# My HT\2ch setup



## MIkeDuke

I decided to post my system setup on this site as well. I have been into audio for about 12 years now. My system has changed a lot since then.
As of now my system consists of the following:
*Preamp*
Marantz AV 7702 mkII
Original video settings
Video Mode-Auto
Video Conversion-On
I\p scaler-HDMI
-Resolution (HDMI) 1080p
-Progressive Mode auto
-Aspect Ratio 16:9

*EQ*
Velodyne SMS-1

*Amps*
Wyred4sound STmkII
Wyred4sound MC7150

*TV*
LG CX 65" 2020 model


*Player/source*
OPPO 203
Custom built server(post 1258)/JRiver media software 
Nivida Shield with Plex for 4k rips
*Raid 1 *18.1
*Raid 2* 21.8 TB
Sony PS3

*Speakers*
JM Labs 1027Be,
JM Labs CC1000be,
JM Labs Chorus 705v,
Sib Evo Atmos
Seaton Sound SubMersive HP(*program 2*),

*Chairs*
2 Lazy Boy Leather Harbor Town recliners
Crowson Technology TES 100 Tactile Motion System(for one chair)
Buttkicker BKA 1000 Amplifier

*Power Protector*
APC H15BLK 12-Outlet H-Type Rack-Mountable Power Conditioner

*Treatments*
2 GIK Tri-Traps.
2 GIK 242 bass traps
4 GIK 244 bass traps
The room itself is quite small. It is (LxWxH) 12.5fx9.5fx8f. But I try to make the most of it. Let me know what you think.
Rather then showing what the room used to look like, I will just show some more recent pictures.


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## MIkeDuke

Here is a picture with my old TV.That was a big 34in Sony TV

http://cdn.avsforum.com/6/6e/6e98dc8f_vbattach199340.jpeg


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## MIkeDuke

And then...
Here is an older picture of my racks together
http://cdn.avsforum.com/8/8a/8a019013_vbattach199341.jpeg


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## MIkeDuke

And here is one of my turn table.


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## MIkeDuke

Just one side of the room.


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## MIkeDuke

Now we get to the treatments. Here is one of the Gik Tri Traps


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## MIkeDuke

And this is what I have on the back wall and over my head


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## MIkeDuke

This is what the front of the room looks like


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## MIkeDuke

And this is what the front of the room looks like now


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## MIkeDuke

Even though you may not think it, going from a 34 to 42in Plasma was a nice upgrade. The picture looks really good.


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## MIkeDuke

Now here are some detailed charts and such that I did. This was with my old preamp, that was Halo C2 and an old EQ I had, the DSP30.
OK. Craig John from AVS came over on Sat. I asked him over so he could help me take some more measurements. We got them but I think somehow, I don't know how, my center was damaged. Craig thinks that maybe were turning the amps on and off to many times. We really did not tax it that much. After it happened the center sounded distorted. Now it has lost much of its SPL. So at this point I am running a phantom center, which surprisingly, sounds very good. I guess that's partly due to my setup. I want to show a before and after with the changes I have made. The first Chart is Craigs FR chart. In another email,This is what he told me about that chart:
I believe the charts are for the L\\R speakers not all speakers
With an 80 Hz crossover, the left part of the graph is the sub by itself, (from 80 Hz down.) The speakers take over at 80 Hz and from there up to 300 Hz, (the last gradation in the graph is 250, but the right edge of the graph is 300), the response is pretty much all the speakers. The peaks at around 100 Hz would be from the speakers, not the sub. The valleys from about 175 Hz to 300 Hz are also from the speakers. However, they are caused by the interaction of the speakers and the room. They are NOT the native response of the speakers by themselves.

The second is Mark's original FR chart that was with the big wall unit in the room, my big Sony TV and no room treatments. The Third chart is the Response Time chart. Now, also, here are some of Craig's other thoughts:
"Hi Mike.
I've attached the the graphs of your frequency response, real time analysis and RT-60. I saved them as jpeg's, to reduce the file size. They all show the bump at about 100 Hz and the dip at 250 Hz. Other than those 2 issues, which I believe are room related, (and likely not fixable without Room Correction/EQ), your system measures pretty good. The one graph that really surprised me was the RT-60. In your small room, I expected a longer reverb time, so to see it below 250 ms over the entire range, and under 200 ms over the range above 250 Hz was quite surprising. The low reverb time is certainly due to your room treatments, so good job on that! Also, fortunately, your system *sounds* even better than it measures. I'm sure this is also due to your acoustic treatments. Dennis and I really enjoyed the day yesterday. However, we both felt bad about the way it ended, with the blown Center Channel speaker. Hopefully, it won't be a big deal to get it fixed. If it's any kind of a hassle, let me know and I'll try to help out. In the meantime, enjoy your system."


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## MIkeDuke

And I have one more Chart. It is a Real Time FR chart of my system that goes up to 20k I think.


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## MIkeDuke

So my first preamp was a Halo C2. Recently I bought an Integra 80.2 and an OPPO 83 BR player. The following charts and thoughts deal with that aspect of my system. In addition to those changes, we moved my surrounds and moved my racks apart. Plus I bought the upgraded amp for my SubMersive.

This will be a quick update. I may do a longer one after I get more time with the system. First, every thing went as planned. Craig and Dennis spent all day at my house setting up my system. They moved my surrounds, moved my racks, installed the new amp and installed the Integra and OPPO. For the SubMersive amp we did the following:

"We ran Audyssey in Prog. 1 and then switched to Prog. 2. IOW, your sub is about 3 dB hot at 20 Hz. Nice little "house curve", with flat response above that. "I have only watched one movie and listened to some music but the changes were huge. I am happy I made these moves. I hope to have a new chart up soon.


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## MIkeDuke

So here is the new chart:
We ran Audyssey in Prog. 1 and then switched to Prog. 2
The green trace is Prog 1and blue trace is Prog 2


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## MIkeDuke

Here are some new pictures


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## MIkeDuke

one more
So that is the new look. You can easily see that we centered the TV and placed the racks on either side of it. I really do like the new look but the system sounds fantastic. It has never sounded this good before. And not be a snob but I replaced some gear that retailed for much more then the Integra and OPPO does but the Integra and OPPO are so much better for music and movies then my other setup was. Blu Ray and reg def DVD sound and look great. Also CD's sound really good. The sub and mains blend so well it is sick. Anybody who says the SubMersive can't play music does not have it set up right. Tommorow and this week end the real tests begin. WOTW, TF2 to start. We will see what happens with those dynamics.
All in all a very good upgrade.


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## MIkeDuke

And here is a graph of the sub(old amp) without any EQ at all.


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## MIkeDuke

So that is up to now. Let me know what you think and thanks for looking.


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## Franin

Finally Mike you have your awesome system up here but I cannot see any pics?


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## hotchip

Can't see the pics mate.


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## Bunga99

As I said before, Very Nice set up Mike! Love the all the Awesome gear and love what you've done in a small room too. I should know about small rooms










I CAN see the pics. I'm wondering if thats cuz I'm also signed into the Seaton Forum. Its possible you need to upload them here first so AVS members can see them.


When you have the pics sorted out, I'd love to see more of where the SubMersive HP is currently located.



Thx,

Claude


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## MIkeDuke

I know what I have to do. But it will have to wait until tommorow.


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## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I know what I have to do. But it will have to wait until tommorow.



Looking forward to see the pics.


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## MIkeDuke

Hopefully you guys can see the pictures now







.


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## Franin

That's fantastic Mike. I knew you had a great system it's good to see your using room treatment also. I see from the first pic the old centre best move with the CC1000be.

Btw are you going to go for a second sub?


Well done mate


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## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/19890715
> 
> 
> That's fantastic Mike. I knew you had a great system it's good to see your using room treatment also. I see from the first pic the old centre best move with the CC1000be.
> 
> Btw are you going to go for a second sub?
> 
> 
> Well done mate



Thanks Frank. That first picture is an old one. That is with my old cc901 that I was using, But centering the TV and raising the center really helped out a lot. There is no way I am going for a second sub







. The SubMersive HP is a beast in my room. I also have to say that adding the treatments was a huge upgrade in SQ. I was hesitant at first. I was afraid that they would dominate the room. But now, I hardly notice them.


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## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/19890821
> 
> 
> Thanks Frank. That first picture is an old one. That is with my old cc901 that I was using, But centering the TV and raising the center really helped out a lot. There is no way I am going for a second sub
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . The SubMersive HP is a beast in my room. I also have to say that adding the treatments was a huge upgrade in SQ. I was hesitant at first. I was afraid that they would dominate the room. But now, I hardly notice them.



My friends were freaked out with my room treatments I guess they didnt understand the importance but once the movie was playing they got a good idea of why they were needed. It makes a big difference.










What would be the best Best movie you would say that makes your sub work?


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## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/19890877
> 
> 
> My friends were freaked out with my room treatments I guess they didnt understand the importance but once the movie was playing they got a good idea of why they were needed. It makes a big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What would be the best Best movie you would say that makes your sub work?



Cloverfield and War of the Worlds are two big ones. But new movies like Star Trek are also very good. Also Master and Commander is a great one. The opening battle is killer. The newer Incredible Hulk is also pretty good. One of my other favorites is Live Free or Die Hard. Plenty of bass in that one. One more I will through out is The Dark Knight. All of those movies really sound great with this sub. But with 4 JL11'3's, I am sure all those movies rock your room as well.


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## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/19890924
> 
> 
> Cloverfield and War of the Worlds are two big ones. But new movies like Star Trek are also very good. Also Master and Commander is a great one. The opening battle is killer. The newer Incredible Hulk is also pretty good. One of my other favorites is Live Free or Die Hard. Plenty of bass in that one. One more I will through out is The Dark Knight. All of those movies really sound great with this sub. But with 4 JL11'3's, I am sure all those movies rock your room as well.



All good films there Mike certainly give our subs are work out


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## gingus

Nice setup. I have been seriously thinking of getting room treatments, but don't konw where to start.


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## MIkeDuke

Here are some simple shots of the sub


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## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gingus* /forum/post/19891479
> 
> 
> Nice setup. I have been seriously thinking of getting room treatments, but don't konw where to start.



Thanks. Treatments can be tricky. I will say that I first only wanted four total in my room. I ended up with eight. They have worked wonders. Mark Seaton, who really has driven me to make these changes said in a nice, roundabout way that I needed treatments years ago. I ended up contacting these guys
http://www.gikacoustics.com/ 

They really helped me a lot. I sent them pictures of my room and they made recommendations. Corners are a good place to start. You can look up about what are called "first reflection points" That should also help in the placement of the treatments. But I can recommend GIK without any problems. If I were you, I would contact them.


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## MIkeDuke

This month marks the 4 year point of me having the SubMersive. No regrets at all







.


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## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20148363
> 
> 
> This month marks the 4 year point of me having the SubMersive. No regrets at all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Fantastic Mike! They're awesome subs.


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks Frank. Yea, I like it very much.


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## Franin

Quote:

Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*
Thanks Frank. Yea, I like it very much.
I guess that's one item that will have a permanent residence in your home theatre.


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## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/20161949
> 
> 
> I guess that's one item that will have a permanent residence in your home theatre.



Yep. That is not going anywhere. I do need to tweak it some more and that will get done this weekend.


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## MIkeDuke

OK, an update for anyone watching







. I installed some Focal 705v's to replace my Polk speakers. I can tell already that it was a good move. The surround speakers sound much better and intigrate better with my system. I also had a SMS-1 installed that helped with some bass issues I was having in my room. If anybody cares, I will go into detail but setting up the SMS-1 in the system "fixed" the issue I was having. My system really sounds fantastic now, if I can give props to my own system







.


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## Bunga99

Thats awesome Mike!! So you dont have issues any more with the one scene WOTW and the SubMersive HP?


If you have pics of the 705v installed, please post them.


I dont think I'll ever get tired of looking at your JM Lab 1027 speakers - so beautiful looking!



Thx,

Claude


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## MIkeDuke

Claude,

no issue. The solution was to put in a filter at 12Hz with a very steep 48db per octave slope. That did it. Now I can put WOTW at -10 with no problem at all.

Here is some more detailed and technical answers to what the issue was and what we did to correct them,

This is from CraigJohn. He helped me with the setup of my system.


"IIRC, we measured your system with the DSP-30 engaged, and we didn't measure it again until we had run Audyssey. IOW, we never saw the huge peak at 40 Hz because we never measured the response without some EQ involved. So the peak was there... we just never saw it because we didn't measure the system at the right time."


"The subsonic filter cut the output below 12 Hz. The sub-12 Hz content needs massive amplifier power, and the higher in level that it is, the more power it takes. Audyssey seemed to be boosting those frequencies, so cutting them countered what Audyssey was doing. Audyssey was boosting them due the complicated way that it sets level. When the levels are when you have a huge peak in your room, Audyssey not only cuts the peak, but it boosts the content outside the peak to try to get all frequencies to the same level. I, (and Mark), had hoped that cutting the peak with the SMS-1 would reduce the average level enough so that the rest of the frequencies wouldn't need to be boosted. That didn't quite work, so we needed to add the subsonic filter to reduce the levels of the lowest content."

So that did it. Now my room sounds fantastic. Even better then it did before.


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## Bunga99

That's great you guys got it sorted out. I'm glad to read that all the changes made improvements in SQ as well.


Please post pics of the new surrounds as well when you have the time to take some pics.


You've inspired me to add some room treatments to my room as well. Hopefully I will have some installed in the up and coming months.


Thank you again for always helping me out and taking the time to provide awesome feedback! Its greatly appreciated!






Claude


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## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20224838
> 
> 
> OK, an update for anyone watching
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I installed some Focal 705v's to replace my Polk speakers. I can tell already that it was a good move. The surround speakers sound much better and intigrate better with my system. I also had a SMS-1 installed that helped with some bass issues I was having in my room. If anybody cares, I will go into detail but setting up the SMS-1 in the system "fixed" the issue I was having. My system really sounds fantastic now, if I can give props to my own system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Fantastic stuff Mike. I knew the focals will do the job some pics will be great.


I love to hear the issue you were having and how the sms-1 fixed it for you. Btw I thought you would of used the AS-EQ1 for the sub eq.


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## MIkeDuke

Hey Franin,

One of the guys who helped with the setup had a Velodyne SMS-1 that he was not using so I bought it from him for a great price. I will try and take some pictures of the surrounds at some point. If you are interested in what we did and what the charts look like just goto the SubMersive thread in the subwoofer forum. There you will see some charts and comments posted by Craig.


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## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Franin,
> 
> One of the guys who helped with the setup had a Velodyne SMS-1 that he was not using so I bought it from him for a great price. I will try and take some pictures of the surrounds at some point. If you are interested in what we did and what the charts look like just goto the SubMersive thread in the subwoofer forum. There you will see some charts and comments posted by Craig.



Cool.


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## MIkeDuke

Since this is my system thread, I am going to post the results here as well.

From Craig:

Last weekend, another forum member, DMark1, and I went to MikeDuke's house and helped him install some new surrounds. He had recently acquired some Focal Chorus 705v's to replace his older Polk surrounds. We got them installed, and then went to work on the *real* problem.

Mike's been having an issue with the Submersive occasionally shutting down in "protect" mode while listening to some content with extremely deep bass. Mark Seaton had theorized that the problem was being caused by Audyssey boosting the deepest bass through it's level normalization process. This post in the Audyssey thread explains the issue with graphs showing the boost:
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16982682

Mike has a big peak in his room at about 40 Hz:








Mark S. theorized that the Audyssey level setting algorithm was being overly influenced by the level of that big peak, and was using too high an "average" level pre-Audyssey, thereby causing the level to be boosted across the board post-Audyssey. This would result in a significant boost of the infrasonics as described in the post linked above.

Mark's thought was that using an external EQ to knock down the peak pre-Audyssey would allow Audyssey to "normalize" the volume without as much boost down low, and eliminate the problem. Therefore, the first thing we did was to install an SMS-1, and set some parametric EQ filters to reduce the peak. It took 3 bands with very narrow Q's, and 9 to 12 dB of cut to eliminate the huge peak:








Sidenote: In the upper right corner, you can see the "time" response of the system. The very bright red and yellow in the middle of the first plot represents the very large resonance of these frequencies in the range of the large frequency peak at 40 Hz. Note how much that resonance is reduced in the second plot by reducing the magnitude response with EQ.)

We then ran Audyssey XT32 in Mike's Integra DHC 80.2. The first thing it does is set the level of the subwoofer with a bass pink noise signal. There was a huge difference from the prior setting. With the gain setting on the Submersive at -24, Audyssey read a level of 85 dB. Previously, I had to set the gain as low as it would go to get a level of 85 dB. Clearly cutting the peak was helping. After running Audyssey, the subwoofer level was set to -7, so I knew we were in the right ball park!

We then put in the offending content: War of the Worlds. We skipped to the scene just after the "Pods Emerge" where Tom Cruise commandeers the minivan. As they're driving away, the pods are blowing up a bridge behind them. A truck is blown off the bridge and falls onto a house. That particular scene has consistently shut down Mike's Submersive. Unfortunately, it did so again, even after all our efforts.

Hmmm...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

After a lot of brainstorming we decided to try moving the sub out of the back corner. DMark had the brilliant idea of moving it up to mid-wall on the right side below the window. We had to re-arrange Mike's DVD racks and take a chair out of the room to do this, but it worked. In fact, Mike and his other family members thought the room looked better with this rearrangement. In this arrangement, I was able to set the Submersive level to -20 and still get an SPL of 83 dB.

We then re-ran Audyssey. The subwoofer level was again set to -7 in the Integra. We then re-listened to the same scene... with the exact same result. The Submersive still shut down at exactly the same point.

Hmmmm... scratch'ing head...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The only option left was to insert a subsonic filter to remove the offending content. The SMS-1 allows the user adjust the subsonic filter in 1 Hz increments from 20 Hz down to 1 Hz in 1 Hz increments. It also allows the user to select the slope of the the filter in 6 dB/octave increments from 6 dB to 48 db per octave. So we set about trying different combinations of filters. We started with a 24 dB/octave filter at 20 Hz. No shutdown of the Submersive... Yeah!!!

We then sequentially moved the filter lower while trying different slopes. We ended up with a 12 Hz, 48 dB/octave subsonic filter. With that filter in place, we did not shut down the sub, and none of use could sense any diminution of the bass output.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

After all that, we re-measured the system. The following graph shows the response of the Submersive by itself, (green trace), and the speakers by themselves, (cyan trace.)









The sub is incredibly flat from 16 Hz to above the crossover. The speakers are reasonably flat from the crossover up.

The following graph shows the combined response of the speakers and sub playing together, (violet trace.) There is some interaction of the speakers and sub around the crossover:








However, if you go back up to the original "native" response vs. the response after the addition of the SMS-1 and Audyssey, the improvement is astonishing. We played around with slight modifications of the "Distance" setting of the subwoofer, but we weren't able to improve the response around the crossover point. We left it were Audyssey set it. (To clarify, the addition of the SMS-1 added about 4.2 ft. to the Distance setting. The previous setting was 7.0 ft. The setting after adding the SMS-1 was 11.2 ft. The extra "distance" accounted for the latency of the SMS-1.)

Mike has spent some time listening to his system since we did this and I will let him jump in and post his impressions of the new "sound."

Craig


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## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/20228063
> 
> 
> That's great you guys got it sorted out. I'm glad to read that all the changes made improvements in SQ as well.
> 
> 
> Please post pics of the new surrounds as well when you have the time to take some pics.
> 
> 
> You've inspired me to add some room treatments to my room as well. Hopefully I will have some installed in the up and coming months.
> 
> 
> Thank you again for always helping me out and taking the time to provide awesome feedback! Its greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Claude



No problem Claude. Always glad to help where I can. I will keep checking your thread to see any treatments you get and what you think of them. If I get time, I will take some pictures of the surrounds and post them.


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## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since this is my system thread, I am going to post the results here as well.
> 
> 
> From Craig:
> 
> 
> Last weekend, another forum member, DMark1, and I went to MikeDuke's house and helped him install some new surrounds. He had recently acquired some Focal Chorus 705v's to replace his older Polk surrounds. We got them installed, and then went to work on the *real* problem.
> 
> 
> Mike's been having an issue with the Submersive occasionally shutting down in "protect" mode while listening to some content with extremely deep bass. Mark Seaton had theorized that the problem was being caused by Audyssey boosting the deepest bass through it's level normalization process. This post in the Audyssey thread explains the issue with graphs showing the boost:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16982682
> 
> 
> Mike has a big peak in his room at about 40 Hz:
> 
> 
> Mark S. theorized that the Audyssey level setting algorithm was being overly influenced by the level of that big peak, and was using too high an "average" level pre-Audyssey, thereby causing the level to be boosted across the board post-Audyssey. This would result in a significant boost of the infrasonics as described in the post linked above.
> 
> 
> Mark's thought was that using an external EQ to knock down the peak pre-Audyssey would allow Audyssey to "normalize" the volume without as much boost down low, and eliminate the problem. Therefore, the first thing we did was to install an SMS-1, and set some parametric EQ filters to reduce the peak. It took 3 bands with very narrow Q's, and 9 to 12 dB of cut to eliminate the huge peak:
> 
> 
> Sidenote: In the upper right corner, you can see the "time" response of the system. The very bright red and yellow in the middle of the first plot represents the very large resonance of these frequencies in the range of the large frequency peak at 40 Hz. Note how much that resonance is reduced in the second plot by reducing the magnitude response with EQ.)
> 
> 
> We then ran Audyssey XT32 in Mike's Integra DHC 80.2. The first thing it does is set the level of the subwoofer with a bass pink noise signal. There was a huge difference from the prior setting. With the gain setting on the Submersive at -24, Audyssey read a level of 85 dB. Previously, I had to set the gain as low as it would go to get a level of 85 dB. Clearly cutting the peak was helping. After running Audyssey, the subwoofer level was set to -7, so I knew we were in the right ball park!
> 
> 
> We then put in the offending content: War of the Worlds. We skipped to the scene just after the "Pods Emerge" where Tom Cruise commandeers the minivan. As they're driving away, the pods are blowing up a bridge behind them. A truck is blown off the bridge and falls onto a house. That particular scene has consistently shut down Mike's Submersive. Unfortunately, it did so again, even after all our efforts.
> 
> 
> Hmmm...
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> After a lot of brainstorming we decided to try moving the sub out of the back corner. DMark had the brilliant idea of moving it up to mid-wall on the right side below the window. We had to re-arrange Mike's DVD racks and take a chair out of the room to do this, but it worked. In fact, Mike and his other family members thought the room looked better with this rearrangement. In this arrangement, I was able to set the Submersive level to -20 and still get an SPL of 83 dB.
> 
> 
> We then re-ran Audyssey. The subwoofer level was again set to -7 in the Integra. We then re-listened to the same scene... with the exact same result. The Submersive still shut down at exactly the same point.
> 
> 
> Hmmmm... scratch'ing head...
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> The only option left was to insert a subsonic filter to remove the offending content. The SMS-1 allows the user adjust the subsonic filter in 1 Hz increments from 20 Hz down to 1 Hz in 1 Hz increments. It also allows the user to select the slope of the the filter in 6 dB/octave increments from 6 dB to 48 db per octave. So we set about trying different combinations of filters. We started with a 24 dB/octave filter at 20 Hz. No shutdown of the Submersive... Yeah!!!
> 
> 
> We then sequentially moved the filter lower while trying different slopes. We ended up with a 12 Hz, 48 dB/octave subsonic filter. With that filter in place, we did not shut down the sub, and none of use could sense any diminution of the bass output.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> After all that, we re-measured the system. The following graph shows the response of the Submersive by itself, (green trace), and the speakers by themselves, (cyan trace.)
> 
> 
> The sub is incredibly flat from 16 Hz to above the crossover. The speakers are reasonably flat from the crossover up.
> 
> 
> The following graph shows the combined response of the speakers and sub playing together, (violet trace.) There is some interaction of the speakers and sub around the crossover:
> 
> 
> However, if you go back up to the original "native" response vs. the response after the addition of the SMS-1 and Audyssey, the improvement is astonishing. We played around with slight modifications of the "Distance" setting of the subwoofer, but we weren't able to improve the response around the crossover point. We left it were Audyssey set it. (To clarify, the addition of the SMS-1 added about 4.2 ft. to the Distance setting. The previous setting was 7.0 ft. The setting after adding the SMS-1 was 11.2 ft. The extra "distance" accounted for the latency of the SMS-1.)
> 
> 
> Mike has spent some time listening to his system since we did this and I will let him jump in and post his impressions of the new "sound."
> 
> 
> Craig



Hey mike I quickly read what happened I'm on my iPhone I will look at the graphs tonight but what an amazing story.


----------



## Franin

So mike were you impressed with the new sounds?


----------



## MIkeDuke

Yep. They are much better then my old Polks. Every movie really sounds so much better. When things pan from back to front and front to back it really sounds about as seamless as I can imgaine. For ex, cars, planes or gunfire sound better now then before. Sometimes I am even turning arround now to see what that sound was. Plus, if there is movement or ambient sound or voices they sound better and much clearer then before. Matching "Be" surrounds would probably be even better but this was a good move for me.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20248855
> 
> 
> Yep. They are much better then my old Polks. Every movie really sounds so much better. When things pan from back to front and front to back it really sounds about as seamless as I can imgaine. For ex, cars, planes or gunfire sound better now then before. Sometimes I am even turning arround now to see what that sound was. Plus, if there is movement or ambient sound or voices they sound better and much clearer then before. Matching "Be" surrounds would probably be even better but this was a good move for me.



It's good to hear mike, though I don't think the matching " BE " will show that much difference especially being surrounds.


----------



## MIkeDuke

If I had a bigger room I am sure the bipole or dipole nature of the SR1000 surround speaker would prove itself effective. But, since my room is small, and the size of the "Be" bookshelf speaker were too large for where they had to go, Chorus was the answer. Again, I think having the EQ really helped in matching up the sound of the speakers to the fronts stage. Plus, the SMS-1 EQ really has helped also. The bass sounds fantastic now from the SubMersive. Yea, I am a happy camper.


----------



## MIkeDuke

One of the next steps for me will be a pair of these
http://www.la-z-boy.com/Product/12-3...mall-Recliner/ 

I know they are only Lazy Boy but what can you do. Stuff from Berkline, Acoustic Innovation, Cinematech and Acoustic Smart were just too big for my space. I sat in a Lazy Boy and it was comfy. Plus I am getting them in some of the higher grade leather so they won't be cheap. I have enough for one so all I need to do is save for a second one.,


In addition, I will be replacing my Monster Power conditioner for something by Audience. I think this will also be a nice upgrade as well.


----------



## Bunga99

That’s some awesome upgrade with the furniture Mike!


I would not knock La-Z-boy in the least. About 7 months ago, the wife and I went to 5 different furniture stores in 2 week period trying to replace our recliners with some other recliners or movie theater type seating. We spent about 11-12hrs of sitting in many different chairs. Some of the furniture stores were mediocre (Ashley Furniture) some were fairly high end mom and pop shops. It may not look it but my current recliners are extremely comfortable so we could not find anything to match its comfort until we went to a store that sold La-z-boys. I’m not sure if your model does it but some of the current La-z-boy recliners have this feature where the leg extends up in 3 different positions and locks there until you decide to change it by pulling on the handle/lever and the back reclines independent from the legs. We loved those features! Plus the La-z-boys were the only chairs we found as comfy as our old recliners. We were dead set on buying 3 of them for our place and went home to think it over and decide on the color and fabric we would get. The only reason we decided to get new recliners were two of the three we owned had issues when reclining but I guess that is expected after 6 years of useage. I decided to try and fix them myself a bit so I could sell them real cheap on craigslist before we got our La-z-boys. Turns out my little attempt to fix them worked fairly well so we just decided to keep them. I’m glad I was able to fix them but was surprised how comfortable the La-z-boys were and how cool those feature were. Most of the mechanisms of the La-z-boy recliner parts seemed to be really well thought out and constructed compared to others we looked at. I think you will extremely happy with La-z-boy.


----------



## Franin

Happy Easter Mike. I hope the Easter Bunny brings those La-z-boy for you.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks guys. Happy easter to you also. I ordred two yesterday. They should be ready in about six weeks. I went to Raymore and Flanigan, Ashley and Dane Decor. The Lazy boy were the most comfortable one I sat it. Plus the size is perfect for my room. Everything else was way too big a "puffy" for what I needed. I got the middle of the pack leather so it is going to be very nice I think. That also raised the price quite a bit but it was worth it. Those don't have different positions for the legs but that is OK. When it reclines it is very comfortable. Plus I got the wall a way option so I can put it 4 inches from the wall and have it fully recline. I will take some pictures when I get them.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Next Wed hopefully will be a happy day







.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Next Wed hopefully will be a happy day
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Good stuff Mike looking forward in seeing the pics.


I'm waiting for my pre amp to go for upgrades before I change mine. Get everything done that's needed to be done while the pre amp goes for it's upgrade.


----------



## MIkeDuke

For those following along, I got the chairs, but they were the wrong model. The salesman messed up and put the wrong number on the sheet. So now, I have to wait another three months to get the correct chairs. It also turns out this guy gave me a much bigger discount on the chairs then I should have recived. But in the end the prices are a wash so that is good news. This is the third time the sales man messed up so he may be in trouble after this one. They will let me keep the ones they sent until my chairs come in. So, back to the waiting game.


----------



## Franin

Quote:

Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*
For those following along, I got the chairs, but they were the wrong model. The salesman messed up and put the wrong number on the sheet. So now, I have to wait another three months to get the correct chairs. It also turns out this guy gave me a much bigger discount on the chairs then I should have recived. But in the end the prices are a wash so that is good news. This is the third time the sales man messed up so he may be in trouble after this one. They will let me keep the ones they sent until my chairs come in. So, back to the waiting game.
That's very annoying Mike 3 months!! I wonder if that salesman will have a job after that mess up? least they let you keep the ones they sent you for the time being.


----------



## pcweber111

Bummer about the chairs. I hope this isn't indicative of the service the company provides or else they need to be more careful in who they hire.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I know, it's kind of disappointing. It seems sometimes that quality assurance or just being accurate has gone out the window. But, I will live







. I am taking the Zen approach that these things happen, especially when people are involved. As long as they correct it, I will be happy.

This is what I ordered, only in brown, not black
http://www.furniture.co.nz/products/...oy/harbortown/


----------



## Bunga99

Looks Awesome Mike!


Which ones did they drop off that you are currently using in the meantime?



Also a while back we chatted about the foot reclining feature, looks like your new one might have it. I took this from the link you posted










I loved this feature.


Quote:

Exclusive features such as the patented La-Z-Boy mechanism, adjustable reclining tension, *secure three position footrest* and many other features make La-Z-Boy the only choice in reclining comfort.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Bunga99* 
Looks Awesome Mike!


Which ones did they drop off that you are currently using in the meantime?



Also a while back we chatted about the foot reclining feature, looks like your new one might have it. I took this from the link you posted










I loved this feature.
They shipped these instead.
http://www.plazahouse.com/index.php/...ialto-recliner 

I think they are a bit soft because my back hurts a bit after sitting in them for a few days. I think these new ones will look better and feel better. Too bad I have to wait another three months though







. When I finally get the right ones I will share my thoughts.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. I had some issues that I thought were cable related. So, I bought new speaker cables and balanced interconnects just to be sure. They sent the correct speaker cables but for the amp they sent rca, not balanced. So I have to wait a bit longer for them. BUT, the speaker cable did the trick. Now my system sounds fantastic. So I just have to wait for the other cables and get my the newer SubMersive amp Mark sent me installed and I will be good to go. I am also glad that my TV was fixed with as little pain as possible.


----------



## Raymond Leggs

Why you choose focal JMLAB speaker? did you listen to Proac Tablette or KEF Q series also?


----------



## MIkeDuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Raymond Leggs* 
Why you choose focal JMLAB speaker? did you listen to Proac Tablette or KEF Q series also?
Years ago I met an audio advisor who worked at one store. Then he moved to another store and I followed him. At that store they sold Wilson Audio, B&W, JM Labs and Dynaudio. I really found myself spending more and more time in the JM room. I started going to that store in about 2002 or 2003. During that time I went every Sat and spent about 3 to hours just listening to their stuff. After enough times I realized that it was time to upgrade. To me, the JM's were the best they had. I found out that they were making an special edition speaker so I bought that in 2004. It was a mighty fine speaker. Then, a few years later I had the chance to upgrade to the 1027's so I jumped at the chance.


I have heard other speakers since then but to be honest, at the price I paid, there are not too many speakers I would trade mine for. I have heard how great they can sound with really good gear so I really don't feel the need to look any further at this time. I can't say how good the Proacs or KEF's are since I have never heard them. But as I said, I am very happy with what I have and don't see me changing them for a long time.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Well, the issue I thought was cable related came back, but only in reverse. Instead of the left channel playing lower it is now playing louder. I just don't get it. I am still waiting on the balanced interconnects so I will see what happens with that. But if that does not fix it, then I am really lost on what to do. I already established that it is not the speaker because when it was lower and I moved the speakers, it did not follow with the speaker. My Bryston is not showing any signals that it is the problem and I have heard of one side getting louder all of a sudden. We shall see.


----------



## drewTT

Maybe a silly questions but is there any difference between the Focal and JM Lab version of the speakers? One "cheaper" then the other? Love the design of them.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by *drewTT* 
Maybe a silly questions but is there any difference between the Focal and JM Lab version of the speakers? One "cheaper" then the other? Love the design of them.
No, they are the same speaker company. The original name for the company was Focal JM Labs , But now I think they just like to go by Focal. I go back and forth sometimes without realizing it.


----------



## Bunga99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20718118
> 
> 
> Well, the issue I thought was cable related came back, but only in reverse. Instead of the left channel playing lower it is now playing louder. I just don't get it. I am still waiting on the balanced interconnects so I will see what happens with that. But if that does not fix it, then I am really lost on what to do. I already established that it is not the speaker because when it was lower and I moved the speakers, it did not follow with the speaker. My Bryston is not showing any signals that it is the problem and I have heard of one side getting louder all of a sudden. We shall see.



Sorry to hear that Mike!

It seems that you might have ruled out the speaker. Is it possible for you to swap the left cable and right cable to see if that makes a difference? I guess if the problem follows the cable then its probably the cable.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, the issue I thought was cable related came back, but only in reverse. Instead of the left channel playing lower it is now playing louder. I just don't get it. I am still waiting on the balanced interconnects so I will see what happens with that. But if that does not fix it, then I am really lost on what to do. I already established that it is not the speaker because when it was lower and I moved the speakers, it did not follow with the speaker. My Bryston is not showing any signals that it is the problem and I have heard of one side getting louder all of a sudden. We shall see.



What's happening their Mike with the left increasing in volume? Do you have your balanced cables yet?


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/20721456
> 
> 
> What's happening their Mike with the left increasing in volume? Do you have your balanced cables yet?



I have no idea what the heck is going on Frank. No, I don't have the balanced cables yet. I still need to wait for them to be delivered to my dealer and then I have have my dealer come by and install them. But, he is going through some pretty heavy personal issues and then to take a break from it all he may be going away so I don't know when we can work it out. I can tell you that it still sounds louder but with me setting the level equal on my own, the speakers sound scary good now. I just hope it is the cables otherwise it is the amp or the preamp. That is something I don't want to even think about.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what the heck is going on Frank. No, I don't have the balanced cables yet. I still need to wait for them to be delivered to my dealer and then I have have my dealer come by and install them. But, he is going through some pretty heavy personal issues and then to take a break from it all he may be going away so I don't know when we can work it out. I can tell you that it still sounds louder but with me setting the level equal on my own, the speakers sound scary good now. I just hope it is the cables otherwise it is the amp or the preamp. That is something I don't want to even think about.



I agree you don't want it to be a pre amp or power amp. Have you thought of trying a set of balance cable on the cheap while waiting for the ones on order? I did that whilst waiting for my cables, too be honest it wasn't too bad. If I didn't order the other cables I would of stuck with them.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/20721826
> 
> 
> I agree you don't want it to be a pre amp or power amp. Have you thought of trying a set of balance cable on the cheap while waiting for the ones on order? I did that whilst waiting for my cables, too be honest it wasn't too bad. If I didn't order the other cables I would of stuck with them.



I can't change them on my own so if I bought new ones I would just have to wait anyway for some help. I might as well just hang on and when it gets done it gets done. At least I know it is not the speakers or the speaker cable so that's two things I can be sure of.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I can't change them on my own so if I bought new ones I would just have to wait anyway for some help. I might as well just hang on and when it gets done it gets done. At least I know it is not the speakers or the speaker cable so that's two things I can be sure of.



Well Im curious to know what is the cause. Keep us posted Mike.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/20722264
> 
> 
> Well Im curious to know what is the cause. Keep us posted Mike.



Will do. I am curious myself







.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Well, the cables came in







. My dealer is going to try and swing by tomorrow and replace them real quick. Let's see what happens now







.


----------



## Franin

Great news about the cables Mike. It will be interesting to see what the cause was of your volume increase in your speaker.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/20726395
> 
> 
> Great news about the cables Mike. It will be interesting to see what the cause was of your volume increase in your speaker.



My thoughts are this. I already verified that it was not the speakers and after tomorrow I will have all new cables so that should take them out of the equation. That means if it happens again it has to be the amp or preamp. At least that's my thinking. Hopefully this does it.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Brytson thinks it's the amp and I need to send it in for repair







. That would really stink, but it is probably what I have to do.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Brytson thinks it's the amp and I need to send it in for repair
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . That would really stink, but it is probably what I have to do.



That's no good.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Yea, I know. I guess I can only wish really hard the the cables do it. I am not worried about paying for it. Bryston has a 20 year warranty and I have pleanty of time left. It's just the pain of getting the amp out and to them and then having a system with no left and right speakers for who knows how long.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. Here is an update. I had the cables installed, but they were not the issue. I plead the 5th on what the issue was







. But all is OK now. I am getting a new amp for my sub installed tonight and I should be good to go after that. Then I all need are my correct chairs and I should good to go for major upgrades until the end of the year.


----------



## Bunga99

Awesome Mike!


Do you plan to re-run Auydessy with the new HP Amp installed? There's a possibility you may need to.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Yea. That is the plan. Craig is coming over tonight to help me install the amp. The only issue is that when I get the chairs I am supposed to have, they will allow me to be more in the center sweet spot so I will have to run it _again_. But at least I know I will be %100 working.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I am back in buisness again







. We replaced the SubMersive amp. The scenes that were giving me a problem are giving me a problem no more







. Now all I need are my correct chairs and then I will be set.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am back in buisness again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . We replaced the SubMersive amp. The scenes that were giving me a problem are giving me a problem no more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Now all I need are my correct chairs and then I will be set.



Good to see it all worked out well Mike.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Frank. Yea. It's a relief I can tell you. Now I can back to watching movies and listening to music without any hesitation.


----------



## Bunga99

Glad you guys got it all sorted out Mike!


----------



## MIkeDuke

Yep. It's a good thing for sure to know that I can go to -10 and have no fear. Well, no fear of anything going wrong that is. Fear of the room and just overall fear of what this sub can do is an entirely different matter







.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20745737
> 
> 
> Fear of the room and just overall fear of what this sub can do is an entirely different matter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Before you watch a movie Mike organise some maintenance guys for the next day just in case the subs do structural damage.


----------



## MIkeDuke

What is interesting is that when I ran it at -10db we played WOTW and HTTYD. But, there was someone else in the house downstairs. I asked "how bad was that?" The reply I got was, "not so bad". Needless to say I was surprised. We shall see what happens in the future but it does seem that I can turn it up louder without strain in the room. Can't wait to get the right chairs. Way down the road, I am wondering if should replace my Bryston amps with a single amp. I am tying to cut down on the heat in the room. I can either look for an ICE amp, or maybe something from Parasound. I know they are class A/AB and they get a bit warm but I am thinking that even with that, it still may be better then the two ovens, I mean Bryston's I have now, But that is for a later date. Right now I am enjoying my system.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is interesting is that when I ran it at -10db we played WOTW and HTTYD. But, there was someone else in the house downstairs. I asked "how bad was that?" The reply I got was, "not so bad". Needless to say I was surprised. We shall see what happens in the future but it does seem that I can turn it up louder without strain in the room. Can't wait to get the right chairs. Way down the road, I am wondering if should replace my Bryston amps with a single amp. I am tying to cut down on the heat in the room. I can either look for an ICE amp, or maybe something from Parasound. I know they are class A/AB and they get a bit warm but I am thinking that even with that, it still may be better then the two ovens, I mean Bryston's I have now, But that is for a later date. Right now I am enjoying my system.



That's good news the house will be able to handle more power. Do your neighbours hear it?


I think you should sit back and enjoy your system. Once your proper chairs arrive just enjoy.


----------



## MIkeDuke

The plan is to get the new chairs, recline them







, and just enjoy







. I really like how it sounds and looks even though the TV is 42in







.


----------



## craig john

Quote:

Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* 
What is interesting is that when I ran it at -10db we played WOTW and HTTYD. But, there was someone else in the house downstairs. I asked "how bad was that?" The reply I got was, "not so bad". Needless to say I was surprised. We shall see what happens in the future but it does seem that I can turn it up louder without strain in the room. Can't wait to get the right chairs. Way down the road, I am wondering if should replace my Bryston amps with a single amp. I am tying to cut down on the heat in the room. I can either look for an ICE amp, or maybe something from Parasound. I know they are class A/AB and they get a bit warm but I am thinking that even with that, it still may be better then the two ovens, I mean Bryston's I have now, But that is for a later date. Right now I am enjoying my system.
Hi Mike,


It was good to see you the other night. The system did sound excellent after we installed the new Submersive HP amp and re-ran Audyssey. I'm glad everything is back in working order.







Let's hope it stays that way!


Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by *craig john* 
Hi Mike,


It was good to see you the other night. The system did sound excellent after we installed the new Submersive HP amp and re-ran Audyssey. I'm glad everything is back in working order.







Let's hope it stays that way!


Craig
Thanks Craig







. I need to look for Gremlin traps on eBay







. If you find any, please let me know. Can't wait to check out your system. But I have to say that after we re-ran Audyssey, I really like the sound I am getting now. Just waiting on the chairs. Over the weekend I will change the setting on the amp and see what happens. Then I will report back to Mark. But I can't wait to be able to watch HTTYD all the way through now. I am also going to leave that dynamic volume?, is that what it was, off for now. I want to watch a few movies like that. Then I will switch it on and see what happens. But thanks again. I really mean it. I would not be able to do any of the new things I have been trying without your help or Dennis' for that matter. After I watch a few more movies I may post some more thoughts.


----------



## Franin

Hi Mike I watched the book of Eli last night and I noticed in some scenes i was hearing a buzzing sound coming out of my left 1027BE speaker. At first I thought it was the tweeter then I noticed its the speaker above the tweeter. I put on the DVE disk and did the frequencey sweep fo 30hz to 22khz and noticed at 300hz I hear the buzz coming out of the left speaker. Any thought what that could be?


I will also post this on the focal thread.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Just saw this post now. As you can see, we have been talking in the Focal thread.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just saw this post now. As you can see, we have been talking in the Focal thread.



Yes I posted here first. But Im glad its all sorted know. Cheers.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Tomorrow+chairs=







.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Tomorrow+chairs=
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Fantastic news Mike!! Looking forward to the pics.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/20804449
> 
> 
> Fantastic news Mike!! Looking forward to the pics.



Thanks Frank. I will do my best to get some pics this weekend. Again,they are not "traditional" HT chairs but who cares







. They fit my room, the price was not TOO bad, and they are comfy.


Also, I like to go my own way anyway







.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Frank. I will do my best to get some pics this weekend. Again,they are not "traditional" HT chairs but who cares
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . They fit my room, the price was not TOO bad, and they are comfy.
> 
> 
> Also, I like to go my own way anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



exactly why would you go any other way. Mate you have an awesome setup and you need the right comfort that suits you to enjoy that setup. When it comes to chairs and a few other things in home theatre there is no right or wrong way. Id love to get new chairs, hopefully later this year or next. I have formal lounge chairs made in italy which are not traditional ht chairs and they kill my ht chairs for comfort. Ive begged my wife if i can have them and refuses. Theyre white ( still matches my room, screen is white







) and are very comfortable.


Looking forward in seeing the pics mike.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Frank for the nice words. I have done my best and I am really happy with how the room looks(TV) and sounds. Although a 100+ inch screen wouldn't hurt either







. I have seen other chairs that look bad ass. And ones that are more traditional. But I know I will be happy with these. It'snot like these were cheap either. I got the higher grade leather so they should still feel great. When I was at the store, these were the ones I always went back to. Plus, I did have to be realistic about their size. The ones I have now, the wrong ones really opened the room up. These being smaller should open the room even more. These are the measurements of the ones I have now(H: 41" x W: 32" x D: 37). These are the measurements of the ones I am getting today(H: 40" x W: 28.5" x D: 35"). So you can see the difference. Plus, after I bought them I realized that the one cloth recliner I have is probably a Harbor Town as well. Just not in leather. Pics to follow.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Well, I got my chairs. The correct chairs







. They are much better then the ones they are replacing. They are more compact so the look nicer and open the room up even more. Plus, they are very comfortable. I will try and take some pics this weekend.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20807870
> 
> 
> Well, I got my chairs. The correct chairs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . They are much better then the ones they are replacing. They are more compact so the look nicer and open the room up even more. Plus, they are very comfortable. I will try and take some pics this weekend.



That's great, Mike! Looking forward to the pictures.


Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/20808029
> 
> 
> That's great, Mike! Looking forward to the pictures.
> 
> 
> Craig



Yep, I am good to go. I centered my seat but that really pushed the other one over. I haven't watched a movie or listened to music yet. Just TV. Probably Fri and this weekend. When you come over, maybe we can experiment on seating positions to see if I can move them back out and still get a nice sound stage after we do the EQ. I will let you see where the seats are and then you can let me know what you think. How does that sound.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20808104
> 
> 
> Yep, I am good to go. I centered my seat but that really pushed the other one over. I haven't watched a movie or listened to music yet. Just TV. Probably Fri and this weekend. When you come over, maybe we can experiment on seating positions to see if I can move them back out and still get a nice sound stage after we do the EQ. I will let you see where the seats are and then you can let me know what you think. How does that sound.



If it were my system, I would place the primary seat directly in front of the CC and the middle of the display. That would put the primary seat equidistant from the L/R's and the surrounds. It's also the point I used for the first Audyssey measurement, so the levels and distances are set for that precise spot. Then the other chair would just go wherever it goes.










Craig


----------



## Bunga99

Awesome stuff Mike!


Did you happen to notice if the new chairs have the 3 position footrest feature? I think you will have to slowly pull the handle/lever till you hear it click for each position. If so, how do you like that feature?


Can wait to see the pics too


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/20810677
> 
> 
> Awesome stuff Mike!
> 
> 
> Did you happen to notice if the new chairs have the 3 position footrest feature? I think you will have to slowly pull the handle/lever till you hear it click for each position. If so, how do you like that feature?
> 
> 
> Can wait to see the pics too



Thanks. These are really nice to sit in. Lazy boy makes good stuff. Plus the size is perfect. Also, the pics on their website to don't do it justice. They look fantastic in person. I will check to see about foot rest. For me, the most confortable is all the way up so I just go right to that spot. But I will check it out. If not, it is not a deal breaker at all because I like them very much as they are. Pics this weekend.


----------



## Bunga99

Being very comfortable, having high quality sound and a fantastic picture, what more can anyone of us ask for (other than a cold beverage)










cant wait to see the pics.


----------



## MIkeDuke

So I tried what you were asking. I could only get them to stop in 2 positions. One slightly raised but still on an angle down, and one fully extended. I liked the feel of the fully extended one better so that is what I will continue to use.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Pics of the chairs

I have sat in the for a while now. They are very comfortable. I just realized that you can sort of slide them
forward so you are even more reclined. I like that position now as it allows me to get my head in better line with with the TV.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Here are some more


----------



## craig john

Those look really nice, Mike! Did the sound change much, or at all? Is the primary chair in the middle of the room, symmetric to the L/R's?


Craig


----------



## Bunga99

WOW!!


They look fantastic Mike! Great Choice!










Had a quick question, what the purple Kleenex box looking thing next to the SubMersive Hp?


----------



## MIkeDuke

Again, I will say that I know they are not the more traditional looking HT chairs but I like them a lot.

Craig, the primary seat is as centered as I can possibly get it. If it is off, it is not off by much. When I get back from Florida we should try and setup a time for you and Dennis to swing by. I have watched TV, and listened to some music and maybe watched a movie. What I have watched so far really has not been dynamic or exciting yet. So I don't know if effected the bass in any way. But it did not get worse. When I get a chance I will watch a real movie and see if I notice anything. I will say that my system has never sounded better. For music, I can say that now that I am in the center more the soundstage is fantastic. It really sounds like my center channel is on during straight 2ch bypass. Sometimes I just have to shake my head.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Claude. Those purple boxes are yoga blocks. I use them to help me strecth my ankles. They really are great chairs. To be honest, anything much bigger really would have looked silly in the room plus I would not have been able to center my main chair as much as I can now.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20821599
> 
> 
> Again, I will say that I know they are not the more traditional looking HT chairs but I like the a lot.
> 
> Craig, the primary seat is as centered as I can possibly get it. If it is off, it is not off by much. When I get back from Florida we should try and setup a time for you and Dennis to swing buy. I have watched TV, and listened to some music and maybe watched a movie. What I have watched so far really has not been dynamic or exciting yet. So I don't know if effected the bass in any way. But it did not get worse. When I get a chance I will watch a real movie and see if I notice anything. I will say that my system has never sounded better. For music, I can say that now that I am in the center more the soundstage is fantastic. It really sounds like my center channel is on during straight 2ch bypass. Sometimes I just have to shake my head.













Craig


----------



## Bunga99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20821607
> 
> 
> Thanks Claude. Those purple boxes are yoga blocks. I use them to help me strecth my ankles. They really are great chairs. To be honest, anything much bigger really would have looked silly in the room plus I would not have been able to center my main chair as much as I can now.



Awesome Mike! I was more curious to see if it had something to do with Audio. So let see..... Awesome gear, Awesome furniture, a ton of great movies and music and even Yoga! Sounds like there is no reason to ever leave that room other than to use the bathroom


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/20821921
> 
> 
> Awesome Mike! I was more curious to see if it had something to do with Audio. So let see..... Awesome gear, Awesome furniture, a ton of great movies and music and even Yoga! Sounds like there is no reason to ever leave that room other than to use the bathroom



Yea, it's kind of tough to leave it. But lucky for me the bathroom is right outside where my room is so the trip is not that far







.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK, I really hate to toot my own horn or say how good my system is but I can't help myself







. Last night I was listening to mostly music. But I had both my 2ch and 3ch amps on because I was not sure if I would listening all night and I wanted the option of just switching back quickly if I wanted to. So I put on a SACD first. I knew it was a 2ch SACD only. But when I started to play it I could have sworn the center channel was on. I mean I actually walked up and put my ear to it to make sure it was not playing and sure enough, it was not. The center stage I get now is simply amazing. Having the seat in the right spot really snapped it into place more then it ever has been. But it is not just on that SACD or just SACD's in general. On regular CD's I get the same thing. The center stage is just unreal. It sounds like the music and lyrics are coming from the center speaker and not just the left and right speakers. It is really spooky. I just thought I would share that.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK, I really hate to toot my own horn or say how good my system is but I can't help myself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Last night I was listening to mostly music. But I had both my 2ch and 3ch amps on because I was not sure if I would listening all night and I wanted the option of just switching back quickly if I wanted to. So I put on a SACD first. I knew it was a 2ch SACD only. But when I started to play it I could have sworn the center channel was on. I mean I actually walked up and put my ear to it to make sure it was not playing and sure enough, it was not. The center stage I get now is simply amazing. Having the seat in the right spot really snapped it into place more then it ever has been. But it is not just on that SACD or just SACD's in general. On regular CD's I get the same thing. The center stage is just unreal. It sounds like the music and lyrics are coming from the center speaker and not just the left and right speakers. It is really spooky. I just thought I would share that.



Nothing wrong with tooting your own horn







but its good to finally get there. A tip: leave it and enjoy dont mess with it because you can lose it.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/20827838
> 
> 
> Nothing wrong with tooting your own horn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but its good to finally get there. A tip: leave it and enjoy dont mess with it because you can lose it.



I plan on leaving it as is for a while. Maybe tonight or tomorrow I can watch a "real" movie. To be honest, we re ran Audyessy when Craig did the new amp, it sounded better then it has ever sounded. I am not sure I want to mess with it but I will probably watch something like The Dark Knight or Tron and see how it sounds.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I plan on leaving it as is for a while. Maybe tonight or tomorrow I can watch a "real" movie. To be honest, we re ran Audyessy when Craig did the new amp, it sounded better then it has ever sounded. I am not sure I want to mess with it but I will probably watch something like The Dark Knight or Tron and see how it sounds.



2 great films


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. I watched one of the biggies. TRON. I had the MV at -12 and left the SMS level at 12. Holy you know what. It was insane. It was one of the best sounding movies I have ever heard. Next, in a few weeks will be the other test, The Dark Knight. But as it stands now, I am not doing anything at all with the audio. Everything is staying as it is.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK. I watched one of the biggies. TRON. I had the MV at -12 and left the SMS level at 12. Holy you know what. It was insane.



I knew it would be.







Those Subs are awesome.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20827755
> 
> 
> OK, I really hate to toot my own horn or say how good my system is but I can't help myself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Last night I was listening to mostly music. But I had both my 2ch and 3ch amps on because I was not sure if I would listening all night and I wanted the option of just switching back quickly if I wanted to. So I put on a SACD first. I knew it was a 2ch SACD only. But when I started to play it I could have sworn the center channel was on. I mean I actually walked up and put my ear to it to make sure it was not playing and sure enough, it was not. The center stage I get now is simply amazing. Having the seat in the right spot really snapped it into place more then it ever has been. But it is not just on that SACD or just SACD's in general. On regular CD's I get the same thing. The center stage is just unreal. It sounds like the music and lyrics are coming from the center speaker and not just the left and right speakers. It is really spooky. I just thought I would share that.



Mike,


Do you remember the first time Dennis and I visited and repositioned your speakers to make them symmetrical to the room? We rearranged your racks to get the CC exactly in the middle, and the speakers exactly the same distance apart, and the same distances from the surrounding walls. At that time, with your previous seating, we were not able to get the main seat exactly into the sweet spot and perfectly centered on the CC, making it symmetrical to the LP. Now, with your new seats, and having the main seat placed exactly in the sweet spot, your imaging has "snapped into place." That's exactly what we were shooting for. I am very happy it has finally come to fruition!










It's been a fun process to help you get to where you are now. The question is... Where do we go from here???










Craig


----------



## Bunga99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20835572
> 
> 
> OK. I watched one of the biggies. TRON. I had the MV at -12 and left the SMS level at 12. Holy you know what. It was insane. It was one of the best sounding movies I have ever heard. Next, in a few weeks will be the other test, The Dark Knight. But as it stands now, I am not doing anything at all with the audio. Everything is staying as it is.



Awesome stuff Mike!


In terms of Bass, I wonder how much of this is your new leather seats, the new seat position and or the Tron Movie itself. A few weeks before I got the T8s and when my SubMersive was placed midwall, I had a conversation with Mark about not having the tactile feel I previously had when the SubMersive was placed nearfield (which was expected). I'm on a concrete slap/floor with pad and carpet over. Sure I could have turned the SubMersive up more but that would also make me localize the sub (in that location). I also was explaining to him that I was considering getting the T8s and which would allow for more Sub placement options. He suggested I talk to Jeff and get the newer sealed T8s for my room. I also mentioned that the wife and I have also been looking at different seats/chairs and that I was even thinking about doing a riser to get that tactile feel back. Mark suggested that Sub placement was key and a Riser may not help that much but he felt fabric types chairs do let some bass hz get absorbed while certain leather chairs will not have the same type of absorbtion properties as fabric/cloth/microfiber so you may have more of a tactile feel. I guess the next few movies you are familar with will give you more of an idea but regardless it sounds like you made the Best move getting those chairs (not only for comfort and looks but as Craig stated for better location)











There's been only one bad thing I read about leather chairs and thats about comb filtering http://www.realtraps.com/rfz.htm it's the last article at the bottom of the page if you are interested in reading it.


Oh yeah...forgot to mention, my tactile feel is back with the front Sub location


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/20835903
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> 
> Do you remember the first time Dennis and I visited and repositioned your speakers to make them symmetrical to the room? We rearranged your racks to get the CC exactly in the middle, and the speakers exactly the same distance apart, and the same distances from the surrounding walls. At that time, with your previous seating, we were not able to get the main seat exactly into the sweet spot and perfectly centered on the CC, making it symmetrical to the LP. Now, with your new seats, and having the main seat placed exactly in the sweet spot, your imaging has "snapped into place." That's exactly what we were shooting for. I am very happy it has finally come to fruition!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's been a fun process to help you get to where you are now. The question is... Where do we go from here???



Yes Craig, I do remember that. And I know you remember how apprehensive I was about doing it. You guys worked your ass off that day. I always knew placement was important for 2ch listening based on my experiences with moving my speakers a bit here and a bit there. And then I heard what treatments could do. But I did not realize that your own body position also made such a huge impact. Having you and Dennis over really has helped me so much in getting my room sounding better then I thought it could. Don't forget, it was also you guys who thought to angle the center up just a bit so it was not firing just strait ahead. That in itself made a huge change for the better. I know we have setup my system many many times. At least 3 or 4 times. This is the best it has EVER sounded. I don't know what we did last time that was different but this was the one. As too where we go from here, probably no where for a while. I may try some other things down the line but for now I am just going to enjoy my sound and my chairs.

Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/20836245
> 
> 
> Awesome stuff Mike!
> 
> 
> In terms of Bass, I wonder how much of this is your new leather seats, the new seat position and or the Tron Movie itself. A few weeks before I got the T8s and when my SubMersive was placed midwall, I had a conversation with Mark about not having the tactile feel I previously had when the SubMersive was placed nearfield (which was expected). I'm on a concrete slap/floor with pad and carpet over. Sure I could have turned the SubMersive up more but that would also make me localize the sub (in that location). I also was explaining to him that I was considering getting the T8s and which would allow for more Sub placement options. He suggested I talk to Jeff and get the newer sealed T8s for my room. I also mentioned that the wife and I have also been looking at different seats/chairs and that I was even thinking about doing a riser to get that tactile feel back. Mark suggested that Sub placement was key and a Riser may not help that much but he felt fabric types chairs do let some bass hz get absorbed while certain leather chairs will not have the same type of absorbtion properties as fabric/cloth/microfiber so you may have more of a tactile feel. I guess the next few movies you are familar with will give you more of an idea but regardless it sounds like you made the Best move getting those chairs (not only for comfort and looks but as Craig stated for better location)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's been only one bad thing I read about leather chairs and thats about comb filtering http://www.realtraps.com/rfz.htm it's the last article at the bottom of the page if you are interested in reading it.
> 
> 
> Oh yeah...forgot to mention, my tactile feel is back with the front Sub location



The next few movies will probably be the big bass monsters. In no particular order, The Dark Knight BR, Live Free Die Hard SD, Cloverfield SD, HTTYD BR WOTW BR. And maybe Transformers ROTF BR. I should be able to get a good feel, so to speak, on how the tactile effect may have changed. But my seats were still shaking a bit with TRON. You see, when Craig did the the last calibration, I had leather seats in my room. So that part is still the same. These are just not as puffy as the last one. So I don't know how much it will really change if I were to do it again. To be quite honest, I am afraid to do it again because I am afraid we won't get it sounding this good. So I am just going to leave it.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The next few movies will probably be the big bass monsters. In no particular order, The Dark Knight BR, Live Free Die Hard SD, Cloverfield SD, HTTYD BR WOTW BR. And maybe Transformers ROTF BR. I should be able to get a good feel, so to speak, on how the tactile effect may have changed. But my seats were still shaking a bit with TRON. You see, when Craig did the the last calibration, I had leather seats in my room. So that part is still the same. These are just not as puffy as the last one. So I don't know how much it will really change if I were to do it again. To be quite honest, I am afraid to do it again because I am afraid we won't get it sounding this good. So I am just going to leave it.



I have! but by saying that my pre amp is getting upgrades so I will have to go again if I decided to do it.


Mike if your happy and its putting a smile on your face when watching movies then leave it.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/20836718
> 
> 
> I have! but by saying that my pre amp is getting upgrades so I will have to go again if I decided to do it.
> 
> 
> Mike if your happy and its putting a smile on your face when watching movies then leave it.



I am happy. And the smile is most definitely there







. Like I said, I am not touching anything. Your Denon will be getting an upgrade? What sort of upgrades will it be getting. I can say that the Integra 80.2 has been so easy to work with and I have had zero problems with it.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20836813
> 
> 
> I am happy. And the smile is most definitely there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Like I said, I am not touching anything. Your Denon will be getting an upgrade? What sort of upgrades will it be getting. I can say that the Integra 80.2 has been so easy to work with and I have had zero problems with it.



Over here in Europe our Denons did not get the Audyssey pro but this upgrade we get the Pro + XT32 + Dts NEo X( The new one ) + 3D passthrough(Not really interested)+ Height and wide.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/20836872
> 
> 
> Over here in Europe our Denons did not get the Audyssey pro but this upgrade we get the *Pro + XT32* + Dts NEo X( The new one ) + 3D passthrough(Not really interested)+ Height and wide.



That will be a big plus. My Integra has XT32 but I have not had a pro install. The XT32 should really take your system to a whole other level.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20836921
> 
> 
> That will be a big plus. My Integra has XT32 but I have not had a pro install. The XT32 should really take your system to a whole other level.



Hey Mike how much are the Integra 80.2 (the pre amp)?


----------



## MIkeDuke

I think the U.S retail is something like $2300.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think the U.S retail is something like $2300.



There double the price over here.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Franin* 
There double the price over here.








Sorry to hear that. Was your Denon more than then that? If it is double the price, and your Denon still works, then maybe you should just upgrade it.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear that. Was your Denon more than then that? If it is double the price, and your Denon still works, then maybe you should just upgrade it.



Im going to upgrade it i was just curious to know the price. Thanks Mike


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/20860457
> 
> 
> Im going to upgrade it i was just curious to know the price. Thanks Mike



That's cool. I know that the Denon is a top flight preamp and it's great that you can upgrade it. I am very happy with the Integra and will probably keep it for a long time. It sounds great, works great, and does everything I need.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Just watched TDK. It sounded fantastic. Crystal clear and just plain great sounding. It was at -13db. Not strain, no ear ache, no distortion I could tell. I could have probably taken it to -10db but I just want to go with this level for a few more movies. I have to thank Craig again for the latest EQ he did. We will take some more measurements at some point to see if there are any other oustanding issues but I don't expect to find any. Plus the chairs are still quite comfy.


----------



## craig john

After everything you've been through with the sub amp and the bad speaker cable, it's good to hear you're back to thoroughly enjoying your system.










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

Oh yes I am Craig







. I am enjoying it very much. As I am sure you will really enjoy yours when you get your seats. Since my schedule is more flexible then yours, why don't you let me know when you and possibly Dennis will have time on a Sat to swing down. We can take some measurements, listen to some music and watch movies or clips. Just let me know.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I think if you are in this thread, and you have read it or you have seen my posts in the JM Labs(Focal) thread, you can tell that I am a big fan of their speakers. I was drawn to them from the very first time I heard them. I enjoyed them more the other speakers that were at the main store I went to. Those included B&W, Wilson, Dynaudio and Martin Logan. The JM Labs, whether it was the Utopia Be speakers, or the old Electra speakers was where I spent my time. When I had the chance to upgrade I went to the 927 be's. This was the first time a be tweeter was in a speaker other then a Utopia speaker. They were great speakers. I bought them without listening first. I knew I would love them so there was no need to listen to them. Then came the chance for me to get the 1027's at an unheard of price so I jumped on them. They are some of the best speakers I have listened to. For me, they just "do it". Everything I have done around them have made them sound better. In 2ch, no sub, they just fill the room with music. Don't be fooled by the fact they only have dual 6 1/2 in woofers in each speaker. They really are very solid in the bass department. But it's the entire package that makes them special to me. Given the price I spent, it would take a lot for me to change them. I found a nice video about Focal. I figured I would post it in here in case anybody wanted to see it.





It is a very nice video. I have a few things left to do. Some would call then tweaks but I have heard what one of them can do so it is on the list. But I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.


I also want to again, thank Craig for his help. We started talking and I was curious about doing some tests on my system. I said that I would really like to test my system but I could not. Craig said, "no problem, I will come over and help you out." I thought that was very generous of him. Through more discussions and visits,from him and Dennis, my system is the way it is now. It's also the reason it sounds stellar. So that's it for now. I know this was a long one and thanks if you made it this far







.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I know it's just me posting here but who cares







. I have been listening to a lot of records lately. I really like the sound of good clean vinyl through this system. It sounds so sweet and just pure. The turn table and cart just make the music apear in the room. The sound stage I can get is really amazing. But at the same time there is instrument placement in each speaker. I have a few tweaks in the future that will help me out even more but right now I am enjoying 2ch very much. Still a movie guy also though







. Don't let that fool you. X-Men First Class sounded awesome and I am looking forward to getting THOR.


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20947766
> 
> 
> I know it's just me posting here but who cares
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



I care Mike







I've always enjoyed your posts, and watching your system and room progress has be very interesting. You brought up a good point, vinyl listening in your room,..how is it with the SubM? Does it create problems with LF acoustical/mechanical feedback?


All the best


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20947766
> 
> 
> I know it's just me posting here but who cares
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I have been listening to a lot of records lately. I really like the sound of good clean vinyl through this system. It sounds so sweet and just pure. The turn table and cart just make the music apear in the room. The sound stage I can get is really amazing. But at the same time there is instrument placement in each speaker. I have a few tweaks in the future that will help me out even more but right now I am enjoying 2ch very much. Still a movie guy also though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Don't let that fool you. X-Men First Class sounded awesome and I am looking forward to getting THOR.



Hi Mike,


Good to hear you're enjoying your vinyl and your system.







Do you have anything on both vinyl and CD? If so, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on how the 2 different mediums portray the same content.


Keep on keepin' on, my friend.


Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/20951972
> 
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> 
> Good to hear you're enjoying your vinyl and your system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have anything on both vinyl and CD? If so, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on how the 2 different mediums portray the same content.
> 
> 
> Keep on keepin' on, my friend.
> 
> 
> Craig



Thanks Craig. Yea. I think I have a few. I have some Allman Brothers and AC/DC. I also have the SACD DSOTM and I have that on Vinyl. I also have "The Wall" on record and CD. So yea, I have a few tests I can do. Beyond that I just have the same Artists but not the same albums. Part of me really getting back into records is because we moved the racks the way we did. It is much easier for me to get to the TT now that it is on the right side of the room. I might do a comparison of one of those artists at some time. Not that the OPPO sounds bad, because it does not. To be honest, I was very surprised that it sounds as good as it does. But the records just sound better to ME. Just more natural and it feels like I am in the music. If I get the chance, I will do some comparisons. This weekend is tight with Temple Foot ball, GO OWLS and Sunday football, but I will do it at some point.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/20949533
> 
> 
> I care Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've always enjoyed your posts, and watching your system and room progress has be very interesting. You brought up a good point, vinyl listening in your room,..how is it with the SubM? Does it create problems with LF acoustical/mechanical feedback?
> 
> 
> All the best



Thanks. The phono preamp is not a "real" full fledged preamp. It it sort of a preamp that amps the cart so the table can run. Since it is connected to the Integra, if I wanted to, I could use any mode the Integra has for record listening. I typically listen in bypass mode though with no sub at all. There is no feedback at all from the sub. I have the expected analog hum sometimes but it is very faint and when a record is playing you can't even here it. Even between songs. You have to really crank the level with no record running to hear it. Like I said before, on good clean records, there are no pops or cracks and you only hear quiet between each song.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Just to clarify the music I am going to compare cd to LP

John Mayall-Turning Point

Pink Floyd-The Wall

Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon

Little Feat-Wating For Columbus

AC\\DC Back in Black

If any more pop up I will let you know but that is a good selection to start with.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. Craig was curious if I had done any cd to LP comparisons. I have wanted to but his question forced me to act. So tonight I started. This was not a blind test to see if I could tell which was playing. This was just which sounded better to me. I listed to John Mayall "Turning Point" and AC\\DC "Back In Black". First let me say that the OPPO is a very good player. But to be honest, IMHO, it can't hang with my analog setup. First up was John Mayall. That album is a good test. It is live. Plus it has a number of different instruments playing at once. On that record you hear guitar, bass, saxophone, flute, harmonica and the voice. On this record all of those instruments and voice sounded more real. The bass was much better in particular. It just drew you into the music. The notes seemed to be more extended. Like they lasted longer. When I switched to the cd everything seemed more compressed. It still sounded good but it also sounded like they were shouting at you. I should also mention that I kept the level the same. The instruments did not extend as much with the cd. It was just a much more enjoyable experience to listen to the LP as compared to the CD.


Now the other album I chose was AC\\DC back in black. Only this time I played the CD first and then listen to the LP. AC\\DC is your basic blues hard rock band. In comparing the two, cd and LP, LP "wins" again. The bass line and drums were just more natural sounding. The Guitars and vocals were powerful without being piercing. Again, I kept it at the same level. With the LP it was much more flowing. As before, the notes seemed to extend for a longer period of time. It's like with CD's the edges are clipped or cut off. The OPPO is a fine player and to be honest, it is just as good as the $6,000 Esoteric it replaced. But for me, it just can't compete with my table and cart combo. Now I know that LP playback is not for everyone. People like multichannel music and cd's are fine. If you think I am crazy, that's cool. On some records you do hear some pops. But that has to do with the quality of the record itself, how clean the needle is, and how clean the record is. I have records that are clean, or 180g and there are virtually, and sometimes no pops at all. I may do more comparisons but the results and thoughts would just be the same. Vinyl sounds more realistic, more relaxed, and just plain better to me. Is it for everyone, probably not. But that's OK. I normally go my own way anyway. I will do some more tests because they are fun and interesting. If anybody has any questions, please as away







.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20821607
> 
> 
> Thanks Claude. Those purple boxes are yoga blocks. I use them to help me strecth my ankles. They really are great chairs. To be honest, anything much bigger really would have looked silly in the room plus I would not have been able to center my main chair as much as I can now.



Just something about the Yoga blocks. I have them stacked on top of each other against one of the driver covers. I could always feel the driver and the driver cover move when I put my hand on it. But last night I watched a bit of HTTYD. The bass was so intense that the motion of the driver was moving the blocks. I saw them shift. It was not just vibrating with the room but on very deep bass scenes they would just move with the movie. It looked pretty cool. Other people have shown the Cap moving a blanket with its port. Well, I moved yoga blocks with the excursion of my driver


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/21166526
> 
> 
> Just something about the Yoga blocks. I have them stacked on top of each other against one of the driver covers. I could always feel the driver and the driver cover move when I put my hand on it. But last night I watched a bit of HTTYD. The bass was so intense that the motion of the driver was moving the blocks. I saw them shift. It was not just vibrating with the room but on very deep bass scenes they would just move with the movie. It looked pretty cool. Other people have shown the Cap moving a blanket with its port. Well, I moved yoga blocks with the excursion of my driver



That's pretty cool Mike! HTTYD has certainly got some deeply extended, wide bandwidth, high level LF. I'm guessing the Submersive took the big infra blasts in stride...?










Thanks for sharing


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/21166526
> 
> 
> Just something about the Yoga blocks. I have them stacked on top of each other against one of the driver covers. I could always feel the driver and the driver cover move when I put my hand on it. But last night I watched a bit of HTTYD. The bass was so intense that the motion of the driver was moving the blocks. I saw them shift. It was not just vibrating with the room but on very deep bass scenes they would just move with the movie. It looked pretty cool. Other people have shown the Cap moving a blanket with its port. Well, I moved yoga blocks with the excursion of my driver



Post a video Mike.







That would be










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21171361
> 
> 
> Post a video Mike.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would be
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



Don't have a video camera







. I know, it's like I live in the 19th century







. If you have one you can bring it over and we can take some video shots then.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21170780
> 
> 
> That's pretty cool Mike! HTTYD has certainly got some deeply extended, wide bandwidth, high level LF. I'm guessing the Submersive took the big infra blasts in stride...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for sharing



No problems at all. It just caught me off gaurd when I saw that. I was like,

WTF, did that just move







.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. I just watched TRON. I was able to see the blocks move again. When Sam gets transported onto the grid, there is some sort of really low pluse. They moved with that as well. I don't know the frequency that these effects are, but my guess would be pretty low.


----------



## Geoff4RFC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/21172471
> 
> 
> OK. I just watched TRON. I was able to see the blocks move again. When Sam gets transported onto the grid, there is some sort of really low pluse. They moved with that as well. I don't know the frequency that these effects are, but my guess would be pretty low.



That's awesome!!


I've got an Epik Empire and I use Tron to demo my set up. Anytime I want my two teenage daughters to run downstairs from the opposite side of the house and yell "Really????", I just dial up the sub.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Geoff4RFC* /forum/post/21172486
> 
> 
> That's awesome!!
> 
> 
> I've got an Epik Empire and I use Tron to demo my set up. Anytime I want my two teenage daughters to run downstairs from the opposite side of the house and yell "Really????", I just dial up the sub.



Yea. It has some good powerful and my guess, low bass in that sound track. One of the goto demo films for sure.


----------



## tritonstudio

Mike,

You got a very nice jmlab speaker system and new setup w/ nice rack going on. I want to know where did you get the stainless steel w/clear fiberglass audio rack? what is the model name? I want to get something like that. Let me know.


Thanks


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tritonstudio* /forum/post/21191942
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> You got a very nice jmlab speaker system and new setup w/ nice rack going on. I want to know where did you get the stainless steel w/clear fiberglass audio rack? what is the model name? I want to get something like that. Let me know.
> 
> 
> Thanks



Thanks. The rack is very nice but trust me, you don't want the one I bought







. It costs more then you want to know. I can try and find some other racks that look simmilar but that are more affordable if you like. Give me some time and I will see what I can dig up.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I don't know how much you want to spend, but you may want to check out the Solid Tech Radius series. The prices are much more affordable then the rack that I bought. Just understand it's not going to be a $300 stand.
http://www.solid-tech.net/products/r...models-4533565


----------



## tritonstudio




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/21194497
> 
> 
> I don't know how much you want to spend, but you may want to check out the Solid Tech Radius series. The prices are much more affordable then the rack that I bought. Just understand it's not going to be a $300 stand.
> http://www.solid-tech.net/products/r...models-4533565



These rack is really nice similar to some from italy ! but right now I'm planning for some kind of silver & glass to match my silver krell component. The most affodable I find is the VTI rack. They have audio & TV rack combination which can handle upto 400lb/shelf for any future upgrade to heavy amp.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tritonstudio* /forum/post/21197196
> 
> 
> These rack is really nice similar to some from italy ! but right now I'm planning for some kind of silver & glass to match my silver krell component. The most affodable I find is the VTI rack. They have audio & TV rack combination which can handle upto 400lb/shelf for any future upgrade to heavy amp.



Found that company online. They look like very nice racks. Mine can hold up to 150lbs per shelf. That was from a 2002 review. I bought mine later then that so it may be able to hold more. I don't know. If there ever is a time I have a component that is more then 150lbs, I will make it a priority. But 500 total pounds should do me just fine. Good luck with the rack.


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/21194497
> 
> 
> I don't know how much you want to spend, but you may want to check out the Solid Tech Radius series. The prices are much more affordable then the rack that I bought. Just understand it's not going to be a $300 stand.
> http://www.solid-tech.net/products/r...models-4533565



Dig the appearance of that stuff, nice.


Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21199314
> 
> 
> Dig the appearance of that stuff, nice.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the heads up.



Yea, it does look like nice stuff. Plus it is imported by Audioplus services. They are the ones who import Focal as well. This is their top level line
http://www.solid-tech.net/products/r...models-4533597


----------



## Scott Simonian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/21172471
> 
> 
> OK. I just watched TRON. I was able to see the blocks move again. When Sam gets transported onto the grid, there is some sort of really low pluse. They moved with that as well. I don't know the frequency that these effects are, but my guess would be pretty low.




Here is the spectral content of that scene when Sam is digitized.











Betcha it was that 10hz hit at the bottom of the pic. Ripples my room and makes my couch feel like a waterbed.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks for posting that Scott. That's probably it. It is pretty cool. All of that low stuff is sure fun when you experience it. But besides just seeing the cone move, you can definitely feel the bass in the room. It's not like it moves with no sound. You really feel something.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I posted this on Mark's forum but I don't think I posted it here. I am using a SMS-1 to help tame that nasty peak I have. That has a subsonic filter option. We could not find how to turn it off completely so we just set it to 5 Hz, 6 dB/octave. So I should get that 10hz stuff with no problem. I don't think I need to go any lower then that. With that in place I am probably getting just about all the content that is out there. Plus, I don't feel like messing around to see if it can be lowered.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Pretty certain that Mark's SM is the lowest reaching consumer level sub on the market. It's got Seaton blood in it.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Scott Simonian* /forum/post/21200061
> 
> 
> Pretty certain that Mark's SM is the lowest reaching consumer level sub on the market. It's got Seaton blood in it.



I guess it's a good thing that's it's sealed then. I would hate to have clean Seaton Blood off my carpet







.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Ahaha! That would have been good for Halloween. Maybe for next year.


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/21199939
> 
> 
> I posted this on Mark's forum but I don't think I posted it here. I am using a SMS-1 to help tame that nasty peak I have. That has a subsonic filter option. We could not find how to turn it off completely so we just set it to 5 Hz, 6 dB/octave. So I should get that 10hz stuff with no problem. I don't think I need to go any lower then that. With that in place I am probably getting just about all the content that is out there. Plus, I don't feel like messing around to see if it can be lowered.



I don't blame you for not worrying about it.


Besides, you've got most likely got more room gain than perhaps any contributor around. That said,...your pretty well served down to 5hz, below that you begin encountering signal path limitations.


Looking back at your room dimensions, your PVG onset is around 38hz. So down at 5hz, you've got nearly 3 octaves worth of support. Theoretically, with 12db/oct maximum, and realistically maybe around 8db/oct. All that said, you're looking at anywhere between a minimum of 18db of gain at 5hz(based on a very conservative 6db/oct), [email protected] typical, up to [email protected]


All that is reciprocal headroom added back in acoustically. Which my friend, is very, very nice for any home system, HT or otherwise.


I too picked up a SMS-1, I've yet to spend time incorporating it into either system. I like the remote control access of high pass filters, house curves, etc, ....I've intended to experiment a great deal with these functions.


Good luck


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Scott Simonian* /forum/post/21200061
> 
> 
> Pretty certain that Mark's SM is the lowest reaching consumer level sub on the market. It's got Seaton blood in it.



I could only think of a handful of other's even in the same ballpark.


Funk, with the LMS5400/4kw combo has the potential. Selah had a 15" TC Sounds offering, not sure active of passive.


It's Mark's total understanding of the importance of each element,...from line voltage to the drive units,...and everything in between.


----------



## Scott Simonian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21201020
> 
> 
> I could only think of a handful of other's even in the same ballpark.
> 
> 
> Funk, with the LMS5400/4kw combo has the potential. Selah had a 15" TC Sounds offering, not sure active of passive.
> 
> 
> It's Mark's total understanding of the importance of each element,...from line voltage to the drive units,...and everything in between.



Yeah. I couldn't think of any other ID company or even a big namer that would come close. Nathan's stuff is more custom, imo, so I wouldn't count that as gear 'on the market' not that his stuff is out of reach though.







Only proper designed DIY builds will extend any lower... if is possible at all.










Geez. Seeing all these setups.... makes me want to get my quad 18's on Lab power all finished up. I'm such a lagger.


----------



## MIkeDuke

You know guys, when I was thinking about buying this sub, I admit, I had some seccond thoughts. Mark had sent me some info in private and I was stunned at what he sent. I was worried it would be too much sub for the room. Now I am glad I got it. Knowing that I have all that potentail down low and knowing that I will probably never tax the sub in my room is a great thing.



FOH, you thoughts on below 5hz with regards to the signal is why Mark said don't worry about it when I was wondering if I should take the subsonic filter off if I could. I am really not that savy with measuring equipment but at some point I would like to measure down as far as I can go. If you look at the charts Craig did for me they stop at 15hz but I really have no drop off there. Maybe some day. What really gets me about it though is the size. It is just a bit bigger then my old sub. It seems that these other subs, DIY or not, are mostly bigger and more heavy the a SubMersive HP. Regarding the SMS-1, lucky for me Craig had one he no longer needed. That did the trick. Yea, I am a happy camper with my system. The whole thing sounds really good.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Last night I tried a quick experiment. I know many people here like MC music a lot. My Integra has a few modes that can playback regular cd's into some sort of MC playback. So I did that last night. Maybe it was the disk I used, or my surround speaker layout, but I was not that impressed. I had very nice sound coming out of the front stage but I could gather no information from the surrounds. Now, if a disk, say a SACD or DVD-A is recorded in MC, then it sounds very good. Like DSOTM. That sounds fantastic. And a few others as well. But as far as regular cd's, I think I will stick to bypass mode on the Integra. It sounds very good and the center image I get is really impressive. Just my thoughts.


----------



## FOH

^^^^^


So you're saying you prefer the normal 2 channel sources played in two channel? I'm that way as well. Granted, I've not experimented much, but like you, I simply prefer a straight up playback. I'm certain it's source and room dependent. I've not had the pleasure of experimenting with the newer modes,...DSX etc.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21232143
> 
> 
> ^^^^^
> 
> 
> So you're saying you prefer the normal 2 channel sources played in two channel? I'm that way as well. Granted, I've not experimented much, but like you, I simply prefer a straight up playback. I'm certain it's source and room dependent. I've not had the pleasure of experimenting with the newer modes,...DSX etc.



I think it's a room and personal thing. I have heard heard great MC at Craig's house with his older speakers. It sounded very good. But I think room size and speaker placement has much to do with the results you get. I just finsihed listening to the record one of Little Feat's albums. "Waiting for Columbus" on vinyl. So strait 2ch all the way. It sounded fantastic. Again, the phantom center I get is enough for me. Now, when I watch concerts, I like the multi channel effect. With all the speakers going it sounds great. So again, in my room, I think if it is mixed for MC play back it can sound great. But so far, when I have tried to play a regular cd in some sort of other formant, the results are not as impressive. I may experiment some more. I don't think I have tried all of the formats so who knows. But I really just like plain jane

2ch







.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I was going to wait until Fri and then give the store a call to see if they have an update. It does me no good to ***** and complain at them. As I noted before, people with bad 80.1 boards are just getting them now and I don't know how long they were waiting. I guess when you say "start calling them", you mean Integra. I can do that. But, here is the thing. What if Integra really is a crappy company and they have everyone fooled. What if I call up to complain, and because of that they make it an even longer wait. That's all I am worried about. I mean, I think I have earned the right to call them once but anymore then that I am afraid that it will go even worse for me that's all. And yep. I am 52 days without a system. I will give them a call after 9:00 am because that's when there automated system said the department I want will be open.


P.S I just checked the calendar and I realized that Labor day is coming up quick. 12 days including today. If it gets done by then it will be a miracle. Even if Integra sent it some time this week, I have no idea where I am in the cue at the repair shop. They did tell me that they are ready to go and just need the boards but again, I don't know how many other Integra preamps they have there so mine may not even make the cut. Then I have to hope that they can do the install in a timely fashion. A lot of things have to fall into place to for this to work out in my favor and from the track record so far, I just don't see it happening. Craig, if your schedule becomes very tight don't sweat it. When ever you have the time, if this goes on longer, we will figure it out.


----------



## Franin

I agree with Craig John, Mike. I understand what you are saying but you need to ring Integra head office and let them know how long its taking. A friend of mine had a Denon DVD 2910 in repairs ( Laser failed ) a number of years ago ( before blu ray ) and it was under warranty and he gave it to the repair agents for Denon over here and they took quiet awhile also. He rang the the repair agents asking how long will it take as its been quite awhile and they responded rudely so he rang Denon ( Australia distributors over here ) and explained his situation and they were not impressed. Within a couple of days he was told to pick up his player.

Integra needs to know, Im sure someone there should help.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I hear you Frank. The Integra site is kind of light on Contact info. Just two numbers and they both give the same number in their recording for what I need so that is the number I am going to call after 9:00.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. I just called up Integra/Onkyo. The guy wants me to contact the service center. Since they have the all the info he said I should get the serial number of the unit and copy of the sales slip. Then I can email the guy at Integra with this info, along with the name and contact info from the service center and they will send out a new unit for me. So now I have to wait until 10:00 so I can contact the repair store.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Another update. I contacted the service center and explained what info I needed and what the plan was. Then I contacted Integra and gave them all the info they needed(my info, service center info, SN, Date of purchase). So I emailed the info to the person I spoke to at Integra. That person then called the service center and arranged for the unit to be sent back. Once they do that, and Integra has my old unit, they will ship out the new unit to me. So I have to say that in the end, Integra did the right thing.


I honestly was not expecting a new 80.2 but even the guy at Integra said that over 50 days is ridiculous to wait. So the moral of the story is if something like this breaks, ship it to the service center and just wait as long as you can. Then, when it seems like just a stupid amount of time has passed call up the company and explain what happened and how long you have been waiting. I don't think I would have gotten a new preamp if I called 2-3 weeks after I sent it in to the service center. But, in the end they did the right thing so I can give them props for that. The guy from Integra said he will let me know when the new one gets shipped out so I can look out for it.


----------



## Franin

That's great news Mike. You get a brand new unit, its good to see the guy at Integra thought 50 days is ridiculous and they're helping you.


These service centres I know they can only work with what there given but they should be communicating more with there customers.


Anyway it shouldn't be long now with your new arrival.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/720#post_23652961
> 
> 
> That's great news Mike. You get a brand new unit, its good to see the guy at Integra thought 50 days is ridiculous and they're helping you.
> 
> *These service centres I know they can only work with what there given but they should be communicating more with there customers.*
> 
> 
> Anyway it shouldn't be long now with your new arrival.


I agree. I did get info from them but I was the one making all the calls. If I did not make that first call I would have never known about how Integra sends out replacement boards and I might still be waiting. I don't like to rock the boat but I am not going to be stepped on either. Part of my issue was that I figured I would just get the run around from Integra if I called them directly since they are such a big company. I figured I would get the standard "we are doing our best" kind of answer. I guess it really doesn't hurt to call them up directly if things get out of hand. Anyway, let's see what happens now that we have a plan in place.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/720#post_23652736
> 
> 
> Another update. I contacted the service center and explained what info I needed and what the plan was. Then I contacted Integra and gave them all the info they needed(my info, service center info, SN, Date of purchase). So I emailed the info to the person I spoke to at Integra. That person then called the service center and arranged for the unit to be sent back. Once they do that, and Integra has my old unit, they will ship out the new unit to me. So I have to say that in the end, Integra did the right thing.
> 
> 
> I honestly was not expecting a new 80.2 but even the guy at Integra said that over 50 days is ridiculous to wait. So the moral of the story is if something like this breaks, ship it to the service center and just wait as long as you can. Then, when it seems like just a stupid amount of time has passed call up the company and explain what happened and how long you have been waiting. I don't think I would have gotten a new preamp if I called 2-3 weeks after I sent it in to the service center. But, in the end they did the right thing so I can give them props for that. The guy from Integra said he will let me know when the new one gets shipped out so I can look out for it.


You squeaky wheel, you!










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/720#post_23654097
> 
> 
> You squeaky wheel, you!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig


I try not to be if I can help it. Really I do. But your post egging me on sort of helped. Hopefully it won't be that long so we can work out a time to set it up again.


----------



## audioguy

You go Mike


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/720#post_23654375
> 
> 
> You go Mike


Score one for the little guy







. I guess they still have 80.2's that they never sold because I think the 80.3 is all they sell now preamp wise. If I can get another 3 years out of the new one, I will be very happy.


----------



## wkingincharge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/720#post_23654436
> 
> 
> Score one for the little guy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I guess they still have 80.2's that they never sold because I think the 80.3 is all they sell now preamp wise. If I can get another 3 years out of the new one, I will be very happy.



The term Patience is a Virtue comes to my mind hearing this news. Congrats man !! I am glad Integra made things right for you. Now the countdown begins to getting your setup running at full strength again.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Yep, Patience is truly one of my strong suits. But it did help that I had a venting outlet here







. Anyway, now I just have to wait for the exchanges and then I will be good to go. Hopefully I can get it in time so Craig can help me install it back in my system before he becomes too busy. But it's out of my hands now. I am still happy that I did not have to get mid-evil on their ass. Hopefully everybody can get their act together and start shipping the items they need to ship. And I do want to give props to Integra for making it right. The guy on the line was going to give me the standard "we have no boards..." line but as soon as I said "yea, but I have been waiting for over 50 days", that's when he said it's unacceptable and said he would send out a new one. So, we shall see and as I said, hopefully the service center and Integra can get on the same page. Of course I will give an update when I get it.


----------



## pcweber111

So you're getting a new 80.3 as a replacement? If so that's awesome, glad it worked out in the end. Sucks you've had to go this long but hey as we get older patience really becomes a virtue. Of course that means you have to recalibrate, take new pics, etc.. We'll wait here patiently for updates.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pcweber111*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/720#post_23656333
> 
> 
> So you're getting a new 80.3 as a replacement? If so that's awesome, glad it worked out in the end. Sucks you've had to go this long but hey as we get older patience really becomes a virtue. Of course that means you have to recalibrate, take new pics, etc.. We'll wait here patiently for updates.


I don't know about an 80.3. I was just running through the scenarios (I really have to stop chasing the mice in my head). The first scenario is that Integra still has 80.2's sitting in a warehouse someplace and they will ship me one of those. They only offer the 80.3 now and a soon to be released 60.5. My 80.2 is closer to the 80.3. The other scenario is that they don't have any 80.2's left and they will send me an 80.3 which I will not be upset about. The last scenario I can think of, although it's the most unlikely, is that since they don't have the 80.2 any more, they will simply make an 80.2 just for me. That seems like the least likely to me. I am guessing that they still had built 80.2's when they released the 80.3 so I am guessing I will get one of those 80.2's. If it turns out to be an 80.3, well, what can I say... We shall see. And yep, I will have to have my system re-calibrated again. Back to the 80.2 vs 80.3, I really don't know what the major advantages the 80.3 has over the 80.2. Maybe 3D, 4K. Also HQV(whatever that is) I don't know if I can use that in my current setup. I can't use 4k and 3D but they would still be nice to have. Plus it has another Audyssey selection. But if they still give me a 80.2, it's not like I will be upset. We shall see. Of course I will let it be known what I get.


----------



## pcweber111

Ah ok I thought I read that you are getting an 80.3. Well regardless of what you end up getting here's hoping you don't have to go through this again!


----------



## MIkeDuke

I can sort of see how my one other post could seem like that's what happening. But nope. I just know I am getting what I have replaced. Which is good enough for me since I only had until Oct before my 3 year warranty was up.


----------



## craig john

One other possiblity is that they'll send you a factory refurbished 80.2 unit.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I guess I will have no way of knowing though if it something they had at the warehouse or a refurbished one. If it is a refurbished one then that would be just like getting mine fixed and having it sent back to me right?

Just a P.S

If they don't have the parts to send out for a repair on my own 80.2, how are the going to give me a refurbished 80.2. Wouldn't that mean that they have all the parts to make it "like new"? If that were the case, how come they just can't make mine like new. Do you see my point? If the are making refurbished units, they would need all the parts, even the HDMI boards. If they can do that, then the logic part of my brain is asking why don't they just ship out the HDMI board. That is why I thought about them maybe having assembled 80.2's somewhere. That makes more sense to me. Or an 80.3 if they really don't make or have any 80.2's any more. But I just can't see a refurbished 80.2. Unless you can explain it Craig. Maybe I am making this more complex.


----------



## craig john

A refurb'd unit could have been refurb'd for something other than the HDMI board. It could have had a brokon connector or a bad volume control or most anything. I might even have been opened, never used and returned. Lots of reasons units get refurb'd.


There is nothing inherently wrong with a refurb.

Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

O.K. I was just wondering. Hopefully whatever they send, it will last me for a while longer.


----------



## pcweber111

Yeah I buy refurb all the time. You can get a great deal depending on what it is.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I wonder if I will ever know if it is a refurb or not. I mean, since I am getting it directly from Integra I guess it would be O.K. I am just wondering if they send a note or something. And since they are sending a unit that is "new to me", is it "as is" or do I get a new warranty with it.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/720#post_23660024
> 
> 
> I wonder if I will ever know if it is a refurb or not. I mean, since I am getting it directly from Integra I guess it would be O.K. I am just wondering if they send a note or something. And since they are sending a unit that is "new to me", is it "as is" or do I get a new warranty with it.



I was actually wondering about the warranty Mike. I guess its best to ask them.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I sent an email to the guy who I was dealing with and asked him some of these questions. Hopefully he will get back to me. He replied by email before so hopefully he will again.


----------



## MIkeDuke

This is directly from Integra. I asked them what I could expect. A referbished unit, new in box 80.2(if the have any left) or a 80.3. This is the reply I got back

"HI Michael,


If your unit was under warranty when it went to the service enter you would be getting a new unit. As far as the model if we do not have any of your model we would send you the most comparable model which in your case might be dhc-80.3.


Thanks"


My unit is still under warranty so I guess it would be a NIB 80.2 or a brand new 80.3. I have to admit, even though everyone is saying that a refurbished one is fine, I do feel better knowing that whatever it is, it will be a new one. I would be happy with either.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/720#post_23661151
> 
> 
> This is directly from Integra. I asked them what I could expect. A referbished unit, new in box 80.2(if the have any left) or a 80.3. This is the reply I got back
> 
> "HI Michael,
> 
> 
> If your unit was under warranty when it went to the service enter you would be getting a new unit. As far as the model if we do not have any of your model we would send you the most comparable model which in your case might be dhc-80.3.
> 
> 
> Thanks"
> 
> 
> My unit is still under warranty so I guess it would be a NIB 80.2 or a brand new 80.3. I have to admit, even though everyone is saying that a refurbished one is fine, I do feel better knowing that whatever it is, it will be a new one. I would be happy with either.


----------



## BrolicBeast

#Winning


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/720#post_23661403
> 
> 
> #Winning


Yea, me and Charlie







. Except I have to admit, while I am cool, I am not a total bitchin rock star from Mars.


----------



## pcweber111

Excellent news! Good to see there seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel now.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Yea, it would be great. I am hoping to hear something next week. I need to get it pretty fast because I know Craig is booked up after Labor day so I really hope I can get it before then. Although that would mean that I would have to get it sometime next week and that might be wishful thinking. Oh well. At least when I have it I will feel better and if I have to wait a bit longer I can. Just having it will be a good thing. It all depends how fast everyone moves now. The repair shop has to send out the bad one to Integra, then Integra has to send me the new one. That might be asking a lot in one week. We shall see.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Even though I am hopefully I am in the home stretch, I still want to keep track. I think I am on day 58 without my system. But as I said, hopefully everyone can get on the same page and I will have something in my possession soon.

edit:

Of course the repair shop looks like they did not send out my 80.2 back to Integra. I have to call them and see what the deal is meaning if they did ship it out and I need the shipping info. If I have that, then Integra said they can ship out the 80.3. Why can't things go smoothly. I mean, is it really that hard to ask?


----------



## MIkeDuke

You know something, it's boarding on hysterical now. Integra needs to know that the 80.2 is being shipped back to them before they will ship the replacement. But, the service center said they have 75 other things going out and keeping track of one item might be too much for them







. It is going out today but I am not sure I will be able to get the tracking info from them, which I need to send to Integra. So unless the service center sends me the info today, I would say that's it's virtually impossible for me to get it in time for Craig to be able to help me out. But who knows. Let's see what happens. At this point though, my hope is fading fast.


----------



## MIkeDuke

It looks like the store finally sent it back to Integra. I sent a message to Integra letting them know that but I will probably send another one in the morning.

Edit. Now that I read the email more carefully, it says that a UPS label was created. It doesn't mean that they shipped it yet. I really hope it goes out tomorrow.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Here is an update:

The email I got does have a tracking feature. As of this morning 7:19 am it says "on vehicle for Delivery today." It looks like it went out 5:40am. It says it should be there by the end of business day today. Now I just have to give the tracking number to the guy I have been talking to at Integra and I think he will send out which ever new one I am getting. The "TO" section is the same address that the Integra guy has in his signature in his emails.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/750#post_23676791
> 
> 
> Here is an update:
> 
> The email I got does have a tracking feature. As of this morning 7:19 am it says "on vehicle for Delivery today." It looks like it went out 5:40am. It says it should be there by the end of business day today.



That's great news Mike


----------



## MIkeDuke

Yea Frank. Now let's see how they handle the home stretch. I still don't know if I am getting a NIB 80.2 or 80.3. In my case I guess it really does not matter since sonic wise, they are supposed to sound the same. Just a few differences in the Audyssey choices and a bunch of video changes I really can't use. It seems the Marantz is a sonic improvement over the 80.3 but I was very happy with the 80.2 and if I end up with an 80.3, it's not like I will be crying







.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/750#post_23676970
> 
> 
> Yea Frank. Now let's see how they handle the home stretch.



Im sure it will be good mate.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I hate doing almost 6 posts in a row but it looks like it was delivered back to Integra. Now I just have to wait on someone else getting back to me to figure out what the next step is. Whatever it is, I really hope that it can be done fairly quickly. I am really hoping I can get it before the weekend so I can see if Craig and Dennis are available to help me out.


----------



## MIkeDuke

It's just me again







. So I got this message from Integra:

"Hi Mike,


I have passed your order to our order department and it should be shipping out today I will be able to provide you a tracking number tomorrow when it becomes available, the replacement unit will be a new DHC80.3.


Thanks for your patience"


So a new 80.3







. That's not too bad. Hopefully I can get it by tomorrow or Sat so Craig and Dennis can make it out Sun to help me set it up.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/750#post_23680602
> 
> 
> It's just me again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . So I got this message from Integra:
> 
> "Hi Mike,
> 
> 
> I have passed your order to our order department and it should be shipping out today I will be able to provide you a tracking number tomorrow when it becomes available, the replacement unit will be a new DHC80.3.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your patience"
> 
> 
> So a new 80.3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . That's not too bad. Hopefully I can get it by tomorrow or Sat so Craig and Dennis can make it out Sun to help me set it up.



Thats awesome Mike an Integra DHC 80.3, fantastic stuff.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Yea Frank. I know that it's supposed to sound as good as the 80.2 so I won't get an audio "upgrade" like the people who replaced whatever they had for the new Marantz, but hey, it's a new pre-amp that I did not have to put out any money for so I really can't complain







. Plus, I really can't use any of the advanced features on the Marantz or the Integra and I think the Integra sounds fine with my system. I am just doing back flips because now there really is an end to the tunnel and hopefully Sun will end my audio drought.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Man, even when it's good news it's bad. I just got the tracking number. It is being shipped by Fed ex and they say the expected date of arrival is 9/3 or next Tues. It did go out on Thurs and is coming from IL. The problem is that I think Craig and Dennis are really busy after this weekend so I may have a nice looking box sitting in my room for a while longer. Why can't somethings break my way







.


----------



## craig john




----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/750#post_23684719


Yes indeed. So you just have to let me know when you have time free for this. I am sorry that this weekend did not work out. And of course there is no pressure here and I mean that. You guys are doing ME a favor so just let me know when you think you will have time to do it.

Just a count for me: 61 days.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Guess what I have waiting for me at home







. So 63 days all told from when I sent it out until I got the replacement. I think we are going to try for this weekend.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/750#post_23695666
> 
> 
> Guess what I have waiting for me at home



I assume the answer to that question in not a hot blonde!










You can tell the age of this group of forum posters by the fact that they get excited about a piece of hardware with 277 connectors on the back, some LED lights and a few control knobs !!


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/750#post_23695681
> 
> 
> I assume the answer to that question in not a hot blonde!


No, it's not







. But if you have any spares you are not using... Well, just let me know







.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/750#post_23695681
> 
> 
> You can tell the age of this group of forum posters by the fact that they get excited about a piece of hardware with 277 connectors on the back, some LED lights and a few control knobs !!


Hey, I resemble that remark.


----------



## pcweber111




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/700_100#post_23695681
> 
> 
> 
> You can tell the age of this group of forum posters by the fact that they get excited about a piece of hardware with 277 connectors on the back, some LED lights and a few control knobs !!



Well in all fairness this is an av forum so it sorta comes with the territory. That's like saying you can tell a lot about the forum members of a sewing forum because they all get excited about a new sewing machine. Well, duh.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I know. I can't wait to be back in HT heaven again.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Hey man, I saw your list of movies you have to be through....Oz and Oblivion are knockouts man. Oblivion has a lot of vocal/environmental scenes punctuated by some awesome action scenes, and Oz is similar, although the last 30 minutes are just AMAZING! That is a benchmark A/V marathon right there


----------



## MIkeDuke

Yea, I can't wait. It looks like it hopefully happen on the 15th because Craig is working the weekend of the 7th and 8th. That's OK. I waited this long, a little more won't hurt. Plus, at leas I have in my house. I also have to get back to my burning and backing up all my media. It's been a lot of time doing nothing so I need to get back in the swing of things on that level as well. But I am excited. It's been so long that I really feel like it will be almost like a new system. 60+ days is a lot.


----------



## Franin

Hey Mike good to read you have it in your house. Hopefully it won't be too long before your system is up and going.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/750#post_23705346
> 
> 
> Hey Mike good to read you have it in your house. Hopefully it won't be too long before your system is up and going.


Looking at next weekend Frank







. I can't wait.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/750#post_23706568
> 
> 
> Looking at next weekend Frank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I can't wait.



Excellent


----------



## MIkeDuke

We just have to decide if it will be Sat or Sun. But I can manage one more week.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Looks like it's going to be Sat







. I know there is a lot of work to do. I hope it can all get done by the time everyone has to leave. Wish me luck.


----------



## Selden Ball

Luck!


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks. We shall see how it goes. It may have to be spread over two days since they both can't make it on Sat.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/750#post_23716586
> 
> 
> Thanks. We shall see how it goes. It may have to be spread over two days since they both can't make it on Sat.



You have a lot of movie catching up to do Mike


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/780#post_23719452
> 
> 
> You have a lot of movie catching up to do Mike


Tell me about it.

OHF

Oblivion

OZ

Star Trek:Into the Dark(Buying that this week)

Plus a bunch of others that I can't think of right now. It should be great. I can't wait to get back to ripping again.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK, Here we go.

This may get long so you better settle in. Craig came over today to setup my system, yet again. I think this is like the 4 or 5th time he has worked on my system. Often with Dennis, but he was busy today so it was just Craig. So Craig made it to my house by about 8:30. He saw the surrounds first and said what the... I think he as upset that the mounts had failed as they did. But, I said not to worry, I bought some others. Of course they did not work either. Perfect. So now what. Well, un-phased, Craig just place a screw in the wall, he was able to find the stud, and then just placed the surrounds on the screw. The surrounds had a place that we were able to use for that. But that was at least 20 min right there.


Then he worked on connecting everything to to 80.3. When I was sending out the 80.2, he wanted me to just disconnect everything and try to label the stuff my self. I was able to convince him that was a bad idea








, and suggested that he come over do that. Well he did. And he marked all my cables as well. Let me tell you, it's a good thing he did that and the he disconnected the 80.2 himself because if he did not, it would have taken much longer to connect everything. But things were flowing pretty well.


Once everything was connected we had to do all the input assignments. That wasn't too bad. Then came the room calibration. That again was a little tricky because of the new menu system in the 80.3, but Craig was able to figure out what he had to do. Then, once everything was connected, and the server was setup, it was time for Audyssey. I left the room so Craig would have more space to work. Then he gave me the all clear to come back in. Then we setup the Crowson with the right level and set a max level so I could not over drive the system. Then... Something magical happened.


We started to just listen to some clips and do some fine tuning. What I heard was probably the BEST sound I had EVER had in my room. This counts all the other times Craig has calibrated my system. Before, with the 80.2, if I went beyond -16 or -15, it was really loud and became uncomfortable. Now, I can go to -10 and my system and my ears are just cursing. -8 or higher is not even an issue. And the Crowson handled those levels as well. I just could not believe it. I was sitting in the chair without the Crowson, and my pant legs were starting to move. The entire system has never sounded better. I mean, Craig and I just were in amazement and said we both said "yep, I think we got it." As I said before, and I don't mean to boast, but I don't think I have heard many systems that sound better then mine does right now. Well, I think that enough at this point. I am busy backing up my media but when I watch some more movies, I will post some more thoughts. I think Craig is also going to post his thoughts as well. I can't wait to hear how he thought it went and I am really looking forward to what he has to say concerning the sound and the charts that I think he is going to post. Until later, I will be enjoying my system






































































.


----------



## Selden Ball

Great!

Thanks for letting us know.


Had you done anything to treat the room's acoustics? Absorbent panels or the like?


----------



## craig john

Well, I think we had a very *successful* day yesterday. As Mike said, we got the surrounds remounted. The previous speaker mounts had failed. They were ball-and-socket, compression mounts and the weight of the speakers had gradually overcome the compression joint. The left surround is mounted above the door. It had migrated down so far, it was interfering with the door closing. I ended up mounting them directly to the wall using the keyhole mount on the back of the speaker. This placed them well above ear level and aimed overhead. I was concerned that this would be a problem, but we decided to let Audyssey work it's magic and see how it turned out. More on that later.


Next we got the 80.3 installed, with everything re-connected. We had labeled all the interconnects when we disconnected the 80.2, so re-connecting was a lot easier than I anticipated. Mike's rack is not easily moveable and the pre/pro goes on the lowest shelf, so I had to use some unusual body mechanics to get everything re-connected, but I got it done pretty quickly.


We then re-installed Mike's sever. I had taken it to my place when he first had the problems to test it on my system. Media servers are not my forte' so I had a little trepidation about installing it, but everything went fine.







I had ripped a few things to the server from my collection, (mostly concert videos), and Mike seemed pleased with everything.


Next, I pulled out XTZ and ran some measurements. We looked at the response with the default settings in the pre/pro. Here they are:

*Pre-SMS-1*
 


Note the huge, 20 dB peak at 40 Hz. That is an inherent mode in Mike's room at his listening position. In the upper right corner you can see a 2D waterfall of the Time/Energy/Frequency response. Note the very intense resonance at 40 Hz depicted by the red to yellow spike extending into the time domain. That resonance/ringing has a seriously detrimental effect on the sound. The SMS-1 was used to knock that down before we ran Audyssey. Here is the result:

*Post-SMS-1:*
 


Note that the peak is knocked down and the resonance is significantly reduced as well.


Here is the sub by itself with an 80 Hz crossover:

*Sub Only, 80 Hz crossover:*
 


And here is the speakers run "Full Range" with no subwoofer. Mike likes to listen to 2-channel in this mode, so we wanted to see how it measured:

*Speakers Full Range:*
 


Note that the spike at 40 Hz is back. This indicates that the problem is inherent to the LP and is independent of the source.


Next we ran Audyssey, 8 positions around the sweet spot. The results indicated that Audyssey had done a good job with Distances and Levels. The crossovers were all set to 40 Hz, so I reset them to 80 Hz, and re-measured the response. Here is the combined result of the speakers and sub with an 80 Hz crossover:

*Post-Audyssey Speakers + Sub, 80 Hz crossover:*
 








That's pretty good, right?


Here's the sub alone with an 80 Hz crossover:

 








WOW! That's one of the best measurements I've ever taken!


Finally, we measured the speakers run Full Range without the sub. I was surprised by this result. Audyssey knocked down the peak, but it also raised the LF's a LOT.

 


I had suggested to Mike that he listen to 2-channel music in "Stereo" mode with the sub engaged because that measurement looked so much better, and would likely sound better. Looking more closely at this measurement reinforces that recommendation, but for different reasons. With all that LF boost, I would be concerned about headroom with this setting. If Mike wants to listen to 2-channel without the sub, I strongly suggest he be very judicious with the MVC. Either that or he should also shut off Audyssey and use the "Direct" mode.


After running Audyssey, we spent some time dialing in the Crowson. I think we got it "just right." We set a "maximum volume" setting of -5, (which is a lot louder than Mike usually listens), so he's not likely to have any further problems with over-driving the transducer.


Finally, we listened to some content. First up was "Art of Flight." That sounded fantastic. Next was "Tron." That sounded excellent as well. I was quite pleased with how the surrounds sounded in their new mounting positions. Audyssey did an excellent job of integrating them.


Overall, I think it was a very successful day.







Mike is back in business and his system sounds better than ever, which is exceptionally good indeed.


Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks again Craig. I have to admit that I was really surprised that we got everything done and you still left at around 2:30. What a team we are







. Anyway, to your music point, I will listen in stereo mode from now on because how can you fight that FR. It does sound fantastic now and after I have time to watch some movies and listen to some music, I will report back what my thoughts are again, But first impressions are that it was a great success yesterday. I am still impressed that we were able to listen at to me, was a loud level on the Integra, yet it did not hurt and there was no fatigue at all. Thanks again.


----------



## Bunga99

Congrats on getting the system back up and running, Mike!


That response does look pancake flat!









By the looks of the Post Auydessy waterfall, you have strong output down to the single digits

















Craig, Thanks for helping out Mike and providing the graphs!


Did you guys leave the Subm in Pgm1 or Pgm2? Either way it looks sweet!!!!!










Can't wait to hear more of your thoughts once you had some more movie and music time, Mike.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/780#post_23738512
> 
> 
> Congrats on getting the system back up and running, Mike!
> 
> 
> That response does look pancake flat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the looks of the Post Auydessy waterfall, you have strong output down to the single digits
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig, Thanks for helping out Mike and providing the graphs!


Hi Claude,


Mike is a stand-up guy, a very helpful forum member, a great host and a good friend. It's a no-brainer to want to help him out.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/780#post_23738512
> 
> 
> Did you guys leave the Subm in Pgm1 or Pgm2? Either way it looks sweet!!!!!


We left it in Pgm1, but we turned DEQ on.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/780#post_23738512
> 
> 
> Can't wait to hear more of your thoughts once you had some more movie and music time, Mike.


I'll be interested too.










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks guys. Yep. I am going to try and do some listening this week. I know that I should be able to get some music in and I I should also be able to get at least one movie in. Now Craig, I still can't believe that we were able to go as loud as we did, under -10 I think right? We did that with the torture scene from TRON and the Crowson held up fine. The other major scenes that are low and loud are from HTTYD and WOTW. There is no reason why I should be scared of those movies at the same level right? You know me. I just want to make sure.


Claude, I still can't believe the response I get. I am sure it is into the single digits. That is just sick. I am busy doing some media maintenance(server related) but that won't stop me from enjoying movies in the mean time. Plus, being able to close the door is really cool now. With my curtains closed, there is no ambient light at all that gets in the room. So yea, I am happy camper.


Thanks again Craig.


----------



## MIkeDuke

" If Mike wants to listen to 2-channel without the sub, I strongly suggest he be very judicious with the MVC. Either that or he should also shut off Audyssey and use the "Direct" mode."

So If I put the 80.3 in direct mode, I will get the L\R speakers only but I will loose Audyssey right? That means I will get that really uneven FR that you posted of my main speakers. That chart of the speakers by themselves, full range without Audyssey has my speaker response looking like the alps. I can see why the stereo mode that adds the sub is the better option. Plus, I have been listening to some music here and there and it does sound pretty damn good that way.


I know people normally say a totally flat response is really no good for music, but I think it sounds fine in my room. Also, now that I have surrounds placed differently, I do think they sound even better. So I would be curious as to what MC modes anyone would suggest I try and if those modes are in the music or movie section of the 80.3 options. More to come as I find time to watch more movies.


----------



## Selden Ball

Supposedly, research done by Harman International revealed that people preferred the sound of music when the room's acoustics resulted in a downward slope in frequency response from the lowest frequencies to the highest. Audyssey tends to produce a flat frequency response, although the "movie" slope does include a rolloff in the highest frequencies.


FWIW, my impression is that many people like the surround effects produced by the DTS Neo processor more than they do Dolby Prologic or Audyssey DSX. A lot also depends on how the music was mixed. Some two-channel recordings are intentionally mixed with surround-sound phasing taken into account, especially when they accompany discrete multichannel surround-sound mixes on the same disc. Supposedly, however, most CD recording studios don't pay any attention to it. As a result, the surround-sound effects are essentially random since the people mixing the tracks weren't listening to it. Some people ("purists") would rather listen to two-channel audio as the recording artists "intended", but others get much more enjoyment from the enveloping soundfield generated by one of the surround-sound decoders.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I admit that I am a 2ch purist. I spent many hours listening to high end, full range systems in well treated rooms. I think that's where my bias comes from. What's interesting is that I thought the FR of my speakers by them selves would be much better on their own because I do like the music when it was played in bypass mode. I think part of that was in my room, I felt I got a better center sound stage from the bypass mode then in stereo mode. But now, some how, I really like the center stage imaging I get when listening in stereo. I don't know why, but it sounds better with the 80.3 then it did with the 80.2. I guess I also felt that the bass I was getting from my mains alone was pretty good to my ears and that since I had full range speakers, using a sub was "cheating".


Your thoughts on the surround modes for 2ch also are why I mainly stuck with only 2ch for music. Unless it was a SACD or DVD-A that was specifically mixed for 5.1. If it was a disk that was mixed in 5.1, then I really like the multi-channel effect. The center and surrounds are utilized the way they should be. But with 2ch music, whenever I used to try one of those "matrixed" style it always did not do anything for me in my room. I will continue to experiment, now that I have the surrounds in a different spot. But I do like the stereo mode includes the sub now then I did before.


----------



## Selden Ball

FWIW, Dolby Prologic in Music mode on the 80.3 includes several settings to control how much audio gets redirected to the different speakers. (See page 56 of the owner's manual.) Including the center but not the surrounds supposedly can be quite effective. The Neo:X implementation doesn't seem to have as much flexibility. (The two seem to vary a lot in their features among the various receivers and pre/pros.)


----------



## MIkeDuke

I will probably just experiment and see if any are to my liking. I am guessing not too many people like all channel stereo, concert, or club modes etc... We shall see what, if any I like more then just plain stereo in my room.


----------



## Selden Ball

I mostly agree with your opinion of the different modes. Most are fun to play with once, but then they can be ignored. However, I think "all channel stereo" is intended to be a "party mode" -- so you can wander around a large room (or house) full of people and hear the same music from whatever speaker you're close to. But in that case, all-channel-monaural probably would be better.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I am not saying though that I think these modes that take a 2ch signal and mix them to multi-channel are bad. When I was over at Craig's house that's how we listened to regular cd's and it sounded fantastic. TBH, I forget what mode is was mostly in, but I really enjoyed it. Now he has a 9.3 setup so it's possible the front width speakers and extra side and surround speakers he has helps make the music sound better in his room when using one of those other modes. For me, unless it is a mix that is multi-channel from the beginning, *I* can't hear the benefit in *my* room.


As two examples. the SACD of DSOTM and a mulit channel SACD I have of Junior Wells sound freaking awsome with all my speakers playing. But if I put on an Allman Brothers, TOOL, or any other regular CD, those effects don't sound nearly as good in my room. But as I said, in Craig's room, those modes sound really really good. So who knows. I gues the best answer is just experiment and see what sounds the best.


----------



## Selden Ball

Yup.


What matters is what you enjoy the most in your room with your system!


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. I had a chance to watch a "real" movie







in my system. I watched OHF. WOW did that sound fantastic. The sound was just so good. To me, everything was just the way it should be. Vocals were clear. The sound track was awesome. The sound that came from the stuff off camera in the front L\R speakers was really great. Whether it was just sound effects like a truck or shooting, or individuals talking. The surrounds also sounded fantastic in their new positions. A really good sense of 360 degree movement at times. And of course the low stuff. The SubMersive and Crowson really loved those parts. I read that the Washington Monument coming down had strong low bass and believe me it does, My Crowson picked all of that stuff up. And I did not even have it that loud. I was only at -16db. But it was enough for me to get all the effects I wanted. Plus being able to close my door was a plus also.


TBH, I never really listen that loud. I used to think anything above -16db in my room was overwhelming. But not now. Now, -16db sounds insanely good







. There was no strain and I know that I could even go louder if I wanted to because we did that when we were testing the system after Craig set and calibrated everything. I really don't know how he does it, but every time Craig does a calibration on my system, it sounds better then the last time he did it. I know I have said this before, and it is true every time I say it, but my system has NEVER sounded better then it does right now. The idea that I could go above -16 without overwhelming my ears in my room is really impressive to me. So I am a very happy camper. I can't wait to check out some other movies like Oblivion and Oz. But as I said before, I have to thank Craig a lot for setting up and calibrating everything the way he did. I can't wait to check out all the movies I have but waited on watching.


----------



## audioguy

My $0.02.


The improvement u r getting has much less to do with the 80.3 vs the 80.2 and MUCH more to do with Audyssey. I have probably run Audyssey (Pro) 50 times. And while I get the mic positions close to the the same spot each time, it is certainly not exact (my OCD has its limits). It is very typical that each set of measurements produces a certain sound that is different (either better or worse) than the last time.


That said, my bet is that the reason it sounds better is that Craig with both his skill AND some good fortune, got everything to click more so than the last time.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/780#post_23747658
> 
> 
> My $0.02.
> 
> 
> The improvement u r getting has much less to do with the 80.3 vs the 80.2 and MUCH more to do with Audyssey. I have probably run Audyssey (Pro) 50 times. And while I get the mic positions close to the the same spot each time, it is certainly not exact (my OCD has its limits). It is very typical that each set of measurements produces a certain sound that is different (either better or worse) than the last time.
> 
> 
> That said, my bet is that the reason it sounds better is that Craig with both his skill AND some good fortune, got everything to click more so than the last time.


I agree. I read and was told that the SQ difference between the 80.2 and 80.3 was just about nil. So I knew what I should expect in the SQ department. I am just impressed that after this particular calibration, the results were the best I have ever heard in my room. I have never had a Pro cal for Audyssey in my system though. But with results like I have, that bare themselves out in the charts above, I really don't see what a Pro cal would get me.


P.S my room is not the easiest to setup. I am on the second floor with a semi main road outside my window. I think Craig said I have about 15db of ambient noise coming from the road(if he reads this maybe he can confirm). But I know that I was out of the room when he was running Audyssey so I am not sure what he did with the mike all the time. I do know that at one time he was trying to the setup, a big tractor trailer came rolling down the road and Craig was sure that would screw things up. Either he took that measurement again, or it really did not affect the final outcome too much. In the end, my room is honestly one of the best rooms I have ever heard. Especially when you consider it is a small room, with only a single sub and just a 5.1 setup.


----------



## Selden Ball

If the TV actually can't do 24fps, then something (either tv or server) must convert any 24fps signal to 60fps, which certainly will cause judder. Some people are much more sensitive to it than others.


In many cases, DVDs (unlike BDs) do _not_ have 24fps progressive video. Trying to convert their video to 24fps is fraught with peril. They're often a mix of progressive and interlaced video, and too often the flags saying which signal is being provided are wrong.


You might try playing a disc through the media player to see if the visible results are better than the ripped video. If the disc indeed is better, then you'll need to consider everything in the chain from the ripping settings to the file playback settings.


I hope these comments help a little.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Selden. So here is another update. First, the specs on my TV does say it can do 24fps, but it looks like it is doing 60fps when I go into the menu system and that is something that I can not change because it is grayed out. At least in THX mode which is where I had my TV calibrated. Anyway, so I made sure that the one box was unchecked in the sever and that my Integra was set for just 1080p. Then I watched a few minutes of a few DVD's that I have on the server. Now, I know the movie is crappy, but 2Fast 2Furious is actually a good movie test this on. It is a Universal Studio title. You can see the chop big time as the globe comes into view. But with the server and Integra setup the way I have it, it looks much better. The intro is much smoother and the chop is minimal. Gladiator is another movie where you can see this, I also say that I flipped back and forth from 1080p to 1080p/24 in the Integra and the difference was easy to see


Now I will say that on some parts, mainly long pans across the TV, the chop may be a little more evident, but a few minutes into the film, or after a pan, it "corrects" itself and everything looks OK. So I am going to leave it just the way it is and not touch it. I watched a few minutes of No Country for Old Men which is a DVD rip, and that looked fine and I really did not notice any chop so I think I am back in business. Thanks for the help though. Now I can back to backing up and then ripping again







.


----------



## Selden Ball

Great! Have fun!


----------



## MIkeDuke

I have backed up about 40 movies so far. That leaves about 70 more movies







(mostly BR) to back up, plus my series of Dead Wood, Bleach and the mini series the stand and then I can start ripping again. It's taking time, but I would rather be safe then sorry.


----------



## MIkeDuke

So last night I watched a Santana Concert I have on the server. I was watching with someone else. The concert is very colorful in the outfits and the background. About halfway through the person I was watching it wit said "that picture looks really good and the colors are so vibrant. I admit that gave me a little







on the inside because even though it's small, it does look very good.


----------



## MIkeDuke

It would not be me if it was not bad news. The center channel on my 3ch Bryston went out. I get no sound and the color LED is not even lit. So until I get the mental strength to try and ship it back, I am going to be running a phantom center. It does not sound that bad but I am not looking forward to taking out the amp and shipping it back to Bryston. When I do that, I will be unable to watch movies but at least I can listen to music.


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/810#post_23889244
> 
> 
> It would not be me if it was not bad news. The center channel on my 3ch Bryston went out. I get no sound and the color LED is not even lit. So until I get the mental strength to try and ship it back, I am going to be running a phantom center. It does not sound that bad but I am not looking forward to taking out the amp and shipping it back to Bryston. When I do that, I will be unable to watch movies but at least I can listen to music.



Uh oh! Well hey, a Phantom center done right can go a VERY long way. Without sharing an embarrassing story, I'll just say that I've been tricked through an entire movie with the Focus SE's. This was possible due to an imaging track on a test disc that let me set my speaker positions perfectly down to the inch! I can send you the file, if you want to pin-point your speaker positioning to get that perfect phantom center.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/810#post_23889880
> 
> 
> Uh oh! Well hey, a Phantom center done right can go a VERY long way. Without sharing an embarrassing story, I'll just say that I've been tricked through an entire movie with the Focus SE's. This was possible due to an imaging track on a test disc that let me set my speaker positions perfectly down to the inch! I can send you the file, if you want to pin-point your speaker positioning to get that perfect phantom center.


Hey Matt. I had to do a phantom center before when my actual center channel was damaged so I know it can sound not half bad. I also think my speakers are set up just right for imaging because it still sounds like there is info coming from right in front of me. It's just that for me, it is a real pain in the ass to disconnect it and then be out that amp for a while. The truth is, a few years ago(2011) I had a problem with my 4b-ST and I also had a problem with my 5b-ST(which is the amp that is having the issue now.) That is a 3ch amp that powers my center and surrounds. The last time I had a problem with THIS amp was with one of the channels that was powering my left surround speaker but that was a few years ago, I just can't get a break







. I finally get my system back up and now I have to send something else out. At least I can still watch TV and listen to music but it still sucks.


----------



## Selden Ball

Mike,


If you rerun Audyssey with the center channel disconnected, it'll automatically configure your system to have a phantom center, redirecting the center channel audio to the two front speaker channels. In other words, you can continue to watch movies and not lose the dialog.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Selden Ball*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/810#post_23891218
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> 
> If you rerun Audyssey with the center channel disconnected, it'll automatically configure your system to have a phantom center, redirecting the center channel audio to the two front speaker channels. In other words, you can continue to watch movies and not lose the dialog.


Thanks for the info. I did not know that but there is no way I am doing that. Craig worked too hard to get it sounding just right and I am not going to re do Audyssey and then have to re run it AGAIN once I get it back. I will just live with no center and the phantom setup as long as I have to. But thanks for the tip.


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/810#post_23890712
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Matt. I had to do a phantom center before when my actual center channel was damaged so I know it can sound not half bad. I also think my speakers are set up just right for imaging because it still sounds like there is info coming from right in front of me. It's just that for me, it is a real pain in the ass to disconnect it and then be out that amp for a while. The truth is, a few years ago(2011) I had a problem with my 4b-ST and I also had a problem with my 5b-ST(which is the amp that is having the issue now.) That is a 3ch amp that powers my center and surrounds. The last time I had a problem with THIS amp was with one of the channels that was powering my left surround speaker but that was a few years ago, I just can't get a break
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I finally get my system back up and now I have to send something else out. At least I can still watch TV and listen to music but it still sucks.


I totally hear ya!  I'm shocked that Bryston amps are having that failure rate in your system--they're supposed to be built like tanks, eh?  They definitely cost as much as an M1 Abrams.







  Do you think something with the power to the room might be causing damage?  Do you use a power conditioner?


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/810#post_23891605
> 
> 
> I totally hear ya!  I'm shocked that Bryston amps are having that failure rate in your system--they're supposed to be built like tanks, eh?  They definitely cost as much as an M1 Abrams.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think something with the power to the room might be causing damage?  Do you use a power conditioner?


Yes I use a power conditioner. I use an Audience power conditioner. I have no idea why I have had two problems with one amp and one problem with another(Granted I don't think all the problems happened while I was using my current power conditioner.) It just really sucks that I have to go through this again and be partially down again for who knows how long.


----------



## MIkeDuke

So I got a hold of Bryston. I can send it back and they will take care of it. I have the box and hopefully I have the packing material. They don't need the power cord so at least I can leave that plugged into my power conditioner. I think I will try and get some of the break down this weekend and hopefully ship it out next week.


----------



## DMark1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/810#post_23894565
> 
> 
> So I got a hold of Bryston. I can send it back and they will take care of it. I have the box and hopefully I have the packing material. They don't need the power cord so at least I can leave that plugged into my power conditioner. I think I will try and get some of the break down this weekend and hopefully ship it out next week.



Are you sure it is not something simple like a burned out fuse? I would check that before boxing it up and sending it back to Bryston...


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DMark1*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/810#post_23896241
> 
> 
> Are you sure it is not something simple like a burned out fuse? I would check that before boxing it up and sending it back to Bryston...


That's what they said. But to be honest, we just spent 15-20 min breaking everything down and labeling all the cables. I am not going to try and replace a fuse, re connect everything, then potentially have it not work, then dis-connect everything AGAIN because I have to ship it out. If it's a fuse, let them do it and I will just deal with it but I will feel better that it was only a fuse. I know it's not what other people would do, but oh well. I march to my own drum







.

EDIT: We will give it a try and see what happens. The guy told me what to look for in a bad fuse so we shall see.


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/810#post_23897272
> 
> 
> That's what they said. But to be honest, we just spent 15-20 min breaking everything down and labeling all the cables. I am not going to try and replace a fuse, re connect everything, then potentially have it not work, then dis-connect everything AGAIN because I have to ship it out. If it's a fuse, let them do it and I will just deal with it but I will feel better that it was only a fuse. I know it's not what other people would do, but oh well. I march to my own drum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> EDIT: We will give it a try and see what happens. The guy told me what to look for in a bad fuse so we shall see.



Recalling this process from the Integra break-down, it might be useful to permanently label the cables so you don't have to do it each time, ya know? I do hope it's just a fuse though.... much better than lugging that beast to UPS.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/810#post_23897551
> 
> 
> Recalling this process from the Integra break-down, it might be useful to permanently label the cables so you don't have to do it each time, ya know? I do hope it's just a fuse though.... much better than lugging that beast to UPS.


We do have them labeled now. Checking for the fuses was easier then I thought. Once we had the amp out, it was just a simple little thing that popped out of the back of the amp. There were two fuses in there and sure enough, one looked bunt out. So I will try to get a replacement and see what happens. I really hope that works. As far as the labeling goes, it does help but my space is so small too work with, it's still a pain the butt. So hopefully, this will do it. Wish me luck and kudos to Bryston for making the checking of the fuses not a big deal.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Bad news. The fuses did not work. The guy from Bryston said this "If it looked blackened there is likely a problem with the channel drawing large amounts of current, which it would need to be sent in to have repaired". The fuse was blackened so I guess there is a bigger problem. I will send it out as soon as I can. I just hope the turn around time is not too long.


----------



## Selden Ball

Too bad










Hopefully they'll be able to fix it quickly.


----------



## MIkeDuke

The guy said two weeks if nothing really major is wrong with it, so that is what I am hoping for. I am mailing it out today (Sat). We shall see. But at least I can still watch TV and movies in 2ch mode, which doesn't sound THAT bad. Plus I can still listen to music. So that helps ease the pain a bit







.


----------



## MIkeDuke

So Bryston got my amp and said it shouldn't be long until it's back on its way to me. I hope so.


----------



## pcweber111

Can't be any worse than your experience with Onkyo (Integra).


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pcweber111*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/840#post_23922639
> 
> 
> Can't be any worse than your experience with Onkyo (Integra).


According to Bryston, they said I could get it back in 2 weeks(assuming nothing major is wrong with it). That would be outstanding and much better then the 50+ days I waited for the Integra. But, I did get an 80.3 out of that deal so it ended up all good. I don't think I will be getting a Bryston amp out of this deal. But that's fine. The Bryston sounds fine to me. I need to do some recon first anyway if I wanted new amps to see of they would fit where I have to put them. But I will leave that for another day.


----------



## pcweber111

True. Getting an 80.3 was an upside. Hopefully you don't have any issues with it and you can get your amp back in a decent amount of time so you can start enjoying your system for the holidays!


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pcweber111*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/840#post_23925135
> 
> 
> True. Getting an 80.3 was an upside. Hopefully you don't have any issues with it and you can get your amp back in a decent amount of time so you can start enjoying your system for the holidays!


Well, I did not want to say anything until I had more proof, but I did see a few flickers last night and then a bigger one later on. Hopefully it's nothing but now I have to keep an eye on it. If the 80.3 goes on me, I am not sure what I would do. Time will tell though.


----------



## Selden Ball

Mike,


I trust you're keeping the 80.3 cold, with plenty of ventilation.


(Overheating can cause intermittent problems which eventually become permanent.)


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Selden Ball*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/840#post_23926731
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> 
> I trust you're keeping the 80.3 cold, with plenty of ventilation.
> 
> 
> (Overheating can cause intermittent problems which eventually become permanent.)


Well, my rack is completely open
 
 


I really can't make it more open then that. It's on the bottom right rack. There are no sides or real back to this rack. It's really the best I can do. Clicking on the top pic will give you a good idea of the open space I have. Like I said, now I have to really keep track what happens.


Not that I am saying that you are wrong Selden, but as I said, my rack is open and gets plenty of air. Craig had a 80.2 and 80.3 in a space that I think gets less air then I do and I don't recall him having this issue.


----------



## Selden Ball

Personally, I'd be happier with more open space above the pre/pro for ventilation. The shelf above it does provide some resistance to the flow of hot air rising from the circuitry. But I'm just OCD that way







My pre/pro and multi-channel amp are each on the top shelf of separate shelving units (but I don't have a turntable).


Some people add fans to make sure there's no buildup of heat. There are some computer fans available that can be powered from a USB output and are very quiet. But if it just feels warm when you put your hand on top of it, then there shouldn't be anything to worry about.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I did not put my hand on it so I can't say if it was just warm or hot. I can say that last night I did some copying on the server and then I watched a two and a half hour movie and then watched 40 min of Bleach last night and nothing happened so I am not going to worry or post anything until there is something to worry or post about. But, the fan idea does sound interesting. Do you have a link of one that you like and think might work in my setup? For instance, how big is it and how do you place it.

Thanks


----------



## BrolicBeast


I second the motion for a fan--I used two of them in my rack to ensure airflow from the projector's front vents, as well as airflow from the Lumagen RadianceMini 3D's vents.  One died (after 2 years of continuous running) and one is gathering dust, waiting for new equipment to keep cool.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Well, today was sort of a marathon day. I backed up something like 13 movies and I also watched a movie, so my system was on for a number of hours non stop. I didn't notice any thing out of the ordinary watching the movie or in the back end while I was copying so I might be OK. But I am not against a fan. If someone can show me what kind to look for.


----------



## pcweber111

You could go for something like this:

http://www.coolcomponents.com/Component-Cooling-System--9-Fan-Unit-_p_346.html


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pcweber111*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/840#post_23930982
> 
> 
> You could go for something like this:
> 
> http://www.coolcomponents.com/Component-Cooling-System--9-Fan-Unit-_p_346.html


That one looks too big to be honest. But it seems the company may have some other ones that may work. I just don't know how I would place it in my system. One said that it could be placed right on top of the component. I will do some research myself but if there are any others out there, please let me know.

Thanks


----------



## MIkeDuke

Talk about service. They got the amp on the 7th and I got it back today, the 12th. Integra could take some cues from Bryston on customer service and repair turn around time







.


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/840#post_23938892
> 
> 
> Talk about service. They got the amp on the 7th and I got it back today, the 12th. Integra could take some cues from Bryston on customer service and repair turn around time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Wow!  Sounds like fast service is part of the "Bryston Experience!".....I guess they're at the top of the game for a reason!  Glad you got it back man--I know you were not looking forward to living for another extended period without the system up and running.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/840#post_23941817
> 
> 
> Wow!  Sounds like fast service is part of the "Bryston Experience!".....I guess they're at the top of the game for a reason!  Glad you got it back man--I know you were not looking forward to living for another extended period without the system up and running.


Yea. That would have really sucked. I will connect it up tomorrow and then I will be %100 again. Watching movies with only two speakers and sub can only sustain you for so long. I love my sound. I just wish I had a bigger TV. Who knows, maybe down the line. But the audio sounds as good as it does because Craig and Dennis worked their magic.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Back in business







. After some extra time connecting everything up because our labeling was not as clear as it could have been(it has since been corrected), everything is working great. It's awesome to have a real center and surrounds again. Plus, I am almost done my backup project. I just have about 20 more movies, then I have to do Dead Wood, Bleach, and The Stand and everything will be backed up on a separate drive. After that, I can start fresh burns again and I will just copy them to both drives right after the copy is done.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Hey Mike,


I saw your post on my build thread--what issues are you having with JRiver? You do NOT have to upgrade to MC19 for it to work properly. I am still using MC18 and plan to do so until MC19 becomes an attractive upgrade (i.e. major features not currently available).


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/840#post_23956537
> 
> 
> Hey Mike,
> 
> 
> I saw your post on my build thread--what issues are you having with JRiver? You do NOT have to upgrade to MC19 for it to work properly. I am still using MC18 and plan to do so until MC19 becomes an attractive upgrade (i.e. major features not currently available).



Hey Matt. I was hoping you would chime in. I just posted something in the Jriver thread:

Here is what I said
*I am getting two main messages with Bleach

one is Something went wrong with playback. File could not be found

another is Media center 18 has stopped working. Again. This is in bleach only at the moment*


I am getting this error message

Media Center had detected it did not shut down correctly after it was last run.

It is recommended that you allow Medial center to restart some settings in an effort to prevent this from happening again.

Actions to take:

Use default window size

Disable 3rd party plug in

Use default library

All of those are checked.

Then I hit OK

Then a new screen comes up. It says this:

If you continue to experience problems, follow these steps.

1. Backup your library from File>Library>Backup Library

2 Uninstall media center

3 Reboot your machine

4 Re install the latest version of Media Center

5 Restore your library backup from step one.




Now as I said, most of the error messages when I try and play Bleach. The thing is, some work and some don't. In JRiver, I am just getting an error message that says something like it is not able to play the file. *But movies and other TV shows work and I think music works as well.* I admit that I am a bit uncomfortable about doing anything like they suggest.

When I go into the background of Jriver, t is now white instead of black. Same for when I am watching a movie and I mobe the mouse to the top of the screen. Now I should also say that I did watch one movie and one episode of Bleach without any issue tonight. I hope you can help me







.


Also to make sure I did not loose the majority of my stuff I did the following:


I went to file>library>backup library and backed it up. There is something on my desk top now called

MC Library Backup(media library with todays date. Was that what I was supposed to do?


Again. Any help would be appreciated. I don't know why it's only certain Bleach files though. Some work and some don't.

I know it seems like a specific issue and I really hope that I don't have to re-burn everything. If it's a Jriver thing, then maybe upgrading to MC 19 would help? Although

I am nervous about that as well since I did not install MC 18 on this machine and I would be nervous trying to do this on my own.

Any help or insight you can give me Matt would be most welcome.

Thanks


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK People. If anybody is in here, maybe someone can help me. I am a bit perplexed.

When I was first “copying” over all the episodes, I would test them first to make sure they worked. Once I was sure they were O.K I would place them in the correct season folder. During that process, I did not get one error at all. Then I would test it in Jriver “fancy” view and it worked. Now, in fancy view some don’t work. In the Windows side, if I double click an episode that know doesn’t work it still does not work. But here is the kicker, If I try and play an episode that is broken directly from the disk, it doesn’t work either. I just get a Jriver has experienced an error message. WTH. How can that be. How can they all work when I put them on, then when I finally get to a certain point, it fails. And if you really want to laugh, get this. The episodes that don’t work in the Baetis and Jriver, work when I put the disk in the OPPO.


And I still don’t know when I got that error that it turned my background white in the “backend”. In my experience that happens when there is some sort of error with windows. I still want to try and set that back so can you tell me how to do that again? But does anything I said above make sense? It’s just to strange. They actually are pretty far up in the episodes if I were to just buy them so I am wondering if I should just do that. Because it looks like the season after this one isn’t doing too well either. Unless I try to download them again in another format and try again.


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/840#post_23961639
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Matt. I was hoping you would chime in. I just posted something in the Jriver thread:
> 
> Here is what I said
> *I am getting two main messages with Bleach
> 
> one is Something went wrong with playback. File could not be found
> 
> another is Media center 18 has stopped working. Again. This is in bleach only at the moment*
> 
> 
> I am getting this error message
> 
> Media Center had detected it did not shut down correctly after it was last run.
> 
> It is recommended that you allow Medial center to restart some settings in an effort to prevent this from happening again.
> 
> Actions to take:
> 
> Use default window size
> 
> Disable 3rd party plug in
> 
> Use default library
> 
> All of those are checked.
> 
> Then I hit OK
> 
> Then a new screen comes up. It says this:
> 
> If you continue to experience problems, follow these steps.
> 
> 1. Backup your library from File>Library>Backup Library
> 
> 2 Uninstall media center
> 
> 3 Reboot your machine
> 
> 4 Re install the latest version of Media Center
> 
> 5 Restore your library backup from step one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now as I said, most of the error messages when I try and play Bleach. The thing is, some work and some don't. In JRiver, I am just getting an error message that says something like it is not able to play the file. *But movies and other TV shows work and I think music works as well.* I admit that I am a bit uncomfortable about doing anything like they suggest.
> 
> When I go into the background of Jriver, t is now white instead of black. Same for when I am watching a movie and I mobe the mouse to the top of the screen. Now I should also say that I did watch one movie and one episode of Bleach without any issue tonight. I hope you can help me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Also to make sure I did not loose the majority of my stuff I did the following:
> 
> 
> I went to file>library>backup library and backed it up. There is something on my desk top now called
> 
> MC Library Backup(media library with todays date. Was that what I was supposed to do?
> 
> 
> Again. Any help would be appreciated. I don't know why it's only certain Bleach files though. Some work and some don't.
> 
> I know it seems like a specific issue and I really hope that I don't have to re-burn everything. If it's a Jriver thing, then maybe upgrading to MC 19 would help? Although
> 
> I am nervous about that as well since I did not install MC 18 on this machine and I would be nervous trying to do this on my own.
> 
> Any help or insight you can give me Matt would be most welcome.
> 
> Thanks


Hey Mike,

 

I've encountered that error message before!  You must uncheck all three of those boxes.  With those boxes checked, Jriver reverts to a very basic version to make troubleshooting easier for showstopper issues.  It defauts to be most basic skin (which explains your white background) and does a few more unwelcome (to us) changes. Now, in a last-ditch resort, reinstalling MC18 is just as easy as installing any other software.  It's the configuring that's a pain.  Your content metadata is saved in the folders that contain the media files themselves, and not in Jriver (I found this out when I transferred my hard drives (and Jriver account) to another computer recently) and the Baetis comes with instructions for configuring Jriver.  Even if you had to re-install, you'd be up and running in no more than one evening.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/840#post_23992098
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Mike,
> 
> 
> I've encountered that error message before!  You must uncheck all three of those boxes.  With those boxes checked, Jriver reverts to a very basic version to make troubleshooting easier for showstopper issues.  It defauts to be most basic skin (which explains your white background) and does a few more unwelcome (to us) changes. Now, in a last-ditch resort, reinstalling MC18 is just as easy as installing any other software.  It's the configuring that's a pain.  Your content metadata is saved in the folders that contain the media files themselves, and not in Jriver (I found this out when I transferred my hard drives (and Jriver account) to another computer recently) and the Baetis comes with instructions for configuring Jriver.  Even if you had to re-install, you'd be up and running in no more than one evening.


Thanks Matt. Now, I am wondering if it is the files themselves though. I am only saying that because when I try and try and play an episode in what I call "the back end" or widows side(directly from the folder), I still get a Jriver error. It's strange because not every episode is having an issue. Dennis was the one who installed and configured Jriver for me so I don't know how easy that would be for me to do on my own. We have MyPc setup so I might try and setup a session with Dennis at some point to see what he sees when I try and run an episode. But here is the thing. Why would they stop now? When I copied each episode I tested it in the temp folder where I put everything that I rip into and then I test it again once I move it into Jriver and everything worked when I was doing the actual move. So I don't know. It will still be a pain for me I have a feeling.







.


----------



## Geoff4RFC

Happy Thanksgiving


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Geoff4RFC*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/840#post_24006467
> 
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving


Thanks. Same to you. I am having the old traditional Chicken Parm and spaghetti







. On another note, I am working through my Bleach issue. Dennis sent me some things to try but they did not work. At that point I just decided that the files were bad. So I just downloaded them again and hoped for the best. So, I downloaded them, re-named them the Jriver way and burned them to a disk. Then I copied them into the right folder and don't you know, they freakin' work now. So that's the good news. So I did seasons 9,10,11. I still need to do

12,13,14. The issue is 13 and 14 are really long. I am free member of the site were I download them so I am only allowed so many a day. I have a little work around but it will still probably take me at least 4 days to complete the rest of what I need. But at least I know that it works and I am very happy now.


Plus, I am completely done backing up my media to my other hard drive. So now I can get back to new ripping again. So yea, things are slowly moving in the right direction. It is work, but I am glad that I am doing this. And I have to say that the Baetis+Jriver for me is a really nice rig. I know others have home made ones or ones from other companies, but for me, someone who does not like to tinker, it's a fantastic choice.

Happy Thanks Giving to everybody







.


----------



## MIkeDuke

So I have been ripping. But, I started running into an issue. To make a long story short, the movies I were ripping, and then moving into the folders where Jriver looks, was no longer working the right way. Before, I would just copy and paste the movie into the right folder and it would just show up in Jriver. Now, for some strange reason, that no longer happens. I was really worried so I contacted Dennis. I told him what the issue was and he agreed it was strange. Then he said that I should try and import the movie manually. It's not %100 straight forward so he sent me some instructions. Don't you know those instructions worked. After I did what he said, the movie was there. But I still had no cover art. That I knew how to fix. A simple right click in Jriver and then "find cover art". Well, that was the ticket. I still don't know why it is working like this now but it all seems good so I am cool with it. Not to mention I fixed bleach so that is %100 as well. So I just wanted to publicly thank Dennis for his help. He has been very patient with me which is no easy feat







. I still don't know why I have to do it myself now but again, as long as it works, I am cool with it. I still freakin love this server. Plus, this is showing me how powerful Jriver is. It is one bad ass piece of software. Anyway, back to ripping.


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Selden Ball*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/840#post_23928975
> 
> 
> Personally, I'd be happier with more open space above the pre/pro for ventilation. The shelf above it does provide some resistance to the flow of hot air rising from the circuitry. But I'm just OCD that way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My pre/pro and multi-channel amp are each on the top shelf of separate shelving units (but I don't have a turntable).
> 
> 
> Some people add fans to make sure there's no buildup of heat. There are some computer fans available that can be powered from a USB output and are very quiet. But if it just feels warm when you put your hand on top of it, then there shouldn't be anything to worry about.


Mike, the 80.3 is more or less, an Onkyo. Here's how you can check the unit's internal temp sensor:


All buttons pressed on the front of the unit

- Press and hold 'Display'

- while holding 'Display', press the 'Standby/Power' button

- release both and press 'Tone'


This will show the temp as T: in Centigrade/Celsius


If your temps are below 30C, you're fine and have no problems whatsoever. If your temps get anywhere near 50c, you want to put fans on it ASAP, as it appears even the Onkyo 818 generation (same geenration as the 5010 and 80.3), are still experiencing HDMI board failures.


If you want to put fans on the unit, I've been using these and they're great!
http://www.coolerguys.com/840556094272.html 

I use 2 of those and this controller
http://www.coolerguys.com/840556090236.html 


They move a lot of air.


With no fans at all on the 5008 and the 5008 powering 5 speakers (bridged to the Fronts), the internal temps using the procedure detailed above hit ~55C after playing Despicable Me at Reference in 70f ambient room temps. Placing these http://www.xoxide.com/evercool-harddrive-cooler-black.html cheapy fans on the unit dropped the temps so they only reached 47-48C after playing DM at Reference again. Using external amps to power the LCR and only powering the surrounds with the same movie at Reference resulted in the temps topping out at about 45C.


With the coolerguys fans, the temp now doesn't really ever go above 25C.



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Max. I will try that once I have it running for awhile. Is there anything special I have to do to get out of the "temp mode?" Will a simple power cycle do it? So with those coolerguys fans, I can place them directly on top of objects? It seems like you are saying just place it right on top of the 80.3. Can I do that with my amps as well? My amps can't get very warm also. I don't think it is doing them any harm because the specs say they are supposed to through out a lot of heat. But, If I can cool them down, it may make my small room not as hot when I have the system going in the summer time.


----------



## djbluemax1

No, you don't even need to power cycle to get out of the Temp display. If you hit any of the buttons like BD, CBL/SAT, HOME, SETUP etc. it'll automatically switch to the display of whatever button you pressed, exiting the Temp display.


Yes, you can place the fans directly on any piece of equipment with vents on the top. With the 80.3, the hottest part is the HDMI/GPU located in the right rear corner (when viewed from the front). The fans come with peel-n-stick foam rubber feet so you don't risk scratching anything. They're impeller type blower fans, so they suck air in the center and blow it out the side (so you can aim where the air is blown).


They only need ~1.1" of clearance so they're optimal for folks with avr racks with insufficient ventilation space above the equipment.


Yes, you can use them on amps that have top vents. It will keep the amps cooler, but NOT the room. Bear in mind that it cools the components by increasing air flow/circulation over the hot parts, allowing them to air cool more effectively. The heat though, is still pumped in the room (and the small fans put out a tiny bit of heat on top of everything else. That's why you cannot cool down a closed room with a fan. It might cool YOU down due to convective cooling from evaporation, but if you use an accurate thermostat, you'll see the room's temp increase with the fan on.




Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK Max. I tried what you said. It brought me to another menu system, but there was nothing that resembled or showed me how to get a temp reading. Maybe I did it wrong. I will try again at another time. Thanks for the info on the fans though. I may think about it anyway.


----------



## MIkeDuke

So I am tyring to work on my regular DVD's. I downloaded Handbrake. It seems a little complicated. It has many options. I tried to the options the right way. In the picture section I left everything as default. I made the container MKV. I left Anamorphic loose And modules at 2. Then in the video section Video Codec was H.264((x264). I left Frame rate same as source and variable frame rate was selected with a radio button. There was some other stuff that I left as is. So then I ripped it. When it was done, the audio sounded fine but the video was all messed up. Should I change the video codec to MPEG-4 and try again?


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. So I have a few threads going on here to try and figure this out. In the HTPC section I have a thread. I hope what some suggested is wrong. He said that maybe my video card is not that good. But my thinking is, if it's good enough for BR's, it should be good enough for regular DVD's. Also, on the Jriver forum someone else said to make sure I have at least the latest version of MC18. He said that he was having some issues with playback and the upgrade helped. I really hope it is not a video card issue because if it is, I am really hosed.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I am going to just go with it. I am busy ripping regular DVD's. I think I can live with it. I may upgrade to a newer server in the future that should handle regular DVD's better because it will have a better video card. So, I will just deal with it for now and see what happens in time. I still love it and I can't wait until my media is on there. Anyway, Happy new year every one







.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Well, with help at the Jriver forum, I think my "issue" has been solved. Regular DVD's look very nice now and they have no judder that is easily perceived by me. So I am glad that I asked. Now I have no problems ripping regular DVD's to save space rather then buy everything over again. There are still some movies that I want in BR because I really really like them, but the rest will just stay as regular DVD's


----------



## Selden Ball

What kinds of adjustments did you have to make?

Or can you provide a link to the Jriver discussion?


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Selden Ball*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24214295
> 
> 
> What kinds of adjustments did you have to make?
> 
> Or can you provide a link to the Jriver discussion?


Sure. First, what I did was I went into my Integra setup and I dropped the resolution down from 1080p/24 to just 1080p. That helped. Even though I think my TV can handle /24 content doing that made the picture look better. The rest of the stuff was with the server. I made sure in the server software (Jriver) setting was set to 1080p. I am trying to think if there was anything else I did in Jriver. I have to double check but I think I also unchecked these two items in Jriver

Hardware accelerate

and

Video clock

But even after doing all of that it still wasn't great. I was still seeing motion issues. So I started a thread in the Jriver forum. Here is the link
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=86201.0 

You want to jump to "reply 14" and it really picks up at "reply 23". This stuff deals with the actual video card in the server itself. As I said, regular DVD's look really good now and I have zero complaints. I am so glad that I asked the question over there and I was lucky enough to get some people who gave me ideas I never would have thought of on my own.


----------



## Selden Ball

Thanks!


----------



## MIkeDuke

No problem. I am glad that I was finally able to get to the heart of the matter.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. Another video update. Things did not work out as well as I had hoped. I tried ripping The Day After Tomorrow on DVD. Holy crap did that look just awful. I mean, it was un-watchable. I also tried X-Men 2, again the result was just horrific. I know I am using harsh language but that's how bad it is. So, I made some hard choices of what I _really_ want on the server. I separated those and I will be buying them again. The rest are movies that I like but it's not imperative that they are on the server so I am just going to leave them be and just put them in the oppo when I want to watch them. So some DVD's looked OK but the few looked really bad. Oh well. I guess I can't have it all. That's OK though. I will have enough of my movies and music on the server once I am done to keep me happy. So my regular DVD experiment is over. Nothing but BR on the server from now on.


----------



## MIkeDuke

What's really annoying is how inconstant DVD rips are. I watched Firefox last night which is a DVD rip. It really was watchable. I would say there were parts of judder and then it would be fine for a nice period of time and then maybe a little more judder then fine again. But the movie was certainly watchable. In fact, that might be one of the first DVD movies I watched from beginning to end. It really was not that bad. I have not watched all of my DVD rips but if they are like what I just watched, I can be happy. But, I am still not going to put any more on and I am re purchasing some that either have sub titles or ones that I really like and I want to look great. It's kind of strange though that some DVD's would be un-watchable and some would be OK. Go figure.


----------



## Selden Ball

I really don't know enough about this, but I'm wondering if part of the problem might be poor matching of "flags" (which tell the decoder how the video was translated into the on-disk format -- like the pull-down or 24fps info) and how the video actually was recorded on the disc. DVD (and BD) hardware players apparently can recognize when the flags aren't right, but maybe the commonly available computer-based decoders simply can't handle them correctly and/or don't have access to them.


----------



## MIkeDuke

That's an interesting thought. TBH, I did not even know about the "flags" thing. As I said, to make life easy on my self, I will get the movies I REALLY like and I watch a lot and buy them again in BR. The others, will just stay in disk form and I will just use the OPPO for those. I mean, it's not like I am not using the server. I have over 200 movies+TV series and mini series and a lot of those movies are BR's. So I am fine with it now. I am in the middle of buying the ones I really want on there so it's all good.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK, Just another shameless self post. I watched A Good Day To Die Hard. I know it's not the best but it's a nice, quick action film. One thing is that I am realizing is that -18 on my Integra is a pretty good level for me. I can hear the dialog well. The Sound Track and action sequences are good. The bass on the big moments are there and with the Crowson, it gives me the great tactile feeling. Now can I go louder? Of course I can. I would probably feel comfortable going up to -15 or -14. I know that when Craig was over we went even louder then that, but for everyday watching, and still have it be fun, -18 seems to be the spot. Now that's for newer movies. On older movies I typically have to louder then that. But at -18, that Die Hard movie was great. There were a few sweeps that made me say Holy Crap that was awesome. I know that is way lower then most people listen to. Most levels I see are -10 or higher. I have experienced -3 and even reference so I know what that's like. But in my room, I don't feel the need to do that.


On another front. it the image filled the entire screen without letter box bars and without me having to use the "fill" options on my TV. I thought that was great as well. So I was curious as to what aspect ratio it was. It was 1:85.1. That was great on my 16x9 TV. I was wishing all movies were like that. I remember reading, I think, where the new action films like the 2:35.1 or 2:40.1 format. Die Hard clearly is an action film so I thought the 1:85.1 ratio was interesting. Anyway, I am really impressed with the sound I got watching the film last night even at that low level(Thanks Craig). That's it for now.


----------



## djbluemax1

That's one of the things that Dennis Erskine mentions about HT builds: Get the noise floor of the room as low as possible, and you won't need to play anything quite as loud as even the softest dialogue is audible at lower levels. This can allow you to routinely use lower listening levels and still get full enjoyment of your system AND it increases the likelihood that you'll have great hearing to enjoy the system for a long, long time.



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *djbluemax1*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24388495
> 
> 
> That's one of the things that Dennis Erskine mentions about HT builds: Get the noise floor of the room as low as possible, and you won't need to play anything quite as loud as even the softest dialogue is audible at lower levels. This can allow you to routinely use lower listening levels and still get full enjoyment of your system AND it increases the likelihood that you'll have great hearing to enjoy the system for a long, long time.
> 
> 
> 
> Max


The problem is I am on the second floor facing a busy road so my noise floor isn't as low as I would like. In fact, when Craig was doing the calibration for me he had to scrap one of the readings because a huge truck went passing by. I should just sit in the room with an SPL meter for a few minutes and see what it really is. I don't know what "good" is supposed to be but I am probably above that. Regardless, it is still good enough where I don't have to crank it if I don't need to. If I can find my Rat Shack meter, I will see what it measures. Just for goofs.


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24388790
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *djbluemax1*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24388495
> 
> 
> That's one of the things that Dennis Erskine mentions about HT builds: Get the noise floor of the room as low as possible, and you won't need to play anything quite as loud as even the softest dialogue is audible at lower levels. This can allow you to routinely use lower listening levels and still get full enjoyment of your system AND it increases the likelihood that you'll have great hearing to enjoy the system for a long, long time.
> 
> 
> 
> Max
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is I am on the second floor facing a busy road so my noise floor isn't as low as I would like. In fact, when Craig was doing the calibration for me he had to scrap one of the readings because a huge truck went passing by. I should just sit in the room with an SPL meter for a few minutes and see what it really is. I don't know what "good" is supposed to be but I am probably above that. Regardless, it is still good enough where I don't have to crank it if I don't need to. If I can find my Rat Shack meter, I will see what it measures. Just for goofs.
Click to expand...

Well, if you want a comparison just for kicks, to see where your ballpark is located:

40-50db would be an average quiet living room

30db would be considered quiet.

A well built and thought out HT can be in the low 20db range.



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

If I can find my Rat shack meter I will give it a go and see what I come with. Thanks


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *djbluemax1*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24391356
> 
> 
> Well, if you want a comparison just for kicks, to see where your ballpark is located:
> 
> 40-50db would be an average quiet living room
> 
> 30db would be considered quiet.
> 
> A well built and thought out HT can be in the low 20db range.
> 
> 
> 
> Max


OK. Now, I can easily hear traffic outside my window. When I put my Rat Shack meter on, most of the time it doesn't even register. 60 is the lowest setting. Once in awhile during my quick test it went into the 50's with the highest being 58. Now, again I still can easily hear the traffic when nothing is being played. When a movie or music is being played I really can't hear much of the outside unless the part in the movie is totally quiet. But for the most part I am fine with it. I mean, I am near a very busy road so there is really nothing I can do about it. It's not in a basement or in a dedicated room. The loudest I would guess would be the low 60's but that is pretty rare. I know that it would drive other people insane but I am fine with it. When I watch movies at night the traffic dies down so it's not too bad. Oh well, what can you do.


----------



## Selden Ball

What you can do: use high density insulation in the exterior walls & multi-layer window glass. Window and door frames are available which are designed to minimize the amount of noise that gets in. But you probably have already done or considered those improvements.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Selden Ball*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24397421
> 
> 
> What you can do: use high density insulation in the exterior walls & multi-layer window glass. Window and door frames are available which are designed to minimize the amount of noise that gets in. But you probably have already done or considered those improvements.


Yea, I have thought about some of them. But most of them would be a pain. I have very heavy curtains (100 year old velvet) so that does more then my old blinds did. But trying to add more insolation is not as easy as I would like. It's OK for me. Last night I watched a movie and with the sound from the movie playing, you really can't hear the outside that much. I will just live with it. It's not like it ever bothered me before.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. Small, probably inconsequential to most people but I got my other DVD rack out of the room. So the two I had in the front of the room are gone and I only have the one left in the back corner. It does open the room up a bit more not having it there. The only thing in that spot now is a second fan in case the room gets too warm in the summer time. I will probably keep the rack in the back because that is full of movies that I like, just not enough to put on the server. So that's it. Down the road I may try and get a larger TV but if I go 50" or higher, it will require some rearrangement of the front of the room. Maybe some day.


----------



## Selden Ball

If that DVD shelving was in the same room with the speakers, then.....


It would be appropriate to run another Audyssey calibration, since the reflections are different now from what they were when the previous calibration was run, so things are going to sound somewhat different.


Of course, I understand why you might not want to do that without professional help.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Selden Ball*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24464722
> 
> 
> If that DVD shelving was in the same room with the speakers, then.....
> 
> 
> It would be appropriate to run another Audyssey calibration, since the reflections are different now from what they were when the previous calibration was run, so things are going to sound somewhat different.
> 
> 
> Of course, I understand why you might not want to do that without professional help.


Yea. It was in the same room. It was near my left front speaker but I don't think it was close enough to cause a first reflection on its own. But I have thought about what you said. I do have more bare wall space now. But I would not want to run Audyssey on my own. I would have to see if Craig would be willing to do it. We shall see. I don't want to drive him crazy by constantly re doing my room. I really have two DVD cases out of there now and only one in the rear of the room so I am sure there is some difference. But TBH, music and movies still sound really good so I don't know if it's worth the time and effort Craig would have to put in. I mean he is about 1 1/2 hours from me and I don't want him to come down just for that. If he ever gets down to my place again I may see if he wouldn't mind taking a few measurements and see what, if anything has changed. But I am not going to bring it up just for him to do that because in my mind, I don't want to seem like I am taking advantage of him. I am still happy with the sound so that's a good thing







.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Selden Ball*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24464722
> 
> 
> If that DVD shelving was in the same room with the speakers, then.....
> 
> 
> It would be appropriate to run another Audyssey calibration, since the reflections are different now from what they were when the previous calibration was run, so things are going to sound somewhat different.
> 
> 
> Of course, I understand why you might not want to do that without professional help.


Hi Selden,


Technically of course, you're right that any change in the room should require a re-run of Audyssey. However, practically speaking, I doubt these changes Mike has made will make a significant difference. The DVD racks he had in there were *loaded* with DVD's. They basically presented a virtual flat, reflective surface to the acoustics, which is quite similar to the bare walls he has left after their removal. There my have been a little bit of diffusion from the racks, but I expect it was negligible. Even if there was some, it would be well above the bass frequencies, and more in the range were Audyssey only looks to implement their "target curve." I doubt a re-run of Audyssey without the racks in place will materially impact the target curve in the mid's/highs.


Now, if he had added some acoustic absorption, or some real diffusion in place of the racks, then I would be insisting on an Audyssey re-run. Mike???










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24465466
> 
> 
> Hi Selden,
> 
> 
> Technically of course, you're right that any change in the room should require a re-run of Audyssey. However, practically speaking, I doubt these changes Mike has made will make a significant difference. The DVD racks he had in there were *loaded* with DVD's. They basically presented a virtual flat, reflective surface to the acoustics, which is quite similar to the bare walls he has left after their removal. There my have been a little bit of diffusion from the racks, but I expect it was negligible. Even if there was some, it would be well above the bass frequencies, and more in the range were Audyssey only looks to implement their "target curve." I doubt a re-run of Audyssey without the racks in place will materially impact the target curve in the mid's/highs.
> 
> *Now, if he had added some acoustic absorption, or some real diffusion in place of the racks, then I would be insisting on an Audyssey re-run. Mike???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> Craig


I see what you did there







. The next time you come over, you can give me your honest opinion, and a technical one if we take more measurements, But right now I still very satisfied with how it sounds. But I am not against placing more treatments(I would defer to what you recommend) in that bare spot. Whenever you come over we can explore that idea.


----------



## audioguy

Mike: What software are you using to rip your Blurays?


Are you playing them with JRiver??


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24565450
> 
> 
> Mike: What software are you using to rip your Blurays?
> 
> 
> Are you playing them with JRiver??


I bought MakeMKV.
http://makemkv.com/ 

Works great. It allows you to strip out all the junk. But, the disks are tricky sometimes. They may try and put more then one version and the program will pick both up. It's pretty easy to spot the "fake" though. Typically they don't have the high rez audio. If it a disk that has a regular and extended cut, that's easy. The one with the longer time is the extended. I also recommend using the "forced" subtitles on many of your disks. If it is an English movie, like Bourne, but it has some foreign parts, it will only translate the foreign stuff and leave the rest alone.


And yes, I play everything, music and movies back in Jriver. I love it. Having everything at my finger tips is so cool. I probably have it setup differently then most others but that's OK. I really like it for movies and music. If you have any other more specific questions, I will try and answer them.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I am glad I decided to do a basic backup system. One of my drives was failing but I had everything on a separate drive as well. So I bought 2 more drives and I am in the process of copying everything over to the new drive and I bought the other one as a "just in case" drive. I already re copied just over 60 movies from the backup to the main drive so it's moving pretty fast. It's sure faster then having to re rip everything. It was bound to happen I guess but the other ones seem fine so that's a good thing.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24604700
> 
> 
> I am glad I decided to do a basic backup system. One of my drives was failing but I had everything on a separate drive as well. So I bought 2 more drives and I am in the process of copying everything over to the new drive and I bought the other one as a "just in case" drive. I already re copied just over 60 movies from the backup to the main drive so it's moving pretty fast. It's sure faster then having to re rip everything. It was bound to happen I guess but the other ones seem fine so that's a good thing.


Good to see you're using the 7 P's of preparedness:

*P*rior *P*roper *P*lanning *P*revents *P*i$$ *P*oor *P*erformance!










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24605619
> 
> 
> Good to see you're using the 7 P's of preparedness:
> 
> *P*rior *P*roper *P*lanning *P*revents *P*i$$ *P*oor *P*erformance!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig


Yes it does. I would have been very upset without that backup. Now it's just a little time consuming. The magic number is 3 movies. 3 movies takes about 20 min to copy to the new drive. Then it just takes 2 secs to re import them into Jriver. I still love the overall convenience of having the server. Plus movies look great and music sounds great. Having all my music in one spot is great as well. If I am in the mood for different songs, it is just a click away to get to what I want. And I do have the Crowson setup just right for movies. I can play movies loud enough for them to be fun, and not worry about blowing it up. My over level that I watch movies at is probably much lower then everyone else's but that's OK. It's enough for me.


----------



## MIkeDuke

All right, I am thinking about a RAID solution again but I getting all confused on what I should look at. I looked at Buffalo but I am not sure about their track record. Then someone mentioned Qnap. It seems good but more expensive then what I was previously thinking about getting. Qnap was recommended to be by someone I trust who is in the computer field so I am assuming their stuff is good. I am basically just looking for a storage system that I could connect to my server and have it configured it a RAID 5 setup. Can that be done with 4 drives? That seems to be the most "affordable" one if I go the Qnap route.
http://www.qnapworks.com/TS-469L.asp 

If anybody in here has any thoughts, I would be grateful to hear them. Here is the other one
http://www.pc-pitstop.com/das/ds-sat05ue.asp 

I guess because it seems to be a no name one from that site is why it is not as highly recommended.

New Egg and BH have the Qnap one

They both list it for $569. Then I need to add the HD since that is just the box.

This is what is recommended
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1001306-REG/western_digital_4tb_wd_red_sata.html 

So when you add all that up, it is cheaper then buying it directly from Qnap but I admit, I am nervous about putting in all the drives my self. I would appreciate any feed back.

One more thing, it looks like the Qnap is running Linux but it also says:

Network Client Platform

Windows XP/ Vista/ Windows 7/8, Windows Server 2003/R2, 2008/R2, 2012, Mac OS X, Linux, UNIX

Since I am running Windows 7, I can assume it will work with server?


----------



## dharel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/870#post_24647700
> 
> 
> All right, I am thinking about a RAID solution again but I getting all confused on what I should look at. I looked at Buffalo but I am not sure about their track record. Then someone mentioned Qnap. It seems good but more expensive then what I was previously thinking about getting. Qnap was recommended to be by someone I trust who is in the computer field so I am assuming their stuff is good. I am basically just looking for a storage system that I could connect to my server and have it configured it a RAID 5 setup. Can that be done with 4 drives? That seems to be the most "affordable" one if I go the Qnap route.
> http://www.qnapworks.com/TS-469L.asp
> 
> If anybody in here has any thoughts, I would be grateful to hear them. Here is the other one
> http://www.pc-pitstop.com/das/ds-sat05ue.asp
> 
> I guess because it seems to be a no name one from that site is why it is not as highly recommended.
> 
> New Egg and BH have the Qnap one
> 
> They both list it for $569. Then I need to add the HD since that is just the box.
> 
> This is what is recommended
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1001306-REG/western_digital_4tb_wd_red_sata.html
> 
> So when you add all that up, it is cheaper then buying it directly from Qnap but I admit, I am nervous about putting in all the drives my self. I would appreciate any feed back.
> 
> One more thing, it looks like the Qnap is running Linux but it also says:
> 
> Network Client Platform
> 
> Windows XP/ Vista/ Windows 7/8, Windows Server 2003/R2, 2008/R2, 2012, Mac OS X, Linux, UNIX
> 
> Since I am running Windows 7, I can assume it will work with server?



Mike, I've been in IT for over 15 years so I thought I'd respond with my thoughts.


You mention directly connecting the storage to your server. If that's the case, your decision is a little easier since you can rule out what are called NAS (Network Attached Storage) units.


Do you know the specifications of your server, in terms of available ports for an external connection? You will likely have USB ports, but it would help to know if they are USB2.0 or USB3.0. USB3.0 offers a faster connection.


That being said, you need to determine how much storage you need/want. A solution like this from Buffalo would work, but you are limited to 4GB. Keep in mind, that what I linked to is only a 2 drive setup. Buffalo has other models with higher capacity. The key thing here is that the unit comes with the hard drives, and you would have to go directly to Buffalo for a replacement drive should one fail. This is one of the reasons the cost for such a unit is lower than purchasing a chassis and separate drives.


Moving on, we get to units like the Qnap you mention in your post. This is the direction I would take. You have more flexibility in terms of the amount of storage you get, based on the size of the drives you use. In addition, you are not locked into the vendor should a drive fail. You can simply replace it with any drive of the same capacity. Aside from Qnap, Drobo is another popular suggestion. Here's a listing of some of what Drobo offers. The BH listing offer solutions that include the chassis and drives. LaCie also makes some very nice external drive chassis. Of course, going this route is going to cost a bit more but you have the most flexibility and expand-ability.


Since these drive chassis are USB3.0, they should easily integrate with your Windows 7 based server. In addition, they all basically come with some type of rail that you attach to the hard drives so you can easily slide them into the chassis. You should have no issues getting the drives installed. Once the drive chassis is attached to your server, you will most likely need to access some type of configuration setup (via a web page, cd, etc.) to setup and configure the drive array.


In summary, it all comes down to how much storage you need and how much you'd like to spend.


I hope this reply helps. Fell free to PM me or respond back here should you need some more info on anything and I'll do my best to help out.


One last thing that I just remembered, RAID is not a solution for lost data/media. Meaning, you should always have a backup of whatever is stored on the drive array. Whether it's physical media like DVDs and CDs or even a backup to another external hard drive that is stored elsewhere, you should never fully rely on RAID alone.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks for that reply dharel.

Here is a link to my server
http://www.baetisaudio.com/Baetis_HT.php#features 


Here are the USB specs

USB 2.0/1.1 Ports (4 in total; 2 more in front) 4 in the back. One the front is being used for a dongle so I can get wireless to the server.

USB 3.0 Ports (2 in total) in back. So I really have a total of 4 USB connections that I can use for storage since as I said, one is being used for the dongle. One in the back is being used for a small drive for my music.

As far as performance goes, I am sure I am using some USB 2.0 connections and movies seem fine to me.

I found an affordable Qnap here
http://eaegis.com/collections/qnap-ts-469-pro/products/qnap-ts-469-pro-12tb-4x3tb-wd-red 

I guess I want to know if that would meet my need for storing movies and is it hard to setup. I mean right now, as I said I am only using individual 4TB drives. On each drive I have a folder for movies and a folder for TV shows. I then have Jriver look in the right folder. Will I be able to do the same thing with the RAID? I mean, how would it "look" in my windows environment? Will it see it as one drive and allow me to make one folder for movies and another one for TV shows and then just point Jriver to that drive as well? I also looked at Lacie, but to be honest, I was not sure which one to get. I mean all I want is a basic RAID 5 setup.

Thanks again for your help and any other info would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## dharel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/900#post_24656871
> 
> 
> Thanks for that reply dharel.
> 
> Here is a link to my server
> http://www.baetisaudio.com/Baetis_HT.php#features
> 
> 
> Here are the USB specs
> 
> USB 2.0/1.1 Ports (4 in total; 2 more in front) 4 in the back. One the front is being used for a dongle so I can get wireless to the server.
> 
> USB 3.0 Ports (2 in total) in back. So I really have a total of 4 USB connections that I can use for storage since as I said, one is being used for the dongle. One in the back is being used for a small drive for my music.
> 
> As far as performance goes, I am sure I am using some USB 2.0 connections and movies seem fine to me.
> 
> I found an affordable Qnap here
> http://eaegis.com/collections/qnap-ts-469-pro/products/qnap-ts-469-pro-12tb-4x3tb-wd-red
> 
> I guess I want to know if that would meet my need for storing movies and is it hard to setup. I mean right now, as I said I am only using individual 4TB drives. On each drive I have a folder for movies and a folder for TV shows. I then have Jriver look in the right folder. Will I be able to do the same thing with the RAID? I mean, how would it "look" in my windows environment? Will it see it as one drive and allow me to make one folder for movies and another one for TV shows and then just point Jriver to that drive as well? I also looked at Lacie, but to be honest, I was not sure which one to get. I mean all I want is a basic RAID 5 setup.
> 
> Thanks again for your help and any other info would be greatly appreciated.



Your server setup should be fine. Since you have the USB 3.0 ports, you should take advantage of those.


The QNAP setup you link to would be a perfect setup for you, as long as you don't mind the cost. In terms of setup, your server should see the QNAP chassis as one large drive. You can then segment the drive into folders as you describe.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dharel*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/900#post_24657300
> 
> 
> Your server setup should be fine. Since you have the USB 3.0 ports, you should take advantage of those.
> 
> 
> The QNAP setup you link to would be a perfect setup for you, as long as you don't mind the cost. In terms of setup, your server should see the QNAP chassis as one large drive. You can then segment the drive into folders as you describe.


Thanks. TBH, I am not a do it your self kind of guy. I was reading in another thread where someone was using something called FlexRaid and had 50TB of storage on it. I don't know anything about that or even where to begin to try and do that myself. I don't mind spending the money for convenience. I know a lot of people do but I don't. So if I get that one from that site, in RAID 5 configuration, I would get 6TB of unique media and 6TB to back that storage up.

They also have for a bit more this, which I did not see before.
http://eaegis.com/collections/qnap-ts-469-pro/products/qnap-ts-469-pro-16tb-4x4tb-wd-red 

It's only about $200 more but it will give me 8TB of storage instead of just 6TB. That may be worth it. Then you start getting above $2,000 and that may be pushing it. Thanks again. The one with the 4tb drives should act just like the one with the 3TB drives right? That may be the one. It seems like it's a good brand, and it looks like these are the replacement drives. I think think these are the replacement drives
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1001306-REG/western_digital_4tb_wd_red_sata.html 

I am sure if I do decide on the 3TB version I can find them easy enough as well.

Thanks again and feel free to add anything else you would like. This has been very helpful







.


----------



## dharel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/900#post_24657436
> 
> 
> Thanks. TBH, I am not a do it your self kind of guy. I was reading in another thread where someone was using something called FlexRaid and had 50TB of storage on it. I don't know anything about that or even where to begin to try and do that myself. I don't mind spending the money for convenience. I know a lot of people do but I don't. So if I get that one from that site, in RAID 5 configuration, I would get 6TB of unique media and 6TB to back that storage up.
> 
> They also have for a bit more this, which I did not see before.
> http://eaegis.com/collections/qnap-ts-469-pro/products/qnap-ts-469-pro-16tb-4x4tb-wd-red
> 
> It's only about $200 more but it will give me 8TB of storage instead of just 6TB. That may be worth it. Then you start getting above $2,000 and that may be pushing it. Thanks again. The one with the 4tb drives should act just like the one with the 3TB drives right? That may be the one. It seems like it's a good brand, and it looks like these are the replacement drives. I think think these are the replacement drives
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1001306-REG/western_digital_4tb_wd_red_sata.html
> 
> I am sure if I do decide on the 3TB version I can find them easy enough as well.
> 
> Thanks again and feel free to add anything else you would like. This has been very helpful
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



No worries, and my pleasure to help.


The last QNAP chassis you refer to is a NAS (Network Attached Storage) device. Rather than connect directly to your server, it connects to your network and you tell your server to access it's folders over your network (LAN). You can go that route if you wish. It will take a little bit more to get setup, but it isn't difficult.


FlexRaid allows you to use an old PC, load it up with drives and essentially create a homemade drive chassis. Again, not difficult, but more for a do it yourselfer.


You are looking at drive chassis that are bundled with the drive to ease purchase, which is absolutely fine. Keep in mind that with any of these chassis, you can use any drives you wish. So if a drive fails, and you can't find the exact replacement, you can use another drive as long as it is the same size or higher.


Lastly, check out this quick article on RAID. It'll help clarify things a bit.


You're on the right track. It's now just a matter of determining how much storage you need and what you wish to spend.


----------



## MIkeDuke

*"The last QNAP chassis you refer to is a NAS (Network Attached Storage) device. Rather than connect directly to your server, it connects to your network and you tell your server to access it's folders over your network (LAN). You can go that route if you wish. It will take a little bit more to get setup, but it isn't difficult."*

So I don't confuse myself







, which one could I connect directly to my server? Would the 3TB one work? Because that also says NAS but I think that's the one you said would be perfect for what I need.


Also,
*"One last thing that I just remembered, RAID is not a solution for lost data/media. Meaning, you should always have a backup of whatever is stored on the drive array. Whether it's physical media like DVDs and CDs or even a backup to another external hard drive that is stored elsewhere, you should never fully rely on RAID alone."*

So now I need a backup of my backup? I thought thr RAID would do that. I would put all my media on the RAID, then if a drive in the RAID went bad, I could just replace it and be good to go. This is why I was concerned about going this way. It just seems to get more confusing. It's not you. You are explaining it very well. It's me and my trying to understand how this all works.

I mean, I could just keep on doing what I am doing. That is I have two main drives and two backup drives. When I put a movie on one drive, I put a backup copy on the other drive. The downside is when a drive goes bad(like it did a few weeks ago), I have to manually copy everything over myself. I figured a RAID would be easier if I lost a drive. Just replace it and it rebuilds what was lost automatically. I thought if I got a RAID, it would make my life easier and give me potentially more space per USB port that I have. Sorry if it seems like this stuff is basic and sorry if you feel you keep repeating yourself.

If you can point out which one is right for what I want to do that would be great.

The other one that I am 99% sure will work for me is this
http://www.pc-pitstop.com/das/ds-sat05ue.asp 

I could fill it up with all 4TB drives RAID 5 and be set. But I don't know about the quality. That's why I was looking at QNAP stuff. As long as it fit my needs.


----------



## dharel

I completely missed that spec on the one QNAP chassis. Qnap is all NAS, meaning the drive chassis connects to your network rather than directly to your server. QNAP does not offer USB, direct connected drive chassis.


My recommendation would then be to go with something from Drobo, like this . Here is the spec on the Drobo site itself.


I know this seems confusing, and I apologize for the misdirection regarding those QNAP units. I know plenty of people that use Drobo storage chassis and they all sing high praise for them. The B&H link I provided, is a fantastic deal for the chassis and drives. I've purchased many items from B&H, so there should be no concern or worry there.


I'm an IT guy, so the notion that RAID is not a backup has been drilled into me for years. As such, I tend to always pass that bit of info along. Having RAID storage often provides a false sense of security. Yes, if one drive fails you can easily swap it out and continue humming along. But, what happens if more than 1 drive should fail or the drive chassis itself has an issue causing data loss? It may seem like that would be a rare occurrence, but it can and does happen when you least expect it. Ask me how I know.


In your situation, you may be fine with having your server and storage as a copy of your physical discs. In this sense, your physical DVD and Bluray media is your backup. Essentially, what I'm suggesting is that you always have a way of restoring what is on your server/storage.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dharel*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/900#post_24659359
> 
> 
> I completely missed that spec on the one QNAP chassis. Qnap is all NAS, meaning the drive chassis connects to your network rather than directly to your server. QNAP does not offer USB, direct connected drive chassis.
> 
> 
> My recommendation would then be to go with something from Drobo, like this . Here is the spec on the Drobo site itself.
> 
> 
> I know this seems confusing, and I apologize for the misdirection regarding those QNAP units. I know plenty of people that use Drobo storage chassis and they all sing high praise for them. The B&H link I provided, is a fantastic deal for the chassis and drives. I've purchased many items from B&H, so there should be no concern or worry there.
> 
> 
> I'm an IT guy, so the notion that RAID is not a backup has been drilled into me for years. As such, I tend to always pass that bit of info along. Having RAID storage often provides a false sense of security. Yes, if one drive fails you can easily swap it out and continue humming along. But, what happens if more than 1 drive should fail or the drive chassis itself has an issue causing data loss? It may seem like that would be a rare occurrence, but it can and does happen when you least expect it. Ask me how I know.
> 
> 
> In your situation, you may be fine with having your server and storage as a copy of your physical discs. In this sense, your physical DVD and Bluray media is your backup. Essentially, what I'm suggesting is that you always have a way of restoring what is on your server/storage.


Thanks. I work in IT as well but not in hardware at all. Mainly testing applications. I did know that if I lost 2 drives I would be toast. But right now I am just using individual drives and doing manual copies so I figured RAID would just be a cleaner way of doing it. This stuff is beyond me which is why I do appreciate your help







. Besides doing what I am doing know, which is just individual drives, or a RAID, is there another option I am missing that is better? My current method does work because I did have a drive that went bad so now I am just copying everything from my backup to the new main drive. It's taken about 2-3 weeks but I am dealing with it. Just so I have choices, is there something besides that Drobo that you know of that would work for me? I mean, that one from the Pit Stop website is the only other one I know about. Do companies like Seagate or WD have RAID systems like I am looking for. Others that I found were LaCie and G-Technology. I mean, I need something for primary playback as well as backup. Someone told me the Drobo was great for backup but a somewhat slow for playback.


I also did a quick search on Drobo and there were people that had some big complaints about them, So I guess I have more research to do. A lot of what I am finding are NAS systems that say that they can be setup in a RAID style but I can't use that can I. Man I just wish there was an easy, stable(I know that's asking a lot) plug and play system. Someone else said that it's really not that hard to just get your own case and own drives and do it yourself, but I am not sure about that. I guess I have more decisions to make.

Thanks


----------



## MIkeDuke

P.S

Please help me understand why the 469 won't won't work. I know it says NAS but it also says it has a *USB 3.0 connection.*
*QNAP 4-Bay NAS, SATA 3Gbps, USB 3.0*(but that USB might only be able to connected to other storage devices?) But...


Also, these are from two emails from them

"Hi Michael,

All the QNAP NAS with 4 bays or more support RAID 5.

-TS-420, TS-421, TS-469L, TS-469 PRO, TS-470, and TS-470 PRO"

and

"Hi Michael,

Thanks for contacting us. The 469 isn't hard to setup, but some knowledge of networking principles will certainly help you get through the wizard. You can use this as RAID 5. Your windows server won't have an issue, you can configure this for NTFS. How much storage are you looking for?"


So that means that I still can't use that?

Thanks again.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Again, I hate doing something like 3 posts in a row but oh well. These are the ones that seem to meet my needs.
http://www.pc-pitstop.com/das/ds-sat05ue.asp 
http://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?id=10601 
http://www.g-technology.com/products/g-speed-q 
http://store.buffalotech.com/store/bufftech/en_US/pd/productID.279008900/quantity.1 


I never knew it would be this hard to find. Either the stuff I find may not be that reliable, or it's a NAS and not a RAID or some other issues. I mean, all I want is a RAID system that can be connected to my server via USB cable.

Plus I don't know the quality of all of those. Man this is more work then I planned on. I need to know it will work as I want it to before I make the leap.


----------



## dharel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/900#post_24660939
> 
> 
> P.S
> 
> Please help me understand why the 469 won't won't work. I know it says NAS but it also says it has a *USB 3.0 connection.*
> *QNAP 4-Bay NAS, SATA 3Gbps, USB 3.0*(but that USB might only be able to connected to other storage devices? But...
> 
> 
> Also, these are from two emails from them
> 
> "Hi Michael,
> 
> All the QNAP NAS with 4 bays or more support RAID 5.
> 
> -TS-420, TS-421, TS-469L, TS-469 PRO, TS-470, and TS-470 PRO"
> 
> and
> 
> "Hi Michael,
> 
> Thanks for contacting us. The 469 isn't hard to setup, but some knowledge of networking principles will certainly help you get through the wizard. You can use this as RAID 5. Your windows server won't have an issue, you can configure this for NTFS. How much storage are you looking for?"
> 
> 
> So that means that I still can't use that?
> 
> Thanks again.



The USB 3.0 connection on the back of the 469 chassis is to connect other external drives to it. It doesn't connect directly to a PC or server.


Let's take a step back for a moment and rethink the end result.


We know that you are looking to expand capacity and would like something with RAID capability, to give you more flexibility than simply plugging in external drives.


We know that there are several different types of drive chassis that meet you requirements. The 2 most common are NAS (Network Attached Storage) and DAS (Direct Attached Storage). An example of a DAS chassis is the Drobo I referenced in an earlier post. A NAS device would be something like the QNAP chassis you have been looking at.


Now, the question to be asked is "which is easier to setup and work with?" Both types can work with your server setup. A NAS will allow you to load up your drives and access its storage over your home network. You would need an open network port, somewhere on your home network to connect the NAS to. You would then follow the NAS's directions for setup and configuration. Once done, you would then tell your server to access the folders you setup on the NAS. Going this route, you need to have a basic understanding of networks and accessing folders/files over a network. This isn't complicated, but if you haven't done it before, it can get a bit frustrating.


Moving on, we have the DAS type of device. Obviously, these connect directly to your server. The most common connection nowadays is USB 3.0. With a DAS chassis, you simply install the drives and plug in both ends of the USB cable. One to the server, the other to the DAS. Some DAS devices have the drives pre-installed. Buffalo makes several like that. You may then need to configure the storage on the DAS. How to do so, depends on the device and instructions should be provided with it or online. The benefit here is that you don't have to worry about setting up anything on your network. It should really be plug&play.


All that being said, NAS and DAS will both provide you with RAID and expanded capacity. Don't worry about the physical drive installation with either. That's relatively easy. Your choice as to which to use, comes down to your comfort level on the different setups.


My take is that you should continue to look for a DAS chassis that meets your storage needs. The Drobo units are nice, as they offer higher capacity with more drives. You can also look at devices from Buffalo Tech , which can give you up to 16TB of storage. LaCie also makes some nice DAS storage devices.


Once again, I apologize if this seems overwhelming. I'm doing my best to scale back the techno-speak. Keep the questions coming and I'll continue to do my best to point you in the right direction.


----------



## dharel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/900#post_24661850
> 
> 
> Again, I hate doing something like 3 posts in a row but oh well. These are the ones that seem to meet my needs.
> http://www.pc-pitstop.com/das/ds-sat05ue.asp
> http://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?id=10601
> http://www.g-technology.com/products/g-speed-q
> http://store.buffalotech.com/store/bufftech/en_US/pd/productID.279008900/quantity.1
> 
> 
> I never knew it would be this hard to find. Either the stuff I find may not be that reliable, or it's a NAS and not a RAID or some other issues. I mean, all I want is a RAID system that can be connected to my server via USB cable.
> 
> Plus I don't know the quality of all of those. Man this is more work then I planned on. I need to know it will work as I want it to before I make the leap.



Any of these would work perfectly.


Edit - The last Buffalo Tech unit is a NAS. Check out the Buffalo Tech DAS I linked to in my post above.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks for baby stepping me







. So far I have followed you pretty good(to my own surprise). I have never heard of a DAS though. That is a new acronym for me. I appreciate you trying to scale back the techno speak. A fault of mine is that I really really really hate being frustrated about something. If something doesn't work or I can't figure it out, it really annoys me. But you are right when you say I am looking for something to connect to my server directly. I guess that means a DAS. And you don't have to apologize at all. It has been a good, yet difficult learning experience.


That's great that any of those would work fine. I just wonder which one is the most reliable. Again, I really can't thank you enough for all your help. Keep it coming of you want. I will find a way to make it through







.

And at least for the Lacie and PC pit stop I know which drives I can use. For the other two, they really don't specify what replacement drives I need to get.
*"Edit - The last Buffalo Tech unit is a NAS. Check out the Buffalo Tech DAS I linked to in my post above."*

Got it. Thanks


----------



## dharel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/900#post_24662051
> 
> 
> And at least for the Lacie and PC pit stop I know which drives I can use. For the other two, they really don't specify what replacement drives I need to get.



As I said earlier, it's my pleasure to help. I've been doing this stuff for years, and enjoy helping others. I'd hate to see anyone make an investment in a product that doesn't work out in the long run.


The LaCie and PC Pit Stop units allow you to use whatever compatible drives you choose. You'd have to check the specifications for the largest drive/drive combination those units will support. The nice thing here (as you've already noticed) is that if a drive fails and you can't find the exact replacement, any similar drive of the same size or larger can be used.


For the Buffalo and G-Tech units, you have to go back to them for drive replacements. You can't simply use any drive you'd like. It also looks like those 2 units come with the drives already pre-installed. That should make installation a bit easier.


I've used Buffalo Tech and LaCie products before. In fact, I have an older Bauffalo Tech NAS drive that's about 10 year sold still running at home. I don't know enough about the other 2, to offer any advice on them.


For your setup, I definitely reccomend the Buffalo Tech unit. Depending on your budget, you can get up to 16TB of storage.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK, I looked on the site. LaCie makes it easy to find the replacement drives but I can't find where the replacement drives are for the Buffalo. Can you post a link to the replacement drives?

EDIT on the BH site they also sell Buffalo replacement drives.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/886485-REG/Buffalo_hd_ql16tu3r5_16TB_DRIVSTATN_QUAD_4_BAY.html 

And on that site they also tell you what drives you can replace them with. So I good either way


So this would be the Lacie one
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/905764-REG/LaCie_9000330u_16TB_4Big_Quadra_USB3_0.html 


Almost the same price so it comes down to reliability and getting the drives. Now at least I have a direction and I can be more focused.

So now it's which one. HMMM. Thanks again for guiding me through the maze







. I try and help people when I can and I do appreciate you sharing what you know.


----------



## dharel

From Buffalo Tech:


Can I replace the hard drives in my DriveStation Quad by myself?

During the warranty period, please contact Buffalo Americas and we will replace any defective drives for you. The drives are easily replaced by sliding them into their bays behind the removable front panel; no tools are required. If maintaining your warranty is no longer a concern, most 7200 rpm SATA drives from reputable manufacturers will work fine in the DriveStation Quad; a screwdriver will be required to remove the hard drive tray and place it on the new drive. Because of thermal and power issues, the use of drives with speeds higher than 7200 rpm is not recommended.


So it seems you have 2 options for drive replacement with these. I didn't know that, and it seems to be a change from what they've done in the past. This definitely give you the most flexibility.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks for that. During the warranty period, they will do it? I couldn't find out how long the warranty was for that particular model though. I will say that I am a little confused though. In the section where they say they do it, it is indicated that no tools are required. In the section where they say if they don't do it, they say a screwdriver is required







. I am missing something for sure. I guess the front panel comes of with no tools but the drives require a screwdriver. I would think about sending something as delicate as that through the mail too many times though. I have visions of UPS playing "catch the box" with my package. I am guessing though if I wanted to, even if it is the warrnty stage, I could still do it myself?

I think this is what they(B&H) recommend as a HD replacement
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/835056-REG/Hitachi_0S03355_4TB_SATA3_3_5_INTERNL.html


----------



## Selden Ball

Mike,


The disk drives don't plug directly into the chassis. They have to be in special "carriers" which slide into the chassis. The carrier also provides support for the disk and proper air-flow around it.


If you get replacement drives from them, the new drive comes in a new carrier which just slides in. You send them the broken drive still in its old carrier. That is one of the reasons their disks cost more than bare drives. (They've also pre-tested the disks.)


If you get a disk drive yourself, you have to take the broken disk drive out of its carrier and put the new disk into that old carrier. A screwdriver is needed to remove the broken disk and install the new disk into that carrier.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. I got you Selden.

So are you saying that if I got this from Buffalo
http://www.buffalotech.com/products/desktop-hard-drives/drivestation/drivestation-quad-1 

and then got a replacement drive directly from them(which I can't find on their site BTW)

that it would come with it's own carrier? And then all I do is slide the bad one out and slide the good one in? I assume that

there is some kind of connection wire that has to be disconnected and then re-connected as well.

OR

This one which seems to a Raid as well
http://store.buffalotech.com/store/bufftech/en_US/pd/productID.279008900/quantity.1 

It would work the same way? I just can't see, to find the replacement drives on their site


With Lacie it would work the same way?

I would get this from them
http://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?id=10601 

and the get this directly from them
http://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?id=10314 

That it would come with it's own carrier and all I do is slide the bad one out and the good one in. Again, are there any wires that would need to

be connected?

Thanks again guys for your help. It has been indispensable.


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/900#post_24669366
> 
> 
> OK. I got you Selden.
> 
> So are you saying that if I got this from Buffalo
> http://www.buffalotech.com/products/desktop-hard-drives/drivestation/drivestation-quad-1
> 
> and then got a replacement drive directly from them(which I can't find on their site BTW)
> 
> that it would come with it's own carrier? And then all I do is slide the bad one out and slide the good one in? I assume that
> 
> there is some kind of connection wire that has to be disconnected and then re-connected as well.
> 
> OR
> 
> This one which seems to a Raid as well
> http://store.buffalotech.com/store/bufftech/en_US/pd/productID.279008900/quantity.1
> 
> It would work the same way? I just can't see, to find the replacement drives on their site
> 
> 
> With Lacie it would work the same way?
> 
> I would get this from them
> http://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?id=10601
> 
> and the get this directly from them
> http://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?id=10314
> 
> That it would come with it's own carrier and all I do is slide the bad one out and the good one in. Again, are there any wires that would need to
> 
> be connected?
> 
> Thanks again guys for your help. It has been indispensable.


Mike, there are no 'wires' to connect. Each SATA drive has a SATA connector on the end. When the drive is mounted in the carrier/tray and slid into the box, you will feel the connector engage. A little push to overcome the resistance and you will feel the connector engage over a small distance of about 0.3" to 0.5".


BTW, here's an alternative
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003YFHEAC/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1398945944&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40 


I've been using the non-RAID version of the company's 4-drive Probox for the attached storage with my ISO capable Oppo BDP. The oldest drive is about 3 years old. I only use Seagate Momentum bare 2TB drives ($89-$115 depending on Amazon sales). The Oppo can't see drives larger than 2TB or I would've used 4TB drives. The Probox and drives have all been problem-free.


BTW, since the Oppo can see up to 8 individual drives, I also use a Stargate 4-bay docking station as it's much easier to swap drives out (discharge any static electricity from myself, pull out one drive, plug in a different one. All while the power is off of course). That's because I have more than 8 x 2TB drives filled. I keep the 4 drives with movies I rewatch often (or demo often like WOTW LOL) in the Probox and swap drives in the Stargate.


As for mounting the drives in the carrier/tray. The tray is simply a plastic frame that attaches to the bare drive with 4 screws (Philips head).



Max


P.S. Here's an option that is trayless. Just push the new bare drive in
http://www.amazon.com/USB3-0-eSATA-tray-less-hardware-enclosure/dp/B002QYECOI/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1398947675&sr=8-5&keywords=probox+raid


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK.

Let's put all the choices on the table in one post and what is needed for each.

1. Buffalo

That would be this
http://www.buffalotech.com/products/desktop-hard-drives/drivestation/drivestation-quad-1 

or this
http://store.buffalotech.com/store/bufftech/en_US/pd/productID.279008900/quantity.1 

With those it's all inclusive but if a drive fails I need to send it back and they send me a new one.

Or get this



2.datatopic
http://www.datoptic.com/ec/thunderbolt-esata-usb3-0-hardware-raid-jbod-driverless.html 

It looks like a newer version on the video that was posted

(is there one that I am missing)

with 5 of these
http://www.amazon.com/WD-Red-NAS-Hard-Drive/dp/B008JJLW4M/ref=cm_cr_dp_asin_lnk 

Plus is probably priced lower. From the video. it seems pretty simple do do the drives

or



3. The Lacie
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/905764-REG/LaCie_9000330u_16TB_4Big_Quadra_USB3_0.html 

Plus is that it is all setup and and I can get HD's without sending it back but I don't know how hard it is to replace them.

That's it right guys? I just want you both to know that I am learning a lot from both of you. I just want to try and get the one that's best for me.


----------



## djbluemax1

Yep, your last two posts pretty much sums it up. Either of those DatOptic units will work, although you don't really need the Thunderbolt capable version for an NAS media server. The much faster speed capabilities will go unused. Of course, it does provide all the possible connection types you could want now or possibly in the near future, if you decide you'd like to use the RAID enclosure for some usage where the added speed may be of use.


As the instructions state, once you slide in the bare drives and set the DatOptic unit for RAID5, it will configure and format the RAID array.


BTW, you're correct, the video DOES show the Thunderbolt capable version. It's identical in setup to the cheaper $499 on Amazon version with the only difference being the available connections. The $499 version only has an eSATA connector on the back, but includes an eSata to USB3.0 adapter. The DatOptic site also has versions that have built-in USB3.0 connectors (as well as versions with FireWire and Thunderbolt and all of them).



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Max. I guess I was just leary of the whole adapter thing. For some reason I felt that a direct connection to the box is better. Even if it has a connection I never would use. Now if they had one that was USB without the Thunderbolt connection, I would look at that as well.

So this one would work as well?
http://www.datoptic.com/ec/esata-usb3-0-hardware-raid-support-mac-windows-freebsd-linux.html 


The only thing is, it looks different then the other one with screen and buttons so I don't know how you would set that one up. That's why this one is the one I picked
http://www.datoptic.com/ec/thunderbolt-esata-usb3-0-hardware-raid-jbod-driverless.html 

Because it seemed to have the same setup procedure as that video you posted. Even though it has a feature I won't use.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I still haven't ruled anything out yet though. I have time to think about it and see what works the best for me. But it's nice to have options







.


----------



## MIkeDuke

dharel.

Am I reading this right? This is from the Buffalo site. I think it's about the data recovery.

"Your storage device is shipped to our secure laboratory for examination.

Specialized engineers perform a free laboratory evaluation of the failure and then inform you of the probability for recovery and provide *cost estimates*."

So I have to pay them for that service? I did not know that. I understand that it's important to get quality gear, but I think that's a bit much.

Are there any other companies out there that are not 3rd party companies but allow you to change drives without sending the unit back. Does Synology make "empty" RAID, not NAS cases and then allow you add your own drives?

Thanks again for ALL the help with this.


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/930#post_24673579
> 
> 
> Thanks Max. I guess I was just leary of the whole adapter thing. For some reason I felt that a direct connection to the box is better. Even if it has a connection I never would use. Now if they had one that was USB without the Thunderbolt connection, I would look at that as well.
> 
> So this one would work as well?
> http://www.datoptic.com/ec/esata-usb3-0-hardware-raid-support-mac-windows-freebsd-linux.html
> 
> 
> The only thing is, it looks different then the other one with screen and buttons so I don't know how you would set that one up. That's why this one is the one I picked
> http://www.datoptic.com/ec/thunderbolt-esata-usb3-0-hardware-raid-jbod-driverless.html
> 
> Because it seemed to have the same setup procedure as that video you posted. Even though it has a feature I won't use.


If you wanted one like the one in the video but with a built-in USB 3.0 connector, I believe this is the one you'd want
http://www.datoptic.com/ec/esata-usb3-0-raid-jbod-five-sata-tray-less-hardware-driver-less.html# 


The $399 would work too, and in fact, the setup procedure is potentially even simpler than the one with the LCD display. The LCD display model simply has the ability to check the status of the RAID on that front panel.

Check out the 'Hardware EZ setup in 30-seconds' instructions (the 4th image down under 'Product Description')
http://www.datoptic.com/ec/esata-usb3-0-hardware-raid-support-mac-windows-freebsd-linux.html 



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks max. I think I like the type that is shown in the video. But we shall see. At least I have some to choose from now.


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/930#post_24678025
> 
> 
> Thanks max. I think I like the type that is shown in the video. But we shall see. At least I have some to choose from now.


Yep, and think of how many more movies you could buy with the price difference lol.



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

Max,

I know you are suggesting them so you must like them. But it's not from a "main stream" company like Buffalo or Synology or Qnap or something like that is it? Would you say that the datatopic is still a quality piece. Is there another more main stream company that could be worth looking into?

Thanks again


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/930#post_24682819
> 
> 
> Max,
> 
> I know you are suggesting them so you must like them. But it's not from a "main stream" company like Buffalo or Synology or Qnap or something like that is it? Would you say that the datatopic is still a quality piece. Is there another more main stream company that could be worth looking into?
> 
> Thanks again


DatOptic isn't as well known as Buffalo etc. but they do produce quality equipment, both for the home and for Enterprise-class business servers (where equipment downtime costs money).


A hardware RAID enclosure (different from software RAID) for all intents and purposes, is a box with a RAID controller (I know DatOptic uses Areca RAID controllers in some of their boxes, but I'll not sure if they use it in all of them. Areca's RAID controllers are found in a good share of Enterprise class setups).


Aside from the RAID controller, the rest of the box is the wiring and sockets (DatOptic's SATA sockets are great), power supply (the eBOX has an overbuilt 400w PS), the cooling (the eBOX has fans blowing directly on each individual drive in the array, plus dual exhaust fans. Most RAID enclosures usually just have an intake and exhaust fan), and with the model with the LCD display, the added chip that connects that and the button commands. The last thing that matters is customer support. Call DatOptic's CS if you have any questions. They're usually always helpful and knowledgeable.


I personally don't have a problem with lesser known companies, if the quality/performance is there (I'm still rockin my 4-year old Sager NP9280 laptop built with an Intel 980X Extreme 6-core CPU, and it's been problem-free and WAY better than the Dell XPS laptop it replaced, which developed problems within a couple of years). When I replace the NP9280, it'll probably be with another Sager because I love the performance and reliability.


If you're more comfortable with a mainstream company like Buffalo though, they DO make great products too. You just tend to pay more for the same or less. Between the mainstream companies, I'd go with Buffalo or Drobo. Synology's track record has been a little spotty.



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

Well, I looked at Buffalo a little more closely and I don't know if I really like what I see. First, if a drive goes bad, it seems like I have to send the bad drive back to them and then they send me a new one to replace it. Look at post 945. I honestly don't know if I like that. There was a second item but I am drawing a blank now what it is. The Drobo looks nice and seems simple enough as well. It seems to have same replacement method as the DataOptic. As far as initial setup I don't know because I haven't seen a video that focuses on that like I did with the other one. Plus, two of the Drobo's don't say what Seagate drives are needed. The Drobo 4 just says (4x4tb drives) and the 5D just says (5x4tb Segate SATA Hard drives) but not which specific kind or name The 5N says that it can use Western Digital Red SATA drives. Or the Seagate drives like the other ones. We shall see. I am not in a rush as of yet so I can still do some research on the Drobo and see what I find.

Thanks


----------



## dharel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/930#post_24675344
> 
> 
> dharel.
> 
> Am I reading this right? This is from the Buffalo site. I think it's about the data recovery.
> 
> "Your storage device is shipped to our secure laboratory for examination.
> 
> Specialized engineers perform a free laboratory evaluation of the failure and then inform you of the probability for recovery and provide *cost estimates*."
> 
> So I have to pay them for that service? I did not know that. I understand that it's important to get quality gear, but I think that's a bit much.
> 
> Are there any other companies out there that are not 3rd party companies but allow you to change drives without sending the unit back. Does Synology make "empty" RAID, not NAS cases and then allow you add your own drives?
> 
> Thanks again for ALL the help with this.



This is only if you want the data recovered from the faulty drive. Since you'd be using RAID 5, this service would be unnecessary. In the rare event of a multiple drive failure, you could then explore this route. Of course, this is why I mentioned earlier to be sure you have some type of backup of what's on your storage drives.


If the unit is still under warranty, there should be no cost to have Buffalo replace the drive. This is from Bauffalo:


During the warranty period, please contact Buffalo Americas and we will replace any defective drives for you. The drives are easily replaced by sliding them into their bays behind the removable front panel; no tools are required. If maintaining your warranty is no longer a concern, most 7200 rpm SATA drives from reputable manufacturers will work fine in the DriveStation Quad; a screwdriver will be required to remove the hard drive tray and place it on the new drive.


To clarify, this means that you have 2 options for drive replacement. During the warranty period, Buffalo will replace the drive as detailed above. You send them your defective drive and they will send another. After the warranty period, you can pay Buffalo for a new drive with tray or purchase and use your own drive. You'd have to remove a few screws and remove the drive tray from the defective drive and then place it on the new drive.


With the Drobos, you don't have to only use Seagate drives.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dharel*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/930#post_24684070
> 
> 
> This is only if you want the data recovered from the faulty drive. Since you'd be using RAID 5, this service would be unnecessary. In the rare event of a multiple drive failure, you could then explore this route. Of course, this is why I mentioned earlier to be sure you have some type of backup of what's on your storage drives.
> 
> 
> If the unit is still under warranty, there should be no cost to have Buffalo replace the drive.
> 
> 
> With the Drobos, you don't have to only use Seagate drives.


I am L.D so please bare with me







. You are saying that if I wanted to, I could replace the drives myself just like the others let me?

Using these as examples
http://www.buffalotech.com/products/desktop-hard-drives/drivestation/drivestation-quad-1 

or
http://store.buffalotech.com/store/bufftech/en_US/pd/productID.279008900/quantity.1 

But the thing is, again, I would still need to contact them directly and get the drive from them as opposed to the other machines where I could just buy

the drive on my own right?


----------



## dharel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/930#post_24684107
> 
> 
> I am L.D so please bare with me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . You are saying that if I wanted to, I could replace the drives myself just like the others let me?
> 
> Using these as examples
> http://www.buffalotech.com/products/desktop-hard-drives/drivestation/drivestation-quad-1
> 
> or
> http://store.buffalotech.com/store/bufftech/en_US/pd/productID.279008900/quantity.1
> 
> But the thing is, again, I would still need to contact them directly and get the drive from them as opposed to the other machines where I could just buy
> 
> the drive on my own right?



Under the warranty period, you simply contact Buffalo and tell them you have a defective drive. Send the bad drive in and they will send a new one. You can also do this after the warranty period. You would just have to pay for the new drive.


During the warranty period and after, you can buy your own drive (from anywhere) to replace the defective drive. The difference is that if you do so while under the warranty period, you void your warranty.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. I got you. So during the warranty period it makes sense to send them the drive and they just send me a replacement. And after the warranty is over, I can still contact them, send them the drive, and pay for the new drive and install it myself. If I go this way, that probably makes the most sense since all the drives would be the same.

All these choices







. Thanks for the help.

P.S

Either way I will end up installing the new drive myself correct? Is it as easy as it is on the other machine? Do I need to set anything up again once I replace the drive or will it build it automatically. I assume when I first get it is when I say I want it setup as RAID 5 in some way?


----------



## dharel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/930#post_24684146
> 
> 
> Either way I will end up installing the new drive myself correct? Is it as easy as it is on the other machine? Do I need to set anything up again once I replace the drive or will it build it automatically. I assume when I first get it is when I say I want it setup as RAID 5 in some way?



Just open the front cover, slide the old drive out and slide the new one in. The RAID array should rebuild automatically.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dharel*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/930#post_24684172
> 
> 
> Just open the front cover, slide the old drive out and slide the new one in. The RAID array should rebuild automatically.


Nice. So it's no more difficult then the other ones. We shall see.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Dahrel

OK. I am still trying to figure out which is the best and which one is the most reliable. According to this video he changed the drives himself in a Buffalo machine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3-QQxNtZIg 

He did not mention anything about having to get drives directly from them. He just showed how you remove a drive and replace it. He just said that they are Seagate Barracuda 3TB drives 7200 RPM. To replace it he said to just slide it back into place until it slips into position. He did not mention anything about having to get the drive directly from them. I mean, it looks like according to this, I can get my own drives and do this myself. Then he goes over the software part which doesn't look too bad.

I would assume that it's the same for something like this
http://www.buffalotech.com/products/desktop-hard-drives/drivestation/drivestation-quad-1 

Only this has 4 drives instead of two.

Am I wrong in my assumption about replacing and getting the drives myself?

Just trying to get all the facts before I make a choice.


----------



## MIkeDuke

First I want to thanks both of you guys for all your help. Even though I am torn between which one to get.

So now if what I saw above its accurate, I can chose from the Buffalo or DatOptic. What to do. They both look good . The Buffalo is more affordable though. But that one Datoptic looks easy to setup and I know for a fact that I can I do my own HD with that one. It looks like I have some choices still to make.

Either
http://store.buffalotech.com/store/bufftech/en_US/pd/productID.279002600/quantity.1 

or
http://www.datoptic.com/ec/esata-usb3-0-raid-jbod-five-sata-tray-less-hardware-driver-less.html# 

or
http://www.datoptic.com/ec/esata-usb3-0-hardware-raid-support-mac-windows-freebsd-linux.html


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/930#post_24695899
> 
> 
> First I want to thanks both of you guys for all your help. Even though I am torn between which one to get.
> 
> So now if what I saw above its accurate, I can chose from the Buffalo or DatOptic. What to do. They both look good . The Buffalo is more affordable though. But that one Datoptic looks easy to setup and I know for a fact that I can I do my own HD with that one. It looks like I have some choices still to make.
> 
> Either
> http://store.buffalotech.com/store/bufftech/en_US/pd/productID.279002600/quantity.1
> 
> or
> http://www.datoptic.com/ec/esata-usb3-0-raid-jbod-five-sata-tray-less-hardware-driver-less.html#
> 
> or
> http://www.datoptic.com/ec/esata-usb3-0-hardware-raid-support-mac-windows-freebsd-linux.html


Not sure how the Buffalo is more affordable?


If you get the DatOptic unit you linked to:

$549

+

5 x $182 for (5 x 4TB WD Red drives)

=

$1459 for 20TB = $72.95 per TB


vs the Buffalo option at $1499 for 16TB = $93.69 per TB


But hey, it's always good to have options as you can choose between what you need/want and what features are most important to you.


BTW, if you were also still considering the DatOptic unit with the LCD display, this setup video is a more comprehensive demo of the on PC setup, as well as what happens if a drive eventually fails and how it handles a failed drive replacement:







Max


P.S. BTW, you CAN use regular drives like the 7200rpm Seagate drives mentioned, but with a RAID array, it's better to use TLER enabled drives like the WD Red drives. The TLER feature prevents the array from timing out and crashing the entire array if one drive fails and the system encounters a bad sector in a different drive when trying to rebuild the RAID after replacing the failed drive.


----------



## MIkeDuke

*All options are on the table.*

If you get everything from the datoptic, the box + SKU: HD-4T-HU 4TB, 7200rpm SATA III (6.0Gb/sec) Enterprise RAID Hard drive +$395.95 the price ends up being

$2528 from that site. But I guess I can the drives somewhere else. I did not think about that









But what you are saying is just get the eBox from them and then get the drives from here?
http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-Cache-Drive-WD40EFRX/dp/B00EHBERSE/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1399595767&sr=1-5&keywords=4+tb+hard+drive 

That would be more affordable. Are the drives that I linked to that TLER type?

When I get a chance, I will check out that other video.

Thanks again.


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24698569
> 
> *All options are on the table.*
> 
> If you get everything from the datoptic, the box + SKU: HD-4T-HU 4TB, 7200rpm SATA III (6.0Gb/sec) Enterprise RAID Hard drive +$395.95 the price ends up being
> 
> $2528 from that site. But I guess I can the drives somewhere else. I did not think about that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But what you are saying is just get the eBox from them and then get the drives from here?
> http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-Cache-Drive-WD40EFRX/dp/B00EHBERSE/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1399595767&sr=1-5&keywords=4+tb+hard+drive
> 
> That would be more affordable. Are the drives that I linked to that TLER type?
> 
> When I get a chance, I will check out that other video.
> 
> Thanks again.


Yup, those WD Red drives are TLER enabled. That would be my recommendation.



Max


----------



## dharel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/930#post_24695858
> 
> 
> Dahrel
> 
> OK. I am still trying to figure out which is the best and which one is the most reliable. According to this video he changed the drives himself in a Buffalo machine
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3-QQxNtZIg
> 
> He did not mention anything about having to get drives directly from them. He just showed how you remove a drive and replace it. He just said that they are Seagate Barracuda 3TB drives 7200 RPM. To replace it he said to just slide it back into place until it slips into position. He did not mention anything about having to get the drive directly from them. I mean, it looks like according to this, I can get my own drives and do this myself. Then he goes over the software part which doesn't look too bad.
> 
> I would assume that it's the same for something like this
> http://www.buffalotech.com/products/desktop-hard-drives/drivestation/drivestation-quad-1
> 
> Only this has 4 drives instead of two.
> 
> Am I wrong in my assumption about replacing and getting the drives myself?
> 
> Just trying to get all the facts before I make a choice.



It comes down to how you want to handle replacing drives and your warranty. You basically have these options:


1. Under warranty - Contact Buffalo. They send new drive and you send back defective drive. Warranty remains in tact.

2. Under warranty - Purchase your own drive. Swap drive carrier from old drive to new drive and install new drive. Warranty voided since you used your own drive.

3. After warranty period - Contact Buffalo. They send new drive and you send back defective drive. You pay Buffalo for the new drive.

4. After warranty period - Purchase your own drive. Swap drive carrier from old drive to new drive and install new drive. Purchase drive from anywhere.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dharel*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24701445
> 
> 
> It comes down to how you want to handle replacing drives and your warranty. You basically have these options:
> 
> 
> 1. Under warranty - Contact Buffalo. They send new drive and you send back defective drive. Warranty remains in tact.
> 
> 2. Under warranty - Purchase your own drive. Swap drive carrier from old drive to new drive and install new drive. Warranty voided since you used your own drive.
> 
> 3. After warranty period - Contact Buffalo. They send new drive and you send back defective drive. You pay Buffalo for the new drive.
> 
> 4. After warranty period - Purchase your own drive. Swap drive carrier from old drive to new drive and install new drive. Purchase drive from anywhere.


OK. That is all good. They don't specify what name brand drives come with the unit though. Do you know. In that video the guy said that they were Seagate I think. I am guessing I would need to use the same kind. So I am still weighing all options.
*So just to be clear, under all situations, I would replace the drive on my own. Is that correct?*


----------



## MIkeDuke

Max,

so for the eSata it would be this
http://www.datoptic.com/ec/esata-usb3-0-raid-jbod-five-sata-tray-less-hardware-driver-less.html# 

and these
http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-Cache-Drive-WD40EFRX/dp/B00EHBERSE/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1399595767&sr=1-5&keywords=4+tb+hard+drive 

Is that correct?


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24709425
> 
> 
> Max,
> 
> so for the eSata it would be this
> http://www.datoptic.com/ec/esata-usb3-0-raid-jbod-five-sata-tray-less-hardware-driver-less.html#
> 
> and these
> http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-Cache-Drive-WD40EFRX/dp/B00EHBERSE/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1399595767&sr=1-5&keywords=4+tb+hard+drive
> 
> Is that correct?


Yep that would be my recommendation. Built-in USB 3.0 port in the RAID enclosure + 5 of those drives.


You can follow the more detailed video in post #960 for how to set everything up with that particular enclosure and connect it to your computer and start loading movies onto it.



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

Now here is another question. Let's say a drive does go bad. I take out the bad drive and put in the new one. in the eBox, is there anything I have to do to have the RAID rebuild itself? Like a menu option or something? Or does it do it on its own. That goes for the other one as well.

Edit: It looks like that video goes over that part as well.

But then he goes on to explain other stuff you have to do inside windows. He talks about using the "disk manager" which is in the system tools menu. Those next steps just look a little confusing to me. Maybe when I have it front of me it will be simpler. Is that stuff that is loaded from a cd that comes with the box itself? Do all RAID systems have those kind of steps?

Thanks


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24712932
> 
> 
> Now here is another question. Let's say a drive does go bad. I take out the bad drive and put in the new one. in the eBox, is there anything I have to do to have the RAID rebuild itself? Like a menu option or something? Or does it do it on its own. That goes for the other one as well.
> 
> Edit: It looks like that video goes over that part as well.
> 
> But then he goes on to explain other stuff you have to do inside windows. He talks about using the "disk manager" which is in the system tools menu. Those next steps just look a little confusing to me. Maybe when I have it front of me it will be simpler. Is that stuff that is loaded from a cd that comes with the box itself? Do all RAID systems have those kind of steps?
> 
> Thanks


Yes, if you replace a bad drive, the eBox will detect that a new drive has been installed when you close the drive 'door' and automatically rebuild the RAID.


Yes, with any RAID or even a new hard drive, you will have to select and format it in Windows. This is to ensure maximum compatibility as different setups and systems require different formats. In your case, you'll want to format it GPT (developed for drives bigger than 2TB).


Windows will automatically assign a drive letter that is not currently used (eg. C: is the system drive. If you have an optical disc drive, it'll be D: etc., if you have an external drive connected, it would be E:, then when you format the RAID, it will be assigned F: You can label it something like 'Mike's Movies'. If you don't label it, it will just show up as F: New Drive or whatever letter it gets assigned).



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Max. I guess I hoped it was more plug and play on the windows side like my current drives are. I guess I will be looking at that video a few more times to get it all figured out







. Again, the one thing that confuses me is he says I have to use the disk manager which is in the system tools menu. Is something that comes on the disk or is that a feature in the windows OS to begin with. Forgive me if that's a basic question, but I have never had to anything like that before.


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24719114
> 
> 
> Thanks Max. I guess I hoped it was more plug and play on the windows side like my current drives are. I guess I will be looking at that video a few more times to get it all figured out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Again, the one thing that confuses me is he says I have to use the disk manager which is in the system tools menu. Is something that comes on the disk or is that a feature in the windows OS to begin with. Forgive me if that's a basic question, but I have never had to anything like that before.


What version of Windows are you using?


Here's an example of where to find it on Windows 7
http://pcsupport.about.com/od/windows7/ht/disk-management-windows-7.htm 


If you're using a different version of Windows, you can just Google 'Disk Management Windows XXX'.


The simple directions make it easy to get to. If you're not too familiar with computers, a simple tip would be to follow those steps now to see how your configuration is set up (if for example, you have multiple hard drives in the computer). When you eventually connect whichever RAID you DO decide to go with, it'll be the new addition (it will also be unformatted). Then you can simply right click the drive, choose 'Format' and choose 'GPT', label the drive if you wish and when you click to confirm the Format instruction, it will format the RAID and voila, you can now begin loading stuff on the RAID.



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

That link is perfect because I am using Windows 7. So even right now I can follow those directions just to get to that point right? So if I do that before I have the RAID setup, it should make that "Disk Management" Icon appear correct? Then I can just follow the rest of the steps in the video? Man am I glad that the video was so complete. That is the first time I found out that I actually had to do something on the windows side to get the RAID to work. I would have been pulling my hair out without knowing that.


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24720719
> 
> 
> That link is perfect because I am using Windows 7. So even right now I can follow those directions just to get to that point right? So if I do that before I have the RAID setup, it should make that "Disk Management" Icon appear correct? Then I can just follow the rest of the steps in the video? Man am I glad that the video was so complete. That is the first time I found out that I actually had to do something on the windows side to get the RAID to work. I would have been pulling my hair out without knowing that.


Perfect. Yes, with Windows 7, you can follow the directions in that link I posted to get to the Disk Management utility to see what it looks like, and see how many hard drives are in your system etc.


WARNING: Obviously, DON'T actually format any of the drives currently in your computer as it will erase the data on it.


When you get the RAID, follow the directions in the video and you're all set.



Max


P.S. The 4TB WD Red drives are currently $176.99 on Amazon. Whenever I'm considering buying something from Amazon that isn't needed immediately, I check their prices vs other places and drop it into my Amazon cart. If Amazon's prices are as low or lower than the best prices I can find, then I'll buy it from Amazon.


If Amazon's prices aren't the lowest, I leave the item in the cart unpurchased (or Save for Later), and check my cart several times a day as Amazon's prices tend to fluctuate. If/when the price drops, I buy. This doesn't work with some items as the price never varies, but it works for common items like hard drives etc. I've gotten a pair of binoculars that way on Amazon for 33% less than the highest price fluctuation on the site.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Max. I think I will do that setup part over the weekend when I have to relax and take my time. And I won't make the mistake of formatting anything








.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Well, I was feeling bold and I followed the directions in that link. I found that screen that is shown in the video. So once I get the RAID, I just need to follow those instructions again I should see the RAID and then I can do what I need to do right? Because I don't see that disk manager thing in the base view when I ho to the computer option and see my other drives. But if I follow those instructions, I should see it come up in the Computer section with all my other drives right?

Thanks


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24723779
> 
> 
> Well, I was feeling bold and I followed the directions in that link. I found that screen that is shown in the video. So once I get the RAID, I just need to follow those instructions again I should see the RAID and then I can do what I need to do right? Because I don't see that disk manager thing in the base view when I ho to the computer option and see my other drives. But if I follow those instructions, I should see it come up in the Computer section with all my other drives right?
> 
> Thanks


I didn't quite follow that.


Which instructions did you follow? Did you get to the screen that shows you all the hard drives in your system (shows the drives with the dark blue lines)?


That link provides 2 routes to get to the Disk Management utility. Which route you use depends on how you have Windows 7 setup to look. I personally have mine setup to show icons when I click on 'Control Panel', so I go through 'Administrative Tools', then 'Computer Management', which pulls up the window that has 'Disk Management' on the list on the left side. Clicking 'Disk Management' will then open the window that shows all my connected hard drives.


When you connect the RAID, it will show up here and you can then right-click to select and format it.



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *djbluemax1*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24724507
> 
> 
> I didn't quite follow that.
> 
> 
> Which instructions did you follow? Did you get to the screen that shows you all the hard drives in your system (shows the drives with the dark blue lines)?
> 
> 
> That link provides 2 routes to get to the Disk Management utility. Which route you use depends on how you have Windows 7 setup to look. I personally have mine setup to show icons when I click on 'Control Panel', so I go through 'Administrative Tools', then 'Computer Management', which pulls up the window that has 'Disk Management' on the list on the left side. Clicking 'Disk Management' will then open the window that shows all my connected hard drives.
> 
> 
> When you connect the RAID, it will show up here and you can then right-click to select and format it.
> 
> 
> 
> Max


I think I was expecting to see it listed in the place where all the other drives were listed. I followed the instructions from that link you posted. In the video though, the guy sort of drops you into that second part without telling you how to get there. So I was expecting to see it without having to go to another area. But with those instructions you posted in post 970, I found it administrative tools and then computer management. That's how I get it. Then I was able to see all my drives when I clicked on Disk Manager under the storage icon. I did see all my drives when I did that. When I said "base" view, I thought I would see "Disk Manager" when I went to the start menu and then the computer section. That's what I meant by the base view. I never even went into that other section before. I just thought it would be in a spot that I was used to that's all. But as I said, I did find it and I did see all my drives.


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24724862
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *djbluemax1*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24724507
> 
> 
> I didn't quite follow that.
> 
> 
> Which instructions did you follow? Did you get to the screen that shows you all the hard drives in your system (shows the drives with the dark blue lines)?
> 
> 
> That link provides 2 routes to get to the Disk Management utility. Which route you use depends on how you have Windows 7 setup to look. I personally have mine setup to show icons when I click on 'Control Panel', so I go through 'Administrative Tools', then 'Computer Management', which pulls up the window that has 'Disk Management' on the list on the left side. Clicking 'Disk Management' will then open the window that shows all my connected hard drives.
> 
> 
> When you connect the RAID, it will show up here and you can then right-click to select and format it.
> 
> 
> 
> Max
> 
> 
> 
> I think I was expecting to see it listed in the place where all the other drives were listed. I followed the instructions from that link you posted. In the video though, the guy sort of drops you into that second part without telling you how to get there. So I was expecting to see it without having to go to another area. But with those instructions you posted in post 970, I found it administrative tools and then computer management. That's how I get it. Then I was able to see all my drives when I clicked on Disk Manager under the storage icon. I did see all my drives when I did that. When I said "base" view, I thought I would see "Disk Manager" when I went to the start menu and then the computer section. That's what I meant by the base view. I never even went into that other section before. I just thought it would be in a spot that I was used to that's all. But as I said, I did find it and I did see all my drives.
Click to expand...

Excellent. When you do set up your RAID, now you'll know where to go to format it and label it, so basically, you now know everything you need to know to get your RAID connected and up and running.


Yeah, the reason they put the Disk Management utility several layers deep is to reduce the likelihood that someone who isn't sure what they're doing might drop into it and mess things up unintentionally. Generally, the folks who aren't too computer savvy won't drill down that deep. Of course, there's no accounting for the curiosity of kids though (which is why it's always good to setup separate logins for children so they don't have Administrative capabilities. Reduces the chances of their curiosity making detrimental changes to the system).



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

Yep. I should be good to go. I mean, there really isn't anything for me to do right now. I don't think I should get to that utility until I get the RAID connected. At least I know how to get to it and then I can follow the instructions to set it up.

Edit:

just a few more things. I don't know if any of this matters. But my Windows 7 system is 64 bit. Now, I have heard and read that Windows has issues with drives above 2TB. Well, I am using 4TB drives with no issues at all. Is there any chance at all that once I connect the RAID, it will be ready to go? Without this other stuff? Don't get me wrong, I feel confident that I can do it now but I was just curious. And after I do those instructions, will I see the drive like I see my other drives in the Computer section? You know, start menu then computer.


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24726155
> 
> 
> Yep. I should be good to go. I mean, there really isn't anything for me to do right now. I don't think I should get to that utility until I get the RAID connected. At least I know how to get to it and then I can follow the instructions to set it up.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> just a few more things. I don't know if any of this matters. But my Windows 7 system is 64 bit. Now, I have heard and read that Windows has issues with drives above 2TB. Well, I am using 4TB drives with no issues at all. Is there any chance at all that once I connect the RAID, it will be ready to go? Without this other stuff? Don't get me wrong, I feel confident that I can do it now but I was just curious. And after I do those instructions, will I see the drive like I see my other drives in the Computer section? You know, start menu then computer.


64-bit operating systems can handle drives larger than 2TB. With the RAID though, you'll still have to format it for GPT, so you will have to go into the Disk Management utility.


Once it's formatted though, yes, it will appear in the Computer section like any other drive, and you can use it like a normal drive.



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *djbluemax1*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24726380
> 
> 
> 64-bit operating systems can handle drives larger than 2TB. With the RAID though, you'll still have to format it for GPT, so you will have to go into the Disk Management utility.
> 
> 
> Once it's formatted though, yes, it will appear in the Computer section like any other drive, and you can use it like a normal drive.
> 
> 
> 
> Max


Sweet. Now that I know where it is and how to use it, it should not be too bad. All I need now is the cash







.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Alright, so I think the RAID question is answered. I have another friend who might send me some ideas, but I think I am pretty well set. I thought I would get back to the system itself. One movie that I really like is Ronin. Not that piece of crap 47 Ronin, but Ronin with Robert D. Holy crap did that sound great. I have it on DVD and I know it front to back because I have watched it so many times. But the DTS-MA is SO much better then the Dolby Digital on the DVD. Audio cues were really well pronounced, I heard more ambient detail, and better dialog(clearer) with the BR. Plus the picture looks fantastic. For being an older movie, I was quite impressed with how well it looked and sounded. I know not to many different people look in this thread any more







. That's OK. It's good for me to keep a log of what's going on. But if you are in here, I highly recommend you get Ronin on BR. Just don't forget to add the forced subtitles.


And of course music still sounds really good. No matter what I play, I have a grin from ear to ear. Having all my stuff on the server is awesome. I can go from one cd to another or one artist to another in no time. Plus, as I said, it sounds really good to me. I just wish I could get a bigger screen. For reasons I will not go into







, I can't. Now, even though I think it sounds fantastic, I am not sure if something is a miss. Overall, my entire level seems somewhat low. I know it's not %100 accurate, but when I run the test tones through my speakers, and I have my SPL meter set to the lowest setting which is 60(I have the digital meter), I don't get any reading at all. It just says "low". Now I may try and put it up to 70 and see if that does anything. If it doesn't, and I still can't any reading at all, I will be at a loss. It still sounds great so I may not worry about it too much. It just seems odd that's all. I mean, it's not just one speaker that says it's "low", it's all of them. Maybe if someone who knows more then me stops by we can run some tests just for goofs. But to be honest, I don't think I am going to worry too much. I am just going to enjoy it.


----------



## Selden Ball

If it sounds too quiet, just turn up the volume control










In untreated rooms, people typically listen to movies at relative volume control settings between -20dB and -10dB and to music about 10dB lower. Rooms with good acoustic treatments usually let people listen at higher sound levels.


The internal test tones aren't processed by Audyssey, so they aren't an accurate measure of the output that you usually listen to, but I'm surprised they're that low. Have you replaced the battery in the sound meter?


If you play an audio calibration disc, its tones would be processed by Audyssey and should be heard by the sound meter with the correct sound level. Among modern calibration discs, people seem to like Spears & Munsil v2


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Selden Ball*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24743586
> 
> 
> I*f it sounds too quiet, just turn up the volume control
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> In untreated rooms, people typically listen to movies at relative volume control settings between -20dB and -10dB and to music about 10dB lower. Rooms with good acoustic treatments usually let people listen at higher sound levels.
> 
> 
> The internal test tones aren't processed by Audyssey, so they aren't an accurate measure of the output that you usually listen to, but I'm surprised they're that low. Have you replaced the battery in the sound meter?
> 
> 
> If you play an audio calibration disc, its tones would be processed by Audyssey and should be heard by the sound meter with the correct sound level. Among modern calibration discs, people seem to like Spears & Munsil v2


Smart guy







. I just did replace the battery. I have v1 of that disk which only has video stuff on it. The only other disk I have is Avia and I don't know if that is still relevant today. In my small treated room, I rarely go above -16 on my own. If I want to "impress" some one, I may go a little louder. Again, it sounds great. Even at what would be really low levels like -18 I can still have a good experience. But normally I don't go above -16.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I know sometimes it's just me in here and that's OK







. I just wanted to add something about the video quality I am getting from the server. I would say that the video is top notch. Probably even better then my OPPO. Let me explain why I say that. I recently watch the Immortals. I know it's not the best movie but I enjoy it. Before, when I would watch it on the OPPO with just the BR it was very hard to watch. There parts are very dark in the movie but there is action still going on. With the OPPO, the blacks looked crushed in those parts and you could hardly see anything, let alone any detail. Using the server totally changed that. Now the blacks aren't crushed, I can see more detail and those parts that were impossible to make out, are now easier to see. I don't know the level of the video card that is in the server I have. It might be a low one. But it did make that a more enjoyable movie now. Again, I understand that most people would not buy what I did because they feel it is overpriced. But I can say for me, it is more then worth it. Especially with the improved video quality. Anyway, that's it. Salt looked and sounded awesome too BTW.


----------



## djbluemax1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24795059
> 
> 
> I know sometimes it's just me in here and that's OK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I just wanted to add something about the video quality I am getting from the server. I would say that the video is top notch. Probably even better then my OPPO. Let me explain why I say that. I recently watch the Immortals. I know it's not the best movie but I enjoy it. Before, when I would watch it on the OPPO with just the BR it was very hard to watch. There parts are very dark in the movie but there is action still going on. With the OPPO, the blacks looked crushed in those parts and you could hardly see anything, let alone any detail. Using the server totally changed that. Now the blacks aren't crushed, I can see more detail and those parts that were impossible to make out, are now easier to see. I don't know the level of the video card that is in the server I have. It might be a low one. But it did make that a more enjoyable movie now. Again, I understand that most people would not buy what I did because they feel it is overpriced. But I can say for me, it is more then worth it. Especially with the improved video quality. Anyway, that's it. Salt looked and sounded awesome too BTW.


That's an interesting experience because the Oppo puts out Reference picture quality. The usual advice is to calibrate the display to the Oppo and not to fiddle with the Oppo's setttings even though the Oppo has some video adjustment settings (unless the display's range is insufficient to achieve a proper calibration without also tweaking the Oppo's settings).


It makes me wonder if there's a mismatch in the Video black levels somewhere in the chain?



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *djbluemax1*  /t/1309798/my-ht-2ch-setup/960#post_24796578
> 
> 
> That's an interesting experience because the Oppo puts out Reference picture quality. The usual advice is to calibrate the display to the Oppo and not to fiddle with the Oppo's setttings even though the Oppo has some video adjustment settings (unless the display's range is insufficient to achieve a proper calibration without also tweaking the Oppo's settings).
> 
> 
> It makes me wonder if there's a mismatch in the Video black levels somewhere in the chain?
> 
> 
> 
> Max


I don't know. I can tell you that I have had my TV calibrated a few years ago. I have not touched any of the internal OPPO video options though. That I do know. Craig who has been to my house a number of times and seen my video has said that it looks great with the OPPO. I don't think he has seen much media that I have on the server. TBH, that is the *ONLY BR movie* that I have noticed that "issue" with the OPPO. All other movies through the OPPO, be it DVD or BR always look great. But the server is up to the challenge and with that movie, with my plasma TV, the server beats the OPPO. Now my TV is old and only a 42in Panasonic. I sometimes see floating blacks as well. But again, in my system, with that movie, the server made the movie look better. Trust me, I was very surprised as well. It was a "what the hell" moment. Now when I say that my TV was calibrated, I don't think it was calibrated to the OPPO. It was calibrated to an Esoteric DV50s I was using at the time. And I have not had it re calibrated to my OPPO or my server. I just thought it was interesting and surprising that's all.


----------



## djbluemax1

Interesting result. And you haven't noticed any lightened blacks with any other movies off the server? I was wondering because PC standards use a different black level. If that setting is improperly set, it can raise the black floor. Alternatively, if the TV was calibrated to a different player, the TV may potentially be calibrated with a setting that was compatible with the previous player but crushes black with the Oppo, which is what makes me curious about the cause of the results. Of course, if you don't notice any downsides and it's just an overall improvement, then you could simply enjoy the benefits. I just happen to be the curious type who would want to investigate the why's in my own system.



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

Nope, I have not noticed any other black level from a movie that was on the server that seemed lighter. For ex, the beginning of Alien 2, where it's just a space background when the rescue ship finds Ripply looks great. So does the external shot of the big ship in the same movie. Any other movie that has a night time scene also looks fine. I can't think of any off hand but I can say that if it was there, I would have noticed it. Another movie that I think has night scenes is Jack Reacher, Again, that looked really good. I think it's just that movie for some reason. I just got Ronin. That has at least one night time part that looked good. I am not am not a guy who tinkers, plus I wouldn't know where to start, so I am just going to leave things as they are. Because in other movies, blacks look great but in other movies I do get floating blacks, which is probably a plasma issue. But it's not enough to drive me nuts.


----------



## djbluemax1

In that case, might as well just relax and enjoy the improvement.



Max


----------



## MIkeDuke

I am







. I just thought it was surprising.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. So a few days ago I watched Terminator 3. Not sure what people think about it. I just think of it as one big action sequence, which is not half bad . Anyway, I have the BR version of it. But unlike other BR's, it only had a Dolby Digital soundtrack and not one of the high rez audio formats. I can say that it still sounded really good. Even though it was only regular Dolby Digital, it somehow sounded better then the regular DVD's I have with Dolby Digital. At least to me. I don't know why but it did. Let me put it this way, I did not feel cheated because of this fact. I just thought that was interesting. Then last night I watch WWZ and that still sounds fantastic as well. But I thought that was interesting about T3.


----------



## MIkeDuke

This might be a rambling post but oh well. I admit I am a lazy bastard . That is part of the reason I got the server. It has made my HT experience so much better. The ability to just watch any movie I have, or any series I have at the push of a button is really cool. The audio and video quality are top notch. I fought it for a while, but adding the server was a major upgrade to my system. I have a number of movies that I need to buy and put on there. It will take some time but I will slowly whittle it down. 

I would also like to add that I really like how movies sound. With all this talk of Atmos, I admit I am a bit jealous of people who have bigger rooms and who can fully take advantage of it. It's not a crime to think like that. But from what I have read and found out, it seems that it really doesn't improve the SQ of the system like going from prologic to DTS-MA. It makes for a more enveloped surround experience. TBH, in my small room, with my small 5.1 system, I have what I think is a pretty good surround envelopment experience now. There are plenty of movies where the sound moving around the room, or more specifically, coming out of the surrounds is impressive. Sometimes I fool myself or someone else in the room by thinking that what happened in the room wasn't happening out of the room. So yea, I am pretty happy.

Also, Somewhere in my thread someone posted some covers you can place on lights on your system(I.E amp lights, power lights etc). They came in different sizes. But I can't seem to find that post. If anybody is in here, and they know what they are, can you please post the link again? I really don't feel like going through every page of my thread to find the. As I said, I can be a lazy bastard .
EDIT:
I think I found them
http://www.amazon.com/LightDims-Orig...+light+blocker

I am pretty sure those are it. I may get a set to experiment with.


----------



## dharel

MIkeDuke said:


> This might be a rambling post but oh well. I admit I am a lazy bastard . That is part of the reason I got the server. It has made my HT experience so much better. The ability to just watch any movie I have, or any series I have at the push of a button is really cool. The audio and video quality are top notch. I fought it for a while, but adding the server was a major upgrade to my system. I have a number of movies that I need to buy and put on there. It will take some time but I will slowly whittle it down.
> 
> I would also like to add that I really like how movies sound. With all this talk of Atmos, I admit I am a bit jealous of people who have bigger rooms and who can fully take advantage of it. It's not a crime to think like that. But from what I have read and found out, it seems that it really doesn't improve the SQ of the system like going from prologic to DTS-MA. It makes for a more enveloped surround experience. TBH, in my small room, with my small 5.1 system, I have what I think is a pretty good surround envelopment experience now. There are plenty of movies where the sound moving around the room, or more specifically, coming out of the surrounds is impressive. Sometimes I fool myself or someone else in the room by thinking that what happened in the room wasn't happening out of the room. So yea, I am pretty happy.
> 
> Also, Somewhere in my thread someone posted some covers you can place on lights on your system(I.E amp lights, power lights etc). They came in different sizes. But I can't seem to find that post. If anybody is in here, and they know what they are, can you please post the link again? I really don't feel like going through every page of my thread to find the. As I said, I can be a lazy bastard .
> EDIT:
> I think I found them
> http://www.amazon.com/LightDims-Orig...+light+blocker
> 
> I am pretty sure those are it. I may get a set to experiment with.


Linky no worky in your last post.

This is what you are looking for:

http://www.lightdims.com/

They work very well. Get the combo pack for the best value.


----------



## MIkeDuke

dharel said:


> Linky no worky in your last post.
> 
> This is what you are looking for:
> 
> http://www.lightdims.com/
> 
> They work very well. Get the combo pack for the best value.


 Thanks. I don't know why the link broke though. Strange. On an un related note, some of you in here may know that I was having a hard time playing regular DVD's on my server. When played through Jriver, they were choppy but the audio was good. I did my best to get the chop down by playing with the video card and doing other things. That worked to a degree but there is still some chop. Then I experimented with VLC viewer. That made dvd's look great but I was only getting 2ch audio. Well, playing around today I got it to where when I play a regular DVD with VLC I get Multich on my Integra. It doesn't say DTS or Dolby Digital. Dou you guys think that is close enough audio, if I can't figure out the next step for regular DVD's?
Thanks


----------



## MIkeDuke

Here is a more expansive explanation of what I mention above.

If some of you remember, I was having some issues with regular DVD playback on my server. But I did a number of tweaks and got it looking fairly good with only some chop left. Well, if there is one thing about me I am persistent. A while back I tried the media player VLC. When I watched a DVD rip through that it looked fantastic but I was only getting stereo soundtrack. Fast forward to this past weekend. 

Going through the audio options on the Baetis(Windows OS) and the VLC player, I am now able to get the multich to come and play as an audio source when I watch a DVD rip through the VLC player. It really doesn't sound that bad. Here is what I did.

I had to setup VLC to Directx audio out in two spots and make sure that VLC is "looking" for the 80.3 which is just a simple menu selection Also, one thing that I had to do was to go into the control panel of windows based Baetis server. In there is an icon named sound. If I double click on that another widow pops up and I see my 80.3 listed If you double click on it and then go to supported formats it gives some info. It says max number of channels is 8. 
HDCP supported
Bit depths 16 bit 20 bit and 24 bit.
Then for sample rates it says 32.0 kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz and 88.2 Khz
Then in another box it has Encoded formats
DTS audio
Dolby Digital Plus
DTS-HD
Dolby TrueHD
Dolby Digital.
Then in the advanced mode it says Select the sample rate and bit depth to be used when running in share mode. It goes from 16bit 48000hz(DVD Quality All the way to 24bit 192,000Hz(studio quality).
I have it on the dvd quality.

Now also, I just happen to right click on my 80.3 icon and another screen came up. It allows me to setup my speaker configuration, When I did that, I saw that it was in stereo mode. But, there was a 5.1 surround and 7.1 surround option as well. So, I put it to the 5.1 setting.
After I did all of that, I played a movie and I got the Multich output. 

According to Craig, "The "Multi-Channel" on your pre/pro display just means that the server is decoding the Dolby Digital or DTS track instead of bitstreaming it to the pre/pro for the pre/pro to decode. You must have the output in the VLC player set to PCM. If the decoder in the server is a decent decoder, and assuming it is working properly, the sound should be virtually the same between DD/DTS decoded in the sever or decoded in the pre/pro. Your pre/pro will still apply Audyssey EQ and all the BM and Distance settings, so that should be the same also."

Now Craig mentioned the fact that VLC player is probably set for PCM audio and the server itself is doing the decoding but I still get the EQ function and bass management. He said the only "downside" is that I can't see what format is being played. I guess he means Dolby Digital or DTS. To be honest, it really doesn't matter because I only have one or the other on my DVD rips so as long as it plays which ever is on the rip, I am fine with it. 

So that's it. The server is now doing EVERYTHING I wanted it to do. I tested just a few parts of some DVD rips and it sounds fine and looks great. * If anyone knows if there is a bit stream option in VLC, please let me know and I will switch it.* But if this is as good as it gets, I can easily live it for the 40 or so DVD's I have on the server. I am so glad I decided to just try one more time and play around.


----------



## Selden Ball

Unfortunately, the released version of VLC doesn't seem to provide a "bitstream" option yet. 

You can get the equivalent of bitstream support if you use different player software. See http://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...figure-hdmi-match-number-source-channels.html


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Selden. I think I will stick with what I have right now since I am used to it and it really doesn't sound half bad. Also, Like I said, it's only for the DVD's that I already have on the server and I won't be buying them any more. This is where my laziness kicks in. I just can't be bothered to try and figure out something else when the video looks fantastic and the audio is not that bad. It took me this long to figure everything out, a lot on my own, and I don't feel like messing with a good thing . But thanks again. 
P.S Still saving for the RAID slowly but surely.


----------



## Selden Ball

It is an entertainment system, after all. If it entertains you, then it's doing its job!


----------



## MIkeDuke

It certainly is entertaining me. The overall setup really does a great job. Would I like more? Sure, but I am trying to do the best I can with what I have to work with.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I just wanted to give a full update(review) now that I have watched a movie. I watched Open Range last night which is a DVD rip. First the video was very good. There was no jaggedness at all. The colors of the landscape in the beginning were really vibrant. Detail on close up shots of different people were also very clear and detailed. I was very happy with the video. On the audio side I was equally happy. The thunder at the start of the movie was potent and had some power. All of the gunshots were crisp and had impact(the shotgun as well). But the dialog as well was crystal clear. I could make out every word, even low level dialog and mumbles were clearer now. In addition little insects flying around were convincing. I will probably watch a few more as tests. 

This is probably just for when I watch a movie. If I wanted to give someone a demo. I doubt I would use a dvd rip. I would want them to get the full experience so I would use a BR rip. But for stuff that I watch, it's great. I am really glad I played around a bit more. Now everything looks and sounds great .


----------



## MIkeDuke

You know, it was fun while it lasted, but I don't think it's going to work. I looked really hard and could not find a 2:35 screen in the size I needed. The only screen I found in the size I wanted was a 1:78 screen that was 64in. But even that is too big. I think height wise at 35.6in high. That's just not going to work. The smallest 2:35 screen I found was 80in and that really is not going work. I need something that is not that tall. 2:35 seems to fit the bill but not in my size. I am sure if I wanted a custom one it could be done but at more money. So I am resolved to letting this go, unless someone else has an idea. 
Also, standard 16x9 in that size is also just to big in the height area. Oh well. At least I had a dream about it .


----------



## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> You know, it was fun while it lasted, but I don't think it's going to work. I looked really hard and could not find a 2:35 screen in the size I needed. The only screen I found in the size I wanted was a 1:78 screen that was 64in. But even that is too big. I think height wise at 35.6in high. That's just not going to work. The smallest 2:35 screen I found was 80in and that really is not going work. I need something that is not that tall. 2:35 seems to fit the bill but not in my size. I am sure if I wanted a custom one it could be done but at more money. So I am resolved to letting this go, unless someone else has an idea.
> Also, standard 16x9 in that size is also just to big in the height area. Oh well. At least I had a dream about it .


You should enquire on the custom one Mike, It might be not be that much.


----------



## MIkeDuke

We shall see Frank, we shall see. Still in the planning out, will this really work stage right now. It may end up being more cost prohibitive then I thought. I will let it sink in for a while. I mean, it's not like I am in a rush or anything.


----------



## Selden Ball

Have you considered masking a standard 16:9 screen? People often use black velvet material to block the areas they don't use.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Have you considered masking a standard 16:9 screen? People often use black velvet material to block the areas they don't use.


There are "issues" that I really don't want to get into here. Due to the size of what the 16:9 screen would be, it would just be too large for me to get away with it. Plus the masking is more money to put out and I am not about to let this thing spiral out of control. Reading some stuff in the 2:35 section has made me just take this really slow now. It seems that people are not full satisfied with that solution. I need this to be as easy to setup and user friendly as possible. I am not sure a masking system would make things easier for me in the long run. But thanks for the idea.


----------



## MIkeDuke

It's really 2:35 or nothing I am afraid. I need to watch the height of the screen. If I go to Draper, and play around, a 16x9 65" screen would have be 56.65in wide and 31.86in high. A 2:35 screen would be 59.81in wide but only 25.45in high. That 6in height would mean a lot to me. But I may need to add that 6in back in overall material to get the screen at a comfortable height. I just don't know. My current TV has dimensions of 
40.6" in wide and 25.5in high. So I would be gaining a significant amount of width for 2:35 movies but probably not much for 16x9 movies regular TV shows. It's all very confusing to me . Most of my movies are 2:35 or 2:40 but I do have some that are 16x9. There are just a lot of factors I have to think about.


----------



## Selden Ball

If you rearrange your equipment (move some of the taller ones to the left side shelving), you might be able to reduce the maximum height of your shelving. That might allow the use of a taller screen or TV.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Craig already moved a ton of stuff for me(I am physically unable to work on my on system) and I really don't want to have to do that again. I need to keep my 42" in TV in the room because someone whom I watch a lot of TV and movies with can't handle a screen much bigger than that. So, I would have to drop the screen in front of my racks. If I do that, There is another person I have to take into consideration who would look at how big a 16x9 screen would be and would not be happy with that. The whole thing relies on me being able to drop a screen in front of my TV, and also low enough so I don't get neck strain. I know I am asking a lot but it's the only way it can get done. 65"-70" 2:35 is my limit. 

The whole idea was to keep the smaller screen for the person who really doesn't like a huge screen but still allow me the chance to watch on a big screen when I have the chance. If Craig makes it over to my place, we still may think about how it can be done. I still am hoping that I can do it but I also understand it will take work. There are forces working against me that I would rather not get into.


----------



## Selden Ball

I understand. When more than one person is involved, there always are compromises that have to be made.


----------



## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> We shall see Frank, we shall see. Still in the planning out, will this really work stage right now. It may end up being more cost prohibitive then I thought. I will let it sink in for a while. I mean, it's not like I am in a rush or anything.


Take your time Mike, no rush at all mate. Like me I now have to wait awhile. Wife's oven have broken down and have to replace them. Unfortunately that takes priority 😔


----------



## MIkeDuke

Franin said:


> Take your time Mike, no rush at all mate. Like me I now have to wait awhile. Wife's oven have broken down and have to replace them. Unfortunately that takes priority 😔


Yea, I would say food is a priority. I keep on going back and forth. My only thing is I am wondering if a 2:35 screen is worth it. Yea, it will be wider by a good margin, but it's the height. I think the height will be as big as my TV if I have it in full mode which won't be too bad. Visually, the screen won't look as intense but the width would probably be a nice thing to have. I just need to think on it and see if I convince the right people.,


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## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> Yea, I would say food is a priority. I keep on going back and forth. My only thing is I am wondering if a 2:35 screen is worth it. Yea, it will be wider by a good margin, but it's the height. I think the height will be as big as my TV if I have it in full mode which won't be too bad. Visually, the screen won't look as intense but the width would probably be a nice thing to have. I just need to think on it and see if I convince the right people.,


You could also look at getting a larger TV, Mike?


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## MIkeDuke

A larger TV like a bigger plasma would require me to change TV stands and possibly get rid of my racks that I have presently. And again, I wanted something that I could use on my own and when I have company who can't look at a bigger screen, I could still use the 42in TV. I know I am probably asking for the impossible. But it doesn't hurt to try .


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## MIkeDuke

Still talking with different people about this. If I should do it. How it would look. The aspect ratio thing really has my head spinning. While movies, for the most part are 2:35, I do have some that are different aspect ratios. Plus I have series also Take for ex Star Trek TNG. Those ratios are all over the place
star trek TNG S1 1:33
star trek TNG S2 1:77
star trek TNG S3 1:85
star trek TNG S4 1:85
star trek TNG S5 1:33
star trek TNG S6 1:33

Then I have Deadwood
Deadwood S1 1:77
Deadwood S2 1:78
Deadwood S3 1:78

Then I know I have some TV series and mini series that I know are 1:33. I mean, how would all that look on a 2:35 screen. I think on a 2:35 screen, those would not look much bigger then my 42in TV now right? Right now I have my TV setup so that I never see any bars for 4:3 content. I have it in what I think is "full" mode. Now for somethings that gets rid of the black bars but for most content it does not. Man oh man. I knew there was a reason I stayed away from video .


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## Selden Ball

If you have a 16:9 TV and are not seeing dark sidebars for 4:3 content, then either the top and bottom are being lost (cut off) or the image is being distorted (stretched horizontally). 

In general, one would expect images that are narrower than the screen to be "pillar-boxed", with dark (unilluminated) regions on both sides of the projected image. I think that's often referred to as a "constant height" system, and is standard when widescreen (2.35:1) screens are used.


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## MIkeDuke

I don't have any dark bars when I watch regular cable or a show that is 4:3. I am using the least intrusive mode my TV has. I really can't see any distortion in the mode I use. Now there are modes that I don't use where the distortion is easily viewed and I never use those. My TV has
*Full*-Enlarges the 4:3 image horizontally to the screen’s side edges.
(Recommended for anamorphic picture) That looks good. I am pretty sure this is what I use. 

*Just*-Stretches to justify the 4:3 image to the four corners of the 
screen. (Recommended for normal TV broadcast) That looks almost like Full. Just a little difference

*H-Fill*-Enlarges the 4:3 image horizontally to the screen’s side 
edges. The side edges of the image are cut off. Looks like Crap. I never use that.

*4:3*-(Note that “Image retention” of the side bar may occur from
displaying it for a long time.) I don't use that because it is a plasma and I don't want any grey areas.

*Zoom*-Enlarges the 4:3 image to the entire screen. 
(Recommended for Letter Box) I sometimes use that. That also has adjustments that I never used. 
If you want some visual representation go to page 55 here
http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/TCP42G25.PDF


Now really, the only one that causes major distortion is H-Fill so I never use that. 

So you see, that is what I am used to. I was hoping the projector had something similar to that so I could make 4:3 not have the vertical bars while still have the movie aspect ratios in tact. If that makes sense. 

As you see, I am still chasing the mice in my head, which is a dangerous thing to do. But I do appreciate any and all thoughts.


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## Selden Ball

Some projectors have similar stretch features but some do not, so you'll have to carefully inspect the manuals of the ones you're considering.


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## MIkeDuke

The Panasonic has these
*16:9*-Projects at 16:9. (Enlarged horizontally)

*Just*-Adjusts horizontally to fit 16:9. When projecting a 4:3 aspect ratio video, distortion in the center of the screen is reduced. (Enlarged horizontally)

*Zoom*-Enlarges while preserving original ratio.The projected video may be clipped in some cases, but the video can be accurately reproduced.Use the ▲ ▼ buttons to adjust vertically.(_Not available with HDMI signal._)


The Panasonic has this that I would probably try:
*Just*:Adjusts horizontally to fit 16:9. When projecting a 4:3 aspect ratio video, distortion in the center of the screen is reduced.
(Enlarged horizontally). That would be good for TV shows and any videos that are 4:3
The issue is with the Panasonic is that on a few of them it says it won't work with a HDMI signal. Well that doesn't help me. Zoom doesn't look like it would help me because it doesn't work with HDMI signals. Again, I don't know how a 16:9 movie would look like on a 2:35 screen if I can't get it to fit the screen and not look like crap. 

The Epson 5030 has these
*Auto* Automatically sets the aspect ratio according to the input signal.

*Norma*l Displays images using the full projection area and maintains the
aspect ratio of the image.

*Zoom* Displays images using the full width of the projection area and
maintains the aspect ratio of the image.

*Full* Displays images using the full width of the projection area, but does
not maintain the aspect ratio.
With the Epson, it actually looks like it's better in that regard. Normal and Zoom both look promising. A bit more than the the Panny. 

But this is just my inexperienced eye looking at this. I find it odd that you can't use zoom on the Panny with an HDMI signal. I mean, to me, that is a serious option not allowed. So the key is, can I make 16x9 and 4:3 look good with these projectors and a 2:35 screen. I would like to use as much of the screen as possible when I watch those aspect ratios. See, more complications .


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## Selden Ball

People often use video processors in between the video signal source and the projector to provide image resizing and other capabilities that the projector itself doesn't provide. Of course, that would be another device which would need to be upgraded at significant expense if/when you go to 4K.


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## MIkeDuke

I think the Lumagen is one right? But that's another expense. I am not sure how far I want to take this for something that may not be used every day. More things to think about.
YAY .


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## MIkeDuke

I know Craig said he would jump in here when he had the time but I just wanted to add a bit more. Last night I listened to some more music. I listened to some Audioslave. Not high end music to say the least. Pretty heavy and driving at times. But I have to say that it sounded fantastic. You can say it's my imagination. That's OK. But I know that the lyrics were clearer. Chris does not have the best voice in the world. But I heard more distinct lyrics this time then I ever did before. Some parts are still impossible but that's his style. But a lot of other parts were easier to understand without straining myself. It sounded cleaner. I don't know why but it did. Also, the music sounded better. It did not sound like it was mashed up. Plus the center sound stage improved. So I know we did something. Either re running the EQ or setting the distance in in the Integra made a major difference. Craig said that by re doing the distance, we insured that the sound would reach my main seat at the correct time. What ever we did, I know it's not a placebo effect. It sounds much better then it did before.


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Saturday Craig was nice enough to come for a bit. About two weeks ago, he said how about I come over Sat and we do some watching on your system. Well, of course I said that would be great. So Craig came over at about 11:00 and left about 4:00. Now, knowing he was coming over I asked if we could just do some quick testing. I did not want that to take up too much time because normally when he comes over, all we end up doing is connecting something I bought or setting something else up and we really have not watched to many full movies in my room. It's normally just clips. That changed on Sat though. More on that later.
> 
> So first when I replied back I asked if he would mind taking some measurements. I thought something was wrong but I did not know what it was. Whenever I would run test tones with my Integra I never got a reading on my Rat Shack SPL meter. It would always say "low". I knew something was wrong but I did not know what it was. Craig brought over his own analog spl meter. Long story short, the problem I was having was that my digital spl meter was broke . So there was nothing wrong with my system. Let this be a lesson. When you measure, make sure what you are using is working properly.


If your system is playing and you can hear some SPL, but the SPL meter only says "Lo", there likely something wrong with the SPL meter. 



MIkeDuke said:


> We made some adjustments to the levels so that all the speakers were at 75db and I think we set the sub to 78db. Then, for some reason, which I can't remember, we made some changes with my SMS-1. It was a little more work because I did not have the mic on hand but Craig used his laptop. So we did some tests and he made some adjustments in there as well.


The SMS-1 tweak was to correct a dip I found just above where we had previously made a huge cut with 3 bands of the SMS-1. These cuts were done to correct a huge peak at about 45 Hz. We've documented that process previously in Mike's thread, so I won't bother to explain that further. The huge cut was causing a dip just above the problem frequencies. I took one of the filter bands, narrowed the Q in that band to about 1/6th octave, and reduced the cut in that band by 3 dB. There was still enough correction to cut the problem frequencies, but the dip above the problem frequencies disappeared. 



MIkeDuke said:


> Then after that we ran Audyssey. It seems every time we do it, Craig learned a new trick. So we ran it, Craig did some tweaks. After that it sounded insane.


New trick this time was to run with the mic at the 1st position twice, making the 1st position a higher priority. Since Mike's sweet spot is the highest priority, adding a 2nd measurement there gave it higher priority in Audyssey's "fuzzy logic." The result was somewhat flatter response post Audyssey. 





MIkeDuke said:


> Craig sat in the center seat with the Crowson. First we just listened to one or two songs. He said the center image was really good. It sounded great from where I was sitting as well. Craig saw that one speaker was moved a bit so he went in and adjusted the distance. That made a big difference.


I did the tweak where you can adjust the position of a phantom central image by adjusting the relative speaker distance. The phantom central image was being pulled slightly to the right. I added the smallest increment possible to the distance of the right speaker, (0.1 ft.) The central image snapped right back in the center of the front stage. (For anyone reading along who wants to understand how this works, do a search for the "Haas Effect" or the "precedence effect.")



MIkeDuke said:


> Then we were able to watched X-Men Days of Future Past. I know I say this every time, but my system has never sounded better. Because of the new calibration(I don't know what was different), we were able to listen to it with the level higher then I have listened before. I think we were at -13. It sounded incredible. It was so smooth and the highs all the way to bass was just fantastic. Craig was in the Crowson seat so he got that extra shake. I think he liked what we ended up with. It was really tough though to do the setup because there was a lot of traffic right outside my window and we were worried that it would mess the calibration up. But that really did not mess anything up thankfully.


Audyssey did repeat several measurements, adding 10 dB to the level of the chirps because it found the ambient background noise too high on some of the test runs. However, it compensates for those higher level test signals, and the Audyssey run turned out fine. The results sounded as good to me as they did to Mike. 

Mike has a fairly high-powered system in a small room at a relatively close seating distance. The combination of his room treatments, the SMS-1 pre-Audyssey and then Audyssey's XT32 Room Correction make his system sound just spectacular. The fact that Mike's well-trained ears enjoy it as much as they do is testament to that. 



MIkeDuke said:


> I am really impressed with how great my system sounds now. I am back to not wishing I had other speakers. I hope Craig comes in here and maybe posts some of his thoughts on my system . Anyway, it was a great day. After Craig left I watched Snow White and The Huntsman. Sound=awesome. Then I also watched a little of Die Hard 5. Sound=incredible. So thanks again Craig. You helped bring my system up a few more levels.


It was indeed a fun day Mike. Thanks for hosting me. 

Craig


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> I know Craig said he would jump in here when he had the time but I just wanted to add a bit more. Last night I listened to some more music. I listened to some Audioslave. Not high end music to say the least. Pretty heavy and driving at times. But I have to say that it sounded fantastic. You can say it's my imagination. That's OK. But I know that the lyrics were clearer. Chris does not have the best voice in the world. But I heard more distinct lyrics this time then I ever did before. Some parts are still impossible but that's his style. But a lot of other parts were easier to understand without straining myself. It sounded cleaner. I don't know why but it did. Also, the music sounded better. It did not sound like it was mashed up. Plus the center sound stage improved. So I know we did something. Either re running the EQ or setting the distance in in the Integra made a major difference. Craig said that by re doing the distance, we insured that the sound would reach my main seat at the correct time. What ever we did, I know it's not a placebo effect. It sounds much better then it did before.


I'm really glad you're enjoying it so much. I think the biggest improvement we made was to allow the system to be turned up higher than you were running it. At -12, you are still within the safe operating range of the Crowson, so feel free to use the MVC to put that smile on your face. 

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks for the update on what we did Craig. I still am impressed with how great everything sounds now. The trend seems to be high sensitivity, high output speakers or powered speakers. There are quite a few people who have Mark S speakers and I can comment first hand that they are dynamic and crystal clear beyond imagination. Craig is using speakers that are very high sensitive(at least 94db) and that coupled with his subs, treatment and eq'ing of the system make it an experience I have seldom heard repeated. Claude is using the Triad Gold L\C\R which are 92db and also like the speakers Craig has, aren't made to go very low so I assume they are also very dynamic. Then you have all the JTR guys who have speakers that are sensitive as well and that I am sure can just hit high spl with no issue. 

Then you have me. My speakers are designed to be full range and are not very sensitive. Probably 90db and dip into 4ohm territory on a good day. Just like Frank has. But, with proper setup, they sound fantastic and I am not lacking for dynamics at all. The entire system just sounds so good and like Craig said, we had it up to -12. I just want to say that it was Craig's idea to do that . We were watching the movie, I think we started at -18 like I normally do and he said turn it up. So I did, I went up to -17 . So he took the remote from me and put it to -12. It sounded so freaking smooth I could not believe it. No fatigue at all. I did not think I could go that high. I still don't know why doing what we did is allowing me to turn the system up so high but it is. TBH, scenes like the beginning of EOT, or when Sam gets transported to the grid or when the big dragon attacks in HTTYD still scare me so I may not be that brave and back it down a bit with those. But right now, it sounds superb. Thanks again Craig.


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## Spanglo

So satisfying when everything comes together - nice work. Now you can sit back and enjoy... at least until the next round of tweaking begins. Any hardware changes on the horizon? Not that you need any. 

I also have a small room, with a 10' MLP, so it's easy to understand why you go past -12. What distance is your MLP?

There's definitely something to be said about the efficiency of high sensitivity speakers. High SPL with minimal wattage, sign me up!


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## MIkeDuke

Spanglo said:


> So satisfying when everything comes together - nice work. Now you can sit back and enjoy... at least until the next round of tweaking begins. Any hardware changes on the horizon? Not that you need any.
> 
> I also have a small room, with a 10' MLP, so it's easy to understand why you go past -12. What distance is your MLP?
> 
> There's definitely something to be said about the efficiency of high sensitivity speakers. High SPL with minimal wattage, sign me up!


Yes it is. But it would not be where it is today without my consulting with Craig and other people and his great skill at calibrating my system. He has done it so many times that he could probably do it in his sleep. My MLP is probably between 8-9 feet. My SPL meter is broken so I don't know how loud I am getting now but I do know that in my room, around 105db peaks are really loud. I can go louder if I want. I think the loudest I ever measured a while ago was about 110-112db. That was during WOTW and it scared me for real. I have 300 watts going to my L\R and 150 watts to my center and surrounds plus my 2400 watt sub so I think I am good on the power front. But having speakers that have high sensitivity sure makes it easier. 

As for hardware changes, I don't think so. The amps suit me fine. The 80.3 does the job I need it to and I really can't get a bigger TV. Also, my speakers are great(to me). So probably no major changes. Thanks for stopping by.


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## Selden Ball

Mike,

Surely you want to upgrade your speaker system to include overhead speakers for Atmos and Auro3D! What would any modern A/V system be without support for those new up-and-coming audio formats????


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Mike,
> 
> Surely you want to upgrade your speaker system to include overhead speakers for Atmos and Auro3D! What would any modern A/V system be without support for those new up-and-coming audio formats????


La La La La. I can't hear you. But to be serious, there are a few reasons why this can't easily be done. First, with my ceiling treatments, I am not sure I could get the "proper" positioning for them(the speakers). Second, I would need another amp or trade in my amps and try to get two to power all the speakers I would need. Third, I would need a new preamp. Unlike a lot of people I run separates. A lot of people are running receivers so I think that makes it easier for them. I would need to get a pre amp that would support the new formats. 

But even if all that other stuff was possible, the biggest road block is my server. It is only HDMI 1.4 not 2.0. You need 2.0 to get full Atmos playback. I don't know of any ready made server that is as easy to use as my Baetis that I could get. Before you say "just change boards", I don't know if that can be done and I wouldn't know how to do it anyway. I am a server guy now. I really don't want to go back to disks again. So, my one plan is, once more titles come out that I like with Atmos, I will upgrade to the latest version of Jriver and I will at least get TRUHD. The only other way is get a custom made server with an HDMI 2.0 board. Someone built one for a HToTM so I would probaly turn to him. But what I have works in my room so probably no Atmos for me. But thanks for stoking the fire .


----------



## Spanglo

Yeah that Craig guy knows his stuff.  To be honest, I've been slowly gaining knowledge from him for years.

Not to be a pill, but with your narrow room you could wall mount the speakers at ceiling. Also, I play Atmos material on my HDMI 1.4 setup.


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## MIkeDuke

Spanglo said:


> Yeah that Craig guy knows his stuff.  To be honest, I've been slowly gaining knowledge from him for years.
> 
> Not to be a pill, but with your narrow room you could wall mount the speakers at ceiling. *Also, I play Atmos material on my HDMI 1.4 setup*.


So you get the actual Atmos soundtrack through an HDMI 1.4 setup? I thought that was impossible. Just to be clear, if I had an Atmos preamp, and jriver 20(which supports Atmos) you are saying that I could get the full Atmos soundtrack and not just the TRUHD "core" with my server that only has HDMI 1.4. Take Transformers 4 for example. That has an Atmos soundtrack. I could get the full soundtrack with my current server? If so, that would be great for the future.

It would be great if you could explain how you do it without having HDMI 2.0.


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## Spanglo

Yes, I run what little Atmos material is avail thru my htpc, use Jriver v19 and powerdvd14, with HDMI 1.4 - no issues.


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## MIkeDuke

I have JR 18 right now because it suits my needs. But do you need both JR and powerdvd 14
I did find powerdvd online
http://www.cyberlink.com/products/powerdvd-ultra/features_en_US.html
Do those play back Atmos as well?

But I would still be unsure how to use that kind of setup. Do you somehow run JR and powerdvd together? Which version did you get? This is an interesting development and if it works as you say, well, that would make me very happy. But how does it all flow together. I have the latest version of MakeMKV which can get me the Atmos soundtrack. If you had steps on what to do, that would be great.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> La La La La. I can't hear you.





> But to be serious, there are a few reasons why this can't easily be done. First, with my ceiling treatments, I am not sure I could get the "proper" positioning for them(the speakers). Second, I would need another amp or trade in my amps and try to get two to power all the speakers I would need. Third, I would need a new preamp. Unlike a lot of people I run separates. A lot of people are running receivers so I think that makes it easier for them. I would need to get a pre amp that would support the new formats.


 Right: you'd need (at least) two more amp channels + two more speakers, preferably four of each. The Denon/Marantz Atmos-capable AVRs include a full set of preamp outputs in addition to their internal amps, so (in principle at least) the additional overhead speaker channels could be driven by the AVR while you continue to use your existing amps for your existing speakers. The Marantz AV7702 pre/pro ($2K list) just started shipping. The AV8802, which probably would be considered more the equivalent of your current pre/pro, won't be available until next spring. FWIW, D+M still have Audyssey, unlike Onkyo/Integra, which has dropped it for this model year so they could provide Atmos more cheaply.



> But even if all that other stuff was possible, the biggest road block is my server. It is only HDMI 1.4 not 2.0. You need 2.0 to get full Atmos playback.


 (Un)fortunately, that's incorrect. Atmos works fine with HDMI 1.4. e.g. I've played Atmos soundtracks using a Sony BDP-S590 Blu-ray player, which predates HDMI V2.

However, HDMI V2.0 with HDCP V2.2 copy-protection *is* required for copy-protected 4K video, and equipment containing HDCP chips capable of full bandwidth 18GHz 4K video (e.g. from 4K Blu-rays) won't be available until next year. Current HDCP V2.2 chipsets only support up to 10GHz.



> I don't know of any ready made server that is as easy to use as my Baetis that I could get. Before you say "just change boards", I don't know if that can be done and I wouldn't know how to do it anyway.


No new boards will be needed, for Atmos, anyhow.


> I am a server guy now. I really don't want to go back to disks again. So, my one plan is, once more titles come out that I like with Atmos, I will upgrade to the latest version of Jriver and I will at least get TRUHD.


 Atmos support does require an up-to-date copy of JRiver. There's a bug in their Dolby TrueHD audio decoding that was fixed in roughly the past month so Atmos soundtracks could be played.


> The only other way is get a custom made server with an HDMI 2.0 board. Someone built one for a HToTM so I would probaly turn to him. But what I have works in my room so probably no Atmos for me. But thanks for stoking the fire .


 Understood. But, as Spanglo and I have pointed out, you won't really need to upgrade to HDMI v2 for Atmos -- not until you decide it's time for 4K video. That'll require replacing both your pre/pro and your TV in addition to upgrading your server's HDMI output. By that time it hopefully would be a standard upgrade option rather than a specialty item.

Waiting at least another year might be appropriate  (If Sony does actually produce any, 4K Blu-rays are expected to start shipping barely in time for the 2015 holiday season.)

I'd been thinking about upgrading from 5.1 to 11.1 for a couple of years, so the availability of Atmos at an almost reasonable price was enough to push me over the edge.


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## MIkeDuke

Well all this is very interesting. This is a lot to digest right now. I have no real immediate plans for 4k. So in reality, "all" I would need is a new preamp, and the upgraded version of Jriver. Then I could get the Atmos soundtrack? I plan on getting the Jriver upgrade when more Atmos disks are released. Then I can at least get TRUHD for the time being until I decide to upgrade to a newer preamp. The other thing is I am kind of spatially challenged when it comes to equipment. Adding another amp, in addition to what I have would be a pain. I am wondering if Atmos 5.1 is a noticeable improvement over TRUHD or DTS-MA. 
My head is swimming right now. Thanks for the info guys. It is most helpful.


----------



## Spanglo

MIkeDuke said:


> I have JR 18 right now because it suits my needs. But do you need both JR and powerdvd 14
> I did find powerdvd online
> http://www.cyberlink.com/products/powerdvd-ultra/features_en_US.html
> Do those play back Atmos as well?
> 
> But I would still be unsure how to use that kind of setup. Do you somehow run JR and powerdvd together? Which version did you get? This is an interesting development and if it works as you say, well, that would make me very happy. But how does it all flow together. I have the latest version of MakeMKV which can get me the Atmos soundtrack. If you had steps on what to do, that would be great.


To clarify, PowerDVD14 for ISO playback only, JR19 handles everything else. Actual Disc playback thru PS4. 

I remember reading in the JR forums that there is a way to configure JR to automatically play ISO via PDVD, so it has been done successfully.


----------



## Selden Ball

Another FWIW: almost everybody who has heard it considers the new Dolby Surround upmixer (which accompanies Atmos but is not part of it) to be a substantial improvement over the Dolby ProLogic and Audyssey DSX upmixers -- enough better that it's worth doing the upgrade just for that. Some people do feel that there are a small number of circumstances where DTS Neo:X seems to be better, though. DSU can be used with any soundtrack, not just those recorded using Dolby. 

Maybe Craig can provide an Atmos-capable unit for you to try?

Sometimes this seems like we're all addicts trying to push a new drug on the unsuspecting....


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks for the clarification Spanglo. That may be above my pay grade, if you know what I mean.

Selden. I guess this is my main question. Will I hear a significant difference in movies in a 5.1 setup between TRUHD, DTS-MA or Atmos. This is why I ask. When I went from Dolby Prologic to Dolby Digital, I heard a big difference. Then when I went from just the "core" audio to full Dolby Digital and DTS I heard a difference. Then when I went from Dolby Digital and DTS to TRUHD and DTS-MA I heard a difference. This is all still with a 5.1 system. I would say that each change was worth the price. In a 5.1 setup, will I hear a big enough difference to warrant upgrading to Atmos. 

It seems like I could do the Atmos audio if I get an Atmos preamp and upgrade my Jriver. Now upgrading the preamp won't happen soon but when there are more, good Atmos titles, I would upgrade Jriver so I could at least get TRUHD with my 80.3. Then, later down the line, I would think about upgrading to an Atmos preamp. *But only if the Sound Quality in a 5.1 system would be noticeably better then what I would have with TRUHD. *

So for arguments sake, are we saying that I could get the new Marantz preamp, upgrade to Jriver 20, plug my server into the Marantz and I would get an Atmos soundtrack? If so then that is perfect because I will have no use for 4k until long in the future. 
Let me know if I have my logic straight guys because I am out of my element here .
Selden, are also saying that it is possible to up mix a TRUHD track to an Atmos track? Or any track for that matter? Even the way I would have it connected? 
Thanks for the info .


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Thanks for the clarification Spanglo. That may be above my pay grade, if you know what I mean.
> 
> Selden. I guess this is my main question. Will I hear a significant difference in movies in a 5.1 setup between TRUHD, DTS-MA or Atmos.


Yes.


> This is why I ask. When I went from Dolby Prologic to Dolby Digital, I heard a big difference. Then when I went from just the "core" audio to full Dolby Digital and DTS I heard a difference. Then when I went from Dolby Digital and DTS to TRUHD and DTS-MA I heard a difference. This is all still with a 5.1 system. I would say that each change was worth the price. In a 5.1 setup, will I hear a big enough difference to warrant upgrading to Atmos.


*I* think so, but I think it would be appropriate for you to experience it yourself to find out if it's a big enough improvement for you. There might be an A/V store near you which has set up a room to demo it. (Unfortunately, many of them aren't set up correctly. There have been horror stories about how bad some Best Buy/Magnolia stores are.)



> It seems like I could do the Atmos audio if I get an Atmos preamp and upgrade my Jriver. Now upgrading the preamp won't happen soon but when there are more, good Atmos titles, I would upgrade Jriver so I could at least get TRUHD with my 80.3.


 TrueHD has been around since the beginning of Blu-ray and DVD-HD production, so I'd be surprised if your copy of JRiver doesn't support TrueHD already. It's just the newly added Atmos component that older versions of JRiver has difficulty with.

If you don't already have some movies with TrueHD soundtracks and want to test TrueHD (with or without Atmos), a variety of "lossless" demo trailers are available for downloading at http://www.demo-world.eu/trailers/high-definition-trailers.php Scroll down to the section headed "Dolby" and look for the entries with "lossless" in the description. 



> Then, later down the line, I would think about upgrading to an Atmos preamp. *But only if the Sound Quality in a 5.1 system would be noticeably better then what I would have with TRUHD. * It should be noticeable, since, after all, an Atmos soundtrack will make direct use of overhead speakers while a standard 7.1 or 5.1 soundtrack does not. (Although Dolby ProLogic IIz, Audyssey DSX and DTS Neo:X can upmix to use Front Height overhead speakers.)
> 
> Titles with Atmos soundtracks contain a standard Dolby TrueHD 7.1 soundtrack which has been enhanced to include Atmos metadata. That metadata describes how audio objects (defined by whoever mixed the movie's soundtrack) move around the room. In order to decode Atmos, current implementations require that you have overhead speakers, so you'd have what Dolby calls a 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 configuration. If you use Atmos equipment but don't have any overhead speakers, an Atmos-capable AVR or pre/pro plays any Atmos-enabled TrueHD 7.1 soundtrack downmixed to 5.1, just as non-Atmos equipment does.
> 
> Many movies with TrueHD soundtracks are already available, although most of them were produced in the early days of Blu-rays and DVD-HD. The dominance by DTS-HD MA happened later because of the greater ease of use of the DTS encoder software in mixing studios. (easier -> quicker -> cheaper)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So for arguments sake, are we saying that I could get the new Marantz preamp, upgrade to Jriver 20, plug my server into the Marantz and I would get an Atmos soundtrack?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> If so then that is perfect because I will have no use for 4k until long in the future.
> 
> Let me know if I have my logic straight guys because I am out of my element here .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're close!
> 
> 
> 
> Selden, are also saying that it is possible to up mix a TRUHD track to an Atmos track? Or any track for that matter? Even the way I would have it connected?
> Thanks for the info .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not exactly. Rather, Dolby has produced a new surround-sound upmixer they've given the old name Dolby Surround (to the annoyance of those of us who were around when they first introduced it decades ago). It's being made available at the same time as Dolby Atmos and replaces ProLogic on most Atmos-capable equipment. (I say "most" because Yamaha has managed to provide both ProLogic and Dolby Surround in their Atmos receivers.) The new Dolby Surround upmixer produces effects which sound very similar to what good Atmos soundtracks are expected to sound like. It seems to be particularly effective when applied to soundtracks of movies which were released theatrically with Atmos soundtracks, although most of them have been released on disc with DTS-HD MA soundtracks.
Click to expand...


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## MIkeDuke

"TrueHD has been around since the beginning of Blu-ray and DVD-HD production, so I'd be surprised if your copy of JRiver doesn't support TrueHD already. It's just the newly added Atmos component that older versions of JRiver has difficulty with."

I was unclear with that. I get both TRUHD and DTS-MA from my Jriver setup. What I meant by being able to get TRUHD was when upgrade to the latest version of Jriver. So when I played an ATMOS movie, it would default to TRUHD. Right now, in my setup, I am only getting a high rez version of Dolby Digital because I am using JR18 which can't read it. I tried it and it did not work. So I do get TRUHD and DTS-MA on all my BR rips that have them as audio options. As I said, I just want to be able to get the TRUHD soundtrack out of Atmos soundtracks at some point and for that I need to upgrade to JR20. Sorry for the confusion .

"In order to decode Atmos, current implementations require that you have overhead speakers, so you'd have what Dolby calls a 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 configuration. If you use Atmos equipment but don't have any overhead speakers, an Atmos-capable AVR or pre/pro plays any Atmos-enabled TrueHD 7.1 soundtrack downmixed to 5.1, just as non-Atmos equipment does."

OK. So if I played an Atmos soundtrack, through my standard 5.1 setup,* I WOULD NOT *get an Atmos soundtrack even with an Atmos capable preamp. Is that what we are saying? I would just get a *TRUHD *sound track played back through my 5.1 system. So if I plan on sticking with a 5.1 setup, at this point in time, it makes no sense to get an Atmos preamp. But, could I still rip the Atmos soundtrack so it is at least on my server and play back TRUHD with my Integra 80.3?

So all I need right now is to upgrade to Jriver 20.x.x and then I could have the Atmos soundtrack stored, ready to go, but in the mean time still get TRUHD. Is that correct?
Thanks for all of that great info. It has been very helpful.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> "\
> OK. So if I played an Atmos soundtrack, through my standard 5.1 setup,* I WOULD NOT *get an Atmos soundtrack. Is that what we are saying?


Yes.


> I would just get a *TRUHD *sound track played back through my 5.1 system. So if I plan on sticking with a 5.1 setup, at this point in time, it makes no sense to get an Atmos preamp. But, could I still rip the Atmos soundtrack so it is at least on my server and play back TRUHD with my Integra 80.3?


In principle, yes.


> So all I need right now is to upgrade to Jriver 20.x.x and then I could have the Atmos soundtrack stored, ready to go, but in the mean time still get TRUHD. Is that correct?


That's my understanding.


> Thanks for all of that great info. It has been very helpful.


 You're very welcome.

Yet another FWIW: you could consider adding Front Height speakers to your current configuration, since they're supported by all of the upmixers and by your current pre/pro. That "investment" would carry forward to whatever future speaker configuration you decide on.


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Yet another FWIW: you could consider adding Front Height speakers to your current configuration, since they're supported by all of the upmixers and by your current pre/pro. That "investment" would carry forward to whatever future speaker configuration you decide on.


I am very space challenged so I would need to get rid of one of my amps and get a five channel amp to do that (in addition to my 2ch amp). Maybe one day. Plus I would need to see if could place them properly in my room. But I have thought about that. Thanks for continuing to stoke the fire.


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## MIkeDuke

I just want to be %100 clear here. Sometimes my L.D kicks in. If I keep my Integra 80.3 and upgrade to JR 20.x.x and then I rip a movie with an Atmos soundtrack, when I play it back, I would get a TRUHD sound track even though my preamp is not Atmos compatible. Is that correct or do I need an Atmos preamp for that to happen.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I just want to be %100 clear here. Sometimes my L.D kicks in. If I keep my Integra 80.3 and upgrade to JR 20.x.x and then I rip a movie with an Atmos soundtrack, when I play it back, I would get a TRUHD sound track even though my preamp is not Atmos compatible. Is that correct or do I need an Atmos preamp for that to happen.


That is correct. The pre/pro will ignore the Atmos metadata.

There are at least 1191 BD titles which have TrueHD soundtracks. See http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php The decoder for TrueHD is included in the DHC 80.3. (See page 6 and many others in the owner's manual.) You do not need an Atmos decoder to listen to them. If those (mostly older) discs were properly ripped, then you should see the TrueHD indicator light up on the pre/pro's front panel. If they were not properly ripped, they would have lossy 5.1 Dolby Digital.

There are only two or three BDs with Atmos right now: _Step Up All In_, _Transformers Age of Extinction_ and soon the latest version of _Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles_. One can hope that newer Atmos titles will be somewhat more watchable than those!


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## MIkeDuke

That's really cool. So I can set myself up later for Atmos but still have TRUHD through my Integra 80.3. Once I upgrade to MC20 I will re rip Transformers 4 but not now. It sounds fine as is with higher bit Dolby Digital. I told myself I would wait until there are close to 10 titles that I want before I upgrade to MC20. Until then, I will just make due with what I have. I was just wondering if you needed an Atmos capable preamp in order to actually get to the "root" TRUHD" soundtrack that is buried in it. If that makes sense. 
Thanks


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## djbluemax1

MIkeDuke said:


> That's really cool. So I can set myself up later for Atmos but still have TRUHD through my Integra 80.3. Once I upgrade to MC20 I will re rip Transformers 4 but not now. It sounds fine as is with higher bit Dolby Digital. I told myself I would wait until there are close to 10 titles that I want before I upgrade to MC20. Until then, I will just make due with what I have. I was just wondering if you needed an Atmos capable preamp in order to actually get to the "root" TRUHD" soundtrack that is buried in it. If that makes sense.
> Thanks


Think of it as Dolby making the technology backwards compatible (sort of like USB 3.0 drives working just fine on USB 2.0 outlets).

The TrueHD file is the base file and the Atmos metadata is an add-on for AVRs that can read it. If the AVR can't read it, it just plays the base TrueHD file.

If the AVR can read/decode the Atmos metadata but sees that you don't have Height speakers, it just plays the TrueHD track for the speakers you DO have, similar to the way a 7.1 audio track is downmixed to 5.1 if that's all that you have connected.

I don't have Atmos but archived the Atmos track on Transformers 4 just fine. It plays as TrueHD on my setup, but if/when I upgrade to Atmos in the future (waiting to see when we can have 9.1.4), I won't need to re-rip TF4 as the rip has the Atmos track/metadata in it.


Max


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## MIkeDuke

That's the way I was hoping it would be Max but I did not just want to assume it worked that way. It makes me feel much better now. I will need to re rip it(TF4) because I only ripped the Dolby Digital soundtrack since JR18 can't read Atmos to give me the TRUHD soundtrack. But that's OK. Like I said, I will probably wait for a few more Atmos BR's to come out then I will upgrade my Jriver. 
Thanks Max.


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## MIkeDuke

I watched the third Expendables movie last night. It is an Atmos title but I could only rip the Dolby Digital soundtrack. Let me say that in my room, with the high bit rate transfer, it sounds great. The bass is just crazy. Dialog is clear. Surrounds are used well. I really don't see the need to upgrade to the higher level of Jriver just to get a TRUHD soundtrack when I doubt that many people could tell the difference in my room. To me, it sounds about 90% of what at TRUHD soundtrack would be and that is fine for me. It had many smile inducing moments. Just like I felt when I watched TF4. So I am in no rush to upgrade at this point.


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## MIkeDuke

Just another post by me . I am all about trying to maximize what I have. 
All this talk about 4k has me thinking about my video. I try to read the 4k threads but my head starts spin with all of the lingo that is used. It really makes me dizzy. HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2, 20.20 or whatever the hell it is. It's all way above me. In my current state, I will never have 4k video. But, that doesn't mean I don't want the best possible picture from my TV. So reading all of that stuff got me thinking... Even calibrated, is this the best my picture can be? Well...


I am using a Panasonic 42in TV G25 series. I have the Baetis server and the OPPO 83. This is where it gets complicated. In my TV menu, it says it can do 1080p/24, yet that is grayed out and I can't get to it to un-gray it. In my OPPO I have it set for 1080p/24 output to auto and DVD 24p conversion to on. My TV says 3:2 pulldown Auto and 24p Direct in 60Hz. In my Integra I always had it set to 1080p/24 because I would only use the OPPO. With me so far?


Now fast forward to my server. I accept the fact that it's probably not the strongest out there. 

Also, even though my TV said it could do 24p in the specs, I read in other places where it could not do 24p. So I dropped it down to just plain 1080p in my Integra. I did that to make DVD rips look good. That made BR's look great and DVD's better but not good enough. That is why I use VLC for my DVD rips but I don't need to get into that.


So now I reading all about video. I start reading about refresh rates(I have no idea what that really means). I know that my TV has a 60hz refresh rate. I said to myself "HMMM, I have seen that before." I have. The video card section of my server. I don't remember what it was set to but it has 23p HZ, 24p HZ, 59p HZ, 59i HZ, 60iHZ and 60p HZ. So I switched my video card to 60p HZ. 


Well holy Crap. To my eyes, with the way everything is setup. that made a huge difference. I watched Star Trek 3. Not the best movie I know but the picture was so much better. The blacks looked deeper. The colors popped more. Detail on faces and background was cleaner and clearer. When there an exterior shot of the Enterprise it looked insane. I could not get over the clarity and smoothness of how things looked. Then I tried Looper. Again, the detail was flying off the screen. The close up details of objects and people’s faces was not subtle. I was really impressed. 


I don’t know if changing that to 60p HZ did anything or I am just imagining a change. I need to watch a few more movies. 

So I no longer feel the need to really upgrade to 4k or the like. If I can get picture quality like I am getting from my server , I will be very happy. 
I have watched a few more movies. I am still very impressed with how great it looks, even on my small TV. The detail is so good and the colors just pop, even on older movies. I am very happy I played detective and did this changed. I even verified what I did with Craig and he confirmed what I did was OK. That's enough for this post. Next post has to do with audio.


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## MIkeDuke

The audio portion of our program is much simpler. Again, in my server I made a change. I can look at my audio card. It can handle up to 7.1. It shows you a layout of your speakers and the possible placement options the card can accommodate. Since I am running 5.1 I have it set to that. But, there are two 5.1 options. It has been set to a 5.1 option where the picture shows the surrounds slightly behind the listener. That is where I had it. But I went back in again. I noticed it also had a 5.1 option where the speakers in the picture are not in back of you, but directly to the side of you. This is how my surrounds are setup. So I switched it to that setup. I could not believe the change. The sound coming fro the surrounds really improved. Much more enveloping and discrete at the same time. I don't think I can do anything else to make my room look or sound better without major changes.

So the moral of the last two posts are, make sure the equipment you are using are truly optimized. I am know and I am very satisfied with the results. I think I probably could do 7.1 but that would require a lot of changes and I am not able to do that. Just like getting a bigger TV probably could be done but not without a lot of effort. So now I am even happier than I was before.


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## ghostguy79

How do you like the Focals'? They're on my audition list. A few people have made mention to be that for a 90% movie watching speaker, while they are EXTREMELY accurate, that's almost the downside. Meaning when a movie or audio track has flaws, they show it glaringly simply because they are just letting you hear the audio accurately as its been recorded.
What are your thoughts?
I did audition the Electros but found them VERY bright, though that could be the room acoustics of the store I was in.


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## MIkeDuke

Well, I have had some sort of Focal speaker for over 10 years now. I went from the Electra 927be and cc-901 to what I have now which is the Electra 1027be+CC1000be+Chorus 705's for surrounds. I like them very much. In my room(which is treated) and my equipment I don't find them bright at all. The older series was but not the ones I have, again to me. They are really good for music but they are also very nice for movies. I have found that any flaws they may find in a movie were not distracting. In fact, I really can't hear any flaws. I just watched a DVD rip last night. No Country for Old Men. That movie sounded amazing. Not harsh at all. Not fatiguing either. On all my movies, they sound great. Plus I have had other people over who don't have Focal, but have Triad or Legacy speakers and they have NEVER complained about the sound being harsh or letting you hear what's wrong with the soundtrack. 

I have heard the 1028's in a store with music only. They sounded fantastic to me. All the music and songs they were playing sounded great. 

Even on my system, if I play a non-audiophile band like TOOL or Audioslave, the, music sounds really good. When I watch a BR rip or DVD rip of a movie, again, they sound really good. Let me put it this way. If I had 8ft of snow at my house(like some people do now), I would have no problem watching movie after movie. I know I could do that and not get tired of the sound. Now are they for you?, I can't say. I know people like different sounds. For me they are dynamic enough but I can tell you from experience, there are other speakers that are more dynamic. If you ask me if I am happy with what I have I would have to answer hell yes. And again, my friends who come over, say that I have a really outstanding sounding system. And one of these people has heard a lot of different systems. I say give them another chance. It could have been the room that made them sound that way. Don't let the fact that they may be too revealing turn you off to them. I have well over 200 movies and shows at my disposal. Not once did I think that they were letting me hear too much of what was in the movie in a bad way. But that's just me. I don't know what other speakers you are thinking about but to me, the Focal's warrant a chance.


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## MIkeDuke

I hate doing these dinky little updates, but since I got it, I want to keep a record of it. Last week I got a RAID. It's not what %100 recommended drive wise, but I think I will be OK. That just added another 18TB of storage. I have already been putting stuff on and I really like it. Even though I plan on putting stuff that people normally wouldn't put on, I think the space should last me for a nice long time. I can deal with the extra noise. I just can't live with the extra lights. So I am going to get some light dims and take care of that issue. So that's it. I still really like the way it sounds(my system not the RAID ), even when watching Interstellar.


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## Selden Ball

I'm not sure what you mean by "light dims", but electrical masking tape often works well 

_Interstellar_ has gotten both good and bad reviews for its soundtrack. The bass is great, but some people complain that the dialog is hard to understand in a few scenes. (My understanding is that was a directorial decision.)


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## MIkeDuke

These are light dims.
http://www.lightdims.com/store.htm

I figured for the price, I would give them a shot and it would look nicer than tape .

As far as Interstellar goes, I had no problem at all In My System understanding the dialog. But I did have to turn it up louder for someone else who has a hard time hearing movies in my room anyway. As an experiment, I will watch it again, at some point, with Dynamic Volume engaged in my Integra. My understanding is that it lowers the loud effects and raises the spoken words. We shall see. But again, as is, at -17 I was fine with the movie and dialog with the movie.


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## MIkeDuke

Here we go. I am going to try and make this as clear as possible. 

If you are in here, you know I use a server for my main play back. In it, you can go in and set up the surround setup you have with the audio card that it is in the machine. Before I get to my main point, let me just say that it's a good thing I decided to look. My audio card has a few options. It has a 2ch option, a 7.1 option and TWO 5.1 options. They are all diagram based so when you select an option, you see what speakers are active. One 5.1 setup shows the surrounds behind you and the other one shows the surrounds on the side wall(like I have mine.) Lately, I was noticing that I was not getting info from my surrounds. It seemed to happen all of a sudden. So for goofs, I went into the setup section of my audio card. It had the option with the surrounds behind you being active. I switched it to the way I have mine, on the side of me and my surrounds were again active. Now what's really bizarre is that I did not go in and change it. Freaky I know. Anyway, all is good in that respect again. 

Anyway, that got me thinking about Atmos. Atmos needs to be 7.1 at a minimum anyway. I know that the few Atmos disks that are out now are just 7.1 I think. But it has the ability to go much higher than that. With a 7.1 system it would be a 5.1.2 setup. But would my sound card even be able to figure out that's what I want it to do? I know that the newer Jriver versions support Atmos. But my server only has a 7.1 max for channels. So I really don't even know if my server could play back the audio the right way anyway. It might, but I don't know. Also, if they start making Atmos movies with soundtracks above 7.1 I would be out of luck with my server right? I mean, it's not like I could "manage" the 7.1 speakers of the Atmos track in my server and let the preamp take care of the rest if I decided on let's say a 9.1.4 setup at some point in the future. I would need a server that has 14-15 channels in order to do that right? I think on one of the HToTM had one built like that. It was a custom setup. Someone told me that the number of channels on the server's sound card did not matter since the signal itself was an HDMI signal right into my Integra, but I don't know.

This is something I don't have to worry about for a long time probably. But I was just curious if my analysis was correct.
Thanks.


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## Spanglo

Unless your soundcard can't handle TrueHD, then you should be fine. Your htpc/server simply has to bitstream the audio to the Atmos receiver. The receiver will decode the atmos metadata. 

I have a dedicated server, stream to my htpc, use Jriver, no problems with Atmos material. No special soundcard, just the stock one on the mobo.


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## MIkeDuke

Well, I have TRUHD movies on my server so I guess I am OK? I hope I am bit streaming now . I forget how to check. But that would be really cool if I could keep this server and still play Atmos soundtracks in the future, even if I am only getting the Dolby Digital track now. It would mean I will have to get MC20 and re rip them, but that's fine with me. Not a big deal. Again, at this point I only have 2 disks that are Atmos and I can't justify the upgrade now. When I get 10, then I will probably do the upgrade. I think the I have the latest version of MKV that supports Atmos rips. But MC18 does not. The movie just freezes when I tried to play an Atmos soundtrack back.
P.S 
I guess I was just wondering if my server could more than 7.1 since my audio card only seems to go up to 7.1. It shows it in a graphical way and you select what kind of layout you have, and 7.1 is the highest the layout goes to so it just got me wondering. But if you say that it can do it regardless of that, that's pretty cool.
Thanks


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## BrolicBeast

@Spanglo Maybe this was fixed in JRIVER since i last used it (theater has been out of commission), but there was a time when Jriver couldnt bitstream in the hd codecs (dts-hd and dolby tru hd). I had to run PCM in order to get those codecs through my processor. Has this changed?


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## Spanglo

BrolicBeast said:


> @Spanglo Maybe this was fixed in JRIVER since i last used it (theater has been out of commission), but there was a time when Jriver couldnt bitstream in the hd codecs (dts-hd and dolby tru hd). I had to run PCM in order to get those codecs through my processor. Has this changed?


I've used MC18 thru 20 and I don't recall there ever being an issue bitstreaming via HDMI.


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## MIkeDuke

Unless there is a setting that was missed, I should be bit streaming. I just use a HDMI cable and that's it. Again, my question is since my audio card seems to max out at 7.1, even if I bit stream with a HDMI cable, will I be able to get more than 7.1 channels if I ever get MC20 and a new preamp?
EDIT:Spanglo
I know my audio card can play TRUHD and DTS-MA because in my audio card section, I can see them as options listed along with some other, lower end audio options. Plus when I watch a movie with one of those audio options, it appears on my 80.3


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## Selden Ball

Mike,

The capabilities of the audio card are irrelevant. If you only have an HDMI cable connected, then no sound whatsoever goes through the audio card.

The capabilities of the HDMI hardware (which is built into the graphics card) and its associated HD audio driver plus the player software are what determine how many audio channels you can hear. 

Current HDMI chipsets are unable to transport more than 8 (7.1) discrete audio channels if they've been decoded by the disc player or software in your media box. (The HDMI V2 standard allows for up to 32 channels, but that part of the standard hasn't actually been implemented yet.) Fortunately, that limitation is irrelevant when bitstreaming since HDMI is just transporting a single data stream of bits which is destined to be decoded in the A/V receiver or pre/pro.

In other words, when you bitstream the soundtrack from the disc through the HDMI cable to your AV pre/pro, then the decoders built into your pre/pro are the things which limit the audio that you can hear.


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## MIkeDuke

OK. That makes sense . So when I changed the surround configuration in my system, what did I actually do if no sound goes through the card yet I could hear a clear change in my surrounds. Unless I imagined it . In theory then, I should be able to get audio signals greater then 7.1 through my server if that ever comes to pass? Do you think my server will be able to play above that 7.1 setup that is currently being used as long as I upgrade to MC20?


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## MIkeDuke

So I double checked in Jriver, and it says this:
bitstream yes(HDMI). So I guess I am using bitsream. Now, my media player does not have HDMI V2. At least I am 99% sure it doesn't. 

"The capabilities of the HDMI hardware (which is built into the graphics card) and its associated HD audio driver plus the player software are what determine how many audio channels you can hear."
Do you mean the HDMI hardware that are built into the pre amps like the Integra 80.6? Or do you mean the HDMI card that is in my server. 
Sorry if that's a stupid question 

Sleden, you seem to indicate that it doesn't matter. If I understood you correctly, my server will still be able to play audio tracks greater then 7.1 if they ever make them and I am using a newer version of Jriver. For ex. Let's say that a movie comes out with a native 9.1.2 Atmos audio track. Are you saying that if I have enough speakers, and the right playback equipment i.e preamp and MC20 that I could play that back as an Atmos sound track? 
Thanks for your help .


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> OK. That makes sense . So when I changed the surround configuration in my system, what did I actually do if no sound goes through the card yet I could hear a clear change in my surrounds. Unless I imagined it .


That depends on what output device was selected when you made the adjustments. The Windows "Playback Devices" menu lets you select each of the audio output devices that are in the computer (or media server in your case) and specify different settings for each of them. The audio card output and the HDMI output should have separate selection icons. 



> In theory then, I should be able to get audio signals greater then 7.1 through my server if that ever comes to pass?


 Yes, if the server can bitstream the audio.


> Do you think my server will be able to play above that 7.1 setup that is currently being used as long as I upgrade to MC20?


So long as you can bitstream the audio, yes. I don't know enough about JRiver to say if you need to upgrade to MC20. 

Bitstreaming the audio causes the media player software and the computer's hardware and software to ignore the contents of the soundtrack no matter what other settings you've made in the computer. The settings are all bypassed and have no effect on the sound. If settings in the computer do affect the sound, then you aren't actually bitstreaming the audio. You can verify this by looking at what your pre/pro is reporting about the HDMI audio signal that it's getting. If it says it's receiving either Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA then the audio bits are being streamed directly from the A/V file to the pre/pro with no changes. If the pre/pro reports that it's getting LPCM, then the audio is being decoded in the computer and settings in the computer can change how it souds.



MIkeDuke said:


> So I double checked in Jriver, and it says this:
> bitstream yes(HDMI). So I guess I am using bitsream. Now, my media player does not have HDMI V2. At least I am 99% sure it doesn't.


 I suspect you're right. However, you have to be careful when you're talking about HDMI V2. It includes many different optional features. Many people sloppily use the term "HDMI V2" when they're really only talking about its support for UHD video (also called 4K video).



> "The capabilities of the HDMI hardware (which is built into the graphics card) and its associated HD audio driver plus the player software are what determine how many audio channels you can hear."
> Do you mean the HDMI hardware that are built into the pre amps like the Integra 80.6? Or do you mean the HDMI card that is in my server.
> Sorry if that's a stupid question


 Sorry, I meant the entire HDMI signal chain: the appropriate encoding has to be supported by the player device (BD player or Media player) and the receiver or pre/pro for the audio. Similarly, if you want to watch native UHD video, then the player, pre/pro and display all have to support it.

So far as I know, no currently available HDMI hardware supports more than 7.1 discrete channels of audio. Bitstreaming is used to get around this limitation.



> Sleden, you seem to indicate that it doesn't matter. If I understood you correctly, my server will still be able to play audio tracks greater then 7.1 if they ever make them and I am using a newer version of Jriver. For ex. Let's say that a movie comes out with a native 9.1.2 Atmos audio track. Are you saying that if I have enough speakers, and the right playback equipment i.e preamp and MC20 that I could play that back as an Atmos sound track?


Yes, but... 

Atmos and DTS:X don't provide 9.1.2 discrete channels. They provide 7.1 discrete channels plus movable audio objects. The movable audio objects are decoded by the pre/pro so they come from whichever of your speakers happen to be closest to the directions where the sound mixer specified those sounds should come from. If your pre/pro doesn't have such a decoder, then you'll hear the 7.1 channel soundtrack, which includes the sounds provided in the objects. (Supposedly some DTS:X titles will be available by Christmas.)

Auro 3D, in contrast, does use discrete channels for (currently) up to 5.1.5 speaker channels. However, since no players or pre/pros currently support more than 8 discrete channels over HDMI, Auro 3D soundtracks also have to be bitstreamed. Since it's being bitstreamed, the player device (or media player in your case) ignores the audio content and passes it through unchanged so it can be decoded in a compatible pre/pro. Just as with Atmos and DTS:X, if you're using an incompatible pre/pro, you'll hear "downmixed" audio instead. (At the moment, only a few audio-only music titles are available in Auro 3D format. My understanding is that one movie title has been published, but they botched the audio encoding.)

I hope these descriptions help a little. I've let out a lot of the technical details.


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## MIkeDuke

OK.
Lot's to go over. Let's start with this:
"You can verify this by looking at what your pre/pro is reporting about the HDMI audio signal that it's getting. If it says it's receiving either Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA then the audio bits are being streamed directly from the A/V file to the pre/pro with no changes. If the pre/pro reports that it's getting LPCM, then the audio is being decoded in the computer and settings in the computer can change how it souds."

When I watch a movie that is a BR rip, it does say TrueHD or DTS-HD MA. So I guess I am bit streaming .

"Sorry, I meant the entire HDMI signal chain: the appropriate encoding has to be supported by the player device (BD player or Media player) and the receiver or pre/pro for the audio. Similarly, if you want to watch native UHD video, then the player, pre/pro and display all have to support it.

So far as I know, no currently available HDMI hardware supports more than 7.1 discrete channels of audio. Bitstreaming is used to get around this limitation."
First I have no interest in 4k video at this time. In my system, you seem to indicate that I am cool in that regard if I get an Atmos preamp and the right software. Am I correct in thinking that? This is only for audio.

So Atmos and DTS:X have a 7.1 "bed" and then they figure out the rest on the fly? The rest being objects?(I forgot about that). 
If someone built a mega theater with a 9.1 system plus 4 Atmos speakers, are you saying that Atmos would decode the 7 main speakers as channels and then the rest as objects? Or would the entire system be based on objects. 
*So, it sounds like you are saying that if I get an Atmos preamp, and the right software, that my current server, which is HDMI 1.4 based, would be able to play an Atmos soundtrack that was at a minimum of 7.1 but may go up from there. Am I right?*
P.S Thanks for not getting too technical . I would hate to read that post.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> When I watch a movie that is a BR rip, it does say TrueHD or DTS-HD MA. So I guess I am bit streaming .


Correct.


> First I have no interest in 4k video at this time. In my system, you seem to indicate that I am cool in that regard if I get an Atmos preamp and the right software. Am I correct in thinking that? This is only for audio.


Correct.


> So Atmos and DTS:X have a 7.1 "bed" and then they figure out the rest on the fly? The rest being objects?(I forgot about that).


Correct.


> If someone built a mega theater with a 9.1 system plus 4 Atmos speakers, are you saying that Atmos would decode the 7 main speakers as channels and then the rest as objects? Or would the entire system be based on objects.


 7.1 bed channels +/- objects. +/- is my cutesie way of saying that the audio of the objects is included in the traditional 7.1 ear-level base channels. The Atmos audio decoder subtracts the object audio from those 7.1 channels and directs those objects to other speakers. The DTS:X decoder will do the same kind of thing. They didn't switch to a pure-object delivery system because they wanted the soundtracks to be compatible with non-Atmos equipment.


> *So, it sounds like you are saying that if I get an Atmos preamp, and the right software, that my current server, which is HDMI 1.4 based, would be able to play an Atmos soundtrack that was at a minimum of 7.1 but may go up from there. Am I right?*


You are correct. I have an HDMI V1.4 BD player (Sony S590) feeding my Atmos receiver (Marantz SR7009) and it works fine.


> P.S Thanks for not getting too technical . I would hate to read that post.


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## MIkeDuke

You just set my mind at ease for a long time Selden. Knowing that my server will be able to handle the newer audio formats is a load off my mind. Also, I now feel better buying Atmos disks and only using the Dolby Digital core audio. Someone on the Data-Bass forum made me feel better about it. TBH, the Dolby Digital track ripped from an Atmos disk sounds really good. Almost as good as a plain old TRU-HD track. So I am no longer in a major rush to go out and upgrade to a newer version of Jriver. Especially since I don't see myself moving beyond 5.1 for a while.
Thanks again. 
P.S I can't promise that I won't have more questions  .


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## Selden Ball

Mike,

You're very welcome.

My understanding is that the Dolby Digital versions of the primary soundtracks on Blu-ray discs can (but might not) use a higher bitrate than can be used on DVDs, so (in principle at least) they can sound very good. I have a couple of early DVDs which were advertised as being very high quality encodings, demos for how good DD could be. They do sound quite good. I was rather surprised when I played them recently on my Sony BD player and discovered that they actually were encoded using one of the slowest of the DD bitrates.

Enjoy!


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## MIkeDuke

In Jriver while the movie is playing, you can see what the bit rate is. On these DD Atmos tracks, they are only barely below what a TRUHD track is. Sometimes they may dip lower but on average not much. A DVD bit rate is much lower then even what the lowest the Atmos DD track goes. So thanks again for making me not obsess over this and allow me to get Atmos disks with little fear that I am missing a ton of audio quality. At least in my system. Other people may think I am crazy and say that DD track and TRUHD tracks on these Atmos disks are not worlds apart. That's fine. I just know how it sounds in MY system.


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## MIkeDuke

Last night I had some time on my hands so I decided to have double feature. I watched Lucy and then I watched Dracula Untold. They are both about 90 minutes. I wanted to see if I could tell the difference between the two movies. Over on Databass.com they measured both.
This is Lucy
Level - 2 Stars (106.45dB composite)
Extension - 5 Stars (7Hz)
Dynamics - 3 Stars (24.7dB)
Execution - 4 Stars (by poll)
and this is Dracula
Level - 3 Stars (109.19dB composite)
Extension - 1 Star (34.5Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (30.01dB)
Execution - 2 Stars (by poll)

It was an interesting experiment. Even though the Level and dynamics were higher with Dracula, I liked the overall presentation of Lucy better. I could tell the difference. Lucy did seem a bit lower in the dynamics range, but for me, since I have a SubMersive and a Crowson, it was really fun and it got loud enough for me. I could really tell that this movie went low. Now with Dracula, it was a bit louder but the lack of bass was really evident after watching Lucy, regardless of the dynamics and Level. In Dracula, it was like the bass was almost there, and then someone pulled the rug out from it. It was really too bad because if it went lower, it could have been an epic soundtrack. Everything else was great in D.U. The fronts and surrounds were really well utilized. 

I just thought it would be an interesting experiment that I could do back to back films that measured so differently to see if I could tell the difference. And yes, having really low bass, and the ability to reproduce it is an important fact. If it were me, I would take a Lucy style soundtrack, over the Dracula sound track any day of the week. Now it would be great if they could all be 5 star sound tracks with no clipping, but as I said, I would rather have a Lucy soundtrack if that was my only choice.


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## MIkeDuke

I just wanted to say that I am out for a while. There is nothing more major I can do for my system and looking at the bigger systems just makes me sad that I can't have one. So I am probably done looking in here unless I someone sends me a message or I do something radical. I want to thank everybody for their help and I hope I was able to help a few people .
By... For know


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## MIkeDuke

Well,
I am back . Did anybody miss me. Things have evolved and I believe I am at the point where I can make a significant change. Your eyes are always bigger then the space you really have. But with care full searching, I am able to make what should be a nice upgrade. People can probably guess what it is. I just need to do more research. But things will look different the not too distant future. Updates to follow, if anybody is in here .


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## Selden Ball

When you post to a thread, that normally puts it into your subscription list. The "User CP" option in the Forum's header shows all of your subscribed threads which have been updated since the last time you looked at them. In other words, everybody who's ever posted in this thread is aware that you're "back". Unless they've explicitly unsubscribed, anyhow.


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## MIkeDuke

Got you. It was sort of a smart ass thing I did I know. Didn't mean to be like that but that's how it ended up. Sorry. I didn't think I would posting so soon though that's all. I figured a way to get a 55" TV in my room so that's why I said I was back. I wasn't aware that people subscribed to my thread that's all.


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## MIkeDuke

So I have doing my research and I have to say, I am a little disappointed . While most of what I have seen seems great, upon further reading, the warts come out. First, I am limited to a 55in TV. So I have looked at just about all the models in my price range. Let me also say that Craig has been indispensable as I do this . What I have learned is this. I know no TV is perfect. I choose to look at the negative reviews of the models instead of the positive ones. Most of the brands that are in my $1500 range all seem to have major issues. If you look at Sony, sure there are a lot of great reviews but some of the bad ones site motion blur, lip sync issues and even all out failure. Most of the Samsung TV's site motion blur and some failure. LG, most of the reviews site motion blur but not much failure. All of these TV's have 120hz refresh rates. 

The Vizio 55in has really had no failure reports that I have read but people also say it has motion blur. I think its "real" refresh rate is 60hz. My current plasma has a refresh rate of 600hz. What to do. To be fair, there are many positive reviews of all these TV's as well. And even some that say "*Samsung* is crap, I went to LG, Sony etc... and it is much better". Then you have people that say "*Sony* is crap, I went to Samsung or LG, etc... And then you have the people who love their Vizo TV's. Then you have Panasonic who has non plasma TV's, that seem to be rated high but are no longer sold in stores. Of course there not, because why would they want to make it easy for me . 

So that's my research and dilemma so far. I know no TV has a perfect record, and I did have a failure on my Panasonic which required a board replacement, but again, to be honest none of them really wow me with the results I have seen. You can't judge by going to BB because most of the time, they show slides with no motion so no chance to really see them in action. BB pushes Sony hard. Now some did have "real" content playing from a 4k source and they looked great. I could not see any motion blur, even on TV's where people have complained about it. It could be that the motion blur thing is blown out of proportion. Or, maybe, not everyone is as sensitive to motion blur as other people and maybe I am one of those people. I just don't know. I think what I am going to do(this was Craig's idea) is to wait until CEDIA to see if the manufactures come out with new models. I may be able to handle a 60hz TV. I don't know. My server's video card is set at 60hz so I don't know if that would make it fine for movies but crappy for regular TV. Who knows. But I do think I am going to wait. But what an not willing to do is take a chance on a TV that has a lot of physical failures. There is one Samsung, that is in my price range, that is highly rated with no physical failures, but it only has 7 reviews. So I think I will wait. I just needed to put my disappointment on my thread so I would have a record of it.


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## Franin

Hey Mike how you doing mate? Its been awhile. Just reading your last post make sure the TV you do go of has HDCP 2.2 ( Im sure know but just in case ) especially if it s 4K.


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## MIkeDuke

Hey Frank.
Thanks for stopping in . I think most of the TV's I am looking at have those specs. I am still in the research phase. Trying to figure out what is real and what is BS when it comes to specs. Also, if these reliability issues I am reading about are real or just a few people who are unhappy. It's hard to figure out what is real and what is not.

For instance. I don't even know if I am prone to motion blur so would I be OK with a 60hz TV? Are most TV's 60hz and the manufactures just B.S their ways to higher rates? For sports compared to movie watching, will I notice a difference between 60hz and 120hz? And are there TV's that really are native 120hz? You see my situation? I did not realize it would be this much work to find a TV .


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## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> Hey Frank.
> Thanks for stopping in . I think most of the TV's I am looking at have those specs. I am still in the research phase. Trying to figure out what is real and what is BS when it comes to specs. Also, if these reliability issues I am reading about are real or just a few people who are unhappy. It's hard to figure out what is real and what is not.
> 
> For instance. I don't even know if I am prone to motion blur so would I be OK with a 60hz TV? Are most TV's 60hz and the manufactures just B.S their ways to higher rates? For sports compared to movie watching, will I notice a difference between 60hz and 120hz? And are there TV's that really are native 120hz? You see my situation? I did not realize it would be this much work to find a TV .



Buying a TV is a tough one especially with all the BS that goes with it. Are you also going to look into a TV that's able to be ISF calibrated? Not a big deal for many but sometimes it's good to have depending on how high you place the value of pq. 
You need to go and demo some and make sure you take a movie that has some dark scenes in it. It will give you a good idea how well a TV can preform. I have in my dining area a 50" Samsung TV and the dark scenes are absolutely horrible. In my sitting area I have a 68" 3D TV from Samsung and that one their isn't too bad ( regarding dark scenes ). Bit of food for thought. 


Frank


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## MIkeDuke

Franin said:


> Buying a TV is a tough one especially with all the BS that goes with it. Are you also going to look into a TV that's able to be ISF calibrated? Not a big deal for many but sometimes it's good to have depending on how high you place the value of pq.
> You need to go and demo some and make sure you take a movie that has some dark scenes in it. It will give you a good idea how well a TV can preform. I have in my dining area a 50" Samsung TV and the dark scenes are absolutely horrible. In my sitting area I have a 68" 3D TV from Samsung and that one their isn't too bad ( regarding dark scenes ). Bit of food for thought.
> 
> 
> Frank


Craig has a friend who calibrated his projector and he said he will calibrate my TV for me. My Plasma was calibrated by a professional as well. I don't know if it will be ISF labeled or whatever, but it will be calibrated. I just want to make sure what I buy is a reliable TV. I know I had a board on this (Panasonic)TV, but I would rather not have major issues with my new TV. I doubt Best Buy would let me bring my own movie to test though. We shall see.


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## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> Craig has a friend who calibrated his projector and he said he will calibrate my TV for me. My Plasma was calibrated by a professional as well. I don't know if it will be ISF labeled or whatever, but it will be calibrated. I just want to make sure what I buy is a reliable TV. I know I had a board on this (Panasonic)TV, but I would rather not have major issues with my new TV. I doubt Best Buy would let me bring my own movie to test though. We shall see.



Curious to see what you get Mike. I'm sure it will be a good one. 
Btw how is Craig going ? Don't see him much on AVS. 


Frank


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## MIkeDuke

Franin said:


> Curious to see what you get Mike. I'm sure it will be a good one.
> Btw how is Craig going ? Don't see him much on AVS.
> 
> 
> Frank


To be honest, I really don't know what direction I am going to go in. EVERY tv has people who rave about it and then other people say it's the worst TV ever. I mean, every single brand. So I don't know what to do. Like I said, I will wait for CEDIA and maybe CES. I just don't want to get burned.

Craig is doing fine. It's just that he is really really swamped at work so it's hard for him to have any down time for AVS. But he has been helping me and educating me about video stuff. 

I just want to pick a good reliable TV. That's all. I want one, now that I know that I can get one, but I want to be careful and pick something that is really good in my budget. Don't worry Frank, I will keep on posting here how everything is going. 
P.S I hope your system is still kicking butt .


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## MIkeDuke

One thing I am not sure if I mentioned or not is that I have upgraded to Jriver MC20. I did this because they had a sale and there were a few movies coming out with Atmos, and some that are out now that I was curious about. I bought John Wick. I have read that it was a pretty good movie and that it sounded good as well. So, I did the rip with my latest version of MakeMKV. After figuring out which of the 50 files was the right one, I did the rip. I noticed in the audio section of MKV it said Atmos and TRUHD. After the rip I just played back a quick section to make sure it worked. Since I don't have an Atmos setup, it defaulted to TRUHD, which is the right thing to do . Before, I was just getting a high rez version of Dolby Digital. But now, I can buy any Atmos disk I want and rip that track. It's pretty neat. I have yet to watch it yet though. I plan on re ripping TF4 as well. It's pretty cool now to be able to start to have an Atmos library. If I ever upgrade to a full 4k Atmos setup(with a server) at least I will have my audio all ready to go. 
P.S Still learning from Craig and on my own about video.


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## Franin

I had to google what a Jriver MC20 was. How do you find the media centre ? I'm still contemplating one but not sure which way to go I have questions, how much TB I need? will the pq get affected once ripped? I used to have one many many years ago ( it was like a computer hooked to my projector playing DVDs it was pathetic ). These days they look amazing and was told controlled by remote.
You said you had to figure which of the 50 files was the right one? Is their an easier way to rip and faster? 
I calibrate my own projector using calman enthusiast. I used to have the lumagen 2021 in the chain but I ended up selling it and now just calibrate my JVC.


Frank


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## MIkeDuke

Franin said:


> I had to google what a Jriver MC20 was. How do you find the media centre ? I'm still contemplating one but not sure which way to go I have questions, how much TB I need? will the pq get affected once ripped? I used to have one many many years ago ( it was like a computer hooked to my projector playing DVDs it was pathetic ). These days they look amazing and was told controlled by remote.
> You said you had to figure which of the 50 files was the right one? Is their an easier way to rip and faster?
> I calibrate my own projector using calman enthusiast. I used to have the lumagen 2021 in the chain but I ended up selling it and now just calibrate my JVC.
> 
> 
> Frank


I guess I should have been clearer. Yes it's Jriver Media Center 20. 
Here is the link for Jriver
http://www.jriver.com/
I also use a program called MakeMKV to rip the movie.
http://www.makemkv.com/
It works great. The picture quality for BR movies is equal to a real BR disk. What you do is, put the disk in your machine. Then you open MakeMKV. MKV opens the disk so you can see what's on it. If you are lucky, they only have one major file that is the movie. It will have a number like this 00756.mpls. Then you hit the plus sign on it. That will open all the options. You typically choose the highest audio your system can handle. Then there is a section for subtitles. All you need to do is keep the "forced" option checked and un-check the other subtitle option. If there is more than one of those for English, I normally keep all "forced" checked" Then you will see other check boxes and files. You can un-check all of them. They are typically the extras that I don't keep. Then you just hit the button and 1 hour later, you have a perfect copy. I know it sounds like a lot but once you do it a few times, it's second nature. I think the program Jriver also allows you to rip a movie in it's menu system but I never tried that.

As far as size of the file. For a BR the biggest file I ever had was in the 30mb range and the smallest was in the mid teens. So on one TB drive, you can still fit a good number of movies. If they put more than one movie file on the disk, it can be tricky. I either ask someone here or do a quick web search and I can find out which is the right one. But it is all worth it. If your system is able to play it back, MC20 can even do Atmos now. 

As far as a media center goes, I really can't help you there. The one I bought isn't even made any more and now the guy only sells really expensive ones. For you, it would be a ton I am sure. If your are able, a DIY method would probably be the best route for you. Or check these guys out
http://www.steigerdynamics.com/Default
They have pre-built ones or you can make it yourself through their options. It might be worth an email. 

But, if you mean the program itself, it is great. You can set it up so that movies and TV shows are in different areas in the program. It gives you nice wall paper for the background of what you are looking at. It gives a great description of whatever movie or TV show you are looking at. If you put music on your server, you can get band related pictures when you listen to a particular album. All in all I really like Jriver. 

I would never go back though. If ever I needed a more powerful server, I would see what is out there, but for now, this one is just fine. 

I hoped that helped a little . It really is cool to have over 300 movies and a number of TV shows right at my finger tips. DVD playback is a bit different. But if all you care about is BR, then what I described is all you need.

I know I keep adding to this, sorry, but if you choose to get Jriver, I can do my best in helping you along. The main thing is naming TV shows. There is a certain way you should do it. I can try and help you out as much as I can if you choose to go the server way with Jriver
P.S MKV has a 30 day trial, so if you have a BR drive in a computer, I recommend you just do a trial down load and check it out. Like I said, it's much easier than it seems.


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## Franin

Thanks for that Mike. I'll have to check around what they have to for offer in my country at the moment. Due to our dollar being weak importing anything from the States to Australia is a big no no.


Frank


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## MIkeDuke

Franin said:


> Thanks for that Mike. I'll have to check around what they have to for offer in my country at the moment. Due to our dollar being weak importing anything from the States to Australia is a big no no.
> 
> 
> Frank


No problem. Maybe there is someone where you are who is handy and can build one for you. There is someone on this forum called desertdome. He has helped me a lot plus he built a HT computer for a HT of the month right here. I would maybe contact him and see if he can guide you at all. You can tell him that I recommended that you contact him. It may be worth just a PM. I mean, it can't hurt.


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## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> No problem. Maybe there is someone where you are who is handy and can build one for you. There is someone on this forum called desertdome. He has helped me a lot plus he built a HT computer for a HT of the month right here. I would maybe contact him and see if he can guide you at all. You can tell him that I recommended that you contact him. It may be worth just a PM. I mean, it can't hurt.



Thanks for that Mike. I had a look around on the web in Australia today so I need to have a look what they have. The dollar is what's stopping me buy in the U.S. 


Frank


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## MIkeDuke

Well, I hope you can find something affordable. I was very hesitant at first, but now I am so glad I went the server route. My friend actually has one. Not as fancy as mine. I think it's just a machine running lynx with no real fancy front end but he is the guy that got me thinking about it. It can be done and you don't have to spend the money I did. For me, what I bought was the best option since I could not do it myself and I liked that it was already built and self contained.


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## MIkeDuke

I know I am one of the few regulars in here, and I would normally email Craig about this but I don't want to overload his in box with my questions and such.


But... I have to get this off my chest. What the hell is up with video "standards" these days. I mean, I thought 4k was just 4k. But noooooooooooooooooo. It has all these things along with with it. There is HDMI 2.0(OK I get that one). The here is HDCP 2.2(copy right stuff I think?). Then we have stuff like REC 2020(What?) [email protected] and [email protected] (Huh?). Then we have 8 bit video vs 12 bit vide0(I think). Then we have this new Dolby Vision thing(Stop it already). Deep Color Gamut(Enough is enough)


I am sure I am missing some stuff as well. I mean come on. How am I supposed to grasp all of that stuff. I mean it seems like these standards are just dribbling out a little at a time. It's getting too much. The TV I am looking to buy will probably not have all of those things but I want it to have enough of them so I am set for a few years. 


I just needed to vent a little. Now I know why I focused on audio more than video .
AHHHH I feel better now.


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## MIkeDuke

Yep, it's me again. I know 3 posts in a row. Oh well, what can you do . I just wanted to give an update on something else. I anyone has followed this thread, they know that I was having judder issues with my server and MC18. So, I got the VLC player and that made regular DVD rips look great as opposed to how bad they looked with MC18. Well, I have upgraded to MC20 recently. Of course BR's look great but I decided to test a DVD rip. You know what, it looked fantastic. The first movie I watched was From Hell. It looked really good. The blacks were deep. The colors popped and no judder in the picture. It looked great. Then last night I watched another DVD rip. Master and Commander. Again, it looked great. The motion was fine and the colors popped. So now I can use Jriver for everything. It just a shame my server isn't HDMI 2.0 so I could watch 4k content in it. I don't think it's possible to watch 4k on a system that only had HDMI 1.4 for the server even if my preamp and TV are 4k compatible. Oh well, I can be happy with what I have. I am just glad that Jriver MC20 fixed that issue.


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## Selden Ball

Yup WRT the 4K video "standard". I suspect a lot of people are going to be very annoyed when when they discover their brand new 4K TV won't be able to show all of the eye candy supported by the "final" standard. Making many of the features optional doesn't help. In other words, holding off until Fall of 2016 for your 4K upgrade might be appropriate if you want to have more of the bells and whistles. By that time the new DTS:X audio decoder should be available, too. (Its due date keeps slipping.)


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## MIkeDuke

Here is the thing though. In order for me to do 4k the "right way" I would need a 4k TV, a source for 4k(my server) and a preamp that does 4k, correct? Right now I have none of that stuff. I have an Integra 80.3(HDMI 1.4 with 4k pass through), whatever that is. My server is only 1.4 HDMI also. So even if I get a new TV and down the line, and get a new preamp that can do 4k, I still won't be able to watch 4k movies from my server. So, does it really matter that I won't get all the visual benefits now? I will still get some right? 

Plus, I don't see myself going beyond 5.1 easily so Atmos or DTS:X really don't affect me at this point.
P.S I am not saying I can't wait. I am waiting for CEDIA and possibly CES to see if anything new 
is discussed. But I am itching now that I know I can get a new TV. But I hear what you are saying.
But, if you wait for the latest, you always be waiting. I am willing to make the move now knowing
that I may not get _EVERYTHING_ 4k has to offer. But, I have had my 42in for at least 4 years. 
Probably longer. That's a longer time then most people I am sure. It's time to make the move.


----------



## Selden Ball

If you believe that it's time (due to adequate finances and acceptable product value) to improve your entertainment experience, then do it. As you write, improvements are happening continuously. 

I'd been thinking about upgrading to an 11-speaker system for a couple of years, so the availability of Atmos-capable equipment was enough to push me over that edge last fall. My current movie video experience is more than adequate (1080p DLP projector), so I'm quite willing to wait for the 4K video situation to stabilize before I upgrade the video part of my system. Considering all the equipment that'll have to be replaced (computer, disc player, AVR, cables, TV, projector), the total cost is somewhat of a deterrent for me.

Have fun! That's the real reason for doing any of this.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Any move I would try to make to have Atmos, in reality would be a real pain. So, I figure why not try to make my 5.1 system(audio and video) the best it can be right now. At this moment, with my Focal speakers, Bryston amps, Integra 80.3 and SubMersive sub, I am probably near the top of my audio spectrum right now. 

I really don't feel like getting a new preamp AND a new TV AND try and figure out my computer needs just to get probably 2 to 4 more speakers in my room. I have treatments right over my head so I can't put Atmos speakers there. I can put them in the front of the room but they would be pretty far from my MLP and I would probably have to angle them. Not to mention I would need to change my amp configuration to get the extra channels. 

I just have to live within my limits right now. TBH, the 5.1 system does sound really good. I do wonder about sides or front heights. That I might be able to at some point but not right now. Believe me, I wish I was in a position where I could have an 11 channel system or something like Craig has. But that is just not going to happen. Getting a bigger TV will help me out a little so I feel a little better. *I am tired of just having a 42in TV * 

And I am having fun .


----------



## MIkeDuke

Still working and thinking about the video, but if anybody is in here and has an answer to this, it would be great. Does using Dynamic Volume Control  put extra stress on your center channel enough for it to cause damage?


----------



## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> Still working and thinking about the video, but if anybody is in here and has an answer to this, it would be great. Does using Dynamic Volume Control  put extra stress on your center channel enough for it to cause damage?



I don't know because on the soft passages it's designed to raise the volume to match ? So in hindsight it can depending on how much is raised. Too be honest I've never used it mike ive always read about it.


Frank


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## MIkeDuke

I was asking for two reasons. One, maybe making the dialog Interstellar better. Also, instead of turning up the entire level to help someone hear the dialog which my make the entire movie too loud, I would not have to do turn the MV up so much and that person could hear the dialog better


----------



## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> I was asking for two reasons. One, maybe making the dialog Interstellar better. Also, instead of turning up the entire level to help someone hear the dialog which my make the entire movie too loud, I would not have to do turn the MV up so much and that person could hear the dialog better


Unfortunately that film is designed that way.


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Still working and thinking about the video, but if anybody is in here and has an answer to this, it would be great. Does using Dynamic Volume Control  put extra stress on your center channel enough for it to cause damage?


Dynamic Volume should pose no threat to your CC. Take a look at this graph:









http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/dynamic-volume

Also, on this page: http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/dynamic-volume/faq it is explained in more detail.

DV actually reduces the loudest content while only slightly raising the lowest or softest content. 

Having said that, I don't prefer to have DV engaged. It acts like DRC too much and I prefer to have the entire dynamic range available. However, there may be some instances, such as Interstellar, where DV could be helpful. Try it and see. You can always shut it off if you don't like it. But it shouldn't present any threat to your CC.

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Actually, I did try it with Interstellar and I liked the results. But then I got worried that it would be bad for the center. As I said, some one who watches movies with me is a little hard of hearing. I am always asked to turn it up. I would like to be able to do that, while not disturbing anybody else. I am paranoid even now that my center is damaged because sometimes it sounds muffled. It's probably just me being paranoid since I damaged it before .
P.S Craig, your speakers are so sensitive and you have the ability to really crank it, I can imagine that for you, it would not be a thing that is needed. But for me, in my small room, with my center, I think it may help in some instances.


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## Selden Ball

Mike,

You might consider increasing the relative volume of just the center channel. That usually improves the audibility of a movie's dialog.

I don't recall which Integra pre/pro you have, but this feature is described on page 70 of the DHC 80.3's manual.


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Mike,
> 
> You might consider increasing the relative volume of just the center channel. That usually improves the audibility of a movie's dialog.
> 
> I don't recall which Integra pre/pro you have, but this feature is described on page 70 of the DHC 80.3's manual.


I have the 80.3. I will look at the manual. I was thinking about that as well but I thought I would be messing with the "integrity" of the setup if I did that.


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## MIkeDuke

So I upped the Center a bit and that did help. I need to watch a few more movies though. I just hope I have not broken a HT cardinal rule by doing that .


----------



## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> So I upped the Center a bit and that did help. I need to watch a few more movies though. I just hope I have not broken a HT cardinal rule by doing that .



As long as your happy Mike that's all that counts. 


Frank


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## MIkeDuke

Franin said:


> As long as your happy Mike that's all that counts.
> 
> Frank


I think that will do it. I still need to watch a few more shows/movies, but I think that will work, As far as the TV's, I am impressed with Samsung and Sony. It will probably be one of those two. I know it's only 55" but to be honest, even I have to admit that the 60+ TV's look very big. Considering I only have a 42" now, I do think that it will seem much bigger in my room. It's probably because I am so used to a 42in. That's probably why they look so big to me. Plus, I am only about 9.5' from the TV. I think that it will make it a bit more immersive for me. It won't be like the 150" screens or what you and Craig have but I think I can be happy with it. 


Now it's a matter of which one. Craig said that the Samsung that is out now that I am looking at has a lot of the 4k goodness that will keep it relevant for a while. But I will still probably wait until CEDIA. It's only one more month. Thanks for checking in Frank . I hope your system is still keeping you happy. Any changes? Do you still have link on AVS?


----------



## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> I think that will do it. I still need to watch a few more shows/movies, but I think that will work, As far as the TV's, I am impressed with Samsung and Sony. It will probably be one of those two. I know it's only 55" but to be honest, even I have to admit that the 60+ TV's look very big. Considering I only have a 42" now, I do think that it will seem much bigger in my room. It's probably because I am so used to a 42in. That's probably why they look so big to me. Plus, I am only about 9.5' from the TV. I think that it will make it a bit more immersive for me. It won't be like the 150" screens or what you and Craig have but I think I can be happy with it.
> 
> 
> Now it's a matter of which one. Craig said that the Samsung that is out now that I am looking at has a lot of the 4k goodness that will keep it relevant for a while. But I will still probably wait until CEDIA. It's only one more month. Thanks for checking in Frank . I hope your system is still keeping you happy. Any changes? Do you still have link on AVS?


Hi Mike sorry for the late reply. Maybe your right its best if you wait until CEDIA to decide which panel will serve you best. My system is doing great, I've upgraded to Atmos (Love it ). I was negotiating with an installer to come an change a few thing but they wanted way too much money and with my Daughters School fees next year ( Going to High school ) I have to stop doing anymore changes( wife put foot down ). I bought some new chairs and sold my Focals and I don't listen to 2 channel music anymore. Kids have a sony blue tooth stereo and play music throughout the house and Im kinda over it lol. I bought the B&W CT 7.3 speakers for fronts and 7.5 for sides and for HT there amazing. Its different coming from floor standers to this type of speakers. If these speakers are not correctly placed they will sound **** so lucky for me the were placed at ear level when I sit down ( perfect ) just under the screen. So if you had to go demo them and there not calibrated and placed properly I believe they won't sound crash hot. But trust me when I say once calibrated and placed right they preform extremely well and very well detailed. Especially after a good run in. For my room they are more than enough, ( Due to my room size 3.8m W x and 5.03M L ).There really designed just for theatre, turn the lights off the screen comes alive I love it. I believe if I had to play 2 channel music on them it won't sound as good as proper floor standing speakers. The focals were a gem in that department and they were great for HT as well. I also sold my Denon gear I ended up with Marantz Av8802A and 2 x Rotel RMB 1585 & 1 x RB 1552 MK II Power amps. I got sick of having 10 channels all in one box ( power amp) because if one channel goes your whole system is disabled but not only that the weight. ugh! Fathoms are still there 3 of them had the resistor caps blown but I was fortunate enough to have a technician here who changed the caps to much better suit our power over here. One more left to go and they weigh too much I'm over it. I don't have a link as I haven't updated my photos for a long time. Have to get around to it one time.


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## MIkeDuke

Yea, CEDIA would be my best bet, but Frank...
I did a quick search on your new speakers. THEY LOOK AWESOME!!!!! Plus a quick review of them confirms their awesomeness. I am sure that in your room, with your new gear, it sounds insane. Good stuff on the Marantz and going atmos. Now I can be even more jealous of you . Having real theater speakers is pretty cool. I read a review where they reviewed them with TDKR and the review said it sounded fantastic. Congrats on the new speakers and going atmos. What is your speaker layout. For instance 7.1.2 or 7.1.4 or 9.1.4... etc. When you are watching your atmos goodness, don't forget about me in my 5.1 system. 

So hopefully my vision will be more clear after CEDIA. If the TV's are better than what are out now, I think at least my picture will be great, even though it's just 55in. Man I wish I had a bigger room. But what cab you do. a 5.1 system with a 55in TV is probably it for me.


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## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> Yea, CEDIA would be my best bet, but Frank...
> I did a quick search on your new speakers. THEY LOOK AWESOME!!!!! Plus a quick review of them confirms their awesomeness. I am sure that in your room, with your new gear, it sounds insane. Good stuff on the Marantz and going atmos. Now I can be even more jealous of you . Having real theater speakers is pretty cool. I read a review where they reviewed them with TDKR and the review said it sounded fantastic. Congrats on the new speakers and going atmos. What is your speaker layout. For instance 7.1.2 or 7.1.4 or 9.1.4... etc. When you are watching your atmos goodness, don't forget about me in my 5.1 system.
> 
> So hopefully my vision will be more clear after CEDIA. If the TV's are better than what are out now, I think at least my picture will be great, even though it's just 55in. Man I wish I had a bigger room. But what cab you do. a 5.1 system with a 55in TV is probably it for me.



Mike just because your room is small I bet it sounds just like all the high end systems out there. You don't need rows of seats to have the ultimate theatre because there main sweet spot will sound like what your listening too right now in your sweet spot. Remember the bigger the room the more powerful speakers, more subs ( even with more power ) etc. Yes you can have that in a small room as well but that's choice ( it's not a bad choice either up to each individual). 
5.1 will always be the standard and still be very enjoyable. Yes they are coming out with more speakers layout but you can still enjoy it as much with 5.1. 
I will be honest if I went with a larger room and rows of seats I will need speakers and subs that will require more power than I have now. But because my dedicated theatre room is of that particular size well and only 3 Seats in the room ( mine being the sweet spot  ) what I have is plenty enough with plenty of headroom. Last thing I need is too crank it and go deaf lol.
At the moment I'm running 7.1.4 and that's all my room can cater for. I literally cannot do wides or and any more speaker that will make a difference.

Mate you have a good system, trust me and I bet it sounds just as good as the rest of ours and a 55" will be perfect 


Frank


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks Frank. Have you tried any Atmos movies yet? Is Mad Max: Fury Road out yet where you are. Or Transformers 4(even though it's not the best). I would be curious to hear what you thought. I don't think I could do atmos in my room because I have ceiling treatments probably where they would go. Otherwise, they may be be too far out in the room. Putting heights or wide speakers would be an issue also because of placement problems. I think all I would want is a 7.1 system in my room. If that were even possible. Maybe atmos but again, I don't think I could do it correctly. Plus, any more speaker change would entail an amp change and that may not happen either. At least I can get TRUHD now from the Atmos disks so that's a plus. I also really like my server so I happy with that as well. 7.1.4 seems to be a sweet spot. I am sure with your picture that sound just blends right in.


----------



## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> Thanks Frank. Have you tried any Atmos movies yet? Is Mad Max: Fury Road out yet where you are. Or Transformers 4(even though it's not the best). I would be curious to hear what you thought. I don't think I could do atmos in my room because I have ceiling treatments probably where they would go. Otherwise, they may be be too far out in the room. Putting heights or wide speakers would be an issue also because of placement problems. I think all I would want is a 7.1 system in my room. If that were even possible. Maybe atmos but again, I don't think I could do it correctly. Plus, any more speaker change would entail an amp change and that may not happen either. At least I can get TRUHD now from the Atmos disks so that's a plus. I also really like my server so I happy with that as well. 7.1.4 seems to be a sweet spot. I am sure with your picture that sound just blends right in.



Just to give you a heads up not everyone is doing Atmos so your still enjoying the audio goodness. 
I've just finished watching San Andreas on Atmos Blu Ray fantastic. Loved it. I've got most releases on Atmos bar Step Up and a few others.



Frank


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## MIkeDuke

I need to pick up San Andreas(out next week here in the states) and maybe pick up Age of Ultron. I think that is out this week. Don't get me wrong. I do really like my setup. Everything works really great together. I would rather have awesome 5.1 then just an OK 7.1. I still catch myself looking at my surrounds because they do sound really good even if they are not placed in an optimal spot. I can say that since it's my system . I am just really looking forward to getting just a little bigger TV so the video is closer to my audio.Plus, two channel also sounds amazing right now. I have such a phenomenal center stage it spooky some times. So yes, I am happy. I will be happier once I am able to get that slightly bigger TV .


----------



## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> I need to pick up San Andreas(out next week here in the states) and maybe pick up Age of Ultron. I think that is out this week. Don't get me wrong. I do really like my setup. Everything works really great together. I would rather have awesome 5.1 then just an OK 7.1. I still catch myself looking at my surrounds because they do sound really good even if they are not placed in an optimal spot. I can say that since it's my system . I am just really looking forward to getting just a little bigger TV so the video is closer to my audio.Plus, two channel also sounds amazing right now. I have such a phenomenal center stage it spooky some times. So yes, I am happy. I will be happier once I am able to get that slightly bigger TV .



Yeah looking forward in seeing what Tv you get Mike.


Frank


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## MIkeDuke

Franin said:


> Yeah looking forward in seeing what Tv you get Mike.
> 
> Frank


Me too . Craig and I have some ideas. On the one hand I am looking forward to getting a better bigger picture. Even though people love plasma, I am really hoping that the picture quality I get is better then what I have now on my Panasonic plasma. I drove myself crazy with stuff like judder and motion blur, but I am no longer concerned with stuff like that. On the models I am thinking about, I can't even see that stuff. I just want a bigger picture dammit. But even I have to admit, again, that 55in is perfect for my room and anything bigger would have my eyes and head chancing the image on the screen like a cat chases a light pen. I think Craig said that there is some good stuff coming out at CEDIA which is why I am waiting.


----------



## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> Me too . Craig and I have some ideas. On the one hand I am looking forward to getting a better bigger picture. Even though people love plasma, I am really hoping that the picture quality I get is better then what I have now on my Panasonic plasma. I drove myself crazy with stuff like judder and motion blur, but I am no longer concerned with stuff like that. On the models I am thinking about, I can't even see that stuff. I just want a bigger picture dammit. But even I have to admit, again, that 55in is perfect for my room and anything bigger would have my eyes and head chancing the image on the screen like a cat chases a light pen. I think Craig said that there is some good stuff coming out at CEDIA which is why I am waiting.



Your in good hands with Craig Mike. He knows his stuff.


Frank


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## MIkeDuke

CEDIA starts tomorrow. I hope some companies show off some nice gear in the area I am looking at. One Samsung in particular that's already out looks really nice. 
http://www.bjs.com/samsung-55-nano-...ontent-gift-card.product.285422?dimId=2000391
It looks like it's only at BJ's because Best Buy does not seem to carry it. In BB the Samsung that probably fits me the best is this
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung...lack/4213306.p?id=1219707301732&skuId=4213306
or if I go all in
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung...lver/3813039.p?id=1219607579551&skuId=3813039
But again, it depends on what the companies come out with starting tomorrow.


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## MIkeDuke

TV ordered.
I got the Samsung 55JS8500. It looked like a good one to me. I hope I made a good choice. I should get it by Thursday. Now I just have to wait for my rack and TV stand and then wait a few weeks for Craig to come down and help me with the install. I. I am sure the Samsung will look fantastic once calibrated..


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## MIkeDuke

I have a question for anybody who knows video and is in here . Does having HDR in a TV affect the overall black level, and or contrast ration that one can get? Mainly, will the blacks be not quite as black as a TV without HDR? Just wondering. I have no doubt that this will be an upgrade from panny plasma.


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## MIkeDuke

Again, I hate to have so many posts in a row but oh well. Everything has been delivered. It will not be as easy as I had hoped. The one stand weighs a ton and it needs to go up to the second floor. I hope we can just get it in the house and then bring up the pieces one at a time. The freaking box weighs over 140lbs. I feel bad because most of the putting together of this is going to fall on Craig. He is just the greatest. Hopefully we can bring up some of the parts on there own to make it easier. Next week hopefully will go smoothly.


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## Selden Ball

Presumably the TV itself is rather heavy: it has a very large sheet of glass protecting its pixels. As a result, its stand has to be quite heavy, too. You don't want it to be overly top-heavy and prone to tipping over.


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## MIkeDuke

Hey Selden.
With help, I was able to get it up stairs. It is freaking heavy. But the TV itself is not going on it. I bought this as well.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LJX4OOU?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00
This will be able to slide behind the stand I got which was this
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008M8FKQ6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00
This is what was heavy as hell. This is the setup Craig suggested so that is what I bought.


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> I'd suggest
> a) a "soft reset" -- unplug the pre/pro from wall power for 10 minutes
> b) *a "hard reset" -- press the button combination which does a "reset to factory conditions". Do it several times. Sometimes a half-dozen resets in a row are needed to clear up some problems.
> *
> If they don't help, then I'm afraid it's time for sending it to a repair center. It might or might not be covered by Integra's extended HDMI warranty.
> 
> 
> 
> The TV's YouTube app doesn't use the pre/pro for video, only for audio. The TV has its own separate network connection to fetch the a/v from YouTube.
> 
> If you're using ARC (Audio Return Channel) to get the sound from the TV to the pre/pro, then the audio would be going over HDMI from the TV to the pre/pro. If you have an optical (or coax RCA) connection from the TV to the pre/pro, then that's where the sound would go, and HDMI wouldn't be involved.


Thanks Selden.
I can try the options you suggested. I just don't know the buttons for a factory reset so I would have to look them up. If that does not work, I am not sending this in for repair. Last time I did that I was without my system for at least 3 months. That's not going to happen again. I will probably trash it and just get a new Marantz. Probably the 
AV7702mkII. I can't see any real functional difference between that and the AV8802A. For what I need, (only 5.1 and eq capabilities) they seem to be equal. Thanks for your ideas. I don't have faith though that they will work. Luck has not been my strong suit in these situations.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Thanks Selden.
> I can try the options you suggested. I just don't know the buttons for a factory reset so I would have to look them up.


They're at the end of the table of contents, on page 5, with more details on page 86 of the owner's manual. Bear in mind that it'll delete the Audyssey settings, too.



> If that does not work, I am not sending this in for repair. Last time I did that I was without my system for at least 3 months. That's not going to happen again. I will probably trash it and just get a new Marantz. Probably the
> AV7702mkII. I can't see any real functional difference between that and the AV8802A.


As best I can determine, the major differences are in the hardware quality (including electronics), which translates into a very subtle improvement in the audio. The 8802a also has one pair of XLR inputs. The AV7702MkII's analog inputs are all RCA.



> For what I need, (only 5.1 and eq capabilities) they seem to be equal. Thanks for your ideas. I don't have faith though that they will work. Luck has not been my strong suit in these situations.


Good luck!


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> They're at the end of the table of contents, on page 5, with more details on page 86 of the owner's manual. Bear in mind that it'll delete the Audyssey settings, too.
> 
> As best I can determine, the major differences are in the hardware quality (including electronics), which translates into a very subtle improvement in the audio. The 8802a also has one pair of XLR inputs. The AV7702MkII's analog inputs are all RCA.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck!


Yea, I know doing a reset will wipe out Audyssey settings. I don't know what else I would have to worry about. If it works, Craig was going to have someone he knows help calibrate my TV anyway, so we would just be doing a full system cal now with audio and video. I think that can be done. 

As far as the analog inputs being all RCA, I don't think that would affect me. What would they be used for? The only thing that I have that is not HDMI is my turn table which is connected through a small phono preamp. I am guessing I can just connect it the way it is now. Nothing balanced as far as analog inputs though.

Thanks. I am going to need it.


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## Selden Ball

Mike,

Analog audio inputs would be used by A/V devices which don't have a digital or hdmi audio output -- like a laserdisc player or VCR or turntable. Some people like to use them to connect the analog outputs of their Oppo BD players when using them to play CDs. The sound difference is very subtle, though. Marantz pre/pros do have a dedicated phono input, but you probably shouldn't use it. Instead continue to use the preamp you already have and connect it to one of the other stereo analog inputs. 

Getting the AV7702MkII will make it possible for you to view 4K streams and make full use of a 4K BD player when they become available, so at least there's that silver lining to the dark cloud.


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## MIkeDuke

I forget which input we have the TT plugged into, but it works fine that way. I think the 7702MKII would do me fine. I can't see spending more money than I have to. They both see to have the "pro" version of Audyssey. It would be neat to then only need a 4k BR player and media and at least I can do that. Even though it would still be 5.1, seeing some movies in 4k on a consistent basis would be cool. But I am still going to try that reset sequence, even though I don't think it will work. 
Thanks Selden.


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## Selden Ball

You're very welcome.


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## MIkeDuke

I talked the store near me. They said they are taking pre orders for the 7702mkII now. They indicated that they won't get them in until the end of the month. I think the 8802a is out now. That has Atmos, can be upgraded to Auro and either it already has, or can be upgraded to DTS:X. I know it retails for $3999 but if I can get a good deal, I may just order that thinking it will come in quicker. I really don't feel like waiting longer then 4 weeks. I may not order it tomorrow but I am going to the store tomorrow to talk to them about it. Plus, I need to see how much they charge for installation.


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## Selden Ball

You might want to consider getting a quote from JDSmoothie of AVScience. Contact info is in his profile at http://www.avsforum.com/forum/members/7847949-jdsmoothie.html My understanding is that their prices are substantially lower than Brick&Mortar stores can manage. Of course, you'd still probably want to pay someone to install it for you. I dunno if the price difference would make up for that. My personal experience has been that local AV stores often will include services at no additional cost in their higher prices that internet resellers can't provide (like providing loaners while failed equipment is out for repairs or actually taking care of packing and shipping the equipment).


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## MIkeDuke

Not that I am in the "price is no issue camp". If I was, I would be getting a Trinnov . I think I would rather do everything with one store. That way I get to know a store that is near me and if I have any issues, I could probably get them to help me out easier. I want a deal but I just feel more comfortable dealing with a dedicated store with something like this. I think they would be me more willing to help, plus I like the idea of having dealings with a store that is close to me. Online is a good choice for a lot of people, just not me. I am sure they will charge me an install fee but that's what I am going to deal with. Hopefully I can get some kind of deal on the item itself.


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## MIkeDuke

So I am going to look today. The two seem to be the 7702mkII or the 8802A. Both Marantz. I am trying to find real differences between the two. They both support Atmos Auro and DTS:X. They both have the pro suite of Audyssey and I think they are both equal in being really 4k compatible. They are also listed as 11.2. Now I thought I read that the 8802A can actually support 2 more channels via rca connections but I can't find that now. The retail price on them is really spread out. The 7702mkII is $2199(I think) and the 8802A is $3999. Now given that they have so many similar features regarding audio and video capabilities, what could possibly make the price difference justified. I mean the 7702mkII seems to have the same 4k capabilities and audio capabilities as the 8802A. I am going to ask them to compare and contrast them for me because I really can't see a difference. Besides the XLR inputs and maybe better insides. I still can't believe that the 7702mKII would suck.

But here is the rub. The 7702mkII is coming out in 4 weeks and they are taking orders now for it. The 8802A I could probably get right away if I wanted it. If I go for the 7702mkII that means I would probably be with out my system for a longer time . I just want some one to tell me again that the 7702mkII is fully 4k ready and can do all the stuff I would need it to with all the latest features of 4k. I am sure the 8802A can. I am not buying today anyway. I will say I need a few days to think about it blah blah blah. 

Thanks for any help.


----------



## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> So I am going to look today. The two seem to be the 7702mkII or the 8802A. Both Marantz. I am trying to find real differences between the two. They both support Atmos Auro and DTS:X. They both have the pro suite of Audyssey and I think they are both equal in being really 4k compatible. They are also listed as 11.2. Now I thought I read that the 8802A can actually support 2 more channels via rca connections but I can't find that now. The retail price on them is really spread out. The 7702mkII is $2199(I think) and the 8802A is $3999. Now given that they have so many similar features regarding audio and video capabilities, what could possibly make the price difference justified. I mean the 7702mkII seems to have the same 4k capabilities and audio capabilities as the 8802A. I am going to ask them to compare and contrast them for me because I really can't see a difference. Besides the XLR inputs and maybe better insides. I still can't believe that the 7702mKII would suck.
> 
> But here is the rub. The 7702mkII is coming out in 4 weeks and they are taking orders now for it. The 8802A I could probably get right away if I wanted it. If I go for the 7702mkII that means I would probably be with out my system for a longer time . I just want some one to tell me again that the 7702mkII is fully 4k ready and can do all the stuff I would need it to with all the latest features of 4k. I am sure the 8802A can. I am not buying today anyway. I will say I need a few days to think about it blah blah blah.
> 
> Thanks for any help.



Hey Mike I think the 7702 MKII will be fine. I think the internal components between the two maybe different but let's be honest is their a difference in sound between the two? But then again I haven't heard them together to make a comparison. 
I've always been under the impression that most pre amps for movies are quite similar. I guess it's the type of eq you use and the room. If your going after a flat response ( like many do, but there are many that like there own custom curves ) I can't see playing movies it should be any different than what you have now. 
Hey but that's me!!  good luck with your choice Mike.


Frank


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Frank.
The main "feature" it (8802A) seems to have is balanced inputs. I really don't think I need that right now. If everything else is pretty much the same feature wise, then the 7702mkII would be the logical choice. I can't believe that it would sound worse than my 80.3 sounded. It's also more affordable then the Integra 80.6. But, I would have to wait at least a month to get it. That's the crappy part. 
We shall see.
Thanks again Frank.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> So I am going to look today. The two seem to be the 7702mkII or the 8802A. Both Marantz. I am trying to find real differences between the two. They both support Atmos Auro and DTS:X.


 A quibble: the DTS:X firmware isn't expected to be available until some time in January. This is the case for _all_ of the manufacturers which will be providing it.


> They both have the pro suite of Audyssey and I think they are both equal in being really 4k compatible.


 They are. They use the same HDMI chipset, which is what detrmines that.


> They are also listed as 11.2. Now I thought I read that the 8802A can actually support 2 more channels via rca connections but I can't find that now.


Both pre/pros support 13.2, (9.2.4) although only 11 speakers will be active at the same time. (The same is true of the SR6010 and SR7010 AVRs.) Which speakers are active depends on which upmixer you use.



> The retail price on them is really spread out. The 7702mkII is $2199(I think) and the 8802A is $3999. Now given that they have so many similar features regarding audio and video capabilities, what could possibly make the price difference justified. I mean the 7702mkII seems to have the same 4k capabilities and audio capabilities as the 8802A. I am going to ask them to compare and contrast them for me because I really can't see a difference. Besides the XLR inputs and maybe better insides. I still can't believe that the 7702mKII would suck.


As I mentioned before, it's more the quality of the mechanical and electrical design which differentiates them. For example, the 8802 has a copper-clad chassis but the 7702 doesn't. This supposedly reduces interference from outside RF. The 8802 has a separate HDAM preamp circuit board for each of its outputs, while the 7702 has its HDAM preamps all on a single circuit board. This supposedly reduces cross-talk and other internal noise interference. There are other similar quality differences. Oh, and the 8802A is made in Japan while the 7702mkII is made in China. Some people care about that. (But their Japanese employees have to be paid more, which also contributes to the increased price.)


> But here is the rub. The 7702mkII is coming out in 4 weeks and they are taking orders now for it. The 8802A I could probably get right away if I wanted it. If I go for the 7702mkII that means I would probably be with out my system for a longer time . I just want some one to tell me again that the 7702mkII is fully 4k ready and can do all the stuff I would need it to with all the latest features of 4k. I am sure the 8802A can. I am not buying today anyway. I will say I need a few days to think about it blah blah blah.
> 
> Thanks for any help.


You might want to consider downloading the user manuals for both and doing an item-by-item comparison. They're available at
http://manuals.marantz.com/av8802a/na/en/
and
http://manuals.marantz.com/av7702mk2/na/en/


----------



## MIkeDuke

Well,
tis ordered. I got the 7702mkII. I think for my needs it will be fine. So at most it will be a 7.2.4 system playing at one time. So the .4 represents the 4 atmos speakers above me (ceiling) correct? And then the 7 represents a standard 7 channel system and the .2 represents 2 possible subs. A lot of diagrams show all the speakers on the same plane, if you know what I mean. 
So it would look like this 








Plus the 4 speakers above my head? That's what I would end up getting?
Here is another picture








Just add the 4 above and wammo, Atmos here I am? Those would be the 11 speakers that are active?
I think the 7702mkII will do me just fine. Not to mention that all I need is a 4k BR player and media and at least I will have the better picture. Am I right?
Thanks


----------



## witchdoctor

MIkeDuke said:


> So that is up to now. Let me know what you think and thanks for looking.


Looks good, when I added the HTPS 7000 to my system it really improved the soundstage. It has saved my equipment more than once. I had one of its fuses blow and replaced them with the HiFi Tuning fuses and what a nice upgrade:
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-996-hifi-tuning-fuses-silverstar-small-fast.aspx

I got it out of necessity but wish i had changed it out from day one.


----------



## MIkeDuke

witchdoctor said:


> Looks good, when I added the HTPS 7000 to my system it really improved the soundstage. It has saved my equipment more than once. I had one of its fuses blow and replaced them with the HiFi Tuning fuses and what a nice upgrade:
> http://www.musicdirect.com/p-996-hifi-tuning-fuses-silverstar-small-fast.aspx
> 
> I got it out of necessity but wish i had changed it out from day one.


Thanks. I tried to do the best with what I have space for. I had a power surge that was just too much. It fried my Integra, which is why I just bought a Marantz. But it's good. The Integra was the only thing I lost that was plugged into it. But it gave me an excuse to upgrade  .


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Well,
> tis ordered. I got the 7702mkII. I think for my needs it will be fine. So at most it will be a 7.2.4 system playing at one time. So the .4 represents the 4 atmos speakers above me (ceiling) correct?


Correct.


> And then the 7 represents a standard 7 channel system and the .2 represents 2 possible subs.


Correct. In most cases. Some people who have their seating against the back wall prefer to have Front Wide speakers instead of Rear Surround speakers.


> A lot of diagrams show all the speakers on the same plane, if you know what I mean.


Right. They're showing the triaditional 7.1 speaker configuration and (mostly) predate the availability of Atmos and Auro3D (and DTS:X).



> So it would look like this
> ...
> Plus the 4 speakers above my head? That's what I would end up getting?


 Yes.



> I think the 7702mkII will do me just fine. Not to mention that all I need is a 4k BR player and media and at least I will have the better picture. Am I right?


 Yes, you are correct. 

A more helpful picture might be this one from page 66 of the AV7702MkII's manual:


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Selden. I just couldn't justify spending over $4,000 for a preamp when something that was just over $2,000 meets my needs. Now, I looked up your receiver. It says that it can also do 9.1.2. Can my preamp do the same thing? Two speakers over my head? Now it's just the waiting game. Hopefully the 4 weeks was a worst case.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Thanks Selden. I just couldn't justify spending over $4,000 for a preamp when something that was just over $2,000 meets my needs. Now, I looked up your receiver. It says that it can also do 9.1.2. Can my preamp do the same thing? Two speakers over my head?


 Yes. That would be a 5.1.2 configuration if you don't add more ear-level speakers.



> Now it's just the waiting game. Hopefully the 4 weeks was a worst case.


 I have to admit, that's one of the reasons I finally decided to get a receiver this time instead of a pre/pro. It was available several weeks sooner!


----------



## MIkeDuke

Yesterday I got an email from the dealer and he said that the Marantz was able to be ordered. I hope I am in the first batch and that maybe it will be quicker than 4 weeks. One can hope.


----------



## Selden Ball

Yay!


----------



## MIkeDuke

I know right . I just sent back their work order that they needed me to sign so I can get on the install schedule. Now I just wait.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden,
Again, I don't need to worry about this for a very long time, but in post 1237, you have picture. You say it's from the 7702mkII manual. It looks like it shows a 9.1.4 system. Or with two subs a 9.2.4 system. The extra two being FWL and FWR speakers. Those are Front Wide speakers.
And the other ceiling speakers are Top Rear Left, Top Front left and Top Rear Right. Top Front right. That looks like the max number of speakers. *But in reality, what I bought can "only" play 7.1.4 at one time*. I am guessing that would negate the Front wide speakers. I would have the Center, LF, RF, SL, SR, SBL, SBR, and the 4 Atmos speakers running at one time right? Because that picture from the users guide can be mis-leading if you just look at it with no context. 

I am not complaining. I think a 7.1.4 setup would sound really good. I just want to know that I under stood it correctly. Also, the max it can do is 10.1 Auro? Is that right? Only the really expensive ones like the Datasat, Trinnov and other kilobucks preamps allow you more than 7.1.4 playing at one time right and greater than 10.1 Auro correct? But we also did say that I could. if I wanted to use only 2 Atmos speakers. Then that *would*
allow me to do a 9.1.2 setup. I that correct? Do the Atmos speakers that are over your head have to be direct radiating or can they be something like this 
http://www.focal.com/usa/en/electra-1000-be-2/213-electra-sr-1000-be-3544050695016.html
I was wondering if you could place two of the as your Atmos speakers because they have different modes
to distribute the sound. It would sort of be like a bubble of sound. Or do they have to be direct radiating speakers. 
Even though I am only 5.1 I am excited to get my system up and running again.
Thanks.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I got my install date. It's Dec 21st. Guess I was close to the top of the list .
P.S Selden, any thoughts on what I posted above?
Thanks


----------



## Selden Ball

Strange. I was sure I'd responded. Oh, well, I'll try again.



MIkeDuke said:


> Selden,
> Again, I don't need to worry about this for a very long time, but in post 1237, you have picture. You say it's from the 7702mkII manual. It looks like it shows a 9.1.4 system. Or with two subs a 9.2.4 system. The extra two being FWL and FWR speakers. Those are Front Wide speakers.
> And the other ceiling speakers are Top Rear Left, Top Front left and Top Rear Right. Top Front right. That looks like the max number of speakers. *But in reality, what I bought can "only" play 7.1.4 at one time*. I am guessing that would negate the Front wide speakers. I would have the Center, LF, RF, SL, SR, SBL, SBR, and the 4 Atmos speakers running at one time right? Because that picture from the users guide can be mis-leading if you just look at it with no context.


 The 7.1.4 speaker combination that you list is the standard one consisting of 11 speakers. It should work fine. However, D+M does allow you to connect 13 speakers simultaneously but they aren't all active at the same time. Different sound processing options use different combinations of speakers. When 13 speakers are configured as a 9.1.4 system, Atmos and the new Dolby Surround upmixer (aka DSU) use the 7.1.4 configuration you mentioned, which excludes the Front Wides. When you select either of the upmixers DTS Neo:X or Audyssey DSX, they use a 9.1.2 configuration: the Front Wides and Front Heights are active but the rearmost overheads are not. What combination of speakers DTS:X and the associated DTS Neural:X upmixer will use when 13 speakers are connected is not yet known.



> I am not complaining. I think a 7.1.4 setup would sound really good.


 It does  


> I just want to know that I under stood it correctly.


You did. 


> Also, the max it can do is 10.1 Auro? Is that right?


That's right: Auro 3D uses a 5.1.5 (or 5.1.4.1) configuration which includes the three fronts, Side Surrounds, Front Heights, Side Heights and Top Center (aka Voice of God). An update to the Auro3D firmware is expected next year which will allow the selection of Rear Heights as an alternative to Side Heights.


> Only the really expensive ones like the Datasat, Trinnov and other kilobucks preamps allow you more than 7.1.4 playing at one time right and greater than 10.1 Auro correct?


Correct. 


> But we also did say that I could. if I wanted to use only 2 Atmos speakers. Then that *would*
> allow me to do a 9.1.2 setup. I that correct?


Correct, bearing mind that while Atmos would use the Front Wides in that configuration, DSU would not. 


> Do the Atmos speakers that are over your head have to be direct radiating or can they be something like this
> http://www.focal.com/usa/en/electra-1000-be-2/213-electra-sr-1000-be-3544050695016.html
> I was wondering if you could place two of the as your Atmos speakers because they have different modes
> to distribute the sound. It would sort of be like a bubble of sound. Or do they have to be direct radiating speakers.
> Even though I am only 5.1 I am excited to get my system up and running again.
> Thanks.


Dolby recommends direct radiating speakers in order to provide directionality: i.e. so sounds seem to come from particular directions. Bipolar or dipolar speakers are designed to reflect sounds off adjacent walls, so sounds generated by those speakers don't seem to be coming from a specific direction. They make the soundfield more diffuse so as to provide ambience. That was how surround sound was originally intended to be used when it was first introduced. lo those many years ago: for ambience instead of being directional. Even so, many people do use those types of speakers with Atmos and enjoy the results.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Selden. All of that made sense. Now I am set for a while and all I have to do is wait until the 21st. I think I can do that. Again, I will be 
at 5.1 for the foreseeable future but it's good to know that I will at least be good for some form of Atmos, Auro, and DTS:X. Those two being upgrades some how. The upmixers are interesting. But again, I will be at 5.1 for a while so I don't need to worry about that. What else is cool is that I will be able to do 4k if I get a 4k player . 
Thanks again for the explanation.


----------



## Selden Ball

Mike,

You're very welcome. I'm sure you'll have fun listening to your upgraded system.


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## MIkeDuke

Got the call. Between 1-3 on the 21st .


----------



## Selden Ball




----------



## MIkeDuke

I am really upset so this is going to be quick. Installed the Marantz. I am pretty sure the power surge that fried my Integra fried my servers HDMI board. He tried ever combo know to man and it just does not work. So now I need to see if the guy I bought the server from will fix it(doubt it) or try and find a new one(pain in my ass). So everything works but that.
P.S 
The company that I bought this server from does sell a more affordable version and it may be able to do 4k at 24hz. So, that may be an option also. I know companies will come out with 4k BR players but getting a server that can do that is also very important so I may just go that route. We shall see.


----------



## Selden Ball

Bear in mind that your server is really a computer. 

Does its video card have more than one HDMI output? Maybe a DVI or DisplayPort ? (Preferably the latter. Not all DVI connections include audio.) Simple adapters are available that'll let you connect either of those types of connectors to an HDMI cable running to your new pre/pro. Then it'd "just" be a software setting to tell the video card which output to use.

Another alternative would be to replace the server's video card with another of the same model, although there's no guarantee that the power surge didn't damage than just the video card. Hopefully there's somebody in your vicinity who could do that for you. Look for computer repair services. In principle, someone from Best Buy's Geek Squad should be able to do it, but try them only as the very last resort.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Bear in mind that your server is really a computer.
> 
> Does its video card have more than one HDMI output? Maybe a DVI or DisplayPort ? (Preferably the latter. Not all DVI connections include audio.) Simple adapters are available that'll let you connect either of those types of connectors to an HDMI cable running to your new pre/pro. Then it'd "just" be a software setting to tell the video card which output to use.
> 
> Another alternative would be to replace the server's video card with another of the same model, although there's no guarantee that the power surge didn't damage than just the video card. Hopefully there's somebody in your vicinity who could do that for you. Look for computer repair services. In principle, someone from Best Buy's Geek Squad should be able to do it, but try them only as the very last resort.


It only has one HDMI output. When we tried the DVI output all I got was video, no audio(We used a DVI to HDMI connection but that did not work.) The thing is really tight like a drum. You just can't pop of the top and get in there. Or if you can, I can't see how. I am really thinking of just getting a new one because I think the new one can do 4k at 30hz. That's better than nothing. 
Thanks for you suggestions though.


----------



## Selden Ball

Oh. well. Maybe they'll accept it as a trade-in?

If not, after you've gotten a replacement, you could investigate just ripping the old one apart to get inside to see what's what. It's not as if it'd be doing anything useful, anyhow.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I am going to take a chance and contact them to see if they are willing to look at it even though it's out of warranty and if they will look at it, how much they would charge to fix it. I guess it won't hurt just to ask.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I got an email from Baetis. The guy said that he is in England but he will get back to me later today with some info.


----------



## MIkeDuke

So here is the reply I got from Baetis
"Hi Michael
I strongly suspect that an attempted repair of the Baetis HT may be futile. For one, multiple components may be friend, such as the power supply, motherboard, RAM or CPU itself. Since the model is now aged, it may even be impossible to get the same parts again for testing.
The Prodigy does indeed do 4K video at up to 24Hz. In order to do this, one only requires HDMI 1.4; HDMI 2.0 is required for HDMI video at up to 60 Hz. 
Any Prodigy ordered today will ship in January with Windows 10 and JRiver Media Center 21 – the latest version. The other advantage of the Prodigy M is that it will come with a brand new warranty, of course."

I showed a friend of mine at work, who has built many media servers the specs for the one I would get. He was telling me that he could build me one, with better specs for the same, or even less money. He also said that it could be 4k at 60Hz instead of 24Hz. He was going on about a lot of stuff he could do. Many people seem to build their own. Even one of the HTOTM had one that was home built. Plus, my friend said he could make it upgrade-able so if I want to change something later I can just do that. Over our holiday break, he said he would try and come back with something like 3 options for me to choose from. He also said, and I believe him, that he would support this(I work with him so it would kind of hard for him to hide ). But I do trust him and I may go this route. I really like the idea of it being upgrade-able video card wise. So I am curious to see what he comes up with.


----------



## Selden Ball

Mike,

That sounds like a great idea! My understanding is that full 4K support at 60 fps in the graphics hardware can be rather expensive, but there are compromises that should meet your needs.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Mike,
> 
> That sounds like a great idea! My understanding is that full 4K support at 60 fps in the graphics hardware can be rather expensive, but there are compromises that should meet your needs.


This is what my friend is thinking about. He may put together other options but this looks solid
He has built them before and he really knows what he is talking about. We are going overboard for sure but I don't care. This is what we are thinking about so far
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16814487091 Graphics Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16827129075 BR Burner
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820147360 Internal HD
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16817438066 Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16811163260 Case
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820233716 Ram
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16819117402 Processor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16813130841 Mother Board

That's it. That system should be able to hold me over for a long time and do above 5.1 or 7.1 audio.
I like the fact that it is upgradeable. If something better comes out(card wise), we just have switch whatever is better.

So I am now crossing over into the dark side.


----------



## Selden Ball

That's a rather high-end system. But for 4K video, I guess that's what's needed.

The case looks like it has lots of room for disks, too.


----------



## MIkeDuke

If I am doing this, I want to do it right. I think this gives me the best for now and the best for the future. It's still A LOT more affordable and much more capable then the replacement system I would have bought from Baetis. Many people go DIY. Now I see why. So why not me . We just need to put the software on there(This will be a windows machine) Jriver, MakleMKV and DBpoweramp and I am good to go.


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> This is what my friend is thinking about. He may put together other options but this looks solid
> He has built them before and he really knows what he is talking about. We are going overboard for sure but I don't care. This is what we are thinking about so far
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16814487091 Graphics Card
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16827129075 BR Burner
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820147360 Internal HD
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16817438066 Power Supply
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16811163260 Case
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820233716 Ram
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16819117402 Processor
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16813130841 Mother Board
> 
> That's it. That system should be able to hold me over for a long time and do above 5.1 or 7.1 audio.
> I like the fact that it is upgradeable. If something better comes out(card wise), we just have switch whatever is better.
> 
> So I am now crossing over into the dark side.


Are 4k BluRay drives available? 

Can you still use your remote and keyboard?

Where is the audio card?

Craig


----------



## Selden Ball

craig john said:


> Are 4k BluRay drives available?


 Blu-ray disc drives known to be compatible with 4K Blu-ray discs are not yet available for computers.



> Can you still use your remote and keyboard?


 Mike, you'll have to discuss that with your co-worker.
In principle it's possible if one uses an appropriate IR receiver connected via USB. I know there are Harmony remotes that can be used with computers.



> Where is the audio card?


The motherboard Mike listed (MSI X99A) has builtin multichannel 7.1 analog audio outs (and Soundblaster Cinema 2 software) plus optical S/PDIF out. However, if you plan to use only HDMI, no analog audio connections are needed. The video card provides both multichannel audio and high resolution video over HDMI.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Craig, see answers above.
Selden, you are awesome 

What I like about this setup is that it is total expandable.
If I want to change a card (or BR drive), it can be done. I am not hardware locked.


----------



## BrolicBeast

You may have addressed this already, as I'm playing catch up on this cool thread, but I'm concerned that your power protection devices failed to protect your Integra from the below situation. Will continue reading to see how this unfolded.




MIkeDuke said:


> Man I hope someone else is in here besides me .
> Earlier today, my parents said a tree branch fell on an electrical wire outside. That made the electricity go out for a minute. Then the power came back on.
> 
> With my system, I am having issues. My amps turn on. My server turns on. My TV turns on. Everything "turns on". But when I turn on the Integra, I can't get any of the digital sources to work. I can't switch to the server, cable, or BR player. My TV just says "No cable Connected to HDMI 1. Check the cable connections and the settings of your source device. Press Source on your remote to select connected source device.​"
> 
> So again, nothing digital works that is plugged into the Integra(all stuff that uses the HDMI board). *But, my turn table, which does not use the HDMI board does work. * So, can we assume that I lost the HDMI board in the 80.3, just like I did in the 80.2? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. WTF. That is the only thing I can think of. Again, all of my components turn on but I can't see or do anything with the server, BR player or cable box. I think, somehow, even though it was off the 80.3 was damaged. If it was then I am really upset. In case you can't tell. That means I have to dis-connect everything and have it repaired. But this is just a best guess I have. I have no real easy way of checking. We did unplug and then plug the HDMI cables from the Integra in and out and nothing happened. I think it's the Integra and I think it's the board.
> 
> Does anybody have any other ideas or suggestions I can try? I can't believe this may have happened to me again  .
> 
> P.S the YouTube app in the TV works, How can that work and nothing else work. That, in theory uses the HDMI board right? REALLY, WTF?


----------



## MIkeDuke

Hey Matt. I have a Monster Power conditioner and an Audience conditioner. I think when we re-did my room with the new TV we put the Integra in the monster. I think it used to be in the Audience. I don't remember where we put the server. When the guy came to connect the Marantz, it looks like he connected it to the monster. The server I think is connected to the other one. Now, I have other items plugged into each different power conditioner like my OPPO, PS3, TV and turn table and they all work. 

So right now, everything works except for my server. That leads me to believe that the server is gone. The installer tried to plug it into different HDMI inputs in the Marantz but I still got nothing. That's why I need a new server. The thing is, the server powers on, I just get no video from it. I live in a very bad power area. I just have to hope that nothing like this happens again.


----------



## audioguy

Based on reading this, I would never buy a product from Baetis. Not because it got fried but their response. Their objective is selfishness. They want you to buy a new one vs getting the old one fixed. My server is older than yours and I am comfortable that it can be repaired. 

Good for you that you didn't bow to their pressure.


----------



## MIkeDuke

audioguy said:


> Based on reading this, I would never buy a product from Baetis. Not because it got fried but their response. Their objective is selfishness. They want you to buy a new one vs getting the old one fixed. My server is older than yours and I am comfortable that it can be repaired.
> 
> Good for you that you didn't bow to their pressure.


You know Chuck,

I did the whole Baetis thing for a few reasons. One, was that I am not technically capable of building my own. Second, I knew a dealer and he set me up with it. It was good for me to learn on. But the owner was an ass. I don't crap from anybody. I called up because regular DVD's looked bad and I was hoping he would help me out. This is a while ago. He was a real jerk and I screamed at him over the phone. That calmed him down because he was not being nice to me. It did turn out however to be a Jriver issue not a server issue but that's besides the point. He also told me that he was going to stop making my model because the margins were too thin. So they came out with more expensive models. Saying that my model was so out of date that it did not warrant being fixed kind of pissed me off again. Now, they have a less expensive model that I was thinking about getting. My friend at work said "I could build you a machine that would be upgrade able, and would be better then the Beatis." So that is what I am going to do. It was good for me to learn on, but now this one I am having built should be really good and last me a long time. Soon I will be able to give my friend the go ahead to build the machine I listed above. The only thing I don't like is that it is so much bigger, but I will make it work. Now I see why people do DIY. Again, I am not sorry I bought the Baetis because at the time it fit my needs perfectly because it did everything I needed it to do. But now it's time to move on.


----------



## audioguy

I had one phone conversation with the owner when I was considering upgrading my music server to be able to do movies as well. I can't say he wasn't helpful but he was quite full of himself. Major turn off to me. There is a huge difference in being confident and being egotistical.

I had someone create my music server as well. [MusicVault Diamond]. Disliking any version of Windows is not close to how I really feel, and like you, I had neither the time nor inclination to dive in and learn enough to make my own. Part of the price I paid for this product includes life time support and I have taken much advantage of that support.

I know that you will end up with a great server.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I will start getting this organized next Mon. Then, my friend will order the stuff and put it together. I am looking forward to getting a server again. Once you get used to it, going from disk to disk is a pain. As I said, it was a great server and a good one to start with. But now I am ready to up the level a bit. I think it will be a good one. It should be the last box I need to buy.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Equipment ordered. Now I just have to have my friend get the stuff and put it together .


----------



## groel

Hi Mike, 

Noob here, I made it through about 8 pages of this thread before lack of patience got the best of me so please forgive me if this has already been addressed. 

I'm building my first grown-up system, and recently bought a pair of Focal Aria 926s, complemented by Chorus 705s in the rear and the Aria CC900 and sub500PHP. I'm looking for a new AVR and have access to significant Denon/Marantz discounts through work, but the receivers I'm considering range from $3k to $600 retail, and I'm not clear on what I need to support these speakers. 

Usage is split between music and movies/sports, and other than the potential for using 2 speakers in a 2nd zone, I don't anticipate ever moving to Atmos, so 7.2 should be all I need. It looks like all the new receivers have 2.0, 2.2, 4k, air play, etc. capabilities, so do I really need to be concerned with much more than having enough power? Would the Denon S910W meet my needs as well as the X7200WA, at one fifth the cost? Also looking at the Marantz SR7010 and SR6010, among others. 

Thanks for any insight you may be able to offer -- I'll be sure to get through the rest of this thread, along with the JML/Focal owner's thread. 

Greg


----------



## MIkeDuke

Hey Greg.
Thanks for stopping in. Looking at the specs of the 928, I would be a little concerned that they dip really low in impedance. What ever receiver you go for, try to see if it lists a 4ohm rating, 6ohm at the least. Typically JM Lab speakers like external amps to really shine. Both the Denon and Marantz list 6ohm ratings so that's a good sign. You just may not be able to play the system at "spirited" levels with them that's all. They all list 
6ohm ratings so that part is equal. I have never used JM labs speakers with a receiver so I can't comment for sure. These are just my thoughts at first look. It may be just a bit much for a receiver. I would pop on over to the Focal/JM Labs thread and see what they say. But if it were me, I would probably get an external amp as well. At least for the front two speakers. Hope that helps a bit.


----------



## groel

Thanks for the quick reply, Mike. This is where I get confused, and others I've spoken with in-store have said that I shouldn't need an external amp. 

As the impedance goes down, if there isn't sufficient amperage, the speakers will be under-powered and the level of distortion will increase if you try to push them higher, correct? 

So what happens if an amp isn't rated below 6 ohms and the resistance dips to 4 ohms? Will it burn out trying to power the speakers? 

Any thoughts/recommendations on Denon/Marantz amps? Will these units impart warmth/coloration/etc., as well? 

Greg


----------



## Selden Ball

groel said:


> Thanks for the quick reply, Mike. This is where I get confused, and others I've spoken with in-store have said that I shouldn't need an external amp.
> 
> As the impedance goes down, if there isn't sufficient amperage, the speakers will be under-powered and the level of distortion will increase if you try to push them higher, correct?
> 
> So what happens if an amp isn't rated below 6 ohms and the resistance dips to 4 ohms? Will it burn out trying to power the speakers?


 I'm not Mike, but... modern AVRs include protection circuits. They'll shut down automatically if they overheat or if the speakers draw more current than the AVRs can handle.



> Any thoughts/recommendations on Denon/Marantz amps? Will these units impart warmth/coloration/etc., as well?


 All modern AVRs are designed to provide ruler-flat frequency responses at their outputs. Speakers and room acoustics determine the quality of what you hear. In most cases, though, the roomEQ software will improve the quality somewhat, with the details of how they sound being determined by precisely where you put the calibration microphone.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Hey Greg.
As Selden said above, (which I did not know), AVR's wil shut down if they are stressed too much. I only recommend going with an amp because the speakers you are looking at dip all the way down to 2.9ohms. Now granted that is not their nominal rating and it may be only a certain frequency that this happens, but that is pretty low. Unless AVR's have really improved since the last time I had one, that would be pushing it to the limit I think. I personally have 2 amps. One for my front two speakers and one for my surrounds and center. 

The 926 have a reasonable sensitivity at 91.5 db. But again, I personally think unless the AVR has a beefy power supply, you may be pushing it to the limit. Both the Marantz and Denon would probably sound fine with Focal speakers. They are both good companies with fine reputations. But again, if it were me, I would be cautious. Just look at Selen's system. If I am not mistaken his system has a Marantz AVR that is probably rated for 6ohm , but his speakers, which are bookshelf definitive technology speakers(Pro-Monitor 1000) are rated at 91db and are 8ohm friendly. So his speakers are easy to drive with an AVR.(Side note, I used to have a def tech system and I loved it ). I would just be worried that your speakers go all the way down to below 3ohms. I may be wrong, and I freely admit that I could be, but that to me seems like it would be putting a lot of strain on just an AVR.

If you can get Denon or Marantz at a good deal, I would probably suggest going with an affordable AVR that meets you needs spec wise, then go for an external amp from one of those two companies. If you do that, you may be able to save money by going with an AVR that is lower powered, but still has all the features you want, and then still get an external amp. Again, these are just my thoughts. If you want to go with the what the store said, that's fine also. But personally, I would not do that. 
Hope that helps and does not make it more confusing for you.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> But again, if it were me, I would be cautious. Just look at Selen's system. If I am not mistaken his system has a Marantz AVR that is probably rated for 6ohm , but his speakers, which are bookshelf definitive technology speakers(Pro-Monitor 1000) are rated at 91db and are 8ohm friendly. So his speakers are easy to drive with an AVR.(Side note, I used to have a def tech system and I loved it ). I would just be worried that your speakers go all the way down to below 3ohms. I may be wrong, and I freely admit that I could be, but that to me seems like it would be putting a lot of strain on just an AVR.


It's only the surrounds that are DefTech. The fronts are NHT 2.9 for LR plus AC2 center: low impedance but reasonable efficiency. Note also the MM9000 multichannel amp, which is what drives them (plus two of the overheads). It's the highest quality multichannel amp that Marantz has made for many years, hence the 9xxx designation. I've had that speaker/amp combination since 2001.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> It's only the surrounds that are DefTech. The fronts are NHT 2.9 for LR plus AC2 center: low impedance but reasonable efficiency. Note also the MM9000 multichannel amp, which is what drives them (plus two of the overheads). It's the highest quality multichannel amp that Marantz has made for many years, hence the 9xxx designation. I've had that speaker/amp combination since 2001.


I could not tell all of that from your sig. I did not see the NHT speakers listed. NHT is some great stuff. I remember reading reviews of how fantastic the NHT 2.9 was. Don't think they make them anymore but they were always well received. I did not look up to see what the MM9000 was so I did not realize that was an amp. Anything Marantz is going to be top notch. I can imagine that the combo is very good. Like you, I have had my Focal+Bryston combo for many many years(Bryston amps since 2001 and 2002). Speakers have changed a bit, but my amps have stayed the same. 

So groel, it is still my personal recommendation that you at least try and get a two channel amp for the front two speakers. That will make driving the surrounds and center a bit easier.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I could not tell all of that from your sig. I did not see the NHT speakers listed. NHT is some great stuff. I remember reading reviews of how fantastic the NHT 2.9 was. Don't think they make them anymore but they were always well received. I did not look up to see what the MM9000 was so I did not realize that was an amp.


I've updated my sig somewhat. I'd originally enhanced it just to include my Atmos config.



> Anything Marantz is going to be top notch. I can imagine that the combo is very good. Like you, I have had my Focal+Bryston combo for many many years(Bryston amps since 2001 and 2002). Speakers have changed a bit, but my amps have stayed the same.
> 
> So groel, it is still my personal recommendation that you at least try and get a two channel amp for the front two speakers. That will make driving the surrounds and center a bit easier.


Yup. Offloading the AVR should help, if only to relieve the AVR's power supply somewhat.


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## MIkeDuke

Got you on your sig.
That is a great system. My first move was going from a Denon 3300 to a Denon 3300+one amp. Then I added a second amp. Then I started my preamp journey.


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## groel

Thank you both, Mike and Selden. I'll take a look at what's available and run a few prospective configurations across the thread, if you don't mind. I'm generally a "buy it once" person, so I'd rather extend the budget than go cheap and re-buy a short time down the road. 

Greg


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## MIkeDuke

groel said:


> Thank you both, Mike and Selden. *I'll take a look at what's available and run a few prospective configurations across the thread, if you don't mind.* I'm generally a "buy it once" person, so I'd rather extend the budget than go cheap and re-buy a short time down the road.
> 
> Greg


I like your idea of trying to do it all up front. If you can, that's the way to go. Most of my upgrades were out of a need(something broke like my preamps), or an unreal deal(going from my 927's to my 1027's). Although some were wants like my server and bigger TV. But going for an amp at this point I think would be worth the extra cash it might take to do it. 
P.S if you mean this thread, that's quite all right


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## MIkeDuke

Server parts should be delivered by end of day today   .
Then my friend just has to build it and set it up. Then I just have to load Jriver and
and some other stuff and I will be back in business.
EDIT: Parts are delivered.


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## MIkeDuke

Build is coming along fine. Should be physically done tonight, then the software has to be loaded. I hope to have it installed in my system by this weekend.


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## Selden Ball

Sounds good! Uh, well, you know what I mean


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## MIkeDuke

Yea, I know what you mean. He said it's a tight fit but everything is OK. It is setup so that If I need more video power for 4k, in case my video card with 2GB of ram isn't enough, I have extra spots for additional cards and they will in turn act like one card.


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## MIkeDuke

Fri = install. Then I just have to map the drives, setup some software, setup the wifi and I am golden   .


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## MIkeDuke

OK. Server was installed.
Good news is it was installed with no issues. Also, I started a test rip of a BR disk and it was going to take half the time that it used to take me so that's a plus. But there is an issue. Here it is. I will try and explain it as best as I can.

I have Jriver MC21. When I go to play a cd, a listing of the songs comes up. When I move my mouse around a bit looking for a song, Jriver freezes. Sometimes right away or sometimes after I have played on song and go back to the main list. It just freezes up and I have to a ctrl alt del to get out of it. It also happens if you are scrolling along the song list. It sometimes happens with TV shows as well that lists episodes but it happens all the time with music. I even downloaded JR MC20 and it happened with that. So for some reason, it doesn't like lists of things. Very strange. Playing movies seems to be fine I think. Plus I can scroll through my movie list with no problems. Any idea what would cause Jriver to freeze?​ I am at a loss. This never happened with my old machine and this one is much stronger than that one


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## Selden Ball

I can't provide any advice directly related to Jriver, but your symptoms are similar to what's seen when there are hardware problems. (e.g. Jriver attempting to access a bad memory location or disk area). What kind of stress tests did your friend run on the system before providing it to you? Were any run after you got it? Sometimes connections can wiggle slightly loose during transport, resulting in intermittent problems.

I'd suggest contacting the person who built it for you and asking him for some hardware diagnostics. Running memory and disk diagnostics overnight might be appropriate, for example.


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## MIkeDuke

Hey Selden.
By bad memory, do you mean in the server itself? Because all my media is kept off the server. I don't know for sure what test he ran but I think he did some testing and made sure all patches were up to date etc... I told him I am having issues so he is aware. He installed some sort of software (I forget the name) that will allow him to remotely see my machine and work on it. It just seems odd that the issue seems to related to TV shows and music and not movies. Music is on a smaller drive but some of the TV shows are on disks that have movies that work. It's just very strange. I just hope we can fix this because I think when it's %100, it's going to be great. I can try and see what sort of tests I can run but I am not sure what they would be.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Hey Selden.
> By bad memory, do you mean in the server itself? Because all my media is kept off the server.


 It could be anywhere, including your file server. Intermittent problems are really hard to find, which is why I mentioned running diagnostics overnight.


> I don't know for sure what test he ran but I think he did some testing and made sure all patches were up to date etc... I told him I am having issues so he is aware. He installed some sort of software (I forget the name) that will allow him to remotely see my machine and work on it. It just seems odd that the issue seems to related to TV shows and music and not movies. Music is on a smaller drive but some of the TV shows are on disks that have movies that work. It's just very strange. I just hope we can fix this because I think when it's %100, it's going to be great. I can try and see what sort of tests I can run but I am not sure what they would be.


Hopefully your friend can recommend diagnostics to run or run them himself. I know of a few, but it'd be better if he used tools he's familiar with.


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## MIkeDuke

Here is something interesting. As I mentioned, the issue was also with my TV shows. Well, if I am diligent with the mouse, and move it slowly, Jriver does not freeze. I watched two different shows last night and they both played fine. One is on my RAID and one is on my other non RAID disk. So The shows can be played. It just some fast movements by the pointer in Jriver that seem to cause the issue. But it still does it in music more often I think. Some times when you listen to an song or cd, the cover rotates to make it look cool as you go back. It also freezes there at that point. It's very hard to describe on a keyboard. I need to do more testing.


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## Selden Ball

Some suggestions:

Plug the mouse (or its receiver if wireless) into a different USB port. Make sure its cable(s) are tightly plugged in.

What kind of mouse are you using? (try a different brand)

Is it a new one or old one? (get a new one) 

Wireless? (replace the batteries) 

Is it going through a USB hub? (replace the hub and/or associated cables)


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks again Selden for those tips. I can do all of that but that will not explain the symptom of it freezing when the album rotates in Jriver and then freezes. I know you are not familiar with it so it's hard to explain. But at some points, with the music drive, the album will do a rotation to make it look cool. It also freezes there. I am wondering if some sort of very specific video card issue? If so it's very strange and there is no easy way to check it out besides buying another video card. And that does not explain why it would work in the movie section, which by the way does not have episodes listed. Who knows. I guess this was the risk I took by going DIY. I took a chance and I got bit.
P.S The HD on the serverr itself is SSD so there be no disk areas on that for it to go bad. He thinks now that it could be the diver(s) for the USB 3.0 since all the issues are USB related.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Thanks again Selden for those tips. I can do all of that but that will not explain the symptom of it freezing when the album rotates in Jriver and then freezes. I know you are not familiar with it so it's hard to explain. But at some points, with the music drive, the album will do a rotation to make it look cool. It also freezes there. I am wondering if some sort of very specific video card issue? If so it's very strange and there is no easy way to check it out besides buying another video card. And that does not explain why it would work in the movie section, which by the way does not have episodes listed. Who knows. I guess this was the risk I took by going DIY. I took a chance and I got bit.
> P.S The HD on the serverr itself is SSD so there be no disk areas on that for it to go bad. He thinks now that it could be the diver(s) for the USB 3.0 since all the issues are USB related.


Drivers certainly could be the cause. I believe that motherboard has several USB2 ports, too. They'd be fine for mouse and keyboard.


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Drivers certainly could be the cause. I believe that motherboard has several USB2 ports, too. They'd be fine for mouse and keyboard.


My friend is going to log into my machine and try and re-install the drivers. Hopefully that's all it is. 
Mike


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## MIkeDuke

I think we got it. My friend logged into my machine. I don't know all this stuff about mother boards and video cards etc... But when he logged into my machine, he saw that there were two sets of drives for this board. I think he told me that he felt that he only needed to install one when he first did the build. But like most things, you don't know until you try. So he made sure to install both sets of drives this time and it looks like that did the trick. I was able to go back and forth very fast in the audio section without it freezing up. Same with the TV section. So with fingers crossed, we are going to declare victory. Hopefully only updated from now on will be happy ones .


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## Selden Ball

Great! Have fun.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Great! Have fun.


Spoke too soon. On reboot, I am getting the same issues, No internet and jriver freezing . Man this sucks.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK.
My friend and I are still experimenting. What I am going to try is this 
I have 2 USB 2.0 dongles(keyboard/mouse and wireless) and we plugged them into 2 USB 3.0 ports.
We are wondering if that could be the issue. I have 2 “legacy” USB ports on the back of
my machine. I am going to try those ports instead. I know everything is supposed to be 
backwards compatible but maybe that's the issue. It does seem to make sense though
that it could be the dongles. I know it's not a definite, but my friend said that sometimes
things don't always play nicely with USB 3.0. He said A lot of issues occur on Windows 7 and USB 3.0 and 2.0 devices.
So I am hoping he is right and just moving them to the USB 2.0 ports fixes the issue. Wish me luck .


----------



## Selden Ball

Luck!


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## MIkeDuke

So Selden,
Does that sound it could be the issue(is it plausible)? Because it sure seems that way.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> So Selden,
> Does that sound it could be the issue(is it plausible)? Because it sure seems that way.


It's certainly a possibility. I listed some others that occurred to me in a previous post up above.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> It's certainly a possibility. I listed some others that occurred to me in a previous post up above.


I noticed you mentioned some ideas. It has 2 USB 2.0 ports. I guess I was just assuming that everything would be plug and play with no issues. Now I can't wait to get home and give that a shot


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## MIkeDuke

Selden,
Here is an update. I moved the dongles to the USB 2.0 section. Good news is that I got internet back. Bad news is that I don't think it's a signal that's strong enough because when I try to get info for a movie that I rip in Jriver, it says it can find it. The way I am doing it now is the same way I did it with my other server and that worked fine. Plus, the mouse and keyboard hardly work. They work but you have no idea what it takes for me to get it to work. Do you know of any USB 3.0 internet dongles and if there any keyboard\mouse setups that are USB 3.0? I think if I have them both in the front USB 3.0 ports, it would fix my issues.


----------



## Selden Ball

Sorry: now you've exceeded my experience. 

I know we use a couple of different models of USB ethernet dongles at work, although I don't know if they're USB2 or USB3. I'll ask. (I suspect they're USB2, since we have to maintain compatibility with older equipment.) I'm somewhat surprised that the motherboard's ethernet interface is having problems. What anti-virus and firewall software is it running? (I'm wondering if that's blocking some kinds of outside access.) As often as not, home networking problems are related to router settings. (e.g. use a fixed network address instead of DHCP, disable the router's use of UPnP)

I also have no direct experience with Asus motherboards. We use Lenovo equipment at work, and my computer at home (the one I'm typing on right now) is a Dell. I assume your friend has made sure the motherboard's firmware is up to date.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> *Sorry: now you've exceeded my experience*.
> 
> I know we use a couple of different models of USB ethernet dongles at work, although I don't know if they're USB2 or USB3. I'll ask. (I suspect they're USB2, since we have to maintain compatibility with older equipment.) I'm somewhat surprised that the motherboard's ethernet interface is having problems. What anti-virus and firewall software is it running? (I'm wondering if that's blocking some kinds of outside access.) As often as not, home networking problems are related to router settings. (e.g. use a fixed network address instead of DHCP, disable the router's use of UPnP)
> 
> I also have no direct experience with Asus motherboards. We use Lenovo equipment at work, and my computer at home (the one I'm typing on right now) is a Dell. I assume your friend has made sure the motherboard's firmware is up to date.


Wow. That's a line I never thought I would here . It's a MSI motherboard though, not Asus. There is no antivirus on the machine. Like I mentioned, I can get online now. It may be a bit slow but it can be done. The thing is, it's not that these things don't work. As I said, I can get online but Jriver can't pull any movie info from the web to show when I rip a movie. And the mouse does work, barely but I have to put it in these strange spots for it to work or really close to the server for it to work. Same for the keyboard. So it's really unique/odd issues I am having now. Yes, we made sure the firmware was up to date via a pc share session so I am good there. 

I hope I can get this sorted out. Otherwise using this is going to be a chore .


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. New plan. I am going to double check to see if the mouse and keyboard dongle will work in one of the front ports. Because that's where it was before and it was moving fine I think. The main issue is the wireless connection. I think, no matter what Jriver, even though it's a program on my machine does reach out to the web sometimes. I have a much bigger Asus dongle that I used with my old server that worked. It is still USB 3.0. But I did not realize that it may need drivers to function. When I plugged it in it did not work and I gave up. My friend said that if I gave him the model number, he could log into my machine and we could download the drivers and then I could use that one. It is a much bigger one so it should give me more range. So we will do some more experimenting tonight.


----------



## Selden Ball

Hopefully your friend has been consulting the MSI forums to find out if others have reported similar problems with that motherboard.

Not being able to update movie information suggests that JRiver can't access the various sites which provide that data. According to the JRiver Wiki, those sites include IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, theTVDB, and Wikipedia. See https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Automatic_Metadata_Lookup

Can you access those sites in the Web browser running on the media computer? If so, then the computer's networking is OK and you probably need to consult with JRiver about the problem. If not, then there's something wrong with the networking configuration of the computer.

General slowness suggests that unexpected programs might be interfering. Does the Task Manager show anything unexpected running?

Sometimes drivers can interfere with one another. You might try disabling the loading of drivers for motherboard devices that you aren't actually using, like the "sound card", bluetooth, etc. 

I assume you've run the Windows "troubleshooter". It's pretty rudimentary but sometimes can find things that otherwise might have been overlooked.

Of course, these are all generic suggestions. There might be an underlying problem source that's unique to your system.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> OK. New plan. I am going to double check to see if the mouse and keyboard dongle will work in one of the front ports. Because that's where it was before and it was moving fine I think. The main issue is the wireless connection.


Wireless networking can cause many problems. You should use a hard-wired Ethernet connection from the computer to your router and from there to the internet. Once you have it working reliably with an Ethernet connection, then you can try using WiFi. There are many potential causes of problems when using WiFi, including RFI from other devices, like motors, microwave ovens and cordless phones and from other networks in the neighborhood.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Hopefully your friend has been consulting the MSI forums to find out if others have reported similar problems with that motherboard.
> 
> Not being able to update movie information suggests that JRiver can't access the various sites which provide that data. According to the JRiver Wiki, those sites include IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, theTVDB, and Wikipedia. See https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Automatic_Metadata_Lookup
> 
> Can you access those sites in the Web browser running on the media computer? If so, then the computer's networking is OK and you probably need to consult with JRiver about the problem. If not, then there's something wrong with the networking configuration of the computer.
> 
> General slowness suggests that unexpected programs might be interfering. Does the Task Manager show anything unexpected running?
> 
> Sometimes drivers can interfere with one another. You might try disabling the loading of drivers for motherboard devices that you aren't actually using, like the "sound card", bluetooth, etc.
> 
> I assume you've run the Windows "troubleshooter". It's pretty rudimentary but sometimes can find things that otherwise might have been overlooked.
> 
> Of course, these are all generic suggestions. There might be an underlying problem source that's unique to your system.


Yea. he has been going through forums and such to try and figure this out. I can get to tvdb and sites like it. And I can get to the Jriver home page. We are going to do another remote session tonight so maybe he can look around at the settings then. No, I did not run the "troubleshooter" program. I will check the Jriver site to see if they have any insight as well.


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Wireless networking can cause many problems. *You should use a hard-wired Ethernet connection from the computer to your router and from there to the internet.* Once you have it working reliably with an Ethernet connection, then you can try using WiFi. There are many potential causes of problems when using WiFi, including RFI from other devices, like motors, microwave ovens and cordless phones and from other networks in the neighborhood.


That would be a hard thing for me to do. The rooms are not setup for me to run a hard-wire from one to the other easily. It would require drilling, crawling in the attic... etc. The wireless worked perfectly before so I know that the range is not to great. I am going to try and load the drivers for my old dongle, which is more powerful and see what that does. Also, if I read it correctly ASUS does supply USB 3.0 wireless dongles. Some are expensive, but I may give that a shot another "last resort".


----------



## Selden Ball

OK.

I realized just now that your previous question about network dongles were about wifi. We don't use such things where I work. The dongles we use are for hard-wired Ethernet for use with laptops that only have wireless and don't have an ethernet port.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Sorry if that wan't clear. I am trying my best to explain the issue but it is hard to explain with just a keyboard . I hope we can download the drivers for my current one to give that a shot. If not, then I do think I found at least one USB 3.0 dongle that I could try. It's not cheap but oh well. I am running out of options. I am also hoping that the keyboard\mouse one works in the front. I am going to try that again tonight as well.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Situation fixed. With my old server, I had a pretty good dongle(WIFI). My friend just bought a new one and though it would be fine. But it obviously was not. So, I downloaded the drivers that were need(FOR WIFI) and put my old dongle in the front port. The mouse and keyboard work like a charm now(That dongle is also in the front now). After I fixed some other issues, I am up and running. Now I need to check how Jriver behaves. Because in certain circumstances, it would freeze on me. I don't know if Jriver is constantly reaching out to the internet(or if was a mouse\keyboard issue), but I just wonder if a weak signal could have been causing my freezing issues. Now, everything regarding wifi and the keyboard\mouse are just like it was with my old server. The only other major change is now I am using Jriver MC21. I will probably try and check that out tonight. But so far I think I am good.


----------



## Selden Ball

Great! Best of luck with JRiver.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Hey Selden.
I think I figured out the issue. Before, when I was having issues I called Comcast, and one of solutions the gave me was to hard code an IP address into the settings instead of having it do DHCP. Another coworker said that could cause an issue. I wonder now, since I have better dongle, if I should go in and reset it to obtain IP address automatically? Can that be the issue? Because I will detail the issue clearer and what I did to try and fix it below.

No luck. But I think I am narrowing in on the issue. I will do my best to explain. I don't know if you work with Windows 7 boxes. But, in the system tray, there is that little computer. When you right click on it, it says "Open Network and Sharing Center" and it also says "Trouble shoot problems." When I just normally click on it it shows that I am connected to my Netgear19 router, and if I just hover over it, it also says that I am connected. When I right click on it and I select "Open Network and Sharing Center", It looks like I am getting all the way through because the diagram shows my home computer with a solid line to the router and then a solid line from the router to my media center. Before, I would some times get an "X" on that second line and was the issue. But now I get two solid lines. To me, that means my media center is getting a signal. But, I can't get on line. Then if I click on "Trouble shoot problems", well this is where I reach the limit of my knowledge. When it is finished whatever it is doing, it says there is a DNS error. Now I understand a little. The DNS takes the IP address and then converts it to www.cnn.com or something like that right? I bet if I did a NS lookup on a site, then typed in the IP address it would work. 

Back to the first paragraph. I think I have an IP address hard coded. I have to double check. IF I do, and change it back to to get obtain an IP address automatically and it still doesn't work, given the info above, do you have any other ideas? 
Thanks


----------



## Selden Ball

When you use DHCP, the DHCP server (the router in your case) provides a complete set of networking information to the DHCP client (whatever device is asking for an address: the media server, the pre/pro, your home computer, etc). Among other things, that set includes the client's IP address, its subnet mask, the IP address of the router itself (so the client can reach the outside world), the addresses of several different Domain Name Servers (so the client can specify the names of remote computers instead of having to specify their IP addresses), and quite a bit of other information, like the. addresses of time servers.

When you don't use DHCP and instead configure the network manually, you have to enter all of that information yourself. If you leave anything out, or get it wrong, then the system will have problems. If the troubleshooter is complaining about DNS, that suggests to me that you might not have provided the IP address of appropriate DNS servers. 8.8.8.8 (Google) and 209.244.0.3 (Level3) are reasonable ones to specify. Others would be the ones provided by your local Internet Service Provider.

ETA:
Intermittent DNS problems would suggest that the DNS server you've specified is overloaded or that the network route to it is highly congested so that it can't respond in a reasonable amount of time. You can get an idea of how busy the network is by opening a CMD window and typing the command
tracert 
e.g.
tracert 8.8.8.8

That command will list all of the routers that the packet has to go through to get to the DNS server and how much latency there is for each one.

ETAA:

I do use Win7 both at home and at work, so I'm reasonably familiar with it. The instructions I wrote above are generic and are appropriate for any Windows operating system. Linux systems use a different command for tracing the route to another address: the command is spelled out all the way as "traceroute".


----------



## MIkeDuke

So,
on my work computer it is setup like this(I am not using WIFI though)
Obtain an IP address automatically
and it has physical DNS numbers in that section below that. 
Then in the advanced section
In the IP settings it has DHCP Enabled
In the DNS tab it lists the two DNS numbers in that first section. 
For my media server, should both be set to the automatic section?
I think I have numbers in the DNS section at home, not the IP section.
The Comcast person told me to do that.
For my server, is it "better" if both are set to automatic?
EDIT
My friend says I should try the following
"First change DNS to automatic on media server. Then unplug the modem and unplug the router (power cable). Then wait 2 min. Then plug in the modem and wait for all the lights to come back on. Then plug in the router and try again." 
I tried doing the button on the back of the modem, but I never unplugged it. Plus I never unplugged the router. If that does not work then he said that he would try and remote in and look at some things. He also mentioned something called a* Power Line adapter*. He said that should work all the time since it basically connects both computers through my outlets, which are hardwired through my house. I may give them a try if all else fails.


----------



## Selden Ball

As your friend suggested, when using "automatic" (DHCP) it's probably best to set the DNS entries to automatic, too.

Power-cycling the equipment (unplugging from wall power for a minute or more) usually is the best way to ensure that "left-over crud" is erased from their internal RAM. When they power on, they'll get up-to-date settings. Too often the buttons don't really clear out everything.

A "power line adapter" can provide networking over the power lines in a house which can be more reliable than WiFi. The adapters do have to all be plugged into wall sockets which are on the same phase of power. Most residences receive two phases of power from the power company. Adapters plugged into one phase can't communicate with those plugged into the other phase. Using the two different phases of power for different items of A/V equipment is a common source of hum, too.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> As your friend suggested, when using "automatic" (DHCP) it's probably best to set the DNS entries to automatic, too.
> 
> Power-cycling the equipment (unplugging from wall power for a minute or more) usually is the best way to ensure that "left-over crud" is erased from their internal RAM. When they power on, they'll get up-to-date settings. Too often the buttons don't really clear out everything.
> 
> A "power line adapter" can provide networking over the power lines in a house which can be more reliable than WiFi. *The adapters do have to all be plugged into wall sockets which are on the same phase of power.* Most residences receive two phases of power from the power company. Adapters plugged into one phase can't communicate with those plugged into the other phase. Using the two different phases of power for different items of A/V equipment is a common source of hum, too.


I guess I have no way of knowing this. I think that most of the rooms near my theater are on the same circuit. I am hoping that just unplugging works. Thanks for the info on the power line adapters.


----------



## MIkeDuke

So I am at a loss. I have it set for automatic DHCP and it still does not work. I just don't get it. It (the server) refuses to resolve any DNS info. I think my last resort are those power line adapter things. I hope that does the trick because if they don't, then I am really confused and I will be totally clueless on what to do next.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> So I am at a loss. I have it set for automatic DHCP and it still does not work. I just don't get it. It (the server) refuses to resolve any DNS info. I think my last resort are those power line adapter things. I hope that does the trick because if they don't, then I am really confused and I will be totally clueless on what to do next.


From your description of the problem, I really don't think the network hardware connection is the cause. If you can get to the web sites from a browser running on the media server computer, then JRiver should be able to do so, too. The problem is more likely to be in JRiver's configuration or (less likely) in the firewall configuration on the media server computer. I can't help with JRiver, and only vaguely with the Windows firewall. (I use Comodo on my computer.)

The firewall could be blocking JRiver's network access. For example, on the "Network and Sharing Center" what type of network does it say your active network is? Home network, Work network or Public network? Public network is more restrictive.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> From your description of the problem, I really don't think the network hardware connection is the cause. If you can get to the web sites from a browser running on the media server computer, then JRiver should be able to do so, too. The problem is more likely to be in JRiver's configuration or (less likely) in the firewall configuration on the media server computer. I can't help with JRiver, and only vaguely with the Windows firewall. (I use Comodo on my computer.)
> 
> The firewall could be blocking JRiver's network access. For example, on the "Network and Sharing Center" what type of network does it say your active network is? Home network, Work network or Public network? Public network is more restrictive.


Hey Selden.
That's the thing. I can't go to any websites at all after I re-boot the computer. jirver.com, cnn.com, avsforum.com etc
I have to set and rest the router a number of times before it connects to the web. (I even did the physical unplugging of my power cords for my router and my Comcast internet box and it still did not work.) It worked last night. Then I shut it down and this morning it did not work. I think I am on a Home Network.
I can get on line from my server now because I did a lot of unplugging and plugging of stuff in order to do that.

But I am online now. I can be pretty sure that if I turn of the server and turn it back off again, I won't have DNS support even though the *Network and Sharing Center * section shows that I am connected to the internet. It is some funky DNS error that I am getting. I don't think it has anything to do with Jriver. I just don't know and I don't know if those other things will do the job. Unless there is something else I can do with the DNS. I also did a DNS flush and that did not work. So I am running out of ideas  .


----------



## Selden Ball

At this point, I'd suggest eliminating everything unnecessary. In other words, connect the computer directly to the cable modem, bypassing the router, temporarily running a long ethernet cable wherever it needs to go (or move the server to the ethernet modem). The network will have to be set to "automatic" in the media server for both address and dns. If that doesn't work, the problem is in the computer. If it does work, the problem is in the router or the wifi. Then connect directly to the router. If that doesn't work, the problem is in the router. If it does work, the problem is in the wifi connection, which could be due to the router's hardware.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I hear what you are saying and thanks for the advice. But I am somewhat disabled and there is no way I could do any of what you suggested. 
Would getting those other items sort of cut down on what you recommended above? Because those should give me a direct line from one computer to another right? The router worked fine with my other server. I know it's different hardware but I am still confused. The router is still good I think because I have another computer downstairs and it connects to the router with no issues. 

I don't suppose there is a check I can run in the media server to see if the problem is in there? Be it the wifi card or something else?
Thanks for the suggestions though. I just can't do them.


----------



## Selden Ball

Well, the tracert command would at least tell you if the server can get to the router. 

tracert 173.192.76.217
should list all of the routers that packets have to go through in order to reach www.avsforum.com
Try it first on you interactive computer to see what the media player *should* show.

That command is the same as
tracert www.avsforum.com
but should work whether or not nameservices are working. 

Another program to try (you'll have to download it) is wifiinfoview from NirSoft. It's free. For info about the program, see http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/wifi_information_view.html
The download link is way down at the bottom of the page, or you can use this link: http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/wifiinfoview.zip
It shows the quality of all of the WiFi networks that the computer can see.

Hopefully you've made sure that the WiFi dongle has a clear line-of-sight (through walls, presumably) to the WiFi router. Any intervening metal objects will cause problems.

Oh, something else just occurred to me: make absolutely certain that all of the ethernet interfaces are disabled in the media server. Having both ethernet and wifi enabled at the same time potentially can cause strange problems, depending on how they're configured.

ETA: also make sure that the dongle's wifi antenna is oriented so it points in the same direction as the wifi router's antenna(s). Both should be vertical or both should be horizontal and pointing north, for example. The actual direction doesn't matter, so long as they're the same. Having the antenna orientations the same maximizes the amplitude of the WiFi signals they see.


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## MIkeDuke

I did a tracert on my server (with the ip address ip you listed and with www.avsforum.com) and I had no dropped packets. It went through all the way
I can copy and paste what the result was, but I don't know if that matters plus I don't want to have any personal info listed here.
"Oh, something else just occurred to me: make absolutely certain that all of the ethernet interfaces are disabled in the media server"
How do I do that?
But again. I got no dropped packets when I did the tracert.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden,
There maybe a new clue. When I went into the Network and Sharing section, I noticed that it was trying to connect to something like an xfiniti network, instead of my router. And when I left clicked in the little on the internet square, that was on top and my router wasn't even being shown. Then we did some unplugging and plugging again and I saw my router. But when I tried to connect I got the following message

(The following popped up ON MY SERVER)

"*Windows has detected an IP address conflict. Another computer on this network has the same IP address as this computer. Contact your network administrator for help resolving this issue. More details are available in the Windows System event log."*

But after a few resets it worked and the house in that Network and sharing section showed my router name instead of the xfiniti name. So I think that is the issue. It's trying to connect to the xfiniti network, when it should be trying to connect to my router, even though my router comes up first on the list. Do you have any ideas how I can make sure it only goes to my router and no other network it sees?


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Selden,
> There maybe a new clue. When I went into the Network and Sharing section, I noticed that it was trying to connect to something like an xfiniti network, instead of my router. And when I left clicked in the little on the internet square, that was on top and my router wasn't even being shown. Then we did some unplugging and plugging again and I saw my router. But when I tried to connect I got the following message
> 
> (The following popped up ON MY SERVER)
> 
> "*Windows has detected an IP address conflict. Another computer on this network has the same IP address as this computer. Contact your network administrator for help resolving this issue. More details are available in the Windows System event log."*
> 
> But after a few resets it worked and the house in that Network and sharing section showed my router name instead of the xfiniti name. So I think that is the issue. It's trying to connect to the xfiniti network, when it should be trying to connect to my router, even though my router comes up first on the list. Do you have any ideas how I can make sure it only goes to my router and no other network it sees?


Your description tells me that your media server and other WiFi devices are seeing strong WiFi signals from more than one WiFi router and are trying to connect to the wrong WiFi network. It's hardly surprising that you're seeing problems. They're probably seeing at least one neighbor's WiFi network, maybe more than one, and none of the networks is using encryption. 

As I wrote previously, but now it's not optional, download wifiinfoview from NirSoft. It's free. For info about the program, see http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/wifi_information_view.html
The download link is way down at the bottom of the page, or you can use this link: http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/wifiinfoview.zip
wifiinfoview shows the quality, names, encryption and many other details about all of the WiFi networks that the computer can see.

First, you need to give your router a unique name (formally known as its SSID). You then need to turn on encryption in your WiFi Router, preferably WPA2 or stronger. You'll need to set a WPA password in the router and specify that password in each of the devices using your WiFi network. Doing so will ensure that nobody but you can connect to your router and/or monitor your network traffic. If you don't use encryption, *anybody* nearby can see exactly what you're doing on the network, and/or use your network for whatever they want. (Finding open networks to hack is known as "wardriving". People drive around looking for unencrypted WiFi networks that they can take advantage of.)

You also need to configure your computers so they try to connect only to your own WiFi Network. It's been a while since I switched from WiFi to Ethernet, so I don't remember all the details. See http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/view-preferred-wireless-networks#1TC=windows-7 and https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2526067 for instructions.

Edited to add:

One of the reasons for using the wifi monitoring program is to find out which wifi channels the other networks are using. In order to minimize interference you need to configure your wifi router to use a channel that none of the others are using, or that as few as possible are using.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden,
Those are good directions(in your last paragraph before your Edit), but your second link has two sets of directions. Can I follow either set or do I have to pick one or the other.
Thanks.


----------



## Selden Ball

You should do both.

The first procedure tells Windows which physical network to try first when you have several (Ethernet, Wireless, VLAN, etc). One of them will be "Wireless Network Connection". It might also show the motherboard's ethernet connection(s). If it does show several physical networks, click on (highlight) "Wireless Network Connection". Then move it to the top of the list by using the up/down arrows which are immediately to the right of the window containing the list of available network types.

The second procedure tells Windows the order in which it should attempt to connect to Wireless SSIDs when several are available. Highlight your own and move it to the top of the list. If there's another one in the house that you'd like to use whenever your own router is broken, move it to the second position.

However, when stepping through Microsoft's second procedure myself, I realized it should have an additional step added to it:

Delete any wireless networks from the list that you don't recognize. This will prevent Windows from trying to connect to them.

To do this, Right-mouse-button-click on any unknown network(s). In the (new) popup menu, select "Remove network".


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## MIkeDuke

OK Seleden. I will try that some of that stuff tonight. Hopefully taking out the other networks will make the issue go away. So I do both sets of links, including both sets of directions in the second link right.
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/view-preferred-wireless-networks#1TC=windows-7
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2526067

The first link looks like you just follow some short directions an that's it.
In the second link, they seem to list 2 different ways of doing the same thing? Do I do everything? Or just 
the stuff in the second link.
Oh, and I am secure. I am using WPA2 so I am good there.
Thanks


----------



## Selden Ball

Looking at them carefully, I think the first web page describes a simplified GUI which provides a simplified way to do what's described in the second section of the second web page (how to change the priorities of the wireless networks you want to connect to). That simplified GUI also shows less information about the various wireless networks.

The two sections of the second Web page are talking about two different things. 

The first section is about setting the priorities of the different types of network hardware connected to your computer (Wireless is only one of several different types of network hardware).

The second section is about setting the priorities of the different Wireless networks that your computer can access.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Looking at them carefully, I think the first web page describes a simplified GUI which provides a simplified way to do what's described in the second section of the second web page (how to change the priorities of the wireless networks you want to connect to). That simplified GUI also shows less information about the various wireless networks.
> 
> The two sections of the second Web page are talking about two different things.
> 
> The first section is about setting the priorities of the different types of network hardware connected to your computer (Wireless is only one of several different types of network hardware).
> 
> The second section is about setting the priorities of the different Wireless networks that your computer can access.


Got you. So since the two sections in the other link talk about separate things, I should do both. Can this be done if I am already connected my network? Or should I do these things while I am still having issues and the try to connect after I am done.


----------



## Selden Ball

If the computer's already connected to the correct network, changes shouldn't disrupt it. In principle, it should try to connect to the right one when you disable the wrong one. I'd reboot after making the changes, though, just to be thorough.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I can't get on line because of the error of connecting to the wrong network. In order to get connected, I have to do a number of resets on my cable modem. I guess I am asking if I have to be fully active on the network so I can get online, or can I do these changes without having to do that.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I can't get on line because of the error of connecting to the wrong network. In order to get connected, I have to do a number of resets on my cable modem. I guess I am asking if I have to be fully active on the network so I can get online, or can I do these changes without having to do that.


You should be able to change the settings anyhow.

If you can connect a local display, keyboard and mouse, your media server doesn't need to be connected to the network for you to change its networking settings. "Local" includes wireless keyboards and mice. They use their own proprietary protocols to talk to their dongles and don't use WiFi routing. Both the correct and incorrect Wifi network connections are remembered and will still be shown in the configuration menus.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Yea,
I can boot up the computer and do everything I would normally, except get on line. If I can make these changes without having to get my server online first, it will make my like a lot easier. Hopefully, when I make these changes, it will go to my network first, even if it sees other networks around. I can see those networks when I left click on the little computer in the system tray. I hope I can do this tonight.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Yea,
> I can boot up the computer and do everything I would normally, except get on line. If I can make these changes without having to get my server online first, it will make my like a lot easier. Hopefully, when I make these changes, it will go to my network first, even if it sees other networks around. I can see those networks when I left click on the little computer in the system tray. I hope I can do this tonight.


Yup it will use your network first if that's how you configure it. If you delete all of the spurious WiFi networks from the list, it shouldn't try to use them. I recall that being the case when I was using wireless, anyhow. There are something like 30 WiFi networks detectable in my neighborhood, most encrypted but some not. (I live in an apartment building with line-of-sight to several others.)


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK.
I will see if I can do that stuff. 








In this section, do I want it setup like that, with the IP4 on top?
And in this section








Move my network to the top(assuming I see it there)


----------



## Selden Ball

Here are those screens as shown on my computer, just to provide some real-world examples instead of their somewhat confusing generic examples.

Note that I have not enabled either file sharing or print sharing. You probably will want to enable file sharing, if only so you can access music and video files from other computers.

Edited to add: Yes, you'd use the up/down arrows to move your wireless network to the top.
You also should delete the "wrong" network entries. See the popup menu in my example.

Edited again to add: You don't have the option of changing the order of the IPV4 and IPV6 entries. You can only turn them on or off. If you want to do file sharing among your computers, you should check them all on all of your computers.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I am starting to get exhausted . I moved my network to the top. As you have it shown, I removed the other option that was in there called
xfiniti Then I finally found the other section. I only have ipv4 selected(That is also on top). It still did not work. I think I tried everything you suggested except un-checking everything like you have in your second image. I think I am really working you. Sorry for that. I will keep on trying things. But I am really stuck now. I really think I did everything you suggested. Are there any other tricks I can try?


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I am starting to get exhausted . I moved my network to the top. As you have it shown, I removed the other option that was in there called
> xfiniti Then I finally found the other section. I only have ipv4 selected(That is also on top). It still did not work. I think I tried everything you suggested except un-checking everything like you have in your second image. I think I am really working you. Sorry for that. I will keep on trying things. But I am really stuck now. I really think I did everything you suggested. Are there any other tricks I can try?



Here's another thing to try:

Left-mouse-button-click on the WiFi icon at the right end of the taskbar so it opens a popup menu listing all the available WiFi networks.
Scroll through the list of WiFi networks in the popup menu until you find yours.
Select it and click on its "Connect" button.
That should force the computer to use that WiFi network, at least for a while.

Does that work for you?


----------



## MIkeDuke

You know what Selden.
I give up. The machine won. I did try everything you have suggested(including what you said above)
and nothing is working. I am just going to bite the bullet and get that power line thing. I can't call Comcast 
again and figure out why I am having a DNS issue. I mean, I know I am getting a connection but the 
DNS is giving me a problem. I was told that I would have to call Comcast to try and fix the
box but I just can't do it. So I am going to buy that powerline stuff. People say that it 
just works and that's what I want. I may have to wait until the weekend though but that's
my plan. I can't go back and forth with settings. I do want to thank you though for your help.
This is NO reflection on you. You really did all you could to help me out but I am even having
dreams about this now (not being able to solve problems) so I need to get this fixed.
Thanks again


----------



## Selden Ball

Mike,

You're very welcome.

Best of luck!


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden,
I may have found another clue and I may be closer to finding an answer.
It may be a firmware issue on my router. Check out this story
http://dns.xfinity.com/index.php/entry/some-netgear-routers-causing-flood-of-dns-queries

It's possible that I am affected by that and a firmware upgrade will correct the issue.
That is the next thing I am going to try.


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## Selden Ball

Sounds reasonable!


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## MIkeDuke

Actually, the order we will do stuff is this:
Do the dongle first, in the back in a USB 2.0 port
if that does not work we will try the router. 
If that does not work we try a USB 3.0 dongle 
And if that does not work we go for the outlet stuff. 
One of those has got to work.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> One of those has got to work.


Now you've jinxed it!


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Now you've jinxed it!


No, I am due for some good luck. I can't believe fate would be so mean .


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## MIkeDuke

I think we got it but I will know for sure tonight. My friend did some research.
He found that there was an issue with my router and DNS flooding. He also found
out that there was a firmware upgrade to correct this issue. Well, I did the firmware
update and my internet came right on. No lag at all. So I am guessing that was it.
To be honest, I did not even know that you had to think about upgrading anything on
a router. Firmware would have been the last thing on my mind since it worked before
with my old computer. But the firmware seemed to have worked. Tonight will be the
real test. But I have a good feeling about it. Now if I could get my Jriver issue fixed
I will really be back to %100.


----------



## Selden Ball

Great!


----------



## MIkeDuke

And now the Jriver situation seems to be solved. That was being cause by a driver for my video card. It seems that new latest driver is known to have issues. Even Jriver says that if you are having the same exact issue I am having, you should go back one version. So that's what I did. And that worked. My friend naturally put the latest driver on there because that seems like the right thing to do. But that is what was causing the issue.
Now, I can scroll through my TV listings and music listings without it freezing. I did some really fast scrolling, just to make sure and it was fine. Before, it might freeze as soon as I touch the mouse. So know, I am back to %100. It's pretty interesting. I had to "upgrade" the firmware on my router and I had to "downgrade" the driver for my video card. But I have my fingers crossed that I am good to go.


----------



## Selden Ball

Yay!

I've gotten the impression that Nvidia isn't testing their graphics drivers as well as they used to.

I had to back off by two versions recently because the anti-aliasing code was creating sparklies


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## MIkeDuke

That's pretty bad I think. In reality, what does a "newer" driver do for a video card do? I mean, why update drivers like that. I guess I can understand the firmware thing with my router (I guess) but what's the point for upgrading a driver for video card. What am I missing by having an older driver.

Anyway, this weekend will be a nice test. It should all be smooth sailing now .


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> That's pretty bad I think. In reality, what does a "newer" driver do for a video card do? I mean, why update drivers like that. I guess I can understand the firmware thing with my router (I guess) but what's the point for upgrading a driver for video card. What am I missing by having an older driver.
> 
> Anyway, this weekend will be a nice test. It should all be smooth sailing now .


Nvidia driver updates usually are to fix subtle bugs in their support for specific games. Every once in a while they add a major feature (like CUDA, although that was a long time ago, now).


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Nvidia driver updates usually are to fix subtle bugs in their support for specific games. Every once in a while they add a major feature (like CUDA, although that was a long time ago, now).


But if I am not a gamer, and this will be used only for watching media and listening to music, I should not worry about driver updates? Especially if what I have is working now? I will worry about what I do if I upgrade my video card or mother board when (if) that time comes. I just wish there was 4k content I could play on my machine to see how it looks. I was told going through my TV(YouTube app) is the TV playing back the 4k content (duh Mike ). And I don't know if watching 4k youtube videos through my server does the trick. Or does it. Will watching a 4k video, in I.E on my server give me an accurate representation on how my machine will handle 4k?


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## Selden Ball

I think the ancient admonishment applies: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

i.e. only update if you know there's something new that you want or if it fixes a bug you're experiencing.

Of course, one should try to keep up with security patches, but they don't often affect graphics drivers.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I just wish there was 4k content I could play on my machine to see how it looks. I was told going through my TV(YouTube app) is the TV playing back the 4k content (duh Mike ). And I don't know if watching 4k youtube videos through my server does the trick. Or does it. Will watching a 4k video, in I.E on my server give me an accurate representation on how my machine will handle 4k?


Free and for-fee 4K downloads are listed in the first post of the thread http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...ailable-4k-hdr-titles-will-updated-often.html

I don't have a 4K display, so I can't provide any direct guidance.


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## MIkeDuke

I agree.
If it aint broke, don't fix it.
I will see if I can any of those sites to work,


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## MIkeDuke

I am just looking for conformation here. Since I have a 4k TV (albeit not with the latest standards) and I have a 4k capable preamp, I should be able to just get a new 4k BR player and be done right? I will be able to watch UHD 4k disks? I don't need a newer HDMI cable do I?


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I am just looking for conformation here. Since I have a 4k TV (albeit not with the latest standards) and I have a 4k capable preamp, I should be able to just get a new 4k BR player and be done right? I will be able to watch UHD 4k disks?


 Yes, although you'll have to wait for the pre/pro's next firmware update for the High Dynamic Range feature to work. The DTS:X firmware update includes support for HDMI v2.0a. The update is expected to be available early next month.


> I don't need a newer HDMI cable do I?


 Probably not, although that's not certain. The HDMI consortium had to define a new Premium cable spec since the "High Speed" certification turned out not to be stringent enough for 18GHz signals. As a result, some High Speed cables are good enough and some aren't.


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## MIkeDuke

My TV can't do the full mac daddy version of HDR as it is. At least I don't think it can. I can wait though. But even so, I will need an update to the Marantz to view any kind of HDR? Other wise it would just be 4k without HDR?


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> My TV can't do the full mac daddy version of HDR as it is. At least I don't think it can. I can wait though. But even so, I will need an update to the Marantz to view any kind of HDR? Other wise it would just be 4k without HDR?


Several people have reported actually getting HDR signals even without the firmware update, so you'll just have to try it to find out for sure. Sorry I can't be more definitive. FWIW, at the moment, the only available UHD discs are from Fox and don't even have Atmos soundtracks. Everybody's anxiously awaiting Sony's UHD titles, which are expected to be much better.


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Several people have reported actually getting HDR signals even without the firmware update, so you'll just have to try it to find out for sure. Sorry I can't be more definitive. FWIW, at the moment, the only available UHD discs are from Fox and don't even have Atmos soundtracks. Everybody's anxiously awaiting Sony's UHD titles, which are expected to be much better.


It looks like WB has a lot the pipe line but all of them may not have audio like Atmos. Some of those I already have and I really don't think I will be doing much double dipping on them. For me, it will be all new releases. I am really tempted though to get a 4k BR player so I can at least see what 4k is all about. But I guess I won't know if I am getting 4k with HDR or just 4k by itself. But again, I am in no hurry. I would like to wait until a few more movies are out besides The Martian (before I get a player). I will still buy them so I can build up a library though.


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## MIkeDuke

So last night I turn on my system and when I turn on my Marantz, what do I see, but and update message saying that DTS:X is now available for me to get. So I hit yes so I can get in now. About 30min later and a few auto reboots it was complete. I got no error message so I guess I have DTS:X on there as well. I can't test it of course to see if it is there but I am pretty sure I did everything right to get it loaded onto the machine. Who knows how many DTS:X disks we will really see. I would need an upgraded version of J River to play them back anyway. But it's cool that I have it on there now.


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## Selden Ball

That firmware update provides more than just DTS:X.

The firmware update includes Neural:X (the DTS proprietary upmixer), so now you can upmix DTS soundtracks. It should provide a slightly "better" quality of sound from Rear Surround speakers by removing some sounds from the Side Surrounds and sending them to the Rear Surround speakers instead. The DTS decoder itself "upmixes" 5.1 to 7.1 by simply copying the Surround channels to both Side Surround and Rear Surround speakers.

The firmware update also upgrades from HDMI v2.0 to HDMI v2.0a, which adds support for 4K video's High Dynamic Range feature.


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## MIkeDuke

Well,
that's some bonus stuff that I did not know about. I am still running 5.1 so I really did not need it since I can't use the upmixer or even run 7.1 natively. The upgrade to HDMI v2.0a is good for me since I have a 4k TV now. I just wanted to make sure I was up to date.


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## Selden Ball

A complete list of all the new features and bugfixes that are included in the firmware is available at http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...7702mkii-owner-s-thread-118.html#post42095993


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks.
It also looks like Samsung has an update for their UHD TV's that are 2015 models (like mine). 
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1441271852
I think it's supposed to up the HDR capabilities of these TV's a bit. I guess I should do that also? I don't know if I have the latest software. I found a little video that explains how to do it. It looks like it turns the HDMI 2.0 into a 2.0a just like on the Marantz. So I should do that as well right? I just hope it's a safe upgrade and doesn't break my TV.


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## witchdoctor

MIkeDuke said:


> I decided to post my system setup on this site as well. I have been into audio for about 12 years now. My system has changed a lot since then.
> As of now my system consists of the following:
> *Preamp*
> Marantz AV 7702 mkII
> 
> *EQ*
> Velodyne SMS-1
> 
> *Amps*
> Bryston 4b-ST,
> Bryston 5b-ST,
> 
> *TV*
> Samsung 55" 8500 series
> 
> *Player/source*
> OPPO 83,
> Custom built server(post 1258)/JRiver media software with 27.5TB of storage
> Sony PS3
> 
> *Speakers*
> JM Labs 1027Be,
> JM Labs CC1000be,
> JM Labs Chorus 705v,
> Seaton Sound SubMersive HP(*program 1*),
> 
> *Analog*
> Well Tempered Amadeus GTA turntable
> Dynavector XX2mkII cartridge
> Dynavector DV P-75mkII preamp
> 
> *Chairs*
> 2 Lazy Boy Leather Harbor Town recliners
> Crowson Technology TES 100 Tactile Motion System(for one chair)
> Buttkicker BKA 1000 Amplifier
> 
> *Power Protector*
> Audience aR6-TS
> HTPS7000
> 
> *Treatments*
> 2 GIK Tri-Traps.
> 2 GIK 242 bass traps
> 4 GIK 244 bass traps
> The room itself is quite small. It is (LxWxH) 12.5fx9.5fx8f. But I try to make the most of it. Let me know what you think.
> Rather then showing what the room used to look like, I will just show some more recent pictures.


I have that same Monster HTPS 7000 Power Conditioner and its been great. better SQ and saved my equipment on numerous occasions from brown outs and power surges. I like how you can see the voltage coming out of the wall and am surprised how much it fluctuates, not a steady 120V as you would expect. I am glad it corrects this so my equipment gets a steady 120V.


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## MIkeDuke

Witch,
my power used to really suck. I mean it was horrible. It would read as low as 112 in the past. Now it's a steady 120-121. But the power still sucks in my area. I lose power probably more than other people do. It can only do so much though. I did have a massive spike and at least one item that was plugged into it was fried. But that was an extreme case. A lot of people in my area lost power and had damaged goods with that one. I like it because it has enough outlets for me along with my other one.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Thanks.
> It also looks like Samsung has an update for their UHD TV's that are 2015 models (like mine).
> http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1441271852
> I think it's supposed to up the HDR capabilities of these TV's a bit. I guess I should do that also? I don't know if I have the latest software. I found a little video that explains how to do it. It looks like it turns the HDMI 2.0 into a 2.0a just like on the Marantz. So I should do that as well right? I just hope it's a safe upgrade and doesn't break my TV.


Well, since your 7702 updated OK, I think the TV's firmware update is likely to go OK, too. D+M equipment seems to be very sensitive to network problems. However, in general it's not a good idea to try to do a firmware update on the first day it's available, since their firmware servers are likely to be heavily overloaded. That sometimes causes problems.


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Well, since your 7702 updated OK, I think the TV's firmware update is likely to go OK, too. D+M equipment seems to be very sensitive to network problems. However, in general it's not a good idea to try to do a firmware update on the first day it's available, since their firmware servers are likely to be heavily overloaded. That sometimes causes problems.


I am not sure how long the Samsung update has been out. But hell, I might as well do it. I mean, my preamp now is updated. If I get my TV updated, I will be almost there for the best HDR playback I can get with my current system. Plus I am getting my TV calibrated so it would probably be wise to do this update first. 

Then all I need is an Ultra BR player and upgrade my server when the parts are available and I will be all set. Jriver can do 4k but I am not sure if it can do HDR playback. But I don't mind baby stepping this. I should update my TV as well right? If it get's me more HDR goodness, all the better I think.


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## Selden Ball

Yup. Updating the TV seems to be a good idea.

Waiting for a while before getting a 4K UHD disc player also seems to be a good idea. Some people seem to be struggling to get the Samsung 4K UHD player to work properly, while others are having no problems at all. It's had several firmware updates already, with (presumably) more on the way.


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## witchdoctor

MIkeDuke said:


> Witch,
> my power used to really suck. I mean it was horrible. It would read as low as 112 in the past. Now it's a steady 120-121. But the power still sucks in my area. I lose power probably more than other people do. It can only do so much though. I did have a massive spike and at least one item that was plugged into it was fried. But that was an extreme case. A lot of people in my area lost power and had damaged goods with that one. I like it because it has enough outlets for me along with my other one.


FWIW the 7000 has replaceable fuses which you can find on the back. Once my toddler cranked up the volume to "11" on my processor and if the fuse didn't save me by blowing on the 7000 my speakers would have blown. I replaced the fuses with a HiFi tuning fuse and it made an improvement in SQ. YMMV but you may want to try it.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/hifi-tuning-fuse-follow-may-2012


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Yup. Updating the TV seems to be a good idea.
> 
> Waiting for a while before getting a 4K UHD disc player also seems to be a good idea. Some people seem to be struggling to get the Samsung 4K UHD player to work properly, while others are having no problems at all. It's had several firmware updates already, with (presumably) more on the way.


I think I am safe upgrading the TV. Craig has also told me that there have been issues with the Samsung player. I think my plan is to just buy the combo films I don't have but I am interested in, so at least I can have a small library when I do get a player. I hope other companies release some as well that are not too expensive. Getting ready though is fun. Even with a 5.1 system. At least now my video matches my audio. With 4k, it will match it for sure.


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## MIkeDuke

So I did the TV upgrade thing. It said that there were no new upgrades. So I guess I have all the HDR goodness my TV can handle right now. I also guess that means that my HDMI inputs are 2.0a? If so, that's a good thing as well. The update had a number like 1442 or something in that neighborhood. There is probably no easy way to tell if they are 2.0a. But, since there was no update, I assume that I am good. Maybe it did it automatically? It may be set to auto update. I need to check that again. If it was, would it do it without telling me it's doing it. This is probably a question to ask in the Samsung thread but what the hell, I might as well ask it here first .


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## Selden Ball

Sorry, I dunno.


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Sorry, I dunno.


 No worries. If I am that interested in it, I will just go to the dedicated thread for my TV and ask there.


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## MIkeDuke

Craig and his friend Ryan came over to calibrated my audio and video. This won't be a full review yet because I haven't had any time with the system but I can say already that both audio and video are better then they were when I started the day. Ryan, basically said this calibration turned out better then he thought and it's one of the best pictures he has ever seen. I hope Craig can stop in here as well. I think he can talk about the video but again, he worked his magic on the audio. As I suspected, the store calibration was not up to snuff. Now it sounds the way it should. Maybe Craig will pop in and give some thoughts but I can say that my system is once again, about as good as I can get it with the equipment I have.


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Craig and his friend Ryan came over to calibrated my audio and video. This won't be a full review yet because I haven't had any time with the system but I can say already that both audio and video are better then they were when I started the day. Ryan, basically said this calibration turned out better then he thought and it's one of the best pictures he has ever seen. I hope Craig can stop in here as well. I think he can talk about the video but again, he worked his magic on the audio. As I suspected, the store calibration was not up to snuff. Now it sounds the way it should. Maybe Craig will pop in and give some thoughts but I can say that my system is once again, about as good as I can get it with the equipment I have.


Mike,

I can make a few comments about what I saw and heard, but ultimately *your own* impressions will be the final arbiter of whether the changes we made this weekend were beneficial or not. 

I can say this:

The Art of Flight looked very good before Ryan's video calibration. After Ryan's video calibration, The Art of Flight looked better than I have EVER seen it on any other video display system... and I have seen it on a number of systems. It's one of my "go-to" demo scenes, so I've watched it on a number of different systems. It looked absolutely spectacular on your TV after Ryan's calibration... ABSOLUTELY SPECTACULAR!!! The whites of the snow were stunning with great definition, detail and sharpness, and incredible brightness, and "whiteness" of the snow but without blooming or over-saturated whites. In addition, the multiple colors of the helicopter and the jackets of the snowboarders were so vivid and vibrant that they actually looked "real." The 3-dimesnionality of the image was astonishing, even though it wasn't being viewed in 3D. 

The other content we watched was equally impressive to me. Blacks were deep with great shadow details. Every image was incredibly smooth, with no edge ringing or visible pixelization or video noise. Samsara in particular looked phenomenal. The in-scene contrast and the shadow detail in dark areas of bright scenes was most remarkable. Colors absolutely POPPED off the screen. Bottom line for me... Ryan's calibration took a very good display and made it SPECTACULAR. 

The sound, OTOH, I thought was "off" the first time we watched AoF, before redoing the calibration. The surrounds were too hot, (and I even mentioned this multiple times.) The front soundstage was not "cohesive" and discreet sounds were hard to place within the soundstage. And the bass was weak and indistinct. However, after the new Audyssey run, I thought it sounded MUCH better, with an improved front soundstage, and a much more appropriate surround presentation. In addition, the bass was much more solid and articulate, with much more tactile "feel" and pressurization, Of course, this was after we turned on DEQ, so it's really not a fair comparison.

Overall, I thought the day was an overwhelming success, with significant improvements in both the video and the audio. However, I had limited exposure to your system both before and after the calibrations, so your more extensive pre/post impressions will be most telling. What do YOU think?

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Craig, you were typing as I was finishing this up so if you want read this and comment on what I just wrote, please do. First, again let me thank you for the very kind words about my system. It really means a lot coming from you where you have such a SOTA system concerning audio and video. So thanks again .
Report 1a with maybe more to come.
So I think I am able to make some statements now on the new calibrations on the video and audio.
Video first (I will just say that the calibration part was very interesting to watch and I won't go into any detail because it would make this post 3x as long.) But now it looks spectacular. 

We watched clips from X-Men Origins, Insane. We also watched the beginning of Gravity, literally out of this world.
Plus maybe a few others including what Craig listed above. 

The first movie I watched was Ronin. I really like that movie a lot. I have probably watched it 10 times (not kidding). So I know it pretty well. For the most part it was stunning. There was clarity that was there that was brand new to me. And I did watch this movie with my 55in pre calibration. As an ex, during the final chase scene, when the Deniro is chasing the other car, I could finally make out what kind of car it was. I knew the bad guys were driving a BMW M5 but it's something that I just knew. Now, for about one half of a second you can see the back of the car and for the first time I saw the tiny "M" on the back of the car clearly. It was pretty cool. Now all was not good with this disk. I noticed what I would call a red push. It made certain parts look over saturated. But for most of the film, it looked incredible. Faces looked great. There was so much detail just popping off the screen. Peoples faces looked great. Even the clothes looked vibrant. Then, just for goofs I looked up a review of the BR movie and what did I see, but reviewer(s) complaining that the video transfer was poor. They said almost what I said. 

But as a whole the movie looked great. Then I was able to watch about one hour of Oblivion. Holy Crap. That looked amazing. Again, detail everywhere. Whether it was a close face shot or landscapes. Plus the blacks looked really good. Along with the other colors. Just everything looked really good. I can't wait to watch more movies. I will end the video part by saying even TV shows look much better and clearer. All in all I am very happy with how the calibration turned out. 

Now the audio. Craig once again did his thing. He brought his gear and did some measuring. As I alluded to above, the store calibration was very poor. Craig broke out his stand and computer and started doing some tests. Then he played with the crossovers, and distances measurements and level controls in the Marantz and maybe even on the sub. After trial and error the results were spectacular. I tend to listen at a low level. So Craig activated something in the Marantz to compensate for that. But even so, now, I can turn the MV way up more then I could ever before. I am talking about up to -12 and louder. And it sounds clean. I need to watch more movies though and see what happens. I can't wait to watch a movie like EOT or WOTW or The Martian or any others that I know have really low bass. But I am still in shock that I can turn up my volume so much without any issue and have it sound so good. Maybe it's a combo of the Marantz and Craig getting better each time he works on my system. But I have never been able to turn it up to that level before. Ever. So I am very happy with the audio as well. If I get a chance to watch some more BR movies I will report back on what my feelings are. 

Going to 2ch music, again, my jaw hit the floor. I could not believe how great everything sounded. I mean, I thought it was fantastic before but now it's a whole other level. The center stage is right on point. Instruments sound great and you can pick apart each one in each speaker. Nothing sounds fake. Music sounds better now then it did before. I am very am very impressed. It's probably the best I could have hoped for. 

So all in all my system turned out great. *I want to thank Ryan and Craig again for doing such a great job.* 
P.S If anybody in here is looking for a new flat panel TV, I know the new Vizio TV's just came out, but you should also check out the new Samsung. If they are better than what I am seeing now, the picture must be out of this world. But I am very happy with my TV and I can't wait to get some real 4k content on it.


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## MIkeDuke

As a P.S, I hope Ryan can send me the report and charts that were generated from his calibration. As I said it was incredibly detailed and I was so impressed with how he used his calibration machine to figure out what had to be done. Hopefully I can figure out a way to upload some of what his results were. I think even he was surprised at the results we achieved.


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## MIkeDuke

I am really lazy today so just a short update. I started to watch Terminator G. Wow was that that loud. And the sub+Crowson combo was killer. But I could not finish it so I watched Hanna. Again, killer video and sound. I could not put it up to -12 (still don't know how I am able to do that), but it sounded really good. Not just the loud stuff but the details as well. Very impressed with audio. Plus the video was just spectacular. Parts that were bright parts that were dark parts that had mainly one color or parts that had many all looked really great. So I am very happy. Maybe a more detailed followup if I get a chance to watch Interstellar. But so far, I am still very impressed.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I could not put it up to -12 (still don't know how I am able to do that), but it sounded really good.


 Do you mean that when you turn the volume control up, approaching -12dB, that it's just too loud for you? That's what many people report. Personally I listen to most movies at a volume control setting of about -25 and music CDs at about -35 or even lower.


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Do you mean that when you turn the volume control up, approaching -12dB, that it's just too loud for you? That's what many people report. Personally I listen to most movies at a volume control setting of about -25 and music CDs at about -35 or even lower.


Yes. That's what I mean, before this calibration. It's not that it was too loud... Well, it kind of was . But it was more fear that I would blow something up. In Craig's room, which is obviously not a fair comparison, we listened at -5 and I was fine. It was loud but fun at the same time. Plus, it did not hurt. I even think on Sun we went to -9 on the Art of Flight clip. It just that before this calibration, I was probably comfortable at around -17 to -20. Now I can still listen at that level with no issues and have fun when watching movies. But, I never felt "comfortable" going much higher. Now that I can go to -15 to -12 it's a newer sensation. But it's still comfortable. For ex, I did the beginning of Terminator G. I had it at -14 maybe? I don't remember. Maybe even louder. But when I played the beginning of the movie, it was loud but it sounded great. I was never able to put my level that high before. Hanna at -14 was really great. So that's what I mean. I feel that I can go louder and still be safe and enjoy the movie.
P.S I guess another way of putting is it that before this latest calibration, I thought -20 to -17 was "loud" enough. Now I feel that I can go higher with no problem and reach my enough level at a level like -14. We shall see where I end up. I haven't watched too many movies yet to get a base line. I just know that it's a higher number than it was before.


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## Selden Ball

In a "well treated" room one can (must) turn up the volume level significantly higher than in untreated rooms. This is because in a room with a significant number of sound absorbers, reflections are at a much lower sound level, so that the aggregate sound level at the main listening position is much lower than in a room with more hard, reflective surfaces. This might explain your experience. My room has essentially no absorbers, just diffusers (books on bookshelves), so a relatively low volume setting is appropriate.

ETA: I don't recall if you had done an Audyssey calibration before Craig did it. In general, the uncalibrated volume control setting depends on many different factors, most of which are irrelevant after calibration.


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## MIkeDuke

I would consider my room "well treated" I have a total of 8 bass traps of different shapes and thickness. No diffusion. The treatments were one of the biggest upgrades I ever did in my room. Going from a bare room to a treated room was a revelation. So I have had it treated for some time now and Craig has calibrated my room with the treatments many times now . It's just this time I feel comfortable, physically and mentally about turning up the level. As a matter of fact, I sort of have to to turn it up to a level that makes it "fun" watching a movie. Again, I don't know what was different this time around. Maybe we had less ambient noise so the calibration was more accurate. Who knows. All I know is that I love how it sounds now. Craig also re-positioned my L\R speakers so now music sounds the way it should. The guy who set up the Marantz was not that good at setting up a room. But whatever happened, I am a happy camper now.


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> I would consider my room "well treated" I have a total of 8 bass traps of different shapes and thickness. No diffusion. The treatments were one of the biggest upgrades I ever did in my room. Going from a bare room to a treated room was a revelation. So I have had it treated for some time now and Craig has calibrated my room with the treatments many times now . It's just this time I feel comfortable, physically and mentally about turning up the level. As a matter of fact, I sort of have to to turn it up to a level that makes it "fun" watching a movie. Again, I don't know what was different this time around. Maybe we had less ambient noise so the calibration was more accurate. Who knows. All I know is that I love how it sounds now. Craig also re-positioned my L\R speakers so now music sounds the way it should. The guy who set up the Marantz was not that good at setting up a room. But whatever happened, I am a happy camper now.


I'm a little confused about what you're reporting here Mike. I'm not sure why you would be more comfortable at a higher MVC setting. I really doubt your system has more headroom now than it had before with your Integra. However, it could just be that the Marantz Audyssey mic is at the opposite end of the calibration curve from the Integra mic. This would make a higher MVC setting on the Marantz an equally loud setting as a lower MVC setting on the Integra. This would just be a calibration difference of the MVC with a different mic. 

Or, are you saying that at -12, it now sounds louder than it did at -12 on the previous calibration? If so, that is likely because we turned on DEQ. DEQ adds some boost to the lower frequencies, which will make the overall volume seem higher. This would make perfect sense and explain the phenomenon you're reporting, including the fact that the Crowson has improved output. 

Or, are you saying that the volume at -12 is the same as it used to be, but you can now go to -9 and your system still sounds like it has more headroom than it had before? I don't believe your system has more headroom now than it did before. I fact, I don't think your system is at maximum headroom at -9 MVC. When we watched AoF at -9, I didn't hear any strain or distortion. I would expect that you could go to -5 or -3 and still not hear any distortion. Of course, that would be VERY loud in your room, but I would expect that your system could handle it. If you want to try this, I suggest you turn the Buttkicker amp down a notch or 2 to protect the Crowson, but your speakers and amps should certainly handle it.

In any event, it sounds like you LIKE the new calibration.  That's really all that matters. 

Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

You know me Craig, sometimes I can be confusing. I will try to explain again. Before, with the Integra, if I turned the MV to -20, -19, -18, the vocals would be loud and I would not need to turn it up any more. I could if I wanted to but I did not have to. This is with movies. If I went above that level, it became what I thought was EXTREMELY loud. I mean it was beyond what I could handle and I was concerned about the Crowson. 

I can't tell you if -12 is louder on the Marantz as compared to the Integra because I could never turn it up that loud on the Integra before. Now, with the Marantz, in order for me to get the same feeling or perceived loudness I have to turn the Marantz up more. But the fact that I can do that is very different then with the Integra. TBH, I was afraid to do that with the Integra but now, at least for the few films I have watched, I need to do that for me to get to the same place I felt I was with the Integra. -18 or -17, which seemed loud before, do not seem loud now. So I have to turn up the MV more to get back to what I was used to. With movies I know the Crowson is on but TV, not as much. In Oblivion it was doing it's thing and in Hanna it was also doing it's thing. But I had the ability to turn the MV up way more then I could before. I don't understand it. Did you pay attention to how loud you had Art of Flight? I did. It was about -10 or even -9. There is no way in hell I could have done that before. 

I know it sounds like I am crazy and maybe I am. But I am telling you. I did not go that high before, 

Now, I will admit that it's a _possibility_ that I could have done this before (with the old cal) and I was just to scared to do it on my own. That is a possibility. But it would have been way louder

But the system sounds so damn clean now that I no longer have that fear. On certain parts I may be careful so I don't fry the Crowson. But -14 and -15 did not fry it with Hanna (I kept it there because of that sound track) or Oblivion. Or that intro to T:G. But since I am going louder now, I may trim back the Crowson level just a bit. 

So I really don't know. All I know is this is THE BEST it has ever sounded. I can't imagine what a pro cal would do. Plus, again, please tell Ryan that my jaw is still on the floor. I haven't been able to reach him through email.

I wish I had the words to explain what I am experiencing, But that's the best I could do. Sorry if it's still word salad .


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## Selden Ball

FWIW, I've read claims that audio systems with low distortion often can be played comfortably at higher sound levels than systems which have more distortion.


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## craig john

Selden Ball said:


> FWIW, I've read claims that audio systems with low distortion often can be played comfortably at higher sound levels than systems which have more distortion.


I agree Selden, but I doubt there is a significant difference in distortion levels between the Integra and the Marantz, especially at the levels Mike is using. I really think the difference Mike is hearing are related to the calibrated level differences, which are related to differences in the calibration mics. The other confounding variable is the fact that we engaged DEQ, which can make the overall presentation seem louder. 

Either way, Mike *likes* the new calibration and that's really all that matters. 

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

craig john said:


> I agree Selden, but I doubt there is a significant difference in distortion levels between the Integra and the Marantz, especially at the levels Mike is using. I really think the difference Mike is hearing are related to the calibrated level differences, which are related to differences in the calibration mics. The other confounding variable is the fact that we engaged DEQ, which can make the overall presentation seem louder.
> 
> Either way, Mike *likes* the new calibration and that's really all that matters.
> 
> Craig


So Craig,
Are you saying that even though both the Integra 80.3 and my new Marantz 7702mkII both use Audyssey XT32 and use a mic, _that to me look the same_, that they are really different mic's? And that is enough to make such a perceived difference to me? I know I am not imagining things. I can easily turn up the level much more and be comfortable now as compared to the Integra. And you are right that using DEQ (I need to look up what that does again) may have an effect as well. Is that something we just turned on or did we set it to a certain number. I never used it prior to you coming over. And I think you don't like it or use it. 

I still plan on being careful though with certain movies. For instance, I forget if we tested the into to EOT but I doubt I would be brave enough to put it -12 in the beginning of the film. Or that one part in Tron that is really rough on subs. And I don't like the new calibration, *I freaking love it*. I just have to get used to the new levels I am able to achieve. But because I "have" to turn up the MV more now to get the same perceived levels I had before, I may lower the Crowson amp just a bit to be on the safe side. I probably don't have to, but it would make me more comfortable. I can't wait to try out more movies . Thanks again Craig. You really helped me out again.


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## Selden Ball

Mike,

Audyssey (the company) allows a +/- 2dB variation in the sensitivity of their microphones. The "Eiffel Tower" Audyssey calibration microphones are all identical in design and interchangeable, but variations in their components can result in different sensitivities. If you calibrate with a microphone that's at the more sensitive end of the range , the result will cause the system to play quieter for a given volume control setting. That might be what's happened for you. 

Some people use external test tones and a sound level meter to do the final sound level adjustments. Others just adjust the volume control to get the sound levels they want  

Also, although there's a "reference" level for movie soundtracks, many directors have their own preferences for how loud they want their movies to be heard. Some are quite extreme.


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Mike,
> 
> Audyssey (the company) allows a +/- 2dB variation in the sensitivity of their microphones. The "Eiffel Tower" Audyssey calibration microphones are all identical in design and interchangeable, but variations in their components can result in different sensitivities. If you calibrate with a microphone that's at the more sensitive end of the range , the result will cause the system to play quieter for a given volume control setting. That might be what's happened for you.
> 
> Some people use external test tones and a sound level meter to do the final sound level adjustments. Others just adjust the volume control to get the sound levels they want
> 
> *Also, although there's a "reference" level for movie soundtracks, many directors have their own preferences for how loud they want their movies to be heard. Some are quite extreme. *


So the mic may have been a little different when compared to the mic I had with the Integra and that's why I am having this difference? I will say that without a doubt Craig's use of the mic and setup was much more complete then what I got from the store. I do wish that there was a standard that all directors had to follow for loudness so we don't get clipped soundtracks that sound bad. If we (the consumer) want it louder, we will just turn it up more. But directors should follow a standard for audio. I could talk all day about that but I don't want to get aggravated. Thanks for the info on the mics. That may have been the difference.


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## craig john

Sheldon is absolutely correct, (as usual). In fact, there are variations that are probably even larger than what can be ascribed just to the mics. Different implementations of Audyssey by different manufacturers can also cause variations in the Audyssey results. Forum member @Archaea has measured the variability and found it to be significant:










http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...-between-two-audyssey-multi-eq-xt32-mics.html

He also did a much more extensive test of several technology's methods of determining "Reference Level." He measured Audyssey, Anthem ARC, Yamaha YPAO, Dirac, Trinnov and Pioneer MCACC: 
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...vember-8-2014-kansas-city-7.html#post28900602
In that study he found as much as 10 dB or more of variation between the settings for "Reference Level" between the various technologies... which means Reference Level isn't really a true "reference" after all! 

Bottom line, it's important to realize "auto" room correction should never be taken at face value, no matter which system is being used. These systems are all generic solutions attempting to correct very specific problems related to the unique acoustics of any given room. Sometimes they do a stellar job... other times, not so much. It's always important to measure the post-RC results and make any changes necessary to optimize the results. More importantly, it is critical to give all these systems the optimal "starting point" so that they have less correction to do. Less manipulation of the input signal ALWAYS means a better result.

In your system, you've optimized your room acoustics with very precise acoustic treatments. In addition you've optimized the subwoofer prior to running Audyssey by adding a big EQ cut to the primary peak in your system at ~40 Hz. This makes Audyssey's job much easier, and the final result more optimal. You're now enjoying the fruits of those labors. 

Craig


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## Archaea

Yes, that blind AVR auto room EQ test was probably my favorite audio test I've ever participated in. It killed a bunch of audio myths that are propogated regularly on AVS about sound quality of x, prepro necessity, fancy amp necessity, reference, and all of that. 

For those who don't take the time to read the link Craig posted above at least look at this the summarized quote and ascertain where the state of this hobby is - even as recently as end of Feb 2014


Here are the processor and Auto EQ options we tested
•AccuEQ - Onkyo TX-NR636
•ARC - Anthem 510
•Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 - Denon 4520CI (flagship)
•Dirac - miniDSP nanoAVR DL w/ Dirac functionality
•MCACC - Pioneer Elite SC-67
•Trinnov - Sherwood Newcastle R972 (flagship)
•YPAO - Yamaha CX-A5000 pre/pro (flagship)
•Control setup/no EQ - Onkyo PR-SC5508 (flagship)




Archaea said:


> *The Means*
> Stitch1 loaned his drum stand setup to be used for mic positions. The main starting position was the same for every setup, the additional settings were typically similar for the setups with the exception of the setups that had unique microphones or specific placement requirements (like Anthem). The following pictures give you an idea of how the room was setup, and how the mic positions were used. The high hat cymbal stands were used as the static mic positions. This setup was inspired by the idea of trying to keep the processor input data the same for each - so as to eliminate as many variables as possible between processor setup strategies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the mic positions circled. If a unit used more than 5 positions - then we'd recycle the positions in the middle row. Different processors had varied amounts of positions measured. The Yamaha required 11 positions - the Denon eight, etc. The mic positions may not look evenly placed in the picture due to camera angles - but they were evenly spaced and also in symmetry and balance to the front screen. The position 4 on this diagram was actually a camera tripod we stood up in the front middle seat at ear level. We started every measurement in position 1. Middle Seat, Middle Row, Directly in front of the center channel. Some processors only took measurements from one position, in that case 1 was it. (AccuEQ & Trinnov)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Madness*
> So what's the deal? Why was it madness?
> Well - here are the post calibration frequency responses from each entry. No funny business, just absurdity. The helpers and I set the mic in the same standardized positions for each system (unless specific places were actually required, IE Anthem, DIRAC, Yamaha) and the starting position for the initial calibration was the exact same spot for every processor. Stitch1 loaned a drum kit with a bunch of high hat stands (used as mic stands) - to ensure our mic capture positions weren't different from processor to processor. In theory, after calibration each processor should be close to the same SPL at least, and close to a similar flatter frequency plot, RIGHT?? I mean that's the point of these systems, RIGHT? The goal of the Auto EQ routine is to get the AVRs to a standardized reference volume and try to flatten frequency response while doing so, in order that each user's system regardless to different rooms and different speaker setups has a similar, cinematic audio experience!!!
> 
> Well, with eight different systems here is what was captured by omnimic for each as post calibration results. We followed instructions to let each auto processor optimize the room. The ONLY change we allowed post calibration was setting speakers to small and crossover to 80hz when the processor/AVR allowed. To capture the post calibration frequency response plots shown here I simply turned each AVR to -12dB on the main volume knob and played track 2 of the omnimic disk from the HTPC to the processor. The results were ridiculous. But that is the tested state of variance in these processors.





Even then if I manually attempt to level match everything to a 1Khz test tone - there is still a great deal of variance in all of these AutoEQ programs. Remember that 6dB is a doubling of volume, and there are 6dB variances or more all over the frequency response. Take this knowledge with the testing of my own Audyssey mics on the Denon 4520CI and the Onkyo 5508, which varied by as much as 5dB (which is within the +/- 2.5dB spec for the mics) and you can see how a consumer setting up *Reference* is not what people think it is in relation to the next consumer *Reference* setup. (look at the dB offset change (in the names of this chart) that had to be applied to each FR to get the 1Khz matching point)


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## MIkeDuke

First, glad to see you post in my thread Archaea 
Thanks guys. I simply can not believe that though. What's the point of calibrating to reference when it looks like each one of those systems gave a different result? What is the base line we are all shooting for then? I mean, if XT32 is XT32, then why is it implemented differently in one preamp as opposed to another? It makes no logical sense to me. If that is the the case then how can anybody be sure that TRUHD or DTS-MA or Atmos is being played the same way out of every preamp or receiver that may have them.

This goes to another one of my issues with how movies are mixed and the wide variance between soundtrack mixes. Maybe you can't constrain the directors intent, but there should be some sort of standard about how things should be mixed. Just so we don't get "messed" up soundtracks that everyone complains about. Your point about Reference Level is something I have been internally talking about for a long time.

But back to this calibration, again, I just found it odd that a preamp that is using the same room eq as the preamp I am replacing, can make such a big difference, BUT not only that, the fact that a new EQ setup WITH THE SAME eq, done by someone else can have as great an impact as it did. I mean, I could tell that the guy from the store did the best he could but I could tell that it was not up to the standards that I was used to. Don't get me wrong, it sounded good but when Craig got done with his calibration, using the same mic and XT32 I could not believe the difference.

So thanks again guys for chiming in. Craig, thanks again for making my system sound the best it could. Yes, I think I have nice gear and that I treated it well, but without your calibration (and Ryan's for video) it would not have reached its potential.
Edit:
So what about the pro cal set from Audyssey. That is supposed to have a better mic then the standard one right? Is there any reason think that that would "better"? I mean, that would an another variable to this complex situation wouldn't it? Again, I am glad Craig doesn't mind helping me out with this stuff when I need it.


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## craig john

Thanks for the kind words Mike, and I'm really glad you're enjoying the new calibration. While the level differences you are experiencing are probably explained by the differences in the Audyssey mics, (which as Selden pointed out are batch-calibrated to a +/- 2 dB tolerance, and which can result in as much as 4 dB differences in absolute level settings), and possibly some XT32 implementation differences between Integra and Marantz, I think the sound "quality" differences you are hearing are primarily related to the fact that we engaged DEQ. 

DEQ changes the entire balance of the sound at levels below Reference Level. I sent you this graph in an e-mail, but here it is again:










At the levels you are using, you are probably listening to the purple or pink traces. You can see how much boost that adds to the bass and also to the treble. If you remember when we first turned on DEQ how much fuller the sound immediately got. I expect that this is why you are enjoying the new calibration more than what the store guy did. He turned DEQ off after he ran Audyssey. Re-engaging it is what really improved the sound quality.

For anyone reading along who would like a more thorough description of DEQ, I wrote a post explaining it in detail, with measurements, here:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...up-want-my-subwoofer-so-low.html#post24805816

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks again Craig. Again, I think if I am not mistaken, even though we turned it on for me (the DEQ), you like it off right? I was able to watch the directors cut of The Professional. It sounded great. But what's interesting, I did not feel the need to turn up the level like the last few films I watched. I ended up at a low -18. It sounded really good and unlike other recent movies, I did not feel the "need" to turn it louder. Clearly I need to watch more movies but if I wanted to, I probably could have turned it up much louder than that. But I did not have to. This is the best calibration Craig has done. I may need to play with the Crowson just a bit more. I may have it just a smidge too low but I will watch a few more movies at maybe more spirited levels before I commit to a change. We shall see.


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## craig john

I have had DEQ engaged ever since I've had a pre/pro with DEQ. I *like* what it does, although it does less for me than for may users because I listen closer to Reference Level than many users.


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## MIkeDuke

craig john said:


> I have had DEQ engaged ever since I've had a pre/pro with DEQ. I *like* what it does, although it does less for me than for may users because I listen closer to Reference Level than many users.


Then it must have been something else that I thought I remember you saying you did not like having on. Anyway, DEQ seems to be working for me. So far every movie, even the older ones have sounded great. Last night I watched the directors cut of Leon: The Professional. Wow did that sound really good. I turned the crowson down before and I then edged it up a bit. It was working with this film. I can probably turn it up more ( the Crowson). What's interesting is the movie sounded incredibly clean, but did not feel the need to go beyond -18, I know, I am wimp . But the dialog was clear and loud enough. Also, the effects were quite good. I still need to watch some real bass monsters and see what happens. It looked like before that the level was really high and I was afraid that since I can go higher on the MV, that I would blow up the Crowson again. That's why I lowered it. But as I said, I now have raised it up a bit more. Not to where it was, but still more than my first adjustment.

Here is thing. Am I better leaving the Butt Kicker level where it is and just turn the MV up more. Or, do I turn the Butt Kicker amp up a bit more and just be more careful with the MV. Ideas and thoughts are welcome.

Plus, I have to admit that with the review Ralph just gave The Force Awakens, I am having a hard time holding off waiting to see if they bring out a 4k version. I for one really liked the movie and I don't want to wait, but I also don't want to double dip. Oh what to do .


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## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Then it must have been something else that I thought I remember you saying you did not like having on.


I don't like Dynamic Volume, (which is a version of DRC), or Low Frequency Containment, (which is supposed to reduce LF transmission to the rest of the house, but really just castrates the bass.) We kept both of those off in your system. 



MIkeDuke said:


> Anyway, DEQ seems to be working for me. So far every movie, even the older ones have sounded great. Last night I watched the directors cut of Leon: The Professional. Wow did that sound really good. I turned the crowson down before and I then edged it up a bit. It was working with this film. I can probably turn it up more ( the Crowson). What's interesting is the movie sounded incredibly clean, but did not feel the need to go beyond -18, I know, I am wimp . But the dialog was clear and loud enough. Also, the effects were quite good. I still need to watch some real bass monsters and see what happens. It looked like before that the level was really high and I was afraid that since I can go higher on the MV, that I would blow up the Crowson again. That's why I lowered it. But as I said, I now have raised it up a bit more. Not to where it was, but still more than my first adjustment.
> 
> Here is thing. Am I better leaving the Butt Kicker level where it is and just turn the MV up more. Or, do I turn the Butt Kicker amp up a bit more and just be more careful with the MV. Ideas and thoughts are welcome.


You can do it either way. The advantage of turning up the BK amp and turning down the MV is that there is less transmission of bass to the rest of the house. You can get more "perceived" bass without bothering everyone else in the household as much. If you do this, just be a little careful when you have the house to yourself and you want to crank the volume. At those times, just turn the BK amp down a notch or two. 



MIkeDuke said:


> Plus, I have to admit that with the review Ralph just gave The Force Awakens, I am having a hard time holding off waiting to see if they bring out a 4k version. I for one really liked the movie and I don't want to wait, but I also don't want to double dip. Oh what to do .


Oh c'mon... just Double Dip Dude!!! Then write an AVS review comparing the 2. You'll be famous! 

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

craig john said:


> I don't like Dynamic Volume, (which is a version of DRC), or Low Frequency Containment, (which is supposed to reduce LF transmission to the rest of the house, but really just castrates the bass.) We kept both of those off in your system.
> 
> 
> You can do it either way. The advantage of turning up the BK amp and turning down the MV is that there is less transmission of bass to the rest of the house. You can get more "perceived" bass without bothering everyone else in the household as much. If you do this, just be a little careful when you have the house to yourself and you want to crank the volume. At those times, just turn the BK amp down a notch or two.
> 
> 
> Oh c'mon... just Double Dip Dude!!! Then write an AVS review comparing the 2. You'll be famous!
> 
> Craig


That's it Dynamic volume. I knew it was something with a similar name. 
I am still playing around seeing the right level for the Butt Kicker amp and finding the right level
for the MV. I probably still need to experiment more. But the "problem" with that way is a strong bass tone might sneak in even at a lower level and be an issue. Plus, I don't want to keep having to turn it up and down all the time. I think I am almost there though. 
*"The advantage of turning up the BK amp and turning down the MV is that there is less transmission of bass to the rest of the house."*
Yes, that is an advantage, but I am sometimes joined by someone who can't hear that well and that forces me to up the MV to a point where the dialog is clearer. Although, recently there have been no complaints. As I said, I am still experimenting but I am probably almost there.
And I probably will end up getting Star Wars. 
I don't think I can wait however long it will be because unlike some people I know, I did like the 
movie.


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## MIkeDuke

I will ask this here and possibly in the dedicated TV thread as well. If I update my firmware, will that set all of my settings that are now on my TV back to their default mode? Meaning, all of the video stuff we did will be un-done?
EDIT: Someone in the TV section said that a firmware update will not set everything back to default so that's a good thing.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I will ask this here and possibly in the dedicated TV thread as well. If I update my firmware, will that set all of my settings that are now on my TV back to their default mode? Meaning, all of the video stuff we did will be un-done?
> EDIT: Someone in the TV section said that a firmware update will not set everything back to default so that's a good thing.


Most of the time updating firmware preserves the old settings. Sometimes, though, the change is substantial, requiring that the settings be redone. In other words, asking someone who has done the upgrade is appropriate.


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## MIkeDuke

As I mentioned above, it seems like this update kept the settings. I think I am up to date. In the TV thread for my model I had some links about firmware updates. As I said, I think I have the latest but I am always wondering if I really do. Even though my TV says there are no new updates. The picture looks great as it is so I am not too worried.
But these are interesting links
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1441271852
https://news.samsung.com/global/sam...suhd-and-uhd-tvs?CID=AFL-hq-mul-0813-11000279
http://hometheaterreview.com/samsung-announces-hdmi-20a-capability-for-2015-suhd-and-uhd-tvs/

It's links like that, that make me want to make sure I am up to date. Because that update does seem to add some more functionality to my version of the TV I have. That's all i wondering about.


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## MIkeDuke

Well,
I know I am again probably the only one in here but oh well, I will still document it. Last night I had some time so I decided to listen to some music. I haven't listened to much 2ch since Craig and Ryan came over. Immediately I knew something was wrong. My left speaker was, at my guess 4-5 db lower when compared to my right speaker. It is so easy to hear that I even had someone else who is not an audio person listen to it and they heard it as well. It's just lower. There is sound coming from each driver just not at the same level as the right. I no longer have a nice center stage when I listen to 2ch music. It has totally switched to the right side of the room. *This is an issue that has come and gone since 2011*.

Now, I did NOT make any changes since Craig came over. I had new cables put in before Craig came over and I made no new changes. What's messed up is that all my front speaker issues seem to be always on the left front speaker. That's where it was before and that's where it is now. You can even hear it in movies as well. So again, I am at a loss. Plus, I had this issue with the Integra so I know it's not a preamp thing. To me that leaves some wonky speaker issue or amp issue. The amp powering my fronts is a Bryston 4b-st. It's kind of old. I would say 15 years old. It takes, I think 2 fuses. Now again, having it just lower and not totally go out is maddening and I know it's not in my head. I can't find if I did anything before to try and fix this in my thread. I will keep looking though.

I can't mess around with this stuff on my own so I guess I will just have to deal with it for now. The only thing I can try is replacing the fuses but I don't know if that will do anything. But the fact that it seems to happen on a somewhat regular basis would lead me to believe that there might be an amp problem that is manifesting it self in this strange way. I am one step away from trading in my amps and speakers and getting new gear just to rule out everything. 

Anyway, that's the latest in my phantom speaker issue. 
P.S If anybody knows how to manually check the levels of the speakers in a Marantz preamp, it would be great if you could share that. I can't seem to find a way to do that. Everything seems to be automatic and I do not want to do that.


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## Selden Ball

To actually measure the output signal level, you'd need a voltmeter. You'd only need one that's in the under-$25 range. Play a constant tone through the appropriate input, put the voltmeter's + (red) probe on the preamp's output's center conductor. Put the voltmeter's - (black) probe on the preamp output's outer conductor. The voltmeter's screen will show the voltage being output.;

I doubt it's due to a fuse. When a fuse blows, there's no voltage at all and the output audio would be completely silent.

Is there any way you can get to the back of the pre/pro or amp? 
If you can swap the Left and Right outputs, you'd be able to hear if the low level moves from one speaker to the other. 

First swap the speaker connections on the back of the amplifier,
If it stays with the speaker, then it's a problem in the speaker itself. If it moves, it's in the electronics (amp or prepro).

If it moves, restore the speaker connections on the back of the amplifier. 
Now swap the Left and Right preamp connections, either on the back of the amp or the back of the pre/pro.
If it stays with the speaker, then it's a problem in the amplifier. If it moves, it's in the pre/pro.

Does this help?

(My personal suspicion is that it's a problem in the amp.)


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## MIkeDuke

Yes it helps because it verifies what I thought I would have to do.
Everything after the volt meter is what I was thinking I would have to do. It would be a pain since I am somewhat physically disabled and the person that would help me doesn't feel that comfortable either. But I did mention that about switching the speaker cables and then the balanced cables. I have had issues with my amps before so I would not be surprised if it was an amp problem.

But again, it just seems strange for it to just be lower in level and not totally out. I have no idea what kind of amp issue would manifest itself like that. I can try to do that stuff but if I am being honest, I am not comfortable doing it at all. At least I know I was on the right path as far as what I would need to do to test for the issue. Maybe this weekend I can give it a try.


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## Selden Ball

Might the amp have gain adjustments on the back?

If so, maybe the contacts have oxidized or gotten dirty on one of them
If you turn them down and up again several times (usually amp gains are set to max) that might wipe off the crud. You can do this with power off. Of course, be sure to leave them at the same position where they were before you twiddled them.

Another possibility would be that a transistor has failed in one of the amp circuits, which would require it being returned for repairs.

I hope that the amps are being kept cool. Transistors do tend to fail if they get too hot.


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## MIkeDuke

The amps on on the second rack of an open front an back shelf with some space above so they should have room to breathe.
I don't think they have a gain adjustment on the back. I just checked some pics and it doesn't look like they have that.
Would a transistor failing exhibit the behavior of just lower output and not out right failure?
This is what the specs say:
*The Bryston 4b-ST Stereo amplifier consists of
2 amplifier modules each with 
their own +/-85v power supply. Each of the 
two amplifier modules uses eight of Bryston's
custom power transistors for a total of 16
output devices.
Then it goes on to say that it produces 250 watts
per channel or 800 watts bridged...*

So, is it possible that one of the power supplies or modules is failing
or some of the transistors are failing in such a way 
that it just results in lower output on one channel as opposed not producing
sound at all but still have the other channel be %100?
I am just spit balling here because I am no good at this stuff when it only half breaks .


----------



## Selden Ball

Yeah, a failing transistor does seem to me to be the most likely culprit.

Sorry.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Not to be redundant, but a failing transistor can show that kind of problem? Just less output as opposed to either full or shutting down completely? 
This is like the 2nd or 3rd issue I have had with these Bryston amps. Maybe it's time to get something newer.
The odd thing is both LED lights are green. But maybe they are both green because no matter what, the one channel is still putting out power. If it was not at all it would probably be red or not even on at all.


----------



## Selden Ball

There are lots of different ways a transistor can fail, and lots of different effects can be produced as a result.

But please be sure to do the cable swap tests to determine that it's really the amp that has the problem. You know what assuming can do!


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Well,
> I know I am again probably the only one in here but oh well, I will still document it. Last night I had some time so I decided to listen to some music. I haven't listened to much 2ch since Craig and Ryan came over. Immediately I knew something was wrong. My left speaker was, at my guess 4-5 db lower when compared to my right speaker. It is so easy to hear that I even had someone else who is not an audio person listen to it and they heard it as well. It's just lower. There is sound coming from each driver just not at the same level as the right. I no longer have a nice center stage when I listen to 2ch music. It has totally switched to the right side of the room. *This is an issue that has come and gone since 2011*.
> 
> Now, I did NOT make any changes since Craig came over. I had new cables put in before Craig came over and I made no new changes. What's messed up is that all my front speaker issues seem to be always on the left front speaker. That's where it was before and that's where it is now. You can even hear it in movies as well. So again, I am at a loss. Plus, I had this issue with the Integra so I know it's not a preamp thing. To me that leaves some wonky speaker issue or amp issue. The amp powering my fronts is a Bryston 4b-st. It's kind of old. I would say 15 years old. It takes, I think 2 fuses. Now again, having it just lower and not totally go out is maddening and I know it's not in my head. I can't find if I did anything before to try and fix this in my thread. I will keep looking though.
> 
> I can't mess around with this stuff on my own so I guess I will just have to deal with it for now. The only thing I can try is replacing the fuses but I don't know if that will do anything. But the fact that it seems to happen on a somewhat regular basis would lead me to believe that there might be an amp problem that is manifesting it self in this strange way. I am one step away from trading in my amps and speakers and getting new gear just to rule out everything.
> 
> Anyway, that's the latest in my phantom speaker issue.
> P.S If anybody knows how to manually check the levels of the speakers in a Marantz preamp, it would be great if you could share that. I can't seem to find a way to do that. Everything seems to be automatic and I do not want to do that.


To check the levels, press the "Setup" button on the remote, then select "Speakers", then "Manual Setup", then "Levels." Toggle through the speakers and write down the trim levels. Also, listen to the levels. If the left front sounds quieter than the rest of the speakers, let me know what the trim setting was for the left speaker and all the other speakers. The left front and right front were exactly the same after my last calibration, so they should still be exactly the same. (If you have an SPL meter, measure the SPL levels and let me know what you find.) 

If the calibrated trims haven't changed, and the levels are definitely different, then you have either an amp or a speaker problem. Let me know what you find.

Craig


----------



## craig john

If you feel comfortable doing the cable swap test, please do so. If you don't, checking the levels can probably help identify the cause of the problem.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Hey Craig.
I don't have an SPL meter but trust me, I will be able to hear the difference. It's almost a shame to say but I am happy to report that the issue did not correct itself between yesterday and today. The left is lower than the right. Thanks for the directions. I will give them a shot. I will report what I find. I can probably do that on Fri and report back. If I end up switching cables, that will be on Sat.
Thanks for you help Craig.
Mike


----------



## MIkeDuke

craig john said:


> To check the levels, press the "Setup" button on the remote, then select "Speakers", then "Manual Setup", then "Levels." Toggle through the speakers and write down the trim levels. Also, listen to the levels. If the left front sounds quieter than the rest of the speakers, let me know what the trim setting was for the left speaker and all the other speakers. The left front and right front were exactly the same after my last calibration, so they should still be exactly the same. (If you have an SPL meter, measure the SPL levels and let me know what you find.)
> 
> If the calibrated trims haven't changed, and the levels are definitely different, then you have either an amp or a speaker problem. Let me know what you find.
> 
> Craig


 When I did that, it was on "test tone start" and it would not move up to speaker/level. So I don't know what to do there. I will try the cables if I can. I did have this same issue addressed back in 2011. The three channel I had fixed in 2013. I am contemplating just getting this fixed or getting something new. My options are limited because of budget and space. Two that make the grade are a new Anthem amp, Look at the top three. Either the 2ch and three channel or the 5ch. 
http://overtureav.com/shop/anthem?_vsrefdom=oav_ppc


or a Marantz 7 channel.
http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/P...CatId=AVSeparates&SubCatId=0&ProductId=MM8077
That might fit if I place it in the right spot on my stand and I put it in through the back. The only ther option I can see is just getting my Bryston fixed again. Unless 
someone else has any suggestions for an amp or amps that are not too expensive, can be bought in a store, and can fit where I need them to go. 
BUt more testing maybe tomorrow or Sat.


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> When I did that, it was on "test tone start" and it would not move up to speaker/level. So I don't know what to do there.


You have to start the test tones. It will send the tone to the left front speaker and display the current trim setting. Then scroll down to the CC and listen to the level of it compared to the left speaker. Also note the trim setting. Then scroll to the right speaker and note the level and trim settings. Continue through all the speakers and sub and note the levels and trims. Let me know what you find.

Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

Dude,
My system has a mind of it's own. You said up above that left and front and right front levels should have the same value. I know you did. It was a few posts up (post 1417). Now, this is what it is says:
I swear I did not change anything. Really.
FL +.0.5
C +.0.5
FR +1.5
SR +5.0
SL +5.5
Sub 1 -1.0db
WTF. That difference would certainly account for why the left is so much more weaker now. I mean really, WTF. When I moved the left up to +1.5 it still sounded a little lower but better than before. Should I lower it to .05db instead since that's what the center and right is?
Do I need to adjust the surrounds? You guys HAVE to believe me that I made no changes. As you could see, I did not even know how to. So which direction should I go now that 
I feel like a total idiot.


----------



## Selden Ball

Mike,

Adjust them so they sound the same. If the left channel is still too quiet, turn it up some more. It's the output soundlevel that matters, not whether or not the settings are the same as one another.

Sound level meter apps are available for many smartphones, if that helps.


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Dude,
> My system has a mind of it's own. You said up above that left and front and right front levels should have the same value. I know you did. It was a few posts up (post 1417). Now, this is what it is says:
> I swear I did not change anything. Really.
> FL +.0.5
> C +.0.5
> FR +1.5
> SR +5.0
> SL +5.5
> Sub 1 -1.0db
> WTF. That difference would certainly account for why the left is so much more weaker now. I mean really, WTF. When I moved the left up to +1.5 it still sounded a little lower but better than before. Should I lower it to .05db instead since that's what the center and right is?
> Do I need to adjust the surrounds? You guys HAVE to believe me that I made no changes. As you could see, I did not even know how to. So which direction should I go now that
> I feel like a total idiot.


A 1 dB difference is barely detectable by the human ear. Still, a 1 dB difference is enough to pull the imaging to the louder side. However, it's not enough to make the speaker sound "much weaker" than the other. 3 dB is easily noticeable, and 10 dB is "twice as loud." If you are experiencing something of this magnitude, the trim differences are not what is causing it. Something else is going on. 

Selden had a great idea. Download an SPL meter app for your phone. Phones aren't very good for measuring subwoofer frequencies, but for main speakers a phone app should be fine. Reset the left speaker to where you originally found it and measure the SPL of all the speakers and let me know what you find. 

If you can't do that, then sit in your primary LP and toggle back and forth between the left and center channel. Don't look at the trim numbers, just adjust the trim of the left speaker until it exactly matches the center speaker in _*level.*_ Don't worry about what the trim setting is,.. only listen to the sound and try to make them sound like the same volume. Then do the same thing with the right speaker... match it exactly to the center speaker in _*level.*_ (Remember, these are different speakers, so the tones will sound different in tonality. You are adjusting just the _*level*_ of the speakers, not trying to get them to sound the same.) When you're done with this exercise, let me know what the final trim settings were. 

Then listen again to some 2-channel music and see if the stereo image isn't re-centered where it's supposed to be. Then, if this happens again, let me know and we'll do this exercise again. If we have to reverse the trims back down to where they were previously, we'll also know that something else is going on in your system.

Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks guys.
But, I am going to male this real simple. I am going to listen to music. I am then going to raise the left speaker level until I get that great center image. When I find that, I am done. I don't have a smart phone so I can't download any apps. When I am done with re-setting the levels I will post what they ended up being. 

We have the settings saved in my thread. If Craig comes down for a visit, we can re-set them back to those settings and do some testing. But I am not going to do any of that stuff my self (because I don't have the mental strength to do it correctly ) .

I will post the final settings though.
Thanks for your help guys.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I have some really bad news sports fans. In order for me to get any kind of center stage and to really notice the left speaker is on I have to have the following settings L +8.5 and right +1.5. To be honest, the leftt could probably go even higher but that's good enough for now. Otherwise, it really does shift to the right. Am I at any risk of damaging my speaker with a setting of +8.5. If I were to match it by ear with the center, I culd probably max out the level, but I don't want to do that. It's hard to tell but the right and center are pretty matched up at .05 and 1.5. There be a little play there but it's hard to do by ear and it still sounds better than it did before. I guess I have to the cable changes now. I will do the best I can, but Craig knows that it will be hard for me to do. . Man, this really sucks big time .


----------



## Selden Ball

I don't think that high of a level will directly damage the speaker: that level is just compensating for the low gain in the amplifier, causing the amp to output the voltage it would have if it weren't failing. My concern would be that it might result in serious distortions in the sound, since high input signals from whatever soundtrack you're playing are likely to clip, either in the pre/pro or in the amp.

I suggest turning down the master volume while you're doing the cable swaps. The signal level that you've adjusted will be rather loud when going through the components that are working normally.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden,
When I do my tests, should I re-set the levels to what they were so I could more easily hear the difference? (I.E back to 2.5 ). If I don't. how can I tell if one is lower than the other. It will just sound the same because now, again, it sounds pretty even.
Thanks.
Mike
P.S I am not looking forward to this.
P.P.S I had to lower it a bit from to about 6 because during movie, it was too much to the left.
But I am still going to test


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Selden,
> When I do my tests, should I re-set the levels to what they were so I could more easily hear the difference? (I.E back to 2.5 ). If I don't. how can I tell if one is lower than the other. It will just sound the same because now, again, it sounds pretty even.


 Yes, setting them back to the way the were would be best, I think.


> Thanks.
> Mike
> P.S I am not looking forward to this.
> P.P.S I had to lower it a bit from to about 6 because during movie, it was too much to the left.
> But I am still going to test


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Yes, setting them back to the way the were would be best, I think.


OK When I get a chance to test (may not be for a while), I will set them back to what they were in post 1422.
As I mentioned before, I had to lower it a few DB's because during a movie, it was really too much to the left. I had
it at around +8.5 now I think it's at +5.5, at least for movies. Last night was the first time I tried watching a movie with those settings.


----------



## MIkeDuke

So this weekend (Sat) I will be able to test. Part of me is hoping that it's the amp. If it's the amp, I will just trade them in and try to find something that can fit in the space I have. If it's the speaker, then I have choices to make. Do I see if I can it fixed? Do I say the hell with it and try to get new speakers since I have had these for at least 7-8 years. If I get new ones, what do I get. I am limited with budget and rear channel placement. New ones that will give me equal quality will cost a lot. Maybe they would take all of my stuff, even damaged and give me something if I buy from the same store. It would be at least $10,000 if I try and do this from a store. Or do I take a chance on online speakers like JTR in which case it would be just over $6,000. Or, again, do I hope I can send my left speaker back and have them fix it. Sending the speaker back would be a pain but would be cheaper. New amps wold be new, but would still cost me money and then I would have to hope and pray Craig would help me with the install. We shall find out in a few days.


----------



## Selden Ball

Conventional speakers are relatively easy to repair because they don't have many parts: drivers, surrounds, crossovers, connectors, internal wiring and cabinet. (Plus screws and other fasteners, of course  ) If it does turn out to be a speaker problem (which I doubt), you wouldn't have to get all new ones.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I doubt it's the speakers also TBH. I really think it's the amp. If it was the speakers, I was just day dreaming on what I might change to that's all. But on Sat, I will know for sure. I was just wondering out loud about changing speakers just for something different that's all.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Craig came over. We switched the speaker cables and easily found out it was the amp . I guess that's better than it being the speakers but now I have to ship it out to get it fixed. Lucky for me it's a Bryston, with a 20 year warranty. I bought it in 2002 so that's 6 years left on the warranty so I will send it to them to get it fixed. Craig was also nice enough to lend me an old Emotiva 2 ch amp he was not using in the mean time so at least I won't be down. He also noticed that the SMS-1 seemed low. I said it was always like that. He seemed surprised. So when I get my amp back, we will probably do a major calibration. I will get in touch with them on Monday and then ship it out. So I am going to keep the Brystons. When the warranty runs out, then I will think about getting new amps.


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## MIkeDuke

Amp sent out today. I was told they should get it by Thursday. Then it's the waiting game of them fixing it and shipping it back. The the real choice begins. Do I keep my Bryston amps or upgrade to something newer like from D-Sonic. Upside to that is, it should cut down on the heat in the room a bunch. We shall see.


----------



## MIkeDuke

4th post in a row, I know . I decided to keep my Bryston amps. I do like them and hopefully they will last a bit longer. Besides, I still have 
5 and 6 years left on the warranty for them so why not keep them.


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## Selden Ball

That seems a reasonable decision to me. Digital amps would reduce the power bill slightly, but not enough to repay for the expense any time soon and would be extremely unlikely to provide better sound.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> That seems a reasonable decision to me. Digital amps would reduce the power bill slightly, but not enough to repay for the expense any time soon and would be extremely unlikely to provide better sound.


I was thinking also about the heat. 
Check out the specs I could find for my amps
5BST
1. Idle 142W
2. Each Chan. 8 Ohms (2A ea. 120W) 864W
3. Each Chan. 4 Ohms (3.5A ea. 200W) 1404W
4. Bridged 8 Ohms, and 4 Ohms Single 1562W
(400W and 200W respectively)
5. Max. Wattage 1562W
6. Max. Heat Dissipation 762W
2600 Btu/Hr
They give specs for the 2 ch version but that should be the same except for an extra moduel 
"The Bryston 5b-ST three channel amplifier constits of three amplifire moduals each with its own
+\- 85v power supply. Each of the three modules uses uses 8 custom transistors for
a total of 24 output devices."

Bryston 4b-ST *(This one is getting fixed)*
2x250(really 2x300)
1. Idle Current 186W 
2. Stereo 8 Ohms (250W ea.) 1200W 
3. Stereo 4 Ohms (400W ea.) 1920W 
4. Bridged 8 Ohms (800W) 1944W 
5. Max. Wattage 1944W 
It also says:
"The Bryston 4b-ST Stereo amplifier consists of two amplifier moduals each with its own
+\- 85v power supply. Each of the two modules uses uses 8 custom transistors for
a total of 16 output devices."
I don't have max heat Dissipation but you can bet that it's greater then
762W. Probably over 1000W which means that the BTU\Hr would be above 2600.

So they are not very efficient at all. So I have to have two room fans going some times
And that doesn't even count the Butt Kicker 1000 watt amp. I don't even know the specs for that.
So you can see that I am pulling a lot of power with this amps but a lot of it is wasted in heat.
That's what I like about the D-Sonic. Probably close to 85-90% efficient so the extra heat 
should be minimal. But, I will just run both fans in the summer time, that does help. And I will
just run these amps into the ground. Since they fit my need and they don't seem to add anything to
the signal.
*For the 4b-ST they say the distortion is at less than .007% from 20Hz to 20kHz*. Now The newer SST models 
have much lower distortion then that. I am not sure what the 5b-ST is but it's probably close to that. Needless to say, it's a well built amp. Just a little old that's all. I hope this repair lasts for a while 
Sorry there is so much info here but by now, that's to be expected .


----------



## Selden Ball

Yup. I forgot about the heating problem. Good in the winter, maybe!


----------



## MIkeDuke

So I contacted Bryston to see what the status was. I also asked if the figured out what the issue was. This is what they said:
"Yes; your amp was received and signed for, repaired and returned."
Then I asked what the issue was and they said:
"There will be a repair slip with the amplifier with specifics, but as I recall it just needed the rear panel switches cleaned." Interesting. According to the tracking number I should get it tomorrow. But there is no need for Craig to rush on over since I am using his Emotiva in the mean time. After all that wondering what could be wrong and what should I get, all it needed was a cleaning. So whenever Craig get's around to it, we will re connect my amp and do a full calibration because Craig thought the SMS numbers looked off (numbers wise). But it's good to know it was nothing serious with the amp.


----------



## Selden Ball

Yay!

Although the proof is in the pudding.  You won't know for sure if they fixed the problem until it's actually plugged in and generating heat ... and lots of quality sound!


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden, I lost it with that heat reference because it's so true. Now, My and Craig's schedule don't mesh for a while so it will be some time before I have it back in my system, but I am hoping for the best. But thanks for the laugh.


----------



## craig john

Is your room any cooler with the Emo amp?


----------



## MIkeDuke

You know Craig, I was thinking about that very thing last night. Even though I kept the door open, which helps keeps the room cool, it did seem not to get as warm in there. I even had some lights on and it wasn't that bad. Next time, I might close the door and see what happens. I don't know how powerful your amp is though. But it _may_ be not quite as bad. But if I put my ceiling fan on, that helps. And my other fan really cools the room off a lot. But I am paying attention to that.


----------



## craig john

It's spec'd at 200 watts. Here's a review on it: https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/emotiva-rpa-1-amplifier Page 4 has the measurements. It's 67% efficient. It never really got very hot when I was using it. Try listening to 2-channel with the 3-channel Bryston off and the door closed. See if that alleviates the heat issue. If so, we know what the major source of the heat is... and what the potential solution could be. 

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

So If I notice a difference with the door closed (room seems cooler) when I do that, then we know that the 4b-ST is contributing to the heat in the room. Sometimes, with the door closed and even the ceiling fan on, the room does get warm enough for me to sweat. I hear that a lot when someone comes in the room when I am watching a movie. That's why I try and watch movies with the door not 100% closed. But I will try that with music and see if there is a difference. In reality, it should keep the room cooler.


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> So If I notice a difference with the door closed (room seems cooler) when I do that, then we know that the 4b-ST is contributing to the heat in the room. Sometimes, with the door closed and even the ceiling fan on, the room does get warm enough for me to sweat. I hear that a lot when someone comes in the room when I am watching a movie. That's why I try and watch movies with the door not 100% closed. But I will try that with music and see if there is a difference. In reality, it should keep the room cooler.


I've been in your room when it was warm enough to sweat, but I've usually been working.  If your room is uncomfortably warm when watching a movie, or listening to music, that has to be a problem.


----------



## MIkeDuke

craig john said:


> I've been in your room when it was warm enough to sweat, but I've usually been working.  If your room is uncomfortably warm when watching a movie, or listening to music, that has to be a problem.


Oh it's been like that plenty of times. That's why I have to try and keep the lights off and at least one fan on. But sometimes, it's not as good as it should be. I always get told it's because I have too much equipment in my room. Not only do I have the equipment, but my room gets blasted by the sun for a good part of the day so that does not help. I have some vacation time coming up. So I will be able to watch more movies and listen to more music. But I have been told that my face looks red and I do sweat sometimes if I am in the room with the system on. The second fan can cool the fan pretty good though. So that's my backup plan. But yea, it does get toasty in there at times. Sometimes, you can feel a temp change when you go from my room to the hallway.


----------



## Selden Ball

If you don't already have one, I'd suggest getting a cheap thermometer to find out just how hot it's getting. Besides being uncomfortable, running hot isn't all that good for the electronics.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I agree with that. I used to have a thermometer that you could put on a wood burning stove, but I am not sure if I still have it. I guess I could try and find a cheap in room one to use. But tonight I will break out the other floor standing fan so that should help a bit in the room over all.

Last night I did an un-scientific test. I had both amps on while I was watching TV for an hour. Then I turned it off at about the time I wrote my previous post. Then I went back in and just listened to music, which was just using the Emotiva amp. That was about 40min. Then I watched TV again for an hour. When I turned everything off at 10:00 pm Craig's amp was barely warm. I mean like nothing. My 5b-ST was noticeably warmer. My 4b-ST gets even warmer than my 5b-ST. But with both fans on, the room does become cooler. 

It's amazing how much cooler Craig's amp was compared to mine. I mean I know that his is class H and mine is A/B and the power ratings might be a little different but still, it was quite the difference. I think Craig's amp runs at 60% efficiency and mine is way lower I think. Probably around 40%? Maybe? Who knows. All I know is that some one else seemed to notice the difference as well. We shall see how it is once I use the other fan as well.


----------



## Selden Ball

Well, don't forget that a breeze makes the air feel cooler because it improves evaporation from your skin. Unfortunately, electronics doesn't sweat, so it doesn't have that advantage.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I just wish there was a way to convert either watts or heat distribution that it is putting out into actual temperature.
For instance if you look at 
Max. Wattage 1562W
Max. Heat Dissipation 762W
or
Max. Wattage 1944W 
What temp is a heat distribution of 762 watts. I am at the point where just
for goofs I would get a thermometer that you can put on a wood burning stove 
just to see what happens.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I just wish there was a way to convert either watts or heat distribution that it is putting out into actual temperature.
> For instance if you look at
> Max. Wattage 1562W
> Max. Heat Dissipation 762W
> or
> Max. Wattage 1944W
> What temp is a heat distribution of 762 watts. I am at the point where just
> for goofs I would get a thermometer that you can put on a wood burning stove
> just to see what happens.


There's not a direct conversion between Watts and Degrees. The temperature rise for a given power input depends on what and how much of it is being heated up. For example, you'll get a quicker and higher temperature rise in a small room than in a large room.

I do really hope you aren't getting hot enough to cook a meal!


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> There's not a direct conversion between Watts and Degrees. The temperature rise for a given power input depends on what and how much of it is being heated up. For example, you'll get a quicker and higher temperature rise in a small room than in a large room.
> 
> I do really hope you aren't getting hot enough to cook a meal!


I have been doing some research and it seems you're right. There is no way to easily convert watts to degrees. 
There a few if's in play here. If I close my door and if I don't have both fans on, in the summer time you will be sweating in my room with my system on. I think I will try and find some thermometers that I can use to see how hot they (the amps) really get. But it does get quite toasty. With both fans on though, it does help out.


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> With both fans on though, it does help out.


How loud do the fans get? And are you OK with them blowing on you? (That would bother me.)

Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

The Ceiling fan is quite, but the floor standing one would drive you nuts . I am used to it. With TV you notice it more. If you are watching a movie, it's not that bad. I can keep it on the lowest speed and it's not horrible. I have it rotate so it's not on me ALL the time but it does hit you as it rotates. I am used to it. I also have to keep the lights off. That's a good thing in the long run though. You really have hardly spent any real movie time in my theater. If you want to slum it , maybe you can come down sometime in July or Aug for the day. We can watch some stuff without doing any measurements and you can tell me what you think. I won't put the floor standing one on. This week will be a good test.


----------



## MIkeDuke

My home theater is really done. I won't normally have major updates anymore because I don't see my self doing any changes. Future updates will probably just involve 4k. With a player or drive to go in my server. But I am really done. Today Craig did me a solid by coming over and replacing his amp with my "repaired" amp. Bryston said the only issue was dirty connectors. Strange, I know. But Craig replaced the amps and then did another calibration for the audio. He will tell you that my room is not easy. It's small and the dimensions make it hard to get the kind of response he really wanted. But by working with SMS-1 I think we got it as good as it could be. I seem to have a ringing at 50hz that no matter we did, we couldn't get rid of all together. That's OK. It still sounded really really good to me. In the end, I think Craig was still pleased with the results. And I am very pleased as well. We also have the SubMersive in program 2. He said that would aid bass response down low in my room, All and all I am very happy with how it sounds. I can't wait to give some movies a spin again. I know that Craig is very busy the rest of the day. Again, he did me a solid by coming over today. Craig also took some readings and graphs so maybe, when he gets time, he will drop by and post them and then explain what we did and what the issues are in my room. So know everything is the way it should be. And that's it. Nothing beyond 5.1 for me and no TV bigger than 55". So I am done. I know it's only a 5.1 system, but it's a pretty solid one. So that's it. 
Thanks again Craig. I of course appreciate all of your help .
One more quick thing. I think Craig is also impressed with how good my center stage is with 2ch music. He seemed to indicate that it was right on the money. And Craig, I did find those lifters we were using so now the center _is_
aimed up more towards the listener.


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## MIkeDuke

I wish I knew where Craig was. I have watched a few movies since he came by. Looper was the latest. All I can say is Looper + my system= .


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## MIkeDuke

So,
I know it's mainly me in here. That's OK . I like to keep this as a log of things I noticed. First I am wondering if Jriver MC22 is worth the upgrade. To me the latest version of 21 works great. The only issue I am having is that when I listen to music, the slide show stops when it hits an album cover of whatever band you are listening too. Very strange. There is a work around so I am not going crazy and I have heard that MC22 may have the same issue so since I only have a 5.1 system, and it works fine all other ways, I will probably stay put. I understand that as is, I am good for 4k playback. All I need is a drive and software to rip. 

But the other thing is how good my TV is. It's a 2015 Samsung JS8500. The new ones are supposed to be even better but I am very happy with the video. I just watched The Immortals last night. I am Greek so I sort of have to like it . The audio to me is fine. (more one that overall picture later). I can hear the crunchiness sometimes but it's not too much of a bother. My Crowson goes nuts on this one. But the video. Wow, does it look great. The bright parts look really good but a lot of this film is pretty dark. There is a part in about the middle of the film where two Gods come down to help Thesus. Before, with my Panasonic that part was SO dark you could hardly see anything. I mean the people just looked like shadows. Now, with my Samsung TV the scene looks great. It is much better and easier to see all the action. I mean, I can really tell what is going on. The calibrated Samsung just beat up my old plasma. Plus other parts that were dark were easier to see plus the day light scenes were just full of detail and color. I am sure the 2016 versions are even better somehow but I don't know how. I am very pleased with how great the imaged looked. I think that movie is probably one of the toughest tests for a TV given how dark and black a lot of it is.

Now something else that I noticed. It does sound really good. Everything blend seamlessly. But here is the kicker. When I run the test tones through my speakers, I hear sound from all of my speakers except my sub. When I get to the sub, it is just silent. Now I know it's working because I can hear the bass during movies and I can feel both cones moving. It's very strange. But I really think it's a good thing. Now, the room does not get pounded with bass and I don't think it leaks as much as it did before. Plus, it will probably allow me to turn it up more and not worry about the Crowson. I don't know why it's like that but I am not complaining. It is set to -3db and for me to get any kind of sound out of it during the test tones I have to have it at a minimum of +3db. But I am leaving it as it is because the entire system sounds really good. 
Next steps are a 4k player and when I can get a 4k drive for my server and then I should be good. I can't wait to watch a 4k movie on my TV.


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## Selden Ball

Well, once you've posted to a thread you get notices when it's updated, so there probably are a few people who see your posts 

It might be that the voltage of the subwoofer output on the pre/pro is just too low when playing the test tones to trigger the subwoofer's auto-on feature. You might try disabling the "auto-on" feature so the sub stays on all the time while you're playing the test tones. Alternatively, since our hearing is less sensitive to the lowest frequencies, the sub might actually be playing the test tones but not loud enough for you to hear.


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## MIkeDuke

That could be Selden. But I seem to remember that other times we played the test tones I would hear something from the sub. I mean I know it's on because I hear it and I can feel the cones move when I watch a movie. It just seems strange that's all. Not a complaint because there is bass in the room, just strange. For instance, when I run the the beginning of EOT, I can feel the cones and how they go crazy at the end. I have always been able to hear the test tone. Unless, as I said, -3db is too low for me to hear but that's where it's at. Even at +3db I doubt I would be near 75db on a meter. It just seems strange. But again, the sub works great. It sounds great so I am not going to worry about it.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I am still think about this sub woofer thing. It's very strange. I mean, when I run the test tones and I get to the sub channel I hear nothing. But if I am correct I also feel nothing through the Crowson. Now, we have the Crowson connected to the LFE channel on the Marantz or the SMS-1. I can't remember. But when I run the test tones, I don't feel anything through the Crowson either. It's very strange. When I run a bass heavy scene I can feel the drivers move and the Crowson activates. I need to do some more testing because it's very perplexing to me. I just don't understand it. If I continue to watch movies and I feel the Crowson working and I can feel the SubMersive working, I won't worry about it. But to get no sound at all during what would be the setup phase has me at a loss. Just confused is all. But with me, that easy to do with this stuff .


----------



## sonofsoren

I had a question about what would be the better turntable connection in my setup. I have a Marantz AV8802A preamp with mm phono input and I have a Rega RP8 with Clearaudio Maestro V2 mm cartridge. My question is whether on not it would be any improvement to add a Hafler PH50 mm phono preamp to my setup and run that to a line level input on the Marantz piece? My local hifi store said that would be a better setup but I don't know for sure. They have a 15 day return policy if I don't end up liking it or if there is not any improvement in sound so I guess I wouldn't be stuck with and can try it basically risk free.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Well,
I am using a Dynavector "phono preamp". It's really just something like a phono cartridge enhancer as opposed to an all out phono preamp. I would think that the Halfer would probably be an improvement. The Marantz phono section is probably not as quiet as the Halfer. I have used the Dynavector from the start so I can't say that the Marantz phono section is terrible. But what I can tell you is that good clean records sound awesome when using this setup. Since they have the 15 day return policy, I say go for it.


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## sonofsoren

Thanks Mike. Yeah, I think I can't go wrong with the 15 day return policy. That will give me time to check it out and see if it makes a difference. Thanks again!


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## MIkeDuke

Indeed. If you can work on your system yourself (I can't) and they are willing to give you 15 days to try in out, I say go for it. It's the best way to make an informed decision.


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## MIkeDuke

Just another update by me. Yesterday I watched Avatar. Now what you have to understand is, while I have had it for a long time, I have only seen it once or twice on my own system. For a variety of reasons. But yesterday I was able to do just that. I will start with the obvious. The picture was really good looking. I have to be honest, I don't know how much blacker the screen could get. I mean, it was black. All the way across when needed. But the colors just popped and the detail was really good. Especially on the close ups. All the animals and jungle looked really good also. So I am very pleased with the video (besides one issue which I will get to later).

The audio was also top notch. I know people give this a bad rap for bass but I really had no complaints in my system. I felt my Crowson with my chair so there was some low stuff. Even with the big tree falling I felt some rumble. The engines of the ships also sounded and felt really good. There was some nice movement around the as well with sound effects. But to get back to the video, that's what really impressed me. The colors just jumped of the screen and in parts that were dark but had some bright areas, I could see everything clearly. I really can't imagine how much better the new Samsung's are. They may be better, but I am a happy camper and I am really very satisfied with how it looks.

Now, for the one bad thing . In MC21 through all the versions I noticed a judder with subtitles. They would not be smooth on the screen when another language was spoken. I brought that up in the Jriver forum. I waited a bit and then I bought MC22. That seemed to have fixed the issue. I really did not notice any judder at all. Until Avatar. It was really bad at some points. Now I don't know if it was because the font is not a traditional font or some other reason but at some points it was bad. Then I went quickly to a Bourne movie and Hanna to places that I knew had forced subtitles and they played fine. I will probably do some more testing as well. But it may be that it is now only with Avatar that I have this issue. If that's the case I will just live with it, even though I don't know why. 

But I am not going to let that bring me down . I don't know why it would happen with that one movie but since it's just that one I can live with it. I know it's not the TV because I watched The Last Ship last night and that had forced subtitles that played just fine. So I will just deal with it for that one movie. But I am still in awe with how good the picture looked. I have only seen it look better over at Craig's house.
So that's it for now.


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## MIkeDuke

Another by me . I bought The Big Short because I thought it was a really good movie. I just quickly did my ripping routine and it went fine. When I watch a movie I can press a button on my remote that shows me the audio format and what speakers are available and what are playing. For most of my other movies are either DTS-MA or a few Atmos. So when I look at the audio stream it either says DTS-MA or TRUHD for the Atmos signal. Then underneath it shows how many speakers can be active and how many are. Now, for DTS-MA audio and Atmos soundtracks I get a picture on the left side that shows a 7.1 layout and the right side shows a 5.1 layout, which is what I use. Now we come to the surprise. When I hit that button I saw DTS:X on the left side and that's it. And above that is showed that the audio was DTS:X. On the right side underneath, again it showed a 5.1 layout. So, I unwittingly tested that my server, with Jriver MC22 can play a DTS:X soundtrack. DTS:X scales to any amount of speakers beyond 5.1 right? I am just glad that I now know that I can do DTS:X movies with no issue. I am glad I updated my Marantz. I will just add that it sounded really good as well. Maybe a post on video again sometime in the future.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> DTS:X scales to any amount of speakers beyond 5.1 right?


Right.


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## MIkeDuke

Cool.
It just looked very strange to just see DTS:X in big letters as opposed to seeing a layout of speakers that say, Atmos supports. I mean, when I play an Atmos disk, it doesn't say Atmos in the bottom section. I am just happy that my system can rip and play DTS:X disks .


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Cool.
> It just looked very strange to just see DTS:X in big letters as opposed to seeing a layout of speakers that say, Atmos supports. I mean, when I play an Atmos disk, it doesn't say Atmos in the bottom section.


 That's very strange. When the incoming signal is Atmos, the bottom-left (input signal) display should just say Atmos. If it shows 7.1 separate channels, then the incoming signal doesn't contain the Atmos metadata: it's just Dolby TrueHD.


> I am just happy that my system can rip and play DTS:X disks .


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## MIkeDuke

I will have to double check. We may be talking about two different sections on the same popup screen in my Marantz. I think I have been ripping Atmos so I will see what it says and try to write it down specifically.


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## MIkeDuke

So just to be clear, when I watch a movie that I think I ripped in Atmos, I should only see the word Atmos when I press the button on the Marantz remote that shows me what audio format I am playing back. It should not say TRU-HD, even though that's the base audio and since I am running just 5.1, it's all I get.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> So just to be clear, when I watch a movie that I think I ripped in Atmos, I should only see the word Atmos when I press the button on the Marantz remote that shows me what audio format I am playing back. It should not say TRU-HD, even though that's the base audio and since I am running just 5.1, it's all I get.


Correct: it just says Atmos in the graphic display at the bottom left of the Info screen.


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Correct: it just says Atmos in the graphic display at the bottom left of the Info screen.


Well, if that's the case, then I have been ripping my Atmos BR's wrong. Because it says TRUHD and then shows me a layout of speakers. I have Expendables 3 that is only ripped in Dolby Digital because that's all I could do way back when. My MKV program could not do Atmos but it may be able to now. I am using DVDFab9 for everything now and maybe I not picking the right audio. I don't think I see an Atmos option in there for audio. Just TRUHD and the something like, oh crap I can't remember what it says, but it's right below the TRUHD option and for Atmos disks I just check them both. I guess when I have time, I need to experiment a bit.
P.S I guess what I can do is put in some Atmos disks and report back what I see for audio choices in MKV and DVDfab9. Just so people see what I see.


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## MIkeDuke

So here is the deal. Way back when, I ripped Expendables 3. Now, I had to rip it in only Dolby Digital format at the time because for some reason, and I can't remember why, I could not play back the Atmos\Truhd soundtrack. But I always wanted to upgrade it some day. Well, that was the disk I tried today. I used MakeMKV. The audio I selected said TRUHD\Atmos next to it. When I was all done I played it back and I did not see the word Atmos in the playbacj section. On the bottom I just saw a diagram of a 7.1 channel layout which I know is the bed for an Atmos soundtrack. Who knows. All the movies I have done so far sound great in 5.1 and I don't see myself going to Atmos anytime soon so I am not going to worry about it. We will see what happens in the future. But as is, All my disks that are Atmos but that may be only giving me 7.1 sound awesome so again, I am not going to fret over it.


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## MIkeDuke

One more issue . I ripped Captain America CW. It went all the way through but for some reason the forced subs did not come through. So I said, not a big deal, I will just do it again. Well, I have tried 5 times, with two different programs and when it gets to 50% it fails. Very upsetting. I will still try. I am not giving up. If it worked once, it should work again. Unless they figured out a way to make it fail after you rip it one time.
P.S 
It seems that other people were also having issues with the forced subs. Someone using MakeMKV said that you have to select the English subs that are not even forced. But then someone else said that it didn't work either. I guess I will have to keep experimenting, hoping I can even get it to rip in the first place.


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## Selden Ball

Sorry, I have no personal experience with ripping, but it sounds to me like your Atmos problems might be due to a limitation or a configuration setting in your ripping software. I suggest asking for help in the HTPC forum. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/

The failure at the 50% point might have any of a number of causes. I'd first check to make sure the disc itself isn't damaged. You might try playing it on a standalone player, for example. Alternatively it might be another bug in the ripping software. See my suggestion above.


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## MIkeDuke

That's OK Selden. You can't know EVERYTHING . I might pop in there but since I am still getting TRUHD and I am not going Atmos anytime soon, I won't fret about it too much. But I will see if there are any clear options I can see in the software. I am more upset about the CA not ripping issue . I guess the first test would be to play it through my OPPO and see if I get through the entire movie.


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## MIkeDuke

I figured it out on my own. Instead of just checking off one box in the "Forced subtitle" section I had to check off two. When I did that, the Russian was translated but the English did not have any subs underneath when it was spoken. I am someone who does not give up easily and it just took some time using different combos. Even though some people wanted me to get more software. I knew there was a way, I just had to figure it out.
P.S and it wasn't failing. It was just taking a long time. Using DVDFab9, you can see the % of how much is done and how much time is left. Well, at certain a certain point it would not go above 50% complete and the time it said it needed to complete actually went higher. For ex, it may say 15:25 left. But then the time would go up to 18:43 left. I thought it was failing. But this time let it go all the way through and it eventually started to go back down again. Very strange but from what I can tell, it looks like it worked.


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## MIkeDuke

It's me, again . I just wanted to say again how happy I am with the picture I am getting from my TV. Even though it's a 2015 model, and the 2016 ones are supposed to be better, I am very happy. I watched The Expendables 3 last night. I know it's not a reference movie but it's a fun pop corn movie IMO. Well, the video looked incredible. There were some night scenes that were very impressive, Shots of some cityscapes also looked really good. All in all I am very impressed and I have regrets at all.

I don't know how it measures though and everyone talks about the blacks on a TV. Well, I don't know how much more black it can get. On fade scenes (transition scenes) it looks pitch black to me. I mean if's not like a grey black. It's freaking black. I don't know the measurements though. On the other side of the spectrum, the whites get really bright. I mean, I can feel mu pupils adjusting . Again, I don't have any numbers to back up what I am seeing and if I did, they probably would not look that impressive. All I can say is that from deep black to bright white and every color in between I am very impressed with this TV. Now I am really excited to get that OPPO and see what 4k looks like.

The only thing is the connection. I am using a Samsung JS8500. It has that little box that helps you connect the TV to your system. But I think the BR player I have now is connected directly to my Marantz. I think it is. Craig did all that stuff for me. I am hoping that all I have to do is connect the OPPO to the Marantz. But I don't know if there are only certain HDMI inputs that give you full 4k resolution with the Marantz or my TV. I am hoping it is just a plain cable and player swap and I can plug the the new cable into where the current cable is. But then I am wondering if I need to change anything in my TV menu or my Marantz menu. See, this is where I get confused . But I will deal with that when the time comes.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I
> The only thing is the connection. I am using a Samsung JS8500. It has that little box that helps you connect the TV to your system. But I think the BR player I have now is connected directly to my Marantz. I think it is. Craig did all that stuff for me. I am hoping that all I have to do is connect the OPPO to the Marantz. But I don't know if there are only certain HDMI inputs that give you full 4k resolution with the Marantz or my TV. I am hoping it is just a plain cable and player swap and I can plug the the new cable into where the current cable is. But then I am wondering if I need to change anything in my TV menu or my Marantz menu. See, this is where I get confused . But I will deal with that when the time comes.


I don't think you'll need to change anything in the pre/pro's menus.

Unlike equipment from other manufacturers, who provide a limited number of 4K ports, current D+M products, including the pre/pro that you have, provide full 4K @60 fps support on all of the back-panel HDMI inputs. Unfortunately, the one on the front panel has been found to support only 4k @30fps. I suspect the limitation is because its cable-run to the the primary HDMI chipset is too long so it uses its own cheaper chip. Although it's fine for movie material at 24 fps, my understanding is that current 4K players use full 4K @60 fps for their own menus, which is rather annoying.

Also, quite a few people have found that their older HDMI cables cause problems. New "Certified Premium" cables usually are needed in order to minimize intermittent audio and video dropouts when playing 4K material.

(I have to be somewhat conservative in my comments because I don't have personal experience with 4K. My current system limits me to 1089p. Upgrading everything to 4K, which would have to include a new projector, would cost more than I'm willing to spend right now.)


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## MIkeDuke

Well that's good to know Selden. So when I add a 4k player, I just have to enable HDR on the HDMI inputs (in the Marantz and maybe the Samsung?). At least that's what I am guessing. I will study this more once I get a player. But thanks. That makes this a bit easier. I figured a new cable would be needed though.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Well that's good to know Selden. So when I add a 4k player, I just have to enable HDR on the HDMI inputs (in the Marantz and maybe the Samsung?). At least that's what I am guessing. I will study this more once I get a player. But thanks. That makes this a bit easier. I figured a new cable would be needed though.


Some TVs do have special settings which enable HDR decoding. Sorry I dunno which. Some of the players have too many 4K-related settings which confuse the issue. Since I decided to stick with 1080p for now, I stopped reading the player-specific threads. The OPPO should have its own different quirks, anyhow. The receiver, on the other hand, shouldn't have to do anything special. Since it already implements HDMI V2.0a, it should just pass HDR and WCG through. I do have vague recollections of people reporting problems when their D+M receiver's IP scaler and/or Video Conversion was enabled, but I don't recall all the details, sorry. I seem to recall that some D+M models are unable to overlay their on-screen information onto full-bandwidth 4K video signals, so pressing the Info button would result in the GUI being shown on a black background instead of being shown over moving images.


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## MIkeDuke

We shall see. Hopefully I won't have any issues. But it won't be for a few months anyway because I do think the OPPO is the best option out there. I think my TV does have settings for individual HDMI inputs. But I am running everything through the Marantz I think. I am not sure if anything is connected to the TV directly. But I will figure that out in time. I mean, I want to make sure that I am watching 4k content with HDR. I just have to figure out how to do that. Since I am not smart in that regard .


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## MIkeDuke

So I got my report for the calibration. The person who did it used a Sencore OTC1000 meter. I have charts that I can post in a few days but I do have some basic numbers right now
These are post calibration numbers. Black level is 0.028 cd/m2, white level is 106.9 cd/m2 and contrast is 3720:1. I can put some charts up in a few days. But I will say again, I don't know how muck blacker I need it or how much whiter I need it. They may not be the "best" measurements compared to TV's this year, but the picture looks stunning. Stay tuned...


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## MIkeDuke

First one is Color error


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## MIkeDuke

Second is Color Gamut


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## MIkeDuke

Next is Color Temp


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## MIkeDuke

Here is Gama Tracking


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## MIkeDuke

Next is Lumance


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## MIkeDuke

Next is precal settings


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## MIkeDuke

Next is post cal settings


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## MIkeDuke

Next is RGBTracking


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## MIkeDuke

And finally is white balance








So that's it. That's all the charts I have. If anybody knows video and wants to comment,
feel free.
Thanks for looking


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## MIkeDuke

anybody with video experience have thoughts on my numbers? for ex, is that a good contrast ratio? Are the black and white levels good? do the other charts look good. i will try and post this stuff in the designated tv thread but i was just wondering if anybody could share some thoughts. maybe more to come tomorrow.


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## MIkeDuke

oppo 203 installed and setup. it was not as bad as i thought. i have not been able to watch a 4k disk yet but when i do, i will report back on how it looks on my tv.


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## MIkeDuke

ok so i have watched 4 4k movies so far. i still have three to go.
i watched 
1. x-men Apocalypse-the video was incredible. i could tell the difference between this and the br. the colors just jumped of the screen. the audio also was really good. a nice use of sound all the way down toooo the bass. no playback issues.

2. Independence day resurgence-video, to me, only seemed a little above br. i could see a difference but the color and detail were not there like it was in x-men. probably not disk related but just the transfer itself. it still looked good but not wow good. the audio was very good. again, everything sounded clear and it got intense when needed.

3. star trek beyond-video was really good. colors from light to black were great. the bright colors were really sharp and crisp. the audio was a let down. about more than half way in i had audio drops that lasted about a second and that continued until the end of the film. then i experienced a really bad lip sync error. it was at least a sec. if i remember correctly, the words were spoken about a second before the lips moved on the screen. it was very distracting. but again, it was not the entire film. but when it started it lasted until the end of the movie. it's too bad because besides that the audio was great.

4. pacific rim-video was really good. all the monsters with their colors were impressive. i could tell the difference between this and br. but, the video did freeze two time but then it became unstuck. besides 
that it looked great. the audio was impressive to me. a bit on the extreme side but it was still fun. all of these movies had my crowson moving.

so that's it so far. a bit of a mixed bag. but, i don't know if my audio issues with star trek and the freezing in pr are disk related or player related. if anyone is in here and has some thoughts, i would welcome them. i still have 3 more to watch so we shall see. but again, any thoughts would be nice.
thanks


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## Selden Ball

Mike,

WRT the dropouts: one thing that people often overlook is that 4K UHD movie discs are more sensitive to minor smudges than standard Blu-rays are and much more so than DVDs. Some people have reported that a gentle cleaning often can improve the playback even when no smudges are apparent.

I can't report from personal experience, though, since I have not yet invested in 4K: I'm waiting for the projector prices to come down substantially.


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## MIkeDuke

hey selden.
a light cleaning did the trick. after i wiped it and watched it i had no drop outs or lip sync issues. it was all good .


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## Selden Ball

Great!


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## MIkeDuke

I just have a quick question that is "confusing" to me. When I play a movie, one with a lot of bass, I can sense my sub filling the room and my Crowson, which is tied into the LFE channel really lets me know it's working. For ex, I watched TRON and Interstellar recently. The room was full of bass and my chair was going nuts. But here is the perplexing part. If I go into the menu of my Marantz, and play the test tones, when I get to the sub I don't hear or feel anything. I have it at -2db. Even if I put all the way up. I can hardly hear it. But again, in movies, It can get very loud and I feel a lot. How is that possible. I am not complaining because my current setup really sounds good. I just find it very strange. Any ideas? Or should I let sleeping dogs lie.
Thanks.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I just have a quick question that is "confusing" to me. When I play a movie, one with a lot of bass, I can sense my sub filling the room and my Crowson, which is tied into the LFE channel really lets me know it's working. For ex, I watched TRON and Interstellar recently. The room was full of bass and my chair was going nuts. But here is the perplexing part. If I go into the menu of my Marantz, and play the test tones, when I get to the sub I don't hear or feel anything. I have it at -2db. Even if I put all the way up. I can hardly hear it. But again, in movies, It can get very loud and I feel a lot. How is that possible. I am not complaining because my current setup really sounds good. I just find it very strange. Any ideas? Or should I let sleeping dogs lie.
> Thanks.


The sound levels generated by the test tones also are controlled by the master volume control knob. It needs to be set to 0 (or 80, depending on the volume scale that you're using) in order for the test tones to output the reference sound level.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> The sound levels generated by the test tones also are controlled by the master volume control knob. It needs to be set to 0 (or 80, depending on the volume scale that you're using) in order for the test tones to output the reference sound level.


I did not know that. Reference for me is 0 so that's where I would to set it. So set it to 0 then do the test tones. Thanks for the info.


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## MIkeDuke

Again, I know that I pretty much alone in here , but that's OK. I do have a question that maybe someone can answer. If I need to go to the Marantz thread I will but I thought I would start here. I have the 7702mkII. It has to do with Atmos and DTS:X. When I watch a DTS:X movie, and I click on the the button on the remote that shows you what format is playing, it says DTS:X on one side and the on the other it shows the 5 speakers that I have playing. If I play an Atmos disk that does not happen. It only shows the 7 speakers that could play and 5 that are. Plus, above that it only says TRU-HD *That's if I press the button on the remote.*What I did not know is that if you flip down the front of the Marantz it also shows what audio is being played. I have noticed that for all of my Atmos disks, it only says TRU-HD and shows the 7 speakers that could be playing and the 5 that are. It does not say Atmos. I saw a picture of the front of the Marantz and that front part was folded down. It said Dolby Atmos. So I put it in the 4k Star Trek disk I have and selected Dolby Atmos in the menu. When the movie started, that screen on the front of the Maranyz said TRU-HD, not Dolby Atmos. So is that because I only have 5 speakers? I mean, I have it setup for Bit Stream and if I see DTS:X, I am assuming that it is setup right. It sounds great and I know it would just be down converted to TRU-HD anyway. I am just won wondering why I am not getting an Atmos signal when I do get a DTS:X signal. If this seems like verbal spaghetti and no one can answer, that's OK. I just wanted to try and post, to the best of my abilities, what I am experiencing.


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## Selden Ball

The way the Atmos and DTS:X decoding is displayed is mostly a quirk of how the decoders are implemented.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you have only a 5.1 speaker configuration and you don't have overhead speakers. As a result, the pre/pro does not enable Atmos decoding. Logically it could, but there's really no point. It only shows the Atmos label when the Atmos decoder is in use. In contrast, the DTS:X label is shown when a DTS:X soundtrack is detected, whether or not the DTS:X decoder is actually active.

An Atmos soundtrack is provided as as a "traditional" 7.1 Dolby TrueHD soundtrack (which is what you're seeing: 5.1 + rear surrounds) plus metadata which describes where the Atmos "audio objects" are located in xyz coodinates. All of the sounds which would be redirected to other speakers (like front wides and overheads) are present in the 7.1 soundtrack. When Atmos decoding is enabled, the decoder deletes appropriate sounds from the 7.1 soundtrack and calculates which speakers those sounds should go to.

DTS:X really doesn't work that way. Despite all their marketing, the vast majority of the soundtracks that are being shipped are only in a fixed channel soundtrack format with no objects, so DTS:X decoding can be enabled for them no matter what speaker configuration you have. The person mixing the soundtrack works with audio objects in xyz coordinates, but the final soundtrack created for home audio systems merges them together into audio channels intended for specific speakers. (Unlike D&M devices, Yamaha equipment actually shows how many speaker channels and objects are included in DTS:X soundtracks. People have found that only a few of their demo soundtracks include any objects at all.)


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## MIkeDuke

OK Selden, that clears things up a bit. So if I had height speakers, like a 5.1.4 setup, your saying that the preamp would know that and I would see the word Atmos displayed. But because I don't, have that, I am only seeing the TRU-HD 7.1 setup listed even when I play an Atmos Track. I am only seeing the "bed" layout. And if I had a true 7.1 setup with front height's I would also see that same layout. But when you switch to an true atmos setup, those get re-routed and I would see the word Atmos. Do I understand it correctly?

But DTS decided to have it different and show that it's a DTS:X track, even if I only have a 5.1 setup. At this point it's all kind of moot because I don't see myself getting Atmos in the near future. I was just wanted to make sure things were setup right because I saw the DTS:X name on my screen but I never saw the Atmos name on my screen. Once again, thanks for breaking things down so I could understand them .


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> OK Selden, that clears things up a bit. So if I had height speakers, like a 5.1.4 setup, your saying that the preamp would know that and I would see the word Atmos displayed. But because I don't, have that, I am only seeing the TRU-HD 7.1 setup listed even when I play an Atmos Track. I am only seeing the "bed" layout. And if I had a true 7.1 setup with front height's I would also see that same layout.


Front Heights are overhead speakers and are part of an Atmos (or DTS:X or Auro3D) configuration. (often shown as 5.1.2) They are not part of the traditional 7.1 configuration. The latter is a 5.1 speaker configuration plus a pair of Rear Surround speakers. If you add Front Heights, Atmos decoding will be enabled. If you add Rear Surrounds, it won't.



> But when you switch to an true atmos setup, those get re-routed and I would see the word Atmos. Do I understand it correctly?


Front Heights are part of a true Atmos setup. See above.



> But DTS decided to have it different and show that it's a DTS:X track, even if I only have a 5.1 setup. At this point it's all kind of moot because I don't see myself getting Atmos in the near future. I was just wanted to make sure things were setup right because I saw the DTS:X name on my screen but I never saw the Atmos name on my screen. Once again, thanks for breaking things down so I could understand them .


Yup, you're fine.

Overhead speakers, including the kind which point upward and bounce sounds off the ceiling, do make a significant improvement in the sound, so you should seriously consider adding them if you can.


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## MIkeDuke

So,
I know it's like the first day of school and I am sure I can find diagrams, but let me see if I understand.
Let's start with the basic setup.

a) 5.1 setup: We all know what that is 
b) Then we have the 7.1 setup. That's a 5.1 setup with front heights. 
c) Then we can have a 9.1 setup, like Craig has that has the front heights and wides, I think. 
d) Then we start with the Atmos setups.

So the minimum Atmos would be 5.1.2. That would equal a 5 channel system with 2 speakers above. But there is also 5.1.4. That is a 5 channel system with 4 speakers above. Are you saying you can't have a 7.1.2 setup or 7.1.4 setup as well? I mean you can obviously have more if you add an external DSP. Matt (Brolic Beast) I think has 17 speakers (including Atmos), not counting subs. Atmos has to be more than just 5.1.4 right? The "affordable" preamps may be limited to just that but I have seen Atmos and Auro3D systems greater
than that. 

My preamp has enough for 11 speakers but I think only 9 can be played at once. Could that equal a 7.1 system, with front heights, or wides and 4 Atmos speakers? This is all theory for me right now but it's good to learn what is possible. Man I wish I had a bigger room . Even the up firing speakers would be a pain because I would need to power them and I really don't have a spot for another amp. The only way to do it would be to get new amps and I don't see that happening. But thanks for the explanation. It will come in handy at some point


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> So,
> I know it's like the first day of school and I am sure I can find diagrams, but let me see if I understand.
> Let's start with the basic setup.
> 
> a) 5.1 setup: We all know what that is
> b) Then we have the 7.1 setup. That's a 5.1 setup with front heights.


Sorry, but no, not if you mean the 7.1 speaker configuration used by movie soundtracks.

The two channels added when going from a 5.1 channel soundtrack to a 7.1 channel soundtrack on Blu-ray are called Rear Surrounds. When you add those two speakers to a 5.1 speaker configuration, the Surround speakers are moved somewhat forward (and as a result often are called Side Surrounds) and two Rear Surround speakers are added behind you. (See the attached image.)

Before the advent of Atmos, all uses of Front and Rear Height speakers were artificial. The sounds going to them were generated by various "upmixers" in the receivers (or pre/pros). They were not designed into the movie soundtracks.. Sounds located in Rear Surround channels, however, were provided in the 7.1 channel soundtracks on the discs. (DTS and Dolby encodings also provided 6.1 soundtracks on a small number of DVDs, with the 6th channel corresponding to a center Rear Surround speaker.) With the advent of Atmos, Front and Rear Heights are formally supported as overhead speakers.



> c) Then we can have a 9.1 setup, like Craig has that has the front heights and wides, I think.


Some people use 7.1 or 9.1 simply to indicate that they have 7 or 9 speakers. Unfortunately, if they don't say which speakers they actually have, there's no way to know for sure.



> d) Then we start with the Atmos setups.
> 
> So the minimum Atmos would be 5.1.2.


Actually, the minimum for Atmos is 2.0.2.


> That would equal a 5 channel system with 2 speakers above. But there is also 5.1.4. That is a 5 channel system with 4 speakers above. Are you saying you can't have a 7.1.2 setup or 7.1.4 setup as well?


Yes, you can have 7.1.2 or 7.1.4 if your equipment supports it. For example, I have a 7.1.4 speaker system: 7 speakers are at ear level and 4 are overhead (see my sig below).

My 7 ear-level speakers are in the "traditional" layout (Front LCR + Side Surrounds + Rear Surrounds). Some people have Front Wides instead of Rear Surrounds.

Annoyingly, support for Front Wide speakers was eliminated in all of the major 2016 equipment models. (i.e. support was dropped by Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Integra and Pioneer. Yamaha has never supported them. I don't think Sony has, either.)



> I mean you can obviously have more if you add an external DSP. Matt (Brolic Beast) I think has 17 speakers (including Atmos), not counting subs. Atmos has to be more than just 5.1.4 right?


The Atmos standard supports from 2.0.2 to as many as 24.1.10 (The .1. is a quirk of Dolby's definition of that digit: only 1 LFE track is provided on a disc. You can connect as many subs as you want.)

In contrast, DTS requires at least 5 speakers at ear level.


> The "affordable" preamps may be limited to just that but I have seen Atmos and Auro3D systems greater
> than that.


The Atmos specifications allow for up to 24 speakers at ear level and 10 speakers overhead for a total of 34 active channels. 

Affordable equipment models are limited to a maximum of 11 active channels, of which a maximum of 4 can be overhead. Companies like Trinnov sell pre/pros which currently are limited to a maximum of 32 active channels, although I believe that they're coming out with a 48 channel version later this year. They start at about $15K for 8 channels, I think.



> My preamp has enough for 11 speakers but I think only 9 can be played at once.


You're misremembering: like my SR7009, your AV7702MkII can calibrate up to 13 channels of which 11 can be simultaneously active.


> Could that equal a 7.1 system, with front heights, or wides and 4 Atmos speakers?


Not exactly, sorry: Front Heights are included as one of the two pairs of overhead speakers supported by D&M equipment.

Front Wides, however, are ear-level, so they are in addition to the 4 overheads.



> This is all theory for me right now but it's good to learn what is possible. Man I wish I had a bigger room . Even the up firing speakers would be a pain because I would need to power them and I really don't have a spot for another amp. The only way to do it would be to get new amps and I don't see that happening. But thanks for the explanation. It will come in handy at some point


Having overheads can make a big difference in the sound. If you can't squeeze in the necessary amps, though, that's obviously a limitation.


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks for the clarification, even if some of it is confusing to me. But again, I really don't have the space for front wides. The most I could do would probably be a 5.1.4 setup. But, one pair of the atmos speakers have to directly over my seating position, then I would have to move some ceiling treatments I have. If not, then I could put them a bit outside my seating position and put the other two up front. Or only put two in the front of the room and none directly overhead. See, with all these constraints, I wonder if it's worth what I would have to do. I want to, but it just may not be feasible. I can't even do a 7.1 system like you have pictured. I can't get the angles right. Oh well, it looks like I am stuck with 5.1. 5.1.4 would be the best I could do if the opportunity ever presented itself. 
Thanks again.


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## Selden Ball

Getting speakers in exactly the right positions really isn't necessary. Dolby makes the point that Atmos is quite forgiving.

As I mentioned previously, you might want to consider what are called "Atmos-enabled Dolby speakers". They're designed to sit on top of existing ear-level speakers and point upward so that their sounds are actually reflections coming off the ceiling. They include some psychoacoustic filters to help augment the overhead experience. Don't waste your money on the ones made by Onkyo and DefTech, though.


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## MIkeDuke

That's good to know that they don't have to be exactly is a specific spot. That would make placing the two in the back of the room easier. 

It sounds like your setup is all "ear level" (besides the atmos speakers of course). Mine is not. My room necessitated me putting my surrounds in a less than ideal space up high. It still sounds great and surround material is easily heard but it literally impossible for me to place speakers on top of them. I would only be able able to place them on my front two speakers. And have no space for front wide speakers either. 

You have front wides right? I guess it makes some kind of sense that the front heights are now part of the Atmos speaker part of a system. But I don't like that you cant have more than one pair of surrounds. I think it would cool and enhance the surround experience if you were able to have 4 speakers in the rear. But again, I guess the manufactures figured Atmos would take care of that as well. 

I don't know if I will do anything though. Getting a new amp and trying to find a place for it is the most pressing issue. Until I move into a bigger room, I may just stick with my 5.1 setup. But hey, I can dream can't I .
Thanks for you explanation of things again Selden. It has been most helpful.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> That's good to know that they don't have to be exactly is a specific spot. That would make placing the two in the back of the room easier.
> 
> It sounds like your setup is all "ear level" (besides the atmos speakers of course). Mine is not. My room necessitated me putting my surrounds in a less than ideal space up high. It still sounds great and surround material is easily heard but it literally impossible for me to place speakers on top of them. I would only be able able to place them on my front two speakers. And have no space for front wide speakers either.
> 
> You have front wides right? I guess it makes some kind of sense that the front heights are now part of the Atmos speaker part of a system. But I don't like that you cant have more than one pair of surrounds. I think it would cool and enhance the surround experience if you were able to have 4 speakers in the rear. But again, I guess the manufactures figured Atmos would take care of that as well.


Actually, I have Side Surrounds plus Rear Surrounds. If you put the Side Surrounds somewhat to the rear of directly to the side, I suppose you could consider them to be two sets of rear speakers.

Note that if you're willing to spend $20K or more for a Trinnov Altitude32 pre/pro, you can have quite a few speakers in the rear  (10?)



> I don't know if I will do anything though. Getting a new amp and trying to find a place for it is the most pressing issue. Until I move into a bigger room, I may just stick with my 5.1 setup. But hey, I can dream can't I .
> Thanks for you explanation of things again Selden. It has been most helpful.


Dreaming is part of the experience....

You're very welcome.


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## MIkeDuke

This is "my" dream setup.
I would start with a basic 5.1 setup. Then I would add front wides. Then I would put a pair of side speakers along the wall. I don't think I would need front heights because I would also be adding 4 atmos speakers. I also don't know if I would need another set of surrounds. That would be the wild card. Plus Sub(s) of course. By my count that's a 9.1.4 system or 13 speakers plus the subs. If there was someway to do that, and have all speakers active, that would great for me. Even if I would need an external DSP for the other speakers. I think that's how Matt is doing his massive system. This is basically Craig's system with Atmos speakers. I am not sure how many more speakers you need. I think that would be great. Although like Matt's system, and this one Auro system I saw on line, I know you can go much higher with the speaker count. That's my dream system. I know it would not be cheap, but if I had the chance, I would find a way. Again, this is a dream that will probably never happen. So I have to be satisfied with my 5.1 setup.


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## MIkeDuke

What could cause a TV to keep settings in TV\cable mode but be COMPLETLLY off in my server mode. It actually changed the numbers when I am in Server mode and when I look at what Back light is now 20 and contrast is now 100. That was not the post cal numbers. But I did not change any thing. The Cable TV mode seems to have the right calibrated settings.I can give more info on all my settings later, But this has only happened recently. There was also ONE time when I switched from the server to the TV and the cable\TV picture was all messed up. It was a combo of being snow and something else I can't remember happing at the same time. I understand no one can really help me but I don't know if it's the video board in my server or the video board in my TV, even though t seems to be holding up, that one static incident has me puzzled. So I don't know if it's the video card in the sever, the video card in the Marantz or the video card in the TV.
. You should see what AVS looks like since I am typing this through my server.


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## Selden Ball

Have you been watching any 4K movies using a 4k (UHD) player?

Apparently they can force a 4K TV into a "torch" mode in order to provide HDR (High Dynamic Range) colors.

edited to add:

Your computer might be doing something similar.

You might try swapping the cables between the cable box and the computer 
(so the computer is using the cable box's HDMI input on the pre/pro and
the cable box is using what was the computer's HDMI input on the pre/pro)
to see if that changes anything.


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Have you been watching any 4K movies using a 4k (UHD) player?
> 
> Apparently they can force a 4K TV into a "torch" mode in order to provide HDR (High Dynamic Range) colors.
> 
> edited to add:
> 
> Your computer might be doing something similar.
> 
> You might try swapping the cables between the cable box and the computer
> (so the computer is using the cable box's HDMI input on the pre/pro and
> the cable box is using what was the computer's HDMI input on the pre/pro)
> to see if that changes anything.


Yes. I have been watching 4k movies with my oppo and they always seem fine. I need to double check when I can. I can
pull up the TV settings and see that it still looks normal. Again, It never did this before. Server movies always looked great. 
There was something that was happening that had me leaning towards the TV being issue(but I can't fully remember.) It could have been that it was "all of a sudden"
looking like this and not saving the settings in the in ""Movie Mode" which is where the calibration was done. I thought maybe an HDMI
input went bad on the TV which was connected to the server. I really can't get back there to change cables so I am going to have to just
do the best I can at documenting the issues that I see. But besides that,at least with the server (I think it's just the server) the picture looks very dark 
and washed out. If I see anything else or think of a better way of explaining I will. 
Thanks


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## MIkeDuke

OK. I think the issue is solved. Somehow it had to do with HDMIUHD settings in my TV. I thought I read that for 4k disks that should be set to on. I also read that if you set it to on, on a device that does not use it, it would be ignored. But for me, that was wrong. When I turned them all off except for the OPPO everything worked. The settings were right where they should have been. It stuck with the calibrated settings for the server and TV. Tomorrow I need go watch a 4k and see how that looks with that UHD setting to on. That's where it should be set right? If I do that then I should get bolder HDR colors. I don't even know if I am getting HDR with 4k, but my server stuff looks great again. I am hoping for the best with 4k movies through the OPPO. Everyone raves about HDR. I hope I am setup for it correctly. If anybody has thoughts on this post, please let me know.


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## Selden Ball

I'm glad you got that figured out!


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## MIkeDuke

Yep. I think I am good. I watched The Magnificent 7 (Denzel version) and it looked great. The landscape look simply awesome. The detail was there for sure in every shot. The close ups of the actors look really good as well. BTW, I turned off that UHD even for the OPPO. John Wick 2 and the 7 looked good enough for me so I am going to leave it well enough alone. If I were to turn on that UHD setting for my OPPO I would probably need another calibration just for that input. It's not worth the trouble. I am going to leave it as is. Can't wait to watch some that I have not watched and get some new ones like Life and Blade Runner. Plus a few others that will be coming out in time.


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## MIkeDuke

Been away,  but now I am back,. I really like 4k on my system, even though it's 5.1. I watched Dunkirk last night. Man oh Man. First, the picture looked really good. Tons of detail in ever scene. The audio, to me was incredible. The Dog fights and small arms fire was really intense. It came from every direction. My Crowson and sub really were working hard I think. Now, this was measured at the data bass site and they said it clipped like crazy. Either my speakers don't make the clipping that bad, or I can't hear it. But it was one of the most intense audio experiences I have ever had in my room. I had it at -18db. Can't wait to pick up some more.


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## Selden Ball

Now you just need to add a few speakers and upgrade to Atmos and DTS:X !


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## MIkeDuke

Selden Ball said:


> Now you just need to add a few speakers and upgrade to Atmos and DTS:X !


Don't tempt me . I am weak. Besides, I am not sure I can put them in the right spot. PLUS, it would require me redoing 
my amps, which is not going to happen. It's OK. I can live with 5.1. I will just live vicariously through everybody else
that has Atmos or a system with more than 5 main speakers.


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## Kain

MIkeDuke,

You have one SubMersive in your room, correct? It's located at the rear of the room, right? How do you find the bass in the room? I'm planning a home theater and my room is also quite small. The front wall will be taken up by the front speakers and TV. I can't place anything on the side walls because one side has a large sliding door + floor to almost ceiling window and the other side has a large built-in closet. I can only place subwoofers at the back of the room. I am thinking of getting two SubMersives and placing them near the two rear corners of the room. The seating will be roughly 3-4 ft from the back wall. Do you think this will turn out okay?


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## MIkeDuke

Hey Kain.
Sorry it took so long to reply but my thread doesn't get much play, plus I have been sick the last few days.. I had my SubMersive in the back of the room and it worked great. Then for goofs, Craig decided to move it up towards more along the side of the wall. The result was still great bass but if I remember correctly, we did not have use the EQ as much to get a good response. But I was very happy with the corner loading of my one Sub. Your setup is actually better than mine because my chairs are along the back of the wall with no room at all for more space. Having chairs flush with the back wall like I do is not supposed to be good. I think dual SubMersives (whether old school like me or new F2 style) would be great and even out the bass. I think it will be better than OK. I think it will be fantastic. Just out of curiosity, when you say near the two corners, what does "near" mean. The original SubMersive like I have is able to be placed within inches between the driver and the wall. Of course, if you go for the F2, that doesn't matter. But dual Submersives, in a fairly small room will really impress you. Trust me. I say go for it.


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## Kain

MIkeDuke said:


> Hey Kain.
> Sorry it took so long to reply but my thread doesn't get much play, plus I have been sick the last few days.. I had my SubMersive in the back of the room and it worked great. Then for goofs, Craig decided to move it up towards more along the side of the wall. The result was still great bass but if I remember correctly, we did not have use the EQ as much to get a good response. But I was very happy with the corner loading of my one Sub. Your setup is actually better than mine because my chairs are along the back of the wall with no room at all for more space. Having chairs flush with the back wall like I do is not supposed to be good. I think dual SubMersives (whether old school like me or new F2 style) would be great and even out the bass. I think it will be better than OK. I think it will be fantastic. Just out of curiosity, when you say near the two corners, what does "near" mean. The original SubMersive like I have is able to be placed within inches between the driver and the wall. Of course, if you go for the F2, that doesn't matter. But dual Submersives, in a fairly small room will really impress you. Trust me. I say go for it.


Thanks for the reply. 

By "near the two corners" I meant 1/4 and 3/4 lengths of the rear wall. Not directly in the corners but along the rear wall.


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## MIkeDuke

I think you should be fine with duals like that. In fact it would be insane. The good kind .


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## MIkeDuke

Just to be prepared, new RAID being built. It will probably end up being about 25TB. That's in addition to my other RAID, where I have most, but not all of my movies on. I still have about 10TB left on that. So I should be good for quite a while.


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## BrolicBeast

MIkeDuke said:


> Just to be prepared, new RAID being built. It will probably end up being about 25TB. That's in addition to my other RAID, where I have most, but not all of my movies on. I still have about 10TB left on that. So I should be good for quite a while.


 
25 TB? Awesome... I take it 4k through JRiver is in your future???


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## MIkeDuke

BrolicBeast said:


> 25 TB? Awesome... I take it 4k through JRiver is in your future???


That's the plan. I am upgrading to the latest version of Jriver. I just need to wait for software like DVDFab to be able to really rip 4k disks fully, not just a portion or half way. But that is my hope. The guy who built my server says we aren't there yet. even though DVDfab says 4k "videos". That's not the same as ripping a disk I think. Anyway, I can wait. Someone will do it. At some point.


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## BrolicBeast

MIkeDuke said:


> That's the plan. I am upgrading to the latest version of Jriver. I just need to wait for software like DVDFab to be able to really rip 4k disks fully, not just a portion or half way. But that is my hope. The guy who built my server says we aren't there yet. even though DVDfab says 4k "videos". That's not the same as ripping a disk I think. Anyway, I can wait. Someone will do it. At some point.


Chat with @audioguy....he's already well into this game with 4K. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## MIkeDuke

My friend finished it. Came out to 21.8 TB. I will send him a PM when I can.
Thanks


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## MIkeDuke

Connected the RAID with no problem. Now I am set for a very long time. Besides it being small, I am very happy with my setup and it will soon do everything I would want a HT to do. 4k looks great, regular BR look great. And both sound great. So I can live with only having 5.1 speaker.
So this is my RAID setup. I am using that almost exclusively:
(except for 4k but hopefully that will change in a little bit)
Raid 1 18.1 TB used 8.23 TB 9.95 free
Raid 2 21.8 TB
total free 31.75
39.9 Total space​
I am using Raid one for mainly BR from now on and possibly new anime
Raid 2 will be used only for 4k if I am able.


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## audioguy

Mike: MakeMKV is perfect for ripping 4K/HDR movies and there is an AVS thread on the subject. Of course it also works for regular Blu Ray.


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## MIkeDuke

audioguy said:


> Mike: MakeMKV is perfect for ripping 4K/HDR movies and there is an AVS thread on the subject. Of course it also works for regular Blu Ray.


Thanks Chuck. I guess I would need to get the latest version. I have MakeMKV already and I used to use it for BR. It seemed like there were a lot of steps. I also have DVDfab, which I can always get the upgraded version.
A friend said that's a bit easier to use. We shall see. Thanks though.


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## audioguy

MIkeDuke said:


> Thanks Chuck. I guess I would need to get the latest version. I have MakeMKV already and I used to use it for BR. It seemed like there were a lot of steps. I also have DVDfab, which I can always get the upgraded version.
> A friend said that's a bit easier to use. We shall see. Thanks though.


With MakeMKV, there are only a few steps and if you want to copy the entire disc (I only copied one version and one soundtrack) not a big deal but if you want to select what you copy, that takes a bit more time. It is NOT just stick in a disc and press Go!! I am not aware of other software that are successfully copying 4K /HDR but there most certainly may be.


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## MIkeDuke

Unfortunately, I don't think my video card will support HDR. 
This is the video card I have
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487164

I don't think it supports HDR. That's too bad. As to the ripping, my friend who built my machine will do some
testing and let me know what he finds out. I only want the movie and the soundtrack. Again, we shall see.
Thanks though for the info.


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## MIkeDuke

Now I am not sure. I have seen on a few websites that my video card will support HDR. I need to confirm with a friend of mine.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I just wanted to test the limits of my system. So I watched Elysium at -10. No problem. Sounded great. Then I tested some bass heavy parts of different movies and held my breath. I did the intro to Edge of tomorrow and I did the part where Flynn gets transported into the computer in Tron and the final test was the big explosion of the bridge and truck flying into the house in WOTW. They all passed with flying colors. If I can do -10 on those, I am sure I can do -10 on just about anything. Good to know.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Well, I did not think it would happen but I am going Atmos. Not only am I going Atmos but I am going 7.1.2 style of Atmos. Plus I am changing amps. Craig came up with the idea when he installed a few of the up firing modules for people that reflect of the ceiling. He said he was impressed with the results. So, after going through a few choices, that frankly were not the best, I was ready to give up. But that is not in Craig's vocabulary. He found out that Focal has the sib evo dolby atmos speakers.
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-1X80W6gJboy/p_091EVO20A/Focal-Sib-Evo-Dolby-Atmos.html
They have drivers on the front and a driver on top of the speaker so I can also use them as wides. But what that meant is I needed more amp channels so I am getting rid of my Bryston amps and I am getting amps from Wyred4Sound. They should run cooler anyway and make the room more comfortable. I am getting a 7ch and 2ch
https://wyred4sound.com/products/power-amps/multichannel/mc-7150
https://wyred4sound.com/products/power-amps/stereo/st-mkii-series
Plus we are re-wiring the system so it looks neater and cleaner. 
And I am replacing my power conditioners with these
https://www.amazon.com/APC-H15BLK-12-Outlet-Rack-Mountable-Conditioner/dp/B000FBF08Q/ref=pd_sbs_23_4?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000FBF08Q&pd_rd_r=56506WWJV9H2FVKEE8QJ&pd_rd_w=ivst8&pd_rd_wg=YJcv8&psc=1&refRID=56506WWJV9H2FVKEE8QJ
It's quite the upgrade I think. EVEN if the Atmos is not out of this world, I am sure adding wides will make a difference. I am very excited about this. Now we just have to coordinate a time since I have all the equipment.


----------



## Selden Ball

Since you mention the Wide speaker position, I just thought I'd mention some limitations that you hopefully already know about.

Unfortunately the Front Wide speaker position is not used or supported by the Dolby Surround upmixer, although it is supported (but not always used) by Atmos soundtracks. The DTS Neural:X upmixer also supports it. Another caveat is that the 2016 (e.g. AV7703) and 2017 (e.g. AV7704) models of D&M equipment don't support Front Wide at all. It is supported by their top-of-the-line AVR X8500H and AV8005 models, but I dunno if it'll be present in any of their lesser models.

Sorry, I've forgotten which model of pre/pro you have, so I don't know if it supports Front Wide.


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## MIkeDuke

Hey Selden. I did read something about that in another thread. So basically, if I have a 5.1 audio track, and I want to use wides, I HAVE to use the DTS Neural:X upmixer. And in some Atmos tracks, it's sounds like you are saying that it's not always used. Now, I since my wides and atmos upfiring driver are in the same box, what to you think will happen. Do you think that only the upfiring driver will work. I mean I think it is powered on it's own from my amp. I think. I am using the Marantz 7702MKII. Mine is a 2015 model. Or maybe a 2016, I don't remember but it not a 7703. Like I said, it is a 7702MKII. Craig thinks that I will be able to use them as wides when I want to. We shall see. Thanks though for the info. No matter what, I am excited to get this all setup.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> Hey Selden. I did read something about that in another thread. So basically, if I have a 5.1 audio track, and I want to use wides, I HAVE to use the DTS Neural:X upmixer.


Correct.


> And in some Atmos tracks, it's sounds like you are saying that it's not always used.


Correct. 

How much the various speakers get used in an Atmos soundtrack really depends on what the movie's director wanted. In general, if the person mixing the audio defined objects (like the noise generated by a truck engine as it drives by) which moved smoothly from the center toward the side, they'll also make use of the Front Wides as they pass through those locations.


> Now, I since my wides and atmos upfiring driver are in the same box, what to you think will happen. Do you think that only the upfiring driver will work. I mean I think it is powered on it's own from my amp. I think.


So far as the processor is concerned, they're separate speakers: Front Wide and Height 1. When playing an Atmos soundtrack, the Front Wide speakers will generate sounds if a "sound object" passes through the xyz coordinates associated with Front Wide locations. Similarly, the upfiring speakers will generate sounds if a "sound object" passes through the xyz coordinates defined for "Front Dolby" speakers.


> I am using the Marantz 7702MKII. Mine is a 2015 model. Or maybe a 2016, I don't remember but it not a 7703.


Your first statement is correct: the Marantz AV7702MKII is a 2015 model. The AV7703 is a 2016 model.


> Like I said, it is a 7702MKII. Craig thinks that I will be able to use them as wides when I want to. We shall see.


It does include support for Front Wides and you will be able to use them.


> Thanks though for the info. No matter what, I am excited to get this all setup.


Enjoy!


----------



## MIkeDuke

Well, thanks for answering all my questions so well. I like all the answers you gave. Especially 
"So far as the processor is concerned, they're separate speakers: Front Wide and Height 1. When playing an Atmos soundtrack, the Front Wide speakers will generate sounds if a "sound object" passes through the xyz coordinates associated with Front Wide locations. Similarly, the upfiring speakers will generate sounds if a "sound object" passes through the xyz coordinates defined for "Front Dolby" speakers."
And
"It does include support for Front Wides and you will be able to use them."
So at a minimum I will get 7.1 if that's all I want from my system. At most I will be getting 7.1.2. If that's the case, and I can do the following I will be happy:
1. Upconvert 5.1 to 7.1 Using DTS:X regardless if it is a dolby signal of some kind or DTS on DVD's. Or if its Tru-HD or DTS-MA on BR's. That for all the upconverting that I listed below. 
2. Upconvert 5.1 to 7.1.2 Using DTS:X
3. Watch native 7.1 in 7.1
4 Upconvert 7.1 to 7.1 to 7.1.2 Using DTS:X
5 Watch Dolby Atmos as intended
6 Watch DTS:X as intended.
are those correct? If so then I think I will be happy because as I said at a minimum I will have a 7.1 system. And if the atmos modules do their thing, the effect will be 
a bonus to me. I think that even going from 5.1 to 7.1 will be a nice upgrade.
Again, thanks for your help.


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Well, thanks for answering all my questions so well. I like all the answers you gave. Especially
> "So far as the processor is concerned, they're separate speakers: Front Wide and Height 1. When playing an Atmos soundtrack, the Front Wide speakers will generate sounds if a "sound object" passes through the xyz coordinates associated with Front Wide locations. Similarly, the upfiring speakers will generate sounds if a "sound object" passes through the xyz coordinates defined for "Front Dolby" speakers."
> And
> "It does include support for Front Wides and you will be able to use them."
> So at a minimum I will get 7.1 if that's all I want from my system. At most I will be getting 7.1.2. If that's the case, and I can do the following I will be happy:
> 1. Upconvert 5.1 to 7.1 Using DTS:X regardless if it is a dolby signal of some kind or DTS on DVD's. Or if its Tru-HD or DTS-MA on BR's. That for all the upconverting that I listed below.
> 2. Upconvert 5.1 to 7.1.2 Using DTS:X
> 3. Watch native 7.1 in 7.1
> 4 Upconvert 7.1 to 7.1 to 7.1.2 Using DTS:X
> 5 Watch Dolby Atmos as intended
> 6 Watch DTS:X as intended.
> are those correct? If so then I think I will be happy because as I said at a minimum I will have a 7.1 system. And if the atmos modules do their thing, the effect will be
> a bonus to me. I think that even going from 5.1 to 7.1 will be a nice upgrade.
> Again, thanks for your help.


Mike,


Conventional 7.1 recordings won't map to your new speaker layout. Your 7.1 base-layer speaker layout won't be a "conventional" 7.1 speaker layout. Conventional 7.1 is "5.1 + Rears." Yours will be "5.1 + Wides." You won't have Rears, but you will have Wides. In your room and system, rears are not going to be beneficial as your seating is against the rear wall with no room behind you to place rear speakers. Your 6th and 7th speakers will be the Wides, not the Rears. IME, Wides are far more beneficial than Rears anyway. Wides provide a fully immersive, holographic soundstage that Rears rarely provide. 



Also, you'll have the "height channels" added to the 7.1 upmixed channels. This will add even more to the sonic holograph you'll get. 



Nonetheless...


#1 will work, but the "7.1" won't have Rears, but it will have Wides and Heights. In any event, all the content you mentioned will work. 

#2 will work with same caveats as #1 

#3 won't work. You won't be able listen to 7.1 in "native" 7.1, but you'll hear Wides instead of Rears. Plus you'll hear Heights, but you'll need one of the upmixers to get all that.

#4 will work, but only by using DTS NeuralX, and instead of mapping to the Rears, NeuralX will map to Wides without Rears, plus the Heights. 

#5 will need DSU or Neural to re-route the Rear content into the Sides, and to add the Wides and Heights.
#6 will be the same as #5 



Bottom line, you'll need to re-imagine how all the content will be portryed on your new system. Also, remember, you'll still be able to listen to 2-channel in Stereo, which is one of your favorite ways to listen.


Craig


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## MIkeDuke

craig john said:


> Mike,
> 
> 
> Conventional 7.1 recordings won't map to your new speaker layout. Your 7.1 base-layer speaker layout won't be a "conventional" 7.1 speaker layout. Conventional 7.1 is "5.1 + Rears." Yours will be "5.1 + Wides." You won't have Rears, but you will have Wides. In your room and system, rears are not going to be beneficial as your seating is against the rear wall with no room behind you to place rear speakers. Your 6th and 7th speakers will be the Wides, not the Rears. IME, Wides are far more beneficial than Rears anyway. Wides provide a fully immersive, holographic soundstage that Rears rarely provide.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, you'll have the "height channels" added to the 7.1 upmixed channels. This will add even more to the sonic holograph you'll get.
> 
> 
> 
> Nonetheless...
> 
> 
> #1 will work, but the "7.1" won't have Rears, but it will have Wides and Heights. In any event, all the content you mentioned will work.
> 
> #2 will work with same caveats as #1
> 
> #3 won't work. You won't be able listen to 7.1 in "native" 7.1, but you'll hear Wides instead of Rears. Plus you'll hear Heights, but you'll need one of the upmixers to get all that.
> 
> #4 will work, but only by using DTS NeuralX, and instead of mapping to the Rears, NeuralX will map to Wides without Rears, plus the Heights.
> 
> #5 will need DSU or Neural to re-route the Rear content into the Sides, and to add the Wides and Heights.
> #6 will be the same as #5
> 
> 
> 
> Bottom line, you'll need to re-imagine how all the content will be portryed on your new system. Also, remember, you'll still be able to listen to 2-channel in Stereo, which is one of your favorite ways to listen.
> 
> 
> Craig


He Craig. Thanks for clearing so things up for me. I have seen diagrams of what a 7.1 system look like, with the 4 speakers in "back" of the room. I knew my system would not look like that but I figured since I am going to have 7 physical speakers in the room, I can call it a 7.1 system. I am assuming we can route the signals to the correct channels in the Marantz. TBH, Even with just two speakers in the back of the room, probably not in the optimal spot, I do get nice surround effects. 

So basically, I should use an umpmixer for all non-atmos or non-DTS:X. So What happens when I watch an Atmos 4k disk or DTS:X disk. Normally I just go in the menu system and select either one of those so I get the base audio. Are you saying that in addition to doing that, i will need to use an upmixer as well? Let's say I watch Jason Bourne which is a DTS:X movie. Are you saying that I select DTS:X in the menu of the disk AND select an upmixer as well. Same for Black Panther or any other Dolby Atmos disk. Are you saying that I have to select the Atmos audio in the menu of the disk AND select an upmixer.

Craig and Seldon I really appreciate your help, but Craig when we do this, you may need to baby step me how to use the system the way we are setting it up. 
Thanks for the info. Both of you .


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## MIkeDuke

This weekend the big upgrade will be done.


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## MIkeDuke

OK.
So we did the install. The only issue was that the stand company sent the wrong kind of stands. I called them up and they realized the issue. Once I bring the stands to fedex and they scan the new label, they will ship out the correct stands. For the time being we just have them sitting in the right spot, on two small tables. I really haven't listened that much but what I have done, I have been impressed. The server is also setup for 4k so I am good with that as well. All I need are the right stands and I will be all set. The amps are great. The system in 2ch also sounds awesome, which was a concern of mine since we had to move the front speakers. But the center stage I get now is insane. Can't wait until I get new stands. But I can still watch native Atmos and DTS:X movies. So that's the next plan.


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## MIkeDuke

Updated equipment list. New pic will hopefully be soon. I have watched a few movies and listened to some music. The little Wide\Atmos speakers do add more to the sound of the movies so I am happy about that. And I did not lose my center sound stage even after moving the front 1027's back so I am happy about that also. Next step is setting up the stands and properly mounting the Sib speakers. When I do that, I will take a pic of what the front of the room looks like. 
Thanks again to Craig for setting everything up.


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## MIkeDuke

To complicated to get into, but of course I think I screwed up the server. I will see when I do more tests.


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## MIkeDuke

Problem fixed


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## MIkeDuke

Little disappointed. So I have been ripping some 4k's. When I watched them from the server, I noticed that the colors were washed out a bit but I was willing to live with it for the convince. Well, I ripped The Martian. It was literally unwatchable. Mars looked so pale it wasn't even funny. I switched back to the OPPO and wow what a difference. All of my 4k's look like that but that was the worst. So I am no longer going to be using the server for 4k and just use the Oppo. Oh well. I tried. I am afraid to make any changes in any menu system because when I tried that I really screwed everything up and it took a while to get back to where it should be. I would need help anyway if I had to change cables because it's a TV+HDR thing, but I don't think it's HDR because my 4k movies looked great, and nothing like this even before I activated HDR. So that's it. I am frustrated and tired so I will just use the Oppo.


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## Selden Ball

I'm sorry that ripping 4K didn't work for you. Unfortunately I can't help directly since I've never done it myself. (I have far too many DVDs and BDs to even consider starting such a project.)

I'm sure there are people in the HTPC forum who could help in choosing the best 4K UHD computer drive and ripping software (and their settings) if you want to try again at a later date. See, for example, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-n...ng-uhd-4k-discs-makemkv-instructions-how.html


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## MIkeDuke

Hey Selden. There are only a few drives that can rip and I think I have one of the best. And as far as I know MakeMKV is the only software that broke the 4k code, even though it's not straight forward so there is no other drive or software to choose from. There is one guy who is doing it the same way I am so I can always try and ask him directly. I am just feeling dejected right now. I was all excited and then when I started watching the movies, I just felt bad. Like I did all this server upgrading for nothing. But I might ask that one guy who is doing it the way I am and see what he has to say.


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## MIkeDuke

So this weekend we do the Atmos speakers right. In case I did not mention it, the stands I first got were wrong. But I have had the right ones for a while and this weekend Craig is coming over to setup the speakers and stands for me. We will also take some new measurements I think. Plus, I think my friend who built the server figured out the other issues. The washed out look may be a settings issue. I think you have make some changes in Madvr and that should fix the issue, but it's way to complex for me but my friend said he could fix it for me. The lag may be my video card. I only have 2 GB of memory on the card and that may not be enough. They are making more powerful cards now so a switch to one of those may do the trick. We shall see later on down the road. But first we set up my Atmos speakers correctly.


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## MIkeDuke

OK.
Installation was today. It was a little more difficult then we planned but it's all working. Now I need to watch some movies. I will also take a new pic and maybe Craig will chime in with some new charts. But I am excited to hear the difference. I know it's not optimal to have the reflective style, but at least now I have wides which I think will make a difference. More to come, if I feel like it .


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## MIkeDuke

So I was able to watch two Atmos movies. They weren't 4k, this was when they were putting some BR disks with Atmos tracks. The first one was M;I Rouge Nation. That sounded great. There was some height stuff going on for sure. But one part made me say "holy ****". There is part that has a helicopter landing on the grass. Before it sounded like it just moved from the surround left speaker onto the screen. Now, it sounded like it started in the surround left speaker moved through the room ​and landed right in my room in front of me. It was crazy. But there were other parts that were great as well.

Then last night I watched Gravity. Another BR with an Atmos soundtrack. The soundtrack is pretty intense and there were parts that sounded over head and very intense with that as well. Not to mention the wide action that was going on. So I am happy camper. I can't wait to try out more Atmos, DTS:X and movies that I up convert to DTS:X.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I can't wait to try out more Atmos, DTS:X and movies that I up convert to DTS:X.


A quibble: Atmos and DTS:X are recording technologies not available to consumers. Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X are playback upmixers which expand soundtracks to make use of all available speakers in most circumstances.

Atmos and DTS:X are encoders used by people who create audio recordings to place sounds at desired locations in 3D space. Both Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X use various attributes of soundtracks (phase, amplitude and frequency, but in different ways) to expand them to occupy most or all of a sound system's speakers. Although the latter can be quite convincing, their results aren't the same as what are provided by Atmos and DTS:X.


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## MIkeDuke

I got you Seldon. I guess what I mean is I can't wait to try movies like Jason Bourne which says it has a DTS:X sound track on the disk, and Black Panther or The Last Jedi, both of which they say they have Atmos sound tracks on the 4k disks. That's all I meant. I am also looking forward to "expanding" films that are 5.1 and use the DTS:X upmixer to see how the sound. Maybe I am not saying it right, but I am happy and can't wait to try more content.


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I got you Seldon. I guess what I mean is I can't wait to try movies like Jason Bourne which says it has a DTS:X sound track on the disk, and Black Panther or The Last Jedi, both of which they say they have Atmos sound tracks on the 4k disks. That's all I meant. I am also looking forward to "expanding" films that are 5.1 and use the DTS:X upmixer to see how the sound. Maybe I am not saying it right, but I am happy and can't wait to try more content.


I understand. Most Atmos and DTS:X movies have very good soundtracks, although some audio mixers and directors are still in the process of learning how best to use the overhead dimension.

It's also sometimes hard to keep the upmixers separate from true Atmos and DTS:X. They're very, very good.

Have fun!


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## MIkeDuke

Oh, I will have a lot of fun.
Thanks Selden.


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## MIkeDuke

Updated the first pic
And here is the room split up


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## MIkeDuke

And one more of the listing position


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## MIkeDuke

So here is a something interesting. Normally I watch loud movies on my own. And I have the Crowson so I get extra shake from that. Well, a day or two ago I thought something was wrong with my sub. When I ran the test tone through my preamp I barely heard it so I started to panic. I watched King Aurthur: Legend of the sword which I like, and there some bass in there but nothing outrageous. Then last night I was still worried so I put on the test I always use to test my sub. The intro to Edge of Tomorrow. But I had another person in the room with me as well. I only had it at -18. Boy howdy is this thing working. The sweep was incredible. The other person was standing up and they said that they felt the bass through the floor. Not only that, but they swore they saw the floor moving. Now I can not confirm or deny that part but this person said it multiple times. So the SubMersive HP is still rocking my room after having it for 11 years. Just wanted to share that little tid bit.


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## ambesolman

MIkeDuke said:


> Here is a picture with my old TV.That was a big 34in Sony TV
> 
> http://cdn.avsforum.com/6/6e/6e98dc8f_vbattach199340.jpeg


Not to dig up an ancient post, but I was just looking at your setup and I had the same 34" sony trinitron tv and only donated it a couple years ago when one of the cathodes went out and the picture got all blue and smurfy. Had it for 5yrs before I even saw an HD pic on it, but what a picture. Every friend i had to help move it still curses me about having to help carry it to this day.


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## MIkeDuke

ambesolman said:


> Not to dig up an ancient post, but I was just looking at your setup and I had the same 34" sony trinitron tv and only donated it a couple years ago when one of the cathodes went out and the picture got all blue and smurfy. Had it for 5yrs before I even saw an HD pic on it, but what a picture. Every friend i had to help move it still curses me about having to help carry it to this day.


Yea, that thing was a beast (heavy as anything). It did have great picture quality. It served me well for a number of years also. Thanks for stopping by.


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## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> So here is a something interesting. Normally I watch loud movies on my own. And I have the Crowson so I get extra shake from that. Well, a day or two ago I thought something was wrong with my sub. When I ran the test tone through my preamp I barely heard it so I started to panic. I watched King Aurthur: Legend of the sword which I like, and there some bass in there but nothing outrageous. Then last night I was still worried so I put on the test I always use to test my sub. The intro to Edge of Tomorrow. But I had another person in the room with me as well. I only had it at -18. Boy howdy is this thing working. The sweep was incredible. The other person was standing up and they said that they felt the bass through the floor. Not only that, but they swore they saw the floor moving. Now I can not confirm or deny that part but this person said it multiple times. So the SubMersive HP is still rocking my room after having it for 11 years. Just wanted to share that little tid bit.


FWIW, Disney has gotten a reputation for neutering the soundtracks on their discs.

If you like movies with lots of bass, you might take a look at the thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-...mate-list-bass-movies-w-frequency-charts.html


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## MIkeDuke

Yea I know. Disney has really messed that up. That is a cool list, as well as the one on databass.com. I do use both of them to see what the measurements are. for me though, what I have noticed is, as long as it's not a cliff, and it just slopes down granted at a lower level, I will feel it with the Crowson. Ex, people complain about The Avengers first movie. With the Crowson, I can get some shake with low bass that is in the movie just a much lower level. But I think I was underwhelmed with Black Panther. It's OK though, I still have plenty of non-Disney movies that have bass and shake the room and Crowson .


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> So here is a something interesting. Normally I watch loud movies on my own. And I have the Crowson so I get extra shake from that. Well, a day or two ago I thought something was wrong with my sub. When I ran the test tone through my preamp I barely heard it so I started to panic. I watched King Aurthur: Legend of the sword which I like, and there some bass in there but nothing outrageous. Then last night I was still worried so I put on the test I always use to test my sub. The intro to Edge of Tomorrow. But I had another person in the room with me as well. I only had it at -18. Boy howdy is this thing working. The sweep was incredible. The other person was standing up and they said that they felt the bass through the floor. Not only that, but they swore they saw the floor moving. Now I can not confirm or deny that part but this person said it multiple times. So the SubMersive HP is still rocking my room after having it for 11 years. Just wanted to share that little tid bit.


IIRC, on your pre/pro, the test tones are played back at whatever volume the MVC is set to. If the MVC is set at -20, the test tones will not be very loud, especially the subwoofer tone. If you want to "hear" the subwoofer when you play the subwoofer test tone, you need to turn up the MVC. To hear it at full Reference Level, you need to set the MVC to "0". However, I don't suggest doing that. Just turn itto -10 or -12 and you'll hear your sub on the test tones just fine. DO NOT change the subwoofer trim though or you'll lose the calibration. 



Craig


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## MIkeDuke

OH.
OK Craig. That makes sense. It just seemed weird that's all. I am not changing the sub trim. But if I wanted to, could I experiment with the Atmos part pf my Atmos speaker just to see if I notice more of a difference? And then if I want, put it back to the original setting without losing the overall calibration?


----------



## craig john

Just write down all your settings, (Levels, Distances, Crossovers, etc.) BEFORE you change anything. There may be a way to "save" your current settings and get them back later, but I'm not sure how to do it. Check your manual for more info.


Craig


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## Selden Ball

You have an AV7702MkII, right? That model lets you save and restore its settings by using its Web interface to and from a computer. It has some problems though: some browsers work better than others, you have to disable "network on in standby" and cycle its power before doing a save, and once in a while the saveset is invalid and contains all zeros, so you have to check for that, too. When it works properly, saving and restoring each take about 10 minutes.

Despite all these issues, some people do it regularly when switching between Atmos and Auro-3D speaker configurations, for example.


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## audioguy

Mike: After looking at your first post and the picture of the front of your room, looks to me like you have room on the front wall for about an 80" flat panel. Could be a great Christmas gift from you to you !!


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## MIkeDuke

audioguy said:


> Mike: After looking at your first post and the picture of the front of your room, looks to me like you have room on the front wall for about an 80" flat panel. Could be a great Christmas gift from you to you !!


You're right Chuck. But it won't happen unless I get a great secret Santa .
TBH, I think I am getting more from the wide part of the speaker then the Atmos part of the speaker. That's fine though. It still sounds really good and at least I have a 7.1 system. I do hear sound more prominent in the back of the room though. But I can't tell if that is the Atmos speakers, or just the kick ass job Craig did calibrating my system including the rears. I need someone else to listen as well. Hopefully Craig and maybe someone else can come down for a listen. But I watched Deadpool 2 and thought it sounded really good.


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## MIkeDuke

I don't know if anybody in here knows this, but there was an update to the 7702mkII but it was so fast for me to read that I could not see what it was. Anybody know what it was?
Thanks


----------



## Selden Ball

MIkeDuke said:


> I don't know if anybody in here knows this, but there was an update to the 7702mkII but it was so fast for me to read that I could not see what it was. Anybody know what it was?
> Thanks


There have been updates recently for D&M's 2015 models (including the AV7702mkII) to support Dolby Vision. (Which is a higher quality alternative to the 4K video feature High Dynamic Range.) That might have been what you noticed.


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## Selden Ball

Yup:


jdsmoothie said:


> The remaining upper level 2015 Marantz models (SR6010, SR7010, AV7702MKII) received the DV/HLG/ALLM and Pandora fix updates today.


HLG = Hybrid Log Gamma (another alternative to HDR)
ALLM = Auto Low Latency Mode (for gamers)


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks Selden. So my preamp now supports DV? That's cool. And HLG? Another video "thing". So at least my preamp and OPPO support DV. But my TV does not. I am OK with that though. I watched Star Trek Beyond 4k last night and it looked awesome so I am still satisfied with the video.
Thanks for letting me know.


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## MIkeDuke

Again, I know I don't post much any more because I don't have that much to say, unless it's Atmos related. Well, I just watched the DVD version of American Gangster. It is the last film I would expect to have a height feeling but it did. It sounded much better than I expected. I still have more movies to get and watch. Again, overall I finding out that it depends movie by movie. And of course AG was matrixed. And it still sounded good. I am interested in hearing how Sicario 2 sounds which is 4k and Atnos. So far so good. I do think it needs a bit of tweaking though, but I will leave that to Craig. Or maybe it's just the differences in movies. I wish I could do it the right way, but it just not work in my room. I also can't wait to check out Jurassic World Fallen Kingdom. I hope that has a good soundtrack as well. I may have video questions but I would not know where to start with them. The video for 4k looks great to me so I will probably leave well enough alone.


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## Kain

MIkeDuke said:


> Again, I know I don't post much any more because I don't have that much to say, unless it's Atmos related. Well, I just watched the DVD version of American Gangster. It is the last film I would expect to have a height feeling but it did. It sounded much better than I expected. I still have more movies to get and watch. Again, overall I finding out that it depends movie by movie. And of course AG was matrixed. And it still sounded good. I am interested in hearing how Sicario 2 sounds which is 4k and Atnos. So far so good. I do think it needs a bit of tweaking though, but I will leave that to Craig. Or maybe it's just the differences in movies. I wish I could do it the right way, but it just not work in my room. I also can't wait to check out Jurassic World Fallen Kingdom. I hope that has a good soundtrack as well. I may have video questions but I would not know where to start with them. The video for 4k looks great to me so I will probably leave well enough alone.


Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom has an awesome sound mix.


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## MIkeDuke

Yea, I just watched it. It was mixed very well. Good detail all around and very nice bass. Even with my reflecting Atmos speakers, I got some height placement. I will give that one another watch for sure.


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## maxsteel85

Awesome setups


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks Max. Appreciate the props .


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## MIkeDuke

So I watched Sicario 2 over the weekend, And overall I was impressed. First the picture. I thought it looked great. It may not be real 4k but the detail was there for me. I was very pleased with how it looked. Overall I was pleased with the audio. Plenty of action and even a little overhead sounds from the helicopters. I would say it was a well done soundtrack. The only thing I though it was lacking was really great deep explosive bass. I mean it was good but not earth moving. But it is one that I will watch again for sure. Maybe a little louder next time. But as I said before, the Atmos was pretty good.


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## MIkeDuke

Craig, if you make it in here, maybe we can just watch an Atmos movie, or one that it up-converted and you can give me your thoughts. Also, maybe bring your stuff so if we need to adjust we can. But first, I would like to spend the day at your place listing to the way Atmos should be done. Do you mind doing that?
P.S @craig john


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## MIkeDuke

So, I know this is still a thread for me, but I thought I would give an update. I told a friend about my color issue. My system is setup different from his though. Anyway, he did some research and found out that a Nivida Shield may fix my color issue. Well, it did. Now I have the shield setup connected to my Marantz. I am also using Plex instead of Jriver. The combo of Plex and the shield fixed my issue. Now 4k rips look fantastic. I can back to ripping again. And the whole setup is pretty easy to use. I am so glad I can rip 4k now. Still, getting that hash file and replacing it every once in awhile is a pain but I will deal with it. Anyway, I am %100 good to go now. I just wish I got a bit more Atmos feeling but it sounds fine to me and that's what matters.


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## MIkeDuke

I know it's just me, but that's OK. So it's been a while. I ripped about 20 4k disks. Makemkv made it so you don't have to do the separate hash file any more. You can set the program up to automatically go out and look for the file. It makes it so much easier now. So far, only Starwars The Last Jedi has still been a problem but I will still keep trying. 4k looks really good. Plus, it sounds good as well. Certain movies give more of Atmos feel but I am satisfied. And maybe, just maybe, I will at some point upgrade to a 65" instead pf my 55". But that won't be until sometime in 2020 at least. I am still happy with this setup. Of course I dream. Who doesn't. But I am still happy.


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## MIkeDuke

Yep, it's me, again. I have what to me is a significant upgrade. When comparing to Craig's, or Chuck's or that Home Theater of the decade, it's kind of a small deal, but to my room, I consider it an upgrade. I will keep it under wraps until I figure out how to do it and when it's done.


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## MIkeDuke

I still have that significant upgrade (to me at least) on the way, but the virus kind of put that on hold. I do have another question if anybody is in here. I am debating if I should try real atmos speakers instead of the bouncing of the ceiling kind I am using now. The only issue is I can't do IN ceiling speakers. I won't get into why, I just can't. I was thinking of just adding 2 speakers for the atmos. It may be enough. The thing is, are there speakers that can be mounted ON the ceiling instead. Can that be done? What kind of speakers should I use. Should I also really think about using 4 in my room if choose to do it? I think two would be easier and neater when it comes to cable management. Also, can I use something like this https://www.focal.com/us/high-fidelity-speakers/aria-900/aria-sr-900? If I only use two speakers or would they have to be just single driver speakers like https://www.focal.com/us/high-fidelity-speakers/chorus-700/chorus-sr-700. I think the bookshelf type speakers would look too bulky. That's if I can do it all and if it would make a difference.
Any thoughts are welcome. The only other option are speakers like this https://www.focal.com/us/high-fidelity-speakers/chorus-600/chorus-605. Or see if I can mount these on the ceiling because it looks like the can be mounted o the wall. https://www.focal.com/us/home-theater/sib-evo/sib-evo-20So... Thoughts?


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## Archaea

MIkeDuke said:


> I still have that significant upgrade (to me at least) on the way, but the virus kind of put that on hold. I do have another question if anybody is in here. I am debating if I should try real atmos speakers instead of the bouncing of the ceiling kind I am using now. The only issue is I can't do IN ceiling speakers. I won't get into why, I just can't. I was thinking of just adding 2 speakers for the atmos. It may be enough. The thing is, are there speakers that can be mounted ON the ceiling instead. Can that be done? What kind of speakers should I use. Should I also really think about using 4 in my room if choose to do it? I think two would be easier and neater when it comes to cable management. Also, can I use something like this https://www.focal.com/us/high-fidelity-speakers/aria-900/aria-sr-900? If I only use two speakers or would they have to be just single driver speakers like https://www.focal.com/us/high-fidelity-speakers/chorus-700/chorus-sr-700. I think the bookshelf type speakers would look too bulky. That's if I can do it all and if it would make a difference.
> Any thoughts are welcome. The only other option are speakers like this https://www.focal.com/us/high-fidelity-speakers/chorus-600/chorus-605. Or see if I can mount these on the ceiling because it looks like the can be mounted o the wall. https://www.focal.com/us/home-theater/sib-evo/sib-evo-20So... Thoughts?


Yes true atmos speakers will be significantly better than the bounce off ceiling variety, but you know that already. 😉

I think with Atmos ceiling speakers, 2 ceiling speakers just slightly in front of the main listening position gets you 85-90% of the quality of 4 ceiling speakers. I’ve tried two and four ceiling speakers arrangements in my room of three different speaker designs. I decided I liked front wides and 2 ceiling speakers more than 4 ceiling speakers and no front wides. So no, four ceiling speakers is not necessary for a solid Atmos or DTS-X presentation!

Matching speakers to your existing speakers is worth investigating if possible - even for the ceiling speakers. Especially in Atmos demos, you want the “object” to sound the same as it moves between the speakers fluidly in the context of the Atmos object based audio. Could you figure out how to mount the identical speaker to your existing surround speaker on the ceiling?

I’ve only heard six ceiling speakers at trade shows, but beyond 2 its definitely diminishing returns in the several home theaters I’ve visited with Atmos. (for sure with single seating row.)


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks for detailed reply Jonathan . I appreciate it. My current surround speakers are Focal Chorus 705v's. Focal doesn't even make them anymore. This is the closest they have 
https://www.focal.com/us/high-fidelity-speakers/chorus-700/chorus-706
But it's a big bulky bookshelf speaker and I don't know how that would look in my room. I mean I would't even know how or if they could be mounted like that. 
Something like this is a bit smaller and may not look as bad but it's not a 700 series like I have now
https://www.focal.com/us/high-fidelity-speakers/chorus-600/chorus-605
I don't know. Maybe I should give up on the thought of real atmos . Because I would not know how hard it would be to do what I want to do. 
I mean, that SR one I mentioned above would look better and might be close enough. Or those little sib speakers. Again, I just don't know. 
I don't have a big room like you do or other people do and the fact that I can't go into the ceiling is make things more difficult. If I can get Craig
over here, maybe he can tell me if it's really possible since he has been in my room so many times. Maybe I should just give up because it's too hard and
there are other forces at work here. But you never know, and I do thank you for you input.


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## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Thanks for detailed reply Jonathan . I appreciate it. My current surround speakers are Focal Chorus 705v's. Focal doesn't even make them anymore. This is the closest they have
> https://www.focal.com/us/high-fidelity-speakers/chorus-700/chorus-706
> But it's a big bulky bookshelf speaker and I don't know how that would look in my room. I mean I would't even know how or if they could be mounted like that.
> Something like this is a bit smaller and may not look as bad but it's not a 700 series like I have now
> https://www.focal.com/us/high-fidelity-speakers/chorus-600/chorus-605
> I don't know. Maybe I should give up on the thought of real atmos . Because I would not know how hard it would be to do what I want to do.
> I mean, that SR one I mentioned above would look better and might be close enough. Or those little sib speakers. Again, I just don't know.
> I don't have a big room like you do or other people do and the fact that I can't go into the ceiling is make things more difficult. If I can get Craig
> over here, maybe he can tell me if it's really possible since he has been in my room so many times. Maybe I should just give up because it's too hard and
> there are other forces at work here. But you never know, and I do thank you for you input.


Hi Mike, (and Jonathan),

The biggest problem for Atmos in Mike's room is the mandatory placements of his surrounds. There is a door to the immediate left of the listening position which dictates that the left side surround needs to be mounted up high above the door. This provides *very* little height separation between his side surrounds and his Atmos speakers, which are reflective off the ceiling. In addition, his family's reluctance to cut holes in the walls precludes the installation of top, (overhead) speakers. In any event, whether the speakers are reflective or ceiling mounted is less of an issue than the lack of height separation between the side surrounds and heights. Without a complete reconfiguration of his entire room, or a new room altogether, the prospect for a "reference" Atmos installation is not ideal. 

Having said that, I think we can probably improve on Mikes current situation. When I first installed his Atmos system, I had limited test material and calibration was limited to the Audyssey system in his pre/pro. Placement of the Atmos-enabled speakers was done by ear, and my ear was relatively inexperience with Atmos at that point. I now have some external test tones that can aid in the optimal placement of the Atmos-enabled speakers to improve the reflected cone of sound to his listening position. I just need to get back up there. It's on my list as soon as this virus goes away. We have another project we need to get going as well, which will be a... on second thought, I'll let Mike reveal it when he's ready. 

In the meantime, he does have the benefit of his Wides, which as Jonathan said, are worth the price of the upgrade all by themselves. 

Craig


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## Archaea

Hi Craig. Long time! Glad you are well!

If Craig is on the case I’m sure he can assist quite capably. His room still stands out as one of my favorites I’ve visited. 

If you can’t cut into your ceiling and you end up wanting to install ceiling speakers, a simple mount mechanism like this screwed into the back of your bookshelves (make sure and don’t hit the crossover board - remove woofer to verify where you attach mount is clear) and a joist in the ceiling (found using a stud finder) is an easy path. Hiding the wires may be more of a challenge if you aren’t allowed to cut a hole, fish the wire, and then refinish the drywall. You could look into a cable raceway, or white flat ribbon speaker wire with adhesive backing as an alternative.


Monoprice 106839 Adjustable 33 lb. Capacity Speaker Wall Mount Brackets (Pair) Black https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004C4XN86/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_qjhPEbXHGRS2K


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks for stopping by Craig. I knew you would set me straight. It was just a dream. I will be interested in seeing what he has in mind for the wide/Atmos speakers. But I will say that adding wides was a big upgrade. If Craig is right and the fact that my surrounds and atmos speakers will be at the same plane of listing, and that would hamper the result, well, that is that I guess. I will have to rely on a nice re-cal via Craig since he has more experience now with Atmos systems. 

But you know me Craig, I know my room will never become a "reference" room and I am OK with that. I was dreaming of a little more. Craig. I mean when I look at Chuck's room, your room and Johnathan's room, how can I not think like that. Anyway, we shall see, but speakers on the ceiling will probably not work and I will be happy with a 7.1 system that aims to be a 7.1.2 system .

P.S Johnathan, I was think of running speaker wire along the ceiling as well. Again, this is just a dream that will probably not come true. But another visit from Craig with his Calibration skills will probably make a pretty big difference on it's own.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback.


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## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Thanks for stopping by Craig. I knew you would set me straight. It was just a dream. I will be interested in seeing what he has in mind for the wide/Atmos speakers. But I will say that adding wides was a big upgrade. If Craig is right and the fact that my surrounds and atmos speakers will be at the same plane of listing, and that would hamper the result, well, that is that I guess. I will have to rely on a nice re-cal via Craig since he has more experience now with Atmos systems.
> 
> But you know me Craig, I know my room will never become a "reference" room and I am OK with that. I was dreaming of a little more. Craig. I mean when I look at Chuck's room, your room and Johnathan's room, how can I not think like that. Anyway, we shall see, but speakers on the ceiling will probably not work and I will be happy with a 7.1 system that aims to be a 7.1.2 system .
> 
> P.S Johnathan, I was think of running speaker wire along the ceiling as well. Again, this is just a dream that will probably not come true. But another visit from Craig with his Calibration skills will probably make a pretty big difference on it's own.
> Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback.


Hi Mike,

I forget... which codec are you using for upmixing 5.1 content to add the Wides and Heights? DSU, (Dolby Surround Upmixer), won't provide a signal to the Wides. DTS Neural:X should, but the manual doesn't say it will for sure. If you're not using DTS Neural:X, I suggest you try it.

If all else fails, you can use Audyssey DSX, but that is not the most optimal solution.

Try DTS Neural:X if you're not already using it.

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

I am using DTS Neural:X for everything that isn't object based like Atmos or DTS:X. When I check what speakers are active by hitting a button on the Marantz, it shows that all the speakers (wide and Atmos) are active. Again, I really like the wides. Well, with real atmos out of the question, I guess I will just wait to see if Craig learned some new tricks to make it sound even better.


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## MIkeDuke

I have had it for a while but last night was the the first time I watched it all the way through. If you want to give your system a work out, I suggest Deep Water Horizon. Wow what a sonic experience. The bass is insane in that movie so if you have the capability for low loud bass, I suggest you strap in. Plus the other sounds in the other speakers were equally impressive. There was sound everywhere. I could not tell if my Wide speakers and Atmos speakers contributed much but man was it a visceral experience. Plus it's a great movie. If the movie represents what really happened, then it was hell on earth. But it was a fantastic movie none the less and demo material everywhere, Plus the pq was great also. Highly recommended. If Craig, Johnathan Chuck, or anybody else with a seriously capable system are in here, if you have not watched this film, it's a must. 
And I only have one Submersive HP and one Crowson. With speakers that are probably not made for true HT like you guys have. But it still sounded great.


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## MIkeDuke

I know this is only for me because my thread does not get much traffic. But this weekend a change is a coming.


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## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> I know this is only for me because my thread does not get much traffic. But this weekend a change is a coming.


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## MIkeDuke

Well, the change was going from a 55" TV to a 65" TV. I got the LG CX65. The picture looks a lot better than my Samsung. Watching hi def cable looks really good and I have only watched one dvd rip so far. It was very nice. A lot better than my Samsung. But I do plan on getting it calibrated as well. As for the size, well, it plenty big for my room. When you go to display wars, you get the idea that the difference won't be HUGE. But it is. I think it's a combination of my last TV having a little border and this one does not and just the increase in size. I am very excited to watch some more movies on it. I watched Collateral (DVD) and it looked a lot better on this then on the Samsung.
More updates to come...


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## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> Well, the change was going from a 55" TV to a 65" TV. I got the LG CX65. The picture looks a lot better than my Samsung. Watching hi def cable looks really good and I have only watched one dvd rip so far. It was very nice. A lot better than my Samsung. But I do plan on getting it calibrated as well. As for the size, well, it plenty big for my room. When you go to display wars, you get the idea that the difference won't be HUGE. But it is. I think it's a combination of my last TV having a little border and this one does not and just the increase in size. I am very excited to watch some more movies on it. I watched Collateral (DVD) and it looked a lot better on this then on the Samsung.
> More updates to come...


Hi Mike congrats in the new TV. Thats an OLED, correct? Looking forward in seeing some pics


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## MIkeDuke

Yep. It's an OLED. Last night I was able to watch Rise of The Planet of The Apes (BR rip). Wow did it look fantastic. The colors were so rich and deep. And the blacks were, well, black. But the colors also looked amazing. When they zoom into Caesar's eyes you could see all the hues. Plus the redwood forest, the trees look so good. Just over all detail was incredible. Plus, like I said, the size difference really is a surprise. I know if you go by the numbers, it doesn't seem like a lot. But in my room it is. Yep, I am one happy camper. Next step is to watch a 4k rip. Pics won't happen for a bit though. But I will get them up when I can. 
Thanks for stopping by Frank.


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## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> Yep. It's an OLED. Last night I was able to watch Rise of The Planet of The Apes (BR rip). Wow did it look fantastic. The colors were so rich and deep. And the blacks were, well, black. But the colors also looked amazing. When they zoom into Caesar's eyes you could see all the hues. Plus the redwood forest, the trees look so good. Just over all detail was incredible. Plus, like I said, the size difference really is a surprise. I know if you go by the numbers, it doesn't seem like a lot. But in my room it is. Yep, I am one happy camper. Next step is to watch a 4k rip. Pics won't happen for a bit though. But I will get them up when I can.
> 
> Thanks for stopping by Frank.




Planet of the apes is a great film  looking forward in seeing the pics


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## MIkeDuke

This will be short because there is not much to say. 4k=AWESOME. I watched Venom and it was incredible. Take what I said about BR movies and multiply it by 75 and that's how good 4k looks on this TV.
That's it. End of story. And that's without it really being fully calibrated. I may, I may not. I am not sure yet.


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## BrolicBeast

Hey man, congrats on your new TV purchase! 4k is NEXT LEVEL awesomeness on a great display. Looks like you have one. Please snap some photos with your phone and show us how it looks in your setup! 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Franin

MIkeDuke said:


> This will be short because there is not much to say. 4k=AWESOME. I watched Venom and it was incredible. Take what I said about BR movies and multiply it by 75 and that's how good 4k looks on this TV.
> 
> That's it. End of story. And that's without it really being fully calibrated. I may, I may not. I am not sure yet.




Yes 4K is the way too go Mike. I still use Blu rays on my projector but have collected a good number 4k UHD


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## MIkeDuke

BrolicBeast said:


> Hey man, congrats on your new TV purchase! 4k is NEXT LEVEL awesomeness on a great display. Looks like you have one. Please snap some photos with your phone and show us how it looks in your setup!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Hey, thanks for stopping by Matt. This is so much better than the Samsung 4k TV I had. I will get pics up when I can.


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## MIkeDuke

I have only seen a little 4k on this TV Frank, but the OLED is SO much better than the edge lit Samsung I had. I can't wait to watch all sorts of content on this thing. Even regular cable looks great. But I am looking forward to watching DVD's BR's and more 4k disks with this TV.


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## MIkeDuke

OK. An update. There was an incident with one of my amps when Craig was installing the TV. Purely an accident, but I am getting the amp re-installed this weekend. So I really have not watched 4k. But regular TV DVD and BR rips look great. I have seen some 4k on it and that is just mind blowing. I can't wait to get the amp back so I can watch some more 4k with the full audio.

Second part is I am going to sell my turn table. Unfortunately I never used it as much as I had hoped and the string that drives the platter broke. I can't fix that on my own. It was then that I realized that a TT really is not for me. But look for a new pic with my new TV once I get the amp connected again. I can't wait to watch more 4k on it.


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## DMark1

MIkeDuke said:


> OK. An update. There was an incident with one of my amps when Craig was installing the TV. Purely an accident, but I am getting the amp re-installed this weekend. So I really have not watched 4k. But regular TV DVD and BR rips look great. I have seen some 4k on it and that is just mind blowing. I can't wait to get the amp back so I can watch some more 4k with the full audio.
> 
> Second part is I am going to sell my turn table. Unfortunately I never used it as much as I had hoped and the string that drives the platter broke. I can't fix that on my own. It was then that I realized that a TT really is not for me. But look for a new pic with my new TV once I get the amp connected again. I can't wait to watch more 4k on it.


Glad to hear that your amplifier is getting re-installed this weekend!


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## MIkeDuke

Yea Dennis. It will be great to have everything going in it's full glory.


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## MIkeDuke

Amp re-install successful. The audio is simply amazing. We did some stuff with the video, and it made BR really smooth looking. I have been talking with Craig and he said he did not see any Soap Opera effect. So maybe I just need to get used to it. It does look really fantastic now. BR's really shine. So, after more content, maybe another post.


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## MIkeDuke

I know I have not posted in here in quite a while. But hopefully that will change. I know have 99 UHD disks and they all look great. I will report how many hours I have on it. But with multiple viewing habits I have yet to have any I.M or burn in. I don't know what else to say except the picture looks great with all mediums. 

Plus the sound with the wide\atmos speakers really do make a difference. It sounds so much bigger. I do get great front to back pans and even though they are bouncy speakers, the Atmos still is there. Like I said, I will try and get a picture, maybe the weekend.


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## MIkeDuke

Here is what my room looks like with the 65". I know it's not 120" or 130" or 150". but it doesn't look too bad. For me to go bigger I would need to build a riser under
my chairs. But that's it. I know it's not like a major theater, but it gets the job done.


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## ambesolman

MIkeDuke said:


> Here is what my room looks like with the 65". I know it's not 120" or 130" or 150". but it doesn't look too bad. For me to go bigger I would need to build a riser under
> my chairs. But that's it. I know it's not like a major theater, but it gets the job done.
> View attachment 3115592
> View attachment 3115588


Nice! What are those things on the floor in front of your speakers? Couple of NAS or something? Thought about pulling the speakers out and putting those behind them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MIkeDuke

Yea, I thought about it, but it's really a small space and for one, I don't trust myself reaching behind the speaker to get to the RAID(s). Second, the speakers are freaking heavy for me and I have them on coaster like objects and to try and organize the speakers with the spikes would be a nightmare. I already broke one speaker spike trying to move it and it was a pain. They are in the corners, yes, but there is still some space between the speakers and the walls. Plus, when I listen to 2ch music, the sound stage is still really good. It does sound like the music comes from the middle of the room. I know it's not idea, and I have heard my system without that sound stage when I had a big wall unit and speakers in the corner. When I pulled them out then, I heard a huge difference. I still get that same effect so for now, since there is no one to help me, well there is but I don't want to ask for something like this, I think things will stay as they are. 

Ideally I would think about maybe putting the raids on my shelf with equipment. That would allow me to maybe pull the speakers more forward. But I just don't have the space. Also, the TV is so thin, and the "equipment rack" is positioned in such a way that there really is nothing between the speakers. So, like I said, I still get a great sound stage. 

Thanks for stopping by though and sharing your thoughts. I have a small room and I just have to make due. I should have put this in what is now my bedroom. That would have afforded me more options but at the time I never thought I would be at the place I am at now. So as they say, it is what it is.


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## craig john

Mike,

When we set the system up, we talked about moving the speakers forward and putting the RAID's further back or on the equipment rack. We decided on the current arrangement for specific reasons that were pertinent at the time. We were fully aware of the potential issues that could arise with the corner placements and the partial blockage of the equipment rack, as well as reflections off of it. If you want to redo things and move the speakers forward, we would just need to find a spot on the rack for the Marantz pre/pro so could move the RAID's up there. You have a spot on the lower right that is unused. Would that work? Is that space tall enough?

Remember that one downside to moving the L/R's forward is that it would decrease the separation between the fronts and the Wides. 

Another thing we could do is to put some absorption on the side walls at the early reflection points. I have a couple of 2' x 4' acoustic panels that I'm not using. I could bring them up and see if they help. They're dark red GOM fabric, which wouldn't match your current panels, but might be a nice contrast. They're the same color as these:










Let me know what you think.

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks for chiming in Craig. 
First, regarding the raids, they are way too tall to be put on the lower shelf. So that's that. And Now that I think about it putting the Raids on the top shelf would really just take away from the TV itself. I think it would make that shelf too "busy" and would crowed out the TV. Plus the Raids are kind of heavy and I am just not sure about all that weight on the top shelf.

And you are right. We did talk about moving the fronts more but now I remember you saying that it would interfere with wide\Atmos speakers. 

I know it may not be optimal, but it does sound pretty damn good. I just wish I could place my surrounds in the correct space. At the time, I thought they had to be high up. I did not realize that ear level was a better option. I still get good surround action but I am sure it would better if they were in a more "correct" spot. I do have an idea but it's kind of hard to describe on line and it would be even harder to implement. 

TBH, all in all, it sounds pretty awesome. I watched Tenet 4k the other night. I set my volume level to -16 now on startup and that's normally where I watch movies. It strikes a nice balance of being loud but not too loud (most of the time). If I need to because I am watching with other people I will make adjustments either way. But back to Tenet. Holy crap. At -16 that was quite the experience. The bass was so intense. But overall it was fine for me. There was someone else on the first floor and they said that it was so freaking loud. They were really worried that I may cause damage to the ceiling (my floor). So for that movie I will put it at -20 and probably still really enjoy it.

As far as the treatments go, we can just try them to see if they make a noticeable change, but like I said, I am pretty happy with how things sound now. I know I mentioned about my surrounds before but I do get nice effects from them and when you combine that with the Atmos, there are times when sounds move around the room be it from back to front or front to back. In addition just over all ambient sounds quite good. Another ex: We watched The Equalizer (BR). That sounded really good as well. When everything calms down we need to meet up. I need to check your system out and then you can come down and reacquaint your self with the sound of mine. 

But thanks for your thoughts Craig.


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## MIkeDuke

Well, about week ago, my current power conditioner sort of half died. Some outlets work and some don't. So I talked to Craig and we decided to just get a new one. So I got a 
Furman Elite-15 PF filtering and power conditioner. Craig is going to connect a new Furman Elite 15 PFi tomorrow. It should go smoothly.


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## ambesolman

MIkeDuke said:


> Well, about week ago, my current power conditioner sort of half died. Some outlets work and some don't. So I talked to Craig and we decided to just get a new one. So I got a
> Furman Elite-15 PF filtering and power conditioner. Craig is going to connect a new Furman Elite 15 PFi tomorrow. It should go smoothly.


My monster conditioner crapped out on me a year or so ago. At Christmas I got a UPS since our power goes out more often than I’d like and it’s worked great. Would there be any benefit to me adding a furman or similar or would it be redundant?

Current equipment:

Samsung 60f5500 plasma
Oppo 103d
PS3 phat
Marantz 5013
Emotiva upa 200 2ch amp
NAS
Bluesound Node 2
Att fiber router
AppleTV


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## craig john

So, we had some fun at Mike's place yesterday. I went there to hook up a new Furman power conditioner after his APC unit failed. It took about 20 minutes to take care of that little issue, and then we started playing. I had brought along a pair of acoustic absorption panels to try out to see what effect they might have. We placed them in the following 2 spots to absorb the first reflection points off the side wall, thus:









We then listened to some music to try to determine if we could hear an effect, and if we thought the effect was beneficial or detrimental. Mike chose a song by the Allman Brothers that started out with dueling guitars, one in each of the L and R speakers, and eventually had the drums and voices in the central phantom image. I will describe what I heard, and then hopefully Mike will chime in with what he heard... and preferred.

My thoughts:

First let me start by describing Mike's room a little better... It's not a huge room being about 12' x 13'. His seating is against the rear wall. We've done a lot of work over the years to achieve an optimal response in his room, including speaker placements and toe-in, significant acoustic treatments with absorption and bass trapping, as well as Audyssey XT32 Room Correction. However, there was no absorption at the sidewall first reflection points. I've always wondered how the sound might change with some absorption there, so this was a chance to try some out. 

Listening to this song in 2-channel with the subwoofer engaged and without the panels in place, it sounded very good with a wider sound stage than the size of the front wall. There was a clear and distinct separation of the two guitars and their imaging was precise, but not would I would call "pinpoint". Placing the panels at the first reflection points clearly changed the sound for me. The width of the soundstage became narrower, but the imaging became more focused and precise. The difference to me was like waving my hand and saying the guitar is coming from ...there..., as opposed to pointing my finger at a spot and saying the image is coming from exactly "there!" IOW, it became "pinpoint" with the panels in place. In addition, the center phantom image became more focused as well with the panels in place. To me, this exercise clearly confirmed Floyd Toole's assertion that the first reflections off the side wall impact the "spaciousness" of the soundfield, and absorbing them reduces that spaciousness. However, he rarely mentions the impact that absorbing the first reflections has on the precision of the imaging, but this little experiment clearly demonstrated it, at least to me. (For anyone interested, I've attached a document by Toole that discusses his findings and thoughts a lot of this):





Sound Reproduction


A Routledge Companion Website




routledgetextbooks.com




(Download Part 1 to read about room acoustics and their impact on sound quality.)
For me, this was the most important finding of the day: that absorbing the sidewall first reflections impacts the sound as much as it did, in one way being beneficial and in another way being detrimental.

However, we also did some other testing. We tried two of the multi-channel upmixers available in Mike's pre/pro, Dolby Surround Upmixer, and DTS Neo:X. These upmixers engaged his 2 front Atmos upfiring speakers and his Wides. We also tried these with and without the panels in place. My favorite turned out to be Neo:X with the panels in place. That setup did very little to the front soundstage and retained the most precise, pinpoint L/R imaging. It also had the most precise central image as it engaged the center speaker, (far better than the phantom 2-channel image), the widest front soundstage and the best "ambiance enhancement" of any listening test we did. It had a significant effect on the "immersiveness" of the sound. The apparent a "size" of the acoustic space was significantly bigger, and the sound seemed to envelope the listener much more. The most apparent change was going from Neo:X to stereo when the soundstage just "collapsed" to the front of the room. The stereo soundstage we liked so much at the beginning was now the least desirable of all that we listened to. Moving the panels in and out had less effect with more speakers playing. They helped with imaging precision a little, but removing them did nothing to increase spaciousness because the Wides, Surrounds and Atmos speakers added all the spaciousness that was needed, and way more than stereo with bare sidewalls. DSU was almost as good, but I preferred Neo:X over it. In my 8805 pre/pro, Neo:X has been replaced with DTS:X Pro with the Neural:X upmixer. I think I liked the Neo:X better, but it wasn't in the same room at the same time, so it's hard to say for sure. 

I must admit that this was not a "scientific" test. It wasn't double blinded listening with multiple samples and statistical significance and all that. It was just a couple of enthusiasts playing around on a Saturday morning. The fact that it yielded exactly what I was expecting it to yield would lead some to say that my pre-existing biases influenced my findings. I can't argue with that. But it was fun and enlightening, at least to me. And I intend to soldier-on with my sidewall acoustic absorption and use of upmixing to add spaciousness. Nothing I heard yesterday changed any of my thoughts on that!

Mike... your turn!  

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Hey Craig. Thanks for coming over. It was of course a huge help for me. If we jump right to the music, I will be honest, I am not sure if I heard as big a change as Craig did with the panels.. I happen to like the open soundstage that extends beyond the speakers. Again, with the panels in place I did not hear a major difference. Also, the panels Craig brought were really big and just leaning against the wall. If they were the correct size and mounted on the wall maybe I would have heard a difference. But I like using the DTS mode so I will continue to use that. Then Craig introduced to the DTS:X up mixer. I did like that a lot. More than just stereo alone. I will probably use that from now on for music We did not watch any movies because we did not have time. 

I hope takes my input as that, just input and and not criticism of his views. He may be more in tune to listening to things more than I am. But of course I appreciate his feed back and help.

I will still think about the side panels as well.


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## craig john

I appreciate your input Mike. I think it just goes to show that this is a subtle difference and not as readily apparent as it is sometimes portrayed to be. I noticed it right away, but then I was listening acutely for this phenomenon. 

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

I am not creating a new thread. My room is basically done, but that doesn't mean I would like any feedback. I am happy with this setup. I know it's small but it sounds great. Even though I may have messed things up, it still sounds really good. I am thinking about treatment next to my front speakers. For the first reflection points. We shall see. And I may need another check up (sorry Craig), if you are in here.


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## DMark1

MIkeDuke said:


> I am not creating a new thread. My room is basically done, but that doesn't mean I would like any feedback. I am happy with this setup. I know it's small but it sounds great. Even though I may have messed things up, it still sounds really good. I am thinking about treatment next to my front speakers. For the first reflection points. We shall see. And I may need another check up (sorry Craig), if you are in here.


Hi guys. Reading the last few posts, I think I would fall on the side of the more spacious sound without the panels - especially since the room is so small. Also, since Mike watches alot of movies in that room, I think the larger, more spacious soundstage would serve him better vs. a tighter, more precise and smaller stage. Mike, if you didn't hear much difference, I would suggest saving your money for a more audible future upgrade. Just my two cents...


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks for stopping by Dennis. I wish I heard a huge difference, but I just did not. I don't want to spend money just to spend it.
And you mentioning my soundstage is a good thing. I do like the soundstage in stereo mode, but I have recently tried the "pure"
mode, and that sounds really good as well. I mean, the sound just comes out from arround the speakers in both modes and the 
sound coming from the center is just crazy good, IMHO. If I would lose that, then I would not do this at all. It does sound wide
and spaciacious at times. And that center stage is just amazing as well. I will probably leave things as they are. It makes
things easier for many ways.


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## MIkeDuke

If I want to double check my SPL levels for all my speakers, how do I set the meter. A\C weighted. Fast\Slow. I saw something that said for your mains it should be A fast and for Sub it should be C slow. Then I saw something else that said the main speakers should be C fast and the sub should be C slow. And what level am I shooting for. 75db or 85db.


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## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> If I want to double check my SPL levels for all my speakers, how do I set the meter. A\C weighted. Fast\Slow. I saw something that said for your mains it should be A fast and for Sub it should be C slow. Then I saw something else that said the main speakers should be C fast and the sub should be C slow. And what level am I shooting for. 75db or 85db.


C and Slow for all measurements.


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## MIkeDuke

craig john said:


> C and Slow for all measurements.


Thanks Craig. Do I set the MV to "0"? I will post what my results are here when I can do it.


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## craig john

You only need to set the MV to 0 if you want to check your calibration against reference level. If you just need to check the relative calibration of the speakers and sub to each other, you can use a lower level. What test tones do you plan to use?


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## MIkeDuke

craig john said:


> You only need to set the MV to 0 if you want to check your calibration against reference level. If you just need to check the relative calibration of the speakers and sub to each other, you can use a lower level. What test tones do you plan to use?


Just the internal test tones from the Marantz. I mean, if I just use my normal listening level, which is -15db, right now, I wonder what I would get. I think I need to check against reference level. I can't say what I got before because I did it wrong based on the info I heard on YouTube. Maybe I will do both. 
Thanks Craig.


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## craig john

Mike,

*Don't* use the internal test tones. When those tones play, Audyssey is shut off. If you measure and change the levels based on the internal test tones, the levels with Audyssey re-engaged will be incorrect.

You NEED *external* test tones if you want to recheck Audyssey's level settings. That way Audyssey can be engaged while the test tones are running. If you don't have any external test tones, then please put off doing this until I, or someone else, can come up there with some proper tones to do this testing. 

Alternatively, I can try to find some online test tones you can use.

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Got you. I don't have any test tones. I will just leave it as is and wait until someone can come over and do it right. You can try and find external test tones, but I am betting they will be to hard for me to use.
Thanks for this. I was just about to do it when I read this message. I mean, it may all be in my head as well, and everything might be fine. It's just that I don't ever remember that I could put it up to -15. Maybe that.s because things are right. Who knows. You know me Craig, I am slow when it even comes to my own gear .


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## MIkeDuke

OK. I know it's been a very long time since I posted, but unlike other people, and this is not a slight to them, my equipment doesn't change that much. 

But, yesterday it did. I don't think I have pic, but my surrounds were the Chorus 705v bookshelf speakers. Unfortulantly, because of my room and placement of the surrounds, they could not be angled down to my seating position. They were just firing straight ahead, and it's possible that some of the sound was even hitting my ceiling treatments.I know my room is compromised by it's size, but that doesn't mean I don't want to get best sound out of it. On Youtube, and even here, I noticed how the surrounds were at ear level. Well, the only way I could do that is angle the speakers. The ones I have were just too big. So Craig and I came up with a plan. We said, what about the sib evo subs from Focal. I mean, I am already using the Atmos enabled ones for my front wides, and their size was perfect. So, that's what we did.

But I was also worried about having so many holes because I changed the postion of my surrounds a few times. So Craig came up with the idea of getting wood that would cover the holes and then we would mount the speakers to that. Bingo. After a lot of measuring and moving the ladder from one side of the room to the other, we got them mounted. They look really nice. They have the same size drives as my other speakers, so no loss there, and now we could aim them.

Now came to the calibration.... BUT, guess what, Craig acidently forgot the stand for the Audessey mic. That may have stopped a lesser man, but not Craig. He said "pillows, Give me all the pillows you got. So, that's what we did. After the calibartion, we checked the settings. Marantz settings. Craig said that he had never seen the distance numbers come out as perfect as the did. If Craig stops by, maybe he can explain that. The levels were right where they should be also. 

So then it was time for some testing. All the video tests with Atmos audio sounded incredble. Objects were moving through the room. One other thing we had to do was re-arrange the Atmos speakers so they were in a better spot and we moved my chairs up just a few inches. Every scene, whether it was from Craig's Atmos disk, of one of my movies sounded great. I was happy and I think Craig was happy also. 

So last night I watched a non-Atmos 4k. Long story on how I ended up with a non-Atmos movie, but that's besides the point. The movie starts of in Viet Nam. WOW, the helicopters sounded like they were flying in the room right over my head. It was fantastic. When it switched to the states, the sound was still great, but I still wish I had more surround sound. Now, it was probably the movie, but there were cool little parts that I picked up that I don't think I would have picked up with my old surrounds. Traffic sounded great. Certain effects and people talking as well sounded good. But that was only one movie. So I need to watch a lot more to get a real feeling of the sound moving around the room. I will say what did sound freaking awesome, and I know it did not sound like this before. I watched the beginning of Ford vs Ferrari. As the titles are are being shown at the start of the film, there are cars racing. I could have sworn that they were going right at my ear level. It was insane. That should a good one and I have a few others that should winners as well.

So I need to watch more movies and get more of a feel for how Atmos sounds and non-Atmos films sound. But even though it was a small upgrade, I am glad we did it. Lastly, I will just add that I think we changed the speaker layout in the Marantz as well. If Craig stops by, maybe he can explain what we did a bit more and share his thoughts. But I think it was a successful day .


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## craig john

Hi Mike,

Interesting day yesterday. The idea of using the Sib Evo's turned out to be a good one. 

For those reading along, Mike's previous surround speaker were mounted up high above the entry door. But they were so large, the coudn't be angled down without intefrering with the door. Therefore, they were aimed directly overhead, so the dispersion towards the LP was sorely lacking. With the Sib EVO's we were able to angle them down really well to aim the surrounds at your ears. I thought they worked really well for that position. 

These are the speakers and wall mounts we used:
















The ball joint on the wall mount allows for up to 45 degrees of angle, so we were able to tilt them down to point the speakers directly at Mike's ears. In listening, this made a significant difference in the directionality and the sound quality of the surround content. These speaker match the Sib Evo Atmos speakers we used for the Wides, which we added a few months ago:










These were placed in the Wides positions where they worked very, very well to widen the front soundstage. Mike's room is not that wide, so these speakers really opened it up. We also used the upfiring Atmos-enabled modules, with less beneficial results. But I learned a lot yesterday. I spent some significant time re-positioning these Atmos upfiring speakers. I played pink noise through them and initially the sound seemed to come more from the speaker directly than from the ceiling. But standing up caused the sound to dramatically "jump" up to the ceiling, and the sound coming directly from the speakers to recede and disappear. The Ah-Ha Moment suddenly struck and I realized the the reflected sound was actually hitting behind the listening position. I also noticed the left Atmos speaker worked far better than the right. So after a lot of trial and error, using a flashlight aimed at the ceiling at the angle of the Atmos speakers to help find the exact position of the sound energy directed at the ceiling, I found that moving the speakers about a foot towards the front of the room got the reflected sound to shoot down to the LP, instead of behind it, and greatly improved the "overhead" Atmos effect. I also found that, when I first installed the speakers, I aimed the right one a little differently than the left one. The speakers can be tilted in the stands they sit on and the left was aime straight ahead while the right was aimed further back.










Once I got both speakers aimed the same way, and placed for better overhead reflected effect, the localization of ceiling-based Atmos effects improved significantly. Now, it should be noted that the surrounds are not at ear level as recommended, and they are up near the ceiling. So there is some smearing of height and surround effects, but they are not as dramatic as I was anticipating. Would it be "better" if the surrounds were at ear level? Sure... but there is no way to get them there in Mike's room without taking out the door, which wouldn't be very practical. 

In any even what I heard after all these changes, and running Audyssey, (with the mic on _pillows_ instead of a mic boom!  ), was pleasantly surprising and I was really pleased by the effectiveness of the improvements. I played the Atmos demo tracks, _Amase, Audiosphere, Horizon, Leaf, and Shattered, _and stuff was moving around the room nearly as well as in any other Atmos system I've ever heard. The only significant difference was that there was no rearward sounds, (because Mike doesn't have rear surrounds and there is no way to incorporate them). Even so, birds and leaves were flying in circles around the room, space ships flew overhead, thunder struck from above and baseballs flew past the ears, just like they're supposed to on those tracks. We also watched the GOT scene were the abandoned boat sails into the battle dripping oil and gets "lit up" and explodes. That scene sounded as good as I've ever heard it. 

Mike mentioned we changed the "Amp Assignments". The system was initially set up as 11.1 with 5 Base layer speakers, 1 set of Wides and 1 set of Atmos-enabled speakers. We changed it to 9.1 with the same speaker layout. I think what this did was to take "Rear Surrounds" out of the processing, (even though they weren't actually in use). Whatever it did, it seemed to improve the overhead effects from the Atmos-enabled upfiring speakers even further. 

Bottom line, for me, I came to the conclusion that upfiring Atmos-enabled speakers can actually work very well to provide an overhead effect, but they NEED to be placed proerly to make that happen. I suspect that the inconsistent results many people report with these types of speakers is ultimately related to improper positioning of them. The listening window of the reflected sound is pretty small, especially with standard 8' ceilings, and the speakers NEED to be placed and aimed very precisely to get the intended effect. But once that is accomplished, I think they do work quite well. 

How well this speaker layout will work for upmixed 2-channel or 5.1 content remains to be seen, I would not expect the same kind of effects we heard with real Atmos content, but I would expect some improvement over the native channel count. It will be up to Mike to figure out what sounds best going forward. Hopefully he'll come back to his thread in a few days or weeks and tell us his new experiences. 

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Thanks for that detailed reply Craig. It was a lot of work. But, in the end, I do think the oveall sound of the room was improved. The pillows was a neat trick though. I am getting a good over heard sound now. But, and this has nothing to do with Craig, for some movies, I am not getting direct surround sound. Some do and some don't. Don't get me wrong, I am glad we did this. The entire room is filled with sound. Just not fully directional. I need to lsten to more content. All in all, I am glad we made the change though. I think it's just something I need to get used to. That's all.
But on the demos Caig sited, I agree %100. It sounded fantastic. So more listening. But I am happy with the results, even though it may have sounded like I was not earlier.
As a positive example, I watched the start of ford vs ferrarii. The sound racing arround the room was great. So, I still need to check stuff out.


I am still amazed that Craig has turned my little room into something special . Thanks again Craig.


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## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Thanks for that detailed reply Craig. It was a lot of work. But, in the end, I do think the oveall sound of the room was improved. The pillows was a neat trick though. I am getting a good over heard sound now. But, and this has nothing to do with Craig, for some movies, I am not getting direct surround sound. Some do and some don't. Don't get me wrong, I am glad we did this. The entire room is filled with sound. Just not fully directional. I need to lsten to more content. All in all, I am glad we made the change though. I think it's just something I need to get used to. That's all.
> But on the demos Caig sited, I agree %100. It sounded fantastic. So more listening. But I am happy with the results, even though it may have sounded like I was not earlier.
> As a positive example, I watched the start of ford vs ferrarii. The sound racing arround the room was great. So, I still need to check stuff out.
> 
> 
> I am still amazed that Craig has turned my little room into something special . Thanks again Craig.


_"...for some movies, I am not getting direct surround sound."_

I am thinking/hoping that this is content related. There area a lot of movies that just don't use directional/localizable surround content. In those movies, the surrounds generally only carry ambiance enhancement, which is less noticeable as "direct surround sound". Also, realize that upmixing 5.1 to 9.1 with the Addition of Wides and Atmos can "mask" some of the directionality of the direct surround content. Try listening to some of those same 5.1 movies in native 5.1, without any upmixing. The "direct" content may be more noticeable. Also, don't hesitate to try the Dolby Surround Upmixer instead of Neural:X. You may find that it provides more discreet surround content. I pretty much only use the DSU as an upmixer anymore as I find it's more precise than Neural:X. 

I'm glad to hear that Atmos content is working as it should, and that tells me we got the calibration of the speakers correct. Keep listening to Atmos! 

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Yea Craig. It probably was content related. That's why I was hoping to beat you to a reply, delete my post and post again.
Let me try and explain what happened with more clarity, because that last post was rushed. Craig came over and removed my old speakers. As he said, they could not be angled.
So, we decided on the regular sib speakers, which were smaller, but had the same size driver as my previous speaker. Let me tell you, it was some work. But Craig was able
to do it. I know he thinks he knows how much I appreciate his help, but he doesn't.

Anyway, back to the speakers and room. When we were done with the install, we first tried out the test disk that Craig had. Holy crap. I was floored with each demo. The objects sounded
like they were literally moving through the room. Including the height sensation. I was really surprised. That was probably a combo of a new placement of the wides, the new surrounds, and just the high quality of the demo material which is probably better than we get on movie sound tracks.

Speaking of movie soundtracks, we tested a few. We did the Balog part of LOTR(Atmos). Boy did that sound awesome. The arrows were flying through the room and the bass when the Balrog shows up is sick. (I will get to the bass later). We also watched the intro to Kong: Skull Island(Atmos). In the beginning, while the credits are rolling, you hear a dog fight. That sounded like bullets were coming from everywhere in the room. It was intense. Then we also listened to the beginning of FvF. Man alive. Again, when the credits were rolling at the start of the film, I could have sworn the cars were in my room. At ear level no less. So I am very happy with the sound. Now, the bass. WOW. It's room shaking to say the least. All the movies I just mentioned had awesome bass. Crystal clear as well. 

I was also thinking that the wides+Atmos bounce may be masking some of the direct surrounds. 

I am sorry if my first post was one where it sounded like I was disappointed, because I am not. Now, to the one movie I was able to watch from start to finish. I watched a 4k version of The Post. I know, not the best test. I did not realize it was only a DTS-MA audio. The movie starts in Viet Nam. That part sounded really great with the helicopters as I said before. Then, again, when it got to the U.S the surrounds were way less active. I mean I heard stuff, just not like before. 

Moving the wides did make a big difference in my Atmos experience and just the wide stage as is. I could type more, but I have things to do. 
I just want to thank Craig again and I will report back when I have more experience with different mediums.

More to come...

P.S The pillows were genius.


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## MIkeDuke

OK. A re-do of the last setup. This time Craig brought his equipment, minus one disc. It was a chore. Craig would be nicer, but I saw how hard he worked. He got to my house at 10:00am and did not leave until 5:00. I mean, basically the entire day. Craig was having issues with level matching. The test tones on his Dolby disk did not line up with the internal test tones. At least I think that was the issue. My center was not behaving at all. It was much louder and try as we might, we could not match it to the other speakers. So, we brought the other speakers up to the level of the center. I am sure it was more complex than that, and maybe Craig will pop in and say what was happening. Now I need watch some Atmos movies and see what happens. But the clips we watched and heard, sounded really good. 

I know Craig also took a lot of measurements. To me they just look like spaghetti line, but he said that he was able to get "timing" (I know I am using the wrong word there, within less then a millisecond of each other. Even though the lines were all over the place. Also, I am getting useable output down to 105db at 8hz (maybe Craig remembers what that was as well). If so, that doesn't seem to bad too me.

Anyway, so now I also think the Atmos experience is better. And the sound coming directly from surrounds. I need to watch some Atmos movies, DTS:X movies, and regular BR movies to hear how everything sounds. But I am very grateful for Craig's help and I hope he shows up in here to give his thoughts and be more descriptive than I am able to be .


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## MIkeDuke

Again. I know it's mainly me in here, but that's OK. I just want to clarify some, in case Craig drops in. I have sent him emails. Unforunitly, many time, my emails come out wrong. I mean to just ask questions or give my thoughts and they come out wrong. It sounds like, when it is read, that I am disapointed some how. Nothing could be further from the truth. With the new surrounds angled at me, and us messing with the Atmos part of front wides, and the fact that I have only one sub that can do *105db at 8hz, *I think it sounds really good. 

I email Craig about other systems or other ideas I have and it comes out that I am disapointed with the system. I am not. I am not disapointed with my room.sound. I am disapointed with the room itself. If this was just in one other room, I could do so much more. But that is not the way things are. So I look at bigger systems and get jealous. There, I said it . But I do get great souround sound now and I am very happy with the bounce Atmos. They do work for sure. I do get height sound, as well as sound moving nicely through the room. 

So. I just wanted to say again that I am sorry if my emails come out wrong. They are just meant to be inocent questions that come about from what I read or see.
Thanks again Craig.
P.S I can verify how great everything sounds because I watched a number movies (Atmos and non-Atmos). They both sound great.


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## craig john

Mike,

I'm not upset at any of the e-mails you sent. They were legitimate questions, and I tried to answer them as best I could. I just didn't understand what was motivating you to ask the questions. Now, understanding the you were watching videos of bigger rooms and systems, I fully understand where the questions were coming from. It's not a "dissatisfaction" with what you currently have... it's the desire for more... and better. That is a very common affliction on AVS. It even has a name. It's called "upgrade-itis". Many, many, many AVS Forum members are afflicted with that disease. Just count your self among them and be proud of it. 

That said, I think the issue here is primarily the limitations of the room your system is in. We're not able to do ceiling Atmos speakers, so we did upfiring. We can't move the seats forward, so rear surrounds and rear Atmos speakers won't work. You have a door where your left surround needs to go, so we did the only thing we could which was to mount them up high above the door, aiming down at your ears. In order to get the correct dimension to aim the speaker down towards you, we needed to use a smaller speaker. So I'm not sure there is much we can do to improve the system in that room. 

HOWEVER... there is a lot that is _right_ with your room and system. It is superbly treated with absorption panels and bass traps, which massively improves the sound quality. Your bass is very impressive for a single sub in a small room. We've worked hard to get that right, and the final result is excellent. You have a Crowson transducer/amp system that further enhances the tactile bass. Low bass effects in your room are nothing short of teeth chattering and audibly stunning. Your speakers are all tonally matched and they work extremely well together to provide excellent imaging, soundstage and spaciousness. In fact, your room and system sounds far "bigger" than the dimensions of the room have any right to. And your OLED TV is incredible to watch. Given the limitations of the room you started with, the final results of your room and system far exceed what my expectations would have been. 

The short listening session I had after the last round of upgrades, (the new surrounds and the re-positioning of the upfiring Atmos speakers), had me grinning ear to ear. I thought the system sounded fabulous and far better than a room that size should be allowed to. 

There is one comment you made that I would like to address. In one of your e-mails, you mentioned: _"I mean I have all the power up front and those little speakers in the back." _You were probably watching a video where someone said the surrounds and Atmos speakers should be larger and closer to "full-range" to allow low crossover points. Some people have expressed that opinion, but I completely disagree with it. Bass Management was developed precisely to deal with these kinds of issues.

So yes, it is absolutely true that your front main speakers are larger and have more output and bass extension that your Wides, Surrounds and Up-firing speakers. But the _key_ is that the speakers in those positions are more than _adequate_ for their positions. They're all closer to your ears than your front speakers, so they don't need to get as loud to provide "enough" output. They are also more bass-limited than your front speakers. But that is where Bass Management comes in. All the deep bass in those channels gets re-directed to the subwoofer, which is by far the best speaker in your system to re-produce deep bass. The only possible downside would be if the sound sent to the sub made it "localizable" so that you could hear sounds coming from it directly. I have never heard any sub localization in your system, and you have never mentioned it, so I think we got the crossovers just right. Bottom line, your Wides, Surrounds and Up-firing speakers are large enough and have enough output to work exactly as they need to in your room and system. Changing them out to bigger speakers, (even if it could be done in your room), would not add anything significant to the sound you hear.

I need to spend some time going through all the measurements we took when I was last there. The one "new" measurment we took was the time alignment if the impulse responses. I was very pleased with how those turned out. My expectation is that the imaging in your room, especially the imaging of sounds that pan around your room, should improve beyond what it was previously. I _think_ I heard that, but the listening session was too short to be able to say so for sure. Please try to be attuned to that as you listen going forward. I'll try to get some measurements posted soon. 

Craig


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## Dave Ladely

MIkeDuke said:


> And I have one more Chart. It is a Real Time FR chart of my system that goes up to 20k I think.


I see the tell-tail nose dive ot the high frequency response of cone tweeters. I have film tweeters, which are fairly flat at 20Khz. I do see some use of "conditioners", which purport to "smooth" the source 120 volts A/C. build with a power supply that constricts the head room of power amplifiers, so the "solution" for a non-issue manufactured by a marketing department. A net loss. Also, realism required more like 400 watts/channel. Consider the 3 Db "rule of thumb"where a perceived increase of volume requires a doubling of power to maintain clean audio. And, since the surround channels have about the same audio bandwidth as the front speakers, but very few, being much smaller, thus restricting their sound. In addition, multiple subs lessen the peak/null of one or two subs, resulting in a diffraction of the lower sound waves, allowing far smaller peaks/nulls, allowing everyone in the room receiving close the same low frequency sound. I have also considered "butt kickers" or similar to allow very low frequencies to be felt physically, something
the best subs can't do, being they can't be heard by human ears, but their "butts" have no problem feeling what their butts can sense. Great for action movies or disaster movies, etc. Dave Ladely


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## craig john

Dave Ladely said:


> I see the tell-tail nose dive ot the high frequency response of cone tweeters. I have film tweeters, which are fairly flat at 20Khz. I do see some use of "conditioners", which purport to "smooth" the source 120 volts A/C. build with a power supply that constricts the head room of power amplifiers, so the "solution" for a non-issue manufactured by a marketing department. A net loss. Also, realism required more like 400 watts/channel. Consider the 3 Db "rule of thumb"where a perceived increase of volume requires a doubling of power to maintain clean audio. And, since the surround channels have about the same audio bandwidth as the front speakers, but very few, being much smaller, thus restricting their sound. In addition, multiple subs lessen the peak/null of one or two subs, resulting in a diffraction of the lower sound waves, allowing far smaller peaks/nulls, allowing everyone in the room receiving close the same low frequency sound. I have also considered "butt kickers" or similar to allow very low frequencies to be felt physically, something
> the best subs can't do, being they can't be heard by human ears, but their "butts" have no problem feeling what their butts can sense. Great for action movies or disaster movies, etc. Dave Ladely


Virtually everything you've said here is completely incorrect, mostly due to you not having a full understanding of Mike's system. Let's take each of your comments one at a time:



Dave Ladely said:


> I see the tell-tail nose dive ot the high frequency response of cone tweeters. I have film tweeters, which are fairly flat at 20Khz.


I'm the person who took that measurement. You've identified an "issue", but you've completely mis-diagnosed its cause. The HF roll-off you see is multi-factorial, but completely unrelated to the tweeters in the speakers, (which are Focal 1027 BE, with the BE designating Focal's berrylium tweeters). Those tweeters are well documented to have extended FR to well beyond 20 kHz. Here is an anechoic measurment of two other Focal speakers that use the same tweeters and they show excellent extended response to 20 kHz:

Focal Chora 806
Listening window
20Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m, plotted @ 1m)









Focal Kanta No1
Listening window
20Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m, plotted @ 1m)









So, if the tweeters have extended response to beyond 20 kHz, why is the HF response I measured above rolled off so severely above 10 kHz? As I said, it is multi-factorial and unrelated to the tweeters.

First, that measurment was taken 12 years ago, using an older measurement system, XTZ Room Analyzer, (the original version, not the II Pro version). The HF roll-off on "full range" measurements was a very consistent finding with that system across all systems I measured with it. It's a "symptom" of the FR of the mic used in the measurement system. (I have since switched to REW with a UMIK-1 measurment microphone, and I no longer see these HF roll-offs.)
Second, it's a "grazing incidence" mic, that is pointed at the ceiling. This is the recommended mic position for measuring and optimizing bass response. However, HF's are not well measured in that configuration. If the mic were turned and aimed directly at the speakers, the HF roll-off would substantially disappear. Unfortunately, I failed to turn the mic for this measurment, so the HF roll-off is seen is due to a measurment error on my part.
Third, we used the Audyssey "Reference" curve for Room Correction, which has an inherent 3 dB roll-off of the HF's.








Taken together, these factors explain the noted substantial HF roll-off. Of course, you couldn't be expected to know any of this, so I can understand your confusion just looking at the raw measurement.


Dave Ladely said:


> I do see some use of "conditioners", which purport to "smooth" the source 120 volts A/C. build with a power supply that constricts the head room of power amplifiers, so the "solution" for a non-issue manufactured by a marketing department. A net loss.


You are correct that power conditioners can restrict the headroom of power amplifiers. But you've incorrectly assumed that, because Mike has a power conditioner, his power amps are plugged into it. They are not. They're plugged directly into the wall outlets. (Originally, the older Bryston amps were plugged into an Audience PC, but both the Monster PC and the Audience were later replaced by the current Furman unit, and the power amps were plugged directly into the wall outlets.)



Dave Ladely said:


> Also, realism required more like 400 watts/channel. Consider the 3 Db "rule of thumb"where a perceived increase of volume requires a doubling of power to maintain clean audio.


Early on, Mike had Bryston power amps, a 4 BST, 250 wpc 2-channel amp driving his front L/R's. His current amps are Wyred4Sound 250 wapc amps. "Upgrading" to 400 wpc would provided less than 2 dB of additional headroom. At Mike's listening distance, (~9'), and at his typical listening levels, (-15 to -12), that additional wattage would be completely wasted. 



Dave Ladely said:


> And, since the surround channels have about the same audio bandwidth as the front speakers, but very few, being much smaller, thus restricting their sound.


I'm not sure what you mean here. The surrounds are indeed smaller, but that also means they don't have the same audio bandwidth as the front speakers. They are more bass-limited than the fronts. This is compensated by using different/higher crossovers in the Bass Management settings. The surrounds are all driven by 150 wpc Wyred4Sound amps, fully capable of driving the Surrounds, Wides and Up-firing Atmos speakers to more than loud enough levels for Mike's listening distance and levels. Adding more wattage to the surround channels would be a waste of money.



Dave Ladely said:


> In addition, multiple subs lessen the peak/null of one or two subs, resulting in a diffraction of the lower sound waves, allowing far smaller peaks/nulls, allowing everyone in the room receiving close the same low frequency sound.


First, I have no idea what "diffraction of the lower sound waves" means. Perhaps you're referring to the modal response of the room? But that is NOT "diffraction". (I'm not going to go into a long explanation of the difference between diffraction and modal response, but you may wish to spend some time educating yourself on these differences.) Second, Mike only has ONE seat in his room that is important for bass response, so spatial distribution of bass is far less important for him.

Nonetheless, in Mike's system a single Seaton Submersive is massive overkill for the size of his room, (dual 15" drivers, dual-opposed alignment driven by 2,400 watts of power). Also, the room dictates the placement of the sub in the "nearfield" position, right next to his seat. This means he has MASSIVE output at his one seat, WAY more than he needs. But it also means he has a single 45 Hz peak that requires significant EQ resources to tame. We have done that with a combination of 3 bands of EQ from an SMS-1 subwoofer equalizer and Audyssey XT32 Room Correction on top of that. The resultant frequency response at his ONE important seat "speaks" for itself. We started out with this:

Baseline Response, No EQ, (note huge peak at 45 Hz):









The SMS-1 knocked that peak down by almost 20 dB:









Audyssey XT-32 smoothed that out:









We later dialed in a mid "house curve" by using a program in his sub amp that incrementally increased the low bass an additional 3 dB.









The bass in his primary seat sounds fantastic, very strong, smooth, powerful and uncompressed. Adding additional subs, (which is very useful in many other rooms and systems), would offer no advantage in Mike's room and system.



Dave Ladely said:


> I have also considered "butt kickers" or similar to allow very low frequencies to be felt physically, something the best subs can't do, being they can't be heard by human ears, but their "butts" have no problem feeling what their butts can sense. Great for action movies or disaster movies, etc.


Mike's not using Buttkickers. He has a Crowson Tactile Transducer. It's a completely different technology than shakers like Buttkickers. If you're considering adding tactile response to your system, I strongly recommend Crowsons. I'm pretty sure Mike would too:








The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion...


http://crowsontech.com/ I have been asked a number of questions regarding the Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators recently. I have had at least one of these in my system for a number of years. Last year, I upgraded to a dual transducer system on a riser. I have documented that process here...




www.avsforum.com





Craig


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