# Control 4 vs Crestron



## shamoo1

So I saw the largest Crestron dealer's demo in our area, and the largest Control4 dealer's demo and had a chance to compare.


What I came away with was both systems can do exactly the same thing (though the Control4 system I saw was hooked up to a Vantage lighting control unit).. main difference was the control for Control4 was actually more more intuitive and it sounded like the programming was easier.. the Crestron dealer himself was having dificulty finding things saying "they just changed this on us..." lol.. if its intuitive that shouldn't matter should it...


But the Crestron dealer and others seem to suggest Crestron is worth the extra cost but from the demos I saw, I can't seem to figure out why... seemed actually worse to me.. any thoughts?


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## Neurorad

Perhaps that Crestron dealer should find a new programmer, or programming company. Speak with the Crestron dealer about the programming. He can farm out the programming to any Crestron programmer, worldwide. He may not want to, but with Crestron he could. Of the thousands of certified Crestron programmers, some have extraordinary talent, and some do not.


The Crestron hardware, IMO, is much better than C4.


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## westcojack

IMHO if the project is large or if there is a great deal of data going back and forth between devices and the controller, Crestron can't be beat.

Control4 does very well for smaller homes whee the devices are closer to eachother.

+1 Neurorad on the programming. The Crestron system should be bulletproof.

Crestron or Control4 or for that matter Niles, Savant, RTI, etc., etc., etc., all work well with Vantage.

(BTW we are not Crestron or Control4 dealers.)


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## DaveGee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/21926117
> 
> 
> The Crestron hardware, IMO, is much better than C4.



While that may very well be true, once a solution is purchased & installed it could turn into a pile of junk if the dealer you purchased from goes away right?


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## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DaveGee* /forum/post/21933531
> 
> 
> While that may very well be true, once a solution is purchased & installed it could turn into a pile of junk if the dealer you purchased from goes away right?



Nope. Not if you negotiate a copy of your program into the sale. That way any programmer can pick up where they left off.


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## DaveGee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/21933548
> 
> 
> Nope. Not if you negotiate a copy of your program into the sale. That way any programmer can pick up where they left off.



That's really good to know however I'm willing to bet many/most customers don't know to even ask for that...


Also while that very good advice is something it's still strange that one would have to negotiate something just to make sure you aren't left out in the cold if their reseller closes up shop.


Imagine trying to sell a new Audi that would end up being orphaned by Audi if the dealer closed up shop unless the buyer purchased an unadvertised 'get out of jail free' card at the time they drove the car off the lot?


I guess that it comes down to is that the people that can afford the system in the first place wouldn't be phased by rebuying a whole new setup if their dealer goes away.


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## bigpapa

The difference between the Control 4 and Crestron dealers were the dealers.


Control 4's UI is closed, not very customizable. This is by design, and saves cost. A dealer configures the software. In many cases, this is fine.


Crestron's UI is infinitely customizable but takes much more programming skill, that's why you have programmers. Sounds like their demo systems were not really done or polished, not ready for demo. If they really weren't done the person demonstrating should have set your expectations before starting.


Both platforms have their strengths and weaknesses. C4 makes some really good cost effective products and can do a lot of automation stuff. Crestron has some great products too, they have the massive product line. The good dealers will know the good and bad and design around them to deliver a good finished product to the client.


As you said, both can do essentially the same thing. So that means you need to pick a dealer, not the equipment.



> Quote:
> I guess that it comes down to is that the people that can afford the system in the first place wouldn't be phased by rebuying a whole new setup if their dealer goes away.



I don't know any wealthy people who 'wouldn't be phased' by rebuying a whole new setup. They absolutely would be phased. You would not need to buy a whole new setup, only have system reprogrammed.


The fact of the matter is ownership of the Crestron software is an issue but it's being overstated yet again. In smaller systems, even if you have a full copy of the software, a new programmer may just reprogram the whole thing instead of trying to figure out how the previous programmer built his program. The UI may be useable but as for the backend code, many programmers would bite the bullet and reprogram it in their style.


It matters more in larger systems or in custom programming.


All this consideration of negative impacts and risk adds even more imperative to vet your systems contractor as much as if not more than the actual equipment manufacturer.


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## shamoo1

It sounds like I always hear 3 things to justify the extra cost of the Crestron system


1. More customizable

2. More reliable

3. More scalable



I am just a layperson looking to build a home, about 9000 sq ft and want to automate for A/V distribution, home theater, lighting exterior interior, security, thermostats...


Now as for Crestron being more customizable, from what I saw, from the standpoint of the layperson homeowner, I felt that both could achieve what I wanted.


Reliability wise, from what I heard, both are equally reliable.


As for scalability, the demo of control4 showed full control of all the items I mentioned in the showroom with a lot of nice polish to the system built in (whereas I assume to get that polish with Crestron you really need a good programmer). Nothing was complicated to control or buried in menus.


All that for what the dealer tells me (who deals both crestron and control4) at a 30-40% cost savings.


I understand that most dealers deal with percentage margins so obviously the more expensive system will be more lucrative and also in this case requires more sophisticated programming hence more charges there. I have not heard anything truly, objectively stating a clear fact or spec that gives me any reason at all to want the Crestron over the Control4.


That said, I'm sure some concrete reasons must be there to justify the greater cost.. I just wish it was more transparent... and I have to wonder if the difference is only in more extreme applications and that is why there are only vague claims instead of actual specs being quoted to support the superiority claims... because then most of the customers would realize they are paying extra for something they wouldn't need in the first place.


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## stefuel

Before you pass judgement, search out some independent programmers websites and see some of the GUI's they have to offer.


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## shamoo1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/21935233
> 
> 
> Before you pass judgement, search out some independent programmers websites and see some of the GUI's they have to offer.



I guess what I'm saying is that even if Crestron has a better UI, heck even if I just laid my palm on it and it read my mind, the Control4 UI was pretty decent enough.. and if it was a 5-10% price difference i might consider the UI issues, but the price differential is much larger for the application I mentioned in my original post.. for that big a difference unless the control4 was a failure for other reasons, I can't see a reason to consider Crestron.


Yet Crestron has a big name and there's plenty of homeowner's choosing Crestron.. so I guess what I'm asking is, am I missing something here?


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## stefuel

Well for me it's Crestron. I need something that is infinately customizable.

My youngest boy is austistic. I needed to come up with a bullit proof way for him to run a very complicated home theater. Few people understand how complicated a old school high end CRT home theater can be. Every device feeding the projector at different scan rates and aspect ratios through a scaler. You just can't toss a pile of remotes at a kid especially a autistic child and expect them to get it. It's a good thing I do my own programming because it took quite a few trials to come up with GUI's that a autistic child could negotiate easily. The test was the dumb blonde next door. If she could do it, anyone could. She almost got it







My son has no problem with it.


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## javry




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shamoo1* /forum/post/21936516
> 
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is that even if Crestron has a better UI, heck even if I just laid my palm on it and it read my mind, the Control4 UI was pretty decent enough.. and if it was a 5-10% price difference i might consider the UI issues, but the price differential is much larger for the application I mentioned in my original post.. for that big a difference unless the control4 was a failure for other reasons, I can't see a reason to consider Crestron.
> 
> 
> Yet Crestron has a big name and there's plenty of homeowner's choosing Crestron.. so I guess what I'm asking is, am I missing something here?



Shamoo - from a cold eye review of your thread so far - seems to me like you've already made up your mind. So go forward my man. Eat cake.


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## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shamoo1* /forum/post/21935059
> 
> 
> It sounds like I always hear 3 things to *justify* the extra cost of the Crestron system
> 
> 
> ......
> 
> 
> I understand that most dealers deal with percentage margins so obviously the more expensive system will be more lucrative and also in this case requires more sophisticated programming hence more charges there. I have not heard anything truly, objectively stating a clear fact or spec that gives me any reason at all to want the Crestron over the Control4.
> 
> 
> That said, I'm sure some concrete reasons must be there to justify the greater cost.. I just wish it was more transparent... and I have to wonder if the difference is only in more extreme applications and that is why there are only vague claims instead of actual specs being quoted to support the superiority claims... because then most of the customers would realize they are paying extra for something they wouldn't need in the first place.



It sounds like you're trying to justify choosing the less expensive option against the worry of leaving yourself short. Doubt and cynicism are creeping in.


The issue is not transparency at all. Transparency would mean you would have access to all the various bits of sometimes very nuanced information noting the differences between the two systems in relation to your requirements, the end potentially being that one platform might be a slightly better choice than the other, but both would work well.


You seem to be taking this choice seriously, maybe even overthinking it.


You have custom installers that support both platforms. Both of you consult on your needs and budget requirements, and it seems both will fit the bill, but one solution is more expensive. Maybe the custom installer has difficulty explaining the key differences in simple layman terms. This may seem like he's being vague. But it's difficult to encompass the vast differences between the two platforms in a couple of quick statements, other than 'Crestron is 30-40% more but better' Or 'C4: 95% of the features for half the price!' I find both those statements trite and would never use them.


Specs are only part of the equation. Crestron's multiroom amps are 60wpc, but Control 4 has 60 wpc amps. Does that mean they are equivalent? No it doesn't. Suppose Crestron's amps are 'better,' does that mean that C4's amps suck and you should go Crestron for everything else?


Both do lighting. Does that mean they are equivalent? Not at all. In a 9,000 sf home I can see C4 severely lacking, or maybe it would fit the bill very well and be much cheaper. I don't know your needs. If you're only doing a few lighting loads in the Main Living areas and maybe the Master Bed, C4 might do fine. If you're doing 200 loads of varying load types including fan/shade motors I wouldn't think of attempting to do C4, it would be Crestron. As a 'dealer' for both I wouldn't give you an option in that case.


HDMI distribution? I wouldn't give you a choice, it would be Crestron DM. C4 is getting it's feet wet with HDMI distro aligning with other manufacturers but I'm going with the platform I trust. It's also the most expensive platform. To a layman, they may think I make this choice because of margin, but the reality is most custom installers will choose reliability over margin. The ones with the most sense anyways.


Does this mean C4 sucks and Crestron is 'better?' Not at all. It means 'in Situation X C4 will work well but in Situation Y Crestron is far superior.'


And we can go on and on. It could take a long while. In the end, is your goal here to become a C4 vs Crestron guru and know all the differences, or to find a good solution for your home? I would think it's the latter. Quite simply, the custom installer's job is to design and commission systems taking into account the client's needs and budget. That they may try to educate the client on differences of choice is an accommodation frequently made, but it's not the core mission or goal of either party.


You need to focus more on the custom installation companies and vet them as much as the platform. It seems that your first impressions were good for C4 but a little iffy for Crestron. But the reality is that your first impressions were due to the installing companies, not the manufacturers. They are human, in a business to make profit, and they may have salesmen trying to get a sale. In the end, the key question should be will that company deliver on it's promises? They are who you have a relationship with, not Crestron or Control 4.


Crestron costs more (although in some cases less than the 30-40% more), does that in and of itself mean you will end up with a better result? Absolutely not. If the installing company doesn't do a good job you will not be satisfied: that you spent more will only make that irritation stronger.


Vet the installers first, the platform second.


Sometimes, you're looking to make your life easier. Having more choice and more decisions to make does not make your life easier, only more complicated. Stick with the professionals. Choose the installer who acts more professional, and if you pay more, so be it. Reduce the amount of system to match your budget.


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## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *javry* /forum/post/21936599
> 
> 
> Shamoo - from a cold eye review of your thread so far - seems to me like you've already made up your mind. So go forward my man. Eat cake.



Yeah, well, why say in 3 sentences what you can with 60?










I think he's leaning one way but wanting some validation.


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## cshepard

There are plenty of homeowners choosing Control4 too--& for good reason. There were definitely reliability issues when I started working with C4 in 2007, but it's solid now. As others have mentioned, you have to find a very skilled programmer to get mid- to larger- sized Crestron system tweaked to its full potential.


The company I work for used to employ a good, but by no means stellar, Crestron programmer. We have been fairly busy recently replacing Crestron systems with C4 for several customers who always end up really happy with Control4.


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## cntp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cshepard* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The company I work for used to employ a good, but by no means stellar, Crestron programmer. We have been fairly busy recently replacing Crestron systems with C4 for several customers who always end up really happy with Control4.



I just wanted to Comment on this quickly, because I hear it a lot:

Anyone who says they are ripping out Crestron and putting in X (and same applies for ripping out AMX, unless to install DM), there are generally at least one of three problems (commonly all three) with the system:

1) The system is old, and they are looking for newer/better looking hardware, or they are suffering hardware failures.

2) The system was poorly engineered. They tried to overtax processors, or didn't have proper wifi or rf coverage, or used products that don't integrate well.

3) The programming and/or UI are done poorly.


Now, none of these are problems with Crestron, they are problems with age (which applies to every manufacturer), or they are problems caused by the integrator. For #3, there are lots of independent programmers out there, and I know quite a few of them are very good. Crestron lists them on their website, they are called CAIP's. Depending on the system, getting the Crestron reprogrammed might be more expensive than installing new Control 4, I don't know.


Customers might be more comfortable with the C4 dealer and not comfortable with any Crestron dealer. The customer might be due for an upgrade, but doesn't want to spend the money for Crestron again. All are perfectly valid reasons to rip out Crestron and go with anything else. Maybe a previous poor experience with Crestron (again, likely programming or engineering problems, not necessarly Crestron problems) have left a poor view of Crestron in general. But, a current, properly engineered and programmed Crestron system should not need to be ripped out and replaced with anything. Saying that you are ripping out Crestron and replacing it with anything is slightly misleading.


Now, I'm not saying anything negative about C4, I don't really know it well enough to have an informed opinion of it. I also don't want to discount anything cshepard is saying or say his company is doing anything wrong or poorly. I just wanted to qualify that statement a little bit with what I believe is happening.


If C4 fits your needs, and you are happy with the integrator selling it, go for it! You saved quite a bit of money. For many projects that my company does (Crestron and AMX programming), I am pretty sure C4 would not work. We do very, very large residential work, some in the hundreds of thousands of dollars in A/V and up. By the way, we have excellent programmers, and all of our clients are very happy with the end results. But generally, it's more about the integrator and their experience/skill level with what they are selling. A good integrator would not try and use C4 for something that it's not appropriate for. Our company would use Crestron for something C4 could do, because that is what we know. A customer is more than welcome to go with another Dealer that does Control 4 if they are cheaper.



Sorry for the long post, but unqualified statements of "We rip out X to put in Y all the time" bug me. It makes people believe that there is a problem with X, and that Y is "better" overall. In some cases it is, others it's not.


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## cshepard

I said the programmer wasn't stellar. I don't think I implied that anything is or was wrong with Crestron.


Perhaps the following statement will help get my point across: In my 8 years as a CI, I don't believe I've seen a Crestron system that "felt" like it was programmed 100% properly. To be fair, of, course, I've seen a few poorly programmed C4 systems--probably including the first two or three I programmed!


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## shamoo1

Just to clarify my intentions.. yes I am leaning towards C4 but I want to make sure if I spend all this money I don't end up regretting and wishing I went with Crestron. Therefore, I am here to try and get some kind of solid undisputed fact that will lean me towards one option vs another.. I do hear claims, but nothing solid enough to make me want Crestron.. I would also regret spending more for Crestron, then ending up with something that is touchier on the programming end and could have been achieved with a cheaper C4 system.


As for the installers I met, one is the largest Crestron installer in the state, other other is one of the largest C4 installers in North America. Both have 20+ years of history in the biz.


The C4 guy says that for the things I mentioned, he installs C4 systems every week and has no issues... they sell and install Crestron as well, and farm out the programming to a capable guy etc etc..


bigpapa you said that if there's a ton of loads, C4 wouldn't be able to handle it. Well, as for lighting these people had Vantage interfaced with C4.. but why would the number of loads be an issue? At what point do you see the C4 system get "overwhelmed?" I keep hearing these scalability claims from Crestron proponents, but I did see the C4 system in action handling quite a lot of loads and I hear C4 proponents saying there is no difference in scalability. From what I hear, the customizability of the UI is better on the Crestron (is that what you mean by number of loads, not that the loads themselves are a problem but the creative ways to control them?) and if you wanted some very funky ways and totally unique ways of controlling your lighting, that's where Crestron helps.. but for the typical layperson, who has a few scenes, and an all off and all on option, as well as dimming and not too buried individual light control... I saw the C4 system and it was good enough for me as is.


Again, I'm not trying to dump on Crestron, I'm asking for a factual basis to justify spending more for it.


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## Mizzer-d

I'm going to chime in here briefly. FYI, I'm not a dealer but, rather, a C4 owner. My c4 system controls my home theater and whole home audio system (Nuvo). I would like to expand into lighting in the near future too. I read up on this stuff but I'm not an expert.


I can tell you, as far as C4 being overwhelmed, I've read elsewhere on this forum that the older, pre-ZigBee Pro (


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## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shamoo1* /forum/post/21939225
> 
> 
> Just to clarify my intentions.. yes I am leaning towards C4 but I want to make sure if I spend all this money I don't end up regretting and wishing I went with Crestron. Therefore, I am here to try and get some kind of solid undisputed fact that will lean me towards one option vs another.



There is no one solid undisputed fact. If there was you would have already heard it. It's not that simple, that's the only real fact. Crestron has the larger product line and many more expensive and higher performing products. But that does not mean that C4's product line will not deliver a great solution for you. That's what the pros are for, to help vet your needs and qualify the product line. If the installing company can commit to your project with a Scope of Work delivering your needs and stand by the performance of the installed system, then maybe you'll be less concerned if it's Crestron or Control 4.



> Quote:
> As for the installers I met, one is the largest Crestron installer in the state, other other is one of the largest C4 installers in North America. Both have 20+ years of history in the biz.



I don't want to completely diminish history or accolades but I would give more credence to referrals from recent clients of those installing companies. Especially, from clients who had systems installed commensurate with your potential system design. Referrals from clients with projects 6-12 months complete would be best. There will be bugs, there will be glitches. Responsiveness and thorough follow up to solution is the mark of a good systems contractor.



> Quote:
> bigpapa you said that if there's a ton of loads, C4 wouldn't be able to handle it. Well, as for lighting these people had Vantage interfaced with C4.. but why would the number of loads be an issue? At what point do you see the C4 system get "overwhelmed?"



By the book and by the specs, C4 will be able to handle it. If I called a C4 rep and asked him 'Hey, I have a project with 200 lighting loads, can C4 do it?" I'm sure he'd say 'Oh yes, we have projects with a 1000 loads out there.' They are a company that makes boxes and they want to sell 200 light switches. On paper, sure it will work.


C4's product line is not meant to conquer the 9,000sf home market, they're focused on the rest of the housing market. The light switches are self contained and communicate by Zigbee. If you have 20 switches or so spread out around 1000-1500 sf then C4 on Zigbee is probably going to be fine, snappy responsiveness and no latency. Its not just the amount of switches, its how far apart the switches are, so there's no magic number or ceiling of devices. Many more times that number of switches across a greater space, I'd be concerned about latency. Also, C4 works on your LAN using LAN linked processors(Creston can too, but in this case it's different). If you have a problem with your LAN, this may impact your lights turning ON/Off when you want. Maybe you have a glitch once or twice a year. If you have glitch with your audio system, it's annoying. If you have a glitch with your lighting, or AC when it's hot, it's very frustrating.


Vantage, Lutron, and Crestron also have many more choices for switching and keypads. Maybe not a big deal if you only have a few loads in main areas, but if your whole home is controlled by a low voltage lighting system those choices may become much more important.


On a large lighting system, I'm going to tell you 'this is a job for a self contained lighting control system.' It's closed, communications on it's own bus, and size is not an issue. Vantage, Lutron, and Crestron's lighting systems are all very reliable and can handle just about any need you throw at it, any load type, etc. It will operate on its own processor, so if the LAN goes down it will not matter, your lights will still work. It will cost more, and the company installing it will make more margin, but the key difference is that confidence in the end result will be much higher. You, the user, want that confidence. If that confidence is based on experience, take heed. If the confidence is based on them just trying to get you to sign the contract and get the deposit, beware.


That C4 was not meant to conquer the 9,000sf home market does not mean it cannot be a good solution for you. Again, if you have a few/several audio zones, HVAC zones, and a SS system or two, 20 or so lighting loads, maybe some security integration, I have no doubts with C4. Make sure the C4 dealer does your network and is network competent (same with a Crestron dealer). Maybe you can stretch it further than that, and a C4 dealer who's done more C4 than me may vouch for that. I'm just a dude on the internet who's been in the biz for a long time. I'm not a Master Guru for both lines, but I have lot of experience with both, and a ton of experience in 2ksf homes, 9,000 sf plus, and much larger. This is my opinion, and I'm not a fanboi of either product line. I'm a fanboi of making sure clients have a positive outcome in their investment.


As I've said, there's no one simple reason to pick one over the other. If there was, you would have heard it by now.*Make sure you focus on the company more than the product line*. If you take anything away from this conversation, take that.


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## cntp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cshepard* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I said the programmer wasn't stellar. I don't think I implied that anything is or was wrong with Crestron.
> 
> 
> Perhaps the following statement will help get my point across: In my 8 years as a CI, I don't believe I've seen a Crestron system that "felt" like it was programmed 100% properly. To be fair, of, course, I've seen a few poorly programmed C4 systems--probably including the first two or three I programmed!



I just wanted to make sure it was clear for others, sorry if it felt like I was jumping on you.


And yes, in my opinion most Crestron programmers out there aren't very good. It is hurting Crestron's brand, and I think that is one reason why they are pushing SystemBuilder ("configuration" based programming, similar to C4 I believe, not sure) so much. Consequently, good and excellent programmers can be VERY expensive. I know about what our company charges, and it's not cheap, at all.


The biggest reason I would recommend someone get crestron over control 4 would be Digital Media. Other reasons would be if they were controlling a large system, wanted interfaces (remotes, touchscreens, etc) that C4 didn't offer, or wanted customization over their system.


If you're wanting to do HDMI distribution, go with Crestron. But make sure they are using DM, and a 3 series processor. Otherwise, if you like C4, go for it. If you are not thinking you want to expand your system in the future or want to customize it beyond what C4 allows, you shouldn't worry. If you think you want to expand it beyond C4s abilities, go with Crestron.


For me, DM alone is enough of a reason to go with Crestron. Don't let anyone talk you into component video distribution.


And if you do end up going with Crestron, I know a great programming company


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## cntp

Also a giant +1 to pretty much everything bigpapa said. I don't remember if you mentioned how large the home is.


As a side note, I really like Crestron's lighting products, and Lutron makes good stuff as well. I would take either one of those over Vantage, but that is mostly personal preference. If you are doing Crestron for everything else, Crestron lighting might make sense.



EDIT: Adter re-reading the earlier threads in this post, let me add: Your system would be pretty simple for a good Crestron programmer. Like I said before, I would go with Crestron just for for Digital Media HDMI distribution, if you want that.


EDIT #2: It shouldn't be hard for other systems to be close to Crestron 2 series on scalability. They run ColdFire processors that run at a few hundred MHz, maybe. The difference is Crestron can execute its programming very, very quickly. And, if you start hitting any limits, you can use another processor, or optimize your programming in various ways. I doubt C4 can employ similar techniques (if it can, someone please give me the heads up), so the question is how much can one processor handle.


And just because a dealer says "We do stuff like this all the time with no problems" doesn't mean it is true. Always get references. No good salesman is going to say "we have never done anything like this before"


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## cshepard

Just for argument's sake:


1) We have had no issues with HDMI distribution with C4 systems. We have used 4x4 and 8x8 matrices. (I will concede that, given the quirkiness of HDMI, luck may be a factor in this. I know Crestron DM is awesome.)


2) The new C4 HC-800 is pretty darn fast. I don't know how it compares to Crestron's processors though.


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## cntp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cshepard* /forum/post/21943358
> 
> 
> We have had no issues with HDMI distribution with C4 systems. We have used 4x4 and 8x8 matrices.



Other brands are getting much better and more affordable, especially in the 4x4 and 8x8 frame sizes. There are still plenty of them that are terrible (my boss has one at his house, lol)


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## Drew_W

And well...Just Add Power works perfectly within the C4 system as an unlimited any-size custom matrix.


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## cntp

I'm not sold on Just Add Power's products yet, but they are an attractive, relatively affordable solution. I just wish they knew how IP worked and implemented IGMP properly! But that is a common problem with a lot of A/V manufacturers (not knowing how to do IP properly, not specifically IGMP).


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## bigpapa

Just Add Power is not the same platform as DM, so it's not a direct comparison. There's also no succinct statement as to why one is superior over the others.


Sorta like Control 4 and Crestron.


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## Drew_W




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/21946164
> 
> 
> Just Add Power is not the same platform as DM, so it's not a direct comparison. There's also no succinct statement as to why one is superior over the others.
> 
> 
> Sorta like Control 4 and Crestron.



Exactly. Crestron has DM, Control4 has JAP as its "most similar to DM but totally not DM". Different systems. DM fanboys will say it is head and shoulders above everything else, but JAP works, and works well within C4.


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## javry




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mizzer-d* /forum/post/21939427
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand your mental dilemma as I went through this with projection screens. (I.e. Should I spend on the Stewart Firehawk or go with a less expensive Da-lite). You don't want regrets. Whatever you do make sure you're at peace with your decision before you commit and then don't look back. It's awful to think you would have preferred another option. (I do sometimes)
> 
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Dave



So if I were to sum this up, Shamoo1 is leaning toward C4 - for cost reasons obviously - but also because from his perspective, he can accomplish everything he wants to achieve with a C4 system - and if he were to go for the more expensive Crestron system, he would need to justify the cost difference - and he is seeking that justification on this thread.


So far the general comments have suggested that both C4 and Crestron are good for their own environments and that Shamoo1 probably won't go wrong with either. In short - no real persuasive argument hitting a solid home run in favor spending the extra money to go Crestron over C4. I'm not suggesting it isn't there - but merely that the argument for it hasn't been presented yet.


----------



## cshepard

The more important aspect of the OP's decision should be the worthiness of the CIs he's considering.


----------



## comptr

I have been reading this thread and this part of the forum and I am trying to find out up to what square foot does Control 4 work and at what square footage does Crestron work ?


----------



## cntp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *comptr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been reading this thread and this part of the forum and I am trying to find out up to what square foot does Control 4 work and at what square footage does Crestron work ?



It's less about square foot (except for wireless devices), and more about what you're controlling. I can't speak for C4, but Crestron can work for pretty much anything, assuming it is properly engineered and programmed.


----------



## ddave12000

I personally think that Crestron is overpriced and their user interfaces unattractive, but that's just my opinion. I also think the marketplace is over saturated with bad programmers who have given custom home automation a bad rap over the years. That being said, obviously Crestron is more than capable of getting the job done. But if it were me I'd go with the C4, but I'd make darn sure I trusted the integrator more than anything. Most integrators are selling the same products (more or less) and it's the process and the implementation that can make or break it for home owners.


----------



## comptr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cntp* /forum/post/21955663
> 
> 
> It's less about square foot (except for wireless devices), and more about what you're controlling. I can't speak for C4, but Crestron can work for pretty much anything, assuming it is properly engineered and programmed.



The main problem for me is budget I want to have whole house video distribution, whole house audio and hvac control. Prewire will not factor into my budget as I am looking at new built homes unless I can find a older home that fits my needs and budget. I also want the whole house video distribution to be via HDMI instead of component.


----------



## cshepard

About 3 months ago we finished a house in the 8000sf range with Control4. 27 seperate audio zones. 8 HD video zones (HDBaseT HDMI via Atlona matrix). 5 T-stats. About 2 dozen light loads & more to come. Security, irrigation, & doorbell integration. 12 surveillance cams. Zero issues other than a C4 iPod dock with faulty power supply.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddave12000* /forum/post/21955991
> 
> 
> I personally think that Crestron is overpriced and their user interfaces unattractive, but that's just my opinion. I also think the marketplace is over saturated with bad programmers who have given custom home automation a bad rap over the years. That being said, obviously Crestron is more than capable of getting the job done. But if it were me I'd go with the C4, but I'd make darn sure I trusted the integrator more than anything. Most integrators are selling the same products (more or less) and it's the process and the implementation that can make or break it for home owners.



I would add that automation gets a bad rap from bad custom installers as much as if not more than bad programmers.


All manufacturers will have a dog device they sell here or there, or put it to market too soon and let the clients and installers beta test it when it's sold as ready for market. All of them do it. But that's the exception, not the rule. A good installation company not only understands this but never forgets it.


The vast majority of times that a client is left unsatisfied or frustrated is because of the installing company, in design, sales, setting of expectations, or execution. Sometimes all of those reasons.


The manufacturers market to both dealers and the potential end users. They want you to buy their boxes. They want to influence you by building their brand awareness. My advice as somebody in the biz is to really focus on the installing company and their professionalism. That's the largest factor in influencing outcome and satisfaction of a project. Good companies will focus more on selling you their service and dedication to the scope of the project, and less on selling you equipment, or this manufacturer or that manufacturer.


Manufacturers want installers to evangelize their products and sell them to the end user, just short of advocating for them. The good companies advocate for the client and act in their best interest, not the manufacturers. It's for this reason I shy away from using the term 'dealer.' I am not a dealer, I'm a systems contractor. I don't sell Crestron or C4, I design and install HA or audio/video systems. The fact that one may be C4 or Crestron is of secondary importance.


In the end, it's a whirling dervish to focus too much on which is better, C4 or Crestron. It's not paying attention to more important factors. Simple assessments such as 'C4 can, Crestron can, therefore Crestron overpriced' make good fodder for geeks like us on forums but its a somewhat simplistic notion that doesn't really address more important thoughts such as 'I need to do this/this/this, will this work and work well?' It's possible both will do x, and maybe one will do x better than the other. But extrapolate that evaluation 50 or 100 times when considering a project.


But it makes good forum fodder and occasionally makes a decent flame war, so carry on










As a side note, Crestron does not make user interfaces, programmers do. C4 does make its own user interface, so on that level its more consistent. In many cases, that may be a good thing or a benefit, especially to cost if the system is not too large or has too many features.


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cshepard* /forum/post/21956340
> 
> 
> About 3 months ago we finished a house in the 8000sf range with Control4. 27 seperate audio zones. 8 HD video zones (HDBaseT HDMI via Atlona matrix). 5 T-stats. About 2 dozen light loads & more to come. Security, irrigation, & doorbell integration. 12 surveillance cams. Zero issues other than a C4 iPod dock with faulty power supply.



I'm finishing up a 9,500sf home with a smaller system, 12 zones of Crestron as audio only with a surround sound/video wall. Apart from a custom UI to make video wall control easy, C4 could have done this project just as well.


Square footage doesn't mean much, it's the size of and complexity of the systems and various sub systems which create deciding factors.


----------



## ddave12000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/21957599
> 
> 
> I would add that automation gets a bad rap from bad custom installers as much as if not more than bad programmers.



Agreed, and that's essentially what I was trying to say.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigpapa* /forum/post/21957599
> 
> 
> As a side note, Crestron does not make user interfaces, programmers do. C4 does make its own user interface, so on that level its more consistent. In many cases, that may be a good thing or a benefit, especially to cost if the system is not too large or has too many features.



I was actually talking about the physical devices themselves, not the GUI.


----------



## cntp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddave12000* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was actually talking about the physical devices themselves, not the GUI.



To each his own I guess, I find the physical devices very attractive (most recent products anyway, there are defiantly some old ones that needed help!)


----------



## bigpapa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddave12000* /forum/post/21957815
> 
> 
> I was actually talking about the physical devices themselves, not the GUI.



Ha, well, I'm not sure either wins out by too much. Older Crestron panels were clunky, APAD's look like Home Depot. AMX's 8400 WiFi TP's are big and heavy. C4's first 7" Wireless TP was a dog, but the new 5-10" inwalls look pretty clean.


All lines are getting slicker. They got nothing on iPads, but they're closing the gap.


----------



## 39CentStamp

Things cost what they cost. If your control4 quote is less than your crestron quote i would wager that the two systems being quoted are different.


Speakers, TVs, Wire, Blu-ray players, racks, TV mounts, patch cables, HDMI cables etc...these items will be exactly the same in both systems. The difference between the systems will be the control processor, AV switchers and various black boxes to make the system work.


Create a feature list and get an apples to apples quote from the Crestron/C4 dealer and see what the differences are. "30-40% difference" from a meeting in the demo room sounds a whole lot like they are trying to convince you to choose C4 over Crestron. It simply isnt possible and i challenge anyone to prove me wrong. (dont bother showing me remote+processor costs. I am talking about a system that would work in the 9000 sqft project from the OP)


Programming costs are typically higher for Crestron because there isnt a boxed set of widgets or a fixed GUI. Your intercom doesnt have to operate exactly the way it does out of the box with crestron (for example). With C4 it does. Control4 does what it does. Crestron does what you want it to do.


To many people these differences in feature set are not worth the additional cost. To some these differences are as important as purchasing a Cadillac vs a Chevy or a Lexus over a Toyota. At the end of the day both systems can be used for automation and audio video distribution. As stated above there are pros and cons with each platform. The one thing i can guarantee after being in this industry for 18 years. The MOST IMPORTANT thing you can do for your family and your 9000 sq ft house is to choose the right integrator.


Ask for portfolio photos to see examples of their work. Ask for examples of the documentation for the wiring and component connections that they will generate for your home. Ask to tour their recently completed project/s and look at the rack wiring. Install look neat? Anyone can make a TV look nice...look behind the TV and see how the wiring looks. Companies who neatly tie up the hidden stuff are putting more spit and polish into everything else. This is what their wiring should look like http://wiremunky.com/?cat=8&paged=2 ... not like this http://www.vibrant.com/cable-messes.php .


Dont listen to the sales pitch (especially ones where dealers quote 30-40% difference on a system that hasnt even been planned yet). Ask them to prove to you that they can do what they say they can do. Provide them with a wish list and realistic budget and let them get to work.


----------



## FoxSecurity

Both are great although i'm not a Crestron dealer I have watched the installation and programming of their stuff and yes it is very customizable and there are more possibilities with it when it comes the GUI's being custom vs fixed. I personally love Control4. I've done some pretty large homes using C4 and the only issues ive had were due to netowkring equipment (cheap PoE switches and routers) also had some issues updating one of the C4 speakerpoints but i figured it out and it wasn't the end of the world. Like the post above mine says, the most important thing you can do is choose the right integrator, one that will know where costs can and definitely cannot be cut. If designed and planned out properly i dont think there is a limit on square footage (within reason of course) in regards to both systems. The Aria in Vegas uses C4 in its suites however im not sure if its one system or split by units/floors/sections, I'm actually curious. Im not here to push C4 but im very happy I became a dealer and its the best system I've worked with in our 25 years in the field.


----------



## RaCTN

I'm interested to know who the Crestron dealer is with a bad showroom program/design?

Please message me off the forum - [email protected]


----------



## MMMorish

I'm just a noob here but I stayed at the Aria City Center in Las Vegas and their entire hotel was wired with Control4. I'm pretty sure that hotel is larger than 9000sq/f.


----------



## SweetSpot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MMMorish*  /t/1406303/control-4-vs-crestron/30#post_22194750
> 
> 
> I'm just a noob here but I stayed at the Aria City Center in Las Vegas and their entire hotel was wired with Control4. I'm pretty sure that hotel is larger than 9000sq/f.



The guest suites at Aria all have Control4 systems that basically stand alone, so it's more appropriate to think of the system as 4000 x 500sq/ft as it includes ONLY the guest suites. The remainder of the hotel (front-of-house, back-of-house, convention and meeting spaces, casino, etc.) is integrated with Crestron and their RoomView facility management platform.


----------



## alcoopee

I am wondering which system you decided to go with? I am also deciding b/w C4 and Crestron for a 9k sq foot new construction home and have similar concerns to you. Would love to hear how you ended up and if you are happy with the outcome? Thank you!


----------



## Rafflesnoot

A friend of mine went with Crestron for his 10,000 square foot house. He is very pleased with his after 3 years of very few issues.


I, on the other hand, went with Control4 in my 11,000 square foot house. After spending over $100,000 on the products and installation, I've had no more than 3 months at a time without issues.


Based only on this knowledge, I recommend Crestron...


----------



## Travisleo

At RSI, we are dealers for Control4, Savant, Crestron and AMX. Here's a quick write up we did on the pros and cons of Savant vs. Control4. I would put Crestron in the same category as Savant.

http://www.residentialsystemsinc.com/control4-vs-savant-for-todays-smart-home/ 


Travis Leo


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Travisleo*  /t/1406303/control-4-vs-crestron/30#post_22589740
> 
> 
> At RSI, we are dealers for Control4, Savant, Crestron and AMX. Here's a quick write up we did on the pros and cons of Savant vs. Control4. I would put Crestron in the same category as Savant.
> 
> 
> Travis Leo


Likewise, our company is a dealer for Crestron, AMX, Savant, and Elon G. Yet, our experience is so different than yours. To wit, you start your write up with:

_'At Residential Systems, Inc. one of the most common questions our clients ask us is “What are the major differences between Control4 and Savant and which should I use in my house?”_


Brand awareness of control systems is next to zero in our customer base and I think in general. The only exception is Crestron which usually comes in the form of dissatisfaction from a previous install. The reason for this is mostly due to high popularity of Crestron and difficulty in programming it. So bad installs tend to be more popular there than others.


I also don't see affinity with customer being familiar with Apple products being a driver to propose Savant. The fact that Savant is Mac based is hidden from the customer. It is not like they can run MacOS apps on it and such. Savant is an easy to program control system and together with Crestron are the main two with a high-performance and fast HDMI switchers. That is the reason to recommend it.


----------



## Travisleo

Amirm,


That's very interesting. We actually have clients asking for Savant products by name. I agree that Creston is the most well known but Savant is quickly catching on and they are doing a great job of marketing themselves to create client awareness.


Do you have ANYONE ask for AMX systems at all?


Travis


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Travisleo*  /t/1406303/control-4-vs-crestron/30#post_22605841
> 
> 
> Amirm,
> 
> That's very interesting. We actually have clients asking for Savant products by name. I agree that Creston is the most well known but Savant is quickly catching on and they are doing a great job of marketing themselves to create client awareness.
> 
> Do you have ANYONE ask for AMX systems at all?
> 
> Travis


We also get occasional request for Savant by name. As a percentage of our installs though, that statistics remains small. And no, there is no one asking for AMX.


----------



## trs80model1

Crestron, Control4, AMX, Savant: From A tech savvy end user with multiple systems and deep experience in the industry.


This post is primarily about my experiences with Control4 and Crestron and to a lesser extent AMX. There are MEANINGFUL differences between Control4 and the higher end vendors that have not been captured in any reviews I've noted.


(For you systems types Control4 is like software as a service and the other vendors are like high end enterprise software solutions.)


I will add more detail over time if requested


Background:


I've run home automation systems in my homes since the early 1990's. I've had AMX systems in 3 homes and was pretty involved with the company management from the time they came public until Scott Miller had too many Heinikens and was replaced. Subsequently, and probably as a result of management changes and being taken over by a private equity firm they seem to have dropped off of the commercial/residential controls radar.


I currently have one Crestron system in one home and it has been extremely stable/fast and hard to update and program.


I am in the later stages of a replacement of one of my AMX systems with a Control4 system. I will separate my observations from the massive system failures on my control4 and presume they are resolvable. (It is possible my c4 system will be thrown out.)


I am also in the planning stages for a very large, very high end system and I am pre-wiring to be vendor independent. I'm not particularly fond of any of the providers.


While cost is an issue, the central issue is your integrator and integrators tend to be small businesses that don't scale that well. The business is a hard business with lots of customization, a model that's hard to scale and a lot dependent on the quality of the integrator.


Control4:


Predesigned UI, limited customization. Simpler to install. Unclear to me now, but it is possible that switching integrators may be much easier, and that is very important to keep in mind. It is reasonably likely your system will outlive your integrator.


Lower Costs (yes devices are a little cheaper, but in the end hardware is only a fraction of total system costs.) Programming is easier.


Because there is less customization, having a Control4 will likely make it MUCH easier for you to add/integrate new features. Who knows what new devices are going to crop up that you'd want to integrate/control? With Control4, it's a simple upgrade/update. With Crestron and the other high end vendors, call out the phalanx of programmers and the checkbook.


Cons:


Control4 DOES NOT have full communication with Lutron for status of lighting scenes. If you set a Lutron scene, Control 4 will pass the signal, but not reflect the status! (it does show status on individual fixtures. This creates issues for reliability and remote management. Yes, C4 provides status via it's own panelized lighting system, nbut I would not hardwire any vendor's proprietary lighting system.


Newest touch panels from Control4 do not have iPad like scrolling/swiping. This makes list navigation very annoying. The panels are attractive but are unimpressive to use.


Control4 is SLOW in command and response. Not unacceptable, just slow. There is a meaningful lag after issuing a command and getting a response.


Crestron:


Pros:


Complete control over UI: But much more lanbor intensive to implement and program.


Bi directional control of Lutron and other lighting systems.


Very high performance, instant control/response over subsystems.


The 300 to 500 milisecond delay on control4 may not bother you, but when you've had a higher end system it is distracting.


Once properly deployed, Crestron has been very reliable.


Conclusion:


With a high end budget, I would lean towards Crestron, but with budget and integrator concerns in mind I would consider Control4. I am undecided which direction to head on my next project. Reliability is critical and Control4 has been a problem, but I think it can be resolved.


AMX seems to be out of the running. I dislike Savant's Apple centric architecture, becuase I worry about how Apple will develop OSX over time, it may not evolve in a way that helps the home automation business. I do hear that Savant is the only vendor with a decent intercom system.



As you can imagine, I can add a bit more detail, I will happily respond to any questions.


My Advice: Be skeptical of any vendor's proprietary lighting system, go with Lutron. Prewire to be vendor independent. Otherwise you are stuck and it may impact resale value of your home or leave you locked in to a specific dealer.


----------



## Neurorad

You say you would not hardwire any vendor's proprietary lighting system, but you would with Lutron?


If you mean a system with home-runned loads, aren't there several manufacturers to choose from, for replacement? IIRC, Crestron, Lutron, Centralite, C4, and Vantage all offer a similar product.


----------



## trs80model1

All the vendors use a similar home run wiring architecture, I'm talking about designing my wiring in a way that limits my dependence on a specific vendor. I've been using Lutron for over a decade and in over 5 homes and have NEVER had a single failure of any kind. So since the bug players all integrate with Lutron, using Lutron as my shade/lighting backbone makes me less dependent on any automation front end. That said, as more data comes in I lean more and more towards Crestron and disposing of my control4.


----------



## ibdoomed

I just want to corroborate with others that there is virtually no cost difference hardware wise between control4 and crestron. I recently checked on a cp3 versus an hc-250 and while the hc-250 is $250 cheaper, if you need more than 2 or 3 serial ports (I needed 5) with both your going to need extenders which brings both to exactly the same price (adding an st-com and a c4-iox-e-b respectively). If you start looking at the hc-800, that's a heck of a lot more expensive than a cp3.


----------



## gadgetfreaky




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trs80model1*  /t/1406303/control-4-vs-crestron/30#post_23287225
> 
> 
> Crestron, Control4, AMX, Savant: From A tech savvy end user with multiple systems and deep experience in the industry.
> 
> 
> This post is primarily about my experiences with Control4 and Crestron and to a lesser extent AMX. There are MEANINGFUL differences between Control4 and the higher end vendors that have not been captured in any reviews I've noted.
> 
> 
> (For you systems types Control4 is like software as a service and the other vendors are like high end enterprise software solutions.)
> 
> 
> I will add more detail over time if requested
> 
> 
> Background:
> 
> 
> I've run home automation systems in my homes since the early 1990's. I've had AMX systems in 3 homes and was pretty involved with the company management from the time they came public until Scott Miller had too many Heinikens and was replaced. Subsequently, and probably as a result of management changes and being taken over by a private equity firm they seem to have dropped off of the commercial/residential controls radar.
> 
> 
> I currently have one Crestron system in one home and it has been extremely stable/fast and hard to update and program.
> 
> 
> I am in the later stages of a replacement of one of my AMX systems with a Control4 system. I will separate my observations from the massive system failures on my control4 and presume they are resolvable. (It is possible my c4 system will be thrown out.)
> 
> 
> I am also in the planning stages for a very large, very high end system and I am pre-wiring to be vendor independent. I'm not particularly fond of any of the providers.
> 
> 
> While cost is an issue, the central issue is your integrator and integrators tend to be small businesses that don't scale that well. The business is a hard business with lots of customization, a model that's hard to scale and a lot dependent on the quality of the integrator.
> 
> 
> Control4:
> 
> 
> Predesigned UI, limited customization. Simpler to install. Unclear to me now, but it is possible that switching integrators may be much easier, and that is very important to keep in mind. It is reasonably likely your system will outlive your integrator.
> 
> 
> Lower Costs (yes devices are a little cheaper, but in the end hardware is only a fraction of total system costs.) Programming is easier.
> 
> 
> Because there is less customization, having a Control4 will likely make it MUCH easier for you to add/integrate new features. Who knows what new devices are going to crop up that you'd want to integrate/control? With Control4, it's a simple upgrade/update. With Crestron and the other high end vendors, call out the phalanx of programmers and the checkbook.
> 
> 
> Cons:
> 
> 
> Control4 DOES NOT have full communication with Lutron for status of lighting scenes. If you set a Lutron scene, Control 4 will pass the signal, but not reflect the status! (it does show status on individual fixtures. This creates issues for reliability and remote management. Yes, C4 provides status via it's own panelized lighting system, nbut I would not hardwire any vendor's proprietary lighting system.
> 
> 
> Newest touch panels from Control4 do not have iPad like scrolling/swiping. This makes list navigation very annoying. The panels are attractive but are unimpressive to use.
> 
> 
> Control4 is SLOW in command and response. Not unacceptable, just slow. There is a meaningful lag after issuing a command and getting a response.
> 
> 
> Crestron:
> 
> 
> Pros:
> 
> 
> Complete control over UI: But much more lanbor intensive to implement and program.
> 
> 
> Bi directional control of Lutron and other lighting systems.
> 
> 
> Very high performance, instant control/response over subsystems.
> 
> 
> The 300 to 500 milisecond delay on control4 may not bother you, but when you've had a higher end system it is distracting.
> 
> 
> Once properly deployed, Crestron has been very reliable.
> 
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> 
> With a high end budget, I would lean towards Crestron, but with budget and integrator concerns in mind I would consider Control4. I am undecided which direction to head on my next project. Reliability is critical and Control4 has been a problem, but I think it can be resolved.
> 
> 
> AMX seems to be out of the running. I dislike Savant's Apple centric architecture, becuase I worry about how Apple will develop OSX over time, it may not evolve in a way that helps the home automation business. I do hear that Savant is the only vendor with a decent intercom system.
> 
> 
> 
> As you can imagine, I can add a bit more detail, I will happily respond to any questions.
> 
> 
> My Advice: Be skeptical of any vendor's proprietary lighting system, go with Lutron. Prewire to be vendor independent. Otherwise you are stuck and it may impact resale value of your home or leave you locked in to a specific dealer.




if i wanted to eventually do control4. what lighting system now would you recommend? I didn't realize control4 and lutron didn't play well together


----------



## westcojack

We are large Vantage Controls dealers on the west coast.

Most of our projects use Crestron or AMX as their overall control system, and Vantage for their lighting controls.

These Crestron dealers like the Vantage equipment as well as the easy programming interface, better than the Crestron equipment.

In addition to being somewhat less expensive, I believe it is also much easier to install.


+1 +1 +1...... to all of the above comments that the top priority should be the programmer and his/her GUI. A badly programmed non- intuititave system no matter what you pay for it, is worthless.


----------



## mawilla


Really interesting read of this post.  I have  Crestron system, as far as the hardware goes, it is OK - not rock solid as many profess.  I have had to replace 4 Touchscreens, 4 or 5 dimmers and have had to reset the hardware on the processor countless times.  This IMO does not make a rock solid system.  The other big issue is that if you get a substandard programmer (like I had) who tells you Crestron is flexible and can do everything, they can often over promise and under deliver. 

I am now in the process of debating with myself whether to reprogram the system with another Crestron programmer, or bite the bullet and go down the C4 route.  I'm loathed to do either if I'm honest, but the system hasn't worked properly from day 1 (some 6/7 years ago!).  So what choice do I have?  Learn something new or risk the reprogram?

 

As far as the original dealer, they are still around, but I don't want to use them anymore as they seem to create more problems for me, but if they were to go under and I had to find another dealer, most I imagine would say they couldn't take responsibility for the program and would suggest a new one anyway. 

 

I feel as though I'm damned either way!!

 

I'm about to embark on a new build and I think I might stick with a TV and a remote - pure and simple, never went wrong for me before!!


----------



## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mawilla*  /t/1406303/control-4-vs-crestron/30#post_23934480
> 
> 
> Really interesting read of this post.  I have  Crestron system, as far as the hardware goes, it is OK - not rock solid as many profess.  I have had to replace 4 Touchscreens, 4 or 5 dimmers and have had to reset the hardware on the processor countless times.  This IMO does not make a rock solid system.  The other big issue is that if you get a substandard programmer (like I had) who tells you Crestron is flexible and can do everything, they can often over promise and under deliver.
> 
> 
> 
> I am now in the process of debating with myself whether to reprogram the system with another Crestron programmer, or bite the bullet and go down the C4 route.  I'm loathed to do either if I'm honest, but the system hasn't worked properly from day 1 (some 6/7 years ago!).  So what choice do I have?  Learn something new or risk the reprogram?
> 
> 
> As far as the original dealer, they are still around, but I don't want to use them anymore as they seem to create more problems for me, but if they were to go under and I had to find another dealer, most I imagine would say they couldn't take responsibility for the program and would suggest a new one anyway.
> 
> 
> I feel as though I'm damned either way!!
> 
> 
> I'm about to embark on a new build and I think I might stick with a TV and a remote - pure and simple, never went wrong for me before!!


I will say that Crestron is certainly not bullet proof and it has a significant amount to do with not only the programmer, but the engineer. The design of the system matters and can't just be thrown together as Crestron has many products which are phenomenal, and many products which are mediocre. Certainly a good lighting control system can be had from other vendors with similar, or better results, or perhaps something was done improperly within your setup to cause failure. But, a good engineer can come into your home, review the installation work, and give you some serious direction about where you should go with honest information.


I've had several customers who were ready to give up on their system (Crestron), but it was actually the original wiring which was causing them the most grief, and rewiring the racks to create a more stable environment allowed them to go from a system which had headaches to one which was far more stable. But, it so truly depends on the equipment selected, and often people will say that they want something very specific, and that product proves to be a really lousy product that doesn't integrate well. By all means, ask on the forums as well if you have some specific questions (start your own topic if necessary). Most people do like C4, but if things start getting complex, C4 can't handle it. It is much more of a fixed solution system that can't handle variances which are 'outside the box'. Crestron definitely can handle it, but the programmer has to be able to deliver, which simply isn't always the case, as it seems you have already discovered.


A good installation shop will have a Crestron programmer who works for them and comes on site and talks to you about your needs. I've been doing this for over ten years and the difference I see between on-site programmers and remote programmers is night and day in terms of quality.


But, even the ones who go on site aren't always all they are cracked up to be.


----------



## Neurorad

If I needed Crestron programmed professionally, and money was no object, I'd hire a Crestron programming firm where the guys do nothing but design and programming of HA systems. Those who do 1 thing can get very good at it, like in specialized medicine.


Some of the best installers use these national and international programming and design firms, developing good working relationships.


However, it may be challenging for the average homeowner to work directly with these firms. There is usually a knowledgeable installer acting as the middleman, to work out the hardware.


Your local installer may be able to sub out the programming (and system design) to one of these companies.


Usually very expensive, for specialized expertise.


----------



## WiredNuts




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad*  /t/1406303/control-4-vs-crestron/30#post_23941584
> 
> 
> If I needed Crestron programmed professionally, and money was no object, I'd hire a Crestron programming firm where the guys do nothing but design and programming of HA systems. Those who do 1 thing can get very good at it, like in specialized medicine.
> 
> 
> Some of the best installers use these national and international programming and design firms, developing good working relationships.
> 
> 
> However, it may be challenging for the average homeowner to work directly with these firms. There is usually a knowledgeable installer acting as the middleman, to work out the hardware.
> 
> 
> Your local installer may be able to sub out the programming (and system design) to one of these companies.
> 
> 
> Usually very expensive, for specialized expertise.


Yes... your local dealer should have someone with the proper knowledge program you Crestron system if they are not able too. I disagree however about HA firms.  Being more than proficient in the ares that are under your systems control is the best way to do quality automation.  To be able to totally own the system should always be a positive for the client and dealer. A HA company should be a one stop shop.

 

Also, Control4 is capable of any HA system. 2k, 8k 16k sq ft... doesnt matter. Especially with it's newest products and panalized lighting, its a better option just based on cost alone.  The only real downfall is that lack of customization.. that for the most part is still irrelevant. A lot of custom interfaces look very bad and are confusing and cluttered.  These systems are supposed to simplify... and Control4s interface does great at that. Streamline no matter which interface you use.  Most poor experiences with C4 systems are on the installation and conception end.


----------



## MillPhoto

I see this topic has been idle a while but I'd like to ask couple of questions. I am looking at both for a DIY solution in my home. Building custom control programs is not an issue (I build software professionally) but I'm not looking to create something overly complex that requires a bunch of time to manage. When done, it needs to just work.


1. I have some Crestron devices but am extremely unhappy with the Crestron customization tools. I have access to all the Crestron tools and have worked a bit to customize a test panel I built but it seems to me they made this way more complex than it has to be. It is not at all straight forward and Crestron pricing is steep. I currently have an MC3 processor with a bunch of dimmers and keypads. Everything Zigbee. Anyway to use these devices with a Control 4 controller? I'm doing advanced lighting and some AV control; nothing too fancy (dim lights when starting movie for instance). Which of the many Crestron tools do you find the most useful for situations like this?


2. Swapping for Control 4 is still an option. The control/programming tools seem more intuitive and there seems to be enough capability there to do what I need. My recent stay at Aria makes me seriously doubt Control 4 as a platform though. The automation experience in that hotel is simply horrible. The bed-side panel is virtually worthless due to latency and in many cases multiple button presses were required to get something to work. I ended up abandoning the panel and just using the wall switches because they were at least more reliable although still slow. If this is typical of Control 4 then I have my answer. Similar experience with Crestron-controlled rooms (Revel) was MUCH better. Aria is using tech that's a couple years old so maybe things are better now?


Thanks in advance for any additional helpful advice.


----------



## ezlotogura

I've heard aria got a deal on older c4 hardware that was being phased out. It's a poor reflection on the product.


Control4 is not super DIY. You can program but cannot add hardware. You need a dealer to add hardware.


----------



## SMHarman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Drew_W*  /t/1406303/control-4-vs-crestron#post_21944746
> 
> 
> And well...Just Add Power works perfectly within the C4 system as an unlimited any-size custom matrix.


Videostorm NetPlay recently released and getting love in the C4 space is another good contender.


----------



## TigerH1

Crestron is AWFUL!!!


After 3 1/2 years of pathetic service and 4 different programmers our $150k Crestron Boat Anchor pile of garbage is worthless. It never worked correctly, and even when Crestron sent programmers from their regional HQ's from out of state to work on this system they still could not get a very simple system to work. We asked for lighting control, HVAC, House Sound, and TV Controls. What we got was a lighting system that was a fire hazard, HVAC running wild driving up our power bills, and horribly sporadic control of the sound systems and TV's, with horribly non responsive unreliable controls. Our iPads are the only control interfaces that were worth having!


YES installers make a difference and yes programmers make a difference, but apparently Crestron does not adequately Vet their retailers and uses them as an excuse to allow them to claim their systems are the best, but hey you could get a bad sales man or programmer. That is pathetic, and is the opposite of customer service! Crestron claims they are not at fault for allowing non certified companies to sell their products without adequate knowledge regarding how to design and install their systems, and that is absolutely ridiculous. Crestron claims their systems are the most flexible and able to do a lot of things, but I have yet to see their systems work correctly. "Programming" is a cop out for Crestron and Crestron Dealers.....


SHAME ON CRESTRON........BUY ANYTHING ELSE.......


----------



## DaveChester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TigerH1*  /t/1406303/control-4-vs-crestron/60#post_24813057
> 
> 
> Crestron is AWFUL!!!
> 
> 
> After 3 1/2 years of pathetic service and 4 different programmers our $150k Crestron Boat Anchor pile of garbage is worthless. It never worked correctly, and even when Crestron sent programmers from their regional HQ's from out of state to work on this system they still could not get a very simple system to work. We asked for lighting control, HVAC, House Sound, and TV Controls. What we got was a lighting system that was a fire hazard, HVAC running wild driving up our power bills, and horribly sporadic control of the sound systems and TV's, with horribly non responsive unreliable controls. Our iPads are the only control interfaces that were worth having!
> 
> 
> YES installers make a difference and yes programmers make a difference, but apparently Crestron does not adequately Vet their retailers and uses them as an excuse to allow them to claim their systems are the best, but hey you could get a bad sales man or programmer. That is pathetic, and is the opposite of customer service! Crestron claims they are not at fault for allowing non certified companies to sell their products without adequate knowledge regarding how to design and install their systems, and that is absolutely ridiculous. Crestron claims their systems are the most flexible and able to do a lot of things, but I have yet to see their systems work correctly. "Programming" is a cop out for Crestron and Crestron Dealers.....
> 
> 
> SHAME ON CRESTRON........BUY ANYTHING ELSE.......



That is a real shame. I feel for you and do share some of your views about letting anyone sell their kit.


Do you have wiring schematics and the program for your place? I'd be happy to review free of any charge to see if there is anything obvious which could be done? I'm in the UK so am not touting for work I just hate to see someone with such a bad experience when I know systems should and can work properly.


I think the contact details are in my profile if you are interested.


----------



## OzHDHT

Just stumbled upon the thread. I just had a control 4 system put into a new HT/mediaroom and living room TV/hifi a few weeks ago. So far I'm not really big on it at all, it just seems way too dumbed down and locked off(and dealer configured) for the advanced HT enthusiast to enjoy using. I keep having to get the installers back just to add new sources and macros with their laptop programming software, only to discover there's still missing functionality. Plus, the default towards not having direct replication of factory remotes built in is annoying, particularly when adjusting units like projectors. I keep having to reach for the factory remotes I find to do what I need. The control 4 seems to work great when I got the installers to 'idiot' test it with my much less savvy friend who will have access to the place from time to time. To me Control 4 feels like a 'hotel remote', where they don't want you touching anything in the system other than have the most basic controls at hand. I get more satisfaction out of the Harmony Ultimate system that runs my main HT room not at that location. On the flip side I bumped into my buddy yesterday who had whole house Crestron put in recently and was talking about the superb whole house control, using the 'go to bed' macro as an example of how well it functions. I know that Control 4 has a lighting control feature(which the 'tight-arse' builder of my new 3 level apartment chose not to install a lighting system to be able to control) and more home automation in it but apart from that it just seems to be far more rudimentary, boring remote, and somewhat narrow in ultimate functionality. My feeling is if your going to have a more over-arching control system in house, then you might as well go for Crestron.


----------



## SMHarman

OzHDHT said:


> Just stumbled upon the thread. I just had a control 4 system put into a new HT/mediaroom and living room TV/hifi a few weeks ago. So far I'm not really big on it at all, it just seems way too dumbed down and locked off(and dealer configured) for the advanced HT enthusiast to enjoy using. I keep having to get the installers back just to add new sources and macros with their laptop programming software, only to discover there's still missing functionality.


While you will need to get the dealer back to add new sources (or at least to remote in to the system to do this if you connect them up so the system can discover them)
You can write your own macros and laptop programming software with Composer Home Edition (CHE)
http://www.control4.com/products/software/composer-home-edition
*Control4® Composer Home Edition*

*Manage and personalize your Control4 system*


Your System, Your Way. Set LED colors on lights and keypads, lighting levels, dimming speeds, thermostat schedule and custom one-touch buttons. 
Personalized Entertainment. Easily manage your digital music and DVD collections with custom or automatically imported cover art, personal playlists and media sources. 
Remote Management. Create email notifications for certain events, like when the doors are left open during the day or the water sensor in the basement is activated. 
Lighting Scenes. Create and modify lighting, wake up and good night scenes that are customized especially for you. 
Event Control. Use the Scheduler to program automatic events, like the exterior lights turn on at sunset and off at daybreak.



OzHDHT said:


> Plus, the default towards not having direct replication of factory remotes built in is annoying, particularly when adjusting units like projectors. I keep having to reach for the factory remotes I find to do what I need. The control 4 seems to work great when I got the installers to 'idiot' test it with my much less savvy friend who will have access to the place from time to time. To me Control 4 feels like a 'hotel remote', where they don't want you touching anything in the system other than have the most basic controls at hand. I get more satisfaction out of the Harmony Ultimate system that runs my main HT room not at that location.


 You have the 4 color buttons on the remote to add functionality you might need as a user function. Each of those would play out a macro of your choosing. Furthermore, proper programming should be setting that functionality automagically when you select a specific source for example. Maybe projector aspect ratios or modes etc.


OzHDHT said:


> On the flip side I bumped into my buddy yesterday who had whole house Crestron put in recently and was talking about the superb whole house control, using the 'go to bed' macro as an example of how well it functions.


A go to bed macro is pretty easy to program with CHE. Also a keypad by the front door with a house off button is nice. All of this can be done in Composer Home and assigned to keypads, buttons on remotes etc.


OzHDHT said:


> I know that Control 4 has a lighting control feature(which the 'tight-arse' builder of my new 3 level apartment chose not to install a lighting system to be able to control) and more home automation in it but apart from that it just seems to be far more rudimentary, boring remote, and somewhat narrow in ultimate functionality. My feeling is if your going to have a more over-arching control system in house, then you might as well go for Crestron.


Control4 lighting is retrofittable very easily. I would not call the builder tight arsed, the switches are $130-$200 each so putting them in on the offchance the buyer decides to go with Control4 is a pretty big ask. Do you have any automatic control of lighting already. If for example your builder put in Lutron Radio RA then they can be added to your Control4 system easily.
Your buddy with Crestron has had it properly professionally programmed, any macro changes he wants will also need to be programmed and compiled.
Control4 allows you to do this yourself if you wish. Good luck, I hope you work through this and get to a place the Control 4 system is doing what you want. How much did your Crestron buddy pay? How much have you invested so far. You should be able to switch out the light switches for Control4 
http://www.control4.com/products/lighting
and get the functionality you want programmed (or do it yourself) pretty easy drag and drop programming interface, or pay your dealer, or use a dealer that works remotely (google neil12011) and email him for example and get what you want.


----------



## OzHDHT

SMHarman said:


> While you will need to get the dealer back to add new sources (or at least to remote in to the system to do this if you connect them up so the system can discover them)
> You can write your own macros and laptop programming software with Composer Home Edition (CHE)
> http://www.control4.com/products/software/composer-home-edition
> *Control4® Composer Home Edition*
> 
> *Manage and personalize your Control4 system*
> 
> 
> Your System, Your Way. Set LED colors on lights and keypads, lighting levels, dimming speeds, thermostat schedule and custom one-touch buttons.
> Personalized Entertainment. Easily manage your digital music and DVD collections with custom or automatically imported cover art, personal playlists and media sources.
> Remote Management. Create email notifications for certain events, like when the doors are left open during the day or the water sensor in the basement is activated.
> Lighting Scenes. Create and modify lighting, wake up and good night scenes that are customized especially for you.
> Event Control. Use the Scheduler to program automatic events, like the exterior lights turn on at sunset and off at daybreak.
> You have the 4 color buttons on the remote to add functionality you might need as a user function. Each of those would play out a macro of your choosing. Furthermore, proper programming should be setting that functionality automagically when you select a specific source for example. Maybe projector aspect ratios or modes etc.A go to bed macro is pretty easy to program with CHE. Also a keypad by the front door with a house off button is nice. All of this can be done in Composer Home and assigned to keypads, buttons on remotes etc.
> 
> Control4 lighting is retrofittable very easily. I would not call the builder tight arsed, the switches are $130-$200 each so putting them in on the offchance the buyer decides to go with Control4 is a pretty big ask. Do you have any automatic control of lighting already. If for example your builder put in Lutron Radio RA then they can be added to your Control4 system easily.
> Your buddy with Crestron has had it properly professionally programmed, any macro changes he wants will also need to be programmed and compiled.
> Control4 allows you to do this yourself if you wish. Good luck, I hope you work through this and get to a place the Control 4 system is doing what you want. How much did your Crestron buddy pay? How much have you invested so far. You should be able to switch out the light switches for Control4
> http://www.control4.com/products/lighting
> and get the functionality you want programmed (or do it yourself) pretty easy drag and drop programming interface, or pay your dealer, or use a dealer that works remotely (google neil12011) and email him for example and get what you want.


In this particular system, not one that at location I'm at more than couple of days in every 7-10, I'm not huge on the idea of having to sit down and write macros in the time that I'm there actually. That's as much as I love building and setting up and own multiple HTPCs, as well as standard PC's and laptops. 

I think you are misunderstanding me regarding replication of factory remotes. Using the example of Sony projectors, I do need a macro as such, but I literally want to adjust a specific pic setting or say shift to 2:35 on the fly - no I don't want a macro for that in the projector mode or another mode created for that to happen. already. I just want to be able to hit the desired button or go into the proj's menu if and when needed. Another example would be for shifting over to 3D or wanting to swap to 'game' mode on the projector on the fly. For the time being I'm just finding it easier to pick up the Sony remote.

Re the builder, you don't even know the half of it as to why I call the builder a tight-arse(don't get me started on the massive 2 month fight I had just to get cable TV provisioned just from the curb to the apartment/townhouse's basement). I could give you a laundry list of items he skimped on in what is a multi-mil property. Things like no physical garage door button in the garage (I replaced entire chinese made door motor on advice of a competent door company), no power outlet in entire garage except on ceiling to power door (I had to pay electrician for one), no towel or toilet roll holders in any of 4 bathrooms. At the lesser end of the scale there's fact he admitted he could have easily provisioned a 'cheap' heater for the small pool, but made excuse about owners complaining about electricity bills ($5000+ for me to put a heat pump in last week) and lastly no lighting system in the place, just dozens of unmarked wall switches that drive me to distraction. I've also had both the electrician who provisioned all of the lighting for the complex, who's versed in Lutron and other systems tell me because builder cheaped it out it would now require the entire lighting to redone in order to fit a control system. Had the same advice from other electrician who fitted some extra lighting features chosen by the interior design company I used. Subsequently, as I wasn't going to give up on lighting systems at that stage, I had a good mate of mine's nephew come around last week while I was away who deals with home automation systems. He indicates there is a system that will work to give me lighting control finally. I am awaiting the details of it as the preliminary feedback was passed back through to me by his uncle. 

As far as costs go, I'm awaiting a final bill for Programming, Project management, Cables & accessories and additional install items to come through next week after some final tidy up work is completed next week. As far as costs so far, because the installation was all encompassing by my A/V supplier, I don't have break downs of individual items such as the control4. The system was quoted by room for the most part. I have enough knowledge on the audio components to know what they roughly account for, but no idea what the: Control4 HC250 Controller, Control4 SR250 Handheld Remote x 3,Control4 HC800 System Controller work out at. The final bill for programming, etc will prob be a more relevant one to examine in the scheme of things for the Control4. In looking at that mate of mine's(more a friend of a friend) Crestron system, I have to say it was very much as passing exchange on automation. He's not a person I bump into or catch up with regularly enough to start asking what his Crestron cost him, although I'll try to ask next time I see him - he's def not afraid of spending though. Mind you, as person who's enjoyed putting together systems by hand for over 20 years, I certainly didn't hold back on my whole house budget for this brand new install.


----------



## SMHarman

OzHDHT said:


> In this particular system, not one that at location I'm at more than couple of days in every 7-10, I'm not huge on the idea of having to sit down and write macros in the time that I'm there actually. That's as much as I love building and setting up and own multiple HTPCs, as well as standard PC's and laptops.


You can program remotely with CHE. Of course you cannot see the effects until you get back on site.


OzHDHT said:


> I think you are misunderstanding me regarding replication of factory remotes. Using the example of Sony projectors, I do need a macro as such, but I literally want to adjust a specific pic setting or say shift to 2:35 on the fly - no I don't want a macro for that in the projector mode or another mode created for that to happen. already. I just want to be able to hit the desired button or go into the proj's menu if and when needed. Another example would be for shifting over to 3D or wanting to swap to 'game' mode on the projector on the fly. For the time being I'm just finding it easier to pick up the Sony remote.


 List->house->custom buttons->Custom button title->then button will get you the ability to create the buttons you covet.
Equally you can program the RGBY buttons to say flip between 2.35 and 1.85 on the fly or to switch 3D on and off or Game mode.


OzHDHT said:


> Re the builder, you don't even know the half of it as to why I call the builder a tight-arse(don't get me started on the massive 2 month fight I had just to get cable TV provisioned just from the curb to the apartment/townhouse's basement). I could give you a laundry list of items he skimped on in what is a multi-mil property. Things like no physical garage door button in the garage (I replaced entire chinese made door motor on advice of a competent door company), no power outlet in entire garage except on ceiling to power door (I had to pay electrician for one), no towel or toilet roll holders in any of 4 bathrooms. At the lesser end of the scale there's fact he admitted he could have easily provisioned a 'cheap' heater for the small pool, but made excuse about owners complaining about electricity bills ($5000+ for me to put a heat pump in last week) and lastly no lighting system in the place, just dozens of unmarked wall switches that drive me to distraction. I've also had both the electrician who provisioned all of the lighting for the complex, who's versed in Lutron and other systems tell me because builder cheaped it out it would now require the entire lighting to redone in order to fit a control system. Had the same advice from other electrician who fitted some extra lighting features chosen by the interior design company I used. Subsequently, as I wasn't going to give up on lighting systems at that stage, I had a good mate of mine's nephew come around last week while I was away who deals with home automation systems. He indicates there is a system that will work to give me lighting control finally. I am awaiting the details of it as the preliminary feedback was passed back through to me by his uncle.


Sounds like the Lutron guy is looking for a pay check. Seriously, replace all the swiches with Control 4 ones. You can even get them custom engraved so you know what each one does. Replace some of them with keypad dimmers and then you can program lighting scenes onto the keypad and forget about all the other annoying switches.


OzHDHT said:


> As far as costs go, I'm awaiting a final bill for Programming, Project management, Cables & accessories and additional install items to come through next week after some final tidy up work is completed next week. As far as costs so far, because the installation was all encompassing by my A/V supplier, I don't have break downs of individual items such as the control4. The system was quoted by room for the most part. I have enough knowledge on the audio components to know what they roughly account for, but no idea what the: Control4 HC250 Controller, Control4 SR250 Handheld Remote x 3,Control4 HC800 System Controller work out at. The final bill for programming, etc will prob be a more relevant one to examine in the scheme of things for the Control4. In looking at that mate of mine's(more a friend of a friend) Crestron system, I have to say it was very much as passing exchange on automation. He's not a person I bump into or catch up with regularly enough to start asking what his Crestron cost him, although I'll try to ask next time I see him - he's def not afraid of spending though. Mind you, as person who's enjoyed putting together systems by hand for over 20 years, I certainly didn't hold back on my whole house budget for this brand new install.


HC250 = $750
SR250 = $300
HC800 = $1200
Programming = rate x hours.
Ask for a comp copy of CHE and go from there.


----------



## OzHDHT

SMHarman said:


> You can program remotely with CHE. Of course you cannot see the effects until you get back on site.
> 
> List->house->custom buttons->Custom button title->then button will get you the ability to create the buttons you covet.
> Equally you can program the RGBY buttons to say flip between 2.35 and 1.85 on the fly or to switch 3D on and off or Game mode.
> Sounds like the Lutron guy is looking for a pay check. Seriously, replace all the swiches with Control 4 ones. You can even get them custom engraved so you know what each one does. Replace some of them with keypad dimmers and then you can program lighting scenes onto the keypad and forget about all the other annoying switches.
> 
> HC250 = $750
> SR250 = $300
> HC800 = $1200
> Programming = rate x hours.
> Ask for a comp copy of CHE and go from there.


I just heard back from my guy at the A/V company. His advice was very much along my original feelings about writing macros myself :


> "Making your own macro feature is only for the avid user who wants to play around. Things like 'if doorbell rings then execute pause on TV or light at front gate turn on' or 'at 6pm close blinds on east wall'"-I cant see you using this feature


I can't see coding the coloured buttons for various projector modes being really helpful, particularly if I've then got to recall what it is I each one represents function-wise. I can see myself getting pretty fed with that when I return to system after not using it for a week and am trying to recall which colour does say aspect and which does mode. 

The 'Lutron' guy was just the original electrical contractor hired to do all of the electrical for the complex. He also does Clipsall CBUS lighting automation, etc. He just through out Lutron as a example of systems hes done. My a/v suppliers actually had quoted lighting control for control4, I reminded them of this yesterday and now they will be quoting for whole house control. I'm not wrapped at the estimate of $25K for it, esp after the amount I've already spent on the place in last 3 months..


----------



## SMHarman

OzHDHT said:


> I just heard back from my guy at the A/V company. His advice was very much along my original feelings about writing macros myself :


So the guy who will bill you for writing the code instead says it is not a good idea for you to write your own code. OK, that makes sense for his checking account balance.



OzHDHT said:


> I can't see coding the coloured buttons for various projector modes being really helpful, particularly if I've then got to recall what it is I each one represents function-wise. I can see myself getting pretty fed with that when I return to system after not using it for a week and am trying to recall which colour does say aspect and which does mode.


I was thinking more about this and I can see some of your examples make sense but others dont. For example turning the projector onto gaming mode. Well when you tell the C4 system you want to turn your xBox or whatever on then the system should send the gaming mode command to the projector.
Depending on your BD player and the functionality it presents, it could be telling the system if a 3d disk is put in the machine and to switch to 3d mode and so on.
Aspect ratios, well you have a point there but would it be so hard to have the red button cycle through the aspect modes and remember that?



OzHDHT said:


> The 'Lutron' guy was just the original electrical contractor hired to do all of the electrical for the complex. He also does Clipsall CBUS lighting automation, etc. He just through out Lutron as a example of systems hes done. My a/v suppliers actually had quoted lighting control for control4, I reminded them of this yesterday and now they will be quoting for whole house control. I'm not wrapped at the estimate of $25K for it, esp after the amount I've already spent on the place in last 3 months..


Lutron control by C4
http://extravegetables.com/products/lutron-radiora-classic
Clipsall CBUS
http://extravegetables.com/products/clipsal-c-bus
Control4 Dimmers are MSRP $180 a dimmer, switches, $140 and keypads $200 and Keypad Dimmers $250. Plus the sparkies time to replace the existing switch, the dealer time to connect it to the project and then some scene creation time (something you can modify on your own nicely with CHE). Your dealer should be willing to cut a break on MSRP for these if you are buying a whole house worth.

I dunno, it seems you are looking to bust on C4 and praise Crestron and not even consider advice from anyone other than your dealer and buddy. Good luck.


----------



## OzHDHT

SMHarman said:


> So the guy who will bill you for writing the code instead says it is not a good idea for you to write your own code. OK, that makes sense for his checking account balance.


Nice assumption, perhaps that's true if he's really company-minded, as he's just an employ in the install division of the A/V firm I deal with. I do also respect his opinion for the most part, even if we haven't seem eye to eye all of the elements of the install he's been in charge of. Do I have the time to mess around with Composer HE in the time I'm at the apartment and most likely have my partner there with her daughter or possible entertaining people, answer pretty unlikely in 9/10 times I'm there.



SMHarman said:


> I was thinking more about this and I can see some of your examples make sense but others dont. For example turning the projector onto gaming mode. Well when you tell the C4 system you want to turn your xBox or whatever on then the system should send the gaming mode command to the projector.
> Depending on your BD player and the functionality it presents, it could be telling the system if a 3d disk is put in the machine and to switch to 3d mode and so on.
> Aspect ratios, well you have a point there but would it be so hard to have the red button cycle through the aspect modes and remember that?


 Another good assumption re XBOX, but to be specific it is integration of PS4 - just a tad trickier to have Control4 turn on and off since it's proprietary BT, so I await how the installers handle that next week. I'd like Gaming mode to be a choice in this case, not an automatic thing as I could be using a streaming video service via the PS4 as well for example.

Bluray is Oppo BPD-105 so yes that is prob possible. Not so possible when I'm viewing a file in SBS-3D via the HTPC (something I do as often as watching 3D on Blu ray) and have to engage that specific type of 3D.

It is if you don't use the system every day and each of those colours represent say a different function on the projector. Also, plug my buddy into the situation or lets say girlfriend into it and watch them struggle with getting the projector into 2:35 when they go and want to watch a movie by themselves when I'm not around.


[


SMHarman said:


> Lutron control by C4
> http://extravegetables.com/products/lutron-radiora-classic
> Clipsall CBUS
> http://extravegetables.com/products/clipsal-c-bus
> Control4 Dimmers are MSRP $180 a dimmer, switches, $140 and keypads $200 and Keypad Dimmers $250. Plus the sparkies time to replace the existing switch, the dealer time to connect it to the project and then some scene creation time (something you can modify on your own nicely with CHE). Your dealer should be willing to cut a break on MSRP for these if you are buying a whole house worth.
> 
> I dunno, it seems you are looking to bust on C4 and praise Crestron and not even consider advice from anyone other than your dealer and buddy. Good luck.



What do Lutron's and CBUS' integration with Control4 have to do with my houses lighting as it stands currently? I already explained clearly that the electrical contractor who install the whole of house lighting already quoted I couldn't go back and do Lutron or CBUS control systems unless I wanted to redo the entire houses' lighting - let me quantify the number thrown out there for that as well, $80k (same was said by the other electrician who worked on the place).

You seem to like to jump to the conclusions that I haven't had 'other advice' already. If you'd taken in what I'd said previously on board already regarding my good mate's nephew having been in to check out what could be done and fact I'm awaiting a quote instead of coming across like the oracle of home automation, you'd realise that I am looking at more solutions.



Ozhdht said:


> I had a good mate of mine's nephew come around last week while I was away who deals with home automation systems. He indicates there is a system that will work to give me lighting control finally. I am awaiting the details of it as the preliminary feedback was passed back through to me by his uncle.


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## SMHarman

Ok. 
Those are some nice problems yo have. 
The control4 retro fit lighting should suit your needs well.


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## neil12011

SMHarman said:


> *and get the functionality you want programmed (or do it yourself) pretty easy drag and drop programming interface, or pay your dealer, or use a dealer that works remotely (google neil12011) and email him for example and get what you want.*


I actually googled myself and came across this thread, I appreciate the shout-out sir. I think most people on the C4forums have seen my thread.


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