# ***THE Official SUPER DELUXE Gallery***



## CMRA

*****Attention all SD/MM screen builders******

THIS THREAD IS DEDICATED TO YOUR SCREEN SHOTS.


As more and more SD/MM screens are built I felt they should have a dedicated thread to share the fruits of our labors. PLEASE keep this a Gallery ONLY thread for your beloved screen shots. Nice compliments to the posters exempted.


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## CMRA

Leeloo 1


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## CMRA

Leeloo 2


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## CMRA

Bruce 1


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## CMRA

Leeloo 3


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## CMRA

Bruce 2


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## CMRA

Nemo and Friends


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## CMRA

Darla 1


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## CMRA

Joke time with Marlin


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## CMRA

Cheerful Bruce


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## broadwayblue

CMRA, your setup looks fantastic! what projector/screen combo are you running?


it would be nice if people posting to this thread would list their equipment.


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## CMRA

Mary Sunshine


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## CMRA

Satine 1, peaches and cream close-up


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## GreggPenn

CMRA:


There seems to be an inordinate amount of color "blooming" around the tail of the red fish (and yellow one) in the picture attached to post #10.


Is this a by-product of the internal reflections created by your SD/MM screen?


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## CMRA

Harry 1


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## CMRA

The Duke 1


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## CMRA

Satine 2


(PS: Thank You AVS members for keeping this a Gallery ONLY thread)


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## CMRA

Proximo 1


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## CMRA

the 'hand'


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## CMRA

"My name is Gladiator"


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## CMRA

Lucious 1


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## MississippiMan

Great Thread.


....and thanks for everyone (...almost) for keeping it a gallery, and not asking questions. Help awaits on the SD/MM SuperPlex thread.



CMRA, Wheres my Bangaloid holding the Priest Hostage?


Tucker in his Rose trimmed outfit?


...and the Pres?




But thanks for leaving the "reconstructed from the hand" shot out. It's been posted to death.



But you know, with a SD/MM LFS, it's probably a whole new SS anyway..., SO POST IT!


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## CMRA

the 'undefeated'


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## CMRA

Dracus 1


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## Joe Przybylski

CMRA,


Your shots use the Super-deluxe topcoat, right? On safety glass? Or did you go with Plexi/Mirror?


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## CMRA

Satine after the fall


( PS: Everyone, PLEASE remember to do your part to keep this thread

Q & A free. Use the "SuperPlex" thread for that )


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## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by Joe Przybylski_
*CMRA,


Your shots use the Super-deluxe topcoat, right? On safety glass? Or did you go with Plexi/Mirror?*
Joe, All questions should be asked on the SuperPlex thread or via PM


We want these pics to remain easy to come by, at the start of this thread. be advised all that this question and the answers therein will be the last. You can and should post comments, pro & con


SuperDeluxe means "Mirror w/MM Top Coat These Pics are that variety.

SuperDeluxe means "Mirror w/MM Top Coat These Pics are that variety.

SuperDeluxe means "Mirror w/MM Top Coat These Pics are that variety.


 That should settle that.


PJ is a Z1, positioned on a Table from approx. 10' SD/MM Light Fusion Screen is 84" diagonal.


If anyone has a question that they think deserves in depth reply, start another thread titled with that question. Your answer will both be forthcoming just as soon, and one hell of a lot easier to find.


Now.....back to our regularly scheduled programming. Commercial free, we hope.


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## CMRA

1914 Priest1


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## CMRA

the apprentice


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## rlev

OK, Here are the long awaited super parkland pics. 4 coats Behr Silver Metallic on reverse side of parkland plastic. These are from my HTPC thru a NEC LT-150 unmodded projector.


1st up Gladiator


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## rlev

Nice Kitty


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## rlev

From Gettysburg, The red uniform just jumps out of the screen


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## rlev

From Star Trek First Contact. Notice the excellent blacks


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## rlev

No set of screen shots would be complete without at least one from Finding Nemo


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## MississippiMan

rlev,


Proud you make me, and proud you must be. Those are exceptional images. And from just good 'ol SM on the pack of a plain piece of Parkland. For many who cannot get a hold of 5' x 10 foot Plexi or Mirrors (...at ANY price), the same size in a Parkland ($75.00) with Silver Metallic on the rear it a KILLER application that ranks right up there in it's own right with SM/MM on a wall, and yes...even SD/MM on Plexi.


Still must go a ways to unseat the SD/MM Light Fusion Screen, but at the price and availability, not to mention (...but I WILL!) the added ease of construction, but it's so good as it is, I'd like to suggest you start a dedicated Thread to attract specifically, would be and current Parkland owners to the discovery. They are a particularly cheap crowd, and will love this upgrade!


Spread the word! Not just the Silver Metallic!


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## CMRA

They call him Ruby Rhod.


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## CMRA

"wind"


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## CMRA

capture the 'chrome'


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## CMRA

"Don't die. They will feed you to the lions."


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## pochoboy

CMRA, could you post a pic of your SD screen with the lites on, I'd like to see your set up on the wall. Also, if you do have lite spill on the edges I'd like to see how those look.


thanks in advance


btw, I'm in real awe of all your pics, I want one, but I'm gonna wait to see if I can pick up a panel at a garage sale or something like that.


edit, also while I'm still asking, hows about a close up of the texture of the SD screen?


3 pics is all i'm asking


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## CMRA

Mr. Potato Head 1


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## CMRA

Professor and Bullseye


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## CMRA

Maximus 1


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## CMRA

Proximo 2


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## CMRA

desert dweller


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## CMRA

T-Rex 'what white teeth you have'


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## CMRA

Woody 1


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## CMRA

Bo and Woody 1


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## CMRA

Now for something 'new and different',


Stuart


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## CMRA

Margola (sp?)


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## CMRA

Snowbell


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## CMRA

Falcon 1


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## CMRA

How about something totally new?


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## CMRA

"for Natives only", the butcher


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## scoob5555

Okay, I'm in the game again. I have a few panels here in these shots. Left 1/4 is MM (2 coats) directly over SM on do-able. Next 1/4 is MM over ME+. The next 1/3 is the SD/MM on 1/8" plexi. The darker patch below the plexi screen is the original ME+ screen. For more details and impressions, check out the other SD/MM thread.


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## scoob5555

One of 4 or 5 from Nemo


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## scoob5555

2 of 4 or 5 from Nemo


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## scoob5555

3 of 4 or 5


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## scoob5555

4 of 5 or 6


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## scoob5555

5 of 5


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## CMRA

Stuart 2


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## CMRA

Stuart, "phone home".


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## CMRA

"Can I eat him, please?"


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## Tryg

CMRA,


What is the point of all these screen shots if they aren't compared to anything?


For all we know every one of them could be doctored in photoshop.


Endless screenshots without comparison doesn't tell me anything!


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## Clarence

Tryg-


I too sensed a consiracy theory since my PSP histogram shows a bit range from 0,0,0 (perfect black) to 254 white.


But someone has asked if my screenshots had been doctored, which I thought was flattering. I give CMRA the benefit of the doubt. I'd just like to learn more of his screenshot technique (I'll keep searching, I'm sure others have asked). The screen paints mixes and techniques seem interesting too, but I don't think it's suited to my CRT.


I like Scoob's screenshots with the different treatments for comparison.


CMRA: "Too good to believe" is a pretty good compliment. Hope you take it in the positive sense intended.


I'm moving my post for the 3rd time. I think this thread is finally the most appropriate place for it... especially since you were seeking some sort of comparison (CMRA as posted vs my DVD frame extraction)...


============================================


CMRA asked me to re-post my comments and questions here since it gets more traffic instead of his One-a-camera, two-a-camera post.


My main concern is that my original source (DVD) image is somehow limited...


============================================


Wow. I've got to mix some of that paint up!


CMRA's screenshot:
http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/cmra.jpg 


Even my WinDVD screen captures (not screenshots, this is *directly from the DVD*) don't look that good:
http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/mouse1.jpg 


I resized it to 612 like yours. The unresized, full-color, uncompressed PNG is here .


Perfect 0,0,0 blacks in your phone and your whites are impressive too. The spot above the ear is 254. Anything at 255 and people would complain that you're clipping whites.


I'll use this post and your screenshot as reference next time someone complains that digital projectors can't handle black levels.

*Should I be using something better than WinDVD?* Can someone else provide screen captures (this scene is from Stuart Little 2, Ch 15, 0:46:30) from other DVD players. I want that punch, that oomph, those extra details like the sky's reflection in the phone that I didn't even know was there.


Thanks.


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## Tryg

honestly CMRA,


In fairness I'm holding back on calling BS. What is your objective in this endless displaying of these pictures? It's TOTALLY misguiding people if you fail to compare with anything else.


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## CMRA

A melancholy Satine


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## CMRA

the Duke 2


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## SlackerX

Even we lurkers knew it was coming...


I sense a CMRA, Tryg, MississippiMan shootout-throwdown-brawl about to occur...


I can only hope that this actually happens because all of us will be the beneficiaries.


DING, DING! 



Honestly though, MississippiMan has hinted that he may be willing to travel far and wide to prove his DIY screen method is for real. I think it's time for some sort of shootout. I'm demoing and X1 and an LP500 this week and I'll be making a decision on the screen very soon--so, please, shake hands and do battle...



Edit: Oh, yeah... Don't forget to throw the "goo" and "blackout-cloth" folks in there as well...


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## SlackerX

I do have to say (since this is my first posting on the Screens forum) that you guys have all completely surpassed what I believed was possible from a DIY standpoint.


I can only say that I've been staring, slack jawed, at all the incredible screenshots from the various different methods employed through most of the day today and I'm just now getting to the end of the "Superdelux" and "White, Grey, Silver" threads. Man, that was like a reading odyssey--but WELL worth it.


Thanks for all your hard work, and please keep it up!


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## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by SlackerX_
*I do have to say (since this is my first posting on the Screens forum) that you guys have all completely surpassed what I believed was possible from a DIY standpoint.


Thanks for all your hard work, and please keep it up!*
Observations and compliments such as yours are the engines of our endeavors that makes it all worth while. These next two screen shots I post in your honor.


For SlackerX, 'looking up'


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## CMRA

For SlackerX, 'saying goodbye'


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## CMRA

Not to overlook marcorsyscom's contribution, I post this screen shot in his honor.


Falcon 2


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## CMRA

In flight


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## dpadair

When the black level on the screen capture is as black as the black on my monitor, you know it is not a representative screen capture.


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## Clarence

CMRA-


Thanks for pointing me in the right direction for your digicam settings:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=343492 


I'll try them tonight. I have a Canon S45, but I think it has similar settings for AWB, ISO, aperture, exposure bracketing. I'll look into the zoomplayer color controls too. Maybe that's what I need to add punch to my DVD source.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Thue_
*CMRA-> I have read a lot of your nice posts in the screen section, but I have read anything about your ffdshow settings. Do you mind elaborating on your experiences and thoughts?*
Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_
*Thue,

ffdshow remains a mystery to me. My HTPC setup, used when I play non-film transfers like Toy Story and Nemo, is a Win DVD 4.0 player with a Zoomplayer overlay. Currently, I only use the 'color' adjustment section of the Zoomplayer. HTPC is set at 720p with the Z1.

Most of my DVD viewing is done via my Panny XP-50 at 480p. The screen shots in this thread (except for the Nemo one) are from the Panny.


If you use Zoomplayer and ever figure out how to activate ffdshow, please share it with me.*
Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_
*OK. I've posted this info many times, but not on this thread. Here goes:


Camera Oly: Es-100

PJ: Z1

Screen: Super Deluxe (DIY) 84" diagonal

Source: Panny XP-50 for film based material (480P)

Source: HTPC/ATI video card WInDVD4.0 with Zoomplayer color overlay for Pixar material


Camera set on "Auto white balance", ISO 100, "Aperture" control

Camera sits atop PJ. Zoom to frame.

Bracket exposers, typically -0.7, -0.3, 0.0, +0.3, +0.7

Select best exposed image

Resize and crop to eliminate black bands

Post image.


That's all folks.


PS: Yes, of course the room is light controlled. No post processing. Not only would it be too time consuming, but misleading IMO.*


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## Everdog

Quote:

_Originally posted by Tryg_
*CMRA,


What is the point of all these screen shots if they aren't compared to anything?


For all we know every one of them could be doctored in photoshop.


Endless screenshots without comparison doesn't tell me anything!*
I agree with the above. I applaud everyone who works hard on finding a better way to make a DIY screen, but find it sad that some have nothing better to do than post "Screen shots" without any other useful information day after day after day...


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## NickB

Quote:

_Originally posted by Everdog_
*I agree with the above. I applaud everyone who works hard on finding a better way to make a DIY screen, but find it sad that some have nothing better to do than post "Screen shots" without any other useful information day after day after day...*
Well maybe if you guys had followed the Ddog, CMRA, and MM threads from the beginning you would realize that the latest screenshot posts are just the fruit hanging from the tree. There have been endless posts on the experiments and failures of each respective mix, and a number of people have gone on to say that these screens just won't work. I even posted some negatives on the first ME threads.


Hundreds of posts later, these DIY pioneers have realized their goal and they are starting to show the results for all of us to see. Whether you like them or not is up to you, but for both you and Tryg to say that these are meaningless, well you just aren't taking them in context. My god men, this is a DIY thread! For those of us that HAVE been following these guys experiments, the screenshots are proof that they have finally reached a point where these are viable alternatives. This is something we've all been hoping for and the screen shots are proof that this can work.


Yes, there has been a lot of hype about these things looking better than professional screens (plasma-like), and that tends to rock the boat a little, but lets give it time for more DIY'rs to post their results. One thing these screen shots are doing is to motivate us "fence-sitters" into getting started. Once this happens I think we will start to see the comparisons you've bee asking for.


I think Tryg's main beef is that the screenshots aren't a good representation and will lead others to wasting time and effort on something mediocre. Once again I have to say this is DIY! This is fun stuff for most of us, and if we save a grand in the process then so be it. However, to go as far as saying it's a bunch of "BS" just shows that he hasn't been following the threads from the beginning, as there have been comparisons made. I know it's a lot to ask to wade through the numerous posts but all the info is there.


Let's just all be civil again and get this endeavor back on track.


NickB


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## NickB

PS: I still LOVE my high-power screen


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## Trepidati0n

Everdog and Tyrg,


Did you happen to pop into a thread...look at it and decide to state "so sad that all he does is post screen shots" and "i don't believe it because there is no comparison" and a glance, or was there other reasoning besides this.


I encourage you first to go through all 1000's of post related to the SD/MM evolution. There are quite a few comparison shots if you care to look. I guess you don't keep up with the screen forum...just pop in, hit a few threads and throw down some flamage.


Everdog: Name calling doesn't do much good. How would you like it if a person came up and called it sad that all you do is lurk around AV forums wishing you had high-end gear? It doesn't benefit anybody to flame a person who does a significant amount of work for the DIY screen crowd. I swear you jumped on Tyrg's comment just to be heard.


Tyrg: Your comment of "In fairness I'm holding back on calling BS. What is your objective in this endless displaying of these pictures? It's TOTALLY misguiding people if you fail to compare with anything else." is nothng short of flaming. Do you think CMRA would spend $100's of dollars perpetuating a lie that has been validated by countless comparisons (see the other threads on the start of SD/MM and evolution of it). Even MississippiMan who is a professional screen painter adores SD/MM.


I wish the use of PM would be used a bit more before throwing some gasoline on the fire. Political tact seems to be lacking in forums around the world these past few years. A simple rewording of Tyrg's post could have asked a questions without resorting to name calling.


Reworded: "CMRA, Could you please compare your screen shots with a traditional DIY screen like Misty Evening to show some of the lurkers and newcomers how good this screen is. A half and half would be more that great."


I believe those words are much more palatable to someone who working like a slave for many people he doesn't even know.


-tReP


(edit: spelling)


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## intermix

Ummm, guys. The thread is a screenshot "gallery". Also known as a thread full of screenshots. I call BS on your BS.


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## CMRA

(Something New)

Babs and Ginger


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## CMRA

Mrs. Tweedy


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## CMRA

Ginger1


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## CMRA

Rocky1


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## CMRA

Ginger 2


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## JMA

CMRA, this is getting old, we have seen enough. I implore you, stop -- save bandwidth, bytes, memory -- whatever.


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## bcortez

Why do you care. If you don't like it, don't view it. Perhaps we who are on the verge of making one of these screens appreciate the fact taht we can see how it performs on different media and presentation subjects?


Thanks CMRA for all your work and efforts to show us the pics. I for one appreciate it....keep 'em coming.


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## pochoboy

ah yeah, let him go, the owners of this forum are the ones to cut his line if they want too. Just ignore the pics or view the ones you want, that's all.


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## Tryg

I finally took 5 minutes to debunk this stuff, but I'll let you decide.


1. morcorsyscom already did on the previous page


2. I blew up 5 screen shots and I'm NOT convinced these came from a Sanyo PLV Z1 LCD projector (964 X 544). Pixel structure of LCD and at this limited resolution should be very obvious when blown up. It is not there.


3. I do have some evidence that they are not just Win DVD4 screen captures (I'm not sure for all of them)


4. The colors and blacks are so off the chart it's impossible to believe they are not manipulated in some way. I've never seen colors or black that deep from any display device at any price let alone a Sanyo Z1


5. I have personal alibi refuting the quality of this actual screen (possible)


6. ther is NO other evidence to allow for any kind of quality reference against anything else, like what's outside the screen shot perimeter or any comparison to just a white wall. ANYTHING


So basically I just have to say have fun CMRA you have more time on your hands than I.


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## unefined

So.... not to be too picky, but when will we see a showdown including the SD/MM screen? I mean, screen shots are nice and pretty and all - but I'm with Tryg on wanting to see some comparisons. No offense CMRA, I know you've put a lot of work into this project, but the screen shots really do look too good to be true. If this can be verified by some third parties, you may have the best screen design ever invented on your hands. If not, my leg is tired of being pulled


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## bosng

hey i think the gauntlet has been thrown down here. not to fan the flames but how about it cmra? you've provided us with lots of screenshots that are pretty unbelievable for diy. can you please take some pics zoomed out a bit to show surrounding areas and pics with half and half with another material(i'm sure you've got lots if you've created a screen like this).

have someone stand in front of the screen too. lets see some of these incredible shots in context! please don't get me wrong. i (and i assume many others) really want to believe, and am daunted by the size of the other threads, but if you post pictures in differing context, (i believe) it would strengthen your results.


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## CMRA

These next screenshots are named in honor of NickB, trepidation, bcortez, intermix, and slackerX for their actions. Thankyou for coming forward and defending this noble cause.


I sure would like to see some other SD/MM screen shots too. Soon.


Rocky 2


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## CMRA

Babs 2


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## CMRA

Babs 3


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## Shedrock

I am Switzerland. I refuse to get involved in any online soap operas, or cat fights. Screenshots are a bad way to judge a projector, or screen - period. CMRA is a nice guy who is really enthusiastic about home theater.


Originally I was considering a Vutec Silverstar, but was intrigued by the whole paint/glass thing. CMRA and I live in the same city, and have the same projectors. We had discussed possibly using a set of mirror doors to make two large screens, and splitting the costs. He suggested the I come over to view his latest screen.


---evidence of this meeting can be found in this thread (off topic for this discussion): --
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...07#post3121807 



The screen that I saw was a sheet of glass around 62" diagonal, with a silver painted back, and Mississippi Mudd on the front.


To get to the point, it was a nice product, but.....it did not "blow me away". I had brought along samples of several screen materials, including a 3 foot square piece of Parkland Plastic (a thick white pvc sheet). In my opinion, his screen was about 15% better than the Parkland. Even he was surprised at how little difference there was.


I had seen a demonstration of the Silverstar at the EH-Expo in Long Beach a few months ago, and was really impressed. I decided while still at CMRA's house that I finally was ready to purchase the Vutec screen. I am now awaiting delivery.


My point is not to promote only commercial screens, but to encourage people to be skeptical of all internet promoted products. I am worried that some may view these screenshots and make a huge time/money commitment chasing the end of the rainbow.


Note: please do not send me PM's regarding this matter..... I am done with it.


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## Tryg

Great feedback for new people to the forum! The results of DIY can be good and fun. Professionally manufactured stuff can have a slight edge at the lower end, and it's no contest at the higher gains. These pics look just too good to be true. I hope nobody has seen these and made the assumption that DIY has discovered the fountain of youth.


This all should be put into context so people can compare and make informed and rational decisions about what they really want.


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## CMRA

Thank you Matt for your very OBJECTIVE input. Since you have some first hand experience, I believe you have earned the right to pass judgment as you see it.


I too was quite taken how good the Parkland was. In fact, while Matt was here he brought along some "Carada" samples and we both could distinguish no apparent difference between these and the Parkland. Carada as many already know is a highly regarded OEM that custom builds screens for hundreds of dollars. No one need sell the Parkland short. It is the best bargain I know.


Issues? Yes I have some. At least with my set up anyway. The Parkland just couldn't produce the black levels I am accustomed to with my set up. Additionally, the Parkland brought out the 'yellow' fringe that seems characteristic of my Z1 PJ. The fringe may be a non factor with a different projector.


Agree to disagree? A question of screen shots. Matt is quick to dismiss them. Not me. Members who follow my threads KNOW I have posted redundant screen shots of my GRAY, SILVER, and DELUXE screens. Any member can simply download both images (sometimes all three) and compare side by side. That's why they are there. Often there are HUGE differences. I know of no better way to share this evidence with members.


Comparison screen shots are also very telling. I have posted dozens. How important are they? Anyone reading not seen Vutec's 'Silverstar' banner ad? The comparison shot just about tells it all and certainly sends the message home. A footnote to this. That's how I met Matt in the first place. He posted a screen shot of his DIY "ghettostar" screen. I noticed he lived in the same city that I did and his screen shot was able to illustrate in one photo what a hundred posts never could do. I was motivated enough to contact him and the rest is history.


So just how good is SD/MM? For me, it's the best solution to date. I do alot of DVD viewing. None of my other screen solutions has seen the light of "Sanyo' since I fabricated my 84" mirrored Super Deluxe.

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.


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## CMRA

Just how important are screen shots/comparison shots? I'll let you be the judge. Here is a SS comparing three Super Deluxe variants atop a gray screen. (It's been posted before)


The photo is highly cropped to fit the AVS posting requirements. No other alterations have been made, not even resizing. You can even see the SDE of my Z1 that would be unnoticible in normal viewing. This close the camera picks out all the artifacts.


Again, you be the judge. FWIW the mirrored SD/MM is on your upper right.


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## SDB

Is this in the film or not? I can't tell yet because I'm at work or I would check for myself.


Thank you for your time and don't take this the wrong way. I'm more of a Disney nut than a HT nut, so I was wondering what it's purpose was.


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## Clarence

Quote:

Just how important are screen shots/comparison shots?
Thanks CMRA. That's my favorite shot of all of yours. Your other ones are fun to look at and are good examples of color overlay enhancements and exposure techniques, but the *comparison* shot really helps emphasize the potential benefits of different screen materials.


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## CMRA

Please take the time to compare these next two images. I believe they go along way to illustrate my point.


Both are from Finding Nemo, same scene, same source, same projector, same settings, same camera. The only thing that has changed is the screen.

Please take the effort and download both of these images and compare them side by side. The first is from a 'Silver' screen, and the following image from my Super Deluxe.


Silver image:


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## CMRA

And now on the Super Deluxe


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## bosng

cmra

now that's what i'm talkin bout!! the last few shots are really telling. the difference between the silver and the sd is enormous!!!

the brightness is just not to be believed. i'm definitely going to read through your other thread. i agree with the guy that said the shot with the

swatches put together was the most informative.

thanks again.


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## Wireless

The silver looks better in my eyes but it is hard to tell since they are not the exact same frame. The picture on the SD looks like it is clipping whites.


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## bosng

"The picture on the SD looks like it is clipping whites."


i was gonna mention that in the other thread but since you did...

many of the sd images look a bit hot and colors are super saturated.

i assume one can just pull back on the contrast to fix. yes?


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## Clarence

Or tone down the brightness/contrast/gamma/hue/saturation pre-processing on the color overlay. I like the extra zing, but a little goes a long way.


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## SensiStar

Hello CMRA, Im new here and been following this thread. I wanted to ask a question. My question is, If I use reflective mylar material for the backing would I need to add 3 layers to the front with the MM formula to cut it down some? This stuff is super reflective when it comes to light.


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## EmuMannen

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_
*FWIW the mirrored SD/MM is on your upper right.*
What is it on the lower left?


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## MississippiMan

Ok....., Aloha ya all.


I'm back. Filled with the Island spirt, and sporting a wicked Coral Scrape on my leg. Let's see...., in order of the amount of "terror quotent", I surfed the face of 40'+ waves at Jaws, and battled 50 mph+ winds for 8 hours straight while trying to spray paint a screen on a jobsite with no windows; but neither wasn't nearly as scary or as stressful as developments that have occurred on this thread in my absence.



Ok, I expect a little 'wildness' when my back is turned  .....so I of course, I have to come back to find that not only have a few 'newbies' come onto this thread just to complain about the thread's intended purpose, and right to bandwidth.


But then along comes no less than Tryg himself, an AVS icon, and someone I have lauded in the past as both instrumental and an inspiration to all that I do, and he has accused CMRA of outright fraud and trickery. Incredible. But not wholly unexpected.


Well then you better accuse me too, Tryg for I have been there in person with CMRA, have had a hand in the making of these screens, and have also posted a few screen shots of my own as well.


As stated a few posts back, it had to happen sooner or later. I've faced it myself, and all too often, the root of it all is that the "pioneers" just can't accept or condone success that appears to come from the endeavors of the Lessor Gods. And God forbid ANYONE but them post the first 'perfect' screen shot. And shades of Armageddon! From a Z1 of all PJs !


Your living life with blinders on Tryg, or you "choose" not to see. You claim to "look at the Screen" yet you cannot face the possibility someone sees what you can't accept.


First, let me say Mucho Gracias to all of you who minded the proverbial "store" in my absence and addressed some of the snippy comments that were made. Most of all the ground was covered, so I'll not contribute any more....much. "rolleyes"


From all the others, I can understand and even forgive their doubts. Ignorance breeds a lot of malidroits, and loosens the tounges of many "lurkers". So they jump in to muck about. It's a "I can do this" kind thing. We all expect it.


But sumbuddys' else who should know better is still due a trip to the Woodshed.


Would that I could have 'been there' at the start of this, I would have nipped it in the bud via appropriate PMs. But then again, why should that have mattered, considering the individuals involved?


In fairness, CMRA could have taken a more defensive stand privately right at the very beginning, and in doing so, perhaps convinced his 'distractor'. But all that know him know he is slow to respond to direct requests that are thinly veiled attempts to define the adage, "Oh yeah...prove it!" But that's the only cross he has to bear..., and it's a light one comparitivley.


And let it be know that I'd have still opted to take this PM, as is my nature with any peer, had I had the preference and the desire to do so. But somethings need to be aired, and I smell some mighty dirty undies lying about.


Now for the 'heavyweight'.


Tryg..., I'm flat out ashamed at you for your comments and attitude. You could have easily conferred with CMRA via PM, allowed him to at least refute your concerns (read: ACCUSATIONS) & prove his position. Instead, you assault a man publicly on his own thread with accusations of dishonesty, laced with "I'm not certain" but unmittigated by prudence of any kind. This you do to CMRA, who I personally know has no ulterior motive other than to bring exceptional DIY applications to all who might desire one.


This guy is TOO honest to have to be so maligned in such a offhand manner, and WAY TOO accepting of your baseless attacks.


And don't fall back on the old, "I was only protecting others" excuse. There is NO excuse for your actions, when viewed against the ambigoius 'proofs' you've offered. Shock and Awe, mixed with perplex ion and disbelief, maybe. With a touch of "ol Green Eyes as well.


Where, might I ask, is your definitive DIY creation? Hmmmmm?


Wassamatter, are you so jealous of another's successes that you have to stoop to accusations just as baseless as what your calling CMRA's (...and mine...) efforts?


ANYONE who follows our threads knows the amount of effort, as well as integrity that went into todays' end result. Saying that you went back a read them all doesn't wash. You got caught jerking you knee and now you want to justify it. Too late for that. In many quarters I deal in, you'd be slapped with a libel suit. So very fast. That's just how far you took it .


Below is your abrasive and malicious post. If you can crane your stiff neck up wards just far enough from the depths you've sunken to follow, then do so.





> _Originally posted by Tryg_
> 
> *I finally took 5 minutes to debunk this stuff, but I'll let you decide.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. morcorsyscom already did on the previous page
> >>
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 4. The colors and blacks are so off the chart it's impossible to believe they are not manipulated in some way. I've never seen colors or black that deep from any display device at any price let alone a Sanyo Z1
> *


----------



## Tryg

Jeez MM is that all you got?


Obviously I cant respond to your every assertion because I could barely make it through your overly verbose post! 15 minutes


So I will only say this. I have seen and evaluated well over 100 screen materials and am intimately familiar with posting results in the form of screen shots. I have 3500 posts, most of which are of a helping nature trying to educate or steer people to what I know through experience are the right and best products. I have called BS on the giants of the industry as well as those who know nothing. I have not been bought by anybody, and like others, try to show my enthusiasm like that of a child when I find something that is truly amazing from my vantage point.

If you don't think I'm worthy you always have the option to put me on your ignore list.


Now back to the screenshots. Are they misleading?


Is this picture too good to be true?


http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/cmra.jpg 


well import the pic into photoshop and tell me what contrast levels you get from the black and whites?


Anyway, some of these screenshot are far better than anything I have ever seen and seem to defy everything I know about AV. You guys should really go into business if you have a product this revolutionary!


Or you can compare your results on a number of levels to educate us all on it's week points and strengths. AT the very least try to explain how your screenshots look so utterly amazing.


Please don't use my quote "far better than anything I have ever seen"



but PLEASE educate us.


Although the product might be amazing at a DIY level, these screen shots without any disclaimers are misleading to new people that lack the experience of evaluating over 100 different materials.


----------



## SlackerX

I think that the only way that this is going to be settled is in person...



A shoot-out isn't just warranted now, IMO, but necessary. Maybe it didn't have to come down to this, but it probably did...


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by Tryg_
*


but PLEASE educate us.

*
Class begins on page 12 post #237 of scoob5555's thread "Misty Evening + Silver". If your'e too sorry to mouse click a few times then you'll just have to miss the bus and walk. The knowledge is there for all who want it.


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by_
*Jeez MM is that all you got?

Obviously I cant respond to your every assertion because I could barely make it through your overly verbose post! 15 minutes*
My post would only seem overly verbose to one uncomfortable with the content. The Burner is turned up under your butt, your feeling heat were none has been before, and it doesn't feel good. Now why should I say any less than you deserve? Once again, you flatter yourself. I gave you only as much as I decided to. Your responses below show all the justification needed for what was said.

Quote:

*

So I will only say this. I have seen and evaluated well over 100 screen materials and am intimately familiar with posting results in the form of screen shots............*


Hmmmm, and you said you didn't have much spare time. More like you have a desire to be looked upon as the definitive "Expert", which is fine when mixed with humility and consideration for others. But where are they. Not in your accusations or your responses.


Let's see...., all those "screen materials" were both something other than the application in question, and done with both PJs and photo equipment that differ from what was being used. So that gave you the right to call someone a liar and a cheat. And your qualifications to do so?

Quote:

*

"......to what I know through experience are the right and best products.
*
You know from your "PAST" experiences. But you know nothing about what you accuse as fraud, and obviously didn't take the time or give the consideration to CMRA to attempt to learn squat before lambasting him. No, you depended on you vast "experience", which to date is decidedly biased to your previous assumptions of what is and is not possible. You know full well how many time people pop in to say, "Can you tell me everything about...", without bothering to research the posts that went before. You yourself have sent them packing to go learn. Why should you be any more privileged? If you would have expressed doubt, asked for proofs and validation, and behaved like a decent person who fears litigation, we would not be having these issues to deal with.

Quote:

*

I have not been bought by anybody, and like others, try to show my enthusiasm like that of a child when I find something that is truly amazing from my vantage point.*
.and act like a child when someone garners more attention and obvious respect than you yourself have at present. Don't think your fooling anybody. Your feeling threatened by something decidedly different and hard to believe. So you choose to dismiss it a a lie. Your too blind to realize than many aspects of the project are owed to information posted by you. That you didn't go down that road first must chap your hieny.

Quote:

*

If you don't think I'm worthy you always have the option to put me on your ignore list.*
Isn't that typical. You post abusive, slanderous, and spiteful comments, then say, If you don't like it, ignore me. Well what you say to CMRA, you say to me as well. If you make a case, and show what you feel is honest and obvious proofs of deceit, you may get a rebuttal, but you'd receive no accusations of unfairness and malicious intent. No Tryg, you went way too far too far out of bounds. Your too well known, many on AVS know you personally, and people DO listen to your words, so sorry, your excluded from the "Ignore" list. More is expected of you, not less. You made that bed, now lie in it. Don't repeat or make any new statements like you did before without accompanying proof again. Do so, and you'll get a chance to ignore my Attorney. (...and that would NOT work.)

Quote:

*

Now back to the screenshots. Are they misleading?

Is this picture too good to be true?
*
 http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/cmra.jpg 


Only to those used to inferior results. Your past experiences are based on just that. The PAST. The Future is now. Embrace it, don't insult it without any more justification than you self touted "experience". That's at the least, boorish behavior. And to do so is to belittle yourself before the very people you wish to impress with you vast "experience."

Quote:

*

well import the pic into photoshop and tell me what contrast levels you get from the black and whites?
*
I got basically the same excellent figures you did, only I'm excited, not perplexed and blinded by my past "experience." Rather, I'm guided by, and energized by my "ACTUAL" experience.

Quote:

*

Anyway, some of these screenshot are far better than anything I have ever seen and seem to defy everything I know about AV. You guys should really go into business if you have a product this revolutionary!*
Then soon you will have to admit you don't know it all. You easily had the ability to duplicate the process. You've done similar duplication before, prior to posting an "opinion". But not this time, no. This time, you felt your "experience" gave you the right to malign and discredit a person, not just a concept. The longer you delay admitting you went to far, the more like Pete Rose your eventual 'apology' will sound. On the other hand, should you be RIGHT, you would have shown the forbearance that you yourself would demand, and much empahsis would be added to your case.


Face it, Tryg. Calling BS, even to a "Giant of the Industry", isn't the same as calling them or their product a scam, a hoax, or their previously related information a Lie. You did so this time because of your own agenda, and because you believed that it wouldn't matter.


Well it does. CMRA & I have no intention of marketing this concept. It is a gift to all those on AVS who can use it to their betterment. We are not hyping anything except the opportunity to go a route that seems "too good to be true". It is actually, for all those who cannot meet the criteria to build one.

Quote:

*

Or you can compare your results on a number of levels to educate us all on it's week points and strengths. AT the very least try to explain how your screenshots look so utterly amazing.*
I will not quote directly from your own posts, but lest I be accused of trying to "Out Tryg" you, I'll keep it layman-ish.


SuperDeluxe is much like existing High Gain technology that allows certain wavelengths of light to pass through the top layer of screen coating and react / reflect off a silver'ized undercoat, and re-emerge again, blending with the waveforms that reflect more readily from the "white' surface. Products that use this method do not address issues that remain important to average Consumers. They instead curve the screen to enhance ambient light rejection, limiting viewing angle, use a more "light permeable" top coat, which greatly increases the reflecting effect of the undercoat, but also enhancers "graininess", and then price it to the Moon.


I have motive to create an application at once both affordable and exemplary that any Client, rich or poor can aspire to posses. but that is in my domain. Everyone else on AVS, and those who hear of it second hand are welcome to it.


..back to the screen shots.


We have hit upon just the right 'translucent/reflective consistency of Topcoating.


The mirror is the best reflective surface out there, you has been tamed by the Topcoat to the extent that it's undesirable elements are completely gone, leaving all the desirable ones to work their magic. You know full well yourself from previous 'discussions' and a few 'attempts' what are the Good & Bad aspects of using a painted mirror. Why then is is hard to at least give the benifit of the doubt that someone has licked the problems?


Screen Door and pixelation.


The effusive "glow" or "lighting up" of the screen's surface is due to the minute void between layers amplifiying the light through NON- wastage of light energy. Nothing new as far as light is created, just every Lumen available is being used. That is enough to allow the faint grey pixel lines to get 'blown away' by the more powerful light energy derived from the vivid colors and excellent grey to black contrast. Variable Whites are so bright as to offset any "fixed intensity" pale grey that SDE contributes. At least in most instances. Colors are saturated enough to mask and 'faint' line.


Some programs, the resolution thereof, and the camera work and lighting can offset those qualities, but none to the extent that the results are not still better that anything both you, by self admission, and me, by virtue of my "limited" experience have ever seen before.

Quote:

*

Please don't use my quote "far better than anything I have ever seen"
*
Sorry. It doesn't work that way on a Public Forum. Maybe only if you admit to being wrong in the issuance of the statement. That would be admitting error on your part, and where is the chance of that? That statement will come back to haunt you after the Shootout next month. And it will then help justify the expectations of any who care to attempt on as a DIY project.

Quote:

*

but PLEASE educate us.


Although the product might be amazing at a DIY level, these screen shots without any disclaimers are misleading to new people that lack the experience of evaluating over 100 different materials.*
Disclaimers of the potential of variable results, warnings of complex construction issues, and urgings for all to indulge in self experimentations before attempting a full scale project are rife throughout the Threads. You choose not to mention them if you have indeed read through them all. That hasn't happened, has it? But several others have, and have even followed ALL the sage advice given, are now engaged in building the screens, and they and we don't like you denigrating and biased attitude nor your self aggrandizing nature. They may lack your "..over 100 different materials" of experience, but let me tell you, they all were no less skeptical. Just more courteous, and willing to explore the potential. For some reason, that course is not to be considered by you, your opting instead to not only deny, but to degrade and accuse.


I'll not address this issue again in this manner, on this or any other Thread. That is past. We are all too happy here. There will be other options open to me should there be a need, and the situation and circumstances warrant.


Follow your own advice, and ignore this thread. Don't post here again unless asked, or your post contains an apology, or irrefutable insight or proofs to your statements. Don't accuse us of a lack of validation when our public efforts date back 3 months and include over 800 posts between CMRA & myself.


.....and after the Shootout, listen to your Peers on AVS and their evaluations, if you yourself don't attend. Until then, save your "warnings" for those who need them should you be proven correct. To do so prematurely shows you to be biased, unreasonable, and too conceited to believe you could maybe, just maybe, not know it all, or that you maybe, just maybe have not "experienced" everything.


----------



## Tryg

You caught me. I'm a fraud.


I just wish I could make it through your posts in one sitting.


----------



## GreggPenn

After reading Tryg's post a few days ago, I was surprised that a stern rebuttal (to Tryg) had not occurred by now. (Even if presented by CMRA while MM was out-of-town). Without that rebuttal, I had to wonder what was up. Well, that rebuttal has now occurred and it is a doosy. I think the rebuttal was emotional and overdone, but probably understandable -- especially if what you've accomplished is for real. However, I personally don't see how CMRA's subsequent pics (or previous comparisons) address Tryg's accusation. Specifically, that accusation is that the Stuart Little pics have been manipulated).


PLEEEEEAAAAAASE accept my apology in advance, but I have to say that I wondered how the Stuart Little picture could be sooooo darn good. For one thing, if colors grow and diffuse in your new "invention", I wonder how this could happen -- while retaining superb image focus! Even when YOU look at this picture, you have to agree that it appears too good to be true. So, I believe Tryg's skepticism was warranted -- even if poorly presented.


Still, I have to agree with MM's severe disappoint towards Tryg's method of skepticism. It is obvious by his wording that he clearly thinks this is a scam. And, as a "reputable" member of this forum, he could have taken a less negative and empty approach. Additionally, I have read several of Tryg's recent replies to topics (including some of mine) and they seem to be gaining a lack patience and/or proper explanation.


I wonder if Tryg has posted here so much that he is growing impatient or bored with the level of repetitive answers required to stay visible and up-to-date with this forum. If so, it may be understandable. Maybe not. It certainly doesn't excuse accusing someone of fraud -- without posting supporting evidence and explanation. I know I've lost some respect for his opinion -- when presented this way.


Tryg's accusations don't include: the contrast numbers seen in Photoshop, an explanation to readers stating that the picture could not have been (even inadvertently) improved by the camera, or any other list of reasons why there is no way the picture could be that good. When you call "BS" on someone, you better do a better job than that! If nothing else, it demonstrates the lack of attention/explanation I eluded to above.


Now that mud has been slung on both sides of the fence, a resolution is no closer to us, the readers, the open-mouthed babies of the screen forum -- eagerly waiting to gobble up the newest of foods left by the bravest and most talented who've gone before us! (In this case, the Superplex, light-diffusion screen of the future)!


MississippiMan. Your posts above ARE lengthy and emotional -- even if justified. But, I hope you don't take it personally if I request that you and/or CMRA think of a way to demonstrate how the Stuart Little's pictures are truly representative of what you've created. (For example, re-take the Stuart Little pics further back from the screen -- to show they aren't cut/pasted). That would go a lot farther toward refuting the unbacked words presented by Tryg -- than anything else you've said. (Sure, you could tell me to go build my own screen and see for myself. But, that would be a little one-sided).


And, Tryg, if they do that, I think you are going to owe them a HUGE apology.


----------



## BreakStuff

I haven't been following this thread too closely but I think I can give some input...


I do not think that CMRA's screenshots have been manipulated in any way...(prior pm's lead me to believe he doesn't have the most pc experience let alone Photoshop)..


If you followed his early day post's you would realize that his screenshots,quality and especially QUANTITY have improved and increased significantly since the purchase of his new camera (his old camera/screens sucked bad).. I can do the same with my Olympus D-490Z... standard television screenshots that look like crap in person thru my Z1 look superior on my pc, imagine what I can do with htpc!


I must admit that CMRA has been bustin his butt here and I believe he is determined to find the next best DIY screen, but he has to admit that the shots may look a little better on the pc than in person.. But in any regard, I think that he and others are doing a helluva job.


I also think you people should give Tryg a little more respect, he is the "foundation" of this forum and probably has more experience with screens than all the DIY'ers in this thread combined and I am glad to have him here at AVS and to learn from his previous threads...some of us know who the "real" screen god is....


----------



## MississippiMan

Everybody,


I said I wouldn't respond again directly to Tryg in the same manner and vein as before. So this is for the record, and the posters that have taken the time to weigh in on the issues at hand. I commend the responses as being fair, balanced, and straight to the point. Why, one was almost as Long as one of my posts. It is impossible for me not to write something along previous lines and write this posted reply to others on the issue, but I will keep it to a minimum. Afterwards, I will put this Puppy to bed if not provoked into action.


I agree that too much verification is not enough for some. I must leave the retaking of the SL screen shots to CMRA, as they are his & his alone. If my asking can accomplish it, considered it so asked for. But anyone determined to not believe will still say that without 100 wittinesses, he still might be doctoring the images. It's this aspect that I suppose that would rankle CMRA's fur the most, and keep him from complying. Call it pride (...deservedly so...), or call it flipping the finger at what he considers an unnecessary task and validation of his good word. Either might prevent it from happening. But I bet that soon, very soon, there will be many more screen shots from many more DIY'ers. The SD/MM Fusion Gallery was created for just that purpose, not my 'overlong' posts.


(BTW, no one need apologize for reminding me how I can go on. Nor worry about an acid response to a valid and/or well intentioned criticisms. I learn from such things, I do not hold grudges. Just stay out of Northern Mississippi, that's all.   )


A level headed thinker would ascertain that of course, CMRA takes pride in his new screen, and always looks to improve his ability to transfer the image to the PC via camera. And like any Pioneer, he stands to have distractors that resent his pretentiousness in having something better. Of getting there first. I see that attitude on AVS all the time, though not often so overt. It usually comes from newbies who don't really know the score, not from established Icons with 1000's of posts.


But we ALL have bad days. I myself have jumped the gun and been hauled up short by others. Can anyone say I've never admitted my own mistakes, or offered apologies where appropriate?


I agree my posts are long. I speak through the keyboard as most speak out loud. I make my points so there can be no doubting my feeling or intentions. I even try to be a little entertaining. Try, at least.


...and I do respond to request when given with good intent.


Tryg asked for some explanation as to how/why Light Fusion can do what it does. I risked his debunking my reply via his 'experience', yet he pro offered no such missive.


I suggested he attend the upcoming Shootout. No response whatsoever. Once again, I'm willing to risk all before my Peers, in a open exhibition. Shoot, I went last year carrying nothing but a can of Grey Paint, and knocked heads with Stewart FS, Draper, and DaLight. Good 'ol Goo made the best showing, IMO. And I'm still here. Didn't slink away. Didn't rail at the injustice of it all. Instead, I took what I learned there, and from using Goo, and reading Trygs Screen review, and by reading hours of DIY posts by less renowned but just as dedicated AVS'ers who tried and died in their DIY attempts, and then used a little common sense and combined it all to create first an improved "one coater", then a dual layered, two component mix, then a 4 component, 2 layered screen. All were intended primarily for Drywall or Hardboard applications. Plexi was a joint effort by CMRA and I, and we both were floored by the result. CMRA dared to try a mirror. "I" was against it, feeling that the expense was taking it outside the "cheapo" realm we all dwell in. But his efforts produced such an improvement, we all must consider the extra expense as well worth the end result.


Oh, oh. Getting verbose. It WAS enevitable, I suppose.


To the point.


I'm going to purchase CMRA's screen from him, pay to have it shipped directly to mandarax, and show that exact screen at the Canuk Shootout in Feb. as the representation of SuperDeluxe/MM Light Fusion technology. He's planning to spray up a MUCH MO BIGGER example as soon as he can lay hands on the Plexi mirror.


I was going to ship a 5' x 9' Plexi Mirror and just wipe up the floor in front of all the drooling attendees, but shucks, 84 inches of SD/MM Fusion in they're faces should do just fine. Besides, mandarax is the closest thing I can look to as a truly independent source of either validation or crucification. He won't worry about hurting my feelings. He has good naturedly ribbed me already about my 'crusade', but also has wished CMRA & me all the luck in the world in our endeavors.


Who says those Krazy Can- nooks are all stuffed shirts?


Due to my recent sickness & then my ensuing travels, I have a backlog of 4 screens about to blow their covers. 2 Fusions, and 2 SM/MM Drywall screens. To keep things clear, the SSs from them will receive their own thread.


I'm sending CMRA either a Z2 or a 20-HD to make comparable demos.

CMRA's PC is modem challenged, and doesn't even have Photoshop loaded. He has an older copy, but it sits on a shelf, unloaded and unused. I have 10.0 and use it only when creating my literature. Most of it is beyond me. No time to learn. Instead, I use the Image Expert program that came with my Toshiba M81. No chance to fool the world with that! Just Crop, resize, and post. Like CMRA does, and no more.


Soon however, I will post an incredible double exposure pic taken by my local newspaper of a Drywall screen with only MM on the wall over Grey primer. It dates to October, and shows the very screen that caused many old time AVS'ers to deride me for sharing how virtually EVERYBODY at my Home show was "mistaking" it for a 109" Plasma. Some even accused me of lying, and misleading others by touting it's 3D properties. Sound familiar? I brought that 8" x 10" to CMRA when we first met, thinking that would depress him greatly as it was the screen application to beat. But together, we beat it soundly on our first attempt with Plexi using a SM/MM dual layer application. Only joy ensued.


Now to answer a few comments made by others.


Respect for Tryg? Never have I EVER said a disparaging word about him before, opting instead to always credit him as a big part of my inspiration several times on several threads. That must of escaped his attention, probably because he got stuck on one of my other novelettes. Ddog got his accolades too, for his pioneering showed that if great results were out there over a year ago with his methods, they awaited others with like minds and ambitions. We had a small misunderstanding recently, and to his immeasurable credit and character, he removed the offending sentences in his post when I PM'd him "PRIVATELY" with my complaint, as I would always do first when I have a serious 'bone to pick' with a Senior AVS'er. The man has Class with a "C". I look for Ddog V2.0 to be a serious contender for any DIY'er to consider. Tryg's post was essentually a "Mad Cow" hurled at CMRA and our efforts.


Courtesy AND Respect. I may wear a Hat two sizes too large at times, but never so large it covers my eyes to the truth, or at the expense of the feelings and reputations of other AVS members who are not just Lurkers or occasional Posters, but pillars of AVS society. The time we all spend could be going to family and friends, or to work or other pursuits. That we decide to give to the Forum is our choice and our badge of honorable intention. But none of that gives us leave to be A- - Holes.


Founder, Icon, or just Sage Adviser, no one has the right on this Forum to demean another as bluntly as Tryg did CMRA. Flaming is the word for it, and the penalty can be banishment. The Forum Moderators have frequently reminded us of that. Tryg was given the chance to put his proofs on the table. Zilch. To even offer the vaguest attempt to apologize; El Zilcho again. In fact, he still has yet to respond in kind or with any real effort to a single thing I've written or suggested. Only with sarcastic remarks and claims of superiority over us all.


Only Tryg knows best, and what is good for us all.


Only Tryg can decide what is true and what is false.


Only Tryg has the right to flaunt Forum decorum and rules.


For all that he has done in the past, he has garnered great respect from all, including me. For what he has recently posted on this thread, as well as what he has refused to post, he has my contempt. And perhaps the same of a few others. Let him re earn the respect he desires. He deserves none in this matter at present.


Time to move on, up, and away. Now that wasn't too long, or too intense, was it?  


...............and everybody. What happened to this being a "Pic Only" thread?


----------



## b2bonez

Quote:

_Originally posted by Tryg_
*You caught me. I'm a fraud.


I just wish I could make it through your posts in one sitting.*
To hell with the screens, I want a magic camera just like CMRA's


b2b


----------



## postman

You don't need a magic camera, you just need to learn how to use a digital camera.


It took me 30 seconds to go through a handful of shots this morning and find this one. The only manipulation is downsizing to 640x600. Pull it into Photoshop and you'll find 254,254,254 whites in the sky and 0,1,0 blacks in the bushes. All it takes is a properly exposed (or slightly overexposed) shot to achieve those values. My conclusion is that CMRA takes the time to do exposure bracketing or otherwise insure properly exposed photos.


On a separate issue, as a scientist I am much more inclined to listen to CMRA that Tryg. On practically every page of the Superplex threads, CMRA tells people to get out and do their own experiments and reach their own conclusions. By contrast, Tryg (who has clearly conducted careful and valuable experiments in the past) presents his conclusions as law, not to be questioned by mere mortals. Similarly for the other vocal critic ddog, whose latest formula seems to be an opportunity for him to sell paint. There is clearly no profit motive behind the Superplex screens


I'm sorry to see these threads degenerate into the hostility and name-calling of recent posts. For the last few months, they have seemed to me to be scientific discourse of the highest order, and I"ve enjoyed them greatly. I am painting up my test panels (which take a long time to dry in the -10 of Massachusetts these days) and will post my own screen shots as they progress. Just a warning to to the photography neophytes out there, though, I will be taking care to expose them properly and you will find pixels with 254,254,254 and 0,0,0


----------



## Wireless

Here's the issues as I see them and maybe someone could provide some clarification.



1) MM states that the magic screen hides screen door.


Since the projector in question is a transmissive LCD, light is transferred through the panel, the pixels being on or off or some state in between. The grid of the panel is at a certain IRE level, so it would stand to reason that if the grid is at 10 IRE, for example, this passive device (screen) would also hide everything at 10 IRE and below. I just don't see how a passive device can hide only one IRE level.


2) Screen capture at 0,0,0 and 254,254,254


The camera is capturing the dynamic range that it sees. The measurement is not taken from the source, which should have the range stated. According to these photos the Z1 perfectly reproduces absolute black and peak white. This reproduction would equal CRT in it's ability to reproduce absolute black. With the the light leakage from LCD, again I don't see how this absolute black level is possible. At the least it would call into question the effectiveness of screen shots, which we have been debating on this forum since the late 90s.


----------



## Clarence

First, my apologies for originally polluting this gallery thread with my queries about how to take better screenshots and how to improve the image from my DVD.


In hindsight, I should've started a new thread. My original question was in CMRA's One-a-camera, two-a-camera post, but CMRA PM'd me: _"Would you be kind enough to repost this on the "superplex formula" thread where it will get you much more exposure?"_ I see now that I ended up in "Super Deluxe" instead of "superplex".


As far as magic cameras, CMRA also pointed me in the right direction via PM. I pasted a summary of his technique in p4 of this thread:

- Zoomplayer color overlay

- Auto white balance

- ISO 100

- exposure bracketing


I tried those and they do have significant impact on digicam screenshots. I think that AWB does a great job of "balancing" the white and black levels. It's not post-processing, and it's not done to be deceitful.


The low ISO and bracketing also helped. I've also tried the ZoomPlayer color overlay enhancements, but "pre-processing" can easily be overdone, so I'm back to just using default settings.


I support letting this thread get back on topic as a gallery.


----------



## postman

You confirm my conclusion about CMRA's photos (my post is 3 previous from yours). For the record, I do agree with Tryg's assertion that screenshots are really only useful for comparing two or more different screens, and that at the very least one should white balance outside then take photos inside. We really can't tell much about the contrast or color reproduction of Superplex screens from most of the shots in this thread. But I still think it's over the line to accuse CMRA of deceit.


----------



## Tryg

I never accused CMRA of deciet. I said the pictures were misleading.


Secondly, when I get the time, hopefully tomorrow after I finish reading mississipimans last post I will do some experimenting and try to explain why these screen shots look beyond what a digital camera/digitization can physically capture.


I pretty sure that part of it is because the forum software compresses the image when uploaded. The original image just shown from a server will show more of the flaws, less CR and leave it in it's orginal format.


The bottom line is CMRA is probably on the up and up. My problem has always been with the images. Being as amazing as they are it's more of a testimate to the methods of presentation not the screen itself.


postman, if you are such a scientist where is the control group here?


----------



## b2bonez

Quote:

_Originally posted by postman_
*You don't need a magic camera, you just need to learn how to use a digital camera.


It took me 30 seconds to go through a handful of shots this morning and find this one. The only manipulation is downsizing to 640x600. Pull it into Photoshop and you'll find 254,254,254 whites in the sky and 0,1,0 blacks in the bushes. All it takes is a properly exposed (or slightly overexposed) shot to achieve those values. My conclusion is that CMRA takes the time to do exposure bracketing or otherwise insure properly exposed photos.


On a separate issue, as a scientist I am much more inclined to listen to CMRA that Tryg. On practically every page of the Superplex threads, CMRA tells people to get out and do their own experiments and reach their own conclusions. By contrast, Tryg (who has clearly conducted careful and valuable experiments in the past) presents his conclusions as law, not to be questioned by mere mortals. Similarly for the other vocal critic ddog, whose latest formula seems to be an opportunity for him to sell paint. There is clearly no profit motive behind the Superplex screens


I'm sorry to see these threads degenerate into the hostility and name-calling of recent posts. For the last few months, they have seemed to me to be scientific discourse of the highest order, and I"ve enjoyed them greatly. I am painting up my test panels (which take a long time to dry in the -10 of Massachusetts these days) and will post my own screen shots as they progress. Just a warning to to the photography neophytes out there, though, I will be taking care to expose them properly and you will find pixels with 254,254,254 and 0,0,0*
"For the last few months, they have seemed to me to be scientific discourse of the highest order, and I"ve enjoyed them greatly."


I've seen science, I know science and this ain't science, it's haphazard

experimentation with wall paint and mirrors.


This is science.

http://color.psych.upenn.edu/brainar...s/bayesSat.pdf 


b2b


----------



## SensiStar

Quote:

_Originally posted by b2bonez_
*"For the last few months, they have seemed to me to be scientific discourse of the highest order, and I"ve enjoyed them greatly."


I've seen science, I know science and this ain't science, it's haphazard

experimentation with wall paint and mirrors.


This is science.

http://color.psych.upenn.edu/brainar...s/bayesSat.pdf 


b2b*
You have to admit though that alot of discoveries have happened by accident. Penacilin was one of them. You never know.


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by b2bonez_
*

I've seen science, I know science and this ain't science, it's haphazard

experimentation with wall paint and mirrors.


This is science.

http://color.psych.upenn.edu/brainar...s/bayesSat.pdf 


b2b*


Ok, ok. I'm sure everbody has an opinion on what's occurred, but let's let it drop. The thread will survive, and be a place for DIY'er to post their SS results IF we all get back to doing exactly that.


b2b, your correct in saying that your attachment is "science." But it also useless to about 99.9% of all who would read it. Logarithmic equations don't translate well to someone who has to question whether or not they need to have a compressor to spray paint from a HVLP gun. We get that a lot on these threads, ya know.


But haphazard? Hardly. Careful thought and consideration have gone into virtually every step of this process. Anylazation of every aspect of the properties of both the paint and the light that reacts to it, have preceded every step, and the result is not a single example has been 'scratched" as a non-improvement over the previous example. Science should do so well.


Call it laziness if you must, that we do not offer up a detailed scientific thesis. We who have paint on our hands seldom take time to work out equations. And many, myself included, don't feel the need to present over-presented and pretentious posts justifying our positions and our work. The screen shots say it all, for those who trust that we would not try shamming just to impress.


Our greatest concern is that more will attempt & fail at using the right materials in the right way, and the end results will be posted as a condemnation of the entire concept. Some people react that way to their failures, preferring to blame something else besides their own inadequacies.


But we won't let the suffer alone, nor ignore their pleas for assistance. Intrepid souls are at work, whose Fires have been lit by SuperPlex & SuperDeluxe and who recognize the somewhat daunting prospects that lie ahead for many DIY'ers. So they are trying to find appropriate mylar films to replace the sometimes difficult to master Painting processes.


They are doing so in a less than Haphazard manner, though. I'm sure. 


Hey, I hope Tryg and others eventually take the time to evaluate SM/MM & SD/MM screens. I'd love to see Graphs and tables and color charts and Grey Scale examples and all that. Those folks have made a decision that that is what they enjoy doing, and let them. I spend enough time on AVS and at my Keyboard trying to relate experiences and give advice. Too much according to my Significant Other, who just left my side saying, "I hate that crap! That's all you do in your spare time anymore!" I'm not kidding about this. I'm going to have to take some care and cut back on my AVS time, or else be forced to do a 'ddog' on ya all and become invisible for a while.


Speaking of which, everybody should go easy on ddog. He's only doing what others request. I hope he finds a way to offer others the correct paints essential to his mix's success. Yes, he should refrain from doing so on AVS, opting to instead sell it from his own Website, linked to from his posts, but as stated previously, his reputation has others begging him to sell them paint. Even I could find it hard to resist the "bended knee' approach if they were begging to give me money.


In defense of Screen Shots, you just can't win. Don't post 'em and you get inundated with DEMANDS to do so, for everyone wants to "see" before they "Try". Post 'em, and your accused of wasting bandwidth, misleading others, or trying to hype your methods. Essentially, we will continue to have to suffer the fools, and reward the faithful. That's the AVS way....as long as it is kept within the acknowledged guidelines.


So there we. There and back again. Let all who opt to post on this thread please follow the original format. Questions, comments, and Forest Fires should be taken to another related thread, or posted as a new thread that can suffer the resulting replies. I monitor the Screens' thread listings page each day, so no deserving post will go unanswered. Just be sure to title it so as to give us all a clue as to the content, that's all.


I'm now going to go replace a bogus 50-HD PJ, and then meet another local Client who is "begging" that I do a SuperDeluxe for him after seeing the SSs I sent him. He was going to get a SM/MM screen but.................*


I can only hope he's a Divorce Attorney, and is into bartering!


----------



## schmidtwi

Dictionary.com offers a primary definition of science as "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena". Another definition is "Knowledge, especially that gained through experience. One can argue this is exactly what is occuring with the people and their efforts involved in this thread.


Tryg - BTW, science does not require the use of a control group. 


CMRA/MM - keep up the great work!


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by schmidtwi_
*Dictionary.com offers a primary definition of science as "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena". Another definition is "Knowledge, especially that gained through experience. One can argue this is exactly what is occuring with the people and their efforts involved in this thread.


Tryg - BTW, science does not require the use of a control group.










CMRA/MM - keep up the great work!*
I like this Guy.










Hey, here is a split Shot of one of my older Silver Metallic undercoat w/ MississippiMud overcoat, painted on drywall on the Left, and produced spectacularly on a SuperDeluxe Light Fusion screen (Mirror/MM)


If that doesn't show off the difference to a Blind man..., nothing will.


(left shot taken by MM.......Right shot by CMRA)


----------



## Wireless

Are these the same projector?


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by Wireless_
*Are these the same projector?*


Nosir.


CMRA used his Z1 LCD w/700 lumens - 600:1 CR and 8-something x 5-something resolution. $1250.00


My shot was with a Studio Experience 50-HD DLP w/Mustang 2 Chip - 1000 lumens - 1700:1 CR and 1388 x768 Resolution. $5500.00


Lumens are not a Factor. Resolution is not a Factor. Contrast ratios are not a Factor.


Both of us have excellent cameras, his is much more more expensive, mine more practical, but both capable of delivering "accurately" whats on screen to the PC. he does Exposure bracketing, I do not, so that could be a small factor.


But the difference above is too great to be generated by any 'small' factor.



It's the Screen that Screams, "Look At ME!!!"


----------



## Clarence

In order to support keeping this "gallery" on topic, I've moved my questions to a new thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=354587


----------



## Tryg

I'm sorry but I think I have to abondon this topic.


You are now providing screen shots that still compare nothing. Different projectors, exposures etc. This frankly is even MORE misleading than the other screen shots.


I can spend endless hours debating about this but it's obvious to me that my efforts will be fruitless. Sorry but maybe I'll make one of your Superdeluxes and compare it to others I currently have.


Please point me to the exact formula to make this screen.


----------



## pochoboy

Tryg,

go ahead and experiment, I'd like to see your non-biased review of a SuperDeluxe Lite Fusion screen.


----------



## unefined

Quote:

_Originally posted by Tryg_
*Sorry but maybe I'll make one of your Superdeluxes and compare it to others I currently have.


Please point me to the exact formula to make this screen.*
I'd definitely be interested to see how the SD/MM compares to the other screens/samples you have at your disposal. I'd *love* to see how it compares side to side with the Silverstar.....


So, Tryg, when can we expect the next screen shootout review?


----------



## OregonLAN

Quote:

_Originally posted by Tryg_
*I'm sorry but I think I have to abondon this topic.


You are now providing screen shots that still compare nothing. Different projectors, exposures etc. This frankly is even MORE misleading than the other screen shots.


I can spend endless hours debating about this but it's obvious to me that my efforts will be fruitless. Sorry but maybe I'll make one of your Superdeluxes and compare it to others I currently have.


Please point me to the exact formula to make this screen.*
Iâ€™m beginning to agree with Tryg. At first, I thought he was just being an arrogant jerk. After further review, I havenâ€™t seen any definitive â€œside by sideâ€ 1/2 screen comparisons. Comparing 2 screen shots from different projectors and different cameras is like comparing apples to airplanes (doesnâ€™t make sense).


----------



## Ximori

I agree...appreciate what CMRA and MM have been doing...but I think Tryg has been fair in questioning their method of presentation.


----------



## MSwauger

Quote:

_Originally posted by OregonLAN_
*Comparing 2 screen shots from different projectors and different cameras is like comparing apples to airplanes (doesnâ€™t make sense).*
This thread was never intended to be a comparison of anything. It was to be a gallery of SD screenshots. Hence the aptly named ">>> ***THE Official SUPER DELUXE Gallery***


----------



## Adam_H

I'd be very interested in seeing some higher resolution screenshots to check out the screendoor situation. You can't really tell anything from these small attachments. I'd be happy to host some large files if CMRA or MissMan want me to. Just drop me a PM.


I do agree that it is of limited usefulness to look at these screenshots, but its fun anyway. I don't care how good the screen is, a Z1 cannot produce perfect black (0,0,0) and perfect white (254, 254, 254) like in the Stuart Little shot. I am not trying to implicate that anyone is being dishonest, only that the screenshot is in all likelyhood not showing what our eyes will see.


I really look forward to seeing this screen in a shootout. Putting all the arguments aside, MissMan and CMRA have put a lot of work into this screen and it is much appreciated.


----------



## rlindo

well some of the shots look purdy, some look BAD (like your highlight details crushed?) and that all leads to me saying screenshots are pointless. If newbs truly think the z1 will look like that then they are in for a world of disappointment.


I owned the z1 and it never looked as good as some of these screenies and mine was claibrated both in greyscale and gamma and I sue a pretty good screen. The z1 can't produce blacks like that. I don't care what the hell screen material you are using. No screen is going to make the z1 blacks look as good as the top CRTs. Sorry.


I have seen pretty good screenies from bjoren roys bad ass CRT pj and they don't look as good as some of CMRA's shots here. If you people who don't obviously see the problem here really think his magical screen and the z1 looks better than Bjoren's CRT then I have some magical beans to sell you.


I do appreciate a person going out of their way to post all these screenies although I wonder why they don't watch movies instead of post 9.4 billion screenies of the same stuff.


----------



## MississippiMan

First to Tryg,


Other than posting excellent looking screen shots, that irrelevent or no, were indicative of my work and applications thereof, what did I do to deserve your disrespect and discourteous attitude?


Don't you think it's silly to keep criticizing the length of my posts, and pretty crappy to call them "Rantings", and use them as an excuse for not reading further, or abandoning a thread? That's pretty childish behavior, and not in keeping with the "SCREEN GOD" tag a poster put on you the other day.


....and as if your abandoning a thread and not posting on it anymore would keep others from doing so, or cause it to die a quick death?


Even without our disagreement, I'd have to call that a conceited, and self centered statement. Blaming your departure on the length or content of my posts is a cop out, and cannot serve to improve or enhance your standing with Newbies. And isn't it protecting "Newbies' that served as yours and others motive for calling for a Cease & Desist on Screen shots?

(Besides, long or no, no small effort is being made by me creating these posts. And my longest are only directed to those who "need" them.  )


Look at all the CMRA and MM threads and add up the replies. Something on the order of over 80,000 + in just over 3 months. All BEFORE you graced these threads with your presence. They'll be here until they cease to have revelence, and it will be the general Membership and the Lurkers who will decide that time has come, not any one individual.


Anyway, for sure your presence DOES lend a degree of credibility to any thread, but it doesn't "Make or Break" it, if the content and subject is as popular as our threads have been.


If you just keep it civil, and work with us a little nicer, both CMRA and I would bend over back wards to have you take a stab at dissecting or end results. Well, at least I would because I know that beneath that pretentious air, theres a Guy with a passion for HT related Video. Many would love to see you examine SD, and pick it to tiny pieces. But what if the oppisite occurs and you embrace it as a valid and superior DIY screen option? Wouldn't the credibility of SD soar to new hieghts? sure it would, and I for one wouldn't have any problen risking such, since i personally see NO risk, and even though your oftimes a poop, I have never questioned your ability or objectivity before. That would be as silly as saying, "I can't get through your Posts because thier too technical and involved."


Sounds familar, doesn't it?


Your basic persona hasn't changed a whit since I first came onto AVS 2 years ago, but without a frontal assault, it never seemed to be anything more than a person who was "full of them self" and chose to exhibit it by sharing anything and everything he could while building up a reputation as "The Man in the Know". That's is not a fault in a person who must maintain a position of authority on a giver subject or activity. And really never a bone to pick at until recently. Our works will get plenty of exposure and scrutiny at the Canuk Shootout. My question to you "...are you going?" was ignored, or maybe left behind or overlooked due to excessive length. yeah. That has to be it.



Now,


I keep hearing, "The Z1 can't do this and cant do that". and "You cannot create black levels like shown on the Screen shots you posted."


Well, maybe we can and maybe we can't, but unless Gandalf himself is behind the "Magic", something is occuring that many who cannot accept it, also cannot explain away. I know that must be frustrating.


Everybody. The blacks don't come into existence of themselves. The basic elements of the hue must be present at the lens, and if they react a certain way to the surface they come into contact with, they are either attenuated or accentuated, or remain approximately as they were when they arrived. + or - gain is an excepted reality, and contrast enhancing screens are not new, so why post statements that such things cannot exist ir be possible?


No one of us ever claimed Blacks were "Created" were none existed.


I can take a high end CRT PJ and screw up the contrast and brightness levels to the point you'd gag at the image. Or shoot it onto the wrong screen configuration and make a X1 on Raw Parkland look better in comparison.


Who can doubt or deny that?


Perhaps indeed, one of the souls here about who excel at analyzing, and testing through use of specific equipment designed for such can help explain technically "exactly" what's going on. But maybe not. I've see Tryg himself saying, "I'm not sure what's happening, or if the MFG's claims are substantiated by the results, but what I see is definitely an improvement."


Or words to that effect.


So even a expert can fail to put into words the specific factors that make a thing "do what it does". But we/ they, I all know enough to realize a difference, and a difference there is indeed.


CMRA started impressing a lot of people some time ago by getting superb blacks from his Z1 because his ME mix contained Thallo Green. The mix of Grey and green pigments absorb longer light waves and retain them for a nano second longer, allowing through saturation of the darker light for the deepening of shadow detail that would otherwise be lost to too much reflection from a lighter surface.


That's not a scientific answer, but it's based on previously published explanations on light absorption and reflection principles.


You guys believe in your hearts that something is amiss. So you find it based on your past experiences and assumptions. Many feel the SilverStar's claims to be over stated, and that they ignore mentioning the faults..., to a fault. To date, excepting the promo shots, never have I seen a single screen shot, posted for any reason. Pride, comparisons to another screen, nada...nothing. Only words. I know why. the light coming off the screen prevents most "under $1500.00" camera's CCDs from accurately focusing and adjusting to such bright light levels that are surrounded by much darker fields. and who want's to post a crappy looking screen shot anyway? Right?


Old time AVS'ers have learned to hate screen shots because they never could take a decent one themselves. (read: true to the image on screen.) Many are the Lamentations I've read, begging forgiveness for the inadequacies of there posted pics, When ever they DO post them for whatever reason.


Yet more people enjoy seeing a good screen shot, and in doing so decide to attempt a DIY project, than ever do based on conjecture and data alone. Suppose you all ignore your biased past, and take a look at them for what they are. Excellent pictures, whose content, not having been altered in any way, manages to capture more detail and color that any taken before. Where is the fault, or harm, or danger in that? Time and again, EVERYBODY has been warned, "Judge not with your eyes on the Forum, but with examples you yourself produce. Then..., if you like what you see, go for it!"


Gosh Tryg, if you made it down this far, I hope your not suffering.

Consider this. Your own reviews are epics. Much ado about conclusions that could be drawn much quicker. In fact, your reputation could afford you enough confidence from "most' of your readers to accept your dictates and evaluations out of hand, and without a couple dozen charts, color and B&W test panels, and all the other myriad "tools" you employ. I've seen replies that commended your efforts, and replys that condemned them as over long, redundant, and repetitive. Not a lot, mind you, but there have been a few.


So finally I respond to your original Trieste. I WILl attempt to produce at least three 2' x 3' Plexi test panels with the three lead ups to SD/MM Light Fusion. But since my screens go up at different locations, and are created at those locations, it is logistically impossible for me to "side by side" two full size screens. So little tiny examples set against 9' + screen swill have to do.


Lastly, who among you has the gazongas big enough, and the honesty true enough to admit that the screen shots excell above all previous postings? (...actually, a few have already, just before they condemned them as irrelevant.)


If Screen Shots had started out looking as good as our recent ones, they'd be a reference standard these days.


Warning! I just finished setting up a Metallic Silver/ MississippiMud screen/PJ this evening at another client. I took SSs of Gladiator, including the one that sic'd ya all on my case.


Let's see.


Z2 PJ

Samsung DVD w/DVI out (being used, of course!)

9' 2" diagonal screen.

Toshiba 4.2 MP Digital Camera, set to auto, hand held no less



I took one shot with the PJ set on factory, out of the Box, and one tweeked by the "Eyeball Light Spectrograph" method.


It's coming up here in about 1 hour.


RUN !!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Tryg

Ok, I finally made it all the way through one of your posts. Laughing!!!!

Mississipiman, if you don't write fiction for a living you have missed your calling!


Your hyperbole, haphazard reference, overzealous passion and lack of utter facts is well.....beautiful! I'm not trying to rip on you, you honestly do have a talent to your diatribes.


Now for the last time. COMPARE THE SCREEN TO SOMETHING WE KNOW SO MAYBE SOMEONE CAN LEARN SOMETHING!


Canuck shootout? 


Yes, I'm an a$$hole, now get to work!


----------



## MississippiMan

Top left 50-HD on SM/MM on a wall

Top right Z1 on SD/MM LM screen (painted mirror)

Bottom left Z2, Factory sittengs, SM/MM on a wall

bottom right Z2, Eyeball tweekedm SM/MM on wall.


Camera ; Toshiba M-81 4.2 MP Auto Exp. hand held.


----------



## Clarence

Great 4-way comparison. I prefer the lower-right image (Z2 on SM/MM).


Thanks!


----------



## scoob5555

Still hard to argue with the beauty of the LFS (top right), but I can also see how the top left and lower right pics could be very acceptable with some or further tweaking. The LFS has CMRA's jacked colors and saturation, but really shows what a Z1 is capable of with some time and the manual.


----------



## Everdog

Quote:

_Originally posted by MississippiMan_
*Top left 50-HD on SM/MM on a wall

Top right Z1 on SD/MM LM screen (painted mirror)

Bottom left Z2, Factory sittengs, SM/MM on a wall

bottom right Z2, Eyeball tweekedm SM/MM on wall.


Camera ; Toshiba M-81 4.2 MP Auto Exp. hand held.*
Are these just 4 pictures pasted into one picture? Is there any way you can project a picture on to two screens side by side?


----------



## mandarax

Tryg.... rolling them eyes at my Canuck Shootout...


The first phase of the shootout dealing with screens...

We will have 2 Stewart screens, 4 DaLite Screens, 1 Vutec screen, 2 Goo screens,, Any DIY formula that people are recommending and are willing to put to the test... We will have two identical projectors shooting at two different screens from the same source...


Mississippiman is openly going to try and compete with these with not one or two sets of eyeballs but with people with many years of experience but with probably close to or a number exceeding 100 sets of eyeballs. This will be shooting from an identical source on two screens... People will be asked again to fill out feedback forms...as they did last year.. and with that many views at once bias will statistically be removed from the equation.... I personally find it refreshing that someone wants to put forth this effort and let it stand before many members of this forum and let it be judged... not a small amount of work and effort to put forth...


Last year the hyped DIY formula was the Home Depot formula of Silver Stag, Pearlescence combo... a crash and burn victim of the shootout... and also a few fabrics that were being touted as the great new solution went over like a lead balloon..


A point of view of many far exceeds a singular worldview... and in the end it is really up to the individual to decide what they like given their circumstances and HT setup, and equipment. There were no real losers on the commercial screens at the last event. If for instance the people that chose the DaLite HighPower screen as their favorite were writing a review and stated it was simply the best ,,,, would everyone at the event that did not see it the same way be incorrect??? In my showroom I have 7 full screens to view... People that spend the time to view these screens will choose different solutions... even with the same projector and same source on a regular basis... I have my own preference, but never tryg to jam that singular worldview into someones brain and convince them that what their eyes and brain see as less pleasing to be the solution for them.


The last event convinced many people of the importance of the screen... it started out as the major theme of the last event... It was proven without a doubt... the most ardent believers that thought otherwise actually purchased screens shortly after the event. I thought this awareness was one of your major time consuming passions. If there is fault in our process of evaluation please share this. Simply rolling ones eyes shows you believe the event to have no merit.... and also serves to discredit those that are comitted to spending their valuable time at the event, sharing their opinion at the event, and also assisting with the event.

Screen and projector are not mutually exclusive.... and it is for this reason I will still be putting forth an effort of screen review in front of any projector shootout event.


We went through a lot of DIY solutions last year and it did suck up much time... so for those that are interested I will only devote as much time to your DIY solution as warranted by the number of people that have chosen to utilize. I will not have the time this year to personally make up screens.... or frames to showcase these DIY solutions...


The major part of the event this year will be to evaluate projectors... after the screen portion is completed... this will be shooting two different projectors at a time fed by the same source on two identical screens. The best effort to calibrate these projectors on the screen type used will be made the day before the event.


In any event Tryg... I know the procedure as set out with the shootout is valid... I have about 8 emails from people directing me to this thread that I guess value your judgement enough to hilite those rolling eyes... You certainly do not owe me an explanation for it is of no consequence to me ... but maybe for those attending you can as you demand from Mississippiman provide some facts that relate to those rolling eyes... I personally take no offense ... but I guess some did...


Robert


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by Everdog_
*Are these just 4 pictures pasted into one picture? Is there any way you can project a picture on to two screens side by side?*


No, I used 4 PJs, 4 screens, 4 DVDs, and kept my tounge in cheek.






Of course it's really 4 images cut and pasted onto the top of the photo below of the SM/MM screen they all, but the top right, were taken on.


Oh, and welcome to the Forum Everdog! There are a lot of "dogs' on this Forum. And some have sharp teeth and desire to knaw on my leg at times!


MM


----------



## MississippiMan

...a nice shade aof blue, nonetheless.


----------



## MississippiMan

Please. I offer you this, my hand in friendship.



BTW and FWIW


All these Pics are on the Silver Metallic undercoat / MississippiMud overcoat on a wall variation. It was this application that preceeded SuperPlex and SuperDeluxe, and would have reined supreme in the Screen Shot wars had I had a Z1 or Z2 at the time.


----------



## MississippiMan

Do you want to see more?


After this one, you'll have to ask.


----------



## MississippiMan

It's hard not to want to share.


----------



## MississippiMan

I see just a few more you gotta see as well.


----------



## MississippiMan

.......stick 'em once fur MM.


----------



## MississippiMan

....I can.


----------



## MississippiMan

Just a couple more, them I'm off to the same job to hook up the sound. any requests?


----------



## MississippiMan

........., some people can't expectorate without causin' a fuss


----------



## MississippiMan

...can it be true. It's just a wall?


----------



## MississippiMan

...he looks a little worried to me.


----------



## MississippiMan

..she's basically saying, "Your all a bunch a jerks! I'm leaving."


----------



## Tryg

Quote:

_Originally posted by mandarax_
*Tryg.... rolling them eyes at my Canuck Shootout...


Robert*


Robert, the rolling eyes were not at the shootout itself or you. I think it's a superb idea! I cant wait to see the results! and the awakening 


When is it?


----------



## MississippiMan

Have Ticket, Will Travel and kick your Butt!



JKA


----------



## MississippiMan

My ass is sore, or you'd be in for more.


Tryg, your waffling.


Those rolleyes came right after the question. You can't CYA on that one!









The best retraction and apology you can offer would be your own presence. I'd love to Sumo wit cha!










But I really do hope you can objectively view these past shots for what they are. Images cast upon a 109" diagonal SM/MM painted wall by a $2000.00 Z2 PJ using a $330.00 Samsung DVD w/DVI out . PJ tweeked by eyeball, no ambient light.


No tricks, no special camera, or exposure bracketing. (...gotta learn to do that though...) just a set up ANYBODY could easily duplicate. Excepting the application of that darn old gooey Behr Silver Metallic, that is.


I welcome your comments, if any constructive ones are to be had.


When I return this PM, I'll post a few pics addressing viewing cone, (it's 170 degrees, don't cha know!) ambient light rejection, and the like. On only one screen mind you, but I'm working on those Test panels.


----------



## b2bonez

Miss, you are one persistent salesman.


b2b


----------



## mandarax

Tryg...


No worries... like I said ... I don't take anything personal... just responded due to emails received... The last event awakened many... I have personally read some of your shared info on screens with a lot of interest in the past.... It is obvious that you have a pursuit for and passion for sharing information... I get asked all the time ....What screen do you like the best?? The shootout information allows me to state what others selected as their screen of choice rather than bestow or burden them with my own choices.. My own awakening occured as well in that enough people at the last event chose different solutions as their favorite... As it turned out none of the DIY screens ... (not including Goo as a DIY screen) scored to well... That of course does not mean that those results will impact on totally new solutions... I worked with a lab in the USA to make a solution that I would have no difficulty recommending... Unfortunately it is very expensive to make... further I did not wish to answer all the application questions related to providing such a product as it had to be made in large volumes...was expensive to package and provide logistics for... would detract from the timing of other products or offerings... In time I probably sunk over 2 months fulltime of research into it... Luminence is one of the keys to a creating a good product... with no chroma shifting, with brightness uniformity,,, etc,etc. On my base coat... which I sprayed outside... I collected probably over 5000 bugs in just over 2 hours... this when there wasnt too many bugs still alive.... what were all those bugs attracted to? The experience was still good one even tho it did nothing to boost my business net worth...


The event..I am shooting for March... many of the manufacturers as you know will only push the trigger on full production once the shelves have been cleared.... and therefore I am a bit on the mercy of the manufacturer... Hopefully all guns will be blazing in March... The screen manufacturers do not really have much to offer other than some new masking systems... These screen companies will not be the holdup.... just the projector releases... Hell Conan Obrien is making the commitment to come to see us Canucks... Why not come up?? I am a dealer but do not do any marketing poop at the event... Last year we had a bbq and many made some new buds... and met fellow AVS'ers from all over.. which is by far one of the biggest attractions...


Epson..... BenQ... Infocus... Studio Experience... (to name a few) all have some very interesting new models coming out... would rather wait a couple of extra weeks instead of hearing ...well what about this or that model projector a couple weeks past the release date..


Robert


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by b2bonez_
*Miss, you are one persistent salesman.


b2b*
I hope that was meant to be a compliment?


But no matter, thanks for reminding me what NOT to post on AVS. That was the first time in two years I ever made any reference publicly about offering to charge anybody for anything.


I simply got carried away trying to convince him a High gain screen wasn't a good choice for a PJ with under 1000 lumens.


Thanx.


----------



## b2bonez

Quote:

_Originally posted by MississippiMan_
*I hope that was meant to be a compliment?


But no matter, thanks for reminding me what NOT to post on AVS. That was the first time in two years I ever made any reference publicly about offering to charge anybody for anything.


I simply got carried away trying to convince him a High gain screen wasn't a good choice for a PJ with under 1000 lumens.


Thanx.*
No, I wasn't a compliment, it was an observation. An

observation that illustrates the fact that your opinions

are not one of a pure hobbyist without the bias of

professional monetary gain that may or may not effect

the comments that you make.


But, that's my opinion and I could be wrong.


This fellow here tested a few of the DIY options and

was amazed that in his opinion plain ole UPW looked

the best to his eyes.


"For me, the MMud mixes did not turn out well. Images were heavily

biased in the color blue, and not vivid at all.

This was for both the Plexi and non plexi trials.

I have now constructed a 5'x9' (120" diag), 1/2' thick

MDF screen painted with UPW and again put all the samples on

it, with basically the same result :It looks best"

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...readid=349605& 


Now those are his opinions, and he may be wrong too.


b2b


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by b2bonez_
*No, I wasn't a compliment, it was an observation. An

observation that illustrates the fact that your opinions

are not one of a pure hobbyist without the bias of

professional monetary gain that may or may not effect

the comments that you make.


But, that's my opinion and I could be wrong.
*
And indeed you are. To form such an "opinion" based on one comment made on one post out of 700+ over two years is not a normal reaction. My record speaks for it'self, and needs no defense. Only those looking for reasons to doubt or discredit another would even trouble to post such a "opinion".


Remember, B2Bonez Your own Posts are open to scrutiny as well, and some of their contents go some ways to explain your motive for bringing this up. You have a specific bent to wards a certain line of reasoning, and definitely hold camp with others who feel our endeavors, popular as they are of late, don't deserve the attention, credit, or respect, not to mention the bandwidth that they are getting in "Screens"



Quote:

_Originally posted by b2bonez_
*

This fellow here tested a few of the DIY options and

was amazed that in his opinion plain ole UPW looked

the best to his eyes.


*


----------



## b2bonez

"My motives are clean, my consience clear,

and my bank account swelling,

so I must be on the right track."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...42#post2884742 


Sorry Miss, but the fact is you are Pro. And

I don't doubt for a minute that you feel exactly

as you stated above. But the fact remains

that you make money off of this stuff unlike

99% of the others that post here.


And when the hobbyist like myself and others

bring objections to your methods and claims,

the flaming starts.


I don't know if Tryg is a pro or not. But

he doesn't have his company motto in his

sig line either or a link to his company

web site in his profile and www link button.


So if you take offence to this, then so be

it. But then again your a Pro and if the

opinions of us amateur hobbyists offend you

this much, then you should reassess your

position as a professional in a amateur

forum.


Play fair, be nice, be professional.


b2b


----------



## price3

I think the issue I have with the screenshots is that I can't use them to compare 2 different screens. In order for me to do this, I would need an image half on the superdeluxe screen, and half on any old light grey screen, The key to this would be NOT using a cut and paste or any other digital methods of production, but to actually put the 2 screens side by side and take the picture with the same exposure capturing both images at once. Its the only way to remove the camera and the pc from the equation. I for one do not doubt the merits of this new mirror screen, and would try it myself if it didnt have to be sprayed on.


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by b2bonez_

[B


Sorry Miss, but the fact is you are Pro. And

I don't doubt for a minute that you feel exactly

as you stated above. But the fact remains

that you make money off of this stuff unlike

99% of the others that post here.[/b]


...and I make no excuses for that. But my website doesn't mention a single word about selling screens, now does it? Nor do I post a Link to my Web Site on every Post either, as many do. KBK has a link on his Posts to Goo. Where is his loss of credibility and objectivity? Ditto for several who have Custom Home Theater businesses and openly advocate that you "contact them". Even their supporters and followers steer others with detailed questions to them, recommending in their posts that they employ them to do thier work for them instead, which is verboten on AVS. Three separate Reps for Stewart FS pipe in at times with links, biased opinions, and outright sells spiels, but where are you and others then?


No, it is our endeavors that are directed at everyone as a gift that somehow threaten, enrage, or otherwise miff the sensibilities of those who can't even give benefit of the doubt to someone else's efforts or motives, and expect everyone to be a "Tryg" and devote even more time to wards justification. You have tunnel vision directed at a source that you think is fine to discredit and badger because they don't fit into the comfortable realm of what's accepted practice, and do not devote time to wards requested acts of justification instead of getting out there and putting the principals and ideas they represent into action in the real world. THAT is a good definition of a "Professional" anybody, no matter what they do. Non-Professional people can't relate to that mind think, so they cannot objectively make comment on whether or not it is right or wrong to do so. So they usually wind up doing nothing at all.


In two years on AVS I've seen far more individuals fail to accomplish a single worthwhile thing because of the uncertainty others lend to their decisions. We/I'm working to dispel the uncertainty by actually creating works that prove the results in real life and full size, and posting the results for others to make their own decisions. I do so with confidence, and the thanks of my Clients, in my business, and hope that my "non profit'" attempts to do so can do likewise to "professional fence sitters" here on Screens. I stopped posting on Home Theater Builder and Speakers a long time ago due to potential conflict with forum rules, and as well finding it hard to stomach some of the 'un professional' advice others gave out. I chose to ignore the urge to do as you seem willing to so readily do, discredit. Now that's a professional way to act.

Quote:

[B

And when the hobbyist like myself and others

bring objections to your methods and claims,

the flaming starts. [/b]
Your totally wrong on that, and I defy you to find a single post of mine or CMRA where the gauntlet wasn't thrown in our faces first before either responded in a justifiable manner. You can't disguise your bias or lack of objectivity by trying to pass off the responsibility for your's and a "Few" others postings causing others to defend themselves. What you'd really prefer is that they throw up their hand, cease posting themselves, and go away, leaving you to your own little thrones on AVS. That would be a real ego boost, now wouldn't it.

Quote:

[B

I don't know if Tryg is a pro or not. But

he doesn't have his company motto in his

sig line either or a link to his company

web site in his profile and www link button. [/b]
Forum rules allow that. Most post links under their signatures after every post. That is NOT allowed, but is rife across the forum. You don't see mine, do you? And without one checking out a profile, would you have had a clue as to what my listed Motto meant? You bringing that into this issue only serves how desperately you must dig to justify your position

Quote:

[B

So if you take offence to this, then so be

it. But then again your a Pro and if the

opinions of us amateur hobbyists offend you

this much, then you should reassess your

position as a professional in a amateur

forum.[/b]
Rather, you should reassess your position as a worthwhile contributor of any type if you continue to ignore the obvious. You continue to ignore the open request by this this Threads' starter to keep it focused on a specific subject. You refuse to take your posts to a more appropriate thread when asked, you constantly Badger and repeat yourself without really saying anything other than derogatory comments.............; as if that is YOUR profession.


If it wasn't for the "professional" input and support non-professionals receive from many professionals who follow forum rules, you and others would be totally dependent on the opinions and methods employed by 'amateurs", many of which are no more correct in their assumptions or directed in their comments that you seem determined to be. Enthusiastic, but all to often misdirected. That's why so many responsible AVS'ers suggest that you "Go Ask so & so" a "professional". I suppose they are wrong in doing so as well.


I've been on AVS long enough to see many whose main focus is to constantly question everything as a lie, refuse to do their own research, and generally enjoy disrupting the flow of information by inserting their own agenda. That they get responded to at all is merely a courtesy that others extend to them. It isn't necessarily deserved though.


Now, will YOU continue to ignore the purpose and content of this thread after being asked to post your own thread with your own questions and comments? If so, you condemn your own action and attitude.

Quote:

[B

Play fair, be nice, be professional.

b2b [/b]
Easy for you, one of the 99% to say, but of course, your exempt from that, obviously, and don't deserved to have your objectivity questioned as you so readily do others..


You have no mission you can accomplish here on this thread except disrupting the flow of images that this thread was intended. That was obvious from the beginning and plainly shows your utter lack of courtesy, respect for others wishes, and a desire to make yourself heard, regardless of anything else.


Basically, your being " a professional pain in the ass.', no matter how you sugar coat it.


Take your 'objective' questions, even accusations and proclamations to your own thread, and they will be responded to if pertinent. Your only motive to continue doing so here is to force your opinions on those who don't wish to be bothered on a thread with an entirely different focus.


----------



## ddog

MississippiMan,

quote


Oh and dDog....,

Watch out how you make mention of selling paints. These Guys are likely to call the Pound on ya!


While I appreciate your guidance, I would be pleased if you would leave my user name ( me ) out of your posts. Oh and I would really like it if you would stop referring my user name ( me ) to your dogs(that you're taking for a walk). You have done so on many occasions.


Thanx


Ddog!!


P.S. Do to a very heavy work lode I will not be attending your Canadian shoot out. Thanx for the invite.


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by ddog_
*MississippiMan,


While I appreciate your guidance, I would be pleased if you would leave my user name ( me ) out of your posts. Oh and I would really like it if you would stop referring my user name ( me ) to your dogs(that you're taking for a walk). You have done so on many occasions.


Thanx


Ddog!!


P.S. Do to a very heavy work lode I will not be attending your Canadian shoot out. Thanx for the invite.*
It's not my shoot out, but Mandarax's I live in Mississippi, don't cha know.


But the request is so noted and easily done. Although there may come times where the reference is called for, it will be done respectfully, if done at all.


..well, why not send us a sample of your mix. I'll HVLP spray apply it with utmost care and stack it up against everything else. Mandarax will vouch for my integrity. It's a chance to strut your latest, and cement opinion in it's favor. Or......well, you know. But that's the chance we all take, Mfg. & DIY'ers alike.


Are you game?


MM.


----------



## ddog

Quote:

_Originally posted by MississippiMan_
*So noted and easily done. Although there may come times where the reference is called for, it will be done respectfully, if done at all.


..well, why no send us a sample of your mix. I'll apply it with utmost care and stack it up against everything else. It's a chance to strut your latest, and cement opinion in it's favor. Or......well, you know. But that's the chance we all take, Mfg. & DIY'ers alike.


Are you game?


MM.*
That's a mighty big ego you've got there.


After reading throw all your past post and watching you develop that ego (you should do it yourself sometime) it just reminded me how glad I am that I took some time away from here and just sit back an watched movies.


Believe me I understand this hole "Screen God" high that your on. You'll soon realize that force feeding people with this "get in line to praise your holyness or drop off the face of the earth" dictator ship of an ego you've got is taking over your passion for the cause. It's like sitting on a beach ball in a swimming pool or a marriage, it takes finesse not ego to balance your feelings twords how the rights and wrongs make you feel and act. I'm sure you have a great screen but, you have to let people have and voice their own opinions other wise it's your ego getting heart not professionalism responding.


Anyways, I have a bad habit of giving advice to those who that didn't ask for it in the first place. With that I apologize.


I could really care less how my screen paint fares out at your shoot out but if you PM or Email me your address and the date and time you need it by I'll see what I can do. Hell maybe ( I'm sure with your energy) you can make something better.



Thanx


Ddog!!


----------



## b2bonez

"Basically, your being " a professional pain in the ass.', no matter how you sugar coat it."


If my opinions and comments offend you this much, then I can only

suggest to click on the "report this post to a moderator" link

and ask that I be banned from the forum for offending you.


If they kick me off, then fine, it's their forum not mine. I really don't

care.


Again I ask - Play fair, be nice, be professional


b2b


----------



## MississippiMan




> _Originally posted by ddog_
> 
> *That's a mighty big ego you've got there.
> 
> 
> After reading *throw* all your past post and watching you develop that ego (you should do it yourself sometime) it just reminded me how glad I am that I took some time away from here and just *sit* back an watched movies.
> 
> 
> Believe me I understand this *hole* "Screen God" high that your on. You'll soon realize that force feeding people with this "get in line to praise your holyness or drop off the face of the earth" dictator ship of an ego you've got is taking over your passion for the cause.
> 
> *


----------



## swaites

Wow! It appears that great ideas are not a good thing here at AVS! After reading through all the posts, I have yet to find anyone who has built this screen BEFORE ranting about the concept. Well, it has made me want the SM/MM Superplex more! I only hope that others who are interested in this screen will create one and post screen shots to support the idea.


I should also mention that I have communicated with MM on a couple of occassions and do not agree that he has an ego. He has always been very helpful and willing to answer my questions.


CMRA/MM

I'm working on a Valspar equivalent to MM. Once I have a match, I am going to prepare a demo screen that will show the differences between SM/MM on a board, a SM/MM Superplex and a Light Fusion.



Thanks for sharing your idea with AVS!


----------



## Jazz B.

I canâ€™t believe that this actually has to be said in this forum. GROW UP! Why has this CRAP gone on for this long already?!


After reading the gazillion posts here it just makes me shake my head at some of the comments being posted. Mississippiman and CRMA have bent over backwards answering the same questions over and over againâ€¦patiently I might add. For what other reason than to help us? What they have presented is a DIY solution for a screen. Thatâ€™s it! Why read anymore into that? Have either of these gentlemen asked for money in exchange for the paint formula? No! Was there ever a catch? No! It was either take it or leave it. Therefore, as far as Iâ€™m concerned, there should never be another post accusing them of â€œtrying to make a profitâ€.


Iâ€™ve also noticed that a lot of people want to be GUARANTEED the results before they jump into this and spend $200. If thatâ€™s the case then get yourself a store bought screen! MM and CRMA have constantly advocated making up samples before doing a full size screen. In the course of 6 months how much do you spend on Junkfood? Booze? Smokes? Computer Upgrades? Etc. Iâ€™m sure itâ€™s a lot more than the $40 it will cost you in materials to do some samples. If you arenâ€™t capable or canâ€™t afford to even do this then DIY is not for you.


Before anyone starts on me, this post is not aimed at anyone in particular. Itâ€™s just an observation that Iâ€™m sure has been made by many. All this bickering is interfering with the knowledge that I could potentially gain in my quest to have a great screen. Iâ€™m sure there are more than a few people that will agree with me on that one.


If the purpose of this argument is to open the eyes of the newbies or â€˜save themâ€™ then Iâ€™m afraid you have a lot more work ahead of you. Whoâ€™s gonna hold their hands through the rest of their life if a screen choice is such a tough decision to make? Am I the only one who made into adulthood with a few bumps and bruises and still lived to tell about it? Let people make their own decisions as you did for yourself. Let them weed through all this information and decide whatâ€™s right for them. If this SuperDeluxe is as horrible as some people make it out to be then why not let MM and CRMA dig their own grave? Only time will tell if this is the be-all end-all or just another flash in the pan idea. But, if it does turns out to be the next big thing then all youâ€™ve done is make an ass out of yourself for opening your mouth in the first place.


To all the Saviors out there, I hope you have a lot of time on your hands to steer these lost souls in the right direction because the rest of us ae busy making a screen...


Jazz!


----------



## tobz67

Bravo Jazz! Well said.


CMRA and MM - *thank you* from this humble soul for the time and effort you both have put in to helping those of us who are willing to experiment with the things you carefully outlined (in PDF format to boot!).


If you're ever in Tempe, there's a couple cold ones on the house waiting for you!


----------



## mikecazzx

Jesus, finally skimmed all the posts to the end. The greatest thing is in over a million words no one even mentioned if this works for CRT's - the mirror SD/MM method. Well I know it would work - but with CRT being damn near perfect as it is would it add anything positive?


After all this is called SCREENS and not


MAKE YOUR DIGITAL PROJECTOR PERFORM BETTER WITH $800 WORTH OF MATERIALS FROM HOME DEPOT


CRT owners do read this forum called SCREENS.


If they (Mississississiissiissiisppi Man and CRMA "screenshot uploader all day and night") have created something that looks as good as it does - by now a major company has stolen the idea and is getting it ready to ship thier product called "Silverstar Luminesense". (I will sue if I see that name on it)


Meanwhile I am falling asleep trying to make sense out of 9 pages of threads.


What a waste?


So does it work for a crt or would it just hotspot out?


Did they make it with multiple mirrors therefore leaving a seam in it?


Was thre not a post 1000 posts ago that said he saw it in person and it was barely better than what he was using?

Why didnt that KILL this whole SD MM thing right there?


----------



## SlackerX

mikecazzx,


You seem to be disgruntled just from having read the thread. No disrespect intended, but I have a feeling that you didn't read it too thoroughly because the questions that you've asked have already been answered (more than once in some cases...).


There have been several people so far who have just purchased a piece of Plexiglas and rolled the paint with a paint roller or sprayed it with a simple Wagoner Power Painter.


None of those people spent more than a couple of hundred dollars and a few days on that project. Some people are starting to experiment with just mirrors and mirrored acrylic or Plexiglas, which is bringing the time/effort and costs (in many cases) down to a minimum. To be honest, I'd bet that it wouldn't really cost that much to have a company professionally spray a mirror or mirrored acrylic/Plexiglas in the manner necessary to complete a screen anyway. I've had many items professionally sprayed or powdercoated and I've never spent more than $40--$150.00, depending on how large the item was. The only reason anyone should be spending more than a couple to 3 hundred dollars or so would be because they really want to do everything themselves from scratch... BECAUSE this is DIY, you should depend upon your own ingenuity, creativity and common sense. Curiosity led you here, don't check it at the door because so much information has already been left at your feet by these guys. If you don't want to spend a lot, then don't. That's entirely up to you.


The only way that you're going to be able to tell if this "screenshot uploader all day and night" thread is really worth your time to read it is to try some small scale experimentation yourself. If you've actually read all of the threads, or even just the "formula" thread, you can easily see that such experimentation will cost you very little compared to the potential benefits that you may reap and education about screen material, color and the behavior of light that you may gain just from trying.


Some people want to tinker and educate themselves. Some people just want to buy something pre-fab and have done with it. You DO NOT HAVE TO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY TO GET DECENT RESULTS. That seems to be the truth of the matter. Definitely not $800.00... Admittedly, some people have gone, IMO, a bit overboard before they realize what they've spent in time and money. All I can do is thank them for giving so much to the cause and for their invaluable feedback. Now it is up to people who are interested to learn from their successes and failures, otherwise it WOULD have been a waste. I'm SURE that you must be interested, otherwise, why read through "9 pages of posts?"


So, in conclusion, I'll ask you to go back and read again (carefully!)--especially the Superdelux Formula threads. There is much to learn from all of the threads, including the comments from the detractors. Another thing to watch for soon is a shootout between the screens being discussed and some name brand, pre-fab screens that will be taking place soon. I keep coming back and checking on this thread just for the interesting commentary and comparisons (also hoping that they'll post some good Lord of the Rings or Matrix trilogy shots!).


Anyway, I hope you don't end up too discouraged. I have a feeling also that you may be able to benefit even if you have a CRT projector. Have fun!


----------



## mikecazzx

For sure I was frustrated having to read through all the posts, especially the ones that were very long only to find ot the person who saw in realtime WAS NOT IMPRESSED...I like everyone else was impressed with CMRA's screenshots.


Possibly wrong here: as far as I know there still are no CMRA screenshots that show the regular light spillage, something in the background, lights partially on, someone standing in the frame etc. It would be nice to see what it looks like from different distances and working in a room.

If there are screenshots that show this please let me know.


Also, with the amount of time they have put into making this - you would think someone would have said "Hey let me call so and so and he can try it on his CRT" just to see.


If this is a screen simply to mask all the defects of chip projectors then I can go back to finishing up my room and just project on the wall or B/O cloth. 2nd option if affordable would be High Power.


Now...if just once they had discovered it improves a CRT in some odd way - then I would be making samples and looking for big a** mirror.


----------



## SlackerX

Again, with all due respect, I'll say that this is a DO IT YOURSELF screen idea. If you need to find out if it works with a CRT, contact them to arrange a test or try it yourself. It isn't incumbent upon others to do it for you. The people who have tested so far have digital projectors. If you want to know how it works on a CRT then PLEASE do so because I'm sure that others may be interested. I'm not sure what the issue is here because it wouldn't cost more than $30 or so (at most) and some minor shopping around to do a small experiment yourslef. Relative to the cost of most projector setups that people post on the forum, that is absolutely a miniscule investment...


There are no CMRA screenshots that show light spillage, but there are screenshots from others, including MississippiMan (though not with the mirror/plexi variant), that do show this and even show people standing right in front of the screen. If you look, you'll find them. The mirror/plexi variation is new and I'm sure that such screenshots will come.


Don't go on the opinion of one person (or possibly 2?). Wait for the shootout. Everyone else is waiting for that and those who are not are experimenting because they want to try it out. Nothing wrong with that at all and we are learning from them that there may be even more variations that can improve image quality depending on the particular projector and conditions involved. It's all relative in the end.


You should also remember that screenshots will never tell you the whole story. Even though I've been following the thread and others for a couple of weeks now, and plan to do some of my own experimenting as soon as I purchase my projector, I have no illusions that this is some miracle discovery. I recognise that I will only be fully able to see the drawbacks or benefits when I try it myself or otherwise see the results in person. I'm sure that is the reason why both CMRA, MississippiMan and others who have posted here are constantly advocating that you do SMALL EXPERIMENTS FIRST. They ceaslesly do this, but are still bombarded with people asking why they should go out and buy a huge mirror from Home Depot or purchase an air compressor and power sprayer retailing around $200. The point is that you don't need to. If you had read through all the posts, you will understand this.


Anyway, I'm just trying to fill you in on the impression that I have after reading all of this stuff. The discussion has been and continues to be interesting. I hope it continues.


Thanks,


Kadi

(Tucson, AZ)


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by mikecazzx_
*For sure I was frustrated having to read through all the posts, especially the ones that were very long only to find ot the person who saw in realtime WAS NOT IMPRESSED...I like everyone else was impressed with CMRA's screenshots.


If this is a screen simply to mask all the defects of chip projectors then I can go back to finishing up my room and just project on the wall or B/O cloth. 2nd option if affordable would be High Power.


Now...if just once they had discovered it improves a CRT in some odd way - then I would be making samples and looking for big a** mirror.*
Mike,


Watch ou! Frome the post above, the concept is starting to generat some avid and expressive followers who are not afraid to "tell it like it is!"


Keeps me from doing it all the time. Well, almost.  


You really DO need to review the entire SuperPlex thread, and Scoobs Sliver One Coat thread if you want to know enough to make confident decisions on your own. If not, you will re ask many questions and request much documentation that already lies within those aforementioned posts.


Things have progressed a long way and requests to review often come off as, "do all my work for me," which is unfair to all those that do review and digest before posting..


That being said: here is a short review.


SuperPlex uses Behr (or similar) Silver Metallic paint to create a reflective surface on the "rear" of Plexiglas for certain specific light to be reflected off and recombine with other light that reacts more specifically to the leading surface toward the PJ/room. (MississippiMud i.e. MM)


Actual Mirrors were the next step, had been tried before in various attempts by others, and either by design or dumb luck, MM worked well to both allow and prevent the specific light transfer levels needed without the much more highly reflective mirror application from 'overdriving' the concept into Hot Spot territory. As it is, getting the correct amount on of MM is the trick.


Plexi seemed both the most affordable and readily available material to use at first, and with SM/MM applied, does exactly the same thing that Super Deluxe Light Fusion (SD/MM LF ) does..., only less of it. (...not as extremely "glowy".

A good reference to what both do is to compare looking at a great 35 mm photo printed on paper, the the same photo when viewed as a slide transparency. With light behind it, the image seems much more 3-dimensional and color more vivid.


Then, the ever advancing CMRA bought a large Wardrobe mirror (very thin, not too heavy, not all that expensive) sprayed on MM, and SuperDeluxe was born. Still gloom & doom about the cost, weight, and availability of larger Mirrors put a temporary damper on things, for about 1 week. Then others researching the Web discovered affordable "Plexiglas Mirrors" in sizes up to 5' x 10' ! Much lighter, easy to cut to size, this application now stands as the "reference" material to use for the "BEST" results, albeit at greater cost than clear plexi, and at considerably more expense than putting coats of SM on a wall or board over Grey primer, then additional coats of MM on top to create SM/MM LF WallVision.


It works as good or better than any MFG screen, and produces an exceedingly bright and vivid image. But not as good by 1/2 as SuperPlex, and Superdeluxe is about twice as bright, IMO.


Some may not want such a bright screen, preferring the more muted levels familiar with DLPs as apposed to LCDs. One must remember, or consider if just coming on to this all, that this application was originally intended to improve the performance of low lumen PJs (800 and below) with meager Contrast ratios , (800:1 and below). Many of the affordable starter PJs, of primarily LCD design fit into those parameters.


X1's and other starter DLPs (usually 800x600 res jobs with 1000 lumens & 1500:1 + Cr's) still stand to gain a lot of added performance, as well as the owners save a bundle on a Mfg screen, by using or designs. But a few of the DLP Pjs like the X1 w/3000:1 Crs' can produce a fairly good image on a flat white wall. But don't fool yourself, anybody, into thinking there would not be a significant difference between even the SM/MM LF WallVision painted wall application and any plain whit wall.


Basically, if you spent under $3000.00 for your PJ, you a cost conscious individual, and to get any good Mfg screen to match up with the performance aspects of your PJ for under $1000.00 would be ideal. Choose the most expensive route of Light Fusion to go, and include buying a Spray Paint rig to do it right as well, and total, you'll still spend less than $700.00. Roll on the paint, and for a huge 9' x 5' Plexiglas Mirror LF Screen, expect to top out with all expenses included at about $375.00.


>


>>>>>>>


So you can pick your application:

(est. price include shipping and all materials need to make screen, excepting the cost of purchasing or rental of Spray equipment)


SM/MM Painted on a Wall or Board approx: $80.00

SM/MM rolled on Plexi up to 8'x 4' approx: $190.00 (same if you can spray)

SD/MM rolled on Plexi Mirror up to 9' x 5' approx: $250


Add at least $75.00 to each price of Clear or mirrored Plexi if you want the largest sizes available.


Ok, there you have it, mikecazzx Run or walk to your nearest Home Depot and join us in all the fun.


----------



## PerryH

I don't think the issue here is that people don't appreciate Mississippi Man's and CMRA's contribution to the forum, it is more a matter of presentation.


You could attribute it to zealous exuberance over the screen they have come up with or to less commendable reasons (I don't know what those would be though). I think the medium of an internet text forum makes it impossible to tell which attribution would be correct.


I think, however, that overtly bragging posts and gauntlet tossing challenges to a screen smackdown rub (at least some) people the wrong way when they are repeatedly subjected to them an adequate number of times.


Posts that describe the screens again and again in a nothing but glowing (no pun intended) car salesman esque manner hurt ones credibility (sort of like the door to door vacuum cleaner salesman or Amway guy.) Heck they might be right, but their excitement leads to you losing faith in their ability to be objective.


Again, I appreciate the information and will try this on a sample of plexiglass and maybe a small mirror when I get the chance, but a little temperance to the rhetoric would be less likely to make one sound like they are touting the benefits of a parcel of questionable real estate.


I for one, think those screenshots would be far more helpful (as helpful as screenshots can be) if they had other materials laid on top of the screen to compare with like:

1) a piece of something that is matte white

2) some of the free samples that are easily obtained from the screen manufacturers (like Firehawk, HCCV, Hi-power, Silverstar [not quite as easily obtained], etc.)


Thanks for sharing your efforts with the forum.


----------



## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by MississippiMan_
*Mike,


(same if you can spray)

SD/MM rolled on Plexi Mirror up to 9' x 5' approx: $250


Add at least $75.00 to each price of Clear or mirrored Plexi if you want the largest sizes available.


Ok, there you have it, mikecazzx Run or walk to your nearest Home Depot and join us in all the fun.*
You found a perfect way to describe it. A 35 mm photo on paper verses a projected transparency.


Thats it. It glows.


Perfect description.


----------



## PerryH

I've got something for you guys to think about. Check out the attached image.


It seems that this configuration could lead to a blurry image at the bottom of the screen if too thick of a substrate is used. (Obviously, my example is exaggerated.)


Perhaps this helps remove (at least the horizontal lines of) screen door.


However, even very thin mirrors will present a "ghost" image. This is what telescopes use expensive first surface mirrors. For example, get real close to your medicine cabinet door and try to focus on individual hairs on your head (seeing double?) So ... this might affect the projected image clarity toward the bottom of the screen even for the thicknesses being experimented with here.


----------



## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerryH_
*I've got something for you guys to think about. Check out the attached image.


It seems that this configuration could lead to a blurry image at the bottom of the screen if too thick of a substrate is used. (Obviously, my example is exaggerated.)


being experimented with here.*
Then maybe use a table mount?


----------



## PerryH

Then you would get the same situation at the top of the screen. I.e., just turn the image I posted upside down.


----------



## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerryH_
*Then you would get the same situation at the top of the screen. I.e., just turn the image I posted upside down.*
Yes but the effect should be reduced by exactly 1/2 therefore 1/2 as bad.


----------



## SMP01

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerryH_
*I've got something for you guys to think about. Check out the attached image.

*
A couple of things this diagram does not show that would reduce the potential blurriness at the bottom.


The plexi most people are talking about is 1/8 thick. I don't know about mirrors.


Your diagram does not seem to show any refraction as it enters the glass. Refraction will angle the light to be more perpindicular to the reflective backside. This will reduce your blurriness.


But what stands out most for me is the scale you use to demonstrate this. Most projectors are 12-13 ft back. That puts this demo screen at about the same height of 12-13ft and a full foot thick. Even a tall 4:3 AR screen at 12-13 ft back would be about 60-65" high for most applications or less than half the height that you've shown. Even less for wider aspect ratios.


My point in this is that you probably are correct at some level, but I doubt you'll notice it. Maybe someone who's knows more details on this could calculate what the maximum offset would be and could you see that offset sitting 14 feet back.



Steve


----------



## PerryH

The diagram was obviously not intended to be to scale. I purposefully exagerated things to get the point across. I think the light will "bend" a little as it goes into the plexiglas, glass, etc. Again I was attempting to convey my thought.


If someone knows the index of refraction for plexiglass (possibly available) and the top coat (probably not available) then I can figure out what the offset would be. 


However, I wanted someone that has made one of these to take a look to see if this was actually happening. It may not, as the top coat may diffuse the light, but it would seem that this would be bad as well?


At any rate, I thought someone might get close to the screen and take a look at the SDE at the top and see if it is different at the bottom to tell if something like this is going on.


----------



## PerryH

I just thought of a way to tell if what I describe is happening - or at least an extreme case.


Get a laser pointer and take it up to the screen with you and shine a glancing blow to the screen. If you see more than the one dot at the point it initially hits the top coat or a bigger dot (a bit long/skinny in the direction you are aiming the laser) then this might be happening when projecting on it (granted - at a lesser angle of incidence and less noticeable effects.)


----------



## PerryH

Quote:

_Originally posted by mikecazzx_
*Yes but the effect should be reduced by exactly 1/2 therefore 1/2 as bad.*
How is that? It would be just as bad, but in the opposite direction (if it exists at all.)


----------



## SDB

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerryH_
*Get a laser pointer and take it up to the screen with you and shine a glancing blow to the screen. If you see more than the one dot at the point it initially hits the top coat or a bigger dot (a bit long/skinny in the direction you are aiming the laser) then this might be happening when projecting on it (granted - at a lesser angle of incidence and less noticeable effects.)*
I already did this with a slightly different combo of materials on and off axis and it had little if any effect to the focus of the first surface "dot". It gave the effect of making the "dot" slightly larger but that was simply adding more to the reflective "glow" which seems to be one the enhancements to the image from what I'm understanding and not a detractment.


I believe my mirror was also thicker than the current solutions too wich would furthur decrease the effect as well.


Is detractment even a word?


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Is detractment even a word?
It can now be since you provided sufficient contexturalementization.


----------



## SDB

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*contexturalementization*
Don't they have a pill for that now?


----------



## SlackerX

Quote:

_Originally posted by SDB_
*Don't they have a pill for that now?*


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by SlackerX_

contexturalementization

Don't they have a pill for that now?
**
Yep, and SlackerX got his name by reversing the product's syllables!


----------



## SlackerX




----------



## toxic candy

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerryH_
*I've got something for you guys to think about. Check out the attached image.


It seems that this configuration could lead to a blurry image at the bottom of the screen if too thick of a substrate is used. (Obviously, my example is exaggerated.)


Perhaps this helps remove (at least the horizontal lines of) screen door.


However, even very thin mirrors will present a "ghost" image. This is what telescopes use expensive first surface mirrors. For example, get real close to your medicine cabinet door and try to focus on individual hairs on your head (seeing double?) So ... this might affect the projected image clarity toward the bottom of the screen even for the thicknesses being experimented with here.*
this is the exact effect we want actually !!!... with a thin substrate (1/8 inch), the effect shouldn't be that bad.... and it should reduce the screen door of your projector. It will slightly shift the pixels so the screen door will be partially eliminated, without blurring the image too much.

It is still better than defocusing, since the blur will be progressive as you go to the edges of the screen (out of the axis of the projector).


Pierre


----------



## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by MississippiMan_
*rlev,


Proud you make me, and proud you must be. Those are and current Parkland owners to the discovery. They are a particularly cheap crowd, and will love this upgrade!


Spread the word! Not just the Silver Metallic! *
I think I agree. I am now interested in this option.

(Unless its just as hard to find a 10' 16:9 piece of Parkland as it is to find a mirror that size?)


Gettysburg lacked contrast and clarity, but the other shots seemed excellent IMHO.


I am CRT owner - and this might be a better DIY project than BO cloth - no stretching eother which is nice.


I willl be contacting RLEV for his overall thoughts on the improvement vs. BO cloth or bare Parkland.


----------



## mandarax

You may wish to go with a Sintra board instead of Parklands...


It also comes in a 5 * 10 Sheet and in three thicknesses.. Base is a titanium white.. provides a good bite for paint.. and is widely available throughout North America..


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by mandarax_
*You may wish to go with a Sintra board instead of Parklands...


It also comes in a 5 * 10 Sheet and in three thicknesses.. Base is a titanium white.. provides a good bite for paint.. and is widely available throughout North America..*


Yep. You want to listen to mandarax. I do. He's been doing this stuff far longer than I. He just keeps it hidden above the Border in the hinterlands.


----------



## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by mandarax_
*You may wish to go with a Sintra board instead of Parklands...


It also comes in a 5 * 10 Sheet and in three thicknesses.. Base is a titanium white.. provides a good bite for paint.. and is widely available throughout North America..*
SINTRA board? What is it? Why is it better than Parkland?


I see it comes 6x10 which is a good reason to buy it.


I am on thier website but I am guessing its hard to find near Chicago ?


It also says HIGH GLOSS which cant be good for projection.


----------



## penticton102

wow what a thread! must admit i learned a few things, however i wonder how much the bar tab is for all the beer needed for this pi$$ing/bash fest.........


----------



## PerryH

The Sintra is somewhat more expensive than the Parkland. I got a quote from a local plastics supplier ...


3mm thick 5x10 = $65


6mm thick = $127


----------



## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerryH_
*The Sintra is somewhat more expensive than the Parkland. I got a quote from a local plastics supplier ...


3mm thick 5x10 = $65


6mm thick = $127*
How does 3 MM compare to the PARKLAND at .060?


The 10 x 6 size would indeed give me enough to do a true 16:9 at 10' wide so this is exciting.


Anyone know if its shiny? Somewhere on thier site it said gloss finish - no projection person would want gloss so I am not sure why this is being recommended?


----------



## PerryH

I think ... the 3mm sintra would be twice as thick.


I had a small sample that I can't seem to find right now. It is much more rigid than parkland (from what I know about parkland). It think I remember it having a smooth side and a textured side, but I'm not sure.


This is not something that you can roll up and throw in the back seat of the car. It will need to be carried as a big flat sheet (in other words - a big pain in the butt).


----------



## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerryH_
*I think ... the 3mm sintra would be twice as thick.


I had a small sample that I can't seem to find right now. It is much more rigid than parkland (from what I know about parkland). It think I remember it having a smooth side and a textured side, but I'm not sure.


This is not something that you can roll up and throw in the back seat of the car. It will need to be carried as a big flat sheet (in other words - a big pain in the butt).*
OK isee now I can get FORMICA in that size too - thats another good option - matte white -


----------



## ScotWithOne_t

.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by toxic candy_
*this is the exact effect we want actually !!!... with a thin substrate (1/8 inch), the effect shouldn't be that bad.... and it should reduce the screen door of your projector. It will slightly shift the pixels so the screen door will be partially eliminated, without blurring the image too much.

It is still better than defocusing, since the blur will be progressive as you go to the edges of the screen (out of the axis of the projector).
*
I admit I haven't followed this whole thread, but if you are shifting to get rid of screendoor then it seems that this would work well from some projectors and not for others and would basically depend on pixel count and fill ratio. Shifting is going to have a much different effect on an LCOS projector like the JVC HX-1 with 1400 pixels across and 92% fill ratio (for a gap size of maybe 1/300th of an inch on a 96" wide screen) than with a 960x540 or 1280x720 LCD or 800x600 DLP.


So, is this screen not recommended for the LCOS projectors? And is the shift all in one direction? Seems like it would be while looking at hairs in a bathroom mirror. That would seem to only decrease the screendoor in one direction and be much less controllable than defocussing.


I guess I don't understand the statement about this being better than defocussing. If the blur is good for getting rid of screendoor how is it being progressive (different blur at different points on the screen) a good thing? Directors use focus to get viewers to focus on certain parts of a scene and these are often not in screen center. So, if you are saying that having the screen gives sharp images in the center and more blurred near the edges (compared to a reference 1.0 screen) I don't see how this is a good thing.


I think it would be interesting to quantify any blur and then determine how that would effect images with different pixel counts and fill ratios from various projectors.


--Darin


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*I admit I haven't followed this whole thread, but if you are shifting to get rid of screendoor then it seems that this would work well from some projectors and not for others and would basically depend on pixel count and fill ratio. Shifting is going to have a much different effect on an LCOS projector like the JVC HX-1 with 1400 pixels across and 92% fill ratio (for a gap size of maybe 1/300th of an inch on a 96" wide screen) than with a 960x540 or 1280x720 LCD or 800x600 DLP.


So, is this screen not recommended for the LCOS projectors? And is the shift all in one direction? Seems like it would be while looking at hairs in a bathroom mirror. That would seem to only decrease the screendoor in one direction and be much less controllable than defocussing.


I guess I don't understand the statement about this being better than defocussing. If the blur is good for getting rid of screendoor how is it being progressive (different blur at different points on the screen) a good thing? Directors use focus to get viewers to focus on certain parts of a scene and these are often not in screen center. So, if you are saying that having the screen gives sharp images in the center and more blurred near the edges (compared to a reference 1.0 screen) I don't see how this is a good thing.


I think it would be interesting to quantify any blur and then determine how that would effect images with different pixel counts and fill ratios from various projectors.


--Darin*
Darin,

Although I know of no instance of the use of a LYCO PJ as of yet, (the concept is only 2 months old...) I have been using PJs with 1388 x 768 in screen applications in excess of 14' diagonal (168") down to a measly 109" with no apparent ill effects. One of the mysteries of Light Fusion is the virtual disappearance of SDE. Some have ventured to try to explain it, hence your well thought out, but somewhat assumptive post.


I feel that the combination of enhanced contrast levels, and color saturation combine with the 'built in but very slight shift' due to the gap is working to minimize the SDE by enhancing the overall image. Defocussing id wholly undesirable way to go when without it, SDE is no longer a factor, and indeed, SD/MM LF actually increases the "on-screen" detail to a very noticeable extent. It would seen that the efficiency of reflection due to the use of a mirrored substrate allows for far less shifting than that of a conventional "layered" screen that uses the same basic ideas as SD/MM LF and relies on a much thinner application, one where layers lie directly on top of each other, yet still there is noticeable shift due to the lessening of reflective ability. This is obviously the basis for your assumption that shifting would be even more an issue when a "enormous" 1/8" gap is built right in to the screen's design.


That adds to the mystery, for most would assume that with a obvious increase in overall Detail (sharpness) and subtle shadow details as well, that SDE and it's nasty little grid lines would get enhanced along with everything else in that scenario.


But it don't. In the near future at the Canuk ShootOut, there will be at least three examples of the Light Fusion application on display for review and dissection. Mucho testing gear will be on hand, with loads of comparative screens and various PJs of good to great ilk also present. Everybody's screen will get thorough testing and evaluation. Look to the results thereof for definitive answers to you current question as well as many others.


BTW, I really hope that soon we will get a chance to see how Light Fusion fare when matched up with a D-LIA or LYCOs PJ. So far, the better the PJ, the better the image. Just as it should be.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by MississippiMan_
*That adds to the mystery, for most would assume that with a obvious increase in overall Detail (sharpness) and subtle shadow details as well, that SDE and it's nasty little grid lines would get enhanced along with everything else in that scenario.*
I'm sure some of this could be explained with close up pictures. If it is doing some shifting I would expect that to be obvious with a picture of single black lines, like on the sharpness image on the AVIA disk or on the alternating black and white lines on one of the free display testing software suites (Nokia?). Since the AE500 has smoothscreen and basically no screendoor I would expect pixel shifting to be a negative on that one.


If the 1388x768 LCD has a fill ratio of 70% then the gaps would be about 4 times as big as on a current LCOS projector while sharply focused. So, if shifting causes the gaps to get filled on the 1388x768 LCD they should get overfilled on an LCOS under the same conditions. It should be easy enough to look at pixels up close and see what is happening.


I'm not saying that shifting wouldn't cause the images to look better (I would have to see them), but there are scientific reasons for all these things.


--Darin


----------



## mandarax

Sintra ... It does not have a gloss finish... it is more of a flat titanium white base there is different varieties of it..

Formica is not a good option...


Sintra is definitely more to handle than Parklands..getting it to the location..

I get it delivered to the door.... no fuss no muss ...covered in plastic.. at least I used to when playing with coatings...


Once you get it to the door and to the location then it is much easier to apply...provides a better tooth count for your screen coating...


When you put it into your frame ....especially for those big ones ... much easier to have it rigid.. Even the 3mm I would guess is over 3 times as thick.. Still light.. Its just my opinion tho based on using both...


Sintra is widely available throughout North America... Shouldnt have too much trouble finding someone that carries it or that can get it ordered for you... What do you want for 65.-- ? Great Googleee Wooogleee.


----------



## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by mandarax_
*Sintra ... It does not have a gloss finish... it is more of a flat titanium or that can get it ordered for you... What do you want for 65.-- ? Great Googleee Wooogleee.*
Large Sintra is NOT easy to find at all. They emailed me today and will "try" to find a distributor that can do 10x5 or 10x6.


QUOTE: "These are available in sheet sizes of 2M x 10'. However, all of our distributors do not stock this unusual size"




Does not sound promising and I went with Parkland oversized at 10x5.


----------



## scoob5555

Okay all-

In lieu of my upcoming SD/MM LFS on mirror (which has been delayed), I repainted my ME+ screen with the SM/MM formula. Did 2 coats of SM with my foam roller, then 2 coats of the MM with the foam. Wet-sanded that and then added a third thin coat of MM with a good quality 1/4" nap roller. That proved adequate for the task (temporary screen until I can spray the mirror screen). And it's ready in time for the Super Bowl party tomorrow night.


So I wanted to take some shots of this screen to compare to the shots from CMRA and MM. My camera setup has lots of limitations (none of the goodies that they talk about) and it's only a "2.0" MP Fuji 2600. Then, my PC corrupted the software I use to crop my pics, so these are slightly smaller than my previous pics (and probably everyone else's.


But alas, those are the cards I was dealt and I still think the images are worth the effort. These are projected from my Epson TW100 onto the 94" SM/MM screen. Source is my Bravo D1 DVI player. I also tried the shots from my new Pioneer DV-563, but I'm still working on the brightness/contrast settings for that and the images were generally too dark (although the blacks look great!).


Onward and upward. First some obligatory shots from Finding Nemo.


----------



## scoob5555

Almost forgot-

If I were to do this for a permanent screen, I would not use the foam roller for the MM coats. MM doesn't agree with the foam. So use that 1/4" nap roller for MM. The foam worked very well for the Silver Metallic, however.


----------



## scoob5555

DARLA!!!


----------



## scoob5555

Back to everyone's favorite, Gladiator.


----------



## scoob5555

The Hand with arrow.


----------



## scoob5555

Your time is coming to an end. Sire.


----------



## scoob5555

The sister with BLUE sky!


----------



## MississippiMan

I think your images are great!


My, but those are familar looking results. How familiar? compare your shot of Proximo with mine on the same surface.


----------



## MississippiMan

My version. Z2 Samsung DVI DVD Player 30' DVI cord! SM/MM LF


Wide screen. Taken from approx 16' from screen


----------



## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by MississippiMan_
*My version. Z2 Samsung DVI DVD Player 30' DVI cord! SM/MM LF


Wide screen. Taken from approx 16' from screen*
You guys are kicking ass with the digital projectors and this painting method. Great work!


----------



## scoob5555

Looks like I have some color and brightness tweaking to do before tonight. I did NOT recalibrate before taking those shots, so the pj was set for the ME+ screen. I want my image to resemble yours and CMRA's. The proximo shot is especially telling: I want his blue smock to look as blue as it does on yours. That should make the colors pop tonight for the SB.


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by mikecazzx_
*You guys are kicking ass with the digital projectors and this painting method. Great work!*
Thanx mikecazzx, for all of us.



I started using this dual mix overlay this last September. As in keeping with my usual "dive in approach", it was at a Client's New Jersey home under construction, in a theater with a 32' wide viewing wall. I was to use Goo all the way, but since the Client wanted, (and now has.) a 14' diagonal screen, the $580.00 dollar cost of Goo alone for a sceen of that size was not a consideration.


I made the reasonable assumption that any "Silver" under a Top Coat of Goo would work very well. After all, they have Digital Grey, which uses a grey tinted base and a "less" grey tinted Top Coat. A well applied Silver under coat should be, must be, has to be an even better route to go.


Just get the amount of Top coat to cover the Silver to the point where the grey hue underneath has "just' disappeared, and that's it.


Issues like working with SM and Goo were the only "sticky" points.


It was a natural progression of events that I try to create my own "ideally suited" Top Coat mix.


Enter: SM/MM LF



Scoob5555,


you said:

Looks like I have some color and brightness tweaking to do before tonight. I did NOT recalibrate before taking those shots, so the pj was set for the ME+ screen. I want my image to resemble yours and CMRA's. [:Quote:]



You know I never liked tweeking the PJ before. well, the Z2 is tweeked by eye. I was asked to get those figures a short while back, but fergitted to.


Going there today to get 'em and shoot a few last screen shots before abandoing the HT to the Client.


----------



## mandarax

Mississippiman....


didnt know you were using a Z2... here is a shot of the new Z2 mount...

This as you know is only the projector plate portion of the mount and you know the rest of it... Just deciding on the color and ... this is the bare metal plate...


----------



## b2bonez

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*CMRA-


Thanks for pointing me in the right direction for your digicam settings:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=343492 


I'll try them tonight. I have a Canon S45, but I think it has similar settings for AWB, ISO, aperture, exposure bracketing. I'll look into the zoomplayer color controls too. Maybe that's what I need to add punch to my DVD source.*
CMRA is this the camera that you use?

http://www.freetradephoto.com/pic/946.0.jpg 


Looks like a great camera.


b2b


----------



## edgebsl

I want to bring up a subject thats come up a few times in this thread and others.I was reading back through this thread today.


Let me PREFACE what I am about to say by saying i think Mississippi man and cmra have the most innovative and intrigueing ideas on this board for diy!And mm you may have a future customer! Im really interested in lfs and you film overlay in dev.


The issue here is I want to see a real bare bones screenshots with a direct comparison in the same picture!


What do I mean? Look at my "bad" and blurry shots in silver fabrics thread.Even in those crude pics you can see how the minimal lighting in the room compares to the picture as well as the samples of other materials that are placed in front of the screen.Look at shedrocks photos with the silverstar placed side -by side phisically in the shot.look at any of trygs shootouts!


What I'm saying is that all your screenshots look great! But there's nothing in the pic but the screen.And any comparisons posted have been like;one shot screen a,next message screen b.


MM someone asked you to show a comparison with posterbaord and you implied that was a redundant request.Its not.Everyone here has seen an image cast on to something that is matte white with their own eyes.Putting something like that in the shot gives a real point of reference.For example if lfs is brighter or has deeper blacks than the matte white...that gives us a definite indication.


Hell, I could capture a still off a dvd and put it into photoshop ,then pass it off as a screenshot without even projecting an image noone would be the wiser!


Now im not suggesting thats whats done...or that you guys are even doctoring your pics......much.But I have seen so many screenies form you two and i still have no idea how any of your progressions of diy formulas compare to anything else.I just know that they are clear as day and have great color reproduction.


I believe you guys are the real deal.I really do.

But Im calling you out and I think you need to step up (or step back from the screen lol) and let us see some shots with some of the room in the shot and some other materials in the shot to give us some real world ideas of what your screen really looks like.


I bet you might gain some more fans.And mm i just may be writing you check.


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by edgebsl_
*


I believe you guys are the real deal.I really do.

But Im calling you out and I think you need to step up (or step back from the screen lol) and let us see some shots with some of the room in the shot and some other materials in the shot to give us some real world ideas of what your screen really looks like.

*
Done already.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...54#post3287454 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...72#post3287472 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...52#post3210652 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...00#post2959100 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...10#post3272910


----------



## edgebsl

Thanks for the links CMRA.some of the best comparison shots ive seen.Out of everything I looked over I found the this the most telling...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...404&fullpage=1 


Thats what Im talking about! The difference is huge in that shot and because the material is right on the screen .If only mm would give us one like that of his latest frankenstein....I would start rolling change right away!


I also found these to be very revealing:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...100&fullpage=1 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php? 

s=&postid=3211414&fullpage=1


Im not really sure if any of these are of your latest builds though.I would love for you guys to keep me posted if you do any more comparisons like that with the very latest builds of your lfs screens.I doubt I would have been able to find those pics on my own.There are just so many. And MM wasnt giving in awhile back when people were asking for them.


Just curious ,do you have an estimate of what you think the lfs screen's gain is on axis? From the pics my guess would be between 1.5 and 2 .


thanks again.


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by edgebsl_
*

Im not really sure if any of these are of your latest builds though.I would love for you guys to keep me posted if you do any more comparisons like that with the very latest builds of your lfs screens.I doubt I would have been able to find those pics on my own.There are just so many. And MM wasnt giving in awhile back when people were asking for them.

*
Just follow the "SuperPlex" thread.

Sure he was, just on his own thread. He's also on the road a lot. Do a profile search on him and see.


----------



## edgebsl

I will.

What part of mississippi is he located ..I will be in jackson ms on march 24 thru 28th. My band is playing at the dock in jackson. I wonder if I could arrange to meet with him.

www.backstreetlaw.com 
www.dockrocker.com


----------



## edgebsl

 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...926&fullpage=1 


I found this one ....MM posted of a painted wall screen.

ambient light coming thru the door.

Not bad ,but I bet the plexi fares better.


----------



## scoob5555

Hello all-

As you may have heard on the other threads, MM sprayed my mirror yesterday and I got some screenshots to show for it last night and tonight. It was highly revealing tonight as it is now obvious that I need one more coat of MMud on the mirror for it to be optimal. Tonight I put my Stewart samples (FireHawk and StudioTek 130) up agains the screen (and a strip of a test SM/MM panel). The mirror is reflecting just a little too much, blurring the picture somewhat. I think this is a problem for folks if they're going to paint the screen themselves.


I will post some shots that show the issues I'm having with too thin coats of MMud. It's difficult to see in some of the shots, but it's definitely there. Interestingly, however, the image is really still quite nice and seen alone it looks ok. But when seen against the StudioTek 130, it really looks blurry. Contrast is nicer than the 130 and almost on par with the FireHawk. I want one more thin coat to get rid of the blur and keep the contrast.


Anyhow, here's the first shot showing the difference in brightness. For these shots, the mirror SD/MM is on the left, the FireHawk is middle-top and the ST 130 is middle-bottom. The test panel with SM/MM is on the right.


----------



## scoob5555

Next up, a good shot of the Pixar opening. You can see the difference in brightness, but also the blurry black "P"


----------



## scoob5555

The cool armor shot toward the end. Note the foreground blur that's slightly more blurry than on the ST 130.


----------



## scoob5555

Another Gladiator shot where you can really see the brightness issue and a slight amount of blur.


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by edgebsl_
*I will.

What part of mississippi is he located ..I will be in jackson ms on march 24 thru 28th. My band is playing at the dock in jackson. I wonder if I could arrange to meet with him.

www.backstreetlaw.com 
www.dockrocker.com *


You have to ask??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Email me @ [email protected] and let's set it up. I love a good Band, 'cause that's where I first got involved in Audio. Roadie/Technician/Mixing Board


Just keep a tight grip on your Mics or I might go "Karaoke" on ya'all.


----------



## scoob5555

I forgot to note that the previous screenshots were calibrated for the SD/MM LFS with Avia. Makes the ST 130 even more impressive. But keep in mind that my original SM/MM wall screen is very similar to the ST 130, so I know the SD/MM LFS has at least that potential - and I suspect much greater potential. Just wait till I get that final coat on.


----------



## NickB

Dare I say the ST130 looks the best out of all those photos. I thought that the LF screen was supposed to excel in the color dept. but it looks to me that it's muting the colors and adding a bit of green or yellow to the image. I wish we could see more comparisons done this way as it's easier to see the strengths and weaknesses of each screen.


----------



## scoob5555

Nick-

Did you read my descriptions/explanations at all? I clearly state that the screen is not quite finished and needs one more coat of MMud to eliminate the haloing/blurring of the image. Of course there is no color fidelity because the screen isn't finished. The ST130 is an impressive screen (in these shots) but only because it's up against an unfinished SD/MM LFS.


"Just wait till I get the final coat on."


----------



## bruce can

yes i believe nick read your post as did i but maybe he read your other thread post after you had your screen sprayed by the mm man himself you went on how it was a definite improvement over every screen you had ever had, even more detailed than the original mm mud now after a comparison your tune has changed now another coat might be a lot better, but it is nice that you posted your comparison shots between a couple of screen shots , of note you mentioned that when on it's own you didn't see the oddities, good luck on your next coat i have been building a few screens and hope to finish them this week , for those of you still looking for mirror options i found a line from my paint supplier, products from a company in Canada with shrink mirrors, flex mirrors, they make movie theater products. I haven't personally seen them, i will call for a sample but it comes in sizes 54" wide by 30' long for 175.00 Canadian, even big enough for marco


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

it comes in sizes 54" wide by 30' long for 175.00 Canadian, even big enough for marco


30'w sounds good, but 54"h is limiting.


----------



## bruce can

this mirror product is easily seamed , they also have a heat shrink material that attaches to a frame and you heat shrink it tight i don't know how practical that is but looks fun, they also have screen paint and screen material my paint supplier contacted them today and i should be receiving some samples of their materials they cater to television theaters and movie production screen material can come in 110" widths does that start to come close Clarence he he have to run i am in the middle of doing some screens right now i am experimenting and starting to use mm mix but so far my white still looks best ,i guess with crt they are so good they don't need any screen help .

bruce


----------



## Clarence

I don't think I'd mess with any seams. The heat shrink material sound like fun. I've done that with clear plastic over windows for winter insulation. Kinda cool to see it pull taut with a hair dryer. The flex mirrors are thicker than mylar, right?


Post any info, prices, links, sample trials that you can.


I've been so content with my CRT on my simple ceiling paint drywall. I feel almost guilty for not trying anything else. I promise to mix up my already purchased Metallic+MM before I try anything else, though. I keep hoping to run into a friend with a larger capacity sprayer, otherwise I'll just roll.


-Clarence


----------



## scoob5555

Here we go: pics from my newly finished mirror light fusion screen. To sum up - IIIIITT'S GREEAAAAAT.


First up, everyone's favorite: Gladiator.


----------



## scoob5555

I bet someone could do an interesting history on the Gladiator shots of this hand and the other of Maximus talking to Caesar.


----------



## scoob5555

I love the richness of these shots in armor.


----------



## scoob5555

Another favorite of late.


----------



## scoob5555

Sister looking sad at the end.


----------



## scoob5555

Because I was once considering a replacement pro screen, I have some samples lying around. Stewart is the only manufacturer that sends you worthwhile samples (2' x 3') and they make some might fine products. I have samples of the FireHawk and StudioTek 130 and have previously compared my SM/MM wall screen to them (mounted on a test panel with an SM/MM mix on the side). In that previous comparo, I stated the SM/MM screen was very similar to the ST 130.


So here we go again, only this time with my newly finished SD/MM mirror. The setup is the same: the finished mirror on the left half of the pics, the FireHawk in the upper-middle, the ST 130 in the lower middle, and the SM/MM strip on the far right. In almost all of the shots I've taken today it's very difficult to see a difference between the mirror and the ST 130. In person, the differences are very slight (if noticeable at all) in white and bright color scenes - and occasionally noticeable in dark scenes, with the mirro consistently looking blacker than the ST 130.


Without further ado: Gladiator.


----------



## scoob5555

And the same sister shot as before, but with the Stewart screens to compare against.


----------



## scoob5555

A few shots from Finding Nemo.


First up, Bruce.


----------



## scoob5555

One more from Nemo: Darla!


----------



## Clarence

Beautiful shots scoob. Congrats on completing the mirror screen. Excellent 4 way comparisons, too.


If you get bored, can you add a white poster board for a unity-gain baseline?


-Clarence


----------



## MississippiMan

Ok, here are the screenies from the Atlantic City Expo show.


Disclaimer: Every shot was hand held, no tripod or table, so some are not as sharp as I would have liked them to be. However, the purpose isn't to prove the quality of the sharp image of the Z2 / 2-HD...that has been done, rather the potential for watching the LF screen in reasonable, sane amounts of ambient light. The amount existing at the show was INSANE


Booth: 10' x 10' Solid rear wall and side walls with 7' x 8' wide opening at rear where PJ is hung. Talk about leaving the Door Open!


Screen: Light Fusion 87" x 53" w/ 4 coats of slight RO pigiment and a finish coat of Scoobs mix w/no RO (read of Scoob's blurries and got nervious!)


Sound: 16 Audio Transducers - 4 @ Right / Left /& Centered behind the Screen, 2 each at each rear triangular corner. Small but Thumpable 8" powered Sub, Sony 5000 ES w/150 wpc, Samsung 931 DVI-DVD


PJ. Studio Experience 2-HD, @ Factory Presets


In the shot below, there is a velvet curtain stretched across the opening at 78" high. In almost every other shot to come, the curtain does not exist because it was not placed there until the last day of the show.


the booth........


----------



## MississippiMan

WAY BRIGHT !


dozens of 4 light fixtures with 2- 2000 watt metal halides @ 2- 2000 watt sodium vapors. 8000 watts per fixture! Light a indoor Pot Farmer would kill for, but absolutely the biggest challange to date for Light Fusion.


Shield your eyes and check out the view from inside the booth


----------



## MississippiMan

Below is a shot of the Samsung Logo blue screen. The amount of lumens on-screen is low so it is easy to see the bar of excessive light that the ambient light creates across the screen. Not so easy to see it in the upcoming Film Shots, and almost impossible to ascertain in the CGI shots.


----------



## MississippiMan

here is that first shot of Depp taken from just inside the booth


----------



## MississippiMan

Same guy, different shot , closer w/no zoom used


----------



## MississippiMan

The vernerable Mr Anderson


----------



## MississippiMan

In this shot, due to the contrast difference. the unmasked portion of the LF screen at the bottom reacts to the ambient light. Fellas, this tells me that if there was masking involved, there would be almost no issues at all.


----------



## MississippiMan

Johnny on the Job. See the light bar at bottom? See how well the rest of the image holds up?


----------



## MississippiMan

Brighter image, less "light bar" effect. Taken from 8' inside the booth


----------



## MississippiMan

Same shot as before, taken from 14' outside the booth. Note the PJ at top center foreground. Note that there is NO curtain. Note that the image is very watchable.


----------



## MississippiMan

Get your Chopsticks and Wasabe ready, here they come!


----------



## MississippiMan

I love the richness of the colors.


----------



## MississippiMan

The new kid on the block gets a welcome


----------



## MississippiMan

Is this aquatic vertibrate stressed out or what?


----------



## MississippiMan

I wonder, does he stop at all Whale Crossings? Or make wide right turns?


----------



## MississippiMan

The East Coast Light Fusion Laboratory. First we hang 'em up, then we coat 'em with goop.


----------



## MississippiMan

Scoob & me (I)


He's the tall fat guy.










His "Fuzzy" Light Fusion screen hangs behind us, over the top of the one that is to go to the show.


I caught a little hell from my Dealer for spending so much time with scoob, and the next day with Tin, but all was forgiven after the Dealer reaped the benefits that came from exhibiting his own screen.


----------



## MississippiMan

OK...so I'm the tall fat guy. Too much success in business, and two many Hienies make MM expand.



I'm going to join my friends below and ride off to finish 2 HTs, both with identical 8' x 53" LF screens.


I hope the shots I've previously published go some way to proving that yes, you can watch a decent image with a lamp on, or even with a lot of light existing in the back of the room. But with Sunbeams on the screen. No way. And when you do decide to turn off all light......WOWSER!


----------



## MississippiMan

The Evil Lord of Light Fusion will be watching for comments. Giv 'em up!


----------



## scoob5555

Those shots are incredible given the circumstances of the setup. I can second this (indirectly) as I was working in my theater yesterday with the overhead can lights on and the picture was not only watchable, but enjoyable. This is important as we (actually my wife - I'm too lazy) use the room for exercising and frequently have the lights on to read when on the eliptical. I can't say how much better (if at all) the SD mirror is over the SM/MM wall screen, but they're both pretty darn good in ambient lighting.


p.s. Told y'all I was height-challenged.


----------



## edgebsl

Hey MM.I PMed you about the show this week.Sorry it took so long.

We just got 4 powerspot 575 elation intelligent fixtures!

No video ,but 9000 lumens apiece of colors and gobos.Lol!

We're bringing those down.

http://www.elationlighting.com/produ...=Moving%20Head


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by edgebsl_
*Hey MM.I PMed you about the show this week.Sorry it took so long.

We just got 4 powerspot 575 elation intelligent fixtures!

No video ,but 9000 lumens apiece of colors and gobos.Lol!

We're bringing those down.

http://www.elationlighting.com/produ...=Moving%20Head *


I'm bringin' me down too!


One thing though....no photos of my behaviour please. They'll hold up as evidence in a Court of Law.


----------



## CMRA

How good is light fusion and front projection in general? One screen shot could never tell the whole story, but it can give us a peek. Keep in mind folks this is an 'entry' level LCD PJ up against a HD 36" CRT monitor.

I can only imagine how good this would be on a top flight PJ.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...59#post3572559


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_
*How good is light fusion and front projection in general? One screen shot could never tell the whole story, but it can give us a peek. Keep in mind folks this is an 'entry' level LCD PJ up against a HD 36" CRT monitor.

I can only imagine how good this would be on a top flight PJ.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...59#post3572559 *
The next potential advance in LFS is underway at this moment. MM is attempting a LFS variant with 'first surface' mirrors. That is all. Update forthcoming.


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_
*The next potential advance in LFS is underway at this moment. MM is attempting a LFS variant with 'first surface' mirrors. That is all. Update forthcoming.*
Talked with MM today. He called me from LAX on route to Maui. Be informed he'll have a 'first surface' LFS at the Canuck shootout on the 17th. No other details at this time. Now you are updated.


----------



## CMRA

...A down and dirty variable quick and easy light fusion screen.


For any one who has some unused silver metallic (SM) leftover here's a simple topcoat that allows you to vary the black levels.


Simply use white pigmented primer and mix in SM to taste. The more SM you add the blacker the blacks (to a point). Spray atop a mirror, usually three even coats. Looks light gray when it drys.


Can it be any easier?


----------



## CMRA

With the aide and support of 'Saint' Clarence I present viewers/members with a new standard in posting screen shots on AVS.


Click here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...99#post3675899 


If you like this, take a moment and contact Clarence and express your appreciation:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/membe...hreadid=338764


----------



## Clarence

Oops, I put them in the wrong gallery. Here's a copy of your thumbnail links. Glad you like them.
Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_

Perhaps, if you find some time, you can hand select a few of these and post likewise in the Super Deluxe gallery.
P2170050-z2-crop.JPG 
P2170054-z2-crop.JPG 
P2170061-z2-crop.JPG 
P2170071-z2-crop.JPG 
P2170080-z2-crop.JPG 
P2170083-Z2-crop.JPG 
P2170091-Z2-crop.JPG 
P2190025-crop-XP50-480p.JPG 
P2190027-crop-XP50-480p.JPG 
P2190073-crop-XP50-480p.JPG 
P2190083-crop-XP50-480p.JPG 


I'm beginning to think all this forum needs is a little 'marcorsyscom magic'.
_OK, by special request (and a few PM reminders) by CMRA...


-Clarence_



Click on the thumbnail if you want to view CMRA's full-size screenshots:

http://www.thehoraks.com/avsforum/P2170050-z2-crop.JPG http://herndonrelay.org/avs/cmra-P2170050.jpg 

http://www.thehoraks.com/avsforum/P2170080-z2-crop.JPG http://herndonrelay.org/avs/cmra-P2170080.jpg 

http://www.thehoraks.com/avsforum/P2170091-z2-crop.JPG http://herndonrelay.org/avs/cmra-P2170091.jpg 

http://www.thehoraks.com/avsforum/P2190025-crop-XP50-480p.JPG http://herndonrelay.org/avs/cmra-P2190025.jpg 

http://www.thehoraks.com/avsforum/P2190027-crop-XP50-480p.JPG http://herndonrelay.org/avs/cmra-P2190027.jpg 

http://www.thehoraks.com/avsforum/P2190073-crop-XP50-480p.JPG http://herndonrelay.org/avs/cmra-P2190073.jpg


----------



## CMRA

Where are my manners? I forgot to thank 'marcorsyscom' for this.


BTW, everyone, I need some feedback. Does this way of posting screen shots appeal to you? Are we/I making alot of extra work for ourselves?


----------



## D_Hod

Your making needless work 4 yourselves

But i thought you enjoyed doing this so no biggy ...there just still frames without some kind of reference.


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by D_Hod_
*Your making needless work 4 yourselves

But i thought you enjoyed doing this so no biggy ...there just still frames without some kind of reference.*
D_Hod,


If you'd have been around for the duration, and "Seen" all the reference shots that have came before on countless posts, you'd cease making statements like the one above. We have progressed far beyond the need to validate every posted screenie. Marcrosyscom's method of posting pics actually condenses space, and makes it far easier for folks to gather in more data. Why, it even promises to reign in the number of posts accredited to prolific posters who previously had to post everything one after another. Myself included.


But CMRA did ask for feedback, so of course, your comments were solicited.


Sorry you could not/would not respond to my order request in time for the shootout. You missed a big opportunity to seperate hype from fact, an opportunity I was glad to have offered up. Too bad, for your claims, along with you insistance to bring a commercial product into the AVS fold via your thread cannot be justified without independent review from unbiased Peers. I hope you provide such fairly soon, for many could/would benifit from the application.


----------



## bruce can

It seems a more efficient way to post !! and as you say mississippi it saves people reading through endless back to back posts!!!! they are in one contained package so you can easily ignore them  and i would think that most people would appreciate that,all most as much as not having endless screen shots in the first place . But it is too bad that D_hod was not able to sent something to the shoot out with you . But for people wanting to read up or to review the shootout results here is the new link for the official page

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...37#post3684237 


Bruce


----------



## CMRA

Actually there were several posts before Mandarax started the new thread. Here's a link to the Canuck shootout starting with the very FIRST post.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...37#post3682337 


PS: Some of these members write like professional reviewers. You can tell they have time in grade.


----------



## CMRA

c) "Optimal Seating Distance should be 4 times the screen width."



Does anybody here agree with this?


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_
*c) "Optimal Seating Distance should be 4 times the screen width."



Does anybody here agree with this?*
On an 8 foot screen that would be 32 feet back. I don't think so.


----------



## MississippiMan

That should read 1.4 x screen width


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by MississippiMan_
*That should read 1.4 x screen width*
You would think. The author who posted that says never sit closer than 2x or further than 6x.

Next time I'm at the cinema I'm going to pace the length of the screen and then pace out 2x,4x, and 6x and see for myself.

Most of us report 1.5x to 2x as optimal for HT. Could he be referring to the cinema?


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_
*You would think. The author who posted that says never sit closer than 2x or further than 6x.

Next time I'm at the cinema I'm going to pace the length of the screen and then pace out 2x,4x, and 6x and see for myself.

Most of us report 1.5x to 2x as optimal for HT. Could he be referring to the cinema?*
I think at 4x and 6x you are likely to be in the lobby or parking lot. I'm not positive, but I think the THX standards call for pretty much all the seats to be inside 2x.


--Darin


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*I think at 4x and 6x you are likely to be in the lobby or parking lot. I'm not positive, but I think the THX standards call for pretty much all the seats to be inside 2x.


--Darin*
I'm with Darin on this one. At least as far as HT goes. The close-up viewing adds so much to the HT experience. Won't it be grand when we can all afford the 1080p DiLA experience at home? What dreams may come.


----------



## CMRA

For now, we work with what we have. I have not seen screenies of late on this screen shot thread. Here's a couple of never before posted images...on a LFS, of course.


1 of 2, Jack and Will:


----------



## CMRA

Barbarosa


----------



## CMRA

Here's a series of never brfore posted screenies. This time taken at 640x480 and no resizing.


SB-1 A PO'd trainer who reminds me alot of hall of fame legend Tom Landry.


----------



## CMRA

SB-2 Just acouple of 'War Admiral" spys.


----------



## CMRA

SB-3


"You have a gift...now, get"


----------



## CMRA

SB-4


Jeff Bridges


----------



## CMRA

SB-5


Lots of 'Binocular' scenes. Makes sense, it's about horse racing.


----------



## CMRA

 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...209&fullpage=1 



...belongs here. As well as some of your other latest efforts. Good show, MM.


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_
* http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...209&fullpage=1 



...belongs here. As well as some of your other latest efforts. Good show, MM.*


Thank you.


Dey ars a 'cummen.


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by MississippiMan_
*Thank you.


Dey ars a 'cummen.*
Well? Wez ars await'n.


----------



## MississippiMan

Sent 4 seperate packets on Saturday, all returned as undeliverable by the Server.


Not sure if it was the file sizes or just a Server being down, but they were kicked back at me.


Tonight I'm goint to reduce them by 1/3rd ( to 1800 x 1200 from 2400 x 1800 ) and try again. I'd rather not send each shot separately but that will be my next option should this fail.


Also, it might not be a fault at Clarence's end, it might be I'm overreaching my own sending capability.



Breaking news from the "Oh My God! " Screen Making Department.


Should be receiving by next Wenesday a 120" x 60" piece of Mirror from a Bunker Plastic Distributor for a Night Club installation in Indy. Looking to mate it up with a 2000 Lumen DLP. More news @ 11:00


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## CMRA

11 PM has come and gone. But, some nice Full Res FS screen shots would more than make up for it. Show us what we are missing.


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## Earz

I asked at one of the local HD's for pricing on ordering mirrored plexi-glass which could only be ordered in 15 packs or mirrors.


I was told that they could order a two way mirror for around 90.00 in 4x8 for a single order.

Does anyone know if a two way mirror that is 1/8th inch thick might work?


BTW...I am a professional painter and have tried several versions of white primer/flat/satin paint combos on my fist PJ [X1] and after trying my first formula from this board [MM] I have to say I really appreciate all the experimenting by everyone as the results so far are spectacular.


I was seriously considering upgrading my PJ before the MM which is painted on a 4x8 sheet of 1/4 inch smooth plywood.

I cant wait to try a mirrored screen whith MM or ? before deciding on whether to upgrade.


Greg


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## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by Earz_
*I asked at one of the local HD's for pricing on ordering mirrored plexi-glass which could only be ordered in 15 packs or mirrors.


I was told that they could order a two way mirror for around 90.00 in 4x8 for a single order.

Does anyone know if a two way mirror that is 1/8th inch thick might work?
*
Greg,

I have to wonder if you got the discription or the thickness right. A 4' x 8' 2-way would have to mounted in a "stressed manner" into a frame so as not to flex or bend to the point where any image viewed as a Mirror would'nt go "Fun House" on ya. Are you sure it's not just a regular 1-way Plexi mirror they're talking about? But if it is so, it just might work if the rear is blacked out. Can't say, but logic dictates that it should.


But try your local GE Polyermershapes Dealer. Or order one from memphis here in the 5' x 9' x 1/8" size (112" diagonal) for $97.50

Quote:

*

BTW...I am a professional painter and have tried several versions of white primer/flat/satin paint combos on my fist PJ [X1] and after trying my first formula from this board [MM] I have to say I really appreciate all the experimenting by everyone as the results so far are spectacular.


I was seriously considering upgrading my PJ before the MM which is painted on a 4x8 sheet of 1/4 inch smooth plywood.

I cant wait to try a mirrored screen whith MM or ? before deciding on whether to upgrade.


Greg*
Your inherent skills should put you in good stead for any application your considering.


MM is proving to be an excellent surface by itself when a "GOOD" PJ with great contrast and resolution is used. Multible layers of the stuff create a deep image, a depth that a flat surface cannot, resulting in several advantages.


4 LF/MM screen are being painted right now, with completeion by Friday. I just tested out a previously painted Pink LF (4 weeks ago..it's well cured.)last night w/a 50-HD DLP and it was spectacular. Pics to be taken tonight. It's one of my best efforts so far, and totally discounts claims made by others that the slight pink is detrimental. The Whites are just as "WHITE" as they should be. Most importantly, when I post the ambient light shots, a lot of people are going to get stood on thier ear. It's performance in that department is the best I've seen up to dat, and is very encouraging.


For the record, all the current crop of LF screens are receiving a 1:1:1 ratio mix, with very little water mixed in (6 0z to 3 quarts) and a 1.5 MM spray tip. recently 2 of my Dealers reported success in rolling the 1st coat of MM onto the mirror with a 1/4" nap Foam roller, ( a method I have decried.) and following up with 2 sprayed coats.


Hmmmmmmmm..........


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## Earz

MM, thanks for the tip on the GE stuff as I would rather not work whith glass if given the choice.


As far as the MM, I have simply rolled it on so far whith a 1/4 nap roller and sanded whith 220 in between three coats.

I am amazed at the improvements in picture quality using either my modified for audio and video Philips 963sa or my Zenith 318 HD.


I do not use hvlp's as I paint woodwork ect in new higher end homes whith an airless and use fine finish tips as everyone wants quality in a hurry so they can move in.


As far as HD, the guy confirmed it was indeed a two way mirror but I was a bit skeptical on the thickness also as he actually said it was slightly less than 1/8th.

Anyway, a customer or two was waiting at the time so I left.


HD mixed your MM formula for me in a gallon can that I purchased and I spent a good minute explaining to the cashier that he needed to scan all three tags + the can as opposed to letting me walk out paying 8.99 + tax


I did go whith the added red [slightly pink screen] and I am truely amazed how good a lowly x1 can look.


I am really curious as to how much better an IF5700/7200 would look for dvd use on a diy screen.


Greg


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## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by Earz_
*MM, thanks for the tip on the GE stuff as I would rather not work whith glass if given the choice.


As far as the MM, I have simply rolled it on so far whith a 1/4 nap roller and sanded whith 220 in between three coats.

I am amazed at the improvements in picture quality using either my modified for audio and video Philips 963sa or my Zenith 318 HD.


HD mixed your MM formula for me in a gallon can that I purchased and I spent a good minute explaining to the cashier that he needed to scan all three tags + the can as opposed to letting me walk out paying 8.99 + tax


I did go whith the added red [slightly pink screen] and I am truely amazed how good a lowly x1 can look.


I am really curious as to how much better an IF5700/7200 would look for dvd use on a diy screen.


Greg*
Much Mo Bedder!


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## CMRA

and NO screen shots.


Here's one to get things rolling. LF? Absolutely.


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## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by MississippiMan_
*Thank you.


Dey ars a 'cummen.*
Thank You,


Where are they? The world needs a MM FSLF fix proto. Here's some urgent urgin'.


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## CMRA

A man could grow old wating, MM.


Does FS have all the right stuff? No doubt it was most excellent with DLP. But, what about LCD?


Dust off your 20HD and compare to this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...820&fullpage=1 


PS: It's a humble Z1. (And the regular, NON superbit, copy)


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## sethk

These pictures look really great, but I really wish that they were taken with a reference black. I know people have said that this screen has good but not the very blackest of blacks possible but given its very good contrast, this is something that people could live with.

I, like some other people love the deepest blacks possible while still maintaining a white enough white given my screen size/material and projector.


I know that even in a grayhawk sample you can see the difference between total black on my dlp projector compared to the matte black border. Some of the screenshots I've seen dont make any distinction in blacks between the black frame and the blacks in the scene.


Essentially the camera is enhancing the contrast by picking a fairly high black and setting that as the floor (minimum) black value and finding the hottest white in the picture and setting that at close to reference white level and then equalizing. It's "normalizing" or "equalizing" all the values in between. Basically given the lack of a reference, your eyes/brain do the same.


In most realistic viewing situations we do use two reference blacks though - the black of the border and the blackness of the wall behind it (depending on your seating distance vs. screen size, you may be more or less aware of the wall a lot of the time.) Even if someone says these screenshots are not representative because of the color and brightness normalization, I would like to see a screenshot where I can distinguish between matte black on the border and the not quite as black blacks on a few different screen materials.


Thanks for all the great pictures though, this totally not a knock, I'm just requesting a little more information - that is a picture with multiple screen materials, and distinguishable blacks in the matte black frame/border versus the blacks in the picture, that would help people like me evaluating screens and materials, if and when you get time, of course 


Thanks in advance and keep up the awesome work!


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## MississippiMan

Can you guess which are 20-HD LCD images and 50-HD DLPs?


Both are on the same 112" diagonal LF Mirror Screen


Same camera. Same settings. Some ambient, some darkness.


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## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by sethk_
*These pictures look really great, but I really wish that they were taken with a reference black. I know people have said that this screen has good but not the very blackest of blacks possible but given its very good contrast, this is something that people could live with.

I, like some other people love the deepest blacks possible while still maintaining a white enough white given my screen size/material and projector.


I know that even in a grayhawk sample you can see the difference between total black on my dlp projector compared to the matte black border. Some of the I've seen dont make any distinction in blacks between the black frame and the blacks in the scene.


Essentially the camera is enhancing the contrast by picking a fairly high black and setting that as the floor (minimum) black value and finding the hottest white in the picture and setting that at close to reference white level and then equalizing. It's "normalizing" or "equalizing" all the values in between. Basically given the lack of a reference, your eyes/brain do the same.


In most realistic viewing situations we do use two reference blacks though - the black of the border and the blackness of the wall behind it (depending on your seating distance vs. screen size, you may be more or less aware of the wall a lot of the time.) Even if someone says these screenshots are not representative because of the color and brightness normalization, I would like to see a screenshot where I can distinguish between matte black on the border and the not quite as black blacks on a few different screen materials.


Thanks for all the great pictures though, this totally not a knock, I'm just requesting a little more information - that is a picture with multiple screen materials, and distinguishable blacks in the matte black frame/border versus the blacks in the picture, that would help people like me evaluating screens and materials, if and when you get time, of course 


Thanks in advance and keep up the awesome work!*
Quick answer to many questions:


1. When PJ images were much duller, it was much easier for a camera's internal light metering system to ascertain the differences between significantly darker and lighter areas. The more varied the metering being done was, as far as different locations withing the viewable field, the more accurate was the overall result. But with Light Fusion, or any High gain screen, the difference in the levels of obtainable illumination, and how it manifests itself on a screen that is NOT specifically a High Contrast oriented screen, makes it virtually impossible to allow the optimum disbursement of light onto a sheet of Film or a CCD if the center of the image is on the order of a magnitude brighter than the surrounding areas. Double Exposures can help alot, but also mute blacks within the center of the image.


One specific issue that illustrates the fallacy of your point is that if the PJ's image is producing the "blackest" black, one blacker than the surrounding walls or blackout border, then it is the surrounding area that is being represented as being blacker (via the cameras exposure tendencies) than the actual environment is under normal viewing. Not vice versa. And that being the case, who cares?

I for one do not fixate on the screen's border, not the light in the surrounding room.


It would be nice if there was a way around the physical properties that light (...and dark) frequencies bring to the table, but the truths are self evident. When taking any Photo, digital or otherwise, and excepting the use of any procedure or screen application that assures that every ounce of available black is displayed, no blacks will or can exist within the borders of the displayed image that are any blacker than what the PJ can produce, UNLESS the room itself (surrounding walls, BO border) are even blacker, thereby skewing the actual blacks presented within the image itself. Since the opposite is usually true, especially with Light Fusion, then one MUST accept that what is seen on screen is representative as what is actually there, not a aberration caused by the camera. This is validated by the mere fact that a overexposure or underexposure would result in poor images, not sharp ones loaded with detail and proper contrast. So, if the surrounding areas look deeply black, that only represents just how black the blackest black withing the image is.


A good thing.


So you see, asking for definitive screen shots that show what you request will always involve compromising either the image or the perceived ambient light in the room that allows the imaging of other surfaces when a bright, vivid area exists at the center of the viewable field.


If you can find a way to refute the immutable laws of Physics, let us all know, will ya?


You talk about using a "sample" of Grayhawk material? No way a small size of that stuff can represent how the effect would be if you projected an image across a 8' wide surface covered with it. It is just not a valid example to use to illustrate your point.


A Grayhawk screen's image is far less bright than Light Fusion, or for that matter, virtually ANY matte white screen, so by the nature of Physics, you SHOULD be able to see more variations "off screen" in any given photo example. But the resulting duller colors and crushed whites are not what most desire nowadays, (Gray has had it's day....) and unless your actually using a Grayhawk for what it was best intended for, that is, suppressing excessive lumens and enhancing poor contrast, your basically just muting the end result across several spectrums of light.


Not a good thing.


I started out using HC gray screens (DIY & Mfg) to match up with 2200 lumen PJs w/900:1 CR, to avoid hot spots and glaring whites with no shadow detail. The black levels were certainly better than on white surfaces, BUT the reduction in overall brightness was depressing. In fact, I though the X1 on a white surface looked every bit as good, brightness wise, at $1000.00 as did a SE 20-HD at $5000.00 Recently, I've tested the installed a 20-HD with a LF, (see posted pics), and even taken ambient light shots as well, all with exemplary results. (...at least no one has ventured an opposite opinion so far...?)


So much for short answers.


And BTW, your post in no ways presents itself as a "knock", nor is it unwarranted or unwelcome. Many things about LF fly in the face of accepted facts and reasoning, and therefore, many question the validity of everything about it. That some do so with a vindictiveness that borders on extremism just goes with human nature. Some feel threatened, others are upset because long held beliefs and knowledge seems to be taking a decisive hit. And some think it's all just "made up'.


But there are many more who post their queries in a reasonable and somewhat more polite manner, such as yourself, and believe me, both myself, CMRA, and any others who spend copious amounts of time on AVS helping others appreciate such tact and consideration.


So pick it all apart, question everything, and make any request you like, (...we ignore the ones we don't like anyway... ) but keep the mind's door open to new things and you too will say, "Why can't we all just get along?"


MM


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## CMRA

sethk requested:

"These pictures look really great, but I really wish that they were taken with a reference black. "


By this, may I assume sethk is referring to the 'black' overspilled light which boarders projected images?

If so, try as we may, no matter what exposure settings you use, the boarders ALWAYS come out black and BLACK. In real world viewing the borders are never that black.

On the other hand, regardless how the boarders come out, the images themselves are highly representative of what we see on the screen. Perhaps Canon or Nikon or Olympus could better explain this mystery.


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## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_
*A man could grow old wating, MM.


Does FS have all the right stuff? No doubt it was most excellent with DLP. But, what about LCD?


Dust off your 20HD and compare to this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...820&fullpage=1 


PS: It's a humble Z1. (And the regular, NON superbit, copy)*
REPEAT request. Thank you.


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## twistedcain

Looking into getting a projector and came across this thread in hopes of seeing what kind of quality I might be able to attain with a projector. I did notice how incredible the images were that were being posted. I have no idea if there real or not but since I do photo editing all the time I thought I would post some before and after images just for fun.


Using WinDVD for capture and a 30 second cut and edit job using Fireworks (similiar to photoshop) for touchup photo.


Here is the original,


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## twistedcain

and the touchedup photo


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## MississippiMan

twistedcain,


First, neither CMRA or myself have ever posted a screenshot that was altered in any way excepting the resizing to 640x480 required by AVS.


Second, your shot shows obvious traits of having been sharpened and "enhanced" (...something like a "Auto Correct" feature.) It certainly shows an improvement as far as the contrast oriented detail is concerned, but the scratchy appearence gives the post processing away. Ya can always tweek 'em, but round yarbouts, we's got eagle eyeballs. It just isn't worth nixing one's credibility to cheat when the whole idea is to improve performance in the real world.


Besides, I's betcha aint seen nuttin like dat on yar?


Scoot on over to the Superplex thread and see some of the latest offerings, some of which are shots taken in fairly high ambient light.


Then lose that editing software. If you create a good DIY screen and mate it with a decent PJ, ya jus dun neadit.


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## sethk

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_
*sethk requested:

"These pictures look really great, but I really wish that they were taken with a reference black. "


By this, may I assume sethk is referring to the 'black' overspilled light which boarders projected images?

If so, try as we may, no matter what exposure settings you use, the boarders ALWAYS come out black and BLACK. In real world viewing the borders are never that black.

On the other hand, regardless how the boarders come out, the images themselves are highly representative of what we see on the screen. Perhaps Canon or Nikon or Olympus could better explain this mystery.*
You've hit the nail on the head CMRA, that's exactly what I was looking for. Your reply is very helpful, as I havent really tried taking screen pictures myself, so I have no experience with what happens when you try and photograph the screen. It's too bad digicams dont allow such variations in the picture. What if you were to take a picture of a completely black frame projected onto the screen? This way the brightest color on the screen would be the darkest shade of gray your projector / screen combo is cable of projecting and the darkest color would be the frame itself?

Again, as and when you have time, and if you even feel like it. Thanks for being so helpful and responsive.


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## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by twistedcain_
*Looking into getting a projector and came across this thread in hopes of seeing what kind of quality I might be able to attain with a projector. I did notice how incredible the images were that were being posted. I have no idea if there real or not but since I do photo editing all the time I thought I would post some before and after images just for fun.


Using WinDVD for capture and a 30 second cut and edit job using Fireworks (similar to photoshop) for touchup photo.


Here is the original,*
Twisted,

Your editing skills are first rate. When the Del Mar season opens in late July I'd love to have someone with your talents fine tune my originals.


MM mentioned we do not retouch. Let me not only affirm his utterance but go one step further. Aside from the fact we don't possess your accomplished talent, such activity would in my estimation detract from our very efforts. It could also jeopardize what we have been trying to accomplish for the past few months.


We both enjoy bringing forth a DIY effort that in our opinion competes favorably with manufactured screens costing hundreds of dollars. It would be defeating to post any screen shot that was altered in any way. We, of course, are limited by our equipment. Posters, such as Mr Biggles, have clearly illustrated that better equipment yields even better results.


BTW, thanks for illustrating with the 'Fireworks'. I was unaware it even existed. May be just the ticket to give my upcoming Del Mar shoot that 'high end' look.


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## CMRA

SethK asked:


"What if you were to take a picture of a completely black frame projected onto the screen? "


It results in an abomination of untellable disaster. The camera fails to focus just for starters.


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## bcortez

As a photography minor in college, I can assure you that no matter whether you use a high-end 6+ MPixel digicam or 4x5 ASA 100 color film, you will NEVER, EVER, reproduce what your eye can see. Your eye has literally millions more receptors which can perceive a much wider range of colors and shades than ANY reproduction method....period.


This is one of the limitations photographers must accept, and understand. This adds that "how will it look on film" question to every shot. Good photographers understand this and can attempt to compensate in numerous ways both in-camera and during processing to attain the desired affect.


Your eye has much better ability to discern shades of grey and black in low-light conditions....that's nature. Unfortunately, nature has nothing to do with our feeble attempts to capture her beauty, we can only get a fraction of the subtleties. Also, everyone's eyes are different, and see colors and shades differently


For example, I have 20/10 vision (unfortunately, I see SDE and rainbow effect everywhere, even at 15' back), with a slight pigment deficiency. This means I see better in the dark at the expense of needing sunglasses whenever I'm out in the sun (as evidenced in my photo to the left). This is why I plan to build a LFS when I get the chance, anything to reduce that SDE (that my wife can't see, and thinks I'm crazy when I try to show her).


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## David Bott

I am sorry...But we need to close this thread down because of all the attachments. Please remember we have a place for photos...the AVS Forum Theater Gallery. http://gallery.avsforum.com complete with a screen shot section.


We let this go for some time, but the added load for the attachments being added into the database is more than we care to let continue.


Thank you kindly for your understanding in this matter. Please feel free to add your images into the gallery under the proper areas.


Thank you.


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