# New House - New Theater



## audioguy

*The Oconee Theater

This first post will be modified as necessary

MAJOR UPGRADE IN PROGRESS (01/25/21): *

About 4 years ago, at a CEDIA, I heard and fell in love with the audio during a HT Demo using all Wisdom speakers. That room contained (including the subs) over $200,000 worth of Wisdom speakers. Even though we were sitting far from the optimal position in the room, it was the best sound we heard and simply have never been able to get that sound out of my head.

More recently, I was able to calibrate (Trinnov) a slightly more "modest" Wisdom room that was simply breath taking. I have been working with this client for a couple of years as he moved from some very nice point source speakers to now all Wisdom speakers. The best musical presentation I have ever heard in a home and for movies, just stupid good. So, I have decided that I want to replicate THAT room in my home. My new speakers will ship at the end of this month and I have someone coming in about 10 days to help me modify my room. The speakers will ship at the end of this month.

For LCRs, I will be using 3 Wisdom Audio Sage Line 2 (see below). These require bi-amping using the Trinnov as the electronic crossover.












For surround (and Wide) duty, I will be using 6 of the Wisdom Audio L8i from the Insight Series:










Both of the Sage Line 2 and the L8i are about 4 feet tall.
The L&R will be just to the outside of the screen.

The Wisdom ISC7a will be used for (initially) four 3D Audio Speakers as it uses the same PMD technology as do all other speakers:









So I will now be selling all of my Triad speakers.

Measured at either improved sound quality ---- or MSRP --- this will be the most significant change I have *ever* made to my HT audio. I'm not getting any younger so decided to blow it out one last time and "go big".
*****
[It was either this or a new Porsche but I spend more time in the theater than I do driving] 😁

****
MAJOR UPGRADE COMPLETED (04/20/21):*

Construction/installation is complete --









































***
NOTE:* This first post will be updated as there are any changes in equipment and/or room decor. All other posts will remain unchanged.
***
ORIGINAL POSTS BELOW WITH THE EXCEPTION OF EQUIPMENT LISTS WHICH IS CURRENT.*

Thought about attaching a new name to our re-done theater/listening room, but .........after looking at the posted photos of the re-completed room, we can not really call this room the "Black Pit" or "The Abyss". Gray columns, mostly gray carpet, and mostly dark gray ceiling. So, we will just leave it as "The Oconee Theater".

This "re-decorating" project was all a result of the thread ("The Blacker The Theater The Better The Image") -- and an attempt to make the room look less like a recording studio and more like a theater. At first I was skeptical but tried a few things and it really made a difference. I don't know how to do anything part way .... so I'm not.

All of the original room treatment shown in the first photo is still there in the following, but covered with black GOM (or equivalent). The first 5 feet of the ceiling is covered in black velvet. Under the front soffit is covered in black velvet. All wall surfaces/doors are covered in black GOM. The four columns are covered in gray GOM. The first 8.5 feet of carpet was replaced by very (or not so very when compared to black velvet) black carpet.

A part of the differences you see in the following photos is the switch (in the first photo) from incandescent 2700K bulbs to 5000K LED bulbs in the "AFTER" photo. And FWIW, the colors in the 2nd and following photos are far more representative of what the room actually looks like - but still not very accurate.

*BEFORE:*



















*AFTER:*




































*____

GENERAL*:The room dimensions are 22 x 19.3 x 8. The room was originally a loft but we fully enclosed it: double dry wall; Green Glue, carpet underlay to reduce sound from creeping into other parts of the house, new doors and door seals and thresholds, sealed all electrical outlets. The room was originally 27 feet long but took off 5 feet to get better acoustic dimensions and to create a separate room for my equipment and media storage and center channel (behind an AT screen). Have 5 dedicated 20 amp circuits with 4 being used: 1 for front subs; 1 for rear subs; 1 for all front end equipment and 1 for amps.

*VIDEO EQUIPMENT*:*JVC RS4500 Laser Projector*; *Panamorph Paladin Lens**; Lumagen RadiancePro; Seymour Acoustically Transparent 2:35 120 x 51 inch screen (~1*.0 Gain - XD Material); *Kaleidescape Strato C*; *Kaleidescape Compact 12TB Terra Server**; **JVC RS4100 Laser Projector*

*SPEAKERS:* Room is setup in a 9.5.6 configuration. LCRs: *Wisdom Audio Sage Line 2*; Surrounds and Wides: (6) *Wisdom Audio L8i*; SUBS: *1 Ascendo SMSG32 Infrasonic Subwoofer* (32" Sub Driven by 10,000 Watts); 18-2 Sub Pro Passive Sealed - Dual 18" drivers in a single enclosure (not currently on the Ascendo Website) - One in each front corner, each driver driven by 2500 Watts; 3D Audio ceiling speakers: (6) *Wisdom Audio Sage ICS7a*

*ELECTRONICS:* *Trinnov Altitude 32-24* Surround Processor; *Pure Power APS 2000* Power Conditioner; (3) A*TI - AT54XNC Amplifiers* -  1 Six Channel, 1 Seven Channel and 1 Eight Channel

*SOURCES:* *Synology NAS DS1817+* (32TB/~22TB Usable); *Nvidia Shield* for viewing ripped movies via Plex; YouTube TV app as well as Netflix and Amazon; *Apple TV 4K* = access to Apple TV+ and Hulu; *Oppo 203* 4K Blu Ray Player; *SGC (Small Green Computer) sonicTransporter i5 CDR * for running Roon Core for music playback (ripped files and Qobuz) and collection management.

*ACOUSTIC TREATMENT:* Room design and all acoustic treatment by *GIK*. GIK *q7D diffusors* (2 per side) - Covered by cosmetic DIY panels from *;* Front wall:all absorption; rear side wall*s: GIK Monster Bass Traps with Scatter Plates (3 per side); Rear wall: (3) GIK q7D's with (2) **GIK Monster Bass Traps* with *Scatter Plates*; Left rear corner: *GIK Soffit Traps**;* Front corners: Custom corner traps; Soffit: DIY soffits traps; Ceiling Cloud: *GIK 244 Bass Traps*

*MISCELLANEOUS:* Ethernet Switch; Control 4 System Controller

*ROOM SHORTCOMINGS:* When the room was built, one of the design criteria was to provide isolation from theater sounds being heard in other parts of the house - or external sounds from coming into the room. THAT turned out to be a major failure. Second story rooms (and their wooden suspended floors) present obstacles that are difficult to overcome. In this particular room, it was close to impossible due to a shared AC system with the first floor so leakage through the vent system is a given - short of having re-done the AC system for an additional $20,000. I could have done things like double doors, clips and channels but none of them would have addressed the "leaky" HVAC system.

So while this room does not do a great job of keep sounds in or out (unlike my previous basement-based rooms), it has to be good enough - and it is!

And the "black carpet" was a poor investment. It is simply not black enough to do what I wanted. Better than the "dark gray" that it replaced? Yes and by a large amount. I should either have done a better job of finding a more "black" carpet or built some floor panels covered in black velvet for the first 5 or 6 feet. But I didn't - and won't.

*LISTENING BIASES:* This room is used for both movies and music. I figured out a long time ago that there is not a 2 channel system capable of recreating a live event in any room - at *any* price. Multi-channel enhancement of 2 channel music, to my ears, is a huge improvement over 2 channel (still not marginally close to a live event). I used to believe that a great home audio system could at least reproduce a 3 piece jazz combo. But then my wonderful bride surprised me for a birthday and hired a 3 piece jazz combo to play in our home. If live music is 100, then the very, very best 2 channel audio system is a 10 - maybe!!! It is that far apart. So I quit the chase toward perfection (and the attendant expense) and decided to focus on fun. (Still ain't cheap - and it is still an addiction interesting hobby!!!). There are very few pieces of music that don't sound more "fun" to my ears when expanded to multi-channel. In the FWIW department, if you were to sit at the MLP listening to music, you would not know you were not listening to 2-channel - until I switched to 2-channel.

Given my age and how long I listened to JUST 2 channels, the transition took a while, but now there is no going back - thanks, in part, to CraigJohn, my RS20i Trinnov Altitude and AuroMatic. I tried both Dolby DSU and DTS:Neural-X for up-mixing but both sounded too processed and nothing close to natural. AuroMatic (actually, this is a modified version of AuroMatic as listening to "real" AuroMatic sounds very bass bloated), with the realtime adjustments possible on the Trinnov (and before that, the Datasat LS10/RS20i), really does make the sound far more enjoyable (real?; live?) than does just 2 channels.

*WHAT WOULD I DO DIFFERENTLY IF I WERE STARTING OVER:* Have a slightly wider screen (maybe 12 feet vs current 10 feet) "Sacrifice 😟" (to save the money) the 11.x.10 Triad configuration and go with a 7.x.4 (or maybe 9.x.6) configuration BUT use Wisdom Line Source Speakers (only thing I have heard that betters the Triads --- BUT at a 77% increase in MSRP). Disconnect my existing central HVAC system (all duct work, etc) and use a miniSplit for the theater (greatly reduce ambient room noise); Instead of building a space for an equipment room, use a tiny part of the bedroom behind the theater; Either go with Seaton SubMersives (vs existing Seaton F18s) or Funk Audio subs.

The ONLY item on the above list that is a possibility is the switch from my existing in room Triad Platinums to in-wall Triad Platinums.


----------



## Frohlich

Fantastic room and equipment. I bet it is pure joy. Enjoy!!!!!


----------



## audioguy

Thank you. The red throw blankets add just the needed touch of color.

As noted above, the sound for music (using DiracLive on my server) is very nice. I will need to re-run Audyssey (Pro) as the sound for movies is a bit less than stellar.

Since this is the first time I have had a theater on a second story (wooden floor - not a basement concrete floor) the bass response is quite a different tactile sensation. It will take some getting use to.

I have kept track of your theater also and LOVE the crisp look of the room as well as the speakers you selected. (And my OCD antenna went hyperactive when I observed all of the vacuum marks on you carpet).

What a strange hobby/disease/addiction we have !!!!


----------



## Frohlich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24136414
> 
> 
> Thank you. The red throw blankets add just the needed touch of color.
> 
> 
> As noted above, the sound for music (using DiracLive on my server) is very nice. I will need to re-run Audyssey (Pro) as the sound for movies is a bit less than stellar.
> 
> 
> Since this is the first time I have had a theater on a second story (wooden floor - not a basement concrete floor) the bass response is quite a different tactile sensation. It will take some getting use to.
> 
> 
> I have kept track of your theater also and LOVE the crisp look of the room as well as the speakers you selected. (And my OCD antenna went hyperactive when I observed all of the vacuum marks on you carpet).
> 
> 
> What a strange hobby/disease/addiction we have !!!!



We have somewhat similar tastes. I have a 7.2 JTR set-up but the Seaton Cats have always intruiged me and would love to hear them one day. I just ordered new LCR speakers today...got the JTR Noesis 212 for LCR as a replacement for my JTR T12 and T8. Now time to start saving up my pennies for a 4K projector like yours 


Enjoy your new room. It is awesome!!!


----------



## COACH2369

Love the look of your new room.


I can only imagine how nice it will sound once you are at 100% complete and done tweaking. Your previous room is still my favorite sounding room to date, so I hope to hear this one some day.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frohlich*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24137117
> 
> 
> We have somewhat similar tastes. I have a 7.2 JTR set-up but the Seaton Cats have always intruiged me and would love to hear them one day. I just ordered new LCR speakers today...got the JTR Noesis 212 for LCR as a replacement for my JTR T12 and T8. Now time to start saving up my pennies for a 4K projector like yours
> 
> 
> Enjoy your new room. It is awesome!!!



Thanks again. I came close to getting JTR speakers for my surrounds because I was not able to get comfortable with a firm date commitment on the release of the thinner profile Sparks. That could still happen.


I'm sure your room sounds incredible as well. You have a serious amount of woofage.


I can't tell from the photos but do you have any kind of room treatment?


----------



## Latinoheat

Simply Awesome Audioguy!


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Latinoheat*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24139208
> 
> 
> Simply Awesome Audioguy!



Thank you so much. It's a fun hobby (usually)!


----------



## hometheatergeek


Happy New Year Chuck. How's the new house coming along?


----------



## audioguy

Thanks for checking in. The house is complete and the theater is 98% complete (some cosmetic issues and installing my new Sony 600ES and getting Control4 up and running). Also need to get Audyssey to sound a bit better.


The good news is that the "upper midrange glare" I could never completely eliminate in my other theater appears to be gone


----------



## hometheatergeek


That's great news, buddy. So what do you think is different between the two rooms that eliminated the glare?


----------



## femi

Nice theater Audioguy.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hometheatergeek*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24148209
> 
> 
> That's great news, buddy. So what do you think is different between the two rooms that nmeliminated the glare?



I'm not sure of the cause in the other room nor the cure in this room. I'm reasonably convinced it was the type or placement of acoustic treatment and I did this room a good bit differently. What I do know is that I'm glad it's gone!


----------



## audioguy

New Sony 600ES was installed today. All I can say is W OW !!!!!!!!!!


Out of the box picture is stunning. Sports Center looks incredible. Watched a few minutes of a couple of Blurays and I am really glad I made this purchase.


----------



## hometheatergeek

That's fantastic buddy. So when do we get an invite?


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hometheatergeek*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24181178
> 
> 
> That's fantastic buddy. So when do we get an invite?



As soon as I figure out what is wrong with one of my speakers and re-run Audyssey!!


----------



## hometheatergeek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24182243
> 
> 
> 
> As soon as I figure out what is wrong with one of my speakers and re-run Audyssey!!


Sounds like a great plan.


----------



## audioguy

Watched a few minutes of the 4K version of Spider Man earlier today. Incredible
























I have a new version of the OmniMic test data disk that has test signals for 5.1 channels. Helped a friend today to use it and by modifying sub distances in his SSP, got virtually flat response in all channels. Amazing. I will be doing the same to my system this weekend hopefully after re-running Audyssey.


----------



## MIkeDuke

That room looks really nice Chuck. Your gear and layout are top notch. I see you are running Aud pro but you are also running DIRAC Live? It seems like that's just for music in your system. Can you use it for movies as well. If so, what would happen to the Aud calibration. Would you just not use it? Again, great room and I am on the second floor as well. Although a much smaller room.


----------



## wse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24134933
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upgrade possibilities: The on-wall Seaton Sparks that will fit into the four columns that were sized based upon the rumored dimension. I have no idea when they will be ready for production nor what the price will be. The next upgrade will be to try (it is on order) the yet to be delivered Emotiva SSP that will utilize Dirac, which, at least for music running on my server, is a far superior product (in my opinion) than Audyssey.
> 
> 
> Dirac give you three choices for measurement: Single seat; Couch; room. And it is VERY carefully spelled out almost exactly where the measurement are to be taken from, and how many.


Looks great, too bad DIRAC is not available other than on the DATASAT and Computers!


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wse*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24190798
> 
> 
> Looks great, too bad DIRAC is not available other than on the DATASAT and Computers!



Thanks for the complement. The forever delayed Emotiva SSP will use Dirac and if it becomes available during my life, I will buy one.


That said, there are a lot of little tricks you can do outside of Audyssey to allow Audyssey to sound MUCH better than without using these little tricks -- adjusting surround distance to improve envelopment; adjusting sub distance to improve FR of every speaker in the room.


Audyssey is an amazing product. I just like the capabilities and audible results better with Dirac.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24189029
> 
> 
> That room looks really nice Chuck. Your gear and layout are top notch. I see you are running Aud pro but you are also running DIRAC Live? It seems like that's just for music in your system. Can you use it for movies as well. If so, what would happen to the Aud calibration. Would you just not use it? Again, great room and I am on the second floor as well. Although a much smaller room.



When I run Dirac on my server, it feeds my Integra (for bass management) but I turn Audyssey off. Yes I am only using Dirac for music. Some guys have created the equivalent of an SSP on their server and can run Dirac for movies as well. I will stick with the Integra 80.2 until Emotiva releases their Dirac based SSP. If the Emotive piece is better, I will sell the Integra. If not, I will return it and keep the Integra.


And thanks, Mike, for the complement.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24193402
> 
> 
> When I run Dirac on my server, it feeds my Integra (for bass management) but I turn Audyssey off. Yes I am only using Dirac for music. Some guys have created the equivalent of an SSP on their server and can run Dirac for movies as well. I will stick with the Integra 80.2 until Emotiva releases their Dirac based SSP. If the Emotive piece is better, I will sell the Integra. If not, I will return it and keep the Integra.
> 
> 
> And thanks, Mike, for the complement.


Got you. So will the Emotiva SSP have both Audyssey and Dirac or just Dirac for everything.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24202506
> 
> 
> Got you. So will the Emotiva SSP have both Audyssey and Dirac or just Dirac for everything.



Only Dirac!


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24202979
> 
> 
> Only Dirac!


Got you. I hope the Emotiva piece is a good one. I don't know much about them except what I have seen on their website


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24202979
> 
> 
> Only Dirac!


Got you. I hope the Emotiva piece is a good one. I don't know much about them except what I have seen on their website.


----------



## audioguy

I have used the Emotiva 3 channel amp which I loved (when I had passive surrounds) their preamp (which was really really good) and am currently using their DAC. I'm sure the new SSP won't be up to the standards of a Theta Casablanca but it will also be about 1/10th of the price !!


----------



## MIkeDuke

So that's a 7.x channel preamp right? It looks like from your system config that it would work fine but you don't see any need for heights or wide speakers in your setup?


----------



## audioguy

> :Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*
> 
> So that's a 7.x channel preamp right? It looks like from your system config that it would work fine but you don't see any need for heights or wide speakers in your setup?



I have no doubt that the addition of either heights and/or wides might improve the overall experience, but I have to stop somewhere. I have a 4K projector that throws an image that is hard to describe -- more brightness, better color and better clarity, an anamorphic lens that operates on an automated sled, a new unity gain screen with a new automated masking system each of which allows me to see wide screen film in all of it's glory, speakers that have incredible real and dynamic sound in a well treated room. And through some extension of the Mark Seaton trick of adjusting bass distances in the SSP, we have been able to get very flat response in all 7 channels. Lastly, by didling with the distances of the surrounds, overall envelopment can be vastly improved. I have ZERO complaints nor any desire to add more stuff .... other than an improved SSP. My HT audio and video is as good as I have ever heard/seen at any price anywhere and, my 2 channel music listening is way more than adequate!!

And, should I desire to add either heights or wides, I will move the rear surrounds to operate in that capacity.

Lastly, I am going to be fully retired soon and the ability to spend 47 bazillion dollars quarterly (or whatever it costs to maintain this addiction), will no longer be an option









*EDIT (Dated June 10, 2015): The above post is incredibly embarrassing. Less than a year after the post, I swapped out my 7 Seaton Speakers for Triad, converted to Dolby Atmos so I changed SSP's added an additional amp to drive the 4 new/additional ceiling speakers and of course added the 4 ceiling speakers. And lastly (for the moment) swapped the Seaton SubMersives for DIY Stereo Integrity HST18's last month. Apparently, this hobby/addiction has no end, retired or not.*

_*EDIT 2: (Dated January 20th, 2019): Since the admission of my inability to "stop" on 6-10-15, I have changed processors -- twice, upgraded from 7.x.4 to 9.x.6 (more speakers), upgraded my amps, changed the cosmetics in the room - twice, replaced my 4 DIY subs with 8 Seaton F18s, and replaced my projector - twice*_


----------



## MIkeDuke

That's so great that you have arrived. Your video setup sounds like a real winner as well. It does sound like you are at, or near the end of the journey. I guess the only other thing is if native 4k. I am assuming that if that comes down the pike for movies, you will move into that area and that would be it. But I have no doubt that your system is reference ++.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24203794
> 
> 
> That's so great that you have arrived. Your video setup sounds like a real winner as well. It does sound like you are at, or near the end of the journey. I guess the only other thing is if native 4k. I am assuming that if that comes down the pike for movies, you will move into that area and that would be it. But I have no doubt that your system is reference ++.



The 4K Media Player has about 50 4K movies stored on it, Sony is releasing more all of the time and NetFlix just announced the availability of 4K streaming.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24206227
> 
> 
> The 4K Media Player has about 50 4K movies stored on it, Sony is releasing more all of the time and NetFlix just announced the availability of 4K streaming.


I did not realize they had that many movies. That's pretty cool.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24207925
> 
> 
> I did not realize they had that many movies. That's pretty cool.



While the native 4K stuff is nice, a well done Bluray unconverted to 4K and using an anamorphic lens is VERY close in many cases. Some of the nature videos look awesome but for everyday stuff, no complaints about regular Blu Ray


----------



## Djoel

Awesome set up, love the space +color scheme.


Djoel


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24209036
> 
> 
> While the native 4K stuff is nice, a well done Bluray unconverted to 4K and using an anamorphic lens is VERY close in many cases. Some of the nature videos look awesome but for everyday stuff, no complaints about regular Blu Ray


I have to say that Craig's system looks outstanding as well. I _think_ he up converts but what ever he does, his picture from his projector is really good.

P.S I tried looking to see where the download site was for those movies on Sony's site but I could not find it. I would just be curious to see what they were.


----------



## hometheatergeek


Hey Chuck did you get a chance to revisit The Art of Flight with the new PJ? I bet that BD is just way over the top on your new system.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hometheatergeek*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24209903
> 
> 
> Hey Chuck did you get a chance to revisit The Art of Flight with the new PJ? I bet that BD is just way over the top on your new system.



It is spectacular. I watch at 2:35 using anamorphic lens..and the audio is also

excellent


----------



## Bunga99

I thought your last room was jaw dropping, this looks just as sweet SWEETER!







Truly Awesome set up!!









Do you notice an improvement in having the center channel vertically behind the AT screen vs your previous horizontal set up below the screen?


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24209368
> 
> 
> I have to say that Craig's system looks outstanding as well. I _think_ he up converts but what ever he does, his picture from his projector is really good.
> 
> P.S I tried looking to see where the download site was for those movies on Sony's site but I could not find it. I would just be curious to see what they were.


Chuck previously had the same projector I currently have, the JVC RS-55. It upscales to a resolution slightly less than 4K using a pixel duplication and shifting algorithm called E-Shift. I think what Chuck is saying is that the native 4K Sony is a big step up over the E-Shift Faux-K of the JVC. PC just released a review of the Sony and they seem to agree: http://www.projectorcentral.com/sony_vpl_vw600es_4k_projector_review.htm?em 


Craig


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24216712
> 
> 
> I thought your last room was jaw dropping, this looks just as sweet SWEETER!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truly Awesome set up!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you notice an improvement in having the center channel vertically behind the AT screen vs your previous horizontal set up below the screen?



I appreciate the complement.


One of my strengths is taking another person's good idea and stealing them. I took the lead from CraigJohn on the AT screen for the center channel. I did not think that having the center speaker below the screen was much of a negative until I heard it behind the screen. It's not like the difference between Audyssey on and off but certainly moves one a whole lot closer to a real cinema experience. And the occasional distraction of having actors voices come from some place other than where they were speaking has been completely eliminated. Very definitely glad I did it (thanks Craig). And I would recommend that anyone thinking about a new theater or a theater re-do strongly consider it.


I was urged by some during the process of my theater build to put the left and right behind the screen as well. If this room were only to be used for movies, I probably would have done so. Bu the majority of my time in the room is listening to music. And I was not willing to give up the imaging that comes from correct left and right speaker placement into the room. But that's just me.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24217364
> 
> 
> Chuck previously had the same projector I currently have, the JVC RS-55. It upscales to a resolution slightly less than 4K using a pixel duplication and shifting algorithm called E-Shift. I think what Chuck is saying is that the native 4K Sony is a big step up over the E-Shift Faux-K of the JVC. PC just released a review of the Sony and they seem to agree: http://www.projectorcentral.com/sony_vpl_vw600es_4k_projector_review.htm?em
> 
> 
> Craig


Got you Craig. That review is pretty impressive. So that Sony is Native 4k. Really cool stuff. Craig, yours is the probably the highest resolution image on a big screen that I

have seen to date(in a HT). I have yet to see 4k in it's native state(in a HT) so I really can't comment on a difference. I do know that it looks like my server has the ability to up convert the signal to well above 1920x1080. Although that would obviously be a faux format as well. But my current TV can't handle anything like that so I am just at regular BR resolution.

But it would be cool to see 4k at some point. Anyway, Chuck, your system is just super outstanding now. I know you enjoy it and you should.


----------



## audioguy

OT. I cannot remember how to change a URL to a name







Anyone help??


----------



## hometheatergeek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24221111
> 
> 
> OT. I cannot remember how to change a URL to a name
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone help??


Do you mean your want to type something like read here and show the link on the two words show here  If so highlight the two words then hit the chain link icon above and insert URL address.


----------



## Bunga99

You mean like this:

New House - New Theater


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hometheatergeek*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24221529
> 
> 
> Do you mean your want to type something like read here and show the link on the two words show here  If so highlight the two words then hit the chain link icon above and insert URL address.



Thanks you sooooo much. I was trying to make it REALLY difficult


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24222305
> 
> 
> You mean like this:
> 
> New House - New Theater



Thanks ...


----------



## audioguy

Visited my dealer today to get a part and saw the Sony 1000 projected on a 14 foot wide screen (16 x 9). UNBELIEVABLE !! It was like being in a theater. I thought my 10 foot wide screen was large but this is 2.5 times the square footage of mine !! I was sitting too close as I could not see the entire screen without moving my head.


Apparently, with projectors screens, its "go big or go home!!


With the 600 and 1000, Sony has really hit a home run.


----------



## Frohlich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater#post_24138185
> 
> 
> 
> I can't tell from the photos but do you have any kind of room treatment?



I just ordered bass traps from acoustimac and absorption panels from Vicoustic (thanks to Kris Deering, never heard of them until his thread). This is my first time getting into room treatments..hope they pay off










Looks like both the Cats and the Noesis were at this weekends GTG...along with Danleys. I would have loved to be there as I am sure having all three speakers in one room to demo won't be repeated. Like I said, my next toy is probably a 4K projector but I will probably hold off another year until the next models come out....hopefully a litt cheaper


----------



## audioguy

Let me explain what was done with acoustic treatment: The screen wall has 2 inches of absorptive material behind the screen (since the screen is AT);


The side wall first reflection point use 3 GIK q7D's on each side. These are also used in the center of the rear wall (3) surrounded by Monster Traps with Scatter Plates (2)

 


We use Monster Traps with Scatter Plates on the rear wall (2) as well as three each on each rear side wall:

 


In each of the front two corners we use what GIK calls Soffit Traps which are 17" x 17" x whatever length needed:

 


On the ceiling we have four 244 Bass Panels which are suspended about 5 inches.


And lastly we built soffit bass traps into all wall ceiling intersections stuffed with fiberglass from Home Depot.


It is still a bit early to decide but it may be just a tad too dry for my taste but I will live with it for several months before I decide if it is an issue. GIK also plans to make a visit once everything is dialed in.


----------



## hometheatergeek


Hey Chuck, I don't know if you had checked out my thread lately but I went and visited with the GIK people just before Christmas vacation and ended up buying 2 regular size 244 bass traps and one custom made one to go above my display that was 12" by 64". I did that for a two fold reason, 1) it was agreed upon with Glenn, the owner, that it would help with the flutter echos and 2) it helps bring out the contrast on the display since we went with the black fabric. If you go to my first post you will see how they look. It made a huge difference in my room and made the speakers simply disappear from view. The sound is so enveloping now. They are a great group of ppl and had my order done in less than 24 hours. I can't wait to come hear your system and if you are ever near my area , if you remember where I live,  you should stop in for a few.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hometheatergeek*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24260316
> 
> 
> Hey Chuck, I don't know if you had checked out my thread lately but I went and visited with the GIK people just before Christmas vacation and ended up buying 2 regular size 244 bass traps and one custom made one to go above my display that was 12" by 64". I did that for a two fold reason, 1) it was agreed upon with Glenn, the owner, that it would help with the flutter echos and 2) it helps bring out the contrast on the display since we went with the black fabric. If you go to my first post you will see how they look. It made a huge difference in my room and made the speakers simply disappear from view. The sound is so enveloping now. They are a great group of ppl and had my order done in less than 24 hours. I can't wait to come hear your system and if you are ever near my area , if you remember where I live,  you should stop in for a few.



Awesome. And you are correct, they are a great group of people with good products at fair prices. I ma glad you got great results. Are the two standard 244's behind your front speakers. I like the custom one they made for over your TV.


I really do want to hear your system. Mine is still quite not ready for prime time but am getting closer!


----------



## audioguy

This past weekend I finally re-ran Audyssey and then used the Mark Seaton sub distance measurement trick and got incredible FR on all channels. Then I listened to a bunch of demo cuts from action movies.


The sonic differences in this room and my last are pretty dramatic. And 95% of those differences are due to the fact that the theater sits on a second floor; with wooden sub flooring with zero wall support underneath other than where the theater walls sit. So I have approximately 500 SF of flooring subject to 9600 watts of Seaton SubMersives. For impact kinds of bass, it is tight and clean and awesome. But for the lower frequency stuff; the entire room moves ---- A LOT!! For those who have spent money and energy on butt kickers or other seat moving technologies, I win










Unfortunately, I was never a fan of the seat moving systems (butt shakers/tactile transducers) and I'm not a great fan of what is happening in my room. On some material, it does enhance the experience but on others, it is very distracting. But short of moving yer again, (ain't happenin') I will have to learn to live with it. I will also confess that I do have some concerns on the long term possibilities of structural damage to my home. In a concrete bunker like my last home theater it was more difficult to sense the amount of air that 4 SubMersive move. Pretty scary !!!


----------



## hometheatergeek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24312151
> 
> 
> This past weekend I finally re-ran Audyssey and then used the Mark Seaton sub distance measurement trick and got incredible FR on all channels. Then I listened to a bunch of demo cuts from action movies.
> 
> 
> The sonic differences in this room and my last are pretty dramatic. And 95% of those differences are due to the fact that the theater sits on a second floor; with wooden sub flooring with zero wall support underneath other than where the theater walls sit. So I have approximately 500 SF of flooring subject to 9600 watts of Seaton SubMersives. For impact kinds of bass, it is tight and clean and awesome. But for the lower frequency stuff; the entire room moves ---- A LOT!! For those who have spent money and energy on butt kickers or other seat moving technologies, I win
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, I was never a fan of the seat moving systems (butt shakers/tactile transducers) and I'm not a great fan of what is happening in my room. On some material, it does enhance the experience but on others, it is very distracting. But short of moving yer again, (ain't happenin') I will have to learn to live with it. I will also confess that I do have some concerns on the long term possibilities of structural damage to my home. In a concrete bunker like my last home theater it was more difficult to sense the amount of air that 4 SubMersive move. Pretty scary !!!


Well if 4 SubMs are giving you sleepless nights I would be glad to take a couple of them off you hands. I'll even use one of my work trucks to come pick them up to save you the mula on shipping.


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24312151
> 
> 
> This past weekend I finally re-ran Audyssey and then used the Mark Seaton sub distance measurement trick and got incredible FR on all channels. Then I listened to a bunch of demo cuts from action movies.
> 
> 
> The sonic differences in this room and my last are pretty dramatic. And 95% of those differences are due to the fact that the theater sits on a second floor; with wooden sub flooring with zero wall support underneath other than where the theater walls sit. So I have approximately 500 SF of flooring subject to 9600 watts of Seaton SubMersives. For impact kinds of bass, it is tight and clean and awesome. But for the lower frequency stuff; the entire room moves ---- A LOT!! For those who have spent money and energy on butt kickers or other seat moving technologies, I win
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, I was never a fan of the seat moving systems (butt shakers/tactile transducers) and I'm not a great fan of what is happening in my room. On some material, it does enhance the experience but on others, it is very distracting. But short of moving yer again, (ain't happenin') I will have to learn to live with it. I will also confess that I do have some concerns on the long term possibilities of structural damage to my home. In a concrete bunker like my last home theater it was more difficult to sense the amount of air that 4 SubMersive move. Pretty scary !!!


You may be able to buy isolation feet to decrease the tactile sensation, or you could embrace it with a set of Crowson Transducers set to a low setting in order to deliberately control the tactile sensation you do get.  This way, the tactile response will be more deliberate and may alleviate the mental concern of the unintentional tactile sensation.  Another suggestion would be to build a small riser, fill it with sand, and cover it in the same carpet as your floor. Might cost you $1000 tops.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24314173
> 
> 
> You may be able to buy isolation feet to decrease the tactile sensation, or you could embrace it with a set of Crowson Transducers set to a low setting in order to deliberately control the tactile sensation you do get.  This way, the tactile response will be more deliberate and may alleviate the mental concern of the unintentional tactile sensation.  Another suggestion would be to build a small riser, fill it with sand, and cover it in the same carpet as your floor. Might cost you $1000 tops.



I'm no expert on these matters but I don't know if either of those options would solve the problem. The volume of air pushed by the 8 drivers and 9600 watts will move the floor (and walls and ceiling) no matter where they are placed. As you know, the SubMersive cabinets are pretty inert so isolating the feet or building a riser won't stop all of the cubic inches of air getting pushed around the room.


So far, it has not been an issue for music


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24322981
> 
> 
> I'm no expert on these matters but I don't know if either of those options would solve the problem. The volume of air pushed by the 8 drivers and 9600 watts will move the floor (and walls and ceiling) no matter where they are placed. As you know, the SubMersive cabinets are pretty inert so isolating the feet or building a riser won't stop all of the cubic inches of air getting pushed around the room.
> 
> 
> So far, it has not been an issue for music


Hey Chuck. As you know, my small room is on the second floor. I only have one SubMersive HP but I do supplement it with a Crowson setup for my main chair. This allows me the ability to play a movie and what would be considered insanely low in these parts







, but still feel like I am part of the movie. I do agree though a riser really won't don much. I bought a big Gramma for my sub but in reality, it's probably not doing much. But it's a mental thing for other people and at least it looks like I made the attempt to help. With all of your power, just putting them on risers probably won't do much. If you want real isolation, you already know what you have to do. A solid core door with a sweep at the bottom is a start. The heavier the better. But you really need to do a room in a room design probably with GG. That's probably your best chance of trying to contain as much as you can. The only issue with that is, the bass and sound are going to find the path of least resistance. Which in your case, if you do GG on the walls will be your floor or conversely, if you are on the first floor, the ceiling. Unless you find a way to take care of that as well, you will still have some issues as well. Anyway, those are my thoughts. Take them for what they are worth.


----------



## audioguy

I use DiracLive on my server for listening to music but Audyssey on my 80.2 for movies. I run the digital output from my server to the 80.2 so that I can use it for bass management but turn off Audyssey.


Here are the 3 curves of the left front speaker+ sub comparing no correction, to Audyssey to Dirac. I used the 9 recommended position for Dirac and 9 recommended positions for Audyssey.


You can see the improved response in the critical area between about 200hz and 1K with Dirac. I really prefer the sound of Dirac and that is why I have the Emotiva SSP on order to give it a go.


----------



## audioguy

I have previously stated that for 2 channel, I prefer Dirac over Audyssey. I took 9 measurements with each and according to the preferred methodology for selecting the measurement positions. While you can see the two plots are "close" there is a substantive difference in the upper bass/lower midrange area.


I have no clue if these differences would be audible with a 7.2 system!!

AudysseyvsDirac.pdf 114k .pdf file


----------



## MIkeDuke

So the darker blue line is the Dirac line? It does look better. Now correct me if I am wrong, but you *can* use Dirac Live for movies and music. I mean the Dirac system seems to be the one in the higher end pre-amps like the Datasat and Theta Digital right? It seems ADA use that other one called Trinnov. I am assuming that the Dirac system in those other pre-amps are meant to EQ the system for music and movies, not just music. Are you saying that Audyssey is "better" then Dirac Live for movies or just better "in your system." Just wondering that's all. All of the new EQ systems and audio formats are enough to make my head spin







.


----------



## audioguy

I'm not saying Audyssey is better for movies but at this time I only have Dirac for 2 channel. Hearing the differences between the two on 2 channel is not difficult. But what I don't know is if the differences between Dirac on an SSP (e.g. emotiva) and Audyssey on my 80.2 with a 7.2 system will be audible!


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1508517/new-house-new-theater/30#post_24388483
> 
> 
> I'm not saying Audyssey is better for movies but at this time I only have Dirac for 2 channel. Hearing the differences between the two on 2 channel is not difficult. But what I don't know is if the differences between Dirac on an SSP (e.g. emotiva) and Audyssey on my 80.2 with a 7.2 system will be audible!


Got you. I just wanted to make sure I understood what you meant.


----------



## audioguy

My dealer has loaned my his Datasat SSP to learn it so that I can assist his folks in room setup in their soon to be completed new space and in their customer's home. (His folks have heard my room/system and have told the owner how it sounds and I sent him some data to show what tweaking can do to improve the room)


This is one complicated system. I suspect it will be quite some time before I ever get to the listening stage. For those who are familiar with the concept of "expectation bias" I have it. In this case, however, my expectation is that while (on paper) this $22.500 package should (a lot) sound better than my $2500 Integra 80.2, I will be quite surprised if it is really obvious when actually listening to a 5.1 movie. I have really fine tuned my room with treatment and Mark Seaton tricks, and it sounds really really excellent.


My hope is that it does NOT sound a lot better than the Integra as I would then be in a quandary.


We shall see!!


----------



## audioguy

Update: I will be going to California the first part of next month to get a day of training on the Datasat.

While visiting with one of our new neighbors some time ago, she mentioned she was a big fan of the Transformers movies (they are in their late 60's at least).

This weekend we had them over to watch Number 3 and they were absolutely blown away. They had seen it originally in a commercial theater but had never experienced anything like what they heard in our theater (Volume maybe at reference mine 8). At the end of the movie, they were like a couple of teenagers who just got their drivers license. In fact, they like all of the same action movies I do (FWIW, my wife had never seen any of the Transformer movies as I knew she would no like them - she didn't). They will be my go-to invitees to watch all future action flicks !! 

As she left the theaters she said: "I don't know what you paid for all of this but it is worth every penny of it".

And I would add: "Amen"


----------



## Mr. Hatcher

Very nice theater room! Excellent job on the build!


----------



## audioguy

carp said:


> +1!! Love your room - great job!!


Thank you so much. I had not looked at your room in a while. Your screen is much too small and you don't have enough woofage!! 

That is one large screen. Massively large.

Eight 18" drivers is a serious amount of air movement. I'm in a converted loft and with my 4 SubMersives (8 15 inch drivers), the ENTIRE room moves in heavy bass scenes. If I put 18's in here, I would end up on the first floor.

Thanks again for the complement. 

It's a fun addiction/hobby (usually!)


----------



## carp

audioguy said:


> Thank you so much. I had not looked at your room in a while. Your screen is much too small and you don't have enough woofage!!
> 
> That is one large screen. Massively large.
> 
> Eight 18" drivers is a serious amount of air movement. I'm in a converted loft and with my 4 SubMersives (8 15 inch drivers), the ENTIRE room moves in heavy bass scenes. If I put 18's in here, I would end up on the first floor.
> 
> Thanks again for the complement.
> 
> It's a fun addiction/hobby (usually!)




Hey, 4 Submersives is crazy (in a good way) too - I used to have 2 of them so I know how awesome those subs are!!


----------



## audioguy

*Gain Matching vs Level Matching*

When I first installed my 4 SubMersives, I used Gain Matching (see description by CraigJohn in the SubMersive thread) and never paid much attention to what might happen if I level matched. When I built my new theater, I also set up the subs with gain matching.

A few weeks ago, I decided to try level matching and see what happened. This was prompted by reading about a few different multi-sub set up procedures and my own curiosity. The audible results were significantly different (can't tell you why since the FR looked virtually identical after Audyssey did it's thing). And for a while, I REALLY liked it for moves but not as much for music. The bass in movies was just stupid (good?). Over time, I began to hear things in some parts of the bass spectrum (in movies and music) that did not sound correct and the bass in music sounded "thick" in some instances.

So I decided to compare the uncorrected FR of the two methods. Since my front subs and rear subs are different distances from the MLP, I grouped them that way and assigned
the fronts to Sub Out 1 and the rears to Sub Out2. Of course Audyssey set up different distances (and trims) for each group of subs. The actual level of the gain matching FR was a bit lower than the level matching, I adjusted them to be the same when I plotted and compared them. Here is the plot:



As you can see, Gain matched provided better uncorrected results.

The next plot is after setting the sub distances the same and comparing that to the Audyssey assigned distance for each sub group. You can see the huge dip near 100hz.



Finally, I started physically moving the rear subs, used gain matching and ran all four subs from Sub Out 1. What I ended up with is FR almost as good from 20hx up (the dip around 100 means nothing since (1) Audyssey fixes it and (2) I crossover below it. What I gained is very nice relative increase in output below 20hz. 



FR after Audyssey does its magic (no smoothing - true for all plots):



As Craig noted in a previous post, if you use both sub outs, Audyssey uses level matching so you would need to split the differences in the two trim levels that Audyssey selects. I don't have that issue in this approach.

Sonically, I love how it sounds for movies and have not listened to music but will do so later today. It sounds better from an accuracy perspective than any time I have owned them but not as much fun as when I had level matched them - but I have yet to hear the thickness I heard when they were set up that way.









[/URL]


----------



## carp

This is why I love tweaking and endlessly messing with stuff. Well, first and foremost because I have fun doing it, and second every once in awhile you have a "breakthrough" tweak that changes things for the better and you leave that alone.

I agree with the gain matching and the reason behind it, but if level matching gives you that response and that much boost below 20hz it's a no brainer!! 

However, to be sure I would run some compression sweeps (I hate doing it myself ) to make sure that your new setup isn't taxing 1 sub (or 2 or whatever) a lot more now giving you less headroom in reality than you had before.

No smoothing too!!! Wow, just wow with that last graph!! Well done.


----------



## carp

Oh wait, I think I missed it... is your last graph back to gain matched? If so, win-win!


----------



## hometheatergeek

Nice looking graphs Audioguy. My subs are still gain matched but I did have to use Craig's distance tweak since I am using both sub outs on the Denon 4311ci. I recently bought my wife a laptop so I'm planning on getting a USB microphone and load REW onto her laptop. Which mic do you use? 

Or I could just pay you to come over the house and measure my system.


----------



## audioguy

hometheatergeek said:


> Nice looking graphs Audioguy. My subs are still gain matched but I did have to use Craig's distance tweak since I am using both sub outs on the Denon 4311ci. I recently bought my wife a laptop so I'm planning on getting a USB microphone and load REW onto her laptop. Which mic do you use?
> 
> Or I could just pay you to come over the house and measure my system.


I have the UMK mic for REW but have not used it as I don't use REW. I may need to learn to use it since I am playing with the Datasat SSP and it does not calculate distances and will need some way to electronically determine distances. There is a way to do that with OmniMic which is what I use.

I would consider doing the measurements for you once my laptop is repaired and the charge will be zero. Give me some dates (PM) and I will take a look.


----------



## audioguy

Ran Dirac last night and really love the results for music. I can't explain why but the bass just sounds so much more natural and less thumpy than when listening through the Integra with Audyssey. As a reminder, I run the output of the server through the Integra and use it for bass management but turn Audyssey off.


----------



## Silva741

Love the look of your room. Simple and elegant, with a nice color scheme. I bet it sounds equally impressive. Congratulations.


----------



## audioguy

Silva741 said:


> Love the look of your room. Simple and elegant, with a nice color scheme. I bet it sounds equally impressive. Congratulations.


Thanks for your kind words. This hobby (or more appropriately ADDICTION) can be lots of fun but on occasion, frustrating (like when a PC crashes). Our theater gives us lots of pleasure for movies and me lots of pleasure for music.

I spend a lot of time "tweaking" to extract the best possible sound from the system/room and over time it gets a little bit better. This is actually my 5th theater (2 in one home, 2 in the next home and now this one) and each is more fun than the last.

I actually had a "media room" even before then in the mid 1980's with a front projection TV (Mitsubishi 50 inch), 2 front speakers, 2 rear speakers, a Laser Disk Player and VCR with some surround synthesis box that I don't recall the name of.

Thanks again.


----------



## audioguy

After setting my subs up as a single unit, i reran Audyssey. As many know, in a multi-sub environment, Audyssey does not do very well in assigning the sub distance. Below is a chart comparing the Audyssey selected distance versus the modified one for the left front speaker:








[/URL]

The following is for the center speaker. Not the same level of improvement but a bit better nonetheless:








[/URL]


----------



## Balbolito

Nice room and gear. 

I am sure it sounds excellent.


----------



## audioguy

Balbolito said:


> Nice room and gear.
> 
> I am sure it sounds excellent.


Thank you so much. Being now retired, I am able to allow my OCDness to manifest itself by spending lots of time tweaking and calibrating my existing room/system to extract all that is possible.

We do enjoy it a lot and now that college football is back, I move into the theater on Saturday mornings for Game Day and leave about midnight.

Go Noles!!


----------



## Balbolito

audioguy said:


> Balbolito said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice room and gear.
> 
> I am sure it sounds excellent.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you so much. Being now retired, I am able to allow my OCDness to manifest itself by spending lots of time tweaking and calibrating my existing room/system to extract all that is possible.
> 
> We do enjoy it a lot and now that college football is back, I move into the theater on Saturday mornings for Game Day and leave about midnight.
> 
> Go Noles!!
Click to expand...

I have been reading a lot about the seatons now and i am sure my next upgrade will be that! currently running an Atlantic Technology 11.3 setup.

Which is:
8200e fronts
8200e SR surrounds
4400's for wide,height and s.backs
642e subs x3 

Marantz AV-8801 using XT32
Emotiva XPA-3 x1
Emotiva XPA-5 x2

Wireworld cables for everything:
XLR,HDMI,Sub cables and power chords

Panasonic PT-AE8000 3D
113" 1.4 SI Black Diamond Screen
Chord Carnival Silverscreen Speaker cables.


Will do the Audyssey pro calibraton soon as i already have the kit.


----------



## hometheatergeek

Good morning Chuck, I hope you are having a fabulous Labor Day weekend.


----------



## Nabs17

audioguy,


First..very nice room. I love the look.


I have a question about your GIK panels because I also have some. Specifically the ones in the back of the room....are they standard size (2x4's) or are they custom sized? I can't tell by looking at the pictures.


Thanks,


----------



## audioguy

Nabs17 said:


> audioguy,
> 
> 
> First..very nice room. I love the look.
> 
> 
> I have a question about your GIK panels because I also have some. Specifically the ones in the back of the room....are they standard size (2x4's) or are they custom sized? I can't tell by looking at the pictures.
> 
> 
> Thanks,


They are custom panels. They are monster bass traps with scatter plates and are 2 x 5.


----------



## audioguy

masshi65 said:


> Nice room


Thank you and welcome to AVS.


----------



## audioguy

Couple of updates:

I finally installed a very quiet (.3 sones) bathroom exhaust fan (Panasonic FV-15VQ5) in the equipment room to reduce the heat build up from the equipment. While there is an AC duct in the equipment room, the thermostat is in the theater. It worked WAY better than expected. The equipment room has about 750 cf and the fan pulls 150 cfpm. Apparently, because it is a (very) sealed room, it pull air out of the AC duct (in order to deal with the negative pressure) from the equipment room which is connected to the theater duct work and gets air from the theater into the equipment room. After watching a 2 hour movie with the equipment room door closed, the temp in the equipment room was identical to the temp in the theater. It is usually much, much, much warmer.

I have been playing witth the Datasat RS20i. If you win the lottery, put one on order. Fully fleshed out (base 16 channel product plus Auro plus Atmos plus the Dirac setup kit), you are probably close to $30,000. We tested this against my existing Integra blind and level matched. The Integra was spectacular and while the RS20i was better, it was not 10 times better. I won't be buying one of those any time soon 

The two places it excelled was surround envelopment and bass. I actually didn't see the bass getting any better but it did. Very nice product - if you can afford it and want (need?) the best.


----------



## kbarnes701

Hey Chuck!

Been meaning to drop by your thread for ages. What can I say that hasn't already been said? What a fabulous room you have made there. And how I envy you those Seaton speakers. I'd buy them in a heartbeat if there was space in my small room for them.

So... what will you be doing for Atmos then?


----------



## audioguy

kbarnes701 said:


> Hey Chuck!
> 
> Been meaning to drop by your thread for ages. What can I say that hasn't already been said? What a fabulous room you have made there. And how I envy you those Seaton speakers. I'd buy them in a heartbeat if there was space in my small room for them.
> 
> So... what will you be doing for Atmos then?


Thank you so much for the kind words. On occasion I get too caught up in diddling and fiddling and measuring and sort of forget why I actually built the room. 

Actually, Cat8's might work very well in your room for LCR's and in a room the size of yours, it would easily equal the 12's in my room.

I have purchased and am waiting delivery of the Marantz 7702. I didn't need the amps and liked the XLR connectors. First time Marantz owner.

I am undecided on the speakers. Part of me wants in-ceiling for cosmetic reasons but (a) not interested in putting a hole in the ceiling since I spent a lot of money trying to make the room as leak-proof as possible; (b) concerned about pointing, non-pointing and dispersion pattern; and (c) do-overs are messy and expensive so the trial and error approach (like what you did) is out of the question.

That takes me to on-ceiling. The ones you and Rodger and a few others have selected solves a, b, and c above but loses the cosmetic battle + they hang down so low and I have my 4 surrounds high on the wall, I am concerned about the angles. In fact, now that I think about it, when I did my calculations on the angles, I used a spot on the ceiling when in fact it would be about a foot lower than that. I am standing by until Rodger posts his results since his room is a good bit smaller and his surrounds are also high on his walls.

I have also talked to Mark Seaton on speakers he would make (with external amp and bi-amped) but when he gave me a guesstimate on the pricing, I needed instant medical attention.. They would basically be like his Sparks and priced accordingly.

And while I think having all matching speakers would be nice, I think once they are all Audysseyized, the differences become pretty minimal in the grand scheme of things. I have a friend who has Dunlavy surrounds (4) and center channel, Magico L + R, Seaton subs (2 SubMersives and 2 of those ginormous Terraforms) and is getting yet another brand of 4 speakers for his ceiling. I really do not hear any issues when there is a pan through his front three speakers.

All that to say, I won't be getting Seaton ceiling speakers unless I win the lottery soon!!

And by the way; Audyssey on his 5200 did a MUCH better job than Audyssey on his 80.3. Bass response below 20hz was better AND, amazingly, the splice between his subs and mains/center was spot on. No adjustment in sub distance necessary. That has NEVER happened to him or me. Also, we both liked what the Dolby Surround option did better than PLZIIx (or whatever it's called).

I purchased TF4 and it truly is an awful movie! That said, the audio is off the charts. I kept cranking up the volume until I was pretty close to reference. And since I'm on the second floor, LOTS of physical room movement. Interestingly enough, on some of the "fly over" scenes that were touched on in the various comments, because my surrounds are high, I had over the head experiences as well. Once I get my speakers selected and mounted and in the system, I will listen to at least parts of it again.

Thanks again for all of the effort you put into this forum. Much appreciated.


----------



## kbarnes701

audioguy said:


> Thank you so much for the kind words. On occasion I get too caught up in diddling and fiddling and measuring and sort of forget why I actually built the room.


It's easily done - the room can become the hobby and it's easy to forget that the purpose of the room is to reproduce music and/or movies.



audioguy said:


> Actually, Cat8's might work very well in your room for LCR's and in a room the size of yours, it would easily equal the 12's in my room.


Hmmm.... I will have to check those out.



audioguy said:


> I have purchased and am waiting delivery of the Marantz 7702. I didn't need the amps and liked the XLR connectors. First time Marantz owner.


Looks like a great unit - and as you say, all you need are the preouts.



audioguy said:


> I am undecided on the speakers. Part of me wants in-ceiling for cosmetic reasons but (a) not interested in putting a hole in the ceiling since I spent a lot of money trying to make the room as leak-proof as possible; (b) concerned about pointing, non-pointing and dispersion pattern; and (c) do-overs are messy and expensive so the trial and error approach (like what you did) is out of the question.


It's a difficult decision for sure. Your room is spectacularly good-looking so I can understand you wanting to keep it that way. In-ceilings will be difficult for you though and could easily undo a lot of the time, money and effort you've put into soundproofing the space. I am fortunate in that way - I often use my room, as you do, after Mrs Keith has gone to bed, and I like to listen close to Reference, but I have the huge advantage that Mrs K can sleep through anything (she has slept through an earthquake one time, literally) so the sound from the HT doesn't bother her at all. And our bedroom is right above the HT too!



audioguy said:


> That takes me to on-ceiling. The ones you and Rodger and a few others have selected solves a, b, and c above but loses the cosmetic battle + they hang down so low and I have my 4 surrounds high on the wall, I am concerned about the angles. In fact, now that I think about it, when I did my calculations on the angles, I used a spot on the ceiling when in fact it would be about a foot lower than that. I am standing by until Rodger posts his results since his room is a good bit smaller and his surrounds are also high on his walls.


Roger is using the bigger Di6 on his ceiling whereas I am using the smaller Di5. The Di5 don't hang down very low - this was my reason for selecting those rather than the bugger Di6 models - I didn't want them dominating my Hobbit-sized space. But in your much bigger room, they may well disappear. The aesthetics of the Tannoys aren't as bad as they look, once mounted. They do have a somewhat 'industrial' feel to them but I don't dislike that. And, TBH, my room is so dark when I am in there that I can’t actually see the ceiling speakers at all - even on bright parts of the movie.



audioguy said:


> I have also talked to Mark Seaton on speakers he would make (with external amp and bi-amped) but when he gave me a guesstimate on the pricing, I needed instant medical attention.. They would basically be like his Sparks and priced accordingly.


Oops!  I wondered if Mark might have a solution for you which is why I asked really. But yeah... it's crazy to pay megabucks for speakers that handle so little of the total sound.



audioguy said:


> And while I think having all matching speakers would be nice, I think once they are all Audysseyized, the differences become pretty minimal in the grand scheme of things. I have a friend who has Dunlavy surrounds (4) and center channel, Magico L + R, Seaton subs (2 SubMersives and 2 of those ginormous Terraforms) and is getting yet another brand of 4 speakers for his ceiling. I really do not hear any issues when there is a pan through his front three speakers.


This is so true. I used to be in the 'you must timbre match' camp, but not any more. With competent room EQ like XT32, the speakers are brought into line with each other to a remarkable degree. I have matching M&K S150 LCR speakers, and all my others are Tannoys and once Audyssey has done its thing I can't hear any significant tonal changes on pans from the front to rear or to the overheads. I think timbre matching was very important in the days before electronic REQ was commonplace, but not so much these days.



audioguy said:


> All that to say, I won't be getting Seaton ceiling speakers unless I win the lottery soon!!


And even if you did, TBH I think it would be crossing the line between spending money and wasting money.



audioguy said:


> And by the way; Audyssey on his 5200 did a MUCH better job than Audyssey on his 80.3. Bass response below 20hz was better AND, amazingly, the splice between his subs and mains/center was spot on. No adjustment in sub distance necessary. That has NEVER happened to him or me. Also, we both liked what the Dolby Surround option did better than PLZIIx (or whatever it's called).


This is something I have been commenting on recently. My Denon 5200 calibration using plain old XT32 has delivered a result that exceeds what I was getting before with Pro + XT32 from my Onkyo 5509 flagship prepro. I have also not been able to improve the splice - for the first time ever. I have no real understanding of why this should be so, but several people are reporting the same. I find it hard to believe that Audyssey have improved XT32 in some way and then decided not to tell anyone. Of course, they have had to fiddle with XT32 in order to accommodate Atmos and there is the possibility, I guess, that they may have made some changes, either deliberately or inadvertently. But there is no denying my graph showing the cal results from XT32 and from Pro + XT32 on the Onk. The latest graph is at least as good, and possibly better. I don't understand it but I ain't complaining.



audioguy said:


> I purchased TF4 and it truly is an awful movie! That said, the audio is off the charts. I kept cranking up the volume until I was pretty close to reference. And since I'm on the second floor, LOTS of physical room movement. Interestingly enough, on some of the "fly over" scenes that were touched on in the various comments, because my surrounds are high, I had over the head experiences as well. Once I get my speakers selected and mounted and in the system, I will listen to at least parts of it again.


TF4 has a truly awesome soundtrack IMO. And with Atmos engaged it has a 'solidity' that I have never heard before. Each sound seems to have a physical presence in the room - not in overheads but also in all channels. I am looking forward to the Atmos release of Gravity in February. Another one I'd love to see is Godzilla - that has a stupifyingly good 7.1 soundtrack and it would be, I am sure, just amazing as an Atmos Bluray.



audioguy said:


> Thanks again for all of the effort you put into this forum. Much appreciated.


Thanks for the kind words - also much appreciated.


----------



## audioguy

The Audyssey thing seems to be a great freebie!! I will be interested in hearing what it does in my room. 99.99999999% of the difference we heard in our blind test between the Integra 80.3 and the $25,000 Datasat was the difference between Audyssey and Dirac. It is clear that Audyssey has improved. I still have the switch box I created for our blind testing and once I get my new system up and running, will compare them blind. This time, however I will not pre-listen to each system. While the listening test was blind, the differences were so obvious that once we knew what each sounded like, the blind part didn't help (only running a full 7.1 corrected system out of each SSP). I think the results may be much different. And if that's the case, there would be NO justification for purchasing something like the XMC since it can't support 3D and won't have a better room correction system. 

This whole room correction technology blows me away. I worked for SigTech for 10 years (digital room correction) and to install enough boxes to do a 7.1 system would cost somewhere between $25,000 and $30,000 (15 to 20 years ago). MiniDSP nanoAVR will take an 8 channel HDMI input and you can do Dirac on all 8 channels for (drum roll please): $549.00 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've noted that you have some time in the past lived in the US. Are you originally from here or from the UK?


----------



## kbarnes701

audioguy said:


> The Audyssey thing seems to be a great freebie!! I will be interested in hearing what it does in my room. 99.99999999% of the difference we heard in our blind test between the Integra 80.3 and the $25,000 Datasat was the difference between Audyssey and Dirac. It is clear that Audyssey has improved. I still have the switch box I created for our blind testing and once I get my new system up and running, will compare them blind. This time, however I will not pre-listen to each system. While the listening test was blind, the differences were so obvious that once we knew what each sounded like, the blind part didn't help (only running a full 7.1 corrected system out of each SSP). I think the results may be much different. And if that's the case, there would be NO justification for purchasing something like the XMC since it can't support 3D and won't have a better room correction system.


I agree. IMO modern electronics don't really have a 'sound' so any differences are due to REQ or DSP. The only justification I can see for the huge cost of the Datasats and Altitudes of this world are the feature sets, or unique feature's like Trinnov's speaker remapping (which isn't much use to me, or you, as we have our speakers where they belong anyway). The Altitude's 24.1.10 capability might be worth the money to someone with a commercial-sized HT but again serves no purpose for me. Other than those things, my 5200 will sound just as good as anything else.



audioguy said:


> This whole room correction technology blows me away. I worked for SigTech for 10 years (digital room correction) and to install enough boxes to do a 7.1 system would cost somewhere between $25,000 and $30,000 (15 to 20 years ago). MiniDSP nanoAVR will take an 8 channel HDMI input and you can do Dirac on all 8 channels for (drum roll please): $549.00 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Amazing isn’t it? Moore's Law.



audioguy said:


> I've noted that you have some time in the past lived in the US. Are you originally from here or from the UK?


I am from the UK. I lived and worked for 3 years in LA many years ago and have always regretted returning to the UK. I also owned a home in Florida for about 15 years and was a very frequent visitor. I can’t remember how many times I have visited the States - it is dozens. The US feels like my 'spiritual home' - I have no idea why, but it does. Whenever I arrive in the US, I feel like I have 'come home'. Had the same feeling on vacation last week in Florida. Unfortunately, I left it too late (family reasons) to emigrate to the US and now they won't have me because I don't meet the age profile any more. When I (rarely) use the UK Av forums, I always feel like a 'foreigner' there, but here I feel right at home. Odd thing isn't it?


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> Thank you so much for the kind words. On occasion I get too caught up in diddling and fiddling and measuring and sort of forget why I actually built the room.
> 
> Actually, Cat8's might work very well in your room for LCR's and in a room the size of yours, it would easily equal the 12's in my room.
> 
> I have purchased and am waiting delivery of the Marantz 7702. I didn't need the amps and liked the XLR connectors. First time Marantz owner.
> 
> I am undecided on the speakers. Part of me wants in-ceiling for cosmetic reasons but (a) not interested in putting a hole in the ceiling since I spent a lot of money trying to make the room as leak-proof as possible; (b) concerned about pointing, non-pointing and dispersion pattern; and (c) do-overs are messy and expensive so the trial and error approach (like what you did) is out of the question.
> 
> That takes me to on-ceiling. The ones you and Rodger and a few others have selected solves a, b, and c above but loses the cosmetic battle + they hang down so low and I have my 4 surrounds high on the wall, I am concerned about the angles. In fact, now that I think about it, when I did my calculations on the angles, I used a spot on the ceiling when in fact it would be about a foot lower than that. I am standing by until Rodger posts his results since his room is a good bit smaller and his surrounds are also high on his walls.
> 
> I have also talked to Mark Seaton on speakers he would make (with external amp and bi-amped) but when he gave me a guesstimate on the pricing, I needed instant medical attention.. They would basically be like his Sparks and priced accordingly.
> 
> And while I think having all matching speakers would be nice, I think once they are all Audysseyized, the differences become pretty minimal in the grand scheme of things. I have a friend who has Dunlavy surrounds (4) and center channel, Magico L + R, Seaton subs (2 SubMersives and 2 of those ginormous Terraforms) and is getting yet another brand of 4 speakers for his ceiling. I really do not hear any issues when there is a pan through his front three speakers.
> 
> All that to say, I won't be getting Seaton ceiling speakers unless I win the lottery soon!!
> 
> And by the way; Audyssey on his 5200 did a MUCH better job than Audyssey on his 80.3. Bass response below 20hz was better AND, amazingly, the splice between his subs and mains/center was spot on. No adjustment in sub distance necessary. That has NEVER happened to him or me. Also, we both liked what the Dolby Surround option did better than PLZIIx (or whatever it's called).
> 
> I purchased TF4 and it truly is an awful movie! That said, the audio is off the charts. I kept cranking up the volume until I was pretty close to reference. And since I'm on the second floor, LOTS of physical room movement. Interestingly enough, on some of the "fly over" scenes that were touched on in the various comments, because my surrounds are high, I had over the head experiences as well. Once I get my speakers selected and mounted and in the system, I will listen to at least parts of it again.
> 
> Thanks again for all of the effort you put into this forum. Much appreciated.


I will be anxious to hear your impressions on the 7702. It is on my short list, along with the Marantz 8801(assuming a good deal can be had once the 8802's come out) to integrate in my system. Atmos isn't a priority for me, just something that has XLR's to compliment my new CAT-12's.

Mark has also mentioned his surrounds to me and I have interest, but the price is a bit higher than I would like...so who knows.


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> I will be anxious to hear your impressions on the 7702. It is on my short list, along with the Marantz 8801(assuming a good deal can be had once the 8802's come out) to integrate in my system. Atmos isn't a priority for me, just something that has XLR's to compliment my new CAT-12's.
> 
> Mark has also mentioned his surrounds to me and I have interest, but the price is a bit higher than I would like...so who knows.


The question for you then is the demonstrably improved ability of Audyssey on the 5200/7702 also in the 8801 and I will have no way to test that. 

Also, the Dolby Upmixer in the newer products to my ears and those of a friend is superior to Dolby PL xII and you don't get that in the 8801.


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> The question for you then is the demonstrably improved ability of Audyssey on the 5200/7702 also in the 8801 and I will have no way to test that.
> 
> Also, the Dolby Upmixer in the newer products to my ears and those of a friend is superior to Dolby PL xII and you don't get that in the 8801.


Those are some points and I appreciate the information.


----------



## audioguy

I have updated my list of equipment on the first page to include the speakers, amps and SSP changes installed to support Atmos (and Auro).

I am somewhat less than thrilled with the Marantz 7702. I have spent HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS trying to eliminate a low level hum. This is the first time in my audio experience that I have not been able to ultimately solve the problem. I have replaced the unit. Tried cheater plugs, different combinations of outlets, disconnected everything imaginable, etc. The 7702 does not use a grounded plug so I stuck a piece of wire into the empty spot on a 3 pronged cord and attached the other end to a screw on the 7702. Nominal improvement. More of my efforts can be seen in the 7702 thread. No one else seems to be having this issue. 

Furthermore, with my Integra 80.2, there were a number of optional listening modes that would enhance 2 channel music. The only one that seems to be available is the Dolby Surround Upmixer (DSU) and is has the rear surrounds WAAAAAAAAY to hot. 

Not a happy camper. Note to self: Probably should have waited for the next evolution of Atmos/Auro SSP's.  

I am also having some noise on my ceiling speakers from my Emotiva amp. It, too, only uses a cord that does not have a ground pin. This noise is not from the 7702 as it continues even if I disconnect the 7702 from the amp.

I will have to get an electrician here to assist as I am at a loss.

I will also be lowering my surrounds as they are almost 6 feet high or approximatley 2.5 feet above my ears. Worked great in a 7.1 system but may be diminishing the overall effect of a 7.1.4 system. Will be lowering them to about 50 inches.

That said Atmos (or just DSU) is clearly an upgrade to immersion quality of every movie we have watched.


----------



## TMcG

I always forget how epic your theater is for some reason. Really, really nice setup!!

Sorry to hear about your issues with the 7702. I've fully resigned myself to selecting a SSP in September of next year (CEDIA), after the new crop of hardware is revealed. Everything should be HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 by then so no worries for full resolution 4K.

I always had a question for you but never asked.....do you notice any time alignment / phasing issues with the L&R pulled out so far in front of the screen and the center hidden behind the screen @ 6-8 feet back from the L&R??


----------



## audioguy

TMcG said:


> I always forget how epic your theater is for some reason. Really, really nice setup!!


Thank you very much. Acoustically, it is very very good. However, I wrestled for a long time on the aesthetics of my theater. I knew that in the form vs function equation, function was far more important. But since I completed my theater, I have seen quite a few examples of other completed theaters that could have provided both. I even considered some kind of "retrofit". I did make a few color changes to the acoustic panels, I may end adding some rope lights but other than that, I will continue to focus on tweaking the audio I have. Even looking at some big changes in that area. My issue at the moment is a hum/buzz that I have been unable to isolate since I purchased the 7702. I even swapped it for another but since it was shipped at the same time, if there were a hardware issue, this one would have it as well. 

I was hoping to see more "almost complete" photos of yours. I will subscribe.



> Sorry to hear about your issues with the 7702. I've fully resigned myself to selecting a SSP in September of next year (CEDIA), after the new crop of hardware is revealed. Everything should be HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 by then so no worries for full resolution 4K.


I wish I had waited. Not for the whole HDMI thing (or the buzz) because there are workarounds. But with Auro and Atmos having incompatible speaker layouts, there is currently no good ways with the current crop of SSP's to take full advantage of both - without having to re-load various configurations. It is FUN, however and when you finally do decide to pull the trigger, you will enjoy it a lot.



> I always had a question for you but never asked.....do you notice any time alignment / phasing issues with the L&R pulled out so far in front of the screen and the center hidden behind the screen @ 6-8 feet back from the L&R??


ZERO issues. The room correction software addresses all of that plus, in my OCD case, I use impulse measurements from all of the front speakers (and surrounds) to really tighten up the time alignment.


----------



## TMcG

audioguy said:


> I was hoping to see more "almost complete" photos of yours. I will subscribe.


This is my hope as well but sadly it is not....yet. However, full renderings of the room are nearing completion and will be posted within the next month or so. The finish materials are so expensive that I felt I needed the renderings to help avoid any expensive 'oops' with the design aesthetic. It will also help me with materials estimation.



audioguy said:


> I wish I had waited. Not for the whole HDMI thing (or the buzz) because there are workarounds. But with Auro and Atmos having incompatible speaker layouts, there is currently no good ways with the current crop of SSP's to take full advantage of both - without having to re-load various configurations. It is FUN, however and when you finally do decide to pull the trigger, you will enjoy it a lot.


The final piece of the speaker layout puzzle should be revealed next week at CES when DTS (hopefully) announces the home specifications for their MDA/UHD 3D audio codec. To your point I *hope* there is some kind of forthcoming standardization in the speaker layout that will work for all three codecs. Maybe I am recalling incorrectly, is it not the case for the high channel count processors that they will accommodate whatever speaker layout you have and make all the time, filter, delay, EQ and phase adjustments accordingly?

I've been vacillating between two audio layers vs. three and figured I would just wire for three and rest easy with my prewire. So two full 11 channel beds and then 8 ceiling speakers plus all the LFE. I'll land around 22.4.8 for my final config. with 11.4.4 being the minimum first iteration.


----------



## Spanglo

audioguy said:


> I will also be lowering my surrounds as they are almost 6 feet high or approximatley 2.5 feet above my ears. Worked great in a 7.1 system but may be diminishing the overall effect of a 7.1.4 system. Will be lowering them to about 50 inches.


Very nice looking theater, and great choice of hardware. 

Good idea lowering the surrounds. I was running high surrounds too, but lowered them for the best overall sound with overheads. 

For the same reasons you toed in the main speakers, it's worth doing the same with the surrounds and overheads.


----------



## audioguy

Spanglo said:


> Very nice looking theater, and great choice of hardware.
> 
> Good idea lowering the surrounds. I was running high surrounds too, but lowered them for the best overall sound with overheads.
> 
> For the same reasons you toed in the main speakers, it's worth doing the same with the surrounds and overheads.


Thanks for the complement.

The left and right surround are aimed right at my ear, The rear surrounds are aimed straight ahead. The front two height speakers now aim to the floor just in front of me and the rear Overheads aim at the floor just behind me.


----------



## phansson

AudioGuy, I have just installed the AV7702 and do NOT have any humming issues. Just a heads up. 

What Atmos speakers did you go with???


----------



## audioguy

phansson said:


> AudioGuy, I have just installed the AV7702 and do NOT have any humming issues. Just a heads up.


It's all a function of speaker sensitivity. Others who have highly sensitive speakers/amp combination have low level of hum/buzz as well. Contrary to what I was told by someone on AVS that is what the electrical system in my home (it was NOT), the 7702 is NOT dead quiet. If it is for you, that is great. Now that I have padded down all of my speakers, I no longer have hum/buzz either.



> What Atmos speakers did you go with???


Tannoy's


----------



## phansson

audioguy said:


> It's all a function of speaker sensitivity. Others who have highly sensitive speakers/amp combination have low level of hum/buzz as well. Contrary to what I was told by someone on AVS that is what the electrical system in my home (it was NOT), the 7702 is NOT dead quiet. If it is for you, that is great. Now that I have padded down all of my speakers, I no longer have hum/buzz either.
> 
> Tannoy's


I understand, I am running Parasound amps with Paradigm speakers. Maybe I got lucky with the processor...so far I have been quite pleased.


----------



## hometheatergeek

Good afternoon Chuck, I sent phansson (Patrick) your way since he was getting into the same processor and Atmos setup. Hope that was OK. I guess now I need to wait just a little longer before making the trip to your new home in order for you to get everything working with Atmos. 

BTW I wanted to come over during the holidays but we instead remodeled the first floor in our home with carpet, Luxury Vinyl flooring and granite countertops. Again if you are in the area where I live don't hesitate to call.


----------



## audioguy

I am selling my 3 Seaton Catalysts 12C’s and their stands as a package. And am also selling my Seaton Sparks.

Why am I selling: As my wife will tell you, it has been an excruciating decision. But I was presented an opportunity to purchase some speakers by Triad (Platinum LCR's for the front and In Room Silver Monitors for the 4 surrounds) for a once-in-a-lifetime price so the OCD audiophile in me wanted to give it a go.

I can say without hesitation that the Catalysts are by far the best home theater system I have ever owned and at the price new, are just an incredible deal. My new speakers cost double and require the purchase of amps in addition. 

If interested see http://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-audio-gear/1857994-fs-seaton-catalysts-sparks.html


----------



## audioguy

These showed up today: (3 Platinum LCR's and 4 In-Room Silver Monitors)



And thinking about 4 of these:



If I were in a basement instead of the second floor, I would get even more. As it is with my 4 SubMersives, the entire room moves when serious bass shows up at ref minus 5 [ or sometimes a tad higher  ]


----------



## audioguy

I have updated my first post with the equipment list but will need to update photos once my new speaker wire is in place hopefully later this week. 

I did some preliminary listening with 2 channel only. My observations:

I ran a quick (non-Pro) Audyssey run and had to adjust the bass (Audyssey messed up the trim for some reason). Maybe I did 3 or 4 hours of listening:

- I did not make a mistake buying these speakers
- They do need break in
- They seem to be as dynamic as my previous speakers (big relief)
- They do not sound like my previous speakers
- They are smoother in the mid/tweet crossover area
- They are NOT a forgiving speaker
- The OmniMic measured response after Audyssey is much too flat for my tastes for music. Tomorrow I will run Dirac. And when the other amp comes back, I will try Audyssey Pro with a slightly different target
- The (after and before Audyssey) frequency response seems a lot more balanced than my previous speaker. I hear more of everything (if that makes any sense)
- They will play very loud cleanly
- I'm sure after more fiddling and time, they will improve - but out of the box they are a really, really great speaker.
- They integrate well with my 4 subs
- Can't wait to hear all 7 Triads playing together - both music and movies.
- Like my previous speaker, they are a "fun" speaker (I gave up “accurate” a long time ago)
- Now the serious tweaking begins - but I'm already 80% to 90% there!!


----------



## rx-8

audioguy said:


> I have updated my first post with the equipment list but will need to update photos once my new speaker wire is in place hopefully later this week.
> 
> I did some preliminary listening with 2 channel only. My observations:
> 
> I ran a quick (non-Pro) Audyssey run and had to adjust the bass (Audyssey messed up the trim for some reason). Maybe I did 3 or 4 hours of listening:
> 
> - I did not make a mistake buying these speakers
> - They do need break in
> - They seem to be as dynamic as my previous speakers (big relief)
> - They do not sound like my previous speakers
> - They are smoother in the mid/tweet crossover area
> - They are NOT a forgiving speaker
> - The OmniMic measured response after Audyssey is much too flat for my tastes for music. Tomorrow I will run Dirac. And when the other amp comes back, I will try Audyssey Pro with a slightly different target
> - The (after and before Audyssey) frequency response seems a lot more balanced than my previous speaker. I hear more of everything (if that makes any sense)
> - They will play very loud cleanly
> - I'm sure after more fiddling and time, they will improve - but out of the box they are a really, really great speaker.
> - They integrate well with my 4 subs
> - Can't wait to hear all 7 Triads playing together - both music and movies.
> - Like my previous speaker, they are a "fun" speaker (I gave up “accurate” a long time ago)
> - Now the serious tweaking begins - but I'm already 80% to 90% there!!


Congratulations !!!


----------



## audioguy

*Attention all true audio/video addicts. *

Be careful about saying (at least in writing or within earshot of anyone else) ANYTHING about "no more upgrades". As I re-read these proclamations I made in a post about a year ago, my only response could be "oops"!! 

Since my dogmatic comments about loving what I have, no interest in making any changes, and being retired so I can't afford to keep playing this game, I have made the following changes:

- Rebuilt all of the columns in the room so that I could lower my 4 surrounds:

- Purchased a new surround processor to enable Atmos

- Purchased a new Emotiva XPA-5 amp to drive 4 new ceiling speakers

- Purchased and installed 4 new Atmos ceiling speakers

- Purchased 7 new Triad speakers to replace the 7 Seaton speakers I had when I made these quotes

- Purchased an amp (d-sonic) to drive these 7 new speakers

If that's what "no more changes/upgrades" looks like, can you only imagine what it would look like if I really got purposeful on upgrades. Sick! Sick! Sick!




audioguy said:


> 
> I have no doubt that the addition of either heights and/or wides might improve the overall experience, but *I have to stop somewhere.*
> 
> I have ZERO complaints *nor any desire to add more stuff* .... other than an improved SSP. My HT audio and video is as good as I have ever heard/seen at any price anywhere and, my 2 channel music listening is way more than adequate!!
> 
> And, should I desire to add either heights or wides, I will move the rear surrounds to operate in that capacity.
> 
> Lastly, I am going to be fully retired soon *and the ability to spend 47 bazillion dollars quarterly (or whatever it costs to maintain this addiction), will no longer be an option*


----------



## TMcG

Don't forget about your upgrade to a 4K Oppo Bluray this winter.....oh, and a 4K projector at some point


----------



## audioguy

*4*



TMcG said:


> Don't forget about your upgrade to a 4K Oppo Bluray this winter.....oh, and a 4K projector at some point


Already have the 4K projector (Sony 600ES). And I don't need your (or anyone else's) help at spending my money. Apparently I have it down to a fine art.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Already have the 4K projector (Sony 600ES). And I don't need your (or anyone else's) help at spending my money. Apparently I have it down to a fine art.


Glad to have not helped! 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Glad to have not helped!
> 
> Craig


----------



## wse

audioguy said:


> We moved from another home and brought with us our theater equipment less the screen, masking system and room treatment.
> 
> The current room dimensions are 22 x 19.3 x 7'11". The room was originally a loft but we basically built an entire new room: double dry wall; Green Glue, carpet underlay to reduce sound from creeping into other parts of the house, new doors and door seals and thresholds, sealed all electrical outlets. The room was originally 27 feet long but took off 5 feet to get better acoustic dimensions and to have a place for my equipment and media storage. Also, we needed space for the center channel which is behind the AT screen
> 
> It's about 95% complete but we have watched our first movie. Listening to music using DiracLive on my server is excellent. Movies with Audyssey needs more work -- but we are close
> 
> VIDEO EQUIPMENT: Sony 600ES w/ Powered Panamorph Anamorphic Lens and sled and Sony 4K Media Player; Screen Masking System by Carada; Seymour Acoustically Transparent 2:35 120 x 51 inch screen (1.1 Gain - XD Material);
> 
> SPEAKERS: LCR: Triad Platinum LCR's; SUBS: Seaton SubMersive HP (4); Surrounds: Tirad Silver InRoom Monitors; (4) Tannoy Di6 DC heights (Atmos/Auro)
> 
> ELECTRONICS: Marantz 7702 (with Audyssey Pro); APS 2000 Power Conditioner; Emotiva XDA-2 -- USB D to A Converter (not in use); Emotive XPA-5 driving the 4 ceiling speakers; d-sonic 7 channel amp (800 x 3 and 400 x 4); Emotive XPA-5 driving height speakers
> 
> SOURCES: Music Vault Diamond Music Server (J River and J Remote for controlling my music server); Dirac Live room correction software running on MusicVault; Oppo BD103D Bluray Player which includes DARBEE DARBLET High-Defintion Image Enhancer; DirecTV DVR; Apple TV
> 
> ROOM STUFF: Theater chairs by Berkline; Room design and all acoustic treatment by GIK
> 
> MISCELLANEOUS: BlueJeans Cables (XLR and Single Ended)
> 
> Old Photos will be replaced once I clean up the room!!


Very nice 10/10


----------



## kwok lau

Simple, neat and tidy setup. Great theater you have. Congratulations.
Show us more photos upon any change or addition equipment in due course.


----------



## audioguy

kwok lau said:


> Simple, neat and tidy setup. Great theater you have. Congratulations.
> Show us more photos upon any change or addition equipment in due course.


Thank you so much. I hope to post new photos by next week.


----------



## kwok lau

Audioguy, I have posted a few photos of my theater a few hours earlier (title - Kwok's theater setup). Have you checked it out yet? Happy sharing and viewing of what we have achieved. Awaiting your new photo posting. Cheers.
Kwok Lau


----------



## kbarnes701

audioguy said:


> Thank you so much. I hope to post new photos by next week.


Looking forward to seeing the updated photos. Great room you've made there! Green with envy.


----------



## audioguy

I have updated the photos on my first post. I used a fairly wide angle lens so the room size appears odd. But it is 22 feet long, 19+ feet wide and 7'11" high (was 8 feet but double drywall on the ceiling and an underlayment under the carpet pad).

I am truly blessed to be able to go that room and either listen to music or watch a movie, or during college football, season, watch lots of games. 

I have said this more than once, but I quit chasing "accurate" a long time ago. Not a realistic goal (but an incredibly expensive one). I have heard multi-hundred thousand dollar 2 channel systems, that while truly spectacular, and at moments, could lead one to visualize, for example a small jazz club, but falls incredibly short of the real deal.

I sang in a 150 person choir for over 25 years along with a 30 piece orchestra. I had season tickets to the Atlanta symphony for about 25 years. I know what live music sounds like and it ain't happening with a home sound reproduction system. The proverbial nail in the coffin came when 3 years ago, my wife hired (as a surprise to me) a 3 piece jazz combo for my birthday that played in our home. I then officially got off the "accurate" train and immediately jumped onto the "fun" or "entertaining" train. 

And that is exactly what I have with Atmos, my amazing Seaton subs and now my new Triad speakers.

About a week or so ago, I had my "audiophile" card taken from me. I got hooked on a bunch of DVD-A multi-channel surround music that was loaned to me. Of course there should not be "voices" coming from the surrounds. But according to who? For "accurate", probably not. But for "fun" or entertaining", absolutely. And play those DVD-A discs through DSU and wowzer - even more fun.

The only thing I might try would be to move the left and right speaker more toward the screen wall by a couple of feet. When we have guests to watch a movie, I take the outside seat and I am really close to the left speaker. The reason I probably will not do so is that the distance between the surrounds and the mains would then get larger and the needs for wides would increase -- which means two more columns, and two more speakers and changing the 1st reflection point acoustics.


----------



## COACH2369

Those speakers look amazing in your room.

Love the clean look of your surrounds too.

Very nice..


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> About a week or so ago, I had my "audiophile" card taken from me. I got hooked on a bunch of DVD-A multi-channel surround music that was loaned to me. Of course there should not be "voices" coming from the surrounds. But according to who? For "accurate", probably not. But for "fun" or entertaining", absolutely. And play those DVD-A discs through DSU and wowzer - even more fun.


Those discs with vocals in the surrounds are mixed with the "in the band" perspective. IOW, the intent is to provide the perspective of being on stage with the band. It's kind of the way the musicians experience the soundstage. It's clearly not "accurate" from the audience perspective, but it sure is FUN!



audioguy said:


> The only thing I might try would be to move the left and right speaker more toward the screen wall by a couple of feet. When we have guests to watch a movie, I take the outside seat and I am really close to the left speaker. The reason I probably will not do so is that the distance between the surrounds and the mains would then get larger and the needs for wides would increase -- which means two more columns, and two more speakers and changing the 1st reflection point acoustics.


I love my Wides... just sayin'... 

(That last comment was intended to encourage you spend more money!!!)    

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> (That last comment was intended to encourage you spend more money!!!)
> 
> Craig


I think that's your second profession!


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> Those speakers look amazing in your room.
> 
> Love the clean look of your surrounds too.
> 
> Very nice..


Thanks. All of this came about trying to find speskers that would fit in my columns!


----------



## pmd1117

gorgeous theater room


----------



## audioguy

The


pmd1117 said:


> gorgeous theater room


Thank you very much. I would call it sort of a "Classic Utilitarian" look where in the "function vs form" battle, function had the stronger hand.

It has more of the feel of a recording studio than some of the more "theatery" looking designs many have. But more importantly it sounds incerdible.

Thanks again for the kind words.


----------



## kbarnes701

Thanks for the updated photos. A truly lovely room. I prefer the 'studio' look to the more 'theatery' look personally, so it is close to my ideal. I bet it sounds amazingly good and gives a fabulous 'theatrical' presentation of movies.

One question: what is the sled you are using for your anamorphic lens? How hard or easy was it to include in the setup of the PJ and integration into the PJ mount? I happen to own an ISCO anamorphic lens that I currently don't use as I have no means of mounting it.


----------



## scales

Very nice, wish I had the space.


----------



## audioguy

kbarnes701 said:


> One question: what is the sled you are using for your anamorphic lens? How hard or easy was it to include in the setup of the PJ and integration into the PJ mount? I happen to own an ISCO anamorphic lens that I currently don't use as I have no means of mounting it.


The sled and mounting plate (and lens) all came from Panamorph. The mounting plate is PJ specific but if you have one for another PJ, new holes can be drilled (I have one for a JVC for a very cheap price in case you are interested). I think the plate was about $600 new. You might try contacting Panamorph and see if they can help - or try contacting ISCO and see what/who they recommend.

Or -- do what a friend has done and permanently mount your lens (I gotta believe ISCO has some permanent mounting plate available).


----------



## audioguy

scales said:


> Very nice, wish I had the space.


Thank you. When we were looking for this home, the most important criteria _*for me*_ was a room for a dedicated theater as large as possible. I was hoping for a basement and while that was a possibility, this was the much less expensive option.


----------



## kbarnes701

audioguy said:


> The sled and mounting plate (and lens) all came from Panamorph. The mounting plate is PJ specific but if you have one for another PJ, new holes can be drilled (I have one for a JVC for a very cheap price in case you are interested). I think the plate was about $600 new. You might try contacting Panamorph and see if they can help - or try contacting ISCO and see what/who they recommend.
> 
> Or -- do what a friend has done and permanently mount your lens (I gotta believe ISCO has some permanent mounting plate available).


Thanks. I will investigate further. Until I saw yours, I had forgotten the ISCO was in storage here.


----------



## audioguy

I just found this photo. This was three theaters ago. Had the tweeter had much better power handling capacity, I would still own them. 550 pounds each, 74 inches tall, and 91 db efficient. 

For those that don't recognize these, they are Dunlavy SC-VI's. Probably the best measuring speaker built (impulse response, FR, step response, etc). This particular pair spent over 30 hours in his anechoic chamber, fine tuning the crossover.

Oh well - time marches on!!


----------



## Geoff4RFC

audioguy said:


> I just found this photo. This was three theaters ago. Had the tweeter had much better power handling capacity, I would still own them. 550 pounds each, 74 inches tall, and 91 db efficient.
> 
> For those that don't recognize these, they are Dunlavy SC-VI's. Probably the best measuring speaker built (impulse response, FR, step response, etc). This particular pair spent over 30 hours in his anechoic chamber, fine tuning the crossover.
> 
> Oh well - time marches on!!


LOL, time in deed, does march on!! Very nice stuff though man, and this old pic of yours, quite impressive!!!


----------



## audioguy

After now having lived with this new system for a while, I am really learning to appreciate how really good these speakers (and, apparently the amp driving them) really are. 

*First the amp*: The d-sonic amp drives 800 watts into the three front channels and 400 into the other 4. Power increases as the impedance drops, not quite doubling as it reaches 4 ohms. I have the amp plugged into a 20 amp power re-conditioner (PurePower 2000) which is plugged into a 20 amp circuit. EVERY other piece of equipment I have, except the amp driving the ceiling speakers (Emotiva), is also connected either directly or indirectly to this PurePower 2000. The display of the PurePower shows the percentage of it capacity being used. When I am playing at the typical levels at which I usually listen, the max percent of power used is 34%. Yes, you read that right. 

Here is what is plugged into that PurePower: Sony 600ES projector; Anamorphic lens sled; PC running music server; Bluray player; Contro4 controller; DirecTV box; Marantz 7702; Sony 4K Server; AppleTV; Emotiva DAC; and of course the amp. That is only possible because the amp (d-sonic) is an incredibly efficient Class D amp. For grins, I am going to plug the Emo amp in as well (200 watts into 5 channels but only 4 are used). Given it is only driving the ceiling speakers, my guess is that the PurePower will still operate under capacity.

Two other great things about the PurePower: (1) since it is battery backed, power losses (either momentary or longer) protect the equipment and keep it running for quite some time (depending on the draw even if you lose total power in the house. You then have time to shut the various components down properly; (2) For peak power requirements, you can actually draw more than the circuit can provide since the batteries can supply the extra power. Since I now have everything plugged into one of these, I am selling the other one (PurePower 1100) – only difference is that is is for a 15 amp circuit. I think it was $2400 new and I sell for $1350 plus shipping.

*The speakers: *While I did get to hear these speakers prior to ordering mine and loved what I heard, I did not know what they would sound like in my room and over the long haul. Well, I love them even more than when I first heard them. And when I first got them up and running, I thought they sounded a lot like the Catalysts – but they really don’t. 

As I stated elsewhere, I first thought the Plats were not as dynamic as the Catalysts. And by some measures, they are not. There is a certain “bite” to the Catalysts that give the appearance of increased dynamics - and it particularly shows up in movies where there are crashes, gun shots, etc. The Catalysts are INCREDIBLY dynamic, but at the slight expense of a grain or edge or harshness that can heard on _some_ vocals. I have been told that that edge (and the sense of dynamics) comes from the compression tweeter used in the Catalysts. The Triad Platinums, on the other hand, are dynamic for other reasons and, they do not have the bite that I refer to. The Plats use a dome tweeter. The Plats have an incredibly smooth midrange and top end. And like the Cats, can play REALLY loud if you are so inclined. But since I almost now never listen to two-channel, I need to comment on how well all 7 speakers operate as a unit. In a word – remarkable. 

Some suggest that is due to the fact that all 7 speakers use the same midrange and tweeter. That may be part of it but the Seaton speakers do as well and the Triads do appear to provide a more cohesive 2D envelopment than did the Seatons. What is interesting is that the horizontal dispersion of the Triad In-Room Silver Monitors is not as wide as the Seaton Sparks. I found that out when trying to run Audyssey Pro as it would not recognize my rear speakers as real speakers until I toed them in toward the MLP. That was not necessary with the Sparks. 

I use the Dolby Surround Upmixer that is part of the Marantz 7702/Atmos capability, when listening to 2 channel music, The seamlessness of the speakers is quite impressive. Said another way, the sense of envelopment is incredible. 

As I make the comparison of the 7 Seaton speakers to the 7 Triad speakers (and amp), it’s important to keep in mind that the total MSRP of the Seaton speakers is right at *HALF* of the MSRP of the Triads (including the amp necessary to drive the Triads), so we really are not comparing Apple to Apples. As I have said numerous times, I still believe the Catalysts are the very best value in high end speakers I have ever heard. 

And for anyone reading this, I am a huge fan of Atmos, DSU and the ceiling speakers. It is only the 2nd change I have ever made that my wife commented on (positively) , the first being going to the Sony 600ES projector from my JVC. While there are not many Atmos Blurays yet (maybe 6 to 10), the up-mixing ability (DSU) of the 7702 on legacy encoded tracks is awesome – more so on some Blurays than others, but the audio on every movie we have watched using DSU has been greatly improved.

Loving my decision. That said, I will be staying away from Axpona, CEDIA, CES and CraigJohn to insure I don’t drain my bank account prematurely !!!


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> *The speakers: *While I did get to hear these speakers prior to ordering mine and loved what I heard, I did not know what they would sound like in my room and over the long haul. Well, I love them even more than when I first heard them.



Oh, so you're saying they sound better in your room than they did in mine? Well... (sulks away in self-righteous indignation.) 

Just kidding.  Of course they sound better. They're 12 years newer than mine. And Triad has implemented at least one crossover improvement in the intervening years. Plus you're room acoustical treatment plan was designed and implemented by Glenn Kuras himself. Mine was home-brewed by me. Mine works... I'm sure yours works better. Mine is just absorption... yours uses absorption plus a lot of diffusion. 




audioguy said:


> And when I first got them up and running, I thought they sounded a lot like the Catalysts – but they really don’t.


There are certianly some similarities between the Cats and the Plats. They both have strong, tight mid and upper bass. They both have strong dynamics and massive output capbility. I think the Cats probably have stronger "maximum" output capability, but the Plats get as loud as I'll ever need them to go. The Plats have a "smoother" midrange, and, as you note below, they don't have the "bite" or the "edge" that the Cats have in the upper midrange. The Plats might be slightly less extended on the highest frequencies, but my hearing stops at 12 kHz, so that doesn't matter to me in the least. 
 



audioguy said:


> As I stated elsewhere, I first thought the Plats were not as dynamic as the Catalysts. And by some measures, they are not. There is a certain “bite” to the Catalysts that give the appearance of increased dynamics - and it particularly shows up in movies where there are crashes, gun shots, etc. The Catalysts are INCREDIBLY dynamic, but at the slight expense of a grain or edge or harshness that can heard on _some_ vocals. I have been told that that edge (and the sense of dynamics) comes from the compression tweeter used in the Catalysts. The Triad Platinums, on the other hand, are dynamic for other reasons and, they do not have the bite that I refer to. The Plats use a dome tweeter. The Plats have an incredibly smooth midrange and top end. And like the Cats, can play REALLY loud if you are so inclined. But since I almost now never listen to two-channel, I need to comment on how well all 7 speakers operate as a unit. In a word – remarkable.





audioguy said:


> Some suggest that is due to the fact that all 7 speakers use the same midrange and tweeter. That may be part of it but the Seaton speakers do as well and the Triads do appear to provide a more cohesive 2D envelopment than did the Seatons. What is interesting is that the horizontal dispersion of the Triad In-Room Silver Monitors is not as wide as the Seaton Sparks. I found that out when trying to run Audyssey Pro as it would not recognize my rear speakers as real speakers until I toed them in toward the MLP. That was not necessary with the Sparks.



I agree with the above completely. The envelopement and immersiveness of the Silver Monitors and the Plats is my favorite part of my system. The soundstage can be described as a "sonic hologram" with the listener in the middle of the hologram. 
 



audioguy said:


> I use the Dolby Surround Upmixer that is part of the Marantz 7702/Atmos capability, when listening to 2 channel music, The seamlessness of the speakers is quite impressive. Said another way, the sense of envelopment is incredible.


I use DTS Neo:X with Wides. I don't have Atmos at this point. My soundstage is immersive at ear level in "2D.". I can only imagine that it is more immersive to have a 3D "bubble" of sound. Still, at this point, there is no reasonably priced solution that can retain the Wides while adding the 4 overheads. So, for now, I'm not willing to give up my Wides for Overheads. Maybe when DTS:X comes out, it will allow Wides with Overheads. 




audioguy said:


> As I make the comparison of the 7 Seaton speakers to the 7 Triad speakers (and amp), it’s important to keep in mind that the total MSRP of the Seaton speakers is right at *HALF* of the MSRP of the Triads (including the amp necessary to drive the Triads), so we really are not comparing Apple to Apples. As I have said numerous times, I still believe the Catalysts are the very best value in high end speakers I have ever heard.


I agree. Having the amps included with the speakers, and adding the Seaton-implemented DSP in the amps, makes then an INCREDIBLE value. 




audioguy said:


> And for anyone reading this, I am a huge fan of Atmos, DSU and the ceiling speakers. It is only the 2nd change I have ever made that my wife commented on (positively) , the first being going to the Sony 600ES projector from my JVC. While there are not many Atmos Blurays yet (maybe 6 to 10), the up-mixing ability (DSU) of the 7702 on legacy encoded tracks is awesome – more so on some Blurays than others, but the audio on every movie we have watched using DSU has been greatly improved.





audioguy said:


> Loving my decision. That said, I will be staying away from Axpona, CEDIA, CES and CraigJohn to insure I don’t drain my bank account prematurely !!!


I'm planning to be in Atlanta in August. I should probably stay away from your place... or it could cause me to spend some significant money. You know... a new 4K projector, a new acoustic treatment strategy, a new music server... blah, blah, blah. 



Craig


----------



## audioguy

Craig:

The Catalyst is flatter in the top end than the Plat. The Plat is down maybe 5+db at 20K compared to the Catalyst. But since I can't hear anywhere near there, it makes no difference to me.

And you nailed the similarities between the Cats and the Plats.

About wides: I have been contemplating moving my main speakers (L and R) closer to the screen. Primarily so that the person on the most outside seat doesn't have a speaker staring him in th face (and that's usually me). One of the three reasons I have not done so is that the distance between the L and R and their corresponding surrounds would increase and hence force me to think about wides. I would be interested to know what the distance is between your right front speaker and the right surround. I will go measure mine and we can compare. While I can't say wides wouldn't help, I seem to have a reasonably good phantom image between the front and surrounds and when listening to 2 channel music and using DSU, the front soundstage widens as I would expect it to. 

(The other 2 reasons I don't want to move the fronts (1) a major pain in the backkside and a new Audssey measurement. (2) I have a door to the equipment room on the left side of the screen and moving the speakers could compromise access.

As for my system sounding better than yours: I don't know if it does or doesn't. But I can say that the longer I listen to these speakers, the more positive attributes I hear. And, as you noted, our rooms are very different. 

If your trip to Atlanta is prior to the end of August, we need to get together. I promise not to make you spend any more money - but should you decide to do so, I will assist in any way possible. 

If I were in your shoes, I would not jump into the 3D sound movement just yet. I'm glad I did but if DTS is going to make some announcement soon, waiting is a great strategy.

Emotiva has "pre-announced" an SSP that could be a killer: 16 channels, and will support all 3 D formats AND uses Dirac. Expected delivery, June 2048 or later !!


----------



## BrolicBeast

Hey Chuck, any luck with that track and experimenting with moving your speakers closer to the sidewalls?


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Hey Chuck, any luck with that track and experimenting with moving your speakers closer to the sidewalls?


I messed around some and had a friend come by and listen. We both agreed that I was about 80 to 85 degrees. In order to extract the other 5 to 10 degrees was a huge amount of time and effort so for now I will hold off.

Sometime soon I am going to experiment moving my L and R closer to the screen. When i do that, i will experiment with the clap signal.

My friend got the same results I did.

Thanks for sending that to me. Very informative!!?


----------



## carp

BrolicBeast said:


> Hey Chuck, any luck with that track and experimenting with moving your speakers closer to the sidewalls?





audioguy said:


> I messed around some and had a friend come by and listen. We both agreed that I was about 80 to 85 degrees. In order to extract the other 5 to 10 degrees was a huge amount of time and effort so for now I will hold off.
> 
> Sometime soon I am going to experiment moving my L and R closer to the screen. When i do that, i will experiment with the clap signal.
> 
> My friend got the same results I did.
> 
> Thanks for sending that to me. Very informative!!?



Do tell guys, what track is that?


----------



## audioguy

carp said:


> Do tell guys, what track is that?


You will need to say this slowly, It 's called the clap track. 

It is someone clapping and moving in an arc from side to side in front of your room. The object is to play with the placement and toe-in of your left and right speaker such that the outer most clap sounds like it is coming from 90 degrees - or directly to the left and right of the MLP. 

So to hone in on meeting the objective you would need to be moving the speakers toward and away from the side walls and adjusting toe-in. If my math serves me correctly, I think that works out to just under 73 billion combinations and permutations. 

As I noted, I got to about 80 to 85 degress and gave up for now.

Try at your own risk -


----------



## carp

audioguy said:


> You will need to say this slowly, It 's called the clap track.
> 
> It is someone clapping and moving in an arc from side to side in front of your room. The object is to play with the placement and toe-in of your left and right speaker such that the outer most clap sounds like it is coming from 90 degrees - or directly to the left and right of the MLP.
> 
> So to hone in on meeting the objective you would need to be moving the speakers toward and away from the side walls and adjusting toe-in. If my math serves me correctly, I think that works out to just under 73 billion combinations and permutations.
> 
> As I noted, I got to about 80 to 85 degress and gave up for now.
> 
> Try at your own risk -


Thanks - so it's track 4 on this disk?

http://www.amazon.com/XLO-Reference-Test-Burn-In/dp/B0000015AL/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top


Interesting. I should try this, I wish you could buy/download just the one track instead of the whole disk though.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Chuck, that room looks simply fantastic. I like the look of it. Having heard Craig's setup, I can imagine what this sounds like, minus the Atmos factor. I am sure it produces many smile inducing moments for you. All your gear is top notch. Craig has no reason to sulk away. I do though as I watch my 42in TV with my 5.1 Focal system . So again, congrats on assembling a reference level system.


----------



## audioguy

MIkeDuke said:


> Chuck, that room looks simply fantastic. I like the look of it. Having heard Craig's setup, I can imagine what this sounds like, minus the Atmos factor. I am sure it produces many smile inducing moments for you. All your gear is top notch. Craig has no reason to sulk away. I do though as I watch my 42in TV with my 5.1 Focal system . So again, congrats on assembling a reference level system.


Mike, thank you so much. It is a very fun (albeit expensive) hobby. I said this once before but I can envision no major changes in the future with a few possible exceptions and one for sure exception. 

While I love my SubMersives, I have sold them to raise money to pay for this speaker swap which ended up costing WAY more than I anticipated. I will be assembling 3 or 4 dual opposed 18 subs from DIY kits. Craig told me that the bass in Gorilla88's system was exceptional so that got me to make the change. I am hopeful that the bass will be at least as good as the SubMersives (a high set of expectations to say the least) AND won't cause my 2nd story theater to end up on the first story.

Two other possible changes: (1) the unofficially "announced" Emotiva SSP that reportedly supports 16 channels, all three 3D audio formats and Dirac and much much much lower down the priority list(2) sometime after 4K sources become available in quantity, add a video processor that includes the function of non linear stretch so that I can watch football (and other 16 x 9 sources) in full 2:35 and not cut off the top of center of the screen. A friend just installed that function and it is quite clever. But still way down the priority list.

And while your room may be small, that does not take away anything from the fine set of componets you have assembled. I have no doubt that it sound incredible.

Thank you again for your kind words. I really do love spending time in the theater with music, movies, concert videos, and football.


----------



## MIkeDuke

audioguy said:


> Mike, thank you so much. It is a very fun (albeit expensive) hobby. I said this once before but I can envision no major changes in the future with a few possible exceptions and one for sure exception.
> 
> While I love my SubMersives, I have sold them to raise money to pay for this speaker swap which ended up costing WAY more than I anticipated. I will be assembling 3 or 4 dual opposed 18 subs from DIY kits. Craig told me that the bass in Gorilla88's system was exceptional so that got me to make the change. I am hopeful that the bass will be at least as good as the SubMersives (a high set of expectations to say the least) AND won't cause my 2nd story theater to end up on the first story.
> 
> And while your room may be small, that does not take away anything from the fine set of componets you have assembled. I have no doubt that it sound incredible.
> 
> Thank you again for your kind words. I really do love spending time in the theater with music, movies, concert videos, and football.


I did read that you were going the DIY way now for your subs. That should be interesting. I will look forward to see what you ultimately come up with. And thanks for the nice words. I am very pleased with how it sounds. With the SubMersive and Crowson setup, movies with bass really come alive. Even those movies where people complain about the bass I don't because I get everything on the disk, no matter what the level is. And the Focal's do sound really nice with music and movies.


----------



## The Bogg

Congrats on the room and gear Chuck! I guess you didn't use Rives this time, lol.


I'm still surprised you decided to get rid of the submersives. Can't wait to hear what you think of your diy sub.


I'm going to buy the XMC-1 just to try it out (my bro needs one anyway so I get to test drive it and then he gets it), and it sounds like DL is quite good.


I also stewed about what to do with the main speakers as I am mainly a 2 channel guy. In the end I left them and the centre channel out in the room with a dropdown AT screen. If I hid them behind a screen I'd have to question my own sanity at paying extra for the rosewood finish!


----------



## audioguy

The Bogg said:


> Congrats on the room and gear Chuck! I guess you didn't use Rives this time, lol.
> 
> 
> I'm still surprised you decided to get rid of the submersives. Can't wait to hear what you think of your diy sub.
> 
> 
> I'm going to buy the XMC-1 just to try it out (my bro needs one anyway so I get to test drive it and then he gets it), and it sounds like DL is quite good.
> 
> 
> I also stewed about what to do with the main speakers as I am mainly a 2 channel guy. In the end I left them and the centre channel out in the room with a dropdown AT screen. If I hid them behind a screen I'd have to question my own sanity at paying extra for the rosewood finish!


I had zero complaints wiht the SubMersives. LOVE them ..... but the swap to the new speakers has cost a lot more than I anticipated (lack of interest on my Seaton speakers). So I'm selling the subs and doing DIY to help pay for the upgrade.

If you can find a place to go listen to the Triad Platinums (properly setup), I highly recommend them.. I am primarily a music guy as well and they are incredible ---- but they do need subs

As for Rives (who has closed down), he was a really bad decision for me. This room sounds a LOT better than my last one and all of the "design" work was done by GIK with my input. Rives may have been OK for the huge, start from scratch deals, but all of the other stuff was really "cookie cutter".


----------



## The Bogg

My Rives room was from scratch but I think their rooms in general are a little too dry (based on the couple I've heard and your room decay time of 180ms which is the same as mine). I just saw that they closed down too. I did learn a lot during that process and hopefully I'll be able to translate some of that knowledge into my next build whenever that will be.


I'll definitely keep an eye out for an opportunity to hear the Platinums but I'm quite satisfied with my ATCs.


Keep us posted on the diy subs - I may follow suit one day!


----------



## Pain Infliction

Very nice equipment and room! I bet those Triad platinums sound amazing! I have heard the golds before and they sounded fantastic. Good luck with the rest of your recent journey!


----------



## audioguy

Pain Infliction said:


> Very nice equipment and room! I bet those Triad platinums sound amazing! I have heard the golds before and they sounded fantastic. Good luck with the rest of your recent journey!


Thanks for the complement. The longer I own the Triads, the more I appeciate some of the capabilities of these speakers. Having come from a compression driver tweeter (which does some nifty things in crash scenes in moves), vocals with this speaker are very sweet.

We watched Tony Bennett and Lady Gaga last night on a concert Bluray and while the vocals are very detailed, there is no etchiness or hardness to them at all. I was amazed, by the way, at how good Lady Gaga's voice was.

There is a cohesiveness to the sound I have not experience before. 

Because of the way Traid sells their speakers, I think they fly pretty far under the high end speaker radar. The dealer from whom I purchased them says, and I agree, they may be one of the best values in high end audio. (He sells Wisdom, Wilson and a number of other highly regarded speakers and he has been in the business well over 20 years).

While the transition to these speakers has been far from painless or inexpensive, I am really glad I went down this road.


----------



## mg316

awesome theater!


----------



## audioguy

mg316 said:


> awesome theater!


Thank you. We get a HUGE amount of pleasure from the investment we have made in this space.

Many are into the journey more than I currently am - although that was as much fun as the destination for me for a very lng time. I will be quite glad when this most recent segment is complete (4 DIY subs) and can just enjoy the theater.

(That said: the tweaking of the current audio system will probably neveer be complete)


----------



## jimim

your room is great, btw. really great job with the look of it. the plats look very much at home in there! lol

i have a question about your purepower. you have your amps going through it? i always thought amps should go directly into outlets? can you explain why. i just want to understand. the outlet the pure power is plugged into is that dedicated?

i wanted to do some kind battery backup for my room and maybe this might be the road to go if it's going to help keep things cleaner also.

my room is all 20 amp outlets that are run back to a dedicated 100 amp sub panel which has all the audio/video outlets on it's own 110 leg. the other leg is for networking components and another setup in my basement.

thanks again!
jim


----------



## darthray

What a Gorgeous room.


Well done on your finish and the nice equipment
I wish, I had this kind of space to work with.


Ray


----------



## audioguy

jimim said:


> your room is great, btw. really great job with the look of it. the plats look very much at home in there! lol
> 
> i have a question about your purepower. you have your amps going through it? i always thought amps should go directly into outlets? can you explain why. i just want to understand. the outlet the pure power is plugged into is that dedicated?
> 
> i wanted to do some kind battery backup for my room and maybe this might be the road to go if it's going to help keep things cleaner also.
> 
> my room is all 20 amp outlets that are run back to a dedicated 100 amp sub panel which has all the audio/video outlets on it's own 110 leg. the other leg is for networking components and another setup in my basement.
> 
> thanks again!
> jim


Thank you for the kind words. And the Plats do like this room. 

With my previous speaker system (Seaton Catalysts and Sparks - all powerd speakers), only the front end gear and the LCR were on the PurePower (I had a 15 amp version PurePower for the front end and 20 amp for the LCR). The surrounds, subs and ceiing speakers were just plugged into the wall.

I am now using a Class D amp (d-sonic outputting 800 watts into the LCR and 400 into the four surrounds) to drive all 7 of the ear level speakers and it is so efficient, that it, plus the front end gear only use about 35% of the capacity of the 20 amp PurePower. I have a 15 amp version boxed up to sell on which I had the front end gear from my previous system. At the moment, I only have the subs and ceiling speakers plugged into the wall. I am going to try the ceiling speakers plugged into the PurePower given it is only running at 35% capacity. That amp is an Emotiva XPA-5. The subs will always remain on their own. The front two subs are on a dedicated 20amp circuit and the rear two subs are on a different 20amp circuit.

There are many who say that these devices restrict dynamics. That has not been my experience. And if you contact PurePower, they will be able to tell you why their product will not do that. The way the PurePower is designed is that if the required (instantenous) load exceeds the output of the circuit (in my case a 20 amp circuit), the batteries in the PurePower will provide the difference. I don't know of any other product that does that, but there may be some.


----------



## audioguy

darthray said:


> What a Gorgeous room.
> 
> 
> Well done on your finish and the nice equipment
> I wish, I had this kind of space to work with.
> 
> 
> Ray


Thank you. My wife likes the look of the room and that is an important component (happy wife; happy life). In my last 3 home purchases (and one rental), I have made finding enough space for a listening room (initially 2 channel) the very highest priority. 

And before I had a large dedicated space (early 80's), I used a very large family room for my 2 channels listening (I must add that I was single at the time). That room was eventually filled with very large speakers (Apogee Divas) driven by huge Krell Mono Blocks. To this day and at any price I have yet to hear that kind of sound in my room. The room was large with 18 foot vaulted ceilings - and this was WAY before room correction technology. These speakers were on the opposite end of "amp friendly". I blew up several well regarded amps trying to drive them. The only amps that worked were Krell and Rowland.

Sorry. I sort of wandered off topic but the nostalgia button was pressed.


----------



## darthray

audioguy said:


> Thank you. My wife likes the look of the room and that is an important component (happy wife; happy life). In my last 3 home purchases (and one rental), I have made finding enough space for a listening room (initially 2 channel) the very highest priority.
> 
> And before I had a large dedicated space (early 80's), I used a very large family room for my 2 channels listening (I must add that I was single at the time). That room was eventually filled with very large speakers (Apogee Divas) driven by huge Krell Mono Blocks. To this day and at any price I have yet to hear that kind of sound in my room. The room was large with 18 foot vaulted ceilings - and this was WAY before room correction technology. These speakers were on the opposite end of "amp friendly". I blew up several well regarded amps trying to drive them. The only amps that worked were Krell and Rowland.
> 
> Sorry. I sort of wandered off topic but the nostalgia button was pressed.



Yes indeed it is a nice dedicated room
And your equipment is enough to make me drool


Mine is more like a man cave.
A long time Star Wars fan, I decided to built around that thyme and name the theater "Chimaera" a Star Destroyer. I found the name in a book.


Enjoy the fruits of your labour of love.


Ray


----------



## wse

audioguy said:


> We moved from another home and brought with us our theater equipment less the screen, masking system and room treatment.
> 
> The current room dimensions are 22 x 19.3 x 7'11". The room was originally a loft but we basically built an entire new room: double dry wall; Green Glue, carpet underlay to reduce sound from creeping into other parts of the house, new doors and door seals and thresholds, sealed all electrical outlets. The room was originally 27 feet long but took off 5 feet to get better acoustic dimensions and to have a place for my equipment and media storage. Also, we needed space for the center channel which is behind the AT screen
> 
> VIDEO EQUIPMENT: Sony 600ES w/ Powered Panamorph Anamorphic Lens and sled and Sony 4K Media Player; Screen Masking System by Carada; Seymour Acoustically Transparent 2:35 120 x 51 inch screen (1.1 Gain - XD Material);
> 
> SPEAKERS: LCR: Triad Platinum LCR's; SUBS: Seaton SubMersive HP (4); Surrounds: Tirad Silver InRoom Monitors; (4) Tannoy Di6 DC heights (Atmos/Auro)
> 
> ELECTRONICS: Marantz 7702 (with Audyssey Pro); APS 2000 Power Conditioner; Emotiva XDA-2 -- USB D to A Converter (used to send music to family room); Emotive XPA-5 driving the 4 ceiling speakers; d-sonic 7 channel amp (800 x 3 and 400 x 4)
> 
> SOURCES: Music Vault Diamond Music Server (J River and J Remote for controlling my music server); Dirac Live room correction software running on MusicVault; Oppo BD103D Bluray Player which includes DARBEE DARBLET High-Defintion Image Enhancer; DirecTV DVR; Apple TV
> 
> ROOM STUFF: Theater chairs by Berkline; Room design and all acoustic treatment by GIK
> 
> MISCELLANEOUS: BlueJeans Cables (XLR and Single Ended) and Speaker Wire
> 
> New Photos: These colors are not accurate. The wall paint is a fairly dark gray and the carpet is also a dark gray. The wide angle camera lens also distorts distances. My eyes are about 14 feet from the screen (120 inch wide). The front baffle of the speakers are about 5 feet in front of the wall. The front of the black panels under, over and to the right of the screen are about 5 inches from the wall. The front wall, behind the screen, is covered in 2 inches of acoustic material - the same stuff that is in the panels.


Very very nice great room


----------



## audioguy

wse said:


> Very very nice great room


Thank you so much. I have seen photos of your room many, many times. Simply gorgeous!! There is one other non-dedicated-theater room I have seen that I loved and it, too, had B&W speakers in it. I tried to find it prior to responding to your post, but could not.


----------



## wse

audioguy said:


> Thank you so much. I have seen photos of your room many, many times. Simply gorgeous!! There is one other non-dedicated-theater room I have seen that I loved and it, too, had B&W speakers in it. I tried to find it prior to responding to your post, but could not.


Thank you for the kind comments. One day I want to make a dedicated room with 22 speakers and four subs.

Here is what I am thinking about if I could have a dedicated room

At floor level nine speakers with four subs
- Three 800 Diamond
- Four 802 Diamond
- Two 805 Diamond
- Four JL Audio F113 or four B&W DB-1

Six feet above the floor in wall
- Nine B&W CCM-682 

In ceiling 
- Six B&W CCM-682


----------



## audioguy

wse said:


> Thank you for the kind comments. One day I want to make a dedicated room with 22 speakers and four subs.
> 
> Here is what I am thinking about if I could have a dedicated room
> 
> At floor level nine speakers with four subs
> - Three 800 Diamond
> - Four 802 Diamond
> - Two 805 Diamond
> - Four JL Audio F113 or four B&W DB-1
> 
> Six feet above the floor in wall
> - Nine B&W CCM-682
> 
> In ceiling
> - Six B&W CCM-682


That would be a monster room to hold all of that. One piece of advice and based upon personal experience - don't mount the surrounds at 6 feet. That is how mine were originally but really comprimised the "bubble effect" of Atmos. I would mount them just above ear level. Mine are at 49 iinches so they are not blocked by a head of someone on the same row. When I lowered them (expensive and messy) the sound improved dramatically!!

One last thing: Your theater is anything but "humble"


----------



## wse

audioguy said:


> That would be a monster room to hold all of that. One piece of advice and based upon personal experience - don't mount the surrounds at 6 feet. That is how mine were originally but really comprimised the "bubble effect" of Atmos. I would mount them just above ear level. Mine are at 49 iinches so they are not blocked by a head of someone on the same row. When I lowered them (expensive and messy) the sound improved dramatically!!
> 
> One last thing: Your theater is anything but "humble"


Thanks the B&W 800D are 46.5 inches tall and the B&W 802D are also about 44.7 inches tall so I am surrounded already with sound  For the second layers of speakers it would need to be at least a coule of feet higher!


----------



## audioguy

Seaton SubMersives have been sold and 4 DIY Stereo Integrity HST18's are in place but not yet fired up. I don't know if this will equal the fire power of what I had but if not, I will probably add 2 more HT18's (versus HST18's). I hope I don't have to add any more anything. I will start diddling with the miniDSP tomorrow.


----------



## audioguy

Everything is up and running. Some additional work to be done on placement of rear subs and I need to implement the miniDSP. FR of the subs is at least as good as the SubMersives with a little better response at about 100HZ.

Sound wise, I prefer the new subs over the old for movies. For music, there is a bit of "thumpiness" on some music that did not exist on the SubMersives. I need to track down to see if I can solve. 

Here is my Seaton vs SI HST18 comparison review I posted on the sub build thread:



> I have now had a chance to do some more listening to my 4 new subs. Conclusion: I made a great choice.
> 
> Here are some un-smoothed frequency response plots of the new subs. There are two places that these differ from the SubMersives. In the area between just above 20HZ and 50HZ (when looking at uncorrected response), the HST is about 3 db up. The other is that at 100z, my SubMersives went due south. There is a dip in the response starting at 100 but nothing like the SubMersives.
> 
> The black curve at the bottom is the front two subs (uncorrected) and the green curve is the rear two subs uncorrected. The blue curve at the top is all four subs combined. The red curve is after Audyssey has done it's thing. Audyssey claims they correct to 10HZ but I don't think so. Once I get my PC back (major infestation of viruses). I will run Audyssey Pro and see if it is any better. Based upon past experiences, it won't be or if so, not much. Hence the purchase of the miniDSP. I use Dirac on my music server and it gives perfectly flat bass (or whatever the target curve tells it to do). MUCH better than Audyssey.
> 
> 
> 
> I placed the 2 front subs in the exact location of the SubMersives (under the screen against the front wall and probably 4 to 5 feet from the sidewall. The rear subs are CLOSE to where the SubMersives were (left rear corner) but I will need to do some wiring changes to get them where I want them (I initially cut the wires too short – what a moron I was). . It should have no effect on the performance.
> 
> Everything about the performance of these subs compared to the SubMersives is at least as good or better or different (and may be better depending on your perspective).
> 
> Power Requirements: I’m pretty sure the amps [two Peavey 7500’s] aren’t breathing very hard given: (a) I don’t run much over Reference very often; (b) nor do I run the subs particularly hot (about 4 to 5 db.); (c) nor do I need much boost to get great response below 20HZ (room gain is my friend); and (d) I’m running at 4 ohms. I did crank up one scene from WOW and still no hard breathing. LOTS of headroom should I choose to need it (3400cf room).
> 
> Impact: The HST’s win. The SubMersive is no slouch in this department but when called upon to do so, these HST drivers will hit you in the face. It is not (usually) a night and day difference but the HST easily and consistently wins. There were a few scenes where the HST really did trounce the SubMersives
> 
> Cleanliness/Bass articulation: Having never built or heard a DIY sub, I was not sure what to expect. This was actually my biggest concern since I am a big music fan and sloppy bass, regardless of how impactful it is, is off limits. I am very pleased. Since I had no complaints about the SubMersives in this regard, I will call it a tie.
> 
> Tactile Sensation: When I first moved into this theater (from a basement in my previous home), I was not prepared for how much my chairs moved, as did the rest of the room. It took me a long while to get used to it but for the most part, I grew to appreciate it. On occasion, it did take me out of the movie. The HST’s activate the room differently and I have no clue why. The chairs still move but less but the overall room activation seems cleaner – if that makes any sense. It is no less “tactile” but very different. I think I like it better this way but time will tell. I know I have less driver area than previously (but more “potential” excursion) and that may account for it; or the other subs were dual opposed and that may account for it. Any ideas would be appreciated. If I decide I like the other tactile sensation more, I guess I could build two more HST’s but since I don’t know what creates the difference, I would hate to go that route and not get what I was looking for.
> 
> At the suggestion of another AVS member (CraigJohn), I am going to set the 4 cabinets on rolled up towels to de-couple the cabinet from the floor and see what that does. If that improves it, I will buy some feet (SVS sells some) that will do the same thing but a tad nicer looking than 4 towels.
> 
> Pricing: I have approximately $3700 in these 4 boxes, parts, drivers and 2 (used) amps. If I end up using the miniDSP, that will add an additional $350. 4 new SubMersives (Master/Slave version) will be about $8000. Given the availability of flat pack boxes and drivers like the SI HST18 (or even the HT18) AND the DIY thread here at AVS, I can think of no reason to not go DIY (other than lack of time or hands with 19 fingers on them who don’t know how to use some basic tools). I had no idea this kind of performance was available from a DIY project. In fact, it was Craig who got me to talk to Gorilla83 who is all about DIY. Craig had heard Gorilla83’s system which, at the time, had 8 SI HT18’ in it, and thought it killed his 3 SubMersives system and since I value Craig’s judgment, I went down that path.
> 
> The quality, robustness and performance of the SI HST18 is just off the charts. Nick does an incredible job with these things and I could not be more pleased. I am definitely glad I went the Stereo Integrity route. (Plus I got a bit of a workout schlepping around these 70 pounds drivers). Thanks Nick !!! (And by the way, Nick is a great guy to work with).
> 
> Conclusion: 4 Stereo Integrity HST 18’s meets or exceeds the performance of the 4 Seaton SubMersives – in my room and to my ears. I had a guy come by today who is very, very familiar with my room and system and he agrees totally with my conclusion.
> 
> The only downside to this entire project came as a result of changing my outlets to accommodate more amplifiers in my equipment room. The buzz/hum created by the Marantz 7702 which I had reduced considerably by using attenuators on every channel, is now worse than ever. I can’t add more attenuation on most channels since many of the trims on some channels would not handle the required increase. It will probably take me as long to find and fix this as it did to buy, build and install these 4 subs!!!!!
> 
> PS: I have owned and listened to a lot of "commercial" sub in my 40+ years in this hobby, and the Seaton SubMersive is clearly an outstanding product (easily the best commercial sub I had ever heard or owned), and for those who won't attempt DIY, they are a heck of a product and a great value. But for those who are willing to give it a go, DIY with Stereo Integrity drivers clearly outperforms them and at much less money.


----------



## audioguy

The new DIY/Stereo Integrity HST18 subs are awesome. But if awesome is good, a couple of more subs would be more awesome (awesomer?) .

I'm still not feeling the "earth move" as compared to my previous sub setup so I will see if I can replicate that with some EQ from the miniDSP. With the 4 SubMersives, the tactile sensation was definitely more noticable. The SubMersives had a built in DSP option, that when used, would lift the response from below 50HZ down. I can see the difference in the frequency plots of the two setups. (I'm on a suspended floor), If not, I will build a couple of more and since I already have enough amp power, the incremental cost is much more manageable. 

That notwithstanding, these subs are really amazing. And of course value wise, no contest. Highly recommended.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> The new DIY/Stereo Integrity HST18 subs are awesome. But if awesome is good, a couple of more subs would be more awesome (awesomer?) .
> 
> I'm still not feeling the "earth move" as compared to my previous sub setup so I will see if I can replicate that with some EQ from the miniDSP. With the 4 SubMersives, the tactile sensation was definitely more noticable. The SubMersives had a built in DSP option, that when used, would lift the response from below 50HZ down. I can see the difference in the frequency plots of the two setups. (I'm on a suspended floor), If not, I will build a couple of more and since I already have enough amp power, the incremental cost is much more manageable.
> 
> That notwithstanding, these subs are really amazing. And of course value wise, no contest. Highly recommended.


Looking very awesome! It might be cheaper and less time consuming to get a couple Crowsons for that tactile effect. Pass it to 40hz or below, and you'll be in bliss.


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Looking very awesome! It might be cheaper and less time consuming to get a couple Crowsons for that tactile effect. Pass it to 40hz or below, and you'll be in bliss.


That is a possibilty. The "feeling" previously is what I want to replicate. If the miniDSP doesn't get me there, i'll figure the next step.


----------



## carp

audioguy said:


> That is a possibilty. The "feeling" previously is what I want to replicate. If the miniDSP doesn't get me there, i'll figure the next step.


The mini should get your there. My room drops like a rock down low and with no dsp the diy subs were much lower at 20hz than at 40hz. With dsp I got all that low feel. You might be in a similar situation. The Submersives have built in dsp so I'm betting you were getting more output from 25hz and down from the Submersives than you are now but that will be fixed with dsp.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> That is a possibilty. The "feeling" previously is what I want to replicate. If the miniDSP doesn't get me there, i'll figure the next step.


It will certainly "get you there." You just need an LT circuit: http://www.minidsp.com/applications/advanced-tools/linkwitz-transform That's basically what Mark does with the DSP in the SubM's.

You certainly have enough headroom to make an LT circuit possible:


----------



## audioguy

Craig; I have headroom galore. I watched the drivers during some bass scenes and they don't move much. Certainly nothing like the post you provided.

Here was my plan. OmniMic has the ability to create the filters for the miniDSP. You supply OmniMic a target curve and start running frequency sweeps and it keeps iterating the various paramteres until it gets to where you want it to go. (sometimes you tell it to start over from a specific point. But eventually it gets there). 

You can save those EQ parameters (biquads) and send them to the miniDSP app and then upload them. In theory, it would seem to get me to the same place that the Linkwitz Transform app would take me but then again, maybe it won't. I would appreciate some understanding if your recommend approach works better than what I was planning on doing!!

I actually already ran this but when I loaded it to the miniDSP I must have done something wrong as I got terrible noise out of my subs. 

I will have some time on Thursday hopefully to try this again.

And not a complete surprise but the comparison of the current sub response to the SubMersive (red) response (below) with the SubMersive PGM button out, is exactly what you would expect. Even the SubMersives, however show a slow rolloff south of 20+HZ. My plan is to end up with a flat response down to at least 10HZ and maybe maybe 7HZ depending on how much headroom is left. This is not the latest plot of the HSST's but close enough for these purposes. The latest is a tad smoother - but probably not audibly!!


----------



## audioguy

After much diddling with the miniDSP and some different approaches to setting the various filters, I think I have extracted the best out of these monsters.

(Final?) comments: (1) 4 of these guys have at least the output ability of the 4 SubMersives and probably more. Since I run neither anywhere near their limit, I don't and will never know so the addition of more HST18's won't be necessary. (2) The ability to activate the room favors the HST's over the SubMersives and is quite effective in creating a cohesive environment for movie watching. (3) I have the flattest frequency response I have ever had with subwoofers. I am only down about 5db at 5HZ and close to ruler flat from 10HZ to 100HZ. (4). Audyssey Prodid a MUCH better job thand did regular Audyssye. Much better!!! (5) The low end has more "weight" in these subs ithan did the SubMersives (6) the upper portion of the frequency response of these subs (approximately 50HZ to 100HZ) is not quite as "impactful" as the SubMersives.

Price/cost notwithstanding, like most things in audio, it's all about preference. Some will prefer the overall sound/presentation of these subs and some will prefer the SubMersives. Two final comments: Reconfirming what I already knew, Mark Seaton designs and delivers one heck of a subwoofer. AND if you are so inclined, one can get amazkng subwoofer ability going DIY. That said, just sticking a great driver in a well designed box and expecting top notch performance won't happen. Proper integration, and the right kind of EQ is mandatory to approach even close to top notch performance.


----------



## audiostate

Awesome HT! Those Plats really have a commanding presence in the room...WOW!


----------



## audioguy

audiostate said:


> Awesome HT! Those Plats really have a commanding presence in the room...WOW!


Thank you. The Plats are phenominal speakers and I thank CraigJohn for bringing them to my attention!!


----------



## thxave

audioguy said:


> Thank you. The Plats are phenominal speakers and I thank CraigJohn for bringing them to my attention!!


Very nice and clean. Great work.


----------



## audioguy

thxave said:


> Very nice and clean. Great work.



Thank you. I appreciate the kind words.


----------



## audioguy

*Update:*

F I N A L L Y got rid of almost all of the hum/buzz in my system. The Marantz 7702 is the base culprit but I had reduced the annoyance factor substantially by using 10db XLR attenuator plugs on all of my outputs. It was still there but I had to put my ear very close to the speakers to hear it. So I could at least live with it. While I still find that kind of issue unacceptable in modern audio electronics, there was nothing I could do about it as I was not the only one who had to deal with this issue. In fact, I was provided a new second 7702 and it behaved exactly like the first.

When I replaced my Seaton subs with DIY subs and two Peavey amps, the hum/buzz returned with a vengeance. I had tried every trick I knew and some that others offered me (like disabling the ground pin on the XLR cables that went to the Peaveys and miniDSP. Each thing I did made some minuscule difference but it simply would not go away.

Yesterday, an audio friend came by and we started a methodical process to find and eliminate the problem. When the sub amps were off, no issue. So we turned on each sub individually and located the culprit. Solution: plugged that amp into a different (20 amp) outlet. I have 4 20 amp outlets all next to each other and when I first installed the amps, just randomly picked two. Don't ask me why moving it worked but it did.

*Next up wish list: *

(1) A new pre-pro. I want the capability, sonics, and room correction abilities (Dirac) of the Datasat RS20i, but at about 1/3rd the price. And short of the semi-announced Emotiva piece that looks perfect on paper, I see nothing on the horizon. Having had the RS20i in my room, I can not seem to get that sound out of my head. And based upon the (blind) tests we did, 99% of that sound was due to Dirac and not the hardware. So come on Emotive and surprise me and every other audiophile who is familiar with your history on prepros!!!

I finally have the new DIY subs dialed in so they are almost up to the strengths of the SubMersive (range above 50hz) and far superior in the range below it. Happy camper. 

(2) I will be adding some trim around the bottom of the soffits so that I can hide some LED lighting.

(3) Place black velvet on the ceiling, side walls and maybe floor for about 5 to 8 feet in front of the screen wall to further improve dynamic range/black levels

(4) Figure out how to add a video server capability to my music server for a few of my favorite Blurays.

Other than a new prepro, most of this stuff is relatively low cost!


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> *Update:*
> 
> F I N A L L Y got rid of almost all of the hum/buzz in my system. The Marantz 7702 is the base culprit but I had reduced the annoyance factor substantially by using 10db XLR attenuator plugs on all of my outputs. It was still there but I had to put my ear very close to the speakers to hear it. So I could at least live with it. While I still find that kind of issue unacceptable in modern audio electronics, there was nothing I could do about it as I was not the only one who had to deal with this issue. In fact, I was provided a new second 7702 and it behaved exactly like the first.
> 
> When I replaced my Seaton subs with DIY subs and two Peavey amps, the hum/buzz returned with a vengeance. I had tried every trick I knew and some that others offered me (like disabling the ground pin on the XLR cables that went to the Peaveys and miniDSP. Each thing I did made some minuscule difference but it simply would not go away.
> 
> Yesterday, an audio friend came by and we started a methodical process to find and eliminate the problem. When the sub amps were off, no issue. So we turned on each sub individually and located the culprit. Solution: plugged that amp into a different (20 amp) outlet. I have 4 20 amp outlets all next to each other and when I first installed the amps, just randomly picked two. Don't ask me why moving it worked but it did.
> 
> *Next up wish list: *
> 
> (1) A new pre-pro. I want the capability, sonics, and room correction abilities (Dirac) of the Datasat RS20i, but at about 1/3rd the price. And short of the semi-announced Emotiva piece that looks perfect on paper, I see nothing on the horizon. Having had the RS20i in my room, I can not seem to get that sound out of my head. And based upon the (blind) tests we did, 99% of that sound was due to Dirac and not the hardware. So come on Emotive and surprise me and every other audiophile who is familiar with your history on prepros!!!
> 
> I finally have the new DIY subs dialed in so they are almost up to the strengths of the SubMersive (range above 50hz) and far superior in the range below it. Happy camper.
> 
> (2) I will be adding some trim around the bottom of the soffits so that I can hide some LED lighting.
> 
> (3) Place black velvet on the ceiling, side walls and maybe floor for about 5 to 8 feet in front of the screen wall to further improve dynamic range/black levels
> 
> (4) Figure out how to add a video server capability to my music server for a few of my favorite Blurays.
> 
> Other than a new prepro, most of this stuff is relatively low cost!



I can help you out with #4 !


----------



## Mark Seaton

audioguy said:


> *Update:*
> Yesterday, an audio friend came by and we started a methodical process to find and eliminate the problem. When the sub amps were off, no issue. So we turned on each sub individually and located the culprit. Solution: plugged that amp into a different (20 amp) outlet. I have 4 20 amp outlets all next to each other and when I first installed the amps, just randomly picked two. Don't ask me why moving it worked but it did.


Most likely the swapping moved specific components to the same phase of the home's power, or had to do with some possible sharing of a neutral connected to one of the outlets or circuits being used with some noisy device. I've also found cases of a cable or satellite system to have connected devices with dirty power supplies that can pollute the system in surprising ways.


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> I can help you out with #4 !


How do we move forward particulaly given my dislke for and lack of knowledge on Windows and PC's?


----------



## wse

audioguy said:


> We moved from another home and brought with us our theater equipment less the screen, masking system and room treatment.
> 
> The current room dimensions are 22 x 19.3 x 7'11". The room was originally a loft but we basically built an entire new room: double dry wall; Green Glue, carpet underlay to reduce sound from creeping into other parts of the house, new doors and door seals and thresholds, sealed all electrical outlets. The room was originally 27 feet long but took off 5 feet to get better acoustic dimensions and to have a place for my equipment and media storage. Also, we needed space for the center channel which is behind the AT screen


Very nice set-up


----------



## audioguy

wse said:


> Very nice set-up


Thank you.


----------



## audioguy

I have officially given up on Audyssey and Audyssey Pro. I have been a long time very satisfied user on multiple platforms and I consider this one of the breakthrough audio product of the last 10 years or so. While never perfect, it has served me well. But no longer.

While it's inability to get distances correct with multiple sub installations is well known but fixable, there are some issues that simply are not. Most specifically is that it can not seem to get the correction of my LCR's on target (Triad Platinums) and only did a marginally (but still unacceptable) better job on my Seaton Catalysts. Both of these speakers advertise (and demonstrate) usable output into the 60HZ or 70HZ range. But after Audyssey does it's thing, I am forced to have a crossover of at least 120HZ to get anything that resembles an appropriate splice between the mains and subs.

For grins yesterday, I ran an Audyssey Pro setup but never moved the mic. It got a very nice correction of the mains - in fact, perfect and the best I have ever had. But if I move the mic to the typical recommended and always used positions, it messes up. As an FYI, I use the MLP and then to the right and left of the MLP by about 18 inches, to the rear of the MLP by about 18 inches (2 measurements) and in front of the MLP by about 18 inches (3 measurements). 

In the top chart below, it compares the uncorrected left front speaker to corrected by Dirac. A very reasonable correction. The middle chart shows uncorrected vs Audyssey corrected and the last shows Audyssey vs Dirac. As you can see, Audyssey clearly messes up the response and forces the response curve down starting at the mid 100's. Ignore the response above 10K as I used different target curves for Ausyssey and Dirac. The Dirac I used for this comparison runs on my server but I previously had on loan the Datasat RS20i with Dirac and it provided the same kind of results.



It also messes up the center channel that sits behind a screen. Fortunately I don't have to cross over as high but the Audyssey corrected response still makes no sense.

Sooooooo frustrating. Later today, I am going to try one last thing and that is to make a much tighter set of measurements to see if I get any temporary improvement. But I am done and will have a new solution in place, hopefully by the first of February, if not sooner - and it sure won't be Audyssey based!!

Stay tuned. Or not!!!

Audyssey has clearly given up on this segment of their market as they have made no actual product improvements in probably 5 or 6 years other than adding some other products that support Audyssey. I have no clue why but .................


----------



## MIkeDuke

Just Checking in again Chuck. Those DIY subs look very nice and those charts look great as well. Having experienced Craig's system, I know that this system is what we in the audio world like to call "Reference +". Video and audio that just make mere mortals drool. Congrats on making an outstanding theater(Mike now sulks back to his 5.1 room with a 55" TV ). I have never heard a system wit Dirac so I can't comment. I know that my new Marantz 7702MKII that I having installed has Audyssey and pro on it. For me, it seems to do the job. 

I can also add that having a media server is really cool. It looks like you have one or are planning for one. Mine works well for me but it can't do 4k. I am not upset though since there is no media yet. If need be, I will just get a 4k BR player and be selective in my 4k viewing. I don't know what else you have to do, unless it's trying a new preamp someday, but other wise, it looks like you are done.


----------



## audioguy

MIkeDuke said:


> Just Checking in again Chuck. Those DIY subs look very nice and those charts look great as well. Having experienced Craig's system, I know that this system is what we in the audio world like to call "Reference +". Video and audio that just make mere mortals drool. Congrats on making an outstanding theater(Mike now sulks back to his 5.1 room with a 55" TV ). I have never heard a system wit Dirac so I can't comment. I know that my new Marantz 7702MKII that I having installed has Audyssey and pro on it. For me, it seems to do the job.
> 
> I can also add that having a media server is really cool. It looks like you have one or are planning for one. Mine works well for me but it can't do 4k. I am not upset though since there is no media yet. If need be, I will just get a 4k BR player and be selective in my 4k viewing. I don't know what else you have to do, unless it's trying a new preamp someday, but other wise, it looks like you are done.


Thanks for checking in Mike. First of all, one is never "done" in the world of audio/video. We say we are but that's what all addicts do. My "condemnation" of Audyssey may be too severe. I have a friend who has an incredible HT and uses Audyssey Pro on a Denon 5200 and gets great results. I'm sure that if Craig installs your new Marantz SSP, you will get great results as well. And there is certainly nothing shabby about a 55inch flat screen. In my experience, the audio is more important than the video when watching a movie - at least for me. 

I do have a music server but I am not smart enough to turn it into a movie server and the guy I bought it from does not seem inclined to want to delve into that area. That adds mostly to the "cool factor" as, unlike music, I put in a movie and 2 hours later get up and take the movie out of the player. 

After the SSP upgrade, my guess would be a 4K player once there is 4K material. But given my Sony PJ does not have the appropriate UHD capability, I'm not sure if I will be able to participate in that arena.

I did get a really really HUGE video upgrade about 4 weeks ago. And I mean HUGE. I had cataract surgery in my only good eye. I bought the Sony 600ES about 18 months ago or so and thought it was a great PJ but only after I had the surgery did I realize how great. Even my 9 year old 50 inch Plasma 720P TV in the family room looks spectacular now.


----------



## MIkeDuke

One of the "video" upgrades I did was getting glasses . I like the movie server for the convince of course. Having over 300 films, not to mention TV shows with a lot of seasons makes it so much easier then changing disks. The TV shows are a big reason I bought the server. In my room, the 55in does fit the room and looks great. Once I get the Marantz installed, I think Craig will come over and dial it in even more. 

I know one is never "done". But there has to be a point where we move into the slow lane. I am probably moving into that lane. The only things I can see myself doing is going 4k with a player and hopefully at some point with a server. 

I can imagine having to maybe upgrade from the 600 can be a daunting task. Never the less, I am sure as it is you system kicks major butt.


----------



## audioguy

MIkeDuke said:


> I can imagine having to maybe upgrade from the 600 can be a daunting task. Never the less, I am sure as it is you system kicks major butt.


Upgrading from the 600ES will probably never happen. I am retired (2 years ago)but set aside away some money when I sold my company to be able to do the "final" serious upgrades to my theater. That, so far, has included the 7 Triad speakers (Craig's fault), new amps (also Craig's fault since my previous speakers were powered), new Sony PJ and a bunch of miscellaneous stuff. If I should go the Datasat route, which is what I am actively considering, the serious money is gone. I posted once previously that I was "done" except for the new SSP and that is still my story - and for now I am sticking to it!!!

Some of the ways to control this addiction is to never read AVS, or attend a show like CEDIA or enter a high end Home Theater store. I posted once previously that that last time I attended CEDIA, it cost me $15,600. $600 to attend the show and another $15,000 for what I purchased as a result of the show. The PJ I purchased due to a visit to Atlanta Home Theater and saw the Sony 1100ES. The Triad speakers because Craig mentioned them to me and then I visited him early this year. So to save money, never leave the house.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Is the 600 really 4K? It looks like that it is. If so then I say yes, you should stay with that since there is really no where else to go. Now the Datasat would also be nice. Are you sticking with one format(Atmos) or are you trying to incorporate DTS:X and Auro as well. You have enough speakers for a really nice immersive system.

I am curious about the Datasat. It looks like a real pro preamp. You need to get adapters to attach amps right? It looks like it uses those DB25 connections. And on it's own, does it do all three formats or does it just do Auro and Atmos, DTS:X will be upgrades. Either way it will be a great system.


----------



## audioguy

MIkeDuke said:


> Is the 600 really 4K? It looks like that it is. If so then I say yes, you should stay with that since there is really no where else to go. Now the Datasat would also be nice. Are you sticking with one format(Atmos) or are you trying to incorporate DTS:X and Auro as well. You have enough speakers for a really nice immersive system.
> 
> I am curious about the Datasat. It looks like a real pro preamp. You need to get adapters to attach amps right? It looks like it uses those DB25 connections. And on it's own, does it do all three formats or does it just do Auro and Atmos, DTS:X will be upgrades. Either way it will be a great system.


The 600 is true 4K but does not conform to the new UHD standard (improved color depth, etc). So I don't know what that means if the new 4K video releases conform to that standard and my PJ does not support it??? 

The Datasat has options. But it can include Atmos, Auro, and the ability to add DTS-X if it ever gets released. The adapters come with it so it really has 16 XLR (balanced) connectors on it. 

I currently have an Atmos ceiling speaker configuration. My room really is not so long that it needs more ceiling speaker; if I ever chose to add a 2nd row of seating (that is about as likely as me selling my speakers and installing a set of Bose 901's all around), but if I did so, I could add another set of side surrounds. The only speaker upgrade I could imagine would be to change out my ceiling speakers to some in-ceiling Triad speakers that truly conformed to the Atmos standards OR, add Wides. Neither of those is very likely either. But then again, neither were some of the other upgrades.


----------



## MIkeDuke

audioguy said:


> The 600 is true 4K but does not conform to the new UHD standard (improved color depth, etc). So I don't know what that means if the new 4K video releases conform to that standard and my PJ does not support it???
> 
> The Datasat has options. But it can include Atmos, Auro, and the ability to add DTS-X if it ever gets released. The adapters come with it so it really has 16 XLR (balanced) connectors on it.
> 
> I currently have an Atmos ceiling speaker configuration. My room really is not so long that it needs more ceiling speaker; if I ever chose to add a 2nd row of seating (that is about as likely as me selling my speakers and installing a set of Bose 901's all around), but if I did so, I could add another set of side surrounds. The only speaker upgrade I could imagine would be to change out my ceiling speakers to some in-ceiling Triad speakers that truly conformed to the Atmos standards OR, add Wides. Neither of those is very likely either. But then again, neither were some of the other upgrades.


So things like Wide Color Gamut, etc... may be beyond your reach. Your projector can probably do 4k but it may not be able to EVERY little thing 4k has to offer. I am sure your picture looks insane as it is. That's cool that the Datasat can possibly do all three formats. I got you on your other upgrades as well. Since my room is so small, I really can't add any more speakers. Craig and I have discussed it and he feels that it would be a lot of work and the pay off may not be worth it. So I am probably done speaker wise. My next move would be to wait for 4k BR players and media to come out and maybe just upgrade that. Good luck on getting the Datasat.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


>


Chuck,

It looks to me like Audyssey is seeing the downturn in the response that starts about 140 Hz and is inappropriately using that as the F3. Can you take measurements at all 8 of your mic positions and see if that dip is consistent at all 8 positions? Did you use the same 8 mic positions for Dirac? 

Since you got a near-perfect result with a single mic position, can I suggest you try a closer mic grouping around the PLP? I use a mic grouping that is clustered no further than 12" around the PLP, with several positions within 4" to 6" of the 1st position. I find it gives Audyssey more consistent responses, which allows Audyssey to focus on the main problems at the PLP. It's probably not as good at other listening positions, but I don't really care too much about those... I don't sit there! (Unless, of course, I have some distinguished visitor, and then I give up the PLP to him.)  

One last question... how does the 120 Hz crossover sound? I don't remember any subwoofer localization issues when I visited, likely due to your distributed subwoofer system. That should be the only SQ issue with a higher crossover. (BTW, I use a 120 Hz crossover on all my speakers, not because of any speaker/subwoofer integration issues, but because I get more system headroom by passing off the heavy lifting to the subs.) 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Chuck,
> 
> It looks to me like Audyssey is seeing the downturn in the response that starts about 140 Hz and is inappropriately using that as the F3. Can you take measurements at all 8 of your mic positions and see if that dip is consistent at all 8 positions? Did you use the same 8 mic positions for Dirac?
> 
> Since you got a near-perfect result with a single mic position, can I suggest you try a closer mic grouping around the PLP? I use a mic grouping that is clustered no further than 12" around the PLP, with several positions within 4" to 6" of the 1st position. I find it gives Audyssey more consistent responses, which allows Audyssey to focus on the main problems at the PLP. It's probably not as good at other listening positions, but I don't really care too much about those... I don't sit there! (Unless, of course, I have some distinguished visitor, and then I give up the PLP to him.)
> 
> One last question... how does the 120 Hz crossover sound? I don't remember any subwoofer localization issues when I visited, likely due to your distributed subwoofer system. That should be the only SQ issue with a higher crossover. (BTW, I use a 120 Hz crossover on all my speakers, not because of any speaker/subwoofer integration issues, but because I get more system headroom by passing off the heavy lifting to the subs.)
> 
> Craig


Great minds think alike. Given the incredible results I got from not moving the mic at all, last night I did a new set of measurements while moving the mic no more than about 12 inches and got much better results (still not as good as Dirac). I can now choose to use a lower crossover and get a better blend between the subs and mains.

And yes, the measurement locations between Dirac and Audyssey were very close except Dirac requires 9 positions and I use 8 for Audyssey. When I had the Datasat in my home, it had no issues getting a reasonable looking corrected response for all of my speakers and I was not restricted to keeping the mic quite as close to the MLP. And just as importantly, Dirac did a much better job on the splice between subs and mains. 

The issue I had with a 120HZ crossover is much more with music than movies. It was not a sub-localization issue. In fact with movies, it has a lot of upside. But there were occasions where some vocals (and instruments) had a much "chestier" feel than was appropriate. A couple of possible reasons for this: (1) my subs are not SubMersives and (2) the FR of the subs starts dying prior to 120HZ.

I am going go be diddling some later today on playing with the crossivers and sub distances to see if I can tighten things up a bit.

After I did all of this, I watched Age of Ultron and thought I completely hosed my system. Dynamics were crushed, volume need to be pumped up a bunch, etc. Turns out, after doing some googling on the subject, it was the recording of the audio on the Blu Ray!!

Thanks for your input. Any signficant audio/video purchases either in the past or your near term future?


----------



## Mark Seaton

Hi Chuck,

Interesting findings with the Audyssey LF speaker correction. Am I correct to assume this was done with the Audyssey Pro Kit? If so, did you make sure to set the crossover frequencies lower in the window that says "recommended crossover frequencies" or whatever the exact term is? For each speaker the drop down offers crossover frequency settings in a ranked priority. I wonder if this setting dictates the low end correction window? If you saved the measurements, you can back out and run it with a very high setting for the LCR vs a much lower setting. I would then go into the menu after loading the new correction and set the crossover for the LCR to ~40Hz or even large to see what Audyssey did to the low end separate from the high pass filter.

FYI, I'm now a dealer for the MiniDSP products with a fewDDRC-88a's and a small pile of the UMIK-1's on hand. In late January I'll be using a pair of '88a's to calibrate an Atmos system with just the 4 height speakers on the 2nd unit. The key and hurdle is they must be calibrated separately, so I'll end up having to best match the mic locations for the 2nd round of measurements for the height channels. Once done I'll then have to line up the impulses using the distance settings in the preamp (Marantz 8802a) to get the actual arrival times to match. I'll have a full report by Feb 1st.


----------



## audioguy

Mark Seaton said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> Interesting findings with the Audyssey LF speaker correction. Am I correct to assume this was done with the Audyssey Pro Kit?


Correct



> If so, did you make sure to set the crossover frequencies lower in the window that says "recommended crossover frequencies" or whatever the exact term is? For each speaker the drop down offers crossover frequency settings in a ranked priority. I wonder if this setting dictates the low end correction window?


I did just that. I selected the lowest provided frequency hoping that this would address the problem. It did not!!



> If you saved the measurements, you can back out and run it with a very high setting for the LCR vs a much lower setting. I would then go into the menu after loading the new correction and set the crossover for the LCR to ~40Hz or even large to see what Audyssey did to the low end separate from the high pass filter.


It won't let you change (if I recall correctly) from small to large. 



> FYI, I'm now a dealer for the MiniDSP products with a fewDDRC-88a's and a small pile of the UMIK-1's on hand. In late January I'll be using a pair of '88a's to calibrate an Atmos system with just the 4 height speakers on the 2nd unit. The key and hurdle is they must be calibrated separately, so I'll end up having to best match the mic locations for the 2nd round of measurements for the height channels. Once done I'll then have to line up the impulses using the distance settings in the preamp (Marantz 8802a) to get the actual arrival times to match. I'll have a full report by Feb 1st.


Aligning the distance settings is one issue and then figuring out how to control the two volume controls and keep them in sync is another. A guy on the AVS forum has a Datasat LS10 and he has already done what you are discussing doing. He may be able to provide some insight and assistance. 

Reducing the distance between measurements solved my delima for now. My issue is that since I now have a fair amount of experience setting up the Datasat RS20i and understand how much flexibility it has, it is hard to not keep thinking about it as the real solution. For example, on the output preset side, you can use up to 6 PEQ's on any of the channels to make adjustments prior to Dirac doing it's thing. For example, in my uncorrected FR noted above on the left channel, you can see there are a couple narrow peaks of excess room energy on both sides of 100HZ. While Dirac certainly reduces them (probably to the extent of inaudibility), it does not eliminate them. Using two high Q PEQ's can tame them prior to correction and get a much smoother response. That may or may not be a great example as I don't know if or how much doing that would change the actual sonics but it might and by experimentation, I could learn if it actually did. And for a retired, addicted, OCD audiophile looking to extract the very best out of his system, audio Nirvana. Now only if I had not sold my 4 SubMersives  

By the way, how do you plan to get an impulse signal to the ceiling speakers as neither REW nor OmniMic have the ability to test more than 6 or 8 channels. I know you don't use either of those but I'm curious as I like to check both Audyssey's and Diracs distance measurements and can't do the height speakers.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Audyssey has clearly given up on this segment of their market as they have made no actual product improvements in probably 5 or 6 years other than adding some other products that support Audyssey. I have no clue why but .................


Just FYI... Chis K stated in a Facebook post last May:



> I can say that we are working on something very cool for 2016 release. It will make hard core Audyssey fans happy. And, no, we are not leaving the room correction business.


Just sayin'... 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Quote from Audyssey: I can say that we are working on something very cool for 2016 release. It will make hard core Audyssey fans happy. And, no, we are not leaving the room correction business.
> Craig


I wonder if they have decided to get in the "high end" hardware business and compete against some of their existing re-sellers (e.g. Denon and Marantz) as well as the folks like Emotiva, Datasat, et al. In addition, they certainly need to do some work on the software.

Since 2016 is just around the corner my guess would be CES, but we shall see.


----------



## Mark Seaton

audioguy said:


> Correct
> I did just that. I selected the lowest provided frequency hoping that this would address the problem. It did not!!


That's disappointing and what I'd call a border-line software glitch if I didn't think it was somewhat intentional. In that case I'll just call it a bad choice that it can't be over-ridden.

After recently calibrating a nice system great/game-room type system with 3 Catalyst 8Cs and SubMersive with Audyssey Pro, it only re-iterated why I'm such a fan of Dirac. I kept saying to myself "I would have been done 1-2 hours ago!"  With that saved time from the speed by which I can adjust and listen to minor changes, the result can be much closer to my ideal as you are able to make many more fine adjustments and direct comparisons. Dirac isn't without a few quirks or need for a few more direct adjustments, but the added flexibility is a huge benefit.



> Aligning the distance settings is one issue and then figuring out how to control the two volume controls and keep them in sync is another. A guy on the AVS forum has a Datasat LS10 and he has already done what you are discussing doing. He may be able to provide some insight and assistance.


If you have an Atmos preamp there is no issue with volume control being the 88a will just function as a conventional EQ with the upstream surround preamp handling all source switching, decoding, bass management, and volume control. The only adjustments needed are effective delay and to verify the relative level of the 2 calibrations is lined up.

A local and long time friend is now a DataSat dealer and had a demo of the new LS10 with Dirac included. I see mention of it here in the LS10 thread here as well. While hardly in the "affordable" range, it's an important step in the non-astronomical direction, and I believe Arcam and AudioControl both have Dirac capable Atmos processors soon to be released.



> Reducing the distance between measurements solved my delima for now. My issue is that since I now have a fair amount of experience setting up the Datasat RS20i and understand how much flexibility it has, it is hard to not keep thinking about it as the real solution. For example, on the output preset side, you can use up to 6 PEQ's on any of the channels to make adjustments prior to Dirac doing it's thing. For example, in my uncorrected FR noted above on the left channel, you can see there are a couple narrow peaks of excess room energy on both sides of 100HZ. While Dirac certainly reduces them (probably to the extent of inaudibility), it does not eliminate them. Using two high Q PEQ's can tame them prior to correction and get a much smoother response. That may or may not be a great example as I don't know if or how much doing that would change the actual sonics but it might and by experimentation, I could learn if it actually did. And for a retired, addicted, OCD audiophile looking to extract the very best out of his system, audio Nirvana. Now only if I had not sold my 4 SubMersives


I haven't checked nor even asked, but were you able to confirm if the RS20's internal PEQ was in the loop when Dirac runs its measurements? It's certainly possible with their hardware, but pleasantly surprising if it was actually enabled that way.



> By the way, how do you plan to get an impulse signal to the ceiling speakers as neither REW nor OmniMic have the ability to test more than 6 or 8 channels. I know you don't use either of those but I'm curious as I like to check both Audyssey's and Diracs distance measurements and can't do the height speakers.


With the external boxes I can always just pipe an analog signal right into the 88a's input channel, measure the offset between the two and enter that value into the preamp. Of course I guess if you had an Audyssey preamp you could just run a single postion Audyssey cal to get the distances and levels initially set and then turn off Audyssey. Not simple, but all possible options.


----------



## Mark Seaton

craig john said:


> Just FYI... Chis K stated in a Facebook post last May:
> 
> 
> 
> I can say that we are working on something very cool for 2016 release. It will make hard core Audyssey fans happy. And, no, we are not leaving the room correction business.
> 
> 
> 
> Just sayin'...
> 
> Craig
Click to expand...




audioguy said:


> I wonder if they have decided to get in the "high end" hardware business and compete against some of their existing re-sellers (e.g. Denon and Marantz) as well as the folks like Emotiva, Datasat, et al. In addition, they certainly need to do some work on the software.
> 
> Since 2016 is just around the corner my guess would be CES, but we shall see.


That is a promising hint. To me that suggests they may be finally adding more flexibility and/or higher resolution DSP (ie >24-bit/48kHz), but that's just a guess. They could also be doing similar in external hardware as you suggest.


----------



## audioguy

Mark Seaton said:


> That is a promising hint. To me that suggests they may be finally adding more flexibility and/or higher resolution DSP (ie >24-bit/48kHz), but that's just a guess. They could also be doing similar in external hardware as you suggest.


But unless they deal with the many "pecularities" [such as mine] it is still Audyssey, even if it supports 24/192.

Your dealer had Dirac integrated into the LS10?? Interesting.


----------



## Mark Seaton

audioguy said:


> But unless they deal with the many "pecularities" [such as mine] it is still Audyssey, even if it supports 24/192.


I was including/covering such "peculiarities" in the more flexibility. The lack of user input and direction is what handcuffs the very useful Audyssey correction technology. They are plenty effective at smoothing the response. From what I see it's just a few belt & suspenders protections for the general population that result in oddities and misbehavior like you documented above. I would hope that if adding flexibility they would also get the software written to allow manufacturers willing to install more DSP horsepower to operate at a higher sampling rate.



> Your dealer had Dirac integrated into the LS10?? Interesting.


I believe it was a rep's demo unit on loan for his storefront's opening night. I didn't verify first hand, but was told it had an early version of it for testing.


----------



## craig john

Mark Seaton said:


> That is a promising hint. To me that suggests they may be finally adding more flexibility and/or higher resolution DSP (ie >24-bit/48kHz), but that's just a guess. They could also be doing similar in external hardware as you suggest.


I'm hoping they add some of the functionality that Dirac has, in particular the adjustable target cures, and the ability to store more than one EQ/target. In addition, I would like to see the ability to "ping" the subwoofer simultaneously with at least one other speaker, (probably the CC), to evaluate the splice and optimize the crossover selection and subwoofer distance. Finally, I would like to see some capability to display measurements, ala Dirac, so the user can evaluate the subwoofer position and change it, if necessary. 

If they put all this into the Pro Kit, it should be easily doable with the PC interface.


----------



## Mark Seaton

craig john said:


> I'm hoping they add some of the functionality that Dirac has, in particular the adjustable target cures, and the ability to store more than one EQ/target. In addition, I would like to see the ability to "ping" the subwoofer simultaneously with at least one other speaker, (probably the CC), to evaluate the splice and optimize the crossover selection and subwoofer distance. Finally, I would like to see some capability to display measurements, ala Dirac, so the user can evaluate the subwoofer position and change it, if necessary.
> 
> If they put all this into the Pro Kit, it should be easily doable with the PC interface.


I fully agree. Multiple targets curves to compare would make the painfully slow upload time bearable, and more flexible target curve adjustment range would be welcome. One of the biggest missing links on all of the systems is the ability to measure the LF response of a subwoofer or speaker. ARC added their quick-measure feature. I'd love to see the ability to take, save, display, and overlay 2-8 measurements at a time.


----------



## audioguy

Mark Seaton said:


> One of the biggest missing links on all of the systems is the ability to measure the LF response of a subwoofer or speaker. ARC added their quick-measure feature. I'd love to see the ability to take, save, display, and overlay 2-8 measurements at a time.


Sounds like they would need to integrate something like REW which can do all of those things

Would not the ability to store more than one set of filters also require some hardware capability that may or may not be present?
@Mark Seaton: The Datasat LS10 will not have the ability to store multiple sets of filters either! The RS20i does and it is quite useful. For example: one for music and another for movies; one for the sweet spot and one for the entire row or room. You catch my drift. I don't know if the hardware itself is capable but given the MSRP of the LS10 will be about 1/2 the price of an RS20i, it needs to have A LOT less capability. The fact that it will ONLY support 15 channels is not much of a restriction on the vast majority of users. 

Interesting times. 

I have attached 2 additional plot comparisons. One I left the mic in the MLP (bottom plot) and the other (top plot) is what I am now using and moved the mic less than 1 foot.


----------



## craig john

That black trace looks like it should work quite well with an 80 Hz crossover. What does the CC and the Right Front look like?


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> That black trace looks like it should work quite well with an 80 Hz crossover. What does the CC and the Right Front look like?


Have not looked at the right or center but I would be surprised if they are not fine as well. I am using 100HZ though 80HZ looked fine.

I am trying to get REW to work on my Mac. The Mac sees the mic but REW does not. I will hopefully get a chance to work on it in the next few days. There are a couple of features that OmniMic does not have the REW does. Test signals to 8 speakers instead of 6. Internal test signals. And some plots that are easier to understand. I already had the minDSP mic so I thought I would give it a try.


----------



## audioguy

I have decided to make some modifications to my LFE abilities. As a result, I am going to sell one of my Peavey IPR 7500 amps [non DSP model] and two of the sealed HST18's I built.

So if you are interested in the cost saving of DIY but don't have the inclination, time, space or tools to do so, this would be the ideal solution.

My subs are wired at 4ohms, so with the Peavey amps, you get a nice 2000 watts per sub. The subs are painted (3 to 4 coats) with the black "truck bed" finish. 

I have no way to ship these (130+ pounds each) so we will have to meet in a neutral location (I am about 80 mile from Atlanta). I do not have the original shipping boxes for the amp.

Price for two completed subs and amp is $2300. This is about what have in them, labor excluded.

PM me if interested.


----------



## Roger Dressler

I am vicariously basking in the afterglow of this build.  Very inspiring on so many levels (acoustics, sub build, PJ...) --- taking copious notes to aid in my new theater project starting in a couple months. Glad you re-sorted out the Marantz buzz, but now it's really sorted as it's gone. That was my solution, too. 

This comment caught my eye:


audioguy said:


> I finally have the new DIY subs dialed in so they are almost up to the strengths of the SubMersive (range above 50hz) and far superior in the range below it. Happy camper.


I recalled the plot you posted:










I ran into a similar thing where my front and rear subs nicely covered the whole bass range operating together, but individually 

While the final composite response is amazingly flat, each was lumpy dippy peaky. What I did was address the peaks in each sub feed individually, then made looked at the total and made "global" adjustments to get the target curve I wanted. In your case I suspect all the EQ is global, so the 50 and 75 Hz peaks in the front subs partially remains beneath the surface. I wonder if there's subtle remnants that the ear can detect, perhaps revealed in a decay plot? 

Anyway, if you feel like tinkering, use some PEQ to kill the peaks in each set of subs, then perform an overall pass. 

And while I'm here "shoulding" all over the place, have you tried dialing in a target curve such as the one Harman has shown? (The black line, not the red ) It really helps remove any sense of muddiness in the midbass for music.


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> I am vicariously basking in the afterglow of this build.  Very inspiring on so many levels (acoustics, sub build, PJ...) --- taking copious notes to aid in my new theater project starting in a couple months. Glad you re-sorted out the Marantz buzz, but now it's really sorted as it's gone. That was my solution, too.
> 
> This comment caught my eye:
> 
> 
> I recalled the plot you posted:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I ran into a similar thing where my front and rear subs nicely covered the whole bass range operating together, but individually
> 
> While the final composite response is amazingly flat, each was lumpy dippy peaky. What I did was address the peaks in each sub feed individually, then made looked at the total and made "global" adjustments to get the target curve I wanted. In your case I suspect all the EQ is global, so the 50 and 75 Hz peaks in the front subs partially remains beneath the surface. I wonder if there's subtle remnants that the ear can detect, perhaps revealed in a decay plot?
> 
> Anyway, if you feel like tinkering, use some PEQ to kill the peaks in each set of subs, then perform an overall pass.
> 
> And while I'm here "shoulding" all over the place, have you tried dialing in a target curve such as the one Harman has shown? (The black line, not the red ) It really helps remove any sense of muddiness in the midbass for music.


I will give it a go on taming some of the individual peaks. I'm not sure about that target curve. That is a serious bass lift [about 10db] below 100HZ. Experimenting like that will be a lot easier once I get the RS20i. A LOT easier. You can change the target curve for one speaker (in this case, the subs) and resend the entire filter set to the RS20i. A few minutes work and then have the ability to compare to other targets.

Your idea of taming those peaks is an interesting one and I will definitely give it a try, Since I did not tame the peaks when I had my SubMersives either, that probably does not explain the differences in the two subs. One of the key elements in the sonic difference is driver efficiency. If you look at the raw HST18 data on Data-Bass and compare that to what Mark Seaton has on his forum for the near-mic data of the SubMersive driver, it is plain that the SubMersive is a good bit more efficient above 40HZ than is the HST18. And I'm sure there are other differences that are way beyond my pay grade to comprehend. 

To the extent we (we most likely = Mark) can extract the best parts of the HST18 subs (the weight and authority below about 50HZ), and the articulation, definition and apparent "speed" of the SubMersive above 50HZ, I will be one step closer to Audio Nirvana (wherever and whatever that is).


----------



## audioguy

Mark Seaton said:


> I haven't checked nor even asked, but were you able to confirm if the RS20's internal PEQ was in the loop when Dirac runs its measurements? It's certainly possible with their hardware, but pleasantly surprising if it was actually enabled that way.


There are PEQ's on both input and output channels. I know that the output PEQ's are in the loop when you run Dirac. It is really helpful in reducing some high energy peaks prior to running Dirac.


----------



## audioguy

I have ordered the Datasat RS20i. What an addiction!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> I have ordered the Datasat RS20i. What an addiction!!!!!!!!!!


Congrats! 

I will have to make a trip down to hear your fabulous room after all these changes.


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> Congrats!
> 
> I will have to make a trip down to hear your fabulous room after all these changes.


Love to have you come back and visit. Once I am satisfied that I have the RS20i running correctly [and my new sub combination operating as it should], I will post my thoughts and then let's plan the visit.

As a reminder, I am about 80 miles east of Atlanta.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Love to have you come back and visit. Once I am satisfied that I have the RS20i running correctly [and my new sub combination operating as it should], I will post my thoughts and then let's plan the visit.
> 
> As a reminder, I am about 80 miles east of Atlanta.


Sitting on the veryyyy edge of my seat.


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> Love to have you come back and visit. Once I am satisfied that I have the RS20i running correctly [and my new sub combination operating as it should], I will post my thoughts and then let's plan the visit.
> 
> As a reminder, I am about 80 miles east of Atlanta.


Looking forward to it.


----------



## gamest

Wish the RS20i was more affordable  Way outside of my price range. Cant wait to see how it goes. 
Man! 4 Seaton HPs. One is more than enough for me....... well I take that back I do want to add another later 

Love the Triads and the room. beautiful layout.


----------



## audioguy

gamest said:


> Wish the RS20i was more affordable  Way outside of my price range. Cant wait to see how it goes.
> Man! 4 Seaton HPs. One is more than enough for me....... well I take that back I do want to add another later
> 
> Love the Triads and the room. beautiful layout.


Thank you for the kind words. My bet is that within a year or less, most of what the RS20i offers will be available at 1/2 price (e.g. Datasat LS10) or less, (Emotiva or miniDSP). Be patient - the price of technology always drops. The first 42 inch flat panel TV was $20,000 and now you can get one for less than $500.00!!!!

And I love your theater - great job!!


----------



## audioguy

My HST18's 










welcomed two new (almost identical) twin brothers to join the family yesterday. Almost identical in that this is a Master/Slave combination. 



I used the miniDSP to do some adjustments, and did NOT rerun Audyssey (just used the previous filter set) and did some listening. I'm not where I want to be but it was pretty awesome that the older children played so nice with the new additions. I will not rerun Audyssey as I am expecting my new SSP in a few weeks (finally). 

I don't know if psychologists have identified primary and secondary addictions, but if they have, audio is my primary addiction with sub woofage running a close second as my secondary addiction. Clean, tight, massive bass just makes watching movies at home so much more enjoyable ---- and sooooooooo much better than 99.9% of any commercial theater I have ever heard.


----------



## carp

Nice!! Ahh I miss the sight of stacked Submersives!! What a GREAT sub the subm is....


----------



## audioguy

carp said:


> Nice!! Ahh I miss the sight of stacked Submersives!! What a GREAT sub the subm is....


I agree.

I have not heard all subs but I have yet to hear any that match the mid bass slam of the SubMersive. My 4 HST18's sure did not even after Mark Seaton shared with me some things to get them closer. I do like them better below 40 to 50HZ than the SubMersives. So while I don't have the two different kinds of subs dialed in properly, it is already clear that the combination of the strength of both should get me where I want to go.


----------



## audioguy

*New Project*

I have been "inspired" by other installs seen on AVS and the work done at the place where I purchase my equipment. I have decided to tackle the job of cleaning up the equipment room [easy job], including the rack of equipment [ not an easy job].

It normally does not look quite this bad as I usually have things a lot more tidy, I have undone all of the zip ties and velcro straps to get ready for the install of a new rack. But it is still a mass of speaker wire, interconnects, power cords, ethernet cables, IR control cables and a few other things.


I have ordered the Middle Atlantic rack, have rack ears for some of my equipment and custom shelves and face plates coming for most everything else [as well as lacing bars to go on the back for making everything a lot more tidy.] Part of the reason I have never tackled this project is that nothing has historically stayed long in the rack. Now, most of the key pieces [SSP, amps, miniDSP, DirecTV, power conditioner, Kaleidescape Alto and Disc Server] are here to stay so that it makes much more sense. I have been told by those who do this for a living [and are as OCD as I am] that it can take upwards of several weeks to get it all cleaned up.

UPDATE: Here is the back of my rack as of today ......... OCD is a good thing. [Three weeks all day everyday!!!]


----------



## audioguy

*Datasat RS20i SSP Install*

I was either fortunate or cursed to have a dealer-borrowed RS20i in my room about 18 months ago - and was never able to get the sound out of my head. We had done a blind comparison of it to my then SSP and the differences were anything but subtle - and that was before I had all of the knowledge on the RS20i that I do now.

I have purchased one and now have it up and running --- and while it can be classified as an obscene amount of money to spend on just one box, it is truly an exceptional audio component. Sounds that were previously obscured are much more audible; all of my speakers have totally disappeared; the sense of envelopment is nothing but incredible; imaging is far more precise; and sounds emminate from a true three dimensional space. Glad I made the purchase. One of this things I have discovered is the amount of audio that goes into the ceiling speakers. The Home screen on the RS20i has an active bar graph that shows this for every speaker. Anyone thinking they can put much lower quality speakers in the ceiling would be making a mistake.

As I do with all of my audio/video changes, I never tell my bride what or when I do anything. It is not about hiding the expense, but rather to see if she ever notices any change. I usually give her 6 moths to a year and then tell her what I changed.

In the last 8 years, of all of the changes I have made, she has noticed two: what she did not notice was a change from a JVC RS2 to a JVC RS55. She did notice the change from the RS55 to the Sony 600ES. She also noticed the change to Atmos. In addition to the change to the RS20i, I have also modified the sub configuration. It will be interesting to find out if she notices any of this. Hoping so - but doubting so !!!

*EDIT as of 08-12-16*: Not a complete surprise but as of today my wife did not notice any of the sonic improvements as a result of the changes though she does know about most of the physical changes that I did (since I told her). What a strange hobby this is. Cosmetic changes not withstanding, it appears that most of our upgrades are for US!!!!!


----------



## Frohlich

Sounds like an awesome upgrade to an already stellar room. Glad you love it!!!

On a side note, I also don't always share all my purchases with my wife. I don't want to burden her with all the details of my obsession and have to keep track of all the changes.....it's for her own good. Not to mention there are plenty of times I see an 87th..88th..etc. pair of shoes show up in our closet unannounced. I am sure she is trying to equally lift the burden of me having to keep track of all her changes.


----------



## audioguy

Frohlich said:


> Sounds like an awesome upgrade to an already stellar room. Glad you love it!!!


Thanks. I do enjoy movies in our home. We now have a new strategy for watching action/adventure movies. I like them louder than her (or most all of our friends we invite), I watch them first, alone, as loud as I like sitting in the sweet spot. 



> On a side note, I also don't always share all my purchases with my wife. I don't want to burden her with all the details of my obsession and have to keep track of all the changes.....it's for her own good. Not to mention there are plenty of times I see an 87th..88th..etc. pair of shoes show up in our closet unannounced. I am sure she is trying to equally lift the burden of me having to keep track of all her changes.


Since I am now retired, I must live within a budget. When I sold my small company, I set aside a tiny amount for future audio/video purchases and I do have an annual (very small) budget for audio/video expenses as well. After the RS20i acquisition, the sub changes, and the up and coming clean up of my equipment room, the funds available for anything large are now totally depleted. But .... I can only see a few changes in my future: a UHD Blu Ray player a year or so from now; a streaming media server of some kind when 4K streaming become more widespread; and potentially a swap out of my Sony 600ES since it is not UHD compatible. Apparently, 4K without UHD is not quite as amazing as 4K WITH UHD. The latter will be a lot more difficult to pull off. My best opportunity to bypass that change will be to NEVER see a 4K UHD image live in a dealer, someone's home or an audio/video show - and quit reading AVS Forum


----------



## madhuski

audioguy said:


> I was either fortunate or cursed to have a dealer-borrowed RS20i in my room about 18 months ago - and was never able to get the sound out of my head. We had done a blind comparison of it to my then SSP and the differences were anything but subtle - and that was before I had all of the knowledge on the RS20i that I do now.
> 
> I have purchased one and now have it up and running --- and while it can be classified as an obscene amount of money to spend on just one box, it is truly an exceptional audio component. Sounds that were previously obscured are much more audible; all of my speakers have totally disappeared; the sense of envelopment is nothing but incredible; imaging is far more precise; and sounds emminate from a true three dimensional space. Glad I made the purchase. One of this things I have discovered is the amount of audio that goes into the ceiling speakers. The Home screen on the RS20i has an active bar graph that shows this for every speaker. Anyone thinking they can put much lower quality speakers in the ceiling would be making a mistake.
> 
> As I do with all of my audio/video changes, I never tell my bride what or when I do anything. It is not about hiding the expense, but rather to see if she ever notices any change. I usually give her 6 moths to a year and then tell her what I changed.
> 
> In the last 8 years, of all of the changes I have made, she has noticed two: what she did not notice was a change from a JVC RS2 to a JVC RS55. She did notice the change from the RS55 to the Sony 600ES. She also noticed the change to Atmos. In addition to the change to the RS20i, I have also modified the sub configuration. It will be interesting to find out if she notices any of this. Hoping so - but doubting so !!!



Ha - yeah: I do the same thing. Don't tell the squaw when I make a change. It serves as a litmus test for me to see wether what I *think* I hear is really going on or not.....


----------



## audioguy

madhuski said:


> Ha - yeah: I do the same thing. Don't tell the squaw when I make a change. It serves as a litmus test for me to see wether what I *think* I hear is really going on or not.....


Very nice room, by the way. LOVE the dog!! So how often does your "squaw" hear the differences?


----------



## madhuski

audioguy said:


> Very nice room, by the way. LOVE the dog!! So how often does your "squaw" hear the differences?


Off the top of my head, three times:

- when I wanted to give xt32 a try, I bought a Onkyo 818. Previously had the Pioneer sc-35 at the time. She did not like the 818 at all. 
- when Selah Audio made me a 3-way center to match my songtowers. She noted that things were much better
- The last few months when I've been on a processor bender (denon 4520, Anthem 710, Anthem d2v3d, krell foundation, emotiva xmc-1, yamaha cx-a5000) she generally didn't say much, _except_ when the Yamaha was in chain she felt compelled to say that things sounded worse


----------



## audioguy

Here are some interesting (to me, at least) charts on the frequency response of the RS20i vs the Marantz 7702.

The corrected frequency response of all of the speakers is much better than expected --- and significantly better than what I was able to previously obtain. I have attached some plots of the left front speaker. The red is with no correction. The blue is what Audyssey Pro did on the Marantz and the black is what the RS20i did (using both Output Preset PEQ’s and Dirac). It is not an exact apples to apples comparison as I measured with Dirac about 3 to 5 inches closer toward the MLP when I did the outside measurements. The black is about as close to a straight line as you might imagine. Also, the roll off of the curve from 10K up is a bit steeper with Audyssey as that was the target curve I used in Audyssey Pro. I will be adding a bit more slope to all non-LFE channel targets.

Also, the Audyssey curve has the dip between 1K and 2K and the Dirac plot does not - but I am going to use that dip for movies but not music.


----------



## craig john

That's pretty impressive Chuck. What does this mean: _"It is not an exact apples to apples comparison as I measured with Dirac about 3 to 5 inches closer toward the MLP when I did the *outside measurements.*"_? 
Where your mic placements similar for Audyssey and Dirac, except of the "outside" measurements? 

The Dirac curve doesn't look like the preset curves I had for Dirac in the 88A that I had. The 88A presets had about a 6 dB downward slope from low to high frequencies. Yours looks pretty flat with just a couple dB of slope. Did you set it that way, or does the RS20I have different presets that the 88A?

Can the Pro Kit be used to set a target curve that doesn't have the steep roll off of the higher frequencies? It looks like Audyssey is starting to roll off at about 5kHz and is down well over 10 dB at 20 kHz. My understanding is that it's not supposed to start the roll off until 10 kHz, and then it's only supposed to be 3 dB at 20 kHz. 

Also, can the Pro Kit be used to eliminate the 2kHz dip? IIRC, my friend Jeff did that... and then immediately put it back in because he didn't like the result with the 2k dip removed. 

Finally, how much different does Dirac SOUND than Audyssey? 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> That's pretty impressive Chuck. What does this mean: _"It is not an exact apples to apples comparison as I measured with Dirac about 3 to 5 inches closer toward the MLP when I did the *outside measurements.*"_?
> Where your mic placements similar for Audyssey and Dirac, except of the "outside" measurements?


I used 8 measurements with Audyssey and 9 for Dirac. For Audyssey, I measured at the MLP, approximately 24 inches on either side of the MLP, behind the MLP about 24 inches at two points (behind the two outside positions on either side of the MLP), and 3 in front of the MLP about 24 inches. With Dirac, I measure at the MLP, about 18 inches on either side of the MLP, about 18 inches in front of the MLP (two measurements and then do the same positions but about 6 inches higher. This is the recommended positions for measuring a single seat with Dirac.



> The Dirac curve doesn't look like the preset curves I had for Dirac in the 88A that I had.


Wisdom Audio had Datasat add output channel presets which Dirac does look at. Dirac ignores input channel presets.



> The 88A presets had about a 6 dB downward slope from low to high frequencies. Yours looks pretty flat with just a couple dB of slope. Did you set it that way, or does the RS20I have different presets that the 88A?


Dirac provides an initial target curve which does have a very slight downward slope, but that can be modified as desired. While I modified the upper and lower end of their suggested targets (to eliminate any possibility of over correcting) I did not change the overall slope.



> Can the Pro Kit be used to set a target curve that doesn't have the steep roll off of the higher frequencies? It looks like Audyssey is starting to roll off at about 5kHz and is down well over 10 dB at 20 kHz. My understanding is that it's not supposed to start the roll off until 10 kHz, and then it's only supposed to be 3 dB at 20 kHz.


I assume you mean the Audyssey Pro kit? You can change the slope of the upper portion of the target curve. I don't recall making any changes to the recommended Audyssey target curve, but I may have. 



> Also, can the Pro Kit be used to eliminate the 2kHz dip? IIRC, my friend Jeff did that... and then immediately put it back in because he didn't like the result with the 2k dip removed.


In Audyssey Pro, you select a button to enable the 2K dip. I ALWAYS enabled it. Without the dip there was a definite harshness that would show it's ugly head on occasion particularly at high SPL's. I don't have that dip defined in my Dirac target curve and I have yet to hear the same issue. I have listened to close to ZERO music since I got the RS20i installed. Once I got it up and running, I started a NEW project to clean up my equipment rack (new rack from Middle Atlantic) AND do some serious cable management. That turned out to be a much larger task than I could have possibly imagined. I got the equipment out of the old rack and into the new one (after assembling the new one) in 1 day. I have been working on cable management coming up on two weeks, all day most every day. 



> Finally, how much different does Dirac SOUND than Audyssey?


Totally different. Envelopment is far, far superior. That was not a complete surprise since when I ran Dirac for two channel (from my server), it did a much better job of imaging than did Audyssey. So if you think about imaging between 11 speakers instead of two, what you end up with the better imaging in a 3 dimensional space, aka improved envelopment. 

Individual sounds that were previously buried in the mix have become more distinct. There is less sibilance in voices. The blend between the subs and all other speakers is greatly improved. The bass is also cleaner.

Stupid amount of money to spend but certainly better improvement than going from a $1000 amp to a $20,000 amp, changing all of your cables, etc. Next time you come south, come see my and we'll see if we can't get you to spend some more money !!!!!!


----------



## audioguy

I am experimenting with a version of this target (Harmon) curve: ---- and no, I don't know what the red line represents:



When I had my Marantz 7702, I would increase the LFE channel about ~5+ db over all of the other channels when watching action movies. The problem with doing so is that it would sometimes give chesty vocals that were clearly wrong. Since the LFE channel extends into the lower end of voices, this was not a surprise but I was OK with messing up the vocals to have "better" bass.

The Harmon curve gives results (for action movies) better (more fun) than just raising the bass and does not mess up the vocals. It is easy and quick to do so in Dirac on the RS20i (takes about 3 minutes to re optimize after defining a new target and uploading to the RS20i. Not quite so quick in Audyssey Pro). That said, I have a friend who is using Audyssey Pro on a Denon 5200 and he has created (in Audyssey Pro) a curve as similar as possible given Pro limitations. Neither he nor I have quite the bass increase as is depicted in this curve. We are up about 5 db or so. He likes that approach over just raising the LFE channel as do I.


----------



## audioguy

The addiction upgrade bug has struck yet again. A Kaleidescape Alto has been ordered with 6TB of storage. ( I sold an expensive watch I haven't worn in years to pay for it). I have chosen to wait until all of the 4K UHD issues have been standardized before I move forward with 4K and hence put off purchasing the Strato. I figure 18 months or so and the 4K dust should settle. In the meantime, I can get all of my movies cataloged at the least.

As with many other things I have said I would or would not do, getting a movie server made absolutely no sense to me. You put in a movie, watch it and 2 hours later, take it out. Why would I need a system to do that? Certainly the primary motivation is the "cool factor". But I have recently been exposed to multiple users with various K-Scape products and realize there are some other "real" benefits to one of these systems. 

I have been using some 3rd Party software to keep all of my movies organized and the Alto will replace that. And trying to decide what movie to watch should also be simplified as well and a few other goodies. Maybe after I have played with it for a few months I can further justify why I purchased it . But the "cool factor" is, at the moment, the only reason I need.


----------



## audioguy

Does it ever end? [Please know that was a rhetorical question. Of course it never ends]

I have now decided to sell the 2 DIY Stereo Integrity HST 18 subs and Peavey IPR 7500 amp and get 4 Seaton F18's to replace them [Master/3 Slaves]. I have simply been unable to get the bass I want trying to integrate the DIY subs and the SubMersive subs. The DIY subs really crush the Seaton SubMersives below 50HZ But above that point, they simply do not have the mid bass slam that I can get from the SubMersives --- and trying to integrate them has not worked. I had hoped to have the low end of the HST's and the mid bass slam of the Seatons. Can not get it to work. Had I never owned the SubMersives, I would be completely happy with my DIY subs. Simply incredible. Room shaking bass.

I have now heard 4 F18's (all be it in a much smaller room), and they seem to provide what I am looking for so the 4 F18's coupled with my existing two SubMersives will be the new bass package.


----------



## audioguy

Every since I first saw the theater done by Peter M (and others), I was really drawn to the look and feel. A friend just built a new theater and we copied (to the extent possible) that look, and it looks [and sounds] marvelous. I don't know if I can pull it off (or if I will even try), but that will be one of my next possible projects. And while it would bet cost prohibitive to move my L + R speakers behind the screen, I am going to evsaluate moving them closer to the screen. As it is now, the folks sitting anywhere but the MLP, are too close to the speakers. This will only occur if I can get reasonable frequency response in their new position. [Note: I have tried this multiple times with no success - but I will try again]

*UPDATE AS OF 08-02-16*

First of all, I decided to keep the Kaleidescape Alto {don't ask].

On a more important note, I was able to move the L+R speakers back about 18 inches, the FR prior to Dirac was different but no worse and the after-Dirac sound is awesome. On a separate note, one of the advantages of moving to the SubMersive F18 from my DIY subs is the form factor. I will be able to place them in the two front corners, turn them so the driver is facing along the front wall (vs facing into the room) and then hide them behind acoustically transparent acoustic fabric. Thus moving one step closer to making the room look less like the science project/recording studio it is currently and more like the room I would like to have [see photo below].

Here is a photo from Peter M's room.



Here is another version of that room (much smaller)


----------



## brian6751

do you have any more info on that second room?


----------



## audioguy

brian6751 said:


> do you have any more info on that second room?


What specifically would you like to know? It has B&W speakers all around; until the owner movies in (it is a show home for the next 10 months) it has 4 Sunfire subs (one in each corner) but those will be replaced by 4 Seaton F18's; JVC RS500 projector, Marantz 7702 SSP.


----------



## brian6751

The space size is very similar to mine. Is there any build pics or a thread?


----------



## audioguy

brian6751 said:


> The space size is very similar to mine. Is there any build pics or a thread?


I designed the acoustics for the room and the visual aspects of the room. It is not very large but does have 11 foot ceilings if I recall. There is no build thread since it is not my room and the guy whose room it is doesn't do that kind of stuff and almost never posts here.


----------



## audioguy

My 2 Seaton SubMersives have new playmates:


----------



## TMcG

audioguy said:


>


Furniture sliders for the win!! 

Looks like somebody is going to have a GREAT weekend playing with his new toys! The thought of your system having even greater low end grunt with this new Seaton kit has me giddy...or scared....but mostly giddy....


----------



## audioguy

TMcG said:


> Furniture sliders for the win!!
> 
> Looks like somebody is going to have a GREAT weekend playing with his new toys! The thought of your system having even greater low end grunt with this new Seaton kit has me giddy...or scared....but mostly giddy....


I was not home when they were delivered but my wife said the two FedEx guys about died moving close to 500 pounds of boxes into the garage. One of them said they had to be speakers because nothing else in that size box weighs that much. A friend and a friend of his carried them upstairs for me and then helped me stack them [with the sliders ] so it would be easy(er) for me to get them into the corners. Unfortunately, they put the powered unit on the bottom of one off the stacks so I will need some help re-doing it to the top. 

As you may remember, I had my 2 SubMersives stacked in the left rear corner and that asymmetry has always bugged me so I un-stacked them. I am going to try to place them along the rear wall [not stacked] and move them around to see if I can get reasonable non-EQ'd response coupled with the front subs that will now be in the corners. 

I'm not sure I will have more low end grunt but I am sure what ever grunt I do have, it will be cleaner than what I did have. The bigger [potential] gain for me is the bass north of about 50HZ vs the DIY subs --- and the slimmer profile which will allow me to hide them in the corners. The front of the room already looks so much better after having moved the two DIY subs out of the way. I can't even begin to count how much money I have spent on this addiction hobby as a result of trying to keep my OCDness and "neatnick" disorders in check.


----------



## audioguy

I have put theF18's close to where they will be and moved the rear SubMersives to their new spot on the rear wall. Set levels and looked at the FR. The blue curve is just the raw plots while the other included a couple of PEQ's to flatten things out a bit prior to room correction. Looks like a great start. Since Dirac does such a great job on the bass, it won't be necessary to use the PGM2 button on the SubMersive or the equivalent dial on the F18's. Once everything is in the exact spot, I will re-run Dirac on the subs and see where we are.


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> The blue curve is just the raw plots while the other included a couple of PEQ's to flatten things out a bit prior to room correction.


Looks really good. Quite free of room modes. Does this represent the response across the various seats?

I have a feeling that the PEQ at ~76 Hz ought to have a higher Q, then the dips at 72 and 82 Hz could be reduced. Just a guess.


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> Looks really good. Quite free of room modes. Does this represent the response across the various seats?
> 
> I have a feeling that the PEQ at ~76 Hz ought to have a higher Q, then the dips at 72 and 82 Hz could be reduced. Just a guess.


Roger, thanks. You may be right. But since the subs are not exactly where they will end up (building columns to hide them in the corners) and one of them is rotated 90 degrees from where it will end up, I didn't want to spend too much time diddling. But I will keep that in mind when I get them placed exactly where I want them. And no, this is not an average across the seats. I was just getting a base line to compare to my other sub setup. 

I am in the middle of listening to my system with no Dirac as the room is filled with "stuff" and won't do the final measurement until everything is in place - hopefully later this week. I was running OmniMic SPL while some of these actions scenes were playing and realized that at the levels I sometimes listen, bass peaks in excess of 120db are not exactly uncommon. I was very surprised. I was testing earlier today how loud the 4 F18's will play before they come unglued (compression/distortion) running signal sweeps through them. They can exceed 120 db with very little compression. Unfortunately, but not surpassingly (given I have 4 boxes of F18's and 2 of SubMersives), the dual SubMersives come apart much, much sooner and since all of the subs play at the same time, the sub "package" comes apart when the SubMersives do. I'm now trying to figure out a way to "justify" swapping my SubMersives for 4 more F18's OR buying two more SubMersives (Master/Slave). What an amazing and expensive addiction hobby I have chosen!!!

Roger: I thought I remembered that you were building a new home and/or new theater. Is that correct and if so, what is the status?


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> I'm now trying to figure out a way to "justify" swapping my SubMersives for 4 more F18's OR buying two more SubMersives (Master/Slave).


I don't want to get in the way of more F18's.  But I was thinking that an asymmetrical arrangement could work well, with bigger subs up front than rear -- the rears being closer to the fronts, it should take less power to either cancel the back wave (dual bass array) or to cancel modes. But all that will have to await getting the new room built to verify.



> Roger: I thought I remembered that you were building a new home and/or new theater. Is that correct and if so, what is the status?


The home is recently finished, and am just starting the theater build. This week will order 75 sheets of 4x8' materials (drywall, OSB, plywood) and 6 buckets of green glue to get the envelope enclosed. For now I live vicariously through the great builds at AVS Forum.


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> I don't want to get in the way of more F18's.  But I was thinking that an asymmetrical arrangement could work well, with bigger subs up front than rear -- *the rears being closer to the fronts*, it should take less power to either cancel the back wave (dual bass array) or to cancel modes. But all that will have to await getting the new room built to verify.


Did you mean rears being closer to the MLP or fronts? I am going to get some feedback from Mark on this. I really don't want to spend any more $ on subs if I don't absolutely have to so I can spend it on other stuff!


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> Did you mean rears being closer to the MLP or fronts? I am going to get some feedback from Mark on this. I really don't want to spend any more $ on subs if I don't absolutely have to so I can spend it on other stuff!


Sorry, rears being closer _than _the fronts. Would start with equal SPL at the MLP to see how many dB less is needed from the rears. That will add to the system headroom. Might also find out that the rears can be high-passed (or otherwise EQ'd down) somewhere below the longest axial mode (ballpark 35 Hz) and that means less subterranean excursion stress, again yielding more headroom. 

In other words, I'd try various subwoofer tuning strategies to get the most out of the current subs before throwing in the towel, err, wallet.


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> Sorry, rears being closer _than _the fronts. *Would start with equal SPL at the MLP to see how many dB less is needed from the rears*. That will add to the system headroom. *Might also find out that the rears can be high-passed (or otherwise EQ'd down) somewhere below the longest axial mode (ballpark 35 Hz) and that means less subterranean excursion stress, again yielding more headroom. *
> 
> In other words, I'd try various subwoofer tuning strategies to get the most out of the current subs before throwing in the towel, err, wallet.


Roger: Thanks for the recommendations. I actually have zero interest in spending more money but am willing to do so if necessary. I am hoping the high pass filter approach will buy me enough headroom. I was actually going to try the high pass filter approach this morning but would have started lower (around 20HZ) and moved up to see how much headroom I gained along the way.

I'm not sure I understand the red highlighted sentence. I already did set them at the same SPL at the MLP using the gain knob on the amps. When you state "see how many db less is needed from the rears" did you mean how much lower the gain knob would have been set than the fronts to match the SPL at the MLP? 

You, per chance, going to CEDIA?


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> I am hoping the high pass filter approach will buy me enough headroom. I was actually going to try the high pass filter approach this morning but would have started lower (around 20HZ) and moved up to see how much headroom I gained along the way.


 

One thing worth checking is the freq response of the front subs alone, and again the rears alone. In my room (4 identical subs) the rears were pretty useless below 30 Hz, so lopping them off


----------



## audioguy

Front subs (red) rear subs (black) combined (blue)


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> Front subs (red) rear subs (black) combined (blue)


It really makes the case for multiple subs. Your case, as in mine, would be hopeless without the front and rear working together. Looks like you could shift the burden


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> It really makes the case for multiple subs. Your case, as in mine, would be hopeless without the front and rear working together.


I have built 4 theaters and helped 3 other do the same and have financially consulted quite a few others. And in 100% of the cases [these were all rectangular sealed rooms], 4 subs, one placed each of the 4 corners always gave the best results while providing the best "cosmetic solution". I know that other approaches, such as random placement may work as well but in most cases, the places that acoustically work, don't work "cosmetically" or they block access or ......

What works almost as well is if 4 subs is a burden, 2 placed in diagonal corners [e.g. front left and right rear corners]. I started my multi-sub life that way but my OCD-ness would not allow the asymmetry !!!



> Looks like you could shift the burden


----------



## audioguy

New F18 subs being "caged" to control them 



Actually, we will be "hiding them" in the corners AND get the value of corner loading.


----------



## audioguy

Subs are hidden. HOWEVER, I got ahead of myself and used a few nails to hold the edges together. And now when I need to adjust gain or anything else on the Master, for the initial calibration, I get to take it apart. Oh well.


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> Ahh. I mistakenly assumed you set each for equal output at the unit itself. That is one of the strategies for multi-subs. You've already gone an alternate route.


I ended up taking a slightly different approach. I put the mic within about 1/2 inch of the drivers of one of the front subs and one of the rear subs and set the gain knobs on the rear so that the frequency curve was matched as close as possible. I then unstacked the subs (never was a fan of the asymmetrical look), and began sliding them along the rear wall with a frequency sweep running at the same time into all of the subs. When I got what was a reasonably flat response, changed the delay of the rear subs and -- bingo - not only did I get reasonably flat response, BUT, I can now get about 115+dB's out of the combination of all 4 subs prior to any serious distortion/compression. I am a happy camper as of today.

I had to leave town so have not yet run Dirac to see what I end up with, but I got a great starting point!!


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> I put the mic within about 1/2 inch of the drivers of one of the front subs and one of the rear subs and set the gain knobs on the rear so that the frequency curve was matched as close as possible.


While I cannot quite say I understand the process, I'm glad it looks promising without having to buy yet more subs.


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> While I cannot quite say I understand the process, I'm glad it looks promising without having to buy yet more subs.


I'm not sure I understand the process either. The intent was to insure each of the subs were putting the same energy into the room (having the mic that close to the sub driver was as close to anechoic as I could get), and then deal with the difference in placement by adjusting the delays. It appears to have worked.


----------



## audioguy

As a follow up to my LFE integration, I continued to run into issues that after setting PEQ's on the subs, and getting really excellent results with a few PEQ's, Dirac not only messed up the measured frequency response, the sound itself was for below expectations. No matter what I did, this occurred.

I now use only PEQ's on the LFE channel, and at least for movies, it is the best bass I have ever had in any of my rooms/theaters and the best bass I have ever heard anywhere else as well. As an FYI, with the Datasat products, you can choose to use Dirac only on selected channels. 

I will continue to investigate why Dirac makes it worse, but for know, INCREDIBLE !!

With my new JVC projector (RS500), I get the very best picture I have ever had (way better than my Sony 600ES and even my wife, who notices nothing, comments on how great it looks) and the sound in my room, I am a happy camper.


----------



## audioguy

While I love the acoustic effect of the side wall (and rear wall) diffusors, they are a major pain in the backside to keep clean. I finally decided to do something about it, soooooo, I decided to proceed along the lines of turning my room into a black hole. And the first step was to cover these in a huge fabric (no treatment) panel. And then work on the remainder of the room as my patience allows. The panels on either side of this big mama will be the width of the painted space but about 16 inches high trying to achieve the effect (somewhat) of Peter B's room. 

Peter B's Room:



The frame for one of the giant panels:



Covered:



Eventually all walls will be black and the 4 columns will be gray GOM. Some part of the ceiling will be black and the floor is more complicated since I have no intention of ripping up the carpet and putting something on top of the carpet may be a tripping hazard.


----------



## COACH2369

Welcome to the "Dark Side". 

That panel turned out great!


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> Welcome to the "Dark Side".
> 
> That panel turned out great!


Thanks. The door will be tricky. 

I'm going to (may) have GIK (depending on price), build the smaller panels that will go on either side of the big one. This is sort of the look I am going for. It will not actually be grey between the panels but this is just to show there will be a space between them. I wanted beveled panels but GIK can't make them and I don't want to spend the time doing it so a space between them will get me the same feel (hopefully);


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> Thanks. The door will be tricky.
> 
> I'm going to (may) have GIK (depending on price), build the smaller panels that will go on either side of the big one. This is sort of the look I am going for. It will not actually be grey between the panels but this is just to show there will be a space between them. I wanted beveled panels but GIK can't make them and I don't want to spend the time doing it so a space between them will get me the same feel (hopefully);


I was really happy with how the GOM material turned out with the Alpha panels I ordered from them. If I had the funds, I would have ordered more of them but overall the room turned out how I wanted.


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> I was really happy with how the GOM material turned out with the Alpha panels I ordered from them. If I had the funds, I would have ordered more of them but overall the room turned out how I wanted.


GIK built all of the small panels on the face and underside of my soffits; all of the current room treatment on all four wall and the 3 ceiling pieces. The only thing he did not provide (other than the black GOM) were the two front corner pieces to hide my subs and provide a space for corner traps.

I was at GIK in Atlanta last week and they are growing by leaps and bounds. Just doubled their space (and already running out) and will be ordering another CNC machine. Provide a good product as a reasonable price and offer good customer service and some well placed marketing and .....boom, a successful company. Plus, he is a very nice guy !!


----------



## gamest

Just wanted to say thanks for the HVAC powered fan info help and also I was just wondering, was the F18s that much of an upgrade over the Seaton HP+? I have been thinking of upgrading form my one Seaton HP+ and Klipsch KL-120s. Maybe, two or four F18, but not sure if it would be worth it. I already have so much output and not sure it would be a noticeable upgrade. Thanks


----------



## audioguy

gamest said:


> Just wanted to say thanks for the HVAC powered fan info help and also I was just wondering, was the F18s that much of an upgrade over the Seaton HP+? I have been thinking of upgrading form my one Seaton HP+ and Klipsch KL-120s. Maybe, two or four F18, but not sure if it would be worth it. I already have so much output and not sure it would be a noticeable upgrade. Thanks


The F18's provide a thinner form factor than did the SubMersives and I wanted to hide the subs in the front corners (the SubMersives were too deep and wide).

I actually don't see the F18's being an upgrade over the SubMersive except below 25Hz. And if you end up with, for example, 4 SubMersives so you have plenty of headroom, you can use a miniDSP or even the on board PGM1 buttons to boost the signal below about 40Hz. 

If you were starting from scratch and did not already have the SubMersive, I would then consider the F18's.


----------



## gamest

audioguy said:


> The F18's provide a thinner form factor than did the SubMersives and I wanted to hide the subs in the front corners (the SubMersives were too deep and wide).
> 
> I actually don't see the F18's being an upgrade over the SubMersive except below 25Hz. And if you end up with, for example, 4 SubMersives so you have plenty of headroom, you can use a miniDSP or even the on board PGM1 buttons to boost the signal below about 40Hz.
> 
> If you were starting from scratch and did not already have the SubMersive, I would then consider the F18's.


Yeah, okay that is what I was thinking too. I already use the DSP PGM1 on my HP+ and love it, now I am thinking maybe buy another two SubMersive in a master/slave configuration along with the one I have now for three total. Buying a SubMersive was hands down, the best, most significant, most enjoyable upgrade I have made over the years on any equipment I have owned. Anyways, thanks again


----------



## audioguy

By the way, integrating multiple subs, done such that you get the very best results, is *VERY* time consuming. Ask Mark Seaton (or Adam Peltz a well known and respected calibrator) ... or me. So before you decide to do that, just recognize that *great patience* is required. You can get them to all play very quickly, but to extract what they, as a group, are capable of takes *LOTS* of time. But, that said, enjoy the journey.


----------



## SXRDISBEST

This is one fantastic room! In fact, one of the best I've seen! I think that velvet we discussed will definitely help with your screen so close to the area with your can lights. Its funny because I have the exact same screen size as you but somehow mine looks smaller. Although our screens are similar, your sub setup makes mine wimper away with its tail between its legs.


----------



## audioguy

SXRDISBEST said:


> This is one fantastic room! In fact, one of the best I've seen! I think that velvet we discussed will definitely help with your screen so close to the area with your can lights. Its funny because I have the exact same screen size as you but somehow mine looks smaller. Although our screens are similar, your sub setup makes mine wimper away with its tail between its legs.


Thanks for the very kind words. 

My wife is concerned that once I get the remainder of the side walls black, that the room will "feel" too small. But I give here the same answer I always do. "It may or may not feel small when the lights are on but once the lights are off and we are watching a movie, not only will you not be able to tell that the room feels smaller, but that the picture will be better." At which I get some of these     

I have discovered, that as long as she does not have some addiction hobby that she is passionate about, she will never get it. 

As for the subs, I am a believer that bass is the foundation of great music reproduction and there is no such thing as "too much bass" so long as it is integrated well with the other speakers AND that it is clean, tight, and articulate. Anything less can totally ruin the experience. I would rather have one small sub that provided clean, tight and articulate bass than a bazillion that did not meet my very stringent audio standards.

I like to watch action movies at much higher levels than she does (or most of our friends for that matter), so I now watch them first by my self and then we watch together at the volume she, or our friends, like....and I give up the sweet spot for our guests. Everybody's happy that way. For what we call "relationship movies", we watch together at whatever volume she likes. 

And thanks again for you kind words.


----------



## SXRDISBEST

How is your black out project coming along? It looks like you have a lot of square footage to cover with that large room. Luckily I finished mine this weekend, but only because I'm not doing the whole room. Definitely post some pics of your progress!


----------



## audioguy

SXRDISBEST said:


> How is your black out project coming along? It looks like you have a lot of square footage to cover with that large room. Luckily I finished mine this weekend, but only because I'm not doing the whole room. Definitely post some pics of your progress!


The rear half of the side walls is (for the most part) complete; the front wall is complete; I built and installed the large ones to cover my diffusor on the front half of the side walls (the black diffusors are dust magnets and they were shiny). I would like to use beveled panels on the two sides of the large panels that I built to add some interest to an overall very boring and dull room (but great for maximum viewing pleasure) - see post 254. I don't have any easy way to create frames with beveled edges, so got a bid from a company but it was REALLY expensive. I also got a bid from GIK to build the frames with no beveled edges - also too expensive.

My next step is to get re-bids but make each panel a bit larger but have fewer of them to see if I can get the price down. If I can't get it down to a number I am comfortable with (either beveled or not) I will build them myself. 

THEN I will need to order the velvet for the ceiling panels, build them and install them.

The back wall, for the most part, is already black. I also have 3 more of the Diffusors on that wall and will be covering them too. There are two spots, each about 30 inches wide that I will need to cover, then go find some solution for the floor.

Hopefully, I should be completed in the next 2 to 4 weeks - Lord willing !!

Lastly, to add a bit more interest to the room, I will be covering the 4 columns with some color of gray GOM.


----------



## SXRDISBEST

audioguy said:


> The rear half of the side walls is (for the most part) complete; the front wall is complete; I built and installed the large ones to cover my diffusor on the front half of the side walls (the black diffusors are dust magnets and they were shiny). I would like to use beveled panels on the two sides of the large panels that I built to add some interest to an overall very boring and dull room (but great for maximum viewing pleasure) - see post 254. I don't have any easy way to create frames with beveled edges, so got a bid from a company but it was REALLY expensive. I also got a bid from GIK to build the frames with no beveled edges - also too expensive.
> 
> My next step is to get re-bids but make each panel a bit larger but have fewer of them to see if I can get the price down. If I can't get it down to a number I am comfortable with (either beveled or not) I will build them myself.
> 
> THEN I will need to order the velvet for the ceiling panels, build them and install them.
> 
> The back wall, for the most part, is already black. I also have 3 more of the Diffusors on that wall and will be covering them too. There are two spots, each about 30 inches wide that I will need to cover, then go find some solution for the floor.
> 
> Hopefully, I should be completed in the next 2 to 4 weeks - Lord willing !!
> 
> Lastly, to add a bit more interest to the room, I will be covering the 4 columns with some color of gray GOM.


It's crazy what companies charge to do woodwork! Are you going to do large panels to cover the doors as well? I feel like those would be the most challenging with the doorknobs and all.

Where are you going to get your velvet from? SY?


----------



## audioguy

SXRDISBEST said:


> Are you going to do large panels to cover the doors as well? I feel like those would be the most challenging with the doorknobs and all.


Here is what I did for the door going to the equipment room. For years I just had the panels on it but it did not line up with the screen and it drove me nuts (OCD).

Just the Door:










Then I built a panel which I hinged to the corner bass trap and close it to get a nice flush finish.










In order to enlarge these, click the version as an attachment.

I am not sure what I am going to do for the theater entry door. It sits well bedding the wall (opens out) so I have to come up with something. The door to the rooms behind theater I will just cover in one large panel allowing (some how) access to the door handle.



> Where are you going to get your velvet from? SY?


Since you have done this, I will take your lead. Tell me the web site and the name of the material and I will order it from them.


----------



## wse

audioguy said:


> While I love the acoustic effect of the side wall (and rear wall) diffusors, they are a major pain in the backside to keep clean. I finally decided to do something about it, soooooo, I decided to proceed along the lines of turning my room into a black hole. And the first step was to cover these in a huge fabric (no treatment) panel. And then work on the remainder of the room as my patience allows. The panels on either side of this big mama will be the width of the painted space but about 16 inches high trying to achieve the effect (somewhat) of Peter B's room.
> 
> Peter B's Room:
> 
> 
> 
> The frame for one of the giant panels:
> 
> 
> 
> Covered:
> 
> 
> 
> Eventually all walls will be black and the 4 columns will be gray GOM. Some part of the ceiling will be black and the floor is more complicated since I have no intention of ripping up the carpet and putting something on top of the carpet may be a tripping hazard.


Magnificent how much would you estimate the cost of your room without equipment?


----------



## audioguy

wse said:


> Magnificent how much would you estimate the cost of your room without equipment?


The room started as a loft, so one new wall had to be built. We added the "screen wall" which is a full wall to both mount the screen (and center speaker) as well as used to create the equipment room. Counting double drywall and green glue, electrical (5 or 6 20 amp dedicated circuits) carpet underlayment (that stuff is heavy), the 4 columns for the surrounds, soffits for bass traps, lighting, carpet, special door frames, 2 custom doors, and paint, I think around $40,000. I did the room design but hired a General Contractor to do all of the work. There is about $10,000 worth of Acoustic Treatment in the room (not part of the $40,000).


----------



## SXRDISBEST

audioguy said:


> Here is what I did for the door going to the equipment room. For years I just had the panels on it but it did not line up with the screen and it drove me nuts (OCD).
> 
> Just the Door:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then I built a panel which I hinged to the corner bass trap and close it to get a nice flush finish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In order to enlarge these, click the version as an attachment.
> 
> I am not sure what I am going to do for the theater entry door. It sits well bedding the wall (opens out) so I have to come up with something. The door to the rooms behind theater I will just cover in one large panel allowing (some how) access to the door handle.
> 
> 
> 
> Since you have done this, I will take your lead. Tell me the web site and the name of the material and I will order it from them.


I actually bought from Hobby Lobby because I wanted it same day. It was their 14.99 triple velvet for 40% off. Which you can use everyday. If you have time to wait a week of so, then syfabrics.Com is the place to go. It's their triple velvet and I think it's 7.99 a yard. You can also find the same stuff on amazon for about the same. It's definitely easier to order from Amazon. If you just search triple velvet, you should find a vendor that has it listed as SY brand.


----------



## SXRDISBEST

Here you go! 

http://www.syfabrics.com/View.aspx/Plush-Triple-Velvet/Black-Plush-Triple-Velvet/681/264


----------



## jdlynch

*Seymour AT Screen*

Hi Chuck,


How do you like your Seymour AT screen in regard to picture quality? I'm considering a Seymour Enlightor 4K so that I can move my speakers behind the screen. My concern is that I will not be satisfied with the sharpness coming from a Carada BW with a (published) gain of 1.3.


I have a sample on its way, but a sample will only give me a rough idea of what an entire screen would look like.


----------



## audioguy

jdlynch said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> 
> How do you like your Seymour AT screen in regard to picture quality? I'm considering a Seymour Enlightor 4K so that I can move my speakers behind the screen. My concern is that I will not be satisfied with the sharpness coming from a Carada BW with a (published) gain of 1.3.
> 
> I have a sample on its way, but a sample will only give me a rough idea of what an entire screen would look like.


I love it. I came from a Stewart 1.3 gain screen and I see no signficant difference in quality - either brightness or clarity. I sit about 13 or 14 feet from the screen and of course, can see no weave and I have a couple of friends who sits about 11 feet from theirs and can see no artifacts either. You will LOVE having your speakers behind the screen!! 

The only negative thing a large AT screen does is limit your viewing of HDR material - unless you have one of the megabuck light cannon projectors. I watch in SDR/WCG. To get reasonable HDR out of the more realistically priced projectors, one needs to have a high gain screen (e.g. 2.x) and/or a much smaller screen. In my opinion, the only *real way* to get all of the HDR benefits is to use one of the newer flat panel displays.

Go for the AT screen. I predict you will be more than satisfied. And Seymour certainly knows what they are doing.


----------



## jdlynch

audioguy said:


> I love it. I came from a Stewart 1.3 gain screen and I see no signficant difference in quality - either brightness or clarity. I sit about 13 or 14 feet from the screen and of course, can see no weave and I have a couple of friends who sits about 11 feet from theirs and can see no artifacts either. You will LOVE having your speakers behind the screen!!
> 
> The only negative thing a large AT screen does is limit your viewing of HDR material - unless you have one of the megabuck light cannon projectors. I watch in SDR/WCG. To get reasonable HDR out of the more realistically priced projectors, one needs to have a high gain screen (e.g. 2.x) and/or a much smaller screen. In my opinion, the only *real way* to get all of the HDR benefits is to use one of the newer flat panel displays.
> 
> Go for the AT screen. I predict you will be more than satisfied. And Seymour certainly knows what they are doing.


Thanks Chuck.

Which Seymour screen material do you have? I'm considering the enlightor 4K.


----------



## audioguy

Center Stage XD™


----------



## audioguy

Just found this photo of my first "serious" theater. There had been a few prior to this photo.



If Dirac had been available then and I had replaced the tweeters with something that could handle more power, I would still own these (Dunlavy SC-VI).


----------



## Eric Hamilton

This theater room is on for the books on how to do it right!


----------



## audioguy

Eric Hamilton said:


> This theater room is on for the books on how to do it right!


Thank you for your kind words. It is a continuing process. At the moment, my current project is to use velvet to black out all surfaces near the screen that can reflect light from the screen. The ceiling will be done today. Then follows under the front soffit, the inside of the left and right speaker and then the floor. It is quite interesting when the entire front end of the room becomes invisible when the lights are off and the only thing you can see is the movie you are enjoying. Truly adds to the immersive effect.

After that, some more cosmetic work on the side walls and columns (cover in BOM material) and then (maybe) replace the on-ceiling speakers with in-ceiling speakers. Then I will be as "completed" as any theater belonging to an addict hobbyist is ever "completed"


----------



## carp

audioguy said:


> Thank you for your kind words. It is a continuing process. At the moment, my current project is to use velvet to black out all surfaces near the screen that can reflect light from the screen. The ceiling will be done today. Then follows under the front soffit, the inside of the left and right speaker and then the floor. It is quite interesting when the entire front end of the room becomes invisible when the lights are off and the only thing you can see is the movie you are enjoying. Truly adds to the immersive effect.
> 
> After that, some more cosmetic work on the side walls and columns (cover in BOM material) and then (maybe) replace the on-ceiling speakers with in-ceiling speakers. Then I will be as "completed" as any theater belonging to an addict hobbyist is ever "completed"


I don't know if you saw that I put up velvet on the ceiling and walls on the front half of the room last fall, but it's so worth it. I didn't put velvet on the floor though.... hmmmm.......


----------



## audioguy

carp said:


> I don't know if you saw that I put up velvet on the ceiling and walls on the front half of the room last fall, but it's so worth it. I didn't put velvet on the floor though.... hmmmm.......


I had not seen your velvet updated room. Looks great. The ceiling, under side of soffit and inside of speakers will help but the floor is "just there". I tried the black rug on the floor under the screen and while better, not close to what black velvet will do.

In my case, since I have a door into my equipment room behind the screen, I need to make provision for getting back there and not walking on my yet to be built velvet walkway - so it needs to be movable. Still trying to come up with a plan to do that and at the moment, it looks like I will cover 3/8th inch plywood or MDF and staple the velvet around it in manageable sized pieces so I can move it out of the way when not watching a movie and back not place when we are.

Oh, the things we will do to improve our theaters !!

How are you liking your JBL speakers?


----------



## carp

audioguy said:


> I had not seen your velvet updated room. Looks great. The ceiling, under side of soffit and inside of will help but the floor is "just there". I tried the black rug on the floor under the screen and while better, not close to what black velvet will do.
> 
> In my case, since I have a door into my equipment room behind the screen, I need to make provision for getting back there and not walking on my yet to be built velvet walkway - so it needs to be movable. Still trying to come up with a plan to do that and at the moment, it looks like I will cover 3/8th inch plywood or MDF and staple the velvet around it in manageable sized pieces so I can move it out of the way when not watching a movie and back not place when we are.
> 
> Oh, the things we will do to improve our theaters !!
> 
> How are you liking your JBL ?


Good idea for the floor, I might steal that one. 

I'm loving the JBL setup, but then again I loved the JTR's too. Lateral move for sure. If they were the same price I'd go with JTR, but getting the cheaper JBL's allowed me to partially fund the Atmos setup so I'm glad I did it.


----------



## audioguy

carp said:


> Good idea for the floor, I might steal that one.
> 
> I'm loving the JBL setup, but then again I loved the JTR's too. Lateral move for sure. If they were the same price I'd go with JTR, but getting the cheaper JBL's allowed me to partially fund the Atmos setup so I'm glad I did it.


I know all about exchanging something to buy something else. Unfortunately, mine was NOT a lateral move when I went from Seaton subs to DIY. One of the worst decisions I have ever made in audio. I am now back to all Seaton but (of course) spent way more in the recovery than in the original transaction!! 

Before you borrow my floor idea, let me see how well it works. Playing with velvet is not the same as playing with GOM fabric.


----------



## carp

audioguy said:


> I know all about exchanging something to buy something else. Unfortunately, mine was NOT a lateral move when I went from Seaton subs to DIY. One of the worst decisions I have ever made in audio. I am now back to all Seaton but (of course) spent way more in the recovery than in the original transaction!!
> 
> Before you borrow my floor idea, let me see how well it works. Playing with velvet is not the same as playing with GOM fabric.



So with the DIY subs you gained low end but lost something in the 50-60hz and above ranges I'm guessing? I feel like I got really lucky with my DIY subs because the drivers aren't the heavy low hz air movers, they are the cheap/lighter drivers that do well in the mid bass and then if you have enough of them you can also get enough (at least for me) of the low stuff. 


Very true, velvet is harder to work with but so much darker than GOM!!


----------



## carp

Also, don't get too frustrated about making mistakes, IMO it's part of the hobby! A few months back I spend the better part of 2 weekends putting up some diffusion panels and after the fact I found out they aren't nearly deep/varied enough to do much of anything with the frequencies that matter. Oh well, I'll replace them someday... Should have done a bit more research (or any) before jumping into that one. Fortuntately they were cheap but they did cost me a lot of time.


----------



## audioguy

carp said:


> *Also, don't get too frustrated about making mistakes, IMO it's part of the hobby! * A few months back I spend the better part of 2 weekends putting up some diffusion panels and after the fact I found out they aren't nearly deep/varied enough to do much of anything with the frequencies that matter. Oh well, I'll replace them someday... Should have done a bit more research (or any) before jumping into that one. Fortuntately they were cheap but they did cost me a lot of time.


You are right. I have made other "mistakes" but I have yet to recover fully from this one. But, I am happy I still (mostly) love this addiction hobby


----------



## Scott Simonian

audioguy said:


> I know all about exchanging something to buy something else. Unfortunately, mine was NOT a lateral move when I went from Seaton subs to DIY. One of the worst decisions I have ever made in audio. I am now back to all Seaton but (of course) spent way more in the recovery than in the original transaction!!
> 
> Before you borrow my floor idea, let me see how well it works. Playing with velvet is not the same as playing with GOM fabric.


Not everybody is made for DIY. 

Glad you're happy on your side of the line.


----------



## audioguy

Scott Simonian said:


> Not everybody is made for DIY.
> 
> Glad you're happy on your side of the line.


There may have been a DIY solution that gave me what I was looking for but the drivers I selected weren't them. It's all about preference and I like the mid to upper bass impact I had/have with the Seaton boxes that I was never able to extract from my DIY solution, even with Mark Seaton's assistance. Others prefer the balance provided by their subs (DIY or not).


----------



## audioguy

On going projects:

(1) Finally gave up trying to get an HD Fury to allow me to get two different 4K devices into two non 4K inputs. It has yet to work consistently - or even close to it Going to an *HDMI matrix switching box* ( 4 in/1 out) and put all of my 4K devices into my single 4K input. Expected completion date: June 15th.

(2) Looking at some black carpet to have custom fitted to the front of the room. Then the walls, under soffit, ceiling and floor will all be black. Even not being completed yet, great improvement in the video. Expected completion date: July 1st

(3) Have a few more panels to build for the side wall and columns so the room will be mostly GOM fabric. Expected completion date: July 1st.

(4) Getting rid of my SubMersives and replacing with 4 Seaton F18's....for a total of 8 ---and that is just plain stupid !!! Expected completion date (including totally integrated): July 20th.


----------



## audioguy

Is there a way to change the title of a thread?


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Is there a way to change the title of a thread?


I think you have to contact an admin. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## grassy

Nice room audioguy, i recently changed mine to black and don't know what i was thinking going another color.I should of went black years ago.Great room mate.


----------



## audioguy

grassy said:


> Nice room audioguy, i recently changed mine to black and don't know what i was thinking going another color.I should of went black years ago.Great room mate.


Thank you. Initially I wanted a room that was as acoustically excellent as possible and wasn't much concerned with decor. When I discovered the thread on treating the room with black, it provided a way to improve the image on the screen and make the room look a bit less like a recording studio. But I will be glad when this project is over. I am tired of making changes and just want to get on with enjoying movies (and music).

Thanks again.


----------



## grassy

audioguy said:


> Thank you. Initially I wanted a room that was as acoustically excellent as possible and wasn't much concerned with decor. When I discovered the thread on treating the room with black, it provided a way to improve the image on the screen and make the room look a bit less like a recording studio. But I will be glad when this project is over. I am tired of making changes and just want to get on with enjoying movies (and music).
> 
> Thanks again.


Well as i understand it,having black walls can make a projected image stand out nicely in a dedicated room with no windows,so as i am getting a new JVC its going to be a step up in the video department for me.What i like about your room is that it has a cinema feeling to it as i have moved away from the house/family look with the odd colors and am taking note of rooms like yours and others and have come up with some nice changes for my own.After all these years i can say now,that i have reached the color i am after.Will post some pics once my new gear arrives. Cheers mate.


----------



## audioguy

You will LOVE your new JVC. Even in a non-black room the image is incredible. Each time I use the theater, I am amazed at the quality of the picture. The black room has just moved the image up a notch .... or seven !! Even my wife will (very reluctantly) admit it's a better image.


----------



## audioguy

Making progress in getting the theater "black" When it's all completed, everything will be black except the 4 columns (gray GOM); the last 2/3rd's of the carpet (gray) and maybe the back 2/3rd's of the ceiling (gray).

What is left to do: Finish three more columns, have the carpet installed (scheduled for July3rd) and build and cover the area on the back wall that will house my rear subs (in black GOM). I hope to finish at least two more columns tomorrow, the last one being the most difficult. 

Original photo of side wall:



Side wall (excluding column) covered in black)



Building and fitting gray "column covers":



Wrapping column cover:



Column cover in place:


----------



## BrolicBeast

Nice job!!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## grassy

Really good job audioguy, i am really impressed with those mains speakers and the layout of the room,You've done an excellent job mate.And those ceiling speakers firing down.Nice


----------



## audioguy

grassy said:


> And those ceiling speakers firing down.Nice


Thanks for the complement.

When I purchased the ceiling speakers, they were to be temporary until either Triad came out with an "officlal" Atmos speaker or I selected some other in-ceiling product. Not a fan of the speakers because they are visually intrusive and hang down too low (only have 8 foot ceilings). Once the room blackening project is complete, that is next on the list.

I was early in the Atmos game and there were not many choices of speakers that had the right radiation pattern.

Triad showed the perfect Atmos speaker with an aimable tweeter (using a built in laster pointing device in October 2106 at CEDIA. It is STILL not a product so I am going elsewhere.


----------



## grassy

audioguy said:


> Thanks for the complement.
> 
> When I purchased the ceiling speakers, they were to be temporary until either Triad came out with an "officlal" Atmos speaker or I selected some other in-ceiling product. Not a fan of the speakers because they are visually intrusive and hang down too low (only have 8 foot ceilings). Once the room blackening project is complete, that is next on the list.
> 
> I was early in the Atmos game and there were not many choices of speakers that had the right radiation pattern.
> 
> Triad showed the perfect Atmos speaker with an aimable tweeter (using a built in laster pointing device in October 2106 at CEDIA. It is STILL not a product so I am going elsewhere.


I just ordered 2 Yamaha NS IC800W in celing speakers for Atmos for $399.00 reduced from $568.00.I will see how they perform.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Thanks for the complement.
> 
> When I purchased the ceiling speakers, they were to be temporary until either Triad came out with an "officlal" Atmos speaker or I selected some other in-ceiling product. Not a fan of the speakers because they are visually intrusive and hang down too low (only have 8 foot ceilings). Once the room blackening project is complete, that is next on the list.
> 
> I was early in the Atmos game and there were not many choices of speakers that had the right radiation pattern.
> 
> Triad showed the perfect Atmos speaker with an aimable tweeter (using a built in laster pointing device in October 2106 at CEDIA. It is STILL not a product so I am going elsewhere.


Check out the RSL C34E speakers for atmos...an excellent match for Platinums. I love mine. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Check out the RSL C34E speakers for atmos...an excellent match for Platinums. I love mine.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Don't you have yours mounted "on" the ceiling with backer-boxes covered over with your ceiling cloud? I need "IN" ceiling


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Don't you have yours mounted "on" the ceiling with backer-boxes covered over with your ceiling cloud? I need "IN" ceiling


Mine are mounted to the bottom of the ceiling clouds and use the clouds as speaker cabinets. They are intended to be in-ceilings though. I had many email conversations with RSL regarding ways to transform the ceiling clouds into shared speaker cabinets to work with two in-ceiling RSLs each....they hit me with insulation density and locations, cubic foot requirements, etc. to meet my volume/bass extension goals. 

Shot below:









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

Status of cosmetic change in theater to go along with new theater name:

BEFORE:



AFTER: - CARPET STILL TO BE CHANGED. 

Also changed lighting from 2700K incandescent to 5000K LED's


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> Status of cosmetic change in theater to go along with new theater name:
> 
> BEFORE:
> 
> 
> 
> AFTER: - CARPET STILL TO BE CHANGED.
> 
> Also changed lighting from 2700K incandescent to 5000K LED's


The walls have turned out great and I can't wait to see how the carpet completes the room.

I saw where you posted about looking into a true "in"ceiling speaker option. That is something that I am also looking to do...probably should have done that from the beginning, but oh well. Most likely that will be an early 2018 project.


----------



## carp

Wow, that's a GREAT looking room! I was already a fan of how the room looked but the after is on another level. Congrats man, that's a room I could spend way too much time in!


----------



## audioguy

carp said:


> Wow, that's a GREAT looking room! I was already a fan of how the room looked but the after is on another level. Congrats man, that's a room I could spend way too much time in!


Thank you. Even prior to making any headway on the black upgrades, the change from 2700K lighting to 5000K (LED's - daylight) lighting was transformational. The part I like best has been my wife's reaction. I got a LOT of sour looks as I was working on this project......and a LOT of "why are you doing this" questions. And I mean a LOT!

She is blown away by how it came out and (are you ready for this) said: "I should have trusted your vision".

So, yes, between the black (and touch of gray) walls, part black ceiling, and the new lights --- and soon-to-be black carpet, I am looking forward to actually USING the room for its intended purpose --- watching movies (and SOON, college football)!!!


----------



## audioguy

Continuing with the "face lift" and getting all surfaces covered in GOM (and hiding all speakers but Left and Right. The following photos show the initial rear wall with two SubMersives (covered the q7D diffusors with black GOM, and building the enclosure for four (more) F18's to be delivered today.


----------



## BrolicBeast

I love what you're doing here. I think you've inspired me to cover my two visible subwoofer stacks in the rear corners of the room.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> I love what you're doing here. I think you've inspired me to cover my two visible subwoofer stacks in the rear corners of the room.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks. I actually got the idea from a friend who I help with his theater. He has 4 F18's and each are cleverly hidden in the 4 corners of his room. He helped me hide the 4 F18's in the front corners of my room. It is one of those project that is a pain in the fanny to do but the end result is worth it. The best part about all of these changes I am making (and there has been a huge amount of time invested) is that my wife likes the new look WAY better than the old look. (She has yet to see the 8.5 feet of black carpet that has now replaced the first 8.5 feet of gray carpet -- though she most certainly knows we were gong to do it). My 4 new F18's are to be here later today !!!!!!


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> Thanks. I actually got the idea from a friend who I help with his theater. He has 4 F18's and each are cleverly hidden in the 4 corners of his room. He helped me hide the 4 F18's in the front corners of my room. It is one of those project that is a pain in the fanny to do but the end result is worth it. The best part about all of these changes I am making (and there has been a huge amount of time invested) is that my wife likes the new look WAY better than the old look. (She has yet to see the 8.5 feet of black carpet that has now replaced the first 8.5 feet of gray carpet -- though she most certainly knows we were gong to do it). My 4 new F18's are to be here later today !!!!!!


If I am reading this right, the carpet has been installed?

If so, I can't wait to see the pictures of it and get your impressions...

Once things are better with my employment situation, I am going to be replacing my screen material and look into getting a custom black "rug" made for the front of my room. Might also look into different Atmos speakers, but that is TBD.

Your remodel looks amazing too.


----------



## internetn

Gorgeous setup!


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> If I am reading this right, the carpet has been installed?


It is installed. While my wife was OK with the idea of replacing the front portion of carpet, she was reluctant to do as much as I would have done. Given 6 inches is hidden behind front room treatment, I still come out about 8 feet from the screen. I have a velvet covered enclosure in a corner - on the floor - that covers an extension cord (long story). No surprise but the carpet, by comparison, looks dark gray -- but then so does everything when compared to black velvet.



> If so, I can't wait to see the pictures of it and get your impressions...


I can't either. Hopefully I will be completed with all of the "construction" today or tomorrow (have two more panels and one of the doors to do). Then I need to recalibrate everything, and the subs may (or may not) take a long time. Then I should actually get to watch a movie ... or 12. My guess is that it will be this weekend or Monday at the latest.





> Your remodel looks amazing too.


Thank you very much. It has taken way longer than I had anticipated. Way longer. And GOM fabric is not inexpensive and basically every wall is 100% covered and part of the ceiling -- and soffits and corner traps.


----------



## audioguy

internetn said:


> Gorgeous setup!


Thank you. 

All previous theaters (and this one as well) have looked liked recording studios with all kinds of room treatment exposed, placed where it needed to be. It was all about function over form. This effort has allowed me to have function and my version of form. 

I absolutely love the looks of some of the more exotic home theaters shown on AVS with beautiful wood and gorgeous coffered ceilings and exotic lighting and attractive fabric colors. But, I chose to go the all black fabric route to keep function still over form. It certainly does not look as beautiful (when the lights are on) as some of the more fancy rooms, but it looks nice enough that way and, when the lights are off, really does greatly improve the entire movie watching experience - dramatically actually. 

Thank you again.


----------



## audioguy

While I am not finished in the theater, decided to try to take a photo that represented what the room actually looks like with the black carpet.

Not too accurate. While the black GOM on the screen wall is certainly "more black" than the carpet, it is not as much as this photo indicates since the carpet gets direct light and the GOM does not.

I have yet to turn on the projector but when I did so with samples, they disappeared - and that is all I care about !! We shall see










FWIW: Black carpet shows every white spec, piece of dust, ANYTHING. (Have not vacuumed this lately) Looks like my next addiction will be vacuuming.

And no, that is not a crease on my screen. I took this with a real camera and was hand held and slow shutter speed. When this is all completed, I will take all new photos with a tripod and real camera.


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> While I am not finished in the theater, decided to try to take a photo that represented what the room actually looks like with the black carpet.
> 
> Not too accurate. While the black GOM on the screen wall is certainly "more black" than the carpet, it is not as much as this photo indicates since the carpet gets direct light and the GOM does not.
> 
> I have yet to turn on the projector but when I did so with samples, they disappeared - and that is all I care about !! We shall see
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW: Black carpet shows every white spec, piece of dust, ANYTHING. (Have not vacuumed this lately) Looks like my next addiction will be vacuuming.
> 
> And no, that is not a crease on my screen. I took this with a real camera and was hand held and slow shutter speed. When this is all completed, I will take all new photos with a tripod and real camera.


I like it. 

Did you rip up the carpet that was there and replace it with the black or is that sitting on top of the old carpet?


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> I like it.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you rip up the carpet that was there and replace it with the black or is that sitting on top of the old carpet?




The carpet company cutout the old carpet and put this in its place. Putting this on top of the old would have made the stability of the speakers problematic .. and would have been a serious tripping hazard!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

In every photo I take with any camera, the black GOM looks more black than the carpet. But when I stand right over the GOM laying on the carpet, the carpet is more black.

Conclusion: Don't believe what u c in any photo


----------



## audioguy

Newest addition to the theater. 

These are Seaton F18's all driven by a single 4000 watt amp. There are 4 more in the front, two in each corner, also driven by a 4000 watt amp. Even with full frequency sweeps, I was hitting 125dB with no breakup-- which is obscene. I have measured peaks above that previously when viewing real content. Playing a frequency sweep that loud is very LOUD !!! Very!!!

Naked:










Clothed:


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> The carpet company cutout the old carpet and put this in its place. Putting this on top of the old would have made the stability of the speakers problematic .. and would have been a serious tripping hazard!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





audioguy said:


> Newest addition to the theater.
> 
> These are Seaton F18's all driven by a single 4000 watt amp. There are 4 more in the front, two in each corner, also driven by a 4000 watt amp. Even with full frequency sweeps, I was hitting 125dB with no breakup-- which is obscene. I have measured peaks above that previously when viewing real content. Playing a frequency sweep that loud is very LOUD !!! Very!!!
> 
> Naked:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clothed:


Everything turned out GREAT!

I didn't even think about the stability of your speakers, so that makes sense. My wife has given me the okay to do what you did, but I will have to place it on top of the existing carpet like my area rugs are. Not a big deal for me since I don't have my speakers in the open. Since we are thinking resale of the house, she didn't want to mess up the carpet. 

Your sub additions must be insane for sure and I love how you were able to hide them in the back like that. The next time I am going to be within a few hours of your place, I will reach to you because I would love to see and hear this room in person. 

Well done..


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> Everything turned out GREAT!
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't even think about the stability of your speakers, so that makes sense. My wife has given me the okay to do what you did, but I will have to place it on top of the existing carpet like my area rugs are. Not a big deal for me since I don't have my speakers in the open. Since we are thinking resale of the house, she didn't want to mess up the carpet.
> 
> 
> 
> Your sub additions must be insane for sure and I love how you were able to hide them in the back like that. The next time I am going to be within a few hours of your place, I will reach to you because I would love to see and hear this room in person.
> 
> 
> 
> Well done..




Thanks. And I agree with your wife. Which made me decide I am a moron for having the old carpet piece trashed - instead of keeping it for resale!

And u r welcome any time!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hometheatergeek

Wow dude this is quite the transformation. :eeksurprise: Seriously???? 10 18" subs? You are insane :bows to the master: and I'm now dying to make the two hour trip to your place. Unfortunately we are way too busy at work for me to take off time until maybe September. But you should be all dialed in by then.  Is Mark S assisting with the integration? Or are you still using Dirac Live?


----------



## audioguy

hometheatergeek said:


> Wow dude this is quite the transformation. :eeksurprise: Seriously???? 10 18" subs? You are insane :bows to the master: and I'm now dying to make the two hour trip to your place. Unfortunately we are way too busy at work for me to take off time until maybe September. But you should be all dialed in by then.  Is Mark S assisting with the integration? Or are you still using Dirac Live?




Thanks. I like the new look a lot better - as does my bride. It is ONLY 8 18's !! And I am insane!! 

Actually today I am doing a full room recalibration given so many room changes. I use both PEQ and Dirac in the RS20i. I'm assuming I won't need Mark given the front and rear subs are of the exact same type and quantity. Previously I had different output and different sonic signature so getting it to sound what my ears (and finicky nature) demanded was never achieved. Which is the only reason I made the switch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

I have done some calibration options with the 8 subs, and making great progress. Have watched a couple of movies, the most recent being Furious 8 (DTS:X). It sure appears to me that DTS is much more aggressive in their use of the height channels than is Dolby and I like it much better. And each time I listen to a movie now, I am so taken by how good the RS20i is. Stupid expensive but an outstanding processor.

I have not reached the "best bass in my room" stage yet, but getting very close. Since I made a few minor (but important) acoustic changes in my room, I will need to re-calibrate everything but the ceiling speakers as they are getting replaced in 2 to 3 weeks. The acoustic changes I made were to add absorption on each side of the side surround speakers. One side already was treated but the other was not. My surrounds are called "In Room" as opposed to "In wall" and I am assuming that the In-Wall version are tune to deal with the wall on either side of them where I assume the in-room does not.


----------



## torii

any rew measurments??? looks very nice.


----------



## audioguy

torii said:


> any rew measurments??? looks very nice.


Thank you.

I use OmniMic but have not saved any measurements as I knew I would be doing them all over again. Maybe this weekend.


----------



## audioguy

Some new photos posted in first post!


----------



## craig john

> Some new photos posted in first post!





audioguy said:


> Given my age and how long I listened to JUST 2 channels, the transition took a while, but now there is no going back - thanks, in part, to CraigJohn, my RS20i and now DTS Neural:X.


Hi Chuck,

I am truly honored and humbled to be mentioned in such a way in your thread. Your theater just keeps getting better and BETTER! I'm just going to have to get down there again to *experience* it for myself. 

I probably shouldn't ask this, but is there any way to get tickets to the Falcons/Packers game? It's the Sunday Night Game on Sunday, September 17th. It's also the first home game for the Falcons in their new stadium, so I would expect a tough time, (read $$$), to get tickets. Plus, I probably shouldn't go because every time I see the Pack at a stadium other than Lambeau, they always lose, so I shouldn't jinx them like this... but it would be a great way to kill 2 birds with one stone... and it would be GREAT to see you again!  Can you look into whether we can get tickets and let me know? 

In the meantime, keep enjoying that incredible theater!

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> I am truly honored and humbled to be mentioned in such a way in your thread. Your theater just keeps getting better and BETTER! I'm just going to have to get down there again to *experience* it for myself.


What an incredibly nice surprise to see a post from you. I had sent a couple of texts and emails and had not heard. Thanks for the kind words. I'm still trying to get the 8 F18's to sound as good as the 4 SubMersives. Not there yet. Big fan of DTS:X and DTS:Neural:X (or whatever it's called).



> I probably shouldn't ask this, but is there any way to get tickets to the Falcons/Packers game? It's the Sunday Night Game on Sunday, September 17th. It's also the first home game for the Falcons in their new stadium, so I would expect a tough time, (read $$$), to get tickets. Plus, I probably shouldn't go because every time I see the Pack at a stadium other than Lambeau, they always lose, so I shouldn't jinx them like this... but it would be a great way to kill 2 birds with one stone... and it would be GREAT to see you again!  Can you look into whether we can get tickets and let me know?


I will send a PM or email.



> In the meantime, keep enjoying that incredible theater!
> 
> Craig


Thanks. This is actually the first time in a very long time where some major theater project hasn't taken me away from actually watching movies/listening to music The only thing left to do in the room is replace my on-ceiling speakers with in-ceiling speakers.


----------



## IndySSD

audioguy said:


> Update as of June 13, 2017: We have now, after 4 years , given a name to our theater ..*"The Abyss".*
> 
> *EDIT as of July 17, 2017*: After looking at the posted photos of the completed room, the name Abyss does not really work. Abyss would, to me, imply a black hole and this room is anything but. Gray columns, mostly gray carpet, and mostly dark gray ceiling. So, we will just leave it as "Our Theater".
> 
> Why? We have turned it into a pseudo black hole (but not exactly). This project is all a result of the thread on blackening the room (and an attempt to make the room look less like a recording studio and more like a theater) and at first I was skeptical but tried a few things and it really made a difference. I don't know how to do anything part way .... so I'm not.
> 
> The first 5 feet of the ceiling is covered in black velvet. Under the front soffit is covered in black velvet. All wall surfaces/doors are covered in black GOM. The four columns are covered in gray GOM. The first 8.5 feet of carpet was replaced by very (or not so very when compared to black velvet) black carpet.
> 
> A part of the differences you see in the following photos is the switch (in the first photo) from incandescent 2700K bulbs to 5000K LED bulbs in the "AFTER" photo. And FWIW, the colors in the 2nd and following photos are far more representative of what the room actually looks like.
> 
> *BEFORE:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *AFTER:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _____________________________________________________
> 
> The current room dimensions are 22 x 19.3 x 7'11" (8 feet less floor underlayment, pad and carpet). The room was originally a loft but we basically built an entire new room: double dry wall; Green Glue, carpet underlay to reduce sound from creeping into other parts of the house, new doors and door seals and thresholds, sealed all electrical outlets. The room was originally 27 feet long but took off 5 feet to get better acoustic dimensions and to have a place for my equipment and media storage. Also, we needed space for the center channel which is behind the AT screen.
> 
> *VIDEO EQUIPMENT*:JVC RS 500 w/ Powered UH480 Panamorph Anamorphic Lens and sled; Screen Masking System by Carada; Seymour Acoustically Transparent 2:35 120 x 51 inch screen (~1.0 Gain - XD Material);
> 
> *SPEAKERS:* LCR: Triad Platinum LCR's; SUBS: 8 Seaton F18 subs (2 Masters and 6 Slaves driven by 4000 watt amp in each Master -- 2 in each of the front two corners) and (4) Seaton located along the rear wall; Surrounds: Triad Silver In-Room Monitors; (4) "*ON*" ceiling Tannoy Di6 DC heights (Atmos/Auro/DTS:X) --- soon to be (4) RSL C34E's "I*N*" ceiling speakers
> 
> *ELECTRONICS:* Datasat RS20i Surround Processor; APS 2000 Power Conditioner; Emotive XPA-5 driving the 4 ceiling speakers; d-sonic 7 channel amp (800 x 3 and 400 x 4)
> 
> *SOURCES:* Music Vault Diamond Music Server (J River and J Remote for controlling my music server); Kaleidescape Alto Movie Player; Kaleidescape DV700 Disc Server; DirecTV 4K DVR; Amazon 4K Fire TV; Oppo 203 4K Blu Ray Player
> 
> *ACOUSTIC TREATMENT:* Room design and all acoustic treatment by AcousticSolutionsLLC & GIK. First reflections point: GIK q7D diffusors (3 per side); Front wall:all absorption; rear side walls: GIK Bass Traps with Scatter Plates (3 per side); Rear wall: (3) GIK q7D's with (2) GIK Bass Traps with Scatter Plates; Left rear corner: GIK Soffit Traps; Front corners: Custom corner traps; Soffit: DIY soffits traps; Ceiling Cloud: GIK 244 Bass Traps (3). All acoustic treatment is now covered in black GOM.
> 
> *MISCELLANEOUS:* Theater chairs by Berkline;BlueJeans Cables (XLR and Single Ended), HDMI and Speaker Wire; Middle Atlantic Equipment Rack; Control4 System Controller; HD Fury/Integral; Atlona AT-JUNO-451 4K HDMI 4x1 switch; Lighting: All 5000K LED Bulbs
> 
> *LISTENING BIASES:* This room is used for both movies and music. I figured out a long time ago that there is not a 2 channel system capable of recreating a live event in any room - at *any* price. Multi-channel enhancement of 2 channel music, to my ears, is a huge improvement over 2 channel (still not marginally close to a live event). I used to believe that a great home audio system could at least reproduce a 3 piece jazz combo. But then my wonderful bride surprised me for a birthday and hired a 3 piece jazz combo to play in our home. If live music is 100, then the very, very best 2 channel audio system is a 10 - maybe!!! It is that far apart. So I quit the chase toward perfection (and the attendant expense) and decided to focus on fun. (Still ain't cheap - and it is still an addiction interesting hobby!!!). There are few pieces of music that don't sound more "fun" to my ears when expanded to multi-channel. Given my age and how long I listened to JUST 2 channels, the transition took a while, but now there is no going back - thanks, in part, to CraigJohn, my RS20i and now DTS Neural:X.


WoW... this is an actual work of art.

I really like the color scheme and how you changed the lighting to change the "temperature" and feel of the room.

I'm hoping to get a space I can something similar with in our next house, thanks for the inspiration!


----------



## audioguy

IndySSD said:


> WoW... this is an actual work of art.
> 
> I really like the color scheme and how you changed the lighting to change the "temperature" and feel of the room.
> 
> I'm hoping to get a space I can something similar with in our next house, thanks for the inspiration!


Thanks for the very kind words. I got the inspiration for the decor of this room from another AVSer's (much larger) room (Peter M):


----------



## Scott Simonian

Wow!

Just catching up with your updates....

Freakin' fantastic! If your room wasn't awesome before (it was) it is even more awesome now.


----------



## audioguy

Scott Simonian said:


> Wow!
> 
> Just catching up with your updates....
> 
> Freakin' fantastic! If your room wasn't awesome before (it was) it is even more awesome now.


Thank you very much.

Most of the changes in the last few months have been cosmetic. The exception was to create my "walls of bass"  by replacing the two Seaton SubMersives in the back of the room with 4 Seaton F18's to match the 4 up front. No one needs this much bass but at least that is one area where I won't have to ever consider any "upgrades".........for much longer than I will be alive. 

As I have posted more than once, my wife likes it a lot better .... "happy wife; happy life"

Thanks again.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> No one needs this much bass but at least that is one area where I won't have to ever consider any "upgrades".........for much longer than I will be alive.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Until Mark releases some F24s capable of -10Hz (yes, negative ten hertz! lol) at 140db when used in an array of four or more.


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> audioguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one needs this much bass but at least that is one area where I won't have to ever consider any "upgrades".........for much longer than I will be alive.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Until Mark releases some F24s capable of -10Hz (yes, negative ten hertz! lol) at 140db when used in an array of four or more.
> 
> 
> 
> Having been in the room at 125db full frequency sweeps, I don't think so. And at MINUS 10HZ, I believe the Universe implodes !!
Click to expand...


----------



## Ladeback

@audioguy, nice theater. Do you like the cloth seats and how are they holding up? 

Are they Seatcraft? They look really nice.


----------



## audioguy

Ladeback said:


> @audioguy, nice theater. Do you like the cloth seats and how are they holding up?
> 
> Are they Seatcraft? They look really nice.


I do like the cloth seats and we went that way to eliminate reflections from leather. The brand is Berkline. They do have some wear on them but they are 6 years old.


----------



## audioguy

After having now experimented with Auro(Matic) for the expansion of 2 channel audio, it is now my preferred surround expansion format ( 2 channel music only). I tried both the Dolby Up-mixer and DTS:Neural-X. Both of them, while "fun" were very unrealistic, even if I reduced the levels of the surrounds and heights. Auro(Matic) is, on the one hand, far more subtle, but also much easier to live with. It is clear it is only doing 3 things to the audio it extracts to the left and right speakers which ends up in all of the other speakers: (1) adding reverb; (2) reducing the amplitude; and (3) adding delay. I can easily mute all other channels and easily hear what it does. I don't think Auro(Matic) is particularly good for expansion of movie soundtracks but I really do like it for music.


----------



## darthray

*audioguy* 


This sucks, so many of your pictures no longer show-up, I am assuming that you were using Photobucket, and no longer a free hosting site for pictures


This is very sad for Members that want to see your achievement for your Theater.
That said, I also would not pay the price they are asking.


Again very nice room from your previous pictures, more likely when AVS was been the host to be able to post pictures.
I miss those day!
I have not been to upload any Pics since they change, and have a URL as a upload for pictures.


Ray


----------



## audioguy

darthray said:


> *audioguy*
> 
> 
> This sucks, so many of your pictures no longer show-up, I am assuming that you were using Photobucket, and no longer a free hosting site for pictures
> 
> 
> This is very sad for Members that want to see your achievement for your Theater.
> That said, I also would not pay the price they are asking.
> 
> 
> Again very nice room from your previous pictures, more likely when AVS was been the host to be able to post pictures.
> I miss those day!
> I have not been to upload any Pics since they change, and have a URL as a upload for pictures.
> 
> 
> Ray




Thsnks for the kind words and yes I was using Photobucket!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BrolicBeast

Something that may be helpful.....I've been paying the monthly fee for years to eliminate ads from the website (did this because the website was soooo slow), but my photos on AVS and other fora appear to be intact still. I'm thinking that the monthly plan (I think it's a few bucks a month) might also get your photos back, but photobucket might not be pushing it because perhaps their storage costs may have gone up (or ad revenue is down, which is the only way they could offer free hosting to begin with!).

Maybe try it for one month, and see if your photos return? 

Or....maybe they just haven't reached my account yet for disruption. Hoping not. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## carp

Try this, it worked for me - all my avs pictures are back. I don't know for how long though...

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/photobucket-embed-fix/naolkcpnnlofnnghnmfegnfnflicjjgj


----------



## audioguy

carp said:


> Try this, it worked for me - all my avs pictures are back. I don't know for how long though...
> 
> https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/photobucket-embed-fix/naolkcpnnlofnnghnmfegnfnflicjjgj


Thanks. Amazing !! Seems to have gotten 95% of them back. Don't know how? Pure magic!!

Hopefully Photobucket won't find out what is happening.


----------



## darthray

BrolicBeast said:


> Something that may be helpful.....I've been paying the monthly fee for years to eliminate ads from the website (did this because the website was soooo slow), but my photos on AVS and other fora appear to be intact still. I'm thinking that the monthly plan (I think it's a few bucks a month) might also get your photos back, but photobucket might not be pushing it because perhaps their storage costs may have gone up (or ad revenue is down, which is the only way they could offer free hosting to begin with!).
> 
> Maybe try it for one month, and see if your photos return?
> 
> Or....maybe they just haven't reached my account yet for disruption. Hoping not.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro



Can you also post pictures using a URL address, I have not been able to post pictures for years, just a Old fossil when it come to computer stuff, Audio sure, computer a Big ???
If so, I would not mind to pay a few $$ for the service, since my computer is soo slow, and freeze all the time, and keep editing.



Also could you provide a link either through a PM, or back to this post with a quote, this way I can find it


Ray


----------



## audioguy

darthray said:


> Can you also post pictures using a URL address, I have not been able to post pictures for years, just a Old fossil when it come to computer stuff, Audio sure, computer a Big ???
> If so, I would not mind to pay a few $$ for the service, since my computer is soo slow, and freeze all the time, and keep editing.
> 
> 
> 
> Also could you provide a link either through a PM, or back to this post with a quote, this way I can find it
> 
> 
> Ray


Follow the instructions provided by Carp in the above post. You will first need to download the google/chrome browser. I don't know why or how it fixed the issue nor for how long, but it worked.


----------



## COACH2369

How are the new Atmos speakers working out for you?


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> How are the new Atmos speakers working out for you?


Excellent. 

I have no idea how they provide that kind of speaker for such a ridiculously low price. I was VERY skeptical but so far, so good. I had a small local AV company cut the holes and install them as I didn't want to crawl up in the 7000 degree space above the room. Part of the improvement may be from installing them slightly wider than my last ceiling speakers. When I calculated the location last time, I did not take into consideration the physical size of the box and where the actual drivers would be. These are much closer to where I want them last time.

After I got them installed, I tested 2 of them with 2 channel music and they sounded great and clean.

One of my concerns was how well they ACTUALLY performed off axis. The attachment shows the frequency response at the Main Listening Position with 1/12 octave smoothing of the top front right speaker - at about 45 degrees off axis.

The area of increased amplitude between about 100Hz and 250Hz is there for my 4 surrounds as well as all 4 of the RSL speakers and is a direct result of being mounted in a flat surface (boundary/baffle wall effect). The dip just north of 100Hz is in every speaker in the room and I think a function of room height.

Pretty easy to see that reasonable response is available from about 75Hz out. I cross them over at about 100Hz — just to be safe with my hand heavy on the volume button !!


----------



## COACH2369

That is great to hear.

I would like to do something different for my Atmos speakers, mostly change up the location or go to an in-ceiling speaker. Unfortunately the velvet on the ceiling would get messed up and I don't really want to deal with all that for the time being.


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> That is great to hear.
> 
> I would like to do something different for my Atmos speakers, mostly change up the location or go to an in-ceiling speaker. Unfortunately the velvet on the ceiling would get messed up and I don't really want to deal with all that for the time being.


I do understand. I have the same feelings about hiding my left and right speakers. HUGE project and HUGE costs so it won't happen.


----------



## carp

COACH2369 said:


> That is great to hear.
> 
> I would like to do something different for my Atmos speakers, mostly change up the location or go to an in-ceiling speaker. Unfortunately the velvet on the ceiling would get messed up and I don't really want to deal with all that for the time being.


What are you moving to for your LCR? I was going to ask in the for sale thread, but I've received infractions for replying to my own sale thread so I didn't want to be the cause of that.


----------



## audioguy

From a movie perspective, I have made no significant changes in the system for quite some time (see *PS* below) ..... but the addition of a *Bluesound Vault 2* for playing music has been a revelation. I was initially going to purchase another of their products for streaming Tidal, but discovered that this one provided the ability to play my ripped files (I had been playing on my dedicated PC based music server) in addition to streaming music.

The most fun part about this change was Tidal itself. Absolutely love this service. There is so much great music available (and even more awful music) that I get to listen to and never have to buy. Sound quality is most certainly as good as listening to 16/44 CD's. Up-sampling all of this 2 channel music with AuroMatic makes it all the better.

*PS* (rant?): I continue to struggle with getting the bass for action movies like I want it and have heard it. For music, it was a bit easier as I just use the front 4 subs, and getting them integrated with the rest of the system has been fairly straight forward ... and I seldom listen to gun shots and explosions  

For home theater, I have been using 4 (or more) subs for over 15 years and have never had any issues getting more than acceptable (to my exceptionally high standards) bass reproduction. The vast majority of that time it has been using some combination of Seaton subs. My current complaint is (and has been since I sold my Seaton SubMersives about 3 years ago) in the mid/upper bass area, where most of the frequency response is outside of the bandwidth of the subs themselves. (As a reminder, I now have 4 Seaton F18's in the front - split between the left and right corners, and 4 along the center of the rear wall). I have tried so many combinations and permutations of crossover locations, crossover types, high and low pass filter locations and types, channel delays, relative output levels of each group of subs, target curve shapes, etc, that I am running out of patience. If I were to display the frequency response of the subs and LCR's, it is close to as perfect as one could get .... but still misses the mark.

99+% of anyone who would listen to my room would think it sounds phenomenal - and on some sound tracks, it does. I will continue to fight the battle but am again close to calling in help. Mark Seaton would be my first choice but his seeming unavailability makes that a very, very, very slim possibility so that leaves someone like Adam Pelz. 

I just want to watch movies and listen to music and quit fiddling with equipment. And the really frustrating part about all of this is that I have calibrated many other home theaters (mine and clients) and have NEVER had this issue.

(Rant over) ... and Happy New Year !!!


----------



## femi

audioguy said:


> From a movie perspective, I have made no significant changes in the system for quite some time (see *PS* below) ..... but the addition of a *Bluesound Vault 2* for playing music has been a revelation. I was initially going to purchase another of their products for streaming Tidal, but discovered that this one provided the ability to play my ripped files (I had been playing on my dedicated PC based music server) in addition to streaming music.
> 
> The most fun part about this change was Tidal itself. Absolutely love this service. There is so much great music available (and even more awful music) that I get to listen to and never have to buy. Sound quality is most certainly as good as listening to 16/44 CD's. Up-sampling all of this 2 channel music with AuroMatic makes it all the better.
> 
> *PS* (rant?): I continue to struggle with getting the bass for action movies like I want it and have heard it. For music, it was a bit easier as I just use the front 4 subs, and getting them integrated with the rest of the system has been fairly straight forward ... and I seldom listen to gun shots and explosions
> 
> For home theater, I have been using 4 (or more) subs for over 15 years and have never had any issues getting more than acceptable (to my exceptionally high standards) bass reproduction. The vast majority of that time it has been using some combination of Seaton subs. My current complaint is (and has been since I sold my Seaton SubMersives about 3 years ago) in the mid/upper bass area, where most of the frequency response is outside of the bandwidth of the subs themselves. (As a reminder, I now have 4 Seaton F18's in the front - split between the left and right corners, and 4 along the center of the rear wall). I have tried so many combinations and permutations of crossover locations, crossover types, high and low pass filter locations and types, channel delays, relative output levels of each group of subs, target curve shapes, etc, that I am running out of patience. If I were to display the frequency response of the subs and LCR's, it is close to as perfect as one could get .... but still misses the mark.
> 
> 99+% of anyone who would listen to my room would think it sounds phenomenal - and on some sound tracks, it does. I will continue to fight the battle but am again close to calling in help. Mark Seaton would be my first choice but his seeming unavailability makes that a very, very, very slim possibility so that leaves someone like Adam Pelz.
> 
> I just want to watch movies and listen to music and quit fiddling with equipment. And the really frustrating part about all of this is that I have calibrated many other home theaters (mine and clients) and have NEVER had this issue.
> 
> (Rant over) ... and Happy New Year !!!


So do you prefer the Seaton SubMersives over your current sub?


Femi


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> I continue to struggle with getting the bass for action movies like I want it and have heard it.
> 
> My current complaint is (and has been since I sold my Seaton SubMersives about 3 years ago) in the mid/upper bass area, where most of the frequency response is outside of the bandwidth of the subs themselves.
> 
> If I were to display the frequency response of the subs and LCR's, it is close to as perfect as one could get .... but still misses the mark.


Chuck -- very frustrating. I remember something similar when I installed BassQ. It solved the uneven bass problem nicely, helped me get smooth response. Then after I removed it and used a different multi-sub tuning process, I had more bass punch. Nothing in the response suggested why. 

Is that the issue your are dealing with -- you want punchier bass, or what exactly is it that's lacking? 

And is it really in the midbass range above the subs? You've done all the manipulations possible with the subs, but just wondering if changing the locations of the L/R speakers might do anything.


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> Chuck -- very frustrating. I remember something similar when I installed BassQ. It solved the uneven bass problem nicely, helped me get smooth response. Then after I removed it and used a different multi-sub tuning process, I had more bass punch. Nothing in the response suggested why.
> 
> Is that the issue your are dealing with -- you want punchier bass, or what exactly is it that's lacking?
> 
> And is it really in the midbass range above the subs? You've done all the manipulations possible with the subs, but just wondering if changing the locations of the L/R speakers might do anything.


Roger: Thanks for checking in. If I just use the four rear subs, I am 95+++++% of the way there. It is getting all 8 subs + mains to play nicely together that is the problem.

What I lack when all 8 subs are playing is the chest impact (room movement?) when collisions, gun fire, punches. I have PLENTY of the stuff south of about ~50Hz - in fact, relative to the stuff north of ~50Hz, too much when all subs are playing. 

I have now got a tentative date for Adam Pelz to come to my rescue. I don't need his typical 2 days of service since every other aspect of my system is very tightly dialed in. Mark Seaton has also contacted me as well.

When this does get resolved, I am probably going to smack myself in the head and say "Of course, why didn't I think of that" ... or not!!

I will be trying one more thing next week and that is to put my miniDSP (the one I recommended to you) back in the system and see if that gets me there. But I'm not hopeful. The ONLY thing different about this sub placement from other rooms I have done (mine or someone else's) is the rear subs are not near a corner. They are spread along the center of the back wall. But it seems to work fine when I JUST use them. 

But, as our Pastor once said, "these are rich people's problems"


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> Roger: Thanks for checking in. If I just use the four rear subs, I am 95+++++% of the way there. It is getting all 8 subs + mains to play nicely together that is the problem.
> 
> What I lack when all 8 subs are playing is the chest impact (room movement?) when collisions, gun fire, punches. I have PLENTY of the stuff south of about ~50Hz - in fact, relative to the stuff north of ~50Hz, too much when all subs are playing.


If the process of evaluating the subs leads to a series of plots, much like Mark did for The Bland *here*, that may prove very instructive for others -- like yours truly.


----------



## audioguy

Some key differences between "The Bland's" theater situation and mine. (1) I ONLY care about the center seat in the only row I have. I have learned that virtually ALL of our friends think the worst seat in the theater is the best they have ever heard. (2) I can't and won't move any of my subs.

That said, whatever graphs and data I get I will be more than happy to post !!


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Some key differences between "The Bland's" theater situation and mine. (1) I ONLY care about the center seat in the only row I have. I have learned that virtually ALL of our friends think the worst seat in the theater is the best they have ever heard. (2) I can't and won't move any of my subs.
> 
> That said, whatever graphs and data I get I will be more than happy to post !!


I think Roger may have hit on your problem. The midbass comes from the speakers, and your Plats are situated well out into your room where they get little room reinforcement. Mine are situated well back into my bass-trapped corners, and I get what a number of other listeners describe as "the best mid-bass they've ever heard." And that's with just 3 SubM's... and much manipulation of the "subwoofer distance tweak" as you know. I suggest you try moving your Plats further back and out to the corners. Do this just to experiment with the mid-bass. If it works, you can either try to optimize the imaging and soundstage from these new positions, or move your speakers back to their previous positions and try some mid-bass boost on your Plats. 

And Happy New Year! (And I hope the Falcons beat the Vikings if they get to meet them in the playoffs!!!) 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> I think Roger may have hit on your problem. The midbass comes from the speakers, and your Plats are situated well out into your room where they get little room reinforcement. Mine are situated well back into my bass-trapped corners, and I get what a number of other listeners describe as "the best mid-bass they've ever heard." And that's with just 3 SubM's... and much manipulation of the "subwoofer distance tweak" as you know. I suggest you try moving your Plats further back and out to the corners. Do this just to experiment with the mid-bass. If it works, you can either try to optimize the imaging and soundstage from these new positions, or move your speakers back to their previous positions and try some mid-bass boost on your Plats.
> 
> And Happy New Year! (And I hope the Falcons beat the Vikings if they get to meet them in the playoffs!!!)
> 
> Craig


Happy New Year to you as well.

*Very, very nice* to hear from you my friend. As for the Falcons getting to meet the Vikings --- the way the Falcons are playing? That would be called a long shot.

Mid Bass: I recognize that the mid-bass comes from the Plats and that is the area I have been focusing on - primarily the crossover. But before I sold the SubMersives, the Plats were actually another 18" into the room from where they are now -- and I had plenty of mid-bass slam. I have recently been trying all kinds of crazy things like creating a "fake" crossover point and then using high and low pass filters (hard to explain in writing and only possible on something like the Datasat). Anyway, all to no avail. The primary purpose of these efforts was to get the smoothest transition between the subs and mains when looking at an FR curve.

Prior to getting measurement software I used a Radio Shack SPL meter and would reverse the leads of, for example, the left front speaker. Then I would run a frequency tone that was the at crossover point (e.g. use an 80Hz tone for an 80Hz crossover) and adjust the delay until I got the largest dip in level - then set the speaker leads back to normal. Using the RS Meter, dips seemed to be easier to see than increases but now that I can use the SPL capability of OmniMic, that is not necessarily the case.

So, that is what I did yesterday: I did the lead-reversal/SPL meter thing. A couple of big surprises. (1) The delays I got doing this exercise were quite different than what I ended up with just looking for the "smoothest transition" (on the order of 4ms different); (2) after using this approach and then looking at the full frequency response, the transition between the subs and mains was actually much better than doing it the other way; and (3) I got a large increase in mid-bass slam.

My next effort (Tuesday after all of the wonderful football games today), will be to focus on the delay and trim setting of all of the subs to try to insure they are all playing nice together. I'm not too much worried about gain setting vs level setting since I have an over abundance of headroom with this much horsepower in the LFE department. 

Anyway, I hope I am onto something but need to get it all figured out early enough so that I can cancel my appointment with Adam Pelz and not screw up his schedule.


----------



## audioguy

femi said:


> So do you prefer the Seaton SubMersives over your current sub?
> 
> 
> Femi


At this point I would have to say yes, even though my current subs are also Seaton (F18's). The SubMersives were every bit as adept at keeping up with the most demanding scenes in any action movie as they were when playing, for example. cello strings in classical music. 

As of today, the F18's do neither as well. While I am comfortable that eventually I will get them to be at least as good or better for movies, I definitely do not have that confidence for music. I hope I am proven wrong.

As I have said more than once, getting rid of the SubMersives was easily the most moronic audio decision I have made in the 40+ years I have been in this addiction hobby.


----------



## audioguy

I have sold my Kaleidescape equipment (Alto and DV700). I chose to use this equipment so I could be "disc-less" once the movies I would ever want to watch were loaded onto the system. It worked perfectly for 1080P but Kaleidescape has a different strategy for 4K/HDR. First, they don't have agreements with all of the studios so if I want to watch a movies they can't provide, I have to use my Oppo - so I am not disc-less --- and there is no guarantee they will ever get all of the studios; Secondly, more times than I find acceptable, when they do release a 4K movie, it does not initially have the most up-to-date audio tracks; Thirdly, too often, their availability is well beyond what the availability is of the shiny disc version. 

I will be using an app that is available on the new 4K Apple TV along with MakeMKV to rip the movies to a NAS. The current ATV does not support Atmos but it will be updated in a future software release. 

This coming week I am having Adam Pelz come and give me some assistance on the best location to place additional speakers to consider the move to 9.X.6 .... or beyond. I would love to hear a room that would have the ability to compare 7.X.4 to 9.X.6 to see if it is all hype or really an impressive upgrade. He will also assist in fine tuning my LFE integration. 

I use to say "does this ever end?". I now know it does not!!!


----------



## Frohlich

It never ends...even when it ends it doesn't end. I have told myself this same thing more than once and then something else just "has" to be upgraded 

Eager to see if you make the move and your before/after thoughts. My room just isn't conducive to adding two more speakers as I am in a basement and it would mean ripping down part of the ceiling. I will live with 4 atmos channels...until I don't


----------



## audioguy

Frohlich said:


> It never ends...even when it ends it doesn't end.


That is a classic truth. So well said 



> Eager to see if you make the move and your before/after thoughts. My room just isn't conducive to adding two more speakers as I am in a basement and it would mean ripping down part of the ceiling. I will live with 4 atmos channels...until I don't


I've been doing a bit of reading on the Trinnov forum and I'm not yet convinced that more channels is at all worth it. I really need to find a place where I can listen to 7.x.4 and then 9.x.6 or higher in the same room with the same material. I'm pretty sure I'm not willing to do the work and spend the money without knowing it will be worth it. I will ask Adam if he knows a place.


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> That is a classic truth. So well said
> 
> I've been doing a bit of reading on the Trinnov forum and I'm not yet convinced that more channels is at all worth it. I really need to find a place where I can listen to 7.x.4 and then 9.x.6 or higher in the same room with the same material. I'm pretty sure I'm not willing to do the work and spend the money without knowing it will be worth it. I will ask Adam if he knows a place.


My Lab. I am currently configured to run up to 13.1.8, and have presets in the Altitude32 starting at 7.1.


----------



## audioguy

appelz said:


> My Lab. I am currently configured to run up to 13.1.8, and have presets in the Altitude32 starting at 7.1.


And what is the temperature where you live? Does it begin with a minus sign?? I might take you up on your offer if I don't have to ski in


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> I would love to hear a room that would have the ability to compare 7.X.4 to 9.X.6 to see if it is all hype or really an impressive upgrade. He will also assist in fine tuning my LFE integration.


Well, you heard a 9.3.0 system a while back at my house. I presume you'll be using Wides for your 8th and 9th speakers. I can't speak to the improvement you can expect from the extra ceiling speakers, but I LOVE my Wides... wouldn't trade them for anything. IMO, they'll add more "immersiveness" than an additional set of ceiling speakers. But what do I know... I don't even have 3D sound... yet!!! 



audioguy said:


> I use to say "does this ever end?". I now know it does not!!!


LOL! Good luck with your upgrades and your search for audiophile bliss. 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Well, you heard a 9.3.0 system a while back at my house. I presume you'll be using Wides for your 8th and ninth speakers. I can't speak to the improvement you can expect from the extra ceiling speakers, but I LOVE my Wides... wouldn't trade them for anything. IMO, they'll add more "immersiveness" than an additional set of ceiling speakers. But what do I know... I don't even have 3D sound... yet!!!
> 
> Craig


In what listening mode do you get wides used?



> LOL! Good luck with your upgrades and your search for audiophile bliss.


Actually, I am very close to audiophile bliss. And it has nothing to do with adding more speakers. My 7.8.4 system has all of the pieces necessary. My lack of "bliss-ness" began when I sold my 4 SubMersives. As you know, I sold them to raise money for some other stuff and installed 4 DIY 18" subs and never could get them to give me the mid-bass slam --- nor any of the other positive attributes the SubMersives provided. I am now at *eight *Seaton F18's and still can't get the bass sound I had. 

After diddling for about a year, I wore out the mic on my OmniMic system. I have tried a bazillion combinations and permutations of settings, high and low pass filters, crossover types, crossover slopes, crossover frequencies, target curve shapes, etc, etc, etc. I still am not there. So I have called Adam Pelz to the rescue. If he can get me the bass sound I had (or close enough), I will be in "audio bliss". If not, maybe I just sell it all and get a Bose surround system.

The additional speakers would be all about the addiction hobby. If I don't make any changes, I will be just fine. And according to what I have read, the additional set of height speakers (in the middle of the two sets I already have) would provide more improvement than the addition of wides. But quite frankly, I would be surprised if the addition of any more speakers could improve the immersive-ness in my room. As you may remember, my left and right speaker are in the room so the distance to my side surrounds is less than it would be if they were behind the screen. That's why I'm not convinced wides will give me that much improvement. So even listening in another room that was not configured like mine may still nor prove anything. 


My newest project is to start ripping many of my movies to a NAS and using this new app on Apple TV to replace my Kaleidescape system.


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> And what is the temperature where you live? Does it begin with a minus sign?? I might take you up on your offer if I don't have to ski in


No no no. No - signs where I live. Been a mild winter so far actually, and unfortunately for the ski resorts. We did get 15" at my house Friday night tho. I usually have 4' or more in my yard by now, but way less than half that right now.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> In what listening mode do you get wides used?


DTS Neo:X, (see below.)


audioguy said:


> Actually, I am very close to audiophile bliss. And it has nothing to do with adding more speakers. My 7.8.4 system has all of the pieces necessary. My lack of "bliss-ness" began when I sold my 4 SubMersives. As you know, I sold them to raise money for some other stuff and installed 4 DIY 18" subs and never could get them to give me the mid-bass slam --- nor any of the other positive attributes the SubMersives provided. I am now at *eight *Seaton F18's and still can't get the bass sound I had.


That great sound you had with the Submersives was also with Audyssey, right? I'm just sayin... 

I'm thinking about the Marantz AVR 8805: http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/P...?CatId=AVSeparates&SubCatId=&ProductId=AV8805 It will do 9.2.4, (or 7.2.6.) Just waiting to see how soon they'll add HDMI 2.1. Then I'll need 4 ceiling speakers, amps, a 4K BDP, a 4K HDR/WCG projector and a new screen. $20K ought to do it.  



audioguy said:


> After diddling for about a year, I wore out the mic on my OmniMic system. I have tried a bazillion combinations and permutations of settings, high and low pass filters, crossover types, crossover slopes, crossover frequencies, target curve shapes, etc, etc, etc. I still am not there. So I have called Adam Pelz to the rescue. If he can get me the bass sound I had (or close enough), I will be in "audio bliss". *If not, maybe I just sell it all and get a Bose surround system.*


LOL! 



audioguy said:


> The additional speakers would be all about the addiction hobby. If I don't make any changes, I will be just fine. And according to what I have read, the additional set of height speakers (in the middle of the two sets I already have) would provide more improvement than the addition of wides. But quite frankly, I would be surprised if the addition of any more speakers could improve the immersive-ness in my room. As you may remember, my left and right speaker are in the room so the distance to my side surrounds is less than it would be if they were behind the screen. That's why I'm not convinced wides will give me that much improvement. So even listening in another room that was not configured like mine may still nor prove anything.


There are 3 major advantages that I find with the Wides and DTS Neo:X:

1. Neo:X redirects all the content that is identical in the L/R channels to the CC. (This works best with Neo:X Cinema than with Neo:X Music.) Instead of depending on the L/R speakers to create a "phantom central image," you instead get a "hard" central image with the CC. While a phantom image can work really well from the central seating position, it collapses for anyone sitting off center. Even when sitting in the central position, I find the hard center speaker to provide a more focused, discreet and solid central image than a phantom image. Instead of voices sounding 4 to 6 ft. wide, they sound focused into a more "normal" size.

2. While leaving the front soundstage intact, Neo:X with Wides, widens the front soundstage further than it could possibly be without the Wides. Neo:X seems to create phantom images between the L speaker and the L Wide, and the R speaker and the R Wide. This really makes the soundstage wider. These phantom images also seems to work pretty well even from the seats immediately to the left and right of the central seat. 

3. Wides fill in the gap between the mains and the surrounds. Without Wides, I frequently hear sounds that appear to "jump" from a main L or R speaker to its' adjacent L or R surround. That is completely gone with the Wides in between those speakers. This is most pronounced with movies, when sounds pan from the fronts to the surrounds.

You may have all those benefits now with your speaker configuration and Trinnov with the DTS or Atmos upmixers. In my system, I'll never be without the Wides because of those advantages. 



audioguy said:


> My newest project is to start ripping many of my movies to a NAS and using this new app on Apple TV to replace my Kaleidescape system.


Have fun with that. My friend @*MIkeDuke* has gone that route and loves it. 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> That great sound you had with the Submersives was also with Audyssey, right? I'm just sayin...


Yes AND with my current Datasat. And the Datasat with Dirac provided much better bass than did the Marantz with Audyssey - but the Marantz/Audyssey was better than my current F18's with Dirac ---- and that, my friend, is my dilemma. 



> I'm thinking about the Marantz AVR 8805: http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/P...?CatId=AVSeparates&SubCatId=&ProductId=AV8805 It will do 9.2.4, (or 7.2.6.) Just waiting to see how soon they'll add HDMI 2.1. Then I'll need 4 ceiling speakers, amps, a 4K BDP, a 4K HDR/WCG projector and a new screen. $20K ought to do it.


That is a bunch of money but in my opinion, the upgrade to 3D audio is the best upgrade (according to me AND my wife) I had ever made in my audio system. 4k/HDR doesn't do much for me. Based upon what I have seen, other than a flat screen with a bazillion Nits (or a $60,000 projector), the improvement of HDR is not very impressive. Just too dark for our price range PJ's. (If you read the forums on that subject, you will quickly see others have opposing views to mine on this matter) So while I can play those movies, I play with with SDR but Wide Color Gamut. I give up no brightness and get most of the benefits of the new technology. You will need a new PJ to do that.




> There are 3 major advantages that I find with the Wides and DTS Neo:X:
> 
> 1. Neo:X redirects all the content that is identical in the L/R channels to the CC. (This works best with Neo:X Cinema than with Neo:X Music.) Instead of depending on the L/R speakers to create a "phantom central image," you instead get a "hard" central image with the CC. While a phantom image can work really well from the central seating position, it collapses for anyone sitting off center. Even when sitting in the central position, I find the hard center speaker to provide a more focused, discreet and solid central image than a phantom image. Instead of voices sounding 4 to 6 ft. wide, they sound focused into a more "normal" size.
> 
> 2. While leaving the front soundstage intact, Neo:X with Wides, widens the front soundstage further than it could possibly be without the Wides. Neo:X seems to create phantom images between the L speaker and the L Wide, and the R speaker and the R Wide. This really makes the soundstage wider. These phantom images also seems to work pretty well even from the seats immediately to the left and right of the central seat.
> 
> 3. Wides fill in the gap between the mains and the surrounds. Without Wides, I frequently hear sounds that appear to "jump" from a main L or R speaker to its' adjacent L or R surround. That is completely gone with the Wides in between those speakers. This is most pronounced with movies, when sounds pan from the fronts to the surrounds.
> 
> You may have all those benefits now with your speaker configuration and Trinnov with the DTS or Atmos upmixers. In my system, I'll never be without the Wides because of those advantages.


You may want to check but I believe there is no DTS Neo-X with the new processors. Mine has DTS: Neural-X. I don't know if it will make use of your wides in the same way. But it does a GREAT job (better than the Dolby up-mixer does in my opinion) of up-converting legacy soundtracks to make use of your 3D speakers. And it may do the same with your wides.

I tried using DTS;Neural-X for listening to music as well as the Dobly upmixer and both were too fake/processed. I have now settled on the Auro upmixer for music and it is awesome. If I use it "out of the box", there is too much bass since it takes the bass from the L/R and puts it in all other speakers (or more accurately, into the LFE channel since all of those speakers are "small"). So, for that input, I tell the system that all speakers but the L+R are full range but put a high pass filter on all of those other speakers. Works perfect and the most enjoyable music I have ever gotten in my room. And with the version of Auro that is on my Datasat, I can alter the amount that goes to the other speakers. Auro, unlike DTS or Dobly, takes whatever is in the L+R channel and then reduces trim, adds delay and adds some very small amount of re-verb so it really tends to do what would occur in a live performance. 



> Have fun with that. My friend @*MIkeDuke* has gone that route and loves it.
> 
> Craig


Having owned the Kaleidescape, it would be hard to give up auto access to the movies I like to watch/re-watch. Ripping them will be a huge pain in the fanny!!


----------



## audioguy

I used the services of Adam Pelz to finally get my 8 subs to be optimized. As far achieving my objectives for improvement, it was a successful investment of my time and money.

Last evening, my wife and I watched (actually I re-watched) Atomic Blonde. Best bass impact I have ever experienced in my theater - or anywhere else for that matter. I also watched for the first time Dunkirk. Wowzer !!

That said, there is still a tiny, tiny bit of muddiness (when compared to my previous SubMersives) in some of the bass. I could be my room or the placement of my rear speakers or the speakers themselves or the fact that he ONLY used PEQ's in my miniDSP and did not re-run Dirac on the subs (which I plan on doing today). But even if I don't get that improved, I am a happy camper.

Secondly, I am probably going to add an additional set of height speakers AND wides. I am hopeful that Datasat will QUICKLY (and I mean *VERY* QUICKLY) have an upgrade to the RS20i to allow a 9.x.6 configuration, but if not, I will get a Trinnov 16. Adam is the main guy (he's probably done 30 or 40 Trinnov installs) so I would have him do the installation/ integration of my Trinnov.

I will be adding another set of the RSL speakers for the ceiling and *THESE* for the wides. They are a match for my side and rear surrounds but with the angled baffle, will allow better response at the MLP, given where I will need to place them.

No. It CLEARLY never ends. NEVER !!!!!!!


----------



## Frohlich

Frohlich said:


> *It never ends...even when it ends it doesn't end.* I have told myself this same thing more than once and then something else just "has" to be upgraded
> 
> Eager to see if you make the move and your before/after thoughts. My room just isn't conducive to adding two more speakers as I am in a basement and it would mean ripping down part of the ceiling. I will live with 4 atmos channels...until I don't





audioguy said:


> I used the services of Adam Pelz to finally get my 8 subs to be optimized. As far achieving my objectives for improvement, it was a successful investment of my time and money.
> 
> Last evening, my wife and I watched (actually I re-watched) Atomic Blonde. Best bass impact I have ever experienced in my theater - or anywhere else for that matter. I also watched for the first time Dunkirk. Wowzer !!
> 
> That said, there is still a tiny, tiny bit of muddiness (when compared to my previous SubMersives) in some of the bass. I could be my room or the placement of my rear speakers or the speakers themselves or the fact that he ONLY used PEQ's in my miniDSP and did not re-run Dirac on the subs (which I plan on doing today). But even if I don't get that improved, I am a happy camper.
> 
> Secondly, I am probably going to add an additional set of height speakers AND wides. I am hopeful that Datasat will QUICKLY (and I mean *VERY* QUICKLY) have an upgrade to the RS20i to allow a 9.x.6 configuration, but if not, I will get a Trinnov 16. Adam is the main guy (he's probably done 30 or 40 Trinnov installs) so I would have him do the installation/ integration of my Trinnov.
> 
> I will be adding another set of the RSL speakers for the ceiling and *THESE* for the wides. They are a match for my side and rear surrounds but with the angled baffle, will allow better response at the MLP, given where I will need to place them.
> *
> No. It CLEARLY never ends. NEVER !!!!!!!*


Great minds think alike...so that is great minds and the two of us 

Great news on the sub performance. Sounds like you made a great investment with having Adam coming over.


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> I used the services of Adam Pelz to finally get my 8 subs to be optimized.


Was there an "ah ha" aspect of this for you? You tried several tuning passes -- what did Adam do that you had not tried?


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> Was there an "ah ha" aspect of this for you? You tried several tuning passes -- what did Adam do that you had not tried?


Roger, that is a great question. When he comes to your home to do a calibration, he walks in with something north of $30,000 worth of test gear (versus my $300 OmniMic ). Because I told him I was a "selfish" listener, he did all of his measurements very clustered around the MLP. I only have one local friend who would recognize the performance difference at the MLP vs any other seat in the room, so that is why I am a "selfish" listener. And I still use my room for music, unlike most others who have a HT, so the MLP is more critical. 

So thing *Number One* that he did was to place *4 mics* around the MLP versus my ONE mic at dead center of the MLP. In my room, he had two about a foot either side of the MLP and two more about a foot behind those. Those go into some kind of mux and I don't know if he weights them or not but used some kind of averaging. And then he uses the miniDSP that I have (the same as I recommended to you) and "manually" adjusts the PEQ's to get a "flat" response. Because I like a small bit of "room rumble" (my room is on the 2nd floor) we put in a low shelf filter from about 35Hz). I mean "manually" as opposed to using the abilities of REW or OmniMic to have them determine the settings for the PEQs. As far as setting the PEQ's I have done it "manually" and with the help of OmniMic. The final results he got were pretty much what I get (only based on measurements). A note: When the next day I measured in ONLY the dead center of the room, there was a slight bump in the response around 50 Hz (if I recall) that I chose to take out with a remaining PEQ position. Of course I put my adjustment in one of the settings and kept his settings where they were. 

Thing *Number Two* was that he did was to NOT take into account the distance differences between my front and rear subs. I have messed around doing that but the I never did like the measured response I got doing so, so always ended up setting the time delay (about 2.5 ms).

Thing* Number Three*: He also recommend some target curve changes. I have been playing around with my interpretation of the Harmon Target (see attached) and he recommended some subtle changes to my implementation of it.

But here is the rub: I could post a picture of the LFE response he got compared to the response I got (measured with OmniMic) before he showed up, and there is absolutely nothing that could even give a hint of why my bass now has all of the slam I could want and that I could not get after well over a year of trying. 

So the short answer to your question (what was the "ah ha moment"?) came the next day when I watched two movies. Bass slam like I have never experienced. Even my wife noticed. I also did some measurements (just for grins) to see how much LFE output I could get prior to things in the response coming unglued. At 120 db response (I was in the room) I quit turning up the volume. In other words, it was the highest I had ever achieved. My guess would be that I could get over 125dB of clean bass output using sweeps which places MUCH higher demand than any movie even at the ear crushing levels I have been known to listen at (on rare occasion). 

Adam has degrees in math an physics and close to 30 years of experience doing this. I have no doubt that somewhere in his time in my home he applied some "Pelz Secret Sauce" for him to get what I could not get. 

Not related to my specific issue, he confirmed (but with an explanation in math - my degree also) why a sub in each corner of the room is almost always the best solution. When I was deciding where to place my rear subs, I could have put three of them stacked in a rear corner (only one corner is available) or placed them as I did along the rear wall. The FR measured differences in the two locations was not huge so I decided that aesthetically the position on the rear wall allowed my OCD instincts to be satisfied with a symmetric room. BAD idea. As we ALL know, hindsight is 20/20. Since he will be returning in a month or so to calibrate my yet-to-be-ordered Trinnov, I may consider moving the rear subs to that corner. I would have to rebuild a bunch of panels that I would use to hide them but I may consider it. As an aside, prior to installing the Seaton F18s in the rear of the room, I had always gotten my best sound when the two SubMersives were stacked in the corner

As an aside, we never did re-run Dirac so what we were measuring and listening to was 'just" the PEQ adjustments. The next day I did run Dirac and the measured output was similar to (but not as good as) the output with only the PEQs. In comparative listening, I preferred the PEQ only settings. When I run out of things to do, I may re-run Dirac and place the mic much closer to the MLP and see what that response looks like.

Adam has a well deserved outstanding reputation in this aspect of the business. He is very bright, has the appropriate formal education for what he does, absolutely loves what he does and is obsessive about it - and a really nice guy to boot. He is not inexpensive but if you have a high end home theater processor and want to extract everything possible out of all of the equipment in your room, I HIGHLY recommend his services. Highly!! And I also learned he does video calibration as well !!!!


----------



## Roger Dressler

^Thanks, Chuck, for the expansive reply. Much appreciated.

So many of the issues you dealt with are common to mine, it gives me renewed impetus to try some other things. One thing I'd really like to try is a stack of Seatons, but that will have to wait. In the meantime, exploring the slam issue can be done with the 4 subs on hand. 

Based on your info, when it comes to slam, there's more than just frequency response at work. I also found that out when I first used the Bass-Q unit some years ago, which did a remarkable job of addressing what I thought were impossible room modes, but in later configurations without it I was able to trade off a degree of optimization in the rear row for better slam in the front. That may be happening in this room, too, as I have 3 ms delay on the rear subs to help the rear response, which did not appear to harm the front response, but maybe it took a toll in the slam department. 

Great food for thought!


----------



## audioguy

I might add the my measured response looks not much alike to the image I posted above of the Harmon Target curve!!


----------



## audioguy

My new Triad "wide" speakers have arrived at the HT store *(THESE)* and my two new ATI amps *(THESE)* should be there in about a week and still waiting to hear on my Trinnov Altitude16. The additional RSL ceiling speakers are installed *(THESE)*.

Each time I think about the speakers I will have in my final speaker configuration, I am taken back by the "mix" of high end Triads and Seaton Subs .... and then the ceiling speakers. And the 6 ceiling RSL speakers represent about *1.5%* of the total speaker cost --- and they work perfectly. I can't say enough good things about them. I first wanted to use *THESE* from Triad after I saw them at a CEDIA 18 months ago but Triad kept missing their availability dates so I gave up and went with the RSL's. Not sorry I did and saved about $4000 in the process!!!

I have been ripping my movies to a NAS and in the process, watching quite a few. I am blown away by how good my system sounds since Adam Pelz was here. I sure do hope this addition of 4 more speakers and the Trinnov is a serious upgrade in sound envelopment but I won't be surprised if it is not. The Datasat RS20i is that good. In fact, its incredible envelopment was the first thing I noticed when I had an RS20i loaner in my room 4 years ago.

We shall see!


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> My new Triad "wide" speakers have arrived at the HT store *(THESE)* and my two new ATI amps *(THESE)* should be there in about a week and still waiting to hear on my Trinnov Altitude16. The additional RSL ceiling speakers are installed *(THESE)*.
> 
> Each time I think about the speakers  I will have in my final speaker configuration, I am taken back by the "mix" of high end Triads and Seaton Subs .... and then the ceiling speakers. And the 6 ceiling RSL speakers represent about *1.5%* of the total speaker cost --- and they work perfectly. I can't say enough good things about them. I first wanted to use *THESE* from Triad after I saw them at a CEDIA 18 months ago but Triad kept missing their availability dates so I gave up and went with the RSL's. Not sorry I did and saved about $4000 in the process!!!
> 
> I have been ripping my movies to a NAS and in the process, watching quite a few. I am blown away by how good my system sounds since Adam Pelz was here. I sure do hope this addition of 4 more speakers and the Trinnov is a serious upgrade in sound envelopment but I won't be surprised if it is not. The Datasat RS20i is that good. In fact, its incredible envelopment was the first thing I noticed when I had an RS20i loaner in my room 4 years ago.
> 
> We shall see!


I know I have said this before....but I need to get down for a demo. After these additional upgrades, I am sure it is going to blow me away.

Those RSL speakers have me extremely intrigued. You have them(along with all your other MUCH more expensive gear) and then Carp has them now. He even has the same side and back surrounds I do. He likes them quite a bit too.


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> I know I have said this before....but I need to get down for a demo. After these additional upgrades, I am sure it is going to blow me away.
> 
> Those RSL speakers have me extremely intrigued. You have them(along with all your other MUCH more expensive gear) and then Carp has them now. He even has the same side and back surrounds I do. He likes them quite a bit too.


I can't explain why the RSLs are great for my height application given their ridiculous price point, but they are. However, since I play sort of loud (he said with a huge grin on his face), I cross them over at 100Hz so that limits any possible damage or massive distortion. I have played just two of them with 2 channel music and they are way more than good enough. They have angled midrange/woofers and aim-able tweeter. 

The ONLY issue is getting the metal/magnetic grills painted to match your ceiling. I purchased one of *THESE*. The trick is (1) REALLY REALLY thin paint (2) don't shake the unit with paint in it (3) don't angle it too much (4) use VERY VERY light multiple coats rotating 90 degrees between coats (5) keep an old hair dryer with you so that when (not if) some of the holes get plugged, you use the sprayer IMMEDIATELY to clean them out. (6) REALLY thin paint !

If you do all of that, the results are excellent.


----------



## gwthacker

audioguy said:


> Roger, that is a great question. When he comes to your home to do a calibration, he walks in with something north of $30,000 worth of test gear (versus my $300 OmniMic ). Because I told him I was a "selfish" listener, he did all of his measurements very clustered around the MLP. I only have one local friend who would recognize the performance difference at the MLP vs any other seat in the room, so that is why I am a "selfish" listener. And I still use my room for music, unlike most others who have a HT, so the MLP is more critical.
> 
> So thing *Number One* that he did was to place *4 mics* around the MLP versus my ONE mic at dead center of the MLP. In my room, he had two about a foot either side of the MLP and two more about a foot behind those. Those go into some kind of mux and I don't know if he weights them or not but used some kind of averaging. And then he uses the miniDSP that I have (the same as I recommended to you) and "manually" adjusts the PEQ's to get a "flat" response. Because I like a small bit of "room rumble" (my room is on the 2nd floor) we put in a low shelf filter from about 35Hz). I mean "manually" as opposed to using the abilities of REW or OmniMic to have them determine the settings for the PEQs. As far as setting the PEQ's I have done it "manually" and with the help of OmniMic. The final results he got were pretty much what I get (only based on measurements). A note: When the next day I measured in ONLY the dead center of the room, there was a slight bump in the response around 50 Hz (if I recall) that I chose to take out with a remaining PEQ position. Of course I put my adjustment in one of the settings and kept his settings where they were.
> 
> Thing *Number Two* was that he did was to NOT take into account the distance differences between my front and rear subs. I have messed around doing that but the I never did like the measured response I got doing so, so always ended up setting the time delay (about 2.5 ms).
> 
> Thing* Number Three*: He also recommend some target curve changes. I have been playing around with my interpretation of the Harmon Target (see attached) and he recommended some subtle changes to my implementation of it.
> 
> But here is the rub: I could post a picture of the LFE response he got  compared to the response I got (measured with OmniMic) before he showed up, and there is absolutely nothing that could even give a hint of why my bass now has all of the slam I could want and that I could not get after well over a year of trying.
> 
> So the short answer to your question (what was the "ah ha moment"?) came the next day when I watched two movies. Bass slam like I have never experienced. Even my wife noticed. I also did some measurements (just for grins) to see how much LFE output I could get prior to things in the response coming unglued. At 120 db response (I was in the room) I quit turning up the volume. In other words, it was the highest I had ever achieved. My guess would be that I could get over 125dB of clean bass output using sweeps which places MUCH higher demand than any movie even at the ear crushing levels I have been known to listen at (on rare occasion).
> 
> Adam has degrees in math an physics and close to 30 years of experience doing this. I have no doubt that somewhere in his time in my home he applied some "Pelz Secret Sauce" for him to get what I could not get.
> 
> Not related to my specific issue, he confirmed (but with an explanation in math - my degree also) why a sub in each corner of the room is almost always the best solution. When I was deciding where to place my rear subs, I could have put three of them stacked in a rear corner (only one corner is available) or placed them as I did along the rear wall. The FR measured differences in the two locations was not huge so I decided that aesthetically the position on the rear wall allowed my OCD instincts to be satisfied with a symmetric room. BAD idea. As we ALL know, hindsight is 20/20. Since he will be returning in a month or so to calibrate my yet-to-be-ordered Trinnov, I may consider moving the rear subs to that corner. I would have to rebuild a bunch of panels that I would use to hide them but I may consider it. As an aside, prior to installing the Seaton F18s in the rear of the room, I had always gotten my best sound when the two SubMersives were stacked in the corner
> 
> As an aside, we never did re-run Dirac so what we were measuring and listening to was 'just" the PEQ adjustments. The next day I did run Dirac and the measured output was similar to (but not as good as) the output with only the PEQs. In comparative listening, I preferred the PEQ only settings. When I run out of things to do, I may re-run Dirac and place the mic much closer to the MLP and see what that response looks like.
> 
> Adam has a well deserved outstanding reputation in this aspect of the business. He is very bright, has the appropriate formal education for what he does, absolutely loves what he does and is obsessive about it - and a really nice guy to boot. He is not inexpensive but if you have a high end home theater processor and want to extract everything possible out of all of the equipment in your room, I HIGHLY recommend his services. Highly!! And I also learned he does video calibration as well !!!!




I couldn’t agree more about Adam. Highly recommended! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

gwthacker said:


> I couldn’t agree more about Adam. Highly recommended!


He gets one more test. Actually, that is not accurate. The ACTUAL test will be the Trinnov vs the Datasat. I am waiting for all of my new equipment to arrive (the "wide" speakers are at the dealer, amps are ordered as is the Trinnov) and the ceiling speakers are already installed. Then Adam will return to perform a full blown two day install/calibration. 

*IF* the 7.X.4 ability of the Trinnov compared to the 7.X.4 ability of the Datasat is at least as good, I will be a very happy camper. As I continue to listen to my current system, I absolutely can not imagine it getting better. The immersive-ness/3D nature of the sound, image specificity when appropriate, dynamics, everything is the best home-theater sound I have ever heard in my room. I am a *huge* Datasat RS20i fan. The second best HT experience I have ever had (anywhere) was also with a Datasat RS20i driving Wisdom speakers at a CEDIA show. There was another excellent experience in one of those room (I think it was JBL/Trinnov) but it was much larger and had many bunches of speakers (way more than 9.X.6).

I have no doubt that a properly tuned Trinnov based system with gobs of excellent speakers (not played at ear crushing levels with overly bright speakers like I have heard at CEDIA more than once) has the ability to outperform my 7.X.4 system. What I don't know is how well it will compare with a much more "modest" speaker count.

Are we nuts or what?. Who would have ever imagined, say 10 years ago, that a room with 15 speakers and 8 subs had a "modest" speaker count?


----------



## gwthacker

I’m curious to know whether you’ve measured the bass response of your F18s. You talked about getting great bass slam. Did you or Adam measure the frequency range on the low end? I’m curious because I haven’t found any published data from Mark on the low end range, plus curious about Adams calibration. I have 4 F18s and 4 in wall triad balancing subs. When Adam comes back I’ll see if we can measure mine. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

gwthacker said:


> I’m curious to know whether you’ve measured the bass response of your F18s. You talked about getting great bass slam. Did you or Adam measure the frequency range on the low end? I’m curious because I haven’t found any published data from Mark on the low end range, plus curious about Adams calibration. I have 4 F18s and 4 in wall triad balancing subs. When Adam comes back I’ll see if we can measure mine.


As I clearly discovered when Adam was completed, the slam I was missing was not a function of the shape of my LFE frequency response. I have measured the low end many times. They measure virtually identically to the SubMersives and the DIY Subs I had previously. As you can see, I am almost ruler flat from 100Hz to about 5 db down at about 8 Hz. The measurements I achieved doing the sub calibraton and Adams measurements are virtually identical. If I had to guess (and if I decide I want to invest the time test this hypothesis, I will), I think in addition to whatever "secret sauce" Adam may or may not have employed, the shape of the Mains/LFE target curve plays a large role.










If you want to know how the subs compare, stick your measuring mic about 1" from the center of your sub driver and run a frequency sweep. That gets the room (for all practical purposes) out of the equation. (Make sure you don't over drive the sub and push the center of the cone into the tip of the mic).


----------



## sdrucker

audioguy said:


> He gets one more test. Actually, that is not accurate. The ACTUAL test will be the Trinnov vs the Datasat. I am waiting for all of my new equipment to arrive (the "wide" speakers are at the dealer, amps are ordered as is the Trinnov) and the ceiling speakers are already installed. Then Adam will return to perform a full blown two day install/calibration.
> 
> *IF* the 7.X.4 ability of the Trinnov compared to the 7.X.4 ability of the Datasat is at least as good, I will be a very happy camper. As I continue to listen to my current system, I absolutely can not imagine it getting better. The immersive-ness/3D nature of the sound, image specificity when appropriate, dynamics, everything is the best home-theater sound I have ever heard in my room. I am a *huge* Datasat RS20i fan. The second best HT experience I have ever had (anywhere) was also with a Datasat RS20i driving Wisdom speakers at a CEDIA show. There was another excellent experience in one of those room (I think it was JBL/Trinnov) but it was much larger and had many bunches of speakers (way more than 9.X.6).



Looking forward to reading your experience as it continues. Only comment I'll make is that IMO this is less a "Trinnov vs. Datasat" test of sound as a test of Adam's considerable skill with his toolkit (are you using Q-Sys as well) with possibly some Trinnov Optimizer "icing on the cake" vs. what you were able to do with Datasat + Adam's recent sub tuning. 



> I have no doubt that a properly tuned Trinnov based system with gobs of excellent speakers (not played at ear crushing levels with overly bright speakers like I have heard at CEDIA more than once) has the ability to outperform my 7.X.4 system. What I don't know is how well it will compare with a much more "modest" speaker count.



It's a little convoluted, but you actually COULD do a direct Trinnov vs. Datasat A/B comparison on the Optimizer if you can output the audio from the Datasat to the Trinnov digitally and use the Datasat as a kind of "super source", assuming the same speaker configuration and level/delay compensation. You could set up separate presets on the Altitude and compare a "pure" Dirac result to a result where the Datasat input into the Altitude, which could do all the level/delay management (or maybe on the Q-Sys with different presets?). Listening in 7.1.4 for both systems, where you could keep all variables but the source(s) constant, would be complex but maybe Adam could figure out a methodology to figure out the fine points. EDIT: maybe not do easy as digital input from a Datasat to the A16...

I never got around to doing so, but at one point I was going to pick up a pre/pro where I'd do an Audyssey Pro/XT32 calibration and do a comparison of Audyssey vs. Trinnov with something similar.


----------



## gwthacker

audioguy said:


> As I clearly discovered when Adam was completed, the slam I was missing was not a function of the shape of my LFE frequency response. I have measured the low end many times. They measure virtually identically to the SubMersives and the DIY Subs I had previously. As you can see, I am almost ruler flat from 100Hz to about 5 db down at about 8 Hz. The measurements I achieved doing the sub calibraton and Adams measurements are virtually identical. If I had to guess (and if I decide I want to invest the time test this hypothesis, I will), I think in addition to whatever "secret sauce" Adam may or may not have employed, the shape of the Mains/LFE target curve plays a large role.
> ).



Thanks! Did you or Adam ever measure distortion on the subs? I’m a newbie on this stuff and couldn’t find data. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

sdrucker said:


> Looking forward to reading your experience as it continues. Only comment I'll make is that IMO this is less a "Trinnov vs. Datasat" test of sound as a test of Adam's considerable skill with his toolkit (are you using Q-Sys as well) with possibly some Trinnov Optimizer "icing on the cake" vs. what you were able to do with Datasat + Adam's recent sub tuning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a little convoluted, but you actually COULD do a direct Trinnov vs. Datasat A/B comparison on the Optimizer if you can output the audio from the Datasat to the Trinnov digitally and use the Datasat as a kind of "super source", assuming the same speaker configuration and level/delay compensation. You could set up separate presets on the Altitude and compare a "pure" Dirac result to a result where the Datasat input into the Altitude, which could do all the level/delay management (or maybe on the Q-Sys with different presets?). Listening in 7.1.4 for both systems, where you could keep all variables but the source(s) constant, would be complex but maybe Adam could figure out a methodology to figure out the fine points. EDIT: maybe not do easy as digital input from a Datasat to the A16...
> 
> I never got around to doing so, but at one point I was going to pick up a pre/pro where I'd do an Audyssey Pro/XT32 calibration and do a comparison of Audyssey vs. Trinnov with something similar.


About 4 years ago, I actually did setup a blind comparison (see *here* if interested but all of the photos are gone, thanks to photo bucket).

I built an XLR switch box (for 7.1) and had the RS20i and my SSP at the time connected. The two processors went into the box (which I still have) and it was connected to my amps. Levels were perfectly matched and we did it blind. Results: Without room correction, really tough to consistently tell the difference. With room correction (Audyssey Pro vs Dirac), it was a no brainer. Actually not even close.


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> built an XLR switch box (for 7.1) and had the RS20i and my SSP at the time connected. The two processors went into the box (which I still have) and it was connected to my amps. Levels were perfectly matched and we did it blind. Results: Without room correction, really tough to consistently tell the difference. With room correction (Audyssey Pro vs Dirac), it was a no brainer. Actually not even close.


Your results mirror my experience. That raises a question I have not had the ability to fully resolve. What aspect of the correction makes the results so obvious? 

Is it the general shape of the correction curve? (Do the electrical curves look significantly different?)
Is it the fine grain details of the correction applied?
Is it the nature of the filterbank implementation -- IIR, FIR, hybrid. Or sample rate, bit depth?

If the electrical EQ curves look very much the same (say, when smoothed to 1/6 octave), no further tests need be done. But if they look different, is that the reason they sound different? I know that has at least been a factor here, but I do not have the ability to fully eliminate it as a factor using my simple 5-band PEQ.

Let's say we electrically measured the EQ produced by Audyssey -- and smoothed it to 1/6 octave. Then used the target curve editor in Dirac to replicate that result as close as possible. Do they still sound so obviously different? 

Just something I've wondered about.


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> Your results mirror my experience. That raises a question I have not had the ability to fully resolve. What aspect of the correction makes the results so obvious?
> 
> Is it the general shape of the correction curve? (Do the electrical curves look significantly different?)
> Is it the fine grain details of the correction applied?
> Is it the nature of the filterbank implementation -- IIR, FIR, hybrid. Or sample rate, bit depth?
> 
> If the electrical EQ curves look very much the same (say, when smoothed to 1/6 octave), no further tests need be done. But if they look different, is that the reason they sound different? I know that has at least been a factor here, but I do not have the ability to fully eliminate it as a factor using my simple 5-band PEQ.
> 
> Let's say we electrically measured the EQ produced by Audyssey -- and smoothed it to 1/6 octave. Then used the target curve editor in Dirac to replicate that result as close as possible. Do they still sound so obviously different?
> 
> Just something I've wondered about.


I'm not sure it is easily measurable. There were two very obvious instantly audible differences: (1) the bass and (2) envelopment. The bass differences might well have been measurable but not so sure what you would look at to see why envelopment was so much better. In fact, it is one of the things I *still* notice when I watch movies. So much better than anything I have ever heard - sound everywhere but not anything you can specifically point to. The only conclusion that comes to mind is the different approaches that Dirac vs Audyssey utilize to perform the correction. All I remember was the first "ah ha" when we did the A/B was the sense of envelopment. Very different and very much in favor of Dirac.

Given my last two years of diddling with subs and measurements and target curves and a myriad of other variables, there is no telling what caused the improvement in bass.


----------



## genesis_avs

Are you able to A/B the pre/post Adam Pelz calibration?


----------



## audioguy

genesis_avs said:


> Are you able to A/B the pre/post Adam Pelz calibration?


Are you referring to the work he has already done? The answer is yes. The Datasat RS20i has 10 slots for filters. One of them contains the pre-Adam filters and one of the 10 other contains the post-Adam filters. Switch between them and the differences are easily audible.

For the upcoming work, it will be comparing my existing RS20i and the Trinnov Altitude. I have an A/B box that will allow me to compare those as well. I will also have the more important ability to compare 7.X.4 to 9.X.6. THAT is the comparison that will be more important to me!!


----------



## audioguy

My Trinnov should be here by the first of next week .... but I won't be. The amps should be here as well. So it will be fun gluing all of this stuff together and see what I have. My ceiling speakers are installed and the "wides" are here but not installed (a 10 minute job).

Given what I have been reading on the Trinnov thread about the very limited use of "wides" I may be better off installing what would be wides as the very forward most height speakers (they would be almost on top of my L +R) and forget wides. One of the posters on that thread (@blazar) suggests that 10 heights is optimum (I will only be able to "cram" 8 in if I were to go that direction). His recommendation for channel priority follows. You see how unimportant he thinks "wides" are!!



> (1) 2 Stereo mains
> (2) 1 center
> (3) 2 side surrounds (the ones directly to the left and right)
> (4) 4 ceiling speakers
> (5) 2 rear side surrounds (these are obviously more important without atmos but with atmos I think the ceiling makes a bigger effect)
> (6) 6 more ceiling speakers (making 10 heights) and 2 more behind-the-screen speakers (these go between the Center and L/R)
> (7) 2 surround wide speakers (i think the benefit of these depends on the specific content and also the type of mains you have). I thought these were much more useful when DTS had its 11 channel matrix mode. With atmos, the ceiling speakers and whatnot have so much more going on that the wides become less noticeable to me).
> (8) 2 rear wall speakers (just because the channels are available)


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Not related to my specific issue, he confirmed (but with an explanation in math - my degree also) why a sub in each corner of the room is almost always the best solution. When I was deciding where to place my rear subs, I could have put three of them stacked in a rear corner (only one corner is available) or placed them as I did along the rear wall. The FR measured differences in the two locations was not huge so I decided that aesthetically the position on the rear wall allowed my OCD instincts to be satisfied with a symmetric room. BAD idea. As we ALL know, hindsight is 20/20. Since he will be returning in a month or so to calibrate my yet-to-be-ordered Trinnov, I may consider moving the rear subs to that corner. I would have to rebuild a bunch of panels that I would use to hide them but I may consider it. As an aside, prior to installing the Seaton F18s in the rear of the room, I had always gotten my best sound when the two SubMersives were stacked in the corner


Chuck! I don’t remember if I posted this publicly, but I also had subs along the rear wall. Moving the subs to the rear corners improved the experience dramatically. Playing catch up on your thread...this is one of my favorites! 






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## genesis_avs

audioguy said:


> I will also have the more important ability to compare 7.X.4 to 9.X.6. THAT is the comparison that will be more important to me!!


Sounds like fun. I have heard a comparison of the Dolby Atmos Amaze clip using 7.x.x VS. 9.x.x and noticed an improvement. Having Mr. Pelz there should be an extra bonus. Wish I could be a fly on the wall (or actually, the MLP).


----------



## audioguy

After now having played with MakeMKV, AppleTV and Infuse (ATV Movie Player app) for a while, I am so glad I left the Kaleidescape system (even at the huge loss I took selling it and having to re-purchase the movies I bought from the K store). The ONLY issue is the initial time and effort it takes to rip your movie collection, but once that is completed, ripping a new movies is very quick (about 30 minutes for a BR and twice that long for a UHD movie). While the overall feel is most certainly not that of the Kaleidescape, it is way more than functional. The only thing I really miss is the "scenes" function from Kaleidescape where you can bookmark scenes or use those that come when you download the movies. At the moment, AppleTV does not support Atmos or DTS:X but that is rumored to be an eventuality. Plus there are other companies who are working on players with the necessary software. 

As an aside, and OT, I was thinking about the cost of mass storage. My first Mac computer (1984) did not have a hard drive but a 3rd party sold one. 10 *megs* for about $1800. For my NAS, and for the same amount of money, I purchased 32 *TB* of memory, or 3.2 million times more. How bizarre is that?????


----------



## audioguy

All of my new gear is in place (2 new ATI amps, new Triad In-ceiling Silvers for use as "wides", another two RSL's to be used as top centers and of course the Trinnov Altitude 16). Adam Pelz will be here Monday morning for 2 days to do his magic and then I will know how much improvement I get for this kind of investment.

In every other theater I have built, or theater "re-do" I have done or processor I have changed to, I have done all of the studying, learning, calibrating, measuring, etc with some occasional outside help. This time, I have chosen to, at least up front, do almost none of it. After diddling with the Altitude and reading the Trinnov forum, I am confident I would eventually work my way through the process and learn to do it well enough to get great sound. But, I also know that the way I am built, I would probably not have satisfactory (to me) results for many, many months. And then the diddling/tweaking/etc would go on infinitum.

I have determined over the last 4 years (or even looking much further back) that I seem to easily confuse the process with the objective (building or tweaking or "improving" or "upgrading" vs actually watching movies or listening to music). Time to quit that and use the time I would usually spend (many, many 100's of hours) pursuing other interests - improve my lousy (but fun) golf game; improve my drone based flying and photography skills, spend more time with the grand kids, more volunteering, and, obviously, listening to more music, and watching more movies.
__________________


----------



## TMcG

You know as I read this post I thought about what your system was like when I had visited a short two years ago. Since then you've changed the projector, acoustic treatments, Atmos speakers (different brand + more speakers), all new subs, new preamp, dumped the K-Scape in favor of a new rip system, all new amplification. I think you even changed the room aesthetics with some stretch fabric. It's quite literally like I never heard your current system, because I haven't!

Good luck with the calibration next week!


----------



## audioguy

TMcG said:


> You know as I read this post I thought about what your system was like when I had visited a short two years ago. Since then you've changed the projector, acoustic treatments, Atmos speakers (different brand + more speakers), all new subs, new preamp, dumped the K-Scape in favor of a new rip system, all new amplification. I think you even changed the room aesthetics with some stretch fabric. It's quite literally like I never heard your current system, because I haven't!
> 
> Good luck with the calibration next week!


Thanks for your interesting perspective. Even though I have been here through all of the changes, this one that will be revealed next week could be very signifiant. Almost (or maybe more so) than the change from Seaton active speakers with their built in amps to passive Triad speakers with external amp. After that, the addition of an Atmos capability would rank very high in significant changes. This one could be every bit as profound. New amps (matching no less), new processor, more speakers and maybe even more significant is a highly qualified individual (other than me) doing the work to integrate those changes into one new system. I am so ready to get back to watching movies. So ready!!


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> Adam at work:


Gosh....I hope he has enough mics...


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> Gosh....I hope he has enough mics...


He said he is getting a new device that will allow him to use 8 mics!! Some of us are into subwoofers -- he is (apparently) into measurement microphones !!


----------



## audioguy

Adam has finished Day 1 and the results are encouraging. I listened to a number of cuts of all kinds of music (we have not used any target curves yet other than a very straight flat line from 20Hz to 20K Hz). I listened to some in 2 channel and most using the Auro up-mixer.

Initial thoughts: EVERYTHING is cleaner and tighter. Bass is excellent: texture, tightness, accuracy. Vocals are off the charts awesome. The sound is, not surprisingly, a tad bright given no high end rolloff of any kind. The bass level is a more complex question. Some music seems spot on, some too heavy and some too light. But that is, unfortunately, the problem with recorded music. I will first try the target curve I used on the Datasat (Dirac) with excellent results (a modified version of the Harmon Curve). Then we shall play around.

I'm not at all concerned about getting the music listening settings dialed in as I can experiment with a few target curves (no need to do ANY more measuring) until I hit the sweet spot. I don't need an Adam to do that for me but I will have some kind of listening setup prior to him leaving. 

Stay tuned ... or not!!


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> Adam has finished Day 1 and the results are encouraging.
> 
> Initial thoughts: EVERYTHING is cleaner and tighter. Bass is excellent: texture, tightness, accuracy. Vocal are off the charts awesome.


>Drooling!

So I just want to understand. The Altitude is in the house, right? Is the core effort to entice the automatic room tuning process to work better, or it is bypassing that and using manual PEQ instead? If the former, I thought it would be using the special Trinnov mic. But seems that's not the case.


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> The Altitude is in the house, right?


 Yes


> Is the core effort to entice the automatic room tuning process to work better,


 Yes, but he does a lot of "diddling" after he has set his PEQs and run the Optimizer. He then does lots of listening and makes what appear to be very tiny changes in the target, re-runs Optimzer and starts again ... and again ..... and again. He is probably doing other stuff as well but I am not in there most of the time - or my constant questions would turn this 2 day job into a 2 month job


> or it is bypassing that and using manual PEQ instead?


 No


> If the former, I thought it would be using the special Trinnov mic. But seems that's not the case.


 See enlarged photo below. In the midst of vertical thingies, it would be easy to miss those 4 vertical thingies.










The 4 non Trinnov mics are used to measure for and implement the PEQ filters (plus whatever other "magic" he does)


----------



## BrolicBeast

Will the Trinnov allow You to choose preset by an app of some sort? It's so you can have 3 pre sets: standard, mitigate base, increase base. Could solve all your worries and at the touch of a button, compensate for the recording differences.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Will the Trinnov allow You to choose preset by an app of some sort? It's so you can have 3 pre sets: standard, mitigate base, increase base. Could solve all your worries and at the touch of a button, compensate for the recording differences.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


It has 30 presets selectable via vnc OR you can attach a preset to an input and do it that way. Adam uses 10 of them for his work, some of which will be copied to the ones I will use. We have already created an additional preset for 70's rock. Most of it is recorded with anemic bass. LOTS of flexibility.

I got interrupted writing this as Adam is in the next room doing whatever it is he does and he was playing some clips from the most recent (I think) Atmos demo disc. I had to run in and listen standing up behind him. All I can say is "WOW"! 50 calibre guns are amazing, vocals are *crystal* clear, and at least on these demo clips, the wides and center heights are used quite well. While I have yet to sit in the sweet spot and watch my own selected clips, it appears as though this upgrade was well worth it and am now REALLY glad I made the decision to have Adam do this work instead of me. I am reasonably convinced that the majority of the improvements I am hearing are from whatever he is doing. I can now (maybe) spend some time is the next few weeks deciding if I need to make any fine adjustments in the target curves. Adam has done all of the heavy lifting. 

So for those of you who have a Datasat, Trinnov or equivalent processor, save your money so your next "upgrade" can be hiring him.


----------



## audioguy

I will report more later but after I made some adjustments to the target curves, the Altitude and RS20i sound pretty much alike at 7.X.4. I will listen and experiment more tomorrow. My reaction to the additional 4 channels is, at the moment, some what more tempered. While you can make the wides "used" you can do sort of the same with an RS20i. And both the Trinnov and RS20i do a spectacular job of creating a phantom image where the center heights should be if you only have 4 heights.

One nice surprise (to Adam and me) is that both DVD-A surround music and SACD surround both use the wide channels (appears to be a copy of the surrounds). Sounded great - and lots of fun.

In addition to the Atmos demo disc, I will be hunting for movies that make use of all of of my 15 channels and compare that to a Preset that is 7.X.4.

If I were starting from scratch or if I planned something like 24.X.8, the Trinnov would be my only choice.


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> One nice surprise (to Adam and me) is that both DVD-A surround music and SACD surround both use the wide channels (appears to be a copy of the surrounds). Sounded great - and lots of fun.


I'm thinking it is just an artifact of how I have channels configured in your room, and how the Altitude handles LPCM. Mulled it over on the drive back in to town, and it makes sense to me.


----------



## audioguy

appelz said:


> I'm thinking it is just an artifact of how I have channels configured in your room, and how the Altitude handles LPCM. Mulled it over on the drive back in to town, and it makes sense to me.


Whatever the reason, it still sounds great!!


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> Whatever the reason, it still sounds great!!


It really is an amazing sounding room. I'm inviting anyone in the Atl area to stop by and hear his system.


----------



## audioguy

appelz said:


> *It really is an amazing sounding room*. I'm inviting anyone in the Atl area to stop by and hear his
> 
> system.


Thank you. And yes, if anyone is interested in visiting, let me know - and I'll try not to screw up Adam's work before you get here!!


----------



## sdrucker

One burning question for Adam: that’s a pretty nice mic holder to secure the Trinnov 3D mic. Where can we get that?


----------



## audioguy

sdrucker said:


> One burning question for Adam: that’s a pretty nice mic holder to secure the Trinnov 3D mic. Where can we get that?


I'm not Adam but I made the decision to purchase the mic and the clever holder was in the box with the mic.


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> I'm not Adam but I made the decision to purchase the mic and the clever holder was in the box with the mic.


Yah, mic ships with the shock mount. It is only decent though. All plastic, so doesn't lock position very well.

From experience gained during my concert hall years, I'd bet any microphone shock mount that will hold a Neumann U87 will work. 

And before any one asks/wonders...no measurements were taken with the Altitude mic while the other was positioned directly in front of it.


----------



## sdrucker

appelz said:


> Yah, mic ships with the shock mount. It is only decent though. All plastic, so doesn't lock position very well.


So much for the grass being greener...I don’t think I got the shock mount with my Altitude 32, but that was way back in dog years (in the first 75 units).



> And before any one asks/wonders...no measurements were taken with the Altitude mic while the other was positioned directly in front of it.


ROFL 😜


----------



## appelz

sdrucker said:


> ROFL 😜


I know this forum... tough crowd!


----------



## sdrucker

audioguy said:


> In addition to the Atmos demo disc, I will be hunting for movies that make use of all of of my 15 channels and compare that to a Preset that is 7.X.4.
> 
> If I were starting from scratch or if I planned something like 24.X.8, the Trinnov would be my only choice.


Welcome to the club! As you know from the Trinnov thread, I'm a fan of maximally exploiting the Altitude's flexibility up to the channel/license limit for best enjoyment of 3D audio sound  , but your 9.1.6 is certainly capable of stepping up your room experience. Having an iDevice or other tablet that you can have open to VNC and watching the Input meters on the Altitude's processors may become a hobby of yours as well....and multitasking between the movie and meters can become second nature.

Seriously, I take it you're running wides and top middles in your 9.1.6. So...here's some movies you might want to A/B as 7.1.4 vs. 9.1.6, off the top of my head:

Atmos

Star Trek: Into Darkness
Gravity
Oblivion
Passengers
Kingsman (both movies)
Mad Max: Fury Road
War for the Planet of the Apes
Groundhog Day or Ghostbusters II (seriously!)
Bram Stoker's Dracula
Hans Zimmer: Live in Prague
Unbroken (opening scene in particular)
Hacksaw Ridge
Spider-Man: Homecoming
Westworld: Season 1 (active most to all of the time in the wides)

Our own FilmMixer has a UHD/Atmos release of Fury coming out shortly, which he mixed both theatrically and for the home. I'd get that as well when the time's right.

If you really want something where your speakers are pretty much most to all of the time, you can't beat music:

REM's Automatic for the People
Luca Terulli's Rhapsody - Prometheus (an almost hyperactive object mix IMO)

There's others that have bits and pieces that I'm no doubt forgetting, but that's a quick start.

I'd give you DTS:X, but except for very rare exceptions, all the mixes are effectively channel-based 7.1.4 with a very a tiny number making use of objects. Stick with Atmos for at least native rendering and using the 9.1.6 palette to the utmost, with whatever choices Adam made with arrays and DTS:X and/or Auro content. Don't expect consistent use of the top middles and wides, but when they're in use they're spectacular given thoughtful speaker placement and calibration.


----------



## audioguy

sdrucker said:


> Welcome to the club! As you know from the Trinnov thread, I'm a fan of maximally exploiting the Altitude's flexibility up to the channel/license limit for best enjoyment of 3D audio sound  , but your 9.1.6 is certainly capable of stepping up your room experience. Having an iDevice or other tablet that you can have open to VNC and watching the Input meters on the Altitude's processors may become a hobby of yours as well....and multitasking between the movie and meters can become second nature.
> 
> Seriously, I take it you're running wides and top middles in your 9.1.6. So...here's some movies you might want to A/B as 7.1.4 vs. 9.1.6, off the top of my head:
> 
> Atmos
> 
> *Star Trek: Into Darkness*
> *Gravity*
> *Oblivion*
> *Passengers*
> *Kingsman *(both movies)
> *Mad Max: Fury Road*
> *War for the Planet of the Apes*
> Groundhog Day or Ghostbusters II (seriously!)
> Bram Stoker's Dracula
> Hans Zimmer: Live in Prague
> *Unbroken (opening scene in particular)*
> *Hacksaw Ridge*
> 
> Our own FilmMixer has a UHD/Atmos release of Fury coming out shortly, which he mixed both theatrically and for the home. I'd get that as well when the time's right.
> 
> If you really want something where your speakers are pretty much most to all of the time, you can't beat music:
> 
> *REM's Automatic for the People*
> Luca Terulli's Rhapsody - Prometheus (an almost hyperactive object mix IMO)
> 
> There's others that have bits and pieces that I'm no doubt forgetting, but that's a quick start.
> 
> I'd give you DTS:X, but except for very rare exceptions, all the mixes are effectively channel-based 7.1.4 with a very a tiny number making use of objects. Stick with Atmos for at least native rendering and using the 9.1.6 palette to the utmost, with whatever choices Adam made with arrays and DTS:X and/or Auro content. Don't expect consistent use of the top middles and wides, but when they're in use they're spectacular given thoughtful speaker placement and calibration.


Thanks. I really am hoping that these movies can clearly demonstrate that made a good decision on going to 9.X.6.

I have most of those (see bolded titles) and Adam played the REM disc which caused me to run to my computer and order immediately. Probably the most expensive disc/Concert Video I have ever purchased!! $70!!!!!!! He also played the scene from Unbroken numerous times. THAT sounded stupendous!! 

I will do some listening to those over the next few days. This morning I will be doing some "fine tuning" as it relates to bass/LFE levels and target curve shape. 

I'm not sure @appelz left me a "pure" 7.X.4 Preset and if not, I need to create one.


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> Thanks. I really am hoping that these movies can clearly demonstrate that made a good decision on going to 9.X.6.
> 
> I have most of those (see bolded titles) and Adam played the REM disc which caused me to run to my computer and order immediately. Probably the most expensive disc/Concert Video I have ever purchased!! $70!!!!!!! He also played the scene from Unbroken numerous times. THAT sounded stupendous!!
> 
> I will do some listening to those over the next few days. This morning I will be doing some "fine tuning" as it relates to bass/LFE levels and target curve shape.
> 
> I'm not sure @appelz left me a "pure" 7.X.4 Preset and if not, I need to create one.


Preset 21 is a 7.1.4 Foundation level preset.


----------



## audioguy

appelz said:


> Preset 21 is a 7.1.4 Foundation level preset.


Thanks. 

And thanks again for getting me up and running with my new "toy". I will be interested to see how I feel (9.X.6 vs 7.X.4) after I get to do more listening specifically to sdrucker's recommendations ( and the $4291 BluRay - REM - that I purchased)!!!


----------



## sdrucker

audioguy said:


> Thanks.
> 
> And thanks again for getting me up and running with my new "toy". I will be interested to see how I feel (9.X.6 vs 7.X.4) after I get to do more listening specifically to sdrucker's recommendations ( and the $4291 BluRay - REM - that I purchased)!!!


Have fun...BTW you can also add Spiderman: Homecoming to the Atmos list.


----------



## TMcG

appelz said:


> And before any one asks/wonders...no measurements were taken with the Altitude mic while the other was positioned directly in front of it.





appelz said:


> I know this forum... tough crowd!


Speaking of which....Chuck, I noticed you have two different cup holder trim rings - plastic burlwood and plastic chrome. I thought your theater was pretty nice until I saw this. Completely ruins the entire aesthetic and I can imagine affects your room's performance. What's worse is that you tried to hide this from the AVS community and haven't yet shared a corrective action plan. *Unsubscribed!!!!*


----------



## audioguy

TMcG said:


> [Chuck, I noticed you have two different cup holder trim rings - plastic burlwood and plastic chrome. I thought your theater was pretty nice until I saw this. Completely ruins the entire aesthetic and I can imagine affects your room's performance. What's worse is that you tried to hide this from the AVS community and haven't yet shared a corrective action plan. *Unsubscribed!!!!*


Actually, they are identical. But lighting makes them look different!!


----------



## audioguy

Early evaluation:

With legacy movies and up-converting, the extra channels really don't buy much. But with Atmos, even 9.X.6, the immersivness is far superior to 7.X.4 and worth every penny I spent.

I was *with* Sandra Bullock in space and *with* Tom Cruise in his Oblivion vehicle. And both used Wides - which was pleasant (at least the way Adam set it up).

My room easily sounds better with Atmos than it has ever sounded before. Easily !!!

Thanks Adam Pelz, Trinnov, Atlanta Home Theater, RSL, ATI and Triad!!

Now I need to find a replacement for AppleTV and Infuse since they don't support 3D audio. Which means getting up, going to the equipment room and loading a 3D audio disc - which is why I ripped all of my movies so I would not need to do that !!! Clearly a "rich man's" problem!!!


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Early evaluation:
> 
> 
> 
> With legacy movies and up-converting, the extra channels really don't buy much. But with Atmos, even 9.X.6, the immersivness is far superior to 7.X.4 and worth every penny I spent.
> 
> 
> 
> I was *with* Sandra Bullock in space and *with* Tom Cruise in his Oblivion vehicle. And both used Wides - which was pleasant (at least the way Adam set it up).
> 
> 
> 
> My room easily sounds better with Atmos than it has ever sounded before. Easily !!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Adam Pelz, Trinnov, Atlanta Home Theater, RSL, ATI and Triad!!
> 
> 
> 
> Now I need to find a replacement for AppleTV and Infuse since they don't support 3D audio. Which means getting up, going to the equipment room and loading a 3D audio disc - which is why I ripped all of my movies so I would not need to do that !!! Clearly a "rich man's" problem!!!




Glat your investment in equipment and calibration was completely worth it! Look into Kodi for JRiver..the hard part (ripping) is over...finding a front end and pointing it to your files is the easy part. I enjoy ripped Atmos and DTS:X movies through JRiver all the time. Depending on your prior experience with JRiver, you could try Kodi as well—I’m not sure if it supports immersive audio, but I think it will.

I remember you used to use JRiver for audio-only, right? If you think you’d pick JRiver for video, let me know and I’ll email you a link to a 30 minute tutorial I posted six-ish years ago. The basic configuration details haven’t changed (a good thing).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Glat your investment in equipment and calibration was completely worth it! Look into Kodi for JRiver..the hard part (ripping) is over...finding a front end and pointing it to your files is the easy part. I enjoy ripped Atmos and DTS:X movies through JRiver all the time. Depending on your prior experience with JRiver, you could try Kodi as well—I’m not sure if it supports immersive audio, but I think it will.
> 
> I remember you used to use JRiver for audio-only, right? If you think you’d pick JRiver for video, let me know and I’ll email you a link to a 30 minute tutorial I posted six-ish years ago. The basic configuration details haven’t changed (a good thing).


JRiver assumes (I think) I have a computer in my rack - and I no longer do. Though I guess I could my MacBook Pro (with Windows or as a Mac) especially if it would be the replacement for the ATV/Infuse function - and get bitstream sent to my processor. 

Can JRiver read MKV files and what about 4K/HDR support? Does it, per chance, have the ability to rip DVDs? (I have some multi-channel music DVD's I would like to rip and play and my BlueSound can't do it).

Also, what is the user interface? An iPad? Do the movies show up on my screen or only on the iPad. ( I am trying to get my system back so my wife can actually operate it). I would be great if there were a Control4 interface to this and then she would not even need to use an iPad!!

Thanks

.


----------



## audioguy

Watched "13 Hours The Secret Soldiers of Benghazi" last evening. The sonic landscape I am now getting in my theater is so well balanced. Impact where there should be impact, totally immersive, 3 dimensional. I could go on. 

I was very concerned prior to getting my system up and running with a 9.X.6 Trinnov based system, that it would not match, at the very least, my RS20i 7.x4 system. Clearly I had nothing to worry about. Best home theater experience I have ever had the pleasure of enjoying - in my home or anywhere else.

And that movie was intense. Those events should never have occurred. That this US did nothing to keep that from happening is a total disgrace. Inexcusable !!!


----------



## audioguy

My dealer came out and provided all new network hardware, and re-integrated all of my stuff (Trinnov, AppleTV. etc). Much better but still have some issues that must be settings on something I will have to work on. 

We now have a bunch of movies set up in our "To Be Watched" movies so now we can get started on that ... later today.

I decided to try the @BrolicBeast idea of a setting for extreme bass with increased LFE. There is a very fine point between "AWESOME"    and "excessive"  -- surprisingly a 1/2 dB or so. Still fine tuning.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> My dealer came out and provided all new network hardware, and re-integrated all of my stuff (Trinnov, AppleTV. etc). Much better but still have some issues that must be settings on something I will have to work on.
> 
> We now have a bunch of movies set up in our "To Be Watched" movies so now we can get started on that ... later today.
> 
> I decided to try the @BrolicBeast idea of a setting for extreme bass with increased LFE. There is a very fine point between "AWESOME"    and "excessive"  -- surprisingly a 1/2 dB or so. Still fine tuning.


Finding that point is KEY to a grin that threatens to stretch beyond the limitations of your cheek bones!!!!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## SBuger

audioguy said:


> I decided to try the @BrolicBeast idea of a setting for extreme bass with increased LFE. There is a very fine point between "AWESOME"    and "excessive"  -- surprisingly a 1/2 dB or so. Still fine tuning.





BrolicBeast said:


> Finding that point is KEY to a grin that threatens to stretch beyond the limitations of your cheek bones!!!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I'd have to strongly agree with both of these statements!!  For these movie soundtracks I like to run my bass right on the edge as well. There is definitely a fine line (a very fine line for me) between just perfect, where bass feels extreme, but not too overly excessive with too hot of bass. I also find that even a 1/2db is all it takes to cross the line when your running right up to the edge and can make a world of difference getting it there. I don't know about you guys, but I also find that this can vary with difference movie soundtracks, depending on how hot the bass is in the mix. Depending on the movie track, I have no problem changing it some on the fly to get it there (and I do if need be) to keep that feel of it being right on edge of awesome but not quite too overly excessive ...where there is still that perfect balance and extreme bass feel, but any more, even a 1/2db can tip the scales of too much. It then becomes boomy, loss of detail in the bass, and starts overpowering everything else. If you pay attention, it's pretty easy to tell when you start tipping the scales towards too excessive. It's a fine line for sure IMHO. 

I just had to comment on that because I've never really seen anyone in these forums mention this before. 

BTW @audioguy - Very nice setup!! I don't think I've ever commented on your system and room before, but I stop in occasionally to see what your adding or tweaking on next. Yours too, @BrolicBeast, awesome theater and nice finish!!


----------



## audioguy

SBuger said:


> I'd have to strongly agree with both of these statements!!  For these movie soundtracks I like to run my bass right on the edge as well. There is definitely a fine line (a very fine line for me) between just perfect, where bass feels extreme, but not too overly excessive with too hot of bass. I also find that even a 1/2db is all it takes to cross the line when your running right up to the edge and can make a world of difference getting it there. I don't know about you guys, but I also find that this can vary with difference movie soundtracks, depending on how hot the bass is in the mix. Depending on the movie track, I have no problem changing it some on the fly to get it there (and I do if need be) to keep that feel of it being right on edge of awesome but not quite too overly excessive ...where there is still that perfect balance and extreme bass feel, but any more, even a 1/2db can tip the scales of too much. It then becomes boomy, loss of detail in the bass, and starts overpowering everything else. If you pay attention, it's pretty easy to tell when you start tipping the scales towards too excessive. It's a fine line for sure IMHO.
> 
> I just had to comment on that because I've never really seen anyone in these forums mention this before.
> 
> BTW @audioguy - Very nice setup!! I don't think I've ever commented on your system and room before, but I stop in occasionally to see what your adding or tweaking on next. Yours too, @BrolicBeast, awesome theater and nice finish!!


Thanks for the nice words. I have been at this addiction hobby for a long time and, for the most part, seem to be at a great stopping spot. More than satisfied with my projector image and the sound is pretty amazing with 15 speakers, 8 subs and 8000 watts of power driving them. Now it is about making the experience easier to enjoy. Like never having to get up to insert a disc to watch or listen to something. And except for movies with immersive audio, I'm there. Next up is to clean up the wiring on the back of my rack since I have redone almost everything in it. That is about 14 days of non stop work to get that completed.

Thanks again for stopping by.


----------



## COACH2369

It sounds like is time to finally make that overdue trip down to Georgia for a demo this Summer. 

I had the opportunity to demo my room this past Thursday night and then we headed to Asheville to Beastaudio's room for the weekend. We took bass levels to an utmost extreme, to say the least.


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> It sounds like is time to finally make that overdue trip down to Georgia for a demo this Summer.
> 
> I had the opportunity to demo my room this past Thursday night and then we headed to Asheville to Beastaudio's room for the weekend. We took bass levels to an utmost extreme, to say the least.


Look forward to having you come by. 

Given what Beastaudio has in his room, I have no doubt you listened at extreme (bass) levels. I can only now do that when my wife is on another continent. Given my recent upgrades, I have been doing some fine tuning of my LFE levels. And the other day, I had the Michael Jackson Concert of "This Is It" playing. I didn't think I was playing it *THAT* loud but the reaction I got from her suggested otherwise  I am on the 2nd floor and she was right underneath at the time. Now, I just warn her (kindly with a very soft and gentle voice) to leave the premises.

One of the great things about having this much quality woofage is that even at high levels, it is super clean and tight. And now that I have a few more speakers, the immersive effect is even better. So much fun. What an insane "hobby" but so enjoyable. And given the poor quality of movie theaters in general and here in particular (small town), we VERY seldom go (except for the fact that our church is currently meeting in the theater on Sunday mornings!!).


----------



## TMcG

audioguy said:


> I decided to try the @BrolicBeast idea of a setting for extreme bass with increased LFE. There is a very fine point between "AWESOME"    and "excessive"  -- surprisingly a 1/2 dB or so. Still fine tuning.


I think there needs to be a new mandatory rule...every theater must have a "Beast Mode" setting 



audioguy said:


> I ... seem to be at a great stopping spot.


What's the current over / under (in days) by the oddsmakers that you are not done?  

Just kidding, of course. We all have the disease. Looking forward to paying you another visit the next time I can fit it in my schedule!


----------



## audioguy

TMcG said:


> I think there needs to be a new mandatory rule...every theater must have a "Beast Mode" setting


Sounds like a plan!!



> What's the current over / under (in days) by the oddsmakers that you are not done?
> 
> Just kidding, of course. We all have the disease. Looking forward to paying you another visit the next time I can fit it in my schedule!


When I wrote that, I even said to myself: "Who are you kidding? You've said that more than once". That said, I'm "fairly comfortable" in saying that the basic speaker/amp/processor configuration is going to suit me for a very, very long time. Quite frankly, going from 7.x.4 to 9.x.6 was not a monumental improvement. Is it better? Yes ... but it has clearly demonstrated, at least to me, that a well designed room (including passive room treatment) with a great processor and properly placed 9.x.6 speakers is really the "sweet spot" in a reasonable sized home theater. Would 18.x.8 be better? Probably but based upon the immersiveness of my room with 7.x.4 and where it is now, I think that the 7.x.4 to 9.x.6 put you right at the point of diminishing returns.

I do have some minor upgrades in mind, mostly about being able to process my ripped Atmos discs -- and get my JVC re-calibrated to support SDR/WCG. When you do come by, I think you will come to the same conclusion. Is my room perfect. No. But given what I had to work with: prefixed room size, far from optimum HVAC configuration for sound isolation without me spending an additional $20,000, suspended floor, and a few other things, it is most certainly as good as it will ever get in this home - and my next home will either be Heaven .. or a senior citizen outpost where HT is not allowed !!

EDIT: I've considered this a bit more and I now choose invoke the "Bill Clinton" position: It all depends on what 'very, very long time' means!!


----------



## appelz

TMcG said:


> I think there needs to be a new mandatory rule...every theater must have a "Beast Mode" setting


I set up thebland with a "Scotty" preset, as in "I'm giving her all she's got Captain".


----------



## TMcG

appelz said:


> I set up thebland with a "Scotty" preset, as in "I'm giving her all she's got Captain".


When you come to calibrate I'm going to have a button on my Savant control with this GIF linked to my LFE 'house curve':










Because plaid is well beyond ludicrous...


----------



## audioguy

I watched "Justice League" with a first attempt at a "Beast Mode" setting. While there was not too much bass, the lower end stuff tends to dominate the mid to upper bass and loses the overall balance that I most enjoy!! I will keep diddling. And I'm only about 3dB above where Adam set it !!!!


----------



## BrolicBeast

TMcG said:


> When you come to calibrate I'm going to have a button on my Savant control with this GIF linked to my LFE 'house curve':
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because plaid is well beyond ludicrous...



Wait...Savant allows you to use GIFs? I need to look into that. Do they have a self-programming capability yet?



audioguy said:


> I watched "Justice League" with a first attempt at a "Beast Mode" setting. While there was not too much bass, the lower end stuff tends to dominate the mid to upper bass and loses the overall balance that I most enjoy!! I will keep diddling. And I'm only about 3dB above where Adam set it !!!!



WIsh I could give you some advice man, but now that you’ve been Pelzified (again), your possibilities are equivalent to operating in a space station while my brain is still pondering the physics of flight, sitting on a park bench in Kitty Hawk, NC.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## SBuger

audioguy said:


> I watched "Justice League" with a first attempt at a "Beast Mode" setting. While there was not too much bass, the lower end stuff tends to dominate the mid to upper bass and loses the overall balance that I most enjoy!! I will keep diddling. And I'm only about 3dB above where Adam set it !!!!


Not sure if you ended up settling on a pretty flat response all the way down or a rising house curve towards the bottom end. I find that since I like to run my subs pretty hot, that if I get too much of a rising house curve going on, that it just gets too heavy feeling and sounding from the lower end, loosing that mid and upper bass detail and overall balance that it sounds like you enjoy as well. I know peoples preferences can vary greatly and I'm sure rooms and equipment can influence this a fair amount, but I tend to prefer flat all the way down from my crossover point to down low under 10hz, then raise the whole thing up with sub trims (or sub gains if need be) and gives the most balanced feel and sound throughout that whole bass frequency range when running subs hot. 

Just thought I'd share what I've found and like from my experiences with it since you guys are talking about it.

Also, audioguy, your were asking about my USB connection for MKV's the other day and mentioned 'NAS'. I guess I didn't catch that, and am just using an external drive connected directly to my Oppo 103 for the MKV files. So not actually on a network. Might be why it reads the files with not problem. Just thought I'd mention that as well.


----------



## audioguy

SBuger said:


> Not sure if you ended up settling on a pretty flat response all the way down or a rising house curve towards the bottom end. I find that since I like to run my subs pretty hot, that if I get too much of a rising house curve going on, that it just gets too heavy feeling and sounding from the lower end, loosing that mid and upper bass detail and overall balance that it sounds like you enjoy as well. I know peoples preferences can vary greatly and I'm sure rooms and equipment can influence this a fair amount, but I tend to prefer flat all the way down from my crossover point to down low under 10hz, then raise the whole thing up with sub trims (or sub gains if need be) and gives the most balanced feel and sound throughout that whole bass frequency range when running subs hot.
> 
> Just thought I'd share what I've found and like from my experiences with it since you guys are talking about it.


The way you described your setup (flat to 10Hz) is the way I use to run my system and then increase LFE about 7dB (ish). That worked when I had other subs in other locations. With these subs in these locations, I lost all of the mid/upper bass slam doing it that way. So I now use a different target and ended up with awesome bass.




> Also, audioguy, your were asking about my USB connection for MKV's the other day and mentioned 'NAS'. I guess I didn't catch that, and am just using an external drive connected directly to my Oppo 103 for the MKV files. So not actually on a network. Might be why it reads the files with not problem. Just thought I'd mention that as well.


Thanks


----------



## audioguy

Created a "Beast Mode" by modifying the targets of all non-LFE channels and raising the trim of the LFE channel to match up with the individual channels. Plots smoothed to 1/3 octave. I would ignore anything south of 10Hz.

I have yet to listen to content but it should be interesting. Black is the original setting; Blue was my first attempt at adding some lower end heft and Red is the "Beast Mode"


----------



## audioguy

audioguy said:


> Created a "Beast Mode" by modifying the targets of all non-LFE channels and raising the trim of the LFE channel to match up with the individual channels. Plots smoothed to 1/3 octave. I would ignore anything south of 10Hz.
> 
> I have yet to listen to content but it should be interesting. Black is the original setting; Blue was my first attempt at adding some lower end heft and Red is the "Beast Mode"


After lots of listening, not a fan of the "red" curve. "Blue", for the most part, is just right. On a few movies, it would need something north of "red" as the bass is south of anemic !!!


----------



## BRAC

Beautiful theater Chuck! Quite the journey you’ve been on through the years. I’m so envious.

I can’t believe you upgraded from that Catalyst and Submersive setup you had previously. That was, and still is, one of the very best HT’s I’ve ever heard. Dynamics were off the charts for music and movies. You probably don’t remember me, but I came to visit your theater back in 2010 or 2011 during Cedia. I was there with a few other AVS members including Mark Seaton. That may have been a previous house for you, because if I remember correctly, you were either in Atlanta at that time or very close. I think my visit to your house was one of the highlights of that trip. Unfortunately, shortly after returning home from that trip I made the decision to take some time away from the hobby to pursue other interests and I lost touch with the forum for a number of years. Well, I’m happy to say I’m back with a vengeance! Started buying up gear about 6 months ago and have upgraded my way up to an Atlantic Technology 6200e setup with dual PB13 Ultra’s. I forgot how fun and addicting this hobby can be, but the wallet and the wife have other opinions on the matter haha.

Anyway, I just wanted to touch base and say hello. I really enjoyed reading about your journey since we crossed paths all those years ago!

Regards,

Bruce


----------



## audioguy

BRAC said:


> Beautiful theater Chuck! Quite the journey you’ve been on through the years. I’m so envious.
> 
> I can’t believe you upgraded from that Catalyst and Submersive setup you had previously. That was, and still is, one of the very best HT’s I’ve ever heard. Dynamics were off the charts for music and movies. You probably don’t remember me, but I came to visit your theater back in 2010 or 2011 during Cedia. I was there with a few other AVS members including Mark Seaton. That may have been a previous house for you, because if I remember correctly, you were either in Atlanta at that time or very close. I think my visit to your house was one of the highlights of that trip. Unfortunately, shortly after returning home from that trip I made the decision to take some time away from the hobby to pursue other interests and I lost touch with the forum for a number of years. Well, I’m happy to say I’m back with a vengeance! Started buying up gear about 6 months ago and have upgraded my way up to an Atlantic Technology 6200e setup with dual PB13 Ultra’s. I forgot how fun and addicting this hobby can be, but the wallet and the wife have other opinions on the matter haha.
> 
> Anyway, I just wanted to touch base and say hello. I really enjoyed reading about your journey since we crossed paths all those years ago!
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Bruce


I do remember you. Peter M and another guy from Chicago (had a company that made AV control software/systems) and Mark Seaton.

We lived in Roswell (Atlanta suburb) at the time we met but I have since 'retired" and moved about 80 miles east.

When we moved here, I kept my Seaton stuff and had no plans to change. After we signed up to build this house, I talked to Mark about getting a smaller form factor Spark (I used as surrounds and needed to hide them in columns I built) and he said he could have it by the end of the year. He did not and I waited almost another year. Started looking around for some other options, visited a guy in the Philly area (another AVS member) who has a full Triad system, fell in love and made the change.

The only minus that I have perceived since the swap was a bit in the area of "perceived" dynamics. I say "perceived" since I can't say for sure it was real or a function of the way that compression tweeters work. And that was the key minus on the Seaton Catalysts. They could really bite on occasion when pushed. Had the delay of the Spark replacement not occurred, I would still have a full Seaton system.

I am continually blown away by how well the overall sound in my room integrates. The Triad stuff is really amazing and flys way under the radar.

Welcome back the the crazy addiction world of home theater!!


----------



## audioguy

*Voodoo and a place to waste your money*

Prior to becoming a home theater enthusiast, I was a 2 channel junkie and caught up in buying all of the do-hickies that were advertised to improve the sound in my system. For example, I replaced all of the stock power cords to some 30+ components with very high priced power cords. Replaced all 30 at once and, viola, NO difference to my ears. There were numerous things I tried that were even more ridiculous and had zero science behind them. Even those products that did claim some level of science with "measurable" improvement, I could never hear -- but kept buying them, just in case, all together, they would provide some improvement. Another set of do-hickie I purchase were covers for all of my unused RCA inputs or outputs that claimed that "airborne noise" would be kept out of my system. I could go on.

I found *THIS* on another audio website. 15 years ago, I would have bought at least one. Now, not a shot. I may update this post from time to time to list all of the crap that is available for purchase to improve your sound. 

*DISCLAIMER:* I can't for sure claim that any of these thingies don't improve the sound. But I can say for sure that I never could hear any changes.


----------



## TMcG

I applaud your bravery in publicly admitting your prior 'junky' status. Reading it, I had visions of cryogenically frozen electrical receptacles, cable elevators and green markers to edge-coat your CDs!!

I always found it interesting how most of these high-end accessories seemed to act as a 'tone control' of-sorts. A source would often connect directly to an amplifier for the shortest possible audio pathway...only to have 10 different high-end gizmos supposedly 'tweak' the sound in its own unique way. Seemed like a black art where each enthusiast was his own personal shaman and the word 'placebo' was only uttered to those who you wished to inflict mental torment by having them second-guess their choices (or replicate your choices) in their quest for audio nirvana.

Call me cynical, but I always encouraged proper room dimensions, acoustic treatments and positioning above all else....or better yet, just get high quality Beyerdynamic or Senheiser headphones and forever be cured of endless tweaking!

I'm glad you're in full remission, my friend!


----------



## audioguy

TMcG said:


> I applaud your bravery in publicly admitting your prior 'junky' status. Reading it, I had visions of cryogenically frozen electrical receptacles, cable elevators and green markers to edge-coat your CDs!!


Even I had my limits (like I never owned "The Tice Clock".) 

There are "footer"products upon which you set your equipment that are $1200 for a set of four ...... times the number of pieces of equipment you own. Can footers make a difference? I don't know?



> I'm glad you're in full remission, my friend!


Me too. A really expensive use of money.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Lol, I’m chuckling to myself because as I read this, I have 9 aftermarket 7AWG power cables sitting on a couch in the basement collecting dust.

I hope you never went so far as to try that very expensive rock (yes, a rock) that supposedly absorbed electro-magnetic waves around your components, making your music sound “as good as I’ve heard in my room” with “a more textured midrange” and a “slightly deeper, fuller soundstage?”



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Lol, I’m chuckling to myself because as I read this, I have 9 aftermarket 7AWG power cables sitting on a couch in the basement collecting dust.
> 
> I hope you never went so far as to try that very expensive rock (yes, a rock) that supposedly absorbed electro-magnetic waves around your components, making your music sound “as good as I’ve heard in my room” with “a more textured midrange” and a “slightly deeper, fuller soundstage?”
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I did not buy a "rock" but I did buy the VPI brick (see http://www.elusivedisc.com/VPI-Magic-Brick/productinfo/VPI-BRICK/).

Actually I bought multiple and still have one. It is now used to hold Blu Rays in their vertical position ---


----------



## BrolicBeast

Hey Chuck! Did you watch Children of Men yet?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

Just got it in the mail. So either today or tomorrow!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Just got it in the mail. So either today or tomorrow!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice! Play it loudly...its a very atmospheric track, but more importantly, you don't want to miss a word!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Nice! Play it loudly...its a very atmospheric track, but more importantly, you don't want to miss a word!


 @BrolicBeast Curious: Do you have your ceiling speakers running "hot" or are they set at the same levels as your other speakers?


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> @BrolicBeast Curious: Do you have your ceiling speakers running "hot" or are they set at the same levels as your other speakers?




Ah—so the answer to that is straightforward, but reasons for engaging requires some explanations. So I have a couple presets....

The first preset runs the Atmos channels as normal (i.e. 75db at listening position like other speakers).

The second preset runs the Atmos channels 5db hot

Now, for movies upmixed to Atmos, or dialogue-driven films, I watch movies with the Atmos channels at the standard setting; however, for blockbuster audio films (i rely very heavily on @Ralph Potts for this info), I engage the “Atmos-hot” setting, taking into account the following hard-learned fact: a variable that changes from movie to movie is how much of the film’s score gets mixed into the Atmos channels. I’ve found over hours of experimenting, that a general all-encompassing Atmos-hot preset can result in a horrible front soundstage due to so any of the score’s elements being played at levels that most directly impact dialogue intelligibility. It’s horrible, and the first time I heard it, i thought I had somehow blown all the midranges in the Triad Plats. With your Ferrari processor, you could easily do the same (and I’d highly recommend it!) 

So, for the “blockbuster” films, I start the movie with the Atmos-hot present engaged, and if I hear a lot of score coming from above, I immediately switch to the Atmos-normal and watch the rest of the movie on that setting


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

Thanks.

I had 2 "presets" on my Datasat, one with my ceiling speakers about 2 - 3 dB hot. 5dB is a bunch. 

I will do some diddling and see what I like.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> I had 2 "presets" on my Datasat, one with my ceiling speakers about 2 - 3 dB hot. 5dB is a bunch.
> 
> 
> 
> I will do some diddling and see what I like.




Even 2-3 dB hot is too much for me when the musical score is mixed into the Atmos channels. In all fairness, I’ve noticed this with the wides as well. Can def overpower the L and R channels a few dB hot if the bed mix doesn’t favor it!

Something to think about—I have a preset for this, but haven’t used it in a while. You, like me, have six Atmos channels....I used to play around with making the rear pair 4-5db hot to emphasize the “above me in the room” feel, while leaving the middle and front Atmos pairs at “standard “levels. Being behind me, i got more atmosphere, and because I have the middle pair, there was no phantom image that was in danger of collapsing by doing this (versus 4 Atmos where the phantom image at MLP is critical).

This worked REALLY well for Valerian and a few other movies, but I just stopped using it for some reason.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Even 2-3 dB hot is too much for me when the musical score is mixed into the Atmos channels. In all fairness, I’ve noticed this with the wides as well. Can def overpower the L and R channels a few dB hot if the bed mix doesn’t favor it!
> 
> Something to think about—I have a preset for this, but haven’t used it in a while. You, like me, have six Atmos channels....I used to play around with making the rear pair 4-5db hot to emphasize the “above me in the room” feel, while leaving the middle and front Atmos pairs at “standard “levels. Being behind me, i got more atmosphere, and because I have the middle pair, there was no phantom image that was in danger of collapsing by doing this (versus 4 Atmos where the phantom image at MLP is critical).
> 
> This worked REALLY well for Valerian and a few other movies, but I just stopped using it for some reason.


Thanks. I had thought about that as well. Since your pre-pro doesn't support the center heights, do you make it a "copy" of the front and rear height. Same with wides. How do you provide audio to them?

My wides get virtually no use expect on very, very, very few movies. Top heights get a bit more. More than $6000 in speakers and amp channels, installation (forgetting about the upgrade to a $17,000 Trinnov), has been, so far, a huge disappointment (not in overall sound quality). I could make wides a copy of the fronts or sides but that is skirting the issue. That movie mixers actually don't create "true" 3D objects that would then let the pre-pro use all available speakers is more than a bit disappointing and confusing. I love the Trinnov but at this point in 3D audio Blu Ray movie, the concept of more channels than 7.x.4 is mostly a joke. I can only hope that eventually changes but I sure see no real trend in that direction. In fact, I see more of a trend in "locking" to 7.x.4.

*EDIT:* Having just re-read the above, apparently I am having a bad day - but, unfortunately, that does not change the truth of the situation.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Thanks. I had thought about that as well. Since your pre-pro doesn't support the center heights, do you make it a "copy" of the front and rear height. Same with wides. How do you provide audio to them?
> 
> 
> 
> My wides get virtually no use expect on very, very, very few movies. Top heights get a bit more. More than $6000 in speakers and amp channels, installation (forgetting about the upgrade to a $17,000 Trinnov), has been, so far, a huge disappointment (not in overall sound quality). I could make wides a copy of the fronts or sides but that is skirting the issue. That movie mixers actually don't create "true" 3D objects that would then let the pre-pro use all available speakers is more than a bit disappointing and confusing. I love the Trinnov but at this point in 3D audio Blu Ray movie, the concept of more channels than 7.x.4 is mostly a joke. I can only hope that eventually changes but I sure see no real trend in that direction. In fact, I see more of a trend in "locking" to 7.x.4.
> 
> 
> 
> *EDIT:* Having just re-read the above, apparently I am having a bad day - but, unfortunately, that does not change the truth of the situation.



Yes indeed—so I copy the front pair, add delays to prevent comb filtering. I do the same with the wides...I’ve played around with the wides as an extension of the front soundstage, and they certainly make the front soundstage sound larger than life, but my wides are currently copies of the surround channels. Really makes for a nice listening experience given their position on the side walls instead of on the front wall.

I completely agree—object oriented audio is not actually object oriented audio, and this is what baffles me. If mixed as purely object-based, it would technically make the sound mixers life a whole lot easier, and would simplify our design decisions/upgrade configurations. I really think there’s a way to get the most of out your recent upgrade from .4 to .6 because I don’t find my .4 nearly as enjoyable as my .6 experience, but it might have to do with speaker positioning? Your center pair—are they directly above your head? also, how are your tweeters oriented? My fronts are angled toward the MLP, as are the rears....the centers and both turned completely inward, also angled toward that center front row MLP. When you put in the RSLs, how did you orient them? 



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Hey Chuck! Did you watch Children of Men yet?


Did so last evening (without wife - she would have hated it). Interesting movie. And you did a good job of scaring the poo out of me by having me turn up the volume prior to the beginning of the movie (probably reference mine 2 or2). When that first explosion happened, I actually jumped. And the rest of the audio was every bit as involving. In fact, just with the up-mixer, the audio would put to shame most of the Atmos/DTS:X discs I own. The children's voices at "just past" the end was spooky.

As for the movie itself, it had the "feel" of Blade Runner. And most certainly a bit depressing. And I must confess I had some difficulty understanding all that was going on (not the central plot) so stayed a bit confused. I may try and read some about the film and do a re-watch so I can better understand some of the components. I had to do the same thing with the original Blade Runner.

That said, I did enjoy the film and I had not even heard about it prior to your mention. Amazing audio.


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> I really think there’s a way to get the most of out your recent upgrade from .4 to .6 because I don’t find my .4 nearly as enjoyable as my .6 experience, but it might have to do with speaker positioning? Your center pair—are they directly above your head? also, how are your tweeters oriented? My fronts are angled toward the MLP, as are the rears....the centers and both turned completely inward, also angled toward that center front row MLP. When you put in the RSLs, how did you orient them?


My front height and rear height are at about 45 degrees with all of them aimed at the MLP (I only have one row). The center height are directly above the row of seats and they too are aimed directly at the MLP.

My center heights get a LOT more use than my wides. DTS:Neural-X will not make use of them at all as it is limited to a 7.x.4 configuration where as DSU does make use of them (at least the way my system is configured). And my wides won't have the same impact as yours. Your L+R are behind the screen whereas mine are in the room, with the front baffle of the speaker probably 5 feet closer to me as compared to if they were behind the screen. I have one audio mix of REM that uses all of my speakers and would use another 10 if I had them. On one cut, there is a voice that comes directly out of my wides. But when I listen in a 7.x.4 configuration, the voice is in the EXACT location. The first time I heard that occur, I had to walk over to where the wides were to insure they were not playing - and they were not. While the voice was not as precise as if the speaker were being used, it was positioned perfectly. All of that to say, making my wides "copies" of my fronts probably won't buy me as much as it does you.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Did so last evening (without wife - she would have hated it). Interesting movie. And you did a good job of scaring the poo out of me by having me turn up the volume prior to the beginning of the movie (probably reference mine 2 or2). When that first explosion happened, I actually jumped. And the rest of the audio was every bit as involving. In fact, just with the up-mixer, the audio would put to shame most of the Atmos/DTS:X discs I own. The children's voices at "just past" the end was spooky.
> 
> 
> 
> As for the movie itself, it had the "feel" of Blade Runner. And most certainly a bit depressing. And I must confess I had some difficulty understanding all that was going on (not the central plot) so stayed a bit confused. I may try and read some about the film and do a re-watch so I can better understand some of the components. I had to do the same thing with the original Blade Runner.
> 
> 
> 
> That said, I did enjoy the film and I had not even heard about it prior to your mention. Amazing audio.



I fully agree with your take on the Audio of that movie. And yeah man, the dynamics are really spot on. I jumped too! What I like about it, standing maybe 50 feet from the explosion, that’s exactly how I’d expect to react....the movie really conveys everything on screen very well through audio cues. To be honest, there are some things I didn’t grasp on my first viewing 12 years ago that I did grasp this second time around (including one pretty big item). My feeling after its conclusion was similar to how I felt after seeing Logan (my benchmark for movie-induced semi-depression). I’m definitely glad you enjoyed it though! If I can answer any questions about it, please let me know.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## johnnygrandis

Long time since reading here, so you went down the Trinnov route how the room corrections, easy to understand ? 

Your Theater is kind of a reference so sorry I don`t live closer I would have asked you for a demo


----------



## audioguy

johnnygrandis said:


> Long time since reading here, so you went down the Trinnov route how the room corrections, easy to understand ?
> 
> Your Theater is kind of a reference so sorry I don`t live closer I would have asked you for a demo


The setup of the Trinnov is more complicated than any other device that I have used, including the Datasat RS20i. But if you want the best processor in a home theater, there is no the choice.

If you are interested in a demo, just let me know !!


----------



## johnnygrandis

Thanks, I need to sell my cabin before making the jump to Trinnov. I guess your home is in the US so just a airplane away of 14 hours give or take from Norway. Enjoying the thread and the extreme room and all the other stuff so keep posting!


----------



## johnnygrandis

audioguy said:


> It has 30 presets selectable via vnc OR you can attach a preset to an input and do it that way. Adam uses 10 of them for his work, some of which will be copied to the ones I will use. We have already created an additional preset for 70's rock. Most of it is recorded with anemic bass. LOTS of flexibility.
> 
> I got interrupted writing this as Adam is in the next room doing whatever it is he does and he was playing some clips from the most recent (I think) Atmos demo disc. I had to run in and listen standing up behind him. All I can say is "WOW"! 50 calibre guns are amazing, vocals are *crystal* clear, and at least on these demo clips, the wides and center heights are used quite well. While I have yet to sit in the sweet spot and watch my own selected clips, it appears as though this upgrade was well worth it and am now REALLY glad I made the decision to have Adam do this work instead of me. I am reasonably convinced that the majority of the improvements I am hearing are from whatever he is doing. I can now (maybe) spend some time is the next few weeks deciding if I need to make any fine adjustments in the target curves. Adam has done all of the heavy lifting.
> 
> So for those of you who have a Datasat, Trinnov or equivalent processor, save your money so your next "upgrade" can be hiring him.


Sorry for the "thousand" questions but who is Adam and is he included in the Trinnov buy ?


----------



## audioguy

johnnygrandis said:


> Sorry for the "thousand" questions but who is Adam and is he included in the Trinnov buy ?


Adam is Adam Pelz. One of the few who is at the top of their game in calibrating audio systems (and he does video as well). And no, he is not included in the Trinnov Pricing. Not inexpensive but you get what you pay for. He was in my room for two full days doing Adam Magic.

I have always done all of my own audio calibrations and was going to do the Trinnov as well. My issue is I am way too anal/OCD and when I had my Datasat RS20i, I had it running very quickly with great sound but as I was learning all of its capabilities, it took me another 2 or 3 years so it was as good as it was ever going to get in my room. I can't even begin to count how many measurements and mic placements and target curves and PEQ settings and ...... I tried in that period of time. Didn't want to do it again.

The Trinnov is a bit more complex. I am confident I could have had great sound in short order but I was impatient and wanted the best NOW. Since Adam has probably calibrated 40 or 50 or so Trinnovs (he does calibrating 5 days a week), I knew when he left, it was going to be excellent. I have only tweaked a very few things but all of the basics are as he set them.

As a result, I have been able to enjoy the best audio I have ever had in my room since shortly after he left and have just diddled a tad. If if were inclined to spend the time to learn all of the menus, options and capabilities, I would have done it myself. But while not full time, I do have lots of experience calibrating and setting up complex audio systems. If someone were coming at this cold, it could be a bit daunting !!!

I would add one more thing. If you are willing to spend $17,000 (or more) on a surround processor, then set aside some money to get some on-site assistants by someone who really has both the technical audio background as well as the experience on the product you will be using. I'm not saying you have to use someone like Adam, but why only get 80% to 90% of all of what the Trinnov can do when you have invested that kind of money? 

There are a few folks who visit these forums that are quite capable of doing their own and getting most excellent result, but they are NOT the majority !!


----------



## sdrucker

audioguy said:


> I would add one more thing. If you are willing to spend $17,000 (or more) on a surround processor, then set aside some money to get some on-site assistants by someone who really has both the technical audio background as well as the experience on the product you will be using. I'm not saying you have to use someone like Adam, but why only get 80% to 90% of all of what the Trinnov can do when you have invested that kind of money?


Sorry to crash your thread again  but this is worth some additional comment as one of those "guys" you mentioned that do their own cals. More or less.

I couldn't agree more with you. I have the Altitude 32, which at least in the current software doesn't have the Calibration Wizard in the 16, but while I think you can get a serviceable calibration (in the better than with no calibration) sense, unless you have a relatively simple setup - 7.1.4 to 9.1.6 in a single row setting, subs managed by MiniDSP or co-located on a single channel in the Altitude - you're not going to really make full use of the Optimizer's toolkit for high resolution room EQ and bass management without at least remote assistance from an Adam Pelz, Curt Hoyt, Mark Seaton etc. 

Better still to get their brain into the room onsite and use their skills for specific problem solving for your needs. Not to mention setting up appropriate (non-stock Harman) target curves. That's especially true if you have more than two co-located subs, want to use 3D remapping, universal speaker placement etc. And particularly so if you're in the active crossovers world for your speakers.



> There are a few folks who visit these forums that are quite capable of doing their own and getting most excellent result, but they are NOT the majority !!


Not close to a majority of Trinnov owners either. Personally I'm more hands-on than many, but I have a relatively unique path. I had a simplified Trinnov device in the old 7.1 Sherwood R-972 and had already figured out how to manage multiple subs and work with non-default bass management slopes with a MiniDSP, so I know in general what the Optimizer could do, albeit with older, fixed parameter code. I'd also spent some time when I was in LA with another Trinnov user (Rur) and Curt, so I'd seen older, fully featured Trinnov processors, and had read an old manual online before I bought an Altitude. 

And even then, I had Curt come out for two days to my place for speaker layout, setting/tweaking Optimizer parameters, and other settings for 3D audio that we used to get around some weaknesses both specific to how they worked as well as my layout, which actually DID use 3D remapping due to a specific rear door location and a single, multi-seat row. I've also bounced some ideas off of Adam as well, which is one reason I have as 13.4.6 setup LOL, BTW, over in the Altitude thread the last past year or so. 

So while I do my own setup, cal, and configuration now, I would be the last person to say that a typical purchaser of an Altitude or SDP-75 could just open the box, go through some menus, and be off to the races and be happy for long. At a minimum, not unless they've read and thoroughly understood Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction, possibly taken the HAA class (doing that myself in September), and the Altitude manual first.


We'll tempt you with a 24 or 32 channel unit one year or another, Chuck, but for now, enjoy!


----------



## audioguy

sdrucker said:


> We'll tempt you with a 24 or 32 channel unit one year or another, Chuck, but for now, enjoy!


Had I been able to acquire 3 Triad speakers that were offered on Audiogon that were perfect matches for mine at a stupid low price, I would already be at 12.X.8 - but I hesitated. My ear level surround speakers all have an MSRP of $2,000. Even if I get them at some discount, that is a bunch of money, to which I get to add the upgrade cost of the Trinnov and another $3500 amp, plus another (not free)visit from our friend Adam - maybe. If I thought I could use lesser speakers in those locations (a rear side wall set and middle rear wall), I still might still consider it - eventually. 

As I have stated ad-nauesm, there is currently not enough Atmos content that takes advantage of high speaker count rooms. If or when that changes, I will then actively consider the upgrade. That said, it is really nice at the moment to just be satisfied with my theater image and audio so I can watch movies and listen to music without the constant thought about the next upgrade (which, if I remember correctly) is why I built the theater in the first place. The only thing left to do in my theater is to redo all of the wiring in my rack since my most recent changes. But I have cleverly found a way to just ignore it for now !!


----------



## audioguy

My most recent addition. I have had temperature issues in my equipment room for the 5 years I have had it. An exhaust fan above the equipment rack and the single air inlet were no match for the heat put out by the equipment and the western exposure afternoon sun. I looked at every alternative and the only one that would work was more money than I wanted to spend - but I finally broke down. I should have done it when I built the room!!


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> My most recent addition. I have had temperature issues in my equipment room for the 5 years I have had it. An exhaust fan above the equipment rack and the single air inlet were no match for the heat put out by the equipment and the western exposure afternoon sun. I looked at every alternative and the only one that would work was more money than I wanted to spend - but I finally broke down. I should have done it when I built the room!!



So, I’m just gawking at that marvelously arranged media. Where did you get those shelves? Both the top and bottom? I’m ready to order them right now!

Great move on the mini split. Nothing can battle against exposure to the sun’s rising or setting arc. Our front lawn is a testament to this. We are positioned in such a way where we are just being hammered with sunlight from the time it rises until the time it sets. We have to work extra hard just to keep our grass *slightly* green. Lol. 



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

@BrolicBeast The bottom shelves were expensive ($600 each - all custom) I have 4 of them - but the company went out of business.

The good news: The total cost for the upper shelves (DIY) was (drum roll please) under $30.

Picture this: Vertical 2x4's attached to the wall with "L" brackets. If you want floor to ceiling shelving then run the 2 x 4s floor to ceiling. Space them about 3 to 4 feet apart. Then across the front of those 2x4's, use 1x2 strips horizontally spaced to allow you to slide in your movies or CDs with a bit of space above them for looks .... and a space for your fingers to grab them. I bought my stuff at HD, painted them black before I installed them, use screws to hold the 1x2s to the 2x4's (pre-drilled so I would not split the wood) The 1x2 holds the front of the case and the wall hold the rear of the case.

I could not find the original youtube that I used but found these 2 (the 2nd is a bit better but he is bit annoying). 

If you have any questions, let me know!!


----------



## TMcG

So....any early reviews / feedback on the Dune 4K??


----------



## audioguy

TMcG said:


> So....any early reviews / feedback on the Dune 4K??


It is *NOT* a Kaleidescape in terms of interface and slickness.  I could go on about all of the interface shortcomings but the facts are, I am 99.91% disc-less and that was one of my key objectives and it just works!

Also, if you like to be able to go to specific chapters, then don't rip into MKV. But, so far, it more than meets my expectations. Bitstreamed audio (which means I get Atmos/DTGS:X) sounds no different than that from the disc and video as well. Given I don't have an HDR calibration on my JVC, I doing some workarounds so can't comment on how it does for HDR. I will probably end up sending the 4K/HDR stuff through my Oppo and let it fix the HDR/SDR issues until I get an HDR calibration.

Summary. Glad I made the move and I will work on ways to improve the interface. And Dune's reputation for product improvements (i.e. firmware updates) is quite good so I am confident that over time, it will only get better.


----------



## sdrucker

audioguy said:


> It is *NOT* a Kaleidescape in terms of interface and slickness.  I could go on about all of the interface shortcomings but the facts are, I am 99.91% disc-less and that was one of my key objectives and it just works!
> 
> Also, if you like to be able to go to specific chapters, then don't rip into MKV. But, so far, it more than meets my expectations. Bitstreamed audio (which means I get Atmos/DTGS:X) sounds no different than that from the disc and video as well. Given I don't have an HDR calibration on my JVC, I doing some workarounds so can't comment on how it does for HDR. I will probably end up sending the 4K/HDR stuff through my Oppo and let it fix the HDR/SDR issues until I get an HDR calibration.
> 
> Summary. Glad I made the move and I will work on ways to improve the interface. And Dune's reputation for product improvements (i.e. firmware updates) is quite good so I am confident that over time, it will only get better.


Question: does this Dune 4K support video source direct? With plans for a Lumagen Radiance Pro and a lot of PAL foreign content on DVD, that would be a dealbreaker for me over a straight HTPC/NAS setup with JRiver or other playback options other than Oppo.


----------



## audioguy

sdrucker said:


> Question: does this Dune 4K support video source direct? With plans for a Lumagen Radiance Pro and a lot of PAL foreign content on DVD, that would be a dealbreaker for me over a straight HTPC/NAS setup with JRiver or other playback options other than Oppo.


I am not qualified to answer so you may want to wander over to the Dune thread and ask there. Sorry I can't help!


----------



## Marc Alexander

audioguy said:


> *VIDEO EQUIPMENT*:JVC RS 500 w/ Powered UH480 Panamorph Anamorphic Lens and sled JVC RS4500 w/Panamorph Paladin Lens (on the way)


Have you received the Paladin yet? I see you are selling both the UH480 and ATH sled. Don't you need the sled for the new AL? Getting a new sled?


----------



## audioguy

Marc Alexander said:


> Have you received the Paladin yet? I see you are selling both the UH480 and ATH sled. Don't you need the sled for the new AL? Getting a new sled?


I will permanently place the lens in front of the projector!!

I won't order the Paladin until I sell my current lens and sled!

*EDIT:* I lied. I just ordered the Paladin. The lens and sled will sell eventually and I wanted the new lens installed when I installed the 4500. Otherwise, I have to take down the projector install the lens bracket and then re-install. And then there is the issue of calibration. 

This whole process is the "classic" way I make these kinds of decisions. 

Up until very recently, I had zero interest in HDR and the SDR image was as good as I have ever seen. When I watched an HDR movie (from my Oppo), I would "strip metadata" and watch in SDR/WCG. Quite frankly, I had NEVER seen an HDR image on any projector that got me even the least bit excited. And when I had mine calibrated for HDR, even on high lamp I found it unacceptably dark.

I have now ripped all of my movies to MKV files on my NAS and was using a Dune for trying to watch SDR/WCG - and not very successfully and maybe no fault of the Dune. When my projector had some service work done, I lost all of my settings and wasn't sure how to get it to a place where I could watch SDR/WCG. Since I knew the Dune could pass a clean HDR image, I wanted to see if I could get that operational and 100% due to the efforts @beastaudio, I did get some great improvement in HDR over what I had previously - and clearly saw the potential. 

But one of the things I did NOT like about HDR on the RS500 (in addition a lack of brightness) was that when I wanted to watch HDR, I needed to go into the projector and select that profile AND remember to change the Gamma from what the JVC selected. A pain in the rear that could have been addressed by either some add-on thingie for a few hundred dollars OR a newer JVC that did not require the "thingie". And that's when the "upgrade" bug hit.

I have recently taken the audio side of my system to a level where I literally can conceive of no upgrades in the next 5 - 10 years. I won't be adding any more speakers since the Trinnov along with my room does such a great job of providing virtual images when necessary - and in my room, the upgrade to 9.x.6 from 7.x.4 added VERY little to the immersion effect. So if my audio system had become a "good for life" kind of experience (these words may could probably will come back to bite me), then I decided I might as well do the same to my video system. 

So I just forgot about upgrading to the newer version of the RS500 or even what JVC might announce at CEDIA. And then I learned that there were some "B Stock" options available on the RS 4500. The laser engine estimates on the 4500 are up to 30,000 hours depending on what setting one uses. If I watched 2000 hours of movies/TV a year, that would give me 15 years. Plus no image brightness degradation. I MIGHT watch half of that. Since I was totally satisfied with the (SDR) image I got on my RS500 and the image on the 4500 will be better, I can seriously see this being my "last" projector - and may need to put that in writing to my wife when she sees the mini-frig hanging on our theater ceiling.


----------



## beastaudio

Sub'd. Looking forward to the first impressions  I'll come down and help form my own impression too btw, you just let me know! haha


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> I will permanently place the lens in front of the projector!!
> 
> I won't order the Paladin until I sell my current lens and sled!
> 
> *EDIT:* I lied. I just ordered the Paladin. The lens and sled will sell eventually and I wanted the new lens installed when I installed the 4500. Otherwise, I have to take down the projector install the lens bracket and then re-install. And then there is the issue of calibration.
> 
> This whole process is the "classic" way I make these kinds of decisions.
> 
> Up until very recently, I had zero interest in HDR and the SDR image was as good as I have ever seen. When I watched an HDR movie (from my Oppo), I would "strip metadata" and watch in SDR/WCG. Quite frankly, I had NEVER seen an HDR image on any projector that got me even the least bit excited. And when I had mine calibrated for HDR, even on high lamp I found it unacceptably dark.
> 
> I have now ripped all of my movies to MKV files on my NAS and was using a Dune for trying to watch SDR/WCG - and not very successfully and maybe no fault of the Dune. When my projector had some service work done, I lost all of my settings and wasn't sure how to get it to a place where I could watch SDR/WCG. Since I knew the Dune could pass a clean HDR image, I wanted to see if I could get that operational and 100% due to the efforts @*beastaudio* , I did get some great improvement in HDR over what I had previously - and clearly saw the potential.
> 
> But one of the things I did NOT like about HDR on the RS500 (in addition a lack of brightness) was that when I wanted to watch HDR, I needed to go into the projector and select that profile AND remember to change the Gamma from what the JVC selected. A pain in the rear that could have been addressed by either some add-on thingie for a few hundred dollars OR a newer JVC that did not require the "thingie". And that's when the "upgrade" bug hit.
> 
> I have recently taken the audio side of my system to a level where I literally can conceive of no upgrades in the next 5 - 10 years. I won't be adding any more speakers since the Trinnov along with my room does such a great job of providing virtual images when necessary - and in my room, the upgrade to 9.x.6 from 7.x.4 added VERY little to the immersion effect. So if my audio system had become a "good for life" kind of experience (these words may could probably will come back to bite me), then I decided I might as well do the same to my video system.
> 
> So I just forgot about upgrading to the newer version of the RS500 or even what JVC might announce at CEDIA. And then I learned that there were some "B Stock" options available on the RS 4500. The laser engine estimates on the 4500 are up to 30,000 hours depending on what setting one uses. If I watched 2000 hours of movies/TV a year, that would give me 15 years. Plus no image brightness degradation. I MIGHT watch half of that. Since I was totally satisfied with the (SDR) image I got on my RS500 and the image on the 4500 will be better, I can seriously see this being my "last" projector - and may need to put that in writing to my wife when she sees the mini-frig hanging on our theater ceiling.


I have bookmarked this post so I can rub your nose in it in the future. 


Craig


----------



## BrolicBeast

craig john said:


> I have bookmarked this post so I can rub your nose in it in the future.
> 
> 
> Craig


Yeahhhh.....wasn't the RS20i the last processor ever? Ffwd a yr: Trinnov in the rack.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> I have bookmarked this post so I can rub your nose in it in the future.
> 
> 
> Craig



You would be the one person who would do that . 

I really do believe, more so than ever before, that I really can have this specific set of audio equipment for "life". While I know there will better speakers, I am way more than comfortable with what I have and have never heard anything that would make me consider changing (not that there are not much better speakers). I am not an "amp man" so amps will not change. As previously noted, increasing from 7.x.4 to 9.x.6 was anything but earth shattering so I don't see adding more channels. And while someone may eventually come up with a processor that is better than what I have, I don't see changing that either. I would have kept the RS20i had I not wanted to try higher speaker count. 

Video: Unless something comes along that is a game changer (e.g. HDR) I can't imagine what would cause me to want to "upgrade". My last 2 PJ's have been bright enough for SDR and the 4500 will be bright enough for HDR.

But ... we shall see!!


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Yeahhhh.....wasn't the RS20i the last processor ever? Ffwd a yr: Trinnov in the rack.


I actually had the RS20i for 3 years. And had I known that the additional channels added would be pretty much of a "meh" event, I would still have it.

There is one thing that could get me to consider an upgrade to the Altitude 32-24, and that would be a drastic change in the way ALL movies were mixed where adding more channels really made a huge audible difference, BUT, because in my room, I get such great phantom images, I'm not even sure I would do that.


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> Sub'd. Looking forward to the first impressions  I'll come down and help form my own impression too btw, you just let me know! haha


You are most certainly invited since it was you who got me to see the possibilities of HDR with a projector - and to whom I will place all blame for "making me" buy the RS4500 !!


----------



## beastaudio

audioguy said:


> You are most certainly invited since it was you who got me to see the possibilities of HDR with a projector - and to whom I will place all blame for "making me" buy the RS4500 !!


Comin' down hard on me like that eh? Yea yea, I guess I'll take the blame.


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> Comin' down hard on me like that eh? Yea yea, I guess I'll take the blame.


We who have the sickness must place blame somewhere!! 

Actually, I should thank you instead of blame you. You opened my eyes to the possibility that a projector (that didn't cost more than my 2nd home) could demonstrate the benefits of HDR. For many of the HDR movies, a PJ with the image of an RS500 would be more than adequate ... but, to my eyes, not all HDR movies. Once I saw what I saw, I knew I at least wanted one of the JVC's that didn't automatically go to Gamma D every time it saw an HDR input (nor did I want to add an external "thingie" to my RS500 to keep it from doing that). And then I heard about the B-Stock 4500 and 30,000 hour laser and no "bulb dimming" and no continuous calibrations. And while I am confident that in 3 to 5 years, a laser projector CLOSE to this this quality will be available at a much, much lower price, I'm no longer 35 (or 45 or 55 or 65) and I chose not to wait. And this Bible Verse (*James 4:13-14*) makes it pretty clear we are not promised a tomorrow. 

So I actually thank you for your assistance (as does AV Science, JVC and Panamorph) !


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> You would be the one person who would do that .
> 
> I really do believe, more so than ever before, that I really can have this specific set of audio equipment for "life". While I know there will better speakers, I am way more than comfortable with what I have and have never heard anything that would make me consider changing (not that there are not much better speakers). I am not an "amp man" so amps will not change. As previously noted, increasing from 7.x.4 to 9.x.6 was anything but earth shattering so I don't see adding more channels. And while someone may eventually come up with a processor that is better than what I have, I don't see changing that either. I would have kept the RS20i had I not wanted to try higher speaker count.
> 
> Video: Unless something comes along that is a game changer (e.g. HDR) I can't imagine what would cause me to want to "upgrade". My last 2 PJ's have been bright enough for SDR and the 4500 will be bright enough for HDR.
> 
> But ... we shall see!!


Two words...


"Wisdom" 
and
"Audio"


 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Two words...
> 
> 
> "Wisdom"
> and
> "Audio"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig


I have already gone down that road. I was blown away when I heard them with a Datasat at CEDIA a few years ago and did a lot of research on what would be needed to get them in my room. Excluding the cost of the speakers, massive (and expensive) room changes to get those installed.......that I can absolutely guarantee won't happen. Major electrical re-work; new masking system (mine is not AT), major construction issues as well. If I were starting from scratch, they would be the only speaker I would consider.

And one thing I have learned in this hobby. There is NO guarantee that if I were to just say "the heck with it" and do it, that the experience I ended up with in my home would match what I heard at CEDIA. And would not that be a bummer???


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> I have already gone down that road. I was blown away when I heard them with a Datasat at CEDIA a few years ago and did a lot of research on what would be needed to get them in my room. Excluding the cost of the speakers, massive (and expensive) room changes to get those installed.......that I can absolutely guarantee won't happen. Major electrical re-work; new masking system (mine is not AT), major construction issues as well. If I were starting from scratch, they would be the only speaker I would consider.
> 
> And one thing I have learned in this hobby. There is NO guarantee that if I were to just say "the heck with it" and do it, that the experience I ended up with in my home would match what I heard at CEDIA. And would not that be a bummer???


Wisdom Audio demos are the only CEDIA demos that ever blow me away (JBL maybe a distant second). 

The RS4500 is an absolute monster. Great pick up! 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Wisdom Audio demos are the only CEDIA demos that ever blow me away (JBL maybe a distant second).


Could not agree more. They are the only speakers that I would ever consider over the Triads. Magic. But I don't want to tear up my room, buy a new masking system, move all of my equipment, etc to do it.



> The RS4500 is an absolute monster. Great pick up!


Thanks. In every since of the word, it is a "monster". I actually do remember seeing it when it was shown at CEDIA several years ago and was really impressed - at both the image and the price. Without HDR, it is of no interest to me, but with HDR, (for my situation), the 3000 lumens of the RS4500 is more than good enough for a very, very, very long time. And I really love the idea of laser vs bulb. No more bulb fading and replacing and no more re-calibrations. I have not been this excited for an AV product in a very long time, including switching from the Datasat/7.x.4 to the Trinnov/9.x.6.

Boys and their toys !!


----------



## TMcG

TMcG said:


> What's the current over / under (in days) by the oddsmakers that you are not done?


I guess we now know the over/under was just 125 days. And then I see you promised your wife no more upgrades for another 1825 days in an e-mail no less (e-mail can also be referenced as "Exhibit A")???!!!  That's dangerous territory given the track record of upgrades! Big bollocks as they say in the UK.

But regarding your upgrades...all I can say is WOW!!! I REALLY can't wait until my next trip to the Atlanta area once you get the new video system up and running. You, good sir, are my hero!


----------



## audioguy

The email was the ONLY way I was going to stop giving into the madness of my "shiny metal syndrome". But I'm comfortable that all of the major components of the system are in a place that can be static for a very long time: projector; amps; speakers; processor. 

I still plan to investigate a better movie server as my Dune "works" but really has a poor interface. @BrolicBeast likes Plex (whatever that is) so I will investigate.

What I do see as an area where I will be "upgrading" (has already started) is re-buying many of my BRs to the HDR do-over (the 4K portion of the re-do means virtually nothing to me. My current PJ and the new one both do a great job of up-converting.) THAT could turn out to be quite expensive.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> The email was the ONLY way I was going to stop giving into the madness of my "shiny metal syndrome". But I'm comfortable that all of the major components of the system are in a place that can be static for a very long time: projector; amps; speakers; processor.
> 
> 
> 
> I still plan to investigate a better movie server as my Dune "works" but really has a poor interface. @BrolicBeast likes Plex (whatever that is) so I will investigate.
> 
> 
> 
> What I do see as an area where I will be "upgrading" (has already started) is re-buying many of my BRs to the HDR do-over (the 4K portion of the re-do means virtually nothing to me. My current PJ and the new one both do a great job of up-converting.) THAT could turn out to be quite expensive.




Check this out....it’s a video of my daughter learning how to activate my theater chairs’ recline function, but the Plex UI is in the background: https://www.instagram.com/p/BnOvO1OliHN/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

The RS500 is gone and the RS4500 is not here yet  Very pumped to add this to my theater. Not since I left the 9" CRT world have I chosen this level of video.

Lots of new (?) 4K/HDR movies on the way -- primarily for new "eye candy" since most I already own in Blu Ray/1080P: I can't recall how many times I have seen the movies with asterisks 

The Bourne Ultimatum*** 
The Bourne Supremacy***
The Bourne Identity***
Oblivion***
Wonder Woman;
Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk; 
Avengers Infinity War; 
Dark Night Trilogy***
Intersteller (seen pieces LOTS of times)
Passengers (This one looked incredible in 1080P. Can't imagine the possibilities in 4K/HDR 

At this rate, it will be as easy to spend as much on "new" movies as I did on the RS4500 !!


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> The RS500 is gone and the RS4500 is not here yet  Very pumped to add this to my theater. Not since I left the 9" CRT world have I chosen this level of video.
> 
> Lots of new (?) 4K/HDR movies on the way -- primarily for new "eye candy" since most I already own in Blu Ray/1080P: I can't recall how many times I have seen the movies with asterisks
> 
> The Bourne Ultimatum***
> The Bourne Supremacy***
> The Bourne Identity***
> Oblivion***
> Wonder Woman;
> Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk;
> Avengers Infinity War;
> Dark Night Trilogy***
> Intersteller (seen pieces LOTS of times)
> Passengers (This one looked incredible in 1080P. Can't imagine the possibilities in 4K/HDR
> 
> At this rate, it will be as easy to spend as much on "new" movies as I did on the RS4500 !!


Are there any special considerations in calibrating a laser projector with HDR, WCG and this level of light output? Is there any special calibration equipment needed? (I'm not a videophile, and am fairly naive about all this.) 



Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Are there any special considerations in calibrating a laser projector with HDR, WCG and this level of light output? Is there any special calibration equipment needed? (I'm not a videophile, and am fairly naive about all this.)
> 
> 
> 
> Craig


I don't calibrate any of my projectors (I rely on others, like ChadB). Like you, I am not a videophile. Actually, other than setting brightness and contrast I know nothing. That said, after I purchased the RS4500, I was provided some setup/calibration instructions that should get me more than close enough until such time as ChadB can show up. When I had RS500 calibrated by him, the after and before were not huge differences - except in trying to get some kind of HDR image to be acceptable.

But with the light output of the 4500, I will be surprised if a calibration by him after doing these initial setting will be mandatory. HDR by all accounts is outstanding out of the box. And according to Kris Deering, the out of the box image of this projector was really close to the image he got after calibration. I would still use Chad if he can make it to my neck of the woods. The good news is that once calibrated, given the consistent light source, I can't think of a reason for it ever needing calibration again. One of the many reasons I chose to go "all in" on a projector this time around.


----------



## beastaudio

Was one of the suggestions to experiment perhaps with the 130 nit custom curves? By no means would I tinker much with the stock HDR setting, but maybe at least try them out on one of the user modes for fun? If it doesn't look as good, just erase it all and start over.


----------



## audioguy

Because we were going to be out of town, we had the RS4500 shipped to a local place to hold for us. Picked it up today and the biggest surprise was no pallet -- just a (big) cardboard box. Given something that size and weight, I was caught off guard. It is possible it was shipped on a pallet that was removed after it arrived at the ship-to location. This B-Stock unit has 10 hours on the lamp (according to what is written on the outside of the box???)

The bigger surprise was that my wife and I were able to get it into the car, out of the car and then up a flight of stairs to the theater. Sucker weighs a lot more than my RS500 (apparently about 45 pounds!!).

I need to borrow some friends tomorrow and get it hung. Then the fun begins. 

Excited !!


----------



## beastaudio

WOOT!! If out of the gate you plan to load those curves again, I would certainly start out with the 1200 nit curves this time around. I think we discussed that but couldn't remember. Dom or Javs may even have some 1500 Nit curves too? Worth a shot.


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> WOOT!! If out of the gate you plan to load those curves again, I would certainly start out with the 1200 nit curves this time around. I think we discussed that but couldn't remember. Dom or Javs may even have some 1500 Nit curves too? Worth a shot.


First thing is to get it hung. Then I was provided some settings that were done by Kris Derring that I will implement and see what the starting point looks like.

Still trying to recruit some strong friends this morning.


----------



## TMcG

audioguy said:


> First thing is to get it hung. Then I was provided some settings that were done by Kris Derring that I will implement and see what the starting point looks like.


I have a calibration tool (X-Rite I1 Display Pro) I can put out on loan to you for a few weeks if you'd cover the shipping as projector settings rarely translate between different setups with any level of precision.


----------



## beastaudio

TMcG said:


> I have a calibration tool (X-Rite I1 Display Pro) I can put out on loan to you for a few weeks if you'd cover the shipping as projector settings rarely translate between different setups with any level of precision.


Do you come on loan with the I1? By shipping you mean gas? Ill pay your way soon as you have some free time to come visit Asheville


----------



## audioguy

It is hung and I am working on getting the A-Lens in place properly. Then I can dial in focus and line up the panels. But what I have seen so far looks mighty fine. I'm using the settings that Kris Derring noted in his review. And for now, that is going to have to settle.
@TMcG: Thanks for the offer but I have no idea how to use that device so I will either wait for @chadb to show up (estimated November) or watch as is. I have no doubt it can be better but until I can get a qualified calibrator here, I will live as is and experiment with some of the settings that @beastaudio downloaded, once I get everything else dialed in. 

If I never had it professionally calibrated, it would not be the end of the world, but that is not my preference.


----------



## TMcG

beastaudio said:


> Do you come on loan with the I1? By shipping you mean gas? Ill pay your way soon as you have some free time to come visit Asheville


Haha! We have two customers in Asheville (Mills River, actually). I was there about 6 weeks ago but was a man on the move at the time. I'll let you know when I have a return trip to the area as my weekends are consumed at the moment.



audioguy said:


> @TMcG: Thanks for the offer but I have no idea how to use that device so I will either wait for @chadb to show up (estimated November) or watch as is. I have no doubt it can be better but until I can get a qualified calibrator here, I will live as is and experiment with some of the settings that @beastaudio downloaded, once I get everything else dialed in.


It's easy to learn and readily connects to your laptop. Unlike audio calibration which is 90% science and 10% art, video calibration is pure science and limited only by your projector and setup's capabilities. Offer still stands if you want to play around with it.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Have you started playing around with HDR? A really fun one is the Praetorian Duel in Start Wars - The Last Jedi. The light sabres are always on and always bright!!!

Although....I question the title of the chapter:

Praetorians are a Roman designation aren’t they? And the battle is between more than two characters, so it’s definitely not a duel....

But the chapter is entitled Praetorian Duel...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

I finally got everything set up so I can actually view images on what I have purchased.

I have yet to watch a full movie (just lots of clips) but I did watch a lot of college football today. VERY impressed with the image clarity, detail, brightness and color pop. I have no doubt that once it is fully calibrated, it will get even better. And, based upon the number of HDR clips I watched, I certainly got what I wanted - much brighter HDR.

I tried high laser on HDR for grins (most use mid laser) and wow!! -- that used pretty close to the 3000 available lumens. I will investigate some kind of pseudo hush box so that I can use high laser AND not be bothered by the noise on those particularly dark HDR movies. I'm using mid laser for regular blu ray but I can close down the iris a bit to improve the overall image.

This was a good decision. And I can see me keeping this JVC RS4500/Panamorph Paladin anamorphic lens a REALLY long time. I actually kept my last Panamorph lens for 14 years - longer than I have ever owned any other audio or video component!!!!!


----------



## tigerhonaker

Audioguy,

1st just want to say I'm really (Glad) you are so pleased with your New RS4500. 

Also I have been wondering if you would try High-Laser and I see you have and also that you certainly liked what you saw a lot.

Don't suppose you would maybe add further comments of on High-Laser watching in regards to the obvious (Internal-Fan-Noises) ???
If you don't mind taking a few minutes here is what I'd like to ask you on the above subject.

(1) What is your HT actual room temperature ???

(2) Did you by chance run the 4500 long enough for it to engage the (Turbo-Fan-Speed) ???

(3) Sorry I don't recall now if yours is ceiling mounted or on a shelf.

(4) Which ever way it is mounted what actually distance is it behind your actually seating distance.

(5) And you did mention that the Fan-Speed noise you didn't really like if it was a quieter scene in the movie was that on High-Laser & Turbo-Mode ???

I'm just trying to get an idea of how LOUD really is the 4500 on say, Medium Laser, and also of course High-Laser and especially if it goes to Turbo-Mode.


Thanks ahead for your time,
Terry


----------



## audioguy

(1) What is your HT actual room temperature ??? I SET THE THERMOSTAT TO 76 DEGREES. IN A SEALED INSIDE ROOM WITH NO WINDOWS, IT APPROACHES UNCOMFORTABLY COLD AT THAT TEMP. 

(2) Did you by chance run the 4500 long enough for it to engage the (Turbo-Fan-Speed) ??? YES, AS THE TEMPERATURE AROUND THE 4500 INCREASES, IT APPARENTLY COMES ON

(3) Sorry I don't recall now if yours is ceiling mounted or on a shelf. CEILING MOUNTED

(4) Which ever way it is mounted what actually distance is it behind your actually seating distance. AS THE CROW FLIES, IT IS VERY CLOSE TO 5 FEET

(5) And you did mention that the Fan-Speed noise you didn't really like if it was a quieter scene in the movie was that on High-Laser & Turbo-Mode ??? HIGH LASER AND TURBO CAN BE HEARD ABOVE THE MOVIE SOUNDTRACK (NOT WTH CAR CHASES AND GUN SHOTS AND EXPLOSIONS) THIS WOULD BE COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE TO ME.

I'm just trying to get an idea of how LOUD really is the 4500 on say, Medium Laser, and also of course High-Laser and especially if it goes to Turbo-Mode. MEDIUM LASER IS FINE, ON THOSE OCCASSIONS WHEN "TURBO MODE" KICKS IN, IT IS AUDIBLE. BUT NOT TOO MUCH.

AT THE VERY LEAST, I PLAN TO DO WHAT MIKE DID AND INSTALL A "DEAD VENT" AS HE CALLS IT WHCH IS A FANCY NAME FOR AN EXHAUST FAN THAT DUMPS THE HOT AIR INTO THE SPACE ABOVE THE ROOM. BUT IF I AM SERIOUS ABOUT USING HIGH LASER, SOME KIND OF HUSH BOX WILL BE MANDATORY SO AS NOT TO TAKE AWAY FROM THE MOVIE WATCHING EXPEIENCE.


----------



## tigerhonaker

> AT THE VERY LEAST, I PLAN TO DO WHAT MIKE DID AND INSTALL A "DEAD VENT" AS HE CALLS IT WHCH IS A FANCY NAME FOR AN EXHAUST FAN THAT DUMPS THE HOT AIR INTO THE SPACE ABOVE THE ROOM. * BUT IF I AM SERIOUS ABOUT USING HIGH LASER, *SOME KIND OF HUSH BOX WILL BE MANDATORY SO AS NOT TO TAKE AWAY FROM THE MOVIE WATCHING EXPEIENCE.



Thank-You for the information Sir. 


Terry


----------



## audioguy

Replacement has arrived - boxed and with a pallet!!


----------



## TMcG

Uh.....replacement? I must have missed something as I thought the first one was up and working fine. What happened?


----------



## audioguy

TMcG said:


> Uh.....replacement? I must have missed something as I thought the first one was up and working fine. What happened?


It exhibited a random couple of issues almost immediately. Then, one evening, the PJ shut off with a blinking red light. When I re-powered it up (after unplugging and re-plugging) it worked but the two random issues became permanent. It would no longer auto switch between SDR and HDR and the HDR image was a total mess. Everything was super red. So I spent a week or so trying different things at the request of JVC, and they decided a replacement was necessary.

Swapping out a 90 pounds projector is no small matter. I have to remove the lens, take down the projector (with two very strong friends), remove the lens bracket, remove the hanging bracket, get the replacement up a flight of stairs, reattach everything and re-calibrate. Then I need to get the original down stairs and attach it to the pallet I just got.

Fun  --- but at least I am almost back in business.


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> Replacement has arrived - boxed and with a pallet!!


 
Audioguy,






Terry


----------



## audioguy

"New" 4500 is operational. Again, stunning image. Having some HDMI issues (at least, that is what I am hoping it is). I have a new (more expensive) HDMI cable on the way to run from the Trinnov to the PJ to see if that reduces/eliminates the problems. The committee who came up with HDMI should be taken to a remote island where the only other living creatures are hungry dinosaurs !! They took what worked, "simplified it " and made it randomly work !!

4500 fan noise is a bit more problematic now. I am assuming that since it is now cooler weather and I don't have the AC running as frequently in the theater, the heat build up around the PJ is the culprit. Given the huge pain in the rear that swapping PJs is, even if the PJ is the culprit, I need to look at a hush box (just in case I want to use high laser ).

Anyone have any ideas on how to make one with proper ventilation?


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> "New" 4500 is operational. Again, stunning image. Having some HDMI issues (at least, that is what I am hoping it is). I have a new (more expensive) HDMI cable on the way to run from the Trinnov to the PJ to see if that reduces/eliminates the problems. The committee who came up with HDMI should be taken to a remote island where the only other living creatures are hungry dinosaurs !! They took what worked, "simplified it " and made it randomly work !!
> 
> 
> 
> 4500 fan noise is a bit more problematic now. I am assuming that since it is now cooler weather and I don't have the AC running as frequently in the theater, the heat build up around the PJ is the culprit. Given the huge pain in the rear that swapping PJs is, even if the PJ is the culprit, I need to look at a hush box (just in case I want to use high laser ).
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have any ideas on how to make one with proper ventilation?




My plan is to ultimately build a hush box (plan to hopefully upgrade to the NX9 once my 2yr daughter ships off to college in 16 years). The plan is to have Acoustic Frontiers design the hush box, and I’ll build it myself. So a pro hush box design plan is definitely something to think about. They do sell pre-fab hush boxes, but they cost half as much as your Trinnov!  


EDIT: BTW—from what I understand, Tributaries and MHX Ethereal w/ Active source-side booster are the only fool-proof HDMI cables for this [email protected] generation. I’ve never owned the Tributaries, but can definitely vouch for the Metra MHX. 

This is the Tributaries: https://www.tributariescable.com/products/UHDT 

This is the Metra MHX: https://metrahometheater.com/hdmi-cables/mhx-cables/mhx-lhdme15.html to be used with this accelerator: https://metrahometheater.com/hdr-4k-solutions/hdm-ga1.html 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## beastaudio

BrolicBeast said:


> My plan is to ultimately build a hush box (plan to hopefully upgrade to the NX9 once my 2yr daughter ships off to college in 16 years). The plan is to have Acoustic Frontiers design the hush box, and I’ll build it myself. So a pro hush box design plan is definitely something to think about. They do sell pre-fab hush boxes, but they cost half as much as your Trinnov!
> 
> 
> EDIT: BTW—from what I understand, Tributaries and MHX Ethereal w/ Active source-side booster are the only fool-proof HDMI cables for this [email protected] generation. I’ve never owned the Tributaries, but can definitely vouch for the Metra MHX.
> 
> This is the Tributaries: https://www.tributariescable.com/products/UHDT
> 
> This is the Metra MHX: https://metrahometheater.com/hdmi-cables/mhx-cables/mhx-lhdme15.html to be used with this accelerator: https://metrahometheater.com/hdr-4k-solutions/hdm-ga1.html
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I have had absolutely zero dropouts with my celerity @ 35' distance as well, fwiw, however I have not attempted 4k60 on it as far as I know. Im not buying Billy Lynn just for that, so I'll have to get some sort of 4k streaming set up.


----------



## BrolicBeast

beastaudio said:


> I have had absolutely zero dropouts with my celerity @ 35' distance as well, fwiw, however I have not attempted 4k60 on it as far as I know. Im not buying Billy Lynn just for that, so I'll have to get some sort of 4k streaming set up.


I also have the celerity running to my projector. It can't handle Billy Lynn. I thought it could until i tested it recently. Could just be my unit though.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## beastaudio

BrolicBeast said:


> I also have the celerity running to my projector. It can't handle Billy Lynn. I thought it could until i tested it recently. Could just be my unit though.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Dangit. Guess I'll be attempting to sort that out sooner rather than later. Thanks Matt, thanks a lot...


----------



## BrolicBeast

beastaudio said:


> Dangit. Guess I'll be attempting to sort that out sooner rather than later. Thanks Matt, thanks a lot...


Lol, don't lose hope! When Arrow AV brutally tested Celerity and its competitors (4 cables per manufacturer), a percent of the Celerities did work with [email protected], so it's sort of a shot in the dark depending on which cable you get. Yours might! 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

Simple answer to the 4K/60 issue .... DO NOT buy the Billy Lynn movie. I only did because I saw the reference here someplace (maybe on Matt's thread). I have yet to watch it but I have viewed a few of the early scenes and it is one VERY CLEAN colorful image. As a result of buying that movie, I have now spent the $20 for the movie, then another $50 for the Blue Jeans replacement cable and now another $150 for the newest cable. So that is pretty much $220 to watch one not-very-good movie !! Silly me!!


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Simple answer to the 4K/60 issue .... DO NOT buy the Billy Lynn movie. I only did because I saw the reference here someplace (maybe on Matt's thread). I have yet to watch it but I have viewed a few of the early scenes and it is one VERY CLEAN colorful image. As a result of buying that movie, I have now spent the $20 for the movie, then another $50 for the Blue Jeans replacement cable and now another $150 for the newest cable. So that is pretty much $220 to watch one not-very-good movie !! Silly me!!




LOL, Chuck, Chuck, Chuck—as you know, the pursuit is never for the content, but for the capability to play the content if we so choose. Once the media content is procured, it MUST be playable. That is the unwritten law of an A/V enthusiast! If a buddy gives us a DSD file to listen to, and the system can’t playback DSD, then we will analyze the heck out of the system until we find the bottleneck and subsequently, SOMETHING is getting upgraded. It’s the expensive life we’ve chosen for ourselves. Lol. 

I’ve only watched Billy Lynn once, and I’ll probably never watch it again....but it is pure visual splendor.

BTW—check out the scene where Billy Lynn and his unit marches with the band—the bass is powerful! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> LOL, Chuck, Chuck, Chuck—as you know, the pursuit is never for the content, but for the capability to play the content if we so choose. Once the media content is procured, it MUST be playable. That is the unwritten law of an A/V enthusiast! If a buddy gives us a DSD file to listen to, and the system can’t playback DSD, then we will analyze the heck out of the system until we find the bottleneck and subsequently, SOMETHING is getting upgraded. It’s the expensive life we’ve chosen for ourselves. Lol.


Soooo much truth in the above!!



> BTW—check out the scene where Billy Lynn and his unit marches with the band—the bass is powerful!


I will do so when I finally get around to watching the movie. I have gone even MORE nuts since I decided to upgrade my PJ to be able to more successfully handle HDR. I have purchased so many new HDR movies (actually, not all new movies but new HDR versions of other movies) that I'm not sure when I will get to watch all of them.

_Hi .... my name is Chuck and I'm an audio/video/media/diddling addict !!!_


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Soooo much truth in the above!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will do so when I finally get around to watching the movie. I have gone even MORE nuts since I decided to upgrade my PJ to be able to more successfully handle HDR. I have purchased so many new HDR movies (actually, not all new movies but new HDR versions of other movies) that I'm not sure when I will get to watch all of them.
> 
> 
> 
> _Hi .... my name is Chuck and I'm an audio/video/media/diddling addict !!!_



Ha—you are indeed an addict, as am I. the problem with our addiction is that we subconsciously seek encouragement, not help!

Are you still liking your Dune 4k player? I”m using Plex on an Nvidia Shield, and I like the interface, but I do prefer JRiver’s theater view—it was just soooo slick the way I had it customized. Having been one of the few folks I know to dabble in the Kscape eco-system, what does the Dune get right that Kscape didn’t, and vice versa? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Ha—you are indeed an addict, as am I. the problem with our addiction is that we subconsciously seek encouragement, not help!
> 
> Are you still liking your Dune 4k player? I”m using Plex on an Nvidia Shield, and I like the interface, but I do prefer JRiver’s theater view—it was just soooo slick the way I had it customized. Having been one of the few folks I know to dabble in the Kscape eco-system, what does the Dune get right that Kscape didn’t, and vice versa?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


The Dune gets way more wrong. It will not allow me, near as I can tell, to send a pure signal (no HDR conversion and no upscaling) to the projector. The interface leaves a LOT to be desired. The K system had it all (price notwithstanding) except timely access to all 4K movies, lack of access to some 4K movies, and some 4K movies that should have bee Atmos that were 5.1 until some time after you got the initial download. And the fact that if you download all your movies from them and they go "toes up" and your system breaks, not only will you have lost your hardware, you will have also lost access to every movie you bought from them. Some would have digital rights but those are all with compromised audio.

Interface wise, nothing is even close. The Apple TV could be the product but they don't support full bandwidth Atmos.

Short answer, I am only using the rather crappy interface of my Oppo to read my ripped files.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> The Dune gets way more wrong. It will not allow me, near as I can tell, to send a pure signal (no HDR conversion and no upscaling) to the projector. The interface leaves a LOT to be desired. The K system had it all (price notwithstanding) except timely access to all 4K movies, lack of access to some 4K movies, and some 4K movies that should have bee Atmos that were 5.1 until some time after you got the initial download. And the fact that if you download all your movies from them and they go "toes up" and your system breaks, not only will you have lost your hardware, you will have also lost access to every movie you bought from them. Some would have digital rights but those are all with compromised audio.
> 
> Interface wise, nothing is even close. The Apple TV could be the product but they don't support full bandwidth Atmos.
> 
> Short answer, I am only using the rather crappy interface of my Oppo to read my ripped files.


Going to try something else like the Shield? Or will you stick with the Oppo for now? 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Going to try something else like the Shield? Or will you stick with the Oppo for now?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


If the Shield has a 30 day return policy I might try it. As of now, the Oppo is my streaming device. Lousy interface but it works.

Why did you back away from your PC /J River Solution? Did it do HdR?


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> If the Shield has a 30 day return policy I might try it. As of now, the Oppo is my streaming device. Lousy interface but it works.
> 
> Why did you back away from your PC /J River Solution? Did it do HdR?


Trying to use my HTPC was a 4k video nightmare. HDR and color space reproduction--argh!!!

just to fix my performance issues, i'd need a video card thst costs more than the Nvidia Shield does. Other reports for 4k on Jriver (as of summertime) was that it wasn't ready for prime time due red October not being compatible, and i think some people had issues with madVR being too complex. 

If you have any questions on the shield settings, menu or video/audio capabilities let me know and I'll shoot some video, save to Dropbox, and send you a link

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

Matt: Will the Shield let me send a 1080P image as 1080P or will it always up convert? I want a device that will send whatever the source is (color depth and resolution) to my PJ. No up converting SDR to HDR or 1080P to 4K.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Matt: Will the Shield let me send a 1080P image as 1080P or will it always up convert? I want a device that will send whatever the source is (color depth and resolution) to my PJ. No up converting SDR to HDR or 1080P to 4K.


I'll double-check tonight or tomorrow, but pretty sure i have the shield setup like that now (native resolution output), as my Lumagen does all upscaling when engaged via virtual inputs for some desired conditions. I'll let you know once i confirm.. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

Because this hobby is clearly an addiction (for me), I have a new mini-project in the works. I hope to finish in a couple of weeks. 

When I decided to change the cosmetics in the room, I chose a quick and dirty approach for the front half of the side walls. I made three huge "panels" for each side to cover up either empty wall space or diffusion panels. This was all about getting the room a bit more consistent look and feel - and to get all surfaces near the screen black. And that worked, but it never was *exactly* what I wanted. 

I have seen numerous theaters that had used multiple beveled panels in various sizes and colors to add some character and texture to the room and that is what I originally wanted and will be doing. When I did the original cosmetic redo, I had no way of easily cutting the bevels for the panels so went for function over form. I now have a solution to do that.


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> Because this hobby is clearly an addiction (for me), I have a new mini-project in the works. I hope to finish in a couple of weeks.
> 
> When I decided to change the cosmetics in the room, I chose a quick and dirty approach for the front half of the side walls. I made three huge "panels" for each side to cover up either empty wall space or diffusion panels. This was all about getting the room a bit more consistent look and feel - and to get all surfaces near the screen black. And that worked, but it never was *exactly* what I wanted.
> 
> I have seen numerous theaters that had used multiple beveled panels in various sizes and colors to add some character and texture to the room and that is what I originally wanted and will be doing. When I did the original cosmetic redo, I had no way of easily cutting the bevels for the panels so went for function over form. I now have a solution to do that.


Audioguy,

Looking forward for sure to see what you are doing once completed to your satisfaction. 
Also, if I am correct Chad B. should be coming to see you maybe even this coming week









Once that takes place I hope you will post what you think afterwards ……….

Terry


----------



## audioguy

ChadB will be here a week from tomorrow and I will post my thoughts once I have had time to view some content. I will also update my thread with new photos once the new panels are completed and installed.


----------



## audioguy

Finally decided to jump on the Roon music server/management software bandwagon so purchased a Sonic Transporter from Small Green Computer to run Roon Core. I evaluated using:

(1) The just announced Mac Mini (~ $700)
(2) An Intel NUC (~$500)
(3) The Roon Nucleus (~$1400)
(4) Small Green Computer Sonic Transporter i5 (~$780)

Clearly, based upon price, the Intel NUC was the right choice. And, based upon things I read and assistance I received from another AVSer, I was told that physically assembling the NUC (memory and SSD Drive), downloading and installing the OS, downloading and installing Roon Core was not at all difficult. BUT, given my history with "computers" and a couple of other theater "projects" I am involved in that are taking more time than they should, I decided to forgo the $300 savings and buy something that required zero assembly and zero software installation ... literally, plug 'n play. And, the entire design of this box was to serve as place to run Roon Core. 

The downside to this solution: SGC is a small one-man (probably) company and the the OS is not generic so that if something happens I could end up having wasted this money. On the other hand, I had previously purchased amps from d-Sonic which costs a lot more than this box. So we shall see. 

The Mac mini would have been a great choice because it could be come another desk top should I decide to no longer use Roon. I could see no real advantage of the Roon Nucleus.

Excited to get this thing up and running.


----------



## beastaudio

I tried to read up on roon and got basically nowhere. Their website is just a bunch of backdoor links and stuff that made absolutely no sense to me. Roon was the answer from another AVSer to a question I posed looking for a service that would allow me to pool all my music files, and clean them up/ get them all to the same format, but for the life of me I couldn't ever figure out how it actually worked... Will be interested in your findings here.


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> I tried to read up on roon and got basically nowhere. Their website is just a bunch of backdoor links and stuff that made absolutely no sense to me. Roon was the answer from another AVSer to a question I posed looking for a service that would allow me to pool all my music files, and clean them up/ get them all to the same format, but for the life of me I couldn't ever figure out how it actually worked... Will be interested in your findings here.


I didn't even bother to TRY a free version of Roon. I wanted to test it so that neither the interface nor performance was compromised. I have only read one negative comment on this product. EVERYONE else raves about how it changes the music listening experience. I am looking forward to a common interface for all of my music - my own Library and streaming services. In order to do some things that I had no interest in doing (like up-converting my music to DSD) I would have needed a more powerful processor. And if the device on which you are going to play the media can not receive the music over ethernet, there are some other boxes you need to buy to accomplish that. My Trinnov is "Dune Ready" so I didn't need that.

Once I have it up and running for a while, I will post my thoughts.


----------



## beastaudio

audioguy said:


> I didn't even bother to TRY a free version of Roon. I wanted to test it so that neither the interface nor performance was compromised. I have only read one negative comment on this product. EVERYONE else raves about how it changes the music listening experience. I am looking forward to a common interface for all of my music - my own Library and streaming services. In order to do some things that I had no interest in doing (like up-converting my music to DSD) I would have needed a more powerful processor. And if the device on which you are going to play the media can not receive the music over ethernet, there are some other boxes you need to buy to accomplish that. My Trinnov is "Dune Ready" so I didn't need that.
> 
> Once I have it up and running for a while, I will post my thoughts.


I'm pretty sure sonos is capable of running roon one way or another so I'd be in pretty good shape if that is the case. I need to dig back into it a little more.


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> I'm pretty sure sonos is capable of running roon one way or another so I'd be in pretty good shape if that is the case. I need to dig back into it a little more.


That will be nice since we have a Sonos in our family room.

See *THIS* link.


----------



## Roger Dressler

beastaudio said:


> I tried to read up on roon and got basically nowhere. Their website is just a bunch of backdoor links and stuff that made absolutely no sense to me. Roon was the answer from another AVSer to a question I posed looking for a service that would allow me to pool all my music files, and clean them up/ get them all to the same format, but for the life of me I couldn't ever figure out how it actually worked... Will be interested in your findings here.


Just another vote for Roon. I am a happy user -- great ease of use, lossless sound quality. 

Roon is not a format converter in that it will not create new files. But it will play a wide variety of source files either in native format or it can adapt them during playback to whatever hardware you have. The Sonos case, for example, requires downsampling everything to 16-bit and at most 48 kHz. For my system using the SSP-800, I have it leave everything untouched except for DSD files (from SACD) which are converted on the fly to 88.2 kHz. The DVD-A files remain in native 96 or 192 kHz, 24-bit. 

Roon excels in ingesting content without "tags" or metadata, like .wav files (I had a lot of that from my CDs ripped with iTunes), and it makes it easy to identify "mystery" albums if you know the artist or album name. 

I chose to run Roon on a basic Win7 HTPC I had on hand, which made it easy to connect to the SSP via HDMI. 

If you can get past the website, and start the free trial, I think it will be worth the effort.


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> The DVD-A files remain in native 96 or 192 kHz, 24-bit.


Thanks. Good to know about DVD-A files. I hope the Trinnov can accept them via ethernet since that is how it will receive all other files. Now I just need to find a program that will successfully rip them. Any recommendations?



> Roon excels in ingesting content without "tags" or metadata, like .wav files (I had a lot of that from my CDs ripped with iTunes), and it makes it easy to identify "mystery" albums if you know the artist or album name.


Also good to know. I have quite a few Albums that neither of my previous two ripping programs could identify.


----------



## beastaudio

Roger Dressler said:


> Just another vote for Roon. I am a happy user -- great ease of use, lossless sound quality.
> 
> Roon is not a format converter in that it will not create new files. But it will play a wide variety of source files either in native format or it can adapt them during playback to whatever hardware you have. The Sonos case, for example, requires downsampling everything to 16-bit and at most 48 kHz. For my system using the SSP-800, I have it leave everything untouched except for DSD files (from SACD) which are converted on the fly to 88.2 kHz. The DVD-A files remain in native 96 or 192 kHz, 24-bit.
> 
> Roon excels in ingesting content without "tags" or metadata, like .wav files (I had a lot of that from my CDs ripped with iTunes), and it makes it easy to identify "mystery" albums if you know the artist or album name.
> 
> I chose to run Roon on a basic Win7 HTPC I had on hand, which made it easy to connect to the SSP via HDMI.
> 
> If you can get past the website, and start the free trial, I think it will be worth the effort.



Well, Im sold. I'll get into the free trial after thanksgiving when I have more time to digest it all. I've got a laptop that stays on 24/7 in the HT that holds all my music files and typically runs sonos, so I could easily pop Roon on there and see how it all goes. If I understand correctly, the interface (and phone app) would just supercede the sonos apps while still connecting to those "Outputs" being the sonos connects... Sounds like a cake walk 

Sorry to thread jack Chuck!


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> Thanks. Good to know about DVD-A files. I hope the Trinnov can accept them via ethernet since that is how it will receive all other files. Now I just need to find a program that will successfully rip them. Any recommendations?


I purchased *DVD Audio Extractor* for its ease of use. One time I had a disc (Gaucho) that would not produce outputs for the stereo tracks, and that was solved with *DVD Audio Explorer*, which is not as pretty but offers more options and is free.



> I have quite a few Albums that neither of my previous two ripping programs could identify.


Roon might initially show you a generic gray box instead of the album info, but they made it super easy to correct those cases, as well as to resolve duplicate album entries triggered by having the same song from different sources. We can discuss all that once you get'er going.


----------



## audioguy

ChadB just left and while I have yet to watch any full movie, the first thing that is very obvious is that the color pop if far better - which I thought was incredible prior to his work. He fine tuned my Panamorph lens and set both focus and convergence razor tight.

It was clearly worth the money for the 8+ hours he spent. He calibrated SDR at mid laser and HDR at mid and high laser. If I can get a hush box built I would only use high laser (really audibly intrusive) for those particularly dark movies, otherwise, mid laser is more than adequate.

*EDIT:* We ended up watching a few episodes one of our current Netflix series (Scandal) via our 4K Apple TV. Blown away by what we saw. More importantly, my wife was more than impressed. This in now the 4th change I have made in the theater where she has actually been able to tell the difference (That is out of about 8 major upgrades. All but one of those where she could tell were projector upgrades). It was the most 3 dimensional cleanest and sharpest video image I have ever seen on any projector anywhere. My wife noted that she could even see the very faint patterns in one of the characters's dress shirts. As a note, this program is broadcast in 1080P and SDR - but you sure could have fooled me/us. What an amazing projector and what a great job Chad did in fine tuning an already amazing product. 

Pumped. 

Is there a way to insert a USB thumb drive into the projector and copy every single setting in it so that if I have to have it repaired and lose all of the work he did I can recover??? Maybe using the JVC Autocal program?? Given Chad's very busy schedule, getting him back here to do another calibration could be well over a year!!


----------



## tigerhonaker

Audioguy,

Thanks for your post above ^^^
I was hoping you might share with us RS4500 owners what you thought after Chad B did his thing. 




> It was clearly worth the money for the 8+ hours he spent.
> He calibrated SDR at mid laser and HDR at mid and high laser.
> *If I can get a hush box built I would only use high laser*
> (really audibly intrusive) for those particularly dark movies, otherwise, mid laser is more than adequate.



So, be Blunt, please with your Reply.
If noise was not any issue at all ???
Would you only use High-Laser 100% of the time ???
I Do-Not have any issue at all with running mine on High-Laser that's why I am asking and I think you will answer exactly as you feel.

I'm glad you are totally satisfied with your images now buddy.









Terry


----------



## TMcG

Admittedly, I have never heard of "Chad B", but based on your enthusiastic recommendation I may have to put his services in my flex budget when I get up and running, assuming I get a projector which deserves 8 hours of calibration service like your RS4500.

Add a Roon to that list as well!


----------



## audioguy

tigerhonaker said:


> If noise was not any issue at all ???
> Would you only use High-Laser 100% of the time ???
> 
> Terry


I would NOT use high laser 100% of the time if noise were no issue. On the vast majority of HDR movies, it just isn't necessary. To your eyes, you may perceive it differently and want more lumens. And sometimes, even high laser won't brighten up a super dark screen (Think of some of the scenes in Bladerunner 2049). 

Your situation is different than mine. Your screen is probably greater than unity gain BUT, you don't have the Panamorph lens which add about 30% more light.

But just like most everything else in the hobby, everyone has their own preference. And you may prefer to use high laser for everything you watch.


----------



## audioguy

TMcG said:


> Admittedly, I have never heard of "Chad B", but based on your enthusiastic recommendation I may have to put his services in my flex budget when I get up and running, assuming I get a projector which deserves 8 hours of calibration service like your RS4500.
> 
> Add a Roon to that list as well!


ChadB is the "go to" guy for video calibration for many AVSer. Ken Whitcomb is another guy. Chad is less expensive on the one hand but way busier on the other. He's been doing this since 2002 and a very nice guy. And you would like him because he is easily as fastidious as you are.

The image on all of my JVC projectors "out of the box" has been excellent. He makes them even more excellent !!


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> I would NOT use high laser 100% of the time if noise were no issue. On the vast majority of HDR movies, it just isn't necessary. To your eyes, you may perceive it differently and want more lumens. And sometimes, even high laser won't brighten up a super dark screen (Think of some of the scenes in Bladerunner 2049).
> 
> Your situation is different than mine. Your screen is probably greater than unity gain BUT, you don't have the Panamorph lens which add about 30% more light.
> 
> But just like most everything else in the hobby, everyone has their own preference. And you may prefer to use high laser for everything you watch.


Audioguy,

Thanks for the Matter-of-Fact reply on using High-Laser. 
Well as it stands I'm using Medium Laser for everything but HDR material.
I'm pretty sure my RS4500 switches to High-Laser (Automatically) when it sees that flag.
I will make a Final-Decision after Chad B. comes and does his thing. 

Thanks again,
Terry


----------



## audioguy

tigerhonaker said:


> Audioguy,
> 
> Thanks for the Matter-of-Fact reply on using High-Laser.
> Well as it stands I'm using Medium Laser for everything but HDR material.
> I'm pretty sure my RS4500 switches to High-Laser (Automatically) when it sees that flag.
> I will make a Final-Decision after Chad B. comes and does his thing.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Terry


It switches to the HDR setting automatically when it sees HDR but that can be set up for Low, Medium or High Laser. It is very easy for you to switch to Med Laser in your HDR setting.


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> It switches to the HDR setting automatically when it sees HDR but that can be set up for Low, Medium or High Laser. It is very easy for you to switch to Med Laser in your HDR setting.


Audioguy,

I think I'm good for right now so I'll chill until Chad B comes.
Also I'll simply see when he (Chad) does his custom settings what is the "Real-World-Difference" between Medium & High-Laser on HDR material.
In my case since I actually use the HT almost 7-days a week it might be smart for me to use Medium-Laser if there is not really all that much difference.
I figure even with me running my system usually 7-days a week if I use Medium-Laser I probably will not wear out the RS4500 at my age. 

I appreciate all your Feedback buddy. 

Terry


----------



## audioguy

Yesterday, I watched some additional footage, both SDR and HDR and I am totally blown away by this projector. The clarity and crispness of the image, the 3 dimensional feel, the color, uniformity, brightness are certainly more than I expected. As good as it was prior to ChadB doing his thing, once it was calibrated, it really moved to a significanlty different level.

So very glad I spent the money for this projector (plus the minuscule amount to get the very best out of it by ChadB).


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> Yesterday, I watched some additional footage, both SDR and HDR and I am totally blown away by this projector. The clarity and crispness of the image, the 3 dimensional feel, the color, uniformity, brightness are certainly more than I expected. As good as it was prior to ChadB doing his thing, once it was calibrated, it really moved to a significanlty different level.
> 
> So very glad I spent the money for this projector (plus the minuscule amount to get the very best out of it by ChadB).


I love reading your Feedback on the RS4500








And especially the End-Results after Chad B did his thing. 


T.


----------



## audioguy

I got Roon up and running pretty quickly once the SGC i5 Sonic Transporter shows up. I had the music files stored in 2 places: on the Bluesound Vault 2 hard drive and on a backup USB drive (which, as it turns out, was created prior to me fixing all of the album covers that the Vault 2 did not find). For convenience and speed sake, I copied the data from the USB drive to my NAS but quickly realized that I was missing cover art for all of those albums that I had previously fixed. So now, I am making a backup of what is on my Vault 2 which I will them move to my NAS. I tried the copy/past function from the vault to the NAS but got errors on 3 different attempts.

The good news: the SGC is an excellent product on which to run Roon Core and it comes pre-installed on the product, as does the OS, I assume created from Unix by SGC. I find it incredible how much technology they can now cram into such a small enclosure (I was a computer programmer in the late 60's and early 70's and those computers would easily fill up most of the first floor in our current home). And it is about as plug 'n play as you can imagine once you figure out the stupid way the Roon wants you to help it find your data on a NAS. And it has 47 trillion settings, most of which I will never touch. I also like that it makes it very easy to use the app (tablet, phone or computer) to play music in any Roon end point (in our case, a Sonos in our family room also used for TV audio). For a lot of the music, it provides lyrics. And the interface works very quickly at least on my almost new iPad.

BUT, I am still trying to figure out the "killer feature set" that seems to make this product so attractive to so many that my Bluesound Vault did not already have. It does have some unique features such as it will provide lyrics to some of the music, it shows other music by the same artists. And, when you search, it will look at your library and Tidal.

What I really do not like and I do not like it A LOT, is the very odd inconsistency in the way you scroll on your screen to look a various albums. For music on Tidal, you scroll up and down but for music in my library, you scroll left and right (maybe that is adjustable but I sure could not find how to change it). My Vault has the ability to use my Amazon Music as part of searching and Roon appears not to???

I have another 12 days to evaluate during the freeRoon trial period but at this instant in time, I really am looking for a reason to keep it. What are the features that everyone seems to like so well? Please share!!


----------



## Roger Dressler

In terms of music playback, the Vault looks like an excellent platform, almost identical to Roon. The main difference I see is that Vault makes no mention of DSD support, and a lot of my 5.1 music is in DSD64 format, thanks to SACD extractions. These would presumably have to be converted by something like JRiver into PCM/FLAC for Vault. Not the end of the world.

Roon not only handles DSD (either as native DSD or decimated on the fly to a PCM format of your choice), but it also streams DTS “CD” files and Dolby TrueHD and Atmos bitstreams (as from Blu-ray music discs) via HDMI. It does not decode them, though, so these would not work with certain endpoints like Sonos. 

I came to Roon after Apple obsoleted the ATV Gen1, blocking my ability to update the library. Turns out that was a happy bridge to burn, as Roon’s multi-format hi-res support has expanded my access to 5.1 discs that were often left idle on the shelf. Now they're in daily rotation like the rest of the CD collection. 

Roon’s random play modes are quite effective. One can just randomly play the whole library, or seed the process by genre by playing a chosen song first. And it offers deeper option for music selection based on year, artist, format, etc, etc, in any combination. 

If you want to know something about the artist or the album playing, just click the links and see it. Sure, one can do that with Google, too, sort of. 

I am not a Roon power user, so there’s probably much more to it than I use.


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> In terms of music playback, the Vault looks like an excellent platform, almost identical to Roon. The main difference I see is that Vault makes no mention of DSD support, and a lot of my 5.1 music is in DSD64 format, thanks to SACD extractions. These would presumably have to be converted by something like JRiver into PCM/FLAC for Vault. Not the end of the world.


I don't use a DAC, only digital-in on the Trinnov - which can't handle DSD - only up to 24/96. So that is of no benefit to me.



> Roon not only handles DSD (either as native DSD or decimated on the fly to a PCM format of your choice), but it also streams DTS “CD” files and *Dolby TrueHD and Atmos bitstreams (as from Blu-ray music discs) *via HDMI. It does not decode them, though, so these would not work with certain endpoints like Sonos.


Now that might be interesting. What about movie (vs music) Blurays? I have all of my movies ripped in MKV format and am currently using the Dune to play them. The interface on Dune is not stellar. What software do I need to add to the Roon core to be able to do that? But now that I think about it, my SGC doesn't have an HDMI output.

But since my Oppo is Roon ready, maybe it could be the "player" of the ripped movies??? For BR playing, don't you have to point Roon to a different folder or are yours all in the same place?



> I came to Roon after Apple obsoleted the ATV Gen1, blocking my ability to update the library. Turns out that was a happy bridge to burn, as *Roon’s multi-format hi-res support has expanded my access to 5.1 discs that were often left idle on the shelf.* Now they're in daily rotation like the rest of the CD collection.


I'm confused. How does Roon work with shiny discs?



> Roon’s random play modes are quite effective. One can just randomly play the whole library, or seed the process by genre by playing a chosen song first. And it offers deeper option for music selection based on year, artist, format, etc, etc, in any combination.
> 
> If you want to know something about the artist or the album playing, just click the links and see it. Sure, one can do that with Google, too, sort of.
> 
> I am not a Roon power user, so there’s probably much more to it than I use.


I will have to just explore all of the possibilities and see how I might better use the product. If I did not already own the Music Vault, this would have been a great (and less expensive) solution. We shall see.

And thanks for your response. If you ever find yourself wandering around the southeast part of the US with nothing better to do, give me a call. It would be fun to meet.


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> I don't use a DAC, only digital-in on the Trinnov - which can't handle DSD - only up to 24/96. So that is of no benefit to me.


My SSP-800 cannot handle native DSD either, so Roon feeds it 5.1 as 24/88.2. 



> Now that might be interesting. What about movie (vs music) Blurays? I have all of my movies ripped in MKV format and am currently using the Dune to play them.


Roon will not play movies. I am using Kodi for the very few videos I have ripped as MKV. Mostly for product testing purposes so I don't have to jockey among a bunch of different test discs. Kodi was my first attempt to replace the obsolete AppleTV, and while it worked, it was fussy about the album art file tagging. Roon was much more pleasant.



> But now that I think about it, my SGC doesn't have an HDMI output.


That's an issue with certain audiophile streaming hardware, for some reason. So I'm using a dedicated Win7 PC for all my media.



> For BR playing, don't you have to point Roon to a different folder or are yours all in the same place?


All my media files on a single HDD inside the media PC, filed in several folders by type just for my convenience -- Roon does not care. Also have a separate folder for all the Christmas music, and I just enable that folder in Roon's Storage menu when I want to hear them merged into the random play list. 



> I'm confused. How does Roon work with shiny discs?


All DVD-A, BD, and SACD content has first been ripped in its respective native audio format, same as for CDs. I have a handful of software programs installed on the media PC, plus a cooperative SACD player, to perform all that ripping business. 



> And thanks for your response. If you ever find yourself wandering around the southeast part of the US with nothing better to do, give me a call. It would be fun to meet.


I'd love that! Your theater has always been one of my favorites -- can only imagine what it must sound and look like now.  

We're conveniently located on the way to nowhere in particular here in NW Oregon. If you're ever wandering through these parts, let me know!


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> I'd love that! Your theater has always been one of my favorites -- can only imagine what it must sound and look like now.


Thank you. Yours has always been on my watch list as well. REALLY love your new theater. Some very clever and tastefully done work. And I have no doubt, that it sounds and looks incredible.

I must confess that our video is as good as I have seen anywhere. May not look like Art Sonneborne's (have not seen his) but for my much smaller screen, it is way better than good enough. And the audio is better than I have ever owned so I am very pleased with both. The issue I have with my audio (and have for the last well over 40 years) is the question that keeps randomly popping into my head: "I wonder what it would sound like if I adjusted .............". 



> We're conveniently located on the way to nowhere in particular here in NW Oregon. If you're ever wandering through these parts, let me know!


You live in a beautiful part of our country. Someday, I would like to visit the Pacific Northwest. And you never know, I ended up visiting a guy's mega expensive two channel system (Steve Williams when he was still on AVS) across the SF Bay when we went Wine Country Touring.


----------



## beastaudio

Hey Chuck, just saw today in my emails that Plex is now teamed up with Tidal, which allows for custom library curation among other things kind of like what you're doing with Roon. Might be worth a shot if you aren't getting what you want out of Roon. Free trial at the very least


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> Hey Chuck, just saw today in my emails that Plex is now teamed up with Tidal, which allows for custom library curation among other things kind of like what you're doing with Roon. Might be worth a shot if you aren't getting what you want out of Roon. Free trial at the very least


I am way too far down the path on Roon to look elsewhere. I purchased the Small Green Computer *THIS BOX* that is Roon specific and has a drive and memory to rip and store movies (though I am storing them on my NAS). No turning back so I also paid the Roon license fee --- for LIFE.

I don't even have to select the Roon input on my Trinnov. Once I start up Roon, the Roon input gets selected automatically! I am already discovering things that it does that I like very much. I am here to stay. Of course there is the interface to my library as well as Tidal and sometime next year, Qobuz!! And I can download music if I so desired (not sure why I would). That should just about cover all of my music needs. I was looking for *THE* killer feature in Roon. I'm not sure there is such a thing. It seems to do many smaller things better than what I have been using. And it's one of those products where you just keep discovering new capabilities. 

Roon would be doing themselves a GREAT service with a well done youtube video SLOWLY walking through some of the key features and how to use them - but that's just me.

The ONLY thing in the AV department I am lacking is a SUPER streaming device for my stored MKV files. The Apple TV would be it if it could handle full bitstream Atmos, but it can't. So for now I am using the Dune. It works and the audio and video are fine but the interface is still too clunky for me.


----------



## audioguy

I have made some cosmetic changes to the room. 

When I undertook the project to cover the existing treatment with black GOM frames, I wanted to use beveled edges but could not find anyone to make the frames and I didn't want to buy the tools. So I built some functional but less attractive than I wanted and much larger than I wanted just to get it done. I did recently find someone (Acoustimac) to build them for me and have now finished the front side walls as I wanted to originally. 

As an FYI, the speaker grill covers are only off if I am planning to listen to music - not watch movies.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Audioguy (Chuck),

I'm glad I just now saw this E-Mail notice on your HT. 

I doubt my words/wording will do a very good job on what I think but I'm willing to give it a shot buddy. 

Your Home Theater pictures you just posted last evening look truly to me like the Real-Deal for a Dedicated Home Theater !!!
I have seen a lot of HT pictures of all different ones small, medium and of course the truly large.
Your's to me looks like a place a fellow (Wife and or Family) could actually ENJOY day after day for hours upon hours. 

*Simply "Outstanding" ...* 

Thanks so much for sharing with all of us on AVS,
Terry


----------



## audioguy

Terry:

Thanks for the kind words. I do enjoy it a lot. I am hoping that now that I have a light source that I don't need to worry about, I will use it more frequently. I also use the room for music so I don't use the 4500 for that. I absolutely love our theater every time we watch anything in there. My sound system is as good as any I have ever heard and, of course, the video is spectacular. 

I started this "home theater" journey in about 1984 (front projection TV with surround speakers), built my first REAL home theater in 1992 and it has been non-stop to this point. I was even in the audio business for about 10 years officially and unofficially about 40 years (on and off).

Most of my theater "decorating" ideas I stole borrowed from others on AVS.

I am comfortable saying that I have no significant upgrades in mind for a very long time (I committed to my wife at least 5 to 10 years for PJ, processor, speakers, and amps.) 

Thanks again. Crazy but fun hobby.


----------



## audioguy

In the FWIW department, I have switched from Tidal to Qobuz. Why? A couple of reasons. Qobuz has REAL high rez music vs the MQA nonsense of Tidal - and more of it. Secondly, with Tidal, I continued to have the "music" of JayZ and his buddies thrown in my face - and I am not a fan of that genre (and that's being kind).

At the moment, the Qobuz library is smaller than that of Tidal and the high rez files are more limited than they will be but I have received a response from Qobuz that they are adding more and more files daily. And besides, I can't listen to all of the music that is available to me today so waiting a bit for them to fully flesh out their library is no big deal.

As an admission of more of my many character flaws, I am a conspiracy theorist at heart. But rather than me stating all of the reasons why I believe MQA is nonsense (and much, much worse), and if you care to do any research, check out the following links:

https://www.linn.co.uk/blog/mqa-is-bad-for-music

https://davidsusilouncensored.wordpress.com/2018/06/18/mqa-a-scam-misleading-or-is-it-a-cure-all/

https://www.schiit.com/news/news/why-we-wont-be-supporting-mqa

https://music-room.com/magazine/insight/mqa-the-lossy-codec-no-end-user-asked-for-or-needs

And a single quote from Mark Waldrep that sort of sums up my position:

*"In my humble opinion, the only people that will benefit from MQA are the principals at MQA, their investors, audiophile writers (they have something new to write about), and content companies that will be able to resell their catalogs once again at premium prices."*

I could go on and yes, I know there are arguments stating why MQA is the next great thing in audio. Have I heard MQA? Yes and that is one of MANY reasons I think it is pure nonsense! 

This is just my personal thing. In fact, I feel so strongly about it that it that the word "scam" comes to mind. You are more than welcome to have the complete opposite view.


----------



## beastaudio

audioguy said:


> In the FWIW department, I have switched from Tidal to Qobuz. Why? A couple of reasons. Qobuz has REAL high rez music vs the MQA nonsense of Tidal - and more of it. Secondly, with Tidal, I continued to have the "music" of JayZ and his buddies thrown in my face - and I am not a fan of that genre (and that's being kind).
> 
> At the moment, the Qobuz library is smaller than that of Tidal and the high rez files are more limited than they will be but I have received a response from Qobuz that they are adding more and more files daily. And besides, I can't listen to all of the music that is available to me today so waiting a bit for them to fully flesh out their library is no big deal.


DOes Qobuz integrate with your roon stuff or is all that gone too now?


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> DOes Qobuz integrate with your roon stuff or is all that gone too now?


It does or I would not have switched. And if one is so financially inclined, it supports both simultaneously (and at the same time ).


----------



## audioguy

Apparently, it's not over until it's over. 

I have just ordered a Lumagen RadiancePro to "complete" my video chain. It was Dynamic Tone Mapping that got me to make the decision to do this. I will be using the services of *Craig Rounds* to perform my video calibration as he was one of the two names provided to me by Lumagen. I also bought the Lumagen from him as well. I owned a Lumagen many moons ago when I decided to learn basic video calibration utilizing CalMan. That did not go well. Other than being able to easily set brightness, contrast and adjust gray scale, the rest may as well be a foreign language. So this time, I made the decision to hire someone who actually understood the ins and outs of video to do the work for me. And apparently unlike others, Craig does the majority of all of the calibration inside of the Lumagen vs inside of the projector. I'm sure I will get a better explanation of why he prefers doing it that way when he gets here to do the work.

This move to fully embrace HDR has turned out to be incredibly expensive: JVC RS4500, Panamorph Paladin Lens; Lumagen Processor AND calibration of same. And as was the case for purchasing the RS4500, I have no idea what kind of improvement I might expect with the addition of the Lumagen. If it is as profound as was the improvement from the 4500, I will be a very happy camper. I must confess that prior to finally seeing what HDR was all about (thanks to @beastaudio for spending time enlightening me) my "good enough" level for video was far less costly than my "good enough" for audio. That, clearly, has changed.

I guess the good news is that short of spending the price of a new home for the ultimate projector, there are no more video upgrades to be made (hopefully).


----------



## Frohlich

audioguy said:


> Apparently, it's not over until it's over.
> 
> I have just ordered a Lumagen RadiancePro to "complete" my video chain. It was Dynamic Tone Mapping that got me to make the decision to do this. I will be using the services of *Craig Rounds* to perform my video calibration as he was one of the two names provided to me by Lumagen. I also bought the Lumagen from him as well. I owned a Lumagen many moons ago when I decided to learn basic video calibration utilizing CalMan. That did not go well. Other than being able to easily set brightness, contrast and adjust gray scale, the rest may as well be a foreign language. So this time, I made the decision to hire someone who actually understood the ins and outs of video to do the work for me. And apparently unlike others, Craig does the majority of all of the calibration inside of the Lumagen vs inside of the projector. I'm sure I will get a better explanation of why he prefers doing it that way when he gets here to do the work.
> 
> This move to fully embrace HDR has turned out to be incredibly expensive: JVC RS4500, Panamorph Paladin Lens; Lumagen Processor AND calibration of same. And as was the case for purchasing the RS4500, I have no idea what kind of improvement I might expect with the addition of the Lumagen. If it is as profound as was the improvement from the 4500, I will be a very happy camper. I must confess that prior to finally seeing what HDR was all about (thanks to @beastaudio for spending time enlightening me) my "good enough" level for video was far less costly than my "good enough" for audio. That, clearly, has changed.
> 
> I guess the good news is that short of spending the price of a new home for the ultimate projector,* there are no more video upgrades to be made *(hopefully).


Love the theater and looks like a nice upgrade is coming with the Lumagen. We both know...deep down inside...you are lying to yourself with this quote. Thats a thing HT enthusiasts tell their wives to buy some time


----------



## audioguy

Frohlich said:


> Love the theater and looks like a nice upgrade is coming with the Lumagen. We both know...deep down inside...*you are lying to yourself* with this quote. Thats a thing HT enthusiasts tell their wives to buy some time


Thanks.

Certainly, past history would strongly suggest you are absolutely 100% correct. But I just can't imagine what would replace this particular projector or the Panamorph or the Lumagen. 

I have no doubt that eventually "screen walls" will get to a price that normal humans could afford but then they have to figure out a way to make them acoustically transparent. And at my age, I just don't see that happening in my life.

BUT, I've made similar "no more upgrade" proclamations before - multiple times, so we shall see


----------



## beastaudio

Since the lumagen can also do dynamic aspect switching and stuff, will you now get rid of the Paladin?


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> Since the lumagen can also do dynamic aspect switching and stuff, will you now get rid of the Paladin?


The Paladin provides an extra 30% brightness so I'm not sure why I would get rid of it. But you know way more about this stuff than I do.

What I am interested in on the Lumagen is it's ability to do, what I call "intelligent squeezing" so that maybe I can watch college football and other sports in 2:35 (vs 16x9) and lose less of the information on the top and/or bottom of the screen.


----------



## beastaudio

audioguy said:


> The Paladin provides an extra 30% brightness so I'm not sure why I would get rid of it. But you know way more about this stuff than I do.
> 
> What I am interested in on the Lumagen is it's ability to do, what I call "intelligent squeezing" so that maybe I can watch college football and other sports in 2:35 (vs 16x9) and lose less of the information on the top and/or bottom of the screen.


Which it will definitely do. I guess my question though would be for widescreen formats where the DCR gets you that added 30% due to zooming and removal of the black bars (vertical compression, therefore light is focused only on-screen), and if the lumagen accomplishes the same concept, but just doing it digitally rather than via a lens. If the Lumagen got even half the brightness back, I'd be inclined to just forget about an anamorphic lens altogether.

The dynamic tone mapping by itself is huge, the above is simply an added bonus. I'm already getting very tempted down this path myself. Anyone that has used the lumagen or madvr for the dynamic tone mapping says it's hands-down a must for anyone serious about HDR.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Hi Chuck,

Well my AVS internet buddy I'd like to add my congratulations to this next improvement to your video chain. 

You know if I/We were actually much-much more into the HDR, 4K Ultra HDR I would maybe go for the new/latest/greatest Lumagen.

We just don't so once I read that over on the Dedicated JVC RS4500 thread that wrapped it up for me adding it. 

I will say though since Cathy & I both are so in AWE of the picture from the base RS4500 all is A-OK on this end with what we have.

Enjoy Big-Guy,
Terry


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> I guess my question though would be for widescreen formats where the DCR gets you that added 30% due to zooming and removal of the black bars (vertical compression, therefore light is focused only on-screen), and if the lumagen accomplishes the same concept, but just doing it digitally rather than via a lens. If the Lumagen got even half the brightness back, I'd be inclined to just forget about an anamorphic lens altogether.


Shawn of Panamorph would have to address that. I think that is above my pay grade !

It would be nice if that were the case as I could sell my lens. But there must be something to it as there are lots of folks with Lumagen and Panamorph combinations!!


----------



## audioguy

tigerhonaker said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> Well my AVS internet buddy I'd like to add my congratulations to this next improvement to your video chain.
> 
> You know if I/We were actually much-much more into the HDR, 4K Ultra HDR I would maybe go for the new/latest/greatest Lumagen.
> 
> We just don't so once I read that over on the Dedicated JVC RS4500 thread that wrapped it up for me adding it.
> 
> I will say though since Cathy & I both are so in AWE of the picture from the base RS4500 all is A-OK on this end with what we have.
> 
> Enjoy Big-Guy,
> Terry


It is all about the way we use our theaters. We use ours for movies on shiny disc, as well as college football and occasionally an Amazon or Netflix movie that would benefit from the improved audio and video. And virtually all of my recent movie purchases have been HDR. So for the same reason I purchased the projector and anamorphic lens in the first place, adding DTM via the Lumagen really does make sense.

But you and your bride spend much more time in your theater viewing more non-HDR sources. Apparently, MUCH MORE. So the addition of a Lumagen makes less (if any) sense. As you said: "Cathy & I both are so in AWE of the picture from the base RS4500". There is a whole lot to be in awe about.


----------



## COACH2369

Looks like I found where the party is happening...
All this talk of video upgrades and I am still working with my "ancient" 3 year old RS500.. LOL

Sounds like some fun upgrades are a coming!


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> Looks like I found where the party is happening...
> All this talk of video upgrades and I am still working with my "ancient" 3 year old RS500.. LOL
> 
> Sounds like some fun upgrades are a coming!


Your "ancient" RS500 is a superb projector (that is what I had prior to this most recent splurge of insanity). And with the right kind of calibration, it works well for HDR. Improved tone mapping in general and dynamic tone mapping in particular can just take it to the next level. The beauty of the Lumagen is that is can be around for many years and is "projector agnostic".

Your invite is still open!!


----------



## beastaudio

audioguy said:


> Shawn of Panamorph would have to address that. I think that is above my pay grade !
> 
> It would be nice if that were the case as I could sell my lens. But there must be something to it as there are lots of folks with Lumagen and Panamorph combinations!!


I am in contact now with Kris actually so he could shine some light on the subject as well.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> The Paladin provides an extra 30% brightness so I'm not sure why I would get rid of it. But you know way more about this stuff than I do.
> 
> 
> 
> What I am interested in on the Lumagen is it's ability to do, what I call "intelligent squeezing" so that maybe I can watch college football and other sports in 2:35 (vs 16x9) and lose less of the information on the top and/or bottom of the screen.




Chuck, my man! Go to the 47 second mark of this video I made in 2012 on how to setup Lumagens to do this. It starts with The Avengers, a 16:9 blu ray, and a the hit of a button, it completely fills my then-2:35 screen:






You’ll find that the intelligent squeezing is quite pleasing! 

In 2013, I had a massive Super Bowl party using this exact method—everyone was floored by the experience of the big game on the 120” 2:35 widescreen I was rocking back then! A couple guys were into projection, but had only seen football games with bars on the sides....it blew their minds that I was filling the screen! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

Matt: Thanks so much. It is very natural looking. Is that something the Lumagen can do automatically when it sees 16x9 material?

College football is going to be better than ever (as are the few 16x9 discs I own). Non linear stretch and Dynamic Tone Mapping. A birthday present from me to me - a few months early


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Matt: Thanks so much. It is very natural looking. Is that something the Lumagen can do automatically when it sees 16x9 material?
> 
> 
> 
> College football is going to be better than ever (as are the few 16x9 discs I own). Non linear stretch and Dynamic Tone Mapping. A birthday present from me to me - a few months early


The auto-detect feature is about 95% perfect. A couple hiccups here and there...I used to use it, but I think mapping a button is the best solution. You'll be using it more and more IMAX enhanced discs ate released 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## beastaudio

BrolicBeast said:


> The auto-detect feature is about 95% perfect. A couple hiccups here and there...I used to use it, but u think mapping a button is the best solution. You'll be using it more and more IMAX enhanced discs ate released
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I had just asked this in the lumagen thread and hadn't gotten a response so thank you for that. I was curious about how well the lumagen handles the mixed AR movies and if it was all fully automatic. It appears from your response that it is. Thanks Matt.


----------



## BrolicBeast

beastaudio said:


> I had just asked this in the lumagen thread and hadn't gotten a response so thank you for that. I was curious about how well the lumagen handles the mixed AR movies and if it was all fully automatic. It appears from your response that it is. Thanks Matt.


Happy to help! So the variable aspect ratio movies....there's about a half second lag before the Lumagen changes the AR....that's an impressively short processing time, but it can take a viewer out of the experience. My preference is in the dark Knight clip in the video I posted above...engage cropping above and below the screen border so the image is seamless throughout. When the scene transitions from Harvey Dent reaching for joker to Bruce Wayne's Lamborghini....that's a 2:35-to-IMAX 16:9 transition, but it's seamlessly all 2:35 onscreen. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Apparently, it's not over until it's over.


 Let me fix that for you...


*"It's never over!"*


I can't count how many times I've heard you say: "I'm done with upgrades." :grin::wink:


The only good news is that you no longer blame ME for your upgrade-itis.  



Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Let me fix that for you...
> 
> 
> *"It's never over!"*


Apparently !!




> I can't count how many times I've heard you say: "I'm done with upgrades." :grin::wink:


Approximately 4 (but who's counting)



> The only good news is that you no longer blame ME for your upgrade-itis.


Of course I don't blame you any longer (there are now others who I can point my finger at). Who I *DO* blame is AVS Forum --- and my own addictive personality !!!!


----------



## nbynw

audioguy said:


> The ONLY thing in the AV department I am lacking is a SUPER streaming device for my stored MKV files. The Apple TV would be it if it could handle full bitstream Atmos, but it can't. So for now I am using the Dune. It works and the audio and video are fine but the interface is still too clunky for me.


I am in the exact same predicament. I know many people tout the nvidia shield but I have not found it to be very easy to setup to achieve the lossless audio and bit for bit video I require.

I would be curious to know where you are at with this now. I am using my oppo203 network to access my mkv files on my synology ds918+ nas. The video and audio is perfect but the user interface is slow and not very attractive. I wanted that PLEX/K-Scape appearance to showcase the significant investment in titles! Plus the metadata etc just makes it nicer for browsing 100s of movies.


----------



## audioguy

nbynw said:


> I am in the exact same predicament. I know many people tout the nvidia shield but I have not found it to be very easy to setup to achieve the lossless audio and bit for bit video I require.
> 
> I would be curious to know where you are at with this now. I am using my oppo203 network to access my mkv files on my synology ds918+ nas. The video and audio is perfect but the user interface is slow and not very attractive. I wanted that PLEX/K-Scape appearance to showcase the significant investment in titles! Plus the metadata etc just makes it nicer for browsing 100s of movies.


I got rid of the Dune and am now using Nvidia with Plex. The ONLY thing I don't like about Plex is it always upsamples 1080P to 4K (since I have a 4K projector) and I want my Lumagen to do that. There are two other apps that I have tried that do not upsample (MrMC and Kodi) and those interfaces are as bad as the Dune. But for now, I will live with those. I used my Oppo for a while, but it is by far the most user unfriendly interface,


----------



## nbynw

audioguy said:


> I got rid of the Dune and am now using Nvidia with Plex. The ONLY thing I don't like about Plex is it always upsamples 1080P to 4K (since I have a 4K projector) and I want my Lumagen to do that. There are two other apps that I have tried that do not upsample (MrMC and Kodi) and those interfaces are as bad as the Dune. But for now, I will live with those. I used my Oppo for a while, but it is by far the most user unfriendly interface,


OK - Im going back to PLEX. I started with PLEX, then read that KODI was better so tinkered with that for a few days. I found KODI to be quite slow and visually unappealing and just generally unacceptable. I will investigate PLEX in the coming days. I know what you mean about the upscaling...I own a Lumagen also.

Thanks very much


----------



## beastaudio

craig john said:


> The only good news is that you no longer blame ME for your upgrade-itis.
> 
> 
> 
> Craig





audioguy said:


> Of course I don't blame you any longer (there are now others who I can point my finger at).


Yea now I get mentioned by Chuck as his inspiration to do all these crazy video upgrades. All because I helped him get a taste of proper HDR/2020 with his old decrepit rs600. Didn't even have to twist his arm on all these latest upgrades. It's me now, so you're welcome Craig.


----------



## craig john

beastaudio said:


> Yea now I get mentioned by Chuck as his inspiration to do all these crazy video upgrades. All because I helped him get a taste of proper HDR/2020 with his old decrepit rs600. Didn't even have to twist his arm on all these latest upgrades. It's me now, so you're welcome Craig.



THANK YOU!!! :grin:


----------



## beastaudio

craig john said:


> THANK YOU!!! :grin:


No prob! Now it's me that sees the notification that Chuck has mentioned me to which I wonder, "What thousands of dollars is he putting over my head now?" Haha. I hope he isn't listening.


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> Yea now I get mentioned by Chuck as his inspiration to do all these crazy video upgrades. All because I helped him get a taste of proper HDR/2020 with his old decrepit rs600. Didn't even have to twist his arm on all these latest upgrades. It's me now, so you're welcome Craig.


While it is fun to "blame" someone for "forcing me to spend" obscene amounts of money for A/V equipment, I could not be more pleased with the over the top improvements these changes have made in the theater. For the moment, (at least) not a lot of places to spend big bucks - so I guess I will just have to enjoy what I already have (now THAT'S a unique concept) !!


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> While it is fun to "blame" someone for "forcing me to spend" obscene amounts of money for A/V equipment, I could not be more pleased with the over the top improvements these changes have made in the theater. For the moment, (at least) not a lot of places to spend big bucks - so I guess I will just have to enjoy what I already have (now THAT'S a unique concept) !!


You say things like "no more upgrades" and "I'm content", and my mind only sees this:









No such thing as being "done" in this hobby!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> You say things like "no more upgrades" and "I'm content", and my mind only sees this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No such thing as being "done" in this hobby!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


My college degree was in Applied Math (156 years ago) and that chart you displayed gave me heart palpitations, sweaty palms, and other such unpleasant feelings.


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> My college degree was in Applied Math (156 years ago) and that chart you displayed gave me heart palpitations, sweaty palms, and other such unpleasant feelings.


I doubled in Math and Physics since that combo got me out of a foreign language requirement. All emotions and feelings were burned out of me.


----------



## jamin

And I think math is the first foreign language that should be taught and mandatory at that 😊
Uh, not that I'm any good at foreign language, hah.


----------



## audioguy

appelz said:


> I doubled in Math and Physics since that combo got me out of a foreign language requirement. All emotions and feelings were burned out of me.


My plan was to get a Masters in Math and in order to do that, I was required to take either Russian or scientific German. I chose the later - and did poorly - and then chose not to go after the Masters !!


----------



## AudioFan810

Hi...just checking how the Lumagen works for you after the calibration and if you got the "intelligent squeezing" working for you, yet? If so, how is that going for you? A Lumagen Radiance Pro is on my list for our upcoming media room. I'm seriously thinking of getting Kris Deerling to come to my house to do the calibration when we are ready.

Thanks,
Ralph


----------



## audioguy

AudioFan810 said:


> Hi...just checking how the Lumagen works for you after the calibration and if you got the "intelligent squeezing" working for you, yet? If so, how is that going for you? A Lumagen Radiance Pro is on my list for our upcoming media room. I'm seriously thinking of getting Kris Deerling to come to my house to do the calibration when we are ready.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ralph


I am still living with the calibration on the 4500 done by ChadB and only using the Lumagen for DTM. Craig Rounds, the person from whom I purchased the Lumagen and who will do the calibrations is waiting (at my request) for someone else near me to get his Lumagen ready so that I can share travel expenses with him and save some money. 

And "living with" is still amazing. You can turn DTM on and off and watch what it does to the image. Sometimes subtle and sometimes jaw dropping, but in 95% of the cases, a great improvement. And each upgrade improves upon what is already a great product. I am very anxious to see what it looks like once Craig does his 3D LUT calibrations, primarily using only the Lumagen vs doing most in the projector.

As for "seriously thinking" about getting a Lumagen, don't. Just buy one. Money notwithstanding, what it does with HDR and DTM makes it a "required" component for any serious projector-based home theater. Can you "get by" without one? Of course, but don't.

Whether you use Craig Rounds or Kris Deering or some other super qualified calibrator, I agree that is really the best course unless you know how to do those kinds of things yourself. I don't so have always had my PJ's calibrated. I actually had my first Runco projector calibrated by Runco. Then all of my other CRTs were calibrated by a guy named John Gannon. An excellent calibrator and a great guy who died way too young. ChadB has done my last two projectors. And actually Adam Pelz (the Trinnov/Datasat whiz kid) re-calibrated my previous RS500 when I installed a new bulb and everything turned green.

And I have not diddled with "intelligent squeezing" yet as I have been trying to find a better solution for a player to use to view my ripped movies, and it has taken way too much time. *ALL* of them I have tried (AppleTV, Dune, Nvidia/Plex and now Zidoo) have various serious shortcomings so it is all about selecting the one whose shortcomings you can live with. And it appears I will be going back to the Shield given there is a work-around (using the Lumagen) of it's only serious shortcoming.

Anyway, that is my situation, and sorry for sort of wandering OT!


----------



## AudioFan810

Thanks for the update. The Lumagen RP is definitely on my to-buy list. The serious part for thinking is having KD travel to my house for calibration services...the critical issue being travel cost . Paying solely for KD's travel time and cost will eat a lot out of my equipment budget. I like what you are doing...maybe I can find someone(s) in my area who will be interested in his services and will split the travel cost.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Hey Chuck! Just got my second Shield for the Dolby Atmos Gym! Working very well—integrates seamlessly with the Shield in the cinema, thanks to Plex. I can pause in the cinema, and pick up where I left off in the gym when I start a workout. Really cool stuff. 

Just sharing in case you wanted to get a second shield for somewhere else in the house for seamless playback across different locations. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

Thanks.

The only TV we use has Plex as a built in app!! The guy that will be doing my video calibration bought Shields but is using Kodi and can get it to pass source video and access all of my sub folders. I’m using Plex now but will try Kodi when he comes,


----------



## audioguy

Ronaldmc said:


> Ooo. This is awesome!I envy you!


Thank you. I do very much appreciate your kind response. It only took 40+ years to finally get to this point!


----------



## luv2fly3

Had to swing over and check out your room. Very impressive design and equipment list!! Looks very cool. I also noticed you referenced Atlanta Home Theater as a supplier. Did you ever connect with Scott the owner?


----------



## BrolicBeast

Waiting to read your impressions on Lumagen calibration. I’ve downloaded the latest DTM update and it shines (pun intended) on my HDR torture tests. Have you been creating demo scenes for HDR? I’m thinking about adding a specific HDR Demo Playlist to my Plex library. If I do, I’ll let you know so you can check it out in my Plex library when Craig Rounds does your calibration. Also—be sure to download the Shield update 8.0!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

luv2fly3 said:


> Had to swing over and check out your room. Very impressive design and equipment list!! Looks very cool. I also noticed you referenced Atlanta Home Theater as a supplier. Did you ever connect with Scott the owner?


Thank you for the kind comments. My room design is "function over form" so not nearly as attractive as many others on this forum. But the image and sound give me what I wanted. 

I've known Scott for about 23 years. I was the Marketing Director for Cambridge Signal Technology who designed, built and sold the SigTech digital room correction product and he became a dealer for that product. He then became a customer of mine for another (non audio) business that I owned. In the last 4 or 5 years, I have done the audio calibrations for those clients of his who have purchased a Datasat or Trinnov - he trusts my ears and skill sets. He runs a very successful business.

What is your connection to Scott?


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Waiting to read your impressions on Lumagen calibration. I’ve downloaded the latest DTM update and it shines (pun intended) on my HDR torture tests. Have you been creating demo scenes for HDR? I’m thinking about adding a specific HDR Demo Playlist to my Plex library. If I do, I’ll let you know so you can check it out in my Plex library when Craig Rounds does your calibration. Also—be sure to download the Shield update 8.0!


I did the Shield update a few days ago. I REALLY like the options it provided to clean up the interface.

Craig is here now. He got in yesterday afternoon, and did a lot of his stuff and is up stairs now doing whatever he does? He will be here the rest of today and leave tomorrow AM for another client in Atlanta. He is going to help me figure out how to get the Shield to NOT up-convert 1080P stuff (he used Kodi instead of Plex) so the Lumagen can do that.

Prior to him getting here, I did the new Lumagen firmware update and the results were a bit surprising. Prior to this release, when I switched DTM on and off, "On" was always brighter, and now "Off" is, but "On" shows more details. He and Kris Deering both saw the same thing and discussed with Jim. I have no issue with that except it will be harder to "quickly" demonstrate to a friend (and my better half) how well the Lumagen does what it does. What little content I have looked at while he is doing his magic is truly stunning. For some reason, the image just looks "sharper" and "cleaner" as well as more detailed with unreal colors (he uses 3D LUTs). I am also going to have him do a calibration on high laser, so that when I get a hush box built, I can use high laser as necessary. Even on mid-laser, I find the sound a bit problematic but most don't.

He is not a fan (at all) of NLS but I am going to have him show me how to set it up so I can do so for some 16x9 content, primarily college football.

I would love to see your your HDR demo list, but more importantly, maybe spend some time on the phone so you can explain how you find and extract and compile individual scenes from your MKV files to end up with demo clips. If I can get that done, I will have 98% of the functionality I had when I had my Kaleidescape (at about 1/10th the cost).


----------



## BrolicBeast

Sure man—I’d be happy to walk you through the process Of demo creation. I ended up creating a playlist for DTM in 4k demos called: Demo: Dynamic Tone Mapping.

Access my Plex library and take some of those scenes for a stroll. I agree—everything looks clearer and sharper with DTM engaged. For a great picture, audio, and a video that immediately appeared clearer and sharper after DTM, try “Greatest Showman - Never Enough” Takes place in a dimly lit auditorium with a spotlight and great skin tone definition. 

Play it at reference, and have the wife watch too. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Sure man—I’d be happy to walk you through the process Of demo creation. I ended up creating a playlist for DTM in 4k demos called: Demo: Dynamic Tone Mapping.
> 
> Access my Plex library and take some of those scenes for a stroll. I agree—everything looks clearer and sharper with DTM engaged. For a great picture, audio, and a video that immediately appeared clearer and sharper after DTM, try “Greatest Showman - Never Enough” Takes place in a dimly lit auditorium with a spotlight and great skin tone definition.
> 
> Play it at reference, and have the wife watch too.


Thanks. Will do. My wife was already a huge fan of the projector so she could not imagine why I "needed" this capability


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Thanks. Will do. My wife was already a huge fan of the projector so she could not imagine why I "needed" this capability




No problem! Yeah, play that scene for her—she will be captivated by the beautiful song, the visuals, and the “experience.” Have Craig sit in too. Also, definitely try the “Sicario 2 -Spec Ops” scene. For me, that’s the scene that changed the most drastically after installing DTM. 

Edit: The Playlist might be called “HDR Performance Tests” but i think I named it Demo: Dynamic Tone Mapping. Those were the two names I was bouncing between. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## luv2fly3

audioguy said:


> Thank you for the kind comments. My room design is "function over form" so not nearly as attractive as many others on this forum. But the image and sound give me what I wanted.
> 
> I've known Scott for about 23 years. I was the Marketing Director for Cambridge Signal Technology who designed, built and sold the SigTech digital room correction product and he became a dealer for that product. He then became a customer of mine for another (non audio) business that I owned. In the last 4 or 5 years, I have done the audio calibrations for those clients of his who have purchased a Datasat or Trinnov - he trusts my ears and skill sets. He runs a very successful business.
> 
> What is your connection to Scott?


Very cool! Scott is my first cousin and has helped me in my build with many of the components I use. Small world! 

Again, awesome space. I can only imagine the quality you get out of your impressive list of equipment! And I think the "form" looks great!


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> The technology is already there. Do a google search of “Deepfake.” It’s a bit unnerving—especially what one guy did in superimposing Steve Buscemi’s face onto Jennifer Lawrence’s head/body. It looks REAL....and it was done, not in a Hollywood studio, but in someone’s house!


WOW. Interesting but super scary stuff. I watched a TED Talk on this. 



> I am a little upset that True Lies was never released on Blu Ray. In my opinion, it’s one of the greatest action movies ever made. It has EVERYTHING in it!!!! I hope to see it eventually in 4k....please, no film grain on Jamie-Lee Curtis’ hotel scene!


"The Abyss" was made for 3D audio, since most of it was done below water. It was also made for 4K/HDR. I just hope I live long enough to see both of these end up on an immersive audio/4K HDR disc



> Hey, sub-twin...Did you adjust your listening mode for Alita? I started watching in my Ultra mode and the first bass note when the garbage was falling at the very beginning of the movie had my ear drums quaking....had to quickly had to switch to the more conventional “flat, minimal bass shelf” listening mode that I use for music. I think the 4k discs is 9db hotter than the Blu Ray disc.


I only have one LFE setting. I have experimented and experimented and experimented with I can't remember how many target curves over the last 6 years. This one is as good as I want it to be without spending my life creating one target curve per movie!


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> WOW. Interesting but super scary stuff. I watched a TED Talk on this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The Abyss" was made for 3D audio, since most of it was done below water. It was also made for 4K/HDR. I just hope I live long enough to see both of these end up on an immersive audio/4K HDR disc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I only have one LFE setting. I have experimented and experimented and experimented with I can't remember how many target curves over the last 6 years. This one is as good as I want it to be without spending my life creating one target curve per movie!




Yeah man, it’s uber scary!!

I’ve actually never seen the Abyss—would you recommend it from a story standpoint? I can watch it on Amazon Prime, but I always skip over it. 

Ahh, one LFE setting? Then you truly have reached nirvana. I do have some midrange changes in my modes as well (particularly the Music setting) but have three different bass levels—mostly shelf related below 30Hz.

Sounds like you’re completely dialed in for both audio and video... any G2Gs in your future? I have Priceline dot com saved in my favorites menu for events such as this! Lol. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Yeah man, it’s uber scary!!
> 
> I’ve actually never seen the Abyss—would you recommend it from a story standpoint? I can watch it on Amazon Prime, but I always skip over it.
> 
> Ahh, one LFE setting? Then you truly have reached nirvana. I do have some midrange changes in my modes as well (particularly the Music setting) but have three different bass levels—mostly shelf related below 30Hz.
> 
> Sounds like you’re completely dialed in for both audio and video... any G2Gs in your future? I have Priceline dot com saved in my favorites menu for events such as this! Lol.


The Abyss (*ONLY* The Directors Cut), is one of my very favorite movies. There is just something about it that I really enjoyed. The first time I saw it, I thought it was a lousy movie but then I saw the Directors Cut (on Laser Disc) and then it all made sense and became a completely different film. If you can't find the Directors Cut, don't bother watching it!

Well for movies I only have one LFE setting. But I have two for music and a fourth for Concert Videos. Since concert videos are not recorded under the "rules" of movies, the bass is always way too hot. And since I am a huge fan of 70's rock, and since on virtually all of those recording the bass is anemic, I have one with the bass pumped up just a tad.

As it relates to GTGs: I have had lots of visitors in my last 3 theaters. The closest thing I have had that might be considered a GTG, was during an Atlanta CEDIA, where Mark Seaton, @Peter M, Itai Ben-Gal of iRule fame and one other individual whose name escapes me at the moment came by to hear my all Seaton system. I only have 4 seats and one of them is awful since there is the left surround sitting in your ear (and where I sit when we have guests).

But while I have not ever thought about having an official GTG, most folks are welcome to get in touch with me and request a visit. But since I am 1.5 hours east of Atlanta, I am not very convenient.

But as a warning to anyone who does visit, and the cost of the visit notwithstanding, the last two visitors left my home and spent a rather substantive amount of $$ for new equipment. In fact, both purchased Trinnov's and the attendant stuff that goes with them (amps, etc).

And yes, the theater is pretty well dialed in. There are some recommended setting changes on the Lumagen thread posted by Jim Peterson which I may implement, but short of that, nothing left to do. Well almost nothing. Since, over the last few years I have swapped out almost every piece of equipment I owned, the back of my equipment rack is a MESS. The last time I cleaned it up took eight 10 hour days, so I'm not looking forward to getting started.

So given no new toys to buy, I am spending more money on movies - both new and re-purchases of older movies that have been remastered to 4K/HDR and usually with improved audio. My most recent purchase (that has yet to arrive) is "The Hulk" with Ed Norton. Based upon a number of reviews I have read, the audio is incredibly immersive (DTS:X) and the video is greatly improved as well.

So come visit, I would love to meet you and help you spend more of your money.


----------



## BrolicBeast

My only saving grace that our systems are somewhat similar. I am scared that if I see your projector in action, I might start selling important things to help fund it!

BTW, meant to ask—were the DTM clips on Plex helpful? Could be Craig Rounds has his own, much better battery of tests. If so, could you share what they were? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> My only saving grace that our systems are somewhat similar. I am scared that if I see your projector in action, I might start selling important things to help fund it!
> 
> BTW, meant to ask—were the DTM clips on Plex helpful? Could be Craig Rounds has his own, much better battery of tests. If so, could you share what they were?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


My Shield/Plex system is busted due to the new firmware update, so looking at your HDR titles will have to wait!!

But lest you forget, there is one huge audio difference in our two systems. Regardless of how good your processor is (and it is excellent) I am very comfortable that it won't do what the Trinnov will. In fact, nothing else will. You can replace the bulb in your PJ, have someone calibrate your projector/Lumagen and get by very nicely for quite some time. But you don't want to hear the Trinnov (picture here: money flying out of your wallet) - I promise!!


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> My Shield/Plex system is busted due to the new firmware update, so looking at your HDR titles will have to wait!!
> 
> 
> 
> But lest you forget, there is one huge audio difference in our two systems. Regardless of how good your processor is (and it is excellent) I am very comfortable that it won't do what the Trinnov will. In fact, nothing else will. You can replace the bulb in your PJ, have someone calibrate your projector/Lumagen and get by very nicely for quite some time. But you don't want to hear the Trinnov (picture here: money flying out of your wallet) - I promise!!


I concur... There is simply no substitute for 100% native. If onlyyyy the 16 had a few more channels...But that's a $35k difference..... And I'm thinking about going Porsche when my current vehicles is paid off. Whatever I don't get for the theater in the next year or so will probably never be "got!" 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> I concur... There is simply no substitute for 100% native. If onlyyyy the 16 had a few more channels...But that's a $35k difference..... And I'm thinking about going Porsche when my current vehicles is paid off. Whatever I don't get for the theater in the next year or so* will probably never be "got*!"


You've been at this long enough to know the word "never" should not be used when speaking about equipment changes/upgrades

I thought you had 9 bed channels and 9 heights?

I'm a big Porche fan. First owned a 944, then three 911's (Cabriolet, Targa, and Coupe) and then a Boxter - and the Boxter was easily my favorite. I want to get another Boxter but but my wife won't drive a manual shift. Very fun cars to drive.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> You've been at this long enough to know the word "never" should not be used when speaking about equipment changes/upgrades
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you had 9 bed channels and 9 heights?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a big Porche fan. First owned a 944, then three 911's (Cabriolet, Targa, and Coupe) and then a Boxter - and the Boxter was easily my favorite. I want to get another Boxter but but my wife won't drive a manual shift. Very fun cars to drive.


Waitttt.... You liked the boxter more than the 911's? This is why I shouldn't believe everything I see on YouTube. I can't stand manual... Id get their automatic, which actually shifts faster than a human can.

I have 11 bed and six heights, along with two sub locations (four onfront wall EQd as one, and four on rear wall EQd as one).

and you are definitely right. I should know better by now to say anything like "never"....the journey will never end! I'll be in Heaven doing spirals, using my wings like the blades in a rotary subwoofer. Lolol 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Waitttt.... You liked the boxter more than the 911's? This is why I shouldn't believe everything I see on YouTube. I can't stand manual... Id get their automatic, which actually shifts faster than a human can.


It's is not the speed of the shifting I am interested in, but the "experience " of the shifting. I just have trouble saying "sports car"and "automatic transmission" in the same sentence. BUT, I may go drive one and see what it is like. And If I end up buying one, it will be your fault  To the extent you want to delay the purchase of one of these cars, don't test drive one!!!!!



> I have 11 bed and six heights, along with two sub locations (four onfront wall EQd as one, and four on rear wall EQd as one).


 Two channel short! (you would need the miniDSP to deal with the subs in that case - which you no longer have and is still in the box it was sent to me in)



> and you are definitely right. I should know better by now to say anything like "never"....the journey will never end! I'll be in Heaven doing spirals, using my wings like the blades in a rotary subwoofer. Lolol


Yep. That pretty much sums it up.


----------



## beastaudio

audioguy said:


> My Shield/Plex system is busted due to the new firmware update, so looking at your HDR titles will have to wait!!
> 
> But lest you forget, there is one huge audio difference in our two systems. Regardless of how good your processor is (and it is excellent) I am very comfortable that it won't do what the Trinnov will. In fact, nothing else will. You can replace the bulb in your PJ, have someone calibrate your projector/Lumagen and get by very nicely for quite some time. But you don't want to hear the Trinnov (picture here: money flying out of your wallet) - I promise!!


Yea that settles it for me. Im not coming....ever. I haven't heard a trinnov yet, and don't plan to until I am sliding it into my very own rack.


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> Yea that settles it for me. Im not coming....ever. I haven't heard a trinnov yet, and don't plan to until I am sliding it into my very own rack.


When you get to that point, you will be one happy camper.


----------



## BrolicBeast

beastaudio said:


> Yea that settles it for me. Im not coming....ever. I haven't heard a trinnov yet, and don't plan to until I am sliding it into my very own rack.




Beast, we need to stick together. If you see me talking all crazy about visiting Chuck, you have to step in and stop me. I will do the same if I see you posting about visiting. We need to avoid his house like the fiscal plague! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Beast, we need to stick together. If you see me talking all crazy about visiting Chuck, you have to step in and stop me. I will do the same if I see you posting about visiting. We need to avoid his house like the fiscal plague!


Probably a wise move. The "lust" factor certainly increases when you actually experience a product (e.g. drive a Porche, look at a new home; listen to/watch a home theater, etc).

I can't even imagine how much money I would have saved had I never heard about AVSForum. In fact, every product in my rack and in my room is a direct result of this website (and I, too, visited someone once (who posts on this website) and immediately bought speakers like his).

Dangerous stuff!!


----------



## beastaudio

BrolicBeast said:


> Beast, we need to stick together. If you see me talking all crazy about visiting Chuck, you have to step in and stop me. I will do the same if I see you posting about visiting. We need to avoid his house like the fiscal plague!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Yea you gotta get past me to get to him on the interstate so I will be sure just to intercept one way or another. 



audioguy said:


> Probably a wise move. The "lust" factor certainly increases when you actually experience a product (e.g. drive a Porche, look at a new home; listen to/watch a home theater, etc).
> 
> I can't even imagine how much money I would have saved had I never heard about AVSForum. In fact, every product in my rack and in my room is a direct result of this website (and I, too, visited someone once (who posts on this website) and immediately bought speakers like his).
> 
> Dangerous stuff!!


Isn't all that the truth. Still think my greatest achievement was completely inadvertently getting you to purchase that 4500 though. I didn't even mention the thing and still somehow take the blame, lol.


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> Still think my greatest achievement was completely inadvertently getting you to purchase that 4500 though. I didn't even mention the thing and still somehow take the blame, lol.


Blame now = credit. After having the Lumangen/RS4500 calibrated, I am blown away by the image. Some of the HDR images are simply stunning. 

So THANKS !!


----------



## beastaudio

audioguy said:


> Blame now = credit. After having the Lumangen/RS4500 calibrated, I am blown away by the image. Some of the HDR images are simply stunning.
> 
> So THANKS !!


I would have totally tried to get on Craig's schedule while he was making the rounds (pun intended) and tried my best to coerce him into coming up to Asheville for a calibration. I really, REALLY need to get a good calibration done now that the nx7 is going to be staying for a long while... While my own settings look good, I know there is much more to get out of the machine.


----------



## audioguy

The NX 7 and 9 are apparently great projectors. I think both Kris Deering and Craig Rounds have RS3000/NX9, and Kris has stated he believes the RS3000 to be superior in many ways to the RS4500. And according to Craig, who left my home to calibrate an RS2000/Lumagen, he thinks the RS2000/NX7 is about as close as you can imagine to the NX9. If it were not for my choosing to make a "life long purchase" and, hence the laser based 4500, the NX7 would have been my choice. 

Apparently a really wonderful machine!!


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> The NX 7 and 9 are apparently great projectors. I think both Kris Deering and Craig Rounds have RS3000/NX9, and Kris has stated he believes the RS3000 to be superior in many ways to the RS4500. And according to Craig, who left my home to calibrate an RS2000/Lumagen, he thinks the RS2000/NX7 is about as close as you can imagine to the NX9. If it were not for my choosing to make a "life long purchase" and, hence the laser based 4500, the NX7 would have been my choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently a really wonderful machine!!


Wait...the NX7? Really? I have some thinking to do...

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Wait...the NX7? Really? I have some thinking to do...


Had I not been willing to buy my "last projector", the NX7 would have been my choice. Until the RS4500, I HAVE NEVER bought the top of the line projector. Calibrated PROFESSIONALLY by one of the guys who really knows their stuff (e.g. Craig Rounds or Kris Derring or ...), I would bet you would be very hard pressed to tell the difference between a NX7 and NX9 if they were not sitting right next to each other.. And the price difference would easily pay for the calibration (and a Panamorph lens if desired). 

But that's just me (being my practical self). And I am willing to bet that laser projectors will continue drop in price and by the time you get tired of an NX7, laser will be the obvious choice.


----------



## beastaudio

BrolicBeast said:


> Wait...the NX7? Really? I have some thinking to do...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk





audioguy said:


> Had I not been willing to buy my "last projector", the NX7 would have been my choice. Until the RS4500, I HAVE NEVER bought the top of the line projector. Calibrated PROFESSIONALLY by one of the guys who really knows their stuff (e.g. Craig Rounds or Kris Derring or ...), I would bet you would be very hard pressed to tell the difference between a NX7 and NX9 if they were not sitting right next to each other.. And the price difference would easily pay for the calibration (and a Panamorph lens if desired).
> 
> But that's just me (being my practical self). And I am willing to bet that laser projectors will continue drop in price and by the time you get tired of an NX7, laser will be the obvious choice.


Having owned the last 4 lines of JVC Pj's in their "Mid level" model i.e. rs500,520,540 and now nx7, I will back these statements up 100%. The more I watch the nx7, the less subtle I feel the move was up from the prior e-shift PJ's. As long as you don't need the additional brightness the 4500 provides for the larger screens, the nx7 is a incredible image. Running 120" wide scope on a ~1.1 gain screen I have no issues with brightness to say the least. I haven't even gotten my PJ calibrated yet but straight out of the box it throws a pretty incredible image.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Hmmm....I’m running the JVC RS520, but didn’t realize the NX7 came so close. I do need a lot of output for my screen, but if the NX7 matches the RS520, I’m happy with that! The last few posts really have me pondering the NX7. The NX9 would be nice, but it sounds like the differences may not be large enough to justify. The RS4500 is so far from my current budgetary capabilities (saving down payment for a rather exotic mode of transportation), even if the RS4500 had a million lumens, I’d still have to watch from the sidelines! Lol. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## COACH2369

beastaudio said:


> Having owned the last 4 lines of JVC Pj's in their "Mid level" model i.e. rs500,520,540 and now nx7, I will back these statements up 100%. The more I watch the nx7, the less subtle I feel the move was up from the prior e-shift PJ's. As long as you don't need the additional brightness the 4500 provides for the larger screens, the nx7 is a incredible image. Running 120" wide scope on a ~1.1 gain screen I have no issues with brightness to say the least. I haven't even gotten my PJ calibrated yet but straight out of the box it throws a pretty incredible image.


I just spent my first weekend with my NX7. I came from a well calibrated RS500 and I couldn't agree more with the out of the box picture the NX7 throws. Both standard blu-rays and 4K.
The great thing, like Beast said, is the brightness seems to be a lot better than I was expecting....and I have been running mine in low lamp mode. 
Looking forward to seeing what a calibration brings to the table.

Now if I could afford that Trinnov everyone keeps talking about.


----------



## audioguy

Importantly, the difference in MSRP price between the NX7 and NX9 (~$10,000) will pay for a Lumagen OR a Panamorph (with some strong negotiation, maybe almost both). Then it becomes no contest. The Panamorph buys you 30% to 38% light increase depending on which of the two lens you buy, and of course the Lumagen buys you DTM, improved upscaling, etc. And, both the Lumagen and Panamorph can be used with any future projector you might end up with.

Of course, if you are like Brolic, then the Panamorph doesn't buy you as much unless he chooses to leave the "dark side" and come permanently join us of the scope crowd.


----------



## beastaudio

Shoot, Im still using my paltry little uh380 with pretty solid results... It's better than nothing! The slight curvature I see at the screen edges is really only noticeable when looking at patterns or ESPN with the scrolling bar at the bottom. Normal movie content, the benefits far outweigh the negatives.


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> Shoot, Im still using my paltry little uh380 with pretty solid results... It's better than nothing! The slight curvature I see at the screen edges is really only noticeable when looking at patterns or ESPN with the scrolling bar at the bottom. Normal movie content, the benefits far outweigh the negatives.


Do you have or are you thinking of getting a Lumagen? I have the curve as well but I just use a small amount of over-scan and "presto", it is not noticeable.


----------



## beastaudio

audioguy said:


> Do you have or are you thinking of getting a Lumagen? I have the curve as well but I just use a small amount of over-scan and "presto", it is not noticeable.


I don't have a lumagen, nor the coin to drop on one at least at the moment...or likely in the near future. With a little lady on the way, my priorities will be changing pretty drastically


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> I don't have a lumagen, nor the coin to drop on one at least at the moment...or likely in the near future. With a little lady on the way, my priorities will be changing pretty drastically


That's great news. And that little lady will provide you a lot more joy and entertainment than a Lumagen or most anything else.

Congrats!!


----------



## BrolicBeast

beastaudio said:


> I don't have a lumagen, nor the coin to drop on one at least at the moment...or likely in the near future. With a little lady on the way, my priorities will be changing pretty drastically




We just had two little ladies back to back—and I’ll definitely recommend sitting out on any major upgrades for a while. You won’t have time to use your theater for a month or two—maybe more. Even if you have time, you’ll be so tired you won’t want to. (If you already have kids, then you already know this!) Congratulations on the pending princess’ entry into the world! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## BrolicBeast

COACH2369 said:


> I just spent my first weekend with my NX7. I came from a well calibrated RS500 and I couldn't agree more with the out of the box picture the NX7 throws. Both standard blu-rays and 4K.
> 
> The great thing, like Beast said, is the brightness seems to be a lot better than I was expecting....and I have been running mine in low lamp mode.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing what a calibration brings to the table.
> 
> 
> 
> Now if I could afford that Trinnov everyone keeps talking about.




Coach! What’s up man...I have a question for you, @audioguy, and @beastaudio: In terms of resolution, was the difference between the 4k-Eshift of your previous generation projectors and the Native 4k of your current projectors a significant one? Like—looking at them one after the other (not side by side), would the uptick in resolution be blatantly obvious? This might be the deciding factor, as I’m honestly VERY satisfied with my JVC RS520 (from the mid-2017 model year that you guys recently upgraded from). 

I know it will certainly be better, but is it night and day? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Coach! What’s up man...I have a question for you, @audioguy, and @beastaudio: In terms of resolution, was the difference between the 4k-Eshift of your previous generation projectors and the Native 4k of your current projectors a significant one? Like—looking at them one after the other (not side by side), would the uptick in resolution be blatantly obvious? This might be the deciding factor, as I’m honestly VERY satisfied with my JVC RS520 (from the mid-2017 model year that you guys recently upgraded from).
> 
> I know it will certainly be better, but is it night and day?


I'm not qualified to respond as I was just passing along what Craig Owens had told me.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> I'm not qualified to respond as I was just passing along what Craig Owens had told me.




I was asking regarding your RS4500 as well. We know its light output, color capability, P3, and resolution are superior....

But was the resolution piece night and day (if viewed in sequence as opposed to next to each other) vs. your RS500 w/ eshift? Really trying to determine how close eShift comes to native.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> I was asking regarding your RS4500 as well. We know its light output, color capability, P3, and resolution are superior....
> 
> But was the resolution piece night and day (if viewed in sequence as opposed to next to each other) vs. your RS500 w/ eshift? Really trying to determine how close eShift comes to native.


In that case, a "*way beyond* night and day difference". And it didn't need to "viewed in sequence". There was quite some time between when I had the RS500 and when the RS4500 was installed. And even my wife could see the huge improvement. But remember the lens system in the RS4500 is much different than that in the 500 (and probably cost as much as the entire RS500) and, of course a different light source. It is obvious in the "crispness" of lettering, and anything else you look at. 

That said, I'm not convinced it is just the difference between eShift and true 4K. There is a lot more involved I think but you would probably need to pose that question to someone like Craig Rounds or Kris Deering or .....


----------



## beastaudio

BrolicBeast said:


> Coach! What’s up man...I have a question for you, @audioguy, and @beastaudio: In terms of resolution, was the difference between the 4k-Eshift of your previous generation projectors and the Native 4k of your current projectors a significant one? Like—looking at them one after the other (not side by side), would the uptick in resolution be blatantly obvious? This might be the deciding factor, as I’m honestly VERY satisfied with my JVC RS520 (from the mid-2017 model year that you guys recently upgraded from).
> 
> I know it will certainly be better, but is it night and day?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro





audioguy said:


> In that case, a "*way beyond* night and day difference". And it didn't need to "viewed in sequence". There was quite some time between when I had the RS500 and when the RS4500 was installed. And even my wife could see the huge improvement. But remember the lens system in the RS4500 is much different than that in the 500 (and probably cost as much as the entire RS500) and, of course a different light source. It is obvious in the "crispness" of lettering, and anything else you look at.
> 
> That said, I'm not convinced it is just the difference between eShift and true 4K. There is a lot more involved I think but you would probably need to pose that question to someone like Craig Rounds or Kris Deering or .....



The proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the QBF pattern when tested side by side. The level of detail and sharpness you can achieve is substantially better using the new true 4K panels. Now with an actual video source and not a test pattern some would argue the difference is diminished, but IMO, it aint much and though I never tested the QBF pattern side by side with my own rs540, I don't doubt the test results one bit. The new JVC's are able to resolve the smallest text probably twice better than the eshift models.... and after having a Sony and Epson ls10k laser before my run of 4 JVC's, ALL FOUR of them never seemed to have the "calmness" to the image that the Epson had to it, nor the Sony but to a lesser degree. I believe this is a combination of not only sharpness but motion too, which was something I was seriously pining for and not something JVC has puffed their chest up about when comparing themselves to other machines. They've made incredible strides in both cases IMO. 

FWIW the top tier jvc nx9/rs3000 shares the same lens as the 4500, and SHOULD resolve more detail than the lower models, but as has already been mentioned, I think the difference there, as opposed the the money savings and addition of a paladin lens to an nx3/rs2000 to be about the same cost would still beat out the much better lens.


----------



## COACH2369

BrolicBeast said:


> Coach! What’s up man...I have a question for you, @audioguy, and @beastaudio: In terms of resolution, was the difference between the 4k-Eshift of your previous generation projectors and the Native 4k of your current projectors a significant one? Like—looking at them one after the other (not side by side), would the uptick in resolution be blatantly obvious? This might be the deciding factor, as I’m honestly VERY satisfied with my JVC RS520 (from the mid-2017 model year that you guys recently upgraded from).
> 
> I know it will certainly be better, but is it night and day?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I was coming from the RS500, which I think had a slightly less light output(but probably nothing that was noticeable).
So far everything I have thrown at the NX7 just looks "cleaner". I am still playing with different setup configurations with the projector and my Panasonic UB9000. Then in a few weeks I am hoping to have it calibrated by Chad B. That is when I feel like it will look its best and will really be able to give a good review.

The NX9 was tempting, but not affordable for me. The idea of going with NX7 and then down the road, I can add a lens if I want. My guess is I won't since I am sure I will want something else instead.


----------



## BrolicBeast

@audioguy , @beastaudio, @COACH2369 , thank you for your responses. I'm very seriously planning my next move. I wonder what I can get for the RS520 these days. If it's too low, I'll keep it and put it in the gym! 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## beastaudio

BrolicBeast said:


> @audioguy , @beastaudio, @COACH2369 , thank you for your responses. I'm very seriously planning my next move. I wonder what I can get for the RS520 these days. If it's too low, I'll keep it and put it in the gym!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Like the 540, you should get a decent amount for it as the 540 actually ended up being very sought after once the new units hit and they decided to discontinue the 540 even though it was originally still in the new lineup. JVC basically had to kill it off only to keep up with the demand of the new units...otherwise it would still be a current available model likely.


----------



## COACH2369

BrolicBeast said:


> @audioguy , @beastaudio, @COACH2369 , thank you for your responses. I'm very seriously planning my next move. I wonder what I can get for the RS520 these days. If it's too low, I'll keep it and put it in the gym!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I was able to sell my RS500 really quickly, but I probably had it a little lower priced that most.
Definitely lucked out because I sold it locally and didn't have to ship it. 

Ended up with 4-5 offers within the first 2 days of listing it.


----------



## audioguy

Stick a new bulb in one of those projectors and they provide an extraordinary image for the money spent !!


----------



## audioguy

IcyMJ said:


> This room is actually insane....WOW! - looks really comfortable and I like the color layout aswell!


Thank you. I don't know about the room being insane but the owner most certainly is. It is very comfortable, and a great place to listen to music, and watch movies, golf and college football!!

I appreciate your kind words.


----------



## Kain

audioguy,

Great home theater. 

I see you are using a MiniDSP to handle multiple subwoofers with the Altitude16 while having a 9.1.6 setup. Looks like that model is not available anymore and wanted to ask you if you have any recommendations for what else could be used? Having a 9.1.6 setup with the Altitude16 only leaves one available channel for the subwoofer so you need something like a MiniDSP to support multiples.


----------



## audioguy

Kain said:


> audioguy,
> 
> Great home theater.


Thank you!



> I see you are using a MiniDSP to handle multiple subwoofers with the Altitude16 while having a 9.1.6 setup. Looks like that model is not available anymore and wanted to ask you if you have any recommendations for what else could be used?


Depends on how much you want to spend - or if you are willing to buy used. I have a client who purchased one like I am using (new) and he is not using it nor probably will. *THIS ONE* will do the same as the one I have but you will need to remove the XLR connectors from one end of the cable to fit these Phoenix connectors. 

One of my clients use *THIS* product. They also use Phoenix connectors.

Others use products from *QSC*. Much more expensive but for JUST managing subs, seems a bit over-kill to me.



> Having a 9.1.6 setup with the Altitude16 only leaves one available channel for the subwoofer so you need something like a MiniDSP to support multiples.


Correct.


----------



## Kain

Thanks.


----------



## beastaudio

audioguy said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on how much you want to spend - or if you are willing to buy used. I have a client who purchased one like I am using (new) and he is not using it nor probably will. *THIS ONE* will do the same as the one I have but you will need to remove the XLR connectors from one end of the cable to fit these Phoenix connectors.
> 
> One of my clients use *THIS* product. They also use Phoenix connectors.
> 
> Others use products from *QSC*. Much more expensive but for JUST managing subs, seems a bit over-kill to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct.





Kain said:


> Thanks.


The dbx driverack pa360 is also an excellent option.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> The NX 7 and 9 are apparently great projectors. I think both Kris Deering and Craig Rounds have RS3000/NX9, and Kris has stated he believes the RS3000 to be superior in many ways to the RS4500. And according to Craig, who left my home to calibrate an RS2000/Lumagen, he thinks the RS2000/NX7 is about as close as you can imagine to the NX9. If it were not for my choosing to make a "life long purchase" and, hence the laser based 4500, the NX7 would have been my choice.
> 
> Apparently a really wonderful machine!!


Hi Chuck,


I'm considering updating my projector to the NX7. I currently have an older Panamorph UH480 anamorphic lens. Do you think I'll need to upgrade that also? 



Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> I'm considering updating my projector to the NX7. I currently have an older Panamorph UH480 anamorphic lens. Do you think I'll need to upgrade that also?
> 
> Craig


Craig: Not sure I'm qualified to answer that. I would call Shawn Kelley, owner of Panamorph and ask him. 

You could, at least, give it a try. If it doesn't diminish the image, then it might be, at the very least, a temporary way to increase light output.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Craig: Not sure I'm qualified to answer that. I would call Shawn Kelley, owner of Panamorph and ask him.
> 
> You could, at least, give it a try. If it doesn't diminish the image, then it might be, at the very least, a temporary way to increase light output.



Thanks! I'll try calling him tomorrow.


----------



## craig john

One more question... what screen material are you using with your JVC?


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> One more question... what screen material are you using with your JVC?


Seymour Center Stage XD™ (acoustically transparent). And FWIW, the guy that did my calibration thought that my SD image was the best he had seen and shared that with Kris Deering (who also does lots of calibrations).

HIGHLY recommended.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Seymour Center Stage XD™ (acoustically transparent). And FWIW, the guy that did my calibration thought that my SD image was the best he had seen and shared that with Kris Deering (who also does lots of calibrations).
> 
> HIGHLY recommended.


 My current screen is Seymour XD. However, they make some new materials specifically for 4K projectors. Did you check out any of those when you upgraded your projector?


Do you have a video processor? I've been recommended the Lumagen.


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> My current screen is Seymour XD. However, they make some new materials specifically for 4K projectors. Did you check out any of those when you upgraded your projector?


I did not. The thought never occurred to me - strange as that may seem. 



> Do you have a video processor? I've been recommended the Lumagen.


I do now have a Lumagen - just got it. 

I have never been a believer of Video Processors since their (in my mind) primary benefit was up converting the video to higher resolutions and I always thought my projectors did a great job. Maybe 15 years ago I bought one through one of the calibration software companies so I could learn and perform my own video calibration. But for as much as I know and understand about audio, I have never been able to easily grasp all of the concepts of video. With test discs, I could get brightness, contrast and a few other things really close, but not the whole thing. So have not had a VP until that last month or so.

BUT, with the help of another AVSer [@beastaudio], I was able to see the possibilities of HDR on my previous JVC RS500, and that is what prompted my insane upgrade to the RS4500 + Panamorph. And then Lumagen came out with Dynamic Tone Mapping, which had the possibilities of greatly improving HDR video, so I decided to dive in. But prior to purchasing the Lumagen, I talked to Jim Peterson (owns Lumagen) about calibration and he provided some names that he knew could get me the most out of my Lumagen/JVC/Panamorph. I selected Craig Rounds, but there are other guys as well. Craig, and Kris Deering and I'm sure others had a "package" deal of the Lumagen hardware and the calibration service combined, and that is what I chose to have done. Craig spent two days here and the results are simply stunning. The only negative I have about my video chain is the projector noise, even in mid laser, so I will eventually build a "hush box". 

The current group of JVC projectors (NX7, NX9 and RS4500/Z1) coupled with a Lumagen and Lens, on our sized screen, have the ability to provide a simply stunning (yet far from inexpensive) result.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> I did not. The thought never occurred to me - strange as that may seem.


Oh my! Please don't spend more money and blame it on me!!! 



I called Shawn Kelley and he said my current lens will work fine. Of course, he also said the new lenses will work "better," but I saw him winking at me through the phone.  




audioguy said:


> I do now have a Lumagen - just got it.
> 
> I have never been a believer of Video Processors since their (in my mind) primary benefit was up converting the video to higher resolutions and I always thought my projectors did a great job. Maybe 15 years ago I bought one through one of the calibration software companies so I could learn and perform my own video calibration. But for as much as I know and understand about audio, I have never been able to easily grasp all of the concepts of video. With test discs, I could get brightness, contrast and a few other things really close, but not the whole thing. So have not had a VP until that last month or so.
> 
> BUT, with the help of another AVSer [@beastaudio], I was able to see the possibilities of HDR on my previous JVC RS500, and that is what prompted my insane upgrade to the RS4500 + Panamorph. And then Lumagen came out with Dynamic Tone Mapping, which had the possibilities of greatly improving HDR video, so I decided to dive in. But prior to purchasing the Lumagen, I talked to Jim Peterson (owns Lumagen) about calibration and he provided some names that he knew could get me the most out of my Lumagen/JVC/Panamorph. I selected Craig Rounds, but there are other guys as well. Craig, and Kris Deering and I'm sure others had a "package" deal of the Lumagen hardware and the calibration service combined, and that is what I chose to have done. Craig spent two days here and the results are simply stunning. The only negative I have about my video chain is the projector noise, even in mid laser, so I will eventually build a "hush box".
> 
> The current group of JVC projectors (NX7, NX9 and RS4500/Z1) coupled with a Lumagen and Lens, on our sized screen, have the ability to provide a simply stunning (yet far from inexpensive) result.


I think my current plan is to just get the projector and see how well I can make it work. Then I'll revisit the screen and Lumagen and lens.


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Oh my! Please don't spend more money and blame it on me!!!


You would not be blamed. The only way I would potentially get a new screen is if I went to a larger screen - which with all of the necessary construction, would cost on the order of $25,000!!




> I called Shawn Kelley and he said my current lens will work fine. Of course, he also said the new lenses will work "better," but I saw him winking at me through the phone.


I would definitely give that a go.



> I think my current plan is to just get the projector and see how well I can make it work. Then I'll revisit the screen and Lumagen and lens.


Sounds like an excellent plan


----------



## beastaudio

craig john said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> 
> I'm considering updating my projector to the NX7. I currently have an older Panamorph UH480 anamorphic lens. Do you think I'll need to upgrade that also?
> 
> 
> 
> Craig


Im running the nx7 with the even older uh380 at the moment and am perfectly happy with what I am seeing on the screen. Will the DCR be better, especially for a flat screen? Probably, and a little more user friendly, but will you be able to tell with normal content? I highly doubt it. For the pricing of everything being discussed I have definitely shifted my interest more towards the lumagen for the dynamic tone mapping among other things. No lens will improve that and it would be awful hard for you to find anyone that (knowing you already have a lens of some sort) would argue more towards the Paladin than the Lumagen processor at this point.



craig john said:


> My current screen is Seymour XD. However, they make some new materials specifically for 4K projectors. Did you check out any of those when you upgraded your projector?
> 
> 
> Do you have a video processor? I've been recommended the Lumagen.


This personally would be the last consideration on your list to upgrade. For woven material the XD is the brightest available gain and you'll want every bit of that to take advantage of HDR material. You can close down the iris all you want to dim the image if needed, but you can never gain lumens back from moving to a lower gain screen. Your only other option is to transition to a microperf material for some more added gain...but as Chuck has already mentioned, the XD is a wonderful fabric, and it's 1.0 benchmarked gain is right in the sweet spot for most applications.



craig john said:


> Oh my! Please don't spend more money and blame it on me!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I called Shawn Kelley and he said my current lens will work fine. Of course, he also said the new lenses will work "better," but I saw him winking at me through the phone.
> 
> 
> 
> I think my current plan is to just get the projector and see how well I can make it work. Then I'll revisit the screen and Lumagen and lens.


Oh he'll blame it on you alright... 

I think your plan is sound. The lens should suffice just fine IMO as will your screen. The lumagen will just help take an already breathtaking image and get it to the next level...as would a professional calibration of your nx7 when you could get one of those guys out your way.


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> Oh he'll blame it on you alright...


I only "blame" Craig for past audio upgrades - but not really - I LOVE my Triads. And now that I have the video chain that I do, I "blame" no one for that either.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> I only "blame" Craig for past audio upgrades - but not really - I LOVE my Triads. And now that I have the video chain that I do, I "blame" no one for that either.


It's all fun and games, until somebody gets hurt!


----------



## craig john

beastaudio said:


> Im running the nx7 with the even older uh380 at the moment and am perfectly happy with what I am seeing on the screen. Will the DCR be better, especially for a flat screen? Probably, and a little more user friendly, but will you be able to tell with normal content? I highly doubt it. For the pricing of everything being discussed I have definitely shifted my interest more towards the lumagen for the dynamic tone mapping among other things. No lens will improve that and it would be awful hard for you to find anyone that (knowing you already have a lens of some sort) would argue more towards the Paladin than the Lumagen processor at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> This personally would be the last consideration on your list to upgrade. For woven material the XD is the brightest available gain and you'll want every bit of that to take advantage of HDR material. You can close down the iris all you want to dim the image if needed, but you can never gain lumens back from moving to a lower gain screen. Your only other option is to transition to a microperf material for some more added gain...but as Chuck has already mentioned, the XD is a wonderful fabric, and it's 1.0 benchmarked gain is right in the sweet spot for most applications.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh he'll blame it on you alright...
> 
> I think your plan is sound. The lens should suffice just fine IMO as will your screen. The lumagen will just help take an already breathtaking image and get it to the next level...as would a professional calibration of your nx7 when you could get one of those guys out your way.


Hi Brandon! Thanks for the confirmations. Much appreciated!


One followup question on screens. Seymour ScreenExcellence has a couple of new(ish) 4K screen materials, Enlightor-4K, (0.98 Gain), Enlightor-Bright, (1.1 Gain), and Enlightor-Neo, (No gain specified.) They're finer weaves with less visible porosity. They allow you to sit closer without any visibility of the screen surface. Do you think any of these would be an upgrade from the XD material? I'm particularly thinking of the Enlightor-Bright, but I need to find out more about the Neo also. I have a call in to Chris Seymour, and I'm waiting to hear back. 

http://www.seymourscreenexcellence.com/documents/4Matl1.pdf#zoom=100&


Thanks!



Craig


----------



## beastaudio

craig john said:


> Hi Brandon! Thanks for the confirmations. Much appreciated!
> 
> 
> One followup question on screens. Seymour ScreenExcellence has a couple of new(ish) 4K screen materials, Enlightor-4K, (0.98 Gain), Enlightor-Bright, (1.1 Gain), and Enlightor-Neo, (No gain specified.) They're finer weaves with less visible porosity. They allow you to sit closer without any visibility of the screen surface. Do you think any of these would be an upgrade from the XD material? I'm particularly thinking of the Enlightor-Bright, but I need to find out more about the Neo also. I have a call in to Chris Seymour, and I'm waiting to hear back.
> 
> http://www.seymourscreenexcellence.com/documents/4Matl1.pdf#zoom=100&
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Craig


Well cross enlightor bright off your list because you already own it. Yea I said it. Enlightor bright is SSE's version of XD, just named differently for their custom line as opposed to installer line.

The enlightor 4k is a decent material but low enough gain I wouldn't recommend it. The new "Neo" is a good in between E4K and XD material that Chris would say specs to around .95 gain. IMO if you don't have issues where you sit now with seeing the weave, I'd stick with what you got and the most gain you can get from woven. If you are wanting to sit closer, or with the added brightness of the new PJ you begin to see some of the weave...only then would I suggest moving to another material. Even the slightest changes in gain make a big difference. In my case, going from a woven material that while marketed as 1.0 gain actually benched out to around .8 gain (not seymour btw), to a Microperf 1.3 gain which in actuality is more of a 1.1 gain, the difference was staggering. Im sure someone more mathematically inclined than myself could calculate out the exact % of brightness I gained (pun intended), but I'm betting between the material and the uh380 I nearly doubled my on-screen brightness.


----------



## craig john

beastaudio said:


> Well cross enlightor bright off your list because you already own it. Yea I said it. Enlightor bright is SSE's version of XD, just named differently for their custom line as opposed to installer line.
> 
> The enlightor 4k is a decent material but low enough gain I wouldn't recommend it. The new "Neo" is a good in between E4K and XD material that Chris would say specs to around .95 gain. IMO if you don't have issues where you sit now with seeing the weave, I'd stick with what you got and the most gain you can get from woven. If you are wanting to sit closer, or with the added brightness of the new PJ you begin to see some of the weave...only then would I suggest moving to another material. Even the slightest changes in gain make a big difference. In my case, going from a woven material that while marketed as 1.0 gain actually benched out to around .8 gain (not seymour btw), to a Microperf 1.3 gain which in actuality is more of a 1.1 gain, the difference was staggering. Im sure someone more mathematically inclined than myself could calculate out the exact % of brightness I gained (pun intended), but I'm betting between the material and the uh380 I nearly doubled my on-screen brightness.


Thanks again! I just got off the phone with Jon Kaisand at Seymour and he basically confirmed everything you said. I'm sticking with the XD screen! The Lumagen will be the next decision, but I'll get the pj first and see how it looks with my current screen and lens. 

In actuality, I have no problem with the brightness of the image I get now with my old RS-55 pj, and it was only 1,200 lumens, and calibrated it was well less than that. I have no doubt the RS2000 will be a significant upgrade from that!


Craig


Edit: Chuck, sorry for using your thread to sort my issues, but some of the smartest guys on the forum stop in here frequently.


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> In actuality, I have no problem with the brightness of the image I get now with my old RS-55 pj, and it was only 1,200 lumens, and calibrated it was well less than that. I have no doubt the RS2000 will be a significant upgrade from that!


I first went from the RS55 to the RS500 and it was a huge improvement. Then I went from the RS500 to my current PJ and was blown away. Even my wife could not help but notice the huge improvement. Your 2000 will be VERY close to my RS4500 image and coming from a much older technology. Not only will it be brighter, but the image will be much more crisp



> Edit: Chuck, sorry for using your thread to sort my issues, but some of the smartest guys on the forum stop in here frequently.


Not an issue. AVS is all about sharing experiences and learning from one another. This is as good a place as any!!


----------



## nonstopdoc1

Very nice build!!

Is there any picture showing rear subs setup?


----------



## audioguy

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Very nice build!!
> 
> Is there any picture showing rear subs setup?



Go *HERE*


----------



## ctshull

I see that you many years ago had moved from a Sony VPL600 to the new JVC. I am contemplating the same move and am very concerned about fan noise from the projector. The distance from my head to my projector is about the same as yours and I can BARELY hear the Sony at low fan while a movie is playing. What is your experience making the upgrade? How much louder is the JVC? Do you find the increase in noise objectionable?

Thanks for your reply, your theater truly deserves to be the “theater of the month”

Christian


----------



## audioguy

ctshull said:


> I see that you many years ago had moved from a Sony VPL600 to the new JVC. I am contemplating the same move and am very concerned about fan noise from the projector. The distance from my head to my projector is about the same as yours and I can BARELY hear the Sony at low fan while a movie is playing. What is your experience making the upgrade? How much louder is the JVC? Do you find the increase in noise objectionable?
> 
> Thanks for your reply, your theater truly deserves to be the “theater of the month”
> 
> Christian



Thank you for the kind words. 

I've had two RS4500's (the first one failed) and I don't remember the fan being this loud - and I also don't recall the fan on this one being that loud when I first got it. It could be I have a faulty fan. I have a friend who just got the RS2000 and it is not as noisy as mine. I will tell you that if you get a RS4500 KEEP THE ROOM COOL and you won't have as much noise. I am not aware of many other RS4500 users who complain about fan noise.


----------



## audioguy

I have posted some of this elsewhere but not on this thread.

1. I have decided to take my speaker count up a large notch and will be moving from a 9.x.6 configuration to an 11.x.10 configuration. And in order to accomplish that,

2. I have ordered the Altitude 32-24 to be able to handle the increased speaker count

3. I have ordered an additional ATI 6 channel amp to handle the additional speakers

4. I am have ordered 3 Triad InRoom Bronze Center speakers that will be installed horizontally for use as my front heights, and 2 Triad OnWall Bronze LCRs that will be used for my second row Side Surrounds and another RSL C34E as my VOG speaker (to match the other 6 current height speakers). And while none of the Triad speakers will match "perfectly" the other Triads I already have installed, I will PEQ them and the other existing surround Triads prior to running Optimizer to insure that the pre Optimized response is IDENTICAL for all of the speakers. Then I am confident that given their location and use, I will not be able to hear any important differences (or more likely, any differences) between these and my existing speakers. 

5. I have my Trinnov Altitude 16 for sale and will include all travel expenses and time for on site calibration as one option for purchasing the Altitude.

6.* I have committed to never again commit to no more upgrades.*

7. I have also ordered 2 very inexpensive bar tables to be used as a "2nd row" and 4 bar stools that will go with them. I will probably have a new top built to cover over the very inexpensive MDF top to make it look a bit less cheezy. 

The idea for the bar vs a new row of seating (which was never actively under consideration) came after I saw someone else who had done that on one of the AVS theaters. That, then, prompted the idea of adding another set of surrounds for that row. Furthermore, I am getting ready to have the back of my rack cleaned up (a complete wiring spaghetti mess) and wanted to simplify the equipment connections, so getting rid of the miniDSP was an option. But given I am out of channels on the A16, I would need 2 more for the rear surrounds and 1 more to handle the LFE duties. Lastly, Trinnov has released DTS: Pro (no charge) which can use up to 30 channels. In fact, Neural X has been upgraded so that when upmixing DTS:X or DTS, the upmixer will use all of those channels as well. So since the next upgrade on the Trinnov goes to 24 channels, I decided to make use of more of the channels and, after some investigation, decided on adding the VOG speaker and three front heights, in addition to the second set of side surrounds. Between Atmos, DTS:X and AuroMatic, all of the new speakers will be used.

As a result of all of the above, I will be investigating moving the door to the equipment room into the corner so that I could then slide my L&R back closer to the front wall. This will allow me to move the first row forward (without having the L&R speakers sitting in your face) and make room for the bar and attendant seating. I am currently about 13.5 feet from the screen and moving the seating forward. I don't know if this will work or not as I have not done the calculations on how everything will fit.


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> I have posted some of this elsewhere but not on this thread.
> 
> 1. I have decided to take my speaker count up a large notch and will be moving from a 9.x.6 configuration to an 11.x.10 configuration. And in order to accomplish that,
> 
> 2. I have ordered the Altitude 32-24 to be able to handle the increased speaker count
> 
> 3. I have ordered an additional ATI 6 channel amp to handle the additional speakers
> 
> 4. I am have ordered 3 Triad InRoom Bronze Center speakers that will be installed horizontally for use as my front heights, and 2 Triad OnWall Bronze LCRs that will be used for my second row Side Surrounds and another RSL C34E as my VOG speaker (to match the other 6 current height speakers). And while none of the Triad speakers will match "perfectly" the other Triads I already have installed, I will PEQ them and the other existing surround Triads prior to running Optimizer to insure that the pre Optimized response is IDENTICAL for all of the speakers. Then I am confident that given their location and use, I will not be able to hear any important differences (or more likely, any differences) between these and my existing speakers.
> 
> 5. I have my Trinnov Altitude 16 for sale and will include all travel expenses and time for on site calibration as one option for purchasing the Altitude.
> 
> 6.* I have committed to never again commit to no more upgrades.*
> 
> 7. I have also ordered 2 very inexpensive bar tables to be used as a "2nd row" and 4 bar stools that will go with them. I will probably have a new top built to cover over the very inexpensive MDF top to make it look a bit less cheezy.
> 
> The idea for the bar vs a new row of seating (which was never actively under consideration) came after I saw someone else who had done that on one of the AVS theaters. That, then, prompted the idea of adding another set of surrounds for that row. Furthermore, I am getting ready to have the back of my rack cleaned up (a complete wiring spaghetti mess) and wanted to simplify the equipment connections, so getting rid of the miniDSP was an option. But given I am out of channels on the A16, I would need 2 more for the rear surrounds and 1 more to handle the LFE duties. Lastly, Trinnov has released DTS: Pro (no charge) which can use up to 30 channels. In fact, Neural X has been upgraded so that when upmixing DTS:X or DTS, the upmixer will use all of those channels as well. So since the next upgrade on the Trinnov goes to 24 channels, I decided to make use of more of the channels and, after some investigation, decided on adding the VOG speaker and three front heights, in addition to the second set of side surrounds. Between Atmos, DTS:X and AuroMatic, all of the new speakers will be used.
> 
> As a result of all of the above, I will be investigating moving the door to the equipment room into the corner so that I could then slide my L&R back closer to the front wall. This will allow me to move the first row forward (without having the L&R speakers sitting in your face) and make room for the bar and attendant seating. I am currently about 13.5 feet from the screen and moving the seating forward. I don't know if this will work or not as I have not done the calculations on how everything will fit.


THAT NUMBER 6!!!!!!

Looking forward to how this all plays out!


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> I have posted some of this elsewhere but not on this thread.
> 
> 1. I have decided to take my speaker count up a large notch and will be moving from a 9.x.6 configuration to an 11.x.10 configuration. And in order to accomplish that,
> 
> 2. I have ordered the Altitude 32-24 to be able to handle the increased speaker count
> 
> 3. I have ordered an additional ATI 6 channel amp to handle the additional speakers
> 
> 4. I am have ordered 3 Triad InRoom Bronze Center speakers that will be installed horizontally for use as my front heights, and 2 Triad OnWall Bronze LCRs that will be used for my second row Side Surrounds and another RSL C34E as my VOG speaker (to match the other 6 current height speakers). And while none of the Triad speakers will match "perfectly" the other Triads I already have installed, I will PEQ them and the other existing surround Triads prior to running Optimizer to insure that the pre Optimized response is IDENTICAL for all of the speakers. Then I am confident that given their location and use, I will not be able to hear any important differences (or more likely, any differences) between these and my existing speakers.
> 
> 5. I have my Trinnov Altitude 16 for sale and will include all travel expenses and time for on site calibration as one option for purchasing the Altitude.
> 
> 6.* I have committed to never again commit to no more upgrades.*


Chuck,

Best wishes on all the New *Changes & Up-Dates* your going to be doing. 
It should be really-really interesting to read what you think after all is completed and finally calibrated to your liking.

Terry


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> I have posted some of this elsewhere but not on this thread.
> 
> 1. I have decided to take my speaker count up a large notch and will be moving from a 9.x.6 configuration to an 11.x.10 configuration. And in order to accomplish that,
> 
> 2. I have ordered the Altitude 32-24 to be able to handle the increased speaker count
> 
> 3. I have ordered an additional ATI 6 channel amp to handle the additional speakers
> 
> 4. I am have ordered 3 Triad InRoom Bronze Center speakers that will be installed horizontally for use as my front heights, and 2 Triad OnWall Bronze LCRs that will be used for my second row Side Surrounds and another RSL C34E as my VOG speaker (to match the other 6 current height speakers). And while none of the Triad speakers will match "perfectly" the other Triads I already have installed, I will PEQ them and the other existing surround Triads prior to running Optimizer to insure that the pre Optimized response is IDENTICAL for all of the speakers. Then I am confident that given their location and use, I will not be able to hear any important differences (or more likely, any differences) between these and my existing speakers.
> 
> 5. I have my Trinnov Altitude 16 for sale and will include all travel expenses and time for on site calibration as one option for purchasing the Altitude.
> 
> 6.* I have committed to never again commit to no more upgrades.*
> 
> 7. I have also ordered 2 very inexpensive bar tables to be used as a "2nd row" and 4 bar stools that will go with them. I will probably have a new top built to cover over the very inexpensive MDF top to make it look a bit less cheezy.
> 
> The idea for the bar vs a new row of seating (which was never actively under consideration) came after I saw someone else who had done that on one of the AVS theaters. That, then, prompted the idea of adding another set of surrounds for that row. Furthermore, I am getting ready to have the back of my rack cleaned up (a complete wiring spaghetti mess) and wanted to simplify the equipment connections, so getting rid of the miniDSP was an option. But given I am out of channels on the A16, I would need 2 more for the rear surrounds and 1 more to handle the LFE duties. Lastly, Trinnov has released DTS: Pro (no charge) which can use up to 30 channels. In fact, Neural X has been upgraded so that when upmixing DTS:X or DTS, the upmixer will use all of those channels as well. So since the next upgrade on the Trinnov goes to 24 channels, I decided to make use of more of the channels and, after some investigation, decided on adding the VOG speaker and three front heights, in addition to the second set of side surrounds. Between Atmos, DTS:X and AuroMatic, all of the new speakers will be used.
> 
> As a result of all of the above, I will be investigating moving the door to the equipment room into the corner so that I could then slide my L&R back closer to the front wall. This will allow me to move the first row forward (without having the L&R speakers sitting in your face) and make room for the bar and attendant seating. I am currently about 13.5 feet from the screen and moving the seating forward. I don't know if this will work or not as I have not done the calculations on how everything will fit.


I am officially retiring June 30th, 2020. I am officially inviting myself to come hear your upgrades at some point shortly after that. :grin: 



6.* I have committed to never again commit to no more upgrades.*

How many decades did it take to figure this out??? :nerd::laugh::wink: (Sorry, just couldn't pass that up!)


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> I am officially retiring June 30th, 2020. I am officially inviting myself to come hear your upgrades at some point shortly after that. :grin:
> 
> 
> 
> 6.* I have committed to never again commit to no more upgrades.*
> 
> How many decades did it take to figure this out??? :nerd::laugh::wink: (Sorry, just couldn't pass that up!)


Good for you. Retirement is a great way to spend your hard earned money. And, of course, you always are welcome to come visit. 

I really did believe that I was DONE. And the scary thing is, I'm not sure how much sonic benefit I am going to get as a result of this upgrade. And while I think I'm *REALLY* done this time, it is even clear to me (after uttering that phrase way too many times) that, apparently, I will *never* be done. I can't imagine what changes/upgrades I might make, but the I could not imagine doing this current set of changes. 

As for adding any more speakers, I'm not sure where I would put them. But, again, who knows.

I am really excited about your retirement news. It is well deserved, I am sure, and it is a great way to spend our senior years!!


----------



## 24Changer

@audioguy, very nice room and set-up. I was linked to your thread today by another fellow AVS'er. I can see that without personal restraint, it may be an expensive visit. 

In all seriousness, the conversation has been helpful and has me re-thinking about the upgrades I would like to do.


----------



## audioguy

24Changer said:


> @*audioguy* , very nice room and set-up. I was linked to your thread today by another fellow AVS'er. I can see that without personal restraint, it may be an expensive visit.
> 
> In all seriousness, the conversation has been helpful and has me re-thinking about the upgrades I would like to do.


Thanks for stopping by and the nice complements. This can be a very addictive hobby and self restraint can be difficult. 

I don't know what upgrades you are considering but I will tell you what I tell every client I have: After selecting your speakers (lots of great and "reasonably priced" options - but some are better than others), make sure they are properly placed. Then make sure the room is "properly treated". And that doesn't mean a few absorptive panels scattered around the room. There really is a science behind it and there are great resources to help make the right choices - like GIK). Proper passive room treatment is critical to achieving optimum performance. I have been in hundreds of rooms doing calibration over the last 30 years and without exception, the better the room treatment, the better the audio performance. I am also very prejudiced on this subject, but if you are not there yet, look toward a processor that uses Dirac for room correction. FAR better than Audyssey or any of the other choices (except Trinnov's Room Optimizer but the cost to do that is REALLY high). And make sure who ever does your audio calibration (you or someone else) knows how to use the external measuring tools (e.g. REW or OmniMIc) to extract the very best out of your room and equipment. 

Sorry for the sermon but I am passionate about this hobby and sometimes get a bit carried away.


----------



## gpmbc

@audioguy Nice room! You definitely have some valuable input and I admire your pursuit. Just curious, I seen you and others with high end gear using the C34E ceiling speakers. You obviously can use whatever you want in that position. What makes them so special?


----------



## audioguy

gpmbc said:


> @*audioguy* Nice room! You definitely have some valuable input and I admire your pursuit. Just curious, I seen you and others with high end gear using the C34E ceiling speakers. You obviously can use whatever you want in that position. What makes them so special?



I first had some on-ceiling speakers and while I had them, I was able to play just the sounds coming from them (muted all other channels). What I learned was that dispersion pattern was critical, but power handling nor super high efficiency was important and they sure didn't need to be the most accurate speaker on the planet, nor do they need to be by the same manufacturer as other room speakers nor is "timbre matching" critical (room EQ will get them more than close enough). Their typical output is 10db to 20db less than the surrounds. And I am not interested in spending more money than necessary to get the job done. All of that told me I had lots of options (uniform dispersion was the most critical).

When I installed the C34E's, I played two channel music through them and they sounded excellent. And as a height speaker in a 3D audio install, they more than meet the requirements. At an MSRP level, I have about $50,000 in speakers in my room - and the $750 I have invested in the C34E's has no problem keeping up. I'm sure there are LOTS of other options, but at $125 each shipped, why pay more??


----------



## gpmbc

Thanks so much for the in depth response! All the reason I would need. 😎


----------



## craig john

gpmbc said:


> Thanks so much for the in depth response! All the reason I would need. 😎


I too have the RSL C34e's for my Atmos Height speakers in my theater, and I have the same main and surround speakers, (Triad Platinums and Silver Monitors), as audioguy. If you would like to see a graphical description of his explanation, I posted some graphs in this post:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-g...g-up-dated-august-2018-a-16.html#post59296984

Craig


----------



## gpmbc

@craig john Very informative post! Thanks for chiming in.


----------



## appelz

craig john said:


> I too have the RSL C34e's for my Atmos Height speakers in my theater, and I have the same main and surround speakers, (Triad Platinums and Silver Monitors), as audioguy. If you would like to see a graphical description of his explanation, I posted some graphs in this post:
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-g...g-up-dated-august-2018-a-16.html#post59296984
> 
> Craig


Can you explain more about how you took those measurements? 

If you set your ceiling speakers to Small, and had subs turned off, then the Bass Management in your AVR would roll off anything below whatever the crossover point was set to. And even if you had temporarily set them to Large, turning off Bass Management, those speakers would probably measure something similar anyway, since they will start to roll off quite a bit before their specified 70Hz lower frequency. 

Dolby specifies that all speakers should be capable of full range. Because of that, I've started to notice commercial cinemas are using additional subwoofers placed in the ceiling and using Bass Management. 

The only way to know for sure exactly what is going on would be to measure the output from your AVR, with all speakers set to Large (no Bass Management). I suspect you'd find something very different. If I wasn't on the road, I'd set that up right now and measure. If I have time next week, I'll mock that up during a calibration and measure some content.


----------



## audioguy

appelz said:


> Dolby specifies that all speakers should be capable of full range.



I'm confused about that. Not a single speaker in my room is full range. In fact, with one exception, every theater I have been in has not had any full range speakers. The Triad Platinum LCRs maybe go to 60Hz (on a good day). That is why I thought bass management existed - to provide the bottom end to all speakers as necessary. Heck, even when I had Dunlavy SC-VIs which went below 20Hz, I still used bass management when watching movies !

What am I missing here?

And my bet is that Craig probably may have had bass management on when he measured the output of his RSL height speakers. I use to have some raw measurements of those speakers as they were mounted in my ceiling but can not locate them. But that really doesn't take away any other of his arguments and bass management solves that one. But I may certainly be missing something here


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> I'm confused about that. Not a single speaker in my room is full range. In fact, with one exception, every theater I have been in has not had any full range speakers. The Triad Platinum LCRs maybe go to 60Hz (on a good day). That is why I thought bass management existed - to provide the bottom end to all speakers as necessary. Heck, even when I had Dunlavy SC-VIs which went below 20Hz, I still used bass management when watching movies !
> 
> What am I missing here?
> 
> And my bet is that Craig probably had bass management on when he measured the output of his RSL height speakers. But that really doesn't take away any other of his arguments and bass management solves that one. But I may certainly be missing something here


Commercial Cinemas recommendations. Using Bass Management lets them hang smaller speakers overhead, instead of 20 or so much more expensive speakers! Previously, Bass Management was something many commercial cinema techs were unfamiliar with. 

Although anecdotal, based on my personal experiences in a hundred immersive audio cinemas, I prefer a bigger speaker all around. I've worked on quite a few retro-fit projects where the ceiling speakers were limited in size, and had to be rolled off around 90Hz-100Hz. Sure, Bass Management can "solve" that, but it just doesn't sound the same. i'd rather have the flexibility to adjust my crossover for Bass Management on what I hear and measure, and not dictated by a speaker choice. 

I'm NOT suggesting that every one buys speakers capable of playing down to 40Hz. I'm disagreeing with the comments telling people that it just doesn't matter, and to spend as little as possible. And I'm disagreeing with the methodology Craig used to come up with those. 

It does matter.


----------



## craig john

appelz said:


> Commercial Cinemas recommendations. Using Bass Management lets them hang smaller speakers overhead, instead of 20 or so much more expensive speakers! Previously, Bass Management was something many commercial cinema techs were unfamiliar with.
> 
> Although anecdotal, based on my personal experiences in a hundred immersive audio cinemas, I prefer a bigger speaker all around. I've worked on quite a few retro-fit projects where the ceiling speakers were limited in size, and had to be rolled off around 90Hz-100Hz. Sure, Bass Management can "solve" that, but it just doesn't sound the same. i'd rather have the flexibility to adjust my crossover for Bass Management on what I hear and measure, and not dictated by a speaker choice.
> 
> I'm NOT suggesting that every one buys speakers capable of playing down to 40Hz. I'm disagreeing with the comments telling people that it just doesn't matter, and to spend as little as possible. And I'm disagreeing with the methodology Craig used to come up with those.
> 
> It does matter.


You may have missed where I said:
_"This second graph is the Atmos speakers in isolation, (no subwoofers, but the overhead speakers reset with a 40 Hz crossover):"

_I don't have the equipment to measure the spectral content of the pre/pro outputs for the overhead speakers. I can only measure what I can measure with a microphone. The content I measured was from the 2018 Dolby Atmos Demo Disc and it was Dolby's proprietary content that I measured. If there was ever going to be bass content in the Overhead outputs, you would think* Dolby *would put it there.

And I NEVER said "spend as little as possible." I just don't think it's necessary to spend $16,000 on speakers and $26,000 overall just to add Atmos. In a Home theater environment... and with the capabilities of Bass Management, it's just not necessary. I also disagree that a Bass Managed, satellite/subwoofer(s) system doesn't sound the same as a speaker system with full range speakers in all positions. The assumption is that the full range speakers can be placed where they need to be placed AND that those placements will also yield acceptable bass response. I have rarely seen that to be the case. Properly placed and Bass Managed subwoofers offer a far greater opportunity to optimize the bass response. 

Still, the speakers in question, Triad Gold Mini-Monitors, are small sealed 2-way's with an F3 of 55 Hz. They don't have much more bass response than the RSL C34e's. Tigerhonacker will be upgrading to 4 large SVS subwoofers. He'll be using Bass Management. There is no reason, *even if there is some bass in the Overheads*, to spend that kind of money on Overhead speakers, at least IMO. 

Nonetheless, I'll be very interested to see what you find when you measure the spectral content of the Atmos Overheads. I await your measurements. 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

appelz said:


> I'm NOT suggesting that every one buys speakers capable of playing down to 40Hz. I'm disagreeing with the comments telling people that it just doesn't matter, and to *spend as little as possible.* And I'm disagreeing with the methodology Craig used to come up with those.
> 
> It does matter.


As for buying speakers that are capable down to 40Hz or 60Hz or 80hz, power handling, frequency extension, and, of course, budget must be taken into consideration. My Surrounds and Wides (Triad In-Room Silver Speakers) were purchased (MSRP $2000 each) since they have the identical mid range and tweeter as my Platinum LCRs. And their "advertised" anechoic response is on the order of 80Hz if I recall correctly. I initially set the crossover to just a tad above 80Hz. But, when my finger gets a bit aggressive on the volume button on a movie with an already aggressive sound track, those speakers would make sounds that were not on the soundtrack - clearly being over driven. So I now have them crossed over around 120Hz. So given the role they play (surrounds), the fact that they match my LCRs and the use of Bass Management, I'm confused why the use of some other speaker that indeed could play lower, would be of any substantive benefit. And what other Triad speaker would meet those requirements? 

You have been in a gazillion times the number of rooms I have so I really am curious about the sonic value about your position on this matter, and specifically when it comes to height speakers. I would not argue your position as it would relate LCRs. I most certainly get that. And maybe even for surrounds. But for height speakers (which is the basis for this discussion), I just really don't understand. 

While I have not measured the in-use frequency response of my heights (or those in other rooms I have been in), I have done the experiment that Craig referred to (listening only to the height speakers) and the value of the use of higher performance speakers escapes me. Some of the height speakers in the room I have been in cost close to $1000 each and some cost way less. The more expensive speakers (and usually with better specs) sound pretty much the same as the lesser expensive ones. 

"Spend as little as possible" I did not say exactly that but I did say the equivalent and stand by that statement. If X dollars meets the needs of the application, why spend 2X or, as in Terry's case, 20X?


----------



## Kain

@audioguy

Have you received your Altitude32? Now may be the best time to compare the "sonic differences" that some have been reporting between the Altitude16 and the Altitude32.


----------



## audioguy

Kain said:


> @audioguy
> 
> Have you received your Altitude32? Now may be the best time to compare the "sonic differences" that some have been reporting between the Altitude16 and the Altitude32.


Not necessary to compare. Trinnov says the ONLY difference between the two are at the A32 processes up to 24/192 and the A16 processes up to 24/96. If anyone says they hear a difference, then the method they used for comparison was flawed. Not a project I have interest in wasting time on!!


----------



## appelz

craig john said:


> You may have missed where I said:
> _"This second graph is the Atmos speakers in isolation, (no subwoofers, but the overhead speakers reset with a 40 Hz crossover):"
> 
> _I don't have the equipment to measure the spectral content of the pre/pro outputs for the overhead speakers. I can only measure what I can measure with a microphone. The content I measured was from the 2018 Dolby Atmos Demo Disc and it was Dolby's proprietary content that I measured. If there was ever going to be bass content in the Overhead outputs, you would think* Dolby *would put it there.
> 
> And I NEVER said "spend as little as possible." I just don't think it's necessary to spend $16,000 on speakers and $26,000 overall just to add Atmos. In a Home theater environment... and with the capabilities of Bass Management, it's just not necessary. I also disagree that a Bass Managed, satellite/subwoofer(s) system doesn't sound the same as a speaker system with full range speakers in all positions. The assumption is that the full range speakers can be placed where they need to be placed AND that those placements will also yield acceptable bass response. I have rarely seen that to be the case. Properly placed and Bass Managed subwoofers offer a far greater opportunity to optimize the bass response.
> 
> Still, the speakers in question, Triad Gold Mini-Monitors, are small sealed 2-way's with an F3 of 55 Hz. They don't have much more bass response than the RSL C34e's. Tigerhonacker will be upgrading to 4 large SVS subwoofers. He'll be using Bass Management. There is no reason, *even if there is some bass in the Overheads*, to spend that kind of money on Overhead speakers, at least IMO.
> 
> Nonetheless, I'll be very interested to see what you find when you measure the spectral content of the Atmos Overheads. I await your measurements.
> 
> Craig


My apologies. I did miss that you changed the crossovers for your second measurements. Good work. 

I didn't intend to imply that you stated "spend as little as possible', but that is a trend that I am starting to see, and your measurements and posts certainly encourage that line of thinking. 

As far as subwoofers go, and the lowest two octaves..I calibrate cinemas for a living, so I certainly agree that subwoofer placement is critical, main speakers will rarely be in the correct positions etc. That isn't what I'm talking about. If the spectral content for surrounds and overheads is full range (and hopefully I will have time to measure that this coming week), then having more capable speakers overhead is certainly justified. You yourself own Triad Platinum LCR's for your mains. If Bass Management is such a panacea, then how do you justify that expense? Audioguy is crossing his overheads at ~120Hz, so he can play them loud enough without distortion. That seems like an additional very legitimate reason to spend more on overheads. In general, a bigger speaker will have better power handling. 

When 5.1 and 7.1 content first became common in home theaters, I recall the same ideas be passed around. And perhaps on early content, it was justified. It certainly isn't now. History repeats, and the same thought process comes back regarding overheads. 

Consider an actor with a powerful deep voice. Sean Connery, James Earl Jones, George Clooney even in Gravity. His voice is commonly heard in surrounds and overheads in Gravity. I'd prefer all of his voice to come from those speakers, and not have the deeper resonance routed to subwoofers. It just doesn't sound right to our ears/brain. Even more so for multi-channel music. It is difficult enough to integrate subs with mains properly and they are in the same 2D plane. My experience in hundreds of private cinemas tells me it just doesn't sound the same. 

Of course we always have to take into consideration budget and design constraints. But that doesn't keep me from educating clients and recommending the best solution, and if compromises have to be made, at least they are based on purely those constraints. But again, my experience in rooms with everything from small custom Triad speakers designed to fit into small soffits up to large Procella and JBL speakers has me convinced that when budget and design allow, go big.


----------



## audioguy

appelz said:


> But again, my experience in rooms with everything from small custom Triad speakers designed to fit into small soffits up to large Procella and JBL speakers has me convinced *that when budget and design allow, go big.*


100% agree (at least for LCRs and all surrounds). 

In the case of my Triads, I could have used Triad Gold LCRs for my surrounds to get more power handling and extension - but I can't recall if the tweeter/mid-range are the same drivers that are in the Plats (but the drivers in my in-room silvers do match). Or, I could have just blown it out and put in-wall Plats all the way around.

I am still struggling with the idea of needing larger ceiling speakers but when I have some time, I will do some listening. It won't change what I am doing in my room but if I decide it makes more sense to do so, I will certainly recommend it to others.

Actually, if I were starting again, it would not be Traid. After hearing Wisdom at a CEDIA a few years ago and currently assisting someone who is filling his room with them, it would Wisdoms. The purity in those speakers is truly off the charts. There is so much to love about them.


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> 100% agree (at least for LCRs and all surrounds).


So why the difference in opinion between surrounds and overheads? For any Immersive Audio content, the same object/content can be routed through any speaker...fronts, sides, rears, overhead.


----------



## audioguy

appelz said:


> So why the difference in opinion between surrounds and overheads? For any Immersive Audio content, the same object/content can be routed through any speaker...fronts, sides, rears, overhead.


I have not done the comparison (but will) but at an estimated 10dB to 20dB lower volume than other channels (based upon when I listened to just the heights), at least to my old ears, differences in potential quality are much more difficult to ascertain. That, and the actual content of the height speakers and the ~10 rooms I have been in all told me that my supposition was correct. 

Once you get your lab up and running, I would love to drive to Nashville (consider me having just invited me to your lab), bring 4 of the RSL speakers or have them shipped directly to you (they have a 30 day trial period), and see if we can setup a reasonably fair direct comparison using them and something you might have that you would deem more appropriate. If you turn out to be correct (and hence, me not correct), and the better height speakers don't cost a bazillion dollars, change my position on the matter. Blind testing has always been my preferred method of comparing products. ALL of my evaluations on this subject have been 100% subjective. After I installed my current height speakers, I set the front two as a stereo pair and utilizing bass management, listened to music - a lot of it. The physical height of the speakers notwithstanding, they sounded fabulous - and I played them at reasonably loud levels (MUCH louder than they are played reproducing the Atmos portion of a movie soundtrack). 

But, I am open to being proven wrong - and admitting it.


----------



## Roger Dressler

appelz said:


> So why the difference in opinion between surrounds and overheads? For any Immersive Audio content, the same object/content can be routed through any speaker...fronts, sides, rears, overhead.


While an object can surely be positioned anywhere in the Atmos system, it will not be the most taxing condition. Dolby's own cinema speaker requirements are relaxed by 3 dB in the surrounds/heights, 102 dB vs 105 dB for screen channels. 

I suspect this is aids in ensuring the 5.1 and 7.1 cinema release derivations are able to be created with less peak limiting. Cinema 5.1 and 7.1 structurally have 3 dB less SPL capability than the L/C/R. While Atmos systems are not constrained in the same way (all channels are created equal), preventing the surround/height objects from hitting 105 dB is just good practice, if not enforced practice. 

I know 3 dB is not much to get excited about, but it is half-power.


----------



## audioguy

Two years ago, I made lots of equipment changes and totally messed up my wiring management. I kept delaying the re-do (It took me about 60 hours the first time) but finally decide to get it cleaned up - but pay to have it done.

This is what it looked like after I cleaned it up about 2 years ago.












Here is what it looked like on Monday morning:












And here is what it looks like now (Thanks to Atlanta Home Theater)


----------



## audioguy

5 of the 6 speakers necessary to get me to 11.x.10


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> 5 of the 6 speakers necessary to get me to 11.x.10


Chuck,

*Your the Man !!!*


Terry


----------



## audioguy

Modifying one of my "GIK Super Traps with Scatter Plate" to fit over the new side surround speakers (Triad Bronze On-Wall LCRs). A portion of the Scatter Plate has been removed and the entire panel will be recovered.


----------



## JonasHansen

audioguy said:


> Let me explain what was done with acoustic treatment: The screen wall has 2 inches of absorptive material behind the screen (since the screen is AT);
> 
> The side wall first reflection point use 3 GIK q7D's on each side. These are also used in the center of the rear wall (3) surrounded by Monster Traps with Scatter Plates (2)
> 
> 
> 
> We use Monster Traps with Scatter Plates on the rear wall (2) as well as three each on each rear side wall:
> 
> 
> 
> In each of the front two corners we use what GIK calls Soffit Traps which are 17" x 17" x whatever length needed:
> 
> 
> 
> On the ceiling we have four 244 Bass Panels which are suspended about 5 inches.
> 
> And lastly we built soffit bass traps into all wall ceiling intersections stuffed with fiberglass from Home Depot.
> 
> It is still a bit early to decide but it may be just a tad too dry for my taste but I will live with it for several months before I decide if it is an issue. GIK also plans to make a visit once everything is dialed in.


Very nice theater - congrats!
Curious to the design choice to have Q7Ds on first reflection points. Did GIK mention anything about why that was done?


----------



## audioguy

JonasHansen said:


> Very nice theater - congrats!
> Curious to the design choice to have Q7Ds on first reflection points. Did GIK mention anything about why that was done?


Thank you. 

Yes. I still use the theater for listening to music which is why my L&R speakers are in the room. GIK felt, and I agree, that diffusion was the far better solution. If I were ONLY using the theater for movies, I would still ONLY use diffusion for the first reflection points. The only place where there is 100% absorption is on the screen wall. Everything else is a combination of absorption and diffusion/reflection.


----------



## JonasHansen

audioguy said:


> JonasHansen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very nice theater - congrats!
> Curious to the design choice to have Q7Ds on first reflection points. Did GIK mention anything about why that was done?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Yes. I still use the theater for listening to music which is why my L&R speakers are in the room. GIK felt, and I agree, that diffusion was the far better solution. If I were ONLY using the theater for movies, I would still ONLY use diffusion for the first reflection points. The only place where there is 100% absorption is on the screen wall. Everything else is a combination of absorption and diffusion/reflection.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I have not tried true diffusion at first reflections, but I am using BAD Panels which is both absorb and gentle diffusion. (Same as GIK Alpha's). 

I have thought about trying diffusion but I fear the imaging/focus of the soundstage will suffer.


----------



## audioguy

JonasHansen said:


> Thanks! I have not tried true diffusion at first reflections, but I am using BAD Panels which is both absorb and gentle diffusion. (Same as GIK Alpha's).
> 
> I have thought about trying diffusion but I fear the imaging/focus of the soundstage will suffer.



I am familiar with the BAD panels from RPG as I had them in my previous home but had to leave them as part of the home sale. They worked great. Diffusion at the first reflection improves soundstage and does nothing to hurt imaging but if you already are using BAD panels, keep them.


----------



## audioguy

Finally have all of the speakers installed and have re-calibrated the room - so am now running 11.x.10. No real improvement when up-sampling 2 channel music over my previous 9.x.6. But for movies that were mastered to take advantage of lots of speakers (e.g. Gravity and Hurricane Heist), it really is amazing. As I stated elsewhere, it is not the same kind of improvement as when moving from 7.1 to 7.x.4, but it is improvement nonetheless. And of course, DTS:X Pro now takes advantage of all 21 speakers (plus subs) in my room. My room definitely sounds better than ever. And really glad I made this upgrade.


----------



## Balbolito

audioguy said:


> Finally have all of the speakers installed and have re-calibrated the room - so am now running 11.x.10. No real improvement when up-sampling 2 channel music over my previous 9.x.6. But for movies that were mastered to take advantage of lots of speakers (e.g. Gravity and Hurricane Heist), it really is amazing. As I stated elsewhere, it is not the same kind of improvement as when moving from 7.1 to 7.x.4, but it is improvement nonetheless. And of course, DTS:X Pro now takes advantage of all 21 speakers (plus subs) in my room. My room definitely sounds better than ever. And really glad I made this upgrade.


Amazing news!

Want to know your opinion regarding the new added speakers, are they in general less important than the main 7 channels as they will be mostly doing effects and such? and might not even be really audible in most movies. 

Like for example LCRs should be the main foucs and usually the most important ones in any setup. Subs too. then maybe surrounds (sides then back) this is just my opinion and i could be wrong. 

So would you say speakers from the same family/timbre that are smaller(ceiling/in-wall/bookshelf) would do the job? 

And i am asking as i am planning to move to a Trinnov after a while and might gather some gear if i come across good deals. 

Another Q, are there any speaker setup guides for more than 16 channels that could be useful? maybe even up to 32 channels. something like the Dolby Atmos speaker setup guide. 

Thanks






Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

Balbolito said:


> Amazing news!
> 
> Want to know your opinion regarding the new added speakers, are they in general less important than the main 7 channels as they will be mostly doing effects and such? and might not even be really audible in most movies.


Not everyone has the same opinion on this. My ear level speakers are all Triads. My most recent adds (2nd set of side surrounds are Triad Bronze level speakers vs the other surrounds which are Silvers. The ceiling speakers closest to the seating are RSLs and the front heights are, again Triad Bronze. As for "audible in most movies"? Even when a particular speaker (e.g. top rear) is utilized while an object moves through it, you don't necessarily HEAR the specific speaker. The physical space that speaker occupies (and the space around it) just becomes better resolved as compared to if there were no speaker there. 



> Like for example LCRs should be the main focus and usually the most important ones in any setup. Subs too. then maybe surrounds (sides then back) this is just my opinion and i could be wrong.
> 
> So would you say speakers from the same family/timbre that are smaller(ceiling/in-wall/bookshelf) would do the job?
> 
> And i am asking as i am planning to move to a Trinnov after a while and might gather some gear if i come across good deals.
> 
> Another Q, are there any speaker setup guides for more than 16 channels that could be useful? maybe even up to 32 channels. something like the Dolby Atmos speaker setup guide.
> 
> Thanks


In MY opinion. and if you want to *maximize* the sonic landscape, ALL speakers should be by the same manufacturer,and again, i*deally*, should have identical tweeter and midranges. But, again, only in my opinion, the differences between having matching ceiling speakers and not matching, is less critical than having matching surround level speakers.

On the other hand, I have calibrated rooms where the LCRs were by one company, the surrounds were by another (but will be changed out to LCR matching) and the heights were yet another and the subs were yet another. *But one of the things that makes this particular room work so very well was the rather large investment (well north of $10,000) this individual was willing to make in passive room treatment.* Once he swaps out the surrounds to match his LCRs, (and ups his woofage count a tad) this will be the best home theater audio I will have ever experienced in any home. 

In your case, since you have JBLs for LCR and surrounds, as a first choice, find a less expensive JBL for use on your ceiling. 

As for speaker layouts other than Dolby, take a look at the most recent DTS:X Pro recommendations. The squares show where I have speakers (21 of them).












Here are the locations of my speakers:


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> Finally have all of the speakers installed and have re-calibrated the room - so am now running 11.x.10. No real improvement when up-sampling 2 channel music over my previous 9.x.6. But for movies that were mastered to take advantage of lots of speakers (e.g. Gravity and Hurricane Heist), it really is amazing. As I stated elsewhere, it is not the same kind of improvement as when moving from 7.1 to 7.x.4, but it is improvement nonetheless. And of course, DTS:X Pro now takes advantage of all 21 speakers (plus subs) in my room. My room definitely sounds better than ever.
> *And really glad I made this upgrade.*


Hi Chuck in or near Atlanta,

*I'm glad to see and read that you are well pleased with your latest Audio Up-Grades.* 

I'm hoping I can say the same thing one of these days when my Audio is Up-Graded.

Terry


----------



## craig john

Hi Chuck,

Did DTS:X Pro make any impact on the audibility and usefulness of your Wides? As you know, this has been my biggest complaint about Atmos/DST:X... the difficulty of implementing my Wides with the Marantz 8805... so I'm curious if DTS:X Pro made an improvement. Thanks. 

(Only 97 days to June 30th!!!) 

Craig


----------



## Balbolito

audioguy said:


> Not everyone has the same opinion on this. My ear level speakers are all Triads. My most recent adds (2nd set of side surrounds are Triad Bronze level speakers vs the other surrounds which are Silvers. The ceiling speakers closest to the seating are RSLs and the front heights are, again Triad Bronze. As for "audible in most movies"? Even when a particular speaker (e.g. top rear) is utilized while an object moves through it, you don't necessarily HEAR the specific speaker. The physical space that speaker occupies (and the space around it) just becomes better resolved as compared to if there were no speaker there.
> 
> In MY opinion. and if you want to *maximize* the sonic landscape, ALL speakers should be by the same manufacturer,and again, i*deally*, should have identical tweeter and midranges. But, again, only in my opinion, the differences between having matching ceiling speakers and not matching, is less critical than having matching surround level speakers.
> 
> On the other hand, I have calibrated rooms where the LCRs were by one company, the surrounds were by another (but will be changed out to LCR matching) and the heights were yet another and the subs were yet another. *But one of the things that makes this particular room work so very well was the rather large investment (well north of $10,000) this individual was willing to make in passive room treatment.* Once he swaps out the surrounds to match his LCRs, (and ups his woofage count a tad) this will be the best home theater audio I will have ever experienced in any home.
> 
> In your case, since you have JBLs for LCR and surrounds, as a first choice, find a less expensive JBL for use on your ceiling.
> 
> As for speaker layouts other than Dolby, take a look at the most recent DTS:X Pro recommendations. The squares show where I have speakers (21 of them).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the locations of my speakers:


Thanks for all the info lots of good things to consider. As you have mentioned i am using less expensive ceiling speakers. they are JBL 328c which are the same as the JBL SCS-8(which was used by JBL Pro in many of their past demos in shows) . main difference is that the SCS8 has its own u-bracket and is not an in-ceiling speaker and the 328c is an in-ceiling version of it. It's a very capable speaker with an 8 inch coax. 

In my case and for my room they work perfectly and play at reference without issues at all. they can keep up with my fronts and surrounds. 

Also not everyone agrees with this. but with EQ (curve same as the main 7 speakers) and proper amplification they just work perfectly. 

In your second set of surrounds with the Triad Bronze and your front heights in general is there less activity/sound in most lets say regular 5.1/7.1 movies compared to your main 7 speakers? which if i am not wrong should be the case. 

As an example, for ceiling speakers in an Atmos setup sometimes they would sound like they are off depending on the audio track of the movie itself. 


I am asking this to know honestly if i should stick to something like my ceiling speakers to my 2nd set of surrounds/wides/heights..etc or use something similar (same mid/tweeter) as my current surrounds. 

Thanks in advance


PS:already ordered an 8 channel amp which is on the way! 


Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> Did DTS:X Pro make any impact on the audibility and usefulness of your Wides? As you know, this has been my biggest complaint about Atmos/DST:X... the difficulty of implementing my Wides with the Marantz 8805... so I'm curious if DTS:X Pro made an improvement. Thanks.


You will be happy to know ---- It uses EVERY SPEAKER I have [shown with a square around it.]














> (Only 97 days to June 30th!!!)
> 
> Craig


But who's counting? (I assume you found your replacement) So you are obviously considered "essential services"


----------



## audioguy

Balbolito said:


> Thanks for all the info lots of good things to consider. As you have mentioned i am using less expensive ceiling speakers. they are JBL 328c which are the same as the JBL SCS-8(which was used by JBL Pro in many of their past demos in shows) . main difference is that the SCS8 has its own u-bracket and is not an in-ceiling speaker and the 328c is an in-ceiling version of it. It's a very capable speaker with an 8 inch coax.
> 
> In my case and for my room they work perfectly and play at reference without issues at all. they can keep up with my fronts and surrounds.
> 
> Also not everyone agrees with this. but with EQ (curve same as the main 7 speakers) and proper amplification they just work perfectly.
> 
> In your second set of surrounds with the Triad Bronze and your front heights in general is there less activity/sound in most lets say regular 5.1/7.1 movies compared to your main 7 speakers? which if i am not wrong should be the case.
> 
> As an example, for ceiling speakers in an Atmos setup sometimes they would sound like they are off depending on the audio track of the movie itself.
> 
> I am asking this to know honestly if i should stick to something like my ceiling speakers to my 2nd set of surrounds/wides/heights..etc or use something similar (same mid/tweeter) as my current surrounds.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> PS:already ordered an 8 channel amp which is on the way!
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


DTS:X will use up to 30 speakers. Atmos will only use what the mixer included on the disc because the Dolby up-mixer won't be activated. . Most mobvies are still locked to 7.x.4 but when the mix uses more (e.g. Gravity or Hurricane Heist or Ford v Ferrari or ....) then whatever you have installed will be used according to the mix.

I can't answer this question for you:


> "I am asking this to know honestly if i should stick to something like my ceiling speakers to my 2nd set of surrounds/wides/heights..etc or use something similar (same mid/tweeter) as my current surrounds.".


It all depends on if you want to insure you have the (theoretically) best possible sound in your room or if you are willing to make some "possible" sacrifices and get a speaker that does not have the same tweeter/mid-range. 

Here is my recommendation: As long as you continue with JBL and assuming you are "budget conscious", buy the lesser expensive speakers and use the savings to pay someone to calibrate your system. You will come out way ahead. Or if you want, buy the more expensive speakers AND still pay someone to calibrate your system. Or if, your room is not passively treated to the max, then also buy the less expensive speakers and use the savings ot properly treat your room AND pay someone to calibrate your system.


----------



## audioguy

tigerhonaker said:


> Hi Chuck in or near Atlanta,
> 
> *I'm glad to see and read that you are well pleased with your latest Audio Up-Grades.*


 Thanks.


Just prior to doing this upgrade, the bass in my room had gotten quite "wonky". When I looked at my settings in the miniDSP I realized that I had somehow messed up the delays to my rear subs relative to my front subs. When Tim McGinnis was here, it sounded poor as well. 

When I upgraded to the Altitude 32-24 from the Altitude 16, I corrected the bass and now, with the integration of all of the additional speakers, my room sounds better than it ever has, and with one exception, sounds better than any theater I have been in. Happy camper.

Terry: As I noted previously, the upgrade you are about to make to 7.x.6 will be the biggest improvement you will have ever heard in your theater - at least it was when I did so in my room and others (but not all) have agreed.


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Just prior to doing this upgrade, the bass in my room had gotten quite "wonky". When I looked at my settings in the miniDSP I realized that I had somehow messed up the delays to my rear subs relative to my front subs. When Tim McGinnis was here, it sounded poor as well.
> 
> When I upgraded to the Altitude 32-24 from the Altitude 16, I corrected the bass and now, with the integration of all of the additional speakers, my room sounds better than it ever has, and with one exception, sounds better than any theater I have been in. Happy camper.
> 
> *Terry: As I noted previously, the upgrade you are about to make to 7.x.6 will be the biggest improvement you will have ever heard in your theater - at least it was when I did so in my room and others (but not all) have agreed.*


Chuck,

I'm not stating this as a 100% fact but simply what I really think.
If I lived in a different location where there were and are Super-High-End A/V Dealers and their ( Factory/Manufacturer Qualified Senior Technicians).
I think I would be doing some of the things I have had the pleasure  of reading that you have and are continuing to do.
But .............
I don't and in my case I'm NOT even remotely what is referred to as Trusting, I'm Not at All.
So, I do things that I feel like I can get installed, professionally calibrated,
*after the initial rough-working-calibrations are performed*.
So, I am glad I am a long term member here on AVS and also being retired I have the Golden opportunity to see and read about you and some others that have the Best-of-the-Best. 



Thanks for continuing to post your Changes and IMHO Awesome improvements to your H/T. 


Terry


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> You will be happy to know ---- It uses EVERY SPEAKER I have [shown with a square around it.]


I am holding out hope that the Marantz 8805 will be firmware upgradeable to DTS:X Pro. If not, I'll be reviewing my options. Thanks for the confirmation!



audioguy said:


> But who's counting? (I assume you found your replacement)


There is a nationwide shortage of people who do what I do. The job market is tight! Fortunately, we interviewed a guy this morning who looks like an excellent candidate and seems genuinely interested. :fingers crossed: I'm done June 30th, no matter what. 



audioguy said:


> So you are obviously considered "essential services"


Fortunately, my wife still seems to think so! 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Fortunately, my wife still seems to think so!
> 
> Craig



Now that is funny!!


----------



## craig john

Hi Chuck,

I saw Tidal has just started streaming Atmos Music. Have you checked it out yet?

https://tidal.com/partners/dolbyatmos

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> I saw Tidal has just started streaming Atmos Music. Have you checked it out yet?
> 
> https://tidal.com/partners/dolbyatmos
> 
> Craig


i quit Tidal and moved to Quobuz quite some time ago. I got tired of having the genre of music of Jay Zee pushed in my face and their high rez stuff is MQA which I happen to believe is 100% nonsense.

Quobuz has lots of *REAL *high rez stuff and they have made huge strides in increasing their library over the time I have had it - and it's $5.00/month less than Tidal. Eventually Quobuz will probably get Atmos music and when they do, I will check it out. In the meantime, lots of great stuff to listen to.


----------



## audioguy

Balbolito said:


> In your second set of surrounds with the Triad Bronze and your front heights in general is there less activity/sound in most lets say regular 5.1/7.1 movies compared to your main 7 speakers? which if i am not wrong should be the case.


I just realized I never answered this. So sorry. 

If your processor supports DTS:X Pro and the associated Neural:X up-mixer, then those speakers (2nd set of side surrounds and 3 front heights) will most certainly get some use. But height speakers specifically play at somewhere between 10dB and 20db lower than the LCRs - which is a HUGE difference. So while a very few disagree with me, as long as the dispersion pattern of the ceiling speakers meets the appropriate requirements and/or the speakers are aimed directly at the MLP, and the Target curve close to matches that of the other speakers in the room, the necessity of those speakers being the same as the surrounds is not only not necessary, but indistinguishable. 

My processor allows me to instantly mute all of the speakers in my system but the one that I want to listen to. In doing so AND looking at an RTA chart while they are playing, it is clear the MOST of the content is very "mid-rangie". I have a tad over $50,000 (MSRP) in speakers in my room and the 7 speakers over my head cost, in total, $875. And they work just fine. My room and system are far from perfect, but changing out the overhead speakers would not even make the list of things I would consider to improve the audio in my room. 

As for my second set of side surrounds not being the same as all of the other surrounds? Given the role they play, the work just fine. Again, they have the identical target curve as the remainder of my ear level speakers. Might it be better in my room if they perfectly matched? I don't think so. Why? The differences in my room of 7.x.4 vs 11.x.10 are minimal at best. And I only have one row of seats, though I have set up a bar with 4 more seats but have yet to listen there. So listening from the main seating row, that second set of surrounds contributes very little in improving the immersiveness in what I hear. IF I cared about the quality of the audio for those sitting at our bar, then I most certainly would have used matching Silvers for my 2nd set of surrounds. But, I don't so I didn't.



> As an example, for ceiling speakers in an Atmos setup sometimes they would sound like they are off depending on the audio track of the movie itself.


I'm not sure under what condition that might occur.


----------



## scsper

@audioguy Looks like you have a great setup! I noticed in the thread / OP that you mentioned upsampling 2-channel audio to multiple channels, and it seems like you're really happy with it. Is it the Trinnov that does this? or something else? If it is the Trinnov, would the Altitude 16 be able to do it (vs the Altitude 32)?


----------



## audioguy

scsper said:


> @audioguy Looks like you have a great setup! I noticed in the thread / OP that you mentioned upsampling 2-channel audio to multiple channels, and it seems like you're really happy with it. Is it the Trinnov that does this? or something else? If it is the Trinnov, would the Altitude 16 be able to do it (vs the Altitude 32)?


I use Auro BUT with some features not found on the less expensive processors. Most certainly the Trinnov processors (16 and 32) are able to do so as are the Datasats. There may be others.

As for happy, that is an understatement - but only because of the features noted above - AND the way I set up the speaker profile. 

PM sent.


----------



## audioguy

I am making some changes to the front of my room (will end up with in-wall LCR speakers) and as a result, I am replacing two of my Seaton F18 Slaves with two with the thinner profile. See my Classified *HERE*


----------



## gwthacker

audioguy said:


> I am making some changes to the front of my room (will end up with in-wall LCR speakers) and as a result, I am replacing two of my Seaton F18 Slaves with two with the thinner profile. See my Classified *HERE*


Chuck- curious what changes you’re making in the room. Saw you’re selling the Platinums. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

gwthacker said:


> Chuck- curious what changes you’re making in the room. Saw you’re selling the Platinums.





gwthacker said:


> Chuck- curious what changes you’re making in the room. Saw you’re selling the Platinums.


Originally it was to purchase Triad Platinum In-Walls. I am now sconsidering other options. But the in-room Plats are definitely for sale!


----------



## audioguy

*MAJOR UPGRADE COMING*

About 4 years ago, at a CEDIA, I heard and fell in love with the audio during a HT Demo using all Wisdom speakers. That room contained (excluding the subs) well over $100,000 worth of Wisdom speakers. Even though we were sitting far from the optimal position in the room, it was the best sound we heard and simply have never been able to get that sound out of my head.

More recently, I was able to calibrate (Trinnov) a slightly more "modest" Wisdom room that was simply breath taking. I have been working with this client for a couple of years as he moved from some very nice point source speakers to now all Wisdom speakers. The best musical presentation I have ever heard in a home and for movies, just stupid good. So, I have decided that I want to replicate THAT room in my home. My new speakers will ship at the end of this month and I have someone coming in about 10 days to help me modify my room. The speakers will ship at the end of this month. 

For LCRs, I will be using 3 Wisdom Audio Sage Line 2 (see below). These require bi-amping using the Trinnov as the electronic crossover.











For surround (and Wide) duty, I will be using 6 of the Wisdom Audio L8i from the Insight Series:









Both of the Sage Line 2 and the L8i are about 4 feet tall.

While I may not be able to do so right out of the box, I will most likely be increasing my screen size so all speakers will be behind the screen. Until I do that, the L&R will be just to the outside of the screen.

So I will now be selling all of my Triad speakers. 

Measured at either improved sound quality ---- or MSRP --- this will be the most significant change I have ever made to my HT audio. I'm not getting any younger so decided o blow it out one last time and "go big".

[It was either this or a new Porsche but I spend more time in the theater than I do driving] 😁


----------



## audioguy

Post Deleted!


----------



## BrolicBeast

Whoa Whoa Whoaaaa!!!! BIG THINGS ARE HAPPENING!!! I remember you mentioning that the Wisdoms provided the best audio experience you’ve ever had. Glad you’re able to pursue that dream! I heard the Wisdom Audio room at CEDIA 2014 and it certainly sounded good. One thing that really stood out to me was the bass...had a ton of texture with no boom. The presence of soundstage was also great...the front soundstage had a ton of depth. I remember them having some brightness to the sound as well, but—this was a showroom floor. In a room like yours, with someone with your skill and equipment, that will be a non-factor (and I may not even be remembering that brightness correctly).

Now, going with line-array style speakers....how does that change your acoustic treatment plan (if at all)? I’d assume sound radiates very differently from the Wisdoms versus the Triads. Have you done any modeling to figure that part out? I know your friends at GIK take care of you on the acoustics front....any plans to have re-engage for this upgrade?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Now, going with line-array style speakers....how does that change your acoustic treatment plan (if at all)? I’d assume sound radiates very differently from the Wisdoms versus the Triads. Have you done any modeling to figure that part out? I know your friends at GIK take care of you on the acoustics front....any plans to have re-engage for this upgrade?


*Excellent* question my friend!! For the LCRs no change. For the surrounds/wides I will need treatment (diffusion/absorption) on both sides of each speaker. In the case of my left rear speaker, it is taken care of. My side surrounds and right rear surround are taken care of on one side but not the other. Since my LCRs will now be in a different position, that changes where my Wides will go so they will need treatment on both sides. I will be acquiring most, if not all, the additional necessary treatment from one of my clients (Altitude/Wisdom) who has all kinds of extra GIK stuff that meets my needs. A bit of what I'm doing would have been necessary even if I had just changed to using the Plats in-wall vs in room.

As for brightness, that is listener and room specific. Easy to fix with the Trinnov Room Optimizer!


----------



## gwthacker

audioguy said:


> *MAJOR UPGRADE COMING*
> 
> About 4 years ago, at a CEDIA, I heard and fell in love with the audio during a HT Demo using all Wisdom speakers. That room contained (excluding the subs) well over $100,000 worth of Wisdom speakers. Even though we were sitting far from the optimal position in the room, it was the best sound we heard and simply have never been able to get that sound out of my head.
> 
> More recently, I was able to calibrate (Trinnov) a slightly more "modest" Wisdom room that was simply breath taking. I have been working with this client for a couple of years as he moved from some very nice point source speakers to now all Wisdom speakers. The best musical presentation I have ever heard in a home and for movies, just stupid good. So, I have decided that I want to replicate THAT room in my home. My new speakers will ship at the end of this month and I have someone coming in about 10 days to help me modify my room. The speakers will ship at the end of this month.
> 
> For LCRs, I will be using 3 Wisdom Audio Sage Line 2 (see below). These require bi-amping using the Trinnov as the electronic crossover.
> 
> View attachment 3076011
> 
> 
> 
> For surround (and Wide) duty, I will be using 6 of the Wisdom Audio L8i from the Insight Series:
> 
> View attachment 3076012
> 
> Both of the Sage Line 2 and the L8i are about 4 feet tall.
> 
> While I may not be able to do so right out of the box, I will most likely be increasing my screen size so all speakers will be behind the screen. Until I do that, the L&R will be just to the outside of the screen.
> 
> So I will now be selling all of my Triad speakers.
> 
> Measured at either improved sound quality ---- or MSRP --- this will be the most significant change I have ever made to my HT audio. I'm not getting any younger so decided o blow it out one last time and "go big".
> 
> [It was either this or a new Porsche but I spend more time in the theater than I do driving]


Awesome. Just awesome. This is exciting. 

What about your ceiling/height speakers? 

Also with so many speaker models at Wisdom, how did you end up deciding on these specific ones? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

gwthacker said:


> Awesome. Just awesome. This is exciting.
> 
> What about your ceiling/height speakers?
> 
> Also with so many speaker models at Wisdom, how did you end up deciding on these specific ones?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


For now, I will continue to use my RSLs for Atmos. The MSRP of the Wisdom Atmos speakers is $2500 each vs my $125 each RSLs. If there really would be any audible difference, I can't afford it - unless Wisdom has a 90% off sale!!

All of the Wisdom speaker rooms I have previously calibrated use MEGA expensive speakers. The most recent being $40,000 per LCR speaker. A "tad" out of my price range. I knew it had to be one of their Line Array Speakers (vs their point source speakers) so the least expensive are the L8is that I will be using for surrounds. I heard a room with Wisdom Line Arrays up front and point source for surrounds but it lacked the magic. I strongly considered using those all around the room but finally decided that if I am going to do this, do it right. So the next up was the Sage Line 2. Each module is 2 feet tall (minimum 2 modules) and I have seen pictures of stacks with 6 modules in the largest in home theater in the world. After that, you move into the Wisdom Series. So, to answer your question, I started at the bottom of the Line Array speakers to select what I could afford. And I know what they can sound like since I have calibrated a room with the identical configuration.


----------



## Frohlich

audioguy said:


> *MAJOR UPGRADE COMING*
> 
> About 4 years ago, at a CEDIA, I heard and fell in love with the audio during a HT Demo using all Wisdom speakers. That room contained (excluding the subs) well over $100,000 worth of Wisdom speakers. Even though we were sitting far from the optimal position in the room, it was the best sound we heard and simply have never been able to get that sound out of my head.
> 
> More recently, I was able to calibrate (Trinnov) a slightly more "modest" Wisdom room that was simply breath taking. I have been working with this client for a couple of years as he moved from some very nice point source speakers to now all Wisdom speakers. The best musical presentation I have ever heard in a home and for movies, just stupid good. So, I have decided that I want to replicate THAT room in my home. My new speakers will ship at the end of this month and I have someone coming in about 10 days to help me modify my room. The speakers will ship at the end of this month.
> 
> For LCRs, I will be using 3 Wisdom Audio Sage Line 2 (see below). These require bi-amping using the Trinnov as the electronic crossover.
> 
> View attachment 3076011
> 
> 
> 
> For surround (and Wide) duty, I will be using 6 of the Wisdom Audio L8i from the Insight Series:
> 
> View attachment 3076012
> 
> Both of the Sage Line 2 and the L8i are about 4 feet tall.
> 
> While I may not be able to do so right out of the box, I will most likely be increasing my screen size so all speakers will be behind the screen. Until I do that, the L&R will be just to the outside of the screen.
> 
> So I will now be selling all of my Triad speakers.
> 
> Measured at either improved sound quality ---- or MSRP --- this will be the most significant change I have ever made to my HT audio. I'm not getting any younger so decided o blow it out one last time and "go big".
> 
> [It was either this or a new Porsche but I spend more time in the theater than I do driving] 😁


----------



## audioguy

Frohlich said:


> View attachment 3076042


Thank you! I am excited!!


----------



## tigerhonaker

Chuck (audioguy),

I don't know how I would have missed all the recent "Action" here on your Home Thread.     

Seriously I have had the *FOLLOW *thing turned on for like ever.
And I did look and it was still turned-on but I haven't received even 1-instant E-Mail notice on all your recent posts.
So, I UNFollowed this Thread and then Reactivated the *FOLLOW *so hopefully I'll get the instant notices again.

Anyway, Congratulations Sir to all the New soon to be changes for Speakers. 🏆

Not that you need my approval but what I read on one of your post said something about your age and doing things now and not waiting.
I'm one of the guys on here that can actually 100% relate to that thought process as June I'll be 76.
Also I think it might have also been on that same post you said something about you had considered a New Porsche.
But, after further consideration and thought you decided that you spent a heck of a lot more time in your Dedicated-Home-Theater than you would in a New Porsche.
Regarding the above comment ^^^ makes perfect sense to I think the greater majority of us on AVS.
Most of us IMHO have monies to do 1-Major thing at a time so we should weigh carefully what that 1-Major thing is going to be as you have.

I look forward as always to see/read all about these up-coming changes with all the new speakers.

Once again Congratulations,
Terry Honaker


----------



## audioguy

^^ Thank you.
Like many of my major decisions, there is a bit of "ready; fire; aim" at work here. There are some L&R speaker placement issues (even if I had stayed with the Triad in-walls) I have yet to resolve, specifically as to how the masking system enclosure could block some of the output of the L&R speakers; which might dictate getting rid of the current masking system; which could dictate getting a large screen; which could dictate getting another screen with a masking system; which could dictate spending WAY more than the WAY MORE I am already spending. But too late now!!


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> ^^ Thank you.
> Like many of my major decisions, there is a bit of "ready; fire; aim" at work here. There are some L&R speaker placement issues (even if I had stayed with the Triad in-walls) I have yet to resolve, specifically as to how the masking system enclosure could block some of the output of the L&R speakers; which might dictate getting rid of the current masking system; which could dictate getting a large screen; which could dictate getting another screen with a masking system; which could dictate spending WAY more than the WAY MORE I am already spending. But too late now!!


Chuck,

As you said above things can and do get way more complicated to what we sometimes originally considered/thought.
I can once again follow this for sure.
Maybe you should (Money-Permitting) go with the New-Larger-Screen with masking and the new speakers.
If it was me I know I would go with doing it all at one time and when it's all completed you can then once again sit down and enjoy the 100% completed project.
I know speaking for myself regarding 2020 and my HT it got way-way more complicated and went way beyond what I thought things were going to cost.
But, in the end it has really turned out A-OK and I'm glad I did do it all last year.

I think your going to give the additional cost some additional serious-consideration and after doing so ................
Your going to decide the heck with piece-milling-this I'm going to do it all and when done I'm done !!!

When Chuck I say you are done ............
I do know who I'm chatting with buddy so done in your world doesn't mean like "Forever".  🎬 

I'm thankfully once again receiving the instant E-Mail notices.
Terry


----------



## audioguy

The $ of the new screen and masking system is important but not the key issue. Some of it has to do with how large I can make my screen. According to Kris Deering, he doesn't think my PJ/Lumagen/Panamorph will support a ~150" screen (with my screen material) as that is what I would like to cover up the L&R speakers. I am somewhat surprised by his statement since I think I recall a number of other RS4500 owners have screens that large. I have just listed my masking system and screen for sale and if they sell, then I can decide what I will do. If they do not sell, I will remove my masking system and live with my screen.

Whatever is fine. I am PERFECTLY OK with my current screen size.


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> The $ of the new screen and masking system is important but not the key issue. Some of it has to do with how large I can make my screen. According to Kris Deering, he doesn't think my PJ/Lumagen/Panamorph will support a ~150" screen (with my screen material) as that is what I would like to cover up the L&R speakers. I am somewhat surprised by his statement since I think I recall a number of other RS4500 owners have screens that large. I have just listed my masking system and screen for sale and if they sell, then I can decide what I will do. If they do not sell, I will remove my masking system and live with my screen.
> 
> Whatever is fine. I am PERFECTLY OK with my current screen size.


Chuck,

I recall seeing on this AVS site where Stewart has introduced a New Masking Screen with as I recall a much-much thinner frame and lighter weight.
And of course in the Latest/New ST130 G4 material for increased 4K & HDR content.
I actually was going to check into that believe it or not with the last changes.
But, as Cathy & I looked at where a larger screen would actually end up left & right of the 123" 16X9 we now have.
We both came to the same conclusion that then those front left & right speakers would be way out to the left and right.
And the more we discussed it and watched more and more content on what we have now.
We agreed the heck with it as we have remote 4-way masking as well as now the ST130 G4 material thanks in part to Kris Deering's "Sound & Vision" article.

I hope all works out the way you really want things to go buddy. 

Terry


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> The $ of the new screen and masking system is important but not the key issue. Some of it has to do with how large I can make my screen. According to Kris Deering, he doesn't think my PJ/Lumagen/Panamorph will support a ~150" screen (with my screen material) as that is what I would like to cover up the L&R speakers. I am somewhat surprised by his statement since I think I recall a number of other RS4500 owners have screens that large. I have just listed my masking system and screen for sale and if they sell, then I can decide what I will do. If they do not sell, I will remove my masking system and live with my screen.
> 
> Whatever is fine. I am PERFECTLY OK with my current screen size.


I had that same conversation with Kris... and my screen material changed as a result! 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> I had that same conversation with Kris... and my screen material changed as a result!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


What Screen Material WILL work?


----------



## audioguy

The future home of "wide right" Wisdom Audio L8i. Sound absorption for inside the enclosure [which is open on the top and bottom, by the way] will be ordered on Monday. Why open, you ask? There is no upper limit for required cubic footage and this specific enclosure, if sealed, would be less than the upper end of Wisdom's recommended cubic footage!


----------



## audioguy

Message deleted - Repeat!!


----------



## audioguy

What a mess. While all of the important stuff (PJ, furniture, existing wall treatment, covering, etc) is covered in plastic, everything else is covered in the fine, fine dust particles from cutting MDF. The column covers have been modified, and the modification of the columns themselves will be completed tomorrow. Some OC703 is on the way to line all of the enclosure for Wides and Surrounds (in addition to the fluffy pink stuff). And the front wall work will begin tomorrow and should be completed by then as well: Move the door, build three areas for the LCRs, move electrical as necessary.

A complete re-do of a theater that was initially designed to work with "point source" speakers but now Line Source, is, as it turns out, no small task - but I keep reminding myself of the desired end point.

As a Post Script to this post, I have decided to actually test what I have proclaimed for many years: that the quality of the height speakers does not have to match the other speakers in the room. To that end, I will be using 4 of the Wisdom Audio ICS7a speaker for my height channels. But prior to installing them, I will be running the Wisdom Line Source system with my trusty RSL34Es. After I have done that for a while, I will install the Wisdom speakers and actually see if my proclamation has been accurate. Here is what I expect to hear: When comparing the two different speakers while playing 2 channel music through them, I expect a major difference. The Wisdom's have a much lower -3db point (40Hz) vs >80Hz on the RSL and much higher power handling capacity. And of course, the Wisdoms use a PMD for frequencies down to about 600Hz. And the MSRP is about 20 times that of the RSL. But I am still betting when all 13 speakers are playing, those differences will either evaporate or be inconsequential. 

If it turns out that I have been correct in the past, this will be the most expensive "test" I have ever run!


----------



## Frohlich

Exciting upgrades indeed. I recently installed 4 in wall speakers for surround and it left a much bigger mess than I ever anticipated with all the dry wall dust. The only thing I did right was cover my project ahead of time. Your project is much broader in scope so I can only imagine. Look forward to seeing the end results


----------



## audioguy

I know there is a theater construction thread but maybe there should be a theater destruction thread.

Door to equipment room being moved toward left wall to make room for left front speaker










All of the existing surround columns + the column covers have been modified to accept the new Line Source speakers (each 4 feet in length). And the column for the wides will be completed on Monday.

Just a mess. And the smell of cut MDF lingers in the air. Once all of this is done, it will be major carpet cleaning time.


----------



## craig john

OMG!!! I saw a post in the Triad thread saying your selling you're Triad speakers, so I come over here... 🤪😖 ... and I see your beautiful theater is all torn up! How can this be???

So reading back a bit, I find that you're upgrading to a full-on Wisdom Audio speaker system. OK, now I get it.  You have told me in the past that the only system you thought more highly of than the Plat's was Wisdom Audio, so it comes as _no surprise_ that you're going there. Congrats!!! I have also heard Wisdom Audio line arrays and they were also my all-time favorite speaker system, bar none. 

It will be exciting to follow the progress of this upgrade. I have literally dozens of questions, but I'll need to let this sink in before I get to them. 

Now I really hope I get my Covid vaccination so I can come down there and check this out! 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> OMG!!! I saw a post in the Triad thread saying your selling you're Triad speakers, so I come over here... 🤪😖 ... and I see your beautiful theater is all torn up! How can this be???
> 
> So reading back a bit, I find that you're upgrading to a full-on Wisdom Audio speaker system. OK, now I get it.  You have told me in the past that the only system you thought more highly of than the Plat's was Wisdom Audio, so it comes as _no surprise_ that you're going there. Congrats!!! I have also heard Wisdom Audio line arrays and they were also my all-time favorite speaker system, bar none.
> 
> It will be exciting to follow the progress of this upgrade. I have literally dozens of questions, but I'll need to let this sink in before I get to them.
> 
> Now I really hope I get my Covid vaccination so I can come down there and check this out!
> 
> Craig


Cheri and I got our first vaccination two days ago. So by the 21st of March, we will have past the time such that we are "allegedly" protected so you can come see us and you can't infect us!! And it will be warmer here!!

I can't explain all of the reasons that I like the Wisdoms so well but one of them is that they provide the cleanest, most distortion free presentation of vocals I have *ever* heard. One doesn't know the "weakness" of a speaker until you hear one that does not have that weakness (or at least a lot less of it). As you may recall, it took about 20 seconds for me to fall in love with your Plats when you played a cut from one of the Steely Dan albums. In addition, there are little subtleties that are audible that I don't hear in other speakers (I'm sure attributed to the PMD driver). And as you increase the volume, they simply never get harsh. As for the surrounds, they provide the unique ability to provide VERY similar SPL levels at each seat (a direct result of being a line source speaker.

But in the mean time, my room is an absolute mess!! Construction should end on Tuesday but I need to order (and/or make) some new passive treatments. Then finish the cosmetic component. The speakers ship on the 29th so maybe mid February I will have a theater again.


----------



## audioguy

audioguy said:


> For now, I will continue to use my RSLs for Atmos. The MSRP of the Wisdom Atmos speakers is $2500 each vs my $125 each RSLs. If there really would be any audible difference, I can't afford it - unless Wisdom has a 90% off sale!!


Yet one more example of me saying I'm not going to do something then change my mind a short time (or sometimes a long time) later. I have ordered the Wisdom Atmos speakers (did not get a 90% discount) so every speaker in the room will have the same kind of driver from about 600Hz north. Will I hear any difference? If I play two channel music through them vs the RSLs, I have ZERO doubt I will hear a difference. But when the 9 base layer speakers are playing along with the heights, then who knows. Even though I will be able to initially utilize the new bass layer speakers along with the RSLs and then switch to the Wisdom height speakers, I'm not convinced I will be able to discern differences. But, I am at least hoping "expectation bias" kicks in and I "at least" think I hear the difference. But, done deal anyway!!


----------



## audioguy

Soon to be home of 3 Wisdom Sage Line 2s. All of the (re)construction should be competed tomorrow. But LOTS of other stuff to do. Redesign room treatment approach and order and make panels; run 2 speaker wires to each of the framed out areas (speakers are bi-amped); cover 3 column covers in fabric; blah, blah, blah.


----------



## craig john

The old wall was so much prettier! 😁


----------



## Balbolito

nice progress, following this thread!


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> The old wall was so much prettier! 😁


Isn't that the truth. Hopefully tomorrow I can start building and ordering some fabric panels for finishing off the front wall, and bring back the "pretty". But I can assure you that is one very stable wall. The speakers attach to the studs and those are 2x10 studs for the L&R and 2x6 for the center channel. The won't move and neither will the wall they are mounted in. Same is true for the surrounds and wides.

Prior to making this decision, I was aware of some high end two channel "Line *Arrays*" (e.g. Scaena - previously known as "Nearfield Acoustics’ Pipedream"), and first assumed that the Wisdoms were the same, but, as it turns out, "Line *Arrays*" have some shortcomings that "Line *Sources*" do not. I won't go into that here but if interested can point you to some resources that can explain the differences far better than I can. *HERE* is a 24 minute Youtube video (not by Wisdom). And *HERE* is a technical paper (also not by Wisdom) from some time ago that can help explain the differences.


----------



## Craig Peer

Wisdom speakers are amazing - this looks like a killer audio upgrade!


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> Wisdom speakers are amazing - this looks like a killer audio upgrade!


Thanks. When we get to the level of, for example, where I was with the Triads, the additional cost to get a real improvement (rather than a difference) is not inconsequential. Terry bought a new Porsche. I've got lots (13) of new speakers. And I would most certainly agree with your comments about Wisdom speakers being amazing!!


----------



## audioguy

Just learned the shipment of my L8i's has been delayed at least 3 weeks !! FRUSTRATED !!!!!


----------



## Craig Peer

I can't afford my next level speaker wise right now ( or a new Porsche like Terry's ), but thanks to Cedia I know what I would get. I'll live vicariously through you for now!


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> Thanks. When we get to the level of, for example, where I was with the Triads, the additional cost to get a real improvement (rather than a difference) is not inconsequential.
> *Terry bought a new Porsche. *
> I've got lots (13) of new speakers. And I would most certainly agree with your comments about Wisdom speakers being amazing!!


Hi Chuck,

Well my Good-Man I am in the beginning of that process.
No-Allocation as yet.

I am seeing & reading both Threads on what your doing.
But, I cannot really add anything to your Latest/Newest Wisdom speaker Huge-Project as I simply don't know anything at all about them.
I'll just continue to follow and enjoy your pictures as you continue moving forward.

Of course I think we have posted so Many-many times that you already know I wish for you the Very-Best-Outcome. ✅ 



Craig Peer said:


> I can't afford my next level speaker wise right now ( *or a new Porsche like Terry's* ), but thanks to Cedia I know what I would get.
> I'll live vicariously through you for now!


Hey brother Craig,

Yes one New Porsche GT4 sometime this year.
As I said over on my dedicated thread I'm done in fact I'm over-done with my H/T. 🎬
I love it and so does Cathy and we are usually in it 7-days a week.
With the addition of the Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242 all the pictures are so Awesome.
(Thanks, ... Chuck-Craig-Woofer-Nigel-M. Garrett and the rest of the AVS Crew for recommending it)
Cathy frequently comments on the picture quality even as we stream from Dish Network.

Chuck hang-tough,
Terry
USA


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Just learned the shipment of my L8i's has been delayed at least 3 weeks !! FRUSTRATED !!!!!


Grrrr. Sawdust and tools laying around for 3 weeks! No HT for 3 weeks! Time for a 3 week vacation to New Zealand! It's summer down there! 

Sorry, just tryin' to cheer ya up!

Craig


----------



## audioguy

tigerhonaker said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> Well my Good-Man I am in the beginning of that process.
> No-Allocation as yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Chuck hang-tough,
> Terry
> USA


Even the new date that has been provided is "ify". Wisdom depends on sub contractors who depend on other contract


craig john said:


> Grrrr. Sawdust and tools laying around for 3 weeks! No HT for 3 weeks! Time for a 3 week vacation to New Zealand! It's summer down there!
> 
> Sorry, just tryin' to cheer ya up!
> 
> Craig


Actually the theater has already been down for a few weeks as I began trying to sell stuff , building the column for the Wides and getting ready for what I thought would be piles of speakers arriving next week. And if the product actually ships in 3 weeks, then add a week to get here and a few days to install and then calibration. I will be using this time so that when they do get here, all of the other stuff will be done (unless I order acoustic treatment from GIK who is running 10 weeks for availability). The sawdust will be gone by tomorrow or Thursday.. The tools will be around as I build fabric frames to hide the new columns and where the L&R speakers go. 

But I like the idea of New Zealand. We went there in 2016 with another couple and absolutely loved it. If I were to return (not likely any time soon) I would stay at least 3 weeks. BEAUTIFUL country. We drove lots of it (South Island) and even got to experience a fairly severe earthquake when we were there.


----------



## audioguy

Great post by a Supervising Sound Editor for feature films on the Wisdom Audio Thread about his experience with this product. Go *HERE*


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Yet one more example of me saying I'm not going to do something then change my mind a short time (or sometimes a long time) later. I have ordered the Wisdom Atmos speakers (did not get a 90% discount) so every speaker in the room will have the same kind of driver from about 600Hz north. Will I hear any difference? If I play two channel music through them vs the RSLs, I have ZERO doubt I will hear a difference. But when the 9 base layer speakers are playing along with the heights, then who knows. Even though I will be able to initially utilize the new bass layer speakers along with the RSLs and then switch to the Wisdom height speakers, I'm not convinced I will be able to discern differences. But, I am at least hoping "expectation bias" kicks in and I "at least" think I hear the difference. But, done deal anyway!!


I'm looking at the Wisdom website and I don't see a speaker specifically designated as an "Atmos" speaker. Which ones are you getting? 

Craig

Nevermind, I saw in the thread you posted above that you're getting the https://www.wisdomaudio.com/products/sage-ics7a/


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> I'm looking at the Wisdom website and I don't see a speaker specifically designated as an "Atmos" speaker. Which ones are you getting?
> 
> Craig
> 
> Nevermind, I saw in the thread you posted above that you're getting the https://www.wisdomaudio.com/products/sage-ics7a/


In addition, I purchased a magnetically attachable laser aiming device that I can move from speaker to speaker as I install them to get the PMD aimed EXACTLY at the MLP. There is also an included but used optionally "lens" to be able to modify the dispersion pattern. Plus it goes lower and has more power handling capability than do the RSLs. 

I am confident that when played by themselves, it will be a far better sounding speaker than the RSL- but not so sure when played as an Atmos speaker along with the other speakers in the room, I will be able to hear a difference. But since I have made the choice to buy them, I am making the choice to convince myself that they will make an improvement when all speakers are playing - and that, my friend, is expectation bias on display!!


----------



## craig john

These look AWESOME. Definitely a huge upgrade over the RSL, and certainly better than anything offered by Triad. The fact that they can be rotated and laser-aimed makes them ideal for Atmos applications. What is the angle of the baffle the planar driver is mounted in? Are you getting the "Extended Coverage Waveguide"? That seems like it would be highly beneficial for a multi-seat, multi-row application. 

That write up by the sound editor is excellent, (with his comment about the Wisdom STS subwoofer taken under advisement.) I need to get caught up with the thread you started. 

I hope my upcoming visit doesn't end up costing me 100x the price of the plane ticket! 🤪 🥺

Craig


----------



## craig john

craig john said:


> These look AWESOME. Definitely a huge upgrade over the RSL, and certainly better than anything offered by Triad. The fact that they can be rotated and laser-aimed makes them ideal for Atmos applications. What is the angle of the baffle the planar driver is mounted in? Are you getting the "Extended Coverage Waveguide"? That seems like it would be highly beneficial for a multi-seat, multi-row application.
> 
> That write up by the sound editor is excellent, (with his comment about the Wisdom STS subwoofer taken under advisement.) I need to get caught up with the thread you started.
> 
> I hope my upcoming visit doesn't end up costing me 100x the price of the plane ticket! 🤪 🥺
> 
> Craig


We cross-posted. 😁


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> I am confident that when played by themselves, it will be a far better sounding speaker than the RSL- but not so sure when played as an Atmos speaker along with the other speakers in the room, I will be able to hear a difference. But since I have made the choice to buy them, I am making the choice to convince myself that they will make an improvement when all speakers are playing - and that, my friend, is expectation bias on display!!


It may be expectation bias, but it's not unfounded expectation bias. I would expect improved imaging and directionality, as will as improved coverage over the RSL's. If I play a noise signal through one of my RSL's and then move around underneath it, I can clearly hear the change in response as I move off-axis. They're fine in my sweet spot, but they're "less fine" in my other seats. I think you can "expect" better sound source localization with the planar driver and better wide dispersion with the "Extended Coverage Waveguide".

Edit: Not tto mention the better timbre-match!!!

Craig


----------



## craig john

Are you planning to stick with your current subwoofer system?


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Are you planning to stick with your current subwoofer system?


At the moment, yes and I can not imagine not having my F18s up front. Since I moved the door to the equipment room into the corner where two F18s were, there would be no room to get into the equipment room and I didn't want to move the 4 subs under the screen. So I sold 2 of the F18 slaves and have purchased 2 of the "thinner profile" versions. So while part of the doorway will still be partially blocked, passage is still possible. And should I need access to the entire door width (like having to replace the HVAC air handler that is back in that portion of the house), I can slide the subs temporarily out of the way.

I have considered acquiring one of the Wisdom STS subs. I've calibrated a couple of rooms with them and they do some things that no other subs I have heard will do. And given their efficiency (101dB), power handling (5000 watts) and Max SPL (13dB), one in the rear of my room along with the 4 F!8s of front might just do the trick. 

What I don't like about them is that the limit at the top end (or low pass) is 80Hz. Seaton Subs all go north of 100Hz. Not a deal breaker since every product that will be in the room can easily reach 80Hz. The other thing I don't like about them is that they fall off the cliff once you get south of 20Hz. The F18s could easily fill the gap south of 20Hz. The unknown is how to integrate the two to make it work. I could have a low pass on the F18s at something like 40Hz (ish) and a high pass into the STS in the same area. What I don't know is (a) can a single STS handle all of the demands north of 40Hz; (b) how complex would the integration be when you are dealing with a ported and sealed sub combo; and (c) what's the trick to get a 300 pound sub up a flight of stairs !!!

N


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> At the moment, yes and I can not imagine not having my F18s up front. Since I moved the door to the equipment room into the corner where two F18s were, there would be no room to get into the equipment room and I didn't want to move the 4 subs under the screen. So I sold 2 of the F18 slaves and have purchased 2 of the "thinner profile" versions. So while part of the doorway will still be partially blocked, passage is still possible. And should I need access to the entire door width (like having to replace the HVAC air handler that is back in that portion of the house), I can slide the subs temporarily out of the way.
> 
> I have considered acquiring one of the Wisdom STS subs. I've calibrated a couple of rooms with them and they do some things that no other subs I have heard will do. And given their efficiency (101dB), power handling (5000 watts) and Max SPL (13dB), one in the rear of my room along with the 4 F!8s of front might just do the trick.
> 
> What I don't like about them is that the limit at the top end (or low pass) is 80Hz. Seaton Subs all go north of 100Hz. Not a deal breaker since every product that will be in the room can easily reach 80Hz. The other thing I don't like about them is that they fall off the cliff once you get south of 20Hz. The F18s could easily fill the gap south of 20Hz. The unknown is how to integrate the two to make it work. I could have a low pass on the F18s at something like 40Hz (ish) and a high pass into the STS in the same area. What I don't know is (a) can a single STS handle all of the demands north of 40Hz; (b) how complex would the integration be when you are dealing with a ported and sealed sub combo; and (c) what's the trick to get a 300 pound sub up a flight of stairs !!!
> 
> N


You are correct that you wouldn't want to run a ported subs like the STS through the same range as the sealed Seaton subs. The port output would be out-of-phase with the sealed subs at and around the port tune, and cancellation would result. But what you are describing would be analogous to using the STS as an mid-bass module, which hardly seems like an adequate use of that prodigious subwoofer. Also, you would be using the Seatons as "infra-subs" which is not really their bailiwick either. It's a tough call, and I have no personal experience with the STS sub, so can't offer any opinion on it. 

Good luck with that one.  

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> You are correct that you wouldn't want to run a ported subs like the STS through the same range as the sealed Seaton subs. The port output would be out-of-phase with the sealed subs at and around the port tune, and cancellation would result. But what you are describing would be analogous to using the STS as an mid-bass module, which hardly seems like an adequate use of that prodigious subwoofer. Also, you would be using the Seatons as "infra-subs" which is not really their bailiwick either. It's a tough call, and I have no personal experience with the STS sub, so can't offer any opinion on it.
> 
> Good luck with that one.
> 
> Craig


This idea is not on any current radar. It's just one of those things that fall into the category of the Scripture in Proverbs: "The idle mind is the Devil's workshop". In this case, Idle = Retired !!

But, my impression of the STS is that mid bass is really its strong suit. There is a demo scene in a movie (the title escapes me at the moment) where the actor stomps a lizard and then eats it. The "stomp" out of the STS if off the charts. Out of every other sub I have heard it through (including two rooms with 8b Seaton F18s,) it is more like a "thud". it is possible that the STS is "wrong" but it sure if fun !!


----------



## steelman1991

audioguy said:


> This idea is not on any current radar. It's just one of those things that fall into the category of the Scripture in Proverbs: "The idle mind is the Devil's workshop". In this case, Idle = Retired !!
> 
> But, my impression of the STS is that mid bass is really its strong suit. There is a demo scene in a movie (the title escapes me at the moment) where the actor stomps a lizard and then eats it. The "stomp" out of the STS if off the charts. Out of every other sub I have heard it through (including two rooms with 8b Seaton F18s,) it is more like a "thud". it is possible that the STS is "wrong" but it sure if fun !!


Reckon that would be “Mad Max Fury Road” .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> This idea is not on any current radar. It's just one of those things that fall into the category of the Scripture in Proverbs: "The idle mind is the Devil's workshop". In this case, Idle = Retired !!
> 
> But, my impression of the STS is that mid bass is really its strong suit. There is a demo scene in a movie (the title escapes me at the moment) where the actor stomps a lizard and then eats it. The "stomp" out of the STS if off the charts. Out of every other sub I have heard it through (including two rooms with 8b Seaton F18s,) it is more like a "thud". it is possible that the STS is "wrong" but it sure if fun !!


That scene sounds like the opening scene from MadMax: Fury Road. In my room, with my 3 Submersive HP+, that sounds more like a "stomp" than a "thud". But then, I've never heard it with a 130 dB horn-loaded sub, so I am not hearing what you heard. My transducer system adds the tactile motion that makes it a "stomp" but my Crowson's are low-passed at 40 Hz, so the tactile motion is all ULF and infrasonics, not midbass. I'm surprised your suspended floor doesn't do the same. 

I found the graph for MadMax:


















The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts...


The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts The original list The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts haven't been updated in a while. The original list has no clickable links for each movie graphs so you have to literally search 1000's of pages:( NOTES...




www.avsforum.com





Green = Peak Levels, Red = Average Levels. Bass peaks in the 30 Hz range and tapers off in volume above and below that. (That's an average of the whole movie, not just the "stomp" scene.) I'll try to take an RTA measurment of just the stomp later.

Craig


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Just learned the shipment of my L8i's has been delayed at least 3 weeks !! FRUSTRATED !!!!!


EVERYTHING is backordered right now, no doubt due to covid 19 problems. Projectors are especially hard to get. And speakers / receivers. Hopefully you get them with no further delay.


----------



## audioguy

steelman1991 said:


> Reckon that would be “Mad Max Fury Road” .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would be correct [brain cramp]


----------



## audioguy

My LCRs which were supposed to ship Friday, won't. Unknown delays since everyone is guessing. Company A depends on Company B who depends on Company C, who depends on Company D, etc. Anyone in the list gets hit, everything stop. Curse the Wuhan Virus!! Curse, curse, curse!!

At least most everything should be done when all of these speakers show up, so it will be a matter of installing them, connecting them, and calibrating the system. 

Curse the Wuhan Virus!! Curse, curse, curse!!


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> That scene sounds like the opening scene from MadMax: Fury Road. In my room, with my 3 Submersive HP+, that sounds more like a "stomp" than a "thud". But then, I've never heard it with a 130 dB horn-loaded sub, so I am not hearing what you heard. My transducer system adds the tactile motion that makes it a "stomp" but my Crowson's are low-passed at 40 Hz, so the tactile motion is all ULF and infrasonics, not midbass. I'm surprised your suspended floor doesn't do the same.
> 
> I found the graph for MadMax:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts...
> 
> 
> The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts The original list The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts haven't been updated in a while. The original list has no clickable links for each movie graphs so you have to literally search 1000's of pages:( NOTES...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green = Peak Levels, Red = Average Levels. Bass peaks in the 30 Hz range and tapers off in volume above and below that. (That's an average of the whole movie, not just the "stomp" scene.) I'll try to take an RTA measurment of just the stomp later.
> 
> Craig


This may be one of those situations where the "stomp" in that theater with the two STS subs is wrong, since the other theaters I have heard it in, including another one with 8 Seaton F18's/Wisdom speakers doesn't match that impact. If I ever get up and running again, I will have to take some measurements and see what is going on.

As for getting up and running again, there are so many "mini" tasks that need to get done prior to the speakers actually showing up. I'm finished getting the wiring in place for the LCRs (and having to do a massive re-wiring job in my equipment rack), finished treating the inside of the new columns, I'm still trying to finalize what passive treatments I will use, I need to order some gray and black GOM material for three of the columns that need to be covered (and cover them), create black GOM covered frames for the L and R speakers, order and install all of the other non-treatment decorative panels, ................... While I will love what the "new" theater looks like and sounds like when this is all completed, the work involved in getting to that point sometimes seems overwhelming.

One thing this project has done, however: the idea of EVER moving has gone from 99.999% to 100% that it won't happen (outside of a coffin or an urn). Moving your personal belongings and a bunch of furniture is one thing. Having to start from scratch and rebuild a complete theater, monumental in comparison. And at the risk of saying "no more upgrades" yet again, these speakers won't be replaced in my lifetime for a couple of reasons: (1) To get a SIGNIFICANT sound quality improvement (not just different) over what I will end up with when this project is completed would cost in the many 100's of thousands of dollars; (2) I don't EVER want to go through another project of this magnitude again. I am not saying no more upgrades but it sure won't be replacement speakers. (So it is said and so it is written).


----------



## ambesolman

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

More bad news. Estimated ship date of my Wisdom speakers is now March 11, 2021, more than 2 months after my order. And, FWIW, I have ZERO confidence in that date since it is mostly all out of their control. Bummed.

It's not just the speaker business that is having these issues either. My wife gave me a new set of Ping irons and Hybrids for our anniversary (in October). They have yet to ship to the dealer!!

Curse you Wuhan Virus!!!!


----------



## craig john

How ya holdin' up, my friend? 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

Doing OK. Thanks for asking.

While it was very disappointing to have the shipment of my speakers so delayed, I wasn't (and am still not) ready for them. Still re-building acoustic treatment as well as "decorative" panels [I still have 8 more large acoustical panels to build]; the internal double drywall was "pierced" as we built the new LCR speakers positions so getting that "sort of" repaired has taken a lot of (unplanned) effort; painting some trim; building (and covering) speaker column covers; and so on. Since the speakers are not supposed to ship until March 11th [hopefully], I'm taking my time on doing these projects. This is the longest I have been without having a theater to listen to music and watch movies in about 17 years. Definitely ready for this "re-do" to be over. And definitely ready to hear what these new speakers will produce. 

My two "thinner profile" Seaton F18's were shipped yesterday and should be here on Monday. These will allow me [limited - about 17"] access to my equipment room. 

We had our 2nd Covid shot a few days ago, and my only reaction has been a sore arm while my wife's response was a bit more severe (fever, headaches, body aches, out of breath easily). So that should allow us to get some [new version of] normality back in our lives.


----------



## craig john

Glad to hear you've both been vaccinated, although sorry to hear your wife had such a strong reaction. Hopefully she's feeling better. 🤞👍

I too have been "theater-less" on a few occasions, so I can relate to what you're dealing with. I also have a friend who is in the process of building an "epic" home theater, and was about 90% completed when he discovered that 2 of his Submersive amps were broken. He just sent them back to SpeakerPower yesterday. So, instead of getting to the end of the process, he's now waiting 3+ weeks to get his amps back. 😱 🤬 He's a very unhappy camper now as well. Oh well, this too will pass...

Hang in there. 😎

Craig


----------



## Craig Peer

Everything is delayed right now, home theater wise. Hopefully the delays ease up in a month or so.


----------



## audioguy

All done with the front wall (less some room treatment on both sides of the screen and under it)


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> All done with the front wall (less some room treatment on both sides of the screen and under it)
> 
> View attachment 3094287


Looking good! Given the spacing, am I guessing right at 160" wide for your screen? If so, you will NOT be sorry! 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## craig john

Will your L/R speakers be behind the screen? Or, like your previous system, L/R speakers outside screen edges? What aspect ratio screen will you use? Will you have masking, and if so, will you use side masks on a scope screen or top/bottom masks on a 16:9 screen? Or, possibly some other AR/masking scenario? What AT screen material will you be using? 

I know... 60 questions... I'm just curious what you're planning. 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

If I were going to get a larger screen, 160" is exactly right. But; given Kris Deering's warnings about the ability to extract enough brightness, the lack of availability of someone to come calibrate it, and the (not surprising) fact that the expenses for this upgrade have far surpassed my original budget, a new larger screen will have to wait.

And while this may come as a surprise, a larger screen was only on my radar in order to facilitate hiding my left and right speaker. But since I have made the design choice that I did, it is now no longer necessary. And the left and right speaker will sit just outside of my current screen.

About 30 years ago, I learned an important lesson (for me). I was on a business trip to Los Angeles and took some time to visit what was primarily a 2 channel store (Christopher Hansen Audio in Beverly Hills). That was the first time I had seen a full on "home theater" - and it had a Sony CRT projector and about 100" screen (along with a Snell THX set of speakers). 

The next day, I was in Sacramento and visited another place that also had a "home theater" setup. The audio was identical to the store in Los Angeles but it used a 50" Mitsubishi projection TV. And they demoed that same material. While the much larger screen in LA was very impressive, once the demo began, *I became just as "immersed"* in the movie as I had in LA even with the much smaller screen. Moral of the story (for* me*): Audio is the *far stronger* component in pulling me into a movie than is video. I am not suggesting a larger screen is not better, because *up to a point* it is better. 

The Atlanta dealer I work with has a ginormous screen in one of his demo rooms. To say it is impressive when entering the theater would be an understatement. But (for me) it is too large. Maybe for the same reason (when I actually went to movie theaters) that I never sat anywhere near the front of the theater. 

I will NOT say I will NEVER get a larger screen - bu no time soon


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Will your L/R speakers be behind the screen? Or, like your previous system, L/R speakers outside screen edges? What aspect ratio screen will you use? Will you have masking, and if so, will you use side masks on a scope screen or top/bottom masks on a 16:9 screen? Or, possibly some other AR/masking scenario? What AT screen material will you be using?
> 
> I know... 60 questions... I'm just curious what you're planning.
> 
> Craig


See my response to Matt. My old masking system did not have AT masks so it would not work with either the speakers behind it or the speakers next to it. And since it was made specifically for my screen, I tried to sell them both as a package but without success. So I trashed the masking system and kept the screen. 

I will operate for a while without masks and try the Non Linear Stretch function of the Lumagen to see if that is satisfactory. If not, I will build some "masks" that I can attach with either magnets or velcro. Given the costs of a new screen with masks, that will have to be pretty far down the list of "upgrade options".


----------



## audioguy

PS: My current screen is 120" x 51", made by Seymour and uses the XD material. More than adequate in size. And if I want the effect of "larger" I can move my seats further forward (already moved about a foot from where it was with my Triad speakers and have yet to experience that). Based upon the "rules" established for seating distance per screen size, I am just behind where they recommend. And moving my seats forward is a lot less complex and costly than buying a new screen.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> See my response to Matt.


Like you, I am an "audio first" kinda guy. 😎 In fact, I actually prefer a somewhat "less large" screen. As you know, I recently changed my screen and went a little smaller, (from 120" diagonal to 115" diagonal 2.35:1.) I am more than happy with the immersiveness of the slightly smaller image. I contemplated going larger than my previous screen to allow for LCR speaker placements behind the screen, but at my seating distance of 9.5', a larger screen would have been overwhelming, (at least to my wife and I.) Indeed, we both find the 92" diagonal, 16:9 image, as well as the 115" diagonal, 2.35:1, to be "just right" for us. 

Nonetheless, if you ever do decide to go with a larger screen and speakers behind, Seymour makes AT masking panels. They're made with the Millibel AT materiel and the frames are lined with Fidelio Velvet. I can't speak to the AT-ness of the Millibel because my speakers are not behind the screen, but I can say that the Millibel is sufficiently non-light-reflective enough that it makes a more-than-acceptable masking material. 




__





Seymour AV | Center Stage screens


Seymour AV is the premier manufacturer of acoustically transparent home theater projection screens in the world, maintaining the highest standards in projection screen innovation, design and craftsmanship




seymourav.com







audioguy said:


> My old masking system did not have AT masks so it would not work with either the speakers behind it or the speakers next to it. And since it was made specifically for my screen, I tried to sell them both as a package but without success. So I trashed the masking system and kept the screen.
> 
> I will operate for a while without masks and try the Non Linear Stretch function of the Lumagen to see if that is satisfactory. If not, I will build some "masks" that I can attach with either magnets or velcro. Given the costs of a new screen with masks, that will have to be pretty far down the list of "upgrade options".


I'm not familiar with the "Non-Linear Stretch Function" of the Lumagen, but I've never found any other image stretching function acceptable. Does it stretch 16:9 to fill the entire scope screen? If so, I would personally not want to watch that for very long. Alternatively, Seymour makes some Fidelio Velvet masking panels that, (IMO), would be a better option than stretching the image. (See the above link at SeymourAV.)

I will say that, since I bought my new screen with the masking system, (drop down side panels for a retractable scope screen), I don't know how I ever went without a masking system previously. 



audioguy said:


> PS: My current screen is 120" x 51", made by Seymour and uses the XD material. More than adequate in size. And if I want the effect of "larger" I can move my seats further forward (already moved about a foot from where it was with my Triad speakers and have yet to experience that). Based upon the "rules" established for seating distance per screen size, I am just behind where they recommend. And moving my seats forward is a lot less complex and costly than buying a new screen.


If you move the seats forward, will you need to move the speakers, (surrounds and overheads), to accommodate the new seating position? 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

I have had an automated masking system for about 10 years so going without will be interesting. Prior to going automated, I had masking panels that I made to hang when needed. I will first try using NLS and assuming that doesn't work, will see if the panels made by Seymour will work on my screen. Given what I am spending for this upgrade, coming up with another >$6K for an automated masking system is out of the question - unless my still working wife insists on purchasing one for me because ....?

As for moving any of my speakers if I move my seats, the answer would be a very strong NO!!. The amount of work to do so will simply not be worth it. I will be moving forward *at most* 12 inches, but even if I moved more, I would make use of Trinnov's speaker re-mapping function before I would ever consider moving any more speakers.


----------



## audioguy

The front wall is ready to accept my LCR Wisdom Sage Line 2's - and they are still (allegedly) shipping on March 11th. The remainder of the columns for the surrounds and wides are ready to accept the six Wisdom insight Series L8i's. Three of the columns need to have the fabric added (or repaired) but that fabric has spent the last 10 days "stuck" in Memphis. So between The Wuhan Virus and Snow Storms, things are not going as fast as I would like. But, I still have work I can do in building the remaining acoustic panels for the front portion of the room (AND ..that fabric is back ordered as well). I should have all of the remaining panels built this weekend but can't complete them since neither the gray nor the black fabric is available.

Maybe someday !!


----------



## audioguy

The thinner profile Seaton F18's are in the house. I still have (marginally restricted) access to my equipment room so it worked out perfectly. The guys are "meaner" looking than their fatter brothers!! I still wonder why I have EIGHT of these things - but I do!! I have now built all of the frames for the various panels and "fake" panels and waiting for fabric and more OC 703 to finish them off. Getting closer !!


----------



## audioguy

Just got notified that none of my speakers are available (were supposed to ship tomorrow) and it will be more than another month (Wisdom can only guess since their suppliers are the issue) before they can ship anything. Not a happy camper to say the least and I need to look at alternatives -- but given the major room re-construction I have done, not sure what my options are. I can't re-install my Triad LCRs (at least the centre channel) since the space now available (part of the room re-construction, won't allow it to fit. Disappointed does not even come close to how I am feeling.


----------



## Craig Peer

That sucks. There are a lot of delays right now in a variety of products.


----------



## craig john

I don't believe there is an "alternative" for you. These have been your dream speakers since before you got the Triads. 

That vacation to New Zealand is looking better all the time. 😉


----------



## audioguy

The "temporary" alternative is to use 2 or 3 of my In-Room Silvers as LCRs and use the two in-ceiling Silvers as side surrounds. The space for the center channel is likely not deep enough for the depth of the Silver, so may end up with 5.x.6. At least I would have something to watch/listen to until the Wisdoms are made/shipped. I'm in the process of finishing up the last of the empty "decoration" panels and room treatment,. and then I need to run a bass sweep test to see if my new columns are solid enough. Once that is done, I will see how much work it is to create a way to use the Silvers. 

New Zealand is awesome !!


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> Just got notified that none of my speakers are available (were supposed to ship tomorrow) and it will be more than another month (Wisdom can only guess since their suppliers are the issue) before they can ship anything. Not a happy camper to say the least and I need to look at alternatives -- but given the major room re-construction I have done, not sure what my options are. I can't re-install my Triad LCRs (at least the centre channel) since the space now available (part of the room re-construction, won't allow it to fit. Disappointed does not even come close to how I am feeling.





audioguy said:


> The "temporary" alternative is to use 2 or 3 of my In-Room Silvers as LCRs and use the two in-ceiling Silvers as side surrounds. The space for the center channel is likely not deep enough for the depth of the Silver, so may end up with 5.x.6. At least I would have something to watch/listen to until the Wisdoms are made/shipped. I'm in the process of finishing up the last of the empty "decoration" panels and room treatment,. and then I need to run a bass sweep test to see if my new columns are solid enough. Once that is done, I will see how much work it is to create a way to use the Silvers.
> 
> New Zealand is awesome !!


Morning Chuck,

Well buddy I hate this on going waiting thing for you. 

I think if I were to offer a "Positive" comment it is ..............
Just keep reminding yourself that the incoming speakers are exactly what you Really-really want.
And the Wait is going to not even matter one bit once those arrive and you see them in person in your Dedicated Home Theater UN-Boxed !!!

Hang-Tough my Good-Man as personally I have found at my age there are some things worth us waiting on as I am doing myself currently. 

Stay-Safe & maintain-positive-thoughts,
Terry


----------



## audioguy

@tigerhonaker 

Thanks Terry. I have no doubt that if and when I get these speakers installed it will be worth it. 

While I get the _"personally I have found at my age there are some things worth us waiting on" _comment, at our age the time frame in front of us is a lot shorter than most on this forum, so living without a theater (first time in 30 years) is eating into my time that I can enjoy it. And the most annoying part is that Wisdom really is not able to give me a firm delivery date. On Monday of this week, the "firm" date for shipment was today, until I was notified yesterday that it is "at least 4 to 6 weeks away" and I have zero confidence in that date. It could well turn into many months before they have this all worked out. It is really not their fault as they depend on other suppliers. It is all the fault of the "Wuhan Virus".

What is the delivery date for your new Porsche?


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> @tigerhonaker
> 
> Thanks Terry. I have no doubt that if and when I get these speakers installed it will be worth it.
> 
> While I get the *"personally I have found at my age there are some things worth us waiting on" comment, at our age the time frame in front of us is a lot shorter than most on this forum,* so living without a theater (first time in 30 years) is eating into my time that I can enjoy it. And the most annoying part is that Wisdom really is not able to give me a firm delivery date. On Monday of this week, the "firm" date for shipment was today, until I was notified yesterday that it is "at least 4 to 6 weeks away" and I have zero confidence in that date. It could well turn into many months before they have this all worked out. It is really not their fault as they depend on other suppliers. It is all the fault of the "Wuhan Virus".
> 
> What is the delivery date for your new Porsche?


Chuck,

I hope you don't mind this post as it's taking your Dedicated Thread way the Hell off Topic buddy.
(I don't mind at all editing the content and removing any comments if you like _No-Hurt-Feelings_ at all buddy)



> Terry ...*"personally I have found at my age there are some things worth us waiting on" *
> Chuck ...*comment, at our age the time frame in front of us is a lot shorter than most on this forum, *


Believe me Chuck I am following you 100% on what you are saying and where you are coming from *^^^
And as I have said and I think you might have seen that's why I made the decision I did in December 2019 on the GT4 order.*

I did discuss with Cathy about going with the Newest Stewart 16x9 W/Remote masking G4 larger screen in maybe 130" or so as it would easily fit.
And I think based on my completely "Pitch-Black" HT environment if I didn't go crazy with the size and also it having the new G4 material it would work for Brightness.
But ...........
Then here goes again with the HT having to be re-calibrated for Audio & Video plus what the heck was I going to do with what I currently have ???
And that ^^^ to me is a nightmare trying to sell HT components/gear even if it's Top-of-the-Line..............
The more I thought about it the more I thought to myself, Terry *STOP* your current overall system is killer leave it alone Dumb-Ass. 

And lastly I had already discussed with Cathy about me wanting, maybe, the Porsche GT4 and there was and is No-Way I could do both if we wanted to be safe money-wise in case of any unseen emergency.

Below is the Link to the Latest on the GT4.
*2021 Cayman 718 GT4 "Allocation" is "Confirmed" ... 3/8/2021
GT4 in Racing-Yellow ordered 12/29/2020 by Terry aka tigerhonaker - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums*


Terry


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> The "temporary" alternative is to use 2 or 3 of my In-Room Silvers as LCRs and use the two in-ceiling Silvers as side surrounds. The space for the center channel is likely not deep enough for the depth of the Silver, so may end up with 5.x.6. At least I would have something to watch/listen to until the Wisdoms are made/shipped. I'm in the process of finishing up the last of the empty "decoration" panels and room treatment,. and then I need to run a bass sweep test to see if my new columns are solid enough. Once that is done, I will see how much work it is to create a way to use the Silvers.
> 
> New Zealand is awesome !!


I like the idea of using the Silver Monitors temporarily. 🙂 That at least gets you "back in the game" until you get the Wisdom's. 

The other night, Vicki and I watched a series on Netflix called "Moving Art." They had an episode on New Zealand. Stunning! I want to go... 

We're scheduled for our first dose of the Pfizer vaccine this weekend, so I'm thinking we'll be able to start traveling again soon. We're big tennis fans, so maybe a trip to the Aussie Open next year with a side trip to New Zealand. 😃😊 Of course, that's after a trip to Georgia! 😁

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> We're scheduled for our first dose of the Pfizer vaccine this weekend, so I'm thinking we'll be able to start traveling again soon. We're big tennis fans, so maybe a trip to the Aussie Open next year with a side trip to New Zealand. 😃😊 Of course, that's after a trip to Georgia! 😁
> 
> Craig


Looking forward to your visit. I you come 6 months from now, I may have my speakers by then!


----------



## audioguy

*Progress:* My six L8i's (surrounds and wides) and four ICS7's (heights) are shipping today or tomorrow. By the time I get all of that installed and working properly, hopefully the Sage Line 2's (LCRs) will be ready to ship. Joyful, joyful!!!

*Insight L8i









Sage ICS7a








*


----------



## craig john

Excellent NEWS!! Hopefully the mains will be right behind!

Second dose in 3 weeks, so a trip to GA is goona happen soon! Maybe this summer?


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Excellent NEWS!! Hopefully the mains will be right behind!
> 
> Second dose in 3 weeks, so a trip to GA is goona happen soon! Maybe this summer?


Thanks. And this summer should work. Given I will soon at least have some speakers, I am now more optimistic that the others might follow in 2 or 3 more weeks!! That should get me enough time to dial it all in! I should "finish" the room this weekend so next week will be running bass sweeps to find the rattles and fix the ones I can.

While the delay has been frustrating, I really could not have used the system even if they were here earlier as there has been so much work to do!! So it is all working out!!


----------



## hometheatergeek

[


craig john said:


> Excellent NEWS!! Hopefully the mains will be right behind!
> 
> Second dose in 3 weeks, so a trip to GA is goona happen soon! Maybe this summer?





audioguy said:


> Thanks. And this summer should work. Given I will soon at least have some speakers, I am now more optimistic that the others might follow in 2 or 3 more weeks!! That should get me enough time to dial it all in! I should "finish" the room this weekend so next week will be running bass sweeps to find the rattles and fix the ones I can.
> 
> While the delay has been frustrating, I really could not have used the system even if they were here earlier as there has been so much work to do!! So it is all working out!!


Hey Craig and Chuck, I've been following along with your awesome upgrade project Chuck. I had a serious health issue in 2020 that caused me to be let go from my job and I ended up taking SSDI benefits. So I am now retired at 62 years of age. Therefore I'm wondering if you have room for another guest when Craig comes down for a visit? Maybe by then I will be less dependent on using a walker to get around so I can hear the Wisdoms in a home theater environment. I have only heard the speakers at the last CEDIA that I attended. I have not had the freedom shots (heard this description this morning on Fox News lol). I should have been in phase 1C, due to health issues, but when I registered the other day they put me in phase 2. Congrats to you Chuck on the new speakers finally shipping.


----------



## audioguy

So sorry to hear about your health issues - and that you lost your job as a result (is that even legal?). And if we can time the visit - and have had your "freedom shots" (love that), you are welcome to come and hear/see. My room is up a flight of stairs just so you know. Stay in touch.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Chuck,

Well buddy I see things are already moving forward in the right direction. 
I'm glad for you that things are now putting a smile  on your face.

Hang-Tough,
Terry


----------



## craig john

hometheatergeek said:


> Hey Craig and Chuck, I've been following along with your awesome upgrade project Chuck. I had a serious health issue in 2020 that caused me to be let go from my job and I ended up taking SSDI benefits. So I am now retired at 62 years of age. Therefore I'm wondering if you have room for another guest when Craig comes down for a visit? Maybe by then I will be less dependent on using a walker to get around so I can hear the Wisdoms in a home theater environment. I have only heard the speakers at the last CEDIA that I attended. I have not had the freedom shots (heard this description this morning on Fox News lol). I should have been in phase 1C, due to health issues, but when I registered the other day they put me in phase 2. Congrats to you Chuck on the new speakers finally shipping.


I certainly don't have any objections to that! I always enjoy meeting and commiserating with other fellow enthusiasts! Especially non-infectious ones! 

BTW, you're the guy with the Klipsch Forte's, right? We've spoken before, haven't we? 

Craig


----------



## hometheatergeek

craig john said:


> I certainly don't have any objections to that! I always enjoy meeting and commiserating with other fellow enthusiasts! Especially non-infectious ones!
> 
> BTW, you're the guy with the Klipsch Forte's, right? We've spoken before, haven't we?
> 
> Craig


 I thoroughly plan to be up to date on my freedom shots before venturing out. And Yes we have met before and Yes I'm still using my Crites modified Forte II Klipsch speakers. I am also one of the forum members who is a proponent of gain matching multiple subs.


----------



## audioguy

Just got word the my 3 Wisdom Sage Line 2's have shipped. While they are (allegedly) going to get here in 5 (ish) days, based upon the first shipment (still not here), my guess would be closer to 10 days. BUT, they are on the way !! - and all of the room construction/modification is complete so I am ready !!


----------



## Craig Peer

Thank goodness. I'm looking forward to hearing your finished theater report!


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> Just got word the my 3 Wisdom Sage Line 2's have shipped. While they are (allegedly) going to get here in 5 (ish) days, based upon the first shipment (still not here), my guess would be closer to 10 days. BUT, they are on the way !! - and all of the room construction/modification is complete so I am ready !!


Great news!


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> Thank goodness. I'm looking forward to hearing your finished theater report!


Me too. It will be about 3 months since I ordered them - but all good things come to those who wait (or something like that).


----------



## gwthacker

audioguy said:


> Me too. It will be about 3 months since I ordered them - but all good things come to those who wait (or something like that).


Don’t feel bad- I ordered JBL SCL5s in late 2019. That’s not a typo . Redesigned and then COVID. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

During the last 4 months or so since my theater has been down, I have continued to buy movies. Some were upgrades from DVD to BluRay, some from BluRay to 4K and some new I had not seen (in either BR or 4K). So as a result, I now have over 40 movies/Concert Videos in my "to-be-watched list". Tenet is in there even though I have watched it but only understood about 4% of what I saw so with another 25 viewings, I might have it figured out.


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> Just got word the my 3 Wisdom Sage Line 2's have shipped. While they are (allegedly) going to get here in 5 (ish) days, based upon the first shipment (still not here), my guess would be closer to 10 days. BUT, they are on the way !! - and all of the room construction/modification is complete so I am ready !!


Greetings Chuck from Franklin, TN.



See buddy you are living right,
Terry


----------



## beastaudio

Miss Congeniality 2. Real banger there, lol...


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> Miss Congeniality 2. Real banger there, lol...


Can’t all be shoot ‘em up/bang bang movies + I like Sandra Bullock!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

My Sage Line 2’s will be here Thursday and L8i’s being delivered today!! Yeah!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

Gotta love the trucking companies. No shipment arrived and their on-line site says I refused the shipment but not possible. I could SCREAM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Gotta love the trucking companies. No shipment arrived and their on-line site says I refused the shipment but not possible. I could SCREAM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


They do this when someone didn't load it into the truck, but said they did. I had this happen with a new desk I ordered last week. I stayed home and remained at the front of the house all day, and not a single delivery truck stopped at my house... Yet, the tracker said I refused shipment. The desk arrived the next day. Today is the day for you.... They'll be coming!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Today is the day for you.... They'll be coming!


Given we live in a very small community, 1.5 to 2 hours away from Atlanta, they don't come here every day. So the NEW date is tomorrow (Wednesday). They claimed that the 48 foot trailer could not come into our neighborhood, which is "odd" since that is the trailer length that was used to deliver my thin line Seatons 3 weeks ago via FedEx!! 

Will be interesting to see what kind of "issues" pop up when I am supposed to receive my LCRs on Thursday (but via UPS).


----------



## tigerhonaker

Morning Chuck,

And this is *{Wednesday}* so things just might be jumping sometime today for you. 🎬

Hope you have a Great-Day buddy,
Terry


----------



## audioguy

Got all 6 mounting brackets for the surrounds installed. I am very impressed with the incredibly well engineered speaker mounting kit approach. The speaker mounting frame is bolted to mounting rails that are on the other side of the drywall 
(or in my case MDF). So the speaker, mounting frame, drywall and mounting rails become one integrated unit. And zero chance of the wall moving to create any kind of distortion. If interested, *HERE* is a video better describing what I am referring to,


----------



## audioguy

Surrounds/Wides (L8i's) and Heights (ISC7a's) arrived (Paid the truck driver to haul them upstairs)









ISC7a:








Mounting Bracket











L8i Installed:











As is the case with virtually ALL tasks, the actual speaker install took way more time than expected. If you let the speaker sit at the very bottom of the mounting frame, the holes don't line up so we had to insert one of those pads you put under chair at the bottom of the frame to lift up the speaker. Then, we still could not see the hole into which the bolt was supposed to go. There is a rubber mounting gasket behind the edge of the actual speaker and it was blocking the hole through which the bolt goes. In some cases, the space had been notched out (there are 18 holes in each speaker for mounting) but in the vast majority, it had not been so we had to come up with a way to notch it. Once that was done, the install is very straightforward - and very secure.


----------



## craig john

So, are you gonna get a new receiver to drive these? I hear Sony's are the best! 😂🤣

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> So, are you gonna get a new receiver to drive these? I hear Sony's are the best! 😂🤣
> 
> Craig


Can't afford a receiver at the moment. Will be using my 12.5 watt/channel tube amps into my 1965 Scott Receiver. !!


----------



## hometheatergeek

That L8i once installed looks great Chuck.  I say it needs no speaker cover. Can't wait to come over to hear this system. I did get my first "Freedom Shot" this last Wednesday.


----------



## audioguy

hometheatergeek said:


> That L8i once installed looks great Chuck.  I say it needs no speaker cover. Can't wait to come over to hear this system. I did get my first "Freedom Shot" this last Wednesday.


Thanks. They are pretty cool looking but I decided to cover all of my speakers and treatment a long time ago, and these will be covered as well.


----------



## audioguy

This should not come as a surprise, but I just heard from UPS that the LCRs that were originally to be delivered on Thursday, then today, are now delayed until next Wednesday, "allegedly" due to weather. So they left Carson City, NV on March 25th, and will arrive here on April 7th. And Wisdom paid extra to insure they would be here in 5 days!! 

I have no doubt at least some of this is due to a huge increase in demand, and I will give a bit to the weather, but why did UPS not know until just now that a shipment that was to be delivered in the next 8 hours, won't be here for another 5 days? I now remember why I quit using UPS a LONG time ago to ship anything that that needed to be delivered at anything close to a reasonable time frame. 

So, so frustrating.


----------



## craig john

Shipping SUCKS! I recently had a USPS package arrive at my local PO, and then get sent back to the regional distribution center, then sent to another zip code that was similar to mine with 2 numbers transposed, then back to the regional center, then back to my local PO, and then _finally_ to me. It added over 10 days to the delivery time, for which I had paid for 2-Day delivery! 

PO doesn't stand for Post Office... it stands for PI$$ED OFF!


----------



## audioguy

I left a set of keys at the car dealer in Augusta, GA 80 miles away. He shipped them to me (USPS), they went through Atlanta, sat in Atlanta for >10 days, then I eventually got them!! And think about if/when we have to use Government Healthcare!!


----------



## audioguy

Getting Closer.


















Now I just need some LCRs!!


----------



## audioguy

Today, I will PEQ the subs and the surrounds/wides (from ~60Hz to ~300Hz). That much less to do when the LCRs show up. Then I wait  !!


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> This should not come as a surprise, but I just heard from UPS that the LCRs that were originally to be delivered on Thursday, then today, are now delayed until next Wednesday, "allegedly" due to weather. So they left Carson City, NV on March 25th, and will arrive here on April 7th. And Wisdom paid extra to insure they would be here in 5 days!!
> 
> I have no doubt at least some of this is due to a huge increase in demand, and I will give a bit to the weather, but why did UPS not know until just now that a shipment that was to be delivered in the next 8 hours, won't be here for another 5 days? I now remember why I quit using UPS a LONG time ago to ship anything that that needed to be delivered at anything close to a reasonable time frame.
> 
> So, so frustrating.


The last 5 items I had delivered via FedEx were one or two days later than their tracking said. In fact I have a package coming today that was supposed to arrive yesterday. It’s not just UPS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JonasHansen

@audioguy: Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but what chairs are those? They look very soft and comfy! (I'm searching for chairs for my own build).

Your theater looks great by the way!


----------



## audioguy

JonasHansen said:


> @audioguy: Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but what chairs are those? They look very soft and comfy! (I'm searching for chairs for my own build).
> 
> Your theater looks great by the way!


They were made by BerkLine and they are incredibly comfortable. They are a very soft fabric. Leather is nice but, is very reflective. These act as bass absorbers. They are probably 9+ years old and don't know if they make anything like this any longer.

And thanks for the kind words!


----------



## audioguy

All installed but have yet to try to get them to make noise.










Update: They do make noise - and will calibrate tomorrow!


----------



## craig john




----------



## audioguy

^^ Way too funny. 

I have already done the "pre-calibration" work on the subs, wides and surrounds. (basically PEQs) but the bi-amped LCRs are a different animal.

Wisdom provides the high and low pass filter settings (LR 4th order) and the crossover frequencies. They also provide an "offset" which in this case you lower the trims on the PMDs by 4dB. And then you PEQ that speaker. Wisdom provides a set of PEQ settings but they are based upon a "pseudo anechoic" environment - and hence I never use them. I have OmniMic calculate the PEQs based upon my desired target curve (usually only south of about 400Hz). The Trinnov then allows you to "calibrate speaker" where it determines the EXACT delays of the closest column of drivers in that specific speaker and calculates the exact level differences. But I am getting weird results. In the past (not my room/speakers), if I use a -4dB offset, the Trinnov might change it by a portion of a dB or so. But in my case, it changed it by a bunch and the resultant measurements were WAY off. Further investigation will be required. But I'm getting closer.

I did do a really quick setup yesterday and listened to some music segments. Two things are evident: the sound is very "clean" and if you crank the volume well above what any person would ever listen, they simply only get louder, NEVER any harshness. That has never occurred before on ANY speakers I have ever owned: Wilson, Thiel, Dunlavy, Seaton, Triad Plats, Magnepan, B&W, Apogee. Usually the tweeter gets angry and make really ugly noises.


----------



## audioguy

We have "lift off". Finished "a" calibration, listened to some music and watched a movie (Greenland - which I had never seen), and a few video clips and scenes. The good news: I remember why I bought these. There is a sense of magic and scale and size and clarity and dynamics that are very addictive.

There has been some discussion on how important speaker dispersion pattern is in the ability to provide the most fulfilling immersive experience in a home theater. So I tried a test that I heard about from Wisdom. I played stereo music (vocalist) and begin walking toward the screen. Amazingly, there is a well defined center image until my nose actually touched the screen. And inch away from the screen, it was there. Other than another line source speaker, I'm not sure how many speakers can do that!!

The less than good news, and on another matter, these speakers and my current target curves like each other but don't love each other, so this week will be spent trying to fine tune.

As a very long time two channel "purist" (but no longer), I remember why every theater I have had for the last 30 years had the L&R speakers out in the room (vs behind a screen). That elusive depth of the audio field (important when listening to 2 channel music) only works at its best when the L&R speakers are out from the front wall. But even now experiencing that reduction of the depth, I would still do this all over again. Because while I gave up some depth, I got so much more by making *AuroMatic* part of the listening process with an *all line source set of speakers*: a sense of scale and immersive-ness that no 2 channel system will ever be able to match. And that is true with a vocal soloist or a huge choir. I listened to the cut Psalm 8 "The Majesty and Glory of Your Name" from the Turtle Creek Choral CD called "Psalms". It was recorded at Meyerson Symphony Center in Dallas, TX. In 2 channel, it is REALLY excellent. What I heard yesterday was well past that. Again, the sense of scale, immersivenness and vocal clarity, being able to easily delineate individual voices spread across my entire room and far into the room. Simply magic and very transformational when listening to music. And it adds significant emotion to the listening experience.

I listened to the clip from "Unbroken" that Andrew DeChristofaro (@Drewde88) commented on as he had been the sound guy that did the audio for that movie. While I have watched that scene more times than I can count, it certainly took on new character when I watched this time. I don't know if you can overdrive these speakers but I played that scene REALLY loud and more so than ever before. Wowzer. Just amazing. Everything was better defined, cleaner, more impactful, better dynamics.

Also played the hotel scene from Atomic Blonde, and played it very loud. Unreal. Worn out after watching that scene. Again, it only gets louder, not harsh (unless the recording is harsh)

I've still got some serious fine tuning to do but I made a great decision.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Chuck, I’m really happy that you’re all set up after such a long wait! I’m actually listening to a Podcast by HiFi Fanatics right now and they have a Wisdom Audio guy on and he just described the ability to walk toward the screen and experience barely any volume increase (a concept that is nuts to me) but I’d say this is the same vein as your comment of the soundstage not falling apart even up against the screen. He also mentioned that the Wisdom sage line does not radiate above or below, so reflections on the ceiling and floor are not a concern. Could be marketing—what are your thoughts on this?

How does the center channel work in terms of imaging? Do the cone (?) drivers on one side and the planar drivers on the other come together in the middle to create a dead center image? Or is the center channel offset by a few inches?

Once all is said and done, pleaaaase post your final measurements here and in the Wisdom thread (both of which I follow). 

BTW—I really enjoyed Greenland. One scene really stands out as a a great Atmosssss demo but I enjoyed the audio presentation quite a bit. Video was pretty good, but could have been a little sharper, methinks!!! What were your thoughts on Greenland? 




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

I have Greenland on BluRay and it is in DTS, not Atmos, but I did enjoy the movie. It is in 4K (and I assume Atmos) as a streaming option but I refuse to watch anything streamed with the over compressed audio when it is available in uncompressed on disc. I haven't spent what I have on the audio side of my theater to accept less than the best when there is an option. 

As for the speakers not radiating above and below the top and bottom of the speakers, that is part of the science of line source vs point source. So accurate, not marketing nonsense.

The acoustic center of these speakers is in the middle of the speaker, between the two columns. During setup, the Trinnov computes the necessary delays between the columns to insure they arrive at the MLP at the EXACT same time. So the center channel image is where it should be.

Here are the plots (1/12 Oct Smoothing) of the LCRs (post PEQs and Optimizer). Not sure about the slight rise north of 10K nor does this look exactly like the target curve. Still lots of work to do!!


----------



## audioguy

I finished up "*a* final " calibration today and my wife and I watched a full length movie this evening: "The Outpost" with a DTS-HD MA 5.1 audio track. Nothing I have ever heard in our theater has ever approached the level of immersive-ness, dialog clarity, mid bass impact, sonic detail, slam and dynamics we experienced. Even my wife noted (who never says ANYTHING about the theater) that it was the most immersive experience she has heard/seen. Given it was a (true) action war movie, for her it was almost overwhelming. For me, it totally justified the expense, wait, work, and effort we put in to get this "Oconee Theater Version 3.0" up and running. The audio passed my expectations - which were very high. Consider me a very happy new Wisdom Audio home theater client.


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> I finished up "*a* final " calibration today and my wife and I watched a full length movie this evening: "The Outpost" with a DTS-HD MA 5.1 audio track. Nothing I have ever heard in our theater has ever approached the level of immersive-ness, dialog clarity, mid bass impact, sonic detail, slam and dynamics we experienced. Even my wife noted (who never says ANYTHING about the theater) that it was the most immersive experience she has heard/seen. Given it was a (true) action war movie, for her it was almost overwhelming. For me, it totally justified the expense, wait, work, and effort we put in to get this "Oconee Theater Version 3.0" up and running. The audio passed my expectations - which were very high. Consider me a very happy new Wisdom Audio home theater client.


Chuck (audioguy),

Well my AVS internet posting buddy.  

I offer my congratulations and also to say that as long as you are happy and it surely does seem you are per your Post above. 🎬
That's really all that matters IMHO for what that's worth on an internet site.

I feel the same way in regards to my 2020 install of the Triad Atmos system.

Congrats again,
Terry


----------



## audioguy

Go *HERE* if you have any interest in seeing the how and why I got to this point from an all Triad speaker system (or not).

*Current Equipment List:

VIDEO EQUIPMENT*: *JVC Z9/RS 4100 Laser Projector*; *Panamorph Paladin Lens; Lumagen**RadiancePro; Seymour Acoustically Transparent 2:35 120 x 51 inch screen *(~1.0 Gain - XD Material);

*SPEAKERS:* Room is setup in a 9.5.6 configuration. LCRs: *Wisdom Audio Sage Line 2*; Surrounds and Wides: (6) *Wisdom Audio L8i*; SUBS: *1 Ascendo SMSG32 Infrasonic Subwoofer* (32" Infrasonic Sub Driven by 10,000 Watts - Middle of rear wall); Ascendo 18-2 Sub Passive Sealed - Dual 18" drivers in a single enclosure (not currently on the Ascendo Website) - One in each front corner, each driver driven by 2500 Watts; 3D Audio ceiling speakers: (6) *Wisdom Audio Sage ICS7a*

*ELECTRONICS:* *Trinnov Altitude 32-24* Surround Processor; *Pure Power APS 2000* Power Conditioner; (3) A*TI - AT54XNC Amplifiers* - 1 Six Channel, 1 Seven Channel and 1 Eight Channel

*SOURCES:* *Synology NAS DS1817+* (32TB/~22TB Usable); *Nvidia Shield* for viewing ripped movies via Plex; *Kaleidescape Strato-C Movie Player* & *12TB Terra Movie Server*; *Apple TV 4K* = access to Apple TV+, Netflix, Amazon, YouTube TV; *Oppo 203* 4K Blu Ray Player; *SGC (Small Green Computer) sonicTransporter i5 CDR *for running Roon Core for music playback (ripped files and Qobuz) and collection management.

*ACOUSTIC TREATMENT:* Room design by *GIK*. GIK *q7D diffusors* (2 per side - between Wides and Side Surrounds) - Covered by acoustically transparent cloth; 4" Thick Custom Bass Traps/Reflectors next to Wides and Side Surrounds partially covered with HVAC foil strips; First side wall Reflection Points - all absorption; rear side wall*s: GIK Monster Bass Traps *with* Scatter Plates* (3 per side); Rear wall: (3) GIK q7D's with (2) *GIK Monster Bass Traps* with *Scatter Plates*; Left rear corner: *GIK Soffit Traps**;* Front corners: Custom corner traps; Soffit: DIY soffits traps; Ceiling Cloud: *GIK 244 Bass Traps*

*MISCELLANEOUS:* *Araknis* Ethernet Switch; *Control 4* System Controller; Berkline Seating; *Josh.ai* voice control system; Room Dimensions: 22' x 19' x 8'

Construction/installation is complete --









































Now onto enjoying --- and tweaking, and diddling, and re-calibrating, and enjoying ........


----------



## steelman1991

Nice “stealth” install. I know it’s sounding good cause you told us so, but it’s looking good too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## craig john

Things look GREAT Chuck! I can't wait to visit and hear this upgrade! In the meantime, I have a bunch of questions...

With all 3 LCR's behind the screen, do get any sense of a more "pinched" front soundstage compared to your previous speakers where the L/R's were placed outside the screen edges?


Do you have Wides in your new system?
What speakers are you using for overheads for 3D sound? Are they line sources or point sources? How many overheads are you using, and how and where are they mounted and aimed?


What is your final subwoofer system? How have you integrated the subs with the speaker system? What crossovers and slopes are you using?


Would you say this is system more or less "sweet-spot-centric" than your previous system? IOW, how close in sound are the seats other than the PLP to the sound heard in the PLP? (This question goes to the cylinder shaped dispersion patterns of line sources vs. the more conical shaped dispersion of point sources.)


Did you change your acoustic treatment plan to accommodate the new dispersion patterns of these speakers vs. the Plat's? In particular, did you add or remove any absorption on the sidewalls at the first reflection points. What about ceiling absorbers?
A while back, you posted a YT video by Danny Ritchie explaining the line source speaker concept, which was excellent. Many years ago, DR had designed a set of line arrays for AV123 called the LS-9's. 


















AV123 Focus Line Source 9 (LS9) pictures!


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...7-page-10.html Quote: Are you ready for this!? The speakers shown here are yet another new design from Mark Schifter at AV123. They are called the LS9s, with nine ribbon tweeter/mids and twelve woofers. The price? $3,995/pair. At nearly 8 feet high...




www.avsforum.com





I had placed a deposit for those speakers and I was anxiously awaiting their finished product when the whole AV123 fiasco/disaster happened. Fortunately for me I got my deposit back just before the implosion, (before Mark "Shifty" Schifter went to jail). I ended up "whole" but quite a few people lost their money on that one. In spite of all that, I was really disappointed that I never got those speakers. I have always been intrigued by the whole line array/line source concept, especially the cylindrical dispersion pattern, the reduced/eliminated interactions with the floor and ceiling, and the decreased propagation loss. I've attached a paper I found back then written by Jim Griffin from 2003, which, at that time, was kind of the seminal paper about line arrays in the DIY world. Watching Ritchie's video, it seems the technology has improved considerably since then. 

I had heard Wisdom Audio systems twice at trade shows and was blown away by their sound. I am really anxious to hear them in your system. 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Things look GREAT Chuck! I can't wait to visit and hear this upgrade! In the meantime, I have a bunch of questions...
> 
> With all 3 LCR's behind the screen, do get any sense of a more "pinched" front soundstage compared to your previous speakers where the L/R's were placed outside the screen edges?



. Actually, my L&R are next to the screen and not behind it. A number of reasons: (a) the angle of the speakers would have been smaller than I wanted; and (2) I would have had to move a lot of electrical stuff to make it work.



> Do you have Wides in your new system?


 I do. They are the same speakers as I use for the surrounds (Wisdom L8i - Line Source)



> What speakers are you using for overheads for 3D sound? Are they line sources or point sources? How many overheads are you using, and how and where are they mounted and aimed?



I am using 4 Wisdom Point Source speakers that use PMDs as do all of the ear level speakers. The crossover between the PMDs and woofer is ~650Hz while the crossover for the surrounds and LCRs is about 350Hz. They are the ICS7a. See *HERE*. I purchased a separate laser aiming device that attaches magnetically over the PMD so they can be aimed EXACTLY at the MLP and they come with an Extended Coverage Waveguide – ECW that is designed to enhance its polar pattern and allow for greater placement options



> What is your final subwoofer system? How have you integrated the subs with the speaker system? What crossovers and slopes are you using?


 Still have 4 F18's up front (2 in each corner) and 4 across the back of the room. I did sell two "regular" F18's and bought 2 of the slim line versions to allow room for me to get into the equipment room. Still experimenting on the crossover and slope but as I write this, I am using LR 4th order.





> Would you say this is system more or less "sweet-spot-centric" than your previous system? IOW, how close in sound are the seats other than the PLP to the sound heard in the PLP? (This question goes to the cylinder shaped dispersion patterns of line sources vs. the more conical shaped dispersion of point sources.)


As you know, line source speakers don't follow the inverse square law of point source so as you move closer to the speaker, it does not get as loud. And the Trinnov has a seat weighting system which, coupled with the line source surrounds allows you to get much better seat to seat consistency. I can weight every seat in the row the same and the other seats hear pretty much the same. BUT, that means that no seat is as good as it can be. I am a selfish listener and no one else who visits us would no the difference anyway, so I weight 100% to the center seat (50% to dead center and 25% each to the area just off dead center - maybe 8")





> Did you change your acoustic treatment plan to accommodate the new dispersion patterns of these speakers vs. the Plat's? In particular, did you add or remove any absorption on the sidewalls at the first reflection points. What about ceiling absorbers?


 I kept the ceiling absorbers only because I did not want to take them down. Line source don't require them. Next to each surround/wide speaker is (soon will be) a combination of absorption and diffusion. With my Triads side surrounds, I had diffusion/absorption on one side and absorption on the other.



> A while back, you posted a YT video by Danny Ritchie explaining the line source speaker concept, which was excellent. Many years ago, DR had designed a set of line arrays for AV123 called the LS-9's.


Those are really line "arrays" vs line source. In the Wisdom (line source), it has a single 4 foot long PMD. The speakers shown use multiple tweeters. The key difference is that the arrival time of each tweeter in a line array is different so there is an issue with lobbing. When you see huge line array speakers at live events (or like churches) you will see that they tend to curve backward as you get to the lower part of the speaker to attempt to deal with the delay. And if the speakers below were Wisdoms, Wisdom would tell you to put the PMDs on the inside so the mid/high frequency signal does not have to pass through the woofer signal to get to your ears (see the image above of my LCRs).










And the following has NOTHING to do with Wisdom vs Triad but a friend of mine (has awesome 2 channel system/home theater with his mains being Magico driven by Spectral amps) found the following LFE target on the WhatsBestForum on the Dirac thread.

If you are able to shape it this way in your room (don't remember if Audyssey has this granularity), I would give it a go. I am tuning the lower part of that curve to get the tactile response in my room to my liking (remember I am on a suspended floor). But for the few demo scenes and movies that I have tired it, I really like it. My friend has dual SubMersives in the rear and dual Seaton one-of-a-kind ported dual 18's up front. The F18s are a bit more efficient south of 50Hz than are the SubMersives so I may tune the bottom half of mine a tad different than he does.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Actually, my L&R are next to the screen and not behind it. A number of reasons: (a) the angle of the speakers would have been smaller than I wanted; and (2) I would have had to move a lot of electrical stuff to make it work.


Ahhh, I missed that. Excellent!


audioguy said:


> I do. They are the same speakers as I use for the surrounds (Wisdom L8i - Line Source)


Excellent. Any thoughts on what they add to the immersiveness? I know previously you weren't that impressed with Wides. 


audioguy said:


> I am using 4 Wisdom Point Source speakers that use PMDs as do all of the ear level speakers. The crossover between the PMDs and woofer is ~650Hz while the crossover for the surrounds and LCRs is about 350Hz. They are the ICS7a. See *HERE*. I purchased a separate laser aiming device that attaches magnetically over the PMD so they can be aimed EXACTLY at the MLP and they come with an Extended Coverage Waveguide – ECW that is designed to enhance its polar pattern and allow for greater placement options


Those look really awesome. They check all the boxes... completely aimable, wide dispersion and sealed enclosures. I presume they're an excellent timbre-match to the rest of the WA's. Can't do better than that for ceiling speakers. 


audioguy said:


> Still have 4 F18's up front (2 in each corner) and 4 across the back of the room. I did sell two "regular" F18's and bought 2 of the slim line versions to allow room for me to get into the equipment room. Still experimenting on the crossover and slope but as I write this, I am using LR 4th order.


I am curious how the onmi-directional propagation of subwoofers integrates with the cylindrical propagation of line sources. Does it even matter? Does the propagation of the speakers become more omni-directional as frequencies get lower? 


audioguy said:


> As you know, line source speakers don't follow the inverse square law of point source so as you move closer to the speaker, it does not get as loud. And the Trinnov has a seat weighting system which, coupled with the line source surrounds allows you to get much better seat to seat consistency. I can weight every seat in the row the same and the other seats hear pretty much the same. BUT, that means that no seat is as good as it can be. I am a selfish listener and no one else who visits us would no the difference anyway, so I weight 100% to the center seat (50% to dead center and 25% each to the area just off dead center - maybe 8")


When I was a kid, I had 7 brothers and sisters. When it came time to watch TV, we would all "call" our spots on the couches and chairs, and you didn't dare get up without calling your seat was "saved". When I come to visit, I call the sweet spot and it's saved until I leave! 😁 😁


audioguy said:


> I kept the ceiling absorbers only because I did not want to take them down. Line source don't require them. Next to each surround/wide speaker is (soon will be) a combination of absorption and diffusion. With my Triads side surrounds, I had diffusion/absorption on one side and absorption on the other.


Just curious, are there different recommendations for treating a room with line sources than standard point source speakers? My undertsanding is that line sources have very wide horizontal dispersion. Do you want to absorb those early reflections or allow them to persist? Toole's recommendation would be to allow them to persist to add "spaciousness", but you may have all the spaciousness you need with your speaker arrays and the additional reflected sound may not be beneficial. I don't know the answer, and that's why I asked the question.



audioguy said:


> Those are really line "arrays" vs line source. In the Wisdom (line source), it has a single 4 foot long PMD. The speakers shown use multiple tweeters. The key difference is that the arrival time of each tweeter in a line array is different so there is an issue with lobbing. When you see huge line array speakers at live events (or like churches) you will see that they tend to curve backward as you get to the lower part of the speaker to attempt to deal with the delay. And if the speakers below were Wisdoms, Wisdom would tell you to put the PMDs on the inside so the mid/high frequency signal does not have to pass through the woofer signal to get to your ears (see the image above of my LCRs).


Yes, they were probably not the most optimal deployment of the line-array concept. The video you posted earlier shows that Danny Ritchie has learned alot about them since he designed the LS-9's. 



audioguy said:


> And the following has NOTHING to do with Wisdom vs Triad but a friend of mine (has awesome 2 channel system/home theater with his mains being Magico driven by Spectral amps) found the following LFE target on the WhatsBestForum on the Dirac thread.
> 
> If you are able to shape it this way in your room (don't remember if Audyssey has this granularity), I would give it a go. I am tuning the lower part of that curve to get the tactile response in my room to my liking (remember I am on a suspended floor). But for the few demo scenes and movies that I have tired it, I really like it. My friend has dual SubMersives in the rear and dual Seaton one-of-a-kind ported dual 18's up front. The F18s are a bit more efficient south of 50Hz than are the SubMersives so I may tune the bottom half of mine a tad different than he does.
> View attachment 3124980


I'm confused... is that the "shaped" signal being sent to the subs or is that the response of the acoustic output of the subs? Why would it be beneficial to have a peak at 50 Hz instead of a rising response below 80 Hz? My concrete floor doesn't provide tactile like your suspended floor does. In my system, I use the Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators for tactile response and I send the transducers an unaltered signal direct from the analog subwoofer output of my Oppo. My subs get a target curve from Audyssey that adds about 9 dB of increase from 80 Hz to 20 Hz, which is similar to the Harman target curve. (The <20 Hz response is all room gain, not anything I'm doing with Audyssey.) Here is the output of my subwoofers:










They sound really good, but are you suggesting I implement the curve you posted above? It's not hard to do with Audyssey and the curve editor in the Audyssey app, but I'm not sure why I would like that response better than what I have now?

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Excellent. Any thoughts on what they add to the immersiveness? I know previously you weren't that impressed with Wides.


The distance between my L&R and their respective surrounds is a good bit longer since my speakers are no longer in the room. So the virtual image between them that existed previously is a lot less precisely defined.



> When I come to visit, I call the sweet spot and it's saved until I leave! 😁 😁


 Fair enough



> Just curious, are there different recommendations for treating a room with line sources than standard point source speakers? My undertsanding is that line sources have very wide horizontal dispersion. Do you want to absorb those early reflections or allow them to persist? Toole's recommendation would be to allow them to persist to add "spaciousness", but you may have all the spaciousness you need with your speaker arrays and the additional reflected sound may not be beneficial. I don't know the answer, and that's why I asked the question.


 I was provided a copy of the treatment plan used in the Wisdom Audio demo room at their headquarters. While mine is not exactly the same, I have a similar concept. My front wall was and is still treated with 2" absorption material. My back wall is a combination of pure diffusion and diffusion/absorption. Above and below middle of the side walls, is untreated from the listening position forward. At the first reflection point, it was fully diffusive but now absorptive - subject to change. Between that and the seating is absorption but with diffusion on top - but also some pure diffusion. On both sides of the side surrounds is diffusion/absorption. On the listener side of the wide is diffusion/absorption. On both side of the rear surrounds is diffusion absorption. The one area they treated that I have not (but subject to change) is the area on the ceiling around the height speakers. They use 3D diffusion panels (similar to but not the same as the RPG Skylines).



> I'm confused... is that the "shaped" signal being sent to the subs or is that the response of the acoustic output of the subs? Why would it be beneficial to have a peak at 50 Hz instead of a rising response below 80 Hz? My concrete floor doesn't provide tactile like your suspended floor does. In my system, I use the Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators for tactile response and I send the transducers an unaltered signal direct from the analog subwoofer output of my Oppo. My subs get a target curve from Audyssey that adds about 9 dB of increase from 80 Hz to 20 Hz, which is similar to the Harman target curve. (The <20 Hz response is all room gain, not anything I'm doing with Audyssey.) Here is the output of my subwoofers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They sound really good, but are you suggesting I implement the curve you posted above? It's not hard to do with Audyssey and the curve editor in the Audyssey app, but I'm not sure why I would like that response better than what I have now?
> 
> Craig


The chart I provided is the target curve for my subs. The LFE response you have would be unlistenable in my room. But was fine with my SubMersives. Based upon what I have heard with the F18's for the last 3 or 4 years (and *much more so* with my DIY Stereo Integrity subs I had before that) is that the efficiency of the driver is much higher below ~40Hz to 50Hz than above. So even a perfectly flat target curve and response sounds "heavy" on the lower end. I have been using a version of what I provided above for the past year or so. This particular curve sounds the best so far. But a friend has SubMersives and uses this target (he provided it to me) and loves it for both music and movies. He has another theater in another home with some far less capable subs and uses the same curve. All about preference. And if I recall, your room is not a fully sealed/ enclosed rectangular space so that might also explain why your response works in your room. I'm not familiar with the Audyssey app you mentioned but give this target a try and see what you think.


----------



## beastaudio

craig john said:


> I had placed a deposit for those speakers and I was anxiously awaiting their finished product when the whole AV123 fiasco/disaster happened. Fortunately for me I got my deposit back just before the implosion, (before Mark "Shifty" Schifter went to jail). I ended up "whole" but quite a few people lost their money on that one. In spite of all that, I was really disappointed that I never got those speakers. I have always been intrigued by the whole line array/line source concept, especially the cylindrical dispersion pattern, the reduced/eliminated interactions with the floor and ceiling, and the decreased propagation loss. I've attached a paper I found back then written by Jim Griffin from 2003, which, at that time, was kind of the seminal paper about line arrays in the DIY world. Watching Ritchie's video, it seems the technology has improved considerably since then.
> 
> I had heard Wisdom Audio systems twice at trade shows and was blown away by their sound. I am really anxious to hear them in your system.
> 
> Craig


You heard mine at Andrew's many years ago I believe. I still have them for my 2 channel and evening TV setup in my Den. they kind of bookend my fireplace and I have zero intention of them going anywhere for quite some time still. Just great workhorse speakers...and the bird's eye maple is gorgeous!


----------



## craig john

beastaudio said:


> You heard mine at Andrew's many years ago I believe. I still have them for my 2 channel and evening TV setup in my Den. they kind of bookend my fireplace and I have zero intention of them going anywhere for quite some time still. Just great workhorse speakers...and the bird's eye maple is gorgeous!


Were these the curved Selah line arrays? I don't remember ever hearing the LS9's at a GTG.

Craig


----------



## beastaudio

craig john said:


> Were these the curved Selah line arrays? I don't remember ever hearing the LS9's at a GTG.
> 
> Craig


Ah, nevermind then, you heard my Danley's then at that g2g. It was the previous one at Rilla's that I had hauled my ls6's up to. Sorry for the confusion...couldn't remember which one of them was the one you attended...


----------



## craig john

beastaudio said:


> Ah, nevermind then, you heard my Danley's then at that g2g. It was the previous one at Rilla's that I had hauled my ls6's up to. Sorry for the confusion...couldn't remember which one of them was the one you attended...


Yup, I heard your Danley's which were spectacular, not line sources, but spectacular!

Craig

PS. Were you in the group that came to my house the next day?


----------



## beastaudio

craig john said:


> Yup, I heard your Danley's which were spectacular, not line sources, but spectacular!
> 
> Craig
> 
> PS. Were you in the group that came to my house the next day?


I was not, and sincerely regret that. Was also the last time I've made it up that way too sadly enough...


----------



## tsai

audioguy said:


> Yet one more example of me saying I'm not going to do something then change my mind a short time (or sometimes a long time) later. I have ordered the Wisdom Atmos speakers (did not get a 90% discount) so every speaker in the room will have the same kind of driver from about 600Hz north. Will I hear any difference? If I play two channel music through them vs the RSLs, I have ZERO doubt I will hear a difference. But when the 9 base layer speakers are playing along with the heights, then who knows. Even though I will be able to initially utilize the new bass layer speakers along with the RSLs and then switch to the Wisdom height speakers, I'm not convinced I will be able to discern differences. But, I am at least hoping "expectation bias" kicks in and I "at least" think I hear the difference. But, done deal anyway!!


Did this comparison between the RSL and the Wisdom overheads ever happen? Based on the delays and desire to get back up and running, I’m guessing it didn’t... I’d have made the same choice in those shoes.


----------



## audioguy

It has not. I’m still working on getting all I can from the new speakers and I have been away from home a lot with more travel to come. But eventually!!!

And I would do it all over again even if sonic differences are minimal. Power handling, bass extension, build quality, etc. But mostly, because there will be no more speaker upgrades and I decided to just do it right - meaning every speaker in the room has identical driver technology for everything over about 500Hz.


----------



## ckgolf

audioguy said:


> If you are able to shape it this way in your room (don't remember if Audyssey has this granularity), I would give it a go. I am tuning the lower part of that curve to get the tactile response in my room to my liking (remember I am on a suspended floor). But for the few demo scenes and movies that I have tired it, I really like it. My friend has dual SubMersives in the rear and dual Seaton one-of-a-kind ported dual 18's up front. The F18s are a bit more efficient south of 50Hz than are the SubMersives so I may tune the bottom half of mine a tad different than he does.
> View attachment 3124980


I recalibrated my sub system last night using this curve centered around 50hz and about 8db hot. It sounds fantastic, much more punch, definition and clarity. I previously had a rising response from 100hz to 20hz at about 15db hot at the bottom. Like you mentioned it used to sound very heavy. I use 4 Stereo Integrity 18’s, one in each corner. Thanks for sharing this!


----------



## audioguy

ckgolf said:


> I recalibrated my sub system last night using this curve centered around 50hz and about 8db hot. It sounds fantastic, much more punch, definition and clarity. I previously had a rising response from 100hz to 20hz at about 15db hot at the bottom. Like you mentioned it used to sound very heavy. I use 4 Stereo Integrity 18’s, one in each corner. Thanks for sharing this!


Glad it worked out for you. I had 4 of the SI-18's as well (HST version) and the efficiency over 45 Hz went down (see plot) so they *always* sounded low end (south of 45Hz) heavy. 

Here are the sensitivity (efficiency) responses from three different subs:
The first one is that of the SI HST 18 D2. Notice the efficiency north of about 45Hz










Next is that of the Funk Audio 18"










And Last is that of the Dayton Audio 18"










There is more to what you hear than just these efficiency curves, but they most certainly does give an indication of the heavier low end in the SI and why that target curve helps.


----------



## audioguy

While I have been gone a bit, I have managed to watch a few more movies since the Wisdom system has been completed. And one of the words that keeps popping up is "immersive". With the two times my wife has been with me while watching, that is the phrase she has uttered both times. The last time my wife commented about *anything* on the audio side of our theater was when we went from 7.x to 7.x.4 - and that was probably 5 or 6 years ago. One of the other things I hear is more detail. If, for example, a shell casing hits the ground after being fired, all of detail of that is so clear and well defined (a result, I assume, of the light weight and speed of the PMDs). And lastly mid and upper bass "impact". Just off the charts. And dialog clarity.

We watched Fellowship of the Rings last night, which we have both seen multiple times. But this viewing was a completely different experience. 

While at the moment, this next observation is 100% subjective, I have also concluded that the sound I am getting from the height speakers (that are now Wisdoms and use the same PMD technology as do all of the rest of the speakers) really is better than the 20 times less expensive predecessor. With the Trinnov processor, it is very easy to select certain speakers to play and the rest are muted. During the scene I was watching, I noticed how clean the dialog was that seemed to be coming from the height speakers, so I enabled just those, replayed that scene, and it really was remarkable. At some point in the future, I still plan to directly compare a 9.x.2 configuration using the Wisdom height speakers and the two RSLs that are still in the room. That still won't be a perfect comparison given the two sets will be in slightly different locations, but will certainly be better than my, at the moment, very subjective thoughts.

I sure can't say these are the best home theater speakers on the planet, but I can say that these are the best home theater speakers I have ever heard, either in my home, a home of someone else or at any conference. That said, I must also say, once you get to where I was *prior* to this upgrade, the incremental cost of *substantive* improvement ("substantive" as defined by the person doing the comparing), is quite high. The Triad speakers I previously had installed are magnificent. BUT, I would do this all again in a heart beat.

I've said this before, but one must hear a properly installed all line source Wisdom theater to appreciate its strengths. If you are on the left half of the US (or right half for that matter), go to Carson City, NV and experience what I am hearing. Or if there is a dealer near you who has an all line source configuration in a well done room, go there. If the LCRs are line source but the surrounds are not, while still very excellent, it is not the same as an all line source room. BUT, while I can't say enough good things about this company, their products and the folks I have interacted with, that they are such an unknown is a shame and that falls on them.


----------



## audioguy

I haven't been home much to to use the theater but have finally gotten around to doing so and listening to gobs of music and a few movies.

While the sound has been amazing, I kept hearing a tiny amount of what I shall call brightness/edge/harshness on almost all (primarily female but some male) vocals, that certainly subtracted from what I was hoping for. It turns out the culprit may be (will know later this week) the Trinnov mic. Upon closer examination, I noticed that every speaker's corrected response had a smidge of frequency elevation centered around 3600Hz. Looking at what the Trinnov displayed as the uncorrected response, it showed a dip centered at that same spot (but that two different external measuring systems did not show!!). A single PEQ on all speakers addressed the issue. I will be able to compare my Trinnov mic to another later this week to see if my assumption is correct. While I can't understand how a mic could get messed up in that very specific way, I have no other idea on what caused this particular issue.

As I've said on more than one occasion, it was listening to music at my client's home that got me to buy these Wisdom speakers. This most recent adjustment got my system to sound virtually identical to his (bass notwithstanding - I'm on a 2nd floor and he is in a basement). Could not be happier. And continue to be amazed that I get to have that quality of sound in my home. Bad news: since there is virtually zero distortion as I increase volume, I have noticed I am listening a higher (and probably not safer) levels.

As truly spectacular as it sounds now, I am anxious to hear what it will sound like when the new Dolby up-mixer is available for the Trinnov. According to @CP850-CLED, he believes it is a far superior up-mixer for 2 channel music than AuroMatic. Listening to large choirs using Auro on these speakers is the closest I have ever heard a home audio system sound like the real deal (but still a hundred billion miles from live). Can't fathom how Dolby can improve on what I am hearing.


----------



## GPM

Interesting! If anything, this is where a dip would be as any boost results in 'edge' due to how keen our hearing is in this region.

Interactive response chart: Interactive Frequency Chart from Independent Recording Network

Interactive hearing chart: Interactive Ear Sensitivity Chart - Independent Recording Network


----------



## audioguy

GPM said:


> Interesting! If anything, this is where a dip would be as any boost results in 'edge' due to how keen our hearing is in this region.
> 
> Interactive response chart: Interactive Frequency Chart from Independent Recording Network
> 
> Interactive hearing chart: Interactive Ear Sensitivity Chart - Independent Recording Network


As it turns out, I am calibrating another system this week (Trinnov and Wisdom) and the same thing has occurred. The good news is that representative of both Trinnov and Wisdom will be here so maybe I can get some answers.


----------



## TMcG

I am IMMENSELY disappointed in the AVS Forum notification system. I'm subscribed to several hundred threads over the past 10 years and I think there is a hiccup of sorts in this latest website update because I haven't received any notifications despite being flagged as such. Same thing with Brolic's thread and I'm sure dozens of others who posted updates in the interim.

You've been VERY busy, I see!!! I always have a big smile when I read your thread and clearly hear you saying "I am completely done" with the theater and any upgrades. And now everything but the screen, chairs and a couple of cable ties has been upgraded. lol I am not making fun - believe me. We all just live in denial until the next shiny thing creates a cascade of upgrades to take advantage of the original upgrade!

I'm going to have to make yet another trek to Georgia to see the latest iteration now that you are "done".


----------



## tigerhonaker

TMcG said:


> I am IMMENSELY disappointed in the AVS Forum notification system. I'm subscribed to several hundred threads over the past 10 years and I think there is a hiccup of sorts in this latest website update because I haven't received any notifications despite being flagged as such. Same thing with Brolic's thread and I'm sure dozens of others who posted updates in the interim.
> 
> You've been VERY busy, I see!!! I always have a big smile when I read your thread and clearly hear you saying "I am completely done" with the theater and any upgrades. And now everything but the screen, chairs and a couple of cable ties has been upgraded. lol I am not making fun - believe me. We all just live in denial until the next shiny thing creates a cascade of upgrades to take advantage of the original upgrade!
> 
> I'm going to have to make yet another trek to Georgia to see the latest iteration now that you are "done".


Hi Tim,

I don't think Chuck will mind me answering you, hopefully.



> * I am IMMENSELY disappointed in the AVS Forum notification system. I'm subscribed to several hundred threads over the past 10 years and I think there is a hiccup of sorts in this latest website update because I haven't received any notifications despite being flagged as such. Same thing with Brolic's thread and I'm sure dozens of others who posted updates in the interim.*


Here's the deal ..........
Same exact situation for me and everyone else when they switched over to the latest software those Prior Thread Notifications were All-Lost.
Basically you have to go back and UN-Subscribe to All the Threads you use to get the notices on.
Then go back and RE-Subscribe to them !!!
And I couldn't in a million years recall all those Threads.

That's the situation buddy,
Terry


----------



## beastaudio

audioguy said:


> As truly spectacular as it sounds now, I am anxious to hear what it will sound like when the new Dolby up-mixer is available for the Trinnov. According to @CP850-CLED, he believes it is a far superior up-mixer for 2 channel music than AuroMatic. Listening to large choirs using Auro on these speakers is the closest I have ever heard a home audio system sound like the real deal (but still a hundred billion miles from live). Can't fathom how Dolby can improve on what I am hearing.


Is this a new upmixer in general or Trinnov will just finally have the Dolby upmixer that most other units already have? I've got it on my Lexicon, and had it on my previous two marantz units as well as the avm60 (not positive on this one tho). If it's the same upmixer algorithm, at least IMO, auromatic is still better. Logic 7 is still my hands down best upmixer award winner...


----------



## GPM

TMcG said:


> another trek to Georgia


Shows how much attention I paid when posting, I'm apparently within easy driving distance!


----------



## ss9001

audioguy said:


> Construction/installation is complete --
> 
> View attachment 3124068
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3124069
> 
> 
> View attachment 3124070
> 
> 
> View attachment 3124072
> 
> Now onto enjoying --- and tweaking, and diddling, and re-calibrating, and enjoying ........


I just discovered this thread, Chuck. And by accident no less!
These photos of your finished Wisdom-ized HT are awesome.


----------



## audioguy

ss9001 said:


> I just discovered this thread, Chuck. And by accident no less!
> These photos of your finished Wisdom-ized HT are awesome.


Thank you sir. It is starting to sound "awesome" as well - but as we addicts enthusiasts know, the search for perfection never, ever ends.


----------



## JonFo

audioguy said:


> Thank you sir. It is starting to sound "awesome" as well - but as we addicts enthusiasts know, the search for perfection never, ever ends.


Congrats on an amazing update.

Maybe we can arrange for a mutual visit, as I have a friend here in Big Canoe that is deploying a Trinnov / Wisdom audio system, and I'm sure you'd enjoy my highly customized MartinLogan ESL 5.4.4 setup. Sometime late summer would work, as my friend is still in the install phase.


----------



## audioguy

We can definitely do that. I believe your friend and his wife came to visit me couple of years ago.


----------



## hometheatergeek

Hello audioguy. I watched youthman's recent YouTube video where you did the calibration for Alex's HT. You did an excellent job describing your process. If you would allow me, I'll provide the link here in your thread. I'm also waiting to hear when you might have a GTG at your place.


----------



## audioguy

hometheatergeek said:


> Hello audioguy. I watched youthman's recent YouTube video where you did the calibration for Alex's HT. You did an excellent job describing your process. If you would allow me, I'll provide the link here in your thread. I'm also waiting to hear when you might have a GTG at your place.


Thanks for the kind words. But I don't plan on doing a GTG. Room's not big enough, and each person get's limited access to the MLP. If you want to come by sometime, let's communicate via PM and we can set something up.


----------



## jamiebosco

Hi audioguy,
May I ask if this is you in this video (around 51min)?
If so, both yours, and his, theaters look amazing, and I bet they sound even better!


----------



## audioguy

jamiebosco said:


> Hi audioguy,
> May I ask if this is you in this video (around 51min)?
> If so, both yours, and his, theaters look amazing, and I bet they sound even better!


It's actually my older, less attractive evil twin 

But yes, that would be me. Until one can hear a room with ALL true line source speakers, it is pretty difficult (maybe impossible) to describe the sound. And thanks for the kind words. It does sound amazing and each time I am in the theater (a lot of which is listening to music), I am so pleased with what I hear. Vocals are sooooo clean, clear, dynamic. And the speed of the drivers makes action movies a real pleasure. His room has mine beat because he has a hush box around his PJ (dead silence) and my very noisy RS4500 does not.


----------



## jamiebosco

I can only imagine!


That's probably my favorite Home Theater tour on YouTube. I learnt a lot. Alex has a great team working on this cinema!


----------



## femi

Hi audioguy, does Alex have a theater build thread around here?

Femi


----------



## audioguy

He does not.. Thete were a few photos during the video


----------



## hemiutut

Hi audioguy
Do you have room acoustics measurements made with Room EQ Wizard for example?

Can you put the .mdat file?

Written with google translator

Greetings


----------



## audioguy

hemiutut said:


> Hi audioguy
> Do you have room acoustics measurements made with Room EQ Wizard for example?
> 
> Can you put the .mdat file?
> 
> Written with google translator
> 
> Greetings


I do not. I use OmniMic.


----------



## hemiutut

audioguy said:


> I do not. I use OmniMic.


Thanks for the clarification.

Can you put a screenshot of the RT (T20, T30, Topt), Waterfall, ETC, etc, etc.

It is to see the acoustics of your room.

Greetings


----------



## audioguy

hemiutut said:


> *Can you put a screenshot of the RT (T20, T30, Topt), Waterfall, ETC, etc, etc.*


Sorry to be a "party pooper", but not any time soon. I will be traveling, and have many other projects/issues that deserve much more attention than taking more room measurements. I spent many, many months getting the room ready and then many iterations and a lot more time calibrating and fine tuning it. And, now, when I'm in our theater, taking yet more measurements comes way, way, way behind listening to music and watching movies.


----------



## hemiutut

audioguy said:


> Sorry to be a "party pooper", but not any time soon. I will be traveling, and have many other projects/issues that deserve much more attention than taking more room measurements. I spent many, many months getting the room ready and then many iterations and a lot more time calibrating and fine tuning it. And, now, when I'm in our theater, taking yet more measurements comes way, way, way behind listening to music and watching movies.


Thanks for the deference in answering. If at any time you can, you will put the measurements to see the acoustics of the room.

Greetings


----------



## audioguy

I had a visitor to my theater yesterday and he posted his comments on the Wisdom thread. If you care to read it, they can be found *HERE*.


----------



## audioguy

Posted this on another thread but no responses so thought I would post here:

I currently use MakeMKV for ripping my movies and Plex on my NAS and Nvidia to play them. The ONLY shortcoming is the inability to have menu access (and the occasional issue with sub titles). Not a big deal in most cases. But I am now looking for three additional capabilities (and they don't need to be in the same software).

(1) I would like to find the best software for re-ripping my concert videos (1:1) to give me *chapter access* as if I were using the disc. I have looked at the many options, all of which claim to be the best, so am looking for some input from those who have actually used software that will do this and your experiences (and any shortcomings that you are aware of). Ideally this would be Mac software but that is not critical as I have a Windows computer and my Macs can run Windows.

(2) I want to be able to *create a physical disc copy* of an existing demo disc I have. I have the ripping drives and the 50GB discs but need the best software to do so.

(3) While I think I know the answer to this one, looking for the *EASIEST WAY* to rip only part of a disc (MKV or other format) for creating demo clips.

Thanks


----------



## BrolicBeast

Hey Chuck,

For #3: MKV Toolnix is what I used for years to create demo scenes. It’s time stamp-based. You enter the start and finish time stamp of your desired scene, and MKV Toolnix will handle the rest. Every demo scene in my Plex demo library were made using that app! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

Thanks. I will give it a go. But can't seem to get any response on the other two - and way too many choice and while a few give a try and buy option, it is only for a partial file. I'm willing the spend whatever it takes to get those two capabilities but I refuse to buy blind.


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> I currently use MakeMKV for ripping my movies and Plex on my NAS and Nvidia to play them.
> 
> (1) I would like to find the best software for re-ripping my concert videos (1:1) to give me *chapter access* as if I were using the disc. I have looked at the many options, all of which claim to be the best, so am looking for some input from those who have actually used software that will do this and your experiences (and any shortcomings that you are aware of). Ideally this would be Mac software but that is not critical as I have a Windows computer and my Macs can run Windows.


IIRC I ripped the Hans Zimmer Prague concert with MKV and used MKVToolnixGUI (on Windows) to add the chapter stops. It's a manual operation to first determine and then type in the time codes for the chapter stops.

I also used Toolnix to re-edit Amadeus to attempt to expunge the Director's Cut scenes. I posted about that elsewhere, and gave some additional details on that process.

If you find a better, paid solution, I'd consider going that route next time.

FYI, I found some useful info on how to add chapters with Toolnix here.


----------



## audioguy

Roger Dressler said:


> IIRC I ripped the Hans Zimmer Prague concert with MKV and used MKVToolnixGUI (on Windows) to add the chapter stops. It's a manual operation to first determine and then type in the time codes for the chapter stops.
> 
> I also used Toolnix to re-edit Amadeus to attempt to expunge the Director's Cut scenes. I posted about that elsewhere, and gave some additional details on that process.
> 
> If you find a better, paid solution, I'd consider going that route next time.


I've put out a few feelers and if I get any response that seems to make sense, I will post so here.

Thanks. If I only had a few to do, I might give your recommendation a try. But I've got maybe 50 or 60 and hoping to find something more automatic. Lots say they can but you don't get a chance to try before you buy.

And how are you doing? Don't see you around here as much, at least not on the threads I visit.


----------



## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> And how are you doing? Don't see you around here as much, at least not on the threads I visit.


So kind of you to ask. All good here. The last few months have been occupied with selling the house -- so we're in a home theater hiatus until the next home is completed in 5-6 months. 

It should be Deadwood III sometime next year.


----------



## Danonano

audioguy said:


> (1) I would like to find the best software for re-ripping my concert videos (1:1) to give me *chapter access* as if I were using the disc. I have looked at the many options, all of which claim to be the best, so am looking for some input from those who have actually used software that will do this and your experiences (and any shortcomings that you are aware of). Ideally this would be Mac software but that is not critical as I have a Windows computer and my Macs can run Windows.




The only option that I've discovered for this is to use JRiver on PC for playback. I use MakeMKV and use the option to make a full disc backup, and then when you select the movie in JRiver after importing it, it will give you the option to just play the largest file or to play the full disc with menus. It works most of the time, depending on the disc.

I'm in the midst of a move and it's been a few months since I burned a disc, so my memory might be a bit fuzzy.

edit: I only have experience with JRiver for PC. I haven't used JRiver for Mac.


----------



## audioguy

I decided to play part of the Michael Jackson BluRay Disc, "This Is It". Forgetting about his "weirdness" or other character flaws, the guy was a musical genius, even if you don't happen to like his music And some of the cuts off this disc are much fun to watch/listen to. The *only* flaw of the Wisdom speakers was on display - and that is you can not play them too loud. It was easily at or over live concert volume levels and never a hint of harshness or fatigue. But so, so much fun to listen to. So immersive. So Dynamic; So clean!! And so wonderfully loud. It was yet another example of thinking it was great when listening on my previous all Triad system until you hear it on something better. Of course, the Trinnov via DTS:X Neural-X making use of all of the speakers sure didn't hurt the experience.

Then, I followed that up with the Live Aid scene from the movie Bohemian Rhapsody (Atmos) - also played at live concert volume levels. Again, no harshness or fatigue. Just off the charts fun, fun, fun !!!

I love these speakers.

And FWIW, I played all of this music using my music preset and not the movie preset as the more natural music settings work much better than the slightly elevated bass setting in my movie preset.


----------



## audioguy

From the guy who doesn't do any more upgrades (except when he does), I have ordered the new JVC NZ9 projector to replace my current JVC RS4500. The form factor is a lot smaller so the hush box requirement should be a lot more manageable. So if any one is interested in my 4500 (hopefully available by the end of October), PM me.

And just so you know the addiction fascination continues, I have also ordered a Kaleidescape Strato-C player and the just announced Kaleidescape Strato 12TB Terra Server. That should take care of it for this week!!

I can say I will NOT be doing any more upgrades --------this week------ unless I do.


----------



## COACH2369

I was just going to email you and ask if you had plans to upgrade to the new JVC projector.
I'm looking at the NZ8 as a possible upgrade in 2022 once all the "dust" settles on our house project.


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> I was just going to email you and ask if you had plans to upgrade to the new JVC projector.
> I'm looking at the NZ8 as a possible upgrade in 2022 once all the "dust" settles on our house project.


As noted above, it was too perfect to refuse. Same ~ability as my RS4500 but smaller form factor. Sell you my 4500 for less than the MSRP of the NZ8 with 20% more lig PM mht output (3000 lumens vs 2500 lumens. PM me if interested.


----------



## bruecksteve

Hey Chuck! Steve Brueck here! I was on the phone yesterday with Adam Pelz and and Shawn Byrne about the Wisdom speakers that we would be using in my new room. They are coming up with the final selections soon, so I can't wait to see what they recommend. Adam did mention the ISC7A for the ceiling, but he was also talking about the Sage Cinema Point 2 V2's.


----------



## audioguy

bruecksteve said:


> Hey Chuck! Steve Brueck here! I was on the phone yesterday with Adam Pelz and and Shawn Byrne about the Wisdom speakers that we would be using in my new room. They are coming up with the final selections soon, so I can't wait to see what they recommend. Adam did mention the ISC7A for the ceiling, but he was also talking about the Sage Cinema Point 2 V2's.


Steve: I don't know if you are just providing me information or looking for my opinion. Happy to offer my opinion though since Adam and Shawn are designing your room, they are in a better position to recommend the best solution.

That said, both great performers, with very similar specs. The ISC7A (which I chose and would chose again and have recommended to all other Wisdom Audio prospects) is an in-ceiling speaker, with and angled and aim-able PMD (using Optional Laser alignment [IC-LAT] tool). It also comes with a dispersion lens to facilitate better seat-to-seat performance. The P2V2 it is an ON ceiling (and physically larger) speaker with a rotatable PMD (not aim-able) that would be hung on your ceiling but if you want it invisible, could be put behind cloth. And it cost more than the ICS7A. Since I don't know anything about your room, I'm not sure under what condition they would want to recommend the P2V2. 

Here are two of the 4 P2V2's hung in one of my client's rooms:










What is the estimated date your room will be ready?


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> The P2V2 it is an ON ceiling (and physically larger) speaker with a rotatable PMD (not aim-able) that would be hung on your ceiling but if you want it invisible, could be put behind cloth.


There is an InWall version of the P2v2, and the PMD is able to be both rotated 90° and angled 22.5°.


----------



## audioguy

appelz said:


> There is an InWall version of the P2v2, and the PMD is able to be both rotated 90° and angled 22.5°.


Thanks. I forgot about the 22.5° but did not know about the in-ceiling version. So under what conditions would you recommend the P2V2 over the ICS7a (or the other way around)?


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> From the guy who doesn't do any more upgrades (except when he does), I have ordered the new JVC NZ9 projector to replace my current JVC RS4500. The form factor is a lot smaller so the hush box requirement should be a lot more manageable. So if any one is interested in my 4500 (hopefully available by the end of October), PM me.
> 
> And just so you know the addiction fascination continues, I have also ordered a Kaleidescape Strato-C player and the just announced Kaleidescape Strato 12TB Terra Server. That should take care of it for this week!!
> 
> I can say I will NOT be doing any more upgrades --------this week------ unless I do.


AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! BIG NEWS!!!! Great purchases!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! BIG NEWS!!!! Great purchases!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


The Kaleidescape equipment is up and running. Currently have about 50 movies loaded, but have yet to sift through the 200 I have in my account from when I was last a customer, the vast majority of which I had subsequently purchased in shiny disc and ripped to my NAS.

I have discovered the 2nd major downside to becoming a Kaleidescape client. The first is the obscene cost of the hardware, primarily the grossly over priced Terra Servers. The 2nd, but sneakiest, is the almost instant accessibility to the 13,000 movies Kaleidescape has in their store. It is way too easy to find some title you have not seen, watch the Trailer and download in ~10 minutes (sometimes longer BUT sometimes shorter). It is like having your very own DVD/BluRay/4K version of Redbox - but with 13,000 choices. I originally saw this as a "feature" which I used to justify my re-investment. Little did I thoroughly think through THAT "feature".


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> The Kaleidescape equipment is up and running. Currently have about 50 movies loaded, but have yet to sift through the 200 I have in my account from when I was last a customer, the vast majority of which I had subsequently purchased in shiny disc and ripped to my NAS.
> 
> I have discovered the 2nd major downside to becoming a Kaleidescape client. The first is the obscene cost of the hardware, primarily the grossly over priced Terra Servers. The 2nd, but sneakiest, is the almost instant accessibility to the 13,000 movies Kaleidescape has in their store. It is way too easy to find some title you have not seen, watch the Trailer and download in ~10 minutes (sometimes longer BUT sometimes shorter). It is like having your very own DVD/BluRay/4K version of Redbox - but with 13,000 choices. I originally saw this as a "feature" which I used to justify my re-investment. Little did I thoroughly think through THAT "feature".


Lol, if you think that's bad, just wait until a sale comes around and you get those titles for 9.99-14.99! Lolol... You'll need a new Terra soon. I guarantee it. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> You'll need a new Terra soon. I guarantee it.


I really don't think so. 

For the same reason it is so easy to decide to watch and then actually watch a movie from the store (~10 minutes downloads), I will only keep those movies I have a high percentage chance of re-watching any time soon on my Terra - and that is nowhere near the approximate 200 HDR movies I can store. If I own it and it is not on my Terra, while we are getting set in the theater, etc, I can have the movie running in my home in ~10 minutes. And that is the reason I chose to buy the separate Terra vs the combined Strato/Server. Sure, 10 minutes is 10 minutes longer than it would be if I have it stored locally, but pretty sure I can live with that. 

Since you are now a Trinnov owner, go to the K store and download this (see below) FREE movie/demo. Prior to playing it, you might want to evaluate the crossover you are using on your RSL heights. I would suggest - actually highly recommend (even if you don't play this thing) to raise it to AT LEAST 100hz - or even higher. Having now owned a high performance and high power handling height speaker, I get the reason to pay more. 

When listening to this demo, use the Trinnov Processor Tab and select "Solo" for your all of your height speakers. The height speaker SPL is higher than any other clip I have used (I listen to this clip VERY loud).


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Lol, if you think that's bad, just wait until a sale comes around


Does K send out emails to K owners to notify them of the sale?


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Does K send out emails to K owners to notify them of the sale?


For sure!! The sales convert different categories and are often themed (i.e. Oscar season will see all Oscar nominees and winners on sale)

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> I really don't think so.
> 
> For the same reason it is so easy to decide to watch and then actually watch a movie from the store (~10 minutes downloads), I will only keep those movies I have a high percentage chance of re-watching any time soon on my Terra - and that is nowhere near the approximate 200 HDR movies I can store. If I own it and it is not on my Terra, while we are getting set in the theater, etc, I can have the movie running in my home in ~10 minutes. And that is the reason I chose to buy the separate Terra vs the combined Strato/Server. Sure, 10 minutes is 10 minutes longer than it would be if I have it stored locally, but pretty sure I can live with that.
> 
> Since you are now a Trinnov owner, go to the K store and download this (see below) FREE movie/demo. Prior to playing it, you might want to evaluate the crossover you are using on your RSL heights. I would suggest - actually highly recommend (even if you don't play this thing) to raise it to AT LEAST 100hz - or even higher. Having now owned a high performance and high power handling height speaker, I get the reason to pay more.
> 
> When listening to this demo, use the Trinnov Processor Tab and select "Solo" for your all of your height speakers. The height speaker SPL is higher than any other clip I have used (I listen to this clip VERY loud).
> 
> View attachment 3186799


Ha….oh I totally get that. I haven’t had my RSL height speakers struggle until playing that demo (I downloaded both Trinnov demos available on the Kaleidescape) but I’m going to be gutting the height speakers soon and will be replacing them with eight Triad Silver LCRs angled at the listening area, and each silver will have its own 10” in-ceiling subwoofer next to it (8 speakers, 8 subs in/on the ceiling), making all ceiling speakers full range units in the Trinnov so I won’t be crossing the Atmos channels over at anything over 40Hz once I finish that. I’ll be doing the same to my surrounds as well. It’s going to be ROCKING! 

I’M GOING TO PM YOU ABOUT YOUR HEIGHT SPEAKERS….I know someone looking for a ribbon style height speaker.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Ha….oh I totally get that. I haven’t had my RSL height speakers struggle until playing that demo (I downloaded both Trinnov demos available on the Kaleidescape) but I’m going to be gutting the height speakers soon and will be replacing them with eight Triad Silver LCRs angled at the listening area, *and each silver will have its own 10” in-ceiling subwoofer next to it (8 speakers, 8 subs in/on the ceiling*), making all ceiling speakers full range units in the Trinnov so I won’t be crossing the Atmos channels over at anything over 40Hz once I finish that. I’ll be doing the same to my surrounds as well. It’s going to be ROCKING!
> 
> I’M GOING TO PM YOU ABOUT YOUR HEIGHT SPEAKERS….I know someone looking for a ribbon style height speaker.


Wow! That's impressive. So let me get this straight. You will have 11 bed channels, two (sort of) subs and 8 heights speakers with 8 subs for a total of 29 speakers. Get that setup and calibrated properly, and it should be amazing. How do you have time to do your day job along with your NEW job?


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Wow! That's impressive. So let me get this straight. You will have 11 bed channels, two (sort of) subs and 8 heights speakers with 8 subs for a total of 29 speakers. Get that setup and calibrated properly, and it should be amazing. How do you have time to do your day job along with your NEW job?


Forgot to mention: the wides and two pairs of side surround speakers will have their own 10" subs as well and will be run full range. So eight surround channels with six subs (rear surrounds won't be full range as they flank the rear cluster of four DS18-12 subs from Seaton), then eight height channels with eight subs, and then LCR with the four subs on front wall (one channel) and four subs on rear wall (one channel). So that's a total of 35 channels...only possible because of the extra four channels made available via this month's "+4" software update. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

How are you going to hide the surround/wide subs?


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> How are you going to hide the surround/wide subs?


They’re going to be Triad’s 6” deep subs that match the depth and width of the Gold LCRs which are my wides and surrounds. My fabric panels have 7.5” inches total space behind them, so I’ll just add them to the structures that I’ve build to hold the Gold LCRs above them. 

BTW—question for your heights (I was going to PM you, but realized this is good info for anyone to see). You’ve had your new Wisdom setup for a few months now….I know someone who has Legacy Audio speakers in his theater all around. He asked if I had recommendations for in-ceilings or on-ceilings that could go loud and maintain the “airiness of the air motion tweeter” for his upmixed multi-channel music listening. For some complicated ceiling construction reasons, the Legacy Stratos won’t work…..yours look like some BOSS in-ceilings. 1) How did they compare to the RSLs you used to use (I ask because he’s considering them as well), and what is their sonic signature sound like? Is it a standard ribbon tech? or folded air motion? Something else?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> They’re going to be Triad’s 6” deep subs that match the depth and width of the Gold LCRs which are my wides and surrounds. My fabric panels have 7.5” inches total space behind them, so I’ll just add them to the structures that I’ve build to hold the Gold LCRs above them.
> 
> BTW—question for your heights (I was going to PM you, but realized this is good info for anyone to see). You’ve had your new Wisdom setup for a few months now….I know someone who has Legacy Audio speakers in his theater all around. He asked if I had recommendations for in-ceilings or on-ceilings that could go loud and maintain the “airiness of the air motion tweeter” for his upmixed multi-channel music listening. For some complicated ceiling construction reasons, the Legacy Stratos won’t work…..yours look like some BOSS in-ceilings. 1) How did they compare to the RSLs you used to use (I ask because he’s considering them as well), and what is their sonic signature sound like? Is it a standard ribbon tech? or folded air motion? Something else?


When I first went to the Wisdom ceiling speakers, it was based upon just having matching mid/tweeters in all of my speakers - just in case it might make a difference. Turns out, it does, at least at the listening levels I use. And the client who also changed from another brand of ceiling speakers to Wisdoms will tell you the same thing. The extension of my current height speakers (actually go to 40Hz) is far superior to the RSLs ( though I cross them over at 80Hz) vs crossing over my RSLs at 120Hz.

The "sonic signature" is about as neutral as any speaker can be. Send *THIS* link to your contact as it fully explains the PMD technology. And, unlike most other speakers, the Wisdom ICS7a uses the PMDs for *a full 5 octaves*, has an aim-able PMD and there is an available magnetically attachable laser aimer that will allow you to get the PMD aimed EXACTLY at the MLP. Furthermore, a dispersion lens is included to optimize seat to seat consistency. NOT CHEAP ($2650 each MSRP), but a true first class work horse with a very robust woofer and, of course, the PMD mid/tweeter. FWIW, I have a preset set up where my front heights are used as the L&R. Blows everyone away - including the Sale Manager from Wisdom who came to my home a few months ago.

I will send you an email for further info.


----------



## notjoeking

I am about to pull the trigger on L8i's for rears and surrounds to hopefully come as close as I can to match my front L and R , which for now are my still working amazingly well Apogee Divas. But I wanted to check in with you to see if you are still happy with your ICS7's ? I'm conflicted over using angled in ceiling speakers which generally results in not so hot off axis response , reflections and reduced spl. However , it does seem like Wisdom worked some magic with the ICS7. I was thinking Sage Cinema Point 2's so I can get a precise angle and direct the full sound spectrum to the MLP. Not as aesthetically pleasing to be sure but closer to the ideal for Atmos and Auro 3D purposes. I'm sure you considered something like this as well and would love to know your thoughts when you have a moment .


----------



## audioguy

You don't need the Point 2s. 

The ICS7a is aim-able and for about $70 MSRP, there is a laser pointer that attaches (magnetically) to the ICS7a to allow you to aim it EXACTLY at the MLP. And the PMD is appropriately angled. So while the laser pointer is attached, you rotate the ISC7a in the ceiling until the laser points directly to where you want it - and then you tighten the screws so it will not move. So since it is magnetically attached, you just buy one of them. Furthermore, there is an included dispersion lens that goes over the PMD to further improve seat-to-seat linearity. IMHO, this is a MUCH better solution than the P2V2 and a whole lot less cosmetically intruding. 

And not sure how the L8i's will work with your Apogee Diva's. I had Diva's once upon a time in the mid 80's when they first came out - and loved them. Not sure how well they will work in a HT environment. Took LOTS of power and didn't like most amps available at the time. In fact, only Krell and Rowland amps could survive the low impedance. (I blew some other amp I tried!!).

Take care.


----------



## notjoeking

audioguy said:


> You don't need the Point 2s.
> 
> The ICS7a is aim-able and for about $70 MSRP, there is a laser pointer that attaches (magnetically) to the ICS7a to allow you to aim it EXACTLY at the MLP. And the PMD is appropriately angled. So while the laser pointer is attached, you rotate the ISC7a in the ceiling until the laser points directly to where you want it - and then you tighten the screws so it will not move. So since it is magnetically attached, you just buy one of them. Furthermore, there is an included dispersion lens that goes over the PMD to further improve seat-to-seat linearity. IMHO, this is a MUCH better solution than the P2V2 and a whole lot less cosmetically intruding.
> 
> And not sure how the L8i's will work with your Apogee Diva's. I had Diva's once upon a time in the mid 80's when they first came out - and loved them. Not sure how well they will work in a HT environment. Took LOTS of power and didn't like most amps available at the time. In fact, only Krell and Rowland amps could survive the low impedance. (I blew some other amp I tried!!).
> 
> Take care.


Thanks for your thoughts. Much appreciated. Guess I will try the ICS7's and avoid the cosmetic intrusion. So far, the Divas do amazingly well in my room so I'm curious to see how they get along with the Wisdom drivers . There is really not much else out there for base and height channels when trying to match the Diva's. Wisdom's mid crossover point is not far off the Divas and I am fan of ribbon and planar drivers with low cross over points. Wisdom and Apogee share an uncle I think because George Short , a gifted designer/engineer left his mark on Apogee and Wisdom. ( Side note, yes some Apogees, especially the Scintilla at 1 ohm , were beasts to drive. Divas are 4 ohms and still are amp fussy. But, I got super lucky and found 4 mono tube amps almost no one has heard of with massive power supplies that annihilated the Krell and Rowland amps that I tried. Been living happily ever after with those Ray ,who?, Lumley's. ) But planning for the future, if the Divas die, in go the Wisdoms for front left and right, I think very likely, but maybe not til after I audition the Soundlabs. Cheers !


----------



## audioguy

Updates:

Update 1: Apparently I sold my JVC RS4500 too soon. No clue when the replacement RS4100 will show up and can't get any delivery dates on short term replacements. Not fun being without a projector.

Update 2: I received the borrowed Kaleidescape Alto so that I can categorize all of my movies (that are currently loaded onto my NAS) so then I will be able to see my entire library from a single source (Kaleidescape) and I will know if the movie is actually on the Kaleidescape or on my NAS. The bad news: Kaleidescape has these really low offers to convert from BR to 4K/HDR and it is tempting to re-buy them so that more of the movies I may want to re-watch will be on the Kaleidescape.


----------



## audioguy

Picking up my JVC RS4100/NZ9 tomorrow from my dealer and I should have my new mounting brackets on Tuesday. Next up is to get it installed and calibrated - and see how loud it is on medium and high laser. Can not wait. I have bunches of new movies to watch (and rewatch a bunch more).


----------



## audioguy

I failed to mention this: That I am getting this now is "literally" a gift from a client. He had one on order as well, knew I was without a projector and told the dealer I could take his and he would take mine (which should be here in maybe ~2 or 3 weeks). He still has a great projector (RS3000). If that is not an example that there is still some goodness and kindness in our world, I don't know what is. A Merry Christmas to him.


----------



## gdfein

Great to hear. Looking forward to your impressions. Mine is on order. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

gdfein said:


> Great to hear. Looking forward to your impressions. Mine is on order.


Thanks. I'm primarily looking for lower fan noise, but, at least according to Kris Deering, I will be getting an improved image as well - and a smaller form factor to build a hush box in case it is still too loud.


----------



## audioguy

Some first impressions after maybe 30 minutes of use of the JVC NZ9:

I don't have the mounting kit/bracket so I set the NZ9 on a table just behind the MLP, no anamorphic lens, no Lumagen. Used the built-in HDR tool by telling it the screen diagonal, gain and aspect ratio; did a quick focus and connected my AppleTV. 

Clarity of the image is superior to my 4500 - by a lot
8K upsampling works - and is very easy to see the benefit
The built in HDR tone mapping is not a Lumagen but for someone who doesn't have a Lumagen, it is more than acceptable
The blacks appear to be better than my 4500
The noise level is most certainly less than the 4500. With the exhaust vents about 15" from my ears, high laser was less noisy than mid laser on the 4500.

For those of you who are upgrading from a 4500, you will be glad you made the decision. For those of you who have a 4500 but chose not to do the upgrade, don't go see a demo of this projector. The improvements are not subtle. 

The out-of-the-box image is REALLY excellent, and I will have no issue dealing with it until I get it calibrated. I'm sure the addition of the Panamorph, Lumagen and a full calibration will make it even better. 

The frosting on the cake: My wife, who almost never notices the improvements my "upgrades" provide was AMAZED.


----------



## audioguy

Merry Christmas everyone - and remember the reason for the season!!


----------



## audioguy

I don't have a date yet for the calibration of my Z9, but I did get some help from Jim Peterson (Lumagen). So HDR tone mapping is activated and a few other goodies. I could live with the image I currently have for a very long time. The image quality of some of my regular Blu Rays is simply stunning, and all images seem to be an improvement over my RS4500 (better blacks). AND, most importantly, and at least on mid laser, I won't need a hush box, but MAY need one on high laser. 

Happy Camper.

And Happy New Year !!!


----------



## Surge2018

audioguy said:


> The *only* flaw of the Wisdom speakers was on display - and that is you can not play them too loud. It was easily at or over live concert volume levels and never a hint of harshness or fatigue.


I’m leaning heavily to a Wisdom system for a 2nd home. Can you elaborate on what you mean here? You can’t play them too loud, but they were ‘easily at or over live concert volume levels’… if so, why is that not loud enough? I don’t get it.

For the 2nd home, music reproduction will be paramount, as I watch movies and listen to music about equally. Most “home theater“ speakers cannot reproduce music accurately, and movie soundtracks are far less demanding than music (with more compression, etc.). Vocals and explosions are one thing, but you need a lot more to reproduce an orchestra, for example.


----------



## audioguy

Surge2018 said:


> I’m leaning heavily to a Wisdom system for a 2nd home. Can you elaborate on what you mean here? You can’t play them too loud, but they were ‘easily at or over live concert volume levels’… if so, why is that not loud enough? I don’t get it.
> 
> My home room has custom designed 4 way field coil horns which cannot be touched for most types of music. I would put them against any system costing under $1m.
> 
> Anyway, for the 2nd home, music reproduction will also be paramount, as I watch movies and listen to music about equally. Most “home theater“ speakers cannot reproduce music accurately, and movie soundtracks are far less demanding than music (with more compression, etc.). Vocals and explosions are one thing, but you need a lot more to reproduce an orchestra, for example.
> 
> Can you also share your Wisdom speaker models - I think you must have posted it somewhere, but I don’t see it.
> Thanks!


What I meant by "you can't play them too loud" is that regardless of how loud you play them (at least up to and maybe just past reference), no distortion. They just stay clean, dynamic, but loud.

I've heard some incredible horn systems in my life, and when done well, in a great room, they represent an amazing way to enjoy music. Certainly some of the best I have ever heard, and most certainly off the charts for vocals. The line source Wisdoms don't sound the same way, but there is, for lack of a better term, a "liquidity" or "organic" (I really don't like that word) feel/sound to them that simply must be experienced. One of my Wisdom clients has owned ALL KINDS of super mega expensive two channel systems, all of which I have heard in other venues, and he will tell you the same thing I will tell you, and that is none compare to the sound/feel/immersiveness of an all Wisdom line source speaker system. I have a client (who has now become a friend) whose two channel system consists of an amazing room, driving a pair of $65,000 Magico speakers with Spectral electronics, etc. When he came by to listen, the only thing he could say was "My system won't do that", after listening to a few seconds of Diana Krall.

Since I have placed my L&R behind my screen, I did give up the "depth" of image "thingie" that a good two channel system can provide, but by playing 2 channel music up-converted through AuroMatic (I use a Trinnov) , the sense of space and being immersed in the music, far outweighs what I gave up. Should you choose to place the L&R in-room, then you give up nothing and gain lots.

As for their ability to reproduce movie soundtracks well, they do. Better than any system I have ever heard. And while movie soundtracks might have compression, things like gun shots, explosions, etc demand a speaker with incredible slam and very responsive drivers. *HERE* is an article from Wisdom on their PMD technology. I highly recommend you check it out. *HERE* is a link to a post in the Wisdom Audio Thread by Andrew DeCristofaro. He is an Oscar Nominated Supervising Sound Editor for feature films, and did the sound for the movie "Unbroken" - amongst others. His response might assist in your evaluation of this option for both music and movies. *HERE* are my thoughts when I first heard these playing music. And *HERE* is a link to another post that have some videos that might be helpful.

I don't know where you live, but I recommend you try and find a place to demo an all Wisdom Line Source System playing music. If you are on the West Coast, then Carson City might work. If you are on the East coast, you are invited here to listen, so send me a PM. Two caveats: (1) finding a demo where ALL of the speakers are line source will be a bit difficult and (2) finding one that has properly set up AuroMatic will also be problematic.

My LCRs are *Wisdom Sage Line 2's*. My surrounds are *Wisdom L8i's* and my 3D Atmos/Auro/DTS:X speakers are *Wisdom ICS7a*'s - and very importantly, all driven by a Trinnov processor.


----------



## hemiutut

audioguy said:


> Go *HERE* if you have any interest in seeing the how and why I got to this point from an all Triad speaker system (or not).
> 
> *Current Equipment List:
> 
> VIDEO EQUIPMENT*: *JVC Z9/RS 4100 Laser Projector*; *Panamorph Paladin Lens; Lumagen**RadiancePro; Seymour Acoustically Transparent 2:35 120 x 51 inch screen *(~1.0 Gain - XD Material);
> 
> *SPEAKERS:* Room is setup in a 9.2.4 configuration. LCRs: *Wisdom Audio Sage Line 2*; Surrounds and Wides: (6) *Wisdom Audio L8i*; SUBS: 8 *Seaton F18 subs* (2 Masters and 6 Slaves driven by 4000 watt amp in each Master -- 2 in each of the front two corners) and (4) Seaton F18's located along the rear wall; ; 3D Audio ceiling speakers: (4) *Wisdom Audio Sage ICS7a*
> 
> *ELECTRONICS:* *Trinnov Altitude 32-24* Surround Processor; *Pure Power APS 2000* Power Conditioner; (3) A*TI - AT54XNC Amplifiers* - 1 Six Channel, 1 Seven Channel and 1 Eight Channel
> 
> *SOURCES:* *Synology NAS DS1817+* (32TB/~22TB Usable); *Nvidia Shield* for viewing ripped movies via Plex; YouTube TV app, Netflix, Amazon; *Kaleidescape Strato-C Movie Player* & *12TB Terra Movie Server*; *Apple TV 4K* = access to Apple TV+, Hulu, Disney+, Apple Spatial Music; *Oppo 203* 4K Blu Ray Player; *SGC (Small Green Computer) sonicTransporter i5 CDR *for running Roon Core for music playback (ripped files and Qobuz) and collection management.
> 
> *ACOUSTIC TREATMENT:* Room design by *GIK*. GIK *q7D diffusors* (2 per side - between Wides and Side Surrounds) - Covered by acoustically transparent cloth; 4" Thick Custom Bass Traps next to Wides and Side Surrounds covered by *Arithmetic Diffuse HIGH Diffusors*; First side wall Reflection Points - all absorption; rear side wall*s: GIK Monster Bass Traps with Scatte*r Plates (3 per side); Rear wall: (3) GIK q7D's with (2) *GIK Monster Bass Traps* with *Scatter Plates*; Left rear corner: *GIK Soffit Traps**;* Front corners: Custom corner traps; Soffit: DIY soffits traps; Ceiling Cloud: *GIK 244 Bass Traps*
> 
> *MISCELLANEOUS:* *Araknis* Ethernet Switch; *Control 4* System Controller; Berkline Seating
> 
> Construction/installation is complete --
> 
> View attachment 3124068
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3124069
> 
> 
> View attachment 3124070
> 
> 
> View attachment 3124072
> 
> Now onto enjoying --- and tweaking, and diddling, and re-calibrating, and enjoying ........


Congratulations on the room-equipment
My question is about the acoustic treatment.
Do you have a thread where I can see the measurements ?
I'm just curious to see the acoustics of the room.
in the TR (Topt, T20, T30, Waterfall, Impulse, etc., etc.).

Written with translator

Greetings


----------



## audioguy

hemiutut said:


> Congratulations on the room-equipment
> My question is about the acoustic treatment.
> Do you have a thread where I can see the measurements ?
> I'm just curious to see the acoustics of the room.
> in the TR (Topt, T20, T30, Waterfall, Impulse, etc., etc.).
> 
> Written with translator
> 
> Greetings


Sorry that I can't help. I have never posted anything anywhere about the measurements in my room (other than a few frequency response curves).


----------



## richjones1974

A truly incredible room AudioGuy


----------



## audioguy

Thank you. Very kind of you. I chose to focus the vast majority of my efforts and $$ into maximizing both the audio and the video performance over things that I would label "lights on" room cosmetics - since the lights are off the vast majority of the time I am in the theater. We get lots of enjoyment out of our theater - as much or more for music than movies!!


----------



## audioguy

As noted above, I've spent 99.5% of my time, energy and money on trying to get the best audio and video performance possible in my room. "Cosmetics" has come in a very distant 3rd place. But I saw a room that belongs to David Wong where he had added strip lighting on his soffits as accent lights. And the cost of the lights (and tracks in which to put them) was very inexpensive). He was kind enough to send me what he used so I have done the same thing. The top row of "lights" are just a ceiling reflection of the actual light strip on the soffit. And the lights are nowhere near as bright as the photo (from my iPhone) would suggest. Of course lots of color options and my wife prefers lights that look more white (but photograph as blue).


----------



## ambesolman

audioguy said:


> As noted above, I've spent 99.5% of my time, energy and money on trying to get the best audio and video performance possible in my room. "Cosmetics" has come in a very distant 3rd place. But I saw a room that belongs to David Wong where he had added strip lighting on his soffits as accent lights. And the cost of the lights (and tracks in which to put them) was very inexpensive). He was kind enough to send me what he used so I have done the same thing. The top row of "lights" are just a ceiling reflection of the actual light strip on the soffit. And the lights are nowhere near as bright as the photo (from my iPhone) would suggest. Of course lots of color options and my wife prefers lights that look more white (but photograph as blue).
> View attachment 3252844


If that little pillow says what I think it does, how can we both be king of the remote?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?


----------



## audioguy

You must have the same pillow! How could you even read it?


----------



## ambesolman

audioguy said:


> You must have the same pillow! How could you even read it?


The real king wouldn't need to


----------



## audioguy

Prior to making the change to an all Wisdom system, I was running a 9.x.6 configuration (all Triads) but chose to initially implement a 9.x.4 configuration using Wisdom speakers. I decided to go back to 9.x.6, not because I will hear any difference. but because I have two nice perfectly sized holes in the ceiling (currently with RSL speakers in them) so decided to finish out the project. In other words - because I wanted to!!


----------



## craig john

It'll be interesting to see if you do, in fact, hear a difference going from 4 to 6 "tops". There are some folks who swear that Top Middles are almost required for the best Atmos effect, so let us know!

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> It'll be interesting to see if you do, in fact, hear a difference going from 4 to 6 "tops". There are some folks who swear that Top Middles are almost required for the best Atmos effect, so let us know!
> 
> Craig


I had 6 "tops" when I was using my RSL/Triad speakers and "thought" (expectation bias?) that it did improve things, more so, than even my wides. I can set up two different presets, one with all 6 and the other with just 4, and instantly compare. I will have my wife do the switching so it can be done "blind".


----------



## audioguy

*MSO (Multi-Sub Optimizer):*
I decided to optimize (just for practice) the 3 seats in front and two more as if sitting at the bar. While the room has 8 subs in it, they way they are positioned, there are "only" two.

Here are the measured results (LFE only) after implementing the filters and delays as computed by MSO for each of those 5 seating positions. This is telling MSO to use 6 PEQs per sub set. I get a smidge better looking graph if I do the same thing using 8 PEQs but not sure it will sound any better!!

All I can say is “amazing" and "thank you Andy" for developing this incredible tool. It will get a lot use shortly as I have a number of large theaters to calibrate with 3 rows and lots of seats per row. 












Chuck


----------



## craig john

Hi Chuck,

Can you reset the Y-Axis, (SPL) to 50 to 100 dB? I think that would allow us to see more detail. Thanks!

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Hi Chuck,
> Can you reset the Y-Axis, (SPL) to 50 to 100 dB? I think that would allow us to see more detail. Thanks!
> Craig


Here you go.









And here are the MSO performance metrics. The metrics (and graph) when using 8 PEQs instead of 6 are slightly better but I'm not convinced audibly better.








And here are the "predictions" as provided by MSO. Scale is not the same as I was unable to get the MSO scale to match that from REW.
As you can see, the actual measured results above align quite well with the predicted results. If you are only dealing with a single row, there are other ways (may or may not be as accurate) to try to deal with seat-to-seat consistency. But I have two upcoming rooms to calibrate, each with 3 rows and 5 seats each. Without something like MSO, there is no way to get this level of seat to seat consistency. The Trinnov has some tools to assist and it does quite well, but it won't do this.


----------



## craig john

Thanks! Looks GREAT!


----------



## audioguy

And much to my surprise, by walking thru the tutorial and video on how to use MSO (and some help from "@fattire"), it is not THAT complicated. My biggest issue was that I had not used REW in more than 10 years and never on a Mac. I finally figured it out (with more videos and more help) and I have now given up OmniMic (for the most part). There will occasions when the combined length of the HDMI cable and USB extension cable may not work perfectly, in which case, I will use OmniMic. In fact I have a brand new, never used OmniMic system that I am going to sell if you know anyone who is interested. I paid $319 with shipping and taxes and will sell for $250 shipped. Dayton Audio charges about $23.00 for the DVD that is used and I will include it as well.


----------



## fattire

audioguy said:


> And much to my surprise, by walking thru the tutorial and video on how to use MSO (and some help from "@fattire"), it is not THAT complicated. My biggest issue was that I had not used REW in more than 10 years and never on a Mac. I finally figured it out (with more videos and more help) and I have now given up OmniMic (for the most part). There will occasions when the combined length of the HDMI cable and USB extension cable may not work perfectly, in which case, I will use OmniMic. In fact I have a brand new, never used OmniMic system that I am going to sell if you know anyone who is interested. I paid $319 with shipping and taxes and will sell for $250 shipped. Dayton Audio charges about $23.00 for the DVD that is used and I will include it as well.


Glad to have been able to help you out, Chuck!

The real question is how does it sound? Have you had the chance to rerun the optimizer and do any critical listening?


----------



## audioguy

fattire said:


> Glad to have been able to help you out, Chuck!
> 
> The real question is how does it sound? Have you had the chance to rerun the optimizer and do any critical listening?


I have not yet listened. Tomorrow I am going to a friend's house for more MSO practice (2 rows, 3 seats each) and he also has a Trinnov. But, quite frankly, I can't imagine under what conditions it won't sound just fine.


----------



## fattire

audioguy said:


> I have not yet listened. Tomorrow I am going to a friend's house for more MSO practice (2 rows, 3 seats each) and he also has a Trinnov. But, quite frankly, I can't imagine under what conditions it won't sound just fine, though, in my solution, there are a few very high Q filters that could be problematic and potentially audible.


Gotcha. You could always limit the Q when optimizing to keep MSO from creating filters too narrow for your liking. I did this just last week for someone using amp-based DSP supporting a max Q of 10.


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> I have not yet listened. Tomorrow I am going to a friend's house for more MSO practice (2 rows, 3 seats each) and he also has a Trinnov. But, quite frankly, I can't imagine under what conditions it won't sound just fine.


There are several reasons why it won't automatically sound fine, just because there is a nice smooth response and good seat to seat consistency. There are too many things that happen below the transition frequency beyond just frequency response, especially down low where we have to deal with not only the peaks/nulls of specific modal frequencies, but also lack of energy between modes, modal decay rates, and such. Aggressive high Q filters can can rob a system of dynamics/texture/detail, cause clipping, distortion, oscillation, ringing, and just generally sound odd. 

I can't count the number of times I have worked hours to get a smooth response as a starting point, listened to a few cuts of music, and started over from scratch! 

MSO is a valuable tool for sure. But like every other room corrections system, it can't replace experience, knowledge and expertise, tools to measure the result, and of course, familiar content and our ear/brain combo.


----------



## audioguy

appelz said:


> There are several reasons why it won't automatically sound fine, just because there is a nice smooth response and good seat to seat consistency. There are too many things that happen below the transition frequency beyond just frequency response, especially down low where we have to deal with not only the peaks/nulls of specific modal frequencies, but also lack of energy between modes, modal decay rates, and such. Aggressive high Q filters can can rob a system of dynamics/texture/detail, cause clipping, distortion, oscillation, ringing, and just generally sound odd.
> 
> I can't count the number of times I have worked hours to get a smooth response as a starting point, listened to a few cuts of music, and started over from scratch!
> 
> MSO is a valuable tool for sure. But like every other room corrections system, it can't replace experience, knowledge and expertise, tools to measure the result, and of course, familiar content and our ear/brain combo.


Fair enough. I was, however, very aware of a number of those issues, which is why I constrained MSO to not use high Q filters, and put very strict limits on any positive gains used. But you are correct, a pretty FR curve most certainly does not guarantee good audio results. I will be doing some full testing (including listening) on a number of rooms to get a better feel for how all of the pieces work together. But at least MSO gives me a better starting point than I had without it. And am very grateful to Andy for developing such an amazingly useful tool.


----------



## RemixMark

audioguy said:


> Here you go.
> View attachment 3258554
> 
> 
> And here are the MSO performance metrics. The metrics (and graph) when using 8 PEQs instead of 6 are slightly better but I'm not convinced audibly better.
> View attachment 3258555
> 
> And here are the "predictions" as provided by MSO. Scale is not the same as I was unable to get the MSO scale to match that from REW.
> As you can see, the actual measured results above align quite well with the predicted results. If you are only dealing with a single row, there are other ways (may or may not be as accurate) to try to deal with seat-to-seat consistency. But I have two upcoming rooms to calibrate, each with 3 rows and 5 seats each. Without something like MSO, there is no way to get this level of seat to seat consistency. The Trinnov has some tools to assist and it does quite well, but it won't do this.
> View attachment 3258559


What frequency constraints are you giving MSO in your PEQ’s filters? Your MSO graph seems to be falling off at 100Hz. @andyc56 ; suggests going an octave over your x-over level. So if you x-over at 80Hz the upper limit of your PEQ filters should be 160Hz. 

As @fattire ;taught me, you can use up to 18 PEQ filters if you count the 10 PEQ biquads and the 8 x-over biquads in the minidsp 2x4hd. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fattire

RemixMark said:


> What frequency constraints are you giving MSO in your PEQ’s filters? Your MSO graph seems to be falling off at 100Hz. @andyc56 ; suggests going an octave over your x-over level. So if you x-over at 80Hz the upper limit of your PEQ filters should be 160Hz.
> 
> As @fattire ;taught me, you can use up to 18 PEQ filters if you count the 10 PEQ biquads and the 8 x-over biquads in the minidsp 2x4hd.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He's not using a miniDSP. He's using combination of Trinnov's active crossover and native EQ capabilities.


----------



## audioguy

RemixMark said:


> What frequency constraints are you giving MSO in your PEQ’s filters? Your MSO graph seems to be falling off at 100Hz. @andyc56 ; *suggests going an octave over your x-over level. *So if you x-over at 80Hz the upper limit of your PEQ filters should be 160Hz.
> 
> As @fattire ;taught me, you can use up to 18 PEQ filters if you count the 10 PEQ biquads and the 8 x-over biquads in the minidsp 2x4hd.


(1) Blame physics. I could put PEQ with a gain of 25dB where it drops off north of 100Hz and it won't fix a thing (with the exception of the company's revenue stream who made the subs as I would get to replace all of the drivers)
(2) I'm a believer as it relates to both subs and main speakers that less is better. In this case "less" is fewer PEQs. And high Q PEQs have their own set of potential issues. If 8 PEQs only gets me 1 dB improvement over 6 PEQs, I will use 6. We are taking low frequencies here. If we were talking about 3500Hz, I would be all over a 1dB improvement as that can be very audible. Common sense should prevail in these kinds of things.


----------



## sdrucker

delete


----------



## audioguy

I had the pleasure of entertaing a fellow HT enthusiast and his wife today who wanted to hear an all Wisdom theater. Came all the way from Indiana. He liked what he heard so much, that he is going to replicate the same audio system in under construction theater - Trinnov and all. (Sage Line 2's for LCRs; L8i's for surrounds, ICS7a's for Atmos - 9.x.6)


----------



## audioguy

This has nothing to do with my theater (or Wisdom Audio or Trinnov), but yet again, confirms what my Avatar says: "It's Always The Room".

I agreed to calibrate a room using an Audyssey based processor since this particular client was related to another Trinnov client. (I normally don't calibrate such rooms (using Audyssey and equivalent), because, quite frankly, they don't offer enough flexibility to justify what I bring to table and what I charge. I have nothing against those products since I have one in our family room.) After I arrived, my existing client asked if I wanted to hear the system as is. That is, pre EQ room correction. The room consisted of Triad Golds as LCRs and don't recall the other Triad speakers (Bronze I believe). And each corner of the room contained an SVS SB-16 Ultra Sub - in a fairly small room. And most importantly, this room was fully and propelry treated with a full complement of GIK passive room threatment products. I normally don't bother to listen to what the room sounds like prior to beginning, but in this case, I did. And what a (not surprising) surprise.

Clearly the subs were a bit hot and the FR of the speakers was less than perfect, but the sound in that fully treated, but un-calibrated room, *far* surpassed many rooms I have been in that were calibrated (even with a Trinnov) but not treated as properly. Even with the excessive bass, there was NO bass bloating (in fact, it sounded spectacular). Dialog was crystal clear, transients were incredible, normally subtle background sounds (in the movie) were easily audible. Everything about it was, literally, breathtaking.

I see so many rooms on AVS ( and elsewhere) that, that while they have some treatment, they are still leaving so much sound quality on the table. While a few (or even a lot) of absorption panels can potentially improve (or, sometimes make worse) sound quality, *doing is right is worth whatever it costs*. And that means some absorption, absorption/diffusion and diffusion. More important than the speakers you will select; or the processor; or the amps, or ANYTHING else.

If you are building a theater using one of the few highly regarded companies that REALLY knows what they are doing, you will be fine. But if you are more DIY, my recommendation is to actively consider using the free design services of GIK and as funds allow, do everything "they" recommend. And if funds won't allow "everything" initially, then make sure it all still gets done, sooner ratther than latere. In this case, "they" is at least one individual in whom I have great confidence. I'm not saying there are not other alternatives to GIK, but GIK seems to have a plethora of different acoustic treatment options I don't see elsewhere AND the free design services.

And, for what it's worth, when we finished, those SVS subs were ruler flat to 11Hz. I've done other rooms with SVS subs that did not go anywhere near that level.

*IT'S ALWAYS THE ROOM. ALWAYS !!!!!!!*


----------



## beastaudio

Great post Chuck. I can't agree more about placement, design, and treatment. Even my own space could likely use a better (more professional) room treatment plan....there's always somethin'. While the pics of my room show a TON of absorption panels, only about half of them actually have the material in them, and are only on the walls to establish continuity and symmetry. I was one of those that started out over-absorbing like many others, but have gradually worked my way back down to a pretty good amount (While still a little on the heavy side). Next step is to add in my scl-4's finally and then re-address the room since they will be quite different from the coaxials I am currently running...


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> I normally don't bother to listen to what the room sounds like prior to beginning, but in this case, I did. And what a (not surprising) surprise.
> 
> Clearly the subs were a bit hot and the FR of the speakers was less than perfect, but the sound in that fully treated, but un-calibrated room, *far* surpassed many rooms I have been in that were calibrated (even with a Trinnov) but not treated as properly. Even with the excessive bass, there was NO bass bloating (in fact, it sounded spectacular). Dialog was crystal clear, transients were incredible, normally subtle background sounds (in the movie) were easily audible. Everything about it was, literally, breathtaking.





audioguy said:


> And, for what it's worth, when we finished, those SVS subs were ruler flat to 11Hz. I've done other rooms with SVS subs that did not go anywhere near that level.


First, GREAT POST, and I TOTALLY agree with your statement that...


audioguy said:


> IT'S ALWAYS THE ROOM. ALWAYS !!!!!!!


I'm not surprised the system sounded excellent in a well-treated room even befor you started. I've installed several systems with Triad Gold LCR's and they are excellent! And 4 subs of almost any kind should also be excellent. However, I' curious about the before/after results. 

So, I know you used Audyssey XT32 with the new Audyssey:X app. How did that go? And did it add anything to the overall "breathtaking" sound you had before the Audyssey:X calibration? One of the things improved upon with X is the time alignment of the speakers, which many have found improves imaging, especially of the phantom images. Did you notice anything in that regard? 

Also, did X get the subs "flat to 11 Hz" on it's own, or did you need to add any PEQ's afterwards to help with that. The SVS PB16+ subs have 3 alignments:










Looks to me like the extended mode, or sealed mode plus room gain, would be the most likely to get to 11 Hz, especially with 4 of them. Which did you use? 

The SVS also has a phone app that allows for some EQ capability. Did you use that at all? If so, before or after Audyssey:X?

Finally, do you have any before/after measurements you can share? I would be particularly interested in the time alignments of the impulse responses. I was able to achieve this with Audyssey:X









The X-axis is in MICRO-seconds, not milliseconds, so that represents extremely good time alignment. I'm curious if you found the same? 

Finally, I assume you spent some time listening to the system after you did all the work. Can you post any "after" listening impressions? 

Thanks!!!

Craig


----------



## audioguy

Post deleted.


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> Great post Chuck. I can't agree more about placement, design, and treatment. Even my own space could likely use a better (more professional) room treatment plan....there's always somethin'. While the pics of my room show a TON of absorption panels, only about half of them actually have the material in them, and are only on the walls to establish continuity and symmetry. I was one of those that started out over-absorbing like many others, but have gradually worked my way back down to a pretty good amount (While still a little on the heavy side). Next step is to add in my scl-4's finally and then re-address the room since they will be quite different from the coaxials I am currently running...


Don't forget some diffusion. When you get to that point, and have interest in GIK assistance, let me know and I will provide a contact. They can REALLY assist.


----------



## ambesolman

beastaudio said:


> Great post Chuck. I can't agree more about placement, design, and treatment. Even my own space could likely use a better (more professional) room treatment plan....there's always somethin'. While the pics of my room show a TON of absorption panels, only about half of them actually have the material in them, and are only on the walls to establish continuity and symmetry. I was one of those that started out over-absorbing like many others, but have gradually worked my way back down to a pretty good amount (While still a little on the heavy side). Next step is to add in my scl-4's finally and then re-address the room since they will be quite different from the coaxials I am currently running...


How have those coaxials worked out for you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?


----------



## audioguy

After having owned the JVC Z9/RS4100 for about 6 months, I had it calibrated yesterday. WOW. I thought it had a stunning image previously. Better, deeper colors; better gray scale, better ........ He says he only got about 95% out of it, intentionally (and charged me less), since I am going to have him come back after I get a hush box and re-do it for HDR using high lamp - to obtain a few more nits. But, as is, it looks terrific.


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Finally, do you have any before/after measurements you can share? I would be particularly interested in the time alignments of the impulse responses. I was able to achieve this with Audyssey:X
> View attachment 3292306
> 
> 
> The X-axis is in MICRO-seconds, not milliseconds, so that represents extremely good time alignment. I'm curious if you found the same?
> 
> Craig


I've always used OmniMic for looking at impulse response - so what is the trick to change the x-axis to micro seconds in REW when looking at impulse response?

I would like to look at before and after Trinnov Optimizer (as well as what I did with my Marantz and Audyssey).


----------



## craig john

Hi Chuck,

Here is the process:

With the FR's of all the channels/speakers of interest checked and displayed on the All SPL graph, click on the Impulse Response tab.

In the upper left corner of the graph, you'll see a label that will display as either dBFS or "%", (it defaults to dBFS). Scroll over that label and a drop down will appear that allows for selection between the two. Select "%".

Then click "Overlays" at the top of the screen.

Then open the "Limits" button and set the limits to Left s = -0.001 and the Right s = 0.001, and Top to 110% and Bottom to -110%. Click Fit to Data and you should end up with a graph that looks like this:










The X-axis is scaled in micro-seconds. This graph is the post-Audyssey:X time alignment of my base-layer speakers. REW can't send test signals to the Overheads, so no way to check the time alignment of those channels.

I will be interested to see your results with Trinnov! 

Craig


----------



## craig john

craig john said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> Here is the process:
> 
> With the FR's of all the channels/speakers of interest checked and displayed on the All SPL graph, click on the Impulse Response tab.
> 
> In the upper left corner of the graph, you'll see a label that will display as either dBFS or "%", (it defaults to dBFS). Scroll over that label and a drop down will appear that allows for selection between the two. Select "%".
> 
> Then click "Overlays" at the top of the screen.
> 
> Then open the "Limits" button and set the limits to Left s = -0.001 and the Right s = 0.001, and Top to 110% and Bottom to -110%. Click Fit to Data and you should end up with a graph that looks like this:
> 
> View attachment 3320611
> 
> 
> The X-axis is scaled in micro-seconds. This graph is the post-Audyssey:X time alignment of my base-layer speakers. REW can't send test signals to the Overheads, so no way to check the time alignment of those channels.
> 
> I will be interested to see your results with Trinnov!
> 
> Craig


Edit: I forgot to add that you need to use a Timing Reference when you take the original FR measurements. That is selected in the "Preferences" tab prior to running the test sweeps.


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> Here is the process:
> 
> With the FR's of all the channels/speakers of interest checked and displayed on the All SPL graph, click on the Impulse Response tab.
> 
> In the upper left corner of the graph, you'll see a label that will display as either dBFS or "%", (it defaults to dBFS). Scroll over that label and a drop down will appear that allows for selection between the two. Select "%".
> 
> Then click "Overlays" at the top of the screen.
> 
> Then open the "Limits" button and set the limits to Left s = -0.001 and the Right s = 0.001, and Top to 110% and Bottom to -110%. Click Fit to Data and you should end up with a graph that looks like this:
> 
> View attachment 3320611
> 
> 
> The X-axis is scaled in micro-seconds. This graph is the post-Audyssey:X time alignment of my base-layer speakers. REW can't send test signals to the Overheads, so no way to check the time alignment of those channels.
> 
> I will be interested to see your results with Trinnov!
> 
> Craig


I did (and do) all of the above, including setting a timing reference EXCEPT changing the limits to -.001 and +.001.

I will try my other computer and find some exisiting LCR measurements and see what the impule response looks like - or create new ones for every speaker.


craig john said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> Here is the process:
> 
> With the FR's of all the channels/speakers of interest checked and displayed on the All SPL graph, click on the Impulse Response tab.
> 
> In the upper left corner of the graph, you'll see a label that will display as either dBFS or "%", (it defaults to dBFS). Scroll over that label and a drop down will appear that allows for selection between the two. Select "%".
> 
> Then click "Overlays" at the top of the screen.
> 
> Then open the "Limits" button and set the limits to Left s = -0.001 and the Right s = 0.001, and Top to 110% and Bottom to -110%. Click Fit to Data and you should end up with a graph that looks like this:
> 
> View attachment 3320611
> 
> 
> The X-axis is scaled in micro-seconds. This graph is the post-Audyssey:X time alignment of my base-layer speakers. REW can't send test signals to the Overheads, so no way to check the time alignment of those channels.
> 
> I will be interested to see your results with Trinnov!
> 
> Craig


I finally got them to plot and am trying to figure out how to get them off a computer that has no email app. But HUGE surprise. While yours appear to be within +/- 50 u seconds, mine are basically no better (between 0 and 100 micro seconds). That speaks volumes about the improvement in the new Audyssey PC app and its improvement over vanilla Audyssey. I tried running the left signal thru the wides and tops but am not convinced that doesn't mess up the correct delays.

Too bad Audyssey took this long to genuinely improve their product. With the ability to use REW to measure the native response, create filters and upload them to the AVR and then (if you choose) run Audyssey on top of that, one get get much better results - both measurably and audibly. Good for them


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Too bad Audyssey took this long to genuinely improve their product. With the ability to use REW to measure the native response, create filters and upload them to the AVR and then (if you choose) run Audyssey on top of that, one get get much better results - both measurably and audibly. Good for them


The time alignment issue wasn't Audyssey. It was the receiver manufacturers. Audyssey has always had the correct time alignment. Audyssey's Pro Kit, (any the identical SVS AS-EQ1), always had it, right from day 1. It was the receiver manufacturers who mesed it up by rounding off the speed of sound used in the calculation for time alignment that lead to the the recently exposed issues. Even the mobile app, that was written by Denon/Marantz had the rounding error. 

It wasn't until Audyssey themselves wrote the Windows App that the problem came to light, and then it was only "discovered" when a forum member, Easley, asked Audyssey Tech Support a question about it. Audyssey:X is a huge improvement in many other respects, but the time alignment issue, that it corrected, was caused by the receiver manufacturers.

Does Trinnov allow their licensees to F around with the program like that? 

Craig


----------



## craig john

FYI, this is what time Alignment looks like with just receiver-based Audyssey run without the correction factors:










This is what Audyssey's time alignment looked like before the latest correction factor (0.875) was introduced by Easley. The graph you just sent me, (which I presume is your Time Alignment with Trinnov), looks much better than this. (For some reason, the resolution of the image you sent is very low and I can't really read the scales of the axes. Try attaching it here on the forum and see if it comes through with higher resolution.) 

Audyssey:X uses the correct time alignment algorithm, (because it was written by Audyssey, not Denon/Marantz), and gives the results I posted a few posts up, and they look more similar to yours. 

Craig

PS. Alternatively, send me the .mdat file and I can open it on my computer to see what it looks like.


----------



## audioguy

*THIS* has nothing to do with our theater (or any other theater) - but it has LOTS to do with "expectation bias" - and specifically those who think they are not subject to it.


----------



## cricket9998

How did you make this panel grid? Looking to do something similar. Is it on the wall? 



http://imgur.com/8WpLrWP


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Does Trinnov allow their licensees to F around with the program like that?
> 
> Craig


Since Trinnov developed both the hardware as well as the room correction system, that really doesn't apply.


----------



## audioguy

I have been experimenting with Josh.ai (See* HERE* for more about the company) in our theater. It is a voice control system, something like Amazon's Alexa but far more flexible, capable and intuitive. And it can be intergated with systems like Control4. For example, I can walk into the theater and say "Hey Josh, let's watch Top Gun:Maverick" and it will start up the theater, somehow find the movie on my Kaleidescape and it starts up. There are still some bugs in that specific area that need addressing, but the potential is clearly there. I can say, "Josh, it's too dark in here" and it will adjust the lights accordingly. And I can concatenate commands as well. For example, "Hey Josh, its too warm in here, lets watch 'Top Gun' and turn the accent lights on and then turn off the chair lights and the perimeter cans". If I had drapes or shades or blinds, I could add commands to adjust those as well. Unlike Alexa that requires very specific commands, Josh allows much more flexibility. I am aware of another Josh.ai user whose small children (3 and 4 years old), are able to control all that goes on in and around their rooms - turning on and off their TV's, adjust lights, shades, etc. 

Nifty product and over time, will greatly improve. Worth investigating if you are considering a home automation control system.


----------



## audioguy

This won't come as a complete surprise to some, but I have decided to replace my 8 Seaton subs with subs from Ascendo. I was able to be on a conversation with the designer of those subs as well as having had conversations with those who have heard them, and, apparently, they are THE subs. I will get more into the design specifics in the future. I will be calibrating an all Ascendo room in about 10 days and can't wait to hear the results.

For my room, I will end up with their _almost_ "Back To The Future" 32" sub (they have a 50" and are working on an 80") in the rear of the room and dual 18's in the front two corners. The 32" handles from south of 10Hz to about 50 Hz and the 18's handle above that. Everyone that has heard them uses two words (amongst others) to describe the sound: FAST and LAYERED (never heard that word used to describe any sub). The 32" will be driven by 10,000 watts (220V circuit): 2500W x 4 (Bridged into 5000W x 2) driving each of the two voice coils in the 32”. And each of the four 18's will be driven by 2500 watts (also a 220V circuit). The 220V circuits are not mandatory but using 110v doubles the current demand. I won't know if I will be able to use 220V until my electrician gets here.

It truly never ends.

So if anyone has any interest in 8 Seaton subs (2 Masters, and 6 Slaves, 2 of which are the thin profile model *OR* 1 Master and 3 Slaves) let me know. Current MSRP (new) is $16,800 + Shipping for 8. If you want to come pick ALL 8 of them up (and can wait about 6 weeks or so), they are yours for *JUST* $6000 ($750/sub) or $3500 for 4 ($875/sub). I have all of the original shipping boxes. For now, I'm only interested in selling all 8 or two groups of 4 - Master and 3 Slaves or Master + 3 Slaves). I'm not interested (for now) in selling this in small pieces, but if you have interest in pieces, PM me (including your offers) and I will keep them if I can't sell the whole bundle !!

While these are no longer under warranty, Mark built neither the amps nor the driver, so should something happen to either (pretty unlikely the driver), you can send the amp off to the manufacturer, have it repaired and they can install the required DSP settings.

Exciting times ahead in the Oconee Theater !! (and my wallet)

As a reference, 2 JTR Captivator 2's (four 18 inch drivers) sell for a bit over $9000. Four Rythmic 18" subs are $7400.


----------



## fattire

Congrats, Chuck! While you don't get the full experience in a CEDIA demo room, I did get to listen to the Ascendo subs there. They were running them a bit hot for my personal taste, but they were impressive for sure! There was gobs of output, but the impression of a _ton_ of headroom. I can't wait to hear your impressions of them.

Just curious ... what kind of lead time is there on your new subs?


----------



## audioguy

fattire said:


> Congrats, Chuck! While you don't get the full experience in a CEDIA demo room, I did get to listen to the Ascendo subs there. They were running them a bit hot for my personal taste, but they were impressive for sure! There was gobs of output, but the impression of a _ton_ of headroom. I can't wait to hear your impressions of them.
> 
> Just curious ... what kind of lead time is there on your new subs?


I have just placed my order so don't have an estimated ship date.

I have NEVER bought an A/V product without hearing it first - until this one, which is particularly insane given the MSRP would pay for an incredibly nice luxury automobile. A number of people whose ears I trust (and have heard various combinations of these subs) have made the consistent comment that it was by a long way the most, clean, layered, fast low frequency audio they have ever experienced. And for the same reasons I "invested" in the Wisdom speakers, I decided "why not". And in a couple of weeks while calibrating an all Ascendo room, I will have the opportunity to learn, first hand, from the designer of these speakers on how he integrates/calibrates the two sets of subs - and how he then integrates to the mains. 

I was able to be on a Zoom call with the designer (who also owns part of the company) and his explanation behind their design goals (at least for the subs since that is all we were talking about) was really interesting. There were two that stood out (and that I actually understood - way too many descriptions well above my pay grade): (1) Most sub-woofers are designed to a price point. Ascendo chose not to do that but rather chose to design the very best sub-woofers possible, cost be darned; (2) And in order to obtain response from single digits to whatever the top end response was, they would use two different sets of drivers. That is exactly how the typical main speakers are designed - tweeter, mid-range, low frequencies. Why? Each driver is designed for a specific frequency range. The Ascendo approach is to have an Infrasonic sub (24", 32", 50", 80") that operates from single digits to about 50 Hz and the "regular" sub can operate from ~18Hz (but the notes say + 10dB) to 200Hz. Makes perfect sense to me but it most certainly does create a non-inexpensive solution.

I watched a youtube video from one of the "reviewers" and he was using a couple of the 18's (no Infrasonic subs) and while you could tell the subs were very dynamic (watching their expressions), it was commented they did not go very low, which to me means they didn't get anywhere near 18Hz.

Given their pricing, they are certainly not trying to compete with the likes of JTR, JL Audio, Rythmic, etc. Some of the Funk Audio subs are in the stratosphere. For example, Funk sells a single 18" sub in the Ultra Series for (drum roll please) over $11,000 !!! Look *HERE**. *I'm willing to sell 8 18" subs for $6000


----------



## fattire

audioguy said:


> I have just placed my order so don't have an estimated ship date.
> 
> I have NEVER bought an A/V product without hearing it first - until this one, which is particularly insane given the MSRP would pay for an incredibly nice luxury automobile. A number of people whose ears I trust (and have heard various combinations of these subs) have made the consistent comment that it was by a long way the most, clean, layered, fast low frequency audio they have ever experienced. And for the same reasons I "invested" in the Wisdom speakers, I decided "why not". And in a couple of weeks while calibrating an all Ascendo room, I will have the opportunity to learn, first hand, from the designer of these speakers on how he integrates/calibrates the two sets of subs - and how he then integrates to the mains.
> 
> I was able to be on a Zoom call with the designer (who also owns part of the company) and his explanation behind their design goals (at least for the subs since that is all we were talking about) was really interesting. There were two that stood out (and that I actually understood - way too many descriptions well above my pay grade): (1) Most sub-woofers are designed to a price point. Ascendo chose not to do that but rather chose to design the very best sub-woofers possible, cost be darned; (2) And in order to obtain response from single digits to whatever the top end response was, they would use two different sets of drivers. That is exactly how the typical main speakers are designed - tweeter, mid-range, low frequencies. Why? Each driver is designed for a specific frequency range. The Ascendo approach is to have an Infrasonic sub (24", 32", 50", 80") that operates from single digits to about 50 Hz and the "regular" sub can operate from ~18Hz (but the notes say + 10dB) to 200Hz. Makes perfect sense to me but it most certainly does create a non-inexpensive solution.
> 
> I watched a youtube video from one of the "reviewers" and he was using a couple of the 18's (no Infrasonic subs) and while you could tell the subs were very dynamic (watching their expressions), it was commented they did not go very low, which to me means they didn't get anywhere near 18Hz.
> 
> Given their pricing, they are certainly not trying to compete with the likes of JTR, JL Audio, Rythmic, etc. Some of the Funk Audio subs are in the stratosphere. For example, Funk sells a single 18" sub in the Ultra Series for (drum roll please) over $11,000 !!! Look *HERE**. *I'm willing to sell 8 18" subs for $6000


That all makes total sense with regards to different subs for different bandwidth. One thing I’ve learned while dipping my toe into DIY is the vast differences between drivers. It’s easy to build one that extends really deep or has a ton of mid-bass. It’s _very_ had to build one that does both (are there any?). Ascendo are clearly saying that too and deeply specializing their builds to fulfill the need. 

Really cool stuff! I can‘t wait to hear your impressions (and Adam’s if he ever gets the Lab fully going ;-)).


----------



## beastaudio

I have had some good fun integrating multiple types of subs for different bandwidths for years. If you want a primer course on what might work, you know how to find me


----------

