# The Official HDMI 1.4 Receiver Thread



## Lee Stewart

*Starting this thread as a catch all for receivers that are 1.4/3D compliant*

*Pioneer Adds First AVRs With 3D-Ready HDMI, ProLogic IIz, Bluetooth*



> Quote:
> Long Beach, Calif. - Pioneer will make 3D-ready HDMI 1.4 inputs/outputs, Dolby ProLogic IIz post processing, proprietary Pioneer Front Wide post processing, and a stereo Bluetooth option available in its A/V receivers (AVRs) for the first time.
> 
> 
> The capabilities will appear in all models in the company's mainstream series at prices starting at $229 street price. The features don't yet appear in the company's Elite series of AVRs.
> 
> 
> The features will appear in two 5.1-channel AVRs shipping in March to April and in new 7.1-channel AVRs, whose details will be announced later this week. The 5.1 AVRs are the $229 5x110-watt VSX-520-K and $299 5x110-watt VSX-820-K.


 http://www.twice.com/article/449417-..._Bluetooth.php


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## Lee Stewart

*Sony's First 3D-Capable Receiver, the STR-DN1010, Costs $500*



> Quote:
> Featuring HDMI™ 1.4 3D pass-through technology, ample high definition connectivity and compatibility with all of the latest Blu-ray Disc™ audio formats, the new STR-DN1010 A/V receiver is designed to create a simple solution for controlling any high definition or 3D capable home theater.
> 
> 
> The 7.1 channel STR-DN1010 A/V receiver (110 watts power per channel @8-Ohms, 1kHz, 1% THD) features full high definition 1080/24p support and seven HD inputs in total (four HDMI and three component) allowing for connection to a wide variety of HD devices. The receiver's HDMI 3D pass-through technology supports 3D video from connected devices and passes them through to a 3D compatible high definition television, while decoding high-resolution audio codecs.
> 
> 
> The receiver also features an icon-driven menu system for simple device and content navigation and has the ability to upscale analog video sources to 1080p resolution via HDMI. The model also boasts a sleek piano black gloss design that matches Sony's line of Blu-ray Disc players and televisions.


 http://gizmodo.com/5474837/sonys-fir...1010-costs-500


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## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18229522
> 
> 
> I don't see anything about HD Audio like True HD and DTS MA



All the new models have "decoding of all Blu-ray surround formats".


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregLee* /forum/post/18230714
> 
> 
> All the new models have "decoding of all Blu-ray surround formats".



OK - got it.











> Quote:
> True-to-Life, High-Definition Audio and New Dolby Pro Logic IIz
> 
> Of course all the latest Pioneer receivers support high-definition audio formats like Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Audio to give your Blu-ray Disc® movies a soundtrack that's true-to-life. But Pioneer adds an extra dimension with support for Dolby Pro Logic IIz across its entire 2010 line of receivers, which adds a "height" channel for an even more immersive experience


 http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...VSX-820-K.Kuro


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## mbrennem

Not a full announcement, but all new 2010 Onkyos will support HDMI 1.4

http://www.intl.onkyo.com/whats_new/2010_01/index.html


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## mbrennem




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18230934
> 
> 
> OK - got it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...VSX-820-K.Kuro



Strange specs. I don't understand how you can do ProLogic IIz on a 5.1 channel receiver that doesn't have outputs for the height channels?? I looked at the image of the back and there are no outputs for height channels that I can see.


EDIT: nevermind, there are preouts for extra channels, they are just hard to see.


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## Lee Stewart

*RD-7505 – Sherwood’s First Receiver with HDMI 1.4 Capability*



> Quote:
> The RD 7505 is a 7.1 channel receiver that’s is able to decode highest resolution audio format like Doby TruHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, in addition to the audio formats it can already process internally such as DTS 96/24, Dolby Pro Logic II, and Dolby Digital. This Sherwood receiver uses discrete amplifiers which deliver at 110watts RMS for all seven channels. By employing such amplifiers, high-quality audio is produced via 192 kHz/24 bit D to A converters and TI 32-bit DSP audio processing chips. Aside from the three HDMI inputs and one output, RD 7505 also receives two composite inputs and two component inputs. There’s one output for each video format while for audio inputs there are two digital coaxial and two digital optical.





> Quote:
> However, you have to wait till summer to get a hold of this product.


 http://www.geekiegadgets.com/2010/rd...-4-capability/


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## ckellyusa

There was a thread... "It's coming... from Pioneer" ... I'm guessing that was going to show case all the new receivers from Pioneer, those of which would have HDMI 1.4 I bet.... what happened to that thread?


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ckellyusa* /forum/post/18233411
> 
> 
> There was a thread... "It's coming... from Pioneer" ... I'm guessing that was going to show case all the new receivers from Pioneer, those of which would have HDMI 1.4 I bet.... what happened to that thread?



Guess it didn't make the transition over to 3D Central.


If you look at the topic of each of the 3 forums, there really isn't a place for 1.4 receivers. So I started this thread as a "master" thread for all announcements and discussions of 1.4 receivers.


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## markrubin

if you see threads that need to be moved, please PM me with a link


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## jbug




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markrubin* /forum/post/18233528
> 
> 
> if you see threads that need to be moved, please PM me with a link



PM Sent


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## UCFKevin

Should the relatively inexpensive nature of the Pioneer VSX-520-K throw me off a little? That seems like a hell of a good deal. I wanted a new receiver anyway...


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## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *UCFKevin* /forum/post/18246907
> 
> 
> Should the relatively inexpensive nature of the Pioneer VSX-520-K throw me off a little?



No. It looks to me like a good deal, and Pioneer makes good stuff cheap. I have two low end Pioneer receivers now, which I'm happy with. OTOH, this new receiver isn't actually available until April, so you might as well wait and watch until then. I think I'll get a VSX-1020, but not until this summer, after I've seen some reviews and when I can get some modest retail discount from the MSRP.


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## Lee Stewart

Additional info on the new Pioneer receivers:

http://gizmodo.com/5485322/pioneers-...-it-via-iphone


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## UCFKevin

Yeah, if the reviews are decent to good for it, I'll definitely scoop up the 520K, for THAT price? Hell...why not? I don't need any iPhone support for it at all, my roommates might, but my roommates ain't buying this thing, I am.


I'm just glad it's not too pricey. Yeah, I wanted a new receiver anyway, but I don't NEED one. When I get a Sony 3DTV this summer, though, I'll definitely need a new one for simplicity's sake. And new cables, too. Ugh. Here we go again. At least I'm happy with my speakers and subwoofer.


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## jimmy3d

And here come the new Onkyo's:
http://asia.cnet.com/crave/2010/03/0...a-v-receivers/


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## ezlotogura

Please excuse my ignorance 


I was looking for HDMI 1.4 compliant receivers so I found this thread, but I saw the thread right above saying that there is now an HDMI 1.4a standard (cant post the link as I am new here, but it is in the same forum)


I was looking at getting the Panny VT25 and a matching receiver (maybe the Onkyo offerings). Do I need to wait until the receivers are 1.4a compliant?



Thanks!


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## plissken99

Are we sure HDMI 1.4 is really necissary for 3D? Sony doesn't seem to think so, as their players are 1.3 spec, and they claim to output 3D 1080p 24hz.


I ask because I seriously wanna upgrade my receiver to the Denon 4310, and do not wanna wait for Denon to get off their arse and put one out in 6 months to a year. Considering my gorgeous JVC RS2 projector is on it's 1st bulb, I have the new Oppo BD player, and Avatar didn't blow my skirt up FX wise, I have no plans to upgrade everything to 3D capable until the projector breaks.


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ezlotogura* /forum/post/18252473
> 
> 
> Please excuse my ignorance
> 
> 
> I was looking for HDMI 1.4 compliant receivers so I found this thread, but I saw the thread right above saying that there is now an HDMI 1.4a standard (cant post the link as I am new here, but it is in the same forum)
> 
> 
> I was looking at getting the Panny VT25 and a matching receiver (maybe the Onkyo offerings). Do I need to wait until the receivers are 1.4a compliant?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Old expression . . . "To foretell the future - look back to the past"

*Q. What is the difference between HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.3a, or 1.3b?*



> Quote:
> For consumers, there is no difference between HDMI version 1.3 and 1.3a or 1.3b. These minor revisions to the specification typically relate to manufacturing or testing issues and do not impact features or functionality. In addition, HDMI Licensing, LLC is actively working with manufacturers to reduce confusion for consumers by de-emphasizing version numbers and focusing instead on product features and functionality.
> 
> 
> For Adopters, the latest HDMI Specification is v1.3a and the latest HDMI Compliance Test Specification (CTS) is 1.3c.


 http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#112


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *plissken99* /forum/post/18252957
> 
> 
> Are we sure HDMI 1.4 is really necissary for 3D? Sony doesn't seem to think so, as their players are 1.3 spec, and they claim to output 3D 1080p 24hz.
> 
> 
> I ask because I seriously wanna upgrade my receiver to the Denon 4310, and do not wanna wait for Denon to get off their arse and put one out in 6 months to a year. Considering my gorgeous JVC RS2 projector is on it's 1st bulb, I have the new Oppo BD player, and Avatar didn't blow my skirt up FX wise, I have no plans to upgrade everything to 3D capable until the projector breaks.



The bottom line?


3D is not part of the specifications for HDMI 1.3. It is part of the specifications of HDMI 1.4.


Whatever Sony is doing or anyone else is doing - those are the facts


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## Wesley Hester

I'm getting a new HDMI 1.4 receiver this summer and hope the Sony STR-DN1010 does SACD DSD too. Unfortunately, the press release doesn't mention it (not a good sign), the STR-DG920 I have doesn't have it and lately, only ES receivers have had it.


One thing not mentioned about about the STR-DN1010 is it's use of HDMI 1.4's audio return channel. In theory, with just one HDMI cable to the HDTV, over-the-air 5.1 surround programs will send the audio back to the receiver without the need of an optical cable. I'm still rocking an optical cable myself as I enjoy ota HD with surround. I have no problem letting it go.


The other models mentioned in the press release also have the audio return channel.


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## cmonkey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18253057
> 
> 
> The bottom line?
> 
> 
> 3D is not part of the specifications for HDMI 1.3. It is part of the specifications of HDMI 1.4.
> 
> 
> Whatever Sony is doing or anyone else is doing - those are the facts



Indeed. Also, Sony has been talking about how the PS3 3D firmware update will make use of and require HDMI 1.4.


I'm not sure what all the announcements around 3d in 1.3b were about, as it seems Sony isn't even going to do that.


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## UCFKevin

So the PS3 will be able to update itself into HDMI 1.4? That's possible? Neat!


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## Wesley Hester

 From Engadget: 

*Pioneer VSX-1020-K AV receiver with iPhone app up for pre-order*

Amazon Product Link 


By Joseph L. Flatley posted Mar 5th 2010 2:20PM











In the market for AV gear that "Works with iPhone?" Looks like Pioneer's trusty old VSX-1019AH (with its built-in iPod dock) just got a formidable ally in the form of the VSX-1020-K. This bad boy not only packs in the features you expect from an AV receiver (including connections for HD video, HD audio, wireless and analog components, 1080p video conversion and upscaling, support for *3D video* and more) but the company throws in a free custom iPhone / iPod touch app for exploring your inner audiophile -- and getting your room to sound just so in the process. Up for pre-order now at Amazon for $549. Screenshots and further details after the break.











Product Features


* "Works with iPhone" certification (with free custom Pioneer iPhone app, downloaded separately) and front USB connectivity provide iPod, touch, and iPhone users ultimate plug-and-play integration of their Apple products with their home theater

* Simple connectivity of high-performance HD video, HD audio, portable, internet, wireless, and analog components makes this Pioneer receiver the ultimate A/V control center

* The latest version of HDMI inputs and outputs provide more HD connectivity options with "future-proof" 3-D capability

* 1080p video conversion and upscaling ensures the highest quality video from any source--even "legacy" analog and lower-resolution digital video sources

* High-Power Discrete Transistor (HPDT) multi-channel amplifiers and proprietary Pioneer room calibration technology combine to ensure best-in-class home theater and music reproduction in any home




















Technical Specifications

# Channels: 7.1 surround sound

# Power: 110x7 watts

# *HDMI Specification:* v. *1.4*, *3D*, Deep Color and X.V. Color

# *HDMI Ports: 6 in (including 1 front in), 1 out*

# Component Ports: 2 in, 1 out

# Audio Codecs Supported: DTS-HD Master Audio, Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Pro Logic IIz with pre-out

# Video Modes Supported: 1080p and below

# Audio Modes Supported: Multi-zone (7.1, 5.1 + 2)

# Digital Formats Supported: JPEG, MP3, WAV, WMA

# "Works with iPhone"-certified

Product Description

Key Features are 110 Watts X 7, 7 Channel Configurable Amplifier, Surround Back. Dolby Pro-logic IIz or B Speaker, Dolby True-HD / DTS-HD Master Audio and Advanced MCACC. It has a 9 Band EQ. Auto Crossover Setting, USB to PC Graphs, PQLS – 2 Channel, Auto Level Control – Multi-Channel, Sound Retriever AIR – Multi- channel. It has a Internet radio. iPod Digital USB / USB Memory Audio. Its iPhone Certified, Sirius Satellite Radio, HDMI Repeater (6 In / 1 out), Analog to HDMI Video Conversion, HDMI to HDMI 1080p Scaler, Component Video (2 in / 1 out), Full Color GUI, iControl pioneer AVR iPhone / iTouch “APP” Multi-Zone A/V Pre-out, Preset Remote Control


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## ckellyusa

Those iPhone/iPod controls, are they only active while plugged into the receiver or can they be used as another remote?


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## Wesley Hester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ckellyusa* /forum/post/18256971
> 
> 
> Those iPhone/iPod controls, are they only active while plugged into the receiver or can they be used as another remote?



If it's like the iPhone/iPod Touch app remotes (called BD Remote and also free) for the new Sony Blu-ray players, it will be over your Wi-Fi network. The Logitech TouchMouse app (wireless mouse pad and keyboard) works this way for any PC as well. I've used the TouchMouse for my HTPC and it works remarkable well and with better coverage that IR of course but RF too.


PS The VSX-1020K and VSX-1120K have ethernet inputs for on-line radio that will connect to your network. Once it is part of your network, any wireless part will allow the iPod/iPhone to be a wireless remote for them with a remote app (which Pioneer obviously has and appears to be a good one).


Update:


I just download the Pioneer iPhone/iPod remote app called iControlAVR version 2.0.0 14.5mb and it's pretty cool. I'm using the demo mode.


There's volume control for main, zone2, zone3 and they work like you think the would on a touch screen. Mute is easy to get to. There is quick access to the inputs and listen modes. There are even video tutorials. The balance is crazy, you hold the iPhone/iPod Touch horizontally and tilt it to move the blue circle Front, Back, Left and Right like a balance game.


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## Wesley Hester

Speaking of the Pioneer VSX-1120-K....


for a few dollars more...

*Pioneer VSX-1120-K Audio Video Receiver*

Amazon product page 


Note: this one expressly says it has a HDMI 1.4 audio return channel, the 1020K might put it's descriptions are playing up the other features so much it may have got lost in the shuffle. I hope it has it.




















Technical Specifications

# Channels: 7.1 surround sound

# Power: 120x7 per channel

# HDMI Specification: *v. 1.4, 3D*, Deep Color and X.V. Color

# HDMI Ports: 6 in (including 1 front in), 1 out

# Component Ports: 2 in, 1 out

# Audio Codecs Supported: DTS-HD Master Audio, Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Pro Logic IIz with pre-out, THX Select2 Plus

# Video Modes Supported: 1080p and below

# Audio Modes Supported: Multi-zone (7.1, 5.1 + 2)

# Digital Formats Supported: JPEG, MP3, WAV, WMA

# "Works with iPhone"-certified

Product Description

Key Features are I20 Watts x 7 – (20Hz – 20kHz @ 8 ohm w/ .08%THD) It has a 7 Channel Direct Energy Configurable Amplifier with Surround Back. Dolby Pro-logic IIz or B Speaker, THX Select 2 Plus Certified, Dolby True-HD / DTS-HD Master Audio, Advanced MCACC with 9 Band EQ , PQLS – Multi-Channel, Auto Level Control – Multi-Channel, Sound Retriever AIR – Multi- channel . It has a Internet Radio. It supports iPod Digital USB / USB Memory Audio, HDMI 1.4 (6 In / 2 out _[typo on Amazon's site - it only has 1 output]_), 3-D and *Audio return Channel*, Dual HDMI Output, front HDMi In Marvell I080p Video Scaler. Analog to HDMi Video Conversion. It has HDMI to HDMI 1080p Scaling. Component Video (2 in / 1 out). Full Color GUI. It has PC Control with Multi-Zone A/V Pre-out. 9.1 Channel Pre-outs, RS-232 & Detacheable Power and Learning Remote Control


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## DJ Matt

I'm kind of intrigued by the 820K receiver. I have yet to purchase an HDMI receiver. My older one (Yamaha) has been working just fine. I am not buying a 3D HDTV, but would like to get a a new receiver and I know Pioneer makes a damn good product as everything I own from them still works flawlessly. Does anyone know this receiver has an audio delay settings of any sorts on it such as setting a 50ms delay or 100ms. Everything I have read about the 820 has said nothing about this and can't find any information on it.


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## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DJ Matt* /forum/post/18259652
> 
> 
> Does anyone know this receiver has an audio delay settings of any sorts on it such as setting a 50ms delay or 100ms.



I'm sure it does, since setting delays for each speaker is a standard feature. It will be set in terms of distance in feet rather than time. I've just been reading the manual for the 1020, and in addition to entering distance or determining it automatically for each speaker, it also lets you match delays by ear, speaker by speaker.


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## DJ Matt

Cool, sounds good. Might have to pick up the 820 when it comes out then, although I know nothing about adjusting anything by delay. I will definitely have to read the manual before setup if I do decide to get this receiver as I have not had any hands on experience with a new generation receiver.


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## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DJ Matt* /forum/post/18262465
> 
> 
> I will definitely have to read the manual before setup if I do decide to get this receiver as I have not had any hands on experience with a new generation receiver.



You won't really have to. The MCACC system does it all, to a reasonable first approximation, at any rate. Connect the microphone and tell the receiver to calibrate itself. Wait a few minutes until it's done. That's it.


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## nineteen70

What speakers would you guys use with it.


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## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nineteen70* /forum/post/18269303
> 
> 
> What speakers would you guys use with it.



Good speakers. I don't believe there is any natural matching of receiver to speakers. Being a rather frugal person, I shop on my local craigslist and just buy what becomes available and has a good reputation.


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## HokeySmoke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18253057
> 
> 
> The bottom line?
> 
> 
> 3D is not part of the specifications for HDMI 1.3. It is part of the specifications of HDMI 1.4.
> 
> 
> Whatever Sony is doing or anyone else is doing - those are the facts



These facts are further confused by the fact that some HDMI 1.3 chips are now claiming to be HDMI 1.4 chips. The Sil9233, which is inside a lot of current AV Receivers, is now HDMI 1.4 according to Silicon Image. Perhaps that means that they are not all that different.


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HokeySmoke* /forum/post/18274720
> 
> 
> These facts are further confused by the fact that some HDMI 1.3 chips are now claiming to be HDMI 1.4 chips. The Sil9233, which is inside a lot of current AV Receivers, is now HDMI 1.4 according to Silicon Image. Perhaps that means that they are not all that different.



And they will work as is without a firmware upgrade? Is that the same as the SiI9233A?

*SiI9233A 4 input HDMI 1.3 receiver*

http://www.sequoia.co.uk/components/...p=682&fmt=grid


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## davehancock




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HokeySmoke* /forum/post/18274720
> 
> 
> These facts are further confused by the fact that some HDMI 1.3 chips are now claiming to be HDMI 1.4 chips. The Sil9233, which is inside a lot of current AV Receivers, is now HDMI 1.4 according to Silicon Image. Perhaps that means that they are not all that different.



There is a telling little fact in the data sheet that Lee posted:



> Quote:
> It integrates the Extended Display Identification Data (EDID) block, which is stored in embedded Non-Volatile Memory (NVM). *This memory can be programmed at the time of manufacture using the local I2C bus, similar to how existing EEPROMs are programmed today.*



A couple of points:

It is easy for a manufacturer to update the EDID data on this chip. (doesn't require a new chip - just update the data).
It is entirely possible that a manufacturer has uses a I2C bus and has a method to update that data. I'm not saying everyone using the chip has done this.............but it is possible.


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## HokeySmoke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18274734
> 
> 
> And they will work as is without a firmware upgrade? Is that the same as the SiI9233A?
> 
> *SiI9233A 4 input HDMI 1.3 receiver*
> 
> http://www.sequoia.co.uk/components/...p=682&fmt=grid



Just go straight to the source:
http://www.siliconimage.com/products...t.aspx?pid=122 


By the way, the SiI9134 transmitter which is pictured in the block diagram as the output from the AV Receiver is only 1.3, but "supports 3D over HDMI in the HDMI 1.4 specification".


This sounds like an upgrade path to me for existing products.


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## Lee Stewart

*Onkyo AVRs, HTiBs Get HDMI 1.4*



> Quote:
> Upper Saddle River, N.J. - Onkyo introduced its first three A/V receivers (AVRs) and first three home theater in a box (HTiB) systems with HDMI 1.4 connections that support 3D video and Audio Return Channel (ARC).





> Quote:
> The AVRs are the $299-suggested 5.1-channel TX-SR308, $399 7.1-channel TX-SR508, and $599 7.2-channel TX-SR608. The $299 model ships in March, and the other two ship in April. None are in the HT series of more broadly distributed AVRs.


 http://www.twice.com/article/449834-...t_HDMI_1_4.php


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## Lee Stewart

*Samsung puts price tags on its next receivers, soundbars and Blu-ray HTIB systems*

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/09/s...dbars-and-blu/


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## UCFKevin

I've already upgraded my decision to get the 520 to the 820. I feel if I want 7.1 someday in the future, I'll be good to go, and with the Anchor Bay upscaling and the OSD...screw it. I want something I'll be happy with for a long, long time and that'll probably be it for me.


Unless somehow it's poorly reviewed, of course.


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## Lee Stewart

*Samsung Announces Pricing and Availability of 2010 Line of PREMIUM av receiver LINEUP*



> Quote:
> In addition, Samsung’s line of receivers comes with 4 HDMI Inputs and supports HDMI 1.4 for 3D as well as iPod/iPhone docks.


 http://www.samsungusanews.com/2010/0...ceiver-lineup/


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## Blue Rain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mbrennem* /forum/post/18232082
> 
> 
> Strange specs. I don't understand how you can do ProLogic IIz on a 5.1 channel receiver that doesn't have outputs for the height channels?? I looked at the image of the back and there are no outputs for height channels that I can see.
> 
> 
> EDIT: nevermind, there are preouts for extra channels, they are just hard to see.



What are *height* channels?


I only ask because my setup is 9 years old (5.1 but I also ran wires for 7.2 future upgrade







) and never heard the term *height channels* until recently.


PS: I'm In the process of upgrading my AVR and DVD player so I need to know as much as possible.


Thanks


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blue Rain* /forum/post/18292519
> 
> 
> What are *height* channels?
> 
> 
> I only ask because my setup is 9 years old (5.1 but I also ran wires for 7.2 future upgrade
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) and never heard the term *height channels* until recently.
> 
> 
> PS: I'm In the process of upgrading my AVR and DVD player so I need to know as much as possible.
> 
> 
> Thanks


*Dolby - What is Dolby Pro Logic IIz?*

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/unders...logic-iiz.html


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## Blue Rain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18292551
> 
> *Dolby - What is Dolby Pro Logic IIz?*
> 
> http://www.dolby.com/consumer/unders...logic-iiz.html



OK I heard of DD PL llz and wasn't aware it was the same as Height Channel.


Thanks..my Denon 3802 needs to be upgraded but not before my 480p DVD player which I don't even use anymore as I use my XBOX FOR MOVIES.


Blu ray player then AVR.


Thanks again


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## Urza




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *plissken99* /forum/post/18252957
> 
> 
> Are we sure HDMI 1.4 is really necissary for 3D? Sony doesn't seem to think so, as their players are 1.3 spec, and they claim to output 3D 1080p 24hz.
> 
> 
> I ask because I seriously wanna upgrade my receiver to the Denon 4310, and do not wanna wait for Denon to get off their arse and put one out in 6 months to a year. Considering my gorgeous JVC RS2 projector is on it's 1st bulb, I have the new Oppo BD player, and Avatar didn't blow my skirt up FX wise, I have no plans to upgrade everything to 3D capable until the projector breaks.



It is from my understanding you do NOT need 1.4 for 3D.


according to Andy Parson of the BD



It's not required to use 1.4 as long as everything in the signal path is capable of handling the 3D payload. This means, for example, that HDMI 1.3a can be used if all components, including cables and HDMI switching devices (such as A/V receivers) are "High Speed HDMI


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## walford

You only need HDMI 1.4 if you plan on using the Full 3D capability of the new BLU-Ray 3D disks which require the packed buffer resolutions only aviailable with HDMI 1.4 chips. Other 3d formats supported by the new 3D HDTVs can have the content sent them with HDMI 1.3 chips.


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## Steel69

Is the Audio Return Channel a 1.4 _only_ feature? Does this indicate that this receiver is 1.4(?):


(from Sony's product page)
*Audio Return Channel

Eliminate the need for extra cables connected to your TV. This feature allows audio to be sent from your compatible TV to your receiver through the same HDMI cable already being used to send audio and video to your TV.4*


I couldn't find anything that actually said "HDMI 1.4".


This receiver is selling for $330 at Newegg (according to hot-deals.org). It probably wouldn't satisfy your average AVSForum reader, but I thought I'd throw it out there, if it _is_ a 1.4 unit.


BTW, thanks for this thread. I've been looking at it daily for weeks now as I'll be forced to replace my receiver pretty soon.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Steel69* /forum/post/18309686
> 
> 
> Is the Audio Return Channel a 1.4 _only_ feature? Does this indicate that this receiver is 1.4(?):
> 
> 
> (from Sony's product page)
> *Audio Return Channel
> 
> Eliminate the need for extra cables connected to your TV. This feature allows audio to be sent from your compatible TV to your receiver through the same HDMI™ cable already being used to send audio and video to your TV.4*
> 
> 
> I couldn't find anything that actually said "HDMI 1.4".
> 
> 
> This receiver is selling for $330 at Newegg (according to hot-deals.org). It probably wouldn't satisfy your average AVSForum reader, but I thought I'd throw it out there, if it _is_ a 1.4 unit.
> 
> 
> BTW, thanks for this thread. I've been looking at it daily for weeks now as I'll be forced to replace my receiver pretty soon.



Yes the ARC is part of the 1.4 specs:

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdm...i_1_4_faq.aspx 


The new Sony receivers and their specs:

http://gizmodo.com/5474837/sonys-fir...1010-costs-500


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Steel69* /forum/post/18309686
> 
> 
> I couldn't find anything that actually said "HDMI 1.4".



This Cnet review gives "4 HDMI 1.4 inputs" as a step up feature of the dn1010, and clearly implies that the dh810 does not have HDMI 1.4.


----------



## samendolaro

Anyone know if Denon or Onkyo will release any of their higher end receivers this year with 1.4 ?

So far everything announced is on the low/mid side. I am looking for a 7.1 or 9.1 receiver with at least 140W/ch .


I assume this is on purpose so users purchase their existing stock


----------



## samendolaro

I received an email back from Yamaha today and they mentioned that they will have HDMI 1.4 Capable receivers released by September. News of this will be released soon. So thats good news





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samendolaro* /forum/post/18319912
> 
> 
> Anyone know if Denon or Onkyo will release any of their higher end receivers this year with 1.4 ?
> 
> So far everything announced is on the low/mid side. I am looking for a 7.1 or 9.1 receiver with at least 140W/ch .
> 
> 
> I assume this is on purpose so users purchase their existing stock


----------



## SoundChex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samendolaro* /forum/post/18324283
> 
> 
> I received an email back from Yamaha today and they mentioned that they will have HDMI 1.4 Capable receivers released by September. News of this will be released soon. So that's good news



September 2010 will be just about two years since the 1900/3900 line was announced near CEDIA 2008.


And hopefully Yamaha will announce replacements for the x65 series at the same time, or at least by Black Friday 2010 (somewhat before the x65 line's two year 'anniversary' around CES in January 2011).


----------



## Lee Stewart

*Onkyo Unveils First THX-Cert 3D AVR*



> Quote:
> March 16, 2010 — Onkyo has introduced what it describes as the world's first THX-certified 3D-ready a/v receiver.


 http://www.hometheatermag.com/news/031610onkyo/


----------



## Wesley Hester

^^^^

The Onkyo 608 may be Onkyo's first THX-certified 3D-ready receiver. The Pioneer 1120 is THX-Select 2+ certified and was up on Amazon for pre-order around March 5th along with the 1020 (not THX certified).


----------



## scarabaeus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ezlotogura* /forum/post/18252473
> 
> 
> I was looking for HDMI 1.4 compliant receivers so I found this thread, but I saw the thread right above saying that there is now an HDMI 1.4a standard
> 
> 
> Do I need to wait until the receivers are 1.4a compliant?



You probably won't have to wait. The challenges for the receivers are the new HDMI InfoFrames, the EDID tags for 3D and the "Frame Packing" timings. All of which have been specified in HDMI 1.4


HDMI 1.4a added some more mandatory 3D formats, but they use timings that are compatible with the 2D formats. The extensions to the EDID tags and the InfoFrame content are mostly within the limits specified by 1.4. If the receiver just passes through all the 3D tags from the display's EDID, and also passes through the HDMI InfoFrames from the player to the TV, without making any changes, then the receiver would work for both, HDMI 1.4 and 1.4a.


In the worst case, the 1.4 receiver would not understand the new 1.4a top-bottom format tags and will ignore them. This still allows you to play 3D blu-rays in frame packing modes. You only might have problems with set top boxes that try to to top-and-bottom, and maybe also side-by-side.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scarabaeus* /forum/post/18329091
> 
> 
> You probably won't have to wait. The challenges for the receivers are the new *HDMI InfoFrames*, the EDID tags for 3D and the "Frame Packing" timings. All of which have been specified in HDMI 1.4
> 
> 
> HDMI 1.4a added some more mandatory 3D formats, but they use timings that are compatible with the 2D formats. The extensions to the EDID tags and the InfoFrame content are mostly within the limits specified by 1.4. If the receiver just passes through all the 3D tags from the display's EDID, and also passes through the HDMI InfoFrames from the player to the TV, without making any changes, then the receiver would work for both, HDMI 1.4 and 1.4a.
> 
> 
> In the worst case, the 1.4 receiver would not understand the new 1.4a top-bottom format tags and will ignore them. This still allows you to play 3D blu-rays in frame packing modes. You only might have problems with set top boxes that try to to top-and-bottom, and maybe also side-by-side.



What are *HDMI InfoFrames*?


----------



## scarabaeus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18329237
> 
> 
> What are *HDMI InfoFrames*?



That is a data block, sent by the player to indicate the 3D format of the current video signal. This did not exist before HDMI 1.4, and does not have to be sent for 2D signals. The TV uses this to automatically enable the 3D presentation of a 3D signal.


It is defined in section 8.2.3, "HDMI Vendor Specific InfoFrame" of the HDMI 1.4a spec (in the publicly available 3D extraction as well)


Before this, only the "AVI InfoFrame", defined by the CEA 861 spec, was used to convey the meta data of the video signal. Since CEA and HDMI are different organisations, HDMI could not add the 3D tagging to the AVI InfoFrames. So, they created their own custom InfoFrame and are sending that alongside the AVI.


It will also be used for the 4K video modes, which as well are specified by HDMI and not by CEA.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scarabaeus* /forum/post/18329440
> 
> 
> That is a data block, sent by the player to indicate the 3D format of the current video signal. This did not exist before HDMI 1.4, and does not have to be sent for 2D signals. The TV uses this to automatically enable the 3D presentation of a 3D signal.
> 
> 
> It is defined in section 8.2.3, "HDMI Vendor Specific InfoFrame" of the HDMI 1.4a spec (in the publicly available 3D extraction as well)
> 
> 
> Before this, only the "AVI InfoFrame", defined by the CEA 861 spec, was used to convey the meta data of the video signal. Since CEA and HDMI are different organisations, HDMI could not add the 3D tagging to the AVI InfoFrames. So, they created their own custom InfoFrame and are sending that alongside the AVI.
> 
> 
> It will also be used for the 4K video modes, which as well are specified by HDMI and not by CEA.



Thank you.


----------



## kriktsemaj99

If anybody wants to download the 3D part of the HDMI 1.4 spec without going through the stupid registration process, I found a link to the PDF here .


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scarabaeus* /forum/post/18329091
> 
> 
> In the worst case, the 1.4 receiver would not understand the new 1.4a top-bottom format tags and will ignore them. This still allows you to play 3D blu-rays in frame packing modes. You only might have problems with set top boxes that try to to top-and-bottom, and maybe also side-by-side.



That's a pretty bad worst case, for me. When I do get a 3D TV, I'm surely going to want to watch DirecTV's 3D channels. If anyone finds out definitely whether the HDMI 1.4 receivers will also work for 1.4a, I hope they will post here.


----------



## RoboRay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wesley Hester* /forum/post/18327018
> 
> 
> ^^^^
> 
> The Onkyo 608 may be Onkyo's first THX-certified 3D-ready receiver. The Pioneer 1120 is THX-Select 2+ certified and was up on Amazon for pre-order around March 5th along with the 1020 (not THX certified).



The first one that actually *ships* will be the first. Pre-orders and other future projections need not apply.


----------



## Wesley Hester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RoboRay* /forum/post/18332253
> 
> 
> The first one that actually *ships* will be the first. Pre-orders and other future projections need not apply.



Sorry, I thought we were talking about THX certification. No biggy. The first THX certified receiver for me will be the one I purchase first this year and receive shipped whenever: that's official.


----------



## RoboRay

I thought we were, too. But in any case, nobody can say they are the first until they actually ship the product out to customers. For example, Sherwood Newcastle announced in January 2007 that that they would be the very first company to ship an HDMI 1.3 receiver. They *finally* shipped the R-972 a couple of months ago (still buggy as heck and nowhere near ready to be a shipping product), as we began to talk about the HDMI 1.4 receivers that will soon be arriving.


----------



## ggreenw

okay so is the only difference in the Onkyo 508 and 608 100 watts/channel vs 80 watts/channel?


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ggreenw* /forum/post/18344993
> 
> 
> okay so is the only difference in the Onkyo 508 and 608 100 watts/channel vs 80 watts/channel?


*SR608 has:*


THX Select2 Plus Certification


HDMI V1.4 repeater , 6in (1 front) / 1out


*SR508 has:*


HDMI V1.4 repeater , 4in / 1out


----------



## ggreenw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18345022
> 
> *SR608 has:*
> 
> 
> THX Select2 Plus Certification
> 
> 
> HDMI V1.4 repeater , 6in (1 front) / 1out
> 
> 
> *SR508 has:*
> 
> 
> HDMI V1.4 repeater , 4in / 1out



thanks Lee! i have the tx-sr607 now and just got my un55c7000 so I am thinking of upgrading the receiver, not only cause of the 3d passthrough, but i like the idea of an audio return channel for watching netflix, etc on the tv. Do you think the THX certification and 20 extra watts per channel are worth the extra $$$? thanks, grant.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ggreenw* /forum/post/18345051
> 
> 
> thanks Lee! i have the tx-sr607 now and just got my un55c7000 so I am thinking of upgrading the receiver, not only cause of the 3d passthrough, but i like the idea of an audio return channel for watching netflix, etc on the tv. Do you think the THX certification and 20 extra watts per channel are worth the extra $$$? thanks, grant.



My personal opinion? No - I don't think the THX certification and the 2 extra HDMI inputs are worth what you have to pay. Unless you have more than 4 HDMI sources.


And 20 extra watts? LOL. Take a glass of water - fill it up half way. Now add two table spoons of water. THERE - you just added 20 watts.










To make a difference in wattage, you have to DOUBLE. 120 to 240, etc.


----------



## ggreenw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18345110
> 
> 
> My personal opinion? No - I don't think the THX certification and the 2 extra HDMI inputs are worth what you have to pay. Unless you have more than 4 HDMI sources.
> 
> 
> And 20 extra watts? LOL. Take a glass of water - fill it up half way. Now add two table spoons of water. THERE - you just added 20 watts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To make a difference in wattage, you have to DOUBLE. 120 to 240, etc.



Thanks Lee.

Either way it won't be so bad if i can sell my 607 for a fair price. And since my BD player is the PS3 it's not like there's any hurry since I won't be able to use it for 3d until they release the firmware update.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ggreenw* /forum/post/18349389
> 
> 
> Thanks Lee.
> 
> Either way it won't be so bad if i can sell my 607 for a fair price. And since my BD player is the PS3 it's not like there's any hurry since I won't be able to use it for 3d until they release the firmware update.



I wish you good fortune in selling your 607.


Based on what I have seen in 1.4 receivers, and my experience (bad) on my last purchase of a receiver, I have become much more savy as to what I believe will be a good deal for me.


I don't want to pay for things I have no use for. I want something that is tailored for me. And so far, I have my eye on one of the new Pioneer 1.4 receivers. The $300 one that only has 5.1, which is all I want or need. Does HD audio from BD, has enough HDMI inputs and will handle 3D video. That's it. Whether it's got 70 watts a channel or 100. Makes no difference to me. I have never played an audio system I owned at max volume.


----------



## Wesley Hester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18349463
> 
> 
> I don't want to pay for things I have no use for. I want something that is tailored for me. And so far, I have my eye on one of the new Pioneer 1.4 receivers. The $300 one that only has 5.1, which is all I want or need. Does HD audio from BD, has enough HDMI inputs and will handle 3D video. That's it. Whether it's got 70 watts a channel or 100. Makes no difference to me. I have never played an audio system I owned at max volume.



That's me too. I want just enough and no more. I have the money this year for upgrades and I could spend $2500 or more for a high end Onkyo, Denon or Pioneer Elite. Buy why? Anything over THX Select 2+ is way too much for my viewing/listening area's dimensions. I do need 6 HDMI inputs (or more). That, the price and a few other reasons are why the Onkyo 608 and Pioneer 1120 look so appealing to me. I'm looking at putting the $2000 or more that I'm saving on these receivers over their high-end siblings into other things like maybe a complete speaker upgrade and for sure a new component storage solution. Also, in 2 to 4 years if something really hot or necessary comes along, I'll simply upgrade to another $500-$800 receiver and sell off whatever I get this year for a very low price since you can never really get your money back on these things. Sure want hurt the wallet too much and it want hurt as much as seeing a $2500+ receiver sell for far less (when you're on a tight budget).


Like I've said in earlier post elsewhere, I've been in the mid-range with A/V receivers before but I just can't justify it with the high turnover rate I have with receivers. I've had the same speakers nearly 10 years now and could see investing the money there instead. Furthermore, having a listening area of a certain size also helps keep things at a certain level and price range. If I had a much bigger area, I would have to just "bit the bullet" go with a more powerful and expensive receiver: THX-Ultra, THX-Ultra2 and THX-Ultra2 Plus (more that 120-watts per channel). Luckily, I don't HAVE to.


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18349463
> 
> 
> And so far, I have my eye on one of the new Pioneer 1.4 receivers. ... Whether it's got 70 watts a channel or 100. Makes no difference to me.



Nor to me. But the Pioneer vsx-1020 (or 1120) has some interesting features missing from the vsx-820: a GUI, "advanced MCACC", and a learning remote control (not sure the 820 doesn't have this). The calibration system has a 9 band equalizer, and makes various charts of your room's frequency response, which you can transfer over to your computer.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregLee* /forum/post/18356653
> 
> 
> Nor to me. But the Pioneer vsx-1020 (or 1120) has some interesting features missing from the vsx-820: a GUI, "advanced MCACC", and a learning remote control (not sure the 820 doesn't have this). The calibration system has a 9 band equalizer, and makes various charts of your room's frequency response, which you can transfer over to your computer.



LOL. I suspect I have a simplier HT then you do, thus my needs for a receiver will be simplier than yours.










The VSX-820-K or the Onkyo TX-SR308 fill fit the bill perfectly - and they still has stuff I will never use on it.


----------



## ggreenw

Quick question: Do you guys think its a good idea to get on these pre-orders now or wait until they are starting to ship? I.E. Amazon has the Onkyo 608 at $100 off msrp,and most other ones are at various discounts, and Im wondering if its something that they will hike up once they become available? I guess there's no way to know for sure but I was just curious if anyone has had experience with pre-ordering things like this. Thanks, Grant.


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ggreenw* /forum/post/18366371
> 
> 
> Quick question: Do you guys think its a good idea to get on these pre-orders now or wait until they are starting to ship?



Just now, I'm thinking "wait". I did pre-order the Pioneer vsx-1020, but I may cancel. I'm worried that the HDMI 1.4 implementation may be incomplete in this generation of AVRs. Note this M code post in the receiver forum.


----------



## RoboRay

Why would they sell you the full version now when they can sell you a better version next year, too?


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregLee* /forum/post/18366596
> 
> 
> Just now, I'm thinking "wait". I did pre-order the Pioneer vsx-1020, but I may cancel. I'm worried that the HDMI 1.4 implementation may be incomplete in this generation of AVRs. Note this M code post in the receiver forum.



Yet somehow they managed to get the 1.4 HDMI RX chip into 3DTV's and 1.4 TX chip in 3D BD players - and they both work as they should. Something happen different when you put them in a receiver?


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18366784
> 
> 
> Yet somehow they managed to get the 1.4 HDMI RX chip into 3DTV's and 1.4 TX chip in 3D BD players - and they both work as they should. Something happen different when you put them in a receiver?



Good point.


----------



## defibaughr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregLee* /forum/post/18366596
> 
> 
> Just now, I'm thinking "wait". I did pre-order the Pioneer vsx-1020, but I may cancel. I'm worried that the HDMI 1.4 implementation may be incomplete in this generation of AVRs. Note this M code post in the receiver forum.



I note in the Samsung UN55C7000 user manual that a separate Ethernet connection is required to use networking features. Doesn't HDMI v1.4 include Ethernet? Does this mean Samsung does not plan to implement this part of v1.4 at this time?


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *defibaughr* /forum/post/18372210
> 
> 
> I note in the Samsung UN55C7000 user manual that a separate Ethernet connection is required to use networking features. Doesn't HDMI v1.4 include Ethernet? Does this mean Samsung does not plan to implement this part of v1.4 at this time?



Ethernet Over HDMI is an optional feature of HDMI 1.4. I am not aware of any product announced that has it. It requires a brand new HDMI cable.


Speaking of 1.4 cables - from yesterday:



> Quote:
> Morganville, N.J. - Bell'o International today announced a new line of HDMI 1.4 cables, the first on the market to be Simplay HD 2.0 certified.


 http://www.twice.com/article/450653-...2_0_Cables.php


----------



## SoundChex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregLee* /forum/post/18366596
> 
> 
> Just now, I'm thinking "wait". I did pre-order the Pioneer vsx-1020, but I may cancel. I'm worried that the HDMI 1.4 implementation may be incomplete in this generation of AVRs. Note this M code post in the receiver forum.



I found the wording of the *NPB* for the new *Yamaha RX-V567* interesting:


" _3D-Ready AV Receiver with 7ch amplification. Supports 3D*** and Audio Return Channel over HDMI, . . ._ "

" _HDMI (V.1.4 with 3D*** and Audio Return Channel)_ "

" _*** HDMI 3D feature will be available via firmware update._ "


----------



## ggreenw

So are we pretty much looking at no sooner than April for any of these new receivers to ship? I keep checking Amazon rather obsessively lol. I guess I'm just anxious to get all of this stuff implemented.


----------



## Lee Stewart

*More info on Pioneer 1.4 receivers:*



> Quote:
> And in hardware news, Pioneer Electronics has followed up the announcement of new 3D-ready 5.1 receivers with word of new 3D-ready 7.1 receivers as well. The VSX-920-K (SRP $399) and VSX-1020-K (SRP $549) will be due in April or May, while the new flagship unit, the VSX-1120-K (SRP $749), will arrive in June.


----------



## RadicalxEdward

Hmmm, sooo based on all this info, i'm probably pretty stupid for just paying $850 for a refurb pioneer elite sc-25 huh?


$500 gets more hdmi inputs, plus 1.4 spec parts, plus ability to be controlled by iphone.


Ya the elite's gonna have better guts (like class d amp) but still.


----------



## RadicalxEdward

i've been checking out pioneer's site a lot recently when i was figuring out which receiver to get and up until today i didn't see any mention of new receivers and now they have them all listed. F U PIONEER!!!!


lol and about that icontrol av app. I just looked it up on my iphone and checked out the review. Of which it only shows 1. From a fellow who just bought an SC-25 on the 26th and was disappointed he couldn't use the app with that.


----------



## GregLee

I emailed Pioneer asking if the 1020 would be compatible with HDMI 1.4a and got the answer "yes". Specifically, I asked:


> Quote:
> Will the VSX-1020-K receiver be compatible with HDMI 1.4a? If this requires a firmware update after purchase, can I apply the update myself, either over the internet or by download through the USB port (as opposed to taking the receiver to a service center)?



and got this answer:


> Quote:
> Firmware Updates must be installed by a service center. All our Receivers for the Year 2010 will support HDMI 1.4a.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank You,
> 
> 
> David
> 
> Customer Service Representative


----------



## kriktsemaj99

Regardless of HDMI 1.4a, I wouldn't buy a receiver that has to go to a service centre for firmware updates.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kriktsemaj99* /forum/post/18410692
> 
> 
> Regardless of HDMI 1.4a, I wouldn't buy a receiver that has to go to a service centre for firmware updates.



Why not? If anything went wrong with the installation of the update, wouldn't it be their responsibility?


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kriktsemaj99* /forum/post/18410692
> 
> 
> Regardless of HDMI 1.4a, I wouldn't buy a receiver that has to go to a service centre for firmware updates.



If I knew the firmware would need an update, I certainly would not buy it, knowing I'd have to disconnect it from all my equipment, box it up, drive to a UPS store to ship it, do without it for an indeterminate time, and so on. What a hassle. However, I have two Pioneer receivers now which never required a firmware update, so I will probably risk it for the 1020.


I'd really like to find a 3D TV that could be updated over the net, for the sake of getting better versions of the 2D->3D conversion software.


----------



## kriktsemaj99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kriktsemaj99* /forum/post/18410692
> 
> 
> Regardless of HDMI 1.4a, I wouldn't buy a receiver that has to go to a service centre for firmware updates.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18410796
> 
> 
> Why not? If anything went wrong with the installation of the update, wouldn't it be their responsibility?



There's no reason why the firmware update procedure can't be made reliable. Loads of devices these days get updated regularly (BD players for one). The hassle of disconnecting a receiver and shipping it somewhere is huge, and they have so many features now there's no way they can be bug free (even less likely when they first ship with HDMI 1.4 features that have hardly been tested due to a lack of HDMI 1.4 sources and displays).


If you're lucky there are no major bugs that really have to be addressed, but you might not be lucky (last year a lot of Denon owners had a major bug and the low-end models could not be updated by the user).


For models that aren't updateable by the user, bug fixes are often not announced but they usually do exist. Units shipping later have newer firmware revisions that were quietly introduced at the factory, and existing owners typically never know.


----------



## kriktsemaj99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregLee* /forum/post/18411452
> 
> 
> I'd really like to find a 3D TV that could be updated over the net, for the sake of getting better versions of the 2D->3D conversion software.



Most TVs now can be updated. Sometimes via the network and sometimes from a USB stick (sometimes even over the air, whether you asked for the update or not!).


----------



## DJ Matt

I would like to find out more about the Pioneer 820 receiver thats coming out in April.


1) My Samsung TV supports 1080p/24. Can I still get this when I have HDMI running from Blu-ray to receiver and receiver to TV?


2) Will my picture degrade slightly from the HDMI going into and out of the receiver? I understand it that some receivers do an excellent job at passing through the signal, but other receivers are mediocre at this at best.


3) Dumb question and one I should already know... I still have an HD DVD player. I can't remember if it accepts 1.3 HDMI or only 1.2 HDMI. Would it be ok if I used 1.3? My HD DVD player is a Toshiba HD-A20.


----------



## Quetzalcoatl




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DJ Matt* /forum/post/18415004
> 
> 
> I would like to find out more about the Pioneer 820 receiver thats coming out in April.
> 
> 
> 1) My Samsung TV supports 1080p/24. Can I still get this when I have HDMI running from Blu-ray to receiver and receiver to TV?
> 
> 
> 2) Will my picture degrade slightly from the HDMI going into and out of the receiver? I understand it that some receivers do an excellent job at passing through the signal, but other receivers are mediocre at this at best.
> 
> 
> 3) Dumb question and one I should already know... I still have an HD DVD player. I can't remember if it accepts 1.3 HDMI or only 1.2 HDMI. Would it be ok if I used 1.3? My HD DVD player is a Toshiba HD-A20.


 http://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=120 


> Quote:
> Implementing the mandatory formats of the HDMI Specification facilitates interoperability among devices, allowing devices to speak a common 3D language when transmitting and receiving 3D content. The mandatory requirements for devices implementing 3D formats are:
> 
> 
> Displays - must support all mandatory formats.
> 
> Sources - must support at least one mandatory format.
> 
> Repeaters - must be able to pass through all mandatory formats.



1. yes

2. no

3. HDMI is fully backwards compatable so you have no worries about using it.


----------



## Elkhunter

The 308, 508 and the 608 are shipping with HDMI 1.4a. All other AVRs and HTiBs that Onkyo will roll out this year will also feature HDMI 1.4a.


Hopefully, this isn't an April Fool's Day joke.

http://www.twice.com/article/450956-..._HDMI_1_4a.php


----------



## GotHDTV?

Is there an HDMI 1.4 receiver that with HD Radio Integrated (and of course all the DD TrueHD and DTS-HDMA) on the horizon? I know that I can buy a HD Radio module, but I would rather have it all in one.


Denon is probably going to make one, but they are out of my price range. I am hoping for $500 or less.



Thanks in advance


----------



## peter0328




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Elkhunter* /forum/post/18419150
> 
> 
> The 308, 508 and the 608 are shipping with HDMI 1.4a. All other AVRs and HTiBs that Onkyo will roll out this year will also feature HDMI 1.4a.
> 
> 
> Hopefully, this isn't an April Fool's Day joke.
> 
> http://www.twice.com/article/450956-..._HDMI_1_4a.php



This was announced at CES and you can view the receivers and specs on the Onkyo website.


I'm pissed because there is no 708. I got the 707 is January since my 606 died (HDMI stopped functioning) and am not willing to downgrade or pay for more features other than 3D support. Most likely I will get a splitter to allow my 707 to still function since there is no 3D replacement for it.


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GotHDTV?* /forum/post/18421423
> 
> 
> Is there an HDMI 1.4 receiver that with HD Radio ... ?



I haven't seen any mention of one. Aside from future Denon receivers, maybe Yamaha?


----------



## SoundChex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregLee* /forum/post/18424654
> 
> 
> I haven't seen any mention of one. Aside from future Denon receivers, maybe Yamaha?



That makes sense: The existing 2065, 1900, 3900 models all have HDRadio -- and are all likely to be replaced later this year with HDMI 1.4 equipped models...


----------



## GotHDTV?

I posted my question to other sections and the receiver forum seems to have come through.


This is an annouced Denon and looks like I can strech my budget to get it. I do wish that it had higher watts per channel, but I think it will work for me.

http://www.avland.co.uk/aasp/denon/1...11/avr1911.asp


----------



## turnne1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18349463
> 
> 
> I wish you good fortune in selling your 607.
> 
> 
> Based on what I have seen in 1.4 receivers, and my experience (bad) on my last purchase of a receiver, I have become much more savy as to what I believe will be a good deal for me.
> 
> 
> I don't want to pay for things I have no use for. I want something that is tailored for me. And so far, I have my eye on one of the new Pioneer 1.4 receivers. The $300 one that only has 5.1, which is all I want or need. Does HD audio from BD, has enough HDMI inputs and will handle 3D video. That's it. Whether it's got 70 watts a channel or 100. Makes no difference to me. I have never played an audio system I owned at max volume.




There is a little more too it than that

A higher end receiver will sound better at lower volumes also. Things like a more robust power supply, a better amplifier section and better sound processing DAC's make it sound better at any volume

On the video side they typically have better video pass through processing also


I do agree with you not to get caught in posted wattage...as the manufacturers play games and sometimes post the ratings based on just 1-2 channels being driven at the same time

You can take a look at most AV mags and they will list the true wattage with all channels driven

If you don't have to have the product as soon as it rolls into the market place...give it 6 months too a year and you can many times buy products that were high end for much lower cost...or buy a factory refurb etc

For example I bought a factory refurbished Onkyo 875( HDMI 1.3) for $599 a year ago. It was $1700( retail) two years ago. Other than the box saying "factory refurbished" on the outside, the unit looked brand new

It came with a 1 year warranty ..not the standard 2 year that was offered when the units were new..I did purchase the extended 5 year one



Warren


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *turnne1* /forum/post/18434512
> 
> 
> Things like a more robust power supply, a better amplifier section and better sound processing DAC's make it sound better at any volume



Without listening tests to back up these opinions, I see no good reason to believe any of them.


----------



## Lee Stewart

*Yamaha AVRs, HTiBs Getting HDMI 1.4*



> Quote:
> Buena Park, Calif. - Yamaha launched its first five home theater in a box (HTiB) receiver/speaker packages and first three A/V receivers (AVRs) with HDMI 1.4 inputs and outputs, but they'll need a firmware upgrade to support 3D video, the company said.
> 
> 
> With the firmware upgrade, all will support the Side-by-Side (Half) and Top-and-Bottom formats that broadcasters are adopting as well as the formats used for current 3D Blu-ray content, the company added.





> Quote:
> In AVRs, the $249-suggested RV-V367, $379-suggested RV-V467 and $479 RX-V567 are the company's first AVRs with HDMI 1.4, all capable of supporting 3D video passthrough with a planned firmware upgrade. The top two models also feature HDMI 1.4's audio return channel function out of the box.





> Quote:
> The $249 AVR is rated at 5x100 watts. The $379 model, rated at 5x105 watts, adds decoding of all Blu-ray surround formats, audio return channel, YPAO, HDMI CEC and front-panel display of iPod/iPhone song titles. The $479 model starts the 7-channel AVR lineup, as it did last year, and adds 7x90-watt amp and onscreen display


 http://www.twice.com/article/450979-...g_HDMI_1_4.php


----------



## turnne1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregLee* /forum/post/18434700
> 
> 
> Without listening tests to back up these opinions, I see no good reason to believe any of them.



agreed

Thats why when some one questions the price differences of receivers....say why does Pioneer have a 1019 for $499 and an SC27 for $2000...and they are are within 10 watts of each other

Listen to them both....even if you don't know the technical differences...your ears will tell you there is a huge difference


You can also pick the two up and notice that the SC27 weighs about 3x at much as the 1019


I use these two for examples...you can do the same with any set of receivers among the same brand...they all have low..mid and high end



Warren


----------



## obveron

I don't understand why we need new audio receivers for hdmi 1.4. All that has changed is some new mandatory 3d modes, audio transport is still identical.


So if I send a 3d framepacked signal via HDMI as per 1.4 specifications, why shouldn't my HDMI 1.3 reciever decode and play the audio and pass through the video? Why should an audio receiver need to understand and process the video, if it's not being asked to do any video processing.


I find all this HDMI version stuff really tiresome when it comes to audio receivers since IMHO an audio receiver shouldn't concern itself with the video signal.


----------



## peter0328




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18447082
> 
> 
> I don't understand why we need new audio receivers for hdmi 1.4. All that has changed is some new mandatory 3d modes, audio transport is still identical.
> 
> 
> So if I send a 3d framepacked signal via HDMI as per 1.4 specifications, why shouldn't my HDMI 1.3 reciever decode and play the audio and pass through the video? Why should an audio receiver need to understand and process the video, if it's not being asked to do any video processing.
> 
> 
> I find all this HDMI version stuff really tiresome when it comes to audio receivers since IMHO an audio receiver shouldn't concern itself with the video signal.



Because the creators of HDMI are stupid lol.


----------



## RadicalxEdward




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18447082
> 
> 
> I don't understand why we need new audio receivers for hdmi 1.4. All that has changed is some new mandatory 3d modes, audio transport is still identical.
> 
> 
> So if I send a 3d framepacked signal via HDMI as per 1.4 specifications, why shouldn't my HDMI 1.3 reciever decode and play the audio and pass through the video? Why should an audio receiver need to understand and process the video, if it's not being asked to do any video processing.
> 
> 
> I find all this HDMI version stuff really tiresome when it comes to audio receivers since IMHO an audio receiver shouldn't concern itself with the video signal.





who said you needed to update an audio receiver? the receiver SHOULD be able to ignore the extra 3d bits of hdmi 1.4a not to mention manufacturers don't have to support every feature of 1.4 to say it's a 1.4 device. So lots of old devices can technically be updated to 1.4 via software. and i believe (i could be wrong) that you can do 3d on 1.3a devices just not 1080p 3d.


but also there is an audio component to 1.4a. There's that audio return channel right? don't think it's that great of a feature but w/e


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalxEdward* /forum/post/18447255
> 
> 
> who said you needed to update an audio receiver? the receiver SHOULD be able to ignore the extra 3d bits of hdmi 1.4a not to mention manufacturers don't have to support every feature of 1.4 to say it's a 1.4 device. So lots of old devices can technically be updated to 1.4 via software. and i believe (i could be wrong) that you can do 3d on 1.3a devices just not 1080p 3d.
> 
> 
> but also there is an audio component to 1.4a. There's that audio return channel right? don't think it's that great of a feature but w/e


*Can older HDMI (v.1.0 - 1.3) devices be firmware-upgraded to take advantage of the new features introduced in HDMI 1.4?*



> Quote:
> Probably not. Most of the new features introduced in HDMI 1.4 will require a new HDMI chip to enable, and cannot be upgraded via firmware.


 http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdm...1_4_faq.aspx#7 

*Also:*

http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/


----------



## RadicalxEdward

here's an article from hidef digest about 1.3c supporting 3d:
link


----------



## RadicalxEdward




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18447271
> 
> *Can older HDMI (v.1.0 - 1.3) devices be firmware-upgraded to take advantage of the new features introduced in HDMI 1.4?*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdm...1_4_faq.aspx#7



that's my point "most of the new features" stuff like the ps3 and things like that are being software upgraded to 1.4 because they don't have to support the physical stuff (ethernet channel, audio return, etc) to say that they are 1.4



Update:

The HD Guru article is interesting. Looks like even the top dogs don't know whats going on half the time. So this means 1.3c can't even do 1080i 3d??


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalxEdward* /forum/post/18447275
> 
> 
> here's an article from hidef digest about 1.3c supporting 3d:
> link



That article as it pertains to BD SAL players being upgradeable is BS.


The only truth to it is when you click on the Source article and read about CBL and SAT STBs because they don't deal with 1920x1080x24p frame packed 3D video. They are using SbS and O/U which are Half HD per eye as opposed to 3D BDs Full HD per eye. CBL and SAT are fitting 3D video into the same bandwith they normally use for an HD (1080i) signal.


----------



## RadicalxEdward




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18447310
> 
> 
> That article as it pertains to BD SAL players being upgradeable is BS.
> 
> 
> The only truth to it is when you click on the Source article and read about CBL and SAT STBs because they don't deal with 1920x1080x24p frame packed 3D video. They are using SbS and O/U which are Half HD per eye as opposed to 3D BDs Full HD per eye. CBL and SAT are fitting 3D video into the same bandwith they normally use for an HD (1080i) signal.



Hmm, but i guess a receiver wouldn't know to downgrade it from the way BD handles it in order to fit it over 1.3c?


It's a bummer either way. I just bought a refurb pioneer SC-25 which won't support 1.4 :-( luckily i'm not planning on buying a 3d tv until they are in the $700-$800 range for a 42" set and don't require stupid glasses. active or passive, having to wear extra glasses just to watch tv is stupid. especially when you already wear glasses.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalxEdward* /forum/post/18447284
> 
> 
> that's my point "most of the new features" stuff like the ps3 and things like that are being software upgraded to 1.4 because they don't have to support the physical stuff (ethernet channel, audio return, etc) to say that they are 1.4



Yes - only the PS3 can be upgraded to 3D BD specs due to the fact that it is a software based BD player while all other BD players are hardware based.



> Quote:
> Update:
> 
> The HD Guru article is interesting. Looks like even the top dogs don't know whats going on half the time. So this means 1.3c can't even do 1080i 3d??



1.3 can be used for CBL and SAT. Whether that signal can be passed through a 1.3 receiver is still unknown. Today, The Masters in 3D from CBL will start (3PM EST) so I am hoping that some of the reviewers of equip. will try it out to see what happens.


3D BD is different from 3D CBL and SAT.


----------



## RadicalxEdward




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18447341
> 
> 
> Yes - only the PS3 can be upgraded to 3D BD specs due to the fact that it is a software based BD player while all other BD players are hardware based.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.3 can be used for CBL and SAT. Whether that signal can be passed through a 1.3 receiver is still unknown. Today, The Masters in 3D from CBL will start (3PM EST) so I am hoping that some of the reviewers of equip. will try it out to see what happens.
> 
> 
> 3D BD is different from 3D CBL and SAT.



Ah ok. That makes sense. I appreciate you explaining all this without becoming a troll like a lot of other people in these forums.


In your opinion is 3D even worth the hassle and price at this point? I saw avatar in 3d and i'd like it a lot better in standard HD. 3D didn't seem to add anything to the experience and it was kind of annoying.


(and i had to pat myself on the back for being a home theater noob and actually understanding your post about the link i posted)


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalxEdward* /forum/post/18447364
> 
> 
> Ah ok. That makes sense. I appreciate you explaining all this without becoming a troll like a lot of other people in these forums.



My pleasure.











> Quote:
> In your opinion is 3D even worth the hassle and price at this point? I saw avatar in 3d and i'd like it a lot better in standard HD. 3D didn't seem to add anything to the experience and it was kind of annoying.



That is a subjective question. Each person has to answer it as it fits their own desire and wallet. Some (like me) will jump in early, while others will wait and still others will pass altogether. I have always been a fan of 3D and the ability to have it in my own home in S3D quality is a dream come true. Others may not feel the same way.



> Quote:
> (and i had to pat myself on the back for being a home theater noob and actually understanding your post about the link i posted)










It can easily be confusing because there is so much that hasn't been published about 3D.


----------



## RadicalxEdward




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18447458
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It can easily be confusing because there is so much that hasn't been published about 3D.



It's funny how long regular sd color tv held in there compared to the huge push to HD with 3D following up right behind it. and as soon as they get everyone to buy new 3d gear they're gonna say, oh wait, now you can buy 4k gear. and then they're gonna push 4k3D. lol maybe i should just wait 10 years to buy a tv lol. it'll be interesting to see what comes after that though.


----------



## obveron

I fully understand why we need this new HDMI spec for 3d. I'm would of liked to see 1080p60 framepacking (for gaming), but oh well, perhaps they'll add that in 1.5 or 1.4b or something.

I do understand for those that want the full resolution 3d, why they would need a HDMI 1.4 source, and of course a HDMI 1.4 3d ready display.


What I don't understand, is why the audio receiver needs to be 1.4. Can't it simply pass through the video (frame packed), without it recognizing and understanding that it's framepacked?. All one wants the receiver to do is decode and play the audio.


Are we going to need new AUDIO receivers everytime we want to use a new VIDEO format in a new HDMI spec?

Why should a receiver care about the video? If it sees LPCM or bitstream audio it understands, it should play it. It shouldn't care if the video is from another galaxy, it should pass it through and forget about it.


----------



## RadicalxEdward




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18447583
> 
> 
> I fully understand why we need this new HDMI spec for 3d. I'm would of liked to see 1080p60 framepacking (for gaming), but oh well, perhaps they'll add that in 1.5 or 1.4b or something.
> 
> I do understand for those that want the full resolution 3d, why they would need a HDMI 1.4 source, and of course a HDMI 1.4 3d ready display.
> 
> 
> What I don't understand, is why the audio receiver needs to be 1.4. Can't it simply pass through the video (frame packed), without it recognizing and understanding that it's framepacked?. All one wants the receiver to do is decode and play the audio.
> 
> 
> Are we going to need new AUDIO receivers everytime we want to use a new VIDEO format in a new HDMI spec?
> 
> Why should a receiver care about the video? If it sees LPCM or bitstream audio it understands, it should play it. It shouldn't care if the video is from another galaxy, it should pass it through and forget about it.



well considering how confusing the info for avr's is at the moment i can't imagine it's any clearer for ar's. Maybe you'll have to take a wait and see approach.


----------



## obveron

well its tough to get just an AR these days, especially one with full support for all HD audio formats.. pretty much everything is a AVR.

but how many people really want video processing, upscaling, etc?


it should decode and play the audio, and perhaps offer very basic video switching (as in a dumb passive switch, no analyzing the video, just switch the conductors).


it seems to me that the dudes who designed HDMI made it necessarry for the receivers to strip down every component of the HDMI signal, extract the audio stream and play it, then rebuild the hdmi signal from scratch, and output.

obviously to do this, the receiver will need to recognize every type of signal in order to break it down and rebuild it. which means new audio receivers, everytime a new video format is added to the HDMI spec.


but i just don't get why they designed it this way. if we get a new audio format in a hdmi spec, and you want to use it, you would need a new receiver, and that's fair. but if we get a new video format in a hdmi spec, and you want to use it, you need a new receiver too?! the guys who invented HDMI really fracked us all over on that one.


----------



## RadicalxEdward




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18447737
> 
> 
> well its tough to get just an AR these days, especially one with full support for all HD audio formats.. pretty much everything is a AVR.
> 
> but how many people really want video processing, upscaling, etc?
> 
> 
> it should decode and play the audio, and perhaps offer very basic video switching (as in a dumb passive switch, no analyzing the video, just switch the conductors).
> 
> 
> it seems to me that the dudes who designed HDMI made it necessarry for the receivers to strip down every component of the HDMI signal, extract the audio stream and play it, then rebuild the hdmi signal from scratch, and output.
> 
> obviously to do this, the receiver will need to recognize every type of signal in order to break it down and rebuild it. which means new audio receivers, everytime a new video format is added to the HDMI spec.
> 
> 
> but i just don't get why they designed it this way. if we get a new audio format in a hdmi spec, and you want to use it, you would need a new receiver, and that's fair. but if you get a new video format, and you want to use it, you need a new receiver too?! the guys who invented HDMI really fracked us all over on that one.



well considering the companies who developed HDMI are all big electronics companies i'm sure they'd love for you to have to buy a new receiver every time they update the spec.


Were you expecting them to act in the consumers best interest? lol



> Quote:
> *HDMI Founders*
> 
> Hitachi, Ltd.
> 
> Panasonic Corporation
> 
> Philips Consumer Electronics International B.V.
> 
> Silicon Image, Inc.
> 
> Sony Corporation
> 
> Thomson, Inc.
> 
> Toshiba Corporation


----------



## Lee Stewart

*Intel Provides Sneak Peek On Future Tech*



> Quote:
> Among the first devices expected to work their way into the consumer electronics space is Light Peak. Light Peak is an optical-based input/output interface first introduced last year at Intel's developer's forum and shown again at International CES by Intel CEO Paul Otellini. *It is designed to replace USB, HDMI and a host of other connectivity technologies,* said Jeff Demain, an Intel Labs researcher.


 http://www.twice.com/article/451185-...uture_Tech.php 


OK - so which emoticon should I use . . .








..................







................







..................


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18447082
> 
> 
> I don't understand why we need new audio receivers for hdmi 1.4.



I have heard a few different explanations about why current AV receivers can't transport 3D video but the best explanation I have heard was this one . Also the CEA organization is still working on 3D signaling and is thinking of using the HDMI 3D signaling implementation as the standard for CEA based connections (which includes DVI, HDMI, and DisplayPort).




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18447583
> 
> 
> I fully understand why we need this new HDMI spec for 3d. I'm would of liked to see 1080p60 framepacking (for gaming), but oh well, perhaps they'll add that in 1.5 or 1.4b or something.



1080p60 per eye video is listed in the HDMI 1.4a 3D specs but it requires a bandwidth of 297 MHz. The fastest HDMI 1.4a chips I have seen are limited to 225 MHz and that is likely the maximum bandwidth supported by the current generation of HDMI 1.4a products. M code has mentioned that AV receivers with higher bandwidth HDMI 1.4a chips will be seen in AV receivers late this year.


----------



## obveron

Yes, I've read about the infograms. It's just as I said, the receivers need to completely recognize the data stream, including the new infograms, timings, resolutions etc, in order to deconstruct the components, process, and rebuild from scratch.


What I take issue with is that fundemental design choice to deconstruct and rebuild. There could of been a standard header that points the receiver to the audio stream, and the receiver would simply decode that stream, convert to analog, and amplify, while ignoring the rest of the data stream completely.


If there are no new audio formats to decode, then we shouldn't need new receivers, but we do. Its just as RadEd said, they want us to buy new receivers. Frankly, I'm sure if enough consumers simply refused to buy new amps when there are no new audio formats released (but mere video formats), they would have designed the HDMI spec to allow for better compatibilty. but I'm sure there are hoards of people ditching their 1.3 amps for 1.4 amps. So we lose, and they won.



as for 1080p60 framepacking, yes I realize it's beyond the capabilty of existing chips. but thats just it, why not use faster chips? obviously new source hardware, and new display hardware is needed, so new hardware means they could have fitted them with new chips.

I think its simply the PS3 (which is the only source that can take a mere software update to be 1.4) that held everything back. Sony wants their PS3 to be 1.4, and if the HDMI 1.4 spec made 1080p60 framepacking mandatory instead of optional, the PS3 would fall short.


Personally I believe its gaming that will push 3D to the forefront, not 3d bluray, so lack of mandatory 1080p60 is a big thorn in the adoption of 3dtv.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18451635
> 
> 
> What I take issue with is that fundemental design choice to deconstruct and rebuild. There could of been a standard header that points the receiver to the audio stream, and the receiver would simply decode that stream, convert to analog, and amplify, while ignoring the rest of the data stream completely.



Since the audio data is in the blanking intervals of the video data HDMI chips have to have some knowledge of the video data. Full resolution 3D video changes the structure of the video data so I suspect that there are technical issues for the lack of backward compatibility in that regard.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18451635
> 
> 
> as for 1080p60 framepacking, yes I realize it's beyond the capabilty of existing chips. but thats just it, why not use faster chips?



Probably because they aren't currently being mass produced.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18451635
> 
> 
> I think its simply the PS3 (which is the only source that can take a mere software update to be 1.4) that held everything back. Sony wants their PS3 to be 1.4, and if the HDMI 1.4 spec made 1080p60 framepacking mandatory instead of optional, the PS3 would fall short.



You might want to read the HDMI 1.4a 3D mandatory format requirements since there is a big difference between a source device and a display device (a source device only needs to support one mandatory format). As such even if 1080p60 Frame Packing was added as a mandatory 3D format the PS3 could still be made HDMI 1.4a compliant.


----------



## kriktsemaj99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/18456232
> 
> 
> Since the audio data is in the blanking intervals of the video data HDMI chips have to have some knowledge of the video data. Full resolution 3D video changes the structure of the video data so I suspect that there are technical issues for the lack of backward compatibility in that regard.



This is something that I hope will be tested soon, because people with the new Samsung BD player could put it in forced 3D mode and see if their HDMI 1.3 receiver can extract the audio. But from reading the HDMI 1.3 spec. it seems clear that so-called "Data Island Periods" that contain the audio packets can always be identified, without knowing what the video format is.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18451635
> 
> 
> Personally I believe its gaming that will push 3D to the forefront, not 3d bluray, so lack of mandatory 1080p60 is a big thorn in the adoption of 3dtv.



For PC gamers I could see this being a major issue but for those who play game consoles I don't think it will be an issue for a very long time. Most major games released on the PS3 and Xbox 360 are at 720p30 (27 million pixels per second) and some major games like Halo 3 did less than that. When the next generation of game consoles come out will game developers design their games at 1080p60 per eye (248 million pixels per second)? That seems very unlikely and at best I could see game developers making next generation console games at 1080p60 (124 million pixels per second) for 2D TVs and 720p60 per eye (110 million pixels per second) for 3D TVs.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kriktsemaj99* /forum/post/18457471
> 
> 
> This is something that I hope will be tested soon, because people with the new Samsung BD player could put it in forced 3D mode and see if their HDMI 1.3 receiver can extract the audio. But from reading the HDMI 1.3 spec. it seems clear that so-called "Data Island Periods" that contain the audio packets can always be identified, without knowing what the video format is.



It will be interesting to see if full resolution 3D video and/or half resolution 3D video can work with HDMI 1.3 AV receivers. The fact that some AV receivers coming out even this year don't promote compatibility with 3D video makes me think that full resolution 3D video probably won't work with HDMI 1.3 AV receivers.


----------



## obveron

Actually you're right that many consoles games are rendered only at 1280x720 (or less) but a good portion of those run at a solid 60fps, or rendered variably at fps that atleast are higher than 30fps (most of the time).

They certainly aren't capped at 30fps.


Besides, I'm not talking about consoles, not this gen anyways. PC gaming has been bringing 3d to the forefront for a while now. Lack of 1080p60 framepacking will prevent PC gamers from using a 3dtv, and we're forced to stick with 3d capable 120hz monitors.

Modern PCs are capable of rendering playable frame rates in 1920x1080 stereo, certainly the next gen consoles will be capable of the same,,, well surely shouldn't be limited to 24p.


From what I've read about 3d graphics drivers, it doesn't really require twice the work to get the second set of frames for the other eye. Each scene isn't directly rendered by the game twice (that would offer the best quality but would be twice the work). Instead, the drivers find optimized ways to extrapolate 3d information and build the alternate frame.



I think you're right about mass produced hdmi chips. I'm sure we'll see faster chips in the future, and eventually 1080p60 3d. It may be a reason (for some) to hold off on a 3dtv until we see that upgrade.


It's a shame current 3dtvs don't just come with a 120hz dual link DVI input, like some PC monitors.

Clearly if the displays are displaying 120hz, the have capaibilty to give us that. perhaps the cost of manufacturing the 120hz dual link dvi input, deterred them (couldn't be that much).

I think they just like to have consumers under their hdmi thumb.

and of course, a perfect product might be in their reach, but no one would ever need to upgrade


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18466853
> 
> 
> Modern PCs are capable of rendering playable frame rates in 1920x1080 stereo, certainly the next gen consoles will be capable of the same,,,



Well current game consoles are capable of 1080p60. Just my opinion but I think a limit of 720p60 Frame Packing won't be much of an issue even with next generation game consoles. If someone was worried about this though they certainly should wait until HDMI 1.4a AV receivers are launched that can handle 1080p60 Frame Packing.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18466853
> 
> 
> From what I've read about 3d graphics drivers, it doesn't really require twice the work to get the second set of frames for the other eye. Each scene isn't directly rendered by the game twice (that would offer the best quality but would be twice the work). Instead, the drivers find optimized ways to extrapolate 3d information and build the alternate frame.



From the benchmarks I have seen 3D gaming cuts the frame rates by 50% to 60% so at best it cuts the frame rate in half.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18466853
> 
> 
> I think you're right about mass produced hdmi chips. I'm sure we'll see faster chips in the future, and eventually 1080p60 3d. It may be a reason (for some) to hold off on a 3dtv until we see that upgrade.



Certainly, and if someone considers 1080p60 Frame Packing to be an important feature they should make sure that the 3D TV they buy supports it.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18466853
> 
> 
> It's a shame current 3dtvs don't just come with a 120hz dual link DVI input, like some PC monitors.



Dual link DVI has twice the number of data signals as HDMI so it would be difficult to convert between them and the HDMI inputs would still be incapable of 1080p60 Frame Packing. It is easier for the CE companies to ignore the issue of 1080p60 Frame Packing this year than to draw attention to it since even most of the people interested in 3D won't find out about it until long after they bought the product. The same thing happened with the people who bought the first 1080p HDTVs who only found out later that they couldn't accept 1080p60.


----------



## SoundChex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18466853
> 
> 
> . . . I think you're right about mass produced hdmi chips. I'm sure we'll see faster chips in the future, and eventually 1080p60 3d. . .



NHK is already talking about SHV+3D. Even if they are only considering 3840x2160 3D frames (rather than 7680x4320), NHK is clearly anticipating much higher transfer rates within the next decade than are available over current HDMI...


----------



## walford

I am not sure what the maximum resolution/fps you can get with Dual Link HDMI or when we will seen TX or RX chips that support it but I believe that it will support 2 frame packed buffer 1080p/60 content for each eye. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI


----------



## obveron

HDMI 1.4 or 1.4a do not have a mandatory spec for 1080p60 framepacking. but if we ever see Dual Link HDMI, I'm sure we'll get that and much more.

I'm not sure we'll see much Type B dual link HDMI connectors and cables though, I think its more likely we'll just get slightly faster HDMI chips and continue with Type A connectors and cables. Who knows what the future will bring.

All I'm certain is, there will be more spec upgrades, and we will again, need to buy new receivers.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18472112
> 
> 
> Well dual link DVI already is quite capable of transporting 1920x1200 @ 120hz.



So what 3DTVs, AV Receivers, Game Consoles or 3D BD players have that kind of connection?


----------



## RoboRay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18472126
> 
> 
> So what 3DTVs, AV Receivers, Game Consoles or 3D BD players have that kind of connection?



As of right now, about as many 3D-capable devices have it as don't.


----------



## obveron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18472126
> 
> 
> So what 3DTVs, AV Receivers, Game Consoles or 3D BD players have that kind of connection?



My point exactly. (none that i know of)


For a very, very long time we've had Dual Link DVI and it has always been more than capable for what we currently need for 3d, and it even supports HDCP. Yet its penetration is mostly in the PC segment. 120hz seems exclusive to PCs. Its a shame we don't see it more, I suppose its too perfect.


HDMI offers alot, including lossless audio, but it always seems to be intentionally less than perfect, to ensure theres always an upgrade down the road.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18474561
> 
> 
> My point exactly. (none that i know of)
> 
> 
> For a very, very long time we've had Dual Link DVI and it has always been more than capable for what we currently need for 3d, and it even supports HDCP. Yet its penetration is mostly in the PC segment. 120hz seems exclusive to PCs. Its a shame we don't see it more, I suppose its too perfect.
> 
> 
> HDMI offers alot, including lossless audio, but it always seems to be intentionally less than perfect, to ensure theres always an upgrade down the road.



HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 both top out at 10.2 Gbps which I believe is 340 Mhz. We are nowheres near that kind of speed, meaning lots of room to grow.


----------



## Kingcarcas

Hope they make one with video processing, current one doesn't take sound through HDMI or the current audio codecs.


----------



## samendolaro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kingcarcas* /forum/post/18486447
> 
> 
> Hope they make one with video processing, current one doesn't take sound through HDMI or the current audio codecs.



Good luck to that...


Every 1.4 receiver released or announced to date has been a low end POS...


These manufacturers are trying to capitalize on the the new 3D buzz by changing a $3 chip on their low end sets which would allow 1.4 without sacrificing their existing line of high end stock.


If you are currently in the market for a new high end receiver you really have no choices right now. Don't get desperate and buy one of these new 1.4 products.. You will not be happy. By the same token I would not buy an older line if 3D is important to you.


Wait another 6 months to a year....


----------



## Petrus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samendolaro* /forum/post/18491963
> 
> 
> Good luck to that...
> 
> 
> Every 1.4 receiver released or announced to date has been a low end POS...
> 
> 
> These manufacturers are trying to capitalize on the the new 3D buzz by changing a $3 chip on their low end sets which would allow 1.4 without sacrificing their existing line of high end stock.
> 
> 
> If you are currently in the market for a new high end receiver you really have no choices right now. Don't get desperate and buy one of these new 1.4 products.. You will not be happy. By the same token I would not buy an older line if 3D is important to you.
> 
> 
> Wait another 6 months to a year....



Do you have anything to back that up, or are you just voicing an opinion? Pioneer should be out with their 1.4 compatible receivers in a month or so (with Elites to follow) and I've never viewed them as POSs...


----------



## samendolaro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Petrus* /forum/post/18494247
> 
> 
> Do you have anything to back that up, or are you just voicing an opinion? Pioneer should be out with their 1.4 compatible receivers in a month or so (with Elites to follow) and I've never viewed them as POSs...




Back up what ? The fact that these are entry-level receivers ?


don't take my word for it..
http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=...class=Receiver 



The fact that you even mentioned "with Elites to follow" should be a clue... let me ask you ... where is the press release that the elites are on their way ? Yes ..we know they will eventually be released just like all of the other high end receivers but they are not even announced yet.


All entry level receivers use cheap/cheaper components . You can be happy with one.. .. But if you compare their sound with a good receiver (using the same speakers) you can also tell the difference. Once you know what to listen for hen you may not be happy with it anymore.


----------



## [email protected]

samendolaro,


Do you honestly believe that in a double blind test a significant difference can be deciphered between the Pioneer base receivers and the Pioneer Elites?


I have an engineer friend who works for a major receiver manufacturer. He says that, yes, the component build quality is different, but that it's mostly snake oil in terms of audible differences.


So, besides opinion, what facts do you have?


Bill


----------



## samendolaro

If you have a $50 pair of speakers then it doesn't matter what receiver you buy. But if you have a good pair of speakers with a very good frequency response across the full range (20Hz-20kHz) then yes I can and have been able to tell the difference between high end and low end Onkyo's and Yahama's . I haven't heard any of the Pioneer's so I caouldn't comment on them directly.


You can actually hear the difference in the high's and lows and how the receiver may distort as specific frequencies increase in volume. You can also see how it deals with sound over time. Get the two receivers and listen to them in a "Cold" State. Then give them a 50% load for 30 minutes , Get the receivers heated up and then listen to the same . You will find that the receiver with the cheaper components tend to have their quality degrade as the receiver heats up.


Don't take my word for it, go sit in a store with a setup and do the comparison yourself. Nothing I say will or should convince you, audio is a very personal thing. What i think is important may not be to you.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *[email protected]* /forum/post/18499459
> 
> 
> samendolaro,
> 
> 
> Do you honestly believe that in a double blind test a significant difference can be deciphered between the Pioneer base receivers and the Pioneer Elites?
> 
> 
> I have an engineer friend who works for a major receiver manufacturer. He says that, yes, the component build quality is different, but that it's mostly snake oil in terms of audible differences.
> 
> 
> So, besides opinion, what facts do you have?
> 
> 
> Bill


----------



## ES_Revenge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cmonkey* /forum/post/18253465
> 
> 
> Indeed. Also, Sony has been talking about how the PS3 3D firmware update will make use of and require HDMI 1.4.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what all the announcements around 3d in 1.3b were about, as it seems Sony isn't even going to do that.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *UCFKevin* /forum/post/18255938
> 
> 
> So the PS3 will be able to update itself into HDMI 1.4? That's possible? Neat!



Actually I don't think that is possible. Given the [fat/original] PS3 can't even be updated to bitstream _nor_ to have HDMI-CEC (which are just subsets of HDMI, CEC not even needing 1.3), I have no idea how they would magically update it to 1.4. If that were the case they also would have updated it to bitstream and to have CEC, no?


3D players and TVs are out right now, hasn't any one tried out 3D signalling through a receiver that is "only" 1.3?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> HDMI offers alot, including lossless audio, but it always seems to be intentionally less than perfect, to ensure theres always an upgrade down the road.



What's even more funny is DVI is actually _fully capable_ of delivering audio as well, it's just not in the spec. The audio in HDMI travels in the same TMDS signal that the video does, and that's the same thing as in DVI. It's just not standard to throw it into a DVI input because none of them are designed for audio reception. However ATI does exactly that with it's DVI-HDMI dongle, in proprietary fashion.


----------



## Lee Stewart

*More Sony Audio Products Compatible With 3D Broadcasts*



> Quote:
> The three new products -- two active sound bars and a home-theater A/V receiver (AVR)/speaker package -- join a previously announced AVR and a previously announced Blu-ray-equipped home theater in a box system (HTiB) that offer the same 3D passthrough, or repeater, capability, Sony said. The previously announced AVR is the 7.1-channel STR-DN1010, shipping in June at an everyday retail of about $500. The Blu-ray HTiB is the BDV-HZ970W, due in the summer at a price that hasn't been revealed.
> 
> 
> Two other previously announced Blu-ray-equipped HTiBs -- the BDV-E570 at about $550 and BDV-E770W at about $650 -- feature HDMI 1.4 output, but they lack the HDMI inputs needed to accept 3D streams from 3D-capable cable or satellite set-top boxes. The two HTiBs' HDMI 1.4 outputs, however, will stream 3D Blu-ray video from their embedded Blu-ray transports when the company, during the summer, delivers a firmware upgrade that enables 3D Blu-ray playback.


 http://www.twice.com/article/451782-...Broadcasts.php


----------



## Lee Stewart

*From the above link:*



> Quote:
> Although support for 3D broadcast sources is specified only in the HDMI 1.4a specification, audio products with 1.4 inputs and outputs are theoretically capable of repeating the 3D broadcast formats, HDMI Licensing president Steve Venuti told TWICE. "I do know from our tests that if an A/V receiver can handle the frame-packing (3D) formats required in 1.4, they will not have a problem technically handling the 1.4a frame-compatible [broadcast] formats, which are essentially the same video structure of 2D video," he said. The broadcast formats are Side-by-Side Horizontal (1080i at 50Hz or 59.94/60Hz) and Top-and-Bottom (720p at 50Hz or 59.94/60Hz, and 1080p at 23.97/24Hz), HDMI Licensing said. He suggested, however, that individual suppliers need to run their own tests on individual AVRs and other audio products to confirm compatibility.


----------



## gti303

i still don't get why receivers are so huge...more and more people live in small condos....and more and more people are phasing out older products...so so many connections and circuitry are just not needed anymore....


samsung can make a TV like the 9 series thinner than pencil...but all receivers are still volumetrically the same as they were 30 years ago....


----------



## RoboRay

Because people keep wanting more and more functions jammed into the same box?


Receivers 30 years ago didn't include digital signal processors, room analysis and correction, digital-to-analog converters, analog-to-digital converters, video switching, video processing, video transcoding, inputs for a dozen or more separate source devices, network streaming, network and/or other controller capability, not to mention far more amp channels along with all the additional speaker outputs,.


Thirty years ago you had a relatively simple stereo pre-amp with three or four inputs, a couple of power amps, and maybe an AM/FM tuner. Look at how small something that only does that today is and compare *that* to a 30 year old equivalent.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gti303* /forum/post/18526245
> 
> 
> 
> samsung can make a TV like the 9 series thinner than pencil...but all receivers are still volumetrically the same as they were 30 years ago....





Yeah, but how many of those receivers 30 years ago, were only two channel stereo? Just think about how much more is in a receiver now, over what there was in them 30 years ago. Build a receiver now with only the capabilities of what they had 30 years ago, and it would more than likely be both smaller and lighter than the 30 years old version was. And also unless someone is specifically looking for only a 2 channel stereo receiver, nobody would probably want to buy that 30 year old technology now either, even if it was smaller and lighter.


----------



## gti303




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnla* /forum/post/18526436
> 
> 
> Yeah, but how many of those receivers 30 years ago, were only two channel stereo? Just think about how much more is in a receiver now, over what there was in them 30 years ago. Build a receiver now with only the capabilities of what they had 30 years ago, and it would more than likely be both smaller and lighter than the 30 years old version was. And also unless someone is specifically looking for only a 2 channel stereo receiver, nobody would probably want to buy that 30 year old technology now either, even if it was smaller and lighter.



that is true, and we do have so much in a receiver now...but the same can be said about TV's...more and more features, lighter and thinner packages. I think its just market demand.


I bought the Marantz NR1501, I'm happy with it, but just wish it was fully 1.4 spec. I'd be willing to buy another receiver, but there is not much choice for a receiver under 5.6 inches...(I am space confined)


----------



## ES_Revenge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18345110
> 
> 
> And 20 extra watts? LOL. Take a glass of water - fill it up half way. Now add two table spoons of water. THERE - you just added 20 watts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To make a difference in wattage, you have to DOUBLE. 120 to 240, etc.



No to go up _3dB_ you need double the power, not to make any difference at all. Even if you don't have double the power, the additional power also affords you more headroom. _But_ it's not like I believe the power claims of any of these receviers until I see a real test results anyway. A claimed 20W/ch increase may end up being only 5W in reality, knowing how they all like to inflate the numbers.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ES_Revenge* /forum/post/18528691
> 
> 
> No to go up _3dB_ you need double the power, not to make any difference at all. Even if you don't have double the power, the additional power also affords you more headroom. _But_ it's not like I believe the power claims of any of these receviers until I see a real test results anyway. A claimed 20W/ch increase may end up being only 5W in reality, knowing how they all like to inflate the numbers.



And how do you describe power in amps? By wattage per channel right?


----------



## PrimeGen




> Quote:
> 3D players and TVs are out right now, hasn't any one tried out 3D signalling through a receiver that is "only" 1.3?



I have a Samsung C8000, the 6900 3D player, and a 2009 model Onkyo receiver. No 3D signal through the receiver. The player needs a direct connection to the TV. The player even ackowledges this when you try.


- P.G.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gti303* /forum/post/18528335
> 
> 
> that is true, and we do have so much in a receiver now...but the same can be said about TV's...more and more features, lighter and thinner packages. I think its just market demand.



Yeah, sure TV's now are slimmer and also lighter, and they come in even bigger screen sizes and yet they still are thinner and lighter in weight. Sure many plasma and LCD TV's are nice. But 30 years ago all TV's used CRT's, and so far, nothing has matched the black level picture quality of a CRT. Although some plasma's are getting close, but LCD's still have a way to go on the black levels, plus LCD's off angle viewing is nothing great. So there still are some trade offs.


----------



## RoboRay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gti303* /forum/post/18528335
> 
> 
> that is true, and we do have so much in a receiver now...but the same can be said about TV's...more and more features, lighter and thinner packages. I think its just market demand.



You can't seriously be comparing the depth and weight of a 30 year-old CRT TV to the depth and weight current LCD or other flat panel TV, are you?


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samendolaro* /forum/post/18491963
> 
> 
> Every 1.4 receiver released or announced to date has been a low end POS...



Simply having an AV receiver is a huge leap in audio quality since most people use their TV speakers. Also the CNET review of the Onkyo TX-SR607 was very positive in regards to the sound quality and the Onkyo TX-SR608 has made several improvements in both audio and video.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ES_Revenge* /forum/post/18520446
> 
> 
> Actually I don't think that is possible. Given the [fat/original] PS3 can't even be updated to bitstream _nor_ to have HDMI-CEC (which are just subsets of HDMI, CEC not even needing 1.3), I have no idea how they would magically update it to 1.4. If that were the case they also would have updated it to bitstream and to have CEC, no?



Even though those two features couldn't be added it might have been due to hardware limitations so it may be possible that HDMI 1.4 3D InfoFrame support can be added to the original PS3. Also based on screenshots of the 3.20 debug firmware the "3D Video Output" option includes an "Automatic" mode. If those screenshots are accurate an automatic 3D mode for the PS3 would indicate that the PS3 can output HDMI 1.4 3D InfoFrames.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PrimeGen* /forum/post/18531319
> 
> 
> I have a Samsung C8000, the 6900 3D player, and a 2009 model Onkyo receiver. No 3D signal through the receiver. The player needs a direct connection to the TV. The player even ackowledges this when you try.



Did you try switching the "3D Mode" on the Blu-ray player from "Auto" to "3D"?


----------



## walford

Apparently the Onyko since it does not have a HDMI 1.4 receiver chip is providing EDID data that it can not receive 3D formatted data destined for a 3D TV which does have a HDMI 1.4 receiver chip.


----------



## kriktsemaj99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PrimeGen* /forum/post/18531319
> 
> 
> I have a Samsung C8000, the 6900 3D player, and a 2009 model Onkyo receiver. No 3D signal through the receiver. The player needs a direct connection to the TV. The player even ackowledges this when you try.



If you force the player to output 3D (change the 3D mode to "3D" instead of "Auto") it would be interesting to know whether the receiver can at least extract the audio from the 3D signal (I'm not expecting you'll see anything on your display though).


----------



## PrimeGen

I may try that, but not until the end of next week when I take everything apart to install my 1.4 ready 608 receiver that's en-route. I'll test the forced 3D with the '09 receiver before disconnecting everything and let you all know.


- P.G.


----------



## samendolaro

New Receivers from Denon

http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/04/26...-av-receivers/ 



But it looks like the AVR-4311CI is as good as it gets if you are looking for 1.4


----------



## ckellyusa

HDMI 1.4? It says that it's on all of the models :confused


----------



## Ruined

Bring on the HDMI 1.4 prepros!


----------



## fafner




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samendolaro* /forum/post/18544060
> 
> 
> New Receivers from Denon
> 
> http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/04/26...-av-receivers/
> 
> 
> 
> But it looks like the AVR-4311CI is as good as it gets if you are looking for 1.4



Link does not work.


fafner


----------



## samendolaro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fafner* /forum/post/18545092
> 
> 
> Link does not work.
> 
> 
> fafner



They must be moving it around..
http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/04/26...-av-receivers/ 
http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messag...81/631091.html 


try these


----------



## fafner

Thanks. Those links now work.


fafner


----------



## samendolaro

according to those articles the 4311 is now 9 channel which is an upgrade from the 4310 and more like the 4810. Hopefully they release the Specs soon.


I have a $2k Brandsmart gift card which is about to expire in October so it is burning a hole in my pocket...


----------



## ES_Revenge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18528796
> 
> 
> And how do you describe power in amps? By wattage per channel right?



Sure. Watts can describe power in _anything_ as Watts are, well, a unit of power. Car engines are often primarily quoted (in many parts of the world) in kilowatts too, but I have no idea how pointing out that a Watt is a unit of power has any bearing here--I fail to see what that has to do with what I was saying about 3dB increases and headroom












> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/18533111
> 
> 
> Even though those two features couldn't be added it might have been due to hardware limitations so it may be possible that HDMI 1.4 3D InfoFrame support can be added to the original PS3. Also based on screenshots of the 3.20 debug firmware the "3D Video Output" option includes an "Automatic" mode. If those screenshots are accurate an automatic 3D mode for the PS3 would indicate that the PS3 can output HDMI 1.4 3D InfoFrames.



I see. But if we assume that HDMI-CEC and bitstreaming could not be added due to "hardware limitations" (and I think that _is_ a safe assumption given the PS3 slim's capabilities and the fact that they would have added that to the old PS3 if it were possible), then will the transmission of HDMI 1.4 3D data make the PS3 actually "HDMI 1.4" or is it still 1.3 but capable of doing things over and above 1.3 standards?


And if the PS3 can be updated to allow such InfoFrames, why can't receivers (many of which are updatable via firmware) have a similar update to have "HDMI 1.4" capability? Why does everyone have to buy a new receiver?


----------



## walford

ES,

You stated that to go up 3DB you had to double the output power.


And Lee said that to double the output power you had to double the output wattage.

and he was just pointing out that ouput power available for audio equitpment is normally shown as a wattage .


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ES_Revenge* /forum/post/18547328
> 
> 
> Sure. Watts can describe power in _anything_ as Watts are, well, a unit of power. Car engines are often primarily quoted (in many parts of the world) in kilowatts too, but I have no idea how pointing out that a Watt is a unit of power has any bearing here--I fail to see what that has to do with what I was saying about 3dB increases and headroom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see. But if we assume that HDMI-CEC and bitstreaming could not be added due to "hardware limitations" (and I think that _is_ a safe assumption given the PS3 slim's capabilities and the fact that they would have added that to the old PS3 if it were possible), then will the transmission of HDMI 1.4 3D data make the PS3 actually "HDMI 1.4" or is it still 1.3 but capable of doing things over and above 1.3 standards?
> 
> 
> And if the PS3 can be updated to allow such InfoFrames, why can't receivers (many of which are updatable via firmware) have a similar update to have "HDMI 1.4" capability? Why does everyone have to buy a new receiver?



This is the HDMI 1.3 RX chip used in AVR's. Notice it has no support for 3D

*The SiI9135 is an advanced, dual-input HDMI® 1.3 receiver designed for high-definition (HD) digital A/V receivers.*

http://www.siliconimage.com/products...t.aspx?pid=109 



This is the HDMI 1.3 TX chip used in AVR's. Notice it does have support for 3D

*The SiI9134 is an advanced HDMI® 1.3 transmitter*

http://www.siliconimage.com/products...t.aspx?pid=102 


And there lies the problem. The 1.3 RX chip EDID doesn't support 3D while the 1.3 TX chip does. That means the 3D video never gets past the HDMI input connection - the RX chip because it doesn't recognize the 3D video portion of the signal.


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ES_Revenge* /forum/post/18528691
> 
> 
> No to go up _3dB_ you need double the power, not to make any difference at all. Even if you don't have double the power, the additional power also affords you more headroom.



That's right -- 3dB is substantially greater than the just noticeable difference in loudness. And any additional power affords you more headroom, obviously. I don't see how we can reach any conclusion about whether an additional 10W, or 100W, or whatever, gives an increase in fidelity by contemplating adding tablespoons of water to glasses. Like you, I just can't follow the logic.


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ES_Revenge* /forum/post/18547328
> 
> 
> And if the PS3 can be updated to allow such InfoFrames, why can't receivers (many of which are updatable via firmware) have a similar update to have "HDMI 1.4" capability?



As I imagine you know, you're asking us questions that we can't possibly answer, not being insiders on the PS3 engineering team. Does this somehow imply the PS3 is no more update-able for 1.4 functionality than other blu-ray players? No, it doesn't.


----------



## walford

If you can send 3D packed format frame format IAW with the 3D BR Full Hd standard format acceptale to a 3D TV which has a HDMI 1.4 receiver chip from a unit with a HDMI 1.3 tx chip by alteriing software and or firware creating the output format then it will be accepted and full 3D will be displayed by the TV. However, youmust use settings in the TV to tell it that is what 3D format you are sending. If you are sending the format from a HDMI 1.4 TX chip the 3D TV will accept and confiugre itself automatically for the format.

If a receiver with HDMI 1.3 and 1.3 output chips will pass throught HDMI 1.3 content with altering it's format or content then the 3D TV should accept it just as if you were sending it direct.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregLee* /forum/post/18550139
> 
> 
> That's right -- 3dB is substantially greater than the just noticeable difference in loudness. And any additional power affords you more headroom, obviously. I don't see how we can reach any conclusion about whether an additional 10W, or 100W, or whatever, gives an increase in fidelity by contemplating adding tablespoons of water to glasses. Like you, I just can't follow the logic.



Hmmmm . . .


OK - all things being equal - there is no decernable difference between a 100W per channel amp and a 110 W per channel amp. Not when it comes to producing sound levels.


----------



## kriktsemaj99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18548108
> 
> 
> ...And there lies the problem. The 1.3 RX chip EDID doesn't support 3D while the 1.3 TX chip does. That means the 3D video never gets past the HDMI input connection - the RX chip because it doesn't recognize the 3D video portion of the signal.



There might be a reason why the 9135 won't accept frame packed 3D, but EDID isn't it. EDID is passed upstream (from display to receiver and then receiver to player), but a player can be forced to output 3D regardless of whether the downstream device says it supports it.


It would be nice if Silicon Image explained why they added the note about 3D for the 9134 and not the 9135, but I doubt that's going to happen. Insiders in general are saying nothing, which is really irritating. This is supposed to be the 9135 data sheet, but I'm too cheap to pay for it (so far).


----------



## Dreamaholic

Picked up the Pioneer 1020 today at a local Best Buy. This was tough to find - it wasn't available on Amazon or Best Buy online. Only 1 store in my area any, and they only had 1. Got it hooked up last night but I'm still reading through the manual, there's a ton of features on this thing. If anyone has specific questions let me know.


----------



## NJ Jackals

Any news from Integra yet???


----------



## midnightman

Does anyone know if the Pioneer VSX-820-K has HDMI-ARC? They don't say a thing about Audio Return Channel and I don't know if HDMI 1.4 already implies ARC.


----------



## GregLee

I don't think the vsx-820 has ARC. ARC is listed as a feature for the vsx-1120, but not for the 520, 820, 920, or 1020.


----------



## midnightman

I've tried to give up my HTIB AV receiver and speakers, that's why I'm here. But I have a question though:


Why do HTIBs all use low impedance speakers (like 3 or 4 ohms)? Does that have any advantage over stand alone AV receivers and standard 8 ohm speakers?


Thanks in advance for any input.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *midnightman* /forum/post/18573996
> 
> 
> I've tried to give up my HTIB AV receiver and speakers, that's why I'm here. But I have a question though:
> 
> 
> Why do HTIBs all use low impedance speakers (like 3 or 4 ohms)? Does that have any advantage over stand alone AV receivers and standard 8 ohm speakers?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for any input.



The lower the Ohms - the less wattage need to drive them.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18574032
> 
> 
> The lower the Ohms - the less wattage need to drive them.



Not necessarily true. The power required to drive them to a particular level depends on sensitivity. A lot of the old 16 ohm speakers from the 50s will take a lot less power to drive to a particular level than most of todays 8 or 4 ohm speakers.


----------



## RoboRay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18574032
> 
> 
> The lower the Ohms - the less wattage need to drive them.



The higher the efficiency/sensitivity, the less wattage needed to drive them.


The lower the ohms, the more current flows for a given voltage, producing higher wattage from a smaller, lighter amplifier.


----------



## Lee Stewart

*Harman Kardon Adding HDMI 1.4a To AVRs*



> Quote:
> Beginning in September, Harman Kardon will make a running change to three of its four AVRs to upgrade them to HDMI 1.4a from HDMI 1.3. Also that month, the brand will offer consumers a software download to upgrade their existing AVRs to 1.4a.


 http://www.twice.com/article/452191-...4a_To_AVRs.php


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/18578710
> 
> *Harman Kardon Adding HDMI 1.4a To AVRs*
> 
> http://www.twice.com/article/452191-...4a_To_AVRs.php



Well that answers the question of whether current AV receivers can be firmware upgraded to HDMI 1.4a. And from the sounds of this Twice article there will be other companies as well:



> Quote:
> Some suppliers said they'll even offer firmware upgrades to select current and newly announced 1.3-equipped products to upgrade them to 1.4 or 1.4a


----------



## walford

I read that article to mean that HK now has 3 models that allready have HDMI 1.4 chips in them but they currently only have firmware in them to implement HDMI1.3 functinality and that they will supply a firmware upgrade to meet the full HDMI 1.4a specs.

Or they have HDMI 1.3 chips in them which are controlled by firmware an not hardware and therefore they can upgrade the firmware so that the 3 models can output all of the HDMI 1.4a 3D formats.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/18579199
> 
> 
> I read that article to mean that HK now has 3 models that allready have HDMI 1.4 chips in them but they currently only have firmware in them to implement HDMI1.3 functinality and that they will supply a firmware upgrade to meet the full HDMI 1.4a specs.



Two of the three Harman Kardon AV receivers that will receive a software upgrade to HDMI 1.4a were released last September so it is almost certain that they used HDMI 1.3 chips.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/18579199
> 
> 
> Or they have HDMI 1.3 chips in them which are controlled by firmware an not hardware and therefore they can upgrade the firmware so that the 3 models can output all of the HDMI 1.4a 3D formats.



Was there something about those AV receivers that made them easier to upgrade than other AV receivers? Maybe, but the fact that it can be done at all tells us that HDMI 1.3 chips aren't the limiting factor when it comes to upgrading a AV receiver to support 3D video.


----------



## walford

HDMI 1.4a specs are software buffer specifications so if a receiver made last fall had a HDMI 1.4 chip and could have it's handling of video content modified with firmware then it could upgrade to meet the all of the HDMI 1.4 and 1,4a 3D specifications.

The 1.4 specs were released almost a year ago so the boxes could have 1.4 chips.

http://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=101


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/18590390
> 
> 
> The 1.4 specs were released almost a year ago so the boxes could have 1.4 chips.
> 
> http://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=101



Do you think that Harman Kardon used HDMI 1.4 chips in those AV receivers but decided not to advertise that fact? To me that doesn't seem logical and if Harman Kardon had gone through all of the trouble to get HDMI 1.4 chips (that would have had to be sampled, tested, and mass produced in time to have them in AV receivers only 4 months after the HDMI 1.4 specs were released) I think they would have shouted it from the rooftops or at least mentioned it in the specs for those AV receivers. Also I have seen no evidence that HDMI 1.4 chips were mass produced last year and Silicon Image estimated in June of 2009 that they would begin sampling HDMI 1.4 chips in the second half of 2009.


----------



## walford

After re-reading the anounment I agree with you that the upgradable HK models must contain HDMI 1.3 transmitter chips which use firmware to control their output buffer formats. And this what will enable them to output 3D content using HDMI 1.4a 3D formats. However, this will not enable them to support other HDMI 1.4 functionality.


----------



## kriktsemaj99

I checked the service manuals for those upgradeable HK models, and they use the good old Silicon Image 9135 receiver and 9134 transmitter. The same chips are in most brands of HDMI 1.3 AVR, and if HK can make them pass 3D frame packed formats the others can. I'm sure they are programmed by firmware in all cases, nothing is hardwired to specific video formats.


Unfortunately the chances are pretty slim that some (probably most) manufacturers will offer upgrades. I wouldn't mind paying a nominal amount (say $50 or perhaps more) for 3D, but not many manufacturers have a scheme in place to charge for new firmware (I know Denon do, and they've charged for feature upgrades in the past).


----------



## walford

I disagree with your assumtion tha none ofl the AVRs using HDMI 1.3 chips do not also use standard ATSC video resolution chips from the merchant chip vendors since they can cost much less for to manufacture and test. And even if some of them do use general purpose processing chips and firmware to process HDMI 1.3 video content they may not have enough firmware space or memory available to process the HDMI 1.4 3D formats.


----------



## kriktsemaj99

Agreed that if an older AVR can process HDMI video, it probably can't be upgraded to process 3D. But most models either can't process HDMI video at all, or they have a pass through mode (which is all I'm really interested in). My Yamaha RX-V1800 just has the 9134 and 9135 connected directly together. The setup menu can be sent to the 9134, but it switches to a lower resolution to do that and takes over the whole screen.


Assuming HK really delivers working firmware, it'll be interesting to see if others feel they have to follow suit. I'm not really expect Yamaha will, given their past record (but I know there's plenty of spare room in the flash memory of my 1800).


----------



## rickhuizinga

I'm looking for a HDMI 1.4 receiver for my home theater and require a receiver with 2 HDMI outputs. One to drive a projector, and the other an LCD display.


I have only been able to find HDMI 1.4 receivers with one HDMI output. Is a dual output receiver available yet?


I'd hate to have to purchase an older HDMI 1.3 receiver, only to have to replace it in the future when I upgrade the projector to a 3D capable model.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rickhuizinga* /forum/post/18660490
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a HDMI 1.4 receiver for my home theater and require a receiver with 2 HDMI outputs. One to drive a projector, and the other an LCD display.
> 
> 
> I have only been able to find HDMI 1.4 receivers with one HDMI output. Is a dual output receiver available yet?
> 
> 
> I'd hate to have to purchase an older HDMI 1.3 receiver, only to have to replace it in the future when I upgrade the projector to a 3D capable model.



There will likely be higher end HDMI 1.4a AV receivers later this year with two HDMI outputs. If though you need to get an AV receiver soon have you considered getting a HDMI 1.4a AV receiver along with a HDMI 1.3 splitter? An HDMI 1.3 splitter can be found for under $40 on Monoprice and though you would have to eventually buy another HDMI splitter (since there are currently no HDMI 1.4a splitters) it would be a lot cheaper than replacing an AV receiver.


----------



## obveron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kriktsemaj99* /forum/post/18594617
> 
> 
> Agreed that if an older AVR can process HDMI video, it probably can't be upgraded to process 3D. But most models either can't process HDMI video at all, or they have a pass through mode (which is all I'm really interested in).



We're still not sure if older HDMI 1.3 receivers can lock on to the audio bitstream and pass through 3d video. Many are saying that if it doesn't recognize the video format, it won't decode the audio, even in pass through mode. We need someone to test it for us. If 1.3 hdmi pass through receivers can do the job, millions won't need to upgrade to enjoy 3d. For that simple reason, I think they've made it so we need to upgrade (more profits).


----------



## kriktsemaj99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/18661736
> 
> 
> We're still not sure if older HDMI 1.3 receivers can lock on to the audio bitstream and pass through 3d video.



The won't do it without a firmware update (this has now been verified in a few cases with a 3D Blu-ray player and display). But Harman Kardon's promise to upgrade some of their HDMI 1.3 models to support 3D shows that it is possible via an update.


----------



## THE DU3C3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rickhuizinga* /forum/post/18660490
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a HDMI 1.4 receiver for my home theater and require a receiver with 2 HDMI outputs. One to drive a projector, and the other an LCD display.
> 
> 
> I have only been able to find HDMI 1.4 receivers with one HDMI output. Is a dual output receiver available yet?
> 
> 
> I'd hate to have to purchase an older HDMI 1.3 receiver, only to have to replace it in the future when I upgrade the projector to a 3D capable model.



The upcoming Denon 4311 will have dual HDMI output. I think it comes out around July/August.


----------



## rickhuizinga

@THE DU3C3: thanks. Denon is saying that the 4311 will be coming out in September, but my home theater is scheduled to be completed by the end of July. I'm hoping it comes out early or some other model by then.


----------



## hpmoon

Official thread regarding Sony's first HDMI 1.4-compatible A/V receiver is here . Appears to be shipping now.


----------



## kriktsemaj99

Yamaha just released the promised firmware update that allows their new RX-V367/467/567 models to pass 3D. It can be downloaded from the Yamaha web site.

*Edit:* FWIW it seems (from the firmware) that these new Yamahas use the SiI9233A HDMI 1.4 receiver.


----------



## Lee Stewart

*Anthem's 1st AVRs Offer 1.4, Internet And HD Radio*



> Quote:
> New York - 3D-compatible HDMI 1.4 connections, Internet radio, HD Radio, and USB connections to hard drives and memory sticks are among the key features appearing in Anthem's inaugural A/V receiver (AVR) lineup.


 http://www.twice.com/article/453973-...d_HD_Radio.php


----------



## PHAMOS1

Interesting


----------



## GregLee

I had some lingering doubt that Pioneer's 2010 receivers really supported HDMI 1.4a. Now I see on the Pioneer product page for the vsx-1020-k: "HDMI® (V.1.4a with 3D) - 6 Inputs / 1 Output". Maybe the "1.4a" was there before, but if so I missed it, for all that I recall seeing previously is "1.4".


----------



## scarabaeus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregLee* /forum/post/18811346
> 
> 
> I had some lingering doubt that Pioneer's 2010 receivers really supported HDMI 1.4a. Now I see on the Pioneer product page for the vsx-1020-k: "HDMI® (V.1.4a with 3D) - 6 Inputs / 1 Output". Maybe the "1.4a" was there before, but if so I missed it, for all that I recall seeing previously is "1.4".



All HDMI 3D products manufactured from this month on have to adhere to version 1.4a. The 3D of version 1.4 has been phased out officially, and the transition period has ended.


----------



## hpmoon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scarabaeus* /forum/post/18812026
> 
> 
> All HDMI 3D products manufactured from this month on have to adhere to version 1.4a. The 3D of version 1.4 has been phased out officially, and the transition period has ended.



So, should I be worried if I just bought the Sony STR-DN1010 which lists 1.4 but not 1.4a compatibility? It lacks an Ethernet port so I can't imagine how any firmware upgrade would occur.


----------



## scarabaeus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hpmoon* /forum/post/18815605
> 
> 
> So, should I be worried if I just bought the Sony STR-DN1010 which lists 1.4 but not 1.4a compatibility? It lacks an Ethernet port so I can't imagine how any firmware upgrade would occur.



Maybe. I don't know specifically about the Sony, but the early Samsung 3D TVs (sold before may or so) required a firmware update via USB stick to get from 1.4 to 1.4a support.


You should be able to tell by the EDID of your device. Most devices support more than just the mandatory formats, or at least also list the mandatory formats as explicitly supported formats. If your EDID contains any Top-and-Bottom formats, then your device definitely conforms to 1.4a, otherwise maybe not.


----------



## hpmoon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scarabaeus* /forum/post/18817150
> 
> 
> Maybe. I don't know specifically about the Sony, but the early Samsung 3D TVs (sold before may or so) required a firmware update via USB stick to get from 1.4 to 1.4a support.
> 
> 
> You should be able to tell by the EDID of your device. Most devices support more than just the mandatory formats, or at least also list the mandatory formats as explicitly supported formats. If your EDID contains any Top-and-Bottom formats, then your device definitely conforms to 1.4a, otherwise maybe not.



Of course, the sole issue with respect to AVRs is not whether they understand 1.4a, but rather whether they can *pass through* 1.4a. Big difference. I'd bet on the latter, but we won't know for sure until the broadcast content tries to pass through.


----------



## scarabaeus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hpmoon* /forum/post/18820435
> 
> 
> Of course, the sole issue with respect to AVRs is not whether they understand 1.4a, but rather whether they can *pass through* 1.4a. Big difference. I'd bet on the latter, but we won't know for sure until the broadcast content tries to pass through.



For the frame compatible 3D modes, such as Top-and-Bottom and Side-by-Side, the video timing is still the same as for 2D, so the amp does not need to understand 3D timings, just pass it through. You are correct there.


But, for the frame packing formats used for Blu-ray 3D and playstation 3D gaming, the timings are new, so the amp actually needs to know them to be able to extract audio from the blanking areas.


Also, to pass through the 3D signaling (which currently only DirecTV does for broadcasting content), the amp, again, needs to know the 3D VSDBs and VSIs. For frame packing, the signaling is essential to make it work.


----------



## walford

I thought that 3D content from DirecTV was going to be in either 1080i or 720p SbS 3D format. The World cup is in 1080i SbS.


----------



## bcterp

Hopefully someone can straighten this out for me. I have a 1.3 receiver that I know can pass through 3d signals (I assume not frame packing but I have tested it with SBS, topbottom, checkerboard, etc). To avoid getting a new receiver I was hoping to hook things up like this:


Mitsubishi DLP > receiver > mitsubishi's 3d adapter > 1.4 HDMI switch > PS3, directv, xbox 360


I don't think there are any 1.4 switches available but I assume monoprice will soon have one for cheap. Is there any reason that this setup would not work? I know that the receiver can pass through a checkerboard signal that would come from the 3d adapter. My concern is all of this EDID business with the PS3 and directv. If my directv box and PS3 recognize the 3d adapter when plugged directly into it, would putting a 1.4 switch between them disrupt this? Perhaps I am asking this question too soon, patience is not one of my virtues.


----------



## scarabaeus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/18824923
> 
> 
> I thought that 3D content from DirecTV was going to be in either 1080i or 720p SbS 3D format. The World cup is in 1080i SbS.



Yes, that would work fine, but the DirecTV firmware requires a pass-through of the HDMI 1.4a 3D signalling through your AVR, or it will refuse to show the SbS 1080i signal. Who knows why they did that. If everything works, 3D is enabled automatically in your TV, but if not, then you don't even have the option to enable it manually in a menu of the TV.


Comcast and, reportedly, U-Verse do not even try this signalling for ESPN 3D, so you always have to enable it manually, even if you have complete HDMI 1.4a chain. From one extreme to another...


----------



## scarabaeus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bcterp* /forum/post/18825164
> 
> 
> Mitsubishi DLP > receiver > mitsubishi's 3d adapter > 1.4 HDMI switch > PS3, directv, xbox 360



Mits currently requires you to connect the converter between your amp and the TV, so it can detect the EDID. This means, your HDMI 1.3 receiver will block the 3D signalling to and from the source devices, and won't let the frame packing signal pass through.


Your proposed setup would otherwise be OK, probably. The converter will output 1080p checkerboard, and the receiver should be able to extract the audio from that. This, of course, only if the converter passes through the audio, which is not quite clear to me at this point.


So, you could try:

Mitsubishi DLP > receiver > EDID spoofer > mitsubishi's 3d adapter > 1.4 HDMI switch > PS3, directv, xbox 360


I think a more solid solution would be:

Mitsubishi DLP > mitsubishi's 3d adapter > 1.4a HDMI receiver > PS3, directv, xbox 360


Not sure how much the price difference between a (currently non-exiting?) HDMI 1.4a switch and an HDMI 1.4a receiver would be.


----------



## maygit

I'm sure this question has been asked prior;however, i do not feel like reading through 20+ pages to find it. My apologies for being lazy. I somewhat see the issue being debated above but it sounds like that's referencing direct tv's 3D versions.


I currently have an onkyo 606. Is it possible to run hdmi to the receiver, set the receiver to pass through, have the receiver steal the audio, and then the tv to display the 1080p 3d?


----------



## peter0328




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maygit* /forum/post/18826673
> 
> 
> I'm sure this question has been asked prior;however, i do not feel like reading through 20+ pages to find it. My apologies for being lazy. I somewhat see the issue being debated above but it sounds like that's referencing direct tv's 3D versions.
> 
> 
> I currently have an onkyo 606. Is it possible to run hdmi to the receiver, set the receiver to pass through, have the receiver steal the audio, and then the tv to display the 1080p 3d?



If Comcast: yes

If DirecTV: no


Comcast has no 3D flagging while DirecTV does.


In either case it is 1080i SbS 3D with standard 5.1 dolby sound. You can run the HDMI from the receiver to the 3DTV and run TOSLINK to the receiver to get the same video and audio quality.


----------



## maygit

I c. Then im guessing with blurays i will have to run an optical cable as well which will result in lower audio formats, correct?


----------



## scarabaeus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maygit* /forum/post/18826673
> 
> 
> I'm sure this question has been asked prior;however, i do not feel like reading through 20+ pages to find it. My apologies for being lazy. I somewhat see the issue being debated above but it sounds like that's referencing direct tv's 3D versions.
> 
> 
> I currently have an onkyo 606. Is it possible to run hdmi to the receiver, set the receiver to pass through, have the receiver steal the audio, and then the tv to display the 1080p 3d?



Your Onkyo is HDMI 1.3, right? In that case, 1080p from a 3D Blu-ray player will not work. 1080i from ESPN 3D, as peter0328 said, will work for Comcast and U-Verse, but not for DirecTV.


----------



## peter0328




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maygit* /forum/post/18827891
> 
> 
> I c. Then im guessing with blurays i will have to run an optical cable as well which will result in lower audio formats, correct?



Yeah. HDMI direct from BD player to 3DTV with optical audio for sound. Unless you get the Panasonic 300/350 then you do HDMI 1 to 3DTV and HDMI SUB for the A/V Receiver.


----------



## scarabaeus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *peter0328* /forum/post/18829636
> 
> 
> Yeah. HDMI direct from BD player to 3DTV with optical audio for sound. Unless you get the Panasonic 300/350 then you do HDMI 1 to 3DTV and HDMI SUB for the A/V Receiver.



Yes, that works very well. I tried this with the Panasonic and an older Onkyo. The Panasonic is outputting a black 1080i signal with the audio on the secondary output, while doing the 1080p24 frame packing on the main towards the TV.


In my setup, I have now these connections:


Oppo BDP83 --> Onkyo In1

TiVo --> Onkyo In2

Panasonic Sec.Out --> Onkyo In3

Onkyo Out --> TV In1

Panasonic MainOut --> TV In2


For 3D Blu-ray playback I use the TV input 2, and the AVR input 3.

For ESPN 3D I use the TV input 1, and the AVR input 2, and then have to manually switch the TV into SbS 3D mode.

And since I still love my Oppo, I use TV In1 and AVR In1 for 2D Blu-rays and DVDs.

Most of the switching happens automatically with CEC and HDMI VSDB/VSIs, pretty neat.


----------



## mgkdragn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hpmoon* /forum/post/18815605
> 
> 
> So, should I be worried if I just bought the Sony STR-DN1010 which lists 1.4 but not 1.4a compatibility? It lacks an Ethernet port so I can't imagine how any firmware upgrade would occur.



There are AVR's that use optical for a FW update


----------



## hpmoon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scarabaeus* /forum/post/18824655
> 
> 
> For the frame compatible 3D modes, such as Top-and-Bottom and Side-by-Side, the video timing is still the same as for 2D, so the amp does not need to understand 3D timings, just pass it through. You are correct there.
> 
> 
> But, for the frame packing formats used for Blu-ray 3D and playstation 3D gaming, the timings are new, so the amp actually needs to know them to be able to extract audio from the blanking areas.
> 
> 
> Also, to pass through the 3D signaling (which currently only DirecTV does for broadcasting content), the amp, again, needs to know the 3D VSDBs and VSIs. For frame packing, the signaling is essential to make it work.



I can confirm from my STR-DN1010 owners manual that those various frame packing specifications are a match. So that category of compliance evidently is not tied to 1.4a.


----------



## walford

The 3D formats listed are part of the HDMI 1.4 spec 1.4a added aditional formats.


----------



## bcterp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scarabaeus* /forum/post/18825882
> 
> 
> Mits currently requires you to connect the converter between your amp and the TV, so it can detect the EDID. This means, your HDMI 1.3 receiver will block the 3D signalling to and from the source devices, and won't let the frame packing signal pass through.
> 
> 
> Your proposed setup would otherwise be OK, probably. The converter will output 1080p checkerboard, and the receiver should be able to extract the audio from that. This, of course, only if the converter passes through the audio, which is not quite clear to me at this point.
> 
> 
> So, you could try:
> 
> Mitsubishi DLP > receiver > EDID spoofer > mitsubishi’s 3d adapter > 1.4 HDMI switch > PS3, directv, xbox 360
> 
> 
> I think a more solid solution would be:
> 
> Mitsubishi DLP > mitsubishi’s 3d adapter > 1.4a HDMI receiver > PS3, directv, xbox 360
> 
> 
> Not sure how much the price difference between a (currently non-exiting?) HDMI 1.4a switch and an HDMI 1.4a receiver would be.




To make things less complicated I bit the bullet and ordered a 3D ready Pioneer receiver. There's no way I could get this setup working without a switch and/or using optical audio cables to the receiver. By the way newegg has a nice deal going for these 1.4 pioneer receivers today, that's what sealed the deal for me.


----------



## scarabaeus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hpmoon* /forum/post/18830864
> 
> 
> I can confirm from my STR-DN1010 owners manual that those various frame packing specifications are a match. So that category of compliance evidently is not tied to 1.4a.



The latest manual here:
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/STRDN1010.pdf 

only lists mandatory and optional HDMI 1.4 formats, but no Top-and-Bottom, which is mandatory for HDMI 1.4a:


HDMI Video (3D)

Input/Output (HDMI Repeater block)

1280 × [email protected]/60 Hz Frame packing

1920 × [email protected]/60 Hz Frame packing

1920 × [email protected]/60 Hz Side-by-Side (Half)

1920 × [email protected]/60 Hz Side-by-Side (Half)

1280 × [email protected] Hz Frame packing

1920 × [email protected] Hz Frame packing

1920 × [email protected] Hz Side-by-Side (Half)

1920 × [email protected] Hz Side-by-Side (Half)

1920 × [email protected] Hz Frame packing


HDMI 1.4a made 1080i SbS mandatory, which this AVR supports, and added TnB, with 720p and 1080p24 as mandatory TnB formats, which this AVR does not support.


So, you might want to check back with Sony about firmware updates, there are currently none:
http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu...?mdl=STRDN1010


----------



## Elkhunter

I thought that Onkyo's new TX-NR3008 ($2,099) and the new TX-NR5008 ($2,699) would have the new HQV Vida chip, but according to TWICE they will have the "old" Reon.


The 9.2 channel AVRs will have eight 3D-ready HDMI 1.4a inputs and dual HDMI 1.4a outputs.


They are due in August.

http://www.twice.com/article/454335-...orked_AVRs.php


----------



## Friedchicken

Starter home theatre-in-a-box by Samsung with 1.4a/3D support:

HW-C770BS 

*Features*

• 7.1 channel

• 120W x 7ch

• 20Hz-50kHz

• Crystal Amp Pro

• Dolby® Pro Logic®

• Dolby® Digital Plus/Dolby® Digital TrueHD/DTS-HD™

• Compatible with iPod® (cradle included)

• Multi-channel input

• Multi-room

• Digital amplifier

• Variable power

*Audio*

• Smart volume

• Auto Sound Calibration (ASC)

• 3D Surround true HD audio decoder

*Connections*

• 4 HDMI® input, 1 output

• Anynet + (HDMI-CEC)

• Made for iPod

• Works with iPhone

• iPod Dock Cradle Included

• Component Output 1

• # of HDMI Input 4

• # of Audio Input 6

• # of Optical Input 3

• # of Coaxial Input 1

• Headphone Jack


----------



## samendolaro

The new Yamaha 3067 (replaces 3900) specs can be seen here...


Looks like it supports 11.2

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1228730&page=4 



Looks like availability for September..


----------



## hpmoon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scarabaeus* /forum/post/18836537
> 
> 
> The latest manual here:
> http://www.docs.sony.com/release/STRDN1010.pdf
> 
> only lists mandatory and optional HDMI 1.4 formats, but no Top-and-Bottom, which is mandatory for HDMI 1.4a:
> 
> 
> HDMI Video (3D)
> 
> Input/Output (HDMI Repeater block)
> 
> 1280 × [email protected]/60 Hz Frame packing
> 
> 1920 × [email protected]/60 Hz Frame packing
> 
> 1920 × [email protected]/60 Hz Side-by-Side (Half)
> 
> 1920 × [email protected]/60 Hz Side-by-Side (Half)
> 
> 1280 × [email protected] Hz Frame packing
> 
> 1920 × [email protected] Hz Frame packing
> 
> 1920 × [email protected] Hz Side-by-Side (Half)
> 
> 1920 × [email protected] Hz Side-by-Side (Half)
> 
> 1920 × [email protected] Hz Frame packing
> 
> 
> HDMI 1.4a made 1080i SbS mandatory, which this AVR supports, and added TnB, with 720p and 1080p24 as mandatory TnB formats, which this AVR does not support.
> 
> 
> So, you might want to check back with Sony about firmware updates, there are currently none:
> http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu...?mdl=STRDN1010



That certainly doesn't worry me. While I can't complain that the spec is forward-looking at the rare possibility of a broadcaster choosing to use that lower 720p resolution or that lower frame rate (when they are altogether going with side-by-side anyway), not a single broadcaster currently plans to use that spec and I don't expect any will.


----------



## GregLee

The Pioneer vsx-1020-k is advertised as supporting HDMI 1.4a, so it should allow a DirecTV satellite receiver to recognize that it is connected to a TV capable of showing the 3d sbs format which the satellite receiver sends. I finally got a Samsung pn58c8000 TV so I can test this. It works fine. Also, when I change to and from a DirecTV 3d channel, the TV correctly switches to and from 3d mode.


----------



## Av8tr

Just ordered the Pioneer 1020 from Amazon. I also ordered the bluetooth adaptor because I have an iphone and will likely use it a lot with the receiver. I was very pleased and surprised at the final price. $512.99 with free shipping. That includes the adaptor. They applied a $90 promotional thing; have no idea where it came from, but I'll take it










One of the Amazon reviewers stated that the bluetooth only worked to 12 feet for him. I hope that's not the case with mine. Anyone here of that?


Now what to do with my old Yamaha v1400?


----------



## doubledown88

Anyone get the lower end Pioneer Receivers? The 520 or 820? Just curious. I have an older Sony receiver without HDMI (STR-DA1000ES) and I'm wondering if this would be a better route. I don't drive major speakers, but I would like something decent.


My current setup is HDMI to my TV (for video) and optical to my receiver (for audio). I have a WOW! Cable Box, PS3 and 360 and a Wii (which I may sell...so that is not a driving force for anything).


Cable Box and Wii use Component, but I could use HDMI for cable box.


I also just got the Samsung 55C7000 TV.


----------



## pmalter0




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doubledown88* /forum/post/18914189
> 
> 
> Anyone get the lower end Pioneer Receivers? The 520 or 820? Just curious. I have an older Sony receiver without HDMI (STR-DA1000ES) and I'm wondering if this would be a better route. I don't drive major speakers, but I would like something decent.
> 
> 
> My current setup is HDMI to my TV (for video) and optical to my receiver (for audio). I have a WOW! Cable Box, PS3 and 360 and a Wii (which I may sell...so that is not a driving force for anything).
> 
> 
> Cable Box and Wii use Component, but I could use HDMI for cable box.
> 
> 
> I also just got the Samsung 55C7000 TV.



Check the specs, features and price at Amazon for the Onkyo TX-SR508--I think you will be impressed(Pioneer's actual power is less than advertised power).


----------



## pmalter0




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Av8tr* /forum/post/18913080
> 
> 
> 
> Now what to do with my old Yamaha v1400?



I'm selling my old receiver on craigslist.


----------



## doubledown88




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pmalter0* /forum/post/18914615
> 
> 
> Check the specs, features and price at Amazon for the Onkyo TX-SR508--I think you will be impressed(Pioneer's actual power is less than advertised power).



After reading reviews on the Onkyo, it appears that there are numerous issues with it and the PS3.


Any other decent 3D receivers to consider?


----------



## pmalter0




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doubledown88* /forum/post/18914853
> 
> 
> After reading reviews on the Onkyo, it appears that there are numerous issues with it and the PS3.
> 
> 
> Any other decent 3D receivers to consider?



The only reviews of the current series I've seen is Cnet's review of the 608(which is great, but more than you want), what review are you talking about?

Nevermind--I found the posts on this website.


I have been an Onkyo owner for years, and have no personal experience with other brands.


----------



## doubledown88




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pmalter0* /forum/post/18914918
> 
> 
> The only reviews of the current series I've seen is Cnet's review of the 608(which is great, but more than you want), what review are you talking about?



I noticed on Amazon there were people saying the dashboard would lose video on the PS3. I did a google search and noticed the same thing on a AVS thread.


My setup would be pretty simple, route everything through my receiver (Cable/PS3/360/Wii). All would use HDMI (except Wii). Thus, I would only have to use one or possibly two inputs in my TV.


----------



## spartanshu

Having read this entire thread, I have a few questions that I'm hoping can be answered. I'm operating under the assumption that the Gefen EDID device will enable Mits adapter for my Sammy 3D DLP. That said, my 3D devices are a HTPC, DirecTV (HR-21), and a PS3. I'm considering the Onkyo 608, Denon AVR-791, and the Pioneer VSX-1020-K.


1. Will anybody with a 3DC-100 adapter confirm that you can use AVR receivers to pass a 3D signal?


2. Which of the above receivers will pass DirecTV's 3D signal? Can anybody confirm that the reported problems with the Onkyo 608 are widespread or limited? It (608) seems to have a ton of features but if it isn't going to work with my PS3 and DirecTV, I don't want it.

Many thanks...


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spartanshu* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 2. Which of the above receivers will pass DirecTV's 3D signal?



As I said above, the Pioneer vsx-1020-k passes DirecTV's 3D signal. It also seems to work fine with my consoles: PS3, Xbox360, Wii. I haven't tried the PS3 with 3D games yet.


----------



## pmalter0




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spartanshu* /forum/post/18917323
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Which of the above receivers will pass DirecTV's 3D signal? Can anybody confirm that the reported problems with the Onkyo 608 are widespread or limited? It (608) seems to have a ton of features but if it isn't going to work with my PS3 and DirecTV, I don't want it.
> 
> Many thanks...



Google shows a 4 1/2 star rating for the 608 out of 96 reviewers--so the problems appear to be limited. When comparing receivers check the specs carefully; the 608 puts out _more_ honest power than it's advertised power; others put out less.


----------



## doubledown88

So, I'm kicking around getting the Sony STR-DN1010 or the Onkyo 508 or possibly the Pioneer 820 series.


I currently have an older Sony STR-DA1000ES receiver, and I'm wondering if I'll miss anything.


----------



## hpmoon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doubledown88* /forum/post/18937877
> 
> 
> So, I'm kicking around getting the Sony STR-DN1010 or the Onkyo 508 or possibly the Pioneer 820 series.
> 
> 
> I currently have an older Sony STR-DA1000ES receiver, and I'm wondering if I'll miss anything.



I got the Sony STR-DN1010, but have mixed feelings about it. Since I hook up my computer to my flat panel via the HDMI of the receiver, the picture is brightened considerably and degraded, as if the receiver is trying to process the true 1080p input (I checked) into an "upscaled" 1080p all over again.


Also, HDMI switching involves a crazy long delay, and often fakes the computer into thinking it's a 720p source. Not sure if this is a common problem in A/V receivers, but it certainly pisses me off.


----------



## walford

hpmoon,

have you tried sending the 1080p/60 or 1080p/24 directly to your Flat panel directly instead of via your receiver?

What is the native resolution of your flat panel?


----------



## wiggo

Sony announced their 3D capable ES receivers a few weeks ago. The official press release is here: http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_ro...ase/57894.html 


I'll finally be able to clean up my rat's nest of cables in September when I get my 5600ES.


----------



## hpmoon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/18944359
> 
> 
> hpmoon,
> 
> have you tried sending the 1080p/60 or 1080p/24 directly to your Flat panel directly instead of via your receiver?
> 
> What is the native resolution of your flat panel?



Yes, before getting the receiver in-between, I had been sending 1080p to the flat panel directly and it worked without a hitch.


The native resolution of the panel is 1080 lines, progressive.


One thing I'm exploring (but am not sure if it will remedy) is setting the refresh rate to 59 Hz instead of 60 Hz. Did anyone find that this can be the culprit (since I had the habit of always setting my HDTV to 60 Hz from the PC)? I've read on the Web randomly that HDTVs are most "comfortable" being recognized as 59 Hz rather than 60 Hz (compared to computer monitors, which are always 60 Hz).


----------



## everyperson

I have it hooked up and 3D pass through works perfectly(Samsung PN58c8000 plasma) with Directv(HR24-500). It has all the connections for perfect connectivity with 3D. Just HDMI to HDMI. I had a Denon 3008ci and traded it in for this new one.


Specs here: http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/5340.asp


----------



## DarrenK

Okay, most of the talk in here is WAY over my head. But I do have a question. I have a Samsung PN50C8000 and BDC-6900. Both have 3D. I have a small 5.1 system someone gave me as a gift a few years ago (Athena Micro or something). Since this is a bedroom TV, I am looking for an inexpensive receiver to go with this set-up, which can do 3D via HDMI and has ARC. It looks like the Onkyo TS308 can, as well as the Denon AVR-591 and the Yamaha HTR-5063 which are both about the same price, but they are at least $130 more than the Onkyo. Any thoughts on my best choice, keeping budget in mind, and the fact this is a bedroom set up?


DarrenK


----------



## Av8tr

The Pioneer 520 would work well for you too. Only $200 at Amazon and it's fully ready for 3D. I have the 1020, but the 520 has the same 3D connections.


Have we finally figured what receiver works best for 3D on this thread? I only have a couple more weeks before I'll be stuck with my Pioneer. I really like the way the Denons are sounding, but I'd still like to hear from some 3d users before sending the Pioneer back.


----------



## DarrenK




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Av8tr* /forum/post/18975053
> 
> 
> The Pioneer 520 would work well for you too. Only $200 at Amazon and it's fully ready for 3D. I have the 1020, but the 520 has the same 3D connections.
> 
> 
> Have we finally figured what receiver works best for 3D on this thread? I only have a couple more weeks before I'll be stuck with my Pioneer. I really like the way the Denons are sounding, but I'd still like to hear from some 3d users before sending the Pioneer back.



The Pioneer does not have ARC, or I would have already bought it. Amazon does have a great price, and a free bluetooth dongle if you buy it by 7/31/10.


DarrenK


----------



## Cinderelli




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samendolaro* /forum/post/18491963
> 
> 
> Good luck to that...
> 
> 
> Every 1.4 receiver released or announced to date has been a low end POS...
> 
> 
> These manufacturers are trying to capitalize on the the new 3D buzz by changing a $3 chip on their low end sets which would allow 1.4 without sacrificing their existing line of high end stock.
> 
> 
> If you are currently in the market for a new high end receiver you really have no choices right now. Don't get desperate and buy one of these new 1.4 products.. You will not be happy. By the same token I would not buy an older line if 3D is important to you.
> 
> 
> Wait another 6 months to a year....



Excellent advice, I am in that position now.


----------



## Cinderelli




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregLee* /forum/post/18411452
> 
> 
> If I knew the firmware would need an update, I certainly would not buy it, knowing I'd have to disconnect it from all my equipment, box it up, drive to a UPS store to ship it, do without it for an indeterminate time, and so on. What a hassle. However, I have two Pioneer receivers now which never required a firmware update, so I will probably risk it for the 1020.
> 
> 
> I'd really like to find a 3D TV that could be updated over the net, for the sake of getting better versions of the 2D->3D conversion software.



The Panasonic TC-P65VT25 has this capability, I have already done it.


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cinderelli* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Panasonic TC-P65VT25 has this capability, I have already done it.



I was concerned about updating firmware over the net for my AVR, because I wasn't sure the Pioneer vsx-1020-k supported hdmi 1.4a (so I could route 3d from DirecTV through it), but that turned out not to be a problem. The 1020 does support hdmi 1.4a and does handle the DirecTV 3d format. And the TV I bought, Samsung pn58c8000, does do firmware updates over the net.


----------



## Av8tr

Are you sure the 1020 handles 3D from Direct tv? I tried running my HDMI thru my 1020 to the adapter, and it wouldn't work. When I bypassed the receiver it worked fine. I guess I will try it again. Maybe I missed something when I tried it before.


----------



## zkalra

Does the Sammy un55c7000 support hdmi 1.4??


----------



## peter0328




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zkalra* /forum/post/18986415
> 
> 
> Does the Sammy un55c7000 support hdmi 1.4??



yes


----------



## elixxxer

Could someone explain to me the science behind WHY a new receiver is needed to output 3D? If, for instance, you have a bluray player of some sort (like my PS3 that will eventually be 3D capable), you don't want the receiver processing the video signal anyway. Why can't an old receiver simply pass the signal straight through? If 1.3 cables can pass a 3D signal, why can't a 1.3 receiver?


----------



## walford




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *elixxxer* /forum/post/18987173
> 
> 
> Could someone explain to me the science behind WHY a new receiver is needed to output 3D? If, for instance, you have a bluray player of some sort (like my PS3 that will eventually be 3D capable), you don't want the receiver processing the video signal anyway. Why can't an old receiver simply pass the signal straight through? If 1.3 cables can pass a 3D signal, why can't a 1.3 receiver?



Some but not many 1.3 receivers can pass the incoming content out ontouched or unmodified and these will work fine but they cannot extract the audio from the 1980x2205 Packed frame HDMI 1.4a format from a 3D BR disk player sinc the audio is not in the same location as it is in a 1980x1020 HDMI HD format and in the HDMI 1.4a SbS or TnB format.


----------



## zkalra




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *peter0328* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> yes



Tks. You think by getting the 1.4 cable the crosstalk could be reduced?? I doubt it personally but just checking nevertheless.


----------



## elixxxer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/18987250
> 
> 
> Some but not many 1.3 receivers can pass the incoming content out ontouched or unmodified and these will work fine but they cannot extract the audio from the 1980x2205 Packed frame HDMI 1.4a format from a 3D BR disk player sinc the audio is not in the same location as it is in a 1980x1020 HDMI HD format and in the HDMI 1.4a SbS or TnB format.



Thank you, that is exactly what I did not understand and the clarification I was looking for. I just bought a Samsung PN507000 and although 3D is not something I'm generally interested in, I'm annoyed I will need to pay $250 more for what is essentially the same receiver just to enjoy the capability should I want it. I'm having a tough time deciding between an Onkyo RC180 or an Onkyo 808, especially since the 808 is brand new and having all of the usual teething problems.


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Av8tr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you sure the 1020 handles 3D from Direct tv?



I'm sure that it handles 3D from channel n3D sometimes, for I've watched it around 15 times. I don't know about ESPN3D yet, because there hasn't been anything on there since I got my 3dtv. There are some glitches, but I think (not sure) that they are bugs in the DirecTV software, rather than problems with the 1020. For instance, I just discovered that if I'm tuned to an HD 2d channel, I have no problem changing channels to channel n3D, but if I'm tuned to an SD 2d channel, I get an error if I try to change channels to n3D.


So, I can't be sure the 1020 does handle the DirecTV 3d signals correctly. It's complicated. Put it this way: I haven't yet encountered an error I can associate with the 1020.


----------



## walford




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zkalra* /forum/post/18987842
> 
> 
> Tks. You think by getting the 1.4 cable the crosstalk could be reduced?? I doubt it personally but just checking nevertheless.



The Yes reponse was that the c7000 supported HDMI 1.4 which it of course does since it has 1.4 receiver chip not a 1.3 receiver chip.

Any HDMI high speed cable supports all of the HDMI 1.4a 3D formats.

HDMI cables do not cause cross talk in 3D active shutter glases.


----------



## Av8tr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregLee* /forum/post/18987960
> 
> 
> I'm sure that it handles 3D from channel n3D sometimes, for I've watched it around 15 times. I don't know about ESPN3D yet, because there hasn't been anything on there since I got my 3dtv. There are some glitches, but I think (not sure) that they are bugs in the DirecTV software, rather than problems with the 1020. For instance, I just discovered that if I'm tuned to an HD 2d channel, I have no problem changing channels to channel n3D, but if I'm tuned to an SD 2d channel, I get an error if I try to change channels to n3D.
> 
> 
> So, I can't be sure the 1020 does handle the DirecTV 3d signals correctly. It's complicated. Put it this way: I haven't yet encountered an error I can associate with the 1020.



Thanks for your input. I tried it again last night, but still can't get it to work at all. 3D from by BD is spectacular. In fact all other facets of my home theater have exceeded my expectations, but no joy with 3D from Directv while going thru my AVR.


----------



## walford

Greg,

Here is a link to the ESPN-3D fall schedule sorry you missed the X-Games this weekend:

http://espn.go.com/3d/schedule.html


----------



## GregLee

Thanks, walford. I did see the X-games, but DirecTV carried them on channel n3D instead of ESPN3D, for some reason.


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Av8tr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I tried it again last night, but still can't get it to work at all. 3D from by BD is spectacular. In fact all other facets of my home theater have exceeded my expectations, but no joy with 3D from Directv while going thru my AVR.



Sorry about that. Maybe it's some sort of hdmi issue involving both the 1020 and your adapter.


----------



## MoviesLover




Quote:
Originally Posted by samendolaro View Post
Good luck to that...
Every 1.4 receiver released or announced to date has been a low end POS...
These manufacturers are trying to capitalize on the the new 3D buzz by changing a $3 chip on their low end sets which would allow 1.4 without sacrificing their existing line of high end stock.
If you are currently in the market for a new high end receiver you really have no choices right now. Don't get desperate and buy one of these new 1.4 products.. You will not be happy. By the same token I would not buy an older line if 3D is important to you.
Wait another 6 months to a year....
____________________________________________
Excellent advice said:


> _________________________________________
> 
> 
> I DONT THINK THAT I CORRECTLY CAPTURED THE ABOVE QUOTES BUT THE "ALL ARE POS" COMMENT CAME FROM *samendolaro* AND THE "EXCELLENT ADVICE" COMMENT FROM *cinderelli*.
> 
> 
> MY QUESTION IS WHAT DO OTHERS THINK? I AM LOOKING TO BUY A REPLACEMENT TO MY OLD YAMAHA 2095 TO GO WITH 5.1 M&K 4 OHM SPEAKER SETUP. WAS LOOKING AT DENON 3311 OR 4311 OR THE YAMAHA 3067. HARD TO SEE WHY THESE ARE "POS"!?!? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/image...s/confused.gif


----------



## GregLee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MoviesLover* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I DONT THINK THAT I CORRECTLY CAPTURED THE ABOVE QUOTES BUT THE "ALL ARE POS" COMMENT CAME FROM samendolaro AND THE "EXCELLENT ADVICE" COMMENT FROM cinderelli.
> 
> 
> MY QUESTION IS WHAT DO OTHERS THINK?



I don't have any experience with driving 4 ohm speakers (mine are 6 and 8 ohm) or the systems you're especially interested in. But in general, I think you should just ignore opinions advanced without any accompanying evidence. That's what I do.


----------



## Av8tr

Yes, I saw those comments and ignored them too. Just audiophile snobs


----------



## pmalter0




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Av8tr* /forum/post/18991467
> 
> 
> Yes, I saw those comments and ignored them too. Just audiophile snobs



They probably swear by monster cable too


----------



## zkalra

Will 1.4 reduce crosstalk??


----------



## walford

No


----------



## dreaux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rickhuizinga* /forum/post/18660490
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a HDMI 1.4 receiver for my home theater and require a receiver with 2 HDMI outputs. One to drive a projector, and the other an LCD display.
> 
> 
> I have only been able to find HDMI 1.4 receivers with one HDMI output. Is a dual output receiver available yet?
> 
> 
> I'd hate to have to purchase an older HDMI 1.3 receiver, only to have to replace it in the future when I upgrade the projector to a 3D capable model.



Pioneer elite VSX-33


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## djezdic

Could anyone compare the Denon avr 590 to the Yamaha htr-3063bl to the Pioneer vsx-520-k for a a/v newbie like me( or any other receiver thats alike in that price range ) I know that I need one that has the component to hdmi switching that is a key feature for me because I cant get hdmi cable boxes where I live. I plan on hooking it up to some energy take classics( if the wife approves the financing that is ) I would really appreciate any details so I can make an educated choice. thank you very much.


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## cdnbum88




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/18988559
> 
> 
> The Yes reponse was that the c7000 supported HDMI 1.4 which it of course does since it has 1.4 receiver chip not a 1.3 receiver chip.
> 
> Any HDMI high speed cable supports all of the HDMI 1.4a 3D formats.
> 
> HDMI cables do not cause cross talk in 3D active shutter glases.



So to add onto this. I have a Denon 3808ci avr and will be buying the new Oppo 93 and a new 3d capable tv. I was planning on having one 1.4 hdmi cable to tv and then another (existing 1.3 or should I buy new 1.4) to run to my avr.


So based on what you mentioned above this will not work or will most likely have issues? I don't plan on watching much 3d anyway, but thought this would be an acceptable workaround.


Thanks for your help.


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## walford

It is no longer legal to make HDMI cables labeles as 1.3 or 1.4 cables all HDMI high speed cables support all HDMI 1.4a 3d formats. See:

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/tra..._logo_pub.aspx 


Most likly the HDMI 1.3 labeled cable you have is a HDMI high speed cable if it is less then 25 feet long.


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## kryloc

Quote:

Originally Posted by *walford* 
Some but not many 1.3 receivers can pass the incoming content out ontouched or unmodified and these will work fine but they cannot extract the audio from the 1980x2205 Packed frame HDMI 1.4a format from a 3D BR disk player sinc the audio is not in the same location as it is in a 1980x1020 HDMI HD format and in the HDMI 1.4a SbS or TnB format.
Sorry for reviving a dead thread, but I was wonder is this why Bluray cannot pass through a 1.3 receiver, Onkyo 707, but other formats can? Xbox, Cable. Both are HD, but cable and the xbox only do 5.1, where as bluray does HD Loseless Audio. Currently using a ps3, which has to send it as PCM, would a bluray player that can send it Bitstream work? Did I ramble that a tad?










Don't really have a desire to upgrade to a 500-600 dollar receiver just 2 years later.(or purchase another bluray player)


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