 2MP the frame rates are the same IP or coax. I suspect brand new large commercial installations are dominated by IP camera systems but the bulk of existing customers already have coax wire in place. If you can get the job done with existing wiring why pull new wires? I have the ability to add two IP cameras to my NVR. I will first try my system with 16 new cameras and see if I have any critical blind spots.

There is a huge ethical and moral difference between offering welcome advice and demanding submissive obedience from new guys. It is a issue of possessing healthy boundaries and exercising genuine respect for others. Their side businesses of pushing Blue Iris software, pushing grey market hardware and asking members to pay for suspect camera reviews demonstrates a conflict of interest and are a red flag that all is not as it appears. In my experience, my brief time at ipcamtalk was very cult like. They have a self serving agenda and were very pushy with it. In contrast if someone asks me what loudspeakers or PC motherboards I prefer I tell them, but what they do after asking my advise is a matter of complete indifference to me.

I've been around far too long to drink their cool-aid, thank-you.

> I look forward to you following up after installation.

As soon as I am able I will post a update.


----------



## Timothy Wright

Yesterday I had a camera mechanic, Larry, working at my home for 10 hours, I like the guy professionally very much. He replaced 12 of my 16 cameras, four cameras are fascia mounted under my rain gutters and lack the space for a 7" diameter dome camera. 

So four bullet cameras were sent as of last Friday and next Friday I'll get them mounted. Larry liked the fit and finish of my new cameras very much, they have a thin metal strap connecting the dome to the actual camera so when you are 20' up in the air balanced on a ladder you can't drop the dome to earth and scratch it.

The domes turret in toothed mechanism so maybe each horizontal adjustment maybe 5 or ten degree jumps? I can live with that. I liked the varifocal feature over all, point to correct center, adjust elevation and one can adjust field of view and focus from inside by remote PTZ. Those functions were both "in increments" and not infinitely variable. It ends up not being much of an actual limitation in the real world. The pluses out weigh the minuses.

I have a priority of image quality and honestly my first daylight impression was not all I hopped for. The NVR does auto detect the new cameras and changes most, not all, of the camera settings. I manually changed video quality = highest, bitrate = variable, Resolution = 2592x1944. It was when I changed "Max Bitrate Kbps" from 1024 to 10240 that got a ten times improvement in image quality. That setting took a day for me to find and change.

If I liked the night image at the lower bitrate I suspect I will love it all the more at 10 times higher the bitrate. I'll know more tonight. The EXIR worked as advertised, the night images, particularly the depth of field and lack of over bright near field is much improved. Distant objects, well beyond the range of the IR lamps are very recognizable. 

There is a learning curve to getting the most out of one's system. I'll get back to you when I know more and post some images.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> I'll try to give useful and intelligent answers to your questions. Tomorrow at 8 am the electrician is showing up, so I'll be playing fast and loose with verbs, "had" ~ system I will have for only a few more hours. "Have" ~ My new system after tomorrow morning.
> 
> I had a 16 camera coax system all ready, the wires are already pulled and in place. For a completely new system I assumed I would go with an IP system but after talking to a few professional installers and listening to their stories, coax systems are just simple and they work without a lot of configuration issues. One can get videos from a far greater distance over coax than over IP, although this is not a factor for my home on a modest double lot.
> 
> IP systems can pull much higher resolution at higher frame rates, so looking to the future one might assume IP is the way to go. As we speak the maximum frame rate over 5MP is 12fps, which is perfectly acceptable for my needs. Just a few years ago nobody anticipated the high MP coax cameras available today and in contrast to IP cameras, the installer makes only one trip and everything works the first time and forever. It is common for IP setups to require multiple visits to get the network set up, and keep the network working as intended.
> 
> One can argue that 6MP and 8MP are simply wide aspect versions of 5MP and offer nothing over 5MP in terms of actual detail. 6MP and 8MP will however greatly decrease frame rates over coax, but not over IP. In my situation I accept less frame width and maintain the detail available in zoom with an acceptable frame rate. When I owned fewer cameras field of view was more important.
> 
> I've read negative things about "Line Crossing" heuristics. That is a complex and unreliable way to accomplish something done much better and more reliably by simpler methods. In particular area based "Intrusion Detection" seems far more robust way to reliably accomplish very similar results. Intrusion Detection also plays well with motion detection areas, as it should the methodology is very similar.
> 
> > I do record 24/7, it's just I also had rules for tripwire so I could isolate incidents easier.
> 
> I think that is what most smart folks are doing. Just substitute "Intrusion Detection" areas for "Line Crossing" as alarm event criteria and I think you will be very pleased with the results.
> 
> I am limited to two 10TB hard drives, if I can avoid continuous recording and get reliable event recording I'd like to try it. I may get a 12 week history as opposed to a 5 week history?
> 
> > Do you think the 5MP cameras offered better video both during the day, and at night, compared to your old cameras?
> 
> What I have will be much better than what I had, maybe the better question is will 5MP night recordings be as good or superior to the 2MP night recordings they crow about at ipcamtalk? I don't honestly know yet. I don't expect to far off the pace.
> 
> I think you once mentioned ipcamtalk ? That community doesn't like anything > 2MP. At 2MP the frame rates are the same IP or coax. I suspect brand new large commercial installations are dominated by IP camera systems but the bulk of existing customers already have coax wire in place. If you can get the job done with existing wiring why pull new wires? I have the ability to add two IP cameras to my NVR. I will first try my system with 16 new cameras and see if I have any critical blind spots.
> 
> There is a huge ethical and moral difference between offering welcome advice and demanding submissive obedience from new guys. It is a issue of possessing healthy boundaries and exercising genuine respect for others. Their side businesses of pushing Blue Iris software, pushing grey market hardware and asking members to pay for suspect camera reviews demonstrates a conflict of interest and are a red flag that all is not as it appears. In my experience, my brief time at ipcamtalk was very cult like. They have a self serving agenda and were very pushy with it. In contrast if someone asks me what loudspeakers or PC motherboards I prefer I tell them, but what they do after asking my advise is a matter of complete indifference to me.
> 
> I've been around far too long to drink their cool-aid, thank-you.
> 
> > I look forward to you following up after installation.
> 
> As soon as I am able I will post a update.



Yes, in the same section of the NVR settings where I saw line crossing, I also saw intrusion detection.


Thanks for your recommendation to try it. I will probably try it one day when I have several hours to change the settings and test it out.


I ended up going with a 8 TB hard drive. With 7 cameras recording 24/7, and the garage one on motion only, and with variable bit and H.265 compression, I was able to get 90 days of recording (give or take 1 day, depending on how you count the last day). That also included about 1.5 weeks where I was using constant bitrate at the beginning, and saw that it was taking much more space than I had anticipated using online storage calculators. VBR took about 1/2 the space of constant bitrate for my setup.


I have my cameras at 15 fps.


If your cameras aren't IP cameras, can you still view them remotely, on a remote network?


Or, if all that is needed is for the NVR to be on the network, then can you still view them remotely?


Since they are variable lens, can you adjust the zoom through the NVR settings, like an IP camera?


I also got variable lens cameras. I made adjustments on 3 of the cameras. As you said, it does it in small increments.



I don't know if I mentioned ipcamtalk before, but I did also use them as a resource.


Many on there suggested Blue Iris. I decided it wasn't for me. I liked the cleaner physical setup of a NVR, and I feel it's simpler. I did get a NVR with PoE switches built in, and I now realize it's louder than I expected. But I accepted it and got used to it. I think it makes for a better physical setup than having a separate PoE switch.


Can you also post a picture of a camera (from the same location) from your old system, and new system, for both day and night)? So let's say Camera 2 old, at night, and camera 2 new, at night. And then the same for daytime. It would make for a helpful comparison.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> Yesterday I had a camera mechanic, Larry, working at my home for 10 hours, I like the guy professionally very much. He replaced 12 of my 16 cameras, four cameras are fascia mounted under my rain gutters and lack the space for a 7" diameter dome camera.
> 
> So four bullet cameras were sent as of last Friday and next Friday I'll get them mounted. Larry liked the fit and finish of my new cameras very much, they have a thin metal strap connecting the dome to the actual camera so when you are 20' up in the air balanced on a ladder you can't drop the dome to earth and scratch it.
> 
> The domes turret in toothed mechanism so maybe each horizontal adjustment maybe 5 or ten degree jumps? I can live with that. I liked the varifocal feature over all, point to correct center, adjust elevation and one can adjust field of view and focus from inside by remote PTZ. Those functions were both "in increments" and not infinitely variable. It ends up not being much of an actual limitation in the real world. The pluses out weigh the minuses.
> 
> I have a priority of image quality and honestly my first daylight impression was not all I hopped for. The NVR does auto detect the new cameras and changes most, not all, of the camera settings. I manually changed video quality = highest, bitrate = variable, Resolution = 2592x1944. It was when I changed "Max Bitrate Kbps" from 1024 to 10240 that got a ten times improvement in image quality. That setting took a day for me to find and change.
> 
> If I liked the night image at the lower bitrate I suspect I will love it all the more at 10 times higher the bitrate. I'll know more tonight. The EXIR worked as advertised, the night images, particularly the depth of field and lack of over bright near field is much improved. Distant objects, well beyond the range of the IR lamps are very recognizable.
> 
> There is a learning curve to getting the most out of one's system. I'll get back to you when I know more and post some images.



Great. Can you also post a picture, or a link to a picture of one of your cameras look like? They are dome-turrets?


Also, if Sony makes the Starvis sensor, why don't they make the whole camera?


What do the acronyms EXR and EXIR exactly stand for? It has something to do with the sensor, but I've never been able to figure out the exact acronyms.


----------



## nuraman00

Do your new cameras offer 2 way talkback ability?


This is something I think I can do with mine, but I haven't been able to figure out exactly what I need or how to set it up. It's not as big of a priority though.


----------



## Timothy Wright

https://www.cctv-hd-systems.co.uk/Hd-cctv%20Blog/14_EXIR-Enhanced-Infra-red-Lighting-Explained.html

https://www.use-ip.co.uk/forum/threads/faq-what-is-an-exir-camera.708/

> Do your new cameras offer 2 way talkback ability?

"Up the Coax (UTC) technology enables you to control the camera’s zoom levels and onscreen display (OSD) from your web browser, digital video recorder interface such as the Central Management System or smart phone app."

With UTC I can zoom in or out, adjust focus from inside or using a smart phone.

If my cameras were PTZ I could do pan and tilt as well.


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## Timothy Wright

I never considered this subject until I purchased 5MP cameras. For the basis of a discussion, assume one is watching 4x4 cameras, 16 camera view on a 4k display. 

With 980H cameras each of those 16 boxes will still have as many pixels as the original feed from the camera. (more or less)

With 1080P cameras to squeeze 16 times (1920x1080) on the same 4k monitor the app discards 75% of the pixels.

With 5MP cameras the viewing app discards 90% of the pixels. 

Now by using a 2x2 view and paging, or pulling up only one camera at a time the view one can greatly improve the detail with 5MP cameras in a way totally unnecessary with my old 980H cameras. 

I mention this because width all my old 4k 4x4 screen captures one up view was no better than 4x4, bigger yes, better no. But if I post a 4x4 of all my new cameras I will be discarding 90% of the detail. 

I am posting a new 4x4 screen capture with the stated caveat, cameras 05, 06, 08, 09 have not yet been replaced. I still think the difference is "day and night" if I may abuse the phrase.

> Great. Can you also post a picture, or a link to a picture of one of your cameras look like? They are dome-turrets?

No turret, one hidden, 4 bullet, 11 dome. 

BTW to make the screen captures small enough to upload all were saved with 75% compression. 

To the naked eye outside is very dark, one can see lights in the distance but they provide no help in seeing what is going on. My porch is is entirely unlit outside of the EXIR.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> I never considered this subject until I purchased 5MP cameras. For the basis of a discussion, assume one is watching 4x4 cameras, 16 camera view on a 4k display.
> 
> With 980H cameras each of those 16 boxes will still have as many pixels as the original feed from the camera. (more or less)
> 
> With 1080P cameras to squeeze 16 times (1920x1080) on the same 4k monitor the app discards 75% of the pixels.
> 
> With 5MP cameras the viewing app discards 90% of the pixels.
> 
> Now by using a 2x2 view and paging, or pulling up only one camera at a time the view one can greatly improve the detail with 5MP cameras in a way totally unnecessary with my old 980H cameras.
> 
> I mention this because width all my old 4k 4x4 screen captures one up view was no better than 4x4, bigger yes, better no. But if I post a 4x4 of all my new cameras I will be discarding 90% of the detail.
> 
> I am posting a new 4x4 screen capture with the stated caveat, cameras 05, 06, 08, 09 have not yet been replaced. I still think the difference is "day and night" if I may abuse the phrase.
> 
> > Great. Can you also post a picture, or a link to a picture of one of your cameras look like? They are dome-turrets?
> 
> No turret, one hidden, 4 bullet, 11 dome.
> 
> BTW to make the screen captures small enough to upload all were saved with 75% compression.
> 
> To the naked eye outside is very dark, one can see lights in the distance but they provide no help in seeing what is going on. My porch is is entirely unlit outside of the EXIR.



Thanks for the pictures.


Is it raining in your pictures? Cameras 5, 6, and 8 don't look that good, from your old cameras.


I agree cameras 1 - 4 look good.


You also made me realize that the next time it's raining somewhat heavy, I should look at my cameras to see what they look like when it's raining.


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## Timothy Wright

No rain, just old cameras. 

Alleluia is a 80 lb black lab puppy. I let him out last night, and left the flood lights off. On the new cameras I could watch his every move, on the old cameras he was near invisible. New camera "06 lilies" shows where he has been trying to dig under the fence at a flower bed and escape. I don't need a $1,000 purebred lab on the loose at 3am in my neighborhood so this week I'll find a better way to patch the hole.

Interestingly the (2) 300w flood lights don't help the new cameras they just throw a bad glare.


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## Nobr8ks

Timothy Wright said:


> No rain, just old cameras.
> 
> Interestingly the (2) 300w flood lights don't help the new cameras they just throw a bad glare.



Use red lights.


My Swann NVR has triggers (Alarm connections) that control red lights once they since (Within grid) motion.


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## Timothy Wright

I don't think I'll need lights at all with the new cameras.


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## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> No rain, just old cameras.
> 
> Alleluia is a 80 lb black lab puppy. I let him out last night, and left the flood lights off. On the new cameras I could watch his every move, on the old cameras he was near invisible. New camera "06 lilies" shows where he has been trying to dig under the fence at a flower bed and escape. I don't need a $1,000 purebred lab on the loose at 3am in my neighborhood so this week I'll find a better way to patch the hole.
> 
> Interestingly the (2) 300w flood lights don't help the new cameras they just throw a bad glare.


Nice to know you can watch the dogs without needing to turn on more lights.

Also, I remember now that I did try the intrusion detection. I had formed a box, and set bi-direction triggers for both things entering the boxed area, and things leaving.

As I mentioned, it wasn't as reliable as I wanted. Maybe I needed to adjust things more, but after already having spent a few hours, I decided I felt more comfortable with motion detection instead of intrusion.

Are your cameras 9 - 12 new too, in the screen shot from a few days ago?

And does your system have 2 way talkback?

Also, what provides power to the cameras? Is it the R59 coax cable itself, similar to how IP cameras can be powered by the Ethernet cable?


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## Timothy Wright

Not much difference between motion detection and intrusion detection except I run motion detection on every camera and intrusion detection is only supported on two cameras with coax cameras.

Camera 09 Azaleas is old. Cameras 10-16 inclusive are all new.

Lawd willin' the four new bullet cameras will be here tomorrow and if all goes well may be installed Thursday as opposed to Friday. I am excited about that. 

A spool of coax cctv wire is siamesed with a pair of 12 leads that supply power. On the wall next to the shelf where the NVR lives is a power distribution box, with terminals and a transformer to power maybe 48 cameras? So the coax mounts to the back of the NVR but all the power leads run to the power distribution box. 

> And does your system have 2 way talkback?

All my cameras are varifocal, Alibi calls it UTC, or up-the-cable. I can adjust zoom and focus on any camera from my desktop. I highly value that feature. None of my cameras have audio if that is what you mean?


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> > And does your system have 2 way talkback?
> 
> All my cameras are varifocal, Alibi calls it UTC, or up-the-cable. I can adjust zoom and focus on any camera from my desktop. I highly value that feature. None of my cameras have audio if that is what you mean?


Yeah, I meant 2-way audio. But now you just said your cameras don't have audio.

My cameras have audio. After the cameras were installed, I was glad I went with the audio version, as it helps hearing things sometimes. 

I can also say from the incident that happened in 2017 (when I was awake and heard things), that having the audio can help the case even more. (I didn't have cameras then).

It seems that it's also possible for me to have 2-way audio, where I can say something remotely and have it transmitted out across the cameras. But I haven't exactly figured out how, and it's not a high priority for me.

Also, seeing camera 9 vs. the others also confirmed that your new cameras are better.


----------



## Timothy Wright

Larry the camera guy came one day early because the cameras were here and he was nice enough to fit me in. To see the new cameras at their best I had to make a few adjustments. View one up at a time, select stream 1 which is raw camera feed and set Max Bitrate from each camera to 10240 kbps. I am very pleased with the result. 

04 front door, I wish I could read the license plate but the car is moving too quickly, one can easily read the Bus Stop sign. Camera is 50' from the property line, road and right a way is 40' wide, on a 45 degree angle the Bus stop sign is maybe 130-150 feet away.

03 Driveway, I can make out every vertical of the thin iron fence 100' away, I wish I could read the license plate, but I can't. Car must be about 140' away. 

05 Lilies, fifteen years ago I had a problem with folks standing on the porch throwing half bricks at my service dog. I haven't had any problems since then. If I did I'd zoom a camera in on each porch to catch faces. I can see the detail on their rear porch railing 80' away.

4x4 daylight new cameras, this shot can't show the detail but in general I am very pleased, all 16 cameras are new 5 MP. 

I'll post some night shots later tonight.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> Larry the camera guy came one day early because the cameras were here and he was nice enough to fit me in. To see the new cameras at their best I had to make a few adjustments. View one up at a time, select stream 1 which is raw camera feed and set Max Bitrate from each camera to 10240 kbps. I am very pleased with the result.
> 
> 04 front door, I wish I could read the license plate but the car is moving too quickly, one can easily read the Bus Stop sign. Camera is 50' from the property line, road and right a way is 40' wide, on a 45 degree angle the Bus stop sign is maybe 130-150 feet away.
> 
> 03 Driveway, I can make out every vertical of the thin iron fence 100' away, I wish I could read the license plate, but I can't. Car must be about 140' away.
> 
> 05 Lilies, fifteen years ago I had a problem with folks standing on the porch throwing half bricks at my service dog. I haven't had any problems since then. If I did I'd zoom a camera in on each porch to catch faces. I can see the detail on their rear porch railing 80' away.
> 
> 4x4 daylight new cameras, this shot can't show the detail but in general I am very pleased, all 16 cameras are new 5 MP.
> 
> I'll post some night shots later tonight.


Looks good. 

For the multi camera pic, for some reason camera 13 looks dark.

Other than that, they all look good.

I had considered cameras which were supposed to be better at license plate recognition. I think they pan and auto zoom when they sense a car.

But I still thought that it wouldn't work as good in the real world in my case, because there are also bushes in the neighborhood that could obstruct the view. 

And doing it for every car that entered or left the area would be too much.

I can identify the make/model, and possibly get a partial license late, depending on how the car goes, so that should be a good start.

Looking forward to your night shots.


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## Timothy Wright

Camera 13 is a hidden pinhole camera in the Foyer that has no IR. I assume if I open the door I'll have the lights on in the foyer. 

Camera 08 Tomato Patch is also a problem at night. I wanted to catch the yard in the foreground so none of the hedges in the distance are illuminated by IR. I need to re-aim the camera of install a supplemental IR spotlight.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> Camera 13 is a hidden pinhole camera in the Foyer that has no IR. I assume if I open the door I'll have the lights on in the foyer.
> 
> Camera 08 Tomato Patch is also a problem at night. I wanted to catch the yard in the foreground so none of the hedges in the distance are illuminated by IR. I need to re-aim the camera of install a supplemental IR spotlight.


Will be interesting to see how camera 08 looks, when you post a nighttime picture.

Any estimate as to how much storage space per day your old cameras took, vs. your new ones?

Can you also re-post your bitrate settings (if they're the same for all cameras)?

And you're doing 12 fps, with H.265, correct?


----------



## nuraman00

Also, nice to see you list some other devices in your signature.

If/when I get more serious about some of them (as in I'm ready to research and buy), I will tag you or PM you with a link to a thread, so I can get your input too.


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## Timothy Wright

> And you're doing 12 fps, with H.265, correct?

yes

*Camera Settings*
Outdoor= Outdoor
Indoor= Indoor
Front End Resolution= 5MP20
every camera = 2592x1944
Video Quality = Highest
Frame Rate = 12
Max Bit Rate = 10240
Encoding = H.265 (without the plus)

My 4 front cameras record continuously.

all other cameras record only on motion. I have a fenced in yard so not much goes on in my yard.

I had 9314 GB on disk one on 1/10/19, six days ago.
Now I have 6599 GB so that comes to 2715 GB over roughly 6 days

that comes to about 450GB/day so 18.628 TB should last about 41 days 

08 Tomato patch image posted per request.

Old cameras were about 1MP recording on 10TB which lasted almost 90 days.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> > And you're doing 12 fps, with H.265, correct?
> 
> yes
> 
> *Camera Settings*
> Outdoor= Outdoor
> Indoor= Indoor
> Front End Resolution= 5MP20
> every camera = 2592x1944
> Video Quality = Highest
> Frame Rate = 12
> Max Bit Rate = 10240
> Encoding = H.265 (without the plus)
> 
> My 4 front cameras record continuously.
> 
> all other cameras record only on motion. I have a fenced in yard so not much goes on in my yard.
> 
> I had 9314 GB on disk one on 1/10/19, six days ago.
> Now I have 6599 GB so that comes to 2715 GB over roughly 6 days
> 
> that comes to about 450GB/day so 18.628 TB should last about 41 days
> 
> 08 Tomato patch image posted per request.
> 
> Old cameras were about 1MP recording on 10TB which lasted almost 90 days.


I see what you mean about the tomato patch at night. It's not the greatest as-is, but it still gets most of the middle. I think you'd still get adequate light near a house opening (door/window).

However, if you want good visibility at night for the tomato patch itself, then agree, an additional IR would be good.

So it seems that if you had the same camera fps and bitrate on your old cameras, they used about 111 GB/day. Probably a little more once actual usable space is accounted for.

So at 5x the MP, it uses less than 5x the space.

I'll calculate how much space my cameras take, this weekend. When I checked in mid December, I saw it was 90 days, give or take the last day. But that included about 1.5 weeks where I wasn't using variable bitrate. After that, I switched to variable bitrate. So when I calculate now, I should get more than 90 days. I have 7 cameras continuous, 1 motion, at 15 fps.

8 TB hard drive, with about 7.27 usable. 

If you can, can you post some night shots from a few other cameras?


----------



## Timothy Wright

In general I a OK with most of the night views. On Camera 08 the camera is nose down because why record the sky, as a result the far end with the fence is too dark. I found the best place to buy IR illuminators on the internet. B&H Photo has them all.

Enclosed 4 night shots.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> In general I a OK with most of the night views. On Camera 08 the camera is nose down because why record the sky, as a result the far end with the fence is too dark. I found the best place to buy IR illuminators on the internet. B&H Photo has them all.
> 
> Enclosed 4 night shots.



Thanks for the night pictures.

Can you post a link to your IR illuminator?


I've been using BH Photo Video since 2015. I always check if they have what I'm looking for. I haven't had a problem with them yet.



Also, I calculated today how many days of storage I get, now that all recorded days are at variable bitrate.


8x 2MP cameras

Bitrate: 2048
Framerate: 15 fps
H.265 compression
Audio included
7 cameras 24/7, 1garage camera motion only
7.27 TB actual capacity



I get 101 full days, and the last 6 hours of an additional oldest day, and the first 10 hours of today (which is when I checked).


So about 101 and 2/3 days.


----------



## Timothy Wright

> Can you post a link to your IR illuminator?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1395713-REG/axton_at_11s_11s2890_smart_series_at_11s_infrared.html for $280

or https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1078384-REG/iluminar_irc99_a60_24_60o_99_30m_850nm.html for $62

I haven't decided which I will purchase.

RE: So about 101 and 2/3 days.

That should be more than enough time.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> > Can you post a link to your IR illuminator?
> 
> https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...11s_11s2890_smart_series_at_11s_infrared.html for $280
> 
> or https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1078384-REG/iluminar_irc99_a60_24_60o_99_30m_850nm.html for $62
> 
> I haven't decided which I will purchase.



Thanks. When you decide and install it, can you post a picture of your setup for that illuminator?


----------



## Timothy Wright

> Thanks. When you decide and install it, can you post a picture of your setup for that illuminator?

I'll be happy to do that, at this time I am tending toward the less expensive unit. I want to talk it over with my installer, and arrange installation before I purchase either.

In a related topic:

I visited ipcamtalk which is a CCTV forum and found my visit very trying. Everything I needed before installation was purchased and received. I got a tirade of very bitter and angry letters demanding that I return my purchases and buy what they recommended from their grey source, (No warranty or support). When I politely declined they went on a war party. I deleted all my postings and decided to just lay low. Another forum member wrote me a private note and we had a very amicable exchange that went of for weeks. In his last letter he said he was going call out some folks for being very rude.

I got a notification of out private thread was updated but before I could check it out it was deleted. The good news is that if one has an interest in CCTV security, that is all they talk about. Maybe go their read and lurk. I would not post there or take any of their advice too seriously.


----------



## swealp

Timothy Wright said:


> > I visited ipcamtalk which is a CCTV forum and found my visit very trying.....When I politely declined they went on a war party...... I would not post there or take any of their advice too seriously.


Wow, I can just confirm this!
That forum is a joke, dont register.



I dont know if it is OK that i write here, or should i start a new thread? Please let me know.



I gladly take advices for ip cameras with these requirments:

-Good low light vision.
-Wired PoE
Budget 100-200USD.

I will buy about 5-6 cameras and also choose a NVR. 



It seems like Dahua Starlight (2MP not 4MP+) is the best choice for my budget.
Hikvision Darkfighter is also a advice i got.
I have read ubiquiti is out of date, i dont know if any of this are true because i have not seen any reviews that has both of this cameras.

Thank you for help!


----------



## Timothy Wright

An update, I got my very expensive IR illuminator installed during the day and my CCTV folks need to come back during night hours and aim it. 

I am still tweaking my cameras for best quality. One recent suggestion that worked out well for me: Back the "sharpening" camera setting all the way off. Now I can read license plates and see faces at much greater distance.

> I don't know if it is OK that i write here, or should i start a new thread? Please let me know.

You are most welcome to post here in this thread. Why start a new thread on the same topic?

I have no experience with IP cameras, but I purchased my NVR and cameras from Alibi Security (re branded HKvision) and I am very happy. Had I not had coax pulled for 16 cameras I would have gone the IP route. Many advanced features are only available on IP NVRs. 

16 cameras and one NVR cost me about $2,000. Installation another $1,000, Purple hard drives another $1,000.

I have enough drive space that I keep about a 54 day history with two 10TB drives.


----------



## nuraman00

swealp said:


> Wow, I can just confirm this!
> That forum is a joke, dont register.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know if it is OK that i write here, or should i start a new thread? Please let me know.
> 
> 
> 
> I gladly take advices for ip cameras with these requirments:
> 
> -Good low light vision.
> -Wired PoE
> Budget 100-200USD.
> 
> I will buy about 5-6 cameras and also choose a NVR.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like Dahua Starlight (2MP not 4MP+) is the best choice for my budget.
> Hikvision Darkfighter is also a advice i got.
> I have read ubiquiti is out of date, i dont know if any of this are true because i have not seen any reviews that has both of this cameras.
> 
> Thank you for help!



Posting in this thread is fine.


I went with the Dahua Starlight 2MP Varifocals.


You can read about my final equipment, in this post:


*post #125* of 156 




But, there are other good solutions too. I can't speak for them personally, but I do think if you research them (watch sample videos, etc.), you'll see that there's others that are just as good.


I like Timothy Wright's cameras too, for example. They are a higher MP, but based on the images he's posted, I'd trust a lower MP one too.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> An update, I got my very expensive IR illuminator installed during the day and my CCTV folks need to come back during night hours and aim it.
> 
> I am still tweaking my cameras for best quality. One recent suggestion that worked out well for me: Back the "sharpening" camera setting all the way off. Now I can read license plates and see faces at much greater distance.
> 
> > I don't know if it is OK that i write here, or should i start a new thread? Please let me know.
> 
> You are most welcome to post here in this thread. Why start a new thread on the same topic?
> 
> I have no experience with IP cameras, but I purchased my NVR and cameras from Alibi Security (re branded HKvision) and I am very happy. Had I not had coax pulled for 16 cameras I would have gone the IP route. Many advanced features are only available on IP NVRs.
> 
> 16 cameras and one NVR cost me about $2,000. Installation another $1,000, Purple hard drives another $1,000.
> 
> I have enough drive space that I keep about a 54 day history with two 10TB drives.



Can you post before sharpening and after sharpening comparison images?


----------



## Timothy Wright

> Can you post before sharpening and after sharpening comparison images?

Look at the blue BUS STOP sign across the street.

Image is 5MP, using camera stream no jpg compression.

H.265 encoding

H.265+ set to OFF


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> > Can you post before sharpening and after sharpening comparison images?
> 
> Look at the blue BUS STOP sign across the street.
> 
> Image is 5MP, using camera stream no jpg compression.
> 
> H.265 encoding
> 
> H.265+ set to OFF


The picture appears smoother after turning off sharpening (the 2nd pic). Sharpening seemed to add different shades of color in some pixels, when it wasn't necessary.

At least, that's how I'd describe the difference.

How would you describe the difference?


----------



## Richard Thompson

If I had a time machine I would go back and buy WingHome trail cameras because I have had one that has been in the woods everyday since 2017, that is the bee's knees!

When it is off-season, I put it up around my yard, it also can work as a home surveillance. So I hope it will help me to catch thief with trail camera if there is.

All in all, relatively low price, super high quality!


----------



## Timothy Wright

Richard Thomson> If I had a time machine I would go back and buy WingHome trail cameras because ....

I turn on my PC and watch 16 cameras on my PC via network. I can search for events using a remote interface. If I owned 60 acres I might use trail cameras or wireless cameras. If I owned zero cameras and needed something for a week, I might put a trail camera in a window. Otherwise I suspect most homeowners are best served by a network of CCTV cameras.


----------



## Timothy Wright

This winter I replaced (16) 960H cameras with (16) 5MP cameras and I had a few problems and I hope by elaborating I can save others some grief.

I replaced the NVR when I updated the cameras. I had a 18 camera power distribution box that was less than 3 years old so why change it?

The math looks like this, each old camera pulled about 1/4 amp. Each new camera pulls .8 amp plus half amp for the IR illuminators. I turned off all 16 cameras to replace my NVR and when I turned on all 16 cameras on the same master switched it toasted my old power distribution box. 

It seems that 18 camera power distribution boxes are rated 12 amp, 20 amp, or 29-30 amp and I need the most powerful available. All these boxes are made in China but I did find one UL Listed; unless they lied?

InstallerCCTV 18 Output 29 Amp 12V DC CCTV Distributed Power Supply Box for Security Camera

It was not obvious to me that upgrading my cameras would require an power distribution box. This will cost me $76 plus labor. Maybe reasonable cost wise?

Other than that I pulled a Cat 6 wire (in the walls) between the NVR and router that my 90# black Lab puppy ate, along with several HDMI cables. That was helpful.

My non branded Alibi 4100 NVR lasted 2 months. It started booting 19 times an hour. Super Circuits sent me a free replacement. 

The useful conclusion I would like share is this, if you upgrade your cameras you may want to replace your power distribution at the same time. Don't do it on the cheap. I am told one can damage their cameras.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> This winter I replaced (16) 960H cameras with (16) 5MP cameras and I had a few problems and I hope by elaborating I can save others some grief.
> 
> I replaced the NVR when I updated the cameras. I had a 18 camera power distribution box that was less than 3 years old so why change it?
> 
> The math looks like this, each old camera pulled about 1/4 amp. Each new camera pulls .8 amp plus half amp for the IR illuminators. I turned off all 16 cameras to replace my NVR and when I turned on all 16 cameras on the same master switched it toasted my old power distribution box.
> 
> It seems that 18 camera power distribution boxes are rated 12 amp, 20 amp, or 29-30 amp and I need the most powerful available. All these boxes are made in China but I did find one UL Listed; unless they lied?
> 
> InstallerCCTV 18 Output 29 Amp 12V DC CCTV Distributed Power Supply Box for Security Camera
> 
> It was not obvious to me that upgrading my cameras would require an power distribution box. This will cost me $76 plus labor. Maybe reasonable cost wise?
> 
> Other than that I pulled a Cat 6 wire (in the walls) between the NVR and router that my 90# black Lab puppy ate, along with several HDMI cables. That was helpful.
> 
> My non branded Alibi 4100 NVR lasted 2 months. It started booting 19 times an hour. Super Circuits sent me a free replacement.
> 
> The useful conclusion I would like share is this, if you upgrade your cameras you may want to replace your power distribution at the same time. Don't do it on the cheap. I am told one can damage their cameras.



Thanks.


Did you have a Power Distribution Box before?


----------



## Timothy Wright

For 4 cameras or more I assume everyone has a power distribution box. 

Yes this will be my 3rd or 4th distribution box. As I added more cameras and those cameras each require more amps than the cameras they replaced.


----------



## nuraman00

I don't think I had a power distribution box.


Your cameras aren't power over Ethernet, right? Maybe I didn't need them because mine were?


----------



## Timothy Wright

My speakers are not POE. Put even POE speakers need power from somewhere. If neither your NVR or switch is POE, then you can buy a special switch that is POE.


----------



## nuraman00

Timothy Wright said:


> My speakers are not POE. Put even POE speakers need power from somewhere. If neither your NVR or switch is POE, then you can buy a special switch that is POE.



That makes sense. My NVR has a built-in POE switch. That's one of the reasons I chose that, for its simplicity in connecting everything.


I guess that's why I don't need a power distribution box.


----------



## Richard Thompson

Richard Thompson said:


> If I had a time machine I would go back and buy WingHome trail cameras because I have had one that has been in the woods everyday since 2017, that is the bee's knees!
> 
> When it is off-season, I put it up around my yard, it also can work as a home surveillance. So I hope it will help me to catch thief with trail camera if there is.
> 
> All in all, relatively low price, super high quality!


Here is the photo provided by my WingHome trail camera.


----------



## nuraman00

Richard Thompson said:


> Here is the photo provided by my WingHome trail camera.



Pretty good overall. I wish it detailed the car better. Even though it's a black and white picture, I can't come close to determining what color it could be, or whether it's a dark or light color.


----------



## studio3d

Seems current wireless cameras are pretty good, but the only ones I can find have ethernet as well as power connectors. I don't understand the need for ethernet, and the big ends make wiring through walls a bigger problem. Thoughts? (thanks)


----------



## socalsharky

studio3d said:


> Seems current wireless cameras are pretty good, but the only ones I can find have ethernet as well as power connectors. I don't understand the need for ethernet, and the big ends make wiring through walls a bigger problem. Thoughts? (thanks)



Wired cameras are almost always better than wireless, in terms of image quality and achievable frame rates. Wireless are almost always easier to install. If you are using wireless, then simply don't connect the Ethernet cable, since the camera won't need it. You will, however, need to get power to any camera, either by battery, power adapter, or power over Ethernet (PoE).


----------



## nuraman00

studio3d said:


> Seems current wireless cameras are pretty good, but the only ones I can find have ethernet as well as power connectors. I don't understand the need for ethernet, and the big ends make wiring through walls a bigger problem. Thoughts? (thanks)



The cameras that I had installed in 2018 were PoE cameras, powered over Ethernet. So they didn't need an external power connector.


Dahua cameras, with their Starlight models, was the brand I used.


For my Mom, we agreed to an estimate for Speco cameras. They are also PoE cameras. They don't have a built-in microphone, so the installer is installing a 3rd party microphone.


The Dahua cameras had a built-in microphone.



Based on reviews I had read, wireless cameras were not as reliable with connectivity, and some people also said it was harder to configure for viewing on a TV or PC.


Both my system and my Mom's system has a physical NVR. 



If you are looking for cloud storage, then maybe you don't have the same concerns as I did with the way a physical NVR system works, and making it easier for remote viewing.


Wireless cameras are probably pretty good, but I don't want to take a chance on connectivity.


Also, some of the wireless ones are battery powered, and that maintenance of changing batteries is not something I want.


Speco also had demos on their website for a lot of different models, so that helped convince me of the quality and reliability. Haven't had the installation yet, but so far it seems like it will be good.


What are your thoughts, based on what you've researched? Are you looking for a physical NVR, or cloud based storage?


Are you looking for 24/7 recording, or something else?


----------



## studio3d

nuraman00 said:


> The cameras that I had installed in 2018 were PoE cameras, powered over Ethernet. So they didn't need an external power connector.
> 
> 
> Dahua cameras, with their Starlight models, was the brand I used.
> 
> 
> For my Mom, we agreed to an estimate for Speco cameras. They are also PoE cameras. They don't have a built-in microphone, so the installer is installing a 3rd party microphone.
> 
> 
> The Dahua cameras had a built-in microphone.
> 
> 
> 
> Based on reviews I had read, wireless cameras were not as reliable with connectivity, and some people also said it was harder to configure for viewing on a TV or PC.
> 
> 
> Both my system and my Mom's system has a physical NVR.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are looking for cloud storage, then maybe you don't have the same concerns as I did with the way a physical NVR system works, and making it easier for remote viewing.
> 
> 
> Wireless cameras are probably pretty good, but I don't want to take a chance on connectivity.
> 
> 
> Also, some of the wireless ones are battery powered, and that maintenance of changing batteries is not something I want.
> 
> 
> Speco also had demos on their website for a lot of different models, so that helped convince me of the quality and reliability. Haven't had the installation yet, but so far it seems like it will be good.
> 
> 
> What are your thoughts, based on what you've researched? Are you looking for a physical NVR, or cloud based storage?
> 
> 
> Are you looking for 24/7 recording, or something else?


I was hoping to avoid ethernet cable, and use only 12V power which can be found all over our very large building (church). To run ethernet would be way too much hassle...


----------



## nuraman00

I see. For residences, most of the wiring for Ethernet is done through the attic, and not much is visible inside. It goes through the wall until it reaches the NVR.


Some might be visible outside, depending on the exact camera installation.



For your case, maybe you can meet with an installer and share your concerns, and they can give recommendations.


Would your cameras be both inside and outside?


----------



## studio3d

nuraman00 said:


> I see. For residences, most of the wiring for Ethernet is done through the attic, and not much is visible inside. It goes through the wall until it reaches the NVR.
> 
> 
> Some might be visible outside, depending on the exact camera installation.
> 
> 
> 
> For your case, maybe you can meet with an installer and share your concerns, and they can give recommendations.
> 
> 
> Would your cameras be both inside and outside?


cameras would be outside. wiring would be a nightmare, other than 12v power.


----------



## nuraman00

With wireless cameras, would you use an installer, or install and mount them yourself?


----------



## studio3d

nuraman00 said:


> With wireless cameras, would you use an installer, or install and mount them yourself?


Mount myself... which is why I'm looking for simplest wiring situation.


----------



## nuraman00

studio3d said:


> Mount myself... which is why I'm looking for simplest wiring situation.



Great. That sounds like the best solution for you then.


What wireless brands and models have you liked?


----------



## studio3d

nuraman00 said:


> Great. That sounds like the best solution for you then.
> 
> 
> What wireless brands and models have you liked?


The systems look pretty similar (1080p 12v wireless cameras, 1-2 tb HD NVR) My main issue was finding cameras that only needed power (therefore a single cable connector). They all seem to have 2 or 3.


----------



## nuraman00

Can you post a link to one? So I can look more closely at it.


----------



## function12

studio3d said:


> The systems look pretty similar (1080p 12v wireless cameras, 1-2 tb HD NVR) My main issue was finding cameras that only needed power (therefore a single cable connector). They all seem to have 2 or 3.


POE cameras only need one wire. All you would need is a patch cord in what ever length you need. www.nellyssecurity.com has some good deals and Great customer support. Their system come will 100' patch cords included.


----------



## studio3d

So... again, I was trying to avoid patching all the cameras into a NVR. Hoping for a 12v powered wireless system. Got to be one out there~!?


----------



## zeuspaul

I just found this thread...after I started purchasing my cameras I will add my experience for those wanting a basic camera system.


All I wanted was a camera to monitor my front door. I settled on a popular brand of camera and then started reading Amazon reviews. About half way through a long list of reviews some said just get a Hikvision or a ? So I checked into Hikvision and found it is the largest manufacturer of security cameras in the world (according to them). I checked Costco and two of their popular brands are Swann and Lorex. It turns out those brands are rebranded Hikvision cameras (maybe I am wrong). So I checked Amazon and not much on Hikvision there. I found a good selection of Hikvision stuff at B&H Photo. A lot of their Hikvision is drop shipped from the manufacturer. I saw little or no reviews of Hikvision at B&H or Amazon.


I settled on Hikvision. I wanted to keep it simple as I am doing this myself. I am comfortable with 1080P. I have an available 1080P monitor. I set the B&H filters for 1080P/2MP and TVI which is HD analogue. It requires a double cable (power and signal). I kept the components the same manufacturer because I was guessing there would be fewer compatibility issues.


I purchased a Turbo HD 8-channel HD-TVI DVR. I don't want or need remote access. The simpler I keep this the better for me. I guessed I might find a spot for three or four cameras so I bought 8 channels just in case. It was only about $50 more than 4 channels. I bought the 2 TB hard drive separately because it was cheaper that way.


I bought a single 3.6 MM 82 degree field of view camera and the power supply and cable. I installed the camera on a post. When I connected the cables and turned every thing on I saw an image on the monitor!! Configuring everything was a little more tricky, It seems these things are designed for people who know what they are doing. The manual is somewhat well written but it covers too many systems at once. The best source of info for me turned out to be You Tube.


This set up exceeds all of my expectations. The image quality is very good and I am impressed with the night vision. I tried 24/7 recording until I discovered VCA (Video Content Analysis) The recording activation based on _Line Crossing_ and _Intrusion_ are just what I need. These are the two functions available in the camera I purchased. Motion detect created too many false positives. Once I got the hang of configuring all of the various things these two functions worked with very few false positives.


I can review all of the previous day's relevant activities in the morning in about five minutes. I set the playback to 5 seconds before activation and a minute or two after activation. Five seconds after the recording starts I see the triggered event. It is easy and quick to pass on false positives.


The first camera gives a general view of the driveway and the front walk. I can easily recognize people I know. However I was concerned about facial detail of people I don't know so I purchased a second camera and aimed it directly at the walk to the house. This 12 MM 24 degree 1080P camera shows good facial detail.


My third camera is 6 MM 54 degrees. It is waiting for final installation at the bird bath.


The forth camera will be a 12 MM camera located closer to the street near the mailbox. I am concerned that I can't read license plates with the 3.6 MM camera that is over 100 ft from the head of the driveway.


Some of the activations/alarms are set to record. The line crossings and intrusions on the front walk are set to record and also an audible signal. I get a beep beep as some one is approaching the front door.


I am amazed at the capabilities of this system and I still have a lot to learn. So far the hard drive recording will go for months with the 2 TB drive because I am only recording events.


----------



## nuraman00

zeuspaul said:


> I just found this thread...after I started purchasing my cameras I will add my experience for those wanting a basic camera system.
> 
> 
> All I wanted was a camera to monitor my front door. I settled on a popular brand of camera and then started reading Amazon reviews. About half way through a long list of reviews some said just get a Hikvision or a ? So I checked into Hikvision and found it is the largest manufacturer of security cameras in the world (according to them). I checked Costco and two of their popular brands are Swann and Lorex. It turns out those brands are rebranded Hikvision cameras (maybe I am wrong). So I checked Amazon and not much on Hikvision there. I found a good selection of Hikvision stuff at B&H Photo. A lot of their Hikvision is drop shipped from the manufacturer. I saw little or no reviews of Hikvision at B&H or Amazon.
> 
> 
> I settled on Hikvision. I wanted to keep it simple as I am doing this myself. I am comfortable with 1080P. I have an available 1080P monitor. I set the B&H filters for 1080P/2MP and TVI which is HD analogue. It requires a double cable (power and signal). I kept the components the same manufacturer because I was guessing there would be fewer compatibility issues.
> 
> 
> I purchased a Turbo HD 8-channel HD-TVI DVR. I don't want or need remote access. The simpler I keep this the better for me. I guessed I might find a spot for three or four cameras so I bought 8 channels just in case. It was only about $50 more than 4 channels. I bought the 2 TB hard drive separately because it was cheaper that way.
> 
> 
> I bought a single 3.6 MM 82 degree field of view camera and the power supply and cable. I installed the camera on a post. When I connected the cables and turned every thing on I saw an image on the monitor!! Configuring everything was a little more tricky, It seems these things are designed for people who know what they are doing. The manual is somewhat well written but it covers too many systems at once. The best source of info for me turned out to be You Tube.
> 
> 
> This set up exceeds all of my expectations. The image quality is very good and I am impressed with the night vision. I tried 24/7 recording until I discovered VCA (Video Content Analysis) The recording activation based on _Line Crossing_ and _Intrusion_ are just what I need. These are the two functions available in the camera I purchased. Motion detect created too many false positives. Once I got the hang of configuring all of the various things these two functions worked with very few false positives.
> 
> 
> I can review all of the previous day's relevant activities in the morning in about five minutes. I set the playback to 5 seconds before activation and a minute or two after activation. Five seconds after the recording starts I see the triggered event. It is easy and quick to pass on false positives.
> 
> 
> The first camera gives a general view of the driveway and the front walk. I can easily recognize people I know. However I was concerned about facial detail of people I don't know so I purchased a second camera and aimed it directly at the walk to the house. This 12 MM 24 degree 1080P camera shows good facial detail.
> 
> 
> My third camera is 6 MM 54 degrees. It is waiting for final installation at the bird bath.
> 
> 
> The forth camera will be a 12 MM camera located closer to the street near the mailbox. I am concerned that I can't read license plates with the 3.6 MM camera that is over 100 ft from the head of the driveway.
> 
> 
> Some of the activations/alarms are set to record. The line crossings and intrusions on the front walk are set to record and also an audible signal. I get a beep beep as some one is approaching the front door.
> 
> 
> I am amazed at the capabilities of this system and I still have a lot to learn. So far the hard drive recording will go for months with the 2 TB drive because I am only recording events.



Thanks for sharing your experience, and your setup.


I'm glad you found a setup that worked for you.


If you're able to, do you have a picture from a recording so people can see what the image quality is like? If you don't want to, that's fine too.


Are you also recording audio?


----------



## zeuspaul

nuraman00 said:


> Thanks for sharing your experience, and your setup.
> I'm glad you found a setup that worked for you.
> If you're able to, do you have a picture from a recording so people can see what the image quality is like? If you don't want to, that's fine too.
> Are you also recording audio?


 
I am not using audio and have not explored that option. None of my cameras have an audio option.


Getting an image to my computer has not been a straight forward process. I can export an mp4 file from the DVR to a thumb drive but none of my mp4 play options recognize the mp4 (mp4 is a container format). After some research I found a free down load from Hikvision called format converter. I was able to convert the mp4 file to another mp4 format that my computer can read. Attached is a screen capture from the 3.6MM camera and a night time capture of a bobcat on the 12 MM camera.


One minor complaint I have with the Hikvision DVR is the cooling fan noise.


----------



## nuraman00

zeuspaul said:


> I am not using audio and have not exolored that option. None of my cameras have an audio option.
> 
> 
> Getting an image to my computer has not been a straight forward process. I can export an mp4 file from the DVR to a thumb drive but none of my mp4 play options recognize the mp4 (mp4 is a container format). After some research I found a free down load from Hikvision called format converter. I was able to convert the mp4 file to another mp4 format that my computer can read. Attached is a screen capture from the 3.6MM camera and a night time capture of a bobcat on the 12 MM camera.
> 
> 
> One minor complaint I have with the Hikvision DVR is the cooling fan noise.



Thanks. 



The daytime image looks great.


The nighttime one is good enough, IMO. Funny the cat has glowing eyes.


This is a good recommendation for anyone that is considering these cameras.


Yes, my DVR is also loud. If I were to start over, I'd consider putting it in an enclosed case mount. However, I also like the setup of where it is now too, and there's enough space to use the mouse and navigate the menus. Not sure there's an ideal situation, to both lower the fan noise, and have easy mouse access and TV monitor access to navigate the menus.



Fortunately, there's no bedrooms near the security camera DVR.


Yes, when I tried saving a video clip to a thumb drive, my system also put the file in a weird format. But apparently the DVR also installs a player for playing the file, onto the USB drive, whenever saving.


----------



## zeuspaul

I have another quibble with my Hikvision setup. I installed a third camera. I tried to configure VCA (video content analysis) for this camera for line crossing and intrusion detection. I got an error message indicating not enough resources for this! Really? The DVR is for 8 cameras but I can only use VCA for 2? I Like VCA for event triggers because I get fewer false alsrms than I do with motion detection. I don't know If I can add memory or if a different head unit would allow for more VCA options.

Not too big of a deal but a disappointment. I am still planning on a forth camera closer to the street because I want to be able to resolve license plates.

I feel a lot more aware of what's going on in my neighboorhood since the installation of the security cameras.



zeuspaul said:


> One minor complaint I have with the Hikvision DVR is the cooling fan noise.


----------



## nuraman00

zeuspaul said:


> I have another quibble with my Hikvision setup. I installed a third camera. I tried to configure VCA (video content analysis) for this camera for line crossing and intrusion detection. I got an error message indicating not enough resources for this! Really? The DVR is for 8 cameras but I can only use VCA for 2? I Like VCA for event triggers because I get fewer false alsrms than I do with motion detection. I don't know If I can add memory or if a different head unit would allow for more VCA options.
> 
> Not too big of a deal but a disappointment. I am still planning on a forth camera closer to the street because I want to be able to resolve license plates.
> 
> I feel a lot more aware of what's going on in my neighboorhood since the installation of the security cameras.



Thanks for sharing.


That is a weird error.


Did you try contacting Hikivision? Did they offer any suggestions?


What other interesting things have you seen in your neighborhood, since the installation of the cameras?


----------



## zeuspaul

I haven't contacted Hikvision. I will do some research first.

The neighborhood is rather boring. Mostly I am learnong what time my neighbors go to work.

The most useful thing so far is knowing when the mailman comes and when packages get delivered.

So far I have seen a bobcat, coyote and racoon walking up my front walk in the middle of the night.



nuraman00 said:


> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> 
> That is a weird error.
> 
> 
> Did you try contacting Hikivision? Did they offer any suggestions?
> 
> 
> What other interesting things have you seen in your neighborhood, since the installation of the cameras?


----------



## nuraman00

zeuspaul said:


> I haven't contacted Hikvision. I will do some research first.
> 
> The neighborhood is rather boring. Mostly I am learnong what time my neighbors go to work.
> 
> The most useful thing so far is knowing when the mailman comes and when packages get delivered.
> 
> So far I have seen a bobcat, coyote and racoon walking up my front walk in the middle of the night.



Cool, thanks for sharing. Let us know if there's any updates on your issue about configuring line crossing and intrusion detection for a third camera.


----------



## need-for-speed

Wow - this thread is just what I was looking for. Kudos to nuraman for doing all of that research and then buying good stuff.

I made the mistake that many do, which is to buy a packaged System - Samsung from Sams. It is 1080 HD. I wanted a DIY system. My primary reason for that is I don't want to pay an installer. I prefer to know how everything works so that I can maintain the system myself. With that knowledge, I can add / swap / move cameras myself for only the cost of the hardware. I had my remodel guy run the BNC cables and then I hooked everything up myself. The picture quality actually isn't that bad. Reading a license plate number was never my goal. I just want to be able to see what's going on at my house and in my shop. This system did just that. What is frustrating is the power supply connection at the back of the NVR (or is it a DVR? - not sure). The power supply is connected to each camera cable via a pig tail and over time, they fail. I'm quite sure its failing where the wire goes into the back of the plug. 

By reading this thread, i've already learned about a power distribution box (thank you Timothy Wright). I think that may solve my problem since the wires will land directly on a terminal strip, eliminating the weak spot in the pigtail. 

But of course, now I want a "more better" system. I was starting to believe that POE / CAT6 was the only way to get into the higher quality systems, and that I would have to replace my RG59 BNC cable runs with CAT 6. After reading T. Wrights (very informative) posts, it looks like I still might have good options with my existing DNC cable. I hope Timothy Wright can chime in. 

How does 5MP compare with my 1080? Is it 5 times better? Please help me in getting educated on this stuff. 

thanks, 
Mike


----------



## nuraman00

need-for-speed said:


> Wow - this thread is just what I was looking for. Kudos to nuraman for doing all of that research and then buying good stuff.
> 
> I made the mistake that many do, which is to buy a packaged System - Samsung from Sams. It is 1080 HD. I wanted a DIY system. My primary reason for that is I don't want to pay an installer. I prefer to know how everything works so that I can maintain the system myself. With that knowledge, I can add / swap / move cameras myself for only the cost of the hardware. I had my remodel guy run the BNC cables and then I hooked everything up myself. The picture quality actually isn't that bad. Reading a license plate number was never my goal. I just want to be able to see what's going on at my house and in my shop. This system did just that. What is frustrating is the power supply connection at the back of the NVR (or is it a DVR? - not sure). The power supply is connected to each camera cable via a pig tail and over time, they fail. I'm quite sure its failing where the wire goes into the back of the plug.
> 
> By reading this thread, i've already learned about a power distribution box (thank you Timothy Wright). I think that may solve my problem since the wires will land directly on a terminal strip, eliminating the weak spot in the pigtail.
> 
> But of course, now I want a "more better" system. I was starting to believe that POE / CAT6 was the only way to get into the higher quality systems, and that I would have to replace my RG59 BNC cable runs with CAT 6. After reading T. Wrights (very informative) posts, it looks like I still might have good options with my existing DNC cable. I hope Timothy Wright can chime in.
> 
> How does 5MP compare with my 1080? Is it 5 times better? Please help me in getting educated on this stuff.
> 
> thanks,
> Mike



Thanks for sharing your experience.


I can't compare with having a BNC system. Since once I read about it, I decided I didn't want a system based on older technology, and wanted a PoE system.


With that said, my cameras are 2 MP, and I am happy with the quality. Even at night, which is most important.


My recommendation is that if you are considering a 4 MP or 5 MP system, see if the camera manufacturer that you choose, offers some live feeds. Some manufacturers do that.


For either live feeds, or samples, it's important to get shots or feeds that are both day and night.



The manufacturer that my Mom ended up choosing provided some live feeds, so we could compare a few models.


If you like that quality, then go with that.


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## nuraman00

need-for-speed said:


> How does 5MP compare with my 1080? Is it 5 times better? Please help me in getting educated on this stuff.
> 
> thanks,
> Mike



1080p = 1920×1080 



5 MP = 2560x1960


So it's not like it's 5x better.


Also, I believe there are other other factors that determine image quality.


Such as sensor size. The larger the sensor, usually the better the quality. You can find sensor size specifications for still cameras, but not as much for video cameras.


Also, to an extent, I believe a slightly lower resolution means each pixel captures more light, and with more light, there is more image detail. With a higher resolution, each pixel is smaller, and thus captures less light, and thus slightly less detail, especially at night. It's more likely to be a duplicate of another pixel.


It's not that simple. But I believe the environment, and lighting conditions are factors when determining image quality, just as much as the resolution of the cameras. 



So a 5 MP camera won't be better than a 2 MP camera, if the lighting source is poor in the first place.


That's why I think trying to judge a camera on other samples or live feeds is a better way to go, than just looking at specifications.


If a manufacturer provides live feeds from different cameras, that is a better way to judge, so one can compare different cameras in the same environment conditions and lighting sources.


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## nuraman00

need-for-speed said:


> Wow - this thread is just what I was looking for. Kudos to nuraman for doing all of that research and then buying good stuff.
> 
> I made the mistake that many do, which is to buy a packaged System - Samsung from Sams. It is 1080 HD. I wanted a DIY system. My primary reason for that is I don't want to pay an installer. I prefer to know how everything works so that I can maintain the system myself. With that knowledge, I can add / swap / move cameras myself for only the cost of the hardware. I had my remodel guy run the BNC cables and then I hooked everything up myself. The picture quality actually isn't that bad. Reading a license plate number was never my goal. I just want to be able to see what's going on at my house and in my shop. This system did just that. What is frustrating is the power supply connection at the back of the NVR (or is it a DVR? - not sure). The power supply is connected to each camera cable via a pig tail and over time, they fail. I'm quite sure its failing where the wire goes into the back of the plug.
> 
> By reading this thread, i've already learned about a power distribution box (thank you Timothy Wright). I think that may solve my problem since the wires will land directly on a terminal strip, eliminating the weak spot in the pigtail.
> 
> But of course, now I want a "more better" system. I was starting to believe that POE / CAT6 was the only way to get into the higher quality systems, and that I would have to replace my RG59 BNC cable runs with CAT 6. After reading T. Wrights (very informative) posts, it looks like I still might have good options with my existing DNC cable. I hope Timothy Wright can chime in.
> 
> How does 5MP compare with my 1080? Is it 5 times better? Please help me in getting educated on this stuff.
> 
> thanks,
> Mike



I like the images that @Timothy Wright posted in *post #159* of 194, so if you like those too, then maybe consider those too.


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## need-for-speed

nuraman00 - thanks for the quick responses. 

One item I just thought about was the BNC cables I had my remodel guy run. I made the amateur mistake of having them run the cheapie / skinny cables that came with the camera system. Only the 4 cams in my shop are wired with the RG59 cable. I may need to run new cable - which would make the switch to IP cameras more justifiable. 

I have read good things about Hikvision (as well as the stories about counterfeit Hikvisions out there). Like before - I prefer to have my remodel guy run the cables. I'll be having my house exterior painted soon and he could run the cable for me then. They'll be climbing all over the house any way. I know one of the earlier posts in this thread referenced a supplier / vendor who was vey good about remoting in and setting everything up. I may just give them a call. I would like to educate myself a little more first though.


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## VisionxOrb

checkout ipcamtalk.com. its like avs but for security cameras.


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## nuraman00

need-for-speed said:


> nuraman00 - thanks for the quick responses.
> 
> One item I just thought about was the BNC cables I had my remodel guy run. I made the amateur mistake of having them run the cheapie / skinny cables that came with the camera system. Only the 4 cams in my shop are wired with the RG59 cable. I may need to run new cable - which would make the switch to IP cameras more justifiable.
> 
> I have read good things about Hikvision (as well as the stories about counterfeit Hikvisions out there). Like before - I prefer to have my remodel guy run the cables. I'll be having my house exterior painted soon and he could run the cable for me then. They'll be climbing all over the house any way. I know one of the earlier posts in this thread referenced a supplier / vendor who was vey good about remoting in and setting everything up. I may just give them a call. I would like to educate myself a little more first though.



I ended up getting several estimates. Both because I wanted to compare different evaluations.


But also, it helps to ask questions as they're giving an evaluation. So if one installer came and said something about placing a camera HERE, and getting this type of camera, I'd ask why that was his recommendation, and how it compared to a few others I'd seen. Then I'd listen to his answers.


Even if you prefer having a remodel guy do the installation, I think it still helps to talk to someone.


I wouldn't feel right having someone come over for an estimate if I was sure I wasn't going to consider their services. So maybe instead, try calling an installer and see if you can ask questions on the phone.


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## need-for-speed

​


VisionxOrb said:


> checkout ipcamtalk.com. its like avs but for security cameras.


Thanks for the info.


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## Aslan

There are numerous options for NVR's. Increasingly the most popular seem to be SecuritySpy (Mac) and Blue Iris (Win). The capabilities of these are well beyond most other options. SecuritySpy seems generally the better and more reliable of the two but also the more expensive, especially for people with a lot of cameras. 

Also consider the NVR capabilities from Ubiquiti and Synology. Neither are very robust but a good option for some people. Keep in mind that Ubiquiti stuff works only with Ubiquiti stuff. Last and increasingly least is an NVR appliance such as Luma, ICRealTime, Lorex, or similar. Most are made by Dahua and Hikvision. If you get one of these then you want to brand match it to your cameras to avoid headaches. Take a very hard look at SecuritySpy and Blue Iris first though.

For cameras Dahua seems the best option with Hikvision next. Many cameras are made by one of these two (SnapAV/Control 4's Luma are Dahua for instance). If you're using SS or BI then you can pick and choose the best camera for the purpose. If you're using an NVR appliance then choose same brand cameras. 

We'll build three new systems over the coming months. Likely SecuritySpy on Mac Mini's w/ Dahua cameras. Still over researching though.


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## Jack105479

I think the only difference between normal cameras and IP cameras in terms of remote access is that IP Cameras can be directly connected to the internet for remote access. ... CCTV Cameras on the other hand can't be directly connected to the internet and need to first communicate with the DVR and then the DVR itself is connected to the internet. IP cameras have multiple sensors, good resolution, and more secure but they have a disadvantage of cost of initial set up and storage.


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## FlyingDiver

Jack105479 said:


> IP cameras have multiple sensors, good resolution, and more secure but they have a disadvantage of cost of initial set up and storage.


I don't think that IP cameras have either of those "disadvantages". Maybe the camera itself is slightly more expensive, but wiring for IP cameras is cheaper - only one cable required, rather than two or three. And I don't see any difference in storage costs (in the NVR).


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## Endurah Game

VisionxOrb said:


> checkout ipcamtalk.com. its like avs but for security cameras.


Thanks for the suggestion!


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