# Control4 Is the WORST! Stay Away!



## Matt Stultz

I have been a hostage of Control4 for the past 7 years. This is a dealer-focused system, meaning you will have to pay for everything little quirk that occurs because you have to be Einstein in order to do anything yourself. My nightmare included a company in the Phoenix Area called Independent Electric who was a Control 4 dealer. They managed to convince me to spend over $10k on all the equipment and stuff so I could watch TV and listen to music anywhere in my house. After their horrendous installation in my equipment closet (it literally had cords bunched up with equipment on top of the cords) i continued to spend hundreds if not thousands more for every little item that went wrong. The best part is that they abandoned me and I had to find a new dealer and that guy just loved to charge $150/hr for learning about my equipment. Trust me...Control4 is the absolute worst system you can purchase. Right now, I cannot operate any of my TV's because for some reason, Control 4 does not have an internet connection. I will be ripping every item from the POS company out next week and using my AppleTV instead.


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## Mntneer

Matt Stultz said:


> I have been a hostage of Control4 for the past 7 years. This is a dealer-focused system, meaning you will have to pay for everything little quirk that occurs because you have to be Einstein in order to do anything yourself. My nightmare included a company in the Phoenix Area called Independent Electric who was a Control 4 dealer. They managed to convince me to spend over $10k on all the equipment and stuff so I could watch TV and listen to music anywhere in my house. After their horrendous installation in my equipment closet (it literally had cords bunched up with equipment on top of the cords) i continued to spend hundreds if not thousands more for every little item that went wrong. The best part is that they abandoned me and I had to find a new dealer and that guy just loved to charge $150/hr for learning about my equipment. Trust me...Control4 is the absolute worst system you can purchase. Right now, I cannot operate any of my TV's because for some reason, Control 4 does not have an internet connection. I will be ripping every item from the POS company out next week and using my AppleTV instead.


It's a shame that you have had a bad experience like that with a dealer from 7 years ago, as a well installed system should run problem free for years. Eventually some problems do arise, but most are easy to solve and fix. Sometimes you have hardware failures, or third party components not working correctly. Yes, many dealers do charge quite a bit per hour for service, and while $150 is high in many markets, we don't work for free and often charge as much per hour as a plumber, electrician or HVAC technicians.

If you gave us a little more background on your current system, what components you have, we may be able to help you get it running like it should. Even without an internet connection, an HDMI matrix should still function properly within the system.


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## smoothtlk

I wonder if the OP is really speaking of "no network connection". Which, if that was the case, is much more likely the installer not C4.


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## Mntneer

smoothtlk said:


> I wonder if the OP is really speaking of "no network connection". Which, if that was the case, is much more likely the installer not C4.


So many issues boil down to either network issues, or third party product issues. Occasionally there are the hardware failures, even in C4, but those are unavoidable in almost any consumer grade electronic.


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## markmon1

Any system that requires a tech / dealer to do configuration work or changes to is a non starter for me. I think this is the OP's point as well. He's not complaining that the control 4 has no internet. He's complaining that its something that is setup as such that he cannot investigate / fix himself. I agree everyone should stay far away from this sort of thing.


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## bryantc

Its so funny whenever there is a post about a bad Control4 experience the answer from the fanatics is always "find a better dealer".


How about ditch the dealer altogether. These types of systems are a total dead end. They served their purpose back in the 80s and 90s but the world has moved on.


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## Mntneer

bryantc said:


> Its so funny whenever there is a post about a bad Control4 experience the answer from the fanatics is always "find a better dealer".
> 
> 
> How about ditch the dealer altogether. These types of systems are a total dead end. They served their purpose back in the 80s and 90s but the world has moved on.


Because not everyone is capable of doing it themselves. It's no different than Plumbing, Electrical or HVAC (or a number of other residential trades). The people I work for a people who either don't have the time to do it themselves, or the technical knowledge to do it themselves. 

There is something to be said for a turnkey solution that requires no hands on work by the client, and while I can certainly install a faucet in my house, I'm still going to call a professional to install a Water Softener or Water Heater.


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## kanaka1

Matt Stultz said:


> I have been a hostage of Control4 for the past 7 years. This is a dealer-focused system, meaning you will have to pay for everything little quirk that occurs because you have to be Einstein in order to do anything yourself. My nightmare included a company in the Phoenix Area called Independent Electric who was a Control 4 dealer. They managed to convince me to spend over $10k on all the equipment and stuff so I could watch TV and listen to music anywhere in my house. After their horrendous installation in my equipment closet (it literally had cords bunched up with equipment on top of the cords) i continued to spend hundreds if not thousands more for every little item that went wrong. The best part is that they abandoned me and I had to find a new dealer and that guy just loved to charge $150/hr for learning about my equipment. Trust me...Control4 is the absolute worst system you can purchase. Right now, I cannot operate any of my TV's because for some reason, Control 4 does not have an internet connection. I will be ripping every item from the POS company out next week and using my AppleTV instead.


control4 is an awesome system if installed and programmed correctly.you had a bad dealer experience.post pictures of the installers name and the bad install on this forum.i would also send the picture and your dealer experience directly to control4 itself.


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## bryantc

Mntneer said:


> Because not everyone is capable of doing it themselves. It's no different than Plumbing, Electrical or HVAC (or a number of other residential trades). The people I work for a people who either don't have the time to do it themselves, or the technical knowledge to do it themselves.
> 
> There is something to be said for a turnkey solution that requires no hands on work by the client, and while I can certainly install a faucet in my house, I'm still going to call a professional to install a Water Softener or Water Heater.


 These analogies aren't even remotely relevant. Plumbing and AC are install it and forget it systems. You never need to worry about them again until they break.


Home automation by its very nature is something that you are going to constantly tweak and add to (not to mention its going to break down a lot more than other systems in your house too). Having to constantly go thru a dealer for this is not something most people are going to want.



Yes there are people who will gladly pay to have someone else do everything for them. Just like there are people who pay to have someone "install" a new TV for them. These people aren't very likely to be posting on online forums though.


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## Defcon

Control4 is above my pay grade and I don't own anything with that feature or anything bought from a dealer, but from what I've seen over last few years, the home assistants like Alexa/Google Home and HDME CEC have basically made all these systems including universal remotes, Harmony, Control4 etc redundant.

I can use my voice to turn on and off my tv, receiver, bluray player with a single command, control features, change inputs etc. Any remote works with other devices using CEC. I don't have smart lights etc but all those can be linked together in routines.

All of this needed NO other expense or equipment, its all built in and keeps improving with software updates. Why do people need more? Or rather, what else does Control4 offer?


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## bryantc

David Haddad said:


> Ironic post above as it's fanatical, inaccurate, and all black/white.
> 
> As far as "find a better installer", when someone has a home built and it has all sorts of issues, people usually have the common sense to realize they should be blaming the builder. Rather than ranting "don't ever buy a house!". Though it's understandable that when it happens with electronics it's often the manufacturer that gets blamed - and to be clear no one disputes there are instances in which manufacturers do sell buggy products.
> 
> In this instance the OP even stated that the installation was so bad the components were laying on tops of cords, so ya, it's pretty obvious this was not a good installation. Oh, and the reason installers often tell people "find a better installer" is that they have some knowledge of which systems should be reliable and when it's likely an installation related issue.


 Control4 is responsible for their dealers. It shouldn't be the customers responsibility to have to go thru a dozen different dealers to find one that is actually good. You'd think they would have more oversight over how their products are being sold but seems like they are just happy to have anyone sell them. Even their "diamond" and "platinum" rankings are based on nothing but sales numbers rather than actual quality of service.


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## bryantc

Defcon said:


> Control4 is above my pay grade and I don't own anything with that feature or anything bought from a dealer, but from what I've seen over last few years, the home assistants like Alexa/Google Home and HDME CEC have basically made all these systems including universal remotes, Harmony, Control4 etc redundant.
> 
> I can use my voice to turn on and off my tv, receiver, bluray player with a single command, control features, change inputs etc. Any remote works with other devices using CEC. I don't have smart lights etc but all those can be linked together in routines.
> 
> All of this needed NO other expense or equipment, its all built in and keeps improving with software updates. Why do people need more? Or rather, *what else does Control4 offer?*


Nothing. Its at the high end of the market and its just going to get pushed further up as the consumer platforms become more powerful. Assuming they are able to stay in business that is.


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## Steve Sleeve

Control 4 (for the large majority of on commercial accounts of course not in every case) is for people that are wealthy, driven and value their time being successful in their careers so much so that they find it worth having everything handed to them reliably working for AV in their home. If you are not wealthy and don't mind researching and doing it yourself there are cheaper options that will work as well.


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## Defcon

Stephen Dohring said:


> Control 4 (for the large majority of on commercial accounts of course not in every case) is for people that are wealthy, driven and value their time being successful in their careers so much so that they find it worth having everything handed to them reliably working for AV in their home. If you are not wealthy and don't mind researching and doing it yourself there are cheaper options that will work as well.


I like researching stuff (anyone on this site is in a tiny minority by definition) but none of this is complicated and is actually meant for normal people - I'm talking about all the smart assistant enabled devices. Walk into BestBuy or go online and nearly every single thing has it built and will keep increasing.

Control4 etc will remain as an option for custom integrators who will then get to sell you custom addons/switches etc. Like the OP said if you need to change or fix anything you just spend more $$. Its not better in any meaningful sense, just different and not affordable by others, which is the key quality wealthy people want.


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## ezlotogura

bryantc said:


> Control4 is responsible for their dealers. It shouldn't be the customers responsibility to have to go thru a dozen different dealers to find one that is actually good. You'd think they would have more oversight over how their products are being sold but seems like they are just happy to have anyone sell them. Even their "diamond" and "platinum" rankings are based on nothing but sales numbers rather than actual quality of service.


sometimes it is a 2 way street. I always say there are 3 sides to the story - the home owner, the dealer and the truth is somewhere in between. It is very easy for a home owner to come onto a forum and rant about a product/service, etc. But maybe the dealer told them I will do XYZ and the owner heard they will get ABC and there is a disconnect.

So instead of saying "my dealer is bad" a lot of times you need more info. Maybe the home owner wanted to "own" the network, the dealer installed C4, there are wrong settings on the switches and things are going haywire. Is that the dealers fault? 

Lastly - there are plenty of people who want a set it / forget it solution and who also want to outsource it. That is where C4, Crestron, RTI, Savant, etc all find their customers.

Lastly - Alexa is control, not automation. So when you say I can do it all with Alexa, frankly, you are wrong. You can control things, you cannot automate things. An example I give is I can get my kwikset deadbolt to talk to my DSC Security panel to talk to my C4 lighting to talk to my Sonos music and to talk to my GE laundry. When my housekeeper comes over she puts 1 code into my door. door unlocks, alarm off. lights on, music on. when she leaves, she locks the door with 1 press of a button, alarm engages, music off, lights off and my laundry machine starts because she left the rags in there to be cleaned. This all gets done with a code to enter my house (4-6 digits) and 1 press of the lock button to leave. This isnt a competition, just merely saying a true automation system (c4 or others) are more than control systems (Alexa).


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## ezlotogura

Defcon said:


> Control4 is above my pay grade and I don't own anything with that feature or anything bought from a dealer, but from what I've seen over last few years, the home assistants like Alexa/Google Home and HDME CEC have basically made all these systems including universal remotes, Harmony, Control4 etc redundant.
> 
> I can use my voice to turn on and off my tv, receiver, bluray player with a single command, control features, change inputs etc. Any remote works with other devices using CEC. I don't have smart lights etc but all those can be linked together in routines.
> 
> All of this needed NO other expense or equipment, its all built in and keeps improving with software updates. Why do people need more? Or rather, what else does Control4 offer?


what you described is control, not automation. besides, is watching tv shouting out channel #s a good experience? A remote is necessarily for 90% of people to watch TV. Control4 offers a remote but that is 1/100th of the ecosystem. I gave an example below of automation with my housekeeper and how appliances from 4-5 vendors all act together, in unison. if you want to just turn a TV on/off, Control4 is overkill. if you want to automate your house, c4 is a great option. From an automation standpoint, I rarely turn lights on/off anymore in my house. That is not control, its automation, and a very simple example people use daily.


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## Defcon

ezlotogura said:


> what you described is control, not automation. besides, is watching tv shouting out channel #s a good experience? A remote is necessarily for 90% of people to watch TV. Control4 offers a remote but that is 1/100th of the ecosystem. I gave an example below of automation with my housekeeper and how appliances from 4-5 vendors all act together, in unison. if you want to just turn a TV on/off, Control4 is overkill. if you want to automate your house, c4 is a great option. From an automation standpoint, I rarely turn lights on/off anymore in my house. That is not control, its automation, and a very simple example people use daily.


You make a good distinction and the example you gave above is certainly not possible with these assistants. However I believe there must be a middle ground between dealer installed and configured $$$$ systems and something the user can do herself. e.g. there used to be home automation kits (x500, Zigby etc, forgot the names).

Also i think even in the example you gave above, if all those devices had Google/Alexa integration builtin, you can create a routine to automate all those tasks . The key here is the trigger - in your example its entering a code, or it could be voice command, or facial recognition, or biometrics - after that everything runs.


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## ezlotogura

Defcon said:


> You make a good distinction and the example you gave above is certainly not possible with these assistants. However I believe there must be a middle ground between dealer installed and configured $$$$ systems and something the user can do herself. e.g. there used to be home automation kits (x500, Zigby etc, forgot the names).
> 
> Also i think even in the example you gave above, if all those devices had Google/Alexa integration builtin, you can create a routine to automate all those tasks . The key here is the trigger - in your example its entering a code, or it could be voice command, or facial recognition, or biometrics - after that everything runs.


there are middle ground options like Vera or Smartthings. Just be careful because a few other "big box store" hubs have come and gone. And those hubs cannot control as many devices as a CI offering. People on here rep Allnois and CQC which by their claims can replicate a Custom Install experience without requiring the use of the dealer.

Mind you, once your dealer sets up control4, you can do 100% of programming with Composer Home Edition. So its a middle ground, but still an expensive not 100% DIY option.


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## bryantc

David Haddad said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su0iY7MV0ZE
> Below is a voice rec system with natural language recognition and compound command capabilities that costs over 10x what Amazon and Google do. No doubt some folks here will be telling how "Alexa can do all that".


Because it can. There is not a single example of automation in that video. That is just the most basic level of control that any system could get you including alexa, apple, google, smartthings, etc. 10x the cost?? Sorry but that guy got ripped off.


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## thebland

Judging by the OP's grammar and lack of sophistication in describing his problem(s), my guess is that he bought a house with an old C4 system in it and was shocked at the cost to get it up and running....


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## Mntneer

bryantc said:


> These analogies aren't even remotely relevant. Plumbing and AC are install it and forget it systems. You never need to worry about them again until they break.
> 
> Home automation by its very nature is something that you are going to constantly tweak and add to (not to mention its going to break down a lot more than other systems in your house too). Having to constantly go thru a dealer for this is not something most people are going to want.
> 
> Yes there are people who will gladly pay to have someone else do everything for them. Just like there are people who pay to have someone "install" a new TV for them. These people aren't very likely to be posting on online forums though.


Really? I've got clients that haven't touched their systems for years. They just simply enjoy them.

A good HA system... with a good installer... is "install it and forget it". Yes, you may want to add a new component from time to time (most average users really don't), just as you may want to replace a light switch or install a new thermostat. In those cases, it's always best to have professionals do that work for you.

And in terms of Box Stores and the products they sell, I saw a statistic about a year ago that 3/4 of those that purchase a device from a store like Lowes, Best Buy, etc. find themselves spending more than an hour either on the phone with tech support, or online searching for solutions, and another percentage end up returning the devices all together. 

I'm not saying the CI route is the way to go for all consumers, but for many, it's no different than any other residential trade that work on your house.


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## cmcjo

On a side note, the new Control4 3.0 is really nice. Drag and drop items where you want. I know its nothing new to the DIY crowd, but its new for Control4. I did this in about 5 minutes on the TP. And my c4 system has been rock solid for 2 years. A solid and approved network is a must. And a dealer that knows what he is doing. I have seen several hack jobs and I have no idea how they even passed the 1 week class. 

Composer for End users does everything you would need to do except add devices. There are several really good online programmers that can add the device in minutes for very little cost and sometimes no cost.


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## AV_Integrated

bryantc said:


> Home automation by its very nature is something that you are going to constantly tweak and add to (not to mention its going to break down a lot more than other systems in your house too). Having to constantly go thru a dealer for this is not something most people are going to want.
> 
> 
> Yes there are people who will gladly pay to have someone else do everything for them. Just like there are people who pay to have someone "install" a new TV for them. These people aren't very likely to be posting on online forums though.


I'm in agreement with the prior poster on this issue. Systems like C4 are not installed by DiYers, they are installed by what SHOULD be professionals who know what the end-user is going to do with the system and if properly installed rarely has changes made to it.

As a Crestron programmer/installer, I see this all the time from my client's who have me set a system up and may call for something once every 2-3 years. Sometimes less. I've gone out to one client to fix Internet issues in their home, which have nothing to do with the A/V installation I did, multiple times. Similarly, I have a client with 40+ outdoor speakers that I visit a few times a year and it's almost always about a wire which a landscaper cut. Rarely is it about the control system.

But, those are factors of a good installer vs. a poor one.

Clearly, the installer should be reported to C4 for their failure to deliver a quality product, and it's a reminder that people who want white glove service need to ensure they are dealing with a white glove level installation company.

I think your second point was far more accurate. People on THESE types of forums don't understand why people aren't always tweaking their system, adding new sources and speakers, and everything else, and just doing it themselves... Just like you do. The problem is that we are a incredible minority of the nation, and those that want a fairly static system and have the money to pay for it, often go down the path of C4 or similar automation systems.

How much is truly automated is a different story as I'm not much of a fan of automation myself, but I do want ease of control, consistency of control, and reliability, which is what Crestron offers to me in my home and to my clients.


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## bryantc

AV_Integrated said:


> people who want white glove service need to ensure they are dealing with a white glove level installation company.


Isn't white glove service the default? Isn't that the whole point of dealers in the first place?


I've only been reading this forum for 1 year and I've already seen half a dozen threads with this exact problem. Control4 needs better oversight over their dealers. They are only hurting themselves when people have this kind of experience with their products.


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## ezlotogura

bryantc said:


> Isn't white glove service the default? Isn't that the whole point of dealers in the first place?
> 
> 
> I've only been reading this forum for 1 year and I've already seen half a dozen threads with this exact problem. Control4 needs better oversight over their dealers. They are only hurting themselves when people have this kind of experience with their products.


I thought I was getting white glove service when I hired a landscape contractor to re-do my retaining walls and build a front walkway. The walkway is already falling to pieces and they never came to finish the walls (luckily as given their craftsmanship I wouldn't want them touching the walls). They are "authorized" by the manufacture of the paver I used, known outfit at the stoneyard where I shopped, etc. 

this happens in all trades and walks of life. My driveway - going on 7 months now - is a prime example. projects go south. I did not ask the landscape contractor to give me "non white glove" service to leave me in this bind. I asked for services, promises were made, then broken.

So should I go about the internet bad mouthing the paver company because 1 of their 1,000's of installers did a crappy job? Nope, I am an adult with big boy pants and I am working through several avenues to remedy the situation - first and foremost, getting quotes AND REFERENCES for a 2nd outfit to come by to do the work. I did not do my homework enough the first go around so I learned - live and learn.


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## Mntneer

ezlotogura said:


> I thought I was getting white glove service when I hired a landscape contractor to re-do my retaining walls and build a front walkway. The walkway is already falling to pieces and they never came to finish the walls (luckily as given their craftsmanship I wouldn't want them touching the walls). They are "authorized" by the manufacture of the paver I used, known outfit at the stoneyard where I shopped, etc.
> 
> this happens in all trades and walks of life. My driveway - going on 7 months now - is a prime example. projects go south. I did not ask the landscape contractor to give me "non white glove" service to leave me in this bind. I asked for services, promises were made, then broken.
> 
> So should I go about the internet bad mouthing the paver company because 1 of their 1,000's of installers did a crappy job? Nope, I am an adult with big boy pants and I am working through several avenues to remedy the situation - first and foremost, getting quotes AND REFERENCES for a 2nd outfit to come by to do the work. I did not do my homework enough the first go around so I learned - live and learn.


And this pretty much holds true with all trades in the residential (and even commercial) markets. I don't blame Trane if my Heat Pump is installed incorrectly.


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## bryantc

I really wish we could stop with these home improvement analogies. 

You didn't pick out a brand of concrete and then find someone to install it for you. You found a contractor to build something for you and he used whatever material he has. 

I know there are people that deal with home automation in the same way. But there are also people who pick out the system they want (as is endlessly recommended on this forum) and then have to find a dealer to install it. For them the dealer is inseparable from the product they are selling.

And it seems like I see way more complaints about Control4 dealers and systems than I do other brands.


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## ezlotogura

bryantc said:


> I really wish we could stop with these home improvement analogies.
> 
> You didn't pick out a brand of concrete and then find someone to install it for you. You found a contractor to build something for you and he used whatever material he has.
> 
> I know there are people that deal with home automation in the same way. But there are also people who pick out the system they want (as is endlessly recommended on this forum) and then have to find a dealer to install it. For them the dealer is inseparable from the product they are selling.
> 
> And it seems like I see way more complaints about Control4 dealers and systems than I do other brands.


you see more complaints about c4 because there are more RESIDENTIAL c4 systems in play compared to Savant, Elan, etc. I'd almost beg to say there are more C4 than Crestron RESIDENTIAL installs but also the normal Crestron customer is someone likely not on a DIY forum complaining about stuff. Its a much higher end clientele likely not to be on these types of user forums. They also pay 2x or more.

Oh and thanks for telling me how I shopped and selected my landscaping outfit but you are 100% factually wrong. We saw a paver we liked at the wholesaler stone yard. We found out who was authorized to install it from the manufacturer. our GC knew one of the outfits on the list and gave us a recommendation. I did not get a 2nd quote. I did not ask for references. I was doing a lot of home work and threw out some blind trust. Again I learned.


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## Mntneer

bryantc said:


> I really wish we could stop with these home improvement analogies.
> 
> You didn't pick out a brand of concrete and then find someone to install it for you. You found a contractor to build something for you and he used whatever material he has.
> 
> I know there are people that deal with home automation in the same way. But there are also people who pick out the system they want (as is endlessly recommended on this forum) and then have to find a dealer to install it. For them the dealer is inseparable from the product they are selling.
> 
> And it seems like I see way more complaints about Control4 dealers and systems than I do other brands.


As both a Builder and a CI, I can tell you that from the Builder's perspective I do NOT pick out whatever products I want to use in any client's project without first getting approval from the client/owner and/or architect/engineer, and that includes Concrete. Every proper project begins with a complete set of plans and specifications, and those specifications should be complete enough to outline every single product used in the project. Now, granted some track builders don't operate in this manner, and owners are unfortunately left with little in way of control over those products. 

The mistake many owners make in the construction process, when it comes to CI, is they wait too late into the game to really make those important decisions, as Network, Audio/Video, etc. should be engineered and designed when other MEP trades are being designed and engineered. And unfortunately, just like in any other trade, there are bad apples that can drag everyone down.


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## markmon1

ezlotogura said:


> So should I go about the internet bad mouthing the paver company because 1 of their 1,000's of installers did a crappy job?


Control 4 creates a platform where installers are needed so bad installers are tied with their product.
Other alternatives require no installers or programmers so you can fix everything yourself. 

If your paver company provided pavers that were only installable with special tools only their authorized paid installers had, and was competing with other types of stones that catered to being self installed or at least installed with standard tools anyone could purchase, then yes you should bad mouth your paver company for the installers work because that paver company created a product that requires third party installers.


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## ezlotogura

markmon1 said:


> Control 4 creates a platform where installers are needed so bad installers are tied with their product.
> Other alternatives require no installers or programmers so you can fix everything yourself.
> 
> If your paver company provided pavers that were only installable with special tools only their authorized paid installers had, and was competing with other types of stones that catered to being self installed or at least installed with standard tools anyone could purchase, then yes you should bad mouth your paver company for the installers work because that paver company created a product that requires third party installers.


My walls are over 4' - so yes certain equipment is needed including some barrier for drainage sold by the company who sells the pavers and they do not sell direct to consumers. I need permits, I need engineers to design/approve plans given the height requirements of the wall, etc. I cannot go to a big box store, buy some pavers and make a wall. Sorry, not allowed in my town for this type of project. I need to hire certain people with certain skills/degrees/licenses and who have access to certain tools I cannot buy. 

Oh and funny if you want to talk licenses and the state of the CI business, the state of NJ (Where I live) has a bill up for voting that would not allow CI people who are not certified electricians install ethernet wires https://www.cepro.com/article/time_electrical_license_now

What everyone is always forgetting, no one forces you to pick C4. If you do not want a CI product do not get a CI product. If I did not want an engineer for this project I'd just rent some big dirt mover and grade my yard further. It would look like garbage and fall apart and create all sorts of water issues, but hey, I'd have no one to blame but me. But the path I am taking - replacing the current wall with another wall - means I need to hire a group of people. If I wanted to do it myself I could but that is not a good option here. For some, hiring a CI is better than not.

Control4 is a home appliance. It is hiring a tradesman. That is how it is marketed and sold. If you are not interested, then find something that suits you. 

If you want another analogy, asking why someone wants it is like asking why someone wants to drive a Porsche? The speed limit in NJ is 65. A Honda drive 65 mph too but I see plenty of Porsche's on the road where I live. What about that $2mm car Tracy Morgan just nicked up. You know an oil change for that car is $25,000 and must be done by a certified technician and there are not many around. Why would someone buy a car if they cannot do the oil change and they have to pay $25,000? He knew what he was getting into, he has the money and he'll find a tech he likes. Its a super extreme example but there are many non DIY people in the world. this is a DIY forum, so enjoy the community. I do. But to go on and on about dealers and dealer based products is just boring and tired. There are examples on both sides of the fence and lucky for the DIY crowd there are a TON of DIY options. 

As a C4 user, who has his own gripes with the system but such is life because the good outweighs the bad, when I see people on here with C4 issues I'll try to help knowing its like not the computer/C4/hub issue but something else. That's all. And yes, for every unsatisfied customer you probably have 100's or 1,000's that are happy and never say a word. I used to work in retail, upset customers are way more vocal than happy customers, its a fact.


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## markmon1

ezlotogura said:


> My walls are over 4' - so yes certain equipment is needed including some barrier for drainage sold by the company who sells the pavers and they do not sell direct to consumers. I need permits, I need engineers to design/approve plans given the height requirements of the wall, etc. I cannot go to a big box store, buy some pavers and make a wall. Sorry, not allowed in my town for this type of project. I need to hire certain people with certain skills/degrees/licenses and who have access to certain tools I cannot buy.
> 
> Oh and funny if you want to talk licenses and the state of the CI business, the state of NJ (Where I live) has a bill up for voting that would not allow CI people who are not certified electricians install ethernet wires https://www.cepro.com/article/time_electrical_license_now
> 
> What everyone is always forgetting, no one forces you to pick C4. If you do not want a CI product do not get a CI product. If I did not want an engineer for this project I'd just rent some big dirt mover and grade my yard further. It would look like garbage and fall apart and create all sorts of water issues, but hey, I'd have no one to blame but me. But the path I am taking - replacing the current wall with another wall - means I need to hire a group of people. If I wanted to do it myself I could but that is not a good option here. For some, hiring a CI is better than not.
> 
> Control4 is a home appliance. It is hiring a tradesman. That is how it is marketed and sold. If you are not interested, then find something that suits you.
> 
> If you want another analogy, asking why someone wants it is like asking why someone wants to drive a Porsche? The speed limit in NJ is 65. A Honda drive 65 mph too but I see plenty of Porsche's on the road where I live. What about that $2mm car Tracy Morgan just nicked up. You know an oil change for that car is $25,000 and must be done by a certified technician and there are not many around. Why would someone buy a car if they cannot do the oil change and they have to pay $25,000? He knew what he was getting into, he has the money and he'll find a tech he likes. Its a super extreme example but there are many non DIY people in the world. this is a DIY forum, so enjoy the community. I do. But to go on and on about dealers and dealer based products is just boring and tired. There are examples on both sides of the fence and lucky for the DIY crowd there are a TON of DIY options.
> 
> As a C4 user, who has his own gripes with the system but such is life because the good outweighs the bad, when I see people on here with C4 issues I'll try to help knowing its like not the computer/C4/hub issue but something else. That's all. And yes, for every unsatisfied customer you probably have 100's or 1,000's that are happy and never say a word. I used to work in retail, upset customers are way more vocal than happy customers, its a fact.


Yea, I don't know about any of that stuff with the car, I dont care about cars. This thread is about control 4 being the worst and to stay away. To that, I'd say I agree because any automation product that requires a paid installer to do simple stuff like add a device is a big non starter. Someone tried to blame the installer indicating that control4 is fine, to which I say control 4 sucks for requiring an installer in the first place.

If I was a car nut, and there was a thread on a car forum about a $2m car being the worst because it required a $25k oil change, I'd agree there as well. That car sounds terrible. I hear Tracy Morgan got in a wreck in that thing seconds after driving it off the lot. If he's lucky, his insurance co will cash him out and he can be done.


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## ezlotogura

markmon1 said:


> Yea, I don't know about any of that stuff with the car, I dont care about cars. This thread is about control 4 being the worst and to stay away. To that, I'd say I agree because any automation product that requires a paid installer to do simple stuff like add a device is a big non starter. Someone tried to blame the installer indicating that control4 is fine, to which I say control 4 sucks for requiring an installer in the first place.
> 
> If I was a car nut, and there was a thread on a car forum about a $2m car being the worst because it required a $25k oil change, I'd agree there as well. That car sounds terrible. I hear Tracy Morgan got in a wreck in that thing seconds after driving it off the lot. If he's lucky, his insurance co will cash him out and he can be done.


if Tracy Morgan was smart he would have had the car on a flat bed delivered to his house vs driving it off the showroom floor in NYC. If anyone knows the streets of NYC - just the potholes alone - makes zero sense.

Anyways - if something is a non starter for you that's fine. that does not mean it sucks. And if you have no experience with the system (you have not mentioned I do not believe) then the opinion becomes even more irrelevant to gauge the quality of the platform. 

and btw - do you notice that most of the time these anti C4 posts get on here the OP NEVER COMES BACK! The person who posted here to start this thread never returned to reply, has 1 total post and created the account the day the post was created. Hmm....


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## ezlotogura

oh and to give more credit to the OP - he said he cannot watch Tv because C4 has no internet and blames C4 hardware. Need I say more? There is a vote for the DIY crowd knowing better.


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## AV_Integrated

I've heard this before with C4 and the Ineternet. I've heard that the system doesn't work at all without a proper network connection, and that it has a tendency to drop that network connection. I personally have NO idea what that means. This is coming from a client who I installed a system into their basement using Crestron for the theater. C4 everywhere else in their home. Crestron offers Internet/network attached control, but I used a standard RF remote in his setup. He wanted reliability. I never received any calls for issues with his system since the initial installation, which was finished on time with a fixed budget.

The reality is that if C4 has some actual issues with networking, then that is a C4 issue at a company level.

But, with about 20 years now in the AV industry, one of the things that I've really learned is that installers are often very bad. They can pull cables just fine, and as long as it is simple enough, they can make connections, but few installers have a techie who actually understands the nuances of a product and how it works. For them it is just a job, not a hobby, and they rarely have nice systems at home. This is crazy to me, who has a distributed audio/video system with 20+ zones available to me. I pulled the wire, I hooked it all up, I can run it from my phone, or locally in the rooms as I wish. I add to it with things every year, and because I can tinker with code, I get the new Blu-ray for the system, or add a Roku or Shield to see what the potential is.

Yes, everyone claims to be 'white glove', but that is why references matter.


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## smoothtlk

Wonder if the OP's system is 100% streaming sources hence the need for Internet....

But, since it seems to be a Hit and Run post....maybe we will never uncover the root of the mystery.


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## AV_Integrated

smoothtlk said:


> Wonder if the OP's system is 100% streaming sources hence the need for Internet....
> 
> But, since it seems to be a Hit and Run post....maybe we will never uncover the root of the mystery.


!!! HA !!!

On that note, just had a client call up and complain that their phone doesn't work on their system and it's SUPER important that we get this fixed right away.

Response: Did you order a phone line for your room like we asked you to do two months ago?

Them: .......


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## ezlotogura

smoothtlk said:


> Wonder if the OP's system is 100% streaming sources hence the need for Internet....
> 
> But, since it seems to be a Hit and Run post....maybe we will never uncover the root of the mystery.


well if you TV content provider is the cable company, and the "cable is out" then both internet and cable tv will not work. if you stream content and your ISP is down it will not work. But to blame control4 on the lack of internet and watching TV show's the OP is not an informed customer on how things would work and if they go the DIY route it will fail just as bad. Then they'll go rant on Best Buy or Amazon or complain on Apple forums their Apple TV stinks because they have no internet and cannot watch TV.


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## ezlotogura

AV_Integrated said:


> I've heard this before with C4 and the Ineternet. I've heard that the system doesn't work at all without a proper network connection, and that it has a tendency to drop that network connection. I personally have NO idea what that means. This is coming from a client who I installed a system into their basement using Crestron for the theater. C4 everywhere else in their home. Crestron offers Internet/network attached control, but I used a standard RF remote in his setup. He wanted reliability. I never received any calls for issues with his system since the initial installation, which was finished on time with a fixed budget.
> 
> The reality is that if C4 has some actual issues with networking, then that is a C4 issue at a company level.
> 
> But, with about 20 years now in the AV industry, one of the things that I've really learned is that installers are often very bad. They can pull cables just fine, and as long as it is simple enough, they can make connections, but few installers have a techie who actually understands the nuances of a product and how it works. For them it is just a job, not a hobby, and they rarely have nice systems at home. This is crazy to me, who has a distributed audio/video system with 20+ zones available to me. I pulled the wire, I hooked it all up, I can run it from my phone, or locally in the rooms as I wish. I add to it with things every year, and because I can tinker with code, I get the new Blu-ray for the system, or add a Roku or Shield to see what the potential is.
> 
> Yes, everyone claims to be 'white glove', but that is why references matter.


C4 has nothing to do with your internet connection. A c4 controller hooks up to your network but in no way manages the network.

For years C4 gave dealers a guide on how to set up a network, approved and non approved devices, etc but it was hard to manage every C4 installation with every type of switch/router combo available. Therefore, C4 purchased Pakedge which is a line of routers/switches/APs so a dealer could just buy from C4, get Pakedge hardware and get support from C4 for both C4 controllers/hardware and Pakedge. They are trying to lower the learning curve on the networking side of things by now owning a networking company. I believe some of the Pakedge stuff dealers can get likely come with settings geared towards a C4 install to make it very plug and play on dealers with less networking experience.

But if the OP says he cannot watch TV because he has no internet and its C4's fault, then he will fail at DIY too because C4's controller has nothing to do with internet access. one of the selling points of C4, or any localized hub, is that it is not cloud based and it functions WITHOUT internet access. So yeah if internet is down I cannot stream music or watch TV but that is because of my ISP connection. C4 will still automate my lights and blinds and everything else without internet.


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## smoothtlk

Not that it makes any difference, but just for discussion, if the user is setup with FireTV / AndroidTV / NvidiaShield streaming devices and getting content from Netflix / Hulu / Amazon...then the Internet could be up and the system not "be able to watch TV" if the system isn't configured correctly / in the way the OP expects it to function. Either way, the OP based on one post isn't ready to DIY a complicated system.


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## ezlotogura

smoothtlk said:


> Not that it makes any difference, but just for discussion, if the user is setup with FireTV / AndroidTV / NvidiaShield streaming devices and getting content from Netflix / Hulu / Amazon...then the Internet could be up and the system not "be able to watch TV" if the system isn't configured correctly / in the way the OP expects it to function. Either way, the OP based on one post isn't ready to DIY a complicated system.


that would be a network connection issue, not an internet connection issue

(copy and pasted below from the OP):

_"Right now, I cannot operate any of my TV's because for some reason, Control 4 does not have an internet connection."_

this truly makes zero sense. And if a DIY person does not know the difference, good luck to them and their future DIY projects.


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## Mntneer

ezlotogura said:


> C4 has nothing to do with your internet connection. A c4 controller hooks up to your network but in no way manages the network.
> 
> For years C4 gave dealers a guide on how to set up a network, approved and non approved devices, etc but it was hard to manage every C4 installation with every type of switch/router combo available. Therefore, C4 purchased Pakedge which is a line of routers/switches/APs so a dealer could just buy from C4, get Pakedge hardware and get support from C4 for both C4 controllers/hardware and Pakedge. They are trying to lower the learning curve on the networking side of things by now owning a networking company. I believe some of the Pakedge stuff dealers can get likely come with settings geared towards a C4 install to make it very plug and play on dealers with less networking experience.
> 
> But if the OP says he cannot watch TV because he has no internet and its C4's fault, then he will fail at DIY too because C4's controller has nothing to do with internet access. one of the selling points of C4, or any localized hub, is that it is not cloud based and it functions WITHOUT internet access. So yeah if internet is down I cannot stream music or watch TV but that is because of my ISP connection. C4 will still automate my lights and blinds and everything else without internet.


That's correct. You can run a C4 system without an internet, but you do have to have a network.

In a "simple" system, on a stable and reliable network, the typical user should face very little issue with reliability. Typical issues arise when either the network is crap, or a third party device or driver fails.


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## Mushygal

*Control4 is Obsolete and a Nightmare*

If you have Control4, GET RID OF IT!! If you are thinking of getting it, DO NOT!!!!!

I am not a techie like some on this forum, but I am no idiot either. We bought a house six months ago that has a Control4 version from 2010. This is the MOST user unfriendly, obscenely expensive and worthless system I can imagine. Went through THREE companies in the Scottsdale/Phoenix area trying to find help in learning how to use it, set it up, maintain it - what a total JOKE. I spent hundreds for nothing. I have an entire closet of equipment - and it is TOTALLY unnecessary as 'smart' equipment can now do _anything_ Control4 does, for a tenth of the cost. I would have to spend over 8K to update my system, or thousands and multiple tens of hours of my precious time just to get it working properly and learn it thoroughly. None of the people that came here even understood how the older system works, which is de facto proof they have no idea how to support a system almost 10 years old; making it functionally obsolete. I am going to be paying an electrician to replace every switch in the house, and it will still be thousands less than getting the existing system running properly or upgrading it. I can now have the same functions with smart bulbs, plugs and hubs, Ecobee for the thermostats and for TV, streaming. Add to that, the cable companies can stream the cable signal - I do not have to plug my televisions into a cable anymore. I somewhat hate that the poor woman who spent the money on this garbage got talked into it - something I would never have done as it was clear even 10 years ago that the future was wireless. Control4 needs to GO AWAY.


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## Mushygal

Matt Stultz said:


> I have been a hostage of Control4 for the past 7 years. This is a dealer-focused system, meaning you will have to pay for everything little quirk that occurs because you have to be Einstein in order to do anything yourself. My nightmare included a company in the Phoenix Area called Independent Electric who was a Control 4 dealer. They managed to convince me to spend over $10k on all the equipment and stuff so I could watch TV and listen to music anywhere in my house. After their horrendous installation in my equipment closet (it literally had cords bunched up with equipment on top of the cords) i continued to spend hundreds if not thousands more for every little item that went wrong. The best part is that they abandoned me and I had to find a new dealer and that guy just loved to charge $150/hr for learning about my equipment. Trust me...Control4 is the absolute worst system you can purchase. Right now, I cannot operate any of my TV's because for some reason, Control 4 does not have an internet connection. I will be ripping every item from the POS company out next week and using my AppleTV instead.


I have had an almost identical experience. I am not a techie like some on this forum, but I am no idiot either. We bought a house six months ago that has a Control4 version from 2010. This is the MOST user unfriendly, obscenely expensive and worthless system I can imagine. Went through THREE companies in the Scottsdale/Phoenix area trying to find help in learning how to use it, set it up, maintain it - what a total JOKE. I spent hundreds for nothing. I have an entire closet of equipment - and it is TOTALLY unnecessary as 'smart' equipment can now do anything Control4 does, for a tenth of the cost. I would have to spend over 8K to update my system, or thousands and multiple tens of hours of my precious time just to get it working properly and learn it thoroughly. None of the people that came here even understood how the older system works, which is de facto proof they have no idea how to support a system almost 10 years old; making it functionally obsolete. I am going to be paying an electrician to replace every switch in the house, and it will still be thousands less than getting the existing system running properly or upgrading it. I can now have the same functions with smart bulbs, plugs and hubs, Ecobee for the thermostats and for TV, streaming. Add to that, the cable companies can stream the cable signal - I do not have to plug my televisions into a cable anymore. I somewhat hate that the poor woman who spent the money on this garbage got talked into it - something I would never have done as it was clear even 10 years ago that the future was wireless. Control4 needs to GO AWAY.


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## cmcjo

It’s almost 10 years old lol. It’s time to update it my brother. Us tech guys want the latest or at least something not a decade old. I have lived with every control system including amx,crestron Rti and others and by far , control4 is the most user friendly and reliable system available. Like I said before , the end user can get the software to do all programming except swap devices. And even then , remote programmers do it for little cost.


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## Mntneer

Some electronic equipment gets outdated after a decade. Sorry that's the reality of the situation, but it's the simple truth. If managed correctly it doesn't have to be that painful, but I would wager the TV's in that House have been replaced since 2010. Why would anyone be surprised that you might have to do the same with a control system?

When I think of what I owned in 2010, not a lick of it is still in use. And I LOVED my Pronto remote.


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## ezlotogura

Mushygal said:


> I have had an almost identical experience. I am not a techie like some on this forum, but I am no idiot either. We bought a house six months ago that has a Control4 version from 2010. This is the MOST user unfriendly, obscenely expensive and worthless system I can imagine. Went through THREE companies in the Scottsdale/Phoenix area trying to find help in learning how to use it, set it up, maintain it - what a total JOKE. I spent hundreds for nothing. I have an entire closet of equipment - and it is TOTALLY unnecessary as 'smart' equipment can now do anything Control4 does, for a tenth of the cost. I would have to spend over 8K to update my system, or thousands and multiple tens of hours of my precious time just to get it working properly and learn it thoroughly. None of the people that came here even understood how the older system works, which is de facto proof they have no idea how to support a system almost 10 years old; making it functionally obsolete. I am going to be paying an electrician to replace every switch in the house, and it will still be thousands less than getting the existing system running properly or upgrading it. I can now have the same functions with smart bulbs, plugs and hubs, Ecobee for the thermostats and for TV, streaming. Add to that, the cable companies can stream the cable signal - I do not have to plug my televisions into a cable anymore. I somewhat hate that the poor woman who spent the money on this garbage got talked into it - something I would never have done as it was clear even 10 years ago that the future was wireless. Control4 needs to GO AWAY.


Most people below hit the nail on the head - you are complaining that 10 year old technology isnt user friend to today's standards. Compare an iPhone from 10 years ago to the latest version, heck it will barely function. My 8 year old iMac Pro is no where near as great as the latest version, so Apple is an awful company for providing me an awful experience.

Look up Walt's TV in your area. I know the head C4 guy there, 100% he can set your 10 year old system straight in a matter of a few hours. Mind you, the original owner may have taken some of their ancillary stuff (receivers, TVs, etc) or maybe even some c4 hardware, so its hard to know from your detail-lacking rant how someone can help you. But if anyone local can help you, its Walts TV. PM me for my contact's name if you are serious about wanting to be up and running in no time.


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## ezlotogura

oh and if you want to get those smart bulbs go for it. Good luck getting them to talk to your security panel so when you come home your lights go on. Or getting them to go on/off when you walk by so you do not even have to turn lights on and off. You certainly can stream to sticks on TVs, but they will not be in sync across the house.

Until you live in an automated house, people get "control" and "automation" confused. It is very had to get pure automation with over the shelf/big box store appliances. If you want control and not automation, you are going down the right path but if you cannot even diagnose what is wrong in the current set up not sure how successful you'll be with a robust DIY install - just my own $.02.

There is always another way to do something, does not make it better, it just makes it more logical to you, which is fine, as the user.


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## bryantc

LOL. Lets keep on blaming the user.


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## eatenbacktolife

I sense a "can I speak to the manager" haircut

Nothing wrong with 10+ year old equipment. I personally have plenty of ancient equipment still in use. 

I still have some Panasonic plasmas

My WHA audio equipment (stack of Biamp Nexias) have been around since 2005-2006 and would still do whatever I need. I only replaced them since I got a great price on something else

Still have a squeezebox as an audio source which still plays music and Pandora without issue (2005.) Sonos has been around for a long time.

My lighting control is probably 8-10 years old with zero plans to replace it anytime soon, if ever.

Lots of my RTI stuff is that old, even some of my in-wall controllers which still work with aplomb. The processors which run everything are close to that age and still get firmware updates


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## ezlotogura

bryantc said:


> LOL. Lets keep on blaming the user.


I did not blame the user, I am just pointing out some basics. I purchased my house in 2015 with an older but still working DSC alarm that was at least 10 years old at the time. Should I have been upset I had no way to remotely monitor/turn on/off the alarm with an app on a 10+ year old alarm system? Gosh I even had to call a licensed DSC dealer to get it running, swap codes to me and update some sensors - the horror! in fact it took me 3 tries too to find a dealer I liked, but I did not pull out the DSC alarm, I just looked for a better dealer. Been with him now for 5 years and have recommended him to several local friends.

The key is finding the right dealer, and I offered to put the user in touch with someone local who can help. Most dealers make their money off selling hardware, so if they see 10 year old stuff they are likely wanting to sell new stuff:
A) because of profit margin, duh
B) simplicity - their time is worth something and to start to pull wire and investigate a take over isnt that easy
C) for what they perceive to be a better user experience with the latest and greatest

The dealer I know in that area is open to working with older gear assuming it is in working order and the wiring can be identifiable and makes sense.

Honestly - did not even seem like the poster wanted help - just another new person who will come here, rant and likely not return, though people are offering help and suggestions.


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## freeoscar

I think you'd be surprised at how capable the DIY systems have become, and at how effective 'voice activation' is in substituting for trigger based automation. In your example, a Nest Secure w/Nest Yale Lock and Google Home would replicate most of it. Code unlock would send you a notification that the specific person arrived (along with a snapshot if you have a nest hello), and disarm the system. I don't believe you can yet trigger Google assistant scenes from a door lock action outside of a separate hub or IFTT, but a simple "Hey Google, I'm here" from the cleaning person would set the lights, and put on the Sonos to a specific playlist (Google has person-specific voice recognition). I'm not really understanding the laundry thing - I mean, for one, what machine has z-wave or zigbee integration? For another, you'd need to make sure there is detergent, the appropriate cycle is engaged and the door is closed. Frankly, if your cleaning lady can't remember to put on the washing machine before she leaves that's a person issue, not a technology one.
Now, can those systems utilize the same components that a Control4 can? No, it's obviously for mass consumer level devices, but then that makes sense given the price points. And of course even C4, Crestron, etc. realized they couldn't play the voice recognition game w/Google, Amazon and Apple so they've made their own systems compatible. And those companies will advance more quickly in the other AI areas as well - they just have too much data and processing and programming power to compete.
As an aside, what's the residential scenario for completely synchronous video? Obviously watching "a big game", but if you're having people over that's broadcast. A movie you are presumably watching on the same screen, and in the case you are not, I can't imagine a few seconds delay would matter - I mean, someone would lose time anyway going from one room to another.


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## ezlotogura

freeoscar said:


> I think you'd be surprised at how capable the DIY systems have become, and at how effective 'voice activation' is in substituting for trigger based automation. In your example, a Nest Secure w/Nest Yale Lock and Google Home would replicate most of it. Code unlock would send you a notification that the specific person arrived (along with a snapshot if you have a nest hello), and disarm the system. I don't believe you can yet trigger Google assistant scenes from a door lock action outside of a separate hub or IFTT, but a simple "Hey Google, I'm here" from the cleaning person would set the lights, and put on the Sonos to a specific playlist (Google has person-specific voice recognition). I'm not really understanding the laundry thing - I mean, for one, what machine has z-wave or zigbee integration? For another, you'd need to make sure there is detergent, the appropriate cycle is engaged and the door is closed. Frankly, if your cleaning lady can't remember to put on the washing machine before she leaves that's a person issue, not a technology one.
> Now, can those systems utilize the same components that a Control4 can? No, it's obviously for mass consumer level devices, but then that makes sense given the price points. And of course even C4, Crestron, etc. realized they couldn't play the voice recognition game w/Google, Amazon and Apple so they've made their own systems compatible. And those companies will advance more quickly in the other AI areas as well - they just have too much data and processing and programming power to compete.
> As an aside, what's the residential scenario for completely synchronous video? Obviously watching "a big game", but if you're having people over that's broadcast. A movie you are presumably watching on the same screen, and in the case you are not, I can't imagine a few seconds delay would matter - I mean, someone would lose time anyway going from one room to another.


But Nest has your recordings in the cloud and hold you hostage paying a monthly fee, no? I get Nest/Ring or whatever always confused, but most of those cameras have monthly recurring fees, not my style. I want to have my recordings locally on my own NVR.

My laundry is Wifi Based, it stores up to 50 loads of liquid detergent at once, etc. You could set it to go automatically, you can set C4 to send you a reminder to run it yourself when you get home, etc, various flavors and ways to integrate it.

Re: whole home video, it has become less important, I agree. The main advantage was if you had a family of 3 kids and 2 parents you have potentially 5 different streams being watched at once. But maybe you had 7-9 TVs (one per bedroom, one in a basement, a living room, maybe a guest room, etc). Some people did not want to rent that many cable boxes AND/OR did not like the look of cable boxes hidden below in furniture. So video distribution helped by getting rid of excess cable boxes (you could argue a family of 5 could get away with less than 5 boxes) and also helped interior designers with better furniture layout options. Realize this is a techy DIY forum but high end residential installs are not looking at putting Cable Boxes below a TV. the benefit is live in sync feeds across the house. We use it for "the big game" but I also use it when say doing tasks in my house. Maybe I am cleaning out the attic and a ball game is on, ill keep the TV on in the office (entrance to attic is in office) and then maybe i keep the TV on in the basement where I drag the junk, break up boxes, etc. If that feed was delayed life would go on. I used to have cable 5 years ago, I do not anymore. So right now my distribution system only has a few streaming sticks but I find it easier to manage 2-3 streaming sticks vs ~10 (2 sticks at each of 5 tvs). and the distribution allows for things to be in sync those few times a year I host "a big game" and it also allows for my IP Cameras to be a PiP source so when my doorbell rings I see the live feed via PiP on my TV. My video distribution also helps with cameras when my alarm goes off - the TV can go on and show my cameras (9 of them) in a 3x3 configuration so I can see any issues quickly without looking at small images on my phone and rotating between images, I see them all at once. I automate this by saying if its after 930pm and before 8am, turn on master bedroom TV and put cameras up in 3x3 format if the alarm is triggered


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## pjp

There must be something in the water in Scottsdale. I have the exact same issue as the OP on a system in Scottsdale. Installed 5 years ago and it literally has never worked properly since shortly after the install. I don't think there is anything wrong with Control 4 hardware, it's just dealing with the dealers that is extremely painful. They don't seem to remember the setup at all, so they were relearning the system every time they came out. I'm sure there are better dealers and worse dealers, but it's "luck of the draw" when you have no basis to know who is good. When we tried to switch to a different C4 dealer, they quoted basically a "from-scratch" configuration price, it's just been a nightmare to deal with. Once the "rescue" is complete, then you can be paired with a dealer you now trust for maintenance of that system.

It is extremely frustrating for anyone. In my case, I have more than a decade of experience with programming Harmony remotes on very complex systems, so to have my hands tied on C4 is 5 times more painful and frustrating.

I don't think it's fair or accurate to say the hardware is bad, but since C4's system success is 100% dependent on C4 dealers' competence and efficiency, they need to do a much better job with ensuring competence and efficiency across all dealers all the time. 

*This is what C4 should seriously do*: Since there are many, many of us who are in the "same boat" with C4 systems that are already programmed for the equipment we have (meaning 95+% of the work is already done), and it only requires minimal work for a qualified expert to get it back up and running, _*instead of leaving customers in the "wild" to gamble on a new installer*_, when we are already livid at the old installer, C4 should offer a "rescue" service where customers can open a rescue case with C4 directly to get it up and running. C4 can would still leverage their network of existing installers to do the work, but C4 would be the customer conduit to make sure the system gets working and to ensure customers aren't gouged for a complete reinstall when it only takes 10 expert mouse clicks to get an already programmed system working. 

I couldn't stomach spending another penny on a $10k system that never worked, but I was quoted $1100 just for labor for a dealer to get an already programmed system working again. Leaving bitter customers in the wild to gamble on another dealer is torture, especially when they've already been burnt badly and are still smoldering years later. C4 can fix this by offering a rescue service that works with their existing dealers. Both C4 and the dealers will earn a lot more business if they can efficiently rescue the many abandoned systems that are out there.


----------



## videostorm

You know, this whole thread could pretty much be summarized by:


Q: Do you want a dealer to sell you a home automation system, install it, configure it, and manage it for you?

Yes => C4 (or RTI, etc) is a good option.
Now go interview some dealers in your area, look at reviews / recommendations, find someone you TRUST
They are now your "automation" person

No => All the dealer installed systems are off the table
Start looking at Alexa / Google integration. Maybe SmartThings also


The first is more expensive, but mostly hands off for you once you find a good dealer.
The second is much more affordable and you will have a new hobby


----------



## bryantc

videostorm said:


> Yes => C4 (or RTI, etc) is a good option.
> Now go interview some dealers in your area, look at reviews / recommendations, find someone you TRUST
> They are now your "automation" person


 That is what everyone keeps saying but it is a lot easier said than done. Dealers always impress you at first and the problem is most first time customers don't know what they want/need.


From my own personal experience I was promised a lot and then when it came down to it there were a bunch of excuses as to why they couldn't do this or that. In the end I ended up with 3 control units that were literally nothing more than universal remote controls for my TV. Within five minutes of the installer leaving I had already ripped it all out and put it up for sale online.


This entire business model is a dead end and the market for this is getting smaller by the day. While the Google's and Amazon's continue to grow.


----------



## videostorm

bryantc said:


> That is what everyone keeps saying but it is a lot easier said than done. Dealers always impress you at first and the problem is most first time customers don't know what they want/need.
> 
> 
> From my own personal experience I was promised a lot and then when it came down to it there were a bunch of excuses as to why they couldn't do this or that. In the end I ended up with 3 control units that were literally nothing more than universal remote controls for my TV. Within five minutes of the installer leaving I had already ripped it all out and put it up for sale online.
> 
> 
> This entire business model is a dead end and the market for this is getting smaller by the day. While the Google's and Amazon's continue to grow.



I agree it can be hard to know. If you can get recommendations from other people they have worked with it is usually the most reliable (there are some great dealers out there, and some bad ones). Bottom line is you will have to depend on your dealer, so if you aren't comfortable with that then don't go that route.

In my home, I have Control4 but that is because we are an integration partner and I can program it all myself (extra privileges)  

I am also a big fan of the both Alexa and Google assistant as a more techie friendly system. That's why we also built in support for those directly in all our products. It is the preferred method for many people.


----------



## ezlotogura

pjp said:


> *This is what C4 should seriously do*: Since there are many, many of us who are in the "same boat" with C4 systems that are already programmed for the equipment we have (meaning 95+% of the work is already done), and it only requires minimal work for a qualified expert to get it back up and running, _*instead of leaving customers in the "wild" to gamble on a new installer*_, when we are already livid at the old installer, C4 should offer a "rescue" service where customers can open a rescue case with C4 directly to get it up and running. C4 can would still leverage their network of existing installers to do the work, but C4 would be the customer conduit to make sure the system gets working and to ensure customers aren't gouged for a complete reinstall when it only takes 10 expert mouse clicks to get an already programmed system working.


Have you actually contacted c4? I have heard numerous stories about their support team reaching out directly to end users and getting them set up a regional district manager or something who brings in a known good dealer/tech to look at the issues, etc.


----------



## pjp

David Haddad said:


> pjp, curious what the process was like when you had your system installed? Did you speak with multiple firms? What caused you to go with the firm you went with?


Recommended by a real estate agent who had used them to install similar systems in high-end rental homes. It's my brother-in-law's house. As the family AV techie, I'm trying to help get it revived, but he's so sick of it he really can't stomach any further investment.


----------



## ezlotogura

pjp said:


> Recommended by a real estate agent


aka a kickback. hate to say it, i rarely take recommendations on face value from those in the trade. I know a few who work in the trade and its all about kick backs for recommending people. I've learned the hard way, speak to users/owners of said product/service and not take a professional recommendation.

either way, I as expressed above, did you personally contact C4 and get turned away?


----------



## pjp

ezlotogura said:


> Have you actually contacted c4? I have heard numerous stories about their support team reaching out directly to end users and getting them set up a regional district manager or something who brings in a known good dealer/tech to look at the issues, etc.


Yes, I contacted C4 and they were helpful and professional. They helped recover the password on the C4 customer account and they provided some guidance so I could resolve the network issues and restore the static IP addresses. The cable company had recently replaced the router with a modem/router and lost the the static addresses in the process (these are the kinds of things that can happen that aren't C4's fault at all, but that was only done in the last 6 months and C4 hadn't worked for years). After restoring the network static routes, I can see all the C4 devices on the network, but none of the zones work. C4 said I needed to pick an installer and register it on my account and then take let them take it from there.

*The "current state of the union"*: The network is correct, all the hardware is online, the original C4 programming is still in place and probably 95% correct, the 5.1 zone will at least change volume on the AVR with SR-250 remote , the 4 "music only" zones don't work. The SR-250 remote itself I find very unintuitive even for me, with a long history of complex remote programming, and it is far less intuitive to the rest of the family. If the SR-250 was the only control device, I wouldn't even think about bothering to get it running again, but now C4 has the smartphone/tablet app, which is a huge benefit and that gives me hope that it will be worthwhile resuscitating it. C4 told me I need the C4 software updated before I can use the app (confirmed by my attempt to use it). I'm told the C4 update radically improves and simplifies streaming, which is also welcome (we currently have a C4 "wireless music bridge" that is apparently no longer needed).

*What C4 needs to fix*: C4 helped me get the system ready to be resuscitated, but I'm on my own to find an installer to get it working. That's where they are falling short for a system that essentially never worked. Now I'm left on my own to find a dealer. The old dealer was horrible and the quote I got from another dealer was outrageous. Based upon past experiences, my faith that the new dealer will fix it without costing a fortune is zero. My brother-in-law is beyond fed up -- for good reason -- his appetite to spend even another penny on this system is zero because he spent a large sum on and has never used it. I might as well ask him to invest in Enron stock, or kick the football with Lucy holding it. I'm crystal clear that the C4 hardware is great, and that it can work, but the fact is it hasn't and the frustration is valid. What C4 should do for me, and the OP, and everyone who is in the same boat, is allow me to open a "rescue case" -- then C4 coordinates with installers to get it working and get the software updated -- and they should do that for zero or nominal cost -- and (more importantly) zero frustrations or risk. If you think asking for a minimal cost rescue is not reasonable, you aren't thinking from the perspective of somebody who spent a ton of money and has never used the system. You also are not thinking from a business perspective for C4. If C4 offered rescues, then faith among the many customers in the same situation would be restored, word of mouth would not be horrible, and customers will look at expanding automation instead of being tempted to set it on fire every time they walk past it.


----------



## ezlotogura

pjp said:


> Yes, I contacted C4 and they were helpful and professional. They helped recover the password on the C4 customer account and they provided some guidance so I could resolve the network issues and restore the static IP addresses. The cable company had recently replaced the router with a modem/router and lost the the static addresses in the process (these are the kinds of things that can happen that aren't C4's fault at all, but that was only done in the last 6 months and C4 hadn't worked for years). After restoring the network static routes, I can see all the C4 devices on the network, but none of the zones work. C4 said I needed to pick an installer and register it on my account and then take let them take it from there.
> 
> *The "current state of the union"*: The network is correct, all the hardware is online, the original C4 programming is still in place and probably 95% correct, the 5.1 zone will at least change volume on the AVR with SR-250 remote , the 4 "music only" zones don't work. The SR-250 remote itself I find very unintuitive even for me, with a long history of complex remote programming, and it is far less intuitive to the rest of the family. If the SR-250 was the only control device, I wouldn't even think about bothering to get it running again, but now C4 has the smartphone/tablet app, which is a huge benefit and that gives me hope that it will be worthwhile resuscitating it. C4 told me I need the C4 software updated before I can use the app (confiremed by my attempt to use it). I'm told the C4 update radically improves and simplifies streaming, which is also welcome (we currently have a C4 streaming device that is apparently no longer needed).
> 
> *What C4 needs to fix*: C4 helped me get the system ready to be resuscitated, but I'm on my own to find an installer to get it working. That's where they are falling short for a system that essentially never worked. Now I'm left on my own to find a dealer. The old dealer was horrible and the quote I got from another dealer was outrageous. My brother-in-law is beyond fed up -- for good reason -- his appetite to spend even another penny on this system is zero because he spent a large sum on and has never used it. I might as well ask him to invest in Enron stock, or kick the football with Lucy holding it. I'm crystal clear that the C4 hardware is great, and that it can work, but the fact is it hasn't and the frustration is valid. What C4 should do for me, and the OP, and everyone who is in the same boat, is allow me to open a "rescue case" -- the C4 coordinates with installers to get it working and get the software updated -- and they should do that for zero or nominal cost -- and (more importantly) zero frustrations or risk. If you think asking for a minimal cost rescue is not reasonable, you aren't thinking from the perspective of somebody who spent a ton of money and has never used the system. You also are not thinking from a business perspective for C4. If C4 offered rescues, then faith among the many customers in the same situation would be restored, word of mouth would not be horrible, and customers will look at expanding automation instead of being tempted to set it on fire every time they walk past it.


The SR250 is fairly easy when programmed properly - Watch > {Insert source}. my wife and mother in law figured it out, so that's my test that its easy to figure out. The music only zones may not work because of wiring, programming, changing of IP addresses once you got the network set back up, etc. Too many variables and I think some of those were addressed in your post/thread specifically about your issues where several people (as well as C4) came out to assist.

You reached out to C4 directly and they were more than helpful with getting you a resolution. Did your brother reach out to C4 back when the install was done? If so they just said Sorry and closed the door on him? It is hard to come back months/years later and complain and as for a resolution. Again I've seen cases where when the install was going bad C4 did step in. If you come back 2 years later and say oh heck its been awful I didn't like my original installer, well, that is a bit too late. Everyone could do that for a "free tune up" so to speak.

Software updated - be careful there, some software updates can make older hardware obsolete. The nice thing is C4 keeps older OS support along for the ride for years, so you do not have to be on the latest and greatest.


----------



## pjp

ezlotogura said:


> The SR250 is fairly easy when programmed properly - Watch > {Insert source}. my wife and mother in law figured it out, so that's my test that its easy to figure out. The music only zones may not work because of wiring, programming, changing of IP addresses once you got the network set back up, etc. Too many variables and I think some of those were addressed in your post/thread specifically about your issues where several people (as well as C4) came out to assist.
> 
> You reached out to C4 directly and they were more than helpful with getting you a resolution. Did your brother reach out to C4 back when the install was done? If so they just said Sorry and closed the door on him? It is hard to come back months/years later and complain and as for a resolution. Again I've seen cases where when the install was going bad C4 did step in. If you come back 2 years later and say oh heck its been awful I didn't like my original installer, well, that is a bit too late. Everyone could do that for a "free tune up" so to speak.
> 
> Software updated - be careful there, some software updates can make older hardware obsolete. The nice thing is C4 keeps older OS support along for the ride for years, so you do not have to be on the latest and greatest.


The SR-250 might be more intuitive when I can hear the things working, but I haven't ever seen it work. I just look at the screen and think "I guess it's supposed to be playing zone 1 now". If I heard it, it might make more sense to me. I know the SR-250 won't be intuitive to the family, but the iPhone/tablet app would be great -- they would understand that in a heartbeat from what I've seen.

C4 answered my questions, but they told me to pick a dealer in order to get anything done. I need to be rescued with C4 providing a "Calgo take me away" solution, then I'll have faith in using a dealer for maintenance. 

I prefer to keep the old software, but I have no choice but to update it because the app only works with the latest software. I tried downloading the older app ("Control4 for OS2" instead of "Control4 for OS3") to see if it would work, but it won't connect.


----------



## ezlotogura

pjp said:


> The SR-250 might be more intuitive when I can hear the things working, but I haven't ever seen it work. I just look at the screen and think "I guess it's supposed to be playing zone 1 now". If I heard it, it might make more sense to me. I know the SR-250 won't be intuitive to the family, but the iPhone/tablet app would be great -- they would understand that in a heartbeat from what I've seen.
> 
> C4 answered my questions, but they told me to pick a dealer in order to get anything done. I need to be rescued with C4 providing a "Calgo take me away" solution, then I'll have faith in using a dealer for maintenance.
> 
> I prefer to keep the old software, but I have no choice but to update it because the app only works with the latest software. I tried downloading the older app ("Control4 for OS2" instead of "Control4 for OS3") to see if it would work, but it won't connect.


you are confusing OS2 vs OS3. OS2 is basically firmware 2.10.6 or lower and OS is 3.0 (brand new, so no 3.1 or higher yet). so it depends what OS is on the controller. If its a 2+ year old system and you have not had a tech over in years, its impossible to be on OS3. OS3 was released in May I think, its very new.

Re: the C4 app, yeah its great, but any app is awful for TV viewing. Who can channel surf using their iphone? Just my two cents. A good wand remote is required hardware, be it C4, Savant, Harmony/logitech, etc.

Again - when your brother had issues during the install and was not pleased, did he contact c4? You had issues and they resolved it but how can they be expected to resolve a he said/she said issue from years ago that was not reported to them?


----------



## pjp

ezlotogura said:


> you are confusing OS2 vs OS3. OS2 is basically firmware 2.10.6 or lower and OS is 3.0 (brand new, so no 3.1 or higher yet). so it depends what OS is on the controller. If its a 2+ year old system and you have not had a tech over in years, its impossible to be on OS3. OS3 was released in May I think, its very new.


The version of software currently on our C4 equipment will not work with C4 app. That was what C4 told me. I tried loading both apps just to try it, but neither works, so what C4 told me was correct. I don't know what versions, I just know we definitely can't use the app with the current version.



ezlotogura said:


> Re: the C4 app, yeah its great, but any app is awful for TV viewing. Who can channel surf using their iphone? Just my two cents. A good wand remote is required hardware, be it C4, Savant, Harmony/logitech, etc.


I'm with you on that, personally. I despise touchscreen remotes, but people (like both of us) who are experienced with smart remotes, have trouble seeing the perspective of those who aren't AV techies. The RS-250 will not be intuitive to the family. I am certain of that. I'll probably use the RS-250, but the rest of the family will use the app. They were excited when I showed them the app, they were confused when I showed them the remote.



ezlotogura said:


> Again - when your brother had issues during the install and was not pleased, did he contact c4? You had issues and they resolved it but how can they be expected to resolve a he said/she said issue from years ago that was not reported to them?


It's a vacation home, so we are not there frequently. We had guests and renters who would try to use it and it wouldn't work. The property manager would have the installers come out and fix it, but it was broken shortly after if it ever worked at all. Unfortunately, we couldn't see most of it first hand. But we are there once or twice a year and it has never worked. When we tried to have a new dealer take it over, the quote was $1100 just to get an already complete configutation working again.


----------



## ezlotogura

pjp said:


> The version of software currently on our C4 equipment will not work with C4 app. That was what C4 told me. I tried loading both apps just to try it, but neither works, so what C4 told me was correct. I don't know what versions, I just know we definitely can't use the app with the current version.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with you on that, personally. I despise touchscreen remotes, but people (like both of us) who are experienced with smart remotes, have trouble seeing the perspective of those who aren't AV techies. The RS-250 will not be intuitive to the family. I am certain of that. I'll probably use the RS-250, but the rest of the family will use the app. They were excited when I showed them the app, they were confused when I showed them the remote.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a vacation home, so we are not there frequently. We had guests and renters who would try to use it and it wouldn't work. The property manager would have the installers come out and fix it, but it was broken shortly after if it ever worked at all. Unfortunately, we couldn't see most of it first hand. But we are there once or twice a year and it has never worked. When we tried to have a new dealer take it over, the quote was $1100 just to get an already complete configutation working again.


Log into customer.control4.com 
click on "my account" on the top kind right off the center then click my system. It should have "My controller" with a name, then 3 lines under, activated date, checked in date and smart home OS - what does it say under Smart Home OS? I find it VERY hard to believe the app will not work with your system without an update. I've been with C4 since before 2.5.3 (5+ years) and each OS was available via the app. One thing to note - the app works for free only on your home network (wifi or VPN). If you want to use it without VPN off your network (mobile data or someone else's wifi) you need to pay for 4sight which is $99/year. So maybe that is why they said you were not eligible as you are not paying for 4sight.

the SR250 is not a touch screen remote, its a basic remote with up/down arrows for volume/channels, numerical buttons to select channels, a previous button to toggle back and forth and the 4 color buttons to match most cable/telco colored buttons. You can also have soft keys you can program to do other things as well. Its a normal wand remote control. You press Watch > {Insert source} and start watching tv. in fact people complain on the c4forums that is too plain jane and not techie enough. I have to be honest, I am confused how a properly programmed SR250 remote is considered too techy?

Unfortunately it seems like no one got with C4 during the messy install. I am fairly sure they would have provided support at that time. To come back a few years later is a bit too late as people could take advantage of that situation. It is what it is.

I know in other posts of yours I suggested reaching out to a few remote dealers - they can do a quick assessment and give you a cost well below the $s you are tossing out there to get you back up and running properly.


----------



## smoothtlk

David Haddad said:


> That's very believable.
> 
> 
> Some people can't just enjoy what they own, they need to convince themselves others buying something more expensive are being ripped off. The PC guy who is convinced everyone who owns Apple is "paying for marketing", or the Linux guy who is convinced both the PC and Apple guys are idiots.
> 
> This forum has had such characters predicting the demise of these companies going back well over 20 years. Except 20 years ago it was their PC based system running $100 software that could do everything the "over priced dead end systems" do. I just did a search on same and the first post that came was this hilarious and purposely sarcastic 2007 post.
> 
> 
> Some things never change.


ah yes, that post brings back memories.
That was more about two PC based automation products than it ever was about Crestron. And, both of those PC based systems still are working well. What was referenced as "MainLobby" is now "myServer". CQC is still CQC. And yes, both have replaced C4 and a few Crestron systems in both residential and commercial installations.

What was taken out of context is the "out of the box" vs. the "custom" installations. Mainlobby / myServer software installs so it works with default capability and a default user interface out of the box similar to, but with more capability than what a "smartthings hub" does out of the box. Multizone music, lighting, climate control, movie catalog and launch, etc. Once that is working in a given installation, then one can "customize" the obvious things like naming of zones. Or one can modify the default user interface to completely customize it similar to what a Crestron system can do (well beyond what one can do with Control4). Adding a floorplan view is an example of that customization. Certainly no two project floorplans and device placement is the same. This does take time (We take typically 8 hours for most custom jobs if you are used to the design tools). It can take a novice much more time dependent on their skills.

We know the hours because unlike C4 we uniquely offer programming / customization of myServer as a service to assist our Dealers and DIY'rs. So it's not "thousands of hours" as the CQC fan loosely throws out.

I believe CQC is similar capability but I don't think that CQC software installs with any out of the box capability - at least it didn't back in those days....and that was the point that was being debated but never resolved or challenged. Intentional obfuscation by the CQC fan club I believe.

David, I believe you are very entrenched with Crestron, who makes a great product. I have enjoyed looking at some of your job photos. Very impressive.

Back to the C4 discussion...


----------



## pjp

ezlotogura said:


> Log into customer.control4.com
> click on "my account" on the top kind right off the center then click my system. It should have "My controller" with a name, then 3 lines under, activated date, checked in date and smart home OS - what does it say under Smart Home OS? I find it VERY hard to believe the app will not work with your system without an update. I've been with C4 since before 2.5.3 (5+ years) and each OS was available via the app. One thing to note - the app works for free only on your home network (wifi or VPN). If you want to use it without VPN off your network (mobile data or someone else's wifi) you need to pay for 4sight which is $99/year. So maybe that is why they said you were not eligible as you are not paying for 4sight.


All it says when I log in is: "Smart Home OS2 (update available)". It does not show the version. The Control4 support person could see the version and this is what he said (cut & paste from his email): _"Once you get your account login taken care of you still wont be able to use the iPhone app. Your controller is running software from 2014 that is not compatible with the current 64Bit apps. Your controller is capable of running our current version of software and just needs to be updated by a Control4 dealer. You can click here to go to our Find a Smart Home Pro site. It will let you search out the other dealers in your area."_ 




ezlotogura said:


> the SR250 is not a touch screen remote, its a basic remote with up/down arrows for volume/channels, numerical buttons to select channels, a previous button to toggle back and forth and the 4 color buttons to match most cable/telco colored buttons. You can also have soft keys you can program to do other things as well. Its a normal wand remote control. You press Watch > {Insert source} and start watching tv. in fact people complain on the c4forums that is too plain jane and not techie enough. I have to be honest, I am confused how a properly programmed SR250 remote is considered too techy?


I know the SR250 is not a touchscreen. That's why I agree, generally, that wand remotes are better and I would personally rather use a wand remote than the touchscreen. The problem isn't that the SR-250 it's too techie for non-techies, it's just too cryptic. Red/green/yellow/blue hot buttons may be ok if you use it every day and the assignments are fresh in your head, but for a vacation home where you are there once or twice a year, or where you have visitors or renters, remembering what those buttons do or figuring out what they do (for first time visitor when nobody is there to guide them) isn't user friendly or intuitive. The app will be much better even if it is more cumbersome.



ezlotogura said:


> Unfortunately it seems like no one got with C4 during the messy install. I am fairly sure they would have provided support at that time. To come back a few years later is a bit too late as people could take advantage of that situation. It is what it is.


The situation wasn't helped by the fact that it was a vacation home. They did what they could do when they were there, they had the installer out multiple times and it didn't work. They are non-technical, so it was impossible for them to get anything done or to know they should have reached out to C4 -- they bought a system with many components, they had no idea whether the problem was the Denon receiver, or the TV, or the cable box, etc. When I went with them to meet with the installer the following year's visit, they didn't have records of the installation (the guy who installed it had left the company), and when we went back next time we visited a year later, they exited the business. C4 can see that it hasn't worked since 2016, they told me that on the phone. They know the installer didn't know what they were doing and that they no longer do C4 installs. It's pretty clear to C4 what happened. No games being played, just an expensive system that never worked.



ezlotogura said:


> I know in other posts of yours I suggested reaching out to a few remote dealers - they can do a quick assessment and give you a cost well below the $s you are tossing out there to get you back up and running properly.


I emailed one contact and received an immediate "thank you for your inquiry" email back, but never heard from him.


----------



## ezlotogura

pjp said:


> The version of software currently on our C4 equipment will not work with C4 app. That was what C4 told me. I tried loading both apps just to try it, but neither works, so what C4 told me was correct. I don't know what versions, I just know we definitely can't use the app with the current version.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with you on that, personally. I despise touchscreen remotes, but people (like both of us) who are experienced with smart remotes, have trouble seeing the perspective of those who aren't AV techies. The RS-250 will not be intuitive to the family. I am certain of that. I'll probably use the RS-250, but the rest of the family will use the app. They were excited when I showed them the app, they were confused when I showed them the remote.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a vacation home, so we are not there frequently. We had guests and renters who would try to use it and it wouldn't work. The property manager would have the installers come out and fix it, but it was broken shortly after if it ever worked at all. Unfortunately, we couldn't see most of it first hand. But we are there once or twice a year and it has never worked. When we tried to have a new dealer take it over, the quote was $1100 just to get an already complete configutation working again.





pjp said:


> All it says when I log in is: "Smart Home OS2 (update available)". It does not show the version. The Control4 support person could see the version and this is what he said (cut & paste from his email): _"Once you get your account login taken care of you still wont be able to use the iPhone app. Your controller is running software from 2014 that is not compatible with the current 64Bit apps. Your controller is capable of running our current version of software and just needs to be updated by a Control4 dealer. You can click here to go to our Find a Smart Home Pro site. It will let you search out the other dealers in your area."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know the SR250 is not a touchscreen. That's why I agree, generally, that wand remotes are better and I would personally rather use a wand remote than the touchscreen. The problem isn't that the SR-250 it's too techie for non-techies, it's just too cryptic. Red/green/yellow/blue hot buttons may be ok if you use it every day and the assignments are fresh in your head, but for a vacation home where you are there once or twice a year, or where you have visitors or renters, remembering what those buttons do or figuring out what they do (for first time visitor when nobody is there to guide them) isn't user friendly or intuitive. The app will be much better even if it is more cumbersome.
> 
> 
> 
> The situation wasn't helped by the fact that it was a vacation home. They did what they could do when they were there, they had the installer out multiple times and it didn't work. They are non-technical, so it was impossible for them to get anything done or to know they should have reached out to C4 -- they bought a system with many components, they had no idea whether the problem was the Denon receiver, or the TV, or the cable box, etc. When I went with them to meet with the installer the following year's visit, they didn't have records of the installation (the guy who installed it had left the company), and when we went back next time we visited a year later, they exited the business. C4 can see that it hasn't worked since 2016, they told me that on the phone. They know the installer didn't know what they were doing and that they no longer do C4 installs. It's pretty clear to C4 what happened. No games being played, just an expensive system that never worked.
> 
> 
> 
> I emailed one contact and received an immediate "thank you for your inquiry" email back, but never heard from him.


What you are saying about the OS is on the main page of the customer portal - did you click through the sub menus per the step by step instructions I gave you? OS2 is anything from 2.0 to 2.10.6 - dozens of possibilities. Please click through. Log into customer.control4.com 
click on "my account" on the top kind right off the center then click my system. It should have "My controller" with a name, then 3 lines under, activated date, checked in date and smart home OS - what does it say under Smart Home OS?

re the red/blue/green/yellow buttons - it maps to the same color buttons on the cable box remote! Usually its for DVR functions like delete a recording, or add it to a recording list. The TV on screen GUI will tell you what the buttons do. Every cable box is different. If you removed C4, and just used the Dish/Cablebox/Telco provided remote it would have those 3-4 colored buttons too - are those too techy? I am not trying to be rude, I think just think you are over complicating things.
https://www.cabletv.com/blog/how-to-program-directv-remote - that is a random directtv remote I found online in 2 seconds, it has the 4 color buttons too - is that remote too techie? What's the difference? Trust me, trying to help, not be condescending. 

For the last point I won't keep hammering it home, complaining 5 years later about a poor install is not C4's fault. so I'll just let that one go. If you contacted them in real time I am sure it would have been a different outcome. I only mention that so others reading this thread, if they experience massive issues during an install because of an incompetent dealer, they can get some recourse.


----------



## pjp

ezlotogura said:


> What you are saying about the OS is on the main page of the customer portal - did you click through the sub menus per the step by step instructions I gave you? OS2 is anything from 2.0 to 2.10.6 - dozens of possibilities. Please click through. Log into customer.control4.com
> click on "my account" on the top kind right off the center then click my system. It should have "My controller" with a name, then 3 lines under, activated date, checked in date and smart home OS - what does it say under Smart Home OS?


Sorry -- I saw the 3 status lines on the home screen and thought that was it, so I kind of glossed over your exact instructions. The OS version 2.5.3.




ezlotogura said:


> re the red/blue/green/yellow buttons - it maps to the same color buttons on the cable box remote! Usually its for DVR functions like delete a recording, or add it to a recording list. The TV on screen GUI will tell you what the buttons do. Every cable box is different. If you removed C4, and just used the Dish/Cablebox/Telco provided remote it would have those 3-4 colored buttons too - are those too techy? I am not trying to be rude, I think just think you are over complicating things.
> https://www.cabletv.com/blog/how-to-program-directv-remote - that is a random directtv remote I found online in 2 seconds, it has the 4 color buttons too - is that remote too techie? What's the difference? Trust me, trying to help, not be condescending.


It's not too techie, it's too cryptic. Those colored buttons are very far from universal. Comcast doesn't have them at all. I've never used color buttons on anything and I've set up a huge number of systems for friends and families on smart remotes. Buttons labeled "info" "guide" ... are intuitive, or buttons you can label anything you want are intuitive but color buttons you have to memorize or press to see what happens are not. The remotes I use have smart buttons that can be labelled and change context based upon function. A smart remote should do more than just replicate cable (or whatever device you are using) buttons. On our home remote, I added a "Sleep" button (for the TV) and "Fan Power" and "Fan Oscillate" (for a tower fan in the room) that do exactly what they say. It's on the home screen and everybody gets what they do because they are very clearly labeled. It doesn't matter what I can learn, if you can't teach it to your wife, or mother-in-law, it's not an intuitive solution. 

To be clear, I'm not here to trash the C4 remote at all -- I only brought it up to clarify why getting the app working was important. I'm not here to trash the C4 remote, or C4 at all. I've stated their hardware is fine and I've pointed out that things like network changes can cause problems and those changes have nothing to do with C4.



ezlotogura said:


> For the last point I won't keep hammering it home, complaining 5 years later about a poor install is not C4's fault. so I'll just let that one go. If you contacted them in real time I am sure it would have been a different outcome. I only mention that so others reading this thread, if they experience massive issues during an install because of an incompetent dealer, they can get some recourse.


The only reason I am in this thread is to offer C4 constructive advice. My story, and the OP's, and Bryan's story are not unique, at all. I would never come into somebody else's thread and take it over to help my own case -- I'm trying to put meat on the bone of issues that C4 should address. All of you can blame bad dealers all you want, but when you have a product that is totally useless (


----------



## ezlotogura

pjp said:


> Sorry -- I saw the 3 status lines on the home screen and thought that was it, so I kind of glossed over your exact instructions. The OS version 2.5.3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not too techie, it's too cryptic. Those colored buttons are very far from universal. Comcast doesn't have them at all. I've never used color buttons on anything and I've set up a huge number of systems for friends and families on smart remotes. Buttons labeled "info" "guide" ... are intuitive, or buttons you can label anything you want are intuitive but color buttons are not. The remotes I use have smart buttons that can be labelled and change context based upon function. A smart remote should do more than just replicate cable (or whatever device you are using) buttons. On our home remote, I added a "Sleep" button and "Fan Power" and "Fan Oscillate" (for a tower fan in the room) that do exactly what they say. It's on the home screen and everybody gets what they do because they are very clearly labeled. It doesn't matter what I can learn, if you can't teach it to your wife, or mother-in-law, it's not an intuitive solution.
> 
> To be clear, I'm not here to trash the C4 remote at all -- I only brought it up to clarify why getting the app working was important. I'm not here to trash the C4 remote, or C4 at all. I've stated their hardware is fine and I've pointed out that things like network changes can cause problems and those changes have nothing to do with C4.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll answer this separately later today when I have time. The only reason I am in this thread is to offer C4 constructive advice. My story, and the OP's, and Bryan's story are not unique, at all. I would never come into somebody else's thread and take it over to help my own case -- I'm trying to put meat on the bone of issues that C4 should address. All of you can blame bad dealers all you want, but when you have a product that is totally useless on its own without a successful dealer install, the company that sells that product has a far, far greater responsibility to ensure dealers are competent and efficient -- and they should be there to pick up the pieces when things were never worked.


Comcast uses A, B, C and D buttons https://www.xfinity.com/support/remotes/. Some use 4 colors, some use A-D. So A-D may be intuitive to you, to me its the colors, but its all the same thing, the SR250 is mapped so likely Red is A, Blue is B etc (just made that up but you can see exactly how its mapped in the property drivers). on the comcast UI there are points where it says press A. Like if you are doing VOD, A may be to agree/accept to rent a movie, I don't know because I do not have comcast. Basically 99% of the platforms out there have colors or A-D type buttons. And the C4 remote has an info button, a back button, a DVR button, etc. So those standard ones are on the SR 250 and clearly labeled. And if you do not use any buttons that come on the SR 250 you can program them to do something else of your liking.

2.5.3 works with the C4 app labeled OS2. A few pointers:
1) the first time you log in you have to be on the local wifi network
2) it will only work on the local wifi network unless you pay for the yearly 4sight subscription plan
3) check your customer.control4.com portal to make sure you are not blocking your device or blocking the ability to add new devices. Lastly I think there is a cap on like 10 device or something so make sure you are not at the cap

There was also a certification patch that impacted the version of Composer HE and things on the controller needed a patch as well as updating your Composer HE software. If your Controller was offline for a long period of time it may not have received that patch. That patch should take a few seconds, but it does not require a full system OS upgrade.

2.5.3 is stable enough that a dealer should be able to get you up and running in no time. You can see how it performs and what you like and use the system a bit. If you have an HC800 (or a newer EA controller which I doubt) you could upgrade to OS 3 but if you have an HC250 or any legacy touchscreens (not the T3) you cannot upgrade. Personally, given your issues in the past, get 2.5.3 working and live with it for a while. If it is a guest house, no need to bump up to OS3.

And if you contact C4 in real time during an issue install, they will help. That is all I am trying to say. Hard to cry over spilled milk from 4-5 years ago. I empathize with you 100%, but just trying to help you move forward and let people know currently if they have issues during the install, call C4 directly. They will send out a regional manager to supervise and get another tech in there if needed.


----------



## pjp

ezlotogura said:


> Comcast uses A, B, C and D buttons https://www.xfinity.com/support/remotes/. Some use 4 colors, some use A-D. So A-D may be intuitive to you, to me its the colors, but its all the same thing, the SR250 is mapped so likely Red is A, Blue is B etc (just made that up but you can see exactly how its mapped in the property drivers). on the comcast UI there are points where it says press A. Like if you are doing VOD, A may be to agree/accept to rent a movie, I don't know because I do not have comcast. Basically 99% of the platforms out there have colors or A-D type buttons. And the C4 remote has an info button, a back button, a DVR button, etc. So those standard ones are on the SR 250 and clearly labeled. And if you do not use any buttons that come on the SR 250 you can program them to do something else of your liking.
> 
> 2.5.3 works with the C4 app labeled OS2. A few pointers:
> 1) the first time you log in you have to be on the local wifi network
> 2) it will only work on the local wifi network unless you pay for the yearly 4sight subscription plan
> 3) check your customer.control4.com portal to make sure you are not blocking your device or blocking the ability to add new devices. Lastly I think there is a cap on like 10 device or something so make sure you are not at the cap
> 
> There was also a certification patch that impacted the version of Composer HE and things on the controller needed a patch as well as updating your Composer HE software. If your Controller was offline for a long period of time it may not have received that patch. That patch should take a few seconds, but it does not require a full system OS upgrade.



Great info on the software, I will try that next time I'm there. I was on the local WiFi, and I was definitely 10 devices below the 10-device cap , so that wasn't the problem. The controller was definitely online after I restored the static routing in July, can't tell if it got the auto update or not.



ezlotogura said:


> And if you contact C4 in real time during an issue install, they will help. That is all I am trying to say. Hard to cry over spilled milk from 4-5 years ago. I empathize with you 100%, but just trying to help you move forward and let people know currently if they have issues during the install, call C4 directly. They will send out a regional manager to supervise and get another tech in there if needed.


A good chunk of C4's customer base is totally non-technical when it comes to A/V. They just want to write a large check and have an amazing system work. Techies would probably favor a DYI system like Harmony so they can control it. For non-technical people, like my brother-in-law, they didn't buy C4, or choose C4, or even know there was a thing called C4 in their system. They just bought an entire audio/video system from a dealer that included 20ish speakers in many different rooms, an AVR, several TV's, Cable boxes, a network router, blu-ray players, etc. When it doesn't work, they don't have any idea what is wrong. There is a bunch of stuff they can see (cable box, AVR, router, TV's, Blu-ray) and they don't know which of those is broken. The one thing that *doesn't* come to mind to a non-techie is C4, because they don't even know it's there or what it is, it's internal plumbing that is identified by 3 line items in an equipment list of 75 items. The don't what C4 is because it's the only thing they can't see and touch, except for the remote, which has a barely readable black-on-black logo text on the bottom of the remote. To say that a non-technical person looking at this sea of equipment should be able to narrow it down to 3 line items of C4 on a huge list of equipment, and then call them directly to rescue them, is to not understand the non-technical customer viewpoint at all. If C4 did a customer satisfaction inquiry or survey after every install, then they could proactively identify disasters and correct them. To expect the non-technical customers to narrow down the root problem, to internal plumbing that is lost in a sea of equipment, is not realistic for non-technical customers.


----------



## ezlotogura

pjp said:


> Great info, I will try that next time I'm there. I was on the local WiFi, and I was definitely 10 devices below the 10-device cap , so that wasn't the problem. The controller was definitely online after I restored the static routing in July, can't tell if it got the auto update or not.
> 
> 
> 
> A good chunk of C4's customer base is totally non-technical when it comes to A/V. They just want to write a large check and have an amazing system work. Techies would probably favor a DYI system like Harmony so they can control it. For non-technical people, like my brother-in-law, they didn't buy C4, or choose C4, or even know there was a thing called C4 in their system. They just bought an entire audio/video system from a dealer that included 20ish speakers in many different rooms, an AVR, several TV's, Cable boxes, a network router, blu-ray players, etc. When it doesn't work, they don't have any idea what is wrong. There is a bunch of stuff they can see (cable box, AVR, router, TV's, Blu-ray) and they don't know which of those is broken. The one thing that *doesn't* come to mind to a non-techie is C4, because they don't even know it's there or what it is, it's internal plumbing that is identified by 3 line items in an equipment list of 75 items. The don't what C4 is because it's the only thing they can't see and touch, except for the remote, which has a barely readable black-on-black logo text on the bottom of the remote. To say that a non-technical person looking at this sea of equipment should be able to narrow it down to 3 line items of C4 on a huge list of equipment, and then call them directly to rescue them, is to not understand the non-technical customer viewpoint at all. If C4 did a customer satisfaction inquiry or survey after every install, then they could proactively identify disasters and correct them. To expect the non-technical customers to narrow down the root problem, to internal plumbing that is lost in a sea of equipment, is not realistic for non-technical customers.


Though I agree with the last part, I am shocked that someone has 20 zone speaker system, TVs, AVRs, etc and has zero idea from a proposal standpoint, a design standpoint, etc how it all ties together. I am not here to put down your brother but someone is asleep at the wheel. I agree high net worth people want to write a check to get the job done, but I would assume they know WHY they are writing the check and what they are getting. They may not know serial drivers from IR drivers but to invest in that sort of work and have no idea? Great example - I just did a big home renovation project and my siding was Hardie siding. I could not stick a siding board on my house to save my life. But we had an issue with the install, so we called Hardie and they sent out someone to fix it. done and done. I knew it was Hardie. I did not write a check to Hardie though.


----------



## pjp

ezlotogura said:


> Though I agree with the last part, I am shocked that someone has 20 zone speaker system, TVs, AVRs, etc and has zero idea from a proposal standpoint, a design standpoint, etc how it all ties together. I am not here to put down your brother but someone is asleep at the wheel. I agree high net worth people want to write a check to get the job done, but I would assume they know WHY they are writing the check and what they are getting. I agree high net worth people want to write a check to get the job done, but I would assume they know WHY they are writing the check and what they are getting.


This is a large chunk of C4's customer base, probably the majority. They were probably in Singapore when they ordered the system in Scottsdale. They negotiated on price, but there's no point in them scrutinizing the equipment list because they have no opinion on any of it. If you are an AV junkie, you would look over everything and optimize every component. If not, you have to trust the installer because you don't add anything to the decision process. To clarify, it's 20ish speakers over 5 zones (20 zones would be pretty crazy). In high end outsourcing, you shouldn't need to know the details and you often don't want to know the details. C4 should understand their customer base and they should ensure that every install is perfect, and be there for them proactively if not.


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## ezlotogura

pjp said:


> This is a large chunk of C4's customer base, probably the majority. They were probably in Singapore when they ordered the system in Scottsdale. They negotiated on price, but there's no point in them scrutinizing the equipment list because they have no opinion on any of it. If you are an AV junkie, you would look over everything and optimize every component. If not, you have to trust the installer because you don't add anything to the decision process. To clarify, it's 20ish speakers over 5 zones (20 zones would be pretty crazy). In high end outsourcing, you shouldn't need to know the details and you often don't want to know the details. C4 should understand their customer base and they should ensure that every install is perfect, and be there for them proactively if not.


It is and we are going in a spiral with our feelings. If you contact C4 during a botched install they are more than likely to help as I've seen several cases where they did step in to right a wrong.

Oh and I know they would not scrutinize the list but the installer would have to say we are going to deliver X, Y and Z functionality using A, B and C product. Rich people get rich because they are smart with their money, not because they just write checks blindly and hope for good end results. Again they may not know a dual voice coil speaker from a mono speaker but they should see - hey I want speakers in 5 zones, I talked the dealer about 5 zones, and I see that (or do not see) that here on the proposal. And if they ask "how do i play pandora, tidal, deezer, whatever" the dealer should say "oh that is through your Control4 system" or through "sonos", etc. Heck if it was sonos they used, he could have reached out to Sonos, troubleshooting would have led to the discovery of a C4 system, and then he would know to contact C4. The fact that he had previous log ins with C4 based on your other thread shows he knew C4 as a platform was involved somehow. Your other thread mentioned he forgot what email he used to create the account with C4. No need to nitpick and its all in the past. I think C4 knows their user base. They basically grew quarter over quarter while they were listed as a public company and a P/E firm purchased them at like a 30-40% premium over their trading price at the time. 

Like most things online, you read horror stories - people rarely go online for fun to praise something, they go online to vent. and what I love about this site, 95% of the OP's NEVER COME BACK. You came back for help, and I think you got a ton of help to move you in the right direction. So someone comes on her, rants and moves on. Who knows how legit/viable those complaints are in the big picture. Like someone who complained about C4 not providing him TV when the cable was out but he wanted a DIY system {scratch my head and end my rant  }


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## bryantc

@ezlotogura if you are not getting checks from C4 you really should be.


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## pjp

ezlotogura said:


> It is and we are going in a spiral with our feelings. If you contact C4 during a botched install they are more than likely to help as I've seen several cases where they did step in to right a wrong.
> 
> Oh and I know they would not scrutinize the list but the installer would have to say we are going to deliver X, Y and Z functionality using A, B and C product. Rich people get rich because they are smart with their money, not because they just write checks blindly and hope for good end results. Again they may not know a dual voice coil speaker from a mono speaker but they should see - hey I want speakers in 5 zones, I talked the dealer about 5 zones, and I see that (or do not see) that here on the proposal. And if they ask "how do i play pandora, tidal, deezer, whatever" the dealer should say "oh that is through your Control4 system" or through "sonos", etc. Heck if it was sonos they used, he could have reached out to Sonos, troubleshooting would have led to the discovery of a C4 system, and then he would know to contact C4. The fact that he had previous log ins with C4 based on your other thread shows he knew C4 as a platform was involved somehow. Your other thread mentioned he forgot what email he used to create the account with C4. No need to nitpick and its all in the past. I think C4 knows their user base. They basically grew quarter over quarter while they were listed as a public company and a P/E firm purchased them at like a 30-40% premium over their trading price at the time.
> 
> Like most things online, you read horror stories - people rarely go online for fun to praise something, they go online to vent. and what I love about this site, 95% of the OP's NEVER COME BACK. You came back for help, and I think you got a ton of help to move you in the right direction. So someone comes on her, rants and moves on. Who knows how legit/viable those complaints are in the big picture. Like someone who complained about C4 not providing him TV when the cable was out but he wanted a DIY system {scratch my head and end my rant  }


Their real estate agent spec'ed out the system as he had done many times because he represented high-end rentals and prepped them for that. He created a laundry list for the house, and his spec was far better than what my brother-in-law could have created because he would not have known what to ask for. It was plain vanilla with nothing exotic - 5.1 in the ceiling for the main TV's, something like 4 speakers in a separate zone over the kitchen, ... 

He never created a login or had anything to do with C4. The installer created the account for them based on the email address filed with the paperwork. When we had C4 recover the email address for the account, it was his wife's email address, which he would have never used for anything he created (and his wife certainly wouldn't have used it). His wife handled the payment, it was her email on the paperwork, so that's what the installer used on their behalf. They had no idea there was an account.

They were smart to have somebody who had a lot of experience spec the system, especially since they knew nothing about creating a whole-house system. There requirements spec was done entirely appropriately for the entire house, and they did negotiate price. They didn't waste money on what they bought, they were smart to outsource requirements to someone with experience, it just didn't work.

Does C4 do satisfaction surveys after installs? If so, they didn't get one. If not, why not?


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## ezlotogura

bryantc said:


> @ezlotogura if you are not getting checks from C4 you really should be.


nope - just an end user. I did make some money off their stock though so I will not complain. I am here to just clear up falsehoods that's all.

Look C4 has its warts and issues and I will not fight those. Examples - there is a flaw in the backlighting design of their lighting kit - that said they did start to create/send out a different sensor bar and it its like an 80% improvement. Until the release of OS3, their UI was WAY outdated especially at a premium price tag. They were way behind in doorstation technology until recently. And sometimes they decommission hardware to prevent upgrades - for instance recently with OS3 you could run the project on an HC800 with some limitations but an HC250 has to be completely removed - why? they were released at the same time - couldn't they find a way to just allow an HC250 to be used to repeat a zigbee signal and maybe be used for extra IR's/Serial ports, etc? And yes, its not 100% DIY so an techie site like AVSForum will not be very friendly towards C4 because its not the target audience here. 

So maybe now I'll be off the payroll for pointing out these shortcomings!


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## ezlotogura

pjp said:


> Their real estate agent spec'ed out the system as he had done many times because he represented high-end rentals and prepped them for that. He created a laundry list for the house, and his spec was far better than what my brother-in-law could have created because he would not have known what to ask for. It was plain vanilla with nothing exotic - 5.1 in the ceiling for the main TV's, something like 4 speakers in a separate zone over the kitchen, ...
> 
> He never created a login or had anything to do with C4. The installer created the account for them based on the email address filed with the paperwork. When we had C4 recover the email address for the account, it was his wife's email address, which he would have never used for anything he created (and his wife certainly wouldn't have used it). His wife handled the payment, it was her email on the paperwork, so that's what the installer used on their behalf. They had no idea there was an account.
> 
> They were smart to have somebody who had a lot of experience spec the system, especially since they knew nothing about creating a whole-house system. There requirements spec was done entirely appropriately for the entire house, and they did negotiate price. They didn't waste money on what they bought, they were smart to outsource requirements to someone with experience, it just didn't work.
> 
> Does C4 do satisfaction surveys after installs? If so, they didn't get one. If not, why not?


I do not work for c4, I have no idea if they survey after an install. Though as a home owner with c4 for 5+ years, I believe I have gotten 1-2 surveys from them, just not sure at what time point. There is a setting to opt in/out of that type of communication in your customer portal. How do you delineate when the install is completed? I am still working on my system 5 years later. Also like it or not, C4's customer is the dealer, not the end user. People hate to hear that, but its true. And that is something that wrinkles your feathers and as an end user, I feel that too, but I knew that when I got involved.

Red Flag - real estate agent specing out a home automation system? I just went through a full home renovation project - 3 bathroom updates, created 1 new bathroom, brand new kitchen, etc, basically gutted the house. I did not have my real estate agent spec out my new window layout or where I was putting my kitchen counter. Why would a real estate agent offer such a service and how are they qualified? I am not sure the agent was smart enough to design it properly or hand the proper spec over to the automation firm. Something is amiss there.

Again I feel sorry for your brother but I'd never take a real estate agent's advice on anything - they are always out to get you! Even in the sale of the home they want you to pay as much as possible yet they should be representing you, so go figure. But that is just my opinion of real estate agents (and btw I am in sales, so I do not loathe all sales people - just kitchen appliance sales, furniture sales and real estate agents!)


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## Ms. Rich

Matt Stultz said:


> I have been a hostage of Control4 for the past 7 years. This is a dealer-focused system, meaning you will have to pay for everything little quirk that occurs because you have to be Einstein in order to do anything yourself. My nightmare included a company in the Phoenix Area called Independent Electric who was a Control 4 dealer. They managed to convince me to spend over $10k on all the equipment and stuff so I could watch TV and listen to music anywhere in my house. After their horrendous installation in my equipment closet (it literally had cords bunched up with equipment on top of the cords) i continued to spend hundreds if not thousands more for every little item that went wrong. The best part is that they abandoned me and I had to find a new dealer and that guy just loved to charge $150/hr for learning about my equipment. Trust me...Control4 is the absolute worst system you can purchase. Right now, I cannot operate any of my TV's because for some reason, Control 4 does not have an internet connection. I will be ripping every item from the POS company out next week and using my AppleTV instead.


Run as fast as you can from Control 4 and the dealer!


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## JustJay_TX

Defcon said:


> Control4 is above my pay grade and I don't own anything with that feature or anything bought from a dealer, but from what I've seen over last few years, the home assistants like Alexa/Google Home and HDME CEC have basically made all these systems including universal remotes, Harmony, Control4 etc redundant.
> 
> I can use my voice to turn on and off my tv, receiver, bluray player with a single command, control features, change inputs etc. Any remote works with other devices using CEC. I don't have smart lights etc but all those can be linked together in routines.
> 
> All of this needed NO other expense or equipment, its all built in and keeps improving with software updates. Why do people need more? Or rather, what else does Control4 offer?


Funny I just found the laughable thread: It is always hilarious to read these "discussions" when people have no idea what they are talking about. "de(a)fcon", Harmony is a remote, Control4 is a Automation system. Alexa/Google, #1 "learning: a command structure is a pain in the a** and when your relatives/friends are around, do you have a phrasing list of commands? Because if you don't "speak it" correctly, nothing happens! #2 Hope your internet is not down, because then they won't operate without being able to run your voice command thru their servers and back down to your devices. So yes, I agree that true home automation is above your "pay-grade", because all your are speaking of is "Media Control"...Not "Automation".


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## JustJay_TX

bryantc said:


> These analogies aren't even remotely relevant. Plumbing and AC are install it and forget it systems. You never need to worry about them again until they break.
> 
> 
> Home automation by its very nature is something that you are going to constantly tweak and add to (not to mention its going to break down a lot more than other systems in your house too). Having to constantly go thru a dealer for this is not something most people are going to want.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes there are people who will gladly pay to have someone else do everything for them. Just like there are people who pay to have someone "install" a new TV for them. These people aren't very likely to be posting on online forums though.


As you may know by now, Control4 isn't going anywhere. And I have seen plenty of DIY installed TV's....correction, I have FIXED many DIY installed TV's. Home Automation isn't for everybody, but just because you are a "have not", doesn't mean there is something wrong with it. If a car dealership screws up maintenance on your car, do you blame the manufacturer?? NO you don't, you blame the dealership, same here. Unfortunately there are some dealers that do crap work, so it's not fair to blame all the dealers that do great work and command a price that is on par with the level of service and quality they provide. The OP had a bad experience with the dealer he went with, not his fault, but again not "Control4's fault" either. 
You have no reasonable experience to judge whether an analogy is relevant or not, because you by your very limited knowledge are "irrelevant".


----------



## JustJay_TX

Matt Stultz said:


> I have been a hostage of Control4 for the past 7 years. This is a dealer-focused system, meaning you will have to pay for everything little quirk that occurs because you have to be Einstein in order to do anything yourself. My nightmare included a company in the Phoenix Area called Independent Electric who was a Control 4 dealer. They managed to convince me to spend over $10k on all the equipment and stuff so I could watch TV and listen to music anywhere in my house. After their horrendous installation in my equipment closet (it literally had cords bunched up with equipment on top of the cords) i continued to spend hundreds if not thousands more for every little item that went wrong. The best part is that they abandoned me and I had to find a new dealer and that guy just loved to charge $150/hr for learning about my equipment. Trust me...Control4 is the absolute worst system you can purchase. Right now, I cannot operate any of my TV's because for some reason, Control 4 does not have an internet connection. I will be ripping every item from the POS company out next week and using my AppleTV instead.


Matt, a lot of time has passed since you originally posted this. If you haven't ripped your system out, there is a Control4 Advocate program for clients in your position. It really sucks that the dealer your had took advantage of you, I have actually helped a few people that had them as their installation company. But Control4 really will help you with this type of issue, I've done Crestron, Crontrol4, Savant, and AMX. When installed correctly and thoroughly tested, it's a rock solid system. It's what I installed for my 80+ year old parents to make their life easier. Sorry your experience was so atypically bad.


----------



## Defcon

JustJay_TX said:


> Funny I just found the laughable thread: It is always hilarious to read these "discussions" when people have no idea what they are talking about. "de(a)fcon", Harmony is a remote, Control4 is a Automation system. Alexa/Google, #1 "learning: a command structure is a pain in the a** and when your relatives/friends are around, do you have a phrasing list of commands? Because if you don't "speak it" correctly, nothing happens! #2 Hope your internet is not down, because then they won't operate without being able to run your voice command thru their servers and back down to your devices. So yes, I agree that true home automation is above your "pay-grade", because all your are speaking of is "Media Control"...Not "Automation".


There is no need to be so rude. I am well aware that these solutions have their own use cases, which is why they have a market. But automation is also possible using other means, there have been apps that allow you to script routines that work over wifi/serial/IR etc using much less expensive hardware. And the gap will only close. Remember how 5+ years ago you had to buy addon modules for your amp/receiver to enable things that are all built into the cheapest models now. Technology is the great equalizer.


----------



## markrubin

I see technology making things worse, not better....ARC, CEC, HDMI were introduced to make the process simpler....they have failed in implementing it properly in my opinion: it is an embarrassment to the industry
Would you buy a car that required a third party to make it work, and could be disabled remotely?
I have seen readership double or triple here on AVS and attribute much of it to folks buying a HT setup and needing third party help just to hook it up: it is a big mess and seems to be getting worse.
sorry that is the way I see it....not just a C4 problem, an Industry failure.


----------



## funky54

Well I read the entire thread. This isn’t in any way a C4 issue. It’s like owning or buying a jet to do amazing things and then getting upset because it isn’t great at hauling gravel or pulling your boat. Getting angry because your needs are hauling gravel and then not knowing how to maintain the jet.. so lets bash a product on a forum and act like we know what we’re talking about because we watched a Cnet review and a YouTube clip.

Alexa turn on channel 12, Alexa turn to channel 13, Alexia turn to channel 14…. Alexa turn off the blue ray player, Alexia turn on watch cable tv, Alexa turn on channel 13, Alexa turn off the living room light, Alexa turn off the kitchen light, Alexa close the family room shades, Alexa turn down the AC to 74 degrees, Alexa….. yeah pretty simple and superior. Or pick up remote and press “movie time”


----------



## ClearestBlue

I have a home automation system (RTI, not C4). I did it because I wanted a home theater installed quickly and didn’t have time at that particular moment to research every single thing (which I generally like to do). I’m a DIY guy in general, but like I said, this time I went automation. Is it working well? Yes. Do I wish I could tinker with it? Of course. C’est la vie.

But I have to push back against this idea that only these dealer-controlled systems can truly “automate”. The consumer-driven ecosystems are developing RAPIDLY. Every single thing in that early thread example (my housekeeper pushes one button and the door unlocks and the music starts and blah blah blah) can now be done with Alexa/Google/HomeKit with a simple use of the IFTTT app or website. There are probably other ways as well.

And I had to chime in because the last post mentions a magical “movie time” command that is the province of control4. I have specifically seen that exact command be used with Siri and an iPhone. Lights dim to specific brightness level, movie starts, etc. You could also say “pre show” and have the lights go to a different setting, the projector warm up, the amplifier fire, etc.

Control 4, Savant, RTI aren’t going away any time soon, no. That’s as much to do with all the existing dealers in the field, who are effectively salesman (no offense intended). But those companies can’t compete with the innovation capabilities of Google, Apple, or Amazon, and it’s only a matter of time before the automation market share of the dealer-model companies shrinks to peanuts. I’d give them a decade more of viability. As soon as another company steps in to take the place of Phillips Harmony, the benefits of the C4/RTI remotes will be gone as well.


----------



## eatenbacktolife

RTI is sold through distribution, with no buy in (currently afaik.) If you want to tinker with your RTI system, the bar to entry isn't exactly very high.

I personally find people installing microphones all over their house for these giant, unethical, absolute garbage tech companies to be out of their ****ing minds.


----------



## ClearestBlue

eatenbacktolife said:


> RTI is sold through distribution, with no buy in (currently afaik.) If you want to tinker with your RTI system, the bar to entry isn't exactly very high.


When I glanced at their website, it seems like you have to register (and be approved) as a functioning company to gain access to the forums/database of drivers/software, etc.


----------



## ezlotogura

ClearestBlue said:


> I have a home automation system (RTI, not C4). I did it because I wanted a home theater installed quickly and didn’t have time at that particular moment to research every single thing (which I generally like to do). I’m a DIY guy in general, but like I said, this time I went automation. Is it working well? Yes. Do I wish I could tinker with it? Of course. C’est la vie.
> 
> But I have to push back against this idea that only these dealer-controlled systems can truly “automate”. The consumer-driven ecosystems are developing RAPIDLY. Every single thing in that early thread example (my housekeeper pushes one button and the door unlocks and the music starts and blah blah blah) can now be done with Alexa/Google/HomeKit with a simple use of the IFTTT app or website. There are probably other ways as well.
> 
> And I had to chime in because the last post mentions a magical “movie time” command that is the province of control4. I have specifically seen that exact command be used with Siri and an iPhone. Lights dim to specific brightness level, movie starts, etc. You could also say “pre show” and have the lights go to a different setting, the projector warm up, the amplifier fire, etc.
> 
> Control 4, Savant, RTI aren’t going away any time soon, no. That’s as much to do with all the existing dealers in the field, who are effectively salesman (no offense intended). But those companies can’t compete with the innovation capabilities of Google, Apple, or Amazon, and it’s only a matter of time before the automation market share of the dealer-model companies shrinks to peanuts. I’d give them a decade more of viability. As soon as another company steps in to take the place of Phillips Harmony, the benefits of the C4/RTI remotes will be gone as well.


Alexa/Google/Homekit/IFTTT give you some DIY options but:
1) limited support > when APIs change you are usually in the dust (maybe short term, maybe long term)
2) limited options > I doubt there are 1,000's of TVs you can control with IFTTT or Homekit out of the box or if you want music you'll have to use Sonos and cannot use Heos or Russound or something else or if you want "move time" you must use Lutron blinds and couldn't use QMotion or Rollease
3) dependency on the cloud (security, latency, up time, etc)


Also don't forget, this is AVSForum where people are DIY by nature and we think everyone is like "us". I recently saw C4 has almost 400,000 installs and there are like 500 people signed up to their Discord Channel and c4forums.com has maybe 200 active users. So we are talking fractional % of their overall user base is looking for a DIY solution.

there really is not a right vs wrong way, it is what suits the user at the end of the day. But I'll still say if you are going to do a full home for 1 app + automation (not control) then C4/Savant/RTI/Crestron etc are still more robust compared to IFTTT/Alexa/HomeKit, etc. If you want to DIY it, want to use more limited hardware, and have an easier set up and do the updates/troubleshooting you can get most of the features using those platforms.


----------



## eatenbacktolife

ClearestBlue said:


> When I glanced at their website, it seems like you have to register (and be approved) as a functioning company to gain access to the forums/database of drivers/software, etc.


Functioning company can be as simple or as difficult as your state makes it. Is it worth it to update some images on your control system? Probably not. Doing your whole 3000 sqft house and ultimately want control over the process is another thing...


----------



## sbarnesvta

ClearestBlue said:


> When I glanced at their website, it seems like you have to register (and be approved) as a functioning company to gain access to the forums/database of drivers/software, etc.


RTI doesn't actually sell direct to dealers, you register with a distributor (most only require a business license), then you tell them you want to buy RTI product, they send you the onboarding paperwork to register with RTI, then RTI once they have approved you (I have never heard of them not approving a company), they will set you up with dealer log ins for training and software access.


----------



## cricket9998

FYI, Home Assistant is free, open source, and really easy to automate. It runs literally everything from automating the theater, acting as a remote for every device, and controlling the rest of the house. Control4 has a really nice looking remote, but the fact that I, as a power user, can't even attempt to add a new device, is just a complete non-starter. Its a real shame customers will be locked into this ecosystem and have to pay someone to program their remote each time they change something.


----------



## smoothtlk

cricket9998 said:


> FYI, Home Assistant is free, open source, and really easy to automate. It runs literally everything from automating the theater, acting as a remote for every device, and controlling the rest of the house. Control4 has a really nice looking remote, but the fact that I, as a power user, can't even attempt to add a new device, is just a complete non-starter. Its a real shame customers will be locked into this ecosystem and have to pay someone to program their remote each time they change something.


FYI, Allonis's new soon to be released SmartRemote should work with HomeAssistant as well (with myServer in the middle).


----------



## GRIMMACE

cricket9998 said:


> FYI, Home Assistant is free, open source, and really easy to automate. It runs literally everything from automating the theater, acting as a remote for every device, and controlling the rest of the house. Control4 has a really nice looking remote, but the fact that I, as a power user, can't even attempt to add a new device, is just a complete non-starter. Its a real shame customers will be locked into this ecosystem and have to pay someone to program their remote each time they change something.


Home Assistant really is awesome if you're willing to put in the time. I built my dashboard for Home Assistant based on the control 4 layout. This is my theater dashboard. Touch any of the icons and a popup with all the buttons for the device appears. Harmony hub sitting in the middle. The extra activities icon is for testing


----------



## ClearestBlue

This is awesome. What is the device you’re using as a touchscreen?


----------



## GRIMMACE

ClearestBlue said:


> This is awesome. What is the device you’re using as a touchscreen?


I'm using an ipad and an iphone as there is a native app for home assistant but you can use really any up to date touch screen device that can open a webpage. It takes a bit of time to get everything set up the way you like but its all customizable to your liking. For example I had to create all of those icons you see for the devices.


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## cricket9998

GRIMMACE said:


> Home Assistant really is awesome if you're willing to put in the time. I built my dashboard for Home Assistant based on the control 4 layout. This is my theater dashboard. Touch any of the icons and a popup with all the buttons for the device appears. Harmony hub sitting in the middle. The extra activities icon is for testing


That looks cool. How did you get the pop up menus and what theme are you using?


----------



## GRIMMACE

cricket9998 said:


> That looks cool. How did you get the pop up menus and what theme are you using?


Default theme. Here is an example of the Activities popup. You would have to format this properly for yaml but it will get you going if you wanted to take a shot at it. It uses custom stack in a card, broswer mod popup, and custom tiles cards

type: custom:stack-in-card
card_mod:
style: |
ha-card {
--ha-card-header-color: white;
--ha-card-header-font-size: 18px;
text-align: center;
background: none;
box-shadow: none;
}
title: Activities
title_align: center
cards:
- type: picture
tap_action:
action: call-service
service: browser_mod.popup
service_data:
title: Activities
large: false
card:
card_settings:
background: var(--paper-card-background-color)
column_width: calc(97%/1)
columns: 1
row_height: 75px
text_size: 20px
title: Activities
title_align: center
entities:
- data:
activity: '20090415'
entity_id: remote.harmony_hub
icon:
value: /local/icons/tivo_icons/watchtv.ico
label_sec:
row: 2
value: WatchTv
service: remote.turn_on
global_settings:
border:
color:
value: black
radius: 5px
size: 3px
icon:
color:
value: white
label_sec:
color:
value: white
shadow: 'elevation: 6dp'
type: custom:tiles-card
image: /local/harmony1.png


----------



## Nick V

I'm a C4 Dealer, Insaller & Programmer.

I hate to say, but most of the people on AVS are not necessarily the target demographic.

It's mostly for more affluent people (it's just the reality of the cost), who typically don't know their way around designing, installing and setting up electronics and home technology devices. They don't want 6 different apps on their phone to control the various DIY trinkets in their "smart home". They generally just want their system to function intuitively without having to do any of the product research and figuring out what products work within what ecosystem.


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## wombats

Another annoyed customer here. I bought a home that happened to have an HC250 and SR-260 remote hooked up to control lighting and volume, and a few minimal AVR capabilities. Worked great, but I wanted to hook it up to control my projector (replaced the previous one) and maybe do some additional AVR control beyond just volume and input selection.

I find the HC250 is owned by someone else. Not even the previous owners. So I take over the registration and try to configure the system again. Registration successful. The web interface gives me no way to configure anything from what I can tell. The phone app doesn't give me any way to configure anything. I haven't tried the Windows client yet. Would that give me access to configure everything? The remote is completely non-functional now. I can't find any documentation about how to reset and configure it because even the documentation is behind the dealer login.

I'm not paying a dealer to do this. I'll just replace the whole system if I have to. Why don't they just give me access to all the configuration and settings? Proprietary systems are just the worst.

Is there any way I can get access to the settings I need to make this work on my own, or is it just permanently locked behind a dealer login now?


----------



## Nick V

wombats said:


> Another annoyed customer here. I bought a home that happened to have an HC250 and SR-260 remote hooked up to control lighting and volume, and a few minimal AVR capabilities. Worked great, but I wanted to hook it up to control my projector (replaced the previous one) and maybe do some additional AVR control beyond just volume and input selection.
> 
> I find the HC250 is owned by someone else. Not even the previous owners. So I take over the registration and try to configure the system again. Registration successful. The web interface gives me no way to configure anything from what I can tell. The phone app doesn't give me any way to configure anything. I haven't tried the Windows client yet. Would that give me access to configure everything? The remote is completely non-functional now. I can't find any documentation about how to reset and configure it because even the documentation is behind the dealer login.
> 
> I'm not paying a dealer to do this. I'll just replace the whole system if I have to. Why don't they just give me access to all the configuration and settings? Proprietary systems are just the worst.
> 
> Is there any way I can get access to the settings I need to make this work on my own, or is it just permanently locked behind a dealer login now?


It's NOT a DIY system, your comlaint doesn't make much sense as you'd be in the exact same boat with Crestron or Savant. 

Either you can find a reputable local company to take over the project and fix the issues or if you're a little more savvy, you can get in contact with a good remote programmer and you can do the physical hooking up of whatever IP / IR / HDMi cables that need to be connected to the new gear and have them do the programming and fix the programming on the rest of the house. Most people would recommend an upgrade to the EA or now the Core series of controllers.


----------



## cricket9998

Nick V said:


> It's NOT a DIY system, your comlaint doesn't make much sense as you'd be in the exact same boat with Crestron or Savant.
> 
> Either you can find a reputable local company to take over the project and fix the issues or if you're a little more savvy, you can get in contact with a good remote programmer and you can do the physical hooking up of whatever IP / IR / HDMi cables that need to be connected to the new gear and have them do the programming and fix the programming on the rest of the house. Most people would recommend an upgrade to the EA or now the Core series of controllers.


His complaint makes a lot of sense and it’s exactly why control4 sucks. He didn’t buy the system, he didn’t choose to use it, but now their product is worthless without him paying someone to push some buttons.


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## thebland

The complaint, to me, makes no sense. He bought the house with a dated, proprietary control system in place. Either you pay to activate it, or you tear it out and do it yourself. Complaining about Control 4's business model is a lesson in madness. Their business is their business. The homeowner has a choice to use or not.

However, the control box (HC250) is likely 8-10 years old and retailed for $750. The remote $250. Personally, I wouldn't pay for a 10 year old controls system either. But Control 4's business model is well known and industry standard for these custom control systems.

Tear it out...!


----------



## eatenbacktolife

Usually once you take possession anything left in the house is yours, unless the contract specifies otherwise. So I would say he did "buy" the system.

As mentioned it was working until he decided to start messing with it.

I also don't really consider anyone a customer or client if they inherit something that has been out of warranty for like 8 years. If I buy a house with a 15 year old roof, I ain't a customer of the roofing company that did it no matter how many times I ask to speak to the manager.

These companies don't offer any support to the end user or sell directly as they would never be able to support it. The dealers and their employees installing this stuff hardly know how to make it work, supporting end users would be impossible. The only real alternatives seem to be open source and have the community around for support. 

I can't speak for C4 - but 8-10 year old equipment with RTI or Crestron isn't completely out of date and still usable.

From what I know, there's home composer or something for C4 (dont know if it works with your equipment) so maybe getting a remote installer to fix it and going with that might be the way to go. Or just rip it out and DIY it. Like everything it depends. If you bought a 750k house and don't want to pay a couple hundo $ to fix this - more power to you.


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## markrubin

I agree it is not just a C4 issue: to me it is an industry problem that should be addressed: most programmers do not want to take on an old system and try to fix someone else’s poor install. Look for a control system YOU have control over without having to be beholding to a third party and their whims.
Imagine if you bought an automobile that had to be programmed/reprogrammed by a third party: it is shameful that the industry works this way


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## avs.phil

Some of us want 3rd party automobile programmers to make it go faster  
One time i stayed at Aria LV and they have C4 in every room (about 4000 rooms and add more rooms in their next door buildings on the same resort). It was so fun having motorized curtains and lights that know when they need to be on and also time to dim or be off etc. So i looked up C4 after returning home and promptly got a sticker shock lol


----------



## eatenbacktolife

Cars aren't a great example. Plenty use rolling encryption etc to lock ECUs to vehicles. Replacing stuff might require ECU programming, which means going to the dealership, finding a 3rd party or spending 20k on the tool to DIY it, like if you want to DIY the clutch on your lambo. An OBD scanner can tell you what's wrong, but cars are loaded with encrypted ECUs that most can not DIY and require sending it off to a 3rd party or the dealer.


----------



## Nick V

The car analogy is actually a decent one for the sake of comparison. We're not talking Kias and Hondas here. A C4 system would be analogous to Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, etc... Those generally have high inherent maintenance costs and C4 isn't much different.

A more direct comparison would be HVAC and plumbing or IT. They generally charge very high minimum fees even to come out and diagnose an issue, nevermind the cost of the repair. It's up to the dealer to make it clear that there are inherent costs involved in updating and managing the system (obviously not possible in the case where the home that you purchase has a C4 system, but lack of proper research isn't a good excuse either).

Anyone that works in a large office settings knows that IT is always performing routine planned maintenance. No different if you want to keep up with all the OS updates, firmware updates, network troubleshooting, etc.. It's not for everyone, but it certainly is what it is.


----------



## cricket9998

Nick V said:


> The car analogy is actually a decent one for the sake of comparison. We're not talking Kias and Hondas here. A C4 system would be analogous to Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, etc... Those generally have high inherent maintenance costs and C4 isn't much different.
> 
> A more direct comparison would be HVAC and plumbing or IT. They generally charge very high minimum fees even to come out and diagnose an issue, nevermind the cost of the repair. It's up to the dealer to make it clear that there are inherent costs involved in updating and managing the system (obviously not possible in the case where the home that you purchase has a C4 system, but lack of proper research isn't a good excuse either).
> 
> Anyone that works in a large office settings knows that IT is always performing routine planned maintenance. No different if you want to keep up with all the OS updates, firmware updates, network troubleshooting, etc.. It's not for everyone, but it certainly is what it is.


I guess it’s true but at least with hvac you do have the ability to tinker even if you can mess it up.. that’s still your choice. It would be nice if at least C4 provided a way for him to even pay to use their system. Like I get the business model but they should at least openly admit they lock it out to artificially generate revenue.


----------



## smoothtlk

cricket9998 said:


> I guess it’s true but at least with hvac you do have the ability to tinker even if you can mess it up.. that’s still your choice. It would be nice if at least C4 provided a way for him to even pay to use their system. Like I get the business model but they should at least openly admit they lock it out to artificially generate revenue.


C4 doesn't "Lock it out".
They require an authorized (and trained) dealer to install hardware on the system. Advanced DIY'rs can also do system configuration once you get the software to do that. But it's a large learning curve.
It's just more comprehensive and therefore complicated for a typical homeowner to successfully program so they have trained dealers in the middle to do that.


----------



## ezlotogura

A few thoughts to some of the recent comments:
1) HC250 is 10 years old, was released in 2012. It can still work up to the latest OS2 release but does not work on OS3 because there was a major shift (I think from Flash to Android) and the chip/architecture and a few other things did not make sense for them to support HC250 moving to OS3. Will the HC250 still work under OS2, yes it will. Was it working for the poster until he swapped hardware, yes it was, it was working as designed given the drivers installed for the hardware that was in place

2) As mentioned, it is a dealer system, that makes it "the worst" to you, but it is not the worst system, that is how it is designed and sold. As someone mentioned with a roof, if there is a leak on a house you just purchased you aren't going after GAF who made the shingles, nor would the installer from 15 years ago do a repair for free because you just purchased a house. Is a Lamborghini Huracan a "bad car" because it is not designed to work in snow or tow 7500 lbs? Control4 is designed/sold as a dealer system. That's it.

3) composer home edition lets you program and can get very complex programmed completed, but it does not let you add hardware, create/add/change bindings, etc. so in this case, the user still needs a dealer

4) www.c4forums.com has a whole sub section for remote dealers. sounds like if you can do the wiring on your end, the dealer can get the HC250 up and running remotely with the new equipment probably in 30-60 minutes and it would cost more to rip it out and replace it all versus just paying that 30-60 mins of labor charges


----------



## Brad24

Just want to point out that the Google and Amazon's of the world are good but they have limitations in capability, also if your power or internet go down your DIY smart home stops working because 90+% of off the shelf smart devices require an internet connection for most if not all functions. Where on the other hand C4 and Crestron etc. Are good also and can usually function almost if not completely without internet and many setups will have backup power in case main grid power goes out. That being said there are pros and cons to every system and product etc. There are two thing I think need to be remembered one they do similar but not always or completely they say things and two the capability, reliability etc. Is different For the most part I would think of it like this the DIY off the shelf stuff is consumer/prosumer level And the crestron, C4. Lutron etc. Are the commercial/business/industry level Again similar but not identical And some would say well I don't need commercial products and that's true you as a consumer could just use consumer level options but remember that doesn't mean that either option is better then the other, the were made to work in different ways and scenarios. Also food for thought nest is great I was an early adopter now my gaurd can't even be replaced because google bought nest and made the decision to stop selling the gaurd after running out of the stock in the nest warehouses, plus everytime my internet goes down all voice/smart features go down/stop working since they can't talk to google,nest,Amazon etc. Servers but I still think for what I paid and what there supposed to do etc. Their great but I also recognize that there not in the same category/league as dedicated whole home wired systems like C4 But that's just my opinion


----------



## tonystoys

cricket9998 said:


> I guess it’s true but at least with hvac you do have the ability to tinker even if you can mess it up.. that’s still your choice. It would be nice if at least C4 provided a way for him to even pay to use their system. Like I get the business model but they should at least openly admit they lock it out to artificially generate revenue.


this is not correct as there are business's that make revenue via 3rd party drivers and they support there product independently of control4. 
I certainly would not let any HVAC guys touch my C4 system........... you would be the dumbest person on the planet and to even think you are empling that the two are remotely equal is insane!
there are small dealers and remote dealers that are happy to help a customer. keep in mind that they are usually highly trained and/or have years of experience in general tech. 
I have about one of the coolest project as far as "custom" to my house/routines and that takes hours and hours of programming. which cost money, Ive been programming C4 for 15 yrs and still novice as I dont do it everyday! Even if I did do it everyday I dont know more then what I can see in a program, there is code behide every click. If you cant write the code you can only think around it and how you think it should react... trial and error

added note: crestron training says that your 1st project is expected to be 40hrs+ after training. that was 20yrs ago and they still use most of the same programs. lol


----------



## bryantc

Brad24 said:


> plus everytime my internet goes down


What kind of internet do you have and how often is it going down? My internet is the most reliable out of all my utilities. It's never gone down other than when they were working on a local line. My electricity has gone out more. I think we've reached a point where losing internet is not something we have to worry about anymore than losing power or water.


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## Scoots78

Those who complain about how Control4 is “locked down” are not their target clients… at all

In general, people who have C4 like that their system is managed by someone else(assuming they’re competent) they like technology, like using it, like the convenience it brings but just want to use it, not deal with its learning curves for setup or searching for answers if something doesn’t work properly 

If you like to tinker, look elsewhere


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