# Do I Need to Have my TV Calibrated?



## jrref

When I started reading this article I had to stop and put my glassed on to make sure I was reading it correctly.

Overall it has a lot of factual information and opinions but I can't agree with all of it. Specifically, it's very true that TV's, especially the premium ones OOTB are significantly better today than in previous years but often because of panel and component variations, the SDR gamma is not optimal resulting in crushed or glowing blacks and near blacks and this gets worse if you change the brightness on a default PM for example. This is just one common complaint i hear from many owners. There many other aspects of PQ that can be corrected and or optimized with calibration but that's a large discussion. From my experience working on many of the same types and brands of premium TVs, i usually recommend if you like what you see OOTB after you change the PM from Standard to an expert PM like ISF or Filmmaker on the LG or Expert1 or 2 on the Sony, then there is nothing to do but enjoy your TV. If you have the time and money you can learn to calibrate yourself with free or low cost calibration software and an inexpensive meter like an x-rite i1D3 to bring your TV to the next level of accuracy. If you want the most out of your TV, trying to get it as close to reference as possible then a professional calibration is in order. In addition, you would be surprised at the number of higher end home theater installations have calibrated TVs. Another way to look at it is if you are spending the money on a premium TV, for a little more you can make it more accurate by calibrating it yourself or bring it to near reference with a professional calibration. I would agree though on less expensive TVs, changing the picture mode with some user adjustments probably makes sense.


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## imagic

jrref said:


> When I started reading this article I had to stop and put my glassed on to make sure I was reading it correctly.
> 
> Overall it has a lot of factual information and opinions but I can't agree with all of it. Specifically, it's very true that TV's, especially the premium ones OOTB are significantly better today than in previous years but often because of panel and component variations, the SDR gamma is not optimal resulting in crushed or glowing blacks and near blacks and this gets worse if you change the brightness on a default PM for example. This is just one common complaint i hear from many owners. There many other aspects of PQ that can be corrected and or optimized with calibration but that's a large discussion. From my experience working on many of the same types and brands of premium TVs, i usually recommend if you like what you see OOTB after you change the PM from Standard to an expert PM like ISF or Filmmaker on the LG or Expert1 or 2 on the Sony, then there is nothing to do but enjoy your TV. If you have the time and money you can learn to calibrate yourself with free or low cost calibration software and an inexpensive meter like an x-rite i1D3 to bring your TV to the next level of accuracy. If you want the most out of your TV, trying to get it as close to reference as possible then a professional calibration is in order. In addition, *you would be surprised at the number of higher end home theater installations have calibrated TVs*. Another way to look at it is if you are spending the money on a premium TV, for a little more you can make it more accurate by calibrating it yourself or bring it to near reference with a professional calibration. I would agree though on less expensive TVs, changing the picture mode with some user adjustments probably makes sense.


If the context is home theater then one should always get their display calibrated, whether it's a projector or a flat panel. Since the space is light-controlled and the priority is movies, it will allow for a "textbook" calibration that—especially for HD Blu-ray—is spot-on accurate because modern displays cover rec.709 and hit "dark room" SDR peak brightness levels with relative ease. 

I added this to the post _"The best TV for you might not be a model that offers high accuracy out of the box. If this is the case, a calibration should be considered, especially if you have a high priced, high-performance TV intended for home theater applications."_

And of course for that application it's still key... one should make sure the TV is large enough to not look silly!


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## tokerblue

My LG B6 OLED was the first TV that I've had professionally calibrated. While I was waiting for my TV to break in, I just used the ISF settings and adjusted what I could using test patterns. The difference after I had it professionally calibrated was significant. Colors looked a lot better and everything just had a lot more depth to it.

I'd never buy another TV and not have it calibrated. Another side benefit is that I've never had any type of burn-in despite having 8000+ hours on the TV and 1/3 of that on HDR video gaming.


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## p5browne

*Depends who is watching it !*

Me - PQ freak. 
Wife - it has color and makes noise. It's good. Leave it alone.
6 TVs in the house. 5 for the wife, 1 for me.
The 1 gets constant attention. 
The rest, whenever I'm in the mood, and wife not home. (Unfortunately, now she's home all the time, so just mine. Few more years, she'll be on pension, and home all the time.)

Manufacturers will probably do some kind of calibration - same settings for all, or an actual kind of calibration ?
Due to jostling during shipping, and handling at the wholesaler and retailer, settings may get knocked out of adjustment
Calibrated right out of the box ? Most prefer after 100 to 1000 hours of use. (Or both)
Weather affects, electronic changes as parts heat up and cool, room conditions, humidity, and other factors can affect the final results.
Why I took up DIYing. Software and meters have improved over the years, and I like what I like to watch. Seems off - bring back to spec. (This is habit like an addiction!)
You're always learning something new when DIYing. ie I use to calibrate all my HDMI Inputs using software, meter and pattern generator. Recently, I calibrated using AVCHD patterns burned on a Blu-ray for my BD player. Result, a different set of settings. Pattern Generator settings were different than the pattern on Blu-ray settings. I'm going to assume, for my BD player, the Blu-ray patterns are the better way to go because I'm now calibrating the player output versus the pattern generator.

PS. Re room changes: recently purchased a new TV for the wife, and moved her old TV into the guest bedroom. The old TV had to be completely re-calibrated due to the room being a different color, and lighting was also a factor. So manufacturer calibrates where and when, and you're going to setup where?


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## imagic

p5browne said:


> Me - PQ freak.
> Wife - it has color and makes noise. It's good. Leave it alone.
> 6 TVs in the house. 5 for the wife, 1 for me.
> The 1 gets constant attention.
> The rest, whenever I'm in the mood, and wife not home. (Unfortunately, now she's home all the time, so just mine. Few more years, she'll be on pension, and home all the time.)
> 
> Manufacturers will probably do some kind of calibration - same settings for all, or an actual kind of calibration ?
> Due to jostling during shipping, and handling at the wholesaler and retailer, settings may get knocked out of adjustment
> Calibrated right out of the box ? Most prefer after 100 to 1000 hours of use. (Or both)
> Weather affects, electronic changes as parts heat up and cool, room conditions, humidity, and other factors can affect the final results.
> Why I took up DIYing. Software and meters have improved over the years, and I like what I like to watch. Seems off - bring back to spec. (This is habit like an addiction!)
> 
> You're always learning something new when DIYing. ie I use to calibrate all my HDMI Inputs using software, meter and pattern generator. *Recently, I calibrated using AVCHD patterns burned on a Blu-ray for my BD player. Result, a different set of settings. Pattern Generator settings were different than the pattern on Blu-ray settings. I'm going to assume, for my BD player, the Blu-ray patterns are the better way to go because I'm now calibrating the player output versus the pattern generator.*
> 
> PS. Re room changes: recently purchased a new TV for the wife, and moved her old TV into the guest bedroom. *The old TV had to be completely re-calibrated due to the room being a different color, and lighting was also a factor.* So manufacturer calibrates where and when, and you're going to setup where?


- That's not good. Pattern generators are supposed to be a reference you can trust. It's more likely the Blu-ray player is changing something in the signal path, or else the patterns themselves are not the same.

- There's a lot of setup/adjustment you can do to adapt to room lighting conditions that do not require a meter, just patterns and your eyes. 

- I'm not sure what the color of the room itself would have to do with the calibration a TV (lighting conditions, yes... room color?) - I can see how it would impact a reflective screen projection system but a transmissive or emissive screen TV? How does that change what would constitute an accurate calibration?


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## Dave-T

Why spend the money on a good tv if you are not going to take full advantage of it, I feel like this is baiting question. if somebody spend thousands of dollars on a tv don't they want to get the best possible out it? The only way I know to do that is have it professional calibrated. If calibrating a tv had no benefit than movie studios would not do it and people would not do it to make a living.


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## Cheddarhead

Dave-T said:


> If calibrating a tv had no benefit than movie studios would not do it and people would not do it to make a living.



Plenty of people make a living at worthless activities. ;-)


You know like selling $1000 power cables to audiophiles.


I'm not saying calibrating TVs falls into this category.


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## imagic

Dave-T said:


> Why spend the money on a good tv if you are not going to take full advantage of it, I feel like this is baiting question. if somebody spend thousands of dollars on a tv don't they want to get the best possible out it? The only way I know to do that is have it professional calibrated. If calibrating a tv had no benefit than movie studios would not do it and people would not do it to make a living.


Show me where I say calibration "has no benefit" 

In that article, I concluded with _"Of course, there will always be a place for a professional calibration, be it for the mastering displays, for projection-based systems, and yes… fastidious TV owners who want to experience the absolute highest quality they can squeeze out of their system."_

One of the things I tried to get across was that things have changed recently. Go back just a few years and you'd be hard pressed to find any TV that's even close to accurate out of the box. That a TV can even be "acceptable" out of the box is a relatively new thing.

Another thing I tried to convey is that while a pro calibration is how you get the "best" out of a TV, there's often quite a bit that can be done in the realm of setup/optimization to improve upon the default settings as well.


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## John Hooper

I read this so often that you only should use pattern generators, because they are more accurate.. 

But you dont use that pattern generation for anything else. So how accurate is then your cable tv box, your Playstation, your Blu Ray Player.. 

And how "inaccurate" are they.. When they for example show a 20% stimulus window.. How much difference is there.. Has anybody measured that? Why should they be inaccurate.. They are digital and only tell the tv what to display.. Like that certain red, that certain brightness.. These are basic color codes sent to the tv.. Where is the inaccuracy happening? 

I use a i1 Display Pro, HCFR and a Notebook.. Total cost 200$.. I have calibrated lots of tvs, especially Plasma TVs that all need calibration. White Balance was never even close.. Modern LCDs are much better.. 

BUT.. 

Even with a simple calibration set up, you can tweak the remaining 10% and THAT is what makes the difference.. 

It is a great DIY hobby..


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## Transistorious

AVS Forum News & Reviews said:


> Professional calibration... it's a process that is often discussed but infrequently implemented, except by the most fastidious videophiles. Is it necessary?
> 
> *Click here* to read more


fastidious:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fastidious
I love the word.


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## imagic

Bruce2019 said:


> I read this so often that you only should use pattern generators, because they are more accurate..
> 
> But you dont use that pattern generation for anything else. So how accurate is then your cable tv box, your Playstation, your Blu Ray Player..
> 
> And how "inaccurate" are they.. When they for example show a 20% stimulus window.. How much difference is there.. Has anybody measured that? Why should they be inaccurate.. They are digital and only tell the tv what to display.. Like that certain red, that certain brightness.. These are basic color codes sent to the tv.. *Where is the inaccuracy happening? *
> 
> I use a i1 Display Pro, HCFR and a Notebook.. Total cost 200$.. I have calibrated lots of tvs, especially Plasma TVs that all need calibration. White Balance was never even close.. Modern LCDs are much better..
> 
> BUT..
> 
> Even with a simple calibration set up, you can tweak the remaining 10% and THAT is what makes the difference..
> 
> It is a great DIY hobby..


The inaccuracy would be the result of some sort of picture processing inside the source.

It's not that you should ONLY use a pattern generator. If you are sure your other source is putting out a clean, unprocessed, accurate signal for your patterns, then you can use it no problem. It's just that the other sources should match the pattern generator, when showing the same pattern. 

The point is pattern generators do not have video processing built in, and it's that video processing that's going to cause another device to display something different. 

Yes, if you go back a few years basically all TVs needed calibration. Plasmas definitely needed periodic "maintenance" mine would drift.


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## eljaycanuck

AVS Forum News & Reviews said:


> Do I Need to Have my TV Calibrated?


Need to? No. Could a calibration be worthwhile? Definitely maybe.


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## Kris Opala

I enjoyed the read actually and definitely agree with the premise of the article. Lower -end purchases often do not justify prof. calibration but they always justify fiddling with the settings to see how far you can push and pull the display into somewhat standard profile. That said, we enthusiasts all want to get the absolute most out of our displays I'm sure. To that effect, I'm taking suggestions as to attempting a somewhat professional calibration using inexpensive tools and methods like those mentioned above but also wouldn't mind renting the pro meters and dedicated software setup to go through the process myself. Does anyone know if that's even an option?


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## teetertotter

I believe with the new TV's today, selecting the various pre-factory settings, you will be able to have a superb picture....to your liking.


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## JasonTNT

*Change channels and...*

I had my TV calibrated once and the minute I changed channels and sources (every Blu-ray is different), calibration made some networks worse and some movies seemed almost black and white.

Seems to me calibration would be absolutely critical and 100% necessary if every network and UHD/ Blu-Ray disc shared the same color spectrum. I just know that CBS is different from ESPN, FOX, and others. NBC loves red. When will they all get on the same page?


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## imagic

JasonTNT said:


> *I had my TV calibrated once and the minute I changed channels and sources (every Blu-ray is different), calibration made some networks worse and some movies seemed almost black and white.*
> 
> Seems to me calibration would be absolutely critical and 100% necessary if every network and UHD/ Blu-Ray disc shared the same color spectrum. I just know that CBS is different from ESPN, FOX, and others. NBC loves red. When will they all get on the same page?


Sounds to me like the person doing the calibrating did not know what they were doing. 

HDTV is indeed broadcast a single color standard, rec.709 (BT.709), which is the same standard that's used by HD Blu-ray. As for movies and shows having different tints, yes that's a thing. Live sports, the color temp often visibly varies from camera to camera. A calibrated TV will simply show those differences more accurately.


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## JasonTNT

imagic said:


> Sounds to me like the person doing the calibrating did not know what they were doing.
> 
> HDTV is indeed broadcast a single color standard, rec.709 (BT.709), which is the same standard that's used by HD Blu-ray. As for movies and shows having different tints, yes that's a thing. Live sports, the color temp often visibly varies from camera to camera. A calibrated TV will simply show those differences more accurately.


Was wondering the same thing. Thanks for reply.


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## p5browne

imagic said:


> - That's not good. Pattern generators are supposed to be a reference you can trust. It's more likely the Blu-ray player is changing something in the signal path, or else the patterns themselves are not the same.


My comment here was, the Pattern Generator does put out a clean signal and does give a set of settings. 
BUT, if the BD Player is some how affecting the output signal to the TV, then the Pattern Generator settings maybe accurate, but are the settings correct for the BD Player playback? Hence, the Pattern Blu-ray to calibrate for the BD Player signal to now make it accurate.


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## imagic

p5browne said:


> My comment here was, the Pattern Generator does put out a clean signal and does give a set of settings.
> BUT, if the BD Player is some how affecting the output signal to the TV, then the Pattern Generator settings maybe accurate, but are the settings correct for the BD Player playback? Hence, the Pattern Blu-ray to calibrate for the BD Player signal to now make it accurate.


Ideally, you would find the setting in the Blu-ray player that is causing the difference and disable it. Or get a different Blu-ray player that doesn't alter the signal.


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## p5browne

I don't recall anyone ever comparing a Pattern Generator Output to a BD Player Output to see if there is any signal change. Are there actually any BD Players with HDMI Inputs? As you mentioned the Pattern Generator Patterns versus the Blu-ray Patterns themselves may have differences. Since not many BD Players have HDMI Inputs, it would be kind of hard to do a comparison.


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## imagic

p5browne said:


> I don't recall anyone ever comparing a Pattern Generator Output to a BD Player Output to see if there is any signal change.* Are there actually any BD Players with HDMI Inputs*? As you mentioned the Pattern Generator Patterns versus the Blu-ray Patterns themselves may have differences. Since not many BD Players have HDMI Inputs, it would be kind of hard to do a comparison.


Oppo, Xbox One.

But, that should not be necessary. you should be able to find patterns that are technically the same (same window size, luminance and color) and then measure each through the same input to see if there's any difference.


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## Rysa_105

I would want a cal ideally, if the cost is not prohibitive, which is unfortunately not the case where i live. when im looking at like 50- 60% of the price i paid for a 65" oled tv, then it is hard to justify the expenditure, i could afford it but it's more that i cannot justify that much. i know in the US you could get an isf certified cal for around 500-600 usd. For me it's significantly more, i mean i could save the money, add just a bit more and would have enough for a JL audio E-sub. Though it makes better sense to go for a more accurately factory calibrated tv if you know you wont be getting it calibrated. pana and sony tv's are good in this regard, samsung is probably the worst offender.


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## John Hooper

Just one example.. 

One of my PC Monitors.. It is a (rather budget) NEC 24inch Monitor.. Nothing fancy, but not a cheap model either.. 

Out of the Box SRGB (which is also the 6500 D65) color temp picture mode.. 

Trust me.. You see that green tint.. And this is what you get out of the box.. 

The adjustment options of these monitors are extremely basic, but you can transform this green tint performance monitor into something that is really good.. 

And the calibration results are consistent.. So you can color grade all your displays.. Attached you see my HD Ready Plasma and that monitor.. (same camera settings) 

So even with different display techs, you can color match them spot on.. Once you see that.. you never go back.. 

So beware.. It is a hobby, but it also can be a rabbit hole


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## John Hooper

So what I actually tried to say is that the budget models benefit from calibration the most.. But it makes only sense if you do it yourself.. 

The premium models should be much better calibrated.. but again.. Only tweaking will give you the best possible performance


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## imagic

Bruce2019 said:


> Just one example..
> 
> One of my PC Monitors.. It is a (rather budget) NEC 24inch Monitor.. Nothing fancy, but not a cheap model either..
> 
> Out of the Box SRGB (which is also the 6500 D65) color temp picture mode..
> 
> Trust me.. You see that green tint.. And this is what you get out of the box..
> 
> The adjustment options of these monitors are extremely basic, but you can transform this green tint performance monitor into something that is really good..
> 
> And the calibration results are consistent.. So you can color grade all your displays.. Attached you see my HD Ready Plasma and that monitor.. (same camera settings)
> 
> So even with different display techs, you can color match them spot on.. Once you see that.. you never go back..
> 
> So beware.. It is a hobby, but it also can be a rabbit hole


For PCs in general, and especially any sort of graphics workflow, monitor calibration is a must. Fortunately on PC it's easy and affordable to get a SpyderX kit or a i1Display Pro kit and the included software makes profiling and calibrating a cinch. I have a total of 5 PC screens calibrated, been doing it a long time for my photo and video work.


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## BiggAW

It's idiotic not to calibrate. Whether you need a professional calibration or not is a whole different discussion. I've had good results using the calibrations posted here and adjusting them a bit by eyeballing it- not the most scientific method, but it noticeably improved the performance from when the TV came out of the box.


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## imagic

BiggAW said:


> It's idiotic not to calibrate. Whether you need a professional calibration or not is a whole different discussion. I've had good results using the calibrations posted here and adjusting them a bit by eyeballing it- not the most scientific method, but it noticeably improved the performance from when the TV came out of the box.


Technically that's optimization/setup not calibration you are describing, with the defining difference being the absence of a meter of any sort. 

And yeah it's worth it to do that tweaking, as I go over in the post. But regardless of whether a pro or an amateur does it, to actually calibrate a TV requires a (profiled i.e. accurate) meter and specialized software.

But the point remains valid, you can do a lot with optimization. It's "crazy" not to at least make some adjustments.


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## NeilPeart

imagic said:


> Show me where I say calibration "has no benefit"
> 
> In that article, I concluded with _"Of course, there will always be a place for a professional calibration, be it for the mastering displays, for projection-based systems, and yes… fastidious TV owners who want to experience the absolute highest quality they can squeeze out of their system."_
> 
> One of the things I tried to get across was that things have changed recently. Go back just a few years and you'd be hard pressed to find any TV that's even close to accurate out of the box. That a TV can even be "acceptable" out of the box is a relatively new thing.
> 
> Another thing I tried to convey is that while a pro calibration is how you get the "best" out of a TV, there's often quite a bit that can be done in the realm of setup/optimization to improve upon the default settings as well.


Your comment regarding out-of-the-box accuracy is very true, Mark. My Sony KD-34XS955 Wega CRT needed lots of changes in the servicemenu and even my Panasonic ST60 and Samsung F8500 plasmas needed plenty of grasycale adjustment and other tweaks to be accurate (calibrated those myself). Only my Pioneer Kuro Elite plasma monitor (PRO-101FD) was mostly accurate, though it still benefited from a full calibration by D-Nice (his gear and knowledge far surpassed mine). My friend's LG 65" C9 OLED was quite accurate and needed minimal grasycale adjustments out of the box - I was impressed.  The next challenge is calibrating for both SDR and HDR - with HDR10+, HLG and DV (maybe others too?) I'm not sure how that works anymore.


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## GalvatronType_R

I had my OLED calibrated by a local big box technician who was ISF certified. He spent an hour on the TV and went on his way and I was not pleased with the result. Was the picture “reference?” I guess it was. But was it pleasing? No.

The blacks were way too dark which crushed shadow detail. Sure some HDR material got some color pop but as soon as I watched broadcast or played a game or watched anything in SDR, the picture just didn’t look right. So I changed the settings back to something that might not be “reference” but is pleasing to me.

Lastly, I think there is some placebo effect/justify my purchase thing going on here. People who buy $100,000 speaker cables don’t want to hear that they got played, or people who spent $500+ on a calibration don’t want to hear that calibration is purely optional and subjective, just like the guy down the street with the white indoor sunglasses, popped collar and too much hair product doesn’t want to hear that there are cheaper cars that can outrun his M4.


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## New24K

This is all rather funny, really... do you want what someone says you are supposed to like - or do you want what you like...?

A lot (most?) of people (non-videophiles) don't like the look of a "properly" calibrated TV.

I was at a Magnolia store years ago looking for my first upper-level TV and there was a setup there showing off a calibrated TV vs. a non-calibrated TV.

The rep asked me which TV I thought looked better - and I quickly picked the one that looked better to me - it was the un-calibrated one.

He said that almost everyone picks the un-calibrated one.

The calibrated one looked dark, washed out, dull, lifeless, etc.

Just like the THX mode on my first upper-level TV.


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## tokerblue

New24K said:


> This is all rather funny, really... do you want what someone says you are supposed to like - or do you want what you like...?
> 
> A lot (most?) of people (non-videophiles) don't like the look of a "properly" calibrated TV.
> 
> I was at a Magnolia store years ago looking for my first upper-level TV and there was a setup there showing off a calibrated TV vs. a non-calibrated TV.
> 
> The rep asked me which TV I thought looked better - and I quickly picked the one that looked better to me - it was the un-calibrated one.
> 
> He said that almost everyone picks the un-calibrated one.
> 
> The calibrated one looked dark, washed out, dull, lifeless, etc.
> 
> Just like the THX mode on my first upper-level TV.


Depends on whether you're looking for accuracy or not. A lot of people jack up the treble and bass on their systems too. But they're not necessarily looking to play back music as it was intended.

Then there are people who like Dynamic picture modes. Doesn't matter if the grass in a baseball game looks like it's neon green.


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## ereyes06

imagic said:


> Sounds to me like the person doing the calibrating did not know what they were doing.
> 
> HDTV is indeed broadcast a single color standard, rec.709 (BT.709), which is the same standard that's used by HD Blu-ray. As for movies and shows having different tints, yes that's a thing. Live sports, the color temp often visibly varies from camera to camera. A calibrated TV will simply show those differences more accurately.





imagic said:


> *Sounds to me like the person doing the calibrating did not know what they were doing. *
> 
> To me, someone with an untrained eye who enjoys what in my eyes looks like a good picture, I have always kept away from engaging a professional calibrator. Reason: How do I know that the person calibrating my television is an actual "Good" professional calibrator rather than a hobbyist with some equipment, software and the opportunity to make some $$$? Please don't get me wrong; I know that you do not become "good " at anything overnight. But, I would really feel stupid if I pay someone $500.00 USD ( a got a quote from someone), to come into my home, calibrated my TV only to find later that this person did not know what they were doing.
> 
> Just as an example: I have tried enabling Netflix calibrated mode on my Z9G when watching an episode of "Lost in Space". Like I have said, my eyes are untrained, but I do not enjoy the much darker picture. In other words, the picture sucks. Am I missing something here? Is that the kind of picture I should be expecting after professional calibration? Should I instead try the expert 1 and 2 modes that someone mentioned in a reply? I would like to have my TV calibrated, but I need an idea as to where to find a qualified calibrator in my area.
> 
> To that end, is there a website or online database where one could find reviews of professional calibrators for City/State/Area?
> 
> Thank you for any advise / guidance.
> Ed


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## jrref

imagic said:


> Technically that's optimization/setup not calibration you are describing, with the defining difference being the absence of a meter of any sort.
> 
> And yeah it's worth it to do that tweaking, as I go over in the post. But regardless of whether a pro or an amateur does it, to actually calibrate a TV requires a (profiled i.e. accurate) meter and specialized software.
> 
> But the point remains valid, you can do a lot with optimization. It's "crazy" not to at least make some adjustments.


There are actually some people who believe they can calibrate by "eye"  No equipment needed.


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## tokerblue

Edgar Reyes said:


> To me, someone with an untrained eye who enjoys what in my eyes looks like a good picture, I have always kept away from engaging a professional calibrator. Reason: How do I know that the person calibrating my television is an actual "Good" professional calibrator rather than a hobbyist with some equipment, software and the opportunity to make some $$$? Please don't get me wrong; I know that you do not become "good " at anything overnight. But, I would really feel stupid if I pay someone $500.00 USD ( a got a quote from someone), to come into my home, calibrated my TV only to find later that this person did not know what they were doing.


There's a forum with calibrators. Many of them have really good reviews from members of this forum.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/

That being said, the point of the calibration is accuracy. If you want to see what the director intended, this is the closest way to get your TV to that. You also need to let your eyes adjust to what a calibrated picture looks like. Once you see things as they are meant to be, it will seem more natural.

In a real world example I can give you is sports. If you watch a lot of sports on your TV, you'll start to notice things like skin tone, grass, etc. Then when you watch sports somewhere else like a bar, you'll notice that skin tones look to orange or you'll start to lose details. You also get a much better picture in dark scenes of movies where details aren't crushed. The other end of the spectrum usually looks better also. I know that when I calibrated my TV with test patterns, I couldn't get the slight tinge of green out of snow without messing up other colors. That was immediately fixed with my ISF calibration.


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## imagic

New24K said:


> This is all rather funny, really... do you want what someone says you are supposed to like - or do you want what you like...?
> 
> A lot (most?) of people (non-videophiles) don't like the look of a "properly" calibrated TV.
> 
> *I was at a Magnolia store years ago looking for my first upper-level TV and there was a setup there showing off a calibrated TV vs. a non-calibrated TV.*
> 
> The rep asked me which TV I thought looked better - and I quickly picked the one that looked better to me - it was the un-calibrated one.
> 
> He said that almost everyone picks the un-calibrated one.
> 
> The calibrated one looked dark, washed out, dull, lifeless, etc.
> 
> Just like the THX mode on my first upper-level TV.



I remember that Best Buy display, I'm sure it did much to turn people away from calibration. The problem is that a textbook ISF calibration is not appropriate for a TV that's on display in a big box show floor. Indeed, that's exactly what vivid mode was created for, is that environment.

Beyond that, the so-called "Standard" picture mode on TVs exists for a reason, and that is many people like that punchy, juiced up picture it provides. As others have mentioned, it doesn't matter if grass is not lime green in the real world, I remember thinking I was doing a favor for a golf fan when I calibrated their TV and the moment they saw an accurate picture, they immediately asked that I reset it to how it was. Which of course was simly the "Standard" picture mode defaults.

Perhaps the single most important thing about calibrated TVs is that they are calibrated for HDR, you're supposed to watch with the lights out, otherwise I definitely will look to dark. And rec.709 calibrations should have a gamma and a peak brightness that is a good match for the viewing environment. It's especially important to have a bright room and a dark room calibration, and to switch between them, otherwise the results will indeed be disappointing.


----------



## toby5

You absolutely need calibration. I saw someone mention in a post about how their professional calibration looked great on 1 source and terrible on another. This is where I have changed my calibration study and findings. When I do my calibration now, I look at not only the numbers that Calman give me. I'm using autocal for a Sony X950G, then cleaning up the grayscale afterwards to get it closer to the correct mark, then checking multiple sources and making sure they're free from error. Using a spectro with with an i1 display pro has also done wonders for the overall output of my calibration. If you look on this forum you will see plenty of posts suggesting to do this, and it is absolutely correct if you want to calibrate a TV or projector yourself. Also, setting up your probes on a tripod so the probe doesn't make contact on the TV is correct as well, but anyways if you do calibrate yourself, checking multiple sources to make sure color is correct, grain isn't funky, and just all around to your liking, it really does make a world of difference.


----------



## BiggAW

imagic said:


> Technically that's optimization/setup not calibration you are describing, with the defining difference being the absence of a meter of any sort.
> 
> And yeah it's worth it to do that tweaking, as I go over in the post. But regardless of whether a pro or an amateur does it, to actually calibrate a TV requires a (profiled i.e. accurate) meter and specialized software.
> 
> But the point remains valid, you can do a lot with optimization. It's "crazy" not to at least make some adjustments.


It is calibration to an extent, as several forum members with the same TV did the measurements, and I took those and tweaked them a bit by eye and for my room conditions. Could there be slight manufacturing variations between sets? Sure, but I get 90% of the way there for free with relatively little effort, and I'd mess around by eye with a measured calibration of my TV anyway, so it probably doesn't end up mattering where those calibration numbers came from. It does kind of irk me that the factor defaults aren't already calibrated, as so many TVs are on insane bright mode with too much sharpening and a bunch of other crap turned on to the point where they look awful.


----------



## imagic

BiggAW said:


> *It is calibration to an extent, as several forum members with the same TV did the measurements*, and I took those and tweaked them a bit by eye and for my room conditions. *Could there be slight manufacturing variations between sets? Sure*, but I get *90% of the way there for free with relatively little effort*, and I'd mess around by eye with a measured calibration of my TV anyway, so it probably doesn't end up mattering where those calibration numbers came from. It does kind of irk me that the factor defaults aren't already calibrated, as *so many TVs are on insane bright mode with too much sharpening and a bunch of other crap turned o*n to the point where they look awful.


It is simply not a *calibration* unless you take measurements of the specific display being calibrated, using a meter.

Again, that's not to say that you did not achieve an improvement. It's just that you used settings from a calibrated display to help *optimize* yours, not calibrate it. 

There absolutely are variations between sets.

In the last part of your comment, what you're asking for is that TV makers default to the Movie mode instead on "Standard" or "Vivid" - Which again would be optimizing the TV, not calibrating it. I never miss an opportunity to suggest this to any TV maker that I meet. I have also repeatedly suggested that remote controls be designed with a button that lets you switch back and forth from Standard and Movie mode with a single press, which might give the feature a fighting chance of being used.

Anyhow, the point remains that unless you use a meter on a specific display, it is not being calibrated, it's being optimized. You are of course welcome to keep using the terminology in the wrong manner.


----------



## Cheddarhead

imagic said:


> In the last part of your comment, what you're asking for is that TV makers default to the Movie mode instead on "Standard" or "Vivid" - Which again would be optimizing the TV, not calibrating it. I never miss an opportunity to suggest this to any TV maker that I meet. I have also repeatedly suggested that remote controls be designed with a button that lets you switch back and forth from Standard and Movie mode with a single press, which might give the feature a fighting chance of being used.



Even if they don't add it to the default remote give us a code to directly change the mode so those of us that have after-market remotes (Harmony, UGC, etc.) could program it in. Sony TVs had this until a recent firmware that broke the ability to go directly to the screen that let you change modes.


----------



## p5browne

To many, getting use to a calibrated set, is like learning to like olives. (Which I still don't) Once addicted to a calibrated set, you never go back. Sunglasses required when visiting local Audio/Video stores.

When I calibrate my set, I've learned it hasn't looked quite right until the set settles in: 30 minutes to 2 hours later? Next day?
But, I always do a fine tune the next day and this now brings out the best. Which leads to the above posting - a set CANNOT be calibrated properly in an hour!

Many have used my settings, and to them I've always said that my settings might work quite well on their set, will work with some additional tweaking, or just plain won't work at all. NONE will look like mine with my settings !

Despite TVs having the same model #, all have differences between the panels, some actually have different manufacturer's panels, time of usage affects component values, is the manufacturer using same settings on all sets, or actually some kind of calibration for each.

To each their own. Who's happier, that chap going down the street, big boom box on his shoulder, blaring out at 50% distortion, big smile on his face, or the audiophile who hears minute scratches on his vinyl record, and it's driving him crazy.

Then there's my wife - it has color, makes noise and plays what I want - leave it alone.


----------



## IronManFan

Some of us have no choice but to calibrate, because we have psychological disorders that prevent us from enjoying something that isn't performing at its optimum level. I have a 2018 Q9FN, and it just. Never. Looked. Right. Being OCD, the picture flaws were like a drip keeping me awake at night. (Wife didn't notice, couldn't care less, worried about my mental health) I spent countless hours tinkering, tweaking, using other people's settings. At a certain point the time spent became untenable. One visit from Chad B, and now I can finally just enjoy the TV for what it is with all of its strengths and imperfections. (Wife admitted picture looks better). Was it expensive? Yes. Was it worth it? Oh, hell yes.


----------



## BiggAW

imagic said:


> It is simply not a *calibration* unless you take measurements of the specific display being calibrated, using a meter.
> 
> Again, that's not to say that you did not achieve an improvement. It's just that you used settings from a calibrated display to help *optimize* yours, not calibrate it.


I understand what you're saying about using feedback from that exact set, but I think that's too narrow a definition of the word in this context.



> There absolutely are variations between sets.


There can be some variation, if it's significant, then there's a manufacturing problem. Of course, there have been many manufacturing problems over the years with various sets, as evidenced by various posts abou them.



> In the last part of your comment, what you're asking for is that TV makers default to the Movie mode instead on "Standard" or "Vivid" - Which again would be optimizing the TV, not calibrating it. I never miss an opportunity to suggest this to any TV maker that I meet. I have also repeatedly suggested that remote controls be designed with a button that lets you switch back and forth from Standard and Movie mode with a single press, which might give the feature a fighting chance of being used.


Not really. What I'm saying is that they should use calibrated default settings for Standard (TV), Movie, and Game modes. If you look at the calibration threads on this forum, you will see that for many TVs, the defaults are ridiculous, and way off from being calibrated or optimized or whatever you want to call it. They should start at a default point that's 90% of the way there for all sets, and if people want to get the last 10% out of it, they can use a meter.



> Anyhow, the point remains that unless you use a meter on a specific display, it is not being calibrated, it's being optimized. You are of course welcome to keep using the terminology in the wrong manner.


I'm going to disagree with your definition of the word "calibration" in this context. The original definition of calibration is to use a standard to make something the same. However, that would assume that you're just adjusting for variations in manufacturing or maybe wear over time in a CCFL tube or something, but that's not what 90% of the calibration is doing, it's doing what you're calling "optimizing" since the factory settings are usually ridiculous and can be made much better just by eyeballing it, and then it's going a little bit above and beyond that as well. So really, if you want to split hairs, neither scenario for TV calibration is even close to what the original meaning of the word calibration is.

I also think that there is some level of eyeballing required to make the TV pleasant to watch, especially for heavily compressed content, or content with a lot of certain colors in it. I used to watch a lot of basketball, and I futzed around a lot with the color settings to not get courts to be overly dull, nor overly red, which was a very, very fine line. The cameras weren't capturing reality very well, and the compression was further messing things up, so I had to make up for it on my end to get a watchable picture. I don't think the Sharp Quattron really helped the situation either, but that's another story. I'm much happier with my Samsung JS850D.


----------



## John Hooper

Definition of calibrate: to measure against a standard

Eyballing is not calibration.. The measuring process is missing..


----------



## imagic

BiggAW said:


> I understand what you're saying about using feedback from that exact set, but I think that's too narrow a definition of the word in this context.


Like I said, you are free to use the term incorrectly. No need for a tl:dr explanation as to why you insist on it. 

Or you could just use a more appropriate term, like setup or optimization.


----------



## BiggAW

imagic said:


> Like I said, you are free to use the term incorrectly. No need for a tl:dr explanation as to why you insist on it.
> 
> Or you could just use a more appropriate term, like setup or optimization.


I still disagree with your usage of the word "calibration" in this context.


----------



## BiggAW

Bruce2019 said:


> Definition of calibrate: to measure against a standard
> 
> Eyballing is not calibration.. The measuring process is missing..


The issue is, that would assume that the TV was designed to match the standard in the first place, and you're calibrating it to get it back to that standard, but that's not how TVs work. They are typically way out of whack when they come out of the box.


----------



## imagic

Lol


----------



## Chirosamsung

IronManFan said:


> Some of us have no choice but to calibrate, because we have psychological disorders that prevent us from enjoying something that isn't performing at its optimum level. I have a 2018 Q9FN, and it just. Never. Looked. Right. Being OCD, the picture flaws were like a drip keeping me awake at night. (Wife didn't notice, couldn't care less, worried about my mental health) I spent countless hours tinkering, tweaking, using other people's settings. At a certain point the time spent became untenable. One visit from Chad B, and now I can finally just enjoy the TV for what it is with all of its strengths and imperfections. (Wife admitted picture looks better). Was it expensive? Yes. Was it worth it? Oh, hell yes.


Does Chad B ever come to Greater Toronto area?


----------



## p5browne

Chirosamsung said:


> Does Chad B ever come to Greater Toronto area?


Is he even going anywhere these days ?


----------



## Rysa_105

Bruce2019 said:


> So what I actually tried to say is that the budget models benefit from calibration the most.. But it makes only sense if you do it yourself..
> 
> The premium models should be much better calibrated.. but again.. Only tweaking will give you the best possible performance


Factory cal on a premium tv will be much better than a budget tv , but with a budget tv it's also a case of 'you can only polish a turd so much', so would a cal be worth it? A cal will improve grayscale and color accuracy but cal cannot make a budget tv with shoddy native contrast ratio and poor gamut coverage have its native contrast ratio increased or make it show more color combinations on screen than what its gamut coverage allows. IOW, a cal has to operate within the technical limitations of a display. And besides, do people buying budget tv's really care for the best PQ, do they care for accuracy and honoring the creator's intent, do they care to watch in light controlled environments to get the best perception of contrast and best HDR performance? Answer to these questions would be no in the case of most budget tv buyers. They just care about a tv that gets the job done and doesnt cost a lot, they make some tweaks to get the picture to their liking but that's about it, i doubt they think of calibration.


----------



## Ricoflashback

***Calibration is a "nice to have" as supposed to a "gotta have" benefit, IMHO. It really depends on how much "optimization" you can get from your TV and how well the picture fits your eyes. Now, there are many home theater aficionados that will tell you that you HAVE to get a calibration, period. Otherwise, the colors won't be accurate AND your won't see things "as the Director intended them to be." I've never been in that camp. I'm not interested in the Director's intentions. I'm all about what's pleasing to my eye and with today's advanced sets - - it's very easy to dial into a fantastic picture. 

One question about calibration that I've never gotten a solid answer on is with many manufacturers pushing out multiple firmware updates - - does that affect a calibration at any given point in time? In other words (sorry Ron) is it a one time "set it and forget it?" If I were a calibrator, I'd say you need a re-check (maintenance) on your calibration every time a firmware update occurs - - just to make sure you're getting the most accurate colors and picture possible with your TV. May I interest you in a "Calibration Contract" with ongoing maintenance and support? We have one to fit every budget...


----------



## lam23

Cheddarhead said:


> Plenty of people make a living at worthless activities. ;-)
> 
> 
> You know like selling $1000 power cables to audiophiles.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying calibrating TVs falls into this category.


Audiophiles are incredibly gullible. They'll spend $125 on a basic "quantum" fuse believing (and reporting!) that their electronics sound better. So, too, will they spend $2,800 PER METER for RCA component interconnects and even $300 ea for little stands to lift their cables (power cords, interconnects and/or speaker wires) off the ground (because, of course, it makes them sound better). TV calibration doesn't even come close to this level of ignorance, wishful-thinking and sheer wastefulness, but it does seem to try sometimes.


----------



## Ricoflashback

lam23 said:


> Audiophiles are incredibly gullible. They'll spend $125 on a basic "quantum" fuse believing (and reporting!) that their electronics sound better. So, too, will they spend $2,800 PER METER for RCA component interconnects and even $300 ea for little stands to lift their cables (power cords, interconnects and/or speaker wires) off the ground (because, of course, it makes them sound better). TV calibration doesn't even come close to this level of ignorance, wishful-thinking and sheer wastefulness, but it does seem to try sometimes.


***I don't know about you but my TK-421 modification gave me MORE than three quads per channel increase for my stereo system back in the 1970's. And today - - with my pair of $5K upgraded, diamond tipped, kevlar encased speaker cables - - I have an unparalleled "sonic response," that cannot be matched by any other cable on the market today. I mean, we're talking about "orders of magnitude" that cannot be scientifically measured but only heard to be fully appreciated. (PM me if you'd like to get your hands on these babies. They are very, very hard to find anywhere in the world! Limited supply. The creator, MIT Engineer & Nobel Peace Winner - Ziggy Stenzel, mysteriously disappeared a year ago. He was my Dad's best friend and he gave some cables to him which my Dad handed down to me.)


----------



## Shermstead

Professional video calibration is only 50% of your system setup. 

Jeff Meier, of AccucalAV, calibrated my projector and sound. The video calibration was stunning and the audio calibration took my system to a totally new level that I didn’t realize was possible!


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## NYC Guy

The last TV I had professionally calibrated was my Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro-111FD back in 2008. This was a major purchase and not a $500 set. Since then I have purchased several sets and have always used the settings that have been posted on this site for those models.


----------



## dcnblues

p5browne said:


> ...When I calibrate my set, I've learned it hasn't looked quite right until the set settles in: 30 minutes to 2 hours later? Next day?
> But, I always do a fine tune the next day and this now brings out the best. Which leads to the above posting - a set CANNOT be calibrated properly in an hour!



That's good info. I'm going to try to remember it.


----------



## dcnblues

tokerblue said:


> Depends on whether you're looking for accuracy or not. A lot of people jack up the treble and bass on their systems too. But they're not necessarily looking to play back music as it was intended.
> 
> Then there are people who like Dynamic picture modes. Doesn't matter if the grass in a baseball game looks like it's neon green.



This is too complacent. The problem is that people, and especially kids, grow to prefer what they've been exposed to. There was a Stanford study on audio which I'm sure translates to visual reproduction in which it was clearly shown that given a choice between crappy ear bud sound and high end headphones, kids preferred the crappy sound. Same deal with heavy bass and overly produced / equalized sound in relation to high fidelity. 



When people watch movies / tv on screens with heavily altered signals because screen manufacturers need to (ironically) jack up synthetic modifications to make gaming look more real, or because they think they're supposed to prefer the 'loudness wars' of uber bright 'display settings' (the better to seem brighter / crisper in comparison to competitor's screens at Costco or wherever), it's a problem. 



My first large screen wasn't an issue. It looked good out of the box, and going online I found a review with specific recommended calibration / correction settings which worked beautifully. There were some shows where the production settings synced so well I can't easily describe how the potent quality of the image punched my brain (looking at you, Suits). Just a PERFECT image. I was SO, SO happy...



My current screen is smaller and I like the manufacturer, but while I was able to find another set of recommended settings, they made the barely acceptable image worse. I'm stuck, and it's frustrating. I know the range of adjustments could make it gorgeous, and even good enough to serve as a low budget external monitor for color correcting while video editing (I'm fully aware it's not a professional monitor, but it would be better than nothing).


But in the SF Bay Area I can't even find a place that'll do a color correction, and even if I did they'd charge more than the screen cost. 



I'm under the impression that buying a lower cost meter / software combo may not get me anything I'm happy with, and might require windows (which I don't have. I have a linux desktop and a chromebook pad). It's frustrating, and it's hard to think I just need to blow another 300 on a new screen.


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## imagic

dcnblues said:


> That's good info. I'm going to try to remember it.


Doubtful anything is changing with the TV itself. But... final tweaks based on real "reference" image(s) and clips is in fact the official last step in a THX Certified calibration (RIP) the meters don't get to have the absolute last word.

What's likely happening is just like editing your writing... it's best to take a break and revisit with "fresh eyes" to make those last tweaks.


----------



## imagic

dcnblues said:


> *I'm under the impression that buying a lower cost meter / software combo may not get me anything I'm happy with*, and might require windows (which I don't have. I have a linux desktop and a chromebook pad). It's frustrating, and it's hard to think I just need to blow another 300 on a new screen.


No Windows? That makes it tough to suggest a solution but that's why I stressed that I do hope in the future phone apps are able to offer a path to "quick and dirty" consumer calibrations.

I'm just gonna toss this out here... With a low cost meter (SpyderX) you can use the included software to perform a basic 2-point grayscale adjustment to a display. Improving that is—bar none—the biggest improvement you can make to a TV's PQ that requires a meter. There is almost never any negative to doing this. For SDR calibration you can also use the meter as-is to set the peak luminance. It may not be super precise but it's going to be better than nothing.

IMO, once you have that 2-point adjustment tweaked as well as possible, the rest of the optimizations can be accomplished, by eye, using test patterns.

Getting into 10-point, 11-point, 22-point, 3D LUT and CMS calibration required more specialized software and also demands better hardware (both the meter and the display) to ensure the effort is worthwhile.


----------



## dcnblues

IronManFan said:


> Some of us have no choice but to calibrate, because we have psychological disorders that prevent us from enjoying something that isn't performing at its optimum level. ...



Laughed out loud for the first time in a few days. Thanks.


----------



## liffie420

I have never personally bothered with it. My mom bought a tv years ago and calibration came with the installation. As far as I am concerned so long as I think the picutre looks good, I'm good with that. That said I have adjusted teh brightness and contract on both my big tv's as I found them both to bright out of the box. I tend to prefer a bit dimmer picture with a bit boosted color saturation. I wouldn't mind getting my Vizio P series calibrated, the Vizio has one of the MOST accessible calibration menu on pretty much any tv, and see what it looks like, but I would be pissed to pay that money and then NOT like the picture.


----------



## imagic

liffie420 said:


> I have never personally bothered with it. My mom bought a tv years ago and calibration came with the installation. As far as I am concerned so long as I think the picutre looks good, I'm good with that. That said I have adjusted teh brightness and contract on both my big tv's as I found them both to bright out of the box. I tend to prefer a bit dimmer picture with a bit boosted color saturation. * I wouldn't mind getting my Vizio P series calibrated, the Vizio has one of the MOST accessible calibration menu on pretty much any tv, and see what it looks like, but I would be pissed to pay that money and then NOT like the picture.*


Yes, it's true, calibrating a Vizio is much easier than some other brands because of the way the app lets you enter settings into a table, instead of having to fumble with the remote control and on-screen menus, which is just a miserable experience.


----------



## liffie420

imagic said:


> Yes, it's true, calibrating a Vizio is much easier than some other brands because of the way the app lets you enter settings into a table, instead of having to fumble with the remote control and on-screen menus, which is just a miserable experience.


I was surprised when I got my first one just how MANY settings are readily available in the picture menu and not hidden in some developer or calibrator type set up where you have to do certain things to even gain access to the settings.


----------



## IronManFan

dcnblues said:


> Laughed out loud for the first time in a few days. Thanks.


 happy I could bring a moment's respite.


----------



## Steve544

I have the 85" Sony 950G and while it was really excellent out of the box, the calibrator did improve things. He spent a long time here and his fee was reasonable. Here are some of the charts he posted to me later on.


----------



## imagic

Steve544 said:


> I have the 85" Sony 950G and while it was really excellent out of the box, the calibrator did improve things. He spent a long time here and his fee was reasonable. Here are some of the charts he posted to me later on.


So, I don't want to be critical of the person who performed this calibration. But I am, to a point, forced to do so because it speaks directly to the point I was attempting to make with this article. Here's why... https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x950g

Scroll down to the "pre calibration" chart on rtings. with a starting point of "Custom" mode, these are the pre-calibration numbers: "White Balance dE 0.94, Color dE 1.58, Gamma 2.19,. Color Temperature 6493 K" - these numbers are on the verge of being "calibrated right out of the box" and actually quite close to your post calibration numbers.

Now, it seems to me that your calibrator measured some other picture mode that is not nearly as accurate out-of-the-box. It makes for an impressive "look at what a great job I did fixing this horrible error" but the whole point of my article is that TVs like the X950G do measure well out of the box, if you pick the right picture mode.

Because rtings buys its TVs, rather than accepting cherry picked samples from manufacturers, it's reasonable to think that the Custom mode on your TV is also highly accurate without any calibration. Having said that, the 75" X950G I reviewed last year also had excellent color accuracy right out of the box and only required minor tweaking to bring it to a fully calibrated state - I wish we knew which picture mode was used for the pre calibration chart on your TV.


----------



## tokerblue

dcnblues said:


> This is too complacent. The problem is that people, and especially kids, grow to prefer what they've been exposed to. There was a Stanford study on audio which I'm sure translates to visual reproduction in which it was clearly shown that given a choice between crappy ear bud sound and high end headphones, kids preferred the crappy sound. Same deal with heavy bass and overly produced / equalized sound in relation to high fidelity.
> 
> 
> 
> When people watch movies / tv on screens with heavily altered signals because screen manufacturers need to (ironically) jack up synthetic modifications to make gaming look more real, or because they think they're supposed to prefer the 'loudness wars' of uber bright 'display settings' (the better to seem brighter / crisper in comparison to competitor's screens at Costco or wherever), it's a problem.


I'm not sure how that changes what I wrote. The whole point of an ISF calibration is to make your TV as accurate to the standard as possible. Whether or not the colors look more pleasing isn't the point for people who want a calibration.

For me, I want the picture as accurate as possible. Some movies are ugly, but it's usually the intent of the director. But a majority of movies look fantastic.


----------



## akosoft

I've got a lg c9 oled. I had to lower brighness to 48 and colors as well to my liking. Oled lamp 67. Prior to this Dolby Vision was to red. Now i'm very happy with the result. I normaly use isf dark.


----------



## lumper

Necessary? No, probably not.
I do plan to have mine done later this year hopefully when things return to normal somewhat.
I just want to see what a quality tv properly calibrated looks like just once in my life.
The idea of having everything set to reference level standards is exciting to me.

After watching a couple of calibrators at work on similar tvs on youtube, I was sad to see in some cases things like Dolby Vision pre calibration.
It looks out of whack to me and in need of dialing in, once it was done and they show the post calibration numbers for grey scale and black levels, etc.. was enough to show me I really want to have a decent tv calibrated to bring out all of its potential.


----------



## lumper

GalvatronType_R said:


> I had my OLED calibrated by a local big box technician who was ISF certified. He spent an hour on the TV and went on his way and I was not pleased with the result. Was the picture “reference?” I guess it was. But was it pleasing? No.
> 
> The blacks were way too dark which crushed shadow detail. Sure some HDR material got some color pop but as soon as I watched broadcast or played a game or watched anything in SDR, the picture just didn’t look right. So I changed the settings back to something that might not be “reference” but is pleasing to me.
> 
> Lastly, I think there is some placebo effect/justify my purchase thing going on here. People who buy $100,000 speaker cables don’t want to hear that they got played, or people who spent $500+ on a calibration don’t want to hear that calibration is purely optional and subjective, just like the guy down the street with the white indoor sunglasses, popped collar and too much hair product doesn’t want to hear that there are cheaper cars that can outrun his M4.


A full calibration or a 3500 point calibration anyway should take around 4 or 5 hours to complete, the few I have witnessed and watched on videos took at least 4 hours.
I never heard of a calibration that took 1 hour.


----------



## lumper

New24K said:


> This is all rather funny, really... do you want what someone says you are supposed to like - or do you want what you like...?
> 
> A lot (most?) of people (non-videophiles) don't like the look of a "properly" calibrated TV.
> 
> I was at a Magnolia store years ago looking for my first upper-level TV and there was a setup there showing off a calibrated TV vs. a non-calibrated TV.
> 
> The rep asked me which TV I thought looked better - and I quickly picked the one that looked better to me - it was the un-calibrated one.
> 
> He said that almost everyone picks the un-calibrated one.
> 
> The calibrated one looked dark, washed out, dull, lifeless, etc.
> 
> Just like the THX mode on my first upper-level TV.


this is partly true and partly misleading.

Yes some people are so used to saturated colors that to them a properly calibrated tv's colors can seem off or bland in certain cases, BUT, IMO, grey scale, shadow detail as a result of black levels, etc.. are going to look better regardless of your preference in color temperatures and saturation levels


----------



## lumper

Edgar Reyes said:


> imagic said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Sounds to me like the person doing the calibrating did not know what they were doing. *
> 
> To me, someone with an untrained eye who enjoys what in my eyes looks like a good picture, I have always kept away from engaging a professional calibrator. Reason: How do I know that the person calibrating my television is an actual "Good" professional calibrator rather than a hobbyist with some equipment, software and the opportunity to make some $$$? Please don't get me wrong; I know that you do not become "good " at anything overnight. But, I would really feel stupid if I pay someone $500.00 USD ( a got a quote from someone), to come into my home, calibrated my TV only to find later that this person did not know what they were doing.
> 
> Just as an example: I have tried enabling Netflix calibrated mode on my Z9G when watching an episode of "Lost in Space". Like I have said, my eyes are untrained, but I do not enjoy the much darker picture. In other words, the picture sucks. Am I missing something here? Is that the kind of picture I should be expecting after professional calibration? Should I instead try the expert 1 and 2 modes that someone mentioned in a reply? I would like to have my TV calibrated, but I need an idea as to where to find a qualified calibrator in my area.
> 
> To that end, is there a website or online database where one could find reviews of professional calibrators for City/State/Area?
> 
> Thank you for any advise / guidance.
> Ed
> 
> 
> 
> The calibrators in my area have web pages where you can look them up, their history, education, experience etc.. is all there for you to view, you can also look at references, etc..It seems pretty easy to check on a calibrator, if they have years of experience with references etc.
Click to expand...


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## p5browne

My first THX certified calibrator, left such a mess (With a hefty bill) on 3 of my sets, i hunkered down and learned to do it my self with the proper equipment and meters. This started 14 years ago when Calman was geared just to Sonys and Samsungs. I had an LG - it came out looking Yellow. First Spectro was the the i1Pro that had to be initialized to it's white spot every 10 minutes - not fun! Now days software and meters are far superior, and the TV, once calibrated, looks far more Natural. i1Pro2 - now goes 120 minutes plus after initializing to the base White spot. Profiling to the i1Display Pro is now much easier, and more accurate.


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## Cal68

Chirosamsung said:


> Does Chad B ever come to Greater Toronto area?





p5browne said:


> Is he even going anywhere these days ?


Chad B was scheduled to come and calibrate my JVC projector and sound system next week but alas, his tour has been postponed for obvious reasons. I hope that it does not take too long before he can reschedule the visit.

Cal68


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## imagic

lumper said:


> Edgar Reyes said:
> 
> 
> 
> The calibrators in my area have web pages where you can look them up, their history, education, experience etc.. is all there for you to view, you can also look at references, etc..It seems pretty easy to check on a calibrator, if they have years of experience with references etc.
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt, if you're going to get into the calibration business, you have to present a professional image and provide people with justification for spending the money on you. Ultimately, positive references and word-of-mouth and accumulated experience will allow such a calibrator to charge more than geek squad or some hobbyist dilettante who decides to dabble.
> 
> Another thing to look for is equipment, specifically to ensure that the calibrator has a spectrophotometer with which to profile their colorimeter. For critical work, having high quality measurement gear that is properly calibrated is a must. To do this at a high level, especially for reference quality displays in critical applications such as dedicated home theater, you have to put a significant investment into the software and the hardware.
Click to expand...


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## lumper

imagic said:


> lumper said:
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt, if you're going to get into the calibration business, you have to present a professional image and provide people with justification for spending the money on you. Ultimately, positive references and word-of-mouth and accumulated experience will allow such a calibrator to charge more than geek squad or some hobbyist dilettante who decides to dabble.
> 
> Another thing to look for is equipment, specifically to ensure that the calibrator has a spectrophotometer with which to profile their colorimeter. For critical work, having high quality measurement gear that is properly calibrated is a must. To do this at a high level, especially for reference quality displays in critical applications such as dedicated home theater, you have to put a significant investment into the software and the hardware.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a good point I forgot to mention, on the sites I looked at they all listed their current equipment and as they have upgraded over the years I am sure this reflects those changes.
Click to expand...


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## tokerblue

Cal68 said:


> Chad B was scheduled to come and calibrate my JVC projector and sound system next week but alas, his tour has been postponed for obvious reasons. I hope that it does not take too long before he can reschedule the visit.


ChadB calibrated my TV. He does great work.

I was going to buy a 77" OLED in the near future, but the thought of going from a calibrated TV to one with out of the box settings isn't so appealing. I'll now probably wait until calibrators start touring again before jumping in. I'll just have to live with a 65" OLED for the near future. First world problems.


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## Cal68

tokerblue said:


> ChadB calibrated my TV. He does great work.
> 
> I was going to buy a 77" OLED in the near future, but the thought of going from a calibrated TV to one with out of the box settings isn't so appealing. I'll now probably wait until calibrators start touring again before jumping in. I'll just have to live with a 65" OLED for the near future. First world problems.


Yes, first world problems indeed! Chad B calibrated my previous projector and so I was looking forward to being wowed by his work again. Oh well, as Dr. Tony Fauchi says, the virus will determine the timeline! 

Cal68


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## Grabber5.0

Meh


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## teetertotter

NO, The factory presets you can CHOOSE from these days, are just great out of the box. I have mine set for both movie and TV programming. No muss..No Fuss


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## imagic

teetertotter said:


> NO, The factory presets you can CHOOSE from these days, are just great out of the box. I have mine set for both movie and TV programming. No muss..No Fuss


That's pretty much what I'm getting at, today's TVs are much improved over how it used to be, even not so long ago. Simply using the appropriate preset is one of the biggest "improvements" a typical consumer can make in terms of improving their viewing experience, And yep, it costs nothing extra and is as convenient as picking the right picture mode through the menu. I still wish there was a dedicated button on remote controls that let you cycle through picture modes, like you find with some projectors.


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## p5browne

After 1000 hours of usage, there will be changes to electronics values. Some may notice changes in the PQ, and others, like my wife, would never notice unless extreme!


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## deucevantage

BiggAW said:


> It's idiotic not to calibrate. Whether you need a professional calibration or not is a whole different discussion. I've had good results using the calibrations posted here and adjusting them a bit by eyeballing it- not the most scientific method, but it noticeably improved the performance from when the TV came out of the box.


I dont agree- one thing that is not being articulated is there are calibrations and calibrators and there are calibrations and calibrators. And $600 is NOT a trivial outlay even for a decent set $~3000. If you are watching exclusively movies in a dedicated darkened theater on a projector , OF course a GOOD calibration within reason (


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## gajCA

Nothing was more dramatic than the pre and post calibration of my rear projection HDTV in the last decade.

Jaw dropping.

My current TV, after a bit of tweaking by myself, looks so much better than that calibrated TV that I haven't bothered.

Apples and Oranges, I know, but we are also watching less movies, especially when it is completely dark, than we used to.

If I had a dedicated home theater with a projector I think I'd absolutely do it.


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## Panson

Adjustment = Free; Calibration = Money. I'm reluctant to do the latter.


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## BiggAW

deucevantage said:


> I dont agree- one thing that is not being articulated is there are calibrations and calibrators and there are calibrations and calibrators. And $600 is NOT a trivial outlay even for a decent set $~3000. If you are watching exclusively movies in a dedicated darkened theater on a projector , OF course a GOOD calibration within reason (


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## p5browne

If not getting calibrated, try finding 3 or 4 settings from other sources for your model, and try each to see which is the best fit.
Once calibrated and you get use to it, there's no going back. Skin color off ? I pull out the meter , laptop and software and get my skin color tone back.
Currently looking at the new i1Display Pro Plus with the higher nit level (2000). Got amazon price down in Canada, and now wife wants to buy it for Fathers Day - nice - free to me!


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## smile

p5browne said:


> To many, getting use to a calibrated set, is like learning to like olives. (Which I still don't) Once addicted to a calibrated set, you never go back. Sunglasses required when visiting local Audio/Video stores.
> 
> When I calibrate my set, I've learned it hasn't looked quite right until the set settles in: 30 minutes to 2 hours later? Next day?
> But, I always do a fine tune the next day and this now brings out the best. Which leads to the above posting - a set CANNOT be calibrated properly in an hour!
> 
> Many have used my settings, and to them I've always said that my settings might work quite well on their set, will work with some additional tweaking, or just plain won't work at all. NONE will look like mine with my settings !
> 
> Despite TVs having the same model #, all have differences between the panels, some actually have different manufacturer's panels, time of usage affects component values, is the manufacturer using same settings on all sets, or actually some kind of calibration for each.
> 
> To each their own. Who's happier, that chap going down the street, big boom box on his shoulder, blaring out at 50% distortion, big smile on his face, or the audiophile who hears minute scratches on his vinyl record, and it's driving him crazy.
> 
> Then there's my wife - it has color, makes noise and plays what I want - leave it alone.


"Then there's my wife - it has color, makes noise and plays what I want - leave it alone."
I tell my wife she is watching SD instead of the same HD content on a digital channel. She doesn't care enough to change the channel, or remember it.


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## Panson

smile said:


> "Then there's my wife - it has color, makes noise and plays what I want - leave it alone."
> I tell my wife she is watching SD instead of the same HD content on a digital channel. She doesn't care enough to change the channel, or remember it.


Now, about the oil in the car.


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## Hayabusa03

IronManFan said:


> Some of us have no choice but to calibrate, because we have psychological disorders that prevent us from enjoying something that isn't performing at its optimum level. I have a 2018 Q9FN, and it just. Never. Looked. Right. Being OCD, the picture flaws were like a drip keeping me awake at night. (Wife didn't notice, couldn't care less, worried about my mental health) I spent countless hours tinkering, tweaking, using other people's settings. At a certain point the time spent became untenable. One visit from Chad B, and now I can finally just enjoy the TV for what it is with all of its strengths and imperfections. (Wife admitted picture looks better). Was it expensive? Yes. Was it worth it? Oh, hell yes.





Women are a trip, I have had a total 3 displays, a Sony CRT, Panasonic plasma and an Epson 5040UB faux 4K projector professionally calibrated and in all the years my GF has never once said the picture looks good or the home theater sounds great, to her it's all noise and a picture albeit on a larger screen. I have recently purchased my first OLED LG 65CXPUA and I'm seriously debating whether I should calibrate it or not, the Film maker mode, Cinema, and ISF both dark and light room in my opinion are pretty close to spot on. And frankly, it's a guy thing, the women frankly could care less but you gotta luv em, they balance us out.


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## fookoo_2010

Take into consideration in this discussion, that a calibration is suppose to match whatever the person doing the transfer and tweaking onto a supposedly calibrated display sees. That particular look will look very similar to what one sees in a theater: a dimmer picture. If you don't want that look, then don't have a calibration run. So that a calibration will lower the brightness that is probably inherent to whatever display is being calibrated. But it will be more accurate to how the movie looks like in a good theater. A properly calibrated display will show more detail and color gradation than an uncalibrated display. Of course, this all depends, if one wants a calibration, on who one chooses to do the calibration and I don't mean Best Buy's Geek Squad. The best way to see this is to sit through an actual calibration where you know what the display looked like before and then immediately after the calibration. And one should, hopefully, see a night and day difference between the two.


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## Panson

fookoo_2010 said:


> Take into consideration in this discussion, that a calibration is suppose to match whatever the person doing the transfer and tweaking onto a supposedly calibrated display sees. * That particular look will look very similar to what one sees in a theater: a dimmer picture. If you don't want that look, then don't have a calibration run. So that a calibration will lower the brightness that is probably inherent to whatever display is being calibrated. *But it will be more accurate to how the movie looks like in a good theater. A properly calibrated display will show more detail and color gradation than an uncalibrated display. Of course, this all depends, if one wants a calibration, on who one chooses to do the calibration and I don't mean Best Buy's Geek Squad. The best way to see this is to sit through an actual calibration where you know what the display looked like before and then immediately after the calibration. And one should, hopefully, see a night and day difference between the two.


That's fair assessment, not meaning to lump all calibrators into one boat. Unless a calibrator is given owner preference, dimmer will likely be the result.

I've never understood the considerable love for dimmer or cinema mode in HT, because that's usually what's seen in theaters. Muddy color, I call it, not seeing much gradation in either setting. I may be too harsh.


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## imagic

fookoo_2010 said:


> Take into consideration in this discussion, that a calibration is suppose to match whatever the person doing the transfer and tweaking onto a supposedly calibrated display sees. That particular look will look very similar to what one sees in a theater: a dimmer picture. If you don't want that look, then don't have a calibration run. So that a calibration will lower the brightness that is probably inherent to whatever display is being calibrated. But it will be more accurate to how the movie looks like in a good theater. A properly calibrated display will show more detail and color gradation than an uncalibrated display. Of course, this all depends, if one wants a calibration, on who one chooses to do the calibration and I don't mean Best Buy's Geek Squad. The best way to see this is to sit through an actual calibration where you know what the display looked like before and then immediately after the calibration. And one should, hopefully, see a night and day difference between the two.





Panson said:


> That's fair assessment, not meaning to lump all calibrators into one boat. Unless a calibrator is given owner preference, dimmer will likely be the result.
> 
> I've never understood the considerable love for dimmer or cinema mode in HT, because that's usually what's seen in theaters. Muddy color, I call it, not seeing much gradation in either setting. I may be too harsh.



In my adventures through the world of AV and cinema, I've encountered enough A-list movie directors, calibration professionals, display engineers, cinematographers, professional calibrators (plus chatted with Joel Silver numerous times on these topics), etc. etc. etc. that have all influenced my opinion on this.

Here are some thoughts: Getting the white/gray balance "perfect" and really nailing the color temp. is a fundamental part of calibration that yields the greatest dividend. This is not a matter of taste. Adjusting gamma and brightness for the environment is also largely driven by circumstance not taste, but there is room for preference here.

Reality for of all the AV world is that the "marketing" always tries to frame technological limitations in a positive light, when in reality the limitation is just a detriment. Now that there's Dolby Cinema and IMAX, it becomes clear that given a choice, a film director will master a movie to take advantage of additional projector brightness and dynamic range, if it's available.

SDR calibration done to ISF or THX standards should still account for the room brightness, and if the lighting changes then two calibrations are in order (if the user can remember to use them).


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## fookoo_2010

imagic said:


> Reality for of all the AV world is that the "marketing" always tries to frame technological limitations in a positive light, when in reality the limitation is just a detriment. Now that there's Dolby Cinema and IMAX, it becomes clear that given a choice, a film director will master a movie to take advantage of additional projector brightness and dynamic range, if it's available.


Laser projection in Dolby Cinema dramatically changes the brightness issue. Even more so with 3D dual laser projection, which is probably now and in the past a rarity.


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## Kid Poker

for calibration junkies id say the answer to the question is obvious, to the avg user absolutely cinema preset is fine and dandy, to the layman they wouldnt even notice a differnece.


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## Kid Poker

BiggAW said:


> It's idiotic not to calibrate. Whether you need a professional calibration or not is a whole different discussion. I've had good results using the calibrations posted here and adjusting them a bit by eyeballing it- not the most scientific method, but it noticeably improved the performance from when the TV came out of the box.


whats the difference between your calibration and say a movie preset i bet the avg user if they went to the bathroom and you changed the settings that they wouldnt notice the difference


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## Kid Poker

its like bias lighting its a placebo, yea it looks cool ive got the media light and yea it offers no benefit to a salt lamp i had behind the tv.
theoretically speaking yea sure if i take a on/off photo i can see it but real world full motion, i dont see one ounce of difference


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## ebrodnick

The biggest issue I am having is actually finding quality ISF calibration in the Cincinnati/Northern KY area. I've gone the Geek route in the past and that has been a disaster. And, those who used to do it no longer do it because the market for it is so small. So there's that..... _*So, Mark, if you are ever in the are, I'll hire you!*_


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## fredxr2d2

ebrodnick said:


> The biggest issue I am having is actually finding quality ISF calibration in the Cincinnati/Northern KY area. I've gone the Geek route in the past and that has been a disaster. And, those who used to do it no longer do it because the market for it is so small. So there's that..... _*So, Mark, if you are ever in the are, I'll hire you!*_


Have you tried contacting Chad B? You may have to wait a little bit, but he is still touring, as far as I know. hdtvbychadb.com


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## Stephen Hopkins

I've had a dedicated front-projection theater (with many equipment iterations) for going on 15 years now. I've always been of the opinion that if you've spent less than $2k on the display (which is every display I've ever owned), spending $500 for _isf _calibration was too large an outlay to justify the improvements over a disc-based self-calibration. _isf _calibration is something I'd always wanted to pony up for but had never been able to personally justify the cost due to the budget nature of my equipment. Fast forward to Monday when I had my $700 refurb Epson HC4000 _isf _calibrated by Charles from CineTune in Atlanta... my opinion has made a complete 180* turn. 

Charles was phenomenal in talking through goals/expectations, explaining the process (including the importance of profiling the colorimeter specific to the room/screen using a spectroradiometer), indulging my enthusiast-driven questions and random discussions, aided in making mounting changes that weren't necessarily in the purview of the calibration itself (though aided in getting the best results), made adjustments to the picture controls of my UHD BD player to compensate for some minor skew it was introducing, and took the time for post-calibration viewing of some of his and my favorite demo scenes. His time and dedication to not just getting the Max and Average dE below 3, but to absolutely minimize it (chasing his tail, as he sometimes called it) was thoroughly impressive (yielding SDR average dE under 1.4 for both color and grayscale, and 2/2.8 for HDR respectively)... he admittedly could have made further improvements to HDR, but I had a hard-stop at _only _8 hours of his time... and he was more than willing to keep going if I'd been able to. 

I was definitely surprised by how far off my own disc-based calibration was for SDR. I was thoroughly impressed by the post-calibration SDR picture. I was blown-the-f*#& away by the improvements in HDR color, black level, brightness, etc. While due to some details I won't dive into, I didn't pay full-price for the calibration... I would now and absolutely will in the future if/when I make a projector change in this room (which hopefully won't be for several years to come). It has honestly changed my view on whether chasing HDR on front-projection is even worth it... it now most certainly is. 

I really can't say enough about the process and the results. I can't speak for all _isf _techs, but if you're lucky enough to get someone as knowledgable, dedicated, and enjoyable to work with as Charles from CineTune, you will not regret the experience and also won't second guess the price or the results. While I may not be ready to spend the $400 going rate for my secondary displays (seeing as none of them cost that much to begin with, and the two I would consider having it done on didn't even cost that much combined), I have no regrets and there is no doubt that anyone with even a $500 projector would benefit more from a $500 calibration than they would by doubling their equipment spend.


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