# Crestron Prices



## Awake

I am looking into getting a crestron system to automate lighting/shades/distributed audio/etc and I'm wondering where people go to get the best prices on the hardware. I could buy it from a system integrator company but I suspect they will take my first two children. I'm wondering if it is cheaper to get it from someone else and hire an experienced programmer (which seem to be around) to put it all together.


Do discount dealers exist? Typically, how much does pricing vary?


----------



## Awake

I'm happy to let someone make a profit on me. However, I also believe in a reasonable profit and I'm not convinced that the typical system integrators do that. Typically, reasonable competition in a market will let people make profits but not outrageous ones.


I suspect I can find a designer who will take a project at a fixed fee or hourly rate. That still allows them a reasonable profit.


I can afford it the system. I simply resent feeling exploited. If I'm paying folks hourly fees to install things, hourly fees to program things, and hourly fees to design the system, I really don't feel I owe them huge margins on the hardware.


A modest one yes but the evidence I've seen suggests most integrators have very high margins on crestron hardware. Many of the people who deal in these items are also dealers of AV equipment. I had one quote for a $10K projector which has a street price of $5.7K.


Thats not a reasonable profit. That is an outrageous margin and I believe somewhat a representative of how these people operate.


Just like you try and get the good prices on a car or home rennovations. I try and get good prices on my electronics. In all cases, you also pay attention to support, reliability, quality, etc. But starting with the assumption that the system integrator somehow deserve the MSRP is a bit absurd to me.


----------



## SAAudio




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I had one quote for a $10K projector which has a street price of $5.7K.
> 
> 
> Thats not a reasonable profit. That is an outrageous margin and I believe somewhat a representative of how these people operate.
> 
> 
> But starting with the assumption that the system integrator somehow deserve the MSRP is a bit absurd to me.



Most good custom installers will start to with MSRP or close. You are not only paying for the product when you buy an item, you are paying them for their knowledge in selecting the right product for your needs.


Is it the CI's fault some dealer puts their stuff online and sells it for cost plus 5% if that. I can't even afford to come to your house and look at the application on those margins.


QQQ is right, this approach with Crestron will almost certainly end in a big mess and probably cost more in the long run. Crestron customers don't price shop, at least not most of them. They look for the CI they like the most and go with them. They don't have time to research, design, and implement a system.


You will most likely have lots of trouble finding all the pieces you need to complete the system for a discount seller.


Check out CQC.


----------



## Mattman

This debate has been had on these forums many times and I know better than to jump in but . . .


Don't confuse street price with a fair price. Each individual business has the right and responsibility to determine what type of margins they must maintain in order to maintain and hopefully grow their business. Internet vendors can operate at much lower margins due to their extremely low overhead. A local dealer can't count the margin they make on hardware as "profit." They have other things to pay for with that money like the shop where you have an opportunity to demo the products that you're interested in, insurance, employee salaries, demo inventory and on and on.


What you're suggesting (buy my stuff at "street" and have the installer just put it in for you) is the equivalent of going to Sam's Club to buy ingedients for dinner and expecting the local four star restaurant to cook it up for you. They would laugh you out of the restaurant and go ahead and seat the next guest that isn't carrying in their own groceries.


This post is NOT meant to be a slam. I just think that sometimes people have an unrealistic idea of what type of margins should be considered "fair". If you want to talk about high margins, ask the local Pizza Hut manager what their food cost is on that pizza you ordered!


I've had this same type of discussion with hourly employees. "We charge $85 an hour for labor but you pay me $20. You're making $65 an hour profit on me!!! I want a raise!" When we opened the books and showed them the operating expenses involved with running a responsive and stable custom installation business, they changed their tune.


Crestron (as well as most other automation products) is highly dealer dependent. The dealer makes an enormous commitment in time and money to become proficient in designing and implementing these systems. Creston is a very powerful system, but the key to it's successful implementation is the dealer.


Everyone wants to save money, but don't be penny wise and pound foolish. I have worked with many clients over the years that tried to do things as inexpensively as possible and ended up spending twice as much as if they had just hired an expert in the first place.


----------



## Mr. Integration

With all due respect to OP, overhead and labor cost and ongoing service are what drive up costs. When we do a job at cost plus, we then need to charge for actual labor hours. You are much better off getting a bid price all inclusive.


As far as "outrageous markups" it is always cheaper to buy a filet from the supermarket that going to Morton's or Ruths Chris, but no one seems to complain that they are selling 15 Dollar steaks for 50 Dollars. The "street price" is what someone who has no great people to install or calibrate is charging you for moving a box. Integrators do so much more, hence they cost so much more. You will find the good ones are in it for the love of technology not cash. Typically they "take home" 5-7 percent of what you spend not exactly gouging.


If you get cost plus expect 25% plus actual labor hours with no cap.


Just my .02


----------



## penngray

hehe......this will be an interesting thread.


When I got the quote for my home last year. What blew me away was hardware costs like 5-8K touchscreens. Not everything was extreme but it seems some items were grossly over priced.


I still dont know why good Home Automation doesnt cost under $20,000 considering all equipment I needed was I think under $15K but I have been told on here by the CIs that it just is that way










I ended up building my own system. Its not for everyone, it has to be a hobby because it does consume time. Its been awesome learning everything.


----------



## penngray

btw, CQC does have CIs so you dont need to do it yourself.


You can then source all components (You will know the true costs) and let someone else make them all work together and give you an interface.


Costs for this I have to believe is substantially less then a Crestron solution.


----------



## Awake

This forum seems to be populated by people who make there money doing this stuff so I guess I see why you don't like my views. This is interesting



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SAAudio* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Most good custom installers will start to with MSRP or close. You are not only paying for the product when you buy an item, you are paying them for their knowledge in selecting the right product for your needs.
> 
> 
> QQQ is right, this approach with Crestron will almost certainly end in a big mess and probably cost more in the long run. Crestron customers don't price shop, at least not most of them. They look for the CI they like the most and go with them. They don't have time to research, design, and implement a system.



Somehow, the fact that I buy a $20k projector rather than a $10k projector entitles the SI to earn twice as much? It doesn't take twice as much work. I guess I'm not a typical Crestron customer. I'm quite analytic and believe in getting value for my money and doing a lot of research.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mattman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What you're suggesting (buy my stuff at "street" and have the installer just put it in for you) is the equivalent of going to Sam's Club to buy ingedients for dinner and expecting the local four star restaurant to cook it up for you. They would laugh you out of the restaurant and go ahead and seat the next guest that isn't carrying in their own groceries.
> 
> 
> Everyone wants to save money, but don't be penny wise and pound foolish. I have worked with many clients over the years that tried to do things as inexpensively as possible and ended up spending twice as much as if they had just hired an expert in the first place.



A good and reasonable reply. I'm not sure I agree with the analogy although I will tell you that there are parts of the world where that is essentially the model you follow. Go buy your fish and bring it to the chef down the street to cook so it isn't as outrageous as you think. In your analogy, I can go buy the ingriendents and find a less skilled chef. However, that seems hard with Crestron. The ingridients cost me the same regardless of the chef.


I'm actually not excited about any kind of DIY setup or finding another mechanism but I'm building a fairly large setup (fully wiring a 4BR apt with lots of windows) that the savings is potentially substantial. If it is large enough, it justifies more risk and a bit more headache on my part.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I got the quote for my home last year. What blew me away was hardware costs like 5-8K touchscreens. Not everything was extreme but it seems some items were grossly over priced.



It is expensive and Crestron puts a lot of money into development efforts. What bothers me is if I buy a touchscreen that costs $8k rathern the $4k, the SI gets twice as much profit although the work is largely the same (and the difference is covered by hourly wage).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mr. Integration* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With all due respect to OP, overhead and labor cost and ongoing service are what drive up costs. When we do a job at cost plus, we then need to charge for actual labor hours. You are much better off getting a bid price all inclusive.



So normally you do not charge for hours? The proposal I have right now is MSRP + hours. To my mind, it makes sense to charge one way and not the other.



Just like any skilled professional gets compensated for their time. I like to think of SI's as skilled professionals and they should be compensated for their time. The fact that they also try and behave like car salesman and get more money because you want a fancier product makes me uncomfortable and seems a bit deceptive. I would much prefer someone charge me cost and I pay a decent hourly wage. I don't expect speakers or a projector or an extra two rooms of audio is going to take them twice as much effort so I don't see why I should double the amount of money I give them.


But I think we are going in circles...


----------



## audiblesolutions




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm happy to let someone make a profit on me. However, I also believe in a reasonable profit and I'm not convinced that the typical system integrators do that. Typically, reasonable competition in a market will let people make profits but not outrageous ones.



This has been covered quite a bit. The issues are many and are not only based upon hardware costs. Integration is a funny business. You have a lot of responsibility and yet almost no control. " My Crestron system is broken.." may begin the complaint but the cause may be low cable TV signal that causes the cable box to pixelate. It may be a defective piece of equipment. Perhaps your hard drive failed and when you press the button it no longer plays music. Or the program could be corrupted. Or you may have found a bug in my code that no one else ever has. Or you may have found a way to use the system for which I failed to code.


I am in the process of coding 4 large jobs. I am working 15-18 hours a day. I have to draw screens, code the GUI, figure out serial protocols, address devices, I need to figure out why code that worked stopped working. How much am I entitled to make according to your sense that my profit ( and my net profit last year was 9% on a gross profit of 35% ). You have no clue what it takes to make one of these systems work. You see some of the prices quoted and you think, my Lord, these guys are ripping me off. When you discover how much time and knowledge many of us put in you might discover that it is lawyers, wall street investors and born again ministers who are the shysters, not we lowly integrators.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A modest one yes but the evidence I've seen suggests most integrators have very high margins on crestron hardware. Many of the people who deal in these items are also dealers of AV equipment. I had one quote for a $10K projector which has a street price of $5.7K.



I have no clue what this means. I trust it means that the MSRP is 10K but you can find it on the Internet for 5.7k. My initial response might be some 4 letter expletives. Many items I sell can be had on the Internet for less than my cost. How so? People go out of business and their inventory is purchased and resold, is one method. The point, however, is you don't understand and haven't a clue. We sell systems not boxes and you are still looking at everything as if it's a product. When you go into Wolfgang Puck's restaurant you are going to spend more than you might were you to go into McDonald's. The difference is not just the food itself. It is the service, the decor, and the capabilities of the chief. You are not just getting a 10K projector. You are getting a high quality distributed audio video system and I charge MSRP for the products and a service fee to install and program. If you don't like it follow Pengray and do it yourself.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thats not a reasonable profit. That is an outrageous margin and I believe somewhat a representative of how these people operate.



You have no idea what is reasonable. You only have a belief system that says that if I can find product A cheaper then the other guy ought to sell me that product for that price. You don't for a moment consider that a. I might actually know what I am doing. b. I might tweak that product and make it sing ( calibration) c) I might have to have spent time to figure out how to write a driver for it d. I am responsible for more than just that product. If your mill work installer puts a nail or screw into the wire and something fails to work can I still get paid? If there is a problem with RF interference will you still pay me? How about the thief--you don't know who I'm referring but others do--who hired me to install a basic system, had his Nigerian enabler change the specification, agreed to more fees and after he received a working system failed to pay. You sound just like him. He also found a way to pay less while getting a working system that took 7 days to wire, 2 weeks to trim out and 2 weeks to program.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just like you try and get the good prices on a car or home rennovations. I try and get good prices on my electronics. In all cases, you also pay attention to support, reliability, quality, etc. But starting with the assumption that the system integrator somehow deserve the MSRP is a bit absurd to me.



I hear that Control4 is the cat's meow and boy are the prices of the equipment lower than what that Crestron thief tried to pawn off on me. You may wish to look into it. Then there is also Lifeware. I'm told they are in Best Buy. Doesn't Best Buy have "The Geek Squad." They must also be able to do custom integration well too. There is also a fellow who participates here who speaks very highly of MainLobby. I'm told it can do everything Crestron can do and at a fraction of the price.


Some people are candidates for custom integration and others really need to look at Walmart for their solution. It is a personality quirk. You just have no idea how time consuming it can be nor the fact that it is impossible to know how long it will take to finish your job in terms of labor. Ultimately, what matters is my net profit which as you can see above is probably a lot lower than yours especially when you factor in time. I spend a lot of time, even if you discount for inefficient work habits and inventory control and order management, making systems work. The only way you'd have any idea is when I was in your home for 7 straight 17 hour days that did not include the years of driver and GUI creation. Shades don't work and I get the call, not the shade contractor. Lights don't work and I get the call and I have to change the light bulb. Security system does not work and it's my fault that their horrid protocol craps out and spits out garbage that locks up my com port. Since you have no idea about my business model or costs and care only about paying as little as possible not in getting a _system that works_ I don't any of these words will in any way be illuminating.


Alan


----------



## Awake

Some people are so defensive. You guys seem to attack me because I question your margins/business model and want to get a decent bang for my buck.


So lets try a very simple question:


Why do you charge large markup and hour fees? If it takes you 15-20 hours of work to do a task, I pay more hours. Fine by me. If it takes 40, I pay for forty. You do more work, I pay more money. Seems simple and rationale.


So why the markup? Charge higher rates rather than hide it in the markups. Your rate includes salaries, overhead, profit, amortized education costs, etc. More complicated tasks take more time and entail more risk but you bill for more hours.


This is how I interact with lawyers, accountants, and many other professionals. They do what I tell them as long as I pay their rates. My accountant doesn't care who they need to work with to get the job done (Morgan Stanely or stupid idiot bank) -- if it is harder for them, they work longer and charge me more.


----------



## maddogmc

I know I shouldn't but I can't help myself







....


When was the last time you went into a Ferrari or Rolls dealer and negotiated a discount? Would you complain about the $300+ oil change and take it to Walmart the next time?


When comparing Crestron to cars and their salesmen, you need to think Rolls, Ferrari, etc. I don't ever remember seeing a Rolls or Ferrari in the 10 minute oil change place or on Walmart's grease rack.


----------



## Awake

Repeating over and over again that "We are great we deserve a premium" isn't going to make it true or not true. It just sounds a bit self aggrandizing.


If you like the car dealer analogy, I can buy my car at one place because they offer me the best price (and yes, people do price shop for premium vehicles -- not everyone, some people don't care about money until it gets another zero or two) and get it serviced by another (good reputation for service department, near work/home). Might be a premium auto dealer, might be the neighborhood mechanic you have been using for years.


You ignored my question. The only real reason I can see for high markup and hourly rates (rather than simply clear and higher hourly rates) is to obfuscate the issue.


----------



## Mr. Integration




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Some people are so defensive. You guys seem to attack me because I question your margins/business model and want to get a decent bang for my buck.
> 
> 
> So lets try a very simple question:
> 
> 
> Why do you charge large markup and hour fees? If it takes you 15-20 hours of work to do a task, I pay more hours. Fine by me. If it takes 40, I pay for forty. You do more work, I pay more money. Seems simple and rationale.
> 
> 
> So why the markup? Charge higher rates rather than hide it in the markups. Your rate includes salaries, overhead, profit, amortized education costs, etc. More complicated tasks take more time and entail more risk but you bill for more hours.
> 
> 
> This is how I interact with lawyers, accountants, and many other professionals. They do what I tell them as long as I pay their rates. My accountant doesn't care who they need to work with to get the job done (Morgan Stanely or stupid idiot bank) -- if it is harder for them, they work longer and charge me more.




I agree this is how most professionals work except they charge 300 an hour if they are really good. Try putting that on an invoice, besides hourly charges are a bad idea. If I am really good at my job, I generate less revenue, if I am learning or just not too efficient it costs the client more money. It is a lose lose, but if you know how much it be before you start you can decide if it has value. I typically tell my clients get your own"fill in the blank" we will connect to it and call whomever you got it from if it breaks. I could care less if we sell any products. We get paid for design, install and programming. Products typically are a loser if you provide service.


----------



## audiblesolutions




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Some people are so defensive. You guys seem to attack me because I question your margins.
> 
> 
> 
> So lets try a very simple question:
> 
> 
> Why you you charge large markup and hour fees? If it takes you 15-20 hours of work to do a task, I pay more hours. Fine by me. If it takes 40, I pay for forty. You do more work, I pay more money. Seems simple and rationale. So why the markup? Charge higher rates rather than hide it in the markups. Your rate includes salaries, overhead, profit, etc. More complicated tasks take more time and entail more risk but you bill for more hours.
> 
> 
> This is how I interact with lawyers, accountants, and many other professionals. They do what I tell them as long as I pay their rates. My accountant doesn't care who they need to work with to get the job done (Morgan Stanely or stupid idiot bank) -- if it is harder for them, they work longer and charge me more.



Because I have no control or little control over the products I must integrate. If you'd like to pay time and materials I'd sell you gear at a discount. But Would you really like me to only work when I'm on your job site? Might you see some benefit from my working on your program when I'm off site? What if installation took 2 men 7 8 hour days to install your system? That is 16 man hours @ 95/man/hour or 10640.00 What if in addition to that installation fee it took me 21 days to design the GUI, program the equipment and code that system. Let's say I only worked 8 hour days but the reality is I work longer. At 150/hour that's 25,200. What if you had any issues? Cable box does not work, some RF interference, interface into other trades, shades lose their limit switches, you want to change the lighting scenes, turn on volume, or lord knows what. That is 1.5 hours travel time at my hourly rate x the time I need to be on site, with a minimum of 4 hours.


What would stop me from doing what the lawyers do? Namely running up the hours by working slowly, charging for every telephone call we have or I have with trades? There is a reason why even amicable divorces cost a fortune. Believe it or not I either discount labor or equipment. I need a bottom line number and you can pay me for my time or pay for the job. Even data entry takes time. The more time, no matter how trivial or simple the data entry, the more you will have to pay.

Moreover, I have far less control of my enviorment then do your legal eagles. They have the law and precident. I have constantly changing equipment, protocols that are after thoughts, heat issues no one wishes to deal with when the price of real estate approaches 800/sq ft. Put in the tiny touch panel but make it so I can control my whole house, including pool, jaccuzzi, CCTV, security, lighting, HVAC and shade subsystems. If any of those do not work you make it so they can. If I do not like the way the networks transmit programming on HD channels then ought not I have to fix it? What if you Toshiba TV will not tune in QUM digital signals? What if it has not discrete IR or serial jack? What if it just behaves funky? What if it has a secret handshake to enter service mode? What if it will not be addressed and put on the system? Who pays for the time to trouble shoot it? If you'd like to absorb that risk then let's sign the contract now.



Did you know that a security door contact costs .50 and sells for $8.00 That is much more profit than I make on a plasma and while your projector may seem as if I'm off to the bank I caution you to take account of what happens if it craps out? Who pays for shipping? Who pays for time trouble shooting, removing the unit and then reinstalling it? HDMI will not work? Fix it. I don't like the way aspect ratios display on the TV you sold me--yes that 10k projector. I don't like pixelization from the cable TV box on the 10K projector you sold me. That 10K projector used to work but now it does not turn on?


Do I get to act like a plumber? Do I get to charge for every man hour I am in your home? Let's go. I'm your man. It will be the first time my net profit exceeds 12% in years. We will move to a labor only model in the near future and you will pay more for my services not less. And I will have less responsibility not more. If it doesn't work I'll come back time and again and fix it and you'll pay for every trip.


Keep in mind also that I travel to 5 states, and even when I'm local I have to fight different traffic patterns every day. Unlike your lawyer, I don't drive to the same office every day. I have to fight architects and decorators and sometimes clients to get the proper engineering specifications built into their gorgeous mill work. I took a call yesterday from an architect upset because his gorgeous cabinets are not deep enough to accommodate a HD cable box. His solution? Go to a SD box. Can I get away with that were you to hire me?


The point is that since you don't know my costs how can you know if my charges are outrageous? If you'd like to pay for everything, as happens with lawyers--phone calls, faxes, copies, then go to it. My favorite is the client in the above example--who has yet to hire me-- who has called me 6 times and spoken with me on my cell for at least 3 hours-- and has solicited my advice on product selection but followed your preferred purchasing method of buying on line. If I go out of business is that in your interests were I to have coded your system? The bottom line is what's important not the price per line item. If you paid 40K more in labor than my quote but the bottom line is the same as when I sold the system with equipment at MSRP and labor discounted or if I discounted the equipment and charged more for labor.


Alan


----------



## Awake

Two parts:


1) So, your costs vary and are unpredictable. This is true in lots of industries. So, you increase your hourly rate to compensate. You adjust them if you need to travel out of state (some system integrators do this anyways).


Why is burying the cost in a markup a reasonable solution?


For some reason, you seem to think hiding it in a markup is a better solution than fixing your rates. To me, it gives me a feeling that things are being hidden and not entirely upfront.



2) The reason I feel the rates are unreasonable is that I can say with a high degree of confidence that you are likely to make significantly more money because I decided to buy a nicer component that was 5X the cost of the cheaper version but I liked better.


----------



## Mattman

Awake,


I hope that you did not misinterpret my response as an attack. It was not meant that way.


If those of us that are in the business seem a little defensive, it's because our right to make a decent profit is often attacked by folks who have presented their case much less reasonably than you have here. How you and I define what a fair margin is will be completely different because I am entering the transaction with a different perspective than you are.


If the products and services that I offer come at a price that you are unwilling to pay then it is your right to walk away. I am not trying to con you by charging more for product than I buy it for. We're all well aware of our client's ability to use the internet to determine what our cost for goods is. Even if we wanted to hide these facts, we can't.


By the same token, if you are unwilling to pay what I feel is a fair price for what I offer then I can also choose to decline the opportunity of working with you. I have the right and responsibility to conduct my business in a financially prudent manner that assures that I, and all the people that work with me, will continue putting food on our tables. This isn't your concern but it has to be mine.


That's the way of the world. I'm sure if people had easy access to the pricing of other product categories (pharmaceuticals come to mind) then they would be much more offended by those than they are about electronics.


When I enter into a project, I have two goals - make a profit and get referrals from my client. I will not get referrals if i do not do everything in my power to make sure that my client is thrilled with the end result. I will not be around to take advantage of the referrals if I have not been diligent about running a profitable business. If I can't accomplish these two goals then it is irresponsible of me to involve myself in the project.


Most of the a/v companies that have tried to follow the financial model that you suggest have not stayed in business very long. Yes, the people that bought from them got some fabulous deals but now if there's a problem or a desired upgrade then those clients have to look elsewhere. They're probably just fine with that because price was always their main objective.


I don't have a problem with your desire to save money. That's just smart. I do the same thing in many aspects of my own life. But there are many areas in my life where I value the expertise and the long term relationship and I am willing to pay a premium for it.


The cabinetmaker that built my bar and entertainment center easily costs twice as much as some reasonably talented trim carpenters that could have built a decent version of what I wanted. My cabinetmaker and these trim carpenters would have been using similiar materials to accomplish their tasks. I paid more for materials and labor because I wanted something special that was tailored to exactly what I wanted. For me it was worth every penny.


This may just be one of these cases where we have to agree to disagree. Crestron dealers are like fine cabinetmakers. They have spent years perfecting their craft and there will be a premium to work with them. But if you want the ultimate in automation and something truly special then you'll pay a premium.


If that premium is unreasonable to you then it is your right to move on. Hire the a/v version of a trim carpenter. The result will be okay but nothing spectacular. And that may be just fine for what you're wanting.


Good luck with your project.


----------



## Mattman




> Quote:
> 2) The reason I feel the rates are unreasonable is that I can say with a high degree of confidence that you are likely to make significantly more money because I decided to buy a nicer component that was 5X the cost of the cheaper version but I liked better.



This is true of everything else you're buying - cars, furniture, clothing, food, tools, appliances, etc., etc.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why is burying the cost in a markup a reasonable solution?
> 
> 
> For some reason, you seem to think hiding it in a markup is a better solution than fixing your rates. To me, it gives me a feeling that things are being hidden and not entirely upfront.



Because different industries use different pricing models, largely driven by *the free market*. Cell phone companies "give away" phones and make it up in the contract. How about $50 "activation" fees, that one always makes me smile. Activation takes 5 minutes (if that) of someone typing on a keyboard. Those naught cell phone companies. And what about those naughty banks, double dipping with their ATM access fees.


Of course doctors and dentists are the worst offender. How dare the dentists make any markup on that new crown he's charging me $1500 for? I'm sure that offends the heck out of some people, I just smile and say more power to him (if someone is poor that's another issue and another discussion with regard to medical issues). Of course it does not take a genius to realize it costs a fortune to pay for all the medical equipment and all the other huge expenses associated with running a medical establishment and the costs are divided out between hourly rates and "products".


If you want to buy equipment at a discount then follow that path. That's how it works in the commercial world.


1. Hire a consultant to design a system for you.


2. Then provide the spec to contractors to bid on. Most who do that type of work won't want to deal with a residence but I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find one.


3. Then hire a top notch programmer such as MDCI at $250 an hour.


In the end you'll have likely paid more, have finger pointing as to who is responsible for what, and so on, but you'll have that warm fuzzy feeling inside that no one made any naughty "dishonest" markups on you.


----------



## QQQ

p.p.s. I have decided to stop using Google. I STRONGLY object to their dishonest pricing model. It may appear to be free but I have concluded that in fact because they make so much money from advertisements that they are in fact ending up with a much larger percentage of my income (via my purchase of products from companies that advertise on Google) than I deem appropriate. This is outrageous!


Lest my post be thought tongue in cheek, only a little, for it truly reflects how idiotic these discussions are at their root.


----------



## QQQ

One last thought. Please note that no where did I say that it is unreasonable for a person to shop for and/or want a good price when conducting a transaction. That is NOT remotely what this discussion is about.


If I shop for a very high-end luxury watch it seems it would be natural to consider price as one of the primary factors in the purchase. And if I find that I can buy it from vendor A versus vendor B for $17,000 versus $19,000 I have every right to buy it from vendor B. I have every right to decide that the extra $2000 that vendor A wants is "outrageous", though I might be a wiser person if I understood that's an entirely subjective determination.


Now if $17,000 is what the market will bear, it really makes NO difference whether that watch costs the watch dealer $100 or $16,990. REALLY.


Now it's not unfathomable to think that if the market demanded it, it might work much differently. Watches my get sold at 10% over cost and I might have to pay a $500 consultation fee to look at high-end watches. Is one more "honest" than the other? Of course not. Another way to look at it is that if all the dealers who charge the "outrageous" markups on the projectors that the poster mentioned end up going out of business because they can't compete with Internet sellers with low overhead and no showrooms, we might just end up in a situation where seeing a projector will cost a fee. Again, the market at work.


What we have in this case is a poster who has arbitrarily decided that integrators don't deserve their "outrageous" markups.


One more last last thought. The funniest thing of all here is that as has been pointed a person who purchase a Crestron system is buying much more of a solution than a product. So it'd probably be of supreme importance to know the type of work the integrator you are hiring does, because you are purchasing that far more than a "Crestron system". But if you don't think an integrator has a right to make more money if you buy a more expensive product (which pretty much flies in the face of how the world works with almost ALL products) and that they only have a right to charge an hourly fee, that will never happen.


----------



## Mr. Integration




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Two parts:
> 
> 
> 1) So, your costs vary and are unpredictable. This is true in lots of industries. So, you increase your hourly rate to compensate. You adjust them if you need to travel out of state (some system integrators do this anyways).
> 
> 
> Why is burying the cost in a markup a reasonable solution?
> 
> 
> For some reason, you seem to think hiding it in a markup is a better solution than fixing your rates. To me, it gives me a feeling that things are being hidden and not entirely upfront.
> 
> 
> 
> 2) The reason I feel the rates are unreasonable is that I can say with a high degree of confidence that you are likely to make significantly more money because I decided to buy a nicer component that was 5X the cost of the cheaper version but I liked better.




Awake,


I agree with you in theory that a 50K projector is more profitable than a 30K projector. If your integrator is pushing higher priced products to drive his raw dollar cost up, than you need a different integrator. Your original thought of cost plus and labor is reasonable and frankly we have taken very large jobs this way. It ends up being more profitable because one cannot accurately predict the number of hours needed to complete a 40K sq ft home. In a smaller project I would tell you cost plus 30 plus actual labor hours is very reasonable.


I see your point about people driving the product up and unfortunately I have seen it first hand, our industry has become somewhat tainted, but the is not the "norm" most are very good and honest.


----------



## armendiel

Awake,


Have you tried getting quotes from different integrators and then, god forbid, negotiating? If someone says, "Hey bud, this is my bottom line price," then fine. Go to someone else whose bid is more in line with your expectations.


What you *ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT TO DO* is get someone down to the wire just to see how far they will go and then try to bounce that off of a competitor. You will not get any bids that way, or if you do, there is a much stronger chance that you will find someone who does half-assed or inexperienced work. If you make an offer and an integrator accepts, you are honor bound to go through with your part of it. I ended up buying a car that I didn't actually need because I low-balled a sales rep and he accepted the offer. I caught much heat from the SO but she understood why I had to buy it.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> When was the last time you went into a Ferrari or Rolls dealer and negotiated a discount? Would you complain about the $300+ oil change and take it to Walmart the next time?



I have seen a ferrari made, I have seen touch screens made. You dont come close to what is in the manufacture process.


Orange and apples PERIOD.


Crestron equipment is not a ferrari guys, this analogy is used over and over to try and convince people it should be valued as such.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Some people are so defensive. You guys seem to attack me because I question your margins/business model and want to get a decent bang for my buck.



hehe, You should read my threads on this here










For some reason everytime guys like you and me say HA shouldnt be expensive they get all defensive in thinking we are saying they dont need to make money. There are two ways to make money in this, Huge margins, small number of installs per year or Low margins, large number of installs.



Honestly, Crestron isnt for guys that get into the details and like to know the value of each item. Crestron is for people that just want to buy something they know will work without question, it has that going for it.


btw, for all those who think people dont negotiate $100,000+ cars, I would have to say you dont know many who can afford that stuff then. The ones I golf with will negotiate that and anything. They didnt become millionaires but just spending money on whatever and never negotiating. From a $2 bet on the course to $1 million land deals. These guys work all the numbers.


Im not saying all of them are like this, I have a good friend in Vegas that owns that Ferrari you talk about (and a Porsche), he has too much money to care any more. Heck he brings 15 of us out there and spends $10K for dinner in the foundation room at the Mandalay Bay. Now thats money without care. Surprisingly he doesnt have a crestron system in his house ( I was bugging him about that).


----------



## audiblesolutions

I sell Crestron so i am biased to Crestron. But anyone who has taken the time to read my posts would discover 2 constants. The equipment does not matter, espeically among these two offerings. But the integrator certainly does matter. You purchase the integrator and his skill sets and you install the equipment he recomends. I cannot know the ins and outs of every sub-system on the market and ultimately what you want is a feature set not an equipment list.


The price of Cerstron gear goes beyond the components themselves. you pay for the fact that there is a delaer base, manufacturer training, 24 hour tech support and a pre-engineered solution. None the less, it's expensive boat anchors if it is not installed and programmed correctly. And do not be misled by the dollar amont. I program for firms that have huge reputations and their work can be and often is very shoddy. I've seen all sorts of horror stories and yet, becuase I'm programming that system all goes well. But I work the hours required to get the job done not just 7-3pm. You purchase my skill set, my workahoalik trait and my ability to make these systems work, somehow, though it sometimes takes more than a day or 20 to get it all togehter. Thus you are puchasing my bottom line not Crestron's, not JVC's, not Sim2 or Pioneer's. I do not move boxes. I have no economy of scale. I provide small, ,custom solutions that work, all of the time. Does equipment fail? Damned right. But other than that the system works. It costs money and becuase it's a luxury, you are not ill and you are not in jail and you are not trying to protect assits from the spouse you're divorcing, I have no barrel on which to bend you over.


Those of you who have done it yourself know how much time it takes. And because I require reliablility I require a pre-engineered solution. I want the manufacturer to stand behind me. I don't want to risk that the system may not work every time or there will be a changed firmware and the 600 dollar touch panel will not work. I don't have that time or the inclination to absorb that risk. You want to DIY the soluton go to it and it's only your money you are risking. I'm risking my livlihood and possibly more should an individual as wealthy as this poster choose to sue me becuase the DIY solution I sold him failed to work.


Alan


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For some reason everytime guys like you and me say HA shouldnt be expensive they get all defensive in thinking we are saying they dont need to make money. There are two ways to make money in this, Huge margins, small number of installs per year or Low margins, large number of installs.
> 
> 
> Honestly, Crestron isnt for guys that get into the details and like to know the value of each item. Crestron is for people that just want to buy something they know will work without question, it has that going for it.



It's always fascinating to me how someone with no experience in a field, and very little knowledges of it, can be so sure of their "expertise", and make sweeping and ridiculous statements that are not remotely accurate.


And for what it's worth, though you endlessly parrot the line over and over again that the evil forces that be want HA to be "expensive", the reality is that many here on both sides have pointed out again and again that if a person wants to engineer their own system HA can indeed be accomplished for a lower price. That's why in my very first post which I later deleted I suggested that thread starter look at CQC, not necessarily because of money savings, but because it may be more conducive to what he's looking for.


And while you'll continue to rant about Crestron's "overpriced" solutions, others will understand that Crestron and CQC are two very different but very viable options, and that it's absurd to compare Ebayed touchscreens to Crestrons. Of course you'll also continue to ignore again and again that ANY tablet PC or UMPC can be used in a Crestron system as a full touchscreen if you don't want to use a Crestron touchscreen. The fact that in spite of that people choose to use Crestron touchscreens might give you a clue that they have some advantages, but that would mean you'd have to see the things in terms other than "ripoff" and "cheap". BTW, did you know that you can also use an ELO or 3M or Wacom touchscreen with a Crestron system?

*BTW, I do have one question. What touchscreen would you recommend if I'd like to be able to input balanced audio and composite and HD video, microphone, intsant on with no boot up time and no crashes. I'd like to be able to go to the touchscreen and page or intercom any room. View my security cameras. View a video window with picture and picture. View the security camera in picture in picture as I'm watching a movie in my theater. To name a few features. What "non-overpriced" touchscreen would you do that with?*


----------



## maddogmc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have seen a ferrari made, I have seen touch screens made. You dont come close to what is in the manufacture process.
> 
> 
> Orange and apples PERIOD.
> 
> 
> Crestron equipment is not a ferrari guys, this analogy is used over and over to try and convince people it should be valued as such.



Penngray,


I wasn't making a statement about the actual cost/quality of the items. I was speaking to the concept of pricing and negotiations at the top end of any given market. There are reasons for anything getting to the top of a particular market.


If what Crestron does where so easy, there would be any number of companies making comparable products much cheaper. Individual hardware components that can do most of what Crestron products do can be found relatively easily. Insuring that the complete system will work is an entirely different proposition. The value is in the combination of system integrator and reliable hardware.


FWIW, I am not and have never been a Crestron dealer or employee but I have been deeply involved with system integration work on a $1B+ project and can appreciate what Crestron does.


----------



## karos




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ............................
> 
> 
> Of course doctors and dentists are the worst offender. How dare the dentists make any markup on that new crown he's charging me $1500 for? I'm sure that offends the heck out of some people, I just smile and say more power to him (if someone is poor that's another issue and another discussion with regard to medical issues). Of course it does not take a genius to realize it costs a fortune to pay for all the medical equipment and all the other huge expenses associated with running a medical establishment and the costs are divided out between hourly rates and "products"
> 
> 
> ...................
> 
> .



I am amazed that most installers take it as a matter of course to mark up their product by 100% or more. And that is apart from 'labor' costs. The home automation dealers also have the temerity to state that they are not licensed electricians and you need them as well.


On the other hand, the medical business has become quite regulated for physicians. Medicare requires that you accept their payment schedule. Insurances follow suit. You cannot bill the patient for anything more. Dispensing most drugs in physician's offices is illegal. Those few medicines that require parenteral administration (injection) have reimburesement rates tied to the wholesale price, and if you dont purchase in volume, you get a 'mark down', not a mark up.


Interestingly, hospitals can charge an order of magnitude more for the same medicines ($10 aspirin) and their procurement methods are similar to the defense industry-the government just writes a check based on their 'cost'.


Individual physicians have been devalued over the past two decades. Reimbursement rates that are LESS in nominal dollars than they were 20 years ago. Add inflation into the mix and you realize that 20 years ago, physicians were being paid more than most executives, but not today. Insurance companies do not have to negotiate with physicians.


Most people would not even think of paying a physician real money for their health care. They argue about their $25 copay, but they sure want that wide screen TV.


Oh, and btw, costs to physicians have continued to rise because the free market (where physicians have to procure their goods and ancillary services) is not regulated. You better enjoy that 1080p projector now because your cataract repair will be hard to come by (unless you let a robot do it. Heh, that gives new meaning to 'the blue screen of death').


I cannot speak for dentists but I think they are also in a bind. Oral surgeons and podiatrists on the other hand, are doing WELL. Lawyers of course are unregulated and doing exceptionally well.


I still marvel at our society where we devalue real things (manufacturing, craftsmanship) and overvalue the ephemeral (home automation, video content, audio content, licensing agreements, legal argument).


----------



## QQQ

karos,


You make Excellent points and I actually had a fascinating conversation about this issue with one of my (doctor) Clients just a few weeks ago. I don't want to go off topic, plus the area is anything but my area of expertise, but just want to mention that my only point was that in many professions, even the most respected ones, there is markup on both services and goods.


----------



## Brent McCall

If there is something that I want I shop and compare.

If the price is too high I don't buy, if it is inline with my desire (re: within mean of market value)I buy.

If it is too high does that make all resellers crooks or me a cheap bastard (BTW I am a cheap bastard).

If Crestron prices (or anything) were out of sync with market value the company would fail, since they prosper I have to believe that they are in sync (overall).

The "CI" business is not like plumbling or electrical services, while individual jobs may or may not be harder for the "CI" overall he must have a greater understanding of a greater varity of products and services.

Much of this is learned outside of billing hours (or through mistakes that the "CI" generally pays for).

Very few working "CI's" are making a lot of money (or even a medium amout), the ones that do are very good business men first and "CI's" second (which is a good lesson for the rest of us).

Now whining that something that you want is too expensive because you wont (or can't) pay it comes off like a child throwing a tamtrum.

If you think that it can be done as well cheaper put your money into it like Dean has (the man can annoy me but I do respect him) and lets see how you do.

I wanted the new Panasonic 1080P, round up with the Mits 1000 (see my above statement about my spending habits). However that does not mean that Panasonic (or its dealers) are crooks.

OTOH; I have been doing this for almost thirty years and I paid full pop to have an alarm installed (my desire to not get into the corners of my attic was greater than my need to save money).

It is all about value to you and no one else..



BTW; Awake, what do you do for a paycheck?


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> karos,
> 
> 
> You make Excellent points and I actually had a fascinating conversation about this issue with one of my (doctor) Clients just a few weeks ago. I don't want to go off topic, plus the area is anything but my area of expertise, but just want to mention that my only point was that in many professions, even the most respected ones, there is markup on both services and goods.



I don't want to get into percentages but a dealer must make a profit on his product. Heck even if you had no stock, took the order over the phone and drop-shipped something takes time. If you were paid for that phone order by CC it probably cost the dealer 1.5%. In the event there is a warrantee issue, the dealer must take the time to resolve it.


When you're in service, how many 10 minute jobs can you do in one day?










Chip


----------



## audiblesolutions




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *karos* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am amazed that most installers take it as a matter of course to mark up their product by 100% or more. And that is apart from 'labor' costs. The home automation dealers also have the temerity to state that they are not licensed electricians and you need them as well.
> 
> 
> On the other hand, the medical business has become quite regulated for physicians. Medicare requires that you accept their payment schedule. Insurances follow suit. You cannot bill the patient for anything more. Dispensing most drugs in physician's offices is illegal. Those few medicines that require parenteral administration (injection) have reimburesement rates tied to the wholesale price, and if you dont purchase in volume, you get a 'mark down', not a mark up.
> 
> 
> Interestingly, hospitals can charge an order of magnitude more for the same medicines ($10 aspirin) and their procurement methods are similar to the defense industry-the government just writes a check based on their 'cost'.
> 
> 
> Individual physicians have been devalued over the past two decades. Reimbursement rates that are LESS in nominal dollars than they were 20 years ago. Add inflation into the mix and you realize that 20 years ago, physicians were being paid more than most executives, but not today. Insurance companies do not have to negotiate with physicians.
> 
> 
> Most people would not even think of paying a physician real money for their health care. They argue about their $25 copay, but they sure want that wide screen TV.
> 
> 
> Oh, and btw, costs to physicians have continued to rise because the free market (where physicians have to procure their goods and ancillary services) is not regulated. You better enjoy that 1080p projector now because your cataract repair will be hard to come by (unless you let a robot do it. Heh, that gives new meaning to 'the blue screen of death').



Last time i had to visit an emergancy room that 60 minute visit ( but 9 hours of waiting ) cost something in the range of 5k.


My last visit to an alargist cost 150 for a 3 minute alergy shot. The waiting room was full so 150 * 20 is 3000 dollars. Work an 8 hour day and that's a cool 24k; not a bad days earnings, if you ask me.


My wife had a baby and after insurance paid whatever they paid we received a 5500 dollar bill from the anestheologist. She worked at least 6 rooms that day so I suspect she did quite well. My wife has a friend who is a manager for a major hospital's OBGYN department. There is not a signle doctor who does not earn in excess of 300k. As an irrelavant aside, the OBGYN who was supposed to deliver my first child spent less than 15 minutes in the room with my wife despite a 28 hour labor. Many residents, nurses and inturns were in the room but he never left the nurse's station till he decided to perform a C-section. Then the SOB moved like greased lighting.


I am hardly begruding any MD what he earns. i am also not disputing that many individual MDs are seeing their earnings power reduced in some localities; just not in NY.


Last crown I had put in ( 3 months ago cost a cool 3500 and took less than an hour.


I know of no CI who charges 100% profit save in the secuity industry. In home furnishings, fabric, art, decoration or mill work shops this is an other story entirely.

When we make 50% we offer hosanahs and then watch as that money settles in the drain because we have to service gear that beaks ( it's not as if we get waranty pay from manufacturers when their gear goes bad), service horrid satellite and cable systems and have to fight with any number of wacky occurances. I am not suggesting i'm a doctor. But if you think it's so easy ask iVB why its taken him so long to get his system to work as it now does.


Alan


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> It's always fascinating to me how someone with no experience in a field, and very little knowledges of it, can be so sure of their "expertise", and make sweeping and ridiculous statements that are not remotely accurate.



I have written order management, inventory control, warehouse automation software for over 18 years so with huge software development experience none of my comments are ridiculous.


As for the touchscreens, I saw the 8K quote when I was looking for a system last April and I know I can get them for 2-3 thousand. Heck I buy industrial touch screens that work in -18C and they dont cost 8K. LXE, Symbol and many other companies in the data collection area got away with huge margins for a long time but not any more. I have seen cabling quotes so damn high that they were criminal, Monster cables, 10x the cost? For cable that we all know makes ZERO DIFFERENCE. That is my experience.


From my software background I still believe turnkey solutions can exist (I have a framework that I can create applications from in under 40 hours) this could be installed in any house in under 40 hours so even so charge $150 ($6000) for that and then usually a mainenance agreement is needed for any long term troubleshooting (that is what I do with my software). so my calculations are still around $15000 + $6000 + 3000 = $24K....no where near the 50K quotes. I understand total customization will be very expensive and I have no problem with it. the problem is that CIs should have a STANDARD design and a set of working screens and devices. Best software developers write once and use many times.



I have yet to understand why you guys hammer away at us like we have insulted you or stole your baby. Heck I never once posted that billing $150/hr is unreasonable. I still standby the fact that Crestron is for a certain type of person (one that doesnt care much about the money). One that will pay the HUGE premium for reliability. I did say that Crestron is known for reliability. I just think the Premium for it is just too much.


There is a big reason that the premium exists still though and its because there is no true good lower end competition. Barrier to entry has always been a good thing for Crestron but now that PCs and Microsoft type companies are involved this is going to change. You guys dont think so but technology evolves and hard things become easy therefore costs come down.


Throw the insults out again, I will keep posting my opinion without insult.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have yet to understand why you guys hammer away at us like we have insulted you or stole your baby.



Because you (and I don't know who "us" is, I'm directing my comment at YOU) continually and endlessly make inaccurate statements. As an example, what does this mean:


> Quote:
> As for the touchscreens, I saw the 8K quote when I was looking for a system last April and I know I can get them for 2-3 thousand.



You can now get what for 2-3 thousand? ALL you ever provide are outrageous claims! Provide us with some facts. WHAT were you quoted 8K on? *Manufacturer and model #'s please.* WHERE can you now buy it for 2-3K?


And please tell me what touchscreen you would use to meet my requirements I asked about earlier. It's a simple question.


> Quote:
> I have written order management, inventory control, warehouse automation software for over 18 years so with huge software development experience none of my comments are ridiculous.



Thank God I'm not so arrogant to think that my 20 years of experience that has put me at the top of my field makes me fit to even begin to understand your industry.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> BTW, I do have one question. What touchscreen would you recommend if I'd like to be able to input balanced audio and composite and HD video, microphone, intsant on with no boot up time and no crashes. I'd like to be able to go to the touchscreen and page or intercom any room. View my security cameras. View a video window with picture and picture. View the security camera in picture in picture as I'm watching a movie in my theater. To name a few features. What "non-overpriced" touchscreen would you do that with?



QQQ, you raise an interesting point here.


Everyone's point of reference here is different. I couldnt give crap about intercom from a touchscreen. There are cheap ones done through wall keypads.


I have read lots of about installs of $1M, installs for corperations and so on and again I think the point of reference we the small time home owner is coming from is way different. Im sure that is part of the issue. I couldnt care about corperate mission critical project scopesfor my home. I do that daily for business, I dont expect private consumers to pay anywhere near what I would charge a business.


This discussion in my opinion has zero to do with any corperate installs or even any million dollar installs for those with too much money. It has to do with home owners with something like $400 to $1 million homes looking for fundamental home automation, bells and whistles optionally.


Atleast we should get to the same point of reference.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> QQQ, you raise an interesting point here.
> 
> 
> Everyone's point of reference here is different. I couldnt give crap about intercom from a touchscreen. There are cheap ones done through wall keypads.
> 
> 
> I have read lots of about installs of $1M, installs for corperations and so on and again I think the point of reference we the small time home owner is coming from is way different. Im sure that is part of the issue. I couldnt care about corperate mission critical project scopesfor my home. I do that daily for business, I dont expect private consumers to pay anywhere near what I would charge a business.
> 
> 
> This discussion in my opinion has zero to do with any corperate installs or even any million dollar installs for those with too much money. It has to do with home owners with something like $400 to $1 million homes looking for fundamental home automation, bells and whistles optionally.
> 
> 
> Atleast we should get to the same point of reference.



OK, I will call a (temporary?







) truce on that eminently reasonable post.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> And please tell me what touchscreen you would use to meet my requirements I asked about earlier. It's a simple question.



A 1K umpc in every room of my house would give me the automation. I have touchscrens now in 3 rooms (total cost $1200), the shutdown after 2 hours of use and turn on in 5 seconds....good enough for me.


btw, Im not installing anything in your house its again my point of reference you obviously have a different point of reference and I guess you need the really expensive one.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> You can now get what for 2-3 thousand? ALL you ever provide are outrageous claims! Provide us with some facts. WHAT were you quoted 8K on? Manufacturer and model #'s please. WHERE can you now buy it for 2-3K?



I dont have the quote from the old house but I will look up the touch screens offered by crestron although you know them already probably. I have been to touchscreen production plants because I spent years research them for warehousing operations. Crestron had a huge markup to the cost of making them or then suck at keeping their production costs down either way I wont accept that price.


----------



## penngray

QQQ, you know have tweek my interested. What Touchscreen will do the following..... _input balanced audio and composite and HD video, microphone, intsant on with no boot up time and no crashes._


----------



## penngray

because I havent posted 10 times in a row yet.....


here is something I know you will laugh at







and it does honestly make a case for crestron's reliability.


My inline pathfinder matrix switch I was trying the past month crashed tonight so Im switching back to my autopatch. DIY reliability at a fraction of the cost.


Just thought I would post that so the CIs can laugh at me


----------



## QQQ

Virtually all of Crestrons wired touchscreens feature:


1. Microphone for intercom and paging.


2. Balanced and unbalanced audio inputs


3. Balanced and unbalanced video inputs.


4. Instant on with no boot-up.


There more expensive models also allow for component video and VGA input. If you have further questions I'd be happy to direct you to models, they make many different models.


----------



## penngray

definitely beyond the scope of my needs. Do they have any simple lower costs touch screens?


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A 1K umpc in every room of my house would give me the automation. I have touchscrens now in 3 rooms (total cost $1200), the shutdown after 2 hours of use and turn on in 5 seconds....good enough for me.
> 
> 
> btw, Im not installing anything in your house its again my point of reference you obviously have a different point of reference and I guess you need the really expensive one.



Not necessarily (do I need the more expensive ones). But since you always mention Crestron's 8K touchscreens I gave an example of some of the things an 8 touchscreen can do. Crestrons touchscreens start at about $1200. In my experience their touchscreen pricing is quite competitive when comparing apples to apples (and it's very difficult to compare apples to apples). I've looked at every touchscreen available for years, as I am constantly and endlessly evaluating what is on the market, but the problem is that no one makes good stand alone touchscreens for residential type applications.


I think UPMC's are the first thing even coming close to fulfilling that goal. Tablet PC's can, but who wants to have a tablet PC (by tablet I mean the laptop PC type) as their interface? Geeks maybe, but not Mr. and Mrs. America.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> definitely beyond the scope of my needs. Do they have any simple lower costs touch screens?



Basically using full retail pricing as the guide the options are:


Keypad: $360

APAD $500 (this is a jog wheel type interface with an LCD display)

Touchscreen $1200 - $10,000 +


Of course as I mentioned, you can also use your UMPC's with a Crestron system.


----------



## penngray

Thanks for the numbers!


----------



## karos




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiblesolutions* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Last time i had to visit an emergancy room that 60 minute visit ( but 9 hours of waiting ) cost something in the range of 5k.
> 
> Alan



Just goes to show you what a hospital can charge. A level 5 ER evaluation (this is a CPT code) by an MD (the max) is reimbursed at


----------



## Awake




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *armendiel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Awake,
> 
> 
> Have you tried getting quotes from different integrators and then, god forbid, negotiating? If someone says, "Hey bud, this is my bottom line price," then fine. Go to someone else whose bid is more in line with your expectations.
> 
> 
> What you *ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT TO DO* is get someone down to the wire just to see how far they will go and then try to bounce that off of a competitor.



Oh. That is all I ever wanted to do. The questions that started this thread were my attempt at doing research. It is hard to negotiate when I don't have good information. Knowing what the markups are and what low-cost street prices are allow me to talk intelligently and confidently with different integrators. I'm not trying to save the last dime but I am trying to get something more than MSRP because I know things can be had for cheaper in any market. If an SI I like gets somewhat competitive, I will probably be happy.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Brent McCall* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If there is something that I want I shop and compare.
> 
> BTW; Awake, what do you do for a paycheck?



That is what I'm trying to do. I'm comparing options so I can make a reasonable decision and carry on good negotiations. My preference is actually to goto one shop and have them do everything for me and not deal with multipe vendors/contractors. That has value to me. Value enough to justify MSRP margins? No.


I'm a software engineer.


Too many messages on this thread. I was actually working all day but it is a very interesting read. Some of the folks here are quite reasonable and obviously know their stuff. I'm thinking that if there are reasonable people here then I must be able to find reasonable people elsewhere.


I'm curious what people think is a 'reasonable' margin on a project (or on the hardware -- not sure the most sane way of thinking about it).


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm curious what people think is a 'reasonable' margin on a project (or on the hardware -- not sure the most sane way of thinking about it).



I will answer but first I'd like to ask you. What do you think is a reasonable margin on a project?


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm curious what people think is a 'reasonable' margin on a project (or on the hardware -- not sure the most sane way of thinking about it).



My token contribution to this thread is that I think a reasonable price to set is perhaps $1 less than the market will bear, but no less. I'm a firm believer in value-based billing - i'll determine what I think my product is worth in terms of value received, and charge that much.


My cost has nothing to do with you. It's none of your business. If you get value, then you should pay. If you get very little value, you should pay very little. We'll agree up front, so no one feels shafted. When I was in the Big 5 consulting companies, my billrate was $405/hour, and I had clients lining up to use my services. I got a tiny portion, but the point is the same.


Of course, this is exactly why I don't get into the CI business. It's not worth more than $40/hour or so to most folks. And for the folks willing to plunk down the bucks, Between the pre-sales cycle, amount of time spent debugging spotty hardware, and post-sales tech support, the amount I would earn on a job on a per-hour basis would suck.


Hats off to the pro's who've done this for >5 years for sticking with it. I opted to go to corporate america, where I can work 40-50 hours/week and be home in time for dinner with my kids on most nights.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> but I have been deeply involved with system integration work on a $1B+ project and can appreciate what Crestron does.



Dang, if we could just get a single job like that, I could retire 




> Quote:
> When you're in service, how many 10 minute jobs can you do in one day?



I guess it depends on what kind of service, and how long it takes a given customer to achieve total satisfaction.


----------



## maddogmc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dang, if we could just get a single job like that, I could retire



Not with the contract we had! It's hard to make money when the contract document fills 104, 4" binders, the basic contract under pinning are about as solid as quicksand, the customer is notorious for delaying payment and you are operating in a part of the world where bribery in form of bonuses, expanded scope for subs, special permits, etc. is considered business as usual.


----------



## Brent McCall

"There is a big reason that the premium exists still though and its because there is no true good lower end competition. Barrier to entry has always been a good thing for Crestron but now that PCs and Microsoft type companies are involved this is going to change. You guys don't think so but technology evolves and hard things become easy therefore costs come down."


I agree. But it does not yet exist.

As a "DIY" there are many things that could and would do that as a dealer I can not and will not.

When someone gives you their money for a system (any system they expect it to work period).

Yes, the consumer (and us) pay a premium for Crestron/AMX.

But with reasonable programming it will work first time/ every time.

It is not the hardware that you pay for, it is the stability (hardware prices underwrite developement).

Until something else comes along that is "JUST AS GOOD" for less the market will not change.

We ("CI's") and you (the consumer) want it to work.

We and you pay more for that to happen.

I noticed that there are several software writers on this thread (most code writers that I have known were not hardware people).

Do you write for existing hardware or do your companies build job specific hardware around your code.

In either case I am guessing that the code you write is fairly narrow in its control scope (it has to be to be stable).

HA systems are not narrow, too many brand and install options consequently the hardware has to be flexible AND stable..

BTW: Is your code sold in licenced modules (gets pricey fast don't it).


----------



## Awake




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I will answer but first I'd like to ask you. What do you think is a reasonable margin on a project?



Fair enough. I'm still trying to do research on this. My gut tells me that cost + 20% on electronic components + hours is probably reasonable for a project that is a fully outfitting a home that is 4000-5000 sqft (there are fixed cost components to any piece of work which make it, absent putting all your fees up front in the hourly charge, understanable to have higher margins on smaller projets). I do hope to refine this as time goes on. I've started engaging local SIs in discussions. Obviously, the people here come another perspective. My number may be high. It may be low. It is hard to determine given that I have limited data on margins and costs and such. Thus, I'm trying to do research


I do know that I have little faith that some magic number set in NJ by Crestron as the MSRP defines a 'reasonable' margin.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My gut tells me that cost + 20% on electronic components + hours is probably reasonable...



I will fully answer your question but am not able to write a full answer at the moment. In the meantime may I ask one more







? You mention that you are a software engineer. May I ask for what company?


----------



## armendiel

I don't know about you guys but if my net profit margin for the year is at 3% I am just as happy as I can be


----------



## stefuel

Damn, a "truce" it was just getting good









Comparing this home automation pricing structure to medical pricing got me thinking. At least a integrator calls what he does a legitimate business.

What does a doctor call what he does for a outrageous amount of money?

A "PRACTICE"







I don't know about you but I want a doctor who's gotten all the practicing out of the way before he works on me









Just my Saturday morning thought for the day
























Chip


----------



## karos




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> What does a doctor call what he does for a outrageous amount of money?
> 
> A "PRACTICE"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about you but I want a doctor who's gotten all the practicing out of the way before he works on me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Chip



dont worry. in few years, you wont need to talk to a person. when you get sick, you'll go to a machine, a system or simply go to a website with a usb device taped to your body. or you could fly to hyderabad or thailand if you want to talk to a person with more than a high school education.


----------



## Awake

So, QQQ is a bit busy. I trust he will reply sometime soon. Nobody else has offerred a suggestion at what a fair margin is (exception Mr. Integration who offerred a suggestion before I even asked the question).


I find it amusing that I suggest that MSRP is bad and lots of people try and justify it by analogy. However, nobody other than those to seems to be wlling to effectively say more than "Crestron is right. We deserve the price they set for us".


And I didn't even go as far to ask what the markups are on equipment. Which, obviously, I would like to know since I'm not trying to screw anyone just have enough information to have a reasonable business negotiation. So, I'm left with piecing together data based on research (FWIW, I've found discount suppliers and I have a price list for prices-to-public-sector so I have a fair idea of what markup is on Crestron hardware albeit not perfect).


Maybe this will stir up this thread a bit more.


Oh, QQQ, I'm sorry but I'm not comfortable talking about my employer to people I really don't know.


FWIW, I am probably going to track down a local Control4 installer and see what their pricing is like.


The suggests of CQC are interesting. I'm not quite willing to dump that amount of time into it myself although it certainly does look like a lot of fun to play with.


Lets get lively again!


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So, QQQ is a bit busy. I trust he will reply sometime soon. Nobody else has offerred a suggestion at what a fair margin is (exception Mr. Integration who offerred a suggestion before I even asked the question).



I responded with "it's an irrelevant question".


But, when I was going out to do independent contractor work for the same thing that i'm currently being paid as an employee, i wasn't willing to talk to anyone unless the per hour rate was a minimum of an 80% markup over my current hourly salary equivalent (salary/2080 hours per year). That was due to 30% for benefits, 30% for sales cycle, and 20% profit margin.


In your example, I'm not sure how that would translate, but dang it's at least 50%. Anything less is sheer business lunacy, and you would be guaranteed that I'd be forced out of business quickly.


If that means it's not worth it to you, then we're back to the "value-based billing" concept, which is why I think this is a pointless exercise and why you haven't gotten any responses.


----------



## stefuel









Game on


----------



## QQQ

Awake,


Yep very busy, but haven't forgotten about you. Not a two sentence answer...


I asked what company you work for only because I was curious if it was a public company, in which case I thought it would be interesting to include an analysis of their gross margins as well.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Awake,
> 
> 
> Yep very busy...



Working for that ludicrous markup again, Q? It's saturday, aren't you supposed to be spending the millions you're making fleecing folks?


(if we're going to stir it up, we may as well stir it up)


----------



## QQQ

Even with my outrageous markups I've got to spend lots of time fleecing, otherwise I couldn't afford my two yachts and private airplane. My financial manager is pressuring me to sell one of the yachts but I like having at least one more than all the other integrators.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FWIW, I am probably going to track down a local Control4 installer and see what their pricing is like.



Beware, they have the same "outrageous"







margins that Crestron does, just much less expensive stuff







.


----------



## Awake




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Beware, they have the same "outrageous"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> margins that Crestron does, just much less expensive stuff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .




Somehow, that bothers me less.


If I'm paying a 60% markup on a $200 item, I care less than if I'm spending 60% on $200+k of hardware. Certainly, worse less of my time to spend trying to optimize.


However, that doesn't invalidate your point at all -- just changes the psychology of the game.


----------



## Awake




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I responded with "it's an irrelevant question".
> 
> 
> But, when I was going out to do independent contractor work for the same thing that i'm currently being paid as an employee, i wasn't willing to talk to anyone unless the per hour rate was a minimum of an 80% markup over my current hourly salary equivalent (salary/2080 hours per year). That was due to 30% for benefits, 30% for sales cycle, and 20% profit margin.



No. Actually, you just validated my entire argument. Your sense of what I should pay is based on your time which is _exactly_ my argument. I'll pay you for for your time and reasonable margins to cover costs and profit and training etc. You hide it in your margins of the item and force me to reverse engineer things to negotiate then it gets much messier. However, paying MSRP doesn't in any magic way correlate to the argument you provided above. Or, did you forget to explain that part?


I found your numbers interesting because I would have expected sales cycle to be cheaper and benefit to be higher but at least I know your sense of value.


----------



## IVB

Sorry, I still don't get it. Why bother caring about whether you're paying MSRP for the goods and "hiding" costs in it, or paying deep discount for the goods and paying an upcharge for labor?


Isn't the bottom line the only thing that's important? Who cares what the line items are?


Tell you what, go find someone who'll give you a -50% margin. They'll give it to you for waaaay under cost. But they'll charge you $18000/hour for labor. Are you happy now, because you're paying what you deem to be an "acceptable margin"?


And frankly, sales cycles on something like this are painfully long. You have nimrods like us who weasel over every $1K and stuff like margins, and suck up dealers time. How much of a dealers time are you going to waste to make what, a $40K sale tops (all in)? People will expect 10-20 hours for something like that, get bids from 3-5 folks, maybe go with 1 or maybe DIY. From the sellers perspective, there's going to be a 1 in 5 chance the person goes with them. That's potentially 80 hours wasted per sale. At $100/hour, that's $8000, or 20% of the sale.


If the sale is less or some dude needs more time, the sales cycle drain is even worse. After being in consulting for 10 years selling the projects that i'd have to deliver, and in retail before that, I am painfully aware of how many folks out there will "shop around", then buy at the lowest rate possible. Hence my 30% stake in the ground for independent contracting.


All this is why I chose to DIY my own system, rather than hire a pro. I feel for the pro's, and the best thing I can do for them is to not waste their time on me. I'll do it myself, save the advice sought on these forums, and not mind so much on wasted equipment or time as i've saved the upcharge.


----------



## Awake




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry, I still don't get it. Why bother caring about whether you're paying MSRP for the goods and "hiding" costs in it, or paying deep discount for the goods and paying an upcharge for labor?



Because once I understand something, I can make an informed decision about if I'm getting a fair deal or not. I have no desire to take advantage of a dealer. I also have no desire to preserve the status quo and do something because everyone else does it -- so I seek information. If it is hidden, I don't understand it so maybe I guess wrong about their margins and end up trying to do a bad thing. Garbage in. Garbage out. If they came forward and say this is how much we are making on the hardware, this is roughly how our costs break down, we expect a profit of X%. It is a lot more reasonable. Sadly, they won't do that so I will do the best I can.


I'm still perplexed why you think there is a inherent magic to MSRP.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How much of a dealers time are you going to waste to make what, a $40K sale tops (all in)?



If I was talking about a project at that level, I probably wouldn't care about 5% The project I'm specing out is significantly larger (all hardware, not just the crestron stuff, AV, shading, lighting, etc although the crestron HW quote alone significantly exceeds that number) thus it is worth my time to research and get what I consider a fair price. This is what business is all about, no? This is a business transaction.


----------



## IVB

I suppose.


But, if it's much much bigger, then how much emphasis are you putting on price versus service, post-sales support, and long-term company viability?


I know when i'm evaluating vendors, the price is the least important. Most important is "how long will they be around to support this system after the fact". Sure, with Crestron I could go anywhere, but then i'd have to pay the new guy big bucks to learn how i've got it all setup. I'd just as soon build a long-term relationship with "the right firm", who can learn me, my situation, what I want to do now, and where I want to go in the future. That way the initial cost is irrelevant, cuz I know he's not going to screw me either on cheap parts at a low margin that won't grow with me, or on stupid labor costs.


The best way to find out if you're getting a fair deal on a 6 figure transaction isn't by talking to us schmoes, it's by talking to several folks at each dealer, getting to know them. Make sure they're who you want to be in bed with for 5 years, because dumping $200K on something isn't a wham-bam-thankyou-maam, it's $10K+ per year on tweaks and upgrades.


Basically the same way upper end car dealers work - don't sell a person 1 car - sell them 7 cars in 10 years (one for each driver/etc).


----------



## Awake




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Basically the same way upper end car dealers work - don't sell a person 1 car - sell them 7 cars in 10 years (one for each driver/etc).



And part of the way you do that is making sure they feel that got a good/reasonable price and good service. Both are important. If the guy feels like he is getting taken for a ride, he isn't coming back just like he isn't coming back if he gets bad service.


You are drawing too many conclusions about what I'm doing. On this forum, I'm researching prices and price structure. I'm certainly talking to several firms and I may not go with the cheapest firm because, as you point out, there are other very important sources of value. But, I'm trying to make an informed decision and there is enough snake oil in this business that being properly informed is a bit of a challenge and not the typical customer of for these guys


----------



## QQQ

Here goes


First off I want to mention that there are several things I am explaining below that I'm sure those who will be reading including Awake already know. However this subject has come up here in one form or another many times so I thought I'd write this as a catch-all so I could just point to it in the future.


As I see it there might be two elements involved in this discussion, an economic element and a psychological element. By economic, I mean an understanding of business economics. By psychological, I mean that some people have a psychological block that prevents them from accepting that it is *EVER* fair for someone to sell them something for more than xx% above cost (what ever xx is) even if it's required for the seller to sell above xx% to stay in business. Awake may tell me I'm off base and that does not apply to him.


Back to the economic aspect. Many otherwise highly intelligent people people simply have no understanding whatsoever of the realities of business accounting and the costs and margins associated with running a business. I've found this is ESPECIALLY true of techie and engineer types that have no involvement in the financial aspect of their business. They also often see how the proposals or projects they work on get bid and improperly draw conclusions that have absolutely 0 relevance to other businesses. To draw an analogy, the conclusions they often draw are as uninformed as would be a person who works in the perfume trade concluding that a plasma TV must cost $20 and sell for $2000 because that's the markup involved in a bottle of perfume. Awake may say he is doing no such thing but it certainly seems to me he is drawing conclusions about what profits I should be able to exist off of with no knowledge of my business.


Anyhow, I think most people think that the margins required to operate successfully in business are much less than they in fact are. I've also found that marketers and sales people in general often perpetuate the improper notions many people have about margins because they are always try to convince people that margins are less than they are ("we can't give you a bigger discount, we are selling this at 5% over cost as it is"). In fact, employers also often contribute to it to by purposely misleading their employees about what their margins are to stop the sales people from discounting or what ever. It's really a funny game.


Awake, I thought it was funny (though predictable) when in response to my question you stated that you thought a reasonable margin might be 20% over cost. I can't help but wonder if you are aware that even Walmart couldn't stay in business at that margin. I can only assume that you think an integrator doesn't need to make margin as long as they can charge hourly. As IVB pointed out no more than a few posts ago, that would be true, as long as we can double our hourly rates. It makes NO difference where the profit comes from, as long as it comes from somewhere. Because we are a service and product based business, it's going to come from both.


I want to talk about margins for a minute. Margins vary a great deal from industry to industry. However the fact that (GROSS) margins vary doesn't remotely mean that an industry with a higher gross margin is making more (net) profit at the end of the day. Because the costs to operate in that business may also be much higher. So when you keep saying Awake that you need to know what gross margins are to know what is fair, I'm mystified. You might as well know whether it's a full moon or half moon. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that as a buyer I don't feel just a little more empowered if I know what something costs, but it does not REMOTELY help me know what a fair (market) price is and probably doesn't help me too much either with regard to obtaining a best price. I can only determine that by shopping around or asking people what I might expect to find (which I guess is what you are doing to some extent).


So let's look at margins a little bit. First of all let's define margins. Forget xx% above cost because NO ONE who knows accounting talks like that, nor is it ever expressed on a P&L statement that way. Gross margin when expressed as a percent is the percentage of the total which represents profit, NOT the percentage above cost. As an example, if you buy something for $50 and sell it for $100 that is NOT 100% profit, it is 50% profit. Using the 20% above cost figure that Awake thinks is fair, the profit margin would actually be expressed as roughly 16.77%. No one actually stays in business on that type of profit margin, so I can see why you might think that would be fair for you







.


So let's look at some examples of gross margin throughout industries. These are numbers I came up with from some quick Internet searches, I don't claim them to be perfect but they should be accurate:


Walmart (the King of Discounters) 24% (using Awakes method, even Walmart's margins are (GASP) 31% over cost, and evidently they are not being very fair)

Home Depot 32.79%

AXT 38%

Intel 50.17%

General Electric 52.7

Software companies (Awake said he is a software engineer) are always my FAVORITES when it comes to gross margins:

Oracle 76.5%

Red Hat 83.84%


Those types of very high margins are typical of the software industry. Does that mean that knowing that would help me to negotiate a better deal? Of course not. Because it doesn't tell me anything at all about their expenses. Because while the product a company sells may have a high gross margin, the cost to support and market that product may be very high. In the end the net profit, which is all that matters, might be only 5%. Or it might be in the negative. Or it might be something insane like when Microsoft was making 35% net profit! In the end that's all that tells you how much of your money a company is actually getting to keep.


I wanted to write all these things because before I even mention profit margins in my industry. I want to put it into perspective because as a professional who prides himself on being fair to his customers it gets so tiring having uninformed people (and I am NOT referring to Awake) who have no clues what the cost are to run a business making uninformed comments about how those in our business are making a killing and taking advantage of people. So with that said, I'm not going to state what exact markup is, that would be inappropriate. I will simply say that the margins needed to stay in business in our industry and turn a profit are somewhere AROUND those of AXT. If you are in the market for a Crestron (or Control4 or just about anything else good for that matter) system and just can't accept the idea of someone making those types of margins on you, you'd be best served by not wasting your time or any serious integrators time. That's not being arrogant, it's just being truthful. Because no real business in this business is going to sell to you at anything close to the margins it looks like you want because they won't stay in business. At least I don't know of any that are and I see proposals from companies ALL the time. Also, most companies that are good at this are not going to negotiate their price. Their price is going to be their price.


Will people sell for less than retail? Sure. On Crestron my experience is that most will discount a modest amount. Most 3% to 5% off retail, some perhaps as much a 10%. Some will think I am saying far too much on a public forum, that this should be some huge secret, but I have no problem justifying my prices, nor any problem with people knowing what they will find out there.


In the end if I were doing this on the customer side I'd want to interview a few firms and discover first and foremost what the quality of their work is. I'd want to know how they price their systems and what they base it on and feel comfortable with it. I'd want to know if in general they are competitive compared to similar quality dealers. Most of all I'd want to feel comfortable with who ever I was working with, and feel as though they are responsive and care about what I want. With my firm we don't give proposals. We show people examples of our work and answer all of their questions and if they decide to proceed we sign a design contract. We perform a complete and thorough design for them which usually consists of several meetings and many hours of drafting and we provide them with a complete set of electronic blueprints for their home. They own the design. Along with that with that they receive a proposal based on our meetings. If they want to proceed with us they can, if not they can take our design to any other company and receive a proposal on it. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the way it works with some of the higher end companies in this field.


OK, that's my longest post for 2007 and hopefully for a while. Hopefully more than one person will read it







.


----------



## QQQ

Now that I have answered as promised, would you please tell me how in the world you can justify the outrageous margins in your industry. Clearly you are taking advantage of people. No wonder you can afford a Crestron system.


----------



## QQQ

BTW, I hadn't read all of the posts in this thread and just did. While I don't agree with much of what awake has written I do relate to many of his points, will take him at his word that we may be drawing wrong conclusions, and also understand how coming from a different industry he may prefer to see things priced using what he finds to be a more "honest" structure. I could even relate to this...


> Quote:
> If they came forward and say this is how much we are making on the hardware, this is roughly how our costs break down, we expect a profit of X%. It is a lot more reasonable.



...with the only problem I see being that the truth works both ways, many sales people lie ("I'm selling this to you at 10% over cost") because they know the person on the other end only wants to hear what they want to hear (i.e. they don't want to hear "I have to make 35% margin" or I cannot sell this to you and make a profit and stay in business). I'm not saying that's good, but it's the way many people play the game.


----------



## karos

I find it interesting how 'margins' evolve. When a market is small and production volumes low, prices are high. Not just margins, but the whole thing from start to finish. margins seem to be an afterthought and based on what the market will bear. Since 'automation' typically comes from the business environment (where costs are tax deductible and there are other ways to finagle high priced items as well) all I see are high priced systems. That walmart makes a 30% margin on the lowest priced products on the market does not bother me as much as a 30% margin on something that is askew in the big picture-for example- automation of a few room lights should not cost more than an audio system. If crestron made a 100% margin on a product like a logitech harmony 1000 that included 5 light switches and cost less than $500, then this thread would not exist.


----------



## Awake

Thank you for theresponse.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Awake, I thought it was funny (though predictable) when in response to my question you stated that you thought a reasonable margin might be 20% over cost.
> 
> I can't help but wonder if you are aware that even Walmart couldn't stay in business at that margin. I can only assume that you think an integrator doesn't need to make margin as long as they can charge hourly. As IVB pointed out no more than a few posts ago, that would be true, as long as we can double our hourly rates. It makes NO difference where the profit comes from, as long as it comes from somewhere. Because we are a service and product based business, it's going to come from both.



I'm remain a bit skeptical about that argument. I can goto an architect, clearly a trained well educated professional, and they can afford to sell me a house or a major renovation at a smaller amount over their cost. I can goto an interior decorater (similar industry) and they charge an hourly rate and the charge over costs varies immensely.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> day. Because the costs to operate in that business may also be much higher. So when you keep saying Awake that you need to know what gross margins are to know what is fair, I'm mystified. You might as well know whether it's a full moon or



So, I'd also like to know the costs of the business. The fact that I don't have all the information just forces me to approximate/guess about different parts of the equation based on research or comparisons to other industries. I'm very analytical in my approach so more data only improves my outcome. However, I've seen no data to suggest that there is magic about the MSRP other than it keeps installers/Crestron happy and generates enough business that makes keeps them happy. This doesn't mean that it doesn't make perfect sense for an installer to do a job for me at less than MSRP (but it does make no sense if they are 100% busy with big enough jobs).




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> half moon. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that as a buyer I don't feel just a little more empowered if I know what something costs, but it does not REMOTELY help me know what a fair (market) price is and probably doesn't help me too much either with regard to obtaining a best price. I can only determine that by shopping around or asking people what I might expect to find (which I guess is what you are doing to some extent).



Yep. I started asking about discounters to understand this. However, I haven't seen much other than attitude that MSPR is the high truth handed down from Crestron. Mr. Integrator suggested a cost plus 30 approach is fair. Privately, someone else gave me another discounting scheme.


I do believe knowing the costs helps me when I purchase a vehicle so I guess I disagree with the premise that the information isn't helpful.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So let's look at margins a little bit. First of all let's define margins. Forget xx% above cost because NO ONE who knows accounting talks like that, nor is it ever expressed on a P&L statement that way. Gross margin when expressed as a percent is the percentage of the total which represents profit, NOT the percentage above cost. As an example, if you buy something for $50 and sell it for $100 that is NOT 100% profit, it is 50% profit. Using the 20% above cost figure that Awake thinks is fair, the profit margin would actually be expressed as roughly 16.77%. No one actually stays in business on that type of profit margin, so I can see why you might think that would be fair for you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



While you are right that nobody express a P&L on a cost plus basis, many deals are negotiated on a cost plus basis. And negotiating a deal is ultimately what I want to do. Your point is valid although your assertions are incorrect about my position because I suggested hourly + cost + 20. Your comparison would be fair if the hourly component wasn't incorporated.


Somehow, there are plenty of retailers who manage to sell electronics (not necessarily Crestron) at a discount of 30, 40, or higher%. I was roughly assuming that the dealer cost was 50+% of the MSRP. So, maybe the actual dealer cost is lower than I expected and I should be negotiating as a % off of MSRP.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Walmart (the King of Discounters) 24% (using Awakes method, even Walmart's margins are (GASP) 31% over cost, and evidently they are not being very fair)
> 
> Home Depot 32.79%
> 
> AXT 38%
> 
> Intel 50.17%
> 
> General Electric 52.7
> 
> Software companies (Awake said he is a software engineer) are always my FAVORITES when it comes to gross margins:
> 
> Oracle 76.5%
> 
> Red Hat 83.84%



As stated above, you are right that the raw margin alone doesn't matter and I'm simply trying to put together the pieces to arrive at a reasonable price that is a fair deal for myself and the seller and allows them a reasonable profit (distinct from the profit that they get at MSRP).


However, knowing the margin and the hourly cost, I can estimate how much money they are making from my contract and then work in assumptions about salary and the various other factors that IVB mentioned and make a reasonable conclusion. I mostly agree with IVB's approach because it goes back to what I pay the people as a fair reflection of the amount of time they are spending on me.


Not quite a fair comparison. Except home depot (and maybe AXT -- I'm not familiar with them), these are all the companies that are adding a lot more (and unique) value than a Crestron system integrator. I would accept comparing them to Crestron's profit margin over the components it buys from Taiwan or whatever but I don't think they are reasonable analogies. Additionally, in all these companies, MSRP is a fiction if you are dealing with a non-trivial size order (basically, big enough to justify dealing with a direct sales force) so clearly they believe in negotiating.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Those types of very high margins are typical of the software industry. Does that mean that knowing that would help me to negotiate a better deal? Of course not. Because it doesn't tell me anything at all about their expenses. Because while the product a company sells may have a high gross margin, the cost to support and market that product may be very high. In the end the net profit, which is all that matters, might be only 5%. Or it might be in the negative. Or it might be something insane like when Microsoft was making 35% net profit! In the end that's all that tells you how much of your money a company is actually getting to keep.



Point taken. However, I think knowing the margins and understanding/estimating the costs is a lot more feasible for me when dealing with a system integrator than with dealing with a large company. For example, I think it is useful for working with someone selling me AV equipment and a Crestron system. I don't think it would be useful negotiating with Sim2 or Sony.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> anything close to the margins it looks like you want because they won't stay in business. At least I don't know of any that are and I see proposals from companies ALL the time. Also, most companies that are good at this are not going to negotiate their price. Their price is going to be their price.



We shall see. If they have plenty of work to do, you are probably right. If they are not fully booked and would rather make a reasonable amount of money rather than go through more sales cycle overhead, they might strike a deal that makes us both happy. I'll report back in couple of months once I'm living in a fully automated household.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> with, and feel as though they are responsive and care about what I want. With my firm we don't give proposals. We show people examples of our work and answer all of their questions and if they decide to proceed we sign a design contract. We perform a complete and thorough design for them which usually consists of several meetings and many hours of drafting and we provide them with a complete set of electronic blueprints for their home. They own the design. Along with that with that they receive a proposal based on our meetings. If they want to proceed with us they can, if not they can take our design to any other company and receive a proposal on it.



I've gotten a proposal from firms although they vary significantly in detail. Beyond that, they all operate in basically the way you describe. I have one firm I currently prefer and I may have them do the design and then search around for prices. My preference though is to work the entire process through one firm so I'm hoping (and I may fail) to have someone who can commit to a price structure (knowing the scope of the work, w/appropriate caveats if it changes significantly -- becomes smaller/larger/etc) which I am comfortable with.


I'm not sure what I will do if my preferred firm can't come up with something that makes me comfortably feel I will work through the entire process with them. If my #2 choice can do that, I might go with them because they are good as well just not quite as fitting in my personality. If neither of them can, I'll probably go with #1 and take the risk of finding someone else to implement the design at a reasonable cost. There is added risk of how to design when you have a poor understanding of the ultimate cost of the hardware (which is the majority of the cost).


On thing I do like about this industry is that they seem to believe that I _own_ the design. That is not always the case when dealing with architects.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm remain a bit skeptical about that argument. I can goto an architect, clearly a trained well educated professional, and they can afford to sell me a house or a major renovation at a smaller amount over their cost. I can goto an interior decorater (similar industry) and they charge an hourly rate and the charge over costs varies immensely.



I'm not sure your point. Interior designers as I see it are a bit of a unique bunch and typical of the fashion industry where there may be a loose correlation between cost and margin. A struggling designer may be happy to work for an hourly wage, a well known designer may require a 25K retainer to give you the time of day and may charge a 20% commission on everything.


In my business on the other hand there is at least going to be *some* similarity between the expenses involved in running a firm that does large numbers with a product like Crestron.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your point is valid although your assertions are incorrect about my position because I suggested hourly + cost + 20. Your comparison would be fair if the hourly component wasn't incorporated.


*I continue to be befuddled why you think that paying someone an hourly wage changes anything. If you pay Home Depot to install the water heater you want to purchase from them, do you think that means you get to purchase the water heater at a different price???*


> Quote:
> Not quite a fair comparison. Except home depot (and maybe AXT -- I'm not familiar with them), these are all the companies that are adding a lot more (and unique) value than a Crestron system integrator.



Hmm. Bizarre comment. I'm not suggesting that installing a Crestron system is as complicated as designing a jet engine, but I can't imagine many places where a professional adds more value. I can imagine many that add as much value, but not more. Perhaps our definition of "value" is different. As an example, in my mind a great builder/craftsman adds mind boggling value to a structure. One can create a structure that will be trouble free for years and represent excellent craftsmanship, another can create a structure where the walls will be cracking in a year and you hear the person in the next room taking a leak.


If you think you are just buying a bunch of Crestron components and that the value added is minimal, well, we're not only not on the same page were not even in the same universe.


> Quote:
> We shall see. If they have plenty of work to do, you are probably right. If they are not fully booked and would rather make a reasonable amount of money rather than go through more sales cycle overhead, they might strike a deal that makes us both happy.



So you want to find someone who is in low demand and desperate and needs business? Always a good way to make sure you're getting quality







.


----------



## Awake




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not sure your point. Interior designers as I see it are a bit of a unique bunch and typical of the fashion industry where there may be a loose correlation between cost and margin. A struggling designer may be happy to work for an hourly wage, a well known designer may require a 25K retainer to give you the time of day and may charge a 20% commission on everything.
> 
> 
> In my business on the other hand there is at least going to be *some* similarity between the expenses involved in running a firm that does large numbers with a product like Crestron.



Largely, all of these industries are some skilled person taking a bunch of things made by someone else and putting them together and a custom fashion. They have the same basic overhead costs. Your sales cycle may be a bit longer and consume more overhead cost but the structure is the same. An integration/service provider.


You are right that a well known designer is more expensive. However, the lower end is cheaper. They both have access to the same furniture (although different subcontractors if you need something built from wood/nails/a hunk of slate). Yet, both types of designers survive and propser. Architects sometimes manage to go on just the cost plus approach. So these types of structures are perfectly feasible in somewhat similar industries.


Yes, I pay a difference between the master craftsman and the hungry novice. Personally, I tend to pick people in between because that seems to be my perception of the best value. However, all the SI types (at least on this forum) seem to feel that the official margin is magically correct and I feel that the huge variation in similar industries suggests that variation in the SI industry is reasonable as well.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Except home depot (and maybe AXT -- I'm not familiar with them), these are all the companies that are adding a lot more (and unique) value than a Crestron system integrator.



In my personal opinion only, I believe this to be inaccurate. Although I'm sure you could pull any 2 pieces of equipment from a closed-manufacturer and plug them together, I wouldn't know the first thing about how to best select parts, design a system, and how to setup the rules/etc to do what I want in the most simple and maintainable fashion possible.


I wouldn't think a bunch of wire monkeys who just plug&play would do that well, so I'd stay away from those. Those are the guys of which you insinuate, but at the big $$ game, part selection, design, & maintenace sound pretty value add. If not in the ballpark of 80% like Oracle, certainly a whole whole whole lot more than the 24-31% that Walmart is at. In the "mental value" based game, i'd say Walmart is good for hiring seniors to peddle their low-cost crap and little else. An SI does at least twice as much good, so that's 58-62%, far far above the #s that QQQ was discussing for his space.


----------



## Awake




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In my personal opinion only, I believe this to be inaccurate. Although I'm sure you could pull any 2 pieces of equipment from a closed-manufacturer and plug them together, I wouldn't know the first thing about how to best select parts, design a system, and how to setup the rules/etc to do what I want in the most simple and maintainable fashion possible.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't think a bunch of wire monkeys who just plug&play would do that well, so I'd stay away from those. Those are the guys of which you insinuate, but at the big $$ game, part selection, design, & maintenace sound pretty value add. If not in the ballpark of 80% like Oracle, certainly a whole whole whole lot more than the 24-31% that Walmart is at. In the "mental value" based game, i'd say Walmart is good for hiring seniors to peddle their low-cost crap and little else. An SI does at least twice as much good, so that's 58-62%, far far above the #s that QQQ was discussing for his space.



I'm not sure I agree with your number but I agree with your point. I didn't mean to imply that I thought Walmart was a good comparable. Only that I didn't think the others were good comparables.


----------



## Awake

For more amusement. This thread is #1 on Google for "crestron prices"

http://www.google.com/search?q=crestron+prices 


The world is listening.... or not.


----------



## Awake




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> *I continue to be befuddled why you think that paying someone an hourly wage changes anything. If you pay Home Depot to install the water heater you want to purchase from them, do you think that means you get to purchase the water heater at a different price???
> *


*


Because it is more transparent so I understand it better and feel I can make a more informed decision. Pretty straightforward really. If how they make the money isn't important, you probably wouldn't mind explaining the Crestron cost-to-SI pricing structure since I can then easily figure out the equivalency.




Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ /forum/post/0 


If you think you are just buying a bunch of Crestron components and that the value added is minimal, well, we're not only not on the same page were not even in the same universe.


So you want to find someone who is in low demand and desperate and needs business? Always a good way to make sure you're getting quality







.

Click to expand...


Don't put words in my mouth. However, people will sell a good or service at cost X, once the number of people who will pay X are are exhausted, they consider selling to people who will pay Y *


----------



## David Richardson

Interesting debate. If Awake doesn't want to pay for Crestron then there are other options. Will regret the decision? Maybe. Maybe he has no idea of the ability of Crestron systems and can't see the valued added in that. Maybe he will never use that capability so the value added it is design overkill. His decision, his money. His right choice or wrong one. Not me to be the judge. Only Awake will experience the 'awakening' . Just be aware of the advice of the pros. There is a reason we are here to help out. I'm sure all the time QQQ has spent on this topic doesn't help his bottom liine so you might want to ask yourself what selfish motive QQQ has to spend time trying to help a DIY. It is possible he is just trying to be a kind hearted guy. A leap I know but possible.


----------



## JaykAVS

Well - I may raise some ire here from one or both camps but as a new member of the Crestron 'dealer installed' family I have a few opinions.


1. The cost of my system was not cheap. Not by a long shot. However, I did a decent amount of research and decided that I was willing to pay more for a 'bulletproof' system that was well designed and well installed. I could have gone cheaper and I could have done it myself but I would have heard neverending complaints from the wife so I opted for a better system and installation. Now that we're up and running - I'm 100% glad that I did.


2. There are various levels of technology for all kinds of implementations. You can buy cheap, inexpensive, crappy, decent, excellent, over-priced, junk or good (and yes, those are 'official' titles for each level







). The point is that you can find equipment and/or installation for many different levels of integration. I think most people get upset because they wish they could afford the better system but feel locked out because they can't afford it (I know I feel that way - there are a bunch of things I wish I could have added but the budget didn't allow it). This seems to be much more of a complaint about how the cost differences at each level is so drastic. My thoughts - free market. If you want x, you pay whatever x will bear. If you can't afford x - you can look at y,z,a or b.


3. I'm constantly surprised when installers get so defensive about their reasoning for making a profit. You guys don't have to defend yourselves. Some people see the value, others don't. The people that see the value will pay what the market will bear. If you do a good job with good service and reliability, then you will get customers. People who post about your profit shouldn't get you upset. You know the value of what you do, your expenses, etc. It's none of our business what your profit is. Either we are willing to pay what you charge and see the value in it, or not. I don't think you will change anyone's mind if they are questioning to that level. DIYers and value seekers are not Crestron purchasers (by and large) so let them find other options that will suit their budgets and needs. There is plenty out there for them. Those companies may charge less or more for different items. If you don't know how you fit in the pricing schemes out there, then you should re-evaluate your business practices. I can understand DIYers feeling 'left out' because they WANT to do their own Crestron install, but that is not Crestron's model. Good, bad or otherwise - it's the case. It may feel like a monopoly to some, but there are many, many other good products available to compete with Crestron. Again, either people see the value or they don't.


One person mentioned the $300 oil changes for a Rolls Royce. That is a great analogy. I want a Rolls too but I don't go into a dealership and say, the Chrysler's make a $2000 profit and you make a $50,000 profit so lower your price for me. That's just not how it works.


Good systems, good design and good programming are more expensive. There is a premium for those thingS. Either one sees value in it or not.


Again, sorry for the long diatribe but I have seen way too many posts where people slam installers (not saying the OP was slamming anyone but the bandwagon began nonetheless) and installers slam people questioning them.


Either pay for it or find something else. Unfortunately, that is the Crestron model. Fortunately, that is why the system has become so widely accepted as ONE of the best and that is why some see the value in paying for it. I'm sure, like myself, many wish it were cheaper but it isn't so we have a decision to make. I made the decision to have the system designed and installed and have no regrets.


I hope that whatever the OP decided to do that he shares his experience with us so people can see the value of Crestron or the value of the other options out there! Good luck with your decision!


Jay


----------



## intexltd

I have outsorced some of my Crestron programing projects to a CAIP, outside of the U.S., and it has resulted in a tremendous savings.

Granted that these are not extremely difficult programs, but all the GUI's were custom, and involved amps,receivers,blinds,plasmas,cameras.

In order to get some jobs , I have had to resort to either this method, or lose the business to other offshore Crestron Programmers. He also has access to crestron equipment.


In the past we have used "big-house" CAIPS, here in the U.S. to tackle jobs overseas, and we experienec more problems than we have, vice-versa.


It has been my experience that in some countries, Crestron and its programming are discounted much greater than here in the U.S., I think each country has to evaluate how much the local market can bear.


Anyway, I feel that if ALL top Tech firms in the US can outsource part of their programming to India/China, then why can't the smaller shops as well.


Just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## intexltd

As a follow-up, as both a consumer and retailer, I am not sure I believe in all the tactics that high-end shops use to bid their jobs. Each shop has their own fixed costs/overhead, and I as one, prefer not to have to subsidize the high rent/ high overhead of some outfits. As many of these shops have an oligopoly of sorts in some areas, they charge what the market will bear, not exactly what the service/product is actually "worth"


My latest copy of a A/V Reseller magazine suggested that in times of higher demand, shops should just raise their pricing, even though this would price many potentiual customers out of their price range, they argue that" these customers are not the ones you want anyway". This pholosophy of going after the cream, while discarding the "milk" of clients I feel might eventually backfire when we hit "harder" times.


----------



## Mattman

QQQ-


Well said.


----------



## audiblesolutions

One of the reasons I've been slow to respond is that I'm working 16 hours a day trying to get 5 mega systems on line for a new client. This has forced me to redo GUIs for 7 different panels, rewrite code to suit the foolish choice of GUI and re write or start from scratch 40% of my modules.


So where is the economy of scale? Where is the reproducable model? Where I agree with Mr. Rudeness is that Crestron or AMX will mark up their product significantly over a third party device that may or may not integrate seemlessly and for whom you receive no tech support. It may be a viable DIY option but as our friend from Northern Florida wrote, a viable business model for a pro is not the same product mix he might chose as a DIY. While I agree that using a touch panel as an intercom is hardly high on my feature list having it play .wav files is. Having balanced video feed available for CCTV cameras is a useful feature. Having instant on is an important feature as is instant off and some way to alter that logic in run time, especially if a video window is selected. Having that touch panel seemlessly intereact with the video switching and so display any video source from cameras to DSS may be overkill but for previewing a selection it can come in handy, even if it's not a mission critical enviorment.


What is my time worth? If I am competant, able to put your system on line in a reasonably fast time period, willing to work 14-18 hours a day, knowledageable of both hardware and software, RF and circuits, what can I bill my time for? ( I certainly would flunk English as I just dangled a prepostion.) No one in my memory will pay time and materials in a per/man rate. But it can take weeks of time to solve every problem. What happens when the shades lose their limits? What happens when you are unhappy with the TV picture? What happens when the picture pixelates?


I would never put in a Radio Ra system personally. I'd either go for a Homeworks System or employ Infinet lighting. Reliable RF is still a problem and if I had to run all over your house or office and drop 5 pounds and risk a heart attack for the effort then you are damned right I'm charging for the priveldge.


This is a stupid debate. Awake must be a communist as he seems not to believe in market forces. You charge what the market will bare. I will be the first to chime in and admit that some CI's are incompetant. Indeed I have programmed for some of those firms and it's quite possible that many of you own systems that were purchased but prey, not installed by one of these companies. There are also scum bag clients who don't pay their bills after the contract has been completed or who move the bar on what that contract ought to include ( as in the client who wanted me to fix their HVAC system becuase I supplied the thermosat. " I admit that you are not at fault but I only have faith in you to fix it [his HVAC system's wiring]. Since I owe you $10k if you expect to be paid you will fix this problem too even though I admit it's not your fault nor your problem." He was willing to pay me but I did not want the job. But I had no choice since I did want the 10K I was owed.


The problem is that no one wants to pay for the labor required to make these systems work. Any warantee issue and I'm done. Any number of warantee issues and I'm possibly out of business. It matters not a bit if I charge 100k in labor and my cost in equipment or my cost plus 50% on equipment and a reduced labor rate equvilent to that equipment sales' profit. Ultimately it's the bottom line that matters. I know a whole lot more than your electrician and I only fractionally charge more for my services. The fact is that the market determines what you will pay or what the price I can sell. If you want my services you will pay more than if you purchased the equipment yourself. That's my price and if you don't wish to pay it go elsewhere.


Alan


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *intexltd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As many of these shops have an oligopoly of sorts in some areas, they charge what the market will bear, not exactly what the service/product is actually "worth"



There is NO SUCH THING as "what the service/product is actually worth". DOESN'T EXIST! Not just Crestron, ANY Product. The ONLY "worth" that exists is the value YOU assign to it. Don't confuse that with "actual worth" because it does not exist.

http://www.the-privateer.com/gold-c.html 



> Quote:
> The Myth Of "Intrinsic Value"
> 
> 
> intrinsic (adj.) Of or relating to the essential nature of a thing, inherent.
> 
> 
> In economics, there is no such thing as "intrinsic" value. This is true for the simple reason that value does not reside in the atoms, molecules, chemical composition, or structure of an economic good. It resides, always, in the MIND of the individual perceiving the good. When looking to acquire an economic good, an individual must decide how much time, or effort, or other economic goods he or she is willing to offer in exchange. That decision determines the value of that economic good, at that particular time, to that unique individual.
> 
> 
> This is a crucial distinction. Value is not in what is beheld, it is in the eye (and mind) of the beholder. The reason why some goods evolve into money while most others do not has nothing to do with the "intrinsic value" of the goods so favoured. It is because a large number of individuals have realised that goods used as money have a unique usefulness. Unlike all other goods, they can be exchanged easily, and at any time, for anything.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *intexltd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As a follow-up, as both a consumer and retailer, I am not sure I believe in all the tactics that high-end shops use to bid their jobs.



If you mean "I do not believe in all the tactics that *some* high-end shops use to bid their jobs", neither do I.


So what do you think about Awake's tactics of going out and getting firms to give him bids to educate himself when he has absolutely 0 interest doing business with them on "normal" terms. Do you think it might be the professional thing to do to inform those companies up front of his intentions before spending hours of their time.


If I know that a real estate agent charges a 6% commission (or 3% if a second agent is involved since they split it) and I know this is the industry standard is it OK to have them show me numerous houses and never mention to them that I intend to ask them to drop their commission to 1% or have no intention of buying the house through them? Or might I give them the courtesy of informing them of my intentions up front?


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JaykAVS* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well - I may raise some ire here from one or both camps but as a new member of the Crestron 'dealer installed' family I have a few opinions.
> 
> 
> 1. The cost of my system was not cheap. Not by a long shot. However, I did a decent amount of research and decided that I was willing to pay more for a 'bulletproof' system that was well designed and well installed. I could have gone cheaper and I could have done it myself but I would have heard neverending complaints from the wife so I opted for a better system and installation. Now that we're up and running - I'm 100% glad that I did.
> 
> 
> 2. There are various levels of technology for all kinds of implementations. You can buy cheap, inexpensive, crappy, decent, excellent, over-priced, junk or good (and yes, those are 'official' titles for each level
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). The point is that you can find equipment and/or installation for many different levels of integration. I think most people get upset because they wish they could afford the better system but feel locked out because they can't afford it (I know I feel that way - there are a bunch of things I wish I could have added but the budget didn't allow it). This seems to be much more of a complaint about how the cost differences at each level is so drastic. My thoughts - free market. If you want x, you pay whatever x will bear. If you can't afford x - you can look at y,z,a or b.
> 
> 
> 3. I'm constantly surprised when installers get so defensive about their reasoning for making a profit. You guys don't have to defend yourselves. Some people see the value, others don't. The people that see the value will pay what the market will bear. If you do a good job with good service and reliability, then you will get customers. People who post about your profit shouldn't get you upset. You know the value of what you do, your expenses, etc. It's none of our business what your profit is. Either we are willing to pay what you charge and see the value in it, or not. I don't think you will change anyone's mind if they are questioning to that level. DIYers and value seekers are not Crestron purchasers (by and large) so let them find other options that will suit their budgets and needs. There is plenty out there for them. Those companies may charge less or more for different items. If you don't know how you fit in the pricing schemes out there, then you should re-evaluate your business practices. I can understand DIYers feeling 'left out' because they WANT to do their own Crestron install, but that is not Crestron's model. Good, bad or otherwise - it's the case. It may feel like a monopoly to some, but there are many, many other good products available to compete with Crestron. Again, either people see the value or they don't.
> 
> 
> One person mentioned the $300 oil changes for a Rolls Royce. That is a great analogy. I want a Rolls too but I don't go into a dealership and say, the Chrysler's make a $2000 profit and you make a $50,000 profit so lower your price for me. That's just not how it works.
> 
> 
> Good systems, good design and good programming are more expensive. There is a premium for those thingS. Either one sees value in it or not.
> 
> 
> Again, sorry for the long diatribe but I have seen way too many posts where people slam installers (not saying the OP was slamming anyone but the bandwagon began nonetheless) and installers slam people questioning them.
> 
> 
> Either pay for it or find something else. Unfortunately, that is the Crestron model. Fortunately, that is why the system has become so widely accepted as ONE of the best and that is why some see the value in paying for it. I'm sure, like myself, many wish it were cheaper but it isn't so we have a decision to make. I made the decision to have the system designed and installed and have no regrets.
> 
> 
> I hope that whatever the OP decided to do that he shares his experience with us so people can see the value of Crestron or the value of the other options out there! Good luck with your decision!
> 
> 
> Jay



Thanks for your post.


----------



## JaykAVS

I did get a few quotes for my whole house system before making my selection. I looked at Russound b/c that was what they builder's 'installer' offered. No HD so that option was out the window (turns out it was a good thing b/c they turned out to be incompetent and had EXTREMELY poor customer service on the basic home run wiring I let them install since I had taken their time getting a quote on the Russound system. Oddly enough, they had such a limited knowledge of things like iPod integration and Cat6 - this is definitely one of those little boys that tries to pretend they are a 'big boy'!).


I also went to a local shop and looked at elan but it didn't quite fit the bill. After a bit of research I decided on Crestron and chose 2 highly recommended designers/installers. There was a fairly decent price difference between the 2 but I didn't feel that there was a competency gap (again, both came highly recommended). It did appear that one of the 'biggies' had some add'l charges for 'quality oversight' and a few other things that when I compared apples to apples looked strangely like 'commission for the sales guy' to me







. That made the decision a bit easier but what actually pushed me over the edge was when he said that my job was 'not that big of a project for them'. Without going into detail, I can say that this was definitely a big project for ME!!!


The other installer(owner of the company) was competent, came out to a model home like mine to see what the finished product would look like and met me during the framing stage so he could double check mulitple parts of the project and make changes and recommendations with me.


Not a monopoly, not an oligopoly - I researched, I interviewed and made an informed decision to select this particular designer/installer and Crestron. My budget wouldn't allow security, HVAC or lighting integration but in the past month we have integrated the HVAC and the security system and lighting will be added soon (possibly irrigation as well). I feel I got a fair price (when compared to other Crestron installer options) and I have already referred this company to a few of my friends and neighbors.


My main point is that there are good companies and bad. I have had the experience of working with both and can say that there is definitely a difference!


I do not think it is fair to take a person's time to get quotes and ideas if you are not in the market UNLESS you tell them that you are doing so. Some people might donate some time and educate someone. If someone intentionally misleads a person to get that information then shame on them. There are PLENTY of places on the internet where one can obtain extremely useful information about these systems. A number of folks on this board have been instrumental in helping me make decisions by donating their time and posting and hosting whole educational and experiential websites (thanks guys!).


For the installers - there will always be people that will want to pick your brains and get the design side of things for free. This raises prices for those that ARE paying for your time because there is less of it left over for the paying customers. If someone is truly interested in a system then you have the obligation to educate if you want to get them as a customer. But you should also be able to weed out the 'tire kickers' and determine when someone is serious or not.


All that being said - I understand Awake's questions but I don't understand why any of the installers are even answering him. Get to work! If you are working 14-18 hour days on someone's project - stop wasting time trying to change someone's mind who is obviously not interested in having their mind changed and go spend time with your families!!










Not sure why I felt the need to reply to this post but I have been wanting to share my positive experience on AVSforum and thank everyone for their time and responses to posts here since the install and haven't had the chance so I guess I'm doing it on the #1 Google search page for Crestron Prices!!!!










Ten bucks says this isn't the last post in this thread










Cheers everyone!


Jay


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JaykAVS* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> All that being said - I understand Awake's questions but I don't understand why any of the installers are even answering him.



I tried to resist, I really did.


Thanks for another great post. When I talk with potential Client's working with fair/good people is very important to me and you sound like a great person to work with. It's what makes work fun and projects turn out well. I'm really glad you found a good company to work with!


----------



## karos




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JaykAVS* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> 
> All that being said - I understand Awake's questions but I don't understand why any of the installers are even answering him. Get to work!
> 
> 
> 
> Jay




Reminds me of the advertisement for Maytag with the idle repairman (are any of you old enough to remember THAT?!). Sitting around, doing nothing because his product is SO good. I guess only the Crestron installers have the time for that-all the others are busy with phone calls from the flaky products.


I expected many of the other guys/gals installing other products would have used this thread for shameless advertising. That they didnt do that, reassurres me that the people in this thread are mature (somewhat).


----------



## intexltd

QQQ,

I typed incorrectly, as I should have stated "what some high-end" shops charge, in no way did I mean all.


I think the majority of us are "fed-up" with the business tactic of "what the market will bear", and that was what I was referring to. As an analagy, how many times have we sat in a plane, next to someone on our left that has paid $100 for the ticket, someone on the right that has paid $500, and us who have paid anywhere bewteen or above the two.


The practice of charging $XXX for a crestron job one week, then $XXX + 15% another week, just due to his/her work load, just doesn't sit well with me.

Again this is just my rants/ravings.


----------



## Greg C




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *intexltd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> QQQ,
> 
> 
> 
> The practice of charging $XXX for a crestron job one week, then $XXX + 15% another week, just due to his/her work load, just doesn't sit well with me.
> 
> Again this is just my rants/ravings.



I think that you misunderstand this concept. The concept is not that the first week of April you charge more than the 2nd week, then again to a higher rate the last week of the month.

The point is that there are only so many billiable hours in a week. If you are so overbooked on a regular basis, then simple supply/demand theory is your prices are low for the market, and you should raise them. If your prices are too high, you are never working, and that is no good as well.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *intexltd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think the majority of us are "fed-up" with the business tactic of "what the market will bear", and that was what I was referring to. As an analagy, how many times have we sat in a plane, next to someone on our left that has paid $100 for the ticket, someone on the right that has paid $500, and us who have paid anywhere bewteen or above the two.
> 
> 
> The practice of charging $XXX for a crestron job one week, then $XXX + 15% another week, just due to his/her work load, just doesn't sit well with me.
> 
> Again this is just my rants/ravings.



Debates about "what the market will bear" aside, I'm not sure the above applies to this discussion. I'm not aware of any Crestron dealers that sell systems the way airplane companies sell seats







. Pricing is very consistent (of course differences exist as in every industry, but you know what I mean).


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *intexltd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> QQQ,
> 
> I typed incorrectly, as I should have stated "what some high-end" shops charge, in no way did I mean all.
> 
> 
> I think the majority of us are "fed-up" with the business tactic of "what the market will bear", and that was what I was referring to. As an analagy, how many times have we sat in a plane, next to someone on our left that has paid $100 for the ticket, someone on the right that has paid $500, and us who have paid anywhere bewteen or above the two.
> 
> 
> The practice of charging $XXX for a crestron job one week, then $XXX + 15% another week, just due to his/her work load, just doesn't sit well with me.
> 
> Again this is just my rants/ravings.



Alas, that is at the heart of capitalism. If enough people get fed up, they'll stop paying, and the tactics will stop. It is only in this fashion that economic darwinism will succeed, and this is the exact reason why US productivity has gone up so much annually whilst our socialist and/or "quasi-democratic" counterparts have struggled.


Greg C hit it on the head - it's not a super-volatile unstable state, but the trend is what has allowed the US to enjoy relative prosperity even in the face of the recession that has enveloped us for 6 years now.


----------



## QQQ

I'm not sure the airline seat situation is at he made it out to be. As an example, the fact that the person next to you paid more or less for their seat doesn't necessarily mean they did so for "the same thing".


As an example, if you want to mail something to me you can pay 38 cents or what ever the going rate is as long as I don't need to get it by tomorrow. If I need it tomorrow you'll have to pay Fedex $15. If I need it the same day you'll have to pay a messenger $40. Yet you would not look upon that as "paying different amounts for the same thing". Is the situation with the airline any different? Buy your ticket 4 weeks in advance and pay one rate. Buy it 1 week in advance and pay another rate. Better yet if you don't care about being bumped and don't care what day you have to travel you can save even more. In each case you are buying completely different things, NOT the same thing.


People need to remove the emotional element from it and really analyze it. I travel all the time and I'm know that if I buy at the last minute I'm going to pay more. I may not like it but that doesn't mean it's "unfair". If I call someone to repair my air conditioner and they make a midnight call I'd expect to pay more. Why should I expect to book a flight 24 hours ahead of time and pay the same amount as someone that booked 1 month early.


Now, it's entirely possible an airline could instead just charge exactly the same for every seat and just spread the costs out evenly. But in fact, the market (*US*) has decided they don't like that and all the people who buy early would move to another carrier.


----------



## Awake




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JaykAVS* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> All that being said - I understand Awake's questions but I don't understand why any of the installers are even answering him. Get to work! If you are working 14-18 hour days on someone's project - stop wasting time trying to change someone's mind who is obviously not interested in having their mind changed and go spend time with your families!!



I suspect QQQ actually believes what he is saying and thinks he might be able convince me. Possibly, he just enjoys a good argument/discussion. Oh well. Regardless, thanks for the replies. I sense this is fizziling out. I've learned quite a bit about the industry and I'm actually making some progress in my discussions with both local and non-local installers (the project is big enough that this is a valid option).


QQQ, Thanks for your time.


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Where I agree with Mr. Rudeness



lol, Yep I guess thats me.







Rarely you post without an insult...sigh. Why do you even bother? As someone else even posted why do you even care what we think?Heck we are not even the market you are after and if you are working 18 hrs/day I would suggest stop wasting your time on here










If its rude to get right to the point and be blunt about the obvious so be it, Im rude but I call it as I see it with out posting any name calling at all.


I stand behind the fact that I see crestron as an overpriced product. Its overpriced in general because Crestron knows the barrier to entry in this field has been hard over the years and they can ask for a premium price because there is NO alternative. CIs can kick and scream about this point of view but its simple business 101 .


CIs will attack the overpriced term but in the end they fail to realize that the customer is right. If I see it as overpriced, Im right only because this is simply a subjective term.


----------



## Greg C




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penngray* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CIs will attack the overpriced term but in the end they fail to realize that the customer is right. If I see it as overpriced, Im right only because this is simply a subjective term.



That is where you are wrong. Simple free market rules apply. If Crestron, AMX, Bentley, or Porshe are seen by you to be overpriced, you are not a customer.

If the items were overpriced in terms of what the market will bear, they would quickly be out of business. Customers are people who actually spend their money. You cannot be described as even a potential customer, because you choose not to invest your money on their product or any other that is truely equivelent in it's capabilities.

As long as it is your money, you are free to decide that it is not a good value for you. No one can disagree with you on that because it is a personal choice. But you are wrong in stating in no uncertain terms that it is overpriced.


----------



## audiblesolutions




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *karos* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I find it interesting how 'margins' evolve. When a market is small and production volumes low, prices are high. Not just margins, but the whole thing from start to finish. margins seem to be an afterthought and based on what the market will bear. Since 'automation' typically comes from the business environment (where costs are tax deductible and there are other ways to finagle high priced items as well) all I see are high priced systems. That walmart makes a 30% margin on the lowest priced products on the market does not bother me as much as a 30% margin on something that is askew in the big picture-for example- automation of a few room lights should not cost more than an audio system. If crestron made a 100% margin on a product like a logitech harmony 1000 that included 5 light switches and cost less than $500, then this thread would not exist.



Here I am typing, bleary eyed at 2:11EST after 17 hours of typing. How many software engineers put in these hours who are not praying for stock options to come due? It may seem to some that Crestron, as the King of automation companies, is presiding over a mature market but such is not the case. As a per centage of the market automation is very small, even if you include the sale of all universal remote controls for TVs in your count. At the scale I often work, where entire houses and sub-systems are automated, it is a cottage industry. Much as I try to create some economies of scale I am constantly customizing the GUI to suit the client or the company I program ( which are the twin barbs of programming for others ). It takes an unreasonable amount of time to perform the necessary data entry. Just something as simple as a toggle for lights, in Crestron's language, I do not use their toggle symbol but a more complicated combonation of logic to prevent a light or TV from turning on or off when and if the processor reboots.


Then there is Fujitsu's claim that if i use their serial protocol their volume graphic will display on the TV. What to bet that is untrue? How many hours of empirical testing did i waste to discover that? Each proposal I do takes about 6 hours. Then there is the tidious reworking of those proposals. Bad solder joint, typo either from using too small a keyboard, from being an AV monitor in Middle School and so skipped typing class or becuase I'm exhaused and I am doing one off piece work but for whom? Not for Awake, that's for sure. I regularly work 12 hour days and that does not include the time I spend on paper work or proposals. Although I hire a bookeeper I still am responsible for the books, even if that means I only have to identify accounts to which payable and receivables are booked.


Commercial jobs are much simpler than residiential. No condo board to insist that work starts at 9am but ends at 3pm. No problem working late nor are there philosophical issues such as following OSHA rules for shoes or law suits from clients for scratching their floors. No commercial account will ask me to have a touch panel GUI match the decorr of the room. No commercial account, since its consultant specified, will expect free or subsidized programming. No commercial account would ever procede without full set of plans detailing all aspects of the job. None of this is true in residential jobs.


I sat in a meeting recently with an indicdual who was getting manufacturers to pay for his automation project by trading access on the TV show he was producing on the subject. His budget for whole house automation? 5K. When I asked him if he'd hire us for design, that is for plans, he asked what value they might bring him in his project? Yet no commercial job would ever procede without plans.


You seemed so certain my Allergist was paying 150 for the shots he gave me. My suspecian, given his location and the 7 women in white lab coats working there, was that $5 was a more likely cost. I find it very hard to believe that a small Radio Ra system could cost anywhere near 10K. But at 210/switch, 500/repeater and 350-600/keypad it could certainly cost serveral thousand dollars. Might this possiblly be an instince of medical arrogance? That is, if all of us were as smart as a doctor then we'd have gone to medical school and we'd have the right to earn a living? Or is it just ignorence at how much time and how pooly devices integrate. Remember first principals: Electronics manufacturers make electronics not communications protocols. As long as their remotes work they feel they've done their due dillengence. I wish it was easier. I might not have to work 17-18 hour days and I might get to spend so time with my family.


Alan


----------



## Awake




audiblesolutions Just something as simple as a toggle for lights said:


> Seems like a good reasono not to use Crestron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiblesolutions* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ignorence at how much time and how pooly devices integrate. Remember first principals: Electronics manufacturers make electronics not communications protocols. As long as their remotes work they feel they've done their due dillengence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that is bad for you guys and manufactuters should be better. You entirely ignore the fact that software like that is largely reproducible and DOES have economies of scale. I'll grant you than sophisticated UIs may not (yet everyone I talk to seems to be hawking their special UI so I wonder how far I can stray from that). Driver software does have scale.
> 
> 
> Once you work out how to talk to a device, you can talk to the device in my house, Joe's house, or Tommy's backyard. I'm guessing, but I can't prove, the bigger programming houses have access to lots of drivers. Smaller guys are less so thus are probably more likely to encourage their clients to purchase the HW for which they have readily available drivers. My FUBAR model X123 should talk the same protocol as FUBAR model X123 in your house. Yes models will change and drivers will need to be updated.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tony Golden




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Once you work out how to talk to a device, you can talk to the device in my house, Joe's house, or Tommy's backyard. I'm guessing, but I can't prove, the bigger programming houses have access to lots of drivers. Smaller guys are less so thus are probably more likely to encourage their clients to purchase the HW for which they have readily available drivers. My FUBAR model X123 should talk the same protocol as FUBAR model X123 in your house. Yes models will change and drivers will need to be updated.



This was obviously written by someone without much "real world" experience  Just because a particular model works well in one home, doesn't mean it will be easy to integrate into another. That's only a small piece of the puzzle, and you have to take into account *ALL* of the other devices in a system.


Product XYZ might work fine with plasma A, but have quirks with plasma B -- now, multiply that by hundreds of other possible combinations. In order to provide consistently duplicatable results, the entire system must be the same. If a single part is changed, operational differences can be introduced. This isn't always the case, but it happens much more than many realize...


----------



## smoothtlk

Awake,

Yes there are economies of scale with respect to the software development. But, generally speaking, Integrators don't do software development - they do configuration of hardware / software to your install. Crestron / AMX / Cinemar / HAI / ELK / Russound, etc do the core software development but there is typically another distance to go to apply that software to your personal setup requirements. No two installs are the same and the Integrator's value is to divorce you of knowing how to make those modifications so that you love it in your home.


Now, it also holds true that once an Integrator has done one, two, three, ten homes, the eleventh is easier. So, the Integrator does "scale" as well. But, that raises the experience level and the reduced time of implementation, fewer "come backs", better understanding of what you will really like once you are using the system daily, knowing what hardware and software works for the long haul in daily use. So, yes the experience scales, but it also increases the end result for the homeowner so that experience comes with a more premium price tag, not less.


----------



## sic0048




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No. Actually, you just validated my entire argument. Your sense of what I should pay is based on your time which is _exactly_ my argument. I'll pay you for for your time and reasonable margins to cover costs and profit and training etc. You hide it in your margins of the item and force me to reverse engineer things to negotiate then it gets much messier. However, paying MSRP doesn't in any magic way correlate to the argument you provided above. Or, did you forget to explain that part?
> 
> 
> I found your numbers interesting because I would have expected sales cycle to be cheaper and benefit to be higher but at least I know your sense of value.



Awake - you seem to love this idea of Cost Plus. Cost plus has to be the worst way to have a contractor do anything for you. I don't care if it is installing a automation system, building a house, mowing your yard, etc.


Why would you want to expose yourself to unknown costs? You might have conversations with a contractor (and I'm lumping all of them together here - I'm not singling out automation installers) and think a job is going to cost 50k. Well, there are a couple of problems and a slow crew and suddenly your job really costs you 75k.


I personally think you are asking for cost plus with your mouth, but in reality you want a fixed price, but you don't see that value in paying what the contractors are asking. I don't think you really want to experience the unknown costs of cost plus, you simply think the value of an installed system is less than a Crestron installer is willing to do the work for. AND THAT"S OK - you are entitled to decide the value it brings to you! See the bottom of my post for the idea of value vs. cost/price.


If I agree to pay 50k for a contract job - flat fee, and the installer is able to get it done in half the time expected, I would be thankful that he finished early - I would be laughed at if I asked for a refund because of the lesser amount of time that it took to complete the work - and rightly so. Flat fee work encourages fast, accurate work done right the first time. It also puts the price risk (the risk of of profit/loss) on the contractor, not the buyer.


If I agree to pay cost plus and expect the job to take 2 weeks. The installer has absolutely no incentive to work fast or accurately. In fact, I think it promotes slow, and sloppy work. (Now you have to balance the fact that your customers need to be satisfied, so you can't drag the job out too long, or do too sloppy of work, but it does encourage slow sloppy work to an extent - or at the very least it doesn't promote fast accurate work). It also takes the price risk on the individual, not the contractor. The contractor is going to make the same amount of profit regardless of how long the job takes. So there is no incentive to finish the job quickly - the next job will more than likely pay the same amount of profit.


With a contract job, I know from the beginning what my cost is going to be and can make a decision upfront whether I am willing to pay it (in other words I decide if the cost is a VALUE TO ME). With cost plus, I don't have the luxury of making the decision up front because I don't know what the final cost of the job will be. Therefore I won't know if it is a VALUE TO ME until the job is over and it is too late.


Profit doesn't effect a consumers purchasing decisions. I want a good deal in everything I buy, but everyone makes purchasing decisions based on the VALUE the purchase brings, not the COST(or PROFIT I think is built into the item).


That's why I buy $3.00 gas. I don't like paying that much, and I would rather pay $0.85 gas, but the value of driving my car is still worth $3.00. I might complain about it , and think the gas companies are getting too much profit (much like you are complaining that Crestron installers make too much profit), but I still buy it because the value of $3 gas exceeds the alternatives. The amount of profit the gas companies are/are not making doesn't effect my overall decision. (If the gas companies were making $2.99 profit on every $3.00 gas, I would still buy it).


I personally won't buy a new luxury car. To me the cost is higher than the value it brings me. That is my personal choice and other people are absolutely going to feel different. For a lot of people out there, the value in a luxury car is worth the dollar cost. On the other side of the coin, I am not buying the cheapest car out their either because there is a price I am willing to pay for the items that bring me value in a car (like leather seats and air conditioning, etc).


Perceived profit doesn't come into either of those purchasing decisions - it's all about the VALUE I perceive the item to bring. Everyone is the same with every purchasing decision they make.


----------



## sic0048

Just to flesh out this idea of value vs. price/profit some more....


Taking the $3 gas example from above. There is going to be a price at which I stop buying gas. I don't really know what that price is yet, because I'll have to compare the price to the value that gas (and driving my car) brings. But let's say hypothetically, $10 is the limit that I find value in a gallon of gas. That means that as long as the price is below $10, I will buy that gallon of gas, regardless of the profit the gas company makes (again, you could make $9.99/ gallon and I would still buy it). Profit doesn't effect the demand side of the economic models.


But at $10/gallon, the price is now above the value it brings me. Other people may still buy gas at prices above $10/ gallon because it still is a value to them.


The gas companies will charge $10/ gallon if there is enough people willing to pay the price. This is where profit comes into the picture - on the supply side of the economic models. It doesn't effect the purchases decision to buy, but it does effect the price at which the seller is willing to sell.


If the gas companies can make as much profit at $10/ gallon as they make at $3 gallon, they will charge the higher price. They will sell fewer units (gallons) due to the market forces, but as long as they are satisfied with the profits, they won't change the price (without outside forces - like legislation). However, there is a price at which enough people do not see the value in the gallon of gas and the units sold will drop to a point where it does effect the gas companies profitability. At that point, the gas comanies will tend to lower their prices to lure more people to buy gas.


This is basic economics 101 in my own words.


Creston Installers are in the same situation. If they can sell their product for AwakeV+$50,000 (where AwakeV = the price at which Awake think the price is a value) they are going to do it as long as there is enough volume to satisfy their profitability objectives. So just because the installation price is higher than Awake is willing to pay, there must be enough people that are willing to pay AwakeV+$50,000 because for them the price is still at a point where they see a value: AwakeV + $50,000 = Crestron's customers perceived value )


Again, profitability has no place in an individuals purchasing decisions. It is all based on the perceived value that the consumer see.


Profit does effect the price that a producer is willing to sell their units, but it effects the supply side of the equation, not the demand side.


EDIT - just as a disclosure - the Crestron installed price is higher than my perceived value as well Awake. So I am not trying to say that Crestron is perfect for everyone. But I'm not bashing their price structure either.


Take a piece of advice and let this die. You are not making a good arguement, and you are certainly not making any friends.

*This is all basic economics and no one is forcing you to buy Crestron. If they were, then you would have an argument, but this is a simple example of market forces. Crestron charges the prices they do because they can. End of story.*


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sic0048* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Awake - you seem to love this idea of Cost Plus. Cost plus has to be the worst way to have a contractor do anything for you. I don't care if it is installing a automation system, building a house, mowing your yard, etc.



I was on a project once that was done at cost plus. I NEVER saw so many workers from so many trades taking so much time to make sure everything got done just perfectly














. Tasks which might normally take 1 hour took 8. However the owner avoided all those nasty markups







. Of course I'm sure Awake will structure his project in some other method that avoids the markups he finds so distasteful and still overcomes all potential shortcomings







. The interesting thing is there's a pretty simple concept here. You can only squeeze so much juice out of a turnip. If you squeeze too much, you doom any chance of a successful project. Some will know what I mean by that, other will not "get it" no matter what.


----------



## sic0048




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Tasks which might normally take 8 hours took 1. However the owner avoided all those nasty markups
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



I'm sure you meant to say that tasks that normally took 1 hour took 8! (Due to the "extra care" that was being taken







)


However, I certainly understood what you were trying to say, and I'm sure most others did as well.


----------



## QQQ

Yep, that's what I meant to say







(now edited).


----------



## sic0048

I might be an idiot for doing this, but I am going to explain this another way....


If I am in the market to buy a car, I am going to do some research to find the true cost of the car. I think this is what Awake is trying to do. I'll then take that information and try to negotiate as good of a deal as I can get with the dealer. Again, I don't find anything wrong in this, and I don't think many people on this site would disagree.


However, when it's all over, the dealer provides me with a price that they are willing to sell the car for (and profit plays a part in this setting of the price point). I then have to make a decision - is that price a good enough value (ie is the value I am getting in the product - car in this case - worth the price I am going to have to pay). That is my decision alone to make and it is different for every person (some people will find the same price I was quoted as being too high and will not pay it).


I think the same goes for something like an automation system. However it isn't as "tidy" as buying a car, becuase basically you are having something custom made for you and your system requirement and the profit margins will undoubtedly be much higher due to the low volume and high skills needed. However the end result is the same. The integrator takes your requirements and comes up with a price. There might even be a little negotiation that goes on, but eventually there is a firm price offered and the consumer has to decide if the price given is worth the value received by having the system. Again, this is a personal thing that will be different with every person.


Obviously for Aware, the value of a Crestron system is not worth the price (nor is it to me as stated above). But again, there must be enough people out there that feel that it is a value or Crestron wouldn't be able to find anyone that wanted their systems.


So Aware - we all know you don't think Crestron is a value. There are other companies and products out their that may be a better fit for you. But don't blame Crestron for being successful in their niche - even if the prices are more than you are willing to pay.


If you still don't understand any of this, then I suggest you get a basic economics textbook and read it. Better yet, take a class at your local college. Well, that is if you see the value in it










I'll finish by repeating my last comments of the other thread because I think it sums it up pretty well....


This is all basic economics and no one is forcing you to buy Crestron. If they were, then you would have an argument, but this is a simple example of market forces. Crestron charges the prices they do because they can. End of story.


----------



## IVB

Given that turnip juice is a known hangover cure , i can't begrudge the OP for wanting to get as much as possible.


However if you review that link,you'll note that "excess drinking is a reason for large amounts of intestinal gas".


Yep, even if you can squeeze gallons of juice out of a single turnip, you'll still be bellyaching and generally making others around you miserable.


The moral of this story is left as an exercise for the reader.


----------



## intexltd

The gist of what I meant to express, was that : as pricing of programming continues to rise, there will always be those that look for imaginative ways to cut those costs, in an effort to gain market share. One method is to outsource Crestron programming to those countries where a weeks worth of work may be less than a couple of hours of billed labor here.


I have seen this work on Crestron projects, where the installer spec's out the programming job, and it was done by an outsourced programmer at a fraction of the cost a CAIP Shop here would charge. Granted it needed some fine tuning, but which job doesn't.


As far as the Capitalism remarks, there is no one more Capitalistic than I, but the excess that we see now, are deplorable. What "some" M&A shops, Equity Funds, and Hedge fundsare doing to our US companies is deplorable. Where do you think those $1.6 Billion salaries/bonuses are coming from? They don't materialize from thin air, and someone is going to have to pay back that debt , that these "capatilists" have burdened the companies with, and you can be sure it won't be them. Sounds like "Gecko" ??


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sic0048* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So Aware - we all know you don't think Crestron is a value. There are other companies and products out their that may be a better fit for you. But don't blame Crestron for being successful in their niche - even if the prices are more than you are willing to pay.
> 
> 
> If you still don't understand any of this, then I suggest you get a basic economics textbook and read it. Better yet, take a class at your local college. Well, that is if you see the value in it



Do you really see it as an issue of "understanding". As I said in my long post, it's a psychological one. Some people simply can't stand the idea of someone making a markup on them and that overrules all reason and understanding. I used to have a relative that would buy all of their groceries at one market and then drive 5 miles to another market to buy the final bag of tomatoes for 10 cents less. They spent more on gas to get to that second market than the price difference between the tomatoes but the urge to pay less overcame all else. The project I mentioned at cost plus was the same. The guy hated the idea of anyone selling him something at a markup. Just couldn't stand it. So EVERYTHING was structured to stop it. He paid SIGNIFICANTLY more in the long run, but do you suppose he was anything less than proud of himself for stopping all those people from taking advantage of him? Do you suppose he regretted his decision? Of course not, because he was obsessed with stopping people from getting their markup and as long as he satisfied that desire (at least in his mind) all was OK.


----------



## Mattman

Actually, if Awake wanted to compare shopping for a Crestron system to shopping for a car then a more accurate method would be to determine the car maker's cost on all of the individual parts (spark plugs, pistons, fuel tank, etc.) and go from there. Again, that would fail to take in to consideration the engineering and design work that would go into making those parts in to a fully functioning reliable automobile so it is an incomplete and flawed method of determining what the price should be.


----------



## QQQ

Agreed Mattman, as I said Crestron is like lumber you build something with, but one of his primary contentions which is false but upon which he bases his entire premise is that the Crestron dealer does not add much value to the equation.


----------



## sic0048

Agreed, and that is the problem with making comparisons, they are never apple to apples.


But it really does boil down to simple economics. If you don't like the price, then don't buy "it". If nobody likes the price and therefore nobody buys "it", the company will fail. So there is a natural incentive to provide a good/service at a price that the market will bear. I think that is the point Aware is missing. Just becuase he doesn't see the value in what he has been quoted, he feels like NOBODY should see the value. But the truth is that we are all individuals and we all have different priorities that determine what we see value in.


I also agree with QQQ, it can be psychological in nature. Heck, lets face it - people that see the psycological side of selling will be more successful. In fact, as QQQ suggested, companies that can recognize people's needs and motives can usually succeed more. That is why some people are just natural salesman and some are not. It's not about screwing the customer because that will always come back and bit you in the a$$. It's about recognizing what the customer wants and showing them the "value" of "it" rather than just the price of "it". If a customer doesn't see the value, they won't buy your "it" - whatever "it" is.


OK - so I've gone from economics 101 to sales 101. Maybe I should stop now


----------



## Awake




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sic0048* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Obviously for Aware, the value of a Crestron system is not worth the price (nor is it to me as stated above). But again, there must be enough people out there that feel that it is a value or Crestron wouldn't be able to find anyone that wanted their systems.
> 
> 
> So Aware - we all know you don't think Crestron is a value. There are other companies and products out their that may be a better fit for you. But don't blame Crestron for being successful in their niche - even if the prices are more than you are willing to pay.
> 
> 
> If you still don't understand any of this, then I suggest you get a basic economics textbook and read it. Better yet, take a class at your local college. Well, that is if you see the value in it



I understand all this. It may yet be worth the value. I'm just researching it so I can make the best decision possible and dislike the mechanism for transferring the value because it is so opaque and a bit complicated.


No worries. I still believe MSRP isn't magical


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Awake* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No worries. I still believe MSRP isn't magical



You've stated that again and again but I believe you are projecting. I've yet to see a single person in this thread suggest MSRP is "magical" or particularly relevant. It's just a starting point set by manufacturers as a guide. Depending on supply and demand it may have more or less relevance as far as being close to actual "average" selling prices. Cost has little more relevance, for exactly the same reasons.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Agreed Mattman, as I said Crestron is like lumber you build something with, but one of his primary contentions which is false but upon which he bases his entire premise is that the Crestron dealer does not add much value to the equation.



The short end of the stick is, without the dealer there's no product. Joe Enduser can't go to Crestron and order anything. Just like you can't call GM and order a car.

You can go to a high volume dealership and buy a brand new car for invoice and the salesman will do so with a smile on his face. Can you say factory to dealer incentives?










Chip


----------



## IVB

In an interesting comparison, gas is now projected to hit $4/gallon in california.


I demand to know exactly how much this is costing the distibutors, and how much of this is due to price gouging. I feel that there are a bunch of crooks and hoodlums interspersed amongst them.


BIAB. I have to go put another 20 gallons in my SUV. I guess this means a few less lattes every month.


----------



## sic0048

Using gas isn't a perfect comparison either, since there seems to be very little "competition" between gas stations. I won't go as far as calling it price fixing, but I'll let you read between the lines










You also have federal, state and local taxes which play a big factor in determining prices. It's also why I am glad to live in South Carolina - where the average price from reg gas is probably $2.65-$2.70 (it changes by the minute now) - and why I feel sorry for you guys out in California with all the extra taxes thrown in.


----------



## Awake




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You've stated that again and again but I believe you are projecting. I've yet to see a single person in this thread suggest MSRP is "magical" or particularly relevant. It's just a starting point set by manufacturers as a guide. Depending on supply and demand it may have more or less relevance as far as being close to actual "average" selling prices. Cost has little more relevance, for exactly the same reasons.



Then why is it that everyone gets defensive when I suggest I don't want to pay MSRP? Clearly, many people are quite wedded to the concept. The strong negative reaction to the idea of discounting below MSRP suggest people do think it is somehow magical.


----------



## QQQ

Sorry, must not be reading the same thread, no idea what you are talking about, and no idea who "everyone" is. You are just hearing what you want to hear or what you want to think people are saying, not what people are saying or what they actually reacted negatively to. Feel free to point out any specific posts with passages where people got "negative about discounting below MSRP".


----------



## QQQ

BTW, since this the majority in this thread that have disagreed with you are Not dealers but rather consumers I find it humorous to even suggest that "everyone is negative about discounting below MSRP". I guess in your mind if people disagree with you about basic economic principles that means they are "negative about discounting below MSRP". It just occurred to me I've had enough of this head banging exercise.


----------



## penngray

_Im right only because this is simply a subjective term._




> Quote:
> That is where you are wrong. Simple free market rules apply. If Crestron, AMX, Bentley, or Porshe are seen by you to be overpriced, you are not a customer.



Crestron still being compared to a Bentley?


I can buy a $500 PC that will run a webserver for years. I can also buy a $3000 kick ass server that does the same job. There are people that truely believe they need to spend the $3000 and there are companies that exist purely based on the fact that they know somebody will buy that computer.


btw, I did say the term "overpriced" was purely subjective and so I find it really funny for someone to actually post that Im wrong in saying Crestron is overpriced. Isnt that the whole definition of being subjective?


----------



## penngray




> Quote:
> Awake - you seem to love this idea of Cost Plus. Cost plus has to be the worst way to have a contractor do anything for you. I don't care if it is installing a automation system, building a house, mowing your yard, etc.
> 
> 
> Why would you want to expose yourself to unknown costs? You might have conversations with a contractor (and I'm lumping all of them together here - I'm not singling out automation installers) and think a job is going to cost 50k. Well, there are a couple of problems and a slow crew and suddenly your job really costs you 75k.



Cost plus can have its benefits though and I dont think it should be done unless you know the person/company you are doing business with. I built my house at cost plus 10%...total cost was 35% under market value.


----------



## IVB

I do cost plus at work where i'm in control over it all (design/etc), and am using the vendor more as staff augmentation than anything else.


In all other areas, I do fixed fee by stage. ie, i'll pay you $X for a design. I'll pay you $X for some other tangible deliverable. Not milestone, but rather tangible deliverable.


Much better way of containing risk.


----------



## audiblesolutions

There are various elements of partial truth in this thread. Cresron does write a good deal of modules. On a job in the Great White North their module for Symetrix worked 75%. The 25% that did not work had to do with feedback from the symetrix for all analog values. Since displaying Master volume levels, individual zone volume levels, microphone levels to name but a few were important criteria for the job. I hardly expected to discover this, especially with opening day fast approaching, I had to rewrite the module.


I have a system that is essentially functioning but I need to put on line a CD server. I load the new program into the panel and discover that the panel crashed. Tech support later informs me that the error message translates into a failed eprom which is a known issue with the panel. known to many but not to me, since this is only the third of these panels I've worked on. Who paid for that time to trouble shoot the panel, either follow the manufacturer's advice and erase the program ( which I had already done ) and then copy and paste the old program into a new program or to replace it?


How about IR drivers that don't work? Don't they always work?


Why do pros participate on a DIY site, especially when they are busy? A. I don't post here every day. B. It is relaxing most times to solve other folks problems without the stress level.


Repeatability of software: It depends on the GUI. Only about 30% of my time is driver based. 50% is GUI coding and the remainder is spent on development or trouble shooting/putting systems on line. Crestron has 20 odd panels and I've hardly coded for everyone of them till recently. Then there are different subsystems. Not all security systems ems can use the same UI. Think Compool has the same UI as Jandy? Think Lutron would have the same UI as Vantage? Does every job have the same requirements? Might there be differences? I wish I could reproduce my code for every job. Is a Motorola cable box the same as a Scientific Atlanta? How many of those DMX music presets cable carries am I supposed to put on a touch panel? If I put 20 of the 41 and the client asks for all 41 what ought my response to be? How about the weather module that works on every job but not yours? What if the GUI I wish to use you find unattractive. You wish the attractive but unusable GUI you found on line? And who pays for reworking that GUI? How about the Genius salespuke who sold you global control on a tPS4? How about the fact that your TPS4 GUI will not fit on a TPS2000? HOw about if my lighting GUI works for 5 loads on your panel and you add a 6th load? There is only repeatability when I can sell you a solution I have fully implemented. Even then, there are all sorts of issues that can result, such as pixelating cable signals, TVs whose microprocessors lock up and either will not turn on or will not turn off? What if the company wired your system by connecting pairs of wires, failed to calculate power or has more than 32 devices on your system?


The fact is, I control nothing, not even my code as Crestron can introduce new firmware that causes me to rewrite that code. Yet I am responsible for making your system work. What happens if you think it should work differently then how I coded it? Since I am good at what I do and I work hard at it ought I not be compensated for it.


Alan


----------



## David Richardson

Alan


Get some sleep my friend! Plan and go on a vacation!


Dave


----------



## Jake Sm




> Quote:
> How about the Genius salespuke who sold you global control on a tPS4? How about the fact that your TPS4 GUI will not fit on a TPS2000?



Sorry, Alan, I won't do that again .....


----------



## zebby747

Reply to the OP:

Here is what I recommend, unlike the construction business, the CI business has not been governed by rules, law and regulation. When you are building a home, you are required to hire a professional such as the architect, engineers and etc and you have to submit the plan, the city has to approved your plan, now you can hire the contractor to build it according to the specs and hire an interior decorator to furnish the house.


There is no rules and regulation yet in CI business for what processor to use, what touch panel, what wiring etc.


That is a very good news for you. Take advantage of this current situation


Go to Ebay, and you can see there are many Crestron gears are being discounted, go do your own research and try to build your own system, install them yourself and program it yourself. I am pretty sure it should be very "easy". "Anyone" can design, build, install and program a working AMX or Crestron system. Crestron just make it difficult and CI professional just like to rip off people, since it is very "easy" to implement Crestron system.


Why should you pay more to have professional to do your system if you can do it yourself? I am pretty sure you are more than capable compared to the professional CI.


Better yet, you can even save more money by telling your lawyers, accountant, you will pay him half of what she/ he is charging. Go to google, type in any topic, you will see hundreds if not thousand of similar topics, and print them out. Tell them you are helping them, you are doing your own research.


Next step is once you accomplish your "successful" project, you should try to do a reverse engineering on the products. I am very confident that you can build similar products for fraction of the cost as well. You know something, Crestron and AMX have a HUGE overhead, since they have a highly skilled and paid engineers working for their products. You will cut their cost more than half. Your system will be cheaper, reliable and easier to deployed, I am sure many many CI professional will be interested to purchase your system, better yet, sell them to Home Depot, now you can sell them

nationwide.


----------



## etc6849

I definitely have to wonder why the OP is looking at Crestron if he's so concerned about cost?!? It's clearly always been a dealer only platform. Nothing wrong with that, especially given a majority of their target market is businesses.


It sounds like the OP wants a system for 1/4-1/3 of what a professional would charge to install, but there's nothing wrong with that either. There are numerous DIY options that can perform at a similar level for a fraction of the cost. However, they involve time and effort, and you do have to have a solid technical background to fully understand them and get them to work well.


I got into HA as a hobby, and have really enjoyed writing modules for all sorts of components. However, if you don't like doing stuff yourself and/or are unwilling/unable to learn for various reasons, like anything you are at the mercy of professionals. It's just the nature of the beast.


Crestron like any company can choose how their products are sold, and Crestron can have binding contracts with dealers that limit what can be done on pricing. Nothing wrong with that, especially given their target market wants a turn-key solution. It's a free country after all.


I agree with most of what's been said here. I do agree that a few dealer practices seem shady, such as holding a system's code hostage so a customer cannot switch to a different Crestron dealer. However, I don't think anything is wrong with parts mark up if the customer knows about it in advance and the market supports that pricing strategy. Ultimately it is the customer who decides what brand of system and if they want a copy of the system's files, etc...


IMHO, I wouldn't pay $20k+ for anything where I don't have full access to the software and/or full access to the source code so I can have someone else modify it later. You never know when integration firm A will go out of business, and you sure don't want to pay for the programming twice. However, I'm an engineer so I don't have a problem understanding SIMPL. I also read manuals when I don't understand something.


There are cheaper options such as Control4 that will likely do everything you want. However, Control4 is not DIY friendly either. Control4's standard GUI will save money on programming cost though, and it takes a lot less time to setup.


----------



## etc6849

Wait this thread is 6 years old?!? zebby747, look what you made me do


----------



## letMeIn

someone is reading the forum from the back.........


----------



## plasmatics

I'd be curious for an update on what the OP actually did after all these debates and research.


----------



## BigSef

Curious to know how much all in a Creston or Savant System would set me back in a 5000 & 7800 Square Foot Home?


Thank You Very Much!


----------



## BigSef

Can anybody help me with my inquiry on pricing please? A ballpark figure please for both systems? All the bells and whistles that is for both systems?



P.S. Are we talking $40 - 50 thousand American dollars or more? I live in Canada though. So I'm guessing it might be even more . . .


- - -


Thank You Very Much!


----------



## cntp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigSef*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/120#post_23712570
> 
> 
> Can anybody help me with my inquiry on pricing please? A ballpark figure please for both systems? All the bells and whistles that is for both systems?
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Are we talking $40 - 50 thousand American dollars or more? I live in Canada though. So I'm guessing it might be even more . . .
> 
> 
> - - -
> 
> 
> Thank You Very Much!



This is a VERY open-ended question. It all depends on what you want to control, and how custom you want to get. Crestron systems can run into the millions for large, complex homes. All the bells and whistles is pretty much whatever you can imagine, as long as the product is able to be controlled.


Your best bet is to contact a dealer and talk to them about what you want, and what your budget is. They should help you understand what is realistic, given that budget, or what kind of money it would take to get the features you want. If you go to them and tell them you want everything, then they will either ask you tons more questions, or just design their dream system and try to sell it to you.


----------



## ktrdsl23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BigSef*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/120#post_23712570
> 
> 
> Can anybody help me with my inquiry on pricing please? A ballpark figure please for both systems? All the bells and whistles that is for both systems?
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Are we talking $40 - 50 thousand American dollars or more? I live in Canada though. So I'm guessing it might be even more . . .
> 
> 
> - - -
> 
> 
> Thank You Very Much!



Though most people would say it is impossible to really say without knowing more of what you'd want (which I'd agree to), I'll still take a quick shot. I think both Savant and Crestron completed would be in a similar range. I wouldn't even speak with a dealer unless you are willing to part with $50-75k for a very basic system (wiring, audio distribution and local video), $150k-250k for mid-level (start getting into distributed video, lighting and maybe HVAC and security) and then $500k+ for an all bells and whistles kick ass system (including home theater construction).


Realize of course that the variance of any pricing will be monstrous depending on things like wiring, equipment (speakers can cost $500 each or $5000+ each) and level of control, not to mention if it is for the 5000 or 7800 sq ft home. My opinion is don't even call a Crestron dealer for a 5000 sq. ft house unless you are willing to spend at least $50k. Once you are willing to go into six figures you can start getting a little more serious about picking and choosing what you want without feeling like you're settling.


One final word with respect to video distribution. HDMI distribution is still quite expensive so if you want to keep cost down look to do audio distribution with local video. As long as the wiring is in place you can always go back and centralize video as new technology comes out and the price goes down (HDBaseT 2.0).


----------



## Neurorad

Crestron can be pricey, but it's the other stuff that adds up fast - regardless of the control solution.


----------



## BigSef




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cntp*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/120#post_23715495
> 
> 
> This is a VERY open-ended question. It all depends on what you want to control, and how custom you want to get. Crestron systems can run into the millions for large, complex homes. All the bells and whistles is pretty much whatever you can imagine, as long as the product is able to be controlled.
> 
> 
> Your best bet is to contact a dealer and talk to them about what you want, and what your budget is. They should help you understand what is realistic, given that budget, or what kind of money it would take to get the features you want. If you go to them and tell them you want everything, then they will either ask you tons more questions, or just design their dream system and try to sell it to you.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ktrdsl23*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/120#post_23716898
> 
> 
> Though most people would say it is impossible to really say without knowing more of what you'd want (which I'd agree to), I'll still take a quick shot. I think both Savant and Crestron completed would be in a similar range. I wouldn't even speak with a dealer unless you are willing to part with $50-75k for a very basic system (wiring, audio distribution and local video), $150k-250k for mid-level (start getting into distributed video, lighting and maybe HVAC and security) and then $500k+ for an all bells and whistles kick ass system (including home theater construction).
> 
> 
> Realize of course that the variance of any pricing will be monstrous depending on things like wiring, equipment (speakers can cost $500 each or $5000+ each) and level of control, not to mention if it is for the 5000 or 7800 sq ft home. My opinion is don't even call a Crestron dealer for a 5000 sq. ft house unless you are willing to spend at least $50k. Once you are willing to go into six figures you can start getting a little more serious about picking and choosing what you want without feeling like you're settling.
> 
> 
> One final word with respect to video distribution. HDMI distribution is still quite expensive so if you want to keep cost down look to do audio distribution with local video. As long as the wiring is in place you can always go back and centralize video as new technology comes out and the price goes down (HDBaseT 2.0).



Thank you both so very much for the info. I sincerely do appreciate it greatly.


----------



## stefuel

"all the bells and whistles"

OK, how much would you pay to be able to press a button on your I-Phone to flush a toilet in Germany


----------



## az1324




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/120#post_23733125
> 
> 
> "all the bells and whistles"
> 
> OK, how much would you pay to be able to press a button on your I-Phone to flush a toilet in Germany



It depends. What's in the toilet and are the cops outside?


----------



## jautor




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/120#post_23733125
> 
> 
> "all the bells and whistles"
> 
> OK, how much would you pay to be able to press a button on your I-Phone to flush a toilet in Germany



Objoke:

_"In my house there's this light switch that doesn't do anything. Every so often I would flick it on and off just to check. Yesterday, I got a call from a woman in Germany. She said, "Cut it out."_

--Steven Wright


----------



## AV_Integrated

Since we're on the subject and it has been seriously necrobumped...


I install Crestron and I buy almost entirely via eBay. This means that a serious system costs me well under dealer pricing during installations and I give a one year warranty on the product. The final cost can be in the same price range as far lesser expensive systems, but at the end of the day 'Fully Blown System' means that there is a LOT of other stuff going on and it isn't Crestron which is the cost.


20 pairs of good in-ceiling speakers - $3,000+

Amplifiers for all of those speakers - $6,000+

Touchpanels in all the rooms (WHY?) - $20,000 (stupid)

Keypads in all the rooms instead $3,000

iPad Control - Buy an iPad, add $99

Switching & preamps - $1,000 (or so)

Sources - How many? Call it 8. $2,000 maybe a LOT more.

Lighting system - $10,000+

Security, sprinklers, HVAC, pool, etc., etc., etc. - $200,000+


For all the money that is spent, it is not Crestron or Savant, or Control4 that the money goes to, it is the quality components that go in everywhere else. A good theater seat may run $1,000+. You may need 8 or 9 of them. The full theater build out without one piece of electronics can be $25,000+ fully decorated quite easily. Then people may gripe about a $3,000 projector and $5,000 in speakers and $2,500 in electronics in that same room. Go figure.


Right now, no company I know of does HDMI distribution better than Crestron. Nobody. Extron, AMX, and Purelink come close. The rest don't come close that I've seen. So, the price of that type of quality is significant, but in line with the other major players (AMX/Extron/Purelink). Think $20,000 for 8x8 HDMI switching. Double it for 16x16.


Bells and whistles? Yeah, that'll cost you. But, a full system in a home that size with just A/V distribution, maybe a bit of lighting and more general components? $20,000-$40,000 is certainly realistic depending on how easy the wiring is. The labor for wiring is a major charge and varies wildly depending on the home.


----------



## Neurorad

Why would you buy from eBay? Where do the eBay sellers buy their hardware?


Why don't you buy from Crestron distributors, and pay the same price as the guys do that are selling on eBay?


----------



## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/120#post_23753665
> 
> 
> Why would you buy from eBay? Where do the eBay sellers buy their hardware?
> 
> 
> Why don't you buy from Crestron distributors, and pay the same price as the guys do that are selling on eBay?


I buy from eBay because you can get used gear from companies that have gone out of business, or homeowners that have reason to sell for a far better price. I'm not talking about the ridiculous 'new' gear they sell, which isn't a bargain at all.


eBay has a fair bit of electronics that is extremely well valued if you know what you are looking at and you know what the approximate cost of the equipment actually is.


For example, right now you can buy a MX850 remote control from Universal Remote Control it's about $250 online.

Add an MRF-350 (RF receiver) for about $200 or so new.


That's about $450 for a RF universal remote control.


On eBay, right now...

Crestron MC2W - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crestron-MC2W-Control-Processor-With-RF-Works-/251292218164?pt=Home_Automation_Modules&hash=item3a822ef334 

That's a complete control system with integrated RF capabilities - $140 shipped.

Add a MX850 from eBay...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MX-850-UNIVERSAL-REMOTE-AEROS-/161110165939?pt=US_Remote_Controls&hash=item2582ea09b3 

$160 shipped.


So, for $300 you get a complete control system solution using product that is currently manufactured.


The risk is in that one of these products may fail quickly, but in my 10 years doing this, I have seen this happen one or two times.


So, you get a lot more quality for a lot less money. But, you have to know what you are looking for.


----------



## Neurorad

That's great for your own home, I've done the same - buy used Crestron on eBay.


I'm very surprised you would install it for clients, though.


----------



## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/120#post_23754121
> 
> 
> That's great for your own home, I've done the same - buy used Crestron on eBay.
> 
> 
> I'm very surprised you would install it for clients, though.


It is shameful that more installers don't take little steps which can save their clients thousands of dollars by knowing which products have a 20+ year lifespan and implementing those solutions.


A new component video switcher (8x8) is about $1,500+ from Key Digital.

A used Extron Crosspoint switcher (8x8) from eBay is about $100.


Crestron gear often has similar price swings, and I have always given a one year full-replacement (with labor) warranty on any gear I sell which is b-stock along with a huge price savings. Customers seem to be just fine with this.


The life expectancy is around 5-10 years on used gear from what I've seen, and the price savings that is passed on is extremely significant.


----------



## BigSef

Thanks for the great info. I sincerely do appreciate it greatly.


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV_Integrated*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/150#post_23755324
> 
> 
> It is shameful that more installers don't take little steps which can save their clients thousands of dollars by knowing which products have a 20+ year lifespan and implementing those solutions.
> 
> 
> A new component video switcher (8x8) is about $1,500+ from Key Digital.
> 
> A used Extron Crosspoint switcher (8x8) from eBay is about $100.
> 
> 
> Crestron gear often has similar price swings, and I have always given a one year full-replacement (with labor) warranty on any gear I sell which is b-stock along with a huge price savings. Customers seem to be just fine with this.
> 
> 
> The life expectancy is around 5-10 years on used gear from what I've seen, and the price savings that is passed on is extremely significant.



I had to keep checking the date of this post. Did you just say "component switcher"? You may want to visit this website http://www.timeanddate.com/


----------



## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *39CentStamp*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/150#post_23756444
> 
> 
> I had to keep checking the date of this post. Did you just say "component switcher"? You may want to visit this website http://www.timeanddate.com/


I have eight high definition sources running through my home for less than the price of a top shelf 8x8 HDMI switcher which would require audio extraction and full EDID support along with a requirement for non-blanking switching. I certainly make no apologies for the $100 I spent on a professional 8x8 component video matrix switcher.


My preference would be for the HDMI switcher, have no doubt, but at $10,000+ for a non-blanking quality unit, you have my budget confused with someone elses.


If you have a recommendation for one which meets the critetia of at least a 8x8 HDMI switcher, non-blanking switching, full edid management, and audio extraction with DSP, for a reasonable price (under $5,000 let's say), then please let me know.


Otherwise, I'm very happy with my setup right now which gives me 600+ movies, two cable tuners, Blu-ray, and gaming all in HD without a single hiccup.


I also have several legacy clients who had component video installed 7+ years ago who have no interest in upgrading yet unless it gives them the same reliability they have enjoyed for the last half decade plus for a reasonable price.


----------



## David Haddad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV_Integrated*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/150#post_23762220
> 
> 
> I have eight high definition sources running through my home for less than the price of a top shelf 8x8 HDMI switcher which would require audio extraction and full EDID support along with a requirement for non-blanking switching. I certainly make no apologies for the $100 I spent on a professional 8x8 component video matrix switcher.
> 
> 
> My preference would be for the HDMI switcher, have no doubt, but at $10,000+ for a non-blanking quality unit, you have my budget confused with someone elses.
> 
> 
> If you have a recommendation for one which meets the critetia of at least a 8x8 HDMI switcher, non-blanking switching, full edid management, and audio extraction with DSP, for a reasonable price (under $5,000 let's say), then please let me know.
> 
> 
> Otherwise, I'm very happy with my setup right now which gives me 600+ movies, two cable tuners, Blu-ray, and gaming all in HD without a single hiccup.
> 
> 
> I also have several legacy clients who had component video installed 7+ years ago who have no interest in upgrading yet unless it gives them the same reliability they have enjoyed for the last half decade plus for a reasonable price.


I believe you may have missed his point. He wasn't directing his comment at whatever you own, which until your post above wasn't even known. His tongue in cheek comment was directed at:


> Quote:
> It is shameful that more installers don't take little steps which can save their clients thousands of dollars by knowing which products have a 20+ year lifespan and implementing those solutions.
> 
> 
> A new component video switcher (8x8) is about $1,500+ from Key Digital.
> 
> A used Extron Crosspoint switcher (8x8) from eBay is about $100.



One might argue that it's shameful to be selling component video switching solutions in 2013. Then again, if you're business model is sourcing used equipment off ebay, you're probably limited in what you can offer. Personally I don't think any of it is shameful, not someone else daring to sell a new Key Digital switcher, and not you selling a used Extron switcher off ebay. They are both 100% legitimate offerings, even though personally I would not offer either of those solutions in the year 2013.


Anyhow, the crux of my disagreement is that it always seem strange to me when people have a mindset that not trying to sell someone the cheapest option possible is wrong or shameful. Economically it always makes a lot more sense to buy a used car, but it's not shameful that there are dealers selling new ones, to people who are looking for new ones.


----------



## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *David Haddad*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/150#post_23779622
> 
> 
> I believe you may have missed his point. He wasn't directing his comment at whatever you own, which until your post above wasn't even known. His tongue in cheek comment was directed at:
> 
> One might argue that it's shameful to be selling component video switching solutions in 2013. Then again, if you're business model is sourcing used equipment off ebay, you're probably limited in what you can offer. Personally I don't think any of it is shameful, not someone else daring to sell a new Key Digital switcher, and not you selling a used Extron switcher off ebay. They are both 100% legitimate offerings, even though personally I would not offer either of those solutions in the year 2013.


Good HDMI matrixing in a distribution system tends to run about $10,000 more than a top shelf component video distribution system. People are so hung up on HDMI, that they often think that it is wrong to use a proven solution. I get the desire to everyone to use HDMI, but people will go with poorly implemented solution for HDMI over using far better component video solutions just because that's the buzzword. They do it, not because they know better, they do it because they are sold it by the same people that don't get that 2.35 front projection is amazing, when properly done, but the poor mans 'zoom' method costs lumens, resolution, and is rarely the right choice. People just don't know, and most installers just don't know either.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *David Haddad*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/150#post_23779622
> 
> 
> Anyhow, the crux of my disagreement is that it always seem strange to me when people have a mindset that not trying to sell someone the cheapest option possible is wrong or shameful. Economically it always makes a lot more sense to buy a used car, but it's not shameful that there are dealers selling new ones, to people who are looking for new ones.


I don't think it's wrong that people sell new stuff. I sell new stuff all the time and it makes a ton of sense. I just also have spent a ton of time researching used products that tend to last for years when properly installed and maintained. Not sure how many dealers care to go this route over just making the sale and taking the money. Perhaps shameful is to strong of a word, but certainly it seems that most clients I meet want to save money and this really is a way that they can do so without impacting system performance in the short, or the long run.


----------



## az1324

A lot of my devices don't have component ports. I put in a 4x4 HDMI matrix for


----------



## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *az1324*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/150#post_23784019
> 
> 
> A lot of my devices don't have component ports. I put in a 4x4 HDMI matrix for


----------



## Jim_




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV_Integrated*  /t/836256/crestron-prices/150#post_23787614
> 
> 
> The problem is that EDID will force everything to stereo if there is a stereo sink at one end of the system.



Apologies for the hijack, but is this why my 5.1 receiver plays only 2.1 audio when the signal comes through my Monoprice 4x4 HDMI matrix? The two other outputs on the matrix run straight into TVs. Any suggestions to work around that?


----------



## AV_Integrated

If your TVs are using their internal speakers, then there is no solution to this with any of the cheap HDMI matrix switchers out there.


If your TVs are supported by in-wall or in-ceiling stereo speakers, then you can send the analog audio from the sources to your audio distribution system separately, or you can extract a 2-channel downmix of the audio using Monoprice audio de-embedders. The MP units allow for HD audio to be passed on to HD decoders while giving a stereo downmix from analog connections to a distributed audio system.


This is why 'cheap' HDMI and even 'mid-priced' HDMI matrix switching solutions really don't work for almost anyone. Only top tier solutions can address some of these issues.


You also likely have blanking as different displays are turned on/off and new sources are turned on/off within the system.


I have the MP 4x4 HDMI matrix and pulled it out in favor of component video to my home displays and HDMI to just a couple of displays. Eventually I will implement a Crestron DM solution which properly handles every single issue which I have addressed. I'm not sure if they will perform a stereo downmix on the fly on their output cards, but they will inject stereo audio if I needed it at any of my displays (I don't). Extron and AMX have similar solutions that truly work. Oh, and non-blanking switching that occurs in about a second instead of 5-10 seconds or more.


----------

