# Very High Quality DIY speakers anywhere?



## Ted White

Looking for plans for very high quality theater speakers. I'm not into design software, but rather looking for some plans that have been proven winners.


Anyone?


Ted


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## mburnstein

Ted,

Call www.meniscusaudio.com and ask for Mark

They can build speakers with accuton ceramic drivers and Eton Kevlar drivers that will be right up there with the Big Boys! They built me a custom 4 way 2 enclosure center channel speaker.

Regards, Mark
[email protected]


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## Ted White

Thanks Mark, but I'm looking to build them myself. What I need are some directions, etc. A recipe.


Ted


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## Mouw











Saw these at *Speaker City USA*


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## mburnstein




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ted White_
> *Thanks Mark, but I'm looking to build them myself. What I need are some directions, etc. A recipe.
> 
> 
> Ted*



Meniscus Audio can supply parts and plans of cabinets and crossovers as well as build them if requested.

additional places http://madisound.com/ and http://zalytron.com/


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## Ted White

These are good. Has anyone actually heard these? I was thinking there was a "best of class" out there that has been tested and heard by some of you out there.


Ted


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## J. L.

I am in the middle of building the Audax Home Theater Center channel speaker. I will be in a position to let you know first hand how it sounds in about a week.

The center speaker is described here 

Full plans and description are at this link. (A corrected and updated PDF copy of the plans that used to be on the old USA Audax web-site) 

More construction details at this link 

Two minor errors in the plans published on the Audax web-site are described here 


I ordered the kit of parts from Madisound ( http://www.madisound.com )and I am building the cabinet myself. They did have cabinets available, but if I bought it assembled, I would not get to make as much sawdust.


I plan on building the full HT set of speakers but was not sure of how they would sound. In addition, I wanted to see how I did with constructing the center channel speaker box before committing to the entire project. If this works out, I'll be ordering the left/right front and rear channel kits soon.


At this point, the parts for the box are nearly done and ready for assembly. I will probably assemble everything and give it a listen before I glue on the last side and finish the cabinet with veneer. That way, I can be sure the crossovers are working correctly.


I looked at a lot of DIY designs before deciding on the Audax HT. I liked that they took into consideration the off axis response of the center channel. In my case, that is critical as only one of my theater seats is on-axis.


For the past few days I have been making lots of sawdust out of MDF. So far, he cabinet weighs about 35 lbs... empty... I figure it will be close to 45 lbs once the crossovers and drivers are mounted.


Got to go make more sawdust....

Joe L.


Edited to add link to description of errors in Audax plans.

Edited to correct link to Audax plans to point to PDF version. (They used to point to the USA Audax web-site, but it now is simply a pointer to the French Audax site and the plans there are not as detailed as the PDF compiled by an AVS member)


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## Ted White

Great Post Joe! Just great!


Sounds like a winning system. You must tell us how it goes. Thanks for taking the time to share this.


Ted


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## Steve Dodds

You could try some of the projects here:

http://www.speakerbuilding.com/ 


Especially the Geers EVE II and the Andromeda.


Also, search in the Audio forum for 'Unity Horns' and you'll get full details of Bob Sorel's excellent system.


And finally check www.htguide.com in the DIY forum for some of the moderators projects.


Steve


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## Carl Brinkman

Ted,


What exactly are you trying to accomplish with DIY speakers.


If you are bored and this is just recreational they can be lots of fun.


If you are trying to save money they are almost never competitive with the most bang for the buck commercial speakers. The Silicon Valley is filled with smart engineers who love to "rool their own". But I have never yet heard a single finished speaker that sounded as good as something else I had heard at the cost of what they spent on components, let alone their time.


Most "speaker kits" are offered by those making their living selling the drivers at high cost relative to the OEM cost that a volume buyer would pay. The reall problem is finding a recipe that has sufficient crossover design expertise. They are not easy or inexpensive to do well and more important than the raw drivers used IMO.


Have you heard the Swans Diva speakers ? I can't imagine any DIY design being able to duplicate their performance if its bang for the buck you are after.


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## rlj5242

Try some of the plans from Adire Audio . They have links to published reviews and amateur reviews by members of this and other audio forums.


-Robert


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## GJones3

Check out an interesting site at

www.northcreekmusic.com 


I haven't built or heard these speakers, but in the course of researching

high quality DIY speakers, these were highly recommended. I finally decided

that I didn't want to tackle the wood working involved in DIY and bought

Swan Diva 6.1s instead.


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## SVonhof

Ted, I came up with my own design about 5 years ago, and then went to Madisound to have the crossovers designed using their LEAP software, the driver specs and my cabinet design. You can see pics and drawings of my speakers on my web site if you choose. My main speakers were published in Speaker Builder magazine, which is now combined with several other publications and is called AudioXpress. I have made a matching MTM design center channel speaker as well as mid/tweeter surrounds.

I am using all of them in my theater as we speak.

I have everything documented on how to make them, as well as some tips on what I would do differently if I was to make them again (construction changes).


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## Ted White

Speaker Builder Magazine..? Really? That's impressive. I'll check out your site!


Thanks


Ted


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## J. L.

I have had less time in the evenings to devote to making sawdust out of MDF, but my center channel speaker is about at the point where I can put the drivers in and see how it sounds. I expected to be done by now, but I am getting closer.


I started with 4 MDF shelves I purchased from Home Depot. They were 12 1/4 inches wide, 49 inches long and 3/4 inches thick. I used the factory edges wherever possible to get square corners for my speaker. Per square foot, it was a few dollars more than buying a full sheet of MDF, but I do not have a table saw to make accurate cuts, so I took advantage of the factory cut on the shelves edges to be square and true. Besides, it was much easier to get them into the back seat of my car.


I used a circular saw to cut within 1/4 inch of the true dimension, then I clamped a straight edge to it and used a flush trim bit (the type with the little ball bearing on the end) in my router to get a clean edge (of the right size)

It is not the same as having a complete workshop full of woodworking tools, table saws, jointers, planers, etc., but the trim bit in the router worked very well for me. I was able to get accurate square edges and 90 degree angles using this technique and construction therefore was pretty easy.


The box was assembled with fine-thread drywall screws first, then disassembled for the final re-assembly with glue. I predrilled all screw holes and countersunk all the screwheads. (before I am done, I'll finish the cabinets with veneer)


The most recent step was to glue on the front and rear second layer of MDF. This gives me a panel thickness of 1 1/2 inches in the front and rear. Once they were glued on, I again used my router with the trim bit to accurately trim them to the size of the inner front and rear panels. (I had cut them oversize and did the final trimming after gluing them in place) A bit of sanding and everything is looking really fine.


You can find the plans here :
Audax Home Theater Speaker Plans 











I'm just about done making sawdust out of MDF for the center channel. I can't wait to hear it in action.


Joe L.

Home Depot shelves - sawdust + Audax drivers and crossovers = DIY Center channel speaker. (basic speaker building math)


Edited to fix link


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## GeorgeHolland

 http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Vision/VisionInfo.htm 


After doing a lot of research with the same goal in mind, I built a pair of Vision Signature speakers, a high end MAPD monitor loudspeaker system featuring the Scan Speak 15S/8530K-01 mid-woofers and Scan-Speak D2905/9900 Revelator tweeter in a classic MTM configuration, and can highly recommend them. I have the center channel plans and lumber but haven't started them yet. Check out the above link for details. These sound absolutely fantastic in the two-channel mode I currently use them in. I also built the North Creek Leviathan Subwoofer.


George


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## J. L.

George,


If your speakers sound half as good as they look, they must be wonderful. Very nice job on the finish. You must be very proud of your work.


In my case, I'm planning on using a satin finish and staining the oak veneer with a black aniline dye. I do not want my center speaker to reflect a lot of light from the screen.


It probably would be best if I just painted the MDF in flat-black, but I just can't bring myself to put that kind of finish on such a nice speaker cabinet.


I took a look at the north creek site. Their kits are more expensive than the ones I am building from madisound. In addition, I felt that the approach of having a separate midrange speaker in the center channel was important as off-axis response was critical in my theater. That made me choose the audax design over the northcreek design.


I've seen frequency response plots of MTM (midwoofer-tweeter-midwoofer) designed speakers when horizontally orientated and off-axis In one case(I'll try to find the link), the critical midrange was over 10 db down, in another, they talked about it being 18 db down at 2000Hz when 30 degrees off axis. (right in the middle of the frequency range for speech) In this example , the builder measured the off-axis response of the MTM style center speaker he had built and supplied a response curve graph . Ouch... most of the midrange is over 10 to 15 db down off axis. His own comment was "Yuck! Look at how bad the off-axis response of a horizontal MTM is! This is why no one in their right mind would use this design for a center

channel."


Talk about making it hard to follow the dialog in a movie if you are not seated directly on axis. One of the major reasons I choose the design I did as I only have one seat in my theater that is "on-axis". The audax web-site stated that the frequency response for their design was flat within a few db even when off axis.


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## brothermaynard

So J.L., how is that speaker coming?


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## J. L.

This weekend I had everything in my DIY center channel assembled. The crossovers are wired and I temporally attached the top with screws. (The inner enclosure is supposed to be sealed, but since the top fits so well, I figured the sound would not be affected too much.) This was my chance to make sure that I had everything wired correctly.


I left it playing music overnight at a reasonable listening level to allow the speakers to break in. They did seem to improve after that and get even more detailed.


In a word, the speaker sounds great. I spent the weekend trying different types of program material. (I watched Moulin Rouge, Blade 2, and Hart's War) One thing I was looking for was how well I was able to understand dialog in the presence of other background sounds. It was very easy to hear the difference (from the computer speakers I was using) when watching a movie.



Last night, I disassembled the speakers (removed the drivers) so that I could apply the veneer finish. This should happen over the next few days.


The speaker is very heavy and not very easy to carry around once assembled. I can already see that I want to position it so that its top is in line with my line of vision (angled so that its speakers are pointed toward my ears) I will be making an angled stand for it from scraps of MDF I have left over from its construction.


Although you might think I was doing this for best sound, that would only be part of the story. The primary reason is to minimize the light reflected from the top of the speaker. It was distracting till I propped up the front of the speaker so that I could not see the speaker's top panel. I expect this will be lessened when I apply a matte black finish to the speaker.


I will be ordering the parts for the other channels this week from madisound.com. With any luck, I will be making more sawdust this weekend. I'll post another picture once I have the veneer applied.


Joe L.


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## J. L.

At this point, I have finished the veneering and about ready to stain and finish the center channel.


The construction has taken a lot longer than I initially thought, however, I only have had the chance to work on the speaker for an hour or two each week.


I can not be more pleased with the appearance so far. I used yellow carpenter's glue on the cabinet and veneer, let them both dry, and then ironed on the veneer allowing the heat to melt the glue to bond the veneer to the MDF. It worked great. The veneer is paper-backed red-oak purchased from Woodworker's supply in Burlington, NC.


The hardest task was trimming the veneer. That took far longer than expected. I did most of it by hand using a razor knife after getting it rough trimmed using a flush trimming bit in my router. The oak is really tough even when paper thin.


Here is a picture... I'm almost there... (I have not yet built a stand for it, so it is propped up on a couple of blocks of MDF temporally)











PS.

The box of drivers and crossovers for the L/R Front and Rear speakers has arrived from madisound.com. I'll be covered in sawdust... again....


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## Jeff Smith

Try klone-audio.com


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## brothermaynard

J.L. that speaker is the best! I am glad you have posted those pics, every time I see them it brings me closer to building my own. Two questions: Do you have spectrum analysis graphs of the ported design I have only seen them for the sealed variety? And what would it be beneficial to use the ported design for all (3) front speakers?


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## J. L.

brothermaynard


I do not have any frequency response graphs. However, according to the Audax web-site, the Joe D'Appolito designed center channel performs as follows:


> Quote:
> On-axis frequency response is within +1.6dB from 100Hz to 20kHz. The low frequency -3dB point is 55Hz and sensitivity is 87.5dB/2.83v/1m. At typical viewing angles within +15 degrees off the on-axis position, response changes less than 1dB over the full frequency range.



Since Joe D'Appolito is a highly respected speaker designer, I expect that there is more truth than marketing in the Audix web-site description of the frequency response.


The left and right front speakers are also ported in the rear of the enclosure. The only difference is that they use a single 3 inch diameter port instead of two smaller ports in the center channel.


From what I have read, the efficiency is higher in a ported design. Other than that, I cannot comment. I'm following the Audix plans because I am not a loudspeaker designer.


I'll be starting the L/R front speaker construction after I get the center finished. ( I already have all the materials...but my wife suggested I get the center finished first before I start making more sawdust. Since sawdust and finish work with varnish don't mix too well, I agreed with her advice.) Left / Right Plans are at this link 


I'll be sure to take more pictures..


Joe L.


Edited to fix link...


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## J. L.

I have applied two coats of black Aniline dye to veneer.


Wow... I almost want to stop now... The finish is almost flat black, yet the grain of the oak shows through. Exactly like I want for under my screen. (to minimize reflections off of the top surface of the speaker)


I'm off to the hardware store to purchase a sealer and finish for it. Since the dye was water based, I'll look for an alcohol based sealer.


The dye is perfect. I purchased it from Woodworker's supply in powder form. I mixed (dissolved) one ounce of it in a quart of hot water. Based on the amount I used to coat the center channel, that quart is way more than I'll ever need to finish all the speakers. I barely used any in the two coats I applied so far.


Since the speaker finish is so flat, I used a slave bounce flash along with the flash on the camera to take this picture. Without the extra flash, it was hard to see any detail at all. (of course, that is *exactly* the finish I am working toward.. I want the speaker to disappear when the lights are dimmed and a movie is playing)


Joe L.


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## blitzkreig

J. L. ,... I am following your progress with great interest (thanks for the pictures) as my father-in-law is making me wood box part of the Audax Center Channel as my Christmas Present (he has way more wood-working talent than I will ever have).

Couple quick questions. Do you plan on using Speaker Grills?... If so, which ones. We have a new puppy so I will be adding the grills but there are so many to choose from. And the second questions does the Audax kit come complete with the egg crate foam and other stuffing or did you buy that seperately on your own?.. I can't seem to find on the Audax info a specific yes or no to that question.


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## J. L.

blitzkreig,


I do not plan on adding any grills even though there are two dogs and a cat that allow my wife and I to share their house. Fortunately, they are well behaved and have not destroyed any furniture. (lately)


The center channel will sit atop the stage, below the screen and out of harms way from the animals. (They are not interested in climbing on the stage)


Actually, the cat attempted to walk on the stage during its initial construction. At that point I had draped fabric across its frame to see what it would look like. The cat stepped onto it, the fabric gave way as there was nothing supporting it, and the cat jumped back to safety thinking it was falling. (the stage platform is about six inches high so the cat was not in any real danger... but the cat did not know it) It has kept off of the stage since. (who says cats are dumb.)


The madisound kit of parts did not include eggcrate foam. Instead, it included flat acoustic foam about 1/2 inch thick. Since the original plans called for the thicker foam, and since I had a piece of the blue foam you see in the pictures, I used it instead. I expect that two layers of the foam they supplied would have worked just as well. (they supplied more than enough) From what I have read, the eggcrate foam is available at your local Walmart as an inexpensive mattress pad.


The kit also included polyester batting for the center compartment. I'll add that just before mounting the speakers.


I only have two complaints with the madisound kit of parts.

-- They did not supply enough wire to allow me to mount the crossovers where I would have preferred. I needed a few more feet to mount one crossover in the bottom of each compartment.

-- The person who assembled the crossovers glued the parts to the circuit boards with their values facing the board. I would have preferred the values to be visible.


It sounds like your father-in-law will make you a very nice Christmas present. I hope to finish my set of speakers by then myself. It has taken me two months to get this far, but this is the first time I have ever done anything like this. I expect the other speakers will go faster as I have the experience of building the center channel to draw upon and they are way less complicated.


Joe L.


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## blitzkreig

Thanks... and I must compliment you on that black dye job, it looks very nice.


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## pen25

there is more to just slapping some wood together and cutting holes and dropping tubes in. do some research dont just look for general plans.. these plans are for specific drivers.. do a searcg on google for speaker building and go buy a book at radioshack about building speaker boxs..


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## J. L.

pen25,


I could not agree with you more. The drivers, crossover, and enclosure must be designed together. If not done correctly, the resulting frequency response is unpredictable and nowhere near optimal.


One of the reasons I went with the Audax center channel design was because I did exactly what you suggested. I did my research, found a highly respected design where the plans and drivers were both available, and where the biggest complaint I could find was that the speaker enclosure was huge and not something you could perch atop the average TV. Oh yes, it was also affordable.


Are there better designs... probably... but the Audax center channel has been compared to some pretty expensive designs and held its own. If anything, it is one that others were compared to in their evaluations.


In any case, I installed the drivers last night and settled in to watch a few movies. The dialog is distinct and the speaker performs exactly as expected. It sounds great even when seated off center. My biggest complaint is that the satin finish (3 coats of Minwax Polycrylic) is still more glossy that I would prefer.


Here it is, sitting on my stage. (now it doesn't look that big when you sit it under a 106 inch screen.)










It's time to make more sawdust... Front Left/Right are next.


Joe L.


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## blitzkreig

WOW... she is beautiful!!! Thanks for the step by step progress report.


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## pen25

thats cool.. i like it.. and also love the whole 100" plus screen.. got to love proj. its good that you used a system that already has the speakers and box designed around it.. most people make the mistake though thinking all you have to do is cut a couple peices of wood and slap it together.. that is pretty much fine with a sub but when it comes to full range that is the hard part.. also imaging.. one reason i wold def buy matched speakers outside of the sub which ill build. but who knows maybe ill get a wild hair and try my hand at building some loudspeakers.. ;-)


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## Alain

Very nice job, J.L.


The gloss is fine, from what I can make out of the picture. It's elegant.


'Shame we can't hear it!


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## darthopus

J.L.


Excellent work on the Audax Center. I went the opposite route and built the L/R speakers first. I now notice how inferior my Sony center is compared to what I built. I am going to be building the center channel after Xmas along with a Sono Shiva.


After seeing your center I am going to rebuild the cabinets for my mains as they were my first attempt at woodworking and they are really ugly.


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## darthopus

J.L.


Excellent work on the Audax Center. I went the opposite route and built the L/R speakers first. I now notice how inferior my Sony center is compared to what I built. I am going to be building the center channel after Xmas along with a Sono Shiva.


After seeing your center I am going to rebuild the cabinets for my mains as they were my first attempt at woodworking and they are really ugly.


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## J. L.

darthopus,


I'm sorry you have been influenced by my center speaker's appearance to want to re-build your Left/Right speakers. I'm sure they sound wonderful. I have no doubt that they outperform your existing center channel.


Can you share your experiences with the L/R construction? Is there anything I should look out for?


What do you plan to do differently when you re-build?


The Audax center was my first attempt at veneering and finish cabinetry type woodworking. I expect that the others I build will look better than my center speaker, but... I do not plan on re-building it.


My secret was to veneer the back of the cabinet first (to make the mistakes where they would show the least) then to do the sides, and finally the front, top, and bottom (most visible). By the time I got to the front, I was getting much better at trimming the veneer.


Joe L.


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## darthopus

One thing you should look out for is that the crossover diagram is incorrect on the Audax site. eI believe it's the low pass crossover. Wayne J from Speakerbuiler.net had a corrected version on his site. I built the crossover according to his diagram and they sound wonderful. I can send you the diagram, but it's not in my laptop. I have to get my desktop hooked up again. (I will be glad when escrow closes and my new house is done!)


If I do end up rebuilding them, I am going to use a makeshift guide for making straight cuts. My wife likes to watch "Trading Spaces" and the carpenter used a 3' level clamped to the board as a straight edge. The only thing really wrong with my speakers is that the cuts aren't reall straight. everything is air tight though.


email me if you want that diagram. I believe speakerbuilder.net is down for a while.


later,


Don
[email protected]


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## Steve Dodds

I can heartily recommend at least one DIY route - the Phoenix/Orions designed by Seigfried Linkwitz of crossover and Audio Artistry fame. I have just built some test baffles for a modified version of his speakers and so far they appear to sound better than my Wilson WATTs. Construction is also a piece of cake as there are no boxes.


The site is here:

www.linkwitzlab.com 


It's early days yet so I'll see how extended listening goes, but they are very nice so far.


Steve


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## J. L.

darthopus,


Thanks for the heads-up about the misleading crossover drawing on the Audax web-site for their L/R Home Theater speakers. With as many people that have commented, I wonder why it has not been corrected. (anybody ever tell them it is wrong?)


Actually, the schematic of the crossover on the Audax site is correct, but their pictorial drawing of the low pass filter for the L/R speakers has an extra wire shorting part of the crossover. It is incorrect.


In any case, madisound.com assembles the crossovers and supplies them already assembled when you purchase their kit of parts for the Audax speakers. Therefore, I did not have to worry. (I did check, they assembled the crossover correctly)


Joe L.


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## jmhays

Another place to check for DIY speakers is at the Asylum:

http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html 


It is a great place for information on everything about audio.


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## darthopus

J.L.,


Wayne J from speakerbuilder.net has informed Audax several times about the incorrect schematic and they apparently aren't too concerned about it.


It's fortunate that I heard about the Audax speakers from Wayne J's site and saw his corrected diagram. Otherwise I would probably have been been soured on the whole DIY experience and been forced to buy lesser quality speakers. Being broke sucks!!!


It's good that the crossovers from Madisound are done for you as it took me about several hours of learing how to assemble and read a crossover diagram. Thanks Wayne J! I hope his site goes live again real soon as it was a wonderful resource for the DIY'er.


Enjoy your new speakers. I am in the process of going through escrow and will have to remove my surrounds and the wire for my subwoofer from under the house. LOTR EE and Ep. 2 are my last HT experiences until my new house is finished in February. I know my parents( whom I will be living with for two months) will not allow the subwoofer and surrounds to ruin their decor. Can you believe that? At least they are tolerating the 65" Mits!


The upside is that it will give me time to rebuild the mains, build the center channel, and build the sonosub without rushing the job because I'm impatient and just want to hear them.


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## ElvisIncognito

I used to be the sole proprietor of Masterpiece Speakerworks, a small loudspeaker company in the SF Bay Area. After a couple of years, I closed up shop, though, because nothing I could engineer could ever sound as sweet (to my ears) as a good planar-magnetic (e.g. Magneplanars, which I currently own) or full-range ribbon (e.g. Apogee) (And, yes, Virginaia, though it pains me to say it, even the Carver "Amazing Loudspeaker" kicks the @ss of any cone-based or electrostatic speaker - at least to my ears.)


That said, the only dynamic/cone-based speakers that I could never out-engineer were those designed by Mike Dzurko at Audio Concepts. Dzurko's brilliance at subwoofer design outshines anyone - with all due apologies to Velodyne owners. (WHEW! Opening myself up for LOTS of flames on THIS post! *LOL*)


Now, when you say, "Very High Quality", you could mean a lot of different things, because "quality" is, itself, highly subjective. Perhaps you want to build speakers that sound "as good as Bose"... but for the sake of this post, I'll use my own standard of "Very High Quality".










You also make no mention of price/cost - you may be looking toward kits because of budget constraints, but then again you may also just want the pleasure of crafting your own speakers. I'll make no assumptions there.


Mike Dzurko's Jaguars are truly exceptional. Unfortunately, I believe Audio Concepts may have stopped offering them in kit form (though you may be able to work something out with Mike.) Beyond that, numerous good-to-very good kits are available from Solen Electronique, Madisound. (I've had dealings with both and have always found the folks at Madisound to be tremendously pleasant and helpful.)


Though I'm not a big fan of Audax drivers (Eton, ScanSpeak, Focal, and Dynaudio - in that order - would be my choices), J. L. does have the right idea - D'Appolito's MTM design, (which has its own compromises from a pure audio standpoint) is an excellent choice for HT due to its off-axis response. I'm not sure how well it lends itself to a bi-pole design for rear channels, though. If anyone out there is currently using an MTM bi-pole for the rears, please post your comments. I'm genuinely interested.


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## SVonhof

From what I understand, Dynaudio do not offer their driver for the DIY market anymore, since they are now making their own speakers in mass quantities. I may talk to the Dynaudio reps at CES about it though.


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## westrock




> Quote:
> I used to be the sole proprietor of Masterpiece Speakerworks, a small loudspeaker company in the SF Bay Area. After a couple of years, I closed up shop, though, because nothing I could engineer could ever sound as sweet (to my ears) as a good planar-magnetic (e.g. Magneplanars, which I currently own) or full-range ribbon (e.g. Apogee) (And, yes, Virginaia, though it pains me to say it, even the Carver "Amazing Loudspeaker" kicks the @ss of any cone-based or electrostatic speaker - at least to my ears.)



I completely agree with you. I am currently getting into building speakers and yet I don't think I will come anywhere close to matching my quite little $500 Magnepan MMG's. Those things are amazing and considering the price and the fact that there commercially made, I feel like I ripped off Magnepan. I have a pair of $250 B&W DM302's and the difference in quality of parts used and quality of sound of the maggies is far more than double. At the same time it makes me think that building speakers would be a waste if there never better than what I have to begin with, yet at the same time I don't want to surpass my maggies cause there so dear to my heart.


And to think it was just fate that I was walking through Incredible Universe like 6 years ago and saw the Amazings they had on display and saw the $2000 price tag and said ouch, then the rep guy told me to about a company that sold these weird speakers called magne-something-or-other.











Oh and that guy on the first page that said DIY stuff will never equal mass market stuff, I guarantee I could make something better than the DM302's with $250, even if I had to build a couple boxes. The 50 cent caps and iron core inductors alone make quite a difference.


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## westrock

Also did you see that partsexpress is now selling the Amazing's ribbon assembly, but at ~$400 each, you may end up spending as much making them as they cost new. Although the box on that thing was pretty simple. Hmmmmm....maybe someday........


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## J. L.

I cannot comment on this threads originator's motives in looking for DIY plans of "very high quality" loudspeakers, I can describe mine.


I am not an audio engineer, or a professional woodworker, but tackled the project for three reasons..


1. I did a lot of reading and learned that the Audax design was considered pretty decent. (Joe D'Appolito designed the set of Home-Theater speakers) Since I was following a set of plans, I did not have to design the crossover, etc. Instead, I could concentrate on the physical construction.


2. I enjoy building things... electronics and computers mostly, but have done some projects where I used a saw, hammer, sandpaper, and varnish.


3. I learned I could save quite a bit of money by building the speakers myself and the result would be superior to anything I could purchase for the same amount as I would spend on materials. I expect to spend around $1000. Did I have a specific budget in mind? No... I wanted good sound. I was looking at speakers in the $2500 dollar range at a local home theater store before deciding on the DIY approach and their price tag did not cause my wife or I to get "sticker shock"


Since this was my first speaker project, I am not in a position to counter the anyone's claim that my project would sound worse than most commercially purchased (and professionally engineered) speakers. I personally doubt it.


If I had done a DIY design for the speaker, and if I did not have the resources of the web to support a first time design effort, then I would agree it is likely that my design would be lacking. My odds of picking good drivers, designing a good crossover, and getting the desired result would be slim. That is why I followed plans published by a respected loudspeaker designer.


I know my enclosure is solidly built and braced. I know I am not listening to a hollow box. I can tell you that the Audax Center Channel sounds pretty darn good, better than most I've seen at Circuit-City, Best-Buy, or Now-Audio. Voices are very clear and distinct. Equally important, they sound good anywhere in the room.


Is a "planar" style of speaker a good candidate as a "center channel?" Probably not. Too directional. True, they would sound absolutely wonderful if you were in the "sweet spot" and would blow away almost anything that did not have their transient and phase response... but are they a good candidate for a "center" channel... not in my situation where I have most of my seating off center. Would they work in my room as L/R speakers? No. Not enough room to space them alongside of the screen AND away from the walls.


Will most people who tackle a DIY set of Home Theater speakers have exactly the same reasons to undertake their project I did? I can't say. Will they share some of the reasons? Probably.


At this point, I have made quite a bit more sawdust. The L/R speakers are ready for glue. The panels are cut and holes for the drivers routed, and veneer ordered. I'll post pictures soon.


J. L.


----------



## Griff

J.L.,


I decided on the Audax system for almost the same reasons you mentioned. I know I'm not experienced enough to design a crossover from scratch. I found this set on speakerbuilder.net. Wayne J had an awesome site dedicated to the DIY'er. I do have one question for you though. Are you building the suurounds as called out in the plans. I have decided to use the fronts as rears also. My reasoning is this: 1. Eventually (soon I hope), I want to get into SACD. 2. I want the fuller sound that I believe the larger fronts will give me. 3. Because I can!! I have the room, so why not? I have just moved, and haven't had time to get my garage together all the way yet. However, seeing your pics has inspired me to get moving! Thank You!! I will post pics as soon as I get my web page working again.


Griff


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## ElvisIncognito

J. L. - I REALLY hope I didn't belittle your undertaking or accomplishments in any way; that was certainly not my intent. I say, "Bravo!" to you for undertaking this, and "Good call!" as well.


> Quote:
> _Originally posted by J. L._
> *I did a lot of reading and learned that the Audax design was considered pretty decent. (Joe D'Appolito designed the set of Home-Theater speakers)*



D'Appolito's design is beyond decent - it is superior to most of what's commercially available - especially in the price range we're talking about here. I'm absolutely certain your end result will give you much, much pleasure.







(But all things are relative, and once you've "tasted" Maggies, there's just no going back...)


> Quote:
> *I learned I could save quite a bit of money by building the speakers myself and the result would be superior to anything I could purchase for the same amount as I would spend on materials.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Since this was my first speaker project, I am not in a position to counter the anyone's claim that my project would sound worse than most commercially purchased (and professionally engineered) speakers. I personally doubt it.*



I not only doubt it, I am certain of it. The mark-up on speakers is *obscene*! Anyone who has ever sold speakers at Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. can attest to the fact that the profit margin is 50% or higher. Then there's the fact that the retailer does not buy them from the manufacturer, but rather from a distributor (and there can be more than one level of middleman, too, each of whom marks up the price and takes a profit. The manufacturers, themselves, are making a good profit to begin with, and they have to pay for manufacturing equipment, labor, and design costs. So, with volume discounts on components, you can safely assume that those $1000 speakers at C-City represent 

Even without having heard your speakers, I'd put your DIY D'Appolitos head-to-head against ANY commercially available speakers selling for *twice the price*!


> Quote:
> *I can tell you that the Audax Center Channel sounds pretty darn good, better than most I've seen at Circuit-City, Best-Buy, or Now-Audio. Voices are very clear and distinct.*



I can't imagine C-City selling anything that would surpass your DIY's unless it cost 4X as much, or more.


> Quote:
> *Is a "planar" style of speaker a good candidate as a "center channel?" Probably not. Too directional.*



That's exactly why the Maggie center channel speaker is curved. Is it a good choice? Absolutely. I don't want to hijack this post into an evangelism of Magneplanars, so I'll just post this link to a very thoughtful, interesting and well written review of Magnepan's home theater system and I'll leave it at that.


> Quote:
> *Would they work in my room as L/R speakers? No. Not enough room to space them alongside of the screen AND away from the walls.*



Well said, and that is precisely why Maggie's aren't for everybody. (But they _are_ the *only* speaker for me.







)


As to the merits of DIY speakers, if you're not going Maggie, it is (IMO) the *only* way to go...


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## ElvisIncognito




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by westrock_
> *Also did you see that partsexpress is now selling the Amazing's ribbon assembly, but at ~$400 each, you may end up spending as much making them as they cost new. Although the box on that thing was pretty simple. Hmmmmm....maybe someday........*



No [fecal matter]?!?!? Can you post a link, please? I'm thinking a DIY center channel for my Maggies may be in my future!!! This is very exciting news - thanks!


DIY'ers take note - this merits serious consideration! Coupled with a very fast bass/mid-driver, (probably in an aperiodic or even an infinite baffle enlosure - I've had excellent luck in the past with fast midranges in backless, lightly stuffed sonotube enclosures) and reinforced by a good DIY sub (which is exceedingly easy to do - and do WELL), these ribbons, crossed over fairly low, would make a solid cornerstone of an incredible, virtually unbeateable no-holds-barred DIY 5, 6 or 7 channel system!


This _really_ has me thinking... For years now, I've considered attempting a DIY planar-magnetic mid/bass driver... maybe the time has come. Geez, talk about "Very High Quality DIY speakers"... !!!


----------



## Cabinboy

 www.e-speakers.com


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## ElvisIncognito

The ones I remember had about a 48" full-range ribbon... nothing like that at e-speakers.com. Went to partsexpress.com and searched for "ribbon" there, too - only found the Ravens - not what was in the C.A.L.'s


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## J. L.

ElvisIncognito,


I took no offense. In fact, I was pleased to see that Magnepan has an offering in their product line targeted toward the HT market. Unfortunately, they still would not work in my theater.... as I said, not enough room along side of the screen.


Now... If I ever decide to change out the L/R with full range ribbons, that might work. They are narrow enough to fit alongside the screen.


On the other hand, once I get the Audax HT speakers completed, I just might finish a pair of electrostatic speakers I started back in (embarrassed to say) 1977.


At that time I was a subscriber to "the Audio Amateur" and built stators for a pair of full range speakers that has been described in that magazine. The project got put on hold when I moved from an apartment to a house and I still have them in my closet, ready to be assembled.


These would then replace the pair of "Ohm Model F" speakers sitting unused in my living room whose foam surrounds have rotted. (I have not listened to them in years because of the foam rot) The DIY "High Quality Speakers" mode existed for me even back then, just not for HT use.


J. L.


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## WTS

Hi ; The "Audio Amateur" excellent mag, been reading it since the late 70's


Elvis, I just checked Partsexpress's web and they must have stopped selling the big ribbons by B&G. They where there about 2 weeks ago when I checked, I was getting prices on them. I guess one could always call B&G and find out who is repping them. Thats how I found out that partexpress stocked them in the first place. Mind you that was about 6 months ago. The company name is bgcorp.com


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## LOUDSYSTEM

i built a set of speakers using all Focal drivers their tc120td5 tweeter, 7k6411 and 11k7512 and then used LEAP LMS and a few good sets of ears to come up with the crossovers


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## westrock

Heres one of the B&G ribbons, this a 40 inch model, but in there (partsexpress) newest catalog in the B&G section there is a ribbon that specifically says its a replcement for the Amazings.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=264-706


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## ElvisIncognito

Thanks, westrock - I just ordered the print catalog.


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## J. L.

Griff,


I have not yet started the rear surround speakers, but I have the drivers and crossovers already. I do plan on building them as soon as I finish the Left/Right Front speakers. I'm about half way through building them.


I started the L/R fronts by sitting down with the plans and re-engineering the dimensions slightly. I planned to double up on the front and rear panels and therefore wanted to adjust the depth and height to keep the speakers from extending too far past the screen.


I kept the internal volume of the enclosure the same as originally designed.

This resulted in a bit more than 4 inches of height added to the cabinet and them being 2 inches less deep (internally). The extra 1 1/2 inches added by the thicker front and rear panels result in the speakers having almost the same external depth as in the original design. Along side my 106 inch screen I had plenty of available height so the modified dimensions look well visually.


I made myself a plan showing how I would cut the required pieces from the 2x4 foot MDF panels I had purchased. It also showed how they would assemble.










Next step was to transfer those dimensions to the MDF. I used masking tape to mark the various pieces so I would know how the would assemble later.










I then cut and assembled the pieces with a few fine-threaded drywall screws. I used a homemade circle cutting jig to make the holes for the drivers with my router. To cut the panels, I first made a course cut with my circular saw and a straight-edge clamped to the MDF. This was within 1/4 inch of the final dimension. Then I clamped a piece of MDF to the true dimension required and used a flush trimming bit in my router to make the panel exactly the dimension I needed.










Here the speaker cabinets are fully assembled. Next step is to take them apart and re-assemble with glue and screws. (If I had enough clamps, I could skip the screws, but they allowed me to use the clamps as I needed during the assembly and then remove them once the additional screws were added.) I used a countersink and predrilled all the holes to keep the MDF from splitting.










Next will be to add the ports, the acoustic foam, the crossovers, and give them a test before I apply the veneer. Keep tuned for more pictures as I proceed.


J. L.

-------------

Raw MDF - Sawdust = L/R Front Speaker Enclosures.


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## Jeff Hovis

JL,

Most excellent thread on the Audax diy speakers. I was just looking at their site last night and put them on my short list along with Adire and GR Research. I'm also pretty handy but have never really built anything electronic from scratch. I like pre-assembled XOs.


I have recently listened to diy speakers from GR Rsch and Adire. IMHO, I don't think you can buy a comparable speaker for the $ that goes into building these. I think you'd have to spend ~$500+ more to equal them. I listened to a 15" sub that a guy built for his father for ~$400, and I know you'd have to spend $1500 or more to equal it. OTOH, I have a set of Energy Take 5 speakers with the Energy sub for which I paid


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## rosconey

i finished a pair of rick craig designed 3.5 way speakers recently(turkeyday)

diy is the way to go-scanspeak tweeter,morel mid domeand 2 6.5 woofers per side in a small sealed cabinet.these blow away any thing comercialy available for 640$-stage, detail,depth.

i also talked to rick a couple weeks ago about doing a line array with the bg ribbon,he likes the idea.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/rosconey/...c=ph%26.view=t 


pic of my speakers


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## Jeff Hovis

check out these
http://www.gr-research.com/AlphaLS/Alpha.htm 


I know a guy who built a set of these for a customer.


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## J. L.

Jeff,


Thanks for both the link and for the comments on DIY alternatives.


Clearly, there are quite a few high quality DIY speaker possibilities. Designs exist in various forms and price ranges, some are easier to assemble than others, some far more difficult. The web allows us to be aware of and choose from many different designs. The line arrays are much more complicated (and expensive) than the Audax HT speakers I am constructing. I am certain they sound wonderful. (their ribbon drivers are very highly regarded)


It is a bit more difficult to compare price/performance between the various designs. Most of us will only ever hear one of the DIY designs, and even then, it will be after they are constructed and in place in our homes.


We are all at the mercy of others who have constructed the same DIY speakers. They at least can compare the DIY design to commercial offerings in the same price range. Again, the web allows us to read their reviews of their DIY design's performance.


We can pour over spec sheets and driver parameters. In the end, DIY comes down to picking a sound design (pun intended) at a cost we can live with, using materials we can obtain, put together with tools we have available.


J. L.


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## Jeff Hovis

OK, I'm ordering the center and fronts. I'll keep my 4 Energy speakers for the rear and L/R surrounds. I'm also going to build a 15" (Tempest) sub.

JL, keep us posted. BTW, I'll be in NC in two weeks (RTP).

Jeff


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## Brian Bunge

Jeff,


As long as you get the right receiver (or separate amp) a speaker rated for a 4 ohm load shouldn't be a problem.


And the sub that we built for my dad uses a Dayton DVC 15" driver, not a Tempest. But the DVC 15 is virtually a Tempest clone.


Brian


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## Jeff Hovis

Brian,

I would love to have the receiver that you sell, but I don't want to spend that much. So, it's the DVC. I'm ready to get the saws going...I want to build something.


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## rosconey

my new diy speakers (rick craig 3.5) run a 4 ohm load, the amp seams to make a major differance.

my yamaha rxv1 can handle 4ohms no problem ,but the top end was hot-switched to a old carver pm350 amp and it made a nice differance=very smooth.

i am so happy i went the diy route.

take a look at ricks sight its got some neat stuff


www.selahaudio.com


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## Jeff Hovis

I looked at the Audax design and I believe they are 6ohm speakers. I checked out the Denon site. I looked at the 1803 and higher models and I noticed that they were rated down to 6 ohms. I also think that the Yamaha RXV1300 can do 6ohms. I've heard some really nice GR-Rsch speakers at Rutledge Audio Design www.rutledgeaudiodesign.com but the GR site says they are 4ohms. If you want to build speakers but not the cabinet, check out theirs.


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## jheoaustin

I'd like everybody interested in DIY to try these pages:

www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk 

www.zazac.com 


Probably the DIY speakers using most expensive drivers such as ATC 3" midrange dome. I wanted to have one of high-end wilmslow for a few years, still hoping... Second site is in Korean, but you can see some pictures of speakers made there.


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## Brian Bunge

Jeff,


Thanks for the plug. I just finished watching "We were Soldiers" and my Sherwood Newcastle receiver had no problem with the 4 ohm load of the A/V-1+'s and Adire's LCC center channel. You might be able to find an older model used or on clearance in your price range. They're definitely among the best receivers I've heard if music has any importance at all. If you're talking strictly HT then the others you mentioned would work well.


Just beware of any receiver with a 4 ohm switch on it. It's just a band aid which limits the current output of the receiver when driving a 4-6 ohm load and thus protects from driving the receiver into thermal overload.


Brian


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## Jeff Hovis

Brian,

The new receiver will be for HT only. The official word from GR and Adire is 4ohms. Audax says fronts and centers are 3 ohms across the entire range and the rears are 6 ohms. I plan to use my Energy speakers in the rear. Afterall, I have 2 fronts, 3 rear, a center and a sub. I'm pretty sure that they're 8 ohms. Now, if I only knew where to get a good deal on a Sherwood Newcastle ;-)


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## Brian Bunge

Yeah, I wonder where you could get a good deal on one of those?










Brian


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## Jeff Hovis

JL,

What did you use to cut your holes for the individual speakers? I bought a router jig from Parts Express but now that I have it, I don't think it will work on all routers. There is a list of models that it will fit. I haven't bought a router yet and I hope I don't have to spend a fortune on one to fit my $30 jig.


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## Brian Bunge

Jeff,


I mentioned this in my email but I post here for others' benefit. I use the DeWalt DW621 router. The built-in dust collection is a must for cutting MDF. They're normally $199 at HD or Lowe's but they're on clearance now so you might be able to save a few bucks. It's well worth even the full $199 price.


Brian


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## J. L.

Jeff,


I made my own equivalent to your "jasper" jig from a scrap of Masonite I had left over from the poster frame I built. It probably looks exactly like your $30. version except it only has three pivot holes. Those were three diameters I needed for the woofer, and midrange in the center channel.


For the tweeter, terminal cup, and port holes, I used a "fly-cutter" style of hole cutter in my drill press. It can cut a small hole easily. It is not at all suitable for use in a hand-held drill. In fact, it says to use it only in a slow speed drill press.


If I did not have a drill press I would have made a large circular template to rest the base of the router against its inside edge and then it would have no problem with a small diameter hole.


J. L.


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## Jasmo

I just stumbled onto this thread and must say it is really interesting. I have thought about building a set of speakers myself (mostly for music) for some time now but just haven't ever been able to decide on a kit. I'm a little surprised nobody commenting in this thread has mentioned Zalytron yet. They have quite a few speaker kits. You just have to check out some of the line array designs... WOW!!! Has anyone ever tackled one of their kits? If so, are they pretty good, decent, excellent or crap? That is all for now, keep up the good posts!


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## Jeff Hovis

Hey JL, what type of receiver or amp are you using? I have to upgrade my receiver and I'm finding that most diy speakers fall into the 4 and 6 ohm category.


----------



## SVonhof

Jasmo, I do remember that a while back, several years probably, Speaker Builder Magazine did a review on a kit for the A652 (I think that was it) Audax design. They used the Zalytron kit, so it came with all the parts required as well as the Zalytron built cabinets. I think there was a problem with the tweeter wiring being out of phase, but that was easilly corrected.

From what I remember, they lived the Zalytron cabinets, very well built.

If you want to try and find the article, Speaker Builder is now combined with two other magazines and is called AudioXpress.


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## J. L.

Jeff,


Currently, I am using a set of amplifier "circuit boards" I picked up at an electronics flea market. They were what I was using on my old pro-logic surround system. They run about 7 watts RMS output each.


These will be replaced with more substantial amplifiers as I proceed. You would be amazed at how loud it can get even at that power level.


Personally, I would not worry about the receiver output rating at 4 ohms vs 6 ohms vs 8 ohms because speakers are anything but a constant impedance.


There are two possible problems with an amplifier driving low impedance speakers:


1. If you plug 4 ohm speakers into an amplifier rated for 8 ohm loads, it is possible that its power-supply will not be able to supply enough current on very loud passages when listening at high volume levels. This will make the sound distort or sound muddy. If it is a multi-channel amplifier, it may run into this problem if all channels are driven to max output at the same time even when connected to speakers at the suggested impedance. (unlikely with music) This class of problem is more likely to occur on inexpensive receivers that have marginally designed power supplies with small (lightweight) transformers and small filter capacitors. In fact, some are guaranteed for their rated power level with only two channels driven simultaneously.


2. If you plug 4 ohm speakers into an amplifier rated for 8 ohm loads, it is possible that it will overheat if driven for long periods of time at maximum volume if its heat-sinks are too small. (This actually is more likely to occur when the amplifier power supply is able to supply sufficient current on loud passages.) This overheating could cause damage to the output transistors if they did not have circuitry to protect them from high temperatures.


If you keep away from the most inexpensive amplifiers, the odds are you can use any of the DIY speakers with just about any amplifier rated over 5 watts a channel and enjoy fairly loud sound in your theater no matter what load impedance your speakers present.


Now...to keep things interesting... I have a pair of monaural amplifiers I built in the early 70s that were (conservatively) rated at 250 watts into 8 ohms. I personally measured somewhere near 600 watts into a 4 ohm dummy load driven with a 1000 Hz sine wave for durations of a few minutes. (without them clipping or distorting) They weigh about 30 pounds each, most of the weight being the power transformer and heat-sinks. They play for about 30 seconds after the power is turned off. (They have very large filter caps in their power supplies)


I used to use these to drive a pair of Ohm Acoustics Model "F" speakers. They were rated at about 3 ohms. On a very hot summer day in a un-airconditioned second floor apartment, one of them did power itself off when the heat-sink temperature rose to where the thermal cut-off opened. This was after driving them at high volume (then the landlord downstairs was out for the afternoon) It did cause me a bit of concern, but once I realized what had happened, I simply turned the volume down a bit. They did not suffer from either of the flaws I described above.


I'll eventually use these to drive a DIY subwoofer (a future project) and a buttkicker.


Lastly, according to the Audax web-page that describes the DIY speakers I am building:


> Quote:
> The left and right channel speakers are 2-way vented systems with a 4th order acoustic in-phase crossover at 2650Hz. Sensitivity is rated at 88dB/2.83v/1m. Response is within +1.6dB from 100Hz to 20kHz. The low frequency -3dB point is 50Hz. *System impedance is 8 ohms.*
> 
> 
> The center channel impedance is *above 7.5 ohms* throughout most of the low-frequency range. The minimum impedance of 5 ohms occurs at 4.5kHz. This is frequency is high enough to be of little concern. Phase angle lies within +40o over the entire frequency range. This is an easy load for typical multi-channel home theater receivers.



Looks to me like the Audax HT design is not a 4 ohm design after all.


J. L.

PS.

Sorry for the delay in my responses these past few days. I was one of those in North Carolina without any electric power for the past 5 days. (Mother Nature, an Ice Storm, and Duke Power staff reductions all had a lot to do with this)


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hello JL, Glad to hear you've got your power back. My parents and my brother and his family all live in Charlotte. My parents got their power back on Sunday and the last I heard my brother's was still out.


Any new pictures or updates on the speakers will appreciated. I'm going to most likely get the Audax fronts and the center. I've already got the parts on order to build a 250 watt 15" DVC sonosub. As for the receiver, I currently have a Denon AVR 600 which is 5-yrs old and ProLogic only. I'm going to buy a Marantz 5300 which is a 6.1 system. I'll use 3-4 of my 5 Energy speakers in the rear. I may even try to keep my little 8" Energy sub in the system.


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## J. L.

We were better off than some in the recent power outage. Our electricity is fed from the street behind our house, it had lost power. Our cable-tv is fed from the street in front of us. It still had power.


Since we still had a signal on the cable, we were able to watch the news and HBO on a battery powered Sony Watchman with a 4 inch b/w CRT. (yes.. the image was much smaller than the 106 inch screen in our theater)


I temporarily moved construction of the speakers into the living room. (it had windows.. and light)

The cabinets are now assembled with glue and screws. I have filled all the screw holes with wood filler and glued in the acoustic foam. (foam mattress pad from Walmart)

The port tubes have also been installed since the last picture I posted.









Next steps are to mount and wire the crossovers. Then I'll glue on the last side, use the router to trim the sides flush, round over the front edges, and apply the veneer. Looks like I'll be very busy if I am going to get these done before Christmas.


----------



## darthopus

J.L.


Those mains are looking really nice! I noticed that your not flush mounting the 6.5 " drivers on your speakers. Is there any reason as to why? The audax plans call for that. The reason is that it helps with the sound dispersion. I don't know all the ins and outs of baffle design so I could be totally misunderstanding this.


After just checking the site the only plans that show any flush mounting are the midrange woofer on the center channel. I think I got the flush mounting tip from speakerbuilder.net. Now my question is do you notice any degradation in sound on your center channel? I know you don't have a flush mounted center to compare to, but you have said it sounds really good. Flush mounting wasn't difficult, but it wasn't a walk in the park either.


I'm just wondering as when I rebuild the mains I might just not flush mount them, because I'm not sure the thickness of the veneer will be as I can't buy it until much much later. Moving into a new house is expensive!



thanks,


Don


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## Jeff Hovis

JL, those are looking really good. My 15" DVC sonotube parts arrived today. Looks like a trip to Home Depot tomorrow to buy 3/4 MDF. Oh yeah, I've also got to get that 18" sonotube.


----------



## J. L.

Don,


Good eyes... I did flush mount the midrange driver in the center channel. The plans at the Audax site specified for it to be flush mounted. On the other hand, none of the other drivers are shown as needing to be flush mounted.


Therefore, I'm simply following the published plans...


Would flush mounting all the drivers help? Who knows? I'm pretty sure I do not have an acoustically perfect room in which to hear the difference.


Without starting a debate, I can say that I have read it makes a difference that can be measured if you have the right equipment, but that it may not be something you can hear when listening to them otherwise.


Jeff,

Keep us updated as you build your subwoofer. I have plans in the back of my mind to do the same. I was going to try to call a few commercial lighting companies to see if they had any scraps of sonotube. (they use it to pour footings for lights poles in parking lots, etc) The only stuff the local HD stocks is very small diameter.


Joe L.


----------



## jmiyake

I am currently entering the final stages of construction of a variant of the Linus Array.

The Linus Array is a line array project created by Rick Craig and Jim Griffin. It makes a high quality line source an affordable reality for the DIYer.


My variant will have 8 ribbon tweeters and 9 5" mid woofers per side.


You can get some more shots and info on my link. sorry about my webpage, it is just started.

My Linus Array Variant


----------



## rosconey

yup jim knows his stuff


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## jheoaustin

Wow, line source speaker...


Could you tell me what midbass driver you'd like to use??


----------



## jmiyake

I am using 8 Stryke Audio RTw2 ribbon tweeters per side. (These are the same as the HiVi PT2's, I just got a good deal.)
Stryke Audio RTw2 


I am using 9 Vifa PL14 5" midwoofers per side.

Vifa PL14 


(Parts Express is out of stock, apparently some jerk ordered 18 of these and wiped out the whole inventory. Greedy $%#@)










I am very picky when it comes to the midrange. I feel that there are a lot of very good tweeters out there that provide very good results, but there are very few midranges that I find believable and musical. So I set up some listening tests.


I am part of a speaker building club, and as a group experiment we tried out 7 different 5" drivers.


Vifa p13 - No bass, and not a clear as the others. No one liked them

Peerless 134 - Not very detailed, a disappointment

Vifa MG14- Bit of break up, harsh sound, bright yellow kevlar.

HiVi5a - Gorgeous looking, great bass. I didn't like them, but at least one member did.

GR 130- Very nice sounding, sweet. Came in second in my book.

MCM 1855- used in the original design, are actually pretty good. Good bass, Just a bit harsh. Rather inefficent. $11 what a deal!

Vifa PL14- Neutral, clean, detailed, natural. Maybe a tad weak on the bass


After all was done, we all agreed the PL14's were the best sounding 5" that we tested.


They were also amoung the most expensive.


I reduced the number of drivers, since I felt that 12 was really not necessary. Also the designers have commented that the line of 12 was too efficent for the tweeter line. (The MCM's are not very efficent compared to other 5" drivers.) and also to lessen the cost. Still by going with the better drivers I more than doubled the orginal cost of the Line source project. I totally blewup my budget on this one. (We are talking governmentally overbudget here.)


Worth it? Time will tell. (I sure hope so)


James


----------



## jmiyake

Has anyone completed a DIY 5.1 matching surround system? How do you feel about the results?


James


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey guys, I started on the sonosub yesterday. I now have two endcaps that are 1-1/2" thick and a trimmed down 18" sonostube. All I have left is to apply my finish to the endcaps, attach the driver and vent. Then, I'll finish the outside of the tube. I won't have any more time until next week due to business travel and holiday/family travel. If I had 2 more days, I could be listening to it. I will build a bracket for the amp and install it into my built-into the wall equipment rack. I have started a site that documents my progress as I go http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm


----------



## jheoaustin

jimiyake,


I wonder if you tried that famous(notorious?) Scanspeak 15W8530 midbass, which are used in Krell LAT and many other high-end system... I am afraid one or 2 8530 could be more expensive than 4 or 6 of PL14, though... -.-;;


----------



## jmiyake

I have listened to Scanspeak 15W8530 and 8545 in DIY speakers by others. I was rather impressed. Especially with the amount of bass created by such small drivers. Actually I liked the Seas Magnesium and brass line even better. However, believe it or not, I was trying to keep prices down. (I was not entirely successful.)


By using 9 5" drivers per side, efficiency is greatly increased. Since less extension is required from any individual driver, distortion is minmized. Theoretically then, a lesser quality driver can be used with good result, since the driver will only be used in a low demand manner. However I have found that every midrange driver sounds dramatically different. Many of them I do not like. (I am very picky regarding the midrange.) Therefore I did listening test of about 7 different drivers till I decided upon the PL14, even though it costs more then I wanted to spend by about a half.


No doubt I am the only guy in this forum to blow his budget like this.










James


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jmiyake_
> *I have found that every midrange driver sounds dramatically different. Many of them I do not like. (I am very picky regarding the midrange.)*



I agree completely with this statement. I had some speakers I made back around 1992 or so and had a fairly in-expensive paper midrange with cloth treated surround, don't remember the name now, that I replaced with the Audax HM170C0 (Carbon fiber, inverted rubber surround). Once I got the new drivers, I popped them in the speakers to try them and my wife even noticed the difference. I then started my new project, the Maverick 2's and completely re-did my speakers, from ground up. Unfortunatly, I couldn't find anymore of the Panasonic Leaf tweeters I had used before, so I ended up with Vifa aluminim dome tweeters instead. The Panasonics were very nice sounding tweeters. I was able to sell mine to a guy doing a line array with something like 60 of the Panasonics.


----------



## jmiyake

Hey Jeff,

how's the sono sub? Had a chance to work on it yet?

James


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Why yes, I have worked on it some. MY bidness travel has kept me jumping lately. I just successfully fought through the Atlanta traffic to make it home from the airport once again. However, I'm leaving again in the morning to go to a family get-together on my wife's side. I have to wait until Monday to work on it again. Here are the pics of what I've done so far
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm 

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jmiyake_
> *Hey Jeff,
> 
> how's the sono sub? Had a chance to work on it yet?
> 
> James*


----------



## jheoaustin

James,


Thank you for your great information. My hat off to your great effort and speakers.

I wonder if you did other normal 3-way type DIY project. Have you ever evaluated ATC's SM75-150 midrange dome driver? If you did, I hope you'd share some experience with us.


----------



## jmiyake

Hi jheoaustin,

thanks for your kind words.

I have not heard the ATC's SM75-150 nor am I likely to afford a $3000 pr set of drivers. I would hope it would sound very good.


I tend toward getting the biggest bang for the buck. My current project is kinda a poor man's Pipedream, but I am trying to save about $68,500 dollars. Besides, more money doesn't necessarily mean better, especially in audio.


James


----------



## jheoaustin

James,


Thank you for your reply. I agree mostly with you. Just a bit of correction, though, is that ATC driver is just under $1,000 per pair, probably $700, not $3000.


----------



## jheoaustin

James,


I remember McIntosh had some statement with line source speaker that, many tweeters in line source speaker would relieve burden around the crossover frequency, and thus enables wider bandwidth of tweeter(basically lower crossover), and more flat/seamless 2-way loudspeakers. Do you agree?


----------



## SVonhof

jheoaustin, for me, $700 for a pair of drivers, that are not full range (meaning you gotta buy some other drivers too) is just out of my price range. I can only justify so much money for DIY projects, especially if there is a possibility that the project won't go as planned and you don't like the results!


----------



## jheoaustin

Scott,


Thank you for your comments. I agree with you. I don't have a good woodwork skill or fine-tuning knowledge for DIY speaker, so I wouldn't dive in right now. Maybe I would rely on some kit makers.


One of my future expectation is, rapidly developing DSP technologies drving down room EQ features to reasonable price point. I believe this means that some DIY speakers, not tuned optimally due to some reason, could benefit greatly from room EQ features. I think room EQ can give us a lot more chance to tune the system with DIY speaker a lot better, and the driver quality and potential can be much more important than network fine tuning(and hopefully enclosure). It would be even better if multiamp system with active crossover is employed along with DSP room EQ.


----------



## Griff

J.L.,


I am in the process of building the Audax HT system also. Here is a quote from the Audax webpage:


-----"Cut all panels to size and make all holes before assembly. Flush mount all drivers to eliminate diffraction caused by the raised edge of the driver flange. A router will be needed to rabbet driver flanges flush with the baffle. (The TM025F1 micro tweeter does not require flush mounting.) Use weather stripping available at hardware stores to seal the joint between driver flanges and the speaker baffle. A tight seal is especially critical in vented enclosures. -------


I am going to use the larger front design for all 4 speakers. I am also adding some braces to the center cab. Some people feel this isn't necessary, but I'm doing it anyway!


Hopefully you not flush mounting the drivers won't cause a problem with the sound. I'm hoping someone much more knowledgeable than me will chime in on this.




Griff


----------



## jmiyake

----------------------------------------

jheoaustin says: ATC driver is just under $1,000 per pair

----------------------------------------


So I probably shouldn't use these guys as a price source.
driver reference 


----------------------------------------

jheoaustin says:

I remember McIntosh had some statement with line source speaker that, many tweeters in line source speaker would relieve burden around the crossover frequency, and thus enables wider bandwidth of tweeter(basically lower crossover), and more flat/seamless 2-way loudspeakers. Do you agree?

----------------------------------------


I remember hearing the Mcintosh tweeter lines many years ago. Very sweet sounding. They must have designed their tweeters rather differently than regular tweeters. Other tweeters have a very high resonance breakup, 1K or higher. Around the resonance, all they will create is distortion, even at low volume. If you ever crossed over a tweeter too low, you will know it. The sound is not at all pleasant. So it is usually recommended you crossover an octave above this point. The Mcintosh tweeters must have been more like a full range 2" driver. So I agree with your basic premise, but I don't think that you could line up a normal 1" tweeter and get the amount of frequency range that Mcintosh did.


There is a greater problem with any array involving cones and domes. If the center to center distance between drivers, is greater that the wavelength of the highest frequency that the driver is producing, you will get combing and beaming interference patterns. At 10khz the wavelength is about 1.5". Therefore any conventional driver array will have combing and beaming at higher frequencies. This includes some speaker systems that cost many thousands of dollars, as well as the very popular 2" and 3" supercheap driver arrays. What does this sound like? Well it is pretty dramatic, from across the room, if you move your head up and down you will hear a dramatic variation in the highs of the array as your ear passes past each driver. A true line source tweeter such as a ribbon, or planar is required for higher frequencies.


James


----------



## SVonhof

I think the prices are for the kits that the drivers are used in, not the price of the actual drivers. Either that, or we are talking Peso's instead of dollars!

If you look a little farthur down, the Audax HM170C0 is the midrange driver I used and it is says: Audax A652 kit ($685/pr). That is the speaker kit that it is used in, and the driver by itself (price I paid) is about $60.


----------



## J. L.

Griff,


The statement on that page contradicts the drawings and illustrations on the plans themselves.


In my theater, and probably in most listening environments, it is unlikely I would be able to hear the difference between a driver flush mounted and one that is surface mounted.


If you look at the woofers, you will see that even if flush mounted, the rubber surround would protrude past the front panel of the speaker enclosure. It is for that reason I do not think the difference in performance will be detectable.


I am open to advise from the experts out there. It is relatively easy to use my router to flush mount. I do have to wonder why the plans (on the Audax web-site) drawn by Joe D'Appolito only flush mounted the midrange driver in the center channel.


J. L.


----------



## gks

Scott - I visited your site. Lo and behold, your Maverick 2C uses the exact driver/tweeter pair I've picked out for a project I'm planning. They look great!

I noticed that you used Oak Plywood, rather than the standard MDF. I applaud the finished appeal this gives them and would like to shamlessly copy that design. I'm a novice, and have been dutifully conditioned through the reading I've done that hardwoods can cause tonal variances - is this an over-rated thing?


Thanks,

Kevin


----------



## jmiyake

Try in your mind to visualize a perfect point source soundwave. An infinitely small point in space creating the soundwave radiating out perfectly in all directions. It should sound beautiful.


Now place that point on an infinite vertical plane like a wall. The sound now only radiates in 180 degrees. A part of the wave follows the plane's surface but it doesn't ever really go to the listener.


OK so now visualize a raised object on this surface (such as a raised speaker rim). As the sound wave that was following the surface encounters this raised object a portion of the wave reflects off this object. It is almost like the point of deflection itself is generating sound. This sound also radiates outwards, but as it encounters other parts of the orginal soundwave they interfere, causing some cancellation, and some reenforcement and rippling somewhat up and down the frequency response.


Are you going to hear this, maybe yes and maybe no. It might be a little bit of distortion, some harshness, muddiness, or less precise imaging.


The protruding rubber surround of a cone driver causes about a 3 db dip in the driver's frequency response at approximately the frequency of 1 wavelength. For a 5" speaker this is about 2k. Some manufacturers try to account for this in the speaker design. I have even heard of some people placing absorbent material on the rubber surround.


Now we further limit our perfect soundwave environment by placing it on a speaker baffle instead of the wall. As the sound wave reaches the edge of the speaker you get diffraction from the edge, with similar negative effects as in hitting a raised object. So on a standard speaker we have each edge deflecting, the raised drivers, speaker covers, etc... etc. All of this will muddy our clarity and imaging.

The edge diffraction is is especially acute with line source speakers in a rectangular baffle, because they will uniformly encounter the edge for the entire length of the line. Whatever the type of speaker, rounded edges are better, the rounder the better.


Also higher frequencies will radiate at 180 degrees due to the baffle, but as the frequencies go lower they will be less affected by the surface of the baffle and tend to radiate more toward 360 degrees. This causes a significant loss of energy. From about 1000hz down to 100hz you gradually lose 6db of sound energy. This is called baffle step loss. Many builders modify the crossover to account for this.


So do what you wish, but it all has an influence on the sound of the end product.


James


----------



## jheoaustin

Scott,


Thank you so much for your valuable information and opinion. May I ask another question to you?


I think you know bending wave transducer or air motion driver such as ones from Manger, German Physics or Heil drivers. Could you tell me your opinion? I think they are aiming at ideal point source reproduction using non-pistonic motion.


----------



## J. L.

jmiyake,


Thank you for the great description of how flush mounting the drivers will help with imaging.


I am just at the point in constructing the Left/Right speakers where I will be attaching the veneer. You convinced me that the effort is worth a few minutes time. I will get out the router once more and cut the rabbet to flush mount the two 6 1/2 inch drivers. It can't hurt.


Now... we do not have a "point source" with conventional cone drivers. Instead, we have a cone shaped surface with millions of infinitely small point sources on its surface. Furthermore, the speaker cone is not infinitely stiff and weightless. Therefore, it cannot be all moving in the same direction at the same time when driven from the movement of the voice coil. It must have "ripples" on its surface radiating outward, similar to those on the surface of a pond of water when you drop in a stone.


The points on the cone closest to the voice coil must be moving before the points on the cone closest to the surround. This, in my mind, is probably one of the major factors why one driver sounds different than another of different construction.


Do we not have the same cancellation, reenforcement and rippling of the sound we hear at our listening position you described no matter what we do? Is it a matter of choosing good drivers and mounting them as best we can?


J. L.

Now... there are also room reflections to deal with... (I doubt I have a perfect room)


----------



## jmiyake

-----------------------------------------

Now... we do not have a "point source" with conventional cone drivers

-----------------------------------------

You are very correct in pointing this out. Things are far from perfect. Multiple drivers, crossovers, limited frequency range, driver mass. On and on.


A cone is indeed a compromise, although one that has been greatly refined over the years. It's disadvantages lead many to go to alternative drivers, but each of these have compromises of their own.


Part of the fun is improving on the standard factory approach with better craftsmanship, or better quality components, thicker cabinets, more bracing, better damping, better caps, wire, terminals, rounded edges, at least that's one of the things I like about it.


James


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gks_
> *Scott - I visited your site. Lo and behold, your Maverick 2C uses the exact driver/tweeter pair I've picked out for a project I'm planning. They look great!
> 
> I noticed that you used Oak Plywood, rather than the standard MDF. I applaud the finished appeal this gives them and would like to shamlessly copy that design. I'm a novice, and have been dutifully conditioned through the reading I've done that hardwoods can cause tonal variances - is this an over-rated thing?
> *



I don't know how over-rated that is, but the simple fact that I am no using a true hardwood remains. The plywood itself only has the veneer on both sides that are hardwood. Would I make the whole thing out of hardwood, no. Why? Probably a combination of cost and the fact that it may cause the variances in sound that is reproduced. One of the biggest reasons I have used the plywood is the fact that I have never done any veneering in my life, and it just seems like one less step by going this route. Actually, it not one less step, since instead of using one peice for the front panel, you actually end up with 4, since you now have the front panel as well as the three oak 1/4 rounds to make up the rounded edges. It is a pain, well, yes. Will I try a veneer finish in the future, yes. Will it be soon, probably not, I have other projects to do!

As far as copying the design, no, I won't have it. Of course I am kidding. If I didn't want anyone to copy my design, I wouldn't have all the info on the web! The center channel design is basically a copy of the Audax A652 speaker design by Joe D'Appolito that they have posted on their web site, except it uses a Vifa tweeter, instead of the Audax.


jheoaustin, I don't know all that much about the single driver style designs. I have never actually heard a Manger in use, except at CES. The thing I do know about them that makes them great is that they do not use any crossovers, so that the signal goes to them and there is nothing electronically that can alter the signal. I would assume you would want to add a subwoofer to the set-up, since I don't think any of those drivers can handle the air moving capabilities that are needed for the low end of the spectrum. Anyone else have an opinion on this style driver?


----------



## Steve Dodds




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jheoaustin_
> 
> 
> 
> One of my future expectation is, rapidly developing DSP technologies drving down room EQ features to reasonable price point. I believe this means that some DIY speakers, not tuned optimally due to some reason, could benefit greatly from room EQ features. I think room EQ can give us a lot more chance to tune the system with DIY speaker a lot better, and the driver quality and potential can be much more important than network fine tuning(and hopefully enclosure). It would be even better if multiamp system with active crossover is employed along with DSP room EQ. [/b]



I am using an active digital crossover with built-in EQ and room EQ with my DIY speakers at the moment. It is the dbx Driverack PA and it works exceptionally well. Check it out at www.driverack.com. 


It's not quite as good at room EQ as the TACT I used to own, but the combo of fully active triamping, DIY, great drivers and dipoles creates the best sound I've had.


Steve


----------



## J. L.

Well... it was a bit harder than I expected, but... the drivers can now be flush mounted.


I ran into a tiny snag when using my router to flush mount my drivers in my DIY Audax HT Left/Right speakers. It appears that the hole in the front of the cabinet was just about 1/8th inch smaller than I would have liked. It still fit the driver with plenty of room to spare, but when I used a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit, it turned out the flange of the speaker did not fit in the resulting opening.


I ended up using a sanding drum in my cordless drill to open the rabbet up a bit wider so the speakers would fit. I follow that with some hand sanding to make things look a bit more even... IT took a bit more time than I expected.











At this point, everything is ready for the veneer. The crossovers are mounted and wired, the front edges rounded over, and everything sanded smooth.


I hope it is worth it. It put me a few hours behind my self imposed schedule... (I wanted to get these done before Christmas)


J. L.

I *will* hear the difference flush mounting makes... I know I will...


----------



## Griff

J.L.,


I wasn't trying to throw a monkey wrench in your plans!! But on the other hand, how would you have felt if everyone told you to flush mount the drivers after you'd already veneered and mounted them!?! Will the difference be noticeable? Hell, I don't know! But everything I've read about baffles says to flush mount unless specifically designed for surface mounting. Am I an expert? NO! This is the first set of speakers I've ever built. I want them to sound as good as possible, so the wife won't kill me for this expensive new hobby I"ve taken up!!


Hmmmm, wonder how she's gonna feel about a 30" Sonotube sub.....



And what about a line-array for 2-channel only use...


Pray for me!!


Griff


----------



## Griff

ooops, double post!


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys, today, I finally got around to ordering my Audax center and front L/R components. I hope to have the sonosub finished next week. I'm already working on the cabinets for the Audax speakers.

Jeff


----------



## jmiyake

J.L.

well the thought that I may have contributed to your extra effort pains me. However your speakers look great. Nice roundovers at the edges too. Very professional!


It does seem that it takes a bit of working to get the flush mount just right.


Please let us know how it turns out.


James


----------



## J. L.

I'm not sure I'll get the L/R front speakers finished by Christmas... It will be close...


I'm going to hold the entire Internet responsible for my missed date. For that reason, neither you Griff, nor you jmiyake, should feel too bad. (My wife says I get lost when browsing... Problem is, there is so much to learn, millions of pages on the web... and they keep adding more. It is hard to keep up







)


This morning, before setting out for work, I applied "yellow" glue to the top, bottom, and backs of my speakers. I also did the same with pieces of red-oak veneer cut to size for the various surfaces. By the time I get home this evening, they should be dry enough for me to iron on.


I plan on working on one speaker at a time and once I have three sides done, I'll apply glue to the front and sides. I'll let that dry as I go out and do a bit of last minute Christmas shopping. If I am lucky, it will be dry by the time I get back from the stores and I'll get a single piece of veneer wrapped around the front and sides.


J. L.

PS.

My wife is already prepared for the upcoming sonotube sub project. (after the Audax HT rear channels are built) I've showed her pictures (of an 18 inch diameter, 5 1/2 foot tall version similar to the one Jeff Hovis is building) and she has approved. I'm pretty sure Santa is bringing me a 15 inch Adire Tempest driver in a few more days. (Santa...I've been good... honest...







)


----------



## Neuner

I had done an extensive amount of research on DIY speakers including the Internet, Books, and Speaker Builder Magazine. The design I finally went with was the ME2, which is the shorter version of the famous ARIEL.


Link:
http://www.aloha-audio.com/Arieltxt1.html 


I have never been so impressed. I did just as the instructions called out. 2.5" thick front oak, MDF board. Triangle cavities in the rear filled with sand, pure unprocessed wool. The sound is unbelievable! Extremely flat, 3D sound. Sounds like the artists are in the room with you. Movies jump off the screen. I couldn't emphasize these speakers more for DIYourselfers.


However, I do enjoy Martin Logan, ribbon type speakers also. I've been looking at a sort-of non-DIY speaker from:
http://www.justrealmusic.com/content/home1.htm


----------



## Jeff Hovis

As I posted earlier, I ordered the Audax speakers from Madisound today. At 5:35EST, I received a shipping confirmation and tracking number! Looks like I'm gonna have a lot more MDF dust to vacuum. I'm so glad I moved this project from the basement to the garage.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Guys, today, I finally got around to ordering my Audax center and front L/R components. I hope to have the sonosub finished next week. I'm already working on the cabinets for the Audax speakers.
> 
> Jeff*


----------



## darthopus

I too am about to put together the Audax center channel. I ordered the parts from Parts Express so I have to actually assemble the crossover. It shouldn't be too bad as I successfully built the L/R crossovers and they actually worked! I pre cut the MDF when I built the L/R speakers, but as I pointed out in a previous post they didn't come out so straight. I need to get a table saw. I think the center channel cuts were much better, but I'll let you know if it has to be rebuilt too. I plan on rebuilding the mains when my new house is done in February.


At the same time I'm going to be building a EBS alignment Shiva Sonosub. I couldn't believe how hard it was to find that stuff. 10 phone calls later and I was able to find a place that actually sold it by the foot.


I'll try to get pics!


later,


Don


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I've added more to my diy sonosub site. I should be giving it a test run next week.
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm 


Jeff


----------



## darthopus

Jeff,


Thanks for the pics of the sonosub build process. I now understand how the circle jig works and will make my own tomorrow when I start mine.


later,


Don


----------



## Griff

Neuner,


My dream speaker system happens to be 2 Ariels, and 3 ME-2's. maybe after I get off my ass and finish the Audax system I currently have in work, (for far too long). I already have a home for the Audaxes, but that person doesn't know it yet. I want to make sure they work first! The crossovers are being built by me, using specs from Audax page, and some help from speakerbuilder.net. The cool thing is Parts Express is just down the road from me!!


I am looking to see which sub I'm goona build. Right now I have an Infinity BU-2 fart box! Actually, it's not too bad, as long as I don't get crazy with the volume.


Film at eleven!!!!!


Griff


----------



## J. L.

Family get-togethers and holiday shopping took more of my time than I expected. I'm behind schedule... (Perhaps I'll reconsider holding those who convinced me to flush mount the drivers responsible.







)


One speaker is veneered, the other has only the wrap-around front and side piece left to apply. I'm so close to getting these completed.

*Trimming the wrap around veneer for the front and sides was done with the razor knife shown here:*









*Here it is... ready for black aniline dye and finish.*










Last time I was in the Woodworker's Supply store in Burlington, NC, I asked what I could use to get a really flat non-glare finish as I found that the satin finish I used on the Audax center speaker was still way more glossy than I would have liked. The salesman told me of a clear spray lacquer labeled "Dead Flat." He said it had no shine at all.


I tried some on a scrap of the veneer I had dyed after making the center channel. I think it will work out really well. It had no shine or gloss at all on my sample. I do not want to see light from my screen reflected from the sides of my Left/Right speakers. We'll soon see if it works as advertised.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Joe,

Again, great photos. My box-o-Audax parts will be here today. BTW, I'm trying to figure out how to use my new router to round the corners. I have a rounding bit but I think I may need one that has a roller-bearing on the tip. Got any pointers?

Jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Right on schedule at 9:45am, my Audax parts arrived! Too bad I'm leaving for Charlotte at noon for more family visitation. JL, I'm in the same boat as you...the holiday season has really slowed my progress.

Jeff


----------



## Griff

J.L.,


Nice work! I hope mine turn out that well. I have the boxes built, but haven't veneered them yet. What kind of veneer did you use? Did you order it over the 'net? If so, where? I've never veneered before, but have done some laminate work, so I think I'll be okay. I haven't bought the parts yet. After the holidays I'll go over to Parts Express and pick them up. I also have to build some boxes for my brother. He brought some speakers over, and wants me to build the boxes. I have no idea what brand drivers they are, so I'm gonna use a generic three-way crossover from PE. He thinks Home Theater in a Box speakers sounds good, so it oughta work.


Good Luck with the boxes, and keep posting pictures!!!!!



Griff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Griff,

Check out this site:
http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/ 

I'm probably going to buy mine from them. I looked at lots of sites and this one has nice photos of each veneer and they quote the price right on their site...others don't.

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Griff_
> *J.L.,
> 
> 
> Nice work! I hope mine turn out that well. I have the boxes built, but haven't veneered them yet. What kind of veneer did you use? Did you order it over the 'net? If so, where? I've never veneered before, but have done some laminate work, so I think I'll be okay. I haven't bought the parts yet. After the holidays I'll go over to Parts Express and pick them up. I also have to build some boxes for my brother. He brought some speakers over, and wants me to build the boxes. I have no idea what brand drivers they are, so I'm gonna use a generic three-way crossover from PE. He thinks Home Theater in a Box speakers sounds good, so it oughta work.
> 
> 
> Good Luck with the boxes, and keep posting pictures!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Griff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


----------



## J. L.

I would not worry about ordering over the web. (or calling an 800 number)


I used 10 mil paper backed Red Oak Veneer I purchased as Woodworker's Supply company of NC. Fortunately for me, they are in Burlington, NC, about 15 minutes down the road from where I work.


The first 4x8 sheet I purchased I was able to just walk in and they had it in stock. It was enough for the Audax Center, one of the Front speakers, and the top, bottom, and back of the other front speaker. (With a bit of luck and some planning for best use of the material for least waste)


The second time I visited their store, (just before Thanksgiving) they did not have the Red-Oak veneer in stock but offered to drop-ship it with no added shipping charges from the Casper Wyoming store. I took advantage of that offer. It arrived within a few days.

Woodworker's Supply Company - Web catalog page for veneer. 


From what I saw of the samples on the oakwoodveneer.com site, the red-oak I have is similar to their more expensive rotary cut. It looks to me as if they and the local Woodworker's supply are within a few dollars of each other's price. With that in mind, go with whoever has the veneer you like.


Joe L.


----------



## Griff

Someone told me about a place called Tapeease.com. They seem to have excellent prices. I'll try to see if anyone has used them, and how happy they were. I don't mind paying a little extra for a good product and good service....


How happy are you guys with the veneers you got?


Griff


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *BTW, I'm trying to figure out how to use my new router to round the corners. I have a rounding bit but I think I may need one that has a roller-bearing on the tip. Got any pointers?*



I definatly reccomend a bit with a bearing on it. Life is just easier with good bearings, so you don't burn any of the wood, it also makes for smoother more even rounds across the whole length of the cut. Make sure you buy the correct cutter for the router, the shank size, that is, and from what I remember, everyone says the larger the radius the better for edges of the cabinets, which normally means a 3/4" round for a 1/4" shank router bit.


----------



## J. L.

I only have experience with purchasing two sheets of one type of veneer (10 Mil, Paper Backed, Red Oak) in one size (4x8 foot sheet) from one company (Woodworker's Supply of NC). I'm not sure if my veneer is representative of the other woods they stock, or if it is easier or harder to work with than other wood veneers.


With all that in mind....


The two sheets of veneer were very similar in grain pattern and in color even though I purchased them several months apart and that they were supplied from different store locations. One was supplied from the main warehouse in Wyoming, the other from the local warehouse in NC. I would not have any issue in building a project using pieces from each sheet. (In fact, I will do exactly that on one of my front speakers)


The quality was very consistent across the entire 4x8 sheet. It was supplied with the grain parallel with the long edge of the sheet. (Important, you may need to check with the vendor which way the grain goes) The pieces were rolled into about an 8 inch diameter tube across the grain. The cardboard carton was therefore about 4 feet long and 8 inches square.


I needed pieces about 35 inches by 28 inches with the grain parallel to the 28 inch side so I could wrap it around the front edges of the Left and Right speakers. This would NOT have been possible in a single piece if I had purchased a 2 foot by 8 foot piece of veneer. *Did I mention that you should check with your chosen supplier, otherwise, you may not get the grain in the direction you need for the wrap around style cabinet.*


I am very satisfied with the veneer I purchased and the company I purchased it from. The only issue at all was an extra day or two in delivery time when they drop shipped one piece to my house from their main store in Casper, Wyoming over the Thanksgiving holiday. (because their warehouse was closed for the holiday) However, the salesman had alerted me to that delay when I purchased the veneer, and asked me if it was acceptable. I don't think I could have had any easier time with the purchase.


Joe L.


----------



## jmiyake

J.L. man that is looking great!

I am almost at the pre-finishing point myself. I managed to get some things done during the break. Difficult since everyone wants to make merry, and give me spiked eggnog. I have a personal rule, no powertools after alcohol. (I still have all my digits)







Therefore I had to quit early a couple of times.











So I need to do some bondoing, then sanding/sealing. I want a satin black since they are theater speakers. Any tips on finishing? I am not sure about trying the veneer thing. I feel insecure about it.


James

my Linus Array Variants


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Thanks Scott,

My router is a 1/2" with a 1/4" adapter. I've been using a 1/4" straight bit. I'll go back to Home Depot and spend the extra $$ on the bit with a bearing.

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SVonhof_
> *I definatly reccomend a bit with a bearing on it. Life is just easier with good bearings, so you don't burn any of the wood, it also makes for smoother more even rounds across the whole length of the cut. Make sure you buy the correct cutter for the router, the shank size, that is, and from what I remember, everyone says the larger the radius the better for edges of the cabinets, which normally means a 3/4" round for a 1/4" shank router bit.*


----------



## J. L.

James,


It is hard to see details in your picture of your line array enclosures. I can see the left and right edge of your enclosure are rounded over. Did you also round over the top and bottom edges?


If you did round over the top and bottom as well as the sides, it will make the use of veneer more difficult as you will need to deal with the corners that have curves in both the horizontal and vertical direction.


As far as tips... Surface preparation is the key to a good finish, even if veneering. If you can run your fingertips over the surface and feel any imperfections, they will show through the finish... even if using veneer.


If you use veneer, it will give you more choices for the final finish. I was looking for a flat black, wood grain finish, similar to one used on many commercial loudspeakers.


From what I have read, hardest to get is a piano gloss finish, the smallest of imperfections will show. Since you are looking for a satin finish, it will be a little easier. Note: even with a satin finish, imperfections will show.


I used Minwax Polycrylic Satin finish on my center channel. It turned out to have a lot of gloss, more than I would have liked. I would suggest you get a quart of whatever you are considering and experiment on a piece of scrap material *before* using it on your line array enclosure.


I will be using the "Dead Flat" spray lacquer over black, water based analine dye on the Left and Right enclosures. This, with luck, should get me the least reflective surface possible.


I spent far more time getting the surface sanded this time. I also made sure the glue I applied to attach the veneer went on more smoothly than on the center speaker. (I added water to the yellow glue to thin it about 5 percent. It made it a lot easier to apply and get an even coating)

Unevenness in the glue coating showed through the veneer on the back of my center channel. (It was the first piece of veneer I applied. I did it first since it would be least visible)


With all the work you have put into your line arrays, you will want to make them look as good as they sound... and then dissapear when your lower the lights to watch a movie.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL or anyone else who may know...Can I purchase a veneer glue from Home Depot or do I need to find a woodworking supply shop? I'll probably go ahead and order two sheets for veneer from www.oakwoodveneer.com but they don't sell the adhesive.

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


There are at least two different categories of glue I've read about used to apply veneer.


One category is "contact cements" of which there are two types. One type is water based, the other is not and requires a solvent for cleanup. I've read that the water based type *is not* recommended for veneer. The solvent based type is very flamable and must be used in a well ventilated area. It is available at your local "Home Depot" or "Lowes" home improvement store. It is commonly used for veneer and laminate.


The other type of glue is the same yellow wood glue you probably already have used in constructing your cabinets. I used "Titebond" brand, but I really don't think it makes much difference as to the brand.


With both categories, you apply a coating of glue to both the back side of the veneer and the surface to be laminated and let them sit until dry to the touch. (This drying step is much faster with the contact cement than with yellow glue)


Once the glue is dry, you can then apply the veneer.


In the case of contact cement, it bonds upon contact. You must keep the glue surfaces from touching until you have them aligned. I think that would have been very difficult with the wrap around front and side piece of veneer. Once the surfaces touch, they bond. (on contact!) they cannot be re-positioned.


With dried yellow glue, you use a hot iron to apply heat to the veneer to melt the glue between it and the cabinet. You can work from the center outward taking your time to smooth the veneer over the rounded edges of the cabinet. If you do not like the way it bonds, I imagine, heat could let you remove a piece of laminate and re-apply it (I did not have to resort to this since this method is very forgiving).


I used a double thickness of aluminum foil on the bottom of the iron to protect it from any glue for when we need to use it again to iron clothes. (Does anybody iron anymore?) If anything, it helped keep any residual steam (it was my wife's steam iron) from moistening the veneer.


Check out the following links:
How to apply veneer using hot iron and yellow glue and advantages over contact cement 

Further details of hot iron and yellow glue veneer technique 


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Thanks JL,

I didn't realize that I could use the yellow glue. I think I also have Titebond Supreme or something like that. Thanks for the pointers.

Jeff


----------



## jmiyake

Since we have been talking about roundover bits...

I have always believed in rounding edges to lessen edge diffraction. Until recently I thought the 3/4" radius roundover bearing bit at the hardware store was the largest available, and I have used it all over.


Of course the more gradual the edge the better. I found out that they make a 1.5" radius roundover bearing bit! (I had no idea.) So I HAD to get one of these. I located one at an industrial tool store in town. It was very expensive $140. (Don't tell the wife...) I was extremely scared about whether my router could handle it and how it would cut, since the bit was HUGE, about 3 5/8" in diameter with a 1/2" shank! I had to manufacture a custom base for it since it was about 1" bigger than the current router opening. The bit is actually too large to sit within the router and I had to mount the bit below the router and make the base thick enough to engulf the edge. I used 3/8" clear acrylic.


I was very worried about whether it would work, but it cut just fine. It did make the most amazing amount of sawdust I have ever seen, I have a vacuum attachment for the router, but it couldn't even keep up with the 5 foot fountain of sawdust this bit was making. I mean it was pulverizing almost the equivalent of a 1" x 1" on a single pass.


Anyway here is a picture of the giant bit, my custom base, the dwarfed router, and the radius that was cut.


I love the broad radius, it begins almost at the end of the flush mounted drivers.


J.L. you can see in this picture I only rounded the vertical edges.


James


----------



## J. L.

James,


Wow... you do things in a BIG way. That is one heck of a router bit. I'm pretty sure that was intended to be used in a table mounted router or jointer. I'll bet it took a bit of courage to take it to the sides of your enclosure.


Given that you did not round over the top and bottom edges of your enclosures, I would go with a veneer finish applied using the dry yellow glue and hot iron on technique. It is really hard to mess it up and the resulting surface would be great even if you decide to finish with a satin lacquer top coat rather than the more traditional stain, etc.


I really like the way the black aniline dye soaked into my veneer to give me a very uniform color with very little effort. It was much easier than the usual wax based stains I have used in the past. I used a 1 inch foam brush and it blended very well since it has the consistency of water. It results in a very flat black surface with a nice grain texture.


Once at that point, you can try different finishes on a scrap to get the desired gloss (or satin) finish. Only then do I recommend that you use the top finish on your line array cabinets.


Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof

Joe L., could you pass on more info on your dead flat spray? Brand name, MFG part number, whatever? I would like to see if my local HD or Lowes has it so I can try it!

jmiyake, HOLY CRAP BATMAN! That is one honkin bit! I don't think I would do that with a hand-held router! Scare the crap out of me to even try it! I beleive you when you say that your vacuum could not keep up, especially with MDF! Looking good! When you are all done, can I come over and check it out? I live in Manteca, about an hour from SJ.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I concur!



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SVonhof_
> 
> HOLY CRAP BATMAN! That is one honkin bit! I don't think I would do that with a hand-held router! [/b]


----------



## J. L.

Scott,


The spray lacquer I purchased is made by "H. Behlen" as part of their "Master" brand. The MFG model number is B101-0883.


I purchased it from Woodworker's Supply in Burlington, NC. It is their catalog number 934-154. It was the salesman there who recommended it if I was looking for a flat finish with no gloss or shine.


If you go to their web-site (woodworker.com) and search for "dead flat" you will find it for $6.99 a can.


It is in a 13 oz blue colored spray can.


The label says:
*

H. Behlen
Master

Jet Spray

Lacquer Finish

B101-0883

Jet Spray

Lacq. Clr. Dead Flat
*


The back of the can says in small print:
*

For Industrial and Commercial Use only.

Manufactured by: H. BEHLEN & BRO.

Amsterdam, N.Y. 12010 - An RPM Company.*


I have not seen the brand at either of the local Lowes or Home Depot. I did a search on the web and it looked like it was carried by places catering to refinishers and woodworkers.


As I said in an earlier message, I tried it on a piece of scrap veneer I had dyed black with the aniline dye and once it dried, I could not tell any difference from where I had applied the lacquer and where I had not. Both were flat black. The lacquer added no shine of its own.


Joe L.


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## jmiyake

Sure Scott, you'd be welcome.

Always happy to talk with another HT/stereo enthusiast. The sound of a Line Array is rather addicting, fast, big, dynamic, powerful.

Do you like ale?

James


----------



## jmiyake

Scott said: Holy Crap! Batman

Jeff said: Holy Crap! Batman

I had a speaker building friend come over yesterday.

When she saw the bit she said: Holy Crap!


It went really smooth. I took it slowly, but there was no jumping, no chatter and no real problems. So I don't know if I am reckless, or what.


James

(I still have all my body parts)


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## J. L.

I made a bit of progress today on the Audax HT Left/Right Front speakers.










The wrap-around piece of veneer was attached yesterday evening to the front/sides of the second enclosure. I trimmed it this morning, gave the edges of the veneer a final sanding, and took the enclosures outside to apply the aniline dye.


After several coats of dye, the enclosures looked like this:










Here you can see the wrap-around veneer and how nice it looks once trimmed and dyed:










I used a roundover bit on the ports. I also cut about a 1/8th inch rabbet to make it easy to trim the veneer. Here you can see the rear of the enclosures. The second hole is for the terminal cup.










Since I did not have enough time for the water based aniline dye finish to dry and then apply the lacquer, I brought the enclosures inside to finish drying overnight. It would also let me judge how they would look adjacent to the screen in my theater. (Wife and I watched a movie this evening. The enclosures reflected very little light from the screen... We are both pleased with the appearance)










So close... Tomorrow is supposed to be warm. I just might be able to sand the grain raised from the first coats of applied dye, and then apply another coat of dye to even out the color. (As long as I don't get stuck at work too late)


Joe L.


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## SVonhof

James, you will have to let me know when they are done, and I will come on over. Do I like Ale? Depends what kind, I guess. I am more into the Cabernet's and the Tawny Ports and desert wines.


Joe, those speakers are looking great. Time for me to start some more projects with the woodworking skills. I want to re-do my equipment rack someday, I will try to get some of the laquer for that project and may end up re-making my speaker cabinets someday....


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## Jeff Hovis

James,

I like ale;-) I also like a good Cabernet or an Aussie Shiraz! I also love those speakers you're building! JL, yours are looking great also.


As for my speakers, yesterday was in the 60s here and I didn't get anything done but priming. Today, it's a lot cooler and I have sanded and added a second coat of primer to the sonosub end caps. I have also started painting the tube but the temp is in the 40s and the paint probably won't dry. On the other hand, I finally opened the boxes of Audax parts to check against the packing slip and man, these are nice components! The individual Audax boxes are very well put together and presented very nicely. Madisound did a nice job packing it all and were able to use the foam for padding. Maybe, I'll start cutting the cabinets for these while the paint on the sonosub dries.

Jeff


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## darthopus

J.L.


Again your speakers are looking wonderful. These pics, and the fact that my center channel is coming along really nicely has reaffirmed my desire to rebuild the cabinets for my L/R Audax's.


I'll post pics of the speaker hopefully tomorrow. Unfortunately the weather has not allowed me to build where I am temporarily living and having to drag the kids to my parents while I'm using my Dad's garage is not fun either. I'm going to have to wait until my new house is done to apply the finish as well as finish the sonosub.


The upside is the crossovers will be done tomorrow, if I get my back ordered part, for the center channel and I am going to place the shiva in the box I built for it a few months ago. I am going to haul my system over to my parents, where my Mits is located, on Thursday and test everything out. It has been awhile since I watched a movie on decent TV with a decent sound system.


Scott,


I might take you up on your offer of using the table saw in a couple of months.


Later,


Don


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## SVonhof

?? Manteca Man (darthopus), are you drowning in all the rain that is coming down, causing you to mis-type and submit reply?


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## darthopus

Scott,


Let that be a lesson to all about leaving your laptop in mid post, near a toddler, while you make a bottle for your 4 month old. She managed to type in garbage, submit the reply and shut down the browser. She's cute most of the time!


Don


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## jmiyake

A Major Milestone!


My line arrays are wired and connected and now playing at a theater downstairs. Still unfinished, but I want to do some tuning and tweaking, then I'll round out the port hole and finish it.


They arrays seem much bigger in the house, than in the garage. The wife likes them! (Thank God for that!) They really need to be flat black, when I put on the projector, I was getting a bit of reflection washout on the screen. Also the inside walls of the speakers would glow.


As far as the sound?

Well it is to early to make any judgments, the speakers are not broken in. The woofer crossover is not optimal and the port is not tuned yet.


But...Good things seem to be in store.

The sound is BIG! Dynamic. Exciting. Yet after just a bit of tweaking, very precise, and detailed. The sense of space is amazing.


However it is not even close to being dialed in yet. There is some harshness and some peaking in the crossover area. Which make certain types of music that emphasize this region a bit unpleasant. the mids and the tweets seem to be overlapping too much. I am able to affect this sound in messing with the crossover, but I don't have the correct parts yet to bring things in line. It seems very fixable.


The cabinets are so dead. No vibration is apparent even while they are blasting loudly. Tapping on them is like tapping on concrete. Check my link for some of the steps I took to insure a dead cabinet.

Linus Array Variants 


I have definitely noticed the woofers smoothing out due to break in over the last few hours. (Maybe it's my ears, but I don't think so.)


Also my early listening hints that I will probably want a center channel. Although the image stays in front of you, if you move to an extreme right or left, it leaves the center of the screen which does not surprise me. The phantom center thing works ok if the speakers are close enough, and you stay near enough the sweet spot. When I went front projection, and spread out the speakers for the screen, the whole phantom thing fell apart.


Anyway, Happy New Year everyone!


James (of the Two Towers)


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## Jeff Hovis

In-freakin credible! Nice job.

Jeff


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## Jeff Hovis

JL,

I worked on my sub and my center all day today. I took off about 7-hrs for a little New Year's family time. I came down to the basement to check the progress of my drying center. I have a question: What type of bit do you use to flush mount the drivers? Are you just using a straight bit set at a shallow depth and moving it over a little at a time or is there a specific bit for this?

Jeff


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## J. L.

Jeff,


To flush mount my drivers, I used a roller bearing rabbeting bit similar to the one pictured at this link: rabbeting bit 


The bit I used was a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit. I set the router depth so it would cut about 1/4 in deep and let the roller rest against the driver opening.


Now... It would have been much easier if the driver opening was 1/2 inch smaller than the required diameter for the front flange of the driver. In my case, it was about 1/8th inch smaller than I needed. I then had to make the rabbet wider using a sanding drum.


When I build the rear channels, I'll make sure that the driver opening is exactly 1/2 inch smaller than the opening I need for the flush mount. This will also make it very easy to trim the veneer as I can simply use the same bit, set for very shallow depth to trim the veneer in the driver openings. (By the time I finish the HT speakers, I'll know how to build them.. if I were to do it again.







)


You could use your straight cutting bit if you made a template to guide it. (Just might save you $30 and another trip to the hardware store.) Simply cut a circle in a piece of 1/4 plywood with a diameter such that when the router base is held against its inside edge, the router bit would trace a circle the diameter needed for the driver flange. Then temporally clamp the guide to the cabinet and the rest is easy.


Joe L.


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## Jeff Hovis

Thanks JL,

As soon as I saw rabbeting bit, I remembered. I'm thinking about using my handy little Jasper Circle Jig to cut a series of decreasing 1/4" deep circles. I would start at the widest point and move the cut inward until it is wide enough for the flange. Shouldn't take too many passes. Then, I will simply cut all the way through for my drivers. It takes 5-seconds to change the setting on my circle jig. Sounds simple enough...I'll know this afternoon when the glue is all dry. My center will be fully assembled minus veneer by tomorrow. I built the box yesterday.

Jeff


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## jmiyake

Thanks Jeff.

I am excited, and really really relieved, that it seems to be working out.


The thing to get your head around is if you flush mount your drivers, the outer diameter is the one that matters. Really you have some play for the inner hole and it's exact size is not important. However you must make sure you have sufficent space available for the screws to bite into, and some drivers leave very little play.


I had to get fairly good at this, I had 18 woofer holes to flush mount, with a separation of 1/8".


Anyway I used the 2 template method.

We carefully marked the centerline of each woofer on the baffle surface.


I used a collet, and separate templates for the outer inset and inner hole. Using a collet, means that my template holes are oversized by 1/8" Also I found 1/2" shank bits much more stable on 1" thick pieces of MDF. I really recommend them.


I created a template for the outer diameter with a block to align it the correct distance from the vertcal edge of the baffle, and drilled and marked holes to be able to correctly align to the centerline of the woofer to the centerline markings on the baffle. I also drilled a spotter hole that would let me see the edge of the previous hole to double check my alignment. Since the most critical issue was to insure the drivers were correct distance apart.


When you router the outer inset, remove sufficent material around the edge so that you don't need to go back and clean up material between the outer inset and the inner hole. Also make sure you account for the thickness of driver damping/sealing material, and perhaps finish (veneer, laminate, 18 coats of hand polished lacquer, whatever.)


For the inner hole, I created a similar template again with a stop block to align the vertical edge of the baffle. To align with the outer inset I drilled alignment holes on the template centered on the diameter of the larger outer hole. When I placed the inner hole template on top of the routered outer inset, I used the back of a drill bit as a feeler gauge, to insure equal distance from both edges.


A couple of other things that you might want to consider. (These are the kinda things that drive you mad.) Some builders consider it important to place some sort of damping to decouple the driver from the speaker baffle to reduce cabinet vibration caused by direct contact between the cabinet wall, and the basket of the driver. Well, consider how this is complicated in a flush mounted situation. Not only should you decouple from the back of the driver, but now you need to decouple from the edge of the outer inset. Also if this type of madness becomes important to you, than you will wish to torture yourself further by considering the fact that the hole will shrink slighty during humid conditions.


Have a nice day









James


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


To flush mount my center midrange driver, I did exactly what you are saying... I used my circle jig (jasper jig equivalent) to cut a 1/4 inch deep groove the diameter of the driver flange, then changed pin locations in the jig to cut a smaller diameter hole completely through the MDF for the driver itself.


You only need the rabbeting bit with the bearing if you are doing it after you have the hole for the driver cut. I did it that way for my L/R front speakers when I was convinced by jmiyake to take a few minutes to flush mount the midwoofers... after I had already cut the driver openings.


As I said earlier, if you have the rabbeting bit, it will make it easier to trim the veneer as it will do the job in seconds rather than having to cut the veneer by hand as I had to do. (Actually, I used the rabbeting bit first, andd then cut the remaining 1/8 inch with the razor knife by hand.)


I suppose you could to the same thing if when using the jasper jig, you make the flange diameter 1 inch wider than the driver opening diameter. Then you could use the 1/2 inch rabbeting bit to trim the veneer.


You are making great progress... way faster than me. I still have to build the rear speakers before I start my sonosub. If I was closer to you, I would be interested in your spare 6 ft length of sonotube,







unfortunately, with gas prices as they are, it is less expensive to purchase it locally.


Joe L.


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## Jeff Hovis

jmiyake & JL,

Thanks for all the pointers. It's nice to have people who have done this stuff before.


Measure twice, cut once!

Jeff


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## Jeff Hovis

OK,

I've updated the sonosub page:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm 


and I've also added a new page for my Audax speaker project:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/audax_center001.htm 


Jeff


Jeff


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## Jeff Hovis

Guys,

I'm looking very closely at the Audax PDF and for the center channel, it only shows the midrange being flush mounted.


As for the L&R front speakers...the PDF doesn't show anything being flush mounted.


Could someome 'splain this to me?

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


There are conflicting statements and drawings on the Audax web-site. The PDF files only show the midrange on the center flush mounted. Granted, it is probably the most critical driver in the entire HT set as most dialog will come through it.


Another page says to flush mount all drivers, except the tweeters, since their design does not require that they be flush mounted. I can only guess that either different people wrote those pages and illustrations, or, perhaps Joe D'Apolitto did not initially think it worth the effort to flush mount the drivers, but changed his mind after the drawings were submitted to Audax but before the web-pages were put on line. We can only guess.


Back around this post I asked the same question. Was it worth the effort?


A strong argument was made to flush mount the drivers, so I did on the Left/Right front enclosures currently being built.


Will I hear the difference? Who knows? But technically, I was convinced by other forum members that it is better for precise imaging.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Oh well, looks like I'm going to have to go back with a rabbeting bit and flush mount the woofers in the midrange. The Audax site has been down and I can't get in.

Jeff


----------



## Addicted Help!!




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ted White_
> *Looking for plans for very high quality theater speakers. I'm not into design software, but rather looking for some plans that have been proven winners.
> 
> 
> Anyone?
> 
> 
> Ted*



What is a DIV speaker? I have no idea what that means and curiosity is killing me.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

I'm wondering if you have a picture of your crossover wiring? I've never built speakers before and don't know nothin 'bout lectronics. The instruction sheet shows diagrams of the boards but I need directions that say connect A to B and so forth.


Any guidance from anyone on these things would be welcome.

Thanks,

jeff


----------



## jmiyake

DIY = Do It Yourself. Speakers that are build, from scratch, kits, or plans.


James


----------



## J. L.

I spent the morning putting four coats of dead flat clear lacquer on my Audax HT front enclosures. The finish came out exactly as I wanted.


Once they were dry, it was time to mount the drivers and give them a try.


They sound pretty decent. Deep bass and nice mids and highs too. I'll have to let them play for a few days to break them in before I do any critical listening but so far, I am very happy.











As you can see from the picture, these are not small speakers. They stand about 25 inches tall and probably weigh about 40 lbs. In the background you can see the center channel atop my stage.


Now... I can start on the rear speaker enclosures... This must mean it is time for another trip to Home Depot to get more MDF.... and make more sawdust...


Jeff,

I'm not sure what you want to see with a picture of the crossover? Madisound gave a wiring diagram showing their physical crossover layout and how to connect them to the drivers. That was in addition to the schematic diagram of the crossovers. It might be what you are looking for. It is on the last page of the instructions (it may be on the back of the last page)


Joe L.


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## Jeff Hovis

Ahh, I think I'm missing that page. I definitely need something that says connect a wire here and here and here...you know I need my hand held all the way when it gets to the wiring.

Jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

I almost forgot to tell you that those speakers look great! My center is gigantic when compared to my old center. I took some pictures comparing the two on my siy site.

Jeff


----------



## SVonhof

J.L., everything looks really good!


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## darthopus

Jeff,


I have some pics of the crossovers I built for my L/R Audax speakers. They aren't from Madisound though. I built them using components from Parts Express. I'm sure they don't look as pretty as the Madisound ones, but they work!


I can post them for you with a brief write up of what goes where. Are the Madisound xovers already assembled? If so the write up will be easy. If not I can try and help the best I can.


Let me know how detailed you need and I can start typing!


later,


Don


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hi Don,

The Madisound crossovers are prebuilt. I called them today and they talked me through it by phone. I think I can get it now. If not...I'll cry to you guys some more.

Thanks for the offer,

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by darthopus_
> *Jeff,
> 
> 
> I have some pics of the crossovers I built for my L/R Audax speakers. They aren't from Madisound though. I built them using components from Parts Express. I'm sure they don't look as pretty as the Madisound ones, but they work!
> 
> 
> I can post them for you with a brief write up of what goes where. Are the Madisound xovers already assembled? If so the write up will be easy. If not I can try and help the best I can.
> 
> 
> Let me know how detailed you need and I can start typing!
> 
> 
> later,
> 
> 
> Don*


----------



## darthopus

Jeff,


No problem. You should try being cheap like me. I saved a couple of hundred by buying the componets and building them myself, but it took several hours of reading various crossover tutorials until I felt comfortable doing it.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I've added more updates to the Audax page:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/audax_center001.htm 


and the sonosub page:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm 

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


Nice progress on both of your projects. It is really great to be able to follow along. Eventually, I'll need to put together a set of web-pages. So far, I have just linked images to this thread.


I noticed that you cut away the MDF behind the flange on the Audax midrange driver. Did you leave enough material so you can make an airtight seal when you mount the midrange driver? (madisound supplied foam weatherstripping tape to help make an airtight the seal in the kit of parts they sent me) I think it is supposed to be a sealed sub-enclosure.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

I checked that last nignt and it "seems" to be airtight. Originally, I made the opening exactly as the instructions said and the mid driver would not go all the way in. That's why I cut the slots with a jigsaw. I may have to trim the weatherstripping a little and use some caulk to finish the job.

Jeff


----------



## SVonhof

Jeff, what the heck? I didn't read all the info on your sono-sub, but how are you going to finish the outside of the sub, since it is red right now, and much smaller on the O.D. than the top and bottom caps.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Scott,

I had one of those artsy moments and I've got to see if it will work. If it does, I'll post the pics of the finished exterior tonight. If it doesn't work...I'm painting it black and putting a sock on it;-) Originally, I wanted my Audax speakers to have woodtone finishes but after seeing JLs done in flat black to reduce reflections, I may do the same. I was also going to build some stands but now I'm rethinking that as well. I may build a stage and either enclose the fronts in the stage of a set of MDF columns.


Here's a question to you guys: If I build a stage or columns to house the center and fronts...do I stuff it/them with insulation?


Jeff


----------



## SVonhof

Depends on the stage. If your stage is actually a false front wall, you can build it out of 2x4's and cover it all with black fabric, leaving it for the most part, "open". This will not create a cavity to place the speaker in, therefore eliminating the secondary box. You may want to start browsing the posts in the "Home Theater Builder" section.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys two things:

1st a question about crossovers. I have soldered all the wire from the crossovers to the speakers. Next I have to solder on the input wires. My question: Do I just run separate wires from the positive and negative terminals to each input on the three crossovers or do I run these things in series?


2nd...The sonosub is finished! I had to work out a bug but got it at 1am. I still have to complete the outside but it's done!


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


The three sets of wires (one from each crossover board) are wired in parallel to the terminal cup. I'm sure you already know, but just in case, make sure you keep the "polarity" as indicated in the crossover schematic.


To wire my crossovers, I used speaker wire where one lead was tinned and the other was copper colored and made the copper colored wire the "+" polarity.


Therefore, I connected all three "+" wires (copper colored) from the crossovers to the red binding post on the terminal cup, and all the "-" wires (silver colored) to the black binding post.


Oh yes, the wider terminal on the Audax drivers is the "+" terminal and the narrower terminal the "-". This was not clearly indicated on my tweeter and I had to go the the Audax web-site to get their spec sheet to figure it out. ( I notice their web-site is still not on-line, so figured you would have a tough time getting to their specs )


I used .187 inch (4.8mm) female quick disconnect terminals to make the connections to my drivers. I used the same size for both + and - connections. Although they are available at Radio Shack in a terminal assortment they carry, I found the local Autozone parts store carried boxes of 22 for less than it would cost for the two or three assortment packs you would need to buy from RadioShack.


The terminals are a very tight fit, therefore I "loosened" them up just a tiny bit using the tip of a jewelers screwdriver before attaching them to the terminals on the Audax drivers. I did not want to damage the drivers by applying too much force.


Sounds like you are making lots of progress. I liked the picture of your old center channel speaker perched atop the new center cabinet. What type of display do you have in your theater to support the center channel? CRT







? LCD







? Widescreen Direct view







? 12 inch B/W TV







?


Have you given any thoughts yet about stands for your speakers? I will have to decide myself. Currently, the Left and Right are sitting atop small subwoofer cabinets on each side of my stage. Those subwoofers will be replaced with a sonosub like the one you are building in the next few months. My wife and I are trying to find a style of stand we both like (and one that is easily built) for the L/R speakers. I want their tweeters to be at ear level when we are seated. The center channel is another issue.


I was lucky enough to attend a talk given by Dennis Erskine on the 2002 Home Theater cruise discussing theater design and audio. He described that we are much better off placing the center speaker *above* the screen than below. This is because we are better at localizing sounds near the ground (below ear level) than near the ceiling (above ear level) Since in this case we want the sound to seem to come from the screen rather than below it, he said it will sound more integrated with the images on the screen if mounted above it.


I will be making a suspended shelf for my center speaker. It will be finished "flat black" to reflect as little light as possible and be above my screen, angled downward to point the speaker toward my front row of seats. When I do that, it will get rid if the distracting reflection of light from the screen I currently have from the top rounded edge of the cabinet.


So little time... so much sawdust... I have to get more MDF from Home Depot.


Joe L.

PS. Ok, now that you finished the sub at 1 AM, did you have the nerve to test it or will you wait till the morning when the rest of your family is awake? Let us know how it sounds.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

Thanks for the confirmation on wiring. I've been using similar wire in my cabinet and also wrap each positive end with a piece of blue electrical tape.

I've purchased my connectors from Home Depot. Last night, I wore out one soldering tip and will probably need to buy more. Thanks for the tip about the speaker terminals, I hadn't noticed the difference.


In my theater, I use front projection. I just sold my CRT to a fellow in Louisiana and I bought a DLP. I'm not a purest or an audiophile and I like the bright picture and the blacks are really good on this thing. Best of all is the size and it's plug-n-play connection. The CRT could be a real pain if you moved it an inch.


Stands: I plan to build a set of stands similar to these
http://www.rutledgeaudiodesign.com/ (click on the GR Research button to see Brian Bunge's stands). RAD is a compnay in GA that primarily builds cabinets for speaker companies. He is also getting into the install business and designs his own speakers. For my center, I may build one like Mike Knapp did for his over on HTT http://www.hometheatertalk.com/Revie...my_system.html 

Scroll down to the "Black Mamba" Adire Center Channel speaker he built.


As soon as I'm finished with the speakers, I'll be turning my HT around to make it larger. It is currently in a narrow space at one end of the finished basement that is 11x12 feet. When I turn it around, the size will increase to 14x30. The width expands by two feet once you are beyond the 11' width of the current location. That used to be a separate room and we had the wall removed to open up the space. The screen will be on the 11' wall. I'll have pictures as I move it around. I'm also considering a stage and some columns to possibly house the C, FL & FR speakers. If I do that, I may not veneer them. I'm really torn on that one. I love the look of a nicely turned-out speaker and I'd like to be able to show them off. On the other hand, I like the real theater look of enclosed speakers. I'm leaning toward finishing the speakers and the theater w/o the stage and if I decide I need a new project, the stage and enclosed speakers will be it.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys,

More on the sonosub. I got a chance to turn up the volume more this morning. All I can say is make sure your room is large enough for one of these things. I still have it in the small end of my basement HT and it energized the entire room. I could feel the pressure change and it made the hairs on my arm move. Once I get into the larger space, I'll be very selective about it's location.


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


Click on the links on the left of the following page to see a great looking set of stands for the Audax Home Theater Front speakers. Also check out the link for the Stands.


I am thinking of something like these... but in flat black to match my speakers.
Check out the Audax HT speakers and Stands built by this DIY'er 


Great news on the sub... I figured your family would not have been happy if you cranked up the volume on it in the middle of the night... I can't wait to start on mine... but first, the rear surround speakers have to be built. I'm going to Home Depot this afternoon... there is hope yet I'll catch up to you.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

I've seen that exact site before. Those are nice stands and I think the same design as Brian's at RAD. I'll be out of town from Mon-Thurs and won't get to work on mine again until next Fri. I still have some time today and tomorrow but today is Christmas decoration take-down day.

jeff


----------



## btrvalik

I'm looking at building a sealed sub into a knee wall in my home theater. I'm planning to use a 15" driver... Stryke AV15 seems like one of the best. Since the knee wall is essentially dead space, I can build a fairly large box that could be on the order of 12-15 CF. All the designs I've seen are targeted at 3-4 CF enclosures. My thinking that as the box gets bigger it starts to approach an Infinite baffle design. Is there any disadvantage to making it larger than the T/S parameters call for ? The box will be triangular and be externally braced by the roof joists, floor joists, and knee wall framing. I'm also thinking about doing some internal bracing. I've seen that a number of people cut a series of random holes into a sheet of MDF for the internal brace. Is there any science to this or is it just cut a bunch of holes while leaving sufficient meat to make it stiff ?


Thanks

Bruce


----------



## btrvalik

actually intended to post this to the DIY sub thread....


----------



## Vrooman

After reading thru this thread, the Audax kit caught my interest. When I go to their website, it is dead. Does anyone know if Audax is still around or whether they have gone the way of the dodo? Also, do speaker kits never/sometimes/always include a schema for building the cabinets? I imagine they would, but would like to hear from someone who knows. Thanks.


Brian S.


----------



## rosconey

i think madisound still has audax kits.


----------



## Vrooman

Thanks. I noticed that Madisound, among others, still carry the kits. But the concerning thing is that most sites that sell Audax have broken links to Audax.


Also, anyone know whether speaker kits never/sometimes/always include a schema for building the cabinets?


Thanks again,


Brian S.


----------



## SVonhof

Many of them have reccomended sizes or dimensions. The construction styling of the cabinets are up to you, as is the ratios, since sometimes the size they have spec'ed will not work for placement.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

If you buy the kits from Madisound, you'll get prebuilt crossovers and cabinet plans. The Audax site has been down for about a week now. I don't think they are out of business...at least I hope not.

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vrooman_
> *Thanks. I noticed that Madisound, among others, still carry the kits. But the concerning thing is that most sites that sell Audax have broken links to Audax.
> 
> 
> Also, anyone know whether speaker kits never/sometimes/always include a schema for building the cabinets?
> 
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> 
> Brian S.*


----------



## J. L.

Madisound included printed copies of the Audax web-pages needed to construct the Audax Home Theater speakers with their "kits" I did not need to use the material from the audax web-site to construct the cabinets. The supplied paper copies were sufficient.


As Steve said, the dimensions (inside and outside dimensions) of the cabinet are given. As he also indicated, I was able to keep the volume of the Left/Right front speakers as designed and yet reduce their depth, by increasing their height accordingly. Most folks will not need to do this.


Also...


I did a quick check and the Domain Name Server entry for Audax.com expired on Dec 25, 2002. That is why we can't get to their web-site.


I sent e-mail to the two contacts listed in WHOIS to alert them to the situation.


In the meantime, anybody know the actual IP address of the www.audax.com site? I'll bet they are still accessible via it.


Joe L.



> Quote:
> Registrant:
> 
> Audax America, Inc. (AUDAX-DOM)
> 
> 6 New England Executive Park, Suite 400
> 
> null
> 
> US
> 
> 
> Domain Name: AUDAX.COM
> 
> 
> Administrative Contact:
> 
> Nichols, Ralph (RNJ25) [email protected]
> 
> Audax
> 
> 6 New England Executive Park, Suite 400
> 
> Burlington , MA 01803
> 
> 781-229-7355 (FAX) 781-229-7356
> 
> Technical Contact:
> 
> Young, Sean (SY679) [email protected]
> 
> DEADLINE
> 
> 514 Fourth St.
> 
> New Orleans, LA 70130
> 
> US
> 
> 504-606-7883 123 123 1234
> 
> 
> Record expires on 25-Dec-2002.
> 
> Record created on 24-Dec-1995.
> 
> Database last updated on 6-Jan-2003 11:43:06 EST.
> 
> 
> Domain servers in listed order:
> 
> 
> NS1.SHORE.NET 192.233.85.129
> 
> NS3.SHORE.NET 192.233.145.6


----------



## SVonhof

BTW, There is an Audax site that is in French, but allows for english translation. It is very limited as to what is on there, but if anyone wants to e-mail them through that site, it may be a good idea. The site is: www.audax.fr


----------



## J. L.

Bummer...


The email I sent to Ralph Nicholes came back as undeliverable.


Reason: Unknown Recipient


----------



## EMT

I saved the Audax home theater system info from their web site to my hard drive a couple years ago when I was considering the system. I can probably zip up the files and send to those interested.


----------



## J. L.

EMT,


I have the three PDF files (plans for the Center, L/R, and Rear speakers) but do not have the text from the web-site that describes the speakers.


Do you have copies of the web-pages themselves?


J. L.


----------



## skriefal

I just looked up the IP address for www.audax.com. It's 209.58.221.7, and yes it is still active. However, they appear to be using virtual server software that relies on seeing " www.audax.com " in the URL you use to hit the site, so simply typing in that IP into your browser address bar won't work.


You can, of course, add an entry mapping www.audax.com to 209.58.221.7 into your C:\\Windows\\system32\\drivers\\etc\\hosts file, and then you should be able to access the site as www.audax.com. You may or may not need to reboot after editing the file.


(Note: I don't know anything about Audax; just thought I'd be helpful here...)


----------



## J. L.

skriefal,


Thanks for the true IP address. I tried to figure out how to determine the real IP address, but everything I found relied on the name server lookup... which obviously is not working.


I added the entry to my hosts file so I could capture copies of the web-pages. It works as expected.


Now all we need to do is get somebody at Audax to renew their domain registration. I'll bet they don't even know they are off the map.


Thanks again....


Joe L.


----------



## blitzkreig

Joe I had to laugh... I went home and checked out whether or not I had d/l the web-page as I am fond of doing and I hadn't... but I had copies of every one of your pictures of the Center Channel


----------



## J. L.

blitzkreig,


I didn't think my photography skills were that good. I am honored for someone to have started a collection.


Joe L.

(It is a good thing you can't see all the bad photos I erase. You would lose all respect for my work







)


----------



## EMT




> Quote:
> Do you have copies of the web-pages themselves?



Yes.


----------



## safaa

i`ve seen 3 ways crossover at RS are they anygood
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=40%2D1299


----------



## J. L.

saffa,


It is my understanding that a crossover is designed using the specific drivers in a speaker enclosure to put the crossover points where they will work best. The values depend upon the drivers characteristics. (resistance, inductance, frequency range, etc)


It also is typically designed so the the output level of the different drivers is matched based on their relative efficiency. (so the woofers play at the same volume as the midrange and tweeters)


If the universal crossover has the crossover points at those that match your drivers, and if your drivers are matched in efficiency, then it might work for you.


Since there are programs that model crossovers, If Radio Shack provides a schematic, I would model it with my specific drivers and see if it would be suitable.


I can tell you one thing. It will probably be better than running the woofer full range and using a single non-polarized electrolytic capacitor as the "crossover" for the tweeter that I've seen used in most of the less expensive speakers I've taken apart in my youth. But, unless very very lucky, it will not be as good as a crossover designed for your specific drivers.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

Anymore to report on the break-in of the fronts and center speakers?

jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


The speakers have broken in nicely. My wife and I are very happy with how they sound. Currently, we are using them with one of the PartsExpress budget 10" DLS subwoofers. (In my case, it was *yery* budget, as I only paid $20 for it at the Dayton Hamvention last year...It was not functional, but a 20 cent resistor in the plate amp fixed that)


I'm working crazy hours this next week or so. We are doing a massive data conversion project that we figure will start this evening at 8PM and finish on the 27th. With any luck, I'll be able to get a bit of time during the daylight hours to be able to cut some MDF for the Audax Rear speakers and some speaker stands.


Soon after that, I'll be building a sonosub. (Adire 15 inch Tempest driver)


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Well JL,

I now have the same problem and I'm going back...again, to Home Depot to buy a sanding drum to widen the rabbit.

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by J. L._
> *Well... it was a bit harder than I expected, but... the drivers can now be flush mounted.
> 
> 
> I ran into a tiny snag when using my router to flush mount my drivers in my DIY Audax HT Left/Right speakers. It appears that the hole in the front of the cabinet was just about 1/8th inch smaller than I would have liked. It still fit the driver with plenty of room to spare, but when I used a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit, it turned out the flange of the speaker did not fit in the resulting opening.
> 
> 
> I ended up using a sanding drum in my cordless drill to open the rabbet up a bit wider so the speakers would fit. I follow that with some hand sanding to make things look a bit more even... IT took a bit more time than I expected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, everything is ready for the veneer. The crossovers are mounted and wired, the front edges rounded over, and everything sanded smooth.
> 
> 
> I hope it is worth it. It put me a few hours behind my self imposed schedule... (I wanted to get these done before Christmas)
> 
> 
> J. L.
> 
> I will hear the difference flush mounting makes... I know I will...*


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Well, the rabbets are finally cut. My 1/2" rabbeting bit when used with the driver hole sizes in the directions didn't cut enough out for the driver flanges. I tried to use my Dremel Tool with a sanding disc but that didn't have enough oomph. So, I traced the outline of the flange and used a new 1/4" straight cut bit and did it free-hand. Fortunately, I have a variable speed router so I could control it better. I have a few spots that were off a little but after the drivers are permanently mounted, I can add a little caulk and it won't be noticeable.


----------



## J. L.

From what I can see, the flange on the woofers measures just a bit under 6 7/8ths inches in diameter.


If both Jeff and I accurately followed the PDF plans, then the hole we cut would have been 5 3/4 inches in diameter. Add 1 inch to that (1/2 in rabbet on two sides of the driver hole) and we get a rabbet about 6 3/4 inches diameter... and as we both found out, about 1/8th inch too small







.


So... for those following in our footsteps...

Jeff confirmed (the hard way) that the published hole sizes for the Audax HT woofers may be about 1/8 inch too small if you intend to flush mount the woofers by use of a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit.

*If you intend to use a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit in your router to cut the rabbet, and subsequently trim the veneer, then instead of cutting 5 3/4 inch diameter holes for the woofers, make them 5 7/8ths inch.*


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Exactly! I forgot to mention that it was 1/8" too small.

Jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

Did you stuff the interior of the center channel with addtional polyfil or did you only use the egg-crate foam? I have both in the sub-enclosure but didn't see anything about the main cabinet.

Jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

OK, I've been playing the center for approx 4-hrs now. I haven't attached the top or sealed it or put the polyfil in the mid/tweeter enclosure and it is sitting on the floor. I did place the lid on top and the first thing I noticed when compared to my small Energy center channel is the sound is much bigger. I don't know if it is any clearer, but definitely bigger. I discovered that I had the two woofers actually wired to the midrange crossover when one wasn't working. The midrange was also wrong and connected to the woofer crossover. I made the corrections and now everything is working properly (I hope). More to come...

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


I used both the egg-crate foam and fiberfill in the sub-enclosure.


I only used the egg-crate foam in the outer woofer enclosure and left the one side I attached the crossovers to uncovered as per the plans.


I think sealing the sub-enclosure will make a big difference. So will getting it off the floor. Most of your treble is way below ear level. (unless you too are laying on the floor) Glad to see your speaker coming along.


I just came in from outside. I cut most of the pieces for the front stands. I'll probably glue the columns tonight and then attach the tops and bottoms tomorrow. Stay tuned for pictures.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Thanks JL,

That's the same way I assembled mine.

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by J. L._
> *Jeff,
> 
> 
> I used both the egg-crate foam and fiberfill in the sub-enclosure.
> 
> 
> I only used the egg-crate foam in the outer woofer enclosure and left the one side I attached the crossovers to uncovered as per the plans.
> 
> 
> I think sealing the sub-enclosure will make a big difference. So will getting it off the floor. Most of your treble is way below ear level. (unless you too are laying on the floor) Glad to see your speaker coming along.
> 
> 
> I just came in from outside. I cut most of the pieces for the front stands. I'll probably glue the columns tonight and then attach the tops and bottoms tomorrow. Stay tuned for pictures.
> 
> 
> Joe L.*


----------



## J. L.

Had the opportunity to cut some more MDF this past weekend. While I was primarily interesting in cutting the pieces I need for the Audax HT Rear speakers, I took advantage of the nice weather to make a few additional cuts for the pieces needed for speaker stands to hold my front right and left channel speakers.


I wanted stands that will compliment the speakers. I found several web-pages showing what others had done for their DIY speakers and my wife and I decided on a design. (She rejected far more than she liked) The design is similar in some ways to the one I referred Jeff to in an earlier message.


First, the base is made of two 3/4 inch pieces of MDF glued together to make a 1 1/2 inch thickness.


As Norm Abram says, "you can never have enough clamps"










The column is a simple tube made of MDF. Here I have already removed most of the clamps (to use them on the base... I guess I do not have enough clamps... yet)










A bit of work with my belt sander and the edges look pretty decent. I also used the 1/2 inch roundover bit on my router to round over the front edges of the column and the top edges of the base. My wife thinks that I should veneer the columns to match the speakers... I'm considering it. Originally, I was going to simply use flat black lacquer. The veneer would really make the stands look like they belong to the speakers...










The stands are about 27 inches tall. This positions the tweeter on the front speakers at 40 inches from the floor; almost exactly at ear level when we are seated. It is also only about 6 inches below the center line of my screen.










Tonight I'll glue up the other stand. If I'm lucky, I'll get another chance to work outside later in the week to sand and round over its edges. In the meantime, I can start assembly of the rear speakers and think about how I want to finish the stands.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

Those stands appear to be very similar to the one's that I saw here in GA. You've done an excellent job.


FYI, I finally got the center channel veneered last night. It was my first venture into veneering and I ruined a 4x2 section because I didn't pay attention to the way the grain ran and when I tried to bend it over the rounded edges, it cracked:-( I was in a hurry and trying to pay attention to my wife and kids all at the same time. Then, there was the problem of removing what was already applied to the cabinet. It was after 1am this morning when I finished. I'll go back to working on the front speakers now. Looks like I'll have to buy another sheet of veneer.

The results are here:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/audax_center001.htm 

Jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

I have another question: My center and two fronts came with two pounds of fiberfill. The instructions for the center say lightly compressed fill in the sub-enclosure but nothing about the fronts. How much did you add to each cabinet?

Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


I put a handful of fiberfill at the top and bottom of the front speakers (lightly compressed) because I was concerned thet the longer internal dimension might enforce more standing waves within the cabinet. (remember, I made the enclosures about 4 inches longer and 2 inches less deep) It seemed to help.


The Audax plans do not specify any fiberfill in the front speakers at all. If anything, you could try both with and without and see which you prefer. I guess it depends on the efficiency of the acoustic foam in absorbing the backwave from the speakers.


It might warrant a call to madisound... they might have some advice.


Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof

O.K., I am trying to remember what the Vance Dickason book said about ported boxes, but I if I remember correctly, it said that minimal fill should be used in ported boxes. Acoustic foam is fine, as long as it doesn't impede the air flow, but fiberfill is normally not reccomended.


Anyone else read Vance's book? Does this sound right?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Thanks guys,

I sent an email to Madisound. Since these are ported, it makes sense that excessive fill could/would impede air flow. I just thought it strange that the center and two fronts included 1-lb of fiberfill each (1-lb for the center and 1-lb for the fronts). The center makes sense because it calls for lightly compressed fill in the sub-enclosure that houses the midrange and tweeter. It probably only comes in 1-lb bags but why did the fronts come with foam padding and fiberfill? There is absolutely no mention of using the fiberfill anywhere. Maybe someone from Madisound will get back to me.

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


I'll bet you I didn't even use 1/2 of a bag so far for all three speakers. (center, left & right)


I doubt you could stuff 1 lb of fiberfill in the sub-enclosure on the center and consider it "lighty compressed" It was probably less than 1/4 lb.


I'll be interested in the response you get from madisound.


Joe L.


----------



## darthopus

I think the reason that the center channel requires some polyfill is that the sub enclosure for the mid and tweet is sealed. It's only the woofer cabinet in the center that's ported.


At least that's my interpretation.


You guys are all making me jealous as you get to hear your wonderful creations right away. Where as I have to wait another 26 days until my house is done!


later,


Don


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys,

I got a quick response from Madisound...another reason to buy from them. Here it is: "Thank you for your email. When using the 2" foam, no additional fill is necessary"


jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Fellow speaker builders, I just weighed my Audax center channel and it came in at 47 pounds! I think that JL's will weigh even more since he doubled the rear panel thickness. I'm looking at the "Sound & Vision" 2003

Buyer's Guide. There are 119 pages of speakers listed. I'm quickly flipping through the pages and I haven't found a center channel yet that weighs this much. This just goes to show that these diy speakers are better built...that is if weight has anything to do with quality.


FYI, my entire Energy Take 5+1 weighs 45 pounds. I did find a couple of center channel speakers that weighed in over 40 pounds and they start at $1,400.

Jeff


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## J. L.

Jeff,


I checked with my 20 year old bathroom scale (not too sure of its accuracy), and the center channel weighed about 48 lbs. Left and right speakers weigh about 42 Lbs each.


Have you gotten a chance to do any more listening to your new center channel now that it is fully glued and veneered? I'm curious of your thoughts. I did not have a good center channel before I built the Audax Center, that made the improvement in sound quality far more dramatic. It should be easier for you to comment on how it compares to a commercial center channel.


I am really happy with how my speakers are sounding. My wife even more so. Where in the past, she occasionally would ask that I enable the subtitles in order to better follow the dialog, she made comment that the new DIY Audax HT speakers make it so much easier to hear dialog in the presence of other background sounds in the movies that she has not had any need to ask me to enable the subtitles.


It has been said that our DIY speakers would easily compare to those selling for 3 or 4 times our DIY expense. Clearly, at least comparing speakers by weight, that seems to be true.


Joe L.


----------



## Ryan Steagall

I'll have to spend tomorrow reading this whole post and getting caught up. Its quite a bit of reading!







The current center channel I have is an Infinity (something) that I bought several years ago and is WEAK compared to what I'm needing. Since I got a projector and about a 8' screen, the picture isn't matching the sound coming from the center channel if you know what I mean. I need a much more "grand" of a center channel to match the picture a little better. I've definitely noticed a lack of sound from my center channel. So....



I have a desire to build the Audax center channel with some slight modifications depending on some answers I get from you guys.


#1 Modification would be the construction of the enclosure. All internal dimensions, speaker configurations, and porting would remain the same. I saw a sub woofer design sometime ago (can't remember where) that was constructed by use of 3/4" mdf inside + 3/4" sand + 3/4" mdf outside. Let me explain this further. Every side (except the front where speakers mount) was composed of sandwiching 3/4" of regular playground sand between two pieces of 3/4" mdf which would result in each side being 2 1/4" thick. This was done by edging every edge of each mdf side with 3/4" strips and then filling the void with sand and putting the other piece of mdf on top of this securing it with glue and screws. This was done for resonance purposes. I'm not a speaker builder, but the design principle made sense and heck it just sounded like a pretty cool thing to do. Heh! Yes, I know this adds much to the construction process, but I believe it would be worth it and obviously would add to the "weight factor" mentioned above. (yes i know weight isn't everything)


#2 Modification would be replacing the Audax speakers with some higher end speakers of the same cone sizes. This of course would mean changing the crossover design appropriatly. I have NO experience in this at all. Speaker choice nor crossover design. This is the main part where I'm looking for guidance.







Is anyone up to the challenge of helping me choose some different speakers and doing a crossover design to reflect this. I don't think the enclosure should have to change any if we're using the same speaker cone sizes, but I could be wrong here. This modification would also mean that its not a true "Audax center channel" anymore. 


Now for some basic stuff that I just don't know and questions I have...


How exactly are power ratings for speakers compiked? I've noticed that this Audax center channel uses several speakers with varring nominal power ratings. If I have a receiver that is 100W per channel, I would obviously desire a speaker with a max of 100W+ worth of power handling. What is the max of this Audax Center channel? Do you just take the nominal power of each speaker in the system and add them together or what?


Please let me know if anyone wants to help with my design challenges or if you can guide me to a place that can help, that would be great too. I think the addition of the sand to the construction of this center channel would be interesting to see and hear.


Thanks!

Ryan


----------



## rosconey

can the sand, you don't need the over kill with a center, the 2 pcs of3/4 mdf will work fine.add tile inside if anything.

always remember kiss -keep it simple stupid- there are lots of great ideas but you cant always use them for your thing.

go lurk around the madisoud board there are a lot of guys who can help .

you cant just change drivers by size.

great drivers and bad crossover = crap speaker.

have your crossover done by a pro like rick craig at www.selahaudio.com 

or another pro.

he did my 3.5 way- from what you mention ask him about using the fast-est design for your center or at least the top end-scan speak tweeter and morel dome mid, they work great together.


----------



## Ryan Steagall

I don't think it would be that difficult to fill a void on 4-5 sides of the enclosure with some sand.







It would be an interesting project for sure and the story to tell would be even more interesting. I'd also be confident that it would definitely help tame any resonance. Maybe using a mortar mix or concrete mix to fill the void could even be better.


My main thing is that I'm seeing that this design has been proven to out preform many "run of the mill" products until you step up into a $1000+ center channel. THIS is what I'm looking for. I know that I've outgrown my current center channel and I am a diy enthusiast for sure! I don't have this $1000 to spend on a center channel. All I might be able to muster would be half of that and I believe This Audax design would beat anything that I could get for $500.


You say "great drivers and bad crossover = crap speaker." Well I don't know if I even know what great drivers are. With that said...


Can anyone answer a few of the basic questions that I had above? Especially the questions that I have concerning power ratings. Thanks!


----------



## SVonhof

Ryan, quick note on using different drivers. If you look for the parameters of the drivers, often noted as T/S but technically called the Theil/Small parameters, these numbers tell everything about the driver and what type of enclosure to use them in as well as sizes. The T/S parameters are based on the electrical/mechanical properties of the drivers and allow the designer to come up with a best guess on how to use the driver (sealed box, ported, bandpass....). That along with the frequency repsonse curve and the waterfall plot tells the whole story about the driver. Beyond that, it takes listening tests to see what you think of the driver.

If you are interested in trying this out, you should probably get Vance Dickason's book, The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook. It goes into all the aspects of designing and building speakers.


----------



## Ryan Steagall

Svonhof, thanks for the tip and info. I do already have a Loudspeaker Design book, but not the one that you mention (this one is old).


What is the exact RMS powerhandling of the Audax Center Channel? The speakers are all listed as different W raning around the 50W-60W Range. How is this calculated and what is this Audax Center Channel exactly? I'm concerned because my receiver is a Pioneer Elite VSX45TX and is 100W per channel. If the standard Audax setup will work fine with this receiver, then I may not need to change anything.


----------



## J. L.

Ryan,


The following quote is from this page http://www.audax.com/doit/us_ht02.shtml on the Audax web-site that describes the Audax Home Theater speakers.



> Quote:
> Realistic reproduction of movie sound tracks can require short term SPLs of 105-110dB. All of the individual speakers in the Audax home theater system can produce 105dB within their frequency range in typical size rooms. Their combined output capability easily exceeds 110dB. Sensitivity for the speakers in this system falls in the range of 87-88dB SPL/1w/1m. This translates to minimum amplifier power requirements of 100 per channel.



I am currently using an amplifier that is 15 watts per channel with the Audax center channel and it is plenty loud enough for movies. No, it will not get so loud that it is uncomfortable to listen to, but way more than enough to immerse myself in the soundtrack.... plenty loud enough to have made me jump when presented with an unexpected loud noise. You do not need 100 watts, but the Audax Center Channel can easily handle it.


You cannot simply add the power handling ratings of the different drivers in the enclosure, because the energy in a movie soundtrack is not evenly distributed between the drivers. Usually, there is far less energy at treble frequencies than at others, therefore, it is OK if the tweeter has less power handling capability.


With all that in mind, your 100 watt per channel receiver would do perfectly.


Joe L.


----------



## darthopus

I'm going to be building the Audax surrounds sometime in the next couple of months. I plan on maybe going to a 6.1 system. Does anyone know if it might be possible to convert the surrounds to a bipole design? Or even a pseudo design? My understanding is that you simply need to wire the speakers out of phase. Of course I'm sure that there is more to it than that. My Theater room is rather small at 10 x 13 x 9. Should I just build the surrounds as they are and have direct radiating speakers in the back and sides? I know Scott (Svonhof) uses that arrangment. I have heard his system and it sound quite impressive.


To be honest I'm not even sure if it would be worth it to go the 6.1 route with the size of my room. But any receiver I get in the next few months will more than likely have that capability anyway.


Ryan,


I think I have the answer to your question. Each speaker is rated at a certain wattage, but the inductors I believe, but may be wrong, split the power sent from the amp up into chunks that each speaker can handle. I have a recevier that puts out 100 watts per channel and my Audax mains handle it fine. The center channel has the same drivers. I know there are different impedence ratings on speakers and that can cause the speaker to draw more power, but that is beyond my knowledge.


As far as the sound goes, I have been to several different retailers that sell many types of speakers and the Audax mains that I built sound as good, if not better, then what I have heard. With the exception of the Martin Logans that I heard at Magnolia Hi-Fi. Of course those didn't sound $6 grand better than my Audax's.


----------



## Ryan Steagall

By replicating the Audax design, what price range of speaker do you think they compare to? Before I found this design and searched AVSForums for the design and got lead to this thread, I had been looking at Polk http://www.polkaudio.com/home/products.php?category=5 


Can anyone compare this Audax to any of these? Again I ask, with all the effort of building these and after they are completed, what price tag would this center compare to?


----------



## darthopus

I haven't compared them to the speakers you linked to unfortunately. I did however listen to the Klipsch reference speakers quite a bit at the local Good Guys before and after I built the Audax speakers. They sound just as good to my ears. This is saying a lot as I really like the sound of Klipsch speakers and almost bought them before stumbling across some DIY speaker sites. Of course you have to remember that speakers are very dependent upon the room and I haven't done any A/B comparisons aside from comparing it to my Sony center(see below).


I also listenened to some Definitive Technology speakers and the previously mentioned Martin Logans. I didn't listen as intentally as the Klipsch speakers, but the Audax came close to my ears. the Martin's did sound better, but I'm not sure if it was actually sounding better or just a placebo effect as I know they are about a fourth of my annual salary!


You will certainly be able to purchase speakers that sound better than the Audax, but not for any where near the price.


As for the center channel specifically I haven't had a chance to listen to it with my mains as they are in storage right now. However, before I moved I had a rather inexpensive Sony center flanked by the Audax mains. When I switched between Stereo and 5.1, the Audax Mains really brought out the weakness of the Sony. I mean the clarity and warmth these speakers put out is amazing. I really can't wait get into my new house so I can experience how well the center channel integrates into the system.


----------



## SVonhof

Don, the debate over 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 is on-going. My take on it is that if you have a small room, as you will, you will be fine with 5.1. Will you notice a difference between 5.1 and 6.1, possibly.


As far as making the regular surrounds into a bi-pole, you would need different crossovers to handle dual tweeters and then you could leave the midrange on the front panel with the tweeters on the sides. This of course means that you will have side surrounds and the rear center, which means you want to have the side speakers at ear distance from the front wall. If you are sitting against the back wall, that is no good, as the tweeter will fire directly into it.

That is my take on it.


----------



## darthopus

I think my solution is to just build the surrounds as they are and then put my current surrounds as the rear speakers when I upgrade my receiver. If there is a noticeable difference then great. If there isn't, then oh well. Nothing really lost.


I need the new receiver anyway to handle componenent switching. The 6.1 is just extra.


Now I need to just get a height channel decoder. Just kidding!


----------



## Jeff Hovis

darthopus,

That is what I'm doing. I have a set of Energy speakers and I'm using them as surrounds and rear speakers. I actually have five Energy Take 5 speakers, an Energy center and an Energy 8" 100w sub. I may try to buy one more Take 5 and have four surrounds and two rear channels. I could also use four of the Take 5s as surrounds and use the old center channel as a rear speaker. My two Audax front channel speakers will be finished by Saturday and my center was done last week. At this time, I don't have any plans to replace the Energy speakers in the rear because they are perfect for that job. I just need to find a use for the old subwoofer because I also recently completed a 250 watt 15" sonosub.

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by darthopus_
> *I think my solution is to just build the surrounds as they are and then put my current surrounds as the rear speakers when I upgrade my receiver. If there is a noticeable difference then great. If there isn't, then oh well. Nothing really lost.
> 
> 
> I need the new receiver anyway to handle componenent switching. The 6.1 is just extra.
> 
> 
> Now I need to just get a height channel decoder. Just kidding!*


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hi guys,

I've got another question: The 3" port tubes are supposed to be 5.25" long. the rear panel is .75" thick and the baffle is 1" thick. Does that count as 1.75" of the overall port length? The distance from the front of the baffle to the outside of the rear panel is also 5.25". Both ends of the port are supposed to be rounded. Does that mean that I should use my good carbided tipped router bit on the PVC tube, or can I cut the PVC tube 1" shorter and just round the front of the baffle and the rear panel?

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


I asked exactly the same question on the Parts Express message board when I was building my center channel. It was even more appropriate since I had a thicker rear panel.


The answer was that it is the total length that matters.


The port tube, in my case, would extend less into the enclosure since more of it was within the 1 1/2 inch thick rear panel than in the original plans with a 3/4 inch rear panel. In your case, the rear panel and baffle count as 1.75" of the overall port length.


I did the center different than the L/R speakers. For the center channel, I had a very thick walled cardboard tube that I used for the port. (it came free inside the bolt of fabric I used for my theater)


I cut it flush with the outer wall of the enclosure and used my roundover bit to make the transition. Here is a picture:









If you look real close you can see that I left about a 1/16th inch rabbet on the outermost edge of the port flair. That allowed me to trim the veneer cleanly around the port. If the roundover was flush with the rear panel, I don't think it wiuld have been as easy to make the veneer look as good around the port.


I used PVC tube on the L/R. There, they do not go all the way through the panels, they only go about 1/4 inch into the panel. The roundover is therefore only on the MDF.


I would think you could use the router to round over the PVC as I did with the cardboard tube. Just keep the bit moving as to not melt the PVC.. (that could make a mess)


Joe L.


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## Jeff Hovis

Thanks Joe,

So at least my current tube is correct. I assumed that it was total length and made it that way. I've got to do something about the PVC edge. I currently have rounded ports but then there is the end of the PVC which makes it look like a rabbeted step. If I could only find some really thin plastic tubing that is 3" ID. I'm ready to play these things and I've still got approx 8' of 3" PVC, so I'll get the router out and try to round the edges.

Thanks again,

Jeff


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## Ryan Steagall

Has anyone thought of adding the technology to the ports like Polk does with a "cone type thingy" pointing into the port?


Does anyone manufacture devices like this? I've never seen them on parts express. The piece is made of hard plastic and from what I understand, its supposed to smoothe out frequency response and disperse the lows. If no one manufactures this, I guess it would take someone that knows a bit about molding plastics to accomplish such a thing.


Also, another thing concerning port tubes, has anyone thought to use an adjustable port tube? I'll bet this could be taken and modified to adjust from 3" to 7" or so and give some user configuration to this center channel.


----------



## SVonhof

Ryan, I think you are obsessed with Polks!

I am not sure what that thing does, except possibly slow down some of the air and also re-direct it so that you can have the speaker close to/or against a wall.


----------



## Ryan Steagall

hehe. Not obsessed, I just almost bought one before I saw this Audax DIY Center Channel and I was looking to maybe add this "technology" to this center channel. I suggest you read here at polk's website to decide for yourself. Or maybe a google search? 


Its a simple design, but if the technology is true, I don't see why you wouldn't want this on any ported speaker.


After all DIY is taking a little knowledge from here and there and putting it all together to #1 have an entertaining time making it and #2 trying to accomplish and surpass designs others have made (manufactured or individually).


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


Actually, I did not use PVC pipe in the Front L/R speakers, instead, I saw 3 inch diameter plastic port tubes on sale for 69 cents at MCM Electronics (in a flyer they sent to me in the mail) Since I was placing an order anyway with them for some transistors and other parts, I included two in the order. I did this before I had even started on the Front speakers.


It turned out they did not have a flared end, so I simply flared my MDF, cut the length of tube I needed from them with my hacksaw, and used them between the rear panel and the inner support baffle.


They were thin walled as you desired.


You might check Parts-Express if you want to wait for a delivery. Shipping costs might be high if you are only ordering port tubes though.


If you are ready to finish up your front speakers, then the router is probably your best bet. It sounds like you have some PVC to experiment on.


Joe L.


----------



## eameres

Sorry if this is not quite the right thread for this, but it sounds like a lot of the participants have had some experience with the audax HT DIY system.


I'm thinking of going that route as well, but would it be a sin to use the L&R front speakers lying down rather than upright? My proscenium design definitely lends itself to that orientation. Would I be better off using a pair of the center speakers as left and right? That sounds a little scary.


Eric.


----------



## jmiyake

It would be a bad idea to lay the front speakers down.

Most center speakers don't sound very good anyway. A lot of this is due to the horizontal orientation.

You should have the speakers near ear height.

They should be vertically aligned, if at all possible.

If you lay them down the will probably not sound very good.

Using 3 centers would be better than laying down a LR speaker. Notice that the tweeter and mid are vertically aligned at least.


James


----------



## SVonhof

Sorry to bring up his book again, but Vance Dickason has some charts on off-axis response from positioning various style speaker cabinets in horizontal and vertical positions and the one with the least amount of distortion was one that was MTM and vertically mounted. It has to do with the typical dispersion pattern from the drivers.

In my book, it is in the "Home Theater Loudspeakers" chapter, page 150, Fifth edition.


This leads me to beleive that since the center channel speaker is designed to sit horizontal, it should be used for the front three speakers if they all have to be horizontaly mounted. Make sure you can get the speakers up as high as possible though, so the sound doesn't all come from below the screen.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by J. L._
> *I've seen frequency response plots of MTM (midwoofer-tweeter-midwoofer) designed speakers when horizontally orientated and off-axis In one case(I'll try to find the link), the critical midrange was over 10 db down, in another, they talked about it being 18 db down at 2000Hz when 30 degrees off axis. (right in the middle of the frequency range for speech) In this example , the builder measured the off-axis response of the MTM style center speaker he had built and supplied a response curve graph . Ouch... most of the midrange is over 10 to 15 db down off axis. His own comment was "Yuck! Look at how bad the off-axis response of a horizontal MTM is! This is why no one in their right mind would use this design for a center
> 
> channel."
> 
> 
> Talk about making it hard to follow the dialog in a movie if you are not seated directly on axis. One of the major reasons I choose the design I did as I only have one seat in my theater that is "on-axis". The audax web-site stated that the frequency response for their design was flat within a few db even when off axis.*



An earlier message in this thread included the above text. In the unlikely event that you do not care about the quality of the critical midrange when listened to off axis, then lay the speakers down. (When it comes to the L/R front speakers, you are ALWAYS off axis to at least one of them, and usually to both)


My advice, do not use an MTM design. Three Audax center channel speakers would be just fine as the midrange/tweeter are vertically aligned even when the enclosure is sitting horizontally below the screen.


Sorry to find that the links above no longer work.. ... Now they do. I fixed them!


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Today, I finished my two Audax front channel speakers. I connected them along with my center to have a listen. I wanted something that had a lot of dialog and lots of action at the same time. I chose Saving Private Ryan. The rusults are VERY good! I think I had good speakers with which to compare them in the Energy Take 5s. First, the dialog is very nice and clear in the center. I could really hear and understand other people in the background much better. The two fronts, I noticed even more. The misc sounds of battle all around were much clearer as were the other voice sounds. The nice thing is there is no cheap boominess or hollow sound. When someone speaks, you hear it. When they stop, the speaker stops. I also put in a CD, The Marriage of Figaro, by Mozart. This is where the Energy speakers fall short. For $900, the Energy speakers are a really good buy on a small, inexpensive speaker but they are for HT and not music. These, although specifically designed for HT were more musical and sounded better...even in Italian, which I don't understand. I've been frantically picking up and cleaning the HT room so we can give them a real test tonight.

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


I am really happy that you are pleased with your DIY Audax Home Theater speakers. I would have felt really bad if they did not perform as well as your Energy 5.1 speakers. You must be very proud of your new DIY speakers. Just wait till they break in a bit. They get even better!


I feel like it was my descriptions of my experiences making sawdust out of MDF and my project pictures that convinced you to try the Audax project over some of the others you were considering several months ago. In return, I will be building a sonosub... following in your footsteps.


I can't wait till you get some pictures of your new Front speakers posted on your web-site.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL, you are THE one who convinced me to try the Audax. I was going to build the Adire 281s which are also great speakers. They were a little larger than I wanted and also a little more expensive. I'm very happy with these. However, I'm not happy with my center channel woofer rabbets that I cut. As I'm sure you know I/you had to enlarge the mounts for the flanges the hard way. I did mine free hand with a router and since I know it's flawed, I see it everytime I look at the speaker. In spring, I think I'm going to build a new center channel cabinet. the other thing I did twice today was punch the tweeter with a screwdriver. It has a small dent in the dome but sounds the same as before. I'm going to replace it just for piece of mind. I still have to veneer and stain them and build the stands. Here are some pictures of the fronts:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/audax...peakers001.htm 

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


I love the "custom stands."

(eventually, your wife will want them back, I imagine)


You might be able to use your router to "salvage" your cabinet and not have to re-build the entire thing come springtime.


You might be able to add another layer of 1/2 inch MDF to the front, re-cut holes in it, make it 1/4 inch bigger in width and almost as high so you can use your router to then trim it even. Hardest part will be making the transition to the rounded edge. I'll bet you can simply make it look like a much larger radius on the edge.


Or... you could cut a new "inlay" out of 1/4 inch MDF, cut the same 1/4 inch from the front of your current cabinet, glue it in place, sand it smooth with your existing front, cut the new driver holes, and then re-veneer. If nothing else, it might be simpler than re-building the entire cabinet.


On the other hand, if you enjoy the smell of sawdust... go for it.. I know I am getting better at this speaker building stuff as I go.... I'm sure you are too.


Enjoy the sound, turn down the lights so you don't focus on the rabbets, and enjoy a movie or two...


Joe L.


----------



## Jay Wilson

I'm posting this question in two threads hoping that I will get more of a variety of answers.


I have really enjoyed reading the progress you guys have made in your speaker building quests. This is something i have always wanted to try, but have a really decent front soundstage already. I've always wanted a set of dipole surrounds, and wanted to try my hand at diy, but could never find any plans for these.


Then, through this thread, you led me to the Zalytron site and I am assembling the components to build their set of surround speakers. I have also a renewed interest in a diy sub.


Here is my question: My screen sits out from the wall about 24". I am about to build a set of base cabinets/stage to go under the screen. They will be used predominately for storage. I will have the L/R speakers an either side of the screen, and some curtains to come up next to the mains. What I am left with is a 45 x 80 x 2' deep pocket behind the screen. What would you guys think of a sonotube sub laid sideways? I am thinking of a large one (maybe two







) larger subs, and this would be a really logical place as it is "unused." Any design challenges or other concerns goign horizontally?


Thanks for the input!


----------



## J. L.

Your otherwise unused space would be a great spot for a subwoofer. (I don't think you would need two)


Your idea of a sonosub on its side would probably work great. A 15 inch driver in a 18 inch diameter tube would fit in the two feet of depth you described.


Another idea would be a sub of more conventional construction, but unconventional orientation like this example from the Parts Express project showcase:
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/whtsub.htm 


Joe L.


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## Jeff Hovis

There is a guy who made a sonosub and made the endcaps into legs so it could lay on it's side. He then turned it into a coffee table. I'm still looking for his site.

Jeff


----------



## Dave_Van

Jeff,

I've been surfing around for Sonosub and Audax Center channel to round out my HT design. Ran across this - a sonosub as a coffee table!

http://www.geocities.com/manurescape...l?981609316640


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Dave,

I think that is the one I saw. Jay, that is an example of a sonosub on it's side. Thanks to Dave for finding it.

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

It has been a few weeks since I posted new pictures illustrating progress I've made on the Audix Home Theater speakers. Between work and tasks around the house, I have not had many opportunities to make sawdust.


Thanks to a few warm days here in North Carolina, I was able to set up the sawhorses in the driveway and cut the MDF pieces I needed for the Audix Rear channels. Once the pieces were cut, I was able to go back indoors and start the assembly process.


Here I have started to glue the rear enclosures. Again, as Norm Abram says "You can never have enough clamps." I found I could only glue one enclosure at a time as I only have 8 clamps long enough to clamp across the enclosure.










I glued a second layer of MDF to the front of the enclosures, rounded over the front edges, and then trimmed everything flush with my flush-trimming bit in the router (it was originally cut about 1/8th inch oversize). Since I already had cut the inner front panel for the drivers, I simply drilled a 1/2 inch starting hole, inserted the 1/4 inch flush-trimming bit from the router and followed the inner panel cutout. (the bit has a small ball-bearing to guide it)


This time I had made the woofer opening 1/8th inch larger than originally specified in the Audax plans. I was then able to use my 1/2 inch rabbeting bit in the router to cut a 1/4 inch deep rabbet that will allow me to flush mount the woofer. (Both Jeff Hovis and I found this step to be much harder on our Front enclosures. By cutting the driver opening 1/8th inch larger, it was a breeze)











Next steps will be to glue the acoustic foam to the insides, mount and wire the crossovers, and apply the veneer.


Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof

Joe, it doesn't look like you used any screws. Since the construction techniques I used are completely different than yours, different materials as well, is it reccomended not to use screws, but just glue? BTW, nice way to use the tools you have to make life easier with the 1/8" larger hole to allow the rabbeting bit to work for the c-bore.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Joe,

They look great! I learned so much from the center and two fronts. I've now got the fever to build more. As I told my wife, I now know why good speakers cost so much.

Jeff


----------



## jmiyake

The rarest of things. A man with enough clamps.

No average Joe.


James


----------



## J. L.

Scott,


You are correct.


When I constructed the Center and Front speakers, I only had four clamps large enough to clamp across the enclosure. For that reason, I used screws to hold the enclosure while I moved the clamps as needed. I had to take some time to countersink and then fill the screw holes. I used two drills, one with a countersink bit, the other with a screwdriver bit during the assembly process. Later, after the glue was dry, I used wood-patch to fill the countersunk screw holes.


I had picked up four additional 18 inch clamps around Christmas. Since the Rear enclosure was small enough to clamp in all dimensions, and since I had more clamps, I used only glue. (I don't have any patching of screw-holes to do... Yea.) This time, I saved a day or so waiting for the wood-patch to dry. Construction is going quicker.


And yes... the glue alone is plenty strong enough for this size enclosure. (Probably stronger than the MDF itself)


Jeff..

The flush mount rabbet was really easy (this time). I did have to drill a new hole for the pivot on my circle cutting jig.


I can understand your desire to continue building speakers... Have you made any progress on finishing your Front and Center speaker enclosures? Please... post pictures when you are able. Did you decide on a color for the finish?


I agree... It is easy to see why good speakers cost so much. Imagine shipping costs (MDF is very heavy) on top of markups and everything else.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

I finished the two fronts in Rosewood with Clear Satin Polycrylic. It makes a nice smooth finish that isn't too shiy. I placed them directly at the front corners of my screen and watched two movies. The speakers didn't reflect any light. The Rosewood looks so good that I'm probably going to use it on the center. I may still go with a black finish, but I'm leaning toward the wood now. BTW, I noticed that this thread has over 10,800 views.


Oh, I also used either screws or brads from my brad nailer and air compressor along with Titebond II.

Jeff


----------



## robtec88

By Jeff Hovis:



> Quote:
> The rusults are VERY good! I think I had good speakers with which to compare them in the Energy Take 5s. First, the dialog is very nice and clear in the center. I could really hear and understand other people in the background much better. The two fronts, I noticed even more. The misc sounds of battle all around were much clearer as were the other voice sounds. The nice thing is there is no cheap boominess or hollow sound. When someone speaks, you hear it. When they stop, the speaker stops. I also put in a CD, The Marriage of Figaro, by Mozart. This is where the Energy speakers fall short. For $900, the Energy speakers are a really good buy on a small, inexpensive speaker but they are for HT and not music. These, although specifically designed for HT were more musical and sounded better...even in Italian, which I don't understand.



That's exactly the way I would describe the Audax HT set I built! I'm happy to hear the project is working out for you. I don't think there's anything more satisfying (audio/video related) than creating your own speakers and getting sound that rivals some of the mid-range brand-names. I've had my set complete now, for almost a year and I look forward to every new movie that comes out and any new CD I buy, just to hear them with these speakers.


I took a look at your website - Keep up the good work, you won't regret it...I promise!


To Joe L:


You've been very active with your Audax HT speakers as well. I had a look at your pictures, too - impressive! I like that blackened oak. I can tell you're having a "blast" working on them, just as I did mine. I couldn't wait to get home from work and get out to the garage to continue construction. That's the way a project like this should be approached - have fun and learn from it - the rewards are there in the end.


Keep cutting guys!


My Audax HT's, if you're interested:

http://members.rogers.com/robbrenda/...to_gallery.htm 


Cheers,


Rob N.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Rob N,

Thanks for the comments. I looked at your site and I'm sooo glad you explained those front channel speakers. Those are VERY nice! They must weigh 75 pounds each. I plan to build my stands this weekend. I purchased more MDF yesterday at Home Depot.

Jeff


----------



## Addicted Help!!




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElvisIncognito_
> *I used to be the sole proprietor of Masterpiece Speakerworks, a small loudspeaker company in the SF Bay Area. After a couple of years, I closed up shop, though, because nothing I could engineer could ever sound as sweet (to my ears) as a good planar-magnetic (e.g. Magneplanars, which I currently own) or full-range ribbon (e.g. Apogee) (And, yes, Virginaia, though it pains me to say it, even the Carver "Amazing Loudspeaker" kicks the @ss of any cone-based or electrostatic speaker - at least to my ears.)
> 
> 
> That said, the only dynamic/cone-based speakers that I could never out-engineer were those designed by Mike Dzurko at Audio Concepts. Dzurko's brilliance at subwoofer design outshines anyone - with all due apologies to Velodyne owners. (WHEW! Opening myself up for LOTS of flames on THIS post! *LOL*)
> 
> 
> Now, when you say, "Very High Quality", you could mean a lot of different things, because "quality" is, itself, highly subjective. Perhaps you want to build speakers that sound "as good as Bose"... but for the sake of this post, I'll use my own standard of "Very High Quality".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You also make no mention of price/cost - you may be looking toward kits because of budget constraints, but then again you may also just want the pleasure of crafting your own speakers. I'll make no assumptions there.
> 
> 
> Mike Dzurko's Jaguars are truly exceptional. Unfortunately, I believe Audio Concepts may have stopped offering them in kit form (though you may be able to work something out with Mike.) Beyond that, numerous good-to-very good kits are available from Solen Electronique, Madisound. (I've had dealings with both and have always found the folks at Madisound to be tremendously pleasant and helpful.)
> 
> 
> Though I'm not a big fan of Audax drivers (Eton, ScanSpeak, Focal, and Dynaudio - in that order - would be my choices), J. L. does have the right idea - D'Appolito's MTM design, (which has its own compromises from a pure audio standpoint) is an excellent choice for HT due to its off-axis response. I'm not sure how well it lends itself to a bi-pole design for rear channels, though. If anyone out there is currently using an MTM bi-pole for the rears, please post your comments. I'm genuinely interested.*



I don't make speakers, hell I just am not good with that kind of stuff, but I always follow these threads because I wish I could, but I do test the living crud out of all my audio and video purchases and when I picked a sub it was 4 years ago and my criteria were 800 to 1800 and at least 120 watts, and that was basically it. I tested more than 10 units and off all the units that were known and commonly used units, I found the Velodyne to be the most over rated of them all. They had great bass, a remote which most didn't at that time, but they seemed to have terrible crossover, and they over based in most situations because they were like Bruce Willis in every movie, except his issue is he has only 2 looks, while their deal, was they only have one type of bass. I found some woofers were good on music, some on movies, some on neither but the Velodyne when for example a guy would tell his wife that the maid was having his baby, and there was the pause with just low bass, it would sound exactly the same as when a plane crashed, and that was a big problem for me.


That model was going from memory I believe the FSR line, but I have not tested any since then and never heard above that $1200 model. I ended up with the M&K MX150 and I really like the crossover and musical imagery, but I must admit on the massive low bass scenes like Fugitive plane crash, it isn't as deep on bass as the Velodyne or a few others, and I think I really should have gone with the MX350 for 800 more, but at that time I lived in an apartment and even the 150 was not allowed to be really jacked.


----------



## robtec88

Thanks Jeff.


Yes, I would estimate that the fronts weigh about 75lbs and they are [email protected] busters to lift! On the plus side - they're very stable.


I'm going to be updating my website pictures soon (hopefully by the end of Feb.) because I've since gotten rid of the oak entertainment center w/ 27" TV and now have myself a Hitachi 43FWX20B RPTV, for some widescreen lovin'. The pictures will show the shelf I built to hold that "heavy horse of a center channel" speaker, above the TV.


Don't be shy with the camera. Take some more pictures of your progress and post 'em, I'll be watching for them.


Cheers,


Rob N.


----------



## Dangus

For those still interested in seeing the Audax site, and also for those who can speak French. Their French page is still up at http://www.audax.fr you could always babblefish it.


----------



## BIGmouthinDC

Also English page up if you haven't been there there is a lot of eye candy with 5 different DIY designs with 10 different speakers to look at:

the Joe D'appolito Home theater with L/R, Center, Surround, and Sub.

2 Vance Dickason designs

1 Noel Keywood from England

a Sat/Sub design from France

and a Center channel form France.

www.audax.com 

All show cabinets and Crossovers


----------



## the bomber

Wasn't sure if anyone was interested but I built these speakers using dynaudio drivers (not available anymore







).


The tweeters are estotech D-260 and the woofers are 17WLQs. The enclosures are made from hi quality MDF. The sides and backk are 1 inch thick and the bafle is 1.5 inches thick. They were veneered with curly cherry (rare). The bases are Bubinga.


Bomber


----------



## the bomber

OOOps...forgot the front view!


----------



## jmiyake

Very nice Bomber.

How did you veneer the rounded corners?

Where did you put the seam(s)?

What type of veneer and cut was it?


Morel tweeters are a nice sustitute to the Dynaudios.

I always liked the D-260's and the 17cm woofers. However they were very expensive.

I actually Like the Scan Speak 9300 even better than the D-260, but there is no direct equivalent to the Dynaudio Woofers. I like the Vifa PL series, but the Dynaudio's had such great power handling.


James


----------



## the bomber

James,


I love your speakers. I wish I could hear them, I bet they're breath taking. Thanks for the compliment and the advise on drivers!


I know the pictures aren't the best but the corners are actually beveled. I routed a 1/2 inch square rabbit into all of the corners before I veneered the enclosures. I then glued a 1/2" square section of bubinga in the rabbit and sanded it flush. I then veneered the cabinets and planned off the corners which exposed the bubinga underneath.


I was lucky enough to find this veener in 13 inch wide sheets so there aren't any seems. The veneer is curly cherry and I believe it's plain sawn. It was attached with hide glue and a vaccumm press.


I love the Dynaudio drivers and in fact the L/C/R speakers in my Theater are dynaudio MTM designs. I didn't photograph them because they are behind speaker grills so they are the raw MDF. No sense in wasting good veneer. It's good to know that there are equivalent drivers still available.


Bomber


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey bomber,

Those speakers are gorgeous! Are those your own design?

Jeff


----------



## the bomber

Jeff,



Yes and no. The outward design is completely my own. The box design is based on the Dynaudio approved Serius design. I upgraded the woofer from the spec'd 17W75 to the 17wLQ. This change put a small spike in the impedance curve so I have to increase the volume. I did this by making the speaker slightly taller and wider. In addition, I wanted a stiffer baffle so I increased the thickness to 1.5" from 1" and that increased the overall depth of the speaker.



Thanks for the compliment.



Bomber


----------



## the bomber

Jeff,



Yes and no. The outward design is completely my own. The box design is based on the Dynaudio approved Serius design. I upgraded the woofer from the spec'd 17W75 to the 17wLQ. This change put a small spike in the impedance curve so I have to increase the volume. I did this by making the speaker slightly taller and wider. In addition, I wanted a stiffer baffle so I increased the thickness to 1.5" from 1" and that increased the overall depth of the speaker.



Thanks for the compliment.



Bomber


----------



## jmiyake

Bomber said: I love your speakers. I wish I could hear them

_________________________________


Hi Bomber,

thanks. I have just finished tweaking and fine tuning the crossover and the voicing.


They sound great, and have met my grandest expectations. The sound stage is huge. The sound is fast, detailed and effortless. They are very dynamic, and have fabulous punch.


On the compromise end, the imaging is not as pinpoint as the better point source speakers. Also the design has very little deep bass. This is as designed, yet one can't help but expect bass from such large speakers, and the design does not provide that. This is why I have subwoofers.


Now I just need to apply the veneer and finish. Thanks for you descriptions on your finish.


James


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Calling JL:

How are the speakers? It's been a while since anyone has posted any build progress. I actually built my stands on Sat and Sunday. I have veneered the center stand and will try to get the other two finished sometime this week. I'll post some pics soon.

jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


This past Saturday I had the opportunity to start the veneering on the rear speakers. Unfortunatly, I have been very busy with work and it has been hard to find time to do anything.


I'll try to get a picture or two posted as I start finishing them.


Joe L.


----------



## Jassen

First let me say hello, i just registered.


now J.L. i have been following this thread and i just started glueing my own set of audax fronts, i have a couple of questions i hope you may be able to answer. my kit came with regular foam and a bag of polyfil. should i use that or get some egg crate foam? also it looks like there is no foam under or around your crossovers is there foam directly opposite the crossovers? also, i don't solder the drivers and tweeter to the wires right?


thanks,


jassen


----------



## robtec88

Originally quoted by Jassen:


"also, i don't solder the drivers and tweeter to the wires right?"


Correct! Don't solder the wires to the drivers - in most cases, this will VOID any warranty you might have with the drivers. I use the usual female spade connector to attach to my drivers but I 'snug' them up a little with a pair of pliers, so they have a slight friction fit. I do however, solder all my female connectors to their wire (I hate relying on just a crimp fit!).


Keep building - you won't regret it. They sound great - especially at their price point (IMHO).


robtec88


----------



## Jassen

Thanks,, this is also my first time reading a crossover schematic and it looks like i should have one positive lead coming from the tweeter and one positive lead coming from the driver both connecting to the positive connector on the input cup, same with the negative, one from the driver and one from the tweeter to the negative on the input cup. Since using a female spade connector is the way to go i assume there will be enough room to attach both wires(positive or negative) to the one connector and then slide it on to the appropriate input cup connector.


thanks again


----------



## J. L.

jassen,


You have good eyes... There is no acoustic foam on one side of each speaker. (the side the crossovers is mounted on) There *is* foam on the side opposite the crossovers. This is by design and is mentioned in the plans on the audax.com web site.


I emailed Joe D'Appolito and asked if the reason for leaving off the foam on one side was to make mounting the crossovers easier.


He replied that the reason was so the cabinet would not be over-damped. (it had nothing to do with crossover mounting ease)


I found a package of quick connect terminals at the local Auto Zone parts store. They needed a slight loosening (as opposed to the tightening that robtec88 did to his) otherwise they were so snug I was afraid to push hard enough to put them on the speakers. I did not want to break the speaker terminals.


I too soldered the terminals to the ends of the wires.


I seem to remember that Jeff Hovis had the same question about the foam and fiberfill. Look back a few messages and you should find it. He was told by the folks at madisound.com that the thinner foam in combination with the fiberfill was equivalent to the thicker eggcrate foam. If you want eggcrate foam, you can pick up a foam mattress pad from Walmart like I did for about $14.


Keep us informed as you build your speakers... we'd love to see pictures. (hint...hint)


Joe L.


PS.

I soldered the wires to the input cup. There is plenty of room to attach the multiple sets of wires there.


----------



## Jassen

sorry to be asking so much so quickly but, how about reverse flush mounting? instead of rabbeting into to MDF if i veneer the front with a layer of wood thats about the same thickness as would be the depth of the rabbet. this would also make the front baffle thicker but that shouldn't be a problem, right?


thanks


ps - i don't have a digital camera so i'll have to take pictures the "old fashion" way and scan them in


----------



## SVonhof

Jassen, I just found out yesterday that for an extra, minimal, charge, even Wal Mart will scan the images and put them on CD or on a secure web site so you can get them.


----------



## darthopus

After moving in to my new house a month ago it seemed as if every weekend required my wife and I to go somewhere or unpack something.


This past Sunday I was able to start finishing my Audax center and start on the Sonosub. Of course wouldn't you know that as soon as I started to go to the garage Sunday afternoon, my wife's friend and her husband show up. That ate up a good two hours.


I was able to get the caps cut and glued for the sub, as well as, the center channel holes and seems puttied. I don't get to use veneer like I had planned due to a couple of unforeseen financial emergencies. I'm going to have to try and get the mdf as smooth as possible so I can either laquer or paint it. I'll let you know how it turns out as I think I can get this done this weekend. No more money for painting the house, at least until my wife gets paid next week, so I'm free to work. Assuming my son is no longer sick by then.


I'm really itching to get this done as my current sub seems so puny after seeing the size of the sonotube.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jassen,

I also built the LCR from Audax. I substituted egg-crate foam for the flat gray stuff that came with the kit. Also, you will have two bags of polyfil. You'll only need it in the sub-enclosure inside the center channel. Also, the rear panel of the sub-enclosure will need foam. You'll also add foam in the main cabinet to the sides, rear, top or bottom (not both). I applied my foam to the top and attached the XOs to the bottom. Use 3M Super 77 spray adhesive to attach the foam. For the L &R speakers I also used egg-crate foam. You'll attach foam to the top, bottom, rear and one side of the L & R speakers.


I used Titebond II wood glue on the cabinets. I also have a nail gun and a 2hp air compressor and I used that in some areas. However, when I wanted the tightest fit possible, I used glue and countersunk screws.


Seal all the enclosures with caulk. I used black caulk so I could see it better. Pay close attention to the posts that JL and I made about cutting the driver holes for flush mounting.


Study the XO schematic and make sure that all the soldering points match up. I didn't connect my midrange driver correctly at first and it didn't work. Once I took the driver and XO out, I discovered my mistake and was amazed at how good it then sounded. There is a technique to soldering that requires you to heat the area to be soldered and not the actual solder (something like that). I also used connectors on my driver inputs and used my crimper to attach them. I finally finished my speaker stands and will have them stained this weekend with pictures to follow.

jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

It's good to see this thread revived. You'll find the subwoofer construction to be pretty easy. I build my sonosub in a couple days and you can do it easily in a weekend (if you have the time). I built a 15" sub in an 18" tube. It has a 2" granite base and is 71" tall. It's the most bang for the buck you can build yourself for $500. I've now got to make some acoustic corrections in my room that I've discovered. I need to repair some rattles and make some acoustic panels.

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by darthopus_
> *After moving in to my new house a month ago it seemed as if every weekend required my wife and I to go somewhere or unpack something.
> 
> 
> This past Sunday I was able to start finishing my Audax center and start on the Sonosub. Of course wouldn't you know that as soon as I started to go to the garage Sunday afternoon, my wife's friend and her husband show up. That ate up a good two hours.
> 
> 
> I was able to get the caps cut and glued for the sub, as well as, the center channel holes and seems puttied. I don't get to use veneer like I had planned due to a couple of unforeseen financial emergencies. I'm going to have to try and get the mdf as smooth as possible so I can either laquer or paint it. I'll let you know how it turns out as I think I can get this done this weekend. No more money for painting the house, at least until my wife gets paid next week, so I'm free to work. Assuming my son is no longer sick by then.
> 
> 
> I'm really itching to get this done as my current sub seems so puny after seeing the size of the sonotube.*


----------



## Jassen

ok newbie question,,on the drivers which one of the two male connectors is the positive and which is the negative? the wide one or the skinny one,,same question applies to the tweeter? on the drivers there is one connector painted red i assume thats the positive,but the tweeter isn't color coded.


thanks


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I used the wide one as positive. I also used blue electrical tape on each end of all the internal wiring to mark positive.


----------



## J. L.

My tweeters were not marked either, however the Audax web site at this link has a dimensional drawing of the tweeter that clearly shows the wider terminal as being the positive terminal.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys, I finally finished my speaker stands and have added pictures. I'll get the center channel and sonosub pages updated by tomorrow. The front channel page is below with new pics.
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/audax...peakers001.htm


----------



## Jassen

Two last questions,, I think. Is it ok to have the polyfil touching the crossovers? Also the kit came with one bag of polyfil and i stuffed both enclosures but i still have about half a bag left should they be stuffed more or less? I did see the post about only the center channel needing the stuffing but why would the L&R kit come with stuffing?I did glue the sheet foam in place already.


thanks again


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I only stuffed the sub-enclosure in the CC. I used probably less than 1/4 bag. Everything else I lined with egg-crate foam where indicated. I believe Madisound told me not to stuff anything but the sub-enclosure. Did anyone else stuff the main cabinets?

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jassen_
> *Two last questions,, I think. Is it ok to have the polyfil touching the crossovers? Also the kit came with one bag of polyfil and i stuffed both enclosures but i still have about half a bag left should they be stuffed more or less? I did see the post about only the center channel needing the stuffing but why would the L&R kit come with stuffing?I did glue the sheet foam in place already.
> 
> 
> thanks again*


----------



## darthopus

The plans on Audax' site say to only stuff the sub enclosure in the center channel.


Update,


I have the Sub almost done. It was very wet in central california this weekend and the glue took a long time to cure. Hopefully I'll be able to get the last cap glued tonight or tomorrow and be able to enjoy serious bass. I wasn't able to finish the center channel as I spent all my time on the sub. Things always seem to take longer than you plan don't they?


I'll try to get some pictures up soon.


Don


----------



## darthopus

Here's a pic of the sub. Right now both caps are glued and painted. Tomorrow I'll glue the pegs for the base and coat it with some clear matte finish. By Thursday it will be done minus the cloth that will surround the cylinder.


----------



## wxone

Fascinating read! All of you guys are commended for your work and the apparent ease you seem to make it. Currently, I'm beginning my homework for building speakers and looking forwards to this project.


Just a couple of questions:


Joe L. - you mention a computer software where you can model crossover based upon driver specs. Can you tell me what software & vendor is?


2nd - For those whom made the audax speakers, are the designs you used adaptable for amp bridging?


Regards,


Ron C.


----------



## J. L.

wxone,


First, I have not used any of the following software... I simply searched using Google and compiled a few links. Your Results May Vary...


I built the Audax Home Theater speakers and used their published design. The only change I made to the published design was to make cabinet front and rear baffles 1 1/2 inches thick and then to make the front L/R enclosure two inches less deep and a bit over four inches taller (keeping the internal volume the same) to keep them from protruding too far into the room.

*Results of my Google Search*

First, Adire supplies a version of LspCAD for Adire Drivers that will allow you to design enclosures for their drivers. It is a possibility if you are considering them. I have a 15 inch Tempest Subwoofer waiting for me to find some spare time and a length of 18 inch Sonotube. I'll be using that software to optimize that enclosure.


For other vendor's drivers, you will need a program that either has them defined in their database of driver parameters, or one that allows you to input the parameters of your own drivers.


One of the programs mentioned a lot is LspCAD. The full version is available at this link to LspCAD . Although it is not free, there is a demo to allow you to determine if it might work for you.


Another possibility I found was Speaker Workshop It is freeware.


A third I found was Loudspeaker Lab It seems to have a demo mode you could try.


Yet another loudspeaker design program mentioned often is WinSpeakerz 

They have several demo's available for download featuring drivers from several vendors.


One more is winISD . It is freeware.


A great page I found that listed most of these programs (and a few others) in addition to links of interest to DIY builders was DIY Loudspeaker Resource Page 


As you start on your DIY Loudspeaker learning curve, you have plenty to read and absorb. There are support forums to help the beginner... and the experienced. Even after building the Audax HT speakers, I feel like I am a lot closer to "beginner" than "expert." Like you, I leveraged the experience of published and respected "experts" as I started on my project.


Lastly, I am used to hearing the term "bridged" when referring to amplifiers. It is used to double the available peak-to-peak voltage to get more power to the speakers. In that respect, almost any loudspeaker, including the Audax speakers, that has both input terminals isolated from ground may be used.


Hope this helps...


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Finally, I added the last two pages to my center channel site with pics of the stand, stain and grille:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/audax_center001.htm


----------



## wxone

Thanks Joe!


Sorry for the disappearing act! Very busy at the office and was away for a couple of weeks in training.


Very helpful info! I ordered Vance Dickason's "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, 6ed." as a primer. I going to tryout all of the software you mention and use the one that works best with me.


We're currently remodeling our half-finished basement that includes guest room, quiet room (a reading room for my wife), and our florida room; and building a new rec room for my son and a wine cellar (for myself of course!)

My contractor is doing all the framing, drywalling & flooring; while I handling all the electrical work and painting. The $$$ saved will fund all the materials I need for the speaker building endeavor! The info you provided will definitely help in where to properly applied my cash resources.


Thanks again!


Regards,


Ron C.


----------



## J. L.

My DIY speaker building was interrupted with other home maintenance items taking much higher priority. (Let's see... a second major ice storm, many trees down on property, this time only four days without power, folllowed by never ending rains... flood in basement caused by tree root clogged curtain drain pipe...)


Now that those are in the past and I have a bit more free time, construction is again in progress. Several pages back in this thread, I posted images of the Audax HT rear speaker enclosures being clamped and glued. At that point, they were almost ready for veneering.


Several months later... After installing the crossovers, adding egg-crate acoustic foam, and a bit of sanding, I applied red oak veneer using the dried yellow glue and hot iron technique.











Waiting for a dry weekend day, I was able to take them outside to apply several coats of black anailine dye. They are starting to look pretty good now.










Next will be several coats of PolyCrylic finish. (At least I don't have to worry about reflections from the nearby screen with the rear speakers)


Joe L.


----------



## clross

I'm new to HT. I'm currently in the process of setting up a system in our living room and was looking at Polk, Infinity, and Boston Acoustics when I talked to one of the electrical engineers at work. He showed me the error of my ways and I'm convinced that I could easily build a set of HT speakers that dollar for dollar, put the retail speakers to shame. I've only been searching the web for a few days now reading up on speakers and I quickly learned that my best bet was to build a HT system from a proven set of plans rather than try to design my own. I discovered this kit and through lots of searching found this great web site. I've really enjoyed reading all of the posts and I feel like this Audax kit is within my price range (unfortunately not my wife's price range, she wanted to do something else with the income tax check!







) and my capabilities. I wish I had the time to make boxes as nice as Joe's, but between work, cycling, and my other chores I think it is best that I purchase the boxes.


Well enough rambling and onto my questions.


1. Does anybody else sell the Audax kits with assembled boxes besides Madisound? I like the kit they have and the boxes, but I would prefer the boxes come assembled including the veneer but without a finish so I can stain them to match the rest of my furniture. Madisound said they can only do this when they place another order for boxes from their supplier and that could be a couple of months. If I wait that long I might spend the money on something else!










2. How well/bad do the front speakers work when sandwiched between the TV and the wall? I have a TV recess in the wall with about 18 inches of room on either side of my 42" TV. I will have approximately 2 feet behind the speakers to the rear wall, but not much room on either side. The front speakers will also be angled some to point toward the couch so they will not be square with a wall.


3. What methods have people used to mount a 45-50 lbs. center over the top of their TV? I'm pretty sure the TV won't support it and I have a sloping ceiling that is over 15' high above the TV so ceiling mount is out of the question.


My Loudspeaker Design Cookbook should be in tomorrow, so I will have plenty of reading to do. Thanks for all of the great posts and let us know how the system sounds when you get it all complete Joe!


Thanks,


Chris


----------



## J. L.

Chris,


Zalytron also supplies assembled boxes and kits of parts for the Audax HT Designer speakers.


I have never dealt with them as a company, but everything I have read on the web describes them as being another great company for speaker builders like us.

http://www.zalytron.com/ 


A quote from their web-site is as follows:



> Quote:
> No one builds speaker boxes like Zalytron. We are one of the few companies selling speaker components that manufacture our own speaker cabinets. Our standard box is built with 1.5 inch thick MDF walls throughout. Yes, the enclosures are heavy, but when you are using quality components you want to hear the woofers and tweeters not the boxes. This thickness insures dead cabinets so you can enjoy all of the music and not have to endure cabinet induced distortions. All enclosures are then veneered in your choice of Red
> 
> Oak, White Oak, Ash, or Walnut. For an additional charge Rosewood is also available.
> 
> 
> If you check our kit pages you will find the prices for boxes to go with each system we sell. We can also make custom cabinets to your specifications, call for a price quote. Please note that we can not cut driver holes for brands that we do not sell. We don't have the tooling necessary for cutting those holes and can only offer blank fronts.



Based on their enclosure description, you might want to figure on the center enclosure weighing over 70 lbs. Mine is about 50 lbs with only 1.5 inch thick front and rear panels. If theirs is 1.5 inch thick MDF for all sides, I would expect it to be a bit heavier than mine.


The Audax series are listed in the "Kits/HT" section of their web site. A phone number for Zalytron is on their "contacts" page; they are in NY.


Please apologize to your wife about my helping spend your tax return.


J. L.


----------



## SVonhof

J.L., you beat me to it. I was going to mention Zalytron. I have only bought drivers from them, so I cannot comment on the boxes, but when I saw them and the details about them in their catalog a few years back, I was pretty impressed. I also remember that Speaker Builder Magazine (now called Audio Xpress a few years back where they got an Audax A652 kit from Zalytron and the only complaint they had was that after assembling the whole thing, they had the tweeter wired reverse polarity, based off a wiring schematic, but I don't remember if that was Zalytron or Audax info...


BTW, when you call Zalytron, they seem like a very laid-back company. So, if you don't get the profesionalism that you are desiring, remember that they make a great product. This may have changed, so don't use this to make any decisions about them....


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Chris,

Check with this guy also. Cabinets are his specialty and he does beautiful work. I've been to his shop and seen his work. He is the official cabinet builter for GR Research speakers. You may want to talk to him about that line. He can build the cabinets and you can buy the components and assemble them.


His name is Brian Bunge: http://www.rutledgeaudiodesign.com/ 

Jeff


----------



## clross

I have spoke to both Zalytron and Rutledge. This Audax system as priced from Madisound is pushing the upper edge of my budget. Zalytron is building everything from 1.5" MDF and the prices show that so they are beyond my budget. I spoke to Rutledge about it and he is slightly higher than Madisound for the cabinets, but he is rounding all of the vertical edges and using magnetically attached grills. This is pretty cool since if you remove the grills the magnets are hidden under the veneer so nothing shows. I have a local cabinet maker giving me a quote also. He will have to charge me tax, but shipping charges from Wisconsin or Georgia on a full set of cabinets is going to be substantial maybe even more than tax so we will see how it comes out. I'll post the outcome once I hear from the local cabinet maker.


Regards,


Chris Ross


----------



## J. L.

Chris,


Sorry that the pre-assembled cabinet vendors we pointed you to are priced near (and over) the limits of your budget. It is pretty easy to spend the tax-return checks in this hobby... even if you *way* overpaid and are expecting a huge tax return. So many possible toys... Only so much left over after Uncle Sam gets his share.


Another possibility, you might ask your local cabinetmaker how much he would charge simply to cut the MDF panels to size and make the holes in them for the drivers. Then, you could do the assembly. That is fairly easy once everything is cut and can be done even if you do not have a shop or a lot of time. About all you would need are a few clamps and some glue.


It only takes an hour or so to do any single phase of the construction. If you followed my progress in this thread, you will see it has taken me months. I too have to fit DIY Speaker Building into my free time. My biggest problem is now that my theater is coming along, I use quite a bit of my free time to watch movies.


Welcome to the DIY Speaker Building ranks... even if you pay someone else to make the sawdust.


Joe L.


----------



## clross

Well, I just got the price from the local cabinet maker. He will build all of the speaker cabinets including 3 rears and the sub for $500 per the plans on Audax's website. I've asked him to not stain or varnish the cabinets so I can color match them to the rest of my furniture. That will beat the online places especially once you add in shipping. If I order the electronic kits from Madisound I'm looking at about $1500 plus varnish, stain, and speaker wire to build everything. I might just come in under budget yet!


I was told by a couple of the online places I talked to that the Audax sub wasn't that great. Has anybody built this sub? What are your opinions? Does it match the quality of the rest of the speakers? Any comments would be appreciated.


Thanks,


Chris


----------



## Drew Eckhardt




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ted White_
> *Looking for plans for very high quality theater speakers. I'm not into design software, but rather looking for some plans that have been proven winners.
> 
> 
> Anyone?
> 
> 
> Ted*



I love the natural sound of ESLs at low volumes, but find their transition to box woofers lacking and am not impressed by their macro-dynamics. So...


My current (still converting wood to sawdust) audio project is a pair of Linkwitz Orions, which are three-way active dipoles (from 20-1440Hz).

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm 


Guys have given up big Martin Logans, Aeriel 10ts, Wilson Watt/Puppies for them, and Siegfried is selling his Audio Artistry Beethoven Elites so I have high hopes.


Estimated total cost for a pair is $2100 without amplifiers (6-8 channels) or cables, although cross-over and cabinet assembly are available for a lot more.


Suggested spacing is >= 4' tweeters to the front wall, >= 2' tweeters to the side walls, >= 8' apart so they may not fit your decor.


I haven't figured out to do with the center channel yet, but will probably duplicate the woofer H-frame, turn it side ways, and put a slightly shortened mid/tweeter baffle on top of it.


----------



## safaa

hi

i just bought two SEAS drivers from zalytron w18ex-001 and millennium tweeter.

. so i ask how much cabinet will be it was $200 for two ways . so i made my own.

they very helpful.

recommendation on DIY speakers . tweeter layout and woofer lay out should be connected separate to the terminals then bridge the terminal.

it sounds better.

i`ll be buying the second set next week.

they really look good and sound lots better than what i have.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Chris,

I built this sub:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm 


It's very large but I'm sure that it will hang with any $2000 sub out there.

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by clross_
> *Well, I just got the price from the local cabinet maker. He will build all of the speaker cabinets including 3 rears and the sub for $500 per the plans on Audax's website. I've asked him to not stain or varnish the cabinets so I can color match them to the rest of my furniture. That will beat the online places especially once you add in shipping. If I order the electronic kits from Madisound I'm looking at about $1500 plus varnish, stain, and speaker wire to build everything. I might just come in under budget yet!
> 
> 
> I was told by a couple of the online places I talked to that the Audax sub wasn't that great. Has anybody built this sub? What are your opinions? Does it match the quality of the rest of the speakers? Any comments would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Chris*


----------



## J. L.

It has taken me quite a bit longer to finish the rear channels than I originally figured it would. So many projects, so little time.


I used the same Minwax PolyCrylic satin finish as I did on the center channel. This time, light reflected from the screen will not be an issue.










*You can see their relative size in this image:*









*DIY Audix HT Speakers along side of DIY screen. (link to DIY Screen thread is here) *









I did have to adjust the gamma on these images. It is really hard to see detail otherwise.


My new Audix HT rear channels sound great. To see how they sounded compared to the front speakers, I used one rear and one front connected as stereo speakers. It is amazing how similar they sounded. (This is probably because they used the same drivers) About the only difference was in the deep bass, and that will be handled in my theater by a subwoofer.


I'll be starting on a DIY subwoofer next. I have a 15 inch Adire Tempest driver and have started my search for a local source of Sonotube. As I cut circles of MDF for the end-caps, sawdust will be flying again...


Joe L.


----------



## catapult

The new cabinets from Parts Express are a big hit in the DIY community. Good price, well built, excellent finish. The best part is the 1" thick, rabbet joint, front baffle which mounts with 4 screws that eventually get hidden under the grill hardware. You can pull the baffle off as many times as you need to get the tuning tweaked or even buy a replacement if you mess up a cutout. Then glue it in once everything is finalized.

Parts Express Enclosures


----------



## Ted White

WOW! I started this thread, but haven't been here in a while. I have since built what I consider to be the ideal HT speakers for my setup. Excellent mains and modified surrounds to fit within my columns. Painting these puppies as we speak.


You can see the designs and Pictures on my website.


Ted


----------



## J. L.

Ted,


Yeah... look what you started...


Lots of us following in your footsteps.


And we're not done yet...


Joe L.


PS.

Your pictures of your theater look great. I really liked the way you braced your speaker cabinets. I'll bet they sound pretty dead when you rap on their sides.


----------



## Ted White

The surrounds came out great also. A Tony Gee design modified by Roman. They fit into the columns nicely, yet should have a very very similar acoustic footprint as the mains. I need to get some more shots of them on the site now that they're assembled, pried and painted.


I would note that I didn't go wild on the finish since al speakers will be behind the screen wall or in columns. No one will ever see them..

Ted


----------



## J. L.

It has been a few weeks since I finished the Audax HT rear speakers. Since then I have been a bit busy, but now I've started on the DIY subwoofer for my theater. After a lot of research, I decided on an internal volume of 260 liters. I already have the Adire Tempest driver.


I located a local source of 18 inch Sonotube, got it home and cut it to size. Only then did it hit me as to how tall 65 inches is. (Just about my height actually)

I initially tried to cut the circles with my portable jigsaw and a makeshift circle cutting attached to its base plate. It did not work well at all. The blade wanted to go in a straight line and even though the jig forced it into a circle, the cut it made was nowhere near 90 degrees from the surface of the MDF. It was so bad that one blade snapped from the bending.


I made a new circle cutting jig to fit my router. I now have eight MDF circles. Three each for the end-caps and a top and bottom plate for appearance. (It has to look good as well as sound good)


At this time, the bulk of the cutting is done. I cut a short section of port tube to keep the two MDF circles that make the plug aligned, then clamped the top cap to it and used my router with a flush trimming bit to make the hole in the top cap piece of MDF. This then allowed me to use a roundover bit and flair the outside edge of the port.


Pictures will follow... back to making sawdust.


Joe L.


----------



## J. L.

I gave the MDF a first coat of primer and took a few pictures.


I decided on building a Sonosub similar to this great design. Although it is big, my wife liked the appearance and it will fit in the corner of my theater. (I'll be painting my end-caps black to make the sub a bit less noticable)


A 1 1/2 inch length of port tube was used to align two 18 inch diameter MDF circles while clamping them to a third 20 inch circle. Once clamped, I used my router with a flush trimming bit to cut the port hole in the 20 inch circle even with the inner diameter of the port tube. Then, I used my roundover bit to make the flair. To give you an idea of the scale, it is a 6 inch diameter port.

*Close up picture of Sonosub port. You can see the short length of port tube I used to keep everything aligned.*










Driver end cap is also made of three layers of 3/4 inch MDF. Outermost layer has been cut to clear Adire Tempest frame. I have not yet drilled the inner two layers for mounting bolts.
*Driver end of sonosub.*









*Top and bottom plates were also cut and primed. I used a 3/8ths inch roundover bit on all the exposed edges.*










Now... the making of sawdust is mostly complete. Glue and assembly is next.


Joe L.


----------



## jmiyake

Nice photos too.


I can't wait for you to tell us how they sound. I will be building a set of subs soon also. (after I finish my center, and surrounds.) I would be interested in getting your opinion of the Tempest.


260 Liters, gawd! Tuned to what?


James


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

That sounds very similar to the one I built. Mine is also 260L. The original designer says it's tuned to 17Hz. I used a 1/2" slab of granite as my base and two 3/4" pieces of MDF laminated together for endcaps. The hardest thing for me to find was the 6" port tube. I couldn't find any PVC at Home Depot and finally found sewer pipe at Lowes. I had to buy a full 10' length and cut it to length. I'm driving the whole thing with a Parts Express 250W amp. I have enough sonotube and sewer pipe to build another one but I probably won't since I have Bass Shakers. I also looked at that same design that you are using. I wound up using this one:
http://dustin.bunnyhug.net/sonostart.php 


Instead of the Adire driver, I used a Dayton 15"DVC which I had heard in a subwoofer built by Rutledge Audio Design (RAD) http://www.rutledgeaudiodesign.com/ 


My cylindrical sub: http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm 


It will definitely rock the house and you'll find out just how insulated your room is as well as how well things are secured to the walls.


Some day, I'll finish my theater. It's been in a temporary state since December. I have to build columns and decide on what I want to do with the walls. At this time, it's very functional and we can comfortably watch movies until I get the urge and time to get back on it.


Good luck,

Jeff


----------



## DaveInBerlinNJ

Wow. Great thread. You guys have done (and are still doing) some fabulous work.


And I thought I was "all that" because I FINALLY hid my speaker wires in the wall this weekend!


----------



## jmiyake

Having finished my line arrays my attention is now turned toward the center channel. I first did some prototyping of various configurations. This one has 2 midwoofer line, an extended mtm configuration.










In the end I decided to just make shorty array roughly half of an array. 4 tweeters, and 5 woofers.


I am going to use the same baffle width as the towers but tilt them back. Also I need to add volume, so I decided on an odd unequal trapezoid shape. All angles are either 15 degrees, or 90 degrees.











Just as the Line arrays all the drivers will be flush mounted. Here is the front baffle mostly milled out.











The tweeter line will be backed with a solid piece of wood, to add stiffness, air tightness and simplify the cutout.











Each driver is separated by a full diameter brace, which adds stiffness. The brace is solid for the first 6" or so from the front wall to prevent immediate interaction of the woofers. (I still have to mill out the openings in the braces.) The cabinet is made of 1" mdf, the braces are 3/4" mdf.











More milling to do before gluing it together. But it is taking shape.


James


----------



## J. L.

James,

The 260 liters internal volume will be tuned to just under 17 Hz. The Sonosub will end up over 6 feet tall when assembled.


Wow... now that is a center channel! You make the construction look easy, even with the complex angles involved.


How do you plan to wire the 5 woofers? I can't think of a series/parallel arrangement that will provide equal power to an odd number of drivers. (Other than all in series (40 Ohms?) or all in parallel (1.6 Ohms?))


Jeff,

I got real lucky. The cardboard tube my screen material was shipped on from Vutec just happened to be 6 inch diameter and heavy walled. Perfect for the port tube in the subwoofer. So... a length of it will be re-cycled. (got to be nice to the environmentalists)


The Dayton DVC 15 inch driver is a near clone of the Adire Tempest. Although it has been described many times as being nearly identical, looking at their specs, the Tempest is about 1 1/2 pounds heavier and has a slightly lower self resonant frequency. I'm sure they both move lots of air when given the right source material.


I am very lucky in that the room is pretty well isolated from the rest of the house and I have no nearby neighbors to disturb if I decide to turn the volume up.


I know I will find every rattle in the room. They already occur with my small 10 inch sub when I turn it up. Fortunately, so far, most were easy to find and silence.


Oh yes... I also have 4 Bass Shakers waiting to be mounted in my recliners AND a ButtKicker2 waiting for when I build the riser to hold my second row of theater style seats. (that project is next, after the Subwoofer)


If I do this right, I'll find out if the fillings in my teeth are secure.


Joe L


----------



## jmiyake

Hi J.L.

the speakers will be wired series/parallel with a slight tapering of the power. I will experiment with 2 options. A 2 -3 with the 2 on the top. This should give an impedance of 9.6 ohms. A 1-2-2 with the 1 at the top giving an impedance of 4 ohms.


Having the power tapered toward the top, might have a tiny positive affect on the height of the image location(in theory.) But the real deciding factor for going with 5 woofers is, that is how many will stack under the screen. Also 4 tweeters, 5 woofers, approximates the configuration of the mains with 8 tweeters and 9 woofers. I don't know how good of a center match is really achievable with two 6'5" line arrays. But I think this layout will get as close as possible.


James


----------



## Jeff Hovis

James,

Keep the center channel pictures coming. My next speaker building project will be for my two channel system upstairs. I currently have a set of 22-yr old Bose 601s that I want to replace. I'd like to build something really nice and maybe I can build a smaller version of your array. My wife would like something non-obtrusive and I'm thinking either thin and medium tall or a good set of small speakers.


JL,

Cardboard or sonotube in a 6" diameter would have been my first choice but I just couldn't find anything. The smallest tubes that HD and Lowes had were 8" Quickrete tubes. The plastic sewer pipe is nice and sturdy but also heavy. I have the other half of my sonotube and I've thought about cutting it in half and building a smaller sub but with the bass shakers, I just don't think I'll need any additional bass. They're so easy to build a guy could probably build them as a little side business.

jeff


----------



## Wombat2

just spent 2 hours of the bosses time reading this thread from start to finish. - OK so I work for the Govt in Oz











JL -

I had already decided on the Audax Centre for my next project it was great to see how yours came together. I'm currently working on the 142.5 Litre vented enclosure for the Shiva as my sub. Putting together the amp at the moment, just need the time to nut out the layout in the amp enclosure before cutting and drilling.


Problem in Oz is that we don't have the access to the same sort of suppliers that you do in the States so have to try and substitue a lot or work out if what you guys are taliking about is here but called something different. Example "yellow glue" got no idea what that is or what its equivalent is here. Most of the major hardware outlets cater for the 'consumer' market and don't carry the full range of things only the most popular or market leaders (read heavily advertised). Also Brisbane (where I live) does not have the population the other cities like Melbourne and Sydney so we have even less choice.


Keep up the pictures guys - as they say a picture says a 1000 words


David L


----------



## jmiyake

Yellow glue is just carpenters glue.
















Many brands and varieties.


You must ave something down under that will give you a fair suck of the sav, ( course I wouldn't know them from a bar of soap)










Hoo-roo,


James


----------



## Wombat2

PVA ???


----------



## J. L.

PVA Glue comes in both white and yellow varities.


The yellow glue is marketed here in the USA for woodworking, the white glue is sold for hobbies and crafts (Elmer's brand being one of the more common)


Both would work for veneering. From what I have read, the white glue melts at a slightly lower temperature (~200F) than the yellow (~250F). Although I have not tried it, it may even be easier to iron on then when using yellow PVA glue. Some "cross-linked" PVA glues (Titebond II) melt at an even higher temperature (350F)


Unless your speakers will be in direct sunlight in your car, any PVA glue would work as I doubt that you would ever see 200 degree temperatures in your theater. (Unless it was a *very* hot movie )


Joe L.


----------



## Wombat2

Thanks guys,


As far as I can tell all woodworking glues in Oz appear to be White PVA - most common = "Aquadhere" - no yellow. The only "coloured" ones are the constrution adhesives - most common = "Liquid Nails" but these are solvent based. There is a new one I noted the other day called "Liquid Nails Quick Grab" which is water based.


May be a mute point now anyway as the veneer I have been looking at is preglued iron on in 18 inch wide sheets.


Cheers


David L


----------



## SnowDog12

I suppose this question is for Joe, but anyone with woodworking skills would probably be able to answer these (newbie) questions. On a side note - thanks Joe! I've been following this thread for quite some time and have been very inspired by your thoughtful posts and excellent photos.


First question - I'm having difficulty finding MDF at my local Lowes. They only seem to have particle board. I know these two materials are very similar, but should I wait and get MDF, or will the particle board do just fine?


Second question - I have general carpentry experience, but have never used a plunge router. Since I don't intend to use it for much more beyond this project (and maybe a few others), would a Black and Decker 1 3/4hp unit be ok to use? Its at my local Lowes relatively cheap at $79. I'm unclear if this is an area where you get what you pay for and should pay the extra amount for a Bosch or DeWalt.


Third question - I can't seem to determine what router bits to use for what. For instance, I can't tell what bit would be used for cutting out the circle holes for the drivers, and I also can't tell what kind of edge forming bit to use for rabbiting (?) out the edges where the drivers are countersinked into the driver holes. Additionally, what size edge former bit is used for rounding off the front baffle edges?


I apologize for the length of this post, and would appreciate any help any one can provide. I'll try and post pix of my project as I proceed to help contribute to this thread.


----------



## J. L.

SnowDog12,


Thanks for your kind words...


First, MDF is much more dense than particleboard, ask at the service counter at Lowes, they probably have it or can get it for you. It is very much preferred for loudspeaker construction. In my Lowes, it is not near the particle board, but instead near the shelving. In fact, for most of my construction, I used 4 foot long 12 inch wide shelves. I took advantage of their factory straight cut edges and corners. (I had less cutting to do that way)


I have seldom used the "plunge" feature of my router. You could spend a bit less and get one without that feature. I would guess that they would all have some way of adjusting the depth of the cut and that is really all I needed when assembling my Audax HT speakers. All that said, the unit you described would probably do just fine. Most important is the ability to *keep* its height setting from changing as you cut.


I used five router bits the most.


They were:
a 3/8th inch flush trimming bit (with guide bearing)
a 1/2 inch straight cutting bit.
a 3/4 inch straight cutting bit.
a 3/4 inch roundover bit. (with guide bearing)
a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit (with guide bearing)


All but the 3/4 inch roundover were in a set of bits I picked up in my local Lowes for about $30.00. It is the bit I used to round over the edges of my cabinets.


I picked up a set of roundover bits for about $25. on sale at a local Harbor-Freight tools outlet.


I have found lots of uses for my router other than for the speakers, in fact, the first project I used it on was to replace the laminate on my wife's kitchen counters... the speakers came years later.


I've actually gone through two 3/8th inch flush trimming bits as I would cut each panel about 1/8th to 1/4 inch inch too large and then clamped it to a straight edge and trimmed it to size with the router and the flush trimming bit. This allowed me to get accurate straight edges and 90 degree corners with relative ease. (and without a table saw)


Good luck on your DIY speaker project. Post pictures for the rest of us to enjoy.


Joe L.


----------



## jmiyake

A bit like this is a good one for cutting Medium Density Fiberboard. And if you have a 1/2" collet the 1/2" shank is best , it will vibrate less.









A straight bit 


Many use a rabbiting bit like this to flush mount drivers. Definitely get one with a bearing.









Rabbiting bit 


The larger the roundover on the baffle the better, soundwise. However the more difficult to use.









The largest roundover bit I have found is a 1 1/2" roundover. I was told I was mad, for using this in a hand router. So it is an unsafe practice. (Don't try this at home kids!) Anyway here's a picture. : )











To cut circles the easiest way is to use a Jasper Jig.







There is a cheaper way, you can use a thin piece of wood an make a plate with a nail in it the correct distance to allow the router cut the hole. Kind of a one time jig. The distance from the point of the nail, to the outside of the bit is 1/2 the diameter of your end hole.


Here's another good source with a wide selection.

MCLS Router bits 


James


----------



## SnowDog12

My goodness, you guys (Joe and James) responded within an hour to my post! I was thinking that I might not hear anything for several days and would have to wait! Thanks so much for your insightful answers, fellas. I'm off to Lowes and Menards to get my stuff.


On a side note, I had intended to build these kind of piecemeal, i.e. center channel first, L/R ones second, stuff like that. My wife had other ideas however, and told me to just get everything I needed all at once! W00t! Her motivation is that I won't let her watch Twister until I get these done, because we put in a projector system (Sony HS-10, 110" Parkland screen) and my existing speakers now sound too "small" (Klipsch Quintets) to me.


Joe - I noted that you mentioned you might be building one of those sonotube things instead of a more conventional sub? Is there a reason for this, and will it still effectively "match" the Audax speakers?


----------



## SnowDog12

oh ya, and *James* - that router bit looks just INSANE!


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## SnowDog12

whoops, it appears that I can't seem to use html tags in the message body, my bad.


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## J. L.

John,


if you use "[" "b" "]" instead of the usual "", the bold tag will be effective (oh yeah, leave off the quote marks and spaces I put in to keep them from being interpreted as formatting tags.


I am almost through with my subwoofer. In fact, I gave most of the MDF assemblies a coat of flat black enamel this morning.


I do not have to worry too much about the subwoofer matching the Audax HT speakers. The Audax HT series have a decent response well below the planned crossover frequency of 80 Hz. Therefore, if I set up the sub to do everything below 80 Hz, I'll be fine.


I expect the sonosub to have a decent frequency response down into the teens. That should be enough to rattle the fillings in my teeth. (if I get carried away)


One last thing... I built my DIY speakers the same way you plan to... first the center to prove to myself I could do the woodworking and assembly, then the rest of the parts were ordered once the center was completed. It has been quite a few months of effort, often slowed by my wife and I taking time to watch and enjoy many many movies.


Joe L.


----------



## SnowDog12

Hey guys, good news! I went to my local Menard's (basically a poor man's Lowes here in the midwest, don't know if they're national or not) and found a terrific product that I think (hope) will work great. They had pre-veneered birch or oak on MDF! I've never heard of such a beast, but it looks beautiful! Literally MDF with a veneer sheeth on it. Very heavy stuff like MDF is supposed to be, but I figure this will save me from having to go through the tribulations of doing my own veneering. Granted, it won't be covered on the rounded off corners, but this doesn't bother me too much, and I think that once sanded and stained it won't stand out that much. A standard sheet of 3/4" 4x8 MDF was $17, and this stuff was $31 in the same dimension, so I think it will save me money over the project's life.


I tried to get all the bit sizes you guys suggested, but they didn't seem to have anything over 1/2", so I might have to look around for the 3/4" stuff.


Off to start "making some sawdust"!


----------



## J. L.

SnowDog12,


Sounds like you are on your way.


You might consider using a "band" of solid oak around your front panel. You could even use 3/4 inch quarter round piece of pre-milled stock from your lumber yard and then you would not need a 3/4 inch roundover bit for your router at all.


Another way to do this is to cut a rabbet into the front edges of your cabinet (using a straight edge as a guide) and then glue in the 3/4 inch quarter round.


I'll try to find an example on the web of a box constructed using this technique. (Just be patient... the web is a big place when searching... and they keep adding pages...)


Joe L


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## J. L.

John,


I gave up looking and just sketched what I was talking about instead. The only example I found was this http://www.diysubwoofers.org/projects/1259.htm but it did not have really good pictures of the edged veneer.


With any luck, i'll be able to attach my drawing to this message.


Joe L.


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## J. L.

As I start to assemble my 260L Adire Tempest Sonosub, I figured I would take a picture or two of my new "baby" as it takes shape.


Over the past few days, I've given the MDF end-caps a coat or two of flat black enamel. I initially tried to use a spray cans of Rustoleum paint, but found it almost impossible to get an even coat. To make things even more difficult, the sprayhead would also spit drops of paint at random onto my finished end-caps, making me very unhappy.


I did have to spend a bit of time with a sanding block and fine sandpaper to fix where the paint drops had splattered from the sprayhead this morning. For the final coat, I abandoned the spray can in favor of a brush and a 1/2 pint of flat black Rustoleum enamel.


To space the top and bottom plates from the end-caps, I am using 4 inch lengths of 1/2 inch pipe. Through these will go the 3/8th inch threaded rods that hold the sonosub together. I plan on covering these iron pipes with PVC pipe painted black. The PVC covers will look a little better than the bare pipe and will hide the threaded ends of the pipe from view.


I'll need to make those PVC covers just a bit longer than the iron pipe so that when everything is assembled the PVC will be slightly compressed between the cap and the top plate. (I will probably try to put a bit of foam weatherstripping on them as well. I know they will be subject to a bit of vibration.)


In the following photo, I have assembled the port end of the Sonosub. The port tube and end-cap assembly dwarfs my current subwoofer seen in the background. The port is made from a length of the 6 inch diameter cardboard tube my Vutec screen material was shipped on.


To get an idea of how big this thing is, compare it to the caulking gun on the floor nearby.











I'll post more photos as the assembly progresses.


Joe L.


----------



## Jay Wilson

WOW. That is impressive! I have been following this thread since thebeginning, and there's something about the center channel in that last photo. It just looks awesome! I'm anxiously awainting your sub completion as I plan to do one myself...I just don't have the experience to "design" it from the ground up, so I'm going to have to rely on others and their sizes, etc. I can't wait!


----------



## J. L.

Jay,


I have been able to get in a few more hours time the past few days building my DIY Sonosub and have a few more pictures to share.


The first picture is the driver end-cap and bottom plate assembly. It is made from three layers of 3/4 inch MDF. I still have not unwrapped the plastic from the lengths of 1/2 inch pipe I will be using to support the top and bottom plates. Last night I made PVC covers for the pipes to hide the threaded ends and make them a bit more attractive but these pictures were taken prior to that step.


You can also see the groove I made in the bottom-most layer of MDF to accept the Sonotube.

*The driver end-cap and bottom plate*









*A close up of the bottom end-cap that will hold the driver.*









*I mounted a pair of binding posts on a plate made of 1/8th inch thick fiberglass printed circuit material.*










I did say that I had a DIY photo... well... with the help of the timer on my camera, I took this next true "DIY" picture. It will give an idea of the size of this "baby." I'm standing behind it and the camera is angled upward, so it looks even bigger then it really is. Assembled, it will end up about 6 1/2 feet tall.

*Yes, the Sonotube is already cut to the proper size...*










Last night, my wife helped by sewing the stretchy fabric sock that will cover the outside of the sonotube. Tonight I'll probably do the wiring and install some acoustic foam / fiberfill in the port-end of the sonotube. We are getting closer to the final assembly.


More pictures to follow... stay tuned...


Joe L.


----------



## Jay Wilson

WOW! I knew it was 6 1/2 feet, but seeing it next to you...well, it seems much bigger. I may not havbe room for that...Hmmm...I'll find a place










I'm thinking of laying one sideways behind my screen. That would make my endcaps having to have one flat edge. That way I can hide it. I'm watching!


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## J. L.

Jay,


It doesn't help that I'm only about 5' 6" and was not wearing shoes when I took that picture of me standing next to the sonotube. It makes it look even bigger (or me shorter) than it would otherwise. Your idea of laying one on its side behind the screen would probably work very well.


In my case, the sub will probably go in the corner of the room to the right of my screen. Most likely nobody will notice it since the closest thing in most people's experience that looks remotely like it is their water heater. In other words, it is so big it will hide itself.


Joe L.


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## SVonhof

No way would I be able to get away with a beast like that! I might be able to do something in the 44-48" tall range, but 78" no friggen way.


Is there a reason why you didn't go larger on the diameter so you could go shorter on the length? I assume you have your reasons.


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## Jeff Hovis

JL,

I assume yours is that tall because of the upper and lower protective endcaps that are attached with dowels? I think you basically built the same subwoofer that I did. I bought one of those round grilles from Parts Express to cover the port and it kept the height down and does a pretty good job of keeping dust out. I also bought one for the driver end but I can't remember if I ever used that one. I used bun feet that I bought at Home Depot and then sat it on a granite slab. Mine is 72.5" tall.


Scott, I liked the 18" tube because it still fits behind my screen or in a corner. Anything larger defeated my small footprint philosophy. Mine is out of sight behind my screen and curtain. Also, anything larger would have been really tough to get home. I used several rolls of R13 insulation stacked in a corner as a bass trap. I saw that idea somewhere on the net.

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


You are correct, the additional height in my DIY Sonosub is due to the top and bottom plates and the pipes that support them. Each assembly adds about 5 1/2 inches. I personally think they make the sub look more "finished"


Scott,


Actually... the height is *only* going to be a little bit over 77 inches







so it might just meet with your approval.


My reason for going upward instead of wider is exactly as Jeff said. I don't have a lot of room for a wide sub, but I do have eight foot ceilings. It was not too hard to make the choice. As I'm sure you know, as long as I keep the internal volume as designed, it won't make a whole lot of difference weather its Skinny and Tall, or Short and Fat.


Unlike Jeff's Subwoofer, mine will be visible in the corner of the room. By making the entire thing black I'm hoping that most people will not even figure out what it is until the movie is under way. (and then it will be even harder to see in the dark theater!)


By the way...today's "Deal of the Day" at partsexpress.com is a 250 watt Subwoofer Amp for $99. shipping included. It is the model without any Bass Boost, exactly like I would need for my new Sub. I was going to use an old SWTP Tigersauraus monoblock amp I had from my old Hi-Fi days, but this was too good to ignore, so out came the Visa card... If they ship it today, I just might get it in time for the weekend.


Joe L.


----------



## Big Whip

JL,


I have to say this thread has been incredible. You've just about convinced me to go DIY with all my speakers instead of just the sub. I do have one question about the Audax. Are they able to play cleanly at or near reference levels? My room is going to be somewhere near 4000 cu. ft. (20 x 25 x 8) and I'd like to upset the neighboring towns, if possible.










Thanks for all the work you've put into this thread!


----------



## J. L.

Big Whip,


Thanks... I think the sawdust was worth it. You will end up with speakers worth many times more than the cost of the materials. On the other hand, if this was my full time job, I'd go broke. It takes a lot of time.


As far as power handling capability, The following quote is from the Audax web-page describing the Audax Home Theater speakers at this link
http://www.audax.com/doit/us_ht01.shtml 



> Quote:
> Realistic reproduction of movie sound tracks can require short term SPLs of 105-110dB. All of the individual speakers in the Audax home theater system can produce 105dB within their frequency range in typical size rooms. Their combined output capability easily exceeds 110dB. Sensitivity for the speakers in this system falls in the range of 87-88dB SPL/1w/1m. This translates to minimum amplifier power requirements of 100 per channel.



I think the DIY Audax series will do just fine. I'm only currently using 15 watts per channel and it is plenty loud, and I like it loud. My room is a bit smaller at about 14 x 18 feet.


I'm not too sure of disturbing those in neighboring towns... you might need two subwoofers and to leave the windows in your theater open for that to occur... but... that only involves a bit more sawdust... I can guarantee that some of the speakers illustrated and described in theaters I've seen on AVS could disturb neighborhoods. I'm relatvely sane compared to some










Joe L.


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## J. L.

Last night I started on the final assembly of my DIY Sonosub. I thought I would get it completed and have a chance to test it out... (I was wrong)


There were still many tasks and between them, I ran out of time.


First task of the evening was to add some fiberfill/acoustic dampening material around the port tube at what will be the top end of the sub. I had some of the "Walmart - mattress pad" left from building the Audax HT speakers and used it together with 1 1/2 packages of fiberfill. I added small screw-eyes to the top cap and secured the mattress pad to the top using several lengths of waxed Dacron cord lacing cord. It is not going anywhere. Between the mattress pad and the port tube I stuffed the fiberfill.

*Mattress pad/acoustic foam/fiberfill attached around the port tube*










Next step was to add closed cell foam weatherstripping in the groove I had milled in the top and bottom caps. When the sonosub is assembled, this should give an air-tight seal without me having to glue the caps in place. Since I am using long threaded rods to secure everything together, it will let me take it apart if I ever decide to make modifications.

*Adding closed cell foam weatherstripping in the groove milled in the end-cap. You can also see a screw-eye used to secure the acoustic foam*










Next... assemble the pieces...

Long threaded rods go through the top end cap, through the support pipes (4 inch lengths of black pipe covered with PVC) and into surface mounted "T nuts." I tightened everything together using nuts I had previously threaded onto the rods.

*Top assembly prior to tightening up the nuts on the threaded rods*









*Top assembly now in place on the Sonotube. It is starting to look like it might just work the way I planned*










Did I mention the threaded rods were about 8 1/2 feet long) The excess length of the rods will get cut off when I get that far.

*Bottom cap was then slid onto the ends of the threaded rods at the bottom end of the sub.*










Next step was to install the Adire Tempest driver. That took two tries. Would you believe that on the *last* of the 8 mounting bolts that the "T-nut" I had installed fell off on the inside of the sonotube.







At this point it was well past midnight... I removed the driver, glued the "T-nut" back in place and decided to call it quits for the night. In the morning, I mounted the driver (successfully!)

*Driver is now mounted. Support pipes and bottom plate have been slid onto the ends of the threaded rods.*










Off to work I go...with any luck, I'll get to finish the Subwoofer up tonight.


Oh yes,


Jay... here is what it looks like lying on its side. The black fabric sock is already in place, ready for the final stretch.

*The BIG picture*










Joe L.


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## Jay Wilson

MMmmmmmm!!!!










Can't wait until tomorrow when you tell us what it sounds like!


----------



## Big Whip




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jay Wilson_
> *MMmmmmmm!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait until tomorrow when you tell us what it sounds like!*



Just open your window later tonight. It looks like we'll be able to hear it for ourselves!


----------



## J. L.

It was me





















BIG GRIN
























Jeff,


You were right... you can feel the pressure waves on the really deep bass passages...


Jay,

It does not look as big when standing in the corner. As I suspected, it hides itself.


Tomorrow I expect the 250 watt amplifier to arrive on my doorstep, in the mean-time, I stole the plate amplifier from the back of my existing partsexpress $99 dollar sub. I'm sure it has a built in bass boost as I found it difficult to adjust it to where it was reasonably balanced with the rest of the speakers.


If upper bass was fine, the deep bass was deafening and would shake the whole room AND EVERYTHING IN IT. If the deep bass was in line with the rest of the speakers, the upper bass was lacking. I can't wait till tomorrow night to try an amplifier without a bass boost.


I have learned one thing... It seems that I have a bit of work to do to get rid of some rattles in my theater. Oh well... it will be worth it. So far, I took care of two doors and a poster frame by adding some foam weatherstripping, but there are more to find and silence.

*Here it is, I don't think "baby" is a good name for it... I'll have to think of one...*










I'm re-watching a few select scenes in a movie or two right now...


Joe L.

BOOM...(as a depth charge goes off nearby in U-571)


----------



## LordSnave

That thing is huge!










Props on all of your speakers. They look great!


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## jmiyake

Congratulation Joe! It looks great! You really whipped through that project. Proper Planning! Great execution. Way to go.


Try the pod race. The pressure wave should be very spectacular!


My center has been sidetracked by my schedule. 70 hr work weeks, and THIS weekend there's this oceanside family campout thing. When will I get it done?


James


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## jmiyake

Oh by the way, what does your wife think now that the beasty is assembled?


James


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## Jeff Hovis

JL,

It looks really good. Feeling those sound waves is the coolest, don't you think?! I still have rattles in my basement and everywhere upstairs. U571 is a good one to test with. Also, LOTR has some really great bass passages in the cave battle scenes. I don't know about you, but I can't imagine having two of those in my room. However, I do have enough material to build another one;-) BTW, I have the PE 250w amp and I set the xo at 180HZ and started with the phasing at 0 but now it is turned to the top position (I don't remember moving it but it still sounds good). The speaker settings on my receiver are set to small.

Jeff


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## J. L.

James,

My wife thinks our new DIY Subwoofer is great. She actually helped in picking a design (appearance) that we thought might look good in our theater. She did a great job on the fabric sock that covers it. She went shopping for the fabric for the sock and found something black and stretchy she liked in the odd-and-ends bin at Joann's Fabric. With her help, it did come together quickly.


She agrees with what I have already said, it hides itself in the corner.


I can't wait to see more pictures of your center channel as it progresses. Perhaps you can skip a few nights sleep and work on it instead...


Jeff,

The new 250 watt, "non-bass-boost" amplifier sounds *much better*. The bass boost in the other amp was NOT helping at all in matching the sub's level with the rest of the speakers.


I located another rattle... it was the doorknob itself in one of the doors! Quite a few more to go... I'll keep at it till I can really turn it up. Worst one now is up above the suspended ceiling about 6 feet behind us in the room. (probably 18 feet from the Sub!) I'll silence it once I get a ladder and check out what is up there.


Tomorrow's sawdust project: Stands for the rear channel speakers. I plan on making them look like the ones I did for the front channels, but taller. Somewhere around 50 inches. They will be sitting on the rear seating row riser, so their tweeters should end up well above our heads when we are seated.


Scott,

It turned out to only be 77 1/4 inches tall... nowhere near the 78 inches you said you couldn't possibly get into your theater







. Have you given any thought as to how big the 24 inch diameter, 4 foot long tube you suggested as an alternative is? It is HUGE.


In my opinion, the 18 inch diameter tube is easier to make into a good looking sub. (but then, all parents think their "baby Bass-Beasty" is beautiful, don't they)


Joe L.


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## Jeff Hovis

Joe,

All this talk about bass boost got me thinking about my amp. I checked the part number and I have the one without bass boost also. I thought that I was missing out on something.

jeff


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## SVonhof

J.L. what is it with all you AVS'ers? Everyone thinks my name is Steve, when it actually Scott!! This has to be at least the 5th or 6th time that has happened.







No biggie. I will answer to either Steve or Scott.


Well, I don't think either an 18" O.D. x 77" tall or 24" O.D. x 48" tall sub would work for me or my wife. I wouldn't mind trying it though, if somebody wants to subsidize me for the project. The cash cow called the stock market is now turning out Monopoly money instead of real cash! Just kidding. I have other hobbies I am spending my money on right now, as well as DVD's to add to the collection. I think my theater sounds pretty good with the two subs I have in there already. Granted, they are not going down to 17 hz, but you obviously need lots of air space for something like that, as well as a rattle generator! BTW, they do make those, so you can rattle all you want at the frequency you want, so that you can find your rattle points and fix them, without getting sucked into watching the movie instead of finding the rattles! You should be able to find a link by doing a search on "rattle generator". Sorry, I don't want to go out searching for it right now....


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## SVonhof

J.L., I just showed my wife the pictures on this page of this thread. She asked why you have a water heater in your theater so close to the door?!


Just kidding, she knew what it was, since she saw the other pics. She has some comments though. First off, she wants to know how you use that door behind the sub? Second, after I told her about your rattle problems, I showed her the pics in your gallery so she could get a better idea of the overall room. She said no wonder, with the cabinets up front with the glass doors and such.... She also thought that you should have included an overall picture of the sub in the theater, showing the rest of the theater at the same time. I told her this was about DIY speakers and she didn't care, she wanted to see the rest of the room to see how the sub actually looks in it's native environment.


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## J. L.

Scott,


First... Sorry about the name mix-up. I'll try to do better from now on (and I already have







)


I had originally planned to put the sub in the corner, between the bookcase and the wall with the door. When I put it there that first night, when it was temporarily connected to the plate amp with the bass-boost, the whole wall with the door rattled.


The Tempest driver is pretty efficient and does not need much power to get it moving. I can imagine it was getting the full output of the amplifier if it was 6dB boost at 30 Hz, probably at least 12 dB boost at 15 Hz. I was trying some bass-intensive scenes... it was shaking everything.


To answer your wife's question, behind that door is a small closet with holiday decorations stored on a shelf unit and the main circuit breaker panel for the house. As such, it does not get much activity. On the same wall is a second door, it opens to service the air handler on my heat-pump. I eventually plan on re-doing the entire wall with fabric and hidden panels to access the closet areas behind them.


Believe it or not, none of the bookshelves with the glass doors rattle. They have European style spring loaded hinges and are very well behaved. What I silenced so far were doors, poster frames, and doorknobs. What are left and most annoying are coming from above the suspended ceiling. I suspect is is just a hanger to one of the ceiling rails that is loose.


As soon as I straighten out the rest of the clutter I made when building the sub I'll take a picture or two of the whole room for your wife to see. Now that I have all the speakers, it is time to get everything set the way I envisioned when I started.


I spent the morning building stands for the rear speakers. I should finish them tomorrow. Then, my wife has sketched what she envisions for a ticket counter and concession stand... Looks like the sawdust is not over, but those projects will be described in a different thread.


Joe L.


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## Matt Peacock

Ohh this thread is still active, fantastic.


J.L. would you mind if I picked your brains about the Audax kit from time to time?


I have created a PDF of the Audax webpages concerning the DIY Home Theatre Kit, I basically copied and pasted into Word, but I've preserved all formatting and images (removed navigation etc). I hope at least a few people find it useful, it took quite a while to produce.


Matt (long time lurker short time poster)


edit: Please see later post for updated file;
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...56#post3099956 

 

audax diy home theatre.pdf 428.6982421875k . file

 

audax diy home theatre.pdf 428.6982421875k . file


----------



## jmiyake

I have been working long hours, which have prevented me from completing my center channel array. However during the brief intermissions between crisises at work I have been able to form some ideas about my subwoofer.


By using 6 15" Dayton Quatro woofers (just $75 each) in sealed cabinets, spread across the front of the theater, below the screen, the form a wall to wall subwoofer array.


So rather than radiate into open space, the woofers will couple into a single low frequency line source. Since these reach wall to wall, they would be a horizontal equvalent to the floor to ceiling vertical line arrays, which behave like a virtually infinte line source.


Thinking of this in low frequency terms. The 6 subwoofers working in concert will will create a seamless pressure wave towards the listener that is completely confined on three sides (floor, left wall, right wall.) Think wave machine.


Another interesting fact: The sd of the 15" Dayton quatro is about 127 square inches. Times 6 that is about 5.3 square feet. The front of the room is 13' wide by 8' tall, so that is 104 square feet. Therefore the sd represents just over 5 percent of the area of the front wall.


Detail: six 15" Dayton Quatros (fs 21, vas 186.9 ltr, qts .41) placed in a separate boxes with a qtc of .64, each with an enclosure size of 4.8 cubic feet, across the front of the room. The Quatros are a great value and model great in this regard. They actually do better than the Tempest in resonable sized sealed enclosures.


What opinions do you have on this approach?


See below the illustration of the front of the theater with the subwoofer configuration. Click the url link for a view of the actual room.


James


----------



## J. L.

James,


I can only think of one word in response...

WOW


Now that I've seen (and heard) what one 15 inch sub will do, I can't imagine the pressure wave from an array of six.


I hope you carry earthquake insurance and that your home is built to handle the vibrations. Be prepared to have to find and silence a few rattles... in your neighbor's house...


I say, go for it... It is only sawdust (and $450.00 in drivers) You do realize that with the much longer wavelengths involved, you can space the drivers a bit further apart before having to worry about comb effects.










Some day, I'd love to hear it. What state do you live in?


Matt,

Your PDF is great. *Be aware that there are two errors in the plans on the Audax web-site.*


The woofer crossover schematic for the Center channel has the woofer polarities wrong. The pictorial illustration and the description in the text both (correctly) say that the woofers are wired "out-of-phase" The schematic incorrectly shows the minus input lead connected to the minus terminal on the woofer. That should be the plus terminal.


Basically, the polarity of both woofers on the center channel woofer crossover schematic is opposite of what it should be. The pictorial illustration of how the woofer crossover is physically constructed is correct. E-mail correspondence I had with the designer, Joe D'Appolito, confirmed this.


A second error: The pictorial illustration of the woofer crossover for the left/right front speakers is incorrect, there is no wire connecting the midpoint of the two resistors (R2 and R3) connected in parallel with the woofers and the junction of L2 and C1. In this case, the schematic drawing is correct.


I did not run into these errors as my crossovers were wired by Madisound and supplied already constructed. Since you have put together the PDF, you might want to add a note describing the errors in the drawings.


By all means, feel free to ask questions as you proceed on you project. Thanks for the PDF.


Joe L.


----------



## cgmoore

I just revisited this thread after many months... glad to see it is still rolling.


JL your speakers look awesome, dude. And I thought it was the neighbor punk's thumpity thump car stereo that I keep hearing over here in Knoxville!


Seriously, your story and contributions to this thread are very inspirational. Thanks for sharing!


ps: You should call your sub The Big BASS-tard!


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## jmiyake

J.L.

I was thinking you should call them-

J. LOW.


James


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## jmiyake

Actually the goal is effortlessness and low distortion. By greatly increasing the speaker area, I hope to eliminate the need for long throw, which causes delay, and distortion. Also sealed enclosures with relatively low q should minmize boom, extent the low frequency response, and reduce distortion at the very lowest frequencies.


My hopes are the result will be musical, effortless, clean, and yet very powerful.


That is the theory at any rate.


I live in California, not too far from My name is NOT Steve.










James


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## SVonhof

So, my two cents:

Did I already say that J.L.'s sub should have been painted white and some yellow stickers applied so it looks like a water heater?

James, I like your comment!







Also, I was wondering why you are choosing to use a box Qtc of .64 instead of the "Theoretical" perfect Qtc of .707 according to Vance Dickason's book? If you were to use a Qtc of .707 you wouldn't get any bumps in the bass response and would still get the nice frequency roll-off as well as getting a smaller box. You would instead go from a 4.8 ft3 box each to a 3.34 ft3 box each.


Hopefully you can read the attached image ok.


----------



## jmiyake

Hi Scott,

what software are you using, and what is the meaning of the room gain and filtering graph. Particularly what is going on with the B rg+f?


Your explainations are anticipated with great eagerness.


James


(I bet J.Low has a great bottom end! Oh baby!)


----------



## SVonhof

I forgot to say to forget about those, this is from a spreadsheet that is very general and is made for calculating cabin gain for subs in cars as well as any extra boost and filtering.....


Just look at the main curves. The spreasheet came from Brian Steele at http://www.diysubwoofers.org 

The spreadsheet link is: http://www.diysubwoofers.org/prt/ported.zip


----------



## Matt Peacock

*J.L.*,


Thanks for the tip about the errors, I was already aware of the L/R error, but not of the center speaker (I *think* I remember someone on maybe diyaudio.com saying to check the center speaker with a 9V battery and seeing what happened, but I dismissed it as cautionary), but anyway that's saved me some hassle so thanks for the heads up.


I am in the process of modifying the images (am on laptop for the while, which has no good graphics editor), I was thinking about correcting them in exactly the same style and re-printing the PDF, it seems as if a lot of people are still interested in this kit. I'd like to get the file size down aswell.


Cheers for letting me Q+A you, I ordered my veneer today (sanding day! tomorrow is routing day), should arrive Monday if all is well. I'll post any problems as I no doubt run into them.

_edit_: I have realised a question. I have been told that I would achieve a better finish if I veneered the cabinets and then routed the driver holes/rebates after. Notably the exact depth measurement for flush mounting achieved and 'clean' cuts on the veneer (as opposed to a knife). However I am concerned that the router bit would 'tear' the veneer. What are your thoughts/experiences?

*James*,

I think you could probably take out a small country with the shock wave from those. Good stuff










Matt


----------



## J. L.

What I did was to do the rabbeting first, before the application of the veneer.


I also learned (the hard way) to make the hole for the driver exactly 1/2 inch smaller than the diameter of the flush mount rabbet. Then, it is simple to use the bearing guided rabbet bit (set the the proper depth) to cut the rabbet.


after veneering, you can use the same rabbeting bit (set to a slightly shorter depth) to cut the veneer even with the rabbet edge. It goes very fast and I had no problem with the veneer tearing.


The advantage of this is that you can correct any errors in the cutting of the MDF (not that you would make any) before the application of the veneer.


An excellent description of this technique can be found here: http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_fi...ventutmain.htm 


Joe L


----------



## J. L.

James,


The other J.Lo. (the actress) has a high pitched voice, so I don't think that name for my subwoofer fits.


My wife has referred to our sub as a "Monster" and we both enjoy science fiction flicks so perhaps it can be a BASS-Monster


Scott,

Great idea about the glossy white finish with yellow stickers. Nothing like hiding a tree in the forest.

I ran that color scheme by my wife and she nixed the idea... Sorry.


Joe L.


----------



## Matt Peacock

*J.L.*,

Excellent info thanks, good link too. I think I'll do that exact procedure. I'm not too worried about cutting it wrong, but I am worried about damaging the veneer.

*James*,

I intended to have a poke around your site but ended spending most of the evening there (excellent photos btw)! I think I'm going to do as you did and round the edges of the bracing in the speakers with a 1/4" round-over bit, it's only a little extra work.


An open question, something I won't be tackling for a while however...grounding drivers? I've seen a few commercial speakers that have grounding pegs. Further research led me to discover that each driver was grounded, is this worth doing?


Matt


----------



## jmiyake




> Quote:
> Scott said: I was wondering why you are choosing to use a box Qtc of .64 instead of the "Theoretical" perfect Qtc of .707 according to Vance Dickason's book? If you were to use a Qtc of .707 you wouldn't get any bumps in the bass response and would still get the nice frequency roll-off as well as getting a smaller box. You would instead go from a 4.8 ft3 box each to a 3.34 ft3 box each.



Hi Scott,

This is a good question. There are a couple of reasons I feel a lower Q than .7~ would be a better for this arrangement. .707 provides the maximum flat frequency response. However in room this can lead to a bit of a bump due to low frequency room gain. For flater "in room" response some consider it better to drop off earlier. Also one of my goals is lower extension, a lower Q provides this and a slightly shallower slope. I am sacrificing some power handling, but the number of drivers allow me to easily make this trade off. None of this is a slam dunk however, and .64 is not that far removed from .7.


James


----------



## jmiyake

Hi Matt,

Most people recommend a table router for the shaping type bit I used. So I cannot recommend it as a safe practice. (I guess I'm just a wild man.)


Regarding the value of roundover edges here is a page were a test was done using 3/4" round over with visible results.

Dennis Murphy's speaker page 


James


----------



## downhill

Wow...what a thread...


JL...that sub is friggin' huge....


I too am using a Tempest...jmiyake...what to say..I'm been thinking Line Array for sometime now....I'm flabbergasted at your crafstmanship. Looking forward to hearing what you think of your center channer.


I've been also thinking of a design for a CC following a cabinet like the Adux...I've picked out drivers and a tweeter..and even designed a crossover for them, but have no idea how to model the whole thing...


Anyhoos.....here's my Tempest with a 280 watt plate amp...It works very well.....the only thing I would change is money related.....I'd do a sealed Tumult....









{Pics removed}


----------



## J. L.

downhill,


It seems there are quite a few other DIY loudspeaker builders out there who know how it feels to be covered with MDF sawdust.


I like how you did the trim on your subwoofer too. Your wife has good taste. At least folks in this forum will not be suggesting you paint it gloss white with yellow stickers to have it fit/hide in your decor. (Svonhof, my wife still does NOT like that color scheme)


How did you do the black side panels? Paint? Laminate? Cloth? It is hard to tell from the picture.


Joe L.


----------



## jmiyake

Downhill,

thanks for the very nice comment. It has turned out better than I expected. This has been a real learning experience for me. Since I have had such good success with the main line arrays, (really the hardest part) I have gotten ambitious, and want to make the rest of the speakers: center, subwoofer, and eventually surround, as state of the art as possible.


Your Tempest subwoofer looks great! The trim really sets it off. Makes it look petite. So it is one of the Adire designs? Is that really the EBS? So it is 340 liters? Wow, doesn't look like it in the pictures. How does it sound? Why would you prefer the Tumult?


BTW: What are the odd, non-symmetrical speakers in the background?


James


----------



## jmiyake

J.L. how's the rattler roundup going? And how does your sub integration sound? Do you do much music or mainly movies?


James


----------



## downhill

Thanks for your kind comments.










J L..the MDF panels are spray painted a flat black. Oil based, Rustoleom (SP). I thought about laminate, but decided I wanted a flat color...I'm still a student at some of this..the oak is stained with Minwax, Vedona Red. I wanted it a bit more red but in the end, decided I really like the stain.


jmiyake, the box is an Adaire design. It's theirs...The what they call the Adaire alignment, a 214L with two 3 inch tubes, 11 inches long and stuffed with 64 ounces of polyfill.



The Tumult...why? It moves more air. ..But then, money is a consideration. I'm not at all unhappy with the Tempest. In fact I'm elated as to how it turned out.











Your the first to bring up them speakers in the background. They are Marantz...HD-88's with a (no kidding) 4 way crossover.

..


I'll bet your line arrays blow them out of the water!


----------



## DanTana

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but for you Swan Diva fans you can buy Hi-Vi speakers from Madisound that are the same drivers that come in them.


----------



## brothermaynard

Good drivers alone are easy to find, it is the crossover that is hard to get right. I am not sure that the ones in the Swan Divas are all that remarkable... Are they?


----------



## jmiyake

The metal hi vi woofers have a very harsh hi frequency ringing. These are very difficult to use and very hard to design a good crossover for. Definitely not beginner stuff. Much greater likelihood of success would be to use drivers that either have less problems around resonance, or to use drivers for which a crossover is already designed.


James


----------



## jmiyake

Had some time to work on the center this weekend.


Finished milling, and started gluing.

Here is front, the center is on it head which gives it an odd look.











If you can imagine it upside down, the shorty array will tilt upwards at a 15 degree angle.










Here is rear, which is open. The shape really looks odd with the wide-angle lens. None of the angles look square.











Here are details of the bracing. You can see I used a 3/8" roundover inside the braces. Also I wanted a little more open area in the 1st brace to I cut a little triangle. I also use a lot of glue which leaves large fillets. It may look a bit messy but sould be strong.











Only a little more milling to do. Wire cutouts for the ribbon line, and vent holes for the back plate along with a recess for the terminals.


Since it will be located just under the screen, I will probably just paint it flat black. While I paint it, I will play the Rolling Stones... you know the song.


James


----------



## SVonhof

James, earlier in this thread, J.L. gave me the info for some "dead flat laquer". I would think this would be a good place for you to use it.


Also, on your first picture, you could have flipped it so it wasn't "on it's head" and exlpained what you did.


----------



## jmiyake

Hi Scott,

thanks for the tip on the flat black.

Sorry about the confusion, the glue was drying so I couldn't flip it. I just wanted to explain why it was such a weird shape. Besides, I am not the only one in this thread that likes to flip things on its head... hint... hint.










James


----------



## Jay Wilson

Do any of you guys know of a plan/kit for a set of dipole surrounds? Zalytron had a kit using Focal drivers...but the links to the schematics and pictures are now dead. Also Focal is apparently changing their line and some speakers noted in the kit are NLA or in very limited quantities. I'd like to do a set of dipoles in the rear as my rear wall is about 15 feet behind the seating area.


----------



## J. L.

James,


The "dead flat lacquer" I used on my Left and Right channel speakers was not black, but clear. I used black aniline dye on the veneer and then sealed it with the clear dead flat lacquer. The result was no shine or gloss at all, exactly like I wanted.


I have used the same dye on raw MDF. It works quite well but does not dye where you have sealed the MDF in some other way (excessive glue near the joints, even if you wiped away the excess, seals the surface of the wood so the dye can't penetrate as well)


I used the dye on my speaker stands. Since they are not very visible in the rear of the theater, I can accept that their finish is not absolutely even. The result is a surface that reflects almost no light and looks textured. (almost as if covered with velvet cloth)


You would need something opaque in order to cover the glue joints and the wood and have both look the same in the resulting finish.


I have read of "India Ink" being used for this purpose. Very black, and opaque, and flat. It might be worth an experiment to see what finish it would provide. It, combined with a flat lacquer might just work.


Of course, oil based, flat black Rustolium paint works well too. It is best sprayed as brushing could leave some brush marks. I used it on the top and bottom of my front speaker stands and on the end assemblies of my subwoofer.


Joe L.


----------



## Matt Peacock

Well my time-frame has slipped again. It's been a week of problems!


I bought a router, as buying one was cheaper than hiring one for the time I require, and if I blow it up (trust me, most things I touch spontaneously-detonate) it doesn't matter. I've rounded the internal baffles as 'practice'. Anyone who can offer tips on good routing, I'd be most grateful. It's not as hard as I thought, but getting a perfect finish is proving difficult, perhaps it's just practice practice practice.


The veneer arrived a week late, and unfortunately it's cut into 1.5ft strips, which isn't enough to go around the front and sides in one piece, so I'm not sure what I'll do about that yet.


That aside, it seems to be going OK. When I get my digi camera back I'll host some photos, ready for criticism. In the mean time, I thought about painting the inside of the enclosure with some form of sound-deadning paint. Would there be a discernable benefit to this?


Matt


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _
> 
> I bought a router, as buying one was cheaper than hiring one for the time I require, and if I blow it up (trust me, most things I touch spontaneously-detonate) it doesn't matter. I've rounded the internal baffles as 'practice'. Anyone who can offer tips on good routing, I'd be most grateful. It's not as hard as I thought, but getting a perfect finish is proving difficult, perhaps it's just practice practice practice.
> 
> [/b]
> _


_


With some pratice and a quality sharp carbide router bit, then you will get the results you are after.

Be as smooth as possible when running the router, along with a good sharp bit. You should get good results in MDF.


It's real wood that can be a problem, as then you have to deal with the grain of the wood, and the type of wood itself as well._


----------



## Jeff Hovis

One VERY IMPORTANT thing about MDF. Always cut and/or trim it outside or in your garage. Wear goggles and a mask. This stuff makes a very fine dust and it gets on everything. I made all my cabinets in the garage during the winter months and I used a leaf blower to get the dust off everything and there is still some on the upper shelves. It will really iritate your eyes and mucous membranes. I don't know what is in MDF, but I don't want to inhale it.

Jeff


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## CoZZm0

If you have a spare helper and a spare vacuum cleaner, that can help to reduce the amount of dust that makes a fine layer on everything, although it won't totally stop it, it certainly does help.


----------



## SnowDog12

Hey all! I have some embarassing questions that I originally posted to J.L. in a private message, but I wondered if perhaps some others might have similar queries, so I'm posting them here. Joe hasn't replied to me yet (I only posted to him just yesterday), so if anyone can assist I'd be very grateful.


I thought I had a handle on some things, but then after cutting my first pieces realized that there a few things I don't know or don't understand, and don't seem to be covered in the "instructions" included with the Madisound shipment of the Audax kit (sans cabinets).


1 - what is the weather stripping for? Is that supposed to go around the flanges on the drivers?


2 - are we supposed to somehow seal the cabinets with some kind of caulk (inside joining edges)?


3 - is there anywhere that illustrates how the foam and stuffing material is supposed to be applied in the various speakers? They supplied it, but there isn't any explanation of how much / where it goes / etc. as to what I'm supposed to do with it!


4 - how are the crossovers supposed to be mounted? screwed down, or using that foam tape?


5 - when mounting the drivers, is it ok to just screw them down tight, or do you need to use some kind of caulking material between them and the wood?


Thanks in advance if anyone can assist!


----------



## Matt Peacock




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SnowDog12_
> *1 - what is the weather stripping for? Is that supposed to go around the flanges on the drivers?*



The weather stripping goes in-between the drivers and the MDF, to provide an air-tight seal.



> Quote:
> *2 - are we supposed to somehow seal the cabinets with some kind of caulk (inside joining edges)?*



This is a bit wooly. You should run caulk along all the joins to prevent air from escaping anywhere other than the port hole. As for the MDF itself, some people insist it should be sealed (with watered-down PVA for example), others say it will make no difference. I am interested in sound-deadning paint, but no-one seems to have experience with it.



> Quote:
> *3 - is there anywhere that illustrates how the foam and stuffing material is supposed to be applied in the various speakers? They supplied it, but there isn't any explanation of how much / where it goes / etc. as to what I'm supposed to do with it!*



Stuffing material only goes (loosely) in the small enclosure in the center speaker. For the L/R speakers, line the entire inside except the baffle and one side of the enclosure with the foam (I'm not sure of the effect on sound of which side you choose, but make a note of what you decide in-case someone does know)



> Quote:
> *4 - how are the crossovers supposed to be mounted? screwed down, or using that foam tape?*



Some people screw them down but with stand-offs, some people screw them directly to the MDF and some people glue/goop them onto the MDF. Many users recommend dampening all the components with Goop. James has excellent photos of his crossovers on his site (check his sig just incase he changes addresses).



> Quote:
> *5 - when mounting the drivers, is it ok to just screw them down tight, or do you need to use some kind of caulking material between them and the wood?*



See question 1










Don't be afraid to post what you think are stupid questions here, I've been lurking for around a year and only just started posting. Everyone's really nice and willing to share experiences/photos. You're questions might raise new questions or highlight things people haven't thought of yet.


Also download the PDF I posted a while back, it contains most of the info, and I think (hope) you will find it very useful to refer back to when working. Note the two errors made by Audax and pointed out by J.L., I will correct these and post a new version.


Matt


----------



## SnowDog12

Thanks for the quick reply, Matt! I think I have some follow up questions for ya:


Since you don't mention the surrounds, do they not get any stuffing or foam?


I received three (!) bags of stuffing which seems like waaaay more than would be required for the small section in the center. Am I supposed to pack all that in there?


What kind of caulk is recommended for sealing the interior joints? Will silicon work out?


----------



## Matt Peacock

Yes silicone caulk is ideal.


About covering the insides of the surrounds with foam...as far as I know you do, and you cover all sides. I don't have the literature with me at the moment, so I'll check when I get home. (I'm currently making the L/R, then the center and finally the surrounds, so it's not in my head)


The centre should only be loosely packed with stuffing, I've no idea why they sent you so much. Perhaps it was so you could experiment with putting it in the surrounds (I vaguaely remember reading about this somewhere). Are you in the UK or the US?


Matt


----------



## SnowDog12

Thanks for the info. Did you mention that you had put together a pdf that covers most of this stuff already? I couldn't find it. I'm in the US, btw.


----------



## Matt Peacock

Yes, it's in this post here (post 363);

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...06#post2444306 


Let me know if it's any use, and also if you spot any errors (there shouldn't be)


Matt


----------



## Jeff Hovis

John,

I also built the Audax front and center speakers. I used black caulk inside the cabinets so I could see it. I also used 3M Super 77 spray adhesive to secure the egg crate foam to the sides (I used this instead of the foam from Madisound). Madisound sent two bags of stuffing and I used a handful or two to stuff the subenclosure of the center. I had over 1-1/2 bags left. Also, I screwed my XOs to the cabinets.


I have a site that details the building of the center and fronts:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/audax_center001.htm 
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/audax...peakers001.htm 


I have also attached my cylinder sub project:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm 

Jeff


----------



## Matt Peacock

Sorry I forgot to mention your speakers to SnowDog Jeff, I quickly looked at only the last few posters to jog my memory.


Matt


----------



## SnowDog12

Matt - thanks for the link! That has all the info I've seen in it, and its nice that its all together. One thing still bothers me though: there doesn't seem to be any documentation anywhere about foam mat placing, or fiberfil amounts (or even which speakers get it and which don't). I've seen various posts on this topic about different people's approaches, but nothing "official" from Audax or Madisound or Mr. D'Appolito. Is that all supposed to be a trial and error kind of thing?


I'm also a tad miffed at Madisound for not including the ports required in the speakers. Their website and literature specifically says "everything but the cabinets", so maybe they assume the ports are part of the cabinets, but I also can't find anything describing the correct diameter or length of the ports. Or where you're supposed to mount the crossovers for that matter.


I know I'm probably being a bit more nit-picky than I should (this *is* after all a DIY topic), but honestly, if it wasn't for the participants in this discussion and their invaluable input, I don't know how anyone would be able to complete this project satisfactorily. Or at least without some fiberfil and foam tape left over with a big question mark.


----------



## SnowDog12

Ok, I just got back from Lowes and have a coupla more cabinet questions for the gang.


- Did anyone buy their port tubes from PartsExpress? I can't find the sizes indicated in Matt's PDF (3" x 5 1/4" for LR, and 2" x 5" for Center). Are you guys using PVC pipe for this stuff? Should I even ask how in the world you're mounting it without a flange on the end?


- What kind of screws will work best with MDF? I couldn't find anything at Lowe's, and of course the "help" there was anything but. They didn't even know what MDF was, for cryin' out loud. The Audax material indicates "deck screws" for internal baffles, but I intend on using these externally as well (I'm a dork, I think they look cool), and thus would like a countersunk "button head" style screw.


BTW, when I get all of this done, maybe we can all condense some kind of FAQ we can refer others to for fundamental construction questions like this that _should_ (in theory) be included in the assembly instructions that come with the kit as opposed to the screenshots they're currently sending along with your order.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I used PVC plumbing pipe for my ports. I used Melamine screws to hold it all together and std wood screws.

Jeff


----------



## SnowDog12

This might be a question for Joe, not sure.. where did you get that black dye/stain stuff you used? You called it Anine or something? I looked all over the Lowes paint dept. and couldn't find anything remotely like it!


----------



## Matt Peacock




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SnowDog12_
> *Are you guys using PVC pipe for this stuff? Should I even ask how in the world you're mounting it without a flange on the end?*



Note the sizes are internal diameter. I'm actually buying port tubes that are rounded at one end. The reason for this is I can't see an easy way to finish (my boxes are veneered) a rounded hole. There is a guide for installing PVC port tubes in MDF here:

http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_fi...ut/porttut.htm 



> Quote:
> *Are- What kind of screws will work best with MDF?*



Use one where the thread goes all the way to the head. A lot of screws have a 'gap' between the head and thread, and this is often the size of MDF panel you are securing! It's best to try and pull the panels together as tightly as possible.



> Quote:
> *all condense some kind of FAQ we can refer others to for fundamental construction questions like this that*



An FAQ would be an excellent idea, it could be a work in progress, no matter how well you plan you always run into troubles.


Matt


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I cut the holes with my router and tapped the ports in with a rubber mallet. I ran caulk around them to be sure they were sealed. After they were installed, I used my router with a rounding bit to flair them. It worked beautifully.

jeff


----------



## Matt Peacock

Today I made a circle-cutting base plate for my router. I think it'll do the job. I'll post my results from scrap pieces of wood.


Veneer.

My veneer (not paper-backed) was delivered the other day, but it's in 18" wide sheets, or 'leafs' as I have been corrected. I wanted a 36" wide sheet to wrap around the front and sides, in one piece. The guy who contacted me told me you can't get veneer in wider than 18" leafs, and I'd have to join it with veneer tape. I don't really want 'seams' down the sides. What are other peoples experiences with this?


Matt


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Matt,

I'm not sure where you are buying your veneer, but I bought two 4x8 rolls fom Oakwood Veneer. http://www.oakwoodveneer.com I still have 1/2 sheet left. They have a pretty nice site with online samples of everything. I bought standard paper backed veneer but they do have others including 5-layer bubble free veneer. I guess the difference is that you're using non-paper backed veneer.

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

I purchased the aniline dye from Woodworker Supply company.

( http://woodworker.com )


Here is a link to the page with the dye. I used the water soluble type and just finished using the last of the one quart I had originally mixed when I dyed the veneer on my center channel. One quart was plenty enough to dye the center speaker, the left and right front speakers, the rear surround speakers, and four speaker stands. A quart of mixed dye goes a LONG way.

(I had mixed one ounce of ebony black powdered dye with one quart of hot water and kept it in a sealed gallon paint pail.)
http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPR...ARTNUM=844-995 


I am lucky as there is a store about 15 minutes down the highway from where I work. They do mail-order and have an on-line catalog.
*Here are the stands, finished with black Aniline dye and dead flat clear spray lacquer.*










I have mixed feelings about the finish. They are flat black and reflect almost no light. I had to boost the gamma in the photo editor prior to posting the picture here, as it showed no detail otherwise. They are exactly like I wanted for the theater. They really disappear when the room lights get turned low.


My mixed feelings are because I have seen beautiful wood and gloss finishes on other DIY speakers. That would have been out of place in my theater. Oh well, perhaps if I ever build a DIY loudspeaker set for my living room I can have cabinets that can reflect light.


Joe L.


PS.

I also purchased my veneer from Woodworker Supply company. Their prices are not the lowest, nor the highest, but they are local to me and had 4x8 sheets of veneer in stock so I saved on shipping costs. Your friend is almost right about 18 inch width veneer. Most times, anything wider than that has already been pieced together. (although there are a few exceptions)

Here is a link to their veneer catalog page: http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPR...ARTNUM=802-058


----------



## SnowDog12

Wow, NICE looking surrounds Joe! I'll be ordering that dye this afternoon, and hopefully be able to finish my surrounds this weekend (doing them first since I need a lot of practice with my routing skills (lack thereof).


Question on porting - Is there any difference in the wall thickness of PVC pipe? I understand that when getting this stuff, we're looking for Internal Diameter, but is that how PVC is measured and sold commercially? And does wall thickness make any difference to the resulting sound? The reason I ask is that the ones you can buy from Parts Express all look very, very thin-walled as opposed to PVC you can buy at somewhere like Lowes.


And in case any one is interested, here is our home theater as it is now: www.xmesa.com/ht/ht.html (sorry, very little html skills). I'll be posting some pics of the speakers in progress if I can ever figure out how to..


----------



## SVonhof

John, I used to sell PVC and ABS pipe at my first job at the local hardware store, so I will answer your question. Both PVC and ABS are measured with a nominal measurement. It is not exactly I.D. measurement, since there are several thicknesses, but the O.D. is always the same, since they have to use the same fittings. The various thicknesses are related to the pressure holding capabilities. Schedule 80 being the thickest that you could normally purchase(I beleive this is in PVC only and normally the small stuff), schedule 40 being the normal PVC and ABS that you would buy and then it moves to the Class 125 or Class 200 which is the thin-wall pipe.

The difference between PVC and ABS is that ABS (not used in the whole US as waste/drain pipe) is re-ground plastic and has voids in the material, but solid on the outer and inner surfaces while PVC is a denser material that is suitable for potable water.


If you buy the decorative port covers that Parts Express and Madisound sell, they are made for Schedule 40 pipe. If you are going to do as others have mentioned and mount the port, then route the end with a round-over bit, make sure you use at least schedule 40. There is some thin walled irrigation drain pipe that is out there, but is a different material and is not suitable for ports since it is such a thin wall and you would not be able to route a round on the inside of the material.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I used schedule 40 PVC and as Scott said, it is a heavier pipe. I think the inner surface is smoother than PVC. When I rounded mine with the roundover bit, it was still nice and smooth with a flared end.

jeff


----------



## J. L.

I don't think the thickness of the port tube make a lot of difference as long as they can hold their own shape. The inside diameter and length do matter as they affect the tuning frequency. Of course, you can use almost any diameter somewhat close to the original plans as long as you adjust for it in the length of the port tube.


I used the cardboard tube that a bolt of fabric came on for the center channel. It just happened to be exactly the size I needed. (Check your local fabric store, they might even give a spare cardboard tube to you for the asking)


For the front Left/Right, I started with the thin-walled pre-formed port tube I purchased on sale from MCM Electronics (if I remember correctly, they were less than a dollar each in the sale flyer). I ended up cutting off the "pre-formed port" end as it was not flaired .


In both cases, I made my own flair in the MDF with my round-over bit in the router. I also cut a very slight (1/16th inch) rabbet where the flair would meet the veneer to aid in trimming the veneer neatly around the port.

*Center channel port - made from heavy walled cardboard tube*









*Left/Right channel port - made from thin walled plastic pipe cut from port tube purchased from MCM*










In that last photo, you can see how I trimmed the veneer around the port and how the rabbet helped make the transition look neat.


Joe L.


----------



## SnowDog12

Wow, NICE looking surrounds Joe! I'll be ordering that dye this afternoon, and hopefully be able to finish my surrounds this weekend (doing them first since I need a lot of practice with my routing skills (lack thereof).


Question on porting - Is there any difference in the wall thickness of PVC pipe? I understand that when getting this stuff, we're looking for Internal Diameter, but is that how PVC is measured and sold commercially? And does wall thickness make any difference to the resulting sound? The reason I ask is that the ones you can buy from Parts Express all look very, very thin-walled as opposed to PVC you can buy at somewhere like Lowes.


And in case any one is interested, here is our home theater as it is now: www.xmesa.com/ht/ht.html (sorry, very little html skills). I'll be posting some pics of the speakers in progress if I can ever figure out how to..


----------



## safaa

its seas TW t25cf +W w18e-001

here is pic sound is great,


----------



## SVonhof

safaa, aren't you the one that made a funky looking speaker on plexi/polycarbonate a while back( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...888&fullpage=1 )? This looks much better than the other. What kind of wood did you use for the trim pieces, or is it all butcher block style wood, some stained some not? Also looks like you need some corner blocks to round the edges on the joints between sides and top/bottom panels.


----------



## safaa

yes thats me,

i said almost finished







. yes i need to round the edges.

i will get stand for it too,

the speakers sound better when they off the floor away from the walls .

glad you like it, yes i stained the edges. i will give gloss finish soon.


----------



## Matt Peacock

*Jeff*,


Thanks for the link. I'm in the UK so can''t buy from there, but the site had a lot of useful information anyway. I'll llook for a similar Uk-based one.


Just a quick question, did your paper backed veneer have 'seams' in it, at set intervals, or is it just like one massive sheet of wood? The reason I ask is that the company told me that paper backed veneer had seams of the same width anyway, and I wouldn't gain anything by using it.


Matt


----------



## J. L.

Matt,


The paper backed veneer I used has "seams" in it. You can see one of them very clearly in this photo of one of my front channel cabinets.











There are many ways to cut veneer from a log as can be seen in the following link:
How veneer is cut from logs by manufacturers 


A *major* advantage of paper backed 4x8 sheets of veneer is that you are not trying to match up the panels of veneer yourself and you do not have to deal with many glue joints and edges. The hard work has already been done for you.


I found that I could plan the cuts on the 4x8 sheet to present the most attractively patterned veneer on the front of the cabinets where it will be most visible.


If you were a professional woodworker, then the individual pieces you purchased would give you the most flexibility for layout and best appearance at the expense of more work.


If I were you, as long as you already had the veneer and it was not convenient to return them, I would take two of your pieces and give them a try on a scrap piece of MDF. If nothing else, you would get an idea of the difficulty in matching up and assembling the individual panels. Then you could decide if it is a task you want to tackle.


Joe L.


----------



## SnowDog12

Hey everyone! This is just a brief progress report with a couple of questions.


1 - I bought the PVC pipes today after reading all the recommendations and information you all were so kind to provide. I bought a 5' x 2"dia and a 5' x 3"dia piece. They seem really freakin' huge to me, are they supposed to be that big (in dia)?


2 - soldering vs. crimp on female tab connectors - I'm assembling the first of the surrounds (doing those guys first to get in all my practice), and I soldered the wires to the terminal tabs on the crossover. For the actual speaker and terminal cup sides, is it better to solder or to use female tab connectors? It seems like it would be kind of hard to solder them, but the negative (or positive?) tabs also seem almost to small for connectors. If you all do recommend using connectors, are you using regular connectors and just kind of crimping them on the small tabs?


3 - I snapped a router bit in half today! No kidding! I was humming along and then I realized it was no longer cutting, just spinning. After powering off and unplugging, a quick inspection revealed that the straight cut router bit had literally snapped in half at the top of the shank before the cutting edges. Has this ever happened to anyone before? It didn't hit me or anything, but given the RPMs those things turn, it must have really flown out of there. Is there something I'm doing wrong? I go at kind of a moderate speed. Also, you should know that I was using what is presumably a cheapo bit since it came with 4 others in a $19.99 package. Is/was that the problem, just cheap craftsmanship/materials?


----------



## J. L.

Yes... you have the right size PVC for the ports.


If you think a three inch diameter port is big, wait till you use a six inch diameter port tube. Now that is HUGE










I would not solder directly to the drivers. You can get the smaller press on crimp terminals that fit the drivers at your local "Auto-Zone" store. It is preferable to solder the wires from the crossovers to those, although a crimp alone, if done well, is probably as good.


You should double check the number of fingers (and other body parts) I have never heard of a bit breaking the way yours did. If you already did not know, use protective goggles, safety glasses, etc when using the router. What I have found to work well for me is a full face shield. It does not fog up as easily as goggles and offer much more protection than safety glasses.


Keep us posted on your progress... Looks like you need to make another trip to the hardware store to replace your router bit.


Joe L.


----------



## Matt Peacock

I suspect that it was a manufacturing defect, and a one off.


I shudder to think what it would have done if it had hit someone though.


Matt


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Like JL said, they are huge. JL was able to use what looks like a cardboard tube. I couldn't find anything like that and had to use a 6" sewer pipe that was only sold in 10' lengths. Look at this beast:
http://home.mindspring.com/~jhovis/diy_sonosub001.htm 


Audax front and center with PVC ports:
http://hohttp://home.mindspring.com/...peakers001.htm 
http://home.mindspring.com/~jhovis/audax_center001.htm 


Also, I used carbide bits that were $99 for a 12bit set.


----------



## HomeGuy

Speaker and crossover design is an art. You can't just buy drivers and an off the shelf crossover and slap them together. Meniscus built crossovers for my Klipschorns but I gave them a proven design to work from. I would suggest you build a sub first since this is an easy DYI and will get you juiced up for main speakers. If you're doing this to save money then I would look into used speakers. You can get great deals that way. audiogon and ebay are great sites. The Klipsch Heresy's with a sub makes for a nice starter system.


----------



## J. L.

HomeGuy,


I'm not too sure who you were addressing your comment, but I would say loudspeaker design has a lot to do with "science" and barely anything to do with "art."


Loudspeaker "Computer Aided Design" and simulation programs make the task of designing speaker systems (enclosures, drivers, and crossovers) much easier.


Yes... you will need to learn how to read a frequency response curve chart, and you will need to interpret waterfall response charts, but it can be done by amateurs, using tools designed by experts.


On the other hand, most of those involved in this thread are doing exactly as you described... DIY building designs that have been professionally engineered and well thought out by others.


One of two folks have chimed in and asked about using a off-the-shelf crossover or old drivers they already had. Our advice was the same as yours. It would make sound, but the odds of it being good are not in your favor.


The enclosure, drivers, and crossover ALL act together as a system. The odds of getting good results, unless they are designed together as a system, are very small indeed.


Joe L.


----------



## SnowDog12

Foam question - Sorry to be so chatty and dense fellas. On the liner foam, I've seen it posted that you need to glue it in place on all the sides except for the side you mount the xover to. Does this also mean the inside of the top and bottom as well?


Side note - just screwed together my first satellite speaker (glue comes later after listening test). Every edge isn't quite plumb, do you just sand 'em down? I'm talking like 1/32 if even that on one or two joints.


And *HomeGuy*, your post sounds an awful lot like something someone else posted much, much earlier in this thread. I suspect that you may not have read this thread entirely through. As JL mentions, we're working from professional designs, not just buying drivers and xovers and matching them up all willy-nilly.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

SD12,

I had to go and look at my construction pictures and I did apply foam to the top, bottom, rear and one side. I substituted egg-crate foam like JL did. I bought egg-crate mattress pads at Wal-Mart. I used 3M Super 77 spray adhesive. Use it outside, it is quite strong in smell and tackiness. If you get it on your carpet, you'll never get it off.


As for the edges, I had a couple that were off just a little and I used a planer to take it down quickly. A belt sander would make it a quick job also. Depending on the edge, you may be able to use a trim bit with a bearing in your router.

jeff


----------



## SnowDog12

Thanks *Jeff*! I've got the same spray adhesive. I believe I read on here somewhere that Madisound intended for you to use "some" of the stuffing in conjunction with the foam they include, or that you could go your route with the egg crate stuff. Since I'm freakin' tired of running out every dang hour to get something else not included, I'm just going to use what they sent. I have a HUGE natural advantage over most of you in that I highly doubt my hearing is good enough to be able to distinguish a difference between using their foam padding and the thicker egg crate stuff.


BTW, I'm suprised to be getting so many responses to my posts on a Sunday. I thought I was the only loser running between my garage and my kitchen and my office to check for updates! But I have an excuse! My wife is a nurse, and works weekends!


----------



## Matt Peacock

I agree with Jeff, the place where I had my wood cut didn't do it very accurately, I took the edges off with a flush-trimming bit on the router.


Just don't press too hard or you'll get a 'track' where the bearing ran, let the blade do the work.


Matt


----------



## SnowDog12

Ok, two more silly questions for you guys -


1) I can't get the weather stripping provided to bend properly. Am I supposed to cut it lengthwise to make it skinnier to its bend radius will decrease? Its my understanding from the documentation that its critical to use it, and that it's supposed to be used between the driver flange and the cabinet. To do that in its present state I'd have to make about 20 cuts in it sidesways.


2) I know it was posted here previously, but I can't find it - is the skinny terminal positive or negative?


----------



## SnowDog12

I found it - the wide terminal is the positive one, and I'm going to assume that this is the case for all the drivers.


On another note, the audax.com site appears to be completely flummoxed. All previous links to it give a "404" error.


----------



## J. L.

John,


Since madisound included a fair amount of the thinner foam, you might be able to glue two layers together to get the equivalent of the thicker foam. I'll even offer to ship my (unused) extra flat-foam to you if it would help.


Oh yes... many months ago, when I first started to assemble my current home theater, I made a statement similar to this in the thread where I was describing my DIY projector mount:


> Quote:
> The very first thing you should do when attempting a project like this is to introduce yourself to your local hardware store. Since you will likely be a frequent visitor, it is best if you are on a first name basis. In my case, this was the local Home Depot.



Welcome to the club...










The weatherstripping I had in my kit was very stretchy and I had no problem getting it to circle the flange on the driver without having to cut it lengthwise.


I did have to remove the paper backing covering the adhesive as I applied it, and it did bunch up a bit, but it will flatten as you mount the driver. I even used it on the flanges of the tweeters (much smaller diameter flange)


You are correct, the wider terminal is positive on all the drivers in the Audax HT speakers.


Joe L.


----------



## J. L.

One more thing John...


Many of us spend time on the weekends working on our theater. You are not alone. I spent the morning working on a full size poster-board mock-up of the ticket counter I will be building.


Just because you (frequently) check AVS for interesting threads does not make you a loser.


Repeat after me...
WE ARE NOT LOSERS... WE ARE NOT LOSERS... WE ARE NOT LOSERS... WE ARE NOT LOSERS...


Joe L.


----------



## SnowDog12

Wow, I don't think I'm gonna run out of dumb questions today! Thanks for all your patience fellas. I've got my first surround assembled. By "assembled" I mean literally just screwed together. The cabinet is simply being held together by two screws to a side, there is no foam inside, and the tweeter and woofer don't have the sticky tape stuff on them.


I've put it together, and it doesn't sound as "good" as I would have thought, so here's my questions about this (and basically I'm listening to it roughly next to a basic Polk wall hanger).


1 - how do I know if both tweeter and woofer are functioning properly? The woofer is definitely operating, but can't tell with the tweeter. Would it be REAL obvious if the tweeter wasn't functioning at all?


2 - I've heard some remarks about wiring where someone got something backwards on a xover or something. Since Madisound assembled these, would it be reasonably safe to say they're done right?


3 - The speaker doesn't sound like crap by any means, just not as good as I would have thought. Is this because the cabinet is only roughly held together and the drivers aren't broken in yet? This is my suspicion, but I guess I'm looking for a sanity check before I glue anything together.


----------



## J. L.

John,


The surround speakers in the Audax HT set are sealed enclosures. They rely upon the air in the sealed enclosure to "support" the woofer cone. They are unlikely to sound very "good" in an unsealed box, especially one with no damping to keep them from "ringing." Rap on the side of the box with your knuckle... I'll bet it sounds a bit hollow...


It sure sounds as if your tweeter is not working.. You would be able to tell if it was simply by placing your hand over it. Your hand would muffle most of the high-pitched sounds and you would hear the difference.


One possibility is that your wiring to the tweeter is at fault. Are the soldered connections and crimped connections made properly? Is this the first time you ever soldered? (Sorry, but I had to ask) You did remove the insulation when you crimped the terminals onto the end of the wire?


A second possibility is that you accidentally hooked up the woofer crossover to the tweeter. (and vice-versa)


Another thing to check is that you made the connections to the crossover board at the right points. Couldn't hurt to double-check.


It is unlikely that the madisound crossover was wired incorrectly, I would look there only after eliminating everything else.


If these hints do not help, let me know and I'll get more specific with other things to try.


Joe L.


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## Matt Peacock

*J.L*, thanks for the pic of the veneer join. Considering I've seen that one before and didn't notice it, I'm going to stick with the veneer I have.

*John*, I don't think I am an experienced enough speaker builder to shed some light on your dissapointment, except perhaps that you noted the box was a mock-up. It is my understanding that it has to be _completely_ sealed (which is why people use silicone sealant on the joins and even weak PVA over every internal surface).


Also just a conformation question, I've gone over and over the plans, the depth for the woofer rebates, it's really 9mm? It just seems so much. (obviously I do not have the drivers yet, I plan to get them soon)


Matt


edit: I'm glad everyone here is of the opinion we're not sad. I have now twice chosen staying in and reading up on speakers over going out. Also, unrelated, I got worryingly excited when I read this;
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/panther7B21.html (hangs head in shame).


----------



## J. L.

I did not flush mount the woofers on my center channel. That made it easy to take my digital caliper and measure the height of the woofer flange.


It measures 6.87 mm.


It sounds as if their plans are allowing a little over 2mm for the thickness of the foam used to mount and seal the woofer openings in the enclosure. In that case, 9mm sounds about right.


Joe L.


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## Matt Peacock

Hooray coaster is a troll. coaster, if you think that Sony speakers are good speakers...you need to wake up.


Your post has been reported to the moderators.


Matt


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## Jeff Hovis

John,

I agree with the others about sealing. Mine didn't sound so good either until I sealed them. As for the tweeter, you may have it wired incorrectly. You're correct about someone making a wiring mistake...it was me...twice. First, while making my sonosub, I didn't completely strip the inner insulation off the wiring before crimping it. I used 12 guage wire inside my sub. Also, when I wired the XO for my center channel speaker, I soldered a wire to the wrong place on the XO board. I knew something was not right and it was the midrange.


Finally,

Coaster, what the heck are you talking about? The Audax speakers that we have built are a proven design and they'll perfom or even outperform any system costing $3-4,000. I would say that the center channel speaker alone would cost nearly $1000 from a commercial manufacturer and we have probably built our cabinets much better. My center channel weighs around 50-lbs and my fronts weigh over 40-lbs. I assume you're just having some fun and making a joke, right?

jeff


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## Jeff Hovis

Matt,

He just joined...probably today. All 7 of his posts show his perspicacity.


----------



## Matt Peacock

Jeff,

Lol, quite. I get really annoyed as it breaks up a very good thread (or many in his case), and is a complete waste of time. There we were saying that building speakers was sad!


Matt


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## Jeff Hovis

OK guys, I'll come clean on the word perspicacity. As I told JL, I learned that word in college back in 1980/81 when I was a Sophomore. I and a few other lads were watching "Leave it to Beaver" and Ward was dressing down Wally and the Beav's paper route boss, "Old Man Mirkle". It seems that Old Man Mirkle kept calling Ward "Jack" when he addressed him and Ward became annoyed and used the word perspicacity. I immediately looked it up and now I use it every chance I get. I was also a junior Eddie Haskel...in other words, a wiseguy just like our friend Coaster.

Jeff


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## SnowDog12

Hey guys - I went back and re-tested the speaker and everything is fine. I didn't think to try putting my hand over the tweeter physically to see if it was working or not, and that did the trick - it was definitely working. The box is such a "mock-up" that it even has air being pushed out of all of the seams! So, with that being said, I think it sounds just fine for what it is at the moment. Sorry for the false alarm! Oh ya, and I got a router table over the weekend to assist with the edging, and it made a HUGE improvement in the ease of doing that stuff!


----------



## Matt Peacock

*Jeff*,

I have to confess I looked to dictionary.com to "jog my memory" on that one. I often find words that I like the sound of, relatives get annoyed when I start dropping them into random conversation.

*John*,

I was thinking about getting one of those, to do the sides of the boxes. I cut the holes on one of the L/R speakers today, took longer than planned because my DIY circle cutting jig exploded (I told you everything I touched exploded!), so I had to make a new one (which was infact much better and has no chance of exploding). I was surprised at how neat it all turned out, I'm very pleased.


I'll be getting my digi camera back soon so I'll post a couple of photos and see what people think/notice anything I haven't.


Matt


----------



## SnowDog12

*Jeff*,


I only paid about $70 for the router table, but you can spend much more of course. Mine is just a basic one, and in my opinion well worth the money. On practice pieces of wood, I was finding that I tended to "round off" when I came to the end, so this thing makes that impossible. Very nice results.

*Joe* -


Thanks for the tips, troubleshooting and otherwise. I'm fairly certain that everything is wired ok, it was just the cabinet really not being sealed or completed. I went to a local Meiers to get the foam pad and when I got it home it was just as thin as the other stuff! So, I'm going to take your advice and glue it together, kind of doubling up.


A question - how "accurate" are a lot of you doing your foam liners? I just kind of winged mine and in some places it has as much as a 1/2" of gap on either side. Will that make a difference? Do I need to cut it much more accurately?


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> A question - how "accurate" are a lot of you doing your foam liners? I just kind of winged mine and in some places it has as much as a 1/2" of gap on either side. Will that make a difference? Do I need to cut it much more accurately?



You will be fine... The foam is not real critical at all as long as you get the surfaces (mostly) covered as specified in the plans.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

If we can make it until Sept. 17, this thread will be one year old (that's when you got involved. Ted initiated it on the 15th, but I don't think he checks in anymore). I'm curious, how many people have now built some kind of speker and what?

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


Ted last checked in on 5/23 (I think). He had been very busy building DIY speakers, just not as public with his construction progress. He did include a link to his web-site. I was impressed...


I'm pretty much through with the DIY Speaker construction for the theater, although like you, I'm thinking about others for upstairs. The den could use a better set of front speakers for its surround sound system. I also have a set of stators I built over 20 years ago (approx 1977) for a set of electrostatic speakers I'd love to finish for the living room.


The stators got packed up when we moved into a house from an apartment in 1978 and have never been completed. There was always so much to do around the house and I never had the time to get back to them.


I have lost count of the number of folks we inspired to build their own DIY speakers. I know that other designs besides the Audax HT series have been mentioned (and constructed). I know a few have built, or are considering the Audax HT series after reading and following our progress. I expect that others will follow as long as the parts and plans are available.


Will this thread still be alive in another month... I think it will. As of today, it had over 24,000 views. It seems there has been quite a bit of interest.


I can't wait to see the subwoofer array that James puts together. It will allow us to say "If you think my subwoofer is big... take a look at this guys..."










Off Topic, but still DIY. This past weekend I started on a ticket booth for our theater. You can see my posterboard prototype in this thread. 


Joe L.

Let the sawdust fly...


----------



## cgmoore

I haven't yet, but doing so features prominently in my HT "grand vision". Gotta start socking away some bread...


Is the center the best place to start? What amps are you guys using? I am thinking of Outlaw.


----------



## SnowDog12

I for one have certainly been inspired by this thread, and am about a quarter of the way through the project. I would not have considered this project had it not been for the many and varied posts made by so many thoughtful contributors, and truthfully, it was Joe's well documented project that really pushed me in this direction. I was originally considering some Infiniti or Polk speakers, but was attracted to the idea of not only building somethiing myself (I'm a die hard DIY Linux geek), but being able to surpass in quality what my budget would have originally allowed for, which was roughly $1K. That doesn't allow for very much when you're talking commercial speakers, but when you switch that money over to just parts for a kit like the Audax, it more or less amplifies your spending power.


For anyone coming in new to this thread, I'm planning on doing up some kind of FAQ for the Audax kit by incorporating alot of what has already been written by others with a lot of connecting stuff so that a complete neophite like myself will be able to do most of this stuff without hopefully having to ask too many questions.


As for where to start, although Joe did his center channel first, I'm doing mine in reverse by doing the rear surrounds. My thinking is that they're smaller, "easier", and any cosmetic boo-boos I make are less likely to be noticed since they're in the rear of the room as opposed to the center which is, well, front and center!


As for amps, I use a Denon 1803 which suits my purposes just fine. I know there are vastly more complicated and or "higher quality" amps out there, but I honestly wonder what advantage I would gain by going beyond a $500 integrated reciever/amp when I have such a relatively modest sized room (15x15), and no needs beyond a standard 5.1/6.1 speaker setup. But that's just me of course. Your mileage may vary (and budget).


----------



## Jeff Hovis

John,

I also have a Denon 1803. I've thought about upgrading it but I'd have to go to a 3803 to get significantly better and I believe they are over $1k. The 1803 is plenty for my system and has a lot nice features for the money.


I built the sonosub first, then the center, then the fronts.

Jeff


----------



## Johnla

Jeff, if you look around.

You can get the Denon 3803 for $850 or maybe even a bit less from a authorized Denon dealer. Retail on them is $1199, but many are selling them for in the mid $800 range. As I was quoted $850 for one, and with no haggling at all even. Right after just walking into my local Denon dealer for the first time.


----------



## downhill

I'm thinking of my own design for the center using a box just about the same as the Audax...the 3 way design seems to solve a few problems with laying a speaker on it's side..


For the Woofers...2 Hi-Val F's..6 inch woofers....very smooth...


1 TC08SD49-08 Vifa shielded midbass. This looks to be decient for the 3 and a half inch size....


And a Vifa XT25TG30-04 tweeter...this gets some decient reviews around the net for the money..


I bought software for working out the crossovers and the box but I'll still need to spend eternity figuring it all out..


----------



## selmerakt

I've been lurking here for quite a while now, and am currently building the Audax center speaker (thanks to all the great info in this thread!) I just got my kit from Madisound today, and have a couple simple (probably dumb) questions about wiring the crossovers.

- For the sub-enclosure, did you just drill a hole for the wires, and use some silicone sealant or GOOP to plug the hole?

- For the crossovers, I'm assuming that I just run separate wires from each crossover to the binding posts. So there will be 3 wires coming off each post... is that right?


Thanks again for all the help and great reading material! This project has been a lot of fun, and I can't wait to hear it when it's done! (I'm almost done with the box construction, I just need to rabbit the holes for flush mounting the drivers, find a 3/4" roundover bit for the front edges, and glue the front and top panels on...)


-aaron


----------



## J. L.

aaron,


> Quote:
> For the sub-enclosure, did you just drill a hole for the wires, and use some silicone sealant or GOOP to plug the hole?



You have it exactly right. I actually mounted the tweeter crossover in the bottom of the midrange sub-enclosure, drilled a small hole through the back, and sealed the wires to the terminal cup and to the midrange crossover in it with caulking compound. I used the same caulking compound along all the seams of the sub-enclosure to make it air tight. I had mounted the midrange crossover on the bottom of the enclosure behind one of the woofers. A wire from it also had to be fed into the sub-enclosure to feed the midrange driver.


I put plenty of glue on the top edge of the sub-enclosure prior to gluing on the top of the cabinet and sealed it from the inside with more caulk by reaching in through the driver opening.



> Quote:
> For the crossovers, I'm assuming that I just run separate wires from each crossover to the binding posts. So there will be 3 wires coming off each post... is that right?



Exactly. The terminal cup on the rear of the enclosure will have three sets of wires attached to it, one from each of the three crossover boards. Make sure you keep track of "polarity" of the wires. Mine had one wire tinned and the other bare copper. I designated the copper one for use as the positive polarity lead. That way, even after running all three wires, I could attach all three copper wires to the red terminal cup post and all three tinned (silver colored) wires to the black post.


I'm honored... your first post was addressed to this thread.. Welcome to the DIY speaker ranks. I doubt you will be disappointed with the results.


Joe L.


----------



## J. L.

downhill,


You might try entering in the Audax HT crossover and drivers into your CAD program to get a feel how it works. Then, work with it on your own design with your drivers.


Basically, you want the crossover points well within the range of each driver and to get the output level of each driver matched. Typically, tweeters are more sensitive and need to be padded to reduce their output relative to the midrange and woofer.


Good luck.


Joe L.


----------



## downhill

Thanks for the info J. L. ...and that I do understand. As well as reading a few simple graphs....And I can wire my own crossovers without any problems.....


Even though them speakers get good reviews....as a lot of different DIY's already know........


I won't know anything till I assemble everything and try it..


If anyone's interested, I could post a preliminary drawing of the crossovers...


----------



## Johnla

downhill



I'm more curious as to what software you have for doing the crossover specs, and how well it works as the end result.


As the entire crossover thing, and the different ways it can be done, has me puzzled. As there are a few new Dayton speakers, that parts express just came out with, that I'd like to see how they would match up with some others. But the crossover thing has me stumped. Because I know it's more than just the speakers "specs" that have to be taken into account when you try to come up with a crossover for it. As that is where the crossover "tweaking" comes in, and that is where I also start to get even more lost on the subject, than I was before.


----------



## Georg Ollapally

Hi Folks


Greetings from Bangalore, India.


I too am in the final stages of the Audax Main L-R having completed the Centre channel. I have been bitten bythe DIY speakers for many years now, having completed two speaker systems-one is an AriaR designed by the same designer Joe D'Appolito-it uses Raven R1 tweeters and Focal mids in an MTM design, similar to the Main L-R of the Audax HT system. The other system is a 2-way using Scanspeak drivers. Also two powered DIY subs, one sealed and the other uses a passive radiator.


DIY is the way to go, the commercial mfrs cant afford to go our way.


George


----------



## J. L.

Johnla,


Once you get a basic crossover designed (crossover points and relative amplitude), you can add things like:

*baffle step compensation*

This compensates for the fact that frequencies whose wavelength is less than the width of your front baffle get a boost in amplitude from being reflected off of the baffle toward the listener. Longer wavelengths will be several dB down. The baffle step compensation network attempts to compensate for this.

*notch filters*

A notch filter attempts to correct for a specific peak (or dip) in the frequency response of a driver.

*zobel network*

This network attempts to flatten the impedance of the entire speaker system as seen by the amplifier to make it easier to drive. (lots of amplifiers do not like very low impedances)


Now you know why I decided on a proven design. I wanted to concentrate on the physical construction and not worry about the design. I know I could have done it, especially with the help and support of others on the web. Consider this... I started on the Audax HT series last September... Imagine how long I might have taken if I also had to design, test, and tweak the crossovers. As it was it took me nearly 10 months.


George,

I'v never heard the R1 tweeters but expect they would sound great. Sounds like more DIY speakers will be in your future.


Joe L


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by J. L._
> *Johnla,
> 
> 
> Once you get a basic crossover designed
> 
> d on a proven design.
> 
> I wanted to concentrate on the physical construction and not worry about the design. I know I could have done it, especially with the help and support of others on the web. Consider this... I started on the Audax HT series last September... Imagine how long I might have taken if I also had to design, test, and tweak the crossovers. As it was it took me nearly 10 months.
> *



Joe

I do understand why you did it that way, as did I with what I bought. As it included the crossover design with it. But I also know it could possibly be done better. If you look here at North Creek, you can see they offer some improved/revised crossovers for some mighty fine higher end speakers that have been made. And even in some of the places I seen for DIY, you see mention that they are always "playing" with their crossovers to find a better sound for what they have made.

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Stage/StageCrossover.htm 

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/801web.html 

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/LoudspeakerProjects.html 

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/ArielFAQ.html


----------



## Johnla

Hi Andrikos.


Well in all my searching so far, I have even found places that show you how to make speaker enclosures using concrete. So marble should work very well, if not way better than concrete does.

And one thing is for sure, they could look damn nice in the process in using that material for speakers!


----------



## selmerakt

I noticed that you guys have been using 2" eggcrate foam inside your speakers... would I lose anything by using 2 layers of the thin foam provided my Madisound?

(I haven't found any of the normal 2" eggcrate stuff locally yet, they all seem to be thinner, with "fancy" patterns, etc. I guess I could try 1 layer of the flat foam glued to 1 layer of thin eggcrate foam)


-aaron


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by selmerakt_
> *I noticed that you guys have been using 2" eggcrate foam inside your speakers... would I lose anything by using 2 layers of the thin foam provided my Madisound?
> 
> (I haven't found any of the normal 2" eggcrate stuff locally yet, they all seem to be thinner, with "fancy" patterns, etc. I guess I could try 1 layer of the flat foam glued to 1 layer of thin eggcrate foam)
> 
> 
> -aaron*



Try looking in a Sears or a Wal-Mart for one of those foam mattress pads they sell. Most of them are under $30, and some are also made of the egg-crate pattern as well.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Wal-Mart has the stuff in the Bedding Dept. It will probably be pink and they have all sizes. They are under $20. I bought mine there and once you open the package the pad will expand. Use 3M Super 77 glue to hold it.

jeff


----------



## downhill

Johnla



You ask about the software for crossovers. I'm using HarrisTech's X-Over Pro and BassBox 6 Combo software.


You can find it at Parts Express..

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...ID=11110&DID=7 


And the PDF for more info..

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/500-927.pdf


----------



## Johnla

Wooooo. All of a sudden after seeing the price of it.

I'm not as curious about it as much now, as I was before...


----------



## Johnla

OK


This is a question that maybe someone here can answer.


If you were to look at these two graphs for two different mid/woofs. What do they suggest to tell you about the speaker itself as far as a guess to it's spec'd sound qualities.


One speaker is a 7" aluminum cone, and the other is a 6 1/2" pressure treated paper cone.

Both speakers are within $4 of Price of each other.


Here is the graphs for the 6 1/2" speaker.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-305.pdf 


And here are the ones for the 7" speaker.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-335g.pdf 



What I'm trying to do here, is understand how the specs on a graph for a speaker. MAY translate into how it somewhat sounds. What I'd like to do is try to figure out by the specs, what a speaker MAY sound like, compared to others.

In other words, if you have the "specs" for what is considered a proven and good sounding speaker, you should be able to use those specs somewhat as a baseline for comparison of other the speakers that are in that type and size range.

I know it can not replace how they actually sound to a person in a comparison of their sound qualities. But I'm wondering if the specs alone would hopefully get you in the ballpark of how they might sound in comparison.


For example, that particular 6 1/2" speaker, has gotten some very favorable reviews, and there are quite a few people that have provided designs for using them. Now if I were to consider the 7" speaker, to be used in those designs as a alternative to the 6 1/2", what do those graphs and specs tend to tell me that will be different about it if I were to do so?


----------



## Wombat2

I'm a novice and by no means an authority - but basicaly my understanding and what I will be looking for is a frequency curve as flat as possible over the range I am interested in. If two way then you are looking at 80-100 through to 3-5K for a mid-woofer and 3-5k to 20K+ for a tweeter and if a 3 way then something that slots in the middle with the tweeter coming in about 8-10k


David L


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Wombat2_
> *I'm a novice and by no means an authority - but basicaly my understanding and what I will be looking for is a frequency curve as flat as possible over the range I am interested in. If two way then you are looking at 80-100 through to 3-5K for a mid-woofer and 3-5k to 20K+ for a tweeter and if a 3 way then something that slots in the middle with the tweeter coming in about 8-10k
> 
> 
> David L*



No, that's not what I meant by the above post I made.

It was not for looking for crossovers, or how to determine the crossovers for them.

What I was looking for, is to use it as a way to compare one speaker to another somewhat. Just by using their specs and graphs.


----------



## Teran




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Johnla_
> *For example, that particular 6 1/2" speaker, has gotten some very favorable reviews, and there are quite a few people that have provided designs for using them. Now if I were to consider the 7" speaker, to be used in those designs as a alternative to the 6 1/2", what do those graphs and specs tend to tell me that will be different about it if I were to do so?*



The best way is probably to download a copy of WinISD, enter both drivers into its database, and model them. This won't tell you much about how they sound, though it will demonstrate why you shouldn't modify one aspect of a design unless you understand the design in its entirety.


If you swap out the 6.5" for the 7" alum you will not be happy. In the same sized box with the same size/length vent the 7" will show a noticable rise in response centered around 80Hz. If the crossover has any impedence compensation things could get really ugly.


The 7" alum starts to break up lower in frequency, too. In a two way with the crossover over 2K you will start to have problems.


Regarding JL's comment regarding Notch Filters being used for dips -- not a good idea. Same applies to using EQ to compensate for a dip. There is a bit of talk on Madisound about this at the moment.


----------



## J. L.

Teran,


I'll be the first one to admit that I have never designed a crossover. Nor have I ever specified drivers for a loudspeaker. I can only respond by repeating some of what I have read... applying a little of what I know...


I'll agree that using drivers that do not require special equalization or compensation in the crossover is a far better approach to loudspeaker design. Unfortunately, budget or surplus drivers available from Parts Express, MCM, Madisound, etc. are not always perfect.


The only reason I mentioned a notch filter was that the Audax HT uses one in one of its crossovers.


You mentioned "break-up" at certain frequencies. Sometimes, "waterfall" charts are available for drivers that show how they react when presented with pulses of sound. In a perfect speaker, the entire cone would move and stop instantly. In the real world, they do not. In a perfect world it would be weightless and have no inertia. In the real world, the cone does not move all at once and instantly. The "waterfall" charts can give some insight into how a driver will react within a given frequency range.


Since no driver is perfect, it gets pretty complicated. Can you predict what a driver will sound like by looking at the charts? No... But you can also eliminate many drivers from consideration if they exhibit characteristics in the frequency response or waterfall charts (within the target frequency range) that you do not desire.


All this said, many inexpensive speakers have no more than a single capacitor in line with the tweeter and run the woofer full range. Even I can figure out that the designer spent little or no time looking at the resulting frequency response... yet they are still in the market and still make many happy with their sound.


I do appreciate you pointing out to Johnla how the different drivers react when modeled in your CAD program. For many of us beginners, it helps to know what to look for when evaluating a driver and comparing it to others under consideration. Clearly, you have some experience in doing this. Thanks...


I'll repeat what I originally said... I wanted to concentrate on physical construction. That is why I chose a proven, professional design for my DIY HT speakers. It can get pretty complicated.


Joe L.


----------



## Johnla

Teran


Thanks, you are pretty much on the right track as to what info I was looking for. Now if I could just understand those graphs myself, it would be even better...


----------



## Teran

JL, I hope I didn't come across as a know-it-all because I certainly don't. But, alas, I probably did.


If you do a search you'll probably find a really lousy center channel speaker I wanted to build two years ago. Several people jumped in and told me I needed to learn quite a bit before I took on a from-scratch project. They were more than right. Thanks again to Mark Seaton! That young man not only knows a lot, but is good at making the knowledge he shares understandable.


----------



## Teran

Johnla,

Boards like Madisound and the Parts Express board are good places to lurk if you want to understand the basics of speaker design. Be prepared to take on a new hobby, though!


My own path began with the purchase of several drivers and an active crossover, the building of test enclosures, and a lot of fiddling and listening.


Based on my endeavors with those drivers I had the start of a basis for comparison to what everyone else was talking about. It left me a long way from being able to build a speaker, though. Building a kit for a friend and another proven design for another friend also gave me a benchmark to judge my efforts against. Next up was getting the necessary design software and measurement setup. With this I was finally ready to work with passive crossovers.


In all, I spent more money than I would have spent by building Linkwitz's Orions without ever building a speaker that sounded near as nice.


PE and Madisound often sponsor DIY events where people meet and show off their designs. I haven't yet been able to attend, but would suggest going to one of these to anyone interested in building their own design or modifying an existing design. They have them in Texas, DC, Ohio, Iowa, and many other places across the country.


----------



## Matt Peacock

Teran,

Although it wasn't directed at me I read your post and you didn't come across as a know-it-all.


Group,

The speakers are coming along nicely, I've had a few router problems (due to my lack of skill), but all's well. No doubt I'll run into questions soon enough.


Matt


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Matt,

Have you taken any photos? I'm going to keep a file with all these diy photos and put them on my site when I get my theater remodel complete.

jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Joe,

Since you now have nice speakers and a Barco 1208, I have to ask: Have you done any acoustical treatments to your room? I go back and forth on that one all the time. My front wall and side walls out 30" to my screen and speakers will be properly deadened with Homasote. It's $18/4x8 sheet at HD and that's just too expensive. The rest of my room currently has acoustic panels at the reflection points and will have shelves between two columns at the rear for some diffusion. My room is small enough that I could do the treatment with fabric for less than $1000. But, I'll still have a HT that is in a basement rec room and not totally dedicated space. The two columns in the rear with shelves also acts as a room divider.

jeff


----------



## Johnla

Teran


First just let me say, I do understand what you are trying to say, even though it may not appear that way.

So don't even think, that I do not appreciate any input, suggestions or comments that you might have. As I do appreciate them, as that is why I look and ask the questions in the first place.


I've had so many "hobbies" over the years, that I've lost count of all of them....

Some I have stayed with, others I have not. And I'll be the first to admit, that more than one or two of them ended up as being nothing more than a passing fad for me. And never really ended up at all, as being a hobby for me. Some you might say, ended up being a waste of time. But I look at it this way. No matter if I stayed with it or not, I have learned something from every project or hobby that I have decided to try. From some, I learned I should not have tried it. But hey, I did learn something from it at least..


I'm the kinda person who just jumps into things sometimes, just for the heck of it. Even though there are easier routes to follow. I like to tinker, just to see what happens when you do things. I guess this comes from being a mechanic. Which is probably why I own so many tools, and yes many woodworking tools as well. Even though some of them get very little use, and others even no use yet...









But when it comes to a project that needs a certain tool, I'll just buy it, even if I know I may only use it once or twice, as I hate to borrow others tools. I guess that part comes from being a mechanic also....


So now this brings me to this speaker building thing. For me now it just looks like a fun thing to do. And what I have decided I want to do, and in fact have ordered what I need to do this. Is build a MTM cabinet with a removable front baffle, that I will seal with some form of weather stripping. This way I can make a few removable front baffle plates, so I can try some various things out, such as MTM, TMM and maybe TMW setups, to see what they end up doing. And by using drivers that are for the most part $35 or less, I will make only one "test" design, when I wish to try out something, and not a pair, as to keep the cost of drivers down. Unless it really seems to stand out as being good, then a second one would be needed as the final test. So yeah, I may end up with a stack of unused drivers in time, which is why all the high end/high priced drivers are not even being considered at all.

My end result I hope, then will result in a tower floor standing pair, that may be of the MTM or the TMM or even possibly a TMW design. I'm looking to make the front pair good enough in sound on music, that I can use them to replace my Klipsch LaScala's that I now have and use for music. As I really need something that ends up taking la lot less floor space than the LaScala's take, which is the only reason I even want to replace them

YEAH I know! Making something to replace those Klipsch's is a tall order. But I think I may be able to do it.

My other desire is to make a "clone" of the Carver Amazing III's, as I'm still kicking myself for not buying a new pair of them for $650, back when Circuit City was dropping the brand, and Carver was going under. Now a set of replacement ribbons alone for them, go for $1200 for a pair.


----------



## J. L.

Teran,


I took no offense... I'm sure you do not know it all










I, like Johnla, have many hobbies. Most I still enjoy, some I am active in, others I am not as active. My first hobby was electronics, then Ham-Radio, then computers, then boating, etc... I have had a Home-Theater for over 20 years so it is not a new hobby. I purchased a 72 inch CRT front projection TV in January of 1983. About 10 years ago I added surround sound. (Dolby Pro-logic) About a year ago I upgraded to the Barco 1208 and started on the remodel of my theater.


I have enough confidence in my own abilities to undertake DIY projects. Like many who have contributed to this thread, the DIY loudspeaker project is not a hobby of its own, but part of the Home-Theater interest/hobby. I may never build another "Center Channel," but who knows, I may apply what I have learned elsewhere.


It is pretty easy to interpret frequency response charts. The flatter, the better. If flat over a very wide frequency range, even better.


Waterfall charts are another animal. I'm not as clear on how to interpret them. If you learned how to read the driver waterfall charts and feel you are able to describe how to interpret them to us who are not audio engineers, then I know I would love to learn more.


It is a smart person who admits "they don't know" when they need guidance. Most of the posts in this thread were from smart people







. I may never design a loudspeaker, but with the assistance of more knowledgeable people, even those who do not know it all, I know I could.


Joe L.


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


I have done nothing special to treat my theater for sound. I do need to find a few more rattles, but that is nowhere as bad as it was a few weeks ago when I finished my subwoofer.


I am pretty lucky in that my room had a fair amount of sound treatment before I started.


The ceiling in my theater is an acoustic drop-ceiling. Above it, between the floor joists is fiberglass insulation. The floor is carpeted. Between them, I have a fair amount of sound absorbing surface.


About half of my wall surface is taken up by bookshelves. The books, i think, tend to diffuse the sound. I have thought of making acoustic panels for the rear of the bookshelves, but that will be another project to tweak the sound properties in the room.


I have one wall that could benefit from acoustic treatment, eventually it will be done as I re-finish it to hide the closet doors on it. I too plan on finishing the walls in my theater with fabric. When I do, that one wall with the closet doors will have some sound absorbing material applied to it and the doors hidden behind false panels.


Oh yes... I've had a chance over the past few weeks to watch a few movies using my new DIY Tempest subwoofer. Wow... what a difference. You made a wise choice making it first.


Joe L.


----------



## Johnla

J.L


If you ever decide you want to make some more sawdust in a DIY speaker project.


This is one I think could keep you busy for at least a week or two, in building a set of these......










http://indigo.ie/~walton/ariel1.html 





Just the thought of building something like this, is mind boggling.

Trying tp do a set of these, would certainly drive me insane!



And here is how the "Pro's" do the same project.

http://64.177.77.229/Esoteric%20Enclosures/ariel.htm 


Still insane, when you look at that baffle setup it requires to do this design.

http://64.177.77.229/images/sides%20...%20unglued.JPG 



I give both of these guys a lot of credit. But even more so for the first one listed. As he did not have the benefit of the CAD/CAM CNC equipment that the "Pro" has.

It's just amazing to me what you can do with some wood, and some plans, and a few power tools.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Johnla,

Speaking of Transmission Line speakers, my winter project will be the Seas Thor T-Line. I'm going to buy the components and XOs from Madisound. At least that's my plan for now...things could change. The audioXpress review is below:
http://www.madisound.com/audioXpress...r%20Review.pdf


----------



## Teran

Waterfall graphs or Cumulative Spectral Decay Plots show stored energy and how that energy is released over time (the 3rd axis). Ideally a speaker would not store any energy and all you would see is a line similar to a frequency response graph.


If the speaker is storing energy it will release it over time. In a waterfall graph this will appear as additional plots on the 3rd axis.


So, an ideal waterfall graph would show all the energy being released at the same time as the original signal (0ms) with little energy being released as time goes on -- a sharp drop off on the time axis.


----------



## J. L.

Teran,


Thanks for the explanation. If I understand you correctly:


If I strike a church bell, it rings. That is where "stored energy, released over time" is a desirable property.


In a loudspeaker, if presented with a sharp wavefront, we want it to not "ring" but instead stop making sound the instant the signal fed to it stops. The "ringing" is an undesirable property.


Now I'll go looking for "waterfall" charts that show good and bad examples of both types of drivers.


Joe L


----------



## Teran

Good example. Ribbons and planars, having little mass, will usually show little stored energy and a sharp drop-off. A dome with more mass will drop off slower. A well designed driver will be consistent across its frequency range.

Under-damped rear chambers can also store energy. Poorer drivers will store energy at certains frequencies so you see a hill coming at you in the graph.


----------



## Johnla

OK


Questions of the pro, con nature....



Ported box. What are the pro cons for it?


Sealed box. Again, pros and cons for it?




Of all the many speakers I have ever had.

Only a pair of B.I.C speakers from back in the 70's, were the only ported speakers I have ever owned. And it's big "claim" back then was, that they sounded "bigger" then they actually were. Which for the most part was true as far as their bass output went. But otherwise they were not that great of a speaker, other than the fact they could play louder then some larger and higher priced speakers of that era. They were more or less a very cheaply made speaker, and not much more than that.


The Klipsch LaScalas I have now, in a way some "might" consider them to a ported box. But in reality they are not a ported box design.


----------



## Teran

Generally, ported speakers will play lower. However, this comes at a price. Since you have additional output thru the port, and this output is not in phase with the speaker driver, you will have cancellations and/or comb effects.


Ported speakers roll off 4th order (24dB/octave) while sealed speakers roll off 2nd order (12dB/octave). It is generally accepted that sealed speakers are easier to integrate with a sub.


----------



## CoZZm0




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Johnla_
> *OK
> 
> 
> Questions of the pro, con nature....
> 
> 
> 
> Ported box. What are the pro cons for it?
> 
> 
> Sealed box. Again, pros and cons for it?
> 
> 
> *



Ported boxes or 'bass reflex' designs allow for lower extension of bass with a more extended rumble. Generally ported boxes can go lower than sealed, but will not be as "punchy" as a sealed box. Ported is good for movies with low rumbling, but ported boxes suffer from port noise, even though flares and things are available for the ports to lower the air resistance, on long excursion they will still make noise. Ported boxes are generally more efficient to drive when compared with sealed boxes. A ported box response will fall off quite quickly below the tuning frequency.


Sealed boxes or 'acoustic suspension' designs provide a tight puncy bass. They can still rumble, but require more power to do so than the same driver in a ported box. cooling of the voice coil is not as efficient in sealed boxes as there is no exchange of room temperature air inside the box. Sealed boxes don't suffer from port noise or 'chuffing' as its known, as there is no way for air to get out (at least there shouldn't be!). Sealed box response falls off slowly when going really low, and doesn't have a drop off as sharp as a ported box when below the tuning freq.


In my personal opinion, if you're listening to music and want fast tight bass, go for sealed, if you're into movies with rumble and boom go for ported. if you're into a bit of both, for my personal taste ported still wins over sealed.


Do remember that sealed designs, when properly implemented can sound absolutely fantastic and would certainly be a welcome addition to my HT, but the ported designs do have their advantages.


----------



## Johnla

Thanks guys!


You both pretty well reinforced what I was thinking about a ported box.

And I want the musical side to be more than just "average" and like I mentioned, I have only had one other set of speakers, the B.I.C's that were ported. Everything else I've had has been a sealed box design so I know and like "that" kind of sound. And I have a 12" sub for my HT setup. So I'm going to stick with the sealed box for my "home-brew" speakers that I hope to use in replacing my Klipsch.

Plus I really don't want to have to mess with tuning a port also, with all the other stuff involved.

And lack of power to drive a sealed box, is not a problem that I will have or have ever had in the past. Nor was that a ever problem before I had the higher than average in efficiency Klipsch, that I now have.


Unless of course you want to go wayyyy back to my first few stereos........

And back to when I used to drive those poor 30 and 60 wpc amps to clipping, and the numerous tweeters that were blown out, and replaced under warranty way back then.....









I even wasted the tweeters in a nice pair of JBL L166's back in the early 70's with a 60 wpc amp.

After that I learned my lesson, and since then have always bought some decent and above average power for my systems.

And I have never "blown" another speaker or tweeter since then either.


----------



## CoZZm0

Don't forget that you still have to "tune" a sealed box to the right size for the driver you're using or else you could get some quite bad peaks or dips in repsonse...


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by CoZZm0_
> *Don't forget that you still have to "tune" a sealed box to the right size for the driver you're using or else you could get some quite bad peaks or dips in repsonse...*



Yeah, I know that.

But there are many so many MTM setups that have been done in both ported and sealed, that I think either way can be just as hard or just as easy to tune as the other.

And maybe that the port would be just a easier way to maybe hide a somewhat bad design in crossover or speaker selections. But I'm pretty much decided that the sealed way is the one I want to go with.

Not to mention my 20+ years of racing and hanging around race tracks in general, has not helped me with having a pair of "golden ears" in any way. So it might also have to be a real noticeable problem maybe for me to hear it also. As a good part of my high frequency hearing got lost at some race track, many years ago..









And that's something that I'm not real proud of now. Some of my racing yes, that I'm proud of. But the lost of some of my hearing from it, no.


But I'm also doing a few removable "throw away" front baffle plates as I mentioned before for my final box setup, so I can always try out using a front port design if I want to, before I finalize and glue on the front baffle in it's final design. This will also be very helpful in doing my center channel speaker box, in however I vary it from just a normal MTM setup, with the tweeter placement.


Right now I'm just going to stick with the mid/woofs SA071 and tweeters SA-TW1, and the crossovers as well as a pair of the MTM boxes that I got from http://www.stryke.com/ for a baseline to use. As both his drivers and crossovers are used in his sealed box MTM setup. So I should have a good starting point. Before I move them over to my other boxes with the removable baffles and that are 2" higher and 4" deeper than the Stryke box design is.

Then I want to try out some other mid-priced drivers, to see if I can come up with anything better as far as sound quality, over the Stryke drivers. And maybe do some crossover tweaking as well. The Stryke boxes are nice, but after looking at them for awhile last week, I decided I also want something a bit better, as his have no braces at all inside of them. Which I have come to find is very unusual in a MTM box, and even many other smaller box designs as well.


----------



## Matt Peacock

Jeff,


I have taken a few photos, not as many as I'd liked, but as soon as my friend (who has my camera) emails me them I'll put them up. I would have liked to take some at every step, but that's not possible anymore.


Sorry for the late reply, I've been up to my knees in decorating.


Matt


----------



## jsalk

Here is the best speaker I have ever built. In fact, it is the best speaker I have ever heard (and I've worked in recording studios for over 30 years).


- Jim


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## brothermaynard

How much is the kit? What kind of drivers does it use? You did a good job on those Jim.


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## jsalk

brothermaynard -


Thanks for the kind words. This is a new design and I don't currently have a kit available. I am investigating putting one together and may offer one in the near future. If you want to be notified of kit availability, feel free to email me at [email protected] and I will put you on the list.


Details: The drivers are the Seas Excel W18EX mid-woofer and the G2 ribbon tweeter. I built the GR Research Criterion when it was first issued and fell in love with the G2 (which is essentially flat out to about 40,000Hz). I built the Ellis 1801's and discovered the W18 to be the most detailed mid-woofer available today.


I wondered what the combination of these two drivers would be like and was discussing it with Dennis Murphy. He loved the idea and volunteered to do the crossover.


He did his usual marvelous job. The speaker is essentially flat to well beyond audibility. To a person, everyone who has heard it (not too many people to date) has indicated that it is the most detailed and transparent speaker they have ever heard...by a significant margin! Most people are actually stunned when they first hear it.


It will make the rounds to a number of DIY events this fall, so I'm sure there will be a number of reviews and write-ups in the coming months.


I am currently building a number of pairs for people who have read about them and ordered pairs. Each is custom-finished to order. Finish choices include a wide variety of exotic woods with a satin or high-gloss piano lacquer finish. Details are available at the link below (this site is still under construction so not all the links work, but most of the critical information is there).


Feel free to email me with any questions.


- Jim


----------



## SnowDog12

jsalk - those are gorgeous speakers, even without hearing them!


But back on to some more dumb questions - Don't know how I missed this, but I just realized that in the Audax plans the front baffle is 1" on all speakers. I'm using 3/4" sheathed MDF. Will that lack of 1/4" on those front baffles make a significant difference? After reviewing, I also noticed that Joe (JL) was using up to 1.5" thickness on his front baffles. I've only finished the rear surrounds and haven't yet glued the fronts on the L, R, or C channel speakers yet. Any words of wisdom on this?


----------



## SVonhof

jsalk, I agree with SnowDog12 that they look great, but since you are selling them and they are not available as a kit and the plans are not available.... They don't really qualify for a "Very High Quality DIY speaker" as the title of this thread implies. Now, if you were to share the info, then that would be different. And, not to be mean, but I see your post as more of an advertizment, which is not cool. How would everyone like it if people from Polk, Boston Acoustics, Cambridge Audio...came on and started posting all over the place?


----------



## J. L.

Snowdog12,


Actually, I used two thicknesses of 3/4 inch MDF glued together for the front and rear panel of the Center, Left, and Right enclosures.


On the rear surrounds, I used a single 3/4 inch thickness of MDF for the rear panel and two 3/4 inch thicknesses glued together for the front.


Does it make a difference...yes...theoretically, a little.

Can you hear the difference... possibly...

Is even 1 1/2 inches thick enough... who knows...

Is it worth the trouble on the rear channels now that you have built the enclosures... you have to make the call.


The goal is to make the panels rigid enough so that they do not vibrate.


Most of the speakers you will find at Circuit City will have 3/4 inch walls (or less) you will be in good company with a 3/4 inch front panel thickness.


As an alternative to making the rear channel front baffle thicker, you might think of putting " Black Hole " or some other dampening material (Example of Self Adhesive Dampening Sheets here) More Examples of Sound Deadening Sheets on the inside of the front baffle. The idea is to keep it from vibrating. (thicker, more dense, heavier are all ways to accomplish this)


Of course if you have not yet rounded over the front corners, you can glue on a second layer of MDF and then use a flush trimming bit to trim the outer layer even with the first. That is essentially how I built my enclosures.


Joe L.


----------



## Matt Peacock

John,

The only dumb question is one that's not asked.


I was politely told by my DIY superstore chap that 1" MDF did not exist, he even went on to explain the manufacturing reasons why, bless him. I didn't argue so instead ended up sandwiching 3/4" and 1/4" MDF together, and a flush trimming bit on the router makes for a perfect finish, it might be a good idea for the front speakers. I regret doing the fronts first, I think making the mistakes on a rear speaker would have been a better idea.


Jeff,

Here's two of the pictures I took, not the best two but they're quite revealing. You can see that on the speaker on the left, I glued the baffle before rounding over the woofer holes, therefore only 1/4 of them are rounded over. I'm not sure how I'm going to tackle this. I was more wise on the speaker on the right, which is the "good" speaker, in all respects. It's interesting that you can hardly see the glue in real life, but the pictures have really picked it up. I bought two port tubes that were the exact dimensions needed, and will allow a perfect exterior finish. I'll post those photos if I ever get them back.


Matt (sorry if the image filesizes are too big, they're in seperate posts, I'll edit them with smaller ones if I get complaints)


----------



## Matt Peacock

Overview, 124KB:


----------



## Matt Peacock

Closeup, 128KB.


When I get the rest of them I'll host them on my webspace and link them so they show in the message, as Joe does.


Matt


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## Teran




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SVonhof_
> *jsalk, I agree with SnowDog12 that they look great, but since you are selling them and they are not available as a kit and the plans are not available.... They don't really qualify for a "Very High Quality DIY speaker" as the title of this thread implies. Now, if you were to share the info, then that would be different. And, not to be mean, but I see your post as more of an advertizment, which is not cool. How would everyone like it if people from Polk, Boston Acoustics, Cambridge Audio...came on and started posting all over the place?*



Jeez, chill dude. Look back at his first post. These were the best speakers _he_ ever made. DIY. He doesn't have a kit, he didn't use a kit, and as yet he isn't selling. I believe Dennis Murphy did his crossover based on his driver selection and enclosure design. If I were going passive I would only hope to have a speaker turn out as nice.


The manufacturers you listed are simply that. They manufacturer. They don't craft. Many of them don't even "craft" a prototype.


DIY guys that go the distance to craft a speaker with excellent sound and a cabinet that goes beyond furniture grade naturally get inquiries about building for other people. It is natural.


You take a speaker to a DIY event and it gets noticed. The people at the event don't necessarily want one (they'd going with their own projects) but people that lurk and visit forums and boards read about it in a write-up for the event and sometimes latch onto that speaker as their goal. And your wife's brother.


You get a lot of emails, people want to see pictures, and you soon decide that you'll answer everyone's questions by bringing up a web site. After all, you want to get on to your next project if you can.


If you are going to make it easier for them you might even link to parts suppliers or even carry the parts yourself. It depends on how many you have committed yourself to make. Realize, a lot of these speakers are still being built with a bit of "favor". Sam wants his in this finish, Bill want's his floor standing. Jim Salk is being paid to learn and I imagine not more.


Yeah, in today's world you almost _have_ to set it up as a business. If you don't then the Feds and your local tax collector look at you funny. If you already in business for yourself then of course you do.


Is he as innocent as Dennis Murphy who keeps a hard line between business and personal? No. But he isnt' an Adire, Stryke, PE, or Madisound, either. Or how about Rick Craig, Ellis, and others? They all post outside or their own boards, but do so in a very restrained manner. Their posts are about the technical aspects of their products and are not about business.


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## Matt Peacock

Teran,

While I agree with most of your points, I agree more with Scott. This is a DIY speaker thread, the emphasis on DIY. When I first found it I was looking for advice on a current project, as I expect most people are that search for it, the whole point of researching DIY speakers is because for whatever reason you don't want to buy.


I'm sure the speakers sound amazing, they certainly look very impressive, but I can't help but feel that it wasn't entirely relavent, and was more advertising than saying perhaps "when I was building these [picture], which you can order from this site, I ran into this problem and solved it this way". Had it have been in another more relavent thread, then I wouldn't see any problem at all.


Matt


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## SVonhof

Sorry jsalk and Teran, I didn't mean to come off as harsh or anything. That is the problem with forums and e-mail. You cannot get a sense for how the person is feeling when they write something. I did not have a red face when witing it, I was just stating what I felt after readin the posts.


I do however stand by the fact that jsalk seems to be doing more advertizing than helping somebody that wants to build a DIY speaker. I don't have a problem with somebody making money off of what they see as a great design, that is what this world is about. Maybe jsalk can give us some pics of the inside of the cabinet or some drawings and crossover layouts for some of the designs he is not trying to sell


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## Teran

I don't know. I have seen Jim participate in many discussions. He has always seemed willing to help out someone looking for help.


Some of the people that are most helpful to DIY builders as far as knowledge and education are those that do it as a business. They won't hesitate to tell you to buy someone elses product in order for you to get what you want.


For instance, the guy at SVS posted on an IB thread the other day saying essentially that if the poster was up to it, that an IB would be preferable over his own product. If asked, he would have imparted a lot of knowledge about IB and subs in general. But because he was a business, people ignored him. I know he would have provided true and accurate technical info because I have seen him do it again and again on other boards.


Yes, some people get caught up in egos and think that what they sell is the best thing since whatever and that if people would only buy their product they wouldn't ever have to buy another whatever again. But, most aren't like that.


----------



## Teran

BTW, Scott, nice theatre.


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## SVonhof

Thanks Teran.


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## Matt Peacock

I can't believe there are actually real adults in this forum. Most forums I frequent seem to have the "I'm right you're wrong and now I'm going to flame you" clan. It would have really kicked off by now.


Good stuff. And yes Scott, nice theatre. It's a shame I can't donate that amount of space. I had a new TV cabinet delivered today, it looks quite impressive. What's cunning is that it'll support a _much_ larger screen than we currently own...


Matt


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## SVonhof

No flames from me! No reason. Matt, that also means you can possibly fit bigger speakers in there around the TV too! If you go 16x9 the center channel could be even bigger!


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## Jeff Hovis

SnowDog12, aka John,

I did the same thing that Joe did and made my baffles 1.5" thick.


Matt,

Those speaker cabinets are looking really good. Thanks for the pics. I like the rounded internal baffle. I didn't round the edges of my internal baffle. I did round the internal and external port holes. I think I'll round everything when I build the Thor T-Line speakers this winter. As for good speaker/bad speaker. My two fronts are basically the same. However, my center, which is the first of the Audax set that I built has some definite cabinet and veneer mistakes.


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## J. L.

Matt,


Initially, I thought that jsalk was joining in the DIY discussion to show the work he had done on his beautiful speakers. In that respect it was a contributing post. He described how he chose two drivers, and then had a crossover designed.


His post then described how he was building them to order for several people. In that respect, the post was a bit of an advertisement.


Then, he made this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=290407 

At that point, it looked to me like the link was to advertise his commercial site. In fact, his web-site was designed better, and looked better than some commercial sites I have seen on the web for much larger companies. Once I saw his link to his business, I figured he would get some contact from the forum moderators.


Scott, it looks to me like you beat the moderators to the task.


I too would simply ask that jsalk contribute as a DIY'er to this thread and not place the unwelcome advertisements. Contributing in that manner, his input will be most welcome. It seems he has a lot of experience he could share with the rest of us.


Joe L.


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## downhill

Too much to do about nothing...but in this day and age....I suppose I'm not supprised....


Them are some nice speakers and if he's going to offer them as a kit...I'm interested..I'm kinda glad he posted this.........


Other than that......I'm bailing from my subscription to this thread...........living in where I do, I'm surrounded by outraged peeps........it sucks the soul right out of me...


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## Teran

I really don't get it. I really don't.


He has nice cabinets and no one asks about construction techniques. He uses some very good drivers and no questions. He used a crossover design by someone well regarded in DIY and semi-pro circles. Again no questions.


Is knowledge here only to be sought from the amateur?


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## brothermaynard

This was a fun diversion but if it is not a problem I would like the drama to move to its own thread. Overall I think this year long discussion on quality DIY speakers has stayed remarkably focused and think it should stay on topic.


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## jsalk

Sorry for all the angst I apparently caused. The power has been out for a while now, so this is the first chance I've had to get back on-line.


A few points:


To those who were offended by my posts, I offer my sincere apologies. When I first completed the project, I posted some pics. A few people asked if the speakers might be available. I told them that if they were, I would do a web site and post info when it was up and running. This I did. I am guilty.


But it is not my first post. I have also posted lengthy, detailed responses (here and on many other forums) to many and varied questions. I have learned a great deal from others and if I am able to share some of this information, I gladly do so.


I also maintain a site (with the help of other volunteers) at www.audioDIYcentral.com , dedicated to the DIY audio community. It is a relatively new effort and was designed to provide a central repository of information to promote the hobby and help people get started in the DIY community. I takes a great deal of time, but others have helped me and it is my way to return the favor.


As for these speakers, I consider them a DIY project because I did them myself (with the help of Dennis Murphy).


My agreement with Dennis, however, will not allow me to release the crossover schematics.


Since I finished them, MANY people have inquired as to the availability of finished speakers and/or kits. The site currently addresses finished speakers. As for kits, I am investigating putting together a kit with pre-assembled crossovers (the best I can do under the circumstances). But in order for it to make sense for potential purchasers, I must purchase OEM quantities of drivers and invest a goodly sum of money.


Putting parts in boxes and shipping them out was never my idea of having fun - I like to build speakers. The idea does not excite me (especially in light of some of the comments above). And I have no way of knowing how many people would be interested in building a kit. So, as you can imagine, it is not an easy decision. That said, I am leaning in that direction. This is too good a design not to share.


As for comments about pricing, if you check the cost of the drivers (the G2's are $229.00 each) and crossover parts, you will see that the parts costs are around $1000. I put a great deal of time and energy into my cabinets and use exotic (and expensive) woods and veneers. Enough said. If this were a money-making proposition, I would charge 2 - 3 times as much.


Finally, I have built many DIY speakers but these are far and away the finest. I am really excited about how they turned out and want to share that excitement with others. But perhaps in sharing it here, I chose the wrong venue.


If I proceed to go out on a limb and produce a kit, I will inform those who have been asking by posting information on various forums...but perhaps not this one.


- Jim


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## jsalk

PS:



> *Quote:*
> *
> 
> 
> "Seeing as how none of his others that he has made are in kit form, I doubt that he really has any plans to offer the HT1 in kit form either. "*


*
*


ALL of the others are available in kit form (or via published plans). Check GR Research, Ellis Audio, Selah Audio, MurphyBlaster, North Creek Music and others.


- Jim


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## J. L.

Teran,


I'm not afraid to ask questions... Now that Jim has made his position a bit more clear, I will certainly take advantage of his experience.


Jim,


Sorry to hear you were affected by the recent power outage. It sure gets in the way of making sawdust. I suffered through two long power outages during this past winter ( 7 days, and 4 days) I had to resort to hand-sanding the cabinets.


As one of the contributors to this thread, I wanted to thank you for the explanation. I'll admit, I too thought your posts were leaning toward being commercials. I can now see that the reason your web-site looks so polished (and so commercial) is that you have plenty of experience at running the audioDIYcentral web-site. I certainly accept your apology.


Your agreement with Dennis Murphy precludes sharing the crossover design with the rest of us. I can understand that. Perhaps you can describe it in general terms. (Crossover frequency?) Does your agreement with Dennis allow him to supply the crossover design to others? or is it exclusive to you?


Clearly you have lots of experience building DIY speakers. I know I do not "know it all" so would you be willing to answer some other questions about your speakers? Are they ported? or sealed? Have you described the internal construction anywhere?


Many of us are building (or have built) DIY speakers for our home theaters. I'm sure you realize, our primary interest is the theater. The sound reproduction being only one facet.


Our needs are slightly different than the audio enthusiast:


How is the off axis response of the ribbon tweeters? Although one person in my theater can sit in the sweet spot, unless I watch movies alone (not anywhere as much fun), the others cannot be in the perfect listening position. HT speakers must (or should) have a decent off axis response.


The low height of your enclosure might make it attractive as a center channel. Would you use the same design if building a 5.1 system? How efficient is it?


Are your enclosures constructed of MDF? What thickness? How did you do the bracing? Even if we do not exactly duplicate your design, we can learn from your experience. What technique do you use to apply the veneer? What kind of finish?


It is certainly your right to announce kits for your designs wherever you want. If a kit was available, and if you thought it would work in the home theater setting, the use of this venue for an announcement would be appropriate.


From what I have seen over the past year, many folks following this thread could easily afford your kits, and, if they felt the design would work in a home-theater setting, would certainly consider the purchase of them. Even if you did no kit announcement here, if the design worked in a multi-channel theater setting, someone would mention them in this forum.


In offering a kit, basic (unfinished) cabinets might be very attractive to some builders, to others, a set of plans for the enclosures is all that is needed. Building the enclosure is both a lot of work... and a lot of fun...


I personally did not need exotic veneer, but finished my enclosures in oak with a flat black finish to minimize reflections from my screen. Others have built their speakers into theater columns, the outside of the enclosure having nothing other than black paint applied.... and others, like you, have used exotic veneer. I think that the enclosure is where we would personalize the most, and have the potential for the most savings, in building our DIY home theater speakers.


All this said.... consider sticking around. We are not the worst group of DIY folks on the web, we were simply doing our best to follow the guidelines of the site's owners. I know I asked lots of questions in this post but I know that the answers will be of interest to many here. I do hope you take the time to answer and get this thread back on topic.


Joe L.


PS.

The AudioDIYCentral link Jim provided does not work as it has an extra comma at the end. (Jim, you might want to correct it to make it easier for others)


A correct link is www.AudioDIYcentral.com 


I know I'll spend a lot of time exploring that site. In my opinion, the link is *definitely* an appropriate and welcome addition to this thread.


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## jsalk

Joe -


Thanks for your understanding. I will answer all of your questions in detail. However, since the answer will take up a great deal of space, I will post it on my site. That way others can benefit from it as well. I'll post a URL when it is ready (which will be very soon).


And thanks, I corrected the audioDIYcentral.com URL above.


- Jim


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## jsalk

Joe -


As promised, I have taken a shot at all your questions and have posted a page with my answers at http://www.salksound.com/about-V.html .


I did not link it to the rest of the site yet, because you or others may have additional questions (and I didn't yet check for spelling or puctuation).


- Jim


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## Matt Peacock

Jeff,


Thanks for the kind compliments. I'm pretty sure that the veneer will cover up the few little cosmetic problems, and the internal things doesn't really matter. I'll take some more photos as I progress further.


The next step (once I've brought the right speaker upto the same level as the left one) is to find and take a 1" rounding over bit to the cabinets and then apply the veneer.


Scott,

Don't tempt me, I've been hungering for a new TV for quite a while, and am taunted by adverts for plasma screens everywhere I turn!


Matt


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## Johnla

OK, now I would have to say everything turned out to the positive side on the issue of DIY or not. Great to see it!


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## J. L.

jsalk,


The Q & A page on your site looks very good. I hope I did not have too many punctuation or spelling errors that you needed to correct on my behalf.







The only answer that is not real clear (wording) is if the crossover design is proprietary to you, or to Dennis Murphy. (I'm guessing to him, since that is his business.)


In reading one of the responses to the "Poll" being conducted, I realized three questions I did not ask, but that are important to many are:


Q.

Many of the HT receivers on the market are not designed for loads lower than 6 ohms impedance, what is the nominal input impedance of your HT1 speaker?


Q.

How big are they? (Will they fit in my theater, under my screen?)


Q.

Are there any special considerations I need to make when planning their placement in my theater? (If they are rear ported, then I can guess there would be some minimum suggested distance from walls?)


Joe L.


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## jsalk

Joe -


Your comments were unedited (I did not correct anything or change anything - I will check them if you'd like).


As for your questions, I added them to the page, but to save you a trip, here they are:



> Quote:
> The only answer that is not real clear (wording) is if the crossover design is proprietary to you, or to Dennis Murphy. (I'm guessing to him, since that is his business.)



I guess I would characterize it as proprietary to the design and joinly controlled. Dave Ellis (Ellis 1801 - also one of my favorites) is in the same position. In fact, parts of the crossover are identical. We both agreed with Dennis that the repsective crossovers would remain proprietary and we would not release the schematics. Dave and I have the rights to use the respective designs and sell speakers that incorporate them. But we cannot disceminate the designs.


Dave color-codes the otherwise unidentified parts in his kit and provides a wiring diagram. As of this moment, the best I can do is provide pre-wired crossovers with the parts values removed. If and when I have a kit available, my intention would be to purchase the drivers in quantity so there is no cost difference for the end user.



> Quote:
> Many of the HT receivers on the market are not designed for loads lower than 6 ohms impedance, what is the nominal input impedance of your HT1 speaker?



The nominal impedance is 8 ohms.



> Quote:
> How big are they? (Will they fit in my theater, under my screen?)



They are 19 inches tall, 9 inches wide and 15 inches deep.



> Quote:
> Are there any special considerations I need to make when planning their placement in my theater? (If they are rear ported, then I can guess there would be some minimum suggested distance from walls?)



As designed, the HT1's are rear ported. So they need 2-3 feet of breathing room to operate at their best.


As to their best placement in the room, this is a difficult question to answer without doing some acoustic measurements to determine room modes, etc.


I would start at 2-3 feet from any wall, if possible (if not, acoustic room treatments may be necessary). I would start with them the same distance apart as the distance to the center listening position (equilateral triangle) or just to the left and right of the screen if this is not possible.


I would also toe them in so they are pointing to a position 1 foot in front of the center listening position to allow pinpoint imaging. This is a trade-off between pinpoint imaging and stereo spread.


I would then separately vary the toe-in and the separation until the best performance is obtained.


This process is quite a bit simpler if you are able to measure the response of the system in a given room. Your ears are accurate, but measurements are more so. With proper measurements, you can actually see the results (and also determine what other acoustic treatments the room may require).


In situations where space will not allow rear-ported speakers, the port can be moved to the lower front baffle without other major modifications. I am not a fan of front-ported designs as the front port can muddy the sound somewhat. However, the HT1's are highly detailed, so front ports are less of a problem with them than most other speakers (and many HT speaker use front ports).


If the speaker was produced in a front-ported configuration, distance to the walls would be less if an issue, although it may still benefit from some "breathing room."


A sealed version may also be designed, although I presently have no plans in this regard. This would require a total re-design of the speaker and crossover. If this were to be undertaken, it would be probably be a sealed MTM configuration and require the use of dual integrated subwoofers.


Joe, I hope this answers your questions. If not, fire away!


- Jim


----------



## Matt Peacock

Well...


...embarrased by the "revealing" photos I uploaded for Jeff a few days back I took the flush trimming bit to all the joins of my boxes and trimmed away. Also I used a stanley knife blade at 45 degrees to clean-up the excess glue. I'm very pleased with the result, the edges are as perfect as I can get them, which is a lot better than they were before.


Today I got up really early to head on down to the DIY store. They stock about 50 different router bits. Unfortunately they did not stock a 1" rounding-over bit. In true British style we pretend we have the best of everything but really do it all by halves (maybe I'm just angry).


Not a happy bunny. If anyone knows where I can get one of these in the UK, for a reasonable price, I'd be most grateful.


Matt


----------



## J. L.

Matt,


If you cannot find the 1 inch roundover bit, use a 3/4 inch or even a 1/2 inch roundover bit.


I checked the size I used and found it was actually a 1/2 inch roundover. (It was the largest in a set of roundover bits I purchased from the local Harbor Freight tools store.) I don't know why, but I thought it was 3/4 inch.










I looked at my most recent Woodworker Supply catalog and found that unless you have a 1/2 inch arbor in your router, it might not be possible to get any roundover bit larger than 1/2 inch.


Joe L.


----------



## Teran

I got my new center channel in place this week. It is a 4-way active with a temporary bassbox. Sorry, I don't have a digital camera yet, but I'll post snapshots from the design notebooks.

*Center Channel Speaker*











*Tweeter* - Stryke SA-RTW2 Planar
*Midrange* - Morel MDM-55 2 1/8" Dome
*Midbass* - 2 X Morel MW-164-8 6" Treated Paper Cone


The enclosure is 1.4 cu. ft. sealed with moderate fill. It has two internal braces. All walls are covered with 1 1/2" eggcrate foam. Construction is of 3/4" BB Ply with double thickness front baffle. Drivers are recessed and reliefed. All panels are joined with 45 degree cuts, with biscuits and Titebond II. Inner seams and wiring cups are sealed with silicon.


The two midbass drivers are wired in parallel. All drivers are wired in phase. There are 4 wiring cups on the back, one for each driver.


The bass box is temporarily a Vifa P21 8" in a 1.5 cu. ft. enclosure that I switch from vented to sealed depending on source material. It will be replaced with either a sealed pair of twelves or a single 15" in the spring.


*Electronics*











*Crossover* - Behringer CX-3400 setup for 4-way mono


I also have a couple of older stereo 3-way active crossovers, one of which is 3rd order. It can sound pretty sweet.


The Behringer is 4th order L-W. I have delay control between the woof and midbass and between the midbass and midrange. Allows for a nice focused radiation pattern.


The tweeter and midrange cross at 3.5KHz. Very smooth transition. It is low enough that the midrange isn't straining and high enough that the tweet isn't overdriven into distortion, especially when feeding it full power.


The mid to midbass cross is at 900Hz. I have around 600Hz here where they are seamless.


Highpass on the midbass drivers is at 250Hz.


*DSP/EQ/RTA* - Behringer DSP8024 Ultra Curve w/EMC8000 Measurement Microphone


The 8024 does a very nice job of taming peaks and bringing everything flat. Delay control allows for speaker to speaker phase adjustment. Allows for very tight bass. The trick on these units is to run a hot enough input signal.


Its Auto-Q function can be used with internal test signals to snap-shot the desired EQ for a flat in-room response. Parametric plots are then made to tame the 3 worst peaks per channel. The EQ is then reset to match. Finally, the channel's delay is set to match to the other speakers.


*Amplifiers* - Alesis RA-100 - 2 per channel


They startup and shutdown clean and provide clean power, though they are slightly veiled on the top. I've got a bunch of these that I've picked up off of eBay over the last couple of years. They develop 100W into 4 ohms and supposedly 75W into 8 ohms.


*Listening Impressions*


I have been listening to these drivers in test boxes so there weren't too many surprises. The midrange sounds better now that it is recessed. The tweet, too. The midbass sound wonderful. This is the first time I've had two of the midbass drivers in the same box running in sync. Baritone notes are really there and oh so clear.


Power handling is excellent. It can really slam. Acoustic instruments shine with excellent dynamics.


Fatigue factor is zero.


There are still things to work on, though. For starters, the left and right speakers. I have all the materials, just need to find the time. All of these speakers are going to be built into a screen wall and are sized to fit standard rack-mount spacing. When complete, the screen wall will be one large baffle.



Does anyone know where to get dense 1/2" black felt 18" wide?



Here is a link to my project page . Not much info there, but I'll be moving stuff over from my design notebooks, so check back.


----------



## jsalk

Todd -


Very nice job! How do the Behringer units handle baffle step correction? Or are your baffles wide enough so it is not an issue?


J.L. and Matt -


Yes, you need a 1/2" arbor for a 1" round-over. And there is not need to be angry - most consumer-type supply stores do not carry round-over bits that large.


- Jim


----------



## Teran

The baffles are only 17" wide. The enclosures are against the wall. When I get done, the baffles will be flush with the screen wall.

I will be using felt on the baffles to handle pressure zones and on areas where edge diffraction might occur. Right now, though, they sound pretty good. I'm sure I'll be much more critical over the next month as I get more of a chance to listen to them.


----------



## jsalk

It looks like BSC will not be an issue for you. But not having any experience with the Berhinger units, I was just wondering how they would handle it with a normal enclosure.


- Jim


----------



## Teran

I can set the crossover points so that the natural rolloff of the drivers aid in reaching the desired curve then drive it with more power and EQ it flat. The 3 band parametric EQ along with the 31 band EQ can handle large corrections like baffle step.


Needing to mess with baffle step at all was one reason I went with the layout I did. I'd rather minimize anything that causes a need for electronic correction.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Matt,

I bought a set of 12 bits and I thought my roundover was 1/2" but it was only 3/8". I was able to find a Bosch 1/2" rabbeting bit. James Miyake bought a 1.5" bit for $150. It is posted here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=7


----------



## SVonhof

Wow, don't check on a thread for a few days and man-o-man! jsalk, thank you for your responses, I am glad you didn't bail on the thread. One idea I had for you is that if you don't want to deal with packaging drivers for kits, you could possibly offer just the crossover and cabinet construction info and let the purchaser order the drivers from somebody else? It may make sense so that you don't have to deal with the storage and large quanity purchase if it won't get you anything in return except headaches.

If that sounds like something you would like to do, I could actually work with you and come up with a set of drawings for the cabinet peices (I am a mechical designer and use Pro-Engineer, a 3-D solid modeling design and drafting program).


Matt, I have a 3/8 arbor router and had a 3/4" roundover bit that I used, with no problem. It came in a set of 4 roundovers.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by J. L._
> *Matt,
> 
> 
> If you cannot find the 1 inch roundover bit, use a 3/4 inch or even a 1/2 inch roundover bit.
> 
> 
> I checked the size I used and found it was actually a 1/2 inch roundover. (It was the largest in a set of roundover bits I purchased from the local Harbor Freight tools store.) I don't know why, but I thought it was 3/4 inch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I looked at my most recent Woodworker Supply catalog and found that unless you have a 1/2 inch arbor in your router, it might not be possible to get any roundover bit larger than 1/2 inch.
> 
> 
> Joe L.*



I also think it also might be very dangerous to use a 1" roundover bit in a router, without using it in a router table. As that would be a rather large bit for use in the hand only mode with a router.


----------



## SVonhof

Well, remember when jmiyake posted this pic:










None of us thought he was sane to use that 1 1/2" roundover by hand. I don't think even he would look back and say that was a totally safe thing to do. I would reccomend using a router table when you can.


----------



## Johnla

Teran.


How do you like the Stryke SA-RTW2 Planar?



I have been using both his SA071 7" mid/woofs and SA-TW1 soft dome tweeters, and so far they seem very good for what they cost.


----------



## jsalk

Back on the router bit topic, not only would a router table be advisable for round-over bits in excess of 3/4", but a variable speed router would be a good idea as well. The greater the diameter, the faster the outer edges are moving.


jmiyake got away with using his monster bit without a table (perhaps he made several passes, but his comments about the amount of dust flying made me doubt it) but personally, I would never try it...too dangerous.


- Jim


----------



## SnowDog12

Sorry, back to the Audax kit with another question on the center channel cabinet construction -


Should I roundover the side edges as well as the top and bottom on the front baffle?


And on the discussion of front baffle thickness - I know JL recommends (or at least is using) 1.5" thickness by gluing two 3/4" pieces together. I'm looking at my 3/4" sheathed MDF and thinking to myself "that's some pretty stiff stuff". Especially with the internal bracing that's going to go in. So, am I going to be disappointed if I just stick with 3/4" thickness? I mean, honestly, that really, really is some stiff material, and if the increased thickness is supposed to reduce vibrations I can't imagine that it would make all that much difference would it? And thanks *JL* for the link to the dampening products. Did you realize that one of them was 1.5" thick on its own?!?


----------



## Matt Peacock

Todd,

Nice setup, it'd be good to get some pictures too. I don't know od a similar store in the US, but in the Uk there is a store called "Hobby Craft", and they stock felts like DIY stores stock wallpaper. You might want to check model stores, even if they don't have it, they could well know somewhere who does.


J.L, Jeff, Scott, Jim,


Thanks for all the info (including the links). They're currently rounded over with a 1/4" bit (for practice), I'm pretty sure I saw a 3/4" today (possibly in a kit like Scotts'), but will go back as soon as I can and buy the closest one. It's crazy trying to find the time to do these, I'm getting around 30 minutes a day max at the moment.


My router is variable speed, off the top of my head I believe it's 8000-22,000 rpm.


Are there any issues with bending veneer (this isn't paper backed) around such a tight corner? I can't help but think it's going to crack.


John,


I remember James using a 1.5" rounding over bit in a hand-held router, but I also remember the warnings he was given and he passed onto me, so thanks for the heads up.


SnowDog/John2,


If you roundover both the top, bottom and sides, it will be very difficult to veneer (at the corners). I have heard of people, I believe in this thread, rebating the edge and gluing a strip of hardwood in it's place, and then rounding over that. Therefore you can have a completely rounded over cabinet. Of course, if you don't intend to veneer it...


Matt


----------



## jsalk

Scott -


Drawings are not my specialty. I may have to take you up on your offer. There are a few other issues I need to resolve first, however. Arum Cantus just issued the G2si, a lower cost, lower sensitivity version of the G2. I need to evaluate it (although I don't think I'd switch to a lower performance version).


- Jim


----------



## jsalk

SnowDog -


Stiffness is not the only issue here. The additional thickness on the front baffle has a damping effect. The lower the frequency, the more mass is required to damp resonances.


On small cabinets (cabinets for 5" 2-way's for example), a single 3/4" front baffle may suffice. But on those speakers, I would use 1.5" front baffles. You might go with 3/4" and prove me wrong, but the way I look at it, MDF is cheap and, if it didn't work, fixing the problem later would be a real pain.


- Jim


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *Back on the router bit topic, not only would a router table be advisable for round-over bits in excess of 3/4", but a variable speed router would be a good idea as well. The greater the diameter, the faster the outer edges are moving.
> 
> 
> jmiyake got away with using his monster bit without a table (perhaps he made several passes, but his comments about the amount of dust flying made me doubt it) but personally, I would never try it...too dangerous.
> 
> 
> - Jim*



Router bits of that size are even scary to use in a router table let alone in a hand held router.

And your are absolutely 100% right about about the speed issues when you use the larger bits.

I would not even want to think about using that 1 1/2" bit spinning at 22,000 rpm!


Variable speed routers are a MUST, as far as I'm concerned.

I myself have a Bosch 1613AEVS and 1450AEVS, both are plunge routers, and I like em both. Even though they were a bit more money than some other brands.

And I also have a older Craftsman variable speed router non-plunge, that is only used in my router table. It works great for that, I just did not see a need for a real fancy or feature laden router for use in a router table setup.


At one time, about 6 or 7 years ago. I almost bought a dedicated shaper. But I liked the selection of router bits over what you could get in shaper bits. And went with the router table instead.

But if I was in the position of where I was making stuff as a business, I think I would get a shaper.

Just for the fact they are more "heavy duty" and made specifically for that task.


----------



## J. L.

Snowdog12,


If you want all four edges rounded, I would do as others have suggested, glue solid blocks of hardwood on each of the four edges of your front baffle, then when rounding over, they would show, not raw MDF.


Neither Jeff or Myself rounded all four edges.


The front panel thickness was originally specified as one inch on the Audax plans. I went with 1 1/2 since it was easy to glue two 3/4 inch pieces of MDF together. If I had easy access to 1 inch MDF, I probably would have used it. You will have to make the call.


In the grand scheme of things, it probably will not be *that* audible, especially if you use the dampening materials I linked to. (I did not, but others swear by their use, and they are easy to add, even after construction is complete. And no, I did not notice that one of the materials was over an inch thick on its own McMaster Carr has some reasonably priced alternatives to the Black-Hole marketed to the audiophile types.)


But, I agree with jsalk, at this point in time, to glue on a second layer of MDF and then trim it even with a flush trimming bit is easy. You know you want the speakers to sound as good as possible. Of course, if you already rounded over the edges, then you might want to go with one of the internal dampening sheets.


Matt,


If you can't bend your veneer over a 1/2 inch radius before gluing it to your cabinet, (with the grain, of course) then there is no way it will bend while gluing.


Our veneer was very thin and very flexible, and paper backed. If yours is not as flexible, then a larger radius is in order.


Of course, attempting to bend the veneer across the grain, as you would have to do if you rounded all four edges of the front baffle, is much more difficult... I would guess near impossible on even a 1 inch radius.


Oh yes... welcome to the world of time management... It took me over 9 months to complete my set. Family life comes first, making sawdust is much lower on the list. Watching a few movies in the partially completed theater with the partially completed HT speakers is somewhere in the middle.










Joe L.


----------



## jsalk

Two quick notes:


1) If you apply the hardwood and veneer over it, when you do the round-over it will look more like the entire piece is solid wood. You will avoid having a tell-tale break between the veneer and the solid wood.


2) Unless you really like frustration, I would avoid trying to apply veneer to a baffle that is rounded over on all four edges. This is serious, experienced veneer pro territory. I would not even attempt it.


If you want to round over on all four sides, use a solid wood front baffle (and you may not want to use hard glue to adhere it - the wood will expand and contract with humidity at a much greater rate than the MDF and will be prone to crack).


- Jim


----------



## SnowDog12

Thanks all for your speedy feedback! I should have been more specific on my rounding over question. Its not a matter of asthetics to me, as I'm just using the black analine dye that JL used, and these speakers will most likely be enclosed in a wall enclosure that I'm going to build to surround my screen. Plus my MDF material is preclad in veneer, so when I roundover anything it exposes the MDF on it anyways. In other words, it ain't gonna be pretty unless I used "real" veneer like a lot of you guys, but I don't really plan on it. My question was more of an accoustical one I suppose, as in, is it ok to roundover all four sides. I suppose since no one mentioned that that it probably isn't an issue.


On the front baffle thickness issue - JSalk - I'm not sure that I really understand the term "damping" as you're using it, but since the original plans call for 1" and I'm using 3/4", we're only talking about 1/4" of difference, and I've altered the measurements to make sure the internal cabinet volume is the same (i.e. added 1/4" to it). Is that not the same thing?


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SnowDog12_
> *
> 
> On the front baffle thickness issue - JSalk - I'm not sure that I really understand the term "damping" as you're using it, but since the original plans call for 1" and I'm using 3/4", we're only talking about 1/4" of difference, and I've altered the measurements to make sure the internal cabinet volume is the same (i.e. added 1/4" to it). Is that not the same thing?*



I may be wrong, but I 'think" a few of the main reasons you want a baffle that is thicker then the rest of the enclosure, is because the drivers themselves vibrate, as that is what makes them do what they do.

But you want to try and isolate the good vibrations of the the drivers (the sounds you want to hear) from the bad vibrations of where the drivers may interact with each other or the cabinet itself, due to the baffle vibrating or resonating in the wrong ways (the sounds you don't want to hear). And that a thicker front baffle "driver mount" over the rest of the cabinet, is needed to do that.

Plus I also "think" a front baffle being thicker than the rest of the "box" will help it all from resonating at one set point, somewhat in the same way that a brace helps in that regard. As it breaks it up from just being all the same thickness, that might tend to resonate at one certain frequency.


I may be wrong, but I "think" those are some of the main reasons why you want to go thicker with the front baffle, over what the rest of the cabinet is.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SnowDog12_
> *Thanks all for your speedy feedback! I should have been more specific on my rounding over question. Its not a matter of asthetics to me, as I'm just using the black analine dye that JL used, and these speakers will most likely be enclosed in a wall enclosure that I'm going to build to surround my screen. Plus my MDF material is preclad in veneer, so when I roundover anything it exposes the MDF on it anyways. In other words, it ain't gonna be pretty unless I used "real" veneer like a lot of you guys, but I don't really plan on it. My question was more of an accoustical one I suppose, as in, is it ok to roundover all four sides. I suppose since no one mentioned that that it probably isn't an issue.
> *



For that, I'd look into buying some real wood 1/4 round, that matches the veneer as close as possible to the 3/4" pre-veneered MDF you are going to use. And then use the real wood 1/4 round on the edges, instead of routing them over with a router.

That way you would not have any problems with seeing any of the MDF core of the pre-veneered MDF you are going to use.


----------



## jsalk

SnowDog -


Rounding over corners reduces baffle diffraction. Doing so on four edges may not necessarily be critical, but it is optimum. Go for it!


I guess I would describe "damping" as "soaking up" resonances created by the divers. Ideally you would like to avoid having any driver-induced resonances transfered to the cabinet. If they cause vibrations in the cabinet, the cabinet becomes an active component in the speaker.


Higher frequencies can be damped with insulation, foam, poly or other materials. They basically convert high frequency energy is into heat. But as the frequencies decrease, these materials become less effective. At lower frequencies, it takes mass to do the job. Since two layers of 3/4" MDF provide more mass than a single sheet, they are able to absorb more of this unwanted energy than a single sheet.


Again, MDF is cheap.


----------



## Teran

Showdog12, if you go down from 1" to 3/4" you will want some extra dampening of the front baffle. Those midbass drivers are going to have some extra coloration if you don't.


Options include 1/4" solid wood (not necessarily for your project), 1/4" MDF, or other laminate on the front, or asphalt shingles, BlackHole #5, or other dampeners on the back. Nothing beats mass, though, so 1/4" more to the baffle would be my first choice.


By the way, if you went to a 1 1/2" baffle you could also get some rear loaded horn effects bouncing back through the cone unless the rear of the driver hole was rebated to open up the rear of the driver. Even on 3/4" you will have problems with some drivers, depending on how their basket is designed.


----------



## Matt Peacock

Mass wise, I've heard of lead sheets (consider health risks first) being stapled into the enclosure, and damping wise I've heard of bitumen sheets being used.


Both these have high effects for their relative size, so don't affect the internal dimensions.


Matt


----------



## jsalk

Here is a link to Parts Express page with sound deadening sheets that come in various sizes, are easy to cut and are self-adhesive:

Sound deadening material 


- Jim


----------



## SnowDog12

I'm sort of leaning towards the dampening stuff. I think I (somewhat) better understand damping now So, perhaps last question on this issue - does it have to be absolutely form fitting from edge to edge with cutouts around driver openings, or can it be applied with more loosely fitting pieces?


----------



## SnowDog12

Sorry, add on to previous question - does it have to be applied to all surfaces, just the front baffle, or any internal surface? And can the accoustic foam be glued over the top of it?


----------



## jsalk

As I think is stated in the product description, this material was designed to convert resonant energy into heat.


I usually apply it to all surfaces. It is easy to cut.


So, for the rear of baffles, for example, I apply it to the inside surface and then use a matt knife to remove material from the driver holes (which I previously rounded over).


I also apply it to the entire inside of the cabinet. I apply panels to all surfaces and simply cut the final panels a little larger to overlap the earlier ones. The adhesive bonds well and the material is fairly flexible so you can mold it into corners, etc. I then glue acoustic foam over it.


- Jim


----------



## selmerakt




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Teran_
> *Showdog12, if you go down from 1" to 3/4" you will want some extra dampening of the front baffle. Those midbass drivers are going to have some extra coloration if you don't.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> By the way, if you went to a 1 1/2" baffle you could also get some rear loaded horn effects bouncing back through the cone unless the rear of the driver hole was rebated to open up the rear of the driver. Even on 3/4" you will have problems with some drivers, depending on how their basket is designed.*



I went with a 1 1/2" front baffle on my speaker, so would using my roundover bit on the back of the driver hole help with the effects mentioned above?


Also,

I've been holding off on rounding the edges of my Audax Center until I could find a 3/4" roundover bit... now that I see that some of you guys have used 1/2" and 3/8" roundover bits I think I'll go ahead and use the 3/8" bit that I already have.

Would there be enough of a difference to justify spending ~$45 on a 3/4" bit? or should I save my $$ for the next speakers I make (front left/right)?


Thanks!

-aaron


----------



## jsalk

aaron -


Yes, by all means use a roundover on the inside if the front baffle.


As for the cabinet edges, the greater the roundover, the better the performance (diffraction is minimized). If you are going to be buiding speakers in the future, go ahead and get the 3/4" bit now. A smaller roundover is better than no roundover. But, IMO, it is worth the $ to improve performance. The difference is clearly measureable.


Here is a URL with graphs that show what a 3/4" roundover can do:
http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=cabinets.html 


- Jim


----------



## Swampfox




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *aaron -
> 
> 
> Yes, by all means use a roundover on the inside if the front baffle.
> 
> 
> As for the cabinet edges, the greater the roundover, the better the performance (diffraction is minimized). If you are going to be buiding speakers in the future, go ahead and get the 3/4" bit now. A smaller roundover is better than no roundover. But, IMO, it is worth the $ to improve performance. The difference is clearly measureable.
> 
> 
> Here is a URL with graphs that show what a 3/4" roundover can do:
> http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=cabinets.html
> 
> 
> - Jim*



Why are there large differences below 100?


SM


----------



## jsalk

SM -


Ignore everything under 200Hz. You are seeing the impact of room modes at these frequencies.


I hope this answers your question.


- Jim


----------



## jsalk

Just to shed a little light on baffle diffraction and roundover size, Linkwitz has this to say:



> Quote:
> The benefits of edge rounding come into play only when the radius is greater than 1/8th wavelength. Thus a typical 1/2 inch radius begins to diffuse the diffracted wave at frequencies above 3.4 kHz, but will decrease in relevance at higher frequencies, when the driver illuminates less of the edge due to its increasing directivity. With most speaker cabinets the radius or chamfer is acoustically too small and is primarily cosmetic.



See additional comments here: Linkwitz Lab 


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

You're talking about the outer edges of the cabinet, right? I thought the only thing that rounding those edges did was make the cabinet more attractive and make it easier to wrap it with veneer. I can't imagine that my rounded edges improve the sound of the whole system. If that's the case shoudn't we round all the corners on every object in our rooms (joking). Maybe, you're talking about rounding the edges of the holes in the baffle? Even the Linkwitz article...what little I read before I got bored said there was no scientific study to support this.


I'm obviously no expert in this area, I just enjoyed building the kit. I rounded my edges because others were doing it and it looked good.



OK, I re-read the posts and figured out that you are talking about the inner baffle and not the edges of the cabinet. My attention span is fading with age.

Jeff


----------



## Swampfox




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *SM -
> 
> 
> Ignore everything under 200Hz. You are seeing the impact of room modes at these frequencies.
> 
> 
> I hope this answers your question.
> 
> 
> - Jim*



Ok. But if the room is different how do you know that the differences you attribute to the baffle are not caused by the room?

-sorry for such a beginners question-


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


Rounding the edges of the cabinet looks good, and makes it sound better... A bigger radius is better (as James did on his line array) but even the smaller radius can't hurt.


Can't get much better than that.


Joe L.


Oh yes... You should only wear dark, sound (and light) absorbing clothing when watching a movie... in a room with no sharp objects... you should know that...


----------



## jsalk

Jeff and Swampfox -


A few comments:


1) We are talking about rounding the edges of the cabinets in order to minimize the effects of baffle diffraction at those edges.


2) According to studies by Linkwitz, round-overs need to be at least 1/2" in diameter to have any meaningful effect. Anything smaller is purely cosmetic. 3/4" or greater diameter round-overs will minimize effects to a greater extent.


3) How audible baffle diffraction effects are is subject to some debate (this is what the Linkwitz comment referred to). But they do produce anomolies (abnormal spikes) in the frequency response of the speaker.


4) The difference is clearly measurable (as shown by Murphy and Linkwitz). Thus, it is correct to say that baffle diffraction problems can be minimized as long as the round-over is of sufficient diameter. A 3/8" round-over will have little or no effect, 1/2" some effect and 3/4" or more, a greater effect.


5) There is little effect, if any, below about 1000Hz where the sound becomes omni-directional.


6) Measurements of speaker response under 200Hz (which are not not affected by round-overs) cannot noramlly be made in most listening environments without also recording room modes. They must be taken outside in open space or in an anechoic chamber.


7) Many people think round-overs look nice too.


In short, with a narrow front baffle, cabinet edges that are not rounded over or are rounded over less than 1/2" will produce baffle diffraction artifacts that affect the frequency response of the speaker. This effect can be measured. To minimize the effect to the extent possible, a 3/4" or greater round-over should be used on cabinet edges.


- Jim


----------



## jsalk

One added thought that may help clear things up:


You often see tweeters mounted off-center in the baffle. This, too, is done to minimize baffle diffraction. When a speaker is designed, the designer takes baffle width, driver mounting locations, round-overs and other aspects into consideration to produce the flattest frequency response possible.


This is part of the design process. The crossover is developed once all of these issues are resolved.


If you depart from the design and change any of the above, the crossover will no longer be optimized for the design. The effects may or may not be audible, but they will be measurable and are not desirable.


If you would like to see just how these variables effect frequency response, Paul Verdone has created a simulator which allows you to play with the variables and see the actual effects on the speaker's frequency response in a given design even before it is built.


You can see and download his program here: http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/d...ownloadbds.htm 


- Jim


----------



## Rop

With Jim (and possibly others) around, who has build (and heard) the Criterion The opportunity for a few questions is too good to pass up. I'm looking around for a DYI design that gives me excellent music playback and works for HT use as well. The speakers need to be bookshelf size, and I plan to build a sub-woofer to take care of the low end.


The criterion seems to fit the bill for the left-right channels, and the price is right for my budget. While I'm pretty sure they'll sound great for music I have my doubts about HT use. Jim stated that the ARG2 does well in horizontal off-axis response, however, when I look at the plots provided by GR-Research the off-axis response if pretty poor. Consider the situation of someone sitting on the left side of the room vs. the right-hand speaker, 40-45 degrees is not unusual. According to the plot the high-end drops off like a stone at those angles. Now, I think I understand (somewhat) how a ribbon tweeter works and have a hard time understanding why it drops off like that. It's too high to be mid-woofer vs. tweeter interaction, so that can't be it. I'd have thought that a ribbon tweeter would disperse sound much better, working as a line-source.


If I were to build the Criterion I'd like to combine them with A/V1s for the center channel and the two back channels. Would this work from the perspective of "blending in" of the the center with the left-right? Or are these too different?


Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated!


-Rob-


----------



## jsalk

Rob -


I did notice off-axis response on the Criterion's drops off a little more than I expected. The funny thing is, I use the same tweeter in my Veracity design and they have an extremely wide dispersion pattern and very good off-axis response (the best of any speaker I have ever done). The G2 ribbon was actually designed to provide good off-axis response. So I assume the difference is due to the crossover.


But unless you have a very wide room, it may not be a problem.


That said, unless you went with the Criterion's all around, I would not use them. IMO, they would not match up very well with AV1's.


If you used AV1's for the center and rears, I would use AV1's all around (and have for a number of very happy customers). If I were not to use the AV1's all around, I would use an AV1+ MTM design (it may be called the AV2 now) as a center channel. At least the drivers would match.


Now, if you were concerned about music quality and still require the bookshelf format, you might consider the MBOW1 design by Dennis Murphy ( http://www.murphyblaster.com ). It uses essentially the same cabinet (Dennis's is a half-inch taller and deeper).


This design uses the same mid-woofer (order them from the same source as the AV1's themselves - Danny Richie at GR Research), but uses the exceptional Hiquphon OW1 tweeter, which many consider to be the best dome tweeter in the world. It also utilizes a smooth 2nd-order crossover that is among the best Dennis has ever done (and he is one of the best).


(By the way, Dennis Murphy designed the original SPCA 2-way that served as the basis for GR Research's AV1. So he has more experience with this 2-way design and variants than anyone in the world.)


The result is a more refined version of essentially the same speaker for about $100 more per pair (for the OW1's) - still far less than the Criterion's. The AV1's are good in their own right, but the Hiquphon OW1's put the MBOW1's over the top.


Five of these would make a spectacular home theater system and a great music system as well.


As a matter of fact, I am currently building two pairs of MBOW1's - one for my father and one for a major Detroit sports team. I also have cabinets cut and ready to glue up for four additional pairs. So that should tell you what I think of the MBOW1 design.


I hope this answers your questions. If not, please post again.


- Jim


----------



## Rop

Thank you much Jim!

The MBOW1 was/is on my short list as well. Not many people out there that have had a chance to compare all of these... Good to hear you think highly of them. I noted the 'stuffing' note (or rather, not to stuff the box). Do you use BlackHole on the insides?


Before dropping this: At 10KHz the crossover of the Criterion is well above the crossover frequency. So, the mid/woofer shouldn't be playing a role any more and all that's emitting at that frequency (and above) is the G2. Wave length is around 3 cm., so even the small baffle is large compared to the wavelength. In other words, I would expect the G2 in the Criterion to have the same radiation pattern as a G2 in any other design. Just trying to understand why there's a difference.


-Rob-


----------



## jsalk

Rob -


In terms of BlackHole, it depends on who I'm making the speaker for and whether or not they want to spend the extra money. I have used it on a few pairs in the past, but mostly use convoluted foam together with acoustic dampening material. The result is quite similar to BlackHole.


BlackHole adds about $50 to the cost of a pair of MBOW1's or AV1's. The sound seems somewhat "tighter" with BlackHole when using it with an un-braced cabinet. It is most evident when listening to a solo piano, but is quite subtle.


As for the G2, I haven't done an analysis. Your question made me recall impressions I had when I had just completed building the design. I never saw Danny's measurements and don't know how they were made. In fact, at the time, he hadn't even posted the design on his web site yet.


I was placing a parts order for some AV1's when Danny told me about this new speaker he was working on (Criterion). I told him to send me a kit as soon as he finished the design.


I fell in love with the G2 immediately, but wondered how much better it would be coupled with a 7" Seas Excel W18, rather than the 5" Eton driver in the Criterion.


In the process, I used Paul Verdone's BDS (baffle diffraction simulator) to model numerous baffle designs. I settled on a tapered design that spread the diffraction over a wider range of frequencies. This allowed for better response in a narrow front baffle and allowed me to center the driver.


I am speculating here, but the difference in off-axis response could be related to the baffle design differences. The Criterion centers the driver on a narrow baffle without regard to baffle diffraction effects. But I have never modeled that particular baffle or run measurements on it, so I don't know if that is the answer.


The Criterion series crossover may also play a role. But this is purely speculation. I would have to research it further to see if this could contribute to the difference.


All I know is that I have no off-axis issues with the G2 in my design. To the contrary, off-axis response is about as good as it gets. So, to the extent that there is an issue with Criterion off-axis response (and I don't know if it is really significant), I doubt the G2 is responsible. Beyond that, I can't say for sure, but your question has me intrigued enough to do a little more research...


- Jim


----------



## Johnla

Guys, I found a place for some very affordable 3/4" and larger , carbide round-over router bits.

And all of them are priced at well under the $40 plus, that they are at most places.

A 3/4" is $20, a 7/8" is $26, a 1" is $28, and they even have larger bits up to 1 1/4" as well, and all for under $40.

But if you don't have or use a router table, I don't think that going larger then the 3/4" is prudent thing to do with a hand held router.

The 7/8" is a "iffy" that I myself maybe would try it, to see how it felt. But I would not recommend that others do the same.

And if ends up, that it was something I did not feel comfortable with, then I would just use it in my router table.


They say that the bits have a lifetime warranty, but I don't see how something like a router bit or a drill bit could.

Although hitting something is NOT covered, nor should it be!

So take that for what it's worth....


Anyway the place is www.woodbits.com and the round-over bits are on page 6, 26, and 32 of their on-line catalog.


Page 6 is the ones we want, as all the separate router round-over bits are on that page.

Page 26 is the shaper round-over bits, the ones we don't want.

And page 32 is a 6 piece "set" of round-over bits. Of 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8" and 1/2" for $49, which is a good price, but the sizes are a tad small for what we want them for.


----------



## cmyk/rgb

I just thought I would toss my two sense in. I am about to start construction on a speaker called Proteus on this guys site It is a Clone of the Wilson Audio CUB series 1. I will keep yall posted with construction pics if you are interested. Tony Gee's site has a number of good designs. Maybe for the next pair I will build the Andromeda. I currently have NHT 3.3 mains, A mark Levinson Red Rose Spirit center Triad silver sub and infinity rs 5000 rears. This weekend I should be changing the rears to a pair of Mirage OM-7's all this is running on 2 Citation 7.1 4 channel amps. I hope this speaker can better the already very good NHT 3.3's as the 3.3's will be a tight fit in the new house.


the link http://home.hetnet.nl/~geenius/index.html 



Brandon


[email protected] 

High end Custom installation

Las Vegas NV


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I've read really good things about the Proteus design.

Good Luck!


----------



## selmerakt

I just ordered a 3/4" roundover bit (1/2" shank) from woodbits.com

Including shipping, it was just under $24


now I can finally finish my center cabinet! (I'm almost done with the front L,R cabinets as well... just need to order the drivers, etc for them)


I'll try to get some pictures up in the next few days...


-aaron


----------



## Randybes

Don't wish to start a war, but wanted to get reasoned responses from those of you who have either built your own speakers or purchased them from smaller "shops" or auditioned them comparing them to retail versions. There has been some vigourous discussions with big name "audio" people on some of the usernet groups that most of the DIY speakers are inferior to most of the widely available speakers (sub-woofers and Linwitz designs were exempted). It was pointed out that Celestion even had a challenge at one time and DIY speakers were compared in a blind study against the most inexpensive models and found wanting. Although it was acknowledged that the parts can be of very high quality and the cabinets beautifully designed, the ability of the larger speaker companies to fine tune their designs at significantly less cost meant that DIY speaker builders (and buyers) were doing it for something more than sound.


Thoughts and observations.


----------



## Teran

Uh, no.


Even the Parts Express BR-1 beats most speakers costing twice as much.


Most commercial designs (manufactured) use thin panel constuction with little to no bracing resulting is resonances and coloration of the midrange.


Driver selection in manufactured speakers leave a LOT to be desired.


Crossover design in manufactured speakers are often no more than a cap and resister with no baffle step compensation.


Most "larger speaker companies" are consumer audio manufacturers like Matsushita (Panasonic/Technics), Sony, Bose, etc. Their speakers suck.


----------



## selmerakt

I am currently building the Audax Left, Center, and Right speakers (rears to follow... they will be a second set of front L,R) and I am very curious to see (hear) how they stack up compared to other speakers that are out there...

I have a number of friends, co-workers who are into high-end audio and recording, that are also interested to see how my speaker project turns out.

We're planning a "Speaker shootout" to compare my DIY speakers to various studio monitors and other home theater speakers etc. I'm not expecting mine to be the best of the bunch (Snell XA90's will probably sound better







) but mine are not even finished yet, and they already sound better than my previous speakers... which in the end, is all that really matters to me.

When we get around to doing this shootout, I'll let you know what the responses are... both positive, and negative.


I'm sure there are others who have already had experience comparing their DIY's to commercial speakers, and I too would like to hear what their impressions are/were. (FYI, there are already some posts about these comparisons, but they're buried in the other 29 pages of this thread!







)


-aaron



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Randybes_
> *Don't wish to start a war, but wanted to get reasoned responses from those of you who have either built your own speakers or purchased them from smaller "shops" or auditioned them comparing them to retail versions. There has been some vigourous discussions with big name "audio" people on some of the usernet groups that most of the DIY speakers are inferior to most of the widely available speakers (sub-woofers and Linwitz designs were exempted). It was pointed out that Celestion even had a challenge at one time and DIY speakers were compared in a blind study against the most inexpensive models and found wanting. Although it was acknowledged that the parts can be of very high quality and the cabinets beautifully designed, the ability of the larger speaker companies to fine tune their designs at significantly less cost meant that DIY speaker builders (and buyers) were doing it for something more than sound.
> 
> 
> Thoughts and observations.*


----------



## Randybes

Thanks for your comments Aaron. I am considering buying Jim Salks Veracity just wanted to get general feedback.


----------



## Randybes




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Teran_
> *Uh, no.
> 
> 
> Even the Parts Express BR-1 beats most speakers costing twice as much.
> 
> 
> Most commercial designs (manufactured) use thin panel constuction with little to no bracing resulting is resonances and coloration of the midrange.
> 
> 
> Driver selection in manufactured speakers leave a LOT to be desired.
> 
> 
> Crossover design in manufactured speakers are often no more than a cap and resister with no baffle step compensation.
> 
> 
> Most "larger speaker companies" are consumer audio manufacturers like Matsushita (Panasonic/Technics), Sony, Bose, etc. Their speakers suck.*



Todd,


I was thinking more of comparisions between B&W, Boston Acoustics, Paradyne, rather than the companies that you mention. The most vehement anti-DIY speaker person on the usernet is Dr. Richard D. Pierce who actually, I believe writes for the electronics area of the DIY magazine somewhat associated with Parts Express (Audio Express). There was quite a discussion with several good points made. Celestion is also hardly a Bose or Panasonic speaker maker etc.



Here is a link to his comments:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:...tt.net&rnum=83


----------



## whphel

George Short of North Creek Music has a crossover design made specifically for the B&W 801 which greatly improves the 801's sound quality.


If George can do that and people actually buy them at nearly $1,000.00 a pair (just for crossovers), a complete speaker designed by George must be one great speaker, even if you BUILD IT YOURSELF.


Another thing one must consider is just because my speaker doesn't have a plastic emblem on it with some fancy name does not mean that it wont perform better than your $4,000 dollar name brand speaker.


I'll do a Pepsi challenge with my future North Creek Rhythm Revelators against speakers costing 5,000-7,000 grand any day. But what it all boils down to is your own ears. One guy may prefer a softer high end while the next guy prefers a bright high end. I wonder if when they did this so called comparison if they used like type components. Who did the crossover designs in the DIY speakers they compared (was it a pro or what).


----------



## Randybes

Thanks WHPL for your comments. Don't really know on the comparisions question. What I am looking for is some unbiased comparisions between DIY speakers and comparably priced B&W's, Paradyne, etc. A speaker shootout with the owers of both the DIY and the above plus interested bystanders would be great. To the extent it could be somewhat blind (blindfolded) would be even better. I think it would be hard to build a speaker with sweat, money, and toil and not love it, but I really wanted to hear more opinions by outsiders. As pointed out in Dr. Pierces comments, it doesn't really take much to buy quality parts. Perhaps I should post this in the normal speaker area. I have no opinion and I am sure there must be very good DIY speakers and some not so good. I am just trying to get a flavor if a lot of DIY speakers are good or it is rare indeed as Dr. Pierce would have you believe. I really encourage anyone that is interested to read the whole thread from the link above.


----------



## jsalk

I am obviously biased, but I couldn't pass this up.


The notion that retail speakers are inherently superior to "proven" DIY designs is utter nonsense.


Proven DIY designs use better drivers, superior cabinet construction and far better crossover components.


The only thing left is the crossover. Are retail manufacturers saying they are better able to design a crossover? If so, I sense they are feeling competitive pressure from DIY designs.


Previously, high end speaker design systems were too expensive for anyone but the retail manufacturers. Now, the computer revolution has put those same high-end systems in the hands of DIY designers.


Case: A speaker designer friend of mine worked for a popular speaker manufacturer (name withheld) with a reputation for high sensitivity horn-based designs. Upon measuring some of their products, he noted that the mid-bass drivers were nowhere near as sensitive as the horns. He proposed adding additional mid-bass drivers to address the deficiency and fill the void in the response curve. Marketing nixed the idea as too costly. He then suggested lowering the sensitivity of the horn to better match the mid-bass drivers. Marketing nixed that idea as well because the company built a reputation on high sensitivity. When he continued to argue his case, he was told that they were aware of the problem, but that the company was known for that particular "sound" (with an octave essentially missing) and that is what they wanted. He left the company when he could no longer look himself in the mirror knowing what he did about their products.


When he left that company and founded a DIY-based endeavor, did he forget everything he knew? Unlikely. Did he lose access to the design tools he used while employed? No, he purchased the tools he needed. Are his designs inferior to those he produced while working for that manufacturer? To the contrary, his current designs are far superior since he does not have marketing standing in his way.


The bottom line is this: When someone makes a statement as bold as some of those being made by retail manufacturers, ask yourself what their motivation is.


My take on it is that their statements only reinforce what a steadily growing number of consumers are coming to discover. DIY or DFY (done-for-you) designs have become a serious threat to retail manufacturers and their over-priced, under-performing products. You no longer have to pay ridiculous prices to get superior performance. And that has retail speaker manufacturers running scared!


Randybes, I'd be happy to put my latest design up against any of the brands you mention. Anytime. Anyplace.


- Jim


----------



## Randybes

Interesting post Jim, I can only guess who the "high sensitivity horn speaker manufacturer is"


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I built the Audax R/C/L and a sonosub. As you said, subwoofers were exempted. That's for good reason. You can build a subwoofer that literally beats the crap out of the others.


As for my Audax system, I'm still very pleased with them. I had the Energy Take 5 system which I won't deny was/is a killer speaker system for $700. I still use three of them as surrounds and a rear. The Audax speakers IMO are better and put out more sound in my room.


I built the cabinets and I know they are from 3/4"-1.5" thick and well insulated. Because of this, they are also heavier than any other speakers I own. The Center weighs more than all the Energy speakers. My three speakers (L/C/R) without stands weigh 120lbs. Can you imagine what it would cost a manufacturer to ship a set of speakers that weigh that much. There are some out there that are that heavy but the price is many times more.


I also think (I could be VERY wrong) that some or even all the highly acclaimed speakers that are sold via the internet directly to the consumer were probably once diy designs.


----------



## SVonhof

selmerakt, let us know what happens with your speaker shoot-out. I have always been curious how my DIY speakers would handle themselves against some B&W 601's, but have never felt the desire and need to lug those suckers over to the local high-end A/V store to try it.


Set up all the speakers with a selector box with no labels, put everything behind some acoustically transparent fabric stretched over some cheap frames and go for it.


----------



## Johnla

I think it all depends on what commercial speaker is compared to what DIY speaker.

As either way you could tilt the advantage to favor one or the other.

Because you could compare a very good speaker, to a mediocre or bad speaker for either side.

But if you tried to keep it as fair as possible, a DIY speaker should almost always have the advantage, if it's done right and with some care.


But you also have to keep in mind what the commercially made speaker may cost you, to equal or beat out a good DIY speaker. If it cost you $3000 to buy a "Brand" speaker, to equal or try and better a DIY that cost $800 to say maybe $1600 to build, then is the $3000 speaker really better? No, not when it can cost two to three times as much to equal and "maybe" even better the DIY speaker. Yeah it may be equal to or even better, but it also has a higher cost to achieve that.

You can probably clone just about any good speaker design that was ever made, and maybe even improve on them as well, with perhaps a better crossover design or better drivers, and more than likely save money in the process. The only exceptions to that, that I can see. Would be in trying to clone or design something like a Martin Logan electrostatic, then it starts getting a bit harder to do. But even then, there are a few people doing electrostatic designs as well.


----------



## Steve Dodds

I know you specifically excluded Linkwitz designs, which my speakers are. But if it helps I used to have Wilson WATT/Puppies before the Linkwitz DIYs and compared them side by side in my room.


Somewhat to my surprise, I preferred the DIY speakers, sold the Wilsons and haven't looked back since.


Given the cost pressures of commercial manufacturers I would be surprised if a well-designed speaker like Jim's wasn't competitive with something at twice its price.


Cheers


Steve


----------



## SnowDog12

Sorry, back to an Audax question for you guys that have already finished the kit. I'm looking at soldering the wires to the xovers for the L/F channels. There are two xovers per box. One is fairly straightforward and is for the tweeter. The other, I'm assuming, is for the two bass drivers. However, it doesn't seem to have any elevated "tabs" to loop the wires on, nor does it appear to be documented as to which solder points I'm supposed to attach to. Two questions -


1) in the absence of tabs (or "posts"), am I supposed to solder directly into points on the PCB itself?


2) I can't find any documentation anywhere that says where on the PCB I'm supposed to solder to. Anyone have anything?


----------



## SnowDog12

I think I found the answer to my question after digging further in the provided docs - on the back page of one of the xover diagrams is a physical pcb layout indicating attachment points. I couldn't figure it out at first because other provided diagrams simply don't match up to physical layout.


So, I have another question that I think might have been addressed previously in part - when running the multiple leads to the speaker inputs, is there any reason electrically that I can't just pigtail them all together and run a single lead off of that to the terminal cup (keeping pos and neg separate, of course)?


----------



## J. L.

Either way of tying the three sets of wires together would work just fine. I ran one wire from each crossover to the terminal cup and twisted the three wires for each lug together, pre-soldered them, then crimped them around the terminal cup lug and re-heated the connection to make the solder flow on them for the final connection.


You solder directly to the pads on the PC board when there are no "lugs." madisound uses "universal" printed circuit boards when building the crossovers and many of the copper pads are unused (or used as intermediate tie points)


And yes, madisound put the pictorial connection drawings for the crossovers on the backs of some of the other sheets in the plans. I also had to look for them, as it was not apparent at first to me either. (you are in good company)


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys, I have a question about Zalytron. Previously, I had decided on the Thor T-Line speaker system for my next project to go with my 2-channel system upstairs. After thinking on it for a few weeks, I've decided that I'm not going to spend $1,000 for the drivers and XO parts plus the MDF and veneer cost. I'm leaning toward speakers that are $600 and less. My wife would prefer something that isn't an "eyesore". I notice that Madisound is a little short on systems in this range but Zalytron has lots. My question: what does Zalytron include? Their site isn't very specific. I know they don't build the XO, but do they include the parts?

Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## jsalk

Steve -


As to your comment:



> Quote:
> Given the cost pressures of commercial manufacturers I would be surprised if a well-designed speaker like Jim's wasn't *competitive with something at twice its price*.



I just returned from the DIY2003 event in Indianapolis (sponsored by Phil Bamberg of BESL).


At one point, someone asked what a speaker like the Veracity would sell for at retail. The general consensus was that, if there were one, it would cost about $7000 - $8000 per pair (quite a bit more than twice the price). I don't know how the group arrived at that estimate, but I found it quite interesting.


Many of the people there have been HEAVILY into high-quality audio for 20 years or more. Over the years, they've had an opportunity to audition just about every major speaker brand out there. Yet they all felt that DIY offered the key to superior performance at a reasonable price. That should tell you something.


- Jim


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


In that price and size range, I would check out the Ellis 1801's. For even less, check out Dennis Murphy's Usher design.


I have built both of these designs and they are both solid performers.


The 1801's are a little more refined and detailed. They use the same Seas Excel drivers as the Thor but, IMO, a better tweeter (the OW1).


The Usher design has a little more extended bass. While I don't necessarily agree, many people consider these to be clones of the SS8545 and the SS9500. Clone or not, they perform about as good as the originals.


Both of these designs will tend to have a little more polished crossover design (the heart and soul of any design) than a comparable kit from a parts vendor.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jim,

The Utopia OW1 is one of my finalists. Is is a Murphy design and uses Focal and Hiquphon parts. I'll check out the others.

Thanks

Jeff


----------



## jsalk

(deleted - accidental double post)


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


The Utopia OW1 is somewhat more sensitive, but unless you are using a SET or other low power class a amp, it is not a factor. The 1801 with the Seas Excel W18 is more detailed.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jim,

These will be used upstairs. I'll be using a Denon DRA 1025RA which is 130wpc @ 8ohms ad 150 @ 6ohms. It is a Class A system and is 12-yrs old. At the time was better than some of the amp/pre combos like the Carver, Adcom and something else that I compared it to.


I assume that when you say low power, you mean less than my system. Maybe, I'll check out the 1801, the Usher and the MBOW1. I notice he is now using a GR-Rsch woofer and Hiquphon tweeter for the MBOW1. I know the guy who builds the cabinets for GR-Rsch. His company, Rutledge Audio Design, is east of Atlanta. I've heard several different GR-Rsch speakers like the AV1, AV3 and something else. They were all very nice. I'm replacing 22-yr old Bose 601s. I really enjoyed building the HT speakers last winter and I'd like a new project. I'm sure about anything will sound better than the 601s but a good recommendation is always welcome.

Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


You will have no problem powering any of the speakers you listed with that amp. I was talking primarily about SET (single-ended triode) tube amps which are typically 5 - 8 watts. Many audio purists would never consider anything else. But you need an extremely efficient speaker with this type of amp.


I have also built many AV1's and MBOW1's for clients (in fact, just the other day I finished an MBOW1 prototype for the Detroit Redwings and have another pair in the works). The actual MBOW1 cabinet is slightly larger than the AV1 cabinet (although the standard AV1 cabinet will work). And the driver cutouts must be set up a little different since the OW1 is slightly smaller than the TB1 in the AV1.


While the AV1 parts are less expensive, the MBOW1's are more refined. The OW1 is a far superior tweeter and the MBOW1 crossovers are 2nd order and about as good as a crossover gets. This is one of the best "bookshelf" designs available today.


I would rate them in quality as follows (from good to best):


AV1

Usher

MBOW1

Utopia OW1

1801


Of course, if you want extended bass, move the Usher design up the list. The tweeter is not as detailed, but the bottom end is much more extended than the AV1 or MBOW1 with their 5" mid-woofer.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jim,

Thanks for your expertise. After I build the speakers this winter, maybe a tube amp would be fun. I know there are lots of kits on the market for these. I had a Luxman back in the early 1980s when I was still in college. I wish I still had that thing. I can't remember too much about it or what the heck happened to it. I think I traded it for something (I was probably grifted). As you said, I'd have to have high efficiency speakers if I go to to tubes.

jeff


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


Are you goging to the DIY event in Atlanta on October 25th? It would be a long drive for me, but I'm thinking about it.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jim,

I've thought about it but I'm not sure if I'll be able to make it. I know Brian Bunge from Rutledge Audio Design (RAD) will be there. He builds cabinets for GR-Research and also has a shop where he assembles speakers. I got to see and hear some line arrays and killer subwoofers that he built for customers. Maybe I could build the Murphy Utopia OWI speakers by then and take them along.

jeff


----------



## hometheaterguy

Ted try Steves site (he is a AVS member):

http://www.doddsy.net/steve6_009.htm 


Great stuff from Steve


----------



## safaa

hello

here is pic of my seas DYI speakers it looks big for drivers but inside the big box is the right box size 1 cu ft.


----------



## safaa

hello

i have a question

does it make any different if i connect xover values either way.

thanks


----------



## cmyk/rgb

From what I could gather from your picture they look exactly the same electricaly. If it is just a matter of how you hook them up physicaly then either way works it looks to me like your just wanting to make it easier to solder is that right>? if it is then the second pic is fine.


----------



## hometheaterguy

The important thing with assembling a textbook passive crossover is using the proper values. If wrong values are used then crossover points are drastically altered which changes the output frequency of each driver. If you went into the Parts Express tech forum ( www.partsexpress.com ) they talk about crossover building nearly daily.


----------



## safaa

HELLO

I WENT WITH , BECAUSE DID NOT GIVE THE RIGHT SOUND. IT WAS LOW , WAS NOT RIGHT. AFTER I SEPARATE THEM. WOW IT S NICE. BIG DIFFERENT,


----------



## jsalk

safaa -


It should not have made a difference. Both I & II are the same. If there was a difference, there is something else at play here.


- Jim


----------



## cmyk/rgb

Update


The proteus are almost finished I am expecting drivers and crossover parts to arrive Friday. I have lots of pics if anybody is interested I can email them

I would post some but I havent had a chance to sit down and resize them to 640x480 to post on here.


Brandon


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## safaa

email me i`ll resize them for you. i have print shop 5. which it will do resize for web,send them to me as zip file.


----------



## safaa

hello


jsalk. it did make different. i actually made xover exactly like print out , its improved .quality of the sound was greater,rich too.


----------



## drvinhle

I appologize for intruding on this thread. I am hoping to contact Safaa. Safaa, I need your help; I sent you a private message through the AVSForum private message system here. I hope you will reply because I am in desperate need on getting the right timings for my Sony xbr700 TV.

you can contact me at [email protected] 

Thank you so much for your help.

Vinh.


----------



## cmyk/rgb

Hey everybody


Very busy lately working on three extremely high end theaters so Proteus speakers are crawling along on the weekend only. I expect to have drivers installed and test fit and finally get to seal up the boxes. Also crossovers assembled and tested and hope to here them by Monday>? maybe>?









Any way thank you to Safaa for resizing the pics for me so I could post them so here goes. I will not post all of them but anyone interested can email me and I will send them all the construction pics as well as links and cad drawings and schematics.


Brandon

[email protected]


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## cmyk/rgb

Number Two first deviation from original design I chose Sheet vinyl instead of carpet tiles for internal wall damping. I could not find self adhesive rubber sheet for roofing at my local home store I can special order it for next time.


----------



## cmyk/rgb

Number Three After holes cut. Dewalt rotary saw with circle jig made this very easy.


----------



## cmyk/rgb

Last for now almost finished all that remains is wedge molded foam for the inside and threaded inserts for each driver both to arrive this weekend. Then I can seal them up and test before installing laminate. I have chosen a Black satin laminate to match my NHT 3.3's. So lets hear what everyone thinks I am very excited to hear how these sound.


Brandon


----------



## cmyk/rgb

oops forgot the attachment


----------



## Johnla

Man that sure must have some weight to it.

I'd say you should not have any problems with the cabinet flexing and causing a resonance, that's for sure.

As it definitely looks to be built on the rather sturdy side.


----------



## cmyk/rgb

Yup they are very stout


----------



## moonhawk

Well, I've been home sick for the last couple of days (bad head cold) and I've read the whole thread...


Wish I'd found it last Spring when I was working on my own speakers, which are still unfinished, just got too busy.


Here's my two cents...


I haven't heard one word about SAFETY on this thread, other than a discussion of large diameter router bits on tables vs hand held and running at lower speeds.


Both good ideas.


MDF is nasty stuff, contains formaldehyde, It's good for preserving dead things, not live ones. Always wear a dust mask.


Also, if you'd like to be able to enjoy your wonderful speakers for more than 5 years, wear hearing protection when running power tools. High end hearing loss is gradual and irreversible.


Goggles are a good idea too...didn't one poster here say he had a router bit break while running...? Do a nasty job on your eyes, or anywhere else.


Of course I have lots of other opinions on woodworking and speakers in general, but I'll leave you all with the ones I've already stated...You're all doing a great job.


I'm subscribing to this thread to follow everyone's progress, and keep it bumped and current.


Hope I get back to work on my own projects soon so I can contribute some news, photos, etc...


Later...


----------



## J. L.

moonhawk,


I retired from AT&T in 1998 with 30 years of their safety inspections, quizzes, and classes behind me. (we were even tested and quizzed quarterly at one point) If I did not mention safety glasses, hearing protection, and dust masks, it was not because I did not use them, but because their use is second nature for me. I've always used them.


If I learned anything from the safety training I was given at AT&T, it was that it is difficult to replace body parts, fingers, eyes, etc. We had to sit through some pretty gruesome training films showing industrial accidents. They did not want us getting hurt and took the time to give us the training we needed to work safely.


I used a dust mask whenever cutting or sanding MDF. I used hearing protection at all times when working with my power tools.
*I use the type that look like earplugs on a plastic band that goes behind your head*










When I started the speaker project, I used safety goggles. They worked OK, but fogged up when I worked outside when it got colder. My wife treated me to a full face safety shield like the one pictured below for Christmas. It is wonderful. I never feel as if sawdust is flying in my face or eyes. That is what I use now when working with my power tools. It has better ventilation so it does not fog up at all.










I'll repeat what moonhawk said: Use safety glasses and hearing protection when working with your power tools. Use a dust mask when working with MDF.


Joe L.

I know you want to be able to watch, listen, and enjoy movies when finished making sawdust. Work safely..


----------



## moonhawk

Hi Joe...


Thanks for the reply...


I figured you guys mostly were keeping it safe, but it seemed like a good thought to add to a very entertaining and educational thread. Also, there may be a few...(including myself) who need to be reminded from time to time.


Plus I wanted to keep this thread bumped up on the radar screen...


----------



## SVonhof

Moonhawk, I don't think this thread needs any more help getting bumped, you have obviously seen how many posts it has and how long it has been around!









Nothing wrong with that though.


----------



## Ten 99

And most of you might know this too, but some exotic woods have the ability to be down right hazardous as well. That is, the dust created from cutting it can cause you to get very sick if you won't use a dust mask, etc.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Geez, you dust police guys are about 10 months too late. I hope that anyone who cuts MDF with a table saw or even worse, a router gets some prophylactic protection. I don't think I mentioned it in my posts, but my site which detailed my speaker building definitely emphasized the use of safety glasses and some sort of dust mask or respirator. I use a different service now and the links in this thread are dead.


I'll be sure to wear hearing protection so I can fry my ears while listening to my AV system at reference level;-)


----------



## moonhawk

Yeah, Jeff, like I said, I just found this thread a couple of days ago...


I kept clicking on links to see pics of your stuff, and they were all dead...


----------



## Johnla

Well....., they were nice pictures......


----------



## J. L.

I've shared in good times, now I figure I'd share my grief.


My sonosub subwoofer failed in a most interesting way. No, the cardboard tube is fine... but the MDF I used for the bottom end-cap shook itself apart in a battle with a Romulan warship.


I had constructed the bottom end-cap out of three 3/4 inch thick pieces of MDF. Two pieces fit inside of the sonotube, the third layer was a bit larger in diameter and butt against the end of the tube.

*Here is a picture I took as I was building it:*









I had routed a groove in the bottom most layer for the end of the sonotube to rest. I put closed-cell foam in that groove to seal the end of the sub. Apparently, the groove cut through the harder outer skin of the MDF and left an opportunity for the inner MDF to fail in an interesting fashion.

*You can see the groove I routed in the outermost layer of the end-cap to hold some closed -cell foam.*










The MDF split (or rather cleaved) in two. The Tempest driver was bolted to the part of the end-cap inside of the sonosub and it separated from the part held fast to the outside of the sonosub with the long threaded rods I used to hold everything together. No... it did not fail on a glue joint I had made, but instead, the sheet of MDF split in the middle. Apparently, when it was manufactured, the company that made it skimped a bit on the glue. The inside was in fact, very soft, like pressed paper, not like wood at all.

*Here are the two pieces of the bottom end-cap after I disassembled the bottom end of the sub:*









*Here you can see how the MDF split down the middle.*










I've cleaned the remaining MDF off the other two layers of the bottom end-cap (using a sharp chisel) and will be making a new third layer. This time, I'll use a piece of baltic-birch plywood for the third layer and use plenty of screws as well as glue to fasten it to the other two inner layers of MDF. With any luck, it will be back in operation this weekend.


The forces needed to pull the MDF apart must have been tremendous. I know it was not that loud... (must have been the Romulan Warship...







) On the other hand... it might have been partly the fault of the MDF manufacturer...


Joe L.

(Grieving over the untimely death of my sub at the hands of the Romulan Empire...)


----------



## moonhawk

My condolences, Joe...though it looks like you have the situation well in habd...


MDF is usually soft in the middle...I don't care for it when not absolutely necessary, not enough strength to weight.


I have heard of HDF, which is dense all the way through, but never seen it...And MDF is already too heay, though necessary in most Speakers because of the density and deadness.


I have seen a lot of plans that use a mix of Baltic Birch, or better, Apple Ply, laminated to mdf. The different inherent resonances are supposed to cancel each other out.


Let us know how your repair works out.


----------



## Johnla

Well, that's gotta ruin your day for sure when something like that happens.


Yeah, I have to agree. MDF while being very dense, is not really that strong at all.

And it don't take all that much, to damage or pull out the "core" of it.

You need to remember that MDF is more of a processed & compressed paper, than it is a wood.

It's almost like a cardboard on steroids in some ways. And that it's just not very strong in many ways.

And when you consider it for anything that resembles a structural part or project, it might be better to look to maybe using a alternative product like plywood. To use in the areas that must have sturdy and reliable strength.


----------



## darthopus

J.L.,


Condolences on your sub. What frightens me is that your pieces look like the way I did mine. I hope this does not turn out to be a common theme.

I'm using the Shiva so maybe I'll continue to be lucky.


later,


Don


----------



## J. L.

Don,


I still think there was a manufacturing defect of the MDF involved as well. I hope you have better quality MDF than the stuff I had.


Rather than use glue alone, I will add 8 screws through the outer most layer of the end-cap and into the inner two layers. The screws should help a lot in keeping the inner layers of MDF attached to the outer layer.


I'll post pictures later. I'm about to go outside and make some sawdust.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Joe,

You've got an excuse to get the router out again. I check mine from time to time after watching something with heavy bass. So far so good. My main concern is the port tube coming loose. It is the green 6" sewer pipe and pretty heavy.

jeff


----------



## SnowDog12

Hey all - some of the links posted earlier in this thread for how to build a sonosub appear to be broken, or just not very complete. Can anyone point me to a definitive site with specific build details, mainly for the kind that is 6' tall by 18" dia using a single 15" driver?


----------



## J. L.

Snowdog12,


Although not a specific site, the following page has about the most comprehensive list of sonosub links I found when doing my initial investigations.

http://members.tripod.com/~terrycthe...um/page12.html 


Have fun... I'm sure some links will be dead, but there are plenty of others to choose from.


If you get really ambitious, you can try a DIY version of the sub at the following link. Although not a sonosub, I'll bet it would be fine for a Home Theater as it seems that it is flat down to 10 Hz. Solves the problem of where to put it in the room and doesn't take much power to drive it to reference levels either:
DIY alternative to a Sonosub 

(I didn't think my wife would understand...so I didn't even propose it as a possibility... but you may have a more understanding spouse... on the other hand... after seeing this, almost anything else might seem very acceptable







)


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

John,

This should help you:

http://members.tripod.com/~terrycthe...um/page12.html 
http://www.quux.net/roo/diy/sonosub/sonocalc.html 
http://www.quux.net/roo/diy/sonosub/design.html 
http://www.diysubwoofers.org/ 
http://dustin.bunnyhug.net/sonostart.php 
http://home.mindspring.com/~jhovis/diy_sonosub001.htm 

jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Anyone ever use the asphalt or vinyl damping material from Parts Express?
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....ectGroup_ID=37 

I'm starting to acquire the materials for my new 2-channels speaks.

jeff


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


I have used a "sound deadening material" (in combination with acoustic foam) from Parts Express in several speakers with good results.


Here is a URL: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd..._ID=7083&DID=7 


It (supposedly) absorbs sound and converts it to heat.


It is dense, cuts easily and has an adhesive that sticks well. You can actually mold it into corners. I glue acoustic foam right over the top of it. The result is somewhat like BalckHole at a lower cost.


- Jim


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


For some reason the full URL will not display. But you can find it under "panel damping" in the Speaker Building section.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jim,

Yeah, I forgot to mention that I'm looking for similar results to Blackhole 5 at a lower price. BTW, I have narrowed my speaker choices to either the Ellis 1801B per your recommendation and the Utopia OW1. I know both XOs are by Dennis Murphy and should be excellent. However, the Focal drivers in the Utopia are less expensive than the Seas. If I expect big bass, I know I'll need a subwoofer. I still have a 10" 100wpc Energy sub that was part of my HT system that I'll try. Since subs are so easy to build what do you think?

jeff


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


I guess it depends on the amount of detail you are looking for. The Seas W18's are about the most detailed mid-woofer there is. That is why I selected a variation of it for my Veracity design. But if you don't listen to music with a lot of detail, perhaps you wouldn't need it.


I'll pass along this story: The first time I talked to Dave Ellis about his 1801's, I told him I wanted to use it in a home theater installation and he started laughing. I asked him what he was laughing about and he said, "that's a bit of over-kill, isn't it?"


In other words, for home theater, rock and pop music, the extra detail may not be needed. On the other hand, I'll take all the detail I can get.


I have never built a Utopia OW1, but knowing Dennis, I'm sure it would be a great speaker. I have built many MBOW1's for home theaters and I have never had a disatisfied client. Both of the designs you have chosen are a step up from there.


I'm also just starting to build a floor-standing 1801F for a client. If I get a chance to install the drivers and test them out (he originally indicated he wated to do the final assembly), I'll let you know how it compares to the 1801B.


How's that for a definitive answer?


Now, if you were asking about subs, I would think you would want to eventually replace the Energy sub and build something that better matches the performance of whatever speaker you choose to build.


- Jim


----------



## SnowDog12

hey joe, what sonosub plans/website did you use as the basis for your sonosub? All the links are great, but I can't seem to find any that show an enclosure as tall as yours! And thanks everyone for the links so far!


----------



## Jeff Hovis

John,

Go back one page and click on the next to last link that I listed. It is the sonosub that I built last December. The one that JL built is the same. If you want tall, this is it. Mine is over 72" tall.

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

SnowDog12,


Basically Jeff is correct.


My sub is a combination of several other designs.


First, I used a Adire Tempest driver. It is different than the driver Jeff used, but similar. (they have different T/S specs)


To assist in the use of their drivers, Adire has available on their site a demo version of LSpcad with their drivers loaded into the driver database. I downloaded and used that program to verify the 260 liter design found in one of the links I posted recently.


Once I decided on the internal volume of the enclosure, I used the sonosub calculator (Jeff posted a link to it about one page back) to calculate the length of my 18 inch inside diameter sonotube needed. This length took into consideration the size and volume of the end-caps, driver, and port tube. All told, I think my sonotube was about 66 3/4 inches long.


I used 4 inch pipes to support the top and bottom plates of my sub. Add 8 inches for the pipes, 1 1/2 inches for the top and bottom plates, about another inch for the length of threaded rods extending through the bottom plate (on which I tightened two nuts and their washers/lockwashers)


All told 66 3/4 + 8 + 1 1/2 + 1 = 77 1/4 inches tall.


Are all designs going to be as tall, no... not if they use different lengths for their feet, a different diameter sonotube, a top plate, etc. Jeff's sub is shorter since he did not use a top plate as I did.


As I said earlier, I used the flexy style of construction. The dimensions were entirely determined by the LSpcad design programs as I determined for my Tempest driver.


Joe L.


----------



## safaa

hello

i got time to do a sub woofer,wife does not know yet









it will be my big surprise for her birthday,

so i need your help what kind good driver should i get i`ll need two 12`` and up, what kind of active amp to use with these drivers,,

i`ll put them in a single cabinet,

this time i`ll have a friend of mine carpenter to do it for me, i would only install the drivers and the amp,

do i need a xover for a sub or the active amp will do ,

thank you

i need to do this fast before OCT 2nd,


----------



## Johnla

safaa


You better do it real fast, as Oct 2nd is in just two more days.


----------



## safaa

well if i know what drivers to get i would make the cabinet stain it cut the holes, gloss it , and have the drivers and amp shipped over night,

so far no one recommended any drivers neither an amp.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

You can't go wrong with two Shivas from Adire Audio. They also have amps but you may want to go with something like the 250w Parts Express plate amp. They are normally approx $120 and often on sale for $99. The plate amps have XOs.

Jeff




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by safaa_
> *hello
> 
> i got time to do a sub woofer,wife does not know yet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it will be my big surprise for her birthday,
> 
> so i need your help what kind good driver should i get i`ll need two 12`` and up, what kind of active amp to use with these drivers,,
> 
> i`ll put them in a single cabinet,
> 
> this time i`ll have a friend of mine carpenter to do it for me, i would only install the drivers and the amp,
> 
> do i need a xover for a sub or the active amp will do ,
> 
> thank you
> 
> i need to do this fast before OCT 2nd,*


----------



## J. L.

safaa,

Adire has several "white papers" with reference designs for their subwoofer drivers.


Unless you want to use the LSPcad program available on their web-site to design your own enclosure, I would strongly suggest you build one of their proven reference designs if you decide to use one of the Adire drivers.


The bass response of a subwoofer is VERY LARGELY affected by the size of the enclosure and how (or if) it is ported / tuned.


To throw a great driver in a haphazardly sized box will likely produce bass, but be anything but flat in its response. In a word, it won't sound very good and your efforts will be a waste of your time.


It has been said many times that most "car" subwoofers will do very poorly in a home theater when they cannot take advantage of the "cabin gain" that occurs in a car. Stay away from them unless you know what you are doing.


One more thing... the subwoofer enclosure construction is very likely to take you the next two days even if you have all the materials handy. You need to start making sawdust now if you want to get things done by the 2nd.


So... 1. choose a driver

..... 1a. order driver

..... 1b. order sub-amplifier

..... 2. design a enclosure (or use a reference design)

..... 2a. purchase materials for enclosure

..... 3. make sawdust

..... 3a. assemble enclosure

..... 3b. finish enclosure

..... 3c. wait for UPS truck

..... 4. mount driver and amplifier

..... 5. wrap with red ribbon and present as gift


Yup... at least two days effort...


----------



## Johnla

One more day left, so you only hope to make it "done" by the 2nd, is to get one that is "pre-made" as much as possible, and to have it shipped overnight. Like maybe one of the stryke models.

http://www.stryke.com/subwoofers.html


----------



## J. L.

If you were going to order the amplifier from PArtsExpress, then you could order a subwoofer kit that includes the amplifier from them and do the final assembly. It might be possible to overnight ship the kit (expensive... but possible)

here:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...ID=15171&DID=7 

or here:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...ID=14736&DID=7 

or here:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...ID=14733&DID=7 


Good luck... one day remaining...

Joe L.

PS. You might want to get out and get the birthday card now while you are waiting. A backup gift couldn't hurt in case you have a snag in shipping or delivery of your kit. You can always use it for another occasion if the sub kit arrives on time.


----------



## safaa

hello

thanks. for all this info. a card is good idea too.












http://www.speedsound.com/index.html 

here where i`m going to buy adire drivers its about 30 min form me, lucky me. on way back i would get roses.

so i will get drvs+amp.

then i got to look for my friend to do the box. or i`ll do it he has a lots of tools.

so i`m done. i have only to think which design .


----------



## safaa

that store they don`r carry in stock they going to order it for me.

i guess you cann`t hurry a sub,sub don`t come easy.


----------



## safaa

hello

this what i`m getting for the sub



http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=300-793 


http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~aco...s/adire_shiva/ 


http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/shiva_apps.htm


----------



## Johnla

Well if you ordered overnight delivery, it looks like you may have a slightly late weekend Birthday present to give away then...


----------



## SamL

Hi Jeff,


I have build the UtopiaOW1 designed by Dennis Murphy - most probable the only pair around. The good thing about this speaker are good dynamic, neutral to warm sound and good clarity. It have good 15 degree off axis response and can sound good even at low volume level. I am using it with Plinius SA100 power amp with entry level DVD/CD player. It sound even better on a friend's system with better amp & highend SACD player.

I am using the same system for music & movie. Depend on the type of music you listen to, you might want a quality speaker to go with your HT system - specially if you are into music DVD. There's nothing more frustrating than watching your favorite unplugged music DVD, seeing all the musicians and instruments and not able to hear them - and that's one of the reason I build the UtopiaOW1.

Well, since I am in NZ, I don't have a chance to compare my speaker to 1801 or MBOW1. As far as I am aware, both 1801 and MB0W1 are now on version 2 or higher. Where as UtopiaOW1 is still on version 1.

Knowing Dennis and Dave, I am sure 1801 will be better sounding, however it will also demand good quality source to drive it. I think MBOW1 will be more forgiving.

The UtopiaOW1 is with me for a year now and I am thinking of replacing it with a 3 way system with higher sensitivity (90db and above) with wider off axis response. Unlike to start this until I finish building my DIY AKSA power amp. Too many thing to build, too little time










Photo of my UtopiaOW1
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/m...view_album.php 


Sam


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hello Sam,

Thanks for the feedback on the Utopia OW1. So far, you are the only one I have found who has these speakers. I've found lots of info on the Ellis 1801B. I would be using these for music only. Probably Classical, Jazz and Instrumental music. I have a 130wpc Class A Denon DRA1025. For HT, I built the Audax speakers that are presented earlier in this thread. I'm not going to make my final decision until December, so I may still change my mind and look at others.


----------



## SamL

Hi Jeff,


If possible, have a listen to the speaker you intent to build before you make your decision.

Not sure if anyone mention it. Dillon Acoustics recently just make public some of his speaker plan, even if you are not building now, it is worth downloading them.
http://www.dillonacoustics.com/ 

His design are will know to have wide open sound.


Have fun,

Sam


----------



## SamL

Hi Jeff,


If possible, have a listen to the speaker you intent to build before you make your decision.

Not sure if anyone mention it. Dillon Acoustics recently just make public some of his speaker plan, even if you are not building now, it is worth downloading them.
http://www.dillonacoustics.com/ 

His design are will know to have wide open sound.


Have fun,

Sam


----------



## SnowDog12

This may be a question better posed to another forum, but there seems to be a good amount of expertise/experience going on in this one so I'll try here first in case anyone has any time.


I'm still struggling with whether or not to do a sonosub or traditional, and am convinced there are some things I just don't understand, so here are my questions:


1) why do ported over sealed? I can't find anything that gives any definitive answer.


2) on the Adire site, it seems to indicate that a higher Q rating (.9xx) is better for home theater, as it gives more thump and movement up into the midrange level, but it seems like most people go for the lowest possible (.5xx). So, which is better?


3) Since some folks in here have built the Audax kit (me included, and love it so far!), would there be a difference in voice matching between a conventional box design vs. a tube design? Joe seems to love his to death, so are others having similar reactions?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I'm sorta like you...I don't know what is best. However, my sonosub is almost a year old and it still packs some serious whomp! In certain passages, you can feel the pressure from that thing. I have it turned down a little now. If I ever replace the driver, I'll probaby buy another Dayton DVC or maybe the Adire.

Jeff


----------



## SamL

I learn a lot from using the Excel program - UniBox from http://www.danbbs.dk/~ko/ubmodel.htm 

I did a bit of experiment with my speaker by covering the port etc and corresponde that with the results from UniBox and after a few test, the number make more sense.


Hope this help,

Sam


----------



## J. L.

SnowDog12,


Actually, it is not that I love my sub to death... the Romulans beat my sub to death...


From what I have learned (and I probably will get this only partly right)... the "Q" of a sub indicates how much energy it will store and release over time. A higher "Q" and the bass will "ring" more near its tuning frequency (or be Boomy more likely)


A lower "Q" and the bass will be more accurate. However, I think this will sound to some to be "dry." Since in the Home theater we are expecting "Boomy" sound,(explosions go boom) it is more acceptable to have a high "Q" than if listening to music where accurate bass (a lower "Q") is desired.


Now... the Tempest Driver I used, and the Dayton DVC driver Jeff used are both pretty efficient and our large enclosures make it pretty easy to get plenty of volume..., even at a lower "Q" of .65 or so (where I think my sub has its "Q")


Oh yes... I think I read somewhere that ported enclosures are more efficient than sealed enclosures.


The Box vs Tube has nothing to do with "voicing" it has only to do with two things... Internal volume (cubic liters)

and enclosure wall stiffness. If the enclosure walls are vibrating, then they are adding their sound to that made by the driver. It is unlikely that addition is going to add to the quality of the sound. The tube is inherently stiff. It cannot flex under pressure without stretching (and it does not stretch) It is interesting that the end-caps of my sub (three layers of 3/4 inch MDF vibrate MORE than the thin cardboard walls of the sonosub.


A loudspeaker does not care about the "shape" of the volume of air in the enclosure. The volume of air can be round, square, cylindrical, etc. The Sonosub is simply a easy way to get a large volume in an enclosure that does not vibrate on its own. It happens to be a cylinder.


Joe L.


----------



## jsalk

For those interested, Dennis Murphy and I will be hosting a demo suite at the Dayton DIY event October 18th.


We will have the Veracity design on hand, as well as the Veracity Bob (name to be determined). This will be the first public listening session for the Veracity Bob prototype. It is a ML TQWL (Mass Loaded Tapered Quarter Wavelength Tube) design featuring the G2/W18 combination.


See you there.


- Jim


----------



## SVonhof

Snowdog, as you start to look at the Q variations for a particular driver, you also need to look at the frequency response. If you take a driver and change the Q from .5 to .707 to 1 or more, you will see the response change drastically. The curve for a sealed box, with a Q of .707 will not have a noticable hump or rise, change the Q to 1 and you will see a definite rise just before the drop in frequency occurs. A Q of .5 has an even softer rolloff than the .707 Q box, but won't have the same F3 position. If this doesn't make sense to you, see if you can get ahold of a copy of Vance Dickason's book "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook". He describes all points of speaker design that you will want to know, and more.


As for sealed vs. ported:

Sealed designs will give you a smoother rolloff of frequency, but will require more wattage to drive the sub. The boxes are easier to make as there is no tuning of ports or dealing with tweaking of box sizes, since they are more forgiving. For the person with no knowledge of subs and boxes, it is the most fail safe sub you can build as long as you have the correct specs for the driver. Sealed boxes will give you more bass on the low end, since the rolloff is not as steep (12dB/octave)

Ported will give you more SPL's and have more of a punch to them. The frequency rolloff is about 24dB/octave. With ported designs there are other things to worry about besides getting the volume dead on and the port length proper since you also will have to consider port noise also called "Chuffing" by some.


I hope that is not too much, as there is lots more where that came from. Get a copy of Vance's book as you can always refer back to it if you don't quite remember something.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jim,

I'd be interested in building those if you can offer them in a kit.

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *For those interested, Dennis Murphy and I will be hosting a demo suite at the Dayton DIY event October 18th.
> 
> 
> We will have the Veracity design on hand, as well as the Veracity Bob (name to be determined). This will be the first public listening session for the Veracity Bob prototype. It is a ML TQWL (Mass Loaded Tapered Quarter Wavelength Tube) design featuring the G2/W18 combination.
> 
> 
> See you there.
> 
> 
> - Jim*


----------



## Jeff Hovis

A couple of people have asked me about my dead links much earlier in this thread. Here are the new links to the speakers. I hope to have updated pictures of my completed HT in a couple of months. It is in the midst of being brought up to AVS standards. I'll have properly treated walls and some new furniture. Someday, I'll also have a fancy ticket window like JL. Here are the speaker links: http://home.mindspring.com/~jhovis/diy_sonosub001.htm 
http://home.mindspring.com/~jhovis/audax_center001.htm 
http://home.mindspring.com/~jhovis/a...peakers001.htm 

jeff


----------



## safaa

hello

well i didn`t get the metrial for the sub on time ,

so i went to home depot , i bought a sheet plywood ,

cut to 4 parts 24``x48``

download all white paper for adire shiva mkIII,


here some pix i`ll post more when i finished, the driver will be hear Friday,


put the amp 300-793 is here

i`m gonna need a four legs 3.5`` long x 2.5`` wide where i can get these, or should cut a piece of ok then i stain it.


thanks safaa


----------



## safaa

the box is glued . i`ll round the edges , sand it then stain it


----------



## safaa

last pic


----------



## Johnla

safaa



Just curious as to why you went with veneered true plywood, and not a veneered MDF core plywood.

I'm sure that you must have wanted to probably avoid having to veneer regular MDF, as the main reason.

I know both Home depot and Menards have both versions in my area.


----------



## J. L.

safaa,


You are quickly making sawdust... I was nowhere near as fast.


The pictures look good. Looks like you are building one of the reference designs... that is likely to lead to success.


You could use some scraps of the same plywood to make the feet of your sub, or go with something more elaborate. I saw someone in another thread use short sections of 3 inch diameter PVC as feet for their sub. Painted silver, the PVC looked pretty good.


Tell your wife HAPPY BIRTHDAY from all of us here at AVS.


Joe L.

(I hope you remembered to get her a birthday card!


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


Your speakers look like they turned out great!


As for the Veracity kits, I'm still working on it - have to generate the cabinet drawings (which are rather complex). I'll announce here when ready. And I'll be posing another batch of photos of some new cabinets shortly. I've got a pair in the works done in redwood burl and I think these will be stunning.


- Jim


----------



## safaa

hi

THANKS J.L for support.

the design is for shiva 85 L

i did it in 3 hours, with friend help he got all the tools.

i sand it today,

i got these legs from home depot $2.95 each.

i had to cut them to be 3.5`` long, they will be stained as well,

just wait for drivers to come,




when my wife saw it she almost screamed , where you gonna put this , look at all these speakers.

i said i`ll move some of them









i was not ready to tell her that i`m making another one, she was not ready either.


i hope she like sound out this, this way i `ll be able to make the other one.


----------



## safaa

i forgot to attach pic


----------



## SnowDog12

Hope I'm not threadjacking here with all my additional questions about building a sub, but my assumption is that most folks building a lot of these HT speakers are also interested in a high quality sub as well.


So, here's my question. Looking at the plans for the Adire reference subs based on the Tempest driver, they don't account for mounting a built in plate amp. If I make a cut out for one, do I need to account for the decrease in internal volume because of the portion of amp that protrudes into the cabinet? If so, how? Just guesstimate it?


----------



## safaa

hi

i think adire tech they knew that,,, the amp is only 3.25`` in depth, and its sealed, so assuming that you doing 85L or 95L sub. lets say that you making a 90L sub so you are in safe measurement.

i think

here a pic after i stained it


----------



## safaa

here anothe one


----------



## safaa

Just curious as to why you went with veneered true plywood, and not a veneered MDF core plywood.

I'm sure that you must have wanted to probably avoid having to veneer regular MDF, as the main reason.

I know both Home depot and Menards have both versions in my area.

=====================================

i don`t have experience on veneering wood , but i always loved the nature look of wood ,

i would love to go solid oak but its too pricey ,


----------



## Johnla

No, you got me wrong. I did not mean using pure solid wood. But rather the MDF that comes with a veneered face. As you can buy it like the veneered plywood that you used, with various veneered wood choices. Most people advise against using a solid wood for making speakers.


----------



## safaa

hi

johnla . i misunderstood you,

home depot ,, they only have that kind for shelving , which it comes 12`` wide and 2`, 3`,4`, long, which i won`t be able to make the sub with 12`` , i needed a 19``x20``x19`` to make the enclosure.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Are you guys making your entire cabinets from plywood, or are you adding an outer layer to MDF? I have read lots of things that say MDF is by far the best material.


----------



## wyrdone

MDF is by far the best for sound. However, it lacks some very notable aspects that others (like myself) don't like. Those being:


1) structural integrity is MUCH less than cabinet grade ply.

2) Looks damn ugly in it's normal state

3) Requires a lot of filler depending on brand of MDF

4) Sucks up paint like no tomorrow.

5) on average 50% heavier than ply.


Ply is much more structurally sound, easier to finish (especially if you get the Oak/Birch/Maple Plys), and with modern cabinet grade ply there are either little or no void spaces (at least with the stuff I buy from the local lumber guys).


Granted using Ply takes a bit more thought in designing cabinets since you will want to cut your edges on a 45' Bevel (so you get a nice clean edge and not see the "ply").


I personally would trade the minute difference in sound for the added benefits of using Cabinet-Grade Ply.


I just finished building a triplet of the REV's MorePee/PeeCreek using Red Oak Ply and with one coat of stain and 3 coats of Poly they look stunning. (Which helped with Spousal-Approval-Factor







) and they Sound absolutely wonderful.


----------



## SVonhof

wyrdone, another way of using the plywood without having to do 45 degree corners is to use 3/4" 1/4 rounds on the corners. Here is an example:










I nailed the corner round on one edge of the plywood, then when ready to put everything together, nail the rest of the edges, then go over the edges with a flush trimming bit, so that it cleans off the edges, in case I am not 100% lined up (never works out that way).


----------



## moonhawk

Baltic Birch and/or "apple ply" are the best grades, 13 plies and no voids...


Many designs now use these products instead of or together with MDF...bonding two dissimilar materials helps them cancel out each other's frequencies, and eliminate unwanted resonances.


Beveling the edges on plywood indeed hides the plywood interior, but means you can't have a radiused edge, which virtually every speaker designer says makes a worthwhile improvement in sound.... Many get around this by gluing a corner strip of hardwood to the edges before glue-up, then radiusing after.


For the small Northcreek speakers I'm building, I used veneered MDF and plywood for the basic box, and added solid Maple and Cherry for the top bottom and face...Since I used 6/4 stock, I will be able to use a large radius roundover for all edges.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

My first speakers were made with 3/4" MDF with a 1-1/2" baffle. I agree about ugliness...that is why I veneered them. David Ellis and if I remember correctly, Dennis Murphy, recommend MDF and only MDF. Jim Salk, what do you say? Home Depot does have the veneered MDF but I was going to use a more exotic veneer on the 1801s. The other thing about veneering MDF is you have a near seamless finish. I have a small seam in the rear and the top and bottom joints are almost undetectable. I do agree that it would be much easier to work with the ply and much easier on the contents of my garage (DUST!).


BTW, Scott, that speaker is a beaut! Wyrdone, post some pics if you can.

jh


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *BTW, Scott, that speaker is a beaut!
> 
> jh*



Too bad they are now all covered up! The back speakers (that was my old center channel, but is now the rear center) are covered in fabric slip-covers made of the same material used on the upper section of the walls. My front main speakers are covered in black speaker grill cloth.


----------



## moonhawk

Baltic Birch has 13 plies...count them...also cones in 5 foot square sheets, not 4 by 8. It is much denser and more dimensionally stable. Usually available through hardwood suppliers. Also ask for Apple ply, 4x8, also 13 ply, same types of sources, finished with maple in fact, I think it's Maple all the way through.


If you like that Bird'seye, buy some, use it for something else, or bonded to MDF. Usually at home Depot, that's an accidental bit of good fortune, and you shouldn't count on being able to get it anytime.


As for the corner bead, yes 3/4" square and rout it, or buy it rounded as some have suggested on this thread.


Have fun...


----------



## the bomber

MDF is a far superior medium to use for speakers than plywood. 13 ply MAY NOT have any voids but it is much less dense and resonates more than MDF which colors the sound. You are much better off making you speakers out of a high quality MDF (not the stuff you get from Home Depot) and veneering it. If your cabinet construction is good, you can even black lacquer them for a truely stunning finish. If you're worried about stability, MDF is very stable and you can also build up two pieces for added stability.


JMO...Bomber


----------



## the bomber




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *My first speakers were made with 3/4" MDF with a 1-1/2" baffle. I agree about ugliness...that is why I veneered them. David Ellis and if I remember correctly, Dennis Murphy, recommend MDF and only MDF. Jim Salk, what do you say? Home Depot does have the veneered MDF but I was going to use a more exotic veneer on the 1801s. The other thing about veneering MDF is you have a near seamless finish. I have a small seam in the rear and the top and bottom joints are almost undetectable. I do agree that it would be much easier to work with the ply and much easier on the contents of my garage (DUST!).
> 
> 
> BTW, Scott, that speaker is a beaut! Wyrdone, post some pics if you can.
> 
> jh*



Jeff,



Are you sure it's MDF and not particle board?


Bomber


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Bomber,

I'm not sure what you're asking. If you're asking about my speakers, yes, I am 100% sure I used MDF. It is commonly available in 3/4" and 1/2" 4x8 sheets as well as pre-cut 12x96 and 16x96 lengths. My Home Depot even sells it in other sizes like 2'x4'. If you're referring to my 1.5" baffle, I made that by gluing two 3/4" pieces together. I have built many things from MDF and I know the difference between MDF and particle board. My speaker build is detailed much earlier in this thread.


If you're asking about Dave Ellis, he specifically says MDF on his site. Here is the link to what Ellis says: http://www.ellisaudio.com/hardwood.htm 



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by the bomber_
> *Jeff,
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure it's MDF and not particle board?
> 
> 
> Bomber*


----------



## the bomber

Mea culpa Jeff,


You mentioned THD having veneered MDF. I guess I don't realy understand what you ment by that. In any respect, I certainly didn't mean any offense.


Bomber


----------



## jsalk

Baltic Birch (13 or more ply - not the kind of thing you normally find at Home Depot)) is a very good material for speaker construction. That and MDF are really the only conventional materials to consider. Some speaker builders prefer Baltic Birch, saying it is more "musical." I don't know if I agree, but you can't argue with success.


- Jim


----------



## moonhawk

Bottom line, I guess...

do what the speaker designer recommends.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Bomber,

OK, now I understand what you were asking. I've seen the laminated stuff at THD, but never paid much attention to it. Others have said that it is MDF and I take their word for it. I'm going to stick with 3/4" MDF and some semi-exotic veneer on the 1801Bs. As far as being offended...not me. That's the problem with email and forums like this...typed words can make it seem that way.

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by the bomber_
> *Mea culpa Jeff,
> 
> 
> You mentioned THD having veneered MDF. I guess I don't realy understand what you ment by that. In any respect, I certainly didn't mean any offense.
> 
> 
> Bomber*


----------



## the bomber

Cool...we're on the same page. Veneered MDF is the way to go. Here's a not so good shot of a speaker I made. Sides are 1" MDF and baffle is 1.5" MDF. The veneer is curly cherry, the base is bubinga and the all important drivers are Dynaudio D260 tweeter and 17W74LQ woofer.


Bomber


----------



## the bomber

here's a shot of the back.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Now that's a good looking speaker. Is curly cherry the same as ropey cherry? Oakwood Veneer has ropey, but not curly.

jh


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


The terms can vary greatly in terms of how vendors apply them, but generally, "curly" refers to figuring (the 3-dimensional patterns that are superimposed on the grain structure). "Fiddle-back" is a version of curly with tight figuring.


"Ropey" cherry refers to a highly intricate grain structure with various cherry colors in the mix. It could also be curly if it had figuring on top of this grain structure (I suppose), but generally is not.


I hope that answers your question.


As far as pre-veneered MDF, I generally stay away from it as the veneers used are generally quite bland and unimpressive.


- Jim


----------



## the bomber

Jim's exactly right. Many veneer vendors/processors apply their own names to their veneers.


FWIW www.joewoodworker.com has an excellent selection of veneer.


Bomber


----------



## J. L.

My Adire Tempest Sonosub is now re-assembled and back in operation.


In an earlier post I described how the MDF I had used to make the bottom end-cap had split (or cleaved) under the stress of the strong bass (probably caused by a Romulan Warbird) Since that time, I disassembled the sub, repaired the end-cap using baltic birch plywood for the layer that had been damaged.


This time, to better distribute the stresses, I also used screws through the three layers of the end-cap placed every few inches around the perimeter. It was comforting to see that the original glue I used was stronger than the MDF. To attach the plywood layer I used some Gorilla Glue. I used the same glue to plug the original holes in the end-cap with dowels.


I needed to reposition the holes for the threaded rods because I had cut the inner hole (for the driver) in the plywood end-cap slightly larger. The Gorilla Glue swells when it cures as it absorbs moisture from the wood and provided an air-tight seal around the dowels.


Last night I had a few friends over for a movie. The sub survived another attack by the Romulans and emerged from the battle unscathed. One of my guests owns a 15 inch commercial Klipsh sub. I think he was very impressed with the Tempest Sonosub...
























Joe L


----------



## the bomber

Joe,


Where did you get your sano tube. My local Home Centers only carry the very thin walled variety. I remember years ago when pouring some footers for a tool shed I was able to get high quality tubes. Now they seemed "vale engineered" to death.


Bomber


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Bomber,

You have to go to an industrial supply store. Look in the yellow pages under concrete and call some of those guys. I bought an 18" tube for $65. You'll need a truck or a van to carry it and probably a saw to cut it in half...they are only sold in 12' lengths. I still have a 6' section left and I may make a shorter one to go with the big one.

jh


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Joe,

Which episode is it that the Romulans are so nasty?

jh


----------



## the bomber




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Bomber,
> 
> You have to go to an industrial supply store. Look in the yellow pages under concrete and call some of those guys. I bought an 18" tube for $65. You'll need a truck or a van to carry it and probably a saw to cut it in half...they are only sold in 12' lengths. I still have a 6' section left and I may make a shorter one to go with the big one.
> 
> jh*




Thanks Jeff!


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


Startrek Nemisis... Quite a few battle scenes with pretty loud bass.


Getting the Sonotube home... My wife's Jeep has a roof rack, I tied the Sonotube to the roof-rack, secured it with a few rubber bungee cords, added two tie-down straps through the doors and drove back to work (I picked up the Sonotube on my lunch hour!) Pretty sure it must have gotten a few strange looks from others walking by, but, it was not *that* noticeable on top of the car. After work, I simply drove home trying to keep the speed down a bit from normal.


Bomber,

The official "Sonotube" brand tube I used probably only has a 1/4 inch thick wall. It is the circular shape that allows it to deal with the intense pressure of the concrete (or the battle blasts of the Romulans)


The smaller diameter sizes sold in the home center stores are not subjected to anywhere near the stresses as an 18 inch diameter 12 foot long column of cement and are probably even thinner walled in their construction.


Joe


----------



## clross

It has been quite a while since I have posted on this thread. I can't believe that it is still going! Lots of good info. I finally just finished my Audax home theatre speakers!!!! My wife is real happy with them (and the fact that I now have to get back to my regular chores instead of working on the speakers!!!!) I haven't put the rear speakers together yet, as I need to save a little more money to buy the guts, but I built all of the boxes. I'm currently using the fronts, center, and subwoofer from the Audax website and they sound and look awesome! I followed the plans exactly using 3/4" and 1" MDF except I put a 3/4" radius on the vertical edges. I finished them with a mahogany veneer and three coats of a hand rubbed satin polyurethane finish. This was my first time to veneer, but I had lots of tips from a guy at work who used to be a cabinet maker. Just watched 2 Fast 2 Furious last night and nothing shakes the walls like a good American V8 coming through that sub! My wife was trying to work upstairs and said all the walls were shaking! I'll have to rent Star Trek Nemisis and try it out.

I'll post pictures tonight or tommorrow.


On another note I am so frustrated! I have noise coming through my system that I cannot seem to get rid of. I'm not very informed on the in's and out's of isolating the electrical noise. I'm running the system on my regular electrical outlets in my living room. I have my DVD, receiver, and cable box on a decent surge protector on one outlet. I have my sub on a different outlet (same circuit though). The noise is not noticable in the fronts or center when listening to anything, but if you hit mute on the recevier, you can then hear the noise. The sub on the other hand is very noisy. During scenes with little bass, you can here the sub humming quite loudly. Madisound said to use a three prong to two prong adapter, but this did not have any effect. The noise is much louder when my AC comes on. I'm hoping there is an inexpensive solution to this. Any help would be appreciated.


P.S. Thanks J.L. for the info on your system. That's what convinced me to give the Audax system a try.


Thanks,


Chris


----------



## safaa

hi

its done , i`ll do major testing tomorrow


----------



## Johnla

safaa


It looks good.


But I think you better screw in those driver mounting screws a little tighter, before you start to do your testing...


----------



## safaa

hi

i did, i was in a hurry to post the pic.



i`ll test it with star wars race part.

thanks for complement


----------



## J. L.

Saffa,


Are you still planning on giving it to your wife as a (late) birthday present? I think she will be proud of your work. We would love to see a picture of it on its feet.


Oh yes... let us know how it performs. (Once you tighten down the mounting screws on the driver







)


Joe L.


Expect to find a few rattles in the room


----------



## SVonhof

Saffa, you may want to check the installation of the amp to make sure that the heat-sink fins allow for proper cooling. It looks like the fins are going to run horizontally, instead of vertically, which could be a problem when the amp needs to cool off. I could be wrong, the pic you posted is more of an overall pic, not a zoomed in one of the amp.


----------



## SnowDog12

So, is everyone in agreement with Safaa that adding a plate amp to the Adire reference design won't make much difference in terms of the reduced internal volume? I was thinking about adding another inch or two to its internal volume vertically to make up for it. If I understand Adire's reference designs (which do NOT account for a plate amp), it looks like the more internal volume, the higher the Q rating. I'm planning on building the one with a Q of .707 and don't want to go much farther below that if possible.


----------



## safaa

hi

J.L

here is sub standing.


SVonhof, you right i switched to the right position.



i connected to the amp via sub woofer RCA. that was too loud even on 1\\2 volume. my ears hurt.

my wife came out . all the rooms are shaking. its too loud,

so i connected via LF\\RF preamp 20Hz\\20kHz , i set the frequency to zero , which will give only rumble bass if it present.

it sound very good.



i had to take off two of the floor speakers 3 ways >to get away with the sub.

she does not know that i have another driver and amp in closet. i`ll give her some time to like this one. then , i said we should get another one. one is not enough, i don `t know what is going to happen then.


----------



## pontiacgagt

looking for some good DIY speakers in the 6-8 Ohm range to use with a standard AV receiver. I understand that alot of the kits/setups here result in 4 ohm speakers. I will be driving the speakers from a Yamaha RX-v2400


Thanks

J.D.


----------



## safaa

hi

i personally like seas,scan speak, for mid woofer, midrange,

for tweeters morel,


http://www.zalytron.com/ YOU COULD LOOK HERE FOR WHAT YOU NEED

GOOD LUCK


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JD,

I built the Audax front and center channel speaks spoken of in this thread. I'm using a Denon AVR1803 which is rated to 6ohms. It has had no problems with the load. I'm still considering an AVR 3803 and I think it is also a 6ohm receiver.

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by pontiacgagt_
> *looking for some good DIY speakers in the 6-8 Ohm range to use with a standard AV receiver. I understand that alot of the kits/setups here result in 4 ohm speakers. I will be driving the speakers from a Yamaha RX-v2400
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> J.D.*


----------



## Wombat2

CLRoss


You might like to look at this link. The replies near the end may be of help

http://www.instantboard.com/users/ro...?t=59&start=45 


David L


----------



## franlofter

Great thread wow, Can you guys shoot me to a link where I can get Complete plans on 12 sub powered with drivers wood everything I need to get started??


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Here is a list of subwoofer kits available from Parts Express. I think Scott Vonhoff built a 12" Titanic sub. A few pages back, I posted 3 or 4 links for sonosub plans.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....7&WebPage_ID=3 

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by franlofter_
> *Great thread wow, Can you guys shoot me to a link where I can get Complete plans on 12 sub powered with drivers wood everything I need to get started??*


----------



## franlofter

Thanks for link does not seem to go to sub kits but I found them. I am a Carpenter and Want to make box myself Just was hoping I could find a set of plans for a Powered 12 sub without alot of searching so I could get started on sawdust and order Amp and sub. I have been reading this thread for 4 nights now without posting,alot of the links seem to be dead.


----------



## safaa

hi

you can go to www.adireaudio.com 

they have 12`` and 15``, and also they have white paper for their drivers, and what needed to be done,

get the amp from partsexpress is less money,


http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/ShivaWhitePaper-V2.PDF 

this for shive mkIII 12`` as an example.



http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/summaries.htm here is specs for driver,

http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/shiva_apps.htm fere is link for

measurement for recommended box




good luck


----------



## Jeff Hovis

franlofter,

In what part of the country do you live? I have some sonotube left and if you're close, you can have that.

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by franlofter_
> *Thanks for link does not seem to go to sub kits but I found them. I am a Carpenter and Want to make box myself Just was hoping I could find a set of plans for a Powered 12 sub without alot of searching so I could get started on sawdust and order Amp and sub. I have been reading this thread for 4 nights now without posting,alot of the links seem to be dead.*


----------



## timle

madisound.com seems to have some descent subwoofer kits. http://www.madisound.com/sonicraft_sub_kit.html 


I haven't heard any of these. Anyone got any opinions I'm thinking about buying one without the cabinet to try my hand at building my own. I've built many car boxes. I think building cabinets for a 5.1 system is in my near future. I plan to also use the Audax kits.


By the way this thread is awesome. Finally read the whole thing. Wow guys, great accomplishments all over the place!


----------



## safaa

hi

any advice on putting 2 two way seas .

they will be as 2 speakers in 1 enclosure. each 2way has its own xover .

they will be connected to amp as L\\ R speakers.

i did this to conserve space. i`m going to have to rearrange layout for all speakers to get the balanced sound.


thanks safaa


----------



## Jeff Hovis

safaa,

Is this what you're looking for?
www.ellisaudio.com 

Check out the 1801B. IMO, you don't need a speaker that good for HT. I'm building these for my 2-channel stereo system. Also, Madisound has several Seas kits

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by safaa_
> *hi
> 
> any advice on putting 2 two way seas .
> 
> they will be as 2 speakers in 1 enclosure. each 2way has its own xover .
> 
> they will be connected to amp as L\\ R speakers.
> 
> i did this to conserve space. i`m going to have to rearrange layout for all speakers to get the balanced sound.
> 
> 
> thanks safaa*


----------



## franlofter

Jeff, I am In AZ and hopefully the outdoor temps will be dropping soon perfect time for weeknight project, Thanks for all the Links Safaa great plans there, I had one Question If I wanted very Tight bass no boomy here what would be better sealed or ported??


----------



## Jeff Hovis

It was a beau-ti-ful 70 here today.

jh



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by franlofter_
> *Jeff, I am In AZ and hopefully the outdoor temps will be dropping soon perfect time for weeknight project, Thanks for all the Links Safaa great plans there, I had one Question If I wanted very Tight bass no boomy here what would be better sealed or ported??*


----------



## franlofter




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *It was a beau-ti-ful 70 here today.
> 
> jh*



Nice, thats what temps will be here in january, Thanks for all the help guys found everything I need to know about bass response box size, sealed ,ported etc in spec sheets, I will post some pics of my finished product this is my first attempt at a Sub.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *It was a beau-ti-ful 70 here today.
> 
> jh*



And it was a beau-ti-ful, Marlins 9 Cubs 6, night here in Chicago tonight.....



HEY, what can I say. I'm a true White Sox fan. So I CAN'T root for the Cubs, no matter what!........


----------



## pontiacgagt

Can someone please post the complete drawings for the Audax center, main, and surround speakers. I am hoping to get the cabnet drawings as well as the crossover skematics with parts list.


Thanks

JD


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Well, I was a Braves fan long before moving down here. I think that most Braves fans were rooting for the Cubbies.

jh



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Johnla_
> *And it was a beau-ti-ful, Marlins 9 Cubs 6, night here in Chicago tonight.....
> 
> 
> 
> HEY, what can I say. I'm a true White Sox fan. So I CAN'T root for the Cubs, no matter what!........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


----------



## cjd

A note, since it may help some of y'all... I've come across a couple articles on glues and the like recently and figured I could share.


For this type of work, good old white Elemers all-purpose glue may be the best choice! It's the same stuff as the yellow carpenters glue, with longer drying time (more room for you to fidget) and no yellow die - it dries clear. However, it's thinner which makes it less useful for filling gaps and for general carpentry (where it was designed to be used!) For fine, close fit joints (cabinet-making, and the like) the white glue works great.


Gorilla glue is a completely different type of glue, and may actually have a weaker bond when working with MDF. It's designed to be used where weatherproof is key, and it needs some moisture in the wood to really bond as well as it can.


For J. L.'s sonotube issue, I would have pondered through-bolts (much like retaining wall anchors work) or, as he did, not use MDF.










Though, I'll be installing an IB manifold sub. Strong response to 5hz just tickles my fancy for some unknown reason. And, of course, opposing drivers mean any big forces end up being cancelled out.


I need to find a good built-in speaker solution though. (This, for a home-theater).


C


----------



## msieweke

Jeff,


The complete plans for the Audax home theater speakers were posted in message 363 in this thread. But there are a few minor errors in the plans. Do a search in this forum for "audax" and you'll find a thread with fixes for the plans.


Mike


----------



## pontiacgagt

Audax.com does not seem to exist. I am looking for the detailed construction drawing for the complete audax HT line.


Anyone?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JD


If you order the parts from Madisound, you'll get everthing at a 10% discount. They'll even assemble the XOs for you (correctly). I say that because the Audax site has a mistake on the XO. Just go to Madisound.com and you'll see it. It all comes in a very nice package with instructions and schematics for each speaker. They even include a couple of bags of Polyfil, foam, screws, posts, speaker gaskets, speaker wire and even solder. I didn't use the foam and followed JL's lead by using eggcrate foam. I also used larger Monster XP wire inside and a set of nice gold binding posts from Parts Express.


My Center: http://home.mindspring.com/~jhovis/audax_center001.htm 


My Fronts: http://home.mindspring.com/~jhovis/a...peakers001.htm 


My Sub: http://home.mindspring.com/~jhovis/diy_sonosub001.htm 

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by pontiacgagt_
> *Can someone please post the complete drawings for the Audax center, main, and surround speakers. I am hoping to get the cabnet drawings as well as the crossover skematics with parts list.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> JD*


----------



## SnowDog12

Jeff's right, and that's exactly what I and most othes in here did - just give Madisound a call and they'll hook you up. I was initially going to solder my own xovers from their schematics, but I discovered that it would have cost me MORE to buy everything separate than what they can get it for wholesale, so you'll even save money doing it that way (having them do the assembly work on the Xovers). Word of advice - if you're building the cabinets yourself and aren't an expert cabinet maker, make the rear channel speakers first. They're smaller, less complicated and not out in front of everything in case you make some mistakes!


----------



## pontiacgagt

I can get the parts locally but being from Canada the currency exchange, duties, shipping I am not saving any money by ordering from the US.


CAD drawings of the cabinets would be great if someone would like to post them or send them to me [email protected] 


as for the crossovers, I have done electronics work and am comfortable tackling the constrution from scratch (actually I prefer if I built it myself).


Thanks


----------



## safaa

hello

i just build this cabinet a few hours ago . its for 2 sets of two ways , SEAS speakers.

its left to be glossed.

i bought the ply wood last night, design it, went to my friend around 12pm , done with stain, 3:30 pm.

now its night here, in morning it will be taking first face of gloss


----------



## safaa

here another pic for back


----------



## msieweke

pontiacgagt,


Go to message 363 in this thread, and you'll find a PDF File of the complete plans, with a few minor errors. Do a search in this forum for "audax", and you'll find a message which lists the corrections. Go to http://www.hometheaterhifi.com and click on the DIY link, and you'll find an article on building the Audax center channel.


Mike


----------



## pontiacgagt

I have that document thanks. This document makes reference to "Also see the more detailed PDF drawing". These drawings are what I am looking for.


any help would be great.

thanks


JD


----------



## safaa

its done now. here is the pic.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JD,

If you have access to a fax, PM me the number and I'll send you everything I have.

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by pontiacgagt_
> *I have that document thanks. This document makes reference to "Also see the more detailed PDF drawing". These drawings are what I am looking for.
> 
> 
> any help would be great.
> 
> thanks
> 
> 
> JD*


----------



## franlofter

let me ask you guys something, It will cost me around $350 to $400 to build my 12" Powered Sub, If it is built right will it rival much higher priced subs?? or could I get close to it just buying a $500 sub?? allready built


----------



## Jeff Hovis

franlofter,

I built my cylinder sub for $300-400, I think. I guarantee you it sounds as good or better than a $1000 sub.


----------



## franlofter

Jeff, check this out >> rava These are all the same parts I would be using to build my sub and they are selling it allready built for same price, What gives??


----------



## Johnla

When it comes to smaller subs like the Rava, by the time you buy a good quality driver, a plate amp, and a pre-built cabinet. Then you do not end up saving much if any money over buying the same thing assembled. It's when you want to go beyond that, by buying the driver, buying the plate amp, and building your own cabinet or enclosure over buying a pre-built one, that you save money and get more than your moneys worth with your finished product.


A good 12" driver and plate amp should be around $250, add in about $25 or so for the MDF and such, to make a small sub cabinet like the Rava has. And you should be able to do as well as it for a bit under $300 total. But boost up either the quality of the driver and plate amp, or add in the cost of a pre-built cabinet/enclosure over making one yourself. And you will not save money over buying a Rava that's already made.


Face it, the just a bit under $300 price is about the lowest it will cost to start making a 12" powered sub, no matter how small it is. When you use a plate amp that will cost at the least, about $100, and a good driver that starts out at a cost of about $130. And you can really blow that price point by upping the quality/price of either the driver or amp.


Adire's "dealer cost" of all the components to make them, still probably allows them a profit margin of somewhere about $60-$90 per sub I'd guess. Even though it's pre-built for you, and selling for just a dollar under $400 for the cheaper version of it.


----------



## safaa

hi

i ordered a sub before i built mine, i though i won`t be doing right,

but i took the challenge,

that how much it did cost me to build a shive MKIII vented L85.

$40 plywood oak finished 3\\4 `` 4`x8 `.

$125 shiva driver 12`` MKIII.

$130 amp parts express.

$12 vented tube flared PE.

$15 4 bunn legs for the box.

$ 8 stain+ gloss+glue.

$50 for my friend for helping me.


for damping i used some old foam i saved form pc`s boxes.

so total is $380. plus total of 6 hours time.



now i ordered one from acoustic-vision.com that before i decided to build mine,

here is the prices without $130 amp without $125 drivers,

the price here it just for box and cut holes and vent tube

$265 for box, veneered.

$20 legs

$19 vent tube.

$55 S\\H.

so total is:$359 add $255 amp+drivers= $614.

i would saved $234 if i didn't ordered second one.


----------



## jcebedo1

the best speakers I have ever built are a modified Sound Dynamics RTS-3. I just changed the enclosure and viola! It produces such an amazing sound! I have no idea why these cheap speakers sound so good.


I used to own Dynaudio Contour 1.3, I sold it since the SDs sounded more natural overall. I even did side by side comparison to the B&W Nautilus 805. Me and my friend were astonished at how close it sounded. Actually almost everything was the same except that the 805 had a little too much around the midbass and the treble was a bit too forward.


James


----------



## jsalk

Just returned from the Dayton DIY event where Dennis Murphy shared his modified Veracity design. It features a hybrid tranmission line/ported floor-standing cabinet that allows the W18 to exhibit flat bass extention down to about 32Hz.


These are probably not good candidates to use with a subwoofer since the roll-off is so shallow it would be difficult to successfully integrate. But they sounded really sweet.


I will build a pair for further testing and will post further impressions at that time for those who may be interested.


- Jim


----------



## SnowDog12

Yay, more sub questions!


Ok, I'm building a sealed enclosure based around Adire's 15" Tempest (you have no idea just how freakin' massive a 21.5" square box is until you're looking at it sitting on your bench and thinking "where the heck am I gonna put this thing?"). I have a couple of questions, but can only remember two from last night when I was thinking about it ..


1) In the HT room where I'll be placing it, and in the area where it will go I have two flooring choices (both already installed); one is carpet and one is hard slate tile. Which would be the better material to put it on? And if I end up putting it on the tile, should I put the cone spikes on the bun feet underneath it or not?


2) For the cross braces that go insice the cabinet, is it ok to stagger them? See, the plans call for them to intersect in the middle like a cross:


|

___|___

|

|


(top view)


But that makes it so that you can't use screws to hold the two pieces to the main center piece - what I'd like to do is to have them look more like this:


|

____|___

|

|


..so that its offset enough for me to be able to get screws into it. Would this be bad?


----------



## safaa

hi

with brace pieces , that what i did i glued them , then i used the gun to hold them to the sides,


----------



## SnowDog12

Safaa - I have no idea what it is you're saying about a "gun", but what I'm wanting to do is to use screws as well as glue for additional something.


My ASCII art didn't come out, but basically what I'm wanting to know is if its ok to offset the internal brackets so I can get screws into them while the glue sets. See, you can't clamp them when they're inside the box, even from the outside (too rigid).


----------



## SnowDog12

and does anyone have any comment about the tile vs. carpet thing for placing a subwoofer? I'm inclined to put it on the carpet, but am unsure of what to do.


----------



## hugenbdd

Hello

Just read most of the 38+ pages of this thread now and have a general question on the Audix Center and Front speakers.


How would these speaker do behind an aucosticly transparent screen (Front projection)?


My screen is currently on an interior wall in the basement with an unfinished room behind it. I would like to mount the speakers behind the screen and partially in the unfinished room(by cuttig a whole in the wall to place them).


I'm assuming that this would cause them to loose some of their soud qualities but I would like to get others opinions on this.


Thanks for any input.

Dave


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Dave,

I think the Audax speakers would work fine behind an acoustically transparent screen. However, you want to mount them in a wall with an unfinished space behind them. I think that would be a big problem because the front and center speakers are all rear ported. I think you'll lose a lot of sound. Also keep in mind the size of these speakers. The center is huge and weighs almost 50lbs. Mine are approx 36" from the front wall.

jh


----------



## hugenbdd

Thanks for the reply Jeff.


Size isn't really a problem, as I can cut the wall (just can't move it).


Do you or anyone else know of any sealed speakers of this quality that would work for this situation? Something maybe where the cabinet could be behind the wall and the face either flush to the front of the wall or stick out a few inches (if needed).


I'm pretty limited if I want to get ride of my Satalitte speakers that just barely fit around my current screen. So I was hoping that Acoustically Transparent screen and some type of speaker would work. Hopefully not the typical "in wall" speakers, as I'm pretty sure their quality is no where near where DIY stuff in this thread is at.


Thanks Again

Dave


----------



## J. L.

Snowdog12,


I personally would put the sub on the carpet and not on the slate floor.


Basically, the sub cabinet will vibrate on whatever surface it rests upon. (especially if down-firing)


If you put it on the carpet, the carpet and carpet pad will allow the box to vibrate a bit without making a lot of distracting noise. If you want, spike feet will increase the pressure on the contact points to help transfer some of the vibration to the floor. Be careful though, they might make more noise if they vibrate against the hard floor under the carpet.


If you put the sub on the slate floor, I would NOT use spikes, but instead I would use rubber feet to keep it from clacking and walking all over the place on the deep bass passages.


I know what you mean about the size of the enclosure. Just show your spouse a picture of the Sonosub either Jeff or I built using the same driver you are using. After seeing an enclosure nearly 6 1/2 feet tall, your box will seem quite reasonable in size.

*My DIY subwoofer is the tall cylinder on the right side of this picture of my theater*










I originally was going to place my sub in the corner. When I did, it vibrated, shook and rattled the entire adjacent wall. (I did not know how easy it was to rattle a wall) It now sits about three feet from the corner.


Joe L.


----------



## safaa

SnowDog12

i submit the pic for the angled finish nailer. it will leave 1 1\\2 `` nail inside

the brace and about 3\\4`` in the side. it won`t show the head of the nail.

you can fill the tiny hole with wood filling.

i put a nail every 4``. that after a i put glue on braces side all around. it can go no where after that.very very solid.



BTW it sound so good , a sub is a must in HT.

i can imagine how big 95L will be. mine 85 its big really.

i put the volume on 25% and its booming.

good luck with yours


----------



## jsalk

Dave -


You should definitely use a sealed design (or front ported) for an in-wall application. It should also be designed with baffle step correction appropriate for an infinite baffle.


- Jim


----------



## hugenbdd

Thanks Jim

I found these the other day, I think there was a link to them in one of the 38 pages.
GR Research A/V-2 


Under the kit link they have an option to make it front ported. Would these be a good choice? There are some good reviews out there on it.

AudioDIY Central 

AudiogoN 


Also, I'm not familiar with the Infinite baffle concept, do you know of any examples/kits?


Thanks

Dave


----------



## jsalk

Dave -


I wrote the review in audioDIYcentral, so I am very familiar with the A/V-2 design. For the money, it is hard to beat. The M130 mid-woofer is definitely an over-achiever in that it performs far better than its price would suggest.


I have not done a front-ported version, so I can't comment. But there are two issues here.


First, a front port is not optimum (although many speakers use it). The port allows the backwave from the driver to exit. This allows the driver to move more freely and provide deeper bass response.


If you can imagine it, the signal coming off the rear of the driver is 180 degrees out of phase with that coming from the front of the driver. When the sound travels through the enclosure and out the port, it is not in phase with the sound from the front of the driver. So filtering effects are inevitable.


A sealed enclosure eliminates this problem at the expense of efficiency and bass response. But if you're using a sub, the lack of bass response is not really a problem. Cross high enough and the sub can handle the bass.


The other advantage of a sealed enclosure is that properly integrating with a sub is much easier. A port extends the bass response, but at a certain point, it drops like a rock. A sealed design has a more gradual, controlled roll-off on the bottom end.


With most subs, it is not possible to create a mirror image of a ported design roll-off in the sub/main crossover region. With a sealed design, it is much easier.


The second issue is baffle step compensation. At the risk of gross over-simplification, when sounds at higher frequencies leave a driver, they tend to travel in all directions - 360 degrees. At lower frequencies, they are more omni-directional.


Compensation must be added to the crossover to address this behavior so that the response is essentially flat at the listener position.


When you mount a speaker flush with the wall, you have essentially created a baffle that prevents high frequencies from traveling around the baffle. So no compensation (or little) is required (and is not warranted).


Since almost all free-standing speakers are designed to deal with baffle step and it is not needed when mounting the speaker in the wall, the crossover must be modified for this application. Failing that, the response will not be correct.


A friend of mine is working on a brand new series of speakers using some new Seas drivers. The cost is reasonable and the performance is awesome. I just talked to him earlier today (for another project) and asked if he would be willing to modify his crossover design for in-wall applications. He said he would.


I don't know what the final cost will be, but if you are interested, email me and I can get you some specifics.


- Jim


----------



## hugenbdd

Jim

I couldn't find your e-mail address. I will try to PM you and send to the address at salksound.


I would like to use a sub in my H.T. so that helps with the issue of lower sounds.


And yes I would be interested in the new design of your friend.


Thanks

Dave


----------



## clross

I just finished my Audax HT speakers (just fronts, center, and sub). Still saving some money to buy the rears. Built the boxes my self basically following the Audax plans except for the sub. I did two internal braces that were different than what they called for. I tied the first brace into the PVC port so I could put a 3/4" flare on the inside as well as the outside. I purchased the entire kit from Madisound and got the larger plate amp for the sub. They are finished in a Mahogany veneer with a hand rubbed satin urethane finish. They sound awesome. Even in my large room the 12" sub is plenty strong enough to rattle the couch. Now if I could only get my Sony 2ES receiver fixed so I could enjoy them!!!










Attached is a picture of the sub.


----------



## clross

Here is an overall shot of the Audax center and one of the fronts on my DIY speaker stands.


This is the link for the stands if you are interested.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2821757#post2821757


----------



## Jeff Hovis

clross,

Beautiful job on the speakers. I also have these speakers and I know how big the center is, so that must be a pretty large TV.


----------



## clross

Nothing too much, a 42" Sony RPTV. If I had known about this forum, I probably would have ended up with a front projection setup, but such is life. It gives me something to look forward too!


----------



## pontiacgagt

What is the best method for attaching a crossover board to the inside of the speaker. Glue? screws? I dont want to attach it incorrectly then have rattling within the speaker


JD


----------



## J. L.

I used screws to mount my crossovers.


I did put rubber grommets (on the screws) between the crossover board and the enclosure to space the crossover boards away from the enclosure wall and to ensure no rattles occurred as the volume was raised.


Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof

I did the same thing as Joe for my crossovers. No problems and they have been running for about 4 years now.


----------



## SnowDog12

pontiacgagt - I used Carpenter's Goop on mind and it came out pretty nicely. I was going to use screws, but was fearful of the rattling thing. I think if I did it over though, or you're afraid of having to reposition them, Joe's idea of using screws and rubber grommets is a terrific one.


Guess what? Another Sub question!


As a reminder, I'm following the Adire reference design for the cabinet construction. I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts about this: instead of doing the three piece brace thing, would it cause any problems one way or the other if I used three 2x2" pieces lengthwise and crosswise for bracing? I could stagger them (think lincoln logs) so they'd all be solid from one side to the other, so it would look like 3 "crosses" separated by about 3-4 inches apiece.


----------



## jsalk

Here a simple tip for effectively mounting crossover boards with a single screw. Put a dab of silicone, hot glue or epoxy in each corner of the back of the board.


When you use a screw to attach it in the center, the dabs you added will provide damping and, provided the screw is tight enough, prevent the board from ever moving.


- Jim


----------



## Howard H

Could some one help me understand something. I bought the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook but still couldn't get the answer from reading that. I bought a pair of VIFA PL18WO09-08 woofers and the D27TG35-06 tweeters. I installed them in a .53 cu ft cabinet as recommended, built my own crossover, and believe they sound pretty good, but maybe they could use a little more bass. My question is I would like to entertain the idea of installing these in a floor stander size cabinet but don't know how to determine the size and port tuning for this.


Thanks,


Howard


----------



## SVonhof

Howard, it seems that you won't be able to get much more bass from the speakers you have chosen, since they are not meant to be used for low bass. The specs for this woofer are:

Fs: 38

VAS: 25 (liters)

Qms: 2.46

Qes: .40

Qts: .34

Eff area: 132cm2

freq range: 40-4000

nominal power: 100 w

nom inp: 8 ohms


With these specs, I am getting a sealed box with .26 ft2 gives a box Q of .707 and a F3 of 79hz. Ported, I figure you can do a box volume of .50 ft2, port tuned to 45.3hz, and the F3 at 48.7hz with the box Q at .56 with a 2" dia port that is 6.75 in long (or 3" at 16.29" long).


If you use a 2" dia port, you will be close to the proper volume with the box by just installing the port. Make sure you don't have any insulation in the port opening area though as it can inhibit air flow. This won't get the bass low enough to do home theater without a sub though. You need more area to get more bass.


----------



## SVonhof

BTW, I figured that out using the spreadsheet that I downloaded from Brian Steele's site: http://www.diysubwoofers.org/


----------



## Howard H

Scott, Thanks for the speedy reply, you came up with about the same specs that I came up with using Box-Port Design. The reason I asked my question is that I have seen a design using this woofer in a cabinet over 1.0 cu ft on Tony Gee's Humble Homemade Hi Fi website (Tempo Clone), but uses a different tweeter. And Parts Express mention that this woofer could be used from .25 to 1.0 cu ft. So I was under the impression that with a different alignment? I could get a larger volume and lower port tuning.

Maybe to get more bass I need to learn more about cross over design and baffle compensation. I dont have the capability or knowledge to do my own testing at this time but is something I will study in the Louspeaker Design Cookbook


Thanks,


Howard


----------



## SVonhof

Changing the volume will change the box Q, changing the way the frequncy rolls off as well as the type of bass that you get out of it (from tight and articulate to spongy and boomy). Make sure this is what you want to do before going for it. How about adding a sub to the speaker you already have while porting your existing speakers? Maybe a sub on each side, each one powered and use them as a base for the smaller speakers?


----------



## Howard H

Scott and others, I think that was the answer I was expecting, that a change might lower the bass , but would affect the quality of the bass. To clarify, my speakers are ported, 2" X 7" PVC. I am using these speakers for music only and do not want to add a sub. They actually sound pretty good and seem to go somewhat low, maybe I am trying to get too much out of them. I have Klipsch RF3ii series for the Home Theater with a sub. I like these DIY speakers better for music, they seem to have more clarity than the Klipsch even though the Klipsch have a little more bass.

I am starting to read up on baffle diffraction and compensation, would this help add a little bass.


Thanks,


Howard


----------



## Johnla

Bass Box pro comes up with this for that driver using a vented box. When you let the program itself to "suggest" the box size for you, and when it's set to optimize for bass.


Vb = 0.784 cu. ft

V(total) = 0.803 cu. ft

Fb = 35.47 Hz

QL = 7

F3 = 42.58 Hz

Fill = minimal


-vents-

No. of Vents = 1

Vent shape = round

Vent ends = one flush

Dia = 2"

Length = 6.927"


----------



## Howard H

Johnla, I wouldn't mind trying a box that size to see if the bass is better or worse, sounds like a good weekend project. The only problem would be the size would be somewhere between a book shelf and a floorstander, but I guess if I like the sound, I could build a Tower approximately 8"W X 10" D X 40"H and put a horizontal divider in so that the usable height was only about 26.5". I havent seen the spec V(total), is that the true size of the box allowing for the drivers and vent tube.


Thanks,


Howard


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Howard H_
> *Johnla, I wouldn't mind trying a box that size to see if the bass is better or worse, sounds like a good weekend project. The only problem would be the size would be somewhere between a book shelf and a floorstander, but I guess if I like the sound, I could build a Tower approximately 8"W X 10" D X 40"H and put a horizontal divider in so that the usable height was only about 26.5". I haven't seen the spec V(total), is that the true size of the box allowing for the drivers and vent tube.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Howard*



V spec for it, was 0.804 the second time I run it after adding in the thickness for the MDF to be used. Which I forgot to do the first time..

But before that, it was shown as being 0.803 in the above post.

Everything else stayed the same other than the V spec though.


The internal dimensions it came up with, when using 1" for the front baffle and 3/4" for all the rest was.


18.06" H

11.16" W

6.897" D


And the external was.


19.56" H

12.66" W

8.647" D


And of course, you could swap the W for the D, if you wanted to have a narrower speaker than 12.66" and to be closer to the 8" wide that you mentioned as a approximate size above.


----------



## Wombat2

Just been in a retail store with rooms set up to show various HT set ups. In the top of the range setup the sales person put on one of the scenes from Behind Enemy Lines where the Jet fighter is chased and shot down by a couple of SAMs.


I picked out the centre front row seat and sat down to watch. Well the effects coming from the sub were awesome. The vibrations and the explosions were sooo real.


When finished I commented on the sub and asked all about it - 12" down firing 800 Watt amp front port and said wow that is terrific. Then he said so you also liked the one in the SEAT. ??? WTF ??? There was a 10" down firing driver under the recliner I was sitting in - no wonder I was shaking with the pilot and his crew member - I was in the bloody plane with them!!!!!


GOT TO HAVE ONE


Anyone built a sub into a seat? Got plans? what did you do? Web site?


David L


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Wombat2_
> *
> 
> GOT TO HAVE ONE
> 
> 
> Anyone built a sub into a seat? Got plans? what did you do? Web site?
> 
> 
> David L*



No I never built one, but I did buy one of these chairs for use with my PC, and for playing games.

As I just needed to have my "rear end" rumble a bit when I'm playing Nascar Racing 2003.....









http://www.battlechair.com/


----------



## Rop

Actually, all you need is a bass-shaker. Parts Express has them. Just bolt to your favorite chair/couch and enjoy.


-Rob-


----------



## SVonhof

Wombat2, I have 6 Aura shakers, one for each recliner, and love them. Do a search in the accessories and general home theater forums for them. There are different options, all with different performance and cost.


----------



## SnowDog12

I also have some Bass Shakers, and the wife loves them! Though I suspect for different reasons than me...







But seriously, they're really cool. I don't think they replace a sub, but rather augment one.


----------



## DLK

Thanks for the classic AVS forum thread.


Are there any DIY designs similar to the D'Appolito system in terms of price/performance that do _not_ incorporate Audax drivers? Most of the stuff I see is significantly more expensive.


-Dan


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DLK_
> *Thanks for the classic AVS forum thread.
> 
> 
> Are there any DIY designs similar to the D'Appolito system in terms of price/performance that do not incorporate Audax drivers? Most of the stuff I see is significantly more expensive.
> 
> 
> -Dan*



Yep, there sure is. I just posted a few here in this thread, not that long ago.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...47#post2834447


----------



## jsalk

Dan -


Check out www.audioDIYcentral.com to see reviews of a few. There are many great designs out there, you just have to do a little research.


Designs using Seas and Scan Speak drivers (and Vifa to a lesser extent) are often quite good. The Hiquphon tweeters cannot be beat as far as dome tweeters are concerned.


Another few thoughts: 1) D'Appolito MTM designs can be good, but are not without their problems. 2) Great drivers CAN make great speakers. Mediocre drivers generally can't. 3) The crossover design is the key to a great speaker.


In regard to the last comment, there are many designs out there that have great drivers but mediocre crossovers. They result in mediocre systems. Unfortunately, suppliers make money by selling drivers. In order to do so, they have to offer designs using those drivers. So they cobble together a crossover to meet this requirement. The result: less than optimum performance. Again, it's in the crossover.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Dan,

Jim aka jsalk, turned me on to the Dennis Murphy designed XOs. From my additional research, I have found that he is a true XO artist. He designed the XO for the Ellis 1801B, as well as the MBO1, the Utopia OW1 and Jim's speakers. These are all more expensive than the Audax system. I'll be building the Ellis 1801B in December for my 2-channel system. If you are using it for home theater only, I don't think you need to go to audiophile quality speakers.


----------



## pontiacgagt

I have seen at least one design modifocation for the Audax home theater system. The mod was having the mains extended int floorstanding speakers but with the actual interal volume the same by putting i an interal bottom. Here is the site I saw them at

http://www.angelfire.com/music5/hometheater/ 


The question I have is does this affect the speaker in any way. I like this idea but do not want to compromise the sound of the speaker. Also if there are no effects, what would be a good height for them.


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


You are right about the cost of most Dennis Murphy designs. However, I think the MBOW1 is comparable in price. Also, I have it on good authority that there is also an MBOW1 3-way in the works.


pontiacgagt -


If the baffle width and internal volume stay the same, you should have no problems. If not, the crossover will no longer be appropriate for the speaker.


The best way to do it would be to build the cabinet in the exact same dimensions and then extend the front, back and sides to the desired height. You will end up with a false bottom (emply cavity).


There is no advantage to be gained if you do this. You are basically creating a wooden stand that is integrated with the speaker. And, if you do it, you will have to de-couple it or at least apply sound deadening materials to make sure this empty cavity does not resonate (at any frequency). If weight is not problem, I would consider filling the empty cavity with sand. I hope this answers your question.


As for height, the design axis of most speakers is tweeter level or a point between the tweeter and the mids (or mid-woofer). This should be at ear level when seated in the listening position.


- Jim


P.S. I just looked at the speakers in question. The only comment on this otherwise fine job, is that the roundovers were done on all the edges except the important ones - the front baffle edges. All others are purely cosmetic. Baffle diffraction artifacts can be significantly reduced with 3/4" or greater roundover (some would say 1/2" or greater) on the front baffle edges.


----------



## SVonhof

pontiacgagt, if you plan on building a sub, you could possibly build two smaller ones and have them be the bases for the front speakers.


----------



## Howard H

As I mentioned I would do, this weekend I built a .80 Cu Ft cabinet and installed my Vifa PL18/D27 Woofer/Tweeter in it. Though I have no way of testing the results other than my ears, I believe the bass was a little deeper and still tight and no audible differences to the Mids and Highs. So I have proceeded to build some floor standing cabinets (About 36" High) and will have only a small area that is an empty cavity not being used by the woofer. I have chosen to put this area on top, basically isolating the tweeter. Thank to all that have helped and any further comments would be appreciated.


Howard


----------



## SnowDog12

ok, panic has just set in because its my first sub. do you mount the sub on the inside of the chassis, or from the outside of the cabinet? i.e. bolted in using tnuts where the driver is flush against the inside of the cabinet wall, or by pushing it in from the outside of the cabinet wall with screws into the wood? I'm using an Adire Tempest.


----------



## SnowDog12

Follow up with hopefully less confusion - the Adire tempest arrived with a very thick cork/rubber kind of ring around the outside face of the driver, meaning that as you're looking at the driver head on its facing you. (with cutouts for the mounting screws/bolts) To restate my question, with the Audax kit, and presumably all drivers, you set the driver into its cutout hole from outside the cabinet and screw/bolt it down from the outside. The way this cork/rubber seal looks, it seems like they want you to mount it from the inside of the cabinet. If I were to mount it like a regular driver (from the outside), I'd have to use my own foam tape around the inside of the flange presumably, but I'm a little freaked out as to what that cork/rubber material is there for. Can anyone straighten me out on this?


----------



## J. L.

I think it is for those enclosures where the driver is mounted from behind the front baffle. Hopefully, the enclosure would have a removable back to allow access to the driver if the need to replace it ever occurred.


I used some of the closed cell weatherstripping supplied with the kit of parts delivered by madisound around the rear perimeter of my Tempest driver to seal it to the enclosure ans bolted it with "t-nuts" and cap head bolts from the outside.


Don't panic...


Joe L.


----------



## Johnla

I would say it mounts on outside. As to do it from the inside, you would almost need to have to build the cabinet around the speaker. And if it ever went bad, you would not be able to remove it without taking the cabinet itself apart in some way. Because the driver is larger than the hole cut in the cabinet for it. And that is also why sewer covers are round, and just a bit bigger than the hole they cover while recessed. So they can't fall into the hole/sewer.


BTW, a lot of drivers come with that cork/rubber ring on the front of the drivers. It's more or less a industry standard to have that there, even when it's not meant to be used. And having to make your own gasket, or to seal it with a "sealing" type tape or putty, is not that unusual to need to do either.


As J.L said, don't panic. And you'll get it all worked out and working just fine..


----------



## safaa

here is pic from out side mounted driver shiva mkIII

the enclosure is made by acoustic vision.

i got it today. looks nice . but is not made to adire specs. one brace of the two braces is missing







.

cut out hole made for driver to be sunk in.

i`ll do testing tomorrow, its late here now.

should i do daisy chain with other sub. or connect it to another pre amp rca. its pricey$$$.


----------



## SnowDog12

Ok, so the consensus is that I should mount it like a conventional driver, i.e. from the outside.


Is there any point rabbiting the cutout to countersink the driver? I'm thinking not, as that would only provide less material for "bite" for the t-nuts.


And bonus round - what the heck is that cork stuff for anyways?!? Its not even attached all that well, and is kind of loose. Weird...


----------



## moonhawk

Yes, rabbett the cutout...something about cutting down on interference from sound waves bouncing off the baffle...similar to why you want to radius the baffle edges.


I'm sure some more knowledgable members will explain this better...I'm still infusing myself with caffein....


----------



## SVonhof

John, the cork gasket, as Johnla says, is basically a standard. The driver can be mounted either way. If you mount it from the back, it will be recessed the depth of the material you are mounting to. If you want to recess it from the front, you will have to add material on the back of the front panel to allow more material to screw into, but reasons for doing all this depends on what the finished product should look like. If you are going to have a grill on the front, you could essentially do the same thing as flush mounting the driver by having the grill frame a solid peice with a hole for the driver to stich through and a rounded edge on that hole.

Here is a pic of the Parts Express Titanic 1000 sub I used:









If you look at the grill, if you were to instead of making a square cut-out with angled corners, make it a round cut-out, you will essentially flush mount the driver.


----------



## SnowDog12

I understand the reasons for doing that for the woofer drivers in the Audax kit, but it seems to me that with the amount of potential vibration coming off of this thing (its a 15" driver after all!) that I would want to not weaken the baffle area where its attached to as much as possible. Plus, bear in mind that this is a down firing sub and the driver is only 4" away from the floor. Would rabbetting the cutout really make that much of a difference?


----------



## SVonhof

The rabbetting of the hole would have less of an effect on the low frequencies. You really want the tweeters and mids flush mounted, but from my understanding, it doesn't matter as much for the sub, since it is harder to detect any differences in the sound. Sorry John, didn't realize your sub was downward firing in the last post.


----------



## SnowDog12

My last post was made before Scott's post. I understand now that the cork is a kind of "standard", but its still weird and more than a little confusing to newbies like me.


----------



## SnowDog12

Okedokee. I'll let you all know how it comes out then. Thanks everyone for the input and clearing up the whole cork thing. I still think its weird, even if it is some kind of a standard.










Since I've never installed t-nuts, can anyone direct me to a good tutorial?


----------



## SVonhof

BTW John, I have also noticed that many of the cork gaskets protect the driver from anything getting too close to the surround at full excursion. That way, if something leans against the sub, the cork will stop it and not let the item punch through the surround when it is going full stroke.


Don't know if that cork on the Tempest is thick enough to do that though.


----------



## SnowDog12

Its some pretty thick stuff, seriously. Its about 3/4", and very dense with a little bit of give to it.


----------



## SnowDog12

Adire emailed me back today (I only emailed them just last night - their customer service is quite good) with this to explain the cork ring's placement and purpose:



1. Protect the surround/cone during shipping

2. Protect the edge of the surround from tearing during installation

3. Allow for rear-mounting if so desired


So, mystery solved (kinda). Thanks again to everyone for their help. Still looking for a pointer to installing T-nuts tutorial if anyone knows of one!


----------



## J. L.

Snowdog12,


I would drill the holes so that the shank of the T-nut would fit snug, put some glue around the top of the "T" (being careful to keep it from getting in the threads of the T-nut, and then press the T-nut in place with a large "C-clamp"


Since my T-nuts were very close to the edge of the MDF, I pre-drilled (with a very very small drill) holes for the barbs. I ended up breaking off one of the barbs on each T-nut since it would have been over the edge of the MDF.


You can see the tops of my T-nuts in the following image... before I added the glue to hold them in place during final assembly.


I did not initially put glue on my T-nuts and learned the hard way that they don't hold that well in MDF when one fell off inside my sub when I was installing my driver. (and it was the one on the LAST bolt...it figures) I had to remove all the bolts, disassemble the end-cap, glue the T-nuts in place, and then re-assemble everything the next morning when the glue was dry.


The glue simply holds the T-nut while you are inserting the bolts. Once the bolts are in place, the glue really does nothing to hold the driver.


Good Luck... now you know as much as I do about T-nuts...


Joe L


----------



## SnowDog12

Thanks so much Joe. That's about as good of a tutorial that I had hoped to get. I just wasn't sure about what to do about the barbs. I was originally thinking of banging them into place with a hammer! Using a C-clamp seems like a much more elegant method though (and with less chance of damaging the surrounding wood!).


And thanks to everyone else too! I freakin' love this thread...


----------



## Howard H

Just wondering what the preferences were regarding to port location, front or back, I've seen many speakers both ways, I am looking to front port the speakers I am building. Is there any reasons not too.


Thanks,


Howard


----------



## SnowDog12

Flummoxed! Was wondering if anyone had input on this problem I'm having: just finished the Adire Tempest sub, and the output appears to be nearly non-existent. When I put my fingers on the cone, I can feel it moving, but very, very little. Switch it out for my Klipstch 10", and its working its little heart out. I'm using a PartsExpress 250W amp, and I'm pretty sure all connections are correct. I've got the two 8ohm pairs of connectors on the driver wired in parallel (all -'s and all +'s together), so they're operating at 4ohms (or should be), and the amp's leads are connected + to + and - to - into the driver. Since my 10" sub is functioning just fine, I believe I can rule out the amp, setup, etc.


Anyone have any ideas? If I connected a the dual drivers on the Tempest somehow wrong could that cause it? If I got my + and - bassackwards could that be the problem? Is it possible I've got a bum amp? (its green light indicates that its receiving a signal) Bum driver?


Physical inspection showed everything to be in good working order before installation. I'm just looking for any advice before I pull the amp out.


----------



## SnowDog12

Ok, got it fixed, emergency over. Turns out I wired the dual inputs in series instead of parallel.


And guess what that does to output, putting a 16ohm load on a 6ohm output (Denon 1803).


----------



## J. L.

SnowDog12,


Well...


Now that you have had a chance to try out your new sub...how does it sound? Do you have any pictures?


Joe L.


----------



## SnowDog12

Joe: I don't have any pictures yet, and might not until I get some sort of veneer on it. Just picture this: a very large, chalky looking (from the black anoline dye) box with a ton of screws all over it!










Sound: Holy cow! When I got it wired properly (really stupid mistake, that) I fired up the T-rex chasing the jeep scene in JP1, and whoa! It was literally shaking the rafters in the garage attached to the house (and adjacent to HT room)! My wife was out there and when I went out to tell her I got it right she said "ummm, I think I could have guessed that from out here".


Quality of sound: I'm using an Adire Tempest 15" driver. I don't think I'm qualified to properly judge the sound as this is the first subwoofer over 10" that I've ever experienced. It is extremely "boomy" and makes everything in the room (and most of the house) shake and rattle. Not badly mind you, but several exponential levels higher than the 10" Klipsch did of course.


I'm thinking its too boomy for me, and am going to play with the settings further. Right now the receiver and sub are set to xover at 80hz, so I suspect that I might need to play with that. I also have all other speakers set for "small", which I believe makes it so that all bass below a certain threshold is sent to the LFE channel.


Being too boomy for me, though, may not be too boomy for someone else since I've never experienced this outside of a real theater, per se. Its definitely cool though!


----------



## darthopus

Snowdog,


The boominess could possibly be caused by two things:


1. Have you calibrated the sub with a soundmeter and a test disk? If not you should definately do that. The output of my Shiva was far greater than my old sub and I had to recalibrate. A good rule of thumb is that whenever you introduce new equipment or move stuff around you should recalibrate.


2. Is the Sub in the corner? Due to space limitations I had to move my sub from the the near, middle left wall to the back of my room. I had a great deal of boominess after that and had to recalibrate.


I guess the moral of the story is to recalibrate. I use the RadioShack sound meter and Avia.


Hope that helps!


Don


----------



## J. L.

Snowdog,


Re-reading your prior post, I'll bet you not only had the voice coils on your driver wired in series, but that they were opposing each other since you had wired plus-to-plus.


Thus, one voice coil was trying to move the cone in, the other trying to move it out, and the poor driver was saying "make-up-your-mind-already







" Combine that with the resulting 16 ohm impedance and half the driving power not being available, well... very little sound... (The PE amp is 250 watts into 4 ohms, probably 125 into 8 ohms, and 65 or so watts into 16. )


It is no wonder you noticed a "slight" change in performance once the driver was wired correctly. (It is kind of hard to tell the real dinosaurs from the fake when they are shaking the ground as they walk







)


I will agree with darthopus, you may have to lower the volume on the sub to bring it in balance with the rest of your system. Also... did you buy the PE amplifier WITHOUT the bass-boost, or with? (You probably don't need any bass-boost) Fortunately, the amp can be modified to eliminate the bass-boost if you did not order the same unit I did. On the other hand, you may have to equalize the sub's frequency response if the boomyness is caused by your room.


Joe L.


----------



## safaa

hi

the last 3 days was home depot shopping , i got some tools.

i thought i give my sub a new look, to match the other box i bought ,

here is the pic for sub. the color before was dark brown,

i hope you like it , i also rounded the edges.


Finlay my wife agrees on second sub after i promised her that i will put the CRT PJin closet and put LCD PJ instead . take one giant out replace with another giant .

and she is happy with panny LCD.

works for me









i still have 4 speakers channel left on both amps. i don`t know if i will make those speakers , what kind of a bargain i`m going to have .


----------



## pontiacgagt

Well I ordered my MDF today for my Audax speakers. I have a friend who builds kitchen cabnets and gets the MDF a little cheaper. I have decided to build all the speakers at once including 2 extra surround speakers for a 7.1 system.


I have a few questions for those who have built the set of Audax theater speakers. I will be cutting all the MDF before I get the actual drivers and I want to verify the driver cutouts. I understand the measurement is wrong for the 6.5" driver. If I cut the cutout 1/8" larger then use a 1/2" rabbit around the lip the driver will flush mount perfectly. Is the measurement OK for the 5.5" driver on the center channel?


Also if anyone has any tips to make my construction go easier that would be great.


Thanks


JD


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## safaa

hi

if you ordered the drivers , wait , till it arrives then do the right measurement, its better that way,.



or you could build the box, leave the side where the drivers will be mounted, till you get the drivers then you do the cutout.

be patient,


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JD,

I believe I cut my driver holes 1/8" larger, then made the 1/2" rabbets. I learned the hard way after building the center channel first.
http://home.mindspring.com/~jhovis/a...peakers001.htm 
http://home.mindspring.com/~jhovis/audax_center001.htm 

Jeff


----------



## safaa

hello every one



i`m considering line array to build.


i see these drivers and tweeter at PE are they ant good to do line array 10 each.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=264-810 

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=270-045 


i attached a file for midrange layout, and it will also be for tweeters,

any thoughts will be very helpful

thank you

 

line array mids layout.zip 50.564453125k . file


----------



## Johnla

A few places you may want to take a look at, if your interested in doing a line array.

http://www.line-array.com/ 

http://forum.stryke.com/viewtopic.ph...e24b262859#top 

http://forum.stryke.com/viewtopic.ph...bcb7e24b262859


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## safaa

hello

is creative driver and PE drivers looks like they made by same company

TB speakers.

about shipping from creative they will consider 10 drivers as 1 driver as far the shipping concern,


is 1 ribbon tw enough to go with 10 mid woofer.


----------



## franlofter

Hi, Do you guys think I can make a center speaker that will match polk RTi70s ?? I have heard what polk has to offer in center speakers and really think there to high in the mids??


----------



## jsalk












For those who have expressed interest (others please ignore), the Veracity QW design is now complete. This design is based on the same drivers used in the Veracity HT1's, but takes advantage of a mass-loaded tapered quarter-wave tube (ML TQWT) cabinet design. This design is based on the pioneering work of Martin J. King ( www.quarter-wave.com ). (Naturally, the cross-over was modified for this new combination.)


The result is extended bass response and a more relaxed midrange. And the effects of the cabinet design are not subtle. Eveyone who has compared the Veracity QW's with the HT1's was clearly able to hear the difference.


The design was introduced at the recent Iowa DIY audio event and received top honors (highest scores in the competition). I have serious reservations about the validity of a "competition" such as this. None the less, it was gratifying that the speaker was well received.


For those interseted, I will post further background information on the ML TQWT concept on the Veracity web site in the next week or so.


- Jim


----------



## M NEWMAN

Those look very, very nice Jim. Are those Seas Excel woofs with Raven Tweets? That's what they look like... I like the front baffle treatment you employed to minimize diffraction - slick looking solution.


----------



## jsalk

Mike -


The drivers are the Seas Excel W18EX and the Arum Cantus G2. This is the same combination used in the Veracity HT1's. It is an awesome combination (of course I'm biased).


- Jim


----------



## jsalk

For those considering line arrays, Dr. Jim Griffin recently published a white paper on the subject and we have posted it for download at www.audioDIYcentral.com. 


Line arrays offer some significant advantages.


1) Volume falls off with respect to distance at 1/2 the rate of a point source speaker. So if you experience a 6db decrease in SPL when moving to the back of the room with regular speakers, you will only experience a 3db decrease with a line array. It also means the "sweet spot" is considerably wider.


2) Less sound energy is directed at the floor and ceiling so reflected sound is minimized when compared to normal point source speakers. This improves imaging.


3) Since many more drivers share the load, none needs to work as hard and distortion is minimized.


4) The increased number of drivers are wired in such a way as to increase the efficiency of the overall design. A line array is an easy load for virtually any amplifier, perhaps including SET amps.


5) Most importantly, they look really cool.


On the downside:


1) You need space and an approving spouse. You could always get a new spouse, but you may be stuck with your room.


2) For home theater, the center channel becomes a problem unless you have a perforated screen or use a "phantom" center. Although you can lay a cabinet on its side, they don't perform well in that position (they aren't designed on a horizontal axis). Using a phantom center is more workable than with point source speakers (due to the wider sweet spot), but is still not optimum.


3) Cost...and there is more to this issue than first might appear.


Every driver exhibits distortion and a certain amount of veiling. These are the two elements that affect sound quality. Drivers with lower distortion and minimized veiling generally cost more money. And here's the rub.


If you select a driver with a certain degree of veiling, it really doesn't matter how many of them you use in the array, the veiling will never be less than it is with the single driver.


That is the main reason I have not personally built a line array. The low-distortion/minimal veiling drivers I prefer offer exceptional detail and transparency. But they are costly.


If I use lesser drivers, I know I will benefit from the advantages that line arrays offer, but I will not hear the detail I am used to. And I am not willing to give that up.


On the other hand, if I use drivers that can deliver the goods, I will have to take out a second mortgage.


Neither is acceptable to me at this point.


When I consider the cost of a line array with moderately good drivers, I realize that same money will buy truly great drivers for a point source design. I may not end up with the advantages of a line array, but I will enjoy higher quality sound.


That said...as soon as I find those magic low-cost drivers, I'll be creating tons of saw dust. Of that you can be assured.


- Jim


----------



## safaa

hi

that all true, it just the fun of doing it. on the other hand

WAF is whole different thing.

i just just mentioned to my wife and showed her how they look like ,

no more speakers she said,

she said you can put them on paper but not in this living room








.

i said OK .

last three days i`ve designed more line array than i ever want, because i know i won`t be able to put them up,

one of the design would `ve been 93`` tall.

oh well i only have to wait till summer so she could for overseas vacation , so i could do what i want, put her on spot.

also , i may give my speakers a face lift . thats what she allows me to do for now.

she told me do some else, i said amps ,

as long as it going into the cabinet thats fine,she said.









i believe now there is no end when it comes to speakers , its always some new you can do.


----------



## rusalka

Hi I am considering building the Audax HT MTM's. They will be used 60%/40%, HT/Music. I will be building just the front L/R mains at first. The setup will be: Sony Grand Wega 42" CRT direct view, HK AVR 225, 10" Titanic or 12" Quatro sub, audax mtm's for front L/R, temporary cheap rear surround speakers (small cube style), and no center. The L/R speakers will be placed fairly close t the TV. I know it is ideal to have a matching 5 speaker setup, but time and money do not allow for me to build the complete Audax HT system.

My question is first do you think this will sound satisfactory for HT?

Second, how do the MTM's perform for stereo music (steely dan, DMB, beach boys ect.).


Thanks


----------



## SnowDog12

I would definitely go with the 12" subwoofer, no doubt about it. Bigger does make better for HT applications.


I'm not sure how not having an actual center channel will affect your listening, but I'm fairly certain that a good deal of audio content is sent to the center exclusively when using a Dolby Digital/DTS sound processor, i.e. if you don't have one, some content simply won't be present. In some extreme cases, some dialogue won't be heard! Someone smarter than me will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong.


I am a bit baffled, however, that someone that could afford a Sony GW 42" CRT can't afford the extra $250'sh for the Audax center.










Using cheapy rear speakers isn't nearly as bad as not having a center channel though, and I believe many folks that have posted here have done the same thing without too many complaints.


I have listened to my Audax MTMs using a wide variety of stereo musical sources, and can tell you that I found the experience to be quite enjoyable. I should warn you however, that I do not consider myself to be an audiophile by a long shot.


----------



## SVonhof

So you guys know, when you don't have a center channel speaker, the processor will direct the sound to the mains, that would be a phantom center.


----------



## jsalk

rusalka -


You ask very complicated questions. Here is some background info that may help you decide.


In the industry, Adax drivers (the speakers themselves) are considered "mid-fi" drivers. This should not be viewed as a negative. Most well-known retail speaker use what are considered mid-fi drivers. Hi-fi or reference drivers are quite costly and usually found only in retail speakers with names that are not very familiar to most people.


Adax drivers provide a great deal of bang-for-the-buck. Which is why they are popular. For HT, they do a good job (in general, HT sound is not that detailed).


If music reproduction is a strong consideration, there are many DIY designs that use better drivers. But , the better the drivers, the more you will pay.


In general, DIY designs will cost between 1/3 and 1/2 the cost of comparable retail speakers. So a pair of $250 DIY speakers will perform approximately like a $750 pair of retail speakers. A $500 pair of DIY speakers would cost about $1500 retail.


As you can see, the more you invest in DIY speakers, the greater the performance gain with respect to their retail counterparts. DIY allows you to leverage whatever dollars you have to invest.


There are many people who feel that investing in a higher quality pair of speakers results in a better system than 5, 6 or 7 lesser-quality speakers. I am not certain I totally agree, but I know many, many people who have traded their 5.1 systems for a good stereo pair (phantom center channel) and a good sub and won't go back.


Keep in mind that your speakers are by far the weakest link in the audio chain. Not that quality source equipment isn't important, but compared to speakers, it ranks a distant second in terms of quality sound reproduction.


Here's an example of what I mean. I was visiting my father after attending a DIY event in Iowa (where my latest project received the highest score awarded, by the way). Since I had the speakers with me, I thought I'd set them up and give him a listen.


I then invited an old audiophile friend over to hear them as well. He was blown away, but thought that his source equipment was not good enough for these speakers. That's when I pointed out that they were being driven by a $129 Sony stereo amp (its all my father had available). He was dumb-founded.


The point is this, if you are really concerned about quality sound, spend as much as you can afford on the speakers. And if you can't afford a complete surround set-up, you might want to consider getting just a pair to begin with.


On the flip side, high-end DIY designs are considered by many to be gross over-kill for HT. If music is not that important, then your needs are not as critical. I have had a number of people ask me to build Veracity HT1's for their home theater setup. In these cases, I tell them if they want to spend the money, that's fine. But if it is only for home theater use, I have plenty of lower cost options that would be perfectly adequate.


In the end, no matter what you do, keep in mind that, for the next few years at least, the quality of your music and HT experience will be greatly influenced by your speaker selection - more so than probably any other component in your system.


Whatever you decide to do, I'm certain you will be very pleased with the results and can take pride in the fact that they are your creations.


Good luck.


- Jim


----------



## moonhawk

Jim...


Not to put too fine a point on it, but in your opinion, if my main concern is high quality music, can I get away with high quality mains, and skip the center channel for HT?


I sit about 12 feet away from the screen, and do use surround/rear channel.


----------



## jsalk

moonhawk -


Let's set aside the issue of surround speakers, because they don't really impact the main issue here.


Many people employ the strategy you outlined rather than using the same money to purchase a greater number of lesser-quality speakers. Here are the issues:


A high percentage of the sound in HT is mixed to the center channel. This is primarily because most dialog happens on screen and it is somewhat confusing if the sound does not appear to be coming from the source.


When using a pair of speakers without a center channel, receivers create a phantom center channel image that is panned to the center of the main stereo pair.


If you are seated in the "sweet spot," the center channel information will appear to be coming from dead center - exactly as it should be. In this case, no center channel speaker is required. Provided your speakers are of moderate quality, your experience will be exactly the same as if you had a center channel.


When you move away from the sweet spot, however, the center channel information will shift toward the same side as you are seated on. The amount of shift is determined by how wide your speaker's sweet spot is. For example, this shift is much less with line array speakers than with normal point source speakers. This is because the volume of a line array falls off with distance at a rate that is roughly 1/2 that of a point source speaker. So the "sweet spot" is much wider.


So, to answer your question, you would need to determine where you (and your guests) are likely to be seated with respect to the sweet spot, how wide the sweet spot is and, finally, how important it is to you to have dialog appear to be coming from the source on the screen (in the event that you are occasionally seated outside the sweet spot).


If music is your main concern and your budget was limited, I would recommend purchasing the best pair of speakers you can afford. You can easily live without a center channel, in my opinion, until you can afford to add more speakers to your set-up. Many people have found this to be a very acceptable trade-off in order to achieve a better over-all performance. In fact, I recently talked to a major tube amplifier manufacturer who said his greatest source of business was replacing poor 5.1 channel HT setups with setups that featured a pair of high-quality speakers and one of his amps (of course).


Music reproduction will be much better. And if you and your guests are at least close to the sweet spot, you may not miss the center channel at all.


I hope this answers your question.


- Jim


----------



## moonhawk

Jim


Sure did...Thanks for the prompt and very thorough response.


Moonhawk


----------



## cjd




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rusalka_
> *The L/R speakers will be placed fairly close t the TV. I know it is ideal to have a matching 5 speaker setup, but time and money do not allow for me to build the complete Audax HT system.
> 
> My question is first do you think this will sound satisfactory for HT?
> 
> Second, how do the MTM's perform for stereo music (steely dan, DMB, beach boys ect.).
> 
> 
> Thanks*



What concerns me here is your statement that the L/R will be close to the TV. While you can get good phantom CC imaging in the sweet spot, you're not going to have particularly good imaging with mains only 5 or 6 feet apart (for music). On the other hand, you probably will discover that you don't have as much L/R as you do center. I've seen setups with a pair of speakers on either side of a TV as center, and the mains 15 feet apart or so.


Granted, the music you're mentioning probably isn't going to find imaging as critical - many rock albums just aren't mastered as well as they could/should be.


Jim is, of course, absolutely correct in what he's saying. However, he doesn't mention that if you're going for a set of speakers as good as his, I really hope you are able to place them well! Bad placement can make a great sounding speaker sound worse than cheaper speakers placed well. And, when you do place well, you don't have much room to share the phantom center with others (as he mentions).


All that to say - It probably is worth it in the long run to put together a center. And as far as matching goes, it's most critical across the front - not enough happens in rear channels for it to be that big a deal if they don't match as well. I would even suggest do the front, and don't bother with rears at all till later.


OR, have a completely different set of speakers for listening to music than you use for HT. You can spend less than the Audax kits cost and still have very good sound - plenty good for most movies. IMHO, anyhow.










Besides - you can probably make money selling your old kit to unsuspecting neighbors/friends when you decide you want to move up in the world and put together a better speaker.


C


----------



## jsalk

Please pardon, in advance, what may be a rather long post. But I was thinking about a project recently and the people who follow this thread may be able to supply some reactions.


As you can imagine, I have been receiving many inquiries about using the Veracity's in home theater applications. But there are a couple of issues to address in certain situations. First, it is rear ported and designed to be stand mounted (or mounted on an integrated sub). So it is not ideally suited for in-wall or flush-mounted applications. It is also a somewhat costly design (cost being a relative issue).


So I have recently been thinking about an alternative design to address these issues. Here is my current thinking:


1) It should be a sealed design so that it can be used in in-wall or against the wall applications. While bass extension will be limited compared to a ported design, it would be used with a subwoofer. So bass extension would not be an issue. In fact, the more gradual roll-off of a sealed design would be much easier to properly integrate with a sub.


2) It should use high performance, but less costly drivers.


The G2si true ribbon tweeter is slightly smaller than the G2 used in the Veracity design, but is about half as costly.


Seas makes some aluminum drivers that, while not quite as detailed as the Excel drivers, are quite good. Joseph Audio uses them in a 2-way that costs $2500 per pair (and they are not using ribbons with them). I have heard them and they do sound quite good. They cost roughly half as much as the Excel drivers.


Combining two aluminum Seas drivers with the G2si in a sealed MTM format would result in a reasonably-sized cabinet. The G2si could be re-oriented for use in a center channel.


Since the Seas drivers are 8-Ohm, the resulting speaker would be 4-Ohms and it should be sensitive enough to provide an easy load for any amp capable of driving 4-Ohm loads.


Provided the drivers can be successfully integrated (I haven't measured them yet), the result should be a high-performance system that, in kit form, would be priced about half way between the popular Audax speakers and the Veracity design (probably around $600 - $700 per pair). Performance would be closer to the Veracity than to the Audax.


Obviously, speaker design is all about trade-offs and there is no limit to what can be done when cost is no object. But I think this design might fill a void I have perceived in the home theater area.


In your opinions, would this be a project worth pursuing?


- Jim


----------



## SnowDog12

Jim - IMHO, it would indeed be worth pursuing. I am immensely satisfied with my Audax 5.1 set up, I have to say, but your option would give folks with slightly bigger budgets an alternative if they wanted to pursue the "hi-fi" road as opposed to the "mid-fi" road, or were planning on listening to a lot of music in addition to the HT applications.


Question for you guys - Scott mentioned that when you don't have a center channel the center information is mixed to the L/R mains. Jim and CJD expanded on that to discuss imaging, etc. Should I assume these things to be true only if you have something like "stereo" chosen, and are NOT playing the soundtrack in DTS or DDigital mode? And that if one were to be IN DTS or DDigital mode and unplugged your center channel, that you would, in fact, lose a lot of material?


----------



## Howard H

Snowdog12


I think you would have to tell your amplifier in speaker setup, that you don't have a center channel and then it would distribute the center to left and right for the phantom center.


----------



## jsalk

Snowdog -


Thanks for your reaction.


Howard is correct. When you tell your receiver that you do not have a center channel, it creates a "phantom" center channel image from the DTS or DD stream and pans it to the center of the left and right mains. Again, if you are in the sweet spot, you will hear essentially the same thing as you would if you had a center channel.


- Jim


----------



## SVonhof

jsalk, I think that a slightly more costly alternative to the Audax system would be a good idea, since as you say, some people have more money to spend.


That said, I don't expect any of the people in this thread that have already built their Audax kits to abandon them for your kit, as I am sure you don't expect either.


The advantage of using the sealed design would work fine, since almost everyone has one or more subwoofers in home theaters, especially if they would be spending the extra cash on the more expensive kit. Heck, my main speakers are sealed and have an F3 of 36 hz, but I have them set to small on the A/V processor, since I have two subs (plus, I don't want them to bottom out, since I am cranking the volume up).


Also, it would expand your customer base to more home theater, which many people are going for.


----------



## hugenbdd

jsalk

As I think you know from an earlier e-mail, I'm ready for this new kit!!! As I don't have the space and would put them "in wall" behind the screen.


So that's a YES vote from me.


Thanks

Dave


----------



## Ten 99

jsalk


You should do it to it. I think there's a definite want from some folks for a good DIY kit that utilizes some good drivers, and the ribbons would be lovely.


----------



## Matt Peacock

So, how are everyones Audax Home Theatre Kits coming along?


I'm back home in four weeks and intend to finish my stereo pair *coughs* yes they're still not done *coughs*


Pictures would be nice...


Matt


----------



## Griff

JL, Jeff & Matt, et al.,


I just got caught up on this thread! Amazing it's still alive! Hell, I forgot I'd even posted to it!


Anyhow, I've run the spiders off that had taken up residence in the boxes I built **coughs even more than Matt** 2 years ago. In my defense, I've retired from the Air Force, moved from Omaha NE to Dayton OH, started a new job that has me on the road quite a bit, and tried to make room in the garage to be able to work. Oh yeah, my mom-in-law passed away, and we had to settle her estate. So, it's been a busy year & 1/2!


I'm going with 4 of the L&R's and the center. I've got the room, and am looking into upgrading to SACD.


I've made a few mods to the box for the center. Where the back of the mid enclosure would go, I ran a piece all the way from side to side. I cut out the center of it on either side of the chamber. It really stiffens up the box. I made the front baffle out of 3/4" MDF, so I wanted to stiffen the box as much as possible. I don't expect any problems.


I also rabbeted all the edges of the box. It sure helps making everything line up. I saw where someone else had done this, and figured I'd give it a try. Worked great!


Now that I live in Dayton, I went to Parts Express and picked up all the drivers last weekend. I'm in the process of putting together a list for all the crossover parts. This is where my question comes in (you knew there had to be a question, didn't you?) Did all you guys order your XOs from Madisound? I'm planning on building my own, and was wondering if trying to upgrade the parts is worth the money. Jim Salk, please jump in... Those of you who bought from Madisound, do you know what manufacturer the parts are from? Are you happy with the sound?


I'm thinking about spraying the inside of the boxes with truck bed liner before I put the foam in. What are your thoughts on this?


Well, I've rambled enough for one post, so I'll get off here. Oh yeah, as soon as I figure out what I need to do to put my web page up, I'll get some pics up for ya to see!!


Thank you all so much! You're the one's who have re-kindled my excitement about getting this kit done!!!!


Griff


----------



## Teran

The latex based truck bed liners should be okay. I would be leary of the two-part stuff if the mix isn't perfect. I think a bedliner by itself isn't going to do that much except absorb some of the highest frequencies, which will be damped by the enclosure anyway. It might cut down a limited amount of high midrange reflections back through the cone.


----------



## jsalk

Griff -


Crossover parts are a religious issue (like speaker cables, interconnects, etc.). Either they make a tremendous difference or none at all. It depends who you talk to. So I will try to provide a balanced response.


If you belong to the "it doesn't matter" camp, as long as the woofer inductors are of sufficient guage and you use poly caps, you're pretty much OK. I know some pretty successful speaker designers who reside in this camp.


Many people feel that high-end capacitors and resistors make a significant difference. To the extent this is true, it is especially true for the tweeter section. Metalized Polypropylene caps are considered the minimum acceptable here and resistors such as Mills are farily standard.


Since high-end caps are much more expensive, one "trick" often employed to use a small value high-end cap to bypass caps in the tweeter section. Use a .01 or .1 uF cap in parrallel with the tweeter cap(s). It will have little effect on the overall value as measured in uF. The theory is that these caps will discharge first and the pair (the original cap in parrallel with the small high-end cap) will provide much of the increased transient response performance of a single higher-end cap. But since small value caps are less expensive, the total cost for high-end performenace is lower.


On the "spare no expense, it really makes a difference" end of the spectrum, foil inductors rule the day. The results are measurable. But are they audible? Probably, but I think you need to put the issue into perspective.


In terms of overall speaker performance, the two factors that exert the biggest influence are the quality of the drivers and, most importantly, the quality of the crossover design itself. Crossover component quality is simply the finishing touch.


I think the thing to keep in mind is that high-end crossover components will never compensate for lower performance drivers or a poorly designed crossover. At the same time, moderate-quality crossover parts will not significantly degrade system performance if the crossover is designed well for a specific set of drivers (in a specific cabinet).


My personal approach is based on what I perceive to be balance. If I am using mid-fi drivers, I do not go hog wild on crossover components. I may use high-end bypass caps in the tweeter section, but fairly generic parts for everything else.


On higher end designs, I do not risk short-changing system performance. I have found Jeff at Sonic Craft ( http://www.soniccraft.com/ ) to be a pretty good resource for reasonably-priced (relative term), higher-end crossover components. On these designs I normally use Mills resistors, Sonicap caps and Alpha-Core foil inductors. In each case, they provide high-end performance at a reasonable high-end price.


If you want to upgrade crossover components, I would recommend you start by swapping out the caps and resistors in the tweeter section. This is where you will get the most significant performance gains. Then I would concentrate on better, higher-quality, higher-quage inductors in the woofer section. Only when these are done would I deal the remainder of the components (although performance gains would be minimal).


I hope you find this helpful.


- Jim


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## Wombat2

There is a lot of talk about how critical the crossover design is, and how they should be matched to the drivers being used etc. With the plethora of web based crossover calculators its seems that very often the "calculated" values have to be rounded off to fit the manufactured component values. The components themselves have manufacturing tolerences so introducing variance to the design. Then again you can buy ready made crossovers for a given frequency - how matched are they to the drivers they are used with?


So what is critical? Is it the crossover point, the slope of the crossover, the losses if any? What variation are we talking about +/- 5, 10 or 20%.? in otherwords how close is close?


If you have two sets on drivers of same nominal impedence and similar response curves how far wrong can you be using a crossover designed for one of the sets in the other given the amount of variation in a system anyway?


Just curious and willing to be educated.


David L


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## safaa

hello

thats what i was thinking last a few days , does my speakers has the right xo, do i get the best performance out them, who would i know that.

my xo over is predesigned, for seas exel TW+mid WO

how i know this xo is best for my speakers.

then again if i want to change the values on xo , do i need to buy lots od resistors,caps, inductors and try them to see which one is better.



the speakers sound good. could they do better with different xo.


if any one interested in 2way seas layout xo let me know. i`ll mail to you, but let me know if this is the right xo for these speakers,


----------



## J. L.

Griff,


As jsalk said, crossover component quality to some, is *very* important. He makes a good point however, in that you should not get too carried away relative to the cost of the drivers.


With some of those same thoughts in mind, when I ordered my Audax HT kits from Madisound, I requested that the midrange and tweeter crossovers be constructed with higher quality "metallized polypropylene" capacitors.


If I remember correctly, they charged me for the difference in cost of the caps for the upgrade. (I seem to remember it was roughly $10 to upgrade the center channel crossovers using the caps I requested)


Now... did $10 buy the best capacitors in the world? I doubt it. Was it a reasonable cost relative to the drivers? I think so. Will I hear a difference? Maybe. Was it worth it to me to use the higher quality crossover components? Yes.


Joe L.


----------



## Griff

Thanx all for the replies. Teran, I'm not sure whether you think the truck bed liner is a good idea or not. Jim & JL, this is what I was looking for. There is a fine line between driver vs. XO cost. I don't have a problem upgrading the parts, just trying to decide how much is enough. Jim, went to SonicCraft's page. These parts are spendy, but not as abd as i thought they'd be. I may contact them and see what they think is the route I should go.


Still working on trying to get some pics up, but there's not a lot of diff from JL & Jeff's except a few details.


I'm gonna do a little more research on XO construction. I've never constructed one, but it seems to be pretty straight-forward.


I hope someone is archiving the vast amount of info in this thread, especially after I see the owners are doing some work on the site!


Thanx All,


Griff


----------



## Howard H

I second Jim's opinion of SonicCraft. Jeff at SonicCraft is extremely knowledgeable and willing to share his knowledge. His Sonicaps made a huge difference in my system over Solen Caps, and are about half the price of Hovland and other high end caps. Plus they come in more sizes than the other high end caps.


Howard


----------



## jsalk

Wombat2, Safaa -


I think J.L. got it about right with his cap upgrade. Better caps in the mid to high end will open it up and provide better detail via improved transient response.


As far as stock crossovers, component values, etc., I will try and address your questions/comments.


First, "ready made" crossovers are a ticket to disaster. All you are dealing with is the crossover frequency and the slopes. This does not address the many other critical performance factors in a speaker system.


If one of the drivers is more sensitive, it's relative SPL will be too high. If there are anomalies in a driver's response curve (which is often the case), they are not addressed.


Each specific driver has a specific set of T/S parameters (Theil-Small) which need to be taken into consideration. If you design a crossover without knowing these (and you obviously wouldn't if you didn't know what driver your crossover is being used with), the design cannot be any better than somewhat close.


Another factor is baffle step. This requirement is based on the drivers used, their placement on the baffle and the width of the baffle. Get it wrong and the critical midrange voicing WILL NOT be correct. That being the case, a ready made crossover cannot optimize system performance. When it was made, the designer had no idea what cabinet the drivers were being mounted in. It simply can't work.


The same can be said of most "LEAP design" services. Vendors offering this service often simply input the manufacturer's T/S parameters, pick the xover freqs, pad the drivers appropriately and print out the results. No driver testing is done to insure that the published specs match the actual performance of the drivers (in many cases they do not). Furthermore, the "designers" often have no idea what cabinets will be used (so baffle step compensation can't be correct). Unless they mount the drivers in your cabinets and test them, their xover designs can only be somewhat close.


As for the question about "two sets on drivers of same nominal impedance and similar response curves," it is not that simple. There are many other parameters involved. If you check a driver manufacturer's product line, you will often see a number of the same size drivers with slightly different T/S parameters. Even though they were built by the same manufacturer, have the same impedance and somewhat similar response curves, their performance is not the same and switching between them will result in a system that is only somewhat close.


As for the question of tolerances, resistors used are generally 1%. But inductor and cap tolerances are generally greater. The caps I use are rated at 5%, but I have found that they generally measure lower than the rated value. If you are doing it right, they best way to deal with it is to buy a batch, measure them and then tweak the crossover to compensate for variances.


The CAD software I use allows you to adjust the values based on measurements and re-optimize the circuit to achieve the same target response curve. So if a batch of caps measures 4.9uF rather than 5.2uF, I can re-optimize the circuit using the 4.9uF figure to achieve the same target response curve.


Good kit vendors measure every single driver and match pairs. A rare few actually mount the drivers, match the crossover parts in pairs, build the crossover and tweak it for uniform performance that is within spec. Naturally you pay for this extra service, but finished speaker performance is optimized and is as good as the drivers can possibly deliver.


This points out an advantage small kit vendors have over large suppliers or an individual purchasing components for a single pair of speakers. The small vendor can buy components and drivers in bulk, take the time to measure them and match pairs. So at a minimum, at least the speakers will be voiced similarly.


As I stated in an earlier post, the crossover is the single most important part of the system. A great xover can bring out the best performance possible out of mediocre drivers. But, even when used with the best drivers in the world, a poorly designed xover can result in a speaker that is simply unlistenable. In fact, the better the driver, the more likely it will have response anomalies that must be dealt with (ringing, peaks, etc.).


We're talking here about something that can be quite subtle. The difference between a xover that is close and one that is right on, is the difference between a speaker that might sound fairly good for short periods and a speaker that provides a long-term pleasurable experience.


For example, a tweeter voiced just .5 db too high in a certain frequency range can result in speaker that sounds quite good overall, but perhaps slightly "edgy". While it may sound pretty good for short periods, it quickly becomes fatiguing. (Which is why you should never judge a speaker until you have had an opportunity to listen to it for long stretches of time.)


This is a problem I have experienced many times first-hand. For example, a certain recoding studio monitor (I won't name it) sounds quite impressive for short periods. Their consumer speakers built on this reputation and have a great following. But when you spend hours at a time with them, their bright, forward presentation simply gives you a headache.


This is a problem with many speakers sold at retail. The lows and highs are accentuated in the xover design so they sound great in the showroom. But it is simply unpleasant to listen to them for extended periods of time. Unfortunately, people often do not associate their physical reaction with speaker performance. They simply don't listen as much because they don't enjoy the experience.


This is especially critical in home theater applications where you listen for at least 90 minutes or more at a time. If the speaker is fatiguing to any degree, your entire home theater experience will be a negative one.


This might help illustrate why crossover design is much more complicated that it would first appear. It is as much of an art as a science and takes more than just knowing the theory.


Many people understand the theories involved. But there are a rare few who have a demonstrated track record for successfully putting that theory work on a consistent basis.


Dennis Murphy is one such individual. Like many others, he understands filter theory and has a good grasp on the technical issues. But what sets him (and others with similar track records) apart, is his acute sense of hearing. Dennis is a classically-trained musician who performs on a regular basis. He knows exactly how things should sound and tweaks his crossover designs until he gets them right (or as close as the drivers allow). I have never heard a design of his that was not listenable for extended periods of time - one mark of a truly great crossover.


Again, when it comes to speaker performance, its in the crossover. I hope all this rambling proves helpful.


- Jim


----------



## safaa

The same can be said of most "LEAP design" services. Vendors offering this service often simply input the manufacturer's T/S parameters, pick the xover freqs, pad the drivers appropriately and print out the results. No driver testing is done to insure that the published specs match the actual performance of the drivers (in many cases they do not). Furthermore, the "designers" often have no idea what cabinets will be used (so baffle step compensation can't be correct). Unless they mount the drivers in your cabinets and test them, their xover designs can only be somewhat close

===============================


hello

thats what i have leap design made for zalytron.

the caps are good quality .


i attached a xo layout,is all this values good for peak performance or at least close.

is there is any different layout xo for 2ways seas. i would like to try it.


----------



## jsalk

safaa -


Since I can't measure them alone or mounted in your cabinet, I can't comment on the xo design.


I assume when Zalytron generated the design, they were either using Seas stated T/S parameters or, better yet, they actually measure them.


The one thing you have going for you is that if they used the Seas stated parameters, at least they should be close. Seas manufactures to fairly tight tolerances and the stated parameters are usually quite close to the measurements.


If you purchased the xo design as part of a kit, the baffle step compensation my be accurate (since they knew what the cabinet dimensions were going to be).


The W18 has some resonance issues that need to be dealt with. I can't tell without simulating the design if your xo takes this into consideration.


You might want to send your xo diagram to Dennis Murphy ( www.murphyblaster.com ) for comments. He may or may not be able to answer your question better. I don't think he has used the tweeter you are using, but he is the W18 xo champ for sure.


- Jim


----------



## Griff

Jim,


I have no test equipment, no electronics background, and a wallet with a limit. How does someone in my position go about getting the best bang for the buck on a published design, i.e., the Audax HT. One of the driving factors in picking this design was the crossover is already designed, the center had a mid-tweet flanked my mid-woofs (Sorry, I have a hard time calling a 6 1/2" driver a woofer), and it was reasonably priced. Some of the systems my wife and I were considering at the time were Boston Acoustic, Def Tech, Paradigm, and B&W. After extended listening sessions, the only system we kinda liked was the BA. We were trying to find a place that carried Atlantic Technology, but were unsuccessful.


I am a "learning" woodworker, but like it a lot. A friend of mine suggested building my own. I had tried this in High School, with disastrous results!! At that time I had no idea there were electronic parts in that box!!


So how do I (and I'm assuming a lot of others) get there from here? I'm not afraid of getting some basic test equipment, or a nominal outlay for some software, BUT, I don't see me building speakers for a living..


However, being the enthusiast that I am, I am doing my best to get my family and friends to share in this disease, er, I mean Hobby! So I could see me building speakers for friends & family. I would like to get results that are better than what they can buy for the same money..


HELP!!


----------



## Johnla

I would think, that the software such as Leap, Crossover Pro, and Soundeasy/Boxcad. Can probably only give you a good, to maybe a very good starting point for a crossover at best. And then from there you will need to tweak the designs they generate as needed. But that you could also do about the same as they do, if you are good at doing math problems on paper if you can't afford or don't wish to spend that amount on one of those programs. Crossover Pro and Soundeasy/Boxcad are somewhat affordable for most people, but Leap is another story, as it's much more costly than the other two programs. But from what I can see, it may do a lot more also. The Soundeasy/Boxcad program, looks to me like it might be the most "bang for your buck" program for in the under $250 range, and for those who are interested in maybe getting one programs that are more in the affordable range.


----------



## jsalk

Griff -


There are a great many DIY designs available and most will perform at a level comparable to a retail speaker costing twice as much or more. More expensive designs will be comparable to a retail speaker costing three times as much.


I would not recommend trying to "roll your own" the first time around (and perhaps never). The results will probably not be that good and it may turn you away from a wonderful hobby.


Start with a good kit or a good published design. A kit is often preferable because the designer supplies all the appropriate parts (so you don't need to worry about getting that part right).


The Audax HT designs are very popular and definitely should be considered. Not having built them, however, I can't comment on their relative performance.


Although not a kit, my personal favorite for a first time project is the MBOW1. The cabinet is easy to build and the finished product is of very high quality.


In this case, the fact that it is not a kit is not a problem. Danny Richie at GR Research ( http://www.gr-research.com/index.htm ) has assembled all the parts with the exception of the tweeters. The OW1 tweeters can be ordered from Dave Ellis ( http://www.ellisaudio.com ). And all the plans can be found at http://www.murphyblaster.com. 


The OW1 is one of the finest dome tweeters available today.


The M130 mid-woofer is about the best low-cost driver around and constantly gets rave reviews from experienced speaker builders. It is definitely an over-achiever.


The Dennis Murphy-designed crossover is 2nd order providing extremely smooth integration between the drivers.


Basic tools include a good soldering iron, a plunge router, a Jasper Jig (for cutting holes), clamps and glue. If you don't have a good table saw, you can usually find a cabinet maker who will cut the panels for you at a reasonable cost.


You can see some basic speaker-building FAQ and tutorials at www.audioDIYcentral.com. 


If you build a pair of MBOW1's, you will be hooked on this hobby. You will be amazed at how well they sound. What's more, it will provide you with the confidence needed to tackle more complex designs as you expand your reach.


Everyone I have ever built these speakers for has been extremely pleased - some to the point that I cannot convince them to upgrade. As a matter of fact, I'm building two pairs right now - one for a classically-trained professor at the University of Minnesota who is a fanatic for detail. When he heard them, he fell in love.


As you continue to research the hobby, you will find many, many great designs, both published and in kit form. Generally, the best of them come from small designers rather than from the major parts suppliers (who publish designs mainly so they can sell the drivers and crossover components). There are exceptions, but this generally holds true. Some names include Ellis Audio, BESL, North Creek Music, Dillon Acoustics, and the list goes on.


Whatever you decide to do, just go for it. You'll be glad you did.


- Jim


----------



## jsalk

Johnla -


You can add LSPCad to your list of reasonably-priced speaker design software. And Speaker Workshop is free.


But keep in mind, these are extremely powerful tools. Mastering their use only comes with time and experience. (If I had a truckload of top notch tools, I still wouldn't know how to build a house.)


Designing speakers from scratch is a great learning experience. But realize it will probably take at least a year or two before you are able to generate designs that are even close to some of the better DIY designs available.


Attend any DIY event and you will hear great designs and dreadful designs - all designed with the help of these systems.


So if what you are looking for is great sound, you are probably better off building proven winners.


- Jim


----------



## safaa

hello

thanks for reply

i bought the speakers and xo parts from zalytron. i put the xo parts together.

this xo is made for 1 cu ft ported box 2`` diam 5`` long.

i had to say the speakers are great sound like no other, but i`m not sure if this all can i get out them

for example

i drive all my speakers via htpc sound is great , but when it come to stand alone cd player its not as good as htpc, my receiver is HK 5.1 and sony 6.1 .



now i had to seal the box to get better sound out the speaker and it does.


i have two set of 2 way in 1 box sealed.

i was under impression that 2 way alone in box will do good using seas.

it does. but MTM is surly better . that what i understood from zalytron . now i believe it.

because the 2\\2ways in 1 box are better in sound than 2 way2 boxes.even if the boxes next to each other .

i also feel that exel 18ex its kind a weak. the detail are there but not a strong speaker like scan speak.the T25c tw is great.

that why MTM is better than 2way box.

my next seas will be mixed with scan speak in 1 box as MTM


i visit murphyblaster site he has seas tw with L17 seas also the xo for tw way different than mine.
http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=seas_L17.html


----------



## Griff

jsalk,


Thanks once again for your insight. I'm a fairly experienced woodworker, and tools to accomplish this are not a problem. I have a limited amount of soldering experience, but am not leery about putting a crossover together. I've been an avid music junkie since I can remember. My first assignment in the Air Force was overseas to Okinawa Japan. I was in stereo heaven! I ended up with a Yamaha separates, Akai reel-reel, and JBL L112 speakers. I didn't like the sound if Japanese speakers, and for whatever reason, I could get JBLs cheaper there than the States!


I have been wading through the LD Cookbook, and surprisingly, to me at least, I understand most of it! I would like an opinion on what would be some decent test equipment to start with. If this turns out to be something I don't stick with, I don't wanna be in too deep.


For the purposes of this post though, I was trying to get an idea of what crossover parts are worth upgrading for the Audax HT. I'm already starting to think about who's going to get these, and which set I want to go with next. A lot will depend on what we end up with as far as the house hunting goes. Until I know what I'm going to end up with for a theater room, I'm not going to make a final decision.


To summarize, does everyone agree upgrading the caps for the mid and the tweeters is a good route for this kit. I guess I should call it a plan instead. I'm very interested to hear your opinions.


By the way, I poked around your site. What beautiful speakers you build! As a woodworker, the build quality caught my eye immediately! I would love to be able to hear these sometime. Maybe the next Dayton DIY meet you'll bring a couple of these?


JL mentioned he upgraded his caps and seems to be pleased with the results. I want to get these done and be able to use them, but I may build another center just for experimenting and tweaking purposes. Maybe I better make sure I can get to the XO's in this set in case I decide to make some changes : )


As a newbie into the DIY speaker building scene, this thread is worth gold! Once again I would like to thank everyone who has responded, and let's see if we can set an AVS record for the biggest thread!!


Thanx!


Griff


----------



## jsalk

Griff -


Why not start out with zero investment?


Speaker Workshop (free) is not the most powerful speaker design system out there, but it has basically everything you need to get started. They also have a forum where you can discuss issue with others. Check it out at:
http://www.speakerworkshop.com/ 



While their routines are a little more advanced, the FRD Consortium has a series of free programs to explore all sorts of speaker-related issues. They can be found at:
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/frdgroup.htm 


You can't beat free! Later, when you decide to go full bore, you can purchase more powerful tools and you'll already know basically how to use them.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Griff and others,

As JL said, I bought my XO from Madisound. I did the same as he did on the upgrade. It was pre-assembled and all I did was solder the wires.


As for the Audax system. I've listened to others that cost waaaay more money and they sound good but 3x more? I don't think so. For HT only, I think the Audax system is a great bargain if you're willing to build them. I also had/have an Energy Take 5 system. They were great in a smaller space but the Audax does beat it. I use two Energy speakers as surrounds and one as a rear and fortunately, they blend pretty well.


Since you are building your own XO, I have attached some links for assembling them:
http://www.solen.ca/cross.htm 
http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_fi...xo/xoconst.htm 


As Jim said, Dennis Murphy seems to be godlike when it comes to XO design. BTW, the plans for the MBOW1 3-way are up on his site now and I may build that for my 2-channel system upstairs. I've been set on the Ellis 1801B (XO designed by Dennis) but I can build the new MBOW1 3-way for less.

Jeff


----------



## Teran

What I like about Dennis Murphy's designs...


He doesn't push the bass anywhere near resonance. This allows for a cleaner midbass, which are what the drivers are anyway.


Even in the 3-ways the bottom octave is still there for a sub-woofer to handle. A good active 15" sub with a low distortion driver would go well with the MBOW1 3-ways.


His 3-way really rounded out his designs. Doing it with separate bass cabinets is just that much smarter.


If you look at how Dennis' designs have evolved over the years I think you'll see that he has been very frugal, re-using boxes, drivers, and crossover components. As he continues to develop he puts changes back into what he has already built, usually because he is using speakers he built as his reference and mules. This means that a lot of the improvements he comes across can be added to your speakers.


Dennis has a very developed ear. I don't think there are many/any who could object to the voicing on his speakers. He knows how to bring drivers response curves together for the flatest fit and then how to clean up any artifacts caused by the enclosure or drivers. Very polished.


He picks _very good_, but affordable drivers. They are good enough that you have abundant detail, but not so great that you can't stand to listen to music anymore because all you hear is how bad the source is. Excellent value re price vs. performance.


Can you tell I'm a fan?


----------



## safaa

hello

i have a pair of these AR pro monitors for about 8 years they are in closet due to sum of diy speakers+WAF.

they sound really good

i missed them so i took one out . i want to look at XO to see what look like.

i found only two caps all drivers are grouped in parallel.

is it possible to do a XO for it.



TW KSC 77ap45-FF 3.6 Ohm CAP 4.7 MFD 50 VDC +\\-10%


MID KSC 10DP45-FF 3.3Ohm CAP 10 MFD 50 VDC +\\- 10 %


WOOF KSC -------------- 4.9 Ohm NO CAPS


----------



## safaa

HERE IS xo PIC


----------



## Teran

I saw a post on this speaker that mentioned LPad pots for the midrange and tweeter. ???


How much of the LPads range do use?


4.7uF 3.6 Ohms Capacitor = 9397.16Hz

10uF 3.3 Ohms Capacitor = 4818.18Hz


So you currently have a high pass on your midrange at around 4.8KHz and a high pass on your tweeter at 9.3KHz. Probably just enough to keep them down at driver resonance and from burning out. The woofer is playing fullrange.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys, I would like to poll those of you who have built speakers: I ask this because I used 12ga wire inside my sonosub and 16ga MonsterXP inside my Audax HT speaks.


1> I'm starting to buy the parts for my new 2-channel speaks and since I'll be assembling the entire XO, I'm wondering what size wire to use. I notice that Parts Express has some 16ga Hook-Up Wire that come in many colors. This seems like the way to go for XO assembly. Any opinions?


2> I'm probably going to use pegboard as the base for my XOs and will run the wires through the holes and under the boards. Has anyone else used pegboard?


3> Dave Ellis says that a properly braced cabinet doesn't need sound deadening material. I plan to use some anyway and since these will be high quality speakers, I want to use a good material. In the Audax system, I used eggcrate mattress foam from Wal-Mart and it worked fine. For the new speakers, I'm considering Black Hole 5 or some of the vinyl material that is sold at PE. If the eggcrate stuff is just as good, I'll use it again. Any thoughts?


4> As for XO parts, I'll follow the recommendation of Dennis Murphy who designed them.

Jeff


----------



## safaa

*I saw a post on this speaker that mentioned LPad pots for the midrange and tweeter. ???*

--------------------------------------------------teran

i ran to some of the numbers you mentioned 9397 hz

the sticker on box says



mid freq 43hz to 25khz

high freq 98db per watt


nominal impedence 8 Ohm



can i make a xo to fit all 3 drivers out come 8 Ohm

where i get a 3 ways lay out xo


thanks


----------



## cjd




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by safaa_
> *I saw a post on this speaker that mentioned LPad pots for the midrange and tweeter. ???
> 
> --------------------------------------------------teran
> 
> i ran to some of the numbers you mentioned 9397 hz
> 
> the sticker on box says
> 
> 
> 
> mid freq 43hz to 25khz
> 
> high freq 98db per watt
> 
> 
> nominal impedence 8 Ohm
> 
> 
> 
> can i make a xo to fit all 3 drivers out come 8 Ohm
> 
> where i get a 3 ways lay out xo
> 
> 
> thanks*



what? I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here, but here goes a shot at an answer, perhaps.


A crossover will generally have the impedance of whatever driver(s) cover the frequency range you're looking at. Impedance isn't static. That said, yes - a 3 way XO can end up being 8ohm nominal. Usually, impedance issues addressed in a XO are to tame peaks though. A speaker rated 8ohm may dip below 8ohm for a bit, but generally not for much - all frequency related though.


The specs you list are, I would hope, range for the entire component set put together. Is there a range given on that output rating? (+/- 3db?)


C


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


To address your questions:


1) This is a religious issue. I use either oxygen-free copper or silver wire. But you will probably get much the same results from just about any good wire. The Parts Express wire will probably work just fine.


2) I use pegboard all the time. I don't run the wires under it however. A dab of silicone or epoxy on the four corners of the underside will allow you to use a single screw to mount the boards in the enclosure. Screw it down and the dabs in the corners will prevent it from moving.


3) I'm not sure that is exactly what Dave Ellis meant. There is a difference between sound deadening and dampening. I am pretty sure what he meant was that with a well-braced cabinet, deadening was not as critical (so products like Blackhole 5, with its sound deadening layer, are not necessary). Dave still uses the Walmart egg-crate mattress pad material, but only relies on it to dampen the back wave of the mid-woofer, not deaden the cabinet.


I have used that approach, Blackhole 5 and a combo of sound deadening material with open cell acoustic foam.


No doubt, blackhole 5 is the best. Sound deadening material plus open cell acoustic foam is a very close second (for far less money). And the egg-crate doesn't work all that bad either (in a well-braced cabinet).


4) You can't argue with that approach. I generally prefer higher end caps on the tweeter section, but I think Dennis's approach is pretty much right on the money.


- Jim


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Guys, I would like to poll those of you who have built speakers: I ask this because I used 12ga wire inside my sonosub and 16ga MonsterXP inside my Audax HT speaks.
> 
> 
> 2> I'm probably going to use pegboard as the base for my XOs and will run the wires through the holes and under the boards. Has anyone else used pegboard?
> *



I've used 14ga (oxygen free, but brand forgotten) and pegboard. I like the pegboard, as it allows you to either run the wires through the holes as you mentioned, or use zip ties to hold item down if needed. But without having to drill any hole to do either.


----------



## Griff

Well I made an expensive trip to Parts Express today. Bought all the parts for my center speaker crossover. I went with Solen caps, Mills resistors, and Erse inductors. Holy Crap Batman! That set me back a couple of bucks! I was working on the driver cutouts, when I had a senior moment. For those of you who are thinking of building your own speakers, listen closely!! DON'T MAKE THE CUTOUTS TOO DEEP!!! (Rant off) I added the thickness of the veneer to the dimension vs. subtracting it. And somehow the cutout for the tweeter ended up about 1/16" too big. So, I've already got the new blank cutout, but I was almost done!! Tomorrow I'll slow down a little and do it right! I'm embarrassed I made such rookie mistakes. Goes to show you're never as good as you think you are!


I went with the Acoustic foam from PE instead of mattress pad. Will it sound better? Hell, I don't know. Will the Acousta-Stuf work better than Dacron filling? Who knows? Not me, but I went with it anyway.


Well, tomorrow is recover from the screwup day. JL and others, what thickness did you allow for your veneer and glue when you cut your holes? I'm thinking of 1/16", but I think that might be a tad thick.


Hopefully tomorrow goes better.


Griff


----------



## jsalk

Griff -


When you say too big, do you mean too deep for the rebate or too wide in terms of diameter? If the rebate is too deep, that is not a big problem. You can easily add material and extra gasket material to compensate.


As for veneer thickness, it varies with the veneer. Generally, raw veneer is between 1/32" and 1/42". The backed variety comes in various thicknesses. Check with your vendor to see what you have. Glue should amount to nothing.


- Jim


----------



## Griff

Jim,


Yeah, the rebates for the woofs and mid were too deep. And I still haven't figured out how I made the dia of the tweet cutout too big. I'm getting ready to go back out and start over on the baffle. Got a new blank cut out last night. Just have to run the rabbet around the edges, and make the driver cutouts.


Thought about making plugs and re-doing the holes, but knowing the were screwed up would have driven me nuts! My wife says I'm way too picky!


Right now I've got the heater going in the garage. We woke up to a blanket of SNOW! Gawd, I'm not ready for this!!!


Griff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Speaking of PE, has anyone seen the new 15" Titanic MKIII Subwoofer? It looks like a real brute and sells for $198.66. It is definitely superior to my 15" DVC.

jeff


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Speaking of PE, has anyone seen the new 15" Titanic MKIII Subwoofer? It looks like a real brute and sells for $198.66. It is definitely superior to my 15" DVC.
> 
> jeff*



Yeah I seen it. If I was looking for a 15" driver. I don't know if I'd rather have that or the Stryke AV15 MKII, that's on sale for $165 right now. As they both look like either one could move some serious air. I also like both of the new subwoofer plate amps that PE is selling now.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Johnla,

Yes, the new plate amps are really nice. I'm waiting to see if the 500w ever goes on sale. It could find itself in my rack powering the cylindersub. I could then use the old 250w amp for my shakers. I don't even want to think about the 1000w amp. I guess you could use one of those and power two subwoofers?

jeff


----------



## cjd




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Johnla,
> 
> Yes, the new plate amps are really nice. I'm waiting to see if the 500w ever goes on sale. It could find itself in my rack powering the cylindersub. I could then use the old 250w amp for my shakers. I don't even want to think about the 1000w amp. I guess you could use one of those and power two subwoofers?
> 
> jeff*



1000W would match up to a nice four or even six driver IB setup. Which those MKIII's would work quite well in as well (they have their advantages over the Strykes, mostly on the warranty/service end)


but, at that point I'd be leaning more towards a nice rack-mount Crown or similar. For EQ duty, the Behringer Feedback Destroyer's 24 bands at $120 still takes the cake.


My current HT room would die with that much though - a simple pair of the Dayton IB drivers and 250W should be plenty (9x13 primary dimensions, with some additional volume worth about 13x6, 7.25 foot ceilings)


C


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *I don't even want to think about the 1000w amp. I guess you could use one of those and power two subwoofers?
> 
> jeff*



I did not want to think too much about the 1000 watt amp either......









So I just ordered the complete 15" subwoofer kit that includes it, along with the new 15" Titanic MKIII Subwoofer, and a pre-built 3 cu ft enclosure.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...D=167009&DID=7 


Considering the package price is about $60+ less than buying just the parts alone, and with the free shipping that they offered until 6:00pm today. So I just went for it......

Somehow I think this is gonna make my old 12" Atlantic Technology sub look like pure trash now.

The bad thing is, they don't plan to have the kits until around Dec 18th. So it's definitely gonna be a Xmas present to me, from me, it seems.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Johnla,

We'll all be interested in hearing how it turns out.

jeff


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Johnla,
> 
> We'll all be interested in hearing how it turns out.
> 
> jeff*



Jeff,


I just wonder if my neighbors will also feel that way, after I get it...











As good as my current 7 year old Atlantic Technology sub has served me over the years, this will be more than just a few steps up from it I'd guess. As the sub drivers never had the amount of xmat back then, that they do now. So I expect it will have a noticeable difference on such things as explosions over what my current sub can do.


And I figure if I ever have the needed room to do something like a sonotube in the far far future, that raiding the parts from this would work more than just quite well for it.


----------



## safaa

hi

thats a very good deal for this kit. enjoy it


----------



## Jeff Hovis

OK, I finally made my decision on the next speaker project for 2-channel. The winner is...MBOW1 3-way. I went from Ellis1801B to Criterion back to Ellis to MBOW1 3-way to Selah FXT and back to MBOW1 again. It's actually the most expensive of all the other choices. However, I can build it as the standard 2-way MBOW1 first and then come back and add the separate bass module. That gives me a little design leeway to do something creative with the cabinet. I'll also have to make a few mods to the XO if I build the bass section. That's another nice thing about Dennis' designs...he makes improvements or additions that existing owners can implement. Since I veneer the entire cabinet, I may try to design a nice little external XO cabinet. I may decide that I like it just the way it is and not even build the bass modules.


I read every review I could find and the MBOW1 was always a favorite. The Dennis Murphy design didn't hurt either. This speaker uses the M130 from GR-Research and the GREAT Hiquphon OW1 tweeter. I'm going to pay a little extra and get the OW1G (gold dome) just to add a tiny sparkle to it.


After this, I'm going to build a set of speakers for my oldest daughter to play in her room. The Parts Express Tech Talk section has a special gallery for displaying diy projects and there are some really nice designs using Dayton drivers that can be built for $200. I ordered all my XO parts and other misc items tonight and got free shipping. I'm going to start on the cabinets on Friday and should have them done over the weekend.

jeff


----------



## Ten 99

Cool. Please let us know how that turns out Jeff. I would love to hear about your thoughts on the MBOW1. I ordered parts to do a dB616TL set of towers for my Dad. Dave is working on a center channel also, using a TL design. I'll build it for Dad next. The only thing I'm waiting on are the 6.5" Dayton mids (shielded) so that I can start building them.


I've got a friend of my wife's who recently dropped about $3K on speakers at Ultimate Electronics and was really dissapointed. I talked to him a bit about looking into some internet direct speakers or building DIY. He now wants to do some DIY speakers, and returned the ones he bought at Ultimate. He doesn't mind spending upwards of 3K on everything (mains, center, surround, and sub) but wants to get as good of a deal as possible for that money.


I look foreward to helping him set it up and build it.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

For $3k, he should be able to build some serious speakers. Have you seen the Linkwitz Orions? Those could fit the bill and cost $3800. However, I'll bet for $1k, he could build something better than the ones for $3k that he returned. I'm looking forward to finishing the MBOW1s.

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ten 99_
> *Cool. Please let us know how that turns out Jeff. I would love to hear about your thoughts on the MBOW1. I ordered parts to do a dB616TL set of towers for my Dad. Dave is working on a center channel also, using a TL design. I'll build it for Dad next. The only thing I'm waiting on are the 6.5" Dayton mids (shielded) so that I can start building them.
> 
> 
> I've got a friend of my wife's who recently dropped about $3K on speakers at Ultimate Electronics and was really dissapointed. I talked to him a bit about looking into some internet direct speakers or building DIY. He now wants to do some DIY speakers, and returned the ones he bought at Ultimate. He doesn't mind spending upwards of 3K on everything (mains, center, surround, and sub) but wants to get as good of a deal as possible for that money.
> 
> 
> I look foreward to helping him set it up and build it.*


----------



## DLK




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *OK, I finally made my decision on the next speaker project for 2-channel. The winner is...MBOW1 3-way.*



This reinforces my own decision to go with this design for a front array. I intend to use 3-way for LF and RF and a 2-way for center. Front-array component cost is around $760 (2nd order crossovers), with crossover components from Madisound and Zalytron. LFE to be handled by a 2-driver 15" IB/manifold setup. I haven't decided on how to do the surrounds yet, but I may have to go with some in-wall units to gain sufficient SAF.


I find Dennis Murphy's approach to speaker design quite refreshing. I usually try to get too technical.


Enjoy the music (and/or soundtrack)


-Dan


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Dan,

Keep us updated on the 3-ways. How much do you calculate spending on the xo? I came up with over $300.

jeff


----------



## DLK

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
*Dan,

Keep us updated on the 3-ways. How much do you calculate spending on the xo? I came up with over $300.

jeff*
I did a quick spreadsheet in which I set up multiple columns for vendors (unzip attached file if you can read .xls files). By selecting cheapest prices for the correct (or closest to correct) value components, I came up with around $290. This cost avoids using any NP electrolytic caps. Zalytron is generally a little cheaper on the components, but they lack many of the correct value parts. I'll probably order the Hiquphon OW1 tweeters from them anyway ($90 a pop), so throwing in a few XO parts will probably not change the shipping costs that much.


Parts Express has free shipping this month on $99+ orders, so it's possible that you might be able to save a few bucks by dealing with them. They do carry the Peerless 850146 CSC-X LF unit that Dennis specifies for bass duty on the 3-way. I haven't figured shipping costs into the sheet, and since PE seemed a little higher on the parts I checked, I left them out of this sheet. I've enjoyed doing business with them in the past, and Darren K has really improved their loudspeaker marketing.


-Dan

 

mbows.zip 5.197265625k . file


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Yep, I bought all crossover parts from PE except the larger inductors. I bought them from Zalytron as well as the tweets. The Solen caps are all in range once you take into effect the 5% tolerance.

jeff


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Johnla,
> 
> We'll all be interested in hearing how it turns out.
> 
> jeff*




Woooo eeeeeee!...









It looks like Xmas will be 3 days early for me. As my new Parts Express 15", 1000 watt subwoofer kit is now officially on the way to me now. I got the delivery confirmation today....










"Sched. Delivery: Dec 22, 2003


Location: CHICAGO, IL, US"


In 2 boxes with a combined weight of 96 lbs, that free shipping ROCKS!


----------



## Wombat2

Previously in this thread in post #363 there was a link for a information for the Audax HT speakers. In that info there is reference to a more detailed plan file in pdf format. I have the appropriate pdf of the Front L/R and the surrounds but have missed the original detail pdf for the centre. Has anyone got that file they can post the link or send to me?


Thanks guys


David L


----------



## Johnla

If your French is good, there are some AUDAX plan PDF's to be found here. Including the one for the center channel.

http://www.e44.com/index.php?page=audax/index.html 


And click on the


"... et decouvrez la gamme de kits d'enceintes:

HiFi, Home-Cinema ..."

That is on the first page.


And then on the page it sends you to, click on the

"HOME 170 : Ensemble home-cinema aerogel par J.d'Apolitto"

to get the plans that you are looking for.

Then just click on the "Telecharger le plan" that's to the right of the picture of which one you want the plans for.


And another, that's not in a PDF format.

http://www.solen.ca/audctr.htm


----------



## pontiacgagt

Here you go

http://www.madisound.com/audaxcentercabinet.pdf 
http://www.madisound.com/audaxfrontcabinet.pdf 
http://www.madisound.com/audaxrearcabinet.pdf 
http://www.madisound.com/audaxsubcabinet.pdf 


-JD


----------



## Jeff Hovis

OK guys, I have a question about my new Hiquphon tweeters. They don't have the spade-type connectors on them...only small holes on the rear. Anyone ever work with this type of connection? Do I just solder wires into those holes or use some type of plug?


----------



## DLK




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *OK guys, I have a question about my new Hiquphon tweeters. They don't have the spade-type connectors on them...only small holes on the rear. Anyone ever work with this type of connection? Do I just solder wires into those holes or use some type of plug?*


 http://pip.dknet.dk/~hiquphon/page3.html#Terminals 


-Dan


----------



## jsalk

DLK -


I usually strip the wire about 3/4" and then fold the stripped portion in half. When inserted, this double thickness makes fairly firm contact with the terminals. Soldering is easy in that you will not have to hold the wires in place while you solder. You should have no problem doing this.


- Jim


----------



## Wombat2

Thanks for the links guys


David L


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Thanks Dan and Jim.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Anyone know where I can get material to make a 1.75id port? HD doesn't have PVC in that size. I need this for my MBOW1 project. If I add the bass modules, I can either plug them or replace the rear panels.

jeff


----------



## M NEWMAN

Did you check the irrigation supplies isle? I think they might have that size in that section. Also, the grey electrical conduit (the pvc kind) might be available in the electrical section in that size. Seems I've seen it there before....


----------



## Teran




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Anyone know where I can get material to make a 1.75id port? HD doesn't have PVC in that size. I need this for my MBOW1 project. If I add the bass modules, I can either plug them or replace the rear panels.
> 
> jeff*



Have you been following the posts on the MAD board? Ted Smith posted some pics of a finished MB01 that shows internal construction.


Edited to remove reference to port - I had a brain fart.


----------



## Teran

How about part number 260-321 at PE? It will be close enough, I think.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Anyone know where I can get material to make a 1.75id port? HD doesn't have PVC in that size. I need this for my MBOW1 project. If I add the bass modules, I can either plug them or replace the rear panels.
> 
> jeff*



Here you go, any size OR color that you may want. They are however acrylic tubing, and not PVC. Not that it should make any difference for a speaker port though. Unless there is a problem of over time that the acrylic tubing may do something bad like deteriorate in some way, and that PVC would not.

http://www.k-mac-plastics.net/acrylic-tubes.htm 

http://www.ridoutplastics.com/10to175tube.html


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Thanks guys. I missed that 1-7/8" port at PE. Also, thanks for the link to the other MBOW1 project on the Madisound board.

jeff


----------



## Matt Peacock

Some may remember that a while back I saved all the Audax DIY Home Theatre pages to disk and combined them into one document. I produced and posted a PDF of this file, a surprising number of people downloaded it. The original post is here;
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...06#post2444306 


There were however a few errors, some in the actual published plans themselves and some typographical errors transferred over from the site. These have now been corrected and I'm posting here a newer version of the PDF for download.


For those that are interested, I made a changelog to ensure I wouldn't forget to update parts;


> Quote:
> *Page 2:*
> 
> - Corrected "(See section VIII.)." To read "(See section VIII)."
> 
> - Corrected "requirements of 100 per channel" To read "requirements of 100W per channel"
> 
> *Page 3:*
> 
> - Corrected alignment of "Speaker Placement" header
> 
> - Corrected "flush mounting.)" to read "flush mounting)."
> 
> *Page 6:*
> 
> - Corrected "7.5"" on port interior baffle in diagram to read "8.0""
> 
> - Corrected "Top, bottom, sides and rear..." on same diagram to read "Top, bottom, one side and rear..."
> 
> - Corrected erroneous shorting wire in L/R Woofer Crossover Layout diagram
> 
> *Page 8:*
> 
> - Corrected polarities on Center Speaker Crossover Network Diagram
> 
> *Pages 1, 4, 5, 7 and 9 onwards:*
> 
> - No corrections
> 
> *Still to do:*
> 
> - Fractions STILL refuse to be rendered.
> 
> - Find correct font for diagram and replace "8".



It would be excellent if people familiar with the construction could run over the file in their own time and just check I haven't missed/misunderstood anything.

*Jeff*, your site with pictures of your speakers is down. Have you moved it, and is it possible to still get some construction pics?


I hope it's useful,

Matt


edit: File pulled due to last-minute error, will be re-posted in next few minutes.


----------



## Matt Peacock

File as promised.

 

audax diy home theatre.pdf 428.6982421875k . file


----------



## Johnla

Wow, when I ordered that PE 15" subwoofer kit, a 19 1/8" X 19 1/8" X 19 1/8" cabinet did not seem big to me. Well it sure dose now after seeing it in person. And the 15" Titanic MKIII subwoofer itself, is impressive both in looks and it's weight. (this sucker is heavy) The amp is on the hefty side as well, although I am surprised by the total lack of heat sinks of any kind for the amp. The cabinet however I think may be a bit on the "weak" side as far as bracing goes. As it only has one brace inside it, that's only about 2" wide and 3/4" thick. And the entire enclosure is made from 3/4" mdf. I was thinking about buying their 3 cu ft "knock down" sub enclosure, as it's made from 1" mdf and cross braced. But that would have cost more to buy everything separate that way, by almost $100 more than what the kit was. And then, I would still need to glue & screw, and finish it. So in that case I may just build my own from scratch out of 1" mdf and cross brace it. As I think even with doing that, it would be cheaper than buying the "knock down" and all the other parts. And yet I still will end up with the pre-built cabinet that I got with the subwoofer kit itself.


Anyway I hope to have it up and running by this Friday (as I need to do some "room adjustments" to make it physically fit in..). And then I'll report back how it sounds.


But for now I'll show a few pics, of the parts in the kit. As their online pics don't show that much, either for the kit itself, or even for the separate various parts that are used to make up the entire kit.


----------



## Johnla

Like I said the driver is kind of "beefy".....


----------



## Johnla

A front look at the driver.


----------



## Johnla

A front look at the enclosure. (you can kind of get a look at how much of a brace there is inside, and it's not that much)


----------



## Johnla

And a cabinet look though the "amp" cutout.


----------



## Johnla

And a somewhat closer look at the brace itself. (Now I will admit, there is not a lot of room inside for the brace to be much wider than it is. After you take into account the depth that the back of the subwoofer protrudes into the cabinet, and the depth of the amplifier also) But a "cross brace" setup over the single it has, would have been nice. And I may even try adding a cross brace, seeing how the cabinet is painted, and it may not be that hard to , add, screw, putty, and repaint that small area that it would require to add it in.


----------



## SVonhof

Johnla, I agree that you should either build something new, or see what you can do to add bracing. I would think they would at least have a brace going the other way, top-to-bottom as well. That would help quite a bit. Can you give me the kit number for reference? I wonder if there is a way to call them and order the kit minus this box and add on the other box kit? Would be nice if they could work that.


If I was doing this, I think I would scrap that box and build my own.


----------



## J. L.

Johnla,


I've seen other posts where stock bracing in subwoofers is improved by use of 3/4 inch hardwood dowels that are forced/glued between opposite surfaces in an enclosure. The dowels do not detract a lot of the internal volume, but add a lot of stiffness.


It seems that you have an enclosure already supplied with your kit. You could add a decent amount of hardwood dowel bracing from the inside, forcing them in place and using something like Gorilla glue to make the joints strong without having to use screws or other fasteners through the outer walls. (it swells up to fill cracks and voids) That way, no re-finishing of the cabinet is needed. Then, bolt the driver in place and judge if performance is satisfactory for your theater.


If yes... sit back, put on Jurassic Park, turn the volume up, and wait to see ripples in your guests drinks when the T-rex walks by on the screen.


If not, with a sheet of MDF and a weekend or two, and you will have an alternative enclosure. At that point, you can swap your driver and amp to their new home. In the interim, you can still enjoy a few movies.


Joe L.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SVonhof_
> *Can you give me the kit number for reference? I wonder if there is a way to call them and order the kit minus this box and add on the other box kit? Would be nice if they could work that.*



Yeah, the kit number is 300-764
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=300-764 

And yes, what would be nice. Is if they also offered it in a version with the "knock down" box kit 300-729, along with the option 300-731 15" baffle.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=300-729 
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=300-731 



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SVonhof_
> *
> 
> If I was doing this, I think I would scrap that box and build my own.*



Yes, I will either add more braces to the pre built one it came with. Or probably later on in the spring or summer make my own based upon the 300-729 knock down they sell. As I think it's a nice design, with the 1" mdf and sturdy cross bracing it has, but also somewhat overpriced for a knock down. If they would have had the option of taking the knock down, over the pre built for the same price I would have took that route. But when I priced it all separately, going with the knock down would have been almost $800. As you "lose" the advantage of the kits discount, and the knock down actually costs more to buy than the pre built & painted 3.0 cu ft box they now sell also (which is also the same one that came with the kit)


I do like the kits pricing, and the amp and 15" MKIII subwoofer. But I'm somewhat disappointed with the pre built box, but I think it's really going to need another brace added in. And I may even do as Joe mentioned, and add in by gluing in some 3/4" or 1" dowels or something, and then possibly "pinning" them in with my pneumatic brad nailer (as those would be easy to hide the brad nails with just a dab of ebony putty, and no need to paint over them). Before I even put it together this weekend now.


----------



## SVonhof

Well, let us know what you end up doing and what you think of the kit once it is done and working. BTW, do you have a sub currently that you can use as a base-line in the room?


----------



## safaa

hello

johnla

does mkIII fit in tempest enclosure specification. if so

here is link for box design.



http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/tempest_apps.htm 



BTW

the box i made for shiva 12`` adire specification which has 2 braces it really sound better than the box i bought$$$$ which is double sided and only 1 brace big one , i like sound from the box i made its very rich,


i finished the box , stained , light gloss in 3 hours next day was ready for action.



i would make another box, more sub







, or if you don`t want the box ebay is there if you want to sell it.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SVonhof_
> *Well, let us know what you end up doing and what you think of the kit once it is done and working. BTW, do you have a sub currently that you can use as a base-line in the room?*



Yeah I will. If the Xmas return lines are not to severe this Sat or Sun, I will see what my local Home Depot has in the line of 3/4" or 1" dowels. Or better yet maybe another section of 2" or 4" wide MDF, notched to connect with the factory brace. Because I really think it should have some sort of cross brace, to lock the other two side walls together. A "notched" brace of MDF, glued to the factory brace IMO would be the best way. But it may not be so easy to do in a already assembled box.

I'm just a bit upset that they did not add a cross brace when they make them. As it would be so easy for them to do, and it would add almost nothing to the cost of making it.


I do have a sub I've been using for about the last 8 years or so, a 12"

Atlantic Technology 262 PBM. (A 12" with 150 watts) But it won't be much of a competitor, to compare it to this 15" unit. And I'm sure this "Kit" sub will blow it away, even if I did not mod it by adding a brace or a stronger enclosure for it.


----------



## M NEWMAN

Hi Johnla,


In, my sub designs, I've used 3/4" dowel rods many times with good success. Certainly in that box design, the little bit of internal volume they'd take up will be insignificant. You shouldn't have any problem at all with this method - just a second opinion...

Say guys, in January, I'll be building a set of pretty cool inwalls (fully enclosed) for HT. I'll try to post some pics if you're interested.


----------



## enthusiast of ht

Does anybody have any opinions on the titanic diy subwoofer kits?


----------



## Matt Peacock




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by M NEWMAN_
> *
> 
> Say guys, in January, I'll be building a set of pretty cool inwalls (fully enclosed) for HT. I'll try to post some pics if you're interested.*



Yes Please










I ordered the drivers for the complete Audax HT System (14 in total) today, ouch









It made sense to order them in one go, the supplier gave discount for 5+ of the same driver, plus a £15 discount for the value of my order.


But still...ouch










Matt


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by enthusiast of ht_
> *Does anybody have any opinions on the titanic diy subwoofer kits?*



Yeah, I just bought one.

Look about 10 posts up, to see what I think so far, and for some pics of the parts it comes with.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by M NEWMAN_
> *In, my sub designs, I've used 3/4" dowel rods many times with good success. Certainly in that box design, the little bit of internal volume they'd take up will be insignificant. You shouldn't have any problem at all with this method - just a second opinion...*



Yeah, I'm thinking the dowel rod is what I will probably do. The loss of internal volume is not so much the issue, as much as not having anything I add hitting the driver or the amp is.


The only bad thing is.... If today was any indication, of holiday "returns" traffic. Then Saturday and Sunday will be even worse. So I may not get out to buy the dowels until Monday or Tuesday. As I HATE the traffic of the "returns and bargain hunters" after Christmas. And today I got a taste of that, on my way back from my physical therapy appointment this afternoon..


----------



## happy1127

After reading through the posts in this thread I was inspired to pursue my Shiva Subwoofer project that had stalled out. I finished it and right now its really growing on me. I'm providing a link to my webpage which details the construction.

Shiva Sub Project 


I would really appreciate feedback on both the sub and the webpage design as this is my first attempt at both.


Thanks,

Rob


----------



## J. L.

Rob,


Your sub looks great. I'll bet it sounds even better. As a DIY'er, I know that lots of sawdust was created in the construction of your enclosure.


Even more impressive is it appears from your pictures that most, if not all of your construction was done in your den/family/living room. You must have a very understanding SO. You have easily earned the respect of most of the DIY'ers following and contributing to this thread.


By experimenting on scraps of wood left over from construction you can get exactly the finish you want before doing the sub enclosure itself.


Oh yes, your web-site looks pretty decent too. Thanks for sharing the pictures.


Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof

Rob, as far as web site goes, the one comment I have only stems from the fact that I am on dial-up and have not become one of the converted yet. If you make the images smaller (the ones you get when you click on a small image) you can still get all the info, but take up less web space and bandwidth(yours and mine!).


----------



## Matt Peacock




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SVonhof_
> *Rob, as far as web site goes, the one comment I have only stems from the fact that I am on dial-up and have not become one of the converted yet. If you make the images smaller (the ones you get when you click on a small image) you can still get all the info, but take up less web space and bandwidth(yours and mine!).*



Agreed. I've got broadband at home, but then I spend about 90% of my time away. Try a program such as Image Optimizer from www.xat.com, which will resize your photos and also optimise them for the web (I think it may need registering, if so use versiontracker.com for a similar free tool).


Matt


----------



## happy1127

Thanks guys I'll get on that when I get home. That image optimzer looks good.


On another note - After about 4 hours the driver has really loosened up and the sound is sweeter. I am not a big believer in break-in but I think I can tell a difference.


Rob


----------



## Teran

I have to disagree about the pictures. 1024x768 @ 132K isn't a bad size for a "full-size" image.


----------



## J. L.

Although nowhere near as full featured as Image Optimizer, a program I have used quite a bit to resize images is "picturetray" You can get it from www.picturetray.com 


It is completely free, installs in its own folder, no uninstall is needed, since if you do not like it, you can simply delete its folder. It does not mess with DLLs or the system registry.


Basically, you can drag or load images on the left hand panel and it resizes them in a panel on the right. Then you can just drag them from there to post them or to include in e-mail. It can also allow you to rotate the images as it resizes them. You can even select all the images in a folder and let it resize them all. (It makes copies as it resizes and does not modify the original images in any way)


You may select the amount of compression. For the web, especially for posting to AVS, you can compress quite a bit before image quality drops.


Now, I have several other graphics and image editing programs, and all can resize an image, but none will do it as simply as picturetray. (And none of them can work in batch mode)


I attached one of your images I passed through picturetray. I have the jpeg compression quality set to 50. I chose a half size image reduction.


Your original image was 132k. The half size (512x384) compressed image is 16.1k. I know those with dial-up lines will like that much better.


I did try a compressed image, but leaving it full sized. It ended up being 51k. (1024x768 is too big to attach as an image on AVS, but sill better for those with a dial up and would work well on your web-page)


You will have to experiment with the compression quality to get a balance between size and image quality. I set it to 50 and left it there.


I have nothing to do with this program other than I have used it quite a bit. It is simple, and it works.


Joe L.


----------



## DOA

Question for DIY Speaker Builder.


This subject interests me very much. I love to tweak and build things and DIY speakers would be the next step in my Home theater adventure.


However, I like to start small and have no woodworking skills. I would like to start by tweaking my existing speakers crossovers.


I would to know what you experienced DIY'ers think about this.


1) Is it a good idea?

2) Will it make a difference?

3) Are the crossovers matched to the speakers at the factory and by changing the crossovers have an ill effect on them?


Thanks for your help.


----------



## safaa

hello


Joe L.thats is a nice program ,


i have more than a dozen programs$$$$ none of them does that size with this quality . its really very good thanks




i will start gathering all DIY speakers i have posted before to re attach them again, using this program















i was just kidding.


----------



## safaa




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DOA_
> *Question for DIY Speaker Builder.
> 
> 
> This subject interests me very much. I love to tweak and build things and DIY speakers would be the next step in my Home theater adventure.
> 
> 
> However, I like to start small and have no woodworking skills. I would like to start by tweaking my existing speakers crossovers.
> 
> 
> I would to know what you experienced DIY'ers think about this.
> 
> 
> 1) Is it a good idea?
> 
> 2) Will it make a difference?
> 
> 3) Are the crossovers matched to the speakers at the factory and by changing the crossovers have an ill effect on them?
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help.*



===============================

i `ll speak for my self


that how i started , i admired the DIY speakers , i looked around on the web, i read a few of them , then i decided to do it. i did not have any Carpenter exp before.

then i choose which driver will i use just as start so i went to PE i got a 2 way speakers to fit my jbl boxes old one.the drivers was good for jbl box .33 cu ft. so i ordered xover values. wow was that easy, sound good too.

then i went higher i looked for better high end speakers, i got seas i made the box with help from a friend he has tools, then i made sub .now i have tools i bought table saw, router , router bits,router table. tomorrow i`ll buy more tools

it just the fun of doing it, and the result is really great.

so tweak your old xover , i don't think it will work as you expect , i tried that the sound was never better .


get a new drivers 2 way to start with xover parts. and have little fun over weekend. you won`t loose much if you did not like it , but i`m sure you will learn something new.


----------



## elektratig

Hope you guys don't mind me jumping in.


I started speakerbuilding about 18 months ago in a similar way, by replacing an existing crossover that had worked itself loose. I had done some kit and diy audio electronics and saw that the crossover parts looked really cheap. So I got new parts -- better capacitors and inductors -- and remade the crossover.


My second project was a little more advanced and involved some research and woodworking. I had a friend give me an old pair of speakers, the cones of which were totally rotted out. After doing some research on the internet, I located a kit at pispeakers [I think as a newbie here I can't post the url, but just add a dotcom] designed for a similarly-sized box. I then cut a new front baffle from mdf (because the new drivers differed in size from the old ones) and glued the baffles on. They looked like h&*l, but they sounded great.


After that, I was hooked. I took a woodworking class, bought some tools and appropriated part of the garage.


One warning: speakerbuilding is extremely addictive!


----------



## DOA

I forgot to mention that I currently have Paradigm studio 80's.


Also by "tweaking" the crossover, I meant upgrading the small electronics with better stuff.


elektratig - did doing this help the sound on your first speakers?


Thanks


Lance


----------



## safaa

hi

upgrade xover with better quality with in same value yes you can do it.


speakers are addictive yes it is, every night i think about new set to build.


----------



## Ron_C

Hi all,

Sorry about jumping in the middle of the current topic. I am about ready to start construction of my Audux DIY speakers. Going to start with the rear/side surround speakers. I have seen a few people post how they made a DIY circle jig for their router. I would like to make my own, but how do you go about making one so it is accurate?? Any tips would be great.


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## JamesE

I was told one time that the trick to sub enclosures it to put one coat of fiberglass over the inside. It stiffens the enclosure.


----------



## Drew Eckhardt




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ron_C_
> *Hi all,
> 
> Sorry about jumping in the middle of the current topic. I am about ready to start construction of my Audux DIY speakers. Going to start with the rear/side surround speakers. I have seen a few people post how they made a DIY circle jig for their router. I would like to make my own, but how do you go about making one so it is accurate?? Any tips would be great.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ron*



You mark your router's base pattern on a piece of plywood, where the center of the bit will be, draw a bit diameter circle arround it, and then measure from the circle to where you want the centers making sure your ruler is touching the router bit center mark. Use 1/8" holes and 1/8" drill rod for the center of your circles.


Drill your holes, counter sink for the router mounting holes, and start routing....


----------



## M NEWMAN




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by safaa_
> *hi
> 
> upgrade xover with better quality with in same value yes you can do it.
> 
> 
> speakers are addictive yes it is, every night i think about new set to build.*



I know the feeling...


Say, do you subscribe to Audio Express ( formerly Speaker builder, Glass audio, and others)? If not, you should. If so, have you seen Bill Fitzmaurice's "Snail" series of horn spkrs? Too cool. Granted, they're not high end speakers, but for some seriously ass whippin', rompin stompin horns, these would be awsome to build. I especially like the dinky little 5" model he did an article on. Tiny little thing with over 125db max SPL! You'd need a truly serious sub to complement that little screamer. Good party speakers, eh?


----------



## happy1127

If anyone was interested in the developments in my Shiva subwoofer project I described on the last page I have an interesting update. (If you haven't seen it - in my initial post I inserted a link to my page detailing the construction)


Was just messing around moving the box around the living room and turned it into a corner. Holy cow. Night and day difference. My initial impressions were basically that it was a great unit that sounded just as good as my dual Hsu TN1225 setup. Well this thing just blew them out of the water - literally. Put on the U-571 depth charge scene and BAM! my couch shook for the first time I can remember. It makes me wonder if its that much better or my Hsu's aren't set up well. I thought I knew what good bass was and my perception just changed.


Anyways this lengthy fanboyish post basically is a testament to the excellence of the Shiva design and driver that I used as well as my baptism into DIY speakers. I highly reccommend this easy and rewarding project. Its really got me considering investing in some DIY L/Rs and a C just to see what I can do.


In response to a previous poster (J.L.) my S.O. did approve of me building in the house - err...well I voted for her since she's at her parents house for the holidays. Pretty much all she knows is I spent most of Saturday building a new coffee table. Think she'll notice?


----------



## safaa




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by M NEWMAN_
> *I know the feeling...
> 
> 
> Say, do you subscribe to Audio Express ( formerly Speaker builder, Glass audio, and others)? If not, you should. If so, have you seen Bill Fitzmaurice's "Snail" series of horn spkrs? Too cool. Granted, they're not high end speakers, but for some seriously ass whippin', rompin stompin horns, these would be awsome to build. I especially like the dinky little 5" model he did an article on. Tiny little thing with over 125db max SPL! You'd need a truly serious sub to complement that little screamer. Good party speakers, eh?*



no i have not but i will look it up, as of now


----------



## J. L.

happy1127,


I foresee only one problem when your S.O. returns home from her parents.


You will have to come up with an answer to the question:

"Why is the new coffee table you built in the corner of the room?"


Seriously, I had to move my Subwoofer out from the corner of the room. It is not that the bass was overpowering, but instead that it coupled so much energy to the adjacent walls that it literally rattled them even at low SPL. Even several feet from any walls it still pressurizes the room and can be felt as well as heard on low frequency passages.


Good luck with your new sub/coffee-table. It sure makes a difference when watching movies to have a good subwoofer in place. Make sure anything on the other side of the wall adjacent to the sub is securely fastened and bring on the depth charges.


Joe L.


----------



## JamesE

Johnla,


How does the parametric equalizer work with the 1000 watt plate amp? Are you happy with the sub?


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by JamesE_
> *I was told one time that the trick to sub enclosures it to put one coat of fiberglass over the inside. It stiffens the enclosure.*



Strange little addition to this thread! Out of no-where.

Speaking from my knowledge of speakers, stiffening and mechanical design background, adding fiberglass to the inside walls will stiffen the enclosure, but no more than adding the additional thickness into the wood itself and making the walls thicker. If you were to use fiberglass to strenghten the internal bracing and the joints to the rest of the enclosure, I could see that helping, but just adding it to the walls only I don't see a big benefit.


As for me, if I am going to build an enclosure, I will stay away from fiberglass, for two simple reasons 1) I don't know how to fiberglass and 2) It is messy and 3) I am already making a mess with wood, why not continue the sawdust?


----------



## JamesE

I was told this trick by a man that made all of his own speakers. His car has won several audio contests. Putting a coat of fiberglass on the inside of his cabinates was one of the tricks he used to win.


----------



## SVonhof

Things are different in cars, since sometimes, you make a panel to mount the speakers to, then fake the box in, to fit the contours of the car. Fiberglassing the inside of the box would then seal all gaps and air leaks from the resulting box.

Just my opinion, but a properly braced box doesn't need fiberglass. I may be wrong, but that is my opinion. I don't know that anyone has done any studies on this, has anyone else?


----------



## JamesE

He did the same thing in his home subs.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by JamesE_
> *Johnla,
> 
> 
> How does the parametric equalizer work with the 1000 watt plate amp? Are you happy with the sub?*



I have not assemble it yet, as I still have not added the bracing to the enclosure. So I can't tell you anything about how the amp or the speaker sounds yet. Maybe this weekend, after I go to a Menards to see if they have what I need. As my local Home Depot was out of 2' x 4' sheets of 3/4 MDF, and I did not want to buy a full 4' x 8' sheet. And I did not want them to "rip" one in half, as most times when they do that, you end up with a "un-square" piece. As they sometimes do not cut them very well that way.


----------



## DOA

About upgrading the electronics on a store bought speaker, I have heard that Manufactures like Paradigm match the Xovers to the drivers from the factory and upgrading the parts in the Xover may have an ill effect.


Does anyone believe this?


Sorry about the questions, I am just a newbie that wants to enter this world of DIY speakers and thought that upgrading the Xovers on my Paradigm studio 80's would be a good start.



Also were would I find more info on upgrading my Xovers.


Thanks


Lance


----------



## Matt Peacock




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Teran_
> *I have to disagree about the pictures. 1024x768 @ 132K isn't a bad size for a "full-size" image.*



I think people may have mis-interpreted Scott and myself.

What we were getting at what that the index page with all the pictures loads the full-size images. When you click on an image, it loads incredibly fast because it's already been dlwonloaded and in your cache. Unfortunately downloading a page of images takes time, assuming all the images are around 100K, that's over 1MB for the page Rob linked.

*Rob*,

As a suggestion, by all means leave the big images as big as they are, just also produce smaller "thumbnails" of them (perhaps using the program J.L. suggested), and use those on the main page. An example would then be;

Code:


Code:


[URL='myhost/images/picture1big.jpg'][/URL]

myhost/images/picture1big.jpg 
Code:


Code:


[IMG]myhost/images/picture1thumbnail.jpg[/IMG]

Where "picture1thumbnail.jpg" is a small image (say 100x80), clicking on it leads to the full-sized image (1024x768). Change the existing HTML and upload the thumbnails into the same directory as the main images, and you're done. (I've split the code into two simply to stop this page overflowing, the comments follow on _re1big.jpg">










Also, although the majority of the drivers have arrived my crossover components haven't yet. Is it dangerous to mount them, wire them directly into the amp and have a play?


Matt_


----------



## Jeff Hovis

MBOW1 first impression:

As I told Dennis Murphy today, I'm going to call these MB-O-WOW instead of MBOW1. I just have the drivers taped in and the port tube won't be inserted until I veneer the cabinets. The terminals aren't installed and the four wires are exiting through the hole for the port. My first impression was that's a lot of bass coming out of that little box. My wife was just walking by paying very little attention to what I was doing and said, "I like the sound of that horn". Then she said "those are really small"...I think I've heard her say something like that before;-)


Anyway, I give a BIG thumbs UP! I need to finish my stands and veneer everything before they are really finished.

jeff


----------



## George

guys I tried to read through this thread and determine if the current

project of interest was the MKIII subs.


I need to make a full 7.1 system of DIY speakers.

I plan to get them from parts express.


I need recommendations for the

fronts

center

surrounds and rear surrounds

and power Sub


my room is 14' by 23'

I have a pioneer elite 55avi

I have a rookie wood shop, so building MFD speaker boxes wont be

a problem for me.


I'm look to spend less than $1000 total on speakers and supporting electronics.


Would have started new post, but I think you guys are already

were I'm trying to get to.


HELP PLEASE????? ( private messages is cool)


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mzk4c3_
> *guys I tried to read through this thread and determine if the current
> 
> project of interest was the MKIII subs.
> 
> I need to make a full 7.1 system of DIY speakers.
> 
> I plan to get them from parts express.
> 
> I need recommendations for the
> 
> fronts
> 
> center
> 
> surrounds and rear surrounds
> 
> and power Sub
> 
> 
> I'm look to spend less than $1000 total on speakers and supporting electronics.
> 
> 
> Would have started new post, but I think you guys are already
> 
> were I'm trying to get to.
> 
> 
> HELP PLEASE????? ( private messages is cool)*



For the buget projects, with the smaller 5 1/4" mid/woofers look here.

http://home.hawaii.rr.com/sanaka/Aud...JZ/DJZone.html 


And for better L&R fronts, that use the Dayton 6 1/2" mid/woofers.

http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...ayton_iii.html 


Here is s center plan, but I would advise revising it and the crossover, to use the Dayton 1 1/8 silk dome tweeter, in order to better match the above L&R's.

http://www.ipee.com/DCC3/DaytonCC.html 


And for rears. To go with the above L&R's and center.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=300-640&DID=7 


As for a subwoofer, partexpress has much to chose from. For your room size a 10" or 12" should do fine. With the 12" being what most people would go with.

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....536&filter=kit 


For a list of all the partsexpress projects.

http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...homeaudio.html


----------



## Jeff Hovis

mzk4c3,

Also look at www.speakerbuilder.net It's currently down but Wayne is trying to get it back up and it should be any day. Wayne has a Dayton HT system there as well as several others that could be used. The Dayton Silk Tweeter is a beautiful tweeter. I have a set of Dayton 5.25" mid/woofs and the shielded silkies. I'm going to build Wayne's Dayton Budget 2-way for my office or master bedroom. The parts for those are under $110 if you use Dayton poly caps, Mills resistors and 18g inductors. You could also build one of Wayne's MTM designs. He has two on his site. Also, as John said, go to www.partsexpress.com and click on the techtalk section. Then go to the project pages. You'll see other high quality speakers. Some are inexpensive and some aren't.


If you have read this thread, you know that several of us have built and in the case of Matt Peacock, are still building the Audax HT system. I must say that I'm still VERY happy with mine and I love the way they look. Maybe, because I built them. A couple of us also built cylinder subs. I used a 15" Dayton DVC.


A 7.1 Audax system will cost $780 for parts from Madisound (including assembled xovers) and you'll need MDF, glue, veneer and misc hardware (figure at least $1k total). The subwoofer will cost around $500-$600. Dayton also has a new line of lower Xmax DVC subwoofers in 8", 10" & 12". The price is dirt cheap at $22.40, $27.25 or $38.75. The standard 12" DVC is $119, so you can see the difference in price. I just completed a sealed 1.6cf sub using the cheap 12" DVC with a 120w amp. I'm going to use it upstairs.


I have new links for my projects here:
http://europa70.tripod.com/index001.htm 


By now, you should know the rest...post your decision and the results here.


Good luck,

Jeff


----------



## Johnla

Jeff, I see you have a Lotus Europa. Back in the mid 70's I wanted one of those BAD! Never did get one though, as I was, and still am a early Mustang nut. And have a 1970 Mach1, that is still completely tore apart, waiting for me to put it all back together.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

John,

Yes, I do have a Europa. I used to race it but repairs are getting to be too costly due to the rarity of the parts. I still go to the vintage races at Rd Atlanta with the club, but only as a spectator. I had an Esprit, but I had to sell it to fund the Europa project (Gordini racing engine rebuild cost me a bundle).


One of my old college roomies back in the late 70s/early 80's had a white Mach 1 ( 351C with the shaker hood). I remember that thing being a brute. I don't know how he wound up with it, but he did sell it after we graduated and he needed cash. I'm sure a car like that is worth much more now. I remeber back in the early 70's before I could drive, I wanted a 246 Dino (Italian Horsey Car) and I always thought Europas were pretty cool. Now, I can't afford the 246, so the 'Ropa had to do.


----------



## Johnla

351 Mach1's (which is what I have also) are not worth a whole bunch, as everyone wants the 428 Cobra Jets. But as those go higher in price and harder to get, the 351's go up a little bit more. But even then, you are lucky if you can get 1/3 the price of a what Cobra Jet Mach1 goes for. But there was aways something about the looks of the Europa's that caught my eye in a good way, and the " for then" exotic drive train setup was another thing, that was a reason I wanted one. As back in the 70's a drive train like that was pure, road race car stuff.


As for Road Atlanta, yeah..... I know the place well, as I've raced there about 6 or 7 times in various motorcycle endurance races in the 80's. Both in AMA and WERRA events. And hitting the back straight there, while the front wheel wanted to be more off the ground, than on the ground was somewhat exciting, frightening and perplexing all at the same time. My home track however, was Road America, in Elkhart Lake Wisc. My favorite track though, was Brainerd Min.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Ahh, driving really fast and totally legal! There's nothing like going through a turn at 100MPH! As for Rd Atlanta, for me the scariest point is turn 12 going under the bridge into the downhill BLIND turn back to the front straight. VERY SCARY!


Have fun in the American Horsey,

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Johnla_
> *351 Mach1's (which is what I have also) are not worth a whole bunch, as everyone wants the 428 Cobra Jets. But as those go higher in price and harder to get, the 351's go up a little bit more. But even then, you are lucky if you can get 1/3 the price of a what Cobra Jet Mach1 goes for. But there was aways something about the looks of the Europa's that caught my eye in a good way, and the " for then" exotic drive train setup was another thing, that was a reason I wanted one. As back in the 70's a drive train like that was pure, road race car stuff.
> 
> 
> As for Road Atlanta, yeah..... I know the place well, as I've raced there about 6 or 7 times in various motorcycle endurance races in the 80's. Both in AMA and WERRA events. And hitting the back straight there, while the front wheel wanted to be more off the ground, than on the ground was somewhat exciting, frightening and perplexing all at the same time. My home track however, was Road America, in Elkhart Lake Wisc. My favorite track though, was Brainerd Min.*


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Oh, I almost forgot...all the car talk...anyway, here is a link to pics of my new MBOW1 project:
http://europa70.tripod.com/mbow1001.htm


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


Nice job on those MBOW1's! I just finished a pair for a University of Minnesota professor who is a classically-trained musician. He heard a pair I did for my daughter (a student) and just had to have a pair of his own.


He wanted curly maple with ebony front baffless. I told him I'd do him one better with some really nice fiddle-back maple, but the ebony would cost more than the speakers. We settled on book-matched claro walnut front baffles. The picture isn't the best, but here it is (by the way, it's winter here - the background photo is stock):











Projects underway include floor-standing 1801's in bird's eye maple, another pair of MBOW1's in striped mahogany or African cherry with African Bosse front baffles, a pair of Veracity's in redwood burl with curly redwood front baffles and a pair of Veracity's in cinamon burl with bosse front baffles.


Also, within the next week I will be shipping some prototypes of the new mid-price home theater design to Dennis Murphy for his magic touch. If all works out, I'll post some info in a month or so.


Later...


- Jim


----------



## Ron_C

Hi everyone,

I am about ready to start building the Audax surround speakers but have a question first. The plans have the speakers at a total depth of 9.25". Because of my columns in my theater, I need them to be not as deep. So my question is, is it safe to change the depth of the design, to say 7 inches, as long as I keep the internal volume the same. So say I increase the height to make up for the lost volume. Would this be ok and have any bad effects on the sound? Thanks for the help.


Ron


----------



## M NEWMAN




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ron_C_
> *Hi everyone,
> 
> I am about ready to start building the Audax surround speakers but have a question first. The plans have the speakers at a total depth of 9.25". Because of my columns in my theater, I need them to be not as deep. So my question is, is it safe to change the depth of the design, to say 7 inches, as long as I keep the internal volume the same. So say I increase the height to make up for the lost volume. Would this be ok and have any bad effects on the sound? Thanks for the help.
> 
> 
> Ron*



Hi Ron,


As long as any port in the enclosure that's mounted front to back doesn't encroach the opposing wall by more than it's diameter, you should be OK. (I don't know if your design has a vent or not - just a caution). Just use the calculation, L x W x H, divided by 1728 to get cu. ft. and make sure that you end up with the same internal volume.


Say Jim,

did you every find any of that Tulipwood I mentioned in the Zebrawood thread - I'd like to see one of your projects with that kind of baffle! Those speakers look great...


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jim,

Thanks for checking out my MBOW1s. Those you built are beautiful! I almost bought some fiddleback maple myself. I almost put a link to your site on mine, but I didn't because I figured I needed your approval and I thought it might just be used by diyers to steal your unique veneering style. For my next project, I may use different leftover veneers and try a combo like you do. I'm going to add some wipe-on satin poly to the MBOW1s by the weekend. I just prefer that look a little more.


Oh, BTW, winter is finally here too (for a little while)...17F here this morning and it won't get out of the 30s.

jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hi Ron,

I only built the front L/C/R Audax speakers. I do know that Joe L did a similar thing with his front speakers and made them a little taller. As Mike said, pay attention to the ports and also make sure that you don't take away so much depth that the port is too long;-)

Jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Just received a message that my site has exceeded it's bandwidth and is down for 2-hrs.

jeff


----------



## Matt Peacock

Ron,


As Jeff said J.L. did a very similar thing.

You have to look out for other things, such as baffle step, I'm told. There's quite a bit about it in this thread near the start but if you PM J.L. I'm sure he'll give you some pointers.


(I hope he doesn't mind me saying that!)


Matt


----------



## Ron_C

Thanks for the replies.


The surround Audax speakers are a sealed box design, so I have to port do deal with. So it looks if I keep the internal volume the same, I should be OK. Again thanks for the info and I will give it a go.


This will be my fist DIY speaker adventure, so wish me luck. The Front and center channels will be next, followed by a Tempest sub.


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## jsalk

Mike -


I've been looking for the tulipwood but have only found very narrow boards. Guess I might have to glue them up - perhaps with narrow strips of a contracting wood for accent purposes.


Ron -


Be careful not to widen the baffle significantly. The crossover baffle step compensation is designed for a specific baffle width. Widening it too much could result in too much compensation.


Jeff -

I think you made a good veneer choice. I have some of it and will use it soon. By the way, any links are welcome.


- Jim


----------



## Ron_C

Thanks jsalk,

What exactly is the baffle step? I plan on changing the depth from 9.25" to 7" and then increasing the height 3 or so inches(what ever that number comes out to be) to compensate for the invernal volume lost. Would this be too much?


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## jsalk

Ron -


I think you are on the right track with your approach. Changes in height will have less impact on baffle step than changes in width.


Baffle step is somewhat difficult to explain, but here goes:


Sound naturally tends to travel in all directions - especially at lower frequencies. If the baffle were infinitely large, when the sound waves circled back around they would come in contact with the baffle and be reflected forward. Thus, all of the sound energy would be contained in front of the speaker.


But when the baffle is narrow, sound can travel around the speaker. So some of it is not directed forward (unless reflected from the wall - more in a moment).


Unfortunately, this effect is not uniform with respect to frequency. With low frequencies, the distance traveled in one complete cycle is much greater than the distance high frequency sounds travel in one cycle (the speed of sound divided by the number of cycles per second).


So to risk over-simplification, in one cycle, bass sounds travel more than the distance from the driver to the cabinet edge. High frequency sounds do not. They hit the baffle surface as they move toward the cabinet edge and are reflected forward into the room.


Thus, at low frequencies, part of the sound energy is lost to the rear, whereas at high frequencies it is not. This difference can be as much as 6 db (quite audible) and must be compensated for (thus, baffle step compensation). Failure to do so will result in an emphasis on the high end and will result in thin, overly-bright sounding speakers with a lack of midrange and midbass.


As you can imagine, as the baffle becomes wider, the distance from the driver center to the cabinet edge increases and the point where the effect kicks in shifts to lower frequencies. That is why the crossover must be designed for, among other things, a specific front baffle width. It is also why you occassionally see some very esoteric, high-end designs that have extremely large front baffles and little depth.


This whole issue creates some interesting problems for home theater. For example, if you mount the speaker in the wall, you have effectively created a baffle of "infinite" size. So if the crossover was designed for a narrow baffle, the resulting sound will probably be "bottom heavy" when mounted in the wall (because the need for baffle step compensation is diminished).


It is also why speaker placement within the room is so critical. As you move the speaker closer to the wall (or corner), bass is enhanced as more engery is reflected forward. But get it too close and the sound becomes "boomy" and bottom heavy. A few inches either way can have a dramatic impact and the only way to know for certain that it is correct is to do some room measurements.


This whole issue is part of the home theater project I mentioned above. I am working on a series of speaker kits and pre-built speakers expressly for home theater. The crossovers will be designed so that the speakers are voiced properly when backed up to a wall or built into a wall. I can't say yet how successful the project will be, but I've selected what I think will be a good driver complement and Dennis Murphy will be designing the crossovers. So things look quite promising at this point. I'll post a report when Dennis has had a chance to play with the cabinets and drivers.


I hope that answered your questions.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey guys,

PE has the Audax drivers on sale right now. The Ap170ZO woofs are on sale for $22.04 vs $31.80 and the TM025F1 tweets are now $11.04 vs $15.20. I'm thinking of building the Audax rear speaks now and I calculate that the price of two is $98.70 and I can build a third for the rear for a grand total of $148.05. That's $21.53 less than Madisound and I'm using 18ga (Jantzen) instead of 19 or 20g inductors, Dayton Poly caps and Dayton non-inducrive resistors.


I also priced out the Vance D surrounds for somewhere around $140/pair.


Damn you all for getting me into this speaker building;-)

jeff


----------



## selmerakt

Wow, I was getting ready to buy the kit from Madisound (I got my center channel kit from them) but I'll have to check out PE first...


Does PE have all the necessary parts for the crossovers? how does the component quality compare to the crossover parts from Madisound?


Thanks!


(I have my Front Left/Right cabinents almost finished... just need to get the drivers, xovers and make it look nice!)


----------



## Jeff Hovis

If you get the standard xover from Madisound, it will be 18-20ga inductors, a mixture of Carli Mylar and Solen caps, Eagle resistors. BTW, I've seen quite a few complaints about Eagle resistors over on the Mad Board. My L/C/R speakers have Eagle in them and so far all is good.


At PE, you can get top quality components like Solen metallized polycaps, Dayton Metallized Poly-caps, Dayton Film and Foil poly-caps, Audiocap, Kimber Kap. They also sell Dayton 10Watt non-inductive resistors and Mills. For inductors, they have Jantzen and Erse. The stuff I'm ordering from PE will be Dayton poly-caps, Dayton resistors and Jantzen 18g inductors and a 16ga for the 1.5mH. If you want an iron core for the 1.5, they have them and if you reallywant to spend money, you can buy cross-coil copper foil inductors.

Hope this helps,

jeff


----------



## Kevin Golding

I've been following this thread for many months now, and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger. I keep waffling back and forth between the Audax, Adire, and GR Research systems. My receiver is an older Sony DB940, so the 4 ohm Adire 281s have almost been ruled out. The GR Research AV-3s are nice, but expensive.


I currently have Polks - RT35i in front, CS245i at center, and R10s in back. Would the Audax speakers give me a substantial improvement? My biggest complaint about the Polks is they sound a little 'thin' in the midrange, particularly the center.


----------



## Griff

Kevin,


I have the Audax center, and L/R speakers. I built the X-overs myself from parts from PE. I went with the best parts they offered, i.e., jensen inductors, Mills resistors, and Solen caps. This increased the cost a little, but not as much as I thought it would. This center is wonderful. The center is what made me pick this kit. At the time I chose this, it was one of the few that actually had the tweet/mid arranged vertically, which from what I read was imperative to a good sounding center. I have read that the Adire 281s are a little thin in the midrange. I think combining 8" woofs with a 1" tweet may be the culprit, but not having ever heard the Adire's this is a guess on my part. I can say that I am very happy with this kit. I finished the fronts last weekend, and they continue to sound better as time goes on. I don't know if this is the speakers breaking in, or me just getting used to the difference in sound from the speakers I was using. (Infinity SM series). I think the Audax offers the best bang for the buck. Eventually I am going to give these to a family member, and build a better kit (GR Research maybe) but right now we are loving these!


YMMV,


Griff


----------



## J. L.

Kevin,


I do not know how your Polk speakers sound, from doing a bit of reading on the web, your center channel seems to be very well respected for a mid-sized enclosure.


Unfortunately, unless you are near someone who has built an Audax HT set, it is difficult to make any side-by-side comparison.


If I would have to characterize its sound, it would simply be that they are "natural sounding." I currently have them crossed over at 80Hz to my subwoofer. Peoples voices sound natural. Sounds on screen I am familiar with sound right. (this is tough to quantify, example, when a phone rings on screen, it sounds like it is in the room and real.)


Prior to my completion of my Audax HT speakers, my wife would often ask that I turn on the sub-titles in order to better follow the dialog. (I was using a set of moderate quality ($100) Philips computer speakers, in stereo mode, at that time)


There was a vast difference in the ability to follow and understand the dialog when in the presence of background music and sound effects. My wife and I both immediately noticed this.


Now, the only time we turn on the sub-titles is when the dialog itself is "foreign" to us or otherwise hard to understand.

(We watched Lord-of-the-Rings last night, they have their own vocabulary... subtitles were on)


I did not undertake my DIY Audax series to get the lowest cost speakers possible, I did it to get decent sound at a reasonable cost. I needed a frequency response that would sound good even at wide viewing angles. Most horizontal MTM designs suffer greatly off axis. The Audax design addresses that design issue with the tweeter and midrange vertically aligned. At the time, many other designs downplayed the problem in their marketing specs.


If anything, the Audax Center channel probably compares well to commercial center channel speakers in the $1000 range with the full 5 speaker set (L/C/R/Rear) comparing to commercial sets selling somewhere near $3000.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Kevin,

One thing about the Audax center, it isn't thin in midrange. As a matter of fact, it isn't thin anywhere;-) It's in the small club of large, heavy speakers. If you build it, pay close attention to the sub enclosure that houses mid and tweeter. After I completed mine, I listened to a Meadowlark center channel that was over $1k. It wasn't side by side but that speaker didn't sound any better on a comparable amp. I've heard the GR-Rsch and they're nice, but definitely not better. The Adire I heard sounded a little muffled or bass heavy. It could have been the room. PE has a lot of Audax drivers on sale now. I just ordered the components to build three Audax rear speakers for $20 less than it would cost to buy two at Mad.


Now for a little inside info: I've just found out that Mr JL got a very high quality HK 7200. Everything is going to sound good!

jeff


----------



## Kevin Golding

Thanks to everyone for your responses. Since building a sonosub two years ago, I've been bitten by the DIY bug.







Especially with the sale at PE right now, I think I'll start with the Audax center channel and try it. I just have to figure out how to place it above the Tosh 65H83 - I know it won't hold the weight.


BTW, the sonosub is 318l tuned to 16.8Hz, with a 15" Tempest and 250W PE plate amp, tamed by a BFD to give about a 12db house curve from 20 to 100Hz. Watched Underworld tonight - some great bass.


----------



## SVonhof

Kevin, what did you think of Underworld? I have not seen it yet, but the director/co-writer graduated from my high school a year after me. I remember him walking in the hallway with his girlfriend one day saying how he wanted to work with Speilberg one day. He did that on ID4 and moved on. Very cool.


----------



## Kevin Golding

I really enjoyed Underworld - a fun, popcorn movie. My 18 year old son liked it, too. Had a kind of comic book feel to it, and Kate Beckinsale looked great in leather or rubber or whatever that was.







I read somewhere a sequel was already in the works.


Edit - it was IMDB where I read a prequel and a sequel had been planned. I also read there the director is engaged to Kate Beckinsale. Lucky guy.


----------



## SVonhof

Yeah, well, you should have seen his girlfriend in high school! She was a model and I would swear she was 6 foot tall! I would love to see how she turned out, just out of curiosity.


----------



## Ron_C

Hi everyone,

I have a question. With the current sale at partsexpress, I am thinking about making my own crossovers for the rear channels for the Audax 5.1 set. I was going to buy the part kit from Madisound, but since this is cheaper and better, I would like to try it out this way. I have soldered before, but never built a crossover. How hard is it to actually assemble a crossover? Also what type of board do you recommend mounting the parts to? As far as solder wire goes, what guage or watt rating do you recommend? Or does it not really matter.


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## Big Whip

Ron,


Like you, I had never assembled a crossover before. Turns out it's easier than you'd think. Just go to Radio Shack and pick up a project board. Looks kinda like a computer motherboard, but has hundreds of little holes in it. These holes are the perfect size for the wires coming off the crossover parts. Simply lay out the parts just like it's shown in the schematic, put the wires down through the holes, and solder the wires on the backside at the same place they are connected on the diagram. If I needed extra wire for anything, I used 16ga solid core wire. Goes together really fast. Hope this helps.


----------



## Ron_C

Thanks Big Whip! I think I will try this out myself. Would some be so kind to list the higher quality parts that I can get from partsexpress that are "better" than the Madisound parts, but at the same or cheaper price? How do you determine which components are better than others?? I guess I am still learning as I go here.


Thanks for the replies to my newbie questions.


Ron


EDIT: I think I have figured all the parts out from Jeff's posts above. Thanks to all the the great posts.


----------



## Johnla

I myself just use normal peg board from a place like Home Depot. Those project boards from Radio Shack are just too small and expensive for just something like mounting Xover parts, when peg board works just as well, if not better. A 2' x 4' piece of peg board will make a lot of Xovers, and cost about the same as 2 of the project boards from Radio Shack.


----------



## Ron_C

Hi,

I have one more question. Is the schematics at Madisound for the Audax speakers correct? I know some are incorrect, which ones are correct? Also what about that .pdf file that is a few pages back? It looks to have a inconsistency in between the center midrange schematic and the diagram. Can somebody set me straight and let me know which ones are accurate??


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ron_C_
> *Hi,
> 
> I have one more question. Is the schematics at Madisound for the Audax speakers correct? I know some are incorrect, which ones are correct? Also what about that .pdf file that is a few pages back? It looks to have a inconsistency in between the center midrange schematic and the diagram. Can somebody set me straight and let me know which ones are accurate??
> *



You can find the correct Audax plans and Xover specs here.

http://home.houston.rr.com/tomfowler...ner_series.htm


----------



## M NEWMAN




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Johnla_
> *I myself just use normal peg board from a place like Home Depot. Those project boards from Radio Shack are just too small and expensive for just something like mounting Xover parts, when peg board works just as well, if not better. A 2' x 4' piece of peg board will make a lot of Xovers, and cost about the same as 2 of the project boards from Radio Shack.*



That's what I like to use too....


----------



## Ron_C




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Johnla_
> *You can find the correct Audax plans and Xover specs here.
> 
> http://home.houston.rr.com/tomfowler...ner_series.htm *



Would you please look at the center channel mid driver crossover for me. To me it looks like the diagram and the schematic are different for the middle driver. In the schematic it shows L2 then C2, but in the diagram for the mid driver it is C2 then L2. Looks like they are different. Which one is correct??


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## J. L.

Ron,


It does not matter which way L2 and C2 are wired in that crossover since the two components are in series. (Every electron that passes through one of them must also pass through the other)


Personally, I would use the pictorial configuration since it results in L2 and L3 further away from each other. (less magnetic coupling)


Joe L.


----------



## Ron_C

J.L.,

Thanks for the clarification! As a newbie to this, the two diagrams were a little a confusing to me. But now I understand.


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## selmerakt

Here's a list of Crossover components that I'm getting ready to order from Parts Express. (for Audax Front Left/Right)


component - value - PE# - brand - price(ea) - comment


---------------------------------------------------------------

C1 - 8mfd - 027-564 - Solen - $3.91 - (8.2uF close enough to 8?)

C2a - 12mfd - 027-572 - Solen - $4.84 - (12uF+1uF, parallel=13uF)

C2b - 1mfd - 027-520 - Solen - $1.54 - (12uF+1uF, parallel=13uF)

C3 - 6.8mfd - 027-560 - Solen - $3.19

C4 - 15mfd - 027-576 - Solen - $5.45

C5 - 2mfd - 027-534 - Solen - $1.96

---------------------------------------------------------------

L1 - 1.8mH,0.43ohm,#14 - 255-688 - Jantzen - $16.88 - (cross-coil copper foil)

L2 - 0.15mH,0.17ohm,#16 - 255-606 - Jantzen - $6.72 - (cross-coil copper foil)

L3 - 0.27mH,0.24ohm,#14 - 255-662 - Jantzen - $9.36 - (cross-coil copper foil)

----------------------------------------------------------------

R1a - 8ohm, 10w - 005-8 - Mills - $3.50 - (8+10, series=18ohm)

R1b - 10ohm, 10w - 005-10 - Mills - $3.50 - (8+10, series=18ohm)

R2 - 10ohm, 25w - 005-30 - Mills - $3.50 - (30ohm,12w parallel(3)=10ohm,36W)

R3 - 10ohm, 25w - 005-30 - Mills - $3.50 - (30ohm,12w parallel(3)=10ohm,36W)

R4 - 05ohm, 10w - 005-5 - Mills - $3.50

R5 - 15ohm, 10w - 005-15 - Mills - $3.50

----------------------------------------------------------------


Now for a few questions:


1) Does this list look ok for my Audax Front Left/Right speaker Crossovers?


2) Did I add values correctly? (ie: wiring in parallel/series)


3) I don't really know anything about these components, and as such, I have no clue which ones will affect sound quality if upgraded/downgraded. ie: Would it make much of a difference to use all "Dayton" resistors instead of "Mills"? I'll spend the extra few $$ if it will help the sound, but at the same time, I don't want to waste $$ on something that doesn't matter...


Thanks again for your help everyone! without this thread, I would not have undertaken this project... I'm truly hooked!









After I finish the Front Left/Right speakers, I'm planning to make another pair for the rear to complete the set... (I already have the Center, but still need to build a sub)


-aaron


----------



## Matt Peacock

The best thing to upgrade on crossovers is the caps.


Matt


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Ron,

I used pegboard for my xovers. It makes a very neat xover board and you can attach the the components with hot glue or cable ties as I did. You can see mine for my current project here:
http://europa70.tripod.com/mbow1001.htm 



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ron_C_
> *Hi everyone,
> 
> I have a question. With the current sale at partsexpress, I am thinking about making my own crossovers for the rear channels for the Audax 5.1 set. I was going to buy the part kit from Madisound, but since this is cheaper and better, I would like to try it out this way. I have soldered before, but never built a crossover. How hard is it to actually assemble a crossover? Also what type of board do you recommend mounting the parts to? As far as solder wire goes, what guage or watt rating do you recommend? Or does it not really matter.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ron*


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Aaron,

I don't think it is necessary to use 14g copper foil inductors for those speakers. I think 15 or 16g air cores are plenty. That's what I used. In some of the speakers that I've built, I used iron cores for some of the large woofer values to keep resistance low. On the other hand, the xovers for these speakers aren't too complex and the additional cost for those foil inductors isn't that much.


I've used Solen and Dayton poly caps in all my projects and everthing has turned out very well. For resistors, I've used Mills, Dayton and Eagle.


I'm now starting on my 5th diy project since Dec, 2002 and I've gleaned a lot of xover info from www.diyaudio.com and especially the PE Tech Board. There are a lot of guys, Dennis Murphy included who wouldn't spend that kind of money on xovers for a $20 driver. However, those same guys will tell you that the xover is the most important part.

jeff


----------



## msieweke

Also note that the designer doesn't recommend going to larger-gauge inductors. Here's a quote from the .pdf file:


"In general you should avoid the urge to increase wire size for lower resistance. In most cases, the coil resistance is critical to controlling crossover Q. Lower resistance can lead to undesirable crossover response peaking."


----------



## George

O.K. I'm going with the Audax system.


Question #1. The spec speakers from PE look cheap to me. I'm I decieved by the picture? ( AP170Z TM025F1).


Question #2. Does anyone have a speaker upgrade suggestion for the Audax plans?



Questions #3. Who has the can't screw it up cross over parts list for PE and good photos for assembly.


Questions #4. The Audax PDF drawing doesn't show the woofers recessed. Yet most of your DIY projects show them recessed. Please explain.



Question #5 it doesn't seem that you guys are excited by the Audax Sub.

I'm I missing something.


Thanks




I can't wait to cut wood.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mzk4c3_
> *O.K. I'm going with the Audax system.
> 
> 
> Question #1. The spec speakers from PE look cheap to me. I'm I decieved by the picture? ( AP170Z TM025F1).
> 
> 
> Question #2. Does anyone have a speaker upgrade suggestion for the Audax plans?*



If you change the speakers from the ones listed in the plans, then the crossover design from the plans may not work for very well with them either. And then you would need to modify or maybe even design a new crossover to work with them. Same thing goes, if you were to radically change the enclosure size from the plans. Because it all goes together, from the drivers, the enclosure size and design, stuffing etc. As to how the crossover needs to be designed, to make it all work as one.


----------



## Griff

mck4c3,


I have recently built the center and L/R speakers. I was leery of using polyplasticwhatever framed drivers. When I went to PE to pick them up, I opened the boxes and was pleasantly surprised! These speakers are well built, and sound very good for drivers in this price range. With the sale going on now at PE, to me it's a no-brainer!


The reasons you see everyone recessing their drivers is probably my fault. I noticed when JL or Jeff Hovis (Can't remember which it was) were building their's, they hadn't recessed the drivers. You are correct in that the diagrams don't show them recessed, but the description says to recess ALL drivers. Some say you don't have to recess the tweets, but I did anyway. Can I hear the difference? I don't know, but I'm not sitting there wondering!


You have to approach building speakers as a system. Everything affects everything. If you change something, it will affect the entire system. That's not to say it's a bad thing, but you need to be aware of what those changes will do. If you look at Audax's web page(Somebody on this forum has archived them. Read farther back, Todd Peacock maybe) their values for the system are somewhat different than the specs Madisound shows on their web page. Will it make a difference? Again, I don't know.


I have a spreadsheet somewhere for the parts with PE part numbers. I'll have to look for it, I'm not sure where I put it. If you look back in this thread, I think someone posted it here.


I think for the money this system costs, you will not be disappointed.


Good Luck!!


Griff


----------



## George

hello.


Where can I get the detail drawings/designs for the Audax system?


I'm looking at the front L/R detail PDF and I think I see errors or questions.


Q1. Does the printed 12 3/4" outside depth take into account a 1" or 3/4" front panel? The drawing shows a 3/4" and only ref 1" thick front panel in section CC


Q2. Drawings show Mids surface mounted, but instructions indicates they need to be flush with front panel. Should I assume a 3/8" rabbit is required for a total diameter of 6 1/2"?


Q3. Do I need to build and install the cross overs prior to sealing up the box. Based on the cross over board recommended size, I don't think they

can be install after the box is glued or sealed.


Please help


----------



## Griff

OK- let's see. I hope the file shows up. If so, I'll finish my post.

 

audax ht.pdf 428.6982421875k . file


----------



## selmerakt

yup, the file attachment works...


----------



## Griff

Here's the parts list from Tom Fowler's site...


OK, I can't upload an Excel file, so here's the link to his page...

http://home.houston.rr.com/tomfowler/


----------



## Griff

Somewhere I have the detailed PDF files. I'll post as soon as I can find them. Meanwhile, here's a pic of my center. It's still in the testing-break-in phase. I am going to re-do the cabinet as I am not happy with it. Look at the pic and see if you can figure out why. It drives me nuts every time I look at it, but my family didn't see it until I told them, so maybe it's not so bad...


----------



## J. L.

Griff,


It is difficult to tell, is your enclosure still bare MDF? or is it finished?


If still bare MDF, then I personally think that the right hand side wall needs to be reinforced by an additional 3/4 inch layer of MDF. From my barely calibrated eyes, that should do two things: even things out a bit, and make the cabinet even more sturdy.


You could cut the side piece about 1/4 inch bigger than needed, glue it in place with it overlapping the current side, then use a roller bearing flush-trimming bit to get the newly added side panel even with the existing side panel. That is how I added the second 3/4 inch layer of MDF to the fronts of my cabinets.


Oh yes... if it makes you feel any better, it took me a bit of time to figure out what was bothering you about the cabinet.


Now.. the real question is... what does your family think of how it sounds???


Joe L.


----------



## jsalk

What do you do with pieces of leftover veneer and solid wood that are too small to use on a larger stand-mounted speaker?


Easy. You build another pair of MBOW1's.


Seriously, I just finished up a pair today using wood leftover from a Veracity project. And since many of you are building MBOW1's, I thought I'd share some pics.











The background is from another photo (it snowed for 2 days straight and the white just didn't do the speakers justice).











The veneer is fiddleback mahogany and the front baffles are quilted african bosse. It is always risky using woods that are close in terms of color and tone. But in this case, I think the risk paid off.


Later...


- Jim


----------



## George

I thought I saw something with the right mid, but it looked like something was off up/down.


I didn't see your issue tell J.L. hinted to it in his post.


You guys are blowing me away with your finishes on these projects.


Griff, please forgive me for asking, but that your issue occur, due to following the drawings?


----------



## jsalk

Griff -


If the speaker performs well, just add a little MDF to the right side of the cabinet and it will look fine.


- Jim


----------



## J. L.

mzk4c3,


A1. I think it assumes a 3/4 inch front. Many of us have made it thicker by using 1 inch MDF or two layers of 3/4 inch MDF glued together to make 1 1/2 inch thick MDF.


A2. Both Jeff Hovis and I had problems with the published dimensions for the rabbits for the drivers. (when we used a 1/2 inch roller bearing rabbiting bit it ended up too narrow to fit the flange of the driver ) I then made the inner cutout about 1/8th inch wider when I did my surround rear enclosures and they fit perfectly.

* Jeff had the same problem I did as described in this thread *


> Quote:
> From what I can see, the flange on the woofers measures just a bit under 6 7/8ths inches in diameter.
> 
> 
> If both Jeff and I accurately followed the PDF plans, then the hole we cut would have been 5 3/4 inches in diameter. Add 1 inch to that (1/2 in rabbet on two sides of the driver hole) and we get a rabbet about 6 3/4 inches diameter... and as we both found out, about 1/8th inch too small .
> 
> 
> So... for those following in our footsteps...
> 
> Jeff confirmed (the hard way) that the published hole sizes for the Audax HT woofers may be about 1/8 inch too small if you intend to flush mount the woofers by use of a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit.
> 
> 
> If you intend to use a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit in your router to cut the rabbet, and subsequently trim the veneer, then instead of cutting 5 3/4 inch diameter holes for the woofers, make them 5 7/8ths inch.
> 
> A great description of how to flush mount the drivers using a rabitting bit is at this link



A3. My crossovers all were able to fit through the driver cutouts in the front of the enclosures. (some were tight, but they fit.) In most cases, I mounted them and wired them prior to gluing on the final side of the enclosure to make it easier on myself, but they do fit through the driver cutouts.



Jim,

You do have a knack with enclosures... they are beautiful...


Joe L.


----------



## George

This site and all that read it should be given some type of tech acreidation.


somemany people are helped by it.


Before this, you were forced to live by the OEM's rules.


The internet has free so many DIYers.


You guys that step in and help others with good advice makes life so much more interesting.


Thanks to everyone with addressing my newbie questions.


Thanks again.


----------



## Griff

Yeah, I was off 1/2" on the right woof. And, unfortunately, no, I can't blame the drawings!!







I am going to rebuild the cabinet because it'll drive me crazy, and I want rabbet in the inner brace I made for it. I made the back wall of the midrange/tweet enclosure extend all the way to the sides. I made cutouts in the areas behind the woofs using forstner bit and jigsaw. Then I rounded it over with a 1/4" round-over bit. This time I want cut dadoes in the sides and top and bottom for this brace. Should stiffen things up immensely! I mean, Hell, MDF's cheap!! Now to figure out how to finish them. Don't Jim just make you sick with his finishes!!!










I'm thinking Santos Rosewood and Tung or Danish Oil. Any ideas? I know this has been beat to death, but I'd like to hear some suggestions...


Thanks to all for making this the most awesome thread about building speakers on the web to date!!!


Griff


----------



## J. L.

Griff,


Just a thought...


Once you build yourself a new cabinet for your center channel, you might just want to put your old enclosure up for sale. I'll bet you can recoup the cost of the MDF and then some.







With any luck, it will be someone local who buys it and shipping it to the buyer would not be too expensive.


It might drive you nuts, but the 1/2 inch difference won't change the acoustics much and with a front grill cloth, or placed behind someone's screen where it is not seen, the enclosure would make someone who is not into making sawdust very happy.


Joe L.


----------



## Rop

While comparing prices of components to build a set of Audax surround speakers I noticed that buying them as a kit (without enclosures) from Madisound is actually cheaper than buying them as parts (decent parts for the crossovers, but certainly not the most expensive) from PartsExpress, even with the current speaker specials at PartsExpress. Also, the Madisound kit comes with assembled crossovers (I could build them myselves, but it's less work).


I know a few of you build them from the Madisound kits. I'm wondering how you'd rate the crossover component quality. Are the values used accurate (some of the cap values can only be made accurately by combining caps)? Are they using cheap bipolar electrolytic caps or polypropylene ones for the larger values?


The PartsExpress special got me once again interested in the Audax speaker set. The center is a little too big for what I'd ideally want, but now I'm thinking that by building a new TV stand I could accommodate it. That got me looking around at other sources of the same...


-Rob-


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Griff_
> *I'm thinking Santos Rosewood and Tung or Danish Oil. Any ideas? I know this has been beat to death, but I'd like to hear some suggestions...
> *



After reading up a lot about various ways doing a finish on wood, about 20 years ago when I bought a pair of Klipsch LaScalas in the raw wood option. I decided to use Tung Oil, and I still prefer it whenever I want a oiled finish on a project.

In fact I even stripped, and re-did two of the doors in my house with the Formby's tung oil products.

http://www.formbys.com/products/tung_oil.cfm 


I myself like Tung Oil, because it's more than just a oiled finish. Also I really like the way it looks and feels when used with a nice grained wood, it just makes it *stand out* in a way that I truly like. And I like the above average protection that it offers the wood, and that it don't look like a coat "plastic" over the wood, like some polyurethane finishes can. As I hate that kind of look on a furniture piece, because I think it makes it look fake. Although some people seem to like that kind of look, I myself don't.




"The positives of tung oil include ease of application, ease of repair (when necessary) and overall durability. Minor scratches can usually be repaired simply by applying another coat of the finish, whether it's next month or next year. The major drawback is its lack of grain filling ability. Unless you're working on a very smooth and grain free wood such as maple, you're not going to get a smooth finish with tung oil. If, however, you like the 'feel' of the wood and don't mind having the texture of grain showing, tung oil may be just what you're looking for.


Tung oils are usually applied in a wipe-on wipe-off method with a short drying time in between. After the wipe off and the coat has dried completely, 0000 steel wool is used to remove surface irregularities, and the process is repeated. Depending on the look you're trying to achieve, you'll apply anywhere from 3 to 6 coats in this manner.


Tung oil is more durable than lacquer and is impervious to water stains. As mentioned before, minor scratches are easily repaired. It's readily available and an ideal finish for butch block tops in kitchens, as well as wooden salad bowls and other wooden food preparation surfaces. Furniture in areas of high use (or abuse) could also benefit from a tung oil finish."

http://doityourself.com/woodfinish/wftungoil.htm 


"TUNG OIL VERSUS OTHER FINISHES


In recent years, those who appreciate the warm richness of beautiful wood have begun to realize what the ancient Chinese knew; when turned into a finishing product, Tung Oil is the finest natural wood finish in existence and has yet to be duplicated synthetically!


Man's ingenuity has created many synthetic finishes, including lacquer, shellac, and varnish all of which protect wood with a hard impervious layer. But these surface finishes prevent the development of patina, the lovely depth and tone that only natural aging can produce. Eventually synthetic finishes will break down and discolor, when that happens the entire surface must be removed by labor intensive stripping and sanding before another coat is applied.


Penetrating finishes formulated with linseed, soy or paraffin oils actually go into the wood and enhance its natural beauty, but these oils often dry incompletely and fail to form a hard and durable surface. Furthermore, they develop a gummy build-up when additional coats are applied. Linseed oil, the most commonly used penetrating finish, darkens and changes color with time and finally disintegrates.


A Polymerized Tung Oil finish is hard yet flexible, waterproof and impervious to alcohol and many food acids. Polymerized Tung oil as a penetrating oil allows wood to continue its aging process and to develop its patina. The wood's rich color and grain are enhanced by the natural ambering (coloring) of Polymerized Tung oil over time. Any sign of wear disappears when a thin "maintenance" coat of oil is rubbed in. The maintenance coats, rather than cause a build-up, actually improve the patina as they protect and preserve the wood. A floor, a piece of furniture, or any other wood object finished and maintained with Polymerized Tung Oil will never have to be stripped again. The finish will become more beautiful with time.


POLYMERIZATION AND FORMULATION


As Tung Oil dries and cures, the molecules join together in a tight complex formation. This process is the secret to Tung Oil's effectiveness as a finish. The cross linking of the oil's molecules makes the surface waterproof and impervious to many chemicals. The bonding also gives flexibility to the surface, making it capable of withstanding wear and tear"

http://www.sutherlandwelles.com/tungoil.htm


----------



## smithsonga

I love the appearance of some of the speakers listed in this thread and others...most are by jsalk with the darker baffles and lighter boxes.


Is the baffle done with MDF and veneered (assuming so given the exotic woods.....but...) or is it solid stock with large roundover? If veneered, is there a trick to getting a good surface over the roundovers? Also, is it doubled up on an initial front baffle (that is flush with side walls) or is it the only front?


Also, I noticed on Jsalks' the baffle doesnt seem to be flush with the side wall....looks like a small reveal which is nice....am I seeing it right?


Lastly, the MDF boxes...are you guys using biscuits for strength and alignment or just gluing line to line? It seems a biscuit joint or small rabbit would make it easier and a more accurate/flush box.


Thanks

Jim


----------



## jsalk

Jim -


I can only comment on my cabinets.


For the most part, the pics I posted are of speakers with solid wood front baffles. It is difficult, if not impossible, to successfully veneer with round-overs on all four sides. If I veneer over round-overs, it is only on the sides, not the top and bottom.


For tips on veneering roundovers, see the novice tutorial on that subject at www.audioDIYcentral.com. It is pretty good.


You are correct in seeing a reveal. I use strips of 3/4" of the same or contrasting wood on the front edges of the sides, top and bottom panels before I veneer. The inner front baffle is recessed 1/4".


After veneering, I chamfer the front edges with a 45-degree bit to reveal the underlying hardwood strips. The front baffles are 3/8" smaller and undercut slightly less than 1/4" about 1/4" inch around the entire perimeter of the sold wood front baffle. Thus, it sets in the pocket.


The reason I undercut it less than 1/4" is so that is does not actually touch. I then use an adhesive that is somewhat resilient. This allows the solid wood baffle to expand and contract (which it does to a greater extent than the underlying MDF) without cracking.


I hope I made that clear.


As for biscuits, I use them. But not for strength as they are not needed (the MDF will break before the glue bond). Although they may also add strength, they are primarily for alignment purposes and work very well in that regard. While other techniques work well, biscuits allow for some slight adjustment while gluing up. Some other techniques do not.


- Jim


----------



## smithsonga

Jim

Great post. I understand almost all...regarding the strips...you mean 3/4" wide (as is the MDF)? and just a thin 1/4" or less strip? Actually if it was 1/4" then you could make the inner baffle flush and just add these strips to make the pocket for the front baffle....?


The 'floating' front baffle is very good idea....what is a good resilient glue?


Your post answered my question on inner vs. outer front baffle....most designs I see do not have this...do you just add the front baffle thus not changing the inner volume so it makes no diffference? It doesnt affect the drivers/sound in anyway to be 'encased' with MDF/Wood?


Thanks for the help! You make some gorgeous speakers.


Jim


----------



## Griff

Smithsonga,


I make my cabs with 3/8" rabbets all the way around. This makes alignment very easy. I think I have a pic of this. If so, I will try to post it.


J.L. Guess I never thought someone would be interested in prebuilt cabs. The only problem is I believe I will have to destroy the cabinet to get the crossovers out of it. They are mounted behind the brace that runs side to side, and I "Goop'd" them down and installed a screw before completely closing up the cabinet. If I can save them, I might throw them on E-bay or Audiogon and see if anyone bites...



Griff


----------



## jsalk

Jim -


I'll try and answer your questions.


No, the strips are 3/4" x 3/4". When you chamfer it, you cut back the edge more then 1/4" and would expose MDF.


Another advantage of this system is that the reveal allows you to be off 1/32nd of an inch or so in length or width on the front baffle and it will still work.


I'm sure there are many adhesives out there, but I use Liquid Nails. They have a version for flooring that is designed to be somewhat compliant.


The internal volume stays the same. This would be like making a font baffle that is (roughly) 1 1/4" thick by combining 3/4" and 1/2" MDF. Only in this case, the outside baffle is solid wood instead. The drivers are mounted in the solid wood baffle just as they would be if it were MDF.


One other note about solid wood. Do no assume it is dry and don't use it unless it is. If the wood is not fully cured, I will crack and warp. You can count on it.


Make sure to test it for moisture content to make sure it is ready for use. If you don't have a moisture meter, any cabinet maker will have one and could easily test it for you. And it wouldn't hurt to let it acclimate to your environment a few weeks before using it.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Nope, not me and I'm positive that Joe also recessed his. My woofers were recessed from day one. The tweeters aren't and that is because my plans say not to. AS JL says, make sure you adjust the driver hole is adjusted before you cut the rabbets.

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Griff_
> *mck4c3,
> 
> The reasons you see everyone recessing their drivers is probably my fault. I noticed when JL or Jeff Hovis (Can't remember which it was) were building their's, they hadn't recessed the drivers. Griff*


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jim,

Again, another beautiful project.

Jeff


----------



## J. L.

mck4c3,

The only woofers I did not flush mount were those in the center channel speaker. It was my first DIY speaker enclosure, and I was simply following the plans...


When building the L/R channel enclosures a much more experienced builder (jmiyake) described to me why flush mounting the drivers was preferable. The whole flush mount discussion resulted from a question posed by Griff. This learning experience (for me) was much earlier in this thread (starting around post #99). I did not flush-mount any of the tweeters. I suppose that couldn't hurt, but because the flange is so thin, and the designer of the speakers did not feel it necessary, neither have most of the builders.


Griff,

All my crossovers were screwed to the side of my enclosures and I can remove them through the driver openings if service or modifications are ever needed.

I used rubber grommets between the boards and the wall of the enclosure to space them and keep them from rattling. I purposely did not mount them in a way where I would have to destroy the enclosure to get them out. Hopefully you do not need to destroy your center channel enclosure to salvage the crossovers.


----------



## smithsonga

Thanks Jim. Appreciate it. You must attach those strips really well considering the front inner baffle would be attached mainly to them.


I will certainly ask more questions as I get busy.


Thanks!

Jim


----------



## Griff

I'm headed to Home Depot to pick up some pieces of MDF to rebuild the center cabinet. I was thinking of doubling up all the walls, top, bottom, etc. to stiffen the cabinet, but I'm already getting a small amount of bowing from the top of my TV. I'm afraid any more weight would be the straw that broke the TV's top!!


I thought about putting the center on a stand, but Dennis Erskine, a guy who designs Theater rooms, says it is best to have the center either centered on the screen (RPTV, can't do that) or on top angled down toward the listening area. I am using a piece of the foam to raise the rear and have it pointed down, but the wife isn't exactly thrilled with it. I hope when I dye/paint the center black, it won't be so visually noticeable.


When we get settled in a new house, I will be able to deal with it better, either by enclosing the whole TV and building a shelf for the center, or building some kind of brace/shelf for the center. Eventually the goal is a FPTV, but that may be a while..


Thanx All!!


Griff


----------



## George

Getting ready to oder parts form PE

for the Audax system's Center/ Front L/R


What do you recommend for the wires which runs between cross overs(MTM) and the drivers.


Also how to attach wires to drivers. Do they have those little post.

If so should I get the crimp on clips or just solder wires to drivers?


----------



## George

There has been alot of talk about the cross over components at PE vs. madisond.


I think someone made a recommendation to go with the PE components.


But somewhere else someone was recommending better caps.


Will someone who knows please post a clean post with what to oder from

PE for the Audax Center / Fronts / Rears.


Thanks guys, sorry I'm not getting this stuff.


----------



## jsalk

Jim (smithsonga) -


Just a quick note: The front baffle does is not glued to the 3/4" strips at all. It merely rides on top of them. The adhesive is appplied to the MDF and creates a cushion between it and the front baffle. Also, the screws used to mount the drivers go through the front baffle and into the MDF.


In that way, the front baffle can expand (showing less of the reveal) and contract (showing more of the reveal) wihout being tightly glued to the underlying MDF.


I hope this makes sense.


Griff -


I wouldn't bother doubling up the MDF, especially if weight is a concern. A couple of internal braces is all that you should need for a speaker of that size. PE sells some sound dampening material you can apply to the inside of the cabinet (before your acoustic foam) if you'd like to deaden it even more. That is plenty sufficient. Or, if you really want to do it up right, use Blackhole 5. It isn't a subwoofer, so 1 1/2" of MDF for the walls would be gross overkill.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Here's one for ya: a couple of days ago, a guy on the PE Tech Forum asked about increasing the woofs to 8". Can you imagine how BIG that center channel would be?



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Griff_
> *I'm headed to Home Depot to pick up some pieces of MDF to rebuild the center cabinet. I was thinking of doubling up all the walls, top, bottom, etc. to stiffen the cabinet, but I'm already getting a small amount of bowing from the top of my TV. I'm afraid any more weight would be the straw that broke the TV's top!!
> 
> 
> I thought about putting the center on a stand, but Dennis Erskine, a guy who designs Theater rooms, says it is best to have the center either centered on the screen (RPTV, can't do that) or on top angled down toward the listening area. I am using a piece of the foam to raise the rear and have it pointed down, but the wife isn't exactly thrilled with it. I hope when I dye/paint the center black, it won't be so visually noticeable.
> 
> 
> When we get settled in a new house, I will be able to deal with it better, either by enclosing the whole TV and building a shelf for the center, or building some kind of brace/shelf for the center. Eventually the goal is a FPTV, but that may be a while..
> 
> 
> Thanx All!!
> 
> 
> Griff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hmm, mine is on a stand under the screen. I really don't have any other place to put mine because the screen (80-in wide DaLite) doesn't leave enough room above. I have wondered if the angle I built into my stand is a little extreme. I may go back and angle it down a little. I could be shooting some of the sound right over our heads. See it at this link:
http://europa70.tripod.com/audax_center010.htm 

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Griff_
> *
> 
> I thought about putting the center on a stand, but Dennis Erskine, a guy who designs Theater rooms, says it is best to have the center either centered on the screen (RPTV, can't do that) or on top angled down toward the listening area.
> 
> Thanx All!!
> 
> 
> Griff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


----------



## Randybes

I recently purchased a pair of Jim's Veracity speakers and have posted my impressions in the speaker section. Anyone that is interested can read it here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=354139


----------



## smithsonga

Jim (jsalk)


I understand the front baffle isnt attached to the hardwood strips, but what about the inner MDF baffle? If it is only inset 1/4" and the front 3/4" of the MDF cabinet is the hardwood strips (If I understand this correctly), then 1/2" of the 3/4" MDF inner baffle thickness is surrounded by the hardwood strips? Correct?


Your hardwood baffle is 3/4" thick and approx 1/2" on the sides in order to sit in the pocket? or......


Sorry for the questions, as an engineer I like to picture it complete.










Whew-

Jim


----------



## Rop




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mzk4c3_
> *There has been alot of talk about the cross over components at PE vs. madisond.
> 
> 
> I think someone made a recommendation to go with the PE components.
> 
> 
> But somewhere else someone was recommending better caps.
> 
> 
> Will someone who knows please post a clean post with what to oder from
> 
> PE for the Audax Center / Fronts / Rears.
> 
> 
> Thanks guys, sorry I'm not getting this stuff.*



You can find a list of parts, including PE item numbers, at this link . Someone else posted this before, so with thanks to that person.


I added up total cost for the center - fronts - backs when buying them as parts from PE, including the current Audax speaker discounts, and concluded it's simply cheaper to order the kits from Madisound. Also, the Madisound kits come with pre-assembled crossovers.


My question, as well as yours if I understand your post correctly, is how one would rate the quality of the parts in the Madisound crossovers. I know a few people have built those kits, hopefully one of them cares to comment.


-Rob-


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Griff_
> *I'm headed to Home Depot to pick up some pieces of MDF to rebuild the center cabinet. I was thinking of doubling up all the walls, top, bottom, etc. to stiffen the cabinet, but I'm already getting a small amount of bowing from the top of my TV. I'm afraid any more weight would be the straw that broke the TV's top!!*



You may want to consider making something like a 1" riser/shelf or whatever you would like to call it. That spans the entire width of the top of the TV, but only contacts the TV by the near edges by the 1/2" or 1" tall "feet" it would have. And then put the speaker on top of that. That way most of the weight then would be put on the side walls of the TV which should be able to handle it much better than just the top of the TV, and probably would eliminate the bowing of the top of the TV that you have now.


----------



## jsalk

Jim -


Your first statement appears to be correct.


The 3/4" stips are glued to the sides, top and bottom panels. I then use biscuits to attach these to the front (rear and braces as well) baffle, inset 1/4".


The front solid wood baffles are 5/8", undercut slightly less than 1/4 in the rear side (only around the edges to clear the 3/4" strips. That leaves slightly more than 3/8" of the solid wood baffle exposed. The back side of this baffle, with the exception of the area around the edges that was undercut, almost touches the inner MDF baffle. The adhesive fills this space creating a bond that is strong but resilient. It also de-couples the baffle slightly which aids in damping front panel vibrations and partially preventing them from being transmitted to the rest of the cabinet.


Also, keep in mind that the screws used to mount the drivers go through the front solid wood baffles into the MDF, providing additional holding power.


- Jim


These glue joints are stronger than the surrnounding MDF. So if you are asking in terms of strength, there is not problem.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys, I posted some pics of the MBOW1s and their stands. I just completed them yesterday.
http://europa70.tripod.com/mbow1012.htm


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


All I can say is wow... they are beautiful. This DIY stuff is addictive, isn't it? Good thing you took pictures as you constructed them... otherwise, nobody would ever believe they are homemade.


Keep this up and your family will support you on just about any project you can dream up.


Joe L.


----------



## jsalk

Nice job jeff! You should be real proud. And I bet they sound great too!


- Jim


----------



## moonhawk

Nice looking work, Jeff


Hope they sound as good as they look!


As soon as I have time to figure out how to upload pics from my new digital camera, I'll post some shots of my still unfinished Northcreek projects...


----------



## George

Oh my goodness.


You talk about miss reading post.


I just ordered the parts for the Audax fronts from PE and the bill

was $270.


I thought the fronts only cost $140 to make. Guess I miss read a post somewhere and the cost was about $140 each not for a pair.


Man I hope the final project will be worth it.


I do have a good news story.


I had a Madisound Swan 302 12" woofer and a PE 100 amp for nearly two years. I guess I got lazy an put both items in an old speaker box.

I reinforced it and added some foam, plus a small vent. All of which was no where near the specs required.


I've been happy. BUT, last weekend I decide to build a (120 L )b ox per the specs. Also I wanted to practice building a speaker box prior to the Audax front speaker project.


All the while I was building, all I thought about was, is all this effort really worth it? I bet I'll do all this work and have very little improvements.


I completed the project and fired it up on Monday. Put some music in, and just as I thought, no big deal, I just blew a weekend for nothing.


Next I put Star Wars THX-Ex in the DVD and forwarded to the 1st explosion.


OH MY GOODNESS.


That sub monster awoke. From atleast 10 feet away, this thing was blowing air across my theater and made the clothes I had on jump.


I can't believe how much air this thing can move.


Total project cost maybe $200 bucks spread across two years.


So assuming a final price tag of $300 for the audax fronts, I can only wonder, what new sounds a wait me.


I can't wait to introduce my monster to my wife


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Joe, Jim and moonhawk,

Thanks for the kind words. They sound very, very good and I'm really pleased. My wife loves them and I'm proud of the way they turned out. I can't imagine how the 1801b or the Veracity would sound. They must be amazing.

jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

You may have seen my post that mentioned $148. However, I was quoting the price for three surrounds. The price I paid for two was less than a pair would have cost at regular price from Madisound. Two fronts for $270 is still a good price. You really need to add the center to them to get the full effect.

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mzk4c3_
> *Oh my goodness.
> 
> 
> You talk about miss reading post.
> 
> 
> I just ordered the parts for the Audax fronts from PE and the bill
> 
> was $270.
> 
> 
> I thought the fronts only cost $140 to make. Guess I miss read a post somewhere and the cost was about $140 each not for a pair.
> 
> 
> Man I hope the final project will be worth it.
> 
> 
> I do have a good news story.
> 
> 
> I had a Madisound Swan 302 12" woofer and a PE 100 amp for nearly two years. I guess I got lazy an put both items in an old speaker box.
> 
> I reinforced it and added some foam, plus a small vent. All of which was no where near the specs required.
> 
> 
> I've been happy. BUT, last weekend I decide to build a (120 L )b ox per the specs. Also I wanted to practice building a speaker box prior to the Audax front speaker project.
> 
> 
> All the while I was building, all I thought about was, is all this effort really worth it? I bet I'll do all this work and have very little improvements.
> 
> 
> I completed the project and fired it up on Monday. Put some music in, and just as I thought, no big deal, I just blew a weekend for nothing.
> 
> 
> Next I put Star Wars THX-Ex in the DVD and forwarded to the 1st explosion.
> 
> 
> OH MY GOODNESS.
> 
> 
> That sub monster awoke. From atleast 10 feet away, this thing was blowing air across my theater and made the clothes I had on jump.
> 
> 
> I can't believe how much air this thing can move.
> 
> 
> Total project cost maybe $200 bucks spread across two years.
> 
> 
> So assuming a final price tag of $300 for the audax fronts, I can only wonder, what new sounds a wait me.
> 
> 
> I can't wait to introduce my monster to my wife
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


----------



## safaa

i thought i should try my new table saw. so i made this stand from butcher block i used to have


----------



## Johnla

For anyone looking to buy router bits. www.woodbits.com now takes orders online. And they have some very good prices! I just ordered a 1/4" spiral upcut, a 1/4" spiral downcut, both are full carbide bits in 1/4" shanks. ($12 each) And also a 3/4" carbide round-over ($20) and a 7/8" carbide round-over ($26), both in 1/2" shanks. And the total was $70, which considering the size of the two round-over bits, is a great price. And the total shipping, was under $4 for all of them.


----------



## SVonhof

Sounds good Johnla. Thansk for the tip.


----------



## happy1127

OT -


Safaa - where did you get that glassed-door cabinet that houses your components? I've been looking for something like that.


Thanks

Robert


----------



## safaa

hi

i got it from wallmart $89


----------



## Jay Wilson

I know in these 36" pages of thread, someone provided the formula to enter the TS parameters of a sub to determine exactly what size to make a sono sub. I have the drivers, I have the TS specs, and I have a tube. I just need to know what to do with the tube.










I scanned briefly, but I figured it easier to ask whoever posted it, to please repost the link again.


Thanks!


----------



## Johnla

I don't know if any of this is the sonotube info you are looking for or not.

http://www.quux.net/roo/diy/sonosub/sonocalc.html 

http://terryctheater.tripod.com/shiv...um/page12.html


----------



## Jay Wilson

Thanks Johnla,

I think it is partial. The 1st link appears to be after you have determined the size of the tube. What I _think_ I am looking for is something to input the speaker parameters and then it would tell me what size the sonotube would need to be (volume wise) so that I can figure out how long to cut it.


I will check out the links from your second link and see if it is in there somewhere.


Thanks again!


----------



## Kevin Golding

Jay,

What driver are you going to use in your sub? If it's an Adire, then download LspCAD from their webpage. It's a free version that has all of the Adire drivers' info already plugged in. If it's a different brand, then try WinISD . There are many others, but these two are free.


To determine the size of the enclosure, you'll have to play with the different parameters in one of these programs to see the predicted response. Or, the maker of your driver probably has suggested configurations which will give you the volume (and port info, if applicable). Then use Johnla's first link to get tube length.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jay,

Here is an assortment of subwoofer links:
http://www.quux.net/roo/diy/sonosub/sonocalc.html 
http://www.diysubwoofers.org/ 
http://members.tripod.com/~terrycthe...um/page12.html 
http://www.quux.net/roo/diy/sonosub/design.html 

Hope this helps,

Jeff


----------



## Jay Wilson

I'm using a driver from a Polk Audio sub that I don't have room for the cabinet. I'm going to build hopefully smaller sono-subs to compliment my L/R speakers. I am then (probably) going to replace the shared amp with 2 mono plate amps. They're really just to give some more bottom end to the front sound stage, while keeping my dedicated LFE sub separate.


I should be able to use the calcs to determine optimum volume, and then I can figure out how and where these will fit.


Thanks for all the links!


----------



## Jay Wilson

OK, I've plotted all box types in Winisd...











The vented is bright green, the yellow is sealed. Just so I would get an understanding, the other 2 (blue & purple although hard to tell) are 4th and 6th order bandpass. Am I to assume based on the graph that vented would be the best for this driver?


Obviously (I think anyway) teh bandpass configurations are out.


----------



## Jay Wilson

Here it is with just the vented and closed. The vented is the one with the really quick rise and the slight hump where it starts. The closed is the one that rises smoothly, then levels out.


----------



## SVonhof

That doesn't look like a bad hump to get past for the vented design. Are the size caculations for that something you can deal with? Remember to remove the amount of space port will take up when you calculate the size of the box.


BTW, did you measure the TS parameters on your own, or are you going off some published info, since this driver was taken from an existing sub?


----------



## Kevin Golding

What Polk driver is it? That's a really nice response - flat to about 18Hz.


----------



## Jay Wilson

Scott,

It's am MW1081 out of a PSW350. I have 2 of them. The T-S parameters were provided by Polk. The tube calculation said it had to 13'3" long! I definately can't live with that, so I am sure I did something wrong. Would one of you guys that knows more about this drop the figures in and tell me if I'm doing this correctly?


The T-S are:


Fs=30 Hz

Re=3.4 Ohm

Qms= 3.84

Qes= 0.78

Qts= 0.65

Vas= 60.2 L

Mms= 85 gm

Cms= 325x10 ^(-6) m/N

Bl= 8.3 T-m

SPLref= 85.1dB

Sd= 363 sq cm


the tube I have is 12" diameter. When I plugged everything in, and let it calculate optimum box size, it said 290l! Would someone double check me...please!?!


----------



## M NEWMAN




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jay Wilson_
> *Scott,
> 
> It's am MW1081 out of a PSW350. I have 2 of them. The T-S parameters were provided by Polk. The tube calculation said it had to 13'3" long! I definately can't live with that, so I am sure I did something wrong. Would one of you guys that knows more about this drop the figures in and tell me if I'm doing this correctly?
> 
> *



Hi Jay,


No, 13 ft isn't gonna work anywhere. What diameter vent did you spec? Also, the sealed response looks really good. That woofer is probably better suited to closed boxes, since you're getting such an erratic vent length. Also, with regard to BP's, it's most likely that this driver would only be good for a 4th order bandpass, and WINISD does not produce optimum alignments on bandpass designs. You need to play with values. 4th order BP's have a pretty good phase and group delay characteristics, but 6th orders basically suck in this category. They're mostly good for really efficient production of bass - you need electronics to get that alignment back in phase with your highs.

Punching those parameters into my program, I came up with a much better response for a vented enclosure at an 8 cu. ft. box with a 20 hz tuning. Using a 4" diameter vent at 7.5" long will tune it to this. It gives a nice little 1 db bump in the response from about 32 Hz to around 65 Hz (the meat of the bass pass band). punch these values into your WINISD and take a look. I think you'll like it. Understand though, that vented enclosures, while great for efficient bass, do sacrifice a little on group delay on the bottom end of their response.


----------



## Jay Wilson

Thanks Mike. I've never done a home sub before...I've built plenty for cars, but a little different situation...you can amp the hell out of it and no one would know







At least 15 years ago when I was in high school that's what was important!


Realize that this will be a sonotube design sub...How easy is it going to be to do a 4th order BP with a tube? I'm OK at carpentry, but I feel that for my 1st project, the sonosub would be a good start.


Also, when I used WinISD, I thought it was only 6th order that it had a problem with? I'm sure that I didn't input something right...converting from metric to inches and back. I'm also at a loss as to what some of the values mean. So I admit I was playing a bit of a guessing game.


I simply input the port values that WINISD gave me...I belive it was a 10cm diameter, by 17cm long port.


Thanks for the help once again!


BTW, I'm thinking of a double stack of 8 inchers...you know I'll be needing your expertise with the mount on that one!


----------



## M NEWMAN

Jay, if you go into WINISD and click right on those little dimension indicators (like cm, or l) you can change them to something you're more familiar with (like in., or cu. ft.). Every time you click on them, they change to a different measurement type. Scroll through (keep clicking on them) to see all the choices. That should help you around WINISD a little better.


----------



## Jay Wilson

Thanks for the tips Mike. I did as you said, and was able to change the type of values as you said. Is there a page or something that can define for me what I should be looking for to be optimal? I punched your port and volume values into the sonotube calculator and it still came back with a 10' long tube, when using a 12" diameter. The 12" diameter would work best for where I want to do this, and consequently, when I input an 18" tube, it came in at less than 5'. As for length, this is where I need to be.


Now, I happen to have a piece of 12" approximately 5' long. When I input these values into WinISD, it is not as smooth a slope on the low end, but it flattens out at slightly a lower frequency. Here's a picutre:











This is with a 3.8 cubic foot tube (which is what the 12" x 5' works out to be)



Then I plotted it using a ported tube of the same size.











What is this telling me?


----------



## M NEWMAN

Oh, now I see what you're doing wrong. You're confusing the port dimension calculations with enclosure volume calculations. Even though you're using a sonotube for your "box" you still need to calculate this volume in the box section. The port dimensions are just that - a vent in the sonotube enclosure. Make sense now? The volume formula for a cylinder is V=BH, or V=PI r(squared) H, where PI=3.1416, H=height of cylinder, r=radius of base, V=volume. Consequently, if you go vented, then you'd have the woofer on bottom (for ex.) and port on top, exhausting towards ceiling. The port dimensions in the program tell you what size that pipe needs to be to acheive calculated tuning. That's where we get the port size I mentioned above. Additionally, use the formula above to take that 9 cu.ft. volume I used to calculate what size your sonotube needs to be cut to get that much internal volume. Hope that clears the air.


----------



## Jay Wilson

Good thought Mike, but no. I understand where I plug in the different dimensions, what I don't really undestand is how the 2 different graphs affect the sound. Your 8 cu ft box (ported) looks very similar to a 3.23 cu ft box (ported).


What I did, was try to look at the 2 graphs, and I don't know what the minor differences mean (in WINISD). You gave me the volume of your box, so I took the box volume, and port sizes, and input them into one of the earlier links that determine length of the tube. I input 8 cu ft, with a diameter of 12, and accounted for the port volume, and it came back with 10+' in length. This all makes sense based on others using 16 and 18" diameters and theire tubes being in the 5-6' length.


Then I figured out the volume of what my 5' x 12" piece would net, so I could see a graph of it, for comparision. I input the diameter, allowed for the port, and decreased the volume until it netted a 5' long tube. I then put these values into WINISD to compare.


The only reason I am trying to compare is to grasp an understanding of what this means. I had the 12" x 5' tube, so I have a frame of reference as to what this will be size wise. I just don't get what the 2 different graphs are telling me, since they look so similar. Is there some other info I can gain from the graph?


My screen wall ceiling is only 7.5' tall, and the area below the screen is cabinetry. On either side of the screen are surtains, set out from the back wall about 14-16". I'd like to lay the sonosubs on their sides (with proper "feet" to hold them) and behind the curtains. I could come out with the curtains a bit, but would rather not.


Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I'm trying to read and learn as I go, I will build it with your 8 cu ft box and port size, I just want to understand why that is better.


Thanks again for your help Mike! And of course everyone else in this thread!


----------



## TDizzie

maybe the drivers you have aren't made for that type of enclosure or something. I was looking to build a ported sonosub a while back, and found that the Adire DPL12 produced a really good-looking graph. When comparing the TS parameters of the Polk driver you have and the DPL12 , they are pretty dissimilar. Maybe you should try using both of your drivers in one enclosure. Not sure what that will do to the response curve, but hey, two is better than one, right? Anyway, here are a couple web sites that use both two drivers and sonotube so you wouldn't have to waste anything:

Steve's Compounded, Super-Duper Shiva/Sonotube T-line Subwoofers 

Transmission Line Subwoofer Project 


or even this:

The DefTech / Shiva Page


----------



## George

Hey guys


many of you have completed the Audax diy project.


I've just started. I have a cross over question.


What do you run between the elements ( i.e. c1...R1....L1..)


Can I use single stands form old 12-2 romex house wire??

What type of wire did you use to run from the cross over to each speaker?

Did you guys just use 12 g speaker wire or some type of special shielder wire since its in the enclosure.


Most post don't show any detials about the cross over construction, only the finished cross over. If I had pics of both sides of your cross overs, it would really help.


Thanks


----------



## jsalk

mzk4c3 -


I like 14 guage silver-coated OFC (oxygen-free copper) with teflon insulation. But you can just as easily get yourself a spool of 12 or 14 guage OFC (oxygen-free copper) speaker wire and live with it quite nicely. It does a pretty good job and doesn't cost a fortune. If you really want to go cheap, rgular 14 guage zipcord (lampcord) will work as well.


- Jim


----------



## George

Hey guys I also got a 8.2 Cap instead of the 8mFd as called for in the Audax project.


I assume that 8.2 falls within +/- 10% of a 8mFd so it should be fine.


Should I change and run a 10 and 1 mFd in par instead???? for C1


----------



## Teran

14-16 guage wire is fine.


----------



## M NEWMAN




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jay Wilson_
> *Good thought Mike, but no. I understand where I plug in the different dimensions, what I don't really undestand is how the 2 different graphs affect the sound. Your 8 cu ft box (ported) looks very similar to a 3.23 cu ft box (ported).
> 
> 
> The only reason I am trying to compare is to grasp an understanding of what this means. I had the 12" x 5' tube, so I have a frame of reference as to what this will be size wise. I just don't get what the 2 different graphs are telling me, since they look so similar. Is there some other info I can gain from the graph?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again for your help Mike! And of course everyone else in this thread!*



Hmmmm.....I'm still trying to figure out where you're coming up with some #'s. Let's go this way....You said you want to keep this sonotube down to 12" x 60". Assuming for now that those are INTERNAL dimensions, that would yield an enclosure size of 3.9 cu. ft. of available air volume. Now, plugging that # into the volume of box section in WINISD, you can now play with different tuning frequencies and port dimensions to see if you can:

A) get a reasonably flat response with little ripple.

B) Get a Port size that will work.


When I plug those #'s in, I get the best compromise at a tuning of about 25 Hz, which yields a 3db hump in the response from about 50 Hz to about 35 Hz. Not exactly bad, but not flat either. Most people like a little more strength in the bottom end anyway, except for those situations where room re-inforcement really pronounces the effect. The port for this size box would be 4" diameter, 9 5/8" long (inside dimensions). Does that help clarify?


----------



## Jay Wilson

Thanks again Mike. Now that you gave me the info, I can plug it in, see the graph, and understand _what_ I am seeing. In WINISD I can't change the port length (at least I can't figure out how), but it came back with 10.69...is that allowing for the thickness of the end plate possibly?


After pluggin that in, I see graphically teh 3db hump, etc. etc...thanks for the clarification. I guess in teh end I answered my own question, that I am looking for a flat a line as possible, and as smooth a line as possible.


Yeah, its getting clearer!


----------



## M NEWMAN




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jay Wilson_
> *Thanks again Mike. Now that you gave me the info, I can plug it in, see the graph, and understand what I am seeing. In WINISD I can't change the port length (at least I can't figure out how), but it came back with 10.69...is that allowing for the thickness of the end plate possibly?
> 
> 
> After pluggin that in, I see graphically teh 3db hump, etc. etc...thanks for the clarification. I guess in teh end I answered my own question, that I am looking for a flat a line as possible, and as smooth a line as possible.
> 
> 
> Yeah, its getting clearer!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Hi Jay, all ya gotta do to play with port sizes is click on the # and highlight it, then type in the diameter pipe, for example, you'd like to use. You could try a 3" diameter pipe, which would compute you a shorter length, or an even larger diameter one which would result in a significantly longer pipe. The bottom line here is that the smaller diameter, the more potential turbulance you'll have that might be audible under high volume circumstances. 3" would be absolute minimum for that driver. I picked a 4" diameter vent to keep turbulance to a minimum (inaudable), since you clearly have the depth in the enclosure to accomodate it. Also, in the alignment I showed you, you'll still have a rolloff in response in the deep 20's - still pretty robust for a sub. If you wanted to, you could switch to an Isobaric design. This would enable you to get that super flat and deep response curve in the (around) 9 cu. ft., in only 3.9 cu.ft. This is because the VAS parameter get's cut to 1/2 of one driver. This parameter is the one mostly responsible for how much volume a particular driver will need for a given response. When you cut it in half of a single driver, your box volume requirements drop dramatically. You get the added benefit of a sub that tends to cancel all odd-ordered non-linearities, resulting in a lower distortion figure. Me likes Isobariks - do 'em all the time. The only time Isobariks are not a good idea is in sealed boxes or 4th order bandpasses that will be run hard. Isobariks require identical drivers to work properly, but when one driver is situated in an enclosed volume of air and run fairly hard, that air continues to heat up, which of course, changes the mechanical and electrical properties of that driver. Meanwhile the other one is staying relatively constant as it's exposed to cooling air. The net effect is a deteriorating response when driven hard. Vented enclosures, obviously, alleviate this problem. To try an Isobarik just start a new project and select 2 woofers, then check the Isobarik box. Have fun.


----------



## M NEWMAN

I just punched in your woofs at 3.9 cu. ft. and 21 Hz tuning and wound up with a beautiful response rolling off at 18 Hz. That's pretty nice. Side note: this software automatically assumes a series wiring connection on Isobariks, so the SPL graph is really weak. If the amp you'll be hooking these up to will handle a 4 ohm load, then wire 'em parallel (with the one back facing into the room in reverse phase from the one in the box, assuming a face to face mounting configuration) for an equal efficiency to one driver. That'll keep you from running a 16 ohm load and needing mountains of power to get these things moving, due to what would be pretty high resistance.


----------



## Jay Wilson

Thanks Mike. I do happen to have 2 drivers, but was intending to use one of front left and one on front right. I could do an Isobaric with them...hmmm.


I cannot change port length no matter what. I had tried right clicking, etc, etc...it is greyed out completely. No big deal. I'm going to trust you on the length. I can change port diameter, but not length. Oh well...no biggie.


Thanks for taking the time to help me understand.


----------



## M NEWMAN




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jay Wilson_
> *Thanks Mike. I do happen to have 2 drivers, but was intending to use one of front left and one on front right. I could do an Isobaric with them...hmmm.
> 
> 
> I cannot change port length no matter what. I had tried right clicking, etc, etc...it is greyed out completely. No big deal. I'm going to trust you on the length. I can change port diameter, but not length. Oh well...no biggie.
> 
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to help me understand.*



That's right, you can't do it directly. The port length is calculated for you depending on the following 2 factors:

1) The port diameter you selected and how many ports you're using.

2) The tuning frequency you picked back over on the box tab. You wouldn't really want to be able to adjust all 3 parameters 'cause there'd be no reference and it would make designing this box very difficult. By limiting you to 2 different changes, you then have a "control" variable. Try changing the port diameter - you'll see the length change accordingly. Same with the tuning frequency under the box tab.


----------



## SVonhof

Jay, I used isobarik in my main tower speakers, but the woofers only go down to about 36 hz in a sealed box, so I also have subs and ended up telling my receiver that the speakers are small, so they don't bottom out.


----------



## George

Hey guys I got a 8.2 cap for C1 in the Audax HT DIY project.


The part list calls for two 4 mfd and one .01 mfd to be run in parallel to make 8mfd.


I'm assuming all three caps are required because they are in the part list.


My question to those who know.


Can or should I go with the 8.2mfd I have or should I run the three caps in parellel to get the 8mfd.


I can't tell how 2X4mfd + 0.1mfd ran in parellel gets 8mfd??????


----------



## cjd




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mzk4c3_
> *Hey guys I got a 8.2 cap for C1 in the Audax HT DIY project.
> 
> 
> The part list calls for two 4 mfd and one .01 mfd to be run in parallel to make 8mfd.
> 
> 
> I'm assuming all three caps are required because they are in the part list.
> 
> 
> My question to those who know.
> 
> 
> Can or should I go with the 8.2mfd I have or should I run the three caps in parellel to get the 8mfd.
> 
> 
> I can't tell how 2X4mfd + 0.1mfd ran in parellel gets 8mfd??????*



.


I'm betting the 0.1 is a bypass cap of a higher quality than the 4's.


An 8.2 should be close enough, regardless. Whether you can even hear the difference is up in the air (some people can, perhaps). Same goes for using a higher quality bypass - some people can hear the difference, some can't. Depends on what kind of caps were spec'd for any of the parts, anyhow.


Parallel wire caps and you sum the values.


C


----------



## George

I got these Solen Caps from Partsexpress and i can't tell any polarity on the cap itself.


Does this mean they are non-directional???


I think the Audax DIY project is nice, bu I don't think anyone covers the cross over well enough for a novice to make them correctly.


Please help


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Those Solen polycaps are non-directional.

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mzk4c3_
> *I got these Solen Caps from Partsexpress and i can't tell any polarity on the cap itself.
> 
> 
> Does this mean they are non-directional???
> 
> 
> I think the Audax DIY project is nice, bu I don't think anyone covers the cross over well enough for a novice to make them correctly.
> 
> 
> Please help*


----------



## Rop

I've finally decided to build the Audax Home Theater speakers and am pulling together the list of parts. A question that came up:


Is there any difference between the (expensive) eggcrate foam sold by PartsExpress vs. the Walmart matress pad? Wondering how the Walmart stuff holds up over time (wouldn't want it to crumble to dust inside my speakers), and if there's a difference in how well one or the other deadens sounds.


-Rob-


----------



## George

I just found a local foam dealer near my job who's prices can't be beat.


Plus I can go in and only order what I want.


So check for local foam dealers.


I would think that foam is foam. The matress stuff is designed for daily use so it should hold up. I'm not sure what the real purpose of the foam is.


Some people use foam on the walls and stuffing as well.


We spend all of the time building the box only to fill it with foam.


Looks like $11 walmart pad will do both my fronts and maybe the center as well.


I think the drawings for this project leave a few surprises and the cross overs building can be confusing. I would think that some should post more info on the cross over building to help us newbies out.


Should get my fronts working this weekend. Got all the other MFD peices cut and ready for assembly. Were are you in your project????


----------



## George

Rop one thing I would do is pace yourself.


I only bought the eletronic parts for the fronts only and all of the MFD.


Its proven to be a fun and interesting project. But there is a learning curve.


It will take me atleast 2-3 weeks to get the fronts done.


Now i know why some of the guys took several months to get theirs done.


Also partexpress doesn't always have all of the Caps you need which will also slow things down.


You need to plan on spending atleast 2 -4 more hours just to figure out all of the other detials around how you will build. The drawings really don't give you how to constuct the box on the dimensions.


I had to read other guys' post to figure how i wanted to attach this project.


I really feel those who have built and are building should help update the plans to help thos that follow. More is need on how to build the cross overs.


OK OK OK guys I only got one more post.


----------



## George

Sorry for my typing and spelling, I really should slow down and get it right.

But my wife is pressuring me to go shopping and I must get this out in hopes to get some feed back to continue my project.


Q how did you guys attach the speaker leads from the cross over to the speakers? did you use the free connector given by PE?



Q Can someone post the link which shows how to apply wood veneer.

I think one of you knows how to use wood glue and a Iron for an easier way.


Q I'm assuming that there will be two sets of wires running from the speaker cup to both cross overs. or do I run one set from the speaker cup to the woofer cross over and then 2nd set of wire from the woofer to the tweeter cross over in parallel?


thanks one and all


----------



## Rop

Thanks for the feedback mzk4c3! Thanks for the advise too, taking it slow is always good advise (even if I don't always listen..







). Hearing that it's going to take at least 2 WalMart pads to do the speakers I think I'll just buy the foam from PartsExpress. The difference is pretty small in that case (it takes 8 of PE's pads to do all speakers), and at least I'm sure the stuff is meant for acoustic use. My main concern with foam is that I've seen it "rot" (for lack of a better word), where just touching it would make it crumple to dust. Granted, that was an old piece, but still, I don't want to have to open those speakers up a decade from now. Another part has to do with foam density. While looking around on the Internet it seems a certain density works best for deadening sound. No idea if those WalMart pads have that density. It'll probably not matter too much one way or the other, but as I said the price difference seems pretty small


I'll probably go ahead and order the parts needed for all 5 speakers tonight. I don't want to miss out on the Audax deal they have going, and while it takes me a long time to get started on anything I tend to really get going once started.


B.t.w. I've gone over the parts list that was published in Excel format and shaved quite a bit off the price by going with somewhat cheaper brands (but still more than good enough IMO for the intended purpose). If anyone is interested I'll be happy to provide a link.


mzk4c3, I might be able to help you a bit with the crossovers once I get my parts in. My background is in electrical engineering, and I've build lots of things electronic (all over the electromagnetic spectrum). It'll be my first serious speaker building project though, not counting my previous exploits in just sticking speakers behind panels or in existing boxes. I still have misgivings about the size of the Audax center channel, but hopefully I (and more importantly my wife) will be blown away by the sound to the point where the larger size can be overlooked. If not, you're going to see them on E-Bay down the road!










So, to answer your wiring question: It does not matter. You can run a set of wires from the terminal cup to each crossover, or wire from crossover to crossover. Whatever is easier for you to do. Makes no electrical difference (assuming you're using at least 16 gauge wire).


As to connectors vs. soldering: I've seen people post about both with regard to the Audax speakers. Personally I'd always solder them. Over time there's just too much chance of corrosion spoiling the connetion and I really wouldn't want to have to open them up again. When soldering, make sure to do it fast enough not to melt the plastic frame of these speakers. In other words, don't just keep heating it but use a proper sized soldering iron that can quickly get the work done (25 Watt should work just fine, that's what I have used for similar things).


-Rob-


----------



## George

rop


I'm assuming since you created your own list of altarnative parts, I guess parts express has what you want in stock?


I had to pick different caps because they didn't have the recommended ones in stock.


I'll try to post my 1st two woofer cross over constructions so you can look them over and correct issues if any.


i didn't know how fast heat can travel through the leads, hope i didn't cook something during soldering.


----------



## George

Hey Rop


Check this out and tell me if I'm toast????


I used old 12-3 house wire I had left over from some project.


----------



## Rop

Looks good to me! Nice job!

The wire is not important IMO. As long as it is thick enough, and 16 AWG should be fine for such short lengths (ie. any lamp zip-cord would do).


One comment if I may: Can't really tell from the pictures if you did or not, but I'd recommend getting a tube of "Goop" glue and also liberally applying glue to the components and glue them to the boards. Its not that they'll go anywhere with those ties you used, but you don't want them to rattle when you crank up the volume.


The frying was in reference to attaching the leads to the speakers. Not so much about the crossover components (It's pretty hard to fry most of those). As to the speaker leads, my plan is to test using connectors, then solder them before final assembly.


-Rob-


----------



## Rop

Placed my Parts Express order, so the wait has began. They had everything except for the 6.8mH and 1.5mH inductors (center channel and surrounds resp.). Those are backordered for now, hopefully they'll get in by the time I get to building these parts, otherwise I'll find another source for these.

Here is my parts list . It's a bit cheaper than others that have been published here.


Guess I should go out and get me some MDF. Make sawdust...










-Rob-


----------



## George

a few of the guys noted and I've found the same issue.


I think the pass through hole called out for the woofers is to small if you plan to rabbit the speakers flush later.


You'll need like a 5/8 0r 3/4 rabbit to get the speaker flush.


You may want to consider making the pass through hole 1/8 or so larger.


Don't forget Homedepot will cut the close to size if you request it.


I got them to cut the 4'X8' sheet down into 8 or 9 pieces.


----------



## moonhawk

When I did my cutouts, I found that it was difficult to find a rabbett bit that was the proper width, as the rabbett bits come in 1/8 in. increments, and the lip required a 7/16, or something like that.


If you have a circle cutting jig, here is a workaround:


First, cut the total outside diameter-opening plus rabbett for the driver flange- at the depth needed for the flange, then reset the jig to the diameter of the driver opening, and cut the inner hole all the way through, using the same center.


The Jigs are settable to smaller increments, thus allowing a more accurate fit, and less setup time.


----------



## J. L.

moonhawk,


When I built my Audax center channel enclosure I used the technique you just described (cutting the rabbet first, then using a second smaller diameter setting to cut through the opening for the driver). That worked really well to cut the MDF but did not do anything to make the trimming of the veneer covering the enclosure easier. I had to carefully trim the veneer even with the speaker opening by hand using a razor knife.


When I built my Left/Right enclosures I used a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit to allow me to flush mount the driver. That is where I learned that the opening for the speaker basket needs to be made 1/8th inch larger if you want to use a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit and have everything fit. I ended up using a sanding drum to make my original rabbet wider and still had to trim the veneer by hand. (I only made the rabbet wider, I did not make the opening for the basket wider so the rabbeting bit left me with 1/6th inch of veneer that still had to be trimmed by hand)


The final set of enclosures I built were for the surround channels. I made the speaker basket openings 1/8th inch larger, used the 1/2 inch rabbeting bit to cut the recess for the flange, and then used the same bit to trim the veneer even with the edge of the rabbet. This was by far the easiest and looks great.


In my opinion, as long as the driver can be mounted using a 1/2 inch rabbet, then adjust the driver cutout to take advantage of the 1/2 inch rabbeting bits that are widely available. They can be used to cut the rabbet and, after veneer is applied, trim the veneer in the opening. It is way less work and lot easier to get the final result to look great.


Joe L.


----------



## moonhawk

Interesting..


I'm using a solid wood front, top, and bottom (bonded to an Apple-Ply inner),and pre-veneered MDF on the sides, so I can round over all edges of the box...Thus, no need to deal with veneer...maybe next time!


Anyway, your method sounds good. Are you using a flush trim bit to trim the veneer from the rabbett? How deep is the rabbett?


Live and learn.


----------



## George

Well i should be able to fire these babies up in a few hours.


Need to do and extend test prior to final sealing the box.


I think I will place the cross overs on the back wall opposite both woofers for the fronts.


I,ve never made a cross over before or solder something electronic other than an old RC car.


So the test should be very interesting.


What did you guys do for testing to insure you got everything right????


----------



## J. L.

moonhawk,


I can't take any credit for the technique I used to flush mount my drivers and trim the veneer.


I found the tip well illustrated at this link at speakerbuilder.net 


It is actually pretty easy and much simpler than trimming the veneer by hand.


Joe L.


----------



## moonhawk

J.L.


Cool, I get it now.


Thanks for the link.


----------



## trentstockton

What a thread!! You guys have saved me a LOT of money! I have been auditioning speakers to upgrade to, but haven't been satisfied with anything until i get to the 3 grand range or so. My cousin has a set of "Big a/v"'s from madisound and i liked them when i heard them so i built one for myself. It is certainly better than what I have, but it is not quite for me as the highs are a bit hot and the staging too forward for my taste. I had heard that diy speakers were not good idea, but this thread proves that notion very wrong. I think these projects are just what I am looking for.


I would like to start with a sub. I am a little overwhelmed with the choices, though. What I want is a sub for movies. I want it to go way down, but I don't need overkill as my room is 12 X 14 and seven feet tall. I can construct the sub- no problem. Getting it to sound good in my room- clueless.


My questions are:


1. Can you tell where the sound is coming from? I guess this is a placement question. Does it matter or is it preferable for the sub to be in the middle (coffe table style) or in the front or back?


2. Does the placement affect box size? do the drivers have one box size? or do you futz with the size to get sounding good in a particular room or particular source (movies vs. music)?


3. What size woofer should I be looking at?


I guess what I am getting at is that I want a quality sub that has an even sound in my room, but I am not sure how to get that. Any input or direction (if this is not the right place to be asking the questions) would be greatly appeciated!


BTW kudos on your projects! thanks for the pictures and taking the time to share your knowledge.


----------



## George

clamped the final side of my two fronts to the the boxes and fired them up

for a test drive.


WOW they work.


They took about 1 hour to warm up or brake in.


Sfter that i started hearing stuff in the highs and texture in the mids that I had not heard before with my previous cheap MTM.


I cept look at a speaker when I heard somthing new, thinking it was a problem with the speaker, but its wasn't, it was in the sound track.


I had 12" woofers in my previous MTM, so the auda fronts don't kick the same bass with the sub truned off.


But they blend perfectly with the sub, so I get details from the fronts and the lows perfectly blended from the sub, so that you don't know the sub is there.


I need to build the center and then 2 sets of surrounds to complete the HT package.


Going to put a week in before i seal the box.


Later


----------



## Jeff Hovis

mzk4c3,

Did you get your xover assembled correctly? I noticed that you were looking for some pictures of xovers.

jeff


----------



## George

hey guys thanks for your help


Jeff, since the fronts work, I'm assuming I got the cross overs correct.


I'm trying to buy the components for the center but Partsexp doesn't have

the 6.8mH inductor.


I guess I can run two in series but that's double the cost of the required part.


Wow.


I wonder whereelse I can get an 6.8mH iron core inductor 16gage????


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Go to Madisound and look at theirs. I used one of their sledge steel iron core in my recent MBOW1 project.

jeff


----------



## Rop

mzk4c3, Zalytron also has that one for a price similar to PE. They also sell the 1.5mH coil that PE has backordered (for the surrounds) for a price close to PE's.


-Rob-


----------



## George

Got the Audax center channel cross over components today.


WOW, you talking about huge!!!!!!


some of this stuff is as big as a coffee cup


In fact I really didn't get a feel for how big the speakers were until I started building them. They're huge.


The center is proving to be a monster!

good thing I got the room for it.


Each day I really feel I'm getting my dollars worth out of this project.


----------



## George

hey guys Parts express didn't have the 6.8 inductor so I had to get a 3.3 & 3.5 inductors, which I'm told I can run in series to achieve 6.8.


My question. How to run in series?


do I run inside wire lead from inductor 1 to out wire lead on the 2nd inductor


or

inside to inside


or

out side to out side


or

outside inductor 1 to inside of inductor 2.


Can I assume that these iron core inductors or NON-directional.


Please help team.


----------



## J. L.

Although it probably will not make any difference, since the two coils will couple some magnetically, I would connect one inside to the other outside (your third choice)


I would also mount the two inductors at right angles to each other to minimize the magnetic coupling.


Joe L.


----------



## George

where did you place your cross overs for the centers?


I believe you purchased your cross overs assembled form madisond.

Still I got to believe they were huge like the parts from partsexpress.


Did you place your tweeter and 41/2 woofer in their enclosure of in the main mid enclosure.


Also I'm assuming that you had to drill a hole to get the wires through to the tweeter/mid speakers.


I keep thinking that I got the wrong parts based on their huge sizes.


----------



## J. L.

The crossovers just barely fit through the driver openings on my Audax center channel enclosure. It sounds like you got the right parts... they are not small.


I mounted one crossover board behind the left woofer, one behind the right woofer, and one behind the midrange. Yes, I did have to drill a hole through the back of the mid/tweeter enclosure to pass the wires. (Actually two wires, one from the terminal cup to the crossover board in the center compartment, and the other from the other driver in the center compartment to its crossover mounted behind one of the woofers)


I then used lots of silicone caulk to seal the hole I made for the wires to make the center compartment air-tight as designed. (This is very important)


Joe L.


In this photo I took during construction, you can see the crossover boards in the bottom of each section of the enclosure:


----------



## George

looks like you added some cross speaker support reinforcements?


I just might add them as well.


Is the silicon you used hard or remains flexiable.


I think I should be using hard and not the flexiable stuff.


I also used hard 12-2 wires for my speaker runs from the cross overs to the speakers......STUPID


I will switch them over to regular flexiable 12 gauge speaker wire.


I broke a few speaker terminals...opps thank God for hot glue....


I couldn't believe the fronts, so I can't wait to get this center done this weekend.


Great projects on your end. But I do have one issue with you!

I couldn't get a good scale on how large these puppies were in your pics.


Oh my goodness, you tricked me into this project, now you must stay tune till i finish. Thanks


----------



## J. L.

mzk4c3,


I used the type of caulk that is normally used around doors and windows to seal them from the weather. I expect that it stays somewhat flexible. I don't think the specific type of caulk matters as much as getting the inner sub-enclosure of the center channel sealed air-tight.


Yes, I did add two supports between the side walls and the inner enclosure walls. don't know if they help, but they can't hurt either.


Sorry... I don't buy the fact that you were caught by surprise by the size of the enclosure. Almost everybody in this thread has commented one way or another about the size. It is big. It weighs a bit over 50 pounds if you made the front and rear baffles 1 1/2 inches thick as I did, and probably 45 pounds if you did not. The Audax HT center channel is not for everyone; for many it just will not fit.


I think Jeff Hovis did a bit of research and found only a handful of commercial center channel speakers that were as large and weighed as much. Now... you might have had a difficult time visualizing an enclosure that is two feet wide, but now that you have your project nearly complete, you will understand what we have been saying. It is a big enclosure.


The following picture shows the relative sizes of all the Audax HT speakers. For future reference, my screen is 8 feet wide and 4 1/2 feet tall. Please note the surround channel speakers sitting on the stage (for the picture only) are not small either. (Don't want you to be caught by surprise if you decide to build them next.














)


Joe L.


----------



## George

JL you have a point.


I was blinded by your craftsmanship that I never scaled your pics for size.


As an engineer I should have notice the dimensions on the drawing.


But it just didn't hit me till I started cubing the speaker box together.


Don't get me wrong, I like them big and my HT has room, no problem.


One more Question


I think there is an error with the parts list for th audax project


He calls for two 4.0uF cap ran in parallel to make 8.0uf.

but the part number is for a 2.0uf cap.


I have four 2.0uf caps, can I run them in parallel to make 8.0 uf?

is this a waste of 4 caps or a typo on the parts list???


----------



## George

I think someone told me to turn the inductors 90 deg to each other.


I have to run them in series to make a final value.


How should I turn the two large caps relative to the two inductors

which will form an L together.


see pic


----------



## J. L.

mzk4c3,


Thanks for the "craftsmanship" compliment.



Good catch! The original Audax plans call for 8 uF. for the center channel as C6 in the tweeter crossover.


I think you are right, the parts list somebody compiled is incorrect. it incorrectly has the PE part number for a 2 uF capacitor as you discovered. It should instead have the part number of a 4 uF capacitor . (2 in parallel to = 8uF)


If you have enough of the 2 uF parts, you can parallel 4 of them to get the 8uF. It is really up to you. If not, time to place a new order.


Oh yes, one last thing... your crossover layout is fine, you do not have to orient the capacitors any way special relative to anything else or to each other.


Attached is the PDF another AVS member compiled from the original Audax plans. If you do not already have it, it may help as a reference as you build your speakers. I think the errors in the original audax site's plans have even been corrected in it. Enjoy.


Joe L.

 

audax.pdf 392.8095703125k . file


----------



## Skidout67

Joe L.

I just want to say I was hoping to find some diy speaker plans in this section, to compliment my new theater, and all I have to say is damn. I still haven't gotten through this whole thread, but you're pictures and info inspired me. I will be ordering the required components soon, and am definately going to do the audax system. You have excellent craftsmanship, not at all on the order of a first time builder. Your work looks tremendous, and you are very lucky to have wife support. I wish I could say the same about my wife approval factor. Excellent job, keep up the good work, I will definately use you as my go to guy if I need help or assistance on this project. I will also have to stay tuned to this thread, though I don't know how much bigger it can get.


Also, everyone else who's posted their projects in here, hats off to you all too. The array project looks very nice, and alot of you have very interesting, and modern looking designs. You all did a great job.


Thank you all for this great thread, great ideas and motivation to do the same. I'll be checking this thread regularly....


Aaron


----------



## George

skidout67


You will be very happy with these speakers.


I just can't believe the components we're putting into these things.


Wait until you see the cross over components for the center speaker.


Some of them are as big as a coffee cup.


There is noway a $800 7 speaker set can be purchased and match this quality. No way. This is a hit.


Good Luck


----------



## Rop

J.L. already posted the general Audax plans (and yes, they do correct the errors in the original document, just compared the two). To have it all in one place, here is a link to the same:

Audax HT DYI plans 


There are also PDFs with more detailed drawings. Seems attaching multiple documents to a posting does not work, so I'm including URLs.

Front speakers 
Center speaker 
Surround speakers 
Subwoofer 


Here is a spreadsheet with my shopping list for the entire set of speakers (excluding the sub), using PartsExpress parts. The error of the original list has been corrected, and I've substituted quite a few parts for cheaper ones of IMO equal quality for this project.

Audax parts list 


My parts came in yesterday. Two boxes: A very light one with acoustic foam, and a 46 !! pound box with all the other parts. Except for a broken resistor all was in good order, and a new resistor is in the mail. Got to see if I can get out in the weekend and buy some MDF...


-Rob-


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Rop,

Nice list! Back in Jan, I bought components to build 3 rear Audax speakers. I had been using Energy Take2 speakers in the rear since building the L/C/R last year. I also used Jantzen 15g and Dayton caps and resistors. For some reason, I used a Solen for the 1.0uF (I think the Daytons were backordered). I also used a single 16ohm resistor instead of the 15ohm which wasn't available. I've just been too busy to build them.

Jeff


----------



## Skidout67

Thanks george.. that is exactly why i'm drawn to this thread.. and the audax HT system..


Rop, excellent of you to post all the latest and greatest in one place.. that was exactly what i was looking for.. through all that into a folder, now i should have everything i need.. Thanks for that..


Aaron


----------



## George

I would strongly suggest to anyone that they size each speaker box panel and add one extra inch.


Take your list to Homedepot and have them cut the pieces for you.


Remember add a little extra, I never trust them.


next when you get home make all of the same dimension cuts at the same time.


I would cut all of the speakers box material in the same weekend.


once you build one, the others go really fast.


see pic


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Whenever possible, I buy 12x48 or 16x48 MDF planks. They are a tad more expensive and sooo much easier to work with. Some Home Depots don't carry these. I have two within 5-miles of my home: I refer to one as the man's store and the other as the woman's store;-) The man's store carries way more stuff like multiple sizes of MDF. It's a real Tim Allen kinda store.


I'm always in the midst of some home improvement project and I have a lot of power tools (table saw, router, compound mitre saw, 3 drills, circular saws, recipro saw, orbital sander, belt sander, jig saw, biscuit joiner). I always use my table saw whenever possible and cut some panels exact and some a little large. I have made an example here:
http://europa70.tripod.com//panel_cutting001.htm 

I use a router and trim bit with a roller bearing to remove the excess.

jeff




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by George_
> *I would strongly suggest to anyone that they size each speaker box panel and add one extra inch.
> 
> 
> Take your list to Homedepot and have them cut the pieces for you.
> 
> 
> Remember add a little extra, I never trust them.
> 
> 
> next when you get home make all of the same dimension cuts at the same time.
> 
> 
> I would cut all of the speakers box material in the same weekend.
> 
> 
> once you build one, the others go really fast.
> 
> 
> see pic*


----------



## safaa

home depot they have a saw to cut , but they never cut right,


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by safaa_
> *home depot they have a saw to cut , but they never cut right,*



That's why if you have them make cuts for you, ask for it to be cut about 1" bigger than what you actually need. And then finish cut it to the proper size when you get it home. As Home Depot and other places like them, only do rough cuts, that are in no way accurate. And they will even tell you that they will not guarantee their cuts to be anywhere near being done with any precision to them. Not to mention most of the time they use a panel cutting saw setup, which are far from the most precise cutting saws made, no matter how careful you are when using one.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

That's why I like the pre-cut 12" or 16" MDF planks. They are available in 48" or 96" lengths. Not all Home Depot stores carry them. If I have to buy a 4x8 sheet, I'll have them cut it in half. It makes it easier for me to handle. You can also by 2'x4' sheets of MDF at HD. I have a table saw and it makes a nice cut, but still not perfect.


----------



## J. L.

A major advantage of the pre-cut MDF that Jeff is describing is that the factory cut edges are square and accurate.


If you lay out your required enclosure pieces prior to doing your cuts, you will find you only have half the edges that need trimming, the others will already be correct.


When I built my Left/Right channel enclosures, I had purchased 2 x 4 foot pieces of MDF. Once I got them home, I made this crude "cut-sheet" that helped me to take advantage of the factory edges. (I do not have a table saw, just a hand-held circular saw and a clamped straight-edge for a guide) Notice that all but one of the pieces in my plan was able to have two of the factory cut edges.



At the same time, at the bottom of the page I made a illustration of how the various pieces would assemble once cut. This helped me to ensure I was cutting the pieces I really needed and the eventual enclosure was the specified size.










Next step was to transfer the same cut marks to the pieces of MDF. I actually drew two lines for each cut.... the actual dimension I targeted, and a second parallel "cut-line" spaced approx 1/4 inch away. It allowed me to make sure I had the material needed to trim later. I used pieces of masking tape to mark and identify the pieces to make assembly easier.










As already described, I cut my pieces slightly (1/4 inch) larger than needed and then trimmed them with a flush cutting bit in my router to the correct size. When I needed a 90 degree angle, I clamped a factory 90 degree cut to one of mine and trimmed them even. When two pieces needed to be exactly the same dimension I clamped them together and trimmed using the same flush-cutting bit. It actually went pretty quick.


I some cases, as when I was cutting the pieces for the outer layer of MDF for the front and rear of the enclosure, I made the cut larger, glued it in place, then trimmed it flush with the inner layer.


If these pre-cut smaller pieces of MDF are available in your local store, I would encourage you to use them rather than have the store make oversize pieces that you have to trim to size anyway. When you use the smaller pieces of pre-cut MDF to start, you get to use more of the accurate factory cut edges.


Joe L.


----------



## smithsonga

Jeff


Have you tried putting the boxes together with the biscuit joiner? 'With accurate table saw cuts and accurate biscuit slots' you could put together a very tight box.


I dont like just using butt joints...at least using a rabbet.


Jim


----------



## mb2004

I build custom home theater subwoofers to match home decor. Here is one I have built recently. Neon light accents are real nice. This is a 12" model using a JL Audio 12w6v2 sub. When powered with a good 800 to 1000 watts is is stunning.


----------



## Teran




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by smithsonga_
> *Jeff
> 
> 
> Have you tried putting the boxes together with the biscuit joiner? 'With accurate table saw cuts and accurate biscuit slots' you could put together a very tight box.
> 
> 
> I dont like just using butt joints...at least using a rabbet.
> 
> 
> Jim*



Agree, I try to use at least a rabbet. Sometimes I cheat and use biscuits if in a hurry.


For my last test box, I actually used 45 degree angles on all pieces and biscuits to join since I was in a hurry and didn't want to have to do any calculations -- all panels were cut to the full size for that side of enclosure. While it was a sliding mess until clamped tight it made for nice looking box with no edges shown when done.


----------



## George

I use butt joints glued with excessive amounts of glue


Plus


I hit my box with hundreds of 2" brad nails.


This instantly fixes everything. I even unclamp right after brad nailing the glue up.


I do let the glue set up over night.


But trust me, it aint moving










Plus I fake a rabbit by glue and brad nailing 1/2 MFD to 3/4 MFD.

The 1/2 MFD out dimension are smaller than the 3/4MFD and act like the rabbit surfaces.


Final results. double the glued surfaces plus 2" brad nails.


Guys, my walls don't move and its really a fast assembly.


----------



## George

no one talks about the sub in the audax diy kit



I don't think I've seen any post that they made the sub.


I have a diy sub, but I was just wondering????


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jim,

I just got the joiner. I bought it for my next two speaker projects: first, two surrounds and one rear Audax speaker. Second, a set of Dayton 2-ways that are supposed to be a surprise for my daughter's 12th b'day. I'm also finally building the two rear columns in our HT. Finished one last night. The biscuits along with the factory cut edges that I get when using the pre-cut 12x48 and/or 16x48 MDF will make great joints. A little tip for everyone who needs clamps: if you have a Harbor Freight Tools nearby, they have excellent prices on clamps. They are usually quite a bit less than HD. Some of their power tools are on the cheap side and I mean quality. However, I do have a 24v 1/2" cordless drill that I bought there that has been great. I also have a small table top vertical belt sander and a grinder that I bought there that have been very good. They have a little cordless circular saw that I think is also pretty good. A contractor who was installing the new cabinets in our kitchen remodel had one and he used it every day of the job.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by smithsonga_
> *Jeff
> 
> 
> Have you tried putting the boxes together with the biscuit joiner? 'With accurate table saw cuts and accurate biscuit slots' you could put together a very tight box.
> 
> 
> I dont like just using butt joints...at least using a rabbet.
> 
> 
> Jim*


----------



## Jeff Hovis

George,

I don't think any of us has built the Audax sub. I've heard it isn't that great. Joe and I built 18" sonosubs with 15" woofers. Joe used the Tempest and I used the Dayton DVC with 250w amps. Did you build the Audax or another?


I have also used brads in some of my cabinets. I have a 2.5HP 8gal portable air compressor and a brad nailer. I'm going to buy a deck nailer sometime for a new deck project we have in the works. I forget about my compressor a lot since I don't use it very often. I have an 1970 Lotus Sports Car that I used to solo race. It was also being prepped for the vintage sports car racing circuit (HSR). That's why I have the compressor.


----------



## George

Hey jeff


I didn't make the audax sub.


I kinda piece together a swan 308 12" drive with a 100Watt amp.

I think its a 120L box.


Lots of bass when ships fly over, yeah baby.



going to build a 2nd set of surrounds for my rear surrounds.


I have a 7.1 set-up so I'll do two rears instead of one.


I need to remove my inwalls speakers and replace them with the audax surrounds. I will hide them in side my columns, hope they sound good recessed.


Later


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hmmm, what can I do to be more like JL today? I know, I'll order an HK AVR7200! That's right, I started my Audax project after JL and now I've ordered the 7200...just like JL. I couldn't stand looking at that great deal on the 7200 another day so I bought one. I think I did build my sub first;-)

I still haven't told my wife and it will be here on Friday.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *I still haven't told my wife and it will be here on Friday.*



Hmmmmmm, I think someone has some MAJOR Valentine's day plans to be making then.....


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


You are right... you did build your sub before I built mine... I guess imitation is a form of flattery.







Congrats on your HK 7200 purchase. I guess it is OK for us to spend some money on new receivers, after all, we did save some money by building DIY speakers for our theaters. Now, will the marriage (and budget) survive?


At least I told my wife of my purchase of the receiver PRIOR to ordering it and before its arrival at my doorstep. (Her only surprise was when she got our Visa bill last month, and then only because she thought I had used a different charge card, not because of the amount!)


Let's see... Valentine's Day is Saturday...
Candy... Yeah...sure.... a $10 box of candy might appease her... Not.
Flowers... Yeah... Roses are good.... Might be a tad expensive this close to Valentine's Day, but certainly less than the receiver.
Dinner at a nice restaurant... (One where they do NOT ask if you want to "super-size" your order)
Jewelry... Here is where the cost of your receiver can easily be equaled or exceeded.


Joe L.

PS.

I surprised my wife with three dozen red roses yesterday. (30th wedding anniversary) Yes, they were more expensive that at other times of the year, but still way less than the cost of a new receiver







.


----------



## safaa

happy anniversary


many many more to come


----------



## Ron_C

Ok, crossover question. I think I have everything else figured out except this. What do you use to connect the speaker wire to the crossover. I obviously know solder, but I mean do you connect the speaker wire directly to a component on the crossover or is there a part you buy that you solder to the component and then solder your speaker wire to it? Also, I am a little confused about the crossover diagrams. In most, I see a Input(+), a GND(-) and a output(+). My question is do I connect the negative coming from the terminal cup to the GND and then the negative going to the speaker to the GND also? So they both solder to the crossover at the same spot? Once I clear this up I think I am ready to go.


During lunch I went to HD and bought a 4x8 sheet of MDF and had them cut it up into smaller pieces, rough sized to the dimension each piece(+1 inch or so). I am very impressed and satisfied with how the cuts came out. All pieces came out square and very close to the measurements I asked for(that is what +1 inch is for). Now the cuts may not be 100% square, but I have no doubt that they are at least as good as what I could have done with my table saw or circular saw and straight edge. So again, don't expect precise measuments and cutting(give at least an inch), but the cuts are very acceptable and square...at least in this HD. It is definitely worth the extra $2.50 to have the cuts done for you(or $.25 a cut). Your HD may very.


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## M NEWMAN




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ron_C_
> *Ok, crossover question. I think I have everything else figured out except this. What do you use to connect the speaker wire to the crossover. I obviously know solder, but I mean do you connect the speaker wire directly to a component Yes on the crossover or is there a part you buy that you solder to the component and then solder your speaker wire to it?If you want to, but not necessary Also, I am a little confused about the crossover diagrams. In most, I see a Input(+), a GND(-) 'cause GND is common - both out's and in's are the same connection and a output(+). My question is do I connect the negative coming from the terminal cup to the GND and then the negative going to the speaker to the GND also? Yes So they both solder to the crossover at the same spot? Once I clear this up I think I am ready to go.
> 
> 
> During lunch I went to HD and bought a 4x8 sheet of MDF and had them cut it up into smaller pieces, rough sized to the dimension each piece(+1 inch or so). I am very impressed and satisfied with how the cuts came out. All pieces came out square and very close to the measurements I asked for(that is what +1 inch is for). Now the cuts may not be 100% square, but I have no doubt that they are at least as good as what I could have done with my table saw or circular saw and straight edge. So again, don't expect precise measuments and cutting(give at least an inch), but the cuts are very acceptable and square...at least in this HD. It is definitely worth the extra $2.50 to have the cuts done for you(or $.25 a cut). Your HD may very.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ron*


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Ron,

check out these pages. They should help you with you xover:
http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_fi...xo/xoconst.htm 


Also see:
http://www.solen.ca/cross.htm 


These are both really good.

Jeff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey Joe,

Happy anniversary! We celebrated 15-yrs back on Oct 1.


BTW, my HK 7200 came today a day early. I was down in S FL until this afternoon and it was 80-degrees. I was 40-degrees and of course raining when we landed in Atlanta. This thing is a brute. I'll definitely have to make some rack mods


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,

Congratulations on getting your new receiver a day early. Good thing you were back from your trip.


I looked at your signature line and thought to myself "Did he get a chance to break the news to his wife prior to its arrival on their doorstep?"


I am in the middle of building a "Candy Counter" for our theater. I know it has nothing to do with DIY speakers, but it was the experience I got building the speakers that permitted me to undertake it as a project. I'll start a thread in the "Home-Theater Accessories" forum as I continue with its construction,.


Great that you recently celebrated your 15th anniversary. Congratulations again. Do remember to do something nice tomorrow for your wife. Flowers and Candy can't hurt! It might take her mind off of your new RX for a few minutes.

















Joe L.

PS.

Tomorrow (Valentine's Day) will be the 34th anniversary of my first date with my wife. (Sounds romantic, doesn't it) Cupid must have been busy...


----------



## Johnla

Just a heads up in case anyone is looking for some 7" Vifa woofers at one heck of a good price. Parts Express has the 7" Vifa woofers that were originally made for Infinity, for $9 each, as their "Deal of the day" set to expire on 02-16-04 at 5pm.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...93&dotd=021304 


Specs on them show them to be a very close match to this normal 7" Vifa TC TC18WG49-08

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...D=118141&DID=7


----------



## M NEWMAN

Yea, John, I noticed those too. I just don't have a good project to use them in right now. Crap!! Hate to let a steal go by....


----------



## George

I notice that your fronts look taller than mines or the prints.


Did you do some type of modification?


Just wondering.


I just cut a recess into my stage to get the center to fit.


Now its aligned with the fronts, everything sounds great.


----------



## J. L.

George,


Clearly, you have not memorized this entire DIY Speaker thread or you would know the answer...
























In the 56th post in this thread (out of 1157), I described how I modified the dimensions of the Left/Right enclosures to fit the space I had available and to accommodate the changes I would make in their construction:



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by J. L._
> *
> 
> I started the L/R fronts by sitting down with the plans and re-engineering the dimensions slightly. I planned to double up on the front and rear panels and therefore wanted to adjust the depth and height to keep the speakers from extending too far past the screen.
> 
> 
> I kept the internal volume of the enclosure the same as originally designed.
> 
> This resulted in a bit more than 4 inches of height added to the cabinet and them being 2 inches less deep (internally). The extra 1 1/2 inches added by the thicker front and rear panels result in the speakers having almost the same external depth as in the original design. Along side my 106 inch screen I had plenty of available height so the modified dimensions look well visually.
> 
> 
> I made myself a plan showing how I would cut the required pieces from the 2x4 foot MDF panels I had purchased. It also showed how they would assemble.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



So... you are not seeing things, your L/R speakers are not as tall as mine unless you too decided on the same changes in dimensions.


Joe L.


----------



## George

JL I didn't know I was going to get a pop quiz on mid semester stuff.



Correct you once again sir.


I increased the size of the front and rear baffles as well, but I grew mine in the dept were as you grew yours in the height.


Cool.


believe it or not, I think I'm going to finish my speakers with a leather like vinyl.


I just need them to be black, they're almost hiddedn now.


----------



## J. L.

George,


OK, no more pop-quizzes. You do have good eyes however, you did spot the difference in height.


Are you at a point where you are using your new speakers? Do you have any pictures? Sounds like you have the center channel built too. I'd love to see how they look in your theater.


I fully understand about you wanting the speakers to simply be black and not be the focal point of the room. I got pretty close with dyed veneer, but flat black paint instead of veneer would be much quicker.


Good luck with your finish. I'm sure they will look great.


You could always temporarily use something like this self adhesive vinyl from PartsExpress and then, if it does not look as you desire, apply something else later on.


Joe L.


----------



## Jay Wilson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Johnla_
> *Just a heads up in case anyone is looking for some 7" Vifa woofers at one heck of a good price. Parts Express has the 7" Vifa woofers that were originally made for Infinity, for $9 each, as their "Deal of the day" set to expire on 02-16-04 at 5pm.
> 
> http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...93&dotd=021304
> 
> 
> Specs on them show them to be a very close match to this normal 7" Vifa TC TC18WG49-08
> 
> http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...D=118141&DID=7 *



]


So does anyone have a good design that these would work into?


----------



## Teran

Roll or spray on truck bed liner can do a good job too. The only downside is that you wouldn't want to put veneer over it. For bed liner, first paint with black paint then the liner so there isn't any see-through of the MDF.


----------



## safaa




> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *George,
> 
> I don't think any of us has built the Audax sub. I've heard it isn't that great. Joe and I built 18" sonosubs with 15" woofers. Joe used the Tempest and I used the Dayton DVC with 250w amps. Did you build the Audax or another?
> 
> 
> I have also used brads in some of my cabinets. I have a 2.5HP 8gal portable air compressor and a brad nailer. I'm going to buy a deck nailer sometime for a new deck project we have in the works. I forget about my compressor a lot since I don't use it very often. I have an 1970 Lotus Sports Car that I used to solo race. It was also being prepped for the vintage sports car racing circuit (HSR). That's why I have the compressor.* [/QUOTE
> 
> =============================
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&pagenumber=42
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&pagenumber=41
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they sound great ,


----------



## Jeff Hovis

safaa,

I just around to reading this and your two links. If you go back a page, you'll see that George asked about the Audax subwoofer, not the Adire Tempest. I didn't see anything about the Audax on those two pages that you posted above. My answer was specifically about the Audax sub not sounding that good. I'll admit that I didn't read every single word in every line of those two pages and I may have missed a reference to the Audax subwoofers. It's no big deal. BTW, I built a 15" Dayton DVC sub in a tube. The DVC is very close to the specs of the Tempest and a few dollars less. Then again, maybe I misunderstood your message. Maybe you're saying that the Tempest sounds good and I'll agree.


This was just an excuse to bring our thread back to the first page;-)

jeff


----------



## George

I think you had it correct.


We do need to bring this back to the front page.


every since i got mine running, I've lost interest in the tread.


Forgive me guys.


I really need to finish the surface of these bad boys.


Its getting old looking at the MDF.


I'm really feeling lazy and want to paint the black and forget about it.


In my HT no one will see them.


what do you guys think


I did cut the center into my stage to back it up an align it with the fronts.


later


----------



## seeeeee

Found this great thread and just had to chip in. I read, someone did not believe it was a good value to build their own speakers, because you get the same performance from production units for less. I don't have trained ear nor alot of speaker education, but I did grow up hang out Speaker Craft's original place of business, which was just a step away from a couple of friends making speakers out of their garage. I also hung out with Albert Von Schweikert's ( when he was a salesman at Leo Stereo) house in Riverside,CA. He auditioned speakers every time I went over to his house. I have owned reference Polks (made by mathew), Maggies, Speaker Craft and Von Schweikert's Home-made.


Recently, I decided to build some kit speakers. I researched until I was blue in the face. I looked at what most High-End speaker makers, of speakers in the Tens of Thousands of dollars, were using for drivers. I found SEAS to be very Poul driver. Von Schweikert and Legacy use them thru their lines. I found The ODIN kit on Madisound web-site. I researched their history and it looked impressive. They are a D'Appolite ( not sure on spelling) design, highly respected.


I took the plunge. 1100.00 for the pair including boxes. One night to assemble. Awesome copper Phase Plug drivers. I'm simply blown away. These are very sensitive speakers in small- medium package. They blow away my maggies, Mathew Polk built SDA reference floor towers.


I don't think you touch this performance in you spent 4 times the amount.

They use the same drivers you will find in $20,000 + speakers.


Please consider these if you are contemplating DYI.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

George,

If you want black, you have a lot of options: You could use the PE vinyl or real wood veneer and dye them like JL did. You can also sand them really smooth and put a couple of coats of primer, then paint them. You can also try the truck bed spray paint that I've read about. I've seen some posts about that stuff on the Parts Express board.


Seeeeee,

Those speakers that you bought are probably among some of the more expensive kits. I'm sure they sound great! At one time, I was going to try building the Thor TL speakers but decided that they were too large. My wife wanted smaller speakers for our family room. With that criteria I built a set of MBOW1s that are about $500-600 depending on the veneer.

See them here:
http://europa70.tripod.com/mbow1001.htm 


I am now surround and rear speakerless. I sold my Energy surrounds last week. I wanted to match my Audax front and center speakers. I've had the components to build Audax surrounds and rears for a couple of months now. I have a brand new HK7200 that I've used twice and now I have to get off my behind and build those surrounds.


----------



## moonhawk

Moat paint stores sell fleck-tone 2 color spray paints in a can as well, in multiple color combinations, that you can also vary with different color undercoats. They have a "granitelike" textured finish, and are easy to use.


Pretty good for hiding small surface flaws as well.


----------



## George

found an old can of black high gloss paint.


I just went for it.


Turns out even the high gloss did what i wanted.


you barly see the speakers next to my screen.


Oh how I wish I could put the time in and get the final

finishes you guys got, but for my HT you'll never see the speakers.


Thanks for all of the input.


I will more than likely cover the speakers next to the screen with Black

velvet. That stuff traps all light, I framed my DIY screen with it.


later


----------



## Wombat2

I have just inherited (read they were being thrown out by my sister) a pair of Pioneer stereo speakers "that crackled" These are 3 way 3 cubit foot enclosures. The 12 inch drivers don't have any rubber surround left as it has all turned to powder. I can repair that no worries but I want to improve the overall enclosure. They are built out of 1/2" chip board and not stuffed. The 3 drivers are evenly centred on the front baffle and just look odd. Until I repair the bass driver I can't measure the T/S parameters but I think I will rebuild a new vented enclosure rather then the poorly sealed box at present.


I'm looking for design ideas. Anyone have or know of plans for a 3-way vented enclosure with a 12" bass driver?


David L


----------



## usabrian

Has anybody tried a gloss-piano black finish on any of their speakers? I am currently building the Adire Kit 281 and LCC Center speaker and am using some very high quality Rosewood veneer for the sides with a radius along the left and right with a wavy, figured Maple front for contrast and would like to just put a gloss piano black top and bottom on the speakers. I want the Rosewood and Maple to be natural but with a high shine. Similar sheen to Rocket I guess. The only problem is the Adire woofers are not all that pretty.


Brian


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by usabrian_
> *Has anybody tried a gloss-piano black finish on any of their speakers?*



To achieve that, you just about need to paint them in the same manner as you would a car with black paint. With smooth sanding, multiple coats of black paint, and possibly a few coats of clear, followed by buffing out the finish. You must have perfect surface preparations, as the smallest of flaws will show up in any high gloss black finish. Another option to consider, although it would show on all the edges, would be to use a high gloss black Formica counter-top material.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Brian,

There is at least one project submitted to the Parts Express project section of their forum about high gloss finishes.
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/index.html


----------



## Johnla

Yeah, that would be this one. And like I mentioned before, the prep work and the methods of sanding sealing and applying the paint itself. Comes very close to what you have to do, when painting a car.

http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...daytonmtm.html 


" About Piano Finish

You can put a really nice finish on MDF. Here is a description of the procedure I used for obtaining a high gloss black piano finish.


I must warn you that in order to obtain a really nice, gloss black, painted finish, you will have to spent quite a bit of time and effort. The actual time in applying the spray paint is nothing compared to the time it takes to prep the surface for the paint. A satin black finish is more forgiving because it doesn't show all the mistakes. I used a professional spray gun and compressor to paint my speakers but I have heard that a few cans of Krylon brand spray paint does a pretty good job. I use Sherman Williams gloss black "All Surface" Oil based enamel (NOT latex enamel) and their quick drying oil based sanding sealer.


To finish MDF, you will have to sand the entire surface with 220 grit paper then fill all holes and joinery lines with wood filler. The trick is not to over do it with the wood filler. All you need to do is press the wood filler into the cracks and holes to fill them. You do not need to apply a big clump of filler over the things you are trying to cover, Then you will need to sand those holes and joint lines starting with 150 grit and working you way down to 400 grit paper with an orbital sander starting from the center of the panel working your way out past the edge of the panel. If you do it correctly, you will not feel a bump when running your finger over the surface. Sanding is the most critical step. Everything has to be perfectly smooth! Remember this: If you can feel it- you will see it.


The next step, you will need to apply at least 4-6 coats of sanding sealer to the entire surface. The idea is to build up many coats of sealer so you can sand the surface down to very smooth. If you can spray it on then apply those 4-5 coats right on top of each other without sanding in between. If you are applying the sanding sealer by brush you have to make sure you do not get any lumps or brush hairs stuck to the surface and you may have to lightly sand in between coats. If you are routing the edges of the boxes make sure you put several extra coats on the routed edges to seal the edges.


After you have applied your 4-6 coats of sanding sealer you will need to sand the entire surface BY HAND using a hand sanding block starting with 300 grit and working your way down to 400 and up to 600 grit if you really want a good finish. When you have the entire surface perfectly smooth, then you will need to clean the sanded surface with a damp cloth if you used oil based sealer. (Mineral spirits may goober up the surface on oil based sealers). After you clean the surface you will then have to use tack cloth to remove any dust.


Now you are ready to paint the boxes!! You will need to apply 3-4 coats of paint. The first one should be so light that you should be able to see the unpainted MDF under it. Wait 30 minutes and apply 2-3 more light coats while waiting 30 minutes in between each coat. The trick is to apply several thin coats to keep the paint from running. The best thing is to practice on some prepared MDF surfaces BEFORE you paint the real speakers. You will get a few dust bumps from dust settling on the surface while your painting. I constructed a small paint booth out of plastic sheeting, fans and furnace filters. It worked fine and I did not have any dust bumps.


I hope I haven't scared you off with the complexity of applying a piano finish to MDF. It was a lot of work but it was very much worth it."



And a alternate, and somewhat "shortcut" version of doing it. Is on the bottom part of the page from this project.

http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/so1.html 



And on this project, the builder decided to go with a gloss laminate,

http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/so1.html 


"Cabinet Finish


The finish on the cabinets is a Wilsonart gloss black laminate. The laminate is available in custom sized sheets that can be special ordered at most major building and cabinet supply shops. I ordered a batch from Home Depot, which took several weeks to arrive, but was pretty nice. I also ordered some from a local kitchen supply shop, which also took about the same amount of time. The cost from both sources was roughly the same, about $3.00 a square foot. As you can imagine, there is a decent chunk of change sunk into the finish on these cabinets.


The laminate is applied very simply with contact cement directly onto bare MDF. I applied the laminate before making any cutouts for drivers or terminals. The Wilsonart was cut to size, roughly 1/2" oversize to allow some room for error. Remember, since you are applying this with contact cement, once you start to place your laminate onto the cabinets, if you are off by a fraction of a degree in alignment you could be in trouble. I used a short-knap foam paint roller to apply the contact cement to both surfaces, and it worked quite well. I found that it was important to use a few applications along any MDF end grain, as it tended to soak up all of the adhesive very quickly. This process was very fast and I was able to do one side approximately every 1/2 hour or so. Needless to say I had several cabinets going at once, as this would still take a while going one side at a time. After applying the laminate, I gently rolled the surface with a heavy duty 3" rubber roller. This seemed to do the trick to get some good adhesion between the layers.


Once the laminate was secured on one face, the edges were trimmed with a flush trimming bit. From there, the next side was glued and affixed, going over the adjoining edges with a flush trim bit as needed. I proceeded from the sides, to the top and bottom, to the front and back. After all portions of the cabinet were covered, the edges were neatened up with a 27 degree or so laminate beveling bit. This is great because it removes all jagged edges and removes any possibility of snagging an edge on carpet or clothing. The exposed ends of the laminate were given a once-over with a black permanent marker to help darken the seam up. While the seam is still visible, as long as the joint is clean and tight, it still looks very good.


The gloss laminate is very scratch resistant and will withstand most abrasions other than those with sharp metal or stone objects. It does pick up fingerprints very easily, but these can be cleaned very effectively with Windex and a paper towel."


----------



## BigguyZ

OK- I've finally finished reading this post after spending a large majority of my free time reading this post! It's late, but I have a few questions that for me remain unanswered:


I think for the money and the initial application, the Audax kit would be ideal. Now I won't have the $$ to buy the components for a while, but I want to get all of the TOOLS together now, and possibly start building teh boxes so that in a month and a half when I can afford to drop $600-$800 for the set (or begin to dump that much) I'll have much of the process completed. So, with that in mind I'd like to know what is minimal and recomended for the entire kit. As a base line for me, what I have is as follows:

-an old fixed base Craftsman Router (I don't think it's variable speed, and I don't know what size shanks it takes- but I only have the collet my dad had on it when he brought it from home)

-an old Black and Decker circular saw

-a 1/4 sheet sander

-a random orbit sander (if I can find the darn thing)

-12v cordless drill (ryobi)

-Craftsman Jigsaw (scroll and orbital)

-other gerneral common tools.


Now, if indeed I should buy more/ better tools I don't mind that- but I can't afford this project if it includes $300+ in additional costs (with the tools and bits/blades). If that's really unreasonable- I'll have to change my time table is all, since I can at least have those tools for the rest of my life. Also, if you recomend different/ better tools, what should I look for? Should I go to HD and buy new? Or can you get decent deals on ebay? Can a super budget tool that meets your requirements work OK (I've seen plunge routers sell for about $50 after shipping on ebay)? Should I look at pawn shops (that's where I got my jigsaw for $15)? I figure that the tools are the REAL place to start when looking at a project of this size, so any help is appreciated!


PS- you guys have done some incredible work here. Corny yes, but true also. JL- your workmanship has been excellent. JSalk- your finished are truly spectacular. Jeff Hovis- I think I'm going to follow in your footsteps and eventually build the MBOW1 as well.... but the Audax will alllow me to start cheaply for the entire system.


----------



## BigguyZ

I'm going to one of those annoying people who have two posts in a row-


A question that I've kept thinking about the Audax center- we all know by now that we should round the fron baffle to reduce diffraction. However, on the center is it better to round the vertical edges, or the horizontal edges like JL did? I think I like the horizontal rounding better, but what's more sonically correct?


Another construction question- if I wanted to add a brace to the center, should I calculate the rough volume of the brace and then adjust for the depth to compensate? And for a double layer of 3/4" MDF on the fron and back, such as JL did, do you just add the second layer to the front baffle and nothing more? Do you cut the two pieces, including the driver cutouts, and then glue. Or do you glue the two layers and then do the cutouts? Most importantly- how do you do the joints? How do you accurately line the edges up for glueing? Do you glue just one piece at a time, or the whole thing?


And finally- what's a good kit arouns $300 that is tight, and low, but doesn't need to be too loud. I like in an apt, but would like the benefit of hearing those low passages on sound tracks and music. When quoteing $300, I'm thinking of the components alone... But I think a box design would work better for my living room/ "theater" (I only have a 27" tv). Any reccomendations? Anything that's a proven design, like the audax, but for subs? I wouldn't mind building a really tough enclosure with many braces. I could do it as practice...


Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I'm eager to get started on this project- even if it's just getting the tools needed and finalizing the dimensions/ cuts.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Buy lots of braces! If you have a Harbor Freight Tools store around, go there and buy them. Their braces are so much less expensive and they are pretty good. In MN, you probably have Northern Tools which is a little more expensive but less than you'll pay at HD. Another power tool that is useful for building cabinets is a table saw but you're getting into more money and for most of the Audax cabinets, you can go to HD and buy the 12x48 or 12x96 MDF. They also sell 16x48 MDF. You can make a saw guide for the circular saw and skip the table saw. A biscuit joiner is also nice and a good one can be purchased at HD for $99.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *
> 
> -an old fixed base Craftsman Router (I don't think it's variable speed, and I don't know what size shanks it takes- but I only have the collet my dad had on it when he brought it from home)
> 
> -an old Black and Decker circular saw
> 
> -a 1/4 sheet sander
> 
> -a random orbit sander (if I can find the darn thing)
> 
> -12v cordless drill (ryobi)
> 
> -Craftsman Jigsaw (scroll and orbital)
> 
> -other gerneral common tools.
> 
> *


----------



## Jeff Hovis

The center channel Audax speaker has a sub enclosure in it that makes a great brace. That's all I used and I didn't see the need for another. I'm not sure what the others did.


As for rounding the edges, I rounded the horizontal, upper/lower edges of the center and the vertical edges of all others. You also asked about joints and lining them up for glue. That's where the braces come in and a biscuit cutter makes life really easy.


I also doubled my baffles to 1.5". I based my internal dimensions on the front and rear baffle being the inside butt pieces and then glued the outer piece, which is wider to it. I prefit the pieces and held them together with braces. Then after the bonded baffles dried, I cut the holes...then I glued the cabinet together.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Oh, one other thing. When you start buying the xover components, don't go overboard and spend hundreds of $$ on copper foil inductors and expensive caps. These speakers were designed for HT and with 18-18ga inductors and less expensive caps. If you need a low DCR inductor for a woofer, buy an iron core for that section. I upgraded some things on the original speakers and on the rear channels, I used all Dayton 16/18ga inductors and Dayton poly caps. It doesn't make sense to me to buy $20+ inductors for $20 woofers. I started out as a complete neophyte but I'v hung around this forum, diyaudio.com, the PE forum and the MAD forum and I've learned a lot. As you mentioned earlier, I built the MBOW1 and yes, I did upgrade the xover parts because those are for my 2-channel system only. Even Dennis Murphy didn't recommend using some of the more expensive parts, but I did it anyway.


----------



## J. L.

BigguyZ,


A circular saw and a clamped straight edge were what I used for most of my cuts. As described previously, I made the cuts 1/8th or so too large, then clamped a second board with factory cut corner to the one i was cutting and then used a flush trimming router bit to make them even. Then, after cutting the two sides for a given enclosure, I clamped them to each other and again made sure they matched. By doing it that way, I was able to get good fitting and square joints without the use of a table saw.


When doubling the front and rear panels, I first assembled the cabinet with a single thickness, cut the required hole for the driver, then glued on a second layer of MDF, let it dry, then used a roller guided flush trimming bit to cut the opening in the outer layer of MDF to match the inner layer. Lastly, I trimmed the added layer even with the original layer of MDF using a roller bearing flush trimming bit in my router.


Joe L.


----------



## George

I would really study the drawing and find all of the mistakes and fix them.


I would make my own detail constructions drawing


I would then make Master templates of the front baffles for the fronts and surrounds. These templates would have the speaker outside dia cut out of the template. If you have a drill press, go and buy a circle cutter!!!!!


I would double up on the front baffles


I would use the templates to route out the rabbit or landing plane for the speakers.


I would combine the 3/4 front baffle with 1/2 MDF (gluing) and cut the speaker pass through hole out later.


I would router a rabbit on the reverse outer side. this would provide a rim

for me to attach the top/bottom/sides 3/4MDF during box construction.



I would also double up on the back baffle, but cut the speaker termal cut hole out of the outside 3/4 MDF 1st.


1st secure the front/sides/top /bottom baffles 1st and dry fit the back baffle last. This will allow you insert the foam on the inside walls the easiest. You should also be able to attach you x/o on the back baffle and test the enclosure and x/o prior to final sealing up the box.


I would sloder long speakers wires to the speakers 1st and then later to the o/x during final installation. Mess up a few things trying the other way around.


Over size the front and rear 3/4 mdf baffles so you and flush router them

perfect flat to the sides and top/bottom baffles.


I used brad nails and glue for fast assembly.


Dry fit speakers only, then remove and make yourself finish the speaker enclosure. I didn't and got lazy and never finish mine, just painted them back. If you fire up the speakers, you wont brake the down for finishing.



Tools

Table saw a must ( 100 -$500) unless you really trust home depot

Router and t bits ($150)

Drill ($80)

Belt sander ($100-$300)

Drill press ($350) nice to have but not required

To do a set of speakers a one time

Clamps 8 X 24' Harbor freight (8X$3.50~$30)

Clamps 8X 12' " ($24)

Glue ($15)

Sloder and Iron ($24)

Finishing materials????????


I already had this stuff so no big deal for me I guess.


----------



## George

someone ask about the audax system in their apartment.


I must say I never really got a good vision of how big these puppies were.


They are also very loud, so be careful.


I have a 14' by 24' HT and they will rock it.

My walls are double dry walled with thich sound block in the wall enclosures, and I can still make things jump in other places in the house.

Most of this is do to the sub, but becare


I hate for you to lose for home because for future love for the Audax system.


JL we were posting at the exact time, wow what timing. I heard the email alert just as I hit submitt post.


Wow


----------



## BigguyZ

About the router- is a fixed base router ok, or should I bother to get a plunge router? For the cutouts I figure I'll get the jasper jig locally or at Parts Express (actually, you should check out amazon of all places. They have bits, and accessories at decent prices).


If I don't need a plunge router is looks like I'll just need the straight edge for the saw and the blades/bits.... Another question- for the router I have now, if the collet is for 1/4" shanks, can you easily get collets for 1/2"? The 3/4" roundover bits I've seen are all 1/2" shanks... I may start some of the building in a week or so- I just can't stand waiting.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

A plunge router is the only way to go. I bought the small Jasper jig and made my own large circle jig. http://europa70.tripod.com/diy_sonosub003.htm


----------



## BigguyZ

I don't mean to push the question, but WHY is a plunge router the only way to go??


And the question is still unanswered about why you'd need to go from a $30 router to a $100 router- what's the real difference? Power, or accuracy as well? I don't care THAT much about power, but would hate to have the thing make crappy cuts.


And when people say braces are a must, what precisely are you referring to? After JL's post, I get how to cut the pieces, but actual assemble is not completely clear. And I'm assuming they don't walk you through it in the Audax kit deisigns.


4th edit- and what about being able to accept multiple shanks? is it one collet fits all? Or will a router have either 1/4" or 1/2"? Or am I just too ignorant at this time to begin thinking about this stuff?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Bigguyz,

I meant clamps, not braces. You'll need lots of clamps to hold all those cabinet sections together.


As for the plunge router, I think it is necessary for cutting a hole through a piece of 3/4" , 1" or 1.5" MDF. I set mine to a depth, make a circuit around the cutout and then progressively set it deeper and deeper until it is through. For trimming edges, you don't need that. I have a 2hp variable speed 1/2" plunge router that came with an isert for smaller shanks. The one thing I wish mine had is a shopvac connection. MDF dust gets on EVERYTHING!


----------



## J. L.

Although I have a plunge router, I never used that feature when making the cutouts for the drivers. It was fairly easy to adjust the bit depth and then tilt and slowly lower the router onto the MDF. If you are trying to save a few bucks, it is a feature you can do without.


Also... I looked at the roundover bits I was using and found you were right. It was a 1/2 inch radius bit that I used to round over my enclosures. (I only have a 1/4 inch collet on my router. I had picked up a set of roundover bits at the local Harbor Freight tool store and thought the largest was 3/4. Oh well, it still looks and sounds great even if not exactly according to the original plan.)


Joe L.


----------



## WGubbe




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by George_
> *someone ask about the audax system in their apartment.
> 
> 
> I must say I never really got a good vision of how big these puppies were.
> 
> 
> They are also very loud, so be careful.
> 
> 
> I have a 14' by 24' HT and they will rock it.
> 
> My walls are double dry walled with thich sound block in the wall enclosures, and I can still make things jump in other places in the house.
> 
> Most of this is do to the sub, but becare
> 
> 
> *



George,

I ,too, am thinking about building the Audax system. One of the concerns that I have (my wife as well) is the physical size of the speakers in our planned HT and the question of optimum playing volume. Do these speakers require a very loud volume to sound good? We normally don't listen at high volume except sometimes with music.

I would appreciate any comments you might have on this.


Bill


----------



## George

Well I'm just figuring out the real differences between movie sound and music.


For movies, the speakers play very well at low volumes. I guess the way they mix movie sound tracks has all of the real bass going to the sub.

So the center channel speaker is the most important for movies. Thats why you have an extra mid speaker to help bring out the human voices in movies. So 90% of the time the sound is coming out of the center speaker with 10% surround & Sub actions. For an apartment the Audax is cool for movies. If things get to loud, you will only have to turn down the sub.



Now for music, things change a bit. To get all of the texture in music, you will need to turn the audax up a bit. louder than you would listen to movies. For my system I need more volume in the 7 speakers before they blend nicely with the power sub. The final result may be louder than you want. The audax sound great a low volumes. but if you really want to get lost in the music, they need to be turn up a bit.


I like jazz and I'm in a sound proofed HT so only the bass boom gets out of the room.


Take a piece of cardboard and cut out the front baffle dimesions for the fronts and center. Find a way to stand them up in the room you want.

You will begin to get a feel for their size.


With all this said, knowing what i know now.


I would build the audax system again.

You can't find a better deal for 7 speakers to play with this quality for less than $2,000 retail.


I go into HIFI store to demo their speakers and laugh all the way home when I think about how they want $2,000 plus for comericial speakers that don't sound as good as the audax at home.


Build them and be happy son


hope this helps


----------



## George

Please read and follow this advise


Take a week plus looking at the audax plans and figure how you would construct them with the tools you have now.


You must way out the hardship building of with the tools you have vs. the ones that we are suggesting that you get.


The hardest part of the project is figuring how to secure 5/6 of the panels together long enough for the glue to set. You don't secure one of the panels so you can add the cross overs later and check them before sealing the box.


I had a few problems which I had to fix and I'm glad I didn't seal the box before finding them.


I suggest building a test box out of cheap wood.

If you do this, you will see how hard it is to get those panels to line up

end to end for clamping.


Next try cutting holes in the test box. I'm sure you will also find out we have made some of the suggestion we've made.


To answer your tool questions

a 1/2" collet is required for large router bits used to cut into hard woods.

The MDF is soft like paper, so a 1/4 will do, but must of your large bit will only come in 1/2 because of this reason.


A plunge router will give you more options when you are building something. Trust me, regardless of how much you plan, you will still screw something up and will need options to fix it. Thats when good tools (plunge router) comes into play.


I'll stop now in case I'm boring you guys


----------



## Jeff Hovis

If you're building the Audax for an apartment, I have to go back to the size thing. They are not small and if you're using a TV, and plan to place the speaker on top, be very aware of the size and the weight. My center channel and stand weigh well over 100-lbs as do my fronts. Just make sure you have enough power to drive all 5-7 speakers.


----------



## usabrian

Harbor Freight is great for "disposable" tools. They have some cheap plunge routers and miter saws, etc. They will work fine for a few years but the motors are typically weak and will burn out long term. For router bits I like MLCS. Both these sites can be found online easily.


Oh and one last thing...get a biscuit joiner. I really love this thing. Makes putting boxes together and lining up wood/mdf a snap.


Brian


----------



## Johnla

As nice as a biscuit joiner is to have, it's also a unnecessary luxury item for someone that's just starting out.


----------



## BigguyZ

So biscuit joiners can make a good bond, but that STILL doesn't answer my question about how they are aligned and if you only do two boards at a time, or if you glue the etinre thing in one go. From the picks, it looks like people glue the whole box and clamp the entire box. One step and that's it. But how do you manage to make sure the edges are (reasonably) flush? Just align them by sight? Maybe I need to reread the thread- did I miss something? I need to get my future work space in order, but I'd like to possible start cutting the enclosures and even assembling them next weekend.


----------



## Johnla

A lot of people are assembling and gluing up the boxes so they are "square" but not worrying a lot about the edges, as they have allowed a slight amount of "extra" for a overhang. That they then trim off flush after all the glue drys, with a flush trim bit in their router. Which will then leave you with a perfectly flush corner.

http://www.woodline.com/scripts/prod...?idcategory=44 

http://www.woodline.com/scripts/prod...?idcategory=51


----------



## usabrian




> Quote:
> From the picks, it looks like people glue the whole box and clamp the entire box. One step and that's it. But how do you manage to make sure the edges are (reasonably) flush? Just align them by sight? Maybe I need to reread the thread- did I miss something?



This is where the biscuits become a necessity and not a luxury, in my opinion. (and you can get a cheap joiner for about $59 at HD). I glued up two faces at a time with an internal brace in the middle, which keeps your pieces perfectly square.


Brian


----------



## J. L.

Johnla,

I used that exact method you described when building my Audax HT speaker enclosures. In fact, I went through two of the bits you illustrated, as the first one got pretty dull part way through the set of 5 speaker enclosures and 4 stands I constructed.


I took the following photo during the construction of my Left/Right speaker enclosures. You can clearly see the overhang of the front and back panels as described by Johnla. Soon after this picture was taken I trimmed the overhang using exactly the type of flush trimming bit Johnla described.


----------



## Johnla

usabrian.


As I said before, even though I myself have one. And I'm possibly one of the biggest tool "freaks" you may ever meet. A biscuit joiner is still more of a luxury than a necessity. And unless you have a method of sawing the MDF to where it is all perfectly square in all 4 edges, such as a accurately set up table saw and knowing how to use it. Because without that, they will not help you that much, over using router and a flush trimming bit. Because the biscuit are worthless in this respect without perfectly and accurately cut pieces to assemble, if you are trying to do it without having flush trim them later after glue up. Plus the fact BigguyZ originally said, that he is trying to do this without having to buy a complete set of new woodworking tools, and buying just what he really needs. And many here, have built these Audax speaker systems using a basic circular saw and a router, and just very few other basic power tools. After all, having a CNC cutting and routing system would be what some people could call a necessity also. But unless you are in business and running a production line, it's really not needed or cost effective. And although it would be fun to have such a setup, it would be a waste of money to buy such things, to just to build one set of speaker enclosures.


----------



## usabrian




> Quote:
> Plus the fact BigguyZ originally said, that he is trying to do this without having to buy a complete set of new woodworking tools, and buying just what he really needs.



Come on now, what is the fun in that?


Oh and that is what they all say: "I'll build some speakers for $500 that will beat speakers costing $2,500." A table saw, dust system, miter saw, biscuit joiner, belt sander, router, bits, expensive veneer and numerous trips to home depot later...or was that just me?


Brian


----------



## WGubbe

USABRIAN


So what you are saying is that if you are not already equiped with all the tools that it is not cost efficient to roll your own rather than buy commercial? Could be! But what about quality for the money spent?

I am thinking of building the Audax system and I am not very well equiped at all, should I do it? Buy the tools? I understand though from all the posts here that I will have a very good system. Hard decision to make.



Bill


----------



## Johnla

It's like anything else, there is a certain minimum of tools you will really need to do it. And then from those tools, you can easily go way beyond just what you need, and all the way up to the tools that can equal or surpass a full blown woodworking shop. Which of course would be nice to have and make certain procedures easier to do, but at a higher cost as well. Now if in the future you will have needs for some of the more *luxury* type tools, then buying them might be worthwhile. Or for people like me, you might buy them anyway, even if you know they may only be used one time. Everyone has to decide how much they want to spend, and how they wish to do it. As there is more than just one way, and one set of tools, that can be used to end up with a finished set of speakers. And regardless of which way chosen as far as tools used, if they are done right. They will all sound just as good as another set made with either more tools or less tools, than the ones you may have used.


----------



## BigguyZ

Hey- I didn't mean to start a big debate over it all...


So I take it by JL and Johnla's posts that when you glue the whole box together (sans one side), you aren't getting a 100% super-duper accurate box? One side might be like 1/8" (or whatever) in too far, then you just flush trim the whole thing? (the flush trim part I understand)


Also, the router I have is a fixed base Black and Decker 1/4" collet router. Would this suffice, or should I really upgrade? I went to Harbour Freight Tools today and dumped $60+ on clamps, organizational supplies (so I have a place to work in), and a few other things. All in all I got 4 24" bar clamps, 4 12" bar clamps, and 4 3" mitre camps (I figured they'd be good for corners). Then I got a set of clamps at Menards that has 2 18" quick release quick-grip-type clamps. So I think I have enough friggin' clamps. I also bought a straight edge for the circular saw, so I can make accurate straight cuts. So now all I think I need to get is a decent blade for the saw, router bits, maybe a new router, and the circle jig (I'm too lazy to build my own, and you can the the combo for $50). Then maybe after that I'll be able to afford the drivers a month or two down the road


----------



## George

There are only three things to really to worry about


1) the most important thing about the speaker enclosure is the volume of air trapped inside. this means two things.

A) get the inside dimension or volume correct and

B) the box needs to be sealed or air tight assuming no vent port.


The outside dimensions and edges are only important when you are trying

to finish the outside of the speaker enclosure to make it look professional.

This is the third thing. In my case all of my speakers could be hidden or they have low visiablity in my HT.


so I got lazy, and painted three speakers black and hid the others in their raw MDF with excess glue and some brad nails showing.


So how much you should spend on tools really boils down to how can

you insure that the internal volume is correct with good butt glue bonds with no air leaks and how do you want the final finished outsides to look.


You'll never know till you try it, but cubing up the speaker box is simple,

yet very furstrating till you get it cube. It will never be perfect, thus

you will need to recovery later, this is when the extra tools come into play.


I can't tell you how many tools I purchased after I screwed something up and had to go back to HD to get the tool I was too cheap to buy the 1st time.


Just like life, its something you got to live and learn your way.........


----------



## George

I think the cross over information in the kit is really lacking.


I could build the cross overs on the recommended board sizes.


The cross over components are HUGE.


That why I wouldn't recommend sealing the box ( all 6 sides ) until you buld your cross overs and make sure you can both

A) pass the cross over through the speaker openings on the front baffle and

B) secure or unsecure them from reaching through the speaker openings.


Trust my BigguyZ, don't seal that box ( leave one side not glued) until you do a dry run with the cross over you make.


later


----------



## Johnla

One of the best places I have found to get good quality router bits, and for some real affordable prices!

Is at woodbits.com/woodline.com 

Roundover bits that cost upward of $40 or more at other sources, are only in the $20 to $26 range here. And 1/4" diameter spiral upcut and downcut bits are only $12 (Note: these work perfect with the Jasper circle cutting jigs). And the flush trim bits start out at $10 for both the 3 flute, and 2 flute bits.

http://www.woodbits.com/Scripts/default.asp 

http://www.woodline.com/scripts/default.asp


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I recently bought a biscuit joiner and plan to use it this week. I'll finally start on my three new surrounds since it's around 70F! I have also used the MDF overhang method and then trimmed with a roller bearing trim bit.


I agree with Brian about Harbor Freight. I have a few things from there and they are cheap in price and not the best quality. I think for the average homeowner, a lot of their tools are fine. I bought a 24-volt 1/2" drill from them two years ago and use it all the time. I also bought a 1/2" DeWalt DW235G from them. It was factory serviced and Harbor Freight sold it for $79! It was normally over $200 and will twist the arm off a bear. My first router was from them and the collet froze the first time I used it. I returned it and bought a Ryobi from HD. Other tools I have from Harbor Freight: angle grinder (works great!), bench sander (seldom used but works well), reciprocating saw (used twice and works great). I also bought a 2.5HP air compressor from them that has never let me down. Tools like my circular saw, table saw, palm sander, router, biscuit joiner and jig saw are brands like Delta, Skil, Porter Cable and Ryobi from Home Depot.


I used to have a nice Makita drill that was stolen by the electrician who finished my basement. He asked me if he could use it, then denied it when I asked him if he forgot to put it back. He also overcharged me and then didn't pay his helper who threatened me with a lien (allowable in GA). That's another story.


Newest addition: I was the recipient of an award from my company last week and I just bought a pressure washer at HD. I'll be blasting away some sidewalk mildew this weeked!


Like I said in a previous post, if you need lots of clamps, go to Harbor Freight. I'll add to that: if you want cheap tools that will be OK for the average homeowner, they're OK for some.


----------



## DLK




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *So I think I have enough friggin' clamps.*



You can never have too many clamps.


-Dan


----------



## George

If you want to glue up a set of speakers at one time then you need at least



20 clamps


Trust me, it takes atleast 10 to properly clamp one speaker box.


----------



## J. L.

George,


I've built most of my Audax speakers with as few as 4 clamps... however... I used drywall screws to hold the pieces together till the glue dried. I also used a countersink to pre-drill the MDF to prevent splitting. The clamps were used to hold the pieces in alignment while drilling with the countersink and fastened with screws. (without any glue)


Once I was happy with the fit without using any glue, I backed the screws out, applied glue, and then put the screws right back into the same holes to clamp and hold the pieces while the glue dried. Once the screws were in place, I could move the clamps to the next piece to be pre-drilled, fastened with screws, and then glued.


Now using the screws meant that I had to patch where I had countersunk them and then sand before finishing the cabinets, but the cabinets had to be sanded anyway and using wood patch was not difficult.


It was only when I got to the Audax rear channel speakers did I build the enclosure using only clamps. (I had purchased 4 more clamps) At that point, I'll echo the statement made by DLK. You can never have enough clamps.


Joe L.

*Look... Only 7 clamps*


----------



## George

1st I want to ask everyone forgiveness for my very poor typing and spelling.


I'm setting in my HT typing on a wireless keyboard.


So I really can't see the keyboard in the dark and I'm in a hurry, so I normally don't spell check. But to prove I can I will this time










JL

we are on the same page. I figured that bigguyz wanted to glue the box only without any fasteners. So I estimated 10 clamps for the full enclosure.

Less if he leaves one panel out.

It looks like I'm getting all our your detail how toos after I completed my speakers. Sounds like your way was better than mine.


In a hurry ( I never have enough time ) I glued, clamped and brad nailed

everything all at once. So I really only needed about 8 clamps at a time.


One thing all of these post prove, there are a number of ways to get the job done, depending on one's skill set and tool inventory


----------



## Drew Eckhardt




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *For the cutouts I figure I'll get the jasper jig locally or at Parts Express (actually, you should check out amazon of all places. They have bits, and accessories at decent prices).
> *



It's so easy to build circle jigs with exactly the radius you want, you might as well skip the Jasper jig. Grab a scrap of plywood, mark where you want your router bit, mark the router mounting holes, mark a few center holes, and do a little drilling. Counter sink the router attachment holes, use bevelled screws to mount the router, and you're done.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I've posted some photos of my current Audax surround project. These will go with the fronts and center channel that I built in Jan, 2003.
http://europa70.tripod.com//audax_surrounds001.htm


----------



## BigguyZ

Just a little update. I have my work area clean and organized now. I picked up one of those 2x4' panels of 3/4" MDF from HD, and am planning to begin building the boxes for the surround enclosures this upcoming weekend. I figure that I won't need the router to do most of it.


Anyways, I plan on taking some picks, even though it's going to look ugly until I get a flush trim bit.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Good luck to you both! Andrikos, earlier in this thread there is beautiful line array project. Did you see it?


----------



## WGubbe

Andrikos,

Try here. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...50#post1633150 

Check his links as well they are great.

Nice project,


Bill


----------



## BigguyZ

Well, I was going to start outright to build the boxes today. I figured I should start on the surrounds, as they will be scrutinized far less than the other 3 speakers. The problem I encountered was making an accurate, and square cut.


I was told that a circular saw+straight edge could make cuts that were both straight and accurate (and I figured squareas well). Well I made two cut on a 2'x4' panel I bought from HD. Neither cut was straight. At best, the first 6" or so were ok, but then the saw began to pull away and that was it. I thought I could just use the saw alone, but it's starting to look like JL's method of using a flush bit would be the best alternative. Anyone have any other good methods of making straight, accurate, and square cuts? Anyting short of buying a table saw, that is.


Again, thanks for the feedback. I do have several router bits being sent to me, and once it warms up I shuld be able to spend more time in the garage. (though it's the lack of proper equipment that's the main reason I didn't do anything furhter for the project.).


----------



## usabrian

Sounds like you do not have a very good circular saw or at least the blade may not be true to the metal guide. Short of a table saw (which is generally the first tool any woodworker should buy) the router method is going to be the best. Just rough cut outside a straight line and then straighten it up with a straight bit and straight edge to follow. Note it will probably take you about 15 min to do what you could do in three seconds with a table saw.


Brian


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Bigguy,

Too bad you're not close or I would cut them for you on my table saw. Like Brian said, you should probably check your blade sharpness and the alignment. I can cut a very straight line with my circular saw without a guide. One thing you have to remember is to let the saw pull itself through. Obviously, you want to start the cut straight on your line and then don't try to hold it back. Let the saw pull itself through. You can always leave 1/16-1/4" and then trim with a roller bearing trim bit. You should be able to rip through the panels for the surrounds in under 30-seconds per cut. If you can find the 12x48" MDF, that will make a huge difference for you. The other option is a jig saw. It will also be slow, but won't stir up nearly as much dust as the router will. The blades are also cheaper. You could buy a decent homeowner quality jig saw for $50-100?


----------



## BigguyZ

I don't really care about how long things take. I have time, but I don't have a couple hundred $$ for a decent table saw. Especially since I don't even have a workshop of my own (I'm squatting in my brothers garage- for the workshop). Until I go from my apt to a house, I think I'll go with the smaller tools. Anyways, if I get my flush bit from woodbits.com, then I'll try the router aproach. and if that doesn't work, I do have a decent jig saw. or maybe I can upgrade the circular saw. After all, it is pretty old. HD has soem skill saws for around $50.... But I'd rather be able to take longer and put more $$ towards the drivers and such...


----------



## Johnla

BigguyZ


Maybe you are just using the wrong kind of blade for cutting MDF. Because when you try to cut stuff with the wrong types of blades for what you are cutting, it can cause problems. Also you want to make sure the blade you have is sharp, and a carbide tipped blade. As MDF is really rough on router bits and saw blades. You should look for a carbide blade, that is a crosscut blade. As the grain direction of the wood particles and fibers in Particleboard and MDF are of a random pattern, saw blades with cross-cutting tooth forms should be used.

Also, you will find that using your jig saw for any major cuts in thick 3/4" MDF, can be very frustrating at times. So I would try to avoid using a jig saw, unless it is the only other option you have.


----------



## Teran

Speaking of clamps, I really like strap clamps. I wouldn't use them with butt joints, but then I don't use butt joints.


----------



## BigguyZ

Well I have a respirator to deal with the dust. I got by router bits today from the online store. If it's not too cold tomorrow I plan on making some sawdust. I'll let you know how things work out.


----------



## moonhawk

I make cuts on large panels regularly with a hand held circular saw which are at least as true as those with my table saw, because it is hard to handle large sheets alone.


The problem could be your cord hanging up on the edge of your workpiece, which has pulled my saw offline a couple of times, or not supporting the workpiece on BOTH sides of the cut.


Practise on scraps. Also make sure your straightedge is securely clamped, and square to your reference edge...(And that your blade is square to the saw's plate).


Have fun.


----------



## J. L.

moonhawk,


I agree with you. Unless you have a table saw like Norm Abrams that can handle a full sheet of MDF, the clamped straight edge is best most of us can do.


The only time I had a problem when using a clamped straight-edge to guide my circular saw was when I did not have the straight-edge clamped securely.


I'll tell you, if it shifts position while you are making the cut, the resulting cut is NOT going to be straight!! (I have proof of that if you really want to see it)


I used a carbide tipped blade to cut through the MDF, it might have made things a little easier than a steel blade.


Joe L.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by J. L._
> *I agree with you. Unless you have a table saw like Norm Abrams that can handle a full sheet of MDF,*



Not to mention that we very rarely, if ever. Get to see any of the mistakes that Norm may make, such when he has... Say like maybe a *brain fade* type problem, that everyone has happen at one time or another, or just a out and out screwup.... Or even just something like a normal equipment malfunction, such as a clamp moving.


----------



## moonhawk

Well, I have a full size table saw with an outfeed table setup, but I always make rough cuts first, till I get my pieces down to a more manageable size.


I use the circsaw/straightedge combo mainly when I need to crosscut first.


And almost all my screwups are when the cord, or the vac hose, hangs up on the edge, and pulls the saw off track.


BTW, there are blades available for cutting sheet goods with less tearout...they usually have many more teeth than standard blades.


----------



## BigguyZ

I think it was a combination of bed technique and the saw itself. Eitehr way, the flush bit method is SOO much easier and accurate! I started doing a few peices today, but I quickly realized I need to plan out how I'm going to put the boxes together better before hand. So tonight I plan and tomorrow I have a goal of putting the surrounds together. I'll try to get the use of my brother's camera so I can post some pics (not that this thread is lacking).


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Finished my surrounds tonight. I still need to stain them and mount them.

Now, after more than a year, I have a full set of Audax. I sold the Energy surrounds I was using a few weeks ago and I've been without surround speakers.
http://europa70.tripod.com//audax_surrounds001.htm


----------



## BigguyZ

OK- I'm looking over how to put the thing together, I take it that I should leave the front baffle unglued so I can mount everything and such. So do I make both layers of the front flush to the sides and bottom?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

BGZ,

If you look at page 8 of my surround site, you'll see how I assembled the baffles. It is two pieces of 3/4 MDF bonded togethter with wood glue. There is an inner panel and an outer panel. The inner panel fits snugly inside the speaker box while the outer panel fits flush with the outer corners. To get them lined up, I added a liberal amount of glue and placed the inner panel on top of the outer panel. I placed one or two heavy bricks on top of the inner panel for weight. Then, I placed the speaker cabinet over that assembly. It was a pretty snug fit. Since the glue was still wet, I was able to slide the cabinet around until all edges were flush with the outer baffle. I let that dry for 15-min or maybe longer and then I gently lifted the cabinet off the baffle. I actually had to shake it a little. The weight of the bricks helped. That's the hard way. The easier way is in the next paragraph.


An easier way would have been to do the same thing but without the rear baffle attached. You have a box with two sides, a top and bottom but front or rear panel attached. That way I wouldn't have needed the bricks. I built my other speaker projects that way. This time, I had already glued the rear baffle in before I thought about it. Also, I round the outer vertical edges as well as the inner speaker holes.


I permanently attach the front baffle last. That way I have a lot of room to screw in the xover boards and attach all the wires. It's not easy trying to do all that through a 6.5" speaker hole.


For attaching the veneer, I used the same method I've used for my other speaker projects (as did JL and others in this thread): Use a foam mini roller to liberally spread wood glue over one side of the cabinet at a time. Let it dry 10 minutes or so until it is starting to look glazed and is slightly tacky to the touch. Then carefully lay the veneer over that area. I then cover it with an old pillow case or something thinner than a towel and iron it on with a very HOT iron. I just keep wrapping the entire box with one piece of veneer leaving 1/2" at each end. I then trim it with an exacto knife. The top and bottom sections are obviously individual pieces that are attached with the grain runnning the same direction as the front and rear baffles. I think I have some photos of that process that I'll add.


----------



## BigguyZ

Thanks Jeff. After posting my last thread, I saw what you did and already figured I'll copy that. I probably only have enough to do one speaker now, but we'll see.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

BGZ,

I added two more photos to the site that show a little bit of the veneering method that I picked up on this thread.

jeff


----------



## BigguyZ

Jeff, am I mistaken, or did you also have a page to your projects for your center and mains? I went over the entire thread last night, but didn't find it. Did I miss it, or am I incorrect in thinking you had such a page?


Well, I started doing some real work on the speakers today. I didn't have a whole lot of MDF, and I'm a little shor right now, so I only cut the pieces for one surround. Also, as you can see in one or the pics, the top and bottom pieced were a bit too long. I didn't realize this until after I glued the sucker together. I placed a piece where the back will eventually go, and you can see it's about 1/6th higher than the side piece. I think It'll be ok, as it's the back side and I can sand it flat at the seams at least. I think I'll have a much better idea on how to do it for my next surround. Or of course by the time I get to the mains and center I'll be really ready for that.


Also there's a pic of the box clamped down. I used the large piece of MDF as the base so that I know the sides/top are on an even surface.


----------



## BigguyZ

I guess you can only attache I pic per post, here's the other two pics.


----------



## BigguyZ

and the other


----------



## Jeff Hovis

BGZ,

It's almost impossible to get your cabinets perfect. I've seen pros who intentionally leave some panels too long so they can trim them with a router.

jeff


----------



## George

bgz

looks like you're starting to have fun.


I think you confirm one of my early suggestions

"take time to study how to attack this project"


JL

clamped his enclosures then secured them secured them with screws.

Then he was able to unclamp and test his speakers.


Once everything works, was able to glue and screw for final assembly.



I did this on my last set of rear surrounds and it was far easilier than clamping and brad nailing things.



Please make sure the speakers work fine before final assembly.


I screwed up twice good thing I could correct without destroying speaker box.


Both times I didn't have the tweeters working, they weren't hooked up.


later


----------



## usabrian




> Quote:
> I just keep wrapping the entire box with one piece of veneer leaving 1/2" at each end. I then trim it with an exacto knife.



FYI, the ability to do this depends greatly on the type of wood you are using and whether it is backed or not. I use only raw wood veneer such as figured Maples and Rosewood and have found that you can not often succesfully do that. A veneer saw is best, with a router and flush bit coming in second.


Also, I agree the dry glue method of attaching veneer is awesome. I use it for raw wood veneers with a slight twist. I apply the glue to the piece and the back of the wood and let it dry and then apply it with an iron. You have to spray the other side of the veneer with water to prevent it from warping. With this method and a steam iron you can apply any veneer around a tight radius.


Brian


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I agree with Brian...I've only used paper backed veneer and it has been no problem.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by usabrian_
> *FYI, the ability to do this depends greatly on the type of wood you are using and whether it is backed or not. I use only raw wood veneer such as figured Maples and Rosewood and have found that you can not often succesfully do that. A veneer saw is best, with a router and flush bit coming in second.
> 
> 
> Also, I agree the dry glue method of attaching veneer is awesome. I use it for raw wood veneers with a slight twist. I apply the glue to the piece and the back of the wood and let it dry and then apply it with an iron. You have to spray the other side of the veneer with water to prevent it from warping. With this method and a steam iron you can apply any veneer around a tight radius.
> 
> 
> Brian*


----------



## BigguyZ

OK- I have a lot of time where I work to read/ do nothing/ stare blankly at the wall/ etc. So, for the last two days I've been planning the fronts and center speaker building process. I think I have a good plan of attack now. I just have a few general questions.


1) I know that all of the front baffles are being made with 2 layers of 3/4" MDF, as well as the read panel for the center chanel. But what about the rear panel for the mains? Maybe I'm just forgeting, but have you guys been doubleing up on the rear of the L/R speakers as well?


2) Some people have added a brace in the center coming off of the sub enclosure. If I do this, should I simply extend the depth of the speaker 1/8"-1/4"? Or something like that? Or will the change in volume be negligable, and uncessasary to compensate for?


3)Lastly, I'm also designing some stands. What hight should the main speakers be at? For instance, should the tweeter be at ear level, or the bottom woofer, or top woofer, or whatever? Also, should the base of the stand be flush the the base of the speaker to reduce diffraction, or does it not matter? If the stand has a "lip" to it, will it change anything other than the athsetics?


This Thursday I should get a lot of progress done. Tomorrow at work I'll plan the best way to use the boards- which reminds me:

4)Should all HDs have the 12x48" shelving? And where exaclty is it? I've only found the 2'x4' panels.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

BGZ,

You probably saw on my sites that I made all front baffles double thick. I didn't add any additional bracing. I figured the sub enclosure inside the center added enough structural support as did the internal baffles in the left and right.


If you want an extra brace, you could simply use 3/4" dowels and not have to really add any extra internal space.


I built my stands to raise the tweeters to ear level. Based on our seating, that was approx 40"


Not all HD stores will have the 12x48 MDF. I have two within 5 miles of my home. Only one stocks the 12x48 MDF (the man store as I call it). The other is one of their new smaller stores (woman stores as I call them). I also live in suburban Atlanta which is the home of HD and a HD store is never far away. If you ask you local store to get them for you, they will.

jeff


----------



## BigguyZ

Thanks Jeff. I've already planned to double up on the front baffles for all the speakers, I just wasn't sure about the rear baffle for the mains. But I checked your site and saw that indeed the read walls for the fronts are doubled up as well. Tomorrow I get some real work done! I have a game plan- I'll just need to pick up some MDF. Hopefully they'll have the 12x48 stuff. I maped out how I'll cut the panels for surround #2 on a basis for a 12x48.


When you talk about the stands, you mean the tweeters were at 40", or the stands were? I actually got into designing the stands, and hope to put my individuality into that aspect of the project. I was thinking I like the look of floorstanders better, but I think my stands'll look pretty nifty too.


Now I just hope I have a Man HD around me (I _DO_ live in Minneapolis after all, it shuouldn't be that hard).


PS- I decided to bite the bullit and get a Ryobi 1/2" plunge router from HD sometime this weekend or next week. I'm going to end up spending more on tools/ bits than I'd wanted to, but who knows- maybe I'll actually use them down the road. What else can you use a router for??? Either way, I'd feel more comfortable using that than a cheap model from Harbor freight or ebay.


----------



## Calabs

I've only gotten past the first 5-6 pages so far. Lots more to read. I must say that there's some nice projects on these pages. Great work everyone!


Ralph Calabria

Secrets' DIY Editor
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/maste..._projects.html


----------



## selmerakt

I've had a number of people recommend that I "fuse" my Audax speakers to protect them... Has anyone done this? what value fuse should I use?


I would also like to do this for the sub I'm building. (15" 4ohm, with a 1,200w DBX amp)


Not sure if it makes a difference, but I'm currently powering the Audax speakers with an Onkyo SR500 (65w/channel @8ohms, 80w/channel @6ohms)

This brings up another question, how much power can the Audax DIY speakers safely handle?


Thanks!

(I just ordered the crossover components for the Front L/R speakers last night, so I should have all 3 front speakers up and running soon!)










-aaron


----------



## Jeff Hovis

BGZ,

Yes, I built my stands to position the tweeters at ear level.


Aaron,

My speakers are not fused.


----------



## Rop

After staring a sheet of MDF in the face for several weeks I finally got around to making sawdust today. I had Home Depot cut a 4x8 sheet in half when I bought it, and used one of 'm to set out all the panels for one of the Audax fronts. Then clamped both sheets on top of each other and used an 18 Volt cordless circular saw to rough-cut the panels (added 1/4" to the sides, except for factory edges that I used as much as I could). So, one cut does both fronts at the same time. I used the carbide tipped combination blade that came with the saw when I bought it (ie. between a rip and a cross-cut blade), it cut the 1 1/2" MDF like a hot knife through butter. No problem at all.


I have to say I'm somewhat amazed by the amount of wood, and its weight, that goes into two fronts (I doubled up the front and back panels).


Next I'll be spending some serious quality time with my router to precision-cut the edges. It's a lot of edges, it's going to be a lot of time. My initial plan was to clamp two panels together and shape both at the same time. After measuring the size of my router bits (the cutting edge is 1") that went out the window. I think I'll shape one panel using a straight-edge, then use that as a template, with a roller-bearing bit to shape the other similar sized panels.


To be continued...


-Rob-


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Rob, if I recall correctly, the fronts will weigh around 40lbs each. The center is 50lbs. Even the surrounds are pretty heavy.


----------



## BigguyZ

Ok- I did some more work today on my day off. I haev no trouble when it comes to knowing how to make the edges and how to "cut" a precise piece. But aside from the time factor (it does take forever to do it my way, or so it's seeming), my flush trim bit is already seeming to be dull!! I'm not even through the surrounds yet!


I think one reason it at first, I would make the entire cut with teh flush trim. It took less time because I didn't have to switch between the circular saw and the router, but man was that stupid! Instead of cutting through a thickness of 1/8" or even 1/4", I was having the bit cut through the entire diameter of the bit. So- I think I'm going to order at least 2, if not 3 more trim bits, and I'll also try to cut the peices closer before I trim them.


I got a 12 peice router set from Harbor freight, which I'll barely use. I figured the $24 is worth it just for the 3/8" roundover, which I'll use for the ports, and the roundnose which I'll use for the stands for detail work. I was planing on using MDF for the stand material as well, but I want to add accents like grooves (thus the roundnose), but can you do that kind of cutting and detailing with MDF? I've never tried, but I don't think a test run could hurt. This weekend will be pretty slow, as I don't want to work too much on the mains or center until I have a new sharp bit. The bit I have now is leaving the edges a little rough. I do think I have my technique down though. I might do a little walk through for those who have not built their speakers yet.


----------



## moonhawk

BigguyZ


The less you have to trim with the router, the better. About a 1/16th is good. Your bit will last longer.


Also, learn to find the right rate of feed for a smooth cut that won't "chatter."


If you do that kind of cutting a lot, some kind of router table is great.


----------



## Calabs

Does anyone on this thread have the Audax A652?

i'm curious to see if anyone has done a side by side comparison of the A652 and the HT L/R speakers so many have built on this forum. I'm using the A652 for my L/R and the Audax center channel. They really provide a seamless front array. I built the A652 back in 1996, so the HT system was not available at the time. I built the center in 2001 and didn't want to re-build the L/Rs since I really love my 652s.


Ralph Calabria

Secrets' DIY Editor
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/mast...y_projects.html


----------



## Ken1015

Hi guys,


regarding the practice of leaving a slight overhang on cabinets then trimming the excess, that's a great idea but which trim bit do you use? I went to the local HD to pickup a laminate trim bit and was overwhelmed with the choices. I assume I will need at least a 3/4'' cut depth but there are even many choices that meet that criterion. I'm going to buy a Viper bit from HD. What should I look for in a laminate trim bit for this application?


Thanks


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Ken,

I bought a 12-pc set of Hickory bits from HD for $99. It didn't have a rabbetting bit and I bought a 1/2" shank Bosch bit rabbetting that is very good but also a bit pricey. The trim bit that I use came with the 12-pc set and is a 1/2" trim bit with bearing. *Note, this set is a 1/4" shank set and fortunately, I have an adapter for my 1/2" router. This set came with a 1/4" and 3/8" roundover bit. The 3/8" is about as small as you can use for the speaker cabinets. It also has a Roman Ogee bit that I found useful for trimming the bases of my floor stands. It gives them a nice detailed look.


----------



## Ken1015

Thanks, Jeff.


----------



## BigguyZ

The flush trim bit I use is from woodline and has a 1" cutting length. It cost only $10, and shipping seems to be $3.99 for all orders (though I'm sure there are limits for really large orders). I'm going to have a big purchase this weekend, but I don't know if I should bother to buy another bit locally right now for twice as much so I can do more now... I might break down though, as I'm really making some headway. Hopefully I'll havs pics on Sunday night.


----------



## Johnla

For you guys that have bits that are getting dull. You should buy a diamond hone for sharpening knives, because you can use it to help keep your router bits sharp also. By just touching them up when they seem to get dull.

Sure sooner or later they will be worn to the point of not being useful, as you would have "removed" to much of the carbide from to many "touch ups". But you'll probably will get at least 4 times the use out of them, when compared to not honing them when needed.

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...id=00995431000 

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...id=00995430000


----------



## Matt Peacock

Two things:


1) I haven't visited this thread in ages and now I can't catch up









2) I'm going to be fusing my speakers, I've got information on it which I'll type up (or scan if I feel lazy) and post later.


This is because the people in my house have collectively blown about 13 speakers, two of which were mine










Matt


----------



## Johnla

Don't count on the fusing of them, as being 100% foolproof. About the only way you can really hopefully fuse them against foolish abuse, is if you under fuse them. But then you run the risk of blowing a fuse, when it should not during just hard normal use. In reality, a good clean amp with lots of power, will rarely damage a speaker with too much power. But a amp with *just enough* or marginal power can do so easily, if it's asked to do more that it can cleanly put out.


If it's a real problem, where you really have to watch over them because of so many different people having access to and playing/using them, then you may want to look into using auto-reset speaker circuit breakers, instead of fuses.

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....7&WebPage_ID=3


----------



## BigguyZ

I don't know why you'd bother fusing them, personally. The box is what's expensive, and that won't blow. With DIY, I see a huge benefit of knowing how things are built and being able to replace them. Kind of like computers. Once you demystify the thing, it's not a big deal to do the work yourself.


John- I bought a package of 3 of those stones you mentioned. The package had three grits: the two you mentioned and one grit higher. The whole group was only $24. I tried it on mt fulsh trim bit and it worked marvelously! So it looks like I won't go through 10 bits, especially now I cut much closer to the actual edge.


General question- How long do you clamp a panel? The glue- titebond- says at least 1 hour. i have a panel clamped for 3-4 hours, and then I needed the clamps to do more. I was measuring something on the box, and it seperated on 3 seams! So it looks like I'll either use wood screws like JL, or I need to get more clamps...


----------



## Johnla

Good to see that the diamond hones did the trick for you. Just remember to try and use them more on the face of the carbide as much as possible, rather than the edge. That way the outside diameter of the bit won't be so much at risk of getting smaller over time.


I myself use at least a few countersunk screws, that will never be removed. Because unlike true wood, MDF has almost no porosity for the glue to really "soak in", and offer the hold strength like it will in real wood. MDF is really more of a compressed paper type product, than it is a wood product. And normal yellow wood glue, don't provide the "grip" in MDF or Masonite type products, like it does in wood. So you might want to try a polyurethane glue, like "Gorilla Glue" or the Elmers brand which have two different versions "Ultimate Glue or Pro Bond". As the polyurethane glues hold better on materials like MDF than normal yellow wood glue do. Just be aware, that polyurethane glues also cost about 3 times as much as normal wood glues. And is a real pain to get off your hands when it's dried on. ALSO! Polyurethane glues require moisture to cure! So you should dampen the 2 surfaces that you are going to glue together, before you put the glue on one of them.


Also polyurethane glues do EXPAND and it will FOAM! So DO NOT use too much of it! Because using too much, can easily = a massive mess.

http://gorillaglue.com/theglue/directions.shtml 

http://www.excelglue.com/Tips/tips.html 

http://www.excelglue.com/product.htm#Surface%20Prep 




And here is site that has a good rundown, of both the pros & cons of polyurethane glues.

As well as for many other types of glues also.


As from http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/i...h/infadhe.shtm 


"Polyurethane glue


Polyurethane glue is one of the best waterproof glues available. It is a one-part adhesive that will adhere to wood, metals, stone, ceramics and many plastics. It does not dry like PVA glues, but instead chemically reacts with moisture in the objects being glued. This reaction causes an expansion of the glue, filling all voids and giving an exceptionally solid glue joint. If the material is dry, spraying a light mist onto it before gluing accelerates the curing process.


In many ways, polyurethane may be the best wood glue... it accepts wood stains and it sands well in thin coatings. Most other adhesives will not absorb wood stain, acting as a sealer on the wood surface. And removing these other adhesives can be difficult because they dry to a "gummy" texture that resists removal from the wood by sanding... the second strong reason to consider trying polyurethane glue for your next project.


Polyurethane glue has a longer setting time than PVA glues, so you have more time to adjust misaligned clamps and other errors before you reach the gluing world's version of the "point of no return".


Nothing is perfect and polyurethane is no exception. Remember poly glue's expansion factor I mentioned a few paragraphs back, hmm? Overgenerous application of polyurethane glue can cause a messy situation as it emerges like the Blob from your joint! And you can't just wipe it off with a sponge like PVA wood glue. Polyurethane glue is not water soluble, so always have your trusty can of denatured alcohol handy for the cleanup of your work piece and your sloppy hands! Use of protective gloves is not a bad idea if you are doing a large job. Thin latex gloves... like your beloved dentist uses to protect herself from the blight of your yucky cavities... are far and away the best gloves for this task because you still have some dexterity and "touch".


One other annoying characteristic of polyurethane glues is their proclivity to harden in the container. This is associated with moist air becoming trapped in the container, beginning the setting process. This is not as much of a problem for small-time users but is an expensive nuisance for quantity buyers. Suggested remedies are pouring a small quantity of mineral spirits in the container when stored for long periods. This keeps the glue young and supple... just don't forget to pour the solvent off before using the glue!


Once dry, this stuff will not come off anything easily. Solvents are ineffective leaving mechanical removal by either cutting or sanding as your only recourse. On hands or other unfortunate body parts, it will wear off eventually (as your epidermis sloughs off yesterday's cells) or you can accelerate the shedding process with an abrasive soap such as Lava. Or just leave it on your body as a badge of courage... "Me handyman, ugh!"


(Note: I know my editor has breathed a sigh of relief that I chose "dentist" as an example of latex glove use. Actually, I have always thought of dentistry as very similar to construction and handymanship in techniques, materials and goals... do it right the first time, use the best materials available, and make lots of money. OK... two out of three ain't bad!)


Gorilla Glue, Probond Polyurethane Glue, and PL Premium Wood Glue are three examples of polyurethane glues."


----------



## msieweke

Johnla,

The problem with MDF and glue is that it's TOO porous. It soaks up so much water-based glue that you can get a starved glue joint. (The same problem occurs when you try to paint it, since it soaks up a lot more paint than you expect.) I would apply a layer of glue on both surfaces and let it soak in for a minute; then apply another layer of glue, assemble, and clamp up. Be sure to apply an excess of glue, so it squeezes out just a bit. Any good glue (white or yellow glue included) should form a bond with the MDF which is stronger than the wood itself - and that includes MDF.


This technique won't work for polyurethane glues, which aren't absorbed in the same way. Use the instructions on the label.


----------



## Johnla

Sure the white or yellow glue joints should be stronger than the wood or MDF is itself. But because MDF really has no real structure to it like real woods do, with their natural fibers and grain. It also means that MDF is not structurally as strong as most real woods are. So a MDF glue joint would almost never be as strong as one that is in real wood because of that. Also with most of the sheet MDF that's sold, that is not considered something like a "utility" grade. It is really only "too" porous where you have made cuts in it, or have sanded it. Because a lot of it that is sold, is so smooth. That it is almost like it has a "skin" on the flat sides of it, and it's really not that porous at all, unless it's been sanded or cut. A lot of the MDF that's sold around me, has almost as smooth a flat surface on it, as what Masonite has, which is the type I buy. While some others are just barely smoother than what particle board is, and that kind treats glue and paint like it's a dried out sponge. Sure MDF may be dense and heavy, which is why it's good for building speakers with it. But it's also nowhere near as strong as what most hardwoods and softwoods are.

Another thing that white and yellow wood glues require, is a good fitting, straight and tight joint, as it is terrible at filling any gaps. Which is also one of the main reasons the polyurethane glues have become so popular. And that is because it is very good at filling gaps, and the way it expands while setting up helps it do that even more.


----------



## usabrian

I use yellow glue for just about everything and have never, ever had a problem with it and MDF. Its just about impossible to separate when used correctly. I should mention that construction adhesive also works well but is very expensive.


Brian


----------



## BigguyZ

This is my second surround enclosure after reclamping all of the edges that came loose. I think I just didn't allow time for it to cure completely is all.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I think one reason many people have a problem with MDF and wood glue is over-clamping. What I mean is tightening the clamps too much which squeezes out the glue. I've actually tried this and my projects held up better if I didn't over tighten the clamps. For all my recent speakers, I've used a biscuit joiner and clamps.


----------



## BigguyZ

Here's the back of the first enclosure. This is the one where the back panel was 1/16" or so raised from the sides. I sanded it down with 80 grit sanding disc on my random orbit sander, then went to it with a 220 grit disc. As you can see, that worked out really well; better than I thought it would.


----------



## BigguyZ

Here's the inner part of the front baffle for the first box. Now here's a question for you- with a sealed box, how do I get the baffle out of the box? That was a pain and a valuable lesson.


----------



## BigguyZ

Then here's a picture shoing you a better idea on how I'm constructing the boxes now. I'm leaving plenty of overhang, then glueing the pieces together, then I cut down a lot if it with the circular saw, then I flush trim. In this picture you see the sides, which are cut with "slop" on the sides facing the top, bottom, and back; and the top and bottom pieces that are cut as precisely as possible.


----------



## BigguyZ

Just thought I'd add another word about safety. I use a respirator whenever I cut the MDF. But I was just making the cut and sometimes taking the mask off right away. Well last night I wanted to continue working after dark, so I was using a work floodlight to illuminate the area. This picture just shows you the air a couple of minutes after making a not-too-big but with a circular saw. I think I'll have the remember to keep my respirator on for long after I make a cut or trim. It'd be best not to work in an enclosed area- I do so only because my brother's house is in a not-so-good neighborhood and I don't want it widely known that there's a load of tools and speakers in the process of being built.



And John- I was told only to do the innder edge for the honing stones as well.



Also, I think that maybe I do over-tighten the clamps, as Jeff advised against. I must admit I try to squeaze the heck out of the enclosures.... I'll try backing off a bit.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

BGZ,

Those are looking very good! With that cabinet being so smooth, you could paint it.


As for getting the inner baffle out, the easiet way is to not attach the rear baffle. Then you just push it out. That's the way I built my previous speakers. However, with the set of surrounds I just built, I had already glued the rear baffle in place. My solution was to place two brick pavers that are heavier than a normal building brick inside the cabinet. I then gently shook it and the baffle came loose. I had to do it that way because I glue my double thick baffles together first. There is an inner and outer front baffle. The inner baffle fits inside the cabinet like a plug. I had to make sure they were straight and while still wet, I placed the cabinet over the front baffle (with the brick pavers inside) and moved the baffle around until it aligned. The glue was still wet and I got perfect alignment. I then let it dry for 1/2 hour and and shook it out using the weight of the bricks. I hope that is easy to visualize.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

BGZ,

If you haven't noticed yet, the MDF dust will stick to everything. I think it gets a static charge from the cutting blade.


----------



## BigguyZ

I was able to get the baffle out- it was just one of those moments where I put it in to check the fit- found it was snug (which is good), and then realized _ how am I going to get these out??. I think if I knew the circle diameter for the input cup, I'd just cut the circle out for that in the rear and use a dowell r something to push it out. No matter, it won't happen again._


----------



## cjd

You can always drill a pilot hole and insert a screw or two to grab onto.


Worst case, you have to fill with some putty. But on a baffle, they can go somewhere in the cutout spot.










And, I'm through working with MDF. I'll be using birch ply. It's not quite twice the price of MDF, but isn't nearly as nasty to work with.


C


----------



## moonhawk

I'm using Veneer laminated MDF bonded to Apple ply, which is similat to Baltic Birch, but made with maple, and comes in 4x8 sheets, not 5x5. It is more expensive but has fewer voids than BB.


The bonding of two dissimilar materials helps deaden the enclosure, and is recommended by Northcreek, which makes the kits I'm building.


The pre-veneered saves a little work, though I have some misgivings...I'll keep you all posted.


I'm using solid wood for the outer front baffle, and the top and bottom, to hide unfinished man-made edges, and so I can round over ALL the edges.


BTW, I use a lot of Baltic Birch when building cabinet projects for the house and some jobs, with veneered ply for the visible parts.


BB is stable, strong and light. MUCH nicer to work with than MDF, particle board or melamine. For shop cabinets, you can just sand and finish the exposed edges, with a slight radius to relieve the sharp edges. Works well, and is an inexpensive and quick way to build doors and drawer fronts, as well as the boxes. No need to band the edges


FWIW


----------



## J. L.

BigguyZ,


Looks like you are well on your way. It also looks like you have figured out that there is no single way to construct an enclosure, but lots of ways, equally good. We all use the tools we have available.


Your enclosure that was sanded flush with your orbital sander looks great! I don't have an orbital sander and did mine with a sanding block. Both work, I'll bet yours was probably a tad faster










Keep us in the loop with the pictures. They really help to see the progress.


Joe L.


----------



## usabrian

Regarding dust, one of the best little projects I have done for controlling dust is a home made dust filter. I just made a box the same inner size as my furnace filter sizes like 16 X 24 and I glued in little dividers to equally separate about five filters. The front of the box is open to pull in the air. On the rear is a large hole with a powerful attic fan on the other side to pull the air through. One side of the box is hinged to allow you to change the filters. I usually put in a micron type filter in the front and then just cheap filters behind.


With this thing I literally cannot cloud up the shop anymore no matter how hard I try. I highly recommend this to anyone doing anything more than a one or two time project.


Brian


----------



## Johnla

This is where the exhaust fan I put in the wall of my garage for when I do spray painting, comes in handy for another use. Because it also pulls out the dust fairly well also. Iy helps more if you also just slightly open a window across from it, or crack open the entrance door. So you can get a good cross-flow going through the exhaust fan.


The best way to go though for wood dust in the air, is with a shop "air filter" unit. But they are bit pricey, but well worth it, if you do enough woodworking with power tools.

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...id=00921329000 

http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPR...ARTNUM=923-866 

http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPR...ARTNUM=123-314 

http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPR...PARTNUM=50-857


----------



## DLK




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Calabs_
> *Does anyone on this thread have the Audax A652?*



Howdy, Ralph! Good to see you participating in this epic thread.


I still use the set of 652s that I did a long time ago. I will concur - these are great sounding loudspeakers. Perhaps that's why I never see the carbon-fabric cone Audax drivers on sale ( http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=296-073 ). These sounded so good that I was inspired to do the other design Dickason did at the time - the A651. Unfortunately these didn't sound as good IMHO. Plus, replacement diaphragms for the 651's aluminum tweeter are no longer available. I'm using the 651s for my temporary HT setup (sans center channel), as the 652s are being used for another application.


My original intentions were to construct a front array using MBOW1 three ways for LF/RF and an MBOW1 two way for CC. I have decided not to do this for HT use, as I will have non-optimum mounting (ceiling) to meet certain SAF requirements (I'm sure nobody else here has this problem







). Anyway, I couldn't resist the Audax HT setup when PE put the drivers on sale. I'm designing new cabinets that will retain stock baffle dimensions but are compound-angled (as they are higher that I would like). I'll be using some in-wall speakers for surrounds, plus a two-15" IB manifold.


I will still do a pair of MBOW1 three ways, as I have already procured some components, but not use them for HT.


-Dan


----------



## Calabs

I'd like to comment on a few things that have been stated over the past couple of days (bare with me; I've only caught up to Page 13 of this thread)!


As most of you already know MDF is used not just because it is heavy. Mostly because it is acoustically dead. There are no "tonal qualities to it, unlike wood used for , say, a violin. It's uniform, void-free characteristics make it perfect for speaker building. Additionally, I find it has an advantage for making nice round recessing holes for drivers. Particle board chips too much to make a nice cut. Baltic Birch is fantastic as well. My A652s were build from MDF/BB composites, and I will say, wrapping these monsters with my knuckles sounds like I"m knocking on a 4 foot block of wood. No resonances at all!


When you guys are cutting MDF, are you using a table saw? If so, what sort of dust collection system are you using? Again, this may have been talked about before, but I've got my saw connected to a simple ShopVac. I'd say it removes ~95% of would-be airborne dust.


Regarding MDF/yellow glue, I've had lots of success just using butt joints with yellow glue. I use clamps to hold the two corners together, drill pilot holes, and use drywall screws to secure the joint. I screw just tight enough to pull the ends together, then remove the clamps to move on to the next joint. There are MANY different ways to do this, but this is what has worked for me. YMMV. I've found that using yellow glue in the joints, as well as a very small bead along the inside of the cabinet along the joint, provides an air tight seal.


DLK - Thanks for the reply. It's nice to see that others are taking advantage of this great design. I've continued to use the A652s in my reference system to evaluate other equipment, and still have yet to find something (in its price range) to surpass it. Not sure if you've seen my construction plans. They were a bit different from the Audax design.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_3_3/v3n3d.html 


Lots more reading to do..............so little time!


Ralph Calabria

Secrets DIY Editor
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/maste..._projects.html


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I use my 10" table saw whenever possible. I used to keep it in a little basement workshop. However, that unfinished room is now the backside of our in-wall equipment rack and I don't use any power tools in that area anymore (except a drill). I moved the table saw and compound mitre saw to the garage but the dust was horrible. I now move it out to our deck to make cuts (I still wear a respirator and saftey glasses). I also keep the leaf blower close. I'll be building two Dayton Two-Ways for my daughter's b'day and I'm going to build a 7th Audax speaker. After that, I'm done with speakers (7 Audax, cylinder sub, 12" sealed sub, MBOW1, Dayton 2-way).


I would like to eventually build more. My brother is moving into a new house on the lake in Charlotte. I'm going to try to get him to install an HT and let me build him some speakers.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Calabs_
> *When you guys are cutting MDF, are you using a table saw? If so, what sort of dust collection system are you using?
> 
> Ralph Calabria
> 
> Secrets DIY Editor
> http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/maste..._projects.html *


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *I use my 10" table saw whenever possible. I used to keep it in a little basement workshop. However, that unfinished room is now the backside of our in-wall equipment rack and I don't use any power tools in that area anymore (except a drill). I moved the table saw and compound mitre saw to the garage but the dust was horrible. I now move it out to our deck to make cuts (I still wear a respirator and saftey glasses).*



Good idea using the respirator regardless of where you're working. The formaldehyde in MDF could be a killer! In addition to a respirator and goggles, I also use the "headphone" type ear protection. Got to protect those ears so we can hear what we build!










Ralph Calabria

Secrets DIY Editor
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/mast...y_projects.html


----------



## DLK




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Calabs_
> *When you guys are cutting MDF, are you using a table saw? If so, what sort of dust collection system are you using? Again, this may have been talked about before, but I've got my saw connected to a simple ShopVac. I'd say it removes ~95% of would-be airborne dust.*



For the sizes of enclosures we're dealing with here, I generally dice up a panel of MDF with a circular saw and a guide, making the panels slightly oversize. I then use a table saw with a rip fence to get the panels to target width. I then cut panels to length on a radial arm saw (after spending time making sure it's cutting square). I cut smaller circular holes with a flycutter, doing the rest with a router (circle guide and/or templates). I also use a biscuit joiner when assembling the cabinets, and a belt sander to "fix" things.


-Dan


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DLK_
> *For the sizes of enclosures we're dealing with here, I generally dice up a panel of MDF with a circular saw and a guide, making the panels slightly oversize. I then use a table saw with a rip fence to get the panels to target width. I then cut panels to length on a radial arm saw (after spending time making sure it's cutting square). I cut smaller circular holes with a flycutter, doing the rest with a router (circle guide and/or templates). I also use a biscuit joiner when assembling the cabinets, and a belt sander to "fix" things.
> 
> 
> -Dan*



DLK,

Nice to see some of us can afford a REAL woodworking shop!







Are any of your "cutting" power tools connected to a dust collector? A random orbital works great for squaring up edges once glued-up. Do you find the belt sander gives you some uneven edges, or are you a "steady hand"?


----------



## DLK

I've collected tools over a long period of time, which has made it relatively painless from a cost standpoint. The classifieds is not a bad resource to find good buys (although I'm still looking for that older Delta bandsaw







). I got my table saw in the late eighties from Grizzly. It has been a good tool, although I had to upgrade the original rip fence as it wasn't very good. Rewiring it to run on 240V really made it much more usable, particularly when ripping a big, sappy piece of southern yellow pine.


I currently have no dust collector, more for reasons of space than cost. I will eventually put something together when I have the time.


The belt sander comment was sort of tongue-in-cheek, although I have successfully used it to trim off slightly oversize panels. It doesn't lend itself to being delicate.


-Dan


----------



## Calabs

Has anyone every measured the frequency response for the Audax Center Channel? I know Audax had some graphs on their website, but I'd be interested to see what others may have gotten. I'm planning to take some (long awaited) measurements with my AudioControl Analyzer. I will be posting the results on our website when they're available. Anyone interested in seeing the results?


Ralph Calabria

Secrets DIY Editor
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/mast...y_projects.html


----------



## mb2004

I also have collected many tools over the years. The Grizzley table saw I bought in the early 90's has proved to be very reliable. Although I also had to uprade the fence. All tools in my shop are connected through a Grizzley dust collector. This was by far one of the most worthwhile tools I added to my shop, considering the amount of MDF I work with. Definitely a good and not to expensive investment.


----------



## usabrian

Grizzly makes good products at a nice cost. I should also mention that dust collectors can be typically DIY'd for lower cost and better performance than most commercial models. Do a search for DIY dust collector and you will find several hits.


Brian


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Calabs_
> *Nice to see some of us can afford a REAL woodworking shop! Are any of your "cutting" power tools connected to a dust collector?*



I myself don't have a *real* dust collection system. But I do have the attachments/adapters for using one on my 12' thickness planer, 6" jointer/planer, 10 " radial arm saw, 10" table saw, router table, and my Bosch router has one. And I use the biggest Sears shop vac that they sell, with a adapter on those above power tools. And for the most part, it works pretty well. But the 12" thickness planer, and the 6" jointer/planer, are VERY hard to keep up with using just a shop vac. Because they really throw out a lot of wood chips when used. And the shop vac at times can not keep up with them.

In fact I use all my planer *chips*, in my garden as wood mulch. So that gives you a good idea, of how much they can put out when planing a fair sized board down. This summer I may buy a real dust collector, like one of the lower cost wheel around portable ones. Because I can not set up a tubing system that runs to each tool, for a stationary one.

A few of the portable ones I'm thinking about, are the Delta, Grizzly, Sears and Jet brand models sold. Along with a few that Menards sells, which go on sale every now and then.

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...id=00921335000 

http://www.powertools.com/WdWkMac/Du...sp?var1=DC-650 

http://www.powertools.com/WdWkMac/Du...asp?var1=G8027 

http://www.powertools.com/WdWkMac/Du...asp?var1=AP400 


Here is a site that has a LOT of info on dust collection systems. Setting up and using. And even how to make your own as a DIY project.

And also lists the health safety issues, about why you should use one.

http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworki...lone/index.cfm


----------



## J. L.

Calabs,


I know I would be interested in seeing the measured frequency response of the Audax series. I'm pretty sure others would too.


Joe L.


----------



## BigguyZ

I probably won't have time to do much more this week with my speakers. More based on cost of gas, as my brother (and all my tools) live 20 miles away.


By the way, I may have found a possible source for some cheap router bits. I passed by a Menards and went in to pick up an extra clamp. They have their own brand- Tool Shop- and their clamps aren't bad at all. They have the quick grip style clamps for the least expensive I've seen. I know Horbor Freight has cheap basoc bar clamps, but even there the quick grip clamps are much more costly. Anyways, they have 12" clamps for $7 and 24" for $10. I got oone of the 24" clamps because they're easy to work with and I need something large enough to clamp down a completed box while I use a roundover or flush trim on the edge of the box. Long story short (too late, I know)- they also have Tool Shop router bits for pretty darn cheap. AND they have a over the counter lifetime guarantee! Just keep your recipt, and it if gets dull, get a new one. They don't have a large supple of the bigger bits (like 3/4" roundover or 1" cutting length flush trims), but it's definitely not bad. And the Viper bits are cheaper than at HD if you want to go that way. I'm still going to order from Woodline for the big bits I need, but not a bad deal just the same.


----------



## Johnla

I've got some of the bits that you mentioned from Menards. And they are definitely a step or two below the ones Woodline/woodbits.com sells. Which also have a lifetime guarantee BTW.

But I can understand, that just walking into a Menards and getting a replacement bit handed to you in just a few minutes, being a HUGE advantage over having to send one back and waiting a week or so for it' return....










So it's just too bad that the ones Menards does sell, are not offered in more of the kinds I would like to have. Such as 1/4" spirals in both upcut and downcut. And a wider choice of roundovers. But they do at least have flush trim bits, rabbit bits, and stuff like that...










But yes, Menards does have a good deal going on with some of their clamps they have on sale right now. And I'm thinking about picking up the one or maybe two of the Wolfcraft 4pc quick-grip combo sets, that they have on sale now for about $23 each.


----------



## Matt Peacock

Swaying away from tools for just a second...

...the right speaker is has been veneered up and stained for a few weeks now, and I'm thinking about finishing...


The surface is slightly rough. Do I sand before or after varnishing? Would it be ok to varnish a few coats and sand that smooth? I don't want to damage the grain or god forbid, go through to the MDF.

If not, waxing. How much work is it and what are the benefits?


Matt


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Matt Peacock_
> *Swaying away from tools for just a second...
> 
> ...the right speaker is has been veneered up and stained for a few weeks now, and I'm thinking about finishing...
> 
> 
> The surface is slightly rough. Do I sand before or after varnishing? Would it be ok to varnish a few coats and sand that smooth? I don't want to damage the grain or god forbid, go through to the MDF.
> 
> If not, waxing. How much work is it and what are the benefits?
> 
> 
> Matt*



I would sand before AND after varnishing. It will be harder to remove the rough surface once the varnish is applied, and you'd basically have to go back down to bare wood.










While the vaneer is very thin, if you use a very fine grit, you should be fine.


Ralph Calabria

Secrets DIY Editor
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/mast...y_projects.html


----------



## Matt Peacock

OK thanks, I'll look for some finishing paper (I'm really worried so I'll go for a grit close to paper!)

BTW, the link in your sig doesn't seem to work (for me at least).


Matt


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Matt Peacock_
> *OK thanks, I'll look for some finishing paper (I'm really worried so I'll go for a grit close to paper!)
> 
> BTW, the link in your sig doesn't seem to work (for me at least).
> 
> 
> Matt*



Hmmm................it worked before. Try this one. Sorry for the confusion.

For some reason, the URL was cut off in the middle. Very strange!

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/maste..._projects.html


----------



## BigguyZ

John- I didn't know woodline had a lifetime warranty. That means I won't have to buy a slew of flush trim bits. I'll definitely look into that.


While I'm taking a break in building (should get back to it on Thursday), I'm wondering on how I'll end up finishing the speakers. I think I could do a pretty good job with a piano black finish, but then again you could have glare issues like JL had. But- you could then round all of the edges, which I can only assume would be good (if two edges rounded helps, why wouldn't all 4 rounded or three rounded help even more??). Also, I've been looking at the veneer prices, and to go with the style veneer I like, it'd cost probably at least another $150-200! That's a lot of paint. What do you guys think? How much did you all spend on veneer? I'd want something that could have a rosewood-esqe reddish color.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I spent approx $130 for Audax veneer (7 speakers) and $70 on the MBOW1 speakers (2 speakers). The African Ribbon Stripe Mahogany looks really nice on the MBOW1s. I finished them with Danish Oil. Currently, they are still in their natural oiled state and I like them. However, I have some hand rubbed poly that I'm thinking about putting over them. The Audax were stained with Rosewood stain and then several coats of clear satin poly.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *John- I didn't know woodline had a lifetime warranty. That means I won't have to buy a slew of flush trim bits. I'll definitely look into that.
> *



As per. http://www.woodline.com/scripts/about.asp 


"Woodline has also changed the warranty policy to a limited LIFETIME WARRANTY on router bits and shaper cutters. Of course some limitations like hitting nails or dropping them apply but ours is the best warranty and customer service policy in the business. Details of the warranty are included in the catalog. With our new shipping policy your packages usually arrive within 2-3 days."


But even given that, at $10 per bit & a using Diamond hone to keep it sharp, I really don't think I'll ever use it.

On a higher priced bit, yeah maybe then so. But probably not on a $10 bit.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *I finished them with Danish Oil. Currently, they are still in their natural oiled state and I like them. However, I have some hand rubbed poly that I'm thinking about putting over them.*



I almost cry when I see someone thinking of doing that to a beautiful oiled finish.










Because I just love the way wood looks with just a oiled, or stained and oiled finish. Over varnish and such, and more so polythene finishes. But I also realize that some people like and love the looks of varnishes, shellacs, lacquers and polyurethanes.

But, to each his own. Different people like different types of finishes. Just like most other things in life where there are choices that can be made.


----------



## George

usabrian has a good tip for you guys.


I've done the same but

I got a throw away furnace blower motor from a local HVAC shop who replace some one's furnace.


At this time of year I'm sure you can get one for free.


USABrian, I'm assuming your micro filter is last or closes to the fan.

I'm not sure I read your post correctly.


I also added a 60 minute adjustable timer switch.


For MDF speaker boxes, these DIY air scrubers are perfect.


later


----------



## Matt Peacock

I stumbled across this today, I think it's going to make someone a heck of a lot of money;

http://www.sawstop.com 


Be sure to check out the videos and the "how does it work page". Good stuff, especially considering I've personally witnessed someone put their finger through a table saw.


Matt


----------



## BigguyZ

Has anyone bought their Audax kits from Zalytron? Between Them and Madisound the price is similar, but I did notice that Zalytron uses biwirable terminal cups....


----------



## moonhawk

Yeah, hate to say it, but I cut my thumb really bad back on New Year's...










I've read about those saws, they apparently actually work.


Anyway, the thumb's healing up more or less OK...


----------



## Johnla

If I was buying a new saw right now, I'm not sure if I would buy one of those or not. If they end up working really well, my guess is that in a few years they will almost become a standard on the higher priced saws. But they will probably never have such a system on the sub $300 saws. Safety starts with the operator of the equipment first and foremost. And no matter how safe something is, it can either fail, or the operator can do something so stupid, that any extra safety measures may not work.

And to be honest, using my Radial arm saw, scares me more than using my table saw. Not that using either of them is just child's play!



In my life I have seen a total two absolutely idiotic mistakes, where someone lost a finger, and one mangled his hand. And no amount of safety equipment could have prevented it for either one of them. Other than the idiots themselves not being allowed within a mile of any shop equipment!


The first one was in HS print-shop, where the guy was cleaning the rollers of the offset press, and we all were told at least a thousand times! To NEVER clean the rollers with a rag, or anything else, while the press is running! Sure enough he has the press running, using a rag that was dipped in solvent. And the two rollers of the press grabbed the rag, and pulled his hand in up to the wrist before we got the press stopped. It crushed his hand to where it was flattened out. No he was luck as he did not lose his hand, but it did end up being mangled for the rest of his life. And this guy was such a idiot, while it was healing. He would pull the medical wrappings from his hand, in order to "gross out" girls (and even some guys) in some of his other classes. And he was even expelled for doing that once.


And number two, was also in HS. But this time it was machine shop, and the guy was running a horizontal milling machine. And for some STUPID reason, he decided to touch the milling bit with his finger while he was milling a piece of steel. It pulled it in, and he lost that finger.


But I was unlucky enough to be in both classes, and to have been around such stuff. And the horrible messes that resulted from them


----------



## BigguyZ

Got a lot done today. I basically have all of the principle building of the mains and surrounds finished. Until I get at least the bits I ordered (rabbet, roundover), I won't be able to finish. I also will pretty much have to wait until I get the kit ordered for the speakers as well (so I kow the exact diameter of each driver, as well as the terminal cup). I'd update you all with pictures, but my copmuter HDD crashed and I lost everything. I need to go home now and reinstall everything. So I won't be able to get any picks posted until everything is up again on the homefront (I'm at my brother's place now). Surprised how quickly things are ending up taking. Also not yet decided on how I'll finish the speakers either. I'll have to figure that out later....


----------



## timle

Well inspired by all of you (especially J.L.), I have begun cutting the wood for my audax speaker set. I've built many a subwoofer cabinet but never speaker cabinet I intend to display. I'm starting with the rears, wish me luck. I got the front, rear, and sides cut today. Thanks for all of your progress and pictures!


----------



## minhi

to bring this back to subwoofer discussions (not that talking about saws is bad







)


I'm looking at all these sonotube pages and I'm curious as to why more people are not doing a sealed sonotube? I know the vented one will give much more volume and go deeper, but I'm putting this into an apartment, JL's waterheater subwoofer would shake the foundation of my whole apartment building!


I was thinking of doing of going sealed so I don't have to worry about the ports and the volume calculations are much more forgiving and I don't have to goto modeling software. I also have to cut a few less holes into the baffle!


I could easily build a box subwoofer, but the tube looks interesting.


Well it was just a thought, and one related question, if i want to power this with an external amplifier (say an old stereo power amp), do i need to put a xover on it? Or does the signal coming from my receiver already filter out the signal?


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by minhi_
> *to bring this back to subwoofer discussions (not that talking about saws is bad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> 
> I'm looking at all these sonotube pages and I'm curious as to why more people are not doing a sealed sonotube? I know the vented one will give much more volume and go deeper, but I'm putting this into an apartment, JL's waterheater subwoofer would shake the foundation of my whole apartment building!
> 
> 
> I was thinking of doing of going sealed so I don't have to worry about the ports and the volume calculations are much more forgiving and I don't have to goto modeling software. I also have to cut a few less holes into the baffle!
> 
> 
> I could easily build a box subwoofer, but the tube looks interesting.
> 
> 
> Well it was just a thought, and one related question, if i want to power this with an external amplifier (say an old stereo power amp), do i need to put a xover on it? Or does the signal coming from my receiver already filter out the signal?*



Most designs will require a fairly large cabinet in order to provide the lowest octaves. A sealed enclosure will provide a 2nd order slope, which may tail off slowly in frequency, but will not reach the bottom punch necessary for a good home theater experience. (except, of course, if you have a large enclosure). Most subwoofers with small enclosures that reach way down in frequency usually have some type of highly amplified servo controlled system. If you're not in the market for a really TALL sonotube, you can always build OUT rather than UP. These types of sonotube subs look very nice as an end table! But again, most are vented as well. take a look at this design as an example:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...tember-99.html 


To answer your question regarding needing a xover, the answer is, it depends on which old stereo amp you have and what receiver you have. The sub should have a crossover, whether it be external or internal. If your receiver has a low pass filter, you should be set. What is the power rating on your old amp?


----------



## BigguyZ

Thought I'd give an update.. Got the computer running again- with a brand hew HDD... Yay. Anyways, I haven't been able to take pictures because the camera is being lent out. But I've finished the surrounds and the main enclosures to the point that I can't really go further without at least one kit to work off of. I'm pretty happy with the mains. The center should be rather nice, but again not much I can do until I get the actual parts. So It'll be some time before I have enough saved for all the kits. I may have to sell my current speakers just to fund the new ones.


I do have a question about subs. I want a small sub, that's not boomy. I live in an apartment, and I'd much rather have tight accurate bass than be able to shake my neighbor's walls/ floors/ ceilings.... I can build the enclosure, but are there any plans a la the Audax kit? Meaning, I just follow the picutres, buy the parts, and that's it?


----------



## timle

While waiting for veneer special order to come in. I'm starting to cut the MDF for the fronts and center of the audax set. Got the center cut except for the inner chamber and I'll I can say "Wow thats huge!". I need to get a digital camera and take some pictures of my progress.


I flushed mounted the woofer in the rears using my router. I used a straight cutting bit with the diameter of my driver flange and cut a circle using a homemade jig of hardboard. I, then, cut all the way throught with a smaller circle jig on the same hardboard. Worked great. I cut the terminal cup and tweeter hole with the same hardboard making new guide holes for each new circle size. I now have a piece of hardboard that will do all the audax drivers holes, except for the mid in the center, because I don't have that driver yet.


Did anyone do anything special to mount the drivers into the enclosures. Or did you just predrill the MDF and then drive screws into it?


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by timle_
> *While waiting for veneer special order to come in. I'm starting to cut the MDF for the fronts and center of the audax set. Got the center cut except for the inner chamber and I'll I can say "Wow thats huge!". I need to get a digital camera and take some pictures of my progress.
> 
> 
> I flushed mounted the woofer in the rears using my router. I used a straight cutting bit with the diameter of my driver flange and cut a circle using a homemade jig of hardboard. I, then, cut all the way throught with a smaller circle jig on the same hardboard. Worked great. I cut the terminal cup and tweeter hole with the same hardboard making new guide holes for each new circle size. I now have a piece of hardboard that will do all the audax drivers holes, except for the mid in the center, because I don't have that driver yet.
> 
> 
> Did anyone do anything special to mount the drivers into the enclosures. Or did you just predrill the MDF and then drive screws into it?*



Yes, this speaker does get big! Sounds like you've found a nice way to recess the drivers. I used a circle cutting guide to the depth of the driver flange. When I built this speaker, the front baffle was made of a composite MDF and baltic birch plywood. Because the screws hold well in the plywood, I just predrilled and screwed away! Here are the details:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...er-9-2001.html 


Good luck!

Ralph


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by timle_
> *Did anyone do anything special to mount the drivers into the enclosures. Or did you just predrill the MDF and then drive screws into it?*



As you probably know, my enclosures were made from MDF. I predrilled pilot holes in the MDF to mount my drivers and then just drove the screws into the MDF as you described.


I don't expect to have to remove the drivers often







(if at all) and figured as long as I didn't over-tighten and strip the holes, the screws would hold as good as anything else. My cordless drill has an adjustable slip clutch that automatically prevents over-tightening, so it was pretty easy to tighten the screws just right.


The only exception to this was when I mounted the 15 inch Adire tempest driver in my subwoofer. There I used "T-nuts" and bolts.


Oh yes... if you read some of the posts Jeff and I made, you might have learned that the Audax Center channel is NOT a small speaker that can sit atop most TV sets. Wait till you get it assembled. Not only is it huge, it is very heavy. (mine is approx. 50 pounds) ... it is worth it... wait till you get to listen to it in action.


Joe L.


----------



## timle

Thanks for your reply Joe. You're pictures and immense detail was pretty much the deciding factor for me and these speakers. I'm sure thats true of others, audax should give you a kickback










I plan to do as you did and I figured I'll never take these things apart unless the crossovers or something goes out. So I'll predrill and screw them into the MDF.


I have partially assembled the center channel and it is huge. However this is going into a dedicated theater once my house is done and it will sit beneath a DIY blackout cloth screen with an ECP 3500 projecting on to it, so it should look right at home.


Thanks again

TimLe


----------



## iwant12

_original post by BigguyZ ..._



> *Quote:*
> *I do have a question about subs. I want a small sub, that's not boomy. I live in an apartment, and I'd much rather have tight accurate bass than be able to shake my neighbor's walls/ floors/ ceilings.... I can build the enclosure, but are there any plans a la the Audax kit? Meaning, I just follow the picutres, buy the parts, and that's it?*


*
*


A passive radiator design is a good choice for small, clean sub.

See: Peerless Dual 10" PR Sub link at: http://www.geocities.com/adrian_mack/homepage.html 

or: http://gallery.avsforum.com/showgall...ppuser=7445744 


This sub uses a Peerless 10" XLS and 2 XLS 10" PR's massed to 600g each in a ~30L box - external 15"x15"x20" w/1.75" thick walls = internal 11.5"x11.5"x16.5".

Active eq at 23Hz with a Q of 1.5 by swapping the resistors on a PE 250W plate amp to R23=24K and R24=220K. (1% 24.3K and 220K aren't hard to find). This provides an approx 3.5db boost for a flat response to this frequency in-room. I've confirmed this with a RatShack meter, though I also apply a broad shallow reduction of a few dB centered at around 40Hz with my pre/pro to flatten what is either a normal driver response peak or room effects (minor difference - but the pre/pro has notch filter so I must play with it). Below 23 Hz, response drops fast per typical ported curve.


You certainly don't need the construction and finish I used. Screw/glue butt joints and paint are adequate - but make sure to double up MDF to 1.5" thick at least and it must be airtight.


----------



## BigguyZ

Well I appreciate the help, but I won't be doing much of anything for a long while. Some Piece of Crap broke into my brother's garage and stole all of my tools. So Now I need to replace hugdreds of $$ worth or stuff, most of which was not mine. Anyone have any good ways to secure power tools and/or a work area??


----------



## iwant12

sorry to hear that news, any chance of homeowner's insurance claim?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Homeowner's insurance was also going to be my suggestion. Several years ago, golf clubs were being stolen from garages that weren't locked. That included ours and my Titleist golf clubs. Insurance covered it all.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by iwant12_
> *sorry to hear that news, any chance of homeowner's insurance claim?*


----------



## usabrian

Here are my close to finished transmission line Adire Kit 281 and LCC center speaker in Rosewood, curly Maple and Zebrawood with piano black top and bottom. These have taken quite a while to get to this point.


----------



## usabrian

Slightly different view.


----------



## usabrian

Center still in progress (ran out of Rosewood and am tired of polishing black paint). More Rosewood on order...


----------



## BigguyZ




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by iwant12_
> *sorry to hear that news, any chance of homeowner's insurance claim?*



Not really, my brother has a $1,000 deductible. The total amount might reach that, or even exceed it. But if it's only 1 or 2 hundred more, he says that it'd cost more in a premium increase than we'd get from the company. I still have yet to go through everything and add it up- so who knows. Some of the equipment was pretty expensive. Either way, instead of my next $200 going to the main speaker kit, it's going to go towards getting new tools and a ton of security equipment. I really do want to know what methods you could use.... PM me so not to go OT on the thread.




usabrian- those speakers both look very nice. Were did you get the rosewood veneer? That's just the look I'd like to have for my speakers (6 months from now, when I'll be able to afford it...).


----------



## Johnla

If you really want to secure the tools, and if you really feel that it's necessary to go above and beyond a normal locking tool box. Then you would need to go to something like a large steel box, that can be bolted to the floor and that you can lock the tools up inside of it. Much like the ones they use on construction sites. But they are not cheap to buy. But if you know someone that has a welder, one could probably be made for a fairly low price, compared to buying one.

http://www.southern-tool.com/store/m...ool_boxes.html 

http://www.deltastorage.com/ 

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...DF&cm_ite=auto 

http://www.spraysystemsonline.com/si...ts/mb4822.html


----------



## BigguyZ

That's exactly what I had in mind. Something like that for the big tools, and a locked cabinet that screws into the wall from within the cabinet would be nice as well.


----------



## Hank

Ted et al: I just found this thread. I recommend GR Research A/V-3's as a great dual-purpose HT/music speaker. Excellent mids where the music resides. Page 3 of my crude web site:
http://www.geocities.com/hankbond1/index


----------



## usabrian




> Quote:
> usabrian- those speakers both look very nice. Were did you get the rosewood veneer? That's just the look I'd like to have for my speakers (6 months from now, when I'll be able to afford it...).



Thanks, I got the Rosewood from constantines.com . Its Santos not Brazilian. But I did get Brazilian recently as well as the figured Maple and Zebra from veneersupplies.com. That is a great site.


Since this was my first real project working with veneer I was worried about getting good seams so there are virtually none on my project as I veneered pieces that were in turn glued on the cabinet. The only seems I had were where the Rosewood and Zebra meet. It turned out very well. Seems are difficult to see where the wood changes direction or where two very different woods meet.


I really like the sound of the tower speakers but do not like the center speaker right now. I am not convinced the crossover was put together correctly as it seems very boxy right now and not enough oomph from those big woofers. The towers come with pre built crossovers but the center with just parts you have to assemble. I dont like that.


Brian


----------



## Jeff Hovis

usabrian,

Those are lookin good!


----------



## Raichu11cz

 Check out the Reference Plus speaker. 


I found this website a few months ago. Don't remember how I found it. Just cruisin' the web I guess. Anyway, I built these with my dad for his B-day. They use the very nice ScanSpeak 7" drivers..about 200 bucks each. Plus the tweaters are 200 each also. The X-over cost an arm and a leg too. We dicided if we were going to build a DIY speaker this nice, we might as well use the nicest X-over parts we could find. We ordered Mundorf parts from E-speakers.com. We used Blackhole 5 on the inside, and used WBT binding post. We housed the X-overs in seperate small cigar-box shaped enclosures, one for each speaker. Then we finished them in a very nice birds-eye maple veneer. All in all, it cost us about 2.5K to build these speakers. I din't have time to listen to them after they broke in, but from what I did hear the only speaker I have ever heard worthy of comparison to the ones we built are the reference line of those speakers that use the Uni-Q technology. I cant remeber their name, but I heard them at Ultimate electronics and they were like 10K for the pair. They sounded awsome, but I think the Reference Plus speakers we built sounded slightly better in the mids. And were certainly more dynamic.


Also the speaker on the same page called the Ultimo...the tweeters for that design are 900.00 for a matched pair. You wanted High end DIY...you got it!


But if you check out the whole website, they have designs in all price ranges. Sheilded and not. Full surround systems and 2ch speakers also. I would recommend geting a Partsexpress catalog and check out some of the drivers and their prices. I can tell you now, that none of the driver combos used will result in a poor quality speaker. You just have to choose which speaker you want to build. Have fun. Oh and those Woven glass 7" drivers from the Vifa XT line look and sound awsome. When I visit my dad again next month, I will get some pictures. Raichu


----------



## Ron_C

Question on the Audax construction.


I am building my set now and am starting with the rears(4 speakers for a 7.1 setup). My question is on applying the egg crate foam. I picked some up from Target but am confused as to how many sides of the speakers it goes on. I was reading one of the pdf docs in this thread and it said for the fronts do the top/bottom/back and one side. Center line Top or bottom/sides/back/sub enclosure. It says nothing for the rears. Do I line the entire enclosure? Also, why do you not line all the sides in the fronts and center? And why is it one side in the fronts and the top or bottom on the center?


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## timle

Its my understanding the reason for not lining both sides on the left/right or the top and bottom on the center is to not overdampen them. I'm no expert but following the advice of the plans in the matter. I believe its the top or bottom on the center because that is the large panels on the center versus the large panels being the sides of the left/rights. On the rears I lined everything thing but the bottom because thats where I put the crossover, however I have nothing to show that is the correct thing to do.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Like timle, I lined everything in my rear cabinets except the front baffle. I even cut some small strips to fit in the gaps between the xovers. Use 3M Super 77 spray adhesive and spray it in a WELL ventilated area. I built my center and fronts as recommended in the instructions. The other thing I did on my Audax and MBOW1s was to use some PE vinyl damping material under the xovers.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Raichu11cz,

Those are some niiiice speakers!


----------



## Raichu11cz

Thanks, I will try to get those pics when I visit my dad soon.


----------



## Calabs

Has anyone had a chance to build this kit?


I just finished a review of this sub. I must say the quality of sound coming out of this sub is really nice. Really flexible w.r.t. music and movies. For the price, it really is a bargain (IMHO). The box could have been made better, as there was no bracing, and the front/back baffles were a little thin to my taste. Anyone on this thread could probably build a better one, but the box is sold separately, so you have the choice. Not a bad box regarding finishing, though. Nice 1/4 round molding throughout. If you're interested, take a look at the specifics.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...er-4-2004.html 


Ralph


----------



## RayL Jr.

I was going to use some of the same drivers that turned out in this design - North Manifest Loudspeaker Project .....$3,399.00 per pair 


It uses the Aurum Cantus G1 ribbon tweeter crossed @ 1300 Hz with a custom Scan-Speak 18W/8545SC mid-woofer driver. Pic of the ribbon tweeter -











What I actually wanted to do is cross the G1 @ 900 Hz with a Scan-Speak 21W/8554-00 8" mid-woofer with an 8th or so order (48 dB/octave LW) active/passive filter. The passive part would be for DC transient... tweeter protection, at least 2nd order. The active crossover would be a digital model from dbx or BSS 3-way crossed with a subwoofer at 80 Hz.


I guess the rule is the tweeter has to handle 4x the power for each octave you drop the crossover. But at 102dB efficiency, the Aurum Cantus should still pump out 114-117dB after being steep crossed (active 8th order or so) at 900 Hz. The tweeter/mid-woofer separation of 7.42" (with the Scan-Speak 18W) would be very close wavelength wise - 1/2 wavelength is at 913 Hz... This would give the tweeter/mid-woofer combo more of a "point source" effect, at 1 wavelength (1800 Hz) the crossover is already down some 48 dB.


If not I'd try an Accuton C223-6 tweeter & C292-6 mid-woofer combo crossed at 1200-1300 Hz in a similar 3-way with 2 subs.










Other tweeters that can be crossed VERY low:


Jordan JX53 (extension really to 18 kHz, but 500 Hz crossover)

Orca Raven R3.1

Scan-Speak Revelator D2904/9800

Scan-Speak Revelator D2905/9900

Seas Millenium T25CF002 E 011

Morel MDT33


----------



## jsalk

RayL Jr -


I would be vary wary of crossing the G1 that low. You would need an extremely sharp slope to avoid damage to the ribbon. There is a reason they recommend crossing at 1500 3rd order. I don't know if he'd tell you (or he publishes this information), but you might want to ask George Short (North Creek) what kind of a slope he uses crossing at 1300.


- Jim


----------



## zacster

Here are my DIY speakers: http://zacfi.home.acedsl.com 


SS 9500/SS 8535 crossed at 3000hz. These are modified Proac Clones discussed on other boards. I've changed the design from the original "clone" so they really aren't clones anymore. They just sound good. Very deep bass, down to 28hz in my room, and sweet sounding. I know these speakers have some detractors, in all their variations, but I'm happy. When you get to this level of $ spent, there will always be someone that thinks they could do it better.


The cabinets are Australian Lacewood with a Wenge base. They still don't have any wood finish applied to them, and the left hasn't even been sanded smooth yet, you can still see the veneer tape mark down the middle of each side. You can see my SVS sub in the background on the left, and some of my equipment on the right. I don't use the sub for music, just for movies, and then mostly to protect the mains as I don't want Darla pounding out my woofers! What you don't see is my Bottlehead Foreplay pre-amp and Dynaco ST-70 amp. Cheap tube gear that blows away anything SS I've ever had. The Foreplay is a kit I built, and the Dynaco may have started out as a kit, but I didn't build it. I also have a Toshiba 3960 DVD player that I've modified, replacing the output section with good caps, and bypassing the op-amp completely.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I love that Lacewood. I recently built a set of MBOW1s for 2-channel and I almost went with Lacewood. I used Ribbon Striped Mahogany because it was a little less $ and I had never seen it on speakers before.


I really want to build a tube amp sometime for 2-channel.


----------



## RayL Jr.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *RayL Jr -
> 
> 
> I would be vary wary of crossing the G1 that low. You would need an extremely sharp slope to avoid damage to the ribbon. There is a reason they recommend crossing at 1500 3rd order. I don't know if he'd tell you (or he publishes this information), but you might want to ask George Short (North Creek) what kind of a slope he uses crossing at 1300.
> 
> 
> - Jim*



I was thinking just that. It had me wondering with real steep slopes if it was possible from an Audiogon listing:


"_For sale, new in the box, pair of Aurum Cantus G1 Ribbon tweeters. These are the very finest treble reproducers on the planet. Only the Raven R3.1 compares. These can be crossed as low as 900hz with an active crossover, and typical range is 1khz-1.5khz. They have a clarity/transparency/air/detail like nothing else. Please, serious buyers only. These go for $1000 including the ribbons. My price is very fair.


Rated impedance: 8

Rated Power: 100W

Sensitivity: 102dB/W/M

Frequency range: 900Hz-40kHz

Ribbon dimension(mm): 14.5×150×0.01

Ribbon shape: wave

Magnet: magnet shielded

Recommended frequency cut: 1500Hz /3rd order

External dimension: 106W×190H×110D

Weight: 3.80Kg/pc http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ull&1085918136_ " (I had it cached from Google, now expired)


I figure with 100 watts at 1500 Hz 3rd order passive (the slope George seems to be using), 32 watts or so would be "safe" power handling for 900 Hz crossover 8th order. The BSS fds-366t active crossover unit even has a Neville Thiele Method filters steeper than 8th order LW slpoes.


Still comes out to 114 dB at 2 meters for 32 watts. I know with E-Speakers cheap replacements & instructions are available, though I don't want to be changing out the ribbon all the time... I guess it wouldn't hurt to ask George, as I also like the custom Scan-Speak 18W/8545 7" drivers he uses, look like they can be crossed right with a sub for a real nice full-range 3-way.


----------



## BigguyZ

Calabs- I would be interested in that kit possibly. I'll have to wait until I get the money from the insurance claim- but then I will be able to finish my Audax kit. Next then would be the Subwoofer, and after that possibly an amp.


Jeff- any particular reason you're looking for a tube amp? Just curious. I'm more looking for a MOSFET amp, for a 5.1 setup, though there are few kits/ designs I've found online... Tube amps seems to be popular in DIY though...


----------



## moonhawk

George Short is very helpful. He usually gives out all sorts of tech details, including crossover slopes on the Northcreek website.


He also is helpful on the phone, and has been very patient with me answering e-mails.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

BGZ,

I'm interested in building a tube amp for 2-channel only. I use an HK AVR 7200 for my HT setup.


The tube amp thing is just me wanting to try something new. I have a Denon DRA 1025 that is 12-yrs old and still a killer. It outperformed quite a few others when it was new (Carver, Adcom and some others I can't recall). I'd have to build different speakers to go with a tube amp and move the MBOW1/Denon setup somewhere else...if I did it.

Jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *Calabs- I would be interested in that kit possibly. I'll have to wait until I get the money from the insurance claim- but then I will be able to finish my Audax kit. Next then would be the Subwoofer, and after that possibly an amp.
> 
> 
> Jeff- any particular reason you're looking for a tube amp? Just curious. I'm more looking for a MOSFET amp, for a 5.1 setup, though there are few kits/ designs I've found online... Tube amps seems to be popular in DIY though...*


----------



## RayL Jr.

Well, those designs from North Creek really got me interested in MTM or D'Apollito designs - a tweeter between 2 midrange drivers. In parallel, you get a 6 dB increase from the mids. The North Creek design also has a unique additional horizontal rear mounted ribbon "ambience tweeter". But I may want to mount MTM's in-wall, the mids & bass should sound pretty good with eliminated diffraction & the dual mid design - along with the ribbon's highs.










North Creek also has the NORTH LEVIATHAN (towards bottom of page) 18" subwoofer. I'm also looking at the Rythmik DirectServo Powered Subwoofer Kit posted by Calabs & checking out Hartley sub driivers.


----------



## moonhawk

Jeff said:


"I'd have to build different speakers to go with a tube amp and move the MBOW1/Denon setup somewhere else...if I did it."



Jeff...Check out the newest Northcreek:

http://northcreekmusic.com/Catamount/CatamountInfo.htm 


"This loudspeaker was designed specifically for tube amplification and in particular SET's"


NOT CHEAP...You've been warned.


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *Calabs- I would be interested in that kit possibly. I'll have to wait until I get the money from the insurance claim- but then I will be able to finish my Audax kit. Next then would be the Subwoofer, and after that possibly an amp.
> *



Just shoot me a PM if you (or anyone) has any questions about the kit.

Ralph


----------



## RayL Jr.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by moonhawk_
> *Jeff...Check out the newest Northcreek:
> 
> http://northcreekmusic.com/Catamount/CatamountInfo.htm
> 
> 
> "This loudspeaker was designed specifically for tube amplification and in particular SET's"*



Can't find the efficiency, but a lot of MTM's seem to do 92-95 dB. I like the idea of SET tube amps as well to try out on them.


One thing I was wondering about is the MTM midrange driver spacing - approaching 1 wavelength there will be vertical lobing. This is of more importance when listening at say 3 feet, than 8 feet. The DIY Phoenix points this out (bottom of page).


This happens with conventional driver spacing as well. I was wondering if one were to cross the 2 mid-woofers themselves - say they both played at 80-1300 Hz (pick any frequency) - the Geometric Mean Crossover between them would be sqrt(80*1300) Hz or 322 Hz. Now at 1300 Hz (which is the tweeter crossover), only 1 woofer is playing that frequency, which should reduce the lobing effect.


One thing is the efficiency will not increase by 6 dB, but 3 dB - because both drivers are not adding the same frequencies together. IOW normally you'd gain 3 dB from impedance drop + 3 dB from 2 drivers acoustically...


There's a non-D' Appolito' Appolito version (or variation of MTM) that I though was similar, but just crosses the mids differently...


----------



## catapult

Ray, what you are describing is the popular MMT or 2.5-way configuration. There is actually no loss of sensitivity relative to a conventional 2-way MTM. The reason is the so-called baffle step compensation that all good crossovers incorporate. Because of their wavelengths, high frequencies radiate mostly forward and low frequencies radiate in all directions. That means the highs have to be padded down something like 6dB to get flat on-axis response. In a 2-way MTM, both woofers have equal baffle step comp. In a 2.5-way, the rolloff is all done in the .5 woofer. Either way, at low frequencies, both woofers are playing at full power and that's what determines the sensitivity of the system.


But I digress. A 2.5-way MMT does indeed have better vertical polar resonse than an MTM using the same drivers.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Thanks catapult.







Also called a TMM 2.5 - "I went with a TMM design, where the tweeter is situated on top, and then 2 midwoofers underneath (the photo up above shows what I'm describing). The upper midwoofer is used for handle the bass/midrange up to the crossover frequency with the tweeter, and it runs all the way through its frequency response. The lower midwoofer is used to defeat the baffle step loss that occurs when bass from a speaker radiates all around, in 4pi speace, and it runs between its low end response to somewhere around 500Hz, which is where the baffle step loss starts to dissapate as the rest of the frequency spectrum becomes more directional and radiates in 2pi space - in front of its baffle (front panel). Thus this design is called a 2.5-way design. Conventional TM speakers require the tweeter's output to be shelved down so that the baffle step loss is minimized, but this means the overall speaker efficiency drops by 3dB to 6dB depending on where the speakers are placed in a room. This means adding in some baffle step compensation in the crossover network." - http://www.io.com/~patman/s1.html 


I was ignoring the baffle step part because I was thinking of a in-wall or infinite baffle version too. Maybe for a MTM 2.5 way ? Also in room baffle step correction can vary from 3-6 dB once you really measure it & design an RL network .


Also I was looking at a flat baffle, & with an optional digital active crossover (bi-amp the MTM/MMT...) to time align the drivers & fine tune everything. Either way, it's all relative. Though I posted a few DIY speaker links - this topic might be better off in Audio Theory, Setup & Chat...


----------



## BigguyZ

Calabs- I don't have too many questions about the sub. It looks like what I'm looking for. Fairly small, and from your review it sounds like it has good performance in both music and HT applications. I'm not really thy type who likes the walls to rattle when I watch a movie. I'd much rather have accuracy than SPLs. Frankly, I get so worried I'm bothering my neighbors I'm pretty sure that I'd have the sub toned down fairly significantly. But it looks like a good deal for the $$- unless you have another recomendation. It is at the higher-end of my budget, as I have a lot of other things I want to invest in for my theater- such as replaceing my 27" TV....


EDIT: I actually do have a question now- How much of a difference do you think it'd be to step down to the 250W kit that is coming in a month or so? If it wouldn't affect extension or accuracy, that may be a better option for me.


----------



## moonhawk

BigguyZ


Check this one out...

http://northcreekmusic.com/Drivers/Poseidon1.htm


----------



## catapult

Ray,


Yep, an inwall or IB config changes everything. You won't really gain any sensitivity from using two woofers in a 2.5-way, over one driver, because only one is playing by the time you get up to the XO freq. And, if the drivers have flat response, a 2.5-way will give you too much bass.


Assuming the drivers have pretty flat response, I'd use either one or two with a 2-way XO, depending on the relative sensitivity of the woofers and the tweeter. You don't want to put yourself in a spot where the woofers (either one or two) are more sensitive than the tweeter. Adding resistors to the woofer circuit to balance levels is a Bad Thing (Martha).


----------



## RayL Jr.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by catapult_
> *Ray,
> 
> 
> Yep, an inwall or IB config changes everything. You won't really gain any sensitivity from using two woofers in a 2.5-way, over one driver, because only one is playing by the time you get up to the XO freq.*



If you have 2 identical 8 ohm mid-woofers wired in parallel - the .5 mid-woofer has a low frequency pass for say 3-4 dB BSC (baffle step correction) but is playing at 4 ohms (1/2 impedance of 8 ohms which would be for a single driver). Wouldn't the combined highs from the mid-woofers (with the .5 one) be 3 dB more efficient vs. a single driver?


Resistors to pad levels IMO are not as bad as they say, especially with good ones. But padding a 102 dB ribbon tweeter, you'd want all the dB's you can get from the mids.










MTM's bi-amped (2 mid-woofers with their own amp) would be a good thing, especially with digital active crossovers because of all the adjustments you can easily make: driver dB level, time delay, crossover slopes... Though expensive, Behringer has some inexpensive digital active crossovers, if you don't need too much filtering...



PS - The example in the 1st paragraph wasn't for an in-wall MTM, but an in room MTM 2.5 speaker.


With no BSC needed for in-wall, both mid-woofers frequencies would have to be split to keep things even - e.g. into a 1.0 woofer, but at 4 ohms, not 8 ohms. That's why I thought it 2 mid-woofers would still be 3 dB more efficient over a single one - you're just taking 3 dB away acoustically.


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *Calabs- I don't have too many questions about the sub. It looks like what I'm looking for. Fairly small, and from your review it sounds like it has good performance in both music and HT applications. I'm not really thy type who likes the walls to rattle when I watch a movie. I'd much rather have accuracy than SPLs. Frankly, I get so worried I'm bothering my neighbors I'm pretty sure that I'd have the sub toned down fairly significantly. But it looks like a good deal for the $$- unless you have another recomendation. It is at the higher-end of my budget, as I have a lot of other things I want to invest in for my theater- such as replaceing my 27" TV....
> 
> 
> EDIT: I actually do have a question now- How much of a difference do you think it'd be to step down to the 250W kit that is coming in a month or so? If it wouldn't affect extension or accuracy, that may be a better option for me.*



BigguyZ,

If you're looking at a different amp, then the kit doesn't help you. The amp and it's servo circuitry is designed for the driver and enclosure size. Depending on the room size, it's quite possible to step down to 250W. Again, any servo controlled system typically requires a big amp to drive the system in a relatively small enclosure. Does this answer your question adequately?


----------



## Kensai

So, I've got a pair of old Fisher floorstanders (880s) with 15" woofers that I'm using as subs. Got an assortment of small "circuit board" amps meant for PC speakers that I'm feeding just the sub output from into the Fishers (maybe 20 watts each), and they're working very well for my application. Near field, fairly low volume (even though I seem to have at least 20dB of headroom on the little amps; guess the old drivers are fairly efficient).


Anyhow, I'm wanting to sacrifice these things to building a "real" sub. I'd like to be able to use both drivers in the same unit somehow, both firing the same direction, firing opposite directions out of phase, whatever. I've even got a beefier amp that has dual channel sub out and like 25-30 watt per that I could use (I'm not using it now as it would need to be mounted into an enclosure and will not sit out on its own very well).


I'm looking for a design to use at least the 2 15" drivers, something hopefully inexpensive, hopefully relatively small (like maybe the size of just one of the Fishers; they're huge and really overwhelm my space), maybe something interesting. I've thought of doing a short sonotube with a driver at either end. I've thought of just your conventional box, maybe something premade but with a front/rear or even L/R or perpendicular configuration for the drivers.


The only real requirement, is that I need a sub that responds up to 200hz (the amps I use right now do a 3rd order cut at 200hz, but that's not actually necessary since I'm using the sub out from a Pioneer receiver that has a 200hz crossover point). I don't really need any more SPL than I'm already getting (I can easily go way over the tolerances of my ears and those of folks at the other end of the house just with what I've got), though I might be interested in new amps if it might facilitate the design (maybe I just need a monoblock or something to drive it, something I can just run a speaker line from to terminal jacks on the sub; most sub amps seem to have their highest cut around 170 or so which just won't do it).


I have very little in the way of tools, skills or budget, but I can get help (at least with the tools and skills) and don't really have any expecations for appearance (will be hiding behind a desk in the basement).


Anyone have and words of wisdom or some interesting spots to jump off on designing something for my purpose?


Thanks,

Kensai


----------



## timle

I finished my audax about a week ago. Took a picture of each today. I wanted to thank all you guys for the great posts and the inspiration to do this. I think they sound great. They (and I) are awaiting their new home in my house being built, before then I plan to build stands to put them on. That way they won't have to rest on my old speakers and the rears can be at the right height. Thanks again guys.


Link with pictures
http://timle.phpwebhosting.com/Tim/custom.php?id=7


----------



## BigguyZ

timle-

Those look good. Glad to hear you like them. I haven't been able to work on my speakers since I have no tools- nor any free $$ right now to buy the parts. Funny thing though- I too am upgrading to the Audax kit from Wharfedales. What model do you have?? Mine are SP-87s, the sale of which I'm hoping will pay for a new router, and the center speaker kit from Madisound.


----------



## Johnla

If anyone still needs some Audax TM025F1 tweeters, you better run over to parts express before 5pm 05/03/2004!!!

Because they have them on sale as their current "deal of the day, for only $9.87 each.


----------



## J. L.

timle,


Very nice looking speakers...


They do not look like DIY. I hope you have pictures of them in the construction phase because visitors to your theater will not believe you built them yourself.


Good luck with them... They will be the perfect accessory for the theater in your new house.


Joe L.


----------



## BigguyZ

John- what's the normal price on them?? Would you save money buying parts from PE and assmebling XOs rather than getting a kit from audax?


----------



## Johnla

Normal price is about $16 each from parts express on them, and almost $20 from madisound. So $9.87 is a great price for those tweeters. And also, there are rumors now going around. That Audax is going to stop selling raw drivers. Which would be the end of using them in the DIY market. So it might be best to start thinking about grabbing any of the Audax drivers that you still may need for the future. Even though you may not plan on using or needing them right away.

As far as making the x-over yourself cheaper, or buying just the pre-made x-over from madisound. I would guess you would save money either way, by buying the tweeters at under $10 each from parts express, when madisound shows them being almost $20 each from them.


----------



## BigguyZ

Are any other drivers on sale??


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *Are any other drivers on sale??*



Yes, but none of the other ones are Audax drivers. Here is the DOTD PAGE where you will find the Audax TM025F1 tweeter for $9.87, but remember that price is only good until 5pm TODAY.


----------



## BigguyZ

um.... not trying to be a smart alec- but it's after 5PM and they're still 9.87. Though I will still try to jump on that deal ASAP. I Guess I'll not get the kit, and build the x-overs. Would Madisound offer the kit x-over only? That way I could buy the drivers/ terminal cups and completely finish the cabinets without having to spend as much...


----------



## Johnla

Hmmmmm, maybe they just decided to make $9.87 the regular price now. But they did say it was supposed to be good only until 5pm on 5/3/04. So who knows????

Yes I would think madisound would gladly sell you just the x-over. Either way, assembled by them or only as the raw parts. If you were to assemble the x-overs yourself, it may or may not be cheaper to buy those parts along with the "cups" from parts express also. And possibly save some money on shipping, if you ordered it all with the drivers. Because I ordered 8 of the tweeters this morning for possible future use, and it was only $6.48 for the shipping.


Yeah, that's right... I have no real plans right now for using the tweeters. But at that price, I just could not turn them down either.


----------



## BigguyZ

That's a lot of tweeters. The only reason I'd buy an excess is to have a spare if I blew one on my HT set. Otherwise, I'm not going to buy parts for future projects unless I knew I'd use them- I'm not going to design a speaker around the drivers I have. I'll stick to pre-designed speakers thank you very much.


Anyways, I may just buy like 2 tweeters and still get the packages from madisound. I added up the costs and the kits are still cheaper- based on the x-over cost estimates that people've had in the part lists.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *I'll stick to pre-designed speakers thank you very much.
> 
> 
> Anyways, I may just buy like 2 tweeters and still get the packages from madisound. I added up the costs and the kits are still cheaper- based on the x-over cost estimates that people've had in the part lists.*



Well, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but parts express now has them back priced at $15.20 each. So it looks like they definitely ended the $9.87 sale price on them now.



But as for why I kinda did what I did... Well the only reason I ordered 8, is because that would allow me to build a 7.1 setup, and still have a spare. Just in case Audax does in fact, stop the offering of raw driver sales in the future like it is rumored to happen.


And, I don't blame you for just wanting to stay with a tried and proven design. So don't worry, there's nothing at all wrong with doing that! Not to mention, that you choosing the Audax HT design as the one to use, was a great choice to go with. And I'm sure you will not be sorry for doing so.


It's just that I'm one of those kind of guys, that just can't leave well enough alone, and I like to play around with different ways and options of doing things. And sometimes it ends up for the better, and other times maybe the worse. But I guess that all comes from being a mechanic for the last 30+ years. And not being able to resist the urge at times to mess around with things. At the worst I learn what not to do the next time. And at the best, I end up with something I may like just a little or a lot more.


----------



## BigguyZ

Well If they upped the price back again- I'm most definitely going to just stick with the kits. But I will try to order them as soon as I can afford to. As long as they don't stop selling raw drivers in the next month, I should be OK. Man I can't wait until I can get a router again. :-(


I've had a lot of fun with this so far- I think I definitely could get into building speakers as a hobby. How hard is it to sell DIY speakers online, I wonder? I'd go for selling them at cost- or maybe a little bit more- to "support the hobby".


----------



## jsalk

For those who have requested updates, here's what we've been up to lately.


Due to frequent requests, we've developed a Veracity center channel. This is a sealed MTM center channel using a pair of shielded W18's and a G2 pure ribbon tweeter with a rectangular face plate. The faceplate was chosen to allow closer spacing between the W18's. The xover design is by Dennis Murphy.











Here's the latest Veracity HT1 Special Edition in redwood burl with curly redwood front baffles:











I have pictures of more new speakers if anyone is interested.


A Veracity 3-way is about 2 months out, as is a complete HT system for in-wall and up-against-the-wall applications. A little farther out is a full-range, high sensitivity, cost-is-no-object floor stander.


The drivers have all been pretty much selected and we'll be building prototypes for these in the next few weeks.


I'll keep you posted on the results.


- Jim


----------



## BigguyZ

Jim- any updates on getting a kit for the veracitys? I'm asking more for curiosity's sake- as if I did plan to build a pair it wouldn't be for quite some time.


----------



## jsalk

BigguyZ -


I just haven't gotten around to doing the cabinet plans yet (been too busy and it always seems to get put on the back burner). But if anyone wants to build a pair, I would work with them.


Where in South Minneapolis do you live? I just installed a complete system (a pair of Veracity HT1's, a Veracity HTC center channel, a pair of MBOW1's for rear channels and a SW2 subwoofer in Shorewood (Excelsior). (I am originally from Minnesota and get back there 3 or 4 times a year.)


If you'd like to hear that system some time, I'm sure the guy I built them for would be happy to give you an audition. E-mail me if you are interested.


- Jim


----------



## BigguyZ

I live in Bloomington. I'd love to hear the system- it's outta my budget (for now), but I've always been interested in how those veracitys sound...


----------



## jsalk

BigguyZ -


E-mail me at [email protected] and I will set you up with him.


- Jim


----------



## Ten 99

Jim, your cabinets always look fantastic, and you get some incredibly beautiful veneers. Is your source for your veneers a secret, or would you share?


----------



## jsalk

Chris -


I buy most of my veneers on Ebay. You can see pictures of what you're buying and the prices are very reasonable. "thouge" is the main vendor I use.


But...I buy all raw veneer and use a veneer press to apply iy. Buying raw, you get a better selection of some awesome grain and figuring - veneers you probably won't find in backed sheet goods (or would cost a fortune if you did).


Raw veneer is also thicker (rather than a very thin veneer on some sort of backing). Which means sand-throughs are much less of a problem.


Often these veneers do not come in widths wide enough for side panels (or even fonts and backs). So you need to get real good at splicing. It took a little learning but, with many veneers, I am able to splice and you can't find the splice after the speaker is finished.


But I have found that you really can't use raw veneer with contact cement or without a veneer press. Even then, it can be tricky. But when you get it right, it is perfectly flat and will never develop blisters or bubbles. It is the only way to go.


I realize this may not be all that helpful, but that is what I do.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys, I just can't stop! I've built a full set of Audax (7 speakers), 2 subwoofers, 2 MBOW1s, 2 Dayton 2-ways. Now, I'm going to build some high efficiency horns. I'm leaning toward a folded horn design using Fostex drivers and possibly a Fostex Super Tweeter. I'm also considering one of the horn designs by Pi Speakers (new 8-pi horn) and my third choice is the HE10 from Adire (non-horn high efficiency). The folded horn is a bit smaller than the near-corner Pi designs which can get huge. I kinda like the new BK-16 folded horn design at Madisound because it is .75" W x 14.75" D x 29" T. The MBOW1s on their stand are taller than that. Also, I'm ready for a new challenge other than a box with the simple internal baffles or sub-enclosures I've built. The folded horn is a bit more complicated. Why am I doing this? I'm building two monoblock SETs and a preamp for a new 2-channel system. My wife is going to have a problem with larger speakers. She loves the stand mounted MBOW1s and their small footprint.


On another note, the HT adventure could be renewed. We may be building a new house shortly. If so, the HT will be designed after I see the basement layout. I'll let the builder do the framing, wiring and basic insulation. I'll do the important acoustic stuff. The Audax speakers will definitely be part of it and probably be more concealed. If only this damn economy would slow down just a little so I can get a good interest rate;-)


----------



## usabrian




> Quote:
> But I have found that you really can't use raw veneer with contact cement or without a veneer press. Even then, it can be tricky. But when you get it right, it is perfectly flat and will never develop blisters or bubbles. It is the only way to go.



I agree with Jim mostly but I have found that the dry glue method works really well for raw veneer if you are not having to do any seeming. If so, its a bit more difficult but using a certain "buckling" method it can be done. The problem is that when you iron it it shrinks up so you have to allow for that overlap and overcompensate a bit buckling it at the seem. As it shrinks it will set a really strong seem.


And raw veneer is the only way to go imho. veneersupplies.com is an excellent source. Also constantines.


Brian


----------



## jsalk

usabrian -


I have not tried the dr glue method. I am intrigued. Could you explain the "buckling method" you mentioned?


- Jim


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *usabrian -
> 
> 
> I have not tried the dr glue method. I am intrigued. Could you explain the "buckling method" you mentioned?
> 
> 
> - Jim*




Jim,

If you're not familiar with the dry glue method, check out these articles. The second project came out a little better after learning from the first.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_3_3/v3n3d.html 

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ferjune98.html 


The buckling method merely overlaps the seams of the veneer, so when you iron on the veneer, the overlap compensates for any shrinkage that occurs during the ironing process. It's probably best to try a test seam to see just how much shrinkage you'd get and add that much overlap to the seam.


BTW - Nice job on the speakers..............they're beautiful!!


Ralph Calabria


----------



## jsalk

Ralph -


Thanks for the links. I was aware of the dry glue method, although I never used it. I just never came across the term "buckling method" before.


I'll try that method tomorrow and see how it compares.


- Jim


----------



## usabrian

I read about it in a veneering book. I think the author referred to it as a compression joint because what you do is you put one side ironed down completely and then the matching piece you place a 1/8-inch diameter rod about two inches away from the seam and you iron the seam and the veneer in place around the rod. Then you remove the rod and you compress the seam together. It creates truly the tightest seem possible as long as you learn the tricks (dont wet the veneer too much, etc). It takes some practice but one thing I have learned is that it is better to error to too much buckle rather than too little. Using an iron and steem you can basically get rid of any excess wood.


One nice thing about the iron technique is that you can do some fairly tight radiuses with it. But it is a bit of a pain to spend all that time to glue the wood and the piece.


Jim,your site was a real inspiration for me to take my Adire 281 and LCC kit to the next level with veneers.


Here is a link to some photos:
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/usa...rian/my_photos 


In the end I need a much more refined speaker and am interested in your Veracity design as I have some old growth rosewood and curly maple I happened upon. Would the Veracity be suitable for a sizable theater or is there a larger floorstander version available if not? Have you compared it to some of the othe DIY speakers such as those by Northcreek? I love the looks of those drivers.


Brian


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by usabrian_
> *
> 
> One nice thing about the iron technique is that you can do some fairly tight radiuses with it. But it is a bit of a pain to spend all that time to glue the wood and the piece.
> 
> 
> Brian*



Jim,

I agree that applying the glue to the wood (MDF) and veneer is somewhat tedious, but you'd still have to do the same for, say, contact cement (CC). I tried CC, and just couldn't bear the fumes. Plus the cement was difficult to deal with once dried, and it tended to soak into the cut seams of the MDF. Overall, the glued technique benefits far outweigh CC (IMHO of course!).










Ralph


----------



## jsalk

usabrian -


That combination of rosewood and curly maple is really sharp. Great job, I'm impressed!


I use Veracity speakers all around in my rather large home theater. Combined with a good sub, it is a truly awesome combination. Even my wife, who has no interest in things audio, commented that it is the best theater sound she has ever hear (note, she did not say "home theater" sound).


The thing I like about it is that it never calls attention to itself. It creates a very natural 360-degree sound field that is detailed and transparent.


But...as with any 2-way, you need a good sub. This is especially true of the Veracity. The W18's are about the most detailed and accurate mid-woofer available. But they do not play quite as deep as, say, a less-detailed paper cone ScanSpeak 8545 7".


For that reason, I am developing a Veracity 3-way. While you never know until the design is complete, it will probably use a custom 10" TC Sounds subwoofer driver (very similar to the TC drivers used in the Sunfire subs) for the woofer. This will take the F3 from the mid 40's in the 2-ways to just under 30Hz. According to my modeling, it should be within +/- 1 db from about 34Hz to over 25,000Hz (beyond audibility).


The TC Sounds drivers are being built next week and I will be creating sawdust as soon as they arrive. Dennis Murphy will be doing the crossover design. This will be my new flagship model.


As for comparison with George Shorts designs, I have not had the opportunity to make a direct comparison. North Creek designs are extremely high quality and among the best DIY designs available. Since he is using the same family of ribbons in his new designs, I would expect the sound to be fairly comparable. The only differences would be, perhaps, midrange detail and F3. He is using slightly less detailed ScanSpeak drivers in his designs. So his 2-way designs probably have a lower F3. The TC Sounds drivers will close this gap and then some.


I hope this answers your questions.


Once again, great job!


- Jim


----------



## usabrian

That sounds great!


Brian


----------



## WGubbe

Hello everyone,

I have taken the plunge and will follow in the footsteps of all the other intrepid builders of the Audax HT system. I picked up all the components last week and will get my MDF this week, then sawdust. I was fortunate to find a supplier for the Audax kit in Canada and indeed only about 20 minutes from where I live just south of Montreal. Check out their website:

http://www.solen.ca 


BTW, when I picked up my kit it was all packed in one box. It was only when I arrived at home and checked the contents did I realize that they had given me the 6.8 mh inductance L1 in the center chan woofer Xover as the aircore version. The thing is beautiful but huge. I am really wondering where I will mount this in the enclosure. Anyone else use this inductor? I always see the ferrite core on the pic's.

Anyway, I will keep you advised as to my projects advancement and with pic's if possible. I give all my thanks to all those who have built this system in the past and for the wealth of information that they have left here.


Regards, Bill


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WGubbe_
> *Hello everyone,
> 
> BTW, when I picked up my kit it was all packed in one box. It was only when I arrived at home and checked the contents did I realize that they had given me the 6.8 mh inductance L1 in the center chan woofer Xover as the aircore version. The thing is beautiful but huge. I am really wondering where I will mount this in the enclosure. Anyone else use this inductor? I always see the ferrite core on the pic's.
> 
> Regards, Bill*



How much does that beast weight? At 6.8 mH, it must be pretty massive (and very expensive as well). As a general rule, the air core will give the speaker a "measurably" better sound quality. Whether it is actually audible is another question.


----------



## WGubbe

Calabs,


Yes it is massive. It measures about 5 in. diameter and almost 2 in. thick. The air core is about 3 in. diameter. And it probably weighs about 5 lbs.

I didn't realize they would provide this because I had only seen the ferrite core in pic's. But I have it and for some perverse reason would like to use it. Just how to build the xover and install it is another matter. BTW, I have read your article on this subject and found it very informative. You even mentioned the air core vs ferrite core. lol.

Thanks, Bill


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WGubbe_
> *Calabs,
> 
> 
> Yes it is massive. It measures about 5 in. diameter and almost 2 in. thick. The air core is about 3 in. diameter. And it probably weighs about 5 lbs.
> 
> I didn't realize they would provide this because I had only seen the ferrite core in pic's. But I have it and for some perverse reason would like to use it. Just how to build the xover and install it is another matter. BTW, I have read your article on this subject and found it very informative. You even mentioned the air core vs ferrite core. lol.
> 
> Thanks, Bill*



I guess the nice thing about the woofer xover is it's not that complicated so the air core may fit either lying down or upright (see xover w/ferrite core attached). Depending on whether you add bracing or not, that may dictate how you lay the inductor. Probably best to put it flat and make the board slightly bigger. I love to take some measurements on this speaker to compare the ferrite to the air core!


----------



## WGubbe

Hello everyone,

I want to buy my MDF so I can start building my Audax HT. Looking at the Audax plans I notice that all the panels are 3/4 in. except for the front baffles which are spec'd at 1 in. Many builders on this thread have laminated 2 X 3/4 panels for the front baffle and at least one builder did the same for the rear baffle. Why?? Is it because the Audax plans are to be found wanting in the area of rigidity or vibration? Or was it because the 1 in. MDF was not available in their area. I had a hard time finding the 1 in. in my area. And finally maybe it was just for insurance in case of a problem. This will be the first speakers that I have ever built and I would like to start off on the right foot. Can anyone with the experience advise me as to the best way to go? By the plans or a more beefed up version.


Thank you, Bill


----------



## jsalk

Wgrubbe -


Either approach will work fine. Laminated 3/4" will work just fine. It makes little difference and only serves to increase the mass of the cabinet, which is good. I wouldn't waste time searching for 1" if it is not readily available.


----------



## WGubbe

jsalk


Thank you for the reply. Yes, I guess it doesn't make a great deal of difference. I will buy the 3/4 in. and the 1 in. for the baffles tomorrow.


BTW, your veracity speakers are gorgeous. The veneer is marvelous.

Regards, Bill


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WGubbe_
> *Hello everyone,
> 
> I want to buy my MDF so I can start building my Audax HT. Looking at the Audax plans I notice that all the panels are 3/4 in. except for the front baffles which are spec'd at 1 in. Many builders on this thread have laminated 2 X 3/4 panels for the front baffle and at least one builder did the same for the rear baffle. Why?? Is it because the Audax plans are to be found wanting in the area of rigidity or vibration? Or was it because the 1 in. MDF was not available in their area. I had a hard time finding the 1 in. in my area. And finally maybe it was just for insurance in case of a problem. This will be the first speakers that I have ever built and I would like to start off on the right foot. Can anyone with the experience advise me as to the best way to go? By the plans or a more beefed up version.
> 
> 
> Thank you, Bill*



Hi Bill,

As you may know, panel thickness to the 3rd power it equal to rigidness. So you can see why some use thicker front and back baffles. The purpose for using thicker front and rear baffles is to mostly compensate for those huge holes you're putting in the baffles for speakers, vents, terminal cups, etc. This severely weakens the rigidity of the panel. For my Audax A652s, I used a front baffle that was 2.25" thick (2 X 0.75" MDF and 1 X 0.75 BB plywood). Most designs rely on internal bracing to strengthen the side walls, which is why you really don't have to go overboard on thickness there. If you're planning on buying 1" and 3/4", you can laminate one of each to get a very strong front baffle!


----------



## WGubbe

Calabs,


Thank you very much for your reply to my question on baffle thickness. It is very clear to me now why such panel thickness is required and I will build my speakers accordingly. Thanks again

Regards, Bill


----------



## timle

I used 3/4 inch * 2 because it was easy to buy 3/4 inch MDF. didn't see any 1 inch MDF around. Its nice to have that extra thickness when flush mounting the drivers, I had to take out a good 1/4 inch to get the woofers flush.


----------



## Vper

I take it the cabinets are screwed and glued.


How far apart are the screws? Or how many screws did you use to assemble the cabinets?


Thanks


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *I take it the cabinets are screwed and glued.
> 
> 
> How far apart are the screws? Or how many screws did you use to assemble the cabinets?
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Sorry, but which cabinets are you referring to?










Ralph


----------



## Vper

Speaker cabinets, or maybe I should say enclosures.


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *Speaker cabinets, or maybe I should say enclosures.*



OK, I know you were referring to speaker cabinets......................I was curious if you wanted to know WHO'S speaker cabinets you were referring to...........or was it a general question for all to answer, on how cabinets are assembled?


----------



## Vper

General


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *General
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Grant? Patton? MacArthur?

















Since I don't have any special woodworking tools like biscuit joiner, etc., I use the old butt end joints. I dry fit the joint first to make sure there are no surprises. The I use a couple of 45 degree clamps and tighten them just snug. I back off on the clamps, place a bead of yellow glue on the seam, then re-tighten the clamps making sure the seams are aligned. I then drill pilot holes about 3-4" apart along the joint. I use drywall screws to pull the joint together until all the excess glue squeezes out. I remove the clamps, wipe up the excess glue, and move on to the next joint. When the glue is dry, I remove the screws and cover the holes with wood putty. I'm sure there are many variations on the theme, but this has worked quite nicely for me. For a more detailed description of what I mention above, go here............

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...html#enclosure 


Good luck on your project!

Ralph


----------



## Vper

Cool,


Thanks


----------



## Randy Mathis




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Kensai_
> *I have very little in the way of tools, skills or budget, but I can get help (at least with the tools and skills) and don't really have any expecations for appearance (will be hiding behind a desk in the basement).
> 
> 
> Anyone have and words of wisdom or some interesting spots to jump off on designing something for my purpose?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kensai*



This may not be for what it is that you are looking but it is a way to possibly get what you want without all of the tools and skill...

http://www.f20.parsimony.net/forum36475/


----------



## J. L.

Vper,


I basically did the same as described by Calabs but as well as drilling pilot holes, I also countersunk the screws. Unlike Calibs, I left them in place once the glue was dry. I did not bother to remove them.


I also used wood putty to go over the screws.


In this photo, you can see the spots of wood-patch covering the screws I used to hold my Audax Left/Right enclosures together while the glue dried.


On the front panel of the enclosures I also used quite a few screws to hold the two layers of 3/4 inch MDF together while they dried. Those screws were in addition to the ones used to hold the sides of the enclosure to the top, bottom, etc and spaced randomly across the front panel.


In any case, you can see how far apart I spaced the screws I used.


Joe L.


----------



## IronForge

What do most of you think of the GR Research speakers? ( www.gr-research.com )


AV-1? AV-3? Criterion?


----------



## Vper

J.L.


I remember seeing that photo wwwaaayyyy bbbaaaccckkk...


Thanks for the info!


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *J.L.
> 
> 
> I remember seeing that photo wwwaaayyyy bbbaaaccckkk...
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info!*



Vper,


Yeah, same photo, but I'll bet that you were not looking for spacing of wood-patch covered screws back when you first saw the photo.


Good luck with your project... Hey, how bad can it turn out with several thousand of us following this thread to critique (and guide) you.





















(No pressure)


Just remember, we probably all made the same mistakes you will during construction. It is not rocket science, it is just wood... and almost any error can be corrected. Just stay safe, wear safety glasses, keep all your fingers away from saw blades, etc, and have fun. This is a hobby, and there are plenty of folks following this thread with WAY more experience than me that can offer guidance when needed.


Joe L.


----------



## Vper

J.L.


You're right, I wasn't looking for info, back then, I just thought it was cool that you can build your own speakers that sound like they cost $1,000's.


Remember, safety is no accident!


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by J. L._
> *Vper,
> 
> 
> I basically did the same as described by Calabs but as well as drilling pilot holes, I also countersunk the screws. Unlike Calabs, I left them in place once the glue was dry. I did not bother to remove them.
> 
> 
> I also used wood putty to go over the screws.
> 
> 
> Joe L.
> *



J.L. - I recall when I tried to leave the screws in, I was constantly "hitting" them when I did the roundover of the cabinets. Not good when you see sparks flying out of your cabinet! Not to mention the roundover bit getting ruined. Another reason, although I have not actual experience of this happening, is I didn't want the screws to back out at some later point and start to protrude out of the cabinet (sort of like when nails come out of drywall). This is highly unlikely because they're screws and the glued veneer should hold them snuggly in place.

Ralph


----------



## J. L.

Calabs,


Good point about NOT putting screws where the router bit might hit them when rounding over the edges.


If you look at the photo in my previous post you can see that the screws on the front panel were set in from the rounded over edge. This worked out pretty decent since the outer layer of my front panel was added after the basic box had been assembled and the screws through it were only to hold it (the outer layer of MDF) to the inner layer of the front panel MDF while the glue dried.


The roundover bit did not come anywhere near the embedded screws. As you said, hitting them with the router bit would quickly ruin it.


Joe L.


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by J. L._
> *Calabs,
> 
> 
> If you look at the photo in my previous post you can see that the screws on the front panel were set in from the rounded over edge. This worked out pretty decent since the outer layer of my front panel was added after the basic box had been assembled and the screws through it were only to hold it (the outer layer of MDF) to the inner layer of the front panel MDF while the glue dried.
> 
> 
> Joe L.*



J.L. - You're a better man than I (or a more careful one anyway)!







You assembled the front baffle to the cabinet BEFORE you cut the driver holes? I was deathly afraid that if I made a mistake on the hole cutting, that I would have to somehow remove the front baffle, and in the process, destroy the cabinet. I always make my composite sandwich first, then cut the holes, then glue the front to the cabinet. Same goes for any hole cutting in the back (terminal cup, vents, etc.) Although I have never had a problem, I just don't want to take that chance.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Calabs_
> *J.L. - You're a better man than I (or a more careful one anyway)!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You assembled the front baffle to the cabinet BEFORE you cut the driver holes? I was deathly afraid that if I made a mistake on the hole cutting, that I would have to somehow remove the front baffle, and in the process, destroy the cabinet. I always make my composite sandwich first, then cut the holes, then glue the front to the cabinet. Same goes for any hole cutting in the back (terminal cup, vents, etc.) Although I have never had a problem, I just don't want to take that chance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Actually, I made the driver holes in the inner layer of the front panel before I assembled the enclosure. I also made the holes in the inner layer of the rear panel for the terminal cup and port(s) before assembly. After I assembled the basic enclosure, I glued on solid, slightly oversize outer layers of MDF (without any holes) to the front and back.


Once the glue was dry, I drilled a 1 inch hole in the outer layer of MDF in the middle of where an opening would be, and then used a 1 inch long, flush trimming, roller bearing guided router bit guided by the existing holes in the inner layer of MDF to cut the holes in the outer layer to match.


It was actually pretty easy that way. I assembled the basic enclosure and trimmed all edges flush with my router, then added the outer layer of MDF to the front and rear panels.


As I said earlier, I also made the outer layer of MDF about 1/8th inch oversize in both width and height. I was able to trim it flush with the inner layer (and the rest of the enclosure) with the same flush trimming bit.


By building the enclosure the way I did, I was able to make the holes in the inner layers of MDF before assembling the enclosure. In that way I did not give myself the opportunity to make any mistakes that would be difficult to recover from after assembly.


So, I'm pretty sure I am not a better man than you







, I just did not have a router bit that could cut through 1 1/2 inch of MDF to make the holes. I had to do it one layer at a time, using a standard cutting bit for the inner layer using a circle cutting jig, and then a roller guided bit for the outer layer.

















Joe L.


----------



## BigguyZ

Hey guys- been working 70 hour weeks to save up some money. Have bills to pay and I need to replace all the stolen tools- there will be no insurance claim. ANYWAYS- I was able to order at least one kit so far; the center. I was spurred on by the rumour that they won't be offerred much longer. So, I got everything in. But I have one question concerning the drivers. The stickers on each driver has the correct model #, but the back of the cone looks like it's paper. I don't know if Aerogel should be smooth on both sides, and I know that Audax makes the series drivers with treated paper cones.... Just want to make sure I wasn't shipped the wrong stuff... Also there seems to be an error in Madisound's drawing for the crossovers. They mention a polarity error for the woofers, so I'm not sure exactly were to connect the wires for each crossover/ driver. Any pics of the madisound kit x-overs connected? Maybe I missed an older pic...


----------



## DLK




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *Also there seems to be an error in Madisound's drawing for the crossovers. They mention a polarity error for the woofers, so I'm not sure exactly were to connect the wires for each crossover/ driver.*



The common confusion about the woofer polarity on the center channel stems from Audax's original drawings, which were incorrect. Madisound appears to have this correct, i.e., woofer polarity is inverted to accommodate the second-order crossover.


-Dan


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey guys, back at the end of March, I ordered another woofer and tweeter form PE and never even opened the boxes to inspect them. However, I was going to have a look so I could answer BGZ's question about the back and look what I found check this out: http://europa70.tripod.com/damaged_audax001.htm 


BTW, BGZ, my woof looks like paper on the backside also.

Jeff


----------



## DLK

Damn. It looks like Jim Carrey used it in the opening scene of Ace Ventura. I do hope that PE took care of this.


-Dan


----------



## BigguyZ

Wow Jeff- That sucks. Nice to know I haven't been ripped off. I think Madisound is reputable, but you never know....


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Well, after opening the speaker last night to check out the construction for BigguyZ, I found the damage. I sent Parts Express an email and even gave them the link to the pictures. Tonight, I have an email from them informing me that my shipment for $0 went out today and they provided a tracking #. I assume they replaced the speaker. That's great service.

jeff


----------



## IronForge

Take a look at this new offering from GR Research..


A different approach to a surround speaker..
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/v...ic.php?t=10915


----------



## WGubbe

Hi everyone,

I have finally started my Audax HT. We have almost finished the center speaker just the ports to install and the x-overs and acoustics foam. Then they will be ready to test. I decided to try the most difficult one first.


I have a question for J. L. if he checks this thread from time to time. J.L. what was the brand name of the black aniline dye that you stained your speakers with? I have checked this thread a number of times and cannot find the name. I have looked locally for something like that and I cannot find anything. Can you help? Thank you.


So on to the left and right mains next. I am trying to locate a digital camera so I can show you my progress. Also I want to show you how I will have built and installed the woofer x-over for the center channel which will contain the enormous L1 aircore inductance that I received when I bought my kit from solen.ca. So I will keep in touch.

Regards, Bill


----------



## J. L.

Bill,


I'm not sure if I ever mentioned the brand name of the company that made the Analine Dye I used for my Audax HT cabinets. I'm pretty sure that I gave a link to it somewhere...


Rather than search for it, I looked it up again... here it is

http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPR...ARTNUM=845-121 


The Dye is made by J. E. Moser and is available from woodworker.com. It is a powder that is mixed with water. I purchased the 1 ounce size and it was enough when mixed with one quart of water to do all the Audax HT set and the stands I made for them.


I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had mixed the entire ounce when I first started construction and kept the balance of the mixed dye solution in a gallon container to be used throughout the remainder of the project. It would be just as easy to mix it as you go but I figured I could get a more even color if I mixed it all at once. (It probably isn't very critical when using black dye, but it might be if matching colors other than black.)


Joe L.


----------



## WGubbe

quote "The Dye is made by J. E. Moser and is available from woodworker.com. It is a powder that is mixed with water. I purchased the 1 ounce size and it was enough when mixed with one quart of water to do all the Audax HT set and the stands I made for them."unquote.


Thank you J.L.

I will see if I can find that here locally. If not I will try an order on the web from the company that you mentioned.

regards, Bill


----------



## Jeff Hovis

PE sent me a brand new Audax driver to replace the "Jim Carrey" delivery. They didn't even ask for the busted one back. I sent them the same site link that I posted for this forum.

jeff



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Hey guys, back at the end of March, I ordered another woofer and tweeter form PE and never even opened the boxes to inspect them. However, I was going to have a look so I could answer BGZ's question about the back and look what I found check this out: http://europa70.tripod.com/damaged_audax001.htm
> 
> 
> BTW, BGZ, my woof looks like paper on the backside also.
> 
> Jeff*


----------



## WGubbe

Hello,


My Audax project is coming along just great. The center is finished with only the foam and x-overs to install and then the speakers then a good test. This is where I have just discovered that I have a problem. I want to temporarily install the speakers and test everything out for a few days before final assembly and then doing the veneer later. I do not like the idea of soldering on the speaker connections to test then re-soldering later on for the final installation after the veneer. I want to use spade lug terminals. Does anyone know what the size is for the speaker terminals? I have checked the web site where I bought my kit and can"t seem to identify what are the sizes for them. Being the weekend they are closed so I can"t call. If anyone knows I would really like to know . TIA.

We started on the front mains yesterday and have everything cut out even the speaker holes. So tomorrow we will start assembly for the fronts. Thanks, Bill


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I believe the connectors are the same size. The thing you should pay attention to is the wire size. You need to make sure the sleeve is large enough to accept your wires. I used 16ga Monster XP inside all my speakers and 12ga everywhere else.


I crimped my connectors to the speakers. I didn't solder them so I could easily change them if necessary. Of course, the xovers are all soldered.

jeff


----------



## WGubbe

Jeff, Thanks for the reply on a Saturday afternoon. The connectors for the Audax woofers are two different sizes pos and neg., the same for the mid range and the connectors for the tweeters are so small I could not see it even if I measured it with a ruler. I am interested to know the spade lug size male to female for the speaker connectors so I do not have to solder my wires from the x-overs to the speaker terminals. I am very afraid to burn the speaker cones or the wire connections to them.

Thanks, Bill


----------



## Johnla

I think you need both the .110 and 1/4" female quick-disconnects for the Audax speakers.

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....ctGroup_ID=400


----------



## J. L.

WGubbe,


If you don't want to order and wait for them to be delivered you can do as I did and go to your local autozone store.


I described the terminals I purchased there in this message I posted to this thread a bit over a year ago.



> Quote:
> I used .187 inch (4.8mm) female quick disconnect terminals to make the connections to my drivers. I used the same size for both + and - connections. Although they are available at Radio Shack in a terminal assortment they carry, I found the local Autozone parts store carried boxes of 22 for less than it would cost for the two or three assortment packs you would need to buy from RadioShack.
> 
> 
> The terminals are a very tight fit, therefore I "loosened" them up just a tiny bit using the tip of a jewelers screwdriver before attaching them to the terminals on the Audax drivers. I did not want to damage the drivers by applying too much force.



The specific message is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...45#post1705645 


It sound like you will be testing out your Audax project soon. Keep us informed as to your progress.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

You're correct, they are different sizes. I just looked at my spare. I remember now that for the Audax, I did find some smaller ones.

jeff


----------



## WGubbe

Hi everyone,


J.L.


Did you find that the port baffle for the front mains was really 8X8 inches as the design says. Mine doesn't work out that way. I looked again at your photo on page 4 of this thread and it looks like the baffle can only be screwed on one side.

Thanks, Bill


----------



## Davespectral

Hi People.


I just started reading this thread and I have to jump in here. I love speaker building and I have been doing it for a few years now. I am just fascinated with the new tech for dynamic drivers. I even wound up buying L.E.A.P. and L.M.S.


To WGbbe, and all of you who want to solder speaker terminals: Use an ALUMINUM alligator clip, as large as possible, between the hole/wire that you are about to solder, on the speaker terminal and the bottom part of the terminal where the braided wire leading to the voice coil is located. This will draw off the heat (act as a heat sink) before it gets to the tender, braided wire to the coil. The solder won't stick to the aluminum.


Also (I'm sure you guys know this) use a low power iron 10-25 watt or so. First tin the iron tip, and get in and out a.s.a.p. Should take about 2-4 seconds. Obviously, this is for your finished product, because de-soldering is even more intense. This method works for any size speaker-even tweeters.


It hasn't failed me yet. Hope this helps.


Dave Smith


----------



## BigguyZ

What type wire you guys use? I may recommence my building this week. Now that I have some $$ and time (though the time issue may be in question, I'll know more tonight).


----------



## Johnla

For wiring up the X-overs, I have used just normal good quality 14 or 16 gauge speaker wire. And that may even be overkill for the lengths involved in a X-over. But I'd rather use the 14 or 16 gauge myself, just to make sure.


----------



## WGubbe

Hi everyone,


My cabinets for the Audax HT are almost finished and I was working on building my x-overs today. The plans that I have show for the center channel mid range the following:

1. the circuit diagram shows the input passing through a 1.2 mH coil then into a 24 uF capacitor etc.

2. The circuit layout diagram for the 6X7 board (the diagram that shows where to place the components on your board) shows the input passing through the 24 uF capacitor and then the 1.2 mH coil.


Can someone tell me which is the correct way to wire this x-over and if there are other anomalies to be found for the x-over diagrams. This is the only one that I have seen so far.


TIA, Bill


----------



## BigguyZ

What recievers are you guys pushing these with?? I'm looking at upgrading my setup while I have the hookup through work...


----------



## J. L.

WGubbe,


It is not really an anomaly, just basic electronics of components in series.


When two components are wired in *series*, it makes no difference which one comes first physically. Every electron that passes through one of the two must also pass through the other.


Greatly simplified using water instead of electrons, think of the two components as different diameter pieces of pipe, connected end-to-end. The amount of water that can flow through the two is limited by the diameter of the smaller of the two pipes, no matter which pipe comes first.


Therefore, you may place the two series connected components on the board in whatever manner best fits physically.


Keep in mind that it is best if the crossover coils are as far from each other as possible and mounted in different axis to minimize magnetic coupling.


If you are using the PDF posted (fairly) recently in this thread, then all of the other inconsistencies have been corrected in the drawings.


Joe L.


----------



## WGubbe

Thanks J.L.

Yes, I realize for series circuits that what ever component is first does not make a difference to the overall performance of the circuit. But when the plans show two different approaches to the same problem I start to wonder if there is some thing that I am missing i.e. are there other inconsistancies in the design. I am having fun so far and the work is progressing very well. Tomorrow we should finish all the cutting and assembly of the speaker cabinets. I still have to finish the x-overs. So until the next time.

Regards, Bill


Regards, Bill


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *What type wire you guys use? I may recommence my building this week. Now that I have some $$ and time (though the time issue may be in question, I'll know more tonight).*



There are many philosphies for this question. Some like to use 10 g ultra pure copper wire (to ME that's overkill). I would not recommend "zip cord" wire. Certainly one can argue that the lengths used in a speaker are so short that signal loss is minimum.


I look at it as "I'm only going to build these puppies once, so why not just do quality all the way around"? I use the North Creek silver coated 14 g Tef-Flex AG speaker wire.

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/ACCESSORIES.html 


It's color coded, so it makes assembly easier as well. Another benefit of the silver coated wire is it takes solder very well.


As I said, it's a matter of preferrence (and science!). Happy soldering!


Ralph


----------



## Ron_C

Ok, I need a little help with resistors. I need a 18 ohm resistor for the front speakers and can't find one. How do I combine the resistors to create a 18 ohm resistor? Also If I need a 10 ohm resistor at 25 watts, but only have 10 watt resistors, what do I need to combine to get a 10 ohm resistor at around 25 watts? I am pretty new to crossover construction and to this in type of stuff in general.


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ron_C_
> *Ok, I need a little help with resistors. I need a 18 ohm resistor for the front speakers and can't find one. How do I combine the resistors to create a 18 ohm resistor? Also If I need a 10 ohm resistor at 25 watts, but only have 10 watt resistors, what do I need to combine to get a 10 ohm resistor at around 25 watts? I am pretty new to crossover construction and to this in type of stuff in general.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ron*



To get 10 ohms at 25 watts, combine two 20 ohm resistors in parellel. This will half the resistance and double the power. Use the same formula to get to your 18 ohm resistor.


Good luck!


----------



## J. L.

As Calabs said, you can parallel several resistors to get to your desired value.


The example he gave, two 20 ohm resistors in parallel would result in a total resistance of 10 ohms. Rtotal = 1 / ( 1/R1 + 1/R2 + ... )


The power would be shared by both, so the total power rating would be 20 watts. If you also needed 25 watts dissipation and 18 ohms resistance, you would need to use higher power rated resistors or add a third 8 ohm, 10 watt resistor in series with the two you had wired in parallel. Then, you have the correct resistance, but the power rating would be still slightly be more than the single 8 ohm resistor could handle. 8/18 * 25 = 11.11 watts.


In reality, it would probably be just fine since the original designer used the closest rating part they could find in their catalog.


By combining parallel and series resistors you can arrive at the value you need.


Be careful though ... a 15 ohm, 10 watt resistor in series with a 3 ohm, 10 watt resistor DOES NOT result in a 18 ohm, 20 watt resistor.


For any applied voltage, 3/18ths of the voltage (and watts) will be dropped across the 3 ohm resistor and 15/18ths of the voltage (and watts) across the 15 ohm resistor in that combination. It is pretty easy to see that the 15 ohm resistor will be called upon to dissipate far more power (watts) than the 3 ohm resistor and will reach its 10 watt power rating way before the 3 ohm resistor.


Easiest would be to use three 6 ohm 10 watt resistors in series. That would result in a total 30 watt dissipation rating at 18 ohms.


Here is a link to one of the AVS forum sponsors for 6 ohm resistors:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...rtnumber=004-6 


Joe L.


----------



## Kensai

I'm a bit out of this discussion at the moment, but I'm trying to figure out how to build a simple low pass crossover and couldn't think of a better place to ask for help.


Anyhow, I've been using the partsexpress "crossover component selection guide". Looking at the crossover I want (12db slope at 200hz inot 8 ohms), it gives me the values of 9 mH and 70.377 uF. Looking at the wiring diagram, it seems to show the the inductor in-line with the positive line, but the capacitor bridging the positive and negative lines between the inductor and the speaker. Is that correct? I would have thought they were both in-line on the positive line before the speaker.


Also, I would prefer a 24db slope. Any idea what the values would be for that?


Thanks,

Kensai


----------



## Teran

 SpeakerWorkshop 

Passive Crossover Designer at the FRD Consortium 


That is correct for a 2nd order low pass filter.


----------



## Kensai

Todd,


Excellent. This is much more than I could ever need










Thanks, from the other Todd


----------



## Teran

How about

CarStereo.COM Loudspeakers 101 


Scroll down to the crossover calculators.


----------



## Kensai

Again, excellent. Something easy for me to do here at work










Kensai


----------



## WGubbe

Hello everyone,


Well, things are progressing very well. My Audax center is finished and ready to test tomorrow. We will install the speakers in the surrounds tomorrow as well and I should be able to test them on the weekend. I hope.!!! The fronts have to be rebuilt a bit because of some errors I made during the construction of them. Oh well live and learn.


There is, of course, a question that I have for those that have built the Audax HT before me. It is clear to me by the pic's that have been posted that show how the egg crate foam is installed in the cabinets and also how the cross overs are mounted inside on the sides that do not have foam. However, for the surrounds it is not clear to me at all. For the surrounds is the foam applied to all surfaces inside? Where did you attach the two boards for the woofer and tweeter cross overs? This is not clear to me at all. I would appreciate any help you could offer TIA.

regards, Bill


----------



## Griff

Hello All!


Well, it's been a long time since I've posted to this thread. Glad to see it still going! I am going to archive this as the BEST thread ever for folks considering DIY!


Where am I at on my speakers? Well, I did get the center and mains finished. Hopefully no one remembers, but I had a senior moment on my center cabinet, and have not had time to rebuild it yet. We have been listening to these with no veneer yet, and haven't minded a bit!


I had a friend over, and after a couple of beverages, we got a little crazy with the volume knob. Something cooked in the X-over, but I haven't had time to tear them apart yet. The mains still work, but I had to reduce the levels of my center and my surrounds quite a bit after this display of dumbassity! (is that a word?) so something went awry!


I am getting reday to unhook everything because the movers come tomorrow!!!!


I finally will have a basement to build a theater room in. I also have a 30'X40' garage out back. I can now set my tools up and not have to be moving things out of the way all the time!!!


As soon as the dust settles, and I've re-arranget the living room 10 times : ), I am hitting the speaker re-build hard. I will post pics.


Again, great to see this thread still going!!


Griff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Griff,

You must have really pumped up the volume to cook your center. I've had mine so loud that I couldn't stand it. As for the word, of course it's a good word. It isn't a real word that you'll find in the dictionary but the very essence of being a dumbass is using words like dumbassity and I for one will add it to my repertoire!

jeff


----------



## WGubbe

Hello all,

Finally brought my Audax center home yesterday and hooked it up. I don't have an actual HT yet so I just connected it up to one side of my two channel system. First as many have mentioned the thing is heavy. I used double front and rear baffles. Also, my x-overs were all built with air core inductors even the large 6.8 mH and that thing must weight 6 ib on it's own. Well I got it inside and it sounds great. I notice a very slight vibration on the top panel when played at a loud level but I assume that may be because the top is only held down with two screws for my test period.I really like the highs and mids; to get a decent bass I find I have to crank up the bass tone control (gasp) on my amp. Of course that may be for a number of reasons but I can see I will need a sub woof to get what I want.

My subs are finished and I will be testing them next week. We have finished cutting out the panels for the front mains but unfortunately my friends router broke down and it is in the shop for repairs so we can't cut the circles. I wonder if the router broke down because of all the MDF we have cut. That stuff is sure hard. I found out as well that I am rather sensitive to the MDF dust. I had to wear a mask all the time and even then I didn't like the smell of the dust.

I don't have a digital camera but I have taken some pic's and will scan and post later.

Bill


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Congrats Bill,

I've never listened to mine without the sub, so I don't know how they sound alone. We are moving next month and the HT will be decommissioned for a few months until the new basement is done.


It sounds like you're building cylinder subs. I have an 18" tube with a 15" driver and it's all we can handle. You'll have no complaints about bass once you get them up and running.


----------



## WGubbe

Jeff,

Thanks for the reply. So far it sounds pretty good to my ear. I have found that by using my amplifier tone control to boost the base I am actually introducing distortion into my mid-range speaker. At least it sounds that way to me. If I leave the base and treble tone controls in the flat position it sounds really good. If a piece of music has bass in it it will play. Maybe not at the volume that I want to hear but it is there and the mid's and high's are very nice. I am happy.

Jeff, I followed your thread on your project to build the mbow1 speakers. I hope I have that right. I too would like to change my 2 chan system for something more modern. How do you find them after some time living with them? I am so impressed with the way the Audax center sounds as a three way system I am interested to find another three way design for my living room. Also, I will begin researching sub-woofers both for my HT and for my 2 chan system.

I think as far as the cylinder sub goes I think the WAF will have a lot say about that. I am afraid something smaller is in order here but I have read your thread on those speakers and J.L. as well. Awesome. but we will see.

Thanks, Bill


----------



## Jeff Hovis




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WGubbe_
> *Jeff,
> 
> Jeff, I followed your thread on your project to build the mbow1 speakers. I hope I have that right. I too would like to change my 2 chan system for something more modern. How do you find them after some time living with them? I am so impressed with the way the Audax center sounds as a three way system I am interested to find another three way design for my living room. Also, I will begin researching sub-woofers both for my HT and for my 2 chan system.
> 
> I think as far as the cylinder sub goes I think the WAF will have a lot say about that. I am afraid something smaller is in order here but I have read your thread on those speakers and J.L. as well. Awesome. but we will see.
> 
> Thanks, Bill*



Bill,

The MBOW1s are still very nice speakers. Dennis Murphy is a classical musician and I think his speakers will reflect that. I find these really nice for classical, jazz, vocals and instrumentals. They're not too good for loud rock n roll music. They definitely meet the WAF.


My current project for my office is a set of monoblock tube amps, preamp and two Buschhorn speakers. I guess it's really a fall/winter project, since I've purchased all the materials but only partially assembled one amp.

jeff


----------



## Kensai

Alright, I'm getting really tired or having to order components . . . anyone have any idea where I might find a local supplier for crossover components (inductors and caps mainly)? Radio Shack is right out (they've got nothing useful), so I don't know of any other chain stores to hit. I've never seen stuff like this at any hardware or auto shop, so I need some ideas. What type of business stocks this kind of stuff locally? Is there actually any type of business other than speaker crossovers building that uses this stuff?


Kensai


----------



## M NEWMAN

You need to seek out the commercial suppliers for electronics in your area. For example, you might go to Mallory's website and search for authorized dealers in your area. This will show the way to a supplier that carries a wealth of lines that cater to electronic repair and manufacturers. There's a few national chains of electronics parts distributors too, like "Off the shelf electroncs", etc. As for inductors, you'll need to order from speaker suppliers because it's simply too specialized for an electronics supplier to bother with. You will find that serious hobbiests (like myself, for ex.) eventually resort to winding our own for experimentation purposes. Magnet wire is available from various distributors as well as electric motor repair shops. Welcome to this hobby - it's definitely a nitch one...


----------



## Kensai

Thanks, Mike. Any pointers to guides on winding your own inductors? An air core inductor doesn't seem like a complicated beast, but I guess one has to know certain ground rules and how to know the amount of material needed to make a certain value inductor, eh? I'm all about replacing money with elbow grease











Kensai


----------



## M NEWMAN

There's a couple of inductor books floating around out there - check theonline bookstores. Also, I think (but I'd have to go back and look to verify) that Vance Dickason's Louspeaker Cookbook touches on basics of inductors. Doing a variety of online searches would probably be helpful as well. As far as building them, I use a jig that I made up several years ago that has a corless drill drive axle on one side, and the inductor bobbin axle opposite it. Works great.


----------



## Johnla

Here is some simple stuff on inductors.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com...nductorsim.htm 

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com...tor/help.shtml 

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com...ator/inductor/ 

http://skylab.org/~chugga/mpegbox/coil/ 

http://www.epanorama.net/links/componentinfo.html#coils


----------



## msieweke

Does anyone know where to get good deals on magnet wire? I did a search a few months back, and found the price per pound about the same as a prebuilt inductor - unless I bought in 5 lb or larger quantities.


It seems you could save a lot more by winding your own caps. Are there any DIY sites for capacitors? My idea is to use aluminum foil and roll polypropylene like you find here:
http://www.papermart.com/setpage.asp?PAGE=47-0-15


----------



## M NEWMAN

Try these:
http://www.powerwerx.com/product.asp...094&CtgID=1002 
http://www.parawire.com/18gaugemagnetwire.shtml 
http://www.elexp.com/cbl_mg30.htm


----------



## J. L.

You can buy enamel covered wire by the pound at your local motor-rebuilding shop are reasonable prices.


Often times, they will have the ends of spools that are too small for rewinding a motor, but plenty for an inductor for a speaker.


In any case, it can't hurt to ask.


Joe L.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by msieweke_
> *It seems you could save a lot more by winding your own caps. Are there any DIY sites for capacitors? My idea is to use aluminum foil and roll polypropylene like you find here*



I don't think you'll find making your own capacitors a very good, or practical DIY project.


----------



## WGubbe

I don't know how in the world you could build your own caps. At the least if you could succeed in "winding a capacitor" how would you confirm it's capacitance without buying expensive test equipment and then to guarantee it's quality and repeatability's. I don't see how you would save money especially on the scale that you would require caps.

The same thing for inductance. I am building an Audax HT system at this time. One of the inductances required is a 6.8 mH coil for the center speaker. I bought the coil from my supplier for $61.00 CDN. How would I have saved money by winding that coil myself? Building a jig, winding the coil accurately, counting the number of turns etc. is a big job unless you are set up as a manufacturer for electronic components and especially for capacitors, imho.

As some have stated I don't think you will save money and you will only create a lot of problems for yourself for no saving in the long run.

Regards, Bill


----------



## M NEWMAN




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WGubbe_
> *I don't know how in the world you could build your own caps. At the least if you could succeed in "winding a capacitor" how would you confirm it's capacitance without buying expensive test equipment and then to guarantee it's quality and repeatability's. I don't see how you would save money especially on the scale that you would require caps.
> 
> The same thing for inductance. I am building an Audax HT system at this time. One of the inductances required is a 6.8 mH coil for the center speaker. I bought the coil from my supplier for $61.00 CDN. How would I have saved money by winding that coil myself? Building a jig, winding the coil accurately, counting the number of turns etc. is a big job unless you are set up as a manufacturer for electronic components and especially for capacitors, imho.
> 
> As some have stated I don't think you will save money and you will only create a lot of problems for yourself for no saving in the long run.
> 
> Regards, Bill*



Actually, it's not anywhere near as big a job as you might think. However, the flip side is that you 'will' need to buy an LCR meter (wavetek makes a decent one that sells for around $80US, I think) to measure the final result. A LCR meter that has adjustable measuring frequencies is ideal, because you can then measure the inductor at the frequency you'll actually be using it, as opposed to the typical 1 khz. However, those are much more expensive. But, I've found them to be not very necessary because there's a fair amount of flex in xover design that can tolerate a little slop. The key to winding your own is to build an effective winding jig that's easy to make consistent inductors with. Daunting task for the novice, but not that big a deal when you're determined to do it. Once done, making your own inductors is a snap. But if you're only doing a couple of speakers, buying the meter and doing all that work doesn't make any sense - just buy the stupid things...










Checked on some LCR meters...here's some:
http://www.multimeterwarehouse.com/SM8301A.htm 
http://www.omnicontrols.com/lists/n_extech48.html 
http://www.elexp.com/tst_b875.htm 


I'm sure there's many more...do a search.


----------



## Brian Ravnaas

sorry to barge in, but hello, and is this the informal DIY speaker thread?


in any case, what a thread!


----------



## catapult




> Quote:
> The MBOW1s are still very nice speakers. Dennis Murphy is a classical musician and I think his speakers will reflect that. I find these really nice for classical, jazz, vocals and instrumentals. They're not too good for loud rock n roll music. They definitely meet the WAF.



You might want to consider the MBOW1 3-way for rock and HT. It uses the same mid and tweeter but it adds a 10" woofer. It has better bass and relieving the mid driver of freqs below 350 cleans up the midrange as well. They can either be built into one cabinet or an existing 2-way box, with a modified crossover, can use a separate woofer box as a stand.


----------



## Jeff Hovis




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by catapult_
> *You might want to consider the MBOW1 3-way for rock and HT. It uses the same mid and tweeter but it adds a 10" woofer. It has better bass and relieving the mid driver of freqs below 350 cleans up the midrange as well. They can either be built into one cabinet or an existing 2-way box, with a modified crossover, can use a separate woofer box as a stand.*



I only use my MBOW1s for 2-channel listening. I use seven Audax speakers for HT. I also have a set of Buschhorns and tube amps that I plan to assemble in a few months when I have some time. I almost built the MBOW1 3-ways but they wouldn't meet the WAF


----------



## Ron_C

Hi all,

I have another quick question. I finally got around to finishing one of my surround speakers to I could test it out. I hooked it up and all seemed to work fine. This is my first time building speakers and the crossovers which leads me to my question. How can I tell that I have the crossovers contructed properly? The speakers sounds good to me, but is there anyway to tell?


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## WGubbe

Ron_C


I too have been building some speakers for the first time and I have had exactly the same question. I have had my Audax center 3-way on test for about two weeks. It seems to me that it works fine and that the X-overs are working like they are supposed to. ie. when there is bass information present albeit at a some what lower level since these are not powered sub woofers. I have been gently touching the rubber surround of the woofers with my finger and when there is bass there the surround vibrates. Hardly an elegant scientific method but I can tell if they are working. The mid-range and high end sound really good so I presume that they work as well. The only way to prove all of this and that the x-overs are crossing at the proper points would be. imho, to connect an audio oscillator up to the speakers and run a series of test tones covering the range of the speaker system and plot the response curves. I do not have the means to do this with my speakers but I would love for some experienced speaker builder tell us how to do this on a budget.









Regards, Bill

Of course just as I post this message it occurs to me that maybe this should go in the audio setup forum. We may get better answers there.


----------



## Davespectral

You are close Wgubbe. The problem is the tones from an oscillator will bounce all over the place and wreck the results. I own Linearx l.m.s. but most people (I don't blame them) won't spend that kind of money. That was the cheapest in it's day, but now you can get speaker test equipment cheaper and better.


I did a search and the solution might be this:

http://www.rainfall.com/cdroms/audiotestII.htm 


It is a c.d. with warble tones which should do away with a lot of the room interference. Coupled with a Radioshack spl meter it would give you a starting idea. Also you will have to compensate for the response in the meter. If anyone wants to try this I can get the meter response. The problem is it won't have the resolution of a dedicated speaker test system. It might check as many tones as are on the c.d. where as l.m.s. checks over 800.


Another idea (kind of a pain) is ship it to Madisound speaker components.

http://madisound.com/entrance.html 


For a charge, they can test it, and if you want tweak it up a little, and their facility is close to state of the art.


The good news is that if someone is following a tried and true formula, and you are sure of your xover wiring, it probably isn't even necessary.


Hope this helps a little.


Dave


----------



## Davespectral

I went to google and typed in "cheap speaker design software"


You guys better take a look at THIS. I can't believe it!

http://www.speakerworkshop.com/index.htm 


Dave


----------



## WGubbe

Davespectral,

Thanks for the links. I checked out the speakerworldshop.com and it seems very interesting. I will report back later.

Thanks again, Bill


----------



## cjd

Assuming you merely want to verify that you have the components in the right order with the right drivers attached, the easiest way is to visually check. If you're unsure, you might post a pic and schematic for someone else to once-over.


However, it is rather likely that you'll quickly discover you are unhappy with the sound if something is out of place. A simple test tone sweep can reveal a lot (your computer is quite up to this task) without requiring a meter.


Using Speaker Workshop (or similar) to measure accurately requires quit a bit of setup, not to mention a proper mic (and mic-amp) etc. DIY, you might do that for $20-30, plus the time. Speaker Workshop itself is a bit of a bear to get into and figure out as well. Claudio's tutorial is probably the best place to start.










Now, if you designed the crossover yourself and are only now looking into making sure it's right, I have to wonder how you even got this far.










My first few crossover designs sounded good for about five minutes, then reality sunk in and it was quite evident they weren't very good at all.


C


----------



## WGubbe

cjd,

I am certain the components in my x-overs are in the proper order and connected to the right drivers. My interest in wanting to test them was rather to verify the frequency response ie. that the x-overs were indeed crossing at the proper design frequencies. I did not design the x-overs myself. The design is part of the Audax HT. Actually, they sound quite good to my untrained ear and I am confident they work as planned. It was just for the fun of testing.

Regards, Bill


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Ron,

The center is the most complex of the system. I actually had my mid xover wired incorrectly the first time I played it. I knew immediately that something wasn't quite right...that or my little Energy speakers were much better. I inspected the xovers and indeed discovered that I had soldered an incorrect connetion on the midrange. It was pretty obvious because conversational voices were muted and very difficult to understand. After I corrected the xover mistake, the voices really came out. Also, this system is designed to be used with a subwoofer. I built a cylinder sub using a Dayton 15" DVC and an 18" tube and 6" diameter port.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ron_C_
> *Hi all,
> 
> I have another quick question. I finally got around to finishing one of my surround speakers to I could test it out. I hooked it up and all seemed to work fine. This is my first time building speakers and the crossovers which leads me to my question. How can I tell that I have the crossovers contructed properly? The speakers sounds good to me, but is there anyway to tell?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ron*


----------



## DLK

Heads Up - It looks like PE is running a sale on the Audax HT drivers again. As of today they don't appear to have the new online version of the flyer, however, nor are the special prices showing up on the item web pages. The sale prices do appear in print flyer 4E-C, page 9.



-Dan


----------



## iwant12




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DLK_
> *Heads Up - It looks like PE is running a sale on the Audax HT drivers again. As of today they don't appear to have the new online version of the flyer, however, nor are the special prices showing up on the item web pages. The sale prices do appear in print flyer 4E-C, page 9.
> 
> 
> -Dan*



yippee! their website's updated now ... and since I always have need for more mini-speakers (in my mind, at least), I'm going to build a couple pair of these ...
http://home.new.rr.com/zaph/audio/audio-speaker14.html


----------



## jsalk

It has been a while since I've been here, so I thought I'd check back in and share a few things.


For those budding speaker designers here, Jay Butterman has just completed his Speaker Workshop Manual - a user manual/tutorial on Audua's popular, free Speaker Workshop software program. The 6.6 meg zip'ed file also contains a number of useful speaker design utilities.


I just posted the manual and you can download it at www.audioDIYcentral.com .


I also thought I'd share some pics of my first auto finish. Rob Kurylo wanted a pair of Veracity HT1's in BMW Laguna Seca Blue. Six coats of primer, six of color, six of lacquer and hours of polishing later, this was the result.


















Finally, a few months ago I asked about the desirability of a new home theater speaker design (see earlier posts in this thread). Well, there has been a lot of work done on this project since then and it is almost complete. As soon as we put the finishing touches on the designs, I will let everyone know the details and when the speakers/kits will be available.


Later...


- Jim


----------



## Davespectral

Hi Jim.


Let me be the first to say BEAUTIFUL.


Describe to us how they sound.


Dave


----------



## moonhawk

Beautiful, Jim...


Do you use solid wood for the front, or do you somehow manage to vener all those curves and corners?


----------



## WGubbe

Absolutely gorgeous Jim. I look forward to hear about your new kit.


Bill


----------



## jsalk

Thanks for the kind words all!


Dave -


The Veracity HT1's were designed to be extremely accurate, extremely detailed, extremely transparent and exellent at imaging. They are "ruler flat" out to about 25,000Hz (well beyond audibility).


The W18 midwoofer is extremely detailed and accurate with few equals, but does not play as low as, say, a Scan Speak 8545 (which is nowhere near as detailed - speaker design is about trade-offs). So while most people are thrilled with these speakers, people who love deep, athoritative bass and don't have a sub, may not want to trade-off bottom end to gain the additional detail.


No problem. I'll be announcing a full-range solution in about 2 weeks.


Moonhawk -


Although it can be done, it is not practical to try veneering over round-overs in two directions. These are solid wood baffles. But a note of caution...you can't just glue solid wood to MDF. The expansion and contraction rates are different and the wood will warp or crack.


The technique I developed allows the front baffle to expand and contract somewhat without causing problems. I'll be glad to share it with you (or anyone) that wants to try it.


- Jim


----------



## moonhawk

Jim...Thanks


Please let me know your method, as I'm putting solid maple fronts on the little North Creek speakers I'm building.


----------



## jsalk

Moonhawk -


First off, I make absolutely sure the solid wood I am using is dry (to around 8%). Wood that is not aged properly will warp, shrink and potentially crack as it ages.


The process I use is not complicated, but may require a little thought to envision. None the less, here it is:


I glue 3/4" x 3/4" strips of the same wood as the front baffle to the front of the sides, top and bottom portions of the cabinet. When I glue up the cabinet, I inset the front inside baffle (MDF) 1/4" proud (so after sanding smooth, they extend 1/4"). This provides a front edge of solid wood all the way around with a 1/4" "pocket" that the font baffle will eventually fit into.


I then cut the front baffle 3/4" less than the width and height of the cabinet (3/8" in from all sides).


I then cut the driver holes and use a tapered round-over bit on all the outside edges of the solid wood baffle.


I then undercut the solid wood baffle slightly less than 1/4" (more in a moment) around the entire periphery of the solid wood baffle. I make several passes until I have undercut a strip about 3/4" wide around the edges.


After the cabinet has been veneered (veneer goes over both the MDF and solid wood strips), I chamfer the front edges of the cabinet with a 45-degree bit, revealing the hardwood underneath. This chamfer removes the corner of the solid wood to a depth of 1/4".


When you drop the front solid wood baffle into the "pocket" created above, there will be a small amount of the flat, unchamfered surface of the solid wood trim between the edge of the solid wood baffle and the chamfered area. This is because it is almost impossible to match the chamfer with the round-over edge perfectly. I mount the solid wood baffle with an even amount of this flat area all around.


Now, the reason I undercut slightly less than 1/4" around the edges of the solid wood baffle, is that I don't want the back of that baffle to quite touch the inner MDF front baffle.


I then use a flexible adhesive (Liquid Nails) between the MDF and the solid wood baffle. This not only adheres the solid wood baffle, but also creates a seal between the two front baffles. And since they do not actually touch, it provides some damping as well. I usually clamp it in place overnight to let the adhesive cure.


Because the adhesive is flexible, as the solid wood baffle expands and contracts, it simply rides on the solid wood trim. And since the driver screws also hold the solid wood baffle in place, it is quite secure.


Now you have a baffle that can expand and contract somewhat and should be able to withstand changes in humidity without cracking, warping or splitting.


I hope this makes sense. If not, let me know.


- Jim


----------



## moonhawk

Jim...


Yup, think I got it, makes sense.


I'm doing it a little different, but similar in some ways. This project has been half finished for more than a year, as more pressing matters always seem to be at hand, but one of these days.


I have a pretty good wood shop downstairs , and some familiarity with woodworking, so your explanation was easy to follow.


One question: When you say the inner front baffle is "proud" 1/4 inch, do you not mean recessed? I think proud means sticking out, (I could be mistaken)which threw me for a minute.


Thanks again for your thorough reply...


----------



## moonhawk

p.s.


One advantage of the long delay, is I'm not worried that my fronts aren't dry enough, especially here in NM!


----------



## jsalk

Moonhawk -


Yes, I meant that the solid wood trim extends slightly more than 1/4" so when all the pieces are sanded level, they extend at least 1/4" beyond the inner MDF front baffle (so the "pocket" is at least 1/4" deep).


- Jim


----------



## WGubbe

Hello all,

I have finally finished my Audax HT. Tested all the speakers and they all sound great. Next have to do the veneer and that will be a problem because we have not finished the reno on the HT room so we don't know what kind of furniture we will be installing. Wood finish maple, cherry etc. have to decide. I am very pleased with the results so far and look forward to finishing the whole project in the fall. I will post some pictures when they are ready.

Thanks, Bill


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Congrats Bill, I'm sure you'll enjoy them for years! I have no plans of replacing mine anytime soon. We moved two weeks ago and I moved all the HT and stereo equipment myself. I built a custom tilted stand for the center and I forgot how much the whole thing weighs. It's over 100-lbs!


----------



## WGubbe

Thanks Jeff, I hope your move went well. Could you tell me a bit more about your stand for the center speaker? That sounds interesting because I can already see a problem for the placement of that speaker in my HT. If you have found a way to support it I would sure like to know that. Is it better above or below the TV?

Thanks, Bill


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Bill,

If you can, place it above your TV. Mine was under a 16:9 front projection screen. For that reason, I had to build a stand that angled the speaker up. It was built from 3/4 MDF and veneered to match the speaker cabinet. It was built hollow to accomodate 50-lbs of sand. I may eventually get a perforated screen and then place the center speaker closer to the same height as the fronts.


This is a pretty good picture of it unstained.
http://europa70.tripod.com/audax_center009.htm 

Jeff


----------



## WGubbe

Jeff,

Thanks for the picture. I will keep this advice in mind as we continue the reno.

Bill


----------



## C Schelp




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by usabrian_
> *
> 
> 
> Jim,your site was a real inspiration for me to take my Adire 281 and LCC kit to the next level with veneers.
> 
> 
> Here is a link to some photos:
> http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/usa...rian/my_photos
> 
> 
> In the end I need a much more refined speaker and am interested in your Veracity design as I have some old growth rosewood and curly maple I happened upon. Would the Veracity be suitable for a sizable theater or is there a larger floorstander version available if not? Have you compared it to some of the othe DIY speakers such as those by Northcreek? I love the looks of those drivers.
> 
> 
> Brian*



Brian or any one else. I am looking at the Adire 281 Kit and have considered the TL design. What is it about the 281 TL speakers you built that have you looking elsewhere for a new speaker? Has anyone heard both the ported and TL versions of the Adire 281? How do they compare?


Craig


----------



## technimac

As a newbie who has read all 75 pages of this thread, I'm impressed by the depth and breadth of knowledge possessed by forum members. I was wondering about the feasibility of using dipolar surrounds in my about-to-be-started 7.1 Audax HT system.


The rears would be stock Audax HT, but I was wondering about modifying Vance Dickason's dipolar surrounds (as described in the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook) to accommodate the AP170ZO (as used in the Audax HT system) in place of the AP130ZO that he uses in his.


Please give me any feedback on the benefits and costs of this approach. Thanks


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by technimac_
> *The rears would be stock Audax HT, but I was wondering about modifying Vance Dickason's dipolar surrounds (as described in the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook) to accommodate the AP170ZO (as used in the Audax HT system) in place of the AP130ZO that he uses in his.
> 
> 
> Please give me any feedback on the benefits and costs of this approach. Thanks*



Questions about modifying a existing speaker design for use with different drivers, and the possibility of any required cabinet and crossover changes in order to use them. Would probably have a much better chance of getting good answers at the Parts Express "Tech talk" forum.

http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl


----------



## msieweke

Or the Madisound forum: http://www.madisound.com


----------



## technimac

Thanks for pointing me to the PE and Madisound forums. Already been there and have seen several dipole surround projects under-way. Like Dave Browns take on Vance Dickason's HT project, using all Dayton drivers. Or the Alegria Audio TB3 Surrounds.


I guess what I should have asked was if any members here use dipolar surrounds, or are interested in adding them to Audax HT projects they have built, or have underway.


Great thread, lots of talent (Jim Salk, love your work and JL - super job on the pictorial and anecdotal progress of building your Audax HT ... and the sonotube sub epic) here. Would love to hear views on dipolars here.


Thanks for any feedback...it's all welcome

Cheers, Bruce


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by technimac_
> *I guess what I should have asked was if any members here use dipolar surrounds, or are interested in adding them to Audax HT projects they have built, or have underway.
> 
> 
> Great thread, lots of talent (Jim Salk, love your work and JL - super job on the pictorial and anecdotal progress of building your Audax HT ... and the sonotube sub epic) here. Would love to hear views on dipolars here.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any feedback...it's all welcome
> 
> Cheers, Bruce*



Hi Bruce,

I've always been a fan of di/bipole surrounds. I'm currently using the MPS-1625 tripole surround (non-amplified version) from M&K in my referrence system.

http://www.mkprofessional.com/mps1625.html 


These things sound fantastic. Very direct when needed, and very spacial for surround affects. I would love to build something along the lines of the 1625. Good luck, and let us know if you find something worthwhile to build!


Ralph Calabria


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by technimac_
> *
> 
> I guess what I should have asked was if any members here use dipolar surrounds, or are interested in adding them to Audax HT projects they have built, or have underway.
> 
> 
> Great thread, lots of talent (Jim Salk, love your work and JL - super job on the pictorial and anecdotal progress of building your Audax HT ... and the sonotube sub epic) here. Would love to hear views on dipolars here.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any feedback...it's all welcome
> 
> Cheers, Bruce*



Bruce,


Thanks for the kind words. I don't have anywhere near the experience of Jim Salk as the Audax HT and Sonotube Sub are the only DIY loudspeaker project I've ever constructed. I can really appreciate (and learn from) Jim Salk's work.


I initially considered the Vance Dickenson HT set and, in fact, had stopped in at the PartsExpress showroom in Ohio while in the area for the Dayton Hamvention about two years ago to see them in person. Unfortunately, they had only the unassembled kit on display and did not have any way to audition them. (They probably would have sold me if I could have listened to them)


From my own experience with the Audax HT set for side rear, and my old no-name surround speakers for the rear, and 7.1 surround sound there is enough sound from the sides and rear of my theater to envelop us. The side and rear speakers are mounted way above ear level so the do a pretty good job of filling in the back with reflected sound. I've never tried a bipolar set, but it would be interesting to try someday. the VD surround would probably be very similar in sound to the Audax HT since the tweeters are the same. (I'm guessing)


Sounds like you have an interesting project planned, combining the best features of both designs. Hope you too can add to this thread with your experiences as you build. Good Luck.


Joe L.


----------



## usabrian




> Quote:
> Brian or any one else. I am looking at the Adire 281 Kit and have considered the TL design. What is it about the 281 TL speakers you built that have you looking elsewhere for a new speaker? Has anyone heard both the ported and TL versions of the Adire 281? How do they compare?



I rather like my TL 281's. Excellent slam in your chest sound... I just wish they were visually more appealing like some of those with the Seas drivers and others considering the wood I was using to veneer. Now, the LCC speaker I have a love/hate relationship with (correction...tolerate/hate). To me, it colors the mid range in a negative way.


Brian


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Our HT is currently disassembled because we moved and we haven't started on the now one yet. However, I've been considering an audition of the Axiom Audio QS8. The price is right and the reviews are good. I already have 7 Audax speakers but may retire two of them and add a pair of the QS8. I just don't know whether to put them in the surround position or the rear speaker position



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by technimac_
> *As a newbie who has read all 75 pages of this thread, I'm impressed by the depth and breadth of knowledge possessed by forum members. I was wondering about the feasibility of using dipolar surrounds in my about-to-be-started 7.1 Audax HT system.
> 
> 
> The rears would be stock Audax HT, but I was wondering about modifying Vance Dickason's dipolar surrounds (as described in the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook) to accommodate the AP170ZO (as used in the Audax HT system) in place of the AP130ZO that he uses in his.
> 
> 
> Please give me any feedback on the benefits and costs of this approach. Thanks*


----------



## technimac

Thanks Ralph, Joe and Jeff for the feedback on potential candidates for dipole surrounds.


The MPS 1625 seems to have the best of both worlds, direct radiating when you want it, and a non-directional surround mode with the tweet disabled. Cool, but perhaps hard to match up (as a DIY project) with the rest of the Audax HT system...although I'd love to give it a try!


I also looked carefully at the Axiom Audio QS8's and read reviews that consistently praise them. That "up and downfiring" woofer configuration seems to be worthy of further investigation and perhaps an audition. An intriguing aspect about the QS8's is that although labeled "quadpolar", all speakers operate "in-phase", but still achieve very positive results. Jeff, it seems that these can be placed "high-up" on the wall, with the sound reflecting off the back or side-wall of your HT, so either "back" or "surround" position would probably warrant a test-listen or two.


The other surrounds I'm considering, also produced here in the "Great White North" (although today it is the "not-so-great" wet-north), are the Paradigm ADP 370 "adapted dipole" surrounds. These have the two woofers in-phase, with the tweets out-of-phase. The baffles on these are slightly angled towards the room at about 15 degrees and use driver sizes that match the Audax HT system. In addition, the crossover is somewhat similar in design to Vance Dickason's HT in that the woofer(s) and forward-firing tweet are in-phase, with only the rear-firing one out-of-phase above 2kh. Hmmm...think I'll audition these in the next several days at the local Paradigm dealer.


More fied back would be great and I'll post my impressions of the ADP 370's once I've had a chance to hear them.


Cheers, Bruce


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by technimac_
> *Thanks Ralph, Joe and Jeff for the feedback on potential candidates for dipole surrounds.
> 
> 
> The other surrounds I'm considering, also produced here in the "Great White North" (although today it is the "not-so-great" wet-north), are the Paradigm ADP 370 "adapted dipole" surrounds. These have the two woofers in-phase, with the tweets out-of-phase. The baffles on these are slightly angled towards the room at about 15 degrees and use driver sizes that match the Audax HT system. In addition, the crossover is somewhat similar in design to Vance Dickason's HT in that the woofer(s) and forward-firing tweet are in-phase, with only the rear-firing one out-of-phase above 2kh. Hmmm...think I'll audition these in the next several days at the local Paradigm dealer.
> 
> 
> Cheers, Bruce*



Bruce,

I have a pair of one of Paradigm's original APD surrounds. I believe they're the 150s. For the price, the ADPs are very nice, and I think you'll like the newer 370s. If they haven't changed the xover design philosophy TOO much, I believe they perform as dipoles about 100 Hz or so, and switch over to bipoles below that frequency. Yet another way to get more bass into the surrounds without going to a direct radiating monitor type speaker! I'm not sure if M&K still makes these little babies, but for a fraction of the cost of the 1625 (and much smaller) the 55 tripoles are pretty sweet. Check this out for more info.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...rs-7-2000.html 


Good luck with the Paradigms!


Ralph Calabria


----------



## technimac

Thanks Ralph for the M&K link. What I saw there that is very intriguing were the surround towers. I don't have a dedicated HT room, and have to use an open-plan area that is over 5000ft. One side of the listening area is open, so a tower there (at the end of the couch) sounds good to me. I would also like the option of switching from dipole to monopole, so here's the plan.

What I would like to do is build the enclosure similar to the M&K 29 surround tower, with the bottom enclosure volume close to the Audax HT stock surrounds (except with the direct radiating Audax TMO25F7 near the top of the tower) and the 6½ Audax AP170ZO direct radiating at the bottom.

On the top of the tower I would mount three Bravox 3½ mids and an upward firing Audax TMO25F7 (similar to the M&K design). The forward and upward firing mids would be in-phase, as would the upward firing Audax TMO25F7. The rear-firing mid would be out-of-phase. Mids would have sub-enclosures. The 6½ Audax AP170ZO would operate in both monopole and dipole modes. A toggle switch on the tower could be used for setting monopole or dipole mode.

PE has Bravox 3½ mids on sale now for $5 ea in 6Ω or 12Ω versions. Two 6Ω in series paralleled with one 12Ω would still deliver a 6Ω load for the mid x-over. There is a Vance Dickason X-over design posted to use either one or two of them (granted, designed for an MTM config) with a TB tweet. The specs for the Audax TMO25F7 (that I'm using for the Audax HT) are not that different from the TB so may be subbed for the TB in this case, where most sound will be reflected and diffused.

I will have to make sure the AP170ZO X-over in dipole mode crosses no higher than 500Hz. The Bravox mids will cover from there to a 3000Hz X-over to the TMO25F7. I'll build the top of the enclosure so it can be opened to fine tune the mids later if needed.

If all this doesn't work, I can build a stock Audax HT surround with the parts and the rest will become great speakers for my computer! My bottom line loss would be some time and mdf.


All feedback on this proposal welcome. Cheers, Bruce


----------



## jsalk












A few months ago I proposed a new speaker system designed specifically for home theater . A number of contributors to this thread expressed an interest in this project and asked to be informed when the speaker system was available.


Well, a great deal of work has been done over the past few months and they are almost ready.


The system will include MTM, MT, Center Channel and integrated sub designs. All will be available as completed speakers or in kit form. Pre-built and custom cabinets will also be available for those not inclined to make saw dust.


One of the main features of this system is the availability of three crossover options - one for flush mounting in a theater wall, one for speakers backed up to the wall and one for free-standing speakers. Each will have a different degree of baffle step compensation from none to full BSC. So no matter how the speaker is installed, a crossover is available that will provide optimum sound.


For those who are interested, I would expect to have information available in about a week and will post a notice here when specs and additional information is available.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jim,

We moved and are designing a new HT. I want all my speakers hidden this time. I was OK with mounting the surrounds and rears on the walls, but in-wall is interesting. How would your in-wall surround design pair with my Audax F/C/L?

jeff


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


It is always a good idea to use the same drivers all around. The possible exception would be the rear surround speakers.


I might point out that these are not typical "in-wall" speakers. The MTM is 13.5 inches deep and the MT is 12.5" deep. Mounting them in a wall would amount to building a false wall such as those used to house the screen and speakers in a home theater set-up.


The two things that make this design suitable for flush mounting are the lack of a port (the design is sealed, but could be ported, if desired) and the availability of a crossover option without baffle step comensation (not desireable in this instance).


As for the difference in sound, I do not have Audax monitors to compare them to. But based on the difference in the drivers used, I would guess that these speakers would be more detailed, significantly more transparent and perhaps better imaging.


Once I get this system off the ground, I won't promise anything, but perhaps I'll put together a traveling audition pair and you can check them out yourself.


- Jim


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by technimac_
> *Thanks Ralph for the M&K link. What I saw there that is very intriguing were the surround towers.
> 
> What I would like to do is build the enclosure similar to the M&K 29 surround tower, with the bottom enclosure volume close to the Audax HT stock surrounds (except with the direct radiating Audax TMO25F7 near the top of the tower) and the 6½ Audax AP170ZO direct radiating at the bottom.
> 
> On the top of the tower I would mount three Bravox 3½ mids and an upward firing Audax TMO25F7 (similar to the M&K design). The forward and upward firing mids would be in-phase, as would the upward firing Audax TMO25F7. The rear-firing mid would be out-of-phase. Mids would have sub-enclosures. The 6½ Audax AP170ZO would operate in both monopole and dipole modes. A toggle switch on the tower could be used for setting monopole or dipole mode.
> 
> PE has Bravox 3½ mids on sale now for $5 ea in 6Ω or 12Ω versions. Two 6Ω in series paralleled with one 12Ω would still deliver a 6Ω load for the mid x-over. There is a Vance Dickason X-over design posted to use either one or two of them (granted, designed for an MTM config) with a TB tweet. The specs for the Audax TMO25F7 (that I'm using for the Audax HT) are not that different from the TB so may be subbed for the TB in this case, where most sound will be reflected and diffused.
> 
> I will have to make sure the AP170ZO X-over in dipole mode crosses no higher than 500Hz. The Bravox mids will cover from there to a 3000Hz X-over to the TMO25F7. I'll build the top of the enclosure so it can be opened to fine tune the mids later if needed.
> 
> If all this doesn't work, I can build a stock Audax HT surround with the parts and the rest will become great speakers for my computer! My bottom line loss would be some time and mdf.
> 
> 
> All feedback on this proposal welcome. Cheers, Bruce*



Hi Bruce,

The M&K 29 is a really nice floor standing surround. You're plan sounds like a very good one provided you can get the crossovers just right. Please let us know if you decide to pursue this design..............I'm sure a lot of us would be interested in the results!!!!!!!


Ralph


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Thanks Jim,

Our new HT will have plenty of wall space to mount in-wall. Since yours are in a cabinets similar in size to what I already have, I'll keep the Audax and either make cutouts in the walls/columns and place them in or just mount them to the walls. I've also considered something like the quadpole Axiom QS8 as surrounds.

Jeff


----------



## DblHelix

What T/S parameters indicate that a speaker will work good for music/home theater work? I know what to look for in raw car audio drivers but I assume things would be different for home use drivers?


----------



## jsalk

DblHelix -


There are a number of variables involved here. It depends on factors such as desired cabinet size, desired bass response and extension and whether the desired system is ported or sealed.


Then there are sensitivity issues, accuracy, detail, vertical and horizontal dispersion, etc.


In short, there is no answer to your question without first determining your design goals.


For example, the design goals for the new home theater speaker system I mentioned above are totally different than the design goals for my Veracity series. So the ideal T/S parameters of the drivers were different as well.


I hope that makes sense.


- Jim


----------



## Ron_C

Hi,

Does anyone know of an internet shop that sells 1/2 inch rabbet bits pretty cheap? I bought some bits from woodbits.com, thinking it was a 1/2" rabbet bit and it was only a 3/8" bit with a 1/2" cut depth. What I am looking for is a bit to make a 1/2" rabbet groove. It doesn't look like woodbits.com sells such an item. Where did the rest of you get your 1/2" rabbetting bits?


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## jsalk

Ron_C

www.routerbits.com 


- Jim


----------



## jsalk












As promised, I have posted information about this new home theater speaker system.


The system was developed as the result of this thread. It was a long involved process, but the results were worth the effort.


Details can be found at the web site linked below.


- Jim


----------



## jsalk

PS - For those interested, I have also posted a pic and info on the new Veracity HT3 in the "Speakers" section of AVS Forum.


- Jim


----------



## Davespectral

Hi Jim.


At the risk of sounding like I'm talking about Playboy centerfolds, your Veracities for the months of May and September......WOW! Over the top beautiful.


Dave


----------



## jsalk

Dave -


Thanks for the kind words. I liked the May version so much, I'm building myself a personal pair, but finishing them in a high-gloss piano-type finish. They are close to bing finished and I think they will be the most beautiful speakers I have done.


- Jim


----------



## Eddie Horton

Good looking speakers, Jim.


----------



## jsalk

Not necessarily for home theater use (although they would be totally awesome as left and right mains), but I thought I'd share a pic of my latest creations.











- Jim


----------



## jjdche




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *Not necessarily for home theater use (although they would be totally awesome as left and right mains), but I thought I'd share a pic of my latest creations.
> 
> 
> - Jim*



HOLY GUACAMOLE!! BEAUTIFUL!!


----------



## jsalk

For anyone interested, Alan Sull just posted a review of the Veracity HT3's at audioreview.com.

Veracity HT3 review 


He also posted a review of the Veracity QW as well.

Veracity QW review 


Alan spent about 4 -5 hours in two separate listening sessions with the HT3's and about 1 hour with the QW's.


For those of you who don't know him, Alan's idea of a vacation is traveling to evaluate high-end speakers. He flew in from Little Rock, AK last week to spend some time with the HT3's here in Michigan.


Alan evaluates speakers without getting into the technical aspects. He is only concerned with sound quality. He has about 3 CD's he's complied with a wide variety of cuts to evaluate all aspects of speaker performance. His listening skills are quite impressive.


He has evaluated almost every major high-end speaker design currently available. What impressed me the most while he visited was that he could cite strengths and weaknesses of every design I asked about and many I didn't even know existed. He is literally a walking repository of speaker performance information.


- Jim


----------



## Matt_Doug




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *Not necessarily for home theater use (although they would be totally awesome as left and right mains), but I thought I'd share a pic of my latest creations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Jim*



Gosh! those are very beautiful speakers. May I ask though the need for the 3rd driver. I gather from your previous statements in other threads that the bookshelf version of those beautiful speakers together with a capable sub would be a better choice.

thanks.


----------



## jsalk

Matt-Doug -


I just answered a similar question in the speaker section. Basically, the HT1's with a well-integrated sub would be spectacular. Nothing more would be needed.


But there are some advantages to the HT3 that would take it to the next level. Rather than go into it again here, you may want to check out the post I referred to above.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=453571 


- Jim


----------



## jsalk

Matt-Doug -


After re-reading the previous posts, I can see that I may have created some confusion.


As for the stand-mounted speakers, I was pointing out that you can have a great system without resorting to floor-standing speakers. For example, assuming the budget were the same, you could afford better stand-mounted 2-ways and have a marvelous system. (I use HT1's in my home theater and have never found them wanting.)


If funds are unlimited, multi-way speakers CAN offer some additional benefits for music reproduction, but only if you are not forced to compromise midrange performance. And they don't necessarily need to be floor-standers (although most are). More often than not though, budgets force compromises in order to accomodate floor-standers for the left and right channels. In these cases, you could easily end up with an inferior home theater system.


My earlier statements were based on the question of whether or not you could have great HT sound with stand-mounted speakers. And the answer is definitely yes. Floor standing speakers are not a requirement for a great cinematic experience.


- Jim


----------



## Matt_Doug




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *Matt-Doug -
> 
> 
> After re-reading the previous posts, I can see that I may have created some confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Jim*



Jim, thank you for the clarification, as I found it difficult to reconcile what you say here: My review of Salk Sound Veracity HT-1 Speakers which is your floor standers are a better choice, and here: Floorstanding vs Bookshelves where you state that your top of the line bookshelf with a sub is a better choice. But I'm still confused as to what you think is the best configuration for the ultimate music experience, irrespective of price point; HT3 w/sub, HT3 w/o Sub, HT1 w/sub. with the sub optimally integrated where applicable. thanks


----------



## jsalk

Matt_Doug -


In the "Floorstanding vs. Bookshelves" thread, the original poster asked about a system for home theater. He did not mention music. In this case, I would (and personally do) go with HT1's all around with one or two well-integrated subs. The advantage is that the HT1's would be tonally consistent creating the illusion of a 360-degree sound field. I really can't see where most people would find this home theater system wanting.


I also assumed that money was an object (which it almost always is) and that going with floor-standers would require lesser-performing speakers, resulting in an inferior system.


In the "Review" thread, the question was also related to home theater, but he specifically asked about music reproduction and whether the HT3 would be better for music. In this case, there are two advantages to the HT3's - slightly lower midrange distortion and greater bass extension. If money was no object and music, especially 2-channel, is important, I would go with the HT3's.


As for the sub situation, the HT3's use a 10" TC Sounds sub driver for the woofer. But it was not meant as a substitute for a traditional HT subwoofer and does not eliminate the need for it.


The HT3's are full-range and have an F3 of about 29Hz. When you add in-room response, you are probably effective to the mid-20's. . There really isn't much in music lower than this. So, for music, you could get by without a sub if you wanted to.


But to create realistic earthquake-type effects for HT, you would probably want something that plays even deeper. So a large, well-integrated sub or two would still be required for the ultimate home theater system.


To put his into perspective, we're now talking about a system (speakers alone) that would cost upwards of $30 - $50,000 to duplicate with speakers sold at retail.


I have all of these speakers available, so I can mix and match as I see fit. I personally use HT1's all around for home theater and multi-channel music, and HT3's for 2-channel music. Your mileage may vary.


I suppose you could make the case that the "ultimate" home theater system would be HT3's all around with a few massive subs worked into the mix. But that seems to me to be going a little over-board. Then again, if money is no object...


I hope that makes it a little clearer.


- Jim


----------



## philiprst

I have enjoyed following this thread and the advice given here was invaluable in building my own set of Audax HT speakers. This was the first set of speakers I have ever built and I am very pleased with the results. These are fine sounding loudspeakers for the amount of money invested (my two channel system uses commercial speakers built by Avalon Acoustics). The total cost broke down as follows: drivers, $250. Crossover parts $140 (I used poly film caps bypassed with poly foil). Binding posts $20, foam $15, hex bolts and t-nuts $20, MDF $30, Veneer and tung oil, $120. I think that covers most of it: about $600 for 5 speakers.


As a point of comparison I had Paradigm center and fronts. The DIY Audax speakers are noticeably better.



From start to finish the 5 speakers took about 2 months to finish working on weekends and the odd evening. I made the surrounds as towers. I was surprised how long it took to build and install the crossovers; I though I was done when the cabinets were finished.


Here are a few things I learnt:


1) Halfway through the project I bought the Jasper jig to replace my home built circle cutting jig. It works very well. I am fortunate to have a plunge and a fixed base router which made life much

easier. Using carpet tape to hold the cut-outs in place was another revelation.


2) In the beginning I used butt joints and had a hard time keeping everything aligned properly when I glued together the cabinets. Using biscuit joints instead solved that problem.


3) There is something to be said for cutting the cabinet panels oversize and taking the excess off with a edge trimming router.


Overall, I enjoyed the project and encourage everyone who has an interest in DIY speakers to give it a try. Thanks again to those here who documented their building adventure.


----------



## philiprst

Here are some pictures of my completed Audax Home Theater loudspeakers.


The cabinets are veneered with flat sawn cherry and finished with tung oil.


First the center speaker


----------



## philiprst

Next, a close up of the fronts. The Audax MTM front is standing on a clone of the Wilson Puppy "subwoofer".


----------



## philiprst

Here is one of the surrounds, build as a floorstanding tower.


----------



## philiprst

All the front speakers on the stage.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Philip,

Those look really good! You should be proud and I know you'll love them. With those surround cabinets, I can tell you don't plan to hide them!


built the Audax nearly two years ago. We moved in July and are in the midst of building an all new dedicated HT. I've replaced almost everything EXCEPT the Audax speakers. I may build a second cylinder sub but the seven Audax will stay. I even have a couple of neighbors who may want me to build these for them.


----------



## philiprst

Thanks Jeff,


This was actually my first DIY speaker project and I thought it turned out very well. I doubt that there is anything under $2000 that can touch it and I am quite fussy about loudspeakers. It's difficult to talk about "value" in DIY because it's not just money it's the time spent building. But, it's enjoyable and doesn't really count. I still need to build two more surrounds to get a complete 7.1 system, but I'm taking a rest for a while. The sub is an Outlaw LFM-1 which is fabulous value for money. I doubt I could build anything significantly cheaper. btw. I have a direct point of comparison for the Audax center: a paradigm CC-370 center channel speaker which retails for around $400. There is simply no comparison....


The rest of my system is a Denon 3910 universal player, Outlaw 950/7100 and a Behringer Feedback destroyer which eqs the subs. The PJ is a Z2.


Thanks again Jeff


----------



## BigguyZ

Philip-

Where did you get your veneer? Online or local? You did a great job with those.


I myself have a very large part of the cabinets finished. The two fronts and the surrounds are done. The Center was started before my tools were stolen. I've since replaced my Ryobi router with a used Porter Cable model, but now it's a matter of building a workshop completely, as I just moved. So- I have to build a workshop to build my speakers... I only hope that I can finish them before the year's out, and that they look as good as yours.


----------



## WGubbe

Philip,


Great looking set of speakers. I built the Audax set too. They are finished except for the veneer. That cherry looks real good. Might try that myself.


Thanks, Bill


----------



## philiprst

BigguyZ,


I bought the veneer at a local custom woodworking store. It was paper backed. I have heard good things about tape-ease and woodworker's supply, both place do mail order sales and have good prices.


This was the first veneering I have ever done and I found the whole procedure quite straightforward; it was one of the more enjoyable parts of the build. I used water based contact cement although there is another method using yellow glue and an iron which is more forgiving. I am also a big fan of oil, or more correctly, oil-varnish finishes. They make the finishing almost completely foolproof.


Do you have pics of your speakers Bill? I would love to see them.


----------



## Johnla

Philip


They look great! And I totally agree with you choice of using tung oil.

One thing I'm curious about though. Seeing as how you had the room to use and build them as floorstanding surrounds, why did you not also make them as matching MTM's to the fronts?


----------



## philiprst

Johnla,


Good question. I wanted to stick with the original design because I knew they were designed as a system. It's quite possible that the surrounds would be better as MTMs, but since this was my first project I wanted to stick with the original design. This is not quite as obvious a choice as it seems. The surrounds are sealed whereas the fronts are ported. So there is a trade-off in transient response for bass extension. There is also the issue of off axis response which tends to be worse for an MTM. This is an issue because the surrounds usually have the listener off-axis. The MTMs are signifucantly more expensive than the surrounds. You not only need the second woofer but the crossover has more and more expensive parts.


----------



## Jeff Hovis




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by philiprst_
> *Johnla,
> 
> 
> The surrounds are sealed whereas the fronts are ported. So there is a trade-off in transient response for bass extension. There is also the issue of off axis response which tends to be worse for an MTM. This is an issue because the surrounds usually have the listener off-axis. The MTMs are signifucantly more expensive than the surrounds. You not only need the second woofer but the crossover has more and more expensive parts.*



That was my first thought. I have a dedicated HT and the surround speakers are mounted (at least this will be true once the new HT is finished). So, the ported MTM design would not work anywhere for me except in the L/C/R position.


----------



## BigguyZ

Question- I want to do the speakers as much to-the-book as I can. Knowing that, where can I get the 2" egg crate foam? I know you say Wal-mart mattress pad, but the ones I saw the two wal-marts where definitely not 2", and also were the type were it had zones. so you get wavy lines at one area, then egg crate another, and so forth. Is there an online place that sells it cheap? Or am I best to go to a local foam supplier?


----------



## Johnla

I use MTM's all the way around in a 5.1 setup, and it sounds great and well balanced. Especially with SACD's and DVD-audio disks, but then again. All of mine are of a identical sealed MTM design, and not ported. But I still have not decided on what I will go with for the extra 2 speakers when I go to a 7.1 setup. Because the amount of available room I have left over to put them in, is a big determining issue/problem.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Bigguy

Check this out... a sale at Parts Express:
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....7&WebPage_ID=3


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *but the ones I saw the two wal-marts where definitely not 2", and also were the type were it had zones. so you get wavy lines at one area, then egg crate another, and so forth. Is there an online place that sells it cheap? Or am I best to go to a local foam supplier?*



The 2" thickness part of it is probably not real critical, and you can maybe even give or take a 1/2" or so either way without any issues. Also you can even "double up" if need be to get thicker. But other than places like Wal Mart, K-Mart or a bedding stores, there is always online.


2 1/2"
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=260-515 


1 1/2"
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=260-516


----------



## philiprst

I used the standard egg crate mattress foam from Jo-Ann fabric which is about 1.5" thick. I believe that in d'Appolito's write up he mentions egg crate foam as being a reasonable substitute, so it's not critical. In the plans one of the sides of the cabinets is not covered with foam. I would guess that simply covering that side with 1.5" foam would make up for the slight loss of absorption you get by using the mattress foam.


You might want to consider upgrading the crossover components. d'Appolito mentions using poly film caps throughout. What I did was use the equivalent of Dayton poly caps and then bypass them with small value poly foil caps. You can buy these very inexpensively in lots of 50 on ebay.... 0.22uF or 0.47uF works well. In fact, if you have a few 0.47uF poly foil caps then you can also parallel them to make some of the series tweeter caps. Some versions of the kit (such as Madisounds) substitute some of the large parallel caps in the woofer crossover with NP electrolytics.


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by philiprst_
> *Johnla,
> 
> 
> .......There is also the issue of off axis response which tends to be worse for an MTM. This is an issue because the surrounds usually have the listener off-axis. The MTMs are signifucantly more expensive than the surrounds. You not only need the second woofer but the crossover has more and more expensive parts.*



Hi Phil -


I curious about this statement. MTM's are quite good wrt horizontal dispersion if they are standing up (the way they should!). It's when an MTM is lying on its side that they have lousy off axis response. Hence the use of a 3-way in the center channel of HT system. It eliminates the lobing affects of the 2-way MTM design. See here for a brief explanation.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...er-9-2001.html 


BTW - You're speakers look beautiful!


Ralph Calabria


----------



## jsalk

Just thought I'd pass along this info.


I took the Veracity HT3's to the DIY2004 - Iowa speaker competition this weekend.


It was a great opportunity to meet old and new friends, talk high-end audio and listen to a great bunch of speakers.


The competition was tough, but the HT3's earned top honors, winning the "ultimate class."


This is the second year in a row that a Veracity speaker has earned the top scores. Last year it was the Veracity QW.


I'm beginning to get fond fellings about Iowa.


- Jim


----------



## Rop

Time for this beautiful thread to bump back to page 1, and as it happens I have a question I'm sure can be answered by the people participating here.


My ongoing Audax HT speaker project (6 months+ and counting) is finally reaching the point where the two front speaker enclosures are almost finished. I'm inspired, and trying hard to get a few hours in on Saturdays, so it's moving pretty fast! All things being relative of course...


This is my first serious speaker project and I've figured out most things except for one: How does one fix/attach the cross-overs in the enclosures? With only 3/4" MDF there's not a lot for screws to hold onto. So, just glue them in place with silicon glue or 'Goop'? What's the recommended procedure?


-Rob-


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey a new Audax builder! I am attaching a link to my MBOW1 build that shows how I attached all my xovers. I used a similar method on my Audax as well. These are just better pictures. You can use wood screws from Home Depot or since I've built different sets of speakers, I have lots of the little black screws from Parts Express and Madisound. The nylon spacers, I bought at Home Depot and also Lowes.
http://europa70.tripod.com/mbow1004.htm


----------



## philiprst

That is a very clean install Jeff. I thought about this for my Audax fronts but I could'nt figure out how to get the screws in, or out, after the cabinet was built. In the end I just used Goop and actually had no problem removing one crossover in which a solder joint failed.


----------



## jsalk

Generally, I like to install crossover boards behind the woofer. The irregular shapes help break up the backwave, and it is relatively easy to slip the crossvover through the woofer hole and screw it directly to the inside back of the cabinet.


- Jim


----------



## Rop

Thanks for the info!

I would have thought that wood screws don't have much to hold onto with just 3/4" MDF, which doesn't have much holding power to begin with. But if that's how it's done I'll follow suit. The back is already pretty "full" on the Audax fronts, with holes for the port, a large port bracket, and the terminal cup, so they'll have to go elsewhere. I can screw them in before gluing the cabinet together though. Guess I should put some foam or something underneath the cross-over if I use stand-offs, or screw them directly to the wood (ie. no space between cross-over and speaker enclosure), with a glob of silicone glue to prevent rattling.


Jeff, nice speakers! I like the way the wood looks after finishing. I've bought a large sheet of cherry paper-backed veneer for finishing, thinking it would get a similar reddish look as your mahogany. It seems much lighter than that (of course, the finish will darken it, though I don't expect it will to the extend of looking like mahogany). Plan is to finish with Tung oil. I like the simplicity of it and the fact that it's possible to re-finish them again at a later date if they ever looked scratched or otherwise ragged. I'm also taken by your stands. In fact, they look so good I may do something similar!


Jim, I can see why you are in this business. I'm finding speaker building very therapeutic. Good for the sool!


-Rob-


----------



## jsalk

Rob -


Here's a pic of my latest Veracity HT3's, finished about a week ago.











And here's some front baffle detail.











The veneer is fiddleback mahogany and the front baffles are thuya burl.


- Jim


----------



## Rop

Those are absolutely beautiful Jim!


You probably set the veneering standard us mere mortals can only strive for. How do you get the veneer bent over the corners (since the various corners have different directions one would end up with too much or too little material where the angle changes)? At least, it looks like the front baffle is one piece of veneer, right? What do you use as a finish? Not that I plan to duplicate this any time soon, I'm interested to learn though.


-Rob-


----------



## jsalk

Rop (I mis-read it as Rob before - sorry) -


Normally, veneer can't bee bent in two directions. I say normally, because there is a way to do it. But it is complicated and involves the use of a mold and a veneer press.


The front baffles are solid wood. That is the only practical way of having round-overs on all edges.


As for the cabinet edges, I use either the same wood as the veneer I will be using or a contrasting wood. I cut 3/4" square strips and glue them to all the front edges of the side, top and bottom panels.


I then veneer over the top of them.


Finally, I chamfer the corners with a 45-degree chamfer bit, exposing the underlying 3/4" stock. If you use the same wood as the veneer, it looks like you used solid wood on the outer cabinet. If you use contrasting wood, you have a nice accent stripe on the cabinet edges.


I hope this answers your questions.


- Jim


----------



## Rop

Thanks for the explanation Jim. I understand now, and in fact your edge strips has given me an idea (not for the Audax project, I'm adopting the keep-it-simple approach there, but there will be more in the future). I can only imagine how expensive those solid baffles are. Must hurt to just make those cutouts and throw away all that wood. It does look beautiful though!


What do you use as a finish? Is this polyurethane or something more fancy?


-Rob-


P.S. The name is actually 'Rob' but that was already in use as a login-name, hence the adoption of 'Rop' for that. Either one will work.


----------



## jsalk

Rob -


On those I used poly. I use quite a few coats of regular gloss poly with sanding in between until the grain is completely filled. I thn sand they smooth and use a few coats of satin wipe-on poly as finish coats.


The gloss poly is clearer and makes the grain/figuring pop. If you used satin all the way, it would be more clouded. If find that the regular poly builds faster and the satin makes a nice finish.


I also use varnish and lacquer occassionally, especially if a high gloss piano finish is required. This requires lacquer.


- Jim


----------



## Ten 99

Jim,


Do you spray your finishes, or rub them on, etc?


----------



## jsalk

Ten 99 -


With poly and varnish, I rub them on. With lacquer and paint, you must spray it.


- Jim


----------



## tjt123

Jim,


As always your stuff looks just amazing. Thanks for inspiring the rest of us.


I'm working on some speakers for a friend, and I just finished up the assembly last night so I can take them to the Chicago DIY event tomorrow. Right now they are raw veneer and I need to sand stain and finish (next month). I'm thinking about trying the hand rubbed poly that you mentioned.


Is there any particular brand of Poly that you would recommend? Any gotchas to watch out for when using the hand rubbed Polly for the beginning finisher? I've only used regular Poly with a foam brush on window trim and such in the past.


I attached a small shot of the speakers and here are two links to larger shots, however you will need to cut and paste the links since I don't have 5 posts yet.









webpages.charter.net/tjt123/Echo/Echo1.jpg 
webpages.charter.net/tjt123/Echo/Echo2.jpg 


Thanks,

-TIM


----------



## jsalk

tjt123 -


I use Miwax wipe-on satin poly applied with cheeze cloth.


I usually start with regular gloss Minwax poly, also applied with cheese cloth. I wipe on about 2 coats and sand with 400 grit. I then wipe on about 5 - 6 additional coats and sand to a smooth surface. The gloss poly fills the grain without clouding the surace.


Once this is done, I finish with 2 - 3 thin coats of the satin wipe-on poly. This provides a nice satin finish.


The only other thing I would mention is that the coats should all be thin to avoid runs.


I hope this helps.


- Jim


----------



## BigguyZ

Audax Builders-

Haven't been active in this thread, but I'm approaching the final stages of my front speakers, and my surrounds. A couple of questions:


1- Is anyone flush mounting the madisound terminal cups? Since the main part is circular, and the part that sits on the cabinet is square I can't just use a rabetting bit like witht he drivers... How are you flush mounting? I tried to outline, htne do it by hand and it didn't turn out the best... How deep are you going if you are fluch mounting?


2- How deep do you cut for the rabbet for the woofers? I realize you also need to leave space for the weatherstripping supplied... Is everyone using the supplied stripping?? (Madisound kit).


3- Are you flush mounting the tweeter? If so, what size cut for the initial hole? and then the rabbet? And how deep a rabbet cut.


If not, how large a hole for the tweeter? I did the 1 7/8" diameter hole like the diagram shows, and it doesn't sit all the way down in the baffle. Do you still use the weather stripping??


That's just about it.


Should have the fronts done by the end of the week, and I'll try to get pics then too.


----------



## philiprst

BigguyZ,


I'll try and answer as best I can; I am sure others will have better answers.


1- The easiest way to flush mount the terminal cups is to rout the square first. Probably the best way to do this is to use a make a gig out of scrap mdf in which you cut a oversize square hole. Clamp it to the cabinet and use a bit with a collar to waste a square of appropriate depth. You can also make a jig by joining together 4 pieces of 1x4 pine to make a square hole (like a picture frame). I didn't flush mount mine and it looks fine.


2. The best way to get the depth of the woofer rabbet is to clamp one edge of the woofer frame, with the weatherstripping, onto a piece of wood and then either measure it or set the router depth from it directly.


3- The tweeter doesn't need to be flush mounted except for cosmetic reasons. I used a 1 7/8 cutout and it was a perfect fit.


When you do the flush mounting I would suggest that you measure and then make the cutout on a piece of scrap before commiting to the actual cabinet. If you are like me, then you will probably make measurement mistakes which are easily spotted on the test piece.


Good luck


Philip


----------



## jsalk

There seems to be some misconceptions about the impact of flush mounting drivers. If you wonder about the effects, especially on a tweeter, here is some information:

http://home.twcny.rr.com/cnydga/flush%20mounting.html 


- Jim


----------



## BigguyZ

I was thinking of flush mounting the tweeters specifically for cosmetic reasons. The how-to at Secrets of home theater and hi-fi show the tweeter flush mounted, but really I'm just worried about how far it'll stick out witht he weather stripping...


Also- I was looking at the Audax PDF located on page 13- the note under the diagram for the front speaker says the ID hole for the tweeter should be 2". This pretty much matches what I've found... I'll probably have the get a sanding drum for the one I cut with a ID of 1 7/8", as is catches on a bit of the driver frame. That same note says tweete is mounted flush on front baffle... So I don't know...


----------



## jsalk

BigguyZ -


Here are three ways to handle flush mounting of round face plates:


1) Use a Jasper Jig (or equivalent) for a round face plate. Before you do the driver cut-out, set the depth equal to the face plate depth plus a little extra for the weather stripping. You can test this by cutting the edge of a piece of scrap MDF and checking the depth with the face plate before you begin cutting.


Once the depth is established, start cutting at the diameter of the face plate. Once you have made a complete circle, set the jig to cut about 1/8 smaller diameter and make another pass. Keep doing this until you reach the cut-out diameter and then cut all the way through.


BigguyZ - since you have already done your cut-out, this method will not work for you.


2) Use a rabbiting bit set ( http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-router...36782_31878+26 ). To determine the size of the rabbiting bit you need, subtract the diameter of the cut-out from the diameter of the face plate and divide by 2. For example, if the cut-out diameter is 2" and the faceplate diameter is 3", 3" - 2" = 1". So you would need a 1/2" rabbiting bit.


Set the bit at the proper depth for the faceplate plus a little extra for the weather stripping. Again, you can check this depth with some scrap MDF.


Using the cutout as a guide, simply run the rabbiting bit around the cut-out until the bearing rides up against the cut-out. If you have a nice cut-out to begin with, the result will be a perfect flush mounting.


This is the method I use most often. To get a good tight fit, I usually do a test hole with any new driver and add a little masking tape to the bearing if the hole is slightly too large. With a little experimentation with scrap MDF, you can creat a perfect hole every time.


BigguyZ, do this before you widen the diameter of the cut-out with a drum sander. If not, you will have to use method three.


3) Cut a template to the exact diameter of the face plate. Test by setting the face plate in the template hole to make sure it fits properly.


Next, use a pattern bit ( http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-router...36782_31878+47 ) to cut the rebate.


After routing the cut-out, I place the driver in the hole and draw a line on the baffle around the edge of the face plate. I then use double-face carpeting tape between the baffle and the template, center the template on the lines. Once properly positioned, press down hard to make sure the template is securely held in place by the carpet tape.


I then use the pattern bit to cut the rebate, checking the depth with a guage until it is correct. This is the trickiest part in that you must have the depth set correctly before you remove the template. Once you remove it, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to re-attach it in the exact same position.


After cutting it, you may find that it was just a bit off-center and doesn't quite match up with the cut-out. You can then sand the cut-out until the driver drops perfectly into place.


I use this method for square, rectangular and irregular-shaped face plates as well. Square and rectangular face plates are easy. To create a template, simply cut some scrap MDF the exact width of the faceplate and glue them between to other scrap pieces at the exact height of the faceplate.


Creating templates for irregular-shaped face plates is a bit more tricky, but not all that difficult. Here is the method I use: ( http://www.audiodiycentral.com/nt_ir...rcutouts.shtml )


I hope this helps.


- Jim


----------



## tjt123

Thanks Jim,


I just got back from Home Depot with some Minwax wipe-on Poly. I'll let you know how they turn out. I'm going to try the gloss base with the satin finish like you mentioned.


For anyone who might be interested, I was at DIY Chicago yesterday and there were a couple of really cool designs. There were about 20 different speakers demoed. I've posted a bunch of pictures here:

webpages.charter.net/tjt123/ChicagoDIY2004/index.html 


Sorry you will have to cut and paste the link since I don't have 5 posts yet and can't post links.


By the way, the North Creek Echos are mine and are the ones that I'll be finishing with the Poly.


-TIM


----------



## msieweke




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *Also- I was looking at the Audax PDF located on page 13- the note under the diagram for the front speaker says the ID hole for the tweeter should be 2". This pretty much matches what I've found... I'll probably have the get a sanding drum for the one I cut with a ID of 1 7/8", as is catches on a bit of the driver frame. That same note says tweete is mounted flush on front baffle... So I don't know...*



You may be able to get away with just chamfering or rounding over the top edge of the hole. Try that before going to the trouble of expanding it.


----------



## BigguyZ

That's a great idea. I was really making some progress last night. Then as I did the rabbet for the tweeter on one of my front baffles I realized that the hole for the tweeter was at least 1/2" too big!!! I was pissed. Now I wasn't able to work on my speakers today, and tomorrow if I get to it I'll be building a new baffle. Hopefully I won't have any issues, but I guess nothing to do now but wait and see...


----------



## technimac

For any of you who are intending to build an active sub (perhaps 2 as bases for your HT mains), MCM only has 66 of the AudioSource amps that are listed as 50W but tested out at an honest 150W into 4 ohms. Check these out at MCM and search for code 58-9681. $29.95 each or $24.95 each @ 4+


I've ordered a number of them and will use them below my Audax HT mains in a 2.2cu ft vented side-firing config with Peerless 831727's.


They'll be gone by thanksgiving.

Cheers, Bruce


----------



## technimac

Here's the link (save ou the search, I hope).

http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebComme...KU=58-9681&N=4 


Good luck, Bruce


----------



## Gyvven

Technimac,


This was just the thing I was looking for. I don't need a rump thumper or anything, and my volume levels are pretty sedate, but I was looking for something to fill in the lows. This might do the trick.


I'm considering going with one of the low end dayton subs. Since we're going for cheap, but decent, I figure with this combo I can have a setup for just over $60 plus mdf, feet and port plus shipping.


By the way, I'm getting very close to having my first set of diy speakers completed. I'm working on a pair of MB20s from Dennis Murphy. Got all my parts except the ports and screws and goop to mount my x-overs. These will eventually become my surrounds once my wife is convinced that I can actually build these.


After that comes the sub, then my fronts and center. I had everything planned out except the sub. My fronts and centers are going to be CAOW1s with the center being an MTM design as soon as Dennis gets done with the x-over design. If that takes too long and my MB20s sound good, I'll just build 3 more while I wait. So far the measure twice (maybe 3 or 4 times) cut once is working for me. I've got very little sanding to do.


As far as finishes go, I'm going to roll on a flat or satin black paint. I'm not going to spend a lot of time and money on veneers until I know I'm making them right. At which point I'll be able to sell this first set up and build myself some higher end units with veneer this time.


Having fun, spending money, killing time.


Gyv


----------



## Johnla

If anyone is interested in those above mentioned AudioSource sub amps from MCM, then they best act quickly. Because they show it as having only 48 of them left, and when they are gone, that's it!


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Gyv,

I built the MBOW1s about a year ago. I use mine in our den for music since they meet the WAF. Mine use the GR-Research mid-woof instead of the Seas. The Hiquphon tweeters are amazing. I've always thought that the OW1 3-ways could be good HT front speakers. I've found my 2-ways very good for jazz and classical but seem to get a little harsh when played with RnR at higher volumes. That is probably because the mid driver gives out before the tweeters. I've always wondered why Dennis has never designed a full HT speaker system with a 3-way center. For your first speaker project, they are quite easy to build and as long as your HT is mid sized, you'll love them! You are going to need a decent subwoofer.


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


Probably the main reason Dennis hasn't done any HT designs (other than mine) is that he is not into HT. His listening is basically confined to 2-channel music reproduction.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jim,

I knew Dennis was a classical musician. That's why the MBOW1s perform so well with classical and jazz! But no interest in HT...???!!!


I have a few neighbors for whom I may build some speakers. I'm hoping I can convince someone to go for a set of your HT speakers. I'll have to build them w/a VERY low margin. I really just want to build them and break them in at my house;-) I'm workng on some folks on the million dollar side of da hood.


----------



## Gyvven

I had actually sent him (Dennis) an email about a week or 2 ago and he did say he was working on a center channel mtm design for the CAOW1s because of their lower bass response. Nothing in the works for the MBOW1s yet. Hence the waiting to build a 3-some.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys, I'm thinking about buying 1-3 sets of Audax HT drivers. A 5.1 system is approx $310. It looks like a lot of manufacturers are pulling out of the diy market. I don't know about companies like Scan Speak and Vifa, but I see the potential for prices really going up. It could come down to Dayton as the only inexpensive speakers left for the diy market. What's the latest in the rumor mill about diy? Jim Salk, what do you see going on in this market?


----------



## BigguyZ




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Guys, I'm thinking about buying 1-3 sets of Audax HT drivers. A 5.1 system is approx $310. It looks like a lot of manufacturers are pulling out of the diy market. I don't know about companies like Scan Speak and Vifa, but I see the potential for prices really going up. It could come down to Dayton as the only inexpensive speakers left for the diy market. What's the latest in the rumor mill about diy? Jim Salk, what do you see going on in this market?*



Jeff- Why pull the drivers off the market? It cannot benefit them unless there are large manufacturers threatening to stop using their drivers... Maybe I'm wrong but it doesn't seem to make sense. I'd be really bummed if the DIY audio scene died out before I was making some decent cash and was able to do something more impressive. As it is- I haven't ordered the surround kit yet. And I'd like a few backup drivers so that'd stink if the pull went through. Wasn't this a rumor like a YEAR ago??


----------



## BigguyZ

I was going to update my progress now as it is- but now seems like a especially good time if the Audax kit will no longer be available.


As some of you may know, is that my Ryobi router was stolen, along with all my other power tools. I got a new Porter Cable plung router, but I was grieved to discover that the Jasper jig I have does not have mounting holes for my model (who'd thunk it?). So here's a pic of the jig after modding it, along with the screws. I love it when you have to build tools to build somthing else...


----------



## BigguyZ

Here's a pic of my 1 1/4" round over bit, and those beautiful curves!


----------



## BigguyZ

Here's a series showing how I somewhat flush mounted my terminal cups.


----------



## BigguyZ

The next


----------



## BigguyZ

And the next...


----------



## BigguyZ

Final reslt. The first two were rough, the latter two were pretty good.


----------



## BigguyZ

The woofer after flush mounting.


----------



## BigguyZ

And the tweeter...


----------



## BigguyZ

Here's that mistake I believe I mentioned before. I did the rabbet for the tweeter and nearly screemed.


----------



## BigguyZ

The start of my solution. I doubled up on the front baffles, so here you see the inner baffle, which is "tucked in" on all four sides by the sides. I then took that thin section and used a flush trim bit to get another panel the same size so that that panel too fits snug inside the enclosure.


----------



## BigguyZ

Here you see the two new lamenated panels for the baffle, now rough cut and snug within the main body.


----------



## BigguyZ

Now the baffle is trimmed with a flush trim bit.


----------



## BigguyZ

And finally you see the baffle here with the 1 1/4" roundover and the rabbet cutouts for the drivers. Not bad, in fact it's without the knicks that the original baffle had aquired over time. It didn't quite fit as well as the first one however....


----------



## BigguyZ

I didn't want the lighter raw MDF to show out from the edges of the drives, especially with the veneer that going to be stained. To prevent that, I painted the edges and the recess for the terminal cups, and the port holes.


----------



## BigguyZ

I realized that with the enclosures built with the front baffle open, I wasn't able to use my drill to mount the crossovers on the side panel. Here's my solution, a flexable shaft for the drill $15 at HD. Has anyone else found that a single DIY project can have a HUGE affect of how many tools you have?


----------



## BigguyZ

Crossovers mounted with plastic standoffs from HD. I really like the way this method of mounting the crossovers looks, and it's rock solid.


----------



## BigguyZ

Front enclosure sealed, gaps filled and sanded smooth.


----------



## BigguyZ

The top of the first speaker, Taken after I used a flush trim bit to get the excess veneer. The flush trim bit left bits of the veneer hanging on the edge, I then used a piece of 220 grit sand paper to lightly sand the bits off.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Guys, I'm thinking about buying 1-3 sets of Audax HT drivers. A 5.1 system is approx $310. It looks like a lot of manufacturers are pulling out of the diy market. I don't know about companies like Scan Speak and Vifa, but I see the potential for prices really going up. It could come down to Dayton as the only inexpensive speakers left for the diy market. What's the latest in the rumor mill about diy?*



Just from what I've seen so far at the partsexpress forum.


Audax, Scan Speak and a few others are either cutting back or getting out of the DIY market entirely. As for Vifa, I think they are both cutting back and also consolidating/combining a lot of the Vifa line in with their Scan speak product line. And Audax, Dynaudio, Focal and Seas are some of the ones that are reportedly completely dropping out of the DIY market. And there was rumors at one time, that Morel was possibly considering dropping out of the DIY market also. A lot of the new Dayton drivers look real nice, and I think maybe when some people publish some of their designs for them, that then the loss of some of the other brands may not be quite so bad.

The Usher line of drivers also looks really nice, but with their higher prices they certainly should look good. The DIY market would really get sucky fast, if it ends up that all that there is to use, is drivers that are in the $75-$100+ ranges. Which is why I hope there is always some good drivers that are priced more in the range of those that are used in the Audax HT design.


I just bought some of the new Dayton 7" Reference series drivers, and I'm looking to try making a set of MTM's using the Morel MDT-20 tweeters. To me at least, it looks like they should make a good combination. And seeing how no one else has done this "combination" yet.. It also looks like I'm probably going to get a few good/bad tastes of how not to make a crossover, in order to find out how to hopefully make a good one....

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=295-364 

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=277-030


----------



## BigguyZ

So here's a pic to show you just how I veneered the fronts. That's a fun story. I originally thought I'd do the fronts like JL and just about every single other audax builder. Then I bought my Veneer. I got 2 rolls of Mahogany 2'x8'. I thought that since the height of the front isn't more than 2', I could round all four corners and use a single piece around the entire enclosure. I like the look of all four corners rounded too, so it seemed like a good idea. This is where knowing how the grain for the veneer is in relation to the roll/ sheet you buy. The grain was parallel to the 8' length. Meaning that I'd have to veneer with the grain going accross the face of the speaker horizontally, not vertically. This would be almost do-able. I tried the lay a section over the corner, and with such a large radius it may have went fine as far as getting it to attach to the speaker. However, I wanted the grain to be vertical on the speaker face. So- my solution was to cut the section length=wise and cirlce the font, back, and sides with two pieces of venner, with seems on the sides. You can see what I mean from the pic.


----------



## BigguyZ

With the seams as they are, I was really worried about them being noticable. It's one thing if they're on the back, but on the side it's more likely someone will see them. I was happy with this seem. You cannot see it.


----------



## BigguyZ

Here's a seem that didn't go too well. I ended up filling the space with wood filler, and sanding smooth. It shows with the stain, but it's not too bad. Then again it's never good at all when yyou can see any defect.


----------



## BigguyZ

The back of the veneered front.


----------



## BigguyZ

And the front. That's all for now. I have several more pics, but I'll show you haw the finishing ended up once it's all done. It's past my bedtime and 6am starts early in the morning.




All of this talk about drivers no longer being available is really bumming me out. I was hoping to build at least one set of high end stereo speakers, maybe even a line array, But now I have an empty apt and a duplex I have a mortage for- fo I'm hoping that at the very least the kits are available until I can afford to buy the surrounds!! Doea anyone have any indication as to WHY they're pulling out? Are they losing $$??


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *I got a new Porter Cable plunge router, but I was grieved to discover that the Jasper jig I have does not have mounting holes for my model (who'd thunk it?). So here's a pic of the jig after modding it, along with the screws. I love it when you have to build tools to build something else...*



That is strange. From what I have seen, fitting a Porter Cale router is almost considered a "standard" for accessories. Because it seems that for most router accessories, making them to fit the Porter Cable routers is somewhat of a priority.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *And the front. That's all for now. I have several more pics, but I'll show you haw the finishing ended up once it's all done. It's past my bedtime and 6am starts early in the morning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of this talk about drivers no longer being available is really bumming me out. I was hoping to build at least one set of high end stereo speakers, maybe even a line array, But now I have an empty apt and a duplex I have a mortage for- fo I'm hoping that at the very least the kits are available until I can afford to buy the surrounds!! Doea anyone have any indication as to WHY they're pulling out? Are they losing $$??*



Your pictures look great. I love the large radius round-over corners.


I somehow doubt that the DIY loudspeaker market will suldenly cease to exist. Places like Partexpress exist specifically because of manufacturers overruns and design changes since most manufacturers do not specifically target the DIY market. Specific drivers may become harder to find, but others will become available.


I also doubt that the DIY market is driving any speaker manufacturer out of business. If anything, it is the desire to have exclusive rights to a driver.


Keep the pictures coming... and dream of those line arrays you now have all the tools to build...










Joe L.


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


Manufacturers come and go in the DIY market. One thing to remember is that DIY suppliers can still purchase in manufacturing quantities and re-sell. For example, Focal drivers are no longer being sold to the DIY market, but Zalytron still offers a fairly complete Focal line. They simply purchase in manufacturing quantities and re-sell them.


Also, speaker manufacturers often sell their overstock to DIY suppliers.


So drivers for particular designs may not be available long-term, but there seems to be a constant supply of new drivers hitting the DIY market all the time. I'm certainly not worried.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Thanks Jim,

I have a few people who have expressed interest in me building them a set of Audax HT speakers. I figured I'd better buy the parts before there are none available. But, PE is certainly large enough to buy these in manufacturer quantities. However, even they don't have some products like the Seas 9500 tweeters anymore. I did notice that Madisound does.

Jeff


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Thanks Jim,
> 
> I have a few people who have expressed interest in me building them a set of Audax HT speakers. I figured I'd better buy the parts before there are none available. But, PE is certainly large enough to buy these in manufacturer quantities.*



This was just posted at the Parts Express forum by Darren, about the future availability of the Audax DIY drivers from now on.

http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=195925 


"Actually, Audax is already done supplying drivers to the DIY community. Knowing this was coming up, we purchased a pretty hefty quantity of some of their more popular models. As such, we have a decent supply of some of the models. If you have our new catalog, most of the stuff in there we have a pretty good number of. If its not in the catalog, then its probably just a few here and there."


----------



## Gyvven

Well, it seems I've begun a new hobby only to have it yanked away...again. Sorry guys, it's all my fault. Story of my life... woe's me...butter side down... :'(


Ok, enough self-pity. So, how many other manufacturers are going to decide to pull out of the DIY market? Or how many of the current really good designs out there are going to need to be modified to take a new set of drivers? I know the pro-audio supplier by me has stopped carrying drivers and other things for diy and is strictly concentrating on commercial installations.


I wonder what kind of order some of these manufacturers require for a minimum? I was hoping maybe I could make a little money off this hobby.


Maybe this will help put a sense of urgency in my wife to at least let me build the rest of my 5.1.


Oh well,


Gyv


----------



## jsalk

Gyvven -


I wouldn't worry too much. New drivers come, old drivers go and there are always new and updated designs.


In terms of minimums, usually there is a specific dollar amount or a specific minimum number of drivers you must order. Typically it is 50 units.


But there will continue to be suppliers to the DIY market as it is growing steadily. Someone will continue to exploit it. The drivers that are available today range from budget to among the best there is. While the specific drivers will change, high and low end drivers will continue to be available.


With high-end drivers this is especially true. The reason is that R&D costs are high and volume is low. Many of these companies need to sell to the DIY market in order to cover development costs. They don't make a lot of money on high end drivers, but that is where they establish their reputations. So they need to develop high end product and need to sell it somewhere. The DIY market is a good outlet.


- Jim


----------



## BigguyZ

Can someone explain why cutting out of the DIY market is beneficial at all to a company?? I guess it's official and Audax will soon be gone forever, but WHY? It doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## jsalk

BigguyZ -


It is mainly to protect the interests of large commercial customers (retail speaker manufacturers). They want "exclusive" drivers you can only get by purchasing their speakers.


The other reason is that they do not prefer to sell in smaller quantities. Even though there may be many DIY'ers, the volume of any given driver purchased by the DIY community pales in comparison to the volume generated by a large manufacturer.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Jim,

How does this change in market strategy affect your business?


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


It really doesn't. I choose drivers for performance and know that the drivers I use have a life span. If you purchased a speaker from a retail manufacturer, you wouldn't expect to be able to purchase a matching speaker 5 years later. After all, models change. Why should a DIY design be any different?


I have mentioned the MBOW1 in this thread before. This design began quite a few years ago and I don't recall who was responsible for the original or what it was called. Dennis Murphy took that basic design, refined it and developed what he called the SPCA Special. When the drivers were no longer available, he modified the design and created the MBOW1. He has since developed the CAOW1. Today, none of the drivers are the same as the original design. And the speakers are better for it. If none of the present drivers are available in the future, there will be replacements that will be better.


So I expect that in time, I will have to either modify my designs to accomodate new drivers, or more probably, develop totally new models (which I enjoy thinking about anyway).


I have done one thing recently, however, that I have never done before. I spent 8 months trying out various woofers (from some of the best names in the business) when I was developing the Veracity HT3's. But I just wasn't satisfied with any of them for one reason or another.


So I finally contacted TC Sounds and talked to their engineers about what I was looking for. They did a prototype pair for me and it was perfect. But they don't sell to the DIY market. So I ordered a manufacturing run.


It was an investment I decided to make in order to have the drivers I really wanted. And I now have a pretty good supply.


I know a few people who offer DIY kits who have done the same thing. If you are willing to purchase a manufacturing run, you can get any driver you want.


But for the most part, this is not necessary. There are a great many very good drivers available to DIY'ers and more are being added every month. Some are no longer available, that is true. But I don't think it will ever get to the point where great drivers are not available.


I hope that makes sense.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *Jeff -
> 
> 
> I hope that makes sense.
> 
> 
> - Jim*



Jim,

It makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification. My business is so rigid that the idea of something just not being available would be very serious. I'm glad to hear you are able to keep updating your products. Someday, I still want to build a set.


----------



## BigguyZ

Jim,

Your response has definitely put me more at ease. I'm not going to wait to order the audax surrounds- but now I know that this hobby in general won't go away.


What I'm also concerned about is the availability of designs to build. Now it doesn't seem like a huge issue- but didn't Audax Pay D'Appolito for his design of the HT speakers so many of us have built? If manufacturers aren't footing the bill for these designs, then that leaves the general public and small businesses to do it. The thing I liked about the hobby was not having to worry I'm going to screw the design up. If I build a box wrong, it's easy to measure that. If my crossover is incorrect- I won't know with my current knowledge/ equipment. Know what I mean? You may be able to get the drivers- but what about those beloved time-tested designs?


----------



## jsalk

BigguyZ -


There are many, many good designs out there in the public domain. The challenge is separating the wheat from the chaff. Actually, many of these designs are superior to the ones manufacturers publish themselves.


No offense to D'Applolito (after all, he sure knows his stuff), but some of his designs for manufacturer's do not stack up that well against more polished designs from lesser-known designers.


None of the better designs I have heard are free designs developed by or for manufacturers. These are often what I would call "quick and dirty" designs used to sell drivers. Many of them can be improved upon.


If you ever need help finding a good design, perhaps I can recommend one based on your needs. I do have an opportunity to build many different designs and compare them. I also frequently get a chance to hear designs I did not build. So while I have certainly not heard them all, I have had a chance to sort through quite a few of them.


- Jim


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *BigguyZ -
> 
> 
> ......No offense to D'Applolito (after all, he sure knows his stuff), but some of his designs for manufacturer's do not stack up that well against more polished designs from lesser-known designers.
> 
> 
> None of the better designs I have heard are free designs developed by or for manufacturers. These are often what I would call "quick and dirty" designs used to sell drivers. Many of them can be improved upon.
> 
> 
> - Jim*



I'm sure Joe did his best with what he had to work with ( in this case the Audax drivers). As you surely know first hand Jim, there are always compromises when you design a speaker. Joe had to work with the HT drivers, and deliver something that both sounded good and did break the bank. Very expensive designs can sway folks away when their wallet is not compatible with the design.










I've built the Audax A652, a design by Vance Dickasen using carbon fiber woofers. They sound absolutely amazing. These are much more expensive to build compared to the HT L/R speakers, but I think the quality of the drivers in this system far out weigh price (at least for me anyway).


OK, I'll stop rambling.......................


----------



## jsalk

Calabs -


You are absolutely right. Joe is one of the best and has to play the hand he is dealt. The quality of his work is certainly first class. But the advantage independent designers have is the ability to choose the best drivers available to meet their design criteria. This is not the case when the manufacturer is footing the design bill.


- Jim


----------



## Vper

Sorry for not back reading posts, I get emailed notifications about posts to this forum cause I subscribe to it.


The Audax kits are/will not be available any more? Or are the drivers/speakers being substituted with something else and the kits are still available?


I was interested in building a set in the next 6 months or so, after my daughter got married...


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *Calabs -
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right. Joe is one of the best and has to play the hand he is dealt. The quality of his work is certainly first class. But the advantage independent designers have is the ability to choose the best drivers available to meet their design criteria. This is not the case when the manufacturer is footing the design bill.
> 
> 
> - Jim*



Jim - I agree with you completely. There clearly lies the advantage of a "no restrictions" kind of design. Case in point: the Aria design series (I believe they used Focal drivers if I recall). A really nice sounding speaker.

Ralph


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I would suggest that you buy the drivers now and wait until you are ready to build before buying the crossover components. OTOH, PE and Madisound may be considered manufacturers by Audax. If that is true, the supply may be around for a while. You may want to order an extra or two in case something happens. One note: I bought my original set from Madisound and each driver came in it's original box (excellent package). When I bought another set from PE, some of them were wrapped in cardboard cone-to-cone. I received one that was completely destroyed. When I removed it from the cardboard, the magnet fell off onto the floor. They replaced it quickly. That being said, if you do buy them now from PE which is less expensive than Mad, check them for damage if they are not in their original Audax boxes.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *Sorry for not back reading posts, I get emailed notifications about posts to this forum cause I subscribe to it.
> 
> 
> The Audax kits are/will not be available any more? Or are the drivers/speakers being substituted with something else and the kits are still available?
> 
> 
> I was interested in building a set in the next 6 months or so, after my daughter got married...*


----------



## Vper

Thanks for the info and advice Jeff.


I might do that, order the speakers, and then build them later. Never thought of that.


If I don't what kit would you recommend as a suitalble replacement for the Audax that compares in both cost and sound?


I'll have to re-read the whole thread...


----------



## J. L.

A number of months ago I ordered a replacement driver from Madisound. At that time, they too had placed a very large order with Audax to stock the drivers for the Audx HT Kit they sell. (Audax had already removed their US web-site at that point as one of the first steps in getting out of the DIY market in the US. Interestingly, the French web-site with info on their drivers is still in place)


I've got a feeling that 6 months from now you would still be able to purchase drivers from PE or Madisound.


I would call each supplier and confirm availability... or... order the drivers now as already suggested if you are able.


Joe L.


----------



## jsalk

Joe -


I have had customers order drivers from other countries when they weren't available here. That is always a last resort, but if you search, you can usually find almost any current driver somewhere. One they out shipped from the manufacturer, they are very hard to control


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

For the price, I don't know of another. However, there are some other HT designs posted at PE, speakerbuilder.net and at Zalytron. If you want to go high end, Jim Salk's new system looks really nice.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *Thanks for the info and advice Jeff.
> 
> 
> I might do that, order the speakers, and then build them later. Never thought of that.
> 
> 
> If I don't what kit would you recommend as a suitalble replacement for the Audax that compares in both cost and sound?
> 
> 
> I'll have to re-read the whole thread...*


----------



## Rop

A question for Jim in particular, though anyone that has information is certainly welcome to respond:


I'm in the process of building the Audax speaker set (a slow and ongoing process for me) and just finished veneering the first front speaker. I'm using the same method described by others, putting on yellow wood glue on both MDF and veneer, then using a hot iron to laminate the two together. This works, but I am not impressed with the strength of the bond. It's kind of iffy. I am fairly sure I put enough glue on both sides, used a small foam roller for that and got a very even coat of decent thickness. Also tried different heat settings for the iron, but that didn't seem to make much difference. It's sticking well enough, but there are small sections around the edge that I had to re-do, and any small force will make a little bit of it come loose. What I mean is, yes, it sticks but it's not a strong bond.


I know the "yellow glue method" is not actually a recommended way to apply veneer. In fact, the guy in the woodworking shop where I bought the veneer had this look on his face saying "there's another amateur idiot" when I described it to him. He insisted the proper way was with contact glue. So, my question, how does one properly apply veneer? If it's contact glue, what glue does one use? In particular, how does Jim S. do this? I can't imagine using a roller to get contact glue on, sounds like it would be a bleeding mess. So, just pretend you're talking to a rank amateur (which is about true), and give enough detail for someone like me to repeat the process.


Thanks!


-Rob-


----------



## jsalk

Rop -


I have never had great success with the wood glue/iron-on method. My guess is that I was over-heating the glue. You may have better luck clamping it with a cawl made of 3/4" MDF. I don't know. I just don't like that method.


The critical question is whether or not you are using backed veneer. If you are, water-based contact cement (Home Deopt sells Wilsonart brand) works best. I have never had a problem. Put two coats on the MDF and two on the veneer, wait 20 minutes and carefully apply. Use your fist to pound it down. It won't delaminate at a later date.


I have never had great luck with solvent-based contact cement. It holds well for a while and six months later there are bubbles where the veneer lifts away from the substraight.


If you are using raw veneer, you might also try it with a cawl. But my advice for anyone contemplating using raw veneer is get a veneer press. I know this is painful (they are not inexpensive). But once I bit the bullet, I have been able to turn out one perfect veneering job after another.


There is no substitute for 2 tons of pressure per square foot. I puts it down plat!


I hope this helps. If not, ask additional questions.


- Jim


----------



## Rop

Thanks Jim! Greatly appreciated!

Being at my stage of woodworking the only viable option is paper backed, so that's what I'm using. I will look into water-based contact cement. How do you put it on? Small foam roller?


A veneer press sure sounds nice, but this is not going to happen in the visible future. I'm at the stage where the gift I asked from Santa is a table saw (a DeWalt DW746XB to be exact). So, my hope is that I'll be able to actually saw panels/boards to exact sizes, with exact square corners. Not just for speaker building but a numer of other projects that are on my list. My current method of rough-sawing using a hand-held circular saw, then using a router to make them to size, works only so-so. Only the great foamy (and filling) properties of PU glue saved me from disaster!










-Rob-


----------



## jsalk

Rop -


Yes, I use small disposable foam rollers to apply the water-based contact cement.


I'll give you another tip. Let's say you veneered the bottom and you are now going to apply contact cement to the back. You can be very careful and still get contact cement on the previously applied panel.


Here's what I do to prevent this: I take 2" 3M blue painters tape and tape over any corners where the new panel is adjacent to any panel previously veneered.


But lining up the tape perfectly with the edge is tricky. So I actually overlap the edge and take 100-grit sandpaper and sand over the edge. This "cuts" the tape perfectly on the edge where the two panels will meet.


Now the tape protects the previously veneered panel and prevents it from exposure to contact cement (which can be hard to remove - you can actually sand through the veneer trying to sand it off).


I hope that makes sense.


- Jim


----------



## moonhawk

Rop...Be aware that even with a table saw, you need to be extremely careful in order to get the precision you want.


Make sure it is calibrated properly, (for distance of blade to fence, fence parallel to blade and miter slots, blade at perfect 90 degrees to table top), and a good quality clean and sharp blade.


I usually cut large sheets down to slightly oversize before cutting to final dimensions.


They are great tools, but not a magic bullet if you aren't careful.


That said, I hope Santa comes through for you...A good tablesaw is the heart of a good wood shop.


Have fun, and watch your fingers...I know!.


----------



## Rop

Thank you Jim! Good advise that I'll try on the other front speaker that still needs to get veneered.


Moonhawk, Santa is reliable, the saw is in fact arriving tomorrow....









I've counted all my fingers and will do so again after each cut, just to be on the safe side. Actually, I got a book on setting up and using a table saw . It's not bad for someone like me, with no prior knowledge of the subject, and if nothing else it very much stresses safety and the risks associated with table saws. I wasn't aware of some of the risks, and the underlying mechanics of them, so it's good to read up on this before use.


One more question for the experts: Does anyone have experience with Flexible Sheet Veneer (FSV) Adhesive? . The price is not bad, one gallon would go quite a ways. Is this for applying veneer with a roller, or does it require vacuum bagging? Given the long open time I suspect it won't work for jobs that require veneer to be bent around a corner (as is the case with speakers), at least not without some means to keep the veneer in place while it cures.


-Rob-


----------



## timle

"order the drivers now as already suggested if you are able."


I used this availability question to convince myself to upgrade my audax 5.1 set to 7.1 and ordered another pair of rear surrounds. Well on my way now to having 7.1 in the theater as planned.


On the veneer issue, I used contact glue and just brushed it on. I had no trouble getting it to stay on nicely.


----------



## jsalk

Rop -


That Flexible Sheet Veneer type of adhsive is meant primarily for a vaccum press. It has a relatively short set time that speeds up the process. Some rigid glues need to be in the press for up to 4 hours. Less rigid glues, like PVA glues - yellow or white) usually require about 2 hours in the press. The more rigid the glue, the better it holds long-term. More rigid glues are recommended for burls and less stable veneers that are harder to hold down. With backed veneers, this is not an issue.


- Jim


----------



## Vper

If I wanted to build a 7.1 system, I would need to buy 10 AP170ZO

woofers, and 7 TM025F1 tweeters.


The center, left, right and surrounds use the same woofers and tweeters correct?


I was looking at parts express, and they have the tweeters for $13.80, and the woofers for $26.50


----------



## timle

Correct.


2 each in R/C/L - 6

1 each in RS, LS, RR, LR - 4

= 10


1 tweet in each speaker.


Don't forget the AP130Z0 Aerogel 5 in the center.





> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *If I wanted to build a 7.1 system, I would need to buy 10 AP170ZO
> 
> woofers, and 7 TM025F1 tweeters.
> 
> 
> The center, left, right and surrounds use the same woofers and tweeters correct?
> 
> 
> I was looking at parts express, and they have the tweeters for $13.80, and the woofers for $26.50*


----------



## tjt123

Jim,


When using the vacuum press, are you able to put the entire speaker in the press? In other words, do you build the box; put on the veneer then do all the cutouts? Or, do you veneer the individual boards in the press then assemble them together?


I'm contemplating building a DIY vacuum press as Santa is bringing me a 30 gallon air compressor and I saw some plans out there for a DIY press that works using a venturi pump but needs a larger air compressor to run.


-TIM


----------



## DLK




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *If I wanted to build a 7.1 system, I would need to buy 10 AP170ZO
> 
> woofers, and 7 TM025F1 tweeters.*



The center channel needs an AP130Z0 as well.


-Dan


----------



## Vper

Opps!


Missed that one...


Is parts express a good place to source these from? How is there packaging


Thanks for the advice.


----------



## Rop

Scotty,


I bought everthing from Parts Express at the time. Their packaging was good, one resistor arrived broken (but it probably went into the package broken from the looks of it) and they immidiately sent out a replacement. Excellent service in case something does go wrong.


If you're interested, here is a spreadsheet with all the parts for a 5.0 system. Prices may have changed a little since.


In case you don't already have them, here are all the plans as well:

Main document describing all speakers, crossovers etc. 
Center speaker 
Front speakers 
Surround speakers 
Subwoofer 


Have fun!


-Rob-


----------



## DLK

Looking at the Zalytron website, I see pretty good sale prices on the limited quantity of Audax drivers applicable to the HT setup:


AP130Z0 5.25" Aerogel $20.00 22 Pieces

AP170Z0 6.50" Aerogel $25.00 32 Pieces


I don't see the TM025F1 tweeter in the list, but I see listings for the kits in the HT section.


-Dan


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Dan,

If you'll look back a page or two, you'll see my post about packaging. I purchased my originals in 2002 from Madisound and everything was in an original Audax box (excellent packaging). I've purchased two additional sets from PE and none were in the original boxes. One was terminally damaged (pun intended) but they immediately replaced it. PE is definitely less expensive. I've ordered lots of stuff from them and they are great to deal with!


----------



## DLK

Jeff,


You'll get no argument from me about PE service. Darren has done an outstanding job of managing PE's loudspeaker operation (and as a consequence, I've chosen to unload a good bit of cash with them). I just noticed the Zalytron (with whom I've also had good service) prices when I was looking for something unrelated, and assumed that a forum reader might be interested in taking advantage of it. I also have no problems with the unpainted shield bells and non-factory packaging on the Audax drivers from PE, which, I assume, was a reasonable cost savings measure.


-Dan


----------



## jsalk

Tim -


I build my cabinets first and then veneer them. I even do the cutouts before I veneer so I can round-over the internal edges. However, I do not rabbit for flush mounting until the cabinet is finished.


The only thing you have to be careful of is making sure the cabinet is well-braced. Remember, there is about 2 tons of pressure per square foot on the cabinet. If it isn't well brace, it can implode.


- Jim


----------



## tjt123

Jim,


The implosion was what I was worried about. 


If you cut your holes before you use the vacuum press on the veneer how do you keep it from crushing through your veneer into the hole probably destroying your bag in the process? Do you put some sort of divider on top of the the veneer between the bag and the veneer? I'm picturing something like this:


Outside Air

Vacuum Bag

Some sort of divider

Veneer

Glue

MDF (with holes cut in it)


Inside of cabinet


MDF (with holes cut in it)

Glue

Veneer

Some sort of divider

Vacuum Bag

Outside Air


If so, what do you use?


-TIM


----------



## jsalk

Tim -


You MUST cover all exposed holes or the bag will be damaged! With vinyl bags, they will implode. With more expensive poly bags, they will permanently deform.


In addition, you must use a cawl between the bag and the veneer being applied. The bag itself should never touch the veneer being applied. If you fail to do this, the veneer will break at all the edges and will leave chip-outs.


I use pressobard wall paneling material covered with smooth white masonite. I cut it 1/4" larger on all sides than the panel I am veneering. This protects the veneer edges and provides a perfectly flat platten to press the veneer flat. The veneer glue will not stick to the masonite and will allow you to remove the cawl without problems.


On panels where I have already cut driver holes, you need something more substantial. I use 1/2" MDF, again cut 1/4" larger on all sides. If you don't do this, the press will suck the cawl into the speaker cutout, raising it up slightly all around the hole. You will even see some of this effect with the 1/2" MDF, but that area will later be removed when you rabbit the cutouts to flish mount the drivers.


I hope this makes sense.


- Jim


----------



## Vper

Thanks for the help guys.


To order from Zalytron, just give 'em a call?


----------



## timle

I've ordered all my audax speakers from madisound in the kits and have not been disappointed. Well packed, speedy shipping, and excellent service on the phone when I had a brain fart about hooking up the crossovers they shipped with the center.


On a side note as seem to live in some sort of magic zone where madisound and parts express orders both show up the next day if I order before the truck goes out that afternoon.


----------



## Vper

Thanks tmle. I thought I might try Zalytron, they would save me over $125 over parts express. Although their website is not order friendly.


When you build the crossovers, what do you put them on?


I see from some of the pictures that some put them on pegboard. Or is that not peg board?


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *Thanks tmle. I thought I might try Zalytron, they would save me over $125 over parts express. Although their website is not order friendly.
> 
> 
> When you build the crossovers, what do you put them on?
> 
> 
> I see from some of the pictures that some put them on pegboard. Or is that not peg board?*



When you call Zalytron, ask for Elliot. He's very helpful in getting what you need. I've always used pegboard for my xovers. I use the holes to screw on the connectors. Take a look here for an illustration (under crossover construction):

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...er-9-2001.html


----------



## timle

The audax kits from madisound come with the crossovers assembled. I'll work on the cabinets and let someone else handle building the crossover.


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by timle_
> *The audax kits from madisound come with the crossovers assembled. I'll work on the cabinets and let someone else handle building the crossover.*



Oh come on!!!!! Now where's the fun in THAT??







Don't you enjoy the smell of solder and flux burning? I thought this was a DIY thread??










What xover parts are they including with the kit? The last time I checked (several years ago when the kits were first made available) the quality of the parts weren't that great. They may have changed that, however.


Ralph Calabria


----------



## BigguyZ

I haven't had any problems with my kits. I'm no expert but the parts seem fine enough. I did upgrade the caps on the midrange crossover though...


----------



## timle

I wouldn't know a quality cap or resistor from a non quality one so I've got no idea on the crossover parts. All I can say is I love the way my audax kits perform and the crossovers do appear to work well.


If you order 1 center, 1 front, and 2 rear kits from madisound it will cost you 8 dollars less than the same kits from zalytron. Its possible the zalytron crossover parts are better, I've got no idea. But going by the kit prices its a dead heat.


----------



## jsalk

At these kit prices, I don't think the difference in crossover parts quality is anything to lose sleep over. I would guess they are pretty much all in the same general ballpark. I would be very surprised if there was any audible difference.


- Jim


----------



## Vper

Well I took the first step in building my set of Audax home theater speakers. I bought all the mid, tweeters, and woofers that I need to build a 7.1 system. Well the 7, I'll still keep the woofer I have.


My current set of speakers consists of a Sony center and two surrounds (called satellites then) from about 10 years ago. (I used them with the, WOW, 4.1 system.) 2 JBL towers for the left and right which I bought to replace the MTX speakers I had from the 80's for the stereo.(Cone rot). All used with my surround VCR!


Then I built a dedicated theater I got a a Panasonic 912K reciever with auto-level correction which went a long way in getting my mish-mash speakers set to a level which was listener friendly. Then I added a back set of JBL "mini's" (I think they're JBL"s) the size of the Bose home theater package. I actually liked these sound-wise over Bose, and they were only $30 for the pair.


Needless to say these are about unmatched as you can get. The center and surrounds together weight less than one of the surrounds from the Audax set.



I can't wait to get started on the center channel.


Does Parts Express sell the crossovers prebuilt? I can build them, but just thought I'd ask.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Good luck and congratulations! The center is the most difficult to build and also the centerpiece (pun intended) of the entire system. Be sure you have the correct xover schematic. The one on the website was incorrect.


----------



## Vper

I remember that about the x-over. Thanks for the reminder!


Can anyone post the correct one? Again.....










Thanks.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *Does Parts Express sell the crossovers prebuilt? I can build them, but just thought I'd ask.*



No Parts Express does not, but I'm pretty sure that Madisound does.


Also, you can also find the x-over schematics and the cabinet building plans at the Madisound web site.


----------



## Vper

Cool, Johnla,


I'll look there. Madisound isn't far from where I live, about 50 miles.


Thanks.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Both JR and I have used the pre-assembled xovers from Madisound. I've also built them from parts purchased through PE. Madisound will also upgrade them for you if you'd rather use different caps or inductors.


----------



## Vper

Jeff,


What difference would I notice if Madisound "upgraded" the caps and inductors?


Would it be noticable from a sound stand point, durability, or both?


----------



## BigguyZ

I upgraded the caps. Don't know if I'll here a sound difference, but it was recomended and only cost $10.


AUDAX BUILDERS- Does anyone know the efficiency of the Audax set??? I'm just curious.


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *I upgraded the caps. Don't know if I'll here a sound difference, but it was recomended and only cost $10.
> 
> 
> AUDAX BUILDERS- Does anyone know the efficiency of the Audax set??? I'm just curious.*



Take it for what it's worth (from the original text of the HT kit)


"Don't skimp on crossover components. High quality Mylar or metalized polypropylene capacitors with at least a 100V rating should be used in all crossovers. Air-core inductors are recommended for all coils except for the woofer crossover coil in the center channel speaker. Because of its large value, a high quality ferrite or iron core coil is specified here. Wire size and resistance are specified for each coil. In general you should avoid the urge to increase wire size for lower resistance. In most cases, the coil resistance is critical to controlling crossover Q. Lower resistance can lead to undesirable crossover response peaking."


I would also add that the sand cast resistors should be replaced with something a little more durable. I'm a big fan of North Creek's Ohmite resistors, but that's just my preference.


Regarding your question on efficiency, the center and fronts are rated at 87.5 dB and the rears are 88 dB.

Ralph


----------



## BigguyZ

Thanks Calabs


----------



## Rop

Calabs, why would sandcast resistors not be durable? I've been using them for decades and have yet to see one fail. I'm not aware of any particular failure mode with them in fact. As all resister types I've used, pretty much the only way I know of killing a resistor is by overloading (cooking) them.


-Rob-


----------



## Vper

I emailed Madisound about the crossovers for the Audax set.


Center $65 for all 3 boards.

Fronts $45 both boards.

Surrounds $23.5 each board.


So $250 for 7 speakers. Not too bad.


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rop_
> *Calabs, why would sandcast resistors not be durable? I've been using them for decades and have yet to see one fail. I'm not aware of any particular failure mode with them in fact. As all resister types I've used, pretty much the only way I know of killing a resistor is by overloading (cooking) them.
> 
> 
> -Rob-*



Hi Rop -

Rather than me give a lengthy description of key differences in resistor types, please take a look at what George has to say about it on the North Creek website:

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/OHMITE.html 


Hope this helps answer your question.

Ralph


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *I emailed Madisound about the crossovers for the Audax set.
> 
> 
> So $250 for 7 speakers. Not too bad.*



No, it's not that bad at all. And unless someone really wanted to do their own for some reason, at that price it's probably worth having them pre-made for you.


----------



## Rop




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Calabs_
> *Hi Rop -
> 
> Rather than me give a lengthy description of key differences in resistor types, please take a look at what George has to say about it on the North Creek website:
> 
> http://www.northcreekmusic.com/OHMITE.html
> 
> 
> Hope this helps answer your question.
> 
> Ralph*



Hi Ralph,


Actually, it doesn't. The whole story at that URL sounds a lot like auditive snake oil to a me (from an electrical engineering perspective). The fact that their resistors are 10x the price of regular wirewound (sandcast) resistors wouldn't have anything to do with it I suppose...


Of course, if that's what you want to spend your money on be my guest. To each his own. Personally I would not.


-Rob-


----------



## jsalk

Rob -


George Short at North Creek Music has been around a long time and does first-rate work. Some think he goes overboard on crossover parts quality, but his products are always first rate. His cabinet construction booklet is near legendary.


Like you, I have my doubts about some of his philosophies. But if you subscribe to them in total, once thing is certain - you will end up with the best sound the drivers are capable of producing. So I guess it is kind of like insurance. I wouldn't buy it, but those who do will not have to second-guess anything except price.


- Jim


----------



## Rop

Hi Jim,


I've seen many audio experts that are very good at what they do (and deservedly respected) make statements that just don't make much sense from an electrical engineering point of view (which, as it happens, I consider myself to be more than somewhat knowledgeable in). In this particular case it would be pretty easy to measure what he's claiming, but there is a glaring absence of such.


Anyway, it is a discussion I would really love to have with you around a fire, with a few beers, and a couple of Veracities playing our favorite music! As we both know, this type of argument on these forums tends to draw out the more extreme elements on both sides and degenerate pretty quickly. This is one thread I would very much like to see avoid an end like that.


I think enough has been said for those new to speaker building, and cross-over building in particular, to draw their own conclusions and figure out where spending their money will make most sonic difference. With that I will shut up and stop talking about the merits of various types of resistors...


-Rob-


----------



## moonhawk

Seems simple enough to me...


The main point by George North is that sand cast resistors value change with heat/current. That's either true of false.


Crossovers are dependent on R values...If the R value of one type of resistor fluctuates in the system, seems to me that would be detrimental to function of the crossover.


One of you electrical types should be able to do a test.


I believe George said these had been tested...


(1) Audio Amateur (now Audio Electronics) "Piece de Resistance" 1994, by Duncan and Colloms, published by Old Colony Sound Lab, PO Box 576, Peterborough, NH 03458



But I HATE it when y'all fight!...


----------



## jsalk

Rob -


I do have a fireplace, a pair of Veracity HT3's, great music and the beers are always cold. You are welcome anytime. I would enjoy it.


- Jim


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *Rob -
> 
> 
> I do have a fireplace, a pair of Veracity HT3's, great music and the beers are always cold. You are welcome anytime. I would enjoy it.
> 
> 
> - Jim*



I apologize if I caused such a "disruption in the force"!







Just giving my point of view based on what I've read. But I do know one thing.....once I secure my xover boards and close up my DIY speakers, I really don't want to have to worry about whether ANY component will fail somewhere down the road. If I'm spending all this time (I'd hate to put a price tag on that) on building my own cabinets, and shelling out bucks for drivers, and all the peripherals, spending a few extra bucks on xover components is a small percentage of the whole deal. As jsalk mentions, George has been around for a long time. He is very knowledgeable in speaker building. I have used his philosophy when it comes to cabinet making and xover construction, and can vouch for quality of the outcome. You're right though, Rop. People have to decide for themselves where they want to spend their money. OK.........I'll get off my soapbox now!


----------



## Vper

I ordered the xovers for the Audax's from Madisound on Friday. They told me they would build them on Monday, and I'd have them on Tuesday.


I didn't plan on going wild on this things! I just planned buying the speakers so I'd have them before they stopped making them.


Oh well...










All I need now is a few connector cups... man...


----------



## jsalk

Calabs -


You weren't totally off base. I recall reading a few reports about six months ago that several people had problems with leads breaking on Eagle sand cast resistors from Madisound. I don't think it was a huge problem, but there were several people who commented.


On the other hand, I had leads break off on AudioCap Theta caps before and they are not at all inexpensive.


- Jim


----------



## Vper

Going over construction techniques/instructions, once you have these cabinets fully built and finished, you only get into them thru the speaker holes, correct? Everything is glued, caulked, and or liquid nailed together.


I know that you have to dry fit, and test the components before final assembly to make sure everything works as it should.


There isn't any reason to "gasket" a panel on to get into them at a later date is there?


----------



## BigguyZ

Most build all but one side. Then they finish the inside (caulk, PVA, Foam, crossover), then then glue the final piece on. For my fronts and surrounds, the baffle was the last piece. For the Center, it will be the top that is glued last.


----------



## Vper

Thanks BigguyZ


Double the thickness on the front and the back of the center and left and right channels?


----------



## timle

The baffle was the last piece on all my speakers. Each baffle was 2 pieces of 3/4 glued together. This gives plenty of room to flush mount the drivers. Make sure not to change the internal volume when adjusting the thickness of walls.


My typical construction was:


Cut all panels

Test fit all panels (no glue)

Glue and Clamp the 2 front baffles pieces together to make one piece

Glue and Clamp the other five sides together

Sand the 5 sided box

Cut the terminal cup cutout and port if ported

Solder wire to crossover for each driver and input

Mount foam and crossover

Cut driver holes in baffle

Clamp and glue on baffle

Sand baffle

Round over baffle

Finish cabinet (vaneer, vinyl, whatever you choose)

Wire and mount terminal cup

Wire and mount drivers

COMPLETE! WOOHOO!


BTW My 2 new rears are done and now my system is 7.1 and sounds great .


----------



## Vper

timle,


you just doubled the front baffle, not the back? The reason I ask is that in some of the past posts, it looks like some doubled both.


Thanks


----------



## Rop

On my fronts I doubled up both baffle and back, and plan to do the same for the center when I get around to it. That was at the advise of a few others doing the same. Might be overkill, but it's cheap and easy to do. It also makes these things heavy as h%ll and very solid!


-Rob-


----------



## Calabs

Is anyone else adding additional baffling along the side walls, or am I the only crazy one in the bunch?!?!


----------



## Vper

3/4 mdf is pretty heavy stuff to start with, then double it...


I don't know if my RPTV will hold the center up. I think I read somewhere that it weighed in at over 50 lbs.


I just might have to bolt a shelf to the wall for it.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Calabs_
> *Is anyone else adding additional baffling along the side walls, or am I the only crazy one in the bunch?!?!*



As far as I know, you are the only one to double up the side walls.


It can't hurt, till you try to lift them














and then it will only be your back that hurts.


Joe L.


----------



## BigguyZ




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by J. L._
> *As far as I know, you are the only one to double up the side walls.
> 
> 
> It can't hurt, till you try to lift them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and then it will only be your back that hurts.
> 
> 
> Joe L.*



Didn't JSalk further back say that changing the width of the speaker changes the something about the diffraction, and thus the baffle step compensation for the crossover would no longer be appropriate for the cabinet? OR something like that? Meaning, while depth and height shouldn't affect the sound too much, the width will?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I doubled the front baffles and I think I also doubled the rear (it's been two years) but definitely not the sides. I built MDF stands for all of mine and I weighed the center mounted to it's stand and it weighs 100+ lbs. I can't remember how much more, but because of it's bulk and the weight, I can barely lift it. MDF is heavy stuff!


----------



## Vper

Guess double is it.


Well, I am going to double the front and maybe the backs. But the internal volume and the outside dimensions will remain the same.


I'll just add to the outside of the original size of the cabinets. This will be just be the center, and the left and right.


By adding this internal bracing like here http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...er-9-2001.html 

the internal volume will decrease a little.


Thanks for the help folks.


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *Guess double is it.
> 
> 
> Well, I am going to double the front and maybe the backs. But the internal volume and the outside dimensions will remain the same.
> 
> 
> I'll just add to the outside of the original size of the cabinets. This will be just be the center, and the left and right.
> 
> 
> By adding this internal bracing like here http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...er-9-2001.html
> 
> the internal volume will decrease a little.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help folks.*



Vper - Actually no...........When I put those extra braces in, I compensated by making the cabinet a wee bit deeper. Those braces don't take up much volume and they are are just a 1" square. There was a major difference in the "subjective knuckle wrapping tone" before and after the brace installation. The two extra braces (I didn't double up on the side walls) couple the side walls with the midrange enclosure. With a cabinet of this size, I thought is was prudent to add the extra "wood". YMMV!


----------



## Vper

Clabs


That's good to know. I don't want to change the sound of the speaker in anyway.


How much deeper did you make it?


BTW, I didn't realize that was you from the article...


----------



## Calabs

I really can't remember, as I wrote that article about 3 years ago. The article may mention it. If not, it's easy to figure out. If the braces are 1" all the way around, just measure the cu. in. they take up, then add that in depth to the cabinet. I "THINK it came out to less than an inch, IIRC.

Ralph


----------



## Vper

I'll do that. Thanks again.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Arrgh! As our new totally dedicated HT nears completition, I have discovered a horrible miscalculation. That of course is about the size of my beloved Audax speakers. Specifically, the surrounds are just too large to conceal in columns. The columns would have to be 12"x12" which is too obtrusive with my row of four HT recliners. Our ceiling is almost 9' tall but there is a soffit that extends out 24" into the room on both sides. From the floor to the bottom of the soffit is a little under 8' and without a column to hide the speakers, they are still too low. They would be approx 12-18" from the back of the seating row and there is only a 24" space between the end of the seats and the wall for an aisle. In a dark room, anyone over 5'5" will hit their head on the speaker as they head to the first row. The rear speakers will be OK in columns.


My solutions:

1. Sink the speakers into the wall about 4" and then build columns that are 6" deep. Based on the front row of seating, I still think that is too obtrusive.


2. Sink the speakers and have no columns which modifies the overall room design but eliminates the possibility of bumped coconuts in the dark.


3. The most drastic modification is to buy, not build different surround speakers. I simply want my room to be done and I don't have the time to build new speakers. Besides it's thirty something outside, the sky is cloudy and the forecast said something about snow. I can't bear to go out into the cold to build more speakers. I think the front speakers are most important as far as matching goes. I've even read somewhere that if using dipolar speakers, you can have mismatched speakers. What do you guys think?


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


Interesting problem.


Since you stated that even if only protruding 6 inches, the columns would be too close I doubt if any commercial speaker would fit the space you have allocated without someone hitting their head.


I would go with a column that is as shallow as possible to keep the design of the theater you intended. Perhaps something as shallow as 1 or 2 inches deep (protrusion into the room).


Then, since the surrounds will be hidden I would make boxes roughly the same internal cubic-footage as the surrounds, but that are wider/longer to fit in your columns and into the walls. It sounds as if you might have 6 inches of depth to work with. (4 within the wall and possibly 2 more in the column.) Biggest factor will be the depth you need for the driver basket assembly.


Then, transfer your drivers and crossovers to their new shallower, hidden in column homes, sit back, and watch a movie. As you said, the surrounds are nowhere near as critical as the center/left/right.


You can trim out the columns to hide everything and visually, the columns will match those in the rear of the room.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Joe,

I've decided to sink them into the walls. I have sort of a room-in-a-room design on the sides. One side has a 26" space that creates an alley between the studed interior wall and a concrete wall. This space runs the full 26' length of the HT. The wall studs are 2x6 and I can easily cut out a hole, build a shelf and place my speaker there. Then, on the HT side, build my columns 4-6" deep. The columns will still be 12" wide and that combined with the 16" space between the wall studs should give me enough room to turn or tilt my surrounds. My HT seating is 12-ft wide in a 14' wide room. My second row is only going to have 2-3 seats instead of 4.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys, the PE 500w amp is on sale for $197 until 5pm today.


----------



## BigguyZ

I saw that. Mighty tempting, but I have kinda been set on getting that servo sub Calebs did a review on. I like the idea of a refined sub. Not that you can't build one with the PE amp, but I still like the idea of a fairly simple kit (I'll still build the enclusure).


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I know there was some discussion about the Audax frequency response, but I don't know if it was ever determined. Our new HT is going to be finished in a few days and our HT chairs are giant (144" wide). The room is 14' wide. All surrounds and rear channel speakers were to be placed in columns. The position of the surround column was too close to the aisle and seating. Now, I've decided to buy some dipole/bipole speakers and eliminate the side columns. I still want to use my Audax rear speakers and columns. I just want to be sure the freq response is close. Timbre should not matter too much in the surrounds as compared to the front speakers. I just want to be sure the rear speakers and the new surrounds work together.


----------



## moonhawk

Here's my first pics of my Northcreek Ikemo surround and rear speakers, and my first attempt at posting pics to AVS Forum...hope this works...










These are ready for one final coat of wipe on Poly (Watco) and have a shellac sanding sealer base coat(s).


The tops are solid Cherry, so I could radius the top and bottom (front to back) edges.


The sides are pre-laminated cherry veneer MDF, with a strip of solid cherry at the back, again so I could round the rear edges. The backs are the same MDF laminate, with an Apple Ply inner wall, similar to Baltic Birch, but all maple with no voids.


The front in 1 1/4 inch hard maple, with an inner of the same Apple Ply.


I changed George Short's dimensions slightly to allow rabbetting the joints, and dadoing the internal brace, but kept all internal dimensions the same.


This was his lowest price model at the time I bought them--nearly two years ago!--but I think he has a smaller speaker out now. This same kit is also available with upgraded tweeter and crossover components...I'll probably build the MTM center and MTM main channels in the upgraded version, but I'll wait and hear how these puppies sound.


First I have two of his Poseidon Subwoofer Kits to build.


Right now these guys are on their sides with the mixture of soft glue and drywall mud he recommends drying out...Used for damping...Hope to get the final finish coat on tomorrow, and install components Sunday...We'll see.


I'll post a closer up photo if this one works...


----------



## moonhawk

Wow!...it worked.


How cool is that?....










Here's one more shot...a little closer in.


----------



## Rop

Moonhawk, they look gorgious!! Beautiful!

Jim will have to watch out for the competition now...










Where do you get pre-laminated cherry veneer MDF? Didn't even know that existed. Sounds like a great idea! Especially as I saw two bubbles in my cherry veneer today on the one Audax front I have finished (as I was putting on the final coat of wax, going over 4 coats of Tung oil). That one was done with the yellow-glue-hot-iron method. No luck with that for me, so I'll be trying water-based contact cement for the other front.


Thanks for the pictures! They'll be an inspiration for my future projects...


-Rob-


----------



## moonhawk

Rob


Thanks for the kind words...I definitely showed the "good" side of those boxes. I made more than my share of bonehead mistakes, and had to carefully use filler and stain to touch up.


I got the Cherry veneered MDF from Lumber Products in Albuquerque...they make it in different woods as well, I'm pretty sure.


They are a regional franchise in the west, but the number I have for their corporate offices is 1-800-926-7103. If that doesn't work-it may not be current- post or PM me on Monday and I will get you a current number. They should be able to tell you the actual supplier, who could help you locate a dealer near you.


A word of caution...you won't have the luxury of doing all your cutting and shaping and gluing and clamping BEFORE veneer...So you have to be extremely careful not to damage it.


I found that to be quite a challenge...


----------



## Jeff Hovis

moonhawk,

Very nice! Were those cabinets Jim Salk inspired? I'm really liking the look of the front baffles done in a different wood. I have a set of Veritas to build sometime and I may try something different with the baffle.


----------



## jsalk

moonhawk -


Nice job. And don't worry about the mistakes. The difference between and professional and someone just beginning is the ability to hide mistakes. You speakers look like you're well on your way!


- Jim


----------



## moonhawk

Thanks, Jeff...


No, I started those nearly two years ago, before I found this thread or had ever heard of Jim, then got sidetracked by a little thing called life..I just dislike working with MDF, though the sides are veneered MDF, and like natural wood a lot. Don't know how much it affects the sound, though considering the thickness of the baffle and the fact that they are joined to 3/4 inch ply, I think they should be fine, especially for effects channels.


Maybe later I'll try an MDF baffle--George Short does with all his Northcreek speakers--and play with ebonizing it. I have a recent issue of Fine Woodworking magazine with an article on ebonizing, with multiple finish coats and hints of color highlights layered in with the black...might look really cool. I plan to finish out the subs, mains, and centers to match these though.


I've been in the painting business for a long time, and I love working with wood and playing with new finishes...Using the Shellac sanding sealer as an undercoat helped me protect the cherry veneer on the sides during construction, and the wipe on poly was really a pleasure to use.


Here's a little trick I used with the Poly: pour out what you want to use in a plastic container, and heat it in a bath of hot water, to warm it up a bit...Seems to help it go on really smooth and dry nicely. I applied it with a clean cotton rag. Sure beat the hassle of breaking out one of my sprayers.


I haven't got to assembling them yet, but hope to get them finished this week and broken in, so I can report back soon.


----------



## Vper

Experts;


I have a question about hooking up the crossovers and speakers for the center channel.


Do I take the input from the speaker cup, and connect it to a crossover, then it's speaker, from that speaker to the next xover, then it's speaker, then to the next xover, and finally to it's speaker? Series? 1 connection to the speaker cup.


Or, just hook the input to each xover and then from the xover to each speaker. 3 connections to the speaker cup.


Oh... almost forgot.


How should I connect the wires to the xover boards. I purchased the prebuilt ones from Madisound. There are no terminals on them. Can I bolt or solder connections to them? Which would be better?


I have the cabinet all built and glued together, except for the top. Need to get the foam and padding for insulation.


----------



## Rop

Vper, either way would work fine: You can run separate wires from the terminal cup to each x-over, or run two wires to the input of the first x-over, from there to the second etc. There's no electrical difference. Personally I find it easier (in terms of keeping track of what's input and what's output) to run wires from each x-over to the terminal cup.


Just to make sure: One does *NOT* connect the output of the x-over to the input of the next x-over. All the x-over inputs are hooked up in parallel.


I've soldered all my connections. Personally I think the amount of vibration inside a speaker favors soldering. I know others use connectors and they probably work just fine for many, many years as well.


-Rob-


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Vper,

Use the 2nd option that you listed. What you are describing in the 1st scenario is connecting your xovers and speakers in series. For simplicity, run a +/- wire from the terminal/binding post to the xover connection points as indicated on the schematic. Then run the +/- from the xover to it's speaker only (use the schematic to find the point to solder your wires from the terminals as well as the xover out to the speakers).


For connecting to the Mad xover boards, I used solder. All my other speakers I have assembled the xovers and I used pegboard. You can see them here:
http://europa70.tripod.com/mbow1002.htm 



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Vper_
> *Experts;
> 
> 
> I have a question about hooking up the crossovers and speakers for the center channel.
> 
> 
> Do I take the input from the speaker cup, and connect it to a crossover, then it's speaker, from that speaker to the next xover, then it's speaker, then to the next xover, and finally to it's speaker? Series? 1 connection to the speaker cup.
> 
> 
> Or, just hook the input to each xover and then from the xover to each speaker. 3 connections to the speaker cup.
> 
> 
> Oh... almost forgot.
> 
> 
> How should I connect the wires to the xover boards. I purchased the prebuilt ones from Madisound. There are no terminals on them. Can I bolt or solder connections to them? Which would be better?
> 
> 
> I have the cabinet all built and glued together, except for the top. Need to get the foam and padding for insulation.*


----------



## Vper

Jeff,


Thanks.


That's what I thought, not the series connection, but a seperate connection for each xover, and from the xover to that xover's speaker. So there are 3 connections to the speaker cup.


----------



## jsalk

Vper -


There is not question - soldering is best. Other joints may fail in time - soldering will be much more robust.


- Jim


----------



## Vper

jsalk'


Good point, since everything is glued shut! It might be difficult to repair at a later date.


Thanks


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey guys, are these Ascend speakers using Audax drivers? http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...c/cmt340c.html 

It looks like the ones in my speakers and it's an aerogel.


----------



## J. L.

Jeff,


The ad describes them using proprietary 6.5 inch long throw Aerogel cone woofers w/phase plug, non-resonant polymer chassis, rubber surround, shielded (Look close and you will see the "phase plugs" instead of the more usual "dust-cap" we have in our drivers.)


I'll bet you they are very similar to our woofers otherwise and made by Audax.


Obviously, a different tweeter.


I'll also bet the crossover frequency is a bit higher than our center channel since they don't have a midrange driver. Looks like they added baffle-step-compensation whereas I don't think our crossover does.


Overall, the response doesn't look too bad. Center only weighs 26 lbs, so it cannot be the same construction. Never heard of them, or listened to them, but from what little I know, might be a good value for the non DIY'er.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

I guess I should have paid more attention to what I was reading. It was the aerogel description and the gray color that got me.


----------



## fields_g

It's time to come out of the shadows and make myself known. I've been reading this thread for a little less than a month now, and tonight I just tested my first Audax surround speaker. I had a rather questionable receiver for the testing, but its magic still shined. I have to thank all of you who have contributed their suggestions, tricks, and heartaches for others to learn from.


I don't know if it is the 86 pages of posts or the info not actually there, but I have not found info the acoustic foam in the surround speakers. I know that "the directions" state certain surfaces in the fronts and the center should be covered, but I didn't see anything about the surround speakers. What did you guys do?


Off topic a bit, but since I am in the market for a receiver, Anyone have a better suggestion than the Kenwood VR-8070 for $300?


Parts Express sent a complementary speaker mounting kit with their drivers. Any opinions about using the putty-like sealant they provide vs. rubber stripping?


This has been a real neat project for me. I asked my grandfather to help me out with this project. He seemed interested at first and as it has progressed, he has become more and more excited. Now it is hard to convince him to wait till I come over before continuing.


We have had all the parts cut for a 7 speaker system for a couple weeks now. I finished the crossover construction on New Years Day. We just need to punch some holes for speakers and do some gluing and finishing. Since we are initially painting the exteriors, we should probably be done with the remaining speakers within 2 weeks.


Thanks Guys!


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Welcome to the group. The foam that I used is eggcrate mattress foam. I bought mine at WalMart and Target. PE also has foam. The surrounds are sealed and don't really need foam. What is best for them is something like the vinyl damping material or even heavy roofing felt (30lb). The ported speakers definitely benefit from the foam and the center must have the poly stuffing in the sub-enclosure. BTW, I used vinyl damping and some foam in the surrounds (not on all walls). I also used weather strip from HD.


Hope that helps.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by fields_g_
> *Parts Express sent a complementary speaker mounting kit with their drivers. Any opinions about using the putty-like sealant they provide vs. rubber stripping?*



Use something like foam rubber weatherstripping instead of the free "putty" that Parts Express gives you. Because that stuff they give you for free is more like a butyl tape, and it can end up almost like gluing the drivers in. And if you ever need to remove them for some reason later on it can be difficult to do so.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by fields_g_
> *
> 
> I don't know if it is the 86 pages of posts or the info not actually there, but I have not found info the acoustic foam in the surround speakers. I know that "the directions" state certain surfaces in the fronts and the center should be covered, but I didn't see anything about the surround speakers. What did you guys do?
> 
> 
> Thanks Guys!*



Here are a few photos of my Surround channel enclosures while still under construction.


I did put foam on the walls of the Surround enclosures and also filled them with the poly-stuffing as well as described in the plans. The cabinets are not tight-packed, but do have about half a bag of poly-fill each in addition to the egg-crate foam.


Joe L.

*Prior to aniline dye and finish*









*In the process of being dyed*


----------



## Vper

fields_g,


I purchased a Pioneer VSX-912K reciever about a year ago. It falls in your price range. It's packed with features, like 7.1 and self calibration with it's own microphone to set your speaker levels.

http://audioholics.audioreview.com/A...6_2718crx.aspx 


I just love it.


----------



## BizarroTerl

I posted this over in HT Builder which was probably the wrong place -


I'm seriously looking at a pair (or 2) of Alpha LS line array speakers Alpha LS Line Array . These speakers have a much more uniform sound field that typical point source speakers. Jim Griffin's white paper describes line array theory here. 


Is anyone using this type of speaker in a HT environment? What considerations would there be with room treatments?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Here ya go: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmiyake/ 

This is the system built by jmiyake, who has posted on this thread back near the beginning (pg 3 or 4).



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BizarroTerl_
> *I posted this over in HT Builder which was probably the wrong place -
> 
> 
> I'm seriously looking at a pair (or 2) of Alpha LS line array speakers Alpha LS Line Array . These speakers have a much more uniform sound field that typical point source speakers. Jim Griffin's white paper describes line array theory here.
> 
> 
> Is anyone using this type of speaker in a HT environment? What considerations would there be with room treatments?*


----------



## Vper

Progress update,


I soldered the wires to the xovers, and temp mounted the speakers to the box.


Does anyone have a picture of how the xovers are wired? ie where are the inputs and outputs? I think I've got the tweeter and midrange right, but I'm not sure about the woofers. I bought the prebuilt xovers from Madisound, and they came with a schematic, as well as a drawing, but the xovers don't look like the drawing. So I'm not 100% sure that I've soldered every thing correctly.


It sounded fine, but.... Don't want to burn out anything.


Any help would be great.


----------



## Vper

Nevermind,


I emailed Madisound where I got them from, and Terry emailed me back a connection drawing. I didn't get one when they shipped.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Vper,

Glad you found what you needed. Now, this is for all us diyers. Check out this thread. You won't find this in any of my speakers:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=492844


----------



## CharleyW

I have heard the GR Research Alpha LS's.


Over the last 30 years (when I started serious listening) I have heard a lot of speakers. But never anything as good as the LS's.


Heard with both 8 watt (5687 PP) and 120 watt (6550 PPP) amps.


Unbelievable imaging, with a seamless transition from woofer to tweeter.


----------



## BizarroTerl




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by CharleyW_
> *I have heard the GR Research Alpha LS's.
> 
> 
> Over the last 30 years (when I started serious listening) I have heard a lot of speakers. But never anything as good as the LS's.
> 
> 
> Heard with both 8 watt (5687 PP) and 120 watt (6550 PPP) amps.
> 
> 
> Unbelievable imaging, with a seamless transition from woofer to tweeter.*



That's what I've heard from everyone that's heard them. Not a single negative review.


The only "negative" I've come up with is that there doesn't appear to be many people using line arrays in a HT. All the room treatment info I've read is directed to point source speakers. I'm pretty much sold on the LS. My main goal is to plan out a proper HT that's designed to cater to their design.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I saw a set of GR Line arrays being built by Brian Bunge at RAD (Rutledge Audio Design) in Rutledge, GA. They looked like a pretty complex cabinet but their work at RAD was 1st class.


----------



## Duaner

I just finished a DIY IB sub install, and now I've got the bug... I have been researching speaker designs the past few days, and have decided that at some point I would like to build 3 MTMs for the front soundstage in my HT. However, aside from what style of speaker I would like to build, I am at a complete loss. As a machinist with some cad and solid modeling experience, I can handle the enclosures... but everything else is a TFM.


I don't really know where to start or even what questions I should be asking. I haven't really seen any Diy kits that really stand out to me, but I know nothing of how to select drivers or set them up with the proper crossovers.


I do know this:


I am going to budget myself up to $500.00 for drivers and XOs. Less would be better.


I will be using these speakers primarily for HT, but also music to some degree... (75%-25%... I know, I want my cake and eat it too.)


A tried and true design would be great, as I would love to leave the engineering to the qualified.


Designing my own crossovers and enclosures would be more rewarding... BUT I would have to keep the cost at a minimum... speaker design software and equipment does not seem to be cheap... nor easy to learn, as a basic knowledge of electronics is required.


As a reference, I have a pair of polk fx300i surrounds that sound pretty good to me... I would like my diy speakers to sound as good or better.


I am in no big rush. I want to take my time and do this right so I can enjoy the fruits of my labor for years to come.


Thanks

Duane


----------



## Dastardly

DuaneR-


Some good places to start:

http://www.speakerbuilder.net 
http://www.partsexpress.com 
http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl 
http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...homeaudio.html 
http://www.madisound.com 


I am sure others can add more.


I caught the bug building a subwoofer, too. But, my space for new speakers hasn't been built, yet.


Don


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duaner,

For HT in an MTM setup, you'll have to spend quite a bit more than $500 to beat the Audax set. You can build the L/C/R for about $500...maybe a little more depending on the veneer you choose. Of course I'm partial, I built 7 for our system and have built a few more for friends. I'm now using the front three with four bipoles in back. That's only because our HT plan called for columns and our 14' wide HT and 12' wide rows of seating wouldn't tolerate 12"D columns on the sides.


There are also some choices at PE and speakerbuilder.net as already mentioned that will fall well w/in that range. You may also be able to build some of the GR Research speakers in that range.


For about $100 more, you can build the Adire Audio Kit LCC and Kit 281. These are all pretty large speakers, so be warned. The Audax and Adire center channels are huge. Also, from memory, the GR-Rsch is also pretty big.


----------



## Duaner

Dastardly


Thanks for the links... I have been to those sites over and over again. I guess I'm just not sure what I want/need, as I haven't really seen too much at those sites that sparked my interest, except maybe the Audax... I was thinking about the Dayton III's for a while, but I don't think they are what I am after.


Jeff



> Quote:
> For HT in an MTM setup, you'll have to spend quite a bit more than $500 to beat the Audax set. You can build the L/C/R for about $500...maybe a little more depending on the veneer you choose.



Just so you know, I am planning on a budget of $500.00 for just the drivers and crossovers... I already have most of the materials to build the enclosures.


Is the Audax set really that good? It seems to have a great following here at AVS, but it's scary to buy components that you haven't actually heard yet... at the same time it's probably alot safer than trying to pretend your an engineer and design your own.




> Quote:
> The Audax and Adire center channels are huge



The main speakers I have now are giant. Old 3-way floorstanding heaps with 12" woofers in them. More than anything I want new speakers for aesthetics. I have successfully hidden an Infinite Baffle in the basement to save space, and would like to have a more modern looking set of speakers up front on some nice stands. But of course, they must also sound terrific.



I will look more closely at the audax speakers... Are there any spec sheets anywhere on these kits? I was unable to locate one. I would like some frequency response numbers for them. Not that it matters that much... my current speakers sound like there's a blanket hanging over the front of them, and the amp in my reciever sounds kind of ******... like a goose.


Will these speakers sound good for music? (2 channel with sub) When I listen to music, I like the front channels to be doing 99% of the work, and just have the sub turned up enough to flavor it a bit, so it's kind of important that these will be good down to probably 50 or 60hz.


I am hoping a good set of speakers will tide me over till I can replace the amp, and maybe get some EQ for the subwoofers.


Thanks again for the help... I am hoping that I will be ready to start this project for my birthday in april. My wife and I are remodeling our home, and I am going to do a few things myself that I originally had planned to hire out... you can see where I am going with this.







Anyways, the money I will save in labor putting up 35' of oak stair railing will more than finance my little speaker project, which I will deem to be "for the house" anyways.


----------



## Rop

Hi Duane,

Here is a link that has all the Audax docs in one place, including a shopping list for drivers and crossover components.


-Rob-


----------



## Dastardly




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *Dastardly
> 
> 
> Thanks for the links... I have been to those sites over and over again. I guess I'm just not sure what I want/need, as I haven't really seen too much at those sites that sparked my interest, except maybe the Audax... I was thinking about the Dayton III's for a while, but I don't think they are what I am after.
> *



I wish I had my space done, so I would have built my speakers, and could be more helpful. There is a lot of experience with the Audax on this thread (i have read nearly all of it), so I won't comment on those other than to say they are on my short list. I you were to go with one of the Dayton based sets (DIII, Triune, or Dayton Home Theater ( http://home.hawaii.rr.com/sanaka/AudioDIY/DHT/DHT.html )) I would take a close look at the UniCC Center Channel which is a 3way like the Audax center channel.


----------



## Duaner

Rop,


Thanks for the link. I have read this entire thread over the last few days, and couldn't remember where I saw that info. It pretty much answers all my questions.


the more and more I read about this audax setup, the better I feel about spending the cash on it... I am still going to take some time and do some more research, but audax will probably end up being what I build. from the sounds of it, I won't be dissappointed.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duaner,

The most complex part of the Audax construction is the center channel cabinet and xovers. The cabinet has a subenclosure that houses the mid and tweeter. It also has two ports. The first time I tried mine, it just didn't sound right and my little Energy Take1 center sounded better. I listened to each driver and felt the cones for vibration. I discovered that the midrange wasn't working. I removed the xover and found that I improperly connected it. After that, it really opened up on vocals.


You can tell that the Audax speakers aren't small. They have a really big, full sound and with my HK7200, they are pretty neutral. I don't think they are bright at all...unless my hearing is bad.


I've also built a set of MBO1s that are very good for classical, female vocals and jazz. However, they aren't good for loud RnR music. My next project is some big floor standing butt-kicking speakers through which I can blast some 2-channel music.


----------



## Duaner

Jeff... would you recommend that I purchase the crossovers already built from madisound? I have never worked with electronics before, but with a diagram it seems like I should be able to handle it... but maybe not. let me know what your take on it is. The enclosures don't scare me... if all else fails I could take the MDF to work and use the cnc mills to cut the front baffles... I will consider getting some assistance with the veneer though.


You are right... these are some pretty decent sized speakers. Especially the center. It's actually large enough that it poses a placement problem for me. My television is only about 4 inches wide at the top... I don't believe I will be balancing a 12" deep speaker on it. The stand that the tv sets on has a divider right in the center of it, which would prevent placing the center channel beneath the tv as well... hmmm... i might end up building a new tv stand as well??


The R and L speakers are significantly smaller than the speakers I use now... A pair of 10 year old cerwin vega vs-120's. These are obviously not audiophile speakers by any stretch of the imagination... but they are pretty fun to listen to. Great for rock and roll and partys... seemingly idestructable, and sensitive out the wazoo... 97db 1w/1m. They definitely have some shortcomings though, especially for HT.


Considering the rave reviews everyone has given the audax kit, I am sure that I will like the way they sound. I have not read one negative review yet... at least from a price point perspective. I suppose that if I didn't like them I might be able to sell them for what I have invested in them, providing I do a nice job on the enclosures and crossovers.


What is the best way to buy this kit? Purchase the parts individually from PE or a kit from madisound? I haven't tallied everything up yet from PE, but I bet you save a bit by building your own XO's?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duaner,

Purchasing from Mad is the easiest way. I haven't compared pricing lately. Last year, PE had a sale on Audax and I bought the components to build a couple of surrounds. The price was much better during the sale. With the Mad xovers, all you do is solder the wires from the binding posts or terminal cup to the appropriate points on the board. Then, solder the wires from the board to the drivers. I used the Mad xovers on my first set and it was easy after I got a couple of questions answered right here. Since then, I've built my xovers on pegboard. I think Mad will fax you the xover schematic and the schematic to their pre-made xover boards.


This is a link to my MBOW1 site and there are pictures of the xovers that I built:
http://europa70.tripod.com/mbow1001.htm 


If you build your center channel like most of us have, it will weigh 50lbs. I attached mine to a stand and it now weighs around 70lbs and well over 100lbs when the stand is filled with sand. It's definitely not one you would want on top of your TV.


----------



## Rop

A few comments on (Audax) price, crossovers, and veneering:


The prices in the shopping list spreadsheet that I listed are what I paid, and of course now have changed. I purchased at the time PE had their Audax sale. Should be easy to download and update with current pricing though.


If you have no trouble reading crossover schematics I wouldn't be afraid of building your own. As electronics go, crossovers are about the easiest thing to make and more mechanical then electrical (heavy inductors, huge capacitors). Like Jeff I built mine on pegboard, using lots of "Goop" brand glue to fix components in place and make them vibration proof. Then again, if Madisound has them pre-build for less money why bother...


As I reported here earlier, I have had trouble using the yellow-glue & hot iron method of veneering. Just can't get it to adhere well (and stay stuck). Meanwhile, during the past week, I've had a chance to try Wilsonart water based contact glue (as Jim suggested). This works very well. Of course time will have to tell if it stays on, but initial adherence is very good and a whole lot better than hot glue at its best for me. Having explored the "outer perimeter" of its use (another way of saying I had to deal with my screw-ups), a few pointers in using this stuff: It works better when put on relatively thin, one layer on the paper-backed veneer and one layer on the MDF is all it takes. I use a small disposable foam roller (cleans up easily with water, so you can actually re-use the same roller over and over). Also, don't wait too long before gluing the parts together. The glue should be dry (becomes shiny when dry, while milky white when it goes on), but only just so. Wait too long and it won't stick (not a big deal since it's easy to roll on another layer of glue and do it again). Takes about 30 minutes from rolling on to being dry enough to glue. Related to that, don't use this stuff when the temperature is in the 50's (takes a long time to dry and won't stick well). With 72 degrees here yesterday it worked great. Also, Jim's tip of using masking tape at the edge of the veneer you put on to keep glue from getting on the veneer works great! After veneering I first use a flush trim bit on my router to trim the veneer, then put masking tape around the edge, rough-trim that with a box cutter, finally sand both veneer edge and tape so the veneer is completely flush (this also sands the tape flush).


-Rob-


----------



## Calabs

The overall success for this type of veneering is contingent on the amount of time you let the yellow glue dry. If it is dry for too long of a time, the glue begins to cure and harden, and EXTREME heat is needed to melt it. What I have found to work quite well for me is to put on a thin layer of yellow glue on both the veneer and the cabinet. As soon as the last bit of water is evaporated (no longer milky), apply the iron covered with aluminum foil. Very easy this way with little pressure needed. I've had my A652s for about 8 years now, and no delamination. My Titan sub and Audax center were also veneered this way, and so far no problems. Here are a couple of links that describe my experience with this type of veneering.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...html#finishing 

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...html#finishing 

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...er-9-2001.html 


Good luck!

Ralph


----------



## Rop

Hi Ralph,


First a question for you: Could you post a larger picture of the stands you made? They sure look good! Stands are my next item on the list.


Before my trials with the yellow-glue-iron method I did indeed read your story (and thank you for taking the time to write it up so detailed, it's very helpful to beginners like me!). I suspect that this method works great for some and not for others. Maybe it depends on the particular brand of yellow glue? Maybe it's the exact temperature of the iron? I've gone through a number of trials with various thicknesses for the glue coat, various drying times, and various iron settings. I really desperatly wanted it to work, since at the time I believed there were no good alternatives short of a vacuum press. No matter what I tried, at best I get it to stick so-so, where I have to be very careful in handling edges or I peel the veneer right off, at worst it forms bubbles during subsequent handling (as in putting the tung oil and wax on).


For me, I find contact cement much more consistent, and frankly quite easy to work with. The hard part was to put the single very large sheet of veneer that goes over the left side, front, and right side of the speaker (with rounded-over corners). As you note you only get one chance to get it right, so it takes some planning in advance on the strategy to get it positioned correctly, and tacked on. Strategically placed sheets of wax paper and a plan on where to start do the trick.


Note that I'm using water based contact cement (the brand is Wilsonart, it's sold by Home Depot). It does not have a number of the disadvantages you list. Cleans up easy, doesn't smell, and a single coat on MDF and veneer is all it takes. All I'm saying is that I believe water based contact cement really is a viable alternative that's not too hard to do, even for people like me who have not used it before.


-Rob-


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rop_
> *Hi Ralph,
> 
> 
> First a question for you: Could you post a larger picture of the stands you made? They sure look good! Stands are my next item on the list.
> 
> 
> Before my trials with the yellow-glue-iron method I did indeed read your story (and thank you for taking the time to write it up so detailed, it's very helpful to beginners like me!). I suspect that this method works great for some and not for others. Maybe it depends on the particular brand of yellow glue? Maybe it's the exact temperature of the iron? I've gone through a number of trials with various thicknesses for the glue coat, various drying times, and various iron settings. I really desperatly wanted it to work, since at the time I believed there were no good alternatives short of a vacuum press. No matter what I tried, at best I get it to stick so-so, where I have to be very careful in handling edges or I peel the veneer right off, at worst it forms bubbles during subsequent handling (as in putting the tung oil and wax on).
> 
> 
> For me, I find contact cement much more consistent, and frankly quite easy to work with. The hard part was to put the single very large sheet of veneer that goes over the left side, front, and right side of the speaker (with rounded-over corners). As you note you only get one chance to get it right, so it takes some planning in advance on the strategy to get it positioned correctly, and tacked on. Strategically placed sheets of wax paper and a plan on where to start do the trick.
> 
> 
> Note that I'm using water based contact cement (the brand is Wilsonart, it's sold by Home Depot). It does not have a number of the disadvantages you list. Cleans up easy, doesn't smell, and a single coat on MDF and veneer is all it takes. All I'm saying is that I believe water based contact cement really is a viable alternative that's not too hard to do, even for people like me who have not used it before.
> 
> 
> -Rob-*



Hey Rob,

Regarding the bubbling of the veneer using the yellow glue, I found that to be a problem initially on the A652 project. I suspected that I didn't let the glue cure enough before moving forward with the staining/coating. When I did the sub and center channel, I waited a few days after the veneering was complete, and I had no issues with delamination. That's great that you were able to make the water based CC work. Perhaps it's the grade that makes the difference, Wilsonart is a very good brand.


As a side note, I believe I had my iron set to the steam setting (setting 4-5 out of a possible 6). I pressed fairly hard in one spot, counted to 10, then slid to the next spot, working in such a way to eliminate the formation of bubbles.


I will try to take some additional photos of my stands. I trust you read the description on how to make. Pretty simple, but really nice and easy to match whatever stain your fronts are. I'm not sure how to post pix here, so maybe I'll send you a PM so I can get your email, if that's OK with you.


Ralph


----------



## Griff

Hey All,


Glad to see this thread is still alive! I hope someone is archiving this. I have built the L&R mains, and the center. My problem is this: After a few too many adult beverages, a friend and me got a little too aggressive with the volume knob, (I think we hit 12!!). We were listening to music only through the L&R mains. Afterwards I noticed that I had to recal my speaker levels, and turn the center and surrounds down a significant amount. I am getting ready to open the mains up, and am wondering what should I look for in my crossover that I have probably fried? The speakers still play, but the sound is scratchy soundiing is the best way I can describe it. How do I know if it's the x-over or the drivers? I'm suspecting the resistors, but don't really know how to check. Is there a way to measure, or will it be obvious I allowed the magic smoke to escape?


Any help or suggestions woulkd be appreciated. I'm afraid if I go to PE they won't have the same parts I used when I built these, and will have to re-do all the x-overs because they will no longer match.


Thanx!!


Griff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Griff,

The L/R xovers aren't too complex and one could be put together quickly. Also, it's a good idea to go ahead and purchase some replacement drivers. These are not going to be available to us in the diy market much longer. I think that Mad and PE have all they are going to get.


----------



## Duaner

Jeff:


Oh no. I had no idea that audax kits would soon be unavailable, and I am not ready to spend the dough right now. This is rather dissappointing news, as by the time I am ready to buy, the kits may very well be sold out. Ah well... such is life.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duaner,

Audax decided sometime last year or in 2003 that they were not going to supply the diy market any longer. They are only going to supply commercial companies. I've seen the aerogel drivers in Ascend speakers. They have a phase plug, but they definitely look like Audax drivers and they refer to them as aerogel. I don't know how many other commercial speakers use Audax drivers. I'm sure there are lots in Europe. I just assume it's their Frenchness










Sorry we didn't think to mention that to you before. I had a wicked thought about buying a bunch of Audax drivers and sitting on them.


----------



## Griff

Jeff,


I have the parts and pieces to make another pair of the mains. I am going to use the mains as surrounds. I have a 17'X25" area in the basement I am making into a theater room. My biggest concern is PE won't have the same crossover parts that I used when I built these.


Does anyone have any suggestions as to what to look for when I get these apart? In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't get time to finish the cabinets yet! MDF is cheap, so no biggy there. Besides, there's a few changes I want to make to the way I constructed the last set.


Thanx!


Griff


----------



## Duaner

Jeff:


Don't be sorry. It's just as well anyways. I spent about 1400 bucks in december on a pair of polk surrounds and an infinite baffle sub setup... responsibility dictates that I should probably focus my fiscal assets on more important things for a while. I am sure that there will be other DIY kits in the future that will parallel the Audax kit. It might be a while, but I am sure. Thanks again.


Duane


----------



## usabrian




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rop_
> *Hi Ralph,
> 
> 
> Before my trials with the yellow-glue-iron method I did indeed read your story (and thank you for taking the time to write it up so detailed, it's very helpful to beginners like me!). I suspect that this method works great for some and not for others. Maybe it depends on the particular brand of yellow glue? Maybe it's the exact temperature of the iron? I've gone through a number of trials with various thicknesses for the glue coat, various drying times, and various iron settings. I really desperatly wanted it to work, since at the time I believed there were no good alternatives short of a vacuum press. No matter what I tried, at best I get it to stick so-so, where I have to be very careful in handling edges or I peel the veneer right off, at worst it forms bubbles during subsequent handling (as in putting the tung oil and wax on).
> 
> 
> -Rob-*



I find your comments perplexing because I have found the iron on method nearly foolproof. And it was really the only way to do radiuses. Are you sure you are using the correct type of veneer? I use only quality raw wood veneer, not paper backed.


Brian


P.S: photos of my Adire 281's here: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/usaisb...2b.jpg&.src=ph


----------



## phaselocd




> Quote:
> Jeff Hovis wrote :
> *Audax decided sometime last year or in 2003 that they were not going to supply the diy market any longer. They are only going to supply commercial companies.*



OK then, What do future builders get then that match or improve on the Audax kit. ???? I really wan't to build my own speakers, but I'm simply not in the position right now to do it, I think I'm still a year away.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

The Audax components are still available from PE and Mad. People like Jim Salk know more about production lots and large purchase quantities. It could be that those two companies have bought enough to last quite a while. I have a few spares on hand just in case. There is always the PE Dayton brand, GR Rsch and other kits from Zalytron and Madisound. There are others out there like Selah Audio and Adire.


----------



## Rop




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by usabrian_
> *I find your comments perplexing because I have found the iron on method nearly foolproof. And it was really the only way to do radiuses. Are you sure you are using the correct type of veneer? I use only quality raw wood veneer, not paper backed.
> 
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> P.S: photos of my Adire 281's here: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/usaisb...2b.jpg&.src=ph *



Hi Brian,


Wow! Beautiful speaker! I love the contrasting wood!


My trials were all with 10 mil paper backed veneer, it came from Woodworker's Supply . My understanding from reading this thread is that's what everyone else used (at least the people that used the yellow-glue-hot-iron method). In fact, my understanding was that raw wood veneer is very hard to work with. I'm glad to hear that's not the case and may give that a try with a future project! By the way, I had no problem doing the 1/2" round-over radiuses using water based contact cement and the afore mentioned paper backed veneer. Goes on like a charm!


-Rob-


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I've used nothing but paper backed veneer from oakwoodveneer.com If your cabinets are put together tightly and without any panel overhang, you shouldn't have any problems. My MBOW1s were put together too quickly and the veneer edges have come loose. However, none of my other speakers show any signs of the veneer coming loose.


----------



## Ron_C

I have finished my front 2 Audax speakers and am now testing them out. I have a question before I can decide if they are working correctly. I built the crossovers myself, so I am a little nervous that I made them correctly. On my front MTM's, the top and bottom 6.5" woofers viberate differently. Since I have not built or had MTM's before, I do not know if this is normal. They sound good, but don't know of both woofers should be viberating at the same rate or not. One(bottom in my case) seems louder?? and puts out much more low-end(vibrates a lot) and the top driver vibrates much less drastically. I just want to verify if this is normal or not. Thanks for all the help.


Ron


----------



## Ron_C

Ok, I did some further testing and the top drivers are not even working although the bottom drivers are. Could anyone point me in a direction on how to debug this? Here is a picture of the crossover of the mid-woofers on the front speakers.


The 2 resistors in series is an 8 and 10 ohm to create an 18 ohm resistor. The 2 resistors in parallel are 2 - 20 ohm to create a 10 ohm at 24 watts. Does anything look out of place. The speaker that is hooked up to the top set of + and - in this picture is the speaker that works. The bottom set of + and - does not.


Thanks for the help.


Ron


----------



## Ron_C

Note to everyone....Make sure you have the corrected plans!!!


I spent the bulk of tonight trying to figure out why only one woofer was working. As I was about to call it a night, I thought..hey wonder if I have the old, incorrect plans. Logged on here and looked at the corrected plans. Sure enough, I some how got a copy of the incorrect plans that had the incorrect woofer diagram for the front speakers. I snipped the wire the was connecing L2 and R2/R3 and bang...they are working now. Just wish I would have thought of this 6 hours ago....










Tomorrow I will be testing out my center channel. If all goes well, I might have mine done by the end of this week end.


Thanks again,

Ron


----------



## J. L.

Ron,


Glad you figured out what was wrong. I can imagine that original incorrect drawing published by Audax caused many others to go through the same pain as you.


I seem to remember that the center channel schematic / pictorial illustration also had a discrepancy that was corrected in the revised PDF plans. I think the pictorial was correct, but the schematic was incorrect. (Just the opposite of the L/R channel, where the pictorial was incorrect, but the schematic was correct) *Please verify you have the updated version and have wired the drivers correctly.*


In the case of the center channel, the woofers are supposed to be wired out-of-phase to the other drivers. In other words, the minus (-) terminal on the input cup is wired to the plus(+) terminal of one of the woofers.


Although it would not prevent the woofers from operating if mis-wired, it would cause a very poor frequency response with a massive dip in the response near the crossover frequency if you wired them incorrectly.


Just a heads up. If you look anything like me you will not want to pull out any more hair than necessary during your tests and after all your work, you want them to work perfectly.










Joe L.


----------



## Ron_C

J.L.

Thanks for the additional information. I went back and looked at the center channel woofer diagram and I do see what you are talking about. The diagram shows the GND is also the + for one of the woofers and then IN ends up being the - for the other woofer. I wired it just as the diagram stated. + from the cup to the IN and - from the cup to the GND. So I think I am ok there.


Thanks,

Ron


----------



## J. L.

Ron,


Just to be sure, attached is the correct center channel woofer schematic.


Note that woofer polarity is reversed.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Ron,

Glad you got the correct schematic. The first set I built came from Mad and the xovers were already built. When I built more, JL came to the rescue and provided the correct plans.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys,

I'm veneering the 4 columns in our HT and I'm using paper backed veneer as usual from Oakwood Veneer. My first set of speakers were veneered with their paper backed stuff. I waited probably a week before I stained them. I used water based pre stain and water based stain. On the speakers I built in Jan, 2003 or 2004 (can't remember) I also used the yellow glue method. However, I probably let them sit for a day before I oiled them. Yes, I said oiled them. I used Watco Danish Oil and they were bea-u-ti-ful! However, I noticed that the front, top edge of each speaker is loose. Today, I took a small sample and oiled it. After 15-mins, the oil had soaked throught the paper backing. I think it is very critical that you let the glue cure for at least 48-hrs or longer before you try to stain or oil them. As for my MBOW1s and their beautiful ribbon striped Mahogany, I'm going to use a toothpick to spread glue under those two edges. I'll heat them with a hot iron and after that I'll probably add some wipe-on poly. That should help keep the veneer in place. I'm ready to hear from Johnla now about the atrocities of polyurethane


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


Johnla may not prefer poly, but I have always had very good luck with it. It reuiqres many coats to fill the grain. I start with 6 - 10 coats of regular gloss poly, sand it down flat to about 400 - 500 grit and follow up with a couple very thin coats of satin wipe-on poly.


- Jim


----------



## Johnla

What can I say, I'm partial to the look of a oiled finish and I have never had a separation problem. But I myself have used one of the polymerized Tung Oils (Formby's http://www.formbys.com/products/tung_oil.cfm ), which is almost like varnish. And about every six months or so I give them a "wipe over" with some lemon oil to clean them.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Johnla,

I may just give that stuff a try.


----------



## Johnla

I really like the stuff, and it's definitely very close to being a varnish. Because you can even "build it up" with multiple coats to fill wood grain if you want, and you can buy it in either a gloss or satin finish. I even refinished 3 interior doors in my house, and also a veneered coffee table using the Formby's gloss Tung Oil. And even a very large pair of Klipsch LaScalas, using the satin finish.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Johnla,

I need to finish the Cherry veneer on my HT columns. I just got the veneer on tonight, so I'm waiting until Monday or even next weekend. How is this stuff for use indoors? My HT room is dedicated and pretty tight. I can open the doors and put a fan in to suck out the fumes if necessary.


----------



## Johnla

The fumes are not really that bad, even in that respect it's like some varnishes are. It's certainly not as bad as some the solvent based polyurethanes are, but it's not nowhere near being odor free either. As it does have solvents in it, and it is combustible. So you still may need some extra ventilation if the room is on the small side. And also like varnish and polyurethanes, it can make your hands very sticky if you get sloppy with it and get it on them.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Thanks Johnla, the room is 26x14.5, so it isn't small. It's just sealed very well to keep sound in and probably fumes. I'll put my box fan in the doorway or possibly in one of the windows in the next room over. I have almost an entire can of Danish Oil, so I still may use it. It really does bring out the color of the wood with one application.


----------



## moonhawk

My cabinetmaker, before I built my shop, used Waterlox tung oil on and in all my kitchen cabinets...


All my glasses smelled like tung oil for over a year when I would take one out of those cabinets.


I like products that dry faster...


That wipe on poly is nice...part oil, but enough hardeners to dry like a varnish, and the odors don't linger.


I'd be careful doing something with as much surface area as your columns in a closed room.


I'm not familiar with your particular product, but you don't want to be smelling the stuff for a long time.


I was a painting contractor for some years, and any kind of oil finish, while giving wonderful results, can take a long time to quit putting out fumes.


YMMV


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by moonhawk_
> *My cabinetmaker, before I built my shop, used Waterlox tung oil on and in all my kitchen cabinets...
> 
> 
> All my glasses smelled like tung oil for over a year when I would take one out of those cabinets.
> 
> 
> I like products that dry faster...*



That may be something to do with just that brand/type, because the Formby's stuff is dry in 12 to 24 hours. There are about 3 or 4 versions/ways of making/processing Tung Oil for wood finishing. One is just raw Tung Oil with no dryers at all added to it which also never fully drys, then there is with added dryers, and there is also the polymerized versions. Which are the ones that dry the fastest and the hardest. Like I said, I also finished a pair of Klipsch LaScala's both inside and out with the Formby's. And they are a VERY large pair speakers, (35.5"x 23.75"x 24.5") and I had no problems with any lingering smell from the Formby's Tung Oil finish other than the first day or so.


----------



## moonhawk

Thanks, Johnla...good to know...


----------



## philiprst

I used Formby's tung oil on all my Audax HT speakers and it produced very nice results with a cherry veneer (there are some pics I posted earlier in this thread). All oil/varnish finishes contain volatile organics and you would be wise to apply them in a well ventilated area and use a mask suitable for organic solvents. The smell lingered for about a week or so. If you finish the inside of a cabinet then the smell will linger longer because of the lack of ventilation, but this is not really an issue with speakers. Personally I find wipe on poly to be even more objectionable but that is more personal taste.


If you use Formby's be aware that it comes in high and low gloss (satin) versions. If you want a satin finish then you may be better off doing a few coats with the high gloss and finishing with the low gloss. Multiple applications of satin only tends to look opaque.


Bear in mind that you will need to apply many thin coats to get a nice finish. I applied 7 coats total.


Good luck


Philip


----------



## mh7519

not quite to the finishing stage yet, but I'm building a pair of the Dayton IIIs from Wayne J's speakerbuilder.net and need some soldering advice...


What's the best/easiest way to attach the 14AWG speaker wire to my crossover (component leads appear to be 18-20awg) My 20w iron seems to do a great job heating the speaker wire, but the leads never get hot enough to melt the solder. The speaker wire just sinks all the heat away from the joint. Any tips?


I considered adding screws as terminals, solder the component leads to the screw and then terminate the speaker wire at the screws (or binding posts, preferrably)


Thanks for any help.


----------



## philiprst

You probably need a 40W soldering iron; an inexpensive one is probably not much more than a set of binding posts and it will be worthwhile to save you the hassle of dealing with a dry joint (which always seem to magically appear only after the entire speaker is assembled).


----------



## moonhawk

According to George Short of Northcreek music, the best connection is a solid mechanical one, then solder over it to prevent oxidation...


----------



## philiprst

You probably need a 40W soldering iron; an inexpensive one is probably not much more than a set of binding posts and it will be worthwhile to save you the hassle of dealing with a dry joint (which always seem to magically appear only after the entire speaker is assembled).


----------



## technimac

Here's a "heads up" that PE has this driver on a DOTW sale for $24 until Monday. It's a good chance for anyone who wants to build, or add to, an Audax HT system.

Cheers, Bruce


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by technimac_
> *Here's a "heads up" that PE has this driver on a DOTW sale for $24 until Monday. It's a good chance for anyone who wants to build, or add to, an Audax HT system.*



Ya beat me to it, because I just came here now to post the same thing...


----------



## Dastardly




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by moonhawk_
> *According to George Short of Northcreek music, the best connection is a solid mechanical one, then solder over it to prevent oxidation...*



I want to second this point because engineers who should know better make this mistake. Solder is for making reliable electrical connections, it should not be relied on for mechanical robustness. Conversely, mechanical connection pieces should not be part of an electrical circuit i.e. do not put washers between a wire and the metal you want the electricity to flow to.


----------



## Duaner

Against my better judgement, I am thinking of going ahead and taking advantage of the PE deal on Audax drivers right now, and just putting them in storage for a while until I can afford to buy the rest of the items for the kit. Is it safe to assume that all the components in this audax system BESIDES the drivers themselves are basic run of the mill type things that can be purchased at any time, and that as long as I have schematics of the XOs and boxes I can build these down the road at a later date?



One more question. Since these drivers are not going to be available forever, I was wondering if there is a way to add some safeguards to this design to keep from burning up drivers? My CV's have slow-blow fuses for each speaker and self resetting ptc breakers on the tweeters... which I am sure have saved them from destruction a number of times. Could something like this be added to the audax system to help ensure years of trouble free use? If so, how do you go about figuring out where to fuse them at?


thanks,

duane


----------



## philiprst

Duaner,


All the other components are indeed run of the mill types and you can get them several different places. When I bought my drivers Zalytron was selling them at $25 a pop so you might check them out before placing your PE order. Having said that, I doubt you will get a better deal than PEs current price.


The crossover components can be bought at several places. I believe that Zalytron and Madisound will sell you the components as a package. The standard Madisound package has some components that are lesser "quality" than Zalytron or what you could buy from PE, but I believe they have an upgrade. For example, although the design suggests high quality poly film caps Madisound substitutes Mylar caps in the less important parts of the crossovers (bypass caps and some parts in the woofer circuits). I believe that the Zalytron set uses poly film throughout. I have no idea what difference this makes.


Personally I used poly film caps for the most part bypassed with small value poly foil caps. I used poly foil caps for the series caps in the tweeter crossovers. This was an inexpensive upgrade. In substituting the coils you need to be careful to use coils with the correct resistance.


Btw, if you do order your drivers by phone from PE they will be able to tell you how many they have remaining in stock which might help everyone considering this design.


Good luck...


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by philiprst_
> *
> 
> All the other components are indeed run of the mill types and you can get them several different places. When I bought my drivers Zalytron was selling them at $25 a pop so you might check them out before placing your PE order. Having said that, I doubt you will get a better deal than PEs current price.*



Zalytron still shows them as being $25 each, but they also show that they only have 32 of them in stock. And they also only show having 12 in stock, of the 5.25" HP130Z0, that is also needed for building the center channel.


So my advice is, if anyone one is on the fence about buying a set of these Audax drivers for any future use. Is that they best get off the fence pretty darn soon, and make up their mind to buy them.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duaner,

I agree with the others. Buy the drivers where you can get the best deal. Don't forget that the oxver components can also be combined either parallel or in series to reach a desired spec.


I recently purchased a spare 5.25" midrange. I have several spare tweeters and 6.5 woofs already. I should be able to make these last for many years.


----------



## philiprst

Funny, those were the in stock numbers when I bought my drivers from Zalytron seven months ago and I remember back then people saying that they were going to be out of stock soon. I have a feeling that Zalytron's numbers are not updated very often. Again, a quick call to PE will enable you to find out how many they have remaining in stock (I remember calling once about a discontinued vifa driver and they told me they had over 1000 in stock).


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by philiprst_
> *(I remember calling once about a discontinued vifa driver and they told me they had over 1000 in stock).*



But that don't mean much, once there is no longer any left.

Because sooner or later, anything that's been discontinued also means there are not going to be any around left for anyone to sell.


Just look at all the DOD and discontinued items that PE has sold over just the last year, where now they no longer have any of them left at all to sell.


----------



## Duaner

Thanks guys. I went ahead and ordered the drivers today... sorry but I ordered them over the internet and I have no idea how many they have left. I had the PE shopping cart page open and just sitting there on the computer all morning while I was sitting on the fence about the whole idea... my wife got tired of hearing me whine so she snuck up and hit the "buy now" button just to shut me up. She's great.


For now I am just going to sit on these drivers while I save a few pennies for the rest of the components... When I go to assemble the XOs I am sure I will need some help from you all.


Has any one given any thought to what I asked before about putting some circuit protection in these speakers? I would rather do that than have to buy extra drivers.


----------



## Duaner

has anyone compiled a list of the PE part numbers for the crossover components? Does PE have such a list themselves? Where do I find it? I would like to have it now and tuck it away with the drivers when they come...


by the way, how many watts are these audax kits rated at?


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *by the way, how many watts are these audax kits rated at?*



Interesting question. I don't know if I ever saw a "max power" rating for the Audax HT set.


I can offer this paragraph from the original plans from the Audax site:


> Quote:
> Realistic reproduction of movie sound tracks can require short term SPLs of 105-110dB. All of the individual speakers in the Audax home theater system can produce 105dB within their frequency range in typical size rooms. Their combined output capability easily exceeds 110dB. Sensitivity for the speakers in this system falls in the range of 87-88dB SPL/1w/1m. This translates to minimum amplifier power requirements of 100W per channel.



I am currently powering my Audax with an HK 7200 Receiver that is conservatively rated at 100 watts per channel. In reality, it has been measured at over 140 watts per channel into 8 ohms. Prior to getting this receiver, I powered the set with about 30 watts per channel. The only reason I replaced the receiver was because it was a Dolby-pro-logic only and would not decode Dolby digital or DTS, not because it was not loud enough. In that respect, I'm not sure I agree that you must have a min of 100 watts per channel.


I would guess that any "reasonable" power would be fine as long as you do not turn the volume up so loud that everything distorts and is unbearable.


It has been said that more tweeters have been damaged from too little power and amplifier clipping than too much power.


What kind of power levels were you considering? More than 100 watts per channel? More than 150? 200? 300?


I too am curiious, what power levels are other builders who have followed this thread using?


Joe L.


----------



## Duaner

joe, nothing grand... 100 watts per channel, but probably not 100 clean watts as its just a sony reciever... still interested in some insurance on these though... resetting ptc... fuse...etc? any ideas?


----------



## Johnla

Adding fusing or circuit breakers on speakers, in no way guarantees that you won't damage them. About the only thing you can do with them is to be over cautious, by setting them to "blow/trigger" at a ridiculous low setting. And by doing that, it possibly will also cause you to blow the fuses or trigger the breaker on a somewhat frequent basis under normal use.


And J. L. is definitely right.

In that you can easily damage a speaker with too little power, a lot easier than you can with too much clean power.


----------



## philiprst

As has been noted earlier, these are *relatively* inefficient speakers. I power them with an Outlaw 7100 which outputs 100W per channel. A lot depends on how you cross over the center/fronts/surrounds; my guess is that the 105-110dB peaks have a lot of support from the subwoofer (I have a 500W sub amplifier in my system).


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I use the same amp as JL which is quite powerful. At 4ohms, these make around 200wpc x7 and as JL said 140 or so at 8. Many times, I've gotten out my SPL meter and measured 100db during a movie. I used the meter to set up the system at 70-75db. That was done with the volume set to

-15. I normally watch movies at -20 to -25 on the volume and I still see the SPL over 70 and 80db, which is plenty loud in our room. That probably doesn't mean squat, but my wife and kids like the volume lower than I...which as you guys know, is the law.


----------



## Rop




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *has anyone compiled a list of the PE part numbers for the crossover components? Does PE have such a list themselves? Where do I find it? I would like to have it now and tuck it away with the drivers when they come...
> *



I posted a link to mine a few pages back. To save you the trouble of looking for it, here it is again .


This is part of a number of links to all the Audax HT docs, found here. .


Hope this helps!


Now you guys have done it! I'm thinking of ordering spare drivers, just in case they run out (and I blow one or more)...


-Rob-


----------



## Duaner

Thanks everybody. There certainly is alot of support on this thread.


johnla:

The more I think about it, the more I agree with what you say regarding fuses etc. If I recall, when I first got my CV's I was blowing fuses left and right, so I stepped up a notch higher in fuses and haven't blown one in 10 years, and no speaker damage as far as I can hear.



I am sure that I will notice a difference in volume levels once I have the Audax in place. My CV's are rated at 97db 1w1m and I believe they are rated at 6 ohms. I really have to boost the levels of the other speakers to make them match the volume coming out of the fronts. For movies running standard compression I have to set the center and rear levels all the way up, while overall max volume is attained at about 9 or 10 o'clock on the dial. I have experimented with other less sensitive speakers and this is not the case as I can usually run the volume knob up past 12 oclock to obtain the same volume levels.


Rob:

Thanks for the info... I am sure I have seen these posts before, but with all the info running through my head it is sometimes difficult to remember where it all came from.


I would like to order a couple of extra drivers myself, but I shouldn't have really spent the money on these drivers in the first place... From the sounds of it, these speakers once assembled are pretty stout... besides, it is fairly easy to tell when your amp has reached it's limit, and as long as I am careful, I should not have any problems.



Thanks again everybody. I have a few projects to take care of right now, but I hope it won't be too long before I get a chance to start making sawdust. I am hopeful that once I get them built I will like the way they sound... still a little nervous about that, but considering the speakers I am using for mains right now, and all the great things I have heard about the audax setup, I probably won't be dissappointed.


Duane


----------



## Johnla

As long as you never drive your amp into clipping, you really should have no need to worry about damaging them. I'd guess that the Audax system could easily safely handle clean 200-300 watt amps or even more under normal use. My Klipsch LaScala's are rated for only 100watts max continuous and 400watts peak. And I have driven them for over 20+ years now with a Carver M1.5t amp which can output up to 600wpc short term (a few seconds) and 350wpc long term, and they have yet to miss a beat. And trust me, there was probably more than a few times that the amp did indeed hit it's full 600wpc output driving those Klipsch in my younger days....


----------



## Duaner

johnla, just wondering how you would rate your audax kit with other speakers you have owned in your lifetime. From an overall performance perspective and from a price point perspective. THanks


Duane


----------



## Johnla

I don't have the Audax kit, I built a different set using Stryke Audio (now Acoustic Elegance) drivers. Mine is similar to the setup listed below, except that I also went with the MTM's for the surrounds also.

http://plaza.ufl.edu/cdoggy81/DIYstryke.html 



And now I'm looking into probably building a full 7.1 set of MTM's using the new 7" Dayton (Parts Express) RS180 drivers, and either the Morel MDT 20 or a SEAS 27TDFC tweeters.


In fact I already bought 14 of the RS180 drivers, back when PE had them as the DOD back in mid December.


----------



## Duaner

sorry, did not realize you had a different set. I know people have good things to say about this setup... I guess I will find out sooner or later.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys,

The last two movies I've watched, I noticed some rattling/vibrating coming from what I thought was the center channel of my Audax system. It was present during vocal passages and I assumed it was the midrange. I had ordered an extra just recently to go with my extra tweeters and woofers. I have a false screen wall that hides the speakers so I put off looking until I couldn't bear that sound any longer. Tonight, my wife and I watched Open Water. That's one scary movie and I HIGHLY recommend it. I squeezed between the right speaker and then the cylinder sub. I tilted the center back and was semi-shocked to see the the cone of the midrange driver split open. I assume this either happened during our recent move or during the construction phase of the new HT.


The center had a grille over it that I had made and I had not looked at the drivers until tonight. The HT has been under construction since November and as I was completing the false wall, I put the speakers in place. I can only assume the damage occured during that phase or when we moved. As I said, I just removed the grille. I so glad I had an extra midrange and I'm going to order another tonight!


----------



## philiprst

Duaner,


To answer your question; the Audax HT system is very good value for money when you just look at the cost of the components and cabinet making supplies. I spent around $600 total for five speakers and I am sure that there is no commercial system that will beat it at that price. Of course, when doing such a comparison I am ignoring the time spent in actually building the speakers which was considerable. It's harder to make value judgements when you figure in the time and effort except to say that, in my case, it was a mostly enjoyable experience so I don't really count it in dollars.


The Audax system was designed, from the ground up, as an integrated HT system and it works very well. The center channel especially has been carefully designed to optimize dispersion: it's not just a regular speaker flipped on its side. For movie viewing, I can't imagine wanting anything better. Used as a music system, either surround or stereo, then it's limitations become more apparent. The mids and high end are not as transparent as I would like which probably reflects the performance of the tweeter which is a relatively inexpensive driver. I will admit that I am spolied by having Avalon speakers in my main stereo music system which use high end Eton drivers, exxpensive crossover components and exceptionally well built cabinets. Again, this doesn't take away from the excellent performance of the Audax system for HT.


Before I built the Audax system I auditioned several sets of HT speakers in the low to mid price range, such as Paradigm which is a well respected builder. I have no doubt that my system is better than anything I heard under $2000 for a 5 speaker system. If you look at the relative quality of the drivers and cabinet construction this is not too surprising.


I think that you will be very happy with your speakers whenever you get around to building them. I will also say that there is something very satisfying about sitting in your HT and knowing that the speakers were a product of your hard work. For most DIY speaker builders, it is not about money. It's about the satisfaction and pride of building something for yourself and your family.


Philip


----------



## Rob Kramer




> Quote:
> And now I'm looking into probably building a full 7.1 set of MTM's using the new 7" Dayton (Parts Express) RS180 drivers, and either the Morel MDT 20 or a SEAS 27TDFC tweeters



Are you looking at Jon Marsh's MTM design (RS180 + 27TDFC)?


I would like to try it, but I missed out on the DOTD, and backorders will probably account for all the RS' through March or April.


Instead, I doing the CAOW1s, and will probably be converting them to the MTM versions later on.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rob Kramer_
> *Are you looking at Jon Marsh's MTM design (RS180 + 27TDFC)?
> 
> 
> I would like to try it, but I missed out on the DOTD, and backorders will probably account for all the RS' through March or April.*



That's one that I'm looking at, but I'm probably gonna let the dust settle a bit before I actually commit to one and start building it though. Because with all the RS180's that were sold as a result of that DOTD, there should be a bunch on nice designs showing up in the next month or so. And probably some additional ones for using the RS225's, that were added on as the DOTD when the supply of RS180,s ran out. The backorders are all on the way right now, and my last 4 from that order are shown by UPS to be arriving here tomorrow.


BTW: They do show the RS180 as being in stock and available for ordering now. But of course you can not get them at the DOTD price they had back then.


----------



## Rob Kramer

Waiting for the designs to pan seems like a good Idea. I am also looking forward to designs using both the RS woofers AND RS tweeters (not yet released). I think Ill jump on that wagon when it gets here.


In the mean time, however, Im sure Ill be pretty happy with Dennis' design. He is well respected.


----------



## Duaner




> Quote:
> I think that you will be very happy with your speakers whenever you get around to building them. I will also say that there is something very satisfying about sitting in your HT and knowing that the speakers were a product of your hard work. For most DIY speaker builders, it is not about money. It's about the satisfaction and pride of building something for yourself and your family.



Philip:

I definitely agree with your take on DIY... time is not an issue. The destination is much more satisfying when you enjoy the journey.


My hope is that in comparison to my Old cerwin vega's, the audax setup will sound much better. Considering what I have read here in this thread, I should not be disappointed. Of course, most people probably think that just about anything sounds better than CV's... which probably has some truth to it. I am positively sure the audax will be better for HT, but music is what I wonder about. The cv's are great for partys and extremely loud rock and roll, especially when you have no subwoofer... but now that I have a really good sounding IB sub setup, the vegas just don't seem quite as useful. I have been setting the reciever to "small" speaker settings all the way around anyways, so the mighty bass of the cerwins doesn't even get utilized anymore. Time for them to go...


Thanks for the input... it is nice to have reassurance from others on this kind of stuff... buying something without the benefit of experimenting with it a bit.


duane


----------



## Duaner

Jeff:


Sorry about your midrange... makes me even more sorry that I didn't order any extra drivers. I hope I don't regret that later, but I need to keep the cost at a minimum right now.


duane


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duane,

It was a freak thing. I'm sure I did it recently when I was building the screen wall that is in front of my speakers. It's obvious that something fell into the front of the speaker and cracked the mid driver. After watching a couple movies, it just got worse. As far as extras, I'd say that an extra tweeter is probably the most important thing to have on hand.


Good luck on your build.


----------



## khonas

Hi everyone,


Great (and long) thread going here! It inspired me to start building home theater speakers from the Audax plan.


I am in the process of building the center and have assembled the speaker far enough to take my first listen. It sounds decent but wonder if it is performing to it's potential. The midrange and tweeter have excellent presence and are handling most of the sound. It seems that both woofers are under-utilized as I hear far less sound out of them compared to the midrange and tweeter. I have tried a variety of movie soundtracks and HDTV but it seems like the woofers are not putting out much sound at all.


Is this normal or do I have some kind of problem such as a crossover error or bad connection somewhere? I double checked the polarity on the woofers and I believe they are connected to the crossover correctly. Truthfully, I am not hearing a huge difference between this new speaker and my cheap Kenwood center (which does not sound horrible by any means). Maybe my expectations are too high after reading everyone's rave reviews of this speaker.


Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

Ken H


----------



## Randy Mathis

I have been reading this thread for a year now.


I am waiting for the weather to break before I try to build anything due to MDF dust not being desirable indoors.


I am thinking of starting with a sonosub tuned to 16 hz in a 11 cubic foot tube using an Ascendant Audio Atlas 15.


If I am successful with that I am looking around at different speaker designs. I had originally planned to try the Audax but it seems as though they will be gone by the time I take my shot at it.


I am currently thinking of these... http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...ario/index.htm ...without the rounded edges in a slightly modified enclosure, and I would use a third main standing upright instead of the center. I'm not a big fan of the center.


I would love to find something similar that I would not need to modify though.


----------



## Duaner

Audax drivers came in today. I was not going to even take them out of the box, but I thought I better and make sure nothing was damaged, and that they all worked. Get this, 2 out of the 6 6.5" drivers were busted... the magnet assembly fell right the heck off the basket assembly when I picked them up... glue wasn't good or something...


Right now I am kind of irritated. I have half a notion to send everything back and say the hell with it... seems like no matter what you buy, it's junk. Everything... junk.


I guess for 24 bucks what do you want right? I suppose I'll just send the 2 broken ones back and get two more. Makes me think I should order a couple spares though...


On a lighter note... the speakers sound very good... at least as far as I can tell from scabbing a couple wires on them and listening to them with no enclosures. They make my CVs sound like someone unplugged the tweeters and hung a big thick blanket over the remaining drivers. Should be great for movies when I get them built.



wish me luck


duane


----------



## Duaner

Those guys at PE are great. They are sending me out two new drivers before I even send the damaged ones back. The rep I talked to said that Audax must have had a bad batch of drivers leave the plant as they have been having quite a few returns lately for this very reason.


Makes me kind of nervous about the other drivers, so I am going to run a bead of 2-ton epoxy around the seam between the basket and the magnet assembly just in case. That should help.


Duane


----------



## philiprst

Khonas,


I would suspect that the crossover is incorrectly wired or you have a bad connection somewhere. Take out the woofer crossover and check it very carefully against the circuit diagram. I would suggest you get an inexpensive multimeter and check the resistance between various points in the circuit. Make sure they are what you expect from the diagram. Good luck...


Philip


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duane,

The exact same thing happend to me when I bought some from PE a couple of years ago (busted cone and the magnet fell off). They sent me a new one and told me to keep the broken one. The reason this happens is PE must buy these things in huge bulk quantities. They aren't in their original Audax boxes and they are packed face-to-face and wrapped in cardboard. My original set was bought from Madisound and they were in their original individual Audax boxes. Every driver was in a box like these:
http://europa70.tripod.com/audax_center004.htm This is from my original center channel build site.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *Those guys at PE are great. They are sending me out two new drivers before I even send the damaged ones back.*



Yep. PE has some of the best , if not the best. Customer service that I have ever dealt with.


----------



## Duaner

Jeff:

I tried to get them to let me keep the broken drivers... I told them I would send them back to them so that they could verify that they are broken, and even pay to have them reshipped to me, and the lady told me no.


oh well.


Duane


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duane,

I threw mine away after the new one arrived. BTW, I keep forgetting to tell you that I like your sig. That is my favorite of the Wyatt Earp movies. I don't know how accurately Val Kilmer played the part of Doc Holiday but I sure did like it.


----------



## Duaner

Jeff,

In my opinion, that movie has some of the best acting val kilmer has ever done. I also like the "you're daisy if ya do" line.


I think I could actually fix broken the drivers. They work very well well when you hold the magnet and basket together... I think I could scrape the old glue off and reassemble the two pieces and have a couple good spare drivers. I sent PE an email in hopes that a letter will be given more serious consideration than a phone call... my guess is the verdict will not change, but you never know.



I think I am going to start the enclosures this weekend. I have stain and poly drying on the loft railing, so I will have some time to work on them. I am going to laminate 2 pieces of 3/4 mdf together for the front baffles, and take them to work to cut the holes in them. I have drawn solid models of the enclosures with Solid Works... now all I have to do is load the info into the CNC and hit "go."


Hey, what kind of glue is best for puttiing these things together? Regular titebond wood glue, or something like liquid nails? Can I skip the clamping process if I use brads to fasten the panels together? I realize I would have to fill the nail heads before I veneer. I haven't really done any type of carpentry that requires gluing.


Thanks

Duane


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I used titebond 2 which I think is good for outdoor use. Mine will never be used outside and so the regular Titebond is just fine. Make sure you have lots of clamps to hold them while they dry.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *I am going to laminate 2 pieces of 3/4 mdf together for the front baffles, and take them to work to cut the holes in them. I have drawn solid models of the enclosures with Solid Works... now all I have to do is load the info into the CNC and hit "go."*




No fair using CNC equipment...... CHEATER!!!.......







.....











For glues, I myself use either TightbondII or a Polyurethane like Gorilla Glue. And I'd highly advise that you DO USE clamps. And to even still use clamps, even if you have a pneumatic brad nailer. And probably even more so with polyurethane glues, because they expand when they cure.


----------



## Duaner

guess I'm off to get some clamps...


Johnla:

I agree... it is cheating...







but since I don't have a router, and actually have never used one... cnc seems be the way to go. And for a change, I will actually be having fun at work!


The solid model is very cool I must tell you. I drew all the different components of the speakers (including the drivers and port tubes) and mated them all together in a 3-d assembly drawing that you can manipulate in just about any way you can think of.


----------



## Duaner

Just a quick shot of the solid model


----------



## Duaner

one more quick shot of the inside:


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *Just a quick shot of the solid model*



Damn, now I'm jealous... I've been out-tooled by someone with access to a CNC setup......










And it makes the inner "Tim Allen" in me, wanna cry.....


----------



## khonas

This is a follow-up to my post a few days ago in regards to not being satified with my first listen of my newly-built Audax center.


Phillip,

Thanks for the response to my question. I did double-check my connections, etc. and everything was correct on the woofer crossover. However, after re-checking all the crossovers, I found I had C2 and L2 backwards on the midrange crossover (I followed the Audax pictorial diagram rather than the schematic when I put it together). I switched it this morning and gave another listen. It seemed to help.


Anyway, back to the topic of my Audax center listening experience.....


If you recall, my original question on my first post was something like "Is it normal for the woofers to not be nearly as present as the midrange and tweeter drivers?"


I educated myself this week on center channel speakers to have more basis on how a center channel is supposed to function in a HT setup....something that I was lacking in for sure!


Educational experience #1:


To help try to answer this question, I went to a local electronics/audio store that had some high-end speakers to give them a listen to see if they were functioning the same way as my center. I went into the store and told the salesman to take me to their best center channel. He proceeded to show me a KEF center that retailed for $1999.00! I listened to it carefully and critically and I have to say, it was nice but I did not hear much difference between it and my new Audax center. However, it may have been an unfair comparison since I didn't have my center there for a direct comparison. I especially listened to hear if the woofers were not as present as the midrange and tweeter. The woofers were functioning pretty much the same as with my center (not as present as the midrange and tweeter).....which made me feel better already!


Next, I asked to salesman to show me the next level down in center channels. He took me to another KEF center that retailed for $1199.00. Again, I listened critically and was less impressed (not surprising since it cost $800 less than the other KEF I listened to). The store had about 4 or 5 other centers (don't remember specific brands) in the same area going down from $1199 to $299. I had him put on each of them for a quick listen. Wow, was I surprised how awful some of them sounded! They ranged from hollow sounding, bright, strident, to in-your-face obnoxious! The $1999 KEF sounded the best, but who in their right mind would spend that much money on a center channel speaker. After this brief listening experience, my Audax center was already sounding better!










I went home and cranked up my home theater for another critical listen of my new center. I have to say I was much more impressed this time around.


Educational experience #2:


A couple HT buddies came over and brought their center channels so we could do a sound comparison. One of the guys had a 4-way switch so we could hook up all the speakers at the same time and change speakers using the switch. There were four centers:

1. smaller Polk audio center

2. my Kenwood center (part of a HTIB)

3. Klipsch center ($299 retail)

4. my new Audax center


We used Pirates of the Caribbean, Fantasia 2000 and Open Range for our test soundtracks.


Results: (disclaimer: based on my own opinion)

The Audax was clearly the winner. If I had to rank the speakers from best to worst based on sound quality, I would go Audax, Kenwood, Polk and finally the Klipsch. Compared to the others, the Audax had a rich, full-bodied sound that was very easy on the ears. It had just the right amount of presence and produced dialog with realism (as if the person was standing in front of you talking). The others had more of a bright, higher-pitched or hollow sound. They were all characteristically different in their own ways.....they all did the job in delivering dialog but none did nearly as well as the Audax.


Being a classically-trained musician, I put on Fantasia 2000 to see how the various centers would handle the soundtrack. The Audax center did not disappoint. It handled orchestral sounds with wonderful realism....it was like being in a top notch concert hall listening to the music live. The other centers fell very short here.


Both of my HT buddies also really liked to Audax center, though the owner of the Klipsch remained partial to his center. The other buddy is now looking into building a DIY center but thinks the Audax center is too large for his space.


Now to answer my original question about the woofer presence problem. During my initial first listen, I did not have a good basis of how a quality center channel works. My thought was that I have a pair of big 6 1/2 woofers that were not doing much. I expected even during dialog to have the woofers working as hard as the midrange and tweeter. Why would a person build such a large enclosure with ports if you weren't going to hear them more dominantly than what I was hearing? As all of you know, most dialog comes from the midrange and tweeter (Shamefully, I did not know this). I believe the purpose of the woofers is to give extra body/depth or support certain ranges of dialog. The woofers also provide depth to the entire HT sound when non-dialog signal is sent to the center. (Fantasia 2000 is a prime example of this).


After my center education this week, I have to say I am totally happy with my new Audax center. For grins, I hooked up my original center (Kenwood) for another final comparison, and I now hear a huge difference between the two centers.


Sorry for the long post, but I felt like I needed to give you an update on my center dilemma.


Ken H


----------



## Duaner

Khonas:

That was an excellent post. Your thoughts on center channels seem very thorough, and I am glad to hear the tale of another satisfied audax owner... makes me more confident about building mine. I am probably months away from actually having the front soundstage completed, and I can't hardly wait.


duane


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by khonas_
> *Sorry for the long post, but I felt like I needed to give you an update on my center dilemma.*




Hey don't be sorry! I for one thought it was very informative, and a great post.

And that it probably also answered a lot of questions that some people may have had, or even thought of asking about in regards to center channel speakers, but for one reason or another they never did.


----------



## Vper

Update:


I have completed my center and surrounds. Woo Hoo










I had to reset my receiver so the center and surrounds were large, not small, that way they would get the correct input, and then readjust all of the levels for each speaker.


Now for the listening test.


I've actually had the center finished for a couple of weeks. It's been connected and in place, but I didn't reprogram my receiver. Sounded ok, but not noticabally different in general. Some sounds (highs) came through differently, more pronounced (punch?). Voices are louder, clearer.


At first I was like khonas, hmmmm... no bass, or very little bass from the center. Disappointed. Hope the xover was hooked up right.


After connecting the surrounds and resetting the reciever, Wow! Tons of bass. Just like JL, things just rattled in the room. That never happened before! Lots of clear sounds, and more volume from the surrounds, or more presence, and more dialog from the center. I love it. And all in time for Scifi Friday!


After reading khonas's post, and setting up right I am quite pleased. Thanks khonas for your eval post!


Thanks to all for this thread. I never would thought of building a set of speakers. I would have gone out, eventually, and plunked down a huge chunk of change for some expensive brand and I probabally would'nt be happy with cause I spent all that money.


(edit for spelling, sheesh...)


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Randy,

I built a sonosub using a 15" Dayton. Here is the link:
http://europa70.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm 



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Randy Mathis_
> *I have been reading this thread for a year now.
> 
> 
> I am waiting for the weather to break before I try to build anything due to MDF dust not being desirable indoors.
> 
> 
> I am thinking of starting with a sonosub tuned to 16 hz in a 11 cubic foot tube using an Ascendant Audio Atlas 15.
> 
> 
> If I am successful with that I am looking around at different speaker designs. I had originally planned to try the Audax but it seems as though they will be gone by the time I take my shot at it.
> 
> 
> I am currently thinking of these... http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...ario/index.htm ...without the rounded edges in a slightly modified enclosure, and I would use a third main standing upright instead of the center. I'm not a big fan of the center.
> 
> 
> I would love to find something similar that I would not need to modify though.*


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Vper,

I have all my settings at small. I have almost the same subwoofer and the exact same HK7200 as JL. I haven't noticed any lack of bass. However, I do have the big subwoofer and I use the highly adjustable bass management system on the 7200.


Are you guys saying that the center sounds better if I set it as large? I'm definitely no expert, but I want dialog to be the main thing coming from my center channel. If that is a deep baritone voice, yes, I expect it to come through. For LFE, I rely on my subwoofer.


When I initially tried my center, I didn't like it at all. But, I soon realized that the midrange xover was connected wrong. When I fixed that, it was sooo much better and I was using a VERY good Energy center channel before.


----------



## Vper

Jeff,


The manual for my receiver says that anything over 6" inches should be set to large.


I have a Panasonic VSX-D912K with auto level setting. Auto MCACC (Multi-channel Acoustic Calibration)


Edit (Pioneer, not Panasonic)


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Vper,

Maybe that's the reason. I've never had a processor/amp/receiver that used that terminology. My previous Denon and the HK have both stated that speakers be set to small if you are using a subwoofer. Mine has a braod range of bass settings. Anyway, glad you got your sound the way you like it and that's the most important thing.


----------



## Vper

Thanks


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jeff Hovis_
> *Vper,
> 
> Maybe that's the reason. I've never had a processor/amp/receiver that used that terminology. My previous Denon and the HK have both stated that speakers be set to small if you are using a subwoofer. Mine has a broad range of bass settings. Anyway, glad you got your sound the way you like it and that's the most important thing.*



No, even most receivers and pre-pros that don't have any auto set-up/EQ features. Still usually say somewhere that any speakers that are using 6" drivers or bigger, is that they should normally be set to large even though you also use a subwoofer.


----------



## Vper




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *Just a quick shot of the solid model*



Duaner,


I did the same thing, but couldn't get any machine time ti have the pieces cut. I was going to have just the grills cut for each speaker. Darn the luck, real work kept getting in the way. It's just so inconvenient.










I used Solidworks also.


So instead of using the cnc machines to cut the grills, I used the pattern shop's equipment. Waaayyyy better than cutting at home.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by khonas_
> *I educated myself this week on center channel speakers to have more basis on how a center channel is supposed to function in a HT setup....something that I was lacking in for sure!
> 
> 
> snip...
> 
> 
> After my center education this week, I have to say I am totally happy with my new Audax center. For grins, I hooked up my original center (Kenwood) for another final comparison, and I now hear a huge difference between the two centers.
> 
> 
> Ken H*



Ken,


Great post. Glad you followed up and described your recent educational experiences.


I've got a quick question in return. What were you using to drive your new Audax Center channel? Since you described it as replacing the center from your HTIB, was it still the source? If so, what "Home-Theater-In-A-Box" do you have and does it give you the choice to set the "speaker size" to "large" to route some of the bass to it instead of to your subwoofer?


If you did not reset your source it is likely that part of the reason your woofers are not very active is the crossover in your HTIB is sending the low and mid bass to the sub.


Vper discovered that when his receiver was re-configured, the Audax speakers came alive. Yours might do the same if your Receiver is still set to feed "small" speakers.


I was fascinated by your trip to the electronics store. Comparing the Audax to a $2000 KEF must have been interesting. To have it hold its own (even if not compared side-by-side) makes me feel pretty good. I hope the salesperson was not too disappointed when you did not buy any of the center channels he demonstrated... not even one of the less expensive ones that were horrible to listen to.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Joe,

Since you have a 7200, could you tell me how you have your speakers configured? I didn't use the EZset EQ on the remote. I used a RS SPL meter and while I don't remember all the bass management settings, I do know that all my speakers are set to small. Maybe I should do some more tweaking. It sounds great in the new room, but maybe it could sound GRRREAT. I was unaware of the 6" rule that other manufacturers are using. My previous Denon was similar to my current HK 7200 for setup.


----------



## khonas

Joe,


I have a Kenwood HTIB receiver (not a bad receiver for what I paid) and I believe it does have the option to change from small to large speakers.....and I have not played around with this. You can bet I will the first oppporunity I get. I am currently finishing the cabinet on the center so it is not in my HT right now. ....just finished laminating it last night. I am hoping to have it back in the HT by the weekend...can't wait!


About the trip to the electronics store.....you don't know how bad the salesman wanted to "write me up" a sales ticket to take the $2000 KEF home that day. I pulled the "oh, I could never make that kind of purchase without conferring with the wife." I couldn't get myself to tell him I probably had a center at home that was just as good and DIY to boot for a fraction of the cost!


....................................

Here is a question for all the Audax home theater speaker owners out there:


I would like to use my HT speakers as a music system as well as for HT. How does the complete Audax system handle music in a non-HT situation? I currently have the center and plan to build the surrounds next. I am not sure about building the fronts because I want fronts that will handle music well. I am thinking about a pair of Ascends for the fronts which I have heard great things about. But, then I would be getting into non-matched speakers which could present other problems.


What do you guys think?


Ken H


----------



## timle

I have my audax center set to small and I'm very happy. I want the center to be free to give out crystal clear dialog. A really deep effect voice (think aladdin - the cave of wonders voice) my sub kicks in for the really deep notes that gives the bass you need for something like that. Now some of that might be on the LFE channel already, I don't know. But I do like to crank it and get amazingly clear dialog, nothing upsets me more if I have trouble making out whats being said.


As far as handling music I think my 2 audax fronts plus my sub makes a great music listening system. Of course I'm not over-critical on this as my usage is 90+ percent movies. I would never give up matched front, centers, surrounds to improve my music listening - but that fits my 90+ precent usage pattern.


2cents (actual retail value may vary)


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys,

I added a picture of my punctured midrange driver. When I finally squeezed behind the screen wall to change it, I noticed a scar on the front of the cabinet below the midrange. I probably punctured it while building the falsewall that hides my speakers. I still have one extra midrange, two woofers and two tweeters for the future.
http://europa70.tripod.com//audax_center011.htm


----------



## Duaner

Just thought I would give you all a progress update on my audax enclosures. I cut and glued the mdf panels for the front and rear baffles for all three speakers (2 fronts, 1 center) last weekend. I had some free time this morning to go into work and use the CNCs a bit. In about 3 hours I was able to size the front and rear baffles of all 3 speakers, mill the thru holes and the recesses for the drivers, plus drill pilot holes for the screws that mount the drivers. Worked pretty slick. Using the CNCs allows for extremely nice fits on everything.


I still have more work to do on them though. The front baffles need a 3/4 x 3/4 track milled around the back side to allow the side panels to go out around the second layer and to butt up against the front layer. The rear baffles need the port and connector holes milled too.


Do you guys think the rear baffle needs doubled up too? The 3/4 track around the outside edge of the back of the front baffle should make for a really strong glue joint having twice the surface area, but I didn't know if that was really necessary or not.


Once I get all the baffles cut I will post some pics.


Duane


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duaner,

I think I only doubled my front baffle. I've also built other types of speakers and additional Audax. Some of those I doubled the front to 1.5" and some I left at .75"


----------



## Duaner

Made it back into the shop again today to work on the speakers for a while. I now have all the mdf cut and sized, all the holes and counterbores cut, and all the panels except for the front baffles glued together. So far so good. I will wait to attach the midrange enclosure in the center, and the port baffle in the mains until I have the xo's built t make sure I have room to get every thing stuffed in. I will try to get some pics this week. The fit on these cnc machined panels is great... alot better than a very amateur woodworker like myself could have done with conventional tools.



Question:

Ports for these enclosures are specified as 2" for the center, and 3" for the mains... PVC pipe has an ID of approx 2.060 and 3.060 respectively. Is this going to matter? Do I need to adjust the length to accomodate for the difference in diameter?


I am a little nervous about the veneer job. I have never worked with veneer... ever... not once. I am going to go back through this thread and do a little research. I probably won't be able to make these look as nice as most commercial enclosures... but hopefully they will be decent.


----------



## fields_g

Well... this past week I finished off my entire 7 piece audax system. Like almost everyone who has built these, I found them to be incredible! I have one problem though. One of the front speakers do not put out as much bass as the other. All drivers are producing sound and the volume in most of the range is balanced with the other speaker. If you feel the port tubes, there is definitely a difference in the amount of air that is being moved. I hope to find a simple problem once I crack them open and compare, but my gut is telling me that it is going to take a bit of work to figure out. Since they are at my grandparents house at the moment, I am brainstorming what might cause such a response.


Things I've considered:

1) Polarity between crossover and woofer drivers are not correct

2) A component on the crossover is shot (any suggestions to which?)

3) Speaker wire available there wasn't that good

4) Perhaps the box wasn't sealed properly

5) Improper soldering in the crossover


If it comes down to probing the crossover with a multimeter, any suggestions on how to proceed. I hate the idea of unsoldering and re-soldering. Will doing comparative probes between the working crossover (intact) and the problematic one (intact) actually help determine which component is causing me grief?



Another topic.... I've seen people talking about the back magnet falling off the drivers. This happened to me on 3 of the 10 of the 6" drivers. I wasn't beating these thing up, I promise! Instead of sending them back, I just did a little sanding on both the basket and the metal housing and glued them with some epoxy. No more problem.



I started this project when I did (in the middle of the Minnesota winter) because of the drivers being discontinued. Let me tell ya... I think I would have rather done MDF cutting when it was above freezing. The looming shortage was on my mind. I currently don't have any spare drivers. It was suggested that spare tweeters would be more important than woofers. I'm not planning on abusing these speakers, but how many of these tweeters / woofers should I have laying around just in case?


Anyone who was wondering... I did get a receiver. Instead of the suggested Pioneer vsx-914, I went with the vsx-1014. I've found it to be work every bit of it's $385 price tag. Yes... and being a newly graduated college student I do realize how many Mc D's double cheeseburgers that could have been!


----------



## dynamowhum

Congratulations Fields. Welcome to the forum.


----------



## Duaner

quick pic of the unfinished center:


----------



## Duaner

one more:


This center is a big sucker... I am not sure where I am even going to place it... new tv stand maybe?


----------



## jsalk

Just thought I'd share some pics of my latest pair of HT3's headed for NYC.











Here is a closer shot of the front baffle.











- Jim


----------



## M NEWMAN

Absolutely gorgeous, Jim....what wood do you have on that front baffle? By the way, check out my inwalls in the inwall thread and tell me what ya think...


----------



## jsalk

Mike -


The baffles on those speakers are spalted American sycamore. The cabinets are fiddleback English sycamore (not related). The trim and plinths are curly maple.


I'll see if I can find your inwalls.


- Jim


----------



## dynamowhum

Jsalk you are truly an artist. One can see the obvious love of craft in your work and we appreciate your pictures very much. Thank you for sharing, just wish I could afford to listen to them. Cheers.


----------



## jsalk

dynamowhum -


Thanks. Listening is free, by the way. If I ever send any in your direction, I'll be sure and let you know.


- Jim


----------



## dynamowhum

Jsalk, thank you for your very kind offer. I realize listening is free, but the addiction is oh so costly.

By the way what process do you use to choose the woods and veneers. Do you leave it up to the client, or do you guide them after you interview them? It is just a matter of curiosity. My wife is a florist and I see how she interacts with her clients and I wondered if the choice process was similar.


----------



## jsalk

dynamowhum -


Yes, the process is collaborative. My view is that I am building their speakers, not mine. I try to get a good feel for what they are looking for and point them in the right direction. Sometimes the process is easy and sometimes it takes weeks or months to finally get it settled. And sometimes I have to tell them that their requested combination will not work or will not match the woods in their home. But in the end, they get exactly what they come to want and expect.


In the case of the sycamore cabinets, the client started by requesting white paint. So I suggested English sycamore because it is very white and looks far better than paint. I originally suggest burled maple for the front baffle. But when I went to cut it, it was too narrow.


So I started searching for interesting woods. I ran across a book-matched pair of spalted American sycamore on eBay. I always wanted to work with spalted wood, but didn't know if the client (Mark Spagnolo of NYC) would go for something this "wild."


So I sent him a link to the auction and asked him to take a look at it. Much to my surprise, he was crazy about it and sent me numerous emails about which section of the boards to use for the baffles (they were much longer).


In the end, he was thrilled and so was I. I only wish the photos would do the speakers justice. The detail just isn't there in the pics. But everyone who saw them prior to shipping thought they were the most stunning looking speakers they had ever seen.


- Jim


----------



## lerxst

Duaner,


Nice cabinet so far! I wimped out and bought my Audax cabinets pre-built from Madisound.


I don't have the plans available off hand, but I notice one discrepency between your cabinet and my Madisound cabinet. Namely, the tweeter on my cabinet is also recessed to be flush with the front baffle.


Good luck with the rest of your build, I think you're really going to enjoy that center speaker.


Regards,


Dan W.


----------



## Duaner

thanks lerxst. Things tend to go together pretty nice when you have machines that can cut within .0005".










The only reason I did not recess the tweeters was because the plans for enclosures said they did not require it.


I think I am going to like the sound of the center too... although I am not sure I am crazy about the size of the center given my current setup. Right now I have a small center speaker just sitting, rather balancing, ontop of the LCD RPTV... there's only about a 4" ledge there, so setting the audax up there is definitely out. I am thinking of building a hefty shelf on the wall that comes out over the top of the television... not sure how that is going to look though. I'll probably build a mockup out of cardboard first to see how it looks... if it's too gaudy looking, I'll probably try to find another tv stand large enough to accomidate the audax.


I am probably going to order the components for the XOs sooner than I thought... I was going to wait until my birthday, but I think I want to get these things done before nice weather sets in... plus I can't wait to hear what these things sound like. So... sometime like tonight I think I will place the order with PE.







That means that next week I'll probably be back here at the forum asking how to solder everything together.










duane


----------



## dynamowhum

Jsalk it never stops pleasing that feeling you get when you rub that finish on and show how it takes the light. Taking pieces of wood from ebay that the seller never had a clue to it's potential as a work of art.

Just revisited you web side. Some very nice stuff. J to you ever just do the cases for some who puts there own drivers in and crossovers. Which do you really preferr, the box work or the electronic side?


----------



## jsalk

dynamowhum -


I prefer the entire job so I can sit back and listen to what I've worked so hard on. Even when I only build the cabinet, I generally ask the client to send me the drivers and crossovers so I can install them. And I often don't charge extra because I really want to experience them as a finished product.


- Jim


----------



## M NEWMAN




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *dynamowhum -
> 
> 
> I prefer the entire job so I can sit back and listen to what I've worked so hard on. Even when I only build the cabinet, I generally ask the client to send me the drivers and crossovers so I can install them. And I often don't charge extra because I really want to experience them as a finished product.
> 
> 
> - Jim*



You're sick Jim, sick!....and you sound a lot like me....


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *Things tend to go together pretty nice when you have machines that can cut within .0005".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *




I should hope so....... Cheater....













> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *The only reason I did not recess the tweeters was because the plans for enclosures said they did not require it.*



Yeah. I think that may have been another minor "screw up/omission" in the original plans. Almost like in the one set of plans, that showed the wrong center x-over setup. That was later revised/corrected in another set, but yet the wrong one is still floating around. And it's probably still messing up a lot of people that trying to, or planning to build them.


----------



## jsalk

Mike -


Yeah, I'll admit it. I am sick. But I don't think it is communicable. My friends enjoy what I do, but none of them have caught the bug (except my friends in the speaker world, that is, but they were infected already).


And I'm expecting a turn for the worse. My first DEQX unit is on its way from Australia (it shipped yesterday), so there will be some serious work ahead developing active crossovers for all my designs. I hope to come out of it alive.


- Jim


----------



## M NEWMAN




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jsalk_
> *
> 
> .........so there will be some serious work ahead developing active crossovers for all my designs. I hope to come out of it alive.
> 
> 
> - Jim*



Yea, and next thing you know, digital amp cards in the speaker boxes, proprietary active xovers embedded on the same boards, etc, etc ,etc...you're dead man, dead...


----------



## Duaner

johnla:

are you saying that I should recess the tweeter as well?


question:


are the madisound XOs any good for the audax set? they priced the center and two main XOs for 35 bucks less than if I bought the parts seperate from PE... (used Robs spreadsheet for PE parts) Are the PE parts better in some way than the madisound XO's?


duane


----------



## jsalk

Duaner -


Not johnla, but tweeters should always be flush mounted to avoid diffraction aritifacts.


- Jim


----------



## Duaner

when johnla's not around... jsalk will just have to do... thanks...

do you know anything about the xo question I had?


----------



## lerxst

Duaner,


For the convenience, I just went with the pre-assembled x-overs from Madisound and to my ear they sound just fine. Not sure if there'd be a huge difference one-way or the other between components.


I did find an error in one of the x-overs from Madisound, but it was so long ago I can't remember exactly what it was... So, if you go with pre-built, just be sure to double-check the assembled connectivity of the components.


Good luck with the center placement and your LCD RPTV! Fortunately, I have an "old" CRT RPTV so have plenty of room on top for the center channel.


Dan W.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *when johnla's not around... jsalk will just have to do... thanks...*



I would say, that he is even a way better source of knowledgeable speaker building info than me......


----------



## jsalk

Duaner -


I am not familiar with the parts in either XO. If you can tell me what they are, I can certainly give you an opinion.


- Jim


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duaner,

I've been out of town all week and first I'd like to say great job on the cabinets. As for the tweeter, for this system they should be flush mounted, not recessed. Xovers from Madisound are probably good enough for these speakers. I've never heard of anyone getting an incorrect xover from Mad. The xover diagram on the Audax site is/was wrong but Mad included the corrected diagrams. However, they offer a standard xover and an upgraded version. I think the upgrades include different caps and inductors. The first set L/C/R that I built have the standard Mad xover and they still sound great. All the others I've built since those used either Solen or Dayton caps and 16-ga or better inductors. I also used Mills or Dayton resistors in the others.


I have a question for Jsalk: You probably remember that I built a set of MBOW1s. They are built the opposite way as far as tweeters and woofers go...the tweeters are recessed and the woofers are flush and mounted slightly over the bottom flange of the tweeters. I never really thought about it, but I wonder why?


----------



## Duaner

Thanks for the input guys. I guess I am going to buy the parts from PE and build these XOs myself... I am already in trouble for cheating on the enclosures







... wouldn't want to be guilty of that again with regard to the XOs.

















Anyways, PE is currently out of stock on the 8.0 ohm 10 watt resistor, of which I need 3. They are backordered until the 20th. Guess I'll have to wait. That's ok though... I need some time to get the port baffles made for the mains... forgot all about them. Plus I need to track down some material to assemble the XOs on.


Duane


----------



## jsalk

Jeff -


In terms of tweeters, flush mounting is always superior to surface mounting. At high frequencies where wavelengths are short, any surface irregularities will result in some turbulence (diffraction artifacts). They may not be all that audible, but they are measureable.


Sometimes manufacturers will say that it is not necessary with a certain tweeter, but it is always a good idea. I think they say that so less experienced wood-workers will go ahead with the project if they are leery of doing the work to flush mount.


As for the MBOW1, the Peerless of India M130 was designed to be surface mounted. If you will notice, the outer fame has a small radius on the edge to take care of diffraction. This allows the M130 to be mounted over the top of the tweeter faceplate so the drivers are cloer together.


- Jim


----------



## fields_g

I opened my fronts and found the problem. the polarity of one of the woofers was backward. It was the first thing I checked and would have had one heck of a time if it was anything other than that.


I also built my crossovers myself. I really enjoyed doing it also. I ordered my inductors from parts express, resistors from Madisound, and Caps from Madisound (mostly). I went with the PE inductors I wanted to have them as close to the inductance and ohm ratings as the plans. I went with the surplus GE caps. Had to play around with putting a couple in parallel to get some of the needed values, but I think it was worth it for getting cheap Poly caps.


I bought peg board and mounted the components to that. Hot glue on top, and soldered on the underside. When I put them in the cabs, I drilled some relief holes, and used screws. I used hex nuts to space the pegboard from the cabinet. For the 7 piece sysem, I ended up using around 35- 40 foot of 16 gauge speaker wire for the internal wiring. Probably could have used a little less, but really didn't over strain myself since I had 50 feet.


----------



## Duaner

OK, I have been studying these XOs in preparation for actually building them this week... since I don't know anything about electricity, I have a question. Posted below is an attachment of the main speaker XOs. I drew a circle with an arrow pointing to the area of question. Is there actually supposed to be a direct connection between R2 and R3? I am assuming this is correct, and that R2 and R3 have something to do with making this type of connection possible. I only understand basic series and parallel.


One more question... why are the woofers in the center channel wired up backwards? Will they actually move out of phase with the rest of the speakers in the system? How is this helpful? Wouldn't it sound funny?


duane


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## jimyb

First time poster. Loooooooong time lurker.


Duaner,

I'm also currently building those speakers. In answer to your questions, R2 and R3 are in series and the schematic is drawn that way just to help clarify the connections of the two speakers. Also, the speakers are in phase. Their polarities are the same with respect to the current flow through the circuit.


Good luck with your project.


Jim


----------



## Duaner

sorry jim, but I'm still lost. I guess I don't understand how the juice flows. Not that I need to I guess... I just want to make sure I understand how to read a XO schematic so i don't fry something by hooking it up wrong... which is entirely possible. If the way it looks in the drawing is exactly how the wires are supposed to look on the finished XO... then I should be good to go.


does anyone have any photos of their finished XOs that they can post?


Duane


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *
> 
> One more question... why are the woofers in the center channel wired up backwards? Will they actually move out of phase with the rest of the speakers in the system? How is this helpful? Wouldn't it sound funny?
> 
> 
> duane*



Duane,


The center channel woofer crossover design is such that it introduces a 180 degree phase change (at the crossover frequency) to the signal applied to the woofer speaker terminals compared to the signal applied to the midrange terminals. There are phase changes at other frequencies as well (other than at the crossover frequency), but they may not be 180 degrees the further you get from the crossover frequency. But then, the further you get from the crossover frequency where both the midrange and woofer cones are reproducing a given signal, the less it matters since only the woofer (or midrange) is reproducing the signal


By wiring the woofers with reversed polarity, the cones of the woofers actually end up moving in-phase with the midrange driver cone at the crossover frequency, and not backwards at all.


Joe L.

Edited to clarify that the 180 phase change is at the crossover frequency.


----------



## Duaner

Joe:


That's amazing to me. I wish I understood electronics better... actually I wish I understood electronics period. I am completely ignorant on the subject.


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## jm_person

New guy here.


Been reading lots over the past year off and on. I'm planning to build a home theatre/music system for me and my family.


Mr Salk, I've read lots of your posts and I like your ideas. I've also spoken a bunch with Mr. Murphy about his designs. Recently I happed across Gravity Research, I noticed mr. salk had built a few of the AV series and said they were good quality, the owner, Danny was extremely responsive to my questions.


I'll get to the point.


Has anyone built these GR AV/3's for HT? I have seen several good reports, but the more info the better.


I'd really like to start with the floorstanders (I have tons of room and a large room). I like how he also has a designed subwoofer in the system as well.


Thanks for all the good reading folks,


Josh in Phoenix


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## Rob Kramer

Hello Josh


There are a lot of great designs out there - at all different sizes, complexity, and costs (I built a Murphy design). There are also just as many friendly designers and DIYers willing to help out (Salk being one of those).


Ill get to the point.










For GR designs, got to their forum on the Audio Circle:
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/v...e8c4ce6a9b0d79 


You should be able to find lots of info there.


----------



## Duaner

Hi guys. Just wanted to update you all on my progress. I started assembling the main speaker woofer XOs last night. I bought peg board with no holes in it and layed all the components out and drilled my own holes. I then glued all the components down with goop and allowed it to dry overnight. I just got done soldering the wires together on the backside, including the leads for the input and the speakers. I have not had a chance to see if it works yet or not because I am still missing the resistors for "R1." I didn't know if it would hurt anything not having those installed or not... could I substitute one of the other resistors temporarily to see if the circuit works? I am guessing the drivers wouldn't sound like they are supposed to... that would be ok just for testing the integrity of my soldering job, as long as nothing blows up.


Soldering was a bit of a trick for me as it was my first time. After I figured out that the point on the iron was loose and wasn't getting hot enough it went real smooth.


I'll be sure to post some pics... maybe next week sometime.


I must say, building the XOs is pretty fun.


Duane


----------



## jm_person

Rob,


Thanks for the reply!

I checked out that forum... looks pretty good.


When I get these home speakers going, I'll be sure to post my experience up here.


Josh


----------



## jimyb

Duaner,


R1 for the fronts is 18 ohm. You could use from the center speaker components R1 (10 ohm) and R3 (8 ohm) wiring them in series for 18 ohms.


Jim


----------



## Duaner

Thanks Jim. I hooked everything up and... SUCCESS! I am going to try and get the rest of the XOs built today so that when the rest of the parts come I can give these things a listen. Can't wait. Just from hooking up the woofers by themselves in the box and blocking the ports, I can tell these are going to sound good... the bass extension was very good for all the bigger the drivers are. They don't play as low as my CVs, but the frequencies they do play down to sound very good. I never thought two little 6.5" drivers could keep up with my 12" CVs... nice... very nice.


----------



## Duaner

Well, XOs are all but completed... just need the 3 resistors that are on back order from PE. I hooked the center channel together to give it a quick listen... very nice... and thats without the mid-tweeter enclosure, the ports, and acoustic foam. I imagine when everything is assembled correctly and the drivers are broken in, they will sound much much better. I will wait until then to give any analysis (amateur though it may be) with respect to comparing these to other speakers I own. I can already tell that they are better, it's just a matter of how much better and why...


This is a great project, especially since I am starting to see the fruits of my labor. If I could do this for a living I would... it's that much fun. Now its back to the cabinets for a while... I need to put a few finishing touches on the mdf... corner rounds, filling and sanding, installing the ports, faom, ect... I hope to have some pics this week. I need to get some veneer pretty soon as well. I think lowes carries a few varieties.


Duane


----------



## selmerakt

It's great to hear about everybody's projects, and the progress they've been making!


I started my Audax HT project ~1.5 years ago and after completing the center channel, and just getting into the front Left/Right speakers, it all got put on hold for a while... I changed jobs, got married, moved to an apt, etc.


I've just now had time to get back into it, and thought I'd share some pics of the progress. (hopefully the pics all work...)


The center channel is complete, aside from the veneer, and has been in use for over a year. I am very pleased with the result, and can't wait to complete the set.

I don't have a picture of the completed center, but here's a couple I took during construction...


Top view of the inside.










Here it is with the speaker it replaced.










In the last couple weeks, I have finally been able to chip away at the front L/R speakers...


Here's a shot of one of the crossovers.










Even in a cardboard box, they sound better than the JVC's they are replacing!!


----------



## selmerakt

I also built a 15" sub to go with the set.

This is an old picture of it, as it has since been completed and moved to another room.

I didn't have any specs on the driver, so I just built the box using the dimensions of the production B15 enclosure. (It was given to me, from a damaged B15 that was being discarded... works great after a bit of soldering. The binding posts were broken off of the driver, and the wire leads had been burnt apart somehow







kinda scary...)

I'm pretty happy with the result, but someday I'd like to try to measure or find the T/S parameters of the driver to build a better enclosure.


(it is being driven by one channel of one of the DBX amps. The sub on top is from my car)


----------



## Tigger09

FYI


I was on the phone with PE for something else and asked how many Audax AP 170ZOs they had in stock and the sales rep told me they have over 2000 of them.


----------



## technimac

Hi Selmerakt,

I'd love to see the pictures that you posted, but they are not showing. Is there any chance you can retry the posting? Thanks, from another Audax HT "constructus interruptus" builder. Cheers, Bruce


----------



## technimac

Hi again,

Pix are working now - don't know why the earlier glitch. Those crossovers are looking great. Nice to see another builder "chipping away" at this project so successfully.

Bruce


----------



## selmerakt

The earlier glitch was because my MSN "Space" was set to private, rather than public... so I was the only one who had access to the pictures... oops!










How far along are your speakers?

any pictures of the progress? =)


-aaron


----------



## Duaner

Looks good selmerakt... I can't wait to get mine up and running. Tonight I glued in the acoustic foam and the ports for all 4 front speakers. I have to wait on 3 backordered resistors before I can close these babies up and have a listen. Those probably won't be in until next week I am guessing. Probably then I will post some pics.



Duane


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## Duaner

Oh no, I just checked the PE website... those resistors are not due in until the 8th of march... guess I'll be waiting a little longer than expected.



Duane


----------



## khonas

Duaner,


If you don't want to wait for the back-ordered parts from PE, order them from madisound.com. If I wouldn't have done that, I would still be waiting for the one capacitor I needed to finish my center. PE seems to keep moving their backorder dates on these parts back and back and back..... When I initially ordered the parts for my center, the backorder date for my single capacitor was Feb 2....then Feb 18....then March 2....etc.


FYI


Ken H


----------



## WGubbe

Hi all,


I finished the construction of my Audax speakers a few months ago. They sound great and I am very pleased with the result after all the work that went into them. Now it is time to really finish them ie. the veneer. I have never done this before and I am a bit nervous about it. I purchased mahogany 10 mil paper backed veneer and my supplier suggested that I use contact cement. OK I am going that way. I have help so it won't be just me to hold the veneer and the roller etc.

My real question is this: How do you start? I mean if I look at my small back speakers my thought is to do the sides and front in one wrap around piece and then add the back, top and bottom as single pieces. The fl and fr would be the same. For the centre I would do one piece for the top front and bottom then the sides and back. Does anyone see a problem with this? I am trying to avoid seams in awkward places etc. I would appreciate any advise that anyone could give me on this. We only have one chance at this and I don't want to screw it up now. LOL! I have looked at many of the excellent pic's that have been posted here but I cannot see the method of work.

Thank you, Bill


----------



## jimyb

I just finished building the Audax speakers (center, 2 fronts, 2 surrounds, and 1 rear) and I must also say they sound great.

For the parts that were not in stock at Parts Express I ended up just using parallel equivalent combinations to get the values needed. For the extra few dollars I was able to have the parts on hand and not have to wait.

Although I plan on hiding these speakers in a home theater, I did buy the vinyl laminate from Parts Express and finished them with that. I did not round the corners so pretty much just followed the example on PE's site or for example on the front speakes I started midway on the bottom, ran up one side, across the top, down the other side and then seamed on the bottom. The front and back were then each seperate pieces. They look OK but lack the quality look of wood or wood laminate/veneer. If the speakers are going to be "seen" then having a real wood surface is definetely the way to go.


Now I'm wondering if I should build another rear.



Jim


----------



## Doug Fraser

Wgubbe:


I too am starting on my first veneer project.


I have done a bunch of research and most of the experts say "don't use contact cement". The preferred method is iron on PVA glue. PVA is white glue such as tightbond or Lepages white glue


You can read more here:

http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips/ironon.html 


The advantage of the iron on method is that you have wiggle room. With contact cement you have to get it right the first time.


There has been a discussion on veneering you may find interesting, scoll down about ¾ of the way.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=3537 


Here is an excerpt from the thread:


As an alternative to contact cement, try ironing on with PVA glue.


1. Prep substrate (should be perfectly flat and clean).

2. Cut veneer 1/2"-1" oversize OR....

2a. You can apply the glue to an entire sheet of veneer, let dry and then cut to size.

3. With a foam roller cover, apply coat of yellow glue mixed with a little water (to let it roll on easier) to the substrate (I usually just pour a little glue on the surface and roll it around)

4. Roll on a coat to back of veneer using push-pins or tape to hold it down flat. Make sure no glue gets on face of veneer!

5. Substrate may need second coat, especially edges. You want the material to be built up on the

surface.

6. Let dry.

7. Position veneer on substrate (it will not adhere without heat).

8. Using household iron set at medium high, proceed to iron on the veneer, starting at center and working out. Keep the iron moving slowly so as not to burn the veneer. (trial piece good idea to get the feel for it). Use edge of wood block to keep pressure on it as you iron.

9. Trim as usual.

10. Before glueing adjacent sides, apply masking tape to the edge of the veneered side where it

meets the raw face that will be getting glue next. Again, make sure no glue gets on the face of any of the veneer!!! (this applies to using contact cement also)


A couple of big advantages are:

Bond strength.

Ability to position veneer.

Surface will be FLAT when you're done. Contact cement is much more difficult to control, and really isn't recommended for unbacked veneer.


Since I am new to the veneer game I really can't comment on your veneering plan. I have heard that you can buy veneer softener in order to bend it around radius' if required.


Regards,

Doug


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I used the yellow glue method for every speaker I've built. If you have rounded the corners of the cabinet, you can wrap a single piece of veneer. Start in the rear center and iron that portion. Then, add yellow TiteBond to the side and wait until is starting to get glossy looking but not dry (tacky). Then iron that side. Continue around the front and final side. When you get to the second half of the back side...allow the veneer to overlap the first edge about 1/2"-1". Glue this final piece but DON't glue the overlapping edge. Then with an exacto knife or similar and a straight edge, cut a straight line down the center of the back panel. This will leave a very neat seam on the back. If you go to the PE site, there is a similar method posted under their vinyl veneer. Then all you have to do is trim the speaker holes, port holes and the top and bottom edges where you left som overhang. Then add veneer to the top and bottom of the speaker.


----------



## Duaner

good idea khonas... too bad i didn't think of that a week ago... I called madisound tonight after reading your post, and they are shipping the 8 ohm resistors out pronto.


Duane


----------



## WGubbe

Thank you everyone for your comments on veneering. I have decided to give both glueing methods a try. My friend and I will make a sample of each on some scrap MDF and see how it goes. That is the yellow glue iron on approach and the contact cement. So like that I will have a little experience with both.

I will let you know how it turns out and will try and post pic's after. I plan on covering them with mahogany veneer stained and then finish with a Danish oil finish. Should look gorgeous.

Thanks again,


Regards, Bill


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WGubbe_
> *Thank you everyone for your comments on veneering. I have decided to give both glueing methods a try. My friend and I will make a sample of each on some scrap MDF and see how it goes. That is the yellow glue iron on approach and the contact cement. So like that I will have a little experience with both.
> 
> I will let you know how it turns out and will try and post pic's after. I plan on covering them with mahogany veneer stained and then finish with a Danish oil finish. Should look gorgeous.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> 
> Regards, Bill*



One of the best descriptions of use of contact-cement and wrap around veneer to hide seams that I found is at the following link:
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/resou...ertutorial.pdf 


That same link has tons of good info on trimming veneer.


Also, great tips on trimming veneer around driver cutouts is here on speakerbuildet.net 


One of the best descriptions of the dried-yellow-glue technique is at http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_3_3/v3n3d.html and was written by one of the contributors to this thread.


I used a felt-pad type paintbrush to apply my glue (I used standard tightbond woodworkers glue, not the newer "expanding" formulas... don't think they would work for this method.) I did learn that you must apply the glue in an even layer. If it is uneven, it will show the un-evenness through the veneer. I thinned the glue with about 10 percent water before applying it almost like it was a coat of paint. If it feels bumpy after it has dried, it was too thick and not applied evenly enough.


Here I applied yellow glue to the back of the veneer:










I let it dry till it was shiny, then cut the pieces I needed for the enclosure.


Here it has dried:










I applied a similar coat of thinned yellow glue to my enclosure and let it dry. It should look shiny, almost as if it was coated with shellac before you attempt to iron and bond the veneer to the cabinet. If the glue soaks into the MDF and it does not look shiny after it has dried, it needs another coat of thinned glue.


And lastly, here I am trimming the veneer after ironing it on. Note you can see the shiny glue on the backside of the veneer I have not yet trimmed off.










I did the back of the enclosure first (where mistakes are less noticeable), then bottom, top, and lastly, the piece that wrapped around the front and the two sides. I figured the seam at top and bottom ends would be least visible that way.


Your idea to do test pieces first to gain practice is right on target. It is even more important as you experiment with stain and finish till you get the exact finish you want to apply on your speakers.


Joe L.


Edited to add links for contact-cement based tips and driver cutout trimming tips.


----------



## WGubbe

J.L.


Thanks for the advise and the links on veneering. Very informative. I will practice and let you know how it turns out. Thanks again.


Regards, Bill


----------



## Duaner

Well, I have been listening to the new center channel for a few hours now... I don't actually have the XO for the tweeter finished, as I am still waiting for an 8 ohm resistor, but I used one of the tweeter XOs from the mains temporarily... This thing sounds great. Absolutely wonderful, especially in comparison to the $50 CV center I have been using. The bass is tight, the mids are clear as can be, and the highs are crystal. I am completely satisfied with this speaker.


It's definitely not as effecient as the old CV mains I have though, which are rated at 97 db ( I think). It seems like it will produce the same spl as the CVs... just at a different location on the volume knob. This is not necessarily bad though... as it more closely matches the sensitivity of my rear surrounds (polks at 89db) that I used to have turned up all the way to +10db to even get close to the CVs. It seems like they will run with this center at about 0 or +1 or +2. I have to turn the gain on the amps for the IB subs way down too.


I can't wait to hear the Audax mains pumping right along side this center. I am sure it will sound great having the front soundstage voice matched for the first time in my HT history.


duane


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duane,

Congrats! It sounds like you're nearly there. You are correct about the efficiency of these...they like a lot of power. Some day, I'll connect my tube amps to them and see if anything comes out. I have two 8-watt monoblock amps and a Bottlehead Foreplay preamp for 16-whopping watts! They would definitely drive your 96db speakers. The Audax will sound even better after some breakin time.


----------



## usabrian

Some tips on the dry-glue method:


1. Do not use white glue. It has a higher melting temperature than yellow glue.


2. If you are seeming be careful as the moisture in the veneer that you had to add to keep the veneer from curling and the moisture you might have in an iron will cause the veneer to shrink/expand. You might think you have a good seam and then it will separate as the veneer drys. Its best to buckle the veneer at the joint about an eighth inch and then iron the buckle out. Be patient. You will think the buckle is too much but then...As the veneer continues to shrink you get a tight joint. There are some books that discuss this.


3. You need to use the pieces within a few days. It seems the glue gets stale over time and loses bond.


Brian


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *Well, I have been listening to the new center channel for a few hours now... I don't actually have the XO for the tweeter finished, as I am still waiting for an 8 ohm resistor, but I used one of the tweeter XOs from the mains temporarily... This thing sounds great. Absolutely wonderful, especially in comparison to the $50 CV center I have been using. The bass is tight, the mids are clear as can be, and the highs are crystal. I am completely satisfied with this speaker.
> 
> 
> It's definitely not as effecient as the old CV mains I have though, which are rated at 97 db ( I think). It seems like it will produce the same spl as the CVs... just at a different location on the volume knob. This is not necessarily bad though... as it more closely matches the sensitivity of my rear surrounds (polks at 89db) that I used to have turned up all the way to +10db to even get close to the CVs. It seems like they will run with this center at about 0 or +1 or +2. I have to turn the gain on the amps for the IB subs way down too.
> 
> 
> duane*



Duane,

You have a pretty decently calibrated set of ears.










According to the Audax plans:


> Quote:
> Centre channel on-axis frequency response is within +1.5dB from 100Hz to 20kHz. The low
> 
> frequency -3dB point is 50Hz and sensitivity is 87.5dB/2.83v/1m



.


It appears as if sensitivity is right in line with your rear surrounds.


In case you wondered, the L/R channel speakers sensitivity is rated at 88dB/2.83v/1m.


Joe L.


----------



## Duaner

Thanks for the complement on the ears J.L., though you imbelish a bit.


I got the 8 ohm resistors in the mail today from madisound, and was able to finish the XOs this afternoon. All three channels have been up and running for a few hours now. Impressive clarity and detail in music and movie source material.


Deafening spls are definitely more difficult to attain because of the low effeciency ratings... but what they lack in spl, they account for (and then some) in clarity and detail. That's not to say that they are not loud enough... they definitely are, at least for my taste. My guess is, however, that once I upgrade to a higher quality reciever, I will experience some volume gain.


Imaging was one thing I thought little about when building these speakers, but it is obvious that it was paramount to D'Appolito when he designed them. The center channel can anchor the sound to the screen extremely well... from almost anywhere in the seating area. Vocals are right there in your face now, wheras before I had trouble hearing them during loud action scenes like the depth charge scenes in U571. (Not that I expected too much out of small CV center speaker that costs only 50 bucks. While CV might not make the audiophile speakers that we all dream of, I still maintain that from a price point perspective, they offer great value... especially for younger folks who want inexpensive party speakers.







)


All in all I am extremely satisfied with the entire lineup of the audax front soundstage... and they seem to blend pretty good with the fx300i polk surrounds that I own too... though I think they sound much better than the polks. Actually, I will go out on a limb and say these are some of the best sounding speakers I have ever heard... granted my frame of reference is quite small, and limited to setups I have heard at other places. I have some experience listnening to high end Boston Acoustics in an HT setup, and of course the standard BB and CC stuff... The Audax is way better than anything at BB or CC, and seems to compete gracefully with the Bostons. In fairness, this deduction is made without actually being able to A/B these speakers in my home, but I think it is fairly accurate, and I feel comfortable saying it. When you throw in the economic value of these speakers compared to high end stuff... WOW... makes a person feel warm and fuzzy all over.


I am going to continue testing these out for a week or so before I tighten everything down and glue the front baffles on... just to check the integrity of my connections. Then it's on to finishing the enclosures. Not sure yet what I am doing there. I have seen some speakers with very nice automotive finishes on them... base coat with like 10 coats of clear... not sure if I want that look or not, but it is very nice if done right. Lowes has red oak veneer in stock... if I use it I will probably do like J.L. did and stain them black. Oh, yeah... I need to figure out how I am going to support this big dang center channel above the tv too... that should be fun.


Duane


----------



## WGubbe

Duaner wrote: Oh, yeah... I need to figure out how I am going to support this big dang center channel above the tv too... that should be fun.


Right on! I am having this same problem. At this time my center is on the floor in front of my TV and tilted upward towards the seating position by a block of wood. I don't want to leave it like this for one reason I don't know if that position affects the sound quality and it also blocks some access to my A/V equipment which is in a 3 shelf table under the TV. So I am thinking to build a shelf/stand to be installed behind the TV and bring the speaker up to just above the TV. Don't know how that will look either. Anybody have any other ideas.

Regards, Bill


----------



## Duaner

Wgubbe:


Not sure if you have seen this thread for a glass shelf that someone did above their tv. I was looking at it thinking it was one of the nicer looking ideas I have seen so far... but not sure if it was feasable with such a giant center like the audax. I am guessing that if you had a heavy enough piece of glass you could do it... like maybe a 3/4" thick piece. The wall bracket would have to be pretty stout too.


I was at CC this weekend looking at a cheesy little stand they sell that basically sits on the top of the tv with two legs in the back of it that extend down to the back side of the tv. The one they had is definitely not large enough to accomidate the audax.. but I kind of like the concept. Only thing is... the audax center weighs about half what the tv weighs... I think the frame on the tv would support the weight, but I would not want to make the television top heavy, and I am not sure if there would be any long term effect on the tv chassis from the extra weight.


One option would be to combine this idea with the first, having the bottom of the glass at a level on the wall that would be exactly the same as the top of the television. That way the tv would be supporting around half the weight of the speaker, while the wall supports the other half. But I am not sure I like that either... seems cheesy.


I thought about adding a shelf to the stand that the tv is on so that I could slip the audax under the tv... but I don't think I want the tv any higher than it already is, not to mention the troubles of adding a shelf to a stand in a way that it looks like part of the original stand.


This is going to take some time to figure out...


Duane


----------



## Duaner

Here is a good idea... check out RLA's Center Stand on this forum... I am going to look at these and see if they will work in my setup. Not nearly as nice looking as the glass shelf, but I think it might do.


Duane


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duaner,

Nice review. When you get your new amp/receiver, you won't be disappointed. I use an HK7200 as does JL and I can tell you I have never exceeded the -15db setting on the dial. It can put out close to 200wpc and can make your ears bleed







The 7200 was recently replaced by the 7300 and I for one am a fan of HK as well as Denon for their warm sound. If you think the center channel speaker is a beast, try picking up a 7200 without bending your knees (over 50-lbs).


Good luck breaking them in.


----------



## zamboniman

Anyone heard both the Audax HT and the AR.COM DIY from EFE? I'm torn between these two for my home theater build. The Audax looks very tempting especially the center. However, the AR.COM gets rave reviews from a sound quality perspective. I can easily build 7 of these for a nice matched system. If it matters the room will be a multi use media room both for HT, sporting events, and occasional music listening. Both options fall into the approx price range I'm looking...... any advise?


Thanks,


John


----------



## moonhawk

I have nearly finished my Subs--Two North Creek Poseidons. The first coat of wipe on poly is drying as we speak, and I should be able to hook them up some time tomorrow.


Will post pics and a report soon.


Also, the satellites I posted pics of a few pages back are finished, well broken in, and sound very nice.


----------



## 1Time

I recently bought a pair of the AR.com DIY speakers by Ed Frias from Madisound. I got them for listening to music since I already have HT speakers, and for music they're just what I was hoping for.


However, to my great surprise I've found this speaker to be the best center channel I've ever heard. My long and frustrating search for THE center channel is finally over. Of course it doesn't carry the weight and oompf of many larger center channels, but the dialog and mids are so realistic. There's just something about the voicing of this speaker that sets it far apart from any other I've heard. A few other brands I've tried over the years: Ascend, B&W, PSB, BIC of America, Definitive Technology, NHT, Energy, Boston Acoustics, and Onix Rocket.


It took me a while to get these DIY speakers tweaked the way I prefer them to sound. I ended up adding a 4ohm resistor to tone down the tweeter, replacing the kit's foam padding with polyfill, and then adjusting the treble and bass settings a bit in my AVR630. I still may tweak it some more to see what I can come up with, but for now I couldn't be more pleased.


----------



## zamboniman

Thanks for the feedback 1Time. That topic was my biggest hangup so far with the AR. I was worried that it wouldn't perform well in the center position regarding clear intelligible dialog. I think I'm going to give them a try. Maybe start with just a pair to do some testing with. If they turn out unsatisfactory for my theater, I could always just use them elsewhere. If they a great then I'll order a few more to finish out the bunch.


Thanks again,


John


----------



## moonhawk

1time


Got Link?


----------



## 1Time

You're welcome John. You may want to try them with an added resistor for the tweeter. Madisound sells them for about $1 each. I tried my pair without adding any resistors and by adding 3, 4, and 5 ohm resistors. I plan on ordering at least one more pair. I then may sell one speaker to give me a total of 3, 5, or 7 of these since I'll be using one for the center channel.


Here's a link to Madisound: http://www.madisound.com/. Click on "Kits" and then "Audio-Review.Com Kit".


----------



## zamboniman

1Time.... Just a thought but I know that madisound will sell them as singles too... Not sure what pricing would be but just something to consider to save the hassle of offloading a sinle unit.


Thanks for the tip on the extra resistor. I'll probably order an assortment to test with to find what I like the most.


----------



## 1Time

And thank you... I never thought to ask for an odd number; I just assumed they were only sold in pairs. I recommend trying 2, 3, and 4ohm resistors. The 5ohm I tried is not recommended by Ed Frias and I found it to be too much. There's already a 2ohm resistor for the tweeter in the crossover so trying these resistors will be adding to this 2ohm resistance on the tweeter.


FYI: here's an informative thread about the AR.com speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...m#post4354878.


----------



## thenumber8

I have a couple of questions for you guys. I'm planning on building the Audax HT system after reading through almost all of this thread. I'm really impressed by some of the work done.


1. I'd like to have the front and back panels black like the Taylor cabinets ( www.taylorspeakers.com ). The thing that confuses me is how to do the top and bottom pieces of those 2 panels. would the best way be to veneer the tops and bottoms of those 2 panels before veneering the front or is there a way to fold the veneer over the corner before hot gluing it?


2. Are there any drawbacks to building the Audax fronts as towers instead of bookshelves? If I do build them as towers, is there anything I should watch for when I do so?


3. I'd also like to build a pair of computer speakers. Ive looked at several small bookshelf models on Madisound and NorthcreekMusic but nothing really stood out. Are there any DIY magnetically shielded kits? This isn't too big of a deal as I have a LCD monitor.


Thanks in advance.


----------



## moonhawk

8


FWIW, I'm using the NorthCreek Ikemo's for surrounds. They are killer sounding, but I tried them as computer speakers, and they're a little large, and seem to like being a little further apart.


I'm running them now as mains with the NorthCreek Poseidon subs...Pics to follow soon.


EDIT: (The pics of the Ikemo's are a few pages back).


----------



## Duaner

Well, I went ahead and bought a wall bracket for a 13" tv to mount the audax center channel above the television. I had a sears gift card, and they happened to have a decent one in stock for fifty bucks... so I bought it. It works great... I mounted it so there is almost no gap at all between the tv and the bottom of the speaker... you can't see the tv mount at all unless you are behind the television, and the speaker just looks like it's sitting on top of the tv.


It's not the fanciest way to mount you center, but with a speaker this size there aren't alot of options without spending a bunch of money... so this works pretty good for me. The speaker is HUGE though, and does look just a little funny sitting up there in all it's spectacular hugeness. I will try to get some pics posted this week. Hopefully it will look better once I finish the cabinet and put the speakers back in it.


Speaking of finishing the cabinets, I never knew how expensive paper backed veneer was... lowes has a few boxes of 2'x4' red oak... 48" is not enough to get the sides and front of the center veneered in all one piece, and I would need 6 boxes anyways... which whould cost about 180 bucks... yikes... I have already spent way more this year for my HT hobby than I planned... Has anyone used the fake wood vinyl veneer that PE sells? Us it decent? I hate to use it, but I am not sure I want to spend the money for real wood... it seems a shame to come all this way just to skimp out on the coverings... hmm... I'll have to think about this a while...


Duane


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *Speaking of finishing the cabinets, I never knew how expensive paper backed veneer was... lowes has a few boxes of 2'x4' red oak... 48" is not enough to get the sides and front of the center veneered in all one piece, and I would need 6 boxes anyways... which whould cost about 180 bucks... yikes... I have already spent way more this year for my HT hobby than I planned... Has anyone used the fake wood vinyl veneer that PE sells? Us it decent? I hate to use it, but I am not sure I want to spend the money for real wood... it seems a shame to come all this way just to skimp out on the coverings... hmm... I'll have to think about this a while...*



Check here, they have some nice veneer. And also a VERY wide selection to chose from.
www.oakwoodveneer.com


----------



## moonhawk

Go for the wood, dude....


----------



## Johnla

Another thing that could be used that would be cheaper than veneer. Providing that you were possibly looking more towards a gloss black finish. And that would be similar looking to piano black, is 4'x8' sheets of gloss black Formica counter-top covering.


----------



## J. L.

I used 4 by 8 foot sheets of veneer from woodworker.com They were about 55 dollars a sheet at the time. Shop around, the local Lowes/HD is way more expensive.


----------



## BigguyZ

Haven't posted in some time, but I've been busy....


I've built some stands for my Audax mains, but I'm having trouble getting a good finish on both the stands and the mains. First, for a section of the stand and the mains, I used a quick dry gloss wood finish. It really brought out the color and the detail of the wood, even after I stained it, however it also left drip marks and all sorts of small mistakes I couldn't get out.


Then- For the stands I used the gloss clear finish on a section, but I also used a spray lacquer paint for the base and top of the speaker. Now- I let the final coat sit for 6 days, and after I worked with the pieces they still got marked up and marred- even by 3M blue painter's tape!


Does anyone have any recommendations as far as what product will give me the best type of finish? I'm probably going to go back after I finish my surrounds + stands and sand the current coat of the gloss finish off and sand down the stand end caps... Not to mention that I need to finish the surrounds as well (starting that tomorrow). I've been working on this project for over a year, and I'm kind of "Done" with it, and I want to move on to something else- like an amplifier or getting a projector to replace my 27" TV and mounting/installing that. Not to mention I have a house to fix up... Any help would be great. How is hand wiped poly for that? Or how about epoxy varnish? I need something that sets fairly quickly so I have handle it and it won't mark up. What good are my speakers if it takes a month for them to cure? Or is that my only option?


If you can't tell, I'm kinda frustrated...


----------



## Johnla

Lacquer should dry fairly fast. And dry to the touch on just the surface itself, in a few minutes.

And some lacquers will harden enough that they can be buffed out by the next day or so.


BUT, there is one thing about using a lacquer based paint/finish. Is that most lacquers should not be applied over some other types of finishes, such as a enamel paint/finish. As the lacquer can actually soften such finishes, and in extreme cases it can almost work like a paint remover on them.


You really need to be careful when using one type of paint/finish over another type, because sometimes they can have adverse reactions to each other.


The hardest and most durable finishes are the two part catalyzed types. Of which Epoxy paint is one type, but there are also two part catalyzed enamels. But even some of them are also the kind of paints that can possibly soften the paint it is applied over.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duane,

I've built 6 sets of speakers and I've always purchased from Oakwood Veneer. I've used Knotty Pine, Ribbon Striped Mahogany and Cherry. It has all been high quality and well packaged. I also used their Cherry veneer on the four columns in our HT. I used Watco Danish Oil on the Mahogany and Cherry. I used a brush and painted it on with excellent results.


----------



## moonhawk

Bigguyz...


Sorry to hear about your frustrations..


Working with wood finishes can be frustrating...Johnla is right, be careful about what you put over what.


And before you do anything, you should sand out those drips and sags...and be very careful not to burn through your stain. use a good sanding block, and don't use any grit coarser than what is necessary.


A good undercoat that is compatible with most finishes is a shellac based sanding sealer by Zinnser..It is called Bull's Eye Seal Coat, and you may need to use it to bond with your mixture of finishes. BE CAREFUL...It sets up quickly, and is tough to sand if you get drips.


I always put it on and wipe it in sections as I go. For a final coat, I think you will like the wipe on Polyurethane's...they are easy to work with for those with less experience, and I'm using them, with the shellac undercoat, for all my speaker projects.


Good luck...and don't forget to sand out your mistakes...in any type finish...before you go to the next phase. You don't want to seal in those mistakes.


----------



## Duaner




> Quote:
> Go for the wood, dude....



OK, moonhawk... I am convinced!


Thanks everybody for the input... I went ahead and visited oakwoodveneer.com and ordered up two sheets of 10 mil paper backed red oak... WAY WAY WAY cheaper than Lowes... two 4x8 sheets right around 100 clams. And two sheets will leave me quite a bit left over for some other projects.



Once I get the veneer on I think I am going to use the black analine dye stuff that J.L. used on his audax kit. The center is sooooooo big that I think black will help detract from its mighty hugeness as it hovers above the television... At least my tv is pretty decent sized... if it were smaller the proportion of speaker to tv would be even more out of whack.


Anyways... can't wait to get the veneer delivered so I can start glueing. Thanks again for the help guys.


Duane


----------



## BigguyZ




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Johnla_
> *Lacquer should dry fairly fast. And dry to the touch on just the surface itself, in a few minutes.
> 
> And some lacquers will harden enough that they can be buffed out by the next day or so.
> 
> 
> BUT, there is one thing about using a lacquer based paint/finish. Is that most lacquers should not be applied over some other types of finishes, such as a enamel paint/finish. As the lacquer can actually soften such finishes, and in extreme cases it can almost work like a paint remover on them.
> 
> 
> You really need to be careful when using one type of paint/finish over another type, because sometimes they can have adverse reactions to each other.
> 
> 
> The hardest and most durable finishes are the two part catalyzed types. Of which Epoxy paint is one type, but there are also two part catalyzed enamels. But even some of them are also the kind of paints that can possibly soften the paint it is applied over.*



That could be it- I used a grey primer under the lacquer. You think that's the reason the lacquer is so touchy, even after 6 days?


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *That could be it- I used a grey primer under the lacquer. You think that's the reason the lacquer is so touchy, even after 6 days?*



It would depend on the primer itself. On if it is the kind that can have lacquer applied over it or not. Some primers can have almost anything applied over them. But there are also some that can not.


But if you also put on too many coats too fast, that can do it also. In other words, the previous coat of finish/paint must be cured/dried enough for a next coat to be applied over it. Some finishes/paint dry/cure from the inside out, and some dry/cure from the outside in. And if you apply many coats too fast, then underlying coats can sometimes never fully dry/cure, because they are now trapped in a somewhat uncured state by the multiple coats that were applied over them.


One good example of this is "runs" in paint, as they almost always stay soft far longer than the proper coat/thickness of paint does.

And another good example would be, in like how those big drips you almost always see on the side of a can of paint, varnish or polyurethane from either pouring from the can or from just being a bit sloppy. Is that those "drips" many times will still stay soft for days or even weeks and sometimes even months, after you last used that can of finish/paint.


----------



## Duaner

does any one have any idea how much yellow glue I am going to need to cover these three speakers with veneer?


Duane


----------



## Randy Mathis

Audax woofers are on sale now at PE


----------



## DonoMan

Duaner: a can of 3m Super 77


----------



## Duaner

Oh no! The veneer was delivered today... so I excitedly began cutting the pieces out only to realize that the piece that wraps around the front and two sides of the center channel would have to be bent against the grain as it wraps around the 1/2" radius on the corners... The veneer does not bend against the grain very well at all, and the length of that piece would have to be at least 49" long... the sheets are only 48" wide... What in the world do I do now? Is there a way to soften the veneer to make it bend easily against the grain or am I screwed? Please help.


Duane


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Man, that's too bad. I hope someone has a solution. Even with the grain running vertical, you have to be very careful.


----------



## Duaner

I wish I had known this before I started... hind sight is always 20/20 I guess... I suppose I will either have to splice a seam down the front in the center, or order a longer piece of veneer. this bites.



Duane


----------



## selmerakt

I'm assuming that the 49" length that you need is from the back-top around the front to the back-bottom. Is that right?


If that's the case, and you have a 48" long piece that is wide enough, could you start at the back/top, wrap around the front and have your seam 1" from the back on the bottom? (where it is not likely to be seen).


I haven't worked with veneer before, and I'm not sure what size your cut piece is, so feel free to correct me if I'm way off here!










Good luck! I hope you can find a solution!


-aaron


----------



## BigguyZ

I had to do a couple of seems on my speakers when I realized that the grain on the 2'x4' rolls I bought runs down the length of the roll, not the width. It's an easy error to make, but you'll only make it once.


----------



## Johnla

I can't say for sure, but maybe using a veneer softener like what is used for burl and crotch veneers. Would possibly help you in bending "across the grain", seeing as how burls and crotch veneers have grain that runs every which way, and it works for them. But I don't know if it can even be used on paper backed veneers.


http://www.joewoodworker.com/catalog...53a5e435552755


----------



## Duaner

Well, I started veneering tonight... The iron on yellow glue method is great... super super easy. To get the hang of it I started with the back side of mains. I cut the sheets to overhang an inch or so, and then cut most of the excess off with a utility knife, leaving about 1/32 or so that I sand off with some 150 grit sanpaper on a block of wood. Makes for super clean and straight edges. The veneer is a little difficult to cut against the grain, but once you get the hang of it, it's no big deal. THe blade must be very sharp, and you kind of have to use the blade a little bit like a saw and gently twist the piece you are cutting off down and away from the cut... seems to get a nice clean cut without chipping the grain. Tomorrow I am going to borrow a router from the brother-in-law to cut the veneer around the holes.


I am not too worried about the seam that I am going to have on the front of the speaker... it's going to be broken by the two speakers, so I don't even think it will be noticeable. I will iron both pieces around until I get to the center where I will let the two peices overlap and cut through both of them with a straight edge. Once they are cut, I will iron them down, that should give me a near perfect joint that once stained should look pretty good. Hopefully by the end of this weekend I will have these baby's done... except for the stain that is. I think I want them black, but not sure now that I see the wood grain looks so nice. I thought about staining them the same color as the staircase railing and the window sills in the living room, but that might look like I am trying too hard... anyways... I'll have to think about it a bit. I have enough time invested in these that a little more time thinking about how I want them finished is justified.


I keep saying I am going to post pics... but I never seem to get around to getting the photos taken... Not that you all haven't seen all this before... but I will get some pics posted by the time it's all said and done.


----------



## technimac

Thanks for your detailed description of applying and trimming your veneer. Before you cut through both layers of veneer to make a seam on the front, check out the "Buckling Seam" process below that I ran across while researching the PVA veneering option. It may help.


The DIY article noted that when joining veneer using the iron-on pvc glue method, the veneer tends to shrink away from the joint due to the heat and moisture.


Here's a quote (sorry, can't remember the source) about using the "Buckle Method" for making veneer joints invisible. But first, you have to cut the veneer with a little overlap at the joint - the amount of overlap will depend on the type (paperbacked or raw) and thickness. A test-run on a piece of scrap first would probably help here.

*Buckling or Compression Veneer Seams*
_This is referred to as a compression joint. To do this, iron one side down completely and then place a ¨û¡± diameter rod about two inches away from the seam under the matching piece.

Now, iron the matching veneer in place along the seam up to the rod. Then remove the rod and using the iron, compress the buckle along the seam. This moves the veneer together creates the tightest seam possible as long as you learn the tricks (don¡¯t wet the veneer too much, etc).

It takes some practice but it is better to err with too much buckle rather than too little. Using an iron and steam can basically get rid of any excess wood.
_


Apparently, cutting through both layers of veneer can work with contact cement, but with the heat and moisture of the "iron on" method, this is the sure way to make the seam end up appearing to be "seamless". I sure hope this helps.


Good luck, Bruce


----------



## Duaner

Thanks for the info Bruce! That sounds like a good idea. I was thinking of doing something like that but was unsure if it would work or not... now I know. Thanks again.


Duane


----------



## technimac

Duaner,

Glad I could be of some help. The rod size to use under the veneer is (one-eighth) 1/8th inch (didn't show in the text).

Have fun!


----------



## Duaner

Bruce:


I veneered the seam on the center channel last night... didn't turn out exactly how I planned, but it worked good enough. I didn't use a big enough roll underneath the veneer and after I was done ironing, the glue shrunk the two pieces away from each other a bit, probably .005" or .010". It is not really of any concern as I centered the seam with the centerline of the tweeter and midrange... so there is only a small gap above, between, and below these speakers. A little carefully placed wood putty makes it dissappear pretty good, and probably totally when the stain is applied.


I will likely have all the veneer glued on and trimmed by the end of the day today. It's turning out pretty decent... not as good as I would like, but good enough for my first time applying veneer. The router with the laminate trimming bit is way faster than the knife method, but I found out you have to take it pretty slow going against the grain or it chips the edge of the veneer slightly. Anyways, despite the few hitches I have run into here and there, this has been a very enjoyable project for me. Another week or so, and I should be all done.


Duane


----------



## moonhawk

We want pics, Huck....


----------



## Duaner

OK, some pics... finally.


Here's all three:


----------



## Duaner

A little closer:


----------



## Duaner

And a quick shot of one of the XOs:


----------



## Duaner

You can see the seam on the front of the center channel because the putty is such a diferent color from the wood... I put the first coat of stain on the boxes last night, and the seam disappears almost completely. You will notice in the closeup of the main speaker that I neglected to put a radius on the edge of the port on the inside... forgot completely about it... oh well.


A few nights of polyeurethaning, and hopefully by the weekend I'll have everything assembled and up and running. I will post some pics once they are all done and setup. Thanks, everyone, for all your help.


Duane


----------



## technimac

Wow! Duane, very nice work on the construction and veneering. I'll bet you can hardly wait to get some good sound coming out of them - good thing polyurethane dries quickly! Have fun.

Bruce


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Very nice work Duane. Now, fire them up! Just so I don't have to go back through all these pages, what type of sub are you using?


----------



## moonhawk

Nice job, Duane...let us know how they sound.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *OK, some pics... finally.
> 
> 
> Here's all three:*



Duane,


Very nicely done. Let us see what they look like stained too. What color stain did you select?


You must feel like a new parent, showing off pics of your offspring...










Joe L.


----------



## Duaner

Thanks for the compliments fellas. They are looking even better with stain and poly... much better than I expected them to look given my lack of experience. My wife even thinks they look nice!! That makes me pretty happy.


Jeff:

I am using an Infinite Baffle design for a subwoofer. It is comprised of 4 15" Dayton IB subs with 2 250 watt plate amps. The subs are mounted in two seperate manifolds in the basement, each of which vents directly into the living room right beside the main speakers. I really like the way these things rattle the drywall off the screws, and hope that they compliment the audax, but I am guessing that I will probably want to get some equalization for them. From the little bit that I listened to the Audax for testing purposes before sealing the enclosures, I found that I mostly enjoy music without the sub... or at least turned way down to just kind of flavor the music abit. Of course, that changes with the type of music I am listening to, but the audax by themselves seem to suit my tastes for just about any type of music. HT is a different story altogether. Crank the sub way up and hold on. The audax, being much "brighter" than the old cerwin vegas, seem to allow high sub volumes while maintaining the integrity of the dialogue during action scenes. It's great. Some scenes during U571 are so powerful that the bass actually blurrs your vision to the point that you start to get sick. I love it!!


Anyways, this has been alot of fun. As excited as I am to use these I am also kind of sorry that the journey is coming to an end... It's been alot of fun researching the project and getting input from you guys. I will have to make it a point to do this again someday. Maybe Christmas this year? Hmmm... I better not get ahead of myself.


Duane


----------



## Duaner

Thanks J.L. it is pretty fun to post pics of the fruits of one's labor. I decided on an English Chestnut stain. It's the same stain that we used on the railing across the loft and down the staircase, (and the window sills, when I get them done.) We thought black would be nice too, but decided it might be neat to have them match the decor. The wood colored stain makes them seem more like they are home made too. Not sure why that is. At any rate, It's not quite as good of a feeling as when my daughter was born, but it definitely feels pretty good.










Duane


----------



## moonhawk

Well, after goading "our Huckleberry" into showing us pics of his handiwork, I thought it was probably about time to post some pics of my finished subs and satellite/surrounds....










Here is a shot of all six...


----------



## moonhawk

This is how they are setup in my living room...I am using two of the surrounds right now for mains, because they sound so much sweeter than my Vandersteen 2-CE's...


Am getting ready to buy materials for my eventual mains and centers. I like these so well I'm going with one of George's (northcreek music) top of the line models for mains and center--these are pretty much bottom of the line , as I wanted to see how they would sound, and they are essentially for surrounds in my system.


The stands and eqpt stand are temporary as well, till I finish the current upgrade cycle...(AKA "cycle of tears").....


----------



## moonhawk

A shot of one of the subs during contruction....shows a bit of the internal bracing.


There are strips which connect the side braces...these are added after the top is attached, or they would be in the way. The box is upside down in this pic.


----------



## moonhawk

A little closer shot of all 6....


----------



## whphel

Great job on those speakers mowhawk.


Send a picture into George with comments and he will add them to his site.


I built a pair of his Rhythem Revolators about a year ago, wait untill you see the crossovers in one of those in real life.


----------



## moonhawk

Thanks, whphel...


I sent him a quick pic last night with a few questions.


How do you like your Rythms?


I'm planning on building the Vision Signatures and Vision-C Signature, which also use the Scan-Speak Revelator tweeter....I'm looking for a huge improvement over the Ikemos, considering the cost is about 10 times as much, and I think the Ikemos sound sweet.


I plan to build the boxes before I order the parts, so I asked George if the plans as posted on his site were current, and parts would still be available if it took me awhile to build them.


I had an issue like that with the subs...I lost the original plans, and used the dimensions from the website....turns out he had changed the drivers, and the cutout for the driver was now 1/4" too large...had to re-do it...










Oh, well, at least I caught it before I attached the bottom panel.


----------



## whphel

How do you like your Rythms?



I love them. Besides the fact that they look great (zebrawood my first veneer job) they sound fantastic. They are never bright very articulate in the highs and the lows. The detail and imaging are some times scary, once there positioned perfectly the speakers disapear and the sound stage is wide, deep and visareal. Some recordings sound so real you get goose bumps. One of the great thing about them is you can play them high and low and the detail throughout the range stays the same at all volume levels. I never tire of them and they make me smile every time I listen to them. Music sounds like music and not an imitation of it.


Excuse my spelling errors.


John G.


----------



## Duaner

That is some fine looking craftsmanship moonhawk. You truly have some talent for sure. Beautiful, just beautiful.


In other news, my audax setup is finally 100% complete. I put the final coat of poly on last night, and tonight I assembled everything and set them up. They turned out very nice for my first project. I didn't get a chance to crank them up tonight because it's past my daughter's bed time, but I plan on cranking them up tomorrow for a few hours. Got some cd's and dvd's ready to go. Hopefully this weekend I will borrow the digital camera from my sister so I can post some pics of them with the stain. I still have to get some speaker stands somewhere too.


One question... totally different topic... I was talking to an old high school buddy tonight who is interested in doing a diy subwoofer kit, but is on a pretty tight budget. Does anyone have any ideas for a sub that would cost around 200 bucks for everything minus the wood and/or veneer for the box? I don't think he would be interested in a sono sub. He has been looking at an advent sub, and I think he could build something himself and get a little more bang for the buck. He has some experience with wood working, so this would be a fun project for him. thanks in advance.


Duane


----------



## moonhawk

John


Sounds good.


I'm leaning toward the visions, but not quite sure. They have a matched center channel, and I already have the two Poseidon subs, so I'm leaning that way,


George Short just mentioned in an email to me that he has the Visions in his home system...Not a bad endorsement.


Incidently, he did say he wants to put up one of my pics on the site.


Made me proud, I must say.


----------



## moonhawk

John...Checked out your speakers on the northcreek site....


Nice!


----------



## technimac

Duane,


If your buddy is looking for a bargain subwoofer, probably the best deal on the block right now is the DAYTON 15" QUATRO SERIES SUBWOOFER 4 OHM (295-560) at $86.35, coupled with the 240W SUBWOOFER AMP (300-804) at $119.77.


The amp has a number of great features such as: a low-pass filter that features 24 dB/octave attenuation (which is superior to other 12 dB/octave filters); A built-in 12 dB/octave high-pass rumble filter; and soft-clip circuitry to prevent amplifier clipping,


Install the Quatro in a 6.5 cu/ft vented cab and she'll go down to around 20hz. Those who have built this sub rave about how suitable it is for both HT and music. Mine's currently under construction.


Both are available from Parts Express.


----------



## Duaner

technimac... how big of a port do you use for an enclosure this size? I am assuming you can change the port tuning if you change the volume of the box? Actually, how about this... where is a good source to find out about port tuning enclosures?


Duane


----------



## whphel




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by moonhawk_
> *John
> 
> 
> Sounds good.
> 
> 
> I'm leaning toward the visions, but not quite sure. They have a matched center channel, and I already have the two Poseidon subs, so I'm leaning that way,
> 
> 
> George Short just mentioned in an email to me that he has the Visions in his home system...Not a bad endorsement.
> 
> 
> Incidently, he did say he wants to put up one of my pics on the site.
> 
> 
> Made me proud, I must say.*



There is a rhythem revolator center channel George just hasent added the plans to the site for them yet.


I dont think you could go wrong either way with the visions or the rhythems. I was going to go with the visions but I decided I wanted just a little more low end, but if you are going to use a sub which you are it doesnt matter they will sound awsome.


Thanks for the comment on my speakers. The picture does'nt do them justice low res elcheapo digital camera with poor lighting.


----------



## moonhawk

Yeah, I tried to send him a better version of the pic he liked, but Outlook Express compressed it mercilessly. I don't have even close to the time or energy to try to figure that out right now.


I'm actually a decent photographer with a real camera...check out my website sometime, if you get a chance.

http://moonhawk.com/ 


(Nothing for sale there, folks, so don't get all in a tizzy)....


----------



## technimac

Hi Duane,

I used Win ISD to determine port size. The sub will be in a corner with a book case attaching to the left side and the amp controls on the right. I chose a slot vent because the Quatro can be stacked on top of it. The unit can then fit nicely in the corner. Height is about 22".

Here's a link to the design (plan view anyway): http://www3.telus.net/public/a6a4371...iles/subby.gif 

I hope it works well, as already it is rating a high SAF.


----------



## technimac

Duane,

In addition to using enclosure volume to determine sub tuning, the amount of stuffing increases the "apparent volume" a sub enclosure. I've attached a blurb on using fiberfill to stuff sub enclosures that includes several valuable tips on how to do this, including varying the amount of stuffing for different sized enclosures. Hope this helps.

Cheers, Bruce


----------



## technimac

Duane,

Here's a link to the original article.
http://web.archive.org/web/200210070...ces/fiberfill/ 

Cheers, Bruce


----------



## selmerakt

I finally finished the front Left and Right speakers... whew! it's taken waaay too long!










I am extremely pleased with the sound quality of these guys... absolutely blows away my old speakers. Much cleaner sound, almost like I've been listening with pillows strapped to the front of the speakers until now.


I've attached an initial picture... I'll try to get some others up soon.


Now I need just need to build my TV stand, speaker stands, and the rest of the speakers... considering it took me about a year to these 2, it may be a while before all this is done!


----------



## selmerakt

another pic...


----------



## moonhawk

Very nice work, selmerakt...


Was it difficult bending the veneer around the radius cross-grain?


----------



## Duaner

Yes, very nice selmerakt. I know the feeling about old speakers and pillows... that is one of the first things I noticed when I first fired up the audax. Very clear and precise in comparison.


I haven't had too much time to listen to my new speakers in the last week or so, but the more I become accustomed to them, the more I like them.


This week I have started work on some speaker stands. I had a bunch of MDF and oak veneer left over from the speakers, so I decided to use it. I cut the mdf into 12 strips, each measuring 6"x32". I then made two 4.5"x6" posts out of these strips by laminating 6 strips together. Next I will sand the strips down perfectly even along the edges, run a 1/2" radius along the 4 vertical edges, and wrap the posts in veneer. I'll then screw and glue a 3/4" solid piece of red oak on top of each post that is slightly larger than the bottom of the speaker... so that it sticks out something like 1/2" all the way around the speaker's base. For the base of the speaker stand... I don't know yet.


Suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Duaner_
> *Yes, very nice selmerakt. I know the feeling about old speakers and pillows... that is one of the first things I noticed when I first fired up the audax. Very clear and precise in comparison.
> 
> 
> I haven't had too much time to listen to my new speakers in the last week or so, but the more I become accustomed to them, the more I like them.
> 
> 
> This week I have started work on some speaker stands. For the base of the speaker stand... I don't know yet.
> 
> 
> Suggestions would be appreciated.*



My stands are very similar, other than instead of a solid post, I made a hollow rectangular post from 4 pieces of MDF and filled the center with unscented, unused








kitty litter (basically, pellets of dried clay)


For the base, I cemented two rectangles of MDF together to make a 1 1/2 inch thick piece, ran my round-over bit around the upper edge, attached the column using long screws through the base. I also used a single piece of 3/4 inch MDF as the top shelf cut to match the bottom contour of the speaker enclosure.

*Here you can see me gluing the base MDF together*










*Here you can see it assembled, but unfinished. I also rounded over the edges of the support post, much like you are going to.*











I made taller versions for the rear channel speakers and finished all the stands in a flat black finish. (I purposely did not want them to reflect light from the screen, so I dyed the raw MDF with the black aniline dye and then used spray flat clear lacquer to finish and seal the surfaces)

*Here are the finished stands... You may need to turn up the brightness on your monitor to see them since they reflect very little light*










You could try a similar base made of MDF and painted gloss black combined with veneered columns. I think that would look wonderful.


Joe L.


----------



## moonhawk

JL...


Do you like having the Center channel under the screen...?(r.e. your picture)


I'm kind of back-and-forth on where to put mine when I build it.


I want to have my receiver in the middle, right under the TV, and the center under that. That means the center will have to be fairly low to avoid having the TV too high.


Does the dialog sound like it's coming from the floor?


----------



## J. L.

Moonhawk,


Since that picture was taken, based on advice from Dennis Erskine, my Audax center channel was moved to a position above the screen. (It has been there over a year) I prefer it there. It sounds more natural there as most actors heads/mouths are visually above the center line of the screen and according to Dennis, it is harder for us humans to localize sounds from above than sounds from below ear level.


This inability to localize is an advantage in the home theater, according to Dennis as our ears and eyes don't send conflicting information (eyes see actor near top of screen, ears hear voice from near floor... conflict results in listening fatigue)


My center channel enclosure is sitting on an angled, shelf that is hanging from chains attached to its corners using eye-bolts and T-nuts from the ceiling. The angle is such that the front of the speaker points downward toward my front row of seats. I also have the center channel "upside down" so that the tweeter is furthest from the ceiling.


I covered the shelf with the same dark brown velor fabric I used for my screen wall to minimize distracting reflections.


Joe L.


----------



## moonhawk

Thanks, JL...










That's an interesting explanation.


----------



## Duaner

J.L.,


Your speakers and your speaker stands look very nice. You have alot of clamps. I have clamp envy.


I see you made the top plate slightly smaller than the speaker base. I think that looks nicer than my idea of making it slightly bigger. It also makes it cheaper, since I can use a 1x10 instead of a 1x12.


What size is the base on your speaker stands? I know you said they are 1.5" thick, but what are the LxW dimensions? Are they pretty stable? How tall are they? Do you think a smaller base would suffice? I was thinking of making the base the same as the top... do you think that's too iffy? I want my stands to be about 30" tall to locate the tweeter slightly above ear level when seated. Like you, I also considered turning my center upside down so that the tweeter would be closer to the tweeters on the mains, but decided it was too heavy to go through all the work of flipping it over.


Duane


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Wow, 100 pages and counting!


----------



## trpltongue

Are there any designs for a floorstanding Audax MTM? I prefer floorstanders, and would like to use the extra volume to increase bass response if possible. Has anyone seen plans like these?


Thanks,


Russell


----------



## selmerakt




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by moonhawk_
> *Very nice work, selmerakt...
> 
> 
> Was it difficult bending the veneer around the radius cross-grain?*



Thanks,

Bending around the radius was pretty easy... 'cause it's not actually wood veneer







I "cheated" and used the Parts Express Cherry Vinyl stuff. It actually looks much better than I thought it would...

Before putting it on, I was concerned that I wouldn't like it, and that I'd end up recovering them with wood veneer later on. But for now at least, I'm happy enough with the result to leave them as is.


----------



## GeorgeHolland




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by moonhawk_
> *John
> 
> 
> Sounds good.
> 
> 
> I'm leaning toward the visions, but not quite sure. They have a matched center channel, and I already have the two Poseidon subs, so I'm leaning that way,
> 
> 
> George Short just mentioned in an email to me that he has the Visions in his home system...Not a bad endorsement.
> 
> 
> Incidently, he did say he wants to put up one of my pics on the site.
> 
> 
> Made me proud, I must say.*



I haven't visited this thread in a long time. It's been a few years since I built a pair of NCM Vision Signatures and the recommended subwoofer at the time, the 18 Leviathan.


I have had the wood for the center channel stacked in my garage ever since and am finally considering building it. The Visions just look and sound too good in my family room to move down into my basement theater.


I've improved both my photography and photography equipment a lot since I took these but here are a few archived pictures of my project.






































George


----------



## moonhawk

VERY nice, George..


Looks like you built yours similar to mine...solid wood front and tops, veneered sides?


Looks like red oak...mine are cherry with maple fronts....


We even have a similar fireplace...










Tell me more how you like your Visions...I'm going to build the Signature version and center channel next...Can't wait.


----------



## GeorgeHolland

Thank you moonhawk. Yes, I used solid red oak for the front and top. I almost used cherry which I would have preferred but it wouldn't have matched the rest of our woodwork and cabinets. I used ¼ oak plywood for the sides; it just seemed easier at the time than attempting veneer which I had never worked with.


I just love the sound; in fact I've been so happy listening to two channel stereo, especially SACD, that I've found little motivation to build the matching center channel which might overwhelm our family room. The sound just never seems to become fatiguing, regardless how loud I play them. I wonder what happened to the Leviathan 18 subwoofer though. It seems like the Thunder is the new choice and it sure is a lot less expensive.


----------



## drguayo

I went with a modified Pi speaker - DIY running high end Eminence speakers/compression drivers. I designed and built a matching centre channel as well.


lots of info at their forum on

www.audioroundtable.com 


I've posted pics of my speakers there as well. Look in the Pi speaker forum and search for username "drguayo".


I've been very happy with my speakers although the urge to start tweaking them/or building a v2 is ever looming.


Craig.


----------



## flappytango

Hi,


browsing the forum because im thinking about building some new fronts and after reading in this thread thought i would post my audax center i built some months ago.


A prblem with this speaker for many is where to put it?


well i made it wider, deeper, and shorter (I think it looks better shorter) to support a 27 inch tv. I kept internal volume the same by doubling up the side walls and using a faux rear wall. The horizontal speaker positioning is to plan but i did squeeze the mid and tweeter closer together on the vertical. it is a heavy beast. i think it sounds great compared to previous jbl 2way center.


----------



## technimac

This crucial Audax HT component is on sale again as a DOTD at PE for $24. Price good until Monday at 5:00pm Eastern ( I think that's the right timezone).


Happy building, Bruce


----------



## grisch

I've had my 3/5 of the audax home theater system built and cranking for almost 2 years now. I love the setup but it's time to get the surround channels. We recently had our third child so I don't have much time on my hands. Therefore, I'm looking to buy used from someone that's already built a pair of either the surrounds or fronts. Mine are finished with a cherry stain over a maple veneer that I doubt I'll ever match unless I build myself but black finish would be fine for the pair I'm looking for. If there's anyone interested in unloading their audax mains or surrounds shoot me an email. Thanks!!!


----------



## BigguyZ

Well my surrounds are finally finished. I need to make stands, however. I'll take some pics and post them- but probably not until next week.


For now I'm curious if anyone has any recomendations on speaker kits ranging around $150-$200 (not incld boxes) or $200-$250 w/ boxes... The audax surrounds would actually fit this criteria, but these are for a friend who will first use these as a stereo mains until she has enough to move them to the surrounds and get better mains....


PE has one kit for pretty cheap- the BR 2. But Zalytron and Madisound have several options as well....


----------



## Calabs




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> *For now I'm curious if anyone has any recomendations on speaker kits ranging around $150-$200 (not incld boxes) or $200-$250 w/ boxes... The audax surrounds would actually fit this criteria, but these are for a friend who will first use these as a stereo mains until she has enough to move them to the surrounds and get better mains....
> 
> 
> PE has one kit for pretty cheap- the BR 2. But Zalytron and Madisound have several options as well....*



BigguyZ - Not sure what your looking for in the way of design, but take a look at this article.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_3_3/v3n3d.html 


It describes the stands I made for my Audax A652s. Very nice and VERY cheap! Good luck!


Ralph


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Bigguy,

I'd say have a look at the PE project showcase. There are some nice projects that I'm sure you've probably already seen, but just in case: http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/index.html


----------



## Duaner

Hi guys... its been a while since I have visited this forum. Glad to see it's still active... there's alot of good info in this thread.


My Audax front sound stage has been completed for a month or better now, and seem to be holding up to the abuse pretty well. I am really getting attached to their sound the more I listen to them. Lately I have not had the time to use them for HT... mostly only music. Sound quality is superb... very accurate... definitely the nicest sounding speakers I have ever owned. They do tend to be fairly directional, which is great for HT, but maybe not the best for music... still better than anything I have ever owned though.


I also managed to complete a pair of speaker stands... maybe I'll find the time to post a few pics of the completed setup in the near future.



Duane


----------



## Duaner

Here's a shot of the entire front soundstage.


----------



## Duaner

Here's a shot from the side that shows how I mounted the giant center channel.


----------



## Duaner

Here's a little closer shot of one of the mains.


----------



## Duaner

And one last shot... I while ago I was bragging about the invisibility of the seam in the veneer on the center channel... so I guess I better pony up a closeup shot of that.


Pay no attention to the fact that I have been spending time and money on speakers when it is apparent that I need paint and carpet! It truly is a sickness.


----------



## J. L.

Paint, carpet... I didn't notice they were missing... I was looking at some great looking speakers. I'll bet you don't notice the carpet and paint are missing either when you turn the lights down low...


Nice work... thanks for the pictures.


Joe L.


----------



## J. L.

Paint, carpet... I didn't notice they were missing... I was looking at some great looking speakers. I'll bet you don't notice the carpet and paint are missing either when you turn the lights down low...


Nice work... thanks for the pictures.


Joe L.


----------



## technimac

Duane,

Very nice job on the veneering. I looked hard and found it almost impossible to find the seam in your close-up photo.

I also love the way you have integrated the Audax HT with your screen. The "floating" center bracket really does the trick.

I would imagine that this arrangement must create quite an impressive soundstage during movies.

Congratulations on a job well done.

Cheers, Bruce


----------



## WGubbe

Duane,


Fantastic job on the veneer. I can't see the seam either.


I am at that stage right now with my Audax set. The surrounds are veneered but not stained yet. Just veneered one front today and will do the other this Friday. Then the piéce de résistance: the center for next week sometime.


I really like how you mounted the center on the wall like that just above your TV. Very nice look from the front. What is that that you have used as the wall bracket? I have searched high and low in my area and have not come with anything that I think could suppoet the weight of the center. Where did you find it and what is the brand name please. I would appreciate it very much if you could help me out.


Thanks, Bill


----------



## Duaner

Wgubbe,


The bracket that holds the center channel is a 13" television stand that I picked up at sears for less than $50 bucks. I think it's rated for something like 60 lbs or so. It doesn't have as much adjustability as some of the more expensive models, and it doesn't have quite the fit and finish either, but it does the job, and you can't see the thing from anywhere in the listening area anyways.


Thanks for all the nice complements on the speakers fellas. It was alot of work putting these babies together, but it was worth every minute. I couldn't be happier with the way these perform.


Speaking of performance... I usually have these speakers located right in the corners of the room, but I slid them right next to the tv for the photo's and discovered that the imaging has improved quite a bit for both music and HT. Music seems less directional and movies seem more realistic. For instance, if someone is talking while walking from one side of the screen to the other, there voice seems to be coming right out of their mouth as opposed to somewhere off screen. The speakers were about 16 feet apart, but now are only around 6'... probably something like 8' would be perfect, but I don't think I want them right in front of the windows.


duane


----------



## WGubbe

Duane,


Thanks for the reply. I never thought to look in Sears at all. I will do so tomorrow.


Regards, Bill


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WGubbe_
> *I never thought to look in Sears at all. I will do so tomorrow.*



Sears shows them on their web site at sears.com available in white or black, they are listed under "TV stands".

And they also offer them as a in store pick-up option. So you might be able to check if your local store has them in stock by using the Sears web site. I'd also think that any major builders supply store, such as Home Depot or Lowes would maybe have them as well.


----------



## hdkhang

@Duane

You make a good point about speaker placement, and it kind of highlights one of the benefits of using a projection system, the larger image is not only more involving visually, but will improve steering of the audio as well since most people have typical seating distances whereby they are more than 5 feet away. I'm not sure of the ideal placement, but I recall reading somewhere that you want the speakers at about 60 degrees or so apart using your seating position as the apex of the angle. This is necessary for separation I believe. Your speakers being 6ft apart would then require you to sit a little over 5 ft away.


Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang


----------



## WGubbe

Duaner, Johnla,


I checked out my local Sears and they have some TV wall mount brackets in stock. They are not exactly the same model as the one used by Duane but they look like they should work. I guess that you have to remove the plate at the front and just screw the bracket into the bottom of the center speaker. They are rated at 95 lb's for the 27 inch TV model. Looks very promising.


Thank you for your help.


Bill


----------



## mh7519

decided, in the interest of $$$, to use the PE vinyl to finish a pair of DaytonIII I'm working on. I built one start-to-finish because its my first project and I wanted to reduce the amount of "gotchas". Everything went pretty well, although I did make a handful of small errors (and only started over once!)


Check out the few pics I remembered to take at
http://photos.yahoo.com/mh7519 


Comments and criticizisms are welcome!


----------



## trpltongue

Mike,


Those look very nice! I'm impressed.


Everyone,


Where and how did you mount your crossovers in the surrounds? I'm doing that last bit this evening and haven't decided where and how I want to mount them yet.


Any help?


Thanks,


Russell


----------



## BigguyZ

Mike- Very nice. I like the two-toned look.


Russel- I used wood screws with plactic stand-offs.


----------



## SVonhof

It's hard to beleive this thread is still going.... It has been quite some time since Ted started it as well as left it for dead. Glad to see there are still some people on here keeping it alive, lots of good info on here, if not too much info.


----------



## BigguyZ

I've referenced this thread every time someone asks about speaker building. I still use it as a tool. I've been laxy lately, but I shall have to add more soo to show off my stands and surrounds.


----------



## hdkhang

I've read through the entire thread and bookmarked all the important links... the thread is invaluable. Just waiting for when I can afford all the tools to get a start on this.


Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang


----------



## ryan94z

Prior to reading this thread I was planning on buying a complete Klipsch setup consisting of RB-35 Fronts, RC-35 Center, & RS-35 Surrounds. Now I am unsure about my decision; it seems I can build all five speakers based on the Audax DIY plans for roughly the same amount. So my question is: has anyone heard both the klipsch speakers and the DIY Audax's? If so which ones sound better? I primary watch DVD's on the home theater and rarely, if ever, listen to music on it. Regardless of the system I end up going with, I plan to build the sub design from the Audax plans to fit into the system. Thanks in advance for any help, I really appreciate it.


----------



## jsalk

ryan94z -


I have not heard the Audax speakers, so I can't comment about them. But I have had the opportunity to build many, many great DIY designs and I can say without hesitation that you get a whole lot more speaker for your money by investing a little time and effort. You will save at least 1/2 and with more expensive designs about 2/3rds. Which means you would normally have to pay at least twice as much for comparable quality if you buy retail.


It is easy to see why. The retail store will not carry a speaker without a 40% margin. Reduce the parts cost further by subtracting the maufacturer's sales, marketing, labor, overhead and profit margin, and you are left with parts costs of around 10- 15% of the retail selling price.


The only issue you need to resolve is to investigate the quality of the DIY design itself. After all, anyone can publish a design. But the good ones are truly world-class. The drivers and crossover design are the most important considerations.


Judging by the overwhealming positive comments regarding the Audax speakers, I would say there is no question but that they would be superior.


- Jim


----------



## BigguyZ

I can echo Jim's comments- but there's also the pride factor. It's a lot cooler to say "I built that" than I "bought that".


----------



## hdkhang

Phew... once again this invaluable thread has been saved from the deeper pages of the DIY forum, it belongs on front page always. I just bought a table saw, going to be getting a router and router table soon... then it'll be a tough decision on what first to build to get my feet wet in this DIY hobby that I've decided to make a start on... the AR.COM 6.5" 2 ways look very promising for so little, but then again so does the MBOW1's, the Northcreek Ikemo's also look promising and come with well regarded documentation concerning cabinet building and wiring in the kit, then there are those new kits by Adire audio using the Extremis midwoofers that are some of the first bookshelves that can do without a sub (20-25hz in room response... drool). Decisions decisions.


Jim I have admired your work from afar... I wish I could say I am striving to reach your level of craftsmanship, but even I know my limits and so won't.










Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang

(Long live this thread)


----------



## moonhawk

I have 4 of the North Creek Ikemo's, and 2 Poseidon Subs...They are my entire 4.2 setup right now, until I build some of the higher end Northcreeks for front and centers, and put my current fronts in the rear.


They are VERY sweet and musical sounding, and one of their least expensive models. I have pics of them all posted earlier in this thread.


----------



## jsalk

hdkhang -


Thanks for the kind words - greatly apprecaited. But since you are just starting out, I thought I would share how I started.


I never worked with wood until I built my first speakers. I had no idea what I was doing. But I liked the experience so much I just kept on doing it. I'm still learning new tricks and trying new techniques all the time. I try to push the envelope, so to speak, with every new project.


One thing I've learned is patience (something I formerly did no have a lot of). You really need to take each step slowly and carefully as little mistakes create a great deal of work farther down the chain. Don't rush any step (cutting. gluing. sanding, veneering or finishing) just to hear your speakers sooner. There will be a great deal of time to enjoy them once they are finished. And the better job you do, the more you will enjoy them.


The net has been a great learning tool as speaker sites and wood-working sites will provide quick answers to any question you have.


Just take your time and you will be surprised by what you can do. But be careful - you'll be hooked!


- Jim


----------



## hdkhang

@Jim


Thanks for sharing...


My father loves building things, it's where i get it from. We've built pretty much everything in our home apart from the original home itself







The most recent being our home theatre room, before that it was the fish tank... I intend to take things slowly, I want to create something that is finished as best as I can, and beyond what I see in stores... at the moment in my mind I'm fascinated by a combination of piano black gloss finish for the front baffles and darkish timber veneering for the sides... I am trying to read up on as much as I can with regards to making a good piano gloss finish... I see there are many ways to achieve this, and I'll probably have to experiment on scrap wood to decide which has the best finish for the least effort and how durable are they... I don't want to put cloth grilles on the speakers as it would be a shame to hide it.


I was going to buy the router and router table addition this weekend, but my younger bro's computer died and so I have to buy him a new one first... I could buy 2-3 routers and router table additions for what it costs to get a nice new comp... but there's no rush, I'll get round to it, I have some other plans in mind to build (e.g. the best damned mini hifi in the world for my mum... but I estimate that to cost about 2000-3000 AUD so it'll wait til I'm more comfortable with building speaker cabinets...)


Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang


----------



## hdkhang

@moonhawk

Thanks for the reminder... I believe I bookmarked it somewhere or downloaded the pics to my comp. In fact I think your Ikemo's cabinets are the shape that I had initially wanted to attempt, but that would require more than just MDF and veneer and so now I'm not so sure, unless I can make routered edges on the sides and top and bottom and the veneer can wrap around them OK... not sure how that would look as it might look artificial, but then again a dark enough colour may be able to hide that... who knows... still speculation at this stage.


Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang


----------



## moonhawk

Have fun whatever you decide!


----------



## Gyvven

I did a lot of lurking and reading before I decided I wanted DIY speakers. I asked a few questions and made my decision. I decided to build a pair of MB20s. This was primarily due to WAF. So for about $100/spkr I gave it a shot. Holy cow! I was simply amazed. I could actually HEAR what they were saying without having the volume cranked up. My music never sounded better. I've never heard this kind of quality ever.


Ok, I admit I rushed it making my cabinets, and a few mistakes were made, but the cabinets were functional if not beautiful. Besides MDF is cheap.


Shortly thereafter I built a sub (another cheapy, Dayton 10" with 50watt amp) for about $60. Again, WAF, but it does the trick and rattles the dishes from across the house and in the basement. I also took my time making a cabinet for a center channel, another MB20, and slowly bought the components.


I now have friends that want to either build their own or have me do it they're so impressed with the results. I have to say I'm addicted and I'll be trying other designs soon. I don't think I'm quite ready for the Audax yet, money and I'd like to be able to do the cabs right, but maybe some MBOW1s.


----------



## Choots

I agree with Gyvven....this is the best thread going!


I'm a new member who has been lurking around for many months. Usually when I see threads that hit the 1000 or 1500 post level, I go ...ugh. But this has been a joy to read! What's been good is not only following people sharing their experiences constructing the same type of speakers, but watching them grow and build confidence, then seeing the final product! It's what makes this thread so great for me.


I'm a total tweaker, music freak, audio junkie, electronics geek, and have many years of woodworking experience, so when I saw this thread, I knew it was my destiny to someday tackle this as a project. I recently got my AE700 pj, so now it's time to get going on the audio. Now I just have to decide whether to go the Audax route or look at other MTM designs. I'm interested the Audax, GR Research MTMs, and Dayton IIIs. I do like the slightly larger Audax center, but I'm not sure I have room for it.


I really like the flat black finish that Joe put on his speakers, but I also love a finish I've been putting on furniture in my basement lately (a deep cherry red mahogany/rosewood in satin), so that will be a tough choice.


Anyway, I'd like to construct a 12" sub, 2 fronts, and a center channel by the end of the summer. I think I'll be posting my design selection, construction, and finishing progress here, so as to keep this thread alive, and attempt to give back to the place that really made me an AVS Forum member.


Thanks to Joe and so many others who inspired me, I'm hooked and I haven't even started!


- Peter

(Determined to keep this thread alive!)


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Choots* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I agree with Gyvven....this is the best thread going!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks to Joe and so many others who inspired me, I'm hooked and I haven't even started!
> 
> 
> - Peter
> 
> (Determined to keep this thread alive!)



I think its time to show what I've been planning as the next "upgrade" to my theater.


A bit back in this thread you can find where Jeff Hovis and I both built similar 260 liter sonosubs. Both stood roughly 6 1/2 feet tall and used somewhat similar drivers. Now, our subwoofers are probably better than 99% of what most folks have ever heard, but I wanted a bit more... we often listen to movies at reference levels and at infrasonic frequencies (below 20 Hz) my current sub has a harder time keeping up with today's more aggressive DVD soundtracks. (I have to adjust the LFE channel level downward, otherwise, the sub sounds like it is bottoming out.)


I took advantage of the current closeout prices at Ascendant Audio and purchased a pair of Avalanche 18" drivers. Between them I should have over 13 liters of displacement. (current sub is about 2.5 liters displacement) In other words, when my project is complete I should have the equivalent of 5 of my current subwoofers.


Now, my wife is very understanding, but she might question 5 sonosubs in the room. She made the comment "can't you build it into the stage?" I answered, interesting idea... done right, nobody will know a monster subwoofer lives inside the stage.


So... here goes... my general idea is to make the stage bigger and use it as a pair of sealed enclosures, each somewhere around 13 cubic feet internal volume, one for each of the two drivers I ordered. I elected to used sealed enclosures rather than ported this time so as not to have to deal with any issues of the sub "unloading" below the tuning frequency.


Wish me luck... I purchased most of the wood yesterday and started on the curved front section. I plan on laminating several 1/4 inch plywood layers to form a 3/4 inch thick front surface.


Joe L.

*Crude 3D rendering of proposed proscenium subwoofer*


----------



## BigguyZ

Choots- If you need any help, have any questions, or want to hear the Audax speakers before you get them, I live in Minneapolis.


----------



## Johnla

I think J.L. is almost planning to turn his entire house, into one big butt kicker with that sub setup...


----------



## moonhawk

Wow JL...


Just a thought-(rare occurence here)- but you may want to go thicker than 3/4 on that puppy!


----------



## moonhawk

P.S.


You sure that thing's legal?.....


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow JL...
> 
> 
> Just a thought-(rare occurence here)- but you may want to go thicker than 3/4 on that puppy!



I can always add another layer of wood, but the enclosure already will weigh over 250 lbs before I add the drivers. The drivers weigh 42 lbs each, so mounting them in the enclosure will bring the weight up to about 295 lbs.


I don't think I'll have much problems with the front of the proscenium/stage as it is circular in its shape and like the walls of my current sonosub, will not vibrate easily. I think have more to worry about with the flat surfaces. To help there, I'll use a lot of internal braces. (yup... more weight)


One of the reasons I am building it as a pair of sealed subs is that I can physically build the enclosure as two separate sealed enclosures, carry them down the basement stairs into the theater, and then bolt them together and mount the drivers. No way I'd be able to move it very far when fully assembled. I'm just not that strong.


I'll keep your suggestion in mind, but the entire stage has to fit beneath my screen so I need to plan carefully... I only have about three inches clearance as it is currently designed.


Joe L.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> P.S.
> 
> 
> You sure that thing's legal?.....



Ya know.. I guess it depends on how much power I apply to the drivers. From what I understand, I'll need to keep it under 500 watts per driver to keep them within their excursion limits in this large an enclosure

















Nearest neighbor's house is over 800 feet away, so they are not an issue. Again, this project is not to get much louder bass, but to easily handle lower bass, below 15-20Hz. (I can't hear much below 20Hz, but it sure makes a difference if the sub handles it cleanly and you can definitely feel it)


Since I don't currently have a 1000 watt sub-amplifier I'm safe... for now... besides, if I do this right, nobody will suspect the monster that lives under the stage in my theater... until it wakes...


Joe L.


----------



## moonhawk

Cool, Joe


Keep us posted


----------



## SVonhof

Joe, I would agree that you will probably want more than 3/4" thickness on that thing. I know you say it is a curved surface, but don't think of it as curved and vibration free like the sonotube, since it is not a round tube that is a complete circle. I would go with at least one more thickness and brace it as well, since you are putting some drivers in there capable of blowing your seams apart. You remember what happened with your sono-sub when it blew up?










One more comment, make sure the area where the air will come out is large enough to handle the output of the driver.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Joe, I would agree that you will probably want more than 3/4" thickness on that thing. I know you say it is a curved surface, but don't think of it as curved and vibration free like the sonotube, since it is not a round tube that is a complete circle. I would go with at least one more thickness and brace it as well, since you are putting some drivers in there capable of blowing your seams apart. You remember what happened with your sono-sub when it blew up?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One more comment, make sure the area where the air will come out is large enough to handle the output of the driver.



Scott,


Good points. I'm not limited to the number of laminations on the front of the stage. I agree... everything must be fitted perfectly and braced well.


I know the plenum will be under stress, it must be very well braced and as big as I can make it to handle the output. As you said, I already had to rebuild my current sonosub end-cap when a Klingon battlecruiser blasted it. This one has to be even stronger.


Joe L.


----------



## mh7519

Joe, the folks over at the "Cult" will definitely be interested and may be able to offer some input (just watch the drooling!!) on your design.

http://f20.parsimony.net/forum36475/index.htm


----------



## SVonhof

But Joe's design isn't an IB design, is it?!


----------



## BigguyZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But Joe's design isn't an IB design, is it?!



Doesn't look like it. I myself was going to suggest Joe may want to go that route for clean deep bass.


----------



## SVonhof

But he already bought the drivers and if they are not meant for IB, they may not work well in an open box. It would be a good idea to check the parameters though...


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But he already bought the drivers and if they are not meant for IB, they may not work well in an open box. It would be a good idea to check the parameters though...



The Avalanche 18" drivers would work very well in an IB, and many are doing do... and if I ever move into a different house I could use the two in an IB. Currently the only adjacent space is upward, and that is our guest bedroom, bathroom, and main entrance hallway.


I don't think I need to ask my wife of her thoughts about using it as the adjacent IB space... I think I know the answer. Fortunatly, she is very understanding of the design goal of the new proscenium/stage sub enclosure and can't wait to watch "The Haunting" when the new sub is completed.


The enclosure size I'm using isn't close to IB size at 26^3 feet, so I've been hesitant about posting about my project on the "cult" message board since it really isn't an IB sub. I might politely ask if I could get their input... perhaps when I get home tonight.


Joe L.


----------



## Choots

Thanks BigguyZ...I definitely will want to chat with you about my direction and the Audax speakers. Getting a chance to hear them would be great! I'll take all the help I can get at this point!


Shall I PM you with my contact info?


----------



## Choots

omg JL, that design looks like it will shake your house loose from it's foundation!


FYI, you can get a flexible/bendable plywood that has it's grain running all in the same direction. You might want to take a look at that as an option to avoid having to build up so many layers to get the thickness you are looking for. I'm pretty sure it could handle the curve radius you've designed.


Can you tell us what application you used to do that 3D design?


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Choots* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> omg JL, that design looks like it will shake your house loose from it's foundation!
> 
> 
> FYI, you can get a flexible/bendable plywood that has it's grain running all in the same direction. You might want to take a look at that as an option to avoid having to build up so many layers to get the thickness you are looking for. I'm pretty sure it could handle the curve radius you've designed.
> 
> 
> Can you tell us what application you used to do that 3D design?



Thanks for the info on the "bendable plywood" but I've already got the 1/4 inch stuff I need.


My wife did ask that I not crack the concrete floor (but she was only kidding... I think...)


I used a 3D graphical package called "blender" to do the drawing. It can do far more than I've done, including full animation, as in Pixar or Disney. I am very slowly learning how to use its most basic of capabilities and have not yet attempted to associate textures with the 3D image or to create my own animation.


Blender is a free program to download at www.blender.org and there are lots of tutorials on the web for it... including some video tutorials. Be forewarned, there is a steep learning curve. Do/watch the tutorials and learn gradually and you will see how to approach creating an image. It has really helped with this project in that it let me do a lot of planning before I started making sawdust.


Joe L.


----------



## hdkhang

Not that I know enough on the topic to be commenting, but what made you choose the orientation of the drivers? Is there a sonic benefit or did you just go for aesthetics? The closeout deal on the avalanche 18s was so tempting, they are definitely the best bang for the buck in terms of low and loud bass (low milliHenry rating also makes them very musical for their size, even more so than a few 15s out there).


I understand the desire to keep them as pairs in order to make for easier transportation, but the beauty of dual woofers is in their ability to be placed in alignments like Push Pull to cancel out certain harmonics (whether that benefit is immediately noticeable and therefore worthwhile is different altogether as I have not experienced it or read enough on the subject).


When I first started thinking about upgrading my sub in my system (still thinking to this day eheheh) I wanted a big sub to sit beneath my projection screen, my center would be done away with and I'd be using twin Ava 18's in push pull (somehow... ehehe didn't figure out just how yet) powered by Adire's sub amps with built in linkwitz transform circuitry to extend system response and be able to select system Q. Then I started thinking about IBs, reading this stuff is very fun so I don't mind that I don't have a killer sub just yet.


Hope all goes well, you may also want to post in the subwoofer and bass transducers forum, they are real bass nuts over there and many of them have DIY subs. Guys like Ed Mullen, Mark Seaton etc. might have some comments in regards to the design choices.


Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang


----------



## Choots

Thanks for the info Joe. I went to the site, but it must be down. Google lists the site at www.blender3d.com , but that link doesn't work either.


----------



## SVonhof

hdkhang, I am guessing that Joe decided to mount the drivers that way to save on space. If he were to use a push-pull style (isobaric) mounting, he would have a box half the size, but would have to figure out how to mount the drivers in a way that would not make the box too large. He did say it will be a close fit between the box and the screen with the center channel on it.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Wow!!! I don't come around here for a few months and when I do, I find the following:

1. the site looks different

2. this thread is STILL going!

3. JL has now designed some new nuclear powered subwoofer w/the help of NASA.


It's funny, I was looking at the extra 6' section of 18" sonotube in my garage just yesterday. I think, maybe, I'll just build another sonosub and forget about my plan to go IB. I come here and find that I've already been left behind







JL keep up the good work and keep the updates coming.


----------



## Johnla

For something a bit different, check out this "Death Star" Subwoofer that someone in the UK made.

http://www.objectreality.co.uk/DeathStarPlans/


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow!!! I don't come around here for a few months and when I do, I find the following:
> 
> 1. the site looks different
> 
> 2. this thread is STILL going!
> 
> 3. JL has now designed some new nuclear powered subwoofer w/the help of NASA.
> 
> 
> It's funny, I was looking at the extra 6' section of 18" sonotube in my garage just yesterday. I think, maybe, I'll just build another sonosub and forget about my plan to go IB. I come here and find that I've already been left behind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JL keep up the good work and keep the updates coming.



Jeff,

You could go IB sub, and then I'd be left behind.


I traded a few messages with the guru's on the IB cult forum and think I'm going to face both drivers forward as in the following 3D illustration.










The biggest issue with the prior design was that the opening in the front of the sub was only about 1/2 the square inches of the combined surface area of the drivers cones. Although either design would work I think the sound quality will be a little better with this latest design.


hdkhang,

I was trying to keep the vibration of the enclosure at a minimum by having the drivers move in opposite directions. Unfortunately, that caused other issues in the design. I don't think a 300 lb sub will move across the carpet on its own very fast anyway from vibration... but who knows??? I am limited in the enclosure height to 16" so it will fit under my screen in my theater, therefore, the drivers must be mounted on angled baffles.


Scott, The center channel will not be resting on the sub. My center channel has been mounted over the screen for about a year now.


Pictures will follow as construction progresses...


Choots,

blender.org and blender3d.com are in the process of combining their web-sites. With any luck they will be back up in a few days.


Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof

O.K., that death star is pretty cool! I don't think I would have used the driver they chose though, since it has the blue on the dust cover. I would have gone with one that is all black...


And J.L., I do remember that your center is above the screen, just forgot at the time. I think you will be happier with the new design as it will not load the drivers against each other and will allow them to breathe easier.


btw:









I did this in about 15 minutes on Pro-Engineer. Probably a much steeper learning curve than blender, but it's what I do my work in. I did it as one part, but I would normally do it as individual parts like you would have before assembly, so you can make simple drawings of every part as well as do interferance checks and such. Makes life easier as long as you can measure accuratly with a tape measure when you are using the table saw. Then, label each peice according to the drawing and assemble.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I did this in about 15 minutes on Pro-Engineer. Probably a much steeper learning curve than blender, but it's what I do my work in. I did it as one part, but I would normally do it as individual parts like you would have before assembly, so you can make simple drawings of every part as well as do interferance checks and such. Makes life easier as long as you can measure accuratly with a tape measure when you are using the table saw. Then, label each peice according to the drawing and assemble.



Wow... thanks. Great rendering of my latest proposed design.

That is very close to my idea of how to deal with the internal bracing.

15 minutes... I'm very impressed..

(just goes to show you how little I know about 3D rendering. Took me about a week of playing for a hour or so in the evenings before I could even render the curved front in 3D.)


Joe L.


----------



## BigguyZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Choots* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks BigguyZ...I definitely will want to chat with you about my direction and the Audax speakers. Getting a chance to hear them would be great! I'll take all the help I can get at this point!
> 
> 
> Shall I PM you with my contact info?




Yeah, PM me and I'll send you my RL email.


----------



## BigguyZ

OK- So I finally got my radial arm saw and the table it's attached to square, and I bought a table saw recently as well. I'm going to finish my Audax project, but during my free time I'm looking at other speakers I can build.


Initially, I was looking at building a complete speaker set and sell it for the cost to build it online. You know, just for the fun of the hobby (I cann't afford to build 10 sets of speakers and keep them all). But now I'm thinking if it would be possible to just build the cabinets for an established DIY speaker, and just sell the enclosure online... That way I won't have to invest in the most expensive part (the drivers/ crossovers), just the MDF and veneer.


What do you guys think, and do you have any suggestions as to what model?


----------



## pen25

i can see this as a market. I have thought about the same thing.. cept i am building me a DIY cnc routerload the plans and start cutting.. I got the idea from the htpc face some guy made for his htpc and a cnc router.. found a website on people who have built there own and free plans..


----------



## nameless33

Wow that's some subwoofer project. I'd suggest a redesign using some non-resonant concrete sewer pipes for the main bodies










All joking aside, I'm looking forward to how this works out.


----------



## BrianMat

The scary thing is, Joe's current sonosub is no slouch at all. I just put myself another $215 in the hole getting a 15" MKIII from PE, so hopefully I can start to work on my own little bit of LFE goodness this weekend.


It's amazing how your perspective changes once you go from "ok" 10's to "OMG" 15's. In a few short weeks I figure there will be some home theater clauses in our covenants just to cover anything else I may end up pulling










Next payday will be the shakers...then the green glue...then the...does it really ever end?


I will say this much though - you can graph, plot, and model all you want, but until you feel the full effects I don't think you can fully appreciate what some good speaker building can do. I've been reading about this stuff for a while here at AVS, but this was the first time I really had a chance to see things in action rather than in print.


Ok, so to finally make a real contribution to AVS (for a change), here is what I am making as a circle cutting jig. I found it online a while back but never had much use for it until now.

http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/2004/10/08/sn/ 


I added a wing nut to the outside of the jig instead of a hex nut. Makes it a little easier to fine tune it.


I got everything from Home Depot except for the scrap wood. In all, it cost less than $10 in materials for all of the parts and is very versatile. Sure, it can't cut very small holes, but you can make this as large as you want. Right now my setup is using a 24" piece of 5/8" threaded rod. I doubt I will be cutting any speaker holes larger than that anytime soon.


----------



## Davespectral

Hey if your able to cut 48" holes.....it's good to plan for the future!
















Dave


----------



## Jeff Hovis

BrianMat,

That looks like a nice circle jig plan. I have a Jasper jig that I bought for smaller holes and for my large sonosub disks, I made one. Here is a picture of my jasper jig and my diy jig:
http://europa70.tripod.com/diy_sonosub003.htm and here:
http://europa70.tripod.com/diy_sonosub004.htm


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davespectral* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey if your able to cut 48" holes.....it's good to plan for the future!



Hey, with some people ya just never can tell if even 48" is gonna be big enuff.......


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnla* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey, with some people ya just never can tell if even 48" is gonna be big enuff.......






























Figured a few smilies from one of the other forums I frequent would be fitting here.


----------



## Davespectral




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnla* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey, with some people ya just never can tell if even 48" is gonna be big enuff.......



Hey... I was only kidding, but now I'm not. That looks like the Home Depot 1-A!







PLEASE tell me where you got that link. that is really awesome. It looks like he might have "cone breakup problems" though. LOL!!


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davespectral* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> PLEASE tell me where you got that link. that is really awesome.



I found it here.

http://www.soundimage.dk/Different-col/Extreme.htm 


But that is just a wee little baby sub, when compared to this horn based sub that's built into/under a entire floor..

http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnla* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I found it here.
> 
> http://www.soundimage.dk/Different-col/Extreme.htm
> 
> 
> But that is just a wee little baby sub, when compared to this horn based sub that's built into/under a entire floor..
> 
> http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm



And you guys were making fun of my "modest" sub....


Brian,

Nice circle jig plans... very easy to build and adjust.


Joe L.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrianMat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The scary thing is, Joe's current sonosub is no slouch at all.
> 
> 
> ...snip..
> 
> 
> It's amazing how your perspective changes once you go from "ok" 10's to "OMG" 15's.
> 
> 
> ...snip...
> 
> 
> I will say this much though - you can graph, plot, and model all you want, but until you feel the full effects I don't think you can fully appreciate what some good speaker building can do. I've been reading about this stuff for a while here at AVS, but this was the first time I really had a chance to see things in action rather than in print.



I gave Brian a demo of my theater this weekend. DIY Audax HT speakers, DIY 260L Tempest sonosub, and Aura non-pro shakers, 7.1 sound at 125+ watts per channel, most of it previously described in this thread as I was building it. We did have the volume up near "reference" levels, but not so loud that it was difficult to talk during most of the "dialog" scenes.


Brian was primarily interested in the sonosub as he was thinking of building one. The Dayton Titanic driver he has since ordered is somewhat similar in size and displacement to my Adire Tempest driver. We didn't talk much about my Audax HT speakers other than that he liked their "large" sound...


I started with the subtle bass undertones of the initial scenes of "The Italian Job" since they showed off the "musical" ability of the sonosub. Brian commented that it was not "boomy" at all, but rather very natural sounding.


Brian instinctively grabbed for the armrests of his chair when an "unexpected" explosion occurred a few minutes later in that same scene as the thieves removed a safe from a building. As he said: "hard to plot or model..."


His comment above, about "feeling the full effects," is a nice compliment about the total immersive effect of seeing, hearing, and feeling the action when watching a movie in my theater.


Joe L.


----------



## DonoMan

Ordered the drivers for my first DIY speaker build... 2 Adire Audio Extremis midwoofers (for woofer duty only), 2 CSS WR125S 4.5" full-ranges for midrange duty, 2 Vifa XT19 tweets... Now I need to order a bunch of parts for the amps as these are going to be active. My crossover stuff will use Burr-Brown OPA134 opamps (which I have like 30 of at the moment), Extremis will use Burr-Brown OPA549s, WR125S will have a National Semiconductor LM3875, XT19 will probably get an LM4700. Total power should end up around 120W (+/- maybe 10W) per speaker.


What I still need to order at the moment is transformers and mostly resistors.


P.S. for sub drivers, try Ascendant Audio .


----------



## Jeff Hovis

You guys and your subwoofers are killing me! I'm always getting annoyed when a car load of "punks" is behind me w/their subwoofers cracking the pavement. Now, I'm wanting to upgrade my HT sub again. I still have over 6ft of 18" sonotube left. I think I'll just build another sonosub. But...do I want to build one w/dual drivers or just drop in another Dayton 15 or Adire? I'll also have to equalize them and I guess I can do that w/the BFD I've never used. Correct?


For those of you who've seen pics of our HT, you may remember the "alley". That was a small space between the drywall and concrete basement wall that runs down one side of the HT. My plan was to close off a section of that and have a 2'W x 10'L subwoofer enclosure using 3 IB woofs. But my basement design did such a good job of using all the space left us little storage area and guess what happened to the "alley"? It's packed with Christmas decorations.


----------



## SVonhof

Jeff, this is a whole different ballgame than the punks in the cars. First off, as you know, we don't just play the music with only bass, since it is about the complete experience. Second, we normally buy quality components and actually take into consideration the measurments of the drivers and how they are going to be applied. How many punks in their cars take the time to make sure the box is exactly the correct size for the driver?! In our case, we need to make things correctly to take advantage of the complete driver ability instead of just relying on the cabin of the car to help out with the lacking box.


BTW, I used to have two 8" woofers in the back of my old Datsun 310GX...


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Scott,

Since I was a teenager back in the 70s, the speaker of choice was the Jensen Triax connected to a Craig or Pioneer radio/tape player and yes it was 8-track. Also, I remember the old Datsuns. A good friend had a 710. In college I moved up to an Alpine system in my 1975 Monza Spider. That little car had a V8! BTW, we moved last July and I had to leave the wine cellar behind. I now have a freestanding Vinotemp.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But my basement design did such a good job of using all the space left us little storage area and guess what happened to the "alley"? It's packed with Christmas decorations.



Jeff,

I know you just moved, but you apparently need the same kind of house I need.


1000 square feet of living space

3000 square feet of attic space (Holiday decorations go here)

3000 square feet of basement space (Theater goes here)


Now... all you need is a realtor willing to work with you and find that elusive property.


Seriously, a second DVC driver in the other 6 foot section of sonotube would do wonders... so would putting the BFD in place to equalize them. (I would try putting the BFD in place anyway... while you wait for the new driver to be delivered by the UPS guy)


Oh yes... I had a Datsun 260Z (wife worked for a Datsun dealer back then) and the 8 track was in the glove box with a remote volume control and track change button on the console.

Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof

Jeff, I didn't know you moved. Do you have a web site with your new house on there?


PM me or send me an e-mail at: [email protected] 


BTW, opened a 1994 Grgich Cab recently, man was that nice! The cork could have gone another 10 years, but I don't think I could have waited that long! We have one more of those, and will wait to open it another year or so.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

JL,

I think I'll do just that and order another DVC. The price is right and I already have a tube. As far as that house plan you mentioned: I'm trying to visualize that







I'm not sure about the 260Z, but I know the240Z is a highly sought after vehicle and they bring a nice buck these days.


Scott,

I moved July 30, 2004. I now have real dedicated HT instead of a media room. All equipment except speakers was upgraded. Here are some pics: http://europa70.tripod.com//hovisht001.htm


----------



## hdkhang

@Dan.D


Wow, you sound like you really know the electronics side of thing... any resources you can share with us? I really like the idea of active crossovers and multiple power amps, less power loss and better dynamics is always a bonus.


Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey guys, since we've been on the subject of subwoofers lately: I got a PE sales catalog yesterday and on the back cover is the Titanic MKIII on sale for $25 off regular. Also, they have BASH amps on sale...probably shouldn't post prices. Are these BASH amps any good?


johnla, are you around? I know you built one of their MKIII kits. Are you still liking it?


----------



## SVonhof

Jeff, nice job on the new theater! So, that little space, if nothing else, you could add another sub back there and still allow storage of all the Christmas decorations as well. Just design something that will be large enough to act as a wall so your alley is just shorter than it is now...


Also, you have two pics on your site with other peoples equipment racks, but you don't show yours? Are you still working on it? Also, did you have to do anything about the screen material to make sure you could not see the frame for it?


----------



## SVonhof

Jeff, I have the two of the 10" Titanic kits using the MK series Dayton drivers and they are great. I have not had a single problem except for the occational (I assume) ground loop hum turning the sub amp on. I don't know why it will do this sometimes and not others...


----------



## DonoMan

 http://www.linkwitzlab.com is a great resource for active filters, but it won't teach you basic electronics.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I got a PE sales catalog yesterday and on the back cover is the Titanic MKIII on sale for $25 off regular. Also, they have BASH amps on sale...probably shouldn't post prices. Are these BASH amps any good?
> 
> 
> johnla, are you around? I know you built one of their MKIII kits. Are you still liking it?



Yep, I'm still here. And still liking the 15" MKIII. But I'm not so sure that one of those 500w BASH amps is really enough to fully power a 15" Titanic if you tend to like to push it.

I think the general consensus on the 15" MKIII is, that 500watts is the very minimum amount you should use to power it, and that using 1000watts is a whole lot better. And that if you go with a ported or non-ported design with them, also has a lot to do with how much power you should have.


Granted, normally pretty much every one would always take the bigger amp over a smaller one if they had the choice and extra money to do so. But it's a tough call though, with the 1000watts costing almost twice the amount of the 500watt.


If you are not in a big rush, you may want to wait awhile.

Rumor has it, that Parts Express may soon have some new models of Subwoofers coming out, that will be marketed under their reference series line of speaker drivers. And if they turn out anything like the current Reference series of drivers, they should end up being real winners.


----------



## DonoMan

That amp is just fine. You should be able to hit 115-120dB with it + that sub.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Scott,

Thanks for taking a look. For the screen frame, I removed the vertical brace in the center and added a border to the outer frame. It's a little flimsy now, but once mounted it doesn't matter. I used keyhole brackets on the four corners and you just lift up and pull out. It's better to have a helper now since the center brace is gone. The black panel to the right is removable and I can get to all the speakers from there. I'm very happy with the Dazian acoustically transparent fabric.


My rack is actually built inside the "alley" I guess I should take a picture of it.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Jeff, nice job on the new theater! So, that little space, if nothing else, you could add another sub back there and still allow storage of all the Christmas decorations as well. Just design something that will be large enough to act as a wall so your alley is just shorter than it is now...
> 
> 
> Also, you have two pics on your site with other peoples equipment racks, but you don't show yours? Are you still working on it? Also, did you have to do anything about the screen material to make sure you could not see the frame for it?


----------



## BrianMat

OMG - I totally forgot how much of a PITA it can be to work with MDF. That dust is almost as bad as drywall.


Anyway, day 1 of the Titanic MKIII sub is in the books. I was grabbing some stuff from my storage shed and I had some 3/4" MDF, but I also had some Slatron from a Sears pool table. Long story short - they send the wrong rail kit and sent a second top instead of the rails. This stuff is nice and dense - also 3/4". Heavy as can be as well.


I cut 4 18" caps and one 21" cap for the base. I plan to do some layout of the next cut holes for the port and the sub. I already made the first boneheaded mistake. When I ordered the parts from Parts Express I picked up a round binding post set. Well, a 15" sub in an 18" circle of MDF doesn't leave much room for the binding posts.


I guess I need to make another order with PE unless I can find somewhere locally that would have some quality binding posts.


I ran the setup through BassBox and it has me building doing the following:


Width: 18"

Height: 52.83"

Vb: 206.5l

Fb: 18.53Hz

F3: 22.83Hz


Port:

Dv: 6"

Lv: 27.4"


At least I have enough MDF still in storage to make at least two more subs - so I have some room for oopsies.


Hopefully by next weekend I will have a functional - although FUGLY sub to play around with.


Ok, so much for that, now for a question:


I have an old KLH 8" subwoofer box with a small amp. When I tested it a got a loud thud and then a buzzing sound. Looks like the speaker is fried, but is there an easy way to tell if the amp is still good? It's a tiny amp, but enough to run a little power to the sub for testing purposes. I just want to make sure my amp doesn't kill my MKIII (if that is possible). I don't know if just sticking a multi-meter to it will be able to tell if there is a problem or not. The fuse never blew and it's not overheating - so it seems fine. But, it's a KLH, so you never know what part fell apart first










Eventually I'll pick up a PE sub amp or a Crown 402b for this, but for now I just need to run it through the paces when it is complete.


My neighbors are SOOOOOO going to hate me


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrianMat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I ran the setup through BassBox and it has me building doing the following:
> 
> 
> Width: 18"
> 
> Height: 52.83"
> 
> Vb: 206.5l
> 
> Fb: 18.53Hz
> 
> F3: 22.83Hz
> 
> 
> Port:
> 
> Dv: 6"
> 
> Lv: 27.4"
> 
> 
> At least I have enough MDF still in storage to make at least two more subs - so I have some room for oopsies.
> 
> 
> Hopefully by next weekend I will have a functional - although FUGLY sub to play around with.



Don't get addicted to MDF dust...







In fact, use a mask or respirator, the dust is not real good for your lungs. Can't wait till you report back on how it sounds.


> Quote:
> Ok, so much for that, now for a question:
> 
> 
> I have an old KLH 8" subwoofer box with a small amp. When I tested it a got a loud thud and then a buzzing sound. Looks like the speaker is fried, but is there an easy way to tell if the amp is still good? It's a tiny amp, but enough to run a little power to the sub for testing purposes. I just want to make sure my amp doesn't kill my MKIII (if that is possible). I don't know if just sticking a multi-meter to it will be able to tell if there is a problem or not. The fuse never blew and it's not overheating - so it seems fine. But, it's a KLH, so you never know what part fell apart first



If the sub made a loud "thud" odds are it is not "fried"


Before you put your new MKIII on it, put a multimeter across the speaker outputs of the amplifier (while leaving it connected to the original speaker). If you measure much more than a volt of DC, the amp needs service and you should not use it on your new driver.



> Quote:
> My neighbors are SOOOOOO going to hate me



Good thing they don't know me...







I might not be their favorite either... after encouraging your "addiction" to DIY sonosub construction.


Joe L.


----------



## dsl1

I'm about to start building my speakers and have a few questions.


I've read as much as I can trying to figure everything out.


Audax system with a sonosub seems like the way to go.


Now to the questions.


1. How does one have the driver holes be the same in both sheets of MDF in the front. Does one glue them together then use the router to take both out? Or do them apart and hope you measured right and it works out?


2. For the sonosub is the interior 18in across or is it 18in to the outside? I'm assuming I need 18in circle and a 15in hole in the middle of that.


3. J. L. did you wrap the inside of the sonotub with insulation or just the port?


4. For the 6.5in drivers I make a 6.5in hole but how big do I make the 1/4in drop so they are flush with the front of the speaker? For the 5.25in driver the instructions say to make a 4.375 in hole and have the drop be all the way out to 5.625in. Anyhow i'm confused.


Thats it for now. I'll buy a router and MDF today/tomorrow.


Can't wait to get started.


----------



## SVonhof

dsl1, first things first, get the drivers in hand if you don't have them already, since I am sure you don't cut a 6.5" hole for a 6.5" driver....


----------



## BrianMat

Well, I have not yet moved to cutting the speaker holes as of yet, but here are a few things I have seen from other builders.


1. You can glue the plates together and drill the pilot hole through the boards. You cut one half, flip it over, and finish on the other side.


2. You can stack them unglued and drill a pilot hole through all pieces. Cut the holes for each piece and then assemble.


I like approach number 2 only because it give me more internal clamping space. I am not sure if it really makes much of a difference either way, but I like the idea of being able to put some good clamping pressure on all exposed edges.


Of course, I am still just sitting here with 5 disks of MDF, a compass, and a pencil







I am probably being totally anal on the layout of this, but I am trying my best to measure 20 times and cut once.


The one tricky bit I came across was marking the cut line for the sonotube. Allow be to be Captain Obvious (tm) and relay a tip I came across:


use either taped copy paper/banner paper or wrapping paper as a guide (really, any long paper with parallel edges will work). Wrap around the tube so all edges are flush with each other with a bit over overlap - 1 1/2 to 2 layers. Make sure the paper is tight against the tube and tape it to hold it. This edge of the paper gives a square reference to the tube and you can then draw your cut line following this edge. This is basically what people use for making clean cuts in building model rockets, but just on a larger scale.


On a related construction note: is it ok to seal as much as possible with silicone caulk? I am trying to be sure I get a good seal around all edges. It there any other sealer/adhesive which may be better?


----------



## SVonhof

I would think that if you can glue (laminate) the two peices of wood (mdf) together before drilling any holes or even cutting to finished size, would give you the best end product. That way, everything lines up 100%.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would think that if you can glue (laminate) the two peices of wood (mdf) together before drilling any holes or even cutting to finished size, would give you the best end product. That way, everything lines up 100%.



I made the driver and port holes in the inner layer of my end-caps, then attached the outer layer(s) to the inner (prior to making any hole in the outer layer)


Then... I made a 3/4 inch hole (with a drill bit) in the center of the outer layer to use as a starting point, and then used a "roller-bearing guided flush trimming bit" in my router to make the hole in the outer layer match exactly the hole in the inner layer... since the roller bearing will trace the circumference of the inner layer hole you already made and cut the outer layer to match exactly.


Joe L.


----------



## dsl1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *J. L.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I made the driver and port holes in the inner layer of my end-caps, then attached the outer layer(s) to the inner (prior to making any hole in the outer layer)
> 
> 
> Then... I made a 3/4 inch hole (with a drill bit) in the center of the outer layer to use as a starting point, and then used a "roller-bearing guided flush trimming bit" in my router to make the hole in the outer layer match exactly the hole in the inner layer... since the roller bearing will trace the circumference of the inner layer hole you already made and cut the outer layer to match exactly.
> 
> 
> Joe L.



Makes perfect sense.


Then what did you use to make indent around the driver for it to be flush? This is the one of the last parts I am confused on. I'm sure once I actually buy a router it will make sense.


Edit: You use a rebate bit correct?


Thanks


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsl1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Makes perfect sense.
> 
> 
> Then what did you use to make indent around the driver for it to be flush? This is the last part I am confused on. I'm sure once I actually buy a router it will make sense.
> 
> 
> Thanks



The answer was back in post 153 in this thread... (You did commit this entire thread to memory... didn't you







)


In case you did not





















...


You could do it two ways... make a shallow circle, just large enough for the flange of the driver to sit even with the front of your enclosure, and of a large enough diameter for it to fit the diameter of the flange with your router, then, adjust the circle jig for a diameter about an inch or so smaller and cut the hole for the driver basket all the way through the front of the enclosure. I did it this way for my center channel enclosure.


Or... you could cut a circle exactly 1 inch in diameter smaller than the flange of your driver all the way through the front of the enclosure and then use a roller-bearing rabbiting bit... adjusted to cut the depth of your flange... to make the rabbet. This is much easier and allows you to use the same bit to trim the veneer later saving a bunch of work.

A link to my original post is here 

An example of the rabbeting bit is here 

And further explained here 


A really good description/tutorial on how to do this is at speakerbuilder.net at this link 

Jeff's post on the same task is here ... yup... we both made the inner hole about 1/8th inch too small (we followed the plans) and had to widen the rabbet we made from 1/2 inch to 9/16ths of an inch.


Joe L.


----------



## dsl1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *J. L.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> snip




You are the man!!



Edit: One more question for now. Did you put a layer of insulation on the inside of the sonosub or just around the port?


Thanks


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsl1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You are the man!!
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: One more question for now. Did you put a layer of insulation on the inside of the sonosub or just around the port?
> 
> 
> Thanks



In my sonosub it is only around the port. It is there to dampen "standing waves" that might occur since the tube length is long enough to be a quarter-wave long at higher frequencies.


The rest of the sonotube is bare inside.


For your other questions... The inside diameter of any given tube might vary as it makes a lot of sense to be able to nest several large tubes together when shipping them. Therefore, my tube was 18 1/4 inch diameter, the one you buy might be 18 inches...


Best to get the tube first before doing the final fitting of the end-caps. Also... don't get fooled by only taking one measurement of the diameter. The unsupported tubes are rarely perfectly round, it might measure 18 1/2 in one place and 18 at another. Now, you can make your end-cap perfectly round and the tube will conform to the shape, but trial and error fittings are in order.


If you are unsure, make a circle out of scrap wood and do a trial fit in the sonotube... once you have your circle jig adjusted so the end-caps are snug, make others out of the good MDF using the same jig adjustment.


Good luck with your project.


I'm in the middle of building the "replacement" for my sonosub. It is a bit bigger 25 cubic feet vs. 9 1/2, two 18" drivers vs. a single 15" driver and 13 Liters total displacement vs. 2.5Liters. It will sit below my screen as the "stage" It is about 96 inches long, 16 inches high, and 36 inched deep in the middle tapering to 30 inches deep at the ends.

*Here is a a picture of it so far, standing on end, as I work on laminating the curved front.*










Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof

JL, I have seen pics like this before and may have even asked before, but do you do all the assembly work in your theater? Did you use up the majority of your garage for the theater or do you have some sports cars in there or something? I wouldn't do that in my theater for several reasons, the first of which is that it would not be bright enough...


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> JL, I have seen pics like this before and may have even asked before, but do you do all the assembly work in your theater? Did you use up the majority of your garage for the theater or do you have some sports cars in there or something? I wouldn't do that in my theater for several reasons, the first of which is that it would not be bright enough...



I do a lot of the assembly in the theater... It is out of the way, in the basement, air-conditioned in the summer, heated in the winter, and generally not a problem to manage the construction and still be able to watch movies. It is bright enough if I turn on the lights full.


On the other hand, the 2 car garage is attached to the side of the house, is about 95 degrees, (not air-conditioned or heated), only has one 75 watt bulb to light it up. One half is a bit cluttered and the other half does have a "sports car" of sorts. A fiberglass replica of a 1952 MGTD built on an old 1972 VW chassis. It has not been on the road for over a year. We've had it for over 23 years and it does not get much use... (we have other cars for day-to-day use) ( This is not my "sports car", but looks exactly like it )


So... the theater is a lot more comfortable for the assembly work after I make most of the sawdust outside.


I will admit, because I do most of my cutting outside of the garage, the car does have a layer of MDF dust on it at this time. It is overdue for a wash.


Joe L.


----------



## BrianMat

The new box is looking good Joe and it looks like it will not take too long to get it finished. I still can't imagine what sort of effect that will have in your theater. I'm going to have "woofer envy"....


If I can just get past my anal rententive nature and just build the *%#@ thing I will be set. As it was, I was outside tonight fitting two inside caps together and lamenting the fact that somehow I got my circle cutter off by somewhere beween 1/32" and 1/16". It's things like that which make me toss everything and start all over again. So, I just glued them together and figured I would see if I can live with the difference. I'll probably be able to convince myself tomorrow that an trim bit and some caulk will make it all ok.


It is a bit of a pain doing this on an 8'x8' patio. You really need some room to work and move around when dealing with things this size.


My plan for tomorrow is to get the next caps glued up, get the driver hole cut in the bottom cap, and glue the bottom plate. Unless it rains this week, I should be ready to test fit it all this weekend sometime - and I am stoked.


Oh, and this MKIII sub is pretty darned stout. I was suprised at how beefy it feels for under $200. I think I will be quite happy with this driver.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrianMat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The new box is looking good Joe and it looks like it will not take too long to get it finished. I still can't imagine what sort of effect that will have in your theater. I'm going to have "woofer envy"....



I don't think you have anything to worry about...


> Quote:
> I'll probably be able to convince myself tomorrow that a trim bit and some caulk will make it all ok.



Yup... and a bit of caulk to fill any gaps... you'll be in fine shape. If two layers are inside the tube you will want them to taper slightly just to get them to fit into the ends. (I originally made them square and could not get them into the tube they were so tight. I had to taper them slightly and even rounded over the innermost edge to make it easier to get it inserted into the tube)



> Quote:
> Oh, and this MKIII sub is pretty darned stout. I was suprised at how beefy it feels for under $200. I think I will be quite happy with this driver.



Nice that it was on sale... I've read of lots of subs being built with it... I'm sure your neighbors will soon have "woofer envy" too










Good luck... hope you get it all together by the weekend.


Joe L.


----------



## dsl1

What sort of quality bits should I get for routing mdf? I can't seem to find a good set. It looks like I will get a Skil 1825 unless anybody here knows of a better router for 100$ It has a 1/2in shank size.


----------



## BrianMat

Get carbide bits. High Speed Steel (HSS) will not work long term for MDF.


One thing I have found over the years: bits and blades - you get what you pay for. I am grabbing a few Freud bits tonight on the way home. They are more expensive, but they will last beyond one project. I only like to use generic bits/blades when 1) cut quality is not critical or 2) I REALLY don't want to drive back out to HD or Woodworker's Supply. Entropy sucks sometimes










That $48 bit may look similar to that $14 bit, but there really is a difference.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsl1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What sort of quality bits should I get for routing mdf? I can't seem to find a good set. It looks like I will get a Skil 1825 unless anybody here knows of a better router for 100$ It has a 1/2in shank size.



you will want to get the carbide-tipped bits... the MDF will dull the plain steel bits far too quickly.


I bought a boxed set of various sizes from a local "Harbor Freight Tools" store that I used.


Joe L.


----------



## dsl1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrianMat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Get carbide bits. High Speed Steel (HSS) will not work long term for MDF.
> 
> 
> One thing I have found over the years: bits and blades - you get what you pay for. I am grabbing a few Freud bits tonight on the way home. They are more expensive, but they will last beyond one project. I only like to use generic bits/blades when 1) cut quality is not critical or 2) I REALLY don't want to drive back out to HD or Woodworker's Supply. Entropy sucks sometimes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That $48 bit may look similar to that $14 bit, but there really is a difference.



My amazon cart has 3 freud cutting bits, 1/2 straight, 3/4in straight, and 3/8in flush trim. I also have a Grizzly 1/2 rabbeting bit and a Grizzly 3/4in roundover bit.


Sound good?


Should I get a jasper jig or is it not worth the money and making my own? I'm not even sure if it will fit the Skil 1825.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I bought a set of carbide tiped bits a HD for $100. I've made 14 speakers with them and they're like new. The set has 24 buts, but I really only use the roundover, straight cutting and Roman Ogee. The last one is used to put a nice edge on stands.


----------



## BrianMat

As far as jigs go, I was going to make my own circle jig, but when I was at Sears last weekend I came across their circle cutting jig for $29.95. It came with the circle cutter and edge cutter with a universal (and quick disconnect) base. I figured that was worth the price of admission since I know it would be pretty close to accurate out of the box. It works well, but make sure you get some extra nails to fit the pivot - they give you one $(@! tack to use.


I'm picking up an upcut spiral bit tonight on the way home. I have been reading more about those and how they tend to work a bit better for making these types of cuts. I figured it's worth a shot.


Oh, and true happiness is realizing there is a Harbor Freight just a few miles away







You can get some really slick stuff over there, just be careful what you get. Take a good look at it and assume most of the power tools shouldn't be used for heavy duty or finish work. The stuff there was killer for framing a house I was helping with - especially the compressor...but I digress.


Now, if the weather plays nice this weekend I can get more done. Dang rain this week.


----------



## dsl1

Well I ordered my stuff.


Skil 1825 plunge and fixed base combo router

6 24in clamps

1 36in straight edge clamp

1 Jasper jig and hopefully it will fit the router. Anyone use the jasper jig with a 1/2in shank router? How do you figure out the measurements?


Then I got MLCS router bits. Hopefully they are decent. Seem to have good reviews from some big magazines.


Quantity Name SKU Each Total

1 Round Over bit 3/4" radius

1 Straight 1/2in X 1in X 1/2 shank

1 Rabbeting bit 1/2in guide bearing

1 Flush Trim bit 3/8" Lrg Dia 1" Cut Length - 1/2" shank


All bits are carbide and the bits that need guide bearings are guide bearings.


I have wood glue and will get MDF in the next day or two. Its just standard interior 3/4in MDF correct?


Now for the questions.


What size hole do I need for the tweeter and the 5.25in driver?

The 6.5in driver needs a 5 7/8in hole with a 1/2in lip all the way around correct? Also in the rear what size hole do I make for the panel where the cables come in? I will buy the madisound kit. I'm buying a house so money is a bit tight at the moment and I would like to build the cases first. Then in a month or two buy kits.


Thanks everyone.


----------



## dsl1

Looking over Madisounds site again I found measurements. http://www.madisound.com/audaxhometheater.html 


So a 1.75in circle for the tweeter

From the instructions here a 5 7/8in circle with a 1/2in rabbet that is a 1/4in deep for the 6.5in driver



Now the center channels 5.25in driver.


Instructions say a 4 3/8 cut with a rabbet that will make it 5 5/8. I will only have a 1/2in rabbeting bit so is it okay to make the hole 4 5/8in? If not what did you do?


----------



## BigguyZ

For router bits, I've really like the Woodline bits I got online. VERY cheap shipping (flat $4 for even large orders), and great service. You can get inexpensive bits, and I don't feel that the quality is lacking when comparing with the Menards tool shop or other cheap bits. I've gottwn whiteside bits as well, and I'd say they're in the same ballpark.


----------



## BigguyZ

Anyone have any idea's/ suggestions for an affordable router table?


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigguyZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone have any idea's/ suggestions for an affordable router table?



Sears, Menards, or even check and see what woodline.com has. Or better yet DIY, and make one up. And you can also buy just the tops or even just the insert plate that hold the router, if you want to go the DIY road....


----------



## BigguyZ

That's not a bad idea as far as the DIY route. But I wouldn't mind spending more $ to get more functionality. Anyone familiar with a particular model? There's a Bostich table at HD for $250, but you have to buy the router too. But then there's the Ryobi router/ table combo for $100.... I think though that I'd need at least a 1/2" shank for the larger bits.


----------



## BrianMat

Well, I thought I was going to be ready to dry fit everything together today. The NC heat took its toll earlier today and an oopsie with the router ruined my speaker end cap.


So, I need to cut a few more disks and glue them up. The good news is I learned a few things when doing my speaker cutouts, so it should be a little easier this time around.


I picked up some Freud bits to replace the rest of the cheapies I was using - and it made a big difference. The cheap bits were burning the MDF but the Freud were ripping through it like it was nothing. The price wasn't that bad either (about $18.50 per bit at Woodworker's Supply).


After my router gouged the heck out of my endcap and sent it flying out of the clamps I packed it up for the day










It's times like this where I really miss having a garage.


I cut the sonotube to length this weekend. One thing that worked well for me was to draw my cutline then use my pull saw to score on the cutline. I was then able to easily follow the scored line the entire diameter of the sonotube. You don't need anything expensive: HD sells a cross cut/finish cut combo pull saw for about $16. This worked much better then when I tried with my jigsaw. The vibrations from the jigsaw were making it hard to rotate the sonotube and stay on the cutline. Using the pull saw only took me about 10 minutes to get dead on the line. If you have never used a pull saw then give one a try. They make short work out of most cutting duty.


So, hopefully next weekend I'll have better luck.


Rules for the weekend:


1. Watch 1/2" router bits. They bite much more than 1/4" bits and can kick when you don't expect it.


2. Be careful working in the heat. Sometimes it is hard to tell if the sun is getting to you and you are getting clumsy.


3. USE GOOD TOOLS


I just chalked it up to a learning experience.


----------



## J. L.

Brian,


I too was slowed by the heat... I did get to make some sawdust after dinner yesterday as the temperature was below 90 and the driveway was in the shade. I did purchase a new Freud carbide tipped blade for my circular saw so it made the cutting a bit easier. When using your router don't try to make your cuts in one pass... instead, cut only about 1/4 inch depth at a time and make multiple passes. If your work was grabbed and wrenched out of your clamps you were lucky you did not get hurt. As you said, lesson learned.


I spent my time making lots of little pieces of wood out of a large sheet of plywood. (My wife said I was doing my "manly thing" of using power tools and making sawdust)


Basically, I cut 1 inch wide strips of baltic-birch plywood and then cut them to the lengths needed to fit inside the curved front of my new sub enclosures. I ended up with just over 100 cut pieces, each about 1 x 14.5 inches. (and lots of sawdust)


Once glued in place they will make the front about 1 1/4 inches thick. (two layers of 1/4 inch ply combined with the 3/4 inch strips I made last night.)


I've placed them in the front of the sub to make sure everything fit as planned.


Next step for me is to glue them all into place using "Gorilla Glue." It will expand to fill all the voids and cracks.


Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof

Dude, J.L., looks like you need to get a way to accuratly reproduce the same length every time! If you have a mitre saw, get some clamps and some extra peices of wood and make a stop block or stop fixture so you can push the peice of wood against the stop, cut and go. Every peice will be the same length that way, plus, you don't need to measure every time!


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dude, J.L., looks like you need to get a way to accuratly reproduce the same length every time! If you have a mitre saw, get some clamps and some extra peices of wood and make a stop block or stop fixture so you can push the peice of wood against the stop, cut and go. Every peice will be the same length that way, plus, you don't need to measure every time!



Scott,


I did use a stop-block and a miter-fixture in my homemade cutting jig.











It made everything go very fast. As you said, I did not have to measure every piece. I also used the "saw-guide" on my circular saw to first cut the long 1 inch wide strips from the sheet of plywood. It also made the work go much faster as all I had to do was to re-adjust the clamps so the saw blade would clear the saw-horses I was using when making the cuts.


It still took me almost two hours as I was not trying to rush in the heat. Last thing I wanted to do was to make a trip to the emergency room.


Joe L.


----------



## BrianMat

Joe,


Is there a reason you did the cutting as strips rather than as 2 pieces of ply? It would seem marking the radius of the cut and hitting it with a jigsaw would have been less work, but I am sure you have your reasons.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrianMat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Joe,
> 
> 
> Is there a reason you did the cutting as strips rather than as 2 pieces of ply? It would seem marking the radius of the cut and hitting it with a jigsaw would have been less work, but I am sure you have your reasons.



Brian,

The front layer is a single piece of ply. When the top and bottom are in place I'll add another 1/4" layer on top to make it all look nice and even. If it looks good enough I might not cover the front of the stage with fabric like I originally planned. I do know the top will be covered with black velvet to absorb the light reflected from the screen. It makes a huge difference.


It would have taken 5 layers of 1/4 inch ply to get the same thickness. I just traded lots of pieces, for lots of glue and clamps. As you said, I could have done it either way. This way however, as I glue up the strips on the inside of the front I can extend the front-to-back braces all the way to the front-ply (each brace taking the place where of one of the 3/4 inch strips that would have been in the glue-up) That will give me a lot more gluing surface on the brace, tightly tie the brace to the front, and result in a lot stronger box.


Joe L.

I know it seems like progress is slow... but my wife and I also watched about three movies this past week ... and my current "smaller" subwoofer works just fine for most soundtracks.


----------



## BrianMat

Much better progress after work today. I got the bottom cap speaker cutout done and re-cut an endcap before the rain started trickling in.


I have to hit HD to get a few more t-nuts since my other ones were glued in between layers. I hate making that run for a $0.98 bag of bolts.


Hopefully tomorrow if it doesn't rain I can get the rest of the holes cut and the endcap glued up. It should be short work to cut the port end again, so that is my Thurs/Fri plan. I am taking it much slower this weekend and not letting myself sit out in the heat all day.


----------



## SVonhof

J.L., do you do all your cutting with a saw like you show? I try to do almost everything with a table saw and mitre saw to ensure the straightest edges and square corners.


Plus, I just don't even have a good saw like that.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> J.L., do you do all your cutting with a saw like you show? I try to do almost everything with a table saw and mitre saw to ensure the straightest edges and square corners.
> 
> 
> Plus, I just don't even have a good saw like that.



Yup... A 30 some odd year old Sears Craftsman 7 1/4 inch blade circular saw is what use for most cuts. I do have a hand-held power jigsaw, but it does not do as well ripping long lengths of plywood







I don't have a table saw.


I did make the "jig" I pictured to allow me to make accurate square cuts. In effect, it turns my circular saw into a radial-arm-saw. I learned when I built my candy-counter face-frame that accurate cuts on 1x2 oak are tough with a circular saw unless you have some kind of miter jig. The base-plate of the saw rides in two routed guides that are positioned about an inch above the cutting table. It is easy to get accurate and square cuts.


Joe L.


----------



## Duaner

Just visiting the site after a few months away from it all.


J.L., your new sub project looks amazing... I can't wait to see it all completed and in place.


Jeff H., I took a few minutes and flipped through the pics of your new home and your HT... wow. That's a beautiful home, and an awesome dedicated HT... Just spectacular. Make sure you post some photos once everything is complete.


The weather is going to start getting cooler soon, and the days are already getting shorter... time for me to start thinking seriously about some saturday night movie nights again. I am still using the audax fronts and center than I built last winter, along with the IB subs. I want to upgrade my reciever, but I don't know if the budget will allow. Right now, 5 or 6 hundred bucks is about the max I could spend... I don't think I can get what I want for that price... these audax speakers are a hard drive, and I would like to get something that can really make them sing... so if that means waiting a while to get what I really want instead of settling for something less, that's what I'll do. We just spent a fortune on getting our house sided this year, and I still have gobs of money to spend remodeling the kitchen, dining room, and downstairs bathroom, so it might be a while.


well, anyways, just checking in... keep the photos rolling fellas...


----------



## BrianMat

After last weekend's oopsies I have recovered the progress on my sonotube sub. Right now I am waiting for the epoxy to dry on my port so I can finish that part.


The base is done. I made a new set of binding posts which took a while because I kept cracking the plexi I was using. Next time: thicker plexi.


I'm getting totally on edge to get this finished and try it out. I have to keep tempering my enthusiasm or I might rush myself and make a last minute mistake.


While the epoxy is drying I'm going to make another search for my digital camera to see if I can get a few shots of the current progress. I swear, when you move stuff just disappears. I've been looking for some stuff for 3 weeks now and I still can't find the right boxes.


Update:


Here are some progress pics:


End cap and port:











One big port, but the correct size per bassbox. It's a 6" piece of PVC and 27.4" length.


Bottom cap shot:











Nothing fancy here - just lots of t-nuts. The driver takes 8 and the feet take 4. I use #10-32 3" screws for the driver and 1/4" 6" for the feet.


Driver assembly:











The binding posts bother me right now, but I will think of a better setup. I'll probably recut with thicker plexi - but this is what I had sitting in my parts box.


Base cap assembly:




















I used 4" schedule 40 pipe fittings for the base. Once I paint and reassemble I will put a 1" piece of PVC around this and then cover with black poly pipe insulation. It will make it look a bit more sturdy, but even with just the PVC it's pretty darned strong. I was able to stand on this before I cut all of the driver holes - so it can handle 205lbs.


The feet turned out to be pretty simple. There is a t-nut on the first cap which was countersunk just a touch and then glued onto the inner caps. The threads are completey hidden.


The base was drilled and a forstner bit was used to make a small section for 3 washers to fit. I used just a 6" 1/4" hex bolt. I slipped the pipe fittings over the hex bolt and tightened it all down. I probably spent $20 just in hardware until I found something that worked for me. I wanted easy to disassemble. I just knew if I made a permamant assembly the second it was all set I would need to get to the driver.


So, this is it for now. Once the epoxy is set I will route the port end cap and test fit everything together. I hate to do it, but I will have to disassemble one of my JBL subs to get to the amp for testing. Oh well, it should all re-assemble just fine.


If testing goes well, then everything will come apart this week and get primed and painted before the weekend.


That's all for now


----------



## J. L.

Brian,


Your subwoofer project is looking really good. Thanks for sharing the pictures.


What internal volume and tuning frequency did you decide on for your sonosub?


One other question... with your neighbor's backyards as close as they are, has anyone asked "What in the heck are you building" yet?

(Odds are they would not recognize it for what it will be)


Joe L.


----------



## BrianMat

The internal volume: 206.5l

Fb: 18.53Hz


All per bassbox


I keep getting looks from the neighbors. I had one finally ask me today what in the heck I am building. I told him the spec of the subwoofer and he asked if he can check it out when it's done.


Overall it has been a fun project. I learned a lot, and I think a second time around I could do this in a couple of days without a problem.


We'll see how it sounds this week


----------



## M NEWMAN




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrianMat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I told him the spec of the subwoofer and he asked if he can check it out when it's done.



That's funny.... little does he know that he'll be "checking it out" whether he wants to or not, once you fire that puppy up and crank it.


----------



## BrianMat

At least until I get the basement fixed and work on the theater conversion the neighbors don't have much of a choice










I'm just hoping with all of this work it goes deep enough. The size seems a bit small, but I double checked all of the numbers and I am within about 1/4" on the length of the sonotube. It just seems small at the moment, but time will tell.


I did find that gluing 2 pieces of MDF and cutting them in one go was much faster and much more accurate. It just took every bit of the router bit to do the 1.5" thickness, but multiple small passes did it. I also used a 1/4" upcut bit, so it took it much slower than I would have with a 1/2" bit. If I can ever find the 1/2" collet for my router I will just switch to all big bits. I have a 2HP Industrial Craftsman that doesn't bog down much at all.


If I were to do it again, I would glue the two inside caps and cut them at once then tack the two bottom caps and make a single pass cut.


The hardest part was doing the port since my jig doesn't do small circles and I didn't want to spend another $35 on a Jasper jig. Next time I would just add that to the bag of tools. The Craftsman jig I used for $30 was worth its weight in gold.


But, the bottom line to any of these projects: good tools. Using the new Freud router bits made a HUGE difference in time and cut quality. The upcut bit only required some light sanding to make it nice and flush. Granted this was overkill, but I wanted to have perfect cuts on the caps. Anal, I know.


I also added a small roundover to the inner cap. This makes it so much easier to fit it into the tube since you don't have to worry about square edges catching. You don't need to do much, just enough to knock the edge off. You could even do a chamfer bit instead of a roundover.


I also added the wire to the binding posts: 12ga Carol wire from PE. Man, that stuff is sturdy. The Titanic comes with a spring loaded set of posts, so you don't have to crimp a connector to the end. Just one less connection to have to worry about.


I still don't like my sucky binding posts, but nobody will ever see it so I need to convince myself this is not a problem worth solving. I'll just add some silicone to seal it and call it done.


I still don't want to go pulling the amp out of my JBL just yet, so I might hit Ebay for a Crown 402B or PE for one of the sub amps. I could have either before the end of the week and not spend much on it. I'm going to eventually do 402B/202B amps for the entire theater, so this would be a good time to start buying.


I've been covered in MDF dust for the last couple of weekends, so tonight I am going out and refuse to play with any projects at home until tomorrow


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrianMat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> At least until I get the basement fixed and work on the theater conversion the neighbors don't have much of a choice



Hope they share the same taste in music and movies as you...



> Quote:
> I'm just hoping with all of this work it goes deep enough. The size seems a bit small, but I double checked all of the numbers and I am within about 1/4" on the length of the sonotube. It just seems small at the moment, but time will tell.



Brian, a 200+ liter 15" driver subwoofer, tuned to 18Hz is not "small." "Medium sized" perhaps, compared to some





















, much larger than most, but certainly not "small." I'm sure both you and your neighbors will find it goes plenty "deep"


If you get the amp from PE, get the one without any bass-boost. You don't want or need any artificial "boost"


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I'm w/Joe. If I remember correctly, mine is 260L and over 6' tall. That aint small. I'm only building a second one just because I have the extra sono tube and MDF. I also have a bit of boominess in the rear of the room and I want to eliminate that.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey guys,

I'm building a set of pretty large corner horns for an entertainment room in our basement. I want to use highly polished veneer for the horns and a piano finish on the main cabinet. Does anyone know of a link for the application of a piano finish?


----------



## BigguyZ

I recomend checking out computer case modding sites. Many will have a DIY guide to doing a mirror finish.


----------



## SVonhof

not much, but here are a few tips:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=573117


----------



## Johnla

For something that big, a spray gun (and preferably a HVLP one) and automotive type finishes, using either lacquer or a urethane clear coat. Are probably the best way to go for a high gloss piano type finish. Not to mention a lot of careful prep work and sanding before applying the finish.

And then comes.... the buffing...


----------



## M NEWMAN

See my inwall thread for an example of an automotive finish in ebony black.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Thanks guys. I have an air compressor. I think I can get a decent HVLP sprayer for


----------



## Johnla

Whadda making? It almost sounds like it might be a set of Klipschorn "clones".


----------



## BrianMat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *J. L.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Brian, a 200+ liter 15" driver subwoofer, tuned to 18Hz is not "small."



You know, I think you're right. I appeared to be suffering what I call "environmental distortion". When you look at all of this stuff outside it looks tiny. Sort of like how the 65" TV doesn't look all that big in Best Buy...until you set it in your living room.


I finished painting this weekend. I decided to go with a satin black since it seemed to be pretty good at covering without much difficulty. I had to hit some shiny spots with 00 steel wool, but it looks really good now. Doesn't really reflect any light at all. Priming the setup with Kilz seemed to make a big difference in painting.


I dry fit the entire assembly for a final check and yeah, it's pretty friggin big.


I should have my carpet replaced on Wed (was supposed to be last week, but the slacker carpet guys couldn't get everything done). So, all of the A/V stuff is put away until this is done. I'll probably hit the fabric store on the way home and grab some material to make the sonotube sock.


I was planning to add some silicon caulk to the inside of the tube to seal the caps. I figured once it is assembled I really wouldn't have any reason to disassemble it later. I can still get the driver out if I need to without removing an end cap. I assume the caulk would not cause a problem later, but I wanted to check before I make the last changes to the assembly.


Now to practice my sewing skills. Everyone laughed when I got my sewing machine, but they would have never bought the line of, "It's for my subwoofer"


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrianMat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now to practice my sewing skills. Everyone laughed when I got my sewing machine, but they would have never bought the line of, "It's for my subwoofer"



The gals at the fabric store will really look at you weird when you ask for 2 yards of fabric so you can sew some socks ( for your "subwoofer").


Maybe you shouldn't tell them the whole truth


----------



## BrianMat

Well, here's the assembly awaiting the silicon caulk to dry:











I had some extra spray paint, so I painted some of the top - partly for giggles and grins. I thought of putting a layer of paint down, but it would take forever to spray the outside of this using cans. Besides, it will be covered with fabric. If any of the primer bleeds through then a quick go over with a foam roller and black paint should take care of that.


Once the caulk loses the tack I will drill some pilot holes and drive some 1 1/2" drywall screws to secure it. I doubt I will be able to fire it up tonight, and it would probably be best to let the caulk cure a little. Any shiny spots on the photo is the wet caulk. It should look fine in the morning.


Tomorrow though, it will be on










Oh, as a design note, I used the 4" PVC sections as the feet, but I decided to cover the outside with some of the 1" pipe insulation cut to length. I cut a small notch around the speaker and it sits nice and flush with the outsides. It actually looks pretty nice on the bottom. The pics don't quite give the best representation of how it really looks.


I can think of 100 things I would have done a little differently, but the way I usually overengineer and overanalyze everything I do it's a wonder I ever finish anything.


I'll post pics once I get a sock made and I get my basement back.


----------



## technimac

PE has done it again with their DOTD. The AUDAX AP170ZO is on sale for $24 until tomorrow. Limit is 8, but if anyone is doing an Audax HT, that'd be enough a 5.1 system.

Cheers, Bruce


----------



## BrianMat

Tonight I pulled the amp out of a JBL PB10 that I have to test the sub. Of course, I had to put in the depth charge scene of U-571.


I don't have the projector up, so I had to go by memory. I was thinking, "Hmm, this is decent" until of course the deep LFE explosion


Oh


my


God


The amp from the PB10 is only 150 watts, so I have to crank it up to almost max to get it to push the Titanic driver. I can't wait to get some real power behind this thing. I can't imagine if I push a Crown 402 into this monster.


I think at one point I was giggling like a schoolgirl as I replayed chapter 15 over and over. This has been 100% worth the effort just from my one little listening session. Talk about deep and tight bass. Wow.


I can't thank Joe enough for getting me started down this path. I am just amazed at how different my system already sounds and I haven't even started to dial anything in.


This think just flat out kicks ass. If it wasn't 11:00 I would be down there firing off the LFE demo disk. That's for tomorrow...


----------



## SVonhof

Brian, sounds like you are going to have some fun!


So, do you have any other pics of the beast? In-process pics and such? You, posing next to it in some slinky little number for size comparisons. Wait, that didn't sound right at all, forget I said that! 


If I remember correctly, back what about a year ago, J.L. posed next to his water heater subwoofer for size comparisons, it helps to get an idea how big those subs are!


I would love to make one, but don't want a water-heater sitting in my theater, so I will stick to my two Parts Express Titanic 1000 kits for now.

I could make a sub that was larger diameter and stick it on the right side of the eqiupment rack, there is room there in front of the column where it would be out of the way, as long as I don't go above the chair-rail.... That could handle something about 24" in diameter and 48" tall. Do they make 2' diameter sonotube?


----------



## BrianMat

Scott,


I can see of I can get some size comparison pics and overall finished dimensions.


The funny thing about this sub, is it is big enough to sort of disappear if that makes any sense. It almost blends itself in like furniture. The shape of it also seems to break up and "big box" lines other subs have.


I do recall in other locations where people talked about getting 24" Sonotube, but I can't imagine how bulky that would be.


Overall I would say this is worth every bit of effort and absolutely justifies the cost.


As for in progress pics, sorry, I didn't make any. My camera was still packed up from the move and I didn't dig it out until the end.


Once I put more power to it I will get a better feeling of where the sub's limits are. Right now, I can't find any issues with the build quality.


For the moment, I can tell you it is under 5'8"







But, I will see what I can do tonight.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrianMat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was thinking, "Hmm, this is decent" until of course the deep LFE explosion
> 
> 
> Oh
> 
> 
> my
> 
> 
> God
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think at one point I was giggling like a schoolgirl as I replayed chapter 15 over and over. This has been 100% worth the effort just from my one little listening session. Talk about deep and tight bass. Wow.



Yup... you just described how a decent sub will typically NOT bring attention to itself, but be there when needed by the program material to pressurize the room.


> Quote:
> I can't thank Joe enough for getting me started down this path. I am just amazed at how different my system already sounds and I haven't even started to dial anything in.
> 
> 
> This thing just flat out kicks ass. If it wasn't 11:00 I would be down there firing off the LFE demo disk. That's for tomorrow...



You are welcome... remember, you helped me by "disposing" of the big cardboard tube that was taking up space in my garage. I think you will have a blast when you check out the LFE disk. (pun intended) Seriously, you will be re-watching movies and be surprised at how much subtle low-level deep bass exists in their soundtracks. It does not get as much press as the extreme LFE effects, but it sure adds to the total immersive experience.


Oh yes... multiple depth charge runs at 11:00PM







Be considerate of the neighbors, otherwise they'll want to "kick ass" too.










Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys, I'm looking at the 15" buyout driver at PE. The deal is good until tomorrow. I may replace my current 15" DVC w/one of these. Which Crown amp is good for subs? The 'bay has good deals on Crown amps, but I'm not sure which series is for subs.

Thanks,

jh


----------



## Johnla

That DVC 15" buyout subwoofer is rated for 1050w RMS @ 4ohms, and it has dual voice coils. So you're probably going to want something that can put out about 400-500wpc x 2 into 4ohms. And the Crown XLS 402 is rated as 400wpc x2 @ 4ohms, so it should work well with it. Although I think the XLS 602 may be a better choice with it's higher output, (and is the one that I would probably choose to go with that driver) the XLS 402 would still probably be adequate. The XLS 202 however, I really don't think would have anywhere near enough power for it.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/245-460d.pdf 



You may want to also consider looking at the QSC RMX 1450 or 1850 series of pro amps as well, with the RMX 1850 maybe being the better choice.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/rmx.pdf 



Also if you have any pro music shops, like a guitar center around where you live. They often will sell these same amps for very close to what ebay prices are. But beware, both the Crown XLS series and the QSC series of amps have cooling fans. Which depending upon where the amps are placed, they may or may not be objectionable to you as far as the amount of noise they create.


My only concern with that driver though, is that it may be a better driver for use as a automotive sub than it is for a H/T sub.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

johnla,

Thanks! My equipment is in an isolated room and fan noise is no problem. My HK7200 has a push/pull cooling unit sandwiched between it and another amp. It has 8 fans and they can't be heard in the main room. The 402 and 602 are readilly available for $220/$320 on ebay.


So is anyone else going to bite on that driver?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I ordered the driver and I'll be buying an XLS 602. I'm just going to remove the old Dayton DVC and replace it with the new one. The cutout dimensions are the same.

jh


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Argh! Someone pointed out the high Fs of 37 Hz on that driver. I'm not going to get it now.


----------



## kroberts1972

First, Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have read it over the past 2 weeks and it was very informative.

Now, I want to build the Audax speakers, and I want to mount the crossover components in a subenclosure at the back of the box. If I do this, should I approximate the volume of the crossover components, then modify the box depth to comensate, or is this overkill and unnecessary?


----------



## BigguyZ

I don't think it's necessary to worry about the crossover volume. However, you can always mount the crossovers on the outside of the Sub enclosure. That way, no worries.


----------



## SteveCallas

Just found this thread - didn't even know AVS had a DIY forum. Here is the sonosub I just finished. http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~scallas 

I agree that a black sonosub, no matter how big, does seem to blend into a room quite nicely. I also owe my happiness and performance to helpful people like Joe, Thomas, Patrick, and Mike.


Jeff, I would definitely recommend at least taking a look at the Carvin hd1800. The Crown XLS series became really popular here because it was one of the first pro amps that gained acceptance for use in ht. But it isn't as heavy as most of its competitors, it doesn't offer as many features (variable speed fan is a big one), and doesn't have as solid a FR - it starts dropping around 15hz.


----------



## kroberts1972

Bigguyz,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my last post. I am planning on mounting the crossovers outside the box. I am wondering if this box was designed with an overvolume to compensate for the crossovers, and if I take them out of the box, should i decrease the box volume by the approximate volume of the crossover components?


Thanks for the quick reply!

Kevin


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I want to build the Audax speakers, and I want to mount the crossover components in a subenclosure at the back of the box. If I do this, should I approximate the volume of the crossover components, then modify the box depth to comensate, or is this overkill and unnecessary?



You can compensate if you wish, but I think you are also correct in that it is overkill and unnecessary. If you want to do anything, add an extra brace in the cabinet to occupy the volume the crossover would have occupied. It won't hurt, and it might ease your mind, even if unnecessary.


Joe L.


----------



## kroberts1972

Thanks Joe,

I added a brace also. I used a spreadsheet to calculate the original internal volume and make sure I maintained it by modifying the depth after I created a cavity at the back to house the crossovers and added bracing. I don't have the crossovers yet, so I am just guessing at my current depth measurement for the cavity.
See Image Here


----------



## SVonhof

Dude, you are making the box way more difficult to make than you need to. Too many joints...


Just my opinion.


----------



## kroberts1972

Scott,

I had the same thought after I made the model. The idea is to have easy access to the crossovers without putting them in a separate box. I thought I would add the brace since I was increasing the depth of the box, but I don't even know if that would be the right brace to add.


Edit: Spelling


----------



## SVonhof

I am not at work, so I can't do a 3D model to show what I am thinking, but see if you can follow my thoughts.


Extend all the walls of the box back past the back wall. This will create a hollow area behind the back wall and ports where you can then hide the crossover, as well as give the impression that the box is much larger than it is. I don't know where you are putting these speakers to tell if this would be a problem, but it would allow good access to the crossover as well as still allow the box to remain simple to build.


----------



## kroberts1972

That was my first thought, but I didn't know if that would interfere with the ports, so I figured I would just make a cavity that extends into the box so that the back could remain flat. So, if you think extending the box sides and top, then having the crossover back there won't affect the port, I will do that.


I can have a 16" box no problem.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

You won't regret it! I've had mine for over 2-yrs now (close to 3) and I still love them. Good luck and of course let us see them.

jh



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First, Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have read it over the past 2 weeks and it was very informative.
> 
> Now, I want to build the Audax speakers, and I want to mount the crossover components in a subenclosure at the back of the box. If I do this, should I approximate the volume of the crossover components, then modify the box depth to comensate, or is this overkill and unnecessary?


----------



## kroberts1972

Jeff, I will put up pics as soon as I have some. I still have to order the parts and I am aquiring a few tools right now, so it will be a bit.


Scott, Is this more like what you are suggesting? pic of center idea 2 


Edit due to url problem


----------



## PLincoln




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Jeff, I will put up pics as soon as I have some. I still have to order the parts and I am aquiring a few tools right now, so it will be a bit.
> 
> 
> Scott, Is this more like what you are suggesting? pic of center idea 2
> 
> 
> Edit due to url problem



that's the way i pictured it.


----------



## Duaner

Just checking in...


Good to see folks are still doing the audax kits. Now months since I completed my audax set, I plugged in my old cerwin vegas to do a quick comparison now that I am totally accustomed to the audax... and yuuuuuuck. There is no comparison whatsoever. And what strikes me the most is the difference in bass. The cerwin vegas are empty sounding... I couldn'y believe it. I had always held the bass capabilities of the cerwin vegas with high esteem... but man... they just sound unnatural in comparison to the audax... these babies are the best diy project I have ever done... hands down.


Still saving pennies for a new receiver... With heating prices this year being high, I might have to wait till next year... but you never know what santa might bring.


----------



## BigguyZ

If you're on a budget, the Pioneer 1014 I got works very well with my set. Plenty of power. I think there's a new model now, 1015 I think.


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Scott, Is this more like what you are suggesting? pic of center idea 2



That is exactly what I was trying to say!


----------



## SVonhof

Hey, I showed the pics of Steve's sub to a friend who does D.J.-ing and he was thinking of maybe building a new cabinet for his sub driver. It is an 18" driver that he says doesn't put out much bass, but can handle a crap-load of power. He has an amp that is capable of driving 2000watts bridged. He doesn't have the driver specs yet (don't know if he can get them without testing it on his own).


He says the cabinet it's in is not meant for it and was thinking that a sonotube cabinet could be rolled to the location and then wedged into place or something for an event. He is saying that the folded horn subs that are used for clubs and such are just too heavy for him to use for DJ gigs.


----------



## Johnla

I really don't think that the sonotube material itself would hold up very well at all to the abuse of being rolled around very much. Or even just the more "normal" type of abuse, such as constantly being moved around and loaded and unloaded all the time that it probably would be subjected if it used in something like a mobile DJ setup.


----------



## SVonhof

O.K., that's good to know. I have seen pictures of it, but have never actually seen it in person.


----------



## SteveCallas

I agree, it's not made to take bumps and bruises - and although it may weigh less, I think trying to move this thing around every week would be a lot harder than a box sub - there isn't much to grab on here.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SteveCallas* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think trying to move this thing around every week would be a lot harder than a box sub - there isn't much to grab on here.



That could be fixed by adding external handles. You could make the top and bottom end caps so that long threaded rods could tie the top and bottom together, but outside of the sonotube instead of inside as some of us have.


The external top-to-bottom rods would then make very nice handles for carrying. If you wanted to make the subs a bit less fragile, coat the outside with fiberglass resin/fiberglass cloth. Again, not a design I'd use in a home theater, but I'll bet it would look impressive as a DJ sub.


When in place, the driver cone would be pretty well protected. Only issue left is the max SPL needed and that is largely a function of displacement. Something like Steve's Avalanche 18" driver is likely to be enough for many venues and way better than what most portable DJ rigs produce.


Besides, like Steve has said, why build one when you have to buy a 12 foot section of tube anyway... build two... and blame any resulting seismic events on previously unknown fault lines.


----------



## kroberts1972

If the intent is to roll the sub, maybe he could beef up the endcaps and put a bike tire on each one.


----------



## SteveCallas

Bike tires got me thinking. If he is really considering this type of sub, he could use some foam or rubber material and wrap several layers around the sub to keep it protected. When I got my black cloth at Jo Ann Fabric, they had several varieties of rubber and foam materials on large rollers.


Putting the threaded rod on the outside like Joe suggested would probably work pretty well - the outer layers of cap would just have to be wider so that the rod doesn't screw into it near the edges where it can't support much weight. Also, the outer layers of cap would probably need to be a lot thicker than 3/4" to support the weight.


He could build a sub that isn't nearly as tall as mine because in a club you don't need or want to get into the low teens at a high spl. By shortening the height to about 3-4' and raising the tuning point to about 30-35hz, I'm pretty sure that thing could belt out some very serious spl. I will mess around with the numbers when I get home.



> Quote:
> Besides, like Steve has said, why build one when you have to buy a 12 foot section of tube anyway... build two... and blame any resulting seismic events on previously unknown fault lines










Exactly. If he is willing to buy a couple more drivers, he could easily make 3 subs out of a 12' piece and quickly build a reputation for himself as "DJ Bass".


----------



## kroberts1972

So, I just glued up the center channel sides and bottom. Tomorrow I will put in the mid sub enclosure and a sub enclosure at the back for the crossover. I can't remember who mentioned harbor freight, but I had never heard of it until I read about it in this thread. Without that I wouldn't have all of the clamps in this picture and none of them were over $4.00.

Picture of clamped up center 


Thanks for all of the great information from this thread.


----------



## SVonhof

If you got all those clamps for less than $4 a peice, you got a great deal! I am going to have to head over there before my next project, whenever that ends up being...


----------



## kroberts1972

Scott,

I would recommend just going there every once in a while if it isn't out of your way. I was there about 4 weeks ago and they had the standard bar style clamps on sale, then I was there last weekend and they had the quick grip type on sale, just in time for me to glue this up. $20 every once in a while and you will be able to clamp up just about anything.


----------



## SVonhof

Unfortunatly, it is out of my way. But if I know they will have them, I can make a detour!


----------



## kroberts1972

So, I glued up my mid chamber and I made it 3/4" too wide. Why? Because obviously I can't multiply 3/4" by 2 and subtract from 7 1/4. Does anyone think this will matter? I figured I can just leave it as is, and If it I think things don't sound right, I can glue some blocks of mdf to the roof of the mid chamber after testing. Does this sound like a good plan?


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So, I glued up my mid chamber and I made it 3/4" too wide. Why? Because obviously I can't multiply 3/4" by 2 and subtract from 7 1/4. Does anyone think this will matter? I figured I can just leave it as is, and If it I think things don't sound right, I can glue some blocks of mdf to the roof of the mid chamber after testing. Does this sound like a good plan?



kroberts1972,

I am not an expert, but your plan is as good as any. I'm not convinced it will make much difference.


It sounds like you also might have reduced the internal volume of the "midwoofer" compartment by the same few cubic inches. Again, it probably does not make too much difference, but you could perhaps find the tuning frequency very slightly higher.


Fortunately, this is not a exact science where the perfect enclosure magically ends up with dimensions that are multiples of 1/4 inch. I'm pretty sure it will sound just fine. If anything, make the port tubes a tiny bit longer and the tuning will be back close to where it was originally designed.


----------



## dsl1

I have a port tube question as well. I understand that it is the total length including the mdf for the port length. R/L speakers port is 5 1/4in in length including a 1/2in roundover. Now my question is I only have a 3/4in roundover bit. How much longer should I make the port to to compensate for the additional roundover? Should I just spend another 20$ for a 1/2in roundover or does it not matter to much at all?



Also does anyone remember the cutout size for the speaker terminal cup that comes with the madisound kit?


Thanks


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I always use these gold binding posts from PE just because I get tired of cutting large holes in my cabinets.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...umber=091-1245 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsl1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Also does anyone remember the cutout size for the speaker terminal cup that comes with the madisound kit?
> 
> 
> Thanks


----------



## kroberts1972

JL,

I thought about the extra removal of volume from the midwoofer cabinet, but my crossovers won't be in it, so it will probably still have a bit more volume than a cabinet with the crossover in it, so hopefully I will be fine there.


As for the mid subenclosure, I threw the numbers into winisd for the driver, it gave me this:


Optimal - 343.9 cu in - Qtc: .707, F3: 103 Hz

Original Plan - 310.5 cu in - Qtc: .725, F3: 106.7 Hz

Mine - 351 cu in - Qtc: .699, F3:102.32


So, it doesn't seem like much of a difference. The driver volume extended into the cabinet and stuffing will change this anyway, so in the end it will be inexact anyway. I might glue up the right amount of mdf and set it in there during testing just to see if there is any perceptable difference.


----------



## kroberts1972

dsl1,

You should find the following page quite interesting:
DIY Port Flares 

It states that:



> Quote:
> A flared port couples to the surrounding air more efficiently than an unflared one, meaning that the flared port appears shorter. The generally accepted adjustment is to subtract half the flare radius from the physical length to obtain the acoustic length. If both ends of the port are flared, the adjustment is done for each flare.



There is also a lot of other interesting info on that site.


----------



## dsl1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> dsl1,
> 
> You should find the following page quite interesting:
> DIY Port Flares
> 
> It states that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is also a lot of other interesting info on that site.




Okay so I would make the port length 5in (vs. 5 1/4in with 1/2in roundover) including the wood for the L/R and a 3/4in roundover. Did everyone go and buy a bit of 1in MDF for that small part of the port on the L/R or just make the port an extra 1/4in in length?


Sorry for all the questions. I've got my surrounds pretty much finished and am starting the center next!


----------



## kroberts1972

dsl1,

I aggree with your port length calculation of 5. I think a lot of people doubled up the .75 mdf to make 1.5 for the internal port support. I calculated the extra volume, and if my calculations are right, adding .19" to your depth would compensate for the extra volume.

I haven't built the fronts yet, I am in the process of building the center, so someone else may be able to tell you if they think this will even make a difference.


----------



## SVonhof

dsl1, I am not sure about your calculations. If it is accepted to subtract 1/2 of the flare radius from the length of the port, you are going the wrong way as I understand it. Also, if it calls for a 1/2" roundover and you are going to use a 3/4" roundover instead, it should be half of the radius, which is 3/8 compared to half of the radius of a 1/2"=1/4"


So your difference between using a 1/2 inch or a 3/4 inch radius is only 1/8" when it is divided in 2 and you need to ADD the number to your port length, since with the radii on there, it thinks the port is shorter and you need a specific length.


Does all that make sense?


----------



## dsl1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> dsl1, I am not sure about your calculations. If it is accepted to subtract 1/2 of the flare radius from the length of the port, you are going the wrong way as I understand it. Also, if it calls for a 1/2" roundover and you are going to use a 3/4" roundover instead, it should be half of the radius, which is 3/8 compared to half of the radius of a 1/2"=1/4"
> 
> 
> So your difference between using a 1/2 inch or a 3/4 inch radius is only 1/8" when it is divided in 2 and you need to ADD the number to your port length, since with the radii on there, it thinks the port is shorter and you need a specific length.
> 
> 
> Does all that make sense?




Hum I think I am right.


"A flared port couples to the surrounding air more efficiently than an unflared one, meaning that the flared port appears shorter. The generally accepted adjustment is to subtract half the flare radius from the physical length to obtain the acoustic length. If both ends of the port are flared, the adjustment is done for each flare."


Because the bigger the flare the more efficent the port is. The plans call for a 5 1/4in with a half inch roundover. If this information about the flaring making the port more efficent I am assuming that one would need a 5 3/4in port without any flares. 5 1/4 in port + 1/2 of the radius of both roundovers (each 1/2) means I add 1/2in to the total length because the port is unflared and therefor less efficent. Now because a 3/4 flare is more efficent I need to subtract 1/2 of the radius of both flares from the port length. 5 3/4 - (3/4 + 3/4)1/2 = 5in port length including both the flared wood pieces.


Please correct me if I am wrong.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> dsl1,
> 
> I aggree with your port length calculation of 5. I think a lot of people doubled up the .75 mdf to make 1.5 for the internal port support. I calculated the extra volume, and if my calculations are right, adding .19" to your depth would compensate for the extra volume.
> 
> I haven't built the fronts yet, I am in the process of building the center, so someone else may be able to tell you if they think this will even make a difference.




If you are starting on the left and rights next you will probably get there before me and can let me know what you did. I still need to get port tube for the center, finish cutting the pieces, and glue it together. Hopefully this weekend i'll have the box finished. I'm hoping to find some cardboard tube that is the right size. Rounding over pvc pipe with a roundover doesn't seem like it would be too clean.


Did you calculate using .75in thick mdf for the internal port support? The plans are using a 1in thick piece.



My building is on hold till my new bearing for my flush trim bit shows up. Hopefully today or tomorrow.


----------



## mh7519




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsl1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm hoping to find some cardboard tube that is the right size. Rounding over pvc pipe with a roundover doesn't seem like it would be too clean.
> 
> .



check this out for tips on the port installation:
http://speakerbuilder.net/web_files/...ut/porttut.htm


----------



## Jeff Hovis

dsl1,

Wayne J's site that mh7519 linked is a great place to look. As for using PVC, I installed mine and then used a roundover bit to flare it. It worked very well for mine. I've been able to get flared tubes for all my other speaker projects.


----------



## kroberts1972

dsl1,

I used a 1.5 inch thickness for the internal brace when I did my extra depth calculations due to the center support.


----------



## kroberts1972

Here are some pictures of my construction. I went with the overkill of a separate compartment in the back for the xovers. Here is a pic before the top is on with caulk. Yes, it is a very messy caulk job.
Top View 


My only concern is the distance between the inside wall of the xover cavity and the back wall of the mid sub encloure. It is 2.25", and I hope that is not somehow a port that couples the 2 midbass speakers.


Here is the back xover cavity after routing. This is the worst looking router job I have done so far. Routing the rebate for the cover was a little shaky at the top and bottom because there wasn't much for the router base to rest on. Luckily this is at the back.
Back Cover Off 


Here is the back with the cover on. I did the rounded corners with a coping saw and I freehanded some lines in for the rounds. I probably should have come up with a better way because the corners don't match up really well. I am going to use industrial strength velcro to hold the cover on, and also plan to use velcro for the xovers. I have used this velcro on other projects, like a guitar pedal board, and it holds really well.
Back With Cover 


Now, my plan for finishing is to do a flat black baffle and cherry veneer on the body with a Sedona Red Minwax stain that I have in my garage already, followed by wipe on poly with the clear followed by satin method Jim Salk outlined earlier in this post. As far as the baffle, I want it very flat black. JL, since you seem to be the king of flat finishes, do you think Aniline dye on MDF would look good for the baffle or kilz/black paint with dead flat, or just kilz/flat black paint? Your dyed stands look very flat in the picture, but I can't get a good feel for what it really looks like up close from the picture.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> JL, since you seem to be the king of flat finishes, do you think Aniline dye on MDF would look good for the baffle or kilz/black paint with dead flat, or just kilz/flat black paint?



kroberts1972,

The finish you get would depend upon what you are looking for.


If you want speakers that reflect very little light, then yes, MDF dyed flat black with analine dye will do it.


If you want something looking closer to what you will see in a commercial speaker, then a flat black paint might work. Be very careful with the glue on the joints of the enclosure if you take this approach, since the dye does not soak into "glue-soaked MDF" as well as bare MDF.


You might want to experiment on a scrap or two of MDF *before* you put the finish on the actual front of your enclosure. Just remember, "satin" finish has a lot of gloss... less than "gloss" finish, but not "flat"


Way back in this thread I posted the name of the "dead-flat spray lacquer" I used to seal the finish. It worked out well for me, but is not as easy to find in a local hardware store. (you can mail-order it though)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your dyed stands look very flat in the picture, but I can't get a good feel for what it really looks like up close from the picture.



That's because they really don't reflect much and to even get the photos I did I had to boost the gamma in a photo-editor to be able to show any detail at all.


----------



## kroberts1972

JL,

I have already tested a satin spray paint and found out it was too glossy. I was thinking I would get the dead flat and spray it either on dyed MDF or the satin spray paint. I will only be using this on the front baffle, and it is going to be glued on after it is painted or dyed, so I don't have to worry about joints with glue. The rest of the cabinet will be veneered while the baffle is still removed.


I put 4 dowels in the front baffle to allow it to be accurately located on the front of the cabinet. This way I can round the edges and cut the speaker holes, then remove it and paint it, then glue it on after finishing it and the cabinet. Of course I will have to be very careful when gluing it on.


How well does the dye soak into the harder top portion of the mdf? My MDF has about 1/16" of hard mdf on the surface that I don't think I will sand all the way through.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> JL,
> 
> How well does the dye soak into the harder top portion of the mdf? My MDF has about 1/16" of hard mdf on the surface that I don't think I will sand all the way through.



In this photo you can see the front and rear stands before application of finish. Most of the surface is the "harder" top portion of the MDF. The edges are all rounded over and are all the "softer" cut edge.











I applied no sealer to the MDF and simply brushed the water based aniliine dye mixture on. I think they got two coats of dye. You cannot easily tell the softer material from the harder MDF once finished. (You might have to load this photo into your picture editor in otder to boost the gamma to see much detail... like I said, they do not reflect much light)


After the dye, the rear channel stands and front L/R looked like this... Note that the rear channel and center channel speaker enclosures have a satin finish and are not dead flat like the front L/R channel enclosures.


----------



## dsl1

What should I do to add extra bracing for the center channel? I am sure this question is answered somewhere in the last 70 pages so sorry for asking.


I already cut the bottom the pieces and trimmed them to the right sizes so I hope I do not have to add any extra volume to the enclosure for the bracing. If i have to remake the top and bottom pieces again thats okay if the bracing is important.


I got all my cutouts in the front and back done but I am still waiting on a new flush trim bit. Should be here wednesday. Port tube is installed in the back piece.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I built mine as well as another using the stock plans. I did double the baffles to 1.5-inches. All other panels were 3/4"



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsl1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What should I do to add extra bracing for the center channel? I am sure this question is answered somewhere in the last 70 pages so sorry for asking.
> 
> 
> I already cut the bottom the pieces and trimmed them to the right sizes so I hope I do not have to add any extra volume to the enclosure for the bracing. If i have to remake the top and bottom pieces again thats okay if the bracing is important.
> 
> 
> I got all my cutouts in the front and back done but I am still waiting on a new flush trim bit. Should be here wednesday. Port tube is installed in the back piece.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsl1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What should I do to add extra bracing for the center channel? I am sure this question is answered somewhere in the last 70 pages so sorry for asking.



I added two small pieces of MDF between the midrange enclosure and the outer side walls. I did not change any dimensions to account for the volume they occupied. They were positioned high enough to not block the ports in any way. I force fit them first (they were a real tight fit) and then glued them in place.


Joe L.


You can see those two braces in the enclosure in this picture when looking through the woofer cutouts.


----------



## dsl1

Great thanks. My new flush trim bit should be here early next week and I can finish off the center.


----------



## kroberts1972

So I veneered with cherry last night using the iron on method. I did the top bottom and sides with a continuous piece and used a steam iron to bend against the grain around the corners.









Here is the back









and here is the baffle










Overall the iron on method worked OK for me. I had the veneer and the box coated in Elmers wood glue (2 coats), but I still had a few areas that were tough to get down near the edges. I think it is all held down now, I just hope it stays that way.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So I veneered with cherry last night using the iron on method. I did the top bottom and sides with a continuous piece and used a steam iron to bend against the grain around the corners.



kroberts1972,

Wow... that looks really nice.


Joe L.


----------



## kroberts1972

Thanks Joe!

I couldn't be doing this if it wasn't for your account of building the speakers. So far, it is a lot of fun, I can't wait to hear it, but I am trying to be patient so I don't cut too many corners.


----------



## kroberts1972

Here is a picture of my finished Audax Center









I used Minwax Sedona Red Stain with 6 coats of Minwax gloss wipe on poly and 2 coats of Minwax Satin Wipe On Poly. There are some drips in it, but you can't see them very well and I want to use it, so I am going to call it a day with the poly. This was a great first experience building a real speaker, previously I had only built a few particle board bass boxes when I was a teenager, that was quite a few years ago now.


Here is a picture of the back crossover compartment










Here is a picture of the back closed up










When I installed the midrange driver, it chipped off a little of the flat black around the mid driver, you can see it between 3 & 4 o'clock on the baffle around the mid. I was thinking of trying to put a big spray of the flat black into a small container and then brush it on. Has anyone tried this?


Thanks for all of the great discussion and information.


----------



## SVonhof

Looks awesome. Great job on the choice of finish and everything.


As for the paint, do as you were thinking and it should work out fine.


----------



## kroberts1972

Thanks Scott. After one coat of stain, I was a little worried, but 2 coats got the stain the way I wanted it. Then as I added coats of poly, it just kept looking better and better. The flat black worked out nice on the baffle too. It doesn't reflect any light and the speaker dissapears with the lights off even though it is pretty close to the bottom of my screen.


----------



## M NEWMAN

Looks great - now, just crack open a beer and enjoy those puppies. As for your little scrape boo-boo, try using a Sharpie marker to color in the black. I use this method all the time on black objects to fix "so-called" boo-boos.


----------



## kroberts1972

Thanks Mike, the sharpie idea worked pretty good. Probably just as good as trying to brushpaint flat spray paint on there.


----------



## J. L.

kroberts1972,


Simply awesome. That is a beautiful looking center channel.


How did you finally finish the front? I know you said the first black paint you tried was too glossy, and I can see you primed the front before spraying on the black finish. You asked about my black analine dye on MDF, clearly you did not use it as you said it was a sprayed finish.


Was from a spray can? What brand and type? Hardly any reflections at all exist in the picture. Good that it disappears when you turn the lights down and watch a movie. Very nice color on the sides and back of the enclosure.


You have come a long way since the particle board bass boxes you built as a teenager.


Now... tell us what you think of its sound. What did it replace? Are you planning to build the left and right channels to match?


Joe L.


----------



## kroberts1972

Joe,

The spray paint is Americas Finest flat black spray, made by Rust Oleum. I think I got it at Lowes. It does a great job of dissapearing, but it isn't super durable so I have to be careful. Is the dead flat durable? If so, I will probably order that and try it over gloss or satin for the next speakers. Next in line are the fronts and rears. I have a little more vacation time than my wife, so I will be taking off a week before the end of the year to work on them. I will also be getting a table saw to help with the effort.


It replaced an infinity center from the HTS 20 system. I bought it about 4 years ago. It is a huge improvement. Last night speech was clearer, but it had a bump in the mids and the lows weren't quite as present as I had hoped. This morning I realized I had forgotten the fiberfill and after letting the speaker play all day and putting the fiberfill in, it sounds awesome. It seems that the bass response is much better than last night after the break in, and the mids are much smoother and less harsh with the fiberfill. A great replacement. A friend of mine from out of town showed up unexpectedly tonight and he didn't believe I had built it myself. I am very satisfied with this speaker.


Kevin


----------



## SVonhof

Kevin, you may want to try a little experament with some of your black paint and top it off with some of the ultra-flat laquer that Joe and I have both used. It should put a coating on the paint so that it isn't as sensitive to touch as well as oils (from hands...) making it shiny.


----------



## kroberts1972

Thanks Scott,

I will definitely try that. I will order it and do some tests before I finish the next set of speakers.


Kevin


----------



## Gyvven

Kroberts1972,


That center is really beatiful to look at.


I did mine about a year ago. They're Dennis Murphy's MB20's. I'll post pics soon. I couldn't have done it with out some of the guidance from the guys here.


The right and left are my first attempts and I was so excited I rushed the box making a little. I didn't have anything but a 3/8" roundover bit and a sander. Finish is 3 coats eggshell latex, rolled on. Sounds great, looks like a freshman woodshop project, but you can't see it during a movie.


The center I took more time, bought more bits and tools, and enjoyed the process more. Finish is 6 coats eggshell latex, sprayed on, with 300 grit sandings between coats. This takes a LONG time considering it took me about an hour to clean the sprayer after each coat, but the results were worth it. Sounds great, looks decent, absolutley invisible while watching movies.


I have to say in the past several months I've had these, I've had more complements on the sound quality than I could have hoped for. A few friends have promised to scrap their bose systems (or ideas of buyingthem) and replace with a set of these. At about $100 each for parts you really can't go wrong.


I recently started another pair and I'm going to try my hand at veneering. I picked up some Tiger Maple veneer and I'm experimenting with methods of attachment. So far my favorite method has been epoxy resin because I have a ton of it and it doesn't discolor if it bleeds at the edges. But I will need to buy more tools







to do the seams right. Any ideas on how best to finish these for a natural look without being glossy? Would some sort of poly work? (These are going to replace my current left and right, with the originals either getting new boxes or just religated to surrounds.) After this project, and once my woodworking skills and patience has increased, I'm thinking of doing the Audax system.


----------



## rtuimauga

This forum will never cease to amaze me. I am of course a noobie and I am in the process of building my HT. I don't mean to hijack this great thread but can you guys suggest a DIY kit that I should get ? I have no experience whatsoever with electronics or crossovers but I'm a pretty good woodworker. I figure if I built the cabinets myself I could probably have a more higher end system for less $$$. I was thinking of doing the Audax kit as I'm very impressed with the looks of it but do you guys have any other suggestions ? My room size is 16x23 but will upgrade to a bigger one in the near future. Also what are you guys using to run these speakers ? Separates or Receivers ? Any help will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## DonoMan

I would EASILY recommend http://www.timn8er.com/alegria_audio_rosa_tl.htm


----------



## moonhawk

Be sure to check out Noth Creek Music...

http://northcreekmusic.com/


----------



## SVonhof

Hey rtuimauga, maybe if you let people know where you live, you can find somebody in this thread that has a kit or DIY design in use? Heck, I found out there was a guy in my city that ended up making the Audax speakers.


----------



## rtuimauga




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey rtuimauga, maybe if you let people know where you live, you can find somebody in this thread that has a kit or DIY design in use? Heck, I found out there was a guy in my city that ended up making the Audax speakers.




Sorry. I'm in Kansas city, MO


----------



## SVonhof

Anyone know if he's around anyone on the forum who has done a kit?


----------



## kroberts1972

Gyvven,

For a flat finish, I haven't tried it, but Joe L. used a product called Dead Flat over analine dye, so you should might able to use it over bare wood. Dead Flat is made by a company named Behlen. I am going to get some to try out for my next set of baffles. I used flat black on the center and I am looking for something more durable.


I used 2 coats of satin wipe on poly over 6 coats of gloss wipe on poly and it isn't a flat finish. The gloss is used to build up a good amount of poly before putting the satin on so it doesn't end up looking milky. It still has a good amount of gloss to it, but from a seated position, you don't see it in my ht, just the flat black baffle.


----------



## SVonhof

I used the same stuff as Joe L. when I made my equipment rack. No shine at all. When you are spraying it on, you see the shine, which is good so you can see where you just sprayed it, but by the time it dries, you don't see gloss at all.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

rtuimauga,

My first speaker was the 18" cylinder w/a 15" subwoofer. My second speaker was the Audax center channel followed by the rest of the Audax HT speakers. They are actually pretty easy to assemble. I used pegboard for my xovers and I attached the xover components with cable ties. It was all very neat and I'm still loving them. There are some nice webpages that show you how to read an xover schematic and assemble them. I liked this one on the Solen site: http://www.solen.ca/cross.htm I've since built a set of MBOW1s, Dayton 2-ways, Buschhorns, another subwoofer, and I'm now building some large corner horns for 2-channel.


QUOTE=rtuimauga]This forum will never cease to amaze me. I am of course a noobie and I am in the process of building my HT. I don't mean to hijack this great thread but can you guys suggest a DIY kit that I should get ? I have no experience whatsoever with electronics or crossovers but I'm a pretty good woodworker. I figure if I built the cabinets myself I could probably have a more higher end system for less $$$. I was thinking of doing the Audax kit as I'm very impressed with the looks of it but do you guys have any other suggestions ? My room size is 16x23 but will upgrade to a bigger one in the near future. Also what are you guys using to run these speakers ? Separates or Receivers ? Any help will be greatly appreciated.[/quote]


----------



## kroberts1972

Guys,

Due to placement restrictions, I am thinking of flying the rear speakers of the Audax set. Does anyone know of a discussion thread on this, or a good way to integrate a good looking attachment into the speakers? I was thinking of a hole drilled in the top of the speakers from the front to back with a metal rod in it before the baffle and second back layer were installed. Then, removing a small amount of the wood to expose the rod in 2 points along each side, leaving me attachment points.


Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks,

Kevin


----------



## moonhawk

Couldn't find the link, but Omni-mount, or omnimount, (dot com) makes a full line of high end wall and ceiling mounts.


----------



## SVonhof

I would not suggest what you were saying, just get something like Moonhawk pointed out and screw it to the back of the speaker. Simple. No need for anything more extravagent.


These are the ones I used and are at Best Buy:

















They are made to hold speakers up to 25 pounds each.


----------



## SVonhof

BTW, if you need to ceiling mount them, you may need a different model. I mounted mine to the wall and the one shown in the package worked fine, the lower pic shows the ceiling mount.


----------



## moonhawk

 http://www.omnimountpro.com/


----------



## kroberts1972

Scott,

Were you talking to me when you said I don't need anything more extravagent?

I would like to use the ceiling mount bracket you showed, but I have 10' ceileings, so I was thinking of flying them so that I could get the bottoms of the speakers down to 7'. The problem is that I have an opening on one side of my room, so I don't have any wall there. If I just mount to the 10' ceiling and aim at the listening position will I be OK? I would certainly prefer that.


----------



## moonhawk

Go to the link I sent...They have all kinds of extensions and mounting systems so you can extend them down to whatever level you like....


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Scott,
> 
> Were you talking to me when you said I don't need anything more extravagent?
> 
> I would like to use the ceiling mount bracket you showed, but I have 10' ceileings, so I was thinking of flying them so that I could get the bottoms of the speakers down to 7'. The problem is that I have an opening on one side of my room, so I don't have any wall there. If I just mount to the 10' ceiling and aim at the listening position will I be OK? I would certainly prefer that.



Yes, I was talking to you. Sorry, should have done the quote thing like this to make sure you knew that. I would reccomend putting the speakers up at the ceiling level and point them. That is one reason why receivers/processors have the whole distance thing in the set-up as well as individual volume control. Once you get everything set up, do the whole measurement thing and get an SPL meter and get all the volumes set equal based on a test tone.


Hanging speakers from a ceiling down 3 feet would either be problematic by having long rods hanging or cable or something like that. It would be too much work to get them set properly using cables so that leaves you with a rod and bracket. It's only 3 feet difference, I would hang them up close to the ceiling.


----------



## kroberts1972

Thanks Scott! I'll give that a shot. It will make my life a whole lot easier.


----------



## dsl1

I just finished my Audax Center channel except veener which I am not even sure i'll do considering I am going to be building an acoustically transparent screen and the center is going behind it.


Anyhow WOW!


This is one crisp and clean sounding speaker. Far better then my friends fairly high end Klipsch center channel. I am very happy and am looking forward to it being totally broken in. Enclosures for the surrounds are built and I have to build the L/R enclosures. This is going to be an amazing system for the price.


----------



## kroberts1972

Awesome dsl1, I am really enjoying mine as it breaks in. Next week I will start on the fronts and surrounds. I just got a ryobi bt3100 table saw and my wife will be out of town for 9 days, so I will be doing a lot of work.


Kevin


----------



## dsl1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Awesome dsl1, I am really enjoying mine as it breaks in. Next week I will start on the fronts and surrounds. I just got a ryobi bt3100 table saw and my wife will be out of town for 9 days, so I will be doing a lot of work.
> 
> 
> Kevin




I'm going shopping tomorrow so hopefully i'll have time to grab some more MDF for the left and right speakers and the screen frame. Second speaker goes much much faster then the first speaker and when you are building two of the same speakers you can make one peice of wood the right size and then flush trim the rest to that size. You will speed through the next speakers. In 9 days you can have those speakers built and broken in already







Then start on a sub quickly while your wife is away


----------



## Vper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsl1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm going shopping tomorrow so hopefully i'll have time to grab some more MDF for the left and right speakers and the screen frame.



How are you going to make a/the screen frame? I'd like to make one, grandkids...


----------



## SVonhof

There is a DIY Screen forum here within AVS, there should be more information than you ever thought you needed over there. DIY screen section


----------



## Jeff Hovis

As Scott said, go to the diy screen section. I built one from Dazian acoustically transparent screen fabric. There are a couple of threads on this type of screen. It works great! I replaced a Dalite screen with it. My total cost was ~$100.


----------



## technimac









Once again PE has the Audax AP 170 ZO on a DOTD sale for $24ea until tomorrow. Limit is 8.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...65&dotd=111005


----------



## SVonhof

Hmm, I have been thinking about making some new speakers, something with 3 mids and two tweeters each and the squared off flanges of my Audax HM170C0's was a pain. I like the round ones on the one's on sale.


Hmm.


----------



## Yeldarb43

I may jump in now and build my own. I've read just about the entire thread but I still wondering about placement? The literature says 3 feet from a wall. Is that absolutely necessary? If i fudge it a little bit how much of a diff is there? Anyone experimeted with this?


Also anyone have any recomendations for the quality of crossover parts at parts express. Which brands should i get?


----------



## dsl1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Yeldarb43* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I may jump in now and build my own. I've read just about the entire thread but I still wondering about placement? The literature says 3 feet from a wall. Is that absolutely necessary? If i fudge it a little bit how much of a diff is there? Anyone experimeted with this?
> 
> 
> Also anyone have any recomendations for the quality of crossover parts at parts express. Which brands should i get?




You check madisound's kits? They turn out to be about the same price as the parts from parts express. If you still do feel like building your own crossovers by all means go ahead but understand its a hassle you don't need to deal with and you still get the same preformance.


While 3 feet from a wall is just an ideal placement. If you can't do this it will still sound fine although maybe not quite as great. Remember the LCR's are ported so you will need to have some room behind the speakers so they can "breath"


----------



## rtuimauga

Ok I'm really looking into doing the Audax HT kit now and need a few ?'s answered before I pull the trigger. First to those who have built these and have them in use, how are these compared to brand name speakers ? I mean it's gonna cost me about $1k for the kit and materials to build but if I was to buy ready made name brand speakers with the same quality as these how much would I expect to pay ? What kind of receiver would do these things justice ? I'm currently looking at Yamaha RX-V4600, Denon AVR-3806 & 4806, and HK 7300. Any suggestions ? Also if I wanted to do 7.1 are there dipole/bipoles that can be made to go with these speakers ? I think thats it for now, any help will be appreciated.


----------



## rtuimauga

Anyone ?


----------



## kroberts1972

rtuimauga,

I only have the center done, but I am currently working on the fronts and rears. In previous posts the center has been compared to those costing around $1000. I haven't done any head to head comparisons in my HT, but the center is a huge improvement over my old infinity center from the HTS20 system. I am using a Yamaha HTR-5860 and it works fine with the center, and it should work fine with the others. There is discussion of recievers farther back in the thread.


----------



## BigguyZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rtuimauga* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok I'm really looking into doing the Audax HT kit now and need a few ?'s answered before I pull the trigger. First to those who have built these and have them in use, how are these compared to brand name speakers ? I mean it's gonna cost me about $1k for the kit and materials to build but if I was to buy ready made name brand speakers with the same quality as these how much would I expect to pay ? What kind of receiver would do these things justice ? I'm currently looking at Yamaha RX-V4600, Denon AVR-3806 & 4806, and HK 7300. Any suggestions ? Also if I wanted to do 7.1 are there dipole/bipoles that can be made to go with these speakers ? I think thats it for now, any help will be appreciated.




Any of those recievers should be fine to run the Audax set. However, it depends on how large a space you have. I have a smallish living room, and I have absolutely no issues running my Pioneer 1014.


As far as how the speakers sound compared to retail.... Well IMHO I think there's no comparison. I've sold home audio at a well-known electronics retailer, and the markup from wholesale to retail alone is rediculous. If you know someone who can get you a employee purchase deal- direct from the manufacturer- then it's not a bad deal. But if that's not available to you, it's generall agreed that you'd have to spend at least 2.5-3x at a retail store for the same quality. Some say you'd have to spend as much as 4x the DIY cost, but I don't quite buy that. it you don't have the tools necessary, then the DIY cost is much, much higher.


Keep in mind, DIY is a hobby as well. It's hard to just build one thing and be done with it. And with store bought, you don't have the pride of telling people you built those beautiful sounding speakers.


----------



## runninkyle17

I am looking to make a DIY center. I like the Audax, but the Audax is just too tall for my tastes. Is there any other really nice DIY center plans that are not so tall and boxy. I have Fluance AV-HTB fronts and surrounds, I would just like to make my own center because I am really curious about getting into DIY audio and home theater. Can't wait to hear everyone's comments.


-Kyle


----------



## SVonhof

rtuimauga, any info on the room these would go into? bi or di-poles may not be what you should be using. Depends on the room and how the side speakers would be mounted (where). If the side speakers are far enough away, I would think using the same design as the rear speakers would work fine. That's the easy way. The other way would be to get in touch with Madisound's LEAP department, let them know you are doing the Audax kit and are going to make some di-poles to match and you want them to design a crossover for you. You could have the midrange mount on the front and the tweeters on the sides, or go for the gusto and do mids and tweets facing both forward and backwards.


----------



## rtuimauga

Guys, thanks for the responses and comments. It makes things a whole lot easier. Like I said in my first post here, I have no knowledge with Xovers, speaker building or anything but I am a decent woodworker. Will the kits from Madisound be easy enough to follow for a novice like myself ? Where can I find the build sheets/instructions for building the cabinets ? Also what DIY subwoofer would complement the Audax kit the most ? I need to look into that also.



> Quote:
> rtuimauga, any info on the room these would go into? bi or di-poles may not be what you should be using. Depends on the room and how the side speakers would be mounted (where).



The room size right now is only 10'x20'. I know it isn't huge but it will be. This is just a temp. setup until I put it into a room almost 2x the size. The bi/dipoles will be mounted on the side walls.


> Quote:
> get in touch with Madisound's LEAP department,



Could not find a link to these guys on their website.


----------



## dsl1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *runninkyle17* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am looking to make a DIY center. I like the Audax, but the Audax is just too tall for my tastes. Is there any other really nice DIY center plans that are not so tall and boxy. I have Fluance AV-HTB fronts and surrounds, I would just like to make my own center because I am really curious about getting into DIY audio and home theater. Can't wait to hear everyone's comments.
> 
> 
> -Kyle




You can change the dimensions of the center channel as long as you keep the internal volume the same. You still have to make it big enough to fit the drivers though










However check this center out.

http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...ure/index.html


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rtuimauga* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The room size right now is only 10'x20'. I know it isn't huge but it will be. This is just a temp. setup until I put it into a room almost 2x the size. The bi/dipoles will be mounted on the side walls.
> 
> 
> 
> Could not find a link to these guys on their website.



rtuimauga, click here to read about their services: http://www.madisound.com/leap.html I guess you just need to call them and tell them what you want to do and they will direct you to the right extension.


FYI, I assume you are already planning on making the speakers to fit into the larger room, as that will be the final configuration? If not, I would suggest it. Actually, I would probably only suggest that you do 5.1 for the small room and add the two side speakers to get to 7.1 when you switch to the larger room.


BTW, if you get close to 2x the size of 10'x20', that will be a VERY large room if you are going to use the whole area for a home theater. I hope you are not limited to 8' ceiling height for that!


----------



## Jeff Hovis

rtuimauga,

A couple of years ago, after building my Audax, I compared the center to some high-end speakers. I really thought it sounded as good as some and better than others. I'd say you'd have to spend at least $1k to be comparable or better than the center in build quailty and sound. I also did a weight comparison using a copy of one of the HT mags. They were doing their annual listing of AV equipment specs. I looked at center channel speakers that were of similar weight to ours and if I recall correctly, they were all over $1k. Now I know that is no true comparison because we could easily put crap drivers and no xovers into a heavy box. But, that isn't what we've done with our Audax. The weight comparison does tell us that speakers with quality cabinets will not be cheap. FYI, my center channel and it's stand weigh over 100lbs. The speaker weighs ~50lbs.


I built a full 7 speaker set of Audax. I'd say you'd have to spend over $2.5k to do better. I built a cylinder sub and I figure it would also cost ~$1k if I bought it.


I see you have the HK7300 listed. I have the HK7200 which was the previous model and I love it. It has HUGE power! Like the Audax center channel, it's a behemoth and you'll need a very strong shelf to support it's weight. I'm pretty sure JL still has his 7200 also. It really depends on the sound you like. The HK has a warm sound. I used to have a Denon and I think it was also a warm sounding unit. I think the Yamahas are a bit brighter.


The best thing anyone can do to get the full potential of their speaker system is to TREAT their room. My dedicated HT is acoustically treated on all four walls. The front wall is treated from floor to ceiling. Also, the side walls in the front are treated floor to ceiling for the first three feet. The rest of the walls are treated from the floor up to four feet.


If you can, get a dedicated circuit to power your system. I have a 20amp breaker just for the amps and pj in the HT.


----------



## girandolas




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *J. L.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I traded a few messages with the guru's on the IB cult forum and think I'm going to face both drivers forward as in the following 3D illustration.
> 
> 
> 
> Pictures will follow as construction progresses...
> 
> 
> Joe L.




Any progress Joe?


----------



## SVonhof

Yeah Joe, what ever happened to the stage that would be a sub?


----------



## rtuimauga




> Quote:
> Where can I find the build sheets/instructions for building the cabinets ?



Anyone have a link ?



> Quote:
> Also what DIY subwoofer would complement the Audax kit the most ?



I seen one made out of a sonotube once, will this work and where can I find out more about it ?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

The first speaker I ever built was a cylinder sub built from a sono tube. That was over 3-yrs ago. I still have a link to the build site.
http://europa70.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rtuimauga* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone have a link ?
> 
> 
> I seen one made out of a sonotube once, will this work and where can I find out more about it ?


----------



## rtuimauga

Jeff,


Would you recommend this sub for my Audax Kit ? How do you like it ?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

First to answer your quesions: 1. YES. 2. Love it.


It's pretty easy to build and will blow away most any other sub in the


----------



## QuabbDude

It's taken me three weeks to get through this entire thread...


You guys have made some beautiful speakers, and your attention to detail is astounding.


A question. As i consider the option of making these, a WAF thing comes to mind (I showed my wife some of the pictures in the thread), I am curious if any of you have considered the full finished look with a speakercloth/grill front? Not that the open speaker look isn't cool, but I was curious about anyone's thoughts on this.


Again, fabulous work here guys...


-Randy


----------



## Jeff Hovis

My center channel has a grille. I only did it because in our old HT, it was low and I didn't want little fingers poking the drivers. Now, they're all behind a false wall and an acoustically transparent screen.


You can get the little plastic guides at Parts Express. I think they also have magnetic ones.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....ctGroup_ID=141


----------



## BigguyZ

Nothing wrong with grilles. But for me, it's another thing to break. I don't have kids, so I don't have to hide the drivers. You have to specially clean grilles using a vacuum. and I like the look of the drivers.


----------



## SVonhof

There are other reasons not to use grilles. They can detract from the sound. If the face of the drivers are sitting flush with the front baffle and you have a grille that extends out from that same face, you now have something in the way of the sound wave as it develops and leaves the cone. The best sounding speakers are ones with either no grille at all or a grille that does not protrude and effect the sound wave. Now, remember, that what I am saying is based off of opinions and testing done by people with what some people call "Golden ears". Normal people will never notice the difference and in the world of home theater, you have too many other things that you are trying to overcome, so worrying about the grilles and sound waves may be overkill.


Anyway, just an opinion.


I didn't want grilles on mine when I first made them and had them on display, now the main and rear speakers are wrapped with grille cloth so they blend in with the surroundings. The only drivers I can see are the center channel.


----------



## rtuimauga

Okay..........now I've seen THESE and was wondering if anyone has any experience with these or have even heard them. What do you guys think ? They cost alot more than the Audax kit but will the difference be worth it ?


----------



## moonhawk

Northcreek, dude....


----------



## Jeff Hovis

If you are looking for something different than the Audax kit, check out GR Research
http://www.gr-research.com/ 

Also as moonhawk said, there is Northcreek. The kits from Adire were also good. However, I don't think they are in the diy market any longer.


----------



## Dougie085

wow i just realised i finally made it through this whole thread lol only took me like 3 days though  anyways has anyone actually used or heard the gr-research speakers i was looking at them and i like their designs a lot and i wanted to use floor standings for the fronts and they have a floor standing kit so just curious how they compare to the audax kit are they better? or at least equal sounding? the whole kit cost would be a little more but still within my budget as i was planning on buying a whole Klipsch Reference line HT and this will be much cheaper and as good if not better from what i read thanks in advanced for any help


----------



## Teran

Dennis Murphy uses the GR M130 Woofer in one of his designs.

MBOW1 Speaker


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I have a set of MBOW1 in my upstairs 2-channel system. The xovers are what make Dennis' speakers so nice. I will say the Hiquphon OW1 tweets are maybe too much for the GRs. If I ever find a speaker design that uses them, I may pull them out and build something else with them.


I still haven't started building my corner horns. I have all the components and they're going to be huge. I just can't decide how I want to finish them.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Teran* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dennis Murphy uses the GR M130 Woofer in one of his designs.
> 
> MBOW1 Speaker


----------



## Dougie085

would they be good for a home theatre setup though in like 5.1 or possiby 7.1? and if not do you know another kit that has Floor standing speakers that would be great for surround sound? of course i just want the floor standings for my fronts but i want a speaker system that will be better then the klipsch's i wanted which would be the RB-35's with the matching surrounds


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I've heard most of the GR speakers. IMO, they are comparable to the Audax but I think they are a little more expensive. There is a company east of Atlanta that builds them. They also supply GR with ready to use cabinets. I've heard the AV1, 2, 3 and the center channel. They have also built the giant GR Line Array. Check out Rutledge Audio Design (RAD): http://www.radhometheater.com/services.htm 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dougie085* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> wow i just realised i finally made it through this whole thread lol only took me like 3 days though  anyways has anyone actually used or heard the gr-research speakers i was looking at them and i like their designs a lot and i wanted to use floor standings for the fronts and they have a floor standing kit so just curious how they compare to the audax kit are they better? or at least equal sounding? the whole kit cost would be a little more but still within my budget as i was planning on buying a whole Klipsch Reference line HT and this will be much cheaper and as good if not better from what i read thanks in advanced for any help


----------



## Dougie085

so then you at least like them as much as the audax?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Yes, if you want a floor stander, these are pretty darned good speakers. The AV3 is what you want if you're looking for a floorstander. IMO, the Audax CC stands out because it is a true CC and not a standard speaker turned on it's side. I also listened to the Adire speakers and they were very nice. However, I still liked the clarity of the Audax center better than the Adire. I compared the Audax to a high-end Meadowlark speaker that was over $1,000 and was was still VERY happy!




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dougie085* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> so then you at least like them as much as the audax?


----------



## Dougie085

well GR Research has a sealed center channel which will make all my speakers sealed which isnt really a bad thing...im not sure whats better sealed or ported im sure it depends on the speaker and what not but i would use the the AV 3's for fronts the AV 3S for the center and the AV1RS for the rears sound like a good setup? also would it be worth it to do their little cap upgrade to the Sonicaps? they say that they're better


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dougie085* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> would they be good for a home theatre setup though in like 5.1 or possiby 7.1? and if not do you know another kit that has Floor standing speakers that would be great for surround sound? of course i just want the floor standings for my fronts but i want a speaker system that will be better then the klipsch's i wanted which would be the RB-35's with the matching surrounds




You do know than you can pretty much make any bookshelf type speaker, even the Audax also as a floor stander type if you want to. By basically just building it as a taller tower/floor stander, instead of a "bookshelf" type, and that it is separated internally by a divider. All you need to do is keep the internal volume and size of the enclosure of top part where the speakers are, at the same amounts/size as shown in the Audax plans. And then the lower part (the floor standing part) can be made as a extension of that, and pretty much as anything and as any size/height that you want it to be at.


----------



## Dougie085

yea i havnt really thought about that i was looking for plans for a floor standing because then i know that it wont go wrong and get messed up lol i also want somthing that sounds amazing which im sure the audax do i dont know the gr research av3's they have on the site just look really nice and its kind of interesting how the mids overlap the tweeter and they offer parts upgrades for their crossover design like the Sonicap so i thought maybe their crossover components are better quality but im not sure its been a long time sence i was in electronics classes lol dont remember a lot







also i dont really like having dead cavities that do nothing im not a person that has somthing just for looks really i like it to be functional and if i did that they would bassically be on stands i want the whole cabinet to be functional...maybe i could modify the audax design and add some more mids or somthing lol but i dont know if that would help sound or not would it?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Dougie085,

The setup you described would be very nice. Also, Johnla makes a very good point and I've seen several websites with the Audax built as floorstanders. I even have them bookmarked on my office computer.


Here are my Audax fronts: http://europa70.tripod.com/audax_front_speakers001.htm


----------



## Dougie085

why are northcreeks kits so expensive are their drivers really that much better?


----------



## technimac

rtuimauga,

I'm using a Peerless 10XLS driver paired with the 12XLS Passive Radiator in a 1.5cu/ft box for a sub. The PR is loaded with 625grams of weight and the 10XLS is driven by a PE 250W sub without bass-boost.










My Yamaha RX-V1500 has no trouble driving the 7.1 setup (LFE crossover is set at 80Hz). Integration of the sub with the rest of the system is seamless. It's also an excellent sub for music - with tight bass and no flabbiness at all.


The Peerless combo is very similar to that used by BESL at:

http://www.bamberglab.com/xls.shtml 


This sub is beautifully smooth and flat down to the lower 20's with a -3dB of below 20Hz. The enclosure can be built as a base for your L&R mains (read Audax here) as shown here:

http://www.bamberglab.com/images/s5mtm_large_n.jpg 


If you're looking for the best value in sub construction and performance, search no further than the Quatro 15 paired with a 240W amp from PE. It will work in many different configurations, from 3cu/ft sealed to over 5.5cu/ft vented. Check out what others have to say about it on the PE board.










I would recommend going 7.1. with your system. I've discovered that there are a lot of effects that become thoroughly 3-dimensional when the rear speakers provide that extra bit of spatial sound input. Stick in a demo disk and watch your unsuspecting visitors, sitting in the "sweet spot", duck as planes/missles/torpedoes/bullets...(you get the idea) fly in all different directions across the room.










Rear speakers are the easiest to build and are exactly the same design as the L&R surrounds. Dipole surrounds OTOH are a different matter.


Threre are lots of talented HT builders on this site who can offer you some of the most valuable advice you'll find anywhere. Welcome to the ever-fluid world of HT speaker design and construction










Cheers, Bruce


----------



## jjdche




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dougie085* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> why are northcreeks kits so expensive are their drivers really that much better?




They use more expensive drivers and parts than most DIY kits.


----------



## moonhawk

Puctuation is your friend.....


----------



## Dougie085

well i think im going to do the GR System i described before and then a little later possibly design my own system is hould have more knowledge after building the gr kits which would make designing easier


----------



## SVonhof

Dougie, where are you located? There may be people on here who are close enough to you to where they wouldn't mind letting you audition some of their DIY kits.


Also, just so you know, typically, it is easier to build a sealed cabinet, since the drivers in a sealed configuration are more forgiving. Ported designs have to be right, or the frequency response starts to change fast, where on ported, it just changes the shape of the curve slowly and does not effect the low end frequency response (-f3) point. That said, there are plenty of people on here who have made the Audax kit who can attest for it and have made the cabinets with no problems.


----------



## Dougie085

yea i just wanted to do some floor standings and the gr system seems really nice....most of the time i like to do somthing not everyone is doing have somthing different thats why i was curious if the GR Research speakers are nice but i live in Pittsburgh, PA i havnt seen anyone on here that lives around me yet lol


----------



## Johnla

Dougie,


You may also want to look here for some more ideas on DIY speakers. Because there is quite a few different designs and plans for speakers here.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=6 



This is one of the designs there that I went with lately, and it's a good one. Also it's a good one if you want to build something quickly, as it uses one of the Parts Express pre-made finished cabinets for it's design. But just because it's quick to make, don't take that as meaning it's also a cheap speaker design, either in sound or price. In fact, just the X-over parts alone for building 3 of them can run over $500 with ease, if you use some of the higher end caps that are recommended.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11321


----------



## Dougie085

well i deffinately want to build the cabinets for one it gives me an excuse to purchase some powertools as ive wanted to for a while lol and for the second reason its what seems fun in DIY speakers....plus saves a lot of money :-D but im looking at those links right now thanks for the info id really like something that sounds awsome but i want to keep price no higher then maybe 1300-1500 for the whole set and if at all possibly lower then that say around 1000 but if somthing sounds a lot better then i can justify the cost difference and of course design has a little to do with it because its for my Home Theatre


----------



## Johnla

Well don't worry, they have ones there where you will need to build your own cabinets.

And seeing as how you want a set of floorstanders, then you may be interested in this one.











This is the thread that includes that design, so you may want to start looking there if you're interested in something like that above.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...3&page=1&pp=35 


And this is the area of that thread, where the "cut list" and final X-over design is located.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...=11873&page=16


----------



## Dougie085

Those are awsome lol but....1-1.2k for just the fronts wont be fitting into my budget







id like to have the 5 channels coverd within 1.5k lol and of course the sub will be extra







cant skimp on that i was looking at the company kits because they have rears and centers that are pretty much matched to their fronts. For now i want to do a full kit i think and then a little later design somthing my self or even do somone elses design and see if i can work from there and build up. I know im not going to build one set of speakers and stop there lol this is going to be a new hobby no doubt


----------



## Johnla

Join the forum there and ask around if anyone knows of any designs that will fit your needs both in budget for a set of surrounds and a center channel, and for some floorstanders that may match up with them for the fronts.


----------



## technimac

Hi Jeff,

You mentioned that you have some Audax Floorstanders bookmarked on your computer at work. I'm interested in checking out that approach. I do have one saved photo of an Audax HT main with a side-firing 10" (?) woofer, but forgot to bookmark the source.







If you have that, or anything similar I'd appreciate being able to check it out again.


I've got a couple of Peerless 831727's that I would like to use in sealed 41L bases for Audax HT mains. According to Ken Kantor at Tymphany, this driver was designed (by him) to be used in a sealed configuration of this size. I'm looking for solid bass reinforcement from the front of the sound stage down to about 40Hz. My 10"XLS/12"XLS-PR Sub will easily take care of anything below 40Hz.


Dougie085 was looking for options, and the Natalie P's are another possibility. They're a simplified (and much cheaper) version of the Modulas, using the RS180's and the RS28A.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...hlight=Natalie 


Or there is Chris's MTM using the RS150's with either the Seas 27TDFC or the RS28A tweeter. They could be built as floor-standers quite easily.

http://www.eldamar.net/audio/rs150mtm/ 


Cheers, Bruce


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Bruce,

I am sorry, but I have looked through my bookmarks several times and I can't find the site. Basically the builder built the L/R channel speakers as normal but added length to the sides to make them taller. The bottom of the speakers was placed in it's orignal location and the internal volume of the speakers was the same. The lower portion was just empty. They were filled with sand at the bottom for stability and the rest was filled with insulation.


----------



## technimac

Jeff,

Here's the image I saved. I hope that if anyone recognizes it they might have more info on the configuration and be able to ID the driver.

Cheers, Bruce


----------



## Dougie085

those are nice looking


----------



## SVonhof

It may be the NHT 1259 driver, made up in the NHT sife-firing fashion...

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/ind...26092&pid=1700


----------



## technimac

Found the source of that Audax HT MTM with the side-firing sub.







Here it is:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jimand...ndys/my_photos 


Note the construction photo shows a sealed alignment, but no information on the exact driver used.


Cheers, Bruce


----------



## SVonhof

It looks like he used a 10" sub after seeing the full size image from his Yahoo photo's page. I would guess maybe a Peerless sub. Have you tried to contact the guy who owns that photo album?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I agree, those are nice looking. The ones I saw didn't have a subwoofer built in but that is a good use of the space and it adds some weight to the bottom for stability.


----------



## SVonhof

Did you guys notice that the guy used his plate amp to power both subs (I assume there is a mirror image of this speaker on the other side of the TV. Also, he used regular speaker wire for the MTM portion, run first to the plate-amp and then to the speakers as well as Neutrik Speakon connectors for the subs?


Interesting. I am guessing those are not his true subwoofers, but just meant to extend the low end range of the main speakers.


----------



## kroberts1972

Scott,

I also noticed that. He could be using them as his main subs by telling his reciever to send all lfe to the main speakers. I can do that with my reciever. I thought about doing this with my setup, but I think that keeping the fronts on stands and using a sonosub will probably be a better solution. When I added up the price of the 2 subs built into the fronts, I decided a sonosub would go lower for cheaper (that was with 2 plate amps though). So, now next year I have to build a sonosub : )

I should have my fronts and rears done next week. I will post pictures when they are done. I figure the in process pictures are all ready well documented.


----------



## philiprst

Jeff,


I made my Audax surrounds as floorstanders and posted a pic to this thread about a year ago.


Philip





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bruce,
> 
> I am sorry, but I have looked through my bookmarks several times and I can't find the site. Basically the builder built the L/R channel speakers as normal but added length to the sides to make them taller. The bottom of the speakers was placed in it's orignal location and the internal volume of the speakers was the same. The lower portion was just empty. They were filled with sand at the bottom for stability and the rest was filled with insulation.


----------



## technimac

Hi Philip,

I was considering that option as well. You did a fantastic job of veneering and finishing. That cherry is very classy-looking. Did you make two more sealed floorstanders for "rear surrounds"?


After a year of listening, I was wondering if are you happy with them in terms of on/off axis response, bass extension (would ported be better than sealed?) and with the overall integrity of the system?


Thanks for any feedback.

Cheers, Bruce


----------



## technimac

Found the link for those floorstander fronts that had a void below the MTM. Here it is:

http://www.angelfire.com/music5/hometheater/ 


Cheers, Bruce


----------



## philiprst

Bruce,


I took a break from building and so I still have not completed the rears. I will make them as floorstanders when I get around to it.


I have been absolutely delighted with the whole Audax setup and after a year of movie viewing I have no intention of making any changes (except perhaps to work on some acoustic treatment for the room). I should mention that I am really quite fussy when it comes to audio but the Audax system really exceeded my expectations.


philip






> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *technimac* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Philip,
> 
> I was considering that option as well. You did a fantastic job of veneering and finishing. That cherry is very classy-looking. Did you make two more sealed floorstanders for "rear surrounds"?
> 
> 
> After a year of listening, I was wondering if are you happy with them in terms of on/off axis response, bass extension (would ported be better than sealed?) and with the overall integrity of the system?
> 
> 
> Thanks for any feedback.
> 
> Cheers, Bruce


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Philip,

Acoustic treatment is the single most important thing you can do to your room. Ours is fully treated and it makes a HUGE difference. If you properly treat it, you won't be dissapointed.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philiprst* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bruce,
> 
> 
> I took a break from building and so I still have not completed the rears. I will make them as floorstanders when I get around to it.
> 
> 
> I have been absolutely delighted with the whole Audax setup and after a year of movie viewing I have no intention of making any changes (except perhaps to work on some acoustic treatment for the room). I should mention that I am really quite fussy when it comes to audio but the Audax system really exceeded my expectations.
> 
> 
> philip


----------



## kroberts1972

I have my rears finished before my fronts. I haven't had a large block of time to veneer, so I worked on the fronts.

Here is a rear installed









Here is the rear corner showing the rear and back left speakers









And here is the mounting plate that the speakers sit on. This plate has a 45 degree cut at the top that a 45 degree piece on the back of the speaker fits into. You can see the taller pieces at the sides that prevent the speaker from falling off on either side. This method worked great for mounting the speakers.










The finish on these is Krylon Ultra flat over kilz spray primer. I really like this flat black paint.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Those are just too cool! Very nice work and a nice sleek cabinet! Is that your design or did you see some similar speaker cabinets?


----------



## kroberts1972

Thanks Jeff! The design was functional. I wanted them near the ceiling due to a wall not shown which has a large opening in it instead of a door. So, I did up the room in UGNX (a CAD program) and built a model. I worked out an equation using the area of a trapeziod to allow me to vary the angle of the face while keeping the area of the trapezoid constant using the depth of the cabinets as a variable. I made a ray off the tweeter and modified the angle until it was aimed a little above the head of the sweet spot. This arrived at a 35 degree angle and gave me the final depth dimensions.

As far as the hanging method, I have seen picture frame hangers that work similarly. You have a piece of metal with an angle face that you hang on the wall forming a kind of pocket, and a triangle of metal that you affix to the picture. Then you just drop the pictures angled surface into the wall mounts angled surface and bingo, it's not going anywhere.

Using this method the speakers are very securely mounted. Each one has 3 screws in it, either through to a stud or using something like a drywall toggle, which is claimed to support 90 lbs each. The speakers only weigh 15 lbs.


Last night the only 7.1 capable DVD I could find was Gladiator with DTS ES. It sounded great and listening to other dvds, the 5.1 sounded great too. I was a little worried about the high mounting position (10 foot ceilings), but so far I am really happy.


Kevin


----------



## Gyvven

After a year with my MB20s, and enjoying the heck out of 'em, I decided to waste some time and make proper cabinets. Mostly I just wanted an excuse to play with some new tools. I decided to try veneering, and since I didn't want to paint the veneer I went with a few coats of poly. I also decided that if my wife liked them well enough I could put them upstairs in the living room and start a new set, maybe Audax , for the theater.


Here's the finished product. Shiny but nice looking, IMHO.



BTW, kroberts I really like your mounting plate. It looks good and sounds very functional. I'll have to go back and read more of your posts to find out what it is you built. The finish looks good. I'd look at painting your ceiling though. A white ceiling would be more distracting to me, I know I still have one. Someone in the HT Building forum was talking about certain shades of blue, for ceiling treatments, that look very grey, and non-reflective, in dim light. I'm thinking of doing this myself.


Dougie085, Just to let you know, I built these for about $250 per pair. So a full set for 5.1 has cost me about $800 (five MB20s plus a sub).


----------



## kroberts1972

Gyvven,

Those speakers look great. The veneer looks great and I like black around the baffle.

I don't have much else to chronicle the rears, but there are posts for my center back there. If you would like more details on the mounting plate, just let me know and I will post some more.


As far as the ceiling, it isn't a problem for me. My ceilings are 10' and the top of my screen is 3' below that. The wall behind my screen is the grey you see in the picture, I don't even see the ceiling when I am looking at the screen and there is very little spillover onto the ceiling. I have never looked at a pj with the screen close to the ceiling, but I can understand how that would be distracting.


Kevin


----------



## kroberts1972

I finally have the 7 of the 7.1 done! It has been 2 1/2 months, but they are done! I got the fronts done yesterday, and they are awesome. I tested some of my music DVDs last night, and I am very happy with the results. Here is the overall view of the front










Here is just the front speaker and stand










And here is a closeup of the front










The finish is Minwax Sedona Red on Flexwood Cherry veneer with 6 coats of gloss followed by 2 coats of satin. The black is Krylon Ultra Flat Black over Kilz spray primer.


Here is a closeup of the rears










Here is an overall view of the 4 rears on the wall










Thanks to everyone for the help and discussion!


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Kevin,

Great job! Your front stands look like the ones I built. A lot of people only like floor standers but I think these Audax MTMs on stands look really good. When someone touches the cabinets, they know immediately, they aren't cheap.


----------



## kroberts1972

Jeff,

I like the look with the stands also. Your stands, JL,s and a link JL posted way earlier in the thread were my inspirations. With the stands you get a change in width which adds some interest as opposed to the monolith look of a floorstander.


Kevin


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> I like the look with the stands also. Your stands, JL,s and a link JL posted way earlier in the thread were my inspirations. With the stands you get a change in width which adds some interest as opposed to the monolith look of a floorstander.
> 
> 
> Kevin



Kevin,


Your speakers came out looking great. Nobody will believe you built them yourself. Wait till they break in a bit more, the sound gets even better.


I love the ceiling mounted side and rear enclosure design you came up with... very nice.


Thanks for the compliment about my stands serving as part of the inspiration for your front channel stands. I looked at a lot of stands before building mine and my wife assisted me in eliminating most of them as possibilities







. I wanted mine to disappear when the lights were dimmed, so I was forced to use flat-black to minimize reflections. You have a bit more brightness from your projector, so you can get away with a bit more light in the room than I and use a real wood finish.


Did you brush on or spray the finish? 8 coats of finish is quite a bit. They look really nice in the wood/stain you used. I hope you got a chance to listen to them before the final coat of finish was dry.


Now, Enjoy, sit back and watch a movie or two, and then let us know how they are sounding.


Joe L.


----------



## kroberts1972

Thanks Joe,

I wiped on the poly based on Jim Salks recommendations earlier in the thread. The coats are so thin that you need more to build it up. It took 6 coats of gloss to fill in the grain and get a consistently glossy finish before I put the satin on. It dries in 2-3 hours, and I am in Arizona where there is low humidity, so I got all of the finish on in 2 days, let it sit for one day and assembled on the 4th. I did get some lint/dust in the finish though, and I didn't want to sand too much because I didn't want to remove the stain. You can't see it unless you get really close, so most people will never notice it.

For my next wood finishing project I think I will use Formby's tung oil. I was at a friends over the weekend and he has an armoire he finished with it and it looks great. It was a nice satin finish with no dust in it.


As far as glare I can see a highlight on the roundovers closest to the screen sometimes, but it isn't too bad, and honestly no worse than what I see off the top roundover on the center channel every once in a while, so I don't think it will be annoying.


Kevin


----------



## J. L.

Kevin,

You can see, or... more accurately, it is almost impossible to see the finish on my flat-black Audax HT stands, even with the flash on my camera. My older pictures had had the gamma modified in a photo-editor so you could see some detail.


You can also see my current project, a pair of sealed 18" driver subwoofers built into the stage beneath my screen. Each half of the stage is about 12.5 cubic feet internal volume. My deadline to finish is *before* our Christmas party this weekend when guests will arrive. Wish me luck.


That is a coffee mug sitting between the two drivers to give you an idea of the scale. They are NOT small. My old 15" Adire Tempest sonosub is on the right. The new subs combined will be 5 times (13Liters) more displacement as it (2.5Liters). Hey, how many times can you say with a straight face to a guest in your house "that size really does matter"



























Joe L.


----------



## M NEWMAN

Geez, JL, I'm not sure I'm gonna be very happy being able to hear your subs down here in Texas. I'll be sure to put the cops ph # in my speed dial....


----------



## kroberts1972

JL,

Those beasts are going to be amazing! I can't wait to build a sonosub. I would love to hear those when they are done, but I am also glad I won't, then I will be happy with a sonosub.


Kevin


----------



## SVonhof

Joe, that is going to be one HUGE stage! When I did that little model in Pro-E showing what I envisioned your project to look like, I didn't expect that! Probably part of the issue is that those drivers are not only big in diameter, but also taller than I had thought they would be, which makes it harder to design around.


Good luck on the completion. Since it has been so long since we have heard about progress of them, I REALLY wish you good luck, since it doesn't seem like you have been doing much with them! Maybe it just takes a fire to get lit under your butt?!


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Joe, that is going to be one HUGE stage! When I did that little model in Pro-E showing what I envisioned your project to look like, I didn't expect that! Probably part of the issue is that those drivers are not only big in diameter, but also taller than I had thought they would be, which makes it harder to design around.
> 
> 
> Good luck on the completion. Since it has been so long since we have heard about progress of them, I REALLY wish you good luck, since it doesn't seem like you have been doing much with them! Maybe it just takes a fire to get lit under your butt?!



Scott,

Lots of things kept me from working on the subwoofer/stage... but now, I have a deadline and hopefully, all the parts, pieces and enough glue to keep me busy.


I too did not expect the basket to be shaped as it is. It does not allow me to angle the driver as I wanted and still get everything to fit. If we did, you would have quickly seen in your 3D rendering that it simply would not fit. So, back to the drawing board and I ended up with a more standard down-firing arrangement. I do have tons of internal cross-bracing as seen below.


I did a few prototype arrangements once the curved front was assembled initially thinking I could do a upward firing arrangement with a top plate to protect the drivers, bit my wife and I agreed that the down-firing arrangement looked better. The top will be covered with black velvet to eliminate reflections from the screen.


Yes, sometimes it takes a bit of an incentive to get things going. (pending guests) The problem is that the existing sonosub is pretty decent, in fact, more than decent... and we watch a lot of movies, and you can't make sawdust when you are watching movies. And we went on vacation, and my wife and I took evening ballroom dance classes at the local community college (will I ever find an occasion to Tango? Hey... I know how!!) and it's not like I don't have a subwoofer already... Now that things are back to normal... Must... get... more...power...tools... 











Note: advice to fellow DIY'ers, if you use one of the new polyurethane glues (Gorilla Glue is one brand) wear gloves. Oh yes, don't let a drop of glue accidentally fall on your wrist just above your wristwatch. If you do, and it wicks itself under the watch, the watch will be glued to your wrist in short order. Now, it will come loose, but not without sacrificing all the hair on your arm that used to be under the wristwatch. Now, don't ask me how I came to have this knowledge, but let's say it is "first hand" knowledge. (Ouch...)


Joe L.

*Final set of braces in the center section still needed to be added when this picture was taken.*


----------



## Dougie085

I LOVE the stage idea.....ive been thinking about how i want to have under my screen setup and this would actually be nice because it would give me a place to put my electronics and take care of the sub so that its not off in a corner somwhere taking up space lol and i could probably build in a little shelf to house my reciever dvd player HTPC and everything.......excelent idea....this is in my living room right now lol so i dont really want to have an electronics rack somwhere..i really think it would look nice incorperrated into a stage type setup like that....for the 18" drivers what is the total depth width and height of the cabinets when they are put together? the 18's may be to big for me....i might have to do 15's or maybe a single 18" also what are you powering these things with? 2 plate amps? i would think somthing more powerful maybe a pro amp or somthing


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dougie085* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I LOVE the stage idea.....ive been thinking about how i want to have under my screen setup and this would actually be nice because it would give me a place to put my electronics and take care of the sub so that its not off in a corner somwhere taking up space lol and i could probably build in a little shelf to house my reciever dvd player HTPC and everything.......excelent idea....this is in my living room right now lol so i dont really want to have an electronics rack somwhere..i really think it would look nice incorperrated into a stage type setup like that....for the 18" drivers what is the total depth width and height of the cabinets when they are put together? the 18's may be to big for me....i might have to do 15's or maybe a single 18" also what are you powering these things with? 2 plate amps? i would think somthing more powerful maybe a pro amp or somthing



Dougie,

My stage is 8 feet wide, about 36 inches deep in the center tapering to 30 at the ends, and about 18 inches high. As Scott said, it is HUGE.


I have a NADY XA-1100 pro amplifier to power the new sub. It is a lot more powerful than most plate-amps. It has two channels, rated 475 watts per channel into 4 ohms. I'll use one channel for each sub driver. It will be loafing with 4 ohm loads since it is rated for use with 2 ohm loads. You can see it here: http://www.nady.com/products/product...aampls_pg.html I am aware that there are some high-power plate amps, but the Nady was way less expensive. Under $150, shipping included, from amazon.com when I ordered it a few weeks ago.


Joe L.


----------



## Dougie085

i was thinking maybe i could do a simaler setup with 4 10" subs id like it to be 2 seperate cabinets because i live on the third floor of this building and when i move id like to take it with me and that would make it easier lol of course it would be probably 3 feet shorter then yours lol 8 feet pretty much takes up a wall my current projector screen is only about 75" diagnal and im thinking about getting the Optoma DV10 which would be hard to get the screen under 100" but i might just wait and get a 4805 or even one of the 720p projectors but i just want to make it a little wider then my screen maybe i'll make a couple design scetches of what im thinking in my head and post them here


----------



## SVonhof

Doug, glad you found this thread as well! FYI everyone, Doug is looking at using a JL Audio 12W7-3 monster that a friend is going to almost hand to him. For those who don't know anything about this driver, here are the specs:

Fs: 27.2hz

Qes: 0.514

Qms: 7.807

Qts: 0.482

Vas: 2.33 cu ft/66.0 L

Xmax: 1.15in/29mm (one way)

Sd: 84 sq in/0.0542 sq m.

Re: 2.47 ohm

Znom: 3 ohm

Pt: 750w

driver displacement: 0.14 cu ft/ 4.0 L

net weight: 45 lbs/ 20.4 kg











He is trying to figure out if this thing would work well for HT. You guys want to give your input?


----------



## SVonhof

Oh, Doug, BTW, I don't think you would want to have a subwoofer cabinet that also holds your equipment, unless you put in some serious vibration dampening stuff so that you could stop the vibrations from shaking the crap out of your equipment. I could just imagine that you would have to turn off you subs anytime you wanted to watch a DVD so that it wouldn't skip...


----------



## DonoMan

It'll need a lot of power as it's pretty inefficient, but it models pretty nice.


W7s are supposed to sound really nice. I have some 12W6s in my car...


----------



## Dougie085

yea i saw a 1000watt plate amp or i was thinking of a pro amp but i dont know if im going to use the w7 i think i might use somthing else instead and if i made the stage it would probably be like 4 10's or somthing and to make vibrations better where the equipment sits i could lay down a 1/4" rubber mat of some sort that should take care of things but then again maybe not....if the top were 2" thick it shouldnt move much anyways and then with the rubber mat on top i really couldnt imagine it moving much....lol


----------



## Dougie085

i was also thinking like maybe 6 8w7's but im not sure that would be enuogh output...lol


----------



## SVonhof

Doug, I think you underestimate the power of four subs shaking! I would not want my equipment attached to the sub cabinet, but if I was going to do it, I would want the equipment on isolators similar to raquet-ball halves or something better. There are lots of things available on the market, some softer than others that may do a better job.

I would not trust a 1/4" thick rubber mat, a 1/2" thick neoprene mat would probably be better, something soft...


----------



## Dougie085

but my point is if the cabinet is sturdy enough and the top is thick enough it shouldnt vibrate much but as i said im not sure...the biggest sub ive had was a single 12" store bought and my current sub is a Klipsch dual 8" sub


----------



## SVonhof

Depends on the way the drivers are mounted as well...


----------



## Dougie085

yea....i dont know...i just think i could build it to look verry clean and it would be nice to not have an extra box sitting in a corner lol seems like a good idea most of my movies are on a HTPC anyways lol so they are played off the hard drive...but i dont know about vibrations my dual 8" klipsch sub has some nice output but it doesnt vibrate that much


----------



## Dougie085

i have a while to think about the sub design anyways i still have to build my speakers lol which im going to build a set of GR-Research av series the A/V 3 and A/V3S and the A/V 1RS's so that will be fun lol and then i'll start planning for the sub. right now im mapping out my options and picking the right one because the sub i build will probably be the one i stay with for a while eventually i want to design my own speakers but the sub will most likely go unchanged


----------



## J. L.

Nearly there...


I have the left side proscenium-sub assembled to where I could give it a try, HBO was playing "Flight of the Phoenix" so I listened to its soundtrack while I kept working on the other half of the stage.


Wow... and I thought my old 260L Adire Tempest sub could do justice to the soundtrack... nope... no going back now.


With only one 18" Ascendant Avalanche driver, and still using the old 250 watt plate amp, this thing worked wonderfully. The soundtrack of the plane crash was intense. The whole room seemed to pulse with the vibration. I can't wait till tomorrow when I get the other Avalanche driver mounted in the right hand half of my proscenium/sub-enclosure and the new amplifier in place to power both drivers. Then I'll have to see if I have some time to try to equalize them before my guests arrrive on Saturday.







I still need to cover the top with a dark fabric. Might not get to the equalization...


Joe L.

*Driver installed in left hand side of stage/proscenium. Next step was to fill with batts of fiberglass insulation and attach the top.*


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey Joe, that thing looks like a beast! As usual, your construction also looks great. What do you plan to use for equalization? I still have another section of sonotube and I keep saying I'm going to build a second one. I bought a BFD just for that purpose. It's mounted in the rack and waiting for that 2nd sub.


----------



## trpltongue

Joe,


Does your stage sit directly on the floor, if so, how do you have any clearance for the movement of the sub? I see the feet in your first picture, but this last one looks like it sit's directly on the floor? I'm sure you have it figured out, but it's just hard to tell how you're doing it from the pictures.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Joe, that thing looks like a beast! As usual, your construction also looks great. What do you plan to use for equalization? I still have another section of sonotube and I keep saying I'm going to build a second one. I bought a BFD just for that purpose. It's mounted in the rack and waiting for that 2nd sub.



Jeff,

I have a BFD equalizer. It should simply be a matter of plotting the new response curves once everything is in place.


I gave my other half of my original piece of Sonotube to an AVS member (BrianMat) who lives about 20 miles west of me.
He was very happy with this sub he built with it


Joe L.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trpltongue* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Joe,
> 
> 
> Does your stage sit directly on the floor, if so, how do you have any clearance for the movement of the sub? I see the feet in your first picture, but this last one looks like it sit's directly on the floor? I'm sure you have it figured out, but it's just hard to tell how you're doing it from the pictures.



trpltongue,

Each half of the stage rests on four feet to keep the drivers off the floor. The drivers are definitely not resting directly on the floor.


It is not a perfect design (It would be better if higher off the floor) but the total open area around the perimeter of the sub is greater than the combined surface area of the drivers. It should result in a LFE wavefront spanning the entire width of the screen.


I made the feet from 3/4 inch plywood, held together with glue and "pocket-hole" screws. You can see them here as I was assembling them using a Kreg "pocket-hole jig and a special drill bit to create a flat-bottomed hole for the screws.


Joe L.


----------



## kroberts1972

Joe,

Looking at your post times, I have to ask, did you sleep at all last night or just not sleep much? I just watched flight of the phoenix the other night, and when that crash happened it was OK, but I know my 10" infinity just isn't cutting it. I definitely see a new sub in my room in the new year.


----------



## trpltongue

Joe,


Thanks for the detailed response! That's what I was thinking you did, just wanted to confirm










Russell


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Joe,
> 
> Looking at your post times, I have to ask, did you sleep at all last night or just not sleep much?



Let's just say I'm not normally a "morning person" so I was working until late last night and was making progress so I just kept busy.


I actually fell asleep in the recliner in the theater after I made myself a cup of coffee and sat down to listen "for a moment or two" to the sound-track of the movie. Since I had not turned on the projector it was easy to pay attention to the sound. Apparently, it was easy to doze off too...










I was suddenly awakened when an explosion occurred in the movie. (Actually, it was a "very" sudden awakening. Between the subwoofer and the shaker in the chair it was as if the explosion occurred in my basement














Wow... it was loud, and I did not have the volume up that high either.) At that point I did a bit more work and then went upstairs to bed.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kroberts1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just watched flight of the phoenix the other night, and when that crash happened it was OK, but I know my 10" infinity just isn't cutting it. I definitely see a new sub in my room in the new year.



Compared to what you have done, subwoofers are very easy to build. Depending on the specific driver a 10" sub might have a displacement of about .7 liters of air. One of my new 18" drivers has about 6.5 liters of air displacement. Roughly equivalent to nine of your drivers. A subwoofer is one place where size does matter.







I'm finishing up the second cabinet now. Tonight should be interesting.


Joe L.


----------



## J. L.

OK, perhaps it was a bit optimistic to think the sub would be completed, installed, equalized and ready with the new amplifier before the party yesterday... But, I did manage to clean up the remaining sawdust and drape a temporary cover over it. Now it does not seem to be as big.


None of my guests suspected what lurked within the stage beneath the screen. They were just blown away by the total sound experience... and I only had one of the drivers connected to my old 250 watt amplifier for the party.


This morning I connected the new NADY XA-1100 amplifier. Both Ascendent Audio 18" drivers playing, I then popped in one of my LFE demo disks. Needless to say... wow.


Although still not equalized ( I switched the BFD off-line ) I had some fun trying the different selections on the demo disk. I did manage to see the "clip" warning lights on the new amplifier flicker a time or two on a few of the selections on the demo disk, but most demo selections were not as aggressive. (They "clip" lights show when it is within 3 dB of max output on the amp)


Now, the left hand sub seems to want to move itself across the floor when presented with some more extreme material. This is no small task as it weighs about 150 lbs. This should be resolved when I bolt the two halves together. I'll also need to look at the feet on that sub. Perhaps one is angled in such a way as to cause the whole enclosure to want to "walk" on its own.


In any case, it is alive... and apparently, learning how to walk.










Joe L.

*Here it is with the temporary cover*


----------



## Johnla

You better be careful J.L., you know how it is with a new member in the family.

Because once they learn how to walk, then they learn to run next, and then they will start to run around all over the place.....


----------



## kroberts1972

That is great, it just looks like a stage. It must be a huge surprise to hear that bass come from nowhere. I think everyone is going to want 2 18's now joe. I know I do. THANKS!


----------



## SVonhof

I don't think most people's HT rooms could handle the SPL's put out by those things! I would love to do that, but don't know that the windows would handle it, much less the sheetrock... You are pushing the threshold, you know that, right?!


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't think most people's HT rooms could handle the SPL's put out by those things! I would love to do that, but don't know that the windows would handle it, much less the sheetrock... You are pushing the threshold, you know that, right?!



Scott,

Not sure of the max SPL these are capable of... but I'm pretty sure they will hit reference levels.

















So far, the sheetrock is doing fine. But then again, the walls behind the subwoofer, and behind the bookcases, are concrete block. Nope... 'gonna' take a bit more than my subwoofer to have any problems with those walls. My next major project in the theater will be acoustic treatments for the walls, especially the one sheetrock wall on the right hand side of the theater. But not until next year, and another DIY thread.


The floor above the acoustic ceiling is 1/2 inch plywood subfloor, wire lath, about 2 inches of concrete, and then thick quarry tile. It handles the bass just fine. Most of the sound travels upstairs via the stairway, not through the floor. The windows are not near the subwoofer. Probably just as well, otherwise they might be rattling. Pushing the threshold? What threshold are you referring to?


Joe L.


----------



## shepP

Joe,


Are you still running your tempest as well as your two new subs? I love my 2 tempest sealed sono-subs, but I think I might have to pick up a couple of new 18" from ascendant when they come out as I feel I want a little more as well. btw what made you choose that amp?


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *J. L.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Pushing the threshold? What threshold are you referring to?
> 
> Joe L.



The threshold of the sheetrock or in your case, maybe concrete?! I was kidding. Kinda. So, have you measured the SPL levels with a meter yet? I would be curious to see what your response is in the room.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shepP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Joe,
> 
> 
> Are you still running your tempest as well as your two new subs? I love my 2 tempest sealed sono-subs, but I think I might have to pick up a couple of new 18" from ascendant when they come out as I feel I want a little more as well. btw what made you choose that amp?



shepP,

Currently my 260l Adire Tempest Sonosub is located at the rear of the theater and not hooked up because I do not currently have an audio line run to that location to feed it. Might be an interesting experiment though... to run both.... ported in the rear of the theater and sealed subs in the front.


I chose the NADY XA-1100 amplifier based on price and capability. The sealed alignment I built needed about 500 watts per channel. The amp is rated at 470 watts per channel into a 4 ohm load... just about a perfect match. The NADY amp is rated for use at 2 ohm loads so it will be loafing driving 4 ohm loads. It can be bridged and still drive a 4 ohm load (at 1100 watts!) if I ever needed a bit more power. Last of all, it was under $150.00 shipping included. (its shipping weight is about 45 lbs)


From my initial experiments I can get its clipping warning lights to flicker on some extreme DVD material when I had the volume cranked pretty high. For them to light the amp was putting out within 3 dB of its max output. I did not hear any obvious clipping distortion from the drivers themselves, so I don't think it actually got into clipping.


The only downside to the amp compared to a more typical "plate amplifier" is that it does not power itself on when it detects audio on its input. I'll need to address that with a power relay triggered with a voltage from my receiver, but for now, I turn it on and off by hand. It also expects a "pro" +4dB input level instead of a -10dB consumer level input. Because of that, it currently has its gain controls at max. I eventually need to get a preamp to match the levels better. I'll then put it between the receiver and the BFD and run then +4dB pro-levels to the NADY.


Joe L.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The threshold of the sheetrock or in your case, maybe concrete?! I was kidding. Kinda. So, have you measured the SPL levels with a meter yet? I would be curious to see what your response is in the room.



Scott,

I've not yet measured the frequency response or calculated the potential SPL levels. Perhaps in the next few days.


I can tell you that because the new subwoofers are located further from the sheetrock wall where the two closet doors are located, the doors seem to vibrate in their doorjambs less. That is good, as the vibrating doors was a distraction in a movie and I had often left them ajar when using the old sub.


Joe L.


----------



## J. L.

It's not easy to hide a 25 cubic foot sub in a room, but I did it.


I've covered the fronts with the same dark brown velour fabric I used for the screen wall. Top is black velvet. Almost no light reflects from the screen to distract us from a movie.


When the lights are turned low the sub really disappears.


Joe L.


----------



## Duaner

I toasted a tweeter in my audax setup the other day... so before ordering a new one I emailed PE to ask about the rumors that have been going around for more than a year now that the polymer chassis aerogel cone audax drivers would soon be unavailable. The tech advisor wrote the following:


Hello,

The information I have is they are not currently making these so it might be a good idea to grab a couple of spares.

If there is anything else I can do to assist you please let me know.



So, along with a few extra tweeters, I ordered an extra 6.5" and and extra 5.25" driver. I think the tweeters will still be available? The tweeters are still in their big mail catalogue, but the midbass drivers are not...


Who knows, maybe PE has a million of these things in stock. If that's the case, I'll probably feel like a heel in about a year... But in case they don't, those who have been on the fence about ordering backup drivers might want to go ahead and order some now.


By the way joe, that sub looks great! It's been a while since I have visited the forum, so I have missed a lot... good to see it's still active.


take care everyone.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Duaner* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I toasted a tweeter in my audax setup the other day...



Duaner,


What were you doing that resulted in a toasted tweeter?


How much power were you feeding it and what levels was it trying to reproduce?

Do you think the amplifier was clipping? (That results in LOTS of high-frequency energy and is the leading cause of toasted tweeters I know of.)


Thanks for the "head's up" on the Audax drivers. Madisound.com might also have some. A spare might not be a bad idea.


Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof

Are these the same ones people have used for the Audax DIY HT speakers?! Hope not!


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I had to replace a midbass driver in my center channel a year ago. But, it was my fault...I punctured it while building my screen wall. I also have a spare midbass. I may grab a tweeter or two and a bass or two. Other than that, I've had no problems with mine and they are two years old.


----------



## Duaner

SVonhoff:

yes these are the drivers that are used in the audax kit we all have come to know and love... polymer chassis, aerogel cones.


JL:

I would have to say that the tweeter blew because I was driving my little sony receiver past it's limit. I put in a particularly "bright" cd, cranked it way way up, and before I could get back to the listening area where It's easy to detect the distortion caused by running the amp past its limit, the poor little tweeter gave way. These speakers seem to be an extremely hard drive, especially for a modest sony with 100wpc... and it seems like I am always pushing it right up to the edge. I thought santa might help me out and deliver me a much more powerful new denon this year for christmas, as the 3805's are now much cheaper since they have been replaced by the 3806, but no such luck... maybe next year... hmmm, I think I said that last year too... hmmmm, this is not looking good.


anyways, aside from my recent tweeter toasting... I have had zero problems with these speakers... and I still have yet to hear a speaker that I can actually afford that sounds any better. I am glad I have some spare drivers coming... (you never know when your 2 year old is going to push her finger through one of the cones...) I hope to keep these speakers in use for many years.


later.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Ahh, you were playing music! I only play DVDs through ours but we definitely listen at Ref level. Our HK7200 also allows me to set the levels for each format, ie DTS, Dolby Digital, etc. I never use the built-in sound meter, I always use my SPL meter.


----------



## Pwidd

Re fingers thru cones; one of the woofers in my left front has a chunk missing from the roll surround. The speakers are 15 years old (Richter Wizards; quality Australian brand). Maybe one day I'll take the woofer off and replace it. Not critical; everything below 80Hz is handled by my sub. I've told my amp that all speakers are small - to match THX specs. Bit of a waste though; those Richters have pretty good bass. My Vifa/Scan Audio SA-50 kit speakers that I have as my rears are fantastic for clarity and transient response; I wouldn't mind another set of those for my fronts. Probably a bit hard to get the kit now; but I suppose I can copy the originals. Vifa drivers shouldn't ever go out of style. Maybe I'll sell the Richters on Ebay... they're perfect for a stereo set, but a titch big for home theatre.


PW


----------



## BigguyZ

Wasn't there information about a year ago that Audax was not going to be making drivers for DIY applications anymore? So basically, once Madisound, PE, and whoever are out- they're out for good.


----------



## moonhawk

Pwidd:


FWIW, Northcreek uses/sells a lot of Vifa and Scanspeak drivers in their kits


----------



## Yeldarb43




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pwidd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Re fingers thru cones; one of the woofers in my left front has a chunk missing from the roll surround. The speakers are 15 years old (Richter Wizards; quality Australian brand). Maybe one day I'll take the woofer off and replace it..
> 
> 
> PW




Check out Parts express tutorial on replacing foam surrounds. http://www.partsexpress.com/Tech/260-915.html


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigguyZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wasn't there information about a year ago that Audax was not going to be making drivers for DIY applications anymore? So basically, once Madisound, PE, and whoever are out- they're out for good.



If that's the case, that stinks. Dynaudio used to sell the drivers by themselves and they decided to stop selling them since they were going to make their own complete speakers. Problem is, they are out of the price range of most consumers including those who might consider DIY designs.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigguyZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wasn't there information about a year ago that Audax was not going to be making drivers for DIY applications anymore? So basically, once Madisound, PE, and whoever are out- they're out for good.



Yes, and that is why you also see some model numbers no longer being offered anymore by some places that used to sell them.



As per their French website http://www.audax.fr/ 




"Le groupe Harman (proprietaire d'AUDAX) a cesse la production de toute gamme HiFi depuis le mois de juin 2004, suite a une reorganisation du groupe (vers l'automobile neuf). Queques distributeurs ont pris des dispositions afin de pouvoir continuer la distribution de ces produits quelques temps, toutefois les produits sont proposes jusqu'a EPUISEMENT DES STOCKS, et il sera parfois necessaire de vous reorienter vers un produit de substitution."




Which roughly translated by babelfish =





"The group Harman (owner of AUDAX) has cease the production of any HiFi range since June 2004, following a reorganisation of the group (towards the car nine). Queques distributors made provisions in order to be able to continue the distribution of these products a few times, however the products are propose until A EXHAUSTION OF STOCKS, and it will be sometimes necessary you reorienter towards a substitute product."


----------



## Pwidd

Thanks guys, for your advice re replacing woofer surrounds & kit speakers. I'm gonna be moving house in 6 months or so; I'm gonna try to get something that suits home theatre; but most houses have rooms with parallel walls & ceilings. Strange that... But I may be able to find something. My current room isn't too great, but it works. I'll leave any work on speakers till I get the new house, and decide whether the room's worth it. My wife probably won't let me line the whole room with cork; but clever furniture placement and a SPL meter may get me something passable. At the moment, my homemade sub sits behind the lounge, and one of my mains is stuck on a box so the tweeter isn't blocked by the armchair, and my rears are too close to the wall to get any benefit from the rear-facing reflex port... but hey, I think it sounds OK. Although I just bought a centre speaker, and suddenly the sound has lost a lot of depth. It was probably artificial depth that I was used to. The mutlitple surround modes on the amp make a whole heap of difference now. Gonna have to borrow the SPL meter from work and get the levels set up.

PW


----------



## Vrooman

Thanks for the heads up regarding Audax DIY drivers being discontinued. Placed my order yesterday for the center and surrounds. I was hoping to hold off for a while longer before adding additional speakers to go with the fronts I constructed this fall, but guess not. Also, a hearty thanks to Joe L. for sharing his work in detail in this thread. Inspired me to give DIY a go. This thread is hard to navigate now, but is full of many useful nuggets from many people. Thanks to all who shared, that's part of the the DIY ethic!


----------



## Duaner

Heads up to anyone who is ordering some audax drivers for spares... check them out before putting them away for storage. These drivers still use poor quality glue to attach the basket to the magnet, and often get shipped detached from one another. I had 3 speakers out of the first seven that had to go back because of that, and this time one of the two was broken. Also, for some reason, PE didn't package the tweeters in their usual little clear plastic containers... they just threw them in a plastic bag and tossed them in the box... two of them arrived slightly damaged. Not typical of PE. They were good about returning everything though, and shipped the replacents out immediately.


----------



## JimboH

All this talk about Audax driver availability has me concerned. I am sitting on a stack of MDF in my shop and was planning on starting cabinets for the Audax system this weekend. I have not yet ordered the drivers and am now having second thoughts about building this system. The problem is I do not have a backup plan for a different home theater speaker setup at this time.


Do you guys think I should move forward with the Audax system, or switch to something else. I'm starting to wonder if PE is down to the end of their stock and moving the questionable remnants, based on the reports of defective merchandise.


Should I continue with the Audax project or consider switching designs.


Jim


----------



## runninkyle17

From the informaiton that I have heard, I think you would be okay if you started the project within the next couple of weeks. However, I am sure you could find some similar drivers that would fit nicely in the enclosures originally designed for the Audax drivers. You may have to tweak a little but you could probably make it work.


I am just about to start a DIY center in an MTM config with two 6.5" Peerless drivers (I think they are the classic line woofers) and I have yet to decide on a tweeter. The matching of the tweeter to the drivers is actually giving me the most trouble. I have looked at the Audax tweeters, but I think I am going to settle on either a Morel MDT-22 or a Peerless tweeter with a fairly low crossover point.


My woofers have a flat response from about 55Hz - 2200Hz so I would like to set a crossover point at around 2000Hz. I know this is off the topic at hand, but does anyone know if the PE pre-made crossovers are any good or would I be better off making my own? The reason I ask is because this will be my first DIY speaker and I am on somewhat of a budget so I want to get the most return on my money for this first project. Later on I will start bigger projects with more lucrative budgets. Happy New Year everyone!


----------



## SVonhof

runninkyle17, you could do what I did for a crossover and have Madisound punch all the info into LEAP and run the program to come up with a design. From there, you can either buy all the components and make it on your own, or have them make it for you.


----------



## Griff

I was at PE a couple of weeks ago and inquired about their stock of Audax speakers. They have over 1000 of the drivers we used in our Audax HT sets.


I think replacements will be available for a while, but if someone decides to buy a sh**load in bulk they're gone!!


I'm gonna pick up a couple woofers and tweeters and 1 of the 5 1/2 ers. I don't want to build a new set for a while but we all know how the upgradeitis bug bites, don't we?!?!?!?!?


Griff


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Guys, the news about Audax pulling out of the diy market is old. We've known this for at least a year and I know it is mentioned in this thread. I even said somewhere that I was thinking of buying up a supply and selling them later on ebay. Also, as someone else mentioned, you should check them before putting them away. I had a midrange that was in pieces when I opened the box and I posted that probably two years ago.


----------



## technimac

It's taking a while, but I'm managing to make some progress on the Audax HT center. I decided to reduce the height of the baffle by 1" and keep the internal volume the same by extending the depth. So far, so good! I know this might impact BSC, but the speaker will be underneath my CRT TV, and on top of the existing TV stand (all of which tends to make a pretty large baffle).

Here are some pics of the progress so far:

The first shows the mid and tweeter together, with the baffle width unchanged as per spec.

The second photo shows the horizontal 1/2"X2" brace between the tweet and midrange. At HD, they have packing boards from the top and bottom of pallets of "engineered flooring" that protect the product during shipping. This stuff is 1/4" thick HDF and is great for beefing up 3/4" MDF to get a 1" thickness. I just used polyurethane glue and lotsa clamps. Cutting it 3/4" smaller than the baffle height and width works out like cutting rabbet all around it.

In the final photo, I'm fitting the x-over boards and measuring for bracing that will go from the midrange enclosure to the sides and back baffle.

The annoying thing about trying to work outside, here in Vancouver, is that we failed to break the record for most consecutive days of rainfall by one day. Then it started again, making it impossible go outside to do essential routering on the MDF.









The forecast is for some clearing tomorrow - yeah, right....


Wednesday...overcast, but not raining. Managed to finish the flares on the inside end of the ports.










Cheers, Bruce


----------



## kgveteran

Wow , what a thread.I'll never read all the pages but here is a thread to the center project over at HT guide.com.


My center is pictured on page 5-6.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=15323


----------



## Brian Ravnaas

Hi Ted,


i am posting in your thread for no particular purpose


Brian


----------



## theirishgonzo

that is a nice sub i know i have 4 avalanch 18 my self in my theater


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Brian Ravnaas* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Ted,
> 
> 
> i am posting in your thread for no particular purpose
> 
> 
> Brian



Brian, I don't know if Ted checks this thread much. He started this thing on 09-15-02 and I think he has left us. I could be wrong though! I love the fact that it's still going, although it's a little slow right now.


----------



## technimac

Working on my latest project - a 6.5 cu. ft. corner enclosure that I've veneered in heavy-flaked raw white oak.


This stuff is a challenge, with the flakes being concave on one side and convex on the other. I belatedly realized that it should be convex side up, otherwise there are depressions to fill in where each flake is.


The other issue to deal with is that this veneer has a strip of lighter sapwood along one side. I'm going to use an aniline dye mixture to darken the sapwood streaks enough to match the adjacent heartwood.


I also discovered that attempting to use the PVA iron-on method with this particular veneer is hugely problematic - in the end I veneered the top with standard contact cement.


Here are several photos so far:

-first is installation of the bracing

-second shows the sapwood streaks in the oak veneer

-third is a view of the 2"X14"X18.25" slot port that tunes this beast to about 21Hz.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *technimac* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I also discovered that attempting to use the PVA iron-on method with this particular veneer is hugely problematic - in the end I veneered the top with standard contact cement.




If that is raw veneer, that's probably why it did not work so well doing that way. I think the iron on method is mainly recommended for paper backed veneer and not with raw unbacked veneer.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

technimac,

That's a good looking design. I also really like the way the veneer looks. I've never seen that before. I think johnla is right about the paper backing. That's all I've ever used and it works pretty well with the yellow glue method.


I've had the components to build a set of corner horns since last summer and still haven't started on them yet. I'm afraid they're going to be a bit large. It's a good thing they go into the basement.


----------



## ericgl

Nice work Joe, you should be proud.


----------



## tdale4

Well I'm taking the plunge into making my own speakers. it was a toss up between a dayton III design and the Audax ht......in the end I decided to make the Audax. I hope they will sound as good as the daytons. I have my cabinets almost made for the front speakers and my drivers and x over parts are comming in next week. I probably should have ordered my X overs from madisound..... but I wanted the higher quality components so i ordered the parts from PE. then i learned I could have ordered the same thing from madisound, had them assembe my crossovers, and it would have been cheaper. Live and learn... anyway I am little worried I'll put them together wrong, anyone have pictures of how to properly assembe the crossovers i can go off of?


----------



## Duaner

good luck! I have never heard the daytons, but I can't imagine you will not be satisfied with the performance of the Audax.


Sorry, I don't have any shots of just my XOs... I had the same fear when I put mine together. I just checked, double checked, and checked again when I soldered everything together. I remember when I first fired up the center channel, I had the XO for the tweeter connected to the midrange and vice versa. I couldn't believe I had spent so much time and money putting this thing together for it to sound so crappy. Upon a closer listen... within a few inches, I immediately discovered the problem, swapped the wires and have been pleased ever since.


again, good luck. Just take your time laying the XOs out and all will be fine.


----------



## technimac

tdale 4,

I happen to have some photos of the xovers for the Audax HT main front speakers.


Here they are...HTH


Cheers, Bruce


----------



## technimac

tdale 4,

Here's a photo from the center enclosure when I was mocking-up the fit for the x-overs.


Cheers, Bruce


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Wow, ya go away and then come back and the whole place has changed. I really have nothing to say or anything new to share, I just want to revive our thread. I am finally going to start on a pair of large corner horns for 2-channel. My Audax are still going strong and are 4-yrs old (I think). J.L., where are you?


BTW, when did the forum add a diy speaker section and why is this thread not there?


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow, ya go away and then come back and the whole place has changed. I really have nothing to say or anything new to share, I just want to revive our thread. I am finally going to start on a pair of large corner horns for 2-channel. My Audax are still going strong and are 4-yrs old (I think). J.L., where are you?
> 
> 
> BTW, when did the forum add a diy speaker section and why is this thread not there?



Jeff,

I'm still around, and my Audax HT speakers are also doing well. Guests in my theater constantly go away talking about how good the sound is and how they can hear "everything"


You are about to build corner horns... cool... Post pictures... you can even do it in the (relatively) new DIY Speakers forum. It has been in existence since mid February. I'll bet this thread had a lot to do with its creation. As far as why this thread was not moved, I don't know... If it is moved I hope they put a link in this forum to it for us old-time contributors.


I am also just starting on a set of speakers to replace my Audax HT series. It is the Dayton RS series described in the DIY forum on htguide.com. Believe it or not, the new center channel will be even bigger than the Audax center. Definitely not something you would sit atop most TVs. (But then, neither is the Audax HT center)


I've started cutting MDF and have the drivers, but have not started the glue-up... I've still got to order the parts for the crossovers. I don't plan on rushing the construction because I have very decent sound now. I'm building these to get the the next level of performance. (I also needed to make some trips to Home Depot and Lowes anyway ... before they forget I used to live there)


My new center enclosure is very similar to the Audax HT center enclosure. A sub-compartment to hold the midrange and tweeter and a larger outer enclosure for the two woofers. It will end up roughly 30 inches wide, 12.5 inches high, and 16 inches deep. I'm guessing somewhere near 60 - 75 lbs. (The drivers are very heavy, and the internal bracing in the enclosure adds a lot of weight) One small difference is that the new center has a sealed enclosure for the woofers, while the Audax is ported.


Looks like we will both be making sawdust out of MDF this summer.


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Joe,

Please don't tell me I'm missing out on something bigger and better. I certainly hope you post your progress and dangle the carrot for the rest of us Audax guys. BTW, how did that new subwoofer turn out? As for my corner horns, I've had the parts for over a year. I just need to get off my bum and cut some MDF!


----------



## WGubbe

Hi guys, Good to see your names on here again. I finally finished my Audax set. I am very pleased with it's performance but like many have said on this thread the center is very big and heavy. I have to figure out where I will mount it once I buy my HDTV and make my final arrangements for my room. I could never have completed this project if it was not for the hours of help that my friend Richard Dupuis gave me during the construction. Plus the use of his workshop. The many posts entered on this thread by the others who have built the Audax were of great encourgement to me during the construction. Thanks to all.


I will try a few pictures here. New camera and new software. First post with photo's.


Regards, Bill


----------



## WGubbe

I know that there have been many pictures of all the Audax cabinets posted during all phases of construction. I want to add just one more to share with you what the L1 6.8 mH coil in the center woofer X-over looks like as a wound solid copper coil. When I went to Solen.ca to order all my cross over components it never dawned on me that I would receive such a monster. I had never seen anyone here using a coil like that. But I had it so I used it. As you can see in the photo it is very large and forced me to make a few modifications to the way the cross overs are mounted inside. I did not make any adjustment for the loss of volume inside. Doesn't seem to have hurt anything. Darn thing weighs about 5 ib's.


Regars Bill


----------



## SVonhof

Joe, you are working on replacing the Audax's? Wow. I have not been over to the DIY speaker forum much, can you post a link to the thread with the kit you will be using to replace the Audax? Call me lazy, but I have so many threads I am following on here that I hate to have to go looking for more, but still love to look...


BTW, I have been up and running in my theater for about 5 years now and just last night got a message to replace the lamp in my projector! WHAT?! 5 years on one lamp? It is only at 1011 hours in 5 years? I thought I would use up that 1000 hours in the first two years. That's crazy!

Anyway, $500 for a lamp and another couple hundred for a new DVD player (my Kenwood DV-5700 is really crapping out on me) and I should be back to normal.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Joe, you are working on replacing the Audax's? Wow. I have not been over to the DIY speaker forum much, can you post a link to the thread with the kit you will be using to replace the Audax? Call me lazy, but I have so many threads I am following on here that I hate to have to go looking for more, but still love to look...



Scott,

Yes, I'm a bit crazy, or the DIY'er in me is looking to upgrade, but hopefully I'll get the Dayton RS series completed this year.







Problem is, the sound is very good now, and we spend a lot of time watching movies and HDTV in our theater, and that all takes away from the time I could use making big piles of sawdust from sheets of MDF for the new speakers.


In any case a link to the thread describing the speakers I will be building is here on htguide.com in the DIY forum 


Be forewarned, it is a very long thread, with both a WMTW center and a TMWW mains. The thread has a set of plans with several potential crossovers by equally great designers using some of the best emulators, CAD tools and measurement tools available.


I'm building the version described in that thread using the RS28A tweeter and the crossover design by Dennis Murphy. It has a 6" midrange driver and two 8" woofers. The Dayton RS series is a bit more expensive to build than the Audax HT series, has crossovers that are a lot more complicated resulting in a smoother response, (one reason it is more expensive) and it uses drivers that are currently in production. (the drivers are the other reason it is more expensive to build) So far I've been able to get the woofers and tweeters on sale when Partsexpress has put them on their deal-of-the-day.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW, I have been up and running in my theater for about 5 years now and just last night got a message to replace the lamp in my projector! WHAT?! 5 years on one lamp? It is only at 1011 hours in 5 years? I thought I would use up that 1000 hours in the first two years. That's crazy!
> 
> Anyway, $500 for a lamp and another couple hundred for a new DVD player (my Kenwood DV-5700 is really crapping out on me) and I should be back to normal.



Apparently you have a life outside of your theater... although it is occasionally permitted to AVS members, it does cut down on how quickly your hours accumulate on your projector lamp.










But... you are not alone... My wife and I have been taking Ballroom and Latin dance lessons for about the past 6 months or so. Between the lessons and various dances we've been attending it also has made my hour counter go a bit slower on my projector. Hey... perhaps we also have a life outside of my theater???


My wife just suggested I go and make some sawdust...











Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *J. L.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Scott,
> 
> Apparently you have a life outside of your theater... although it is occasionally permitted to AVS members, it does cut down on how quickly your hours accumulate on your projector lamp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe L.



Yes, we do have an outside life. In the summer, there is always yardwork and the pool. Year-round, there is always golf, motorcycle, food and wine and friends.


Problem is, whenever we have friends over, we don't end up in the theater, since we like to talk to our friends...


----------



## moonhawk

But all that makes the theater so much the sweeter when you do get some time in it.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Ahh, the sleeping giant is awake! Long live Ted's thread! Scott, my Panasonic CP72 is starting to do some funny things and I'm looking at something like this but maybe not this particular model since it seems to be having some issues:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...+hd+dvd+player


----------



## Duaner

That looks like a cool project J.L. I can't wait to see your finished product, and to read your critique of them after you have had a chance to compare them to your audax ht setup. I am still using the audax that I made over a year ago, and they still suprise people when they hear them... but I am always on the lookout for another bigger and better diy project. Not that I don't have enough to do now... I just finished mudding in just under 1000 feet of new drywall joints in my home... and I am tired of white dust... I'd rather be making brown sawdust.







Keep us all posted... this is going to be great...


Duane


----------



## J. L.

For those who are thinking of building the Audax HT set described by many in this thread, the AP170Z0 drivers are on sale till 5M tomorrow at partsexpress.com. PE part number 296-165


Joe L.


----------



## wuzznmee

JL, just a little hint on your wood choices, use poplar or ash to show less grain.Also less weight. You can go to a custom cabinet shop and they will thickness plain it for you for shop time costs. To cut the gloss use some fine sand paper to dull the finish. Sorry if this is addressed earlier as I jumped ahead a few years.


----------



## SVonhof

So, anyone with one of the sub box programs want to run some numbers for me again? I have two of the Titanic 1000 kits from Parts Express and I am considering either building new boxes and replacing the drivers or combining both drivers and both amps into a brand new box that will allow the drivers to work better and free'er (is that a word?). Either two boxes built into one or one box with both drivers is what I am looking for, ported or sealed or whatever. I am looking for options to get more out of them.

Power handling: 400 watts RMS/565 watts max

Impedance: 4 ohms

Fs: 28 Hz

Qe: .42

Qm: 5.23

Xmax 18.7 mm

Sensitivity 87.7 dB 2.83V/1m

Vas: .95 cu. ft. /26.39 ltr

Qts: .39

Sd: .0293 m^2

Re: 3.05 ohm


I figured that there are some good people in this thread, so I would try it before going over to the subwoofer forum and asking.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Why hasn't this thread been moved????????????????????????????

Maybe if I lace it with profanities, the moderators will see it and move it to the diy speaker forum.


----------



## Johnla

Oh sure, just show up late and cuss a lot.......


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Johnla,

Not sure what you mean by showing up late???? I've been on this thread since 2002 (page 2 to be exact)







I just can't understand why it is still here.


----------



## Johnla

Yeah, but it's been a whole month or so since yer last visit.....


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I have the bug again. I'm looking at new DVD players and last night, I roughed up my 4-yr old sono sub a bit. The regular crowd over on the diy forum have convinced me to go with a Soundslinter subwoofer. It looks like a Behringer EP2500 is also on the list.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have the bug again.




Then it's time to start working on those horns you have always talked about.


----------



## SVonhof

Well Jeff, per my post at the top of this page I have the bug too. I am going to make a new cabinet to house my Titanic 1000 drivers and amps. I am going to make it ported with some long 4" ports so that I can tune it down to about 20 hz. I will be able to get much more umph out of it that I can now with the two sealed subs. I won't be buying anything new though, except wood.


----------



## Johnla

Hmmmmmm, I guess I'll just have to sharpen a pencil just so I can say I'm making some sawdust and say I'm keeping up with you guys with all your new projects....


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Well fellas, we're all back in the game. Johnla, you are correct about those horns. I've the parts now for what...2 yrs? The travel schedule is always a factor. My kids are 10 and 14 and one plays soccer every weekend. I assume you guys will post those projects somewhere?


----------



## Johnla

I must have conveyed it the wrong way...


Because I really don't think anyone wants to see the sawdust results from my pencil sharpening exploits.....


----------



## Jeff Hovis

It was late! I get it now. I hope it's an MDF pencil


----------



## chambl

Hi Everyone,


I spent a couple weeks reading through this entire thread and I am very impressed. I've never seen a thread last through so many years.


Just over a year ago, I bought Parts Express' Studio BR1 kit and those speakers are currently used as my front L/R speakers. These are a vast improvement over the Sony so-called "Dream System" HTIB I have.


I recently moved and now have a room dedicated for a HT setup. Even before finding this thread, I was planning on building the fronts and the center channel (The BR1's will be used as surrounds). I'm glad to have read about all the experiences while building the Audax speakers. It provided much insight and hopefully will make my experience building these smoother










Instead of using 3/4" MDF and a 1" MDF front baffle, I am using 1" and 1.5" MDF, as described by Ralph Calabria at hometheaterhifi. I am also adding braces accross the side walls. Last week, I had cut all of the MDF pieces. In addition to the speakers, I am building speaker stands, loosely based on Joe L.'s design. I want to place the center channel on a floating shelf, but none commercially available seem to be able to support such a monstrous weight. I am therefore also building a floating shelf, based on Ron Hazelton's design over at ronhazelton-dot-com.


I will be veneering the speakers, stands and shelf with mahogany I bought off ebay and will be staining the speakers and stands with a red mahogany stain. I will probably dye the shelf a medium brown color.


Tomorrow I will be cutting out the holes and glue some walls together. I will post my progress and probably post some pics along the way too...


----------



## DLK




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chambl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just over a year ago, I bought Parts Express' Studio BR1 kit and those speakers are currently used as my front L/R speakers. These are a vast improvement over the Sony so-called "Dream System" HTIB I have.



Those have a lot of bang for the buck (particularly when PE puts them on sale). I assembled some last year, using Dennis Murphy's crossover network revision ( http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=pe_br1.html ). Great sounding speakers.


-Dan


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Your first post is on our little thread! I'll be the first to say WELCOME! Good luck with the build and don't forget that there is now an entire diy speaker forum at AVS. I guess this thread was too big and maybe too old to move.


----------



## SVonhof

As Jeff already said, welcome to the forum! Don't know if you are a long time lurker like many, but read up and post up because there are lots of good people that either love to see your progress and help you out or want to learn from what you are doing. Remember, that you need a minimum number of posts before you can add any url's or pictures, so keep posting and get that post count up!


In the meantime, I have been working on a design to replace my two Titanic1000 kits from Parts Express. I will be going with a single box for both that will have 4" ports about 36" long, to tune it to about 22 hz. I will place it in the corner of the room and it will be covered with GOM to match the lower portions of the walls and have baseboard and chair-rail to match the walls next to it in order to blend right in! The top will be oak stained to match the trim, but will have the port openings toward the back.


I am still trying to figure out what do to as far as amplification for these, since I have the 250 watt amps that came in the kit, but I think I want to run both drivers off of one amp so I don't drive one more than another since they are in the same box.


Here is an image:










Anyone want to trade two 250 watt plate amps for a 500 watt amp?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Scott,

That's a nice looking design and an excellent idea. Of all the subwoofers I've seen, the trim and matching GOM is a first.


----------



## SVonhof

I want it to blend in instead of stick out like a sore thumb. Problem is, I will have to totally re-do it if I ever want it somewhere else! It fits one purpose, one location, which should be fine for me.


----------



## moonhawk

FYI, North Creek Music is shutting down the kit and hobbyist portion of its business as of the end of Sept.


Anyone thinking of building one of George's fine speaker designs should be aware....

http://northcreekmusic.com/


----------



## SVonhof

Dynaudio used to sell to the DIY crowd until they decided to sell their own speakers as complete units. Don't know if that's what North Creek is doing, but there is no way I could even afford a Dynaudio speaker system.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

That's what they're doing. There is a lengthy explanation on their website.


----------



## chambl




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DLK* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Those have a lot of bang for the buck (particularly when PE puts them on sale). I assembled some last year, using Dennis Murphy's crossover network revision ( Great sounding speakers.
> 
> 
> -Dan



I wasn't aware there was a XO modifcation for the BR1's. Though I've used the stock crossovers, I'm still very happy with them. Before setting up the music system, I never really understood what people meant when they said, "it was like hearing a favourite song for the first time again" until experiencing myself with the BR1's. Before that, all I ever had were commercially made speaker systems (e.g. Panasonic, Sony, etc.). Music was good, but it wasn't an experience. About two year's ago, when my wife and I visited my brother, my wife emphatically complemented my brother's stereo system. Though his system is over 15 years old, it still sounded phenomenal.


At that point, I decided to start setting up a music system for my wife. The player I have is a modified Samsung HD841 (universal player). Previously, I had a modified Toshiba DVD/CD player. Through modding the Toshiba player, I discovered how vast an improvement can be made by changing out some capacitors and diodes, etc. in an ordinary player. After finding out about the superiority of SACDs and DVD audio discs, I had to have a universal player. Coincidentally, I also found the plans to modify the Samsung unit.


Seeing the potential in the DIY world, I wondered if such a thing existed in the speaker world. Lo-and-behold, it was everywhere on the net







. At the time, I wasn't prepared to build speakers from scratch, so I started with the Dayton BR1's. I wasn't disappointed.


Now that I have the confidence and the space, I am building the Audax HT's. These are speakers that I want to keep for a long, long time, so I thought I might as well do a very good job with them. I bought the kits from Madisound, though opted not to buy the cabinets with them. Solen also sells the Audax kits and is not far from me, but their prices were higher than Madisound's. I realise now that the price difference may be accounted for in the XO components (Solen likely provides all Solen caps while Madisound used Solen caps with some others). No matter...


So this is where I am at...


----------



## DLK




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chambl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wasn't aware there was a XO modifcation for the BR1's. Though I've used the stock crossovers, I'm still very happy with them.



I did this mainly on the strength of Dennis' reputation as a loudspeaker system/crossover designer, which others here can vouch for. (besides, anybody who likes dogs enough to design a system to raise funds for the ASPCA can't be all bad







)

I have the pieces to do the d'Appolito/Audax front array, which I'll assemble when I get the time. I'm currently running a temporary 2.0 HT setup using the Dickason/Audax 651 design (the drivers for this design are no longer available). I've also build a stereo setup using the Dickason/Audax 652 design. Both of these systems sound good.


-Dan


----------



## chambl




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your first post is on our little thread! I'll be the first to say WELCOME! Good luck with the build and don't forget that there is now an entire diy speaker forum at AVS. I guess this thread was too big and maybe too old to move.



To both Jeff and Scott, thanks for the warm welcome. If I do encounter any issues as I build these speakers, I will certainly ask here.


So far it's been going well. The top and sides of the center speaker and the top-bottom and sides of the L/R speakers have been glued so far. The center sub-enclosure has also been assembled. For the holes, instead of using a jasper jig, a circle cutting tool (I have no idea what it's called) was found. It attaches to a drill press (see picture).


I've attached another of pic the progress by the end of yesterday. Now these simple pieces of wood are starting to look more like speakers.







I will be continuing to do some work on these on Monday (holiday!)


----------



## chambl

Another day, another spewing of MDF dust everywhere.


I'm realising just how much work will have to go into building these cabinets, and deciding to flush mount everything is no small detail. I worked on the cabinets for 5 hours today and all I managed to get done was cutting out the remaining holes, rabbetting all the holes and installing the ports on the center speaker.


Here's a pic of the center baffle and the braces for the L/R speakers: [ack! see attachment]


Mind you, there were some problems faced through the day. There were no problems for the hole cutting, though we did face some issues with the rabbetting. The shop where I am building these speakers do not have a 1/2" rabbett bit. They only had a 3/8" rabbett. We played around with the bearing and we finally managed to cut almost all the rabbetts such that the speakers were flush. Notice I said," ALMOST." For the mid driver and the ports on the center speaker, we were short just 1/32".







After some brainstorming, we decided to attach a sanding cylinder to the drill press and sand out the rabbetts. Now the ports are fitting VERY snugly.


Here's a pic:

[see attachment]


I need some help from you guys. I have bought mahogany veneer off ebay. It is raw (i.e. no paper backing). We want to use the white glue/iron on technique. Does anybody have pointers in terms of applying the mahogany flitches such that they are seamless and to go around 1/2" roundovers. We want to avoid using a vacuum (i.e. purely ironing). We discussed this at length today and another guy recommended using epoxy, or cutting a wood "mould" and clamp it into the corner when the veneer is glued on. It was also suggested to glue down the mahogany on paper, and then glue the paper-backed veneer on the cabinets. If anybody can help, it would be really appreciated.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chambl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need some help from you guys. I have bought mahogany veneer off ebay. It is raw (i.e. no paper backing). We want to use the white glue/iron on technique. Does anybody have pointers in terms of applying the mahogany flitches such that they are seamless and to go around 1/2" roundovers. We want to avoid using a vacuum (i.e. purely ironing). We discussed this at length today and another guy recommended using epoxy, or cutting a wood "mould" and clamp it into the corner when the veneer is glued on. It was also suggested to glue down the mahogany on paper, and then glue the paper-backed veneer on the cabinets. If anybody can help, it would be really appreciated.



Usually the iron on/PVA glue method is not recommended for raw veneers, it's more suited to paper backed. You have to be careful that the glue does not bleed through on raw veneer. And trying to add your own paper backing to a raw veneer is not something that most people would recommend trying. You may also need to use a veneer softener solution with your raw veneer no matter which way you go, to avoid possible problems. There are many other glues and methods to use, and they all have their own pros/cons to them. There are even other glues that you can use that iron on, as well as adhesive sheets that you can use with a iron. I can't say for sure if they are any better or not. But some claim that the adhesive sheets are problematic with bubbling up later on, so I don't think I myself would try that on a large project.


You may want to look at some of these.

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/glues.htm 


Now if you belive what they say about this glue called "Heatlock", it may be the better way to go over using normal PVA glue.


http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneeri...-veneering.htm 

http://www.betterbond.com/heatlock/heatlock-FAQ.htm 

http://www.joewoodworker.com/catalog...roducts_id=737


----------



## chambl




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnla* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Usually the iron on/PVA glue method is not recommended for raw veneers, it's more suited to paper backed. You have to be careful that the glue does not bleed through on raw veneer. And trying to add your own paper backing to a raw veneer is not something that most people would recommend trying. You may also need to use a veneer softener solution with your raw veneer no matter which way you go, to avoid possible problems. There are many other glues and methods to use, and they all have their own pros/cons to them. There are even other glues that you can use that iron on, as well as adhesive sheets that you can use with a iron. I can't say for sure if they are any better or not. But some claim that the adhesive sheets are problematic with bubbling up later on, so I don't think I myself would try that on a large project.



Interesting. I think I will be picking up some of their softener and the adhesive. Thanks for the info. In terms of getting a perfect seam using the softener and heatlock, do you have any recommendations? Have you tried the "wire hanger" technique on Joe's site? Does it work?


----------



## Johnla

I have only used paper backed veneers, with both contact cement and the iron on PVA method. I prefer the iron on just for the lack of fumes and more importantly the ability to be able to reposition the veneer. As with contact cement, once it touchs you are pretty much committed and screwed at the same time if it's positioned wrong in any way. I have heard of some other variations of using the "wire hanger" method working well for people, to make the seams tighter. But I never used them myself.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

If you want to use the glue and iron technique, you'll need paper backed veneer. I've purchased all my veneer from oakwoodveneer.com They have a very nice selection, excellent shipping and service. I've purchased from them probably 8 times.


Edit: I must have been posting at the same time as johnla. Like him, I like the glue on method for the same reasons. However, that's all I've ever used.


----------



## chambl

According to the Joeworkworker website, Heat Lock could be used on raw veneer for the iron-on technique. Though the site is not working at this time, I will order the adhesive and softener once it's back online.


If i understand correctly, this should be the sequence I should prepare the veneer:


1. spray with softener

2. dry flitches (perhaps use iron)

3. tape down each flitch and apply heat lock adhesive

4. let dry

5. position on cabinets and iron on; use hanger technique for seams


For the hanger technique, is this the proper method to follow:


1) lay down a veneer flitch against the ironed flitch

2) place a hanger wire ~2" away under the unironed flitch

3) iron the seam up to the hanger wire

4) from the other side of the hanger wire, iron the rest of the veneer towards the edges

5) remove the wire

6) say a little prayer

7) iron the flitch towards the seam


I received word that the veneer was delivered today. I'm excited to see it when I get home tonight....


----------



## BigguyZ

Holy crap- I can't believe this thread is active once again. I thought for sure it'd be dead and gone forever....


So- I STILL haven't finished my entire set!!! I've been working on and spending my $$ on creating a woodworking workshop. Has anyone else gotten into woodworking after building their speakers? I really find it interesting and want to take a stab at some furniture and cabinetry. Speakers- the gateway drug of DIY.


So, once I'm all set in my basement I just need to finish my center, and the stands for my surrounds. Also, I need to refinish the mains.


What's the best way to remove a finish (Lacquer, I think) without damaging the veneer beneath? I have a ton or runs that I just didn't have the knowledge to fix. The Wipe on Poly I used for the surrounds looks so good I want to redo the mains with that....


----------



## SVonhof

Stippers come in all varieties. Your best bet is to go to your local paint store or non-big-box hardware store (think more like ACE hardware stores and such) where you can talk to somebody that has the knowledge base and ask what to use. There are some that are better than others and some that are less caustic than others as well. BTW, you will need to know exactly what it is that you used to get the best info.


I have used this stuff and it wasn't bad to deal with:








http://www.bixmfg.com/SprayOn.htm


----------



## trekguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigguyZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Holy crap- I can't believe this thread is active once again. I thought for sure it'd be dead and gone forever....
> 
> 
> What's the best way to remove a finish (*Lacquer, I think*) without damaging the veneer beneath? I have a ton or runs that I just didn't have the knowledge to fix. The Wipe on Poly I used for the surrounds looks so good I want to redo the mains with that....



If it is just lacquer, lacquer thinner will immediately soften and dissolve the finish. If there is a layer under that such as an oil or water based stain, the lacquer thinner will not remove it, nor harm the veneer.


You may find that lightly rubbing the runs with a clean cloth dampened in thinner will remove most of the high spots. You can then use thousand grit or bette paper to wet sand the area level. If the gloss needs to be restored automobile rubbing compound (scratch and haze remover- not the dead paint take it to the primer compound) or rotten stone used with water or paint thinner will bring back a gloss finish. Or knock down the runs and reapply lacquer. Auto paint suppliers will have anything you need (other than rotten stone that is a paint store item).


----------



## moonhawk

trekguy:


Great sig!!


But if you're gonna dream, why not dream really big?....


----------



## trekguy

Moonhawk-


Thanks. But I never share _dreams_.


Now if I could just figure out a way to put my JBL Centuries to use.


----------



## chambl

I got a little further over the past weekend. I glued the front baffles on and clamped on the subenclosure in the center speaker:









[/IMG]







[/IMG]


I brought the cabinets home so I could get a little more work done on them. I've glued on the foam, removed all of the screws, and filled most of the holes with wood putty.


Here are the L/R speakers with the back baffle of the center speaker on top:









[/IMG]


Here's the back view of the center speaker:









[/IMG]


Only one bracer is currently in place as the other brace is about 1/32" too big to fit. A little sanding will bring the brace down to size. I couldn't glue the brace seen on the left as it is 1/8" too high.


----------



## Duaner

nice pics chamble... keep up the good work


I just wanted to give y'all an update on my audax speakers... I was finally able to find time to take them to a hi end audio store and hook them up to a decent receiver... a denon 3806. Wow. I was considering my next purchase be the materials for the dayton rf series plans that I think Joe L. is building... where is joe anyways? But anyways, I think now I am going to pursue the aquisition of another receiver. I am not sure if I want a denon for sure, I'd like to look at the pioneer elite series too, but man alive the difference between the denon and my little sony. There was so much volume, it was just insane, but what amazed me most was the clarity at such high volume levels. And I am proud to say, that my audax speakers handled everything that denon could put out... and the guys who worked at the shop were fairly impressed as well... These speakers are better than I had even realized.


Duane


----------



## pctec

Wow! This thread is an absolute wealth of info!









Thanks to all


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Duaner* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was considering my next purchase be the materials for the dayton rf series plans that I think Joe L. is building... where is joe anyways?



I'm still around, but have not had time to work on my new Dayton RS based center channel. Work and family obligations somehow take priority, and I have the Audax HT series now, so it is not like I'm lacking for good sound.


> Quote:
> And I am proud to say, that my audax speakers handled everything that denon could put out... and the guys who worked at the shop were fairly impressed as well... These speakers are better than I had even realized.
> 
> 
> Duane



I think most of us feel much the same way about our DIY Audax speakers. They may not be the best in the world, but they sure aren't anywhere near the worst, and they probably held their own against everything at that high-end store. (unless it was really high end)


Joe L.


----------



## chambl

It's been a while since I last posted, but I have been keeping up with the work on the speakers. The cabinets are now fully assembled, braces and all. During the past week, I've been working on the speaker stands.


I've used the Heat Lock stuff (1st time ever) and I'm quite happy with it. The glue did not bleed through the veneer and the wood seems to be fairly well adhered to the stands. The wood did crack in a couple locations, though adding some wood softener will probably keep that from happening again. I sanded the edges and the stands look like they were made from a solid block. I was really surprised at how seamless it looked. I then proceeded with staining the stands with Minwax Ebony stain. It took 3 coats to get them to the "blackness" that I wanted.


Tomorrow, I will hopefully sand the cabinets, round-over the edges and start work on the floating shelf. Here's some pics of the shelf and stands


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Very nice job. We'll be cranking up ours tonight.


----------



## Duaner

Has anyone here had their audax speakers hooked up to the new panasonic sa-xr57 "digital" receivers. (class d amplifiers I think)? Just finished reading the thread here at avs on them and apparently they are very very good, and a steal for the price... at least with respect to sonics. (bells and whistles type features are another story I guess)


Some have said that the digital amps do not pair up well with speakers that are considered to be "bright." I don't consider the audax to be bright, but I was wondering what others think.


Duane


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duaner,

I'm still using an HK7200.

jh


----------



## chambl

The speaker project is very near completion. It was a bit of a mad dash over the last week, as things at work picked up at the same time as I picked up the pace to finish the speaker project.


After rounding over the edges, I was ready to start veneering. This pic shows the Heat Lock adhesive applied to all sides of the speakers











After sanding, the hole where the magnet was put looked like the other holes for gluing the panels together. I should have done this step before applying the glue, though it slipped my mind. Nonetheless, there were no problems when adding the magnets at this step











The following few days involved veneering all of the sides. I veneered all sides that did not share a round-over edge. This was pretty straight-forward, except for the occasional crack in the veneer, especially near the edges. For the remaining sides, I used veneer tape to put the veneer flitches together, then applied softener to the entire surface on both sides. I let the veneer dry through the day, and by the time I came home from work, it was dry. It still felt pretty stiff, though I could manipulate the veneer far more than before. I applied the glue and allowed it to dry. Here comes the tricky part: I first ironed down the front section, then proceeded to the sides (or the top piece for the center speaker). For one of the front speakers, the veneer went on slightly crooked. Damn. Oh well, hopefully it won't show too too much. The others went on fairly well, though the veneer slightly pulled away at the seams for the front speakers. It's not very noticeable, though it's definitely there. Perhaps I should have used the clothes-hanger technique. Since I didn't have a router with me, I tried cutting out the driver holes with an Xacto knife. At first, it was quite rough, the edges weren't smooth. Later, as I got the hang of it, I could cut up to the edge, and the line was smooth. I just needed the right angle and motion to do it right. Taking a moment to muse on the texture and appearance of the mahogany veneer, I think I made a good choice. The pattern isn't very distracting, so it won't take away from the music listening experience.



















I brought everything back to the workshop, since all pieces were ready for sanding. I realised that round-over edges should have been sanded by hand, since the orbital sander is too difficult to control on non-flat surfaces. As you may guess, I sanded down a rounded-over corner down to the MDF. I filled it with wood filler, and hoped that it won't show too much As for the rest of the surfaces, they felt much smoother than before.


I then applied the stain. For the speakers, I had a Varathane oil-based stain. The color was called, cabernet, a rich-red appearance. Funny, but it smelled a little like wine too .











I was told that the way it will look when wet is how it will approximately look when the lacquer is applied. I was very satisfied just after one coat.


I returned the following day to begin lacquering. On the speakers, I saw that the veneer was separating from the cabinets! I tried re-ironing the lifted parts, and it worked well enough. It seemed that it was only on the pieces that were treated with the softener that were lifting off. All other veneered surfaces stayed intact. At least all that it took was a quick ironing. I also saw that some of the stain seeped under veneer at the edges. Maybe the stain reacted poorly with the softened wood.


In any case, I lacquered the cabinets, floating shelf and stand components. The speakers and floating shelf got 3 coats while the stands got 2 coats. For the first two, I could see the stain become richer and richer with each coat added. I was more than happy with 3 coats. For the stands, I didn't want them to become too reflective. Two coats gave a nice sheen, but not so much that it became distractive. During spraying, I was at times too close, too far, too fast and too slow . Eventually I got the hang of it. Spray-lacquering, when done right, is a bit of an art.



















All parts were brought home and then the final steps began, beginning with the actual assembly of the speakers. I soldered on the wires to the terminals, to ensure that nothing becomes loose at a later time. I discovered that I could not heat the driver terminals for too long, as they were merely held by plastic. As you might guess, they became loose for some drivers. No matter, I just added some yellow glue to the plastic holders and allowed it to dry with the terminals pushed in. That worked fine


During the staining step, I didn't think of applying stain to the routered part of the driver holes. After putting in one of the drivers, I could see the bare unstained MDF around the driver; I stuck out like a sore thumb. I removed the driver and applied the stain all around the hole, thankfully it absorbed into the MDF, despite the lacquer on it. I did the same with the rest of the holes.











Now I was ready to hook everything up. I first checked the terminals with a multimeter to make sure that there was no short. All terminals read between 8 - 9 ohms, so it seems to be alright. I connected the speakers up to my amp, took a deep breath, and turned on the receiver (radio function) and amp. Hallelujah, it plays! By this time, it was late at night, so I could not turn up the volume. From what I heard, the sound was good, but it wasn't great. I left the system playing with a 5.1 DVD audio disc on repeat mode at very low volume through the night. By the morning, the sound became much better, and also seemed to have become louder. I then started hearing more of the speakers' potential.











That evening, I installed the floating shelf. Even though it seemed fairly well anchored to the wall, I still didn't feel comfortable with a 50-60lb speaker sitting on it. I opted to get supports under the shelf. I found that the shelf was low enough such that the supports could not be easily seen. I installed the center speaker wire in-wall.


All I have left to do is to assemble the speaker stands, since I made the walls with ½ MDF, that doesn't give me much room for error. At a later time, I will head back to the workshop, cut a few 1 braces and glue them on the inside edge of the stands. That will give me enough room to securely screw in the top and bottom panels. I also need to install spikes on the bottom of the stands.


Apart from this, the project is essentially complete. I've learned a ton of things through this (or these) project(s). I've used industrial grade equipment, learned to cut holes in wood, apply non-paper backed veneer, spray on lacquer, and much more. It took almost 2 months to complete these speakers and their accessories, but it was worth it. When I sit down and just look at the speakers, I get this awe-struck sense of accomplishment, that *I* built these speakers. I've never undertaken such a big project before, but I'm glad that it turned out very well in the end.


So now I can finally sit back and enjoy the music (and my new apartment for that matter) and experience the way multi-channel SACDs and DVD audio discs are meant to be heard. I'm glad to be a member of the Audax HT speaker club, and hope that others who wish to build these speakers find this thread and extract the same valuable information from it as I have


----------



## Johnla

Hey, those do look nice. And I like the color that you used to stain them. Good work!


----------



## moonhawk

Very nice work, Chambl.


I'm getting ready to start my final round of NorthCreeks, the mains and centers...I'll keep you guys posted.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Bea-u-ti-ful!


----------



## Duaner




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chambl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It took almost 2 months to complete these speakers and their accessories, but it was worth it. When I sit down and just look at the speakers, I get this awe-struck sense of accomplishment, that *I* built these speakers. I've never undertaken such a big project before, but I'm glad that it turned out very well in the end.




I think that's the way most of us feel about our diy speakers projects. It's been about 1.5 years since I completed my Audax set, and it still feels great every time I turn them on. Sat down with them for a while tonight as a matter of fact.


Congrats on the fantastic job... they look awesome! Now do what you said you were going to do and sit back and enjoy!!
























Duane


----------



## mh7519

chambl - Very nice work! The color turned out great. Just placed my order to Northcreek (Echo set, because my room - and budget - aren't very big!). Hopefully mine will turn out just as nice.


----------



## technimac

Man, has this been a long haul. I started out lurking here over three years ago and was first inspired by JL's great photo record of his project. And then so many others contributed even more iterations of the Audax HT.


I ordered the drivers and crossover components two years ago and have been working on this in dribs and drabs. I chose the titanium dome version ala Wayne J's in the PE Showcase and decided to build a quad of MTM's for fronts and surrounds. This summer I decided to do the big push and complete them.


So now they're done and I figured it was time to share the result of my efforts. I figure the veneering was the toughest part, especially because I chose heavy flaked raw white oak veneer.


The veneer finish is Varathane teak gel stain topped with satin clear poly. The back, bottom and baffle are finished with flat black marine topped with sprayed clear satin poly. The pictures are pretty accurate at showing how well this matches the drivers.


Here are the photos:
























































In addition to building the Audax HT, at the same time I decided to build a quad of Modula MT's, which you can see at:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpos...&postcount=596 


Now I'll have to audition both sets and decide which I like the best and which has the better SAF rating. So far both sets sound great being driven by my Yamaha RX V-1500.


A huge thank-you to all the great guys on this board who have contributed so much to help me complete this project.


BTW, I used the Rockler HVLP spray system and was very happy with the results...once I discovered the fine line between "great coverage" and "the killer run".







I had to completely wipe off a freshly painted baffle with paint thinner more than once. It still beat having to sand out the runs once they dried. I also have to spray outside and it seems like the weather just held here until this week when I finished-up.


Cheers, Bruce


----------



## Johnla

Wow! Another very nice looking set of speakers. Good job!


----------



## Duaner

Very nice Technimac. Those are some real beauties. If I ever build another set of speakers, I am going to go with the black faces like that. Looks sweet.

Great job.


Duane


----------



## SVonhof

FYI, since the days are getting shorter and the pool colder, I decided it was time to start my new subwoofer cabinet. I went out and bought my MDF, Jasper Jig, 1/4 router bit, cabinet terminals, foam, t-nets and 4" ABS for the ports. Ready to go!


Started by cutting all my wood oversized, then writing the size and number code on each peice, so I could make sure I accounted for each peice and cut it correctly. Then, I finish cut each peice and penciled the markings on each one for the cut-outs. Not too exciting, but here is the pic:










Next, I started cutting out the areas in the bracing so that it would be an open cabinet. I learned a trick in the "Family Handiman Magazine that worked rather well for using a hole saw. Start your hole saw in the correct position and let the saw touch the wood. Then, drill two holes on each side of the soon-to-be hole, so that the sawdust can release through and out of the way, so it doesn't bind the saw. Then, start drilling again, stopping part way through and finishing from the other side.


















Then, cut out the rest and you get:










Then, get the circle jig going and 8 holes later:










I have not used the Jasper Jig before this, but it worked out great. I have four more holes to make, but they are big ones, for the drivers. I will do those maybe tomorrow. Let's see how much time I have tomorrow....


----------



## Johnla

Darn, it's getting to be like the old days when this thread was just getting on a roll with a full head of steam. With all these new construction and finished speaker photos being posted now.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Thanks for the update Mr V. I have the smaller Jasper Jig and used it for cupholders last week while building a Texas Holdem Poker Table. I'll be building another one in a week or so.


----------



## SVonhof

Jeff, the good news is, I get to play with the Jasper jig some more today! The thing works really well, although I need to get a shorter dowel pin, since the smaller cuts I was making didn't allow the pin to stick through the Jasper Jig (it hit the bottom of the router) and because of that, I had to drill a hole in my workbench area so it could stick all the way through. No big deal and it helped hold the workpiece in place since I didn't clamp or screw it in place.


----------



## moonhawk

Beauties, Technimac.


I have ordered my final set of kits from Northcreek music, the Vision signatures and Vision-C, to finish off my 7.2 setup. Will keep you guys posted.


Keep up the good work, everybody, and keep this thread going...


----------



## technimac

Thanks for the positive feedback gentlemen.


I'm very pleased with the way the baffles turned out. The satin professional poly Varathane dries very quickly and it's possible to do 3 coats in one day if that's what you want. It's incredibly hard once it cures, meaning that it's at the opposite end of the durability scale compared to the soft flat black marine enamel under it. I'll certainly use this technique again.


Cheers, Bruce


----------



## SVonhof

So, gotta love making speakers and subs.


I was building my new box for my dual 10" Titanics and decided to make sure they were going to fit with the holes I had cut.


Bummer. One of the drivers is the original Titanic 1000 and the other is an MKII model that they replaced the other with. Guess that's what happens when you don't buy them at the same time. Unfortunatly for me, not only did the specs change, but they also changed the size of the frame and the newer one is larger, which is what I used when I was measuring the holes... So, my old driver won't fit, won't be able to get any screws to catch wood.


So, what do I do?


Go back to the forum and get opinions. I was looking for a second 10" MKII, but then one of the guys said, if you go with a single 12" you can get better response down low, but the SPL will be a little lower as the freq goes up. I don't think that's a problem, so I found a great deal on a Titanic 1200 MKIII driver that was broken in for me already and got it today. The curves for this this thing are really good in a 4 cu ft box with 2 4" ports:









The chart above shows the white line as a single 12" Titanic MKIII driver and the blue shows two 10" Titanic MKII drivers (I would have to find a second MKII driver, since I only have one).


So, I will be modifying the box I already started:









to plug/cover the upper cut-out and enlarge the lower one so I can put a 12" driver in there. I found this out before I glued the front panel on, so I will re-make a front panel, since that way, I can eliminate the upper hole. Shouldn't be too hard. I have enough left-over from the original cutting to fix my problems.


I hope to be able to get to this Sunday after going golfing, but we shall see.


Original Titanic 1000 driver next to the new Titanic 1200 MKIII:


----------



## SVonhof

Plugged the old hole:









Modified the existing hole and made a new front plate to handle the larger sub:









Acoustic foam in place:









Ports in place, tuned to 19.5 hz:









Port holes routered flush and then rounded:









driver mounted:









Have to try it, right?









staining and applying laquer the top cap:


----------



## SVonhof

I guess I forgot to post on here with my completed sub pictures.


































I had some friends over on Saturday night to really give it a run-through and it held it's own during "Chronicles of Riddick". One of my friends was telling others today at work that it: "felt like the sound was moving around him in the room". And everyone was impressed with how much ultra-low-end was added. Sunday I watched "Underworld Evolutions" and after 1/2 hour, I stopped the movie and adjusted the channel levels on the a/v receiver, as I felt the sub was too much. It is more bearable now but still definatly there!



BTW, I have another friend who is looking for some speakers for his home theater. He has been looking around at Polk, Boston Acoustics, Energy and such and has also thought about doing the Audax HT kit. I know they are basically selling off what they have of the drivers, but what are his other options. I don't think he wants to make his own cabinets, but his neighbor is good for that stuff. He is looking for something that has plenty of mid-bass punch, as he is really lacking it right now with his dad's old speakers.


Anyone have opinions on the Dayton MTM kits and such from Parts Express? Or specific opinions on the Audax kits?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey Scott, It looks good! I know what your friend means about feeling the sound actually moving around him. We don't have bass shakers on our seats but you sure can feel it.


As for other projects, I think JL was building the new Dayton RS speakers. Parts Express still have Audax components. I haven't looked at Madisound lately.


----------



## moonhawk

Dude, holy crap!


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have opinions on the Dayton MTM kits and such from Parts Express? Or specific opinions on the Audax kits?



I think these are a lot better than the Dayton MTM kits, and yet they also use the same Parts Express pre-made cabinets. However because of the crossover parts used, they can be quite pricey when compared to the Dayton kits.


http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11321 



And for a bunch of other good designs, look here.


http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39


----------



## Dougie085

But i think the price vs performance on the Modula's is going to be A LOT better then the dayton kits. And the Natalie P's are probably a lot better then the Dayton kits as well and they are very reasonably priced. I've been concidering building the Nat P's.


see them here
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13969


----------



## SVonhof

Thanks guys, I passed on those three links to my buddy. His neighbor would probably be the one to complete the cabinet mods for him (modifying the Parts Express cabinets) if he decides to go that route. At least the majority of the work is done already though.


----------



## technimac

When considering the Natalie P's or the Modula MT's, you should know that Jon Marsh recently completed and posted _Non-BSC Versions_ of the crossovers for both of these.


That means you can flush-mount (in-wall) these designs easily.


He created two _Non-BSC Version_ crossover mods for the Modula MT. One is for either the Seas 27tdfc or tbfc/g, and the other is for the RS28. Nice to have choices.









http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22625 



Unfortunately there isn't a Seas tweeter version of the Natalie P (wish there was)







, but one builder of the _Non-BSC Version_ was very impressed with the sound compared to the regular Nat P's.

Note that you do need a 4ohm stable amp to drive any of the RS28 versions of these, especially the _Non-BSC_ iterations

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22626 


Good Luck,

Bruce


----------



## Dougie085

I believe all the DIY speakers require a 4ohm amp. And the guy that did the in wall version also had the boxed version and he said that the in wall sounded better to him.


----------



## SVonhof

Not every DIY speaker is set up for 4ohms, depends on the components used.


I had to look at the link to see what BSC (baffle step compensation) was.


----------



## Dougie085

A lot of them are though. Most of the ones on HTG are built for a 4ohm load.


----------



## technimac

Scott,

You did a great job on that sub. I hope my wife doesn't see it, because then there'll be a lot of pressure on me to cover any future projects with fabric. OTOH, maybe that's not a bad idea - in your case it appears to have worked out exceptionally well.









I'm running everything with a Yamaha RX V-1500 and have had no problems. But then the Seas 27TBFC/G that I'm using in the Modula MT's is a 6 ohm puppy, while the RS28 is only 4 ohms. For either of these Modula MT's though, total impedance is about 6 ohms. In addition, the lowest impedance occurs higher up, where there's less demand on the amp.









The _Non-BSC Version_ of the Natalie P's however, has impedance hovering around 3 ohms from about 150Hz upwards.









So if I were to build these, I'd want to have another amp, like a Behringer A500 connected to my Yammie preouts, to drive them safely.


Cheers, Bruce


----------



## Dougie085

Well I just bought a RX-V2400...I wanted to build the Dayton WMTW center and TMWW's. But I may just do the Nat P's of course I'm also looking at Aperion speakers.


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *technimac* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Scott,
> 
> You did a great job on that sub. I hope my wife doesn't see it, because then there'll be a lot of pressure on me to cover any future projects with fabric. OTOH, maybe that's not a bad idea - in your case it appears to have worked out exceptionally well.



Bruce, funny thing is, my wife never did any of the thinking on how this beast should look, she just listened to me and waited for me to finish it. I knew I wanted it to blend into the portion of the room it was going to be housed in and this was the only way I could figure out how to do it. I think it turned out great though!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *technimac* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So if I were to build these, I'd want to have another amp, like a Behringer A500 connected to my Yammie preouts, to drive them safely.



Don't the Behringer amps have fans in them though? I am still looking for an amp to drive my new sub and I would love to be able to put that amp in my equipment rack under the screen, but I don't want any fans! I just got my new projector a few months ago and the fan is almost silent, so much so that the satelite receiver's fan is louder than the projector, by far! No more fans!


The amp I am considering more than any other right now is the O Audio sub amp . I would love it if they made it in a rack mount or at least shelf mount case, but after talking with Todd Oiesen (I assume the O comes from his last name...), he can't justify the tooling, machining, finishing, additional hardware, assembly and UL/CE certification to do that. Unless everyone on here starts asking for it....










BTW, I will pass the info on to my buddy about the 3ohm on the Natalie P. That may be a killer for him with his Pioneer A/V receiver.


----------



## Dougie085

I believe its only the in wall that dips that low. The regular nat p i think is ok. What model pioneer does he have?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Scott,

What pj did you get? You had a Sony before didn't you? My BenQ7800 is now over 2yrs old and I'm getting the 1080p bug.


As for amps, yes, I believe the Behringers do have fans. Also, I don't believe the Audax system is 4ohm. I run mine on an HK7200 and it can handle 4ohms, so in my case it doesn't matter. The NPs are the one's that I think JL is building. They use the Dayton RS series drivers...I think.


----------



## SVonhof

Jeff, yes, I had the Sony VPL-VW10HT, which was over 5 years old and the bulb was in dire need of being changed. I had been running it at full power but only had just over 1060 hours on it (original bulb), so basically that means that I wasn't using it enough!










I went with the Sony VPL-HS51A after finding out that it is basically the same as the HS60, and was on sale at Best Buy for something like $1789, so I went and got it and found a local dealer who had the Chief Mount that matched with the one I already was using (swapped out the mounting plate and sold the old plate with the tilt mechanism). Had it hooked up and running within an hour of getting home. The new projector is almost silent, as I said above, and is just as bright (if not a little more), but has great contrast ratio thanks to the Auto-Iris. The commands were basically the same for my Pronto remote as well and of course, it is native 720p instead of 768p, which means it handles the 720p singnals from the satelite receiver, since the old one would choke on that. I have not run an HDMI cable as the component cables are in there and working fine.


Anyway, that's my story. New sub, new projector and new upconverting DVD player. I think that's it for now....


----------



## technimac

Dougie085,

Here's the impedance graph for the Natalie P with BSC:
http://audioworx.virtualave.net/NataliePZ.jpg 


Scott,

Yes, the Behringers do have fans and I just used that as an example. If I were to do this, the ideal would be an amp with a _honkin' huge passive heatsink_ to keep it stable and quiet










Currently we have an Optoma H27PJ whose fan is only noticeable during quiet passages in movies - and it's located just behind and above the primary seating position.









To hold us over until the Blu-ray/HD-DVD gladiator battle sorts itself out, I'm looking at getting an Oppo H971 with a DVI connection to feed it. I know the Oppo has been around for a while, but it plays PAL discs (and every other format including burned dual-layer discs), is region-free, and upconverts to 720P. Basically it's a good match for the PJ.


Jeff, Indeed, all the Audax HT speakers are 6ohms, so they are no problem for almost any half-decent HT receiver.


----------



## Dougie085

Ok so it does dip pretty low then. The RS28 should be a 3ohm tweeter but they have it marked as 4 ohms....oh well.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dougie085* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A lot of them are though. Most of the ones on HTG are built for a 4ohm load.



Actually most all MTM designs are usually 4ohms only because of the bad, and also unwanted side effect of the number of drivers used, and certainly not because they wanted them to be 4ohms. Because even with 8ohm woofer drivers and tweeters, when you use multiples of them it is difficult to come up with anything much over 4ohms as a finished design after they are all wired up in parallel with a crossover. Actually if you wanted to end up at 8ohms, you really would need to use 16ohm drivers for the two woofers in a parallel wired MTM design. And in fact there are even a few companies like GR Research that do offer a 6 1/2" 16ohm driver, just for this reason.

http://www.gr-research.com/drivers/m130_16.shtm


----------



## dlowman

I know these are not DIY's but Ed Frias makes a pair of 22 inch mtm's with kevlar cones for about $1300 a pair that have blow away everything and i do mean everything I have put them against. Best bang for any dollar I have every purchased. Pm me if you want his contact info.


Dan


----------



## SVonhof

Dan, sounds like they are DIY for Ed. Any pictures?


If you brought this up for my friend who is in the market, he is auditioning speakers now and unless Ed is in the area, it will be hard for my friend to test them out. He is very specific in the sound he wants and has to try them all to see if he gets what he wants.


----------



## Duaner

Well, after I acquired a 7.1 channel denon 3805 for xmas (used I must add) I decided that I needed to utilize at least one of the surround back channels, soooo....


I designed a "rear center channel" modeled after the Athena AS-R1.2. It's a dipole, or maybe just a bipole design using the drivers and xovers from the audax surround channels... of course, it's a little different in that I added an extra tweeter and tweeter xover to the mix. I realize this will change sensitivity and maybe some other factors, but from what I was told, the difference will be negligible. Since I don't know how to design xovers myself, this should work pretty well, and be fairly close to the rest of the speakers in the system.


I have the box put together, but not veneered yet. Here is a scale solidworks model of what it will look like. I will follow up later with pics of the finished box, and hopefully, by next month, pics of the finished speaker.


Duane


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey Duaner,

Isn't it better to use the dipole or bipole designs as surrounds and the standard speakers such as the Audax surrounds in the rear? Seems like I read that somewhere.


----------



## Duaner

Jeff,

From my understanding, the SL and SR channels are discrete channels, and are better served by monopole speakers, as they add good directionality. The surround back channel(s) are matrixed from the SL and SR, and are good for "filling in the gap" between the SL and SR... hence, a "phasey" unlocatable sound is more desireable... Whether or not I make this speaker bipole or dipole, I don't know... I'll just have to see how it sounds. My guess is bipole.


All that having been said, my surround left and right are dipole/bipole switcheable... set to bipole.


Duane


Duane


----------



## Duaner

Well, I finished up the cabinet for the new audax surround back channel speaker today. I took a picture of it with one of the front channel speakers so that those of you with audax speakers can get a feel for the size of it. You will notice that it is slightly darker in color than the mains... oh well... not everything can be perfect.


I am going to order the xover components shortly so I can actually use this thing. Should work pretty good.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Duaner* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, I finished up the cabinet for the new audax surround back channel speaker today. I took a picture of it with one of the front channel speakers so that those of you with audax speakers can get a feel for the size of it. You will notice that it is slightly darker in color than the mains... oh well... not everything can be perfect.



Once you get the rear and center channels mounted at opposite ends of the room, nobody will ever notice the slight difference in color. Heck, I don't think there is any way to even see both at the same time when one is in front of you and the other behind... unless you have eyes on the sides/back of your head







.


Looking good... Let us know how it sounds when you get a bit further along.


----------



## Duaner

well hello there joe! How is that new dayton reference series coming? I have been waiting to hear what you have to say.


Yes, the front center and the rear center are about 30' apart... but the color is pretty drastric. I wish there was a way to make the rest of my speakers darker, but I don't think that's possible since they have been polyurethaned. Ahh well... c'est la vie.


If I could find a buyer for my audax speakers, I think I would sell them and start over with the dayton reference series. But finding a buyer for homemade speakers is difficult in the area that I live. More than anything else, I just love building speaker cabinets... I don't really need anything better than my current system. Besides, that dayton center channel looks like a behemoth... I am not sure I want a bigger center than I already have.


later

duane


----------



## moonhawk

Hey Duaner, lookin good!


I bet you could darken the other speakers with a glaze...sort of a combination of varnish and stain as I understand it.


Never tried it myself, but I bet some here have...or just Google "Glazing"


Good luck!


----------



## Johnla

You can also get tinted polyurethanes, which is just polyurethane already mixed with a stain. And also other finishes that are combined with stains.


http://www.minwax.com/products/onestep/Polyshades.cfm 

http://www.minwax.com/products/onestep/woodsheen.cfm 

http://www.cabotstain.com/cabot/popup/?wid=ipoly


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Did anyone notice that this thread had another birthday back in Sept? Fours years and counting.


----------



## SVonhof

Crazy. 4 years?!


I have been at least an observer for much of that, but did take a siesta part way through and came back to it probably a year later...


----------



## WGubbe

I too have followed this thread for years. I used much of the info in all the posts dealing with the construction of the Audax speakers to help me build mine. A great wealth of info here. Let's hope we see another 4 years.










Regards, Bill


----------



## Duaner

I tried the "glazing." I mixed some leftover stain I had with some leftover polyurethane and put a coat on one of the main speaker's bottom panel... didn't change it a bit. The extra poly made the satin finish a little nicer, but no darker. Maybe with more coats it would get darker, but I don't think I want to chance messing these up. So for now, my lone dark surround back channel will have to remain a black sheep.


duane


----------



## Johnla

Yeah it's probably best to leave it alone now after trying a test on the bottom of one to make them a little bit darker, but with no success.


----------



## Ted White

Just thought I'd check in on this old thread. Crazy that it's still going. A lot of great posts in here. This DIY aspect is really what made this forum what it is.


----------



## technimac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Duaner* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I don't really need anything better than my current system. Besides, that dayton center channel looks like a behemoth... I am not sure I want a bigger center than I already have.



It's great to see this thread's still going. Gotta say that many of you here are responsible for helping me successfully build the speakers that we enjoy on a daily basis. Thank you, the HT works just fine.


Duane,

I built four Audax MTM's (titanium-dome tweeter version) plus the WMTW center as well as four Modula MT's (Seas 27TBFC/G version).

I've run both sets of speakers with music and movies (using the Audax center with the Modula's) and each has its benefits.

I'm no audio expert, but I think the "higher efficiency" Audax MTM's pack a bit more punch in movies. And the voicing does seem quite accurate.


However, the Modula MT's certainly do it for me in terms of SQ.

Instruments like horns, strings and piano are crystal-clear. The vocals of female singers like Sarah McLachlan and Diana Krall have unbelievable clarity and depth (I'm not exactly sure how to accurately describe this _etherial_ quality of female voices).

Guitar and Sax? Played some _Larry Carlton Collection (Blues For TJ & Hello Tomorrow)_ ...and wow! _Eagles - Farewell 1 Tour - Live From Melbourne_ gave these puppies a fairly good workout as well. No problem for the MT's.


Presently I'm waiting for Jon Marsh to complete his design for an RS180-based WMTW center using an RS52 mid with either the Vifa D26NC55 or Seas 27TFFNC/G tweeter. He's also working on another variant (for his own HT system) using HiVi D6.8's instead of the RS180's. All of these would be designed around the stock PE MTM 1.0cu/ft cabinet whose baffle is 22"x9". So this center will be smaller than my current Audax WMTW.










Here's the thread:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...2&page=1&pp=35 


Once I've got an RS180-based WMTW center completed, I'll probably sell the Audax HT system.

Then I might be tempted build another couple of Modula MT's (non-BSC version) for L&R back speaker duty and perhaps a pair of RS180-based TMWW fronts (if Jon gets that design done).


I think I like building speakers!










Oh, if any of you James Bond fans haven't discovered the digitally-remastered _Ultimate_ series yet... they are phenomenal. We've watched a number of these, upconverted to 720P with the DTS 5.1 audio track pumping out great sound....lotsa fun!


Cheers, Bruce


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *technimac* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Presently I'm waiting for Jon Marsh to complete his design for an RS180-based WMTW center using an RS52 mid with either the Vifa D26NC55 or Seas 27TFFNC/G tweeter.



Yeah I'm waiting for that design by him to be finalized also. I have enough RS180's left over to make one even after building three of the Modula MTM 1's, and two of the Modula MT's. And also have one RS52 standing by and ready to go. The HiVi 6.8's look really nice, but that also would be a bunch of money to convert over to them from the RS180's, with them going for $65 each. Not to mention Jon rarely, if ever, takes any shortcuts in his excellent crossover designs.


----------



## technimac

I'm very impressed with the RS180's and agree that the $65 price X ?? speakers I would use, keeps me in the RS180 camp.


Besides, at 12 mounting holes per driver, the screw cost is double that of the RS180's.










Besides, John Krutke noted in the HT Guide thread that'

"_If I were going to use an inset magnet large voice coil woofer, the D6.8 would probably be the one. A nice step above Dynaudio and Morel. I could see them being a choice for a smallish box. *But otherwise, I'd take the RS180 myself*. I think everyone these days wants to do a TMWW with the RS52 and a couple RS180s, with good reason - nice, cheap combo."_










Looks like the RS52 should be back in stock at PE by this Friday but the Vifa D26NC55 isn't going to be at Madisound until April...Sheesh! Check out Zaph's _Mini-waveguide mod_ on this tweeter as reported on his blog.










That faceplate shape or the availability timeline just may be reason enough for me to use the Seas 27TFFNC/G instead. Not that that would be a poor choice.


Oh yes, Jon does create some pretty phenomenal crossovers.


----------



## penngray

why wasnt this moved to the DIY speaker forum?


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> why wasnt this moved to the DIY speaker forum?



Don't honestly know... It certainly qualifies










It did exist WAY prior to the DIY speaker forum...


If it was moved, nobody would know where to find it... Unless a "Moved to DIY Speakers......." was left here as a placeholder.


Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof

Joe, if they moved it, everyone would be notified to the proper location next time it was updated, right?


----------



## penngray

I just find it funny, it still gets replies and pictures. There is lots of action in the DIY Speaker forum. Lots of projects and so on.


I was thinking it must just have its own "cult" following


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> why wasnt this moved to the DIY speaker forum?



It's doing OK here. It has a nice home..









Besides, over there it would not be found much if any easier than it is here. Seeing as about 95% of what goes on there is mostly subwoofer stuff.


----------



## technimac

ohhhh..... Cult?










Is there a dress code?


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *technimac* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ohhhh..... Cult?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a dress code?



Yes... you get to wear MDF sawdust every once in a while... and a dust-mask.


I think I agree with Johnla, perhaps I'll make a post in the DIY Speaker forum pointing to this thread. That way, this thread can stay here, live onward, and everyone's bookmarks will be valid.


Too much valuable info to lose track of... that's for sure.


Joe L.


----------



## technimac

J.L.

A post in the DIY Speaker forum with a link to this one is a great idea.


This cult will need a "secret handshake" too....


maybe with PVA glue-covered hands.


----------



## SVonhof

Well, here is my latest contribution:

So, I built a new subwoofer for my home theater and it is designed with a nice flat response down to 19hz. But the amp I have been using for it so far is only 250 watts (into 4 ohms) and has a stupid bump in the frequency response right around 29hz as well as being a plate style amp made to mount to the box, which I didn't want. Hey, I was borrowing the amp from another sub, what can you do?


So, I finally made my decision and bought my new amp. Stable to 2 ohms, rated at just under 1100 watts at 4 ohms and almost 2200 watts at 2 ohms. It can sit in my rack and not stand out, has auto turn-on, will not get hot as I won't be using anywhere near the power it can punch (and it is a digital switching amp which works great for subwoofers) and has a nice flat response itself. I will actually hook it up either after dinner tonight or tomorrow when I get home, no big deal.


Here are some pics:










































This amp is made by Buttkicker and is actually designed to drive their brand of tactile transducers (shakers) that you mount in seats, couches, or complete platforms and hook up to the LFE channel (the .1 on the audio). They take a lot of power, so people in the past have had to use pro audio gear, and used adapters to make it work with the home audio gear, this was the solution.


Like I said, these work great for subwoofers as they don't have any audio problems below something like 300 hz, but will not work for full range speakers. But, dollar for dollar, they are a great bargain for what you get. I got mine from Amazon for $280 with free shipping.


----------



## penngray

Since Im still so damn excited about my IB sub that I built in my new home 2 months ago I will post the finish pics of it here too







Gotta be in a thread with 83 pages



















Can you spot them?










4 Q18s, 2400 Watts. total cost under $1500. Moving a 100LB mdf board (2 mdfs thick, 20x80" long) to fit snug between two trusses in an attic without falling through is a miracle.


----------



## SVonhof

penngray, I assume that the drivers are mounted in the attic and fire into a cabinet and then out through those "vents" into the room? Or did you make it so that they are just barely above those "vents"? Also, do you get much vibration from it?


----------



## penngray

The Drivers are mounted into a board (2 very sturdy MDF boards glued together) with 18" holes cut through it. The board is then mounted between the trusses and then re-inforced perpendicular with 4 2x6s running out 10 feet for vibration support.


This is an IB Array so there is no cabinet, those speaker covers actualy cover each 18" driver. The attic is essentially the subs box.


So far I have not seen any vibrations or problems with the sub, ceiling or the attic.


----------



## SVonhof

Yeah, I understand about the IB and everything, but some people will make a plenum of sorts for the drivers to fire into (opposed drivers to eliminate the vibrations caused by the movement of the drivers) and then port that into the room that's why I was asking.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So far I have not seen any vibrations or problems with the sub, ceiling or the attic.



Either you are not playing your IB sub very loud, or the nick-knacks on the entertainment shelf unit are epoxied in place...


Otherwise, I can be certain you would be on a rattle hunt. I went on my first when I built a sonosub with a single 15" drive with a displacement of 2.5L or air. I had a second hunt when I replaced it with a sub with two 18" drivers displacing a total of 13L of air. I ended up weatherstripping closet doors and even had to silence doorknobs rattling in the doors.


There's no way you have turned your 4 18" drivers up very loud, and not had at least one rattle. Unnless you used very low xmax drivers, they have to displace more air than my sub and be more than capable of shaking your structure.













































How much power are you feeding your IB sub? (Very nice install, by-the-way. guests will not suspect it is there until the LFE effects begin.)



Edit: I just re-read... 2400 watts... Nice...

Joe L.


----------



## penngray

J.L,


no on, there is rattle and shake







These 4 drivers produce the biggest displacement each on the market. From driver comparison charts they are tops in huge performance vs $$$


I was talking about vibrations causing actually damage, I already had to deal with lots of cabinet glass vibrations.



> Quote:
> guests will not suspect it is there until the LFE effects begin.)



Yeah, its an incredible feeling.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> J.L,
> 
> 
> no on, there is rattle and shake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> I was talking about vibrations causing actually damage, I already had to deal with lots of cabinet glass vibrations.



OK... Now I understand... your IB sub has not caused any structural damage to your (or any neighbor's) home that you know of, but you have rattled a plate or two.





















(my faith in basic physics has been restored)


> Quote:
> Yeah, its an incredible feeling.



I know...


My Proscenium Sub...
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...ght=proscenium 


Joe L.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey Scotty V,

You got a great deal on that amp! It's now $350 at Amazon.


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Scotty V,
> 
> You got a great deal on that amp! It's now $350 at Amazon.



You talking to me Jeff? I just checked and it's sitting at $272 right now. You have to click to see the price. BTW, I watched an auction on Ebay and one went for $180!


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey Guys, since it's been over two months since anyone posted here, I thought I'd share a new project. I have just received my new box-o-parts to build a TMWW 3-way floorstander for 2-channel. These will use the Dayton RS drivers. I also posted this over in the main diy speaker forum.


----------



## Johnla

I hope to get started on the Marsh design WMTW sometime soon, I may even spring for the HiVi 6.8's instead of the RS180, and try to sell some of the RS180's that I have stockpiled to help cover their higher price.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Johnla,

What center channel speaker are you using now? These sealed floorstanders will be the first 3-ways I've built since the Audax CC. These will be for 2-channel only, not the HT.


----------



## Johnla

Right now I'm using the Marsh design MTM's with the Seas tweeters for the fronts L/C/R, http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11321 


And the Modula MT's also with Seas tweeters, for the rears in a 5.1 setup. http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13154 


But for dedicated two channel use which I have in another room, I still use my Klipsch LaScala's. Along with a old Carver C-4000 preamp and a Carver M 1.5t power amp. And I don't foresee changing any of the two channel stuff for awhile though. About the only way I would, is if somebody came out of the blue and gave me a real good offer on the LaScala's. I am shocked to see what the MSRP is on them now, when compared to what I bought them for about 20 years ago. MSRP for them now is around $2500-$2800 each for new a-stock, and about $1600 for b-stock/irregulars. I had to special order them at the time back around in 1979, and paid $612 each for them new. What I paid back then for a new pair, would not even cover the cost just one now.


Actually the LaScala's are the perfect movie theater type speakers, seeing as how they are actually still used in many real theaters.... But for H/T use by most people there is one 'minor' problem with using them that way, and that is they are huge!! You'd need a really big room, to setup 5 or 7 of them for a 5.1 or 7.1 system.


----------



## Tnilsson

You'd probably be better off on one of the DIY forums, but if I were building my own, I might consider a line array speaker like these: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-70200.html


----------



## Johnla

Just checking in, so that this thread don't die. Anyone making any new sawdust????


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey Johnla,

I haven't been on AVS since May. I started on my TMWW RS towers in May and my straight cut router bit broke. I finally got around to buying a new one and other things came up. Now, they're still sitting in my garage waiting to get the rest of the holes cut. We also bought a new boat in June and my daughter played in a soccer tournament in the UK for two weeks in July. In July, it started hitting 90 degrees on a routine basis and it's just too bloody hot! I'm now waiting until October to resume.


----------



## Vper

I built a set of the Audax Home Theater speakers about 2 years ago. I just love them.


I do have a problem with my reciever driving them though. I have a Pioneer D12 that puts out 100 watts per channel. It has Auto level adjustment.


The problem is the center channel. It's to quiet. I use the auto level adjuster, it sounds loud enough with the sounds for the mic, but the voices in movies are just a little quiet.


If I turn up the volume to where the voices are understandable, the surrounds are really loud.










Sometimes that kicks the overload on the reciever.


I suppose I should get an amp for the center, right?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Definitely sounds like a receiver problem unless the xover is assembled incorrectly. I know that one from experience! I wired the mid xover wrong and couldn't really hear voices very well. I corrected it the next day and all was well. That's been about 5-yrs ago. I use an HK7200 which is a big brute.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I built a set of the Audax Home Theater speakers about 2 years ago. I just love them.
> 
> 
> I do have a problem with my reciever driving them though. I have a Pioneer D12 that puts out 100 watts per channel. It has Auto level adjustment.
> 
> 
> The problem is the center channel. It's to quiet. I use the auto level adjuster, it sounds loud enough with the sounds for the mic, but the voices in movies are just a little quiet.
> 
> 
> If I turn up the volume to where the voices are understandable, the surrounds are really loud.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes that kicks the overload on the reciever.
> 
> 
> I suppose I should get an amp for the center, right?


----------



## Vper

I thought it might be a faulty xover, but I bought the preassembled units.


----------



## SVonhof

Could also be that the room acoustics are not allowing you to hear the voices clearly, so turning the whole thing up is the only option?


Wait, can't you adjust the levels on your own so that the center is louder than the auto-set-up would make it?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Scotty V may be on to something. My HK7200 has a mic built into the remote and it didn't work so well. I bought the $50 SPL meter from Radio Shack to set mine.


----------



## Vper

I'll have to check on that. I never really tried to set them manually.


----------



## Duaner

what ever happened to J.L.? Last I heard he was building some dayton RF series speakers... I was hoping to hear is critique of them against the audax set that he originally built. I might be interested. Maybe.


Duane


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I remember JL saying that also. I think he was building the Natalie P. I have the RS TMWW towers which I started in May. I broke my router bit and then got sidetracked before I got a replacement. Now, it's just too hot and I'll wait until it cools down. I have the cabinets built and I had started cutting the driver holes when I broke the bit. I also still have to cut all the holes in the shelf braces. I guess I could build the xovers inside where it's cool.


----------



## Duaner

oh, i thought he was building the daytons. I know he had posted a few messages on the htguide forum where the dayton rf's are discussed.


Anyways, get em done and bring em up so I can have a listen










later

duane


----------



## Lindahl

Just noticed this thread... suprised it was never moved to the DIY forum. Anyhow, here's my venture into DIY:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=826642


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Duaner, those are based on the Dayton RS series.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Johnla,
> 
> I haven't been on AVS since May. I started on my TMWW RS towers in May and my straight cut router bit broke. I finally got around to buying a new one and other things came up. Now, they're still sitting in my garage waiting to get the rest of the holes cut.



This will be my next project, I have all the drivers. Now I'm basically just waiting for the final design.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...4&page=1&pp=35 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> We also bought a new boat in June and my daughter played in a soccer tournament in the UK for two weeks in July. In July, it started hitting 90 degrees on a routine basis and it's just too bloody hot! I'm now waiting until October to resume.



Yeah, ultrafine MDF dust, and 90+ temps, are a bad mix, add in some humidity and it's even worse. (And I've had a taste of how the humidity can be in Atlanta, after one of the 15 minute rainstorms that always seem hit us every time at Road Atlanta back when I was racing there twice a year) You might as well take advantage of all the summertime fun while you can, and enjoy all the things like that new boat. Plus going to the UK for two weeks had to be kind of a neat deal as well. And sooner than you think, it will be getting cooler out to where making a bunch of MDF dust will be better done at those cooler fall temps. But for people in areas similar to or like Chicago where I am located, we can't wait too long. Because it also means for us, that weather like ice and snow is also hiding just somewhere around the corner as well.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Hey Johnla,

I've also done a lap or two around Rd Atlanta. I recently sold my Lotus, but I was there twice a year for the HSR (Historic Sports Car Racing) events. I also ran a few SCCA Solo events a few years ago.


----------



## rtuimauga

ttt


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rtuimauga* /forum/post/11876653
> 
> 
> ttt



Is this supposed to be a bump to bring it back to life? If so, I like it!


----------



## Johnla

Yo Scott, add some MotoGP stuff to your motorcycle links...


----------



## SVonhof

Johnla, I forgot that was even on there and have not updated it for quite some time now. This year, since the MotoGP races were not on Speed, I kept missing the races and have not seen a single race. They were on NBC or ABC or something?


----------



## Johnla

Yeah, a few MotoGP's were on network TV this year. The USGP at Laguna Seca was one of them, it was broadcast live. Unfortunatly, Nickey Haden had a bunch of bad luck, so he lost his chance for 3 wins in a row. And with 3 races to go, Ducati's Casey Stoner won the championship this year. You can always find when some of the races are on TV for all types, at cyclenews.com. And a few MotoGP's for this season are shown to be still coming up on SpeedTV.

http://www.cyclenews.com/racing/tv02.asp


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnla* /forum/post/11917714
> 
> 
> Yeah, a few MotoGP's were on network TV this year. The USGP at Laguna Seca was one of them, it was broadcast live. Unfortunatly, Nickey Haden had a bunch of bad luck, so he lost his chance for 3 wins in a row. And with 3 races to go, Ducati's Casey Stoner won the championship this year. You can always find when some of the races are on TV for all types, at cyclenews.com. And a few MotoGP's for this season are shown to be still coming up on SpeedTV.
> 
> http://www.cyclenews.com/racing/tv02.asp



Cool, thanks! BTW, I will add both MotoGP and the cyclenews site to my links page within a few days...


Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread....


----------



## rtuimauga




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/11895558
> 
> 
> Is this supposed to be a bump to bring it back to life? If so, I like it!



Yeah. To The Top. It was time to resurrect this awesome thread as I am finally getting ready to build me a set. Any advice from the pioneers?


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rtuimauga* /forum/post/11951054
> 
> 
> Yeah. To The Top. It was time to resurrect this awesome thread as I am finally getting ready to build me a set. Any advice from the pioneers?



Make lots of dust?


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Measure twice, cut once. Also, a plunge router and a table saw are your best friends.


----------



## technimac




Johnla said:


> This will be my next project, I have all the drivers. Now I'm basically just waiting for the final design.
> 
> http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...4&page=1&pp=35
> 
> 
> JohnLa,
> 
> That's interesting, because I'm waiting for the finalized design too. In particular I'm considering making the CC enclosure ~35L to "optimize" the potential of the HiVi's.
> 
> I've been using the Audax center with four Modula MT's for fronts and surrounds.
> 
> But, I've got those HiVi D6.8, VifaD26NC55 and RS52 drivers just sitting there waiting to be "employed". I'm also chompin to make a pair of floor stander TMWW mains with the Vifa, RS52 and a pair of RS180's anchoring the bottom end.
> 
> I'll still use the Modula MT's for surround and rear duties.
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's pretty amazing that this thread is still going.........
> 
> 
> We're getting lotsa rain here recently....another 1" by morning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't mix very well with MDF.


----------



## slo74

Hi! Does anyone have plans for classic 3-way speakers (12" woofer)?Something like:Yamaha ns1000m or something like it?


----------



## Johnla

There are a few 3ways in the partsexpress "projects" area.


How about something in a 15" 3way?

http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...f1/angelf1.cfm 


Here is a 12" 3way, but I don't know if you can still get the drivers.

http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...boys/index.cfm 


Also you may want to look around the htguide forums in the DIY area, lots of 3way designs are mentioned there.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=6 


Also take a look in the diyaudio forums as well.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/forum...php?forumid=22 

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/forumdisplay/f-6.html


----------



## Jeff Hovis

slo74, I don't know if you're still around, but since you're looking for a classic 3-way, I'll post one I like: http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_fi...a/lyramain.htm In the spirit of a classic 3-way, it's also 8homs.

This will also revive the thread!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *slo74* /forum/post/12040686
> 
> 
> Hi! Does anyone have plans for classic 3-way speakers (12" woofer)?Something like:Yamaha ns1000m or something like it?


----------



## discohawk

Does anyone know off-hand of speaker projects (sub-$2000) that have a non-traditional or otherwise interesting look to them? By that I mean not just a plain tower, but something more along the lines of the Totem Wind or an ESL design that makes for a good, aesthetically pleasing conversation piece as well as providing solid sound.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

If I were you, I'd ask that one over at diyaudio.com There are lots of guys building things like that over there.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *discohawk* /forum/post/12611454
> 
> 
> Does anyone know off-hand of speaker projects (sub-$2000) that have a non-traditional or otherwise interesting look to them? By that I mean not just a plain tower, but something more along the lines of the Totem Wind or an ESL design that makes for a good, aesthetically pleasing conversation piece as well as providing solid sound.


----------



## Speedskater

Try

Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Nice suggestion, but I didn't think Linkwitz had any designs that could be built for


----------



## Speedskater




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/12616825
> 
> 
> Nice suggestion, but I didn't think Linkwitz had any designs that could be built for


----------



## BigguyZ

Wow- how long has this thing been going for? I owe this thread for getting me into so much as far as DIY. I mean, the experience and confidence building my speaker set got me interested in Home Improvement DIY, as well as Wood Working. So thanks!


Anyways....


Funny thing is- I built the fronts and surrounds for my Audax set, and I never have gotten to finally getting the Center done- even though I have the parts. The fronts image so well, I don't notice the lack of the center.


But anyways, as I just noted I built the Audax set. I love them, and I really should finally finish the center. However, I'm not happy with the finishing results I got the first time. I veneered the fronts and surrounds with Mahogany, but the stain wasn't as even as it should have been, and the lacquer finish has some runs in it. Now I can try to refinish them, but I don't know how likely it is that I'll be able to take the finish off without damaging the veneer.


I also am thinking of selling the speakers and making an entirely new set. So, if I go that route, I have two questions.

- How much do you think the speakers should go for, if I sell on Ebay or Craigslist?

- What are some options as far as high quality designs that perform as well or better than the Audax set? I'd build another set of the Audax if they were still available....


Thanks!


----------



## Johnla

With lacquer you can always just sand it smooth, and then spray some new lacquer right over the old. It will melt/blend right into the old lacquer with no problem. Now of course, that won't help you much with the uneven stain, but if it's not real bad I would just let that go and fix the runs in the lacquer finish. If the runs are not real bad and you don't sand all the way back down to the bare veneer, you might even be able to smooth it out enough with just some light sanding on the runs with some 400 or 600 grit wet/dry paper, followed by some fine rubbing compound.



As for other DIY options, this is the one I'm going with from the HTGuide forums. It's certainly not cheap to build though, as far as crossover parts costs go. But it also uses the really nice Parts Express pre-built cabinets. I have bought the cabinets already, and unless you are darn near a expert woodworker, it would be hard to make them any better yourself, the fit and finish on them is top notch. And when you factor in their relatively low cost compared to buying a bunch of MDF along with all the all the cutting and gluing, veneering, staining/finishing, they pretty much are a absolute bargan to boot! Of course you could also build your own cabinets to use instead of using the pre-built PE ones, but my guess is that you would not save much if any money at all by doing so. And maybe even up spending more.


http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=27218 

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...4&page=1&pp=35 

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...5&page=1&pp=35


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnla* /forum/post/12908587
> 
> 
> As for other DIY options, this is the one I'm going with from the HTGuide forums. It's certainly not cheap to build though, as far as crossover parts costs go. But it also uses the really nice Parts Express pre-built cabinets. I have bought the cabinets already, and unless you are darn near a expert woodworker, it would be hard to make them any better yourself, the fit and finish on them is top notch. And when you factor in their relatively low cost compared to buying a bunch of MDF along with all the all the cutting and gluing, veneering, staining/finishing, they pretty much are a absolute bargan to boot! Of course you could also build your own cabinets to use instead of using the pre-built PE ones, but my guess is that you would not save much if any money at all by doing so. And maybe even up spending more.



Jon Marsh, one of the guys building those speakers is located about 30 minutes from my house and probably within 10 minutes of where I work. Amazing.


----------



## BigguyZ

John,


How much is the Modula kit?


If one wanted to build their own cabinets, are there dimensions available? I really liked the Audax kit because building my own cabinets made it feel like I was getting more for my money. Also, I liked the ability to customize the look of the cabinets as well.


Thanks!


----------



## Johnla

Just copy the size of the PE cabinets if you want to build your own cabinets. Or you could even make some size changes if you keep the total internal volume the same as the PE ones. You could also change the height or depth or even both, as long as you keep the internal volume the same, but you should try and keep the front baffle width the same. Because if you change the baffle width, then you probably would also need to make some changes in the crossover design to compensate for it.


As far as total costs go for the Modula, I can't say for sure as I don't have all the parts yet. Plus I am still thinking of getting the Hi-Val drivers even though I already have a full set of the Dayton's. Which is why I don't have all the crossover parts yet, as the crossover design is not finalized for a build with the Dayton woofers yet. It is possible that there may be a BOM posted somewhere there that also may have parts pricing.



OK, I went back and checked, there is a BOM for the Hi-Val version build on the first page of the first link I posted. (post # 7)

And like I said, not cheap at $495. Just for the drivers and crossover parts to build one speaker.

And that does not even include the price of the cabinets. Or the cost of MDF and such to build you own.


There are also many other speaker designs there, that are also lower cost to build.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11321


----------



## Jeff Hovis

BigguyZ,

I still use my Audax set and really have no immediate plans to change them. However, they are an older design now. I started on a set of the Dayton RS TMWW speakers last spring. I bought all the parts and the cabinets are almost complete. I got busy with other demands and they are still sitting in my garage, I plan to finish them this spring. They are also posted on HTguide:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=15323 


They are much bigger than the Audax fronts, but you may be looking for something bigger. There is also a matching center channel posted. I'll be using mine for 2-channel


----------



## BigguyZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff Hovis* /forum/post/12923341
> 
> 
> BigguyZ,
> 
> I still use my Audax set and really have no immediate plans to change them. However, they are an older design now. I started on a set of the Dayton RS TMWW speakers last spring. I bought all the parts and the cabinets are almost complete. I got busy with other demands and they are still sitting in my garage, I plan to finish them this spring. They are also posted on HTguide:
> http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=15323
> 
> 
> They are much bigger than the Audax fronts, but you may be looking for something bigger. There is also a matching center channel posted. I'll be using mine for 2-channel




I checked out that thread, noticed our very own Joe L posted in there about the Analine dye...


Anyways, I'm not a big HT guide fan, as it's not very accessible, IMHO. But if I understand everything clearly, these designs are done by the users of the forum and are not a part of a standardized kit like the Audax was? The thing I liked about the Audax kit was that it was designed by a well-known speaker designer and that the kit had well-documented plans. Also, I could order the crossovers pre-built from Madisound...


But, at this point I'm thinking I'll just try to refinish my Audax set. Are the Modulas good for music? MAybe I'll make a set of those as a second pair, or make 'em and sell'em for fun. Or sell my Audax set after I build the Modulas. but either way, the Audax's are staying for now.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Z,

Nothing wrong with refreshing the Audax speakers. Like I said, I still use mine and don't have any plans to change them. You are correct about the designs at HT Guide being by the members. Like you, I appreciate the fact that Dr DAppolito designed the Audax. There is a lot of guess work when building some of the speakers over at HTG.


----------



## girandolas

Been a long time since I checked back in here. Looks like I waited a little too long as the Audax TM025f1 tweeter is no longer available. Does anyone know if the TM025F7 is a direct substitute? Or has someone designed a different crossover so it can be used. I tried searching with google and this thread but haven't been able to find anything.


Thanks!


Lee


----------



## Johnla

The TM025F9 is the exact same tweeter, as the TM0251 is. Except for the fact that the flange is a different shape. It has a "truncated" flange instead. But unfortunately you probably would have a even harder time finding those. Looking at the specs and output graphs of both the TM025F1 and TM025F7, they electrically look like it might work as a swap, at the worst it may take a bit of tweaking of the crossover parts. But the TM025F7 is quite possibly going sound different even if the crossover needs/and is optimized for it, seeing as how it is a titanium dome tweeter and the TM025F1 is a fabric dome. But it also might be your only good option, as it probably would be a lot easier to make it work and sound good, even if it takes some reworking of the crossover. Compared with trying to find some other brand of tweeter that may or may not match up any better, not to mention you would probably have to rework the crossover even more even if you did find something else in another brand.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *girandolas* /forum/post/13155924
> 
> 
> Been a long time since I checked back in here. Looks like I waited a little too long as the Audax TM025f1 tweeter is no longer available. Does anyone know if the TM025F7 is a direct substitute? Or has someone designed a different crossover so it can be used. I tried searching with google and this thread but haven't been able to find anything.
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Lee



If you are repairing an existing speaker that uses the Audax tweeter, you might try contacting the vendors listed on this page: http://ldsg.snippets.org/vendors/audax.php to see if they have any stock, even though they no longer have them listed on their web-page.


If you are thinking of building the Audax HT Series, I would not advise it "at this time." At the time it was designed and many of us built the series, it was one of the better choices. At that time Audax sold to the DIY market. Since then, they stopped selling drivers to DIY'ers, shut down their US based (english) web-site and have gone on to sales to commercial manufacturers only) As you have found, the drivers are hard to find these days.


If you are thinking of a DIY effort for your theater today, there are better alternatives where the drivers are currently in production and available.


Check out the "Missions Accomplished" sub-forum on htguide.com for some great alternatives. http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39 


Joe L.


----------



## WGubbe

If all else fails you might try Solen.ca. They are in Canada about a 15 min drive from my house. I checked their web site and that tweeter is still listed there. I am sure that they would ship to you.

http://www.solen.ca/v1/ 

[email protected] 


Good luck, regards Bill


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *J. L.* /forum/post/13167556
> 
> 
> If you are thinking of building the Audax HT Series, I would not advise it "at this time." At the time it was designed and many of us built the series, it was one of the better choices. At that time Audax sold to the DIY market. Since then, they stopped selling drivers to DIY'ers, shut down their US based (english) web-site and have gone on to sales to commercial manufacturers only) As you have found, the drivers are hard to find these days.
> 
> 
> If you are thinking of a DIY effort for your theater today, there are better alternatives where the drivers are currently in production and available.
> 
> 
> Check out the "Missions Accomplished" sub-forum on htguide.com for some great alternatives. http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39



I agree, if he already has everything else in place and just needs only the tweeters and crossover parts to compleat them, that then hunting down the tweeters or even getting a alternative for them is probably worthwhile. But if he is starting from scratch with nothing, where he is just getting ready to start buying everything now for a speaker build. Then there are quite a few better options out there now, and with easy to find parts. As mentioned, the htguide forums has plenty of very good designs to choose from and in many different price ranges and sizes. And that if starting from zero, the Audax setup is probably a very bad choice to go with anymore now.


----------



## girandolas




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *J. L.* /forum/post/13167556
> 
> 
> 
> If you are thinking of a DIY effort for your theater today, there are better alternatives where the drivers are currently in production and available.
> 
> 
> Check out the "Missions Accomplished" sub-forum on htguide.com for some great alternatives.
> 
> Joe L.



It looks like the tweeters may indeed be still available through Solen. I'm waiting on their reply. I can get the other drivers and have all the instructions plus the wealth of information in this thread. But if there is a better option around the $600 price point, I'm all ears!


Lee


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *girandolas* /forum/post/13258133
> 
> 
> It looks like the tweeters may indeed be still available through Solen. I'm waiting on their reply. I can get the other drivers and have all the instructions plus the wealth of information in this thread. But if there is a better option around the $600 price point, I'm all ears!
> 
> 
> Lee



I have not priced any DIY effort for a while now, but all are more expensive than just a few years ago because copper prices have gone through the roof.


If you are looking for a wealth of information in a thread, look here: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=15323 


As I said earlier, much better drivers to start with, still in production, better engineering... and a huge community of builders to ask questions of if you ever get through reading their DIY thread. It is so huge there is a synopsis thread pointing to to posts in the main thread








http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22393 


If that set of HT speakers does not suit you, there are many others in the "Missions Accomplished" forum on htguide, and within your budget. You will probably end up spending as much or more for crossover components as you will for the drivers themselves. Reading through the threads will give you a mini education in speaker design. It is a LOT more involved than picking the drivers and using a pre-made crossover IF you want exceptional results. These guys are picky... and we all benefit from their collective knowledge. Many of the drivers are Parts-Express brand, and they are an AVS sponser.... so I suggest you support them.


Whatever speaker design you decide upon, it will probably still be better than 95% of anything you will find in a local Circuit City or Best Buy. In fact, I don't think they have anything even close to the Audax HT class, and it is nowhere near the Dayton RS Series class from what I've read.


Joe L.


----------



## technimac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *girandolas* /forum/post/13155924
> 
> 
> Been a long time since I checked back in here. Looks like I waited a little too long as the Audax TM025f1 tweeter is no longer available. Does anyone know if the TM025F7 is a direct substitute? Or has someone designed a different crossover so it can be used. I tried searching with google and this thread but haven't been able to find anything.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Lee



I used the TMO25F7 in mine (same as WayneJ's on PE's "_Project Showcase_").
http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...htproject.html 

It's a great performer and available at PE for ~$20 each.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=276-154 

One small change is to omit the Capacitor C5 in the MTM mains (which rolls off a high-frequency rise in the TMO25F1 tweeter response to produce an overall flat response), when using the TMO25F7. Everywhere else it can be directly swapped in.


I still don't have Jon Marsh's WMTW center built even though most of the parts are sitting here. What that says is that the Audax center is doing a great job with a quad of Modula MT's on front and surround duty - and I'm waiting for drier, warmer weather to work outside.


Lee, if you've got the rest of the parts for the Audax HT system, go for it!










Here's how mine turned out:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2420


----------



## girandolas

I indeed bought everything from PE and substituted the F7 for F1 tweeter. Cost for all the components and stuffing $660. I bought my projector last week as well. Now it's time to get to work! I can't believe that I lurked on this thread from the beginning and now after all this time, I'm finally going to build them. I did come out the closet for one post about half way through. Thanks for the crossover change info Technimac! Solen only had 1 F1 left, so I had to go with the F7.


Lee


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Good luck to you on the build. Post some pics when you can. Pay close attention to the center channel crossovers. I mis-wired mine at first and had no midrange. I figured it out and am still happy.


----------



## girandolas

Thanks Jeff! I've got 3 kids the ages of 5 and under, so progress will be slow. I plan on laminating cherry verneer plywood to MDF to make the carcasses the correct thickness everywhere. I may use cherry verneered MDF for the sides, back, top and bottom. Got make a trip to local woodmart and decide.


Lee


----------



## technimac

Just noticed that PE's newest flyer has all the Audax speakers needed for the HT project on sale. This includes the TMO25F7 that can be used in place of the TMO25F1. If anyone is interested in starting this or even in picking up a few "spares", this seems like a golden opportunity.










Here's the link:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/flyer8c/015_pe8c.pdf 


Lee, if you just bought a whole bunch of Audax drivers and paid regular price, maybe give PE a call and see if they can do something (like giving you a credit on your account) for you.










Still enjoying my Audax/Modula MT system!

~Bruce


----------



## Jeff Hovis

Is this thread dead? I haven't been on AVS in a couple of months. I have a set of speakers (Dayton RS TMWW towers) I started building in April, 2007 and today, I had to move them in the garage to get to something else. I realized I haven't been on AVS in a while. I swear I'm going to finish them and post pics.


----------



## moonhawk

Not dead, just taking a little nap....


----------



## neumei626

Hi everyone. I know this thread is inactive but I was hoping to get a question answered.


I am pretty sure I will buying a speaker from Rick Craig at Selah audio, and I am torn between driver choices. One one hand, I want the nice detail of the magnesium seas drivers, on the other hand I want the nice warm sound of the revelator sliced paper cones. I've been searching trying to get a grasp of people's general tonal feelings about the seas excel drivers, whether it be warm or cool. I am afraid the magesium will be to analytical, however I've heard that the detail they provide makes the realism factor quite high. I know I like the paper in the revelators as I have a set of sapphire xls.


The other factor is ribbon vs dome. I don't like that some ribbons are fragile and susceptible to pops and such from electronics, as I watch NESN alot and they've always got technical problems with sound that create alot of cracks and pops. I want the "magic" of ribbons but the reliability of domes basically. And I've only got 2 grand to do it.


I basically copied and pasted this from the selah thread but was hoping maybe more people would see it here.


Thanks for your help.


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I know Rick is a respected speaker designer, but I've never heard any of his designs. I know one guy who has posted on this very thread that is also a designer of some really nice speakers and that's Jim Salk. He also uses ribbons and I believe Seas drivers. His site is: http://www.salksound.com/


----------



## SVonhof

I used to have ribbon tweeters and really loved them. Unfortunatly, when I wanted to make a center channel and rears, the tweeters were no longer available, so I went to an aluminum dome instead for all speakers.


I never had a problem with pops or anything from any electronics or electrical issues (the wiring in our condo was not good).


FYI, the ones I had were Matsushita (Panasonic) and they were purchased back in 1993 or 1994. Ended up selling them to a guy online who was making a line-array with them and needed another 20 of them!


----------



## DLK

Something that might interest readers of this thread, concerning TM025F1 tweeter availability:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=203899 


Meniscus webpage appears hammered right now...


-Dan


----------



## Ted White

I never thought this thread would have become the monster it has when I started it way back when...


I've built my LCRs, 4 surrounds and 2 giant subs. Loved it all.


Now looking to build some small 2-ways for the living room, maybe for outside. Anyone seen plans for exterior speakers?


----------



## 1brokebrother

what's even stranger is that the views are very close to the number of replies


----------



## maxwelllove

I'm looking for some speakers to build to accompany my turntables for DJing. Does anyone have suggestions?


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maxwelllove* /forum/post/14355600
> 
> 
> I'm looking for some speakers to build to accompany my turntables for DJing. Does anyone have suggestions?



Yep, these might work well for you. But you would also need to find a suitable replacement for the two discontinued hammer drivers in the first one.
http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...m?project=Blue 


Here is another one, but it also was originaly designed with a driver that is now discontinued.
http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...ct=Smithereens 


However, finding a pro driver that may work in the place of either designs discontinued parts, may be possible if you match specs up and find one that is similar to replace them.


----------



## WGubbe

Hi all,

I finished my Audax HT set a little over 2 years ago. I have enjoyed their quality very much. However, last night I was watching a PVR recording of a Discovery program when I noticed a slight buzz coming from one of my front LR speakers. When I inspected the speakers I noticed that the small dome in the middle of the 6 1/4 inch speakers all four of them had what appears to be dimple on the center dome. It looks as if someone had poked them their finger but that is impossible here. To my old ear they still sound OK and the slight buzz never came back.


Has anyone else experienced such a problem? What could possibly cause this. I never drive them real hard and all the other speakers are normal.


Can anyone help?


Sorry for the long post. Regards, Bill


----------



## Jeff Hovis

I experienced that with the mid speaker on my CC. We moved to a new house in 2004 and I noticed that there was a buzzing/rattling in some of the dialog. Our speakers are behind a screen wall but I was at least alert enough to install an easy access door to get back there. The cone of that mid driver was actually cracked. I had also bought a couple of extra drivers for spares and made the swap. I haven't had any trouble since but I know these can't last forever. I was very careful moving those speakers but assumed I or someone else had caused the damage...but maybe I didn't.


----------



## WGubbe

Thanks for the reply Jeff. Based on your reply I guess we were just unlucky. IMHO to have four speakers fail at once is an incredible coincidence but I guess it can happen. I will look into replacing them but they still sound OK and there is no more buzzing. Thanks again.


regards Bill


----------



## Drew Eckhardt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maxwelllove* /forum/post/14355600
> 
> 
> I'm looking for some speakers to build to accompany my turntables for DJing. Does anyone have suggestions?



Earl Geddes Nathan or Abbey.


Compression driver, oblate spheroidal wave guide with Earl's pattented foam plug, 10 or 12" pro-sound woofer, sealed so it's easy to integrate with sub-woofers. The wave guide polar response matches the woofer at the cross-over point. Baffles are cut with a 1" round over for diffraction.


Good for 120+ dB average.


----------



## facesnorth

I remember reading on the first page of this thread that a poster said unless you are doing it for fun, you can't compete with some of the bang for buck speaker companies in quality for the money you put into parts alone on DIY projects. Is this still viewed as a general truth? It is mostly for fun? Or can you actually produce speakers that blow away the bang for buck brands like Salk, Totem, Swan, and ID brands?


----------



## SVonhof




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *facesnorth* /forum/post/14693558
> 
> 
> I remember reading on the first page of this thread that a poster said unless you are doing it for fun, you can't compete with some of the bang for buck speaker companies in quality for the money you put into parts alone on DIY projects. Is this still viewed as a general truth? It is mostly for fun? Or can you actually produce speakers that blow away the bang for buck brands like Salk, Totem, Swan, and ID brands?



Totem and Swan are considered "Bang for buck" brands? I would say bang for lots o-bucks. Once you start getting into the Revel, Wilson range, I don't know if you can really justify the sound based on price issue and I think Totem is near there as well, aren't they? I get more satisfaction from using lower-end products and getting great results through acoustics in the room than spending as much as a car on a pair of speakers. But that's just me.


----------



## facesnorth




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/14693666
> 
> 
> Totem and Swan are considered "Bang for buck" brands? I would say bang for lots o-bucks. Once you start getting into the Revel, Wilson range, I don't know if you can really justify the sound based on price issue and I think Totem is near there as well, aren't they? I get more satisfaction from using lower-end products and getting great results through acoustics in the room than spending as much as a car on a pair of speakers. But that's just me.



I may have picked the wrong brands... they are out of my league as well.


So let's say ID brands, and other reasonably priced ones like Quad hifi.


Same question as above.


Let's take the room out of the picture for this question & say in both cases you work on room treatments, EQ, etc, to maximize the sound you get from the speakers.


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *facesnorth* /forum/post/14699617
> 
> 
> I may have picked the wrong brands... they are out of my league as well.
> 
> 
> So let's say ID brands, and other reasonably priced ones like Quad hifi.
> 
> 
> Same question as above.
> 
> 
> Let's take the room out of the picture for this question & say in both cases you work on room treatments, EQ, etc, to maximize the sound you get from the speakers.



In general, not counting your own time spent in labor, a properly engineered DIY speaker will be equivalent in sound quality to one costing two or three times as much.


If you pay yourself for the time spent in construction, you will spend more for DIY, as you cannot pay yourself a low enough wage to compete with an assembly line.


If you enjoy woodworking, and are handy with tools, then DIY might be for you. If you are not as handy, you might consider a "kit" with parts precut and ready to be assembled.


Unless you are ready for a crash course in engineering and acoustics, I suggest you consider a well-respected design done by somebody with lots of experience. (try the "missions accomplished" forum on htguide.com for many good designs) Do not purchase a "pre-built" off-the-shelf crossover. Any crossover must be designed for the specific drivers, enclosure size and volume, driver spacing, and relative efficiencies of the drivers.


Don't be surprised if the crossover components cost nearly as much as the drivers. A crossover will make or break a speaker.


With DIY you must consider the experience and tools used by the designer. If they show on and off axis frequency responses, and the response is reasonably flat, then you will probably be OK.


Joe L.


----------



## SVonhof

Well put Joe.


I would second everything Joe said. And add that DIY speakers is something that can take a whole lot of time, so make sure you have that time to spend as nothing should be done quickly as that's when mistakes are made. If you have more money than time, buy some speakers.


----------



## facesnorth




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SVonhof* /forum/post/14700621
> 
> 
> If you have more money than time, buy some speakers.



How about neither?

















That was a good response though, Joe, thanks for the insight. Sounds like I will be sticking with my Quad hi-fi 7.1 system for the time being. In the future I'll probably push towards saving for one of the brands I mentioned in my post above. I'm not super handy. If I was though, it sounds like a great direction to take the hobby.


----------



## sac8d4

I dont think anyone has mentioned Occam audio http://www.occamaudio.com/ and even the Gini LS3/A at http://www.gini.com/


----------



## limulus

Hello Everyone, I'm going to be retiring my Audax LCR that I built in 2002 and replace them with RS TMWW towers and a Clearwave 4CC. I'm going to keep the LCR and the surrounds, but I do have two brand new AO170ZO woofs, 1 AP130ZO mid, two TMO25F1 tweets, components for one unassembled surround xover, one surround cabinet with xover in plain MDF never used.


----------



## moonhawk

I have finally finished my 9 speakers from North Creek Music, along with matching TV stand. Thought I'd share a few pics, if only to help keep this thread alive.


----------



## moonhawk

A couple more, showing the CC and stand a little closer, and a head-on shot in a final config.

These guys are sounding really, really, good, but after 5 years of dragging this project out, I'm really, really, glad to be done.










The sides are all pre-veneered Cherry ply, the end caps are solid Cherry, and the fascia are all hard white Maple, which was really tough to rout the 1" radiii on without tearing out big chunks. They came out pretty nice with a few minor blems.


But like I said, they sound great, so who cares?


----------



## limulus

moonhawk, those are beautiful! They really look good in the room and I'll bet they sound great.

jh


----------



## moonhawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *limulus* /forum/post/15944077
> 
> 
> moonhawk, those are beautiful! They really look good in the room and I'll bet they sound great.
> 
> jh



Thanks, Jeff--those are Scan Speak D9900 revelator tweeters and 15S/8305K mids.


George short hand matches all components to very close tolerances. I built the surrounds and subs first, which have a little bit lesser components, and then the center, then the mains.


It is remarkable how much alike the high end front soundstage sounds like the surrounds, which I used as mains for a long time. Only much more detailed, with better slam and dynamics. But George voices all his speakers to sound the same, and he has done a great job here.


Thanks to all on this very long thread--It was a great inspiration to me to keep "Making sawdust"


May all your projects bring you much joy...


----------



## johnathanwinter

Moonhawk, thats a great set of speakers you have there, and also a very nice house. im loving the ceiling. great taste in gear also. I wouldnt say im jealous but im doing a little coveting right now. LOL


hope you enjoy it all for many years.


----------



## moonhawk

I thank you, sir.


----------



## limulus

Hello Guys,

Wow, this thread was so old, I had to check a box to acknowledge that it is an old thread. Is that a subtle way of saying it is now useless and obsolete?


I'm wondering if anyone is still using their Audax speakers. Mine front three are still in use. I power them with an Emotiva XPA3. My four rear speakers were retired and two were never even used. I had to get dipoles that fit into the columns. Mine are now around 7yrs old.

jh


----------



## DLK

I still have the parts to build the front array. Maybe next year....


----------



## WGubbe

Still using all five of them. There may be better out there but for me they are still OK.Bill


----------



## J. L.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WGubbe* /forum/post/17628566
> 
> 
> Still using all five of them. There may be better out there but for me they are still OK.Bill



I'm still using all 5 of mine also...


Joe L.


----------



## Johnla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *limulus* /forum/post/17627768
> 
> 
> Hello Guys,
> 
> Wow, this thread was so old, I had to check a box to acknowledge that it is an old thread. Is that a subtle way of saying it is now useless and obsolete?



I would not say it's useless, granted finding all the parts to build a set now could be hard, due to Audax discontinuing many of the drivers, and also because of their decision to more or less get out of selling raw drivers to the DIY crowd. The age of the speaker design really means nothing, the fact is, it's still a very good speaker system. And it's very possible that someone could still want to build a set, and if they looked around enough, maybe even still find all the parts that are needed somewhere.


----------



## DLK

I blame Harman International for what happened to Audax. I've built the Dickason A651 and A652 designs in the past and been very pleased with those Audax designs. I figured that Audax drivers plus Mr. D'Appolito's design expertise would produce a winner. I regret that my life has not permitted me to take any speaker-building time for several years now (that's changing soon, however).


It now looks like they're going to shut down Studer (Switzerland), screwing Regensdorf in the process.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...2908746&ref=mf .

I tend to get a little irrational about this sort of thing (sort of like boycotting Sony since the Oct-2005 rootkit thing surfaced), so I'll not darken my life with more products from Harman subsidiaries.


Anyway, thanks for the great thread - Dan


----------



## Duaner

Wow, I had pretty much forgotten about this thread... and about how much time and effort I put into my Audax front soundstage. That was a while ago... must have been 5 years ago now? Time really flies. The speakers still sound terrific, and we enjoy them frequently. These days, with kids, it's mostly Kung-Fu Panda, Ratatouille, Cars, etc. Good stuff. Glad I went with this DIY design.


cheers


----------



## limulus

Lucky for me I have some spare tweeters, mids and woofs for these speakers! I had thought about building the huge clearwave 4cc ( http://www.clearwaveloudspeaker.com/Dynamic/4CC.html ) but, I think I'll just keep the Audax.


BTW Duaner, I still love your signature. That's the best of the two more recent (if they can be called recent) Earp movies.

Jeff


----------



## GeorgeHolland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonhawk* /forum/post/15943950
> 
> 
> A couple more, showing the CC and stand a little closer, and a head-on shot in a final config.
> 
> These guys are sounding really, really, good, but after 5 years of dragging this project out, I'm really, really, glad to be done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sides are all pre-veneered Cherry ply, the end caps are solid Cherry, and the fascia are all hard white Maple, which was really tough to rout the 1" radiii on without tearing out big chunks. They came out pretty nice with a few minor blems.
> 
> 
> But like I said, they sound great, so who cares?



Moonhawk, congratulations, they look great and I'm sure they sound great too.


Other than the sub, my Northcreek 5.1 system was built in the reverse order. My Vision Signature mains are noted on the first page of this thread back in 2002. I then built the center and finally finished the rears in March 2009. Since then I've built a 2nd Sub so I have the 18 Leviathan for the LFE and a 12 2 cubic foot sealed Aurasound NS12-7094-4A handling under 80 hz for the mains.


Some pics are in the thread linked to below.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...202&highlight=


----------



## moonhawk

Thanks George. Checked out your thread. They look really, really, nice.


And I know how good they sound.


----------



## mikaljones




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ted White* /forum/post/1354490
> 
> 
> Looking for plans for very high quality theater speakers. I'm not into design software, but rather looking for some plans that have been proven winners.
> 
> 
> Anyone?
> 
> 
> Ted



Try these: Digital Audio Speakers and Speaker Plans. These are some pretty incredible designs. Very large. And heavy by the descriptions.




Or these: Mini Cube Speakers 


Seems like a decent site with some interesting plans. They don't have much selection though but I think the small speaker plans are actually free. Probably only good for a HTiB replacement or computer speakers though.


----------



## Doug Fraser

You might want to check out the following:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39 


I have built the NeoD CC's - they walk all over my 1991 vintage B&W 802's


Here is my build thread:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=34556 


Many people are building the Statements for their Home Theater.


Also look here:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/ 


John has excellent designs.


Regards,

Doug


----------



## PhilipeBR

they are very beautiful!


----------



## limulus

mikal and Doug,

You guys may not have noticed this thread is 8 yrs old. This thread also started before there was a diy speaker forum. I am pretty sure that Ted designed and build line arrays for his LCR speakers years ago. The thread eventually turned into an Audax HT build thread. I built a set still enjoy mine to this day. The only problem is Audax basically quit selling those drivers to the diy market.


I started on a set of Dayton RS TMWW towers three years ago. I built the cabinets and then burned out on speaker building before I built the crossovers. All the drivers are still in there boxes. I suppose I need to finish them.


----------



## mikaljones

I've used these resources in the past. All seem pretty good. I don't think I saw all of them mentioned here so they might add to what everyone else has already said.

Digital Audio Speakers Page 

Madisound 


And Speaker Building.com which may have already been mentioned.


----------



## Ericglo

Doug,

Nice Build! I seem to recall that the Neos cost in around $500 a pop. That is not bad considering the performance they bring. I wonder if Jon will ever get around to updating these with new tweeters.


----------



## Barrettn

*Detailed Audax plans?*

Hard to believe, but after divorce and dozens of other reasons, I'm finally getting around to building the Audax home theater speakers I bought years and years ago. I can't find the detailed plans anywhere, can anyone tell me where I can find them? I'm hoping someone has them archived somewhere, they show a cutaway view and dimensions, they look like they were laid out with a CAD package - you can see a picture of one of them (blurry and not really usable) at (ok, I just discovered I can't post URLs due to not having posted enough, but google hometheaterforum audax and imgrepo, the first link will take you to an old ad of someone selling their kit, the first of the documents shown is what I'm looking for.

I can find the plans Matt Peacock put together but I'm hoping to find the detailed plans as well - they show the placement of the vents and if the driver mounting is flush or recessed, something the "not detailed" plans doesn't show. 

I hope someone can dig them up for me, I'm making the enclosure now with the help of a friend 
Thanks!



Matt Peacock said:


> Ohh this thread is still active, fantastic.
> 
> J.L. would you mind if I picked your brains about the Audax kit from time to time?
> 
> I have created a PDF of the Audax webpages concerning the DIY Home Theatre Kit, I basically copied and pasted into Word, but I've preserved all formatting and images (removed navigation etc). I hope at least a few people find it useful, it took quite a while to produce.
> 
> Matt (long time lurker short time poster)


----------



## Barrettn

Barrettn said:


> Hard to believe, but after divorce and dozens of other reasons, I'm finally getting around to building the Audax home theater speakers I bought years and years ago. I can't find the detailed plans anywhere, can anyone tell me where I can find them? I'm hoping someone has them archived somewhere, they show a cutaway view and dimensions, they look like they were laid out with a CAD package - you can see a picture of one of them (blurry and not really usable) at (ok, I just discovered I can't post URLs due to not having posted enough, but google hometheaterforum audax and imgrepo, the first link will take you to an old ad of someone selling their kit, the first of the documents shown is what I'm looking for.
> 
> I can find the plans Matt Peacock put together but I'm hoping to find the detailed plans as well - they show the placement of the vents and if the driver mounting is flush or recessed, something the "not detailed" plans doesn't show.
> 
> I hope someone can dig them up for me, I'm making the enclosure now with the help of a friend
> Thanks!


Ha! I can include the image itself! These are the plans I'm looking for 

Barrett


----------



## DLK

Barrettn said:


> Hard to believe, but after divorce and dozens of other reasons, I'm finally getting around to building the Audax home theater speakers I bought years and years ago. I can't find the detailed plans anywhere, can anyone tell me where I can find them? I'm hoping someone has them archived somewhere, they show a cutaway view and dimensions, they look like they were laid out with a CAD package - you can see a picture of one of them (blurry and not really usable) at (ok, I just discovered I can't post URLs due to not having posted enough, but google hometheaterforum audax and imgrepo, the first link will take you to an old ad of someone selling their kit, the first of the documents shown is what I'm looking for.
> 
> I can find the plans Matt Peacock put together but I'm hoping to find the detailed plans as well - they show the placement of the vents and if the driver mounting is flush or recessed, something the "not detailed" plans doesn't show.
> 
> I hope someone can dig them up for me, I'm making the enclosure now with the help of a friend
> Thanks!


Are you referring to the Joe d'Appolito-designed system? See if this works...

http://www.waterloowi.us/comm/forms/audax diy home theatre.pdf

HTH-
Dan


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## Barrettn

Barrettn said:


> Ha! I can include the image itself! These are the plans I'm looking for
> 
> Barrett


And being a newbie I can't PM Matt Peacock or J.L. from the original thread to ping either of them directly, so who knows if they'll see this after 80+ pages - if someone would take pity on me and fire them off a PM on my behalf I'd be in your debt!


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## Barrettn

DLK said:


> Are you referring to the Joe d'Appolito-designed system? See if this works...
> 
> (url removed to get around 5 post minimum to post URLs)
> 
> HTH-
> Dan


Thanks Dan, but those are the plans I already have - If you look at the image I attached you'll see the detailed plans - they're, well - more detailed!


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## Matt Peacock

Barrettn said:


> And being a newbie I can't PM Matt Peacock or J.L. from the original thread to ping either of them directly, so who knows if they'll see this after 80+ pages - if someone would take pity on me and fire them off a PM on my behalf I'd be in your debt!


No worries, that's what email notifications are for.

I'll have a look tonight and see if I can find what you're looking for. In the meantime - yes the drivers are flush mounted. I found the easiest way to do this was to create a jig out of scrap MDF and screw that jig to the bottom of your router. First drill into the MDF holes for the jig and the drivers. Second cut the wider circle (but only part-way down through the MDF). Third cut the smaller circle (all the way through). Then you'll have the 'step' which the drivers sit on, ready with holes to bolt them with. If you cut a hole first, and then try to cut the step and/or drill the holes, it's harder as the router will want to fall into the hole and you have less material to support yourself on when drilling.

Once this is done I flipped the MDF over and using a rounding bit to round off the inside. Not sure if it really makes a difference, but people seemed to think sharp edges and sound waves were a no go.

Matt


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## Matt Peacock

OK, here they are.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8owgbsd1a1mbwg6/audaxfro.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/av313s8czapc7gr/audaxrea.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xtz0x7m3wiy4715/audaxcen.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ifaqnmhbe32kh9/audaxsub.pdf?dl=0

It would be great if you could post update photos.

Matt


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## limulus

I was surprised to get a notice that there were replies to this thread after so long. I'm one of the early builders of these speakers and I still have mine to this day. I also have several sets of extra drivers packed away in case I ever blew one. I am out of town until tomorrow night, but if I remember, I'll look for the plans. I used to post under my real name (JH) but changed that several years ago.


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## Barrettn

Matt Peacock said:


> OK, here they are.
> 
> (URLs removed to allow newbie posting  )
> It would be great if you could post update photos.
> 
> Matt



Thanks so much, exactly what I was looking for - unfortunately the plans confirm another question I have: why in the plans is only the AP130Z0 recessed, given that every build I've seen has all the drivers mounted flush with the front face? Is there a "right" way to do it?

Barrett


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## Barrettn

BTW, I have a Jasper circle jig I bought for my router, so I'm set for recessing them.


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## DLK

Barrettn said:


> Thanks so much, exactly what I was looking for - unfortunately the plans confirm another question I have: why in the plans is only the AP130Z0 recessed, given that every build I've seen has all the drivers mounted flush with the front face? Is there a "right" way to do it?


I suspect that it concerns time alignment between the mid and tweeter, where the wavelengths are shorter. It will change the on-axis response in the mid-tweeter crossover region.


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## limulus

Barrettn said:


> BTW, I have a Jasper circle jig I bought for my router, so I'm set for recessing them.


The Jasper circle Jig is a great tool! I also made a large jig from a piece of the flat steel (photo below) from Home Depot to make a big jig. Even though this design is now old and the drivers are not sold to the public by Audax, they are still great sounding speakers. My HT is acoustically treated and these still impress me.


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## Duaner

wow.. time flies. When I built my Audax system, my oldest daughter was in diapers, and our second daughter didn't even exist yet. Our oldest is 11 now... Neat to see people still interested in this thread. We've had a lot of years of enjoyment out of these speakers, and probably lots more to come. Still love them

-cheers


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## limulus

Duaner said:


> wow.. time flies. When I built my Audax system, my oldest daughter was in diapers, and our second daughter didn't even exist yet. Our oldest is 11 now... Neat to see people still interested in this thread. We've had a lot of years of enjoyment out of these speakers, and probably lots more to come. Still love them
> 
> -cheers


Now that puts it into perspective. My first post here was #57 (I've since changed my user name) on Dec 1, 2002. My oldest daughter was 9 and my youngest was a month short of 6. The oldest is now in grad school and the youngest is a university freshman. They've both left the next, but I still have my speakers...oh yeah, my wife is still around too.


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## Matt Peacock

Barrettn said:


> Thanks so much, exactly what I was looking for - unfortunately the plans confirm another question I have: why in the plans is only the AP130Z0 recessed, given that every build I've seen has all the drivers mounted flush with the front face? Is there a "right" way to do it?
> 
> Barrett


I didn't see this at the time - sorry. I recessed them, for two reasons: 1. It looks better IMO and 2. There was a school of thought that said you wanted to keep the plane in front of any driver, as flat as possible for the best sound. This was also why people were rounding the edges of the cabinets, to smooth the sound. No idea if it makes a difference or not, but there you go.

Matt


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## Duaner

Sitting here something like 16 years after building the Audax set... listening to HD streaming audio through them... and thinking about what a great investment in time and money this build was. 

Also wondering if anyone is still out there who was part of this thread in the early 2000’s? 

Life has changed a good bit since I put these to work... our oldest is now a junior in high school. Time flies for sure. These speakers have certainly stood the test of time, though I’m currently on the lookout for some spare tweeters, as my center channel has one that’s partly blown. I’ve not been able to find these for purchase here in the states, except for a couple on eBay that I’ve passed up. And nothing else appears to available that’s really close in specs. 

Anyways... thought I’d bump the old thread... 

Cheers


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## MrBobb

20 years later, we have youTUBE now and this channel seems interesting with some off-beat builts:

SoundBlab


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## AVWERKS

GR research


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## limulus

Duaner said:


> Sitting here something like 16 years after building the Audax set... listening to HD streaming audio through them... and thinking about what a great investment in time and money this build was.
> 
> Also wondering if anyone is still out there who was part of this thread in the early 2000’s?
> 
> Life has changed a good bit since I put these to work... our oldest is now a junior in high school. Time flies for sure. These speakers have certainly stood the test of time, though I’m currently on the lookout for some spare tweeters, as my center channel has one that’s partly blown. I’ve not been able to find these for purchase here in the states, except for a couple on eBay that I’ve passed up. And nothing else appears to available that’s really close in specs.
> 
> Anyways... thought I’d bump the old thread...
> 
> Cheers


I’m still running the L/C/R all these years later. We moved two years ago and with the house went the big HT. No more projector but we do have a 75” TV


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