# The Unoffical source for everything HDBaseT



## ktrdsl23

Without a central location on AVS for information on HDBaseT I thought it would be a good idea to gather information, reviews and thoughts on one of the most exciting prospects in the A/V world. I decided to post this in the HDMI forum since it seems most applicable here but hopefully soon there will be a forum dedicated solely to HDBaseT.

*Background:*

HDBaseT was created to right many of the wrongs of HDMI. HDMI has become one of the most hated formats in the history of audio and video. While the passage of HD audio and video was welcomed, the difficulties with the HDCP handshake, loss of signal at larger distances and lack of termination options made HDMI a difficult cable to work with.


HDBaseT uses a proprietary version of Pulse Amplitude Modulation to pass the HD video and audio (and more) up to 100 meters or 330 feet without any loss of quality over a standard Cat5e or Cat6 cable.


HDBaseT can pass:

Uncompressed High Definition Video including 3D and 4K resolution (up to 10.2 Gbps)

Standard HD audio formats

100Mb Ethernet

Power over Cable (up to 100 watts)

Various control signals including IR, RS232 and CEC


As of early 2012, HDBaseT is mainly being used as a way of sending HDMI over a single Cat5e/6 cable and in HDMI switchers but will hopefully one day be included directly into A/V devices using the standard RJ-45 connector.

*Important Links*
HDBaseT Homepage 
HDBaseT on Wikipedia 
Valens Semiconductor 
HDBaseT Technical Info 

*AVS Threads*
Support an HDBaseT forum on AVS 
2 Cables vs. one 
Central Rack HDBaseT setup 
HDBaseT Hopes to Take on HDMI in the Living Room 

*FAQ*
What is HDBaseT?

HDBaseT technology is a consumer electronic (CE) connectivity technology optimized for whole-home and commercial multimedia distribution. HDBaseT can connect all the entertainment devices in a setting through its 5Play feature set, converging uncompressed full HD digital video, audio, 100BaseT Ethernet, power over cable and various control signals through a single 100m/328ft CAT5e/6 cable with RJ45 connectors.

Why is HDBaseT necessary when we have HDMI?

HDBaseT is can send uncompressed video and audio (and more) much longer distances than HDMI over cables that are probably already run throughout your home. It should also work better with the HDCP handshake if you are using devices such as AVRs and switches.

Is HDBaseT very expensive?

Like all new technologies cost is initially fairly high but should come down regularly. While Matrix Switches are still priced out of many individuals budgets, HDBaseT extenders have recently gone below the $200 price point which considering the price for long HDMI cables is actually quite reasonable.

HDBaseT sounds exciting, what can I do to help quicken its adoption?

The best way for HDBaseT to catch on is to spread the information about it and pass on the excitement to more people. Start by requesting an official forum dedicated to HDBaseT at AVS by responding in the Support an HDBaseT forum on AVS thread. If you have the need to send HDMI over a long distance purchase an HDBaseT extender and report back with your review.

Will HDBaseT work with patch panels and wall blocks?

Yes, according to this post , this post and this post , HDBaseT should work through patch panels and wall blocks without issue.

Will HDBaseT work better using Cat6 than Cat5e?

From Colm, "The difference between the two is that Cat 6 has to meet tighter specifications for crosstalk and other things that affect performance. So, all other things being equal, Cat 6 might work in some cases where Cat 5e might not. That said, if Cat 5e works, replacing it with Cat 6 won't improve the picture. If the options are installing Cat 5e or Cat 6, it is pretty much a no-brainer to go with Cat 6 because there is little difference in price."

This is all great in theory but will HDBaseT ever really take off?

While none of us know for sure the future of HDBaseT it certainly has the potential for being the new standard for connecting devices in the home. Looking at the Membership List you can see that three of the four original members were Samsung, Sony and LG, the top three TV manufacturers world wide (source) . With that type of muscle behind the technology we have every reason to believe that HDBaseT is here to stay.

What is HDBaseT-Lite?
See Post #3.


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## ktrdsl23

*HDBaseT Products and Reviews*

*HDMI Extenders*
Monoprice Extender ------- Reviews 
Monoprice Extender with Ethernet ------ Reviews 
Atlona HDMI Extender 
Gefen Extra Long HDMI Extender -------- Brief Review 
TE HD1 Professional 
Kordz Extender 
Octava HDCATS-100 

*HDBaseT Splitters*
Monoprice 1x4 HDBaseT splitter 
Monoprice 1x8 HDBaseT splitter 


*HDBaseT Matrix Switches*
Atlona HDBaseT 8x8 Matrix Switch 
Atlona HDBaseT 16x16 Matrix Switch 
Atlona HDBaseT 4x4 Matrix Switch - To be introduced at ISE 2012 (1/31/12-2/2/12)
HDanywhere 4x4 and 8x8 Matrix 




*Other HDBaseT Solutions*
Crestron Digital Media 
AMX Matrix Switch 

_Note, Crestron and AMX require professional programming to incorporate their products_


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## ktrdsl23

*HDBaseT Lite:*

Valens Semiconductor Introduces HDBaseT-Lite


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## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ktrdsl23* /forum/post/21443472
> 
> 
> ...three of the four original members were Samsung, Sony and LG, the top three TV manufacturers world wide...



Well, two anyway. Sony Pictures doesn't manufacture TVs. I think they are in it because of content protection concerns. The fourth member is Valens Semiconductor, the originator of the technology with obvious interests. And so far, neither Samsung nor LG has a product that I am aware of that incorporates HDBaseT. All the real interest so far seems to be from manufacturers of "extender" devices


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## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ktrdsl23* /forum/post/21443472
> 
> Will HDBaseT work better using Cat6 than Cat5e?



The difference between the two is that Cat 6 has to meet tighter specifications for crosstalk and other things that affect performance. So, all other things being equal, Cat 6 might work in some cases where Cat 5e might not. That said, if Cat 5e works, replacing it with Cat 6 won't improve the picture. If the options are installing Cat 5e or Cat 6, it is pretty much a no-brainer to go with Cat 6 because there is little difference in price.


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## Kei Clark

I can see how home integrators would like this format for some devices, but I can't see this going mainstream....it's too complex with too many variables for the typical user.


PoE is compelling, but not for a typical consumer either. I don't think it will make it into any TVs anytime soon. I saw no references to content protection either, though I'm sure it will have to comply with HDCP somehow.


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## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kei Clark* /forum/post/21443983
> 
> 
> I saw no references to content protection either, though I'm sure it will have to comply with HDCP somehow.



HDMI and HDCP just ride on top of HDBaseT, unchanged from their current implementation. HDMI/HDCP in->HDMI/HDCP out.


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## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kei Clark* /forum/post/21443983
> 
> 
> ...I can't see this going mainstream....it's too complex with too many variables for the typical user.



I think it is totally transparent to the end user. Plug in a Cat 5e/6 cable, that is it. No different than plugging in a HDMI cable. I think the reason you won't see it in mainstream products is that it doesn't offer a significant advantage to the manufacturer. They still have to incorporate HDMI, plus they have to incorporate additional hardware to support HDBaseT.


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## Kei Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/21447061
> 
> 
> HDMI and HDCP just ride on top of HDBaseT, unchanged from their current implementation. HDMI/HDCP in->HDMI/HDCP out.



That woud be true in extenders, but doesn't cover if HDBaseT was an actual connection on the source or the display, right?


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## Kei Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/21447110
> 
> 
> I think it is totally transparent to the end user. Plug in a Cat 5e/6 cable, that is it. No different than plugging in a HDMI cable. I think the reason you won't see it in mainstream products is that it doesn't offer a significant advantage to the manufacturer. They still have to incorporate HDMI, plus they have to incorporate additional hardware to support HDBaseT.



If you're using it only as an A/V connection, and even the ethernet, that maybe a benefit. But to use the full capability, including the PoE that's supposed to power displays on the other end, that creeps into complexity. And what would be controlling all the variables for all those features?


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## qz3fwd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/21447061
> 
> 
> HDMI and HDCP just ride on top of HDBaseT, unchanged from their current implementation. HDMI/HDCP in->HDMI/HDCP out.



Speaking of insidious DRM, you are saying there are not ANY additional DRM countermeasures built into HDBaseT? Not even somthing like a maximum of ~ 6 hops to prevent all of those neighborhoods who will run cables from house to houses and "steal/share" all of hollywood precious content?










If that is the case and there is no additional DRM layers, then the content owners will never "bless" the interconnect for use in consumer devices.


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## qz3fwd

Unfortunately the specifications appear to be under NDA and require a annual $10,000 "membership" fee.


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## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kei Clark* /forum/post/21447117
> 
> 
> That woud be true in extenders, but doesn't cover if HDBaseT was an actual connection on the source or the display, right?



I don't see the difference. HDBaseT is not a replacement for HDMI. Take a look at the HDBaseT chipset pinouts. The output from the receiver is HDMI. The video is still sent a raster line at a time. The source and the sink still have to negotiate the details. HDCP encryption still applies. All HDBaseT does is overcome the distance limitation built into HDMI, that and add a few additional capabilities like power


IIRC Valens demonstrated a prototype TV with a HDBaseT input compete with power over HDBaseT at CES last year. The TV was connected to a HDBaseT switch. The source devices were connected to the switch via HDMI. Move that to commercial gear and I think what you wind up with is the addition of a HDBaseT input to some TVs and a HDBaseT output to some AVRs. I don't think we will ever see it on source devices.


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## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *qz3fwd* /forum/post/21447659
> 
> 
> Speaking of insidious DRM, you are saying there are not ANY additional DRM countermeasures built into HDBaseT?



No, I didn't say anything about that one way or the other.


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## Kei Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/21447819
> 
> 
> I don't see the difference. HDBaseT is not a replacement for HDMI. Take a look at the HDBaseT chipset pinouts. The output from the receiver is HDMI. The video is still sent a raster line at a time. The source and the sink still have to negotiate the details. HDCP encryption still applies. All HDBaseT does is overcome the distance limitation built into HDMI, that and add a few additional capabilities like power
> 
> 
> IIRC Valens demonstrated a prototype TV with a HDBaseT input compete with power over HDBaseT at CES last year. The TV was connected to a HDBaseT switch. The source devices were connected to the switch via HDMI. Move that to commercial gear and I think what you wind up with is the addition of a HDBaseT input to some TVs and a HDBaseT output to some AVRs. I don't think we will ever see it on source devices.



Actually, yes. The poster is promoting HDBaseT be used as a connection type, which means it would supplant or complement HDMI. If that is the case, it would have to have it's own copy protection scheme.


What benefit would there be for a typical consumer if source devices don't utilize the features the cable type is touting? Other than the longer distance, that is.


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## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kei Clark* /forum/post/21449603
> 
> 
> What benefit would there be for a typical consumer if source devices don't utilize the features the cable type is touting? Other than the longer distance, that is.



Ah, that is the $64,000 question. Maybe that is why we don't see the big CE manufacturers adopting this technology yet.


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## Joe Fernand

HDBaseT has an imposed limitation of 100m - though you can cascade HDBaseT devices; not sure how many times is actually practical vs. theoretical! I've seen a x3 test rig.


There will be Display products with a single HDBaseT RJ45 connector for the installer market.


The various online webinars I've listened through do foresee manufacturers dropping HDMI Input/output sockets on some kit and adopting a purely RJ45 HDBaseT' landscape.


PoH (Power over HDBaseT) is going to be fun for Matrix developers to implement!!!


I've been using an HDBaseT extender at home on a ropey old bit of CAT5 (55m) carrying 1080i50 and 1080p24/60 for the last 10 months and it is very stable.


Joe


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## ktrdsl23

Is there anybody at CES who can comment on the presence of HDBaseT at the show? While I'm sure there are a lot of HDMI extenders using the technology, I'm particularly interested in switchers and other products with HDBaseT.


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## Joe Fernand

I'm not at the Show - though the HDBaseT Alliance have been promoting its presence at CES heavily to the Trade - they may be a good place to start for info on who is exhibiting what in terms of Switch and Distribution products incorporating HDBaseT.

http://ces12.mapyourshow.com/5_0/exh...exhid=T0008653 


Joe


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## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ktrdsl23* /forum/post/21443472
> 
> 
> Without a central location on AVS for information on HDBaseT I thought it would be a good idea to gather information, reviews and thoughts on one of the most exciting prospects in the A/V world.



It is nice that HDBaseT can go 100 meters but besides that what makes HDBaseT an exciting prospect? It is very expensive compared to HDMI and has only half the bandwidth of DisplayPort.


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## ktrdsl23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/21478764
> 
> 
> It is nice that HDBaseT can go 100 meters but besides that what makes HDBaseT an exciting prospect? It is very expensive compared to HDMI and has only half the bandwidth of DisplayPort.



Obviously just my own opinion but specifically that it can go 100 meters on the most common cable that is already run through most homes (cat5e). And from early reviews works as one would expect it to.


Price will likely come down over the next year or two and the current bandwidth of supporting 5play seems to be plenty future proof for a while.


I will admit that it is most exciting with respect to video distribution and clean installations. If you have all local sources and aren't worried about some exposed wiring (not wall mounting) than the benefits of HDBaseT decrease.


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## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ktrdsl23* /forum/post/21479253
> 
> 
> Obviously just my own opinion but specifically that it can go 100 meters on the most common cable that is already run through most homes (cat5e).



What percentage of homes in the United States are wired for Ethernet?




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ktrdsl23* /forum/post/21479253
> 
> 
> And from early reviews works as one would expect it to.



There are less than 20 HDBaseT products on the market which is a very, very small number when compared to the number of HDMI products that have been released. Even than one of the customer reviews of an HDBaseT extender mentions that he couldn't get it to work when it was used to connect to an AV receiver.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ktrdsl23* /forum/post/21479253
> 
> 
> Price will likely come down over the next year or two and the current bandwidth of supporting 5play seems to be plenty future proof for a while.



Just my opinion but HDBaseT having a bandwidth that is only half that of DisplayPort doesn't seem that future proof.


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## Joe Fernand

Some big bore conduit is the only way to be future proof' assuming you assume cables will always be involved!


HDBaseT is a big step forward for the Installer market where folk are having to deliver HDMI for customers who only have a single piece of wire pre-installed and or are having the usual HDMI nightmares with the more common HDMI over Twisted Pair solutions.


HDBaseT is not foolproof - HDCP, EDID, poor Source, Repeater and Sink firmware and other anomalies can still catch you out - though the instances are far rarer than with other point to point solutions for extending HDMI.


The price is coming down - partly due to new lower cost silicon and partly down to folk being able to take the decision on purchasing higher volumes of silicon as they see the Installer market adopt HDBaseT.


The current premium' you pay for HDBaseT is nothing compared with the number of lost man hours most installers will have suffered with other HDMI extender solutions.


DisplayPort can have 1000x the bandwidth - would make no difference it's not relevant as it hasn't had widespread adoption.


CAT6 may not be in every home but it is relatively simple to install into many homes.


Joe


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## Dizzman

crestron also makes extensive use of it. as do others.


cost is already coming down. new chipsets are going to offer lower cost solutions.


most of the major display players have HDBaseT products in the pipeline.


At Infocomm and Cedia, samsung had a prototype display in the HDBaseT booth. it has a single wire into it. it got video, internet, IR, serial, and all its power all from the single RJ45 connection on it.


another exciting aspect is that in matrixes and other products, solving EDID and HDCP issues is no longer an add on issue. it is baked right into the chipset. so the management of all this stuff gets easier and far more reliable.


i am the general manager of commercial products at Atlona. and i can tell you that this is a game changer. imagine if you wanted to put the 400 disk changer in the garage, or the sat receiver due to whatever reason. and all the wires you need to buy and then pull. add an HDBaseT extender set and one cat 5e cable and now it is in the garage increasing your overall WAF and you can control it via its remote in the living room with no xantech or anything else needed by using the two way IR. or since ethernet is there as well, via the ipad or whatever.


there is also a VERY exciting product roadmap moving forward from valens.


and we have not even started to talk about the things it does for commercial installs.


it is very exciting in all corners


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## Dizzman

as far as bandwidth, with 10.2 gig and the ability to handle 4k... seems to me that we are covered for quite a while.


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## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joe Fernand* /forum/post/21480595
> 
> 
> HDBaseT is a big step forward for the Installer market where folk are having to deliver HDMI for customers who only have a single piece of wire pre-installed and or are having the usual HDMI nightmares with the more common HDMI over Twisted Pair solutions.



HDBaseT works well as an HDMI extender but I don't think it has any chance of replacing HDMI.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joe Fernand* /forum/post/21480595
> 
> 
> DisplayPort can have 1000x the bandwidth - would make no difference it's not relevant as it hasn't had widespread adoption.



I would mention that DisplayPort has many more products on the market than HDBaseT.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dizzman* /forum/post/21482385
> 
> 
> At Infocomm and Cedia, samsung had a prototype display in the HDBaseT booth. it has a single wire into it. it got video, internet, IR, serial, and all its power all from the single RJ45 connection on it.



CE companies have also shown off prototype displays with DiiVA . In fact Samsung even released a few displays that had a DiiVA connection (the displays also had HDMI connections as well).




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dizzman* /forum/post/21482393
> 
> 
> as far as bandwidth, with 10.2 gig and the ability to handle 4k... seems to me that we are covered for quite a while.



10.2 Gbps is barely enough for 2160p30. On the other hand DisplayPort is currently capable of 21.6 Gbps and the recently released AMD Radeon 7970 can output 2160p60 over DisplayPort.


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## Dizzman

so obviously you are a massive fan of display port.


it is a great interface with great possibilities.


however if you want to go 100 metres, or via a repeater up to 900 metres over cat5e, then i wish you luck.


nobody suggested replacing hdmi. this is a transport mechanism for hdmi and a bunch of other stuff.


as a company that makes this stuff, we are very excited by it and are dropping much of our display port stuff as it seems to be going away. but we are expanding HDBaseT as fast as we can.


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## Joe Fernand

Hi Richard


Many folk seem to think HDBaseT is trying to replace' HDMI - that's not the case!


HDBaseT relies on HDMI it can't exist without it and as Dizzman says like it or not HDMI is here to stay - HDBaseT gives Installers and DIY'ers a fighting chance when it comes to running long run cables be it point-to-point, one-to-many or many-to-many.


DisplayPort has been a non-starter in the Ci market - it's simply failed to gain any traction or widespread adoption.


Joe


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## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dizzman* /forum/post/21485992
> 
> 
> nobody suggested replacing hdmi.



The original post sounded to me like it was promoting more than an HDMI extender:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ktrdsl23* /forum/post/21443472
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> HDBaseT was created to right many of the wrongs of HDMI.
> 
> ...
> 
> As of early 2012, HDBaseT is mainly being used as a way of sending HDMI over a single Cat5e/6 cable and in HDMI switchers but will hopefully one day be included directly into A/V devices using the standard RJ-45 connector.
> 
> ...
> HDBaseT Hopes to Take on HDMI in the Living Room
> 
> ...
> 
> The best way for HDBaseT to catch on is to spread the information about it and pass on the excitement to more people.
> 
> ...
> 
> While none of us know for sure the future of HDBaseT it certainly has the potential for being the new standard for connecting devices in the home.
> 
> ...





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dizzman* /forum/post/21485992
> 
> 
> as a company that makes this stuff, we are very excited by it and are dropping much of our display port stuff as it seems to be going away. but we are expanding HDBaseT as fast as we can.



DisplayPort is a computer interface and I don't think it even tried to compete with HDMI. DisplayPort though does look like it is on a path to replace VGA/DVI and there are over a hundred computer monitors with a DisplayPort input on the market.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joe Fernand* /forum/post/21486108
> 
> 
> Many folk seem to think HDBaseT is trying to replace' HDMI - that's not the case!
> 
> 
> HDBaseT relies on HDMI it can't exist without it and as Dizzman says like it or not HDMI is here to stay



There certainly are people who think that HDBaseT could replace HDMI and I have read plenty of online articles which promote that idea. Also you may be right that it isn't even technically possible. I have seen diagrams for HDBaseT ( such as this one ) in which it shows an HDMI chip connecting to the HDBaseT chip.


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## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/21489847
> 
> 
> There certainly are people who think that HDBaseT could replace HDMI and I have read plenty of online articles which promote that idea.



Check the dates on the articles. When HDBaseT was first announced, there were lots of writers for AV magazines that made that jumped to that conclusion. It became obvious real quick they didn't know what they were talking about. One just has to look at the pin outs of the Valens chips to see that HDMI is still there. Their current products aren't going to replace HDMI. Of course, they could have something in the works we don't know of that they hope will...


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## kertofer

Can you use multiple receivers with one hdbaset transmitter to distribute video over it?


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## Colm

HDBaseT is capable of sending the same signal to multiple daisy-chained displays. This is one of its advantages for commercial installations. It is also capable of sending multiple signals to different displays over a single cable. There isn't any hardware that takes advantage of the latter yet.


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## kertofer

Thanks Colm, I will touch base with the mono price folks and see if they have additional receivers for their unit available, tho would be exactly what I have been looking for!


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## Colm

You might want to ask specifically if their product will do what you want. HDBaseT is capable of supporting it. Whether a given product is capable or not is a different question. It is kind of like asking can HDMI support 1080p60 3D. The answer is yes. But not all equipment can support the required bit rate. You may have to look at products designed for the commercial market to get the functionality you want.


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## ktrdsl23

 HDBaseT Lite - New CEPro article which talks about the struggles of HDBaseT and a new iteration of it to attempt to reduce size and cost.


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## Gendal

My house is pretty much the worst case scenario for HDBaseT. Everything ran to the master closet on the 2nd floor in a 3600sqft house but I wanted it all in the garage so I pulled everything up to the attic then ran an additional 50ft of cable to the garage for every port in the house.


So the circuit path goes HDBaseT->Wall Jack->cat5e to attic->patch panel->cat6 to garage->patch panel->HDBaseT. So no chance in the world HDBaseT is going to work right, I would be lucky if I could get a good 10BaseT signal going.


I bought two HDBaseT products anyways, the KanexPro and the Atlona .


As HDMI extenders both work great and have performed flawlessly over the past 3 months I have owned them.


The Atlona however does not pass through ethernet reliably. It can barely make a dhcp connection, let alone stream anything. No difference if it's 300 feet or even just 2 feet of cat6 patch cable, ethernet doesn't work. The picture and sound however are flawless, as is is the bidirectional IR.


The KanexPro does a decent job of passing through ethernet and the picture is the same as the Atlona but the lack of bidirectional IR is annoying. The Atlona currently goes to a 55" LCD in the bedroom and the KanexPro goes to 1920x1200 monitor for a computer, with a TiVo, HTPC, and Office PC plugged into a cheapo 4x4 monoprice switch.


I need a third and soon a 4th extender so I am going to try the Monoprice ethernet version next. The Atlona and KanexPro both went up in price by almost a $100 since I bought them...


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## Colm

Another CES has come and gone without a major CE manufacturer adopting HDBaseT, just an announcement of a cheaper chip set with reduced capabilities. Seems like HDBaseT is destined for the niche CE market of HDMI extenders and maybe high end products installed by pros. I don't see how reducing the cost of something that manufacturers apparently don't see as a competitive advantage or required feature in the average TV is going to change anything. I think all the new chip set is going to do is eat into Valens' profit.


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## Gendal

Just got the Monoprice Ethernet model and it's identical down to the packaging to the KanexPro.


But less than half the price. $200 for a very forgiving one cable solution for HDMI, Ethernet, and IR is pretty good. If the IR was omnidirectional it would be perfect.


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## ktrdsl23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gendal* /forum/post/21518951
> 
> 
> Just got the Monoprice Ethernet model and it's identical down to the packaging to the KanexPro.
> 
> 
> But less than half the price. $200 for a very forgiving one cable solution for HDMI, Ethernet, and IR is pretty good. If the IR was omnidirectional it would be perfect.



I just ordered one of the monoprice models as well. I hope to split my HDMI from my HTPC to my current display and then to a second display through the HDBaseT extender. Should the HDMI splitter cause any issues with using one of these extenders?


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## kertofer

Have any of you guys used the Monoprice 4 way HDBaseT splitter? I was thinking of using that to split the signal from my cable box so I can watch football games on all of my TV's at the same time...


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## Gendal

Haven't tried any splitters, just the Monoprice 4x4 matrix. Works great (after a defective output on port 2 that Monoprice promptly replaced).


I just got my new 65" panny vt30 today and hooked up the new monoprice hdbaset extender and it worked right away.


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## Erik Garci




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kertofer* /forum/post/21523416
> 
> 
> Have any of you guys used the Monoprice 4 way HDBaseT splitter? I was thinking of using that to split the signal from my cable box so I can watch football games on all of my TV's at the same time...



Are you referring to this splitter?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 


I don't think it uses HDBaseT, since the price is so low. Also, the specs for it say 50 meters, but HDBaseT is supposed to be 100 meters.


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## kertofer

That is the splitter I am referring too, and in the description it states that it splits 1 input into 4 HDBaseT outputs. As to the difference, I can only suspect that it had something to do with the output power or internal bandwidth of the splitter.


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## ktrdsl23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Erik Garci* /forum/post/21537495
> 
> 
> Are you referring to this splitter?
> 
> http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2
> 
> 
> I don't think it uses HDBaseT, since the price is so low. Also, the specs for it say 50 meters, but HDBaseT is supposed to be 100 meters.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kertofer* /forum/post/21537557
> 
> 
> That is the splitter I am referring too, and in the description it states that it splits 1 input into 4 HDBaseT outputs. As to the difference, I can only suspect that it had something to do with the output power or internal bandwidth of the splitter.



I added links to these splitters (1x4 and 1x8) in the second post. Hopefully somebody will grab them and post a comment on how they work. The one review on monoprice for the 1x4 is strange in that it worked for a 50" tv but not a 60 or 65" tv. Assuming it is passing the same resolution to both TVs I don't know why screen size would have an impact.


----------



## Erik Garci




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kertofer* /forum/post/21537557
> 
> 
> That is the splitter I am referring too, and in the description it states that it splits 1 input into 4 HDBaseT outputs. As to the difference, I can only suspect that it had something to do with the output power or internal bandwidth of the splitter.



There is also the issue of price. This splitter costs less than their 1-to-1 HDBaseT kit. I would expect a true HDBaseT splitter to cost much more.


----------



## steelerdadof3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gendal* /forum/post/21524619
> 
> 
> Haven't tried any splitters, just the Monoprice 4x4 matrix. Works great (after a defective output on port 2 that Monoprice promptly replaced).
> 
> 
> I just got my new 65" panny vt30 today and hooked up the new monoprice hdbaset extender and it worked right away.



Is this the one you got?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 


I'm in need of 4 in / 3 out with 3D going to at least one TV and I've been looking at this one but not sure if it's what I need or not. How's it working out for you? How is yours setup?


----------



## ceejay185

Just wanted to report that I also got the new Monoprice HDBase-T extender and it also worked first time out of the box










Uverse/HTPC -> Denon 2310CI -> HDBase-T -> Sharp 60" AQUOS LC-60LE632U


The IR function works flawlessly with the U-Verse box, as well as with the HTPC and Denon.


I still want to split the HDMI signal 1 to 4, but think I'm going to have to wait until HDBase-T splitters become available. If a Monoprice rep is watching this thread, any idea on when this type product will be available?


----------



## ktrdsl23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceejay185* /forum/post/21545548
> 
> 
> Just wanted to report that I also got the new Monoprice HDBase-T extender and it also worked first time out of the box
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uverse/HTPC -> Denon 2310CI -> HDBase-T -> Sharp 60" AQUOS LC-60LE632U
> 
> 
> The IR function works flawlessly with the U-Verse box, as well as with the HTPC and Denon.
> 
> 
> I still want to split the HDMI signal 1 to 4, but think I'm going to have to wait until HDBase-T splitters become available. If a Monoprice rep is watching this thread, any idea on when this type product will be available?



According to their description, this splitter does exactly what you are asking for a very reasonable price. There were some questions if it is truly HDBaseT but I think you can get it and if it doesn't do what you want then return it. It clearly states HDBaseT though in the description. They also have a 1x8 model as well.


Next week Atlona should be introducing a 4x4 Matrix Switch that uses HDBaseT. They already have an 8x8 and 16x16 HDBaseT Matrix Switch.


----------



## ktrdsl23

I received my monoprice HDBaseT extender with ethernet today. I didn't have much time to test but I did quickly hook up my HTPC from my rack to my family room and it sent the video flawlessly. The computer was set to 1080p60 and 32bit color (is that the same as 36bit deep color?).


I wasn't sending over HD Audio nor did I test the ethernet pass through. I'm using Cat6 cable which I'd guess with turns is between 75-150'.


I'll post more thoughts after I have more time to do a thorough test.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ktrdsl23* /forum/post/21548425
> 
> 
> ...32bit color (is that the same as 36bit deep color?).



No, I believe it is the equivalent of 24-bit color.


----------



## kertofer

Deep Color is referred to in the HDMI spec as allowing the system to recognize and pass up to 16-bit color depth for rendering of billions of colors. The more colors the system can render the smoother the transitions are between colors, yielding a more natural picture.


----------



## Gendal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *steelerdadof3* /forum/post/21540955
> 
> 
> Is this the one you got?



No, I don't believe that one is HDBaseT. I went with HDBaseT because I needed the length due to the size of the house and two patch panels. I have this one:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 


It's controlled by RS232 and I only have two complaints about it. One, you can't power it on by RS232 and it doesn't have a discrete power on by IR either. This hasn't been an issue yet since even when the power cuts off it defaults to on. Two, it won't switch to the input unless it detects a signal. This means I have to make sure the HTPC is out of sleep mode before issuing the command to switch ports on the matrix, otherwise it won't take. Given the variable timing nature of a computer coming out of S3 sleep it's kind of annoying.


Those are two minor complaints, other than that I have been very happy with it. Haven't tried surround though, just 2 channel audio on all TVs, and they are all 1080p.


I did have one funny thing happen, that was more cool than anything. Every time the Samsung D8000 55" LCD was turned off in the bedroom it would turn off the Vt30 Panny in the living room downstairs. I finally tracked it down to a Samsung CEC HDMI signal, which means CEC flowed with out issue through the HDBaseT, the matrix, then back through another HDBaseT adapter. Didn't think it would work through the matrix, which is great news. Going to order one of those CEC USB adapters I think and play around with it since I don't have a good way of getting IR to the Panny.


Fixing that issue was as simple as turning off that CEC feature in the menu.


----------



## alk3997




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kertofer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Deep Color is referred to in the HDMI spec as allowing the system to recognize and pass up to 16-bit color depth for rendering of billions of colors. The more colors the system can render the smoother the transitions are between colors, yielding a more natural picture.



Except that no source material that I know of is encoded with the extra color depth. This means the disc player is the one adding the extra color information as an interpolation or extrapolation. Many people have reported less natural colors using deep color because it's only as good as the player's capabilities.


Until source material has the information, my recommendation is to leave deep color off.


----------



## ktrdsl23

Atlona announced a new 4x4 Matrix Switch using HDBaseT .


MSRP is $2299 but I don't think it includes any receivers.


They also released a new HDBaseT receiver . At the MSRP of $219.99 they must be feeling the heat of the monoprice extenders. This one doesn't pass 10/100 Ethernet.


Reading the sheets a little closer I'm wondering if these products are using HDBaseT Lite as they are advertising 200ft rather than 330ft.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ktrdsl23* /forum/post/21583199
> 
> 
> ...doesn't pass...Ethernet...200ft...



Sure sounds like Lite.


----------



## ktrdsl23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/21584917
> 
> 
> Sure sounds like Lite.



Yeah, you would think there would be some legal issues with marketing different solutions with different capabilities as being the same. I would imagine that using the "HDBaseT" name for your technology would require the 100M length but perhaps not. Will certainly make it confusing if more products come to market all being called HDBaseT.


----------



## cj43

Audio Authority has released their first HDBaseT product.

HBT200KIT HDBaseT Extender


----------



## Dizzman

HDBaseT lite is still HDBaseT. and they are using the Valens lower cost chipset.


they are fully compatible with all HDBaseT stuff, with the exception of no ethernet and shorter distance. we figured that for a home, only have a 70 metre range would be fine.


----------



## ktrdsl23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dizzman* /forum/post/21621939
> 
> 
> HDBaseT lite is still HDBaseT. and they are using the Valens lower cost chipset.
> 
> 
> they are fully compatible with all HDBaseT stuff, with the exception of no ethernet and shorter distance. we figured that for a home, only have a 70 metre range would be fine.



Ok, so you can confirm that the new Atlona products are using the HDBaseT Lite chipset?


And I believe you are saying that regular and lite HDBaseT products will be compatible? So if a TV in the future were to have the HDBaseT chipset and an RJ45 input it would work with either a regular or lite extender as long as the cable is the appropriate length for each product's specs?


It actually gets at something else I've wondered about these extenders. Would a sender and receiver of differing sets or even differing manufacturers work with each other? If I were to use the Atlona HDBaseT matrix switch could I use a different company's receiver? Not saying there is a benefit to doing this, just curious about the technology.


----------



## Dizzman

that one new 4x4 is. products will continue to be a mix. as they will be with many manufacturers. and as new features are added, there will be compatibility with the elements that are common.


if it is HDBaseT... it is compatible. that is the beauty here.


so yes, you could use a gefen receiver (but why would you want to) with our new matrix. and if you had an intellix matrix that had PoH you could use the newest receiver of ours with it. (that model does not have a power input. it is ONLY PoH)


there will be small caveats. like if i build a 16x16 matrix that is ALL HDBaseT, there is no way i would provide the full 100 watts on all outputs and inputs as that would be an additional 3200 watts the matrix might need. so i might only provide PoH on 5 inputs and 5 outputs, and it might only be... 30 watts. (if that was the amount of power i might need for one of my receivers AND a repeater. FOR THE RECORD... we do not have a repeater yet. this is just a "for instance") So you can see why they would not force somebody to do full power all the time.


SO if you got a tv that COULD be powered off the HDBaseT connection, you would have to confirm that whatever is driving it provided sufficient power.


but other than that, and ensuring the connections/features you want, it is all plug and play.


one other point, make no mistake about the fact that HDBaseT does not replace HDMI. it is just a transport mechanism for HDMI and other signals.


And there are displays on the way that have native HDBaseT connections.


AT ISE for demo purposes they had a flat panel, a projector, a security camera, that all had HDBaseT native on them. these were prototypes they made, but it can give you an idea.


----------



## ktrdsl23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dizzman* /forum/post/21622821
> 
> 
> that one new 4x4 is. products will continue to be a mix. as they will be with many manufacturers. and as new features are added, there will be compatibility with the elements that are common.
> 
> 
> if it is HDBaseT... it is compatible. that is the beauty here.
> 
> 
> so yes, you could use a gefen receiver (but why would you want to) with our new matrix. and if you had an intellix matrix that had PoH you could use the newest receiver of ours with it. (that model does not have a power input. it is ONLY PoH)
> 
> 
> there will be small caveats. like if i build a 16x16 matrix that is ALL HDBaseT, there is no way i would provide the full 100 watts on all outputs and inputs as that would be an additional 3200 watts the matrix might need. so i might only provide PoH on 5 inputs and 5 outputs, and it might only be... 30 watts. (if that was the amount of power i might need for one of my receivers AND a repeater. FOR THE RECORD... we do not have a repeater yet. this is just a "for instance") So you can see why they would not force somebody to do full power all the time.
> 
> 
> SO if you got a tv that COULD be powered off the HDBaseT connection, you would have to confirm that whatever is driving it provided sufficient power.
> 
> 
> but other than that, and ensuring the connections/features you want, it is all plug and play.
> 
> 
> one other point, make no mistake about the fact that HDBaseT does not replace HDMI. it is just a transport mechanism for HDMI and other signals.
> 
> 
> And there are displays on the way that have native HDBaseT connections.
> 
> 
> AT ISE for demo purposes they had a flat panel, a projector, a security camera, that all had HDBaseT native on them. these were prototypes they made, but it can give you an idea.





Very informative, thanks for the honest answer rather than a pure marketing spin.


----------



## Dizzman

As I said, i work at Atlona, so feel free to pepper me with both questions, and product requests.


earlier in the thread there was a comment about repeaters.


these are now available (i think) from crestron. we are working on them (as are others) and i seem to recall that you can do 7 hops (900 metres total) and maintain HDCP. this is a limit of the keys in the chipset. and without HDCP i think it was 11 hops or 1300 metres and still have a working HDMI signal.


to be clear and reiterate what others have said, this is not an HDMI replacement. it is a solution for improved connectivity and distance. it was purposely pushed to the custom installation market first by valens. but there is significant behind the scenes work in the CE world to get adoption happening.


to be honest from my personal viewpoint... CE adoption is irrelevant. it is such a great solution for our market that while CE is important and opens many additional doors, even without them, it makes our lives much easier. even in my humble abode, just the ability to move the disc changer into the garage over a single cat5 cable... it is so huge. once wives find out that the changer can go away... these things will sell even better.


from our perspective as a manufacturer, this was a product that was a much more expensive extender than we had ever previously sold, yet we sell FARRRRRR more than we ever did of the older legacy type products. and everybody will give you that same story.


----------



## cj43

HydraConnect has released an HDBaseT extender with a small footprint, POE at receiver end, bi-directional IR and automatic power down.

HydraConnect HEXT-21 HDBaseT extender


----------



## Dominic Amann

Depending on who you are, there could be several benefits.


For the consumer - it would be possible to have a single PVR with multiple TVs, each one connected via HDBaseT in different rooms. That should lower costs.


New applications such as video intercom can be both cheap and excellent - and use less software and more hardware, so be more reliable and cheaper.


It also makes possible excellent security systems (decent powered cameras transmitting HD).


Distributed TV such as bars, airport lounges.


Distributed music systems.


I am sure all these things are already possible, but having them use the same wire infrastructure, and having power included should be a huge clutter reducer, and cost reducer (over time) - since having one connector must be cheaper than multiple.


----------



## pugenio

I need to feed four TV's with the same HD signal and was thinking about buying the Monoprice 1x4 splitter kit that "supposedly" uses HDBaseT technology. Hard to believe when it costs 161 dls for the splitter and four receivers. Do you guys think I should try it or should I look for another solution elswhere? One of the TV's is close to 50 meters from the source.


This is the Monoproce Splitter I'm talking about: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011307&p_id=8159&seq=1&format=2


----------



## Colm

Not hard to believe. That product uses the lite version of the HDBaseT chipset. If you don't need anything over 1080p60 2D or 1080p24 3D at 24 bits per pixel up to 50m, it should work fine. If you require more bandwidth or a longer run, you will have to go with a product based on the full HDBaseT chipset at higher cost.


----------



## jmalbian

I am quite new to this forrm and tried my best to search for info and/or reviews on this product before asking and can't seem to find anything....so, does anyone have an opinion or experience with a product from Sewell Direct called the "Super HDMI 4x4 Matrix over HDBaseT Single Cat5 with IR and RS232 Control". It seems to have a nice set of specs and in a price range that seems much more reasonable than other products. It lists today for about $1500 including the matrix and 4 receivers. I currently use a set of HDMI extender baluns for one TV, but would like to have a matrix switch like this to share sources among 4 TVs....but have frankly been uninterested up to this point since most of the options have been a multiple of this price when you factor in the base and receiver costs. Here is the link... http://sewelldirect.com/Super-HDMI-4x4-Matrix-over-HDBaseT-Single-cat5-.asp?gclid=CLm1o6iyvbECFYS6KgodGBAAsw 


...by the way there is another non Sewell branded product at hdtvsupply.com that looks identical to this product and is listed at about $2000. Thanks in advance for any thoughts.


----------



## ccotenj

hey guys... i think i've thought this through, but want confirmation from the experts...


i'm planning on ordering the hdmi+ethernet extender from monoprice:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8123&seq=1&format=2 


and using it as follows:


what's in place:


i have a cat6 run from my router (in basement) to my upstairs (2nd floor) main room in place... this is currently connected to a switch in my rack...


i have a mac mini that will be the "sender" on the first floor... i have enough cat6 run to get it to where the mini is...


i currently have a patch cord from the mini to the router...


what i am planning to do...


place extender unit in main room, connect existing cat6 run to it... remove existing switch and connect existing patch cables to extender... connect hdmi cable from input port on avr to extender...


place extender unit next to mini... run hdmi from mini (actually from unit that combines video/audio from the mini into an hdmi stream) to a splitter, then take one of the splitter outs and connect it to the extender... run patch cord from router to extender... connect existing cat6 run to extender...


i "think" this would implement the unit correctly...


thoughts? wish i could use airplay mirroring, but the mini is too old to do that, and this solution is cheaper than replacing it...


tia.


----------



## markrubin

chris


kind of difficult to follow what you want to do but I am using these hdBase T extenders for bedroom HDMI and ethernet, and they work great:


worth a try and easy to return if it does not work for your application


----------



## ccotenj

^^^


thanks mark... yea, good point... easy enough to return if it doesn't fit the bill..


went ahead and ordered one, i'll post back...







with a better description of the application, i promise...


----------



## bytebuster

Folks,

If I were to get one of these extenders, can they be ceiling mounted. I have a cat6 running to my ceiling mounted projector.

Trying to figure out how I can mount this extender right next to the projector mount. One option is to keep this inside the ceiling and let the hdmi cable drop thru an existing recessed plate


Thoughts? Also, is there a way to hide the adapter that connects to the extender? I have an outlet in the ceiling. Would be nice though if I could hide the adapter


----------



## Jeremy A12321

I need a solution for 16 sources and 18 TVs that all need access to all sources...


Been looking at HDBaseT but I'm not sure how these go when you daisy chain them together.


Any suggestions?


----------



## Colm

Well, a 32x32 HDMI matrix and a bunch of HDBaseT extenders would do the job.


----------



## alk3997

...and a spare $12,000 to $25,000 will also help.


----------



## Colm

I think you may be a little low...


----------



## alk3997

I didn't want to scare him away - it's his first post


----------



## bytebuster

An update: I got the Monoprice HDBaseT extender and it worked right out of the box.

Though as another poster pointed out, it does get a tad warm. But it works. Phew!


----------



## Colm

Yep, they usually do.


----------



## bytebuster

The heat or the fact that they work?


Given how warm this gets, is it ok to mount this on the ceiling?


----------



## Colm

Usually with HDBaseT, it is just plug it in and it works. The heat is due to the fact that there is a fairly sophisticated chip inside. Mounting on the ceiling should not be a problem as long as you don't block the vents.


----------



## markrubin

hope you don't mind perhaps a silly question but help me understand:


during install of HDBaseT receiver I notice that if I handle ( pick up or move) the receiver the signal is lost: once I set it back down the video comes back


it is not a cable issue


is this typical of this technology? I tried different devices and same thing


also noticed that you can mix different brands senders/receivers: they appear to all be built to an industry spec: above issue happens with different brands as well


TIA


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markrubin*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/60#post_22292453
> 
> 
> ...they appear to all be built to an industry spec...


They are are based on one of two compatible chipsets from Valens which invented HDBaseT. It is less an industry spec than a chip manufacturer's spec. Valens effectively is HDBaseT.


----------



## innatetech

I've been looking into HDbaseT as a way to have synchronized multiroom viewing extended from the AVR (and so multiple sources) in my study/home theater, since my HTPC driven setup (Myth) doesn't support it through software. Though the situation seems to be improving, I remain somewhat confused about product availability and interoperability. My home isn't laid out well to run direct cabling from each TV to my main viewing room & server closet etc. Currently I use ethernet switches to distribute my data network to my viewing locations and their HTPCs etc. I can fairly easily install another set of cabling parallel to the existing setup. I note that HDbaseT is supposed to support daisy chaining, which would be the solution here, but I don't see any plain and simple extenders/receivers that have a passthrough to attach another extender/receiver in series.


In fact, so far I have found exactly one somewhat scarily generic device, priced at $366 where in stock, being called a 2x2 HDbaseT Repeater. It would seem to offer one set of both both HDMI and HDbaseT inputs and outputs, presumably for attaching a local source as well as the signal delivered over HDbaseT:

http://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/hdmi-daisy-chain/42v3-23200.htm 



Considering that a complete 1-source to 8-station monoprice star topology HDbaseT kit is available for $270:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011308&p_id=8160&seq=1&format=1#largeimage 


this situation seems odd. Are there no inexpensive daisy chainable HDbaseT extenders?


And how compatible are different manufacturer's HDbaseT-labeled kit? If I were to find a daisy-chainable receiver, could I use it with another brand's 1-source to 4-station kit, to daisy chain additional outputs from one leg?


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *innatetech*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/60#post_22294241
> 
> 
> ...this situation seems odd.


Doesn't seem odd to me. Most applications don't require a repeater because HDBaseT will do 100m without one, and most applications call for a matrix approach where any program is available at any display at any time. Just because the technology supports a feature doesn't mean that all manufacturers, or any manufacturers for that matter, will implement that feature. They will implement what they think they can make money on. Apparently most manufacturers feel their resources are better spent elsewhere, for now at least.


As to price, comparing a product intended for the mass market to one intended for a small market is pointless. It costs more, on a per unit basis, to manufacture things in small quantities. And the profit, on a per unit basis, has to be higher to recover development costs and yield a reasonable profit.


All HDBaseT devices are based on one of two compatible chipsets from Valens, so they should be interoperable, and the reports I have read is that they are. If you want to be sure, buy devices that have been certified.


----------



## innatetech

_Most applications don't require a repeater because HDBaseT will do 100m without one, and most applications call for a matrix approach where any program is available at any display at any time._


The problem isn't segment length, it's topology and adaptability to the physical architecture of users homes or offices. This is supposed to be attractive because people already have Ethernet in place. But Ethernet used for IP networking cascades over switches, so you don't have to run a cable from your router directly to every network interface. If the goal is to leverage existing home LANs, then there should be inexpensive devices that accomplish that.


How do people extend their home/SOHO networks to reach inconvenient rooms? Ethernet switches. How would you adapt that cascading bus topology to use HDbaseT (if I understand the feature set properly), so that people can move directly from an existing LAN to HDbaseT? You would use daisy-chainable receivers, maybe with breakout data ports as seen on some of the currently available receivers, such that customers can accomplish the same thing they would with a data switch to reach locations that they can't easily reach via a cable direct run. Except, there aren't any, but for that single overly complex $360 device I found.


As to matrix approaches, that's beside the point here. One of the main, straightforward, and prominently promoted applications of HDbaseT is to support many viewing locations with one source, i.e. a STB, BR player, DVR, or set of sources connected to an AVR, driving the transmitter. That's the whole point of the 1x4 and 1x8 monoprice kits remarked upon upthread, and probably what most home users would want to use HDbaseT for.

_As to price, comparing a product intended for the mass market to one intended for a small market is pointless. It costs more, on a per unit basis, to manufacture things in small quantities. And the profit, on a per unit basis, has to be higher to recover development costs and yield a reasonable profit._


I could see why a receiver/repeater (or whatever the correct terminology is) would be slightly more expensive due to the need to retransmit the signal over the passthrough port (or multiplex it to the output, or whatever) but I don't see how there isn't a sizable latent market for a cascading device like this at a lower price than an 8-station kit, if HDbaseT is meant to be a consumer technology (and directly integrated into displays, etc), and not just something for installers, or commercial applications. Surely I can't be the only one with HDTVs in places ill suited to a direct cable run to where my HDbaseT transmitter would be, but already connected to my network via a switch. This is generally how most users with a STB installed by a cable/satco or a HTPC would be set up.


In other words, calling a device that would allow consumers to more easily "drop in" HDbaseT where there is already a data LAN "pointless" to improving its adoption and profitability is myopic, and will lead to the kind of niche use and slow death such as seen by HPNA (over coax), which should have had the drop on MoCa, but ultimately lost out. I mean, how many simple 5-port ethernet switches are sold by Netgear and Linksys to be cascaded off of people's wireless routers? There's no market? It seems to me that _this_ is the mass market consumer application, and multipoint matrices are the niche market. As a typical consumer, I would be looking to HDbaseT to relieve me of the need to have (and so possibly rent) a source device at every HDTV location by having all of my TVs display the same shared source.

_All HDBaseT devices are based on one of two compatible chipsets from Valens, so they should be interoperable, and the reports I have read is that they are. If you want to be sure, buy devices that have been certified._


Good to know. Thanks for the comments, I appreciate it. I suppose I can always throw a couple of cables over the roof for now, and slap woodblocks in the appropriate windowsills as passthroughs. I used to do that for semi-permanent amateur radio antenna connections. The monoprice kit is pretty hard to resist, but adding a repeater for more than the kit is silly.


Another option might be to connect a 1x2 HDMI splitter to a HDbaseT receiver, and then a display to one port and another 1x4 HDbaseT kit to the other port, replicating what a receiver/repeater would do--but I'd expect there might be handshaking issues, or a few ms of delay between the display devices on the first 1x4 HDbaseT kit vs. the second one hanging off the splitter, annoying in that the audio delay would be perceptible as the viewing zones are within earshot.


----------



## Colm

Well, what you want to do is certainly in Valens' roadmap for HDBaseT. They would like to see their chips in every AV device and PC manufactured in the world. It hasn't happened yet, and may never happen. Valens doesn't build AV gear (heck, they don't even have a fab to manufacture their own chips). And the major CE manufacturers haven't adopted the technology yet. What has happened is that after-market manufacturers have started using it to make reliable extenders. Keep in mind that HDBaseT based products have only started hitting the mass market in any volume in the last year. Manufacturers will enter the market first with products they feel are most likely to make them a profit, and add others, or not, based on their experience.


FWIW there is another technology that will do what you want: Just Add Power's HD over IP 2G. You will like the price even less than that HDBaseT repeater's


----------



## ccotenj

as promised, reporting back...


success!!!










here's the final configuration...


main room:


base station feeding the avr...


secondary room:


mac mini, atv, fios box all into a 4x2 matrix switch... output from switch to base station...


only ran into one small issue, i was getting occasional video drops when i first set it up... removed one of the in-line patch cables from the cat6 run, and that appears to have gone away...


i'm happy... i've been trying for years to think of a good way to get some of the hardware out of the main room...


only thing i didn't try was the ir, as i'm using this "backwards", and the one-way ir is the "wrong way"... don't really care since i use urc rf remotes, but thought i'd mention it just in case someone tries a similar setup to mine...


----------



## markrubin

I did a lot of tests with HDBase T and it is rock solid in almost every case


I did experience loss of signal to a bedroom TV after it it been turned off: it was not recognized after tv is turned off/ back on


a simple fix was to install a Monoprice 1x2 HDMI splitter for that feed: the splitter makes it work: it adds the additional HDMI handshake needed


the other thing to check is that *every* patch/ interconnecting HDMI cable must meet the latest specs: one older cable in the system may cause issues


the latest, best HDMI cables can be had for cheap so it is a good investment. Discard older cables


----------



## Colm

Keep in mind that for anything longer than a few feet, you want to use solid Cat 6 cable, for the same reasons you do with etherenet: the manufacturers are better able to control geometry, hence impedance and performance, with solid core than stranded. Long preterminated stranded patch cables may seem convenient, but they can hurt performance.


----------



## ccotenj

thanks for the tips guys...










re: hdmi cables... yea, every time i re-arrange my equipment (altogether too often), i just order up a bunch of newies from tartan... as you note, they are cheap... as a result, i have about a zillion old ones in a big box in the shed...







i really should get rid of those...


re: solid vs. stranded... ok, good to know when i have to pull another run, since i was just going to use a preterminated patch cable... i hate terminating cat6...


----------



## zigboy

My current ethernet network is wired such that every connection goes through a central switch. Is it true that this configuration won't work with the HDBase-T technology? I'm assuming that there needs to be a direct cat5/cat6 connection between the receiver and transmitter, with no switch in the middle. Am I correct? If not, can someone tell me how I can use HDBase-T with my current network configuration with a central ethernet switch?


----------



## markrubin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zigboy*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/90#post_22335186
> 
> 
> My current ethernet network is wired such that every connection goes through a central switch. Is it true that this configuration won't work with the HDBase-T technology? I'm assuming that there needs to be a direct cat5/cat6 connection between the receiver and transmitter, with no switch in the middle. Am I correct? If not, can someone tell me how I can use HDBase-T with my current network configuration with a central ethernet switch?



you are correct


you might still accomplish the same thing if you can make a direct run from transmitter to receiver (byass the switch and use adapters to couple CAT cable sections) using existing cabling: then add ethernet feed from switch


----------



## N49ATV

Tried to search but I'm getting a tapatalk not installed error,


I'm looking at the HDanywhere multi room +. Is there an equivalent kit at mono price, or this side of the pond? Just 4x4, and receivers bought separately? I just saw great reviews on the hdanywhere multiroom+


----------



## intertan

I currently use the monoprice it works fine but it wont work for my need.

what I need is a self powered (poe) unit with cec

were my tv will located all I want to see is a plug and a hdmi port plus some other ports. Ethernet for internet for smart tv's.

the cec situation is a little bit of an issue.

I use xbmc with the pulse eight cec adapter. I would like to have the adapter at the pc end and not the tv end. this will alow me not to run some sort of usb extender that may be to far for things to work properly.

I also want things rack mounted with the cables if possible on the back of the unit. This will keep things nice and clean for the show off.


any idea what brand i should be looking at? i can also do my own install.


----------



## kertofer

Has anyone tried using this device from Monoprice? http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011310&p_id=8151&seq=1&format=2 It claims to be able to pass 3D as well as all of the digital audio formats, along with IR. My concern is that it uses 2 Cat 5 cables, so I am thinking it is not an HDBaseT chip. If it is, and people have seen good success with it then it would be awesome, I mean a 4X4 matrix over HDMI or ethernet with IR for that price would be cool, but I don't want to mess around with trying to get it to work just to save a few bucks.


----------



## Colm

HDBaseT devices use a single cable. If the description of the device doesn't mention HDBaseT, it probably isn't HDBaseT.


----------



## Den85

Any one tried this one or have any experience with this company? Thanks http://www.hdtvsupply.com/4x4-hdmi-matrix-switch-hdbaset.html#axzz2D6na7tvc


----------



## 1949live

The comment about HDBaseT supporting anything but a point-to-point connection is incorrect. You can only connect one receiver to one transmitter.


----------



## innatetech

Hasn't that changed, practically speaking, with the release of gear like this? I know it's not a true multipoint connection, but daisy chaining these would give you the effective equivalent of a bus topology.

Daisy-Chain-Repeater-HDBaseT 


 


This was discussed a little upthread. Cascading consumer level gear still isn't that common, although this year's CES showed some interest in HDbaseT so maybe that situation will improve.


----------



## Colm

Yes, HDBaseT can handle daisy chain and star topologies as well as point-to-point, although there are few consumer products that exploit this capability.


----------



## laz0rbrain

Hi guys


I have a couple of questions


My goal is to connect my PC to my living room TV to play a couple of games.


Now i looked at several solutions and HDbaseT seemed to be the most promising one


My setup is the following:


I have a gigabit LAN in my flat, running from a central station with a switch to four rooms. In one of them is the router with a DSL modem.

So between my room and the TV are at least 3 switches probably 4 when I would connect a HDMI extender in my room, since I still need ethernet and there is only one ehternet connection per room


So from what I understand, that will in no case work with HDbaseT? Is that also true for other hdmi extenders without the HDbaseT standard?

I also looked at whid solutions. But my TV and my PC are I guess 15 Meters apart with two walls between them. So I'm not sure if that will work.

Last solution would be to just run a 25m HDMI cable between the two and just unplug it when I don't need it.


Am I correct with my assumptions? Do you guys know of any other solution for me that doesn't involve running new cables through my walls?


Thanks for any suggestions


----------



## Colm

HDBaseT is not ethernet. You cannot connect HDBaseT devices to an ethernet network even though they use the same kind of cable. They require their own cabling.


There are devices that will take a HDMI signal, compress it, send it over ethernet, and uncompress it. Do a search on "HD over IP". They usually seem to run on dedicated networks with managed switches. I am not sure whether they would work in your environment.


----------



## jmsc

Hi all,


I am new to the forum. I am in the process of building a new house. I have all cables( cat 5e for ethernet, cat 5e for video and speaker wire for distributed audio) home run to the basement.


My question is : Will the Atlona AT-PRO3HD44M with 4 AT-HDRX-IR receivers allow me to control and switch 4 devices located in the basement( 2 sat receivers.1 media player and 1 bluray player) at 4 different TV locations.


I will be using a logitech touch remote in each of the rooms.


Thank you


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmsc*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/90#post_23003270
> 
> 
> Will the Atlona AT-PRO3HD44M with 4 AT-HDRX-IR receivers allow me to control and switch 4 devices located in the basement( 2 sat receivers.1 media player and 1 bluray player) at 4 different TV locations.


Depends entirely on your IR gear. Think of the Atlona gear as a wire between the IR receiver in each room and your IR gear in the basement.


----------



## jmsc

Thanks Colm,


Just so I am clear


The Atlona Matrix switch comes with 5 IR emitters. These should control the components connected to the switch in the basement.


The HT-HDRX-IR receiver- located behind each TV has an IR receiver that will transmit IR signal to switch from remote


So If I have an IR remote(logitech) at each location programmed to control the switch and the 4 connected components I should be able to control the switch and any of the connected components in any room?


----------



## Joe Fernand

If you happen to have two of any one Source (your Sat Receiver for example) and they are both the same box with the same IR codes the trick is to ensure the Matrix you go with allows for 'Routed' control so that you dont end up controlling two 'same box' Sources from one Zone.


Joe


----------



## jmsc

great point, Thanks Joe!


----------



## RickStrobel

Don't know if we'll ever see it, but wouldn't it be cool if most of the TVs for sale simply had an HDBaseT connector and that's it? Stick it on the wall and run a CAT6 cable to the box and you're done! No worrying about properly wiring AC power to a recessed box behind the TV and a myriad of other wires and related issues.


How would this affect a structured wiring system one might build? If you were certain this was the future you could just build a solid CAT6 structured wiring system and be ready.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/60#post_22300956
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that for anything longer than a few feet, you want to use solid Cat 6 cable, for the same reasons you do with etherenet: the manufacturers are better able to control geometry, hence impedance and performance, with solid core than stranded. Long preterminated stranded patch cables may seem convenient, but they can hurt performance.


You don't like pre-terminated patch cables because they're stranded, not solid?


I've always been of the mind that cable should be done properly - runs tied down to patch panels and wall plates, patch cords for the final moveable connections. I cringe when I see a network cable run from one end of the house to the other with a couple of RJ45s crimped on each end. Always thought you should leave the crimping of ends to the machines in the factory.


----------



## crbaldwin

Has anyone tried the infrared extender feature of one of the Monoprice HDBaseT units with a standard Windows Media Center remote control? I tried an inexpensive Byttec HDBaseT extender and it seemed to mangle the infrared signal such that my PC did not respond to the remote commands (the LED light on the PC remote receiver was flashing so I know that commands were getting there). I'm wondering if this is just a compatibility problem of the HDBaseT technology and would be the same for all brands. Thanks.


----------



## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RickStrobel*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/90#post_23029628
> 
> 
> I've always been of the mind that cable should be done properly - runs tied down to patch panels and wall plates, patch cords for the final moveable connections. I cringe when I see a network cable run from one end of the house to the other with a couple of RJ45s crimped on each end. Always thought you should leave the crimping of ends to the machines in the factory.


Per the guys that write the specifications, cat cabling should always be brought to a punch down type connection and then the last leg should be done with a patch cord. The stranded patch cords are using stranded conductors to allow greater flexibility and reliability. So, you are correct in your mindset - and in line with what the professional requirements for cat-x cabling call for. I'm NOT an expert, but we covered this in class for Extron's HD-Base-T solutions training class.


Solid core for the long haul, punch it down (never terminate to RJ45), then patch cable.


Why no hand terminated RJ45 connections? Well, the RJ45 is a limited lifetime product. It is actually only rated to some ridiculously low number (I was thinking 50 insertions/deinsertions, but maybe it was 200) before replacement of patch cables is recommended. RJ45 jacks are rated for longer life.


From this website, they claim a guarantee of 1,000 insertions/desinsertions...

http://rj45s.com/Plug_Jack_Contact_Mating.html 


Interesting bit of reading.


Oh, and tomorrow I am playing with the Panasonic projector with the native HD-Base-T connection built right into it. Using RS-232 and switch PC/HD video w/audio right into the projector... Really cool.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV_Integrated*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/90#post_23417919
> 
> 
> Why no hand terminated RJ45 connections? Well, the RJ45 is a limited lifetime product. It is actually only rated to some ridiculously low number (I was thinking 50 insertions/deinsertions, but maybe it was 200) before replacement of patch cables is recommended. RJ45 jacks are rated for longer life.


No, plugs and jacks typically have similar life expectancies, for many manufacturers around 500 mate cycles, some manufacturers more. The usual reason for eschewing hand termination is the assumption that you have a better chance of achieving a gas tight connection. In my experience, a competent technician with good hand tools and parts is more likely to turn out a good connection than a plant churning out thousands and thousands of cables a day for a number of reasons.


> Quote:
> Oh, and tomorrow I am playing with the Panasonic projector with the native HD-Base-T connection built right into it.


Cool, you'll have to tell us all about it.


----------



## Joe Fernand

Hello all


RickStrobel – with HDMI over Twisted Pair you really don’t want any unnecessary breaks in the cable runs between your Tx and Rx.


Crbaldwin – I wouldn’t assume all HDBaseT and HDBaseT-lite implementations are the same.


AV_Integrated – our Tech guys say it is still best practice to avoid any unnecessary breaks in your cables with HDBaseT and HDBaseT-lite.


AV_Integrated – ‘Really Cool’, I hear different! With heat being an issue with some of the first gen Display devices with integrated HDBaseT Rx.


Colm – I’m with you, good and bad for both Factory and Installer built cables.


Joe


----------



## randyth

Very interesting HDBaseT news via Engadget...

Pioneer's SC-79 uses HDBaseT to feed HDMI video throughout the home (hands-on video)


----------



## ktrdsl23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *randyth*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/90#post_23470662
> 
> 
> Very interesting HDBaseT news via Engadget...
> 
> Pioneer's SC-79 uses HDBaseT to feed HDMI video throughout the home (hands-on video)



I'd prefer to see it as an input rather than an output. All my receivers are local as I don't have speaker wire run from my rack to each room. However if it had an HDBaseT input you could then with one cable route all your sources to the receiver from a rack with an HDBaseT matrix switch.


----------



## randyth

An AV receiver with HDBaseT inputs would be a big plus for flexibility in equipment placement. That's a brilliant idea. Personally, I want an AV receiver with a built in 4x4 Matrix and HDBaseT output support for zones 2 through 4 at least.


----------



## mlrtime3

Just thought I'd add some information. I have a house wired with 4xCAT6 to each room of our house. They all terminate to a patch panel in a closet (No 8P8C connectors).


I just purchased the monoprice 4x2 HDBASET matrix ( http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10914&cs_id=1091403&p_id=10226&seq=1&format=2 ). All cables are monoprice CAT6 patch cables going in the patch panel and out to a keystone jack and then another cat6 patch cable.


For source 1 I'm using a Window 7 WMC PC with a Nvidia 430GT with a generic IR remote.

For source 2 i'm using a Apple TV.


Both remotes and switching work on the display end.


So far everything works perfect. I have only tested it for a day so far but I have not had any problems. I'm trying to test 3D and bitstreaming truehd to make sure they work next.


Also this matrix is a 4x2 but the second output is hdmi, not hdbaset. I'm going to try and buy another extender to essentially make it a true 4x2.


----------



## turls

Is HDBaseT 2.0 as big of a game changer as it sounds like? Addresses all levels of the OSI model? I think this would replace what I was looking at from JustAddPower.

http://www.cepro.com/images/pdfs/hdbaset_20_spec.pdf


----------



## JustMike

Hmmmmm. So, are they saying that you would not need a matrix switch as we now know it, because you could route the data almost like IP? I'm not sure how that can work when you still potentially have EDID issues, HDCP handshaking and so forth.


I notice that there's no mention in the slide deck of cost. As far as I can tell, that has been a big barrier to adoption so far, and part of why HDBaseT has been largely limited to CEDIA-type products rather than mainstream CE products. I believe that the chipset from Valens was quite costly. I don't know the current state of things, and whether this new standard attempts to lower costs.


----------



## turls




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JustMike*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/90#post_23629976
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm. So, are they saying that you would not need a matrix switch as we now know it, because you could route the data almost like IP? I'm not sure how that can work when you still potentially have EDID issues, HDCP handshaking and so forth.
> 
> 
> I notice that there's no mention in the slide deck of cost. As far as I can tell, that has been a big barrier to adoption so far, and part of why HDBaseT has been largely limited to CEDIA-type products rather than mainstream CE products. I believe that the chipset from Valens was quite costly. I don't know the current state of things, and whether this new standard attempts to lower costs.



Yes, I would think a full HomePlay setup would replace a matrix switch at lower cost with more features. It seems like it would also mostly replace the HD over IP product from JustAddPower that is both proprietary and expensive, and give the same type of switching options. This includes the important ability to use local devices as possible inputs for whole house use.


On the same note, JAP doesn't typically have issues with EDID, HDCP, etc, and they have been out a few years. I don't think they would come out with a standard that would ignore those possible issues.


Of course there is no cost mentioned because there are no products. However, if Monoprice can do HDBaseT at the price point that they do, I would hope they would come out with a HomePlay switching solution and blow up the market.


----------



## JustMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *turls*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/90#post_23631021
> 
> 
> On the same note, JAP doesn't typically have issues with EDID, HDCP, etc, and they have been out a few years. I don't think they would come out with a standard that would ignore those possible issues.



Just Add Power isn't quite a fair comparison for EDID issues because they're re-encoding the video signal and then scaling it on the receiver (or they were last time I looked at them). So, it was a very nice and flexible system, but not lossless. I don't know how they deal with HDCP, though.


----------



## turls

 http://www.electronichouse.com/article/new_hdbaset_2.0_could_simplify_home_theater_hookup


----------



## Budwyzer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JustMike*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/90#post_23629976
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm. So, are they saying that you would not need a matrix switch as we now know it, because you could route the data almost like IP? I'm not sure how that can work when you still potentially have EDID issues, HDCP handshaking and so forth.
> 
> 
> I notice that there's no mention in the slide deck of cost. As far as I can tell, that has been a big barrier to adoption so far, and part of why HDBaseT has been largely limited to CEDIA-type products rather than mainstream CE products. I believe that the chipset from Valens was quite costly. I don't know the current state of things, and whether this new standard attempts to lower costs.


 http://www.semiconductorstore.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=48368&cm_mmc=promo_lp-_-valens-_-page_link-_-valens_vs100 


Link to purchase the Valens VS100 TX chip. $40 a pop. Same for the RX chip. A price difference that will go unnoticed to the consumer, especially when the chips are purchased in bulk for a big discount I'm sure.




This is incredibly exciting. I started a thread on the Sony forums to get a version of the PS4 that runs entirely off of HDBaseT, though the switches do show support for HDMI devices it would be nice to have the Bluetooth from the controller being sent over the network as well as the device being powered all from a single cable.
http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-General/HDBaseT-Support-Please/m-p/41326523 Though no one looks at it I guess.


My hope is that we can even drop the need for ethernet cable to be run to everything and put in support for PowerLine equipment. Then you could have your option of A) Put a PowerLine adapter on the wall that has a built-in HDBaseT switch, which runs off multiple objects and brings them into the fold, or B) Just plug things in and they're online because they have built-in powerline adapters. Option B sounds better to me because my TV in the living room actually draws 102watts of power.


Of course then my UPS would need to support passing these signals through.


----------



## malakudi

Powerline does not have (and I doubt it will ever have) the 5G/10G bandwidth needed for HDBaseT 1080p60.


----------



## Budwyzer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *malakudi*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23668714
> 
> 
> Powerline does not have (and I doubt it will ever have) the 5G/10G bandwidth needed for HDBaseT 1080p60.



And HDBaseT doesn't support 1000M ethernet yet either. Along with the fact that Valens only just released their chipset for this tech, so there is time for PowerLine to evolve before this technology is adopted by consumer electronics.


----------



## chadcj7

Looking for dome help here. I just recently put in some monopribe hdbaset baluns and have a tv running off my multi-zone receiver and thins are working well. My tv has internet connectivity and I wanted to run a cat5e cable to it for internet connectivity. The problem is I only have one cat5e cable ran to my bedroom. This cable is using the hdbaset. I have searched here and the internet for a solution.


Can I put a switch on each end to split the signal and still get video network connectivity from one cat5e cable. If this does not work is there other options? Thanks


----------



## JustMike

HDBaseT is able to carry both video and Ethernet, but you need to use appropriate sender/receiver devices to do so. You can NOT just use a simple switch.


For example (and I'm just picking one at random -- I have no experience with it), the Atlona AT-HDRX-RSNET and AT-HDTX-RSNET extenders support Ethernet (and IR and serial) over the HDBaseT connection, in addition to the video/audio signals.


Not all of the HDBaseT sender/receivers implement the Ethernet functionality, because it adds cost.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chadcj7*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23820130
> 
> 
> Can I put a switch on each end to split the signal and still get video network connectivity from one cat5e cable.


No. Even though it uses the same kind of cable, the HDBaseT signal does not follow Ethernet protocols.


> Quote:
> If this does not work is there other options?


Use a HDBaseT receiver and transmitter with Ethernet capability. Use your existing cable like you do now for HDBaseT, connect the TV's Ethernet port to the HDBaseT receiver's Ethernet port, connect the HDBaseT transmitter's Ethernet port to you Ethernet switch.


----------



## chadcj7

that is what I thought you all were going to tell me. It appears that I ordered the wrong device but it is to late to return. I may be able to use it some where else and then buy a new one. I appreciate everyones help. Thanks


----------



## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chadcj7*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23821774
> 
> 
> that is what I thought you all were going to tell me. It appears that I ordered the wrong device but it is to late to return. I may be able to use it some where else and then buy a new one. I appreciate everyones help. Thanks


This is what you want: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8123&seq=1&format=2 


There are a number of others out there as well. Sucks that you need that functionality now. Good luck!


----------



## cdika17

So did i miss something or did it go from having to have 2 cat cables to 1?


----------



## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cdika17*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23842954
> 
> 
> So did i miss something or did it go from having to have 2 cat cables to 1?


HDBaseT has always been a single wire solution.


HDMI extenders used to come in a variety of flavors and continue to exist. They were never HDBaseT, and they all worked somewhat sketchy for what I ever saw, which was quite a few. Typically decent to 1080i, often non-functional at 1080p. Always a question mark.


HDBaseT has been adopted by some very heavy hitters in A/V and are one of the base technologies for HDMI distribution by all of them.


Extron, Crestron, AMX, Panasonic, NEC, etc. and a long list of others use HDBaseT.


But, no you never missed anything, you just may have thought that HDBaseT was the only one-wire solution, or that previous HDMI extenders used HDBaseT technology, which is not the case.


----------



## 10-SE

I'm considering HDBaseT matrix combined with a distributed audio system for a bowling center. Worried about lip sync problems as a result of audio going through the audio system and the latency of video signal due to HDMI and HDBasT signal processing. Will it solve it by using de-embedded audio from the HDMI input card instead of analog audio directly from the source. Or either way am I obligated to using an outboard audio delay processor?


Thanks


----------



## AV_Integrated

There is no video processing that occurs with this. That is, the latency on HDBaseT is basically non-existent. Once a pathway has been established, the point-to-point video is nearly instantaneous.


Any delays I've seen between analog audio and HDMI audio/video have always originated in the source itself and not all sources have the same delay. Some have more delays than others do, but it has always been variances in sources, not in the display which has caused me headaches with audio.


Oh, and lip sync has typically been very good. I usually hear it more when I'm using a digitally generated audio source vs. an analog audio source. Just a very slight difference of a few milliseconds which is very noticeable when I hear the two sources, but isn't visible as a lip-sync issue when I have either audio source on by itself.


----------



## Joe Fernand

As AV_I says no real time delay using HDMI over dual CAT or HDMI over HDBaseT - where you will potentially run into a delay within a Distributed system is the Display device and how long it takes to process a video signal.


It would be best to have the ability to delay your audio signals to keep them in sync with the Distributed video signals.


If you are working with multiple Sources going to multiple Zones and different Display types in one Zone you want more than just a 'global' audio delay.


Look at Zektor for an HDBaseT Matrix with audio delay built in - http://www.zektor.com/products.html 


Joe


----------



## sner

I am lucky enough to be getting the new Sony VPL-VW-1100ES next month to replace my old Runco CRT unit. The only concern I have is that the HDMI cable run will be about 50 feet. I did a google search on 4k HDBaseT products and found a few like Creston http://www.crestron.com/resources/product_and_programming_resources/catalogs_and_brochures/online_catalog/default.asp?cat=1048&subcat=1480&id=2442 and am wondering about two things:


1. It is advertised as 4K, but will it pass a full bandwidth signal from a 4K source like the Sony 4K media server?

2. Is this just a "point to point" solution or will I need a router or some form of network control device in addition to the transmitter and receiver?


Thanks for any feedback.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sner*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23966199
> 
> 
> 1. It is advertised as 4K, but will it pass a full bandwidth signal from a 4K source like the Sony 4K media server?


Define "full bandwidth". The product you linked to will handle any signal with up to a 300 Mhz clock rate (about 7% under the maxium rate for HDMI 1.4). That is enough for 4K Ultra HD (3840 x 2160) 24p a 8 bits. It won't handle 60p if and when Sony makes it available. You will need something compatible with HDMI 2.0 for that.


> Quote:
> 2. Is this just a "point to point" solution or will I need a router or some form of network control device in addition to the transmitter and receiver?


It is not a network device. Almost all, if not all, current HDBaseT products are point-to-point. Future devices may support other topologies as well.


----------



## Sno Crash

Ok, so I read through all of this, researched a ton of products from Atlona to Zektor, and it's all "rainbows and lollipops" for how easy and amazing it is to send full hdmi signals over long distances to your TV. We've got rack mountable transmitters, wall plate receivers, bidirectional IR, even Ethernet built in. HDAnywhere matrix is just brilliant.


Except...what about my speakers? Everyone dances around it. HDBaseT 2.0 is this amazing whole home multimedia revolution. But the revolution is in stereo? My TV is shown as being the only component in my room.


If I am the type of person to need HDBaseT, then I'm the type of person who is going to centralize my gear (cable box, HTPC, receiver, amp) and make a long cable run from my gear to my TV, which gives me that coveted "TV hanging on the wall" clean look.


But wait, I have 6 speakers that need audio too. Bare minimum, in my bedroom I want 3.1 audio. Crappy stereo down mix coming out of my TV? No, no, no.


So I have to set up this crazy HDBaseT run for video, then run enough speaker wire to power 4, 5, maybe even up to 11 speakers depending on surround setup. Or, I have to break the centralization model and put a big ugly receiver in the room. And if the speakers are nice, I have to put the amp there too. At that point, why bother with centralizing? I can't. And then why bother with hdbaset?


Or are my expectations too high? Is HDBaseT just a "correction" for the fact that HDMI won't go longer than 40-50 feet? Are all of you using hdbaset also running separate speaker wire runs?


And then on top of this, let's say you centralize all your gear in a rack and run HDBaseT, with tons of speaker wire to your TV room, what do you do with your game console? Set it next to your TV? Run a HDBaseT sender unit back to your receiver over another cat6?


So for a 5.1 surround setup in a living room with a PS4 and centralized gear, you'd have to spend $500 in TX / RX units (2 kits) and run 3 speaker wires, a sub cable, and 2 CAT6. Right?


I mean, it's cool, but damn. It's not like this is really changing much. Please tell me I missed something.


----------



## alk3997




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sno Crash*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23967303
> 
> 
> Ok, so I read through all of this, researched a ton of products from Atlona to Zektor, and it's all "rainbows and lollipops" for how easy and amazing it is to send full hdmi signals over long distances to your TV. We've got rack mountable transmitters, wall plate receivers, bidirectional IR, even Ethernet built in. HDAnywhere matrix is just brilliant.
> 
> 
> Except...what about my speakers? Everyone dances around it. HDBaseT 2.0 is this amazing whole home multimedia revolution. But the revolution is in stereo? My TV is shown as being the only component in my room.
> 
> 
> ....



The reason you never see it listed is that "your speakers" are irrelevent to the discussion. In other words, the use of HDBaseT does not change the type of audio format that is used or selected. That is controlled by the sources and the sinks. The channel used between the sources and sinks, assuming it is sufficient to send all audio formats, doesn't change the audio. HDBaseT is sufficient to send all audio formats currently implemented.


The audio stream is embedded in the same data stream as the video information. The HDBaseT does some conversion but for the audio and video streams it sends the same bits as it receives.


So, how is the audio selected? Let's use Blu-Ray as an example. You can only send audio that the Blu-Ray is capable of sending. So, if you purchase a Blu-Ray disc that has DTS-HD MA and the player is capable of sending a DTS-HD MA stream (early players could not do this), then the player receives a data packet called the EDID. The EDID contains a list of the capabilities of the sinks. So, the source then checks to see if the sinks can handle DTS-HD MA. If it can, it sends DTS-HD MA. If not it sends an audio signal that the sinks can handle.


So, blame your sinks if you are getting 2.0 audio, not HDBaseT. HDBaseT is only the channel.


BTW, 3.1 or 3.0 would also be a downmix from 5.1. I know of no disc that is encoded in 3.0 or 3.1, so those signals would have to be derrived from something such as 5.0 or 5.1.


Also, any time you discuss speakers, you'll need an amplifier per channel. That is usually done close to the speakers to reduce noise. So, even if HDBaseT sent out individual analog speaker channels (which it does not), you would still have to amplify that output.


----------



## sner




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23966366
> 
> 
> Define "full bandwidth". The product you linked to will handle any signal with up to a 300 Mhz clock rate (about 7% under the maxium rate for HDMI 1.4). That is enough for 4K Ultra HD (3840 x 2160) 24p a 8 bits. It won't handle 60p if and when Sony makes it available. You will need something compatible with HDMI 2.0 for that.
> 
> It is not a network device. Almost all, if not all, current HDBaseT products are point-to-point. Future devices may support other topologies as well.



Thanks, Colm. I could not find any HDBaseT prducts that support HDMI 2.0 yet so I guess in the short term my best bet is to use an existing product like the one I linked to in op; and then when/if 60p Ultra HD becomes available, replace it with newer product. Other concern (which hopefully Sony can answer ) is whether their 4K media player can run through my preamp/processor (Classe CT-SSP) which has HDMI 1.4 outputs or whether I need to connect it directly to the projector -- in which case I may need *two* HDBaseT extenders


----------



## JustMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sno Crash*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23967303
> 
> 
> I mean, it's cool, but damn. It's not like this is really changing much. Please tell me I missed something.



I think you are missing a very common setup, which is that you have a "main" room where you would go to enjoy a movie, and then rooms where you want casual TV viewing. You still want centralized gear so that you can access all of your main sources in each room. "Specialty" sources (e.g. the game console) can be direct connected in the zone in which they're used.


Example: I have a theater room. My gear is located near the theater, and I have direct HDMI connection to the projector, plus of course speaker wire for all of those speakers and subwoofers etc. (plus balanced cables for the powered subs). That goes to the rack.


But then I have a TV in the living room. And one in the bedroom. And the kitchen. And the office. I don't need surround sound to watch The Daily Show or the food network! So, an HDBaseT connection to each of those TVs would be adequate to give me video and audio in each room for casual viewing. As it happens, I also wanted multi-room music, so I did put in ceiling speakers and a multi-room amp, and in rooms where it makes sense, I use those for the TV audio instead of the TV speakers.


HDBaseT is perfect for a setup like this, but I'm not using it because it's still too damned expensive in a matrix application. So I'm using an Extron HD component video/audio switch and running it all analog. Believe me, it would have been more pleasant to run a single Cat-6 to each of those TVs... And, in fact, I did run a Cat-6 (two, actually) to each of those TVs so that I can do HDBaseT when the prices make sense.


----------



## Sno Crash




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alk3997*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23968457
> 
> 
> The reason you never see it listed is that "your speakers" are irrelevent to the discussion. In other words, the use of HDBaseT does not change the type of audio format that is used or selected. That is controlled by the sources and the sinks. The channel used between the sources and sinks, assuming it is sufficient to send all audio formats, doesn't change the audio. HDBaseT is sufficient to send all audio formats currently implemented.
> 
> 
> The audio stream is embedded in the same data stream as the video information. The HDBaseT does some conversion but for the audio and video streams it sends the same bits as it receives.
> 
> 
> So, how is the audio selected? Let's use Blu-Ray as an example. You can only send audio that the Blu-Ray is capable of sending. So, if you purchase a Blu-Ray disc that has DTS-HD MA and the player is capable of sending a DTS-HD MA stream (early players could not do this), then the player receives a data packet called the EDID. The EDID contains a list of the capabilities of the sinks. So, the source then checks to see if the sinks can handle DTS-HD MA. If it can, it sends DTS-HD MA. If not it sends an audio signal that the sinks can handle.
> 
> 
> So, blame your sinks if you are getting 2.0 audio, not HDBaseT. HDBaseT is only the channel.
> 
> 
> BTW, 3.1 or 3.0 would also be a downmix from 5.1. I know of no disc that is encoded in 3.0 or 3.1, so those signals would have to be derrived from something such as 5.0 or 5.1.
> 
> 
> Also, any time you discuss speakers, you'll need an amplifier per channel. That is usually done close to the speakers to reduce noise. So, even if HDBaseT sent out individual analog speaker channels (which it does not), you would still have to amplify that output.



Sorry, I didn't phrase that quite right. What I meant is that if you want to send audio and video over HDBaseT, HDMI, or any other "single cable" solution directly to your TV, you make a compromise. You either get to have stereo sound coming out of your TV (so your TV is down mixing the sound to 2-channel audio), or you need to put a receiver in the room to drive the speakers. My frustration is in this compromise. When I say 3.1, I mean sending the full audio signal and just connecting front, center and sub. Not down mixing it specifically.


----------



## alk3997




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sno Crash*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23968974
> 
> 
> Sorry, I didn't phrase that quite right. What I meant is that if you want to send audio and video over HDBaseT, HDMI, or any other "single cable" solution directly to your TV, you make a compromise. You either get to have stereo sound coming out of your TV (so your TV is down mixing the sound to 2-channel audio), or you need to put a receiver in the room to drive the speakers. My frustration is in this compromise.



Again, that is part of the EDID and that HDMI can only have one audio stream and one video stream at any time. Given that you can only have one audio stream coming out of a source, how else would you handle it? (I'd be interested to hear any ideas)


Either way, it isn't a limitation of HDBaseT but a limitation of HDMI and has been discussed in this forum many many times. It isn't a compromise but instead a result of the specification which was put in place so that all sinks get a compatible audio and video signal. A compromise would be if the audio was down-rezzed because of insufficient bandwidth, but that isn't the case.


Let me correct you with one thing - in most cases your TV is *not* down mixing the sound to 2-channel audio. Your source is being told to only send 2-channel audio to the TV by the EDID. Big difference since the 5.1-channel audio never leaves the player.


----------



## JustMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sno Crash*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23968974
> 
> 
> Sorry, I didn't phrase that quite right. What I meant is that if you want to send audio and video over HDBaseT, HDMI, or any other "single cable" solution directly to your TV, you make a compromise. You either get to have stereo sound coming out of your TV (so your TV is down mixing the sound to 2-channel audio), or you need to put a receiver in the room to drive the speakers. My frustration is in this compromise. When I say 3.1, I mean sending the full audio signal and just connecting front, center and sub. Not down mixing it specifically.



If you really care that much, buy a Sonos sound bar and hook it to the TV's optical output. Multichannel audio via HDBaseT to the TV, optical to the sound bar. Wireless from the sound bar to a subwoofer and/or surround speakers if you want to add those.


The big win with HDBaseT is that HDMI cable is expensive, hard to pull, bulky, and over longer distances, increasingly unreliable. HDBaseT gives you the ability to run a thin, easily pulled commodity cable over long distances, and use it for HDMI. As I did in my house, you can inexpensively pre-wire all your TV locations for HDBaseT even if you don't plan to use it right away.


To me, the benefit of having all of my sources centralized and distributed to all my zones is huge -- well worth any extra effort that it took to pull the necessary wires. All of the living spaces in my house are quiet, free from the sound of fans, hard drives and so forth. All of that stuff is confined to an equipment room. Now, if I could just remote-locate the compressor for the fridge... ;-)


----------



## Sno Crash




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alk3997*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23969001
> 
> 
> Again, that is part of the EDID and that HDMI can only have one audio stream and one video stream at any time. Given that you can only have one audio stream coming out of a source, how else would you handle it?
> 
> 
> Either way, it isn't a limitation of HDBaseT but a limitation of HDMI and has been discussed in this forum many many times. It isn't a compromise but instead a result of the specification which was put in place so that all sinks get a compatible audio and video signal. A compromise would be if the audio was down-rezzed because of insufficient bandwidth, but that isn't the case.



Right, right. I agree. It really has little to do with HDBaseT. I'm not blaming HDBaseT for some kind of failure, but rather wondering why it couldn't have been done differently. Maybe you are right and its just a duplicative general complaint against HDMI.


What I mean is this: I have a receiver sitting in a rack in the basement. In my living room, I have a TV and 6 speakers. The miracle solution is to run one cable from my receiver to a wall plate in the living room that I plug my TV and speakers in to. It would have to be a combination of digital video and amplified, separate analog audio channels, right? Is this something that isn't possible over a single cable? Could HDBaseT of the future do something like this?


----------



## Sno Crash




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JustMike*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23969066
> 
> 
> If you really care that much, buy a Sonos sound bar and hook it to the TV's optical output. Multichannel audio via HDBaseT to the TV, optical to the sound bar. Wireless from the sound bar to a subwoofer and/or surround speakers if you want to add those.
> 
> 
> The big win with HDBaseT is that HDMI cable is expensive, hard to pull, bulky, and over longer distances, increasingly unreliable. HDBaseT gives you the ability to run a thin, easily pulled commodity cable over long distances, and use it for HDMI. As I did in my house, you can inexpensively pre-wire all your TV locations for HDBaseT even if you don't plan to use it right away.
> 
> 
> To me, the benefit of having all of my sources centralized and distributed to all my zones is huge -- well worth any extra effort that it took to pull the necessary wires. All of the living spaces in my house are quiet, free from the sound of fans, hard drives and so forth. All of that stuff is confined to an equipment room. Now, if I could just remote-locate the compressor for the fridge... ;-)



True, good call. The Sonos thing is pretty clean and smart. You'd have to check if the optical out is a true pass-through, right? I remember reading that sometimes they aren't.


----------



## alk3997

Well, anything is possible. Here are the reasons I wouldn't do that:


1) Mixing a high speed digital signal with a high-level analog signal. This would be an excellent way to introduce noise into the audio signal and noise into the digital video signal. Now VGA coexisted on the DVI lines with the digital signal but VGA wasn't a high level (amplified) signal.

2) You would probably also want a way to control and "tune" the audio signal, including balancing, EQ (with something like Audyssey) and delay responses. So, you would have to control whatever is producing the audio signal. So, you'll also need a way to access the AVR's functions (or whatever is producing the amplified signal).

3) The gauge of cable will be very different for a long-range amplified signal than for the video signal.

4) Not sure a combined cable is going to save you that much room in-wall since you would have to insulate the speaker lines and then wrap a bigger insulator around the whole assembly. May actually be bigger than the combined separate wires.


You can do this by having your AVR in a separate equipment closet (control room). From the AVR run cat 6/HDMI for the video and speaker cable for the 5.1-channel or 7.1-channel audio. For a wall plate, try one of these:

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042503&p_id=6907&seq=1&format=2 


It looks like one set of connections unless you know what is in the wall. The TV will get video from HDMI and the 5.1-channel/7.1-channel speakers will get a full multichannel mix.


What you mentioned starts making more sense if you can feed the digital audio signal directly to the speakers. But then each speaker requires its own D/A converter, control logic (for tuning) and amplifier.


----------



## JustMike

Building on what Andy said, the wire types necessary for speakers are very different from Cat-5 or Cat-6 cable. You would be creating a new type of cable that would be much bigger and much more expensive, just for the few situations where you might want speaker level signals at the same place as your HDMI connection. And is that really where you want them? Wouldn't you want (maybe) one connection next to the TV for a center, two placed for a good stereo pair, and then a couple in back for the surrounds? What about the sub(s)? Every situation is different, so a one-size-fits-all cable is unlikely to work.


Also, part of the genius of HDBaseT is that many, many homes are already wired with Cat-5 or Cat-6, so it takes advantage of this existing infrastructure to enable sending an HDMI signal without having to somehow run a new cable. Plus it's cheap and easy to pull, so specifying it in new/remodel construction is a no brainer.


If you're pulling cable in construction/remodel anyway, pulling speaker wires to where they actually need to go is really easy. Having just completed a remodel, I can say this from firsthand experience. Pulling it for a retrofit is harder, but doable especially if there's a crawl space or an attic. I can also say this from firsthand experience. ;-)


----------



## Joe Fernand

Sno Crash


What you describe is a ‘limitation’ of any AV system you happen to choose – there is no system (past or present) which would cover what you require, HDMI 2.0 ‘may’ simplify things but then again HEC was meant to be a game changer too.


What you want can be achieved in various ways – as others have said simply install AVR’s, TV Speaker System’s or Soundbar's in each Zone which handle Audio via HDMI, set your Sources (connected to the HDMI over HDBaseT Matrix) to HD Video + multi-channel Audio via HDMI and you are good to go.


The Sonos PLAYBAR may/may not be the ideal Soundbar in this case as it lacks DTS and HD Audio support so would ‘limit’ you to 2.0 + 5.1 DD but does not cover you for DTS or the newer lossless HD audio codecs.


The Sonos PLAYBAR has an Optical Input (no Passthru) so relies on you first off handing your HDMI Source to your TV and in turn your TV having a DD compatible HDMI Input and Optical Output – there are better ‘Soundbar’ options that the PLAYBAR.


Joe


----------



## Sno Crash




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joe Fernand*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23970340
> 
> 
> Sno Crash
> 
> 
> What you describe is a ‘limitation’ of any AV system you happen to choose – there is no system (past or present) which would cover what you require, HDMI 2.0 ‘may’ simplify things but then again HEC was meant to be a game changer too.
> 
> 
> What you want can be achieved in various ways – as others have said simply install AVR’s, TV Speaker System’s or Soundbar's in each Zone which handle Audio via HDMI, set your Sources (connected to the HDMI over HDBaseT Matrix) to HD Video + multi-channel Audio via HDMI and you are good to go.
> 
> 
> The Sonos PLAYBAR may/may not be the ideal Soundbar in this case as it lacks DTS and HD Audio support so would ‘limit’ you to 2.0 + 5.1 DD but does not cover you for DTS or the newer lossless HD audio codecs.
> 
> 
> The Sonos PLAYBAR has an Optical Input (no Passthru) so relies on you first off handing your HDMI Source to your TV and in turn your TV having a DD compatible HDMI Input and Optical Output – there are better ‘Soundbar’ options that the PLAYBAR.
> 
> 
> Joe



Fair enough. These are good options to consider.


There's still the issue of the game consoles though. Going back to this centralized equipment rack model, I run my HDBaseT + speaker wires up to my TV room. It would seem to me that an additional HDBaseT system running in reverse is the only way to handle it. If the input end is by the TV and has the output end in the equipment rack connected up to the AVR, at least that portion of it remains a single-wire run. It ends up being a giant loop, but should still work. I don't think there is any way around keeping modern game consoles right by the TV.


And quick side question: Atlona has been showing their wall plate HDBaseT products for a while but I can't seem to locate them from a retailer anywhere. Does anyone have them / used them? Or should I just go with the Monprice version?


----------



## JustMike

Fair point. HDBaseT, as I understand it, doesn't support the Audio Return Channel feature of HDMI, but some HDBaseT implementations have added this. So, you might have an option there, but again, only if your remote room HAS TO HAVE surround sound for the games, as opposed to using the TV's speakers, or a local sound bar, etc.


----------



## alk3997




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sno Crash*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23971197
> 
> 
> Fair enough. These are good options to consider.
> 
> 
> There's still the issue of the game consoles though. Going back to this centralized equipment rack model, I run my HDBaseT + speaker wires up to my TV room. It would seem to me that an additional HDBaseT system running in reverse is the only way to handle it. If the input end is by the TV and has the output end in the equipment rack connected up to the AVR, at least that portion of it remains a single-wire run. It ends up being a giant loop, but should still work. I don't think there is any way around keeping modern game consoles right by the TV.
> 
> 
> And quick side question: Atlona has been showing their wall plate HDBaseT products for a while but I can't seem to locate them from a retailer anywhere. Does anyone have them / used them? Or should I just go with the Monprice version?



Depends on the console. With a PS3, if you are within 30 feet the Bluetooth controllers will still work. I also use a Schmartz controller to use a universal remote with the PS3. Great little device.
http://www.schmartz.com/collections/frontpage/products/ps3ir-1000 


Unfortunately I can't tell you how the PS4 works out yet.


----------



## Sno Crash




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alk3997*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23969260
> 
> 
> Well, anything is possible. Here are the reasons I wouldn't do that:
> 
> 
> 1) Mixing a high speed digital signal with a high-level analog signal. This would be an excellent way to introduce noise into the audio signal and noise into the digital video signal. Now VGA coexisted on the DVI lines with the digital signal but VGA wasn't a high level (amplified) signal.
> 
> 2) You would probably also want a way to control and "tune" the audio signal, including balancing, EQ (with something like Audyssey) and delay responses. So, you would have to control whatever is producing the audio signal. So, you'll also need a way to access the AVR's functions (or whatever is producing the amplified signal).
> 
> 3) The gauge of cable will be very different for a long-range amplified signal than for the video signal.
> 
> 4) Not sure a combined cable is going to save you that much room in-wall since you would have to insulate the speaker lines and then wrap a bigger insulator around the whole assembly. May actually be bigger than the combined separate wires.
> 
> 
> You can do this by having your AVR in a separate equipment closet (control room). From the AVR run cat 6/HDMI for the video and speaker cable for the 5.1-channel or 7.1-channel audio. For a wall plate, try one of these:
> 
> http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042503&p_id=6907&seq=1&format=2
> 
> 
> It looks like one set of connections unless you know what is in the wall. The TV will get video from HDMI and the 5.1-channel/7.1-channel speakers will get a full multichannel mix.
> 
> 
> What you mentioned starts making more sense if you can feed the digital audio signal directly to the speakers. But then each speaker requires its own D/A converter, control logic (for tuning) and amplifier.



Ok, ok, so how how about this: you can buy a wall plate HDBaseT kit. At the remote end, you take the HDMI signal through one of those small splitters which give you an optical audio out, and HDMI pass through. Monoprice makes one. Granted, the optical wont get you the HD audio formats, but you can get multichannel into a decent powered soundbar. Meets my 3.1 requirement.


Now, smash those two products into a single wall plate device. Yah?


----------



## turls




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sno Crash*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23971197
> 
> 
> Fair enough. These are good options to consider.
> 
> 
> There's still the issue of the game consoles though. Going back to this centralized equipment rack model, I run my HDBaseT + speaker wires up to my TV room. It would seem to me that an additional HDBaseT system running in reverse is the only way to handle it. If the input end is by the TV and has the output end in the equipment rack connected up to the AVR, at least that portion of it remains a single-wire run. It ends up being a giant loop, but should still work. I don't think there is any way around keeping modern game consoles right by the TV.



If you want to combine a lot of different sources in different locations into a whole house matrix, a better solution is made by JustAddPower. But their solution is proprietary. I looked hard at it, but I went with HDBaseT.


----------



## alk3997

Just a reminder that JustAddPower does not produce a true HDMI output, particularly with high resolution audio and any video above 1080p/60 with 8 bit color. It also depends upon how loaded-down your local network is and how good your ethernet switches are.


I'm not sure that is a "better solution" just a different solution.


----------



## Joe Fernand

Sno Crash – as Andy says either centralise your games console and control it remotely or have it ‘in zone’ and potentially send back its Optical Out over a single CAT cable using a lower cost Optical over CAT extender.


HD over LAN (no matter who’s badge is on the box) has to compress the video signal – it’s not a show killer for Commercial applications or smaller TV's but it looks ‘unnatural’ on a larger TV if you are used to viewing non-compressed HDMI.


We have recently introduced our own solution and its being going well in the commercial market - http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI_extender_LAN_HDDSX.html 


Joe


----------



## Sno Crash




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joe Fernand*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/150#post_23975034
> 
> 
> Sno Crash – as Andy says either centralise your games console and control it remotely or have it ‘in zone’ and potentially send back its Optical Out over a single CAT cable using a lower cost Optical over CAT extender.
> 
> 
> HD over LAN (no matter who’s badge is on the box) has to compress the video signal – it’s not a show killer for Commercial applications or smaller TV's but it looks ‘unnatural’ on a larger TV if you are used to viewing non-compressed HDMI.
> 
> 
> We have recently introduced our own solution and its being going well in the commercial market - http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI_extender_LAN_HDDSX.html
> 
> 
> Joe



Whoah, this is a twist I didn't know about. Are you saying HDBaseT is compressed? I just read one of the Valens whitepapers on it, and they say its uncompressed. Are they pulling some kind of trickery to send the signal that you think a larger display would show artifacting or quality loss? That would be really unfortunate.

http://www.valens.com/assets/docs/9_0511%20The%20Need%20for%20Uncompressed%20Home%20Network%20White%20Paper.pdf


----------



## Joe Fernand

HD over LAN is compressed (which is why you have to call it HD and not HDMI).


HDMI over HDBaseT is uncompressed.


Joe


----------



## alk3997




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sno Crash*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/150#post_23976084
> 
> 
> Whoah, this is a twist I didn't know about. Are you saying HDBaseT is compressed? I just read one of the Valens whitepapers on it, and they say its uncompressed. Are they pulling some kind of trickery to send the signal that you think a larger display would show artifacting or quality loss? That would be really unfortunate.
> 
> http://www.valens.com/assets/docs/9_0511%20The%20Need%20for%20Uncompressed%20Home%20Network%20White%20Paper.pdf



Backup a bit. HDBaseT is _not_ over a LAN. It uses cat5e/6 cables but you do not hook HDBaseT into your existing network. HDBaseT has its own dedicated cat5e/6 line and at the sink, the same HDMI audio and video signal emerges as went into the HDBaseT encoder.


JustAddPower (and similar devices) sends an HD signal over your existing LAN as part of network traffic. Then on the sink side, the network traffic gets converted back to HDMI, but that signal is not the same signal that went into the JustAddPower devices. It is a similar signal but not the same signal.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alk3997*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/150#post_23977218
> 
> 
> JustAddPower (and similar devices) sends an HD signal over your existing LAN as part of network traffic.


They pretty much require a dedicated gigabit LAN for acceptable performance.


----------



## Joe Fernand

Agree with Colm – we have been advising folk to provide a dedicated backbone for our HD over LAN solution and not try to run it over a system already running network traffic.


Joe


----------



## AV_Integrated

I've implemented IPTV HD solutions and it has run as a VLAN on their systems without issue, but the signal is a joke compared to what the original source looked like. Certainly it is possible to get better quality than what I've seen from the system, but it eats up bandwidth from the network rather quickly. I love the concept, but question the reality. It's not HDBaseT, not by a long shot. HD over LAN is just a different solution, and it doesn't stack up right now.


----------



## Colm

It has its place, but the very idea is ludicrous. In some applications, mostly commercial, the loss of image quality isn't a significant issue. Thank the short sighted display engineers who gave us HDMI for creating a market for this in the consumer market . All our media are compressed. The source decompresses it and sends it out on HDMI. And what does this sort of product do to send the resulting signal long distances, recompress and uncompress it again. A better way to do it is to send the compressed image to the sink and let it uncompress it. Then you might actually do it on a shared network, or the internet. Smart TVs do this when streaming video from the web. Now we just need it for BD players, etc.


----------



## marcusadolfsson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sno Crash*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/120#post_23967303
> 
> 
> So I have to set up this crazy HDBaseT run for video, then run enough speaker wire to power 4, 5, maybe even up to 11 speakers depending on surround setup. Or, I have to break the centralization model and put a big ugly receiver in the room. And if the speakers are nice, I have to put the amp there too. At that point, why bother with centralizing? I can't. And then why bother with hdbaset?



I in the same boat as you, with a centralized AV rack and wanted to keep True HD etc available from all sources. Crestron solved this with a version of their Digital Media Switcher Output cards ( http://www.crestron.com/resources/product_and_programming_resources/catalogs_and_brochures/online_catalog/default.asp?jump=1&model=DMCO# ) that offers a mirrored HDBaseT output and local HDMI output, with the local HDMI being used for a centralized receiver and the HDBaseT for the display. They also offer source input cards that downmixes the sound into stereo, to be routed in whole-house speakers matrix (a whole other issue)


Unfortunately it is rather pricey. I have the smaller Crestron DM 6x6 Matrix switcher which only offers one HDBaseT output per zone (and one zone with HDMI output) like most matrix switchers. In my house I currently have:


Theater -> Local HDMI output -> AV Receiver -> Projector

Game Room -> HDBaseT -> Local Receiver -> TV

Guest Room -> HDBaseT -> Local Sony Soundbar (which accepts True HD etc) -> TV

Gym Room -> HDBaseT -> Local Sony Soundbar (which accepts True HD etc) -> TV


For the two remaining zones where I have the receivers centrally located, I currently run audio in a parallel S/PDIF infrastructure. Luckily all my current sources are able to output both lossless codec over HDMI and legacy bitstreams over S/PDIF simultaneously. The sources feed into a separate S/PDIF matrix (an old composite video matrix which is controlled via the Crestron system to match the HDMI zones) and out to the respective AV receiver.


Master Bed Room -> HDBaseT -> TV (with S/PDIF audio in a separate infrastructure)

Living Room -> HDBaseT -> TV (with S/PDIF audio in a separate infrastructure)


Ideally would like to locally mirror the HDMI feed straight out of the matrix, just likely the pricey Crestron solution. I am going to order this HDBaseT Repeater ( http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10914&cs_id=1091406&p_id=10685&seq=1&format=2 ), which offers HDBaseT In along with HDBaseT and HDMI Out.



Matrix Living Room Zone (HDBaseT Out) -> short cable to Repeater (HDBaseT In)

-> HDBaseT -> TV

-> In-Rack AV Receiver (HMDI)


Will let you know if it works!


----------



## turls

I think this should be in this thread and may even need to be in post #2 when it is widely available:

http://www.cepro.com/article/genius_vanco_boost_converts_old_hdmi_cables_to_hdbaset/ 


And here is the annoying gotcha on this stuff in a video matrix. If you are running to a AVR before you send the signal on to the actual room endpoint, you have to have *two* sets of converters unless you have HDBaseT in the AVR, which of course 99.9% of them don't. So now you have more extenders to buy, provide power to, and have additional points of failure.


----------



## enable2705

I have Direct TV and BD running through a Pioneer SC-79. Cat6 cable running from the Pioneer (built in HDBaseT) to a HDBaseT receiver with HDMI out. I can get my 5 year old Sony Bravia to play perfectly, unfortunately the Sony VPL-HW50ES will not respond. The VPL-HW50ES works fine when I directly plug BD or Direct TV into the unit. Any thoughts? I'm at a loss!


----------



## alk3997

Sounds like a firmware problem in the Pioneer to me. The Pioneer is not decoding the EDID from the newer Sony properly.


Make sure you have the latest firmware in all boxes. Then try disabling all HDMI options in the Sony and Pioneer including Deep Color and CEC. If that doesn't work try setting the Pioneer to 1080i. Basically try different EDID values and see if you can bypass the bad programming.


----------



## Marc Ferrari

With regard to the 4x4 matrix switches. I'm curious if anyone has considered or seen an application where by the IR blasts sent out from the remote control were copied into an IR capable cell phone (Galaxy S4 for example). Eliminating the need for yet another remote control?


I bought a Galaxy Note 3 10.1 2014 for Christmas and it has a couple IR Apps and a built in blaster. I thought it might be interesting to make it touch screen.


----------



## kertofer

I just picked up an HDBASET extender from Monoprice for 200 bucks and it works like a champ. Installation was easy and straight forward and the IR has been flawless for me as well. My long term plan is to have a signal distributed to 4 TV's around the house. One is my projector, which does not need to be extended, and the other 3 are going to ne extended.


Has anyone tried hooking up these HDBASET extenders to an HDMI splitter? I ask because I have an existing splitter and it would be very handy, not to mention cheaper, for me to get 2 more of these extenders and just hang all 3 of them off of my splitter versus getting an HDBASET splitter.


----------



## Klutzy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kertofer*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/150#post_24150572
> 
> 
> I just picked up an HDBASET extender from Monoprice for 200 bucks and it works like a champ. Installation was easy and straight forward and the IR has been flawless for me as well. My long term plan is to have a signal distributed to 4 TV's around the house. One is my projector, which does not need to be extended, and the other 3 are going to ne extended.
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried hooking up these HDBASET extenders to an HDMI splitter? I ask because I have an existing splitter and it would be very handy, not to mention cheaper, for me to get 2 more of these extenders and just hang all 3 of them off of my splitter versus getting an HDBASET splitter.



Which extender did you get from Monoprice?


----------



## turls

Monoprice HDBaseT offerings are confusing. They have a category dedicated to it:

http://www.monoprice.com/Category?c_id=109&cp_id=10914 


But that doesn't have what is probably their most popular offering:

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8122&seq=1&format=2 


Which is only listed as a "HDMI Extender" until you read the description and it confirms it is HDBaseT (well, "HDBase-T" which I hope isn't some non-certified Chinese knockoff of the standard).


If you need ethernet extended as well, you need this, but I don't even think it says anywhere that it is HDBaseT, although I'm pretty sure it is.

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8123&seq=1&format=2 


Is anybody here using anything from Monoprice _besides_ these two I directly linked to?


----------



## jeonunh

I just bought this unit from Monoprice: PID #10224

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10914&cs_id=1091401&p_id=10224&seq=1&format=2 


I tested it with the shielded CAT6 I planned to run though the wall and it worked during my quick test. After I finished cutting a half dozen holes in the wall to run the wire from the TV mounting location to the basement I tested again to make sure the wire wasn't picking up any interference. Again, it worked fine with limited testing.


I proceeded to patch all the holes, then hooked it up again, and it lost link after a few minutes. Unplugging the receiver and plugging it back in restored the link, but that will be pretty much impossible to do once the TV is mounted. I was concerned, so I wanted to see if I could figure out if it could be caused by any type of interference. I left it plugged in to see if the link loss coincided with anything in the house. (Light switch, furnace coming on, etc)


The link held solid for 24 hours. I plugged in a source and a tv to play with it before mounting the TV permanently, and there was no picture. Reset the unit, still no picture. Swapped HDMI cables, no picture. Brought the extender unit up from the basement and connected the units together with a 6 foot CAT6 cable, no picture.


I tried everything I could think of, and despite showing a link and even HDCP connections, I couldn't get a picture. The network and IR functions seemed to work, so it was only the HDMI function that stopped working. I'm returning it and trying something else... Unfortunately this delays mounting my tv... I would suggest avoiding this particular device.


----------



## alk3997

Sorry you are having problems with this. But, you showed the reason for doing proper testing (as you did) before installing in-wall.


You provided a well written review above. I noticed that Monoprice has no user reviews for this product. Maybe a copy and paste opportunity on the Monoprice website?


----------



## AV_Integrated

Yeah, definitely get the review up on the MP website. It is great that MP sells such inexpensive items, unfortunately, their power supplies and overall build quality, at times, can be really poor.


I've had mixed results with their stand along HDBT extenders. My most common failure has been power supplies, but, I have several which have been installed and working for several years.


My recommendation remains the same: At 50' or less, run a HDMI cable. Heck, at 75' or less, run a HDMI cable. The Monoprice 22AWG (garden hose) HDMI cables may be bulky, but they carry a signal that distance and work very reliably with zero active components. Throw in a couple of cat-5e/6 cables for good measure.


I will say that I've seen cat cables be the issue as well over the years, but if you test with a couple of different cat cables, and none of them work, then it is likely in the Tx/Rx units or their respective power supplies.


----------



## cdika17

What other options are there beside the monoprice hdbaset products that wont break the bank?


----------



## Colm

Depends on your bank. What are you willing to spend?


----------



## Joe Fernand

Do you have to have wall plate style units?


Joe


----------



## Odeen

Hello,


Is there such a thing as an HDbaseT _splitter_? Not an HDMI to 4 HDBaseT converter, but simply a distribution amp for an existing HDBaseT signal.


Basically, all my in-wall CAT5 runs down to a small wiring closet (more of a wiring cupboard, really) in the garage. My source (DirecTV receiver) is in the living room, and I don't want to keep it in the garage.


So, what I'd like to do is connect the DirecTV receiver to an HDBaseT transmitter with a local HDMI out. The HDBaseT signal would run to the wiring closet, and into a splitter, where it would be distributed to the other locations.


I realize I can have a transmitter in the living room, then a receiver and a regular HDMI to 4 HDBaseT transmitter in the garage, but it seems wasteful, and the double HDMI-HDBaseT conversion is more likely to cause issues.



Thanks!


----------



## Joe Fernand

Devices with HDBaseT (RJ45) Inputs are beginning to appear so you will start to see Distribution Amp’s with both HDMI and RJ45 (HDBaseT) Inputs and multiple HDMI and RJ45 (HDBaseT) Outputs with Integrated IR Routing, though you may be slightly ahead of the game in wanting one now.


We have created a fair few ‘cascaded’ systems utilising our HDBaseT/HDBaseT-lite Tx/Rx plus our HDMI Distribution Amps and have found it to be a reliable solution.


Joe


----------



## Luis Guilherme

I never saw one hdbaset matrix working so i have some doubts..


1- Does it has fast switching?

2- EDID management is good? When i switch any input at one room, other room stay with the image without losing connection?

3- What are my best options with a budget about $3000 for a 4x4 matrix

4- i was looking for this one
http://www.kvmswitchtech.com/4x4-hdbaset-hdmi-matrix-switch-with-four-power-over-ethernet-poe-receivers-and-tcpip-control-p50769.htm 


Anyone know something about it? I liked cause has tcpip control and i can do a driver for control4 and use on it


5- i have more than 4 sources, can i use any other matrix or switch on it without loosing connection? Anyone can tell me what is my best options on switchers? i have as source, Wii U, ps3, ps4, xbox one, xbox 360, htpc, oppo bd93, cable tv.... Should i buy a 8x8 matrix because of that? My problem it will be budget but i llook for the shinybow matrix, any good review on it?



All my tvs and projector are 1080P



Thank you


----------



## Joe Fernand

Hello Luis


HDBaseT is on the Output stage of the Matrix – your questions related to the Input ‘front end’ of a Matrix so the answers are not universal across all Matrix which employ HDBaseT on the Output side..


HDCP is the mechanism which causes blanking on ‘connected/linked’ Zones not EDID.


Eight Inputs ramps up the price considerably!


You can pre-select Sources via a Switch (or multiple Switch) plugged to the Input side of a Matrix – though where you are using ‘Routed’ IR the Matrix provides that may prove slightly clunky to manage without careful planning.


Have a look at our Cardframe Matrix – 4 Inputs with up to 8 Outputs, as a 4x4 it fits your budget, includes fast switching and no-blinking between connected Zones and is HDBaseT-lite (60m single CAT with PoC).

http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI_Matrix_HDbaseT_HD4xSTPMX_over%20CAT6.html 


Joe


----------



## Luis Guilherme

Joe, thanks for your help.

I didnt know the major problem it will be dhcp. So if i use any 5x1 switch at any matrix input, should work? I will have any edid problem or dhcp?

I got a quote to buy a SnapAV binary 4x4 matrix with 4 receivers ...$3200. I liked the ip control and compatibility with my control4 system. But i also dont know how it will be to use a hdmi switch over it. so i can increase my number of inputs.


My major problem now is my ps4 and ps3 that cant work with my crappy monoprice matrix. It seems that my problem is my receivers ( marantz nr1604, 8801 and a denon 3313)

When i connect directly at my TV from monoprice matrix. Everything works fine. But when the signal needs to pass over the receivers... i dont have image, blank issues, blinking , handshake problems, etc...


How does hdbaset matrix works at this scenario?


----------



## Joe Fernand

‘So if i use any 5x1 switch at any matrix input, should work?’ – I’m not promising that







, we can make it work but within limits of which Switch/Matrix work together.


IP control (we have – basic at present), Control4 – we have an RS232 port so not a problem to get our kit to work with any control system.


‘How does hdbaset matrix works at this scenario?’ – again it’s not HDBaseT alone which will dictate how your system handles working via AVR’s and multiple layers of kit.


We work hard on how we handle and cope with EDID and HDCP to try and ensure your system is stable – USB is a life saver in terms of being able to quickly upload firmware to the Matrix as and when you hit a problem.


Joe


----------



## rockstar0215

Is there a complete list of devices that implement the HDBase-T standard? I see the first two posts have a few devices, but that was a few years ago. Perhaps having a master list would help with research when buying.


----------



## AV_Integrated

There are hundreds, if not thousands of products out there that are now using HDBT. The real issue is not with HDBT, but with the implementation of the backbone of the system which drives it. Some have poor power supplies, some implement power on one end for the units, the matrices are ALL over the place with almost zero reviews out there.


I think the extenders are all pretty solid, but I would love to see some solid reviews of the different matrices out there as they really carry a hefty price tag and don't seem to have any really solid reviews and feature sets written up about them, even from major manufacturers such as AMX, Extron, and Crestron.


----------



## rockstar0215




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV_Integrated*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24641390
> 
> 
> There are hundreds, if not thousands of products out there that are now using HDBT. The real issue is not with HDBT, but with the implementation of the backbone of the system which drives it. Some have poor power supplies, some implement power on one end for the units, the matrices are ALL over the place with almost zero reviews out there.
> 
> 
> I think the extenders are all pretty solid, but I would love to see some solid reviews of the different matrices out there as they really carry a hefty price tag and don't seem to have any really solid reviews and feature sets written up about them, even from major manufacturers such as AMX, Extron, and Crestron.



No reviews is the biggest problem. That's the problem I am getting into now trying to research these things before I buy.


----------



## john stephens




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rockstar0215*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24644887
> 
> 
> No reviews is the biggest problem. That's the problem I am getting into now trying to research these things before I buy.




MY Review of Monoprice 4 by 4 HDBaseT Matrix


Pros: Excellent performance as a 4x4 HDBaseT Matrix switch.

Very good proactive Support from Monoprice Techs.

Meets all my requirements for the matrix



Cons: Proper use of the IR transmitters can be a bit confusing. This is a possible user shortfall and not a problem/defect with the switch.


Let me begin by noting that my installation is quite complex. My four sources include:

1. A Motorola based Comcast HD Set Top Box

2. An HDMI Output from a Denon AVR-3312CI, which has first been relayed through a Monoprice 1X4 w Cat5 out Splitter. This run brings the Denon output to my Node Zero Utility Room where the switch is located. Denon's attached sources include a Sony BluRay player, Sony 995 400 disc DVD changer, Vintage Pioneer laser Disc player and a Mitsubishi VCR. Too, the Denon's sources include the HDMI output from an Onkyo NR 626, the output of which, has been fed to the Denon though a Monoprice 2X4 Switch from another room.

3. A Samsung Ipolis Surveillance DVR output is connected after having its VGA output Scaled to 1080P

4. Finally an Apple TV device is connected to the fourth port.

All of this works flawlessly with excellent sparkle free 1080P performance at my four sink locations.

A word about my run lengths is in order here, I happen to own a Time Domain Reflectometer(TDR) with which I was able measure the lengths of each of my Cat5e cable runs. These turned out to be between 90 to 130 feet. And my in house cable plant is wired with 568A throughout. Note that all manufacturers of HDBaseT recommend 568B cable plants and that it is claimed that there is a length penalty for using 568A. It's therefore good to have an idea of your distances and wiring format.

Now regarding IR, I had some initial difficulties which turned out to be due to my lack of understanding of just how the IR TX/RX's worked. After some false starts and some further understanding, I am happy to report that all my sources are being suitably IR controlled.

Let me point out that three of my sources are Network devices(Denon AVR-3312, Onkyo 626 and AppleTV) As such, these devices can be controlled by Ipad/Iphone Apps, in addition to IR.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *john stephens*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24694714
> 
> 
> ...all manufacturers of HDBaseT recommend 568B cable plants...


No, I have seen some that specify 568A. And I have it direct from Valens that it doesn't matter either way. Manufacturers specify 568A or 568B so the average consumer actually has a chance of making the gear work. There are other ways of terminating the cables that will work as well. Both ends of the cable just have to be terminated the same way and each TMDS pair needs to use a single pair in the cable.


> Quote:
> ...it is claimed that there is a length penalty for using 568A.


I have never seen that claim, but regardless, it is no more true for HDBaseT than for 10GBaseT Ethernet with which it shares a lot of technology.


----------



## john stephens

Hi Colm,


I am not trying to drive that claim. My point here is that my own installation is 568A based and it DOES work. As to the distance penalty, I have seen it made many times with explanations based on the twist rate differences of the O/OW pair compared to the G/GW pair. Indeed I have seen references to as much as 30% penalty. But, again, my point here is that the proof is in the pudding, If your plant works, it works. Mine works perfectly with 568A.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *john stephens*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24695660
> 
> 
> ...I have seen it made many times with explanations based on the twist rate differences of the O/OW pair compared to the G/GW pair. Indeed I have seen references to as much as 30% penalty.


Yeah, if it is on the internet, it must be true, right? You need to vet your sources so you don't pass on BS like that. Are you sure they were referring to at 30% difference between types of cable?


----------



## john stephens

Look, I am not pining for a huge debate on this. Indeed, I have heard it even from Crestron. In writing. It's also in the Monoprice docs on their matrix. Now, you tell me one matrix manufacture that claims to reach 330ft using 568A based wiring. And we are both on the internet; making claims at that.


----------



## Colm

 Here is what the HDBaseT Alliance has to say about the matter.


Would you please post a link to the text that says T568A will give you 30% less distance for HDBaseT than T568A. I would like to read it for myself.


Your use of monoprice as a reference made me laugh...


----------



## wagsgt

I've searched and looked at diagrams but if you want to watch different TV shows you would have to have multiple DVR's, connected to the main HDBaseT,correct? Thanks


----------



## Colm

I don't see what this has to do with HDBaseT. Maybe another forum? Or at least more information?


----------



## john stephens




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24698796
> 
> Here is what the HDBaseT Alliance has to say about the matter.
> 
> 
> Would you please post a link to the text that says T568A will give you 30% less distance for HDBaseT than T568A. I would like to read it for myself.
> 
> 
> Your use of monoprice as a reference made me laugh...



No reason for insults here. Indeed, as I pointed out, I didn't intend to start a debate. But you still did not list a matrix manufacturer which claimed to reach the 330' using 568 A. And your quote from the Alliance was omitted from your reply.

Now there are plausible technical reasons why a particular cat5,cat6X pair might be specified for this application. First, unlike Ethernet, HDBaseT is a dramatically asymmetric technology. Means that the data rates from source to sink are many times faster than those from sink to source. With your boastfulness, I am sure you know that this implies much higher signal to noise requirements in the forward direction than in the reverse. Too, you will know, hopefully that the pair twist rate is the main weapon theses pairs have against noise. That the green pair has a 16% greater twist rate than the orange pair. hence data transmitted on the green pair would be expected to have less externally induced noise. hence higher signal to noise ratio. Any engineer worth his salt would not fail know these simple facts.

As for Valens, surely they would do everything possible to make sure that various vendors were not using arbitrary p airs to transmit their forward data signals. Indeed, that's the main reason for standards on HDBaseT. BTW, how much Digital Signal Process Theory do you know?

Finally,, an admonition for potential consumers; the matrices are expensive and can't be casually deployed with arbitrary cable installs. The most likely weak link is the set of generally unknown cables behind the walls of our homes. It's prudent to find out as much as possible about that infrastructure, to include cable type, punch down, type, cable length and even cable bundling. All of this, because noise mitigation is absolutely necessary to transmit these multi Gbit/sec signals reliably.


----------



## john stephens

Here is a bit of information theory to better explain why/how two similar twisted pairs might differ dramatically. Back in 1949, C. E. Shannon derived a fundamental theory to express the maximum rate of digital data transmission through a medium of bandwidth B. Thus:


Maximum bits/sec = bandwidth*Log2(1 +S/N) where S is the signal level and N is the externally induced noise.

Shannon showed clearly that no matte how clever you encode your data, you can never exceed this performance. Too, that if you increase bit rate throughput by, say, M-mary encoding, you do so at the expense of increased signal to noise requirements.

If we apply this theory to our two twisted pairs which are similar in all respects except each has different susceptibility to induced noise, we can write for each pair:


C/B = Log2(1 + S1/N1) and


C/B = Log2(1 + S2/N2) , where we are injecting identical data streams into each of these two pairs.


It follows from these two equations that


1 + S1/N1 =1 + S2/N2 or S1/S2 = N1/N2


We all know that the Signals decrease exponentially with distance through the cable, with S1 = S0 Exp(-a(f)*L1 etc. and similarly for pair 2


We seek the transmission length advantage, (L1 - L2) that pair 1 has over pair 2. Evidently:


Exp(a*(L2 - L1)) = N1/N2, which, upon taking the natural log of both sides, yields


a*(L2 - L1) = Ln(N1/N2), where, by way of reminder, N1 and N2 are the generally different levels of induced noise.


With all this, the statement that there is a possible 30% penalty for transmitting on the orange pair instead of the green pair, amounts to, L2 = 0.7*L1, so that


0.3a*L1 =Ln(N2/N1)


And all of this is quite rigorous and all that's required here is to input a reasonable value for the cable attenuation at 100 MHz to calculate the ratio of induced noise.


So the claim of such a difference is not as far fetched as it might seem to some folks.


----------



## lowend15


Hey guys,

 

Thanks for all of the information.  I am sort of stuck at a crossroads as what to do.  I have a run from my closet that is nearing 50 cable feet to my AVR and cannot decide which way to go.  (as crow flies, it is like 10', but up 12, down 12, plus device loops...grr)

 

I have 2" conduits, so that isn't the issue, but I am going to want to get up in my attic once.

 

I cannot decide whether I should buy a "decent" large monoprice HDMI, a blue jeans HDMI (more pricey), or a bunch of redmere HDMIs (and run 1 spare each way, I'm terrified of active failures...).  I hate to spend an extra 200-400 bucks on a HDBaseT solution if I don't have to.

 

Either way I will be running (4) cat 6 as well just in case, and the builder already has 2 cat5e.

 

I read earlier on that if it is 50-75', just run a solid HDMI.  I think that is true for most cases unless it is to a notoriously finnicky projector or something...is that your experience?  And then of course, what is "solid?"

 

I was also toying with inserting a matrix switcher in the closet and putting as much stuff in there as possible.  But I was thinking it may be best to use my main receiver for that and not have another device in the chain causing EDID issues, etc.  The picture below shows sort of the "ideal" scenario", whereas I am mostly considering putting the BluRay and Game in the family room.  So really I may only need one HDMI each way..but if I run redmere, I would run spare each way.  

 

I plan on getting a Denon X4000 and using the zone 2 for whole house audio and Zone 3 for Master Bedroom.  Any help is appreciated.  AVS Forum is awesome!


----------



## john stephens

All of this is so subjective and depends mainly on your own desires. I will, nonetheless, stat how I might organize this if I had the neat Denon AVR4000. First I'd take my main cherry picked HDMI sources(befitting) and mount them in the Family Room(Media Room) with the Denon. I'd run the Zone 2 output from the Denon to the closet for distribution for use at future locations around the home. For that run, I might explore the use of a 40-50- HDMI cable to save bucks. Before installing this cable, though, I would test it to see if it transmits my most demanding HD signal. Think 1080P or more and 3D etc. If this works, I would use that. This gets your Denon Audio and video out to the closet. In the closet I would use 4 by 4 HDBaseT Matrix for further distribution throughout. The Denon zone 2 output, of course, would be one of the sources. Pick three more sources for the switch and you are set to go. I am assuming, here that your whole house audio receiver will also be located in this closet. If the option is available, I would use Cat6 cables with the switch; else cat5e. This is just a sketch to get you started.


----------



## john stephens

I'm just wondering whether there are others here that have a 4 by 4 or more, HDBaset matrix installed? If so, what brands and how would you rate your particular solution? Based on my review of the thread it's not clear to me how many actual users there are here.


----------



## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *john stephens*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24765694
> 
> 
> I'm just wondering whether there are others here that have a 4 by 4 or more, HDBaset matrix installed? If so, what brands and how would you rate your particular solution? Based on my review of the thread it's not clear to me how many actual users there are here.


Installed? Not yet. I think most people get up to about a 4x4 setup and then disappear.


I've got the equipment for a 16x16 setup and will be using some of it to start off with. Actually, all my outputs are HDMI at this point, but the inputs are mostly HDBT. I will switch out cards as necessary. Since it is Crestron DM, I have all the flexibility in the world.


----------



## john stephens




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV_Integrated*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24768683
> 
> 
> Installed? Not yet. I think most people get up to about a 4x4 setup and then disappear.
> 
> 
> I've got the equipment for a 16x16 setup and will be using some of it to start off with. Actually, all my outputs are HDMI at this point, but the inputs are mostly HDBT. I will switch out cards as necessary. Since it is Crestron DM, I have all the flexibility in the world.



Yes! I am familiar with the DM box, outstanding stuff. Pricey, though. As I recall, that's the one where you can purchase a variety of input card types, with or without HDBT. But I thought the output slots were all HDBT. No?

Do you intend to use Crestron cables or to use it with your own pre installed?


----------



## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *john stephens*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24777297
> 
> 
> Yes! I am familiar with the DM box, outstanding stuff. Pricey, though. As I recall, that's the one where you can purchase a variety of input card types, with or without HDBT. But I thought the output slots were all HDBT. No?
> 
> Do you intend to use Crestron cables or to use it with your own pre installed?


I have my own HDMI cables and HDMI extenders that I intend to use with it. I actually have HDMI cables throughout my home which have all been tested up to 75' in length without issue, but I do have cat cabling at those locations as well... You know, just in case.


Crestron DM has a variety of input cards which are available. Those cards are purchased by the input type. They have DM in copper and fiber versions as well as HDMI, component, DVI, and composite inputs, so you can mix things up. I think they also just added some streaming options as well (I haven't looked to closely at that yet, it may just be an output type). For outputs they have DM over copper and fiber (20 miles to your display? No problem!) as well as HDMI outputs. Their outputs are sold as 4 or 8 output cards, with matching pairs depending on the switcher. So, if you have a switcher that uses the 4 output card, then it could be 2 HDMI outputs and 2 DM copper outputs, but it can't be 3 DM copper outputs and 1 HDMI output. Actually, that's not quite true since their DM outputs have a mirrored HDMI output, but we'll call that a close enough example.


I got some very good pricing on everything, so my 16x16 was put together for under $4,000. I'm still going through and testing everything though. My DM input cards are all DSP models so I get analog stereo out of all my HDMI sources to feed my audio distribution system. It's going to be really nice when completed and has a fair bit of room for growth since I only have five TVs setup in the house right now. Plans are for around six or seven more TVs when I finish the basement... crazy fun stuff. But, I have almost a dozen video sources I already have to deal with, so the 16 inputs may still not be enough to make me happy. Meh, no more room in my rack! This is why HDBT needs to add ARC to the design.


----------



## BornSlippyZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeonunh*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/150#post_24281957
> 
> 
> I just bought this unit from Monoprice: PID #10224
> 
> http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10914&cs_id=1091401&p_id=10224&seq=1&format=2
> 
> 
> I tested it with the shielded CAT6 I planned to run though the wall and it worked during my quick test. After I finished cutting a half dozen holes in the wall to run the wire from the TV mounting location to the basement I tested again to make sure the wire wasn't picking up any interference. Again, it worked fine with limited testing.
> 
> 
> I proceeded to patch all the holes, then hooked it up again, and it lost link after a few minutes. Unplugging the receiver and plugging it back in restored the link, but that will be pretty much impossible to do once the TV is mounted. I was concerned, so I wanted to see if I could figure out if it could be caused by any type of interference. I left it plugged in to see if the link loss coincided with anything in the house. (Light switch, furnace coming on, etc)
> 
> 
> The link held solid for 24 hours. I plugged in a source and a tv to play with it before mounting the TV permanently, and there was no picture. Reset the unit, still no picture. Swapped HDMI cables, no picture. Brought the extender unit up from the basement and connected the units together with a 6 foot CAT6 cable, no picture.
> 
> 
> I tried everything I could think of, and despite showing a link and even HDCP connections, I couldn't get a picture. The network and IR functions seemed to work, so it was only the HDMI function that stopped working. I'm returning it and trying something else... Unfortunately this delays mounting my tv... I would suggest avoiding this particular device.



I had this problem multiple times with the 8122 and the 10225 recently. My first 8122 lasted 10 months before failing and that was the longest time with zero failure, the 10225 didn't even work out of the box. As far as these types of monoprice extenders, I am done buying them. I just ordered an Atlona HDBaseT extender to see if this will work and it seems this unit AT-HD4S140SR is a quality product and has adjustments to help the user get the full benefit of the device. Also monoprice 'tech support' is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. Lesson learned for me and I am not cheaping out on these devices again.


----------



## john stephens

Being that you are a Crestron guy, I am sure you can attest to the fact that they recommend and specify only 568B cabling for use with their HDBT boxes. Indeed, as I recall, their DM 8G cable is wired 568B and is robustly shielded Cat6x, Too, in many installs, the cabling is direct, with no punch down blocks or keystone jacks to present impedance mismatch reflections. Just TX to RX direct. Is that your experience?


----------



## john stephens




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BornSlippyZ*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24785675
> 
> 
> I had this problem multiple times with the 8122 and the 10225 recently. My first 8122 lasted 10 months before failing and that was the longest time with zero failure, the 10225 didn't even work out of the box. As far as these types of monoprice extenders, I am done buying them. I just ordered an Atlona HDBaseT extender to see if this will work and it seems this unit AT-HD4S140SR is a quality product and has adjustments to help the user get the full benefit of the device. Also monoprice 'tech support' is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. Lesson learned for me and I am not cheaping out on these devices again.



Just out of curiosity, I wonder if you terminated the shielded cat6 cables yourselves? Too, I wonder about the thermal environment behind the wall? Be advised, it is very difficult for an untrained professional installer to properly terminate a shielded cat 6 cable in the field. If there is a ground loop problem, you can get performance worse than unshielded cat5e. Just some thoughts.


----------



## BornSlippyZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *john stephens*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24794732
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, I wonder if you terminated the shielded cat6 cables yourselves? Too, I wonder about the thermal environment behind the wall? Be advised, it is very difficult for an untrained professional installer to properly terminate a shielded cat 6 cable in the field. If there is a ground loop problem, you can get performance worse than unshielded cat5e. Just some thoughts.



I asked my installer this a few years ago because they are the ones that ran the two runs of Cat5e wire. This problem has persisted since I have been using extenders, first it was the regular balun type (no picture, snow bad picture), then I upgraded to the monoprice 8122 which worked for about 10 months before going out. I have had about 6 units of the 8122 and one 10225 unit. The wire is installed in my basement ceiling which never gets over 73 degree F. I did noticed the 8122 receiver part get really warm at times, I usually unplugged it after watching a movie. But as the problem persisted the common denominator was these types of extenders. I will be getting my Atlona type extender tomorrow and I guess I will see what is up. At worse if it is a Cat wire issue I guess I will have to get it reinstalled with better wire. I know stuff happens with electronics but I really doubt it is the wire since I had a long period of zero performance issues.


----------



## AV_Integrated




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *john stephens*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24794371
> 
> 
> Being that you are a Crestron guy, I am sure you can attest to the fact that they recommend and specify only 568B cabling for use with their HDBT boxes. Indeed, as I recall, their DM 8G cable is wired 568B and is robustly shielded Cat6x, Too, in many installs, the cabling is direct, with no punch down blocks or keystone jacks to present impedance mismatch reflections. Just TX to RX direct. Is that your experience?


We have run into a number of issues over the years with all HDBT solutions, including Crestron. We now have found that Crestron basically bankrolled Valens (HDBT manufacturer) for the first few years which is why Crestron is now about 7 generations deep on their solutions, while others are just playing catch up with them.


We do terminate HDBT, we have a Fluke $10,000 LAN tester which we use to verify cabling. We are now on our fourth or fifth iteration of cabling, and it's a good Cat-6 STP cable, with good ends which match and our technicians have become fairly proficient at terminations, but there is no doubt that never moving those cables after they are terminated really helps their long term reliability.


My more personal experience is that a connection which tests through fine has absolutely zero bearing on whether it will work with HDBT. I have simply reterminated cat-5e cables and they work perfectly, when two minutes before they couldn't push a signal through them at all. So, I've learned to keep bends in the cable to a minimum (sharp bends) and to put a nice solid connection in place.


----------



## john stephens

BornslippyZ, I am intrigued by your problem since I have several of those same HDBT extenders which so far have worked perfectly. This leads m e to want to know more about your installation. For example, how long are your cat6 runs? Are you transmitting signals above 1080P? Are your cables shielded or UTP? Based on my experience, if there are infrastructure issues, all the money in the world will not solve your problems. Bounce back and there may be suggestions.


----------



## john stephens




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV_Integrated*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24798751
> 
> 
> We have run into a number of issues over the years with all HDBT solutions, including Crestron. We now have found that Crestron basically bankrolled Valens (HDBT manufacturer) for the first few years which is why Crestron is now about 7 generations deep on their solutions, while others are just playing catch up with them.
> 
> 
> We do terminate HDBT, we have a Fluke $10,000 LAN tester which we use to verify cabling. We are now on our fourth or fifth iteration of cabling, and it's a good Cat-6 STP cable, with good ends which match and our technicians have become fairly proficient at terminations, but there is no doubt that never moving those cables after they are terminated really helps their long term reliability.
> 
> 
> My more personal experience is that a connection which tests through fine has absolutely zero bearing on whether it will work with HDBT. I have simply reterminated cat-5e cables and they work perfectly, when two minutes before they couldn't push a signal through them at all. So, I've learned to keep bends in the cable to a minimum (sharp bends) and to put a nice solid connection in place.



MY comments about difficulties in terminating shielded cables was not directed at professional installers. I do note in retrospect that my wording was somewhat garbled. I apologize for that snafu. My comments in that earlier post was directed at dyers who might try to do that termination.

Yes, I agree with you on all points wrt cable issues. I might diverge slightly on how much the HDBT boxes, themselves, are involved in many of these problems.

The situation is this: 10GB/sec is a lot of data to cram into these cables and transmit 330'. Everything has to be done right or there will be shortfalls, dropouts etc. The work starts in making sure your cables are fine as they lay. Then, as you say, don't disturb things.


----------



## BornSlippyZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *john stephens*  /t/1384980/the-unoffical-source-for-everything-hdbaset/180#post_24799993
> 
> 
> BornslippyZ, I am intrigued by your problem since I have several of those same HDBT extenders which so far have worked perfectly. This leads m e to want to know more about your installation. For example, how long are your cat6 runs? Are you transmitting signals above 1080P? Are your cables shielded or UTP? Based on my experience, if there are infrastructure issues, all the money in the world will not solve your problems. Bounce back and there may be suggestions.



Thankfully the new Atlona HDBT extenders worked! I had to put it into the EDID learning mode but after that and putting my AVR into the automatic HDMI mode, the picture came on! I haven't watched a full movie yet but I will tonight!


I have two cat5e runs at 35-40 foot lengths and they are shielded. Funny thing was the 10225 from monoprice didn't even work when I just plugged my ps4 to the extender rather than running it through the avr. The techs were telling me that the blinking lights on the boxes meant that is was working. I don't really know what was up and it could be a wiring problem down the road, but these extenders are usually the culprit. When I upgrade my whole room, I will rip the dry wall all out and run a conduit so I can run wires whenever I need to. Plus I will get my local HT company to test the connections if I ever install my own cables. For now my friday is going good now.


Thanks for the help on this forum!


----------



## jamesbwright

*No Audio with certain devices over HD Base T*

I have issues with my SAT receiver. I dont get Audio through my HDMI Extender. The same equipment works with no problems with my dvd player and other equipment. Any ideas on what the issue could be?


----------



## Leafrider

"Thankfully the new Atlona HDBT extenders worked! I had to put it into the EDID learning mode but after that and putting my AVR into the automatic HDMI mode, the picture came on! I haven't watched a full movie yet but I will tonight!"

What was the model numbers for the Altona HDBT Extenders, there are a few in the mix, and I'd like to go with something others have had success with. I've heard nothing but issues with Monoprice extenders, I'm not interested in wasting time trying cheap junk.

I was looking at these options, any comments?:
KanexPro:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...T50M_HDMI_Extender_over_CAT.html/prm/alsVwDtl 
Altona:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/817277-REG/Atlona_AT_HD4_SI40SR_HDMI_Extender_Kit_over.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/902675-REG/atlona_at_pro2hdrec_da_hdmi_extender_over.html


----------



## SnkEyez95

Trying to determine if using HDBaseT would be an appropriate solution. I currently have 5.1 setup in my family room with DirecTV, BD Player and my Media player connected to my receiver then a single HDMI to TV. I would like to move all my equipment into my basement and have just the TV flush mounted to the wall. The location where I would like to have my equipment in the basement would be about 100-150' way from TV so I would I would think a single HDMI cable would be less than ideal? 

Parts of my house is prewired with Cat 5 or 6 (not sure 5/6, house built in 2013). In the future I would like to run a TV in my garage with Directv and also utilize my BD player and media player in other rooms that are prewired with Cat. From my research it sounds like HDBaseT would satisfy my wants. Agree?

Few questions. How does HDBaseT integrate with receivers that have multiple devises connected to it with one HDMI out to TV? Would this setup allow me to still use those devices in other rooms independently of the other devices (i.e. - wife in bedroom watching BD player, me in garage watching DirecTV, and kids watching movies from media player in their room). Lastly I am a little unclear how the built in IR will work. Will I be able to control all my devices with their original remotes? Is there iPhone applications that you can use to control all connected rooms?

Initially for just the one main family room what equipment would I need? Down the road integrating the other rooms I would need just add a matrix device and additional decoder boxes?

I appreciate any feedback you can provide. Thanks in advance as I'm sure these questions are very remedial to most of you.


----------



## Joe Fernand

HDBT is ‘simply’ the Extender technology – with a few bells and whistles which can be handy in a distributed system.

http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI_extender_HD70STPEX.html

You can ‘extend’ the Output of the AVR over HDBT and you can also Distribute the Output to multiple Zones (rooms) using a Distribution Amp with integrated HDBT Outputs (though that then limits you to the same Source in all Zones).

You can connect the Sources to an HDBT Equipped Matrix and then Output to Multiple Zones (Inc the Zone with the AVR) – that allows any Source to any Zone (though you have to manage what audio (7.1, 5.1, 2.0) each Zone supports.

http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI_Matrix_HDbaseT_HD4xSTPMX_over%20CAT6.html

Joe


----------



## cdika17

Jumping in here quick, pre-wiring this weekend. Making sure i have everything. Here is my video plan:

Every TV location(12) - 1 stp CAT6 for balun, 1 rg6, 1 utp CAT6 for ethernet and 1 utp CAT6 for spare.
Everything ran to basement server room.
Every location has recessed TV box.

Good?


----------



## AV_Integrated

That certainly is a good plan.

I always recommend conduit to critical locations, and if you are 100% set on using HDBT and the associated expense, then it sounds like you are covered.

I ended up running long HDMI cables throughout my home and I've had good luck with them so far. Still need to drop in my switcher to really get the most of things, but so far, so good.

If you are running everything yourself, then what you are describing is what I would consider a 'minimum' run for a proper installation. Extra cables would be just ... extra. So, no real demand at this time. What you have is good.


----------



## cdika17

Joe Fernand said:


> HDBT is ‘simply’ the Extender technology – with a few bells and whistles which can be handy in a distributed system.
> 
> http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI_extender_HD70STPEX.html
> 
> You can ‘extend’ the Output of the AVR over HDBT and you can also Distribute the Output to multiple Zones (rooms) using a Distribution Amp with integrated HDBT Outputs (though that then limits you to the same Source in all Zones).
> 
> You can connect the Sources to an HDBT Equipped Matrix and then Output to Multiple Zones (Inc the Zone with the AVR) – that allows any Source to any Zone (though you have to manage what audio (7.1, 5.1, 2.0) each Zone supports.
> 
> http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI_Matrix_HDbaseT_HD4xSTPMX_over%20CAT6.html
> 
> Joe



This a viable affordable option? Seems like a decent price.


----------



## cdika17

AV_Integrated said:


> That certainly is a good plan.
> 
> I always recommend conduit to critical locations, and if you are 100% set on using HDBT and the associated expense, then it sounds like you are covered.
> 
> I ended up running long HDMI cables throughout my home and I've had good luck with them so far. Still need to drop in my switcher to really get the most of things, but so far, so good.
> 
> If you are running everything yourself, then what you are describing is what I would consider a 'minimum' run for a proper installation. Extra cables would be just ... extra. So, no real demand at this time. What you have is good.


If I'm not using HDBT, then i would need to run an HDMI cable(What AWG?), IR cable and another cat6?


----------



## john stephens

SnkEyez95 said:


> Trying to determine if using HDBaseT would be an appropriate solution. I currently have 5.1 setup in my family room with DirecTV, BD Player and my Media player connected to my receiver then a single HDMI to TV. I would like to move all my equipment into my basement and have just the TV flush mounted to the wall. The location where I would like to have my equipment in the basement would be about 100-150' way from TV so I would I would think a single HDMI cable would be less than ideal?
> 
> Parts of my house is prewired with Cat 5 or 6 (not sure 5/6, house built in 2013). In the future I would like to run a TV in my garage with Directv and also utilize my BD player and media player in other rooms that are prewired with Cat. From my research it sounds like HDBaseT would satisfy my wants. Agree?
> 
> Few questions. How does HDBaseT integrate with receivers that have multiple devises connected to it with one HDMI out to TV? Would this setup allow me to still use those devices in other rooms independently of the other devices (i.e. - wife in bedroom watching BD player, me in garage watching DirecTV, and kids watching movies from media player in their room). Lastly I am a little unclear how the built in IR will work. Will I be able to control all my devices with their original remotes? Is there iPhone applications that you can use to control all connected rooms?
> 
> Initially for just the one main family room what equipment would I need? Down the road integrating the other rooms I would need just add a matrix device and additional decoder boxes?
> 
> I appreciate any feedback you can provide. Thanks in advance as I'm sure these questions are very remedial to most of you.


I've been away for a while but just checked back in. Since it doesn't appear that all your questions have been addressed yet, I thought I'd chime in.
First, if your house was built in 2013, all your CatX cables are likely Cat5e or Cat6, so you are good to go for an HDBaseT run of 150 feet.
As for your hook up, you can do similar to what I have done and use an N by N HDBaseT Matrix switch. Feed one Cat5e(6) back to our Media Room and other s to the various rooms you desire to include.
IR and Lan will both distribute on that same cable to the various rooms. And yes, the Remotes for each of your sources will work to control from any remote room.
There is a possibility for interruption in the since that if someone in the bedroom, say, decides to change the cable channel while you are watching that same source. A work around might be to restrict certain Room IR feeds to a mere subset of the sources.
For the media room, itself, I recommend that you provide a few dedicated sources.
Not sure I've addressed all your questions but hopefully these answers will hep.


----------



## BudgetFail

Does anyone have a current list of TVs that support true 5-play receiving of video, audio, control, Ethernet, and Power? That is, if I buy a 16x16 HDBT matrix that supports 5-play, are there any TVs that I can mount on the wall and connect a single CAT6 cable to? No power receptacle, no IR blaster/receiver, and no HDBaseT receiver behind the TV - just one cable magic.


----------



## Joe Fernand

_'Does anyone have a current list of TVs that support true 5-play' -_ I suspect that list may be less than one!


Other than a handful of Commercial 'Install' Projectors and 'Hotel' TV's (none of which are 5-Play) - I haven't seen much in the way of embedded HDBT in the Consumer channel.


Heat generation in a 16x16 Matrix powering 16 TV's would be a big worry for the Matrix manufacturer.


For now you will require a Matrix/Zone Receiver with local power (for the TV) architecture.


Joe


----------



## AV_Integrated

cdika17 said:


> If I'm not using HDBT, then i would need to run an HDMI cable(What AWG?), IR cable and another cat6?


I use the heaviest gauge cable I can use, which has been the Monoprice 22AWG HDMI cables, and I've had good luck with 1080p at 75' across the cables I've personally used.

I would pull at least one cat-5e and one cat-6 cable to each location that doesn't have conduit. I actually pull a lot more than that. Typically 3-4 pieces of cat-5e/cat-6 in my installations.


----------



## AV_Integrated

While Crestron, AMX, and Extron all provide almost all the features of 5-play, HDBT has been slow on the uptake that they need to be able to deliver an extremely inexpensive chipset that can be used by consumer electronics manufacturers. Using external PoE switches, most Crestron end-points can be powered, and fully run from their HDBT matricies. But, there are no TVs that can act as end points. As well, due to the power limitations of HDBT (from what I've read), you aren't getting more than about a 40" television (LED) at that end point, if you are lucky.

I'm very hopeful that this will all happen one day. Certainly the true 'one connector' concept is a heck of an idea.

At this point, I've done direct control and video delivery to a Panasonic projector with embedded HDBT. No power though.


----------



## Kressilac

So in a build out for my basement project, I have a 25', 30', 50' and 75' runs to 4 TVs in addition to a few 30' runs to TVs up in the rooms above. Currently, I've got Redmere Monoprice cables in the walls but I am concerned about 4K video. The Redmere cables are the 10.2 Gbs variety from Monoprice. I'm curious what people are doing with 4K video runs to a media closet. Does the HDBaseT product line solve the 4K problem? I'm also talking [email protected] with Dolby Atmos sound? Each TV location has a pair of Cat6 cables along side whatever HDMI cables have been installed.


How does HDBaseT help my situation? Or does it not help it?


----------



## Joe Fernand

_'I'm also talking [email protected] with Dolby Atmos sound?'_ - to each Zone, that's going to be a fully immersive whole house!!!

_'How does HDBaseT help my situation?'_ - it's the most stable way to deliver multi-zone HD Video (with audio) around your home the other 'stuff' you have to take a step back and asses what you are asking.


Are you really planning on '[email protected]' and Dolby Atmos in all Zones - if not then look at that 'Theatre' Zone in isolation with an Output from your 'whole house' Matrix delivering centralized ([email protected] and non-Atmos sources) to the Theatre Zone plus presumably 'TV' only Zones (most likely 1080p with 2.0 audio).


Joe


----------



## Kressilac

Joe Fernand said:


> _'I'm also talking [email protected] with Dolby Atmos sound?'_ - to each Zone, that's going to be a fully immersive whole house!!!
> 
> _'How does HDBaseT help my situation?'_ - it's the most stable way to deliver multi-zone HD Video (with audio) around your home the other 'stuff' you have to take a step back and asses what you are asking.
> 
> 
> Are you really planning on '[email protected]' and Dolby Atmos in all Zones - if not then look at that 'Theatre' Zone in isolation with an Output from your 'whole house' Matrix delivering centralized ([email protected] and non-Atmos sources) to the Theatre Zone plus presumably 'TV' only Zones (most likely 1080p with 2.0 audio).
> 
> 
> Joe



So it was late when I typed that. The plan in the basement is 4K TVs all around. 4 of them. One in the office, one in the bar area, one in the workout room and the projector in the Atmos theater. Only the projector will have the sound. What I want to make sure of is that I have the appropriate cable in the walls before I drywall everything and make things more difficult. To begin with, the projector might be the only 4K TV but if the past year is any indication, [email protected] is falling fast in price so it won't be long before I am looking at 4K TVs throughout the basement at least, if not to the bedroom and living room up stairs. Before I drywall, I have under floor access to replace those cables. That said, I've run Cat6 (2 ea) to every TV.


Am I good enough to just run Cat6 to the TVs in the basement and use HDBaseT to "terminate" the ends? Will the current modules handle 4K video @ 60fps? If I'm forced to an HDMI cable for the projector, where can I find a 25' cable. Monoprice doesn't have an 18Gbps cable bigger than 15'. Haven't purchased anything yet because I'm frozen by this whole transition. I can feel it now; seal up the walls and then 4K goes mainstream.... At least if I do it right, I'll get 3 years of state of the art out of my basement before 8K TV comes out versus being a generation behind from day one if I plan for 1080p.


Where HDBaseT seemingly fits, is to send a TV and 2/5.1 channel audio signal to the 75' and 45' runs (bedroom and workout room). I'm just not 100% sure so I've not plunked down the coin to make it happen.


----------



## Joe Fernand

UHD/4K – still lots to be ironed out with the possibility that more than a few folk will have TV’s with ‘embedded’ streamers so you don’t ever ‘send’ a 2160p signal to the TV via HDMI.

HDBT – once products start to appear with the New Colligo (HDBT 2.0) family of chips you will see more support for 2160p at frame rates other than 30fps. 

http://www.valens.com/products

CAT6 – many installers will be running x4 solid core CAT6to each Zone.

Multi-dimensional audio – you are likely going to have to dedicate a Player in the Cinema Zone to deliver this to a compatible AVR plus have a second Player for your ‘whole house’ needs outputting 1080p with 2.0 audio to be compatible with TV’s in all Zones.

Joe


----------



## DS-21

My installer put in a Metra* HDbaseT Lite setup for my TV. (Specifically, between my Anthem MRX300 AVR and a Sony LCD TV I bought ca. 2007). The cables are well well under 70m long. I'm getting occasional dropouts. What can I do to troubleshoot the connection? I wonder if there might be a dodgy crimp in the network cables, because there was no strain relief applied between the UTP Cat5e cable and the RJ45 connector.

Also, my wife and I are thinking about cutting the cord when our current promo with the monopoly ends. We could buy an external tuner, but my TV has a perfectly good one installed. So if this unit ends up being bad, is there another one I can suggest my installer procure that has the following features:
-POE (not necessary, but would be nice)
-audio from TV to AVR. Ideally with optical input, because my current TV predates ARC and my TV has an optical digital output.

Or would it be better to stick with a basic HDbaseT Lite for video, and use a separate set of optical to Cat5e baluns for audio if we cut the cord? There are two Cat5e lines run to the TV area.


*My packaging and the units are clearly branded Metra, but online it looks like they use the Ethereal brand name. this Ethereal unit has the same model name as my Metra-branded parts.


----------



## ktrdsl23

Just a head's up to people who might be considering this unit. About 2 years ago I bought this HDBaseT Extender from monoprice. It worked fine until about a month ago when it stopped passing the signal. Both the sender and the receiver power lights are on but the link is dead. I tried a few different cat5e cables and the link never works so something stopped working with it. It looks like others on Monoprice have seen similar results. I have no idea if the newer one they sell will show the same symptoms. While the monoprice HDBaseT sets are much cheaper than the competition that will be for naught if it turns out that these only have a year or two shelf life.


----------



## AV_Integrated

ktrdsl23 said:


> Just a head's up to people who might be considering this unit. About 2 years ago I bought this HDBaseT Extender from monoprice. It worked fine until about a month ago when it stopped passing the signal. Both the sender and the receiver power lights are on but the link is dead. I tried a few different cat5e cables and the link never works so something stopped working with it. It looks like others on Monoprice have seen similar results. I have no idea if the newer one they sell will show the same symptoms. While the monoprice HDBaseT sets are much cheaper than the competition that will be for naught if it turns out that these only have a year or two shelf life.


In my testing with these, it is almost always a power supply failure. There are times it still shows power, but a replacement power supply still fixes the issue.

I have several of these units, and for the price, they have held up well. But, it would be nice to see a far more robust power supply ship with them.

I think of the 20+ I've installed, I may have had to replace four or five power supplies.


----------



## ktrdsl23

AV_Integrated said:


> In my testing with these, it is almost always a power supply failure. There are times it still shows power, but a replacement power supply still fixes the issue.
> 
> I have several of these units, and for the price, they have held up well. But, it would be nice to see a far more robust power supply ship with them.
> 
> I think of the 20+ I've installed, I may have had to replace four or five power supplies.


Interesting. I figured it wasn't the power supply since both units had power. I just sent them back for an RMA so I can't test it. Do you have a link to a separate power supply that people can get without having to purchase a whole new unit?

Thanks.


----------



## AV_Integrated

ktrdsl23 said:


> Interesting. I figured it wasn't the power supply since both units had power. I just sent them back for an RMA so I can't test it. Do you have a link to a separate power supply that people can get without having to purchase a whole new unit?
> 
> Thanks.


I've always sent them back in myself. Just let MP deal with it and remind them that it is their product which is failing. I still use them, but I've got a stock now of some Crestron gear which is a good deal better overall.


----------



## bscheets

*Power Supply Failures as well with Lite devices*

I have a couple of monoprice Lite boxes (108160/108159), and also had failure of the individual power supplies. It took me quite awhile to diagnose, since this is the last thing I thought of checking. In at least the one case, the red LED still showed as "On", though it did appear to be dimmer than it's working twin. I bought a number of spares should more fail, but not from monoprice. These particular end devices need 5 volt, 2Amp (regulated) with a 2.1mmX5.5m plug. I found them on Amazon. Note that the sending unit has higher power requirements should that fail.
Otherwise, no problems for me with these units.



ktrdsl23 said:


> Interesting. I figured it wasn't the power supply since both units had power. I just sent them back for an RMA so I can't test it. Do you have a link to a separate power supply that people can get without having to purchase a whole new unit?
> 
> Thanks.





AV_Integrated said:


> In my testing with these, it is almost always a power supply failure. There are times it still shows power, but a replacement power supply still fixes the issue.
> 
> I have several of these units, and for the price, they have held up well. But, it would be nice to see a far more robust power supply ship with them.
> 
> I think of the 20+ I've installed, I may have had to replace four or five power supplies.


----------



## Karlostavitch

*Best HDBaseT, excluding cost.*

Hi All,

Colleagues have tested a DVI/HDMI over Ethernet type product (I don't know exact product at this time) but said there was noticeable latency and HDBaseT has basically been written it off.

Reading about HDBaseT, and knowing there have been other mistakes made in the past, I would like to revisit HDBaseT in the lab environment.

The particular production environment requires ultimate reliability with cost being only secondary.

What brand/model would AVS gurus recommend considering these factors?

Cheers,


Karl


----------



## Joe Fernand

_'Colleagues have tested a DVI/HDMI over Ethernet type product (I don't know exact product at this time) but said there was noticeable latency and HDBaseT has basically been written it off.'_ - it sounds like you were using HD over LAN rather than HDMI over HDBT, assuming it was a single wire solution.


HD over LAN utilises MJPEG compression which does cause latency - its not very obvious on the visual side but is for the audio, esp where you have a multiple Display install.


Have a look at our HDBT-lite solution - always happy to supply one for you to test, http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI_extender_HD70STPEX.html


Joe


----------



## AV_Integrated

Karlostavitch said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Colleagues have tested a DVI/HDMI over Ethernet type product (I don't know exact product at this time) but said there was noticeable latency and HDBaseT has basically been written it off.
> 
> Reading about HDBaseT, and knowing there have been other mistakes made in the past, I would like to revisit HDBaseT in the lab environment.
> 
> The particular production environment requires ultimate reliability with cost being only secondary.
> 
> What brand/model would AVS gurus recommend considering these factors?


Joe like his products (and I have no reason to doubt they are good!) - But HDBT uses Valens chips. They are not HDMI over Ethernet. That is a completely different product. HDBT is point to point connections using category cable.

I see some latency with HDBT, which I think would bug me if I was a gamer.

But, depending on distances, etc. HDBT is still the best solution. Perhaps 100ms of latency. As much as 200ms? That would be a good thing to test out.

I use Crestron HDBT equipment all the time. But, I have used a long line of others, and they have worked pretty much the same. Mainly because they are all using the same Valens HDBT chip sets.


----------



## Joe Fernand

Hi AV_Integrated - just for clarification 


Octava Inc. is an HDBT adopter - http://www.hdbaset.org/members_list


We manufacture HDBT and HD over LAN solutions to suit different applications.


Joe


----------



## aboveave

Only a indication that JustAddPower will not make a correct High-definition multimedia interface output, especially with good quality audio and then any video above 1080p/60 with 8 tad colour.


----------



## cHinds78

Does anyone know why our monoprice 1x4 hdbase t splitter won't recognize our PC? Here is our system:

Monoprice 1x4 hdmi switch with audio extraciton
Monoprice 1x4 hdbase t splitter
WIndows 7 pc not sure of the mobo model but it has duel hdmi outputs)
Auss 21.5 hdmi monitors (x2)
Samsung BD f5100 blu ray player

The switch and splitter will recognize the blu ray player in 10secons but will not pick up the pc via hdmi. We made sure to match resolution and refresh rate settings to the blu ray player and still nothing. The swithc will work our setup without the hdbaset splitter so we know it does work. 

Any thoughts or suggestions? I've read hdbaset prefers hdmi version 1.3, is this true? Not sure what our ables are, but i will check later today.


----------



## naptowner

*Control System?*

I apologize if my question is self evident but I have been researching home AV solutions (particularly HDbaseT) for the last few weeks for my new home construction and am still relatively new to this space.

What I haven't been able to figure it is if HDbaseT matrices (possibly dependent on brand) is able to be controlled directly via IR or if they all require some other 3rd party control system (i.e. Control4, Crestron,etc). 

So my question: Are there matrix available which can be controlled (input selection, etc) directly by IR remote located at each receiver? For example: Could I use a logitech remote at my living room tv to select between input sources on the centrally located matrix in the basement via the supplied IR cables used with the receivers and matrix?

Thanks!!!


----------



## Joe Fernand

cHinds78 - the problem is quite common once you connect a PC to a device other than a 'Monitor', the PC is expecting to be communicating with a Monitor and simply goes into a sleep mode or not recognise that anything is connected to its Output.

An EDID Manager such as Dr HDMI of HDMI Detective+ inserted between the PC and the Switch or Distribution Amp will likely resolve the problem.

naptowner - yes you are able to control the Matrix, your Sources plus an AVR using IR without the requirement for additional Control gear.

http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI_Matrix_HD4xSTPMX_over CAT6.html

Joe


----------



## JaremyP

Anyone know of an HDMI CATx extender capable of doing UHD/60Hz at 4:4:4 chroma with full 18+ Gbps bandwidth?


Most everyone I find tops out at 10+ Gbps, which means UHD?6Hz at 4:2:0.


I'm looking for one that supports full ARC as well. ARC seems to be a missing feature of most extenders.


----------



## shepP

Can anyone recommend the best "brand" to look at for HDbaseT? I know monoprice has some but I'm guessing better quality solutions exist from other manufacturers.


----------



## AV_Integrated

JaremyP said:


> Anyone know of an HDMI CATx extender capable of doing UHD/60Hz at 4:4:4 chroma with full 18+ Gbps bandwidth?
> 
> 
> Most everyone I find tops out at 10+ Gbps, which means UHD?6Hz at 4:2:0.
> 
> 
> I'm looking for one that supports full ARC as well. ARC seems to be a missing feature of most extenders.


HDBT does not support ARC on any of their products. So, if you see any extender which supports ARC, then it is not HDBT.

Likewise, Valens has HDBT chipsets which support HDMI 1.4 and UHD in 4:2:0, but not in 4:4:4 according to their website...

http://www.valens.com/products/vs2310

Hopefully in the next year or so, we will see products which can handle a bit more.


----------



## shepP

I'm looking for suggestions for equipment with two scenarios I'm working with.


1. At my house I need a matrix that will allow a minimum of 2 hdmi inputs - a satellite receiver and a media player (4 would be nice for future proofing). This will be located at a TV so I also need to send those 2 sources back to the TV. I then want to send the other two via cat6 to a 2nd TV location. In this scenario I also have a cat5e coming up from the basement theatre rack that would be awesome to tie in at some point for consoles in the rack however I also have an hdmi cable running the same path that I could also use.


2. Inlaws house. Cat6 to all TV locations (5 right now and maybe more later) which then terminate in an equipment closet in the basement. 2 Satellite receivers (1 for each floor of the house) to all locations eats up 2 inputs, maybe a bluray player or some other source down the line for a 3rd so a matrix will also be in order.


I know monoprice has great prices but I need 100% reliability without having to reset units every so often. I have also found in the past the hdmi switches I used degraded the picture quality (this might no longer be the case).


----------



## Alanlee

Joe Fernand said:


> Sno Crash – as Andy says either centralise your games console and control it remotely or have it ‘in zone’ and potentially send back its Optical Out over a single CAT cable using a lower cost Optical over CAT extender.
> 
> HD over LAN (no matter who’s badge is on the box) has to compress the video signal – it’s not a show killer for Commercial applications or smaller TV's but it looks ‘unnatural’ on a larger TV if you are used to viewing non-compressed HDMI.
> 
> We have recently introduced our own solution and its being going well in the commercial market - http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI_extender_LAN_HDDSX.html
> 
> Joe


 
Your post was a couple of years ago, but I assume the product is still on the market. I want to send a signal from my home theater to my kitchen. Both rooms are connected through a router and with Ethernet switches. Can I plug your transmitter into the switch in the theater room and the receiver into the switch in the kitchen and from there to a TV, thereby receiving the same signal in both room simultaneously? The distance is less than 100 feet. Will the sound sync, or will there be a delay?


----------



## Joe Fernand

HD over LAN is still best suited to Commercial applications - though I have seen it used in Residential, esp. where you have a connection to a 'smaller' (sub 50") TV.


HDBT is still preferred for Residential - though it does require a 'direct' connection between the Transmitter and Receiver and not routed though your Network.


Joe


----------



## Alanlee

Joe Fernand said:


> HD over LAN is still best suited to Commercial applications - though I have seen it used in Residential, esp. where you have a connection to a 'smaller' (sub 50") TV.
> 
> 
> HDBT is still preferred for Residential - though it does require a 'direct' connection between the Transmitter and Receiver and not routed though your Network.
> 
> 
> Joe


 
Thanks Joe - It is going to connect to a 48 inch TV and eventually to a back to back 38 inch TV. The line out would come from an AVR or a pre-pro. Now that I think about it, if I could put it on the network, I could send the signal all over the house with additional receivers to the bedroom and the patio because those TVS are also on the home network. Now what problems would I create for myself?


----------



## konieczn

Quick question, I'm in the process of building a new home and throughout the process I've been buying products needed here and there. 

I plan to have all of my set top boxes, receivers, etc. all inside centrally located closet. 

I already have (2) Binary HDBaseT's but came across another one at a good price. Is it overkill to add another, making the total of HDBaseT's in the home at (3).

Just wanted to check with everyone to see if I should spend my money elsewhere, thank you for the support.


----------



## Alex Powell

*Consoles and HDBase T 2.0*

Hi,

I have been reading the comments on this thread and only playback solutions are mentioned. Does HDBaseT work correctly with games consoles (specifically PS3/4 and Xbox One). I realise that Kinect is out, as is Eyetoys (but they're pretty useless anyway). However what about the standard controllers? I believe they are normally Bluetooth, but don't know if they fallback to USB if available on the current generation. Obviously a console without a controller is a bit useless. Are there any repeaters? Finally are there any Matrices that fully support HDBaseT 2.0 (needed for USB support I gather) on the market? Or are they all "coming soon"?

Many thanks for any advice,

Alex


----------



## Odeen

Hello!


Is there such a thing as an HDBaseT (input) to 4 HDBaseT (outputs) splitter?
There are plenty of HDMI to 4/8 HDBaseT splitters.
There is at least one HDBaseT to 8 HDMI out splitter (Leaf LTB8).


My situation is that my video source is in the living room, all my CAT5E cables home-run to a mini wiring closet in the garage, and I need to send that video source to the kitchen and bedrooms. I would like to avoid converting the HDBaseT in the wiring closet back to HDMI only to convert it again to 4 HDBaseT outputs.


All displays support 1080P and Dolby TrueHD/DTS Master Audio, so EDID management is not an issue. I also don't need RS232, IR or networking support, just the most efficient way to get audio and video from point A to point B and from point B to points C, D, E and F.


Is there some obscure piece of equipment from a manufacturer where you have to "know a guy" in the business to reach that does this, or do I HAVE to go HDMI->HDBaseT-HDMI-HDBaseT-HDMI? 


Thanks!


----------



## mobius

Just noticed that Atlona is selling this unit now: 

http://atlona.com/product/at-uhd-ex-70-2ps/

4K/UHD HDMI Over HDBaseT TX/RX Kit

Model Number: AT-UHD-EX-70-2PS

4K/UHD capability
HDCP 2.2 compliant
Long distance HDMI extension
Field updatable firmware
Multi-channel audio compliant
Front panel Power and Link status LEDs
Rear panel I/O connectors

Video: 4096×[email protected]/25/30/50*/60Hz*, 3840×[email protected]/25/30/50*/60Hz*, 2048x1080p, [email protected]/24/25/29.97/30/50/59.94/60Hz, [email protected]/59.94/60Hz, [email protected]/59.94/60Hz, 576p, 576i, 480p, 480i

 VESA: 2560×2048, 2560×1600, 2048×1536, 1920×1200, 1680×1050, 1600×1200, 1600×900, 1440×900, 1400×1050, 1366×768, 1360×768, 1280×1024, 1280×800 1280×768, 1152×768, 1024×768, 800×600, 640×480

Colorspace	: YCbCr, RGB
Chroma Subsampling: 4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:2:0
Color depth	: 8-bit, 10-bit, 12-bit

*Audio*
Formats PCM 2Ch, LPCM 5.1, LPCM 7.1, Dolby Digital, DTS 5.1, Dolby Digital+, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, Dolby Atmos
Sample Rate	32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, 192kHz
Bit Rate	up to 24-bit

*Distance (per port)*
CAT5e/6 @ 4K	up to 35 meters	up to 115 feet
* CAT6a/7 @ 4K	up to 40 meters	up to 130 feet*
CAT5e/6 @ 1080p	up to 60 meters	up to 197 feet
*CAT6a/7 @ 1080p	up to 70 meters	up to 230 feet*
HDMI IN/OUT @ 4K	up to 5 meters	up to 15 feet
HDMI IN/OUT @ 1080p	up to 10 meters	up to 30 feet

*Signal*
*Bandwidth	10.2 Gbps*
CEC	Pass through
HDCP	Supports up to 2.2

*Connector*
Firmware	Mini-B USB
HDBaseT	RJ45 (8P8C)
HDMI	Type A
Power	DC 5V locking connector

*Certification*
Power Supply	CE, FCC, RoHS, cULus, RCM, CCC
Product	CE, FCC
* * 4096×[email protected]/60Hz & 3840×[email protected]/60Hz supported @ chroma subsampling 4:2:0 8-bit only


I noticed one on Amazon for a decent price: http://www.amazon.com/Atlona-AT-UHD-EX-70-2PS-HDBaseT-Transmitter-Receiver/dp/B00US6DDEG


----------



## Joe Fernand

The Atlona Manual states - _'Chroma Subsampling 4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:2:0 (UHD only)_' - would be worth a call to confirm if you do require 2160p/60 with 4:4:4.

Joe


----------



## mobius

I've decided to wait. When I decide to upgrade from my current setup, I'll buy a 18 Gbps matrix switcher.


----------



## jrcrunch

where is the most affordable place to buy reliable hdbaset systems?


----------



## jrcrunch

do i really have to buy these cables?? or any cat6 will be fine?

http://www.hdbaset.org/cables


----------



## Joe Fernand

_'do i really have to buy these cables?? or any cat6 will be fine?'_ - given a choice I would go with a recommended cable! 


We use the Black-Box Giga True on all installs we undertake.


Where required we have to work with 'pre installed' cables and most of the time we can make it work (NOTE 'most').


Termination quality is hugely important with HDMI/HDBT!


Joe


----------



## Kressilac

I own three sets of the Atlona extenders. Aside from the previously discussed ARC support, they work great for the three Vizio 4K TVs that I have connected to them. The main 75" TV has a Windows 7 MCE attached to it and video looks great. Had to upgrade my video card (Nvidia GTX 960) and upgrade to PowerDVD 15 to get UHD playback but it works very well.


----------



## blazar

if you use an HDbaseT converter after a receiver/processor:

1. are there audio latency issues that can occur?
2. are there any handshake issues likely to occur?
3. if you buy a projector that supports HDbaseT input, would you no longer need the "receiving end" of an HDbaseT extender product such as those provided by Atlona mentioned earlier in the thread?
4. Can HDBaseT be run through an existing ethernet switch/network or is it its "own network" that is point-to-point only. In other words, is it ethernet protocol?

I am a total newb when it comes to HDbaseT. I happen to have an HDMI 1.4 wire going to my projector but swapping to a HDMI 2.0/ hdcp2.2 is going to a major task as my conduit is not going to easily allow me to pass any more wires. I do have cat5a running to the projector area from my equipment closet therefore this would be a much easier way to connect... I am just trying to figure out if there would be any major issues to consider and setup options.


----------



## Joe Fernand

1. Nothing discernible.

2. Yes, though it's pretty rare I find.


3. Yes - though not too many 'Consumer' Projects have embedded HDBT.


4. You can run network traffic on the same cable as your HD Video/Audio if you have a full 'five play' HDBT Transmitter/Receiver, most HDCP Extenders don't offer 'five play' and lose the ability to carry Network traffic.


HDMI cables - are not version compliant, they are either High Speed or Standard. The longest High Speed 'passive' cable is 8m.


2160p60 with HDR (as supported by HDMI 2.0a) - is what you need to cater for if you plan to add an Ultra HD BD Player, at present that is not fully supported by HDBT.


Joe


----------



## Category 5

I just bought a Monoprice 5 play HDBASET set and am having some audio sync issues at the receiving end. I am using an HDMI splitter to split the X1 cable box (1080p/60) and send to two Samsung UHD sets. One local to the box and the other in the bedroom. The house is wired with Cat 6, and I have cat-6 patch cables at both TX and RX ends as well as a small cat-6 patch at the patch panel in the closet (connecting the TV room to the bedroom.

I had a cheaper MJPEG style extender first whose quality was good but there was some odd motion stutter on the receiving end. I switched to HDBASET once I learned about it and got a signal lock pretty easily. Image is perfect, but there is a noticeable delay with the audio. Not sure what the cause is, but the delay wasn't there with the cheaper system, and it's not there on the local set so it isn't the fault of the cable box.

I love the concept of this, and image quality is there now (obviously), but the audio delay is annoying the crap out of me. Any ideas?


----------



## Category 5

I just bought a Monoprice 5 play HDBASET set and am having some audio sync issues at the receiving end. I am using an HDMI splitter to split the X1 cable box (1080p/60) and send to two Samsung UHD sets. One local to the box and the other in the bedroom. The house is wired with Cat 6, and I have cat-6 patch cables at both TX and RX ends as well as a small cat-6 patch at the patch panel in the closet (connecting the TV room to the bedroom.

I had a cheaper MJPEG style extender first whose quality was good but there was some odd motion stutter on the receiving end. I switched to HDBASET once I learned about it and got a signal lock pretty easily. Image is perfect, but there is a noticeable delay with the audio. Not sure what the cause is, but the delay wasn't there with the cheaper system, and it's not there on the local set so it isn't the fault of the cable box.

I love the concept of this, and image quality is there now (obviously), but the audio delay is annoying the crap out of me. Any ideas?


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Planing for the future, I'm remodeling my room this year and will likely end up with a HDBT set up. In order to futureproof as much as possible, would running CAT 7 mean that I would be able to upgrade to a 18GBps set up in the future? If so would a cable like this one be good enough (ready made, which solves the issue of having to crimp any connectors)?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/IBRA%C2%AE-RJ45-Ethernet-Network-Cable/dp/B00ST2WOTQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1454702487&sr=8-2&keywords=ethernet+cat+7+15m

Thanks.


----------



## Otto Pylot

That type of CAT-7 cable is what I call CAT-7 ethernet patch cable. I would suggest looking at solid core (non-CCS) CAT-7 cable. The individual solid copper wires are heavier gauge, individually insulated and encased in a jacket. Solid core CAT-6/7, installed in a conduit if you're running in-wall, is really the only way to "future proof" your cabling if there is such a thing. The downside is that you have to terminate the cable yourself with some sort of active termination like HDBT, which can be a bit pricey. 18Gbps is a bit dicey right now because an optimum, reliable length (like 25' is now for HDMI 1.4/2.0 @10.2Gbps is) has yet to be determined. There are lots of claims being made by HDMI cable mfrs but the results are very conflicting. Solid core would probably be your best bet but even then HDBT has some limitations ,which I think, are in the process of being resolved. Cable length is the biggest obstacle right now.

Gold plated connectors are just marketing fluff unless the connectors on the HDMI input side are gold plated as well. Otherwise you have gold contacting tin (probably). The advantages are negligible to what you see and hear, but you pay for it.

I like your sig line btw.


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## Kelvin1965S

Thanks, I was trying to avoid having to buy crimping tools and make the cable up myself (I've done it before, but it was a fiddle I seem to recall). I've ordered that cable anyway just to try out with my projector and a HDBT set I also got cheap (I expect I will have to replace the HDBT boxes in the future, but they will do for 4K/24p and of course 1080p for the time being).

Sounds like I might have to make up the final cable myself though, but I know where I can get suitable cable from.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Just an update to my posts, I tried out the HDBT Lite kit I got last week. The idea being that it will hold me over for a few years until I have a requirement for 18.2 Gbps transfer. At least the kit was relatively cheap compared to an optical HDMI cable that wouldn't be so easy to replace later on. 

I can only test by upscaling BluRay in my Lumagen Radiance 2041 so the maximum I could push through it was 3840 x 2160/24 or 25p but it worked with the 15 metre 'patch' cable without any drop outs or other issues all night. The final installation will likely need a shorter run of around 7-8 metres, but I'll look into getting the solid core cable mentioned above and make up my own cable.

This was the second success with testing for my new room set up as I connected up an RF/IR Harmony remote which operates the equipment in my rack outside the room. It worked perfectly all night too, so that's two issues that I have resolved now; just have to rebuild the room once the builder have been...


----------



## taskman

Kelvin1965S said:


> Just an update to my posts, I tried out the HDBT Lite kit I got last week. The idea being that it will hold me over for a few years until I have a requirement for 18.2 Gbps transfer. At least the kit was relatively cheap compared to an optical HDMI cable that wouldn't be so easy to replace later on.
> 
> I can only test by upscaling BluRay in my Lumagen Radiance 2041 so the maximum I could push through it was 3840 x 2160/24 or 25p but it worked with the 15 metre 'patch' cable without any drop outs or other issues all night. The final installation will likely need a shorter run of around 7-8 metres, but I'll look into getting the solid core cable mentioned above and make up my own cable.
> 
> This was the second success with testing for my new room set up as I connected up an RF/IR Harmony remote which operates the equipment in my rack outside the room. It worked perfectly all night too, so that's two issues that I have resolved now; just have to rebuild the room once the builder have been...


That is really good testing feedback on using 4K for HDBaseT, I am getting close to testing it out on my existing deployment with Cat 5E. Since you are rebuilding the room, I highly recommend running a standard HDMI 2.0 cable if it isn't too far (50ft or higher with Blue Rigger Cable). I really enjoy my HDBaseT but I should have ignored the contractors advice and gotten the HDMI run. It just makes things simpler when you need to go around the HDBaseT which can be more often then you think depending on how my outputs you have on your HDBaseT switch or compatibility issues.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Not sure I can get Blue Rigger cable in the UK, though most HDMI options I could find that would pass 4K would cost considerably more than the HDBT lite set up cost (around £130 total including the 15 metre CAT 7 cable). I'm only using a single output on the HDBT as it feeds my projector, the other end is just on the output of my (current) Lumagen video processor. In future it may be connected to a UHD player as the Lumagen can't handle 4K inputs.


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## JustMike

If you're rebuilding the room, the single best thing I think you could do is to install a low-voltage conduit from your equipment location to your display location. HDMI at 18.2 Gbps is really demanding, and right now there's very sparse support for it among things like HDBaseT, fiber optic cables, etc. The conduit will give you the flexibility to change cables in the future. Who knows? We might need 40 Gbps at some point...

I just pulled a fiber optic cable to my projector through one of the conduits we installed when my room was built. Piece of cake.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Yes, this is part of the plan too; my AV rack is on the other side of a breeze block and plasterboard (drywall) wall. I plan to run a conduit up the 8' wall behind the plasterboard then round the room inside a sofit to the projector. 

Who knows what data rates we'll need by the time the room needs redecorating again...last time I redecorated I hadn't even got a 1080p source to feed my 1080p projector.


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## JustMike

Excellent. Just remember when you run it: gentle curves! We ran flexible conduit that has an internal diameter of 1", and I think we probably would have run a little bigger if we could have.


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## cdika17

Any options for a 4x4 or 8x8 hdbaset matrix extender package that isn't a billion dollars and affordable for us Canucks up north of the border, silly Canadian economy.


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## Joe Fernand

4x4 pricing is very different to 8x8 pricing and no matter where you live everyone complains that HDBT is too expensive!

Joe


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## john stephens

*How to fix a Monoprice 4 by 4 HDBaseT Matrix*

The symptoms were that one of the channels no longer displayed the digital signal. St first I thought that the matrix itself had failed but to my glee, the problem was on the receiver end. And at that, it was merely that the external 5V/2 Amp power supply had failed. Out of all the potentially dreadful causes, this was by far the simplest and cheapest to fix. Indeed, Amazon sells an equivalent 5V supply for just $8.99. I bought one of these, whereupon the RX began working again. Since then, another channel failed, this time I just ordered another supply and the problem was fixed. In anticipation that this supply is a dominant cause of failures, I went ahead about two additional supplies and swapped them for the originals units. To sum up, for less than $40, I removed the Achilles heel of this system.
This all makes sense, since the innards of these units are based on Valens chips and layouts etc., similar to that of much m ore expensive brands. The robustness of the Valens chip/architecture is well known. I think these units inherit that as well.
So if you have a similar problem in the future, don't bother to call Support, just swap out that DC supply. Enjoy!


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## APRisti

Which of these wires do you guys suggest I install for the HDBASET run



Blue
http://pr.blackbox.com/Store/Detail...-Cable-Plenum-Blue-50-ft-15-2-m/EYN911MS-0050

Purple
http://pr.blackbox.com/Store/Detail...gless-Boots-Purple-50-ft-15-2-m/EVNSL648-0050


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## Joe Fernand

Either or will likely do - we use the GigaTrue on all of the installs where we get to choose the cables.

Joe


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## Welshdog

*Extender with HDMI splitter on transmitter?*

I'm looking for an HDMI extender that has a pass-through or splitter on the transmitter. The situation here is that I have a Tivo that feeds into a Denon receiver. I want to send that Tivo HDMI output to a TV in the kitchen and to the Denon receiver simultaneously. I can probably manage to get a CAT5 to the kitchen, but not an HDMI cable.

I'm pretty sure there was a device that had this feature a couple of years ago, but I can't seem to find any now. Has anyone ever seen an extender that has this feature?

Thanks!


----------



## Joe Fernand

We would normally supply/install a 1x2 Splitter plus an HDBT Extender.

Keep in mind if the kitchen TV only supports Stereo audio you will need to set the Source to HD Video + Stereo audio via HDMI plus 5.1 via Optical and connect an Optical between the Source and the AVR and configure the AVR to use the Optical audio.

Use Solid core, non-CCA, UTP CAT6 for the extender.

Joe


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Welshdog

Joe Fernand said:


> We would normally supply/install a 1x2 Splitter plus an HDBT Extender.
> 
> Keep in mind if the kitchen TV only supports Stereo audio you will need to set the Source to HD Video + Stereo audio via HDMI plus 5.1 via Optical and connect an Optical between the Source and the AVR and configure the AVR to use the Optical audio.
> 
> Use Solid core, non-CCA, UTP CAT6 for the extender.
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thank you.

I had thought of doing that, but was concerned it might create issues. Is it okay to use a couple of really short HDMI cables in patching this up?


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## Joe Fernand

Keep in mind HDMI plugs are relatively long so either use very flexible short cables or a slightly longer than you had planned cable.

We use plenty of 0.5m and 1.0m HDMI cables.

Joe


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## spencers

Trying to find some information on HDBaseT for a particular use case and I cannot find any information anywhere.

I have a gaming PC in a networking closet and a desk/monitor in the office ~25 ft away. I am looking for a HDBaseT adapter that will transmit 2560x1440 at 60hz to my monitor. I can't find any adapters that specifically mention this resolution. It's either 1080p or 4k with nothing in-between. Am I out of luck?


----------



## wingm8

Monoprice has a new line of HDBaseT devices called Blackbird: (Monoprice product Link)

Here's the description for PID 15777:


> The Monoprice Blackbird™ 4K HDBaseT™ HDMI® Extender Kit with PoC is a tool which can extend your HDMI video and audio signal up to 330 feet to an HDMI equipped projector or display. Our Blackbird 4K Extender with PoC is designed to convert an HDMI signal to standard HDBaseT signal, which then can be transmitted by a single Ethernet cable. The Blackbird 4K HDMI Extender with PoC supports all the latest compliance, including HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 and HDBaseT 2.0.
> 
> Features:
> 
> One pair as a full functional module, no need for setting
> Use single UTP/STP LAN cable (CAT-5e/6) to substitute HDMI cable to achieve long distance transmission
> UTP/STP cable termination follows the standard of IEEE TIA-568B
> Transmission distance reaches up to 100 meters for 1080p and up to 70 meters for 4K video
> POC (RX powered by TX)
> HDCP 2.2/1.4 compliant
> Full HD support: [email protected]@48bits/pixel, 3D, and 4K
> LED indicators show the power status
> Built-in ESD protection
> Includes mounting ears
> Transfers bidirectional infrared control signals together with the HDMI signal
> Phoenix RS232 port for firmware update or RS232 control signals


I asked customer service for more information:


> [11:31 AM] Robert H.:	For the new HdbaseT units, it would support full 4k meaning *4k at 60Hz at 4:4:4*
> [11:32 AM] Robert H.:	*This would support the full 18 Gbps.*


----------



## Philip Klein

*Blackbird™ 4k HDBaseT vs. HDBaseT 2.0*

Seems to be toward 2.0 but not all the features. Any affordable HDBaseT 2.0 switchers out there?

- Phil


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## carealtor

*All sources in the same place?*

It looks to me, in order for this to work, all of the source components have to be in the same place, such as the equipment closet. I can put all the Uverse STBs in the equipment closet along with a matrix switcher, but the Blu Ray player has to stay in the theater. How do I get the Blu Ray player HDMI to the equipment closet?


----------



## Postmoderndesign

IMHO disc players need to be local at the present time if just for the convenience of changing discs. Ripping UHD discs to network storage, if and when that becomes possible, is a useful method of having movies available throughout the house.

The HD over LAN rather then HDBaseT could make sources available to all displays. I don't know if that is a practical solution and you still would have the disc changing issue as well as compression-decompression artifacts.


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## Joe Fernand

There are one or two HDBT Matrix with HDBT Inputs to allow you to put a Transmitter out in a Zone with a Source.

As Postmoderndesign says HD over LAN is likely a more realistic option - like anything HDMI look for the Features you require and the systems with the best/least video processing.

Joe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## carealtor

Joe Fernand said:


> There are one or two HDBT Matrix with HDBT Inputs to allow you to put a Transmitter out in a Zone with a Source.


A link would be much appreciated.


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## Joe Fernand

You are looking at the cardframe type solutions from the likes of Crestron and Extron.

Joe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hellerbrewing

JaremyP said:


> Anyone know of an HDMI CATx extender capable of doing UHD/60Hz at 4:4:4 chroma with full 18+ Gbps bandwidth?
> 
> 
> Most everyone I find tops out at 10+ Gbps, which means UHD?6Hz at 4:2:0.
> 
> 
> I'm looking for one that supports full ARC as well. ARC seems to be a missing feature of most extenders.





Philip Klein said:


> Seems to be toward 2.0 but not all the features. Any affordable HDBaseT 2.0 switchers out there?


Valens Responds: What’s the Road Map for 4K @60 MHz HDBaseT with 4:4:4?

What is the status of 4:4:4 at 60? Is the new standard that Valens was referring to in the above article HDBaseT 2.0? ...or have 2.0 devices been out for a while? It seems that 2.0 have been discussed on this thread for a few years now.

As an aside, i'm sure some updated information in the first post would be very helpful to those coming here looking for information.


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## hellerbrewing

Has anyone used these? 

AV Access HDMI Extender ( HDBaseT ),Uncompressed Signal 4K60Hz over Cat5e /6a, 70m(230ft)1080P, 40m(130ft) 4K, PoE, Bi-directional IR+RS232,HDR,HDCP2.2

Does the Valens "Lite" chip have any bandwidth limitations compared to the original version? Even if my distance is less than 70M, would it be advisable to spend the extra money and get the original?

AV Access HDMI/HDBaseT Extender,Uncompressed Signal 4K60Hz over Cat5e /6a, 100m(330ft)1080P, 70m(230ft) 4K, Supports Ethernet + PoE + RS232 + IR control + HDCP 2.2, Mounting Ear


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## hellerbrewing

hellerbrewing said:


> What is the status of 4:4:4 at 60? Is the new standard that Valens was referring to in the above article HDBaseT 2.0? ...or have 2.0 devices been out for a while? It seems that 2.0 have been discussed on this thread for a few years now.


So I found this device that claims to be HDBaseT 2.0 compliant:

GTB-UHD-HBT2

This is new, so I am assuming that this is the standard that was being referred to in the Valens article, but it appears that the only gain to be had from 2.0 is the increase in distance? They don't mention anything about throughput and they only claim to be able to get 4:4:4 at 30Hz.

Edit - Apparently 2.0 has been out since 2013, so maybe 3.0 is on the horizon?



> What are the differences between HDBaseT Spec 1.0 and Spec 2.0?
> The first HDBaseT standard specification was released in 2010. In mid-2013, the HDBaseT Alliance released Spec 2.0, which brought many new features to the original standard. Primarily, with Spec 2.0, HDBaseT is now a multipoint-to-multipoint technology, enabling networking of the whole home and/or business. Spec 2.0 brings a plug-and-play solution for full connectivity.
> 
> From an architecture standpoint, Spec 1.0 addressed the physical and data link layers only of the generic communications OSI 7-layer model. HDBaseT 2.0 goes one step further and work on all the layers of the model.
> 
> In terms of features, Spec 2.0 brings:
> 
> Native support for a series of interfaces, including USB 2.0, which translates into a smaller and simpler to implement switch;
> 
> Multistreaming & daisy-chaining
> 
> Enhanced performance for 4K delivery over longer distances
> 
> Introduction of HDBaseT over fiber


refernce


----------



## Joe Fernand

Valens lists its 'available' products on its website - http://www.valens.com/products

Joe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hellerbrewing

Since it seems that there are a number of HDBaseT extenders out there that are capable of 4K @60Hz 4:4:4 chroma, I thought I would start compiling a list of them in this post. I will keep editing it as I come across them.

*Atlona*

HDR-EX-70-2PS -- B&H Photo($400)

Claims it can handle Dolby Vision, but is limited to 30Hz.
Free software utility available for testing integrity of the HDBaseT cable link between the transmitter and the receiver.

*AVProconnect*

AC-EX40-444-KIT -- AVProstore ($800)

*Kanex Pro*

EXT-70SL18G -- Markertek ($500)
EXT-100SL18G -- Markertek ($800)

*Purelink*

HCE III TX/RX -- Markertek ($600)
PoE- IR - RS232 
HTE III TX/RX -- Markertek ($900)
PoE- IR - RS232 - ethernet

*Transformative Engineering*

HLE 4K
HD 4K

*Generic*

Generic 1 -- Ebay ($250)
Generic 2 -- Ebay ($300)

If you have a review of any of these, post it and I will add a link to this post.


----------



## hellerbrewing

Does anyone know anything about these generic ones on ebay? They appear to be identical to the Purelink models listed above them. A friend of mine mentioned that Chinese manufacturers often make extra models of items they are contracted to make, to sell themselves.


----------



## Globespy

*Can I keep my existing HDMI cable?*

I completed a new Home theater build, spending a lot extra on HDMI cables (35ft runs) that assured 4K connection.
The thing is, I'm only using a 1080p projector for the time being - the cables were for future proofing when I eventually get a native 4K Projector.

I'm having the common intermittent HDMI handshake issues with my AV receiver. It's an older unit but does everything I need currently and more, so no need to buy a new one.
This is especially true when Pioneer tech support advised that even a brand new receiver is likely to have the same issues and the best solution is still HDBaseT.
Something to do with current degradation over longer HDMI runs that needs amplified?
They suggested I invest in HDBaseT over a new AV receiver.

Here's what I don't understand and hoping someone can help.

I have no way to run a Cat6 ethernet cable to the location where the projector is mounted, and I'm not about to start tearing out walls and ceilings.
Will a HDBaseT extender work if both the HDBaseT transmitter and receiver are essentially next to each other (in my theater equipment room, the existing HDMI cable coming from the projector plugged into the receiver unit which is connected by a 3ft quality Cat6 cable to the transmitter, which is then connected to my AV receiver by HDMI?
So essentially I will still use the 35ft HDMI cable which goes from my AV room to the projector, but via this HDBaseT unit - the exception now that the signal is 'amplified'?

Appreciate any and all help.


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## Joe Fernand

HDBaseT (HDBT) - is an 'over CAT' Extender technology used to transmit various HDMI formats (along with in some systems power, comms, IR and data) out to 100m over single CAT6 cable. I fail to see where it fits with your system other than as a replacement for the installed HDMI cables.

Step 1 - is identify your problem. Is it the AVR or is it your installed HDMI cables which are the problem?

Try connecting your Source device directly to the Sink (Display) device via the installed HDMI cable - start out at 720p/1080i and then move on to 1080p. If that works reliably then try inserting the AVR and see if the problem is triggered. Your older AVR may be a simple 'Pass Thru' device with no active HDMI circuitry to ensure the signal is leaving the AVR at the required 5v level - if the AVR is a simple 'Pass Thru' switch you have to factor in the combined cable length of Source > AVR + AVR > Sink and allow for some signal drop within the AVR.

Installed HDMI cable - at 35' (10.6m) you are beyond where I would expect a Standard copper HDMI cable to work with 4K UHD, though they ought to be fine with 1080p.

Joe


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## master02

*Valens new chip*

I recently bought this one: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=21792 but now see that Valens recently released a new chip (https://www.valens.com/press-releas...psets-colligo-family-plug-play-product-design). How do I know what chip is in the one I bought if they say they are both compatible with HDR, 4:4:4 etc. Should I return that one and wait for the new ones to be released? Anyone know which will use the new chips?


----------



## Joe Fernand

You would have to confirm with Monoprice which Chip set they are using and/or the system/spec they are supporting - anything 'over CAT' offering full bandwidth support for 4K UHD is having to use some form of compression.

Joe


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## master02

Joe Fernand said:


> You would have to confirm with Monoprice which Chip set they are using and/or the system/spec they are supporting - anything 'over CAT' offering full bandwidth support for 4K UHD is having to use some form of compression.
> 
> Joe


Is it true that these compressions are visually lossless?


----------



## Joe Fernand

_'Is it true that these compressions are visually lossless?' _- depends on who you ask 

Different manufacturers are going with alternative 'compression' solutions!

I suspect for a large or 'Primary' Display you would want to deliver an uncompressed signal - for secondary Zones with smaller Displays and less 'critical' viewing/viewers 'visually lossless' is likely more than adequate.

Joe


----------



## master02

Joe Fernand said:


> _'Is it true that these compressions are visually lossless?' _- depends on who you ask
> 
> Different manufacturers are going with alternative 'compression' solutions!
> 
> I suspect for a large or 'Primary' Display you would want to deliver an uncompressed signal - for secondary Zones with smaller Displays and less 'critical' viewing/viewers 'visually lossless' is likely more than adequate.
> 
> Joe


So then for a 120" 4k HDR projector is HDBaseT a bad solution regardless even with the new tech that is being released?


----------



## Joe Fernand

Given the choice, I would prefer to install a Hybrid Fibre cable which can carry the full bandwidth signal without any form of compression.

Whichever way you go pre-test the cable/solution and always ensure you have a plan for replacing any failed, damaged or obsolete cable.

Joe


----------



## travelrider73

*Best 1x4 HD-BASE-T Solution for 2018*

Hi all,

I need a 1x4 HD-BASE-T solution in my home, and wanted to ask what the best current solution might be for my situation.

Questions:

1) My primary display is capable of 4k but (for now) all of the secondary displays are still 1080p. I'm not planning to upgrade the secondary displays anytime soon. Should I spend more now and get a 1x4 that is 4k capable, or is there enough cost difference that I should just get a 1080p version and budget the 4k for the future?

2) My biggest secondary display is 65" 1080p. Am I going to notice the compression/decompression? (Is 65" too big for HD-BASE-T to be a viable solution).

3) What happens if I push a 4k signal and the receiving display can only handle 1080p? I suspect I get no picture. So, do I have to force the signal on the 1x4 to match the lowest resolution display? For example, what position am I in if I buy a new 65" 4k secondary but the other two secondary displays remain at 1080p? Is there any way I can get 4k to the one secondary and still get pictures on the two older 1080p secondaries? This issue might be handled by the Yamaha A/V receivers, but I'll have to read more about their up/down sampling capabilities. So, 4k into Yamaha from HD-Base-T but a 1080p display out from Yamaha? 

4) I'm looking at the Monoprice Blackbird. Is this still the best home solution for 1x4 or would you recommend something else? I'm really (surprisingly) not finding much 1x4 out there to choose from. Maybe I just don't know the brand names and Google isn't helping me much.

Budget is "as cheap as possible, but I don't want to save money that I should have spent". I'll generally buy a better product if that better product is going to cause me less grief and give me a better experience.

Thanks for all your help!


----------



## Joe Fernand

HDBT (any generation) will carry 1080p without compression - it is the 2nd Gen units which require compression for the higher bandwidth UHD formats.

If you 'push' 4K to a non-compatible Display you will receive an 'unsupported format' message on the Display - you can only 'push' content the Display is compatible with.

You will need to outline your complete system (list out Sources, AVR, Soundbar etc) before anyone can give you a decent steer - mixing 4K and HD Sources across 4K and HD capable Displays is not simple/low cost.

Joe


----------



## travelrider73

Joe Fernand said:


> HDBT (any generation) will carry 1080p without compression - it is the 2nd Gen units which require compression for the higher bandwidth UHD formats.
> 
> If you 'push' 4K to a non-compatible Display you will receive an 'unsupported format' message on the Display - you can only 'push' content the Display is compatible with.
> 
> You will need to outline your complete system (list out Sources, AVR, Soundbar etc) before anyone can give you a decent steer - mixing 4K and HD Sources across 4K and HD capable Displays is not simple/low cost.
> 
> Joe


Thanks for the reply. Sorry I disappeared for a couple of weeks. We were busy moving! My only 4k compatible component right now is the living room TV. Everything else is standard 1080p including the living room receiver that is connected to that TV. Based on your comment about mixing 4K and HD being expensive, it seems that maybe the best answer for me right now is a lower cost 1x4 HDBT unit. Then I can upgrade later if I spend the money to upgrade the rest of the system. Let me know if you disagree with that approach for some reason I may not be considering. 

Thanks!


----------



## sofakng

travelrider73 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Sorry I disappeared for a couple of weeks. We were busy moving! My only 4k compatible component right now is the living room TV. Everything else is standard 1080p including the living room receiver that is connected to that TV. Based on your comment about mixing 4K and HD being expensive, it seems that maybe the best answer for me right now is a lower cost 1x4 HDBT unit. Then I can upgrade later if I spend the money to upgrade the rest of the system. Let me know if you disagree with that approach for some reason I may not be considering.
> 
> Thanks!


Hmmm, I almost ordered an HDbaseT but I didn't realize that they have compression for 4k60 4:4:4.

Is this still true?

There are several products that are advertising "uncompressed" 4k60 (4:4:4) with HDbaseT. Are they wrong/lying?

If so, is the RUIPRO 50ft cable the best fiber cable for that distance?

EDIT: For example, the manufacturer says that the AV Access 4KEX70-H2 has absolutely NO compression?


----------



## Joe Fernand

HDBT - you do have to be very careful with headline claims, dig a little and you'll find 10-Bit, HDR and DV are all potential limitations and little info on how manufacturers are achieving a non-compressed signal.

RuiPro Hybrid Fibre HDMI - we have supplied a lot of the RuiPro cables with very few issues.

Joe


----------



## lauraparis

Hello,

I have a HUGE problem with HDbaseT.

I want to send my videos to 4 TVs. For the sound system, all is ok, I extract the sound from the PC visa a USB port and a Focusrite device (--> amplis --> passive speakers), but for image, big problems...

My configuration is:

PC Graphic Card Nvidia Geforce GT1030
-->(HDMI)--> Blustream HSP14CS (transmitter)
-->(cat6)--> Blustream HEX70B-RX (receiver)
-->(HDMI)--> 4K TV LG 75SM9000

I have 4 TVs, and the 4 cat6 cable lengths are: 24 meters / 32 meters / 38 meters / 43 meters

With the 43 meters cable, no power light on the HDbaseT receiver. So the TV displays "no signal" of course.

I have simple UTP cat6 cables, so I bought S/FTP cat6 cables --> same problem.
I changed ALL the HDMI cables with costly shielded HDMI --> same problem.
I changed ALL the RJ45, trying costly shielded ones --> same problem.
I tried lower PC video resolutions --> same problem.
I tuned the HDbaseT transmistter EDID to 3 ON/ 2 OFF/ 2 OFF/ 1 ON (4K30Hz 4:4:4/2.0ch) --> same problem.
I tuned the HDbaseT transmistter EDID to 3 OFF/ 2 ON/ 2 ON/ 1 OFF (4K60Hz 4:2:0/2.0ch) --> same problem.
I tuned the HDbaseT transmistter EDID to 3 OFF/ 2 OFF/ 2 OFF/ 1 OFF (1080p/2.0ch) --> same problem.

Of course, I used a test device to check the cat6 cable: the cable is ok.

Normally, all my installation would support 60Hz 4:4:4 and 4K. I don't even tried 4K, I only need 1080p. But even with 1080p, problem.

The Blustream normally would be ok with the lenght of my cables. But even when I connect only 1 cable, the 43 meters cable, that long cable doesn't work.

Where is the problem? The graphic card? I have to add a DC12V power device to the 43 meters away receiver (normally the PoC is ok with my lenghts?

Weeks and weeks trying to find a solution... :/

Thanks a lot,

Laura


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## Rebound

lauraparis said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a HUGE problem with HDbaseT.
> 
> I want to send my videos to 4 TVs. For the sound system, all is ok, I extract the sound from the PC visa a USB port and a Focusrite device (--> amplis --> passive speakers), but for image, big problems...
> 
> My configuration is:
> 
> PC Graphic Card Nvidia Geforce GT1030
> -->(HDMI)--> Blustream HSP14CS (transmitter)
> -->(cat6)--> Blustream HEX70B-RX (receiver)
> -->(HDMI)--> 4K TV LG 75SM9000
> 
> I have 4 TVs, and the 4 cat6 cable lengths are: 24 meters / 32 meters / 38 meters / 43 meters
> 
> With the 43 meters cable, no power light on the HDbaseT receiver. So the TV displays "no signal" of course.
> 
> I have simple UTP cat6 cables, so I bought S/FTP cat6 cables --> same problem.
> I changed ALL the HDMI cables with costly shielded HDMI --> same problem.
> I changed ALL the RJ45, trying costly shielded ones --> same problem.
> I tried lower PC video resolutions --> same problem.
> I tuned the HDbaseT transmistter EDID to 3 ON/ 2 OFF/ 2 OFF/ 1 ON (4K30Hz 4:4:4/2.0ch) --> same problem.
> I tuned the HDbaseT transmistter EDID to 3 OFF/ 2 ON/ 2 ON/ 1 OFF (4K60Hz 4:2:0/2.0ch) --> same problem.
> I tuned the HDbaseT transmistter EDID to 3 OFF/ 2 OFF/ 2 OFF/ 1 OFF (1080p/2.0ch) --> same problem.
> 
> Of course, I used a test device to check the cat6 cable: the cable is ok.
> 
> Normally, all my installation would support 60Hz 4:4:4 and 4K. I don't even tried 4K, I only need 1080p. But even with 1080p, problem.
> 
> The Blustream normally would be ok with the lenght of my cables. But even when I connect only 1 cable, the 43 meters cable, that long cable doesn't work.
> 
> Where is the problem? The graphic card? I have to add a DC12V power device to the 43 meters away receiver (normally the PoC is ok with my lenghts?
> 
> Weeks and weeks trying to find a solution... :/
> 
> Thanks a lot,
> 
> Laura
> 
> View attachment 3267833


Maybe the HDBaseT device is simply broken?


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## Joe Fernand

Bluestream specs says 40m with a 4K signal and that would usually assume a decent quality unbroken (no wall plates) run of solid core, non-CCS/CCA CAT6 cable.

Have you confirmed Source > TX > RX > Display works with a shorter run of CAT6?

Joe


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## lauraparis

Joe Fernand said:


> Bluestream specs says 40m with a 4K signal and that would usually assume a decent quality unbroken (no wall plates) run of solid core, non-CCS/CCA CAT6 cable.
> 
> Have you confirmed Source > TX > RX > Display works with a shorter run of CAT6?
> 
> Joe


Thanks Joe. With the 3 shorter cables, yes, all is ok. The problem is only with long cables...


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## Joe Fernand

Did you or others run the long CAT cables? I’d be grabbing a spare roll of a decent quality UTP CAT6 and making up some test lengths to see when the issue starts or prove the issue with your installed cables!

Have you considered HD or UHD over LAN for this type of install?

Joe


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## lauraparis

Joe Fernand said:


> Did you or others run the long CAT cables? I’d be grabbing a spare roll of a decent quality UTP CAT6 and making up some test lengths to see when the issue starts or prove the issue with your installed cables!
> 
> Have you considered HD or UHD over LAN for this type of install?
> 
> Joe


Yes, I tried several long cables (more than 40 meters), none of them work. Maybe we lose voltage because of the cable quality and I have to add a power supply to the receiver?

I also maybe have to change the cables? It seems that there is a fire risk with CCA cables (my place is public, so all must be ok for security)? My current simple UTP cables are all in PVC trunkings.

So, for new cables, what do I need to ensure PoE?

Copper mandatory?
F/UTP and no UTP?
Cat7 possible? (on amazon, it seems that there are more products available on Cat7 than on Cat6)?
23AWG?

Is this cable nice? https://www.amazon.fr/HB-DIGITAL-halogène-Conforme-données-Ethernet/dp/B082Y7C6BZ


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## Joe Fernand

Over and above any safety risk CCA should be a No/No in any installation - it is crap.

HDBT has built in limitations with the various Chip options a manufacturer can utilise in a design - where you see 40m as the Max length for 4K I would always stay well within that limit.

We always supply/install either BlackBox GigaTrue or Samson HDBT Certified UTP - https://tmfsolutions.co.uk/product/samson-cat6/

Joe


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## Otto Pylot

lauraparis said:


> Yes, I tried several long cables (more than 40 meters), none of them work. Maybe we lose voltage because of the cable quality and I have to add a power supply to the receiver?
> 
> I also maybe have to change the cables? It seems that there is a fire risk with CCA cables (my place is public, so all must be ok for security)? My current simple UTP cables are all in PVC trunkings.
> 
> So, for new cables, what do I need to ensure PoE?
> 
> Copper mandatory?
> F/UTP and no UTP?
> Cat7 possible? (on amazon, it seems that there are more products available on Cat7 than on Cat6)?
> 23AWG?
> 
> Is this cable nice? https://www.amazon.fr/HB-DIGITAL-halogène-Conforme-données-Ethernet/dp/B082Y7C6BZ


As far as solid core, UTP, Cat-7 goes they are not, at least the last time I checked, an IEEE recognized standard nor are they TIA/EIA approved. They also use different connector ends, GG-45, not the standard RJ-45 (8P8C) connector ends. Solid copper core, UTP, CAT-6 (non-CCA/CCS and not ethernet patch) cable should work just fine. Fire rating (CL2/3) is up to you but that does limit your cable choices somewhat. 40m is a long cable run so yeah, there will be a voltage drop but depending on what you want to push, that may be fine.


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