# THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries



## KenTech

_[NOTE: A regularly-updated *Table of Contents* follows this Introductory article]_

*01 - INTRODUCTION*


Following is a continuing series of short articles about the Sony service codes and what they do. (Comments, additions, corrections, and discussion welcome!) No one has yet come up with an official source for the detailed code descriptions, although the charts that are available from the service manuals are a big help, especially in understanding the relationships among some of the codes. Where there is speculation involved, I'll try to be fairly open about my thought processes so some sort of informal peer review can take place in this forum. I am an engineer and scientist by trade and with decades of experience, and I feel quite fearless to try anything that makes sense. I hope I can contribute some insight - or at least the results of some my reckless experimentation!


I own a fairly new Sony 36XS955, plus a decent Toshiba SD3950 DVD player, really good SHVS decks from JVC and Mitsubishi, and clear reception of HDTV in the Portland, OR, area from an attic antenna (UHF, $25 from Radio Shack). I am using the latest Digital Video Essentials (DVE) DVD, the single disk for DVD-NTSC. I have a good eye for color from lots of experience setting up to graphic artists' computer monitors, working in digital photo-editing, and enjoying color photography as a once-semi-business, now hobby. I enjoy a bit of an obsessive-compulsive streak that has served me well in most things.


I have made such substantial improvements to my TV that I can't imagine others not wanting to do the same. Some of these settings were brain-damaged out of the box (black level!), and others evidenced little insight or care in their initial settings (color temp, corner color purity, centering). The picture modes other than Pro can be hijacked for your own purposes for different setting-groups or suites that suit *you.* I have no need for Vivid, for example, so it's open for repurposing. The Picture Modes are just groups of settings and can be made all identical, if you wish, then altered to suit different purposes. If you write down the original settings or have a decent chart for your set, then the original settings - should you ever wish to return - won't be lost. Clear thinking and an aptitude for fussy detail are required, however, and the undisciplined or impulsive (you know who you are!) may wish to avoid any of this.


The purpose is to share what I *think* I have deduced or know first-hand about the codes and to stimulate others to contribute to these threads with additions, questions, and clarifications. While experimenting, it is possible to gain sudden insight into how these settings relate to one another, test it out, then comment publicly, to everyone's benefit.


Others have contributed generously to this discussion already. Let's keep this discussion lighthearted, clearheaded, and free from fearmongering. The risks of tinkering are not nearly so great as some would have you believe.


Mild rant: It's my strong opinion that the following CAUTIONS are mandatory:


HAVE AVAILABLE at least one copy of the service-data chart for a TV similar or identical to yours. These charts, derived from Sony's own data, are indispensable for seeing the relationships among the settings that interact and their relationships to the various operational modes. Some settings, for example, simply point to columns elsewhere in the code tables, and it wouldn't be obvious without the charts.


An aside: The signal- and deflection-processor chips are identical for all of these late-model sets in the HS, XS, and XBR lines of CRT TVs. Its called a CXA2170, and the code groups are named for the processor: 2170P for picture parameters, and 2170D for deflection parameters. Even if the exact factory defualts dont match what your sets exact chart might show, in many cases they are close or are actually identical but thats NOT really why you have the chart. It is to allow you to map those codes to rational concepts. Get a chart; its your road map! If it matches your set, all the better for those default settings. Youre going to pencil-in your initial settings anyway, right? (Same generally goes for the other chips, too.)


ALSO HAVE AVAILABLE the widely-circulating Excel spreadsheet or its PDF equivalent, which lists the service codes and some good commentary and description on what they do. It's not the last word, as it is a work in progress; but it helps a lot by complementing the data charts.


KEEP RECORDS of what you are doing, especially the factory settings before you change them. A notebook with generous penciled notes is a great idea. Or pencil-in numbers directly onto the charts and lists. Whatever works to keep you from burning bridges.


[The attached files are Sony's very useful charts of service data for these TVs.]


*******************************************************
*A TABLE OF CONTENTS FOR THIS FORUM*
_[Currently ends at message #1940, 16 Aug 2006]_


Assume that any link below may be just the _beginning_ of a subject, and that the discussion/responses may continue for many posts to follow. Please PM me with corrections and suggestions. Links are underlined. Attached-file links are indented.

*Forum Pages 1-10 (30 messages per page), Posts #1-300*

01 - INTRODUCTION 

- - hs420 service data chart.pdf 

- - XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf 
Excel Service-Codes Listing 

- - servicecodelisting.zip 
02 - NAVIGATING SERVICE MODE 

- - servmodehelp.zip 
03 - COLOR CALIBRATION AND BLACK LEVEL 
04 - ADJUSTING GAMMA 
05 - CUSTOMIZING PICTURE MODES 
06 - AUTO BRIGHTNESS LIMITING 
07 - DYNAMIC FOCUS 

- - servicecodeslist (34XBR910).pdf 

- - convergencepage.pdf (HS420) 

- - geometrypages.pdf (HS420) 
RE: Dead on Startup + Fix 
08 - SOME USEFUL TEST PATTERNS 

- - converg_geom_test.zip 
FOCUS TEST PATTERNS 

- - focus16by9.zip 

- - focus4by3.zip 
"SPOKES" TEST PATTERN 

- - spokes.zip 
ADJACENT-COLOR TEST PATTERN 

- - adjacentcolors.zip 
CURRENT-GAMMA TEST PATTERN 

- - curr_gamma_test.zip 
09 - GETTING GOOD GRAYSCALE 
10 - "PRESETS" AND RELATED SERVICE CODES 

- - xs955|xbr960 geometry.pdf 

- - xs955 service data.pdf 

- - 34XBR960 service data.pdf 
11 - IMPROVING THE AUDIO 
12 - OPTIMIZING IMAGE DECODING, "SHAPING," AND ENHANCEMENT 

- - Image_Processing_rev1_1.pdf 

- - image_optimizing-pats.zip 
4:3 and 16:9 Focus Test Patterns 

- - focusmatrix_4x3sparse.zip 

- - focusmatrix_16x9sparse.zip 

Convergence-geometry manual pages, XBR960+XS955:

- - xbr960_conv_geom_p1-6.pdf 

- - xbr960_conv_geom_p7-10.pdf 
Comments on convergence, LANDING settings 
Comments on colorimetry and the 6500K standard begin 

- - XS955|XBR960 Block Diagram.pdf 
Ref. to Poynton etc. regarding Gamma and here 
13.1 - PRECISION FOCUSING: ACCESSING THE INTERNAL FOCUS CONTROL 

- - Part1_Figures.zip 
13.2 - PRECISION FOCUSING: A RECOMMENDED PROCEDURE 

- - FocusMatrix_4x3_1080.zip 

- - FocusMatrix_16x9_1080.zip 

- - Part2_Figs_Patterns.zip 
Comment on balancing SBRT, Brightness, and the UBOF settings 
14 - A SERVICE-MODE BUG; THE DVE PLASTIC VIEWING FILTERS 
15 - THE COLOR OF BLACK: OTHER POSSIBLE COLOR ADJUSTMENTS 
The set Color to Min controversy & setting grayscale & offsets begins here 
Color balance vs color push 
Judging color tints & pitfalls 

*Forum Pages 11-20 #301-600*

White screen and color blobs 
White clipping or brightness limiting as it applies to these TVs 
The industry standards diatribe 
More on intensity vs the CRTs capabilities 
Dynamic Picture, Gamma, and the non-Pro modes 

- - The Excel Spreadsheet, ADR version 
Reference to online copy of 34XBR2 service manual 

- - The geometry pages from the above manual (PDF file) 
Intro to internal test patterns and also here 
Wrong method for adjusting overscan! See this caution .
Setting black level for different inputs again (long) 
Geometry-adjustment & magnets, real-world experience 
Bad advice again on height & width adjustments in MID processor (DSperber) . See this caution .

*Forum Pages 21-30, #601-900*

DSperber again on geometry 
KenTech: Refining the image; eliminating ringing & edge enhancement 

- - The referenced chart, latest version (IPChart06Tall.pdf) 
Comments on focusing the tube 
The service-codes charts, again 

- - 34XBR910 Service Menu vADR.zip 

- - XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf 
Warning about warmup changes 
Discussion of MTRX (SD vs HD color matrices) 
Nitewatchman starts his  breathless posts 
Nitewatchman on MS color and MTRX unpredictability 
KenTech on MTRX & service-data charts 

Coring and Limiting in the image processing discussed here and here 
Using the QM test patterns for color calibration 
Argument for DIY adjustment 
Centering the raster and the video frame 
Warning for fast-fingers on remote while in service mode 
HELPFUL NEW CHARTS 

- - GS&ColorCharts04.pdf 

*Forum Pages 31-40, #901-1200*

Using a DVD frame for show-and-tell 

- - Sample frame from Monsters, Inc. 
Cautions on color correction in CXA2171 processor 
A suggestion on using the Picture Modes for experimentation 
Observation on the characteristics of the SYSM settings in 2170P-3 
Observation on the configuring of VM 
More image-processing parameters discussed (ADU) 
here (ADU) and also More on image-processing as a frequency-response matter (several messages) 
More on sharpness and how SM-settings affect it (Napoleon D) 
The HDPT (high-def pass-thru) parameter Is it dangerous? 
Recommendations for small Warm and Cool color offsets and here 
Article: The Neglected CXA-2103 Image Filters and Their Significant Effects on Image Quality and this revision note 
New experiments with the 2103-1 parameters, SSMD and PPHA 

New Image-Processing Codes Chart: IPChart06tall.pdf 
ADU: More on image-detail parameters 
A method of setting LANDING parameters 
Definitive Statement Regarding Phosphor "Lag" (Persistence) 
Article: Tuning the 2103 Processor for the Cleanest, Sharpest Picture 
Article: A New Approach to SYSM=3 Image Processing 
More on what MIDE is all about 
Minor Changes to SYSM=3 Recommendations and "Tuning" the 2103 Chip 
Some clarification about VM (scan-velocity modulation) 
SERVICE-MODE DOCUMENTS & CHARTS REPOST 

- - XS955|XBR960 conv_geom_p1-6.pdf 

- - XS955|XBR960 conv_geom_p7-10.pdf 

- - XS955|XBR960 Service Data.pdf 

*Forum Pages 41-50, #1201-1500*

More on color and its decoding matrix 
BY REQUEST, A FEW CURRENT SETTINGS (KenTech) 
A summary of the internal test patterns 
A source of convergence-correction magnets? (DSperber) 
Service-mode AUDIO settings (and see subsequent posts) and also here 

- - Also see conflicting data tables here 

*Forum Pages 51-60, #1501-1800*

Is the high voltage going to kill you? 
Green or pink blobs that come and go 
HDTV bit depth & standards (Nitewatchman) 
Discussion of how Sony TVs scale the various video inputs (different forum) 
Discussion of what the MID1-MID3 groups do 
RWetmores discovery about setting RDRV~BCUT very high & discussion 
Yet another discussion of white balance and the need for 6500K 
Restatement of Sonys official centering-adjustment method and here 
KenTechs firm position on the 6500K controversy 

- - Useful test pattern for photographing grayscale on-screen: Pluge + ExtremeGray.pdf 
Comment on eyeballing grayscale adjustment and associated rationales 
Test pattern: TRIED-AND-TRUE SELF-REFERENCING GRAYSCALE CALIBRATION 

- - GSLinearityTest2.zip 
Nitewatchman: Long commentary on his grayscale experiments 
Article: MEASURING SCREEN BRIGHTNESS WITH A PHOTO LIGHT METER 

- - Referenced graph for above article in ZIP and PDF formats
Discussion of whether the _CUT settings really affect black level begins 

(OT) KenTech rant about the (measured) low screen brightness in theaters 
Article: EQUIVALENCE OF VARIOUS BLACK-LEVEL ADJUSTMENTS, OFFSETS, AND COLOR CUTOFFS 
Caution about adjusting height in the MID1-3 groups 
Color-cutoff discussion, a question and its resolution 
KenTechs experiments with RWetmores high _CUT settings and here 
RWetmores satisfaction with his grayscale settings 
Using RGBS for isolating the red, green, and blue CRT guns 
The difference between the _DRV and _CUT settings and RYR~GYB 

*Forum Pages 61-70, #1801-2100*

An input-calibration method (Nitewatchman) 
A question: What does 2170P-1/DCOL do (dynamic color)? and a proposed answer .
Discussion of sidebar size, blanking, overscan 
Different experiences with color calibration, especially non-DVD 
A problem with vertical linearity and SD vs HD 
More on dangerous service-mode button combinations 
DVI, HDMI, black level, and bit depth 
Definitions of horizontal and vertical color convergence 
Using a Memory Stick for test patterns 
Success with color-decoder adjustment (bast525) 
What is VON and AKBO? They shut down my TV! and a good comment from another forum here )

 

hs420 service data chart.pdf 141.68359375k . file

 

XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf 405.4189453125k . file


----------



## KenTech

Here is a copy of the widely circulating Excel spreadsheet for a Sony 34XBR910. I've reformatted it as a PDF file so you don't need Excel, but the Excel version is also included.

 

servicecodelisting.zip 168.876953125k . file


----------



## KenTech

*02 - NAVIGATING SERVICE MODE*


First download the attached Zipped file that should explain all: a page describing how to enter Service Mode, and two pictures of how it looks on my 36XS955 (gray background):


THEN: Download the official chart of codes from a previous message, otherwise the relationships among them is hopelessly confusing. Don't worry that it may not match your exact set model. (But it may be way off for earlier-model sets.) This chart seems to be fine for XS and HS-series, for example. Earlier XBRs are not represented.


SUMMARY: First power-off the TV, or start cold. Then press on the remote these four buttons within one second of each other: Display - 5 - Volume Up - Power. You should see a screen similar to "ServModeFirstView.jpg."


The code group-name (e.g. 2170P-4, MID5, etc.) is in the upper-left corner. Below that is the name of the actual code-name within that group. The code-name's number (in the group) is also shown to the right of the group-name. In the "TypDisplay" example attached, 2170P-3 is the group, and we're at item #7, SHF0.


To the right of the 7 is the code's *value.* This one is set to 0 (zero).


The other designations are for information only: "FULL" screen mode, "Video5" is the active input, and "480i" is the video-scan mode. I have never figured out what "WSL: " means; its value changes while you fiddle with Service Mode, so it's readout of some sort, maybe the TV's "mood" at the moment, who knows.


The number-key pair 2-5 are up-down for stepping thru the groups to the first code in each group.


The pair 1-4 are up-down for the codes (spanning groups if you go past the group's end).


The pair 3-6 are up-down for setting the code's value. **Write down the initial value before changing anything.**


You can check out what different code-values do by tinkering -- no harm done. If you decide to back out after screwing things up, you have two choices: (1) press - Enter on the remote, which will re-enter the previous settings from memory; or (2) recycle Power to leave Service Mode, or press Power - Display - 5 - Volume Up - Power to start over in Service Mode. This is safe tinkering, but it's really best to log what you are doing.


If you make a change you want to "stick," press the Mute button (the word "WRITE" appears), then Enter within a few seconds. (WRITE changes to red, then back to SERVICE.) The changes have been written to internal memory. If you hit Mute by accident, it will revert shortly, so don't worry.


There are some aspects of this that can be confusing. If you change some settings, then change inputs or Picture Modes, you'll likely lose the changes -- but sometimes not, so don't assume anything. Some settings are always temporary, such as POP in the MID5 group. You can see the effect of different MID5 settings by changing POP, which then points to a different column in the MID5 table, maybe even change a few items. But if you step past the start or end of the MID5 codes, you lose the POP setting (it goes back to same as 2170P-3, MIDE) and the changes.


Recommended: If you've been tinkering for a while and you've determined a change you want to make in, say, a *few* nearby and related codes, first reset Service Mode with - Enter (as above). Now note the old values, make the changes, and Write them each separately. (By resetting to old values first, you avoid accidental changes while you were previously tinkering.)


CAUTION: AVOID keys 7 and 9, as they are part of a key-sequence that can reset all of the deflection or image-decoding settings back to a "factory-newborn" state. If you think youve hit any key by accident, STOP. In a few seconds it will revert back to SERVICE mode, as youll see at the right side of the screen. All dangerous key-sequences are combinations of *three* keys, by the way.


I have made *very substantial* improvements to the display of my XS955-series set, as have many others with theirs, and I take some delight in experimenting with these codes, trying to deduce what they do. I am posting what I discover as I can, and I hope other folks will, too, as several generous folks already have (thanks!).


[Revised 9-8-05.]

 

servmodehelp.zip 104.2255859375k . file


----------



## KenTech

*03 - COLOR CALIBRATION AND BLACK LEVEL*


Here are some basics of global color-calibration settings, independent of any inputs or modes. This sets background black and the drive and cutoff values for the CRT's 3-color guns. It is basic for color-temperature calibration. My 36XS955 set was *very* far off!


First, clearing any confusion about the relationship among the three Color-Temp settings, Cool, Normal, and Warm: Normal is designed as the fundamental setting in the service mode, and Cool and Warm are settings that are *offset* from Normal, i.e. Cool and Warm are difference, not absolute, settings.


What makes sense to me: Set a correct color temperature of 6500K or White Cloud (my preference) or anything else for Normal. If it is truly neutral and without any green or pink off-color, then Warm and Cool offsets can be set very closely by adding or subtracting about equal amounts of red and yellow from the Normal setting. (Yellow is minus-blue.)


These are all in group 2170P-1. SBRT = black level, and RDRV, GDRV, and BDRV are red, green, and blue drive (gain) settings. RCUT, GCUT, and BCUT are the equivalent cutoff (black) settings. The six Warm and Cool offsets are set with RDOF thru BCOF, with WBSW as a big warm switch (leave at 0) and SBOF as a brightness offset (leave at 7). Use Pro mode to start, as other modes have some dynamic contrast effects going on.


***************

Here is how I proceeded with great results.


NORMAL COLOR. I don't have a color-temp measuring device; I can't justify its expense. But Nature provides a nearly-perfect source for comparison: mid-day white clouds illuminated from the front by sunlight (about 6100K), seen thru an open window or screen, NOT glass. You can twiddle more precisely later, but this is free from green or magenta contamination. Beware of foggy overcast (too cool-blue) or rainy-moist overcast (yellowish). Just the right overcast may do the trick, but you won't really know how cold/warm it is.


Do this in black-and-white: Set the Color slider all the way down to minimum with your remote. You are going for a *perfect* B/W picture. Set Color Temp to Normal. Make your room fairly dim - no artificial light! No green light reflecting into the windows from trees. Make sure you're in Pro mode and stay there.


In each case, **write down the original settings** just for safe-keeping. Log what you're doing!


Set your Brightness and Picture sliders with the remote to 31 (mid-scale). Use Digital Video Essentials or Avia DVD, and use a video-PLUGE pattern or video black on the disk as a decent black standard. Change the code 2170P-1 #5-SBRT to set video-black as the barest screen glow. For PLUGE, follow the DVD's instructions. Black levels for off-air/cable broadcasts are generally complete anarchy, but your local HDTV station or two may broadcast good black. This is only a starting point, but it's okay for now. Write the settings.


Go to code-group 2170P-1. Leave red settings alone. Look out the window at those clouds. Look back at the TV, and set #7-GDRV (green) and #8-BDRV (blue) until the whites are *white* to your eyes. Go between the outdoor view and the TV (big brightness difference, unfortunately) until you get it right. Cycle among your TV channels for different material to verify you're getting it right. Unless you have a color-perception problem, your eyes don't lie: if it looks white, it is white. The clouds calibrate your eyes for a short time.


Now sit in front of the TV, and adjust #10-GCUT (green) and #11-BCUT (blue) until the darkest areas *match* the color of those whites. There is some interaction here, so twiddle until you think you've got it: a really good B/W picture with very few off-color areas. Note that too-bright white areas may develop pinkish or greenish casts from heating of the CRTs aperture-grille wires - a drawback to the big tubes. Lower the Picture setting if that's the case. You should be able to get a B/W display that maintains consistent color from shadows thru highlights.


Make some further refinements while those clouds are still there! The GCUT and BCUT adjustments may have modified the accurate white. Go back and forth a couple of times. Write the settings.


THE OTHER COLOR SETTINGS are determined by the codes #12-WBSW through #19-BCOF. WBSW=1 adds a huge, unknown warm bias to the color, so I don't use it. Leave WBSW set to 0. The offsets are zero (no effect) when the codes are set to 31. Leave SBOF at its original setting.


Change the Color Temp menu-setting with the remote to Warm. Set RDOF to 33, GDOF to 31, and BDOF to 29. Set RCOF to 33, GDOF to 31, and BCOF to 29. Write the settings.


Now change Color Temp to Cool. Set RDOF to 29, GDOF to 31, and BDOF to 33. Change RCOF to 29, GCOF to 31, and BCOF to 33. Write the settings.


These offsets approximate a mild change in color temperature for Warm and Cool, not the useless super-warm and bluish settings my set came with. Sheesh! But use larger offsets if you wish. You can re-do all of this another day, as your wisdom increases, but this should be a huge improvement on the factory settings.


----------



## KenTech

*04 - ADJUSTING GAMMA*


Having adjusted color temp and brightness, another service-code adjustment you can make on these late-model HS/XS/XBR TVs is the image gamma. Even if you don't want to change the gamma presets, it's good to know where they are.


Given a specific black-point and a specific white point, the gamma setting determines how bright the mid-tones are. Without getting into the math, the graph that relates the instantaneous red, green, and blue signals that control the brightness of the spot on the screen is not a straight line, but one with a deep, sunken curve. Gamma is the degree of this curvature: the higher the gamma, the more deeply the line is curved and the darker the mid-tones are.


Consequence of higher gamma = film-like look, brilliant highlights, natural 3-D appearance of contrast-lighted subjects (say, a 3-light setup on a news anchor), less shadow detail, more realism in general, sparkly things (specular highlights) that really sparkle.


Consequence of lower gamma = better shadow detail, but . . . pasty-faced people, lack of sparkle, feeling of flatness in the picture. In other words, the TV look. Outdoor scenes can be really flat. Valuable for lifting subject matter out of murky darkness in troublesome video, however.


Calibrated studio monitors use a gamma = 2.2, but program material varies all over the place. Traditionally TVs have been adjusted at the factory for bright mid-tones and clipped whites - great for store demo and vivid color - but viewers are now seeking more realism with their sophisticated program material. The Pro mode provides that with its maximum gamma.


The Pro picture-mode setting has the highest gamma out of the box, and for most good material I much prefer this to the lower values available in the other picture modes. But sometimes you may want something available for a whacked-out broadcast. I'll deal with customizing the picture modes in a separate article, but here is where the gamma settings are located.


2170P-4 #17 or 11, GAMM is the master setting, with a range of 0-3 for its four possible values. But it's a 2-level system, and GAMM simply points to a column in a table of presets where the *real* gamma values are set. This table is 4 rows and 4 columns. The rows are 2170P-4 #18-21 (or 12-15) GAMS, GAMR, GAMG, and GAMB. So, to be clear, GAMM = 1, for example, means only what the values of GAMS thru GAMS in the 1 column define it to mean. You get to define what each value of GAMM means.


A specific value of GAMM is saved for each of the four picture modes and, for each of those, different input/scan-mode combinations, such as RF, S-video, Compressed 480i (and others), DVI 480i (and others), memory stick, etc. Only the service-data chart will make this clear. Use it as a roadmap. Bottom line: over 50 values of GAMM can be saved for those many combinations (although only a few will likely apply to any one user).


GAMR, -G, and -B are settings for each of the primary colors (CRT guns) for red, green, and blue. Unless you are correcting a grayscale defect, one generally sets these all to the same value. 0 is the highest gamma, and the values of 1-15 increasingly lower it. Or you can think of the higher values as raising the mid-tone level. (More on grayscale corrections in another article.) If you want to tinker, write down the original values.


GAMS is still a bit of a mystery to me. I suspect it means slope for the gamma curve, and that setting GAMS above 0 tilts the curve up at the bright end, raising highlight values along with midtones. It is hard to deduce from the Digital-Video Essentials DVD (DVE) test patterns, as some of those trigger the brightness limiter in these TVs and fool your eye. I have tried looking at grayscale strip- and chip-patterns, and I'm not confident I understand it. For now I think it's an added slope to the curve, and I am leaving it at 0 for most purposes. I'd love to hear from others on this.


From the factory, GAMM = 0 points to the following: GAMS thru GAMB *all* set to zero, and it is assigned to the Pro setting for *all* inputs. It's the most conservative settings and yields what most folks will likely prefer for good video material.


LATE UPDATE: I have found a test pattern that allows one to estimate the effective gamma of a display device, such as a computer monitor or television. It indicates that the native gamma of Pro mode (GAMM = 0) is about 2.4. If you reconfigure one of the GAMM columns to values of 3 for each or GAMR, GAMG, and GAMB, you will have a gamma of close to 2.2, the industry standard for television monitors. So I have set Movie mode to be *exactly * the same as Pro mode, except I have set GAMM to 1, GAMS to 0, and the three colors to 3 each. I'll post how to use this test pattern later.


----------



## KenTech

*05 - CUSTOMIZING PICTURE MODES*


The various picture-mode settings in late-model HS/XS/XBR Sony sets are not set in stone. They are simply pointers to a large group of presets that can be completely reconfigured in service mode. For example, I have no use for the factory's settings for Vivid and Standard - they're way too garish and have too many enhancements for my taste. So I have Left Pro pretty much alone, as a reference. Then I have commandeered Vivid for experimentation, and set up Standard and Movie to be equivalent to Pro, but with higher gamma, to resurrect murky video.


I proceeded by first making a particular picture mode identical to Pro, a intimidating process as you realize all of the input and scan modes that affect the values that are stored. But you can do it piecemeal as you need the settings for a given use. I first did it for SD broadcast, HD broadcast (1080i and 720p), and then my DVD player. That's only 4 for now. I'll do the S-video for the VCR another time.


To do this, you have to know where the settings are that are selected by a change in picture mode. Here is a definitive list I have checked and rechecked against the (official) charts I have. They are listed by group. Write down the original values before making any changes!


3D-COMB, 4 items. I haven't yet done any experimentation here, and I don't know what these do. I believe the comb-filter system extracts color information from SD broadcast and composite video.

- 14 VAPG, 15 VAPI. Defaults are 0 for Pro.

- 17 YPFT, 18 YPFG. Also per RF (tuner), CV/YC video input, and TwinView.


2170P-3, 17 items. Of *primary importance* to picture appearance. Also per input and video-scan mode.

- 0 thru 16, SYSM thru MIDE. #1 VMLV is not saved and is for temporary testing, of what I don't know yet.


2170P-3, 4 items. The velocity-modulation settings. Mine are now all at zero. Yecch!

- 17 thru 20, VM thru VML.


2170P-4, 6 items. [On some sets, but not XS955, for example. Now in permanent read-only memory as QM #14-19, not alterable. HS sets still list these.] Default settings for the user-menu sliders. Not very important, except as a convenience for those who can adjust them. Can be ignored, actually.

- #7 thru 12, UPIC thru UTMP.


2170P-4, 2 items. Important settings for gamma (+ preset table) and auto-black-level control (+ preset table). The Sony Dynamic Picture Control settings are here, in the presets for BKL.

- #17 or 11, GAMM. Pro = 0.

- #22 or 16, BLK. Pro = 0


3DNR, 15 items. This seems to be the video noise-reduction system, and there are 64 tweakable parameters, but I haven't gotten anywhere near tweaking these. I'm willing to trust the factory settings for now, as nothing seems to be wrong! But someday . . . On my 36XS955, only #34, 45, and 61 had different settings for the different picture modes.

- #34 YLV

- #39 YCR

- #41 YMG

- #43 YEL

- #44 YLM

- #45 CLV

- #48 GMG

- #49 CCR

- #50 CLM

- #57 thru 62, YNG thru YCO


I have gone thru and written down the values for all of these for Pro mode, for the several input/scan modes that matter to me. Then I have been transferring them to Vivid, Standard, and Movie mode as I can find the time.


Typical example #1: I use Vivid for testing. If I think I may want to change something that will affect the picture, I make the change to Vivid for that input/scan mode. Then, while watching real program material, I can easily flick between Pro and Vivid to see what the benefit or downside is. No harm done to Pro mode! Keeps me (relatively) sane. Don't forget that the user-menu settings are also saved with each picture mode, and for testing I had to make those the same for Vivid and Pro.


Typical example #2: I have set Movie mode to be exactly like Pro, except I have set GAMM = 1, and then GAMS = 0 and GAMR thru GAMB to 3. Nice for making murky program material much more enjoyable. Try different values for GAMR thru GAMB. Lost on ABC-HD is horribly dark, and Movie's raised gamma works perfectly to make it more enjoyable. Works with dark-exposed home video, too. (And I lately have discovered that GAM(R,G,B) settings of 3 may set the gamma to very near the television standard of 2.2.)


----------



## KenTech

*06 - AUTO BRIGHTNESS LIMITING*


Unlike many small and older large analog TVs, the image on these late-model Sony CRT-type TVs is not completely under control of the video signal. There is significant "brightness" limiting, some optional. (And the Dynamic Picture Control - brightness and contrast control - promoted by Sony is another story entirely! Another article.)


Imagine the following: You are watching a car commercial full-screen on SD in Pro mode. The car is nicely situated in a medium-bright outdoor scene beside a river. Brilliant highlights sparkle from the water, and there is a 100%-white sun-glint from the windshield. Gorgeous! Then, cut to a solid-white screen with the text 2.9% financing in the middle. You will note that, no matter the picture mode, the white screen will be nowhere nearly as bright as that sun-glint, even though it may also be 100%-white video. And it's not your eyes adjusting. It is especially apparent during kiddie cartoons, with their large areas of bright colors and white.


This is Picture or "contrast" limiting. I was first appalled by it, having come from a 27 older TV with no limiting of any kind. But I have come to believe is a bit kinder to the eyes, especially if you like to watch bright video in evening living-room lighting. Those 100%-white screens would be blinding. Note that this is not white-clipping; the relationships among all of the tonal values are preserved. It is a global setting, unaffected by any user controls.


As an engineer, I understand it may serve several purposes:


(1) It limits the CRT's beam-current. My 36XS955 can be made incredibly bright, and that is a large beam-current for the poor electron-emitting cathodes and the 31.5 kV high-voltage supply to support. So it likely protects the tube and maybe other electronics.


(2) All that energy flung all at once at the aperture-grille causes it to heat up and warp or sag, and you start to get pink or green patches in the white areas. You can probably see this occasionally; I certainly do. This is probably the outer bounds of this CRT technology, and limiting this effect keeps folks from calling Sony to complain. Another CRT-protection feature, too.


(3) For aesthetics. The response of the limiter is very prompt, and I got used to it very quickly, even though I'm very picky. I don't like being blinded, hate green/pink patches, and love the brilliant whites when they are small in area. I can live with it.


The setting for this instantaneous contrast-limiting is 2170P-4 #22 or 28/ABLT. The range is 0-15. You cannot turn it off (good thing!), and at its minumum of 0 the limiting is still significant but tolerable, and that's where I have left it. (As you increase the value above zero, the amount of contrast-limiting increases, making the picture even less bright.)


2170P-2 #4/YLMT is a hard white clip or limit, meaning that the picture appears normal except that no area is permitted to rise above a specified white level. The effect is minimized at YLMT = 3, and white limiting only becomes apparent as the value is reduced toward 0. My TV was alreadyset to 3.


[Revised 9-8-05.]


----------



## KenTech

*07 - DYNAMIC FOCUS*


Any CRT-TV's electron beam is focused with something like an electrostatic or electromagnetic lens to a tiny spot in the center of the display area. If the spot is moved to another location on the screen, however, the distance between the beam emitter and the screen changes, and therefore so must the focus. On flat-screen TVs, the effect is at its worst: the corner is *much* farther away than the center.


What keeps the beam focused is the dynamic-focusing signal, which is derived from the TV's vertical and horizontal scanning currents. No need to know the details - just that you have control over the basic parameters, and you can adjust them to improve the overall focus of your screen, if need be.


On the late-model tube-type XS/HS/XBR TVs, the service codes governing this are found in group 2170D-4: #0 thru 8, excluding #6: QPAM thru QPDP, DF, and DQP. We have to assume that the internal focus adjustment on the high-voltage transformer is set okay. If the following procedures won't work, perhaps it is not correctly set. I won't recommend that anyone who doesn't have considerable savvy about CRT television or monitor electronics even try the internal adjustment. (But it is an easy screwdriver adjustment.)


WRITE DOWN the original settings in case you get screwed up and want to turn back the clock. These aren't risky adjustments and aren't very sensitive. Some seem to have hardly any effect at first. I used a test pattern from Digital Video Essentials to set mine, Title 13, Chapter 2: SMPTE RP 133. I set the DVD player to progressive to force a full-screen display on my 4:3 36XS955. Brightness, picture, etc. were set to middle values; sharpness fairly low (~20). PRO mode. The finer-detailed the test pattern is, the easier these settings are to adjust.


Later, I created a much finer test pattern in Photoshop and copied it to a memory stick, and it made the focusing much easier. But some of these TVs don't have the memory-stick feature, and one has to record it to a CD as a JPEG image and display that. I found my memory-stick native resolution (4:3 for 36XS955) is exactly 1440 X 1080 dpi. I believe it would be 1920 X 1080 dpi for the 16:9 TVs. I haven't yet determined the precise native resolution of jpeg-on-CD.


***********

OVERALL FOCUS is #3 QPDC. Adjust for best CENTER focus for vertical *and* horizontal detail. You can sometimes find one setting for best horizontal scan lines and another for vertical lines, but pick a compromise. A couple blocks right in the center of the DVE test pattern are perfect for this.


NOTE 1: Some folks may have read that you can improve everything by cranking QPDC up to a high value. Don't believe it! Works only for the extreme left & right edges at the expense of center focus. You really have to follow a hierarchical procedure, starting with basic focus, and moving outward.


NOTE 2: These adjustments not only affect the spot size but its shape. Usually you have to compromise to get best-looking focus. Don't be fooled by looking at just horizontal or vertical detail.


LEFT-RIGHT BALANCE is #8 DQP. Adjust until the test pattern's left and right text samples (or some left and right detail at equal distances from center) are equally focused, even if not perfect. Equally out-of-focus can be the correct setting.


VERTICAL COMPENSATION is #4 QPDV. Adjust for best top-center and bottom-center focus. Mine is cranked all the way up to 63 and just makes it. (#5 QPDP is related; may balance top to bottom. Doesn't seem to have much effect, and I have left it at the default of 6.)


HORIZONTAL COMPENSATION is #0 QPAM. Adjust for best focus at the far left and right middle-edges. You can readjust #8 DQP for best balance left-right, if needed.


VERTICAL+HORIZONTAL COMBINED COMPENSATION is #1 QPAV. Adjust for best focus in the corners in conjunction with #7 DF, which affects just the extreme corners. (#2 QPAP may be another balance setting; it seems to have little effect, and I have left it at the default of 6.)


*********

WRITE these changes to the memory with Mute-Enter. Write them into your log for future reference.


Now go to an HD source of any kind or force a 1080i 16:9 scan mode with 2170P-4 #20 or 26 IDSW. Re-enter the same six settings you made above (and wrote down) to the same codes, and WRITE. Now you've done HD mode, too. Return IDSW to 0.


Sony says you can mass-copy these settings from your initial settings (not HD) to HD mode by going to #6 CPY1, setting it from 0 to 1, and performing a WRITE. I did it manually, since there are only six values, and I'm not sure I understand this CPY feature.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by KenTech_
> *Here is a copy of the widely circulating Excel spreadsheet for a Sony 34XBR910. I've reformatted it as a PDF file so you don't need Excel, but the Excel version is also included.*



Many thanks for this consolidated highly worthwhile compendium of posts.


But I think this zip file attachment does not contain the PDF version of the Excel spreadsheet which is included, but rather contains the same PDF from your previous post (i.e. the HS420 Service Data Chart.pdf). I assume you were meaning to include your PDF version of the XLS file.


----------



## CrocHunter

I respectfully disagree with you on the QPDC being out of focus in the middle of the screen.If anything it increases the focus on the middle screen and surrounding area a bit when cranked to max.


Using a 16:9 grid on DVE it was clearly noticeable improvement of picture focus when turned all the way to 63.


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

_Originally posted by DSperber_
*Many thanks for this consolidated highly worthwhile compendium of posts.


But I think this zip file attachment does not contain the PDF version of the Excel spreadsheet which is included, but rather contains the same PDF from your previous post (i.e. the HS420 Service Data Chart.pdf). I assume you were meaning to include your PDF version of the XLS file.*
Woops! So sorry! Here is what I meant to post, and I fixed the original.

 

service codes list (34xbr910).pdf 113.1181640625k . file


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

_Originally posted by CrocHunter_
*I respectfully disagree with you on the QPDC being out of focus in the middle of the screen.If anything it increases the focus on the middle screen and surrounding area a bit when cranked to max.


Using a 16:9 grid on DVE it was clearly noticeable improvement of picture focus when turned all the way to 63.*
This is possible if the screen was out of focus overall or maybe that your internal focus adjustment is out, and cranking up QPDC works to fix it. QPDC affects the entire screen, but no other settings appear to affect the center. So you start with the center and work outwards. Maybe that would still result in your QPDC going up to 63, who knows. Your set may require it. I'm advocating a sensible method, not specific settings. Ideally you would start with the back off the set, and do the control on the HV transformer *first.* I wouldn't try this! What you did worked.


It would be interesting to see what happens if you start with QPDC first and then optimize the other settings after it.


Attached is the initial-settings chart from the HS420 service manual. You'll note that for the different tubes the settings vary widely.

 

qp data-hs420.pdf 5.482421875k . file


----------



## KenTech

The attached file is what the HS420 service manual has to say on dynamic-convergence twiddling. A big help for pointing to the right codes.


I do NOT recommend anyone get inside the set.

 

convergencepage.pdf 424.2646484375k . file


----------



## KenTech

Attached are pages from the HS420 service manual for adjusting for certain picture distortions. Doesn't explain every relevant service code, but sure can help with most of it.

 

geometrypages.pdf 64.2607421875k . file


----------



## rholt

I have a new Sony XBR960.


I am not happy with the black level and a relatively small (but noticible) overscan issue.


So I decided to dive into the Service Menu. I have paged through many posts and printed out many charts. My objective for last night was pretty simple -

1) get into the service menu

2) page through all the settings

3) get out.


I completed 1) and 2) with no problem. I thought the easiest way to do 3) would be to simply power off - so I did.


Then I tried to power back on. To my horror - I just ended up with a black screen after powering back on. I retried powering up and down - same thing - the little red power light would flash red for 10 seconds - but I would end up with a black screen (with no sound). All the other buttons on the the remote didn't do anything (e.g. channel, voulume, video)


Here is what fixed it - unplugging the TV and plugging it back in. After I did that the TV started normally.


Can someone help me understand what made this happen. I would like to tweak the service menu - but last night was a pretty big scare. I feel like I need to understand this issue before I try it again.


----------



## rholt

I am working with a Sony XBR 960. Here are (what I suspect) are very basic questions.


1) My service menu looks different than the menu enumerated in the Excel spreadsheet that is an attachment earlier in this thread. My service menu looks like it does not have as many items. Also - many of the defaults are different. Is this to be expected?


2) In general - I can follow/match the pattern of categories and items laid out in the Excel spreadsheet. But I can't figure out how the different picture modes (e.g. Pro, Vivid, etc) are reflected. For example - I understand that RYR (in 2170P-4) has a different value for each picture mode - but I don't really see how that is reflected in the menu - I only see one value. I am clearly missing something.


3) I am particularly interested in the SBRT setting. I have had a really issue with the black level - shadows are way to deep. Can someone please help me understand - intuitively - what this setting does. How is it different than simply jacking up the brightness setting in the standard menu.


4) Am I risking my warranty by messing with the SM?


Thanks in advance for any help here. This is a great thread.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rholt_
> *
> 
> Then I tried to power back on. To my horror - I just ended up with a black screen after powering back on. I retried powering up and down - same thing - the little red power light would flash red for 10 seconds - but I would end up with a black screen (with no sound). All the other buttons on the the remote didn't do anything (e.g. channel, voulume, video)
> 
> 
> Here is what fixed it - unplugging the TV and plugging it back in. After I did that the TV started normally.*



Yep. You and a few other folks, including myself. It seems to be a bug (rare). It happened to me after an afternoon of looking at old vacation tapes and no service-mode activity at all. I panicked -- and then unplugged and replugged the set, and all was well.


I'm not sure how common it is, but others have posted about it. Don't let it scare you away from service-mode work.


That said, I have to say I don't completely understand the relationship between settings written and not written, and the unplugging of the set. In my case, I have made all changes a very few at a time, and written them with Mute-Enter. No intentional, written setting has ever disappeared by unplugging the set. So I guess if you WRITE the change, it survives all.


Then I got involved with the AUDIO section of the codes, and found that there was one code that, if changed from 3 to anything lower, got "stuck" below 3, giving me an undesirable result. (It was TRCV, BACV, or MDCV.) Took a while to figure out that this, too, was cured by unplugging the set. But it's the first example I had seen of a (non-written) setting-change that survived the power-off button. There may be others. I guess the lesson is that, if you have been tinkering with various setting changes and want to guarantee that nothing unwritten has "stuck," unplug the set for a few seconds after power-off.


If you make changes to code settings that are mode-dependent, they will likely revert to previous settings when you change modes, especially true of picture modes. And if you are in the MID5 codes and have used the temporary POP setting to point ot a column in the table so you can experiment, and then you step past the beginning or end of the MID5 category, the settings will revert to previous. Basic rule: If you want to make a permanent change, make it only to one or a few related settings, then WRITE it. Otherwise, with a little remote slight-of-hand, you may lose it. And unplugging the set for a few seconds completely eliminates any "residue" from previous experimentation.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rholt_
> *I am working with a Sony XBR 960. Here are (what I suspect) are very basic questions.
> *



1) I can't comment. My 36XS955 is missing a few items in the HS420 chart (the menu-slider defaults, no biggie) and some of the audio settings have different code-names. But I have no personal knowledge of the correspondence of that XBR910 list to the newer 960. I'll bet the HS420 chart will be of more value.


2) Download the HS420 chart, by all means! This will make it clear because the chart has *columns* for the different modes in many places. Don't fret that it isn't for your set exactly -- these sets have most all of these codes in common. (E.g. you have picture-in-picture or twinview, and I don't; so the codes that affect the so-called "sub-puctures" don't apply to me.) I have a memory stick slot, so that mode works for me. But the relevant codes won't apply to a set without that feature.


3) SBRT is the *critical* brightness setup. Think of it as the fundamental brightness pedestal upon which all of the other settings are built. And SBRT + Brightness slider + (a few other minor brightness tweaks) = visible black level. Further, the above pedestal is the base for the R, G, and B thresholds. So RCUT, GCUT, and BCUT are then set relative to the above pedestal.


I would (1) write down the original SBRT setting, and (2) set mode to Pro and Brightness slider to 31 (midpoint). Then, using a PLUGE or blackscale pattern on a test DVD or really good program material from a digital broadcast (fade to black works okay for now), (3) adjust SBRT until you have a satisfactory black level. Write the settings. This will get you in the ballpark until you can really tweak the color.


NOTE: Color/black settings in 2170P-1 are *global,* so SBRT is set once for all modes. But the Brightness slider setting is saved with each mode change. If you do it in Pro mode, you won't encounter any of the "dynamic" contrast or variable-black-level effects visible in the other modes.


4) Unless you have broken an explicit seal or caused damage for which you are now claiming warranty repair, the law doesn't allow manufacturers to deny warranty for any old reason! The laws were changed some years ago because of this abuse by manufacturers. But if you reset the service mode to factory-newborn settings, you would have some explaining to do! Simply entering service mode incurs no risk, and small adjustments that don't cause repair-worthy harm can't be significant. If your high-voltage transformer blows out, Sony can't deny warranty because they think you changed SBRT in service mode or modified picture modes to suit yourself. They have to show a connection. I refuse to be paranoid, but I am very disciplined and cautious about how I proceed!


----------



## rholt

KenTech -


First - thanks for these very helpful responses.


Second - I am still fuzzy on one issue.


How does one make picture mode specific Service Menu adjustments for SM settings that are picture mode specific. I am thinking about those color settings in the 2170P-4 series.


Is it the case that it depends on which picture mode you are in when you enter the SM. Is you are in the Vivid picture model when you enter the SM - then the modifications to RYR and RYB (for example) will only hold for the Vivid picture mode.


What happens if you change picture model while in the SM?


Thanks


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rholt_
> *How does one make picture mode specific Service Menu adjustments for SM settings that are picture mode specific. I am thinking about those color settings in the 2170P-4 series.
> 
> 
> Is it the case that it depends on which picture mode you are in when you enter the SM. Is you are in the Vivid picture model when you enter the SM - then the modifications to RYR and RYB (for example) will only hold for the Vivid picture mode.
> 
> 
> What happens if you change picture model while in the SM?*



You are free to change picture modes, scan modes, etc. *while* you are in service mode. The changes you *write* while in a given mode are what apply to that mode only, if they are mode-specific. And you can deduce that from the service-data chart (not the list). So, as you can see, almost all of 2170P-3 codes are picture *and* scan-mode specific. That's about four dozen separate settings that can be saved for each of codes 0-16 (excluding 1), for example.


If you make mode-specific changes without writing, then change modes, you will almost certainly lose the changes. This applies to HD reception, for example: you are in one picture mode and are watching PBS (1080i) and make a code change in 2170P-3. Then you change channels to ABC (720p). Your settings will be gone, since you are now in a different column in the chart -- a different scan mode! You've got to save those changes before you change any modes.


The color settings 2170P-1 #5-19 are global, and I have found no exceptions.


The color-matrix parameters RYR thru GYB in 2170P-4 are global. So for all the color-matrix parameters (the ones you are interested in), one setting works for all analog video inputs. (I earlier had thought that the Memory Stick settings were separate, but I think I was mistaken.)


BTW, I've confirmed to my satisfaction that the Video Essentials disk has an accurate color-bar chart, 75% of each of the six pure colors surrounded by 75% gray. Their method for setting RYR thru GYB is perfect! Use 2170P-2 to select which color guns are firing on the CRT instead of the filters. My set, of course, came with a huge red push. Now those four codes (in order) that were 8-9-9-6 are now 13-15-6-4 on my second go-around. The first try I got 13-15-5-4, and others have reported those settings, too. Big improvement! You could do a lot worse than simply trying those settings.


----------



## CPetty

Ken,

Have you made any changes to your sections (01 -07) since you posted on Agoraquest? I haven't tweaked my 34XS955 yet, still waiting for some burn in time, but I had saved those earlier posts for reference notes. Big thanks for sharing your findings to you and others. - CP


----------



## CrocHunter

I agree setting GYR and GYB lower and RYR and RYB high rssults in a much better color accuracy on the DVE test chart.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by CPetty_
> *Ken,
> 
> Have you made any changes to your sections (01 -07) since you posted on Agoraquest?*



I re-read those articles and made minor wording changes in my copy before posting here; I don't think there was anything really substantive. And a thorough spellcheck turned up a few embarrassments!


You're welcome!


----------



## KenTech

*08 - SOME USEFUL TEST PATTERNS*


Following are sets of test images that are extremely useful in adjusting the displays of both 4:3 and 16:9 sets. They are designed for MEMORY STICK use only, or for display from a computer. (Untested. I could use some feedback on this. Is this resolution okay for computer-to-TV display?)


Why memory stick? Because it is one good way to take nearly complete control over the pixels on-screen, important for test images. The native resolution for memory-stick images is 1080px high by 1440px wide for 4:3 sets, 1920px wide for 16:9 sets. The pixels are square. A same-resolution image is displayed *exactly.*


So if you should create a dynamite custom test image on your computer at exactly 1080h X 1440w or 1920w, you can save it at highest quality as a jpeg image, and put it into the DCIM folder on your memory stick. You can then view it on the TV without any resampling by the TV, in a mode called HD FULL. Perfect!


Unzip the files attached to the following messages, yielding the separate jpeg images. Using an appropriate card reader/writer, copy them from your computer to the DCIM folder on the memory stick. (Create this folder at root level if it's not yet there.) You may also use subfolders inside DCIM to categorize your images. Then write Sony a nasty note after you discover how needlessly convoluted it is to navigate subfolders in the MS-display mode. Sheesh!


Some of these are useful images even if resampled from jpeg-on-CD on a DVD player (inherently 480i). See individual descriptive messages. I wonder how many other ways there are to get custom test images to display accurately. A slideshow on DVD maybe? Suggestions?


**************
*Convergence & Geometry Test Patterns.* Attached to this message are some convergence and geometry test images that should help in assessing what's going on with your particular TV's display. Remember that the crosshatch patterns will look a lot worse than actual program material! The white-on-90% black are best for convergence. Black crosshatch on light background will help with geometry and focus. All patterns are based on 2-pixel line widths and 2 X 2-pixel dots.

 

converg_geom_test.zip 245.9482421875k . file


----------



## KenTech

Attached and following are really good focus test patterns using 1-pixel scribbles against light and dark backgrounds. The values are approx 20% and 80% brightness, not black and white, so you can easily see edge-enhancement aberrations and ringing. The two images are posted separately because of the file-size limitations here.

 

focus16by9.zip 458.017578125k . file


----------



## KenTech

(See previous message.)

 

focus4by3.zip 323.8310546875k . file


----------



## KenTech

Attached is an image that was a bear to make, but it is valuable in assessing how your TV handles horizontal and vertical detail. How the pattern darkens around the center white circle varies with amount of sharpening, and the MID5 & 2170P-3 settings. I'll also try to make a similar image with true light and dark sectors, not constant-width spokes. That will be tougher! The corner patterns are not very important, as this really isn't a focus test image but more of an sharpness-enhancement display. I didn't do a 16:9 version.

 

spokes.zip 334.40625k . file


----------



## KenTech

Attached is an image that shows the effect of adjusting the color-sharpness parameters in the 2170P-3 codes and in the MID5 table. Hardly visible in normal program material, color-sharpening and boundary effects are clearly visible in the color boundaries in this chart between the most-opposite colors, such as green-magenta. My settings have been tuned for clear boundaries with minimum bright-line aberrations and ringing. (I'll try to write something about the color parameters another time.)

 

adjacentcolors.zip 79.5068359375k . file


----------



## KenTech

This excellent chart was lifted from a Photoshop document I found online about ten years ago. It will show you your effective display gamma at a glance. It MUST be displayed at 1080px vertical in Pro mode, since it relies on alternating groups of exact scan lines for its accuracy and NO vertical sharpness enhancement. It can be adapted for different vertical resolution by *trimming* the image to another dimension, NOT by rescaling it. Memory stick works fine.


The principle is this: A pattern of alternating black and white equal scan-line groups has an average brightness of exactly 50% of full-white, inherently, no matter the gamma. The lines are horizontal so phosphor-grid and image-processing factors are eliminated. At a gamma of 1.00, a 50% solid-gray block appears to be the same brightness. (Blurring your eyes helps.) But at a gamma of, say, 2.20, that gray block would appear much darker than 50%.


But one can create a gray block that is lighter by the exact degree that will match the 50% surroundings. Its adjusted brightness can be calculated as raised to the 1/ power, or 0.50 to the 1 / 2.2 power, which is 0.73. So a gray block of 73% brightness embedded within a background of alternating black and white horizontal lines will appear to disappear if you blur your eyes while examining it *only* at a gamma of 2.2. In digital imaging, where black is 0 and white is 255, that square should have a value of 186.


So this chart is made up of a bunch of gray blocks of different brightness set against a black/white-line background, and corresponding gamma figures are indicated below. As you view the chart (not too close), one block will appear as the one that most blends into the background, and the corresponding gamma can be read from the red numbers below.


By this chart, my 36XS955 has a maximum gamma (all settings at zero) of 2.4+ - quite high. Makes a lot of insipid TV look much better. But the standard is 2.2, and I designated the GAMM = 1 column in the table for that. Each of GAMR thru GAMB are set to 3, and that seems to give a perfect display gamma of 2.2. Your outcome may differ, of course.

 

curr_gamma_test.zip 115.45703125k . file


----------



## KenTech

*09 - GETTING GOOD GRAYSCALE*


[9-9-05 Note: I no longer use the following "trick" for fudgling grayscale, i.e. setting one of the gamma settings higher than the others. I have reconsidered the whole matter, and I have gotten nearly-perfect grayscale on my 36XS955 by using excellent gray-step patterns from both the AVIA and DVE DVDs. Comparing with the same pattern displayed on a small computer monitor that has been calibrated to 6500K was a big help but probably not necessary. This is best read as documentation of my learning process. See additional notes in brackets.]


[I believe the following is still true.] I believe that the only way to great TV color is by first adjusting for great grayscale. Why? Because if your midtones are, say, cyanish compared to white and dark gray, that tint will attenuate reds everywhere in the midtone areas. Blue skies will have a touch of green. Skin tones will be yellowish not attractive! Color information is added on top of luminance (grayscale) information, and so grayscale reproduction has to be *right* as a fundamental base for building the color image. Setting the Color user-menu slider all the way to the left removes all color, so it's easy to see where you stand. You can just tune random broadcast material and check it out. Your eyes are a very good judge of this. Using a test DVD helps but isn't really necessary for judging this. Aesthetically speaking, errors of the yellowish-greenish type seem most offensive to me; blue or magenta less so.


When I calibrated my 36XS955 for perfect whites (color temp) and neutral dark grays, I found that my midtones were yellowish! White was already correct (the right combo of RDRV, GDRV, and BDRV), and so I thought I could fudge the cutoff settings (RCUT, GCUT, and BCUT) to get neutral midtones. Nope! When I did that, *some* midtones were okay, but now the dark grays were much too blue. [Not any more. Used a different method to get superb results.]


I had been through this before with computer monitors. The problem is that the inherent gamma or electrical response-curve of the CRT is slightly different for the blue electron gun compared to red and green. If the midtones are yellowish, the blue signal channel needs its gamma adjusted downward, pushing the midpoint of the curve upward. [Theoretically true, but may not actually be a determining factor on my TV.]


[The "trick" follows, no longer used.] Well, we can do this in service mode. The adjustment is a bit coarse, but it worked for me. Originally I had set GAMM = 0 and then GAMR, -G, and -B each to 0 for maximum gamma. I had done the same for GAMM = 1 and had set the individual colors to 3. But I now needed to correct the blue. So I tried raising GAMB to 1 where it had been 0, and to 4 where it had been 3, and wrote all data.


Now the grayscale was near perfect! A little twiddling of BCUT, and it now appeared dead-on for normal program material. I looked carefully at the darkest grays and nearly-blacks. Maybe there was a trace of coloration there, but it was totally insignificant compared to the previous yellow-contamination of the midtones. Problem solved.


So, to summarize, I adjusted all settings for the GAMM = 0 thru 3 presets to show GAMB = 1 notch higher than the other colors. This corrected my annoying yellowish midtones in grayscale program material.


[Major reconsideration. Added notes 9-9-05.]


----------



## KenTech

*10 - "PRESETS" AND RELATED SERVICE CODES*


Understanding the following is really important to working in service mode: Some codes do not have effects of their own but rather point to a *group* of real parameter-codes that are set elsewhere. For example, GAMM = 1 means whatever the settings for GAMS, GAMR, GAMB, and GAMR define for it. The GAMM settings of 0 thru 3 are *presets*, represented by four columns in the service-data table for GAMS-GAMB, and these settings dictate each value of GAMM to mean whatever you want it to mean. Likewise, the user-menu choices for Warm and Cool color-temp variations are determined by the values in two columns for codes 2170P-1 #14-22 (WBSW-DCOL). This is hard to discern from the Excel-based service-code listing, and having an appropriate service-data chart is essential.


Here are some preset groups that are likely to be most important to tweaking color and image quality:


(1) User menu: *Color Temp > Warm/Cool.* Set by the two columns of 2170P-1 #14-22 (WBSW-DCOL). Neutral color temp is set by the fundamental white-point settings of 2170P-1 8-10 (RDRV-BDRV). Warm and Cool are *offsets* from Neutral, and 31 = no offset. See article #03 for more.


(2) *2170P-3 #16, MIDE* points to a column in the immense MID5 table, which has 18 unique codes (rows) and 64 columns. MID5 #0, POP is a temporary pointer to any particular column in this table, so you can make changes without schlepping back and forth between 2170P-3 and MID5. Example: If you wanted to make changes in the settings for MIDE = 21, you can go to the MID5 #0, POP, and set it to 21. Then you are in column 21, and you can step thru the codes, make changes, and write them. Now any time you set MIDE in the 2170P-3 tables to 21, those settings you just made will take effect. (Of course, more than one column in the 2170P-3 tables can have MIDE = 21, and it will be the *same* 21.)


(3) User menu: Advanced Video > Program > *Color Axis > Default/Monitor* Set by two columns in the table for 2170P-4, #13-16 or 7-10, RYR-GYB. For the XS955 table, the columns are labeled Normal and Special Axis for Default and Monitor, respectively. After calibrating the Default color axis with Digital Video Essentials (RYR-GYB = 13-15-6-4), I found that the memory stick color was off using that setting: a real green push was still a problem. So I set the memory-stick axis to Monitor in the user menu, and recalibrated it in service mode (this time making changes in the Special Axis column. You can make changes in the user menu and watch the values change in RYR-GYB.) I used a memory-stick/jpeg custom test pattern that duplicates the DVE pattern. The settings ended up at RYR-GYB = 12-15-14-9. Perfect. Bottom line: You have *two* sets of color-axis adjustments you can apply as you wish with the Default/Monitor setting in the user menu. How you set them up is up to you.


(4) *2170P-4 #11 or 17, GAMM* is a table of 17 columns for every possible video/input mode and 4 rows for each picture mode. However, the values of 0-3 simply point to a column in a 4 X 4 table for the four codes following GAMM: GAMS, GAMR, GAMG, and GAMB. (GAMS is a brightness offset and has no effect at GAMS = 7.) To set GAMM = 0 for maximum gamma, for example, set GAMM to 0, then immediately set GAMS = 7, and each of the GAMR, -G, and -B codes to 0. (But see Article #09 for how to fudge the gamma settings to get a perfect grayscale.)


(5) *2170P-4 #22 or 16, BLK* controls the Dynamic Image feature advertised by Sony, an automatic modification of contrast and the brightness-response curve that depends on what is being displayed at any moment. It is described by a table just like GAMM, above, whose values of 0-3 point to one of four columns for several related codes following BLK: in 2170P-4, DCTR, APED, DSBO, ABLM, DPSQ; and in 2103-1, #24 and 25, ATPD and DCTR. [BLK is a little tough to figure out, but the factory's BLK = 0 seems to kill all dynamic effects. More another time. This feature is not to my taste.]


----------



## jcardani

Hi Ken,


I think that a detailed description for adjusting geometry would be a welcome addition to this thread. I have always had a problem on where to start and how the adjustments affect each other. I did see your earlier attachment from the SM BTW.


thanks,


Joe


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

_Originally posted by jcardani_
*I think that a detailed description for adjusting geometry would be a welcome addition to this thread.*
Well, um, [squirms visibly] aside from reducing overscan a bit for 4:3 material and reducing height slightly for 480i and HD compressed mode with 2170D-1 #13, ASPT, I actually haven't done much for myself. I did some basic recentering, using the SM instructions (attached), but very little was amiss on my set -- compared, say, to the poor folks who have sets that were accidentally reset to factory-newborn status.


I have been writing this stuff as I do it, making sure I walk the talk. I'm really not quite ready to write up anything comprehensive yet for geometry, as other matters have been of greater importance to me -- such as focus, gamma, correct image brightness and color, and image-detail rendition. They contributed the most to my immediate enjoyment of this excelent set.


As I find the time, I will likely get to geometry. But my set has a few static-convergence defects that a Tech will have to resolve first. I'll be calling someone to come out this week. I want *him* to be the first to open the back of the set.

 

xs955|xbr960 geometry.pdf 146.7265625k . file


----------



## KenTech

While I'm at it . . . for the 30-, 34-, and 36XS955 owners among us, see attached. Now, in living color!

 

xs955 service data.pdf 405.4189453125k . file


----------



## KenTech

And for the 34XBR960 . . .

 

34xbr960 service data.pdf 346.224609375k . file


----------



## rekalil

Ken,

I haven't made service menu adjustments with a TV for several years, but when I did make them with my Sony 32XBR2, I had to enter the service menu, change whatever values I was interested in changing, exit the service menu and then power up the TV normally to see what effect the changes that I had made had had. This tedious procedure had to be repeated as often as was needed until the parameter being adjusted was satisfactory. However, your posts imply that with current or recent model Sony TVs one can enter the service menu and simultaneously display the parameter that one wants to adjust. Is this inference correct?

Thanks very much.

Ron


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rekalil_
> *However, your posts imply that with current or recent model Sony TVs one can enter the service menu and simultaneously display the parameter that one wants to adjust. Is this inference correct?*



Yes, you can watch any video input, change channels, switch to memory stick -- all while in service mode, with the SM green character-based readout superimposed over the picture. When you make a change, you see the effect on the picture immediately. You just can't use the number buttons on the remote for channel hopping, as they are used for controlling service mode, as are a few other buttons, too. You can exit SM without saving any changes by simply recycling power. In case any of the settings "stick" anyway (as one Audio setting seems to), pulling the power plug fixes that.


----------



## KenTech

*11 - IMPROVING THE AUDIO*


I was very pleased to find that my 36XS955 has a decent subwoofer and not much of a plastic-cabinet sound. Nice! But of course I've been mucking around in service mode on just about everything else, and there *is* a group of codes for AUDIO just waiting to be tweaked. So . . .


On my set I found that voice had an annoying nasal quality, and high-quality piano sounded honky in the same frequency region. Mid-range boost maybe? And the Treble slider in the user menu boosted the annoyance factor lots faster than the extreme highs. So what's up with that?


The 21 codes for audio are in the group called AUDIO. ASYS switches all effects on and off, and only ASYS = 1 (on) sounds anywhere near decent.


I found that #1-3, TRCV, BACV, and MDCV all are controlled by the menu sliders for Bass and Treble, but that they affect treble, bass, and midrange, respectively. If all are set to 3, the tone-control sliders do nothing. It's hard to imagine how this works with the midrange! Seems that settings lower than 3 vary the width or impact of the frequency range affected by the sliders. I set the tone sliders to their midpoint (31) to start, and set the above three codes to 2 for moderate effect. Sony's original settings for these made no logical sense to me.


I discovered that codes #6, 8, and 10, MIDL (midtones), SBAS (lows), and STRE (highs), sort of act like a 3-band equalizer, affecting the tonal balance of the set when the tone controls are set in the middle. My set came with them set at 8 - 7 - 6, respectively. Changing those to 6 - 7 - 9 removed the honkiness and added transparency to the highs.


I noted that the subwoofer-supplied bass was really tubby. Thump - thump on pop music, but no real warmth to voices or other instruments. Warmth in the 300Hz region adds pleasantly to the illusion of size of the presentation (best metaphor I can think of). So I diddled with #7, LOFQ, and found that increasing it to 5 from 0 added back something that was missing. I haven't figured out exactly what #4 and 5, SVHI and SVLO, do, and so for now I have left them each at 4, the original settings. And I haven't a clue about #12, 19, and 20 (PSEF, TRS1, TRS2). So they remain untouched.


I had hoped that the SteadySound feature might miraculously control the nasty-loud commercial breaks. Mine, however, had almost no effect! Then I discovered that, when SteadySound is enabled, #13, AGCL, controls its effect, with AGCL=15 minimum (no effect) ranging to 0 (very substantial compression, obnoxious). My set had 9 as a default - no wonder it had little effect. I reduced it to 4 for now, and am pleased with the results. I generally don't like any compression, as the broadcasters lay it on quite heavily anyway. But how about music for accompanying a memory-stick slideshow? Or afternoon football? I would try settings of 2-4 and then use it with discretion.


Finally there are what appear to be dynamic bass-boost settings with big-time control over the subwoofer. #14, BBE, turns all of it on and off, and off sucks! So BBE will stay at 1. I found it interesting (as opposed to enlightening) to tinker with the four main settings, #15-18, BBEP thru BB2L. But it's really hard to deduce what they do and which of them might be responding dynamically to volume level - like the bass-impact switch on some CD players. So, after playing around a bit, I have left them alone. The other changes detailed above made such a substantial improvement overall, that I am content for now.


So, to summarize:

-- Get one of the service-data charts in front of you. Write down your original settings.


----------



## RickE

Ken, thanks for all the good info. I adjusted my gamma today on my 36XS955 which made a big improvement in black detail. I can actually see the fabric now on items such as black suits which wasn't possible before. I'm going to definatley make some geometry adjustments also as the left side of the picture sorta 'leans" to the right.


A question for you though. Is there a way to adjust the brightness of the picture while recieving a HD station via the atsc tuner and not effect the NTSC tuner brightness? Currently there is a big difference in the two and I have to adjust the brightness everytime I flip back and forth.

Thanks,

Rick


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by RickE_
> *Ken, thanks for all the good info. . . Is there a way to adjust the brightness of the picture while recieving a HD station via the atsc tuner and not effect the NTSC tuner brightness? Currently there is a big difference in the two and I have to adjust the brightness everytime I flip back and forth.*



You're very welcome, Rick.


You'll find the settings you are looking for in 2170P-3 #13-15, UBOF, UCOF, and UHOF. These are brightness (black level), color, and hue offsets on top of the global settings. Each increment here is equivalent to two clicks or so in the user menu.


Good strategy is to find your input source that has the *highest* predictable black level, and assign it a 0 for UBOF. (Touch up 2170P-1 #7 SBRT to recalibrate global black level, if needed.) For me it was my DVD player. Then a little switching around among sources and channels will let you find suitable settings for everything else. Write the change after each input or mode switch or you'll lose it. My favorite VCR has a slight pink shift to skin tones, so I was able to fix that with UHOF without screwing up other inputs.


Note that there are a maximum of about 60-something values that can be stored for *each* of the three offsets: one for each picture mode (4) times one for each input video mode (16 for my 36XS955). That's each of the four input resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) for each of V5/V6 together (component), all S-video, HDMI, and ATSC (tuner, SD and HD), plus individual settings for "RF," memory stick, and TwinView. Whew! Means you can tweak to your heart's content. Note that V5 and V6 component inputs are *not* separate, but the video modes are. Same with all S-video. Two 480i sources connected to V5 and V6 will have to share the same offset; but if one of them is *not* 480i (a set-top HD converter, say) , then they can be different.


SD broadcasts are completely inconsistent in black level, so the best you can do is choose a UBOF setting that causes you the least hassle when changing channels. HD broadcasts seem much more consistent, and your external devices (DVD, etc) may be easy to set & forget. I generally want the "base" setting for Brightness, Color, and Hue to be slider-midpoint = 31. Then I can adjust from there on the fly.


[Some channels (e.g. MTV, FoodTV) broadcast way too much color, and I have to tweak Color down to 25 or so. Is there no respect for standards? Don't they monitor the signal with a vectorscope or something?]


Very soon I will post an article of all of the 2170P-3 settings -- a big project! These settings determine the "look" of the picture: all of the detail rendering, enhancement, and filtering. With a few adjustments, you can do much better than Sony's factory settings!


----------



## KenTech

*12 - OPTIMIZING IMAGE DECODING, "SHAPING," AND ENHANCEMENT*


This has been the most difficult article to write, since it involves *subjective* judgments of image quality. So, up-front, my goals here were to try to get the images on my 36XS955 to *not* look like video but like realistic, high-quality film, at its best, where possible. Maybe even reality! The hardest part to get right is the reproduction of *texture*: human skin, clothing, rock and sand, distant trees, hair. Many image enhancements smear or attenuate this texture, but I am happy to claim that these particular Sony sets seem capable of reproducing it very well - providing it's not killed within the set by misguided filtering and over-the-top enhancements. What have helped me are (1) an extensive photography background, and (2) expectations in line with reality. TV is a crummy picture by most standards, but there's no reason one can't maximize its quality for what it is. And HD raises the stakes.


Video can have a look, and I have typically found it unattractive - overly bright, compressed luminance range; over-sharpening of all detail (historically called aperture correction; exaggerated color, especially food colors and reds; and *way* over-sharpening of high-contrast edges independent of other detail. Speaking optimistically, I have found that, even among SD channels, there is a great deal of first-rate NTSC video, whether local news, Survivor on CBS, or some documentary on the History or Food channel. I don't want the set tinkering excessively with good video. Just pass it to the screen, thanks, with suitable noise suppression and a little sharpness enhancement to compensate for losses in the long signal chain from camera thru editing to broadcast.


So I am striving for *transparency.* Some broadcast and VCR video is hopelessly bad, and so it will appear on-screen. It seems that attempts at manipulation just make it worse! So transparency works for me there, too, and I just deal with it.


There are too many technical details to write about in a forum message, so I have attached a PDF document converted from a Word document of the real article in its entirety. A detailed chart expresses succinctly what I have discovered about the very important 2170P-3 settings and the related MID5 chart, and I note a couple of newly-discovered (9-8-05) settings in 2103-1. (The charts' boundaries may print better than Adobe Reader will display.) In addition, please download one of the service-data charts available in this thread before attempting to make changes, as it makes plain the relationships among the picture and video modes and these settings. (Note: No discussion here about gamma, black level, color, geometry, convergence, etc. See other articles.)


That said, this continues to be a fascinating discovery process, and experiments can be conducted *safely* by (1) using one of the useless picture modes for playing around and (2) by laying claim to a couple of the columns in the MID5 table for your own purposes. If nothing else, I think just trying out the settings suggested in the table will really please some folks who are searching for this image perfection.


Feedback from readers is VERY WELCOME. Please! And let me know if there's any trouble with the PDF document.


[Small changes to message and major revisions to PDF document 9-8-05.]

 

Image_Processing_rev1_1.pdf 147.017578125k . file


----------



## KenTech

Here are a couple of excellent memory-stick test patterns for image tweaking. Edge effects, oversharpening, image "ghosting," and smear are all revealed quite well. These are only 4:3, as there is no advantage to a special 16:9 version (heights are the same).

 

image_optimizing-pats.zip 187.22265625k . file


----------



## KenTech

Here is an excellent memory-stick test pattern (not my invention) for focus adjustment. To remove the confusion of any misconvergence, it's recommended that you use 2170P-2 #1 RGBS = 2 to turn off all but the green gun when tweaking the 2170D-4 dynamic-focus settings. (You don't have to, but it helps.)


If the display is filled with the pattern, it won't compress into a file


----------



## KenTech

Here is the 16:9 version of the above.

 

focusmatrix_16x9sparse.zip 288.0087890625k . file


----------



## Johnny V.

As a newbie and a dope, I am highly uneducated in the land of electronic tinkering. Therefore, I am seeking mainly info here or at least some easy-to-understand suggestions.


Problem #1 - A slight but noticeable upward bowing at the bottom only, in letterbox and NOT in 4:3

Problem #2 - While viewing black and white broadcasts (or DVD) left third of the screen has a slight bluish tint. Right third has a slight brownish tint. (In both cases, emphasis on slight, but unnerving to me) The center third seems fine.


I'd be grateful for any ideas that would eliminate the need to call a tech out.


Many thanks!


----------



## Q of BanditZ

Talking about convergence, geometry, and things of that nature, several of you have told me that I can have a tech come out under warranty to use the magnets and all that other good stuff.


What would I ask for and how would I set it up, to get a tech to come out and do these sorts of things for me?


----------



## CrocHunter

I'd just say the convergance is off, and it's really noticeable.


By the way Ken,


I have found a discovery with SYSM.It seems you were right in that 3 is the "OFF" setting.


Upon further investigation i have noticed that when i turned sharpness way down with SYSM set at 1 or 0 it's blurry, but if i change SYSM to 3 it cleans up the picture and makes it sharper.Even with no sharpness or up to max the sharpness level stayed the same without getting grainy or blurry if i turn it up or down.


I guess you mentioned about leaving the sharpness setting at 20% right, is this the proper level?Upon using the DVE sharpness pattern it was hard to adjust the sharpness level since i set SYSM to 3 it pretty much does'nt matter where i put it, it looks the same.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnny V.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Problem #1 - A slight but noticeable upward bowing at the bottom only, in letterbox and NOT in 4:3
> 
> Problem #2 - While viewing black and white broadcasts (or DVD) left third of the screen has a slight bluish tint. Right third has a slight brownish tint. (In both cases, emphasis on slight, but unnerving to me) The center third seems fine.



(1) This is almost certainly correctable only with magnets, and Sony does not offer a single service-mode adjustment for it. Tilt, yes; bowing or curving, no. A magnet placed properly on the side of the CRT in the center of the botton will "repel" or "attract" the electron beam as it approaches this area, and the effect is to pull the scan lines outward or push them inward. Same with the corners and top. The sides can be corrected with correction signals added to the horizontal deflection, and that's what is available in the service code adjustments. But not top and bottom.


Since it's the same electron-beam that does both 4:3 and HD, I wonder if you are just not bothered by it on 4:3 because you don't have a perfect horizontal line staring you in the face al of the time, as you do at the bottom of the HD raster.


(2) Mine is very slightly this way, too, but I can easily ignore it. For now. According to the service manual, this is either a slight lateral misalignment of the deflection yoke (established with rubber wedges fixing the position of the yoke's front edge), or a slight adjustment of the main central purity magnets may be required.


All of these require opening the set and are best accomplished by a trained service person. If the set is still under warranty, this is the *only* way, and I would prompt the service organization sending out the tech to make sure it is someone who is savvy about placing magnets. (It's a very "organic" process, and requires common-sense skill, not following a recipe.) Tell them what you need done -- e.g. bottom-curvature geometry and yoke alignment. Make sure your convergence is okay; he can diddle that, too.


Personally, I *will* remove the back from my set and try a few adjustments myself -- I have a long history with this kind of thing that makes me fearless! But it ain't for the faint-of-heart or undisciplined.


I *wish* these adjustments were possible electronically, but the physics of it argue against that, to our inconvenience.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Q of BanditZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What would I ask for and how would I set it up, to get a tech to come out and do these sorts of things for me?



The thing to avoid is having some tech-bozo-in-training to mess with convergence on your set! I would ask around at high-end TV or home-theater specialty stores as to who does competent "magnet work" or who their favorite Sony service store is. Then call them, and grill them on whether they have a good "magnet guy." If they mumble or say, Oh yeah, all of our guys can do that," um, I would be a bit skeptical and try elsewhere.


I haven't gone throught this yet, but the specialty shop that sold me my TV pointed me to a service shop whose manager has already convinced me that he has two of his several service people who are especially good with magnets (a credible reply). I just haven't gotten the nerve yet, and my service warranty runs out in about 10 days.


----------



## Q of BanditZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The thing to avoid is having some tech-bozo-in-training to mess with convergence on your set! I would ask around at high-end TV or home-theater specialty stores as to who does competent "magnet work" or who their favorite Sony service store is. Then call them, and grill them on whether they have a good "magnet guy." If they mumble or say, Oh yeah, all of our guys can do that," um, I would be a bit skeptical and try elsewhere.
> 
> 
> I haven't gone throught this yet, but the specialty shop that sold me my TV pointed me to a service shop whose manager has already convinced me that he has two of his several service people who are especially good with magnets (a credible reply). I just haven't gotten the nerve yet, and my service warranty runs out in about 10 days.



Since I purchased my TV through Crutchfield, I'd have to ask them about it. See who they would refer me to.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Q of BanditZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since I purchased my TV through Crutchfield, I'd have to ask them about it. See who they would refer me to.



Unless they operate physically in your city, they wouldn't have a clue! No, I would visit a few stores in person. It's not much of an imposition to humbly ask for a referral to a service center they like. "I really don't know who else to ask," you could say. Just be really cool about it.


Even though I already have a referral, I think I will make a small tour of a few stores and see what they recommend, too. Maybe mention the service shop for which I have that referral to see if they agree.


----------



## bd2003

Regarding grayscale calibration:


I know every tube is different, but they have to be within some sort of spec.


Assuming nearly the same default values were present, could it be assumed that although not perfect, merely copying the sbrt, cuts and drives from your set would provide good grayscale, much better than stock? It cant possible require more than fine tuning from the point youve reached, allowing for the difference between sets. Unless Im way off the mark, and every set is WAY different?


----------



## Q of BanditZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Unless they operate physically in your city, they wouldn't have a clue!



Crutchfield explained to me that they would contact whoever the Sony service people would be in, or near my area.


It's a crapshoot how reliable THEY would be. Crutchfield wouldn't be the problem.


I may just save up and have an ISF man come out in a few months and just do it right.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bd2003* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> could it be assumed that although not perfect, merely copying the sbrt, cuts and drives from your set would provide good grayscale, much better than stock?



That might work really well. It's just that no one has given me any feedback yet, and I have set up only one set.


The exact voltages at which each tube produces a minimum glow on the tube face (darkest gray) has quite a bit to do with physical parameters in the three electron guns, and I have to believe that tiny variations in spacing of each emitter/cathode to grid #1 would alter the curve and cutoff. In my set, the blue gun has a slightly different response curve, and so I have to fudge it by knocking GAMB up one notch. I don't know if that's typical.


That said, I believe starting with my settings would put you in the ballpark of the brightness range I have come to appreciate, and tweaking of the settings for perfect color tracking and black cutoff might be minor.


Please post what your experience is because others may wish to try this without all the experimenting I find peversely delightful!


For convenience, here's a summary of my settings:


(1) (Brightness slider target average = 31.) 2170P-1 #7 SBRT = 31.

2170P-3 #13 UBOF for various inputs varies from 0 to 4. Choose 0 for the peripheral or input that gives the highest black level, and adjust others to match. Mine was a Toshiba DVD player. SBRT can be fudged if all of the UBOF settings are too high or low.


(2) 2170P-1 #8-13 RDRV-BCUT = 42-28-22-31-18-14 for a Normal color temp about 6400K. See my article #03 under "Normal Color" for my "white cloud" suggestion.


(3) For 2170P-1 #12-19: Warm = 0-7-34-31-28-34-31-28; Cool = 0-7-28-31-34-28-31-34.


(4) Suggestion: For a display gamma = 2.2 (TV standard), set 2170P-4 GAMR-GAMB to 3 for the picture mode of your choice; Set GAMS = 0. I have set Movie = Pro for all settings except gamma, and I use Movie for the "3" settings. For Pro, GAMR-GAMB = 0 = display gamma of about 2.45. My set requires fudging GAMB one higher for accurate blue tracking in grayscale. YMMV.


If there is black contamination with a color on an input relative to the others (my 1080i HD/tuner was yellow-green!), it has to be compensated with 2170P-1 #3 and 4, CBOF and CROF. For me 44-47 became 58-54 for 1080i broadcast OTA. Only blue and red are adjustable.


----------



## DaveC19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (1) This is almost certainly correctable only with magnets, and Sony does not offer a single service-mode adjustment for it. Tilt, yes; bowing or curving, no. A magnet placed properly on the side of the CRT in the center of the botton will "repel" or "attract" the electron beam as it approaches this area, and the effect is to pull the scan lines outward or push them inward. Same with the corners and top. The sides can be corrected with correction signals added to the horizontal deflection, and that's what is available in the service code adjustments. But not top and bottom.
> 
> 
> .....



Howcome computer monitors have electronic adjustments for geometry and tvs don't?


Also I have an old Sony PVM2030 that I used as a Videogame monitor as it has RGB input. The pincushion was off (bowed out) and the overscan was to much cutting off much of the image. I had to take off the back to fix it. All I did was adjust some pots back there to adj the pincushion, picture size, position. Can you do this with the newer Sony HDTVs?


----------



## CrocHunter

Yes i believe so in the service menu of the set.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DaveC19* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> All I did was adjust some pots back there to adj the pincushion, picture size, position. Can you do this with the newer Sony HDTVs?



Nope. No pots, except a couple on the high-voltage transformer for focus, G2 voltage, and one other, perhaps astigmatism. Everything else that you mentioned is adjusted in software/memory by setting numbers in a special service mode. You don't need to take the back off the set.


This seems to be the manufacturing trend. There are about 540 or so to this line of sets we are discussing here, and some of those have 1, others 60+ possible "memorized" settings, depending on type of signal, which input, etc. How could that ever be accomplised with pots?


----------



## CrocHunter

Ken, i put back SYSM to 1,since i have noticed the image was not as clear at 3.There was no ghosting at 0 or 1 since i have disabled VSM completely and the 4 you have mentioned starting with VM.


It seems that if you leave *SYSM* to *3* the sharpness slider has *NO* effect what so ever.If you put it at 0 or max it looks the same.


It seems that in order for sharpness to work, SYSM has to be set to either 1 or 0.(which are identical by the way).


So i would just leave SYSM alone like a lot of other people have mentioned.


just wanted to let you know of the discovery,You can try it yourself if you want.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (1) It seems that if you leave *SYSM* to *3* the sharpness slider has *NO* effect what so ever.If you put it at 0 or max it looks the same.
> 
> 
> (2) It seems that in order for sharpness to work, SYSM has to be set to either 1 or 0.(which are identical by the way).
> 
> 
> (3) So i would just leave SYSM alone like a lot of other people have mentioned.
> 
> 
> (4) just wanted to let you know of the discovery,You can try it yourself if you want.



(1) Sorry, but this is incorrect. See my article, which you apparently won't read for some reason. SYSM 0-2 is mapped to Sharpness, true, but the effect is very coarse. If Sharpness-control effect seems to disappear when SYSM = 3, you are feeding a signal which is much too coarse itself to show it. 2170P-3 #6-8 most certainly *are* also affected by the Sharpness slider, and a sufficiently sharp test pattern shows it readily (only a few of which can be found on DVE, for example).


There's not much you can do with this TV to improve really mushy SD material. (Travel Channel comes to mind.) The TV's enhancements are designed to work on small detail, except for SYSM = 1, and that level of detail simply doesn't exist in lots of broadcast video. But it *does* exist in some of it, and that's what I try to optimize.


(2) Wrong. Sorry. But 0 and 1 do seem identical.


(3) I disagree. If you *like* it, leave it alone (at 1 or 2), and this might be what *you* should do. But its effects distort image-texture quality for fine images from DVD or HD sources. That's why Sony has it initially set to 3 = OFF for all HD sources. My DVD images are harmed by the coarseness of SYSM, and I recommend *not* using it on those inputs for 480i and 480p. That said, my goal has been to *inform* people how to see these effects, and then to make up their own minds about what effects they want. This puts the control into the users' hands, not strictly Sony's. That, obviously, includes you. You get to pick your poison! My choice is to leave SYSM at 3, as it does not serve any of my purposes.


(4) Dude! Been there! Read the articles. I've spent *hours* researching this *before* writing the articles. (By the way, I'll stop saying that if you are dyslexic or something that prevents you from reading them. Is it that you don't have Adobe Reader?)


----------



## todd95008

KenTech, after reading your article the other day I tried several of the items you mentioned with various to little success. I tend to agree with Crochunter (somewhat) on the SYSM setting. I have left mine at 1 for everything except HD content which stayed at 3.

Changing the SYSM setting (with 480p from DVE & AVIA) & (1080i from ESPNHD frozen frame) caused the picture to shift horizontally with minor sharpness changes. SYSM @ 2 is a little coarse and 1 has the best compromise with DVD.

HD 1080i still looks best with a setting of 3 for all modes.

I wonder if since you may have used the memory stick for your images that you may see these differences ??

I still don't understand why the picture moves (left - right) with SYSM setting ???

Also, like Croc I'm keeping VM off with default pro settings on all pic modes (VM=0, VMH=12, VMM=8 & VML=4).

Lastly, I will try your MIDE setting on unused MID5/POP value of 60/61.


Todd


----------



## Q of BanditZ

I took delivery of my 960 today. Everything's great! Thanks to threads like these, I'm coming out of the great pretty strong in terms of PQ and adjustments.


I have not touched the service menu yet.


I DO have a rather noticeabe issue, though, and I'm hoping I can be baby walked through this before possibly getting a tech in here.


I don't know if you'd call this a geometry issue, a convergeance issue, or both, but here goes: Upper right and lower right of the screen, especially noticeable with 2:35:1 aspect ratio or anyting else that draws a straight line horizontally across the screen...the upper starts curve dowards and the lower right start to curve upwards. It's easily noticeable.


Is this magenet time, or can I get into the service menu, bump a setting or two real quick, and be on my way? Thanks!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Q of BanditZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is this magenet time, or can I get into the service menu, bump a setting or two real quick, and be on my way? Thanks!



Sorry to say, I think that requires magnets or an adjustment of the deflection yoke. Look at an all-gray or all-white screen (not too bright). Is there a slightly cool patch to the left of center and a warm patch to the right of center, or the reverse (not at the edge)? That would argue further for the deflection-yoke misalignment -- a very small adjustment.


I am suspicious that the order in which things are adjusted on the final factory-checkout line determines a lot. In stores, I see consistent convergence and curving problems with the upper-right corners on various XS and XBR sets from this generation. The yoke and tube are inherently symmetrical; so why upper (and lower) right? I had a dark patch in the upper-left corner, but that was fixed easily with the service-mode LANDING parameter called "UL." I finally did best by setting all corner adjustments to the middle (127) and starting over, going around to all four corners until everything balanced. If they are allowed only one pass at this, they may over compensate on an earlier adjustment and be stuck when it comes to the last one. Just speculating . . .


The curving of horizontal lines has no fix in service mode that I can see, and I've really looked. I have a bit of this problem, too, and I am having a good "magnet guy" come out next Wed to try his magic. I'll report the results. (My service-labor warranty is about to run out!)


----------



## DaveC19

I am looking to get an HDTV 30" or so pretty soon. I was wondering.


Are all of these Sony sets pretty much off with regards to geometry?

I can see that this is going to be a bit of a pain to buy a monitor and have to have a tech fix it right away.


I have looked at sets in the stores and I notice that the geo is off on most sets in the corners too.


The convergence can be dodgy many times too. Is this adjustable with the SM?


Also can the overscan be adjusted? It seems like 720P material is severely cut off. Can this be adjusted so that the whole image is visible?


Thanks.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (1) after reading your article the other day I tried several of the items you mentioned with various to little success. I tend to agree with Crochunter (somewhat) on the SYSM setting. I have left mine at 1 for everything except HD content which stayed at 3.
> 
> (2) Changing the SYSM setting (with 480p from DVE & AVIA) & (1080i from ESPNHD frozen frame) caused the picture to shift horizontally with minor sharpness changes. SYSM @ 2 is a little coarse and 1 has the best compromise with DVD.
> 
> HD 1080i still looks best with a setting of 3 for all modes.
> 
> (2a) I wonder if since you may have used the memory stick for your images that you may see these differences ??
> 
> (3) I still don't understand why the picture moves (left - right) with SYSM setting ???
> 
> Also, like Croc I'm keeping VM off with default pro settings on all pic modes (VM=0, VMH=12, VMM=8 & VML=4).
> 
> (4) Lastly, I will try your MIDE setting on unused MID5/POP value of 60/61.



(1) The whole point is to know what these settings do, and then to adjust them to suit yourself. Note that SYSM = 1 has a "minimum" effect with Sharpness set to about 10-15, not at the far left (0). As you go left of that, there is a softening effect. I simply don't like it, but you may prefer what it does to SD material. I think it's way too coarse for good DVDs. My taste.


(2-3) The edge effects applied by SYSM = 1 or 2 are derived from the luminance signal, but then they would be too late to act as an unsharp mask, where you want to sharpen both sides of a sudden transition in brightness. That would require seeing into the future! I believe the original luminance is *delayed* a bit, and the non-delayed luminance derivative is added to it. The effect is the the whole picture has to slide a little bit later in time -- i.e. to the right.


(2a) It's just that the memory stick is very clean and predictable, where anything fed from a DVD player is subject to all sorts of manipulation before it leaves the player. All you have to do is read comparative reviews of DVD players to see that their video bandwidth varies all over creation!


(4) Good! Here is where you can be quite creative with picture enhancements, and I'll be interested to hear what you arrive at. I imagine some of those parameters have effects visible on instruments, but I'm at a loss to see the effects, even with a tack-sharp test pattern.


It seems to me there are four classes of picture quality, and that one has to devise settings for each: 1080 and 720 HD, DVD-source ED (480I X 720 digital), ordinary high-quality SD, and yucky SD. You might even add a little extra edge boost to 720, since it is resampled and 1080 is not; this appears to be what Sony does in its MID5 table. Of course, much of 1080i broadcast is really DVD-quality, but you're stuck coming up with one MID5 column for both. That's where the sharpness control comes in -- down for real HD, up for ho-hum "HD."


I don't think there are any compensations in this set that are "just right" for blurry SD or tired VCR tapes. Every adjustment offered seems to assume a fairly high-quality picture in the first place. I don't agonize over it. I make a choice of Sharpness settiing and get on with it.


----------



## CrocHunter

No, actually i don't have Adobe Acrobat redaer which is why i can't view your pics










All is well now in the PQ department...As long as i don't see any ghosting or double lines and ringing then i'm fine with the settings i have.


----------



## Dark Rain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DaveC19* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am looking to get an HDTV 30" or so pretty soon. I was wondering.
> 
> 
> Are all of these Sony sets pretty much off with regards to geometry?
> 
> I can see that this is going to be a bit of a pain to buy a monitor and have to have a tech fix it right away.
> 
> 
> I have looked at sets in the stores and I notice that the geo is off on most sets in the corners too.
> 
> 
> The convergence can be dodgy many times too. Is this adjustable with the SM?
> 
> 
> Also can the overscan be adjusted? It seems like 720P material is severely cut off. Can this be adjusted so that the whole image is visible?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



No CRT TV will have perfect geometry, but some come out of the factory looking worse than others. I've been able to get the geometry on my Sony 30HS420 looking really good with some simple adjustments in the SM. The main ones that made the difference for my TV were VPIN, PIN, UCP, and LCP. I started out making small adjustments until everything starting looking good. I've almost eliminated the upper and lower horizontal bowing, and the slight vertical bowing near the edges is barely noticeable. Thanks go out to KenTech for providing the service manual pages for specific geometry settings. This helped me a lot.


Convergence can be dodgy. I've had a tech out to my house to see if the errors on my TV can be fixed. The errors are mostly in the corners and on the upper left side of the screen. It took nearly three weeks for Sony to get back to him to let him know that the errors are probably "within spec," but to go ahead and try to fix it. So, my TV is currently in a repair shop getting worked on. AFAIK, there's no way to adjust convergence in the SM. The settings that are there don't do anything on the HS420 series.


Overscan can be adjusted in the SM.


----------



## Q of BanditZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry to say, I think that requires magnets or an adjustment of the deflection yoke. Look at an all-gray or all-white screen (not too bright). Is there a slightly cool patch to the left of center and a warm patch to the right of center, or the reverse (not at the edge)? That would argue further for the deflection-yoke misalignment -- a very small adjustment.
> 
> 
> I am suspicious that the order in which things are adjusted on the final factory-checkout line determines a lot. In stores, I see consistent convergence and curving problems with the upper-right corners on various XS and XBR sets from this generation. The yoke and tube are inherently symmetrical; so why upper (and lower) right? I had a dark patch in the upper-left corner, but that was fixed easily with the service-mode LANDING parameter called "UL." I finally did best by setting all corner adjustments to the middle (127) and starting over, going around to all four corners until everything balanced. If they are allowed only one pass at this, they may over compensate on an earlier adjustment and be stuck when it comes to the last one. Just speculating . . .
> 
> 
> The curving of horizontal lines has no fix in service mode that I can see, and I've really looked. I have a bit of this problem, too, and I am having a good "magnet guy" come out next Wed to try his magic. I'll report the results. (My service-labor warranty is about to run out!)




Drat.


This means two things. Here's what Crutchfield told me to do about this:



> Quote:
> To have a Sony service tech come out and check those convergence issues you will need to contact Sony directly. They have a special number setup to handle their in home service issues. To setup someone to come out to your home please call the Sony at your service TV line at 800-282-2848. They will be able to give you better information and setup the in home service for you.



It's either this or I save up and just go ISF and finish it.


It's not the end of the world, but even my sister walked in the room and saw it right away, and she's hardly an "anal videophile."


I went to the ISF's official site and made contact with the closest local ISF calibrator, who's qualified across the boards.


He quoted me about $280 per input and said he'd even do the geometry and convergeance for free "as needed." Obviously, it's going to be needed for me.










Sounds like a good deal to me. In light of this, should I just wait a couple of months to save up the money and have him come out and finish it all off, or take my chances now with Sony to at least handle the geometry and convergeance issues.


Something else I've noticed: A very faint horizontal line that goes across the entire screen. It's very thin and straight. It's about 1/4 down from the top of the screen.

It exists at all times, all applications.


Edit: I called that Sony number and got to one of their reps and described to him what I had and threw out the key terms like "geometry" and "convergeance."


His response to me was to type something in a database and read back to me off of their computer that what I was seeing was a "perfectly normal" concave effect on a flat screen TV and that I wouldn't notice it after a time. He then concluded with: "If you're not having an actual problem with the picture or the sound, there is nothing wrong with your TV."


So, yeah...I'll be having an ISF guy deal with this in a few months.


----------



## CrocHunter

That line Holds the aperature grill in place.It's common on sony sets, it's not a problem with the sets, all sony sets have this line.Actually if you look closer there should be 2 lines one at the top and one at the bottom.


Once your set is calibrated you won't notice the lines at all,because the calibration will hide them.


Sorry to hear about your convergance and geometry problems










I guess i got lucky then with my sony at the time i purchased it,Great geometry out of the box, and only minor convergance problems which are off only at the bottom of the screen on the left and right, not in the middle.


----------



## Q of BanditZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That line Holds the aperature grill in place.It's common on sony sets, it's not a problem with the sets, all sony sets have this line.Actually if you look closer there should be 2 lines one at the top and one at the bottom.



I guessed that might be it. Certainly you can't see those lines once you're past about 3-4 feet or so.



> Quote:
> Sorry to hear about your convergance and geometry problems



Not earth shatteringly bad. Just a refinement that I'll have to deal with in a couple of months.



> Quote:
> I guess i got lucky then with my sony at the time i purchased it,Great geometry out of the box, and only minor convergance problems which are off only at the bottom of the screen on the left and right, not in the middle.



Thankfully, I have nothing wrong in the middle and actual TV and movie watching is just fine. The actual picture is not suffering from any distoriton.


This is just a nip and tuck issue.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dark Rain* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> AFAIK, there's no way to adjust convergence in the SM. The settings that are there don't do anything on the HS420 series.



According to the service manual specifically for the HS420 series, Section 4.3.5, there are several *dynamic* convergence adjustments in SM, and they show pictures of the problems that are solved by tweaking them (page 24).


That means only horizontal misalignment of the colors; vertical has to be handled by magnets. The SM codes are all in D-CONV, #0-12, YBWU-CADJ.


I haven't had any motivation yet to adjust any of these. You mean to say you can change these values, and they have *no* effect?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Q of BanditZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This means two things. Here's what Crutchfield told me to do about this: It's either this or I save up and just go ISF and finish it.



I'm disappointed to hear this. I think you should be able to get static convergence corrected under warranty. To this end I simply contacted a reputable Sony-authorized service center, told him what I wanted, mentioning 1/4" of misconvergence in the upper-right of the HD raster and a slight putiry problem, and he made an appointment for next Wed morning. I was not deflected to contacting Sony (who has every interest in trying to get out of this service).


I understand that $280 per input (yikes!) is okay with some, but jeez! many of these adjustments can be made by the owner to great perfection, and there is the issue of the near-religious orthodoxy of having a true "ISF" calibration. I have determined to my satisfaction that some of the ISF standards are not required to such precision (6500K for example; 6350K would be fine) and the tendency to calibrate a "brightness" level (meaning Picture) is complete nonsense. There is no correct "brightness" of white; what is required dependes on taste, the environment, and the particular TV's tendency to bloom at high brightnesses. These limits are easy to spot.


Education is everything and is obviously my overwhelming bias. But if a TV owner does not want to learn any of this stuff or develop the modicum of skill required to do it according to published help, spending money seems the only other way.


$280 per input? Some of the most critical adjustments are common to *all* inputs, and only a couple of tweaks are required to bring any particular input into line.


Sorry, but I can't hide my skepticism!


----------



## CrocHunter

I'd say there're not functional.


----------



## Q of BanditZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm disappointed to hear this. I think you should be able to get static convergence corrected under warranty.



Me, too. Unfortuneately, I ran into the kind of person that I DREAD running into when you call any of these "official" phone lines.


The guy wrote me off with a script and was borderline condescending, like I was crazy or know what the hell I was talking about.


I knew within two minutes of that conversation that I was wasting my time and it was going nowhere.





> Quote:
> To this end I simply contacted a reputable Sony-authorized service center, told him what I wanted, mentioning 1/4" of misconvergence in the upper-right of the HD raster and a slight putiry problem, and he made an appointment for next Wed morning. I was not deflected to contacting Sony (who has every interest in trying to get out of this service).




Ok. How do I do that? How do I get past this call center and track down the nearest reputable Sony service center near me?



> Quote:
> I understand that $280 per input (yikes!) is okay with some,



Heh, I didn't say it was "ok", I just said it was reasonable sounding enough FOR AN ISF JOB and what I know about that. No, I'm not real thrilled at the prospect, but I'm willing to take some steps, within reason, to achieve as close to perfection as possible.


Tonight, I watched some 16:9 material that had no letterbox bars whatsoever. The picture itself shows NO SIGNS of the "convergeance" issue that I see with a straight line, like the letterbox bars, for example. Thank God for that!



> Quote:
> but jeez! many of these adjustments can be made by the owner to great perfection,



How?! You told me earlier that there's nothing in the service menu that can fix geometry or convergeance.


For color and other things like that...I may make a trek into the service menu at a later date, with your material here as guide.


There's really not much point in me doing that right now until the geometry and convergeance issues are addressed.



> Quote:
> and there is the issue of the near-religious orthodoxy of having a true "ISF" calibration.



I've never done it before and I've never heard of it before until about a year ago, when I start posting here at AVS.


To my "unprofessional eyes", calibrating out of Pro and Monitor has given me a hell of a nice picture already.











> Quote:
> I have determined to my satisfaction that some of the ISF standards are not required to such precision (6500K for example; 6350K would be fine) and the tendency to calibrate a "brightness" level (meaning Picture) is complete nonsense. There is no correct "brightness" of white; what is required dependes on taste, the environment, and the particular TV's tendency to bloom at high brightnesses. These limits are easy to spot.



This is where we come into uncharted territory for me.



> Quote:
> Education is everything and is obviously my overwhelming bias. But if a TV owner does not want to learn any of this stuff or develop the modicum of skill required to do it according to published help, spending money seems the only other way.



What did you have in mind?



> Quote:
> $280 per input? Some of the most critical adjustments are common to *all* inputs, and only a couple of tweaks are required to bring any particular input into line.
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I can't hide my skepticism!



Me, too.


Truth be told, I'm really well satisifed right now. If I could get the minor geometry/convergeance issue easily taken care of...I'm really not sure how much better, within reason, my PQ can really get on this TV.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Q of BanditZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (1) Ok. How do I do that? How do I get past this call center and track down the nearest reputable Sony service center near me?
> 
> (2) How?! You told me earlier that there's nothing in the service menu that can fix geometry or convergeance.
> 
> (3) For color and other things like that...I may make a trek into the service menu at a later date, with your material here as guide.
> 
> (4) There's really not much point in me doing that right now until the geometry and convergeance issues are addressed.
> 
> (5) This is where we come into uncharted territory for me.
> 
> (6) What did you have in mind?
> 
> (7) Truth be told, I'm really well satisifed right now. If I could get the minor geometry/convergeance issue easily taken care of...I'm really not sure how much better, within reason, my PQ can really get on this TV.



(1) I haven't a clue where you live, but Sony-authorized service is usually identified that way in the Yellow Pages. And then there's that possible referral from a Sony-TV dealer who looks like they might care about you.

(2) & (4) No, sorry, I wouldn't have said that. There are adjustments in service mode for most geometry corrections (all distortions of vertical lines, aspect-ratio, and overscan) and for dynamic convergence. If you have a problem with *horizontal* lines bowing as they approach the right picture edge, for example, or with vertical displacement of color (color fringing of horizontal lines), yes, *that* is magnet-ville. But that shouldn't stop you from calibrating even more important aspects of your TV, such as black level, color accuracy, white temperature, focus, gamma -- all those things that the ISF guy will slave over for $$. None requires perfection in convergence or geometry before meaningful adjustment can take place. For example, any problems I have with horizintal lines, purity (colored patches), and static convergence *are still there.*

(3) Please! It's easier than you think at present, and I certainly believe it's really the key to enjoyment.

(5) Well, it was for me, too. The "white-cloud" standard for white is *excellent* and is further proven in 2 months' use. (Article #03.)

(6) I was referring to ISF calibration. I wish there was another, less snobbish, choice. It may be that, in your city, there is a trained tech who can do what is needed, ISF or not, and charge a fair price. Thing is, then you remain dependent on somebody else's expertise. If you learn how to do some of these things for yourself, you can tinker for free forever after! I've tried to convey what I have learned, but the terse language of this engineer may not suit some folks, and I don't know what else I can do except document what worked for me, basing my claims on long-term engineering and digital-imaging expertise as a base. (And a certain fearlessness in these matters.)

(7) This is good! I really would go to some trouble to find a service center who will talk to you. Speak to its manager, as I did, and act a bit like you know what you need. Don't let anyone treat you like an idiot!


----------



## jmccorm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The curving of horizontal lines has no fix in service mode that I can see, and I've really looked. I have a bit of this problem, too, and I am having a good "magnet guy" come out next Wed to try his magic. I'll report the results. (My service-labor warranty is about to run out!)



I had an unexpected result in this area. The convergence of my upper left corner was off. And the horizontal lines kind of drooped down as it approached the end of the screen. It was quite visible when the info box that displays what video source you are on came on the screen. No magnetic fields outside of the TV accounted for it.


Well, looking in the geometry fix, I didn't see anything in the guide that really described my problem, so I skipped that and went to fix something I could tackle, the convergence issue. For the first time, I pulled up your 16:9 matrix of dots (thank you!) and saw a few other minor changes I wanted to make here and there, so I went to town.


I adjusted everything under the convergence category, starting with the overall convergence of the screen, then going to one side of the screen, then the smaller areas. But when I was done, I was actually surprised, My convergence was much better in the upper left (not perfect, but close), but unexpectedly, my geometry was far better and the drooping was gone.


There seems to be some connection to geometry in the convergence settings, but darned if I know which combination did it. I adjusted too many things, and I didn't see the result until after I had saved the changes.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmccorm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I adjusted everything under the convergence category, starting with the overall convergence of the screen, then going to one side of the screen, then the smaller areas. But when I was done, I was actually surprised, My convergence was much better in the upper left (not perfect, but close), but unexpectedly, my geometry was far better and the drooping was gone.
> 
> 
> There seems to be some connection to geometry in the convergence settings, but darned if I know which combination did it. I adjusted too many things, and I didn't see the result until after I had saved the changes.



Well, *that* is interesting! Do you mean when you say "the overall convergence" that you followed the procedures for adjusting the hexapole and other magnets inside the cabinet? Or did you address only the settings in D-CONV in service mode?


I'm not surprised to hear that there is a connection between convergence and certain geometry parameters, since both are accomplished with magnets (including coils energized thru the adjustments in SM). When I previously diddled with computer monitors, I found purity (dark or off-color patches), convergence, and warping of the raster all could be affected by holding *one* magnet near the tube and variously aligning it. Everything I did involved compromise -- which was the "art" part of it.


Could you be a little more specific about what you did? And did *anything* you did affect color fringing of horizontal lines?


----------



## Q of BanditZ

Yeah, I'm eager to see what jmccorm did as well.


Based on what I've read here and seen with my own eyes...I might not need the magnets.


But I really want to be baby walked and be absolutely sure on this, so I'm going to re-read this thread, download all relevant material in regards to the 960, have a pen a paper, watch this thread, and maybe have myself a very careful adventure this weekend.


----------



## KenTech

Just to make sure you guys have the "right stuff" for this, here (again?) are the relevant service-manual pages. Sorry I had to split it to avoid the 512K file-size limit.


[Addendum: These pages apply to all the XS955 sets, too.]

 

xbr960_conv_geom_p1-6.pdf 302.4365234375k . file

 

xbr960_conv_geom_p7-10.pdf 476.783203125k . file


----------



## jmccorm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, *that* is interesting! Do you mean when you say "the overall convergence" that you followed the procedures for adjusting the hexapole and other magnets inside the cabinet? Or did you address only the settings in D-CONV in service mode?



D-CONV only. I did not stop at #12 but I did the whole range of options (even though they weren't covered in the document), all the way up to #23 (SSLB). I did see that there seems to be some sort of relationship of opposites between the 0-12 and 13-23 ranges, but I didn't explore that. I just got lucky. There might be some key there.


And did *anything* you did affect color fringing of horizontal lines?[/quote]


The color fringing of horizontal lines (color above and below the lines running left to right) improved significantly. Wasn't perfect, but better. Before, along with the drooping if the input source info box, the vertical misconvergence was obvious. Now, it is much more subtle.


I'm having problems reproducing the original problem, though, which is starting to make me wonder.


----------



## KenTech

Did a little fooling around with dynamic convergence this afternoon (the D-CONV settings). My set wasn't way off, but I did improve things a bit. Here's a few things I learned:


(1) The service manual discusses using D-CONV #13 CPY2 to copy your 480i or memory-stick convergence settings to HD 1080i. Surprise! There is no "CPY2," and the settings are now common to *all* of the scan modes as far as I can tell. #13 is HVCA, range 0-63, and mine is at 63. I haven't yet deduced what it does.


(2) In D-CONV, the central convergence setting is #12, CADJ for "center adjust." I would do that one first using one of my fine-dot patterns. (See article #08.) The service manual shows what #0-11 do. 14-23 are the same as 2-11 and appear to be "sub-settings" in Sony's parlance, i.e. offsets. With a range of 0-63, 31 is treated as center = 0 offset, and all of mine are at 31, which is *not* what is shown in the service-data chart for my set. It appears therefore that the real setting for, say, RSAP = RSAP + SRSP; same for RUMB + SRUM, RLBW + SRLB, etc. The "S" settings are the "base" settings, and one tweaks 2-11 to fine-tune everything. I left all of the "S" settings alone. A note on the chart says they're "different for the 30XBR910." I guess I would concentrate only on #0-12.


(3) I revisited all of my LANDING settings from #0 thru 6. #6, TESW, turns off the corner compensation of #0-3, LT-RB, so you can choose settings for EWSP and ENSW that give a most-even color for the screen. Put up a white or gray full screen (my black crosshatch-on-gray will do), not too bright, stand back a ways, set TESW to 1, and set EWSP and ENSW for best evenness. Then turn TESW back to 0 and tweak LT-RB for best corners -- minimum color, minimum darkening. (Don't stare; move your eyes around.) I improved mine. Something a tech said to me reminded me that there *are* set-orientation adjustments, and EW and NS look like east-west and north-south to me. I ended up with different settings than I had before and a more-even screen.


(4) jmccorm: After I tweaked convergence and saved the settings, I screwed with the settings to see if vertical convergence was affected. No amount of radical twiddling of the D-CONV settings changed anything. Whatever *vertical* color misalignments I have were not affected. Maybe we are expecting too much! We'll see if the tech turns up his nose at it on Wed with "It's within Sony Specs.".


----------



## MikeK614

I have a XBR 960 and I am having a slight issue with 1080i sources. With both a 1080i signal coming from my computer, and a 1080i signal coming from a DVD player, I am getting quite a significant amount of flickering especially noticeable in DVD menus or around text. This happens both on component and the HDMI input. 720P sources come in very solidly. Is there a service menu setting I could try that would change the timing of 1080i inputs that might reduce the flickering?


----------



## KenTech

Mike, welcome to the worst aspect of interlaced video (the "i" in 1080i and 480i).


Alternate lines of an interlaced display are present only every 1/30 sec, i.e. any one scan line is drawn at 30Hz, and would be a very visible flicker -- except that every adjacent line is drawn 1/60th second later, and so the eye nicely integrates this interlaced set of alternatineg 30Hz fields into nice 60Hz frames, and flicker isn't perceived, especially with normal program material generated by cameras. ("Hz" = cycles per second.) The glow-persistence of the CRT's screen phosphors helps, too, although it's what can cause the "white trails" that follow moving bright objects against dark backgrounds. (Solution: Don't watch TV in such a dark room!)


Now if this display is fed a computer-generated horizontal line, one whose top and botton edges are pixel-accurate in definition, those edges will flicker, since the scan line defining them is flickering on and off at a 30Hz rate. STB and DVD menus and computers likely are your most common sources for this kind of graphic. You'll notice the TV itself generates graphics, too, but it's slightly blurred (antialiased) so there is minimal flicker.


If you switch to a progressive display of the same material, *all* scan lines are drawn at a 60Hz rate, all together, and there's nothing onscreen that can cause flicker in the first place.


On these Sony sets, 720p is resampled up to 1080i, and the resampling includes some antialiasing (smoothing) and other tricks that neatly minimize any flicker. Sony does really good resampling, as DRC demonstrates for SD material.


Broadcast material in 1080i (last night's CSI/Miami on CBS, for example -- gorgeous!) contains almost nothing that can cause flicker. You can get as close to the screen as you wish to revel in the image, and nothing looks amiss or jittery. In this sense 1080i is as good as it gets, and I can't help but wonder if (yet nonexistent) 1080-progressive would be an improvement on this. Perhaps for motion artifacts; but broadcast HD falls apart during motion because of the compression (macro-blocking), and edge-motion artifacts should be the least of your complaints!


Maybe it will be 1080p HD-DVD that will make the difference.


There are no service-menu settings that can reduce this effect, since it's an inherent interaction between the program material and an interlaced display. All you can do is choose program material that doesn't flicker, learn to ignore it, or display computer graphics in 480p exclusively.


----------



## nathan118

Well, I don't have time to get super in-depth in my tweaking just yet, but I was going to run through an AVIA disk. My question though is this:


Running the DVD on video 5 of my 34" XS, won't that only setup the component inputs? What about good old antenna and tweaking that? I know there is a ton of information ken has posted...but that's the problem.







Any quick tips for AVIA tweaking is appreciated, thanks guys.


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by *nathan118*
Running the DVD on video 5 of my 34" XS, won't that only setup the component inputs? What about good old antenna and tweaking that? I know there is a ton of information ken has posted...but that's the problem.







Any quick tips for AVIA tweaking is appreciated, thanks guys.
I'm wondering about this myself.


A couple of weeks ago, I created in Photoshop the "perfect" color-calibration test screen (attached) for my MS slot, using the conventions of the Digital Video Essentials DVD: Blocks of the usual SMPTE colors at 75% brightness, surrounded by 75% gray. I had set up my V5 component input from the DVD player and DVE. I was surprised to learn that the memory-stick slot had slightly different rules! When I set up the four color-matrix parameters in 2170P-4, RYR thru GYB, I got different settings than I had gotten with the DVE DVD thru V5.


The two color-matrix settings in the user menu, "Default" and "Monitor," can be set up any way you wish. Those names are arbitrarily chosen by Sony. So I set up "Default" for the DVE calibration of V5 and "Monitor" for the MS test pattern.


Now, question is: Does either one apply perfectly to broadcast, especially ATSC-HD? The block diagram for these XS and XBR sets show clearly that the MS slot feeds thru the same pathway ("YUV") used by the ATSC tuner's HD output, component inputs, and HDMI receiver module, completely bypassing DSC.


So why the settings differences? Now that I have tried them both, it sems the differences are negligible and may be attributed to the DVD player's being slightly different from the MS input. (MS is a *very* direct input, a perfect way to insert test images into the TV for alignment.) I will place my bet that the MS pattern correctly calibrates color for the HD tuner, since color encoding there is digital and doesn't involve the messy NTSC color-extraction process of SD broadcast.


So that leaves the S-Video inputs and SD tuner as the unknowns. I could connect the DVD player thru S-video and repeat calibration to see what changes, but I can't mimic a perfect SD signal without additional test equipment. I guess I won't agonize about broadcast SD, since there is such color and black-level anarchy there anyway. I'll just adjust in the user menu to suit myself. But I want to know that the DVD player and broadcast HD are reasonably accurate, and I've probabnly accomplished that.


Bottom line: You can agonize over getting the TV perfect, but the program material still varies all over the place, even on HD broadcast. So you eventually run into limited returns for the effort. Maybe big-release DVDs are the most consistent.

 

Color_Calib_pattern.zip 40.4482421875k . file


----------



## jasperm

Hi KenTech and others -


Been following this thread, preparing to try and do some calibration on my KV34HS420 - same problems others speak of - dark HD via Comcast, poorly set blacks, terribly grainy display of analog channels out of the motorola box, etc.


But there are some assumptions that I feel I'm missing in terms of how to approach this:


1) Running AVIA from DVD obviously incorporates characteristics of both DVD and display set up - KenTech talked about this some in last post - I don't have a mem stick slot - so I'm guessing there's no way for me to calibrate for cable box input without including DVD in loop - is that right? No cable channel-based test targets or anything? No built in test patterns in Motorola cable STB? No way to feed a video input into the cable box? (It actually has video inputs, but manual says they are for future use and not enabled - I haven't actually tried to put anything into them though to see what happens).


2) Assuming I can use only the DVD to calibrate, what about the various adjustments on the DVD player ? Do I leave those at default and just adjust the tv? It seems logically like you would want to set up tv for a "generic" input, then further adjust the DVD settings to keep that input consistent with others - but I have no idea in practice how to do this, or in what order, or by what algorithm (I also was a scientist and EE in previous lives!).


Given the user settings, the serv menu tweaks, and the DVD's settings, what order would you go about adjusting things in to get not just the DVD input good, but also as many of the others, too? (So I use SD and HD cable, standard VHS, DVD).


3) In the various tweaks discussed in this thread, there are the MID5 settings that use that 64 column look up table - I'm not quite clear on how this interacts with the various input/picture mode combinations. Is it that for each combination (eg video 6, 480 p, Movie) for MIDE, the number in the appropriate column points to the column of settings in MID5 that are used for that set of 17 values (the MID5 parameters?). So MIDE is sort of an acronym that expands to 17 parameters, whose values are chosen by the column pointed to by the number in the appropriate column of MIDE?


Am I getting this right?


4) Finally, for someone who doesn't want to spend dozens of hours working on this (and can't given family and work!), could you help me figure out what changes will get the most bang for my buck, and what order to do them in? I figure black level, gamma, white level - reducing VM? Best targets to use from AVIA?


Thanks for your help!

Michael


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jasperm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No cable channel-based test targets or anything? No built in test patterns in Motorola cable STB? No way to feed a video input into the cable box?



jasperm,


I have the same set and the Comcast/Motorola DCT6200. I found out that INHD1 broadcasts HD test patterns at 7:00am EDT on Saturdays. Check it out!


Cheers!


----------



## CrocHunter

Mike,


I own the same exact set, i can guarantee you that this set will calibrate wonderfully if you know what your doing.


Firstly i would leave the dvd player settings at default and adjust the display not the dvd picture settings.


There are some service menu tweaks that will greatly improve your PQ if you know what you are doing and how to use the service menu.


Remember to write everything down before you change anything in the service menu, this will save you a lot of pain incase you forget what the original setting is or screw up.


So here's the code sequence to enter the service menu: "DISPLAY" "5" "VOLUME+" "POWER".


To navigate the service menu use the 1 and 4 keys, to change the values use the 3 and 6 keys.


To save a value setting press "MUTING" then "ENTER", the words "WRITE" will be displayed in red if it got saved.To exit the service menu just simply turn your tv off.


Settings that will fix any color decoder errors are RYR,RYB,GYR and GYB.


RYR and RYB will fix the red push, and GYR and GYB will fix the greens.


even though you have turned off clear edge in the user menu, it is not completely off in the service menu. If you want to completely disable it turn these settings to 0:


VMLV

VMCR

VMLM

VMFO

VMDL

SHOF is an sharpness enhancer that artificially shrapens the image, it's best left off since it adds noise to the picture when it's on.


LTLV

CTLV

VM

VMH

VMM

VML


turning these off to 0 will get rid of any edge enhancement to the picture, that way you can get edge enhancement from the sorce material not the display.


QPDC will increase center focus of the set, and make everything much clearer and sharp, you will need a test pattern with a grid such as the 16:9 test patterns, to see how the focus improves by fiddling with QPDC.


Then there's overscan adjustments that will fix your picture size incase your tv is cutting out any part of the image that should'nt be cut.


Firstly you will need an overscan test pattern to see how much overscan your set has.Typically you would want to keep it at 5% or lower, but i'd say 5% is just about right. maybe 4% or 3" if you can get it any lower without showing black bars around the picture.


That's pretty much it really that i did with my sony, these adjustments alone will give you a much better picture than the way it came out of the box when you bought it.


Here's a tip, before going into the service menu keep all the picture settings in the middle, and adjust them after your done with the service menu.Use the "PRO" picture mode since this gives the most accurate picture of them all and is the best to use for PQ.


Have fun, any questions feel free to ask either me or any other sony owner.Infact there's another thread i made called "sony tweaking tips", you might want to check that out as well since it gives a lot of helpfull information.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jasperm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But there are some assumptions that I feel I'm missing in terms of how to approach this:
> 
> 1) . . . I'm guessing there's no way for me to calibrate for cable box input without including DVD in loop - is that right?



Yeah, that's probably right. But if you use the same input class for both (say, component on V5 and V6), you are at least guaranteeling that the TV is calibrated closely enough. I believe the DVD player contributes very little to color distortion, and you'll have to take it on faith that the cable box is similarly neutral. Broadcast-HD *material* is not completely conststent in color balance, although I find the black level to be way better than SD/analog.



> Quote:
> 2) Assuming I can use only the DVD to calibrate, what about the various adjustments on the DVD player? Do I leave those at default and just adjust the tv?



For color you don't have any controls in the DVD player, right? So that's not an issue. But black level is dependent on what is offered by the DVD player. My Toshiba SD-3950 has settings for Standard, Enhanced Black Level, Movie 1, Movie 2, and Animation. Each tweaks the black level and brightness-span. Since my player always passes both super-black (pluge) and super-white, I have picked the setting that most closely matches other inputs in black level. Then I used 2170P-3 #13/UBOF to adjust black level to match among the inputs: DVD (V5), VCRs (V1, V3), HD (tuner-720p and 1080i), and analog cable SD (tuner-480i). Note that the UBOF setting will be *different* between interlaced and progressive signals from the DVD player.


> Quote:
> Given the user settings, the serv menu tweaks, and the DVD's settings, what order would you go about adjusting things in to get not just the DVD input good, but also as many of the others, too?



I would concentrate first on overall black level (2170P-1, SBRT), a color temp near 6500K (2170P-1, RDRV thru BCUT) and a neutral grayscale. (See my early articles in this thread.) Then calibrate color decoding with what the Avia disk offers (2170P-4, RYR thru GYB).


On top of this foundation, you can then fine-tune for matching black levels among the inputs/devices (2170P-3, UBOF) as well as color level and hue balancing, if needed (2170P-3, UHOF, UCOF). If you find that the blacks are color contaminated in one of your inputs (mine was 1080i HD broadcast = yellowish), you can adjust 2170P-1, CBOF and CROF for blue and red only. YOF is yet another place for black-level balancing, it seems, but I haven't used it.



> Quote:
> 3) Is it that for each combination (eg video 6, 480 p, Movie) for MIDE, the number in the appropriate column points to the column of settings in MID5 that are used for that set of 17 values (the MID5 parameters?). . . . Am I getting this right?



Yep. You have it exactly right. "Getting" this is a requirement for intelligent image tweaking, as I described in Article #12.



> Quote:
> 4) Finally, for someone who doesn't want to spend dozens of hours working on this (and can't given family and work!), could you help me figure out what changes will get the most bang for my buck, and what order to do them in? I figure black level, gamma, white level - reducing VM? Best targets to use from AVIA?



I think you are on the right track. I would go from the global to the specific, and the order in which I wrote the articles implies what order I considered important as I did this. I think gamma is *very* important, as much program material is dead-wrong in contrast in Pro mode. I highly recommend using two or three of the picture modes for your own purposes. For me, I have set Standard - Movie - Pro to be identical except for gamma, with GAMH thru GAML parameters of (respectively) 6 - 3 - 0 (and GAMS = 0). A setting of 3 is dead-on the TV standard of gamma = 2.2 and is what I use the most. But it's nice to have the others available as a simple button-press. Vivid is reserved for experimentation. I have no use for Sony's original settings!


I can't comment on the Avia targets, as I have only the DVE disk. But be sure to use the color-gun controls in 2170P-2 #1/RGBS instead of the hand-held color filters. If you want to start with decent settings, you might try settings of 14-15-7-5 for RYB thru GYB.


The current orthodoxy that "all VM is bad" is dead wrong! Certainly Sony's presets for VM are coarse and ugly, but that just reflects on Sony's lack of sophisticated judgement here, not on what VM potentially can do for image quality. I have increased its finesse and decreased the amount and choose now to use it all the time! It makes a subtle and attractive correction in a fine picture that sharpness enhancement doesn't quite match. See Article #12.


Clarification for Croc: In 2170P-3, VMLV is a temporary setting that is not saved. It always reflects the current ClearEdge VM setting, and if that's set to None, VMLV = 0. VMCR thru VMDL have no effect if ClearEdge VM is set to None. They are how you control the "look" of VM *if* it is applied. Note that some VM seems to be added by other settings that are not under user control, possibly 2170P-3, one or more of F1LV thru CTLV. I keep these set to "no effect", as I don't like what they do to the image.


Overall focus is a compromise between focusing bright objects and focusing dark objects, as the scanning dot "blooms" as it gets bright. I will be writing an improved article #07 soon about how to do this more precisely, including the internal focus control on the HV transformer. QPDC *adjusts* the overall dynamic focus of the screen, and its effect is mostly visible in the center. But other adjustments in the 2170P-4 "QP--" series affect the sides, top & bottom, and corners. Using anything but a 2-dinensional high-contrast pattern will mislead you into focusing wrongly -- don't use the raster lines as a criterion! One could argue that an HD broadcast of a sporting event and its long shots of the crowd might be the best pattern. If you diddle, write down the settings before changing them.


DF and DQF are left-right spot-shape balance controls and should maybe be left alone for now. My article will describe how to adjust them using Sony's official methods.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> SHOF is an sharpness enhancer that artificially shrapens the image, it's best left off since it adds noise to the picture when it's on.



Croc, you misunderstand this. SHOF (which is never *completely* off) is the setup for the Sharpness slider in the user menu, along with SYSM. SYSM is by far the crudest sharpness enhancer, and you might try turning SYSM to 3 (off) and SHOF to 2 or 3 to see the effect. The two *together* seem too much for me, but I think the coarse SYSM is the culprit. In particluar, SYSM is fairly gross on fine detail when set to 1 (max effect). SYSM may have a role in attempting to resurrect really mushy SD video, but it is way overkill for good video.


Note that SHOF has *no* effect when Sharpness is set to 0, but SYSM = 1 or 2 has a minimum effect at aoubt 12-15, softening the image below that. SYSM = 1 can produce strange double edges at some settings. Yecch!


None of these *add* noise. If there is grain or noise in the original video, *any* sharpening will emphasize it along with the picture detail. At a reasonable viewing distance, the eye has no trouble ignoring the noise even if the picture detail has been optimized (sharpened) to taste. Some video has almost no noise at all, and these sharpening controls are then capable of overempahisizing edge detail to the point of nastiness before making noise a problem. Balance is the key.


Again, there are few hard-and-fast rules. Do what suits your eye at a *reasonable* viewing distance, and don't go up-close to the screen on SD material and complain about the noise! The purpose for adjustable sharpness controls is to compensate for sharpness losses in the video material, which varies all over creation, and you should "tune" it until your eyes are pleased as you sit and watch a program or DVD. Think of them as *equalizers.*


If you would please read the PDF of article #12, you will understand more about the image-tuning parameters in 2170P-3 and MID5.


----------



## jasperm

Hi - Thanks for another very clear, helpful post. Regarding the DVD controls, however, there are color controls - I just upgraded from an older Samsung to the pioneer 588a, and it has these video controls:


Sharpness, Brightness, Contrast, Gamma, Hue, Chroma Level, BNR


Haven't tried it yet (it's a Father's Day present, so I don't know about it yet...except that I ordered it, of course) so I can't say how they function.


Michael


----------



## CrocHunter

Yes i know SHOF is not completely off but it looks better at 0 since there is less noise.


----------



## GlenC

This is a great thread and thanks for the efforts in supplying this information. I will need to spend more time reading and studying this.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have determined to my satisfaction that some of the ISF standards are not required to such precision (6500K for example; 6350K would be fine) and the tendency to calibrate a "brightness" level (meaning Picture) is complete nonsense. There is no correct "brightness" of white; what is required depends on taste, the environment, and the particular TV's tendency to bloom at high brightness. These limits are easy to spot.



I would say you are only partially right here. The ISF standards are meaningful targets and rarely can all be achieved. The closer we can adjust all of the parameters, the better the picture will be. Any good ISF calibrator should calibrate to the CIE x/y coordinates where the true D65 = (x = .313/ y = .329), not to 6500K. True, D65 cannot always be achieved, however in calibrating, it is critical that no part of the gray scale goes plus green.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Any good ISF calibrator should calibrate to the CIE x/y coordinates where the true D65 = (x = .313/ y = .329), not to 6500K.



Any chance of translating this into english for those of us who don't speak calibratese?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The closer we can adjust all of the parameters, the better the picture will be. Any good ISF calibrator should calibrate to the CIE x/y coordinates where the true D65 = (x = .313/ y = .329), not to 6500K.



Those precise decimals are very impressive, and I do know exactly what they mean, but . . . how does the *eye* see it? As ADU implies, you are speaking about a TV working backwards from your instruments. Even color temperature in degrees-Kelvin is sort of obscure, except it's the best way to make simple comparisons. Like pounds or inches.


In other words, better according to whom? Closer to what? If you have read what I have written, you know that I agree that there are some parameters that need to be nearly perfect -- good grayscale is one. But I believe that there are common-sense standards that can be achieved fairly easily without paying for "official" ISF calibration. I balk at the notion that there are people with "special knowledge" who need to be hired to make your TV "perfect" and that this is treated occasionally as incontestable religion or at least with considerable snobbery! Maybe -- if you are not technically inclined, are well-heeled, or are undisciplined or impatient with fussy detail. Out of the box, an ISF calibration can transform one of these sets, no question!


But for everyone? I am simply making the case that, for many folks, there are skills that you can learn that will give you long-term control over these excellent sets and how they behave *without* paying for help every time you get it in your head that something's not quite right. You get to pick how far you want to go at this, and you have the personal satisfaction of having done it yourself. My obvious bias is toward self-education rather than "call an expert," and I walk the talk.


Consider: Some ISF techs charge $300 per *input*? Give me a break! The most important setups that determine the overall appearance of the set are *common* to all the inputs. A fairer way to charge would be $ for basic setup and one input, plus $ for each additional input, no?


Further, I read in the AV groups that seem dominated by ISF technicians (not this one) that there is *one* standard for, say, white color temp, and anything that deviates a bit from that is hopelessly off. And no one speaks of correct gamma when, in fact there is an acknowledged standard for that (2.20). Is gamma adjustment part of the ISF calibration? Has anyone tried to watch ABC's dark "Lost" in HD/Pro mode with its gamma of about 2.45?


Back to color. My contention is that there is a range of whites that is satisfactorily perceived as pure white if that illuminant is dominating the vision field, and that there are certain colors that are "contaminants" of that scale that must be minimized (green and not-green/pink). My eyes say loud and clear: front-lighted mid-day (dense) clouds in clean air are really white. (Experts say this is 6100-6500K.) Sunlight, absent any clouds, is warmer. Thin overcast is cool. Yes, I can judge under all of these conditions what the real colors of objects are -- we are evolved to do this after all. But I have had the long-term task of calibrating computer monitors for graphic artists, and I have had to confront head-on "What is white?" This has been is on monitors that "emit" light (CTRs), and so the gray scale is seamlessly continuous with white, true also of CRT TVs and Plasma sets. My mantra has been: "In dim ambient light, eyes adjusted to screen, if it looks white, it *is* white." The other colors displayed are derived by the eye-brain combo as *relative* to this white. And so critical small color tints are correctly perceived.


So now comes my excellent TV and its precise calibrations. I calibrated my 36XS955's "Neutral" to a white point exactly matching front-lighted white clouds, and I made the gray scale as perfect as it can be. I then calculated what a correct color-temp deviation from that would be for Warm and Cool, using high-precision glass photographic filters as a standard, and set Warm to be equivalent to an 85A filter, or a bit less, and Cool to be its opposite. That's a weak salmon or blue-cyan color.


Result? In normal evening viewing conditions, all whites (graphics, blown highlights, pure-white test patterns) appear pure white. Really white. If I switch to Warm, I get used to it with out much trouble; but after an hour or so I can still look at the whites and say, "Y'know, those look a bit warm." Same with Cool: I accept the change without much complaint, but it never looks quite right to me, and I revert to that middle Neutral setting. (If I had preferred either Warm or Cool, I would have altered Neutral to match.)


That confirms more than any measurement that my color-temp settings are correct. Is my white 6500K? Maybe it is; actually I wish I knew someone with a colorimeter so we could measure it. But if it turned out to be 6250K, I wouldn't change it for anything! In viewing a variety of program material, there are *much* bigger problems to solve: black-level anarchy in broadcast SD, color casts and gross oversharpening in HD broadcasts, horrible excess color in a lot of PBS stuff (Jeez!). So after all this trouble, you are still lunging for the Menu button on the remote to make adjustments. But at least the whites are *white.*


----------



## jmccorm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any chance of translating this into english for those of us who don't speak calibratese?



"Show me the money."


----------



## Katmann

So these SONY codes will work as well for my 40" SONY direct view TV ?


If not do such codes exist for this unit ?


Thanks in advance.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any chance of translating this into english for those of us who don't speak calibratese?



Sure, most everyone has seen this in TV reviews that contain the color space triangle. The triangle, where Green is at the top, Red on the right and Blue in the lower left. This triangle represents the colors that phosphors were able to achieve for RGB. Within that triangle exist all of the colors a TV can produce. The triangle is plotted within the CIE color chart by their x/y coordinates. Within the triangle lies a range of values for white, from cool to warm. Movies and film base their whites on D65, therefore we try to achieve a uniform gray scale at D65 for correct reproduction of movies and film. (see attachment)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Those precise decimals are very impressive, and I do know exactly what they mean, but . . . how does the *eye* see it? As ADU implies, you are speaking about a TV working backwards from your instruments. Even color temperature in degrees-Kelvin is sort of obscure, except it's the best way to make simple comparisons. Like pounds or inches.



Well, when you have a colorimeter, you can actually measure the changes and that the eye can detect changes as small as .002, .004 can be very noticeable at times, especially when it is towards green. Without getting into too much detail, 6500K is within a range and can lie anywhere from .29 to .36 on the y axis, however D65 is a specific x/y point, .313/.329. If you have a white at .313/.340, it is still 6500K, however to the eye in comparison to D65, it will be GREEN.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In other words, better according to whom? Closer to what? If you have read what I have written, you know that I agree that there are some parameters that need to be nearly perfect -- good grayscale is one. But I believe that there are common-sense standards that can be achieved fairly easily without paying for "official" ISF calibration. I balk at the notion that there are people with "special knowledge" who need to be hired to make your TV "perfect" and that this is treated occasionally as incontestable religion or at least with considerable snobbery! Maybe -- if you are not technically inclined, are well-heeled, or are undisciplined or impatient with fussy detail. Out of the box, an ISF calibration can transform one of these sets, no question!
> 
> 
> But for everyone? I am simply making the case that, for many folks, there are skills that you can learn that will give you long-term control over these excellent sets and how they behave *without* paying for help every time you get it in your head that something's not quite right. You get to pick how far you want to go at this, and you have the personal satisfaction of having done it yourself. My obvious bias is toward self-education rather than "call an expert," and I walk the talk.
> 
> 
> Consider: Some ISF techs charge $300 per *input*? Give me a break! The most important setups that determine the overall appearance of the set are *common* to all the inputs. A fairer way to charge would be $ for basic setup and one input, plus $ for each additional input, no?



You should be getting what you pay for. An ISF calibrator should have $10K - $15K of equipment to do a proper calibration. Calibrators can charge what they want. The ISF recommended fees start at $225 - $325 for the first input and $125 for additional inputs. I even have this posted on my website.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Further, I read in the AV groups that seem dominated by ISF technicians (not this one) that there is *one* standard for, say, white color temp, and anything that deviates a bit from that is hopelessly off. And no one speaks of correct gamma when, in fact there is an acknowledged standard for that (2.20). Is gamma adjustment part of the ISF calibration? Has anyone tried to watch ABC's dark "Lost" in HD/Pro mode with its gamma of about 2.45?



Yes, for movies and film based material, D65 is correct for accurate reproduction. If it was produced at D65 it should be displayed at D65 to be correct. However for old B&W movies, an additional calibration at D54 may be appropriate.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Back to color. My contention is that there is a range of whites that is satisfactorily perceived as pure white if that illuminant is dominating the vision field, and that there are certain colors that are "contaminants" of that scale that must be minimized (green and not-green/pink). My eyes say loud and clear: front-lighted mid-day (dense) clouds in clean air are really white. (Experts say this is 6100-6500K.) Sunlight, absent any clouds, is warmer. Thin overcast is cool. Yes, I can judge under all of these conditions what the real colors of objects are -- we are evolved to do this after all. But I have had the long-term task of calibrating computer monitors for graphic artists, and I have had to confront head-on "What is white?" This has been is on monitors that "emit" light (CTRs), and so the gray scale is seamlessly continuous with white, true also of CRT TVs and Plasma sets. My mantra has been: "In dim ambient light, eyes adjusted to screen, if it looks white, it *is* white." The other colors displayed are derived by the eye-brain combo as *relative* to this white. And so critical small color tints are correctly perceived.



What you are saying is, you can go outside, look at the clouds, then go inside and look at your TV and say they are the same color, by memory? If you are looking at the clouds through a window, you have a problem. Just put a piece of white paper in front of a mirror and compare the color of the paper to the color of the image of the paper in the mirror.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So now comes my excellent TV and its precise calibrations. I calibrated my 36XS955's "Neutral" to a white point exactly matching front-lighted white clouds, and I made the gray scale as perfect as it can be. I then calculated what a correct color-temp deviation from that would be for Warm and Cool, using high-precision glass photographic filters as a standard, and set Warm to be equivalent to an 85A filter, or a bit less, and Cool to be its opposite. That's a weak salmon or blue-cyan color.
> 
> 
> Result? In normal evening viewing conditions, all whites (graphics, blown highlights, pure-white test patterns) appear pure white. Really white. If I switch to Warm, I get used to it with out much trouble; but after an hour or so I can still look at the whites and say, "Y'know, those look a bit warm." Same with Cool: I accept the change without much complaint, but it never looks quite right to me, and I revert to that middle Neutral setting. (If I had preferred either Warm or Cool, I would have altered Neutral to match.)
> 
> 
> That confirms more than any measurement that my color-temp settings are correct. Is my white 6500K? Maybe it is; actually I wish I knew someone with a colorimeter so we could measure it. But if it turned out to be 6250K, I wouldn't change it for anything! In viewing a variety of program material, there are *much* bigger problems to solve: black-level anarchy in broadcast SD, color casts and gross oversharpening in HD broadcasts, horrible excess color in a lot of PBS stuff (Jeez!). So after all this trouble, you are still lunging for the Menu button on the remote to make adjustments. But at least the whites are *white.*



If you are happy with the way you have white calibrated, then you are set. How uniform is your gray scale tracking from 10IRE, 20IRE.100IRE? what about color decoding, is Red the proper Red? You may be able to get a local ISF calibrator to come evaluate your calibration for a minimal fee or trade for your knowledge in your Sony and the SM adjustments, if he is not experienced with it.


I once read that of all of the recreational golfers, less than 10% can score under 100. it would be great if 10% of TV owners could properly set their TV. I have seen many try to set/calibrate their TV with Avia or DVE and just can't do it, most won't even buy the disc.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You should be getting what you pay for. An ISF calibrator should have $10K - $15K of equipment to do a proper calibration. Calibrators can charge what they want.



Yes, but I don't want their having to buy all this equipment to calibrate any TV they encounter under any lighting conditions to be my $$ problem, and anyone who learns to do *their own particular* TV doesn't have to make it their $$ problem, either. Having to buy all that equipment inflates the cost for setting up any one set considerably: any one customer is subsidizing your ability to set up other sets. *You* have to work with many different sets. But a typical owner has concern with only *one* set -- theirs. They can potentially learn a few tricks and buy *no* equipment at all -- except a good alignment DVD and maybe a memory stick.


> Quote:
> Yes, for movies and film based material, D65 is correct for accurate reproduction. If it was produced at D65 it should be displayed at D65 to be correct.



What does "produced" mean? I see a large proportion of movies and video that have obvious color casts, both accidental and for artistic effect. Are documentaries that show bluish snow or pinkish (real gray) rock "produced" at D65? And what do you think happens to pure white on a DVD or broadcast? You should be satisfying the *eye,* not an arbitrary standard. We are not matching fabric color swatches or printing inks, here, but attempting to reproduce what the real world of movie and video production throws at us.


BTW, you didn't address gamma. You *do* calibrate gamma, right?


> Quote:
> However for old B&W movies, an additional calibration at D54 may be appropriate.



Sheer nonsense! Who told you this? The makers of B/W films had no control over the color of white. Their film didn't record it. The projection systems were whatever color the arc lamps produced, and now are generally xenon-arc. What are you trying to accomplish with D54? The experience of average Joe in a typical theater of 1030-1945? Why would one want to do that? If the whites and all grays are uncontaminated by color, you have done your best, and approx 6500K is perfect! Want it warmer, turn the color-temp control to Warm.


> Quote:
> What you are saying is, you can go outside, look at the clouds, then go inside and look at your TV and say they are the same color, by memory?



You're misrepresenting my method on this entirely! Read my Article #03. I find this procedure very easy to do in a home environment. But you couldn't do this professionally in, say, an industrial environment. Hence the need for colorimetry instruments for *your* purposes.


> Quote:
> If you are happy with the way you have white calibrated, then you are set.



Yes, indeed, and I'm suggesting ways others might get there, too.


> Quote:
> How uniform is your gray scale tracking from 10IRE, 20IRE.100IRE? what about color decoding, is Red the proper Red?



My God, you really haven't read any of the articles, have you? Please do so before you assume I'm a complete novice. "Is red the proper red?" Jeez, this has been beat to death here and in other threads. On this late XS/XBR series of Sony sets, one has only so many parameters that can be adjusted, and you are stuck with the CRT phosphors Sony gave us. One already has to fool around with the three-color gamma settings to get a linear gray scale in the brightness range of relevance. Then you run out of options, and you move on. There are 16 increments in the four color-matrix parameters (RYR, etc.), not 128. You pick the one setting for each that gets the closest, and move on. The *encoding* matrix for HD isn't consistent from broadcast station to station, and theory says that the current CRT phosphors aren't really correct for the HD standard for perfect color anyway. Why are we agonizing over three-decimal-place coordinates in perceptual color space?


A television set is an *entertainment* system, not a precious religious icon! Not an antique violin! Source materials available for consumption vary widely in their perfection, no matter the format. When the TV is correctly adjusted according to common-sense rules that take *vision* into account, what you see can bring great pleasure. That's the point! Garbage will still be garbage. An expensive ISF calibration has to be evaluated in terms of benefit/cost ratio for the *result.* No amount of hand-waving statements about IRE levels (Of course you mean image- *brightness* levels, right? How many people do you think understand IRE levels?), the difference between D65 and 6500K, etc. means squat if the picture does not please the person watching.


My goal has been to suggest ways to achieve the best picture possible with these late XS and XBR CRT sets (and no others!), based on solid principles and sound engineering experience, and then publish what I have done so others can try it. Folks should judge based on the results.


> Quote:
> it would be great if 10% of TV owners could properly set their TV.



The ones who are truly interested had to at least get to this forum, and a subset of those actually dig in and try stuff. Three cheers! Others have two choices: (1) endure what they have purchased, out of the box, having only the User Menu at their disposal; and (2) hire someone to do the work for them at whatever cost. I'm addressing only the folks in this forum; I don't sell any TV-setup services.


----------



## CrocHunter

Thanks to Kentech, my tv set looks 70% better out of the box after doing some service menu changes and using DVE tp calibrate my set... Thanks Kentech










I probably saved myself some money doing the calibration myself too.


----------



## nathan118

I gotta ask how you guys play with the crosshatch screens. I start staring at this stuff and nothing looks good! Do you actually get out a level to see if you've got straight lines? do you measure each box to see if they're all the same? Start from the top and work down??


My only real problem is that 480p material looks like crap compared to 480i. I fooled with different tweaking today, but can't say I came up with anything great. I get a lot of jagged edges. Maybe my 20" samsung using s-video acts as a great anti-aliaser, but I was expecting a lot more from gamecube on component cables in progressive mode.


The same can be said for my dvd player though. 480i output by the dvd player is better than 480p (which is just jaggy city).


----------



## loadams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Katmann* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So these SONY codes will work as well for my 40" SONY direct view TV ?
> 
> 
> If not do such codes exist for this unit ?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.




Sure do.


----------



## GlenC

One last comment. Many calibrators, including ISF, have been calibrating with the aide of optical comparators, and it works. I have a Sony PVM-96 B&W D65 reference monitor to use as such. It's a great backup especially for difficult situations like dark CRT home theaters.


We have no control over poor camera calibrations, poor mastering and post production errors as well as transmission errors, however most movies that are produced and have been produced on film use D65 as a white reference.


Yes, I try to adjust Gamma, when I can. Some TVs just don't have much to work with. Then there is the issue of trying for 2.5 in a dark theater environment or 2.2 with ambient light conditions or the TV won't get any better than 1.75.


> Quote:
> An expensive ISF calibration has to be evaluated in terms of benefit/cost ratio for the *result.*



Exactly, some may want to go play a round of golf or go out to dinner or something other than spending hours trying to learn all of factors needed to do their own calibration, then spend the time doing it. Some people repair their own car, others take it to a mechanic...... I choose to repair my own cars.


> Quote:
> No amount of hand-waving statements about IRE levels (Of course you mean image- *brightness* levels, right? How many people do you think understand IRE levels?), the difference between D65 and 6500K, etc. means squat if the picture does not please the person watching.



IRE levels are simply a percentage white level. 100IRE is full white 0IRE is black (7.5IRE is black for NTSC). 100IRE may be 50 foot lamberts on your TV and only 25 on another. Kind of like full throttle on a Porsche may get 180MPH and on a mini-van 100MPH, but both are full throttle. For whatever reason, TVs have a control that is labeled Brightness who's function is to adjust Black Level. As for various people not wanting to watch a movie with white set to or as close to the D65 reference point as possible, it is their choice. All I am saying here is if white is at or close to the D65 point, then all other colors, assuming no major decoder errors, will fairly accurately represent/reproduce the original film image. As you move away from this point, you are introducing a color shift, usually plus blue.


This forum is for those who want more information, DIY and or modify/enhance their own devices. We are all free to choose how we want to watch what we watch. The same goes for calibrations, some can't do it, some can do it and some just don't want to spend the time to do it.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nathan118* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I gotta ask how you guys play with the crosshatch screens. I start staring at this stuff and nothing looks good! Do you actually get out a level to see if you've got straight lines? do you measure each box to see if they're all the same? Start from the top and work down??



The first rule of crosshatch patterns: Don't obsess! A well-adjusted TV that pleases the viewer will show geometry defects on crosshatch patterns that are *not* apparent in the usual video material. They will, indeed, confirm something you suspect already (major bowing of horizontal lines, barrel distortion left and right, etc.). But little squiggles are best ignored given the imperfect state of all consumer CRT and deflection technology. Try to get the overall pattern square to the screen's edges with the TV oriented in its normal viewing position, and you can try the various internal/service-mode adjustments to minimize any overall trapezoidal or pincushion/barrel distortions. Then go back to watching real video.


For the technically-inclined, the patterns are especially useful for examining the focus of horizontal vs. vertical lines, revealing color-convergence issues, and seeing nonlinearity or wrong aspect ratio in the overall scan. The squares should ideally be *square* most everywhere on the tube. Circles work well, too. But the crosshatch pattern will reveal if the scan lines are being selectively squeezed somewhere on the screen by a nonlinearity problem.


Another particular example: For precisely focusing the newer Sony CRTs, you first should completely defocus the beam (internal adjustment), turn off all but the green gun, and *balance* the width of vertical lines to the left and right of center with one or two service-mode adjustments. Then you move on to precise, fine focus. White crosshatch on black is perfect for this first step. An upcoming article will detail this process.


(Your other questions should probably be in another, more general, thread.)


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IRE levels are simply a percentage white level. 100IRE is full white 0IRE is black (7.5IRE is black for NTSC). 100IRE may be 50 foot lamberts on your TV and only 25 on another. Kind of like full throttle on a Porsche may get 180MPH and on a mini-van 100MPH, but both are full throttle.



I understand this, and what is most important is that IRE is a way of stating how a certain brightness level is represented in the video signal by a specific voltage. Pity that broadcasters don't pay more attention -- they with their waveform monitors and vector scopes! Why does PBS's Friday-evening SD programming require cranking down the Brightness (black level) and Color by about 8-10 points each just to match other stations' appearance?


Given that, different sets with their different CRT and dynamic-focusing technologies are capable of very different maximum brightnesses for 100IRE white. In some sets, as you crank up the brightness ("picture"), the scanning spot bloats (blooms) so much that black detail against white is swallowed up and white text loses all form. Critical viewers must then be satisfied with a less-bright picture.


On the other hand, the newer Sony sets with the fine-pitch tubes have a great combination of electron gun and dynamic focus that allows a superbly-focused bright picture, whites and colors, making for a very satisfying viewing experience. Thus one can enjoy sports on a bright afternoon or a well-produced movie in the evening without taxing the poor tube's abilities.


> Quote:
> As for various people not wanting to watch a movie with white set to or as close to the D65 reference point as possible, it is their choice. All I am saying here is if white is at or close to the D65 point, then all other colors, assuming no major decoder errors, will fairly accurately represent/reproduce the original film image. As you move away from this point, you are introducing a color shift, usually plus blue.



I agree completely! Most sets come adjusted for some outrageously bluish white point approaching 8000-9000K because it makes the colors look super-bright when examined superficially, say in a store. Maybe most buyers simply don't care. But I'll bet they're not in this forum looking for answers and help.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I understand this, and what is most important is that IRE is a way of stating how a certain brightness level is represented in the video signal by a specific voltage. Pity that broadcasters don't pay more attention -- they with their waveform monitors and vector scopes! Why does PBS's Friday-evening SD programming require cranking down the Brightness (black level) and Color by about 8-10 points each just to match other stations' appearance?



The main issues here: HD with a black threshold of 0IRE and SD/NTSC with a 7.5IRE black level. This issue will probably never go away, in our lifetime, as long as older NTSC programming exists.


I usually set up an additional mode for the NTSC programs. This results in my setting/calibrating 4 modes for a TV input on the Sony, HD night and day and NTSC night and day. DVD gets two modes, night and day.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The main issues here: HD with a black threshold of 0IRE and SD/NTSC with a 7.5IRE black level.



Out of the box, these Sonys have mostly compensated for this. I originally found far greater differences between cable channels than between HD and average SD. In any case, if that needs adjusting, one only has to go (for example) to service mode 2170P-3 #13 UBOF to equalize black level among the basic input types and their scan modes. The service-data chart shows what's possible. Also useful: 2170P-1 #2, YOF. An additional compensation for near-black color contamination solves the problem for 1080i on these sets (yellowish on mine).


> Quote:
> I usually set up an additional mode for the NTSC programs. This results in my setting/calibrating 4 modes for a TV input on the Sony, HD night and day and NTSC night and day. DVD gets two modes, night and day.



A bit of overkill for these Sony sets, in my opinion, and not worth the expense. Having set up the HD/memory-stick signal path with a memory stick color-calibration pattern or just the component-video path (V5-V6) with an alignment DVD, SD video of all kinds is quite adequate, as there are more errors and problems with the material than nit-picking the TV can resolve in advance. If the user's high proprity is DVD movies, then DVD alignment disks take into account their own particular DVD player, as well. The memory-stick calibration really handles the HD signal-path very well, to my delight. I regret that the HS420 and HS510 folks don't have memory-stick slots!


Night and day? Why? If the room lighting is bright, turn up Picture about 10 notches and raise black level ("Brightness") a little, until shadow detail is resolved to your liking. How can "calibration" possibly help, here? Wouldn't it be better to teach the customer how to use the user-menu settings to their advantage? I doubt whether anyone following these forums wants their TV set up so as to keep them stupid: "Just push button A for day, and push button B for night."


These settings should be done at the time of viewing, not in advance. The criteria for correct color and gamma don't change from day to night; and they, too, are determined by the program material. The purpose for calibration should be to establish a *baseline* that the user can return to when appropriate (or confused), then make setting changes to suit preferences for the viewing conditions and video material. How does that baseline change from night to day?


I have set up my set so that the midpoint of all of the user-menu sliders ("31") is the best-calibrated position for color, hue (center), and black level (especially BL for HD broadcast). 31 is also my average Picture setting for evening HD and DVD-960i/anamorphic viewing. Progressive modes, some SD broadcasts, and bright afternoons require a higher Picture setting. I have set up three of the four picture modes so that they *only* vary gamma: maximum gamma (as in Pro mode, about 2.45), gamma = 2.2, and gamma = about 2.0 (which I never really use). Gamma = 2.45 makes a lot of SD channels come alive, since the lighting is so flat much of the time. For fine productions on HD and DVD, however, 2.2 seems much more correct to me.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Gamma = 2.45 makes a lot of SD channels come alive, since the lighting is so flat much of the time.



You may already know this Ken, but some of the variation you see in the "brightness" of SD content may be due to different levels of correction (or "undercorrection") used on the source. The basic idea is that the correction used on most high quality content these days is different than it was in the past, to produce more dynamic results and insure that the picture isn't too bright overall in darker home theater like conditions. This is one reason you probably hear alot of complaints about new DVDs or some TV shows looking too dark on some TVs. This is also why a PC interface (the desktop and applications other than the video overlay) will often look rather bright when plugged into a TV-- because it doesn't have the same level of correction as video (unless you make the appropriate adjustment in display properties yourself).

_[Edited to reflect the newer gamma info in Post #343 .]_


----------



## ADU

I wonder if you'd be willing to indulge me in a little experiment. I'm curious to know how gamma works on the memory stick.


Attached are two patterns. One has RGB=127 greys, and the other RGB=106 greys. If my theory above holds true and the memory stick works essentially like a computer input with no undercorrection, the RGB=127 greys will look too bright on your TV and more like a light grey or even an off-white than a "neutral grey". While the RGB=106 greys may perhaps look more neutral.

_[Edit: Based on new info in Post #343 , RGB=106 may not be the right color of grey to use for this test. If there is in fact a specific color of grey that should look "neutral" in standard SMPTE-170M -corrected content (which is probably open to debate), it may perhaps be something a bit higher than 106 (but still less than 127). Bottom line-- in retrospect, this approach to using a particularly color of grey as a benchmark for gamma was probably rather flawed.]_


----------



## ADU

Pattern #2


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You may already know this Ken, but some of the variances you see in the "brightness" of SD content is likely due to different levels of undercorrection used on the source.



I have no perspective on this "undercorrection" issue at all, and your comments are very interesting and welcome!.


Help me with a definition, though. I think in terms of computer-screen gamma, which relates the actual signal voltage to brightness on-screen. CRTs inherently respond nonlinearly to video voltages, and this curvature (deviation from a straight line, 1:1 relationship) has typically been a bit over 2.0. So computer monitors for the PC world have for a long time simply standardized on gamma approximating 2.2, and the sRGB color space, used widely in Windows graphics programs and digital cameras, specifies a gamma of 2.2.


(On the other hand, I exist in the Mac world, and for some reason the Macintosh display standard is gamma = 1.8. Go figure. I can twiddle all of this in the Displays driver software part of the O/S.)


But I don't understand your use of the term "net gamma." Do you mean the ratio of video material's *design* or intended gamma and the display? All through the production chain, replete with precision monitors and vectorscopes and waveform monitors, the monitor gamma = 2.2, and I would imagine producers make judgements based on what they see on those monitors. Based on the whole notion of having some "calibrated" base to use as a touchstone, I would imagine having 2.2 as an available choice is a really good idea. How does this relate to what you said?


[Later Addnedum: I just discovered your gamma-etc. thread and links. (Why haven't I seen this before?) I see (1) my understanding of gamma needs to be more sophisticated, and (2) I have some reading to do tomorrow!]


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wonder if you'd be willing to indulge me in a little experiment. I'm curious to know how gamma works on the memory stick. Attached are two patterns.



With pleasure! And if you haven't already gotten the tool that lets you easily ascertain your own screen's gamma, the patterns I posted in Post #29 are the key. (Use Pro mode only -- NO vertical sharpening!)


Forgive me if you've already said this -- Am I right that you don't have a MS slot? Or just haven't sprung for a stick yet? (I'm sure these patterns can be adapted to JPEG-on-CD or stills on DVD. I just haven't done it yet.)


----------



## ADU

My TV supports memory stick, but I don't use it because I have a computer connected via the DVI port.


"Net gamma" or "viewing gamma" is my term for the end result that you actually see on the screen after file/source, system, and monitor gamma are all combined. It's the same thing this guy describes as "total gamma" at the end of this webpage:

http://exviking.net/back/monitor/gamma_2.htm 

_[Edit: And the same thing this other page refers to as the "end-to-end exponent".]_


He probably gives a better explanation of it than I can, and the reasons video is undercorrected at the source to insure the picture isn't too bright on your TV.


Math has never been my forte, so its taken me quite awhile to get my mind around some of this stuff, especially the difference between file/source, system, monitor and _perceived_ gamma (and I may still have some of it wrong.) When people start talking power curves, and 1.8 vs 2.2 vs. 2.5, I start to get confused, so it's often easier for me think in terms of the end result being displayed on the screen, and how that relates to the brightness of midtones in the image.

_[Edited to reflect the newer gamma info in Post #343 .]_


----------



## ADU

Before I sign off I'll be adventurous and take one crack at explaining undercorrection as best I understand it.


Most CRTs have an exponent (or "display gamma") of about 2.2 to 2.5. When a high contrast CRT (like a TV) is viewed in very dim surroundings though, its midtones tend to appear much brighter (due to a phenomena known as either "simultaneous contrast" or "the surround effect"), and the perceived gamma of the picture is brighter by comparison to the surroundings. So instead of using a 1/2.2 or 1/2.5 correction to perfectly compliment the CRT gamma, modern TV cameras "shortchange" the correction a little, and use only about 1/2.0 correction to keep the end viewing gamma on the screen more in the 1.1 to 1.25 range (2.2/2.0=1.1 and 2.5/2.0= 1.25). This makes the picture slightly darker which is more comfortable to your eyes in the dim surroundings typical of nighttime home viewing, and it also increases the sense of depth and contrast in the picture, giving highlights and explosions more "pop".


The 1/2.0 (or ~.5) correction is relatively new though (probably a few decades old). In the past, the correction was more in the 1/2.2 (.45) or 1/2.5 (.4) range which meant that older NTSC video was a little "brighter" looking than most video now (2.2 CRT gamma x .4 or .45 correction = ~.9 or 1.0 viewing gamma). The gamma correction is different now I guess because more people are watching hi-contrast screens in darker home theater-like settings than in the 1950's when this stuff was originally worked out.


This unfortunately also means that the picture is a bit darker and less watchable during the day, when there tends to be more ambient light. Hence the addition of "Vivid" modes to TVs and DVD players, which boost white level and midtones to compensate. Glen's daytime/nighttime calibration scheme probably works in much the same way. The daytime calibration and Vivid modes on the TV/player are designed to compensate for the _undercorrection_ applied in the video source for better nighttime viewing. At least I think that's the way all this jazz works.

_[Edited to reflect the newer gamma info in Post #343 .]_


----------



## loadams

Man, I need some Excedrin now.


----------



## ADU

Yeah, maybe I shouldn't even have brought this up.







Ignorance is bliss and Gamma can be a rather hairy topic.


If the gamma patterns in Post #29 are really telling you your monitor has a gamma of 2.45, that may not be so bad for certain types of content. If you change this near 2.5 exponent of the monitor to 2.2 using the gamma controls in the service menu, you may be brightening the picture on the TV more than needed for some video material (especially older NTSC content with brighter gamma), and sacrificing some of the contrast and depth on the display.


I'm not at all sure of this though. Maybe the patterns in Post #29 aren't telling you the monitor's gamma, but rather the "system" gamma of the memory stick (eek!).


Another thing to consider is whether you really want precisely the industry standard gamma on these TVs, or not. It's possible that you might want the midtones dialed up a bit (as you've already done) to compensate for some of the weaker points in the tube's design, especially black "purity" issues like phosphor lag, poor grey scale calibration, and internal reflections which tend to drown out and muddy up the "shadow detail" on these TVs.


As mentioned earlier, brightening the midtones/gamma is one way of compensating for a dimmer screen in a bright surround. And its possible you might want a little brighter than usual surround with these Sonys to hide the effects of phosphor lag on the screen. So that may be where the gamma adjustment is helping as well-- to compensate for slightly brighter than usual surrounding illumination for a home theater setting.


I guess this is a long way of saying that you may have made the right adjustment, but possibly for the wrong reasons(?) By boosting the midtones on the Pro mode though, you're kind of doing the exact same thing the Sony engineers already did in their Standard and/or Vivid picture mode on the TV. So there may be a bit of reinventing the wheel going on with these particular adjustments. Sony is obviously aware of all the issues above, and that may be precisely why they provided various "enhancements" to gamma/etc. that they did in their Standard and Vivid modes*.


Brightening the midtones does mean sacrificing some contrast/depth on the display though.

(*Footnote: Perhaps that may also be why they're biasing their gamma curve a little with GAMS, to pull more detail up out of the darker areas of the picture... if GAMS is indeed a bias control.)

_[Edited to reflect the newer gamma info in Post #343 .]_


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Attached are two patterns. One has RGB=127 greys, and the other RGB=106 greys. If my theory above holds true and the memory stick works essentially like a computer input with no undercorrection, the RGB=127 greys will look too bright on your TV and more like an off-white than a neutral grey. While the RGB=106 greys will look more neutral.



I just converted these to JPGs and viewed them on my TV at gamma = 2.2 as I have calibrated it. Also checked them out on my computer screen set to gamma = 2.2.


They look the same on computer and TV. The gray 106 (where 0 = black and 255 = white) is darker than the gray I associate with "50%" gray, and 127 looks about what I think is mid-gray. Neither is even close to white or off-white. If that were true, I would suspect "very" inappropriately low gamma or brightness-limiting in the video circuit!


I'm sorry some folks may be put off by this technical spinoff on gamma, but knowledge is power, here -- meaning one can take control of the TV and make what you choose to watch more attractively displayed. I think the time has arrived for a gamma control, and I regret having to take over two or three of the picture modes to do it. But this *does* do it. Having this control means, say, when sitting down to enjoy an episode of "Lost" on ABC:


(1) Reset black ("Brightness") to 31, then tweak it until there are no "black holes" and I can see shadow detail. This varies from one HD station to another, but not by much.

(2) Set "Picture" so blown-out whites and beach scenes aren't blindingly bright to my "evening" eyes.

(3) Choose the gamma the makes everything look okay to me. That's generally my current "middle" position of 2.2, which I have assigned to "Movie."


"Lost" is generally balanced sort of dark, and these settings work well. Works for CSI/Miami, too. But not for a couple of documentaries I have seen on PBS-HD, where the maxinum gamma (2.45) made the picture appear most realistic.


I *really* believe in the concept of a great baseline calibration, and then one should have the controls available to "tune" the display for the particular program or DVD you're watching. Your eyes don't lie, and they're *all* you have to please! Sharp focus, correct color decoding (no color push), available image enhancement if appropriate -- all are part of this baseline.


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ADU*
As I think about it, this statement I made eariler may be slightly off the mark:If the gamma patterns in Post #29 are really telling you your monitor has a power curve of 2.45, that may be close to what you want for standard video with an undercorrection of 1.25.
I get what you mean by "net gamma" and "undercorrection" now. If the "1.25" hypothesis is true, it is certainly a current issue, since gamma = 2.45 really improves almost all SD video of whatever source. So I use it when it looks better, which is the point of having it as a choice.
Quote:

I'm not at all sure of this though. Maybe the patterns in Post #29 aren't telling you the monitor's gamma, but rather the "system" gamma of the memory stick (eek!).
Well, yes: we have to treat the TV as a "black box" having inputs (the video connectors and tuners) and an output (the screen). The published technical block diagram of the set (attached) strongly implies that the first part of this signal-handling chain from input to screen is *common* for memory stick and the HD tuner. Rather late in the chain, the common CXA2170 signal-processing chip handles the gamma parameters that are adjustable in service mode, and it does this *just* before passing the video to the CRT video-interface board. I am hard-put to believe that the engineers built in "special" gamma processing for different inputs *early* in the chain (your worry, right?), as it seems to make no sense, especially economically; and provision has been made to store a unique gamma-parameter set for each of 17 different input/scan/picture-mode combinations. Implication: one gamma-processing step that we can adjust in code group 2170P-4.


I can't simulate an SD cable signal, and it's a huge pain to build test patters for perfect playing on a DVD player. But my viewing experience confirms that there are no surprises when switching between an excellent DVD and good HD broadcasts. So I am trusting what the test patterns show and the MS slot for calibration until I have substantial evidence to the contrary. (In fact, I currently find that the color-matrix calibration through the MS slot pleases me more than the one on the DVE DVD. Go figure.)

 

XS955|XBR960 Block Diagram.pdf 139.0234375k . file


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You may actually want the midtones dialed up a bit (as you've already done) to compensate for some of the weaker points in the tube's design, especially black "purity" issues like phosphor lag, poor grey scale calibration, and internal reflections which tend to drown out and muddy up the "shadow detail" on these TVs. If I had to take a guess I'd say that the reason your slight gamma adjustment in the SM looks good on some content is because it compensates somewhat for these other problems with the blacks on the Sonys, rather than "correcting the gamma on your monitor to conform with the '2.2 standard'. . . . boosting the midtones is also a way of compensating for a dimmer screen in a bright surround. And in my experience you really need a brighter than usual surround with these Sonys to hide the effects of phosphor lag on the screen. So that may be where the gamma adjustment is helping you as well-- to compensate for slightly brighter than usual surrounding illumination for a home theater setting.



This is very likely the case. I have a critical eye, and the final result is all that matters to me. It may well be that the "2.2" standard is of no real consequence and I am really just tweaking gamma for the viewing conditions. At least the gamma measurement lets me know where the TV stands relative to production monitors and my computer screen (Mitsubishi Diamontron 21" CRT).


> Quote:
> I guess this is a long way of saying that you may have made the right adjustment, but for the wrong reasons. By boosting the midtones on the Pro mode though, you're kind of doing the exact same thing the Sony engineers already did in their Standard picture mode on the TV.



Oh, I agree! Except Sony "polluted" those other modes with so many other "enhancements" (e.g. dynamic picture contrast, obnoxious and coarse VM). I guess I am trying to establish what effects I want and what I don't. Gamma control seems essential all by itself.


> Quote:
> Footnote: That may also be why they're biasing their gamma curve a little with GAMS, to pull more detail up out of the darker areas of the picture... if GAMS is indeed a bias control.



Haven't quite figured out exactly what GAMS does, but it seems to barely affect black level and raise the top brightness; and so it appears to add a linear slope to the gamma curve, doing what a little boost of the Picture slider would also do. For now I am leaving 2170P-4/GAMS at 0 for all combinations.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> I just converted these to JPGs and viewed them on my TV at gamma = 2.2 as I have calibrated it. Also checked them out on my computer screen set to gamma = 2.2.
> 
> 
> They look the same on computer and TV. The gray 106 (where 0 = black and 255 = white) is darker than the gray I associate with "50%" gray, and 127 looks about what I think is mid-gray. Neither is even close to white or off-white.



Hmm... if that's really the case, then perhaps the memory stick may have some built-in correction, to conform the computer-created JPEGs more closely to corrected video. _[Edit: Or not... still not quite sure about this.]_


The DVI port doesn't seem to work quite like that, probably because it's designed to input high-def video which has already been pre-corrected before it arrives, rather than inputting directly from a computer. This is supported by the fact that DVDs in a computer _video overlay_ look "correct" via DVI. Whereas the computer interface itself and other apps look much too bright on the TV (without some adjustment to the desktop gamma).

_[Edited to reflect the newer gamma info in Post #343 .]_


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you want some more links to explore on the subject though, there are some here:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post3555581



Thank you! Highly recommended reading for all (until your head aches, of course). I am happy to be prompted to re-read Poynton, whose articles I read a couple of years ago when I was trying to wrap my mind around the issues of digital-image manipulation and monitor calibration, important to my consulting business. Some of these links seem to be broken or deeply archived, and more digging is necessary.


Please note row #7 in the table here, regarding "gamma correction":
http://www.poynton.com/notes/color/GammaFQA.html 


Maybe the "linear segment" referred to here is the purpose of 2170P-4/GAMS! Available if we want it. Very informative.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The DVI port doesn't seem to work quite like that, probably because it's designed to input high-def video which has already been 1.25 pre-corrected before it arrives



But has it? Maybe it is entirely at the whim of the technical production folks. Much HD seems way too dark in the mid-tones for the "pro" gamma = 2.45 setting, even in evening lighting, and I am motivated to switch to the 2.2 setting I have arranged. (The ABC "Lost" example I mentioned.) At this point, I have given up on predicting this, and it is why I believe in the easy availability of a gamma adjustment.


----------



## GlenC

One thing I will input here is, I played golf one day with a guy that worked for the color lab that did the postproduction HD processing of ABC's Alias. I was told that the show was intentionally dark. I don't know why they want to do that, but they do. Many others seem off also, NCIS always seemed dark and over saturated with color. When I start to question my calibration settings, I switch to HDNET and every thing goes back to the calibrated settings and looks great. I guess it's just Artistic


----------



## ADU

Anything is possible. It's quite possible that the broadcasters are mucking things up a bit. Maybe PBS is only using .45 correction on their content, for example, and that's why their broadcasts seem brighter and need a darker gamma setting on the TV. Or maybe some stations are clipping their palettes and others aren't. When it comes to the world of broadcasting I suppose it's anybody's guess.


I've found pretty good consistency among DVDs though. Ie, the well-authored ones all seem to work more or less correctly with about the same gamma adjustment on the TV. The only noteworthy exceptions to this that I've found are some old telecasts, and bargain DVDs transfered from older NTSC material which look brighter, and probably used the .4 to .45 correction.


I'm not sure if a reliable baseline can be established from the HD broadcasts. But it should be possible for DVDs. And if the HD is being broadcast correctly it should be using the same gamma as DVDs. If it's not, then they're deviating from the standard (which is quite possible).


If I could figure out what's happening with the gamma on the memory stick, then I could probably use that to establish a baseline gamma for DVDs. If RGB=127 looks like a 50% neutral grey on the memory stick, then I think either you may have the contrast set rather low on your TV, or the memory stick could be applying a correction to the JPEG files to darken them up a bit for better viewing on a TV, similar to the undercorrection used in video cameras. JPEG and other computer-based images will look unnaturally bright on a TV screen unless there's a correction applied to them somewhere along line. This correction doesn't have to be occuring in the TV btw. There could be a color-conversion when files are transfered to the stick.


IAC, here's what I'd suggest to try to resolve this. First fix your ambient light in stone, and make it bright enough so that phosphor lag on the CRT isn't distracting. Then adjust the white level (Picture) on your TV so the RGB=127 grey bars on the memory stick look like a perfectly neutral grey to your eye, with a density exactly between the white and the black bars. As you make this contrast adjustment also insure that the black level (Brightness) is set correctly on the TV as well. Black level will drift on the Sonys as you change the white level/contrast.


Once you're satisfied that the RGB=127 grey is as neutral as it can be, and your black level is also correctly set, then watch some good DVDs, using a player with the same black level as the memory stick (probably 0-IRE). And make sure the player is in its standard picture configuration and applying no add'l enhancement of its own. Here are a few DVDs I'd recommend:


Star Wars ANH

Star Wars AOTC

Star Wars ESB

Underworld

Sky Captain & the World of Tommorrow

Gladiator

Appleseed

An American Werewolf in London

Hulk

Jurassic Park III

Shrek 1 & 2

Chronicles of Riddick

Alien (the 2003 edition)

Titan AE

Ghosts of Mars

The Incredibles


I'm going by memory here, but all of the above seemed to me to have about the same gamma correction. THX mastered DVDs probably have the most consistent gamma correction across the board.


How do they look? (Try to ignore any issues with phosphor lag, internal reflections, etc. and focus on just just the gamma curve of the picture). Do the midtones seem a little overpowering, not bright enough or do they look just right? They should all leave you with the same impression. Either too dark, too bright, or just about right.


If they all look just about right, then the memory stick could perhaps be tweaking the gamma on your JPEG files to approximate the _pre-corrected_ video of other inputs. If they look too dark, then that may mean there's no correction on the memory stick.

_[Edited to better reflect the more updated info on gamma in Post #343 .]_


----------



## ADU

Another tip that you may or may not have run across yet... The DVI input on some (or maybe all) of these Sony TVs has a different color saturation than the analog inputs. This is something that can be identified using the color decoder tests and fixed by making an adjustment to 2170P-4/SCOL. Raising SCOL 5 units higher for DVI than the analog inputs fixed the problem on my TV. YMMV though.


Since the memory stick is also a digital input it could have a different saturation than the analog inputs as well. Comparing the color decoder patterns on a component input to the memory stick should confirm or deny this.


FWIW, the procedures I used to identify and make this correction for DVI are in post #2 and post #19 of this other thread. A similar approach may also work for the memory stick.


DO NOT SIMPLY TRANSCRIBE THE VALUES SHOWN IN THESE POSTS FOR YOUR OWN TV! I'm using a different signal path and color offsets for my DVI input than most TVs, so the values shown will probably not work exactly right for your TV. If you follow the procedures outlined though, you should be able to determine the correct adjustments for your own TV. (Use any other info in the links above entirely at your own peril btw.)


----------



## KenTech

ADU, in response to several of your points:


> Quote:
> Neither is even close to white or off-white.
> 
> Hmm... if that's really the case, then I suspect the memory stick may indeed have it's own built-in correction, to conform your computer-created JPEGs more closely to 1.25-corrected video.



To clarify, I know what "50%" gray looks like in a digital image, and I mean what I see for a *digital brightness* of 50%, not what a light-meter would measure as 50% of white (minus-one f-stop). Your 50% = 127 gray bar = a tone of gray on my calibrated computer monitor = the same tone on the TV thru memory stick, gamma set to 2.2


Now I have run a test where I have created an orthodox DVD with still images precisely derived from my existing test patters, including the "current-gamma" pattern. When I play that on my DVD player, adjusting for a correct black level, the measured gamma is -- guess what? -- 2.2. I.e. there seems to be no change in gamma between MS patterns and one fed in thru the DVD player.


Again, unless there is definite proof, and the above seems not to show any, I have to believe that there is no manipulation of gamma among the different analog inputs, MS, and ATSC tuner. (HDMI not tested.) As far as I can tell, the gamma exhibited by this set is totally orthodox for all inputs, being about 2.45 native, and it can be decreased by increasing the settings for GAMR, GAMG, and GAMB above 0. Further hand-wringing isn't going to reveal anything new. The display of known DVD movies is totally satisfactory, even extraordinary! I have seen Shrek-1, Monsters, Inc, and several other on your list, plus the restaurant scene on DVE. All are gorgeous! Digital photos whose characteristics I know well from having prepared them are gorgeous. What more can I say? The tones are correctly rendered.


Rather than agonize over whether a certain source or broadcast has used this ot that compensation, I adjust things until the picture is as good as it's going to be, and then I enjoy the show. I admit to being quite anal about these things, but, Jeez, at some point one has to shoot the technician and get on with the show! (or take a pill, have a glass of wine, whatever works . . .)


> Quote:
> I've found pretty good consistency among DVDs though. Ie, the well-authored ones all seem to work more or less correctly with about the same gamma adjustment on the TV.



My experience, too. Generally, I'm impressed.


> Quote:
> If I could figure out what's happening with the gamma on the memory stick, then I could probably use that to establish a baseline gamma for DVDs. If RGB=127 looks like a 50% neutral grey on the memory stick, then either you've got the contrast set exceptionally low on your TV, or the memory stick is applying a correction to the JPEG files to darken them up a bit for better viewing on a TV, similar to the undercorrection used in video cameras.



No, no! I think you are reading too much into this, and that your definition of 50% isn't the same as mine. The above recent test appears to show that MS is a decent baseline for my DVD-thru-component connection, and I now think it is good for HD broadcast, too, given the way the set is wired.


> Quote:
> JPEG and other computer-based images will look unnaturally bright on a TV screen unless there's a correction applied to them somewhere along line.



Well, but that would be the overall correction of gamma = 2.2, which matches pretty much a Windows computer. Jpegs on MS appear quite normal, straight from the camera (sRGB colorspace, gamma = 2.2).


> Quote:
> There could be a color-conversion when files are transfered to the stick.



Not any more than if the image is stored on a hard drive. The digital file is just *stored,* not modified.


> Quote:
> Since the memory stick is also a digital input it could have a different saturation than the analog inputs as well. Comparing the color decoder patterns on a component input to the memory stick should confirm or deny this.



One of the MS patterns I use is the same as the DVE color-setup: six basic color blocks at 75% surrounded by 75% gray. The MS calibration is *slightly* different from one done for DVD -- but the latter adds an entire DVD player into the mix. HD broadcast seem to have a slight red push when I use the DVD's color setup, and perfect when I use the MS color setup. I'm trusting the MS setup for now. (I calibrated "Default" for MS, and "Monitor" for DVD.) The color level (saturation) and Hue are identical to the DVD player.


I have no way of evaluating the HDMI input at this time and it currently plays no part in my use of the TV. So I'm saving your comments on this for the future reference, thanks!


----------



## ADU

Not that this will necessarily have any bearing on anything, but I used the gamma pattern from post #29 (actually I created my own pattern using the same values with a little larger swatches, attached at the bottom) to check the gamma on my DVI port, and it seems pretty close to 2.2 (This is in Pro picture mode with GAMMA at 0 in the service menu). The 2.27 swatch is probably closest, though maybe a hair brighter, so it's probably in the neighborhood of 2.25 or 2.26. (2.44 is noticeably brighter and not really in the ballpark.)


One thing I noticed while doing some more reading on gamma is the black level can very easily skew the results. If it's set too high it'll produce a lower gamma reading, and if it's set to low it'll produce a higher reading. [Edit: white level and black level "enhancements" on the TV could similarly skew the results.]


FWIW, the way I set black level for my DVI input is by comparing an RGB=0 image to a 0-voltage area of the screen. This is pretty easy on my TV because its configured with a "fixed height" aspect ratio smaller than the screen. Ie, the raster is scaled down in the vertical axis to a 2.35AR (not somethin I'd really recommend to others, especially those concerned about burn-in.) So there's 0-voltage above and below the picture. This black level adjustment was done in the normal ambient light used for viewing btw, not with all the lights turned off.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> To clarify, I know what "50%" gray looks like in a digital image, and I mean what I see for a *digital brightness* of 50%, not what a light-meter would measure as 50% of white (minus-one f-stop). Your 50% = 127 gray bar = a tone of gray on my calibrated computer monitor = the same tone on the TV thru memory stick, gamma set to 2.2



I guess I'm not referring to "digital brightness" then. What I'm really interested in is the perceived brightness. Ie, whether it looks like a neutral grey to your eye on the TV (forgettin how it looks on a computer monitor), and appears to have a brightness/density exactly midway between the black and white. RGB=127 probably _shouldn't_ look neutral on a TV unless it's gamma is too high (ie midtones too dark), or contrast is too low, or the gamma of that input is being manipulated in some special way. On a computer monitor, in brighter ambient light... yes, then it should look neutral. On a TV though I think it should look lighter. Or at least I think that's pretty much what the whole simultaneous contrast/surround effect/undercorrection thing is all about. Maybe I shouldn't have brought this up though, because it just seems to be creating unnecessary confusion.


> Quote:
> Now I have run a test where I have created an orthodox DVD with still images precisely derived from my existing test patters, including the "current-gamma" pattern. When I play that on my DVD player, adjusting for a correct black level, the measured gamma is -- guess what? -- 2.2. I.e. there seems to be no change in gamma between MS patterns and one fed in thru the DVD player.



Cool. I wish it hadn't been necessary to adjust black level in between, but I'm guessin that was needed because the DVD player or input had a different black level than the memory stick. IAC, if they give a similar gamma reading, that would probably indicate that there is no special gamma correction occurring on the memory stick.


----------



## ADU

Before we go any further, I wanna stop and say thanks, Ken. I dunno if this discussion has helped anyone else, but it has definitely helped to resolve a few issues in my mind, thanks in part to your input on some of my hand-wringing.










I think you've been doin a great job here.


----------



## CrocHunter

Your not the only one he helped, thanks to ken my PQ now looks comparable to the sony's with the super fine pitch tube, and i only have the 34hs420 version


----------



## ADU

Okay I found an article which hopefully will shed a bit more light on some of this gamma stuff we've been discussing.

http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG-GammaAppendix.html 

_[Edit: The above link (as well as some of Poynton's links) show the typical CRT gamma as "2.5", when it probably should have been "2.2". This more current version of the above document from Post #343 shows more recent and probably more correct values and info than the w3.org link above.]_


As this link explains, the objective of the newer ~.5 correction is to produce a picture on your TV with a darker final screen gamma to normalize it for viewing in a "dim surround". (Pretty much what I've been tryin to say all along.)


If maximum depth and contrast for nighttime viewing is your goal (and it may not be in everyone's case), then you generally wouldn't want to _brighten_ the midtones on the TV via the gamma controls in the service menu, because that would tend to undo some of the depth/contrast enhancement in the source.


Recent Sonys (some of them anyway) could be a slightly special case though, as we've discussed, because they seem to have problems at the lower end of the color spectrum due to greater phosphor persistence, etc. So there might (and this is mostly conjecture on my part) possibly be some advantage in dialing up the midtones via the gamma controls in the service menu so the image is more watchable in brighter ambient light.


This is pretty much what the Standard and Vivid modes on the TV are already designed to do. Though I acknowledge that they could also incorporate some other less-desirable enhancements as well.


Always adjust Brightness last btw to insure proper black levels after making any changes to ambient light, contrast, etc.


Phew...I think I need a martini now.









_[Edited to reflect the newer gamma info in Post #343 .]_


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Phew...I think I need a martini now.



There, there. Everything is really going to turn out OK. Just rest . . . rest . . . 


All calm now? OK. I read the article, and it is very informative for technogeeks like us, but, Dude, I think you are way-obsessing over this gamma thing. If we were calibrating a multi-million-dollar broadcast studio so folks couldn't complain about *our* standards, I would spend more time at this. But I am watching material from the real world of commercial broadcast and DVD, and the end result I want is for it to be displayed so as to bring me the greatest pleasure in my evening-illuminated living room.


This requires that I have *some* control over things like gamma, and I am delighted that this TV allows you to set up a couple of the "picture modes" to differ only in gamma. I get to pick. Again, last night, watching a documentary on the History Channel about Wake Island, I reached desperately for the remote so I could dial in all the gamma I had -- 3.0 would have not been out of line with this ultra-flat video! But that would have made a following HD program, say Lost or CSI/Miami, look hopelessly dark. And so I grab for the remote again . . .


Without some control, there's no hope. It's what *looks right,* and I think you can really get there with this set by tweaking a bit for each program!


----------



## loadams

Damn, I need some more Excedrin !!!


----------



## KenTech

*13.1 - PRECISION FOCUSING: ACCESSING THE INTERNAL FOCUS CONTROL*


A precision focus adjustment just isnt possible without making sure the internal focus adjustment is set correctly. Mine wasnt! If the back were off the set, this would be easy. But getting the back off is clumsy and has its damage hazards (breaking the CRT neck being one!) . . . and it turns out not to be necessary.


The main Focus control is a simple cross-slotted screwdriver-adjustable plastic knob at the bottom-right-rear of the set, on the side of the high-voltage transformer, about 4 inside the right-rear corner. It aims horizontally, not to the right or rear, but toward the corner at about 45º. All one needs to do is insert a slender screwdriver thru a small hole in the side of the case to get to it.


(0) Assumptions. You are working on a Sony 36XS955 or a set with similar construction. SInce they use many identical chassis parts and circuit boards, this group likely includes all 4:3 sets and widescreens in the XS955 and XBR960 series, and also the 34XBR910. See (2) below to visually confirm if your set complies. Sony does not reinvent this HV-Focus subsystem for each set, and these instructions may apply to a wide range of sets, including the HS420 and HS510 series as well. Bottom line: If you cant see the Focus knob thru the slots, dont go drilling anywhere! If its in the predicted location, have at it. (The cooling slots may be different.)


(1) Youll need: a 1/8 - 5/32 drill bit and a variable-speed drill; a flashlight; and an appropriate screwdriver 1/8 flat blade with 1/8 shaft of 5 or longer. This longish, skinny screwdriver is not easily available at your usual Home Depot. Try an electronics-supply store (not Radio Shack), and look for Xcelite #R186V, quite common. Use the longer #R188V in a pinch. A plastic GC #8195 or 8987 will work, too, but the obnoxious springiness of the plastic shaft makes fine adjustments sort of sloppy. Youll also need to get your face up against this part of the cabinet, so position the set appropriately.


(2) Examine the attached JPEG images, and survey the landscape for yourself before starting. We are working on the right side, near the rear corner, about 2-3/4 above the very bottom of the case. Fig.1 shows the working area. If you shine a flashlight in and to the left at position #2 and peer closely thru the slots in area #1, youll see the gray plastic hulk of the HV transformer and the Focus control as the *upper* dark-gray adjustment knob, as pictured in Fig.2. The bottom knob (Screen) is sealed with white glop and should NOT be touched. Sonys drawing of the whole transformer is in Fig.3.


(3) Carefully drill a hole thru the right end of the 8th open slot from the bottom, as shown in Fig.1, location #2. Dont go straight in, but aim the drill about 45º from the right, aiming to the left and slightly down. Theres nothing just inside the case to wreck, so dont be paranoid. But go slow and stop when the drill just goes through maybe 1/2. Then continue to operate the drill a bit in-place and move the drill around to enlarge the hole slightly to give the screwdriver some wiggle room. (If the drill bit were chucked into a handle of some sort, this could even be done by hand, as the plastic is soft and you are starting in an existing slot.)


(4) While peering into the case thru the slots in area #1 and shining the light in nearby, insert the screwdriver thru the hole and in about 4, connecting with the end of the slotted knob. (If the shaft binds in the hole, remove it and ream out the hole a bit with the drill.) Insert the blade into one of the slots, and youre in! Your screwdriver has now become the Focus control! You can leave it this way while you work on the set, but push slightly inward when you grab it or itll fall out of the knob. Dont worry about electric sparks and such from inside; theres nothing metal or electrically charged nearby. Just dont be hamfisted about this, and work sensibly. Its really amazingly easy and is a valuable asset to getting the TV adjusted *right.*

 

Part1_Figures.zip 397.119140625k . file


----------



## KenTech

*13.2 - PRECISION FOCUSING: A RECOMMENDED PROCEDURE*


This procedure follows Sony's method fairly closely because it works very well and takes into account Sony's wisdom about its own products. In particular, focusing is a balancing act between optimizing fine mid-brightness detail and avoiding blooming (bloating) of the scanning spot in very bright areas. Attached are recommended patterns that can be loaded via memory stick, played from a DVD player as JPEG-on-CD, or displayed via HDMI from a computer. Important: You want to get the vertical pixel-count right: 1080 for MS and maybe computer, and 480 for JPEG (or maybe computer - experiment). I don't know a single pattern on DVE that will work as well as the MS patterns for the fine-pitch CRTs in the XS and XBR sets. HS420 sets and the like will have to use what you can find or use the DVD/CD images.


We're going to work simultaneously with service-mode codes and with the physical Focus control. We'll be using a green-only display to eliminate any confusion possibly caused by misconvergence.


PREPARATION:


(1) With power OFF, insert the screwdriver into the Focus control knob, as described in the first part of this article. Leave it in place. Unless you have very long arms, a small hand-mirror will be a helpful asset. If you knock the screwdriver out of whack while working with it, just get the flashlight and reinsert it. No need to power down and lose whatever youve done up to that point.


(2) Load the test images onto a memory stick if you have that feature, or onto other media, and verify that they display properly. (You can try the patterns on DVE or Avia for white crosshatch and focus. Watch out: I note some of the patterns on DVE are NOT sharp as recorded!)


(3) Put the TV into service mode. Go to 2170D-4 and WRITE DOWN the existing settings for #0-8, QPAM thru DQP.


(4) Display the CrosshatchPlusDots pattern. Set Pro picture mode, Sharpness = 15, Picture = 40, ClearEdge OFF, and adjust Brightness for a very slight glow to the black background (i.e. a normal black level). Go to 2170P-2/#1 RGBS, and set it to 2 for a green display. Use the pattern PlugePlusExtremeGray to help with black level, if necessary.


THE METHOD:


Dynamic focusing of the beam apparently uses two mechanisms. Sony would have us completely disable the Dynamic Focus (DF) mechanism by shorting a pair of contacts on the main deflection board, and then adjust the Dynamic Quadrapole (DQ) settings; but we can't do that. Since the two mechanisms interact almost completely, compensating for each other, we are going to set DF according to suggested defaults from the manual, and proceed with Dynamic Quadrapole Focus adjustments.


(1) Look at the figure Table1_DQPData and at the column for your set. If your existing setting for DF is within 5 of what is listed, leave it alone. Otherwise, set it to the listed number (40 or 36). You can reconsider this later, if need be.


(2) Display the image CrosshatchPlusDots for your set's profile (4:3 or 16:9). Gently grab the Focus-screwdriver, push inward gently, and turn it all the way to the left (counter-clockwise) until it stops. Brace yourself! The display is now completely blurred. Adjust 2170D-4 #8, DQP until vertical line widths at equal distances from center are balanced. I.e. the 8th line to the right of center should be equal in width to the 8th line to the left. You should also note that the dots should look like what is shown in the figure DotShapes. The goal is to achieve good left-right symmetry. (See Note #5, below.)


(3) Turn the screwdriver-Focus control to the right (clockwise) until the screen is approximately focused again. Display the pattern FocusMatrix for your set. Go to 2170D-4 #3 QPDC, and set it to 31. Adjust the screwdriver Focus adjustment for sharpest focus in the *center* of the screen. Turn the control back and forth a bit to see what it does. You'll be choosing a compromise between the black-cloverleaf-on-white and its reverse. When you think you have it just right, stop. (See Note #1.)


(4) Now look at the screen center, and adjust 2170P-4 #3 QPDC for an even better focus. Again, you can increase QPDC and decrease it until you are satisfied - it's not a very sensitive adjustment.


That's the fundamental whole-screen adjustment. Now let's fine-tune the rest of the screen.


(5) Look at the top-most focus pattern and adjust #4 QPDV to see if you can improve on the focus up there. You may end up with QPDV = 63 (max) and it's still not perfect, but them's the breaks! Also check out both top and bottom, and use #5 QPDP (a top/bottom balance adjustment) to make them look about the same. You can keep diddling back and forth until you've got it as good as it gets.


(6) Look at the focus patterns at the middle of the left and right edges of the screen, and adjust #0 QPAM for best focus and #2 QPAP for best balance between left and right. (It's a miracle that the beam is focused at all at these extremes, so don't expect the same clarity as the center!)


(7) Check out the extreme corners, and adjust #1 QPAV for best focus. Just do the best you can.


(8) WRITE the settings (press Mute, then Enter). You should write the settings on paper, too. Depending on what source you used for the pattern, you have to transfer your settings once. According to Sony, there are *two* separate dynamic-focus settings (a) for 1080Vcomp/480Vcomp, which are the vertically compressed modes for 4:3 sets, and (b) Others. While your new settings are still on-screen, you should see if you can find a video source that causes *different* values to appear in 2170D-4. If so, change them to match what you've written down, and WRITE. I can't predict how this will go for sets other than 4:3. But this will cover all bases.


PAUSE FOR A BREATHER. You're done . . . at least in theory. But you can go back through these steps any time. (I would write down what you get each time.) You can also set 2170P-2 #1 RGBS to 7 to get full color back to check out real program material.


Here is an overview of what you've done, now that you've seen the result:


The goal was to minimize the effects of dynamic focusing at the screen center first, then defocus and balance the beam width with DQP. Then you (a) focused the center of the screen with the Focus control and (b) perfected the center focus with the QPDC setting. The rest of the settings just balanced the focus over the extremes of this wide-scan screen; just don't expect the beam (the dots) to be as round or sharp as they are in the center.


WHEN DONE, gently pull out the screwdriver without tweaking the control. Normal color will be restored when you leave service mode by powering off and on again.


NOTES:


(1) The tiny cloverleaf focus pattern incorporates the best of dots and of vertical and horizontal lines into one shape. You can easily see how you have to choose a focus setting halfway between sharpest horizontal and sharpest vertical features. It's not my invention. I just made up the screen presentations.


(2) You can revisit the focus process using a brighter setting of the Picture control or a dimmer one, depending on what you wish to optimize. Fair warning: optimizing less-bright focus may result in ugly blooming on nearly-white subjects, swallowing up black detail and bloating white text out of shape. I used the Picture = 40 setting, and I'm very pleased. Feel free to experiment with whatever Picture setting works best for you.


(3) You can leave steps 5-7 alone and just re-tweak overall focus (Focus control + QPDC). The balance of all the sides and corners shouldn't change. But make judgments based only on the *center* of the screen.


(4) You can use a high-quality HD broadcast of good mixed brightness and contrast, and touch up the Focus control. If you can't use a memory-stick image, this may be the best way to finalize things. Use that hand-mirror!


(5) If you get a large value for DQP, say over 40, try setting DF a bit higher and redoing DQP. These two settings shouldn't differ by a great deal. But don't obsess - it's a very coarse adjustment, and a whole range of DF-DQP combinations are likely satisfactory. They should probably be within 5-8 of each other. I ended up with DF = 36 and DQP = 37.


IMPORTANT: Please call my atention to any mistakes you find here. A personal message is best, and Ill react very promptly.

 

Part2_Figs_Patterns.zip 435.087890625k . file

 

FocusMatrix_4x3_1080.zip 377.583984375k . file

 

FocusMatrix_16x9_1080.zip 374.51171875k . file


----------



## CrocHunter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rholt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am working with a Sony XBR 960. Here are (what I suspect) are very basic questions.
> 
> 
> 1) My service menu looks different than the menu enumerated in the Excel spreadsheet that is an attachment earlier in this thread. My service menu looks like it does not have as many items. Also - many of the defaults are different. Is this to be expected?
> 
> 
> 2) In general - I can follow/match the pattern of categories and items laid out in the Excel spreadsheet. But I can't figure out how the different picture modes (e.g. Pro, Vivid, etc) are reflected. For example - I understand that RYR (in 2170P-4) has a different value for each picture mode - but I don't really see how that is reflected in the menu - I only see one value. I am clearly missing something.
> 
> 
> 3) I am particularly interested in the SBRT setting. I have had a really issue with the black level - shadows are way to deep. Can someone please help me understand - intuitively - what this setting does. How is it different than simply jacking up the brightness setting in the standard menu.
> 
> 
> 4) Am I risking my warranty by messing with the SM?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help here. This is a great thread.



Yes kentech, how different is SBRT from just raising the black level in the user menu?


I'm curious because i'm doing what you said and put brightness at 31 and set sbrt to 31 and UBOF to 0.


My SBRT was originally at 15, way too low, but now that i set SBRT to what you said and i can now clearly see the 3 stripes in the pluge patterns.


Now that i did that i have to now lower brightness from the middle setting instead of higher brightness to see the 3 stripes.


It seems that if i set SBRT to 15 and brightness about 6 or 8 nothces up from the middle setting it looks the same as using SBRT at 31 and UBOF at 0 and adjusting brightness downwords now from 31.


Is ther any difference doing whatever vice or versa?


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> My SBRT was originally at 15, way too low, but now that i set SBRT to what you said and i can now clearly see the 3 stripes in the pluge patterns.
> 
> 
> Now that i did that i have to now lower brightness from the middle setting instead of higher brightness to see the 3 stripes.
> 
> 
> It seems that if i set SBRT to 15 and brightness about 6 or 8 nothces up from the middle setting it looks the same as using SBRT at 31 and UBOF at 0 and adjusting brightness downwords now from 31.



Try setting the SBRT a few notches above the 15, say 20 and see how it looks.

the goal here is to get the brightness set with the user control at midpoint (31). Try different values until it is right.


----------



## CrocHunter

Ok, ijust wanted to see if their was a difference that's all either using SBRT for brightness or raising the brightness control.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It seems that if i set SBRT to 15 and brightness about 6 or 8 nothces up from the middle setting it looks the same as using SBRT at 31 and UBOF at 0 and adjusting brightness downwords now from 31.
> 
> 
> Is ther any difference doing whatever vice or versa?



I may have mentioned that I ended up with SBRT = 31, but that may not be the setting for your TV. From my article:


"Set your Brightness and Picture sliders with the remote to 31 (mid-scale). Use Digital Video Essentials or Avia DVD, and use a video-PLUGE pattern or video black on the disk as a decent black standard. Change the code 2170P-1 #5-SBRT to set video-black as the barest screen glow. For PLUGE, follow the DVD's instructions."


So I agree with Glen, but with these refinements:


(1) Observed brightness = SBRT setting + Brightness slider + approx. 2X the 2170P-3/UBOF setting. They all add together and compensate for each other, with one notch of UBOF being equivalent to 2 notches of SBRT and Brightness.


(2) Use your highest black-level, reliable, non-broadcast input for calibrating SBRT, say a good DVD player. Set Brightness slider to 31, UBOF for that input to 0, and adjust SBRT so that only *one* bar shows on the PLUGE pattern: The darkest bar and the background should blend together.


(3) Tweak the other inputs and the average broadcast to match using UBOF. If the DVD player turns out to be darker than other inputs, then knock UBOF up 2 or 3 notches, reduce SBRT by 4-6, and try again to balance the other sources with UBOF. The idea is to get the Brightness = 31 to be a suitable starting point for any video source.


(4) See service-data chart to see what input/scan rates different UBOF settings correspond to. E.g. all V1-V3 inputs are the same for a given scan rate (say, 480i vs 480p), and the same is true for V5 and V6. Note that HD-1080 and HD-720 from the ATSC tuner have *different* UBOF settings.


----------



## CrocHunter

So let me get this straight...You want me to adjust SBRT untill i see only ONE bar?


1) I thought i was supposed to adjust it untill the blacker than black bar is not visible and the middle bar is visible and the inner bar is bearly visible correct?


2) Should'nt i adjust so that i can only see the middle bar and barely see the most inner bar?


3) Also is UBOF like you said recommended off?


4) I thought the purpose of adjusting SBRT was to give the brightness controll more range is it not?So you just leave it in the middle and ajust SBRT as your brightness correct?


5) Also for gamma, should i just leave the factory settings alone for PRO mode.


6) And when adjusting the color, do i leave it in the middle and instead of using the color filters like you said, which items in the service menu should i use to adjust how much of each individual color is put on the screen besides RYR-GYB.


7) You talked about just using the color guns instead of the filters, after using each color gun do i press muting and then enter to save the guns the way they were before or do i just press the number key for all color guns on?



Thanks for your time.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So let me get this straight...You want me to adjust SBRT untill i see only ONE bar?



I apologize for probably misleading you. I've forgotten how many bars there are, total. No, you reduce SBRT until the *darkest* bar blends with the background for the room lighting you'll be using for viewing. (I use more than one PLUGE pattern.)


> Quote:
> 1) I thought i was supposed to adjust it untill the blacker than black bar is not visible and the middle bar is visible and the inner bar is bearly visible correct?



Yep, I think you have it correct. But it's that darkest bar that should just disappear no matter how many other bars there are.


> Quote:
> 3) Also is UBOF like you said recommended off?



If you do that for all inputs, you'll be missing out on the ability to balance the black levels among the inputs. UBOF (User Brightness OFfset) is just another black-level adjustment, like SBRT, but it is *video mode* and *input* dependent. See appropriate data chart.


> Quote:
> 4) I thought the purpose of adjusting SBRT was to give the brightness controll more range is it not?So you just leave it in the middle and ajust SBRT as your brightness correct?



Not *range,* but an *offset.* SBRT determines exactly what Brightness setting results in a correct black level, on average. Then you have to tweak it for each program.


> Quote:
> 5) Also for gamma, should i just leave the factory settings alone for PRO mode.



I would. And that gives you maximum gamma and no other brightness/contrast compensations, too.


> Quote:
> 6) And when adjusting the color, do i leave it in the middle and instead of using the color filters like you said, which items in the service menu should i use to adjust how much of each individual color is put on the screen besides RYR-GYB.



Set the Color and Hue sliders to the middle, and then make the adjustments. But don't confuse white/grayscale balance with color decoding. Read my article #03. Note that getting white balance and grayscale just right has *nothing* to do with the color-decoding controls in RYR-GYB. That's a color-"push" issue, and it's handled separately. DVE's calibration pattern works perfedtly fpr a DVD player for Color (amount), Hue, and eliminating color push. Getting grayscale and white right is another whole matter.


I don't remember if I covered this in any article, but the base-settings for Color and Hue are also adjusted in 2170P-3/UCOF and UHOC, and, of course, they are input and video-scan dependent. Allows you to compensate for differences among, say, your cable box, VCR, and DVD player.


To summarize:


(1) Play a calibration DVD in your player. I'll assume DVE.


(2) Select Pro mode, and set Brightness, Color, and Hue sliders to their mid-points.


(3) Display a PLUGE pattern, and adjust SBRT for correct black level. (Ignore UBOF for now.) WRITE the settings.


(4) Display the color-calibration pattern -- those 75% color blocks against 75% gray.


(5) Set 2170P2/RGBS to 1 (blue) and adjust 2170P-3/UCOF for correct color amount and UHOF for correct hue. WRITE the settings.


(6) Then set 2170P-2/RGBS to 4 (red) and adjust 2170P-4/RYR and RYB for no red push. Set RGBS to 2 (green) and adjust GYR and GYB for no green push. Repeat steps (5) and (6) until perfect. (Balance the brightness of all the color blocks for blue, red, and green guns.) WRITE the settings.


> Quote:
> 7) You talked about just using the color guns instead of the filters, after using each color gun do i press muting and then enter to save the guns the way they were before or do i just press the number key for all color guns on?



You don't have to. The color-gun settings of 2170P-2/RGBS are never memorized no matter what you do. It always returns to 7 (all colors) when you recycle power on the TV.


----------



## CrocHunter

Ok, thank you for your time


I'll report back on my progress.


Matt~


p.s. after doing those settings for the component input, should i connect my dvd player to the composite inputs and calibrate them too?In other words that's how you calibrate the other inputs correct?


Again thank you for your input, i'm trying to get the best PQ possible!


----------



## loadams

I think you will want to cal composite first, using the directions from KENTECH for setting SBRT, etc. Then component, adjusting UCOF and UBOF as needed.

If you find that you've run out of UBOF (max) on while cal'ing component, you will have to compromise and raise SBRT, off course starting all over again with composite.


----------



## shtfilter

I have the KV-34HS420 and I followed your advice through the pdf files about coloring. I got:


480p h and v to look much better,

menus (cable box) in 480p and 1080i to look good,

1080i v to look good with very little overscan (no more logos cut off).


BUT


I can not get 1080i h to give me little overscan. I lose about two inches off each side. What happens is this: I can get either the left or right side to be perfect, but then the other side develops what I call a "wraparound" on it.

Can anyone tell me how to eliminate this? Or maybe can you post or e-mail your settings and I can try them out.


Thanks.


----------



## CrocHunter

I would leave your overscan alone, it's there for a reason, to hide any faults in the picture that should'nt be there.


Instead of adjusting the size of the picture try adjust the position of the picture instead.


I bet you noticed that now that you have lowered overscan the screen bowes in kind of right?


Mine did the same when i lowered overscan so i just put it back to where it was and the problem was gone.I also noticed that letterboxed material such as movies with 2:35:1 or higher aspect ratios showed larger black bars on the yop and bottom causing the picture to be smaller when i lowered overscan before.


I own the same set as you, and my advice is to just leave the overscan alone, it's there for a reason.Mine was pretty dead on out of the box at 5% so i left it alone.You don't want to go lower than 5% or else you will be seeing things at the corners of the screen that don't belong.


Also Kentech:


I adjusted SBRT to 25,UBOF to 0 and with brightness in the middle like you said and this seems to be the perfect black level.It's perfectly black.Before i had it at 26 and 27 and although i could see the middle bar just barely the image was'nt a perfect black.


Question when setting black level i should barely see the middle bar in the pluge test correct?And if i have black level correct there should be no light in the darkness right?


Just want to make sure i don't have it too low.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I adjusted SBRT to 25,UBOF to 0 and with brightness in the middle like you said and this seems to be the perfect black level.It's perfectly black.Before i had it at 26 and 27 and although i could see the middle bar just barely the image was'nt a perfect black.
> 
> 
> Question when setting black level i should barely see the middle bar in the pluge test correct?And if i have black level correct there should be no light in the darkness right?
> 
> 
> Just want to make sure i don't have it too low.



ARRGGHH! Let me say clearly: THERE IS NO ONE PERFECT BLACK LEVEL. No matter what you set as "the" black level, you will be diddling it for individual programs and DVDs. The whole purpose for intially setting a "reasonable" black level for the Brightness slider at its midpoint of 31 is for *convenience.* Obsessing over this is a complete waste of your time!


If, for example, you watched Friday-night PBS awfulvideo and had screwed your Brightness and Color both down to about 25, then turned the set off and went to bed, the next evening you have messed-up settings for, say, the History channel, VH1, or an ABC movie. So you return everything *first* to 31, and *then* adjust the Color and Brightness for this new program. That's it! It's no more subtle than that. If your room light is bright, you will likely prefer a little higher black level than if it's dark. For my neck of the woods, HD OTA broadcast is quite consistent, DVD is next-best, but SD cable channels are all over the place! Brightness at midpoint is just a *starting* point.


----------



## CrocHunter

ok thanks just wanted to make sure, no need to get in a pissy fit


----------



## loadams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ARRGGHH! Let me say clearly: THERE IS NO ONE PERFECT BLACK LEVEL. No matter what you set as "the" black level, you will be diddling it for individual programs and DVDs. The whole purpose for intially settings a "reasonable" black level for the Brightness slider at its midpoint of 31 is for *convenience.* Obsessing over this is a complete waste of your time!
> 
> 
> If, for example, you watched Friday-night PBS awfulvideo and had screwed your Brightness and Color both down to about 25, then turned the set off and went to bed, the next evening you have messed-up settings for, say, the History channel, VH1, or an ABC movie. So you return everything *first* to 31, and *then* adjust the Color and Brightness for this new program. That's it! It's no more subtle than that. If your room light is bright, you will likely prefer a little higher black level than if it's dark. For my neck of the woods, HD OTA broadcast is quite consistent, DVD is next-best, but SD cable channels are all over the place! Brightness at midpoint is just a *starting* point.



Personally, I have found a good compromise with black level. DVD's and HD with component look uniform from one dvd to another, same for HD, except noting a few broadcasts look a little dark, Lost, Cold Case and CSI-Miami at times.

SD broadcasts are another story as you have pointed out, however, I have resisted the urge, at the annoyance of my better half, to fiddle with the remote when we are watching together. I get that look, you know.


Let me first say, KENTECH, your dedication to these threads here and at Agoraquest is so beneficial to us. I am a reader, and have soaked up these boards for a few years now learning my little and unimportant hobby. For example, I built a homemade photocell from directions obtained at another forum. Using that knowledge, I, without expensive gadgets, cal'ed my grayscale with a multimeter to a known source, with numbers and equations. But until I read your thread on gamma, it wasn't quite perfect. Now, I am proud to say, with you help, order is restored.


Let's hope a moderator will make this thread a sticky in the near future.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> no need to get in a pissy fit



Please! With me, it's a *hissy* fit, where one's panties are truly in a knot, not a mere *pissy* fit, where they just feel too tight.










It's just that I seem to be writing the same stuff over, and over, and . . .


----------



## jasperm

Hi -


Had a thought -- does anyone know if the kind of color calibration devices used for setting up profiles for digital photo editing can output an actual color temp that would be useful for setting color temp? I read KenTech's article on color temp, that involves fluffly clouds, no green light from leaves, etc - and the chances of my getting those conditions at a time when neither my kids nor spouse want something of me and I have an hour or so free....well, we're looking at 2020 at the soonest. I was thinking of getting an inexpensive product called Profile Mechanic from Digital Light and Color, that includes a sensor to read color output from a monitor - but I don't know if these typically talk directly to the software, or also output a color temp in Kelvin. No response yet from DLC on this.


Anyone done this?


Michael


----------



## loadams

Michael, you might want to read this thread here on their discussion of "hobbyists" products. http://www.***************.com/htsth...0/fpart/1/vc/1 


Product of discussion can be found here.
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.as...54&dcaid=17654 


And a simple review. http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/a...tml#what_is_it 


I would think these products would be very similar.


Personally haven't tried it. Recommend to do a little reading first. Good luck.


----------



## CrocHunter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> KenTech, after reading your article the other day I tried several of the items you mentioned with various to little success. I tend to agree with Crochunter (somewhat) on the SYSM setting. I have left mine at 1 for everything except HD content which stayed at 3.
> 
> Changing the SYSM setting (with 480p from DVE & AVIA) & (1080i from ESPNHD frozen frame) caused the picture to shift horizontally with minor sharpness changes. SYSM @ 2 is a little coarse and 1 has the best compromise with DVD.
> 
> HD 1080i still looks best with a setting of 3 for all modes.
> 
> I wonder if since you may have used the memory stick for your images that you may see these differences ??
> 
> I still don't understand why the picture moves (left - right) with SYSM setting ???
> 
> Also, like Croc I'm keeping VM off with default pro settings on all pic modes (VM=0, VMH=12, VMM=8 & VML=4).
> 
> Lastly, I will try your MIDE setting on unused MID5/POP value of 60/61.
> 
> 
> Todd



Todd, VM is not off with those settings you posted, if you want it completely off you have to change those four to 0.HD and DVD will loook a lot better with them off.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Todd, VM is not off with those settings you posted, if you want it completely off you have to change those four to 0.HD and DVD will loook a lot better with them off.



No, Croc, this is not how it works. Those four VM settings are what you get *added on* when you choose a strength of the ClearEdge VM feature. If you set ClearEdge to zero, it's zero.


But there may be *other sources* of VM *not related* to those settings in 2170P-3/VM-VML. I describe those in my discussion of settings for image decoding in my article #12, post #41 in this thread. The article and a chart are in the attached PDF file.


In summary, I am speculating, based on how the effect appears, that one of the three settings, 2170P-3 #6-8, SHOF-PROV, seems to add a kind of VM. I prefer the effect OFF, and I recommend that in my article. So if Todd is going to try my MID5 settings for MIDE #60/61, he willl have NO VM in effect when he is using any display mode with ClearEdge VM OFF. None. He can leave VML-VMH alone.


I also believe that the setting of SYSM to 1 adds a considerable coarseness that is as gross as badly-configured VM, in my opinion. The reason for the shift of the video display to the right is because a small delay has been added to the incoming video so a calculated edge-enhancement of some sort can be added to it. It has to be added just *before* the actual edge-event occurs for it to act as an unsharp-mask, and this can be done by delaying the main video and adding the non-delayed enhancement.


And I strongly disagree with the myth that the picture *always* looks better with VM off. If VM is tweaked for a fine, rather than a coarse, effect, and is used in moderation, it provides a valuable image enhancement that cannot be rendered any other way -- such a diddling with sharpening parameters, etc. It's Sony's *default* VM settings that are fairly gross, and the correct application of VM should not be condemned because of that.


I discuss this in article #12, too. 2170P-3 #2-5, VMCR thru VMDL *completely determine* the "look" of VM, just as VMH-VML determine the *amount* available, and I suggested there some settings to try. Bottom line: be open-minded, but if you don't like what it does to the video material *you* are watching, turn CLearEdge off in the user menu! But don't dismiss the use of VM out of hand!


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And I strongly disagree with the myth that the picture *always* looks better with VM off. If VM is tweaked for a fine, rather than a coarse, effect, and is used in moderation, it provides a valuable image enhancement that cannot be rendered any other way -- such a diddling with sharpening parameters, etc. It's Sony's *default* VM settings that are fairly gross, and the correct application of VM should not be condemned because of that.
> 
> 
> ...But don't dismiss the use of VM out of hand!



I heartily agree. I have come to view, pun intended, ClearEdge VM as my friend. Used in moderation, as suggested, this is a true enhancement.


Cheers & Happy 4th to all US participants!


----------



## nefilim242

Hi KenTech, (or anyone else that may know)


CRT hot spots: Can this be adjusted via the SM?


I tried going over your very useful tips on this thread but I couldn't find anything directly related to this issue.


I have a Sony 30Xs955. I sometimes notice some sort of "hot spotting" issue going on in the middle of the screen when images pan left or right (On light backgrounds) at med to fast speeds. It's basically non existant on still images, dark backgrounds or on very slow pans. I know this is could sometimes happen on Projection systems (I see this all the time at my local cineplex) but I'm not sure if this can be adjusted on a direct view CRT such as my Sony.


Any thoughts or suggestions? Is this just a common CRT issue like Geometry and Magnetic Interference problems? Can this be tweaked via the service menu or should I just suck it up and stop being so picky?







(I have a feeling if I call in a Tech they would most likely say this is within "spec" since the abnormality is somewhat faint)


Thanks,


-RC


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nefilim242*  /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CRT hot spots: Can this be adjusted via the SM?
> 
> . . . or should I just suck it up and stop being so picky?



No. Yes.


In spite of my own motivation to address hot-spotting, I have never found a solution. The service tech I had out to my home to help with a static-convergence issue simply smiled when I asked about it. (At least he didn't laugh and point!) It apparently *is* inherent in these sets. Some compensation has already been applied, but the very center has a vertically-elongated hot spot on every one of these sets I have seen.


With my own video camera, I have a habit of slow pans on vast scenics, and *that's* where the hot spot really is obvioous. Lots of blue sky, things like that. But I can go through an entire evening of regular TV without noticing it, generally.


----------



## nefilim242

Thanks for the clarification.


I'm glad to know that it's not just unique to my set. Now I can finally put my mind at ease until I find something else i want to tweak










-RC


----------



## ptchristensen

Let's just say that a "friend of mine" actually did reset the settings to "factory-newborn" on his 34XBR960. Since everything is totally out of wack, he started writing in the "default" settings, from one of the available charts.


He has now been tweaking for several days, but horisontal lines and the i-guide menues are bend like a hammock and he's really not a happy camper.


Is there any way that a Sony technician can restore the default settings.


----------



## CrocHunter





KenTech said:


> No, Croc, this is not how it works. Those four VM settings are what you get *added on* when you choose a strength of the ClearEdge VM feature. If you set ClearEdge to zero, it's zero.
> 
> 
> How is it 0 if i see them four like this:
> 
> 
> VM:0
> 
> VMH:12
> 
> VMM:8
> 
> VML:4
> 
> 
> Does'nt look like it's at 0 to me.
> 
> 
> So let me get this straight..if i put clear edge to "OFF" in the user menu, the 4 VM settings will be 0?
> 
> 
> How is this when they are at 0,12,8,and 4?
> 
> 
> Are you saying it does'nt matter if they are at those numbers or 0 that it is still off?
> 
> 
> Or is it the first VM:0 that shuts this off?
> 
> 
> I'm confused?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How is it 0 if i see them four like this:
> 
> 
> VM:0
> 
> VMH:12
> 
> VMM:8
> 
> VML:4
> 
> 
> Does'nt look like it's at 0 to me.



The H, M, and L letters mean that these are the settings for VM (ClearEdge) at the High, Medium, and Low settings *per picture-mode.*. If you have ClearEdge OFF (or None or whatever) in the user menu, those settings of 4, 8, and 12 aren't used.


For example, if you set VMM (M for Medium) to, say, 6 for Movie, 8 for Standard, and 10 for Vivid modes (see data chart), then when you set VM/ClearEdge to Medium, you'll get those amounts, depending on what picture mode you are in. If you set it to 0 for any mode, then even if you set ClearEdge to Medium, it will be OFF because you specified 0 for that setting.


However, if you have ClearEdge set to OFF, it doesn't matter what mode you're in, it's OFF.


Now -- an admission -- I haven't verified that the code "VM" isn't a setting for ClearEdge = OFF. That would make no sense -- that a setting of VM = 3, for instance, gives you an "OFF" setting of 3. "OFF" should be, hello!, OFF. But Sony have done weirder things than that. (I have VM = 0 for all picture modes, just in case.)


So next time I'm diddling in service mode, I think I'll check it out. Not that I'm untrusting or anything . . .


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now -- an admission -- I haven't verified that the code "VM" isn't a setting for ClearEdge = OFF.



Yesterday I performed some experiments with the code 2170P-3 #17/VM to see what effect it has on ClearEdge VM on-screen. It can take values from 0 to 3 and by default is 0 for Pro mode, 1 for Movie, and 3 for Standard and Vivid. I used revealing MS test patterns to attampt to determine its effect. Bottom line: I cannot determine what it does! It's easy to see on-screen how the amount of applied VM varies with changes in VMH-VML. But altering the VM code while either a lot of VM is visible or none is visible has no effect that I can see.


It may be a threshold or limiter of some sort -- a nonlinear effect that doesn't show up in my tests. But I'm at a loss to explain it, so I leave the VM code set to 0 for all modes. (If I don't understand it, I don't want it.)


----------



## KenTech

*14 - A SERVICE-MODE BUG; THE DVE PLASTIC VIEWING FILTERS*


I have reported previously that I found that the memory-stick mode had a different color-decoding matrix from the other modes. (That's what's set with 2170P-4/RYR thru GYB.) I came up with one set of values for my DVD player using the Digital Video Essentials (DVE) disk and another using a precisely similar pattern on a MS. Since MS and the ATSC (HD) tuner share the same signal path, I thought perhaps that the MS settings might be more accurate for HD reception.


I was astounded to learn that those differences between MS color and the other modes *evaporate* when you leave service mode! I recently was playing around with the color filters supplied with the DVE DVD just to see how closely they corresponded to the more-perfect approach of using one color gun at a time with 2170P-2 #1/RGBS. I was using the MS pattern and my custom Monitor matrix for it, and I observed a large green deficiency (opposite of push. Pull? Suck?) I changed to the other color matrix I had set up with DVE for Default, and the problem disappeared. What?? So I went into service mode to revisit the calibration of the MS mode and came up with new settings that weren't either the original I had developed nor the ones for Default. Huh?


I confirmed with the plastic filters that I was spot-on with the new MS adjustments, and left service mode. When looking again at the same pattern, it had changed back to something dead-on with my Default setting but green-deficient with the freshly-calibrated setting. (Note: I also interrupted the AC-power-plug connection when the set was off to make sure nothing was sneaking by a mere remote power-off-on cycle. This *can* happen: there's one instance in the AUDIO group I know of.)


All I can say is that this is buggy behavior by any measure. The bottom line seems to be this: *You can't rely on color-matrix calibration with a memory-stick source, no matter how accurate the pattern is.*


I have tried something else, too: I duplicated my dead-accurate calibration pattern, using a TIF master (not JPG), onto a DVD+RW as a slide. The DVD standard allows this; it's an orthodox method. Using that, I got calibrated settings for RYR-GYB *very* close to what I get with DVE:


RYR-RYB-GYR-GYB: with DVE = 14-15-7-5; with DVD slide = 13-15-5-3.


I have made one Default and the other Monitor, and it's hard to prefer one over the other, they are so similar. The second one has a tiny bit more red/orange and green push. HD, SD, and DVD all look gorgeous with either one.


I really wish my local stations broadcast at some time in the week a SMPTE or similar pattern so I could see what the color-calibration is like through the tuners.

*Notes:*


(1) DVE's red and green plastic color filters are not exactly the same as running the color guns one at a time, and the blue is so dark as to be nearly useless besides, it leaks red. The red and green are okay for quickie evaluations, but I trust the color-gun method completely. With the filters, I think you might get errors of 1 point (of 15) for a couple of values.


(2) All of my video sources, especially broadcast, vary a bit in their color *encoding* by favoring some colors over others. Agonizing over 1-point variations in this calibration may be a time-waster, but at least major DVDs seem to be very consistent.


(3) Image compression can change color very slightly: When converting the dead-accurate TIF image I developed in Photoshop to highest-quality JPEG, the RGB color/brightness values drifted off by a couple of points (in 256) in different directions. I don't yet know what MPEG2 compression does to color for DVD-video, and I don't yet understand what compression is used for DVD slides and what its effect is on color. To split hairs: A TIF image is perfect, but I don't know a way of displaying it perfectly without that compression step.


----------



## kraq

Thanks for all the valuable info.


----------



## loadams

Good posts Ken. I, too, have noticed the differences in color decoding, but perhaps my fault. It seems on my set, changing any parameter in IDSW ( checking geometry, color decoding, etc for other scan rates) does something "goofy" in respect with my CORRECT color decoder values ( produces lack of green). One minute it's dead on, next, GONE. Will look into it further.


Let me clarify further. I forced a 1080i scan rate using IDSW to check color decoding for HD. Good to go. But when I returned back to 480p, green was way off. Cycled the set, 480p is back to normal. I guess nothing to get sweaty about after all.


----------



## GlenC

I would like to get a copy of the KD-34XBR960 service manual. Does anyone have the part number? Is it available on a disc in PDF?


----------



## ADU

When last I checked...


> Quote:
> Sony service manuals could be ordered from Sony Direct Accessories and Parts Center via their 800 number.
> 
> 
> Once you have a manual, there's also a 900 number that can be called for Non-Authorized Service Tech Support. It costs $3/min, with a $20 minimum for each call. According to Sony, you must have a service manual in front of you to use this service.
> 
> 
> Although the service manuals do contain some basic instructions on geometry, convergence, menu navigation and detailed schematics of the circuit boards, the descriptions on many/most service items is slim to none, hence the need for the help line (and forums like AVS). The manual is really more of a data/reference list. An official Sony service center might be another possible source of info.


----------



## ADU

Although the RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB are global in that they can only store a single value for all modes, the calibration of these controls can be effected by other input & signal sensitive controls for hue and color in the service menu. If the different picture modes (Vivid, Standard, Movie, Pro) don't have the same Color and Hue settings in the User menu, then the calibration will be thrown off when you switch between these modes as well.


There also appear to be some HD color offset controls at CXA2151/CBGN, CRGN, YGN, which may allow you to better align the color decoding of HD signals to match SD signals. If you're noticing an obvious and consistent difference between 480i signals and 480p/1080i signals via all inputs, and it isn't correctable via some other color or hue control, then these CXA2151 controls may allow you to fix it.


As I mentioned earlier though, there may also be a little variation between _inputs_ too, particularly between the analog (component/CVYC/RF) versus digital inputs (DVI/HDMI/MS/Firewire), which should also be easily correctable via some of the sub-color (and if necessary sub-hue) controls in the SM.

_[Edited to reflect more recent info on the CXA2151 controls.]_


----------



## ADU

The difference in calibration between the DVE color filters and RGBS gun controls is also something which has been known for some time. I don't know enough about the paradigm used in DVE or AVIA calibration to really comment on this intelligently though. FWIW, I went with the RGBS approach as well, just because it was more convenient (and cheaper than buying disks and filters). _[Edit: Pls see info much later in the thread re MTRX and how it may effect color decoder adjustments, especially when making them in the SM with the RGBS settings.]_


Re color shift with JPEG and MPEG... This is something I've noticed as well. In addition to compression-based changes, some DVD/MPEG authoring programs may also automatically clip or adjust the saturation of some colors so they're NTSC compliant. So as you say, these formats may not be the most reliable for such discrete color tweaking.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In addition to compression-based changes, some DVD/MPEG authoring programs may also automatically clip or adjust the saturation of some colors so they're NTSC compliant.



This would be in accord with keeping the colors within the NTSC colorspace. But the DVE and my similar patterns are made from exact colors at 75% brightness (in hue-saturation-brightness terms), and so they're well within the colorspace and not likely to be truncated/clipped.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Although the RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB are global in that they can only store a single value for all modes, the calibration of these controls can be effected by other input & signal sensitive controls for hue and color in the service menu.



Thanks for the reminder! This would especially include the 2170P-3 settings for #14 and 15, UCOF and UHOF. I think I'd better reexamine what my settings are for those on the DVD/component input. (I think they match the RF and HD tuner settings.)


> Quote:
> There also appear to be some 1080i color offsets controls at CXA2151/CBGN, CRGN, YGN, which may allow you to better align the color decoding of 33.75khz 1080i signals with 31.5khz-480p/960 signals. If you're noticing an obvious and consistent difference between 480p/960i signals and 1080i signals via all inputs (or the IDSW setting), and it isn't correctable via some other color or hue control, then these CXA2151 controls may allow you to fix it.



This is great information, thanks! Experimentation now follows. Where did you find this out?


----------



## ADU

Just an educated guess, Ken. It's one of the tweaks that came up during the whole 1080i scrolling bar business awhile ago though. And I know those CXA2151 controls will effect your RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB results either with 1080i or 480p signals. Can't remember exactly which.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There, there. Everything is really going to turn out OK. Just rest . . . rest . . .
> 
> 
> All calm now? OK. I read the article, and it is very informative for technogeeks like us, but, Dude, I think you are way-obsessing over this gamma thing. If we were calibrating a multi-million-dollar broadcast studio so folks couldn't complain about *our* standards, I would spend more time at this. But I am watching material from the real world of commercial broadcast and DVD, and the end result I want is for it to be displayed so as to bring me the greatest pleasure in my evening-illuminated living room.
> 
> 
> This requires that I have *some* control over things like gamma, and I am delighted that this TV allows you to set up a couple of the "picture modes" to differ only in gamma. I get to pick. Again, last night, watching a documentary on the History Channel about Wake Island, I reached desperately for the remote so I could dial in all the gamma I had -- 3.0 would have not been out of line with this ultra-flat video! But that would have made a following HD program, say Lost or CSI/Miami, look hopelessly dark. And so I grab for the remote again . . .
> 
> 
> Without some control, there's no hope. It's what *looks right,* and I think you can really get there with this set by tweaking a bit for each program!



I can't really argue with you there. That's one of the reasons I prefer watching most stuff on DVD... because it's so easily tweakable. (If you happen to have an older Sony DVD player like mine btw, then the Memory/Brightness control may well be a gamma control rather than a black level control, which comes in very handy.)


And like I said before, I'm still not certain I understand all this gamma stuff. And after contemplating it some more, my previous certitude re what grey should appear "neutral" on a TV has begun to give way to uncertainty again. So I'm gonna backpeddle a little from some of my previous remarks in Post #130 . I think the theories were basically correct there, but some doubts are beginning to creep back in again about the correct grey to use for adjusting gamma for DVDs, etc.


As you and GlenC point out, there still seems to be alot of variation out there. And some video just looks really damn dark. So I'm thinking perhaps I've not properly factored in system gamma, or that some film-based video content may be getting passed through even darker screen gamma that the standards specify. Another possibility is that people are simply ignoring the standards altogether and using whatever gamma they think will result in the kind of image they want.







IAC, I'll do some more reading and experimenting and if I come up with anything more concrete I'll let you know... maybe in a new thread, so folks here don't have to listen to any more of my hemming and hawing about this.









_[Edited to better reflect the more updated info on gamma in Post #343 .]_


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Although the RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB are global in that they can only store a single value for all modes, the calibration of these controls can be effected by other input & signal sensitive controls for hue and color in the service menu.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reminder! This would especially include the 2170P-3 settings for #14 and 15, UCOF and UHOF. I think I'd better reexamine what my settings are for those on the DVD/component input. (I think they match the RF and HD tuner settings.)



And also 2170P-4/SCOL & SHUE (which is what I used to tweak DVI on my TV instead of using the 2170P-3 controls, to save some time).


----------



## GlenC

Film kind of has the fade to black thing going. Film based gamma for theater (dark) viewing is a 2.5 gamma curve. More ambient light generates a situation where the gamma is reduced, possibly 2.2 for low light. The main issue here is how fast is the transition from black to gray to white. When the gamma curve is too steep, say, 

RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB should only be needed globally. It can be used to correct the color of red and green (if you have a color analyzer to measure the colors by their x/y coordinates). Ken, this is one area where your cloudy sky won't be any help.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> I haven’t even started to experiment with it, but my Denon DVD5900 has a 10 step gamma adjustment. I gather that if your display has a steep curve, t can be corrected for movies. I will have to experiment with this when I get time.



Variable gamma adjustments can be your friend. It probably does about the same thing as the "Memory/Brightness" control does on my Sony DVP-NS715P. Instead of changing the DVD's black level, it seems to adjust the brightness of the midtones, which is actually alot more helpful, and exactly what I would expect from a _gamma_ control.


You might look to see if your HD receiver has a gamma control as well. If so, then you might be able to use that to tweak live broadcasts as well, saving you the trouble of diddling with gamma in the TV's service menu.


Using a source-based gamma controls may degrade the color palette a bit, which is probably more noticeable (in the form of banding) if you're trying to brighten the image rather than darken it. This will probably be more difficult to spot on a CRT than it would be on a FPD though.


> Quote:
> Film based gamma for theater (dark) viewing is a 2.5 gamma curve.



Maybe we're referring to different things here, but I think motion-picture film and slides have more in the neighborhood of a 1.5 viewing gamma. This link probably gives a better explanation of what I mean by this.


----------



## loadams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Although the RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB are global in that they can only store a single value for all modes, the calibration of these controls can be effected by other input & signal sensitive controls for hue and color in the service menu. If the different picture modes (Vivid, Standard, Movie, Pro) don't have the same Color and Hue settings in the User menu, then the calibration will be thrown off when you switch between these modes as well.
> 
> 
> There also appear to be some 1080i color offset controls at CXA2151/CBGN, CRGN, YGN, which may allow you to better align the color decoding of 33.75khz-1080i signals to match 31.5khz-480p/960i signals. If you're noticing an obvious and consistent difference between 480p/960i signals and 1080i signals via all inputs (or the IDSW setting), and it isn't correctable via some other color or hue control, then these CXA2151 controls may allow you to fix it.
> 
> 
> As I mentioned earlier though, there may also be a little variation between _inputs_ too, particularly between the analog (component/CVYC/RF) versus digital inputs (DVI/HDMI/MS/Firewire), which should also be easily correctable via some of the sub-color (and if necessary sub-hue) controls in the SM.



Thanks ADU, will look into that tonight when I get home. Funny thing is, with the same input, forcing the various scan rates (full, 960i, 1080i) color decoder "looks" dead on for all rates, it's just when I return to 480p it's off again. Like I said earlier, cycling the set returns the decoder to normal for 480p. Go figure.


Keep this thing going guys, I certainly enjoy learning.


----------



## ADU

I guess I'm still not quite clear what you mean by "cycling the set".


One thing I'll add though is that 2170P-3 UCOF (and UHOF) do appear to store different values for 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i for each input. IOW, the 2170P-3 commands are both input and _signal_ sensitive. So some signal-dependent tweaking of the color decoders can probably be done there too (if you have the patience for that).


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I guess I'm still not quite clear what you mean by "cycling the set".
> 
> 
> One thing I'll add though is that 2170P-3 UCOF (and UHOF) do appear to store different values for 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i for each input. IOW, the 2170P-3 commands are both input and _signal_ sensitive. So some signal-dependent tweaking of the color decoders can probably be done there too (if you have the patience for that).



"Cycling" generally means re-cycling power. In other words, turn the set off and then on. Usually the term used is "cycling power."


Cheers!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And also 2170P-4/SCOL & SHUE (which is what I used to tweak DVI on my TV instead of using the 2170P-3 controls, to save some time).



Indeed there are several places where Color, Hue, and other menu-slider offsets can be tweaked. It's important to be aware of them all:


(1) 2170P-4 #4-6/SPIO-SHUO appear to be global offsets for Picture, Color, and Hue, with values of 0-15. The service manual specifies defaults of 4-9-7, but my set came with 7-7-7 (the midpoints). If my Hue or Color sliders were off on all inputs, meaning for me that 31 is not the calibrated setting for *any* input, I would start here. I have left them alone. They show only one column in the service-data chart.


(2) 2170P-4 #1-3, ****-SHUE appear to be the same as (1) but are specific to 5 broad categories: DRC-processed signals, component inputs (V5/6), HDMI input, MS/ATSC (memory stick and digital tuner), or something called "passthrough." So these codes have 5 columns each in the data chart. They are pretty wide categories.


(3) 2170P-3 #13-15, UBOF-UHOF, for Brightness (black level), Color, and Hue. These are specific to each combination of video input *and* input-scan rate, 17 columns in the chart. Here is where you can balance these three parameters among your signal sources. I balance Brightness here, but I keep the Color and Hue values identical for DVD, MS, and all broadcast sources -- so a calibration from a DVD or MS source is valid for broadcast inputs. My VCRs are then tweaked to make them look like the calibrated sources.


None of these are directly part of color-matrix (decoding) calibration. The two parameters that affect its accuracy, however, must be set properly first: Color (amount) and Hue (tint, color phase). Brightness and Picture have no direct effect on color-decoding calibration.


It should be obvious that there are more than one way to "tune" the Color, Hue, Brightness, and even Picture parameters among the large number of unput/video combinations. A good strategy would be to accomplish calibration for the broadest categories of offsets first (#1, above), then do the finicky input-dependent diddling last (#3).


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB should only be needed globally. It can be used to correct the color of red and green (if you have a color analyzer to measure the colors by their x/y coordinates). Ken, this is one area where your cloudy sky won't be any help.



Well, no, of course not. The color-drive and cutoff setup should be performed with a completely black-and-white signal, and turning down the Color slider to "Min" accomplishes this. The "cloudy sky" standard is valuable only in setting color temperature of white.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And like I said before, I'm still not certain I understand all this gamma stuff. And after contemplating it some more, my previous certitude re what grey should appear neutral on a TV has begun to give way to uncertainty again.



Without minimizing at all the intellectual and engineering aspects of this gamma thing that give *some* of us an inordinate amount of pleasure, I really believe that pleasing the eye is paramount: If I have set black level and Picture (max white) correctly, and it *still* looks dark, I want a lower gamma. How it looks is all that matters.


Having said that, I do want to know what the gamma is for my display so I can occasionally make judgements about the video source. But for entertainment material, I want that gamma control -- and all we can do with these sets is custom-configure a couple of the Picture modes for that purpose. I use Pro and Movie for gammas of approx 2.45 (GAMR,G,B = 0) and 2.2 (GAMR,G,B = 3), and one of those generaly works fine. Splitting hairs further seems unproductive. Even though I originally set up Standard with gamma = 2.0, I never use it.


I would substitute in your quote above the word "flexibility" for "uncertainty." Your words "should appear neutral" likely have no practical meaning in a world of nonstandard entertainment video -- although DVD releases of redent films seem, indeed, to be remarkably well-calibrated and consistent. A real pleasure!


----------



## KenTech

*15 - THE COLOR OF BLACK: OTHER POSSIBLE COLOR ADJUSTMENTS*


Aside from all of the color-decoding (RYR-GYB), display (cutoff and drive), and Hue- and Color-offset controls that need calibration, there are a couple of less-obvious adjustments that can be quite a bit off as factory-supplied.


The most important of these more-obscure adjustments are 2170P-1 #2-4/YOF, CBOF, and CROF. There are different settings saved for 13 video classes: anything that uses DRC, plus component, HDMI, and MS/ATSC inputs for each of four scan rates (480i and -p, 720p, 1080i).


As an orientation, consider the probable color-processing/display chain. (1) Digital MS and ATSC (digital tuner) signals have their colors decoded according to the digital standards. The color from analog sources enters the chain at this point, when chosen. (2) Color is then subjected to the RYR-GYB color matrix, where red and green are pushed (or not) by robbing from other colors. Think zero-sum game, here. Tint/Hue is adjustable here, too. (3) Then comes the Color control slider, like a volume control for color. (4) Following this is the derivation of the drive voltages for the three guns in the CRT: RGB cutoff and RGB drive in 2170P-1. (5) The result is displayed by the CRT. You can see why the CRT-voltage setup is fundamental and must be set up first.


So what are these other red and blue adjustments? It appears as if CBOF and CROF are blue and red offsets added to the color output for the several color decoders in part (1) of the signal chain, as proposed above. You can see a misadjustment, for example, when tuning from one HD channel to another: Before the picture locks in, there is a background glow if you crank Brightness up a bit, and - holy moly! - it might have *color* if you crank Color up to max. Oops! Obviously not a consequence of bad setup for the CRT in part (4); otherwise the Color control wouldn't affect it.


My set's black glow was quite yellowish for HD and reddish-pink for the DVE-DVD showing video black. I separately adjusted CBOF and CROF for blue and red, respectively, for 1080i ATSC, 720p ATSC, 480i ATSC, and DVD/component sources. Values were adjusted by amounts of 2-15, turns out, and the black-color vanished. I never chose to adjust YOF (luminance offset). You have to WRITE the settings after each change; otherwise the instant you change channels, the settings are lost.


**************

ADU mentioned some potential color adjustments in group CXA2171 #3-5/CBGN, CRGN, YGN. I experimented with these, and they appear to be gain controls, plain and simple, for blue and red (relative to green), and overall luminance. It doesn't seem that the adjustments are as sophisticated as the color-matrix controls of RYR-GYB, and, as ADU suggests, they seem not to apply to analog material. (I haven't tested SD-digital or MS yet.) I note that the skin tones of my digital channels match very well their analog equivalents when simulcast. Absent an HD color-pattern generator or a high-quality broadcast pattern, I can't see how else to adjust this.


The service manual's block diagram identifies the CXA2171 as the YUV Switch. It takes inputs from HDMI, ATSC, and component video, selects one, and sends it on to the rest of the color-processing chain. These adjustments may be tweaks for a specific chip and would be have to be readjusted if it were repaired. Since I don't see a problem that needs correction, I'm leaving my settings in this group alone for now.


I think we're running out of color adjustments (whew!). Anyone know of others (not connected with TwinView windows or closed-captioning)?


----------



## ptchristensen

I have been adjusting geometry extensively lately, and one of the problems is that my ATSC-HD signal is rolling on some channels and a grey static patters on others.


Does anyone know which setting I need to correct?


----------



## Tmansdc

What is the service code to a KV-32FS120 please? Thanks.


----------



## ADU

Not a clue, Tmansdc. However, if there aren't any other threads on that model, and noone else knows, then you could try contacting Sony, per the info in Post #165 .


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It seems on my set, changing any parameter in IDSW ( checking geometry, color decoding, etc for other scan rates) does something "goofy" in respect with my CORRECT color decoder values ( produces lack of green). One minute it's dead on, next, GONE. Will look into it further.
> 
> 
> Let me clarify further. I forced a 1080i scan rate using IDSW to check color decoding for HD. Good to go. But when I returned back to 480p, green was way off. Cycled the set, 480p is back to normal. I guess nothing to get sweaty about after all.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Funny thing is, with the same input, forcing the various scan rates (full, 960i, 1080i) color decoder "looks" dead on for all rates, it's just when I return to 480p it's off again. Like I said earlier, cycling the set returns the decoder to normal for 480p. Go figure.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> "Cycling" generally means re-cycling power. In other words, turn the set off and then on. Usually the term used is "cycling power."



I guess I'm still not entirely clear on the exact sequence of events here.


In general though, what I would probably recommend is adjusting the 2170P-4/RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB color decoders for 480i. Then if these color decoders look noticeably off with 480p/1080i, you could try to fix the 480p/1080i by using either CXA2151/CBGN, CRGN, YGN, or using the 2170P-3/UCOF sub-color controls.


The RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB color decoders cannot store two distinct values for 480i and 480p/1080i (on my TV anyway). So if there's a visible discrepancy between the two scanrates, a different set of controls must be used to correct 480p/1080i to match the 480i.


The only way I know to do that offhand is via the CXA2151/CBGN, CRGN, YGN offsets or the 2170P-3/UCOF sub-color (and if necessary 2170P-3/UHOF sub-hue) controls.


If you have a newer model TV than mine, then the CBGN, CRGN, YGN offsets may, as Ken points out, be found in the CXA21*7*1 group instead of CXA21*5*1. (It sounds like this chip/circuit may have been upgraded in some TVs newer than my 34XBR800.)


If you don't notice much difference between the color decoders for 480i and 480p/1080i, or aren't that picky, then just ignore all this.

*If you notice the change only when you switch to a different video input, then it may just be an _input-related_ issue rather than a signal/scanrate-related issue, which is something that can generally be fixed simply by tweaking the color saturation on the inputs using either the 2170P-3/UCOF or 2170P-4/SCOL controls, as mentioned on the previous page.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> "Cycling" generally means re-cycling power. In other words, turn the set off and then on. Usually the term used is "cycling power."



Also, let the set warm up a bit before trying to make such discrete color decoder adjustments.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ADU mentioned some potential color adjustments in group CXA2171 #3-5/CBGN, CRGN, YGN. I experimented with these, and they appear to be “gain” controls, plain and simple, for blue and red (relative to green), and overall luminance... Absent an HD color-pattern generator or a high-quality broadcast pattern, I can't see how else to adjust this.



As mentioned above, these CBGN, CRGN, YGN offsets may only come in handy if you discover a noticeable discrepancy between 480i and 480p/1080i when adjusting your RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB color decoders.


Again, if after adjusting RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB for 480i, you discover that these color decoder settings don't work quite so well for 480p/1080i, you can probably use CBGN, CRGN, YGN (or maybe the 2170P-3/UCOF control) to correct the latter. Just use the same pattern of color bars that you did for the 480i color decoder adjustment, and tweak CBGN, CRGN, and YGN as necessary until the pattern comes back into line for the red, green, and blue guns at 480p/1080i (using 2170P-2/RGBS or the DVE filters to switch between the different color guns). That's how I'd probably go about it.


(Note: If you have an XBR960 or above, then the Advanced Video-- Default and Monitor Color Axes may give you another way of handling color decoder discrepancies between different signals/scanrates. See Posts #189 and #190 below for more.)

_[Edited to reflect more recent info on the CXA2151 controls. Please see the info on the MTRX control later in the thread as well, since that will also effect these adjustments.]_


----------



## GlenC

I worked on a XBR960 yesterday. Once the color decoder was adjusted using RYR and RYB to balance White, Yellow, Magenta and Red, then using GYR and GYB to balance White, Yellow, Cyan and Green, it was good for all inputs we tested, input 7, input 5 and ATSC for 480i, 480p, 720p(ATSC) and 1080i.


The gray scale was done first on input 1 at 480i, then, CBOF and CROF were adjusted in video 5 and video 7 to achieve the correct gray scale for each input. After the white balance calibration, a re-check of the color decoder resulted in accurate decoding in all inputs.


My initial comment, RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB should only be needed globally. It can be used to correct the color of red and green (if you have a color analyzer to measure the colors by their x/y coordinates) was not correct, while they correct the color decoding, as mentioned above, there is no change in the actual color of Red or Green. The NTSC coordinates for Red are x .335 y .340, this XBR measured x .328 y .330, slightly off in the plus blue direction.


Just another article on gamma here


----------



## ADU

Cool. Thanks for the link, Glen.


Just out of curiosity, do you take your color readings with all three RGB guns active?


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Cool. Thanks for the link, Glen.
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, do you take your color readings with all three RGB guns active?



Which color readings?


I do Grayscale/White Balance with all guns active and only after Brightness, Picture/Contrast, Color and Hue are properly set. The color decoder should have no effect on grayscale. After white is set, Brightness and Contrast will need to be readjusted. (I did not take a color reading of red with all guns active)


I calibrate/adjust the decoder with the individual guns when available, it can eliminate errors in the color filters. I have 5+ different filter sets and all are slightly different. I use my Sony Broadcast Video Monitor to determine which filters are acceptable to use. With the XBR, you can input a SMPTE or other color decoder test pattern (DVD and signal generator), turn on blue only and adjust Color and Hue for each input. Then you can adjust the Red and Green portion of the color decoder for Default or Monitor color axis with red only and green only. The decoder settings are usually pretty close in the Monitor mode.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Which color readings?



Good question! Not sure about that, but I think you've just told me more or less what I wanted to know.


> Quote:
> I do Grayscale/White Balance with all guns active and only after Brightness, Picture/Contrast, Color and Hue are properly set.



Interesting.


> Quote:
> The color decoder should have no effect on grayscale.



Hmm... I guess I sort of look at it the other way round since I'm adjusting grey scale by eye. Which is why I try to get all decoder-related adjustments locked down as well as possible on my TV first before attempting grey scale.


> Quote:
> I calibrate/adjust the decoder with the individual guns when available, it can eliminate errors in the color filters.



Also interesting.


> Quote:
> I have 5+ different filter sets and all are slightly different. I use my Sony Broadcast Video Monitor to determine which filters are acceptable to use.



If you don't mind me askin, which did you use for the XBR960, filters or the RGBS service menu control to isolate the red, green and blue guns?


> Quote:
> The decoder settings are usually pretty close in the Monitor mode.



Now you lost me again. Are you referring to the "Pro" picture mode on the Sonys, or somethin else? Cuz on my 34XBR800 the color decoder values can't be changed for the different picture modes (Vivid, Standard, Movie, Pro). They all share one set of RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB color decoder values (though there are other color and temperature variations applied to them elsewhere.)


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> If you don't mind me askin, which did you use for the XBR960, filters or the RGBS service menu control to isolate the red, green and blue guns?



I use the isolated colors on the XBR960. Any time I can accurately eliminate the filters, I go that way. On my Mitsubishi, I adjust the colors then go into the service mode, isolate the colors and see what changes are needed, exit SM, adjust, back to SM and on and on. Can I actually see the difference, no, but I know it is calibrated/adjusted right, and that is my goal.



> Quote:
> Now you lost me again. Are you referring to the "Pro" picture mode on the Sonys, or somethin else? Cuz on my TV you can't change the color decoder values for the different picture modes (Vivid, Standard, Movie, Pro). They all share one set of RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB color decoder values (though there are color and temperature variations applied to them elsewhere.)



No, the XBR960 has a Monitor setting in the Advanced Video, Color Axis menu. However, when the decoder is properly set, it shouldn't matter which mode you are in. This is just an option if one cannot or doesn't know how to adjust the color decoder. If for some reason you need two decoder settings, it can be done here because the XBR960 has two memories for RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB.


----------



## ADU

Huh... no such feature on the 34XBR800. So folks with a 960 (or above?) can just switch to the "Monitor" Color Axis, and their color decoders at least should be a bit more in the ballpark without tweaking 'em in the SM?


...Or perhaps if it isn't too difficult to toggle between the Default & Monitor Color Axis, that might offer another (albeit a bit clumsier) method of compensating for any potential difference in color decoding between 480i and HD signals. (Just thinking out loud here.)


[Edited to reflect more recent info on the CXA2151 controls.]


----------



## ADU

Is there a difference in the grey scales between the Default and Monitor Color Axes, or is it strictly the color decoders that differ between them?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there a difference in the grey scales between the Default and Monitor Color Axes, or is it strictly the color decoders that differ between them?



Strictly the color decoder. You can assign *any* setting of RYR-GYB to, say, "Monitor," and set different values for "Default." The 2170P-1 "Cutoff" and "Drive" adjustments for gray scale are totally independent and are global, i.e. for all inputs and modes. They can be calibrated with Color all the way off ("Min").


Note that the minor red and blue equalizing tweaks available in 2170P-1 #3 and 4/CBOF and CROF add to whatever the Cutoff adjustments are. See my article #15.


----------



## ADU

Thanks for clarifying Ken. If/when you get a chance I wonder if you might post the values you're using for the RGB Drives/Cutoffs. I know these probably won't translate from one TV to another, but I'm just sort of curious to compare with someone else's settings, especially since you also used the Neutral Color Temp. Here's what mine are currently.


RDRV=31

GDRV=15

BDRV=21

RCUT=31

GCUT=15

BCUT=21


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been adjusting geometry extensively lately, and one of the problems is that my ATSC-HD signal is rolling on some channels and a grey static patters on others.
> 
> 
> Does anyone know which setting I need to correct?



I think I'd be afraid to suggest anything on this for fear of making matters even worse. If this began after you started working in the SM, then it might be worth the $20 to contact Sony's Non-authorized Service Support line. Or simply to have the unit serviced. It could also be an issue with your tuner, which is something I'd know nothing about since my TV doesn't have one.


The only items in the SM that come to mind for me are possibly 2170D-3/VDST, or possibly some of the settings in CXA2151 (which may be CXA2171 on the XBR960), like maybe VTC, HTC, HWID, HSEP or HMSK. I don't know exactly what any of these do though, or whether it's safe to fiddle with them. So you're on your own on that.


I suppose some of the horizontal and vertical raster adjustments in 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 might put things out of sync as well. Another possible category to look at might be 2170D-5. I don't know what most of the settings in there do though either. And fiddling with stuff you don't know about could as I say make matters even worse, which is why I'd probably suggest contacting Sony instead. Sorry I can't be more help on this one.


----------



## GlenC

The major issue with the level of Drive and Cut is with the levels you want Brightness and Contrast controls set. When you reduce the Cut, Brightness settings will increase. When you increase Drive, Contrast/Picture settings will decrease. This is helpful on TVs that cannot adjust the midpoint of the user controls. For example, if Brightness was properly set at 25, then if you were to decrease the Cut settings, the brightness would need to be increased and it could be adjusted so Brightness was properly set at 31 or what ever the target or midpoint might be.


Yes, all TVs will be slightly different and room conditions can also affect settings. I have a few settings from various calibrations:


Each of the three resulted in Gray scale very close to 6500K.

RDRV= 49, 34, 45

GDRV= 39, 26, 32

BDRV= 34, 29, 22

RCUT= 42, 15, 32

GCUT= 23, 15, 22

BCUT= 16, 21, 23


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think I'd be afraid to suggest anything on this for fear of making matters even worse. If this began after you started working in the SM, then it might be worth the $20 to contact Sony's Non-authorized Service Support line. Or simply to have the unit serviced. It could also be an issue with your tuner, which is something I'd know nothing about since my TV doesn't have one.
> 
> 
> The only items in the SM that come to mind for me are possibly 2170D-3/VDST, or possibly some of the settings in CXA2151 (which may be CXA2171 on the XBR960), like maybe VTC, HTC, HWID, HSEP or HMSK. I don't know exactly what any of these do though, or whether it's safe to fiddle with them. So you're on your own on that.
> 
> 
> I suppose some of the horizontal and vertical raster adjustments in 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 might put things out of sync as well. Another possible category to look at might be 2170D-5. I don't know what most of the settings in there do though either. And fiddling with stuff you don't know about could as I say make matters even worse, which is why I'd probably suggest contacting Sony instead. Sorry I can't be more help on this one.



Actually I believe it is the CXA2171 FIXS setting for ATSC 720p/1080i needs to be set at 2.


----------



## ADU

I really have no idea, so I'll happily defer to your opinion on this.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I really have no idea, so I'll happily defer to your opinion on this.



Thanks ADU and GLENC - CXA2171 FIXS did the trick.


Another question:


As a result of my extensive geometry corrections, the menues that are displayed when pressing "display" are off. Does any of you know which of the MID settings include the geometry settings for this menu.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As a result of my extensive geometry corrections, the menues that are displayed when pressing "display" are off. Does any of you know which of the MID settings include the geometry settings for this menu.



The original Excel-spreadsheet version of the service data describes some of the auxiliary-displays and windows with codes appearing in the MID1 thru MID3 groups.


Some of the abbreviations are Index, COM, Favorites, Twin-Left, Twin-Right, etc. The last two characters of the codes are VP and HP for Vertical Position and Horizontal Position, and VS and HS apparently mean vertical and horizontal size, but it's hard to guess the first two characters: SDVP and SDHP are listed as being for the Favorites window. I don't know what "Index" means -- the memory-stick window?


I suggest you check out the service-data chart for that model. For the MID_ codes, column 3 seems to have some cryptic but useful identifications: SDHP = s_disp_hpos, DHPW = d_h_pwidth, and MDHP = m_disp_hpos, for example. Well, it's better than nothing!


You could do worse than diddle the vaues for every "-HP" or "-VP" code to see which jiggles the menus you're concerned with. MID1 #0 and 1/DHPH and DVPH are listed as "COM--Horizontal (Vertical) Position," for what it's worth.


Please post your experience with these!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If/when you get a chance I wonder if you might post the values you're using for the RGB Drives/Cutoffs.



SBRT = 31 (with Brightness slider set to 31)

R,G,BDRV = 41-26-21

R,G,BCUT = 32-14-16


In 2170P-3, the black-level offsets (UBOF) look like this, per input:

RF = 4, V1 (a JVC VCR) = 2, V5 (DVD player) = 0, HD tuner = 5.


I used the Drive values to guarantee an adequate "Picture" brightness for normal evening viewing of SD analog-cable broadcast with the Picture slider set to 31. The settings are for Neutral and approx 6500K. I have set Warm to +2 red and -2 blue, and Cool the reverse (with 31 being the "zero"-point of those offsets).


----------



## ADU

Thanks, Ken.


I guess I should have exercised the search tool a little before asking about those values, because I see now that you already posted some of them elsewhere in thread. Though it looks like the drive/cutoff values have changed a hair since then. Are you still using 2170P-1 YOF=7, CBOF=44, and CROF=47 for the memory stick, and adding a bit of blue to the midtones with GAMB per Post #30 as well?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you still using 2170P-1 YOF=7, CBOF=44, and CROF=47 for the memory stick, and adding a bit of blue to the midtones with GAMB per Post #30 as well?



Hah! You caught me! Yes, the Obsessive Diddler has changed a few things.


I got a little smarter and tried to resolve the yellow-midtone issue *without* a different gamma for the blue gun. (The process reminds me of adjusting the intermediate-frequency coils on an old FM tuner -- you think you have one adjusted, then another one needs touching up.) My use of a higher blue gamma was a crutch, it turns out, and I have now gotten it perfectly adjusted without that. Fair warning to all!


I mentioned in another post how the color-decoder settings for MS can be fouled up by simply *being* in service mode, and I have come to realize that *one* adjustment really works for MS and video inputs. (RYR thru GYB are now set to 13-15-5-3.) [CORRECTED to 14-15-7-5 on 7/13. Sorry. Misread my own notes.]


Having recalibrated grayscale, I revisited 2170P-1/CBOF and CROF. Black for the RF tuner @ 480i seemed spot-on, so I checked out HD @ 720p and 1080i, ATSC SD, and my DVD input (V5/component). Made some small adjustments. I left YOF at defaults in all cases. So the YOF-CBOF-CROF sequences are now:


1080p and 720p = 7-52-49 (much higher CBOF)

480i Digital = 15-28-25 (lower CBOF and CROF)

Component/V5 for DVD = 15-33-25 (lower CBOF and CROF)

The memory stick apparently follows the 1080i setting.


A grumble: My lovely, expensive JVC SR-VS30 DV+SVHS deck has a noticable pink hue shift for all material, and it's a bear to compensate for. In 2170P-3 I set its input (V1/S-video) to UHOF = 3, and I still have to dial in a 2G Hue shift in the user menu. Calibration method: Displayed a precise 75% color-bar pattern at 720 X 480 on my computer and saved it in QuickTime as a zero-duration DV video file. Who knew you could do this? Then I sent that via FireWire to my JVC's FW input, and displayed it as a freeze-frame on the TV. Turns out the decoder matrix was perfect, but there was that hue shift. Now I can trust that my DV tapes from our Canon GL-2 video camera are being displayed correctly. (DV tape and FireWire share the same D/A converter.)


----------



## CrocHunter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think you will want to cal composite first, using the directions from KENTECH for setting SBRT, etc. Then component, adjusting UCOF and UBOF as needed.
> 
> If you find that you've run out of UBOF (max) on while cal'ing component, you will have to compromise and raise SBRT, off course starting all over again with composite.



Thanks for the advice, I think this is better to getting the black level right since if you do it with component inputs first, like i did, the black level on the composite inputs and HDMI input was too high and smokey, yet the black level was good with component.This is when i set SBRT to component first and put UBOF at 0 like kentech said.


So i take it i had SBRT too high, it was at 24,i'm going to lower it now by calibrating composite first as you said.Also if i calibrate composite first should i leave UBOF at the default 2 or turn it 0 when calibrating composite?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> if you do it with component inputs first, like i did, the black level on the composite inputs and HDMI input was too high and smokey



Best to begin by doing a quick run-through of your various components' black levels, noting which is the highest. Then begin with *that* one, with UBOF at 0 and adjusting SBRT to get that one right. Then compensate the other inputs as needed by raising UBOF for them.


(UBOF, of course, is common to each input *class,* such as S-video (V1-V3), component (V5, V6) etc., and the input-video mode. If you have two 480i S-video devices that don't agree in black level, you'll have to pick the one to adjust for. I have this problem with two VCRs.)


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hah! You caught me! Yes, the Obsessive Diddler has changed a few things.



FWIW, I wasn't tryin to catch nothin. Just interested in what numbers you're plugging in for comparisons sake.


I used a kind of homespun method of adjusting greyscales on my 34xbr800 as well via computer. So it's interesting to see how someone else approaches it. Judging by how Glen responded to your cloud approach, I'm sure my method (which involves various incantations and sacrifices to the HT gods) would probably have him rolling on the floor in agony.







If it's all right with you though, I'll throw caution to the wind and offer just a few observations on this stuff, which may or may not be worth the cyberspacial parchment they're typed on.


Like you I also chose the Neutral color mode for the exact same reason, because it appeared to have no offsets like the other Temps.


In addition to that, however I also decided to "zero-out" (as it were) 2170P-1 YOF, CBOF, and CROF for my primary input (DVI), because I was concerned that those adjustments might also be contributing to the red and blue bias of the TV. (The color decoders I'm afraid are not the cure to all of Sony's signature color bias.) After calibrating my color decoders, I actually went through all the possible color adjustments for DVI 1080i that I could find, hunting for other potential offenders/contributors to color bias (which is how I also happened to experiment with the CXA2151 offsets). And aside from the grey scale adjustments, YOF, CBOF and CROF were the only ones that looked like potential candidates. The default values on my TV for YOF, CBOF and CROF were 7-44-41, which (everything else being equal) to my mind said-- red and blue push. So I set them to YOF=7, CBOF=31, CROF=31, and for better or worse, have left them there ever since (for 1080i DVI).


The adjunct to this story however is that I'm also using the 1080i that bypasses the DRC/MID circuits... which is why I'm sort of resistant to offering others who may not be using the same signal path much input on this subject... because I can't promise that my approach will work with the regular 1080i signal path due to the add'l processing it receives in the DRC/MID circuits. For the sake of intellectual curiosity, we'll just ignore that though for the rest of this post, and assume it don't... er, doesn't matter.


OK. So I've already done my color decoders. I've Neutralized my Color Temp and the YOF, CBOF, CROF offsets as best I know how. So what's next? Well, grey scales naturellement... which is of course the real nightmare. After reading a couple FAQs about clouds and light meters and trying a few experiments, I decide to take a leap of faith and fashion my own method since I don't have either of those things readily at hand, with the goal of simply trying to elicite the widest and subtlest range of color possible from the tube. Whether that's the same goal as the 6500k and cloud approach, I dunno at this point, but it's all I have. So I forge ahead. (Notice we've now moved into a more present tense for this bit of the flashback. Whether it's present participle, past participle or past imperfect I'm not sure though, as english was never my forte. Anyway...)


Step #1, rather than worrying about using the grey scale to control contrast, I decide instead to begin with normalized values, namely 31 across the board, and to leave the Red Drive and Cutoff at 31, and only adjust the green and blue. This may have been one the suggestions I read somewhere else, like perhaps in the grey scale section around page 6 of the GWII FAQ , or not, I don't really remember. Since it seemed to simplify things though, I go with it. Anything that simplifies is good, since I really have no idea what the **** I'm doin anyway. It seems a logical (and perhaps also providencial) way to proceed though.


This brings us to our (or rather, your) current RGB Drive/Cut settings...


41-26-21

32-14-16


...which look very untidy and unsimplified to me because the Red values aren't normalized for 31. So let's try to fix that. My math was never too good either, but if I transpose your values so the Red drive and cutoff is 31, I think that gives us around...


31-16-11

31-13-15


Still not the same as my 31-15-21, 31-15-21... but closer. Blue is still misbehaving, but the red and green relationships are now settling down, and beginning to look more within the margin of error for something being assessed purely by eye.


The first thing I notice when doing my own grey scale adjustments (and just to keep our timeline straight, this is long before your very helpful and informative SM thread came into existence) is that I'm getting very similar values for both my drives and cutoffs for a given color component. So I take another leap of faith (since I've done my best to neutralize the color bias everywhere else I can think to do so) and decide to try entering the same values for both drive and cutoff on each component and then adusting them up and down in tandem like one single control. It's just a dumb linear voltage adjustment I say to myself. And if I were a smart engineer, I probably would have implemented them that way to simplify things. During my reading for example, I ran across some TVs which didn't even have cutoff controls.


To my stunned amazement this tandem approach actually seems to work!... So now I'm like really stoked. I think I've cracked Sony's elusive color code and may actually be able to see colors on their TV that resemble something close to what the original video authors intended. So I proceed with renewed vigor and vitality to conquer my 34XBR800's greyscales...


Looking at your transposed greyscales now (which were also done via the Neutral Temp)...


31-16-11

31-13-15


...I see what seems to be a similar pattern, namely the value for the drive setting is not that different than the cutoff value for that component. They're nowhere near the wild and seemingly random grey scale values I've seen on other people's sets anyway. Again, my math ain't too good, but if you average the drive and cutoff values out (like I would have for my tandem approach), then you get:


31-15-13


Now our reds and greens are both right on the money. And at this point I feel comfortable revealing that I used an entirely different method to adjust my red and green components than yours or Glen's. For one thing, the Color was on (at the color decoder calibrated level). For another, I used a pattern of color bars. Then all I did was go into the SM and disable the blue gun with RGBS, and tweaked GDRV and GCUT together until I got the most distinct looking reds, greens, and most importantly, yellows. Yellows that did not seem to favor either red or green but which were as distinct as possible from them. This got me into the neighborhood of 15, which was then further refined after I looked for color bias in my blacks.


Back to the present... and our TVs still seem to be disagreeing on exactly what blue is. Yours says its around 13 or so, mine says around 21. Maybe our blue guns or phosphors just work differently? That's quite possible. Or maybe the discrepancy lies somewhere else. You're looking at clouds after all, while I'm busying myself (long before the fact) just looking for color differentiation. So I begin to take a closer look at the two methodologies. There must be an error in my approach I figure, so I try setting blue to 13 instead of 21... No-go. Now my whites are lookin too yellow. And other colors seem to overpower my blues. So I look elsewhere for an answer. And a few other possibilities shortly present themselves...


First (I think to myself), Ken's adding blue via his Gamma controls. Which means his greys must be lookin a bit yellowish at 13 too... I dig a little deeper and also find that by his own admission Ken's white reference is actually a bit off the ideal 6500k and probably more in the neighborhood of 6100k... A little more digging and I find Glen's chromaticity chart, which (if I'm reading it correctly) tells me that 6100k has more yellow in it than 6500k. So now I'm beginnin to suspect there's a rat, or a fly somewhere in the ointment, and maybe my 21 setting isn't that nutty after all. Ken may be trying to match a more yellowish reference to begin with (I have no white reference btw, all I'm looking for is maximum color differentiation), and also seems to be trying to compensate for excess yellow with the GAMB control. So now I'm thinkin his 13 is a little low and maybe he needs to add some more blue in there like I got, to bring his somewhat yellowish 6100k more into the neighborhood of "6500k" (whatever that is).


Then I look at his YOF, CBOF, CROF settings, and see he hasn't neutralized these the way I did. Both his red and blue are elevated compared to mine. More blue (and red) being added in. So maybe that's also why he's dialing blue back down via BDRV & BCUT. And the pieces (some of them anyway) seem to be falling into place... And yet I still don't know whether to speak up because this could all just be in my head, and bringing this stuff up might sort of offend some folks, and make people think I've got some kinna ego problem. And for all I know the MS may work differently than DVI (though I secretly sort of doubt that, since they're probably both essentially digital RGB inputs). So I vascillate briefly and then decide to post this message to see if Ken and Glen (who's names I just now notice rhyme) think old ADU is some idiot video savant, or just having some bad hallucinations brought on by the monsoonal SoCal heat.









_This post dedicated to R.W. and the other southern AVSers who've hopefully made it through another nasty hurricane in one piece somewhere in the ******* Riviera._


----------



## wohlstad

KenTech,


A while back you posted some good Memory Stick test patterns for SFP tubes. Do you have any patterns which alternate horizontal and vertical lines by 1 pixel - both in 1440x1080 and 1920x1080?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You could do worse than diddle the vaues for every "-HP" or "-VP" code to see which jiggles the menus you're concerned with. MID1 #0 and 1/DHPH and DVPH are listed as "COM--Horizontal (Vertical) Position," for what it's worth.
> 
> 
> Please post your experience with these!




Still searching for the SM settings to control the "display" menu. I found a way to move in x and y positions in the QM menu, but none to control the depth.


I do not know if the QM menu is XBR960 specific, but in the GPTN and PATN there are some great patterns and color swatches. If we just knew resolution and such it would be even greater.


----------



## CrocHunter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Best to begin by doing a quick run-through of your various components' black levels, noting which is the highest. Then begin with *that* one, with UBOF at 0 and adjusting SBRT to get that one right. Then compensate the other inputs as needed by raising UBOF for them.
> 
> 
> (UBOF, of course, is common to each input *class,* such as S-video (V1-V3), component (V5, V6) etc., and the input-video mode. If you have two 480i S-video devices that don't agree in black level, you'll have to pick the one to adjust for. I have this problem with two VCRs.)



Thanks for the advice, today i finally found a happy medium for black level and will leave at that!!!


I adjust ed composite first with UBOF at 0 and SBRT at 20 for all inputs, it seemed to me with the pluge patterns it looked the best and gives a lot of choices for UBOF for the other settings.


Here's what i ended up with:


Video 1-4: UBOF-0


Component1-2: UBOF-3 for 480p and 480i as well as HD 1080i and 720p.


Antenna: UBOF-0


HDMI: UBOF-0


NOw i got Perfect black level with plenty of shadow detail while still being black, that was the goal.


Thanks for making my day!


----------



## ADU

Ken,


A couple other thoughts on this grey scale business, and then I'll shut my yap.










Other TVs may be different, but I've notice on my TV that the Gamma controls (GAMR, GAMG, GAMB) do not behave just like a simple midpoint adjustment. They also have a pronounced effect on the black level and/or contrast on each component. Consequently I'd probably be alot more hesitant to try to use them _individually_ to make color corrections on the grey scale, because of the potential variability they might add to the color of blacks (especially given that I treat the grey scale drives and cutoff as a single control). Like I mentioned above, perhaps that's one reason why your Blue drive/cutoff settings ended up lower than mine (because GAMB was driving up the brightness/contrast of Blue elsewhere). And it might also be one of the first culprits I'd suspect in any odd behavior in the color bias of the blacks. Maybe I'm overstating the problem, but it just seems like offsetting color via gamma might add an unnecessary variable that could potentially create other difficulties down the line. (Maybe Glen has a different view on this.)


There's also the potential issue of elevated reds and blues at CROF and CBOF. And I can't help but wonder if that (in combination with some initial misadjustment due to GAMB) could be a possible source of pinkness on some of your inputs.


Re hue and color controls... AFAIK the only thing those should be used for (including the UHOF & UCOF offsets) is to tweak the adjustment of color decoding (primarily blue color decoding). If the color decoder patterns look correct on a given input, then I suspect that tinkering further with hue and color offsets won't help much. This is probably somethin you already know though.


----------



## loadams

Okay Gents, since we are no longer in TV 101, may I ask your thoughts on setting "Blanking" and "Overscan" ?


I have a "rounded corner" in my lower left that is adjusted out with 5% overscan. Should I keep blanking consistent with overscan ( at 0% overscan) then adjust out to 5% with the sizing controls or does it really matter?


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> just having some bad hallucinations brought on by the monsoonal SoCal heat.



Whare in SoCal?


Let me clear up a few points. I have nothing against DIY projects, my input on gray scale calibration was to inform about the methods and specifications used when someone pays for a calibration and or has the equipment to accurately measure color. Customers deserve the most accurate adjustment the display is capable of.


For DIY calibration, consider an optical comparator. You can use something as simple as a photo gray card (one side is 18% the other is white) and a 6500K light (possibly a 6500K LED key chain flashlight). Display a white field on the TV, from a few feet away from the TV (possibly 6), hold up the card in front of half of the screen and shine the light on it (ambient light will affect the color). The color of the TV screen should match the color of the card.


The XBR960/910 is very capable of achieving a very flat grayscale from 10 IRE to 100 IRE. I have not experimented with the individual R, G & B Gamma adjustments because the Gray scales I have seen were accurate 10 IRE to 100 IRE in steps of 10. If the low end was good and the high end was good and there were errors in the middle, then possible individual gamma adjustment might correct that.


ADU,

You will get in trouble if you try to use numerical relationships in the drives and cuts to achieve a gray scale. If the CRT was perfect there would be no reason for both Drive and Cut adjustments, however being electronic components, far from NASA specs, there are variances in the components resulting in the need for both. If you choose one color for a reference, Green is usually used, then Blue and Red are adjusted to achieve the desired White balance. There are always differences in the Drive/Cut relationships for each color. With white, it is fairly easy for the eye to see if there is too much Red or Green in the white and even at 20 IRE or below, but just how much is needed is difficult. A little too much blue just looks gray, but can be way off from 6500K. Just don't error towards Green. The color analyzer can see changes in color from just one click (for example from 14 to 15). A change in Cut, will cause a change in Drive, they are totally interactive, but not on a 1 to 1 ratio. An increase in Cut of 2 does not mean you need to change Drive by 2.


Before the acquisition of my test equipment, I did DIY calibrations on my Marquee projector. When I finally got the gray scale where I thought it was good, I was happy. When I got the equipment (guess what my first test display was), I started checking. Well, much to my surprise, it was way off, especially on the low end, below 50 IRE. It was over 10000K and the upper end was better, but around 8000K. Now that it is close to 6500K at both ends, viewing is much more pleasurable and the flesh tones are the best they have ever been. Viewing TV for so many years with 10000K to 12000K gray scales makes the transition to 6500K difficult and it takes time to get use to it.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've notice on my TV that the Gamma controls (GAMR, GAMG, GAMB) do not behave just like a simple midpoint adjustment. They also have a pronounced effect on the black level and/or contrast on each component.



Make sure that GAMS is zero, as well as BLK. With these conditions, my gamma settings seem to affect only the midpoint. GAMS complicates things, as do any settings that dynamically affect luminance response.


> Quote:
> Consequently I'd probably be alot more hesitant to try to use them _individually_ to make color corrections on the grey scale, because of the potential variability they might add to the color of blacks (especially given that I treat the grey scale drives and cutoff as a single control).



A good caution! But I don't think this plagued me, as my black "color" remained the same after making the grayscale corrections with identical gamma settings for the three colors.


> Quote:
> There's also the potential issue of elevated reds and blues at CROF and CBOF. And I can't help but wonder if that (in combination with some initial misadjustment due to GAMB) could be a possible source of pinkness on some of your inputs.



No, those black-tints remained after correcting gamma and grayscale, and they were then corrected. They are listed as *offsets,* not *gains,* and that's the way they seem to behave. Because these offsets add to the ones you are calibrating when doing grayscale, you should do grayscale with Color at Min.


> Quote:
> Re hue and color controls... AFAIK the only thing those should be used for (including the UHOF & UBOF offsets) is to tweak the adjustment of color decoding (primarily blue color decoding).



But Hue and Color are totally different from the decoding matrix, and the sub-settings of UHOF and UCOF exactly mimic the effect of the Hue and Color sliders. "Color" is *amount* of color, and "Hue" is color-phase, rotating the colors thru the circle of red-green-yellow-cyan-blue-indigo-magenta-red, again independent of the decoding matrix. If this weren't true, then the 75% color-bar test pattern would now appear screwed up -- and it doesn't.


(Psst, ADU -- please don't quote my *entire* message, as it bloats the thread! Select just the parts that you're responding to or you need as a reference. ;-) )


----------



## CrocHunter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Okay Gents, since we are no longer in TV 101, may I ask your thoughts on setting "Blanking" and "Overscan" ?
> 
> 
> I have a "rounded corner" in my lower left that is adjusted out with 5% overscan. Should I keep blanking consistent with overscan ( at 0% overscan) then adjust out to 5% with the sizing controls or does it really matter?



I'd just leave it alone, since the overscan is going to cover it up anyways.The overscan is there for a reason.


I did'nt touch overscan at all either accept positioning the picture right.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The default values on my TV for YOF, CBOF and CROF were 7-44-41, which (everything else being equal) to my mind said-- red and blue push. So I set them to YOF=7, CBOF=31, CROF=31, and for better or worse, have left them there ever since (for 1080i DVI).



Tackling a few points one at a time . . .


Further experiments on my part confirm that CBOF abd CROF do not contribute "push" at all and are simple offsets for red and blue, designed apparently to compensate for unintended color offsets with the various color decoders. "Push" is much more subtle than that and is really a zero-sum situation: adding red push by decreasing RYR and RYB increases red by "robbing" from or "stretching" adjacent colors on the color-wheel (hard to describe without a diagram). Colors near red are sucked toward red, and red robs from blue. Red wins, but other colors lose. In contrast, a red offset adds a constant amount of red to all displayed colors. Red "drive" adds a percentage of red to all displayed colors.


Beyond that, and out of our control, the exact red produced by the CRT's red phosphor creates a "look" for any TV, and the standard pure red, green, and blue color-coordinates defined for HDTV do *not* agree with any current CRT phosphor set.


Here's a test for setting CBOF and CROF correctly. Find a way to display dark-gray or "black" for a specific input-class. DVD thru component is easy: use DVE's "video black" screen or one of the grayscale ramps. For HD, black is displayed to the left and right of 4:3 material (e.g. commercials) and just before the statiion locks in. Raise the Brightness until "black" is visible as a noticable screen glow. _Whatever_ that "black" looks like should look _exactly the same_ with the Color control set to Min and set to Max. If the color drifts toward blue as Color is increased, CBOF is too high, for example.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Further experiments on my part confirm that CBOF and CROF do not contribute "push" at all and are simple offsets for red and blue



I agree



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> designed apparently to compensate for unintended color offsets with the various color decoders.



I disagree, it deals with the White Balance, not the color decoder.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here's a test for setting CBOF and CROF correctly. Find a way to display dark-gray or "black" for a specific input-class. DVD thru component is easy: use DVE's "video black" screen or one of the grayscale ramps. For HD, black is displayed to the left and right of 4:3 material (e.g. commercials) and just before the statiion locks in. Raise the Brightness until "black" is visible as a noticable screen glow. _Whatever_ that "black" looks like should look _exactly the same_ with the Color control set to Min and set to Max. If the color drifts toward blue as Color is increased, CBOF is too high, for example.



I see this a little different. By the book, and this makes sense,
White Balance is to be set in Neutral color temp, 480i, Video Input 1, CBOF and CROF both set at 31.
WB is set in Neutral" because R, G & B DRV & CUT change the Neutral Color Temp.

Cool and Warm are then set by the R,G & B DOF & COF.


Next, using CBOF and CROF, the White Balance is corrected in each of the other inputs, V5&6, HDMI and MS/ATSC, for each scan rate, 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i.
This method allows for White Balance calibration for each input and each scan rate.


I get more and more impressed with this TV as I learn and understand more of its capabilities.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I disagree, it deals with the White Balance, not the color decoder.



Only in the sense that the cutoffs for red, green, and blue "deal with" white balance. A lot of things affect white balance, but that doesn't explain very much nor point the way to an adjustment method.


The CBOF and CROF adjustments occur *before* the Color control, and their effects cannot be seen if Color is at Min (off). A simple experiment easily confirms this. The only thing that makes sense is to adjust the three-color drives and cutoffs with Color at Min so *that* part of the chain is calibrated. Now you can introduce color to the mix, and make further corrections as needed. I'll stick by the method I outlined as one way of doing it without instruments.


Setting "white balance" with a parameter that is affected by the Color slider makes no sense at all! White balance should be a characteristic of the display *independent* of the presence of any color in the video.


The method you say is "by the book" should specify Color to be at Min, and leave CROF and CBOF alone initially. Service-data defaults will do fine. Then follow the steps you listed for the drive and cutuff adjustments. Next, follow my method (using a suitable test generator) to establish what red or blue offset might exist for those inputs, and zero out those offsets with CROF amd CBOF.


You're not *setting* white balance with CBOF and CROF; you are *cancelling* nuisance color offsets introduced somehow before the Color control.


----------



## GlenC

Ken, I know you do not have the color analyzer to test this, but it works. I can actually measure the changes. When you adjust White to 6500K in input 1 (S-Video) with CBOF & CROF set to default 31, then go to say Video 5 and input a 1080i signal with a white field or 480p with a DVD then measure the temp, it probably will not be 6500K as V1/480i is. Using CBOF & CROF, you can fine tune V5/1080i/480p to 6500K. It works, I have done it and my color analyzer can detect differences of 1 or 2 in the settings. With a true white signal input, the Color setting should have no effect on the white field. If you do, there are other issues. The only function of the color slider is to set saturation. White levels change by input and scan rate because of the video signal processing in the different circuits based upon different bandwidth signals and processing circuits. The resulting signal/voltage for R, G, & B will/can have slightly different values. Gray scale tracking has already been set with Cut and Drive in V1/480i, now it is only the R, G, & B balances that needs adjusting for the different input options. This is why they only give adjustment for R & B. Once the Color Decoder is set, only saturation and hue need adjusting for the different input devices. This is why a DVD test disk is used with the DVD, an ATSC test generator through the ATSC devices (cable boxed don't have this option, hopefully access to the HDNET test pattern is an option).


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> but it works. I can actually measure the changes.



You *could* do it that way, but the methodology is fundamentally flawed. You are producing a TV that is *conditionally* calibrated: Once grayscale/whote balance is set up per your method, the Color slider can't be touched. The reason? By leaving the Color set to anything but zero, you are mixing the (a) input-dependent color offsets from whatever input you start with, with its possibly inaccurate default CBOF and CROF settings; and (b) the color offsets inherent in the processing that drives the CRT *after* the Color control, which are inherently *global.*


Note that you're probably stuck doing it this way if you are working with a TV that has no way of turning color all the way off; it would be the best you can do. If that's the ISF training you received, then that's its purpose but at the expense of sets that *do* have a color control that can be set to zero and whose grayscale calibration _could be universally calibrated_ by a more-sophisticated method that takes this into account. Your training should have explained the second method, as I described, to be used wherever it can be applied (and with your instruments and pattern generators).


Bottom line: These Sony sets we are discussing respond favorably to a more rigorous calibration method that guarantees correct white balance and gray scale *independent* of the Color control, and if your ISF training didn't point this out, then it falls short.


Technical tangent: From an engineer's perspective, it's a classic gain-and-offset problem: Two amplifiers, each with gain and offset adjustments, are separated by a volume control. How do you zero-out the offsets? Easy. Set the volume control (here, the Color slider) all the way to zero, and adjust the second amplifier for zero offset. Then crank up the volume control and adjust the first amplifier the same way. Done. Any other methodology confounds the offsets from the first and second amplifiers in a way so you can never get it right, except by accident. This symbolic/schematic problem has an accurate analogy in the color-processing signal path in these TVs, adding only an input-selector switch ahead of the Color control.


----------



## GlenC

Ken, You are missing something here or misunderstanding what I am saying.


As it pertains to relation of the color slider and white balance. The color slider should only change saturation, nothing more. Once you have your White Balance set, the color of white should not change with movement of the color slider.


ISF training is directed towards the standards and what we should be seeing. What really counts with a calibration is what we actually see when finished, maximizing the viewing experience. Many times the settings differ from the manufactures service settings and methods. All TVs are not created equal, however, the goal we try to achieve is the same for all. Do all calibrate to that goal, no, but we get as close as we can with each different situation.


Let's take your approach:
If you need to adjust CROF or CBOF because the color changes a little when the slider is set to MAX, then you adjust the color temp so white is uniform from Min to Max on the slider. Right?

Now my method:
Having previously set the color temp to 6500K, I go to a different input, adjust the Picture, Brightness, Color and Hue sliders to proper settings and measure the color of White. It needs some adjustment, say it was 6450K, I then adjust CROF and CBOF accordingly to get to 6500K at the proper viewing settings. Now I have a properly adjusted input that is displaying an accurate image. If the color slider needs to be changed, because of broadcast variances, there should be no change in white balance. Right?

Since the settings that will be used during viewing are the most important, I make sure those are the most accurate, therefore adjust with the color slider set for viewing, not max. I would rather see errors with the slider at max than at viewing settings. If calibrating with the slider at max yields a uniform gray scale, then with the accuracy of the color analyzer, adjustment with slider set at viewing setting would yield the same results. One thing I have never seen in a consumer TV service manual is reference to using any type of color analyzer to set color temp. Very few, if any TV repair technicians have a color analyzer.


While we are in this area, an additional offset that can be adjusted by input is YOF, this will adjust any luminance variances by input. A meter able to accurately measure the screen luminance is needed if adjustment is desired. YOF, CROF and CBOF are input/scan rate offsets for luminance and chroma signal variances in input devices. No two devices will be absolutely the same.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As it pertains to relation of the color slider and white balance. The color slider should only change saturation, nothing more. Once you have your White Balance set, the color of white should not change with movement of the color slider.



We absolutely agree on this. It changes the saturation of _whatever color that comes to it_. That includes (a) the video-signal's color *and* (b) whatever garbage colors are being generated by the input amplifiers & decoders. (I assure you, I understand the method you are using.)


> Quote:
> Having previously set the color temp to 6500K, I go to a different input, adjust the Picture, Brightness, Color and Hue sliders to proper settings and measure the color of White. It needs some adjustment, say it was 6450K, I then adjust CROF and CBOF accordingly to get to 6500K at the proper viewing settings. Now I have a properly adjusted input that is displaying an accurate image.



No, you have a conditionally adjusted complete signal path, which is a different matter.


> Quote:
> If the color slider needs to be changed, because of broadcast variances, there should be no change in white balance. Right?



Wrong, because you haven't used a method that guarantees that. What if that input is *generating* some color because of its nuisance offsets? The problem is with that *first* calibrated input.


Example: Let's suppose that input has some color offset, say +10 blue and -5 red. (You have no guarantee that any input has no offset.) You adjust the color balance exactly to 6500K and a linear grayscale with the Color slider in its normal position (31). CROF and CBOF are at their no-effect points (31 each), so they don't affect the offset. That color offset is passed on, through the Color control, to the drive-and-cutoff adjustment stage, where you presumably compensate for it, right? (Let's make the "units" of adjustment the same for now.) So you have set the three colors of cutoff and drive to compensate not only for (a) that TV's particular late-stage RGB-video amplifiers and CRT that are there, but also for (b) the +10 blue and -5 red offsets as well.


Now you play/tune-in a lovely B/W movie with no color content on that input. It looks perfect. But what happens if you turn the Color (saturation) down all the way? Even though the movie has no color, the input circuit offsets (+10 blue and -5 red) are still there, and I have just reduced them to zero saturation by turning the saturation to zero, isolating them from those later stages that you have calibrated -- except that those adjustments *subtracted* 10 blue and *added* 5 red to cancel out the offsets, and now there are no offsets.


Thus the color of the movie will change -- with the darkest tones now showing -10 red and +5 blue color casts or tints. That's a color shift with a change in the Color slider-setting, and your grayscale linearity and 6500K are out the window.


If, on the other hand, you had previously discovered those nuisance offsets for that input, you could have compensated for them up-front, which is what CBOF and CROF are for! You would set CBOF to 31-10=21, and CROF to 31+5=36. Now no color offsets are passed to the Color control; and if you now calibrate RDRV thru BCUT for 6500K etc., you have a calibration independent of the Color control, and changing it will not affect the picture's appearance one bit.


Whether you adjust the input offsets first is your choice, but if you adjust the drives and cutoffs first, which is my preference, you can then *forget about that adjustment.* You've got your perfect 6500K and grayscale. You just turn color down to zero, and proceed. *Now* you can adjust the inputs' nuisance offsets a *subordinate* task which it inherently is. Very clean and straightforward.


----------



## CrocHunter

What i don't get about you kentech is how you accuse glen of being wrong when he's an ISF calibrator










It's just funny, that's all.


I know your an engineer, but an ISF guy knows just as much as well, if not even more than you.


----------



## GlenC

Ken, you are getting lost in all of this and making you calibrations much more difficult than they need to be.



> Quote:
> If, on the other hand, you had previously discovered those nuisance offsets for that input, you could have compensated for them up-front, which is what CBOF and CROF are for! You would set CBOF to 31-10=21, and CROF to 31+5=36. Now no color offsets are passed to the Color control; *and if you now calibrate RDRV thru BCUT for 6500K etc.*, you have a calibration independent of the Color control, and changing it will not affect the picture's appearance one bit.



Totally wrong. Where do you get your reference to measure the needed offset?


Please think about this:

xDRV & xCUT only change in one place, the global Neutral color temp. It does affect Cool and Warm because it is the reference point for offsets.
xDOF & xCOF change the Cool and Warm color temp by offset from Neutral.
The input with the least amount of control over luminance and chroma is 480i, composite or S-Video.
Before any color temp calibration on any input, the user controls for Picture, Brightness, Color, Hue and Sharpness as well as edge enhancement and color decoder should be properly set.

Here is my color calibration procedure:

Connect to an input with 480i and test pattern, white window or white field. (lets say a test DVD with DVD player Video 1, set at 480i S-Video)
Verify that CBOF & CROF are both set at 31.
Adjust xDRV & xCUT, going back and forth between low IRE and High IRE windows until you have a uniform gray scale from 10 IRE to 100 IRE. (No plus green errors at any step)
Save settings.
Change DVD player to 480p. (DVD player connected to Video 5, Component)
Do item d. from above (and #2 if desired).
Display a 50 IRE white window and check the color temp.
Adjust CBOF & CROF to achieve 6500K. Move color slider to see that there is no color change.
Save settings. Recheck all user control settings (P, B, C & H)
Repeat 6 -9 with DVD set to 480i and 1080i (if available)
Now lets change to another input, say the ATSC input.
Input an ATSC 1080i signal test pattern.
Repeat steps 6 - 9 with the ATSC signals 480i, 480p and 720p.
Change to an ATSC 720p signal test pattern.
Repeat steps 6 - 9.

At this point, we have all of the RF, Composite and S-Video inputs set to 6500K with CBOF and CROF set at 31 (there are no separate offsets for these). We have also calibrated Video 5 with the DVD player for 480i, 480p and 1080i and the ATSC input for 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i to 6500K by adjusting CBOF and CROF for each of the seven configurations.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What i don't get about you kentech is how you accuse glen of being wrong when he's an ISF calibrator
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's just funny, that's all.
> 
> 
> I know your an engineer, but an ISF guy knows just as much as well, if not even more than you.



Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions. Wrong can mean it is not done a certain way or that it can't be done. From my experiences, Engineers, generally work in a single direction and because of time and money constraints. Having had to operate that way can tend to train one to see only one solution to a problem. I have not met Ken, and he has done a great job with this TV and helping us understand its capabilities. He says his method is better, I say mine works, who's right? That can only be determined by controlled testing and in the end they may both be wrong.or right or one or the other. The information provided here should be studied and thoroughly evaluated before any judgment calls are made. We are here to enhance our understanding, not prove anyone right or wrong. I just hope I can help lead anyone in the right direction or help avoid mistakes that can be costly.


Just because I am ISF certified, doesn't mean I know it all. I am in a constant state of learning. Intellectual discussions are one of the great features of forums, discounting the few that have nothing good to say about anything.


From Short Circuit, Number Five need input.input


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What i don't get about you kentech is how you accuse glen of being wrong when he's an ISF calibrator
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's just funny, that's all.
> 
> 
> I know your an engineer, but an ISF guy knows just as much as well, if not even more than you.



Croc-


I see you're just teasing here - that's cool.


I am very, very impressed with the back and forth between KenTech and GlenC. These guys have alot to offer us all. KenTech with his clear depth of knowledge of the SFP tube sets, and Sony service codes in gereral, and GlenC with his obviously extensive ISF knowledge and training.


What I appreciate most is that both of these guys have the best interests of the user/viewer at heart. I am saving all of this to review again and again as I grow in the knowledge of my Sony set.


KenTech & GlenC: Thanks for all the info you're offering. I see some fundamental differences in how each of you is approaching some of the discussed adjustments, and that gives me choices in my own efforts.


Cheers!


----------



## GlenC

Justsc, thanks


Ken,


Since I don't have a XBR here to play with:

Can you go to anyone of your inputs, zero the color slider, then go to CBOF and make up and down changes, the picture should go plus/minus blue. Does it?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ken, you are getting lost in all of this and making your calibrations much more difficult than they need to be.



They're quite easy for me, conceptually and in practice. I'm not bound by blind faith in ISF training, which has several specific purposes, not just the end result with the TV. You haven't made *any* logical counterargument for any of the points I've made. We will both achieve calibrated sets. But the error is exactly in the following statement:



> Quote:
> The input with the least amount of control over luminance and chroma is 480i, composite or S-Video.



Nope. Or maybe. But you can guarantee that *any* input has *NO* control over luminance and chroma by simply turning Color all the way off. Then use whatever input you like to set up the basic xDRV and xCUT for perfect 6500K and grayscale. This way anybody reading this with a DVD player and the DVE disk can set up white balance without worrying about which input has the least contamination. You have to rely on a specialized S-video pattern generator and *hope* there are no offsets in the equipment or input.


That's our difference in a nutshell. You have not logically pointed up any flaws with this, and I have verified this procedure with perfect results. Restating your method adds nothing new, as I completely understand it. If the S-video input has *zero* offset, you will achieve the correct settings of xDRV and xCUT you seek, no question. But if you turn down the Color, you will *guarantee* it whether S-video, or any other, input has been used. I've made my case and proved it in practice. I have no ISF training to defend nor sacred cows to protect, so I have little else to say on this matter. Other folks will have to chime in on this, if this hasn't become too arcane. The arguments have to be judged on their merits and logic, and I think they have been stated clearly by both of us.


----------



## ptchristensen

I'm trying out a lot of different menues as I'm trying to fix my remaining geometry problems on my 34XBR960.


Here is an interesting one: QM, WUSR and RUSR


When WUSR is activated by moving from 0 to 1, and a memory card is in the TV the following files are written to the memory card.


User Default File

User Current File

Service Default File

Service Current File


When RUSR is activated the values are read back to the NMW (Whatever that is)


Could someone with a "geometry virginal" XBR 960 please do the WUSR and post the 4 values. I might be able to get at better starting point for fixing the geometry.


Here is the "Service Default File" (I changed the extension .SD to .txt to prevent problems with security programs)


I couldn't find a program that can read the files

 

SONYDTVD.txt 0.0263671875k . file


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> I'm not bound by blind faith in ISF training, which has several specific purposes, not just the end result with the TV.



Can you prove this statement or back it up with facts, or is this just a statement without merit? I assume you have been through ISF Training to qualify yourself to make such a statement. You have no clue as to my approach and goal, but you can be sure that the ultimate goal on any of my calibrations is to achieve optimal results for that display, to the best of my abilities. Even if a 3 hour calibration takes me 6 hours, and they have (standard calibrations have fixed prices, not hourly).



> Quote:
> You haven't made *any* logical counterargument for any of the points I've made.



Are you not reading my posts or just don't want to consider the process.?


Here is a logical counterargument:

How can you possibly determine any type of required input offset without some starting reference point? By your method, you can only calibrate one input at one scan rate. I say this because you seem to think you adjust offset (CROF & CBOF) first, then adjust the color temp with xCUT & xDRV. If cut and drive are global, how will you be able to calibrate another input with your method? Read through my calibration steps above. If you think it is wrong, describe your method for calibrating the same number of inputs and scan rates.



> Quote:
> You have to rely on a specialized S-video pattern generator



I don't see what is so specialized about Avia or DVE and the S-Video output from any DVD player.



> Quote:
> and *hope* there are no offsets in the equipment or input.



This doesn't really matter, because you will have calibrated to that piece of equipment and the test DVDs are very close to a pure B&W signal. In theory, by my method, you could calibrate different inputs to different color temps, just by changing CROF & CBOF. Wait, this is why the offsets work this way, after the one initial calibration of Neutral Color Temp with drive and cut. Not before.

Additionally, if the offsets are in the input devices, then why are the only factory 31/31 offsets in 480i?


The reason I say to use the S-Video first is because the defaults in all of the 480i inputs for CROF & CBOF is 31. When properly calibrated, all of the other inputs and scan rates should be close. Additionally, almost everyone has a DVD player with S-Video. Not all have component and or DVI/HDMI.



> Quote:
> You have not logically pointed up any flaws with this,



The entire explanation of my procedure points out the flaw in your method. Don't get me wrong, you could get one input calibrated by your method, but it does not carry over to calibrating other inputs.



> Quote:
> and I have verified this procedure with perfect results.



Perfect, I think not, "acceptable to your eye only", yes, I would agree. For all we know you could have 9000K at 20 IRE and 7000K at 100 IRE. I have measured my method and have achieved results from three different inputs with two or three different scan rates. All were very uniform at 6500K +/- 50K in 10 IRE intervals. None of us can achieve perfect results no matter what methods we use. The TVs have more variances than that.


----------



## ADU

Glen & Ken,


Thanks for the replies on my experimental tandem/differentiation approach. I wish there'd been time to respond to more of them today, but I need some time to digest some more of this. Allotta good info/opinions here to consider. I'm gonna take Glen's suggestion re the photo grey card and LED though and see how that works. That sounds like the best way for now to check if my rather whacky experimental system is putting me anywhere near 6500k.


Also, if the CBOF and CROF offsets are already in the ballpark for most inputs, as Glen suggests, then changing DVI to 31 from the defaults (as I've done) probably would not be the best way for others to proceed if they're looking to ballpark the greyscales of multiple inputs by calibrating via Video 1, or one of the other analog inputs. Leaving CBOF and CROF at their defaults may be better at least as a starting point. It probably matters less on my TV though since DVI is the only input I use.


I'm really more concerned about the potential effect that CBOF and CROF may have on the slope of the red and blue drives/cutoffs for DVI. If these offsets only adjust the cutoff points, then that means they are probably altering the slope of the grey scale on each component relative to others which would not be a good thing for my tandem drive/cutoff approach. I assumed that neutralizing them to 7-31-31 would give me the best shot at acheiving a uniform slope on each component. But now I'm less sure. Perhaps the original defaults were closer. If there is a way to adjust the grey scales on my TV fairly accurately (and I sort of feel in my bones that there is) using the same values for both drive and cutoff, and perhaps also without any kind of white reference (which I know sounds a bit far-fatched), then I'd kind of like to figure it out, because it might simplify things alot. It looks like I'll need some kind of 6500k reference to verify this though. Maybe the photo card/LED will do the trick.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you not reading my posts or just don't want to consider the process.?



Not rocket science, Glen. Because I don't agree, you claim I don't understand. I do. And I don't agree.


> Quote:
> Here is a logical counterargument:
> 
> How can you possibly determine any type of required input offset without some starting reference point? By your method, you can only calibrate one input at one scan rate.



To the contrary, by turning the Color slider down to zero, you can use *any* input to adjust white balance and grayscale because you are guaranteeing that *NO errant color has been introduced up to that point*. The service-mode settings for WB/grayscale are global, not input-specific, and *they exist in only one place: the SBRT, xDRV, and xCUT settings.* Having gotten this right, you can now turn Color up again and use the *input-class-specific* settings of CBOF and CROF, plus the adjustments in 2170P-3/UBOF thru UHOF, to fix any offsets that exist at those inputs by whatever method. Clear and simple.


> Quote:
> The entire explanation of my procedure points out the flaw in your method.



Sorry, repetition ("Look, look, mine *is* better than yours") is not counterargument.


> Quote:
> Perfect, I think not, "acceptable to your eye only", yes, I would agree.



And for what other purpose is this entertainment device being adjusted? The fiction that 6500K *exactly* is all that is acceptable is sheer nonsense! Heaven help the poor chap whose set is not exactly 6500K, and the neigbors find out. Think of the ridicule and finger-pointing! If the white point on my set is 6341K and whites appear white, it *is* perfect. Such small deviations from the industry-standard do not affect the perception of colors to any significant degree -- the rather adaptive eye/brain combination sees to that, and the variations among real-world program sources swamp small deviations completely. In my business, I have calibrated numerous color monitors for graphic artists involved in color pre-press. *That* is a critical application. Watching CSI/Miami, the evening news, Gladiator? I think not! Perspective, folks, perspective.


Glen, if you want to discuss/defend the *business* of ISF calibration, start another thread. This thread is to help folks understand the effects of the myriad service-menu codes and how adventuresome folks might adjust them to improve their sets and fix problems. Those who simply want someone to come out and calibrate everything and don't particularly want to get their hands dirty or clutter their brain (don't start!) with niggling details, will look for a local ISF tech to do the job. I don't do my own brake jobs anymore, either. One trades $$ for trouble. ISF calibration, its training, the required equipment investment -- all consitute a *potentially profitable business with an up-front investment* whose practicing individuals charge dearly for their work. For the folks who need it, the results are likely fabulous! But it's a *business*, Glen, not a religion.


----------



## GlenC

ADU, there is no need for uniformity between drive and cut. Cut sets where black level is achieved and drive sets the white. If you reduce the cut settings, you are reducing the light output on the low end for a given Brightness setting. If you had to reduce BCUT & RCUT to get to 6500K at 20 IRE, the result would be a reduction in light output of red and blue and now you would need to adjust Brightness to compensate. Black is black and white is white and there is one optimal setting for Picture and Brightness (for any one viewing condition). If you decrease the overall light output with xCUT, Brightness usually needs to increase same with xDRV and Picture. IMO, it would make sense to set xCUT and xDRV to achieve the desired color temperature with normalized Brightness and Picture settings.



> Quote:
> Also, if the CBOF and CROF offsets are already in the ballpark for most inputs, as Glen suggests, then changing DVI to 31 from the defaults (as I've done) probably would not be the best way for others to proceed if they're looking to ballpark the greyscales of multiple inputs by calibrating via Video 1, or one of the other analog inputs. Leaving CBOF and CROF at their defaults may be better at least as a starting point. It probably matters less on my TV though since DVI is the only input I use.



This is true, however if you have changed the V7/DVI offsets to 31, I am assuming it was done in 1080i. If this is the case, then change the resolution to 480i and/or 480p and see what the colors look like. Since the default for 1080i is CROF=45 and CBOF=47 and 480p is CROF=42 and CBOF=41 calibrating 1080i at 31/31 should yield an error with the default in 480p the picture should be noticeably plus blue and red. As far as 480i, default CROF/CBOF=31 and again the picture should be noticeably plus blue and red. *I would appreciate your checking this and reporting back with your findings.*



> Quote:
> I'm really more concerned about the potential effect that CBOF and CROF may have on the slope of the red and blue drives/cutoffs for DVI. If these offsets only adjust the cutoff points, then that means they are probably altering the slope of the grey scale on each component relative to others



This has nothing to do with slope (I assume you mean the Gamma curve). These offsets will only affect the amount of blue and red in the white signal to get you back to your desired calibrated temperature individually on each input for each resolution.


This is a really cool feature in this Sony, there are not many TVs that allow color temperature calibration for each input and scan rate. My Mitsubishi 65813 has three (480i, 480p & 1080i) separate calibration settings for High and Low color temp (Mid is an internal average of the two).


----------



## ADU

Ken,


Maybe I'm just falling into Glen's evil trap







but I don't think he has much to gain personally or financially by championing ~6500k as your optimum target, and suggesting other ways of referencing this like photo cards/LEDs. I think we all know that Glen's in this as a business, and can interpret his remarks accordingly. It's helpful to hear different informed viewpoints though. And because the blacks on these TVs tend to get easily muddied by other issues, I think there is something to be said for getting as close to ~6500k as possible for the best shadow detail.


Re the grey scales issues currently on the table, I can see legitimate arguments on both sides of the color question. I think all Glen is really saying here is that the way the Sonys are configured out of the box, it may be easier to initially ballpark the grey scales for all inputs by performing the grey scale calibration with the Color on as opposed to off (with CROF and CBOF left at their defaults). Since he's calibrated more TV's than I have, I'm prepared to accept that on his word for the moment. And it's probably something that informed DIYers can try and judge for themselves.


Your approach may work equally as well though Ken, if you're already resigned to adjusting the CBOF and CROF offsets for every input you're using. Maybe I'm not completely grasping all the subtleties of the arguments you're both making, but so far that's really about the only difference I can see between your two approaches.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Having gotten this right, you can now turn Color up again and use the input-class-specific settings of CBOF and CROF, plus the adjustments in 2170P-3/UBOF thru UHOF, to fix any offsets that exist at those inputs by whatever method.



The first part of this I agree with, however if you're suggesting that you can tweak the _grey scales_ via UCOF and UHOF, then I disagree. IMO, those particular 2170P-3 parameters should generally only be used to adjust differences between the _color decoders_ on each input/signal.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If, on the other hand, you had previously discovered those nuisance offsets for that input, *you could have compensated for them up-front, which is what CBOF and CROF are for! You would set CBOF to 31-10=21, and CROF to 31+5=36. Now no color offsets are passed to the Color control; and if you now calibrate RDRV thru BCUT for 6500K etc., you have a calibration independent of the Color control*.
> 
> *The service-mode settings for WB/grayscale are global, not input-specific, and they exist in only one place: the SBRT, xDRV, and xCUT settings. Having gotten this right, you can now turn Color up again and use the input-class-specific settings of CBOF and CROF*, plus the adjustments in 2170P-3/UBOF thru UHOF, to fix any offsets that exist at those inputs by whatever method. Clear and simple.



First you say set CROF and CBOF then calibrate RDRV thru BCUT..then you say once you have RDRV thru BCUT set, you adjust CBOF and CROF while acknowledging they exist in only one place: the SBRT, xDRV, and xCUT settings. This is what has been confusing.


I haven't experimented with 2170P-3/UBOF thru UHOF, I am assuming they will offset or allow adjustment of/for various effects in the different modes, Vivid, Pro


As for ISF business, I have probably contributed too much here in detailed procedures that it could impact potential business.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And because the blacks on these TVs tend to get easily muddied by other issues, I think there is something to be said for getting as close to ~6500k as possible for the best shadow detail.



Don't get confused here, 6500K is only the color of white needed to properly reproduce film based media like movies. Color temp calibration will deal with the color of Black, but shadow detail is dependant on Brightness, Sharpness and other settings being properly set.


As far as 6500K, yes it is a desired industry target.

Can it be perfectly achieved from 10 IRE to 100 IRE? No.

Is getting as close as possible a calibration goal? Yes.

If I can't get to 6500K, my goal is to have no +Green error and being +Blue is better than +Red. This means that a calibration has no +Green and color temp ranges from about 6400K and up. I would rather see one go from 6400K to 7000K than 6100K to 6700K. Red and Green are much more visible than Blue.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First you say set CROF and CBOF then calibrate RDRV thru BCUT



No, no, no! Please point out where I might have said that! I say this: Turn down Color, calibrate WB and grayscale, *then* turn up Color and adjust CROF and CBOF. That's the only order that makes sense to me, since the starategy is to (1) adjust the *global* settings, then (2) adjust the *input-mode-specific* settings. Without having done (1), (2) makes no sense!


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> if you have changed the V7/DVI offsets to 31, I am assuming it was done in 1080i. If this is the case, then change the resolution to 480i and/or 480p and see what the colors look like. Since the default for 1080i is CROF=45 and CBOF=47 and 480p is CROF=42 and CBOF=41 calibrating 1080i at 31/31 should yield an error with the default in 480p the picture should be noticeably plus blue and red. As far as 480i, default CROF/CBOF=31 and again the picture should be noticeably plus blue and red. I would appreciate your checking this and reporting back with your findings.



The quick answer is yes, the color does seem to go a bit to hell on the other inputs/signals. Since I'm only using the DVI input though (@1080i/540p), it doesn't really matter to me.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Justsc, thanks
> 
> 
> Ken,
> 
> 
> Since I don't have a XBR here to play with:
> 
> Can you go to anyone of your inputs, zero the color slider, then go to CBOF and make up and down changes, the picture should go plus/minus blue. Does it?



No, not in the slightest. That is why, in my *schematic* model of how the color processing works, I say that the CROF and CBOF offset adjustments come *before* the Color control. If one cranks Color up to Max, CBOF and CROF adjustments are easily seen on-screen. Set Color to Min, and no effect can be noted.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No, no, no! Please point out where I might have said that! I say this: Turn down Color, calibrate WB and grayscale, *then* turn up Color and adjust CROF and CBOF. That's the only order that makes sense to me, since the starategy is to (1) adjust the *global* settings, then (2) adjust the *input-mode-specific* settings. Without having done (1), (2) makes no sense!



You said/implied that in Post #220, next-to-last paragraph.


Now, you have just described my method. Set global color temp then adjust each input/scan rate in use. The only exception is my starting with 480i because all of the 480i offsets are preset at 31/31. There shouldn't be any color changes in Black - White with color slider movement. If an input is driving R, G, or B differently than the one the global calibration is done on, setting the slider to max should help show the difference.


IMO, reviewing the factory defaults, it appears that their intent is to calibrate using 480i because the TV must decompress/split/process the signal to extract color from luminance, therefore all 480i RGB signals to the tube should be the same. When you input component/DVI/HDMI, the TV has no control over the input signal therefore the need for different offset settings to balance the color temp.


----------



## CrocHunter

I think this thread is starting to get out of hand.At first it was about helpful service menu codes, but now it's a bickering of i'm right and your wrong.


I appreciate all the contribution to this thread, with all the different ways we can tweak our sony sets, but some of the things you are revealing in your discoverys is a bit too much, if that's the right word for it.


I mean it's almost like you are redoing your whole entire set, like making a new tv yourself when in fact most of the factory settings are just fine.You don't want to screw with too much stuff or some stuff will affect other inputs and resolutions and make them out of wack.


An example is overscan, if you lower it even more you will start to see flaws in broadcast material, and you will see things with VHS tapes that should'nt be there in the corners.Not to mention it helps in hiding geometry errors, and if you lower it too much letterboxed material will be much smaller and the black bars above and below would get bigger while the image gets smaller.


Anyways though you have been both very helpfull in helping me with my tweaks.


And i appreciate your brave discoveries, in which some codes i just don't have the guts to do bymyself without the proper equipment to measure it right like color temp and greyscale.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You said/implied that in Post #220, next-to-last paragraph.



I get the implication, sorry. No, that's not a recommended *method.* It's just a way of thinking about it. Sorry if I stated it poorly.


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by *GlenC*
IMO, reviewing the factory defaults, it appears that their intent is to calibrate using 480i because the TV must decompress/split/process the signal to extract color from luminance, therefore all 480i RGB signals to the tube should be the same.
A really good point. My method assumes *no* input is perfect. But if Sony have guaranteed that the derivation of color from the combined "C" signal is near-perfect (quite possible), then calibrating from that input as your first choice would work well.
Quote:

When you input component/DVI/HDMI, the TV has no control over the input signal therefore the need for different offset settings to balance the color temp.
Yes, maybe. I'm still not sure I understand all the implications of the published block diagram from the service manual, which tries to show all of the signal paths. Those who think this is a mostly-digital set will be disappointed! It appears like the ATSC tuner, memory-stick, and HDMI inputs are immediately converted to analog-component video. All of their signal paths are identified as "YCbCr." Inputs 1, 2, and 3 ("YC") are routed to the "Main Color Decoder, CXA2103." Then they exit as YCbCr -- aka component video. Then that is converted to digital at IC3003 and passed to the DRC processor and on to the MID processor.


The CXA2171 chip switches among V5/V6 component inputs, HDMI, and ATSC, a different path from the CXA2103 chip, above. Then that is converted to digital at IC8601 and passed to the main MID processor as "VDO digital," bypassing DRC.


I made the initial choice that I couldn't necessarily understand all of the implications of this diagram, and I have found it useful to model the behavior of the TV in my head, refining it as I learn more. That's what engineers do on the way to designing something, so it is also a helpful skill when trying to understand a complex system that already exists.


The referenced block diagram is attached.

 

XS955|XBR960 Block Diagram.pdf 139.0234375k . file


----------



## GlenC

You can have the block diagrams. YCrCb is a different signal from YPrPb and I am not sure of the difference. I believe (not sure) the YCrCb is 480i component, while YPrPb is HD/Progressive component. DVI/HDMI can carry either RGB(HV) or YPrPb.


There are standards for component signals, however how accurate is the signal from a $69 Progressive DVD player and a $2000 Progressive DVD player. Not sure how close to the standard either will be, but I would think the more expensive unit would have better tolerances in it's signal path.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can have the block diagrams. YCrCb is a different signal from YPrPb and I am not sure of the difference. I believe (not sure) the YCrCb is 480i component, while YPrPb is HD/Progressive component. DVI/HDMI can carry either RGB(HV) or YPrPb.



Here is a good explanation. See "Component Video Description and History" about 1/3 of the way down. I shoulda read this before . . .

http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/compon.htm 


The article says that YCbCr is the digital equivalent of YPbPr. But the block diagram clearly shows *analog* component inputs V5/V6 feeding YCbCr to the next block. Phooey! Another error in the Sony documentation. Either they are using both terms randomly, to mean the same thing, or they have them turned around.


----------



## GlenC

OK, I think I have it, YCrCb, is a much more compressible version of RGB and is the format of the MPEG coding on DVDs. RGB, an uncompressed video signal carrying the three separate color info and very high bandwidth, best color signal. In a DVD player, YCrCb is sent through a D/A converter and is sent out as YPrPb, S-Video or composite. The TV takes any of these signals, puts it through an A/D converter to convert it to YCrCb and processes accordingly. Like sending 480i through a doubler or changing scan rate (720p to 1080i). Once the TV has finished all of it's needed processing the signal goes through a D/A converter to change the signal to RGB(HV) so it can be sent to the tube.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The TV takes any of these signals, puts it through an A/D converter to convert it to YCrCb and processes accordingly. Like sending 480i through a doubler or changing scan rate (720p to 1080i). Once the TV has finished all of it's needed processing the signal goes through a D/A converter to change the signal to RGB(HV) so it can be sent to the tube.



Yesterday I spent about an hour with the schematic diagrams of the set, and it doea, indeed, look like that is what is happening. The block diagram has numerous errors. (The component-input signals are correctly labeled YPrPb on the schematic, and YCrCb doesn't appear until after the A/D converter. Then things get fairly compex with labels and symbols I couldn't identify, so I gave up.)


It's important to know that there are two main video pathways, one with DRC and a separate one that bypasses it. Well, important for techies, anyway.


----------



## ADU

480p and 1080i could possibly bypass the DRC since they don't require conversion to another scanrate for display. They're probably still converted to digital for processing by the MID circuits though.


> Quote:
> The TV takes any of these signals, puts it through an A/D converter to convert it to YCrCb and processes accordingly. Like sending 480i through a doubler or changing scan rate (720p to 1080i). Once the TV has finished all of it’s needed processing the signal goes through a D/A converter to change the signal to RGB(HV) so it can be sent to the tube.



FWIW, this is the way it seemed to work on the XBR800's as well, for DVI anyway. DVI appeared to be initially converted to an analog signal and then seemed to follow pretty much the same paths as the Component signals. There was a way of rerouting 33.75khz-540p/1080i signals (from both the component and DVI inputs) past later digital processing prior to reaching the tube on some TVs though. And this rerouting of 1080i fixed the "scrolling bar" problem on various TVs, and also eliminated interlacing on 540p signals (which is what I use via DVI on my own 34XBR800). ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=293741 )


I think Sony improved signal integrity on models after the XBR800s though, to better accomodate the SFP tubes. So I'd be less concerned about PQ-loss due to internal processing on the XBR960s.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think there is something to be said for getting as close to ~6500k as possible for the best shadow detail.



I don't think you meant this. The former is white balance, the second is grayscale calibration independent of white balance. You could, for example, have a perfectly linear grayscale calibrated for 5400K.


> Quote:
> I can see legitimate arguments on both sides of the color question. I think all Glen is really saying here is that the way the Sonys are configured out of the box, it may be easier to initially ballpark the grey scales for all inputs by performing the grey scale calibration with the Color on as opposed to off. Since he's calibrated more TV's than I have, I'm prepared to accept that on his word for the moment. And it's probably something that informed DIYers can try and judge for themselves.



I think you have stated the issue pretty well. Glen also has a variety of TVs to deal with, and, accepting the inherent asumption in his method, it will succeed.


> Quote:
> Your approach may work equally as well though Ken, if you're already resigned to adjusting the CBOF and CROF offsets for every input you're using.



This is where our methods converge. We *both* have to calibrate CBOF and CROF for the inputs we want calibrated, by whatever means.


> Quote:
> however if you're suggesting that you can tweak the _grey scales_ via UCOF and UHOF, then I disagree.



No, not grayscale color-neutrality. Just black level (which I included with the term "offsets") with UBOF, and then color (amount) and hue differences between video source devices with UCOF and UHOF.


> Quote:
> IMO, those particular 2170P-3 parameters should generally only be used to adjust differences between the _color decoders_ on each input/signal.



Or let's just say the _color_ and black level on each input signal, because there is nowhere else to compensate for, say, a permanently-connected VCR with a noticeable hue error, as I own, or for a DVD player whose black level doesn't agree with anything else (mine, too). I would use those settings as compensation so I don't have to fiddle with the remote each time I switch from broadcast to a VCR recording of the same thing. That said, you can make the choice to have UBOF-UHOF set just for imbalances inherent to the TV, and leave further tweaking to the user menu. What else could you do if you were going to switch video sources around every now and then? But in my case, there is no way for me to separate the TV from the DVD input in practice, so I adjust for my DVD player as-connected. When I switch to it, it's right.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't think you meant this. The former is white balance, the second is grayscale calibration independent of white balance. You could, for example, have a perfectly linear grayscale calibrated for 5400K.



I don't think you meant this either. White balance and gray-scale are one-in-the-same. It doesn't matter what temperature you are using. If you choose 6500K, 5400K, 9300K or whatever you want for white, the goal is a uniform gray-scale at that temperature. With CRT, we are fortunate that cuts and drives are available to adjust both ends of the scale for a uniform gray-scale. With LCD and DLP, you only have R, G & B drive, calibrate at 50 IRE and hope fore the best uniformity and tweak for the best overall results.


Yes, I believe we are in agreement on the color calibration process. My method was designed for the display having any number of inputs in use or multiple scan-rates in use on one input. Some have all of their equipment connected through one input via an A/V receiver. Some HD STB (cable/DSS) can have numerous output configurations:
All 480i/p
All 720p
All 1080i
Native 480i/p, 720p & 1080i
Native 480i/p, 720p
Native 480i/p, 1080i

These configurations generate a need for multiple input/scan-rate calibrations.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> White balance and gray-scale are one-in-the-same. It doesn't matter what temperature you are using. If you choose 6500K, 5400K, 9300K or whatever you want for white, the goal is a uniform gray-scale at that temperature.



"White balance" on my digital still and video cameras means *color-temperature* adjustment, and that's how I used the term. It also has the same meaning in Photoshop and its Camera Raw plug, where you use the White Balance slider to "balance" your image to match the color temperature of the picture as shot.


But let me use your terms: Color-temp (white) setting and grayscale linearity (uniformity) are independent, as you have said in your last sentence above. You can set any CT for any grayscale and adjust grayscale uniformity for any CT. That means the parameters of white balance and grayscale uniformity are independent concepts in principle. We agree; this is semantics! (Of course, the *adjustments* we're stuck with for setting WB and grayscale interact -- but that's just an implementation, not a principle.)


ADU's thinking that he has to have 6500K before he has adequate shadow detail confuses the two concepts of the *color* of the white point and the *level* of the darkest grays. To be sure, I am including the black level at the bottom of the gray scale as part of its setup, and that is the one item that determines adequate shadow detail. So maybe the difficulty is there. Again, the terminology . . .


----------



## absolute1973

Hey guys....this tread has been very helpful, but I have a little problem. I usually try and search on here before I go ahead and post an issue that has been covered already. My 32hs510 set is looking great thanks to this thread, except for one issue...When I switch to my RF input which has an old jerrold cable box connected to it, I get a good picture for about 3 seconds and then i see this auto focusing and it then get a lil blurred..very noticeable. I've look hard and long for a setting in the service menu for this, but no luck...does anyone know what the setting or problem coul be? Only happens with RF, and I've tried switching to all DRC modes.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *absolute1973* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I switch to my RF input which has an old jerrold cable box connected to it, I get a good picture for about 3 seconds and then i see this auto focusing and it then get a lil blurred..very noticeable. I've look hard and long for a setting in the service menu for this, but no luck...does anyone know what the setting or problem coul be? Only happens with RF, and I've tried switching to all DRC modes.



I have no experience with any kind of problem like this. I guess I need to know more by what you mean by "blurred." Does it look like diagonal lines get very jaggy? Like the number of vertical lines is cut in half? (Horizontal detail stays about the same.) Or is horizontal detail affected, too? A soft & mushy blur, like a camera blur? Are the TV's scan lines getting blurred at all, or just the image?


The "character" of this blur might indicate the cause. Or digital before-and-after photos.


Question: What is the purpose of this Jerrold box? Can't you feed the cable directly? Or is this a digital-cable converter? (You said "old," so I wasn't thinking digital-caable.)


----------



## GlenC

I should have prefaced my comment on White Balance and Gray-scale with as it pertains to video display calibration color temp. My goal, when setting White Balance/Gray-scale is to achieve, as close as possible, the same color temperature at low IRE and High IRE levels. The luminance levels of the different steps form 0 IRE to 100 IRE, can be affected by many things. Brightness can severely affect the low IRE Gray scale luminance. If set too low you can effectively have 0-30 IRE the lumen level, black. With contrast, clipping can occur. I have seen TVs that will clip clear down to 60 IRE (60-100 IRE looks the same, white). Additionally, with Picture/Contrast, you can have some color shift. Some CRTs when driven too hard can look slightly yellow.


Yes, there are many different meanings to terms used here, and I am assuming we are talking about calibration a video display to watch movies. When it comes to calibrating a TV, I think of Color Temperature, White Balance, Gray-scale or Gray-scale tracking all the same thing. Getting this properly set includes properly setting Contrast, Brightness, Color, Tint, Sharpness and the RGB settings necessary (including offsets) to achieve the desired temperature (currently the industry standard is 6500K). Additionally, the gamma curve should to be reviewed to check for adjustments needed to optimize the Gamma. Even if the Gamma can't be set to the desired setting, there shouldn't be any sudden changes in the curve.


----------



## billmail1

This is a great thread and I'm learning quite a bit but, technically speaking, I got lost about 4 pages back. I have one (hopefully) simple problem that I would like to correct. Blacks in my 960 have a green tint. Glenn, Ken and ADU, you guys definitely know what you are talking about and I would really appreciate it if you could tell me which SM adjustments need to be changed to get rid of the green tint. I'm familiar with the SM as I was able to correct many of my initial geometry problems using the knowledge gained in this thread. My wife never noticed the geometry issues but she really sees the green tint in the blacks. If I know which registers to adjust, I can "play" with the numbers to suit my visual taste but I am really confused about the effects of BCUT,RCUT, GCUT, etc. I don't want to make things worse so any help would really be appreciated.


Thanks!!


----------



## jasperm

Hi All-


Following the great guidance in this thread, I have made some initially refinements in service mode in my HS420 - so far, so good.


A few problems and a few questions came up:


1) While I was working, I inadvertently hit a couple of the nono keys - each time, I immediately cycled the power off and started over, and I think nothing bad happened. A couple times it happened while trying to write a change - after hitting Mute, I inadvertently hit the 9 key instead of the Enter (adjacent). Am I safe in assuming this single key press would do no damage? Nothing apparent happened?


Similarly, at one point, when trying to change a code, I missed the 4 key and either hit the 7 or the Jump button on my remote. This time, the text "INI -" flashed in the upper right. Again, I turned off power immediately, and nothing seemed to have been messed up - but I was a bit worried about the meaning of that text.


One other problem - at various times, while working in SM with input from the HD DVR/cable box (comcast), the image would change to show a vertically split screen with two copies of the image side by side - sort of a badly synched split screen. At first, I got very concerned about this, because powering the tv off didn't fix it, but then I found that powering off the cable box seemed to restore normal cable input. But it seemed very strange - any insight into this? Seems to imply that the SM activity somehow was communicated to the cable box in that it altered what was happening there - is that right?


2) My question - I successfully tweaked things like black levels - both SBRT and some of the input specific offsets, as well as Gamma and VM, and started trying to work on color temp. However, I didn't see any codes for setting contrast/white level. Should contrast be set only in user slides for each picture mode, or are there also service codes for this that I somehow missed?


Also - can you guys point me to any source that would be helpful in figuring out which targets in the AVIA disk to use for various kinds of adjustments and how to do so? Some are obvious, but others much less so.


Thanks again!

Michael


----------



## CrocHunter

For contrast i'd just use the user menu, it's more than adequete.


I'd leave color temp alone since you can't do this by eye, you need the appropriate equipment to measure it correctly.I think it's called a color analyzer and ISF guys usually carry these.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jasperm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) While I was working, I inadvertently hit a couple of the nono keys - each time, I immediately cycled the power off and started over, and I think nothing bad happened. A couple times it happened while trying to write a change - after hitting Mute, I inadvertently hit the 9 key instead of the Enter (adjacent). Am I safe in assuming this single key press would do no damage? Nothing apparent happened?
> 
> 
> Similarly, at one point, when trying to change a code, I missed the 4 key and either hit the 7 or the Jump button on my remote. This time, the text "INI -" flashed in the upper right. Again, I turned off power immediately, and nothing seemed to have been messed up - but I was a bit worried about the meaning of that text.
> 
> 
> One other problem - at various times, while working in SM with input from the HD DVR/cable box (comcast), the image would change to show a vertically split screen with two copies of the image side by side - sort of a badly synched split screen. At first, I got very concerned about this, because powering the tv off didn't fix it, but then I found that powering off the cable box seemed to restore normal cable input. But it seemed very strange - any insight into this? Seems to imply that the SM activity somehow was communicated to the cable box in that it altered what was happening there - is that right?
> 
> 
> Michael



I can comment on a couple of your questions:


1) Do NOT, and I mean NOT push the 7 or 9 or jump or any combination. I did and I lost all settings including geometry and convergence. It takes weeks of tweaking to get that back. Other advice in SM: Do not change or save without writing down the original settings. Default settings - Do not move between menues without saving, you will loose changes, and do not change input i.e. from 1080i to 480i without saving.


The problem you have with double image is from your cablebox. It also happens when you switch between inputs with different format. Just move up a channel and back again and the input is back to normal.


----------



## jasperm

Hi again - so given that I *did* inadvertently hit 9 once and either 7 or jump another time- but then immediately cycled power, is it safe to say that I would know immediately had I screwed something up? When you do hit one of those buttons, are the changes cleared if you don't write them, or are you immediately screwed no matter what you do next?


I watched some programs from cable after, and things seemed pretty normal - but I have this fear that something bad happened that I just haven't noticed yet.


From what you described, I assume it would be pretty clear if I had lost geometry or convergence settings, yes?


Also - do you know what that INI - message was?


Thanks,

Michael


----------



## jasperm

Hi - To follow up on my earlier question more clearly, I think what I'm wondering about is whether there is a service mode setting for contrast/white level that is analogous the UBOF settings - that is, can you tweak contrast differently for different inputs? For instance, as Kentech has previously noted, some of the HD broadcast (like LOST) is very dark, and seems to consistently need a higher setting. Is there an alternative to changining the contrast setting in the user menu each time you change inputs?


Thanks,

Michael


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jasperm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi again - so given that I *did* inadvertently hit 9 once and either 7 or jump another time- but then immediately cycled power, is it safe to say that I would know immediately had I screwed something up? When you do hit one of those buttons, are the changes cleared if you don't write them, or are you immediately screwed no matter what you do next?



4-1.5. RESETTING THE DATA

CAUTION: Be careful when using the remote! It will clear and reinitialize

ALL NVM data including defl ection adjustment data if not

reset properly as follows:


4-1.6. RESETTING THE MID NVM DATA

1. Enter into Service Mode.

2. Press 7 then JUMP , and then press ENTER on the remote.


4-1.7. RESETTING THE SYSTEM NVM DATA

1. Enter into Service Mode.

(This resets DEFL adjust and video white balance.)

2. Press 7 then 9 , and then press ENTER on the remote.


This it what the Service Manual says - and yes if you lost all your settings it starts up in the default screen asking you to select your language, tilt and vertival correction. And the image is bent inwards from all corners.


Remember the default settings you might read from the service manual or from one of the spreadsheets in this forum, are NOT your defaults. All sets are color and geometry calibrated before leaving the factory. So you have to write down your actual settings before starting.


----------



## jasperm

Hi -


Sorry for the rash of questions to this thread - been re-reading previous posts, and new questions come to my head.


I'm having some difficulty understanding the difference between correcting color push vs setting color temp/white balance. I understand (I think) that red push means increasing the "drive" to the red gun and we want to get rid of that to get more even color balance - but doesn't this also interact with the color temp settings? Drive and Cut?


Are these two calibrations affecting totally independent aspects of how the image is produced? Or alternatively, if I change the color temp via the approach outlined early in the thread, wouldn't that alter "push"? Or more importantly, wouldn't correcting push alter color temp?


There's a certain irony in my posting these questions, as my very first job out of college as an EE many moons ago was working for Eastman Kodak, where I did a bit of work on circuits related to control of CRTs in photofinishing equipment. So theoretically, I ought to understand this very well ! Alas, that part of my brain is more or less inaccessible these days....


Thanks!

Michael


----------



## TwinCityTVHound

I'm now about 3+ weeks into the KD-36XS955 world, and I'm loving it.


Used the user settings to adjust get the set closer to ideal than it was out of the box (using AVIA and the HDNet test pattern). One thing that's still off is overscan. Here's my question:


The picture now is evenly spread across the screen, and up and down. But by adjusting overscan, I will alter the proportions, right?


In other words, since I have more vertical overscan than horizontal, I'm going to end up with the people all squashed and funny looking. Or am I missing something here?


Any help in understanding this is appreciated...


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 4-1.5. RESETTING THE DATA
> 
> CAUTION: Be careful when using the remote! It will clear and reinitialize
> 
> ALL NVM data including defl ection adjustment data if not
> 
> reset properly as follows:
> 
> 
> 4-1.6. RESETTING THE MID NVM DATA
> 
> 1. Enter into Service Mode.
> 
> 2. Press 7 then JUMP , and then press ENTER on the remote.
> 
> 
> 4-1.7. RESETTING THE SYSTEM NVM DATA
> 
> 1. Enter into Service Mode.
> 
> (This resets DEFL adjust and video white balance.)
> 
> 2. Press 7 then 9 , and then press ENTER on the remote.
> 
> 
> This it what the Service Manual says - and yes if you lost all your settings it starts up in the default screen asking you to select your language, tilt and vertival correction. And the image is bent inwards from all corners.
> 
> 
> Remember the default settings you might read from the service manual or from one of the spreadsheets in this forum, are NOT your defaults. All sets are color and geometry calibrated before leaving the factory. So you have to write down your actual settings before starting.



Whoa there!! I wouldn't advise using the reset functions in the SM, particularly without guidance from Sony. If you use these, you may have ALOT of work to do to reconstruct your settings and get a decent picture back (which I think is ptchristensen's point above).


AFAIK, these procedures DO NOT restore the SM to the way it was when you bought it. They will actually ERASE important factory adjustments in TV that will be a ***** to reapply yourself!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jasperm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm having some difficulty understanding the difference between correcting color push vs setting color temp/white balance. I understand (I think) that red push means increasing the "drive" to the red gun and we want to get rid of that to get more even color balance - but doesn't this also interact with the color temp settings? Drive and Cut?



These concepts are easy to confuse. No, red "push" is not related to white balance at all. (You likely already understand the first part of the explanation, but I'll state it anyway for others' benefit.)


Setting a perfect white balance and grayscale can be accomplished in the *absence* of any color at all. Just as with TVs of 20-40 years ago, the xCUT controls determine when the screen starts to glow as the video-signal voltage increases from its minimum, on its way from black to white. Ideally, all of the color guns start to glow at the same time, and you get neutral dark gray. But this isn't how CRTs generally behave, and it is tuned by using different settings of R-, G-, and BCUT.


As the video signal reaches the value for "white," ideally all three color guns contribute the right amounts to produce a pure white, which is defined in the video-production world as 6500K -- roughly the color of front-lighted white clouds at mid-day. Whereas the xCUT controls determine at what point the color guns *begin* illuminating the screen, the xDRV controls determine how much "drive" each gun gets as the video goes from "black" to white. You would adjust R-, G-, and BDRV to get that perfect white, using a known white pattern or a high-contrast TV picture with color turned all the way down.


The xCUT and xDRV adjustments interact. (To an engineer they are classic offset-and-gain adjustments.) A 5-point change in RCUT makes a big change in color of dark gray, but very little change in the color of white because those 5 points are now only a small percentage of the total white. Likewise, the xDRV controls slightly affect the color of dark gray. Obviously one goes back and forth between the two control groups until everything looks fine. And generally, if you get the darkest grays and white right, the grays in the middle are fine, too.


Now that you have a perfectly-calibrated grayscale and white point, we introduce color. But here's where "push" comes in: It is the *favoring* of certain colors by the process that extracts the color from the TV signal, whatever it is. Imagine a picture of three kids with red, blue, and green tee-shirts of equal intensity in the real world, standing on a gray concrete driveway. Some TVs will show the red shirt as much more intense than the others, as with all other reds in the picture. (White and grays, by the way, and that driveway are still perfectly neutral.) This is "red push" -- a *favoring* of red in the color-decoding process. Whatever the historical arguments for this regarding NTSC broadcast deficiencies, color push is now considered a no-no, and *accurate* color decoding is preferred. (Matches reality, no?)


Sony's late-model computer-driven TVs have exquisite controls for all of this in their service-mode codes: Grayscale and white can be finely tuned (basic controls: xCUT and xDRV), and color-push can be reduced to virtually zero with 2170P-4/RYR thru GYB plus a good test pattern from, say, the DVE DVD. Plus, the TV will store two different sets of values for RYR-GYB, for the "Default" and "Monitor" user-menu choices.



> Quote:
> Are these two calibrations affecting totally independent aspects of how the image is produced?



Different aspects of how the video is processed by the TV and then displayed, yes.


> Quote:
> Or alternatively, if I change the color temp via the approach outlined early in the thread, wouldn't that alter "push"? Or more importantly, wouldn't correcting push alter color temp?



Nope, they're independent.


> Quote:
> . . . working for Eastman Kodak, where I did a bit of work on circuits related to control of CRTs in photofinishing equipment. So theoretically, I ought to understand this very well.



If you think of TV color-push as analogous to a specific color film's "personality," you may come close. When you worked with color CRTs for photofinishing, color push would have been an unacceptable defect, I would think, as it is with the color-prepress monitors I have set up. The "push" is created by the TV for an "esthetic" purpose.


Unfortunately, TV manufacturers keep throwing these color "improvements" at us, and we have to keep getting rid of them. Lucky it is that, with these Sony sets, it's a relative breeze. With some older sets, there is no way to alter the color decoding.


My experience, and that of several other posters here, has been that the following settings generally kill all color push for the XBR960 and recent XS955 CRT TVs:


2170P-4 / RYR-RYB-GYR-GYB = 13-15-5-3. (Then WRITE the settings.)


But grayscale and color depend heavily on your particular CRT and its characteristics.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jasperm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> some of the HD broadcast (like LOST) is very dark, and seems to consistently need a higher setting. Is there an alternative to changining the contrast setting in the user menu each time you change inputs?



When I watch Lost, CSI/Miami, or any other dark HD program, my choice has been to invoke a lower *gamma* that raises the midtone brightness while leaving black and white alone. White is still dazzling, but the blacks now have increased detail, and the mid-tones appear more natural/realistic.


There is no instant built-in control for this in the user menu. On my TV, I have set up the Pro and Movie modes to be *exactly* the same. (See my articles #04 and 05, posts #5 and 6, in this thread.) Except that (1) I have set GAMM = 1 in Movie mode and (2) set GAMR, GAMG, and GAMB each to 3 and GAMS to 0. Now when I switch from Pro (GAMM = 0 with all GAMx at 0) to Movie mode, the gamma is reduced from about 2.45 to 2.2, and that seems much more pleasing for a lot of HD material. But if the picture seems a bit flat for some broadcasts, I make sure it's in Pro mode with its higher gamma. Point is: Now it's *my* choice!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TwinCityTVHound* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> by adjusting overscan, I will alter the proportions, right? In other words, since I have more vertical overscan than horizontal, I'm going to end up with the people all squashed and funny looking. Or am I missing something here?



No, you aren't. You can mess up proportions by adjusting either vertical or horizontal overscan independently. If you use a test pattern, however, that has circular patterns in it, there's little chance of that: You'll see it immediately in the circle. You can even measure the circle to make sure you're close.


I knew something was funny with my set out of the box when the round PBS logo started looking squat in HD. Easy to fix. Just keep the circles circular, and adjust for minimum overscan that hides the defects at the raster's edges. I've ended up at about 4% for 4:3 full-screen material.


Then you want to adjust those blanking "shutters" that are supposed keep the electron beam from striking the sides of the tube: 2170D-3/R-, L-, T-, and BBLK. Procedure: reduce shutters so you can see the true, messy edge of the raster, and adjust the overscan for a clean display, as above. Then increase the shutters so you can just see them, then retract them a bit so they're not visible.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jasperm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> given that I *did* inadvertently hit 9 once and either 7 or jump another time- but then immediately cycled power, is it safe to say that I would know immediately had I screwed something up?



Very likely. Recycling power restores previous settings because they are re-read from memory at power-up. Replugging the power cord as well guarantees it. (Yes, there may be a couple of settings -- I know of one in AUDIO -- that survive the Power button, but not unplugging the set.)


> Quote:
> When you do hit one of those buttons, are the changes cleared if you don't write them, or are you immediately screwed no matter what you do next?



No, they're cleared. In fact, if you do nothing for a few seconds after making a goof, the screen will indicate "SERVICE" again, and you are again NOT in WRITE or INI- mode. Note that the most disastrous mistakes take more than two keystrokes (in that few-seconds period), but thet WRITE takes only two.


However -- if you have made some experimental choices in a code or several that are global settings, and you have gone away from them and become distracted, those settings might be written inadvertently when you do your next intended WRITE. If you are ever in doubt, recycle power, going back into service mode, which guarantees you are starting over "safe." I can't tell you how many times I have done this. I tinker and tinker, then have some kind of epiphany about a certain setting and want to WRITE it. I have learned to stop, make a note of what I want to do, then recycle power, go back to those settings, change them, *then* WRITE. Better safe . . .


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billmail1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Blacks in my 960 have a green tint. Glenn, Ken and ADU, you guys definitely know what you are talking about and I would really appreciate it if you could tell me which SM adjustments need to be changed to get rid of the green tint.



Let's assume it is not the program material. (PBS-HD material frequently has green/yellow-tinted blacks. Drives me nuts! I have complained.) You can see it across different inputs, right, and when the Color slider is all the way down?


The settings that most affect "black" and dark grays are the xCUT codes, but they contribute a little to the color of white, as well. You can try decreasing 2170P-1/GCUT until dark grays match whites in color. Sometimes it involves yellow, too, and raising BCUT a bit may help. Note that the average xCUT settings affect black level, and you may need to readjust SBRT a little to compensate. Try to keep at least one of the xCUT settings close to its previous value. *WRITE DOWN* your changes before and as you make them!


The goal, as you adjust these things without a color-temperature meter, is (1) to get the color of dark, medium, and light gray to match each other and the color of white; and to *simultaneously* (2) get white to look really *white.* Not pinkish, bluish, reddish, etc. If you do this with Color turned down to zero in a fairly dark, neutrally-lighted room, and you avoid *staring* at the TV, you can come close to something quite pleasing, as your eye compensates for a lot. But the eye is much less forgiving of grayscale nonlinearities. Get that grayscale nice and even: No warm whites plus greenish or bluish shadows!


However, my experience with dark-room, eye-based calibrations are that they turn out a little cool in white balance. As I have already written, front-lighted puffy-white clouds at mid-day are a nice reality-check, usually a little warmer than the "ideal" 6500K temperature, but very good. Most important, they illustrate an absence of green or pink contamiation or excessive blue.


----------



## billmail1

Ken,


Thanks for the information. I can tolerate a small amount of blue in the picture (it seems to give it a little more "punch") but the green is really annoying. I have switched to many different HD stations and most have the tint. I reduced the color level to 0 in the User Menu and was able to detect the green tint in the B&W picture. I'll try adjusting the 2170P-1/GCUT tonight and see what happens.


Thanks again!!


----------



## ADU

I've been poking around trying to find information on LEDs and other light sources that could be used as a D65 white reference, and haven't had too much luck so far. It looks like white LEDs come in several different temps, ranging anywhere from 4500k to 8000k And that they may have some noticeable variation in temperature from hot spot to penumbra, though you can probably find some close to 6500k if you search around a bit. The couple of white key chain LEDs I looked at appeared to be more in the Cool White 8000K range (ie a bit too blueish).


If you don't have some midday clouds handy, then perhaps the ~6500k bulbs some folks use for backlighting might be another option:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=457131 


You'd probably also a need a very neutral white surface to shine them on (like perhaps the photocards Glen mentioned). A good art/paint/paper/photographic supply shop might help with this. If anyone has other ideas for affordable D65 light sources/white references though, please chime in. My search continues...


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've been poking around trying to find information on LEDs and other light sources that could be used as a D65 white reference, and haven't had too much luck so far.



Neither have I. One of the problems of LEDs, as I recall from my electronics experience, is that their light output is a bit temperature-sensitive. If the R, G, and B LEDs differ in this regard, then the temp of the light changes as well. Maybe this is ameliorated by using a constant-current source for energizing each LED. Of course, then you would have to make *that* insensitive to temperature, or maybe even compensate for the LED's characteristics. You would have to integrate the light from the three LEDs.


Another choice would be to combine a theater gel with a white LED. There are some very subtle colors available from, say, Roscolux, and they offer a nice color-swatch book for free. The light pattern of most white LEDs I've seen have a center that differs in color from the rest of the light output. It, too, would have to be integrated (diffused) somehow.

http://www.rosco.com/us/filters/roscolux.asp 


I keep thinking: Maybe the best thing would be to buy/scrounge a cheap TV, make it produce a solid, decently-bright raster, then calibrate it. It would help to have some *area* of standard to compare white with, and that might do the trick. You'd have to warm it up a bit first, but who cares?


My question then becomes: Do I have a friend or relative with a junker TV they'll part with? How about yard sales?


----------



## ADU

After doing a bit more poking around it seems as if 6500K (or so-called "full-spectrum" or "daylight") bulbs aren't that difficult to find. The key though seems to be finding them in a convenient size/wattage, and with a high enough CRI for our purposes (namely CRT calibration). Here's a nice succinct explanation of CRI btw from Keohi.com 


> Quote:
> The lamp should be rated at 6500 Degrees Kelvin with as high a C.R.I. rating as possible. (Color Rendering Index refers to how well a light source will "render" an object familiar. The rating is scaled from 0 to 100 with outside "daylight" being 100) The lamp used should have a rating of at least 90 CRI.



Keohi also mentions a couple other possible places to look for such bulbs. 6500k lights seem to be popular with aquarium and terrarium buffs as well, so pet & plant supply shops, in addition to home & lighting and specialty bulb shops, might be another place to try.


----------



## GlenC

Ken, you have been busy with responses todaya lot of good information.


As far as 6500K lights, if you can get close, you will probably do OK. This is just an option to get close. Just watch out for light bouncing off the walls. I did a calibration on a Sony LCD RP and the room had a creamy yellow on the walls. When the sun got in, the color analyzer jumped minus blue. It made calibration difficult.


----------



## ADU

Understood, Glen.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think there is something to be said for getting as close to ~6500k as possible for the best shadow detail.



This is pretty much exactly what I meant to say btw. What I mean/meant by this is simply that the closer the greys (and blacks) are on your TV to 6500K (or to be more precise, D65), the better the color differentiation generally should be in darker areas of the image, making details in the "shadows" easier to discern.


If you asked me why that's the case, then I'd probably be gettin a bit out of my depth, but I would take a stab and say that it may be because D65 is the color temperature/space the video content was designed for, and it may also be the native color temperature/space on the TV.


I may be wrong about this, but I suspect that arbitrarily adjusting the TV to other color temperatures would not give you the same result, and be sort of like looking at shadows through a colored/muddied haze (as billmail1's post sort of indicates). YMMV though.


Once the greyscale is adjusted to ~D65, then using backlighting or ambient light of approximately the same temperature may also help to improve the discernment of the shadow detail as well. Most 6500K bulbs are fluorescent though, and the flicker on fluorescent lights tends to give me a headache. (Dimmers have the same effect on me.) And I'm not sure if "flicker-free" fluorescents are totally free of flicker either.


----------



## GlenC

The one key here is the color of white/gray/black is the foundation for all colors. When calibrated, R, G & B guns are set with their minimum and maximum.


A low IRE Red field would have a signal on R and none on G & B. If the black color temperature is off, at low IRE, say a little too blue, then there would also be a little additional blue in the Red, diminishing as IRE increases. Same with Magenta, there would still be too much blue until blue DRV takes over.


On the higher IRE side, if the DRV is set a little too blue, the RGB primaries would be close in color, but any color with blue in it would have just a little too much blue.


I hope this makes sense on how the calibration affects the generation of other colors. You can still have an accurate color decoder setting and an error in the color being displayed. Point being, you can calibrate to 9300K with an accurate decoder setting and Magenta will not be NTSC magenta.


----------



## loadams

Gents, would GREATLY appreciate your imput on this procedure, tell me what I am missing.


I've decided to re-visit my grayscale settings and took a more traditional approach.


1) Put 0-100 ire ramp.

Set color and brightness to 0.

Reduce all CUTS to 0.

Reduce RDRV & BDRV to 0.

GRDV left untouched.

Set RGBS-6 (yellow) and increase RDRV until yellow. Noting where "orange"

diminishes and "lime" begins, finding a value in between.

RGBS-7, increase BDRV until high ire's look gray, white.

Record values, not writing them yet.


2) Return brightness to normal.

Return GCUT to original value.

Reduce contrast to 0.

Reduce all DRV's to 0.

Reduce RCUT & BCUT to 0.

Again, set RGBS-6 and increase RCUT to achieve yellow as described above in

step 1.

RGBS-7, increase BCUT to achieve gray. (This is for me difficult to judge)


3) Return contrast to normal.

Increase DRV parameters as recorded in step 1.

Check contrast and brightness with pluge.

Return color to normal.

Write.


Now, in my mind's eye, I have set 100 ire - 50 ire neutral, using the DRV's with no influence from the CUTS. And also, set 0-50 to neutral using the CUTS with no influence from the DRV's.


If it's a "twiddling" experiment for a rainy day, please try it. And I as I said earlier, I would greatly appreciate your imput on this procedure.


Forgive me if I'm vague, I've been riding in a car for the past 8 hours.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Gents, would GREATLY appreciate your imput on this procedure, tell me what I am missing.



No comment!


----------



## loadams

Gee, thanks Glen !!!


----------



## GlenC

How do you know you have the right color of yellow? What is your reference?


We all understand that 6500K is the result of the proper balance of RGB. Cut for low IRE and DRV for High IRE and there is almost always interaction between the two.


In your method, for example, if you are a little off on yellow, say plus red, then when you try to set white, you would generally end up minus green (plus blue to compensate for plus red = minus green).

*There is no way to properly set color temp without a measuring device.* You can use a color analyzer or an optical comparator. An optical comparator may be direct reference to clouds, an actual 6500K optical comparator (purchased or home made) or even a B&W TV with D65 phosphor (I have a Sony PVM-96). Some B&W monitors have 5400K and 9300K phosphor, so be careful.


----------



## ADU

loadams,


I dunno. I thought I had this pretty well figured out until Glen and Ken got me all confused again







so I'm gonna start over with a 6500K reference and see how that works.


What I'll be using for comparison is a 6500K fluorescent "daylight" bulb reflected off neutral white and maybe also neutral grey surfaces. The good news is that 6500K lights don't seem quite as difficult to find as I thought. The only place I had a chance to check today was Wallie-world, but they had some that seemed right in the neighborhood of what I was after-- 6500K "Sunlight" screw-in fluorescent bulbs made by Lights of America rated at 82 - 88 CRI. Those may do fine if I can't find anything better at home supply, lighting stores or elsewhere.


----------



## Reagan

Ken and Glen,


I've learned a ton from this thread. Thanks for all your contributions.


-Reagan


----------



## loadams




GlenC said:


> How do you know you have the right color of yellow? What is your reference?
> 
> 
> We all understand that 6500K is the result of the proper balance of RGB. Cut for low IRE and DRV for High IRE and there is almost always interaction between the two.
> 
> 
> Understand that, good point. I don't. This procedure is "eyeballing", just as all of us will do without equipment. However, in the beginning, using my homemade optical comparator, using a reference white (computer monitor @6500 at work) and Photoshop, measuring white(255-255-255), red(255-0-0), green(0-255-0), blue(0-0-255), magenta(255-0-255), and yellow(255-255-0) @ 100,90, and 20 and recording those values to transfer. Leaving GDRV alone(which the values from the monitor where VERY close) and dial in RDRV, I should have my "predicted" value for yellow. Now with RDRV set, I can use the "predicted" values for BDRV using magenta. Cycling thru RGBS and measuring for each screen and comparing their values with their "predicted" values comes close, but not perfect.
> 
> 
> I've used the equation , written by a well known author of a well known calibration disc, to find my predicted values from reference values. AND YES, I have to give credit to UMR of this forum for dues on his eyeballing method.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The interaction is where I want to learn between the two. My whites "look" white, my dark grays "look" dark gray, it's the 40-70 ire's that have a cyan tint to them. As you have stated in an earlier thread, I want to learn where one gun cuts off and it's respective partner takes over. Probably more than I could comprehend or you would even indulge, but I should have been more clear in my first post.
> 
> 
> Glen, you have brought some interesting points to light. I will do some more reading.
> 
> 
> ADU, going to make the rounds today at the local depots. May go your route soon. Thanks.


----------



## ADU

If you find any other 6500K bulbs, especially with a higher CRI than the Walmart bulbs, please give a shout. Hopefully I'll have a chance to poke around a few more home and lighting shops and maybe a petstore before the weekend to see what they have. Full-spectrum 6500K lights seem to be popular with better-living/home & garden and light-therapy enthusiasts as well.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The interaction is where I want to learn between the two. My whites "look" white, my dark grays "look" dark gray, it's the 40-70 ire's that have a cyan tint to them. As you have stated in an earlier thread, I want to learn where one gun cuts off and it's respective partner takes over. Probably more than I could comprehend or you would even indulge, but I should have been more clear in my first post.



OK, now think about what you just wrote (BTW, you left out Cyan (0-255-255)). If Cyan is Green and Blue and you are seeing Cyan in your gray scale, then what's the problem? ? ? ? ? ? Simple, you are minus red, right? If you add a little Red with the RCUT, you might start to see some of the 40 IRE Cyan tint go away. If you then add a little RDRV, you should see a change in the 70 IRE and down to where they interact. This error you are seeing is showing where "you" are able to see the most error in color, "you" think white is white, but the error at 70 IRE is surely carrying through to 100 IRE same with 40 IRE to 0 IRE.


You can experiment, change RDRV only and see how far down it changes the color, it may be visible at 40 IRE. If 40 IRE can be corrected with RDRV and 70 IRE doesn't go plus RED, then the interaction between CUT and DRV is at or below 40 IRE.


----------



## loadams

Thanks Glen, I'll give it a try tonight. Guess I missed about cyan for measurement, thought once I dialed in yellow with RDRV and dialed in blue with magenta there was no need. I'm wrong on that one. Will re-visit that one also tonight. Thanks again.


ADU, will look and report back.. Today's outing was on hold, waiting on contractors.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> loadams,
> 
> 
> What I'll be using for comparison is a 6500K fluorescent "daylight" bulb reflected off neutral white and maybe also neutral grey surfaces. The good news is that 6500K lights don't seem quite as difficult to find as I thought.



I'm skeptical of these sources and the do-it-yourself standard, until tested, because:


(1) These are consumer-lighting bulbs, and I don't trust the quaity-control on the phosphor mix. All specifications such as "6500K" have a built-in tolerance, and I'm almost willing to bet real $$ that if you buy several of these bulbs, place them side-by-side outdoors on a semi-cloudy day, and light 'em up, you will se differences. Hell, I find two bulbs from the same manufacturer bought at different times (say, Lamps of America, same form factor) don't match! If the product description claims "precision 6500K for color matching," well, there's something to be optimistic about, at least.


(2) What would you use as a reflector? All white paper of any quality has ultraviolet-conversion dyes that make them excessively blue. Chemically-untreated paper isn't white, either. I guess I would consider pigments such as titanium-dioxide or zinc oxide, or maybe some tempura whites; but tinges of yellow or some warmish color from the paint's vehicle can screw that up, too. If I were attempting to create such a product, I would test it with a colorimeter to see if I have gotten close.


(3) Any gray made up from dyes will selectively fade with time and change color; gray matte-board is like this. Only pigments are stable. A gray made from lampblack (carbon) and zinc or titanium oxides would be reasonably permanent, unless the vehicle (carrier) turns yellow with age. There are Krylon sprays that have UV-proofing qualities -- but they're very glossy.


There are so many ways that this home-brew color standard can be "contaminated" in the execution! You can always hold it up against the white-cloud standard to check for pink or green, at least.


----------



## GlenC

Well, some may need to wait till November to see a cloud. The can be difficult at night too.


I still don't see how you can get the TV into a position where you can directly compare the clouds and the TV screen. How do you compare 20 IRE to your clouds? The room needs to have low ambient light for 20 IRE without the color of the ambient/reflected light affecting color.


As for Grey and White, here is an option http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/pr...4.10.8.4&lc=en 

When lit with a 6500K (or close) light and depending on the amount of light, can directly be compared to different IRE levels of the screen. In a dark room, comparison to 20 or 30 IRE is possible. With brighter light, the higher IRE can be compared.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My whites "look" white, my dark grays "look" dark gray, it's the 40-70 ire's that have a cyan tint to them.



Wait! Stop right there. You need to figuire out why that could be true, no matter *how* you arrived at that result.


If the mid-tones (40-70 IRE) have a cyan tint, and you're *sure* that the darkest tones (that actually are useful to making up a picture) are really neutral, then the intrinsic response curve (gamma) of the CRT or its drive circuitry for the RED gun does not match the curves of the other guns. The straightforward assumption made during calibration, with instruments or not, is that the curves match. For any one TV, you have no control over them.


(Please be sure first: If you have gotten away from the TV for a few moments to get another beer, say, in an evening-lighted house, the TV *will* look cyan! Your eyes have changed and will have to readjust.)


You can fudge a grayscale nonlinearity it in two ways:


(1) Ignore the almost-black color. You would tweak RCUT to make a realistic b/w picture (Color=OFF) look neutral overall, with whites and mid-tones matching. If you peer into the deepest shadows or display a really dark scene, and things look a little reddish, oh well . . . that is a good compromise because in practice your eye will not see it. If you fanatically adjust the near-blacks for perfection in a dark room, using test patterns, matching your whites perfectly, and then your mid-tones are cynaish or bluish or whatever (been there!), you *will* have screwed-up colors on your picture when you turn the color back up. The eye is very sensitive to mid-tone color! I would accept the compromise near-blacks.


(2) If the midtones are really tinted, you could try fudging one or two of the GAMx controls up one notch. My mid-tones tend a bit yellow when near-black and whites perfectly match. So I first tried knocking GAMB up one point for the GAMM=0 setting (Pro mode). That raised the mid-tone blue, leaving dark and brilliant colors alone. But on my set, it turned out to be a bit of over-correction; I have since made the GAMx settings the same, and I have reconsidered how I judge grayscale linearity, now using *real-world* video sources for judging. *That* has made me happy with the results! Selectively fudging gamma is a legitimate way to cancel out a significant nuisance-nonlinearity in one of the color-drive channels or CRT guns. I hope the need for this is rare.


************

OTHER COMMENTS: When judging b/w-image color tints by eye, several natural "bugs" get in the way. First, the eye color-fatigues quickly, and staring at the screen must be avoided -- or at least don't fixate. Move your eyes around fairly actively. Second, judging the tint of a bright white is very difficult, especially when the eye has become dim-light adapted. The dazzling white can appear reddish when it is not! One of the advantages of using midday clouds is that they are very bright themselves, and after looking at them, a glance at your screen reveals a color error pretty obviously. It's the back-and-forth that works.


My experience has now been that, when you have clean, decent whites, that's how they look watching your favorite broadcasts and DVDs, too. If the whites look *right,* check that grayscale again by turning off Color. If that looks screwed up, it is! Fix the gray scale to agree with the white. I have found consistently that, given the generous amount of bright-white that makes up many commercials on broadcast TV, especially those 4:3 pillarboxed ones on HD broadcast, you might get the impression fairly quickly that, well, they look a little pink or that they are a little "cold" relative to the rest of the picture. They probably are. So fix *that.*


A very effective method for trying out new white/grayscale settings is to mock them up first using the Warm and/or Cool settings. Remember, these are *offsets* that don't screw up your original Neutral settings. Use 2170P-1/ #14-19 to set offsets you'd like to try, remembering that 31 = no effect.


Example: You're not quite sure you've got white quite right -- looks a little blue to you. So go into service mode, set the user menu to Warm (or Cool, doesn't matter), go to 2170P-1 #14, and set everything from RDOF to BCOF to 31. (That's the same as Neutral.) Now decrease #16/BDOF from 31 to 30, and WRITE. While you're at it, you could also set the other "color temp" preset for a second experiment. Maybe decrease BDOF from 31 to 29 for a larger anti-blue change. Just set the user menu to Cool, and make the same settings as above, but BDOF will be 29. WRITE the result.


Now leave service mode, and go back to watching TV with the menu at Neutral. Still think it's too blue? Try out your new settings by switching to Warm or Cool. Screwed up? Well, your original settings for Neutral are still there, and you can try something else for Warm and Cool.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, some may need to wait till November to see a cloud. The can be difficult at night too.



I understand this is a problem for certain areas of the US. And in LA, one can't be sure *what* color the clouds are! (Lived there once. West side.)










> Quote:
> I still don't see how you can get the TV into a position where you can directly compare the clouds and the TV screen.



I turn the TV about 45º, open the front door, and can easily position myself so I can look out of the front door at the sky and then back at the TV. I understand this will be very difficult for some folks. It's just that Nature gave us such a nice reference standard floating up there! So I use it.


> Quote:
> How do you compare 20 IRE to your clouds?



No immediate need. After getting white nearly right, I even out the grayscale on its own: It is its own standard. I can then re-check against the outdoor view. If I have moved everything toward blue, say, I can subtract one point of blue from BCUT and BDRV and re-check. Of course, there's some back and forth. "My" clouds? Oh, please! I wish.


> Quote:
> The room needs to have low ambient light for 20 IRE without the color of the ambient/reflected light affecting color.



So I draw the drapes and close the front door. I have to avoid the leakage of *green* from the trees and bushes just outside the windows, so I tend to tweak grayscale in the evening. I'm not under any pressure to do all of this in one go, as if I were visiting a client's home. For that, I would have a colorimeter, no question!


Glen, there an important question implicit in the above, which you can answer with your colorimeter:


Starting with a perfect grayscale and white point, does adding, say, two points to RDRV *and* two points to RCUT slide the whole red curve evenly upward? I.e. do the colors still *track* even though one of them is now displaced upward (red)? It would be good to know this because one could then make a small white-balance adjustment by adding or subtracting the *same* value from xDRV and XCUT without affecting grayscale linearity -- or at least still be reasonably close. (But maybe you don't have one of these late 34XBR960 or XS955-CRT sets.)


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Glen, there an important question implicit in the above, which you can answer with your colorimeter:
> 
> 
> Starting with a perfect grayscale and white point, does adding, say, two points to RDRV *and* two points to RCUT slide the whole red curve evenly upward? I.e. do the colors still *track* even though one of them is now displaced upward (red)? It would be good to know this because one could then make a small white-balance adjustment by adding or subtracting the *same* value from xDRV and XCUT without affecting grayscale linearity -- or at least still be reasonably close. (But maybe you don't have one of these late 34XBR960 or XS955-CRT sets.)



Ken, I do not have one of these TVs. When I do a calibration, I always need to go back and forth with CUT and DRV. A change in CUT affects DRV a little and a change in DRV can affect CUT. When I have finished with the settings, I exit SM and capture readings from 10 IRE to 100 IRE and look at the x/y data to see the actual trend. I may then go back into the SM and tweak CUT or DRV by 1 or 2 if needed to get the overall gray scale more accurate. Sometimes, I have seen where a larger change in CUT (3, 4, 5, etc.) may need an opposite change in DRV by a few. Like +5 on RCUT and -2 on RDRV. I hope this helps.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you find any other 6500K bulbs, especially with a higher CRI than the Walmart bulbs, please give a shout. Hopefully I'll have a chance to poke around a few more home and lighting shops and maybe a petstore before the weekend to see what they have. Full-spectrum 6500K lights seem to be popular with better-living/home & garden and light-therapy enthusiasts as well.



A small pocket light like http://www.preparedness.com/pofllafl.html with a F4T5/D bulb might work fine.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Gents, would GREATLY appreciate your imput on this procedure, tell me what I am missing.



Without actually trying it out, I would have trouble just analyzing it theoretically. And I *don't* want to mess with my existing TV's settings just now! Off the top, I think some assumptions are likely off-base:


-- That reducing anything in service mode to zero means it's actually at zero. You can't verify this. For example, you can set user Color to zero ("Min"), and it really is: you can see that it is. But those "hidden" zeroes, if they play any part in your theoretical method, may not exist.


-- "Seeing" when something is gray, yellow, white, or just tuirning green would be a nightmare of fighting the eye/mind's ability to compensate -- like trying to judge color thru the eyepiece of a video camera with auto-white-balance turned on. The eye can perceive very small differences in color when areas of color are juxtaposed, as it can differences in brightness -- we're evolved to do that! But absolutes are compensated for to an unpredictable degree -- like the color of a natural illuminant, the sun, at different times of the day.


Your method is like "starting over, clean." It seems to require more work than a good first approximation with a known standard would yield. Comparing with a cloudy day, I saw that my TV was much too blue, with a touch of green. So the first thing I did was jack red a lot and reduce blue a bit. But maybe this was easy for me, as I know my color theory from years of color-darkroom work, consulting for graphic artists, and diddling in Photoshop.


So, sorry, I don't really want to try to verify the details of your method. My bottom line would, of course, be: If you did this, and what you end up seeing is neutral whites that aren't way off-base, *and* a linear grayscale (b/w pictures are color-free), you have arrived! Precisely calibrate your white point to 6500K if you wish, but you should be able to see when results are acceptable.


I would add: If you set the xCUT parameters so you have a good black level with SBRT at 31 and the Brightness slider at 31, you are probably right in he middle of Sony's intended range. SBRT interacts with all of the xCUT settings, of course, acting like a "pedestal" for all of them, and Brightness varies *that.*


Also, the xDRV controls are uniformly modified by the Picture slider--call it a common video-gain control. My TV seemed too dim with Picture at 31, so the first thing I did was increase the *average* setting of the three xDRV controls until I was satisfied. Now HD seems perfect at 31, DVD a little higher, and the relatively dimmer SD broadcasts require Picture to be near 40. Auto-brightness limiting comes into play for those almost all-white screens of many commercials and for some bright animated shows.


Current settings for my 36XS955:

SBRT---RDRV-GDRV-BDRV---RCUT-GCUT-BCUT = 31---41-27-20---51-20-15 [rev 7.22.05]

with offsets in 2170P-3/UBOF of 0 to 4, equalizing the inputs and tuner. (The out-of-the-box RDRV was in the low 30s. Rediculous!)


----------



## loadams

Okay.......


Glen, by your instructions, after diddling, I raised RCUT 3 clicks and RDRV 2 clicks. 40 & 50 ire windows look much better, as do 60 and 70 windows. Crossed gray scale ramp yields better uniformity. After I found where I wanted to go with this, I reverted back to the old values for comparison. Back and forth and such, new RDRV and RCUT values look much better. I do now see where the interaction begins and ends. It only took 2 clicks of RDRV to begin to see the cyan tint disappear from 70 ire without compromising 100 ire. Better results, and yes, whites do "look" better. I know it's not perfect, but now better. Thanks.


Ken, understand your position. I thought as long as we where "twiddling" forum hobbyists, it was something to do. Tried the GAMR curve with my old settings, will keep that in mind for future reference.


And yes, I find it helpful never to look directly at the screen when calibrating grayscale and color decoder. I rotate my eyes around the cabinet of the tv.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm skeptical of these sources and the do-it-yourself standard, until tested, because...
> 
> 
> ...There are so many ways that this home-brew color standard can be "contaminated" in the execution! You can always hold it up against the white-cloud standard to check for pink or green, at least.



Understood Ken. That's one reason I'm trying to find some other sample 6500K lights with higher CRIs, to see if there's any discernable difference between them. We're on the same page re color contamination as well.


A color measuring instrument is undoubtedly the most reliable approach, but this method is probably not that different than tools professional photographers and cinematographers use to judge their imagery. It's such an obvious solution in fact, I'm surprised it didn't occur to me sooner because I've had some level of awareness of the 6500K fluorescent lights for quite awhile. Never considered using them as a calibration aid though til the subject of LEDs came up. I agree with you though that until this approach is confirmed by instrument (or cloud) that it should be regarded as "experimental".


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A small pocket light like http://www.preparedness.com/pofllafl.html with a F4T5/D bulb might work fine.



So basically a miniature portable 6500K flourescent light. Not bad, Glen. My only hesitation on something like this is the slightly higher price (since this is still experimental) and perhaps the 76 CRI rating on the bulb. If possible, I'd like to start with something around a CRI of 90 or higher for comparison. The size and portability certainly look convenient though. And something like that might work just dandy. I wonder if there are other compact "daylight" lights like this that professional photographers might use to look at prints?


----------



## Reagan

Quick question: Is there a way to exit the service menu without turning the TV off?


Thanks,

Reagan


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Reagan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there a way to exit the service menu without turning the TV off?



Nope, not that I have found. And Sony doesn't list anything in the service manual, either.


----------



## ADU

Dunno if this'll help any, but if you're experimenting with different values and just want to recall the settings last written to memory, that can be done with 0 - Enter. So you don't have to keep turning the TV off just to get back to that stage.


This command is not recommended for butterfingers though, because the JUMP, 7 & 9 keys are all in the same vicinity and if you accidentally hit those instead, you could end up in some deep s***. You have been warned.


----------



## CrocHunter

Kentech: can you go into more detail in the MIDE section of the 17 different values.


I'm very interested and will experiment with them later on today.I will use actual images and video to see if there is any visible diference in PQ.


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by *CrocHunter*
Kentech: can you go into more detail in the MIDE section of the 17 different values. I'm very interested and will experiment with them later on today.I will use actual images and video to see if there is any visible diference in PQ.
Sure. But I've already done that in article #12, Post #41 in this thread. Attached is the text of the article plus a chart of the various codes and how you can experiment with them. Good Luck! In the weeks since I wrote this, I haven't changed my mind on any of it -- maybe tinkered a bit with specific edge-enhancement values, but nothing earth-shaking.

 

image_processing.pdf 42.5224609375k . file


----------



## CrocHunter

I already printed that chart a while back, just wanted to know if you knew any more discoveries that's all.


Did you use HQ images and video material to see of any differences?Off the top of your head what would you say is the most important to tinker with on that chart to give me the best PQ.


----------



## Reagan

Now I've got a real problem. While working on grayscale in the service menu, I had a white field (Avia) up for a while (no longer than 8 minutes), and now I have a small green patch in the corner - screen burn. Bear in mind that my contrast was just over the midpoint. I thought I could get away with a solid white field a lot longer than 8 minutes given that I had already set contrast to a decent level (definitely not torch mode), but evidently not. The good news is that it is a small patch in the corner and is only easily viewed when that part of the screen is bright, but it's not good. Is there any hope that it will go away over time?


Question for Glen. I want to try using a photo grey card to set my grayscale. What intensity of white should I use (100ire, 90ire, etc.) when trying to get the whiteness of the screen to match the whiteness of the white side of the card?


Finally, Ken, thanks for the answer on exiting the service menu.


-Reagan


----------



## GlenC

Full white screens do not cause spot burns on the screen.


For calibration, 70 IRE to 80 IRE works well for xDRV and 20 IRE to 30 IRE works well for xCUT. The level of light should be adjusted so the card has about the same luminance as the screen. Depending on the luminance of your 6500K light source, the gray side of the card might match the 70 IRE screen. Remember you are trying to see any minute color difference in the two. If the screen looks slightly red, then reduce RDRV/CUT as needed. If you remember the CIE Chromaticity chart in post #97, you will note that Red moves horizontally, Green moves vertically and Blue moves diagonally. If you can imagine D65 as the center and 3 lines from there to the 3 phosphor colors (a clock at 3h:00m:40s). This means, if you add blue, you are doing the same as a little minus Red and Green. You will need to ping-pong between high and low IRE until both are at the desired temp. You will also need to put up a ramp or stair step pattern to check the entire range. If any step looks off, go back and adjust more.


One reason many people choose to have this done by an ISF Calibrator is that within a few hours, they can be done with it and sit back and enjoy watching their investment. I know that most of you, experimenting with this, have spent enough time that they could have watched a dozen movies. I know, when I decide to tweak or recalibrate my own TV, I may spend 4-6 hours working on it, and I have done it more than once.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Full white screens do not cause spot burns on the screen.



No, but two other things are likely to happen: ("Burn" probably isn't the right word.)


(1) There is a brightness limiter in the video-signal chain that works on the *average* brightness of the screen. Example: On the DVE DVD, there is a series of increasing full-screen grays, right up to 100%. But your Sony XBR or XS-CRT TV won't get any brighter on the last two or three patterns. Only a much smaller area will display a 100% (white) input as brilliant white. The problem? Who knows where this modification of the video signal takes place? I would guess it's late in the chain, but is it before or after the xCUT and xDRV controls? So I would calibrate on only a small white block somewhere on the tube face.


And where you place this block matters because no place on the tube face is guaranteed to be perfect in purity. Which brings up what is likely Reagan's problem. . .


(2) High-brightness images, especially test patterns, cause slight misalignment or warping of the aperture-grille wires, and there's no predicting the pattern. If I put up a bright-white screen or just a b/w movie with a big sky, green-cyan patches develop at the lower-right edge and also just left of center. If I change, say, from 100% to 20% gray full-screen, they're still visible for a few seconds, but fade away. The sudden appearance of a 50% gray pattern on the screen shows almost no color patches at all, and normal TV viewing rarely reveals these problems.


I have read -- and a Sony tech has explained -- roughly the same thing: mix together Big Tube, super-fine phosphor pitch, and bright image, and you are pushing the limits of current manufacturing technology to hold everything in place through such large temperature swings.


Some day I'll examine the left-of-center purity issue, but if Glen were calibrating my TV I would have to specify *where* I want the calibrator stuck to the screen and caution him about the heating and brightness-limiting issues, in case he wasn't familiar with them for this TV.


For Reagan: Some have said that grille-warping can be permament. I can't say; my issues were there from Day One. If the CRT has truly changed in a way you can't adjust away, have it declared defective and replaced. Some have posted about such a problem and have had their tubes successfully replaced by Sony. (I think the 40" monster had *big* issues like this.) Or you may be able to adjust it away with the LANDING settings. Maybe this is just a break-in issue, not a damage issue, and if you make it go away with a readjustment of the first 6 codes in LANDING, it will be stable form now on -- or at least predictable.


Write down everything first for all LANDING settings, then set LT thru RB (the corners) to 127. Try every combination of nos. 4, 5, and 6 (EWSP thru TESW), and maybe 8 and 9 too, to get the most-even screen for NOT a bright white but something more reasonable, like 40-50 IRE. Then adjust 0 thru 3 for the four corners (left-top, left-bottom, etc.). Be sure to do this with the TV in its normal viewing alignment (north, east, etc.). Do NOT stare at the screen, but keep your eyes moving, as they quickly accommodate to any color unevenness, and you'll think the colors have evened out, when they haven't.


Fair warning, Glen, if you put up a bright stair-step pattern or anything like it on *this* TV, it's color will drift within a few seconds. I confirm my color-setup judgements based on the very transient display of a pattern or on constantly-moving real B/W images, which tend not to heat the grille in any one place to a significant degree.


----------



## GlenC

With a CRT device, direct view, rear projection and front projection, they need to be calibrated in the center of the screen. Because these are 3-gun devices, all three colors cannot emanate from the same point. Green is in the center flanked by Red and Blue. One side of the screen will favor red and the other blue. They all do it. On the higher end of the scale, my Marquee projector has R, G & B zone color gain controls to compensate for this and projection angles.


I have seen the white clipping you are talking about, while calibrating a 960. I noticed it in the gamma graph noticing that after 70 IRE the curve started to flatten. Reducing the contrast helped normalize the curve. This was noticed with the white window patterns, not full fields. While this TV is capable of higher lumens, it is only at the sacrifice of picture quality. Having contrast set too high can also be very fatiguing to watch in low ambient lighting situations. A good check for contrast setting is to closely look for the scan-lines and set contrast just below the point they start to change width. This is easiest on a 480i signal.


As I have stated before, I set the color temp, then review the temperature readings by x/y coordinates for 10 IRE to 100 IRE using window test patterns. Once I am satisfied, I cycle through numerous test patterns verifying uniformity, none are really displayed for more than a few seconds.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have seen the white clipping you are talking about, while calibrating a 960. I noticed it in the gamma graph noticing that after 70 IRE the curve started to flatten.



It's not white clipping, since a small portion of the screen can reach 100% (white) easily. Further, it isn't the whites that are clipped; rather it is the whole picture that is reduced in "contrast," as if you have turned down the Picture slider. The relative tonalities are preserved. When 100% is reduced to 70, 50 is reduced to 35, etc.


There *is* real white clipping available in service mode, but in Pro mode it is set to off. White clipping is the limiting of brightness wherever it occurs and for whatever area, even small specular highlights. There is also a dynamic brightness/contrast (pick your term) system in these sets, active in Vivid and Standard, off in Pro, also controllable in service mode.


The brightness-response curve of these sets simply cannot be measured with a full-screen brightness pattern because it improperly forces the CRT beam-current limiter to activate (which is what I think it really is). Bottom line: You get a "clipped" curve if the pattern is full-screen, but an accurate curve if only a small white/gray box is used.


If you turned down the brightness on that 960 to keep out of the beam-current limiter's domain, you set up the set much too dim, much dimmer than it is capable of with good focus and color fidelity on real-world video. Excepting a few commercials, animations, and rare snow shots, real-world programming rarely hits the limiter, and you shouldn't attempt to avoid it in calibration. It also activates so quickly, the viewer is generally unaware of its action. Just let it do its work when it must to protect the CRT. Set up the video response as if it's not there.


----------



## GlenC

Technicalities againcrushing, clipping, roll-off, whatever, I should have written a paragraph describing the reduction in the lumen delta from one IRE step to the next to avoid using a wrong label.


When you have Picture/Contrast set too high, the TV starts to crush the whites (I mean reduce the difference in lumens from one step to the next). The difference in lumens from 80 IRE to 81 IRE to 82 IRE .to 100 IRE for each step falls off from the trend. What I mean is, when the gamma is approx 2.1 from 10 IRE to 70 IRE then falls to 1.8 @ 80 IRE and 1.6 @ 90 IRE, contrast (not brightness) is too high. Clipping of whites starts when lumen delta between 90 IRE and 100 IRE decreases from the average. Clipping can be as severe as not being able to distinguish any lumen difference between 80, 90 & 100 IRE. TVs with different gamma curves will have different steps/spacing between IRE levels. Reducing contrast to the point of achieving a uniform gamma curve is not setting it too dim (you are not reading all I wrote, again. This is being done with a WINDOW pattern not a full screen.), it is just properly setting it.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's not white clipping, since a small portion of the screen can reach 100% (white) easily. Further, it isn't the whites that are clipped; rather it is the whole picture that is reduced in "contrast," as if you have turned down the Picture slider. The relative tonalities are preserved. When 100% is reduced to 70, 50 is reduced to 35, etc.
> (edited)



What are you talking about? The input signal has not changed. A 100% signal is a 100% signal or a 100 IRE signal, sure all input devices may have a slightly different voltage than the absolute standard, but it is still sending its' 100%/IRE signal. When you reduce the lumens, you are not changing the signal or IRE level. There is no standard for that says, 100%/IRE = x lumens. Every TV on the planet has a different lumen level for a 100 IRE signal.


All displays with a point light source (CRT DV F/R projection, LCD, DLP, LcoS etc. F/R projection) have more lumens in the center of the screen. I haven't measured the 960, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a 200% difference or more from the center to the corners. By this I mean, if you have 55 ft-lamberts in the center of a white field, you may only have 27.5 ft-lamberts or less in the corners. The 27.5 ft-lamberts in the corners may be the same as a 70 IRE field is in the center. This has nothing to do with any kind of internal limiting. Additionally, as I recall, one of the main differences in the different modes for luminance is the gamma curve selected for each.


As you increase contrast, you start stretching the curve upward. All TVs have a maximum lumen output and it will not be the same on all TVs, even those of the same model number. There are just electronic variances. All TVs have a maximum point where you start to loose scan-line detail and rarely is it where the maximum lumen output is. Many TVs have an adjustable threshold so you can't over drive contrast.


Ken, you personally, may choose to over drive your contrast a little, that is your prerogative, however to properly calibrate a display, to industry standards/guidelines, that would not be the right choice. High lumens with high contrast in a dimly lit room can be very uncomfortable to watch.


----------



## Reagan

Glen and Ken,


Thanks for the advice. My Sony (HS 420) is over a year old (I bought the first one that showed up around here), so there's no returning it. I really do appreciate the advice. And Glen, regarding your point about an ISF calibration, I'd gladly do it if you're ever in the area. The problem is that no one is in my area. The closest ones are in Nashville and at least one of them will only do it for TVs sold in their store.


I'll be putting your recommendations to good use.


Thanks again,

Reagan


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What are you talking about?



I have re-edited my posts above to eliminate the term "IRE." I used it above in the sense "the brightness on-screen that corresponds to" or "what 50 IRE should look like," when I know it should strictly refer only to a specific input voltage. I guess I thought the context made it plain.


Since "IRE" and "input voltages" are probably technobabble to most readers, I'll try to avoid those terms; instead I'll say "a video level that should produce 50% on-screen," which is really what I mean, rather than "50IRE." The distinction I am trying to make is between what an *ideal* TV should display (or what one thinks it's displaying) and what actually happens.


From Reagan's post, it seems he is using full-screen patterns when he refers to "solid white field." And so I wanted to make the point, at the very least, that this TV chassis, in whatever its manifestation, can't handle that and has an excellent self-protection mechanism that works on the *average* brightness of the entire screen.


Please re-read my edited posts above, and you may wish to alter yours a bit, too.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> you personally, may choose to over drive your contrast a little, that is your prerogative, however to properly calibrate a display, to industry standards/guidelines, that would not be the right choice.



I understand guidelines for things such as white point = 6500K. But how can there be an "industry standard" for screen brightness when the choice should be made at the time and conditions of viewing based on room illumination and source material? (Assuming that for *my* TV, I am not overdriving the video channel so whites are crushed. BTW, for this TV chassis, that limit seems very much higher than I have ever witnessed, even momentarily.)


> Quote:
> High lumens with high contrast in a dimly lit room can be very uncomfortable to watch.



Well, duh. So you turn down the Picture control. The human should control the TV, and not the other way around, no?


----------



## KenTech

Since "white-clip" is an issue with these CRT TVs, I will define my terms I'll use as I write about this. There seem to be three different mechanisms in this series of CRT-TVs by which brightness of white is *intentionally* limited. Fortunately two of these (the most obnoxious) are set to *no effect* for the Pro mode, but there is that overall brightness limiter for which there seem to be no controls in service mode (just as well, for the protection of the tube).


(1) "Clipping" is an engineering term, well-defined. If you snip (clip) off the tops of an electrical signal where it goes very high, *that* is clipping. It happens in an audio amplifier when the instantaneous voltage demanded of it exceeds the available power voltage, and the waveform is neatly "clipped" at the tops of the waveform. In a video-processing chain, you would see evidence of it with a grayscale test pattern: the "whites" all run together. The THX setup patterns on "Monsters, Inc" and other DVDs will reveal it. On a football player's white helmet, the sunlight reflections won't be visible at all; the helmet is just a white blob. Some TVs and DVD players won't display "blacker than black," either, which is effectively black clipping. Not a problem with this Sony series.


Clipping can be "soft" so the limit is reached more gently, rather than a brick wall. This could be true of inadequately-designed video amplifiers in a TV, causing poor separation of highlights, rather than just cutting them off. Bright objects lose their texture, and light-colored faces become pasty. Very ugly! (The informal term "white crush" describes all of these visual effects.) Perhaps this is a characteristic of these Sony TVs if you crank up brightness far enough, but I haven't found a point where this happens; over an immense picture-brightness range, highlight contrast seems correct in context -- a far cry from lower-class TVs *and* from Sony's models from 10-20 years ago.


Important: Clipping is *instantaneous* right where the scanning beam happens to be at that instant. The pattern/picture being displayed has no bearing on it, except in its intensity at that point on the screen.


I know for sure of at least one optional clipping setting in service mode: 2170P-2 #4/YLMT. If set to 3, it appears to have no discernable effect. As its value is reduced, extreme whites are clipped, as described above. The data charts show default=3, and my set was set to 3. So it's an unused "feature"; may it remain so.


(2) Overall brightness limiting is built-in, likely to protect the CRT and its associated high-voltage power supply from excessive current thrown at the screen. (Yes, the three electron beams streaming at the face of the tube constitute an electrical current.) I have to trust that Sony designers have determined a "safe" maximum value for this current. Too much current draw from the power supply, and the high voltage for the CRT will drop, causing ugly bloating and dimming of the picture. Heating of the CRT's aperture grille causes (usually temporary) warping and off-color blotches on the screen. The protection seems to be the last thing in the chain: You can crank up xDRV for each of the guns all you want, but there is an *average* for the whole screen that can't be exceeded.


You should *not* wish for this to go away. The action occurs so quickly that it is almost imperceptible, and the contrast-integrity of the picture is conserved: nothing is clipped. It's like an almost-instantaneous temporary decrease in the Picture-slider setting. If you are watching something that triggers it so it bothers you, such as a bright, animated kids show, turn down Picture until you don't see it. (Bet your kids won't see it!) Indeed, I am thankful that those bright-white commercials are dimmed!


When calibrating the TV, a small "window" of various levels of gray (NOT full screen) has to be displayed to guarantee that this protection device isn't inadvertently triggered.


(3) A slow-acting (over a few seconds) modification of the picture contrast and brightness (including black level) is offered by these sets as a processing *option,* controlled by service-mode codes 2170P-4/BLK thru DSBO. If BLK is set to 0, and the following three codes are set to 0-0-7, this effect is turned off completely, normal for Pro mode. The sudden appearance of a bright object will not depress the black level, and there will be no manipulation of the contrast. I tried to document this, as best I could, in article #06, post #7 in this thread. I should think that no video perfectionist wants any part of this! It is normally selectively in effect for all but Pro mode. I've killed it for *all* modes.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Because these are 3-gun devices, all three colors cannot emanate from the same point. Green is in the center flanked by Red and Blue. One side of the screen will favor red and the other blue.



This seems quite relevant for projection systems. But in my years of calibrating or just informally setting up many aperture-grille CRT monitors from Sony and Mitsubishi, plus my own several inline-RGB CRT sets, I have never observed this, no have my fussiest clients. Surely the *proportion* of the total distance from the three guns to the screen represented by their physical separation is much smaller than in a typical three-source rear-projection system.


Since my slight color-contamination blotch left of center does not continue to the edge, and there are a colony of magnets growing on the back of the tube, aligned with the blotch, I wonder if it's just a purity setup gone awry. (That's what a tech thought, but he warned me of the interactions of these magnets with convergence, and *that* seems really fine in that area.) I'm temped to accept it as-is for now.


----------



## GlenC

There are industry standards for most anything. As far as it pertains to movies, there are some guidelines as it pertains to screen lumens and viewer comfort. This is addressed in most every theater in the country. When is the last time you went to the theater and came out with a headache because the picture was way too bright?


Ken, what you don't seem to see is, the target goal of a calibration, ISF or not, is to achieve the optimum image for the viewing condition without compromise. Since all video displays are not perfect and do not calibrate perfectly we have to settle with what we get. The calibration settings are usually based on standards and the desired elimination of as many artifacts as possible. These standards may be; color temp = 6500K; gamma = 2.2 and the artifacts can be edge enhancement, blooming, color shift, crushing/clipping (black or white) room conditions, or anything that adversely affects picture quality.


When you choose to deviate from optimum settings that is your choice, but the goal/result of a complete ISF calibration should be to optimize for all viewing, including bright snow scenes, no matter how frequently or if they are watched.


If you set contrast to the point the scan-lines start to grow or blend together, you are starting to induce artifacts into the picture. Yes, you may want it to produce more lumens, but there is a resulting reduction in picture quality. For night viewing there will need to be different settings from Day viewing. If you have contrast set to the point of maximum lumens (without the loss of any detail or color shifting) and brightness set to see the dark detail in a lit room or daytime viewing condition, Contrast and Brightness controls will be set too high for proper night viewing. ISF calibrations try to include Day and Night viewing settings when available. The new TVs with the ISFccc (Custom Calibration Configuration) have separate Day and Night calibration modes available for each input.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There are industry standards for most anything.



Sort of a Big Brother argument, wouldn't you say? I see the tone of your post as (simplified) (1) for any condition, there is only one *right* setting; (2) only an ISF tech knows what that is; (3) the user/owner of the TV should keep his bloody hands off the remote, as *we* have determined the "proper" brightness; (4) since, after all, the user is either too stupid or ignorant to adjust the brightness himself; and (5) having convinced folks of at least points 1-3, you sell them the service. And again when things change.


Many of the calibrations offered by ISF and other competent calibration are worth their weight in gold, white point and grayscale linearity being among them. But, aside from dogmatically insisting on it, you have never defended, for example, the notion that there is "one" correct (overall, picture) brightness. The ISF position seems to be oblivious to the vast variation in source material and that there are more viewing conditions than "day" and "night" and that the user can easily correct any deficiencies with the remote and the user menu. If the user does not perceive a problem that needs fixing wiith the remote, then what possible value could brightness calibration be, except its dubious distinction as a bragging point. My solution: teach the user how to be sensitive to the finer "perfectionist" points of video display and how to correctly adjust their TV after the *basics* have been set up to obvious standards. Even the most basic -- white point, grayscale, color decoding, black point -- can be well set up without spending big $$ on technical services.


Everything I post in this thread is designed to educate folks to the best of my ability so that *they* can control their TV, if they choose to do so. Information is power. The "do as you're told" undercurrent I see in threads discussing the ISF calibratiion business is antithetical to what I believe in, and so you'll find me unsympathetic. I am writing for folks who, like me, want to get involved making their own corrections to their TVs in service mode, or who want to learn more about what's possible, even if they're reluctant to try. Others? Well, read Q of Banditz' thread for a glowing account of what I would hope for from any tech, ISF or not, that gets anywhere near my TV!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=561596 


I'd pay this guy just to rip all of the magnets off my tube and get purity and static convergence done right for once -- and do an initial white and grayscale setup, all at a fair price. Sorta depends on the guy doing it, right? That's what referrals are for.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you set contrast to the point the scan-lines start to grow or blend together, you are starting to induce artifacts into the picture. Yes, you may want it to produce more lumens, but there is a resulting reduction in picture quality.



But what (picture) brightness you can achieve with no *significant* decrease in quality depends on how the original focusing was accomplished. Fine scan-lines are not the goal, but a well-controlled spot size for the expected brightness range. (The spot should be a vertical oval in the center, changing to different-shaped ovals everywhere else.)


Articles 13a abd 13b describe how to accomplish decent focus, using Sony's own sequence of adjsutments. If the test pattern is bright enough (see article), the resulting focus holds over a vast brightness range. If the set is focused for low-brightness detail, the scanning spot will tend to "bloom" excessively in the brighter areas of the picture, smearing fine detail, such as tree branches against sky. Good focusing procedure results in very little image-quality compromise up to fairly high-brightness levels.


Note that most of the high-brightness bits in typical video scenes are not vast areas but small details, such as specular highlights, that add authenticity to a scene. Even if those small areas have smeared detail, it is of virtually no significance; the user can always judge for themselves, and turn Picture down if there's a problem. Otherwise those small bright bits make the video truly exciting and three-dimensional!


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I see the tone of your post as (simplified) (1) for any condition, there is only one *right* setting; (2) only an ISF tech knows what that is; (3) the user/owner of the TV should keep his bloody hands off the remote, as *we* have determined the "proper" brightness; (4) since, after all, the user is either too stupid or ignorant to adjust the brightness himself; and (5) having convinced folks of at least points 1-3, you sell them the service. And again when things change.



How wrong and bias can you get?

There is an optimal/desired target
Only? NO, they should know what to look for and how to achieve it. It's not rocket science, anyone can learn what to look for.
Of the millions of TV viewers, few can properly set the user controls. If they don't understand or know what to look for, then not changing the controls may be good advice. Do you let your friends or neighbors cange your settings?
"Stupid" and "ignorant", is referring to others that may not understand or want to learn the adjustments and their affect is stupid and ignorant on your part.
Not wanting to learn, understand or deal with the time and effort to calibrate their own TV is the way many people are. Some, then choose to have it done by an ISF Calibrator, some don't do anything and the majority have no idea that their TV picture can be improved. I have done calibrations where the customer tried Avia or DVE and just couldn't get it right. They just didn't understand what to look for and have never seen a calibrated or reference display. I show/teach them during the calibration.



> Quote:
> Many of the calibrations offered by ISF and other competent calibration are worth their weight in gold, white point and grayscale linearity being among them. But, aside from dogmatically insisting on it, you have never defended, for example, the notion that there is "one" correct (overall, picture) brightness.



You still haven't got a grasp of the concept here. There are numerous settings that all interact with an optimal picture for the existing/targeted viewing conditions. What I am saying about the contrast setting and luminance is; there is a point where individual scan-lines start to loose their detail. It can be described as the line is starting to get fuzzy. At that point, contrast has gone too far. Sure you may get more light output, but you are loosing picture detail. If you choose to do so, then it's your choice, not the best/only one for everyone.



> Quote:
> The ISF position seems to be oblivious to the vast variation in source material and that there are more viewing conditions than "day" and "night" and that the user can easily correct any deficiencies with the remote and the user menu. If the user does not perceive a problem that needs fixing wiith the remote, then what possible value could brightness calibration be, except its dubious distinction as a bragging point.



Is this just another attack childish attack on ISF? Variations in source material is unpredictable and you can't tell if it is intentional. If a calibration is done to accommodate the users major viewing conditions they are usually happy. What you don't seem to understand is the number of people willing to learn and adjust their own TVs is miniscule, the population that knows there is a need to adjust the TV is slightly larger than that. Most consumers want ONE button. They want to turn it on and watch it, they don't even want to change viewing modes let alone adjust Brightness and Contrast for each program.


My only objection is your insisting position that your calibration method is the only valid solution to a calibration. Because you don't want to spend $5K on a color analyzer and think your eye is just as good doesn't mean that the members of the forum have to agree, or are willing to try. If the intent of this thread and all of the threads in this forum is to help inform and educate those that are interested in learning, then attacking others and insisting your method is right and the only way to proceed, greatly reduces your credibility.


Throughout this thread I have tried to explain the approach I use to achieve specific and/or desired results. I have even given recommendations on DIY techniques and procedures and never tried to solicit business. I have provided detailed color temperature calibration techniques to help the readers better understand the concept. I have also tried to explain why adherence to certain standards is necessary when providing others with calibration services. You will most likely never agree that there is any other method to properly calibrate a video display than yours, and I am sorry for that. It tells me you are not open to any suggestions, and your attacks on me and ISF calibrations in general, show it. I have stated I think it is difficult for anyone to use clouds to accurately set white balance, but I didn't say it was wrong or couldn't be an alternative DIY option. I gave optical comparator methods for those without clouds, which you even attacked because of the accuracy of 6500K light sources, and you really attacked the x/y coordinate method of accurately setting color temperature to D65 with a color analyzer.


----------



## ADU

Reagan,


Your green spot may just be the result of some magnetic buildup in that area of the screen. Speakers and other nearby electronic equipment or fields could be the cause. I get spots like that from time to time as well, and usually they go away after the screen has been degaussed a few times, and/or a few components are shuffled around, or the TV is moved to a different location or orientation.


The TV will automatically degauss itself every time you turn it on. It's not a good idea to turn the TV off and on repeatedly in a short space of time though. So you're probably best just letting the degaussing take its course through normal use, or at least giving it about half hour to cool off before powering it on again.


See this link for more: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm


----------



## ADU

One thing I have noticed on my Sony 34XBR800 (and some other TVs) is that the _convergence_ seems to be sensitive to how high contrast is set. So I do try to set the contrast and leave it and make adjustments to picture content via other means.


I believe some other TVs may have "dynamically adjusting convergence" though. And was wondering if that might address this issue. Any thoughts on this?


----------



## loadams

What I have heard no one mention, or at least I will have to review this thread, is the control of ambient lighting. If I'm not mistaken, next to properly setting a "standard" ft-lambert of the display, ambient lighting IS CRUCIAL.

From what I have learned, 30 ft-lamberts would be just fine for a direct view crt in a dimly lit room, 50 for a bright sun lit room. So going from where the standard should be set, you will have to more than double you light output to get satisfactory results in a brightly lit room. So there we go. There must be a standard set somewhere for ONE viewing condition ! And there is. That's why an ISF calibrator SHOULD take the extra step to ensure ambient conditions will be met for his work. Now, am I right or wrong on this ?

But................. at least in my home, viewing conditions aren't always as desired. Wife pulls drapes back, I pull them shut, cycle goes on. You know the drill. That is where I like to have the control of the remote. Not to sit there and watch something I'm interested in only to have the picture halfa**.


Now my luck changed last week. I opted for a new couch. Wife said the drapes don't match. Hmmm. Could I possibly talk her into something like.....a really dark set of brown curtains? Yep. Made the biggest difference. Daytime viewing is much more pleasing now. There is now marriage between daytime and nighttime viewing. And the remote stays put.


Maybe we should lighten up a little in here. Now I'm not saying the content is not enjoyable, but I sure would like to sit down with you guys for a beer or two. Maybe we could all go over to Ken's place and check out his set and marvel. Then, Glen, maybe you could show us your magic at your place. Take in to perspective gentlemen, until we do that................ you finish the sentence.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One thing I have noticed on my Sony 34XBR800 (and some other TVs) is that the _convergence_ seems to be sensitive to how high contrast is set. So I do try to set the contrast and leave it and make adjustments to picture content via other means.



I think this is the case with all phosphor based displays. It also goes back to my comment about maximum contrast setting should be at a point just below the start of scan-line distortion. As a dot displayed on a phosphor screen is excited beyond its optimal range, it starts to grow, bleed over into its surrounding area. This is also where you can see focus and convergence issues because R, G, & B all react a little differently and have different DRV settings. My guess would be that the one with the highest DRV setting would be the first to go. If RDRV is the highest setting, then with a grid pattern, as contrast is increased, you might start to see a little red bleeding from each side of the line.


Maximum, optimal contrast, depending on individual display capabilities, is not always right setting for all viewing conditions. Some displays are not capable of excessive lumens in a dark viewing environment, therefore its max would be appropriate.


The picture, almost always, is sharper with reduced contrast. This is one reason I plan to stack two Marquee 9500LC projectors for my HT. Twice the light output will allow me to reduce contrast resulting in a much sharper image. This is much more noticeable on a screen that is 10.5 times the area of the 34 screen.


----------



## GlenC

This may be interesting reading for some:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1734380,00.asp 

http://www.etconsult.com/papers/whitepoint.pdf


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> It also goes back to my comment about “maximum” contrast setting should be at a point just below the start of scan-line distortion.



Here's what I notice on my 34XBR800, FWIW. If I put a one-pixel thin white horizontal line on a light grey backdrop, and then begin to overdrive the contrast in a progressive mode (480p), the white line will start to expand in width, and then it will actually separate into _two distinct lines_! Either this is a problem with my TV, or it graphically illustrates the potential loss of clarity in a vertical direction when contrast is set too high.


If I set convergence with contrast adjusted to the point just before this vertical "blooming" distortion begins to occur, then the convergence will also go noticeably out of adjustment in the _horizontal_ direction if contrast is increased as well. And I'll begin to get red and blue fringing on high contrast vertical edges especially toward the sides of the screen. So my TV can loose PQ in both directions as a result of increasing contrast beyond a certain point.

_Decreasing_ contrast (below the distortion point) seems to be less of a problem though. So I'm inclined to agree that there is an optimum setting for _maximum_ contrast on my 34XBR800 that should not generally be exceeded for best picture clarity. And I frequently seem to need all that contrast (and then some) on this TV for a decent picture. There's alot you can do to control the picture by other means though. I frequently tweak the gamma* and sometimes the white level/clipping** via controls on the DVD player, since that's easiest. Ken's method of setting up different gamma configurations on the TV might be another way of handling this. Controlling ambient light (and readjusting black level/Brightness on the TV as necessary) might be another. I don't like to have ambient light _too low_ though, because then the phosphor lag/trails on the CRT start to become distracting.


Whether there are other features that might mitigate some of these contrast-related issues on newer TVs than mine, I can't say.

* This is labeled "Brightness" on my Sony DVP-NS715P player, and "Gamma" on the video overlay on my PC

** I believe this control is labeled "Picture" on my Sony player and either "Picture" or "Contrast" on the video overlay on my PC.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So I'm inclined to agree that there is an optimum setting for _maximum_ contrast on my 34XBR800 that should not generally be exceeded for best picture clarity. And I frequently need all that contrast (and then some) on this TV for a watchable picture. So I often have to compensate, ie brighten the image, via other means (usually with the gamma* and white level/clipping** controls on the DVD player, since that's easiest).



This is exactly what I would expect from *any* CRT television, as they all share the same laws of physics and the shortcomings of magnetic-deflection and focusing mechanisms. The "fattening" of the scan spot with increasing brightness *always* occurs. My experience extends from old green oscilloscope tubes from the 50s thru modern flat-face oscilloscope tubes, modern fine monitors, and these current TVs. The beam always spreads with increased beam current (intensity). But how bad it is for a given screen brightness seems to depend a lot on how elegantly the engineers have designed the beam-forming electrodes (the "gun") and the "shape" of the focusing field. Modern tubes are amazing, compared with older designs. The current Sony SFP uncoated tubes can achieve brightness levels without significant degradation I never would have imagined before owning one!


In practice, all one can do is focus the display according to sensible techniques. Sony have accommodated these huge, wide-deflection tubes amazingly well with sophisticated dynamic-focus and -convergence schemes. Tuning the screen-center focus for a fairly high-brightness test pattern will produce different results from using a dim pattern under low ambient light: spot blooming will be minimized in bright areas, but it will never go away. It's is, as you say, a matter of tolerance.


If I had your set (and I nearly do: the 36" is huge, but it has a newer-technology tube), I would optimize focus, set Picture at midpoint (31), and set the drives for the highest brightness that you think maintains high quality. Then, while watching, you can up the Picture for video sources that need it (maybe small areas of white without detail anyway), or return it to your "optimum" for critical viewing of a favorite DVD. That way, you maintain control, but you know at least one setting (31) that is near-perfect as a reference point.


I agree that the ambient lighting is very important, especially its brightness. If the TV does not dominate the eye/brain color-sensing mechanism, the surrounding colors start to affect what you perceive as "neutral" tones. For critical viewing, I find that the background lighting must be much less intense than the TV's display and not too strongly colored. But I can't imagine painting my wall behind the TV titanium-dioxide white and using only a 6500K backlight. Of course it will work, but, jeez! it's a *living* room.


> Quote:
> Whether there are other features that might mitigate some of these contrast-related issues on newer TVs than mine, I can't say.



I know no further tricks, either. Getting that initial focus adjustment right, howerver, made a significant difference in the quailty of bright scenes on my TV. That's why I wrote article #13.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This may be interesting reading for some:
> http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1734380,00.asp



. . . or *required* if you recall some of your science education and really care about what we're duscussing in this thread. This marvelous article is bookmarked on my computer for reference. Three cheers for technical writing that avoids unnecessary jargon while really explaining the important basics.


> Quote:
> http://www.etconsult.com/papers/whitepoint.pdf



Thanks for this! Last evening I saw the latest "Batman" movie in a new, state-of-the-art theater and couldn't stop thinking about black level and white balance! This article explains a lot and is timely for me. It should be a little sobering for those who consider sacred the "director's intent," illustrating just how much variations there are in real cinema theaters. Outdoor scenes, showing occasional clear film, seemed yellowish to me in the blown highlights, and the black level sucked -- and this in an otherwise very dark movie.


Both of these articles have made me very happy to have a fine CRT-TV, and someday I'll have to borrow/rent "Batman" to see what a DVD transfer looks like.


----------



## GlenC

ADU,

My approach on this is to display a full white field. If you use 480i, individual scan-lines should be visible up close. Then if you change Picture you should be able to see when the black space between the scan-lines starts to narrow and even disappear if pushed too high. You could also take this a step further by using primary fields, 100 Red, 100 Green and 100 Blue to see if any start at a different point. Blue is not as big a problem as Red and Green.


These TVs can easily put out 50 ft-lamberts at the center of the screen. This is way above SMPTE theater viewing levels. When you further reduce Picture for night viewing, the eye will adjust to it to the point you will feel it in the eye when there is a bright flash on the screen. If you view with too bright of a screen, it will be harder for the eye to see black details and you will need to adjust the black level accordingly. One way to test this is to use the Needle Pulse pattern with the half 0 IRE and half 100 IRE. Use your high Picture setting and adjust to the proper black level. Now start reducing Picture and watch you black level setting.


As for many theater setups, it wouldn't surprise me if the operator knew as much about setup as the local CC or BB salesmen do about TVs. . . . . . . "You push this button and the picture comes up there".


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My approach on this is to display a full white field. If you use 480i, individual scan-lines should be visible up close.



Glen, you do pull the back off these CRT sets and redo focus before judging brightness and line overlap, right?


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you use 480i, individual scan-lines should be visible up close...



[I think] I know what you're driving at here, but for those who may not be following along quite so closely...







to see the individual scanlines, ideally what you want is for the screen to be displaying/scanning in a 31.5khz 480p progressive mode, which is acheived either by directly feeding the TV a 480p signal, or by using 480i with either the Progressive or Cinemotion up-conversion (both of which also display at 480p on the screen).


----------



## CrocHunter

Kentech, found a few discoverys last night with the MID 5 tables:


MHYR adds a blurring effect like MHLY and MHLC,i confirmed this with still images on the DVE disc using the troubleshooting section in the color section where it shows the still images of the girl in the restaraunt, the red head girl, the college campus with people outside, and the boy outsidde on the grass.Up close it was visible but very minor blurring effect.


Here arer my settings for MID 5 that i made better:


MHLY: 0

MHLC: 0

MVLY: 0

MVLC: 0

MHYR: 0

MHYL: 1

MHYE: 0

MHYO: 1

MHCR: 0

MHCL: 0

MHCE: 0

MHCO: 0

MVYR: 0

MVYL: 0

MVYE: 0

MVCR: 0

MVCL: 0

MVCE: 0


for the factory settyings for each input all were at 0 except for MHLY and MHLC these were on for each input and i turned them off, picturte is much better now and texture is clearly visible without being over enhanced or munipulated.


The goal like you said was to just pass the signall to the screen without any processing what so ever, the less the better and it looks great!


I still don't understand why sony would turn on tyhe low pass filters, theres really no need for them it just blurs the images and ruins textures.


My factory settings for MID 5 video input 5-6 component 480p were:


MHLY: 1

MHLC: 3

MVLY: 0

MVLC: 0

MHYR: 1

MHYL: 1

MHYE: 4

MHYO: 1

MHCR:0

MHCL: 0

MHCE: 0

MHCO: 0

MVYR: 0

MVYL: 0

MVYE: 0

MVCR: 0

MVCL: 0

MVCE: 0


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Glen, you do pull the back off these CRT sets and redo focus before judging brightness and line overlap, right?



I have not gotten there yet. I haven't done the magnets either. I don't have one of these TVs at home to use as a test unit. This level of work is really beyond the scope of Basic ISF Calibrations and best for trained technicians. Experimenting on your own TV is one thing, but doing it for others has different responsibilities. Some of us will provide additional scope of calibration/alignment work, but most are not Authorized Repair technicians. Many of the people that ask for calibrations have new TVs that are usually under warranty. I always recommend they seek warranty service first. Some actually get replacement TVs. Warranty service and most service technicians don't have the equipment and will not do color calibration and really don't seem to care about any of the user settings either.


There are so many factors in this. A lot of calibration work is done within three feet of the TV to be able to see the detail, even with my 110 screen. Not everyone has acute vision to see slight focus errors, wearing glasses can create the appearance of convergence errors. Most people can see/detect slight color differences and are much less sensitive to change in light level.


I am a DIY kind of a person, I have done a variety of things over the years, worked on Navy jets (F-4J), Porsche race cars, rebuilt cars, painted cars, designed engineered and built a house, cabinet work, rebuilt and modified CRT projectors Because of my varied background, I have a tendency, or am willing to go a little deeper in calibrations when I have enough documentation (which doesn't always exist). I am willing to experiment with adjustments, but not without fully discussing and disclosing to the customer that I haven't done this before, etc. Occasionally, I may experiment with adjustments to try to improve the image at no additional cost to the customer. Some TVs like DLP and LCD can be difficult on gray scale, Contrast and Brightness settings.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I know what you're driving at here, but for those who may not be following along quite so closely...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to see the individual scanlines, ideally what you want is for the screen to be displaying/scanning in a 31.5khz 480p progressive mode, which is acheived either by directly feeding the TV a 480p signal, or by using 480i with either the Progressive or Cinemotion up-conversion (both of which also display at 480p on the screen).



If you stay with an interlaced signal, you will see the scan-lines easier because only every other line is displayed on the screen. Progressive shows every line. Using progressive, you should be able to see the scan-lines and as contrast increases too much, the scan-lines will tend to disappear.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The goal like you said was to just pass the signall to the screen without any processing what so ever, the less the better and it looks great!



"Looks great" is the important part. But bear in mind that many video sources have been degraded and need some sharpening to "look great," and so that's what it's for. Use wisely, that's all. (That said, if you like things scratchy-sharp, as I'm sure some folks do, the Sharpness Police will not come knocking at your door . . .)


> Quote:
> I still don't understand why sony would turn on tyhe low pass filters, theres really no need for them it just blurs the images and ruins textures.



I agree, But some folks probably complain about noise or grain on SD RF broadcasts (e.g. analog cable), and this softening also reduces noise. Some folks like a *smooth* picture. Maybe Sony has gotten enough complaints about "noise" that they decided to filter it out even at the expense of fine detail. My solution? A suitable viewing distance for SD video, and I don't see the noise (it's random) but I do see the image detail. Sony obviously has their own priorities!


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you stay with an interlaced signal, you will see the scan-lines easier because only every other line is displayed on the screen.



Not sure what you're driving at here since 480i is up-converted to either 480p (Progressive or Cinemotion DRC), or 960i (Interlaced DRC) for display on these TVs and the scanlines aren't that easy to discern at 960i due to the interlacing... unless maybe you're referring to line-doubling? The scanlines should be relatively easy to make out with either a 480p signal or 480i Progressive/Cinemotion though.


----------



## CrocHunter

It's great now because i can clearly look at a dvd transfer and see any flaws in it with these enhancements off.


like on the fifth element superbit edition, picture was much sharper now but EE was evident more clearly now.


This way the tv won't add any EE and get it from the dvd instead.To compensate for 480i and lower rees sources that needed sharpening i left sharpness in the middle and put SYSM at 1. for good material like dvd 480p and above a setting of SYSM 3 looks best.


Thank you for your discoveries in making my day better with my sony


----------



## BTT

KenTech,


Thanks so much for the info in this thread. I bought a brand new Sony KV24fs120 for my bedroom on closeout at Walmart for $160 (an incredibly low price) last month and, naturally, it had some of the very irritating geometry problems associated with this set and commented on ad nauseum at the Circuit City website. Otherwise, the set was fantastic in every way, and there was no way I was going to return it for the low price I paid.


Until yesterday, I did not even know what a "service menu" was. But last night I made adjustments to the TRAP, PAMP, UPIN, and LPIN settings in both the 4:3 and 16:9 modes and now the geometry problems are probably 95% corrected. Thanks for the clear instructions, without which I would never have attempted these changes, especially since I don't feel like purchasing the service manual for this set. The only keying difference in your general instructions was that the KV24FS120 writes changes merely by hitting the mute button (rather than mute - enter).


I have a US Digital HDTV set top box for receiving over-the-air HDTV signals. I set it to 480i and watch digital programs in the 16:9 mode, which squeezes the 480 lines on the 24" Sony from 14 inches vertically to about 10.5 inches. The resultant increase in picture intensity is amazing, and to my eyes much closer to high definition than standard definition. Prior to last night's adjustments, however, viewing in 16:9 intensified the geometry problems, which are now a thing of the past thanks to your invaluable instructions.


Hope I did not distract too much from your more technical posts. Just felt like I had to say "Thanks!!!"


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BTT* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the clear instructions, without which I would never have attempted these changes, especially since I don't feel like purchasing the service manual for this set. The only keying difference in your general instructions was that the KV24FS120 writes changes merely by hitting the mute button (rather than mute - enter).



You're very, very welcome! I'm quite boggled that what has been posted here in the way of *specific* instructions were of value to you. Who knew they would apply to your set, too? Power to the Paying Customer!


----------



## Reagan

Just wanted to let everyone know that the green spot in the corner of my TV has improved slightly over the last week. Either that, or I'm just getting used to it. Either way, it's good news for me.


-Reagan


----------



## Dazog

unplug your tv andplug it back in


I had this happen to me and the green spot went away.


Fixes it for me everytime.


----------



## Mike2567

I had a green smear on my Sony once. I freaked out! I thought it was permanent!


The first thing to do is remove the cause. It could be a poorly shielded speaker. In my case, it was a desktop decorative gadget with a strong magnet inside. I casually put the gadget on top of the TV not thinking about the magnetic effect!After removing the cause of the problem, I turned the TV off and on at intervals for a few minutes. The click sound you hear when the TV turns on is degaussing (demagnetizing) the tube. This solved most of the problem. It went away completely after 2 or 3 days.


----------



## ramuman

I just picked up a 34XS955 and it has some pincushion distortion and convergence issues. Its just a couple of days old, and I was curious if I called Sony, they could send someone out to fix this in home? This is a noob question, but I am a noob and don't feel comfortable messing around in the service menu quite yet.


It seems Sony should do this under warranty right? Circuit City (where I got it from) doesn't sell it anymore, so an exchange isn't an option.


Thanks


----------



## Hef

I'd like to thank everyone in this thread. I got a 30hs420 about 10 days ago. After reading the thread several times I final went into the SM and am able to change values and such and I have my defaults recorded. I visually adjust my whites with the g & b drvs, but the cuts offs is a little confusing. I went with one of the procedures later in the thread in calculating some of the cut offs where you drive to a yellow. Anyway I seem to be driving towards Kens values so I just threw in his numbers on drvs, cutoffs and the gain. Everything seems pretty good. With Vivid I put Kens P4 image processing values and some of the noise seems to have gone. Standard seems to have the most detail and I use that for TV. Movie and Pro I might switch to for upscaling 1080i DVDs. I may try and figure where Std is getting some of that extra detail and put it in Pro. Although all my modes are converging to be very similar. I leave everything in Neutral color. I'm pretty impressed so far. The strong fleshy tomes are gone. My Gamma pic from Avia shows Std & Movie to be 2.2 and Pro looks to be more like 2.0 and Vivid 1.9. My Gamm for Pro is default 0. Is there some way to boost Pro gamma to something more like 2.2? Thks


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ramuman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just picked up a 34XS955 and it has some pincushion distortion and convergence issues. Its just a couple of days old, and I was curious if I called Sony, they could send someone out to fix this in home? This is a noob question, but I am a noob and don't feel comfortable messing around in the service menu quite yet.
> 
> 
> It seems Sony should do this under warranty right? Circuit City (where I got it from) doesn't sell it anymore, so an exchange isn't an option.
> 
> 
> Thanks



I would definitely call either Sony or CC. I'm not sure which would be the correct one to call first. Let them take their best shot at it before trying it yourself. They owe it to you to correct such problems so early in the game.


Good Luck!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Hef* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My Gamma pic from Avia shows Std & Movie to be 2.2 and Pro looks to be more like 2.0 and Vivid 1.9. My Gamm for Pro is default 0. Is there some way to boost Pro gamma to something more like 2.2?



Trouble is, the factory settings for Standard and Vivid (and a bit with Movie) invoke a *dynamic-contrast* feature in the set, controlled by the settings for 2170P-4/BLK and the following three codes: DCTR (dynamic contrast ?), APED, and DSBO (dynamic sub-brightness offset?) BLK is a combo preset for those next three. Any picture mode that sets BLK at 0 turns OFF any dynamic-contrast activity: Pro on all inputs; Movie on all but a few 480i inputs plus ATSC (tuner) 1080i and 720p; and Standard and Vivid on all inputs. So in Pro mode, your black-level settings (SBRT) and xDRV and xCUT settings are seen as you have set them, and gamma is as you have set. On the other picture modes, the wildcard of dynamic-contrast affects both contrast/brightness and apparent gamma based on the video content.


Gamma settings for GAMM=0 (GAMx = 0) *are* max; on my 36XS955 it is about 2.45 in Pro mode. When I change the three GAMx settings to 3, I get a measured display gamma of about 2.2. I have made sure that dynamic-contrast effects are not working *anywhere,* as I don't want the TV making decisions like that based on the video material. I know "Dynamic Picture Control" serves some purposes for unsophisticated viewers and store demo, but it's not to my liking at all.


Bottom line: Do not trust the results of color, brightness, or gamma tests in anything but Pro mode out-of-the-box. (And caution: your black-level settings, SBRT or the Brightness slider, greatly affect the measurement of gamma. Make sure you have set it correctly in low room lighting.)


Of course, as I have, you can re-program the three other modes to be anything you wish. It takes a long time to go to all of the relevant settings for each mode and change them, but I believe it's worth it. (See article #05 - Customizing Picture Modes, in this thread.) I supposed one could leave one of the modes as-is for uncritical bright-afternoon viewing of kids programs or football, which is what may be intended by Sony. But I have never regretted making Pro and Movie *exactly* alike, then altering gamma for Movie to 2.2 (GAMM=1 and GAMx=3). I use that reduced gamma a lot for dark HD programming and some SD material where it's warranted. (CSI/Miami, Lost come to mind.) If it looks better in Movie mode, that's what I use instead of squinting at the shadows!


Glad you're being successful in improving your set, Hef! It will leave you feeling like you have more control, and you will get it to work like *you* wish it to.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ramuman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Its just a couple of days old, and I was curious if I called Sony, they could send someone out to fix this in home?



Right. Your *service* warranty lasts for 90 days. As justsc said, you have every right to expect reasonably minimal defects out of the box (although *none* is hoping for too much). You could wait a little longer for the set to "settle in" before calling a service tech, maybe a month or two, but I have no proof that significant changes occur during that time -- especially with geometry and convergence.


Tip: Instead of calling any Sony national 800-number, you might mosey over to a high-endish dealership for Sony, be friendly, and ask them for a service-shop referral. Then call the shop directly. You are likely going to get a more-sympathetic response to your wishes from a local person than from a Sony-service call center! I had *no* problem with this 7 days before the warranty expired, and he was able to correct a global up/down red shift. Then he explained the nightmare of doing small local corrections that might throw off the otherwise-excellent convergence elsewhere. (It all interacts; I know this from experience.) Having his superior wisdom in the house for a while was a definite benefit!


----------



## Phunktify

Does anyone know how to correct overscan for 1080i sources only, without it affecting 480p? I have a Sony 30xs955.


----------



## ADU

Ken,


FWIW, I just ran across an updated version of the PNG gamma tutorial posted previously which gives average CRT gamma as 2.2 instead of 2.5.

http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/spec/1...aAppendix.html 


Here's the previous version of the document for comparison which assumed a 2.5 CRT gamma. Note that the "viewing gamma" (now referred to as the "end-to-end exponent") for a dim surround was also changed accordingly from 1.25 to 1.14.


The source of these changes may have been the HP CRT survey mentioned in this document .


These documents are geared a bit more toward web applications though. So I kinda wonder if they might have gotten a little different average gamma readings if they'd sampled home theater CRTs instead of computer monitors.


More discussion re gamma & DVDs: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...71#post5999871


----------



## ADU

Re 2.2 vs. 2.5... I did a test to see what difference black level makes in the gamma reading on my 34XBR800 using the patterns posted earlier in the thread.


If I use RGB=0 as my black reference, then I get a gamma reading of about 2.25.


If I use RGB=16 as my black reference, then I get a gamma reading much closer to 2.5.


Perhaps that's the source of some of the confusion re the average CRT gamma. Maybe the video guys are adjusting for something approximating RGB=16, and the Internet guys are adjusting for RGB=0. I think gamma patterns like the ones posted here are really intended for use with a full 0-255 RGB "computer palette" though, rather than a 16-235 "video palette"* (with black level adjusted lower). And my guess is that HP did their survey using RGB=0 as well, and that's how they arrived at an average CRT gamma of ~2.2.


Ken,


Do you remember which way your black level was set when you took your gamma readings? Was it set for RGB=16, or RGB=0?


*I put "computer palette" and "video palette" in quotes because digital video input devices may use either a 16-235 RGB palette, or a 0-255 RGB palette.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you remember which way your black level was set when you took your gamma readings? Was it set for RGB=16 (~7.5 IRE), or RGB=0?



You are confusing the concept of black level as input-standard (a voltage representing 0 or 7.5 IRE) with black level as observed (set, say, with a PLUGE pattern). As observed, black is black if properly adjusted no matter what the input is that represents black. In my case, I see a slight screen glow for *absolute* digital black, which is an orthodox result from a DVD PLUGE calibration using *my* player. One can confirm with the "digital black" screens on, say, the DVE DVD.


I did PLUGE only once for my DVD input, since there is little variation among high-quality DVDs, and that was with Brightness at 31. That is generally satisfactory.


For broadcast video, tapes, etc., black level is empirical: I adjust Brightness until the observed black level appears correct -- relatively easy. Brightness = 31 is only a starting point! I don't care if the source-black is 0, 7.5, or any other bizarre IRE level (some cable channels are way off!), it ends up *looking* black.


It would be best to refer to screen brightness as percent-white, not IRE. My measurement of gamma occurred after confirming a perfect black level in low-level evening room lighting.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> You are confusing the concept of black level as input-standard (a voltage representing 0 or 7.5 IRE) with black level as observed (set, say, with a PLUGE pattern).



Or perhaps not stating my question very well. What I meant to say was-- what color black were you using as your reference when setting the Brightness/black level on your TV prior to taking your gamma readings, RGB=0 or RGB=16? It's probably irrelevant though since I don't have enough info about the rest of your setup to put that information into a useful context, so just forget I asked.


----------



## GlenC

One thing with that very thick piece of glass on the face of the tube, black levels suffer significantly with bright image content. This is one main reason Ken sees a slight glow with his black level setting. Anything lower and you have major losses in black detail.


The Pluge pattern can be used to set black level, but you should check it with a high APL pattern too.


I agree that there are many video sources that can be improved by tweaking Picture and Brightness, DVD, SD broadcast and HD.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One thing with that very thick piece of glass on the face of the tube, black levels suffer significantly with bright image content. This is one main reason Ken sees a slight glow with his black level setting.



How are these two statements related? The slight glow is generated by the tube, easy to see, since I have a 4:3 tube, and the boundary of a 16:9 display is clearly visible if there is a glow.


The thick, dark glass reduced the brightness of all light emission evenly, bright and dim. Picture and Brightness settings compensate for it completely. That the glass is dyed dark reduces the effect of room light on the tube face, making the shadow detail much clearer. (Room light has to pass thru the glass *twice.*)


If you set "black" to absolute black (no light emitted), the darkest shadow colors are too saturated and shadow detail is lost. The "toe" of the emission curve is also polluted by room light. I have experimentally adjusted black levels up and down with great sources (usually DVDs), and the best results are with video-black for the source chosen set *slightly* above absolute black for the CRT. The resulting picture qiality proves the point: anything else doesn't look right.


----------



## ADU

I agree... sort of. In general though, I don't think you should be able to see a glow from a black screen in your normal ambient lighting. (Unless you have no choice but to use Brightness to compensate for other issues in the CRT's design or adjustment.)


FWIW, if you set your black level with your normal ambient viewing light on, and just try to dial down your reference black till you achieve what appears to your eyes to be a perfect match with a 0-voltage area of the screen* (but no lower), then you should be leaving just enough room for the toe**... something you can probably verify by turning all ambient light off, and _then_ confirming there's a slight glow from the screen.


If there's a detectable glow on a black screen when your ambient light is on, then darker scenes may appear to ride on a pedestal of dark grey.


If colors look excessively saturated with black set this way, then your gamma (or contrast) may need some further tweaking. Just my 2c.

*...or using whatever method your calibration DVD recommends.

**...if there is one.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I use RGB=0 as my black reference, then I get a gamma reading of about 2.25. If I use RGB=16 as my black reference, then I get a gamma reading much closer to 2.5.



This illustrates the difficulty of measuring gamma with any type of screen pattern. The usual pattern juxtaposes two areas: (1) a specific composite "gray" that is composed of black and white in some pattern, say alternating black and white scan lines. (If black is truly black, that is a (linear) 50% brightness relative to the white level). And (2) a real solid gray of calculated density such that for a given gamma, say 2.2, the brightness of the solid gray appears exactly the same (average) brightness as the b/w composite gray. You blur your eyes, if that helps. Raising the black level with the Brightness control screws up the relationship between those two "gray" areas, giving a false reading.


In actual fact, Brightness (black level) setting has *no* effect on real gamma: In practice, the measured brightness response of any CRT display is composed of a fixed-brightness pedestal plus a curve relating video input to additional screen brightness. Changing the pedestal height (adding a screen glow or eliminating it or making it negative) does not change the power factor of the curve: the gamma. But measuring this would require a photometer aimed at the screen and a variable, calibrated video-level generator as input. Then you could draw the graph, separate the curve from the pedestal, and determine the exponent of the curve. *That* would be measureing gamma! But we're stuck with using patterns, and so one has to be careful to calibrate screen-black to a digital-black signal, and the whole measurement must be done in a very dark room. That is how I estimated the inherent max gamma of my set for GAMM=0 at 2.45. It amounts to an interesting tidbit, and one can set other gammas with the GAMx codes (3 yields about 2.2). But I yearn for a true Gamma Control, and *that* would be correctly labeled "Contrast." I set gamma to suit the program material, and the max setting is usually the best, especially with DVDs and SD broadcast. But then there are those few super-contrasty broadcasts that lose a lot in the shadows. Lower gamma to the rescue!


----------



## mezman

I have a 34XS955 and I've been monkeying around for the past few weeks in the service menu trying to make my TV look better and I have a question and a few problems that I can't seem to get rid of.


My question is this: Is it better to make adjustments, both geometry and picture, in the 2170P and 2170D groups, or the MID5 group?


Now, to my problems:

1) I have a stripe that runs down the center of the screen that is slightly brighter then the rest of the screen. It's hard to see unless there is a light, fairly uniform background, but on pictures of the sky or anything like that, it's really noticeable. I can't see any way to smooth that out.


2) The left side of the screen shows a distortion about 1/4 of the way from the edge that looks like it's being pinched together there. It makes horizontally panning images look wavy. I originally thought that it was an issue with the horizontal linearity, but I can't seem to get it smoothed out.


Well, thanks in advance for any assistance anyone can render.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If colors look excessively saturated with black set this way, then your gamma (or contrast) may need some further tweaking.



Or raises the bigger problem of broadcast quality control. The ideal is that correct shadows and correct dark-color should occur with the same black-level adjustment.


But I regularly encounter video that doesn't fit that description: Colors are oversaturated in shadows even though the shadow brightness (black level) is fairly high! Everybody in the scene has orange-red colors under their chins and noses and behind their ears, but there is no real black in the picture -- what to do? I diddle Brightness for a good compromise, then enjoy the show.


I regularly see meticulously set up video from the big three networks on their HD programming -- set black level to a real black, and the results are just about perfect. But there's a lot that doesn't conform.


My TV is calibrated for Brightness = 31 and Color = 31 to be a best-possible average. For DVDs it's perfect. Then I watch an ABC program called Brat Camp and can't get black levels right until I jack Brightness to 36. Color is fine. Later, the local ABC news requires me to set Brightness back to 31.


On a Friday evening I watch some PBS half-hour news programs, and I have to crank Brightness down to 25 and Color to (get this) 21 for a reasonable picture! Why is PBS transmitting 150% chroma?? Who is minding the store? Am I worried about gamma? Hah!


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This illustrates the difficulty of measuring gamma with any type of screen pattern. The usual pattern juxtaposes two areas: (1) a specific composite "gray" that is composed of black and white in some pattern, say alternating black and white scan lines. (If black is truly black, that is a (linear) 50% brightness relative to the white level). And (2) a real solid gray of calculated density such that for a given gamma, say 2.2, the brightness of the solid gray appears exactly the same (average) brightness as the b/w composite gray. You blur your eyes, if that helps. Raising the black level with the Brightness control screws up the relationship between those two "gray" areas, giving a false reading.



That might explain some of the difference in readings we're getting, because I set my black level with the ambient light _on_ as described in my last post, prior to taking my measurements. If I had set the black level lower in an attempt to match the CRT's "absolute black" then it's quite possible I might have gotten a little higher reading than 2.25... but (as I rethink it) not necessarily a more accurate one.


You're more likely to get an incorrect reading from these gamma patterns if your Brightness is set too low than if it's set too high. So for the time being, I'll still stand by my 2.25 as the more accurate measurement of my CRT's true gamma.


If Brightness/black level is set so low that the darkest RGB values (ie, the black lines) in the gamma pattern become truncated (...something which might occur if you're using RGB=16* as your black reference, and/or trying to adjust black level in total darkness...), then the relationships between the swatches and B&W lines breaks down and the gamma reading becomes unreliable.


If Brightness/black level is set higher, then the swatches and lines should still maintain their brightness relationships and give you a pretty accurate reading, because they are all increased in brightness by the same amount.

*Just to clarify, I'm not trying to advocate here that people should use RGB=0 for their _regular video setup_, instead of RGB=16. Whether you use RGB=16 or RGB=0 (or some other black reference) in setting up your display for proper viewing depends entirely on the video source. My point here is that using RGB=16 as your black reference may simply yield an inaccurately higher reading from gamma measurement patterns which were designed with a full 0-255 computer monitor palette in mind.


----------



## GlenC

My comment was more to the effect the glass has on setting black levels with a mid or high (50%) APL. CRT is known for the best blacks, however the direct view CRTs, usually have the poorest ANSI contrast ratio performance of all. The thicker the front glass, the larger the affected area of internal light reflection. The light that reflects back at an angle from the front surface of the glass has more glass to travel through spreading the area. Any light source that hits a portion of the phosphor that is not the direct image, hurts black levels.


ABC is terrible about making their HD programs too dark.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The thicker the front glass, the larger the affected area of internal light reflection. . . . Any light source that hits a portion of the phosphor that is not the direct image, hurts black levels.



Oh, agreed. My black-level measurements are not made with bright material present. Program fade-outs give me an opportunity to see the edge of the 16:9 area relative to the unscanned area of the tube. Absent that, with a little practice, one can make decent judgements based on the appearance of the video. Either tow low or too high a black level will appear inferior to a satisfactory setting.


----------



## Hef

Couple of questions:


1) I assume it's ok to have a little bit of a light (glow) emmit from the tube even if you have your source, let's say DVD player, off? I assume so.


2) My DVD player is upscaling to 1080i and I believe the TV is using the HD color matrix (SMPTE 296M), but my Zenith is using the SD color matrix (SMPTE 170M). I can go into the CXA2171 menu and change the MTRX from 1 to 0 and that will treat 1080i sources with the SD color matrix (someone found this out with their Sony TV), but it also treats C6 that way too and I have a HDTV tuner and it uses the HD color matrix. The differences seem subtle, but does anyone know a SM item that might correct this for my C5 1080i source only? TIA


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> 1) I assume it's ok to have a little bit of a light (glow) emmit from the tube even if you have your source, let's say DVD player, off? I assume so.



If you turn all your ambient light off, and wait till your eyes adjust to the dark, then yes, you probably should see a slight glow from scanned areas (to borrow Ken's term) of the screen, even with a totally black picture. You may even see a slight glow from unscanned/0-voltage areas. IMO though you should not really be able to see a detectable difference in black between the scanned and unscanned areas with your ambient light on. Just my 2c. YMMV. The "pedestal of grey" may be your best gauge though. If blacks in dark scenes look more like a very dark grey than black, then your Brightness may be a little too high. Some TVs (especially ones with badly adjusted grey scales) may lose too much shadow detail set this way though.


> Quote:
> 2) My DVD player is upscaling to 1080i and I believe the TV is using the HD color matrix (SMPTE 296M), but my Zenith is using the SD color matrix (SMPTE 170M). I can go into the CXA2171 menu and change the MTRX from 1 to 0 and that will treat 1080i sources with the SD color matrix (someone found this out with their Sony TV), but it also treats C6 that way too and I have a HDTV tuner and it uses the HD color matrix. The differences seem subtle, but does anyone know a SM item that might correct this for my C5 1080i source only? TIA



That's an excellent question, Hef. This is an issue that I have only recently begun to delve into a bit myself, so take anything I have to say on this subject with a very large grain of salt... but I guess the developing consensus is that the player or video input device should make the necessary color adjustment when outputting 720p/1080i, to accomodate the HD color space on the TV.


I don't think I've run across an input level adjustment for the HD color space on my 34XBR800 so far, but that doesn't mean that there isn't one hidden somewhere else in the various codes. If noone else has an idea on this, then Sony's Non-Authorized Service Tech Support might be able to give a more definitive answer.


Since you brought the issue of different color spaces up...


***A word of advice regarding CXA2171/MTRX-- On my 34XBR800, this item does not work like most of the other SM items with respect to saving and recalling from memory. It appears to be one of a handful of settings which are memory-independent.***


In addition, I wouldn't be surprised if the CXA2171/CBGN, CRGN, YGN offsets were designed expressly for the purpose of making minor adjustments to color decoding between the SD and HD color matrices. (This is something we touched on a bit earlier in the thread.)


I'm not sure what the original MTRX setting was on my TV anymore, but somehow it also ended up at 0


If you can input color bars or a pattern like this at 33.75khz (1080i or 540p), then you can clearly see the changes in color decoding between the different MTRX settings by switching different color guns on and off with 2170P-2/RGBS.


Is there any chance Zenith might release a firmware update to correct any potential color issues on their 720p/1080i output?


----------



## ADU

Just thought of a possibility re the MTRX setting...


You guys with newer Sonys have an advanced "Monitor" and "Default" display mode on your TV which can store different color decoder settings (which my 34XBR800 can't). So maybe those two advanced display modes can store different HD color matrices (MTRX) as well. Might be worth a try anyway.

_[Edit: based on later info in the thread, this probably wouldn't be possible anwyay, since MTRX seems to work transparently/automatically outside the SM, rather than actually being user-defineable control.]_


----------



## Hef




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just thought of a possibility re the MTRX setting...
> 
> 
> You guys with newer Sonys have an advanced "Monitor" and "Default" display mode on your TV which can store different color decoder settings (which my 34XBR800 can't). So maybe those two advanced display modes can store different HD color matrices (MTRX) as well. Might be worth a try anyway.



No Zenith is no longer doing firmware upgrades on this player. And on your quote above is the Advanced Monitor something in the service menu or the user menu? I'm not sure what or if I have this on my 30HS420 and where it is.


----------



## ADU

I believe it should be somewhere in the User Menu... if the 30HS420 has it. Somewhere perhaps under Advanced Video options. You should be able to switch between the two modes without having to go into the SM.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ***A word of advice regarding CXA2171/MTRX-- On my TV, this item does not work like most of the other SM items with respect to saving and recalling from memory.



I haven't tested this myself, but I will! Brings to mind my previous experience with a setting in the AUDIO group that survives power-off-on.


BUT . . . not an unplug-plug. It would be interesting to see if changes to the 2171 group survive unplugging the set. Sony's service manual actually states that, to test if your settings are being retained, unplug the set, wait a few seconds, then replug. Implies that Sony acknowledges this memory-limbo.


----------



## Hef

Nope quess i don't have it. Oh well.


----------



## ADU

Do you have any Advanced Video options at all? (Maybe those aren't supported on the HS420 line.)


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kentech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It would be interesting to see if changes to the 2171 group survive unplugging the set. Sony's service manual actually states that, to test if your settings are being retained, unplug the set, wait a few seconds, then replug. Implies that Sony acknowledges this memory-limbo.



MTRX may be the only item in the CXA2171 (CXA2151 on my model) group that behaves this way though. CBGN, CRGN, YGN at least seem to behave normally with respect to saving/recalling from memory.


A couple links on color space:
http://videoessentials.com/PCCoordinates.php 
http://videoessentials.com/res_phosphors.php


----------



## Bebpo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So here's the code sequence to enter the service menu: "DISPLAY" "5" "VOLUME+" "POWER".
> 
> 
> To navigate the service menu use the 1 and 4 keys, to change the values use the 3 and 6 keys.
> 
> 
> To save a value setting press "MUTING" then "ENTER", the words "WRITE" will be displayed in red if it got saved.To exit the service menu just simply turn your tv off.



I'm pressing this code sequence to enter the service menu on my xbr960 and nothing is happening. Is there a trick to doing this?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Once you have a manual, there's also a 900 number that can be called for Non-Authorized Service Tech Support. It costs $3/min, with a $20 minimum for each call. According to Sony, you must have a service manual in front of you to use this service....



Does anyone have, and will share this number?


----------



## ADU

I don't have the 900 number, but you can get information about the service by contacting Sony's Direct Accessories and Parts.


Phone #: 1-800-488-SONY

Web: http://servicesales.sel.sony.com/web/contact_us.jsp


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> I'm pressing this code sequence to enter the service menu on my xbr960 and nothing is happening. Is there a trick to doing this?



Are you starting with the TV off? Please be careful in there btw.


----------



## Bebpo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you starting with the TV off? Please be careful in there btw.



Thanks I was trying to do it while the tv was on.


Hopefully I won't screw anything up in there. I'm horribly clumsy but I just want to change a single digit so that I can watch 480p through the HDMI input. Currently I can't watch 4:3 video files on the set as my Oppo dvd player stretches them and there is no way to squeeze them back at the 720p and 1080i settings on the tv. So I need to use 480p so the tv can squeeze the videos back to their proper aspect ration :\\


I'd also like to move the overscan slightly upwards since the subtitles on avi files tend to get cut off in the overscan at the bottom...but like I said, I'm clumsy so I'll skip touching any of this stuff and just change the 1 digit to get a working 480p picture ^^;


----------



## ptchristensen

I'm still fiddeling with the geometry...


Question: In service mode inputting a 480i signal, the "Normal" screen mode is horisontally stretched to look like a letterbox movie format, with black bands on top and bottom. The other modes: Full, Wide Zoom and Zoom, looks fine.


In the second line of the service menu screen it reads "vc 960i". This doesn't look right, but since I cannot change this, I cannot remember what it should be. Could someone please let me know?


I know I can test the different modes in CXA2170P-4 item 20 IDSW. My screen looks exactly as the setting 4 (VC 960i). So setting 0 and 4 looks the same.


Does any of you have an idea what is wrong and how I can get back to the normal "Normal" setting on 480i input?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm still fiddeling with the geometry...
> 
> Does any of you have an idea what is wrong and how I can get back to the normal "Normal" setting on 480i input?



Found it: 2170D-1, 11, ZOOM, was set to 1 on "480i Normal"


----------



## ptchristensen

I have now read the service manual for my XBR960 several times and I have tinkered, tested, reset and reset again, till I'm blue in my face...!


There are simply words and test scenarios I do not understand - so here I go:


1) Chapter 2-8 and 2-9 mentions NTSC (DRC) Full mode. What kind of signal is that? I know that Full mode is the 'Screen Mode" Full, but what is a NTSC (DRC) signal?


2) If the initial geometry is done in Full mode, how do I set the size of a normal 480 signal. I have tried the MIDI-1 settings, but they do not seem to be separating the normal mode from the full mode i 480?


3) 2170D-3, 4 and 5. What is the difference between Vcomp, Expansion Zoom and Zoom-V?


I promise that I will post all my trials and tribulations with the geometry as soon as I have a feeling that I understand it, and isn't just lucky to sometimes hit a good result.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> 1) Chapter 2-8 and 2-9 mentions NTSC (DRC) Full mode. What kind of signal is that? I know that Full mode is the 'Screen Mode" Full, but what is a NTSC (DRC) signal?



Per Sony, Digital Reality Creation (DRC) Multifunction V1 Unlike conventional line doublers, the DRC Multifunction feature replaces the signal's NTSC waveform with near-HD equivalent by digital mapping processing. The DRC Palette option lets you customize the level of detail (Reality) and smoothness (Clarity) to create a customized picture that is optimized for signal quality, viewing conditions and personal preference. As we discussed earlier in this thread (#245), the video signal gets processed in different ways, depending on the source. All Composite and S-video 480i signals are all processed through the DRC processor. A NTSC format signal, as I understand, is a max 480i / 60Hz video signal.



> Quote:
> 2) If the initial geometry is done in Full mode, how do I set the size of a normal 480 signal. I have tried the MIDI-1 settings, but they do not seem to be separating the normal mode from the full mode i 480?



Yes, the initial geometry is done in MIDI-1 Full mode, then for the Normal/Other mode, use MIDI-2 #0,1,2,3


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ptchristensen*
1) Chapter 2-8 and 2-9 mentions NTSC (DRC) Full mode. What kind of signal is that? I know that Full mode is the 'Screen Mode" Full, but what is a NTSC (DRC) signal?
On my 4:3 set, I simply tune in a broadcast station, since that goes thru the DRC signal-path within the set. But if you do this, isn't it displayed with pillarboxes? So I'm not sure how to help because I don't know the ins and outs of how the 16:9 sets deal with ordinary SD video.


I have thought that your set generates a 4:3 synthetic "window" and displays 4:3 material within that, and some of the MID1-3 codes deal with that window. But that doesn't help you deal with the raster at the tube's edges.


I think what you need to do is get a *normal* signal on-screen (not zoomed) that fills the width of the screen, then make the listed adjustments. I think an anamorphic-enhanced DVD would likely do just fine. The HBLK = 0 kills the side-blanking, and AGNG collapses the raster a bit so you can see the edges. (Maybe the HBLK = 0 exposes a pillarboxed raster all the way to the edges.) Then you are (1) centering the video on the best part of the raster (it's gamy at the edges), then (2) centering *that* on the tube. Finally, you replace the blanking with HBLK = 1. That's how it worked on my 4:3 tube; I just wonder how this one set of instructions deals with both tube profiles. Sorry to be so vague.


Vcomp, Expansion Zoom and Zoom-V stand for vertically-compressed (for 4:3 tubes in 16:9 mode), 4:3 expanded to fill the width on your 16:9 set, and vertically-zoomed (absent on your set?). You can temporarily simulate (force) these scan modes with 2170P-4/IDSW, where 1-7 chooses all of the available scan modes and labels them on-screen. E.g. "VC 960i" means vertically-compressed 960 lines, interlaced. For your 16:9 set, one of the ID codes programs your set to behave differently from mine for the different scan modes; I think it's ID7 = 19 that does it.


I can only speculate on your question #2, so I won't say anything just now. Sorry. If it's any help, the Excel spreadsheet of the commands that's available (attached) shows descriptions for MID2 codes as "Horizontal/vertical position/size for 4:3 pattern," which I think is meant for you, not me.

 

34XBR910 Service Menu vADR.zip 57.740234375k . file


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, the initial geometry is done in MIDI-1 Full mode, then for the Normal/Other mode, use MIDI-2 #0,1,2,3



I need more assistance from the experts...!


Here is what I know, so far:

- "Full" with 480i or 480p input is a 4:3 signal that is stretched to fill the 16:9 screen.

- "Normal" with 480i or 480p input should be a 4:3 signal with black bars on the sides.

- "Full" with 1080i input is the standard 16:9 size.


So the Service Manual says to start with a "Full" DCR signal, which we have concluded must be a stretched 480i signal. Adjust using the 2170D-1 and 2 settings. When this is done you actually also have a perfect 1080i geometry, since the width and height of a "Full" (stretched) 480 signal is the same as a "Full" 1080i signal.


Now how do I create the "Normal" sized 480 geometry without effecting both the "Normal" 1080i geometry and the "Full" 480 geometry.


I cannot use MID1, 0-3 since they are shared.

I cannot use MID1, 8 and 10 since they are shared.

I cannot use MID2, 0-3 because they can only be reduced to about 90% of the screen size, without loosing sync, and

I cannot use MID3, 0-3 since they do not accept input on a 480 signal.


So as you see I'm lost...!

Even if most of what I watch is in either 1080i or 480p(Full) from the DVD, it would still be nice to also be able to watch unstretched 480i.


I still have a nasty feeling that there is a single setting somewhere, that when set will automatically NOT stretch 480 if the screen mode is "Normal".


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I still have a nasty feeling that there is a single setting somewhere, that when set will automatically NOT stretch 480 if the screen mode is "Normal".




With the help from Clen and Ken I found it, it was an ID setting ID7, that should be 19. Which identifies the TV as a KD-34XBR960.


Immediately the 480 signal was correct...thanks...!


----------



## ptchristensen

When I play a 2:35 DVD on my 16:9 screen in Full mode, I get a thin flickering scan line between the movie top and the top black bar.


Which setting do I use to adjust for this line?


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I play a 2:35 DVD on my 16:9 screen in Full mode, I get a thin flickering scan line between the movie top and the top black bar.
> 
> 
> Which setting do I use to adjust for this line?



I am not sure you will be able to remove it. The vertical height is set for the screen edge, not the picture edge. It must be coming from your DVD player. Do you see the same thing when watching any HD movies that are more than 1.78:1?


----------



## T_Shift

Hi all...


Newbie here....I have owned a variety of Trinitrons over the years and I haven't found any other brand that gives the same level of detail as Sonys and they were never calibrated. You know what I mean, grass that doesn't look like astro turf, the weave of the fabric on someone's suit, the "pancake" on newscaster's faces- you can actually see the texture of the powder!! You know, _natural_!


Anyway, bought a 34hs420 recently and I hate to say it but, it just doesn't look like a Sony. Good enough picture for sure but not what I was expecting.


For me, a Sony means _detail, texture, natural_. I'm prepared to invest time in the SM, but it's a shame these qualities aren't there out of the box like my other sets. Is this how they are now?


Thanks and glad to be aboard!


T.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *T_Shift* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ]Thanks and glad to be aboard!



You're welcome! But please, repeat after me: "I will never again post in yellow text." (Some of us have white or gray backgrounds, hello! Black is really best.)


----------



## KrammuelSTEog

I have went though the calibration forums in here and mostly they speak of color and grey levels. I would like to fix my geometry before I worry about the color settings.

The biggest problem I seem to have is when I bought the TV on component inputs the screen was not centered, so I called sony and they gave me the local repair shop. After he had come out the geometry was still not right ( he didn't seem to really care to fix it the way i wanted it ). since then I have been trying to fix it with not much luck. I did get the test patterns that KENTECH put on here ( that did help ). but in all the times of getting into service mode I may some of the settings way off









Sorry if this is asking allot but the site that was recommended to get the codes from don't have my model and I am not sure if another model is the same?

Any info would help, PLZ!!!


This is for the KV-34XBR800

Sry if I should have post here???


----------



## KrammuelSTEog

IM newbie here and read the what KENTECH said about text color and got confused with the black background shows all text in yellow


----------



## T_Shift




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You're welcome! But please, repeat after me: "I will never again post in yellow text." (Some of us have white or gray backgrounds, hello! Black is really best.)



My apologies, but as KrammuelSTEog said, I see all text in yellow on grey and thought that was what to do. Didn't see any indication anywhere on how the forum formats/displays itself.


Anyway, any ideas on my original post?



T.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *T_Shift* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My apologies, but as KrammuelSTEog said, I see all text in yellow on grey and thought that was what to do. Didn't see any indication anywhere on how the forum formats/displays itself.
> 
> 
> Anyway, any ideas on my original post?
> 
> 
> 
> T.



I have the KV-34HS420, and it looks like a Sony to me. Granted, the XS/XBR series sets have greater resolution, but I would never rate the HS series as non-Sony. Are you comparing HD to non-HD sets?


If you haven't yet purchased and used the Avia or DVE calibration disks, by all means, do so. And yes, you can get much more bang for your buck, on the HS sets, with the right SM adjustments.


----------



## CrocHunter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *T_Shift* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi all...
> 
> 
> Newbie here....I have owned a variety of Trinitrons over the years and I haven't found any other brand that gives the same level of detail as Sonys and they were never calibrated. You know what I mean, grass that doesn't look like astro turf, the weave of the fabric on someone's suit, the "pancake" on newscaster's faces- you can actually see the texture of the powder!! You know, _natural_!
> 
> 
> Anyway, bought a 34hs420 recently and I hate to say it but, it just doesn't look like a Sony. Good enough picture for sure but not what I was expecting.
> 
> 
> For me, a Sony means _detail, texture, natural_. I'm prepared to invest time in the SM, but it's a shame these qualities aren't there out of the box like my other sets. Is this how they are now?
> 
> 
> Thanks and glad to be aboard!
> 
> 
> T.



Well if you already know how to enter the service menu then good,if not,don't fret at the beggining of this thread it tells you how.


Now if you want to get the most natural,sharpest picture possible without any processing to the image heres what is to be done.Our goal is to just pass the signal to the screen, and have nothing affect the image quality, just go from point A to B thank you.


Here are the serivce menu settings to get rid of these obtrusive edge enhancements that mar the image.


SYSM set this to 3, it is input and resolution dependant so you have to set it for each input and resolution.


QPDC adjusts this to the best focus in the middle of the screen overall.


of coarse you are using a calibration disc with test patterns to do this properly right?


Also leave it in PRO mode and keep the sharpness in the middle,don't worry instead of adjusting sharpness, everything is adjusted in the service menu instead.


Make sure clear edge is off in the user menu,and turn VM-VML to 0 .


same with VMLV-VMDL turn them to 0


SHOF make sure that's at 0 as well


Under MID 5 section turn MHLY-MVCE to 0, this is resolution dependant and input dependant,so adjust it for each input and resolution,ex.480i-1080i


and there you have it!


Sony quality, in it's purest form, no enhancements what so ever.


Now that's just for sharpness, if you want better colors and getting rid of red push adjust RYR-RYB with the red color filters with AVIA or DVE and GYR-GYB with the green color filters.Use Neutral color temp since that is the best color temperature.


then once done you can adjust color to what ever setting you like in the user menu.Mines at 29 and my settings are RYR=15,RYB=15, GYR=6, GYB=3


For adjusting black level properly so you see shadow detail, because these sony sets are none to hide it because of their too black, black levels.


First set brightness to the middle setting and leave it there, no need to adjust it since we are adjusting it in the service menu.


First find your input with the highest black level( the one with the smokiest blacks) then from there adjust SBRT using the pluge pattern in either AVIA or DVE use the instructions that tell you with the disc.


SBRT is a global setting as well as

RYR-GYB so once it's set it's set for all inputs.


Once you have set the input with the highest black level, in my case Video1-4 composite and S-video inputs, then set all the other inputs to match it in black level using UBOF in the service menu.UBOF is input and resolution dependant so you will have to adjust it for each input and resolution.


And there you have it, perfection! only thiong missing is to do geometry touch up if you have to or convergance and greyscale which i would'nt touch since you need the proper equipment that an ISF guy has.


At least you save yourself an ISF calibration since you pretty much did what they were going to do in the service menu anyways, minus greyscale and convergance.


Here are my picture settings that i have gooten after calibration and are my permanent settings that i like,feel free to try them:


PRO Mode

Contrast: 45

Brightness: 31 middle setting

Tint: middle setting

Color: 29

Sharpness: 31 middle setting.

Color temp: Neutral

Clear edge : Off

DRC: Interlaced


----------



## MaxDam77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With the help from Clen and Ken I found it, it was an ID setting ID7, that should be 19. Which identifies the TV as a KD-34XBR960.
> 
> 
> Immediately the 480 signal was correct...thanks...!



Wow, I'll check that out, because I have the problem that in 480p, in full it takes the full size of the screen but in 480i, I miss a little of the right and left side of the screen.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MaxDam77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow, I'll check that out, because I have the problem that in 480p, in full it takes the full size of the screen but in 480i, I miss a little of the right and left side of the screen.



Actually I found out that there is an error in the Service Manual. It says 19 in ID7 for 34XBR960, and it does size 480i correctly. However my Harmony remote stopped working and the Index and Twin View also stopped working. I found an older version of the Service Manual, and that one said 25.


When I changed ID7 to 25 everything started working again and I still had the correct 480i geometry.


----------



## MaxDam77

Great, Thanks for the tip! I will let you know if it worked out.


----------



## T_Shift




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> *03 - COLOR CALIBRATION AND BLACK LEVEL*
> 
> 
> 
> "What makes sense to me: Set a correct color temperature of 6500K or White Cloud (my preference) "
> 
> 
> "But Nature provides a nearly-perfect source for comparison: mid-day white clouds illuminated from the front by sunlight (about 6100K), seen thru an open window or screen, NOT glass."




My set is in the basement without a clear view of the sky. However, my computer monitor can be variably adjusted for temperature. If I display a white screen, could I use it for reference? 6100K, 6500K etc..


T.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *T_Shift* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My set is in the basement without a clear view of the sky. However, my computer monitor can be variably adjusted for temperature. If I display a white screen, could I use it for reference? 6100K, 6500K etc.



Sure, but that makes one risky assumption: that the monitor's color-temp settings are anywhere near accurate. I just set up a 19" LaCie monitor for a client. I had a monitor calibrator, but I checked the "native" settings first, available thru the monitor's front-panel buttons. Result: too cold, and somewhat greenish. The calibrator resulted in a very neutral 6500K and great grayscale, nothing like the front-panel settings.


If you can mooch a monitor calibrator from someone you know who does graphic arts or color prepress (otherwise they cost $200-350), you can set up a good 6500K color profile for your monitor/computer combo, then use that as a secondary standard. Process takes only a few minutes and the software is self-instructing. (I have both a Monaco and a LaCie Blue Eye.) I have a small plastic-cased iMac from several years ago, and it makes a great portable color source, as the calibrators don't work on a TV monitor. (The software can't control the TV.)


I have compared more than one calibrated computer monitor with the "cloud" standard. It really is almost dead-on, the bright sunlighted parts being a little warm, the bottoms and dark-gray parts a little cool. But your *eye* gets it, and the TV really looks off-color if it's out of whack. But I know puffy dense clouds are a rare commodity in some seasons, and for some installations it's just impossible.


----------



## T_Shift

BTW KenTech, didn't I see a post of yours with a link to a compilation of your articles and posts? If so, I can't seem to get back to it. Or, maybe I didn't...


T.


----------



## KrammuelSTEog

I just like to say that have found almost all the info I need for the XBR800 and would just like to say *THANK YOU (everyone)* for all the info provided in these forums.

SRY!! if I spoke out of line. Just got alittle frustrated, but happier now


----------



## KrammuelSTEog











Funny thing I like to mention about when I called their tech support on my XBR.

The so called tech I talked to wasn't to knowledgable. I called for the slight offset of the picture when on the RGB input and "her" answer was to go into the user menu in screen or setup tabs there should be an adjustment for horizonal position







. When I told her that there is no such adjustment she replied "that was strange", she thought there was







LOL!!!

Just thought I would throw that in here


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *T_Shift* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW KenTech, didn't I see a post of yours with a link to a compilation of your articles and posts? If so, I can't seem to get back to it. Or, maybe I didn't...



Sorry, you didn't. I think I will do this, however; but first I have to carefully read over each article and make necessary revisions. As my signature says, We all get smart slowly. I have gotten a bit wiser in the last few months, and I need to tweak a few details in the articles.


Another matter is that a very thoughtful member of this forum (ptchristensen) has clued me in to a website-posted service manual for the earlier KD-34XBR2 model of HD CRT-TV. Lo and behold, the service codes are similar to those for the XS and XBR units -- except that (I can barely contain myself!) there are *descriptions* for most of the codes. Some are cryptic, many really important ones understandable. So I now have to revisit my articles to see if I have substantially misjudged the purposes of some of the codes. I'm sure certain mysteries will be solved for those, nutty like me, who care. The URL follows. Fair warning: It's a 22MB PDF document. You'll need to right-click it and save to your hard drive.

https://www.vancebaldwin.com/shop/re...N/KD34XBR2.pdf


----------



## KrammuelSTEog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry, you didn't. I think I will do this, however; but first I have to carefully read over each article and make necessary revisions. As my signature says, We all get smart slowly. I have gotten a bit wiser in the last few months, and I need to tweak a few details in the articles.
> 
> 
> Another matter is that a very thoughtful member of this forum (ptchristensen) has clued me in to a website-posted service manual for the earlier KD-34XBR2 model of HD CRT-TV. Lo and behold, the service codes are similar to those for the XS and XBR units -- except that (I can barely contain myself!) there are *descriptions* for most of the codes. Some are cryptic, many really important ones understandable. So I now have to revisit my articles to see if I have substantially misjudged the purposes of some of the codes. I'm sure certain mysteries will be solved for those, nutty like me, who care. The URL follows. Fair warning: It's a 22MB PDF document. You'll need to right-click it and save to your hard drive.
> 
> https://www.vancebaldwin.com/shop/re...N/KD34XBR2.pdf



do you know if the kd-34xbr2 is simular to the kv-34xbr800, or are all the xbr models basically the same??


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KrammuelSTEog* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> do you know if the kd-34xbr2 is simular to the kv-34xbr800, or are all the xbr models basically the same??



No, they're not. But there are enough overlaps that one can deduce quite a bit of useful information from other service manuals. My interest in that earlier manual was to see the descriptions of certain codes that Sony still uses. But it also shows quite a few codes that are not used by the more recent XS955 and XBR960 sets, and those sets (which have identical chassis designs, except for different CRTs and a few extra feature-modules in the XBR) use entirely new codes not in the previous sets. Sony doesn't start over from scratch each time, but the sets *evolve.*


FYI, the service manual for the 40XBR800 *is* posted somewhere, but darned if I can remember where.


----------



## KrammuelSTEog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FYI, the service manual for the 40XBR800 *is* posted somewhere, but darned if I can remember where.



TY Kentech. I will search for.


----------



## T_Shift




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry, you didn't. I think I will do this, however; but first I have to carefully read over each article and make necessary revisions. As my signature says, We all get smart slowly. I have gotten a bit wiser in the last few months, and I need to tweak a few details in the articles.
> 
> 
> Another matter is that a very thoughtful member of this forum (ptchristensen) has clued me in to a website-posted service manual for the earlier KD-34XBR2 model of HD CRT-TV. Lo and behold, the service codes are similar to those for the XS and XBR units -- except that (I can barely contain myself!) there are *descriptions* for most of the codes. Some are cryptic, many really important ones understandable. So I now have to revisit my articles to see if I have substantially misjudged the purposes of some of the codes. I'm sure certain mysteries will be solved for those, nutty like me, who care. The URL follows. Fair warning: It's a 22MB PDF document. You'll need to right-click it and save to your hard drive.




No sweat, just a moment of laziness. I'll work my way through them just the same, very informative.


Similarly, the service manual is great, very interesting reading! I hope alot of it will pertain to my 34hs420.


Thanks,

T.


----------



## todd95008




KenTech said:


> the service codes are similar to those for the XS and XBR units -- except that (I can barely contain myself!) there are *descriptions* for most of the codes. Some are cryptic, many really important ones understandable. So I now have to revisit my articles to see if I have substantially misjudged the purposes of some of the codes. I'm sure certain mysteries will be solved for those, nutty like me, who care. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Very interesting descriptions of the codes !!
> 
> It will be illuminating to see how many of us have misjudged those codes ??
> 
> Too bad Sony did/does not do this with the service manuals for newer sets !!
> 
> 
> On another subject. has anyone ever run across a service code to adjust picture level (white level) for 4:3 sets when in V-comp mode ?
> 
> 
> 
> Todd


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> has anyone ever run across a service code to adjust picture level (white level) for 4:3 sets when in V-comp mode?



Not yet. I'll check tomorrow the listing in the vicinity of the JUMP command (which enables the 480i auto-switch to V-Comp). I'll bet there isn't one.


Changes in parameters (such as white level) are triggered by a change in (a) signal class, e.g. Tuner vs S-Video vs Component, etc; (b) input video mode, e.g. 480i, 480p, 1080i, etc; or (c) some user choice, e.g. picture mode, VM level, etc. Trouble is, full-screen DVD and anamorphic (v-comp) DVD are still both 480i and the same input, and 16:9 v-comp is a choice made by the TV in response to the presence of the "anamorphic flag" in the signal. That's if you are trying to compensate for the increased brightness of the v-comp display of DVDs.


For signals that are always v-comp, such as HDTV broadcasts, I think there is a way to tone down the white level (luminance gain) for those video types. I'll check it out.


----------



## jjmilo

Kentech

The manual you provided for the 34XBR2 is indeed very descriptive. I have owned the service manuals for the following units 32XBR200, 36XBR400, and the 34XBR910. I have noticed a decrease in detail , description and size in the more recent manuals. Perhaps Sony realizes that these manuals are no longer the domain of "Service Techs".

I did have a question regarding the Picture Size and Geometry Adjustments for Full Mode Adjustment on page 15 and 16 of the manual you provided. The VSIZ and HSIZ are set to 11.6 and 15.6 boxes respectively for the monoscope pattern. This comes out to a 4:3 ratio and not the 16:9 ratio you would expect for full widescreen mode even though the individual boxes look to have the 16:9 ratio. It this a monoscope pattern thing ?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjmilo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I did have a question regarding the Picture Size and Geometry Adjustments for Full Mode Adjustment on page 15 and 16 of the manual you provided. The VSIZ and HSIZ are set to 11.6 and 15.6 boxes respectively for the monoscope pattern. This comes out to a 4:3 ratio and not the 16:9 ratio you would expect for full widescreen mode even though the individual boxes look to have the 16:9 ratio. It this a monoscope pattern thing ?



I have also read a lot of different service manuals and I have not yet read one where the height and width fit my 34XBR960. I must be because they cover several screen sizes in each service manual.


Here is what I did: Bought a plastic ruler, 35 inch. Measured my screen and did the math. You need to find and mark the center and the width of the black bars on 480. I mark them using some colored Post-it flags.


Then you can start aligning the different formats.


----------



## jjmilo

ptchristensen

My main concern was the aspect ratio used with the monoscope pattern as described in the 34XBR2 manual on page 15 and 16. I was expecting a 16:9 ratio yet the vertical and horizontal box count yielded a 4:3 ratio.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjmilo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My main concern was the aspect ratio used with the monoscope pattern as described in the 34XBR2 manual on page 15 and 16. I was expecting a 16:9 ratio yet the vertical and horizontal box count yielded a 4:3 ratio.



You are right, but Full mode IS a stretched 4:3 signal on a 480 signal. In the later versions of the Sony service manuals they say that you start with a Full 480 DCS signal.


What is strange to me is that the boxes are stretched but the circles are not...?


----------



## jjmilo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You are right, but Full mode IS a stretched 4:3 signal on a 480 signal. In the later versions of the Sony service manuals they say that you start with a Full 480 DCS signal.
> 
> 
> What is strange to me is that the boxes are stretched but the circles are not...?



Yes as I stated in an earlier post the individual boxes seem to have a 16:9 aspect ratio and yet as you point out the circles appear perfectly round.


----------



## hualon

I'm really new with Sony TVs and I'm having a hard time deciphering the service manual for my 30HS420.


I have a 720p computer video source coming in on the HDMI input (Input 7) at Full aspect ratio. The image appears great except for a vibrating top and the image not fitting on the screen properly.


I have read that I need to get into MID4 to adjust values for overscan except my 30HS420 doesn't HAVE a MID4. I don't think that I should adjust the horizontal and vertical stretching until I fix the overscan, right? Otherwise, I won't be fixing my vibrating top bar problem.


The bottom line:


How do I manipulate the service menu on my 30HS420 CRT to display a 1280x720 computer signal without overscan on the HDMI input 7 without a MID4 to adjust?


Thanks,

J


----------



## 92gli

I just got a 36xs955 the other day and I'm really relieved to have found this site and thread. As its getting late now I plan to read the entire thing tomorrow. But since the gracious KenTech has the same model as me I'm hoping I could just indulge the board with one question - if I can 'fix' this issue to my liking I'm sure I'll stop there and never tinker with any of the other settings.










Please bear with me as I'm not very knowledgeable but I learn quickly. What has me feeling very unhappy is the choice between FULL and ZOOM mode when watching non-HD broadcasts. In full I have black bars on all 4 sides (effectively making the display much smaller). If switched to zoom I lose some clarity and the left and right edges of the picture are cut off - which makes using the dish network on screen guide difficult.


Am I correct that I can make horizontal and vertical size changes to the full and/or zoom modes in code categories 2170d1 and 2170d2 ? Just wanna make sure I'm on the right track. Thanks


----------



## l1mkelly

I fixed most of the geometry issues on my TV expect horizontal lines. In the center of the TV horizontal lines are straight. On the top half of the TV screen horizontal lines curve downward when they start getting to the edges. On the bottom half of the TV screen horizontal lines curve up towards the edges. Think of an eye shape. The problem gets very bad in the corners, but that is to be expected, I guess. I think my VPIN might be set to low in 2150D-1. I believe the VCEN in 2150D-1 will have no effect because it pushes horizontal lines in the same direction. Am I correct in thinking this? Am I overlooking any data registers that I should be considering? If anyone has had this problem and corrected it please let me know.


----------



## ptchristensen

Quote:

Originally Posted by *l1mkelly*
Am I overlooking any data registers that I should be considering? If anyone has had this problem and corrected it please let me know.
Attached is the geometry part of an early service manual. It has some excellent drawings and explanations. You should be able to get perfectly straight lines, except in the extreme corners. Those you can hide with overscan and blanking.

 

Pages from KD34XBR2.pdf 82.767578125k . file


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hualon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have read that I need to get into MID4 to adjust values for overscan except my 30HS420 doesn't HAVE a MID4. I don't think that I should adjust the horizontal and vertical stretching until I fix the overscan, right? Otherwise, I won't be fixing my vibrating top bar problem.



The "MID4" reference is misinformation. The adjustment of basic scanning parameters is contained within the 2170D code groups, and the attachment to ptchristensen's message is quite valuable.


Re MID1-3: I have hardly any personal experience with these three groups. The service-data descriptions are cryptic at best. Looking at the circulating Excel spreadsheet and its comments, I get the impression that MID1 may have something to do with the information displays, MID2 with a 480i picture inside a window on 16:9 sets, and MID3 with similar functions for 480p amd maybe 720p and 1080i. This may be speculation by others that has found its way into those spreadsheet listings; I can't confirm any of it.


MID5 is a completely different beast, dealing exclusively with image enhancement as referred by a pointer (MIDE) in the 2170P-3 tables.


Note that no one has yet found a way to make the "width" or horizontal-size adjustment for different scan situations. (I want to make an adjustment to the Zoom mode.) It appears like one size fits all: 2170D-2 #2/HSIZ. On the other hand, there are a couple of sdjustments for "height" in 2170D-1 #1/VSIZ and #13/ASPT, the latter being scan-mode dependent.


Don't ignore the "blanking" features that can be used as shutters to block the non-viewable edges of a given display. 2170D-3 #0-5 control the presence and width of these shutters for each edge.


If anyone want to experiment with MID1-3, I would be pleased to read about their experiences. As I have a 4:3 tube, much of it may not apply to me.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *92gli* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> if I can 'fix' this issue to my liking I'm sure I'll stop there and never tinker with any of the other settings.



Hah! Who you kidding?


> Quote:
> What has me feeling very unhappy is the choice between FULL and ZOOM mode when watching non-HD broadcasts. In full I have black bars on all 4 sides (effectively making the display much smaller). If switched to zoom I lose some clarity and the left and right edges of the picture are cut off - which makes using the dish network on screen guide difficult



Right! This is my problem, too, as mentioned in my previous post, above. I can get height correct for a Zoomed 4:3 broadcast on 16:9 HD, but not correct width. If you adjust width to correct Zoom, you will find it's now screwed up for regular viewing. There seems to be just *one* width adjustment: HSIZ in 2170D-2 #2.


If anyone can figure a soluition to this, they ought to get a prize! Maybe there's some "hidden" method using a code in the MID1-3 groups, but I don't know of it.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If anyone can figure a soluition to this, they ought to get a prize! Maybe there's some "hidden" method using a code in the MID1-3 groups, but I don't know of it.



I'm not going to claim the prize since I do not have a 4:3 TV to test on...but...!


Using the MID3, 0-3 setting you can adjust both width and height of the picture or window, for different screen modes, but only if the Frame/Raster is correctly centered in your Full mode. You can only adjust inside the existing frame or raster.


I'm desperately trying to "cook" the geometry down to some simple rules, which is absolutely impossible. Please remember that these are highly subjective rules based on a lot of tweaking on a 34XBR960.


Find the center of your TV and mark it using a post-it, or such. If you have a 16:9 set, mark also the width of the black bars on 480i input.


Rule 1) The width and height of the the frame or raster is set using the 2170D-1 and 2. You always start with your "default" input. If you have a 16:9 set you start with 1080i input. If your TV is a 4:3 you start with 480i. There are good instructions in the service manual for this initial setup. Most of the setting in these menues are global.


Rule 2) The width and height of the picture inside the frame, or the window, for the 480i also called DCS signal is adjusted in MID2, 0-3. These settings only effect the 480i signal.


Rule3) The width and height of the picture inside the frame, or the window for all other inputs and screen modes are set in MID3, 0-3. These settings are independent of input, screen mode and resolution.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Using the MID3, 0-3 setting you can adjust both width and height of the picture or window, for different screen modes, but only if the Frame/Raster is correctly centered in your Full mode. You can only adjust inside the existing frame or raster.
> 
> 
> I'm desperately trying to "cook" the geometry down to some simple rules, which is absolutely impossible. Please remember that these are highly subjective rules based on a lot of tweaking on a 34XBR960.



Thanks! You've inspired me to experiment on my 36XS955. I'm half-expecting that the whole "frame" issue may not apply to me with my 4:3 set, but we'll see. I'll report back.


----------



## mizer

KEN TECH


Have you used the test patterns from INHD to tweak 1080i?

I am wondering if they are accurate for tweaking my cable input.

I do notice some slight shifting when I pause the convergence and overscan patterns using my DVR.


I seam to have a bowing down of the horizontal line at the corners that I would like to correct if I can but I don't know if its possible without playing with the magnets on the CRT.


I have a SONY 40XBR700


Mizer


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mizer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you used the test patterns from INHD to tweak 1080i?
> 
> I am wondering if they are accurate for tweaking my cable input.



Sorry, what is INHD? I use exclusively off-the-air HD broadcasts, and analog cable for SD reception. I *wish* a local station would occasionally broadcast a setup pattern or two, especially color bars and grayscale steps.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry, what is INHD? I use exclusively off-the-air HD broadcasts, and analog cable for SD reception. I *wish* a local station would occasionally broadcast a setup pattern or two, especially color bars and grayscale steps.



In the service menus for my 34XBR960 I have a menu called QM. This menu contains a massive amount of geometric patterns and color patterns.


And here comes the kicker: the geometric patterns are generated in 3 different input formats. 1080i, 480i and 480p. I have no idea how they do it, but I centered



If you are as lucky as me, to have this menu, here is what you do: In QM, PATN the entries from 1-20 is 1080i, 21-40 480i and 41-60 480p. You select the pattern for the adjustment you need to do - then you navigate to the menu you need for the adjustment i.e. 2170D-1 - the pattern stays on the screen. You make your adjustment and save. The pattern stays until you move back to the QM, PATN menu and reset it to 0.


The QM, CPTN contains around 20 color patterns. I have not used these since I leave the color adjustments to Ken and Glen.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And here comes the kicker: the geometric patterns are generated in 3 different input formats. 1080i, 480i and 480p. I have no idea how they do it, but I centered


*And here is the full sentence:*


And here comes the kicker: the geometric patterns are generated in 3 different input formats. 1080i, 480i and 480p. I have no idea how they do it, but I centered the picture, and adjusted for overscan on all three inputs using the patterns and when I compared with 480i input from the tuner and 480p from my DVD, they were spot on...!


----------



## Kona1

This is cool! I just tried to generate the patterns on my kd34xs955 and all the patterns that you mentioned were there on my TV as well. No need to put patterns on a memory stick now to make adjustments. Out of curiosity, how do you know that 1-20 is 1080i, and 21-40 is 480i? I can tell that the last group is 480p, but I was wondering how you knew about the first two groups.


----------



## Kona1

Would someone be able to provide me with the codes or a link to properly adjust for *centering* and *overscan*? By looking at the test patterns that _ptchristensen_ found, I believe that my picture is not centered or has the proper overscan adjustment on any of the inputs.


Thanks.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kona1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is cool! I just tried to generate the patterns on my kd34xs955 and all the patterns that you mentioned were there on my TV as well. No need to put patterns on a memory stick now to make adjustments. Out of curiosity, how do you know that 1-20 is 1080i, and 21-40 is 480i? I can tell that the last group is 480p, but I was wondering how you knew about the first two groups.



Here's what I do:

I select an 480i channel on my Motorola 6412 DVR cable box. I go to the QM menu and set the PATN to 1. Then I navigate to the menu I want to change i.e MID3. The service menu now shows me that the input is HD/Full/ATSC/1080i.


Conclusion: No matter what input you have selected the input will change depending on the pattern you select in QM/PATN.


Yesterday I forgot to say that after you make your adjustment and save, you have to move to the QM/PATN menu, change value to 0 and SAVE.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kona1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would someone be able to provide me with the codes or a link to properly adjust for *centering* and *overscan*? By looking at the test patterns that _ptchristensen_ found, I believe that my picture is not centered or has the proper overscan adjustment on any of the inputs.



First of all...the TV picture is always much more forgiving that a test pattern. If you do not have any problems with the way your picture and the overlaying logos and screen menues look...leave it alone.


Centering is important since the screen menues and the black bars might be offset. If they are not and if you do not see any shifting when moving between input formats...leave it alone.


Overscan is often needed to hide imperfections in the corners. I have adjusted to 4% overscan, to hide bending lines in the upper left corner.


Here are the basic steps that I would use:


1) Center the raster or frame, using 480i-Full or 1080i input. See Service Manual 2-8. KenTech #14


2) Overscan is corrected in 2170D-1/VSIZ and VPOS to adjust vertical size/position. 2170D-2/HSIZ and HPOS for horizontal. Remember that this is global, so you need to do a lot of saving and moving between input and formats.


3) Blanking, see KenTech #265.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ev01vEd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there a way to get the "Wide Zoom" mode back to factory defaults? By mistake I copied my settings for "Full" over to it, now they are the same.



In short...No...!


Find all the "Wide Zoom" entries in 2170D-1 and 2 and entries in MID1-3, and reset them to the default settings.


Possible shortcut: Check 2170D-1, 11. If the value is 0, change to 1 and save. If that doesn't do it, you have to "walk the walk".


----------



## jjmilo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the service menus for my 34XBR960 I have a menu called QM. This menu contains a massive amount of geometric patterns and color patterns.
> 
> 
> And here comes the kicker: the geometric patterns are generated in 3 different input formats. 1080i, 480i and 480p. I have no idea how they do it, but I centered
> 
> 
> 
> If you are as lucky as me, to have this menu, here is what you do: In QM, PATN the entries from 1-20 is 1080i, 21-40 480i and 41-60 480p. You select the pattern for the adjustment you need to do - then you navigate to the menu you need for the adjustment i.e. 2170D-1 - the pattern stays on the screen. You make your adjustment and save. The pattern stays until you move back to the QM, PATN menu and reset it to 0.
> 
> 
> The QM, CPTN contains around 20 color patterns. I have not used these since I leave the color adjustments to Ken and Glen.



Is anyone aware whether the 34XBR910 has such a pattern generating menu?

When I perused the Service Manual for the 34XBR2 provided by Kentech there was a reference to such a menu on page 23. I wondered if a similar capability was offered in XBR models that followed the 34XBR2. We have confirmed that with the 34XBR960 and the 955 model. Is the same true for the 34XBR910????


----------



## Kona1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In short...No...!
> 
> 
> Find all the "Wide Zoom" entries in 2170D-1 and 2 and entries in MID1-3, and reset them to the default settings.
> 
> 
> Possible shortcut: Check 2170D-1, 11. If the value is 0, change to 1 and save. If that doesn't do it, you have to "walk the walk".



Thanks for the reply _ptchristensen_. I'll take your advice and perhaps just leave everything alone. I haven't noticed any logos being cut off, and 4:3 material appears to have the same amount of black bar on either side of the picture.


----------



## Marconelly

I've been a happy owner of 30HS420 TV for a few weeks now, and today I decided to go through service menus a bit, to try to fix some of the small focus issues I've noticed.


Most notably, when I display 720p picture from my computer on this TV, I notice that the left side of the screen seems unfocused compared to the right one. Following KenTech's instructions from his thread-starting posts, I've been able to correct this, and make the picture perfectly in focus all over the screen.


*However*, as soon as I've finished this, I've noticed a new problem on one test picture. Picture that displayed white thin vertical lines on the black background made me notice that the lines close to the left and right side of the screen have red color bleeding on the right side of each line, and blue bleeding on the left side of each line. It looks like when the beams are out of focus, these lines get a bit fuzzy on the edges and you can't see this convergence problem (is that what is referred to as a convergence problem?), but when I everything properly, it appears.


I have no idea how to fix this, and I've tried fiddling with the D-CONV parameters, but no matter how much I changed these I couldn't see any significant change, and certainly not something that would fix my problem










Any advice?


----------



## MaxDam77

I have the same TV, the KV 30HS420, You mean like a blur on the sides? When dark colors ae mixed with light one? I too tried to fix that on the D-CONV menu and it didn't change a thing. The only way I found to correct this is by reducing the screen size a little. But it will affect the other video settings like my PS2, which is missing less than an inch on each sides of the screen so I have to enter the sm and readjust the screen size (HSIZ).


----------



## Marconelly

Not exactly the blur. You can fix the blurry edges by fiddling with the focus parameters (2170D-4 group). This more seems like a convergence problem, because the three beams don't converge at the same vertical line. Still, D-CONV didn't help with this at all.


Also, I've noticed that the focus on this TV seems to be relative to what picture it's displaying... WHen I'm outputting the 720p picture from my computer, I have the wallpaper in the background. When I put a small file listing window over that large background wallpaper picture, the TV shows that small window as much blurrier than if I stretch the window over the whole screen, or just make it bigger - all of a sudden, the text in the window (file names) became perfectly in focus and readable. This happens no matter what I do with focus parameters. Weird?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the service menus for my 34XBR960 I have a menu called QM. This menu contains a massive amount of geometric patterns and color patterns.



pt, you're an absolute Prince for discovering this!


It doesn't appear in any service manual I have seen. Enter service mode, and step *backwards* with the 5 key to see these groups. My 36XS955 has the service-menu group called "QM." It comes up in blue, not green, and AFAIK the values are never saved. Further, 0 - Enter reloads everything and kills the patterns, rather that your having to run the PATN count down to 0 before exiting. So does power-off.


#0 - INFO (values 0-7) has 7 screens of information about what is going on in the set. Nerds, rejoice!


#1 - PATN (values 0-80) has four groups of 12 patterns, both color and b/w, including a couple of amazing frequency sweeps. Each pattern is at value 20*n + p, where n is 0-3 for the group, and p is 1-12 for my pattern set. (The remaining values are pure-white screens.)


The groups on my set appear to be 1080i, 480i, 480p, and 720p. That last one may be exclusively component video, and the middle two NTCS color by a different pathway.


#2 - GPTN (values 0-12) are 11 different patterns of a decidedly different type on only the upper 70%of my screen, no matter the scan rate. Some are translucent. I don't know their specific purpose.


QM has more codes, but I haven't discovered anything about them yet.


The test patterns are inserted into the video channel *ahead* of all picture adjustments in 2170P-3 and MID5, so they can be used for evaluating these settings. I value the crosshatch patterns, but some of the others I will probably just look at for fun, as we don't know what pathway they take thru the long processing chain. I wonder what the sweep frequency extremes are for the #8 patterns in each group. Unfortunately the highest video frequencies are positioned at the right edge of the screen, where the horizintal focus is the worst!


I will bet these are for quick assessment of major probems by a service tech, and that we can trust perhaps only the crosshatch patterns and grayscale steps for calibration accuracy. For me, these will *not* replace the sophisticated patterns available from DVD via component input, nor memory-stick patterns, for center focus and other screen-center assessments. I don't trust the bright color bars at all! The gray step-scales are likely useful for assessing your grayscale linearity, unless you have a color bias on one side of the screen -- and then other patterns would be much better.


Kudos for the detective work!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Marconelly* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have no idea how to fix this, and I've tried fiddling with the D-CONV parameters, but no matter how much I changed these I couldn't see any significant change, and certainly not something that would fix my problem



What you describe here is exactly a dynamic-convergence problem, and making adjustments in D-CONV should really fix this. I have corrected my own problem with fringing on vertical white lines at the left and right sides of the picture with D-CONV #2 and 7, RSAP and LSAP. I watched medium-brightness lines at 1-3" in from the right side, tweaked RSAP, and watched the color fringing disappear. Same with the left side. The xSAP codes affect the whole height of the picture; if you want to affect just the top, middle, or bottom, see service manual for picture-descriptions of what codes to use.


Note that making the pattern very bright brings about a bit of misconvergence on its own, and so use lower brightness settings. If you have the marvelous "QM" code group on your set, see above messages for suggestions. The HD crosshatch pattern (#1) would be excellent for this.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Marconelly* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I put a small file listing window over that large background wallpaper picture, the TV shows that small window as much blurrier than if I stretch the window over the whole screen, or just make it bigger - all of a sudden, the text in the window (file names) became perfectly in focus and readable. This happens no matter what I do with focus parameters. Weird?



Maybe not. If the file window is white, and your wallpaper is medium-toned, your whites may be set so bright that the scanning spot "blooms," a natural effect, blurring darker text against the white background. Further, the focus is not equal over all the screen: the right and left quarters of the screen will generally exhibit *better* focus of horizontal lines and *worse* focus of vertical lines -- it's the nature of the beast. The scanning spot is a slightly vertical oval at the center of the screen, but it changes to a skinnier horizontal oval at the left and right extremes and to other oval orientations at the corners and top/bottom extremes. Maybe you have to turn down the Picture slider a bit.


Sony's focusing method that I used as a basis for my Focusing article "balances" focus for different positions on-screen and for bright vs. dim picture detail. I learned the hard way that the wrong settings may make for a gorgeous dim picture, but bright detail smears all over the place. I redid mine for the right compromise, and after weeks of use, I'm still very pleased! (Getting mine right *required* me to twiddle that internal focus control, as mentioned in the article. Your set may need that touch-up, too. Take a look.)


----------



## Marconelly

Ken, thanks for your answers.


----------



## LeRoyK

Thank you pt, I am very happy with the test patterns as well. I have a 36xs955 like KenTech.


KenTech, my test patterns 61 - 80 put the tv in 720p mode not 480i.


I was able to adjust overscan pretty easily using the patterns 'on the 7s' using MID3 for 1080i, 480p and 720p and MID2 for 480i.


----------



## MaxDam77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe not. If the file window is white, and your wallpaper is medium-toned, your whites may be set so bright that the scanning spot "blooms," a natural effect, blurring darker text against the white background. Further, the focus is not equal over all the screen: the right and left quarters of the screen will generally exhibit *better* focus of horizontal lines and *worse* focus of vertical lines -- it's the nature of the beast. The scanning spot is a slightly vertical oval at the center of the screen, but it changes to a skinnier horizontal oval at the left and right extremes and to other oval orientations at the corners and top/bottom extremes. Maybe you have to turn down the Picture slider a bit.
> 
> 
> Sony's focusing method that I used as a basis for my Focusing article "balances" focus for different positions on-screen and for bright vs. dim picture detail. I learned the hard way that the wrong settings may make for a gorgeous dim picture, but bright detail smears all over the place. I redid mine for the right compromise, and after weeks of use, I'm still very pleased! (Getting mine right *required* me to twiddle that internal focus control, as mentioned in the article. Your set may need that touch-up, too. Take a look.)



Finally an answer to my problem







Thanks Ken. What I know already is that my whites aren't that bright so just need to adjust in the D-Conv menu and the focus to see if the blur on the sides will be corrected.


----------



## tomlennon

Quick couple of questions from a newbie. I have a 34XS955, which I believe is very close in construction and electronics to the 34XBR960. Is the twin-view feature of the XBR960 simply electronically diabled in the 955, and thereby accessable and enable-able through service codes? It wouldn't be the first time a feature has simply been disabled for offer in a lower-tier device.


Also, OT, but which thread should I look in where I could find the channel lineup in my area? I plugged my digital cable feed into the back of my TV and discovered I could see all those digital stations without the RCN cable box....but it's difficult navigating when there's no logical order to the channels (i.e. 114.5, 89.50, etc).


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LeRoyK* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> KenTech, my test patterns 61 - 80 put the tv in 720p mode not 480i.



Thanks for the correction. I didn't think of that -- but I didn't see an indication of it, either. That early XBR2 manual explains a couple of procedures for using the test patterns, and in each case the indicated that you should enter the video mode of interest *first,* then invoke the test pattern. I wonder if the *order* in which you do this matters in how the set uses the pattern.


> Quote:
> I was able to adjust overscan pretty easily using the patterns 'on the 7s' using MID3 for 1080i, 480p and 720p and MID2 for 480i.



The implication of more than one of the service manuals is that you should set up the 2170D centering and display-size adjustments (overscan) on a standard input before anything else. If that is not set up right, i.e. the picture is not centered on the raster, maybe tinkering with MID1-3 settings is a premature way to correct overscan *until* the 2170D adjustments are satisfactory as far as they go. But maybe you've done this already.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LeRoyK* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was able to adjust overscan pretty easily using the patterns 'on the 7s' using MID3 for 1080i, 480p and 720p and MID2 for 480i.



Let me elaborate a little on what Ken answered to this one. Overscan should be set on the standard input, 1080i or 480i/Full on Widescreen and 480i on 4:3, using the 2170D-1 and 2.


Corrections for overscan is almost always set on tube based tv's. Let's say that from the factory the overscan is set to 3% on the raster or frame using 2170D-1 and 2. If you then further correct the overscan using the MID3 settings, that reacts only on the picture inside the frame or raster, you will actually add to the 3% already set.


----------



## tamiya

It maybe a stupid question but


Can KV30HS420 change screen mode in 720p signal by adjust service menus a little bit?


Sony say it's HD signal so it will fix at "full" mode. but the problem is when I output a 704*396 video from my computer via DVI-HDMI cable the aspect rate is incorrect under this "full" mode. Huge black bar on both top and bottom.


I can change VSIZ and ASPT in 2170D-1 to fix it but they are global setting. It just drives me nuts.


It there any way to do it? switching screen mode in HD signal?


----------



## ubulat

no...there is no way. period.


----------



## tamiya




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ubulat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> no...there is no way. period.



No way to change? Are you sure?

Is this same for all Sony TV like KD and XBR?


How come they are so stupid?


I switch from Philips 9110d to SONY due to ghosting problem, now Sony can't even display the picture correct?


I gotta change back to Philips then, the second raid of this model seems get rid of ghosting already.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tamiya* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sony say it's HD signal so it will fix at "full" mode. but the problem is when I output a 704*396 video from my computer via DVI-HDMI cable the aspect rate is incorrect under this "full" mode. Huge black bar on both top and bottom.



I'm not quite sure that I understand...

- Is your picture "stretched" to fill the screen horisontally, with black bars on top and bottom?

- Is the PC signal the only 720p signal you send through the HDMI input?


If the signal is stretched you could try MID3, 2 and 3 to stretch the signal vertically. The MID3 settings are both input and signal independent.


----------



## tamiya




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not quite sure that I understand...
> 
> - Is your picture "stretched" to fill the screen horisontally, with black bars on top and bottom?
> 
> - Is the PC signal the only 720p signal you send through the HDMI input?
> 
> 
> If the signal is stretched you could try MID3, 2 and 3 to stretch the signal vertically. The MID3 settings are both input and signal independent.



Here is the original











KV30HS420 in HD mode










see the black bar at both top and bottom?


No, PC HDMI signal not always output 720p. if i play a 640*480 video, i can switch screen mode no problem.

I can see TV recognize 640*480 video as VGA signal, 704*396 as 720p signal in service menu



But the point is 1280*720 video do just fine.


So even i change setting in MID3, it still ruin the real 720p video since TV consider 704*396 is 720p.


Not like Sony, Philips can change screen mode any time in any signal, so there no such problem


Any suggestion?


----------



## MaxDam77

In your picture, it seams that you are missing a little of the screen on the right side also or is it me?


----------



## tamiya




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MaxDam77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In your picture, it seams that you are missing a little of the screen on the right side also or is it me?



Yes, actually it miss the pic on the both side about 8%.


After play with service menu, top and bottom just fine. No overscan whatsoever.

But no matter how I adjust, always miss some pic on the side.


I wonder if it has something to do with my video card setting. But I try that too.

No use. GF6800


----------



## WR400guy

We've just purchased 4 ea) Sony KV-SW29M50's, and we need to turn off the noise reduction. The Sony website claims this model doesn't exist, and I've never been able to get past their automated phone messaging to speak with a real person. These are "grey market" NTSC/PAL TV's, manufactured by Sony but not sold through normal distribution channels. They make a beautiful picture, but generate hideous noise reduction artifacts when the source is noisy.


----------



## jjmilo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjmilo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is anyone aware whether the 34XBR910 has such a pattern generating menu?
> 
> When I perused the Service Manual for the 34XBR2 provided by Kentech there was a reference to such a menu on page 23. I wondered if a similar capability was offered in XBR models that followed the 34XBR2. We have confirmed that with the 34XBR960 and the 955 model. Is the same true for the 34XBR910????




BUMP


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tamiya* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wonder if it has something to do with my video card setting. But I try that too. No use. GF6800



Two questions


1) Do you send "real" 1080i through the HDMI/DVI port?. If not, then you can still use MID3.


2) Does your graphics card support component output, and did you try?


----------



## tamiya




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Two questions
> 
> 
> 1) Do you send "real" 1080i through the HDMI/DVI port?. If not, then you can still use MID3.
> 
> 
> 2) Does your graphics card support component output, and did you try?



1, I don't know if it's real or not. I try 1280*720 video, it shows 720p on service menu. 1980*1080 shows 1080i, 704*396 shows 720p, 640*480 shows VGA.

All from HDMI output.


I can try MID3, but i'm confuse. How do I set MID3 settings signal independent?


2, Why do i need component while i have HDMI? Plus, GF6800 has a bad reputation on component output


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tamiya* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1, I don't know if it's real or not. I try 1280*720 video, it shows 720p on service menu. 1980*1080 shows 1080i, 704*396 shows 720p, 640*480 shows VGA.
> 
> All from HDMI output.
> 
> 
> I can try MID3, but i'm confuse. How do I set MID3 settings signal independent?
> 
> 
> 2, Why do i need component while i have HDMI? Plus, GF6800 has a bad reputation on component output



1) Since you send both the "good" and the "bad" 720p and the 1080i through the same input you cannot use the MID3 menues. In your first mail I got the impression that 704*396 were showing as 1080i, and if you didn't input other 1080i through HDMI you could have used MID3. But alas...!


2) Well you are certainly not giving the HDMI/DVI connection a better reputation.


If you expect your Sony TV to be able to handle all possible PC formats, you obviously have the wrong TV. Btw. I never before heard of a 704*396 signal, even on PC's, what format is that?


----------



## tamiya




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) Since you send both the "good" and the "bad" 720p and the 1080i through the same input you cannot use the MID3 menues. In your first mail I got the impression that 704*396 were showing as 1080i, and if you didn't input other 1080i through HDMI you could have used MID3. But alas...!
> 
> 
> 2) Well you are certainly not giving the HDMI/DVI connection a better reputation.
> 
> 
> If you expect your Sony TV to be able to handle all possible PC formats, you obviously have the wrong TV. Btw. I never before heard of a 704*396 signal, even on PC's, what format is that?



I download a lot of Japan anime from internet. The fansub groups rip the DVD or Japan HDTV program then add English subtitles.

Usually they release them in 704*396 which is perfect 16:9 format. It should fit my HS420 perfectly.

My pervious HDTV(Philips 9110d) has no problem with it at all, they look beautiful. I just don't understand why SONY make this so complicated.


I mainly use PC as my signal source until the HD-DVD or Blue-Ray come out and of course the XBOX 360.

Perfect compatible with PC is a main factor for me. Sony just let me down. Probably I shall stick with some brand that is more user friendly.


----------



## MaxDam77

On mine, DVDs set in 480p and regular tv in "full" mode fills the whole screen. but while using my PS2 and GC, like you I miss like less than an inch on the sides in full.

How I corrected that? I simply adjust the screensize in the sm (HSIZ) to 44. My default setting is 51 and everything (DVD, PS2,...) fills the whole screen but I have a problem when doing so, blurs on the sides when dark colors and whites are mixed together appears for DVD and TV only(on the sides and edges only). I tried to tweak in the D-CONV menu but nothing happened. It's still there. Maybe it is the focus for the verticals but I'm not sure whitch menu to tweak.


----------



## dimitar

Hi,


I got my 34XS955 a week ago. Yesterday I tried the Adjacent Colors image (from memory stick), posted earlier in this thread, and I noticed kind of ghost/shadow on the right side of each color.

My question is: Is it possible to fix this from the service menu, without affecting/breaking something else, and which code(s) I should be looking at?


Thanks,


Dimitar


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjmilo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is anyone aware whether the 34XBR910 has such a pattern generating menu?



JJ, you should just enter service mode to find out. I know of no document that will tell you this. Just get into service mode and step backwards with the 5 key to see if you run into a "QM" group of codes. If not after going back several steps, you likely don't have this feature. You can exit by turning the set off.


----------



## CrocHunter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MaxDam77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On mine, DVDs set in 480p and regular tv in "full" mode fills the whole screen. but while using my PS2 and GC, like you I miss like less than an inch on the sides in full.
> 
> How I corrected that? I simply adjust the screensize in the sm (HSIZ) to 44. My default setting is 51 and everything (DVD, PS2,...) fills the whole screen but I have a problem when doing so, blurs on the sides when dark colors and whites are mixed together appears for DVD and TV only(on the sides and edges only). I tried to tweak in the D-CONV menu but nothing happened. It's still there. Maybe it is the focus for the verticals but I'm not sure whitch menu to tweak.



Try adjusting QPDC, this adjusts the overall focus in the middle of the screen,it will help to focus the verticals in the middle of the screen.


----------



## MaxDam77

Thanks, I'll check that out. I just went back to the 1st page of this thread and Ken already mentioned it. But I wasn't sure it was that.


----------



## jjmilo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> JJ, you should just enter service mode to find out. I know of no document that will tell you this. Just get into service mode and step backwards with the 5 key to see if you run into a "QM" group of codes. If not after going back several steps, you likely don't have this feature. You can exit by turning the set off.



KenTech

I would not have asked this question if I would have had access to my XBR. I suppose I should have mentioned that I have been away and still am, for the better part of a month. However I did not feel obligated to do so. Consequently I am not able to investigate this personally. I was anticipating a pleasant surprise before I return. I have been in the Service Menu numerous times and I did not recall such an item. But then again I could have missed it. I was hoping someone who has present access to the 34XBR910 would have done this already and responded. Perhaps the lack of response means NO. I quess I will answer the question myself when I return. Thank you for your response nonetheless.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MaxDam77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On mine, DVDs set in 480p and regular tv in "full" mode fills the whole screen. but while using my PS2 and GC, like you I miss like less than an inch on the sides in full.
> 
> How I corrected that? I simply adjust the screensize in the sm (HSIZ) to 44. My default setting is 51 and everything (DVD, PS2,...) fills the whole screen but I have a problem when doing so, blurs on the sides when dark colors and whites are mixed together appears for DVD and TV only(on the sides and edges only). I tried to tweak in the D-CONV menu but nothing happened. It's still there. Maybe it is the focus for the verticals but I'm not sure whitch menu to tweak.



You really shouldn't have to anamorphically squeeze your normal DVD and TV signal, just because you have to fit the signal from your PC....!


The service menu have so many entries that deals with this exact problem. You can adjust width and height independent of signal and input. The only thing you cannot do is differentiate between different signals if they are send in through the same input, and the Sony TV sees them as the same signal type i.e. 480p.


If you could tell me which signals you send though which inputs on the TV, and how the TV interprets the signals, we might be able to find a better solution for you.


The problem you have with fuzzy edges should be solved using the blanking shutters. See KenTech #265


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dimitar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi, I got my 34XS955 a week ago. Yesterday I tried the Adjacent Colors image (from memory stick), posted earlier in this thread, and I noticed kind of ghost/shadow on the right side of each color.
> 
> My question is: Is it possible to fix this from the service menu, without affecting/breaking something else, and which code(s) I should be looking at?



Suggestion: Go to your menu, turn off ClearEdge WM. If that doesn't help, you might have your Sharpness set too high. It should not be higher than 31.


----------



## rhassle

Hi Kentech:


I'm new to the forum but I am very interested in the calibration of my XBR960. I cannot seem to download the pdf file with the good stuff in it. Could it be reposted somehow?


----------



## MaxDam77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You really shouldn't have to anamorphically squeeze your normal DVD and TV signal, just because you have to fit the signal from your PC....!
> 
> 
> The service menu have so many entries that deals with this exact problem. You can adjust width and height independent of signal and input. The only thing you cannot do is differentiate between different signals if they are send in through the same input, and the Sony TV sees them as the same signal type i.e. 480p.
> 
> 
> If you could tell me which signals you send though which inputs on the TV, and how the TV interprets the signals, we might be able to find a better solution for you.
> 
> 
> The problem you have with fuzzy edges should be solved using the blanking shutters. See KenTech #265



Thanks,

I'm use too it but I'd love not to enter the sm everytime I want to play videogames.

So here is how it is set when (HSIZ 51)

I use the Video 5 for DVD via component cables and my dvd player is set to 480p

Video 6 for PS2 via component cables 480i

Video 3 for the Gamecube via S-video cable.

DVD and TV have blurs on the edges when dark and light are mixed together. PS2 and GC, is Perfect.

When (HSiZ 44-45) The DVD and TV blurs are gone and but I miss an inch on the right and left sides for the GC and PS2.


I'll look on Ken Tech #265.


Thanks for your help.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MaxDam77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> I'm use too it but I'd love not to enter the sm everytime I want to play videogames.
> 
> So here is how it is set when (HSIZ 51)
> 
> I use the Video 5 for DVD via component cables and my dvd player is set to 480p
> 
> Video 6 for PS2 via component cables 480i
> 
> Video 3 for the Gamecube via S-video cable.
> 
> DVD and TV have blurs on the edges when dark and light are mixed together. PS2 and GC, is Perfect.
> 
> When (HSiZ 44-45) The DVD and TV blurs are gone and but I miss an inch on the right and left sides for the GC and PS2.
> 
> 
> I'll look on Ken Tech #265.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help.



Try this:


1) Adjust HSIZ so that the DVD and TV is perfect, save.

2) Input the PS2 signal. In service menu go to MID2. Write down existing settings, then adjust DRHP and DRHS till the width of the input fits the screen. These two settings work a little different than HSIZ since the work from the side instead of from the center, so you have to adjust both. save.

3) Input the GC signal. In service menu go to MID3. Write down existing settings, then adjust VDHP and VDHS as described above. save.


That should do it...if not, report back and we will try something else....and you shouldn't need the blanking shutters.


The reason I think it might work is that you have separate input for all the different signals. MID2 only deals with 480i signals, MID3 deals with the rest.


----------



## MaxDam77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Try this:
> 
> 
> 1) Adjust HSIZ so that the DVD and TV is perfect, save.
> 
> 2) Input the PS2 signal. In service menu go to MID2. Write down existing settings, then adjust DRHP and DRHS till the width of the input fits the screen. These two settings work a little different than HSIZ since the work from the side instead of from the center, so you have to adjust both. save.
> 
> 3) Input the GC signal. In service menu go to MID3. Write down existing settings, then adjust VDHP and VDHS as described above. save.
> 
> 
> That should do it...if not, report back and we will try something else....and you shouldn't need the blanking shutters.
> 
> 
> The reason I think it might work is that you have separate input for all the different signals. MID2 only deals with 480i signals, MID3 deals with the rest.



First of all, thank you for your time for looking into my problem. As soon as I'm at home, I'll try that and tell you, probably tommorrow if that worked out.

Thanks again for your help.


----------



## MaxDam77

Went home during my lunch break and it worked









It work for the PS2 but the GC in MID3 didn't do anything.

So I when back a reajust in the MID1 because I changed the ones I had to my default setting like it was.

Everything fills the screen and I haven't yet notice any blur!


Big thanks again.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MaxDam77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It work for the PS2 but the GC in MID3 didn't do anything.



Must be because the GC signal is 480i, so when you corrected the PS2 input in MID2 you also corrected the GC signal.


----------



## confinoj

When centering the raster on my 30xs955, should I judge center by space on either side of the raster or a center point on a test pattern? The service manual is not clear on this, but I am assuming one would center based on equal spacing on either side.


----------



## confinoj

When centering the raster on my 30xs955, should I judge center by space on either side of the raster or a center point on a test pattern? The service manual is not clear on this, but I am assuming one would center based on equal spacing on either side.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *confinoj* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When centering the raster on my 30xs955, should I judge center by space on either side of the raster or a center point on a test pattern? The service manual is not clear on this, but I am assuming one would center based on equal spacing on either side.



You are assuming correctly...but...!


If all the width and height settings in MID1, 2 and 3 are at their default settings, the centering using 2170D-2, HCNT, would actually be correct, but that's usually not the way it works.


If you are following the instructions from the service manual, the picture will be compressed when you do the centering. If your image is equally spaced, and the center of the test pattern is close to the center of your screen, you are in good shape.


After the centering is done you should not touch HCNT again. I think the reason they start with this centering is that the HSIZ and VSIZ works from this locked center and out.


----------



## confinoj

Thanks. I have not touched the MIDx settings yet. So does that mean centering as written in the service manual is ok. If I center based on side spacing the center of the cross hatch pattern (QM PAT #1) is not centered - is this ok? Also, as am I reading about MIDx settings I'm confused about setting image size/overscan. Should I be setting overscan to 0% using 2170D1-2 and then adjusting based on input via the MIDx settings? If you could reccomend a general procedure starting with centering raster and sizing using 2170D1-2 then moving on to the MIDx settings I would appreciate it. The interplay is still somewhat confusing to me.


----------



## confinoj

Thanks. That's very helpful. A few more questions:

1) Are you saying that you set overscan in 2170D1-2 on the default input _just_ enough to hide imperfections (hopefully only a few %) and then adjust overscan any further if needed using MIDx based on individual inputs? Is the goal to have a little overscan as possible.

2) When you say mark the width of the black bars for 480i, do mean by calculating and measuring out what a 4:3 image should be given my screen size/aspect? If not then the the measurements would be off, unless the image is already appropriately sized/centered.

3) Is it possible to use the built in test patterns (QM) and still set MIDx by individual inputs? I'v read somewhere that built in test patterns aren't always centered appropriately.


Thanks again.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *confinoj* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks. That's very helpful. A few more questions:
> 
> 1) Are you saying that you set overscan in 2170D1-2 on the default input _just_ enough to hide imperfections (hopefully only a few %) and then adjust overscan any further if needed using MIDx based on individual inputs? Is the goal to have a little overscan as possible.
> 
> 2) When you say mark the width of the black bars for 480i, do mean by calculating and measuring out what a 4:3 image should be given my screen size/aspect? If not then the the measurements would be off, unless the image is already appropriately sized/centered.
> 
> 3) Is it possible to use the built in test patterns (QM) and still set MIDx by individual inputs? I'v read somewhere that built in test patterns aren't always centered appropriately.
> 
> 
> Thanks again.



1) I set overscan and basic geometry for all inputs, screen modes and resolutions using 2170D-1 and 2. After this basic adjustment you should only have to adjust slightly for size and position using MID2 for 480i and MID3 for the rest. Remember 2170D-1 and 2 defines the picture frame. Using MID2 and MID3 you adjust the picture inside the frame for different inputs, screen modes and resolutions.


2) If 4:3 is centered correctly now, just mark the spots where the black bars begin. If it's not then you have to do the math.


3) Yes, read KenTech #429.


----------



## confinoj

_1) I set overscan and basic geometry for all inputs, screen modes and resolutions using 2170D-1 and 2._


It seems _almost_ all of these settings (2170D-1/2) are global, so you have to strike a balance for different resolutions/inputs/screen modes, correct? Then the question is which input do you use as the "default" I had been using the QM test patterns for 1080i and 480i which seems to be equivalent to the ATSC input. It does not seem possible to use these patterns for setting other inputs. The only problem is that there is no 480i normal mode and I've also noticed that the 480i full test pattern, when centered (I was using HPOS and SCRL since these can be set for 1080i and "others") is way off from other inputs. Should I forget about these patterns and just pick my most used input and use that to do initial sizing/centering, geometry?


Another question. As you suggested I started setup with a 1080i test pattern since I have a 16:9 set. After getting overscan settings how I liked it on 1080i with 2070D-1/2 HSIZ/VSIZ, I discovered that 480i normal content had too small a horizontal size (I calculated 19.5 inches for my 30" WS set) so I had to readjust HSIZE for the correct width. Was this the right thing to do?


Thanks again.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *confinoj* /forum/post/0
> 
> _1) I set overscan and basic geometry for all inputs, screen modes and resolutions using 2170D-1 and 2._
> 
> 
> It seems _almost_ all of these settings (2170D-1/2) are global, so you have to strike a balance for different resolutions/inputs/screen modes, correct? Then the question is which input do you use as the "default" I had been using the QM test patterns for 1080i and 480i which seems to be equivalent to the ATSC input. It does not seem possible to use these patterns for setting other inputs. The only problem is that there is no 480i normal mode and I've also noticed that the 480i full test pattern, when centered (I was using HPOS and SCRL since these can be set for 1080i and "others") is way off from other inputs. Should I forget about these patterns and just pick my most used input and use that to do initial sizing/centering, geometry?
> 
> 
> Another question. As you suggested I started setup with a 1080i test pattern since I have a 16:9 set. After getting overscan settings how I liked it on 1080i with 2070D-1/2 HSIZ/VSIZ, I discovered that 480i normal content had too small a horizontal size (I calculated 19.5 inches for my 30" WS set) so I had to readjust HSIZE for the correct width. Was this the right thing to do?
> 
> 
> Thanks again.



1) Sorry I wasn't real clear on that one. What I meant to say was that almost all the settings in 2170D-1 and 2 are global. So by adjusting these you adjust all inputs, screen modes and resolutions.


You almost did it the way I did:


- I set the "default", in this case 1080i using 2170D-1 and 2.

- I adjust the "Full" 480i using MID2. I do not go back and adjust any of the 2170D-1 and 2 settings after I have done my "default" setup, that would just throw off the adjustments I just did.

- I adjust the rest using MID3


After this I test all the signal for "real". 1080i using a test signal from my Comcast DVR through DVI-HDMI. 480i from the TV tuner and 480p DVD signal through component cables.


----------



## CrocHunter

Yesterday i did some tweaking in an effort to recalibrate my black level.


Before i had SBRT at 20 and UBOF at 3 for video 5-6 component inputs interlaced and progressive.UBOF at 0 for video 1-4 and UBOF at 0 for cable tv.


Now for about 3 months, it's kind of funny how i thought i had a perfect black level when in fact i came to realize that doing some more test patterns with DVE and the ramp test patterns there was no detail in dark areas.I immediately noticed that all this time when i finally plugged in my dreamcast that i hav'nt played in a while to video3 the black level was crushed, no detail at all too dark.huh?


It's funny how i did'nt realize i was sacrificing shadow detail for dark black levels,i did'nt realize i was lossing shadow detail untill now.It seems video 1-4 and cable input were way off too dark.So this leads me to beleive that my dvd player was darker than all the other inputs.


Is it common to raise UBOF 4-5 notches to get shadow detail? is my SBRT setting too low at 20? This is very frustrating, the DVE disc does'nt help much either in explaining the other test patterns for brightness and contrast.


I need help guys...


----------



## tudor

Hi Crochunter,


I have the 30xs955. I have my SBRT at 33, and the UBOF at 0 or 1 depending on input and scan rate. I have plenty of shadow detail, and the BTB patterns on DVE look just right.


Hope this helps


----------



## CrocHunter

33 is way too high for me, by going that high UBOF is useless to me on mine.


I need kentech's help, thanks for your input but i think kentech knows a bit more to help.


for instance i would like to know how to use the other brightness test patterns on DVE and would like to know how to use them and what to look for.


----------



## MaxDam77

My SBRT is set to 28. It used to but at 31.


----------



## CrocHunter

Isn't that kind of high to you?


Is black even black at that level?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is it common to raise UBOF 4-5 notches to get shadow detail? is my SBRT setting too low at 20? This is very frustrating, the DVE disc does'nt help much either in explaining the other test patterns for brightness and contrast.



First, it's *very* important to understand that black level is established in several places that interact -- or add together, depending on how you look at it.


(1) Globally, 2170P-1 - RCUT-BCUT contribute as much as SBRT, #4 below. If you raise them all up a couple of notches, you have raised black level as if you had raised SBRT.


(2) 2170P-1 - YOF is an offset that affects black level. Here, the settings are dependent on input video rate *and* video class (YC, component, HDMI, MS/ATSC tuner). I have left them for now set as they came from the factory.


(3) 2170P-4 - BLK, if anything but zero, invokes a dynamic black-level feature that will drive you nuts. It's 0 (off) in Pro mode, but you have to make it zero for the other modes (highly recommended). Until you do this, experiment with black level *only* in Pro mode.


(4) 2170P-1 - SBRT is the fundamental global black-level setting. When I set my drive and cutoff values (RDRV thru BCUT) for the first time, I set SBRT to 31, and then adjusted the RGB cutoffs (#1, above) for a reasonable black level, in the right ballpark. It was originally *way* off for my purposes.


(5) 2170P-3 - UBOF is for balancing black levels among your variious input classes, video rates, and picture modes. If you do set one of them to 0, make sure it's the input/source with the highest black level or you'll have nowhere to go with the others if you have to make them darker. One notch of change here = about two notches in SBRT.


Yes, it is complex, but there are different methods you can use to get a good black-level adjustment.


First, be aware that standards are very sloppy or nonexistant for black level over component cables. The exact voltage for black (green cable) differs from player to player, from one manufacturere to another, and also depends on whether you have set any features on the player, such as lighter-darker, super-black, extended black, etc. My Normal setting for my retired (and excellent) Toshiba 3650 was *very* high; but the Normal setting on my new Panasonic S97 is about the same as broadcast and S-video. Go figure. All you need to do is balance the black levels with the 2170P-3/UBOF settings.


Here is a method that will work. If you want to establish an SBRT setting at its center (31),


(1) play a PLUGE pattern from AVIA or DVE over S-video;

(2) set SBRT to 31;

(3) adjust 2170P-1 - RCUT thru BCUT for a neutral and correct black level. If you have already gotten those cutoffs just right, you might try changing them each by the same amount, so color is not affected. (No guarantees.)

(4) move the DVD player to the component inputs, and trim black level with UBOF for that video rate.


Now . . . *that* gets you in the ballpark, and it doesn't matter if, after tinkering in great detail, you end up with SBRT a few points different or whatever, you have gotten the settings near the middle of their ranges.


One could argue that the UBOF balancing settings could be started off at 3, so you can go either way to make an adjustment. I have no evidence that there are "correct" settings for UBOF; they're for compensating for differences. So one could start with UBOF at 3 for each input, then do steps 1-3 above, and then refine the adjustments for UBOF. I don't think it matters a whit how you do it, but I would confine myself to balancing out SBRT, the RGB cutoffs, and UBOF in Pro mode. (Leave YOF alone.)


The argument for setting SBRT in the middle of its range isn't a strong one. It feels "right" to me, a career electronics and computer engineer. I can't argue for changing anything if you already have a set of satisfactory values for the cutoffs, and SBRT is at, say, 15. My set came with SBRT at 20! The service-manual charts, however, show defaults for different model TVs at 31 for SBRT. So 31 is obviously okay, and I was starting over with the cutuff settings. So I followed the above procedure to great satisfaction.


Example settings for my 36XS955, approx 6500K white, color Neutral, DVE pluge:


UBOF = 3 or 4., depending on input. Mostly 4. (DVD player on V5 was 0, now 4.)

SBRT = 31

RDRV - BCUT = 43-27-21 - 40-21-22


Another example for friend's 34XBR960, approx 6500K white, color Neutral, DVE pluge from late-model Toshiba player:


UBOF = untouched from factory; unknown.

SBRT = 31

RDRV-BCUT = 40-27-24 - 38-20-26


Note that the *sum* of the three cutoff settings nearly match, at 83-84. But there were color differences between his set and mine, with red-blue differences in the settings, eay to adjust. I started with *my* settings on *his* TV, then tweaked them for correct color. Worked like a charm. Used a transportable small computer with a calibrated 6500K screen as a standard.


This discussion has been about *just* black level ("brightness"). Contrast ("picture") is another set of adjustments entirely, overlapping the above only in the three RGB drive settings. I have found new ways to balance the contrast between different sources, too, and the settings are in different places: 2170P-4 - **** (for different input classes) and 2103-1 - SCON for balancing SD broadcast against S-video inputs (say, your VCR).


Further, no matter what I have said before, there are two places where sharpness is very significantly controlled *in addition* to 2170P-3 and the MID5 table. I'll write that up soon. I have some substantially improved image settings to recommend for different sources, based on these (for me) recent discoveries. Surprising improvements for SD broadcast and SD over S-video, and for DVD on component inputs, less so for HD broadcast.


Have I clarified this, or made matters worse? Gimme feedback!


----------



## CrocHunter

Ken, First off thank you very, very much for your detailed response











> Quote:
> (3) adjust 2170P-1 - RCUT thru BCUT for a neutral and correct black level. If you have already gotten those cutoffs just right, you might try changing them each by the same amount, so color is not affected. (No guarantees.)



Not sure exactly what these did before and was afraid to touch them since everything looks good the way it is.Should i adjust these?


Also by highest black level input do you mean the blacks when they are smokey?


So if i'm getting this right, i should first calibrate s-video with video1-4 since it's the same, with SBRT then use UBOF to balance the rest of the inputs?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tudor* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have the 30xs955. I have my SBRT at 33, and the UBOF at 0 or 1 depending on input and scan rate. I have plenty of shadow detail, and the BTB patterns on DVE look just right.



And an important point is this: If those BTB patterns look just right for your DVD player, but you aren't getting good (or too much) shadow detail on, say, HD broadcast (which is fairly consistent) or SD broadcast (which is not consistent), you just tweak UBOF for that input, and go on watching to see if it's improved. So easy once you have the *basic* black level down cold for one predictable input.


----------



## CrocHunter

You see that's what confuses me the BTB bar, how should i go when adjusting black level should i adjust it untill it's visible, or do i adjust it untill it justs becomes invisible and blends with the background?


The DVE disc when it tells you can get really confusing, could you if possible show me some pics of your tv with those test patterns to tell me what to look for.


I noticed my PS2 does'nt have the BTB bar, what do i do to calibrate that for my videogames?or is that only affect the dvd part of the PS2 and not the games?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ken, First off thank you very, very much for your detailed response



You're welcome very, very much!


> Quote:
> Not sure exactly what these did before and was afraid to touch them since everything looks good the way it is. Should i adjust these?



If your darkest grays are satisfactory in color, meaning they're a neutral gray, not reddish or bluish or something, then I would leave them alone. Make the major adjustment with SBRT, no matter what value it ends up with. That guarantees you won't screw up the color. (I'm only guessing that changing RCUT-BCUT by the same amount leaves the color untouched. Maybe they actually don't track perfectly.)


> Quote:
> Also by highest black level input do you mean the blacks when they are smokey?



Yes. Smoky-gray blacks indicate a *high* black level for that source (coming into the TV), and you should consider lowering UBOF for that input or leaving it at zero and lowering SBRT.


> Quote:
> So if i'm getting this right, i should first calibrate s-video with video 1-4 since it's the same, with SBRT then use UBOF to balance the rest of the inputs?



That really does seem like a good strategy, as I certainly can't say how black behaves on your DVD player's component outputs. But if you know that DVD/component black is higher than DVD/S-video (i.e. its blacks are smoky), then you can set the component DVD connection to UBOF = 0 (and ignore DVD/S-video), and the other inputs and broadcast will likely be set to a higher UBOF. You might have to go through this process twice to get it right.


----------



## CrocHunter

You see that's what confuses me the BTB bar, how should i go when adjusting black level should i adjust it untill it's visible, or do i adjust it untill it justs becomes invisible and blends with the background?


The DVE disc when it tells you can get really confusing, could you if possible show me some pics of your tv with those test patterns to tell me what to look for.


I noticed my PS2 does'nt have the BTB bar, what do i do to calibrate that for my videogames?or is that only affect the dvd part of the PS2 and not the games?


What about this, thanks this is my final question.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You see that's what confuses me the BTB bar, how should i go when adjusting black level should i adjust it untill it's visible, or do i adjust it untill it justs becomes invisible and blends with the background?
> 
> 
> The DVE disc when it tells you can get really confusing, could you if possible show me some pics of your tv with those test patterns to tell me what to look for.



On DVE, go directly to Title 12, Chapter 2 for pluge bars and gray steps. The three black bars on either side of the gray steps are what you pay attention to. Adjust black level under your normal viewing conditions (fairly dim, but not lights-out) so that the outer bars (blacker-than-black) are *not* visible, the middle bars *are* visible, and the inner bars are only *slightly* visible -- just barely.


For folks with the AVIA disk, go to Advanced > Video Test Patterns > Gray Scale & Levels > Black Bars & Log Steps. Adjust black level so the moving bar to the left of the step pattern is just barely visible.


I think you'll find that you will end up tweaking real video sources a bit up and down from here with the Brightness slider, depending on how they were produced, even for HD and DVDs. The important thing is to please your eyes for whatever you're watching. But this is a good starting point for Brightness = 31.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I noticed my PS2 does'nt have the BTB bar, what do i do to calibrate that for my videogames?or is that only affect the dvd part of the PS2 and not the games?



I don't know what to recommend, given that I don't play games or have a gaming device available. I would assume that calibration is less critical, as you are not trying to display photographic reality, here. I would think the darkest tones in the game are "black," and that you can deduce what those are by moving the Brightness slider up and down. If you consistently end up preferring Brightness at, say 35, you could knock UBOF up two notches for that input to compensate.


----------



## CrocHunter

Ken you have made my day!


Thanks a bunch buddy, i'll try these out later


----------



## CrocHunter

One more question just a quick one










what dvd's do you recommend that are good test for black level?


I heard "The Terminator" is one of them and pirates of the carribean any others?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One more question just a quick one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what dvd's do you recommend that are good test for black level?



I have never thought of theatrical DVDs that way, believe it or not. There is a defined standard for DVD black, and it is present on both DVE and AVIA. Having set *that,* I have simply moved on to enjoying playing whatever DVDs I acquire. I have read that a few DVDs actually have a few shadows that are BTB, but I imagine one would spot that when viewing: just up the Brightness a bit. I watch many modern high-quality releases without adjustment of black level, and they seem just right. Others, I tinker.


Image quality is another story, and I am collecting a few titles just for judging my TV setup, cables, and (recently) a new DVD player. "Monsters, Inc" is at the top of the list for me. There's so much fur and other fine details rendered digitally from the CGI sources, not optically, that it's hard to beat. I have also been looking at the suggestions here:

http://www.filmsondisc.com/ISF_Refer...VD_Program.htm 


No conclusions yet, and I don't yet have an external sound system for the TV. I'll have to comment on black-level-critical DVDs another time.


----------



## CrocHunter

Those two i mentioned above are excellent choices especially "The Terminator" that move was remasterd so good it looks like brand new movie, the detail and fidelity will astonish you!


sure there is a few scratches and specs in the presentation but what can you do, it's an old movie and they could only do so much with what they had.


"Pirates of the carribean" is deffinately a good one, many claim it to be a good torture test for black level.


----------



## nakedeye

I just picked uo a 30xs955 and im ready to tinker. problem is all the wonderfull files that were posted earlier in the thread are not downloading. Any way they can be re posted? I very much appreciate your level of commitment to this set!


----------



## TwinCityTVHound




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Let me elaborate a little on what Ken answered to this one. Overscan should be set on the standard input, 1080i or 480i/Full on Widescreen and 480i on 4:3, using the 2170D-1 and 2.



I'm just getting to the point (100+ hours on the clock) where I can start tweaking my 36XS955. For me, the major issue is major overscan when viewing the 1080i (16:9 on the 4:3 screen) mode.


pt's post suggests that I need to set overscan for the 480i input *first* -- then move on to 1080i. Is this right?


If so, are there separate control menus for the 1080i overscan, or do I still use 2170D-1 and 2? Do I also need to adjust the "shutters" I've read about in other posts?


I'm using the HDMI interface to connect my HD TiVo, feeding the HDNet test pattern, if that makes any difference.


Thanks, in advance.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TwinCityTVHound* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm just getting to the point (100+ hours on the clock) where I can start tweaking my 36XS955. For me, the major issue is major overscan when viewing the 1080i (16:9 on the 4:3 screen) mode.



Who told you that overscan is bad - Overscan is your friend...!


I have used months to perfect the geometry on my 34XBR960, and I still end up with 4% overscan. Sometime in the future I hope to find a magnet expert, so that I can fix the imperfections in the corners, and hopefully end up with less overscan.


Up to 5 % you do not really miss anything, thrust me. The station logo might be in a slightly different position, but it's a lot better than curvy lines in the corners. As long as the overscan is equal in width and height and below 5% you are fine.


You actually only set overscan once using 2170D-1 and 2 displaying the screen "default" signal, in your case a 480i signal. You might then have to use MID2 and MID3 to center and align the other signals.


----------



## 1352Ovideo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have some substantially improved image settings to recommend for different sources, based on these (for me) recent discoveries. Surprising improvements for SD broadcast and SD over S-video, and for DVD on component inputs, less so for HD broadcast.



KenTech - I have benefited so much from your earlier ones - I eagerly await this one. (Since most of what I watch is SD over S-Video.)


----------



## Zerobit

Are there any service codes for horizontal convergence for the XBR960? I can only find the vertical ones in this thread. The vertical ones Kentech listed really helped a lot.


----------



## jjmilo

I have made a recent observation on the first screen that appears when I enter the Service Menu on my 34XBR910. Normally I would not linger on this screen; instead going to the device name area I wish to tweak. This first screen shows the word VERSION on the top left and the word SERVICE on the top right, with a 0 0 listed listed between them. If you change it to 0 1 by pressing the 3 key on the Remote you will get a Subscreen with the words *Software Version* and the values:

M16C : 1.1C

MID-X : 1.012

VIPER : 2.00

I am wondering how these version values compare to other 34XBR910 owners. Wondering if any differences here have any bearing on the disparities that some of us have presented when tweaking. Any comments?


----------



## TwinCityTVHound




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Who told you that overscan is bad - Overscan is your friend...!
> 
> 
> ==> snip


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TwinCityTVHound* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Overscan looks a little excessive on 480i 4:3 material, compared to other sets in my house. But the *apparent* overscan on that 16:9 letterbox is much greater, if the HDNet test pattern can be believed.



Since I have a 16:9 screen and I never tried correcting overscan on a 4:3 set, I was only speaking "in theory".


I will leave it to the several 955 users to guide you...!


----------



## TwinCityTVHound




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since I have a 16:9 screen and I never tried correcting overscan on a 4:3 set, I was only speaking "in theory".
> 
> 
> I will leave it to the several 955 users to guide you...!



Actually your previous posts (and separate thread) have already helped me...a lot. Thanks!


Hopefully, KenTech -- who is a 36XS955 owner -- can clarify the procedure for setting 16:9 vs. 4:3 overscan.


P.S. Bottom-of-screen graphics and "tickers" are sometimes cut off in 16:9 mode, and the HDNet pattern is definitely missing something on all 4 sides.


----------



## nebrunner

Great thread, thanks for posting the info on the service menu. I downloaded the PDF's and have tried repeatedly to press the button combo to enter the service menu. No matter how fast I hit the buttons, it will not let me in. What is your secret to getting in there?


I have two set specific questions for you guys also. I have set up the picture quality as best I can using AVIA via component DVD and also the old Video Standard LD via Svideo. I was impressed with how good picture and tint were right out of the box on this set.


My first question is about contrast setting. My old tv was a piece of cake to set, the needle pulse bent noticeably so I simply set contrast just below the point of bending. The power supply on this set must be a lot more robust, I can crank contrast up and the needle doesn't bend. Barring that, it is saying to set contrast where the white looks "really white", but I am not sure what that means. I wound up setting it at 28, just a bit below the default of 31.


Second question is about the screen setting. I want reverse letterbox to show up on 4:3 pics, and I want the true picture on all 16:9 and widescreen movies. No distortion or any of that. I thought I had it set right as my 4:3 pics were being reversed letterboxed, but all my DVD's were showing up inside a rectangle in the center of the screen. I can set widescreen viewing to "full" and then they stretch out, or "full zoom" but I want to make sure I am seeing the movie as intended.


----------



## CrocHunter

D-CONVERGANCE


Well guys turns out you can actually fix the convergance on these sony sets,i have the 34hs420 and did some touch up yesterday and there was a very noticeable improvement in sharpness and clarity of the picture.


Theres only one problem though, it's for adjusting vertical lines only, for horizontal lines you will have to live with what you have since they can only be adjusted with magnets.


Not sure if anyones tried these convergance tweaks, but i say be my guest and tell me how you do.


Matt Suzuki~


----------



## CrocHunter




> Quote:
> Great thread, thanks for posting the info on the service menu. I downloaded the PDF's and have tried repeatedly to press the button combo to enter the service menu. No matter how fast I hit the buttons, it will not let me in. What is your secret to getting in there?



Just keep trying you will get in trust me


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrocHunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There's only one problem though, it's for adjusting vertical lines only, for horizontal lines you will have to live with what you have since they can only be adjusted with magnets.
> 
> 
> Not sure if anyones tried these convergence tweaks, but i say be my guest and tell me how you do.



I have a 34XBR960 and I've worked with both magnets and the service menu.


When I first bought my set, it was in relatively poor shape and I had a Sony factory tech come out to adjust the convergence problems. He used some magnets, and some service menu tweaks, but I wasn't really satisfied when he decided it was "close enough" and "met factory specs".


I called Sony again, and this time got the name of some local authorized service guys, and authorization to have one of them come over for a "second opinion". I was quite lucky to pick someone who was very attentive to perfection and was willing to spend 2 hours on his first visit (before he ran out of magnets) and another hour on his self-initiated second visit (with a fresh supply of magnets) to complete the job. Of course after his magnet work we (and then me alone) worked on the service menu convergence adjustments to optimize things, based on his new magnet placements.


So there really is no way to share the convergence tweaks from one set to another... they are each unique by set, because magnet placement on each set is totally unique. They all come from the factory with assorted magnets already placed by factory techs (during final checkout, I would imagine, to get "close enough" and so that it "meets factory specs"), which will be different for each and every set.


Since the then-needed vertical line convergence tweaks in the service menu (D-CONV group) are really a function of how your set finally turned out based on its magnet placement (yes, magnets must be used to "cure" horizontal line convergence issues but will obviously also affect vertical lines as well), about the only thing that can be said is "to each his own", and "YMMV".


However there's no question the D-CONV group can have significant results improving things, in the vertical line convergence arena. My own tweaks concentrated on D-CONV 0-11, with some minor and some major changes.


All in all I feel the magnet work and D-CONV tweaks to have given me stellar results.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a 34XBR960 and I've worked with both magnets and the service menu.
> 
> 
> All in all I feel the magnet work and D-CONV tweaks to have given me stellar results.



DSperber - Three questions:


- Did you get the magnet work done under the sony warranty?

- Were your problems only convergence, or did you also have geometry issues?

- I'm also in Marina Del Rey...if you want to share the name of the magnet guy, please PM contact information.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nebrunner* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No matter how fast I hit the buttons, it will not let me in. What is your secret to getting in there?



Remember the TV has to OFF before you hit the combination: display, 5, +vol, power on...!


----------



## CrocHunter

Nice to know i'm not the only one that has made improvements just by using the D-CONVERGANCE settings










For me it was the very top and bottom of the picture that needed convergance tweaking a bit since there were obvious color fringes there.After using some of the D-Convergance tweaks the color fringing is gone and it's more sharper now.


Point taken...Use D-Convergance to fix some minor convergance problems, i know they helped me out very well, not perfect but it much more better overall.


----------



## DSperber

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ptchristensen*
- Did you get the magnet work done under the sony warranty?
Yes.


The initial factory tech visit (perhaps 1 week after the set was delivered to me) was arranged by Sony. I don't actually know where he came from. Free visit to me.


The second visit, from a local authorized service place, was also free to me. His follow-up visit (because he'd run out of magnets on the first trip) was also free to me, but he simply might not have told Sony and done it on his own because of the incomplete first trip. Very sincere.


Quote:

- Were your problems only convergence, or did you also have geometry issues?
As would be expected, I had both. And of course this makes geometry placement quite an art. A magnet affects not only convergence but the entire electron beam, which means even geometry can be affected (adversely or beneficially) while trying to cure convergence problems.


As it turns out, we were able to use magnets to reduce some of the more gross bow/curvature artifacts along with pincusion and trapezoid problems (especially obvious in the corners of course) and even some S-curves more in the middle of straight lines, working very carefully to not disturb the convergence corrections we had also implemented. As would be expected, the results were not absolutely 100% perfect, and some compromises (from me, really) were necessary. But outside of the test patterns where you can really see the problems and effects of the magnets, most actual live HDTV content looks perfect.


So once the magnet work was complete and we didn't want to fool with it anymore for fear of tampering with "success", I proceeded to work (on my own) with the full set of 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 groups, moving little-by-little all around the screen and trying to get "rectangularity" and "linearity" where previously I might have seen distortions. I am extremely pleased with my final results.


Just recently, in response to the Oct.1 premiere of "Saturday Night Live" in HD and the misplacement of the upconverted SD bug, I became aware that I also had misadjusted my overscan. I think I must have done this using a DVD-provided test image at 480p (from Digital Video Essentials) and INPUT5 on the set. Whatever the explanation, it was clearly off as the misplaced NBC bug was 50% cut off, partially because of their misplacement and partially because of my wrong overscan adjustment.


So last week I worked on re-sizing and re-centering, and reducing horizontal and vertical overscan. This time I connected my XBR960 to my PC (DVI output of ATI Radeon 9800 Pro to component video INPUT6 of the TV via ATI adapter, running at 1080i resolution using ATI 5.8 Catalyst drivers) and used a 1920x1080 convergence/overscan test pattern from DisplayMate for Windows Video Edition (attached to this post). Preliminary adjustments were entirely in the 2170D-1 (0-1, for vertical position and size of the raster) and 2170D-2 (1-2, for horizontal position and size of the raster) groups, followed by overscan adjustments within the now adjusted raster using MID3 (0-3, for horizontal and vertical position and size). I'm quite surprised at how much better things now look, and how much broadcast content I was previously losing before this recent tuning effort.


Much to my surprise, some previous residual geometry and linearity distortions around the extreme perimiter of the screen (which I never could quite tweak out) now seem to have been greatly reduced. To my eye, permiter lines and corners seem much more linear and rectangular than before. Perhaps I was previously "stretching" things unnaturally and now, with proper re-sizing and re-centering and much reduced overscan, things are being displayed with proper proportions and H/V dimension ratios, and thus appear much more linear.


Whatever the explanation, adjusting size/center and overscan using 2170D-1 (0-1), 2170D-2 (1-2), and finally MID3 (0-3) has seemingly had a positive effect on geometry and lineary as well, but that may be partially optical illusion since everything is just a tiny bit smaller now (with reduced overscan, more picture is now being displayed in the same 16x9 34" screen area).


NOTE: I think a real test of your adjustments is on ESPN-HD, when they're showing 4x3 content and have those gray vertical areas on the left and right to fill out the 16x9. The gray areas are striped, with thin black stripes against the gray background. And they're supposed to be truly vertical stripes, and black. Depending on your convergence settings and other geometry/linearity settings, anything not perfect will be quite visible in these two gray areas. On my set, the black stripes left side were initially way out (and almost rainbow-like) while the stripes on the right side were virtually pure black. Now, they're both very very similar (although the left side black stripes are not quite pure black as the right side stripes still are, but they're very very close and at least they're not chromatic and rainbow any longer). I think this content is the real proof of your overall convergence tuning and geometry tuning, whether by magnets or service menu tweaks. I know I always fall back to it as my "real world" test.


Quote:

- I'm also in Marina Del Rey...if you want to share the name of the magnet guy, please PM contact information.
No need for secrecy or privacy. The guy deserves some promotion.


Ask for Andy, at Audio Video Shoppe (on Teale St. in Culver City). 310-306-4600. They're authorized service providers for lots of brands, including Sony.

 

overscan.zip 9.4423828125k . file


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ask for Andy, at Audio Video Shoppe (on Teale St. in Culver City). 310-306-4600. They're authorized service providers for lots of brands, including Sony.



Thanks for the info, good people should always be shared and promoted...!


You are not the only one falling back to the ESPN side bars. I recieve my HD signal through Comcasts Motorola 6412 DVR. So I also use the Saturday morning test signal from INHD and I always test my 480i signal against the NBC Weather Plus channel.


But since i discovered the Sony QM menu I mostly use these test patterns for my geometry adventures.


----------



## CrocHunter

Is there a black level adjustment for both s-video and composite? It seems UBOF is the same for video1-4, and i would like to tweak the black level for both composite and s-video since they both have different black levels.


Is there any items other than UBOF,SBRT ?


The reason being is because if i tweak composite perfectly, then s-video is to dark..so when i brighten up s-video to get it perfect then composite video get's messed up and smokey.


Is there an adjsutment to adjust these two items seperately? or do i just have to make a compromise?


----------



## nebrunner




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Remember the TV has to OFF before you hit the combination: display, 5, +vol, power on...!





Right! Tv is off, I am hitting these buttons...nothing. I am not 80 and have shaking hands either, I am 34 and can still score 750,000 points in a game of Robotron. I think you guys are all just crazy










This button combination does not work on my 30xs955. Are you hitting them all at once or sequentially?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nebrunner* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Right! Tv is off, I am hitting these buttons...nothing. I am not 80 and have shaking hands either, I am 34 and can still score 750,000 points in a game of Robotron. I think you guys are all just crazy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This button combination does not work on my 30xs955. Are you hitting them all at once or sequentially?



This is a hard one to explain, but...!


On my remote, I do the following:


- Power Off

In a "flowing" succession I push

- Display (round button, buttom right)

- 5 (the number 5 buttom)

- +Vol (the upper part of the volume button)

- Power On


When the TV comes on you will see 3-4 lines of codes and numbers on top of the normal TV picture.


----------



## jcardani

Hi DSperber,


Can you please explain in more detail how to adjust horiz and vert size/pos with the 2170D-1, 2170D-2, and MID3 settings for overscan. I have always used only the 2170D ones (left MID3 as is) - no wonder why I can't get things exactly right! I don't have a PC attached to the TV but I can use a Denon DVD player playing VE/AVIA that outputs 480p/720p/1080i via DVI or HDMI.


BTW I have the 30XBR910


thanks!


Joe



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So last week I worked on re-sizing and re-centering, and reducing horizontal and vertical overscan. This time I connected my XBR960 to my PC (DVI output of ATI Radeon 9800 Pro to component video INPUT6 of the TV via ATI adapter, running at 1080i resolution using ATI 5.8 Catalyst drivers) and used a 1920x1080 convergence/overscan test pattern from DisplayMate for Windows Video Edition (attached to this post). Preliminary adjustments were entirely in the 2170D-1 (0-1, for vertical position and size of the raster) and 2170D-2 (1-2, for horizontal position and size of the raster) groups, followed by overscan adjustments within the now adjusted raster using MID3 (0-3, for horizontal and vertical position and size). I'm quite surprised at how much better things now look, and how much broadcast content I was previously losing before this recent tuning effort.
> 
> 
> Much to my surprise, some previous residual geometry and linearity distortions around the extreme perimiter of the screen (which I never could quite tweak out) now seem to have been greatly reduced. To my eye, permiter lines and corners seem much more linear and rectangular than before. Perhaps I was previously "stretching" things unnaturally and now, with proper re-sizing and re-centering and much reduced overscan, things are being displayed with proper proportions and H/V dimension ratios, and thus appear much more linear.
> 
> 
> Whatever the explanation, adjusting size/center and overscan using 2170D-1 (0-1), 2170D-2 (1-2), and finally MID3 (0-3) has seemingly had a positive effect on geometry and lineary as well, but that may be partially optical illusion since everything is just a tiny bit smaller now (with reduced overscan, more picture is now being displayed in the same 16x9 34" screen area).


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jcardani* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can you please explain in more detail how to adjust horiz and vert size/pos with the 2170D-1, 2170D-2, and MID3 settings for overscan.



Well, first I believe there are separate memories for 480p/720p/1080i (I may be wrong here), or else there are just separate memories for INPUT5 and INPUT6. One way or the other, I show different service menu values when I adjust with a test pattern from DVE (480p on INPUT5) vs. when I adjust with a test pattern from my PC (DMWVE overscan test image, 1080i on INPUT6). However whatever the actual settings are, the general tweaking approach is the same.


(1) Using DVE, I went to Title 12 (Display Setup Patterns) and then Chapter 17 (1:33 overscan pattern). On my 34XBR960 the test pattern will display automatically in FULL mode (i.e. 16x9), although I can use the MODE button to get it back to 4:3 if I wanted to (but I don't). So now I'm looking at that pattern in 16x9. It has extreme edges, as well as interior rectangles and gradation markings reflecting the various percentages of overscan.


The following recipe will probably require several iterations, going back through 2170D-1, 2170D-2 and MID3 until you're totally satisfied. So don't just stop with your first try. Also, you will want to verify that you have proper alignment on all of your inputs... since it appears there are separate memories for each.


Don't forget to write down your current settings for each input before you start.


(2) Power the TV off, and then enter service mode (Display, 5, Volume +, Power). Then press 2 repeatedly until you get to the 2170D-1 group for vertical alignment. Use 5 to go back if you "overshoot" the group.


Once in 2170D-1 I used only 0 (VPOS vertical position) and 1 (VSIZ vertical size) to adjust vertically, using 1/4 buttons to go back and forth between 0 and 1, and using 3/6 buttons to adjust that item up or down.


To sense the effect of each 3/6 tweak, push the key just one unit at a time and watch what happens on the screen. It will be obvious what you're changing, and when you've reached (or exceeded) where you should probably be.


When you're satisfied that you have centered and sized vertically (using the gradations and overscan percentage rectangles as your general guide), move on.


(3) Press 2 to move into 2170D-2, where I used only 1 (HPOS horizontal position) and 2 (HSIZ horizontal size), again using 1/4 buttons to go back and forth between 1 and 2, and using 3/6 buttons to adjust that item up or down.


Again, try your best to get the best (or expected) amount of size and centering in the horizontal direction. You may want to go back to 2170D-1 and fool around some more with vertical arrangement.


Again, use 3/6 one unit at a time and watch what happens on the screen. Even though you haven't gotten to MID3 yet, you can still sense when what you currently have is optimal or not.


(4) When satisfied that you have the vertical and horizontal size and centering done acceptably (for now, anyway), press 2 repeatedly until you get to MID3.


The adjustments with 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are conceptually the "raster" (i.e. the "canvas"), which is sort of the background upon which the actual image will then be displayed... located on your physical screen according to your VPOS, VSIZ, HPOS and HSIZ settings.


Then, the "image" dimensions and position (on top of the "canvas") is what is controlled by MID3. So in a sense, you can have a larger background than an actual image on top of that background, and the image can be moved around and resized on top of the background using the MID3 controls.


That's why you try to maximize/optimize the "background raster" with 2170D-1 and 2170D-2, in anticipation of properly sizing and placing the "image" on top of it using MID3. Obviously you want to end up with the image size and canvas size the same, which would make the image extend out to the edges of the screen just like the conceptual raster background underneath it. This maximizes the amount of image you see, wasting nothing of your 16x9 screen real estate.


I don't know why Sony decided to implement this whole thing as "layers" (a la Photoshop) but they did. So you just have to go through this 2-step process of first spreading out the canvas to fill your screen, and then spreading out the image on top of the canvas to also fill the screen. What's up to you to control is just how much overscan you impute through your settings, meaning how much of the perimiter image you are willing to lose.


Once at MID3, you use 0 (VDHP horizontal position), 1 (VDHS horizontal size), 2 (VDVE vertical position) and 3 (VDVS vertical size) to manipulate the "image" on top of the "background" (i.e. within the "background raster"). Again, use 3/6 buttons to adjust one unit at a time up or down and watch what happens on the screen. It will be obvious what you're doing and what effect you're having.


Try to adjust things so that you have maximum amount of screen real estate covered, with symmetrical alignment of the 5% overscan rectangle a bit inside the extreme perimiter of the screen... depending on your likes. I suppose you can align things so that you have essentially 0% overscan (where the extreme outside of the test pattern rectangle is uniformly visible around the edges of the screen) but that may let in some video noise depending on what you're watching. It's more likely to see that video noise when a channel broadcasts 4x3 content inside their 16x9 digital presentation (e.g. "Curb Your Enthusiasm" on HBOHD).


In other words, shooting for approximately 1-3% overscan is probably a good idea, and will keep you from screaming at the set when you see video noise. Better not to deal with that.


(5) Once you get used to what you're doing with MID3 and the image stretching, sliding, etc., you can go back to 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 to see if you can perfect things a bit more. And then of course you'll come back to MID3 and tweak again.


This is a delicate process, but you will clearly see what you're accomplishing as you use 3/6 one unit at a time in either direction. It will be very obvious that you're either helping things or hurting things.


(6) Again, I recommend doing this for each of your inputs (INPUT5 and INPUT6 in my case, as I use INPUT5 for DVD/480p and INPUT6 for HD/720p/1080i), at least to determine where the separate memories are... are they by input, or by resolution? Based on my experience there definitely are separate memories for my 1080i (PC, INPUT6) and 480p (DVD, INPUT5) efforts.


(7) Finally, although you can tweak your heart out with a test pattern, you still want to double-check what you've done with realworld content that you're familiar with. For example, the Leno show is excellent as a test because it's wonderful picture quality and essentially a stationary image very night. Also, you might want to look at other film-based high quality shows (e.g. CSI, original, Lost, Rome) to be sure that the HxW proportions of your adusted image looks correct. Images that have the wrong H or W proportions will look squashed or stretched in the horizontal or vertical directions, and people's faces are good tests of that. Going to 0% overscan on a small screen might make the images look too small, whereas going up to 3% might be just enough "enlargement" to make things look more appealing. Of course if you've used your test patterns properly the realworld test should be just fine.


Hope this helps.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (6) Again, I recommend doing this for each of your inputs (INPUT5 and INPUT6 in my case, as I use INPUT5 for DVD/480p and INPUT6 for HD/720p/1080i), at least to determine where the separate memories are... are they by input, or by resolution? Based on my experience there definitely are separate memories for my 1080i (PC, INPUT6) and 480p (DVD, INPUT5) efforts.



Excellent explanation. Since you are not mentioning 480i, I just want to add that 480i viewed through the tuner has to be corrected using MID2, 0-3


There are so many different size settings to use in the service menu that I'm convinced that they are a sign of "patching" and adding to older versions, rather than planning for a specific model.


I still have no idea how and when to use the global size settings in MID1, 0-3 and the half global settings of MID1, 8-11.


----------



## jcardani

Hi DSperber,


Thanks for a wonderful explanation of this process! I will try this on my set ASAP. I have to order DVE (I just have VE and AVIA). As for separate memories for MID3, there are but I have to check the service manual. I think that most of the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 settings are global - but I will check to make sure.



thanks,


Joe


----------



## jcardani

Hi DSperber,


Just thought of this - since KenTech posted so many great tutorials (15 I believe) in this thread, it would be a great idea to add a few more -


(1) Geometry/overscan witht he 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 groups and

(2) adjusting vertical convergence with the D-CONV group.


I know that geometry adjustments are very tricky and I am sure there is a preferred method for this. The hardest for me is where should I start since they all interact with each other. A recommended procedure for this would be a great benefit!


Same with D-conv group for vertical convergence, but obviously horizontal convergence would be outside of the scope of this forum because you need to use the permalloy magnets.


It would be wonderful if you can explain these 2 processes.


thanks,


Joe


----------



## Ev01vEd

When viewing widescreen movies that have top and bottom borders, the left top curves downward, and the bottom left curves upward.


However my right side is straight. Is there a setting to help adjust this? I could not find anything.


Thanks.


----------



## CrocHunter

Believe it or not them D-Convergance tweaks helped my set a lot, i never used them untill now.Now in 4:3 mode there is'nt color fringing near the black borders nice


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ev01vEd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When viewing widescreen movies that have top and bottom borders, the left top curves downward, and the bottom left curves upward.
> 
> 
> However my right side is straight. Is there a setting to help adjust this? I could not find anything.
> 
> 
> Thanks.




2170D-1, 9 HTPZ (H-Trapezoid)


If you cannot get rid of all af the curve, you need need to check your centering of the raster.


----------



## confinoj

I have a 30xs955 and after lots of playing and reading, I've come up with very similar procedures for sizing/centering as recently described. I have a few comments and questions.


1) I have found that setting equal overscan on all sides does not necessarily give the right proportions and one must use a test pattern such as on DVE with a perfect circle and make sure it's vertical and horizontal size is identical. This does not seem to give equal vertical and horizontal overscan on my set. Any thoughts on this one?


2) I have also found that centering based on a center point on the screen does not necessarily perfected center the edges of the screen. What have others been using to center?


3) I have found that HSIZE is a global setting and hence must be used to correctly size the raster for a correct 4:3 width on a 16x9 set. I just did the math based on the height of the screen. How have others been doing this?


----------



## Cloner

Hello all,


I have read this entire thread and feel like I am ready to dive into some image tweaking! My set is a Sony KV32HS500 that has a memory stick slot. I downloaded KenTech's images and put them on a memory stick that I have and the TV does not see the images at all. They have been placed into a folder named DCIM at the root level of the MS. I also put a photo from a digital sony camera in there as well and I can see the small image, but I can not display the full screen image on the TV. What am I doing wrong? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.



Cloner


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *confinoj* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a 30xs955 and after lots of playing and reading, I've come up with very similar procedures for sizing/centering as recently described. I have a few comments and questions.
> 
> 
> 1) I have found that setting equal overscan on all sides does not necessarily give the right proportions and one must use a test pattern such as on DVE with a perfect circle and make sure it's vertical and horizontal size is identical. This does not seem to give equal vertical and horizontal overscan on my set. Any thoughts on this one?
> 
> 
> 2) I have also found that centering based on a center point on the screen does not necessarily perfected center the edges of the screen. What have others been using to center?
> 
> 
> 3) I have found that HSIZE is a global setting and hence must be used to correctly size the raster for a correct 4:3 width on a 16x9 set. I just did the math based on the height of the screen. How have others been doing this?



- I start by setting all MID1, MID2 and MID3 size menues to their default settings.

- Then I do the raster centering like described in service manual 2-8.

- Then the 2170D-1 and 2 settings.

- Ending with the MID2 and MID3 fine tuning.


If the MID settings are not set to default you might not be able to get correct proportions in the 2170D menues. I suspect that this is be because the size settings in 2170D1 and 2 works from the center out, whereas the MID settings works from the top and side.


----------



## jjmilo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cloner* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> 
> I have read this entire thread and feel like I am ready to dive into some image tweaking! My set is a Sony KV32HS500 that has a memory stick slot. I downloaded KenTech's images and put them on a memory stick that I have and the TV does not see the images at all. They have been placed into a folder named DCIM at the root level of the MS. I also put a photo from a digital sony camera in there as well and I can see the small image, but I can not display the full screen image on the TV. What am I doing wrong? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Cloner



You must create a *subfolder* within the root DCIM folder called *100MSDCF*. Place all your images inside this subfolder. This should solve your problem.


----------



## Cloner




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjmilo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You must create a *subfolder* within the root DCIM folder called *100MSDCF*. Place all your images inside this subfolder. This should solve your problem.




Thanks for the reply. I did that when I got home. I am only able to display a photo taken with the camera. None of the jpg images will display. I get an file error on the TV screen. I am trying a few things using photoshop and see what happens. If you think of anything else, please let me know!!!



cloner


----------



## livbt75

geometry code for kv-29x2b.


----------



## ilmaestro

So has anybody tried adjusting the yoke or magnets at all yet? I have an issue with my 36HS20 where horizontal lines slope slightly downwards on the left side of the screen which I've tried and failed to fix in service mode. If it's reasonable to make some manual adjustments though, I'd be up for it.


Jonathan


----------



## DeepFreezed

XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf is broken....


can some one please fix it or let me know where I can find it?


----------



## todd95008

Been trying to cal the greyscale on my HS420 set (see the whole story on the AVS cal forum).


Basically, what I'm finding is there is a lot of cross color contamination from both the RF & CV/YC inputs !!

The color slider is just a gain control but all the other offsets + leakage cause both the greyscale & general color palette to move around quite a bit.


From the measurement I took with Sencore colorimeter (older CP288), as you turn up the color slider there is about an 8-10% reduction in red & 10-15% reduction in blue. the componet input also has this issue (about5% red/10% blue).

The component is probably better since it does not have any of the leakage issues with the tuner or Cv/YC inputs ??


There are some posts on similar issues a few months back on this forum between KenTech and GlenC (ISF guy) but no one ever resolved the issues.


Is there a better way to cal the D65 greyscale and then color decoder or is it just best to get it close and do the rest by eye ??


Todd


----------



## Ayton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> *03 - COLOR CALIBRATION AND BLACK LEVEL*
> 
> 
> (snip)
> 
> 
> Go to code-group 2170P-1. Leave red settings alone. Look out the window at those clouds. Look back at the TV, and set #7-GDRV (green) and #8-BDRV (blue) until the whites are *white* to your eyes. Go between the outdoor view and the TV (big brightness difference, unfortunately) until you get it right. Cycle among your TV channels for different material to verify you're getting it right. Unless you have a color-perception problem, your eyes don't lie: if it looks white, it is white. The clouds calibrate your eyes for a short time.
> 
> 
> Now sit in front of the TV, and adjust #10-GCUT (green) and #11-BCUT (blue) until the darkest areas *match* the color of those whites. There is some interaction here, so twiddle until you think you've got it: a really good B/W picture with very few off-color areas. Note that too-bright white areas may develop pinkish or greenish casts from heating of the CRTs aperture-grille wires - a drawback to the big tubes. Lower the Picture setting if that's the case. You should be able to get a B/W display that maintains consistent color from shadows thru highlights.



Howdy folks. Bit late to the party here! I bought my humble 30hs420 in February, before this wonderful thread, when info was a bit more hazy. An enormous thanks to Ken for his power-to-the-people Sony hacking, and Glen for his pro perspective.


Anyway, I've been tweaking since I bought the set, here and there. I understand how important accurate grayscale is before getting into color, and that's why the above section of Ken's 3rd article is something I want to do right. I tried this method out today and already have a much more appealing picture, but I'll be honest, I really had to ballpark it, and I'd like to do better. I'm talking about the second paragraph, where you try to tune your grays to be neutral in color. Using GCUT and BCUT, I can only clearly tell I've gone too far in one direction when it becomes quite pronounced (kind of sepia with BCUT too low, for example, or magenta on GCUT). There's a large area within each parameter where I am simply unsure if my grays are being tinted or not.


Given that I've seen today what even a rough calibration in this area can do to pop life into the picture, I would very much appreciate some help in getting these GCUT and BCUT settings as good as they can be. How do you all judge your grays with this tweak?


I'm mostly using a pattern from DVE with two sets of gray swatches that run in opposite directions across the screen. I forget the title/chapter number. I have the color set to zero as suggested by Ken.


(I did have great success today with the focus adjustments listed near the beginning of the thread. It was nice to finally have those SM settings explained.)


----------



## Costi

I have a small problem with the 720p and 1080i modes on a 32hs420 (on the HDMI interface). The 16:9 Enhanced mode (v-compression) automatically kicks in when using these, and I can't disable it using the normal menu (it only has Auto and On).


I'm using an Oppo upconverting DVD player, and this becomes an issue on 4:3 DVD's. Is there any way to disabling this automatic v-compression from the service menu?


Thanks!

Costi


----------



## Justin Fletcher

Here's a newbie question for everyone: what is "landing?" I'm having the magnetic discoloration problem that at least one other person has mentioned in this thread. It's a small patch in the upper right hand corner. I've tried different positions of the TV and the surrounding components, but the current splotch is the best I've been able to get. However, pumping up the landing gets rid of it. The problem is I don't know what that does, and I don't want to hurt my set unintentionally.


So what is it? The default settings in the service menu are:

LT - 197

LB - 197

RT - 91

RB - 92


When I increase the RT landing to 168-ish, the splotch disappears. Please tell me what I'm doing.


----------



## Justin Fletcher

Landing? Anyone?


----------



## michaelc

Much like Cloner's post above, I can't get the calibration JPEGs to display on my screen because the TV just spits out "File Error."


Oddly, when plugged into my Sony PSP, they display perfectly. Perhaps some models are itchy about pictures not taken by a camera? I have a non-Sony camera but got pictures I took to appear on the screen by following the naming convention. Didn't have any similar success here.


Model is KV-34HS510, for the record.


EDITED: According to a Google search, running the graphics through this program should make them more compatable with the TV's memory stick reader. They just have to follow the Sony camera settings.


----------



## Ayton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Justin Fletcher* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Landing? Anyone?



I only note that this guy had similar success with the LANDING settings.


I checked some of my service menu docs. The Sony service manuals I have do not explain what LANDING is, but one of the many circulated user-written tables lists your four LANDING numbers as "LCC Controls" for each corner (RT=right top, LB=left bottom etc). I don't know what LCC means, but it might put you one step farther along the path, Justin.


----------



## Justin Fletcher

Thanks for the link. I had seen that post, but his "Try at your own risk" warnings scared me off, which is why I was looking for clarification on what landing actually does. I was also curious as to whether the settings needed to be balanced for each side of the screen (i.e. should I set the bottom right to the same number as the top right?).


Still, he didn't write back in to say "Holy God, my TV exploded!" so if no one can provide any additional info, I may just cross my fingers and give it a shot.


----------



## Costi

Indeed, 4:3 DVD's are a problem. You can set the Oppo in Wide/SQZ mode and then use the TV's zoom, but the proportions are still not accurate and image quality takes a large hit.


One solution here would be to forget upscaling and use 480p, where v-compression is not automatically enabled. But the 480p doesn't work - the image keeps jumping up and down. Component out is useless too, unless you can live with interlaced 480. I've also seen a post by another Sony owner that had the same problem. Oppo + Sony HS TV doesn't seem to work so well, unfortunately ... Oppo tech support was very friendly and willing to help, but they did not know how to fix it. They sent a note to their engineering department. No news since then.


I was hoping I could find some setting in the service menu to turn off the v-comp, but no luck so far.


I'll probably return the Oppo. Although it has better image quality than my old DVD player, the Sony 480p issue and the extensive macroblocking I get from the Faroudja processor make it hard to live with.


I ordered a Sony DVPNS70H from CircuitCity to see how it compares (it arrives tomorrow). Maybe it will do better...


Hopefully you won't have the same issue







(I really don't know if it is a problem for all HS Sony TV's).


----------



## Ayton

Jim,


The links still work for me. I just clicked the "service data chart" attachment and it came right up. Have you got something that can read .pdf files?


----------



## Costi

A quick note: I got the Sony DVPNS70H and hooked it to the 32HS420. I don't have a HDMI-HDMI cable yet, so I used the 480p component output (no upscaling). The image quality is significantly better than the Oppo at 720p over HDMI! It has a significant ... wow factor. I'm curious to see if 70H's 720p will actually improve on that. It would be quite a feat.


From what I see, there's almost no macroblocking, and the image is visibly sharper. I will miss the Divx and the slightly more natural Faroudja colors of the Oppo, but the Sony 70H is a keeper.


It would still be nice to know how to disable that HS420 auto v-comp though. Calling Sony's tech support was a big waste of time ...


----------



## JimPV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Costi* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A quick note: I got the Sony DVPNS70H and hooked it to the 32HS420. The image quality is significantly better than the Oppo at 720p over HDMI! I'm curious to see if 70H's 720p will actually improve on that.



CRTs are incapapable of 720p. I believe they'd "upscale" 720p to 1080i.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimPV* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CRTs are incapapable of 720p. I believe they'd "upscale" 720p to 1080i.



That is news to me...!

What are you basing your conclusions on? I have different settings for 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i in the service menu for my CRT-34XBR960.


----------



## adamwh

As far as I know you cannot disable the 16:9 vertical compression on the 4:3 sets for 720p and 1080i sources. The assumption is if it's 720p or 1080i, it is a 16:9 image. You will have to set your player to output no more than 480p for 4:3 sources.


----------



## JimPV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That is news to me...!
> 
> What are you basing your conclusions on? I have different settings for 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i in the service menu for my CRT-34XBR960.


 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...highlight=720p


----------



## mdtiberi

Does anyone know if there are internal test pattens in the HS series or are they only in the XBR series?


----------



## agunders

First off, great guide - used it to tweak my system to the point that when I had a pro come and correct my color, that was the only thing that was off (and not by much...the clouds do work).


Anyway, need some help on a question I couldn't find an answer to. On my set, when I'm running my PS2 through component input 5 I'm getting color distortion only the edges of the screen, similar to what I'd see if I had speakers next to the set. However, the only speakers are the ones in the TV itself (external speakers are wall mounted several feet away) and I only notice it when using that input. When the ps2 is in 16:9, 480p it's very noticeable, when in 4:3 the only thing I notice are the edges of the screen are slightly lighter than the center. On all my other inputs I don't have this distortion, except on 1080I the extreme upper right corner has a small amount of pink tint when on an all white background.


So, I guess my question is, how do I go about correcting this? As it's only in one mode I'm assuming it's not the internal speakers, but I don't want to change anything that will throw off my color/greyscale now that I've paid to have it set. I'm assuming the are SM codes, but I'm not sure which ones. Any help will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## 30XS955 User

Hello, I'm new here. Well, to an extent. I am what people refer to as a "lurker."


Question: on my 30xs955, my colors are off. Faces appear to have a purplish tint, especially in the lips. Do any people here have similar experiences, and if so, were they remedied by tinkering in the service menu? I am guessing that this is likely a problem associated with the red or green levels, but am just wondering, before I start adjusting things, if this is what people more technically inclined than myself would do. I'm grateful for any replies.


----------



## Ayton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *30XS955 User* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Question: on my 30xs955, my colors are off. Faces appear to have a purplish tint, especially in the lips. Do any people here have similar experiences, and if so, were they remedied by tinkering in the service menu? I am guessing that this is likely a problem associated with the red or green levels, but am just wondering, before I start adjusting things, if this is what people more technically inclined than myself would do. I'm grateful for any replies.



Have you tried simply tweaking the Hue slider?


Also, make sure it's happening on every input before you go altering the service settings; I have a cheapo secondary DVD player that puts out dreadful colors in prog scan mode. Calibration was very confusing until I realized this was the case! I now use my better quality Tosh DVD player to calibrate only.


After both of those points, if you still think the color on your TV is just plain wrong, I'd suggest tweaking the color decoder in the service menu. These are items RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB under the 2170p-4 heading in your service menu. Search these forums and elsewhere for "RYR" and you'll get better info than I can give. I've done this calibration in conjunction with DVE dozens of times and it's nothing to be scared of. Also look up RGBS, a service menu item for selectively disabling the color guns that makes this process much easier.


I am very much an amateur tweaker. Apologies to the pros if I've made the wrong assumption here.


----------



## 30XS955 User

Thanks for the suggestions, Ayton.


FYI, it's happening with over the air HDTV, and I have tried sliding the hue around.


I'll give your suggestions a try.


----------



## forgette

*I own a Sony KF-50XBR800. I also have a service manual for it. I notice there are several service code settings above the printed codes in the manual. I have corrected a problem I had by changing the value of POS CTL to recenter the main menu Image Revision setting. That works great now. However, I some how or another turned off the picture frame in twin view. While I can still switch between pics, I have no (blue) frame. Does anyone know which code I need to turn it bac k on?*


----------



## Dr_EluSivE

I have a 30xs955 and i have noticed a slight shift to the right on most things that are displayed. (horizontal alignment) Its very obvious with the THX test patterns on some of the DVDs i own, and also during sports when they have a scoreline up. Also After using the memory stick and Patterns posted here (namely the 16x9 dot pattern) it looks like the convergence is off in the lower right. What are the service menu options to fix these things.. I DO NOT want to mess with stuff just for the heck of it.. i want to fix only what i notice and leave the rest alone. I cant afford to screw this tv up. Also, does anyone know if sony's warrenty will cover In home, professional calibration? Thanks!


Dr.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr_EluSivE* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a 30xs955 and i have noticed a slight shift to the right on most things that are displayed. (horizontal alignment) Its very obvious with the THX test patterns on some of the DVDs i own, and also during sports when they have a scoreline up. Also After using the Patterns posted here (namwly the 16x9 dot pattern it looks like the convergence is off in the lower right. What are the service menu options to fix these things.. I DO NOT want to mess with stuff just for the heck of it.. i want to fix only what i notice and leave the rest alone. I cant afford to screw this tv up. Also, does anyone know if sony's warrenty will cover In home, professional calibration? Thanks!
> 
> 
> Dr.



First you need to determine if it is all inputs that are shifted to the right...


As always - write down existing settings before changing.


1) If all - The global centering entry for all inputs is 2170D-2, 0, HCNT. This controls the "default" raster, or frame. that your TV is displaying the picture on. If by adjusting to the left you run out of sync, in the right hand side, adjust back to the original setting, and use the global 2170D-2, 1, HPOS setting instead.

2) If 480i - The entry is MID2, 0, DRHP.

3) If all others - The entry is MID33, 0, VDHP. You have to adjust this setting for all the inputs, different than 480i.


The convergence setting for the lower right is D-CONV, 4, RUBW.


No, Sony will not pay for a professional calibration.


----------



## Dr_EluSivE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First you need to determine if it is all inputs that are shifted to the right...
> 
> 
> As always - write down existing settings before changing.
> 
> 
> 1) If all - The global centering entry for all inputs is 2170D-2, 0, HCNT. This controls the "default" raster, or frame. that your TV is displaying the picture on. If by adjusting to the left you run out of sync, in the right hand side, adjust back to the original setting, and use the global 2170D-2, 1, HPOS setting instead.
> 
> 2) If 480i - The entry is MID2, 0, DRHP.
> 
> 3) If all others - The entry is MID33, 0, VDHP. You have to adjust this setting for all the inputs, different than 480i.
> 
> 
> The convergence setting for the lower right is D-CONV, 4, RUBW.
> 
> 
> No, Sony will not pay for a professional calibration.



Thanks, i got the H-Centering Perfect now, it was off quite a bit. I had to shrink the H-Size a bit, and then shift it left. Now its great. I tried the D-CONV #4 and it didnt seem to make any difference at all 0-63 seemed to look exactly the same (default 22) so i just left it at the stock setting. the amount its off probably isnt enough to even make a difference during normal viewing, the Dots really point out the flaws.. Thanks for the help though, i did atleast get one issue (the worst one) fixed.


Dr.


----------



## mdtiberi

Calibratred my 34HS420 using Avia, Spyder and the spreadsheet from the Calibration forum. After getting comfortable with the Spyders data I dived into service menu. Overall I am happy with the end results, I can now see shadow detail, but the new settings are far from the defaults. All of the xCUTs are set higher, especially the red which is now at 61. This tells me that G2 is set too high since it takes more voltage to temper the guns. I could lower G2 buy would have to open up my set which would then let me lower xCUTs. I guess what I would like to know from the more experienced folks out there is does it really matter?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimPV* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So does anybody know if it's possible to disable the v-compression on Sony HS420 sets? It's automatically engaged over the HDMI connection, which means a 4:3 DVD cannot be upconverted to 1080i over the HDMI input (it squeezes it to 16:9).



How do you receive your TV signal...?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimPV* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> DVD player via the HDMI input. I've got a new Oppo player and a DVD at 1080i over the HDMI connection is _automatically_ squeezed to 16:9. This is fine for widescreen, anamorphic DVDs but non-anamorphic letterboxed or 4:3 DVDs are squeezed as well (which ain't fine...!).
> 
> 
> I can watch 4:3 material via the Oppo's component connections and let the TV do the upscaling, of course. But sure would be nice to be able to _turn off_ the HS420's v-compression so I can watch 4:3 discs over the digital connection.



Not sure if this helps, but there is a new firmware upgrade that claims to fix the problem: http://www.oppodigital.com/opdv971h_support.html


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimPV* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> DVD player via the HDMI input. I've got a new Oppo player and a DVD at 1080i over the HDMI connection is _automatically_ squeezed to 16:9. This is fine for widescreen, anamorphic DVDs but non-anamorphic letterboxed or 4:3 DVDs are squeezed as well (which ain't fine...!).
> 
> 
> I can watch 4:3 material via the Oppo's component connections and let the TV do the upscaling, of course. But sure would be nice to be able to _turn off_ the HS420's v-compression so I can watch 4:3 discs over the digital connection.




or...


Q: My 4:3 content is being stetched. Why is that and how to fix it?

A: The OPDV971H automatically stretches 4:3 content to fit a widescreen display if the TV Display in the General Setup menu is set to Wide. For the best possible playback of 4:3 content, set the TV Display to Wide/SQZ.


----------



## MaxDam77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mdtiberi* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Calibratred my 34HS420 using Avia, Spyder and the spreadsheet from the Calibration forum. After getting comfortable with the Spyders data I dived into service menu. Overall I am happy with the end results, I can now see shadow detail, but the new settings are far from the defaults. All of the xCUTs are set higher, especially the red which is now at 61. This tells me that G2 is set too high since it takes more voltage to temper the guns. I could lower G2 buy would have to open up my set which would then let me lower xCUTs. I guess what I would like to know from the more experienced folks out there is does it really matter?



Wow, 61 is really high, mine are around mid section all three of them. I own the 30HS420 wich it is basically the same set. Can you tell me your settings for the GCUT & BCUT aswell? I'd like to test it on my set.


----------



## JimPV

My set is automatically assuming a 1080i signal via the HDMI input is 16:9, and is enabling the v-compression. My display isn't widescreen.


The v-compression on Sony HS420 sets has only two settings: on and automatic. No off. Some of us have been hoping we could turn the v-compression off in the service menu somewhere.


Others have asked about this. Thought I'd try _one more time_ and see if anybody knew anything.


EDIT: Just found out if I put the Oppo in "wide/squeeze" mode, over the HDMI connect it will come out window-boxed on my screen. Then I can use the zoom feature on the Sony to fill the screen with the image.


See my thread, "Sony HS420s: i, p, and 'CineMotion'...?" if interested.


----------



## mdtiberi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MaxDam77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow, 61 is really high, mine are around mid section all three of them. I own the 30HS420 wich it is basically the same set. Can you tell me your settings for the GCUT & BCUT aswell? I'd like to test it on my set.




Didn't like RCUT to so high, I lowered the settings for the xDRVs and xCUTs proportianally form their original settings. After calibrating with the Spyder and the colorimeter spreadsheet the values I settled on, at least for now are:


SBRT - 21

RCUT, RDRV - 51, 36

GCUT, GDRV - 28, 27

BCUT, BDRV - 38, 23

GAMR, GAMG, GAMB - 2, 2, 1


All CRTs are different to some degree so my settings may be completely useless for your set.


----------



## MaxDam77

Thanks, I'l check it out to see how it looks on mine.


----------



## gutwrencher

Can someone maybe help me out? I have Bronchitis this week and just don't feel like scanning through 20 pages.


Is there a fix for the following?


When watching a standard/digital program with bars on the sides....the bottom of my left side seems to bow outwards slightly. It's far from a straight line from top to bottom. My pc moniter has adjustments to tweak these types of problems. Is this found in the service mode for my tv?


Also, can the purple splotch in the upper right corner also be fixed in service mode?


Thanks for any help.


----------



## JimPV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gutwrencher* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When watching a standard/digital program with bars on the sides....the bottom of my left side seems to bow outwards slightly. It's far from a straight line from top to bottom. Is this found in the service mode for my tv?



Very likely yes. Geometry problems can be tweaked in the SM. You _probably_ won't be able to get perfect geometry, however. That's kind of the nature of the beast with CRTs.


For an HS420, check out menu options VPOS _through_ ZOOM, and HCNT _through_ LBOW. These are all the main geometry settings. there may be more (?), but likely these will be enough to fix the problem.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gutwrencher* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, can the purple splotch in the upper right corner also be fixed in service mode?



This I'm less sure about. I have a slight blue tint in the upper right corner. I've not tried to fix it in the SM yet, but frankly it's very slight so I've not really made the effort. Seems I've heard some of these "blob" problems being unfixable short of having a calibrationist out to install special magnets in your set







. I'm far from an expert, though.


Hope you feel better.


----------



## Justin Fletcher




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimPV* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This I'm less sure about. I have a slight blue tint in the upper right corner. I've not tried to fix it in the SM yet, but frankly it's very slight so I've not really made the effort. Seems I've heard some of these "blob" problems being unfixable short of having a calibrationist out to install special magnets in your set
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I'm far from an expert, though.



Try tweaking the landing setting for that corner of the screen in the SM. I don't know what it does, and judging from when I asked about it a few pages back, no one else does either. However, it made the splotch in my upper right corner go away.


----------



## Justin Fletcher

Sorry if this was already covered. The search results for the thread were inconclusive.


I've been operating under the assumption that there are separate setting memories for 480, 720, and 1080 on my XBR960. However, I have an underscanned 720 source on input 6 and a cable 1080 source on input 7 and there positions seem to be linked. If I center the screen horizontally on the 720 feed, the 1080 feed is off. If I fix the 1080, the 720 is off. I've currently centered the 720 feed, because the 1080 feed still has overscan to cover the screen. However, all the titles on programs aren't centered which annoys by obsessive soul.


Is there any way to address this or do all widescreen feeds share the same settings?


----------



## JimPV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Justin Fletcher* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Try tweaking the landing setting for that corner of the screen in the SM. ...it made the splotch in my upper right corner go away.



Hmmmmm, will give that a try. Does it have a funky abbreviation in the SM?


----------



## Justin Fletcher

I think it's just "Landing" or "Land" or something obvious like that. RT stands for Right Top, RB stands for Right Bottom, and I'm betting you can figure out the other two.


----------



## MaxDam77

I have a question about my set KV30hs420, It's being a while like that and I checked the geometry with the avia disk; 480i for the GC, 480p for the DVD and 1080i for GT4 on PS2 are all centered and almost 100% right but when I play my PS2 games in 480p, the screen is off center, more on the right. If I tweak the MID3 menu and center it for the PS2 in 480p, then the DVD is off center. I decided to leave the 480p centered for the DVD since the 480i on my PS2 look just as good. But if there is a way to fix it, I'd really appreciate it.


----------



## Jaded

anyone know how to fix this problem?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=599482


----------



## JimPV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jaded* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> anyone know how to fix this problem?
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=599482



I agree with biznus97: sounds like phosphor trailing to me. Proper calibration is all you can do about phosphor trailing. As far as I know, it's something of the nature of CRTs.


Maybe you could post a pic.?


----------



## Jaded

no cam to take a pic. so you think it can be fixed with proper calibration? if so what settings do i tune in the SM?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MaxDam77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a question about my set KV30hs420, It's being a while like that and I checked the geometry with the avia disk; 480i for the GC, 480p for the DVD and 1080i for GT4 on PS2 are all centered and almost 100% right but when I play my PS2 games in 480p, the screen is off center, more on the right. If I tweak the MID3 menu and center it for the PS2 in 480p, then the DVD is off center. I decided to leave the 480p centered for the DVD since the 480i on my PS2 look just as good. But if there is a way to fix it, I'd really appreciate it.



480i signals must be corrected in MID2.


----------



## JimPV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jaded* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> no cam to take a pic. so you think it can be fixed with proper calibration? if so what settings do i tune in the SM?



The extent to which I understand it, you can calibrate your set as well as possible and it will diminish phosphor trailing, but your probably still gonna' notice it sometimes. It's just the nature of CRT technology.


Read and study the SM calibration tutorials toward the beginning of this thread. That's what I'm trying to do.


----------



## Jaded

oh man there is alot to learn here. ill be here forever


----------



## hywdx80

I'm experiencing a lot of ghosting / trailing on my xbr960. This is giving me a lot of eye strain and head aches. Is there anything in the service menu to fix this issue? Or is this permanent because it is in 1080i @ 30 fps and my eye can notice such things? Maybe my xbr 960 have a DLP chip some where in it?


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hywdx80* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm experiencing a lot of ghosting / trailing on my xbr960. This is giving me a lot of eye strain and head aches. Is there anything in the service menu to fix this issue? Or is this permanent because it is in 1080i @ 30 fps and my eye can notice such things? Maybe my xbr 960 have a DLP chip some where in it?



What picture mode, contrast, brightness and sharpness settings are you using? Does it still happen in the Pro or Movie mode?


----------



## hywdx80

Pro, Picture 42, Brightness 28, color 31, sharpness 31, Color Warm, Clearedge VM off, Monitor. I also used most of the service tweaks so I believe sharpness and clearedge are off in the service menu.


----------



## GlenC

The phosphor speed is usually pretty good on CRTs, my guess would be the ghosting would have something to do with the game digital graphics and an analog display. The XBR960 will show everything in the signal.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hywdx80* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> sharpness 31



Have you experimented with sharpness=MIN for your HD inputs?


This does not inject any "softening" or "blurring" (i.e. going into negative sharpness as some other sets do). For the XBR960 it simply completely eliminates all artificially added edge enhancement (and associated video noise) to the right of the zero point. In other words, sharpness=MIN turns edge enhancement completely off. You see the true picture that is being broadcast.


The result is quite different from your sharpness=31 and will take a bit of getting used to if you're accustomed to the artificial edge-enhancement associated with having any positive sharpness value. But within just a few minutes it will hopefully look like "true reality" to you and you'll hopefully marvel at what the XBR960 looks like when displaying exactly the image that is being broadcast... with zero extra edging. You'll wonder why you never tried this before.


You'll be amazed at what the US Open tennis court and Augusta National grass at the Masters looks like with sharpness=MIN. It's like you're looking through a window, except that there's no glass! You're actually looking through just a window frame!


Same with "live on tape" shows like Leno, SNL, Conan, Letterman, etc. You really should try sharpness=MIN.


----------



## hywdx80




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you experimented with sharpness=MIN for your HD inputs?
> 
> 
> This does not inject any "softening" or "blurring" (i.e. going into negative sharpness as some other sets do). For the XBR960 it simply completely eliminates all artificially added edge enhancement (and associated video noise) to the right of the zero point. In other words, sharpness=MIN turns edge enhancement completely off. You see the true picture that is being broadcast.
> 
> 
> The result is quite different from your sharpness=31 and will take a bit of getting used to if you're accustomed to the artificial edge-enhancement associated with having any positive sharpness value. But within just a few minutes it will hopefully look like "true reality" to you and you'll hopefully marvel at what the XBR960 looks like when displaying exactly the image that is being broadcast... with zero extra edging. You'll wonder why you never tried this before.
> 
> 
> You'll be amazed at what the US Open tennis court and Augusta National grass at the Masters looks like with sharpness=MIN. It's like you're looking through a window, except that there's no glass! You're actually looking through just a window frame!
> 
> 
> Same with "live on tape" shows like Leno, SNL, Conan, Letterman, etc. You really should try sharpness=MIN.



I put the sharpness to min. It's some times hard to spot out trailings / ghostings. This thread right here : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6470733 is a good example of what happens.

I put the sharpness to min and still did some of the service menu tweaks on the dvd players input (input 6). Its a progressive scan sony player threw component. I have the same issues has listed with the link with ghosting.


----------



## JimPV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hywdx80* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Pro, Picture 42...



Does 42 for "picture"/white level not seem awfully high to you guys (I assume that's 42 ticks up from the bottom on the scale)? I've got a 36HS420 and I've got my white level _13 ticks_ up, and it's plenty bright.


I realize it's a different set and display settings are pretty relative anyway, but still...


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimPV* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does 42 for "picture"/white level not seem awfully high to you guys



It probably depends on brightness and other tweak factors and the particular input and source device, but I would agree that this seems pretty high.


My D* SD input picture/brightness is set at (39,33) and OTA SD is set at (40,34). But my HD inputs are much lower: DVD=(34,36), 720p/1080i=(35,32), HDMI=(35,32), and iLink=(34,31).


But to each his own I guess. Depends on what looks good to you in your viewing conditions.


----------



## hywdx80

Well this is my second set. The first set of the xbr960 the brightness and contrast levels were way different to get the image to look bright enough on the screen. I believe I had the contrast / brightness about 10 clicks down on the first xbr960. On this tv the brightness is different and I have about 10 clicks up for the contrast / brightness. I guess this is why no tv is the same.


----------



## fred33

Could I get some help?

I did a major NO NO and made some adjustments with out writing down factory numbers.









At first I lost some of my menu items, I lost my PIP. I did some tweaking in the ID area and some of the menus came back.

I was wondering if anyone might share their settings in regards to this part of the service menu?


thanks


SONY KD-34XBR960


----------



## FlasHBurN

Hi Guys,


So I have had some great success with adjusting overscan on my 32" 4:3 Sony HDTV.


I now noticed a couple of other problems I would like to fix.


I am not sure what this is called, but at the top of the screen lines start slanting to the right some, and then to a greater extent on the bottom of the screen they slant to the left.


My other problem is that it seems like whites are bleeding through the sides of the screen (almost like it looks like a backlit LCD), and also on the tops and bottoms. It is noticable only when bright colors are near the tops and bottoms (white being the worst).


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could I get some help?
> 
> I did a major NO NO and made some adjustments with out writing down factory numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At first I lost some of my menu items, I lost my PIP. I did some tweaking in the ID area and some of the menus came back.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone might share their settings in regards to this part of the service menu?
> 
> 
> thanks




Info about model would be good...?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FlasHBurN* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure what this is called, but at the top of the screen lines start slanting to the right some, and then to a greater extent on the bottom of the screen they slant to the left.
> 
> 
> My other problem is that it seems like whites are bleeding through the sides of the screen (almost like it looks like a backlit LCD), and also on the tops and bottoms. It is noticable only when bright colors are near the tops and bottoms (white being the worst).



Is it the whole top and bottom of the screen that's slanting right and left...?


The bleeding can be fixed with the blanking function. Search on blanking in this forum, there are several good suggestions.


----------



## FlasHBurN




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is it the whole top and bottom of the screen that's slanting right and left...?
> 
> 
> The bleeding can be fixed with the blanking function. Search on blanking in this forum, there are several good suggestions.



Yes, it is the whole top and bottom...it looks something like this (but not quite as drastic)...


top

//////////////

||||||||||||||

||||||||||||||

||||||||||||||

//////////////


bottom



I read post 265 about blanking, and messed with the setting some, but nothing appeared to help it.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FlasHBurN* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, it is the whole top and bottom...it looks something like this (but not quite as drastic)...
> 
> 
> top
> 
> //////////////
> 
> ||||||||||||||
> 
> ||||||||||||||
> 
> ||||||||||||||
> 
> //////////////
> 
> 
> bottom
> 
> 
> 
> I read post 265 about blanking, and messed with the setting some, but nothing appeared to help it.



- Check the attachment on #409.


- Blanking was my best bet.


----------



## Justin Fletcher




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Justin Fletcher* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry if this was already covered. The search results for the thread were inconclusive.
> 
> 
> I've been operating under the assumption that there are separate setting memories for 480, 720, and 1080 on my XBR960. However, I have an underscanned 720 source on input 6 and a cable 1080 source on input 7 and there positions seem to be linked. If I center the screen horizontally on the 720 feed, the 1080 feed is off. If I fix the 1080, the 720 is off. I've currently centered the 720 feed, because the 1080 feed still has overscan to cover the screen. However, all the titles on programs aren't centered which annoys by obsessive soul.
> 
> 
> Is there any way to address this or do all widescreen feeds share the same settings?



OK, so it appears not to be the resolution that's the issue but the input. My cable box DVR with the 1080 feed was going into the HDMI input. Having bought a new DVD player, I switched the DVR to component; the problem was immediately solved. I attached the DVD player through HDMI; you guessed it, the problem is still there. So apparently the HDMI input horizontal position is out of whack with the component and antenna positions. Is there a service menu setting other than 2170D-2 that will adjust the horizontal position of *just* the HDMI input?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Justin Fletcher* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK, so it appears not to be the resolution that's the issue but the input. My cable box DVR with the 1080 feed was going into the HDMI input. Having bought a new DVD player, I switched the DVR to component; the problem was immediately solved. I attached the DVD player through HDMI; you guessed it, the problem is still there. So apparently the HDMI input horizontal position is out of whack with the component and antenna positions. Is there a service menu setting other than 2170D-2 that will adjust the horizontal position of *just* the HDMI input?



MID3, 0-3 controls, vertical and horisontal size and position. All scan sizes except 480i, which is done in MID2, 0-3.


Remember you can only do this if the "default" raster/frame has been set correctly using 2170D-1 and -2. Read back in this forum for more info.


----------



## Justin Fletcher

Crap. I didn't read the most recent posts closely enough. This was on the last page, for chrissakes!


Thanks so much! It did the trick and fixed something that's been driving me nuts for weeks.


----------



## fred33

OOOPS

Its a SONY KD-34XBR960


----------



## Nambit

It seems my 40XBR800 doesn't have the LANDING option on it (to help rid discoloration). I've searched everywhere but no luck. It must have been added for even later models. Anyhow, is there anything I can do to get rid of a slight discoloration on the top left (no magnets for me)? I suspect I might have to bear with it.


Nam.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OOOPS
> 
> Its a SONY KD-34XBR960



0 - 89

1 - 255

2 - 255

3 - 111

4 - 203

5 - 207

6 - 62

7 - 25


Some of the service manuals have 7 - 19, but that is wrong...!


----------



## fred33

In your opinion, might they be the same setting for most xbr960's?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In your opinion, might they be the same setting for most xbr960's?



Those are the factory settings for 34XBR960. Do you still have problems?


----------



## mr2828

Regarding the Landing settings. I finally tried those out tonight on my mild color purity issues, and it actually seems to have solved about 80 or 90% of the problem.


It wasn't too bad to start off with, small blue areas in top right and left side in bright white scenes, and medium sized slightly red area on right/right-lower in white/yellow scenes.


The Landing 0 through 3 definitely helped, thanks for the tip.


----------



## Nambit

Snif... no landing settings for 40xbr800 it seems...


----------



## loadams

Nope, but I started out in 2002 with them in all 4 corners. By some act of what, today I only have the top left corner. Maybe someone is looking out for me, dunno no.


----------



## agunders

Another question on my 30xs955:


Lately I've noticed I've developed what seems to be a convergence problem. On any vertical line I get a slight transparent distortion next to it on the right. Almost like a "ghost" image of the line but only a milimeter or two from the other. This is occurring on all inputs and I've tried literally everything and I can't get rid of it. If it was only on my cable feed I'd chalk it up to a bad feed, but even on my DVD input and my 360 I get the same problem. I've played around with convergence and I can't get it to correct. I've also tried moving wires, speakers, etc...to make sure it was something electrical or magnetic effecting the beam, but no improvement. Of course, it didn't show up until after my 30 return window has past. I don't notice it unless I'm close to the set, such as when I sit and play the 360, but it's driving me insane. Anyone have any tips, or is this something that will need to be fix internally? I'll try to post a picture later that shows the problem. Thanks.


----------



## redhatyellow

Can someone please post the Service Menu PDF/DOC for the XBR960? Every link I have tried through the search have been dead.


THANKS!


----------



## SmithRLS

*My 34XBR910 may be haunted!*


About a month ago I put in a DVD and the the picture looked very bright and lots of enhancement. I have pro mode optomized for my DVD player. I push the XBR menue button and find the contrast turned up and SVM on high! I have spent much time with AVIA and DVE for optimum adjustment and the user settings are not where I left them? My kids are grown and gone, had no recent visitors and my wife uses the Satellite receiver romote so has no access to the menue function (only on/off volume) and swears she didn't change anything. Ok, maybe I forgot doing something....You guessed it, it happened again! We come home from a 4 day trip to visit my daughter and now the user settings have changer in standard picture mode! No one home, security system on, all electronics powered down...

Only standard mode user settings changed. SM settings as I set them. Reset user settings again and everything works fine.


Now a new, possibly unrelated, symptom. Last night my wife asks "what's that red light on the front of the TV." It's the memory stick indicator light. I push the memory stick button on the remote, no response. Manual says light indicates reading data on memory stick. I don't own a memory stick! TV working fine and I don't need memory stick so my first thought is put tape over red light and ignore it. But first I try a few obvious things; unplug TV for a few hours, no change; hold reset button and cycle power to reset to factory settings, no change except now had to put all user settings back to my preferences and redo the annoying initial set up process.


Sooo, is my XBR haunted? Am I losing my memory (and memory stick)? Anyone experienced anything similar? I am concerned these are early symptoms of impending computer failure.


Thanks for any suggestions


Rick


----------



## mr2828

I seem to recall long ago that the 960s had a bug where they could lose some user settings. There was a firmware upgrade you could do by getting a service tech to come out and load a special memory stick into your set.


Maybe you should ask them if there's an upgrade available for your set. Otherwise it sounds like it may be developing some other problem.


----------



## redhatyellow

Hey guys,


What other things besides SBRT and YOF can i use to tweak black levels?


BTW -- WHAT IS YOF ANYWAY? It was originally at 12 and I turned it up all the way to 15, which seems to lighten up shadows (which is what Im trying to do).


I tried raising RCUT, BCUT & GCUT to no avail. Didnt seem to make much a difference.


What else can I try to crush the black crush?


----------



## jjmilo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SmithRLS* /forum/post/0
> 
> *My 34XBR910 may be haunted!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sooo, is my XBR haunted? Am I losing my memory (and memory stick)? Anyone experienced anything similar? I am concerned these are early symptoms of impending computer failure.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions
> 
> 
> Rick



I had a similar experience with my 34XBR910. I called sony Service and arranged for a sony authorized service tech to come. The solution was to replace the memory stick module board. Has worked fine since.


----------



## DeepFreezed




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *redhatyellow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> 
> What other things besides SBRT and YOF can i use to tweak black levels?
> 
> 
> BTW -- WHAT IS YOF ANYWAY? It was originally at 12 and I turned it up all the way to 15, which seems to lighten up shadows (which is what Im trying to do).
> 
> 
> I tried raising RCUT, BCUT & GCUT to no avail. Didnt seem to make much a difference.
> 
> 
> What else can I try to crush the black crush?



what about GAMMA correction?

talks about it on page 1.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You're welcome very, very much!
> 
> If your darkest grays are satisfactory in color, meaning they're a neutral gray, not reddish or bluish or something, then I would leave them alone. Make the major adjustment with SBRT, no matter what value it ends up with. That guarantees you won't screw up the color. (I'm only guessing that changing RCUT-BCUT by the same amount leaves the color untouched. Maybe they actually don't track perfectly.)
> 
> Yes. Smoky-gray blacks indicate a *high* black level for that source (coming into the TV), and you should consider lowering UBOF for that input or leaving it at zero and lowering SBRT.
> 
> That really does seem like a good strategy, as I certainly can't say how black behaves on your DVD player's component outputs. But if you know that DVD/component black is higher than DVD/S-video (i.e. its blacks are smoky), then you can set the component DVD connection to UBOF = 0 (and ignore DVD/S-video), and the other inputs and broadcast will likely be set to a higher UBOF. You might have to go through this process twice to get it right.



this may also be helpful....


----------



## SmithRLS

mr2828 / jjmilo,


Thanks for the information. Although it sounds like the memory stick and user settings loss are not related, the memory stick function is needed to fix the user setting problem. As my 2 year warranty expires in the next 2 weeks I guess I should forget covering and ignoring the memory stick light and call for a warranty service visit.


Any other experiences would still be appreciated.


Regards, Rick


----------



## fred33




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Those are the factory settings for 34XBR960. Do you still have problems?



You factory settings worked great! Thanks!!! \\

I have the service manual and the settings in there are umm how should I say..."not right" LOL


----------



## Finalheaven

Anyone else use the service menu to calibrate their KV30HS420?


I've resolved to calibrate my system using it, but I was hoping to get in touch with someone that's been through it before.


If you like, you can send me a PM and we can discuss it. I'm trying to wrap my head around all these different service codes. Not very easy.


----------



## Undead Hero

I have a problem with my KD34XBR960. There seems to be a bluish/purplish color in the bottom left corner that bleeds into the rest of the image. I was told that this could be caused by electrical interference, so I moved everything electrical away from the TV and unplugged it for about 4 hours. Didn't help any. So then I hear two other things i've yet to check out: one person who had this exact problem with this exact model said they got a Sony rep to look at it, and he needed to adjust something with the calibration. Another person suggested messing with some kind of option that deals with how the earth's magnetic field can affect the TV, but I found no such option.


Basically what i'm getting at, is is there any option in the service menu that could help a problem like this? I'm very new to this kind of thing, and would rather not just go in and start messing with stuff. My last resort will have to be shelling out money to have someone come out and fix it, but i'd rather avoid that.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finalheaven* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone else use the service menu to calibrate their KV30HS420?
> 
> 
> I've resolved to calibrate my system using it, but I was hoping to get in touch with someone that's been through it before.
> 
> 
> If you like, you can send me a PM and we can discuss it. I'm trying to wrap my head around all these different service codes. Not very easy.



I have use the SM to make some adjustments to my 34HS420. And access to the SM is required to perform some of the trickier elements of calibration (e.g. overscan, sharpness, etc).


My efforts have been those of a newbie following the directions of others. Go ahead and PM me and I can at least point you to some helpful posts.


----------



## mr2828




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Undead Hero* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a problem with my KD34XBR960. There seems to be a bluish/purplish color in the bottom left corner that bleeds into the rest of the image. I was told that this could be caused by electrical interference, so I moved everything electrical away from the TV and unplugged it for about 4 hours. Didn't help any. So then I hear two other things i've yet to check out: one person who had this exact problem with this exact model said they got a Sony rep to look at it, and he needed to adjust something with the calibration. Another person suggested messing with some kind of option that deals with how the earth's magnetic field can affect the TV, but I found no such option.
> 
> 
> Basically what i'm getting at, is is there any option in the service menu that could help a problem like this? I'm very new to this kind of thing, and would rather not just go in and start messing with stuff. My last resort will have to be shelling out money to have someone come out and fix it, but i'd rather avoid that.




I had some success recently fixing some color purity blotches on my 960 using the LANDING settings in service mode.


----------



## Jaded

i just noticed that the edges on my 30HS420 are slightly blurry(not as focused as the center). has anyone tried the focus codes?


----------



## Finalheaven




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jaded* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i just noticed that the edges on my 30HS420 are slightly blurry(not as focused as the center). has anyone tried the focus codes?



I actually just did a calibration of my 30HS420 last night. I went a slew of codes, although not even close to as many as KenTech.


I basically went through and fiddled with: HPOS,HSIZ,VPOS,and VSIZ for size and position. GYR, GYB, RYR and RYB for color, UBOF and SBRT for black levels, and QPAM thru QPDP, DF, and DQP for focus and clarity.


I would've done more with color, but KenTech's post outlines using clouds as a white reference. I was calibrating at night, and I wanted a more reliable method. So I used DVE with the filters, and the color codes mentioned above. I have actually gotten VERY good color results now.


The focus codes also did a wonderful job on my picture especially with SMTPE 133 res. pattern.


I was watching some HD and SD content yesterday, and I am very pleased with the results. My only gripe is that the whites seem too white and the blacks seem too black. So I'll continue to do a little more adjusting, but Brightness and Picture in the Video Options should suit me just fine.


If you'd like to know the group codes for the items mentioned above, feel free to PM me. Anything I know, I learned from Justc, Crockhunter, and KenTech of course.


----------



## Undead Hero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mr2828* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I had some success recently fixing some color purity blotches on my 960 using the LANDING settings in service mode.



Do you know the code for this setting? I can't find anything like it.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finalheaven* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I actually just did a calibration of my 30HS420 last night. I went a slew of codes, although not even close to as many as KenTech.
> 
> 
> I basically went through and fiddled with: HPOS,HSIZ,VPOS,and VSIZ for size and position. GYR, GYB, RYR and RYB for color, UBOF and SBRT for black levels, and QPAM thru QPDP, DF, and DQP for focus and clarity.
> 
> 
> I would've done more with color, but KenTech's post outlines using clouds as a white reference. I was calibrating at night, and I wanted a more reliable method. So I used DVE with the filters, and the color codes mentioned above. I have actually gotten VERY good color results now.
> 
> 
> The focus codes also did a wonderful job on my picture especially with SMTPE 133 res. pattern.
> 
> 
> I was watching some HD and SD content yesterday, and I am very pleased with the results. My only gripe is that the whites seem too white and the blacks seem too black. So I'll continue to do a little more adjusting, but Brightness and Picture in the Video Options should suit me just fine.
> 
> 
> If you'd like to know the group codes for the items mentioned above, feel free to PM me. Anything I know, I learned from Justc, Crockhunter, and KenTech of course.



This is very good news. Congratulations are in order.


I also have times when whites are a bit too white - like when watching football in bright sunlight, the players white pants or jerseys can seem very "overexposed."


Isn't it wild how much better your PQ can be with relatively few adjustments?


----------



## mr2828




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Undead Hero* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you know the code for this setting? I can't find anything like it.



LAND 0 through 9


on my 960. If you don't have a 960, you may not have these?


----------



## Undead Hero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mr2828* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> LAND 0 through 9
> 
> 
> on my 960. If you don't have a 960, you may not have these?



You are a little angel, you know that? Haha.


I thought I was gonna have to spend several hundred dollars getting this fixed, but that did it. Had to change one of the settings (think it was 7) from 0 to 1.


----------



## CPanther95

I've searched the thread and found a number of you that have adjusted for overscan, but not a lot of details on the specifics. Can someone do a quick walkthrough of a "surgical strike" of getting in, reducing overscan (on HDMI input), and getting out? I've got a 34HS420.


Thanks.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CPanther95* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've searched the thread and found a number of you that have adjusted for overscan, but not a lot of details on the specifics. Can someone do a quick walkthrough of a "surgical strike" of getting in, reducing overscan (on HDMI input), and getting out? I've got a 34HS420.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



You need to be able to put up a test pattern to correct for overscan. That can be difficult to do directly on your HDMI input unless you have an upconverting dvd player connected there. Most of us use either the Avia or DVE calibration discs since they include all the test patterns you need. The only other way to do this on the HDMI input is to somehow get a test pattern broadcast to you - with Comcast Digital Cable, INHD broadcasts test patterns every Saturday morning at 4am EST. And they do put up such a pattern.


Once you have a test pattern you can use VPOS & VSIZ (in the Service Menu) to adjust for overscan vertically and HPOS & HSIZ for the horizontal.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CPanther95* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've searched the thread and found a number of you that have adjusted for overscan, but not a lot of details on the specifics.



This is meant to be humorous, right? I'm not trying to be facetious, but this subject has honestly been discussed in great detail in several threads... especially in a number of recent threads posted by new XBOX owners seeking to tweak their Sony sets (e.g. XBR960) to eliminate overscan.


Assuming you're into the service menu (and are familiar with how it is entered, used, saved, and exited), the primary recipe approach is fundamentally twofold: (1) use the VPOS and VSIZ items in the 2170D-1 group, and the HPOS and HSIZ items in the 2170D-2 service menu group, to adjust the "background raster" (aka "canvas") in both horizontal and vertical directions. Then (2) in the MID3 group you use 0 (VDHP horizontal position), 1 (VDHS horizontal size), 2 (VDVE vertical position) and 3 (VDVS vertical size) to manipulate the 1080i/720p "image" on top of the "background" (i.e. within the "background raster").


2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are used to adjust the "canvas" to reach to the physical edges of the screen, so that the image then placed on top of it can utilize all available screen real estate. MID3 is used for the 1080i and 720p image size and placement adjustments, within the background raster area set by 2170D-1 and 2170D-2. You position and size the image over the background so that it is fully visible and reaches to the extreme edges of the background for 0% overscan. Then you enlarge it just a bit more in all four directions (using the test pattern on your screen as the guide) to "crop" out the video noise which you may see at 0% overscan, losing perhaps 1-2% of the image in this final "overscan" adjustment.


As you get into each part of the adjustments, clicking up or down one unit at a time so that you see the precise results of your tweak, you focus on getting the extreme outer edge of the test pattern rectangle visible on your screen. When you're done (at 0% overscan), the complete rectangle should be totally visible on all four sides. No wasted screen, and nothing eliminated (at 0% overscan).


There is an assumption that you have a proper 16:9 test pattern on your screen, the best of which can be found attached to this post which if you can connect your PC to your HDTV is ideal. If you have a video card like ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, it has a second DVI head and you can connect it to your Sony with a DVI-to-HDMI cable setup. Or, you can get the ATI DVI-to-component adapter and connect the second head to your Sony with component video cables.


Otherwise, you can use Avia or DVE DVD's to display geometry and overscan test patterns, though at 480p. Using DVE, you can go to Title 12 (Display Setup Patterns) and then Chapter 17 (1:33 overscan pattern), with the latter "spread" to 16:9 by the MODE button on your remote.


"Blow-by-blow" as well as instructions for service menu entry, exit and use, can be found in this post .


A bit more editorializing can be found in this post 


Hope this helps.


----------



## CPanther95

Perfect, thanks.


----------



## XDanX

Hello everyone well first off before I ask any questions I would like to thank everyone who posts here for the wonderful information that I've gotten from this thread and board so far, its really made me happy with my purchase of my kv30hs420. Now for my question, when I watch dvd's and other things like games words sometimes appear to be blurred to the right. For instance when watching pulp fiction the orange lettering in the opening credits seems to blur to the right almost to the end of the screen, now it's a very light blur but its there and I was wondering if anyone had any idea at all about what exactly I would have to do to fix it or at least what could be causing it. Thank everyone again in advance for the help


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *XDanX* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello everyone well first off before I ask any questions I would like to thank everyone who posts here for the wonderful information that I've gotten from this thread and board so far, its really made me happy with my purchase of my kv30hs420. Now for my question, when I watch dvd's and other things like games words sometimes appear to be blurred to the right. For instance when watching pulp fiction the orange lettering in the opening credits seems to blur to the right almost to the end of the screen, now it's a very light blur but its there and I was wondering if anyone had any idea at all about what exactly I would have to do to fix it or at least what could be causing it. Thank everyone again in advance for the help



Use the function "Search this Thread" and search for "focus".


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *XDanX* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello everyone well first off before I ask any questions I would like to thank everyone who posts here for the wonderful information that I've gotten from this thread and board so far, its really made me happy with my purchase of my kv30hs420. Now for my question, when I watch dvd's and other things like games words sometimes appear to be blurred to the right. For instance when watching pulp fiction the orange lettering in the opening credits seems to blur to the right almost to the end of the screen, now it's a very light blur but its there and I was wondering if anyone had any idea at all about what exactly I would have to do to fix it or at least what could be causing it. Thank everyone again in advance for the help



I find this to be "normal" for an interlaced signal. Try setting the set to progressive (480p) and see what happens to the text. I realize 480p may not be optimal for viewing, but it can cut down on the "blur."


----------



## fred33

Happy Holiday.


I have a few questions about my XBR960.

Any one have any idea why the CCD menu does not show up in my service menu?

Any idea why items 7 through 12 in 2170P-4 are listen on the Service manual but do not show

up on the TV service menu?


When adjusting the zoom, wide zoom, etc, does one bring that up on the screen, adjust, and then write?....will that affect the normal view?


Any suggestion as to what I could do to input a pattern to the Cable input?


FYI. I am using ATI 9600 all in wonder. I bought a VGA to YPbPr adapter. Using the software and dip switches, my TV tells me it can get a 720p signal.


Thanks...


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Happy Holiday.
> 
> 
> I have a few questions about my XBR960.
> 
> Any one have any idea why the CCD menu does not show up in my service menu?
> 
> Any idea why items 7 through 12 in 2170P-4 are listen on the Service manual but do not show
> 
> up on the TV service menu?
> 
> 
> When adjusting the zoom, wide zoom, etc, does one bring that up on the screen, adjust, and then write?....will that affect the normal view?
> 
> 
> Any suggestion as to what I could do to input a pattern to the Cable input?
> 
> 
> FYI. I am using ATI 9600 all in wonder. I bought a VGA to YPbPr adapter. Using the software and dip switches, my TV tells me it can get a 720p signal.
> 
> 
> Thanks...




The Sony Service Manuals are not easy to understand, and they are not always correct. The two examples that you mention are the best known. But there are also menues in the TV that is not in the Service Manual, ex the QM menu. I have two versions of the 34XBR960 service manuals and they are different in several areas.


Correct, it will not effect the normal view if the service menu has a specific entry for the particular zoom. If there are no specific entry in the service manual for the zoom or for the input, the change might be global, so you always have to check the service manual.


Read - #416, #429 and #433


----------



## fred33




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Sony Service Manuals are not easy to understand, and they are not always correct. The two examples that you mention are the best known. But there are also menues in the TV that is not in the Service Manual, ex the QM menu. I have two versions of the 34XBR960 service manuals and they are different in several areas.
> 
> 
> Correct, it will not effect the normal view if the service menu has a specific entry for the particular zoom. If there are no specific entry in the service manual for the zoom or for the input, the change might be global, so you always have to check the service manual.
> 
> 
> Read - #416, #429 and #433




I don't know what you mean by "Read - #416, #429 and #433


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't know what you mean by "Read - #416, #429 and #433



Numbers of the posts in this forum.


----------



## deltronica

Hi There!

A help on a description of service codes in a Sony KV-J29MF8 Chassis SCCK57Q-A is well come

Many thanks to all of you.

Baule


----------



## fred33

Ok..Thanks.


Does anyone else beside me, have a time of it trying to make the geometry perfect?

I have the overscan just right, and the pic is all centered.

The edges are clean, etc.

The real concern is when I watch a broadcast, if the camera pans quick, I can see the distortion.

Any easy fix, or is this all by eye with a cross hatch pattern?


----------



## jimmy_p

I am really in need for some help. After reading ken's guides and other overscan guides i have read on here, i have completely screwed up my tv even though i "thought" i had it. The only excel sheets i can find are for an xbr and a 30hs420 in which things are not getting better. Can anyone find or post an excel sheet for the kv-34hs420. please...


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jimmy_p* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am really in need for some help. After reading ken's guides and other overscan guides i have read on here, i have completely screwed up my tv even though i "thought" i had it. The only excel sheets i can find are for an xbr and a 30hs420 in which things are not getting better. Can anyone find or post an excel sheet for the kv-34hs420. please...



The absolute first post in this forum contains the original sony service manual grid for your TV. You cannot expect a perfect result just by putting in the numbers from the grid, and you cannot expect the different excel spredsheets out there to give you a better result. All tube TV's are "temperamental", and if you want to fiddle, you better be careful.


I suggest you write about what you did, which menues you changed and what went wrong.


----------



## ncasebee

I'd like some more help with my television. Anyone have expierence doing focus on Sony HDTV's. Anyway to push the focus further on the Sony? I had Qpam at 0 and DQP at 42, and it had improved considerably, but still wasn't as focused as the center of the television. Any suggestions? I would be willing to open up the back of my television to access pots if necessary. Please, advice would be much appreciated!


I have two floor speakers to the left and right of the Sony. Could these be hurting the television? I've tried removing them, and they don't seem to have any effect on the T.V. I know they are unshielded.


The middle bottom, or the bottom of a widescreen, is bowing upward. Which setting in the service menu addresses that? Please, I would appreciate it.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ncasebee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd like some more help with my television. Anyone have expierence doing focus on Sony HDTV's. Anyway to push the focus further on the Sony? I had Qpam at 0 and DQP at 42, and it had improved considerably, but still wasn't as focused as the center of the television. Any suggestions? I would be willing to open up the back of my television to access pots if necessary. Please, advice would be much appreciated!
> 
> 
> I have two floor speakers to the left and right of the Sony. Could these be hurting the television? I've tried removing them, and they don't seem to have any effect on the T.V. I know they are unshielded.
> 
> 
> The middle bottom, or the bottom of a widescreen, is bowing upward. Which setting in the service menu addresses that? Please, I would appreciate it.



First I need to "*****" a little...!

You are willing to to remove the back of your TV and rummage around, voiding your warranty, but you are not willing to use the search tools to find relevant articles???....."bitching" over...!


1) Read Article #8 and #133

2) Unshielded speakers should not be anywhere near a CRT TV

3) Read Article #409


----------



## ncasebee

Thankyou very much for the reply. Those articles are very helpful.I'm going to read them shortly. I've printed them off.


The two speakers I use for front left and right are Cerwin Vega E-712's. They don't have video shielding. When I bought them I didn't have a clue. Anyways. It seems that they don't have any effect on the Sony TV. I take them away, and there is no difference in focus or geometry. They are each about 1.5 feet straight line away from the TV. There is no discoloration. I've seen them cause that before when they were placed RIGHT next to the television. At this range however, there is none of that. I just don't want them to destroy my TV. What do you say now? Sorry this is really really off topic.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ncasebee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thankyou very much for the reply. Those articles are very helpful.I'm going to read them shortly. I've printed them off.
> 
> 
> The two speakers I use for front left and right are Cerwin Vega E-712's. They don't have video shielding. When I bought them I didn't have a clue. Anyways. It seems that they don't have any effect on the Sony TV. I take them away, and there is no difference in focus or geometry. They are each about 1.5 feet straight line away from the TV. There is no discoloration. I've seen them cause that before when they were placed RIGHT next to the television. At this range however, there is none of that. I just don't want them to destroy my TV. What do you say now?



I do not know enough about your speakers, but the logic is: Very weak magnets are used on the tube to correct the direction and landing of the beam, unshielded speakers contain rather strong magnets, so...!


----------



## ncasebee

I've read article # 133 dealing with the focus pot inside the television. However, If my center focus is just fine, should I even do anything with the pot. Is there any hope in fixing more left and right edge focus by using the focus pot. Qpam is the SM register that is helping me the most.If I set it to 0 the left and right focus become their best, but still not nearly as good as the center. The right seems to be the worst. The DQP register can bring the left into focus all by itself when lowered. However, it seems the reverse is not true for the right. If I go the other way there is a point where the right refuses to get any better with the DQP balance register. I'm just throwing out what I have. I still haven't written any settings yet.Guess I need to diddle some more with the DQP. I think that's the register that's hanging me up.


#8 :::


> Quote:
> LEFT-RIGHT BALANCE is #8 DQP.



#133:::


> Quote:
> (6) Look at the focus patterns at the middle of the left and right edges of the screen, and adjust #0 QPAM for best focus and #2 QPAP for best balance between left and right.



In article #133 it suggests that QPap is the left right balance register, and in #8 it says that DQP is the left right balance setting. Is there something I'm not getting. Does DQP interact with Qpap? Maybe this would affect my DQP register having a significant affect on the right side?




By using the pot, could I obtain more left and right edge focus?


If I raised the focus of the entire screen, then maybe Qpam could focus the edges farther? The article said I could never obtain focus at the edges like I could at the center, and this discourages me from even trying to obtain better focus.


Any thoughts? My problem is focus correct? Text is blurry at the right and left middle edges of the screen.



Also, putting test patterns on a GumStick and trying to view them with the Picture Viewer on the KV36HS500 does not work. No matter what I have done, the patterns just exhibit viewing error's, yet pictures taken with a sony camera work just fine. David Taylor's TVWriter program fixes the problem, but it also messes with the size and res of the input test patterns which isn't wanted.I've tried correct naming and folder convention, but that doesn't work.


My TV requires some sort of header on the JPEG file for it to work in the Viewer. I searched the post, and others have this problem too, but I don't think it got fixed. Anyone with other fixes? Simply throwing them on a gumstick doesn't work. I think I might try a flash drive with my Xbox. I did that and the patterns seem good. I'll just use that.


----------



## FlasHBurN

Well, I thought I had everything pretty much done as far as overscan goes on my KV-32HS510. I have about 3% overscan now on dvd's and HD Cable, which is about what I wanted.


Today, I turned on my Gamecube, and to my horror, it looks like a really bad case of UNDERscan. At least 3-5% underscan around all of the edges. This happens in 480i/p on my Gamecube and PS2. The problem does not however happen on my Xbox360 at 480p or 720p/1080i.


I went into the diagnostic page, and it seems like my tv shares all of the diagnostic settings across all inputs and resolutions. So I don't know how I can eliminate the underscan without having a ton of overscan with my dvd player and cable.


Does anyone have any insight on this? I am pretty confused on what I can do to fix this.


----------



## FlasHBurN




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FlasHBurN* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, it is the whole top and bottom...it looks something like this (but not quite as drastic)...
> 
> 
> top
> 
> //////////////
> 
> ||||||||||||||
> 
> ||||||||||||||
> 
> ||||||||||||||
> 
> //////////////
> 
> 
> bottom



Also, I still have not been able to fix this problem with the very top of my screen curving right and the very bottom curving left. Someone mentioned to check the attachment on post 409, but there was nothing in it about this problem.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FlasHBurN* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, I thought I had everything pretty much done as far as overscan goes on my KV-32HS510. I have about 3% overscan now on dvd's and HD Cable, which is about what I wanted.
> 
> 
> Today, I turned on my Gamecube, and to my horror, it looks like a really bad case of UNDERscan. At least 3-5% underscan around all of the edges. This happens in 480i/p on my Gamecube and PS2. The problem does not however happen on my Xbox360 at 480p or 720p/1080i.
> 
> 
> I went into the diagnostic page, and it seems like my tv shares all of the diagnostic settings across all inputs and resolutions. So I don't know how I can eliminate the underscan without having a ton of overscan with my dvd player and cable.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any insight on this? I am pretty confused on what I can do to fix this.




Read the thread or use the "Search this Thread" tool. There are several post on that exact problem. You have got to invest a little time...we did...!!


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FlasHBurN* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, I still have not been able to fix this problem with the very top of my screen curving right and the very bottom curving left. Someone mentioned to check the attachment on post 409, but there was nothing in it about this problem.



There are about 10-12 settings that can impact the vertical lines and they all impact each other. It's impossible to tell you which, that's why I attached the very informative drawings. If you cannot fix it to your satisfaction, hide it using overscan. If the overscan doesn't exceed 5%, you are fine.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ncasebee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any thoughts? My problem is focus correct? Text is blurry at the right and left middle edges of the screen.



I only mentioned a couple of post that deals with focus. There are many many more to read. Search and read on...there might not be an exact answer to your exact problem, but this forum has touched on almost all existing settings.


Read, get inspired, fix your problem - then you tell all of us exactly what you did.


----------



## pj325is

This thread seems to be about bigger and more expensive models than my little kv-20fs120, but I'm interested in tinkering in the service menu to get the best out of my tv, for practice so I'll be less likely to make mistakes on a larger tv in the future and just for the fun of it. BUT, info on this model is pretty hard to come by, probably because it's so low end that no one ever bothered..


Most of the problems with it are minor and I'll probably be able to fix with DVE once it gets here (except for a slight convergence problem, which I don't think this model has adjustments for), the problem is I don't know what all of the abbreviations in the service menu are. I've managed to get some of the basics from a combination of the things posted early in this thread, and "SONY Service Mode NTSC Version Compiled by Anthony W. Haukap" and a little bit of guessing, but the meaning of the majority of the three hundred settings remain a mystery to me.


I copied down all the names of the settings and their default values in a text document, to which I added the few definitions I could find. I'd get the service manual, but I read that they rarely reveal the meanings of the settings (how the heck do people learn them, then?).


If no one knows where I can find the meaning of all the individual settings, maybe someone could help me understand at least what the categories mean..


They are:


DEF ntsc - I found descriptions for most things in this category, it mostly has to do with geometry stuff.


16:9 ntsc - I'm pretty sure this is for the 16:9 enhanced mode


VP1 ntsc - has controls for the guns and a lot of stuff I have no idea about


vp2 ntsc - no idea


NR ntsc - no idea


Pallet pro - I think they're picture, brightness, etc controls, with a lot of other settings I don't know the meaning of


y ntsc - no idea


C ntsc - no idea


RGB ntsc - no idea


Defd ntsc - no idea


other ntsc - no idea


h/w akb ntsc - still no idea..


audio ntsc - FINALLY, I word I understand.. too bad I don't know what more than half the settings are for


ap2 ntsc - no idea


micro ntsc - no idea


feature ntsc - no idea what the features are or what their settings control

 

tvsettings.txt 7.20703125k . file


----------



## pj325is

d'oh


I spent hours searching, and right after I decided to give up and ask for help, I found what I was looking for.



I can't post the url, so if anyone needs it, pm me


It's for a slightly different model, but the settings I've checked so far have the same names as mine.


Now I have a new question.. Where is the best glossary of terms for tv calibration terms? I have no idea what things like "eht mode" and "matrix ratio select" are..


----------



## AVfile




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ncasebee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> By using the pot, could I obtain more left and right edge focus?
> 
> 
> If I raised the focus of the entire screen, then maybe Qpam could focus the edges farther? The article said I could never obtain focus at the edges like I could at the center, and this discourages me from even trying to obtain better focus.



Does the pot even affect the edges of the screen?


The article says this because that is the nature of any flat-screen CRT. You might even have to sacrifice center focus to get the edge focus decent. On my Pioneer RPTV, the ISF tech defocused the center ever so slightly to get the extremities focused a bit better. The overall effect is quite nice, as too much center focus (a common mistake) is distracting and causes you to obsess. Not sure if the Sony direct-view CRT works the same though.


----------



## ncasebee

That definately helps. I'm getting the courage up to drill the hole and do a full focus readjustment. I will have to remember that. Maybe my center focus is too focused, that could be too. Thx.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

Could someone please repost the service manual for the Sony 30HS420, I can't seem to get the links to work.


----------



## Jediphish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could someone please repost the service manual for the Sony 30HS420, I can't seem to get the links to work.




I was having problems and here's what I did - Right click on the document hyperlink and then "open in a new window." Maybe this will work for you.


----------



## AVfile

Bumping *focus* info previously posted in this thread:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Overall focus is a compromise between focusing bright objects and focusing dark objects, as the scanning dot "blooms" as it gets bright. I will be writing an improved article #07 soon about how to do this more precisely, including the internal focus control on the HV transformer. QPDC *adjusts* the overall dynamic focus of the screen, and its effect is mostly visible in the center. But other adjustments in the 2170P-4 "QP--" series affect the sides, top & bottom, and corners. Using anything but a 2-dinensional high-contrast pattern will mislead you into focusing wrongly -- don't use the raster lines as a criterion! One could argue that an HD broadcast of a sporting event and its long shots of the crowd might be the best pattern. If you diddle, write down the settings before changing them.
> 
> 
> DF and DQF are left-right spot-shape balance controls and should maybe be left alone for now. My article will describe how to adjust them using Sony's official methods.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was having problems and here's what I did - Right click on the document hyperlink and then "open in a new window." Maybe this will work for you.



Thanks, that worked for me as well. Can't believe I didn't think about trying that.


----------



## Jediphish

On my 30-XS955 I use the internal QAM tuner to watch Cable; 480i DVD through component to Video 5; and D* HDTivo through HDMI (Video 7).


If I mess around with the geometry in the Service Menu, which I would do while on Video 5, will my changes affect the tuner and Video 7? Also, are geometry changes effective for all picture modes (vivid, pro, std) (I'm guessing yes).


I have the geometry pages from the 34XBR service manual that are posted in the early portion of this thread and they describe tweaking geometry for Full mode, then normal, zoom, widezoom, (twinview which I don't have) and finally HD1080i. If I do all of this while on Video 5, am I all set?


Thanks.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On my 30-XS955 I use the internal QAM tuner to watch Cable; 480i DVD through component to Video 5; and D* HDTivo through HDMI (Video 7).
> 
> 
> If I mess around with the geometry in the Service Menu, which I would do while on Video 5, will my changes affect the tuner and Video 7? Also, are geometry changes effective for all picture modes (vivid, pro, std) (I'm guessing yes).
> 
> 
> I have the geometry pages from the 34XBR service manual that are posted in the early portion of this thread and they describe tweaking geometry for Full mode, then normal, zoom, widezoom, (twinview which I don't have) and finally HD1080i. If I do all of this while on Video 5, am I all set?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Read post #513 and #514 in this forum


----------



## Jediphish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Read post #513 and #514 in this forum




I did and am not sure what the answer to my question is. Are you saying that the geometry settings for one video input will not be effective for other inputs, or just won't be effective for the tuner? If its only the tuner that the changes are not effective for, then what source material should I use for adjusting geometry for the tuner?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I did and am not sure what the answer to my question is. Are you saying that the geometry settings for one video input will not be effective for other inputs, or just won't be effective for the tuner? If its only the tuner that the changes are not effective for, then what source material should I use for adjusting geometry for the tuner?



When you read the grid in the service manual, some entries are universial like 2170D-1, 0, VPOS. Others like MID3, 0, VDHP have settings for both input and input format. Others again have settings for input format and picture mode(vivid, pro..). If there is a specific setting for your input or input format, changes will not impact other inputs and formats.


On 4:3 TV's I would start with the Tuner 480i input in the 2170D-1 and 2 menues. Then the others using the MID2 and 3 settings.


Read the mentioned post, again or search the forum using "Search This Thread".


----------



## Ev01vEd

Is there a way to fix the problem I have where there is a yellow tint to the far left side of the screen like below. It's easy to see on a white screen.

*|*|||


Thanks.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ev01vEd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there a way to fix the problem I have where there is a yellow tint to the far left side of the screen like below. It's easy to see on a white screen.
> 
> *|*|||
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Use the "Search this Thread" tool and search for Landing.


----------



## MaxDam77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Use the "Search this Thread" tool and search for Landing.



I've heard about the Landing aswell but unforttunatly for me the "landing" is not on my KV30HS420.


----------



## AVfile

So only the XBR960 and XS955 models have the LAND parameters?


----------



## Ev01vEd

Just my luck... I have a KV30HS420. Is there anything similar to "landing" for it?


----------



## MaxDam77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ev01vEd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just my luck... I have a KV30HS420. Is there anything similar to "landing" for it?



Yeah, unfortunatly. When I read about the landing that could corrected the corners of the screen I quickly enterd the SM, and nothing.









I'd like to know aswell if there is anything similar to "landing" for the HS420 models.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is meant to be humorous, right? I'm not trying to be facetious, but this subject has honestly been discussed in great detail in several threads... especially in a number of recent threads posted by new XBOX owners seeking to tweak their Sony sets (e.g. XBR960) to eliminate overscan.
> 
> 
> Assuming you're into the service menu (and are familiar with how it is entered, used, saved, and exited), the primary recipe approach is fundamentally twofold: (1) use the VPOS and VSIZ items in the 2170D-1 group, and the HPOS and HSIZ items in the 2170D-2 service menu group, to adjust the "background raster" (aka "canvas") in both horizontal and vertical directions. Then (2) in the MID3 group you use 0 (VDHP horizontal position), 1 (VDHS horizontal size), 2 (VDVE vertical position) and 3 (VDVS vertical size) to manipulate the 1080i/720p "image" on top of the "background" (i.e. within the "background raster").
> 
> 
> 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are used to adjust the "canvas" to reach to the physical edges of the screen, so that the image then placed on top of it can utilize all available screen real estate. MID3 is used for the 1080i and 720p image size and placement adjustments, within the background raster area set by 2170D-1 and 2170D-2. You position and size the image over the background so that it is fully visible and reaches to the extreme edges of the background for 0% overscan. Then you enlarge it just a bit more in all four directions (using the test pattern on your screen as the guide) to "crop" out the video noise which you may see at 0% overscan, losing perhaps 1-2% of the image in this final "overscan" adjustment.
> 
> 
> As you get into each part of the adjustments, clicking up or down one unit at a time so that you see the precise results of your tweak, you focus on getting the extreme outer edge of the test pattern rectangle visible on your screen. When you're done (at 0% overscan), the complete rectangle should be totally visible on all four sides. No wasted screen, and nothing eliminated (at 0% overscan).
> 
> 
> There is an assumption that you have a proper 16:9 test pattern on your screen, the best of which can be found attached to this post which if you can connect your PC to your HDTV is ideal. If you have a video card like ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, it has a second DVI head and you can connect it to your Sony with a DVI-to-HDMI cable setup. Or, you can get the ATI DVI-to-component adapter and connect the second head to your Sony with component video cables.
> 
> 
> Otherwise, you can use Avia or DVE DVD's to display geometry and overscan test patterns, though at 480p. Using DVE, you can go to Title 12 (Display Setup Patterns) and then Chapter 17 (1:33 overscan pattern), with the latter "spread" to 16:9 by the MODE button on your remote.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps.



I have the Sony KV-30HS420 and even though the service manual has it listed, my service menu does not have the: VDHP, VDHS, VDVE, or the VDVS settings. I'm looking under MID-3 but I do not see it anywhere here or under any of the other categories. Any help or info would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Only I have a 34xs955 which is supposed to be (on the whole) the same set. Some of my other menus are a little off as well, but MID3 has none of the settings listed in the service manual and a complete search of ALL the menus found none of those adjustment parameters. My set has a build date of July 2005. Has there been a revamping of the SM to keep us twiddlers at bay?!?


What gives?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Only I have a 34xs955 which is supposed to be (on the whole) the same set. Some of my other menus are a little off as well, but MID3 has none of the settings listed in the service manual and a complete search of ALL the menus found none of those adjustment parameters. My set has a build date of July 2005. Has there been a revamping of the SM to keep us twiddlers at bay?!?
> 
> 
> What gives?



I do not know the 420 but the 955 should be the same as my XBR960, so this is a surprise. Question 1: When you go to the MID3 menu in the service menu or your TV, which entries are there? Question 2: What does your ID, ID7 say?


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do not know the 420 but the 955 should be the same as my XBR960, so this is a surprise. Question 1: When you go to the MID3 menu in the service menu or your TV, which entries are there? Question 2: What does your ID, ID7 say?



On mine (30HS420) it's the following:


ID7 = 17


MID-3

0 YCPO

1 CCPO

2 PRPB

3 DOSA

4 YCWD

5 MYCD

6 PSTP

7 PSTT

8 VHSC

9 VHSL

10 PLHC

11 PLHL

12 MDTC

13 MFRV


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

I'm not in front of my set (I'm at work.







), but I do remember that the listing that Bolo gave is exactly the set that I have. I didn't check the ID/ID7. I most certainly DID NOT change that setting, is it possible it left the factory with the wrong ID group? I would never have thought to check that!!

BTW, did anyone ever figure out if a 955 could mimick a 960 by changing the ID?

Thanks for the advice, PT!

Bolo, what is the buid date on your set? (just for reference.)


----------



## JTF

I have a 30XS955 built in August 2005. Try going to MID2 and use DHHP, DHHS, DHVP, and DHVS after you've switched to an HD source. The 720p and 1080i are independent of one another if I remember correctly.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

That was the other change I noticed! MID2 labels were changed in regards to the second letter of the code (ie. DH HP instead of DR HP and so on...)

Now, you're suggesting that these MID2 settings have the same effect as VDHP, VDHS, VDVE, and VDVS? Curious!

What's the experienced Sony tweakers take on all this?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On mine (30HS420) it's the following:
> 
> 
> ID7 = 17
> 
> 
> MID-3
> 
> 0 YCPO
> 
> 1 CCPO
> 
> 2 PRPB
> 
> 3 DOSA
> 
> 4 YCWD
> 
> 5 MYCD
> 
> 6 PSTP
> 
> 7 PSTT
> 
> 8 VHSC
> 
> 9 VHSL
> 
> 10 PLHC
> 
> 11 PLHL
> 
> 12 MDTC
> 
> 13 MFRV



That is really strange...!


I have 2 versions of the 960/955 service manual and many of the menues are different. One of the most influential is the ID7 setting. I'm not saying that it will change anything but the newest revision of the service manual has the setting to 11 instead of 17. Give it a try. Make the change, save, turn TV off and on again.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

....they'e on to us!!


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That was the other change I noticed! MID2 labels were changed in regards to the second letter of the code (ie. DH HP instead of DR HP and so on...)
> 
> Now, you're suggesting that these MID2 settings have the same effect as VDHP, VDHS, VDVE, and VDVS? Curious!
> 
> What's the experienced Sony tweakers take on all this?



In my XBR960 the MID2, 0 to 3 settings are for 480i only, MID3, 0 to 3 are for 1080i and 720p in all the different inputs.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

I was making my adjustments in 1080i and my MID3 labels were exactly like the ones Bolo's 420 has.


----------



## JTF

Did you give the MID2 adjustments a shot? I can only vouch for the Video 5 input, but I don't see why that would make a difference.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

Manufactured Date November 2005


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

JTF,

Sorry, I'm at work and cannot try the settings.







I will see how it works when I get home! I was setting the Input 5 as well.


Bolo,

That is one fresh tube you got there!










About that ID7 line of reasoning, any more thoughts?


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That is really strange...!
> 
> 
> I have 2 versions of the 960/955 service manual and many of the menues are different. One of the most influential is the ID7 setting. I'm not saying that it will change anything but the newest revision of the service manual has the setting to 11 instead of 17. Give it a try. Make the change, save, turn TV off and on again.



What will that do? By changing that it won't affect any of the hard coded settings will it?


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> JTF,
> 
> Sorry, I'm at work and cannot try the settings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will see how it works when I get home!
> 
> 
> Bolo,
> 
> That is one fresh tube you got there!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About that ID7 line of reasoning, any more thoughts?



Yeah I got it so I could play HD Xbox 360







.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

From my limited knowledge base, it seems the ID settings let the set know -1)What functions it can utilize and 2) What the base settings will be.

It seems to be an evolving instruction set that is a lot of layers and patches that has grown over the life of these models. Easier than "reinventing the wheel" every time a new model comes along. Add a new component....patch the instruction set to the SM.


p.s. I'm rockin' the 360 as well! (Yummy!!!)


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What will that do? By changing that it won't affect any of the hard coded settings will it?



It didn't for me. I lost ALL my settings by using a bad 7-9 combination. I then read in all the default settings from the service manual, to get a starting point. Now 3 months later I have a TV that is better than it was. One problem was that the newest service manual said that ID7 should be 19. With 19 picture in picture didn't work and I couldn't get my harmony remote to work either. Two weeks later I found an older revision of the service manual that had the ID7 at 25. I changed it and everything was perfect.


I honestly cannot remember if any existing settings were changed. I think not, but as with all these setings - write down everything before tinkering.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

JTF,


I tried the MID2 settings as you suggested. They seemed to have the same effect as the 2170D-1 & 2170D-2 (vpos/vsiz & hpos/hsiz). The issue I'm having is that I can't expand the image to 0% overscan and center it, it's just unbalanced as to how much you can see of the right/left and top/bottom edges. Also, to get anywhere near good geometry, I have to resort to 5%+ overscan because the bottom edge curves SEVERELY to the left at the last 3/4" of the raster.


This is the 5th 955 I've been through and the best of the buch, so far. It would be nice to send it to an Authorized repair shop and see if Sony will help me work these issues out. Am I delusional in expecting anything along these lines?


Bryan


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> JTF,
> 
> 
> I tried the MID2 settings as you suggested. They seemed to have the same effect as the 2170D-1 & 2170D-2 (vpos/vsiz & hpos/hsiz). The issue I'm having is that I can't expand the image to 0% overscan and center it, it's just unbalanced as to how much you can see of the right/left and top/bottom edges. Also, to get anywhere near good geometry, I have to resort to 5%+ overscan because the bottom edge curves SEVERELY to the left at the last 3/4" of the raster.
> 
> 
> This is the 5th 955 I've been through and the best of the buch, so far. It would be nice to send it to an Authorized repair shop and see if Sony will help me work these issues out. Am I delusional in expecting anything along these lines?
> 
> 
> Bryan



I do not know where you live, but in this thread there are several suggestions to how you find the "right" sony support people. There are also specific addresses to guys that actually know how to work the magnets.


If you go the "normal" route to the sony service groups, 5% overscan will be considered "within specs".


You have to remember that you should only set the raser and thereby overscan using the 2170-D, 1 and 2 settings. The MID settings should only be used to center the different "other" inputs and formats.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Well, I live in Omaha Nebraska, if anyone knows of someone in my vicinity.

My issue is that I thow the first crosshatch pattern (from the QM menu) for the 1080i. Let's say I shrink the raster so I can see it's edges. The pattern is not centered within the raster and I thought the MID3 settings move the "picture" around on the "canvas"/raster. Am I completely wrong? Ifso, how do I move the pattern in respect to the raster? I have no doubt that the ammount of overscan/stetching has quite an impact on the PQ and, in particular, artifacts like edge ringing.

BTW, thanks for your continued interest in helping me. I forgot to mention that I tried different values in the ID7. Mine was set at 17. Tried 11 and 25. No difference to picture or menu structure. Boo!


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, I live in Omaha Nebraska, if anyone knows of someone in my vicinity.
> 
> My issue is that I thow the first crosshatch pattern (from the QM menu) for the 1080i. Let's say I shrink the raster so I can see it's edges. The pattern is not centered within the raster and I thought the MID3 settings move the "picture" around on the "canvas"/raster. Am I completely wrong? Ifso, how do I move the pattern in respect to the raster? I have no doubt that the ammount of overscan/stetching has quite an impact on the PQ and, in particular, artifacts like edge ringing.
> 
> BTW, thanks for your continued interest in helping me. I forgot to mention that I tried different values in the ID7. Mine was set at 17. Tried 11 and 25. No difference to picture or menu structure. Boo!



Since I have a 16:9 TV I always start by setting the full 16:9 raster in 1080i, by using the "overscan" pattern. This will set and center the raster and control the overscan. Then I change to all the other inputs one by one and center them using MID2 for 480i and MID3 for the rest.


In your case I would start with a 480i signal for your 4:3 TV, find the correct overscan pattern in the QM menu. Then of cause this signal and input should not be further corrected in MID2 and MID3, just the rest of the signals ond inputs.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

I hope I didn't give the wrong impression. I have the 34xs955 (widescreen). I am doing the same proceedure you describe above only with the crosshatch. It has a dashed rectangle which, I believe marks the 5% range. Would you suggest using the "overscan" pattern from a DVD or from the QM menu? I would think the TV generated one would be best to use (this may be my first misconception!) If you look at the QM "overscan" pattern, how many hash marks outside the rectangle do you want to see?

Question, did you think I had a 30" or 36" by the ID7 number I provided? Just curious...


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

I was just reading in the 34xbr manual that they suggest using the 2150D-1 #12 SCRL(vpos) and #11 ASPT(vsiz) and 2150D-2 #1 HPOS for adjustments in 1080i mode. they also suggest doing this only after centering the raster in "FULL" mode using Input 1 (480i?). Then work out all your geometry problems and then go on to 1080i...confused? I am....

And has anyone else discovered that their MID3 menu does not match the general service manual?


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was just reading in the 34xbr manual that they suggest using the 2150D-1 #12 SCRL(vpos) and #11 ASPT(vsiz) and 2150D-2 #1 HPOS for adjustments in 1080i mode. they also suggest doing this only after centering the raster in "FULL" mode using Input 1 (480i?). Then work out all your geometry problems and then go on to 1080i...confused? I am....
> 
> And has anyone else discovered that their MID3 menu does not match the general service manual?



I'm pretty confused as well, has anyone with the Sony 30HS420 figured out how to do this. Which settings are for which input/video mode (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i)? Any help any one can offer will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## ChrisPC

I had to first set my geometry in 480p, and 1080i fell into place. If I tried doing it in 1080i, then it would be off in 480. It's confusing, but that's the way it works. I think the manual says it has to be done that way.


I also tried to adjust 1080i overscan with HSIZ, and also got curved edges. I had to end up losing a few lines on each side, but not quite as many as before.


----------



## mdtiberi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MaxDam77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yeah, unfortunatly. When I read about the landing that could corrected the corners of the screen I quickly enterd the SM, and nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to know aswell if there is anything similar to "landing" for the HS420 models.



I have a 34HS420 and yes there are landing settings. They are in D-CONV in the service menu. There is RUMP, which is right upper, LUMP which is left upper, etc. Use a 50IRE cross hatch and fiddle with the adjustments in this menu to line things up.


----------



## williamtassone

Hello

I have the Australian version of the XBR 910/ 960 and I've been in service mode before.


Can anyone walk me through how to adjust horizontal pincushion, this horizontal bowing at the edges is starting to give me the ****s.


----------



## AVfile




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mdtiberi* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a 34HS420 and yes there are landing settings. They are in D-CONV in the service menu. There is RUMP, which is right upper, LUMP which is left upper, etc. Use a 50IRE cross hatch and fiddle with the adjustments in this menu to line things up.



Thank you! Is the geometry generally better on the HS420 than the XS955? All the demos I've seen in town would lead me to believe this, and Sony has disco'd the XS but not the HS. Hmmm...


----------



## Shadowx117

Has anyone had the problem where on the left side of a 4:3 picture there is a small fuzzy virtical line where the 4:3 picture meets the black bars? I have heard of this many times, my tv has this slightly and i would like to know how to fix it. I am getting frustrated now as i have asked this question numerous times in about 2 weeks with no answers, please help me and also how much does DVE cost? Will fixing the overscan in video 5 fix it for viewing digital cable or what? Thank you.


----------



## mdtiberi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AVfile* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thank you! Is the geometry generally better on the HS420 than the XS955? All the demos I've seen in town would lead me to believe this, and Sony has disco'd the XS but not the HS. Hmmm...



I couldn't say but I beleive they use the same magnetics so in that respect they wouldn't be any different, However, the XS series uses the fine pitch tube meaning more resolution so I think it might have a little better convergence. But really the HS is quite good and I was able to get really great convergence on my set, certainly better than the factory settings.


----------



## ncasebee

I drilled a hole and diddled with my focus pot. The pot adjusts the ENTIRE screen. It makes a huge huge difference. I followed Kentec's article on precision focusing exactly. It's still not where I want it. The bottom right and right is constantly blurry, and I have attempted a refocus twice now. I follow the article exactly. The blurry on the right and not the left is even worse than just blurry. The uneveness is even more noticable.


Right now, I am back at my original settings with the focus nob adjusted for best overall focus while I research more. The focus nob has a point where all the extremeties come into their best focus, and this is where I have it at now, without any Service Menu adjustments. The side and corner focus is still nowhere near the center focus however.


#1 : Following Kentec exactly: Top middle blurry, right middle and right bottom corner blurry.


#2 Freeform attempt after following Kentec step on adjusting DQP. Right middle and bottom corner blurry.


I just don't know. If I called an ISF tech, could I hope to get focus at the corners and left, right.bottom,top-middle, like I get focus in the center? Is this possible?I'm just getting frustrated. If I kept trying to fix it, do you think I could ever get a uniform focus close to that of the center?


Television is a Sony KV36HS500


----------



## mdtiberi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ncasebee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I drilled a hole and diddled with my focus pot. The pot adjusts the ENTIRE screen. It makes a huge huge difference. I followed Kentec's article on precision focusing exactly. It's still not where I want it. The bottom right and right is constantly blurry, and I have attempted a refocus twice now. I follow the article exactly. The blurry on the right and not the left is even worse than just blurry. The uneveness is even more noticable.
> 
> 
> Right now, I am back at my original settings with the focus nob adjusted for best overall focus while I research more. The focus nob has a point where all the extremeties come into their best focus, and this is where I have it at now, without any Service Menu adjustments. The side and corner focus is still nowhere near the center focus however.



Don't use the pot for fine adjustment especially for the corners, it is for coarse adjustment in the center of the screen. There are magnetic rings around the neck of the tube for corner adjsutment but don't mess with them, your'e gonna end up chasing your tail. Get the pot back to where it was and stick with the service menu adjustments in which there are many. You really need to get the service manual.


You can finely adjust the center in D-CONV as well as the corners. Here are some of the defintions but I don't remember all of them. Start with the center and work your way out. Make sure they are back to the factor settings before you readjust the pot


D-CONV

(CXA8070)

0 YBWU 0-63

1 YBWL 0-63

2 RSAP 0-63

3 RUMB 0-63[ right upper

4 RUBW 0-63; right upper

5 RLMB 0-63; right lower

6 RLBW 0-63; right lower

7 LSAP 0-63

8 LUMB 0-63; left upper

9 LUBW 0-63; left upper

10 LLMB 0-63; left lower

11 LLBW 0-63; left lower

12 CADJ 0-63; center adjust

13 HVCA 0-63


----------



## ncasebee




> Quote:
> Don't use the pot for fine adjustment especially for the corners, it is for coarse adjustment in the center of the screen. There are magnetic rings around the neck of the tube for corner adjsutment but don't mess with them, your'e gonna end up chasing your tail. Get the pot back to where it was and stick with the service menu adjustments in which there are many. You really need to get the service manual.
> 
> 
> You can finely adjust the center in D-CONV as well as the corners. Here are some of the defintions but I don't remember all of them. Start with the center and work your way out. Make sure they are back to the factor settings before you readjust the pot



So my problem is convergence as well? I need this answered. People are using "convergence" and "focus" in the same sentences, and I don't understand. Is my fuzzy text in certain areas of the screen a focus problem or a convergance problem?


When you said. "Get the pot back to where it was and stick with the service menu adjustments in which there are many." Which pot position do you want? The one where I focus it for best center focus via Kentec's Guide, or the setting I have now, which seems to make the outsides of the screen the clearest with my original Service Menu settings?


Thankyou for informing me of this. I will remember that the pot is only for coarse center adjustments. This means that Kentec's guide about adjusting the the pot for best center focus is the definate guide? So let me reiterate.


What you want me to do is. " Make sure they(the 2170D-4 settings) are back to the factor settings before you readjust the pot." Then readjust the pot for best possible center focus? I guess I'm still a little foggy.


I have a service manual for my KV36HS500



Next, I really need your confirmation on this. You mentioned convergence settings in your reply. Convergence can have an affect on focus? I was thinking that focus pot + Focus Service Menu settings were my problem. Is convergence my problem as well? Which do you do first? Convergence or Focus? If you could just tell me, I can research convergence. I am in desperate need of help. Just send me in the right direction once again.


----------



## mdtiberi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ncasebee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So my problem is convergence as well? I need this answered. People are using "convergence" and "focus" in the same sentences, and I don't understand. Is my fuzzy text in certain areas of the screen a focus problem or a convergence problem?



First I need to now if you can display a cross hatch or a dot pattern. Do you have the Avia disk?


Focus and convergence are really two different things but most people use it to mean the same thing. Partly becasue of the nomenclature of the Service Menu options I think. What you are really doing is converging three focused electron beams to land on the red, green and blue phosphors to make a white pixel.


First, reset all of the Service Menu items you changed back to their original settings. Display the Avia pattern with the plusses (+), I think you can select one that is 50 IRE. Now look at the + in the very center, is it a straight up and down or do you see a small blue edge or green edge? You really have a red plus, a green plus and a blue plus in the center and you want them all to line up or "converge. Now adjust the pot on the back of the set so the lines are as thin or sharp as they can get and the RGB +'s look lined up. Remeber this is for coarse adjustment, you will improve on it in the service menu.



> Quote:
> What you want me to do is. " Make sure they(the 2170D-4 settings) are back to the factor settings before you readjust the pot." Then readjust the pot for best possible center focus? I guess I'm still a little foggy.



Yes, just try to undo what you did the best you can. After that we'll take the next step


Good luck


----------



## ncasebee

mdtiberi, I greatly appreciate your help. You must know how maddening it can be.I appreciate everyone's help.


Ok, I just did this tonight.I tried following your suggestions as close as possible. I went into service menu and returned all 2170D-4(Focus) settings to their original values. I then brought up Kentec's 4:3 Focus Matrix, and turned on only the green gun. I tweaked the center focus pattern for absolute best focus. My face was very close to the screen, and the center focus is at it's very best.


I then turned back on all the guns, and looked at a white 4:3 Crosshatch pattern. I'm using Video Essentials by the way, but used a crosshatch pattern on stick. I looked closely at the right side of the screen. At about 1.5-1.0 ft from the screen, I noticed large amounts of convergence issue on the right side of the screen. When looking at the right vertical lines, I could detect a red line, a green line, and a blue line quite distinctly. I then looked at the center. The convergence was much better compared to the right side of the screen. Only a slight trace of red and blue could be seen. The left had a little problem as well, however not like the right.


Could this be what's causing my blurry text at the extremeties of the screen? The areas of the screen that suffer from blurry text are also suffering from convergence issues. Are they tied together? What's the next step. (I don't think Kentec wrote a convergence guide.)


----------



## mdtiberi

Yes, I think the misconvergence is causing you to see blurry text. I do not know the SM items for your set but do you have D-CONV? First play with the CADJ or center adjust and get that where you like it then move out to the edges. The settings LUMB, LLMB, are for left lower and left upper found in D-CONV. Try fiddling with these settings so you can see how they work. You might also have to go back to QPAM and some of the geometry settings for pin cushion etc. All of these settings interact with one another so it can get a little tricky. Just take your time and make notes. Eventually it will all come together.


----------



## ncasebee

Thx mdtiberi


I am working on convergence settings in D-Conv, as well as geometry settings in 2170D-1. What is the order that you should do adjustments? Geomerty>Convergence>Focus. The convergence is helping quite a bit. I guess convergence can make white text look fuzzy/blurry. I know a cross hatch vertical line that isn't converged looks fuzzy.


I've just been looking at a white crosshatch to do focus on.


I have a question however. In the top middle of my screen the middle section of a "Horizontal Line" is not converged. I have heard that convergence on horizontal lines, or "vertical convergence" can't be done. Are there any settings that could possibly fix that area?


----------



## ChrisPC

Wow, QPAM made a huge difference! I'd tried D-CONV and 2170D-1 with few results. The crosshatch lines were still fuzzy until I changed QPAM, and then they got very sharp. The geometry is still a bit off, but the convergence is better than ever!


----------



## hbecktv

Hello,


Could someone tell me how to get the files in this thread to download.

Error message says it can't find the files


Thanks


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hbecktv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> Could someone tell me how to get the files in this thread to download.
> 
> Error message says it can't find the files
> 
> 
> Thanks



Right click, open in new window.


----------



## deckels

To anyone who has had discoloration in corners of their set and fixed it by changing the Landing settings:


I just tried to do this with no luck. I thought I had the same problem as you all do, but now I wonder. My new xbr960 has discoloration in three of the corners, the top left the worst by far, but it doesn't stay there. It comes and goes, maybe once or twice a minute a color distortion will bleed out of the corner a ways, maybe pulse a little, and then move back in. Did you all have something like that or just steady discoloration?


It makes it tough to watch the tv right now. My eyes keep moving to the color distortions when they occur. Thanks for any help.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deckels* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To anyone who has had discoloration in corners of their set and fixed it by changing the Landing settings:
> 
> 
> I just tried to do this with no luck. I thought I had the same problem as you all do, but now I wonder. My new xbr960 has discoloration in three of the corners, the top left the worst by far, but it doesn't stay there. It comes and goes, maybe once or twice a minute a color distortion will bleed out of the corner a ways, maybe pulse a little, and then move back in. Did you all have something like that or just steady discoloration?
> 
> 
> It makes it tough to watch the tv right now. My eyes keep moving to the color distortions when they occur. Thanks for any help.



Move your speakers away from the TV


----------



## deckels

Well, not only are they shielded and pretty far away at is it, except the center speaker on top, but I of course did that the second I saw something like this, didn't affect it. Thanks though. I've done it in the past and learned my lesson.


----------



## williamtassone

Deckels

No my colour purity problems were constant , never pulsating.


I'm a bit concerned about your's though


Where's Dakotatech when u need him?


Is it still under warranty?


----------



## renglade

In a 9-30-05 post, Kentech wrote:


"Further, no matter what I have said before, there are two places where sharpness is very significantly controlled *in addition* to 2170P-3 and the MID5 table. I'll write that up soon. I have some substantially improved image settings to recommend for different sources, based on these (for me) recent discoveries. Surprising improvements for SD broadcast and SD over S-video, and for DVD on component inputs, less so for HD broadcast."


Since that time, he has been silent. Does anyone have a clue what he was talking about?


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by *renglade*
Since that time, he has been silent. Does anyone have a clue what he was talking about?
Sorry to have been absent from ths forum for so long. There is that need to shoot the engineer and publish the results, no?


What I have been doing is watching tons of movies from my newish Panasonic S97 DVD player, which is nearly perfect over its component outputs at 480i, letting the TV perform 3:2 pulldown when I care about it (not always). As a result I have been revising my settings for image processing and shaping that is, the equalization and/or enhancement of real-world video so it looks like a million dollars. Then Ive been adapting what I have learned there to the other video inputs and sources.


In particular, I have been trying to track down *every* source of edge enhancement and ringing in the entire signal chain, starting with the DVD disk. Fortunately there are some DVDs that simply have no significant edge enhancement or artifacts of their own. How does one know? By playing them on a computer screen digitally and displaying the picture pixel-for-pixel. A good example is The Incredibles, an example of great computer-to-DVD perfection, followed closely by Monsters, Inc. This test can be done with the open-source software VLC from videolan.com, with the display-ratio settings at 720:480 (Mac or PC).


Without getting into many gory details quite yet, I will say the following:


(1) I mentioned sharpness/EQ settings hiding in a couple of places. Right. Here they are:


(a) First, in plain sight: 2170P-3. I have decided that #9-F1LV introduces too much after-edge outlining for me, and I have generally set it to zero. Further, after having lived with SYSM=3 for some time, I now realize that the least harmful equalization can be found in SYSM=2. Set properly, it acts like true unsharp-masking (a term digital-camera fans will understand).


(b) Also, I use the MID5 enhancements *very* conservatively. POP=63 is always set to all-zeroes for nos. 1-18, which pretty much makes MID5 pass-through if I set MIDE=63 in 2170P-3. Then small amounts of very-fine-detail enhancement can be added in other columns by setting MHYL=3 and varying MHYE from 0 (no effect) to 7 (max effect). Were talking skin and cloth texture, here, not big edge-sharpness. Settings of MHYE=2 or 3 are helpful for all fine sources, such as DVDs and HDTV. A heavier setting for SD sources can be had by setting MHYO to 1 (makes it coarser), MHYL=3, and then MHYE to 1 to 3.


(c) The hidden enhancements are real troublemakers! The worst is in 2103-1, nos. 6-8, SHAP-SHF0-PREO. SHAP is yet another sharpness enhancer, but this one is in mid-detail, and it rings, adding coarseness and a video look to fine sources. 2103-1 does NOT affect certain digital inputs (e.g. HDMI, HDTV from tuner) and always affects V5/V6 component 480i, S-video 480i, and RF-tuner and digital-tuner 480i. Recommended: set SHAP to zero, SHF0 to 3, and PREO (less critical) to 0 or 3 (havent decided yet).


(d) For all S-video, composite-video, and RF-tuner 480i sources, the 3D comb filter separate color from luminance, and the 3D-COMB section has significant sharpness tweaks, nos. 14 and 15: VAPG and VAPI for vertical anhancement (generally not used, which means zeros); and nos. 17 and 18: YPFT and YPFG. In this case, YPFG can act as either a detail-reducer or enhancer, with no effect at YPFG=8. (Possibly 7; still experimenting.) Note that the 3D-COMB settings have no effect on all high-quality sources, such as HDTV, HDMI, and component inputs. Recommended: Set VAPG and VAPI to zero, YPFT to 3 and YPFG to 8.


***************


SO . . . Imagine a chart so we can track this stuff. (Attached is a PDF of a useful chart for keeping track of these settings. Print on legal-size paper.)


The settings can be grouped in a table. Reading down the far-left column . . .


3D-COMB: 14-15-17-18 (4 rows) X 4 columns, 1 for each picture mode (Pro, Standard, Movie, Vivid).


2103-1: 6-7-8 (3 rows), only one column for all picture modes.


2170P-3: 0 thru 16, SYSM-VMLV-VMCR- ... - MIDE (17 rows grouped 1-1-4-4-3-3-1, according to function) X 4 columns, 1 for each picture mode.


MID5: 0 thru 18, POP-MHLY-MHLC- ... -MVCE (19 rows grouped 1-4-4-4-3-3, according to finction) and sample columns showing the POP values for possible MIDE values in 2170P-3, above.


The row-orders are the same as in the parameter charts from the Sony service manuals that have been published.


Example: My latest thinking for DVD-480i thru component inputs in Pro mode is:


3D-COMB: 14-15-17-18 = not applicable.

2103-1: 6-7-8 = 0-3-3

2170P-3: 0 thru 16 = 2 n 0-3-2-8 0-1-3-0 0-1-0 5-0-0 60, where n depends on the velocity-modulation setting. UBOF = 5 balances the black level against my other inputs. There, YMMV.


MIDE: 0 thru 18 = 60 0-0-0-0 0-3-3-0 0-0-0-0 0-0-0 0-0-0


This requires the user Sharpness slider to be set at 25-35, depending on taste. Mine is usually near 30.


************


Cryptic and confusing? I guess those were some of the gory details, indeed! I have been through these numbers so many times that I think of them as a series. When I am writing down what I am doing, for example, in the 2170P-3 settings, I just scribble the 17 numbers in a column with lines between the groups. That way I can see patterns developing or changing as I experiment. If the chart is used as a template, then one can publish settings as a number-series, as I have done above. Note that a chart as described above may cover all picture modes, but there has to be a separate chart for each video-input class and scan type.


Final thoughts for now:


(1) I believe that very conservative velocity modulation settings (ClearEdge) are a benefit for non-HD sources, maybe even for HD. I have set it according to what I have previously written: For all picture modes, 2170P-3-VM, VMH, VMM, VML are set to 0-9-6-3, respectively. I typicaly have the user VM control set to Medium, maybe Low or Off for HDTV. Set conservatively, it does NOT suppress fine detail as rumors would have it. (But some of the ringy enhancement filters can do that, as implied earlier.)


I have been experimenting extensively with the settings in 2170P-3, nos. 2-5, the codes that entirely determine the "look" of VM. The current settings of 0-3-2-8 replace earlier settings of 0-3-1-0 and seem to cause less distortion of high-contrast vertical edges while reducing the mush from the scanning spot. The differences are subtle and matter only if there is any VM turned on at all.


(2) I cant fathom Sonys claim of minimum enhancements for the Pro mode, as it clearly invokes certain digital filters that significantly modiofy the image, in some cases to its detriment. Ive tried to ferret out these effects and control them. I am making judgements based on a near-photographic reproduction of DVD material from source to screen, and some enhancement and sharpening *is* necessary but it doesnt have to be ugly! The same settings applied to HDTV prove the result almost shocking photo-like detail, when the broadcast is good.


(3) Summary: The most valuable lesson I have learned here is setting 2170P-3/SYSM to 2, reserving all fine-detail adjustments for the MID5 group of codes, and turning OFF all other sharpening filters for fine sources. The the Sharpness slider is used to adjust overall sharpness to taste. (Exception: for SD cable-broadcast, I turn 2170P-3: F1LV up to 3. Ordinary broadcast can be pretty awful, but even that benefitted from getting the nasty sharpness eliminated from 2103-1. It also made my VHS tapes look gawd-awful and grainy; much better now.)

_UPDATE: Attached chart is now revised to include SSMD and PPHA parameters. See post #1040 *here*_.

 

IPChart05tall.pdf 80.22265625k . file


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry to have been absent from ths forum for so long. There is that need to shoot the engineer and publish the results, no?



Good to see you back...!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ncasebee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The bottom right and right is constantly blurry, and I have attempted a refocus twice now. I follow the article exactly. The blurry on the right and not the left is even worse than just blurry. The uneveness is even more noticable.



The focus pot is an *overall-focus* adjustment, as is 2170P-4 #3 QPDC. They sort of duplicate each other -- but not quite. You can isolate them only by adding an electrical jumper onto one of the circuit boards, and that's not possible without taking the back off the set. That's why I suggested setting QPDC to either the default or (maybe for you) the middle of its range.


Yes, the whole screen is affected by the adjustment pot, but you should pay attention only to the center and get that to be the best compromise between the pot setting and QPDC. In addition, you are trying to balance any asymmetry in the deflection yoke or its mounting on the tube by doing this step: "Adjust 2170D-4 #8, DQP until vertical line widths at equal distances from center are balanced." I.e. you want the left and right sides to be *equally* out-of-focus during this step. This is how Sony suggests to do it, and it worked fine for me on my 36XS955.


Having now set up the center focus, all you can do is the best you can with the dynamic-focus controls described in steps 5-7. The corners will *always* be crappier than the center -- fact of life for CRTs. Just do the best you can; it's going to be a compromise no matter what. The detailed dynamic-focus settings are designed to minimize the *differences* between the screen's outer reaches and the center.


Focus and convergence are completely different matters. Focus is the attempt to make the scanning dot (of whatever color) as small as possible over as much of the screen as possible. Convergence is the attempt to make the three color dots (red, green, blue) line up perfectly over as much of the screen as possible, no matter the focus.


If the green pattern is well-focused, the other colors are as well, as the three electron guns are designed to track that way. But if you see color fringing on horizital or vertical edges or lines, that means the three (well-focused) colors aren't lining up properly, and that is what convergence is all about. It's usually set up with a fine-dot pattern over all the screen. You can adjust for nearly perfect horizontal convergence (no fringing on vertical lines), but fringing on horizontal lines is tough to cure, as it means fooling with permanent magnets inside the set -- not a pleasant job, and sometimes the best you can achieve, again, is a compromise.


If you have the center 3/4 of the area of your picture well-focused and converged, you likely will not pay much attention to outer aberrations when watching actual video material, especially in the corners -- well, excepting maybe for games and other computer graphics. . . . And I hope this method works well for your HS500, a set with which I have no personal experience.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deckels* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It comes and goes, maybe once or twice a minute a color distortion will bleed out of the corner a ways, maybe pulse a little, and then move back in. Did you all have something like that or just steady discoloration?



I'm really suspicious of this "pulsing." If it were an adjustment-fixable problem, it wouldn't be pulsing. The way you describe it, the pulsing sounds like the difference between the scan rate of NTSC-standard TV (59.94Hz or something like that) and the exact 60Hz of the power mains. This means that it could be caused by a low-level interference from a 60Hz outside magnetic field caused by a big motor, transformer, overhead power lines, roof air conditioner, apartment-building wiring, whatever. If you change the orientation of the set in the room, by turning it or relocating it, and the pulsing changes in pattern or degree, I really would suspect this.


(This problem plagues computer-monitor users, too. How about major power lines just outside a third-floor office of a client? Caused an maddening 15Hz wobble of the 75Hz-scan display.)


Oh, Hell, I just thought of something else less pleasant. It could be that there is some kind of leakage in the device that is supposed to turn of *completely* the degaussing current that causes the big "bzzt" when you first turn on your set. If it's a relay, small chance of that; but if the device is what is called a PTC resistor, then it may be defective. Can you have it checked out under warranty? A definitive test would be to open the back of the set and temporarily disconnect (unplug) the degaussing coil from the curcuit board where it normally connects. If the pulsing stops, that's the problem.


----------



## ncasebee

Thankyou KenTech. I greatly appreciate the help and response. I'm still trying to get my geomerty/convergence/focus down. All of which are not so hot. I have never really noticed the convergence/focus problems until I started using HDTV content heavily. 480i and 480p do not allow one to notice the focus/convergence problems, so it is just recently that I have noticed these problems. I'm going to try again tonight with a geometry>convergence>focus extravaganza. Sometimes I wish I would have waited until now to buy my HDTV. I would have bought a widescreen DLP. Candy and Nuts though. Thanks again.


TV: KV36HS500


----------



## flibottf

Do any of you know why on my KV-30HS420 the HDMI input port won't work after doin a mid reset data? ALl of my ID are set properly and everything... I just can't see why....


----------



## Jediphish

I know that the service codes list and data sheets are posted here as adobe pdf files, but I cannot find them posted as excel spreadsheets, which makes them easire to use. If anyone knows which post the spreadsheets are found in, or if you have the spreadsheets for the XS955 line, could you please let me know. I'd like to be able to keep an electronic table, rather than paper only. Thanks.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I know that the service codes list and data sheets are posted here as adobe pdf files, but I cannot find them posted as excel spreadsheets, which makes them easire to use. If anyone knows which post the spreadsheets are found in, or if you have the spreadsheets for the XS955 line, could you please let me know. I'd like to be able to keep an electronic table, rather than paper only. Thanks.



I personally find the adobe pdf files that contain the actual service manual listings to be more useful than the spreadsheets. The service manual listings very clearly indicate how the parameters are distributed across inputs, picture modes, DRC modes, etc. The spreadsheets don't make these issues clear. Without this information, navigating and modifying parameters can be confusing and risky. I simply print the pdf listing and pencil in my differences/modifications. The spreadsheets do provide useful information in that the authors have provided explanations of many of the parameters. YMMV.


Raoul


----------



## Jediphish

I assumed the pdf files were just "snapshots" of the excel sheets. I just want to be able to manipulate the data in the sheet, as well as be able to manipulate the print area. I know this is petty, but if the files exist . . .


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Jediphish*
I know that the service codes list and data sheets are posted here as adobe pdf files, but I cannot find them posted as excel spreadsheets, which makes them easire to use.
Here is the only one I'm aware of, for the 34XBR910, which has only a few differences with the later sets. There are a couple of vatiations of this, but this seems the most informed. Note that some of the "descriptions" are, at best, wild guesses.


But note that this is not as useful as you would believe. The spreadsheets give you *no* clue as to how the code-settings are memorized for different combinations of picture mode, video mode, and input type. Except for an occasional quick look, I have found the spreadsheets essentially useless! They helped at the beginning of my experimentation, but only the charts can make plain what is stored when you WRITE the settings.


Example: The MID5 code-group alone starts with a table of 64 columns X 19 rows, all visible in the charts. The spreadsheets give no clue! Same with the complex 2170P groups. The simple vertical listing in the spreadsheet is useless!


Both are attached>

 

34XBR910 Service Menu vADR.zip 57.740234375k . file

 

XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf 405.4189453125k . file


----------



## KenTech

*FAIR WARNING: CHANGES DURING WARMUP*


It will not come as any surprise to anyone reading my posts that, for me, no tweaking of these XS955/XBR960 sets brings as much benefit as optimizing the image-processing path. My post #707 is an example. (Of course, that presumes you have satisfactory focus and geometry but geometry is a separate issue.)


But I have some shocking news in case some of you have found yourselves chasing your tail at times: Something substantial changes within the set during warmup. Well, it's more complicated than that. Let me explain.


It is known that solid-state devices (all of the chips, transistors, and processors) change electrical characteristics with warmup. Amplifiers improve in gain and ability to handle high frequencies. Memory and switching chips actually slow down slightly. The whole chain of processing in these sets is really crappy when cold, improving substantially in the first ten minutes of operation after a really cold start, say in the morning in a cool house. The tube doesn't look its best, either.


All you have to do to prove the point is to put up one of AVIA's Resolution test patterns. The second pattern in the Resolution group, 200 TVL, is good. Turn on a cold TV, and put up this pattern in Pro mode as soon as you can from your DVD player. Then watch the vertical wedges and the lower-right circle change over half an hour! But that's only the half of it.


Example of what got me wondering: I once put up a test pattern 5 minutes after startup, reviewed my charts and planned what I was going to do, then looked at the TV and realized I had forgotten to put it into Service mode. 15 minutes had gone by or more. Fine. So I restarted the TV and went through the button sequence on the remote to put it into Service mode. But wait! Now the pattern looked much improved! What was going on here? Only 20 seconds had elapsed.


After getting somewhat confused by this and undergoing some hair-replacement, I have come to this solid conclusion: *This TV performs some sort of self-optimizing calibration at startup*, likely to compensate for temperature and set-to-set variations in components. It happens during that first 10 seconds or so while the screen is dark. It has nothing to do with Service mode. Important: It performs this calibration at EVERY RESTART.


I'll state it a different way: If you turn on your set from cold, it performs this calibration as best it can, and presents a picture. But it is not at its best yet that takes 15 minutes or more of warmup. If you display high-quality video, say through the component inputs (a 480i test pattern proves the point), then restart the set after 15 minutes or more, the image/pattern improves, and very substantially for the best video (a great DVD, say). And by restart I mean power-off/on for 0.5 - 1 second, that's all. Fine detail seems most affected.


I don't think at present it affects straight-digital inputs, such as HDMI or HD broadcast from the tuner; but it definitely affects any 480i analog video from any input. Which leads me to believe the culprit is the 2130 chip, but I can't prove it, and it doesn't really matter. I can't say whether mine is the only set that does this, either, but I doubt it.


Bottom line: If you are going to experiment with image-processing tweaks, restart the set after 15-30 minutes before working on it. And if you are going to watch any 480i material, warm up the TV first, then restart after 15-30 minutes. It will then be at its best. I now *routinely restart the set after warmup*, no matter what I am watching, to force recalibration. It may not matter for the evening news or CNN, but it does if the analog broadcast is high-quality and you're awake enough to care.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Has anyone besides Bolo the Romeo and I noticed that their MID3 menu looks nothing like the service manual layout? He has a 420 and I have a 955. Both of our ID7 settings are 17. If you care to catch up, our quandary starts at post # 661.

Please help some brothers out!


Bryan


----------



## Jediphish

Okay - I finally printed out the 22 page PDF chart for the XS series (I have the 30XS955) and recorded all of my initial settings for V5/V6 (using my HDTivo connected to V6, which allowed me to toggle output between 480i and 1080i - I don't use 480p or 720p).


I noticed that on several settings, what the chart had for 480i and 1080i was reversed. For example: 3DNR #43 - YEL (Vivid) is listed as 6 (480i) and 4 (1080i) on the chart, but my actuals were the opposite - 4 (480i) and 6 (1080i).


Another example is 3DNR #41 - YMG (Vivid) - The chart has 3 (480i) and 1 (1080i), but my actuals were the opposite - 1 (480i) and 3 (1080i).


Any ideas about this?


Finally, I'm one of those people who made a few changes before printing the charts. The only changes I made prior to printing the charts were to the geometry settings and I wrote down my changes at the time I made them, but I was not perfect in doing so. I think I may have changed a couple of settings without recording the original value. If anyone has their originals for these two groups (only 2170-D1 and D2), I'd very much appreciate a PM. I think I have most of the original values recorded, but I'm not 100% positive. My geometry is fine but I'd like to be certain about the original settings if I can be. Thanks.


----------



## deckels




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm really suspicious of this "pulsing." If it were an adjustment-fixable problem, it wouldn't be pulsing. The way you describe it, the pulsing sounds like the difference between the scan rate of NTSC-standard TV (59.94Hz or something like that) and the exact 60Hz of the power mains. This means that it could be caused by a low-level interference from a 60Hz outside magnetic field caused by a big motor, transformer, overhead power lines, roof air conditioner, apartment-building wiring, whatever. If you change the orientation of the set in the room, by turning it or relocating it, and the pulsing changes in pattern or degree, I really would suspect this.
> 
> 
> (This problem plagues computer-monitor users, too. How about major power lines just outside a third-floor office of a client? Caused an maddening 15Hz wobble of the 75Hz-scan display.)
> 
> 
> Oh, Hell, I just thought of something else less pleasant. It could be that there is some kind of leakage in the device that is supposed to turn of *completely* the degaussing current that causes the big "bzzt" when you first turn on your set. If it's a relay, small chance of that; but if the device is what is called a PTC resistor, then it may be defective. Can you have it checked out under warranty? A definitive test would be to open the back of the set and temporarily disconnect (unplug) the degaussing coil from the curcuit board where it normally connects. If the pulsing stops, that's the problem.



Thanks for the help. I hate the idea of someone form sony coming out and opening it up, but it sounds like that might be the final solution. I think I'll see if it goes away in a couple days first. I'll call Sony today and let them know about it, so it's clear this was happening from the get go.


I'll try moving the tv around a bit, but I don't have real options as to where it can go. I don't know where a large magnetic force could be coming from. I'm on the top floor and it's just a pizza restaurant below me.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Finally, I'm one of those people who made a few changes before printing the charts. The only changes I made prior to printing the charts were to the geometry settings and I wrote down my changes at the time I made them, but I was not perfect in doing so. I think I may have changed a couple of settings without recording the original value. If anyone has their originals for these two groups (only 2170-D1 and D2), I'd very much appreciate a PM. I think I have most of the original values recorded, but I'm not 100% positive. My geometry is fine but I'd like to be certain about the original settings if I can be. Thanks.



Two things you need to know:


1) Service Manuals are not updated as often as the TV's, so you might find missing or added entries, and as you saw entries in a different order.


2) I'm sure you already know, but... The values in the Service Manual are the default settings for your TV. The actual values on your TV are often changed in the final factory check. On my XBR960 over 20% of the values were different than the default, from the Service Manual.


----------



## Jediphish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Two things you need to know:
> 
> 
> 1) Service Manuals are not updated as often as the TV's, so you might find missing or added entries, and as you saw entries in a different order.
> 
> 
> 2) I'm sure you already know, but... The values in the Service Manual are the default settings for your TV. The actual values on your TV are often changed in the final factory check. On my XBR960 over 20% of the values were different than the default, from the Service Manual.




Thanks for the reply. I figured the service manual entries are the defaults, and that my set would have been adjusted prior to shipment. Nevertheless, if a couple of people with this set sent me thiey original values for 2170D1 & 2 and they turn out to be essentially identical to each other (and virtually the same as the original values I'm certain of, then I could feel comfortable with the few values I'm not sure of. Hopefully I'm making sense.


Again - thatnks!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I noticed that on several settings, what the chart had for 480i and 1080i was reversed. For example: 3DNR #43 - YEL (Vivid) is listed as 6 (480i) and 4 (1080i) on the chart, but my actuals were the opposite - 4 (480i) and 6 (1080i).
> 
> 
> Another example is 3DNR #41 - YMG (Vivid) - The chart has 3 (480i) and 1 (1080i), but my actuals were the opposite - 1 (480i) and 3 (1080i).
> 
> 
> Any ideas about this?



Here is my experience with these. I have tried hard to understand what the 3DNR (3-D Noise Reduction, also in many DVD players) parameters do and what happens if they're changed. I have put up a 480i picture with critical detail, hard edges and some grainy noise. Then I have gone thru many of the 3DNR settings (if not all!), changing the values up and down to see if anything changed on-screen. In every case where the picture didn't simply disappear, turn to gibberish, or radically reverse color, I couldn't notice anything useful. E.g. I could never find one parameter that might mean "degree of noise reduction" or "detail preservation" with 0 = off, and 1-3 having increasing effect. Nothing.


Maybe I was not using the right test conditions or a suitable picture. Maybe this stuff kicks in only with horrible fringe-reception conditions or bad VHS tapes, I don't know. But I felt it was a waste of time, and I was pleased with the video reproduction as it was. There were so many *other* settings that were critical, I let 3DNR settings alone. I have recently on a rainy Sayurday tried again to identify useful tweaks in 3DNR. No-go; nothing new.


Having said that, and having little use for the horribly unsophisticated "enhancements" of the Vivid mode, I have taken over Vivid for my own purposes and made sure *all* of the mode-dependent settings were initially identical to Pro, a conservative picture mode. Parameters nos. 43 and 41 didn't respond to tweaking, and now I don't care, my initial reasoning being "if the only change in the chart is for Vivid, I don't need it!"


Bottom line: So many other parameters are more important, I wouldn't sweat a single drop over this. My chart shows exceptions in the Vivid-Others column for #62, too, but I have long ago made these parameters all the same for all modes (same as Pro). And that's where they have stayed, including the more radically changing #45-CLV.


----------



## KenTech

*The Image-Processing Chart posted above in message #707 has been significantly updated.* I recommend anyone who has downloaded it discard that and download the new one.


I believe the comments and descriptions are now much more reflective of what these parameters really do, and a few minor errors have been fixed. To a great extent we are reading tea leaves here, as Sony is no help, and the descriptions may be further revised as I learn more. But many of the descriptions seem really solid in hindsight after several months of experience.


Reminder of its purpose: We can now easily share these important image-processing settings by simply listing them as a number-series in a message. Filling those numbers into an appropriate column of the chart, top-down, then ties them to the actual parameters and the descriptions, saving much time and trouble.


Example: Excellent settings for 1080i HDTV reception from built-in cable or antenna ATSC (digital) tuner, now my "standard" for everyday viewing. I set Sharpness at 25-35, to taste. ClearEdge is usually set to Low or OFF, but sometimes to Medium. These settings assume Pro-like settings for everything else.


3D-COMB and 2103-1 = not applicable


2170P-3 = 2 - - 0.3.2.8 - 0.1.3.0 - 0.1.0 - 5.0.0 - 61

(For the 5.0.0 group, VMMV depending on how you balance your inputs.)


MID5 = 61 - 0.0.0.0 - 0.3.2.0 - 0.3.2.0 - 0.0.0 - 0.0.0


For 720p, change MIDE to 60 and:


MID5 = 60 - 0.0.0.0 - 0.3.3.0 - 0.3.3.0 - 0.0.0 - 0.0.0


----------



## ADU

Howdy Ken,


Glad to see you're still keeping tabs on things.


Re greyscales... based on some more recent experiments using various 6500K references, it looks like my earlier best-guess/color-differentation eyeballing method may not have worked quite as well as hoped, and that I was probably leaning a bit too much toward orange on my yellows, overdriving red and underdriving green on the display.


Re sharpness... if you're still using the memory stick I'd be curious to hear your or Glen's take (or anyone else's for that matter) on the patterns in Post #10 here , and why, for example, they seem to work with 2170P-3/SYSM set to 2 or 3, but not 0 or 1.


----------



## jjmilo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> *The Image-Processing Chart posted above in message #707 has been significantly updated.* I recommend anyone who has downloaded it discard that and download the new one.



A little ambiguity in your statement has me a little confused. I assume the chart in post #707 is the newest one since there is no other subsequent to it. Please advise


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjmilo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A little ambiguity in your statement has me a little confused. I assume the chart in post #707 is the newest one since there is no other subsequent to it. Please advise



Yes, it's the one in post #707 that has been updated. I didn't want to leave the old one hanging around.


----------



## Jediphish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is the only one I'm aware of, for the 34XBR910, which has only a few differences with the later sets. There are a couple of vatiations of this, but this seems the most informed. Note that some of the "descriptions" are, at best, wild guesses.
> 
> 
> But note that this is not as useful as you would believe. The spreadsheets give you *no* clue as to how the code-settings are memorized for different combinations of picture mode, video mode, and input type. Except for an occasional quick look, I have found the spreadsheets essentially useless! They helped at the beginning of my experimentation, but only the charts can make plain what is stored when you WRITE the settings.
> 
> 
> Example: The MID5 code-group alone starts with a table of 64 columns X 19 rows, all visible in the charts. The spreadsheets give no clue! Same with the complex 2170P groups. The simple vertical listing in the spreadsheet is useless!
> 
> 
> Both are attached>




I completely understand that that chart is the more important document. The chart which is in Adobe PDF "looks" like it was originally an excel file. Is the CHART available in excel? I ask because I'd like to be able to Hide rows that aren't applicable to me ("Twin View, "Freeze," etc.), as well as be able to record original settings and new settings side by side with the defaults.


If there's not one, then I might set out to create one based on the pdf file, which will obviously take some time. If I do, I'll post it when its done.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The chart which is in Adobe PDF "looks" like it was originally an excel file. Is the CHART available in excel?



Ah! Your dream is our dream! I'm sure it started as an Excel file somewhere deep in the bowels of Sony Engineering, but what comes out is either a printed service manual or a PDF document of the same, both available from Sony. The definitive Sony chart (and I use "definitive" loosely) is certainly edited down from an original PDF of the manual, as it is identical. But I have never seen an Excel file of it. One look at the MID5 charts should dissuade you from converting it! Maybe a couple of important pages . . .


For my part, I have simply printed Sony's charts in color and stapled them all together, and I annotate it in fine pencil. Most of the charts I need have room to scribble small. I now pretty much ignore the MID5 monster and the 2170P-3 charts, as I have distilled their essence into a new chart I can manage. (See post #707.)


Sony won't even give up concise descriptions of the codes. Getting the original chart (and there must be dozens of variations) would be impossible without a "friend" deep inside Sony.


----------



## Jediphish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ah! Your dream is our dream! I'm sure it started as an Excel file somewhere deep in the bowels of Sony Engineering, but what comes out is either a printed service manual or a PDF document of the same, both available from Sony. The definitive Sony chart (and I use "definitive" loosely) is certainly edited down from an original PDF of the manual, as it is identical. But I have never seen an Excel file of it. One look at the MID5 charts should dissuade you from converting it! Maybe a couple of important pages . . .
> 
> 
> For my part, I have simply printed Sony's charts in color and stapled them all together, and I annotate it in fine pencil. Most of the charts I need have room to scribble small. I now pretty much ignore the MID5 monster and the 2170P-3 charts, as I have distilled their essence into a new chart I can manage. (See post #707.)
> 
> 
> Sony won't even give up concise descriptions of the codes. Getting the original chart (and there must be dozens of variations) would be impossible without a "friend" deep inside Sony.




Creating the spreadsheet itself wouldn't be that much work - entering the data, on the other hand would be very cumbersome, but eventually doable, with liberal cutting and pasting where values are the same. I certainly recognize that there are better ways to spend my time.


Because I only use a few of the inputs and don't have the Twin View function, I'd just like to be able to hide them if I don't need them.


Do we know the date of the Service Manual from which the "current" chart is taken?


----------



## AVfile




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Re greyscales... based on some more recent experiments using various 6500K references, it looks like my earlier best-guess/color-differentation eyeballing method may not have worked quite as well as hoped, and that I was probably leaning a bit too much toward orange on my yellows, overdriving red and underdriving green on the display.



Before I was ISF calibrated, I was WAY too blue. I am an experienced tweaker and I do know the theory. I don't know about staring at the clouds in the sky, but I used a 6500K light shining on a Kodak Grey Card, in a dark room. It was really difficult to dial in by eye but I thought I had achieved a greyscale that looked pretty good (better than stock). I found out months later it was actually way cool, something like 8000 - 10000 K. My ISF stepped in and measured it properly with the proper test equipment, and my blue was 50-60% too high across the board, and my red was about 10-15% too low in some areas. He said this was a common error using a light on a card. I don't know what method you used.


----------



## ADU

Interesting. Erring toward the blue, or the red the way I did on my yellows does seem to be a common mistake when eyeballing greyscale. And as one of the guys (Ken or Glen, can't remember which) mentioned a number of pages ago, there does seem to be some noticeable variation in color among different brands of 6500K fluorescent bulbs. So I've been reluctant to use those as my sole reference so far w/o knowing their chromaticity and CRI. Someone posted chromaticity for the Philips Daylight Deluxe here but the B&Ms only have those in 4-foot size which is too big for my purposes. And I haven't had much luck locating similar info on smaller bulbs. All I've been able to find out about the Walmart LOA 6500K bulbs is they have an 84 CRI and use tri-phosphor, which isn't much help.


The last adjustment I did was using an LCD monitor which seemed to have reasonably decent color-decoding and greyscale as my guide. And I'm fairly pleased with the results so far (although I'm sure there's quite a bit of variation in LCDs too). The bulb approach still interests me however, and I'll probably be re-visiting these adjustments a couple more times as I can lay my hands on other potential 6500K sources to test. My eyes may not be very good at guessing what 6500K is w/o a reference, but the more sources I have for comparison, the better I think I'm starting to get at distinguishing the subtler differences between them.


Another prospect I've considered is simply adjusting the greyscale (or one of the other temperature modes) to precisely match my 6500K bias lighting, _regardless of how accurate it is_... just to keep everything tidy. As nutty as that probably sounds, maybe it would work ok from a purely aesthetic standpoint.


----------



## AVfile

The bulb I originally used was an inexpensive 18" one from Home Depot. I forget what brand it is (mabye Philips) but I took it to work and had it measured by a wise old man in our spectroradiometer test lab. It didn't do too badly, maybe 150K too warm, and chromaticity was close enough for the money and my gross purposes. I used it for bias lighting too.


But now that I'm ISF calibrated, I've got a bulb from Ideal-lume which is more accurate, but I haven't measured it:

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm 


I have two monitors side-by side at work, a new Dell LCD and an older CRT. The CRT has a "6500K" setting which looks really nice. The LCD never looks very good, color wise. It has 3 preset settings: Blue, Red, Normal. It looks best on "Red". The other settings are way too cool. To be honest I wouldn't trust either monitor as is. It is possible for the user to make custom settings.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Another prospect I've considered is simply adjusting the greyscale (or one of the other temperature modes) to precisely match my 6500K bias lighting, _regardless of how accurate it is_... just to keep everything tidy. As nutty as that probably sounds, maybe it would work ok from a purely aesthetic standpoint.



Sounds reasonable, good luck.


----------



## ADU

Tks.


> Quote:
> The bulb I originally used was an inexpensive 18" one from Home Depot. I forget what brand it is (mabye Philips) but I took it to work and had it measured by a wise old man in our spectroradiometer test lab. It didn't do too badly, maybe 150K too warm, and chromaticity was close enough for the money and my gross purposes. I used it for bias lighting too.



Probably a GE or Sylvania, which I've heard may be less close than the Philips. umr posted some chromaticity measurements on the Ideal-Lume here . Not sure which model that applies to though. (I think they use different bulbs depending on the price/model.)


To get really decent results with the bulb/grey card approach, I'm beginning to believe that you'd need a bulb that's close to the CIE D65 chromaticity spec and also very high in color rendering index (CRI), which might rule out most of the over-the-counter bulbs. Despite what's suggested in the link above, those Kodak "grey" cards appear to be a _color composite_ that's probably designed to look neutral in full-spectrum lighting. So the color they reflect back might be somewhat skewed by spikes in a fluorescent bulb's spectral response... another reason I'm leaning a bit more towards the monitor approach at this point, and hoping maybe to find a newer computer LCD monitor with a really decent 6500K setting. Or maybe I can rent a little B&W 6500K SMPTE reference CRT somewhere for a reasonable price.


If you're using a cheaper over-the counter 6500K bulb with a lower CRI but decent chromaticity, perhaps a neutral _white card_ might be less effected by spectral spikes in the bulb.


----------



## Jediphish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ah! Your dream is our dream! I have never seen an Excel file of it. One look at the MID5 charts should dissuade you from converting it! Maybe a couple of important pages . . .
> 
> 
> Getting the original chart (and there must be dozens of variations) would be impossible without a "friend" deep inside Sony.




OK, I've started the project to convert the pdf chart to a spreadsheet - 3 pages down - 18 to go. If I don't kill myself and only do a few pages each day, I should have it done in a little over a week.


In case anyone cares, I'm using OpenOffice, as I don't have the MS Office Suite and prefer open source programs when and where I can use them for free. I can open Excel files in OpenOffice, but am not sure about the reverse compatibility.


----------



## neo505

I was resetting the System NVM Data and I pressed 7, 9, then enter twice and now my picture is screwed up and I don't know what I did. HD channels sometimes won't even show up. How can I get the TV back to the way it was before?


Edit: Just thought I'd point out two more things. I have the KD-30XS955. And I can view 480i HD channels but can't view 720p or 1080i HD channels. They just appear dark, but I can hear the sound. What should I be looking to alter in the service menu to bring back these HD channels? Please help


----------



## Jediphish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *neo505* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was resetting the System NVM Data and I pressed 7, 9, then enter twice and now my picture is screwed up and I don't know what I did. HD channels sometimes won't even show up. How can I get the TV back to the way it was before?
> 
> 
> Edit: Just thought I'd point out two more things. I have the KD-30XS955. And I can view 480i HD channels but can't view 720p or 1080i HD channels. They just appear dark, but I can hear the sound. What should I be looking to alter in the service menu to bring back these HD channels? Please help




Man, that really sucks. Have you tried re-entering all of your original values? I have no idea what resetting the NVM data does, so I stay clear of the 7 and 9 buttons.


Once, I hit 7 by mistake and the screen changed from "Service" to "Initi-" or something like that. I almost had a heart attack - it changed back to "Service" after a couple of seconds thankfully.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is my experience with these. I have tried hard to understand what the 3DNR (3-D Noise Reduction, also in many DVD players) parameters do and what happens if they're changed. I have put up a 480i picture with critical detail, hard edges and some grainy noise. Then I have gone thru many of the 3DNR settings (if not all!), changing the values up and down to see if anything changed on-screen. In every case where the picture didn't simply disappear, turn to gibberish, or radically reverse color, I couldn't notice anything useful. E.g. I could never find one parameter that might mean "degree of noise reduction" or "detail preservation" with 0 = off, and 1-3 having increasing effect. Nothing.
> 
> 
> Maybe I was not using the right test conditions or a suitable picture. Maybe this stuff kicks in only with horrible fringe-reception conditions or bad VHS tapes, I don't know. But I felt it was a waste of time, and I was pleased with the video reproduction as it was. There were so many *other* settings that were critical, I let 3DNR settings alone. I have recently on a rainy Sayurday tried again to identify useful tweaks in 3DNR. No-go; nothing new.
> 
> 
> Having said that, and having little use for the horribly unsophisticated "enhancements" of the Vivid mode, I have taken over Vivid for my own purposes and made sure *all* of the mode-dependent settings were initially identical to Pro, a conservative picture mode. Parameters nos. 43 and 41 didn't respond to tweaking, and now I don't care, my initial reasoning being "if the only change in the chart is for Vivid, I don't need it!"
> 
> 
> Bottom line: So many other parameters are more important, I wouldn't sweat a single drop over this. My chart shows exceptions in the Vivid-Others column for #62, too, but I have long ago made these parameters all the same for all modes (same as Pro). And that's where they have stayed, including the more radically changing #45-CLV.



]


Ken, Any recommended settings for GYR and GYB?


It seems i've been fiddling around with these settings a lot lately and can't seem to get the greens right so i just left them at default values of GYR-9 and GYB-6 for now but i think there is room for improvemnt to make them better, any recommended settings you would use?I tried the color filters from DVE and tried using RGBS to turn just the green gun on but it seems i have to adjust GYR-GYB very low to match the back ground color in essence creating a green push which i don't think is right.


Any recommended settings to fix this issue?


Matt~


----------



## neo505

Well...I was able to bring back the dark HD stations by changing the value of FIXS in the CA2171 category. It looks like I only need to change some geometry and everything will be back to normal...I hope. But any help is still greatly appreciated.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ken, Any recommended settings for GYR and GYB?



Yes. This is an easy one.


These settings do not adjust the individual colors. Thay set up a complex decoding martix for extracting color, and it really can't be eyeballed. For any one input, there really is only one correct setting. If you use the DVE or AVIA DVDs for setting up your DVD player's input, you have done it right. Period. If you still aren't happy with the greens, you can't blame the player/TV combination!


The good news is that most inputs share the same color-matrix settings just fine, and using DVE to set these parameters will also set it for all other similar inputs. If you wish to go through the process on your own set (DVE works well), I recommend you use 2170P-2/RGBS to turn on only the individual color guns instead of using the color filters.


More good news: Many folks have reported roughtly the same settings after they go through this process. For me it was 14-14-5-3 for RYR thru GYB, respectively. There is a little sloppiness in the proces, and at other times I have set it to 13-15-5-3, and so have others. Not a big deal, since you have gotten away from the huge red push that comes from the factory. I assigned these settings to the "Standard (Normal?)" choice in the user menus.


Viewing those color bars with the green-only gun really explicitly identifies green push; so it does with red, too. Get that right, and your TV is now okay. Or you can just punch in the above numbers (14-14-5-3), and you will be *very* close. For you, the 5-3 pair is all-inportant.


You might be seeing a green push in the original video material for some reason. Food commercials use a red or red-orange "push" all the time. The demo videos on DVE are fairly neutral, and you might start there to see what you've accomplished.


----------



## todd95008




KenTech said:


> I recommend you use 2170P-2/RGBS to turn on only the individual color guns instead of using the color filters.
> 
> 
> Viewing those color bars with the green-only gun really explicitly identifies green push; so it does with red, too. Get that right, and your TV is now okay. Or you can just punch in the above numbers (14-14-5-3), and you will be *very* close. For you, the 5-3 pair is all-important. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Yes, use 2170-2/RGBS instead of the DVE filters. They are much more accurate !!
> 
> I have my matrix/decoder settings at 14-13-6-3 with a an average gray scale color temp of around 6600 kelvin (measured with DVE & SpyderTV).
> 
> I have found that the levels of RGB as decoded change as a function of the color slider with blue the most sensitive and green the least. That is to say that when you back down the color slider (I always have to do this after this adj in DVE) blue de-saturates more than red and red more than green. This can be seen easily when viewing the color decoder check in AVIA (it gives +/- 20% squares).
> 
> I don't know if this is a color axis change (tint) or if Sony designed it that way to de-saturate blue Vs the way too blue gray scale these sets come with.
> 
> I also fought a similar problem in calibrating the grey scale (color temp changes Vs color slider)
> 
> 
> For this reason it may be best to "touch up" the color matrix/decoder settings a notch here and there to compensate for some non-linearities in Sony's design.
> 
> Example:If skintones look too green or red or tint of primary/secondary colors looks off. I think initially I had my GYR-GYB at 7-4 but changed it to compensate when I run the color slider back down to a more reasonable level (especially for analog cable) !!!
> 
> 
> Todd


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have found that the levels of RGB as decoded change as a function of the color slider with blue the most sensitive and green the least. That is to say that when you back down the color slider (I always have to do this after this adj in DVE) blue de-saturates more than red and red more than green. This can be seen easily when viewing the color decoder check in AVIA (it gives +/- 20% squares).



Well, isn't *that* interesting! I wonder if that is a correct interpretation of those results. I will experiment in the next few days and see if I come to the same conclusion.


What I fond odd -- and this would be with the settings for color matrix, color amount (Color), and color phase (Hue) set just right with the DVE patterns -- is that the AVIA color-decoder check routinely shows a bit of blue push on my TV. Not a lot. But it does make those blue-nylon parkas people wear in outdoor shots seem, well, *electric.* It's not a push that irritates me, as red does.


I have pulled the color charts off of the DVE disk and measured them on a computer, and they're dead-on, so we can't blame the disk.


----------



## todd95008




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, isn't *that* interesting! I wonder if that is a correct interpretation of those results. I will experiment in the next few days and see if I come to the same conclusion.
> 
> 
> I have pulled the color charts off of the DVE disk and measured them on a computer, and they're dead-on, so we can't blame the disk.



With AVIA, once you get the 3 colors & tints (all boxes equal) you can run the color slider down until green is at -5% and measure blue and red.

Red will be about -10% and blue at -15%.

As i said before, I think this was designed in to offset the >10k color temp out of the box.


I don't blame DVE (I get similar results with AVIA) but do think the Sony sets have some weird offsets or color leakage in both the matrix decoder and the gray scale RGB cuts (at least the HS420 does).


If you have a problem with blue push (never measued that) it may be from CXA2171-3/4 ?

My HS420 series had the blue one notch higher than red by default.

This will not change cuts & drives (grayscale) but will increase red or blue saturation (only for V5/6 and HDMI) so before the final (sure final) round of calibration I set both to 5 or 6.


----------



## ADU

neo505,


If you need other help than can be found here I believe there's a "900" number that can be contacted for "non-authorized service tech support" from Sony for a fee (somethin like $3/minute with a minimum of $20/call). Sony Parts (800-488-SONY) should have more info. How much help they'd be in your situation, I don't know. Never had the stones to try an NVM reset for fear of removing factory SM adjustments. Getting the TV serviced (or perhaps worked on by a professional calibrator) might be another option, though that could run more $$ if it's out of warranty.


----------



## ADU

todd95008,


The behavior you're seeing with the Color control may be normal. While it's tempting to think of that as simply your "saturation" adjustment, it's unfortunately a bit more complicated than that, and more of a crucial link in the TV's color decoding system. To maintain the most accurate color on the display, the Color and Hue controls really shouldn't be changed once the decoders have been properly adjusted.


*The CXA2171/CBGN, CRGN, YGN controls you're referring to are I believe 1080i color decoding offsets, possibly designed to compensate for minor differences in color-decoding between 1080i and other signals. I think most or all of the parameters in that circuit should be 1080i/33.75kHz-related.


*CXA2171/MTRX is I believe possibly designed to change the color space on the TV. If all you're running is basic OTA or cable/sat 1080i, I don't think their should be a reason to change this. However, in case you're tempted... be advised that the MTRX parameter seems to work differently with respect to reading and writing from memory than most other parameters.

_[*Edit: Some of the above speculations were not exactly correct. Please see the following pages for more current and IMO correct info on how the MTRX and other CXA2171 parameters really work and should be used.]_


----------



## todd95008




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> todd95008,
> 
> 
> The behavior you're seeing with the Color control may be normal. While it's tempting to think of that as simply your "saturation" adjustment, it's unfortunately a bit more complicated than that, and more of a crucial link in the TV's color decoding system. To maintain the most accurate color on the display, the Color and Hue controls really shouldn't be changed once the decoders have been properly adjusted.
> 
> 
> The CXA2171/CBGN, CRGN, YGN controls you're referring to are I believe 1080i color decoding offsets, designed to compensate for minor differences in color-decoding between 31.5KHz 480p signals and 33.75khz 1080i signals. I think most or all of the parameters in that circuit should be 1080i/33.75kHz-related.
> 
> 
> CXA2171/MTRX is I believe designed to change the color space for input devices that don't conform to the usual ATSC color space. If all you're running is basic OTA or cable/sat 1080i, I don't think their should be a reason to change this. However, in case you're tempted...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BE ADVISED that the MTRX value is automatically stored without being saved to memory. So be sure to make note of the original value before changing it.* This control is "global" (ie effects 1080i on all inputs) as opposed to input-sensitive on my 34XBR800 btw... though it's quite possible that may have been changed on newer Sony models.



In theory yes, the color control should not need to be adjusted once the chroma/color decoder is adjusted. When I do this with my calibrated PC monitor everything is fine but with the sony I have to run the color level back down to keep all colors from looking like cartoons. Even the video samples on DVE look oversaturated and these tend to be very accurate compared with most DVD's.

I won't even talk about the way oversaturated cable tv !!!


Yes the MTRX value is for HD but the CXA2171/CBGN, CRGN controls are for component inputs (480i to 1080i). When you have a proper greyscale (one that is not too blue) they should be the same number. I set mine to match measured test signals on RF & composite/s-video inputs. If I left them at the factory default blue was too strong !! I don't have my charts here but I think I set both to 6 ??


Todd


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In theory yes, the color control should not need to be adjusted once the chroma/color decoder is adjusted. When I do this with my calibrated PC monitor everything is fine but with the sony I have to run the color level back down to keep all colors from looking like cartoons. Even the video samples on DVE look oversaturated and these tend to be very accurate compared with most DVD's.



Interesting, because this is not my experience with my 36XS955. When the set is calibrated for Color, Hue, and the color matrix (14-14-5-3), the observed colors are quite natural on DVDs in general, DVE in particular. The restaurant scene in Title 17 is perfect!


Analog-cable broadcast, on the other hand, is all over the place. I typically run the COlor down from 31 to 22-26 for MTV, FoodTV, sometimes HGTV. (Sometimes program-dependent.) Black level shows similar anarchy! But DVDs and most HDTV? Glorious.


Wonder how your TV differs . . .


----------



## Cleanupthat

Hi,

I am new here and i just got my hs420 set yesturday, but have one problem.

There is a slight upwards bow on the picture on the left and right sides of the screen. It is most noticable when a ticker is crossing the screen and when playing a fps on my 360 (moving horizontally). I have tried to fix it in the service menu, but have had no luck. I have tried RSAP, LBOW, RBOW,VBOW,PIN, and a few other things. Is this adjustable??? If it isnt i will live with it because its not that big of a deal (right at the moment). I also dont want to have to EVER lug this tv downstairs, as it was a nightmare bringing it up. PLEASE, Any help will be appreciated. THANKS.....


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am new here and i just got my hs420 set yesturday, but have one problem.
> 
> There is a slight upwards bow on the picture on the left and right sides of the screen. It is most noticable when a ticker is crossing the screen and when playing a fps on my 360 (moving horizontally). I have tried to fix it in the service menu, but have had no luck. I have tried RSAP, LBOW, RBOW,VBOW,PIN, and a few other things. Is this adjustable??? If it isnt i will live with it because its not that big of a deal (right at the moment). I also dont want to have to EVER lug this tv downstairs, as it was a nightmare bringing it up. PLEASE, Any help will be appreciated. THANKS.....



You might try VCEN, VPIN and HTPZ. A crosshatch pattern should be used to accurately set these parameters. VCEN is used to equalize the vertical bow at the top and bottom of screen. VPIN is used to make the vertical lines as straight as possible. HTPZ is used to make the horizontal lines as parallel as possible.


Raoul


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You might try VCEN, VPIN and HTPZ. A crosshatch pattern should be used to accurately set these parameters. VCEN is used to equalize the vertical bow at the top and bottom of screen. VPIN is used to make the vertical lines as straight as possible. HTPZ is used to make the horizontal lines as parallel as possible.
> 
> 
> Raoul



I can confirm that these are the settings I used to correct a similar "bow" on my 34HS420.


----------



## Cleanupthat

Thank you, i will try those settings and i will reply back on how it goes.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Thanks ken i appreciate the help!


I just left my GYr-GYB serttings at default since i did'nt see much improvement setting them lower,since all it did was actually cause a green push and colors to bleed.So instead i'm quite happy at them being in their factory defaults of GYR-9 and GYB-6.


I got rid of red push though by adjusting RYR-15 and RYB-15 though by using DVE.


Thanks for your help










Matt~


----------



## Cleanupthat

Unfortunatly, these things did not fix my problem. I will try to explain my problem more clearly.

The problem i am having is on the sides of the picture. When an image is moving horizontally i notice on the on the right side the image is bowing outwards then when the image goes into the middle of the screen it is normoal and flat. When it goes to the left side the image bows outwards again (not as bad as the right side). All of the settings i tried in the service menu, have not helped this problem at all. I have been trying to correct the problem while watching a ticker or while moving horizontally on Call of duty 2 on my 360. The image also seems to stretch a little when this bowing outwards occurs. The closest setting in the service menu that seemed to help slightly was VCEN, is there a HCEN Because i think that would help me more if there was something like that. I am lost here. I think the problem is bad geometry that is unfixable. If anybody has a clue on what i have just said, please give me your input on my situation. Thanks..... If you have any questions about my problem i will answer you, to try to make my situation better.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Unfortunatly, these things did not fix my problem. I will try to explain my problem more clearly.
> 
> The problem i am having is on the sides of the picture. When an image is moving horizontally i notice on the on the right side the image is bowing outwards then when the image goes into the middle of the screen it is normoal and flat. When it goes to the left side the image bows outwards again (not as bad as the right side). All of the settings i tried in the service menu, have not helped this problem at all. I have been trying to correct the problem while watching a ticker or while moving horizontally on Call of duty 2 on my 360. The image also seems to stretch a little when this bowing outwards occurs. The closest setting in the service menu that seemed to help slightly was VCEN, is there a HCEN Because i think that would help me more if there was something like that. I am lost here. I think the problem is bad geometry that is unfixable. If anybody has a clue on what i have just said, please give me your input on my situation. Thanks..... If you have any questions about my problem i will answer you, to try to make my situation better.



This is called "barrel distortion," the opposite of "pincushion." The same adjustments can be used to resolve both. I have used these settings on my set to resolve such problems: VPIN, MPIN, PIN, VBOW & LBOW. I don't recall the earlier list of settings you may have tried, but if any of these are new, try 'em out.


Good Luck!


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes the MTRX value is for HD but the CXA2171/CBGN, CRGN controls are for component inputs (480i to 1080i).



Actually it looks like we're both slightly off and that these controls effect 480p/1080i, but not 480i. FWIW, I did a few tests to see which inputs and signals are effected by these controls on my 34XBR800 and this was the result.
Code:


Code:


INPUT      SIGNAL    MTRX  CBGN  CRGN  YGN

Composite  480i      No    No    No    No
Component  480i      No    No    No    No
Component  480p      Yes   Yes   Yes   Yes
DVI        480p      Yes   Yes   Yes   Yes
DVI        1080i     Yes   Yes   Yes   Yes

So it appears that these may change the color space (MTRX) and offset decoding (CBGN, CRGN, YGN) for ATSC/HD (480p/720p/1080i) versus NTSC/SD (480i).


I can't be sure about 720p since I don't have any 720p signals handy, and it also has to be "upconverted" for display like 480i. And my 34XBR800 has a slightly older version of this chip (CXA2151, rather than CXA2171), which could work a little differently. But based on the above it looks like these are probably ATSC/HD-based controls. Maybe someone else could try 720p to confirm this. (Pls recall the earlier caveat re writing down the original value for MTRX before changing it, since this control is automatically saved w/o being written to memory. 0-Enter won't work on MTRX either.)


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Unfortunatly, these things did not fix my problem. I will try to explain my problem more clearly.
> 
> The problem i am having is on the sides of the picture. When an image is moving horizontally i notice on the on the right side the image is bowing outwards then when the image goes into the middle of the screen it is normoal and flat. When it goes to the left side the image bows outwards again (not as bad as the right side). Thanks..... If you have any questions about my problem i will answer you, to try to make my situation better.



I'm not quite sure what "bowing outwards" means. Bowing is usually described as being up, down, right, and left. Geometry is always best described relative to horizontal and vertical lines. If I understand correctly, you are saying that horizontal lines bow upwards on the left and right. The parameters I mentioned on my previous post #749, page 25, are the most likely ones to try. Geometry correction is very seldom done with only a couple of parameter changes. Many seemingly minor geometry problems require tweaking of quite a few parameters. Much of it is finding happy mediums between related parameters. A crosshatch pattern is almost a must. Otherwise, you are not seeing the true impact of your adjustments.


Raoul


----------



## Cleanupthat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not quite sure what "bowing outwards" means. Bowing is usually described as being up, down, right, and left. Geometry is always best described relative to horizontal and vertical lines. If I understand correctly, you are saying that horizontal lines bow upwards on the left and right. The parameters I mentioned on my previous post #749, page 25, are the most likely ones to try. Geometry correction is very seldom done with only a couple of parameter changes. Many seemingly minor geometry problems require tweaking of quite a few parameters. Much of it is finding happy mediums between related parameters. A crosshatch pattern is almost a must. Otherwise, you are not seeing the true impact of your adjustments.
> 
> 
> Raoul



Ok, the problem is that the image is distorted on the sides of my hdtv. I only notice the distortion when the image is moving horizontally across the screen. When i watch a ticker such as fox new's the image on the right side is pushing outwards. When the letter in the ticker moves towards the middle it becomes flat and normal. Then when the word or letter of the ticker moves to the left side the image will push outwards again. When i am playing Call of duty 2 on my 360 and moving horizontally the image on the sides will push outwards, but also get distorted a little. In other words the image is being stretched a little also, and it looks weird when i focus my eyes on the left or right side of the screen. My problem is kinda hard to explain, but i will continue to try to explain it the best i can. The problem is not noticable when there is a still image. I only notice the problem when a ticker is moving across the screen or when an image is moving slowly horizontally across the screen. I can live with this problem, but i would like to know if anybody knows if this can be fixed or what is going on here. THANKS...


----------



## Cleanupthat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is called "barrel distortion," the opposite of "pincushion." The same adjustments can be used to resolve both. I have used these settings on my set to resolve such problems: VPIN, MPIN, PIN, VBOW & LBOW. I don't recall the earlier list of settings you may have tried, but if any of these are new, try 'em out.
> 
> 
> Good Luck!



I have tried to change most of those settings but none fix the problem i have. None of those settings fix the problem i have with the image being distorted and kinda stretched on the sides. (And no it is not because of watching a 4:3 program and stretching the image to 16:9) The distortion and stretching, and bowing outwards is all noticable all everything.


----------



## justsc

You say this is not from watching 4:3 material in a stretched mode. So, are you watching a 4:3 picture or a widescreen picture?


----------



## Cleanupthat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You say this is not from watching 4:3 material in a stretched mode. So, are you watching a 4:3 picture or a widescreen picture?



It happens while watching 4:3 material (when stretched to fit the whole picture) And while watching 16:9 material.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It happens while watching 4:3 material (when stretched to fit the whole picture) And while watching 16:9 material.



Is the 16:9 material you're watching true HD?


I was thinking all along this might be the expected results when using a stretch mode with 4:3 material. It is perfectly normal, when watching stretched 4:3 material, for pictures to look kind of blown-up outwardly on the sides, while the center looks perfect. This is not a bug or a geometry error.


If this is happening with a true HD signal in widescreen then it could be a problem.


----------



## Cleanupthat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is the 16:9 material you're watching true HD?
> 
> 
> I was thinking all along this might be the expected results when using a stretch mode with 4:3 material. It is perfectly normal, when watching stretched 4:3 material, for pictures to look kind of blown-up outwardly on the sides, while the center looks perfect. This is not a bug or a geometry error.
> 
> 
> If this is happening with a true HD signal in widescreen then it could be a problem.



The problem occurs when playing my xbox 360. (In true hd). The cable company is coming next wednesday to hook up the hd converter and stuff. If it happens for my 360 games i am almost 99percent sure i have a problem here. Later today i am going to go back in the service menu (again)and toggle around with the info you provided (again). I will report back.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The problem occurs when playing my xbox 360. (In true hd). The cable company is coming next wednesday to hook up the hd converter and stuff. If it happens for my 360 games i am almost 99percent sure i have a problem here. Later today i am going to go back in the service menu (again)and toggle around with the info you provided (again). I will report back.



Best of luck!


But don't expect to be able to make any improvements to stretched 4:3 material. What you're seeing is what you should be seeing. They leave the center alone and stretch the sides to fill the screen, and it should look exactly as you have described. You would be making a serious mistake to try using the SM to correct for that - if you do so you will really screw-up your set.


----------



## Cleanupthat

Ok,

I HAVE AN UPDATE ON MY PROBLEM.I will try to adress my problem more clearly. I have some straight lines across the screen, the lower left hand corner of the screen seems to be moving the straight line up all little causing the distortion and the top left hand side of the screen seems to be moving the straight line slightly downward. On the lower right hand side of the screen the line is curling up a little just like the lower left of the screen. The upper right seems to be slightly curled downward like the upper left. The middle of the screen seems perfect. What setting can i use to fix this? I think if i can make the lines straight that will solve my problem. I will try the settings again, if you already gave me them. Thanks....


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok,
> 
> I HAVE AN UPDATE ON MY PROBLEM.I will try to adress my problem more clearly. I have some straight lines across the screen, the lower left hand corner of the screen seems to be moving the straight line up all little causing the distortion and the top left hand side of the screen seems to be moving the straight line slightly downward. On the lower right hand side of the screen the line is curling up a little just like the lower left of the screen. The upper right seems to be slightly curled downward like the upper left. The middle of the screen seems perfect. What setting can i use to fix this? I think if i can make the lines straight that will solve my problem. I will try the settings again, if you already gave me them. Thanks....



What's your overscan?

All tube TV's bow in the corners, due to the fact that they have to reflect a round signal onto a flat screen. If the bowing cannot be hidden with 4-5% overscan you need to find yourself a sony technician that knows how to work with the magnets. There is just some bowing, curling and stretching that cannot be fixed using the service menu.


----------



## Cleanupthat

1 more question. If i dont save anything in the sony service menu my settings will go back, right??


----------



## Cleanupthat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What's your overscan?
> 
> All tube TV's bow in the corners, due to the fact that they have to reflect a round signal onto a flat screen. If the bowing cannot be hidden with 4-5% overscan you need to find yourself a sony technician that knows how to work with the magnets. There is just some bowing, curling and stretching that cannot be fixed using the service menu.



Hmmmm. Ok, so what your saying is this bowing and curling and stretching i am having on the sides of my tv is normal, while playing my xbox 360, and watching programs? Even though there seems to be more distortion on one side of the screen than the other. Can anybody else confirm my problem is normal? If it is normal i understand. I guess it makes sense for some bowing to be present like u stated. Ummm ok then. Maybe this is another reason tube tvs are so cheap. Too bad i never heard of this problem before.


----------



## Cleanupthat

My overscan.

I am loosing about 4% of the picture on the right hand side. Even though i see more distortion on the right than the left. If i adjust the overscan will that affect the bowing, curling, stretching at all? I am new at all this!


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My overscan.
> 
> I am loosing about 4% of the picture on the right hand side. Even though i see more distortion on the right than the left. If i adjust the overscan will that affect the bowing, curling, stretching at all? I am new at all this!



Rule number 1 - The picture must ALWAYS be centered, vertically and horisontally.

That is where everything starts. In the service manuals I have read it's called "Raster Center Adjustment". After you finish that, you see how straight and evently spaced you can get the horisontal and vertical lines using the 2170D-1 and 2 groups.


Then you start compromising - hiding the bows and curls using overscan and blanking.


If you display an overscan pattern, it has to be centered with equal amounds of overscan on all sides. If you have to go beyond 4-5%, to hide the imperfections, you need to call in the troops.


----------



## Cleanupthat

Where is he raster center adjustment you are talking about? To adjust overscan shouldnt i just adjust the horizontal and vertical size and position?


----------



## Cleanupthat

What does "blanking" do?


----------



## Jediphish

Cleanupthat - I was just doing this last night. Go way back to the original few pages of this post and download a pdf file that KenTech posted for the geometry of the XS955 (I don't know the post number of the exact file name, but its there). That pdf document will discuss how to center the raster.


I don't know what Blanking does, but its okay to turn it on - just remember to set it back to the original value and Write it (save) when you're done.


After centering the raster, your display image may still be off-center - you adjust the image using MID2 or MID3 depending on whether you're adjusting at 480i or some other resolution. I adjusted the image using MID2 because my DVD player only outputs 480i.


When I centered and positioned the raster, I did it so taht the edges of the raster were just outside the visible screen. Then I adjusted the image using MID2 to get my overscan down to 2.5%.


I'm still not 100% sure of how to properly adjust the image for 1080i (which is the next step). I used the PATN crosshatch pattern from the QM/DTV menu and then used MID3 to adjust the image. I'm just not sure why the MID3 horizontal adjustment is labeled "envelope" instead of "position." (I'm not looking at the chart right now, so it could be "envelope" instead of "size."). For MID2, the first four values are for Horizontal size and position, and Vertical Size and Position, so I had no trouble there.


I'm sure someone else will chine in, but hopefully, I've helped you out a little.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Where is he raster center adjustment you are talking about? To adjust overscan shouldnt i just adjust the horizontal and vertical size and position?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What does "Blanking" do?



We cannot keep repeating ourselves. There are excellent search tools in this thread. Centering and overscan: Read articles by DSperber or myself. Blanking: KenTech wrote an excellent one.


----------



## Jediphish

KenTech -


Have you considered authoring a Wikipedia article on the calibration of late model Sony CRTs, or producing a webpage of some sort with the same information? Your articles are helpful, but so much good information is found only in individual replies to individual questions, that it is impossible to comprehend all of it (unless you've been reading this thread religiously since the beginning of time). Given that what is learned about these sets is a work-in-progress, it would be great if there was a single place (besides this linear format forum) that you could post and update your discoveries.


Just my suggestion. Thanks as always.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> KenTech -
> 
> 
> Have you considered authoring a Wikipedia article on the calibration of late model Sony CRTs, or producing a webpage of some sort with the same information? Your articles are helpful, but so much good information is found only in individual replies to individual questions, that it is impossible to comprehend all of it (unless you've been reading this thread religiously since the beginning of time). Given that what is learned about these sets is a work-in-progress, it would be great if there was a single place (besides this linear format forum) that you could post and update your discoveries.
> 
> 
> Just my suggestion. Thanks as always.



I've often thought about the same thing.










But, after reading through a number of times, I find great value in reading the replies and disagreements as well. Sometimes Ken's posts only make sense in light of the posts to which he is responding. I think it might sound "out of context" to compile just Ken's work, and it would require a major effort on his part to write something that ties it all together.


If he does do something like you're suggesting I will wait in line to get a copy.


----------



## Cleanupthat

Ok,

Can someone just please tell me the exact setting in the service menu for the hs420 to adjust a straight line from not being straight on the sides of the picture. Or the setting for a line on the bottom left of the screen curling up a little and top left, curling down. Same with the other side of the screen. Is there an exact setting in the service menu to adjust that???? I have been trying all different things in the service menu, and im afraid i might mess something up!!!! If i dont save my settings by pressing mute and other buttons, will my settings go back to normal????????? Please help me.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok,
> 
> Can someone just please tell me the exact setting in the service menu for the hs420 to adjust a straight line from not being straight on the sides of the picture. Or the setting for a line on the bottom left of the screen curling up a little and top left, curling down. Same with the other side of the screen. Is there an exact setting in the service menu to adjust that????



I believe the service menu items affecting these "linearity" artifacts are in the D-CONV group. Of course tweaking these is partially related to the image that's on your screen, i.e. the amount of overscan you've adjusted for (assuming proper centering and sizing, using a proper test pattern). The amount of curvature/bowing you see is a function of how much extreme-perimiter image you've "cropped" through overscan adjustments. The more image you show, the more the bowing is apparent.


There is some subtlety and delicacy here, and further variability depending on whether or not you've also had a Sony technician apply permalloy magnets to deal with convergence problems. The service menu can only deal with adjustments to deal with horizontal line convergence issues. Convergence problems on vertical lines can only be dealt with using magnets. And inevitably, these magnets will also affect linearity... either intentionally or unintentionally.


So, looking at my adjustments in the D-CONV area, and realizing that my numbers will likely not be entirely useful on your set (since I HAVE had magnets applied to my XBR960 for initial convergence problems), my relevant D-CONV settings (original and adjusted) are as follows:


0-YBWU (45,38) upper Ybow

1-YBWL (43,38) lower Ybow

2-RSAP (31,31) right H amp (offset)

3-RUMB (27,27) right upper middle bow

4-RUBW (24,0) right upper bow

5-RLMB (27,27) right lower middle bow

6-RLBW (23,25) right lower bow

7-LSAP (23,25) left H amp (offset)

8-LUMB (20,11) left upper middle bow

9-LUBW (15,14) left upper bow

10-LLMB (24,26) left lower middle bow

11-LLBW (22,23) left lower bow


Again, my values may be worthless to you because of my "magnet treatment" which also affects linearity as well as convergence (hence the delicacy and individuality of this whole process). Everybody's set is different. But these items are definitely modified in my list, and I know I was very intent on eliminating the initial "bowing" of horizontal lines I observed at both the top and bottom of the screen when I first got my set. In fact, I'd guess EVERYBODY has observed this problem and wants to cure it.


Don't forget that overscan adjustment, including horizontal/vertical centering, sizing and positioning, is also a crucial set of tweaks you need to apply. These service menu items are in 2170D-1, 2170D-2, and then MID3 (for 480p/720p/1080i, anyway). MID2 is part of the 480i setup.


----------



## Cleanupthat

Can i pick up a calibration disc at best buy or cc? Can i download these discs from the internet? How do i get a calibration disc? Thanks for your input above i will try that.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can i pick up a calibration disc at best buy or cc? Can i download these discs from the internet? How do i get a calibration disc? Thanks for your input above i will try that.



Perhaps. Or you can just order it online. "Digital Video Essentials (DVE)" or AVIA.


But your "delivery method" from these DVD's is relevant, if you only have a 480p player. I have my 480p player connected to INPUT5, with my 720p/1080i sources connected to INPUT6 (through a Zektor switch). While many settings are "global", there are others that are "unique" and memorizied either by input or resolution.


I, personally, did my overscan and linearity adjustments using the OVERSCAN.ZIP test pattern (1080i) which has been posted before in this thread. I connected my PC to my XBR960, using my ATI Radeon 9800 Pro video card and a 1080i component video connection (to INPUT6). I used DVE (480p on INPUT5) to adjust color, brightness, contrast, etc. (in USER menu), and then started from those same values on INPUT6 for further fine-tuning based on actual viewing. I never have gotten around to adjusting the related service menu items. Perhaps one day I'll get an ISF job, but until then I still have "factory" settings in the service menu for color, brightness, etc.


However on recommendation from this thread I found that the service 2170P-4 adjustments for red and green correction produced GIGANTIC improvements in eliminating red-push, which I had initially noticed when the set arrived. I simply went with the recommended values (original and adjusted):


13-RYR (8,13) red correction

14-RYB (9,15) red correction

15-GYR (9,5) green correction

16-GYB (6,4) green correction


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can i pick up a calibration disc at best buy or cc? Can i download these discs from the internet? How do i get a calibration disc? Thanks for your input above i will try that.



Go to Amazon.com - best place to order one or both.


----------



## Jediphish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Go to Amazon.com - best place to order one or both.




I checked Pricegrabber.com when I bought my DVE and found it for $16.xx delivered new (from someplace called MoreMovies or somthing like that. It arrived 3 days later.


----------



## Cleanupthat

When i do a "bow" adjustment in the service menu. What exactly will that fix. What is the bow adjustment for? What does it do? I just want to know exactly what those "bow" adjustments adjust, for the next time i go in this scary service menu. Thanks...


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by *DSperber*
I believe the service menu items affecting these "linearity" artifacts are in the D-CONV group.
Sorry, they're not! The D-CONV group is *exclusively* color convergence -- and only horizintal at that.


You want the *geometry* adjustments in 2170D-2. These straighten up *vertical* lines as well as one can, and additional adjustments in 2170D-1 will correct top and bottom *horizontal lines* not being parallel (#9, HTPZ). See reprint from a typical service manual attached to post #14 *here* 


Attached is a later version of the same information.


If horizontal lines or top/bottom edges are curved, they must be corrected with attached permanent magnets, and that also goes for vertical misconvergence (color fringing on horizontal white lines or edges).

 

xbr960_conv_geom_p7-10.pdf 476.783203125k . file


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1 more question. If i dont save anything in the sony service menu my settings will go back, right??



For geometry and most other settings, that's correct. (There are only a couple of esoteric exceptions.)


Further, you can undo any changes you have made *before* you WRITE (save) anything by pressing the button sequence Zero-Enter. That will READ the previously stored values back into the working memory of the TV, as though you had powered-off and re-entered service mode. But whenever you WRITE some new settings, then they are saved to stored memory, preserved during power-off, and are the values that become effective when you next turn on the TV.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When i do a "bow" adjustment in the service menu. What exactly will that fix. What is the bow adjustment for? What does it do?



Read the available documentation on geometry adjustments. There are pictures there that explain all.


----------



## JeffD2.

After searching for over a year on how to disable the "auto 16:9" feature on my Sony KV-36HS510, I found this in the AVS archives posted by Dwe-

_First of all, the 4:3/16:9 discussion was cool, but this isn't the thread for it, so I will cease from it here. Back to the origin of getting results from DVI.


Now, JUMP off is very cool, because all you need to do now is fix the geometry of the 720p/1080i screen modes. Using your PC, you set your resolution to a 720p/1080i mode. Then you go to the MID_3 menu in service mode and shrink the screen until over-scan is gone. This is very amazing, cause it doesn't mess up your 480 geometry. Now you, like I, can play PC games *and watch 720p/1080i HD content, full screen 4:3.*


It's just that easy and anyone who purposely bought a 4:3 to watch 4:3 screen sizes should do that. Pros and Cons about the quality of any 4:3 squeezing the screen does for 16:9, I will no longer discuss off topic in threads like this that aren't about that. I am helping 4:3 users get the most out of their screen, like I'm so glad ADU and many others did with their knowledge here.


JUMP mode off for life._


I know part of this post relates to using a PC. I now have an upconverting DVD player with EDID but the picture still compresses to 16:9 while using 720p or 1080i for that matter.


What do you think Kentech?


----------



## Cleanupthat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry, they're not! The D-CONV group is *exclusively* color convergence -- and only horizintal at that.
> 
> 
> You want the *geometry* adjustments in 2170D-2. These straighten up *vertical* lines as well as one can, and additional adjustments in 2170D-1 will correct top and bottom *horizontal lines* not being parallel (#9, HTPZ). See reprint from a typical service manual attached to post #14 *here*
> 
> 
> Attached is a later version of the same information.
> 
> 
> If horizontal lines or top/bottom edges are curved, they must be corrected with attached permanent magnets, and that also goes for vertical misconvergence (color fringing on horizontal white lines or edges).



My bottom lines, on the sides of the hdtv are curved upwards. And my top lines, on the sides of the hdtv are curved downwards. The middle seems fine and straight (i think). This problem seems to be causing my distortion on the sides of the tv. So you are saying that the only way to fix my problem is to apply magnets. "sigh" How would i do that, without ruining the set even more??? I guessing i would need to call up some tv technician. Is this magnet treatment fixable by an avearge consumer??? Would you attempt to fix something with magnets. WHAT DO I DO!!!!!!!!!!??? I am frustrated.


----------



## gutwrencher




> Quote:
> Is this magnet treatment fixable by an avearge consumer???



Just a personal experience....but I had this and a splotch issue on my smaller bedroom HDTV. I actually applied a few fridge magnets to the outside of the case in strategic areas and ridded myself of both the crooked lines and the color issue. It may not be a fix forever...but it's worked well. You may have a more serious issue than mine. Play with it a little. I used the round magnets that you would find on the back of refrigerator hooks...like where you would hang ovenmits or towells. A little scotch tape and presto. Weird....but it worked.


----------



## Cleanupthat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gutwrencher* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just a personal experience....but I had this and a splotch issue on my smaller bedroom HDTV. I actually applied a few fridge magnets to the outside of the case in strategic areas and ridded myself of both the crooked lines and the color issue. It may not be a fix forever...but it's worked well. You may have a more serious issue than mine. Play with it a little. I used the round magnets that you would find on the back of refrigerator hooks...like where you would hang ovenmits or towells. A little scotch tape and presto. Weird....but it worked.



If i try to full around with magnets is there any chance, like 1%, that i could permanetly damage my tv, or even temporarily damage it???.


----------



## Jediphish

OK - Using DVE's Overscan and Crosshatch patterns ouput from my DVD player at 480i to Vid5, I successfully centered my raster (using 2170P1 & 2, and then correctly centered and adjusted the image using MID2 0-3. When I watch a DVD everything is great. When I watch my D* HR10-250 for an SD channel output at 480i, everything is great (the grey side panels are perfectly parallel and straight up & down). (I'm at 2.5% overscan by the way for 480i).


But when I switch the output on my HR10-250 to 1080i, I notice that the gray side bars on SD material are narrower (closer to the edge of the bezel). I think this means that I need to adjust the 1080i image using MID3, however I've had mixed results trying to do this. Since my DVD player only outputs DVE images at 480i, I can't use DVE to adjust the 1080i image or overscan. So, I tried using the PATN crosshatch pattern and a 1080i signal from my D*box, and the MID3 table adjustments. *The weird thing is the "original" values that were set for MID3 0-3 (VDHP - VDVS) were different when I checked them after turning on the PATN 1 crosshatch, than the values that were there when I just check MID3 while watching a 1080i output from my HR10-250 (without the PATN crosshatch engaged).


Does anyone know why the values for MID3 for 1080i/V5/V6 would be different with PATN crosshatch turned on than when it is not turned on?*



On a related issue - as I was saying, I got my geometry and overscan set perfectly for 480i V5/V6 using DVE. But now when I output SD source material at 480i, everything looks great, but the same material output/upconverted at 1080i "bows" out (as if PIN and MPIN need to be adjusted). I was under the impression that PIN and MPIN are global settings. Why would they be perfect for 480i and off at 1080i?


Last - are the first four values for MID3 completely equivalent (as far as what they control) as the first four values of MID2 - the acronyms are not the same, nor does there appear to be a Vertical Position value for MID3 (It's labeled Envelope instead).


Thanks as always.


----------



## alchaemy

Hey everyone, awesome thread, i have to admit ive messed with my settings, is there an option to revert to factory defaults?


----------



## Cleanupthat

Is there a setting in the service menu to adjust barrel distortion?

This seems to be the problem i am having, which is the opposite of pincusion.

Here is a link to what my problem kinda looks like, it is not as drastic though.
http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/key=barrel+distortion 


Here is pincusion which appears to be the opposite of my problem.
http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/key=...ion+distortion 


What settings in the service menu for my hs420 can i adjust this "barrel distortion" that i think i have? I was thinking of trying to adjust the upper corner pincusion or UCP, and the lower corner pincusion or LCP. I was thinking VSIZ, and PPHA, might adjust something. I just want to know what settings can fix "barrel distortion". I dont think it would be these picusion adjustment because that is for pincusion, and barrel distortion is the opposite. Is there any other settings for barrel distortion? Before i go back into this scary service menu, i want to be ontop of things, instead of having the hdtv on top of me! Please help me out here. Do you think any of those settings will help fix some of this barrel distortion (That I think I have??.) Please help me.....


----------



## Cleanupthat

FOR A DIGITAL CAMERA Here is how to fix barrel distortion and pincusion (Link at bottom). I just need this kind of fix for my tv!!!!!! Is it possible.

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/imag...rection_01.htm


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there a setting in the service menu to adjust barrel distortion?



Dude, please read the documents on geometry from poat #783, above.


----------



## Cleanupthat

I would just like to add that although my tv seems to suffer from barrel distortion, i am not totally sure that, that is my only problem. I might just have barrel distortion, but it also appears i might have some pincusion problem too, and other problems with the geometry (like i stated earlier). I dont know, i am very confused here. Would it help if i take a pic of my tv and post it here? Do you think you would see the problem i am having?


----------



## Cleanupthat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dude, please read the documents on geometry from poat #783, above.



I have read that post left and right, up and down. I have been in the service menu and tried to adjust almost all those settings, while looking at material on my xbox 360. (i dont have a usb thumb drive, no dvi to hdmi converter, no calibration discs, no hd channels until wednesday) I just have what i have (for now.) I would just like to know what setting in the document or sevice menu would most likely solve my problem with barrel distortion/ and or pincusion. (the problem i am having looks exactly like the one from the link.)

I dont know AHH, i guess i will continue to mess around with the service menu!! You know, it is very scary in there, for me. I mean what if i touch key 7 by accident?? Then my whole tv could just die!! I am just looking for some tips from preferably you since you seem like a tech savy guy who knows his way around this thing. I am just looking for some advice before i go back into the service menu with zero calibration discs.


Maybe i am asking to much. I would just like some help. I am a person who has never knew any of these tv terms before. I am a person who never knew tvs had service menu to adjust all of these things. Please help me..... Thanks....


----------



## alchaemy

Think ive gotten myself into a dill of a pickle, i did the 7 jump enter combo to reset, and it didnt seem to do anything except, now i have the same video coming oiut of two component inputs. lol any suggestions?


----------



## Nitewatchman

First off, am more active in other threads in HDTV areas and unfortunetly don't have a lot of extra time to contribute to this one, but I have been utilizing it extensively for the past 7 months. Wanted to say thanks much to everyone for all the excellent info, as well as contribute a couple of hopefully helpful items while I have some time for it on a sat afternoon. AVS has seen a lot of great threads I've seen over the years, but I've got to rate this one near the top.


First a few thoughts on Ken's new image processing settings/posts, then a couple of XBR960 specific things relevant to MID5 columns and the relevant 2103-1/2103-2 settings ...


Having used them for almost a week now, I really like it! I am obsessing a little over SYSM=2 or 3, though, probably mostly just because I've been using 3 for everything for so long. As it turns out I do really like the unsharp-mask like effect, and I also think more of a photo-realistic look with it at 2 - given the other new P2170-3 and MID5 Column's I've set up/settings at least. Haven't had a lot of time with the new settings actually watching a lot of content however.


At first, had one of the pic modes still set up so I could compare the "old" settings to the new(well, except for the 3dcomb/2101-1 settings when applicable and checked those out a little bit when making the changes as well), and so far haven't seen anywhere I would want to keep my "old" settings. In fact, I've already seen enough that I have already since changed that one to the new settings as well, but currently pointing to a MID5 column with all 0's currently as I usually use it for experimenting, anyway. I have also left "pro" 2170p3 settings at set default for reference, BTW, except for the VM settings, 2170p3 #2~5. I did have things pretty much set up per Ken Tech's Sept. 05 updates to his image processing article/posts and/PDF, except that I found I had to do a little "more"(actually a lot more) for my particular DVD player with 480p DVD via component, via a different MID5 Column I sest up for it. Strangely enough, I'm not getting that now, and am using the same MID5 column I'm using for 720p.


Would also like to note that I agree with Ken concerning the SVM settings, and I'm using his VM settings at either "low or Medium" for just about everything - I like it anyway. I used to have the RCA 38"(F38310 - XBR960 is actually a warranty replacement for that set) and allways thought they did a great job implementing SVM on it, which I think was very much along the lines(but maybe a tad bit more/not much) of the same thing I get with the XBR and "medium" or Low with Ken's settings. Wish I could figure out how to do much the same on a couple of other CRT HD displays I have(Toshiba 34HF84 and Samsung TXN2668WHF), but doesn't look like it's going to work out, so SVM is off on those.


Also, might be interesting to note that with the new settings, I have sharpness slider at "30" for everything except from My DVD Player, and a JVC S-VHS VCR, for which I use sharpness "31". Seems that, with my eyes at least, that's right where it "needs" to be.


XBR960 specific notes concerning image processing settings :


#1). XBR960 and factory MID5 Columns -- - On my XBR(manufactured Jan 05 at the PA plant), and according to the XBR960 service codes PDF :


A). For the set defaults, MID5 Columns #53~#56 are actually assigned to P2170-3 MIDE#16. -- It's really silly I think, as for instance, Columns #53~63 are all zeros at the factory defaults, however, #53~56 are assigned for MIDE for the different Pic modes for Twin-view feature ... #53=Pro, #54=Movie,etc. So, just something for XBR owners to keep in mind when deciding which MID5 column's to take over. Right now, what I'm doing is I have MID#5 POP#60~63 still set up with values I had been using or experimenting with previously, and Column #57~59 with a few of the suggested "columns" from the Ken Tech's new findings. So far, those 3 have been all I have setup with the new settings(and so far appears that those 3 will probably be all I need), but I don't have anything assigned for #54~56 and may use those if necessarly as well. Am using #53 for the "all zeros" column when I want to use it/try it(and still for pro "twin view" left at default) and, can probably use column #60~63 with other values than what I have them at, currently if desired.


B). I don't think anything is actually assigned to Column #28~52 either, according to the PDF at least. But I haven't checked inputs/pic modes and 2170P3 MIDE#16 value for inputs I'm not using to see. Also, according to the XBR960 service codes PDF file, except for #50, those Columns aren't all zeros, so I probably wouldn't want to change those, anyway.


2). 2103-2 #6-SHAP, #7-SHFO, #8-PREO, #16-SSMD : In addition to the changes for 2103-1 #6SHAP,#7-SHFO,#8-PREO,and #16-SSMD as mentioned by Ken for the various appicable inputs -- XBR960 owners might also want set 2103-2 #6-SHAP,#7-SHFO,#8-PREO and #16-SSMD to the suggested values for the 2103-1 "versions" as well. These 2103-2 values seem to be solely for such features as "twin-view" and Index .. although, (and here's one place where it gets odd), on my set at least, the "input" specific nature of these settings don't seem to be quite exactly as lableled the in the 960 servvice codes PDF. From what I could tell they aren't using a lookup table/etc, so don't know why some of the default values+such are labeled in red lettering in the PDF.


I did confirm by visably inspecting the results that modifying values for 2103-2 #6,#7,#8 and #16 did affect "twin-view", but no other input or "feature" that I checked at first -- However, although this is probably going to sound odd -- I didn't spend a lot of time on these, so can't specifically tell you exactly WHAT all inputs/features you need to go through and modify these values for if you want to set these to new values -- I *think* I set the new values for P2103-2 #6+#7+#8 while in "Twin-View" and "RF"(using analog OTA with it specifically) -- On the RF part of it, don't ask me why since the values used for "RF" input(but not for index) are actually set in 2103-1 #6#7#8 and #16 as Ken wrote up, so would have thought I'd have had to select "index" to set them in 2103-2 for "index", but that didn't turn out to be the case .. What I did really was just go ahead and cycle through all inputs/scan rates I'm using and twin-view+Index and make sure the new settings for 2103-2 stuck everywhere(they did), even though, it seems its actually only "twin-view" and "index" features which are effected by these in 2103-2.


Hope that makes some sense, should become more apparent what I'm talking about when/if you go to change those settings - Perhaps, just setting them to the new values while you are using both "twin-view" and "index" would do the trick - that would seem to make sense, but of course I didn't quite do it that way. Since the PDF file doesn't seem to label the "inputs" correctly, you'll probably want to write down the default values and "where" you actually changed them rather than expect to be able to rely on the PDF file.


Wow, what a bunch of writing just about setting SHAP/SHFO/PREO/SSMD "index feature" and for "twin-view" ... Not that you may feel it actually necessary to change those for index+twin view features(and I certianly didn't spend much time on it), but in case you do, there it is .... I do think this thing has WAY too many settings at times ... Yikes, why couldn't it just use the 2101-1 values for these. Sure would be nice to be able to do this with a PC "hooked up" to the set rather than using the remote .... Only had the set about 7 months, and the labels on the 1, 2 and 3 buttons are already ALL the way gone. Went through that first set of batteries for it awfully quick as well ....


----------



## Nitewatchman

Sorry for the adjacent double posts, thought It made sense to do these seperately. Also - apologize for the length of these, unfortnetely I've never been all that good about writing clear and consise+short posts.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually it looks like we're both slightly off and that these controls effect 480p/1080i, but not 480i. FWIW, I did a few tests to see which inputs and signals are effected by these controls on my 34XBR800 and this was the result.
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> INPUT      SIGNAL    MTRX  CBGN  CRGN  YGN
> 
> Composite  480i      No    No    No    No
> Component  480i      No    No    No    No
> Component  480p      Yes   Yes   Yes   Yes
> DVI        480p      Yes   Yes   Yes   Yes
> DVI        1080i     Yes   Yes   Yes   Yes
> 
> So it appears that these may change the color space (MTRX) and offset decoding (CBGN, CRGN, YGN) for ATSC/HD (480p/720p/1080i) versus NTSC/SD (480i).
> 
> 
> I can't be sure about 720p since I don't have any 720p signals handy, and it also has to be "upconverted" for display like 480i. And my 34XBR800 has a slightly older version of this chip (CXA2151, rather than CXA2171), which could work a little differently. But based on the above it looks like these are probably ATSC/HD-based controls. Maybe someone else could try 720p to confirm this. (Pls recall the earlier caveat re writing down the original value for MTRX before changing it, since this control is automatically saved w/o being written to memory. 0-Enter won't work on MTRX either.)




Well, that may explain a lot. Thanks for digging this up, as it may turn out to be very beneifical for me.


More detail later, but It appears color decoding differs a bit on my set for 480p+1080i component sources and I'm pretty sure from 1080i via the internal ATSC receiver as well, this must be why. I think I've noticed this in a couple of different ways, now I know where to look to see if I can do anything about it.


I'm not sure about 720p yet, from what I've seen I'd bet either that #1). it doesn't, or #2). If it does effect 720p, then seems like something a little "different" is going on, perhaps elsewhere concerning 720p vs. 1080i sources from the internal ATSC receiver. More on this in #2 below.


Here's the 2 places where I think I've noticed this.


#1). Using AVIA/DVE Color test bars/decoder test and turning on RGB guns indiviudually, I get pretty much spt on results(AVIA color decoder test shows RGB all in the 0~+5% range, nothing above about +3% as far as I can tell, and the highest, slight bit of oversaturation would be blue - does help me to see what's going on with that if I take off my glasses!) with 480i DVD with Hue at 0, Color=31, and 2170P-4 RYR~GYB at :


13-15-5-3


However -- That doesn't work for 480p DVD. I need values of Color=34, Hue=0, and RYR~GYB = 14-14-6-3, there to get the closest results(but can't get "as close" as with 480i) using DVE or AVIA. At first, I wondered if something weird was up with the DVD player. But, I'd also used this same Zenith DVD player with DVE/AVIA to calibrate color decoder on my Toshiba 34HF84, and I noted that for instance with it, I needed the SAME exact settings for either 480p or 480i from that player with it. For that matter, the a cheap JVC 480i only DVD player needed the same settings as the Zenith. Must not be anything "wrong" with the DVD players color output, I thought. Note that 34HF84 has scan rate and in some cases SD "signal type"(s-video or composite) specific settings available for all of it's various color decoder settings it has such as G-Y or R-Y.



#2). Ok, here's the kicker concerning how I noticed something seemed a little different about color decoding at 480p and 1080i than anywhere else, and that what was going on with 480p is probably the same thing that's happening with 1080i. Might sound like I'm going off on a tangent here, but first, I have to explain something about what I did that has nothing to do with color decoding.


Having had "grey bars" for 4x3 SD signals up on the other DV-CRT HD displays I've had - It might seem very odd, but I have gotten so used to it I've even come to prefer it, and also, although I'm not really worried about it also believe having those there may help a bit with uneven phosphor wear, if one watches much 4x3 content with 4x3 aspect ratio on a 16x9 CRT.


So, I found out how to "put in" the grey bars on the XBR960(for "normal" mode, it only works with 4x3 480i/p AND *for a grey, instead of black background for "twin view" windows) by changing MID1 #24 - BCOL to 6 from it's default(black). For anyone crazy as me who likes "grey bars" Note that BCOL ranges from 0~15, with 0 being black, and 15 being white, so you can pretty much have the "shade" of grey you like. Note that also, when I adjusted this, I noticed what was "labeled" Others or "normal" in the service codes PDF didn't necessarily seemed to "jive" with "where" I had to adjust the BCOL value to where I wanted it and have it stick. And, oddly enough, I ended up having to adjust BCOL when I was using "full" screen mode to actually get it to stick for "normal" go figure - even though it doesn't even effect "full mode" in any way, shape or form. One of those things where it's probably best to cycle through Normal/full/widezoom/etc, as well as "twin view" to make sure your new value sticks everywhere it is supposed to. For my set I also set it to "6" for "twin view" as I found I preferred a grey background there as well(I know, I know I'm crazy), but, for example, one could set it for "normal" for grey sidebars, and leave "twin view" background at Black if they so desire.


I noticed RIGHT away, that when cycling through inputs in Twin view, that when I selected something that was a 1080i signal(via ATSC internal receiver/OTA is currently my only source for 1080i or 720P sources) OR 480p signal, my new "grey" background turned a slightly different color than I got from anything else - 480i via s-video or composite or component OR ATSC internal tuner, 720p via internal tuner/etc/etc. the grey background stays exactly the same, but For 480p or 1080i, the HUE for it turns slightly "pinkish", the exact same shade of "slight pinkishness" to the grey, in fact. At first, even though I'd went through and checked it/modified if necessary the 2170P-1 "CBOF"/CROF" settings for all inputs thought I might have something going on there, but that just didn't seem to be the case.


Now, while I'm not positive about this, I *think* and am somewhat certian when you are using "twin view", SM settings/values specific to the input/scan rate/etc. are used for the signal you are displaying+is active/you have selected(or might just be for the left window -- can't get to the set and check it currently). If so, and given what I'm getting with AVIA/DVE at 480p, then it looks like perhaps I need a little different settings than the factory defaults for the relevant CXA2171 settings.


Also think If I recall correctly from previous info -- it's using component video "inside the set", in this case it's likely the MTRX/CBGN/CRGN+YGN values would probably effect 480p/1080i signals fromthe internal ATSC/QAM as well.


I haven't tried looking at the Color bars for 1080i/p in the internal QM test patterns with this yet, but that's something else on my list the next time I can get a chance to get the set away from the rest of the family, or more specifically, the family away from the set for a long enough period of time I can have another "SM session" with it ...


Also, don't know about Memory stick(1080i), on this can't look at that one via Twin view, I don't think.



-------------------------------------


So what I am thinking(hoping anyway) is : Given what I'm seeing with the Hue of the "grey background" on Twin-view for 480p+1080i being exactly the same, yet slightly different for everything else : Perhaps If I can manage to get color "right" with 480p DVD using the same values I'm using for Hue/Color sliders and RYR-GYB for 480i DVD, BY adjusting the CXA2171 MTRX CBGN CRGN YGN values for 480p and AVIA/DVE Color bars/color decoder tests, then hopefully, I can somewhat expect that 1080i should be "correct" as well ?


Keep thinking about "ATSC color space" though, and wondering if it's really going to work out that way, given 480p NTSC from DVD vs. 1080i from ATSC, or if I'll have anyway of knowing for sure without a HD test pattern generator ..... wouldn't the internal QM color bars at 1080i work to check it as well, or is 2171 chip bypassed - Think I'd read it had been detirmined it wasn't but allways got ask these sorts of questions about this sort of thing, hey that's part of the fun of it







....


Am I sort of thinking along the right lines on this/anyone have any thoughts or suggestions about it?


I do notice that the service codes PDF file for the XBR960 shows both 1080i+720p component or ATSC under the same heading for "MTRX", which if previous experience with some other settings have been any clue may not mean much, especially as I notice there's a "others" column there as well ... certianly don't want to "mess up" 720p, though, and hope this isn't going to work out where you can have either 720p or 1080i "just right" but not both .... Will have to experiment a bit with this when I get a chance and see what happens, and to see if I get the same results as you did concerning 480p/1080i, which I'm expecting to be the case, but if I can I'll check it just to make sure -- Have no way to check DVI/HDMI at present, as well as 480p from the ATSC tuner, as I have no stations in the area sending 480p, currently.


----------



## Cleanupthat

Ok, i jumped into the service menu, testing different settings. I found out it seems my horizontal size and position is badly off. My vertical size and position is badly off too. (I think) I need to know how to test these settings to what they are supposed to be set at for perfect calibration. Ahhhh, i dont have any way of getting calibration discs, Can i purcase a usb thumbdrive and copy things from the internet to my 360? What would you recommend i do to get perfect (well maybe not too perfect) vertical and horizontal size and position.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cleanupthat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need to know how to test these settings to what they are supposed to be set at for perfect calibration. Ahhhh, i dont have any way of getting calibration discs, Can i purcase a usb thumbdrive and copy things from the internet to my 360? What would you recommend i do to get perfect (well maybe not too perfect) vertical and horizontal size and position.



Read this post post, and the other posts highlighted within... as well as retrieving the OVERSCAN.ZIP 1920x1080 test pattern attached to one of those other posts. If you can display the cross-hatch JPG that's in that zip file from your 360 to your XBR960 at 1080i, you should be on your way.


----------



## ikrups

I bought a new 30XS955 recentely, it works okay and there is a picture szie problem.

I tested with a HIVI CAST DVD and I only have 90% picture of the patten (safty zone), for example, if we take a 1920 x 1080 picture and put it on TV then I only see 1700 x 960 something on screen.

Can this be adjusted to have more or even 98% of the picture?


thanks a lot.


----------



## Jediphish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ikrups* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I bought a new 30XS955 recentely, it works okay and there is a picture szie problem.
> 
> I tested with a HIVI CAST DVD and I only have 90% picture of the patten (safty zone), for example, if we take a 1920 x 1080 picture and put it on TV then I only see 1700 x 960 something on screen.
> 
> Can this be adjusted to have more or even 98% of the picture?
> 
> 
> thanks a lot.




Easily correctable. See post #783 above for one of the posted Serv. Manual excerpts re: geometry adjustment. Right click and open in new window to view the file. Other posts will tell you how to get into the service menu (post #1! for instance).


Also, as you'll read in other posts (on this page, I believe), you can (and should) use the "Search This Thread" function (at the top of the thread), to search for posts discussing "overscan," which is what you're trying to adjust. Just be sure to read several posts before and after any that you zero in on, to be sure that there aren't any important dissenting opinions on what is stated. Sometimes people get stuff wrong and they usually get corrected a few posts later.


Good luck with your Service Menu changes.


----------



## Jediphish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK - Using DVE's Overscan and Crosshatch patterns ouput from my DVD player at 480i to Vid5, I successfully centered my raster (using 2170P1 & 2, and then correctly centered and adjusted the image using MID2 0-3. When I watch a DVD everything is great. When I watch my D* HR10-250 for an SD channel output at 480i, everything is great (the grey side panels are perfectly parallel and straight up & down). (I'm at 2.5% overscan by the way for 480i).
> 
> 
> But when I switch the output on my HR10-250 to 1080i, I notice that the gray side bars on SD material are narrower (closer to the edge of the bezel). I think this means that I need to adjust the 1080i image using MID3, however I've had mixed results trying to do this. Since my DVD player only outputs DVE images at 480i, I can't use DVE to adjust the 1080i image or overscan. So, I tried using the PATN crosshatch pattern and a 1080i signal from my D*box, and the MID3 table adjustments. *The weird thing is the "original" values that were set for MID3 0-3 (VDHP - VDVS) were different when I checked them after turning on the PATN 1 crosshatch, than the values that were there when I just check MID3 while watching a 1080i output from my HR10-250 (without the PATN crosshatch engaged).
> 
> 
> Does anyone know why the values for MID3 for 1080i/V5/V6 would be different with PATN crosshatch turned on than when it is not turned on?*
> 
> 
> 
> On a related issue - as I was saying, I got my geometry and overscan set perfectly for 480i V5/V6 using DVE. But now when I output SD source material at 480i, everything looks great, but the same material output/upconverted at 1080i "bows" out (as if PIN and MPIN need to be adjusted). I was under the impression that PIN and MPIN are global settings. Why would they be perfect for 480i and off at 1080i?
> 
> 
> Last - are the first four values for MID3 completely equivalent (as far as what they control) as the first four values of MID2 - the acronyms are not the same, nor does there appear to be a Vertical Position value for MID3 (It's labeled Envelope instead).
> 
> 
> Thanks as always.




I've balanced out PIN and MPIN so that the outwards pincushion bow on 1080i and the inwards pincushion bow on 480i (both for V5/V6) are about the same, respectively. But if I set either one to be straight, the other is concave or convex. Is this just something I'll have to live with?


Also - if anyone wants to be a friend and do me a favor, could you check your 1080i/V5/V6 MID3 values #s 0-3 with PATN crosshatch pattern engaged and see if the values are diffferent than without the PATN crosshatch engaged? Thanks!


----------



## ikrups




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Easily correctable. See post #783 above for one of the posted Serv. Manual excerpts re: geometry adjustment. Right click and open in new window to view the file. Other posts will tell you how to get into the service menu (post #1! for instance).
> 
> 
> Also, as you'll read in other posts (on this page, I believe), you can (and should) use the "Search This Thread" function (at the top of the thread), to search for posts discussing "overscan," which is what you're trying to adjust. Just be sure to read several posts before and after any that you zero in on, to be sure that there aren't any important dissenting opinions on what is stated. Sometimes people get stuff wrong and they usually get corrected a few posts later.
> 
> 
> Good luck with your Service Menu changes.



Thank you Jediphish , I'm going to print all this thread and work on it.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe someone else could try 720p to confirm this. (Pls recall the earlier caveat re writing down the original value for MTRX before changing it, since this control is automatically saved w/o being written to memory. 0-Enter won't work on MTRX either.)



Ok, had a chance to have a "session" with the set last night -- Update to my last post :


Checked 720p from a broadcast ATSC source, and 720p QM Color bars, and discovered that on XBR960 at leaast CXA2171 MTRX, CBGN, CRGN+YGN affect 720p ATSC as well.


So they effect 1080i ATSC, 720p ATSC, 480p ATSC(according to internal QM Color bars) and 480p NTSC(such as from a DVD player via component). I have no way to check 480p from internal tuner, but expect that would be effected as well.


Default values for my set/some notes :


MTRX = 0 - It's default was 0 for internal ATSC tuner 1080i/720p, 0 using 1080i/720p,480p, 0 for memory stick/1080i, 0 for a 480p signal from DVD hooked up to component 5. Didn't change from Zero no matter where I "went" in fact. I don't know about HDMI as I'm not using it.


CBGN = 4

CRGN = 5

YGN = 5


On my set at least, only one value appears capable of being stored for all of those. Including whether or not the signal is ATSC or NTSC for 480p - one value HAS to be used for either. Although Note that the XBR960 servicecodes PDF lists the default for MTRX V5/V6/ATSC/1080i/720p As "1", HDMI as "1" and "others" as 0. I wonder what "others" is, I certianly can't find it ...


Just in case, note that I tried changing the values to see if I could get any "different" values for 480p or 1080i or 720p/etc. to "stick" but it wouldn't work. Only 1 value was allowed.


The following is with RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3/Color=31/Hue=0, and using RGBS to turn on the RGB guns indivdually -- Which is right on the money(more or less) for 480i via component, with DVE or AVIA, as well as as far as I could tell, with QM test pattern Color bars :


I noticed, with the default values for MTRX/CBGN/CRGN/YGN, using either 1). 480p from DVD and AVIA Color tests, and/OR 2.) the internal QM color bars for 480p/720p/1080i that 480p was "closest" of 3 three scan rates to having the correct Color balance. For instance, With the internal QM color bars for 480p/720p/1080i, It was easily obvious that using "green" that all the bars that showed up were extremely close to matching each other perfectly with 480p, but this was NOT the case for 720p or 1080i. It was very also apparent that the internal QM color bars for 720p/1080i were showing the same thing - at least with my capability to compare them, since I can't have both on screen at same time. Red seemed a little closer to being similar between 480p + 720p/1080i, and seemed closer to being correctly balanced for all 3(but off enough to be noticable even with the QM Color bar patterns).


Noticed that, for BOTH 720p and 1080i, changing "MTRX" value to "1" made the "green" test perfectly balanced(as much as I could tell anyway) with the QM internal color bars for BOTH 720p+1080i, but Red, although perhaps "closer" was still noticably off a bit. HOWEVER, changing MTRX to "1" then messes up the "green" test quite significantly for 480p - either with Avia, or the internal QM test bars - Not as much difference using Red, but there was a difference for the worse there as well.


With MTRX at 0,(default) Changing CBGN to 6, CRGN to 6 and YGN=5 worked very well for 480p Color according to AVIA tests, if anything, May have improved things slightly for 720p/1080i as well.


For now, I left MTRX at default(0) and set CBGN/CRGN=6, YGN=5 for best results with 480p and set up a 2nd set of RYR~GYB values for 720p/1080i so I can select it from the User menu Color Axis setting(default or Monitor) via adjusting those the best I could using the 720p/1080i test patterns+RGBS. I came up with 13-13-12-8 for RYR~GYB for 720p/1080i internal QM test patterns, and have that one set for the "monitor" setting currently, ad 13-15-5-3 for 480i/p set for "default". Do note that you can only work with the "default" setting when using the internal QM color bars, I tried setting it to "monitor" before I went to QM, but it wouldn't "stick". Which does make me wonder if there are any SM values the QM color bars "ignores" that also may be important here.


What I really need is to catch a local broadcast station that's sending 1080i or 720p to put up color bars and check and see what really happens with the internal ATSC tuner -- BUT, I did luck out a little bit last night and PBS HD had up a program with scenes with all different varities of Greens(Trees/Grasses/etc) and, seemed like my new "monitor" color axis setting was better, and "green" push/less natural looking greens/fewer shades of green in fact. seemed evident using "default".


That's really not very ideal way to do it though, since I use 720p/1080i and 480i ATSC, as well NTSC signals via the internal tuner and would have to manually switch between "default" and "normal" color axis everytime I "switch channels" more or less ... depending on how things go, either using the QM test patterns, or even better if I catch color bars up from a 720p/1080i broadcast source, probably better to change "MTRX to 1, and adjust CBGN/CRGN/YGN accordingly for best results for 720p/1080i, and set up a different "Color axis" for 480p(if it "works" that is), which all I'm using it currently is for DVD. Just would have to remember to change "Color axis" setting for my DVD input depending upon whether I'm sending 480i, or 480p from the player ...


So,what's going on here? Am I missing something? Seems that Unless the internal QM test patterns aren't showing me something "accurate", and/or unless there are "specific" 480p vs 720p/1080i color decoder settings elsewhere I'm not aware of, it doesn't appear that, for instance -- using the same values for RYR~GYB that I can get accurate color decoding for all three scan rates ...


If I could set "MTRX" to 1 for 1080i/720p, and to "O" for 480p and adjust CBGN/CRGN/YGN seperately for 480p+ 1080i/720p I'd probably be able to at least get it pretty close without needing different values for RYR~GYB, but that doesn't seem possible, at least on my set.


Funny that I was just complaining earlier about having to many SM settings to play with, now it seems I'm asking for MORE of them ....


By the way, the slight hue shift I'm seeing in my "twin view" grey background for ONLY 480p+1080i sources as compared to everything else - including 720p(as explained in last post) isn't effected by any of this, so something else is going on there. My Twin view grey background is the only place it seems to be an issue, don't notice anything like that anywhere else. Maybe should go back and take a look at 2170P1 #2~6 (YOF/CBOF/CROF/etc) again when I get a chance.


Any thoughts/comments/corrections are appreciated, thanks.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok, had a chance to have a "session" with the set last night -- Update to my last post :



I, for one, am grateful that you are posting in such detail, although, you're right, it's fairly hard to read. But I am paying attention. I want to comment, as I can, having a 36XS955 without TwinView, etc. I am concerned about the digital colorspace vs NTSC, but I don't want to obsess too much. I will read and respond as I can, thanks. It should be clear from my last several posts that my current obsession is getting the *image* right -- meaning that I want (a) to have some settings that *reproduce accurately* what is on a DVD, good or bad, and then (b) to understand what to tweak to "fix" things I find ugly, if possible. Without knowing what the set is doing, however, one gets lost. My use of the previously posted PDF chart in #707 has helped, and the settings published are oriented toward the goal of *neutrality* in rendering image detail.


A couple of short comments:


(1) I recommend that you make some color comparisons between sources with true b/w material, not easy to come by for HD broadcast, for example: One has to have some faith that a film segment in b/w on PBS, for example, is actually color-free, without the greenish tinge that sometimes affects such segments (that disappears when you tuen down Color).


The reason to do this is to perfect the color-offset balance among the inputs, using 2170P-1: CBOF and CROF. That was never correct on my set, especially for HD, and I have fixed it nicely over time. Comparing a true b/w source with the user Color control at minimum vs maximum should yield the *same* screen color.


When I got the set, I noticed that HD broadcasts had yellow-greenish shadows fairly consistently. The columns for YOF thru CROF for MS/ATSC 720p and 1080i were originally 10-45-47 and 10-44-47, respectively. Now they are both 7-55-55, and I seem to have nothing to complain about when b/w is broadcast on HD (PBS, some commercials).


(2) One has to be careful if using an upconverting DVD player to make colorspace adjustments. *If* the player outputs 1080i and 720p with the correct colorspace for that video standard, you're fine. But, as reviewers have noted, some players don't, simply using the NTSC default. I think my Panasonic S97 does do it correctly. Further, I guess one has to assume some things about the internal pattern generators, which are all-digital. But what? That the HD patterns are HD colorspace and the SD are not? I can't say.


Even if I have a few mismatches, I am loathe to obsess over them. It's DVD playback I want to get right, since color on well-mastered DVDs has been tweaked to near-perfection. Braodcast, even HD, may not be accurate, and I am thrilled with the near-photographic rendition of the material. I guess I am willing to forgive a few color-matrix faults; but, like you, I ultimately would like to understand them and get them right.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I, for one, am grateful that you are posting in such detail, although, you're right, it's fairly hard to read.



First Ken, thanks much for the response and your thoughts on this.


Lack of sleep lately certianly didn't help the "clarity" of my previous two posts on this thread, sorry about that.


In additon, I have found it is difficult for me to post about some of these issues and use more precise and consise language at times. Sorry, I'm doing the best I can to not only be complete and accurate, but also make it "understandable", I will continue to strive to improve in this regard, especially where the latter is concerned.


AS just one other example of this, I think you'll find you referred to "SSMD" in a paragraph where you were referring solely to "3dcomb" settings in a post on a previous page concerning image processing settings, without mentioning SSMD is 2103-1 setting. I was able to figure out what you meant, but I'm not sure everyone will be, as I don't think you mentioned anything about SSMD elsewhere. BTW, Default was "0" for all inputs for SSMD on my set(any input/scan rate), not 3, so it was a relevant thing for me, at least to some degree.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It should be clear from my last several posts that my current obsession is getting the *image* right -- meaning that I want (a) to have some settings that *reproduce accurately* what is on a DVD, good or bad, and then (b) to understand what to tweak to "fix" things I find ugly, if possible. Without knowing what the set is doing, however, one gets lost. My use of the previously posted PDF chart in #707 has helped, and the settings published are oriented toward the goal of *neutrality* in rendering image detail.



I can't say enough concerning my appreciation for your work in this area. As I said in a previous post, I'm using the image processing settings you've found+posted recently, and previously was also using what you had found(for the most part) in your previous posts on this. In fact, I have been reading/following the posts on this thread closely and "tweaking" my set for over 7 months.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (1) I recommend that you make some color comparisons between sources with true b/w material, not easy to come by for HD broadcast, for example: One has to have some faith that a film segment in b/w on PBS, for example, is actually color-free, without the greenish tinge that sometimes affects such segments (that disappears when you tuen down Color).
> 
> 
> The reason to do this is to perfect the color-offset balance among the inputs, using 2170P-1: CBOF and CROF. That was never correct on my set, especially for HD, and I have fixed it nicely over time. Comparing a true b/w source with the user Color control at minimum vs maximum should yield the *same* screen color.
> 
> 
> When I got the set, I noticed that HD broadcasts had yellow-greenish shadows fairly consistently. The columns for YOF thru CROF for MS/ATSC 720p and 1080i were originally 10-45-47 and 10-44-47, respectively. Now they are both 7-55-55, and I seem to have nothing to complain about when b/w is broadcast on HD (PBS, some commercials).



Yes, I've read and looked at your previous posts and what values you're using for these and as I said, plan to revisit this again to make sure I wasn't just "seeing things".


[updated/corrected/added info following paragraph]


In the past have checked it when looking at "B&W" with Color slider at "31" or higher and "0"(latter for greyscale) and checking CBOF/CROF adjustments. Also checked various inputs/scan rates as much as possible concerning CBOF/CROF. Not seeing any "problems" I didn't spend a lot of time on it, however. Luckily, at the time I was looking into it I ran into a PBS documentary containing much WWII B&W footage that didn't seem to have that added "greenish"/etc. tint to it. Also, luckily, one of my local PBS HD affiliates transcodes PBS HD from 1080i to 720p for broadcast, the other 3 PBS HD stations I receive sends 1080i. At that time, they were running the same programming at the same time, now the one sending 720p time shifts PBS HD programming and airs it per their own schedule.


[end update]


Even changed the values in some cases to see the effects, but CBOF/CROF settings from the factory for my set seemed to not need much adjustment. No pinkish or greenish contamination/etc. or visable differences between inputs/scan rates in the "B&W" content that I noticed. But, maybe I didn't look/check this "closely" enough+will try it again.


Which is one reason why I wanted to emphacize the slight hue change to the grey background(ONLY for 480p/1080i) I have set up for "twin view" is the only place I've noticed an issue with it - But because of that, and because I had already "checked" to see if I needed different offsets for CBOF/CROF, this is why wondered if it might have been caused by differences in color decoding for 480p/1080i, which as I noted in my last post doesn't seem to be the case.


I did need to adjust Blue/Green DRV/CUT values slightly from the factory "warm" offset for good greyscale - , as the factory setting was more "greenscale"(via all inputs/scan rates/etc) than "greyscale", but I'm guessing (just guessing and "eyeballing" though) the factory "warm" offset wasn't that far off from 6500K.


So, I haven't noticed any visable differences between "B&W" between different inputs and scan rates, and, in addition to the rare times I've been able to do that with Color at 31(I certianly admit I need to try to do/find suitable content for more of that), I have also spent quite a bit of time looking at greyscale with color at "0" as well.


BTW, I have the factory "warm offset" default set up for "warm" for reference and my new values drv/cut values(I didn't change RDRV/RCUT from factory setting) set up for "neutral" - I had no use whatsoever for the factory "neutral" and "cool" values or anything near them, looked way too cool/too blue to me.


YOF~CROF 10-44-47 are my set defaults for 1080i, they seemed right on, or pretty close. I recall I had tried some of the previous values you were using for your set, but they added visable "pink/red contamination." But, will revisit this again for all inputs/scan rates again per your suggestions, next on my list.


[updated section follows]


Had to dig up my notes on this - And this is where it gets strange -- 720p defaults YOF~CROF on my set are 10-31-31 - quite different than the servicecodes listing and default on your set. 480p defaults 13-44-42, as with 1080i, same as servicecodes listing. P2170-1 CBOP/CROP defaults are 9-36, quite a bit different from servicecodes listing default of 36-37. I have them all at the defaults, currently. Remember puzzling over the significantly different(from service code file) defaults for 720p CBOF/CROF, and CBOP/CROP about 5 months ago and why I wasn't seeing any "problems" from it, but -- looks like I'm going to have to go through it all again ! LOL ....


This probably explains the bit of reddish tint I'm seeing only from *-480p+1080i sources in the Grey Twinview background I set up, I had it as black background at the time I was checking YOF~CROF to see if I needed to change things, so wouldn't have noticed it then.


* - but not 720p, it's exactly the same shade of grey as 480i or NTSC SD from say, the internal tuner, - and not surprisingly, 480i/etc. are CROF/CBOF set at 31-31, same values as in the servicecodes PDF.


One thing it doesn't explain is why I'm not seeing any sort of "contamination" of color while viewing program material, including B&W content via 720p+1080i.


Another thing it doesn't explain is why I get the exact same results(as far as I can "compare" them anyway) with the 1080i+720p Color bars from the internal QM test patterns, unless CROF/CBOF are ignored if you are using one of the test patterns in QM.


I could be wrong, and will investigate it further when I get a chance, however -- Even IF I can find "better" settings for CROF/CBOF for the various inputs/scan rates, I don't think it's going to change this color decoding "difference" between 480p and 720p/1080i to much of a degree - the difference isn't there(according to the QM test pattern color bars) between 1080i and 720p, just between 480p and 720p, and 480p and 1080i.


[end update]



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (2) One has to be careful if using an upconverting DVD player to make colorspace adjustments. *If* the player outputs 1080i and 720p with the correct colorspace for that video standard, you're fine.



Don't have one of those yet to experience problems with .


What I did to calibrate decoder on another set(Toshiba 34HF84) and for 1080i/720p and the particular device I'm using was to use Color bars put up by broadcast station with the output of my ATSC receiver/STB I have hooked up to it(Zenith HDV420).


I have also had the chance to check those against color bars from a different station/completely different source nothing needed adjustment/changed. But luckily, the Toshiba decoder's "roughly equivilent to RYR~GYR and "MTRX" settings"/etc. are SCAN RATE specific, and adjustable individually for 1080i, 720p/480p. Can't adjust those differently/get it just right for both both 480p NTSC output from DVD and 480p from The ATSC receiver, however - strangely enough, the "manual" that came with this ATSC receiver says it outputs "NTSC standard", maybe they're just talking about the composite/s-video outputs.


Again, should also note that as I mentioned earlier I used the same DVD player to calibrate color decoder in the toshiba for 480i/p, and unlike is the case with the XBR, were no differences in decoder settings(or tint/hue offsets/etc) required for 480i vs 480p.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Even if I have a few mismatches, I am loathe to obsess over them.



It's not that I'm all that much "worried" about it either, -- not like this is all that "BIG" and a glaring "mismatch either", although some might thing so ---


Thing is though, I've been able to, for example adjust another set I have for I think, excellent color accuracy in this regard, and given that I do find accurate color reproduction for HD broadcast sources(even though as you say it "varies" greatly, even from the source) important, the difference does show to me - especially, as it turns out in my case currently -- where greens are concerned, such as the field at Mile-high stadium(or whatever they are calling it) via CBS HD currently, or all those greens of the "forest" from a PBS HD channel documentary that was running last night ....



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I guess I am willing to forgive a few color-matrix faults; but, like you, I ultimately would like to understand them and get them right.



Agree 100%.


----------



## Costas

The links for the pdf files don't work, is there another source for these?


----------



## Nitewatchman

Costas,


If it helps any, I've never had any problem with those. What I usually do (with IE 6) is right click and chose "save target as", then view them off my hard drive after I've downloaded it.


----------



## Q of BanditZ

Wow! Nitewatchman AND KenTech in the same thread! This is a dream team, folks!


----------



## Costas

Nitewatchman,

Thanks for the tip, I got the pdf's. Now the endless tweaking will commence....


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A). For the set defaults, MID5 Columns #53~#56 are actually assigned to P2170-3 MIDE#16. -- It's really silly I think, as for instance, Columns #53~63 are all zeros at the factory defaults, however, #53~56 are assigned for MIDE for the different Pic modes for Twin-view feature ... #53=Pro, #54=Movie,etc. So, just something for XBR owners to keep in mind when deciding which MID5 column's to take over.



I want to understand what you are saying here. I don't get the reference to #16.


Further, you are right about Twin View MIDE pointing to MID5 #53-56. You can solve that issue easily: Defaults for MID5 cols 53-56 are all zeroes. I have designated col 63 permanently as all zeroes. So . . . simply set 2170P-3/MIDE for all Twin View picture modes to MIDE=63, and you have the exact equivalent setting -- all zeroes. Now cols 53-56 are available for other things.


There is a great deal of redundancy redundancy in the MID5 assignments.  A little consolidation opens up columns you can assign toy our own uses. Turns out I didn't think about this, as my set doesn't have the Twin View feature. Good that you brought that up, thanks!


----------



## ADU

JeffD2.


2170D-3/JUMP should be the parameter you're lookin for to expand HD to fill the screen on the 36HS510. If you need to tweak vertical sizing and/or position on the expanded HD, some folks use the MID controls. I found the various sensitivities and relationships in those controls rather complicated and easy to screw up though, so I've been using 2170D-1/ASPT for vertical size and 2170D-1/SCRL for vertical position instead. I don't really know which is preferable. 2170D-1/ASPT and SCRL are signal and aspect-ratio sensitive on my TV (which is actually 16:9 rather than 4:3), so they can store separate values for these different sensitivities. Hopefully there's some more info about these and other possible controls in one of the various spreadsheets, so you won't be flyin totally blind. If you use ASPT and SCRL jot down the original values before changing them (including also the signal and aspect ratio), so you can put them back if you need to, because there appears to be no easy way to automatically reset the data back to the TV's original OOTB condition w/o removing crucial factory tweaks. DO NOT mess with the NVM resets! And safe SM-ing.


----------



## ADU

Nitewatchman,


Tks for confirming that 720p is also effected by the CXA2171 controls. I'm still readin your and Ken's posts, tryin to digest it all, and will try to post back with a few thoughts soon.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I want to understand what you are saying here. I don't get the reference to #16.



In the section from my post you quoted, I meant 2170P3 #16 MIDE, where the MID5 columns are "assigned" - I.e. Where Twin View MIDE "pro" picture mode is "pointing to" MID5 Column #53 (all zeros). But thought that was clear? If it wasn't, this probably isn't going to help any, either - Sorry.


But, maybe, instead however you are reffering to another comment in my post you didn't quote, concerning P2103-1 #16 SSMD, and your comments about it in the last sentence of a paragraph(d) concerning 3dcomb settings in post #707 - I quote that paragraph below, for convienience :



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (d) For all S-video, composite-video, and RF-tuner 480i sources, the 3D comb filter separate color from luminance, and the 3D-COMB section has significant sharpness tweaks, nos. 14 and 15: VAPG and VAPI for vertical anhancement (generally not used, which means zeros); and nos. 17 and 18: YPFT and YPFG. In this case, YPFG can act as either a detail-reducer or enhancer, with no effect at YPFG=8. (Possibly 7; still experimenting.) Note that the 3D-COMB settings have no effect on all high-quality sources, such as HDTV, HDMI, and component inputs. Recommended: Set VAPG and VAPI to zero, YPFT to 3 and YPFG to 8. Make sure #16/SSMD is set to 3.



----------------------------------



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can solve that issue easily: Defaults for MID5 cols 53-56 are all zeroes. I have designated col 63 permanently as all zeroes. So . . . simply set 2170P-3/MIDE for all Twin View picture modes to MIDE=63, and you have the exact equivalent setting -- all zeroes. Now cols 53-56 are available for other things.
> 
> !



Absolutely. I just didn't see any need to add another "all zeros" column. So, I use #53 for my "all zeros" column anywhere I want to use it, and I also have all Twin-View Pic modes set to "point towards" #53. #54~63 are thus available in my case for my own "settings" whatever I want to use them for. Thought I explained that, but perhaps not very well.


For that matter, haven't checked it to make sure, but if the servicecodes listing/PDF is correct, looks like I could use #49-* for my all zeros column(and for twin view) and then free up #53 for other uses as well.


* - Correction to previous post - I had thought the other


----------



## Cleanupthat

WOW,

I am noticing more problems with my hs420 set that i got a week ago. Last night while playing COD2 on my 360, i began to notice a green tint on a black backround when there is a light by the dark backround, when moving. NOTE: I only notice this tint while moving. When you are stationary or not moving there is no green tint. It as if when the black or dark image comes in contact with a white image, the white or light image becomes green over the dark image. It almost seems like lag or something with these colors. Does anybody have a clue what is going on here? I have searched for my problem on AVS and have seen a couple other people with a kind of similar problem. BOTTOM LINE is I am very dissapointed in these HD CRTs. I have owned 3 since christmas. I have owned 2 sanyos both with horrible geometry (that is pretty much impossible to fix.) I then turned to the sony hs420, expecting no problems, no distortion, and well a perfect set. I have been reading that is impossible to have berfect geometry for an hd crt. Well that is BS, I need perfect geometry, or at least something reasonable. (Read my other posts in this thread on my other problems that are unfixable unless you apply magnets.) WTF I am not applying magnets EVER.


I am a gamer who plays for cash and i just thought going HD would not be this bad of an experience. I keep reading how HD CRTs are the best for gaming, and how they have the best picture. I just cant take all these problems!!! I dont want to have to lug this 150 pound monster down the stairs, then exchange it and lug another one back up, and find even more geometry distortions, and other problems.


I think i am just going to get my money back and get an lcd a couple months down the road. This is unacceptable for me. I mean my 20inch SDTV is wonderful, I think i am just going to go with that for now.


I mean am i the one in a million who gets these horrible sets with horrible geometry, that are unfixable in the service menu!!??? IT SURE SEEMS THIS WAY.


ANY WAY/ End rant. I appreciate the help you guys have given me in this thread on some of my other problems. The fact is i have been in the service menu over 30 times and cannot seem to fix my problems at all.


If anybody would know how to fix this green tint i see from a dark backround, when a light backround moves at it (slowly or fast), I will really apprieciate any help on this. THANKS...


PS( I have tried different cables, I tried the other input, I tried playing in 480p, I tried another game, And it is still noticable. The only weird thing is i never noticed this tint since yesturday, when i had this set for about a week!) Thank you.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Tks for confirming that 720p is also effected by the CXA2171 controls. I'm still readin your and Ken's posts, tryin to digest it all, and will try to post back with a few thoughts soon.



Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, and appreciate your posts on this so far. I'd read the discussions earlier in this thread related to CXA 21x1 settings and differences between ATSC/NTSC signals/etc, but it's been quite some time ago and I should review those again in more detail.


One thing I'm especially interested in hearing about is if other folks' are getting anything like the same sorts of results as I am on this with my set. Also, would be interested to know if other folks sets came with a MTRX default of 0 or 1, and perhaps if others are getting along the lines of what I'm getting with CBGN/CRGN/YGN as well.


I'm also wondering if I'll run into any similar issues if/when I use HDMI input and 480p or 720p/1080i sources. Looks like there are seperate settings for the values that might be important for HDMI for the most part, but I've learned to take the servicecodes listings with a grain of salt when it comes to my set and certian settings.


What I probably should also do "someday" is hook up one of my other external(STB) ATSC receivers* to XBR960 via component and see what happens, although to tell much of anything I'd need a station sending 1080i or 720p to put up color bars/test patterns to tell much of anything and I don't get the oppurtunity to come across that too often.


* - They'll output/upconvert or downconvert as necessary either 1080i/720p/480p or 480i as desired, doesn't matter what the source is sending.


Looked at it a little more last night, follows should hopefully explain it as well as summerize things. Sorry guys, I really *tried* to make this short as possible(it's not like I enjoy writing long posts or anything), but thought it better to post on this in as much detail as possible.

*Part I - CXA2171 - MTRX - ATSC/NTSC or 480p vs. 720p/1080i - what's it all about?*


A.) - The "evidence" -- From what I've seen it seems like the differences I'm seeing in color decoding/color balance between 480p vs 720p/1080i perhaps have more to do with 480p vs 720p/1080i than ATSC vs NTSC, and that the MTRX setting is the real "important factor" here, and that I really *need* to be able to use MTRX=0 for 480p, and MTRX=1 for 720p/1080i, but I can't do so, as only 1 value is available for all of those.


Could it be (and I do recall perhaps reading something about this) 480p is more using NTSC specs/Color space, and 720p/1080i is using ATSC specs, and perhaps that's why it looks like it should be MTRX=0 for 480p and MTRX=1 for 720p/1080i ?


Consider the following.


A#1). Note that using AVIA/DVE Color tests+RGBS -- RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 (or 14-14-5-3 - haven't decided on that difference yet), gives me best results for color balance/accuracy with 480i NTSC, and 480i ATSC according to internal QM color bars for color balance using AVIA or DVE tests - i.e. sources that do not use CXA2171 MTRX/etc.settings. For 480i via component, it's pretty much right on with color slider=31, Hue=0, and no changes from the factory "o's" for UCOF/UHOF in P2170-3, nor was it necessary to modify SHUE/SCOL in P2170-4 from factory defaults. Note that I have RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 set up as the "default" color axis choice from XBR's user menu.


That's pretty much the case for S-Video+composite inputs as well. For Svideo however, for best color balance with Color=31, Hue=0, the factory defaults for YV/VC are UCOF=2, UHOF=3 - and that's exactly what is needed. For composite video sources, need to change Tint to G1 for best results.


A#2). With 480p, Using the following values and either AVIA/DVE color tests from DVD OR the 480p ATSC internal QM color bars -- and this is what I think may be signifcant here -- I get the same results for color balance from both 480p DVD+AVIA or DVE, OR 480p internal Test patterns : Color balance Looks very close to "perfect"(It's as close as it will/can get anyway) with these settings, I tried to tweak them farther, just to see, but things are "right as rain" with these settings, anyway. However, color balance is equally "off" via AVIA/DVE+DVD at 480p or internal 480p test patterns If I use the values listed farther below in section A#3 :


MTRX=0 (my set's default, although I have a feeling default should have been 1)

CBGN=6

CRGN=6

YGN = 5


P2170-4


RYR=13

RYB=15

GYR=5

GYB=3


Color=31

HUE=0


A#3). With 1080i/720p + using the values from A#2 above -- Color balance is "off" quite a bit -- especially when using RGBS#2 (Green) ... And, it's off the same amount for Both 1.) the 720p/1080i QM internal color bars AND #2). Color test patterns from DVE(I think from DVE) which ken provided earlier in this thread, and which I used from Memory stick(1080i). However - Using the Following values listed below next paragraph -- Color balance is "right on the money" for both the QM 1080i/720p test patterns AND the color test from memory stick - especially note that everything is the same except for "MTRX" - MTRX is the only thing that changed.


In fact, I even tried "tweaking" both RYR~GYB and CBGN~YGN farther to see if I could find better values using the DVE Color test patterns from Memory stick(1080i), and couldn't find anything better -- even went outside Of SM and checked it via memory stick with the filters that come with DVE and using the tint/hue/sliders and it showed to be the best results(everything looks VERY good color balance wise) I could come up with using tint/hue sliders. :


MTRX=1

CBGN=6

CRGN=6

YGN = 5


P2170-4


RYR=13

RYB=15

GYR=5

GYB=3


Color=31

HUE=0


----------------------------------------------------------


B). What I'm doing about it : Maybe there is a better solution, and I'm just "missing" some 480p vs. 720p/1080i specific setting. Note : also see PartII concerning P2170 YOF~CROP notes concerning why I don't think those are an issue involved with this. Or, maybe there's something else going on and I'm just chasing up the wrong tree, and/or there's something really odd going on with "my set" on this which others aren't experiencing.


Concering this issues, The following two choices (B#1+B#2) seem to be my choices for dealing with the issue while still being cable of achieving good(and for the most part excellent) color balance/accuracy for all my input sources. For various reasons(at least currently), I think the best choice for me is #1, which is what I'm currently doing.


B#1). Set MTRX=1, for best results concerning color accuracy/balance with 720p/1080i for use with my "default" Color axis user menu choice, which points to RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 - In other words, the values listed in section A#1. For 480p - set up alternate RYR~GYB settings of 15-13-0-0 using "monitor" -- as the 2nd "Color axis" setting selectable via user menu. Currently, This allows me to use "default" Color axis for every other source I am using except DVD player outputting 480p via component 5 input. And, since I generally watch DVD's with the player outputting 480p, most of the time it will stay "set" using the different RYR~GYB settings I have set up for it via "monitor" Color axis choice in user menu. Or, I might decide to output 480i from DVD player the vast majority of the time along with the "default" color axis setting from user menu more often for better Color accuracy - That would certianly completely take care of the issue for me -- at least for now ...


Unfortunately, however, I don't think this is going to work out very well if a desired 480p ATSC OTA source "pops up" again in my area. I could be wrong, but given I'm seeing the same thing from internal QM "ATSC 480p" test pattern as I am with NTSC 480p output from DVD player -- I expect that for best results for 480p from ATSC tuner I will probably also have to change the user menu "color axis" setting from "default" to "Monitor" for best color balance/accuracy when I'd switch to that channel, and then change it back to "default" when I switch channels elsewhere. And, there used to be a couple of those here, sending "Fox Widescreen" and 480p, but luckily it's been 720p and "FOX HD" since september 2004.


Also, unfortunetly - for 480p and "MTRX=1" I'm not getting as accurate results using AVIA/DVE or internal QM color bars/tests using RGBS=2 "green". That's even with setting up the best "RYR~GYB" settings as 15-13-0-0 for best results for this as well as also(thought I should try it and see what happens) trying to tweak CGBN~YGN for better results -- I couldn't find better values for CBGN~YGN BTW -- Still best at 6-6-5 ....


It is somewhat close howeever for 480p - For instance, If I change Color slider to "34", it's pretty much right on, although Balance using Red or Blue gun is pretty much spot on with Color=31, Hue=0. this might sound odd, but seemed like If there were negative values allowed/allowed/possible for GYR-GYB settings, I could probably have gotten it right on the money.


Also Note that at first, I was getting slightly better results for Blue/Red with Color=30 so I did a little "checking" and, given the servicecodes listing and what I'd experienced with other scan rates and experiments - was surprised to find that I could(and did) change P21704 SCOL to "31" from it's default of "32", and only effect 480p (and I THINK just via V5/V6 not ATSC but not sure) without effecting other scan rates/inputs. This way, I can leave Color slider at 31, and just change the Color Axis setting for DVD player, depending upon whether I'm sending 480i(use "default" setting= RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3) or 480p(use "monitor" setting - 15-13-0-0 - to account for the "MTRX" difference involved) from the player.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


B#2. My other choice is to set MTRX at "0", which works perfectly for color balance for 480p and my "default" color axis setting(RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3). And, for 720p/1080i set up 2nd set of settings for "monitor" color axis setting to use with it. In this case, RYR~GYB 11-14-13-8 gave me best results with color bars via memory stick or internal 720p/1080i QM Color bars. Although not as close to "perfect" Color balance as I get for 720p/1080i with MTRX=1 and RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3, it appears to be very close to it.


I don't find this option "workable" however, because of the issue with OTA/internal tuner and for best color accuracy needing to change the "color axis" setting in user menu everytime I (or other members of family/etc) switch to/from watching a 1080i/720p source(which is a lot) to a 480i ATSC or NTSC OTA source, which is also a lot. Almost, but It also doesn't quite give me the "extremely close to perfection" color balance for 1080i/720p that using MTRX=1 seems to give. And, I did even notice the slight difference last night during HD "Smarttravels" from PBS HD. Although, on the other hand, -- the "default" color axis(13-15-5-3) in this case is a tad bit more "in the ballpark" for 720p/1080i than using Option B#1.


Also note that again -- when exploring the options for Choice B#2, again, I tried "tweaking" CBGN~YGN (and adjusting RYR~GYB where necessary) for better results, in this case with 1080/720p, and, in this case with MTRX=0 couldn't come up with anything better for 720p/1080i than RYR~GYB 11-14-13-8 and CBGN~YGN -- You guessed it ... 6-6-5 ... Also, Best results did this time occur with "color"=31 and "hue"=0.



-------------------------------------------------

*Part II - YOF/CBOF/CROF(and just in case CBOP/CROP) notes* :


II#1). Just to see, temporarily changed 480p/1080i P2170-1 CBOF~CROF to 31-31, and the "pinkinsh tint" with my "grey background"(set up via MID1 #24BCOL=6(default 0 - black)) went away when selecting a 480p/1080i source in Left-Twin view window -- So, that's what was causing that --


In other words, if CBOF~CROF is set the same for all inputs/scan rates/etc, the "hue" of my Grey Twinview background doesn't change when selecting among sources in the left window - obvious that sources displayed in left window is where it's looking at the SM settings for the sources being displayed, not the right twinview window it seems. Of course, I'm not going to set CBOF/CROF based on that - so, just one of those quirks I suppose. Perhaps may be one reason why they decided to have factory default for BCOL=0.


II#2) Didn't have time/didn't run into any suitable B&W content to look at -- However -- I did check YOF/CBOF/CROF(and tried CROP/CBOP just for heck of it as well) with all sorts of extensively different values using 480p/720p/1080i color bars/test patterns from AVIA/DVE at 480p, Internal QM test patterns, AND color bars from DVE but via Memory stick/1080i which were posted early in thread --


Did that using RGBS 1/2/4/6/etc and checking for changes in Color balance, and also tried looking very closely to see if I could spot differences in color balance/decoding with color bars up with RGBS=7 -- I did pretty much leave Color slider at 31, as that's where I want color decoding/balance to be accurate.


Using those test patterns, from what I could tell I did not see any appreciable, or even noticable change whatsoever in color balance/color decoding no matter where YOF/CBOF/CROF(or CBOP/CROP for that matter) is set. So, on my set It seems, I don't think YOF/CBOF/CROF/CBOP/CROP has much of anything to do with the differences in color balance/color decoding I'm seeing between 480p and 720p/1080i. If it does have anything to do with it, the effect is extremely small, so little not to be noticable by my eyes at least, nor for example does it even change the speed/etc of "flashing" in the AVIA color test bars in any noticable fashion that I can detect.


For now, since I'd already checked it previously with B&W content/etc and ended up using the defaults, I returned YOF/CBOF/CROF to defaults after I was done playing around with it. I'll continue to look for improved settings for those in the future, however.


----------



## Q of BanditZ

^^ Ya'll able to keep with all this?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the section from my post you quoted, I meant 2170P3 #16 MIDE, where the MID5 columns are "assigned" - I.e. Where Twin View MIDE "pro" picture mode is "pointing to" MID5 Column #53 (all zeros).



My bad! I am so used to associating a *setting* number with the parameter name (MIDE) that I was confused by the *index* number 16, thinking it meant a setting value. Sorry, brain scramble!


> Quote:
> . . . concerning P2103-1 #16 SSMD, and your comments about it in the last sentence of a paragraph(d) concerning 3dcomb settings in post #707



I said this in error, associating it with 3D-COMB. You are right; SSMD *is* in 2103-1 -- and it should still be set to 3.


> Quote:
> Well, my plan had been to make this a short post, sorry it didn't turn out that way!



I've thought about saying that several times in my own posts. And then thought "Nah." Service-menu issues are not generally "short" issues, and so why should they be covered in short posts, eh?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Color test patterns from DVE(I think from DVE) which ken provided earlier in this thread, and which I used from Memory stick(1080i).



Yikes, I just read this, and I have to warn you: The use of memory-stick *color-calibration* patterns is unpredictable! I found that, if I set up the decoding matrix (RYR-GYB) with a known-accurate MS pattern in service mode, the pattern was displayed differently once I left service mode. I can't characterize the change, as I have avoided that method ever since. (I confirmed this change by viewing with the color filters instead of isolating the color guns, which can be done only in service mode.)


Instead I made a high-resolution (max bitrate) DVD of the same computer-generated color-bar pattern I once used from the MS, and used that through my DVD player. It jives almost exactly with the patterns on DVE and AVIA, so I am confident that the TV is set up correctly at this point. And a similar pattern displayed from MS I think is correct -- until you put the TV into service mode, and then something changes. (Or the reverse -- it's been a while . . .)


Further, although it seems apparent that the MS image follows the same path in the published block diagram as HD digital video, I don't know just how much is common. For one thing, it is absolutely certain that there is a 1080 X 1440 frame buffer for those MS images, determined by empirical testing way earlier in this thread. And I can't say what the overall color-matrix is or what it should be, NTSC or HD. Maybe it is neither. It's not a big issue with me, since I don't take JPEG-image display very seriously at this time. I just play with it or use computer-generated grayscale patters for focusing and geometry, which are fine for this. (Again, see previous posts.)


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So, If I was a real "neat freak" or something, I could REALLY reorganize the MID5 table and free up a lot of Columns for my own use ..... I don't think I'll ever have a need for that, though(at least I HOPE not)



Each of us who has this urge can skin this cat in different ways. Here was my reasoning:


I was tired of the confusing redundancy in the MID5 columns, and I have not seen any need for having "reserved sections" of the MID5 chart for specific input/scan rates. I do, however, think in terms of what is being sharpened and by how much. So I set up a hierarchical sharpening scheme for the top 14 columns or so, working backward from #63 (POP=63).


So minimum effect is col 63, all zeroes. Then: Very fine sharpening (of very fine detail) increases if MHYL is set to 3 (no clipping) and MHYE is stepped from 1 to 7. The settings for MHCL and MHCE just echo the same for color -- although I think this is nearly undetectable. That accounts for cols 63-56. Then, beginning with 55 I return to MHYE = 1 and set MHYO to 1, lowering the video frequencies affected by the sharpening and making it coarser. Then from 55-50 MHYE steps from 1 to 6, keeping MYHO at 1. Thus from 63 to 50 there is a steady increase in sharpening and coarseness, and that makes experimentation easy: Put up a test image, and then, starting with POP=63 (or MIDE=63 in 2170P-3), decrement the value from 63 downwards until the desired effect is achieved, and lock in that value for MIDE. So, for example, col 60 (MHYE=3) is used for several different signal conditions and modes. And I know what I am getting every time I choose col 60 -- conservative, very fine sharpening. Those top 14 columns are not going to change!


Below 50 I have a couple of custom columns (49, 48) for experimentation with slight vertical sharpening: I duplicated col 60 but added MYVL=3 plus either MYVE=0 or MYVE=1. I use them for the HDMI 480p from my Panasonic S97 DVD player, to a small advantage. But this is on probation; easy to switch back to col 60 if I want zero vertical sharpening.


If I come up with other uses, I can add columns from 47 downwards. Since the basic sharpening settings (cols 63 > 50) follow a *system,* it's easy to experiment without getting confused or waylaid by duplicate columns. Why from the top down? I just super-cautiously wanted to leave in-place as many of the original settings as I could, although I now see that this has virtually no value in the future. I have the charts, after all, and I dispise most of the settings for Vivid, Standard, etc. That's all. I could have started from col 0 and gone *up* from there. The chart in post #707 reflects the above system.


----------



## jon_rhees

Does anyone know the Button sequence to enter the *factory* mode (not *service* mode) on the SXRD sets (the RPTV's, not the projectors). I am trying to get access to the 3D Gamma matrix on these sets (which should be similar to the Ruby and Q004).


Thanks,


Jon


----------



## KrammuelSTEog

I would first like to say that this forum for TV setup is the BEST.

Also, I have done this on the 34XBR800 and knowing that settings are different, I have had great success in adjusting mine pretty close to my satisfaction.

But, I do have a problem now.........I had moved recently and the TV had reset somewhat to a earlier state??? Is this something that certain settings revert back to factory or was it a screwup with the save (I know I had saved my settings, because it was fine for about 2 month before it was moved and power had gone out in that time and didn't affect it).

Any quick comments would be appreciated. TY


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yikes, I just read this, and I have to warn you: The use of memory-stick *color-calibration* patterns is unpredictable! I found that, if I set up the decoding matrix (RYR-GYB) with a known-accurate MS pattern in service mode, the pattern was displayed differently once I left service mode. ........
> 
> 
> .......... I can't characterize the change, as I have avoided that method ever since. (I confirmed this change by viewing with the color filters instead of isolating the color guns, which can be done only in service mode.)
> 
> .)



Yes recall reading about that, from earlier in thread. However, along with internal QM test patterns/color bars it's all I currently have available to use with 1080i/720p unless I catch a station sending 1080i or 720p puting up color bars.


Also can't grasp how "errors" due to memory stick/DVE filters/in and out of service mode/different signal paths/etc/etc. would explain why just changing ONE value (MTRX=0 for 480p, MTRX=1 for 1080i or 720p) makes for pretty much perfect color balance per the test patterns from several different sources at either 480p or 720p/1080i, in EVERY case, while at the same time, MTRX=0 makes things quite a bit off with those different test patterns from different sources in the exact same way for 720p/1080i, same thing for MTRX=1 and 480p.


Changing the MTRX values from 0~1 is going to be exactly the same as errors introduced by DVE filters Outside of SM that is going to exactly match(or more or less from what I could tell) the "errors" introduced by using the MS inside SM? or, something with the signal path involving the QM 720p/1080i color bars? I didn't realize that would be anywhere near likely, if even possible, would like to learn more, however.


Note that in my case, again, for my ability to compare them, I want to stress that I got the same results from the Color bars from memory stick as I did from the internal QM 1080i/720p color bars. I just looked at it in SM with the DVE fitlers VERY quickly(I'll check it again, don't know If I'll get a chance to do that tonight), but seemed to have gotten, For whatever reason pretty much the same results with the DVE filters in and out of service mode - Now, I wasn't looking for any really "slight" differences here however.


I guess I must not be explaining myself very well about this. The differences I'm seeing in Color decoding 480p+720p/1080i with the same MTRX and RYR~GYB settings are perhaps not "huge" difference, but it's not "slight" issues either. Just look at the different values I'm needing for RYR-GYB for instance with the same MTRX value), and the differences are evident with the Internal QM test patterns, not just the MS, which is something I used additionally.


For instance, when balancing with Green gun, with the QM test bars at 1080i/72op or 480p ( and again I think this is important to note as well that avia/DVE color tests via DVD+480p match perfectly what I'm getting with the QM 480p Test bars on this, and the same thing is true with 480i QM color bars+AVIA/DVE via 480i DVD) It's VERY different "shades" of Green for the color bars that "show up" with the green only gun, that match almost PERFECTLY by changing the MTRX value to "0" for 480p test patterns, and "1" value for 720p/1080i, using 13-15-5-3 for RYR~GYB. Same thing if you look at RGBS #6 and the Y-G-R with color bars up from any source .......


The "difference" is also noticeable with program material as well, especially as I noted earlier when it comes to "natrual looking" greens, as well as via comparisons of program material with another set I know(pretty sure anyway - see previous info on this ) Is set up for proper color decoding.


First I thought maybe my DVD player is doing something strange, but again, what is happening with the test patterns match with 480p "ATSC" QM patterns+Avia/DVE Color patterns from DVD outputting 480p, and note that on Color decoder adjustments using AVIA/DVE test patterns on another set but with the SAME DVD player, what is required for it's various color decoder settings match perfectly for 480i and 480p - exactly the same.


On that particular set, it's setting similar to "MTRX"(It's called DABL specifically) can be set completely differently per scan rate(different settings also available for Svideo/composite indpedant from internal tuner/etc), just as all the other color decoder settings can be, including different values for the RYR~GYR "rough" equivlents. Again on that set/receiver, calibrated it for 1080i/720p with color bars from a broadcast ATSC source(checked it with another), and 1080i/720p/480p ATSC requires DABL=1EH, ANY NTSC source requires DABL=1CH, including 480P from DVD - which actually makes perfect sense where ATSC vs. NTSC is concerned, and it actually came from the factory with 1EH setup for 1080i/720p+480p via component(although that didn't work for me for 480p via DVD), and "1CH" for everything else.


It's problem is, "somewhat" similar in that it needs "DABL=1EH" for ATSC output form my OTA ATSC receiver, for 480p, but it won't let you set a different value for 480p from the DVD player, which requires the DABL=1CH.


[ Following section updated with corrections and add'l clarifications ]


What's seemingly different about that as compared to this issue I'm getting with the sony, is I'm needing different results from ATSC/NTSC 480p sources with the toshiba --- or, instead of ATSC vs. NTSC perhaps it might must be more because of different output of the STB Vs the DVD player? although the factory defaults of DABL=1EH for 480p/720p/1080i via component seem to suggest it might be more likely a NTSC vs ATSC colorspace thing .....


However, with the sony XBR960 - the 480p from that SAME DVD player+DVE/AVIA color tests perfectly "match" the pattern labeled "ATSC" 480p from the QM test patterns, BUT the same value "MTRX"(very simiar to "DABL" on the Toshiba) won't work "right" for 480p AND 720p/1080i. MTRX=0 works perfect for 480p, RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3, CBGN~YGN 6-5-5 -- either via DVD+AVIA or DVE tests OR the internal QM test pattern, MTRX=1 "messes that up" but seems to work perfect for 720p/1080i, Same RYR~GYB, Same CBGN~YGN -- Just looking for the "obvious" might indicate/ Might explain why the Servicecodes file says it uses MTRX=1 for specifically -- 1080i/720p via ATSC or V5/V6(no mention of 480p), and why there is also a listed column for "others" and "HDMI 1080i" ... and yet, I can't set different values for 480p vs. 720p/1080i for my set ....


Anyway -- I'll hopefully be able to catch some color bars up someday from a station when I can check the XBR so I can confirm more about what is going on with this to a greater degree --



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The chart in post #707 reflects the above system.



And I very much like+appreciate the chart -- printed it out a week or so ago after the update(well and before the update as well) ---- I was able to easily understand from it what you were talking about the incremetal "sharpening" steps with the different Columns .... - and a great idea -- I'm using a few of the "most suggested" columns currently -- For instance, here's one of them from my "XBR960 service code changes.doc file :


Column #57 (Ken Tech's 1/15/06 suggestion for 720p and 480i/480p Component sources ) :


#0 POP - 57(0) - not saved temp setting - set to whatever column of table you are working in)

#1 MHLY - 0 (0)

#2 MHLC - 0 (0)

#3 MVLY - 0 (0)

#4 MVLC - 0 (0)

#5 MHYR - 0 (0)

#6 MHYL - 3 (0) - *

#7 MHYE - 3 (0) - *

#8 MHYO - 0 (0)

#9 MHCR - 0 (0)

#10 MHCL - 3 (0) - *

#11 MHCE - 3 (0) - *

#12 MHCO - 0 (0)

#13 MVYR - 0 (0)

#14 MVYL - 0 (0) - *

#15 MVYE - 0 (0)

#16 MVCR - 0 (0)

#17 MVCL - 0 (0) - *

#18 MVCE - 0 (0)


Currently using the (more or less) middle of the road values for columns per suggestions from another of your recent posts -- #59 for SD, #58 for 1080i(differs from above that MC, #57 for 720p+480p MHYE/MHCE=2 instead of 3) --- and when I get a chance I'll probably clear out everything from #54~63 and do that, or something simliar/along those lines .. but right now, I have some columns set up #60~63 I was using+experimenting with previously I'm not quite sure I'm completely done with yet ....


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, and appreciate your posts on this so far. I'd read the discussions earlier in this thread related to CXA 21x1 settings and differences between ATSC/NTSC signals/etc, but it's been quite some time ago and I should review those again in more detail.



Don't put an excessive amount of stock in my earlier remarks. It sounds like those controls might work a tad differently than I originally speculated.


Still readin... and still trying to catch up...


----------



## JeffD2.

*THANKS ADU!* I have a stack of papers ½" thick of the pdfs and "how to" sheets. I noticed you were a participant in that thread. Again, thanks for responding. I'll let you know how it works out.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> . . . while at the same time, MTRX=0 makes things quite a bit off with those different test patterns from different sources in the exact same way for 720p/1080i, same thing for MTRX=1 and 480p.



Just a note to say that I haven't yet wrapped my mind around the relationship between the "color matrix" settings of RYR~GYB and the definitions of the HDTV vs NTSC color standards as switched (I believe) by the MTRX value. I think it works like this: HDTV is based on entirely different coordinates for the RGB primaries in a global colorspace, and, for example, a "pure red" on HDTV is not quite the same as the same numerically-defined color displayed according to the NTSC standard. It's a slightly different red! But we have only one CRT in our TVs, and so to accurately display both, there are some remappings of color from one color definition to the other. This choice is made in MTRX, as I seem to have read before, and everything is Kosher *if* the HD video is supplied according to the real HDTV standard (as broadcast is). (I wonder what color standard is applied to digital SD broadcasts! Stations in the Portland, OR, area are starting to broadcast multiple subchannels, some with SD material.)


I don't believe that one standard can be converted to the other by fiddling with the RYR-GYB settings. It's a *different* matrix, where the actual primary colors and their max intensities (the gamut) are different. The RYR-GYB "matrix" adjusts the cross-color rendering for accuracy: GYB intensifies green and steals from blue; GYR intensifies green, stealing from red; RYR simply intensifies red, stealing from nowhere; and RYB increases red at the expense of blue. All of these adjust a "balance" in the derivation of intermediate colors as the eye sees them, given specific drive voltages. That's why you are equalizing the intensities of those color bars against each other and absolute gray *as seen by you.*


I ask myself frequently, Why is the color-rendition of this particular movie/program different between the SD broadcast and the HD simulcast of same? Both usually appear to be satisfactory, but frequently the shadow-area colors are handled better by HD and the reds are a little cooler. Sometimes the grays are different even though they are identical when Color is reduced to Minimum. Is the difference in the TV? Is there a "matrix mismatch"? Is the station at fault? I don't agonize over this, really, but I feel like there's way more going on that I (we) have control over!


I have not tinkered experimentally with the MTRX settings because it looks like it's working okay for my set. I haven't yet digested your overall experiments and their conclusions or your implied questions. That may still take a while, forgive me!


----------



## Jediphish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Q of BanditZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ^^ Ya'll able to keep with all this?




This is why I asked for a Wikipedia article on the subject, or a dedicated webpage. I'm gone for a few hours and there is so much new information that I cannot possibly keep up.


[sighs]


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm gone for a few hours and there is so much new information that I cannot possibly keep up.



It's called binge-posting, a special quality of AROC posters that should be cherished! (AROC = Anal-Retentive Obsessive-Compulsive.)

*Nightwatchman* -- Since you *are* tinkering with image-rendition, I hope you are restarting your TV after 15-30 min warmup, as suggested in post #717. It makes a serious difference in some DA-4-based sets, really! I can really see the difference in, for example, the Matrix DVD via component-480i. I don't know where else it might be important, as in the XBR800 sets.


----------



## Nitewatchman




KenTech said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just a note to say that I haven't yet wrapped my mind around the relationship between the "color matrix" settings of RYR~GYB and the definitions of the HDTV vs NTSC color standards as switched (I believe) by the MTRX value .....
> 
> 
> .... I have not tinkered experimentally with the MTRX settings because it looks like it's working okay for my set. I haven't yet digested your overall experiments and their conclusions or your implied questions. That may still take a while, forgive me!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me for going out of order on quotes from your posts -- If I'm understanding you correctly -- Are you saying on your set, MTRX is set for "1" for 720p/1080i via ATSC receiver, and "changes" to "0" for 480p via say DVD?
> 
> 
> If so, wonder why mine wasn't like that from the factory(it was "0" default for EVERYTHING I could "switch to") -- such as if say it's getting the values from "somewhere else" --- And also, - I wonder why I can't/couldn't set it for "0" for 480p, and "1" for 1080i/etc ? Tried it more than once, it changed "everywhere" to the new value when I changed the value from the default of "0" to "1", for instance ...
> 
> 
> And No problem - I do want to emphacize that I have not really reached any "conclusions" of any sort about this really --- Just reporting on what I've found+observed via any means available to me via "poking around a bit", as more than anything else it just seems to me something isn't "right" on my set with that MTRX value of "0" that was the set default being used for "everything". 720p/1080 HD and 480p DVD.
> 
> 
> Agree 100% with your entire post, looks like we're thinking pretty much the same thing. Just from what I've seen seems like to me I need to be able to use different MTRX values for 480p DVD/NTSC than is the case with 720p/1080i, but it isn't letting me "do that" with 2171CXA "MTRX".
> 
> 
> What I'm really wondering about as well(and is a big part of why I've been posting about this) is if there is another "setting" or lookup table somewhere else involving this I can't find/don't know about which may be set incorrectly that might explain why you, and/or others aren't experiencing at least some sort of indication of issues with this but I am at least noticing that something *may* be off about it ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (I wonder what color standard is applied to digital SD broadcasts! Stations in the Portland, OR, area are starting to broadcast multiple subchannels, some with SD material.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have wondered about that as well - According to one of their engineers One station(a statewide PBS Network in KY - KET) here which varies between 6SD services and 1HD+2SD services(subchannels) depending upon time of day/program schedule/etc -- distributes it's ATSC complaint transport stream from centrally located MPEG encoders(just one for each service/subchannel) to 16 stations statewide via Microwave links with an OTA backup ...
> 
> 
> At the transmitter sites --- for the digital station unique PSIP VCT(virtual channel table) info for that station is added, but otherwise, more or less the datastream is just "passed on" to the RF transmission plant without a decoding/reencoding process --- For the Analog station however at each site, there is a decoder at the transmitter site which decodes the stream and outputs NTSC which is sent to the analog transmitter, and one of those services(called KET1) is used for the analog station. So, "theoretically" the "color"(or anything else, basically) one sees via the analog station should be "pretty much" the same(including fleshtones/etc) as from the KET1 subchannel from the digital station -- And, it is on the XBR960, allways has been .. After calibration of color decoder/etc. it is on my Toshiba set as well ... Actually, one of the stations the color bars I calibrated the Toshiba's decoder with which I mentioned earlier were from one of these SD subchannels, but upconverted from 480i and output at 1080i from my receiver.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't believe that one standard can be converted to the other by fiddling with the RYR-GYB settings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Absolutely, I agree 100%, including your comments on this I didn't quote. I was just "trying it" for say 1080i when using "MTRX=0" to fudge it and see what happened - MTRX=0 was after all the set default on my set for instance both 480p(NTSC) and 1080i ..... [update - at least that's what it was "showing" while in I'm in SM] ... Again, this is why I don't understand how I could have had a "MTRX" value of "0" for default on my set that is supposed to work "right" with 720p+1080i via ATSC and 480p via DVD, and I can't make it "1" for 720p+1080i, and "0" for 480p.
Click to expand...


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> *Nightwatchman* I hope you are restarting your TV after 15-30 min warmup, as suggested in post #717. .



Yes, doing the restart thing. It's been quite a while since I did too much tinkering with it or making many comparisons, and I've been happy with the settings you've found that I haven't done much to mess around with them.


So far with the new recommended settings, I pretty much just plugged them in, did some quick "comparisons" to the old settings+pro defaults and that's about it ...


It might be a while before I get around to more closely looking at things with the new settings, but I will look at them a little more "closely" ...


----------



## Nitewatchman

Folks -- don't spend time trying to deciper my previous posts on this ....


In short - It appears the color matrix is "automatically" switching to the right matrix for 480p NTSC, and also to the right matrix for ATSC 720p/1080i depending upon if source is 480p or 720p/1080i, and it *is* working and switching automatically On my set(at least right now) ... But, it's only doing that auto "switch" when you are NOT in SM.


It is *not* making that "switch" to using the "right" color matrix for HD vs NTSC when I am in SM(at least that's how it's working on my set). Also noticed that Even though I set MTRX=1 (I even used write/enter) last time I was in SM last night --- Noticed it defaulted back to "0" when I went into SM for the first time since then.


It looks like when I am in SM, unless I change it, it's "staying" with the Matrix for NTSC no matter what, even if I switch to a 1080i source. Looks like you simply have to "do it" yourself and set MTRX=1 if you want to check from within SM Color balance with the QM internal 1080i color bars look like or, a test pattern with memory stick(with the necessary "cautions" for using those as ken mentioned of course), Or, while in SM, set it/make sure its set at MTRX=0 if you want to check, say 480p NTSC from DVD.


So, seems to me what changing the MTRX setting is "useful for" is so you can manually set it for looking at color test patterns for 480p from say NTSC DVD (MTRX=0) or 1080i/720p(MTRX=1) while in SM -- at least that's how it's working on my set, since it is only making the switch to the right color matrix for ATSC HD/NTSC 480p "automatically" Outside of SM.


On a whim, tonight turned on the set(it had been off for a couple of hours), powering up in SM -- first thing I noticed was that MTRX was showing "0" again, everywhere, even though I set it to "1" last night.


Here's part of what I did to check this out :


For all of the below, RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3, CBGN~YGN= 6-5-5, Color slider 31, Hue=0.


From within SM -- Left MTRX=0 and checked AVIA color tests output from DVD/AVIA at 480p- Pretty much perfect with using RGBS 1/2/4/6, with DVE filter, I mostly see error in the DVE filter with "green" - Saturation "flahsing box" flashes, but Hue doesn't.


Then, leaving MTRX=0, looked at 1080i QM internal test pattern, and Memory stick+looked at "DVE-Color-Chart-X4.jpg, posted earlier in thread.(I know it's not the best thing to use, but I think it worked for my purposes). As I've experienced before with this, it was very evident that Color balance was "way off" for both with MTRX=0 but, setting MTRX=1 from within SM indicated pretty much perfect Color balance from those 1080i test patterns. Note that this time, I just left it at MTRX=0, however.


Then, I powered down the set. Turned it back on, not going into SM. Went to Memory stick, checked out DVE-Color-Chart-X4.jpg with DVE filters. Pretty much close to "perfect" - or at least very close - VERY different than with "MTRX=0" in SM. Went to the DVD at 480p, pretty much perfect, except again I see the same thing with "green" DVE filter I did when in SM.


Boy, do I feel stupid. Oh, well -- OTOH, glad I stuck with it until I figured out what was going on. Part of the reason why it took me so long to figure this out I think is because I wasn't trusting that pattern from memory stick "enough", and I was "thinking" my changing "MTRX" values was "sticking" in a static way after I left Service mode. Don't know how it turned out that I hadn't noticed it wasn't, until now.


One thing good that did come out of all this for me is, I was able to improve color accuracy/decoding for 480p+720p/1080i by changing CBGN~YGN from 4-5-5 default to 6-6-5.


I guess the only question I have about this now Is about 480p ATSC vs. NTSC - Just as with 480p from DVD, "MTRX=0" appears to be the correct setting for the internal QM color bars for 480p ATSC, as opposed to "MTRX=1" being correct for 720p/1080i internal QM color bars. Wonder if this would perhaps be a good indication that 480p ATSC uses/needs NTSC color matrix? OTOH, that has not been my "experience" with the color decoder settings on my Toshiba set+output from Zenith HDV420 receiver and its differences for example between 480p from the ATSC receiver, and 480p from a DVD Player ...


When I bring up the 480p QM internal test pattern, it says "480p ATSC" on screen, and it also does seem to be the case it would(or should) be the "same"(more or less) as 480p from the ATSC tuner, as all the P21703 settings/etc. remain at factory default when I'm looking at that test pattern, and in fact I haven't changed those for 480p ATSC - that isn't the case when I bring up 1080i test pattern for instance -- my changed P2170-3/etc. settings "show up".


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


[Update]


Thought I should add --- thing is though --- At one point during my poking around on this, I had checked 480p DVD with AVIA outside of SM with DVE filters after just being in SM and changing MTRX from "0" to "1". And, With RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3, CBGN~YBGN 6-6-5, Hue=0 Color=31-- If I recall correctly(which I may not be), I Thought it was more "messed up" than for instance what I noticed with the error I noticed for DVE Green filter tonight, when I "knew" that it was using the correct color matrix for 480p DVD NTSC(equivelent to MTRX=0 if you are working in SM) ...


That, BTW led me at the time to dismiss the possibility it was "switching automatically" outside of service mode .... Probably not -- but, wonder if it is perhaps a possibility that under some circumstances/etc(such as if in some cases you had very recently set MTRX=1 in SM and immediately powered down set+powered back up), the automatic switching to the right color matrix for 480p/720p/1080i outside of SM doesn't allways occur, 100% of the time?

[end update]


----------



## ADU

Stranger and stranger... Based on some other posts I've been reading, it looks like this parameter could work differently depending on whether you have the CXA2151 or CXA2171 chip. _[EDIT: ...or not. See later posts below which seem to suggest that both chips behave similarly with respect to MTRX.]_


FWIW, whatever value I last leave CXA2151/MTRX at on my 34XBR800, that's what comes up next time I power on. This works regardless of whether the new value is written to memory or not. The CXA2171 may work differently though. _[EDIT: Again see posts below, as this isn't really the whole story. And the value will "revert" to it's proper setting if you don't directly re-enter service mode.]_


It's possible your TV could be storing two different values... one for 480i/480p, and one for 720p/1080i, for example. Maybe you can change/store different values for 720p/1080i, but 480i/480p always defaults back to 0. You may also need to write the new value for 720p/1080i to memory (while displaying a bona-fide 1080i signal), unlike on my TV. _[Edit: again see below, as this guess was also off the mark.]_


On the otherhand, if it seems to be working correctly, maybe you should just leave well enough alone.


----------



## Nitewatchman

ADU,


I'm just glad I'm not the only one that has seemed to notice some "odd" behavior with this, at least to some extent.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's possible your TV could be storing two different values... one for 480i/480p, and one for 720p/1080i, for example.



Seems to be that's what is happening on my set -- but not when you're in SM. I still have to change it to "1" to get proper matrix for 720p/1080i when I'm in SM, and the value that "shows" up doesn't change when you are in SM when you switch between say, a 480p and 1080i source.


Or - and just some wild guessing about the "possibilities" here, but perhaps with my set at least it may be more something along the lines that the "MTRX" value from the SM is not even generally used by CXA2171 chip when you are outside of SM, and it's done via hardware/etc. instead, and when you enter SM, something "switches" that feature off on the chip, which has it then "look" the MTRX value and whatever you change it to(when you're in SM). And maybe, just maybe that doesn't allways "stick" perfectly when you enter/exit service mode, and sometimes in certian cases it may still be looking to the "MTRX" value in SM when you're outside of SM. Perhaps, this, or something along these lines might also explain why we don't seem to (generally) have to use Mute-enter to get it to "stick" ....


BTW, I'm pretty sure I checked it from 480i ATSC source(both broadcast+internal 480i ATSC test pattern), and don't think 480i, even 480i ATSC is effected by the CXA2171 SM settings, including "MTRX". Only 480p,720p and 1080i seem effected.


Update: Just confirmed with 480i broadcast source+internal QM 480i color bars that 480i isn't effected by "MTRX", at least on my set by changing the value while in SM. :end update



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You may also need to write the new value for 720p/1080i to memory (while displaying a bona-fide 1080i signal), unlike on my TV.



Could be, but I more suspect it was already "set up" that way on my set, and was already switching between "1" for 720p/1080i and "0" for 480p outside of SM -- I just "didn't know it" for sure as I hadn't checked any patterns from MS(the only 720p/1080i source I have other than broadcast stations) outside of SM Until very recently and was looking at test patterns from within SM, and that's where I still have to set MTRX at either 0 or 1 "manually".



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FWIW, whatever value I last leave CXA2151/MTRX at on my 34XBR800, that's what comes up next time I power on. This works regardless of whether the new value is written to memory or not. The CXA2171 may work differently though.



What's funny is, maybe I'm just losing my mind, but -- I could have swore that I checked that - more than once in fact, and noticed it working the same way as it is with your set - But that is NOT how it happened the last time. Instead, had set it at "1", but it had defaulted to showing "0" next time I powered up in SM - But, the set had been off since then, for several hours at a time. That wasn't the case on earlier occasions when it "looked like" it was sticking - on those occasions, the set wasn't off for more than a few seconds.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On the otherhand, if it seems to be working correctly, maybe you should just leave well enough alone.



I agree. Thing is though, in my case for 720p/1080i - the best way I have to check color balance is to go into SM and look at the Internal Test patterns/Color bars located in the QM PATN section of SM for 720p/1080. And, to do that properly(and to be able to use RGBS) from within SM, I have to set MTRX=1 manually to get the proper color matrix for HD.


I may be remembering it wrong -- but seems like at one point I found it's possible to put up a test pattern from the internal QM test patterns - then hit "mute/enter", and it will "stick" when you go outside of SM. I might try this(but unfortunetly just with ther RGB filters that came with AVIA/DVE) with the 720p/1080i/etc. color bars and see what I get, as I've come to pretty much "trust" those internal test patterns.


Update: Just confirmed that I can get the QM patterns to come up outside of SM by the above method. I just tried this with the Color bars for 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i and checking Color and to see if it switched to the right MTRX with DVE filters outside of SM - Every time, it switched to right matrix, even at one point while I was in SM looking at the 480p color bars, I switched MTRX to "1" in SM and left it there for set power off. In this case the "Correct" MTRX was chosen outside of SM, and afterwards when I reentered SM, MTRX had returned to "0".


When I 1080i via this method - didn't change MTRX from "0" in SM, even though I had 1080i Color bars from internal test patterns up, and noted it was using the "wrong" color matrix while in SM, as usual given MTRX value of "0" --- Then, powered off set, turned back on outside of SM checked it, it chose the right color matrix -- turned off the set, went back into SM, and, as expected MTRX still said "0"(and of course with the "wrong" color matrix)..


HOWEVER -- And this seems strange - I did the exact same process with 720p Color bars as I did/explained above for 1080i - HOWEVER - When I powered the set back up for the "last" time in SM -- it was showing MTRX=1 with the 720p color bars!!!! Even though, it was showing "0"(and with the wrong color matrix) for the first part of the test, before I went outside of SM and checked it.


So, I do the process again first with 480p color bars ... This time, when I power back up into SM for the final part of the "test", it shows "MTRX=0" as it should ...


Thinking I should check 1080i again, I do so just to see what happens this time and if it was different than the first time --- Low and behold it WAS different this time! This time, it showed up with "MTRX=1" when I reentered SM for the final part of the test, whearas the first time, I did the same test, it showed up as "0", even though "1" (or the correct color matrix) was used when I was outside of SM .... VERY strange ...


BTW, Another thing I tried the first time I entered SM this afternoon was to make sure I had the internal tuner on a 1080i station before entering SM. When I powered up in SM, as expected, it showed MTRX=0". But, tried that again the last time I entered SM, and THIS time it said MTRX=1 ! How very strange.


Of course, just to make sure I wasn't losing my mind, I switched between 480i/480p/720p/1080i sources(including color bars) while within service mode, and as usual, it's still not switching "MTRX" while you are IN service mode.


end update


----------



## KenTech

ADU and Nightwatchman: Regarding the CXA2171 chip in the DA-4 chassis, my full-color parameter chart printout indicates the following, as I read it. (I hope this isn't too redundant with what you've already concluded.)


(1) The MTRX parameter is explicitly listed as NOT memorized after you make changes, i.e. you can't WRITE it. Its value is determined on-the-fly by the video mode plus digital signal flags.


(2) For 720 or 1080 from either broadcast (ATSC tuner) or component inputs (V5, V6), its value is *1* = HD standard.


(3) For "Others" it is *0* = NTSC standard. Looks like this includes SD digital, but I suppose one might confirm this by watching it change as you change inputs. Unless it's "frozen" in service mode, which is what Nightwatchman concluded in post #833.


(4) For HDMI it depends on a flag in the signal, and it can be 1 or 0. Here is where your favorite DVD player via HDMI can flip the color matrix for HD, if it's designed to do so. If the flag ("uTiny/$6D_00, byte1/bit6") is 0, MTRX is 0 (NTSC); if it's 1, MTRX is 1 (HD).


It seems quite clear that, for these sets anyway, MTRX is not under your control except *temporarily* in service mode.


----------



## ADU

Nitewatchman,


Be careful with all the powering on and off in such a short space of time. I think there could be a risk of overheating your degaussing coil.


----------



## ADU

Ken,


Your post makes alot of sense. I too am now noticing the same "reverting" behavior on my 34XBR800 (with the older CXA2151 chip) that Nitewatchman is seeing on his 34XBR960 (with the newer CXA2171 chip).


If I switch CXA2151/MTRX to a different setting in the service mode on my 34XBR800, then power back on again into service mode, the change remains intact (because it's like I never left the service mode to begin with).


But if I power back on _without_ going into the service mode, MTRX reverts to its original value.


Easiest way for me to see this is by setting MTRX to 3, which has a distinct green cast.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ADU and Nightwatchman: Regarding the CXA2171 chip in the DA-4 chassis, my full-color parameter chart printout indicates the following, as I read it. (I hope this isn't too redundant with what you've already concluded.)



Not redundant at all, I think your post is an excellent summary concerning how it works with CXA2171. And, that's the way I read the chart as well, just wasn't sure it really "worked" that way with my set, previously -- now(finally) I am sure.


At this point -- The odd thing about it I'm getting with my set is -- such as noted in the tests I did per update of my last post : Sometimes even though outside of SM it seems to be allways using the correct MTRX value for any given source - such as "1" for 1080i HD source from ATSC tuner and "0" for 480p via component V5 -- When you power up in Service mode while that source is still selected, MTRX value *may* or *May not* be using the correct value for that same source -- I've seen it occur both ways, even with the same source+checking it twice over a time span of about 15 minutes.


Couple of other thoughts or clarifications :



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 3) For "Others" it is *0* = NTSC standard. Looks like this includes SD digital, but I suppose one might confirm this by watching it change as you change inputs. Unless it's "frozen" in service mode, which is what Nightwatchman concluded in post #833.



I think SD digital (OTA ATSC, or even 480i via component) must be using NTSC standards[update] For color. While that seems strange since we know OTA SD 480i digital is using ATSC standard for the most part(such as 8VSB for transmission/channel coding, as well as PSIP/etc) --- It's also using MPEG2(which is also "part of" ATSC standard but can be used w/o rest of ATSC as well), and for instance -- what is SD digital/MPEG2 stream via my Dish network SD receiver is NTSC, in this case output via my receiver as analog NTSC via s-video or composite video outputs. [end update]


From what I can tell, looks like 480p (via DVD or perhaps even ATSC -depending upon what the source/including broadcast is using, perhaps) looks to be at least be "mosty" NTSC color as well. For instance, 480p DVD is apparently using and provides accurate color balance with "MTRX=0", and 480p internal QM color bars(which is showing up as "480p ATSC input in SM") is using/needs "MTRX=0" for accurate color balance.


What I concluded is that 480i ATSC sources -- broadcast or the internal 480i color bars(or anything else except perhaps 480p that "fits" in that "others column" for that matter - including 480i via component) is not effected by changing "MTRX" setting from within SM, or by changing CBGN/CYGN/YGN for that matter. Perhaps it could be affected outside of SM, perhaps depending upon flags/metadata sent via the MPEG2 stream/etc. by the broadcaster.


What I also concluded is :


a). From within SM, 480p/720p and 1080i are effected by changing "MTRX" value.


b). In SM, or outside SM, CBGN/CRGN/YGN effects 480p/720p and 1080i.


Also -- note that color accuracy with AVIA Color tests via 480p DVD outside of SM improved via my slight modification of CBGN/CRGN/YGN, which also didn't effect color balance with 480i Component video via DVD/AVIA color tests.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It seems quite clear that, for these sets anyway, MTRX is not under your control except *temporarily* in service mode.



Yes, absolutely. And, I would add(at least on my set) it also seems quite clear that within service mode, it's a necessary control to have access to as :


#1). It is apparent(at least on my set per my observations) that unlike is the case outside of SM -- when you are working in SM, it is not properly detirming the correct value and switching "on the fly" to that correct value depending upon source, or digital signal flags/etc - at least for the internal QM test patterns, Memory stick, OR 480p via DVD. You have to do that/make sure it's set properly for the source you are using(per the codes in the service code listing), Manually.


#2) WHY It's useful to be able to modify MTRX in SM for the "correct" value , per #1), above is -- You need to be able to modify MTRX value in SM while checking or modifying CBGN/CRGN/YGN for improved Color balance for 480p/720p/1080i sources in order to select the proper MTRX value which corresponds to the source you are using -- For instance, "0" for 480p, or "1" for 1080i HD color bars --- In order that you are using the correct color matrix (ATSC or NTSC/etc.) for the given source. From what I've seen, the "correct" matrix value for instance is "1" for 1080i/720p, "0" for 480p via DVD or any other 480p source of Color bars/tests.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Be careful with all the powering on and off in such a short space of time. I think there could be a risk of overheating your degaussing coil.



Yes, thanks for the reminder. Probably should have thought more about that instead of all the actual "work" I have to do today -- before doing some of that so quickly ... And if I'd had the time should have waited longer than that, or even better waited until I had the time -- perhaps 15 minutes between power cycles ...


Generally it was probably at least 5 minutes or so between most power cycles to check the SM values, when in SM change RGBS/etc, but I did do it a few times much quicker than that, especially after going out of SM, powering up/checking pattern with DVE filter than powering down+powering back up In SM ..


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Be careful with all the powering on and off in such a short space of time. I think there could be a risk of overheating your degaussing coil.



No chance of this with Sony DA-4 chassis and likely many other Sony models. A built-in timer (or an old-fashioned PTC resistor in series) prevents degaussing for quite a while after it first happens. You can hear when it's active (BZ-z-z-t). Even my ancient 1978 RCA monitor was no problem. If you turned off the set and turned it on within 5 minutes, no degaussing.


----------



## Biochemlab




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No chance of this with Sony DA-4 chassis and likely many other Sony models. A built-in timer (or an old-fashioned PTC resistor in series) prevents degaussing for quite a while after it happens. You can hear when it's active (BZ-z-z-t). Even my ancient 1978 RCA monitor was no problem. If you turned off the set and turned it on within 5 minutes, no degaussing.



I noticed that with mine... I have had to turn it off and on a couple times within 1 - 2 minutes, and it only degaussed itself once.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> #2) WHY It's useful to be able to modify MTRX in SM for the "correct" value , per #1), above is -- You need to be able to modify MTRX value in SM while checking or modifying CBGN/CRGN/YGN for improved Color balance for 480p/720p/1080i sources



Well put! Are you suggesting that a good way to set up CBGN/CRGN/YGN balance is to put up the internal color bars for (e.g.) HD, make sure MTRX=1, and then touch up those settings with the one-color guns, leaving RYR-GYB alone? If this doesn't make sense according to your recent experience (thank you!), what do you suggest as a procedure? I haven't yet tried to fiddle with these values. (Rain is predicted here for Saturday. [Rubs hands together])


----------



## JeffD2.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> JeffD2.
> 
> 
> 2170D-3/JUMP should be the parameter you're lookin for to expand HD to fill the screen on the 36HS510. If you need to tweak vertical sizing and/or position on the expanded HD, some folks use the MID controls. I found the various sensitivities and relationships in those controls rather complicated and easy to screw up though, so I've been using 2170D-1/ASPT for vertical size and 2170D-1/SCRL for vertical position instead.................


*PERFECT!* I can't thank you enough for this tip. I can now pass pure 1080i from the STB directly to the TV without the cable box (SA3250HD) do any scaling (it would down convert to 480p when IT did the scaling). I just recently got an upconverting DVD player which I can NOW take full advantage of. Also I didn't have to fudge with any of vertical size or position settings. It really couldn't have gone any smoother.


A cold beer and a toast to ADU! THANK YOU!


PS- I and a few others around the internet have a problem with the memory stick icon and "access" flashing in the bottom right corner of the screen. Not all the time, and not in any given time pattern. Anyone have a fix or disable for that?


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well put! Are you suggesting that a good way to set up CBGN/CRGN/YGN balance is to put up the internal color bars for (e.g.) HD, make sure MTRX=1, and then touch up those settings with the one-color guns, leaving RYR-GYB alone?



I'm guessing this is probably going go to go more quickly than you might be thinking Ken -- Careful though as that's a if I ever heard one










I'd think that should work -- and makes sense -- I also do think it's a good idea to check what you have with your CBGN~YGN settings currently, as well as the new settings you come up with at 480p via DVD and/or internal color bars/MTRX=0, and both 720p+1080i via internal color bars/MTRX=1.


From what I'm getting, I think with the "best" CBGN~YGN values you should see the same thing for all those scan rates which CBGN~YGN effects(480p/720p/1080i) - and, with best settings for CBGN~YGN, and the same RYR~GYB settings for everything -- what you are getting color balance wise for 480p/720p/1080i should also "match" what you are getting from those scan rates/inputs that aren't effected by CBGN~YGN settings -- Of course the goal here being "perfect" or as near perfect Color balance for all sources/inputs/scan rates/etc.


And, perhaps the best procedure to use might not necessarily be the same for everyone for various reasons(I'll get into these later). Perhaps for some it might be better to use 1080i test pattern and MTRX=1 to tweak CBGN~YGN, or might be better to use 480p DVD and MTRX=0.


What I actually did, in this order was :


#1). To "tweak" CBGN~YGN -- Leave the RYR~GYB(13-15-5-3) alone and use AVIA(DVE would work as well of course) color tests from 480p DVD via component input and RGBS=1/2/4/6 with MTRX=0. My factory defaults for CBGN/CRGN/YGN were : 4-5-5. My new values are 6-6-5.


Note that unlike with RYR~GYB and using AVIA or DVE with one-color guns -- changing ANY value of CBGN/CRGN/YGN effects what you get to some degree(in some cases to more of a degree than others) with the tests with other two "one color guns" -- So, you'll have probably have to go back through looking at RGBS=1/2/4 several times while "touching up" all 3 settings ...


#2). Then, I went to the 1080i internal color bars, Changed MTRX=1 and using RGBS in the same fashion tried to see if I could Improve the settings for CBGN/CRGN/YGN that I got for 480p DVD. I couldn't Improve them - that may be more because I think I was able to do it more precisely with AVIA than I could with the internal color bars --- especially with red gun, but what I'm getting for 1080i(MTRX=1) very much seems to "match" what I'm getting with 480p(MTRX=0).


#3). Tried the 720P internal color bars in same way as #2, still wasn't able to improve anything -- Not that it needs improvement - From what I can tell, it's really right on the money.


Notes:


So, It looks like(from what I'm getting with this at least) Color balance using the one gun approach for #1 and #2, or #1 and #3 should produce "Matching results", for 480p vs 720p, or 720p vs 1080i or 720p vs. 1080i. In other words, given you have accurate color set up with say 480i DVD component with your chosen RYR~GYB settings --- with those same RYR~GYB settings, and finding the "best" CBGN~YGN settings as well -- I think the color balance should also be accurate for all 3 guns used 1 at a time, and look the same via color bars for all three scan rates 480p(with MTRX=0), or 720p(with MTRX=1), or 1080i(with MTRX=1).


Note that on my set -- I was getting pretty much perfect results with DVE or AVIA Color tests via DVD 480i component input with RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3. But, with 480p DVD via AVIA/DVE, and the factory CBGN~YGN settings, It was noticably a bit off from that(even outside of SM) Mainly was evident with tests with "blue" only or "red" only gun - It's now pretty much identical for 480i/480p given the new values I'm using for CBGN~YGN.


So, you might not even want to change CBGN/CRGN/YGN from the factory values If your 480p DVD via component is "perfect", as changing those for 1080i will effect 480p as well -- In other words - If your 480p is "perfect" now, 720p and 1080i should be as well -- But, You might must just want to check 720p/1080i with internal QM Color bars with RGBS 1/2/4/6 to make sure.


Besides CBGN~YGN values being used for 480p and not 480i concerning any differences there might be between 480i vs 480p DVD -- the other things I can think of that might be involved if they don't match color wise with the same RYR~GYB setting might be if DVD player is outputting slightly different color for 480p than it does for 480i, or perhaps something involving 480p specific HUE/TINT offsets in user controls or 2170P3 UCOF/UHOF. Also, note that I noticed on my set - even though the factory default was the same for 480i/480p/720p/1080i via component but noticed even SHUE/SCOL in 2170P4 has a 480p component "specific" value that doesn't apply to say 480i via component or 720p via internal tuner. Even though the service code listing seems to not necessarily indicate those P21704 values have such "scan rate" specific values.


In my case I think I was also able to detirmine for sure DVD player I'm using was outputting same color for 480i and 480p per adjustment with it and use of AVIA/DVE for adjusting color decoder in another set which happens to have scan rate specific color decoder settings. As, for example, on that set for both 480i and 480p from this DVD player the Color decoder settings needed to be exactly the same, and produced matching results with AVIA/DVE color tests for both 480i and 480p. And, where The sony is a bit different in that 480p also is "effected" by CBGN~YGN, whearas 480i from DVD at least, doesn't appear to be.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> #1). To "tweak" CBGN~YGN -- Leave the RYR~GYB(13-15-5-3) alone and use AVIA(DVE would work as well of course) color tests from 480p DVD via component input and RGBS=1/2/4/6 with MTRX=0. My factory defaults for CBGN/CRGN/YGN were : 4-5-5. My new values are 6-6-5.



In my case, the output from my Panasonic S97 component jacks for 480p is dreadful! Much cruder than for the same at 480i and for HDMI at 480p. So it's out of the picture! But I'm curious what I get for the internal HD pattern and maybe HDMI/480p. I'll figure something out. The rest of the method (1080i, etc.) seems exactly right.


BTW, I believe these three parameters, CBGN~YGN, are gain ("GN") controls for the three components of the affected video, already known as Y, Cb, and Cr. Y is luminance alone, and Cb and Cr completely determine color hue and saturation along a blue-yellow and red-green axis, respectively. So their adjustment will not track with RGB adjustments elsewhere, as they are a totally different way of specifying an image. These TVs seem to process everything as YCrCb right up to the last stage before the CRT, where, of course, it must be converted for the three R, G, and B guns. Another name for component video is "YUV." Accordingly, the chip we're discussing, the CXA2171 or equivalent, is designated as "YUVSW," the YUV switch, I presume. It takes inputs from just about everywhere in the block diagram. From there, signals eventually find their way to the CXA2170 chip and thence to the CRT driver board.


Implication of above: If you are satisfied with image brightness (intensity of white), you should probably leave YGN alone. That overall parameter is best adjusted elsewhere, e.g. 2170P-4/**** (sub-Picture). You can further differentiate RF from CV/YC in 2103-1/SCON.


Some definitions hold that YPbPr is for analog signals and YCbCr indicates digital versions of same. The Sony DA-4 block diagram confuses YCrCb and YPrPb, showing the former as the designation at the component inputs but also after A/D conversion. But YPrPb appears at the output of the TASC tuner. Huh? Assume nothing!


Nowhere can I find any reference in the block diagram to the internal pattern generator, no chip, no module. So I don't know where it inserts its signal.


As one who has meddled with Lab color settings for images in Photoshop, a form of YPrPb, I can say that the adjustment of Pr and Pb is not nearly as intuitive as is RGB manipulation. You have been warned!


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW, I believe these three parameters, CBGN~YGN, are gain ("GN") controls for the three components of the affected video, already known as Y, Cb, and Cr.



I think you'll believe that even more if you use them.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Y is luminance alone, and Cb and Cr completely determine color hue and saturation along a blue-yellow and red-green axis, respectively. So their adjustment will not track with RGB adjustments elsewhere, as they are a totally different way of specifying an image.



Absolutely, that's component video for you. What I noticed with my "differences" between 480i and 480p AVIA/DVE tests using RGB guns individually was mainly that with 480p with the "Blue" gun only, and "Red" only balance was off(but neither by a whole lot), With the "green" gun it was much closer to being accurate, but still was off a bit.


Just to see, I tried to change RYR~GYB RYR~RYB most specifically just to see how it would work for an "improvement", but that didn't really quite "work" to my satisfaction. And, adjusting Blue saturation(with Color slider or P21703 UCOF) didn't quite work as well as I wanted either - "Hue" for Blue was still pretty much right on with user control set to "0" anyway.


keep in mind that this same player via calibration of color decoder settings on another set calibrated perfectly "the same" for both 480i/p via component connection.


So, I thought what OTHER possible controls would let me perhaps improve things with 480p that might actually work and do something "different" than hue/color saturation sliders or 2170P3 UCOF/UHOF, etc. ? For me, Slight changes to CBGN/CRGN seemed to have done the trick ... Not only for 480p, but 720p/1080i as well. If it HAD of couse "messed up" 720p or 1080i from the internal tuner, I would have had to have tried something else -- instead, though, it *equally* improved things for 480p AND 720p/1080i. In fact, I noticed right off the more "natural" look to Color on 720p/1080i broadcast sources.


Now, I don't expect that will necessarily be the case for everyone, that's for sure.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That overall parameter is best adjusted elsewhere, e.g. 2170P-4/**** (sub-Picture). You can further differentiate RF from CV/YC in 2103-1/SCON.



Factory setting for "****" on my set was probably the worst single "adjustment" from the factory of all the settings I've come across. First thing I adjusted.


So, imagine if the set defaults could be so off for "****" how they could also be off, if perhaps only just a little bit for CBGN/CRGN as well ... maybe even YGN, although I did not change/need to change that one ...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Some definitions hold that YPbPr is for analog signals and YCbCr indicates digital versions of same. The Sony DA-4 block diagram confuses YCrCb and YPrPb, showing the former as the designation at the component inputs but also after A/D conversion. But YPrPb appears at the output of the TASC tuner. Huh? Assume nothing!
> 
> 
> Nowhere can I find any reference in the block diagram to the internal pattern generator, no chip, no module. So I don't know where it inserts its signal.



Yes, I was reading and following along with the discussion and looking at the block diagram/trying to decipher it on this earlier in thread at the time you guys were talking about it. Not sure there really is much, if any any real difference between YpbPr/YcbCr - at least where pbPR+cbCr and "color" is concerned, but who knows ...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As one who has meddled with Lab color settings for images in Photoshop, a form of YPrPb, I can say that the adjustment of Pr and Pb is not nearly as intuitive as is RGB manipulation. You have been warned!



I think I tried to say a little bit about how it's not very "intuitive" above in my last post -- but, at least for me, it wasn't an extremely difficult thing either, as the values didn't need to change much. Wanted to try to say more about that, but would have been very difficult to explain, and I didn't really take extremely specific notes concerning what exactly "happened" either ...


For instance -- You can't just adjust CRGN with say "Red" gun without effecting what "happens" if you were looking at "Green" gun AND even the "blue gun" (if I recall to a lesser degree) as well, ... You just have to keep "moving" between them (RGBS 1/2/4 AND I found looking at RGBS #6 helped me as well) and checking to see with all 3 guns on indivdually to get a good idea of all the "effects" caused by a change in value + or -1 for CBGN/CRGN or YGN(and again, I did not have to change YGN). Then again, I didn't find it THAT difficult -- Honestly, it took me maybe 7~10 minutes to find the values I'm using for CBGN~YGN = 6-6-5 given the factory defaults of : 4-5-5, and only a few more mintues on each scan rate trying to "improve" those just to see if I could ... and again, I couldn't, and there really wasn't a need to ...


Using the AVIA color tests, for the most part (and I'd think DVE would have worked just as well) I think did help so I could be more "precise" about it, however, as just looking at "standard" Color bars and doing this, as maybe it's just me, but at least I find to be more difficult to be as precise -- especially with "red Only" gun+trying to match as closely as possible the "hue" as well as brightness of the L+R "side" of the pattern that shows up ....


I don't know why this is given various "errors" that may have been introduced which you've mentioned, but also, those DVE Color bars on memory stick/1080i also seemed to work awfully well for me, with MTRX=1, inside SM as well as checking it with DVE filters outside of SM. Using those also indicated that I could find no better setting for CBGN/CRGN than what I found at 480p via DVD with AVIA,(or - not even if I moved the Hue or Color sliders 1 value to Left or right) and also seemed to indicate the same thing I was seeing with the internal QM 1080i+720p color bars.


Anyway -- As they say "YMMV"(your mileage may vary), and certianly it may turn out to be completely different for you ---- It's really no big deal, if you don't get an improvement with it, they probably shouldn't be changed from the defaults anyway.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Factory setting for "****" on my set was probably the worst single "adjustment" from the factory of all the settings I've come across. First thing I adjusted.
> 
> 
> So, imagine if the set defaults could be so off for "****" how they could also be off, if perhaps only just a little bit for CBGN/CRGN as well ... maybe even YGN, although I did not change/need to change that one ...



When my set was new, I had to set up the black level for Brightness=31 by boosting 2170P-1/SBRT from the idiotic 16 as-purchased to nearly 38, and then I redefined the three _DRV settings for more appropriate white levels for Picture=31. Black crush was gross out of the box! Yet several other settings were and are still perfect -- Hue and Color, for example, for most inputs.


I believe different groups of default settings were specified by different committees at Sony. They didn't talk to each other. They're in different cities, even.


My greenish-yellow shadows for HD had to be tamed by large changes in 2170P-1/CBOF and CROF. What were they thinking? And I have used **** to balance the apparent "brightness" of the picture among the inputs. HD was much too bright, and 480i thru HDMI too dim. Sheesh! All water over the bridge, now . . .


----------



## KenTech

*So What Are Coring and Limiting?*


In various descriptions of the service mode parameters provided by Sony, we see the words coring and also limiting or clipping. As an electronics engineer, I understand limiting/clipping: Pass a signal up to a certain amplitude, then no more. If it's instantaneous, it's clipping. In the context of image manipulation, it means: place a limit on how much of a specific effect will be applied. I have elected NOT use limiting, preferring to see the results of experiments where effects are applied in a *linear* fashion.


Examples of where it is implemented: 2170P-3/VMLM (limits amount of velocity modulation) and in the MID5 table where the code ends in L, e.g. MHYL.


But coring? Its effect is subtle, but I have wanted to understand it. Than I stumbled across a definition at videohelp.com in their glossary:

For noise reduction:

Coring is used to remove fine detail information that does not contribute significantly to the detail of the picture but which adds noise to the image. Imagine the detail information viewed on a scope. About the baseline you'd see primarily the noise information, with the detail extending beyond that. Now imagine that you sliced (or cored) this signal so that only the information above the noise on the baseline came through. You would be left with most of the detail information intact but with much of the noise information removed. The coring adjustment determines how far from the baseline the detail information removed. You want to use just enough coring to reduce the noise in the picture but not so much that the fine detail in the image is affected.
Right! I think Sony means threshold, below which no effect is applied, like inverse-limiting at the *low* end of the intensity scale.


So, imagine the following example: a video picture of an ancient castle wall of rectangular stones, with a bit of gray sky at the top. (Think Rudy Maxa's Travels in Europe.) Let's use sharpening as an example of an effect.


The detail in the stones (sandy, grainy texture) has a brightness range of, say 5%, the cracks between the stones 20%, and the edge between the top of the wall and the sky 75%. If I LIMIT detail enhancement, a certain amount is applied to the stone texture, 4 times as much to the cracks, but NOT 16 times as much to the sky boundary - that might cause outlining or overshoot big-time. So I limit it to, say 10 times as much as the stone texture. The example can be extrapolated to other enhancement parameters; you get the idea: Apply up to this much, but no more.


It appears that coring might mean: Don't apply any effect until a threshold is *exceeded.* Example from the stone wall: Set coring so the brightness range of detail has to exceed 10% before it is sharpened. So the stone texture (5%) isn't changed at all, but the cracks (20%) are sharpened, and so is the sky boundary at 75%. Of course limiting can also be applied, making the effect quite complex: Start enhancing at 10% but stop at 50%, for example.


To keep the effects I have been experimenting with linear, I have tried my best to set any coring and limiting to zero, i.e. no effect. Some charts I have for earlier TVs (e.g. XBR2 series) show OFF = 0 with increasing amount as you go from 1 to 3 (e.g. VMCR). But I have no specific descriptions for the MID5 coring parameters; I have presumed that 0 = no effect, but I've been fooled before.


Bottom line: For these nonlinear effects, one cannot *assume* that 0 = no effect. In the case of limiting, 3 = no effect. For some other nonlinear parameters (2170P-3/SHF0) 1 seems to inhibit the effect, and 0 enables it. Go figure. Same for some of the bandwidth or low-pass filters: 1 or 3 is the inhibit setting, not 0.


So I will run a few experiments using test patterns of varying contrast to see if I can confirm the zero settings for these coring settings, and I'll report back.


Arguments for applying these nonlinear parameters:


(1) Limiting: CRT spot is finite in size and is a mushy little blob. Therefore enhance sharpness of fine textures, which are at a disadvantage, but lay off obvious bright edges and boundaries.


(2) Coring: Constant video noise that is generated in the signal chain somewhere will be enhanced by sharpening low-level texture, so sharpening the picture will just make it grainier-noisier-scratchier. Suppress sharpening until there is some real video detail that needs it.


Comment: Trouble is, (2) usually looks really *false,* sort of "pasty," and modern "3D" dynamic noise reduction is much better, averaging grain-noise over several frames to smooth it out (it's random) while retaining real image texture (unchanging from frame-to-frame). Some of this is already built-in to these Sony sets. I see coring as superfluous, so far.


----------



## williamtassone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Q of BanditZ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ^^ Ya'll able to keep with all this?



Is it just me who's shaking my head- this thread gives new meaning to the term complexity


----------



## KenTech

After I wrote the previous article, I ran some controlled experiments to confirm the effects of the coring parameters and what settings disable them.


I put up a still from Title 17 on DVE (city office buildings and sky) and temporarily adjusted the MID5 column that was active to MHYL=3, MHYE=7, and MHYO=1, to maximize sharpening of the image. I noted that, as I varied the coring parameter, MHYR from 0 to 3 and back, sharpening of the fine grain in the sky was suppressed at MYHR=3 and increased as I backed off to 0. Sharpening of the high-contrast detail on the buildings was not affected. This is evidence that the coring is at zero at MHYR=0, and that is the setting I recommend in my published chart. Nice to finally understand it! It seems to work just like I described in the article sort of a pasty smoothness I dislike.


Next I put up a horizontally-stepped grayscale pattern (vertical bars), reverted to the normal settings for sharpness, set ClearEdge VM at Maximum, and watched what happened as I varied 2170P-3/VMCR from 0 to 3 and back. I went from VM=Max to VM=Off and back to make sure I saw the effect of VM. Result: VM has no effect on the low-contrast boundaries between the grayscale steps at VMCR=3, and the effect increases as you lower VMCR to 0. VM on high-contrast boundaries (another pattern) was not affected. Conclusion: VM coring is off at VMCR=0, the setting I have been using and recommending. But now we know for sure that it's Off!


The effects of sharpening and/or VM seem most natural when applied evenly across the contrast range. Although I can see a point in, perhaps, *limiting* these effects for high-contrast detail, I can see no justification for doing so on low-level detail, and so I will continue to *recommend coring parameters be set to 0 (= Off)*.


I note, now that I've been sensitized to the subject, that there are coring parameters in the 3D-COMB group: DYCO, DYCG, DCCO, DCGA, YHCO, and YHCG. (O = coring amount, G = gain.) But I'm not going to spend any time with these any time soon, as they apply only to SD analog broadcast, CV (composite), and YC (S-video) inputs and don't affect the high-quality sources I use. Further, some preliminary tinkering reveals no big changes to images when some of the parameters are wildly varied. So they're low priority for now.


Silimar, easier tests confirmed that the "limiting" parameters have minimum effect when set to 3. That, too, is what I had believed but hadn't rigorously confirmed, but it's easy to see in simple tests.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *williamtassone* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is it just me who's shaking my head- this thread gives new meaning to the term complexity



Sorry, but this *is* the deep end of the pool! Lifejackets can be rented at the concession stand. Mention "Sony service mode" to the guy behind the counter, and he'll give you a big sympathy discount.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Lots of thoughts, but little time to post about all of them, so I'll just comment on a couple of them.


KenTech,


Thanks for the info+for doing the tests on "coring"+ it's effects with VMCR/etc.. I am wondering if there is anything that may be useful for reducing sharpening effects of "high contrast" boundaries.


Also, If I ever get around to it, I might check out DYCO, DYCG, DCCO, DCGA, YHCO, and YHCG a bit, as I do still use analog OTA via RF and SD via Dish network receiver+S-VHS deck via svideo. Just in case I might find some small changes beneficial.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My greenish-yellow shadows for HD had to be tamed by large changes in 2170P-1/CBOF and CROF. What were they thinking?



Isn't it interesting the differences we get from these sets in some cases? I've not had any sort of issue with anything like that, with any input/scan rate/etc - even when I've went and "looked for it". As mentioned earlier, only thing I've noticed any sort of issue concerning my CBOF/CROF set defaults involve the very slight change in hue in my Grey background I have set up for "Twin view" when I select 480p or 1080i sources in the left window.


So, don't know what they were thinking but perhaps with one exception(720p, not 480p or 1080i, interestingly enough) the set's defaults for CBOF/CROF for my set seem to be either close, or right on the mark. Shadows/blacks are 'black" not contaminated with other colors. Except for the seemingly odd factory default for my set of CBOF/CROF=31/31 for 720p -- My set defaults for everything else for YOF~CROF are exactly as in service code listing.


Although I didn't actually "check it" in any specific way, when I was adjusting 2171CXA CBGN~YGN to vastly different values in order to quickly detirmine which scan rates/inputs those controls effect --- I noticed that I could imagine it's possible that "vastly different settings" for CBGN~YGN might significantly effect what you'd need for CBOF/CROF. Again, just speculating as that might not be the case since I didn't specifically check it, and only was looking to see what inputs/scan rates were effected by CGBN~YGN.


I can say the small changes I actually made to CBGN/CRGN for actual use did not require different CBOF/CROF settings. Just speculating a bit, but it seems like "different" greyscale, and/or perhaps even a different adjustment of HV control on flyback transformer for different sets could perhaps also be other factors involved that might explain why different folks may find they might need "different" CBOF/CROF settings.


Last night I went back for about the third time(or was it 5th?) and checked CBOF/CROF settings for several scan rates. I mostly checked it by setting color slider at maximum and slightly increasing brightness slider so I could more easily see what was going on. With 480i/480p from DVD I used dark, or mostly "dark" test patterns, such as THX Optimizer "brightness" test screen. For 1080i, luckily I have a couple of stations here which send black(along with a small ID bug) on their 1080i HD subchannels when they aren't sending programming on it and are in 4-channel SD multicast "mode".


I found - as has been the case previously -- by looking at this by eye, I couldn't improve on the factory CBOF/CROF settings for 1080i or 480p. Certianly -- looking at "black" with color all the way up, I could see the difference if I lowered CROF from the factory default of "47" for 1080i to say "44" - Even though I thought "44" looked like the best value, I couldn't really tell for sure by "eyeballing it" whether "44" or "47" was the better setting, so I left it at default(47).


Also note that even if I set CBOF/CROF to 31/31 for 1080i - I wouldn't say I am really seeing much color contamination -- but, those at 31/31 with use of a "pure"(hopefully anyway) black screen there is a very, very slight amount of it, and it is on the "green" side of things.


I did end up changing my 720p CBOF/CROF from default 31/31 to match the defaults in the servicecode listing. My (admittedly "flawed" reasoning) reasoning for this based more on #1). "faith" in the service codes listings matching the set defaults for everything else on my set, #2).the slight effects on the "hue" in my "twin view" grey background - and matching what is happening with 1080i+480p in that regard, and #3) - Per #2 as well - what I saw with "black screen+ID bug" from the PBS affilates at 1080i when they aren't sending programming.


I didn't have a good way to "look" at it with 720p other than looking at the black pillar bars during upconverted SD programming from local stations sending 720p. I did try that as well and did manage to catch "black" being sent for a couple of seconds from 720p stations on a few occasions. From what little I could tell with that, as well as pertaining to my "reasoning"(especially #2+3 mentioned above) the service code listing default(CBOF/CROF = 45/47) did, nevertheless appear to be a better choice than the odd CBOF/CROF=31/31 default setting. Also, after changing it to CBOF/CROF = 45/47 I noticed what I'm seeing during program material(including the extremely slight change in flesh tones/etc) from 720p stations seems to better "match" what I'm seeing with 1080i stations - although it's such a slight, slight difference it's hard to say if that's more because I'm just "seeing things" I want to see. It may be.


I doubt If they'll need to be changed much, but, 'll revisit CBOF/CROF in the future as possible if/when I happen to run across B&W programming, and I might unhook one of my external ATSC receivers from another set and hook it up to the Sony via component connection to see what happens -- I can send whatever scan rate I want from it(1080i/720p/480p/etc), and It also actually sends "video black"" if there is "no signal". Would also be interesting to see if factory CBOF/CROF setting for 720p from V5/V6 component differs from the 31/31 I had for ATSC 720p. CBOF/CROF values for 480p ATSC+480p Component are slightly different - per service codes listings, and as I confirmed via 480p via V5 and internal 480p ATSC test pattern.


I have used that STB/ATSC receiver to set similar R+B offsets for 720p/1080i on another display(Samsung TXN2668WHF) I was using it with. Although I don't necessarily expect on the XBR960 the CBOF/CROF settings will necessarily be the same via component V6 as what internal ATSC needs. I do recall that It did work very well to adjust the R/B offsets on that other set, and that very different values from its factory defaults were quite necessary.


---------------------------------------------------------


Oh --- BTW - I'd mentioned something about this earlier -- I found it does work to put up 480p ATSC internal QM test pattern to adjust your image processing settings and P2170-4 GAMM/BLK/etc. per pic mode. While you can't change pic modes with the QM test pattern up, it uses whatever pic mode you were using before you went into QM and put up the test pattern. Since I don't have a 480p ATSC signal available at current, I went through all the pic modes for 480p ATSC and set up the relevant settings to do my "hijacking" of vivid/standard/movie for 480p, so if/when a 480p ATSC OTA signal does pop up, I won't have to do it, then - besides perhaps making small adjustments for MID5 column/etc.


I'll probably do the same thing for 720p/1080i via component by hooking up one of my "STB" ATSC receivers, as all I've used 720p/1080i with on the sony are internal tuner and memory stick. The 720p/1080i V5/V6 specific settings are therefore likely still at factory defaults. If there were internal test patterns that use HDMI input, perhaps I could do the same thing for settings specific to "HDMI" as well. As someday, it's likely I'll be using something via HDMI I'd think, and I think it would just be nice to have as much "work" as possible already done.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am wondering if there is anything that may be useful for reducing sharpening effects of "high contrast" boundaries.



Oh, yes! As I mentioned, that is what the "limiting" parameters are all about. Just set up sharpening effects for good, low-contrast textures, and then try stepping the appropriate limiter parameter down from 3.



> Quote:
> Also, If I ever get around to it, I might check out DYCO, DYCG, DCCO, DCGA, YHCO, and YHCG a bit, as I do still use analog OTA via RF and SD via Dish network receiver+S-VHS deck via svideo. Just in case I might find some small changes beneficial.



I use them, too, but demand a lot less from those sources. I will be interested to hear about anything you discover. (In fact, if we keep this up, I fear there will be only 3-4 of us ever reading this thread! Oh, well . . . after we're dead and gone, the written legacy of our exploration and sacrifice will live on on some storage device. ;-) )


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I noticed that I could imagine it's possible that "vastly different settings" for CBGN~YGN might significantly effect what you'd need for CBOF/CROF.



. . . except that the "GN" parameters are specifically *gain* or level controls, affecting colors in the whole brightness range, and the "OF" parameters are for offset, affecting mainly the darkest tones. Color offset misadjustment really screws up grayscale!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Certianly -- looking at "black" with color all the way up, I could see the difference if I lowered CROF from the factory default of "47" for 1080i to say "44" - Even though I thought "44" looked like the best value, I couldn't really tell for sure by "eyeballing it" whether "44" or "47" was the better setting, so I left it at default(47).
> 
> 
> Also note that even if I set CBOF/CROF to 31/31 for 1080i - I wouldn't say I am really seeing much color contamination -- but, those at 31/31 with use of a "pure"(hopefully anyway) black screen there is a very, very slight amount of it, and it is on the "green" side of things.



I once thought that the "black" the station broadcast between program and commercial -- or what surrounded a 4:3 commercial, or what I saw when I had punched in a digital station but it hadn't given me a picture yet -- was a ture black, but now I'm not so sure. Sony's service instructions are to input a grayscale from a HD signal generator (yah, like we all have one of those!), and make sure the grayscale is without color shift throughout the brightness range. When I finally saw PBS broadcasting some really neutral B/W video on HD, I immediately invoked service mode and cranked Color to max to see if I could improve on previous settings for 2170P-1/CBOF and CROF.


I could and did! The B/W video I now encounter routinely in HD commercials and programming is truly neutral, and -- guess what -- some of those "black" backgrounds are slightly tinted. Hmpf! So much for assumptions!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd mentioned something about this earlier -- I found it does work to put up 480p ATSC internal QM test pattern to adjust your image processing settings and P2170-4 GAMM/BLK/etc. per pic mode. While you can't change pic modes with the QM test pattern up, it uses whatever pic mode you were using before you went into QM and put up the test pattern.



This is very good advice. I recently completely recalibrated my set's color for all signals by using these patterns, in partucular revisiting the settings for 2170P-4/RYR~GYB and reestablishing correct color levels with 2170P-4/SCOL.


Of particular value is pattern #6 in each series (06, 26, 46, etc.). When viewed in blue-only (2170P-2/RGBS = 1), the top and bottom halves of this pattern should be exactly the same brightness so you can hardly see the boundary between them. Since one or two fo the SCOL settings are commpn to inputs that may differ in color intensity (HD, memory stick, [email protected], for example), those inputs have to be balanced against each other elsewhere, say in 2170P-3/UCOL. I also used calibration DVDs to confirm some inputs.


Result: Better color balance among the inputs, my alleged "blue push" is gone (I sorta miss it...), and some broadcast SD less garish. Amazing what a little tinkering will do. Some other chap has complained about a "green push" and "too-saturated" color even after calibration. I wonder if thorough attention to those internal patterns to "tune" the set internally may help. Small errors in GYR and GYB setup add up to noticable green push.


So now RYR~GYB are 14-15-6-4.


In the CXA2171 group, I could not find anything wrong with my CBGN~YGN controls as they were -- but they're not set to the chart defaults, either. More like 6-6-6 for HDMI instead of 3-3-3. I'll bet that as long as these three parameters are identical, you won't see any change except to the whole picture's contrast (white-brightness).


----------



## KenTech

*Correction:* In my post #707 I mentioned changing 2103-1 #16/SSMD to 3 from the default of 0.


I now think this change is superfluous. This timing parameter is called "slice level" in some documents, and I thought I had once seen an improvement in picture quality (AVIA 200TVL resolution test pattern) when it was changed from 0 to 3. I now can't see any difference, though 1 and 2 are horrible. Setting 0 is the "auto" setting, and I think I'll leave it there.


So ... regarding changing SSMD to 3: Never mind!


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh, yes! As I mentioned, that is what the "limiting" parameters are all about. Just set up sharpening effects for good, low-contrast textures, and then try stepping the appropriate limiter parameter down from 3.



Thanks, that brought it together for me. I think I may need to experiment a bit more with some slightly different values for the other MID5 settings we are using(such as MHYL~MHYO) first before looking elsewhere.


Probably have to do that "clear out the MID5 column thing", to make a few more columns available for that first. I'm trying to get "everything else" (which all mostly involve minor "little" things, or things of little "current" importnance there is just a lot of them I want to get "out of the way") taken care of before trying much "fine tuning" of your latest image processing recommendations, or trying further experimentation with it. So, it might be a while.


I think I do recall messing with MHYR (and everything else in MID5) a little bit many months ago when experiementing with various programming from 480p DVD, which in my case required a little more "sharpening" than your "old" MID5 column #60 or #61 column recommendations. That experiment Included adjusting most other MID5 settings for maximum sharpening effect(but not doing much in 2170P-3 and with SYSM=3), then "backing off on things" I didn't like as much as possible. I ended up also not liking anything but "0" from MHYR, but maybe I should try revisiting it.


What I seem to want to try improving doesn't seem to involve VM, as, this little "thing" I may be seeing is there with VM turned Off as well. It's probably more just of me seeing things after having gotten used to the "old" settings, and/or something along the lines of needing to fine tune MYHE/MYHO and MVYL/MVYE a bit for different sources. As again, the more I look at the set with the "new" image processing settings, the more I like them -- in every way.


Hard to explain, but what I think I want to do is - given use of your "new" (Post #707/etc.) image processing setting recommendations --- along the lines as you put it for "limiting" -- I want to keep the "enhanced sharpness of fine textures, just as they are, but lay off a little more obvious bright edges and boundaries". As, everywhere else it's just beautiful, just in certian circumstances - not necessarily in a "input/scan rate/source specific sense---- I seem to be seeing a bit of something I don't like concerning "bright edges" and boundries ... Instead of going into more detail on it now, probably best need to wait to see what I find out with fine tuning of MID5 columns/etc, as I'm thinking that might do the trick.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> . . . except that the "GN" parameters are specifically *gain* or level controls, affecting colors in the whole brightness range, and the "OF" parameters are for offset, affecting mainly the darkest tones. Color offset misadjustment really screws up grayscale!



I'm certianly not disagreeing with that. Just reporting my observations and experiences.


In my case I did do quite a bit of cycling through inputs with color at "0" after changing CBGN/CRGN from default of 4-5 to 6-6 - and I'm still getting pure "Black+White" so to speak. If there were any differences in greyscale between different sources/etc/ before, (which if any - MAYBE involved the very, very slightest bit of pink/red contamination at 480p/1080i - but if that was there before it was probably just more my imaginiation), there's less difference now. and, It seems very easy to spot little differences with greyscale with color at "0" when changing between a analog station from RF input on channel 12, to the PSIP remapped channel 12.1 with the same programming, but upconverted.


Maybe I'm wrong Ken, but I think slightly modifying CBGN/CRGN from "4-5" to "6-6"was a good thing for my set. I've certianly noticed the improvement, but have yet to see any problems with it. Maybe I'll find something later on though that indicates "4-5" is better, If so I'll post about it. And Again, I don't expect that will be the case for everyone, perhaps especially if your factory defaults for those values(and perhaps YGN as well) are the same.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> once thought that the "black" the station broadcast between program and commercial -- or what surrounded a 4:3 commercial, or what I saw when I had punched in a digital station but it hadn't given me a picture yet -- was a ture black, but now I'm not so sure. Sony's service instructions are to input a grayscale from a HD signal generator (yah, like we all have one of those!), and make sure the grayscale is without color shift throughout the brightness range. When I finally saw PBS broadcasting some really neutral B/W video on HD, I immediately invoked service mode and cranked Color to max to see if I could improve on previous settings for 2170P-1/CBOF and CROF.
> 
> 
> I could and did! The B/W video I now encounter routinely in HD commercials and programming is truly neutral, and -- guess what -- some of those "black" backgrounds are slightly tinted. Hmpf! So much for assumptions!



Here's another one. I receive Local ATSC/ HD stations from 2 different markets. One CBS HD station has a very slight, greenish tint to it - most noticable in shadows - such as say a dark scene involving actor wearing a dark suit. It's the only station out of 15 local ATSC stations I receive that seems to have this sort of issue. It's especially noticable when I compare it to CBS HD station from another market, where that greenish tint isn't there, even in the same scene. It's there on the Sony, on all other displays I own, it's there if I output 16x9 NTSC video at 480i+record to SVHS - especially noticable if I record portions of the same program from both stations. Now, since it's a very very slight thing -- seems that either I'm seeing things, Or noone else who posts on my local thread has noticed it yet ... LOL ...


Given the 1080i assumed "black screen" from the station I'm referring to, and the default values, Neutral grey is exactly what I get throughout the entire brightness range, even with color turned all the way up.


So, what are the chances I'd get that neutral grey throughout brightness range if it WEREN'T black, and CBOF/CROF weren't set correctly(or close)? In other words, How does it "just so happen" that if it isn't "black", It nevertheless, Just so happens to perfectly match my CBOF/CROF factory defaults? And, as another example I'm seeing the same thing you are for B/W video in HD commercials.


I agree with you about "assumptions" - we all remember that old saying -- but sometimes I think one can make good, reasonably educated "assumptions", "bets" or guesses, and sometimes, with this sort of thing it is all one has to go on, and we just do our best.


Anyhow, I will certianly recheck CBOF/CROF as possible when "good" B&W content is available(and I have had the oppurtunity to check it with B&W from PBS HD channel) ... but, at this point If there is any "color contamination" of blacks or shadows/etc. going on because of CBOF/CROF settings, I can't see it. And that's what is important to me, anyway.


Also, to "start off" with - at least with my ability to "eyeball it" I've got the same "B&W" with greyscale with color at "0"(as best my eyes can tell anyway) among all inputs/sources. And again, I have also run into the SAME issues you have had with this, and adjusting it's R+B offsets(they also don't effect Greyscale/btw) worked perfectly -- just on another set/model from a different manufacturer, Not this one.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'll bet that as long as these three parameters are identical, you won't see any change except to the whole picture's contrast (white-brightness).



Didn't try it that way to see what happened, but that makes sense to me.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Of particular value is pattern #6 in each series (06, 26, 46, etc.). When viewed in blue-only (2170P-2/RGBS = 1), the top and bottom halves of this pattern should be exactly the same brightness so you can hardly see the boundary between them.



Never thought of that! Thanks for pointing that one out -- You're right, that is an excellent pattern for Blue only gun. And I thought I was Done with "color" ...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So ... regarding changing SSMD to 3: Never mind!



Thanks for the update. FWIW, I didn't notice a difference between 0+3 when I changed it, except If I recall correctly the pic shifted a bit to the right(I think) when I was moving from "0 to 3".


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'll bet that as long as these three parameters are identical, you won't see any change except to the whole picture's contrast (white-brightness).



A update on this. I've confirmed the above appears to be the case - albeit via a bit of an "odd" happenstance.


One of the "little" things on my list to do was to go back and center the "Picture" slider at 31. Although I had done that long ago for the user menu slider for "brightness=31" slider with SBRT+ 2170P-3 UBOF for the various inputs/scan rates /etc - --- and had also long ago already "balanced out" Contrast from different sources(to best of my ability to do so anyway -- getting the "RF" input "just right" seems especially difficult, for instance, and the way it was, **** for 720p/1080i really needed to be about "-1") using P2170-4 ****, and for RF+CV/YC, 2103-1 SCON(for twinview/index its in 2103-2) :


Back When looking at Greyscale and setting white balance/etc., I'd just ended up with a Picture=24 (or 25) setting, and left it at that, for one of those "little things" to go back and "center" Picture control, later - probably with P2170-4 "SPIO".


Ok, so last night I went to do that So I could get Picture slider up to 31. And notice my factory defaults for "SPIO/SCLO/SHUO are : 10-6-7. My **** settings ranged from "0 to 4". From the factory it was funny as the scan rates inputs that actually need the LOWER **** settings were set for HIGHER settings instead! for instance, factory **** was "7" for 1080i, and "4" for RF .... THAT definitely seemed a little backwards, to say the least.


So, I end up with "SPIO=7" instead of factory default of 10. Then, putting DVE color bars up via 480i component/DVD, I notice, strangely enough that that caused my "color" settings to change a bit, leaving blue a bit undersaturated ... This was easily fixed by adjusting "SCLO=7", bumping it up from the default of "6". Now I have SPIO~SHUO = "7-7-7", and SPIO still may need to be lowered a bit more - not only to give me the "right" White balance with Picture=31, but also depending upon what it ends up doing to color, might be better to lower SPIO more so I can raise **** a bit, since I have some of those values at "0", and I really might need a "-1" for 720p/1080i HD. Notice it does indicate SPIO at "4" in service code listing, and perhaps SPIO at "4" might be a good spot for me.


HOWEVER -- now here comes the mildly interesting part. As I noted, Lowering SPIO from factory default of "10" to "7" also effected Color balance slightly. I really wasn't expecting that. But, no big deal, raised "SCLO" one notch and that took care of that for everything EXCEPT 480p/720p/1080i --- Hmm seems familiar ... SO, I revisit CBGN~YGN again. What do you know -- CBGN~YGN values of "5-5-5" work best with SPIO=7, instead of, with factory default of SPIO=10 and CBGN~YGN 6-6-5(factory values 4-5-5) for achieving color balance for 480p/720p/1080i that "matches" what I get with the same RYR~GYB values from other inputs ....


So, considering that, now that I have the values for CBGN~YGN being all the same, and considering that "****=0" for 1080i/720p really needs to be more like "****=-1" in order to balance contrast among sources ..... I think - well -- why not Lower CBGN~YGN to 4-4-4 , and see what I need to do for "****" for 480p and 1080i? --- At least without spending a lot of time looking at it -- This seems to be working quite well, and this is what I ended up with for the new **** settings(note only needed to change the 480p and 720p/1080i settings) : 720p/1080i(and everything else except 480p) - **** = 4. 480p **** = 9 ......


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok, so last night I went to do that So I could get Picture slider up to 31. And notice my factory defaults for "SPIO/SCLO/SHUO are : 10-6-7.



Interesting how we have skinned this cat in different ways. I was very disappointed early-on in my contrast and black-level settings. I fixed black level (Brightness = 31) with a combination of SBRT (now about 30; was 16!) and the three 2170P-1/_CUT settings. But back then I hadn't figured out the sub-settings of SPIO-SHUO, and so I merely upped the _DRV settings until I had a picture that, at Picture = 31, has the contrast I expected. It has been that way since last spring, and so I haven't been tempted to mess with the offsets you have tinkered with.


Just goes to show how many of these settings have the sane effect in the video chain. They are distinguished mostly by scope: In 2170P-3, they're arranged by input class *and* video; 2170P-4/SPIO~SHUO are global (one setting for all); 2170P-4/****~SHUE are per internal signal-path; 2170-1/YOF~CROF are by video and input class. And so forth. Hard to keep straight for non-wireheads!


I am thinking of creating a chart or two showing *related* settings in their various locations so one can record changes easily instead of notating one of Sony's charts. This is what I did with the image-processing settings in the chart attached to #707. But the gross parameters of color, black level, and grayscale could use the same treatment. I'm weary of scribbling tiny little numbers and dates on the Sony charts!


----------



## OmniBeast

This is defenitely a newb question but, all these different settings and numbers that are being talked about here, is this what an isf trained service tech. would adjust in order to make the TV look better?


----------



## Jediphish

Yesterday while my D* was tuned to one of the XM Channels, which display either a black or grey solid screen (depending your user settings - mine are at grey so I can easily distinguish the sidebars created by my HR10-250 from those transmitted by an HD channel, which are black 99% of the time) . . . Anyway, while the grey screen was displayed on my 30xs955, I notice three very faint, single pixel height, horizontal black lines running from edge to edge. The first one is about 1/8 - 1/4 from the top. The next one is about 2/3 from the top, and the last one is about 1/4 from the bottom. I have to stand at couple of feet from the screen to see them. I changed to a channel displaying an actual image and noticed the lines were still there, although not as detectable on a non-uniform image.


These could have been there since the day I turned my set on the first time and I just never noticed. Anyone know what this is about? Is it the aperture grill/mask? Is it a defect? Is it something I did while changing user menus? It's not a big deal, but now that I know it's there, I think I'm going to fixate on it.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> so I merely upped the _DRV settings until I had a picture that, at Picture = 31, has the contrast I expected.



With my set, and the factory default of "SPIO-10", I would have had to lower the DRV settings for Picture slider=31, and they're already at midrange(Both RDRV/RCUT at 32, and that was the factory value) - That's even if I set "****" to 0 for the source(s) with highest contrast.


Here are the default DRV~CUT values which correspond to the default values for "warm" offset on my set(the actual warm offset values were same as in service code listing) :


32-17-9-32-17-5


Using that, and from looking at "clouds"/etc(sorry I can't offer anything more definitive than that+"eyeballing it"), after balancing contrast with ****+2103-1 SCON(for RF+CV/YC)/etc -- a picture slider setting of "24~25" ended up being just right, given the factory "SPIO=10" value. Also, Higher than 25(and even 25 sometimes), and my eyes easily get fatigued after a bit of viewing.


So, Factory "warm Offset" seemed awfully close to 6500K, except that it was more "greenscale" than greyscale. Only really worked if I was looking at clouds that had a "green" hue to them(and that does happen sometimes) .... So, I went about getting rid of that bit of greenish tint to the greyscale, and these are the values I now have set up for RDRV~BUT for Neutral - 32-16-7-32-17-9, which is what I use. I have modified the "warm offset" values so "warm" is as it was from the factory, for reference. I haven't really found much of a actual use for "cool" yet, although I did use it while finding the best values for "neutral".


I have SBRT=28, which was the factory default. But, the only reason why I don't have it at say "31" is because my DVD player needs SBRT=28 with P2170-3 UBOF=0. Everything else I have at UBOF=3~5.


So, in my case it looks like lowering SPIO=4 is going to be my "answer" for getting picture slider up to 31. Interestingly enough, SPIO=4 is the default listing in the service codes. Also, interestingly enough, I haven't checked this thoroughly yet, but from what I've seen so far it looks like that with SPIO=4, many other values(such as SCLO, SHUO, CBGN~YGN, **** and 2103-1 SCON for RF+CV+YC) will also end up needing to be very close, if not exactly the same as is shown in the service code listing .....


Given that you did need to redefine higher _DRV values, and I think I'd read previoulsy that your "SPIO=7" --- Could our CRT's really be that "different", or perhaps is it more likely could it be the HV adjustment on the flyback transformer on your set is set a little differently than mine(which perhaps could also explain why we are getting different results for CBOF/CROF from the factory defaults) ?




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is it the aperture grill/mask?



It sounds like you are seeing the wires that hold the aperture grill in place. We all can see them from a very close distance(within a foot or two) with these AG sets, most noticable perhaps with uniform grey or white screen.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is it a defect?



No, If you are seeing what I think you are, that's just the way it is. You shouldn't see it from more than a couple feet or so away.


----------



## skersh

Ken,


Thanks as well for all of your posts and very helpful (and detailed) information. I have a question. I have a 960 that has a picture that seems to be shifted too far to the left. Here's what I mean. While watching the U2 concert tonight on HDNet, the only part of the HDNet logo that I could see on my screen was "HDNe"

What service codes would work in shifting the picture to the right? I have read roughly 10 pages of this thread and am either too stupid to discern which codes would work or I might have missed it. Could you help me?


P.S. I have already downloaded the 960 service manual that you provided. Thanks!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OmniBeast* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is defenitely a newb question but, all these different settings and numbers that are being talked about here, is this what an isf trained service tech. would adjust in order to make the TV look better?



I believe the answer is "It depends on the tech." From what I have read, it appears that some techs are informed and motivated enough to add some of the adjustments mentioned here to their normal work. (I recall a fellow from Ohio posted in this forum that he was quite impressed in this way with the guy he hired.)


However, I can't imagine every ISF tech having the depth of knowledge about all of the different brand's and model's service-mode settings that they can just waltz into your home and dive right in, as we discuss here, especially in balancing the myriad settings against each other. Further, such practitioners will differ widely in their intelligence, diligence, and discipline. (Best get a referral from a pleased, discriminating customer.) Investing $10,000+ in exotic instruments does not guarantee competence or diligence, ISF "training" notwithstanding.


One basic argument for learning about your own TV and doing it yourself is that you are learning about only *one* TV, in depth, depending on how much of a wirehead you are. When, say, the color adjustments drift off a bit, as they are likely to do over a year, you can go back in and tweak it for a service charge of $0! Further, nothing I have read indicates that ISF techs get into the nitty-gritty of image processing, as we have in this thread. (See post #707.)


The personal-satisfaction issue is best discussed in another thread, but I don't what there is to debate. One can either be proud of their own accomplishment in calibrating their own TV (I am!), or one can hire someone else to do it for them and miss out. That goes for a lot of different tasks. I am a fearless, curious wirehead, and so this course of action has been natural for me and will be for many others who read this thread and are willing to rev up their courage a bit.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *skersh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What service codes would work in shifting the picture to the right? I have read roughly 10 pages of this thread and am either too stupid to discern which codes would work or I might have missed it.



Don't beat up on yourself! It takes heroic persistence to find specific instructions in this thread.


The *raster* is the entire pattern scanned by the electron beam, including the garbage at the edges. Be sure to write down your original settings as you make changes.


The strategy is to (1) center the raster on the tube. See manual section 2-8. Set 2170D-3/HBLK to 0 to disable blanking of the edges. Set 2170D-2/AGNG = 2 to temporarily shrink the raster so you can see the edges and lower HSIZ if it needs more shrinking. Then adjust HCNT to center the raster horizontally on the tube. Restore AGNG, HBLK, and HSIZ to their former values.


Now (2) use 2170D-2/HPOS to center the *picture.* Use a standard test pattern from one of the DVDs, like AVIA or DVE. Finally you can use 2170D-2/HSIZ to reduce the amount lost at the edges (overscan). The illustrations in the manual, section 2-9.1 show the different adjustments.


2170D-1/VPOS and VSIZ center and adjust height of the pattern. There may be some subtleties in adjusting your 16:9 set that I can't address, having a 4:3 set, but these are the basics.


PLEASE READ the early first couple of articles in this thread for the methods and cautions about using service mode!


----------



## skersh

Ken,


Will do. Thanks for the advice and the help. My TV is still under warranty and I've contacted our local Sony warranty electronics store about fixing it, but the tech I've talked to has the personality of "Oscar the Grouch" from Sesame Street! He set up a time to come and pick up the set, then never showed up! Everytime I've spoken to the guy, he sounds like I'm bothering the living crap out of him and that he'd rather not be working at all. Unfortunately, Sony has told me that they don't have another warranty service technician in Amarillo. So, I found this thread and have decided to make the adjustment myself, if possible. I've also had my analog sound go out on the TV (via the analog out jacks in the back) and am using the "monitor sound out" jacks instead. I was going to have the tech work on those too. The tech did mention that the analog sound card may have gone out on those jacks and needs to be replaced. The digital sound (via coax and optical) works just fine...and obviously, so does the analog monitor out jacks. I didn't have this many problems with my old KD-34XBR2, but I guess every set is different and I sure wouldn't trade this 960 for anything. I absolutely love the picture.


Thanks again!


Steve Kersh


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ............... I recently completely recalibrated my set's color for all signals by using these patterns, in partucular revisiting the settings for 2170P-4/RYR~GYB and reestablishing correct color levels with 2170P-4/SCOL.
> 
> 
> Of particular value is pattern #6 in each series (06, 26, 46, etc.). When viewed in blue-only (2170P-2/RGBS = 1), the top and bottom halves of this pattern should be exactly the same brightness so you can hardly see the boundary between them. Since one or two fo the SCOL settings are commpn to inputs that may differ in color intensity (HD, memory stick, [email protected], for example), those inputs have to be balanced against each other elsewhere, say in 2170P-3/UCOL. I also used calibration DVDs to confirm some inputs.
> 
> 
> Result: Better color balance among the inputs, my alleged "blue push" is gone (I sorta miss it...), and some broadcast SD less garish. Amazing what a little tinkering will do. Some other chap has complained about a "green push" and "too-saturated" color even after calibration. I wonder if thorough attention to those internal patterns to "tune" the set internally may help. Small errors in GYR and GYB setup add up to noticable green push.
> 
> 
> So now RYR~GYB are 14-15-6-4.
> 
> 
> In the CXA2171 group, I could not find anything wrong with my CBGN~YGN controls as they were -- but they're not set to the chart defaults, either. More like 6-6-6 for HDMI instead of 3-3-3. I'll bet that as long as these three parameters are identical, you won't see any change except to the whole picture's contrast (white-brightness).



I went through this procedure while utilizing the #6 series of QM pattern with Blue gun last night/etc., and came up with the same, or nearly the same RYR~GYB as you did - at least for best results with 720p or 1080i -- either RYR~GYB = 14-15-6-4 or 14-14-6-4. Was Hard to say with any certianity which one was better.


On my set, at 720p/1080i+adjusting SCOL as necessary with CBGN~YGN at 5-4-4, and RYR~GYB at 14-15-6-4 resulted in as close to perfect color balance/color decoding as I could imagine using the QM #4+#6 series of patterns and turning on the guns individually, as well as color bars at 1080i from memory stick. However, that didn't quite work as perfectly for 480p ATSC internal pattern - Which unfortunetly in my case needs a SCOL value that is -1 from what 720p/1080i needs for the same results and, SCOL doesn't appear to allow different values for 480p ATSC vs 720p/1080i ATSC.


So, If I ever get a 480p signal of importance from ATSC tuner, and If want as perfect as possible color for both 480p and 720p/1080i ATSC, I'd have to reduce SCOL for ATSC 480p/720p/1080i, and increase P2170-3 UCOF value for 720p/1080i. Luckily, 480p via component V5/V6 allows a seperate SCOL value, and according to color test patterns via DVD SCOL also needs to be -1 as compared to 480i via component. Have a good feeling however that I'll also probably need to balance V5/V6 with UCOF If I ever hook anything up to the component input that uses 720p/1080i. It would probably be better to go ahead+do the "UCOF thing" now for ATSC tuner 480p vs 720p/1080i .. I've just liked the convienience of having UCOF/UHFO=0 for everything .... oh well ....


Also, noticed that with test patterns via DVD at 480i or 480p via component or S-Video - after using pattern #6 at 480i(which, along with everything else except 480p needs the same SCOL value as 1080i) -- I still need RYR~GYB at 13-15-5-3 for best results.


Right now, after trying numerous slightly different "settings" my compromise is to set CBGN~YGN at 4-4-4, increase SCOL for 480p/720p/1080i ATSC an additional +1, and use RYR~GYB 13-15-6-4 for input from the internal tuner or MS, while using RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 for everything else. Except for 480p ATSC, This is still "very" close to being "right on the money", and I have to really, really look closely to see the difference between RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 and 13-15-6-4 where I'm using it. If I ever get a 480p ATSC signal however, this "compromise" does not favor accuracy for 480p ATSC color.


The other compromise - which appears to be the best "all around" solution is to use CBGN~YGN at 4-4-4, but not increase SCOL for 480/720p/1080i ATSC the additional +1 as required for my other "compromise" option mentioned above. This also happens to be the best solution for best results for both 480p and 720p/1080i ATSC AND also produces the best results of anything I can find for using 720p/1080i with RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 - Which makes it appear to be the best "all around" compromise, and still seems to offer very good color balance(just not quite as good as the other two "options" I've found) for 720p/1080i.


I tried other various "combinations" of values, including for instance CBGN~YGN at the set default (4-5-5) as well as even trying slightly different values with SCOL/SHUE -- But, in my case the 3 different possible options described above worked better than anything else I could find. At this point, I haven't decided which of the 3 above described options I'm going to use "permanently".


BTW - I did manage to forget a couple of times to turn "MTRX=0" for 480p and MTRX=1 to 1080i/720p when checking this and making slight adjustjments, which resulted in a bit of cursing on my part, LOL -- Another interesting thing -- The "right"(but not the left) "Twin view" window -- which is allways going to be either from from RF NTSC tuner or from YV/VC --- is ALSO effected by "MTRX" strangely enough -- must be because when you use "twin-view" you're actually using 1080i full mode ....



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...............
> 
> PLEASE READ the early first couple of articles in this thread for the methods and cautions about using service mode!



Speaking of which -- couple of hopefully helpful add'l items about working in SM I've noticed :


#1). When switching inputs or picture modes and checking values for specific settings -- at least on my set - I notice that sometimes the info isn't allways updated "quickly enough" to reflect the actual value which is there. For instance ... I have "twin-view" "vivid" pic mode P2170-3 MIDE=59, for "twin-view" pro pic mode, MIDE-53. But, sometimes, when I'm looking at the value for MIDE, switching Pic modes it may still "show" "53" when I select "vivid" picture mode for a short amount of time. So, Sometimes, when switching pic modes/etc -- you might even have to use the #1 and #4 buttons on the remote to go down or up then back to see what the "actual" value you are interested actually is.


#2). I do wonder if this one has happened to anyone else --- On my set -- Inexplicably -- without any adjusting on my part as if there was a "ghost" in my set -- Value for 2170D-1 "ASPW" for one of the various screen modes have inexplicably "changed" on their own while I was in SM and "changing channels" or changing the screen mode. This has occured even if I wasn't changing any values and was doing nothing besides "looking", and also even if I wasn't looking at any of the values in 2170-D1 at the time. One time it happened I noted I was switching channels when a value from 2170P1 was showing on screen.


It's happened about 3 or 4 times, the first 2 occurances, I thought I was losing my mind as I didn't notice it until a day or so after I had last been in SM. Then, the next time, I happened to "see it" happen when it occured while I was switching channels or screen modes. Now, after having experienced this, after finishing a "session", I allways power set back up and make sure aspect ratio is correct on all of the various screen modes.(HDzoom, "zoom", Normal, Full,/etc).


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> #1). When switching inputs or picture modes and checking values for specific settings -- at least on my set - I notice that sometimes the info isn't allways updated "quickly enough" to reflect the actual value which is there.



I have had the same experience. Further, exactly when one has to WRITE the settings varies depending on the particular code. In MID5, for example, if you make changes to a particular column, then change columns for even a moment, the settings revert. I have gotten into the habit of writing settings very soon after I change them. I am sure that some of the settings that have mysteriously "reverted" to their old settings were just not written in time.


> Quote:
> #2). I do wonder if this one has happened to anyone else --- On my set -- Inexplicably -- without any adjusting on my part as if there was a "ghost" in my set -- Value for 2170D-1 "ASPW" for one of the various screen modes have inexplicably "changed" on their own while I was in SM and "changing channels" or changing the screen mode.



I have not experienced this. ASPW is critical to the height of 16:9 HD and 16:9 960i display of anamorphic 480i DVDs on my 4:3 set, and I think I would have noticed something. Can't say what might be causing this.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kentech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> PLEASE READ the early first couple of articles in this thread for the methods and cautions about using service mode!



I have to add here that I think the biggest fast-fingers goof one can make is to forget that *you cannot change channels with the number-keypad in service mode,* but are stuck with the channel up/down buttons. Fortunately, it takes a three-key combination to really screw things up. I have absent-mindedly pushed number buttons, trying to tune a cable channel with the keypad, only to look up and see the dreaded word RESET on-screen. At that point, one must *do nothing,* and the mode will revert by itself to SERVICE in a few seconds. Lesson: Avoid at all costs impatiently pressing number buttons for any reason. Look up at the screen. If you ever see anything besides SERVICE, WRITE, or READ, you've screwed up and have to wait for it to go back to SERVICE before proceeding. It's also easy for the thumb to accidentally drift down to the third row of buttons when you have been rapidly cycling up and down thru the codes, groups, and values.

*You must avoid the drastic RESET sequences of 7 - 9 - ENTER and 7 - JUMP - ENTER*, unless you understand the huge consequences and really intend this!


Y'know, one could make a case for fashioning a little clip-on or tape-on cover for that bottom row of buttons, as insurance when fooling around in service mode. Even if all it did was make them *feel different* from the top two rows, it would alert you to an out-of-position thumb.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *skersh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My TV is still under warranty and I've contacted our local Sony warranty electronics store about fixing it, but the tech I've talked to has the personality of "Oscar the Grouch" from Sesame Street!



For the posh XBR960, you should expect that a tech will come to your house and fix a few settings under warranty. They do not have to drag the thing into the shop, sheesh!


I have read here that the least successful method is to call the Sony Service 800-number for a referral. Rather, go to a reputable dealer for your set (maybe the one you bought from) to get an "inside" recommendation as to who does good repair on these sets. Then call them and ask them to make a couple of screen adjustments under warranty -- they're paid for this, after all. Worked for me! Just before the 3-month service warranty ran out, I called a highly recommended authorized service shop quite a ways away, and they sent a guy out who made some important adjustments with magnets I wouldn't have attempted -- and with a smile.


----------



## JeffD2.

As a noob to service menu tweaks I want to thank all the SM experts here. I've lurked here for over a year or a so posting occasionally but never had the courage to attempt tweaks for fear of disaster. ADU's recent advice about disabling 16:9 auto detect finally made me do it.


Now I'm correcting geometry/position issues (BTW not related to the JUMP setting) and plan on doing much more, but SLOOWWWLY and carefully. Now that I've actually seen the service menu, a lot of the posts in this thread don't seem so cryptic.


I have a writtten/digital record of every change made.


To all the other noobs- READ THE PRECAUTIONS AND INSTRUCTIONS ON PAGE ONE OF THIS THREAD. It can be done, take your time, and know a way out.


Thanks again to the experts!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JeffD2.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To all the other noobs- READ THE PRECAUTIONS AND INSTRUCTIONS ON PAGE ONE OF THIS THREAD. It can be done, take your time, and know a way out.



Well, *that's* worth repeating:


READ THE PRECAUTIONS AND INSTRUCTIONS ON PAGE ONE OF THIS THREAD. It can be done, take your time, and know a way out. [I like that "know a way out" part!]


----------



## ADU

JeffD2.


Glad the JUMP tip worked for you. The 2170D-1/APSW parameter that Nitewatchman brought up a couple posts ago might also possibly be worth a look in your situation. Not sure how this works on the 4:3 TVs, but if APSW is set to 1 for your expanded HD, changing it to 0 might reduce some vertical overscan on the picture. Be advised though that APSW is also _signal_ and _aspect ratio_ sensitive on my TV, like the other 2170D-1 controls mentioned in my previous post. And if it's already set to 0 for the expanded HD, then there's probably no point complicating things by messing with it.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The 2170D-1/APSW parameter that Nitewatchman brought up a couple posts ago might also possibly be worth a look in your situation.



An update/correction on this ... until I ran into an occurance of it again last night, but this time occuring with ASPT and "Widezoom" instead of "ASPW", I'd forgotten that APSW is not the only control where I've seen this odd behavior occur. This particular time it effected "Widezoom", and the value changed(I certianly didn't do it) for ASPT somehow to "52" from what it was set at "22" -- all on it's own, while I was "looking at" values in 2170P-4 controls. Now, note that ASPT=52 IS a value for settings I changed -- but only for "proper" aspect ratio to result for "Zoom" and "HD Zoom", which had ASPT=43 default values. And, ASPT=52 for "Zoom" and "HD Zoom" are the ONLY changes I made to the set defaults for 2170P-4 ASPT/ASPW or SCRL or Zoom.


If I recall correctly, I think I may have also had this odd behavior occur once with 2170D-1 "Zoom".


So, it perhaps appears that somehow, in certian circumstances when I'm switching channels or screen modes/etc from within SM, for each occurance effecting only one "screen mode" its perhaps reading the value for 2170D-1 ASPT/APSW or ZOOM from a column for screen mode/etc. right NEXT to it, and somehow using it instead --and making it stick until I change it back to the correct value ....


Again, This odd behavior involving certian Aspect ratio related settings "changing" on their own while I'm working in SM - Seems to be occuring when I'm switching channels(in my case among NTSC/ATSC off air sources - which are a mix of NTSC, 480i or 720p/1080i ), and/or screen modes with the "screen mode" button. I'm Switching channels with channel up/down button. Btw, another "roundablout way you can "switch" channels while in SM is via the user mode "hide/show" channel option. Although there have been occasions I've seen the change in Aspect ratio right when the change occured, I think I've also noticed that this odd behavior is not allways directly "noticable" when it occurs as apparently the issue could end up effecting "Full" for ASPW and 1080i even though you were using say, "Normal" screen mode and changing channels with the up/down buttons at the time of the occurance.


It's really very very odd, and I have no idea what would cause this to occur, as it wouldn't even *seem* like it should be possible. And, it has never happened "on it's own" outside of SM, thank goodness. Because of it, I have checked numerous values elsewhere several times and have never seen this occur elsewhere -- at this point at least I don't *think* anything besides a single value for only ONE of the columns for either 2170D-1 "Zoom", "ASPW" or "ASPT" is ever effected by this for each instance of its occurance - In other words, when it does happen, for each instance, only ONE of those controls, and only ONE screen mode(such as 480 normal, or 1080 full or "widezoom"/etc) is effected ... It just could be any ONE of them.


I have also noticed that at times when in SM, NTSC analog channels(although strong RF signals are actually present on those channels ) show up as just "snow" - especially if I'm just quickly changing channels --- that never happens outside of SM, and never happens inside SM with the ATSC tuner/signals ... And, I also noticed a couple of times(but not allways) when using the "QM" patterns, that afterwards - with ATSC off air channels only, the Screen turns "pink" until "something" gets "reset" - if nothing else, cycling power fixes this when it has occured.


I don't know if it is clear whether or not the post at following URL (and/or other posts from same poster from around this time) might indicate that this fellow may have experienced the same issue, but reading some of his posts from around that time, it seems at least posssible that this issue, "unknowingly" was effecting his set as well :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6068189


----------



## Nitewatchman

An update to previous posts concerning one of the "little things" on my list involving centering "Picture slider". Well, as it turns out, this turned out to be a "big thing"(and not really necessary, as I don't really care if the "picture" slider says "22" or "31", all I really care about is how it looks), and I've ended up going back to just using Picture slider at a lower value instead.


Upon further observation I found adjusting P2170P-4 : SPIO didn't really work for me -- From what I can tell, It doesn't appear to "map directly" to picture slider, as is the case with ****, and it appears to affect 'contrast'(and maybe gamma) in a different way than "****" or moving the picture slider. Since I can't detirmine for sure exactly what SPIO "does do", I've decided to return it to set default value of 10.


I also tried lowering P2170P-1 "DRV" values. While this almost "worked" well enough, it didn't work "enough" because(even with **** at "0" in some cases) I would have needed a BDRV value at just slightly less than "0", to get "picture=31" which, of course isn't possible.


So, unless there is another control(besides "****") in SM that allows for more "crude" adjustments to contrast than ****, and that maps directly to "picture slider" I'm not aware of, looks like I'd have to adjust the HV adjustment on Flyback transformer in order to be able to center picture at 31 properly -- and, I don't want to mess with that, as for just a couple of examples : 1). then, for example, I'd have to completely redefine the DRV_cut values, 2). I'm guessing I'd probably have to mess around more with the YOF/CBOF/CROF offsets, and 3) - most importantly -- there's really no reason to, since lowering Picture slider does the trick.


I did end up settling on values of picture slider of 21~23 rather than 24~25 I'd used previously, as I noticed 24~25 was still just a tad too fatiguing on the eyes. Also, I ended up going through balancing contrast from different sources/inputs again using ****/etc(the highest contrast source is now set with ****=0) - and I'm glad I did as I was never really satisfied with what I'd done on this previously.


One problem I have is that I don't spend a large amount of time watching this set, as it's more the main set the entire family uses. Therefore, it is more difficult for me to notice any small things that may be apparent when watching programming material that need to be changed. So, The past couple of nights I've worked in SM, I've been trying to concentrate more on also "watching" quite a bit of programming from various sources, and that helped me to realize I still needed to bring picture slider down a couple more notches, as well as do a better job balancing Contrast from different sources.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> . . . looks like I'd have to adjust the HV adjustment on Flyback transformer in order to be able to center picture at 31 properly -- and, I don't want to mess with that



The most important reason is that particular (actually Screen or G2) voltage is set with a voltmeter to a 170V specification, not by any visual criterion. See section 2-5 of the service manual. Thus, except to rescue a monitor that is dimming from old age, it's not a setting that should be "tweaked."


From my previous experience tweaking with this adjustment on computer monitors, it significantly changes the threshold at which the electron guns begin to activate, i.e. it would interact most strongly with _CUT and SBRT settings and would likely affect all three guns nearly alike.


----------



## ADU

Updating some of my earlier remarks re gamma and the CXA2151/2171 controls on pages 4-7 to try to better reflect the most recent info we have (hopefully in such a way that it reduces rather than adds to the confusion, while still maintaining some level of continuity in those earlier posts.)


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The most important reason is that particular (actually Screen or G2) voltage is set with a voltmeter to a 170V specification, not by any visual criterion. See section 2-5 of the service manual. Thus, except to rescue a monitor that is dimming from old age, it's not a setting that should be "tweaked."



Absolutely Ken. And I do have a VOM and the ability to do so, and have done this adjustment on other CRT's. Usually the control is even "labeled" "screen" ....


[update]: your right -- It should pretty much effect all 3 guns evenly, so - if say, it's perchance the case the current adjustment from the factory isn't correct and If Iwent about adjusting it to 170V, as I believe I mentioned I'd think chances are very good I'd likely need to redefine Greyscale (DRV/CUT) -- with lower or higher values, as well as you mention -- change SBRT value. Perhaps I didn't say that right .... I am likely very wrong about any possible effects on the CBOF/CROF part of it, don't know what I was thinking about, there. Just trying to find some sort of possibilities to look at for possible "answers" for differences we seem to be seeing in these sets.


[end update]


All I was trying to do, is, I was just trying to "get at" what might explain why my set seems "so bright". My purpose was certianly not to suggest the screen voltage control could be adjusted properly based on visual means, or that it should be "tweaked" so to speak.


I don't have the KD34XBR960's Service manual (just the XBR2 manual as posted), and since I didn't know the necessary voltage spec or anything that may be "model specific" about it, that's the main reason I decided not to post anything about actually properly performing the adjustment(or check).


It might be interesting to check it to see what it is set at. Perhaps if I need to take off the back of the set for another reason, I'll check it -- although, that is not as easy as it sounds given where the set is sitting/moving it to a safe place/etc. Even drilling the hole to access the focus pot with a screwdriver+checking/adjusting focus involved a bit of a contortionist act. BTW, Hard to say in an "exact way" - but, on my set if I did make any improvments adjusting the focus control it was extremely minor -- I also couldn't improve on the SM dynamic focus adjustments from the set defaults.


Anyway, if screen voltage IS set properly on my set, it just seems like to me my CRT just must be "especially bright" for some reason, or that there must be another "contrast" control in SM I'm not aware of which could be lowered.


In any case, perhaps needing picture slider in the 25% range actually does make sense for a "calibrated set", anyway


----------



## rbc009

I have a quick question for you guys. I owned a Panasonic 34" (forget the exact model) but it exploded on me twice. I traded it in for the Sony XS955 34" and just set it up this past week. I'm using DVI->HDMI from my HD receiver.


I find the picture quality is far worst on standard digital and some high-def programming. It seems to be more grainy in high-def and a tad.. blurry.. in standard channels.. (not sure if blurry is the right word..)


How could this be? I thought the Sony would have been much better than the Panasonic. Is it a matter of tweaking or am I doing something wrong?


Someone mentioned I should try tweaking the DRC on the set, but I dont believe the XS955 allows for manual tweaking of DRC.


Any input would be appreciated. Thanks!


Rob


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> it just seems like to me my CRT just must be "especially bright" for some reason, or that there must be another "contrast" control in SM I'm not aware of which could be lowered.



You would bring up "brightness" just as I'm trying to clean-up some of my earlier and perhaps somewhat ill-advised remarks on gamma, wouldn't you, Nitewatchman.










If the picture looks a bit overly bright and lacking in depth though, then gamma might be an issue to look into rather than the gain controls.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You would bring up "brightness" just as I'm trying to clean-up some of my earlier and perhaps somewhat ill-advised remarks on gamma, wouldn't you, Nitewatchman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the picture looks a bit overly bright and lacking in depth though, then gamma might (unfortunately) be the issue to look into rather than the gain controls.



Update: oops think I misread some of your comments a bit at first -- sorry!


Update2 : Oh -- BTW -- even before your current editing, back at the time, I actually found ALL of the discussions/posts from yourself and other posters quite useful in one way or another ...


Note that when I was talking about "brightness", I wasn't referring to what SBRT or "Brightness" control "does", or the gamma settings, or for 480p/720p/1080i, "YGN" -- I was referring to the overall appearance of "brightness" of the entire picture(inclduing from SD/Composite S-video sources) ... as it soley relates to the "picture" slider control in user menu-- I.e. "contrast" related.


My picture looks beautiful with Picture slider at 22~25, brightness slider at 31, SBRT=28. There's nothing washed out about it. From what I can tell --- and it is hard for me to "read" those charts from the "Gamma" charts from AVIA/etc, it's at about gamma ~2.4 with all the Gamma settings in 2170P-4 = 0 -"(pro mode defaults). Which is where I have it set for all pic modes except "movie".


I was only trying to #1)find a way to be able to center the picture slider - NOT that it's important that I do so except just to Have it "centered" at a nice round 31. As I explained, #1) I Can't seem to do that with ****, or with SPIO, or by redefining the DRV values - as I'd need less than "0" for instance for the "BDRV" setting, and #2). I thought it would be interesting to Get some sort of an idea why some folks are needing to raise DRV values on their sets to center their picture slider, when I'd have to lower mine beyond what is actually possible, since I can only go down to BDRV=0, and that's not quite "low" enough for Picture=31, even with ****=0 for highest "contrast" sources.


----------



## ncasebee

Well, I decided to look up a service center for my area via Sony's website. I got one result and paid for a delivery of my TV to the SONY AUTHORIZED service center. The Sony KV36HS500 got over there, and there was a 75$ up front fee. I paid it.


The problems were convergence, focus, and geometry. The real problem was blurry/fuzzy at the left and right middle edges. Anyways, the technician there told me the TV was inside specs and that Sony does not build Televisions to be under this type of scrutiny. My Television was inside of specifications and I have to just live with it. I tried to explain that I did make headway with my television via the service menu, but he didn't want to adjust anything for me. He felt that adjustments on this CRT direct view, would never achieve anything constructive. I am receiving the exact same television that I sent over.


It's disheartening. Are the things he told me true? Do I just have to live with the geometry problems and fuzziness at the left and right? I am so very frustrated.


I thought I could just pay for a service, and not have to worry about juggling all these darn service menu settings. There were other settings that would cap out before achieving the best convergence. I hoped that they could fix this. What do I do now? I want my Xbox 360 to look very very good. THE darn text on Kameo is fuzzy on the right and left compared to the middle.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ncasebee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> He felt that adjustments on this CRT direct view, would never achieve anything constructive.



All I can really say is that has not been my experience with Sony KD34XBR960.


I do think some of what he said is true -- but only to a certian degree ... For instance I think it is true "focus" on the screen edges is never going to be as good as in the center .... However, unless he checked it+tried to improve it, I don't see how he could say any "adjustments" wouldn't achieve improved results ....


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbc009* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a quick question for you guys.
> 
> Rob



I wish I had a good, quick answer for you 


I can quickly tell you that I had somewhat similar "thoughts" when I first turned on the sony set in comparision to other sets I have had - although certianly some of those have certianly had their problems as well, sometimes problems that couldn't be "fixed".


If anything, I've learned about this Sony set it is how *big* of an apparent difference small improvements can be - not allways visable "Right" when you change something, but after you have a chance to sit back and look at it/compare/etc. a bit. But, At the same time, I've also learned, given the complex nature of the SM and the MANY input+scan rate/pic mode specific settings/etc, how complex a task it can sometimes be to "track down" and properly implement and document(which is necessary) the "small improvments" you need to make. At times, quite a bit of time, effort and experimenting have been in order.


With my particular set, although I've made other "adjustments" as well -- probably the biggest improvements resulted from slightly modifying DRV~CUT values for "better" greyscale, using Dynamic convergence adjustments available in SM to solve a problem with convergence issues on far left and right side of screen(moreso left than right) visable on vertical lines in crosshatch pattern -- and -- saving the best for last -- utilizing Ken Tech's findings concerning "image processing" settings - and especially so where his latest findings are concerned.


----------



## ncasebee

I'm just frustrated about my expierence with this technician. A Sony Authorized Service Center, and they can't even tweak ONE setting for $75. Frustrating. There were also vertical convergence error, but he didn't want to use magnets because he says it's just not worth it. Huh. I wish they could have made my tv at least look somewhat better.


Anyway, it's a combination of focus and convergence error, so I might just try tweaking again. I just don't like doing it very much. The juggling act of settings makes me feel like I'm never getting anywhere.


----------



## bigkev4123

I was wondering if any of you guys could help me out with something. i have a kd30xs955, and i was messing around with the picture settings, like mpin, pin, ucp, lcp,ppha, lang, vang, vbow, lbow, and for some reason the lines are a little off and I cant seem to get them right. Is there any way I could reset them to the original numbers, or if someone could give me their numbers and I could go from there. I wrote all the original numbers down but i must have threw them away cleaning. up. so any help would be greatly appreciated.



please someone help me.


kyle


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Update2 : Oh -- BTW -- even before your current editing, back at the time, I actually found ALL of the discussions/posts from yourself and other posters quite useful in one way or another ...



That's surprising!










If the gamma settings are at the Pro mode defaults, I think that should be the "darkest" setting.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigkev4123* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was wondering if any of you guys could help me out with something. i have a kd30xs955, and i was messing around with the picture settings, like mpin, pin, ucp, lcp,ppha, lang, vang, vbow, lbow, and for some reason the lines are a little off and I cant seem to get them right. Is there any way I could reset them to the original numbers, or if someone could give me their numbers and I could go from there. I wrote all the original numbers down but i must have threw them away cleaning. up. so any help would be greatly appreciated.



kyle,


Per Ken's Post #871 above, please DO NOT attempt to try to fix this by resetting the SM!! This will ERASE other CRITICAL factory adjustments.


I've got a couple other ideas, but I need to bounce them off a few people with a little more smarts first, hopefully tonight or tomorrow. So just hang loose for a little while, and let's see if we can come up with a better, safer and less destructive solution for situations like this.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's surprising!



Well, I think one of the best things about AVSforum is when knowledgable folks discuss their ideas concerning a particular issue, such as "gamma", as well as provide links to other sources/etc ...


Although I do feel it is important to post accurate infomation as much as is possible, and it is also good when that information is corrected by others -- every comment doesn't have to be 100% "right" in order for the reader to beneifit, as I think Some of this stuff is like following an "investigation" - which I think helps the reader "learn", improve their "thought processes" and make good decisions concerning what "to do" about issues they may be experiencing, especially when we don't have a nice big list of descriptions of service codes from Sony .... (The descriptions of listings from the XBR2 manual helps, but) ....



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If the gamma settings are at the Pro mode defaults, I think that should be the "darkest" setting.



Yes, P2170P-4 GAMM, and the GAMS~GAMB "lookup" are all at "0" for a "0" GAMM setting, "brightness" slider+test patterns for setting black level work out perfectly with SBRT=28, with "brightness" slider at 31, and with UBOF's between 0~5 (0 only for my DVD player, 3~5 for everything else). But the picture slider needs to be 22~25(which works out just perfectly) or it hurts my eyes after a bit of viewing. (the "brightness" of the "contrast" is the best way I can think to describe it, there's probably a better way to say it). And, from what I can tell using "gamma charts" from AVIA/etc(another place where it helps If I take off my glasses and view it from a certian distance), Gamma appears to be right at about 2.4 with those settings(Including Pic slider at 22~25).


Again, all I'm talking about on this is that I can't find a way to "get" picture slider up to "31" midpoint value and achieve the same results as I'm getting with "Picture"=22~25 -- I don't want to spend much more time on this, as it really isn't necessary, but if anyone has any *suggestions or thoughts about how I could do this, or any thoughts concerning *why* this is occuring I would appreciate it.


* - Note that I tried redefining lower DRV settings(can't go low enough, as BDRV would have to be less than 0), I tried adjusting SPIO(which "sort of worked, but seemed to affect things "differently" than the picture slider, which Is something I didn't want), and as much as possible tried changing **** to lower values. Again, Not that it really matters, it doesn't , as "picture" slider at 22~25 works great.


--------------------------------------------------------------


Update to above : In short, looks like the weak link here(my eyes) were "playing tricks" on me ... I discovered this tonight as other family members are complaining about the "dim/dark" picture today .... So, I turn all the lights off and give it another look ... Surprise, surprise -- "Picture=28" appears to now be "the" setting to use ... Which, since previously I had the **** values at "4" for the highest contrast sources(which I now have at ****="0") makes sense, as I had looked at this closely enough on previous occasions when I'd found "Picture=24" to be "the setting", and that is where it was for a long time with no "complaints" from anyone ...


I expect what happened was something along the lines of : Along with going about improving "balancing contrast" settings among different inputs/etc, my eyes must have gotten "too used" to the dimmer picture with the lower Picture slider setting+in a complete dark room enviornment to the point I thought anything else was "too bright".


Although it might seem to be a simple thing, Doing this sort of thing "by eye"(even with the use of Test patterns for White levels) and getting "proper" contrast/white levels with "picture" or "contrast" controls has allways seemed to me to be one of the most difficult "eyeballing" adjustments. But, when it is set "just right", it shows ..


Now that I have Picture slider closer to 31, Perhaps I might revisit 2170P-4 "SPIO" again or lowering 2170P-1 DRV values a couple of notches to get Picture slider up to 31 ... Or, then again, maybe I won't


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Again, all I'm talking about on this is that I can't find a way to "get" picture slider up to "31" midpoint value and achieve the same results as I'm getting with "Picture"=22~25 Update to above : In short, looks like the weak link here(my eyes) were "playing tricks" on me



Ah! Join the club! I have determined that, for myself, watching in a very dark room screws up everything, as though my eyes need a "context" in which to judge a "natural" TV contrast (overall perceived brightness). I set mine so Picture = 31 was at the dim end of my preference range, and I find myself using that, 36, and 41, depending on the material. That said, I find that my eyes compensate well for whatever choice I make -- as long as there is some light in the room. The "background light" test patch on one or both of DVE/AVIA test disks is useful; my illumination is similar, and it seems fine. My perception of color is properly dominated by the TV -- the argument for not having too-bright an ambient illumination.


Nitewatchman, have you tried to balance overall brightness with 2170P-4/****? I found HDTV much too bright, ordinary SD broadcast about right, and my DVD player over HDMI to be impossibly dim. Accordingly, my **** settings for those three inputs are 1, 4, and 14, respectively, out of a range of 0-15. Original factory settings: all at 7.


----------



## KenTech

*HELPFUL NEW CHARTS*


Motivated by Nitewatchman's complex posts and to save myself from going nuts keeping track of all of the service-mode parameters that affect specific factors, such as black level, color saturation, etc., I have prepared some new charts to organize this stuff. Fill in your own values.


Columns are initially labeled according to Sony's service manual, but sometimes the meaning of the column labels changes a bit from place to place. Particularly ambiguous is the term "ATSC," as it certainly includes QAM cable-digital tuning in some places but not others. Digital SD broadcasts are included in the ATSC column in one chart but under "DSC" in another. For my set, the settings for 2170P-4/****~SHUE that apply to broadcast SD and to my DVD player connected to V5 are inseparable, even though they appear in different columns. But I've shown the charts as they appear in the service manuals.


See attached PDF file of five pages. It prints in *wide* orientation. Pease call my attention to any errors and suggest improvements. Let me know if there are font problems on Windows PCs.


[Edit1: Made very small changes and corrections to charts. Decided to commit to Arial font. Edit2: Eliminated superfluous column for _DRV and _CUT tables; added color-matrix table (RYR~GYB) to section III.]

 

GS&ColorCharts04.pdf 239.6318359375k . file


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Nitewatchman, have you tried to balance overall brightness with 2170P-4/****? I found HDTV much too bright, ordinary SD broadcast about right, and my DVD player over HDMI to be impossibly dim. Accordingly, my **** settings for those three inputs are 1, 4, and 14, respectively, out of a range of 0-15. Original factory settings: all at 7.



Yes, I believe I've mentioned doing that in recent posts, including revisiting that very procedure, currently. I'm am doing my best to continue to refine the "balance", which defintely seems more difficult than it sounds like it shoud be.


I experienced similar results with the factory settings - which were ****=7 for almost everything - except for "DRC"(SD 480i/etc), which was set at ****=4 from the factory. As you might imagine, this only helped make HD "burn out your eyes" "bright" compared to SD. The factory "SCON" settings in 2103-1/2103-1 seem to be right on the money, or close -- "4" for RF, "6" for YC/CV ... although, I can't quite decide if "5" or "6" for SCON is better for CY/YV at this point, or where exactly "SCON" for RF needs to be at -- 4~6 is in range, but even "8" isn't too high for some OTA NTSC stations. Right now, contrast for the 'brightest' OTA NTSC analog station I receive is matched with "SCON=4" to it's digital "HD" counterpart. So, Some analog OTA stations via the tuner are "dim" and some equally match their ATSC/"HD" 720p or 1080i(during upconverted local/syndicated programming or HD programming) counterparts. Oh well.


In my case, it is also my DVD player, (but only at 480p+via component) that's the "dimmest" source, but not quite that "different" from other sources ... I currently have **** for most sources at "0"~"1", with exception of 480p via component from DVD player at ****=7.


Probably the most difficult one to eyeball for "balancing" contrast among sources for me has been for 480i ATSC. It has allways been "bright" and "garish" and hard to deal with. I have Many stations that are multicasting and sending 480i "subchannels" -- several which are simulcasting their analog programming at 480i SD digital, only one I'm aware of (from talking to one of their engineers) that I know with a fair amount of certianity that the analog+SD digital should more or less "match", more or less. With it's **** at 0 also -- Last night, I was also able to make a improvment for 480i ATSC by lowering its UBOF setting by 1 value, and also help "balance out" things "brightness wise" among sources. I do recall when setting black levels among sources that I had a particuarly difficult time with 480i ATSC - The internal QM pattern with the relatively small white box "sort of" helped a bit, but not quite enough.


Also, I know there are other ways of doing it(such as lowering DRV values and raising other **** values), but It also turned out I found the slight modification of "CBGN~YGN" values I've been playing around with useful when it comes to the "too bright" HD I was dealing with. For instance ,YGN factory setting was "5", and since I'm currently using **** at "0" for say 480i ATSC or component -- With YGN setting at "5", ****=0 was still too bright for HD in comparision -- but, YGN at "4" is just perfect with "****=0 or 1 (haven't decided 100% on that one yet)" for 720p/1080i ATSC.


Of course, YGN can't be just adjusted "independantly" on it's own -- If you have CBGN~YGN settings of 5-5-5, to lower YGN to "4", you'd have to lower CBGN~CRGN to 4 as well. Along with that "consideration", After further refining, also concerning "color balance" and striving to achieve the same results with the same RYR~GYB values for all sources - , right now I have CBGN~YGN at 5-5-4, changed from the factory default of 4-5-5. Haven't quite settled on the "exact" values for these yet, along with other adjustments for color(SCOL/SHUE/etc), trying to get the best match for using the same RYR~GYB values for all inputs/ sources+scan rates. I think I have pretty much ruled everything else out for CBGN~YGN other than 4-4-4, 5-4-4 or 5-5-4, so it will likely be one of those. If I needed it a notch "brighter", from what I can tell(I haven't looked at this extremely closely) changing CBGN~YGN to 6-6-5 would only change white balance as well as would be the case going from 4-4-4 to 5-5-5.


Anyhow, On the PICTURE=31 thing -- I did go back last night and look more closely at "SPIO". Lowering it to "7"(It may need to be "6" however) from the factory default of "10", and ended up with "Picture=31" while looking closely at programming material/etc did seem to work this time without causing any I'll effects. However, I also tried lowering SPIO farther and adjusting **** upwards as necessary, that may not have turned out so well -- I'm not talking about "big" differences here, but it still looks like to me that adjusting SPIO is for example, effecting gamma to a very slightly different degree than say, the Picture slider or "****".



Update : Oh, I do have a ambient light set up (behind the set) ... but, I had decided not to use it when I was working on this a couple of days ago, in order to hopefully maximize the "differences" I'd be able to see while trying to further improve the balance of "contrast" among sources .... I think it did help in that regard, but, it didn't work so well for trying to "change" Picture slider up to mid-point values, which I was trying to do at the same time to "kill two birds with one stone" in a sense ... Which evidently didn't quite work .... I did turn on the light last night ...




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Motivated by Nitewatchman's complex posts and to save myself from going nuts keeping track of all of the service-mode parameters that affect specific factors, such as black level, color saturation, etc., I have prepared some new charts to organize this stuff. Fill in your own values.



Thanks Ken -- that should be very benefical for folks. Along with use of printed out versions of the servicecode chart from the PDF, The method I've been using is to keep track of everything in a Word document, with "scribbled notes" used(and then added/edited into the word document)when actually making changes in SM. that word document includes not only my changed settings+the defaults/etc, but also notes/do it lists/thoughts/etc. It is a LONG document, and I don't know if anyone but me could deciper some of it. - It's so long in fact, when I update it, I usually only print out a seperate, "updated" version, unless a "lot of stuff" changes in the "big" file. At first, it was more of a hassle to deal with, but now, generally I'm not changing a lot of different settings/values, and so it has worked out well for me.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> All I can really say is that has not been my experience with Sony KD34XBR960.
> 
> 
> I do think some of what he said is true -- but only to a certian degree ... For instance I think it is true "focus" on the screen edges is never going to be as good as in the center .... However, unless he checked it+tried to improve it, I don't see how he could say any "adjustments" wouldn't achieve improved results ....



Nor mine with my 36XS955. I significantly improved overall focus by drilling an access hole to the physical focus control inside the set and redoing everything according to the service manual's procedure. This is what I wrote up in my previous article #13 starting *here* .


I called out a service tech because I had an overall vertical red fringe on horizontal lines, and I suspected that was a magnet tweak on the neck of the CRT. I was right: the tech fixed it in a minuite while I monitored the results for him.


But when I pointed out the noticable vertical misconvergence in the upper-right corner, a *slight* cyan patch left of center, and curvature of horizontal lines about 1/8 the way down from the top, the tech smiled and explained that those types of defects were theoretically correctable with magnets, but that you could lose your mind trying, as all of the changes interact! You twiddle a magnet in one place to cure the cyan patch, but now the convergence is out in the upper-left. You correct the horizontal curvature at the mid-upper-right, but now the upper-right corner is much too dark and reddish.


I understand, as I have gone nuts tweaking the convergenbce on an old RCA TV monitor with *only* magnets. So much of it interacts that making the correction is more art than procedure.


I have decided for now to take the tech's advice and leave well-enough alone. He wasn't avoiding work on my set; I believe he was being honest.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't know, but actually "brightness" does actually work for me to best describe what we've been talking about when it comes to the "picture" slider or ****, rather than using brightness to refer to black level ... But, that's just me, and it would probably be confusing for folks, and it's no wonder some of this stuff is confusing.



(I deleted the reply to your post, where I wring my hands about term ambiguity, as it no longer applies.)


Some very knowledgeabe folks who write good online technical articles on this stuff have opined that the three terms should be these:

Black Level = what you think it is. Replaces the idiotic "brightness" term forced on us by the manufacturers.

Brightness = Overall appearance of brightness in the picture as determined by the white-level setup. Corresponds to what you and I perceive but would horrible confuse folks who already have bought into the manufacturers' definition. I would reluctantly accept "contrast," although I don't like this because I am a digital-photo junkie, and this is NOT what contrast means there.

Contrast = mid-tone brightness, as established by the gamma setting. I really don't like this one -- just call it "gamma" ferchrissake! That would be precise.


Proposal: I would like a real "contrast" user control, meaning what it means in photography: a steepening of the response curve in the mid-tones, also known as an "s-curve." This is an era of digital processing of video, and it is a regular feature of pro-grade video cameras. Why not in the display? Some broadcast TV, no matter that gamma is maxed out on the TV, has really insipid mid-tone contrast, making eneryone look pasty. A "contrast" increase would fix this.


Switching to a lower gamma in the TV, an option we _can_ set up for one of the four Picture modes, already compensates nicely for grimly dark TV. ("Lost" and several regular network dramas come to mind.) I did this for myself for "Movie" mode, and I now can't imagine doing without.


----------



## KenTech

Since the new charts make it easy for me to do this, for those who might be interested, here are the settings that define black level and contrast ("Picture") for my set. This results in normal user settings of Brightness slider = 31 and Picture = 31 to 41.


In 2170P-3: (6500-6700K white point, no pink/green tint, linear grayscale. References: 6500K-calibrated computer monitor, mid-day sunlighted white clouds.)


07-SBRT = 29


08-RDRV = 43

09-GDRV = 27

10-BDRV = 21


11-RCUT = 43

12-GCUT = 21

13-BCUT = 24


15-SBOF = 7 - 7

16-RDOF = 30 - 32 (for User-menu choices Cool - Warm, respectively)

17-GDOF = 31 - 31

18-BDOF = 32 - 30

19-RCOF = 30 - 32

20-GDOF = 31 - 31

21-BCOF = 32 - 30


In 2170P-3, my 13-UBOF settings vary from 3 to 5, balancing black level among the various inputs. E.g. SD broadcast = 4, HD broadcast = 5.


In 2103-1, 02-SCON is set to 6 and 8 for RF and CV/YC, respectively.


In 2170P-4, 01-**** is used to balance the contrast ("Picture") among the various inputs. My settings for DRC - V5,V6 - HDMI - MS/ATSC are 4 - 4 - 14 - 1, respectively.


The global adjustments, 04-SPIO ~ 06-SHUO have been left as set at factory, 7 for all.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (I deleted the reply to your post, where I wring my hands about term ambiguity, as it no longer applies.)



Note: I deleted my post also, to hopefully cut down on the "clutter" in my posts a bit, as the portion of it you quoted seemed more than suffiencent.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Some very knowledgeabe folks who write good online technical articles on this stuff have opined that the three terms should be these:



Agree 100% with your post, the terms they came up with(well except for their "contrast" term), and your take on them.


A "real" contrast control would be nice for that "pasty stuff" - which was causing me difficulty in some cases when trying to find the best values for ****, balancing overall brightness(as defined by the "experts") and user menu Picture slider/etc.


As I think I've mentioned, I also have movie mode set up with lower gamma -- Have GAMM=1 set up for GAMR~GAMB=3 for movie mode. Although It does come in handy at times, I must also admit that I rarely use it, and that I actually like the "dark" look of "Lost"(at least the HD version) ....



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Nor mine with my 36XS955. I significantly improved overall focus by drilling an access hole to the physical focus control inside the set and redoing everything according to the service manual's procedure. This is what I wrote up in my previous article #13 starting *here* .



Using your article #13 (precision focusing - I had also checked dynamic focus adjustments in 2170D-4 QPAM~DQP and your article #7 on a previous occasion, but revisted them again when using article #13) made the procedure probably one of the "funnest" things I have done concerning calibration of this set. And although it just turned out to be the case with my set that it wasn't necessary, it's nice now that I don't have to wonder about whether or not it is as good as it can be. It's allways been a question I've had with various sets, and I end up checking the focus on just about all of them, and some of those sets DID need the adjustment.


It just happened to turn out in my case on my XBR that the adjustments pertaining to focus/dynamic focus apparently had already apparently been properly adjusted at the factory.


It is possible however a small improvement may have resulted via my adjustment of the focus pot -- I thought I may have noticed a slight improvement, anyway -- but it's hard to say. Because it was fine as it was, and if it the "knob" did end up being in a little different spot that it was after I adjusted it for best results with the "focus" test patterns/etc, it wasn't much ... say, something along the lines of probably 10:35 o'clock position for one of the "slits" on the knob intead of from the factory 10:45 or 10:30.


What *did* help on my set was adjustment of the D-CONV settings with a cross hatch pattern up, as I had horizontal misconvergence(and it was pretty bad, enough to cause "blurriness" in those areas - which is why It's good I did this before looking at the "focus" adjustments) visable in vertical lines in what would be in the "side bars"(outside of 4x3 "area") on this 16x9 tube - moreso on Left than right, and to a different degree in the corners. The D-CONV settings worked marvousely(spelling, I'm being lazy today sorry) to correct this.


I can detect a slight bit of vertical misconvergence(but only with a cross hatch pattern up) , at extreme top+bottom of screen -- more significant at right top corner perhaps -- but only present on the very "top and bottom" visable cross-hatch pattern lines. It is not effecting the next line "inwards" at all, so can't be effecting much more of the screen than say, 1/2" or less from top or bottom. It's not noticable at all during programming material, and I see no reason whatsoever to "mess with it" so to speak.


Geometry Isn't absolutely perfect, but for the most part I'm very happy with it, as it was from the factory. For the most part, I wasn't able to improve on geometry(straighting out "lines" that are for the most part already straight) with the relevant P2170D-1+D-2 settings.


I did reduce overscan a bit, and "sort of" centered the raster -- There is also a slight bit of a Horizontal Linearity issue - referencing screen center, occuring about in the left and right "middle" of each 1/2 left+right side of screen. It's not noticable -- excepting via "measurements" via comparison of the horizontal width of the "little squares" in a cross hatch pattern. I did notice(and I wasn't expecting this) that adjusting HCNT also improved this H-Linearity issue. HCNT is now at "40" it was "37" from the factory. Actually, I paid more attention to minimizing the H linearity issue than centering the raster when I noticed that HCNT effected H linearity (which is something I didn't quite expect). I didn't check the raster centering precisely by "opening the shutters(HBLK/etc)" yet, but have that on my list. V-linearity seemed to be right on from the factory, if it had been off, or I needed to adjust it because of other changes I make, V linearity of course is quite "adjustable" from within SM.


I haven't messed with any of the MID geometry/overscan related values yet, don't know if I ever will, except if I want to perhaps try to reduce overscan a little more(it's mostly at about 4% currently) -- Mainly, If I ever get around to it, I do want to reduce overscan more for "HD Zoom" mode specifically -- although I adjusted from the set defaults so proper aspect ratio would result for "zoom" or "HD zoom" via setting ASPT=52(the set default of 43 made for example - "squashed" circles), It looks like with "HD Zoom" It's cutting off "more" of the top and bottom(and the sides too for that matter) of the frame(say from a 4x3 upconvert from a station sending 1080i) than it should be, or more than what gets cut off with "zoom" mode from SD sources. This is especially noticable, and mostly an issue for me if letterboxed 16x9 programming is being sent within a 4x3 frame, within the 16x9 1080i or 720p ATSC format actually being sent by the station.


Anyway -- I did have the back off the set at one point just to "peek around", and noticed that it did get the chevron magnet treatment at the factory. There are 6 or 7 I could see placed in spots on the back of the tube.


I don't know how significant(or if they are really significant at all) deflection/geomtery issues concerning the alignment of the set would be if the set were instead, say being used in say, Japan, or if it had been made in asia/etc. In any event, in my case perhaps it is nice to know that my set is facing directly west, and that the PA plant where the set was made is only a bit more than 200 miles away from my location, at probably the same latitiude - such that the Earth's magnetic field probably has about the same effect at the set's manufacturing site as it does at my location.


I think I've covered just about everything somewhere or another that I've encountered or adjusted/etc on my set, I hope some of it is useful to someone in some way.


----------



## sanjoseskater

Any reason why I would not be able to download the files you have attached in this thread? I keep getting error messages that Internet Explorer cannot open because the site can not be opened or can't be found.

Thanks,

Derek


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sanjoseskater* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any reason why I would not be able to download the files you have attached in this thread? I keep getting error messages that Internet Explorer cannot open because the site can not be opened or can't be found.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Derek



Right click, open in new window...!


----------



## Jediphish

I know this is probably impossible, but is there be a way through the service menu to re-lable the picture settings from "Vivid," "Standard," "Movie" and "Pro?" I'm not referring to the inputs.


Given all the tweaks to SNR, BRT, GAMM, etc., it would be nice to be able to rename the picture settings "HD," "SD," and "DVD," etc.


If not, I guess "Standard" can become the picture setting I use for SD, and "Pro" or "Vivid" could be for HD, while "Movie" could be for DVD.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since the new charts make it easy for me to do this, for those who might be interested, here are the settings that define black level and contrast ("Picture") for my set. This results in normal user settings of Brightness slider = 31 and Picture = 31 to 41.



I know I've posted these before, in a more scattered fashion -- just to post them all in one place and perhaps for a bit of fun to "compare" with your settings -- here's those values for my set, for Brightness slider=31 and (hopefuly mostly) Picture slider = 31




2170P-1 - Hopefully ~6500K just via eyeballing and looking at clouds/etc. Again, sorry I can't offer anything more definitive than that. There is No pink/green tint or other color contamination(including checking all inputs with user menu "color" slider at 0, or grey scale patterns from DVE or AVIA/etc.), so it appears to be linear greyscale from what I can tell. Note that the factory "warm" offset seemed awfully close to 6500K, however it does have quite the greenish tint to it.

07-SBRT = 28


"neutral" setting for color temp :


08-RDRV = 32

09-GDRV = 16

10-BDRV = 7

11-RCUT = 32

12-GCUT = 17

13-BCUT = 9


for User-menu choices Cool - Warm, respectively :


Note that I've mostly used "cool" offset for experimental purposes - although it is currently set for a bit cooler color temp currently ..


Note that for "warm" offset, I have values set up so the RDRV~BCUT values are the same as what resulted with the factory defaults for "warm" offset(which were same as service code listing), and in brackets, I've added what those corresponding DRV/CUT values are.



15-SBOF = 7 - 7

16-RDOF = 31 - 31 [32](for User-menu choices Cool - Warm, respectively)

17-GDOF = 32 - 32 [17]

18-BDOF = 33 - 33 [9]

19-RCOF = 31 - 31 [32]

20-GDOF = 31 - 31 [17]

21-BCOF = 31 - 27 [5]

22-DCOL = 0 - 0 (note, set default was "1" for cool offset, "0" for Warm)


In 2170P-3, my 13-UBOF settings vary from 0 to 5, balancing black level among the various inputs. For my DVD player(480i or 480p component) UBOF=0, everything else ranges between UBOF=3~5. HD ATSC broadcast(or Memory stick) at UBOF=4, RF(for analog NTSC OTA broadcast mainly) is at UBOF=5, CY/YV is at UBOF=3 - for Dish network 311 receiver and JVC S-VHS Deck via S-Video connections.


In 2103-1, 02-SCON is set to 4 and 6 for RF and CV/YC(the factory defaults), respectively.


In 2170P-4, 01-**** is used to balance the contrast ("Picture") among the various inputs. note that On my set, I've noticed can't set a seperate value for 480i via V5/V6, it uses "DRC" value.". My settings for DRC - V5,V6 - HDMI - MS/ATSC are 0 - 6 - (HDMI not used) - 0 or 1(haven't decided for sure on that one yet), respectively.


As YGN this effects "white balance" for 480p/720p/1080i (via V5/V6 or internal ATSC tuner) as well Note that CBGN~YGN factory defaults for "component" were 4-5-5, my current adjustment is 5-5-4. I would need lower "****" values for 1080i/720p(and they are at 0 currently), or lower drv settings/lower "SPIO" values with YGN at "5".


The global adjustments, 04-SPIO ~ 06-SHUO had factory defaults of 10-6-7, my new values(only changed SPIO) are 7-6-7.


--------------------------------------


It could never happen, but I was thinking how interesting it might be if we could do a "side by side" comparision of our sets Picture quality, using the same sources(of course, for example a cable STB's output might of course vary and require different settings from what I need for say, YV/VC for my Dish network receiver, or JVC S-VHS deck).


It would be like trying to guess how many sheep I can count jumping over the moon before I fall asleep tonight, and while I have no doubt there might be some differences -- I'd almost be willing to bet the results would be more similar than the differences among our sets for the above numbers might seem to suggest.


----------



## KenTech

Made small changes to the *GS&ColorChart.pdf file*, eliminating superfluous column in _DRV and _CUT tables and adding color-matrix table (RYR~GYB) to section III. See original *post* to download current file version 04.


These files are openable by Adobe Reader, a free application from adobe.com. I have no idea why Explorer insists on trying to open it in Windows, as it clearly has a ".pdf" suffix. Another choice: Download it to a specific location as a ".pdf" file, then open that.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Note that for "warm" offset, I have values set up so the RDRV~BCUT values are the same as what resulted with the factory defaults for "warm" offset(which were same as service code listing)



I can't imagine where Sony got these values, as they violate common sense. If Warm using approximately these settings were tweaked to be correct, then why would you ever switch to Neutral, as it would be way too blue? Just keep in mind that these are *offsets,* not absolute _DRV and _CUT values. Setting Warm or Cool to 31-31-31 has *no* effect.


Like you, I "take over" Cool for experimentation so I can try out changes and live with them for a while before committing them to the Neutral _DRV and _CUT parameters. Not that there's any potential problem, as I log all of my previous settings. But one can easily switch between "old" and "new" settings that way.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jediphish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If not, I guess "Standard" can become the picture setting I use for SD, and "Pro" or "Vivid" could be for HD, while "Movie" could be for DVD.



Perhaps I might be missing something, but, unless you want to use slightly different RYR~GYB settings for say HD vs SD for some reason -- for the most part I don't know why you'd really need different Pic modes for "SD or HD"/etc, as for example, The 2170P-3 settings allow you to set different image processing(and Color/Hue or black level offsets) which are BOTH scan rate and input specific. In fact, they are already set from the factory "differently" for different scan rates(HD or SD/etc), even via the same input. For instance, there are different SYSM settings available for 720p, 1080i and 480p from the internal ATSC or QAM tuner, and there are different settings available for SD from the internal NTSC/cable ready tuner. You don't have to "switch" between them, the change in "settings" happens "automatically" when with the internal tuner you say, switch from analog channel 7 to a digital station on virtual channel 7.1 sending HD. For more info,


See Ken Tech's article earlier in this thread on customizing picture modes, as well as his articles/posts on the image processing settings.



I don't know if you can "rename" those or not, I've never looked into that. But, that is one of the reasons, I have set up "standard" as my "main" viewing mode for everything. Actually, I rarely use anything else, except for my lower gamma settings for "movie" pic mode, or for expermimenting with various image processing settings with "vivid", or making comparisions to "pro" which I've left at it's defaults.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It could never happen, but I was thinking how interesting it might be if we could do a "side by side" comparision of our sets Picture quality, using the same sources(of course, for example a cable STB's output might of course vary and require different settings from what I need for say, YV/VC for my Dish network receiver, or JVC S-VHS deck).



What? You don't want to do a Giant Schlep between Oregon and Ohio? (I hail from Youngstown, BTW, thru high school, then on to Pittsburgh and CMU.)


What one *can* do for show-and-tell, however, is digitally photograph the screen -- or, better yet, parts of it so the picture files don't get huge. It won't prove anything regarding color, grayscale, etc., but for image quality, arguments about "edginess" and sharpening -- yes, it works. I keep thinking I will do this the next time I see someone complain about the quality of SD-analog broadcast on their set! (The DA-4-based sets are unparalleled at SD display, since they only minimally upsample 480i for 960i display. Garbage in, garbage out, however!) Trouble is, you have to use a freeze-frame, as most camera exposures are a bit long for anything moving.


An example for anyone willing to try: Display the attached freeze-frame from Monsters, Inc DVD (note the time in the filename), and take a picture. It's one of the best examples I know of minimally-enhanced video at the limits of DVD quality. View at 300-400% to see the gory details. (The picture is a pixel-accurate computer-grab from a DVD freeze-frame, *not* a photograph.)


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just keep in mind that they are *offsets,* not absolute _DRV and _CUT values. Setting Warm or Cool to 31-31-31 has *no* effect.



Absolutely. The warm offset values I provided, as well as the DRV_CUT values the "correspond to" should, at least in part demonstrate this.


Perhaps I didn't explain myself fully enough. To "get" the DRV~CUT values that "corresponded" to the factory "warm offset" values, I looked at what the offsets "were" in comparision to what the factory "neutral" values were. For instance, Factory BDRV value was "24". Factory value for BDOF for "warm Offset" was "16". So, looking at the number you need to subtract(15) from "31" to get "16" for the offset, means that the factory BDOF offset of 16 means the warm offset from the factory (BDRV = 24 - 15) was using "9" for it's "actual" "BDRV" value.


So, I figured that out(and double checked it numerous times) and wrote down the actual RDRV~BCUT VAlues that would produce the SAME results as the factory "warm" offset if I actually used them with RDRV~BCUT and "neutral". Then, given my new "neutral" values(actually what I'm using for RDRV~BCUT) I redefine new offsets for the "warm offsets (+ or - from 31 as necessary) so that the "warm offset" still gives me the exact same results as was the case with the factory "warm offset".


I know that seems like a lot of work, but wanted to be able to check the same color temp that resulted factory warm offset values for reference, and I just prefer to use "neutral" and the actual RDRV~BUT settings with my improved settings.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What one *can* do for show-and-tell, however, is digitally photograph the screen
> 
> .)



Yes, I do that often for various reasons in my local threads, and for my TV/DTV Dx'ing Hobby. You'll find some(but mostly from other sets) posted from me In Cincinnati or Dayton threads.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It won't prove anything regarding color, grayscale, etc., but for image quality, arguments about "edginess" and sharpening -- yes, it works.



And, since I'm using the same settings there(your lastest image processing "Findings"), including If I recall correctly from one of your posts even the same value for the user menu "sharpness settings" -- I don't think we'd see any difference in the image quality










The user's PC display might be something to think about though.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The DA-4-based sets are unparalleled at SD display, since they only minimally upsample 480i for 960i display.



I agree. Unlike many HD displays(not that some of the others are all that bad -- the farojuda chipset in my Toshiba 34HF84 does an awfully good job of it as well - just not quite as good as the XBR), SD (even from analog OTA sources) looks fantastic on this set.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Absolutely. The warm offset values I provided, as well as the DRV_CUT values the "correspond to" should, at least in part demonstrate this.
> 
> 
> Perhaps I didn't explain myself fully enough.



No, I got it. My comments were not aimed specifically at you, but were to clarify for some readers who, not being engineers in their DNA, don't relate intuitively to the whole "offset" notion, especially when "zero effect" isn't zero but 31. For those who get it: I'm trying to walk that line between snowing some readers and talking down to those who already understand. Hope there's not too much repitition.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The user's PC display might be something to think about though.



For black level, contrast, and especially gamma, you're right. But it's fine for seeing the actual image on the DVD. *Here* is a method that can be used on a Mac or PC with free software to get pixel-accurate 1:1 frame grabs for any DVD you can play on your computer. There are a few more frame grabs posted there and in the next few messages, too.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hope there's not too much repitition.



Not at all. I also didn't mean to "moan and complain" that you were pointing something out I already knew -- but unfortunetly via this "medium" I think it's sometimes impossible to know "exactly" what is meant by any given comment or point(not that it is allways necessary to - as people come here I think mostly for the information that will help them), and it is also difficult (and really unnecessary) sometimes to "word" your posts so that the actual "intent" of the comment is known. If THAT makes any sense.


In any event -- I think add'l explanations/clarifcations/etc are useful in some cases - along the lines of what I was discussing with ADU concerning his earlier posts about "gamma" -- for instance Perhaps hopefully my additional clarification might also help others who are looking at utilizing their Cool/Warm offsets in similar ways. If I recall correctly, a post similar to mine helped me understand it back at the time, and saved me time trying to figure out what was going on.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## digimiX

i recently bought a KD-34XBR960 and need to adjust the picture size/placement. all sources are cut off a bit...about 5% or so. isnt this overscan?? i cannot adjust in the normal tv settings. anyone know how to do this in the service menu?


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For black level, contrast, and especially gamma, you're right. But it's fine for seeing the actual image on the DVD.



I should also mention -- One issue I have run into when photographing a CRT screen, is "focusing the camera" issues and visable "moire pattern". That's as true for a "digital" camera as it is a film camera.(Yes, I'm also into photography+photo editing/etc - just not so much lately). In fact I have, and sometimes still even use a 35mm film(negative) scanner).


You don't see it with your eyes, but if you focus the camera for "sharpest" results, or use the "auto focus", I've found moire pattern will usually be present, and that has been the case for every CRT display I've ever photographed. Placing the camera a certian distance from screen can help, but how I usually handle this is slightly defocus before making the exposure - although, with my digital camera the little LCD display isn't the best for this. Generally, I use relatively low F-stop and shutter speeds of ~1/15~1/60 per second with settings on my digital camera which supposedly approximate ASA200. As for the shutter speed/etc, if I under or overexpose something/etc, I'll fix it by raising/lowering Gamma/etc. with photo editing software, since it isn't generally a priority to be exact, I just change it so it "sort of" looks good.


FWIW, attached is a screenshot I took of a portion of KD34XBR960 screen while in one of the "QM" "info" screens for ATSC information(PSIP info from the transport stream/etc), in order to demonstrate the station wasn't sending some proper info concerning some PSIP tables. The abbreviations "light up" for those tables if the receiver can properly recognize them/etc. In this case, it's a 1080i signal, and 1080i "full" mode being used.


I took this screenshot several months ago, when I was using your "old" image processing recommendations. I believe I was experimenting with greyscale also at the time, and don't recall what "other" sorts of settings I was using. This is very much a "close up" shot of screen, and is a part of a higher resolution image which I didn't resample/resize or use unsharpening or sharpening filters on -- which is something I often do for screenshots of CRT for other purposes(such as involving my TV Dx'ing hobby).


As you can see, there is a slight difference in focus on what is the far left hand edge of screen. I can't really see any of that to as much of a degree with my "eyes", even this close to screen, presently, so perhaps, unless it has to do with having the lens so close to screen/etc.(I just didn't take the time or effort to pay any attention to that) -- I might have also been experimenting with the dynamic focus adjustments a bit at the time. Also, note I wasn't really trying to get a "good shot" other than than to get a clear shot, just so the text was readable.


Update: oops! Just realized the attached file is not a very good example .. as Looking at that again, looks like I must've used a little too high JPG compression ratio when I took that image. Don't know when/if I'll ever get around to it, but I'll put it in my notes to try to get a better screenshot from something such as the captures from Monsters, INC Ken posted(can't do it from DVD, though), and I'll use the camera's "raw" format to create a uncompressed tif and be very careful about the compression ratio/etc.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *digimiX* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i recently bought a KD-34XBR960 and need to adjust the picture size/placement. all sources are cut off a bit...about 5% or so. isnt this overscan?? i cannot adjust in the normal tv settings. anyone know how to do this in the service menu?



If the picture looks great and its an even amount of overscan on all sides...leave it alone. You never know whats behind this overscan: bending lines in all directions, corner spots and other nasty stuff.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> *HELPFUL NEW CHARTS*
> 
> I have prepared some new charts to organize this stuff. Fill in your own values.



Sorry to post twice on this but I just wanted to thank Ken again for putting the work into this and posting it, and for providing/adding the excellent descriptions. It should be very useful for folks, I've printed out the latest update and already found it useful especially as it is much less "confusing" to look at to see all the relevant parameters for "Black Level", "Contrast", "Color" All on one page in an organized way, along with the different columns for inputs/etc.


----------



## KenTech

I just did a little tinkering this evening with CXA2171/CBGN~YGN. I put up a completely balanced-looking DVD still frame from my V5-480p input. (I prefer 480i for DVD, but that doesn't go thru the CXA2171 chip.) I watched the picture while I tweaked the values of CBGN and CRGN to see what the "signature" of maladjustment was.


Other "misadjustments" are well knows: Wrong Hue setting = greenish or pinkish skin tones. Color amount wrong = garish or insipid colors across the spectrum. Red push = colors balanced, except for red, which stands out as exaggerated.


But why did Sony "unbalance" the factory settings for the two components Cb and Cr in the service-manual chart -- and apparently also for Nitewatchman's 34XBR960? Mine were set alike: CBGN - CRGN - YGN at 4 - 4 - 4 or 3 - 3 - 3, in different columns.


The effect of unbalancing the first two is interesting but in accord with what Cb and Cr signify: the degree of color mapped along either a blue-yellow axis or along a perpendicular red-green axis, independent of luminance. If you crank CBGN above its "partner" CRGN, there is considerable blue and yellow "push" added to the picture -- not one color or the other, but both. Same with CRGN, except the colors are cool-red and green that are exaggerated. Grays are not affected. If both are increased the same amount, all colors are increased together -- as though one has simply increased saturation.


Those two color-axis parameters are together paired with a Y parameter, which is the luminance of the substance of the picture: Increase it by cranking up YGN, and the picture gets brighter but less saturated; lower it and it gets dimmer but the colors get more intense. Raise and lower all three together, and you just increase and decrease the picture's contrast without affecting color.


I guess that if there is a characteristic in the color-processing chain that must be compensated, then Sony might go for the CBGN/CRGN unbalance. Or if one of the processing chips has a lower output for one of those color components. But my 36XS955 came with them at 4 - 4 - 4 out of the box. Go figure.


I note that the color-coding of the cells for these values in Sony's chart indicates that some are set "at F[actory] A[djustment]" and others "at C[ircuit] B[oard] A[djustment]." (My interpretation.) Perhaps if one of the circuit boards is replaced, service personnel have to attach an oscilloscope and use these settings to "trim" the color-component waveforms to the correct amplitudes.


If I see color aberrations that push blue *and* yellow or red *and* green, I'll now think about trying a correction in CXA2171 -- for 480p, HD video, or HDMI, that is. Anything that goes thru 480i DSC processing doesn't go anywhere near this chip.


----------



## Nitewatchman

first -- Another quick note on the new charts Ken posted yesterday -- they also helped "remind me" that although I had made sure I'd set up everthing properly to "customize" the picture modes for all the inputs/sources/etc, I was using at the time .. When I added "MS" recently, I had missed changing the value to "0" for the seperate column for "ABLT" for "MS" -- and finally realized this last night when I first glanced over the charts. Don't know why I didn't notice the slight change when switching between "Pro" and other pic modes with MS, but I thought there was something that was a little "off" ... now I know what it was ... Thanks again Ken ...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just did a little tinkering this evening with CXA2171/CBGN~YGN.



Thanks for giving those a little more of a look. Your findings on this match my observations on this to a T. And, you have done a much better job explaining it than I have explained my observations and tinkering with this.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But why did Sony "unbalance" the factory settings for the two components Cb and Cr in the service-manual chart -- and apparently also for Nitewatchman's 34XBR960? Mine were set alike: CBGN - CRGN - YGN at 4 - 4 - 4 or 3 - 3 - 3, in different columns.



Unless someone tinkered with it(or the set was serviced) between the factory and the time I got the set(and for various reasons described below, that may be a possibility), the factory settings for CBGN~YGN on my set were 4-5-5.


I don't think I have seen much possible sign of any such tinkering or "add'l" servicing being a possibility elsewhere, although its hard to say. For instance, all 2170P4 SHUE/SCOL set defauts match the servicecode listing from the service manual, as do most other values you'd expect. I don't know, but, the "factory" SPIO setting of "10" along with most "****=7" - (the big exception being DRC ****=4), might perhaps seem a bit unusual.


[update] Almost forgot : Other possible unusual "clues" that perhaps might suggest there was some "tinkering" or servicing going on with my set between the factory and the time I received the set : #


1). The "factory" default on this set for CBOF/CROF = 31/31 for 720p - although all other YOF/CBOF/CROF factory defaults match servicecode listing. So does perhaps(as I just happened to notice) the CBOP/CROP "factory" default of 9/36(36/37 in Servicecode listing).


2). Also, unusual perhaps especially as noone else has reported seeing these issues : a). the unusual, "sporadic" incidences I'm occasionally getting when only working in SM concerning values for specific columns of either 2170D-4 ASPW/ASPT or ZOOM occasionally "switching" on their own to values in the "next column"(and sticking) while I'm switching channels or screen modes at times when I'm working in SM(never outside SM). b). As well as a couple of odd things which have occured in SM concerning signals from internal NTSC or ATSC tuners. More detail avaialable concerning what I'm experiencing with these issues (a+b) as I reported in a more accurate and detailed fashion in Post #876 [end update].


It was "supposed" to be a new set -- but, nevertheless I suppose it is possible it wasn't entirely "new". My KD34XBR960 is a warranty replacement for another set. On that other set, long story, but essentially a bad diode in an aux power supply led to a 3 month wait and a set replacement rather than a repair. I know, it sounds crazy, and there is more to it than that, but that is the only info on it I was able to verify as 100% accurate.


I do know we took delivery of the Sony set in July 05, date of manufacture on the sticker says Jan 05. Also, I did notice when at the store "picking out" which set to replace my RCA F38310 with(of course, I had already decided there was only one choice, given the choices I had), they had no fewer than 5 open box KD34XBR960's sitting on the shelf. I also noticed the owner's manual said I was supposed to get some sort of "welcome" screen when I turned the set on for the first time, but I didn't get that.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I guess that if there is a characteristic in the color-processing chain that must be compensated, then Sony might go for the CBGN/CRGN unbalance. Or if one of the processing chips has a lower output for one of those color components. But my 36XS955 came with them at 4 - 4 - 4 out of the box. Go figure.
> 
> 
> I note that the color-coding of the cells for these values in Sony's chart indicates that some are set "at F[actory] A[djustment]" and others "at C[ircuit] B[oard] A[djustment]." (My interpretation.) Perhaps if one of the circuit boards is replaced, service personnel have to attach an oscilloscope and use these settings to "trim" the color-component waveforms to the correct amplitudes.



For whatever "reasons", on my set there seems to be slight mismatchs for "color" between #1). those scan rates effected by CBGN~YGN/CXA2171 chip(480p/720p/1080i) and 2.) everything else(DRC). As well as a very slight mismatch between a)480p and b)720p/1080i. And, for whatever reasons, My best guesses are either #1). is that whoever(factory or someone else? I don't know with 100% certianity see above) made any "CBA" or "FA" adustments managed to perhaps not find quite the "best" settings for their adjustments, or for CBGN~YGN(if they even adjusted those at all) to best compensate for these slight mismatches I'm getting or #2). This set is on and used by various family members on average about 12 hours a day. It just doesn't make much sense to turn it off much of the time, as someone will just come in 5 minutes later and turn it back on. Perhaps it's possible some "drifiting" has already occured, although I'm fairly sure this issue has actually been there all along.


Follows is just some of the evidence I have for this -- -- note that in one of my previous posts on this which might suggest somewhat different results -- at that time I was also "experimenting" with 2170P-4 SLO - In some cases changing it to "7", from the "factory" default of "6". This time, I left SCLO at the default "6" for everything.


#1). Using the Blue+white QM PATN 6, 46 and 66 for 1080i, 480p and 720p respectively, and turning on blue only gun via RGBS = 1 -- With the "factory" defaults for CBGN~YGN -- While I found I could adjust SCOL+SHUE for the "most even" blue(to where I can't even see a "boundry" between top+bottom 1/2 of pattern) --- For 720p AND 1080i ... I need different SCOL/SHUE(Or UCOF/UHOF) settings in order to get the same results from 480p ATSC(QM PATN=46). I think this may partly explain why finding out exactly how the "MTRX" control in SM worked and how to use it was important for me.


#2). Using the "factory" defaults for "CBGN~YGN" and adjusting SCOL/SHUE for best results with QM PATN= 6 (1080i), or PATN=66(720p) -- I do need to set SHUE=32(default 30), and SCOL=33(default 32) for 720p/1080i ATSC for best results. However, that change in SHUE from default doesn't really "work" well for Red gun only, or Green gun only tests/adjustments - I can get it to "work" to somewhat of a degree, but I have to use quite different, and unusual values for RYR~GYB than I need for everything else( in my case 480i DRC, basically) - which is 13-15-5-3. And again, the results for 480p(QM PATN #46) are somewhat different.


#3). I've played around with trying all the slightly different values for CBGN~CRGN I could think of to try, to see what works best to match 480p with 720p/1080i with the QM PATN x6 series of patterns, while adjusting SCOL/SHUE as necessary as well as trying to find the values which will allow me to use the same, or nearly the same values I need for RYR~GYB for 480i/DRC.


There is nothing I've found that "works" perfectly -- However -- I think the best I can find is CBGN~YGN at "4-4-4" -- It's still not 100% perfect solution, and CBGN~YGN "5-5-4" might be the better 'compromise" -- I'm not sure at this point. With CBGN~YGN at 4-4-4 - 480p and 720p/1080i with internal QM PATN #6 "series" match the closest, with "SCOL=34" for ATSC 480p/720p/1080i - best with 720p+1080i -- This also turns out to be the best "match"(more or less) I can find for 480p via component, but with SCOL=33. Note that SCOL=33 works best for 480p ATSC as well, but I can't set it differently - I can of course set SCOL=32 for 480p/720p/1080i ATSC, and then raising 2170P3 UCOF values for 720p and 1080i - before messing with anything like that though I want to find the permanant values for CGBN~YGN I'm going to use). No change in SHUE from "30" default is required for any scan rate.


Also note that concerning all the slightly different CBGN~YGN values I've tried, the factory defaults appear to be about the worst choice of what to use out of all of them concerning these slight "mismatches".


With CBGN~YGN at 4-4-4, The "best" settings for RYR~GYB for 720p/1080i ATSC are still not the same as the 13-15-5-3 I need for 480i/DRC -- Instead, after a little more "fine tuning" and checking last night -- the best settings for RYR~GYB for 720p/1080i using CBGN~YGN at 4-4-4 turn out to be "14-15-6-4" (and I was about to detirmine this time that is slightly noticably better than 14-14-6-4) -- Which Is perhaps interesting that Ken had posted he had came up with those same values for his set for 1080i with a recent recalibration using the QM patterns/etc. But, on my set for 480P component V5/V6, it turns out the best settings for RYR~GYB are the same as everything else -- "13-15-5-3". This provides for pretty much "perfect" color balance for all scan rates involved(only with 2 slightly different RYR~GYB settings - luckily which I can choose from user menu per input and pic mode), and I can't seem to find any "better" settings - not only concerning CBGN~YGN, but also the P21704 SHUE/SCOL offsets/etc.


#4). What I thought was also interesting was -- When I was experimenting a bit with setting "SCLO=7"(I know it says set it with a scope, but for one thing, I don't have one currently) several days ago instead of the "factory" default of "6" -- In which case, I found CGBN~YGN setting of 5-4-4 (servicecode listing default BTW) worked perfectly with 720p/1080i WITH RYR~GYB at 13-15-5-3. However, that wasn't the case for 480p -- including 480p via component. I also noticed raising SCLO to 7 also made the issue mentioned in #5 below involving S-Video input to become "worse". So, even though at first glance it seemed SCLO was a global setting that would have the same effect as turning up the "Color" slider, or adjusting 2170P4 SCOL, or 2170P-3 UCOL offsets -- that didn't seem to quite turn out to be the case.


#5). As you say, and I also have observed and reported-- 480i/DRC or NTSC isn't effected by these settings or the CXA2171 chip -- but -- neveertheless, I do wonder if perhaps the following issue might still in some way be "Related", but only in the sense that on my particular set I've also found a slight bit of a color balance "mismatch" between inputs in one other place, which doesn't involve CXA2171 CBGN~YGN :


Even though Color tests show "right on" results for 480i component via DVD(or 480i ATSC via internal test patterns), for All three guns used indivdually with :


#1). "SCOL=33" (factory default was SCOL=32 for everything, SHUE=30 for everything - again note that I have left "SCLO"=6, although I did experiement a bit with "SCLO=7") ---


#2). RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 ...


Via CV/YC (S-video) (AVIA or DVE color tests played from DVD) -- I'm getting excellent results with these settings(and centered Hue/Color sliders) and 2103-1 SCOL=8, SHUE=10 -- with "blue gun", and "Red Gun" -- BUT, with "green" gun, for best results Hue slider needs to be set to "G1" - (or 2103-1 SHUE adjustment at SHUE=11/etc) Trying to change RYR~GYB instead doesn't help, GYR~GYB at 5-3 are still the best values.


Again, since I'm not getting this from 480i component or internal ATSC pattern at 480i, I don't know what is going on with this. Could be something with the DVD player via S-video, or perhaps the s-video input itself and any "CBA" adjustment/etc -- Although, I'm not getting this with this DVD player via s-video vs. component hooked up to a another set - so that would seem to take the DVE player out of the "mix".



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I see color aberrations that push blue *and* yellow or red *and* green, I'll now think about trying a correction in CXA2171 -- for 480p, HD video, or HDMI, that is. Anything that goes thru 480i DSC processing doesn't go anywhere near this chip.



In my case, I allways knew something looked a bit "wrong" about the color with 720p/1080i. I noticed it most being an issue with "green" - seemed to be too much of it, or "unnatural" looking Green. But, it wasn't really apparent enough to be able to "quantify it" as Red+Green push(or probably more like "not enough" Blue+Yellow), as opposed to perhaps issues with the broadcast material/etc. But, I'm quite sure now that's exactly what was happening.


After changing CBGN~YGN from 4-5-5 to 4-4-4 (or 5-5-5 - I haven't decided on that yet or for that matter ****=0 or 1 for 720p/1080i ATSC) I think I can be reasonably sure just a "tinge" of Red+green push is what I had been getting with the "factory" CBGN~YGN settings of 4-5-5, as, in addition to what I've seen with the color bars/etc, --- those "unnatural" greens(it also effected flesh tones slightly) are now gone.


If there is anything going on now with CBGN~YGN at "4-4-4", and "SCOL=34" for 720p/1080i ATSC -- it may be a slight "electric blue" "push" you'd mentioned you had an issue with ... . I'm not sure yet, and hopefully I was just seeing things --- There was a lot of "blue" in this week's "Smart Gardening" episode and it looked just wonderful -- but Last night the fellow's blue shirt on the PBS HD Mexico cuisine show was awfully "electric blue" looking ... Even though of course in my case my QM #6 pattern with blue gun is perfectly even across the screen with the current settings, and tests with Red or green only are showing excellent results as well. Hopefully, it was just his shirt and the lighting involved ....


If not, perhaps it may be turn out to be the case that "5-5-4" is my better "compromise" setting for CBGN~YGN - In which case It works best to lower "SCOL" for 720p/1080i to 32 (note that SCOL=32 also works best for 480p in this case) for best results, and use RYR~GYB=13-14-6-4 .. which in this case, also works best for 480p - unlike the differences in RYR~GYB needed between 480p and 720p/1080i with CBGN~YGN at 4-4-4.


I've tried using both "5-5-4" or "4-4-4" "options" and the differing required SCOL settings for each for CBGN~YGN now(but only for a few hours each), and at this point I'm not sure which offers the better "compromise". I think it's "4-4-4" but may require a little more (and longer) closer observation of actual programming. I know in this case I'm just changing the color saturation(gain) by lowering or raising both CBGN+CRGN with the sam values - but the question is I think - Is it a tad " more" or a tad "less" less saturation that is the best "compromise" here --- 2 "ticks" up for SCOL, or one "tick" up for one value for Cb/Cr.


So, In any case and in conclusion, I've been able to make improvement, but it seems there are still some slight color "mismatches" going on between inputs/scan rates that it seems I have no way of completely "fixing" with SM (or user menu for that matter) adjustments. It is slight enough that at least so far with current settings(with perhaps exception of the "electric blue thing at 720p/1080i), It's not noticable when viewing programming. I may be able to find a slightly better "compromise", and I'll continue to look, but it is difficult to do as It the mismatches are not very significant.


------------------------


2/4 Update : Last night, went through a couple of my different options again, and have finally decided CBGN~YGN = 4-4-4 turns out to be best for my set.


One perhaps interesting thing I noted was that in SM and using RGBS 2/4 and the internal QM PATN #4/6, #24/26, #44/46, #64/66 -- as I mentioned earlier RYR~GYB at 14-15-6-4 is best for 720p/1080i, but 13-15-5-3 (confirmed with AVIA/DVE via DVD) is best for 480p, just as it is for everything else (480i component, 480i ATSC/i.e. DRC). However -- I left the QM patterns up for 1080i and went outside of SM, and noticed that with the DVE green or Red color filters, RYR~GYB=13-15-5-3 appeared to be the better choice -- Now, I know there can be errors in these filters(and that seemed easy to spot for the DVE Blue filter), but what was odd was that using RYR-GYB at 13-15-5-3 outside of SM with the DVE Red+blue filters perfectly matched my results with RYR~GYB 14-15-6-4 + RGBS 2/4 inside of SM. Probably just a "coincidence", but it just seemed odd and thought I should mention it ...


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> RYR~GYB at 14-15-6-4 is best for 720p/1080i, but 13-15-5-3 (confirmed with AVIA/DVE via DVD) is best for 480p, just as it is for everything else (480i component, 480i ATSC/i.e. DRC)



My results are similar. East to determine whether it matters. Just set up one for Default and the other for Monitor color axes. Now you can observe a good subject pucture and switch between them.


I fond the difference is a tiny change in green intensity -- totally insignificant. SInce broadcast TV is poorly color controlled anyway, I'll happily "sacrifice" that for accurate DVDs. So 14-15-6-4 is my Default. I have almost no incentive to ever switch.


If skin tone had changed noticably, I would have an issue. But a tiny green intensity change? Hardly!


Ken


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My results are similar.



That's good to hear. Not unexpected, but now I know besides the "factory" CBGN~YGN setting on my set, the very slight color mismatches I'm getting on my set are not unusual.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just set up one for Default and the other for Monitor color axes. Now you can observe a good subject pucture and switch between them.
> 
> 
> I fond the difference is a tiny change in green intensity totally insignificant.



Same here. I've also already checked broadcast sources(even HD) with both "default" and "monitor" choices I have set up, and I really, really have to look closely to see any differences, so either choice will suffice in any circumstance, really.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> SInce broadcast TV is poorly color controlled anyway, I'll happily "sacrifice" that for accurate DVDs. So 14-15-6-4 is my Default. I have almost no incentive to ever switch.
> 
> 
> If skin tone had changed noticably, I would have an issue. But a tiny green intensity change? Hardly!
> 
> 
> Ken



Yes, what I did is set up RYR~GYB "13-15-5-3" for the "default" color axis choice avialable from user menu, and RYR~GYB "14-15-6-4" for "monitor". Only really because those are the very slightly "different" RYR~GYB settings that worked out for me, and because in the 34XBR960 for "default" color axis choice it's labled in the user menu as "emphasize red colors", and the "monitor" color axis choice is labeled as "de-emphacize" red colors - which just seems to make more sense in my particular circumstance.


On 34XBR960 with the "mode memory" function in user menu set to "on", I can use different "color axis"(either default or monitor) per pic mode, and per "input". So, since in my case, "13-15-5-3" is "most accurate" for everything (including DVD at 480i/DRC or 480p) except 720p/1080i HD -- I am using "default" color axis choice for all inputs except from internal tuner and MS, which I have set to "monitor", currently.


If there is anything that might cause me to change my setting for broadcast sources(from internal tuner), from previous experience with this sort of thing, it might be for the orange portions of Cincinnati "bengals" graphics or uniform as received from the "poorly controlled color" from some broadcast sources - mainly that of course involves SD or upconverted local/syndicated SD programming for various reasons, not HD from the network feeds.


I just find it extremely annoying when the "orange" portion of those graphics turns out being more of a weird "sort of" pinkish+reddish+Magnenta color ... And, I've found that easily occurs with a slight tad less "green intensity"(any "red push" doesn't help either in a slightly different sort of way) - even from a network feed during a game. And, As it so turns out, my "monitor" setting will probably end up being the best choice for this, anyway.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On 34XBR960 with the "mode memory" function in user menu set to "on", I can use different "color axis"(either default or monitor) per pic mode, and per "input".



I thought of this, too, but then one would be sacrificing one of the (only) four Picture Modes for a hairsplitting difference.


Consider how easy it is to "use up" the four modes for more important things. (Remember that Sony's mode-naming has no inherent significance. You just can't change it.) For example, my choices are:

Standard = My best overall settings at the current time. Used for all viewing unless something "special" is needed.

Movie = _Exactly_ the same as Standard, except for gamma. For this mode, GAMM = 1 and the gamma amounts for that settings are set to 3 and GAMS to 0. Used to correct intolerable "gloom" in some programming.

Pro = More conservative settings than Standard, generally based on SYSM = 3, not 2, and tuned for smoothness. I try this when I think I am overdoing "enhancements" in Standard. 90% of the time, I go back to Standard.

Vivid = Ad-hoc experimentation. I make it identical to Standard, then change one or more settings to see if I have learned something new that's of value. I'm currently experimenting (again) with the VM-shaping parameters in 2170P-3. Another example: If I think I have spotted an issue with Standard, I "fix" it in Vivid, then live with it for a couple of days, switching back and forth to confirm results. If I have discovered a legitimate improvement, I transfer it to Standard, and then Vivid becomes available for another experiment. Vivid has become my "scratchpad" for settings.


Nowhere in this scheme is there room to assign an insignificant color-matrix shift to specific inputs. Mode Memory is OFF, since I might use any mode for any input. Obviously, I wish there were, oh, about a dozen or more possible preset "modes" _some_ of which could be made input-specific.


Think of the problems folks have who simply want to balance black level among 5 discrepant inputs and have no inclination to do it in service mode! They're always playing with Brightness of leaving it set and complaining about the picture quality. (Or they don't see any difference. Ignorance is bliss!)


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I thought of this, too, but then one would be sacrificing one of the (only) four Picture Modes for a hairsplitting difference.
> 
> 
> Consider how easy it is to "use up" the four modes for more important things. (Remember that Sony's mode-naming has no inherent significance. You just can't change it.) For example, my choices are:



Yes -- I agree. I don't use different "Color axis" settings for different pic modes, and wouldn't want to for the reasons you mention. Which is part of the reason why I want "color" to match as much as possible from all inputs/sources/scan rates, was just posting that it is possible.


I actually brought it up to address the capability with "mode memory on" to use different RYR~GYB Color axis settings in an "input specific" manner, but whenever possible I usually like to be as complete and accurate as is possible so also mentioned it's possible to have different "color axis" settings for the pic modes as well. As I explained, for instance, I'm using "default" color axis choice for everything except sources from the internal tuner(NTSC/QAM or ATSC) and Memory stick for which I'm currenlty using "monitor" color axis choice. That's the only "difference" between Inputs I'm actually using "mode memory= on" for. [update : oops. I lied







I'm also having to use user menu Hue setting of "G1" or "G2" for my Dish network receiver via S-video, and Hue = "0" for a S-VHS deck via S-Video. [end update]


I use the pic modes pretty much exactly as you do, well not just pretty much --- I have them set up+use them exactly the same way as you are. I do keep trying to come up with some sort of other good use for "vivid" for when (if ever, LOL) I get done "experimenting".


I have been experimenting a bit with ABL settings, and if it were possible(which doesn't seem to be the case for YMLT), and If I ever get done "experiementing" with "vivid" it might be nice for instance to be able to set up say, "YMLT=2 or YMLT=1" with "vivid", as opposed to "YMLT=3" for the other pic modes.


----------



## Napoleon D

Ken - I had asked this question on another thread here but this one might seem more appropriate.


For your Pro mode, where you have SYSM = 3, how are you working with that smoothness (which SYSM-3 creates) to bring out sharpness? SYSM-3 i think is a much more attractive picture that the 2 setting. Although SYSM-3 requires some kind of sharpneing, more definition to make the details more visible. You mentioned you used a MIDE 60 setting with the appropriate sub-category settings. I tried this, but it still did not sharpen up the picture enough. My calibrator has it all set this way for Pro (with a light MIDE setting). All edge enhancemnts (except for MIDE) are turned off. He also has sharpness slider in middle, which is convenient place to keep it. I was curious how you were sharpening the SYSM-3 image to the point where fine detail is easily visible, but not overshooting/ringing etc.


Thanks Ken!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ken - For your Pro mode, where you have SYSM = 3, how are you working with that smoothness (which SYSM-3 creates) to bring out sharpness?



First, I think the "smoothness" is an illusion. If you reduce Sharpness for the SYSM=2 setting, you get smoothness, too -- it's just a _different_ look. And the reason is probably that SYSM=2 really does reach into the very high video frequencies for its sharpening, and too much looks "scratchy."


To address the several questions you ask . . . My working model (in my head) is that these controls and filters, taken together, act as sort of a "graphic equalizer" for the video spectrum, analogous to the same for the audio spectrum in a stereo system. One additional factor, hard to find an "equalizer" analogy for, is the matter of visual unsharp-masking, which, for a scanning TV, is a matter in the time domain, not the frequency domain. The effects are _positioned_ on-screen relative to the details on which they are acting. Example: a sharp vertical edge from 20% to 80% gray (dark on the left) would have a slight dark line added just before the transition to 80% and a slight bright line added just after it. That's if you turn the effect up too high to prove the point; normally one would add just enough of this effect to _cancel_ an inappropriate softening of that transition becuase of losses in the video chain somewhere. So it's a great conpensator. I think that is SYSM=2's greatest strength, and SYSM=3 can't compete.


Here's sort of how I see these effects:


SYSM=2 = Great unsharp masking, especially with PROV=3. Affects mid-detail and up, the effect increasing with finer detail, like a video frequency-response boost-ramp. Overdone, it looks scratchy. My Sharpness is generally set about 25-31 for this. No effect is NOT at Sharpness slider=0 but more like at 10-12. Below that, Sharpness has a softening effect!


SYSM=3 = Effect occurs almost entirely to the _right_ of the detail affected, and it appears to me more like a simple upper-frequency boost-plateau or peak in the small-detail frequencies. Overdone, it produces a bright line following a dark-light transition -- overshoot, but not much multiple-cycle ringing. It does not reach into the highest video frequencies, and so the finest detail remains unaffected. That's likely why it looks so smooth. (But I don't want Bruce Willis' face in _Fifth Element_ to look smooth!) I choose to build my enhancement base on SYSM=2, unless the video source is way ovesharpened to begin with or has lots of film grain. (But that's what the DNR in my DVD player is for, no?) No effect is 0 on the Sharpness slider, unlike SYSM=2.


Now for the filters. The coarsest for DRC-processed video (480i) is 2103-1/SHAP. Above 2 or 3, it gives that cheaply-sharpened "TV" look to good video. I hate it, and for now it is set to 0, with PREO set to 0 or 1 to avoid a slight ringing side-effect. Maybe SHAP=1 would be helpful, but I haven't tried that yet.


Slightly finer is the boost in 3D-COMB #18, YPFG, for SD from RF and CV sources. I don't want it either, and so it is set to 8, which Sony indicates is zero effect. (Below 8, the image is softened.)


Medium-fine detail is enhanced by 2170P-3/F1LV settings higher than zero. Good for SD sources.


Only the very finest detail is enhanced by setting MID5/MHYE from 1-7, providing MYHO=0 and MHYL=3. If MHYO is set to 1, the affected video frequencies are lowered, and you can again choose MHYE from 1-7 for increasing effect. in other words, MHYO=1 makes the enhancement _coarser_ -- which is just what is needed for SDTV, but not HDTV or fine DVDs. I find it hard to see the difference between the MHYO=1 group of MHYE settings and the same thing applied by 2170P-3/F1LV. Maybe the affected video frequencies are very similar.


For fine sources from DVD, I do all fixed sharpening in MID5 with MHYL=3, MHYO=0, and MHYE at 3 or 4. For HD sources, roughly the same, with MHYE at 2 or 3.


**************

So -- what to add to SYSM=3 to try for increased detail? I would use a column in MID5, set MHYL=3 and MHYO=0, and crank up MHYE from 1-7 to see if you can accomplish what you seek. That's the only filter that affects the finest details and textures. All others affect coarser detail, contributing to that "scratchy" thing.


I am baffled by the purpose of 2170P-3 nos. 10-12, LTLV thru CTLV. Sony calls it "LTI" level. I know it's zero at __LV = 0, and LTMD positions the effect such that LTMD=1 fattens vertical black lines, and LTMD=0 fattens white lines. If you look at frequency-sweep and resolution patterns on AVIA, you can see that the "LTI" effect is mostly with large details in the picture -- "midrange" rather than high frequencies. I have never found it to complement any image, so I never use it. Wish I knew what its intended purpose was; it's not just a filter but appears to operate in the time domain.


An aside: Filters that operate in the time domain give themselves away by shifting the picture to the right -- a delay. Compare 2170P-3/SHF0=0 with 1 (off). Or SYSM=2 with SYSM=3. Not a bad thing, if something important is accomplished. But it's a giveaway that there is not just simple frequency filtering going on!


2170P-3/SHF0 is another puzzle. Sometimes I have convinced myself that setting to 0 enhances SD video, but then I notice that fine textures are slightly _attenuated_ by it, even on SD material -- and so I want nothing ot do with it. I have used my Vivid mode to experiment to see if I can live with something like this. (See my recent post #920.) I always keep returning to SHF0=1 becuase SHF0=0 does something ugly to the picture. The whole "LTI" group is even worse, attenuating fine detail a bit. No thanks!


The bottom line is that it is a _balance_ among these choices that give your display a certain "look." With most real-world video sources, especially 480i, a "flat" video frequency response is a pretty soft or dull look, and some enhancements nicely fool the eye at a decent viewing distance into thinking the picture is better than it really is. That's the "art" of this and the reason to experiment and share results.


BTW, VM plays its part! Used discreetly, it does nothing negative, helps to compensate for the finite resolution of a CRT, and suppresses some sharpening overshoot. I use it on everything, even HD. I have spent a week at a time living with certain VM settings in the 2170P-3 group. Current favorites are:


VMCR~VMDL = 0-3-1-4 with actual VM level (Medium) of 6 (confirmed with VMLV).


Sorry to have been so long-winded, but getting the image right is a pet endeavor of mine, being a Photoshop junkie and a photographer. I think this series of TVs is absolutely amazing in how well they're engineered to get it right! If they were only adjusted this way from the factory . . .


----------



## Nitewatchman

Napoleon D,


Not meaning to "butt in" here -- just in case it is of any assistance, per some of the comments in your post in other thread --- if you haven't seen it you might want also want to check out Ken Tech's more recent(from Jan 06) posts and findings concerning "image processing". Most significantly, post Post 707 in this thread and the attached file "IpChart05tall.pdf".



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First, I think the "smoothness" is an illusion. If you reduce Sharpness for the SYSM=2 setting, you get smoothness, too -- it's just a _different_ look. And the reason is probably that SYSM=2 really does reach into the very high video frequencies for its sharpening, and too much looks "scratchy."



I think so too at this point. One recent experiment I tried involved using your findings from Post 707 .


Utilizing those findings, I set up both "vivid" and "standard" pic modes so everything was the same EXCEPT I set SYSM=3 for "vivid" and SYSM=2 for "standard". I then observed the results with various programming(including HD/SD from ATSC OTA sources) via switching between those 2 pic modes, in some cases changing the sharpness slider a bit.


Much to my surprise, there was little, (nothing of consequence really) I liked more about the SYSM=3 setting when compared to SYSM=2 in this way, although that had never been the case for me when I'd tried similar experiments before while using (mostly) your earlier image processing findings.


What is also puzzling, I think, are not only the SYSM "pro" mode set defaults in some cases, but also the description from Sony in the XBR2 service manual for SYSM. It says :


SYSM Bandwidth [0: NTSC, 1: FF, 2: HD, 3: DTV]


Ok, so "bandwidth" makes sense ... However --- why #2 for "HD" and #3 for "DTV?" In other words, what is that supposed to mean ?


"DTV"(for digital terrestrial Television(ATSC) I assume - Includes various 480i, 480p, as well as 720p and 1080i formats, the HD formats being 720p and 1080i) ... Just a WAG -- Could SYSM=3 perhaps be a setting which is there as a means for reducing visable MPEG2 compression artifacts when too high compression ratio is utilized ? Which of course, is an issue that is going to affect "HD" or SD MPEG2(or probably other codecs as well) sources other than via "DTV" ...


If there is any one setting I'd like to hear about in detail from the engineers at Sony who worked on this, it would be SYSM. If we could get a Sony Engineer as a "Genie in a bottle" sort of thing, what would be your 3 questions











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Current favorites are:
> 
> 
> VMCR~VMDL = 0-3-1-4 with actual VM level (Medium) of 6 (confirmed with VMLV).



Allways something new to try







-- Just kidding! Looking forward to it, as I've noticed VMCR~VMDL 0-3-2-8 with VM level 6 (set up for "medium" VM choice for user menu - which is where I generally most like it) seems to perhaps be doing a little "too much", to the point of it perhaps involving a bit of a "noticable" VM look to it on say, small, bright white text.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> SYSM Bandwidth [0: NTSC, 1: FF, 2: HD, 3: DTV]
> 
> 
> Ok, so "bandwidth" makes sense to a degree ... However --- why #2 for "HD" and #3 for "DTV?" In other words, what is that supposed to mean ?



Another Sony description: 0 & 1 = narrow peak, 2 = broad peak, 3 = flat. I don't believe a word of this!


> Quote:
> I've noticed VMCR~VMDL 0-3-2-8 with VM level 6 (set up for "medium" VM choice for user menu - which is where I generally most like it) seems to perhaps be doing a little "too much", to the point of it perhaps involving a bit of a "noticable" VM look to it on say, small, bright white text.



I was experimenting there with using VM-delay (VMDL) for the first time to keep the "center" of hot, bright objects from shifting to the left with the addition of VM. I now think VMDL=8 was a bit much, and 4-6 is better. Further, the higher you set VMF0, the more low video frequencies are excluded from VM. If all you wanted is more detailing, this might work, but VM is too crude for mere sharpening. The effect is far more subtle than that, and the ability to reduce overshoot increases with the lowering of VMF0. There's a big jump in VMF0 from 1 to 0; maybe the high-pass filter is removed entirely, who can tell. But VM effects get a little "fat" with VMF0 at 0. (Notwithstanding Sony's choice of VMF0=0 for HD!) I am trying this other compromise for a while: 0-3-1-4 instead of 0-3-2-8. Last night's viewing of DVD and ordinary SD cable broadcast was very fine. Is it me, or is it VM?


BTW, in the case of "tuning" VM, I believe the effects are subtle and not readily appreciated when quick-switching between otherwise-identical modes. I.e. if I set up both VM groups above for two modes, then switch back and forth during a live local newscast, I'm hard-put to see any difference. But when (how to say this?) my eyes have "locked in" on the picture, I eventually notice something very right or wrong about it -- which is the reason I have canned 2170P-3/SHF0=0: looks okay on a quick-switch, but after a while I notice that something isn't right. So I really believe that, on these subtle changes, one should live with an evening's programming to see if your recent changes "fit."


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> SYSM Bandwidth [0: NTSC, 1: FF, 2: HD, 3: DTV]
> 
> 
> Ok, so "bandwidth" makes sense ... However --- why #2 for "HD" and #3 for "DTV?" In other words, what is that supposed to mean ?
> 
> 
> "DTV"(for digital terrestrial Television(ATSC) I assume - Includes various 480i, 480p, as well as 720p and 1080i formats, the HD formats being 720p and 1080i) ... Just a WAG



Please don't take these descriptions too literally! I have begun to believe they are (1) badly-translated from Japanese and (2) full of errors. In the last charts I published, I copied the column labels from the service charts, but in many cases they make little sense, confusing ATSC, "V5, V6," YUV, etc. Sometimes OTA signals are referred to as "RF," in other places "ATSC." QAM (digital over cable) is never mentioned; AFAIK, QAM is *not* a subset of ATSC.


Eventually I hope to make corrections in the charts, but not just yet. I'm a little weary of testing!


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I eventually notice something very right or wrong about it -- which is the reason I have canned 2170P-3/SHF0=0: looks okay on a quick-switch, but after a while I notice that something isn't right. So I really believe that, on these subtle changes, one should live with an evening's programming to see if your recent changes "fit."



I had much the same experience with SHFO. In short, I had it set at "0" for quite some time until I decided I didn't like it.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW, in the case of "tuning" VM, I believe the effects are subtle and not readily appreciated when quick-switching between otherwise-identical modes.



Absolutely. I'll often go weeks before deciding on implementing a change, especially as I said earlier, I don't spend a lot of time "watching TV" on this set. Which is part of why I *very* much appreciate your work on the image processing settings, and, rather than spending a LOT of time on it experimenting(although it has been fun to check things here and there and do a bit of experimenting) I've been very happy using what you've found - especially your latest findings.


Anyhow, In addition to programming material(which we are most interested in of course), I also have a few things I look at closely when making or deciding on changes.


Such as : #1) various Local news graphics.


#2) A small ID bug one of my local PBS stations uses.-- It's a small circle, inside is white background with very small black text which Says "Think TV" (the "TV" is an even smaller "superscript"). If, for example I can't read that clearly from say 10 feet away, I know there's something wrong, either with my eyes+eyeglass perscription, or something has "changed" for the worse with the "image processing" settings.


#3). Another example(this one having to do solely with color) involving -- The EPG info from Dish network 311 receiver. For the channels I'm not subscribed to, they're "shown" in Red in the channel listing. If that red is a "cool" red, or undersaturated or oversaturated I immediately notice it.


#4). Also, concerning the 311's EPG info -- If I press the "info" button once on the remote, the programming description/guide/etc. pops up with small, bright, white "hot" lettering on a "clear" background". For instance, Some even Subtle changes in VM settings can especially be visable here - but we aren't talking big differences, and it might take a while before I notice a subtle change has changed things for the worse, or better for that matter. Press the info button a 2nd time, and the text turns black with a fairly bright "eggshell white" background(it's a rather large "box" which fills about 2/3 or more of a 4x3 frame). Any "Ghosting" issues can be especially apparent around that black text.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Please don't take these descriptions too literally! I have begun to believe they are (1) badly-translated from Japanese and (2) full of errors.
> 
> ."



That was one of the exact points I was trying to make, when I said "what is that supposed to mean?" -- Perhaps another clarification that might help --" WAG = Wild A** Guess. "


It's sort of like those "super green motherboard" manuals I used to seem to come across a lot in the Mid-90's that were written in Taiwan/china and translated to English. Stuff like "Jumper the M54 setting PIO mode 4 "/etc ...


Just especially gets very confusing at times in this case when your going through and looking at the charts at all the "columns ... "



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> AFAIK, QAM is *not* a subset of ATSC.



It's not, QAM is the signal modulation that is most used by cableco's for "digital" cable. 8VSB(Trellis coded 8-level vestigal sideband) is signal modulation used for OTA "digital"(ATSC) signals in U.S. There is also a little known signal modulation in the ATSC specs for use by digital cable that is "16VSB", and requires less FEC(forward error correction) than the OTA version. I don't think anyone is using it in U.S. as I think Cableco's(and decoders/"digital cable ready sets") have pretty much "adopted" QAM as the standard they want to use, but not sure.


16VSB has about the same data payload in a 6MHZ RF channel as QAM256 -- about 38Mb/s . Because of the extra error correction needed for "robust" OTA transmission/reception, with 8VSB, the data payload rate is 19.38Mb/s for 6MHZ wide RF channel. Thus, cableco's can "fit" 2 entire 19.38mb/s datastreams from 2 seperate digital ATSC stations into a single 6MHZ channel. Thus, there are often "two" slots per QAM channel. I've even read that it might be possible it can be 3 stations and 3 slots in one 6MHZ channel with the use of "rate shaping"(which doesn't require an add'l decoding/reencoding process).


With these sets which are "digital cable ready", the receiver "front end" has ATSC+QAM "tuners". In most cases, (in all cases I know of in my area), when a cableco distributes a station's digital "signal", the Transport stream(MPEG2 Video/AC-3 audio/etc) remains the "same" as what OTA viewers get(even the PSIP info), the only difference is the cableco doesn't Use the ATSC 8VSB "RF"(signal modulation) portion of the signal, and instead distributes the datastreams via QAM 256 on their system.


I suppose MPEG2 could in a way be thought of as *used*as an important "subset" of ATSC - --- and you'll find a LOT of "MPEG2" info in ATSC white papers, but of course MPEG2 is not a "ATSC only" thing(DVD's use MPEG2 for example), and other codecs besides MPEG2 CAN be used with ATSC OTA as well -- although no current receivers I know of will work with anything else other than MPEG2.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sometimes OTA signals are referred to as "RF," in other places "ATSC."
> 
> ."



Without going into great detail or accuracy here -- in the charts, I think it's working out that "RF" is refering to the NTSC (analog) "tuner" -- including for either OTA or analog cable(which uses the same "tuner", and channel numbers/frequencies on VHF as OTA, but different channel #s along with in part different frequencies on UHF cable bands). I think ATSC on the charts is referring to both ATSC(OTA) and QAM -- as, even though the tuners and RF signal de-mods that need to occur are "different" for 8VSB+QAM -- after that, For instance, I think whether you're getting a datastream originating from a station's MPEG2 encoeder via OTA via the OTA 8VSB RF signal or via cable via the QAM RF signal the cableco is sending via the "wire", the MPEG2/AC-3 audio/PSIP/etc. streams involved are going to be the same, and are also going to use the same MPEG2 decoder in the set+ probably the same signal paths(at least mostly)/etc.


Update :


I can actually hook an antenna up to the "cable" RF input on KD34XBR960, and it will work just fine with 8VSB ATSC signals on VHF(I have a local station transmitting on VHF 10) via the "cable" input - even though it isn't QAM - shows up as C9.1 with the PSIP virtual remapping. It Will NOT work for UHF ATSC stations.


end update



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm a little weary of testing!



Me too! I do know I had the chance to watch quite a bit of TV on the XBR960 yesterday, Including the ABC HD superbowl coverage and everything looks so good at this point -- I don't feel all that motivated to do too much more of anything .. Of course, I said that about 6 months ago as well ...


----------



## loadams

Ken, don't mean to ask a silly ? here, but............


I've got the older, bigger brother 40" gorilla. Now with 9 of 10 dvd rentals being in 16x9, why would I want to continue using 480p (component) when the set upconverts those dvds to 960i anyway? Pros.....cons ?


And that being said..... I have balanced my color decoder (13,14,6,3) with 480i and tweaked 480p with CXA2151, however, there is NO WAY to have a happy medium with 480p and 1080i on my set !!! Which is giving me a good reason to dump 480p altogether for the sake of decent color decoding in 1080i.


I guess I'm asking............ if 960i doesn't touch CXA2151, dump 480p ? Your opinion ?


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ken - I had asked this question on another thread here but this one might seem more appropriate.
> 
> 
> For your Pro mode, where you have SYSM = 3, how are you working with that smoothness (which SYSM-3 creates) to bring out sharpness? SYSM-3 i think is a much more attractive picture that the 2 setting. Although SYSM-3 requires some kind of sharpneing, more definition to make the details more visible. You mentioned you used a MIDE 60 setting with the appropriate sub-category settings. I tried this, but it still did not sharpen up the picture enough. My calibrator has it all set this way for Pro (with a light MIDE setting). All edge enhancemnts (except for MIDE) are turned off. He also has sharpness slider in middle, which is convenient place to keep it. I was curious how you were sharpening the SYSM-3 image to the point where fine detail is easily visible, but not overshooting/ringing etc.
> 
> 
> Thanks Ken!



You want a sharp picture, turn all the MIDE5 settings to 0, your PQ will be ultra sharp with no enhancements neccessary.Just look at text and tell me how perfect it is.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You want a sharp picture, turn all the MIDE5 settings to 0, your PQ will be ultra sharp with no enhancements neccessary.Just look at text and tell me how perfect it is.



Matt,


I'm with you on almost all of the settings you have suggested - and have a very nice picture - thanks!







I realize now that "adding" to the original picture (signal) can actually take away from the overall fidelity.


But, what if there's elements in the signal that I'm not seeing - elements that could make it even sharper? This is the direction my thinking is going. Like when raising the black level on a overly dark "dusk" scene and seeing how much detail I was missing (just an example).


I'm just thinking there may well be more "sharpness" to be enjoyed by "bringing it out" rather than "adding it in."


So, I'm focusing on finding ways to "expose" levels of fidelity that are already there but I haven't seen - yet.


This is why I find the latest "back and forth" between KenTech, Nitewatchman and Napoleon D so interesting. This is especially important since my 34HS420 doesn't have the SFP tube.


----------



## tlniec

Great thread, lots of information here! I have a question regarding a standard-def Sony CRT (KV-32FS100). I've tweaked the user menu settings and gotten some good results. However, I think I'm ready to take the next step and delve into the service menu. I have logged all the existing service menu settings (but have not yet changed any). Do you guys have any advice for a Sony CRT that only sees 480i (maybe 480p for DVD) input from DVD over component, VCR over composite, and Digital Cable over composite? I suspect I might be able to get by tweaking a relatively small subset of the parameters KenTech and Nitewatchman have posted, but I want to make sure. Thanks!


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Matt,
> 
> 
> I'm with you on almost all of the settings you have suggested - and have a very nice picture - thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I realize now that "adding" to the original picture (signal) can actually take away from the overall fidelity.
> 
> 
> But, what if there's elements in the signal that I'm not seeing - elements that could make it even sharper? This is the direction my thinking is going. Like when raising the black level on a overly dark "dusk" scene and seeing how much detail I was missing (just an example).
> 
> 
> I'm just thinking there may well be more "sharpness" to be enjoyed by "bringing it out" rather than "adding it in."
> 
> 
> So, I'm focusing on finding ways to "expose" levels of fidelity that are already there but I haven't seen - yet.
> 
> 
> This is why I find the latest "back and forth" between KenTech, Nitewatchman and Napoleon D so interesting. This is especially important since my 34HS420 doesn't have the SFP tube.



Well Steve,..You can't really add detail that is'nt there,all you will be doing is introducing stuff into the picture that does'nt belong resulting in noise, or artifacts.My advice is to keep the signal clean and you will thank yourself later on trust me










I was skeptical as you a year back and found out that it's not really neccessary at all, since i noticed all your doing is adding false information that is'nt there.


I just keep it simple and feed the signal to my tv without any processing, easy breezey










As a matter of fact i'm thinking of recalibrating my tv, mainly only touchup.Brightness and color mainly is my only issues, since i think i may have a low setting right now and it could be higher,And color although good, i think i can tweak it a bit.It may not be D6500k but it will look good none the less by simple refinements.


Beback in a few.


----------



## ADU

Apologies for jumping in the middle of a discussion, but just thought I'd throw in my 2c re some of the 2170P-3 edge controls, since I've been experimenting with these the last few days. This is still sort of a work in progress, so editing / retractions / updates (without notice) are likely, if not certain.


Some of the controls seem to operate with finer granularity depending on which SYSM setting is used, so I've broken them down into two categories based on that.


All of these controls seem to have their strongest effect in a horizontal direction and little or no effect in a vertical direction, so their behavior is usually easiest to see on vertical edges. And when I refer to "vertical edges" or "horizontal detail" below, I'm really talking about the same thing.


All of these observations were made using patterns/video content at 480p (input at 33.75khz) via DVI on a 34XBR800.

_NOT (OR DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE) SYSM-SENSITIVE_
SHF0 seems to change the "frequency" of sharpening in the image, creating a subtle "loosening" or "tightening" effect on horizontal details. 0=loose. 1=tight. It's easiest to see the effect with Sharpness raised on a pattern like this with SYSM=1. Though you can also sense the tightening/loosening effect in video content at nominal Sharpness as well. I don't think this control "scales" with SYSM, but it does effect the character of edge-distortions (ie ringing/overshoot) with each SYSM setting.

PROV is also easiest to initially see with Sharpness elevated. And seems to shift the "emphasis" to either the left or right of the edge in small increments. Like SHF0, the effect of this control is pretty subtle at nominal Sharpness settings, but it can be perceived as sort of pulling your eye towards either the left or right side of the screen. So it may have some value in achieving better "equilibrium" in the picture.


PROV may need to be tweaked differently depending on how SYSM and other controls are configured. Although it's easier to see the behavior of this control at higher Sharpness settings, I seem to get more reliable results adjusting it at nominal Sharpness, based on the way it seems to pull my eye toward either the left or right of the screen.

LTLV functions differently depending on how LTMD is configured.


If LTMD=0, then LTLV seems to smooth out details that are similar in brightness/color, while sharpening those that are aren't. So you may be able to think of it as sort of a combination low-con noise-reducer/hi-con edge-enhancer. It particularly seems to reduce "noise" (and maybe also some clarity) in darker areas of the image, ie shadow detail.


If LTMD=1, then LTLV seems to have a more generalized sharpening effect, basically reducing softness in the picture across the board, including shadow detail. This could be useful for enhancing shadow detail on 480p sources with SYSM=1. Whether it would be beneficial with the other SYSM settings, I don't really know yet. Preliminarily it looks like it might perhaps be a little heavy-handed with SYSM=2.


To see any effect from the two LTMD settings, LTLV has to be higher than 0 (ie between 1 and 3). LTLV=3 has the strongest effect. And the behavior of these controls is probably seen most easily at nominal Sharpness probably with SYSM=1. You can probably get a better feel for the difference between the two LTMD settings if you set LTLV to 3, and then flip back and forth between LTMD=0 and LTMD=1 while watching something with a pretty good level of detail like AOTC.

_SYSM-SENSITIVE_
F1LV seems to better define vertical edges, by boosting brightness on the lighter side(s) of the edge. Its effect can be seen fairly easily on patterns of fine dark detail or text against a lighter background, with Sharpness at nominal settings. This control is sensitive to how SYSM is set (ie it seems to operate at higher frequency/smaller granularity with SYSM=2/3), and it's easiest to see it's effect with SYSM=1.


Although this does increase "noise" in the picture (especially at SYSM=1), it may have some "defining" value in terms enhancing shadow details, especially at the higher granulity with SYSM=2/3.

CTLV seems to control the saturation of color on fine horizontal detail where two different colors meet. You can see the effect fairly well on the attached CTLV patterns with SYSM=1 at nominal Sharpness. With SYSM=2/3, CTLV seems to operate at a higher frequency/smaller granularity (watch the thinnest lines in the CTLV1.JPG pattern with SYSM=2/3).


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> CTLV seems to control the saturation of color on fine horizontal detail where two different colors meet.



I very much appreciate your additional insights on these "enhancement" parameters. Some of them are very hard to describe, and it's good to hear another view.


I'll bet that these parameters similarly named but starting with "L" or "C" are the same filters acting on Luminance and Color information, respectively. Whatever Sony's mysterious "LTI" is, there seems to be an equivalent "CTI," controlled by LTLV and CTLV. When I experimented with them, I didn't like what they did to light/dark boundaries, and I did notice a slight softening of fine textures. But I never thought to check for shadow vs highlight effects, as you described. I will now have a look, too -- although I am skeptical that I will ever find a use for them.


In the MID5 parameters, there are groups of filters that enhance color sharpness (MHCR, MHCE, MHCO) just as the ones for luminance do (MHYR, MHYE, MHYO) -- except here the luminance is referenced by a "Y." There is a downside to sharpening color, as color boundaries, especially between certain color pairs, are already screwed up by the color encoding during compression or by the NTSC broadcast standard. I once noticed that enhancing sharpness for color alone was not increasing the attractiveness of the picture but drawing attention to these artifacts. So I have chosen to leave color alone for now, as evidenced by all of the zeroes in the MID5 color parameters that I have recommended. The eye is known to be remarkably uncritical of color resolution, so maybe it's a lost cause.


Live and learn, though. Maybe there is a role for these color-signal sharpening features. I just haven't found it yet.


BTW, where did you get those lovely color patterns? Are there more?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've got the older, bigger brother 40" gorilla. Now with 9 of 10 dvd rentals being in 16x9, why would I want to continue using 480p (component) when the set upconverts those dvds to 960i anyway? Pros.....cons ?



What I can't predict for you is how your set handles these different video standards visually. On my 36XS955, for example, the set is more competent dealing with a 480i input in producing a marvelous picture, whether interlaced 960 or the CineMotion equivalent. If I feed 480p via component inputs, there is a limit on the detail somewhere -- the picture has lost some important texture information, and it can't be recovered. So I never use it. (HDMI is better, but that's another discussion.) Admittedly I can't tell if this is a shortcoming in my Panasonic S97 player's Faroudja/Genesis chip or a characteristic of the TV. I just know there's nothing superior to the component inputs for 480i, and so I would sacrifice 480p in a heartbeat!


So, that said, I would dump 480p, assuming you're happy with how it handles the 480i. Then you can twiddle your 2151 chip's settings to make 1080i similar in color rendition.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You want a sharp picture, turn all the MIDE5 settings to 0, your PQ will be ultra sharp with no enhancements neccessary.Just look at text and tell me how perfect it is.



This certainly should be, IMO, one of the columns available for your MID5 table. On mine, it's #63. But to say all-zeroes is all you need in all cases is ignoring what MID5 can do for you in many cases. All of the settings from #5/MHYR thru #18/MVCE are sharpness *enhancers* that have no visible downside. That is, they don't exaggerate some detail while squashing finer detail. The use of MHYR=3, MHYO=0, and then choosing a MHYE from 1-7 really restores fine detail and texture nearly lost in the video-processing chain. Let your eyes be your guide! Changing MYHO to 1 coarsens the effect, which is useful for SD video. Do what looks right to your eyes. There are no "best" settings!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 'm just thinking there may well be more "sharpness" to be enjoyed by "bringing it out" rather than "adding it in."
> 
> 
> So, I'm focusing on finding ways to "expose" levels of fidelity that are already there but I haven't seen - yet.



Well, this is the philosophy behind most of the "enhancements" discussed here. What Matt said, that you can't recover what isn't there, is true, indeed, and oversharpening is ugly! But sometimes detail and texture are really there and attenuated, like rolled-off highs in a sound system. A little boost restores the fidelity -- as long as you can tolerate a bit more noise, because you'll be boosting that, too.


The second reason to add sharpness to a soft-ish picture is to fool the eye when the picture is viewed at an appropriate distance -- the basic technique with broadcast SD, such as analog cable. Get too close, and you can see what crap the picture is; but get back a ways, and the picture integrates in your eye/mind and doesn't look so bad. If you add a little sharpening to the mix, that illusion can be improved, even if there is some outlining when viewed close. (Solution: Don't view close!)


As is obvious from reading Matt, viewing preferences vary a lot from person to person, and there is no "right" choice for everyone on what makes a great picture. Further, many of these judgements can't be made in a snap -- one has to live with a setup for a while to see if it's good.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I very much appreciate your additional insights on these "enhancement" parameters. Some of them are very hard to describe, and it's good to hear another view.



Agreed. See some of my already add'l edits above re the "tightening" effect of SHF0, and the "pulling" effect of PROV.









> Quote:
> There is a downside to sharpening color, as color boundaries, especially between certain color pairs, are already screwed up by the color encoding during compression or by the NTSC broadcast standard. I once noticed that enhancing sharpness for color alone was not increasing the attractiveness of the picture but drawing attention to these artifacts. So I have chosen to leave color alone for now, as evidenced by all of the zeroes in the MID5 color parameters that I have recommended. The eye is known to be remarkably uncritical of color resolution, so maybe it's a lost cause.
> 
> 
> Live and learn, though. Maybe there is a role for these color-signal sharpening features. I just haven't found it yet.



Raising CTLV seems to _reduce_ the color saturation at boundaries, softening, rather than sharpening color detail. So it might perhaps be useful for reducing certain color artifacts, or taking some of the bite off high-contrast color edges in some instances.


> Quote:
> BTW, where did you get those lovely color patterns?



Made 'em myself in Photoshop!


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, this is the philosophy behind most of the "enhancements" discussed here. What Matt said, that you can't recover what isn't there, is true, indeed, and oversharpening is ugly! But sometimes detail and texture are really there and attenuated, like rolled-off highs in a sound system. A little boost restores the fidelity -- as long as you can tolerate a bit more noise, because you'll be boosting that, too.
> 
> 
> The second reason to add sharpness to a soft-ish picture is to fool the eye when the picture is viewed at an appropriate distance -- the basic technique with broadcast SD, such as analog cable. Get too close, and you can see what crap the picture is; but get back a ways, and the picture integrates in your eye/mind and doesn't look so bad. If you add a little sharpening to the mix, that illusion can be improved, even if there is some outlining when viewed close. (Solution: Don't view close!)
> 
> 
> As is obvious from reading Matt, viewing preferences vary a lot from person to person, and there is no "right" choice for everyone on what makes a great picture. Further, many of these judgements can't be made in a snap -- one has to live with a setup for a while to see if it's good.



Exactly Ken










I feel your pain..it seems me and you are in the same boat always trying settings and seeing if you can live with them and test it with real material then constantly im changing parameters left and right.


Well after all this tinkering i realize you are never going to get a perfect picture but at least it's watchable,Even ISF is'nt guaranteed perfect given the limits of CRT technology.


I'm in the market for a replacement anyways, not that i don't like my sony it's just that me and my brothers are looking for a bigger display for gaming and movies and the closest we have found to match crt in PQ is DLP, so that's what i'm going to be looking into, especially the new 1080p OLED DLP's coming soon or the HP DLP tv.


peace,


Matt~


----------



## Q of BanditZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Exactly Ken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel your pain..it seems me and you are in the same boat always trying settings and seeing if you can live with them and test it with real material then constantly im changing parameters left and right.
> 
> 
> Well after all this tinkering i realize you are never going to get a perfect picture but at least it's watchable,Even ISF is'nt guaranteed perfect given the limits of CRT technology.
> 
> 
> I'm in the market for a replacement anyways, not that i don't like my sony it's just that me and my brothers are looking for a bigger display for gaming and movies and the closest we have found to match crt in PQ is DLP, so that's what i'm going to be looking into, especially the new 1080p OLED DLP's coming soon or the HP DLP tv.
> 
> 
> peace,
> 
> 
> Matt~




You got a spare kidney you wanna part ways with?


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I'm in the market for a replacement anyways...
> 
> 
> ...the closest we have found to match crt in PQ is DLP, so that's what i'm going to be looking into, especially the new 1080p OLED DLP's coming soon or the HP DLP tv.
> 
> 
> peace,
> 
> 
> Matt~



Matt!


A 1080p OLED? Are you sure that's what you really mean? The largest yet shown was about 20" and they couldn't even estimate a price because there's still many bugs to work out. OLED and DLP are not technologies used together, it's either - or.


We are researching FOLED display technology for the Heads Down Displays in our simulation cockpits and the prices are astounding. For a 13" display you're looking at about $40K, and that's not 1080p.


We're probably about 2-3 years out from SED at a decent price point, and about 5-10 years out for OLED at any kind of size and decent price point.


I recommend you look at HP's 1080p DLP - it's very, very nice.


Cheers!


----------



## SurfingMatt27

LOL yeah, my left nut










But seriously though, i'm not going to make thepurchase to about late march oe april so it gives me plenty of time to save up.The sony's been great these past 2 years, i just wanted something bigger.I was planning on buying a bigger tv in the first place but did'nt have enough cash at the time when i purchased my sony.


Any thoughts on specific DLP models i may be interested in please feel free to PM me.Or better yet i'll just make a topic thread in the RP display thread.


That way we can get back on topic of Ken's thread.


Matt~


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Matt!
> 
> 
> A 1080p OLED? Are you sure that's what you really mean? The largest yet shown was about 20" and they couldn't even estimate a price because there's still many bugs to work out. OLED and DLP are not technologies used together, it's either - or.
> 
> 
> We are researching FOLED display technology for the Heads Down Displays in our simulation cockpits and the prices are astounding. For a 13" display you're looking at about $40K, and that's not 1080p.
> 
> 
> We're probably about 2-3 years out from SED at a decent price point, and about 5-10 years out for OLED at any kind of size and decent price point.
> 
> 
> I recommend you look at HP's 1080p DLP - it's very, very nice.
> 
> 
> Cheers!



Thanks for the advice and yeash your probably right, maybe i meant to say LED DLP are'nt these supposed to be coming out soon later in april?Oh and thanks for the suggestion of the HP i've been hearing a lot of good things about it and will look into that as well as any other advice would be greatly appreciated.


Well i'll be making another thread now in the RP display forum, feel free to help me out anytime since i'm new to DLP and would like some good suggestions.


I'll be selling my sony too by the way for cheap, anyone interested please PM me, since i really have no need for it anymore once i get my new replacement soon.My father wants me to get rid of it any ways since theres really no room to accomodate it now because of the bulk and weight and we have enough tv's as it is in our house about 8 by the way







....So i can't really keep it.


Peace,


Matt~


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...Oh and thanks for the suggestion of the HP i've been hearing a lot of good things about it and will look into that as well as any other advice would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> ...i'm new to DLP and would like some good suggestions...



Matt,


The newest 1080p sets have alot to offer. I recently had the pleasure of calibrating a Sharp Aquos 45" 1080p LCD set - what a fantastic picture! In my search for that set I looked very closely at Sony's 50" 1080p SXRD set - awesome as well.


HP is getting excellent reviews of it's two new 1080p DLP sets, and they stand apart as some of the only ones that can actually accept as well as display 1080p.


Here's a piece from CNET:


The MD6580n also offers extremely impressive all-around performance, and although it didn't score quite as well during testing as Sony's SXRD-based KDS-R60XBR1, it came close enough to make it our favorite DLP-based HDTV yet.


You can also find good reviews here:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/rearprojectiontvs/106hp/ 

http://www.hdblog.net/2006/01/23/rev...n-ultimate-av/ 


Best of luck in your search!


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Thanks steve










Anybody you know looking for a sony 34" for cheap?If anybody's intertested in my sony 34hs420 just e-mail me or PM me.


By the way is'nt there a forum section for selling stuff?


Matt~


----------



## Nitewatchman

It might be interesting to hear from someone who has worked with the relevant 2170P-3 and MID5 settings on both a HS420 and one of the SFP sets.


Perhaps we are mostly dealing with issues relating to what any given person "likes", and as Ken said -- there is no "right" choice of settings for everyone ... Perhaps such issues as differences in output from DVD players also are involved.


Nevertheless, I wonder if it is possible we might also be getting something a little different on this depending upon if we are using SFP tube or no, or maybe there are some other differences between the different models which may be involved. Also -- apologies if this has been covered -- when, for instance we are talking about, say 480p or 480i from DVD via V5/V6 component inputs and SYSM=3 and MID5 column's at all Zero's -- are we also using the same, other relevant 2170P-3 settings? I think ADU's excellent info on these demonstrates how slight differences in how they are set up can be important as well.


-----------------------------


Anyway - FWIW - With ADU's excellent info on the relevant P2170-3 settings printed out and brought along -- Played around with these in a "seat of the pants" manner a little last night With KD34XBR960 and 480p DVD(Zenith DVD2381) via component input. Difficult to say how much of this, if any is "specific" to my DVD player.


I was working with these in my "experimental" pic mode(just happens to be "vivid"), to easily make comparisons to the settings I normally use, which are set up for "Standard" pic mode. Along with test patterns from AVIA, "The Phantom Menace" happened to be the first DVD I grabbed - and although not the best(It seems to have quite a bit of EE "built in" in spots for instance), various scenes from it, as well as its "THX Optimizer" along with Text+graphics in my DVD Players "setup" menu is what I ended up looking at.


Started with a MID5 "all zeros" column and SYSM=1 to more easily see what was going on. Then tried SYSM=2 or 3, making slight adjustments as necessary. I also played with changing MID5 columns set up with different settings along with making small changes to the "vivid" mode settings and trying different MID5 settings/etc.


Again, Just doing "seat of pants" stuff here - FWIW (not taking the time as is required to investigate in detail, or spending a lot of time "living with" small changes) - and just given a couple of hours playing with it :


#1) I thought it was interesting what one can do w/o use of MID5 column when one knows a little more of what is going on with these 2170P-3 settings.


#2). I do think I was probably able to come across the best results I've managed to date for 480p DVD with SYSM=3, utilizing the following applicable 2170P-3 settings - In brackets are my current settings I use with "standard" and "movie" pic modes (Note I have customized my Pic modes per KenTech's "customizing Picture modes" article earlier in thread - update : also note I included the VM "

shaping" settings, as well as I was using "VM" "medium" in user menu, with P2170-3 #19 VMM = 6 (set default was 8) :


#0 SYSM - 3 [2]

#2 VMCR - 0 [0]

#3 VMLM - 3 [3]

#4 VMFO - 2 [2]

#5 VMDL - 8 [8]

#6 SHOF - 0 [0]

#7 SHFO - 1 [1]

#8 PROV - 3 [3] (Note : I first ended up with PROV=2 for SYSM=1)

#9 F1LV - 1 [0]

#10 LTLV - 2 [0]

#11 LTMD - 1 [1]

#12 CTLV - 1 [0]

#16 MIDE - 60 [60, 48 or 49 - haven't decided yet]


And following MID5 column (Settings not noted are all set at "zero")


#1 POP - 60

#6 MHYL - 3

#7 MHYE - 3

#10 MHCL - 3

#11 MHCE - 3


For reference, here's My MID5 Column #48 (again - Settings not noted are all set at "zero")


#0 POP - 48

#6 MHYL - 3

#7 MHYE - 3

#10 MHCL - 3

#11 MHCE - 3

#14 MVYL - 3

#15 MVYE - 1


And MID Column # 49 (Settings not noted are all set at "zero"):


#0 POP - 49

#6 MHYL - 3

#7 MHYE - 3

#10 MHCL - 3

#11 MHCE - 3

#14 MVYL - 3



With previous experiments (which didn't work out very well) trying to use SYSM=3 for 480p DVD --- which mostly involved emphasis on "tweaking" MID5 column settings with(except for SYSM=3) the same 2170P-3 settings as shown in brackets above -- I was never able to bring out the "details" without adding too much EE or "ringing".


Last night, with SYSM=3, I found If I increased MHYE slightly to 4 or 5 for the experimental "vivid" mode settings noted above, I was just starting to approach some slight, noticable "ringing" occuring as evidenced in text in the DVD player's "setup" menu, and MHYE=2 may have been best.


I think it was (with LTMD=1) LTLV at a higher value which "helped" the most with this, concerning an overall increase in "sharpness" using SYSM=3. However, although I can see where it would be beneficial in some cases, one issue I had with raising LTLV is that I didn't really *need* to increase "shadow detail".


#3). Using SYSM=2 instead of 3, I noticed I was also able to get somewhat "close" to what I'm getting from my current "standard mode" settings for 480p DVD. Except with the use of "all zero's" in the MID5 Column. "Ringing" didn't seem to be an issue(which is especially noticable when it occurs in text for my DVD player's "setup" menu), nor was visable EE being an issue. -- but, I couldn't get "close enough" when it comes to "bringing out" the details.


#4). Using SYSM=2 and bringing the MID5 settings back into the equation -- I still couldn't seem to find anything better than my current "standard" mode settings, although again, this is "seat of the pants" stuff -- I tried to "back off" on MHYE/MHCE/etc, and also tried to "back off" several of the 2170P-3 settings while adjusting MID5 settings as necessary to try to find a better "compromise". I couldn't find one, even if the only MID5 settings that weren't "0" were MHYL=3, MHYE=1 -- For example, that resulted in "ringing" in the text on the DVD player setup menu as compared to my "standard" mode settings. I did however end up spending quite a bit of time looking closely at a CTLV setting of "1", instead of "0", and, if anything, it looks like it might be possible a different CTLV setting may be something I might want to look at more.


#5). While I didn't spend much time with test patterns for anything of importance(and can only use MS with the patterns ADU posted, as I don't have a DVD recorder), perhaps of some interest - some of the most apparent "changes" I noticed using various test patterns involved the "sharpness" bars in THX optimizer when changing values for "SHFO, F1LV or LTMD/LTLV", and the boundries/edges between color bars (such as from AVIA) and adjusting "CTLV". The effects of increasing LTLV with LTMD=1 were also noticable on THX optimizer "black level"("brightness") adjustment screen.


Update: Oh - for all above experiments, I left user menu Sharpness slider at 31 - 30~31 is also what I have it for normal viewing with "standard or movie" pic modes.


----------



## loadams

Thanks Ken for your reply, will probably go in that direction.


And yes, after watching 480p for a number of years, watching 480i w/ tweaks is very pleasing !!! Great stuff as always guys.


----------



## ADU

A couple more thoughts on the 2170P-3 edge controls...


SYSM

So far SYSM=3 seems to be giving a bit of a biased look to edges on my TV that's a bit uncomfortable to my eyes. It's possible that tinkering with other controls may be able to make this a bit more manageable, but so far I haven't spent much time on that, and have been focusing more attention on SYSM=1 and SYSM=2. Edge distortion is lowest with SYSM=1 at nominal Sharpness on my TV. SYSM=2 seems a little "noisier" looking, but I can see alot of potential in the higher granularity and generally better definition it seems to confer especially to lighter details and shadow information in the picture versus SYSM=1.


Per something Napoleon D said in another thread, rather than simply randomly flipping back and forth between the different SYSM settings while working with the other controls, I think there's probably something to be said for focusing attention on one SYSM setting at time (once you've got a pretty good grasp of the effect each 2170P-3 edge control has). And trying to break down the best configuration of edge controls to go with that particular SYSM setting. Then move on and repeat the process with the next SYSM setting, working in sort of hierachical fashion to narrow down the best configurations or range of potential adjustments for each (with a given input/signal).


However, I would not make the mistake of assuming that just because a particular 2170P-3 parameter doesn't "help" with one SYSM setting, that that control should necessarily be thrown out of the mix for the other SYSM configurations. Because as mentioned above some controls seem to work with finer granularity and more subtle effect with SYSM=2/3 than they do with SYSM=1. I'm thinking particularly of F1LV here, which seems to have a much finer and potentially more beneficial "defining" effect with SYSM=2/3 than with SYSM=1.


SHF0

In addition to a loosening (SHF0=0) and tightening (SHF0=1) effect, I think I'd also describe SHF0 as having sort of a deepening (SHF0=0) versus shallowing (SHF0=1) effect on the picture. The higher "frequency" of the detail with SHF0=1 seems to "flatten" the picture a bit. Although one generally thinks of depth as being a good thing, I wouldn't necessarily describe the shallowing effect of SHF0=1 as "bad" on my TV. Although it seems to add a bit more noise/grain/texture, whatever you want to call it, the shallow picture may perhaps be a little easier on my eyes in some ways. The greater depth, clarity, looseness of SHF0=0 has some positives as well though. So far, it's been kind of a tough call. Another way I'd describe the difference is SHF0=0 seems more "TV-like", and SHF0=1 seems more "monitor-like", if that means anything.


Since there only two choices here, one might want to try to work out separate configurations for each, and then decide which is preferred.


PROV

No noteworthy additions on this yet.


F1LV

Although this generates fairly coarse looking "noise" with SYSM=1, as mentioned above it seems to have some greater potential with SYSM=2/3, and may have some value in elevating shadow information so it's a bit less strenuous on the eyes.


LTMD=0/LTLV=1-3

Still tinkering with this. Haven't found much use for it yet, but might have some potential in small amounts with certain configurations. And might be useful in cleaning up especially noisy signals. The effect LTMD=0 has at high LTLV settings reminds me alot of the "Vivid" mode on Panasonic plasmas, the way it smooths details similar in color/intensity, and over-defines high-contrast edges.


LTMD=1/LTLV=1-3

Although this seemed to have potential for better-defining shadow detail with SYSM=1, my enthusiasm for it has diminished a bit after watching it for awhile. The effect of this control is pretty heavy-handed (especially with the greater "granularity" that's inherent with SYSM=2/3), and after playing a bit more with some of the other controls it seems as if there may be other ways of working out shadow issues with possibly a bit more finesse. If more "definition" or "edge" is all you seek though, look no further than LTMD=1.


CTLV

0=highest color saturation at edges. 3=the least, and generally softest-looking color detail. Seems fairly straight forward.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> #1) I thought it was interesting what one can do w/o use of MID5 column when one knows a little more of what is going on with these 2170P-3 settings.



Good point Jeff. Since the signal I use bypasses the digital MID controls, the 2170P-3 analog controls are basically the only ones I have for tweaking edge detail on my TV (aside from Clear Edge VM, which I've mostly ignored so far, and basic Sharpness.)


> Quote:
> Nevertheless, I wonder if it is possible we might also be getting something a little different on this depending upon if we are using SFP tube or no, or maybe there are some other differences between the different models which may be involved.



Quite possibly, if not probably. Using the MID controls & VM could certainly put a different spin on what settings work best as well.


Even if the "best settings" for these edge controls follows no particular pattern from one TV/user to another (or even one input/signal to another), I think you may be able to get a better feeling for the behavior of these controls and possibly where they might benefit you by playing around with them.


> Quote:
> I think it was (with LTMD=1) LTLV at a higher value which "helped" the most with this, concerning an overall increase in "sharpness" using SYSM=3. However, although I can see where it would be beneficial in some cases, one issue I had with raising LTLV is that I didn't really *need* to increase "shadow detail".



Another good point. See some of my related and somewhat similar impressions above.


> Quote:
> for all above experiments, I left user menu Sharpness slider at 31 - 30~31 is also what I have it for normal viewing with "standard or movie" pic modes.



This is similar to what I refer to as "nominal" sharpness in my earlier post. Nominal sharpness to me is the setting which produces the least edge distortion, but without introducing unwanted "softening" effects either. On my TV it's around (but a few ticks below) the middle of the slider (and I've reconfigured 2170P-4/USHP to make that setting my Pro mode default.) Lately I've been using this pattern to set that adjustment, looking, as I say, for minimum sharpening _or_ softening distortions on the vertical lines.


Since there are other Sharpness offsets in the SM (such as 2170P-3/SHOF), the adjustment of this setting could vary a bit for different inputs/signals.


Tks for the kudos btw. Just trying to expand a bit more on Ken's already detailed info on these controls earlier in the thread.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I feed 480p via component inputs, there is a limit on the detail somewhere -- the picture has lost some important texture information, and it can't be recovered.



Very interesting. Using component input -- While I do find I need to do "more" with the image processing settings for 480p DVD that is the case anywhere else -- I haven't really noticed a limit on detail. Maybe I should try to look into this in more detail.


Problem is, I've never been happy with the 480i from this particular player(Zenith DVD2381), including when using it with other sets, but I've allways been very happy with 480p from it.


Oh BTW Ken -- I'd responded to your PM reply and also had sent you another PM yesterday/etc with a few updates on various matters. But, the way the email notifications seem to "work"(or not work), sometimes(or maybe I managed not to click on the read recepit "OK" button for your message), I'm not sure whether you've seen those yet or not, if not hopefully they are in your PM inbox.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So so far, it's been kin dof tough call. Another way I'd describe the difference is SHF0=0 seems more "TV-like", and SHF0=1 seems more "monitor-like", if that means anything.



What excellent descriptions! I have never been able to put into words my thoughts about SHF0, now I have some words I can use. There was a period over about 3 months that I changed nothing else except SHF0 for various inputs. For those 3 months, I was using SHFO=0, but finally decided I liked that "flat", "tightened" response and "monitor-like" aspect of SHF0=1 better, and I've been using it ever since.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Per something Napoleon D said in another thread, rather than simply randomly flipping back and forth between the different SYSM settings while working with the other controls, I think there's probably something to be said for focusing attention on one SYSM setting at time (once you got pretty good grasp of the effect each 2170P-3 edge control has). And trying to break down the best configuration of edge controls to go with that particular SYSM setting. Then move on and repeat the process with the next SYSM setting, working in sort of hierachical fashion to narrow down the best configurations or range of potential adjustments for each (with a given input/signal).
> 
> 
> However, I would not make the mistake of assuming that just because one particular 2170P-3 parameter does"help" with one SYSM setting, that that control should necessarily be thrown out of the mix for the other SYSM configurations. Because as mentioned above some controls seem to work with finer granularity and more subtle effect with SYSM=2/3 than they do with SYSM=1. I'm thinking particularly of F1LV here, which seems to have a much finer and potential more beneficial "defining" effect with SYSM=2/3 than with SYSM=1.



I agree. I think it's probably best to spend quite a LOT of time "equalizing" other controls with the Use of a single SYSM setting and finding what is best. In my case, concerning 480p DVD specifically - over the past ~7 months, that's involved long periods using either SYSM=2 or SYSM-3 for 480p with various other settings, and generally using Ken Tech's finding as a "base" to work from and do "fine tuning" from there.


Last night -- Given my quick "seat of pants" experiments I explained in last post on this -- I should note some of my "experiments" and what I found were not only based on that more "seat of the pants" experimenting session, but also from previous occasions when I'd also played around with those settings more extensively with "SYSM=2" or "SYSM=3", but over much longer periods of time. The info ADU has posted did however, greatly help me not only "put 2+2 toghether" concerning what those controls were actually doing so to speak, but also helped me to find better results with SYSM=3 and 480p DVD than I had been able to come across in previous experiments.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Although the "best settings" for these may follow not particular pattern of consistency from one TV/user to another (or even one input/signal to another), I think you may be able to get a better feeling for the behavior of these controls and possibly where they might benefit you by playing around with them.



Absolutely, very well put. In my case, it has turned out to be the case that Ken Tech's findings(especially the most recent) have worked out very, very well for me, and other than fine tuning the MID5 Columns, I haven't really been able to "add" any signifcant improvments to using the settings he has come up with - and, it hasn't really been necessary, either.


The only real exception to that was for 480p DVD "back" when I was using SYSM=3 for everything. Prior to the info in his Post #707, I also wished I'd found the time to experiment more with SYSM=2 for other inputs besides DVD, as well as a couple of other things in 3dcomb and 2101-3 pertaining to "SD" via DRC from S-video or internal "RF" tuner. I also "used" to occasionally use a pic mode set up to use a MID5 Column with all "zero's" for all inputs(given use of SYSM=3, and 2170P-3 settings very similar to those in brackets in my earlier post).


Besides, it's "fun" to play around with, when I have the time. Perhaps Especially when you already have a good set of "settings" set up in one Pic mode that are working well for you and can just play around with trying to make improvments in another, "experimental" pic mode you have set up. Ok, sure, I'm a little crazy to enjoy such leisure activities ...




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (and I've reconfigured 2170P-4/USHP to make that setting my Pro mode default.)



Just a FYI -- Even though it's shown in the XBR960 servicecode listings, there is no 2170P-4 UPIC~UTMP, on my KD34XBR960. I have 2170P-4/#6 SHUO, then next is 2170P-4/#7 RYR. "GAMM is control #11", for instance, and so on.


UPIC~UTMP are However present in either the "QM" or "QT"(I'll have to look to be sure which one) "undocumented" sections of SM -- I do recall looking at UPIC at one point to see if I could see what it does, and it seems to behave quite "differently" than is the case with your XBR800. If I recall correctly, it has seperate values per pic mode, and instead of actually "doing anything", it merely contains info on the Set defaults for the "picture" slider for the various picture modes -- On the XBR960, there are "little dots" on the sliders which correspond to where the slider was for the set defaults for the diffierent pic modes, and perhaps that may be what UPIC~UTMP are used for on my set -- to place those little "dots".


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A couple more thoughts on the 2170P-3 edge controls...
> 
> 
> SYSM
> 
> So far SYSM=3 seems to be giving a bit of a biased look to edges on my TV that's a bit uncomfortable to my eyes. It's possible that tinkering with other controls may be able to make this a bit more manageable, but so far I haven't spend much time trying to do that, and have been focusing more of my attention on SYSM=1 and SYSM=2. Edge distortion is lowest with SYSM=1 at nominal Sharpness. SYSM=2 seems a little "noisier" looking, but I can see alot of potential in the higher granularity and generally better definition it seems to confer especially to lighter details and shadow information in the picture versus SYSM=1....



ADU,


This confuses me a bit. And maybe I've been misusing the terminology. I have been equating edge distortion with noisiness or harshness. I found on my set that SYSM=3 was the smoothest, least harsh setting. I find now that SYSM=2 or 1 seems too sharp or too harsh.


When I see you indicating that edge distortion is lowest with SYSM=1 at nominal sharpness, I sense that I've been misunderstanding the terminology at the least.


Would you be so kind as to help me here? I need to be in sync with how y'all are describing what you're seeing or I'll be bouncing all over the place.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FWIW - With ADU's excellent info on the relevant P2170-3 settings printed out and brought along -- Played around with these in a "seat of the pants" manner a little last night With KD34XBR960 and 480p DVD(Zenith DVD2381) via component input. Difficult to say how much of this, if any is "specific" to my DVD player.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A couple more thoughts on the 2170P-3 edge controls...



These entire posts were interesting to me because they describe some of what I have observed in different words. I think we're verging on discussing "flavor," here! In particular . . .


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So so far, it's been kin dof tough call. Another way I'd describe the difference is SHF0=0 seems more "TV-like", and SHF0=1 seems more "monitor-like", if that means anything.



Yep, this works for me, too. I am trying to avoid the "TV" look and going for something more film-like, more photographic. One of the signatures of the TV look, I think, is the smoothing of fine texture along with oversharpening of medium-fine detail. I generally screen these parameters for their effect on fine texture, and if it is attenuated for some settings, then those settings are _verboten_ on my set. SHF0 is one of those, and so I have abandoned it, leaving it at 1.


> Quote:
> #14 MVYL - 3
> 
> #15 MVYE - 1



The trouble with vertical sharpening is that its scope of action (distance) is always a minimum of one scan line, and on 480i/p material, that's not too fine! My DVD player has a little built-in, so I don't dare add more. Further, if one is trying to rescue fairly soft video, a bit of vertical sharpening "balances out" whatever horizintal sharpening you may be adding. Many good video cameras and both HD and SD broadcasts show an irreducable vertical sharpening, too. But I generally don't like its effect on good source video. What you've listed is a very small amount, however, and, believe it or not, there is still a just-detectable amount still in effect with MVYE=0 if MVYL=3. MVYL has to be at 0 to shut it off completely.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So far SYSM=3 seems to be giving a bit of a biased look to edges on my TV that's a bit uncomfortable to my eyes.



I have come to think of it in audio tone-control terms: SYSM=3 raises high frequencies, but as a *plateau,* much like the standard trebel control on a stereo. When cranked up, there is a response-curve ramp-up at some frequency, and then it levels off for higher frequencies. Thus, _very_ fine detail is not boosted proportionately to fine detail but equal to it. SYSM=2, however, seems to me more like a _tilting_ ramp upwards on the high-frequency response curve. When cranked above "neutral", medium detail is enhanced a bit, fine detail a lot more, and the finest textures most of all. So it has a very different "look" from SYSM=3. At a given SYSM=3 Sharpness boost setting, one could add those finest textures, I guess, by having a corresponding MID5 setting for MHYE. Trouble is, MHYE is *fixed* and SYSM is variable. So it would appear balanced only at one Sharpness setting -- not a very versatile use of Sharpness.


SYSM=0/1 is scary to me! Its scope is quite large (distance of action), and it creates weird double-edge ghosts when cranked _down_. I have a feeling it was intended for heroic image-rescue, but I can't match it up with anything I use as a source.


> Quote:
> F1LV: Although this generates fairly coarse looking "noise" with SYSM=1, as mentioned above it seems to have some greater potential with SYSM=2/3, and may have some value in terms of "elevating" shadow information so it's a bit less strenuous on the eyes.



'Scuse a little nitpicking, here: none of these really "generate" noise; I think you meant "accentuate" for what noise that's already present. I'm one of those lucky enough to have impeccable analog-cable service, and so I see very little noise as I try to optimize these SD broadcasts. My greatest source of noise is from grainy DVDs, and they abound! E.g. _The Matrix trilogy_ is *very* sharp, but the film grain is clearly visible on smooth textures. In-player 3DNR is very useful, here.


> Quote:
> CTLV: 0=highest color saturation at edges. 3=the least, and generally softest-looking color detail. Seems fairly straight forward.



Very clear description. Motivates me to experiment, too. Gotta keep an open mind!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Very interesting. Using component input -- While I do find I need to do "more" with the image processing settings for 480p DVD that is the case anywhere else -- I haven't really noticed a limit on detail. Maybe I should try to look into this in more detail.
> 
> 
> Problem is, I've never been happy with the 480i from this particular player(Zenith DVD2381), including when using it with other sets, but I've allways been very happy with 480p from it.



What is particularly frustrating is that, absent a few $$$ pieces of test equipment, none of us can really tell whether a particular artifact or characteristis is caused by the source (say, DVD) or the TV. My Panasonic S97 is well-known to have stunning component output, and I have read reviews of other players who performs far less well on component than HDMI. Component performance seems to vary a lot!


Another example: I don't like the *very* soft look to my player's upscaling to 1080i over HDMI -- on my TV, anyway. I have a friend who just bought the Sony D50XBR1 SXRD 1080i RP unit. He bought the same player I have. His component desplay is good, but is forced to upcscale to 1080p. *His* 1080i over HDMI is great from this player! Uh . . . sort of implicates the 1080i/HDMI capabilities of our beloved TVs, eh? Go figure! 1080i digital input on a (purported) 1080i-native TV. Wonder where the fault lies in the processing chain.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Lately I've been using this pattern to set that adjustment, looking, as I say, for minimum sharpening _or_ softening distortions on the vertical lines.



It's good to double-check with edges that are not part of 1-2-pixel lines, too, since a 1-pixel line can cause an abnormal ringing that almost never appears in real program material. The "Sharpness" pattern on the AVIA disk is particularly revealing, with its crossed 1, 2, 3, and 4-pixel lines, plus white and black blocks that are devoid of antialiasing. (The circle and text are antialiased.)


Of further help on the same disk are the various sub-menus. On the big colorful main menu screen, almost everything *is* antialiased (softened) slightly, but the sub-menus are hard-edged graphics. Getting those images free of artifacts -- or even the main menu -- is quite an acid test!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This confuses me a bit. And maybe I've been misusing the terminology. I have been equating edge distortion with noisiness or harshness. I found on my set that SYSM=3 was the smoothest, least harsh setting. I find now that SYSM=2 or 1 seems too sharp or too harsh.



We're all reduced to metaphor and simile. Next thing you know, we'll all be referring to "airy" detail and "muddy" lower-upper-mid-bass. Er, I mean -mid-detail. (Sorry. I have worked in the high-end audio industry. Hope nobody holds that against me!)


I make all of my comments about edges from close observations, ignoring the picture -- and generally using known test patterns, the AVIA disk being especially valuable. Beyond that, there are certain frames on _Monsters, Inc_ and other good DVDs that are revealing of texture and diagonal/curving fine lines (Sully's hair!). I see ringing and overshoot mostly from this close-up vantage point.


But when I sit down to watch a known-good DVD at a reasonable distance, paying attention to the overall fidelity of the image, I see characteristics that are best described as "smooth" or "harsh" or "grainy" or, well, *ugly* or *beautiful.* The eye/brain combination is integrating everything and "locking" onto the image. The 11pm newscasts here all all different from each other, but one is *very* fine. I can look at the faces of these (perfectly-lighted) newsreaders, and they might jump out as nearly 3D and authentic, or have lots of texture and detail but are *wrong* somehow. That's how I've come to reject certain of the filters: They do something that theoretically *should* help (according to test-pattern observations) but something's not right when viewing real video.


So, for me, ringing, edge-distortion, overshoot -- those are all thing I can see and identify only up close. What effect they have on real video I describe as harsh, unauthentic, finely-detailed, balanced, "TV" look, etc. Occasionally something that looks like (e.g.) overshoot on a test pattern really helps real-world viewing. I think that's the "compensation" factor coming into play. Describing it here is kinda tough.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

I've been tinkering with those MIDE-5 tables last year,and aftyer al the tweaking i come to the conclusion that simply turining them all offto 0 is the best solution to a better picture quality.


No matter how many you have on or little as possible, you r still adding stuff to the picture that just is'nt there.You can't expect a stock honda to beat a porsche







lol.


Maybe it's me, but i find the less enhancements the better the PQ looks and more cleaner iand sharper it looks.With edge enhancements on it agve me a sharp picture but it was unnaturaly sharp kind of like a cookie cutter sharpness appearance.


I would rather have my tv do no processing and just feed the signal to the screen,any EE will be from the source material not my tv set.


The PQ looks razor sharp without them EE enhancemnts,so they really are'nt neccessary it just makes the PQ unnatural.With EE off the PQ is naturally sharp they way film should be.


just my 2 cents.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just a FYI -- Even though it's shown in the XBR960 servicecode listings, there is no 2170P-4 UPIC~UTMP, on my KD34XBR960. I have 2170P-4/#6 SHUO, then next is 2170P-4/#7 RYR. "GAMM is control #11", for instance, and so on.



Interesting.


> Quote:
> UPIC~UTMP are However present in either the "QM" or "QT"(I'll have to look to be sure which one) "undocumented" sections of SM -- I do recall looking at UPIC at one point to see if I could see what it does, and it seems to behave quite "differently" than is the case with your XBR800. If I recall correctly, it has seperate values per pic mode, and instead of actually "doing anything", it merely contains info on the Set defaults for the "picture" slider for the various picture modes -- On the XBR960, there are "little dots" on the sliders which correspond to where the slider was for the set defaults for the diffierent pic modes, and perhaps that may be what UPIC~UTMP are used for on my set -- to place those little "dots".



Actually that sounds pretty much the same as on the XBR800. On the XBR800, 2170P-4/UPIC through UTMP configure the default positions of the sliders and temp settings for each picture mode in the User Menu. For slider controls, the numbers correspond to ticks, with 0 representing the first tick, and 31 representing 32 ticks. If, for example, you wanted the Brightness slider to default to say 27 ticks instead of the usual 32 in Pro mode, you could change that by making UBRT=26. Same for Sharpness, Contrast, etc.


So why use this approach to reconfigure Sharpness? Well, because the 2170P-3/SHOF sharpness offset is already at it's lowest setting for the DVI signal/input I'm using on my XBR800, and Sharpness is still not "optimal" w/o further reducing the slider in the User menu.


Perhaps I should have mentioned these adjustments earlier when you were having some of your Brightness dilemmas. But I figured you were probably already aware of this, and wanting to find a way to get Brightness in the SM to work with the existing slider configs in the User Menu.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've been tinkering with those MIDE-5 tables last year,and aftyer al the tweaking i come to the conclusion that simply turining them all offto 0 is the best solution to a better picture quality.
> 
> 
> No matter how many you have on or little as possible, you r still adding stuff to the picture that just is'nt there.You can't expect a stock honda to beat a porsche
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol.
> 
> 
> Maybe it's me, but i find the less enhancements the better the PQ looks and more cleaner iand sharper it looks.With edge enhancements on it agve me a sharp picture but it was unnaturaly sharp kind of like a cookie cutter sharpness appearance.
> 
> 
> I would rather have my tv do no processing and just feed the signal to the screen,any EE will be from the source material not my tv set.
> 
> 
> The PQ looks razor sharp without them EE enhancemnts,so they really are'nt neccessary it just makes the PQ unnatural.With EE off the PQ is naturally sharp they way film should be.
> 
> 
> just my 2 cents.



Matt,


I really do understand where you're coming from.


I'm just wondering - don't you think there's a chance that there is some detail that may be there, but not yet visible? Kinda like when it's a dark scene and by turning up brightness you find that there is detail you didn't even know was there? So maybe you bump up your brightness setting just a little so you can see what the director intended for you to see.


Now that's not adding anything to the signal, it's just "bringing out" or "exposing" the detail.


My interest is in exposing as much of the "intended" detail as I can. And I see there may be more than one way of doing that. And it's important to understand that our tv sets, as they've been manufactured and set-up at the factory, may not come to us in such a condition that we can view all this intended wonderful detail - that's why we calibrate right?


The first task is to explore the settings to discover those that "expose" those details without adding things in.


The second comes from having a full understanding of what the tv's s/w and h/w is doing to the signals. We might come to learn that there's circuits or code that actually "dial back" or attenuate details within the signal so that something must be done to "dial" those details back in. But maybe there's no suitable adjustment that does this, and the signal has to be massaged so that, in the viewers perception, from the appropriate viewing distance, this once attenuated "detail" is now exposed. And it could very well be that the only way to see this detail is by "adding in" something, possibly a little edge enhancement, so we can "perceive" what would have been there.


Either approach is simply to bring out what we were supposed to see. This is why I don't exclude the possibility of some edge enhancement.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Perhaps I should have mentioned these adjustments earlier when you were having some of your Brightness dilemmas. But I figured you were probably already aware of this, and wanting to find a way to get Brightness in the SM to work with the existing slider configs in the User Menu.



1st off, please stay with me here until the next section and attached screenshot ....


No, there was no need for you to mention those, but thanks. I'm afraid you are still misunderstanding the issue I had with getting the "picture" slider centered, instead of using it at "24" which worked just perfectly, all I was trying to do was to get the picture slider to read "31"(32 ticks) and achieve the same results as was the case with "24"(25 ticks). I didn't have any problem "issues" whatsoever with brightness, or "contrast" or balancing those(or the "sharpness slider either for that matter) among inputs/etc, just wanted to center the Picture slider at "31".


I perhaps used the wrong terminology --- In those posts I was talking about "brightness" as it relates to "white balance" and "contrast", NOT brightness as it refers to the "brightness" slider, or "black levels", the latter I took care of long ago with 2170P-3 UBOF and 2170P-1 SBRT.


It's all water under the bridge, now though, as I've already explained I was able to figure it out using a lower value for 2170P4 SPIO (and, long ago I had already used 2170P-4/**** to balance contrast among inputs, although I touched those up a bit anyway when I was working on this). Sorry, I probably did not do a good job explaining that, but I can't think of a better way to say it than I already have(along the lines of what Ken said, sometimes it is awfully difficult for me to talk about these issues and know that my comments are "understandable" by others), and I'm afraid going into that again and repeating it again won't be useful.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Interesting.Actually that sounds pretty much the same as on the XBR800. On the XBR800, 2170P-4/UPIC through UTMP configure the default positions of the sliders and temp settings for each picture mode in the User Menu. For slider controls, the numbers correspond to ticks, with 0 representing the first tick, and 31 representing 32 ticks. If, for example, you wanted the Brightness slider to default to say 27 ticks instead of the usual 32 in Pro mode, you could change that by making UBRT=26. Same for Sharpness, Contrast, etc.
> 
> 
> So why use this approach to reconfigure Sharpness? Well, because the 2170P-3/SHOF sharpness offset is already at it's lowest setting for the DVI signal/input I'm using on my XBR800, and Sharpness is still not "optimal" w/o further reducing the slider in the User menu.
> 
> .



Interesting. I don't think it's quite working the same, at least with "mode memory" turned on on 34XBR960 in as "useful" a manner.


Fom what I recall from checking this, On KD34XBR960, QM UPIC~UTMP do nothing to actually "configure" the sliders(update: except to allow you to hit "reset" button to return to a certian set of default values as Ken mentions below/End update) , other than if you use the little "dots" shown in the slider menu as a reference to return the values for the sliders back to factory defaults for any given pic mode, or if you change the values for UPIC~UTMP, your "new" values would correspond to new posistions for these "little dots", which otherwise mark the factory defaults for the sliders for the different pic modes.


They only SHOW you [update again : or let you use the reset button to return to a certian set of "defaults" - either the factory, or values you've set up ; end update], in the "video" user menu what those factory defaults were, with little "dots". They don't effect what happens to the picture, you do that by changing the slider yourself, which you can do on KD34XBR960 in a Input specific manner(in other words you can use different slider values for different inputs(or pic modes for that matter with "mode memory/On) by turning "mode memory" on in user menu, or you can use the same slider "settings" for all inputs by turning "mode memory" to : off.


:update :


Again, as noted in my reply to Ken farther below - sorry ADU for my "misunderstanding" of what you were talking about on this -- Entirely my fault, but, rather than editing them except for these updates as noted, I think I'll go ahead and leave my comments as they were in this post, if nothing other than a demonstration of how easy it can be to "misread", or "misinterpet" things - again, in this case, entirely MY fault.


Because of the availability "mode memory: On" function and different slider settings(or other input/scan rate/etc. offset controls available in SM - such as "UBOF") for all the different sources I use, I've never really thought of a reason to make use of the reset button, or to define a certian set of "defaults" with QM UPIC~UTMP settings for the User mode "sliders" ... Although, thinking about it more, it could perhaps be useful for me in order to more quickly "switch" to a "default" set of slider settings when "checking" things, or, perhaps to set the sliders quickly back to my "normal" mid range settings after adjusting to preference to compensate for "differences in programming material."


:end update


Perhaps a picture is worth 1,000 words. So, attached is screenshot "sliderdots.jpg"(pardon the quality of the shot and the reflection from a lamp in the room) -- I've adjusted the sliders(this is NOT what I use them at, LOL) so you can see all the "little white dots" which UPIC~UTMP correspond to for "factory Mode" for each slider. For instance -- UBRT for this Pic mode = 32, and that's right where the little white dot is for the "brightness" slider that shows the "brightness" slider factory default for this pic mode. The "brightness" slider would JUST "cover up" the little white dot if I had the slider set at "31" as I normally do. If I change QM/UBRT to "45" for this pic mode, the little white dot will move up to correspond with the "44" value for the slider itself, but, it doesn't effect the actual value of the slider itself in any way shape or form -- nothing else will change except the posistion of that little white dot. Perhaps it may behave differently however if I wasn't using "mode memory" set to "on" - I didn't try that.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No matter how many you have on or little as possible, you r still adding stuff to the picture that just is'nt there.



Actually you are increrasing the level of stuff that *is* there, but if you don't like the look, then by all means leave them all at zero. You have to please only yourself in this matter. But I wouldn't advise that this is somehow a "correct" setting.


> Quote:
> Maybe it's me, but i find the less enhancements the better the PQ looks and more cleaner iand sharper it looks.With edge enhancements on it agve me a sharp picture but it was unnaturaly sharp kind of like a cookie cutter sharpness appearance.



Then you really had too much of something added in, and maybe it came from *before* the MID processing. If the source is 480i, it could be the 2103 chip, which adds a horrible "TV-like" edginess if left untamed.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> They only SHOW you, in the "video" user menu what those factory defaults were, with little "dots". They don't effect what happens to the picture, you do that by changing the slider yourself



Doesn't clicking the Reset button on the remote (or is it in the user menus?) move the sliders to the "default" positions all at once? Then these presets establish what those "factory" settings will be. On my 36XS955, it's moot, as those "dots" are established by read-only settings in one of the "blue" SM groups.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Doesn't clicking the Reset button on the remote (or is it in the user menus?) move the sliders to the "default" positions all at once?



Yes, and although I had a hard time understanding ( *my fault* Not his) I realize now that's the function ADU is likely referring to.


I suppose that would be useful if either/or : #1). you couldn't set up different slider settings for different inputs if Mode memory = on isn't available on your set model, or 2). if you have chosen to use "mode memory" off, or 3). also to return to "preferred" values in any case when experimenting or making certian adjustments in SM relating to the slider in question. OR Perhaps most importantly, 4). To quickly return to your "preferred" settings after making adjustments to the sliders to compensate for differences in program material.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Then these presets establish what those "factory" settings will be. On my 36XS955, it's moot, as those "dots" are established by read-only settings in one of the "blue" SM groups.



On my KD34XBR960 It's in the "blue" QM section - For instance, UBRT is "QM" Control #15. It's not read only, though, I just confirmed this by Changing "UBRT" for "standard" pic mode from "32" to "46" and writing the change ... The white dot position changed for the brightness slider, and it stayed that way(at 46) after I powered the set off, and powered it back up outside of SM.


Note that the white dot didn't change when I was "viewing" the user "video" settings while making the change, but after I wrote the change, exited the User menu, then reentered the user menu, it had changed to reflect my new value.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Matt,
> 
> 
> I really do understand where you're coming from.
> 
> 
> I'm just wondering - don't you think there's a chance that there is some detail that may be there, but not yet visible? Kinda like when it's a dark scene and by turning up brightness you find that there is detail you didn't even know was there? So maybe you bump up your brightness setting just a little so you can see what the director intended for you to see.
> 
> 
> Now that's not adding anything to the signal, it's just "bringing out" or "exposing" the detail.
> 
> 
> My interest is in exposing as much of the "intended" detail as I can. And I see there may be more than one way of doing that. And it's important to understand that our tv sets, as they've been manufactured and set-up at the factory, may not come to us in such a condition that we can view all this intended wonderful detail - that's why we calibrate right?
> 
> 
> The first task is to explore the settings to discover those that "expose" those details without adding things in.
> 
> 
> The second comes from having a full understanding of what the tv's s/w and h/w is doing to the signals. We might come to learn that there's circuits or code that actually "dial back" or attenuate details within the signal so that something must be done to "dial" those details back in. But maybe there's no suitable adjustment that does this, and the signal has to be massaged so that, in the viewers perception, from the appropriate viewing distance, this once attenuated "detail" is now exposed. And it could very well be that the only way to see this detail is by "adding in" something, possibly a little edge enhancement, so we can "perceive" what would have been there.
> 
> 
> Either approach is simply to bring out what we were supposed to see. This is why I don't exclude the possibility of some edge enhancement.



Steve i understand what your getting at but you have to understand about the source material as well.


DVD for example, it's not going to look any sharper than what i see,it's as good as it gets, if your expecting ultra sharp pictures that detail just is'nt there..By that thought your thinking about HDTV and you are wanting HD resolution from a DVD that's only limited to 480i, it's just not possible to add stuff that's not there.


I've fiddled with those settings a while back on the MIDE5 table when i first got my sony in 2004, and the only sharpness enhancemnt i have seen from using that MIDE5 table is just giving the Picture a cookie cutter appearance.It tricks the eyes into being sharper by making the outlines thicker,but in reality it's just making the picture unnaturely sharp and grainy.


I'm satisfied with no enhancemnts being done to the picture, and DVD on my set is being produced as good as it can possibly be,it's not going to get any sharper,by then your just thinking HD when it's only a DVD resolution


I guess to get to the point what i'm saying is that your expecting too much from DVD.DVD is not HD, people are expecting HD resolutions from DVD when the detail just is'nt there in the first place.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> YOn my KD34XBR960 It's in the "blue" QM section - For instance, UBRT is "QM" Control #15. It's not read only, though, I just confirmed this by Changing "UBRT" for "standard" pic mode from "32" to "46" and writing the change ... The white dot position changed for the brightness slider, and it stayed that way(at 46) after I powered the set off, and powered it back up outside of SM.



Well, well, if this is true for my set too, I will be a very happy camper, as I am always returning my menu sliders to "center" when tuning in new program material. I thought I tried this last spring. I will try again and report back!


----------



## ADU

Hmm. Not familiar with the mode memory feature, so perhaps that's something that was added after the XBR800s. And perhaps that's why the UPIC - UTMP controls are in different places in the SM. The User Menus aren't very smart on the XBR800. From what I gather from your remarks above, it sounds like my TV operates the same as yours with mode memory OFF.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kentech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Doesn't clicking the Reset button on the remote (or is it in the user menus?) move the sliders to the "default" positions all at once?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I realize now that's the function ADU is likely referring to.



Precisely. So far, Sharpness (USHP) is the only User control I've reconfigured like this, because as mentioned before, it simply wasn't possible to drop the value low enough in the SM to fit my prefered level to the default Pro/USHP slider setting of 32 ticks (or dots as the case may be).


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kentech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> if this is true for my set too, I will be a very happy camper, as I am always returning my menu sliders to "center" when tuning in new program material.



I'd give it a try Ken. As Jeff mentions, you may not see any change to the picture while adjusting UPIC - UTMP in the SM. But when you press RESET on the remote, the User Menu sliders should snap to the new positions. Sorry for doing such a lousy job of explaining this earlier.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmm. Not familiar with the mode memory feature, so perhaps that's something that was added after the XBR800s.



I think I'd read somewhere(I think it was in a review of the XBR960 in one of the A/V mags) it is a new feature they added to at least some of 2004 "line" of sets -- not sure which all models are included. But, maybe the XBR910's have it as well, don't know.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> . Sorry for doing such a lousy job of explaining this earlier.



Again, it was MY misunderstanding - My fault, and again my apologies -- Thought you did a fine job after Ken mentioned the reset button and I realized what you were talking about .... If you would have mentioned the "reset" button, what you were talking about would have finally made it "into" my thick skull ...


Would be interested if Ken or anyone else finds a setting on this to be able to control the user menu "ClearEdge VM" choice when you hit the reset button. If there is one in SM somewhere, I couldn't seem to find it, so it reverts to factory defaults for the "clear edge VM" settings for different pic modes when you press reset button : defaults to "high" Clearedge VM setting for vivid, and standard(I think, might be remembering that one wrong), and "low" for Movie Pic mode, and "off" for "pro", which makes it less useful for me given my customized pic modes, and that I have "standard" for normal viewing.


It also didn't work for "mode memory=on" to turn "mode memory=off" first and set these settings just one time for all inputs, and have the my settings for the "little dots"(centered) actually apply to the sliders for all inputs given use of reset button/etc after I turned "mode memory=On" back on. Except for "pro" pic mode of course, which already had centered values with the factory defaults for all inputs.


So, with Mode memory set to "on", I had to go through every input and change QM/UPIC~UTMP for all inputs+pic modes to my preferred values.


I did learn something useful out of this that I'd never noticed before, as I'm not using HDMI currently, and normally have the HDMI input ("video 7") set up as "skipped" in User menu : I found I can "look at"(or modify) the HDMI specific SM columns when I'm switched to "video 7"(the HDMI input on this set). Where there are scan rate specific settings, looks like It's only 480i I can "look" at. Even though there's not a real "signal" there, the "HDMI" info screen in "HDMI Info" section of SM shows "480i 4x3". Checked a few values for HDMI specific columns such as "CBGN~YGN" settings for HDMI just to make sure. So, I can use that to some degree to set up HDMI specific settings for customizing pic modes, as well as (but just for 480i apparently) the 480i HDMI specific P2170-3 image processing settings - This is helpful as that way I won't have as much "work" to do when I add a HDMI device in the future.


Funny thing -- -- I recall trying it once back when I first got the set just to see if the button worked, but this time I had to go into the owner's manual to help me "figure out" how the reset button worked (LOL) -- It says you have to be in the "video" menu to use the reset button to reset the picture settings to "factory defaults" ... Puzzling, since I tried selecting the "video" menu Icon from the menu (in which case the video menu appears), but nothing happened when I hit "reset" ... So, reading that DID however(oddly enough) make me realize I had to actually "move over" into the "video menu settings" themselves in order for it to work ... A wise "fumble fingers" precaution I suppose, nevertheless, I'd bet they get a few calls about that ...


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would be interested if Ken or anyone else finds a setting on this to be able to control the user menu "ClearEdge VM" choice when you hit the reset button. If there is one in SM somewhere, I couldn't seem to find it, so it reverts to factory defaults for the "clear edge VM" settings for different pic modes when you press reset button : defaults to "high" Clearedge VM setting for vivid, and standard(I think, might be remembering that one wrong), and "low" for Movie Pic mode, and "off" for "pro", which makes it less useful for me given my customized pic modes, and that I have "standard" for normal viewing.



FWIW, on the XBR800, it's 2170P-3/VM. 3=High, 2=Med, 1=Low, 0=Off. This and 2170P-4/UPIC - UTMP are strictly picture mode sensitive on the XBR800. The intensities of the Clear Edge VM settings (High, Medium, Low) can be individually customized for each picture mode as well with 2170P-3/VMH, VMM, and VML.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This confuses me a bit. And maybe I've been misusing the terminology. I have been equating edge distortion with noisiness or harshness. I found on my set that SYSM=3 was the smoothest, least harsh setting. I find now that SYSM=2 or 1 seems too sharp or too harsh.
> 
> 
> When I see you indicating that edge distortion is lowest with SYSM=1 at nominal sharpness, I sense that I've been misunderstanding the terminology at the least.



What I mean by edge distortion is ringing, overshoot, smearing, etc. Basically any anomolies that obfuscate the clarity of (principally vertical) edges. Such effects are fairly easy to spot on a pattern like this , when comparing the horizontal to vertical lines. They should be easy to see on fine text as well.


These are sort of worse case scenarios as Ken mentions. And I would not necessarily use something like this as the only gauge for how to adjust the various edge controls. Keeping such effects at least somewhat under control has been one of my goals though.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's not read only, though, I just confirmed this by Changing "UBRT" for "standard" pic mode from "32" to "46" and writing the change ... The white dot position changed for the brightness slider, and it stayed that way(at 46) after I powered the set off, and powered it back up outside of SM.



This evening I duplicated this process exactly on my 36XS955, and no-go. It won't remember the new setting. It does a WRITE, but nothing is really written, apparently. Rats!


----------



## ADU

Hmm, the new value isn't retained by the SM, and pressing RESET on the remote with the User Menu/picture mode highlighted does nothing?


----------



## Napoleon D

I have since switched on back to SYSM=2. My ISF calibrator had set it to SYSM=3. As much as he knows, this i ultimiately think is the incorrect setting. I've switched back and forth on this subject, and it could be a matter of taste. But SYSM is probably the most major setting in the service menu, at least it has the most dramatic effect on how your image will look clarity/sharpness-wise.


I speak only from my experience with 480P dvd/component content, but i'm sure this applies elsewhere just the same.


SYSM=3 produces a VERY smooth image. It is an image so smooth, that raising sharpness really has no meaningful or useful effect on the picture. The image would look terrific if you were watching it in a store, but to actually sit down and watch a movie, or anything for a period longer the 27 seconds... not going to work very well. The picture, prior to adding edge-enhancment, is so smooth that it is VERY VERY difficult for the eyes to focus on. I don't know terminology too well, but i would assume undershooting is the correct word for what happens with the image. While the picture looks free of noise, and almost glossy, there is a severe lack of fine detail to focus on. I'm not saying the picture is blurry, it is just so soft that your eyes cannot latch on to any part of the image to focus on. The only way to fix this is to add some sort of artificial edge enhancement in the service menu - using mide, or perhaps a small degree of VM. While you will come out with a nice looking image from this adjustment (and one you can actually focus on), you will now notice there are bits of noise and artififacts that collect around certain images, almost like snow collecting on the sides of a tree. This is very much a tradeoff, you will get a smooth image, but an image with notceable edge-enhancement and ultimately unnatural.


SYSM=2.... This image is not QUITE as smooth or as computer screen-like as SYSM 3. But, fine detail is brought more cleanly and naturally to the surface. When you see a closeup of a person, you don't have to strain to see details, it comes straight out. The advantage with SYSM=2? You can remove every single one of those god-awful (in my opinion) edge enhancements in the service menu. Once you do all this, the only thing you need worry about is having the sharpness in the user menu at the right setting. By this point, you've created an image so natural and clear (and one that is still VERY easy to focus on) that the only noise you will get is from the sharpness control, or from any original artifacting from the actual source. This creates much more of a realistic image, as even film has a small degree of noise to it itself. IMO a movie image is not supposed to look overly smooth and processed, but ever-so slightly rough in certain places. This is what SYSM-2 creates. Your eyes will also note the positive difference that you are seeing an image far more natural and clear, without that extra edge "crap" blocking it. Again, all in my opinion.


(SYSM=1 is basically a lesser version of 2 (from what i've seen) i have no idea what it's designed for other than antenna tv. )


Basically i would rather strip as much as possible off an image to make it cleaner (SYSM-2) rather than add fake layers to the image to make it stand out more (SYSM-3). The good focus and convergence should be doing the core work to make a good image.


Does this all make sense?


By the way, in my short experience, i've noticed that all those MIDE, VM, LTLV etc. settings are no longer needed when SYSM is set on 2. Nor do i think they should be on the screen to begin with in any situation. I have every MIDE, VM, LV's, RSVP's etc set to zero (exception of PROV, LTMD, and SHFO) and have the best picture because of it.


Actually, Chad Bilheimer did my ISF. I'm sure you all have heard about him by now, as he is probably the best ISF calibrator out there, based on his testimonials, and based on how my set is looking. The reason he was the best, is because he cared so much about other people enjoying displays as much as he would, the level of perfection he went for was unreal. At any rate, he confirmed shutting all these above settings off. The only disagreement i had was that he set SYSM on 3 (for compnt dvd), with a MIDE setting to suppliment it. I ultimately just changed SYSM to 2, turned off the MIDE and couldn't be happier with his work, and how the display looks.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmm, the new value isn't retained by the SM, and pressing RESET on the remote with the User Menu/picture mode highlighted does nothing?



I deduced that nothing was retained because the positions of the "white dots" hadn't changed upon re-entry into the user menus. Pressing Reset means I have a bunch of work to do restoring my defaults to all four Picture modes. AFAIK, those dots are the positions specified by the user-default parameters, and they didn't move.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've switched back and forth on this subject, and it could be a matter of taste. But SYSM is probably the most major setting in the service menu, at least it has the most dramatic effect on how your image will look clarity/sharpness-wise.



The experience you detailed in this post exactly parallels mine; we just use different words to express it -- that is, if one of us catches his own typos! I completely obscured the main point of my post #955 by leaving out the numeral "3." Here is a corrected restatement of the point:


"I have come to think of it in audio tone-control terms: SYSM=*3* raises high frequencies, but as a *plateau,* much like the standard trebel control on a stereo. When cranked up, there is a response-curve ramp-up at some frequency, and then it levels off for higher frequencies. Thus, very fine detail is not boosted proportionately to fine detail but equal to it. SYSM=2, however, seems to me more like a tilting ramp upwards on the high-frequency response curve. When cranked above "neutral", medium detail is enhanced a bit, fine detail a lot more, and the finest textures most of all. So it has a very different "look" from SYSM=3. At a given SYSM=3 Sharpness boost setting, one could add those finest textures, I guess, by having a corresponding MID5 setting for MHYE. Trouble is, MHYE is *fixed* and SYSM is variable. So it would appear balanced only at one Sharpness setting -- not a very versatile use of Sharpness."


***********

I'm sure this is not technically accurate in implying how these effects are implemented in the hardware. After all, SYSM=2 has a time-domain shift so edge enhancement can be added *before* an edge. That's why the whole image shifts to the right when SYSM is changed to 2 from 3. (And that's a clue for the evaluation of other parameters as well. 2170P-3/SHF0, for example.)


If I were to infer from the evidence a major factor that distinguishes SYSM=2 from 3, it is that 3 seems to be merely a frequency boost in the high end of the video spectrum (and a plateau at that), and so it cannot add an effect *before* an edge occurs. SYSM=2 has no such limitation: The effect is derived from the signal in real-time, the unaltered signal is delayed slightly, and then the "effect" is added on top of the *delayed* original signal. Much more sophisticated, and it mimics true unsharp-masking in a digital photograph, where each pixel's brightness is derived, not only from its own original value, but from the value of pixels _to the left_, up, down, and right of itself. This is easy for a static image. Our TV are scanned, however, and "to the left" means "before" in time. Proposed bottom line: SYSM=2 mimics more accurately an actual *optical* correction and entrains the eye for focus much more successfully.


(Your recurring point about "capturing" the eye for focus without strain is extremely well-taken! This is likely the case for oversharpening really bad video and then viewing it a suitable distance so the eye/brain can work with the video on *its* biological terms.)


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FWIW, on the XBR800, it's 2170P-3/VM. 3=high, 2=med, 1=low, 0=off. This and 2170P-4/UPIC - UTMP are strictly picture mode sensitive on the XBR800. The intensities of the Clear Edge VM settings (High, Medium, Low) can be individually customized for each picture mode as well with 2170P-3/VMH, VMM, and VML.



On my XBR960, 2170P-3/VM is set at "0" for all pic modes, I use customized(lower than factory defaults) settings for VMH/VMM/VML per Ken tech's findings. None of These have any effect on the behavior that occurs with the "reset" button. The sliders move to my values I have set up for UPIC~UTMP when I press the "reset button", but the "Clear Edge VM" setting in the same "video settings" user menu still defaults to it's "factory" setting(either High, Medium, Low or off) for each pic mode when I press the button. Which especially doesn't work for me for my "customized" Vivid, Standard, and "movie" pic modes - In most cases, I use the "medium" ClearEdge VM setting for all of those. So, I'm looking for a setting which will allow me to control which Clear Edge VM setting each pic mode "defaults" to when I press the reset button when I'm in the "video" menu .. Just like setting UTMP=1 causes the "color temp" setting to use the "neutral" setting on my set. (0=warm, and 2=Cool).


[edited]On my set(34XBR960), looking at it more, I'm not sure what P2170P-3/VM does. I had thought it set the "intensity" of SVM when you choose the "cleardedge = Off" choice in user menu, if so, I'd want that one at "0" so it is actually "off" when I choose Off. However, It only allows "values" of 0-3. I'd thought, although it would make more sense for "off" just to mean "off" and not need any sort of "value" involved or SM control for it --- I'd thought if it were for an "off" setting, it might just allow 0-3 to only allow for the most "subtle" of SVM intesities if it were to correspond to the "off" menu choice. However, the "0-15" settings that are available for all all the others(VMH/VMM/VML), as well as the servicecode listing defaults(which match for pic mode the "high/low/off" defaults I'm getting per pic mode per the labels in user menu "clearedge VM choices) would lead one to assume it should "work" as it does for ADU's XBR800, although that is not what I'm getting according to the "low/Medium/High" "labels" in the user menu it's defaulting to regardless of how I have the 2170P-3/VM value set. [end edit]

[end edit]


If I weren't utilizing VM and VMH/VMM/VML(for high, medium, low settings) I suppose I could set those all at "zero" and then VM would be "off" no matter what the factory "reset" value for the "clearedge VM" user menu choice" for any pic mode actually is. But, I am using them, the VMM and VML settings specifically, I don't use VMH(High), except when testing+experimenting with the 2170P-3 VM "shaping" paramenters(VMCR~VMDL)


BTW, in case anyone is interested, I didn't throughly check this, but I don't think the "advanced" video menu settings (where you choose, or customize different DRC "pallete's" or chose a different "color axis" (for different settings for RYR~GYB/etc), are effected by the "reset" button.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I deduced that nothing was retained because the positions of the "white dots" hadn't changed upon re-entry into the user menus. Pressing Reset means I have a bunch of work to do restoring my defaults to all four Picture modes. AFAIK, those dots are the positions specified by the user-default parameters, and they didn't move.



Interesting, I would have thought it would probably work on the XS955, as it is working on XBR960. Allways good to find out about the little differences we experience with different set models.


Note that it didn't change the slider settings for different pic modes, just the one I was using at the time I pressed "reset". I didn't check to see if with "mode memory=off" if it was the case "input specific" values were still being stored(as is the case with Mode memory=on) - one wouldn't think so, but I guess you never know..


As I mentioned to ADU, however, I can't find a setting to "control" what happens with the "clearedgeVM" user menu setting when you press "reset" button. It's still defaulting to "high" Clearedge VM user menu choice for example for "vivid" if I press "reset" when in Vivid pic mode+video settings menu. Which makes this feature much less useful for me, as I'd have to change "clearedge" VM to my preferred value for any given pic mode everytime I hit "reset" button.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The experience you detailed in this post exactly parallels mine;



Same here.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can remove every single one of those god-awful (in my opinion) edge enhancements in the service menu.



You can, but where I differ a bit with you on this is - at least at this point, that at least in my case I find a bit of "fine tuning" and mininal enhancements in MID5 useful(and fine tuning those for different sources), per Ken Tech's findings on this per post #707, as well as "subtely(spelling+if that's a word)" set up VM settings useful, even with SYSM=2.


Perhaps however differences in our set models(such as SFP or no) might account for why some of us may be be experiencing something a little different in this regard.


I do agree with what you've said about the 2170P-3 edge enhancement settings - at least from what I've seen so far. Although, If I wasn't using MID, and I was using SYSM=3, I'd have a use for them, as I'd have to use them to some degree.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (SYSM=1 is basically a lesser version of 2 (from what i've seen) i have no idea what it's designed for other than antenna tv. )



OTA (antenna) looks awfully good to me with SYSM=2 or 3 (given you've "equalized" and fine tuned other relevant settings accordingly) vs. SYSM=1 .... That's including NTSC (analog) OTA, and the relevant 2103-1/3d-comb settings/etc ....


I do use an outdoor, high gain directional antenna setup, which is in a sense "optimized" for excellent analog NTSC reception(which is an important factor when it comes to NTSC analog PQ) - which luckily also turns out to also work great for OTA ATSC(digital TV/HD/etc) reception.


I've personally never found a use for SYSM=0 or 1, except when experimenting/testing/etc. Perhaps however things would be different If I was using an earlier model set, or if I were(don't know at this point if you can even set that up on the newer sets, or what the "effects" would be) using the "PT" for 1080i as ADU is.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> While the picture looks free of noise, and almost glossy, there is a severe lack of fine detail to focus on.



I also think this is an especially excellent description of what I've also experienced with SYSM=3 -- "Almost Glossy" is exactly what I've thought of it as well. In my case, SYSM=3 especially does not work well for 480p DVD.


As (hopefully) should be apparent from my post concerning experiments with the 2170P-3 edge controls per ADU's excellent info --- What I thought did seem odd was that in order to get SYSM=3 to "somewhat" work for 480p DVD, I had to add all sorts of enhancement from either MID5, or 2170P-3 - something which really isn't the case for SYSM=3 for other sources/scan rates/etc = and, what does work best for SYSM=3 and 480p DVD is a "balance" from both 2170-P3 and MID5 EE controls ... However, with SYSM-2, I don't really have to do anything "different" for 480p DVD than I am for 720p HD to achieve excellent resluts -- And all that involves really, is minimal enhancement from MID5.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> SYSM=2.... This image is not QUITE as smooth or as computer screen-like as SYSM 3. But, fine detail is brought more cleanly and naturally to the surface.



I've noticed the same thing here.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually, Chad Bilheimer did my ISF. I'm sure you all have heard about him by now



From all accounts I've heard, Chad is very dedicated and seems to do a wonderful job. I also recall enjoying, and reading many of his posts on another forum several years ago.


I've seen him post on AVS a few times, perhaps If he ever gets the oppurtunity to do so, I'd certianly very much enjoy hearing his thoughts here concerning the signal processing of these Sony DV CRT's we're discussing, as well as the "image processing"/ "EE" settings/etc. available in SM which we are working with.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kentech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I deduced that nothing was retained because the positions of the "white dots" hadn't changed upon re-entry into the user menus. Pressing Reset means I have a bunch of work to do restoring my defaults to all four Picture modes. AFAIK, those dots are the positions specified by the user-default parameters, and they didn't move.



Check the SM to see if the new values you entered for UPIC - UTMP are still intact. If they are, then the new slider config may be "in effect". You may not see it _take effect_ though until pressing the RESET button on the remote (while highlighting that Picture mode in the User Menu). That's the way it works on the XBR800 anyway.


All the RESET button does on the XBR800 is snap the sliders/parameters in the User Menu to the positions defined in the SM by 2170P-4/UPIC - UTMP (and 2170P-3/VM for Clear Edge VM) for the currently selected Picture mode. That seems to be the sole purpose for these features on the XBR800.


If you have the MODE MEMORY feature on your TV and have spent alot of time tweaking the User Menu/Picture modes differently for each separate input, then I can understand why you might not want to use the RESET feature. But I use this all the time on the XBR800 to reset the sliders in Pro mode back to their default positions (as I've configured them to work in the SM.)


> Quote:
> that is, if one us catches his own typos! I completely obscured the main point of my post #955 by leaving out...



Been there, and done that too.


----------



## ADU

Nitewatchman,


You might wanna check what 2170P-3/VM does on your TV again. FWIW, on the XBR800, 2170P-3/VM seems to behave exactly the way you're wantin it to (per Post #971 above). Ie, it controls which setting Clear Edge VM defaults to (either High [3], Medium [2], Low [1] or Off [0]) for each Picture mode when you press the RESET button on the remote.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Might wanna check that again. FWIW, on the XBR800, 2170P-3/VM seems to behave exactly the way you're wanting it to (and the way described in Post #971 above). Ie, it controls which setting Clear Edge VM defaults to for each Picture mode when you press the RESET button on the remote (either High [3], Medium [2], Low [1] or Off [0]).



I double checked it before posting my last post on this , and just checked it a third time.


P2170-3/VM stays at "0" If I press "reset" button on the remote while in "vivid" mode+in user menu "video settings" section, but the user "video" menu "clearedge" choice for "vivid" reverts to factory default choice of "high" Clearedge VM setting(thus it uses the P2170-3 VMH setting in this case). Note I pressed the reset button "outside" of SM, and entered SM afterwards to check the P2170-3/VM value(as I didn't "look up" what might happen hitting "reset" button while in SM, so didn't want to try that) - 2170P-3/VM still at 0, Clearedge VM user menu still at "high" for "vivid" pic mode.


If it was using the 2170P-3/VM setting and is working as it does on your set, then it should be defaulting to "clearedge:"off" choice in user menu when i hit "reset" for "vivid" pic mode given the P2170-3/VM=0 value for "vivid" pic mode on my set, correct? It is not doing that. It is "defaulting" to "High" user menu clearedge choice.


It's no big deal for me really. But, wish it would work, as Ken noted it would be especially useful to quickly+easily return to my normal "preferred" values for the sliders after making any slight adjustments to sliders to account for different program material/etc ... While it works for the sliders and UTMP "color temp" setting, It's just not as "convienient" or very useful if I'd have to keep changing back the Clear edge VM setting "manually" every time I'd use the reset button.


After "UTMP" in the "QM" section, the next control was "CVSB", but I don't think it has anything to do with the Clearedge setting, as it's value was "0" in all cases for all pic modes, whearas, with the reset button it's defaulting to Clearedge : "high"(Vivid or standard), "low"(Movie) or "off"(pro) depending upon Pic mode.


Thanks for your input+thoughts on this, though.


Update : just to check it a 4th time, In a little different way, I changed 2170P-3/VM to "1" for "vivid" mode. As I expected, Clearedge VM user menu setting still defaulted to "HIGH" when I went out of SM, and into user menu "video" settings and used the reset button(I'd set it "manually" to "medium" first, just in case, and so I could "see" it change).


Went back into SM, and P2170-3/VM was still set at "1" just as I had changed it(I then changed it back to "0" of course). Note that just to keep it a completely "controlled" experiment(although I don't think P2170-3/VM stores "input specific" values, only "pic mode" specific values), I "stayed" with the same input/source throughout the experiment, without switching to other inputs/sources/etc at any time.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you have the MODE MEMORY feature on your TV and have spent alot of time tweaking the User Menu/Picture modes differently for each separate input, then I can understand why you might not want to use the RESET feature.



If Mode memory is on on my XBR960, using the reset button only effects the Pic mode and Only the input you are using at the time, not other inputs or pic modes(including pic modes for that single "input" your using at the time). With Mode memory On, you do have to configure your "UPIC~UTMP" values for EACH input, and EACH picture mode. Otherwise, the inputs you "don't" configure, will still have the factory defaults for the "little dots".



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You won't see it take effect though until pressing the RESET button on the remote (while highlighting that particular Picture mode in the User Menu). That's the way it works on the XBR800 anyway.



Interesting. The "little dots" did move to reflect my new UPIC~USHP values on my XBR960 without me needing to hit the "reset" button first(of course, that' no actual "effect" to the picture). As I noted in earlier post, the dots didn't change In User Menu WHILE I made the change, but, after exiting User menu, and bringing it back up (the "video settings" portion of the menu), my new "dot" posistions were indicated instead of the previous factory settings.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Might wanna check this again. FWIW, on the XBR800, 2170P-3/VM seems to behave exactly the way you're wantin it to



I do see what you are getting at here, and what you are saying certianly seems to make sense, as my updates/info as mentioned below should also hopefully also point out ....


However, the "behavior" I'm actually getting with this is exactly as I've described, and I would agree THAT doesn't "make sense" but, nevertheless that is what is happening ...


I realize I had left an important word out when I said :



> Quote:
> On my set(34XBR960) The P2170P-3/VM setting sets the "intensity" of SVM when you choose the "cleardedge = Off" choice in user menu, I of course want that one at "0" so it is actually "off" when I choose Off.



I thought I had written(important missing item in Bold) :



> Quote:
> On my set(34XBR960) *I think* The P2170P-3/VM setting sets the "intensity" of SVM when you choose the "cleardedge = Off" choice in user menu, I of course want that one at "0" so it is actually "off" when I choose Off.



But, now I'm not so sure about that either, and have edited this section of my above corresponding post to instead read :



> Quote:
> [edited]On my set(34XBR960), looking at it more, I'm not sure what P2170P-3/VM does. I had thought it set the "intensity" of SVM when you choose the "cleardedge = Off" choice in user menu, if so, I'd want that one at "0" so it is actually "off" when I choose Off. However, It only allows "values" of 0-3. I'd thought, although it would make more sense for "off" just to mean "off" and not need any sort of "value" involved or SM control for it --- I'd thought if it were for an "off" setting, it might just allow 0-3 to only allow for the most "subtle" of SVM intesities if it were to correspond to the "off" menu choice. However, the "0-15" settings that are available for all all the others(VMH/VMM/VML), as well as the servicecode listing defaults(which match for pic mode the "high/low/off" defaults I'm getting per pic mode per the labels in user menu "clearedge VM choices) would lead one to assume it should "work" as it does for ADU's XBR800, although that is not what I'm getting according to the "low/Medium/High" "labels" in the user menu it's defaulting to regardless of how I have the 2170P-3/VM value set. [end edit]



I guess what I'll have to do when I get some time is temporarily change the VML/VMM/VMH settings to higher values(and maybe the 2170P3 VM Shaping values as well), so I can easily, and quickly "spot" the VM or differing intesities(my current settings are really to subtle to easily spot this, except (to a very SMALL extent) for the very slight differences seen when "moving" through the different Clearedge VM User menu choices(low/medium/high).


As, maybe it is possible 2170P3/VM could be "working" on my set as it is on yours,EXCEPT that the labels for the "defaults" when using "reset' for "high/Medium/Low" are being shown even if a actual "different' value is being used .... I don't know though -- I think I can tell the difference between my VMH (high) setting from the "off" setting, and it certianly doesn't seem to be "off" when it defaults to saying "high" for "vivid" mode even though "vivid" mode 2170P-3/VM value is "0".


Or, (and this is what I suspect) maybe 2170P3/VM is really doing nothing at all on my set, and is a "leftover" in the SM from earlier models that is not being implemented properly, and instead, the High/medium/low VM defaults for the different pic modes for the "reset" button are "hard coded" somewhere, or available somewhere else in SM(although I can't find it). Perhaps, Ken is also getting the same thing on his set, but instead with the "sliders" and little dots and "reset" button and QM UPIC~UTMP.


----------



## ADU

I see what yer sayin now. Sounds like the MODE MEMORY feature is making things a bit more complicated on the XBR960. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't bother trying to determine if the TV's using a different level of Clear Edge VM than the one shown in the User menu. That wouldn't make much sense. More than likely, it's gonna use whatever's listed. And if the parameter isn't changing to the new VM setting when you press the RESET button, then it sounds as if there may indeed be another switch or parameter involved somewhere else.


Perhaps the 2170P-3/VM only works when MODE MEMORY is OFF, and there's another parameter involved when MODE MEMORY is ON? Any idea how many different options the CVSB parameter contains (e.g. 0-3, or 0-4)?


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't bother trying to determine if the TV's using a different level of Clear Edge VM than the one shown in the User menu. That wouldn't make much sense. More than likely, it's gonna use whatever's listed.



Yeah, I agree, I'm not going to mess with that. Was just trying to think of all the possibilities that might explain what's going on, no matter how unlikely.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Perhaps the 2170P-3/VM only works when MODE MEMORY is OFF, and there's another parameter involved when MODE MEMORY is ON?



2170P-3/VM doesn't work for this on my set with "mode memory" off, either. I tried it earlier, and just doublechecked it.


Another useful thing I did find out when doing this however is that when I turn "mode memory" off, and then back on, I don't lose any "mode memory On" input specific(or pic mode specific) user menu settings.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any idea how many different options the CVSB parameter contains (e.g. 0-3, or 0-4)?



I don't know, I didn't check it as I don't know what it does. CVSB is showing a "0" value for all pic modes+inputs that I checked, so wouldn't think that would be reflective of the different user menu clearedge "defaults" for the different pic modes when the reset button is used(High for Vivid, Low for Movie/etc).


The Section of the SM CVSB(and UPIC~UTMP for that matter) is in is the "QM" section, which is an undocumented section at least it's not shown in the servicecode listing from Service manual. There is also a CVSB "entry" in the undocumenteed "QT" section of the service menu, it's also at "0" everywhere I checked.


----------



Which reminds me --- On another note -- an update on the "HDPT" PM I sent you and Ken the other day. Among other things, if you missed it, In the PM, it explains how I followed the info on this for older sets on other threads, and read all the approrpiate info in the "vertical bar" thread/etc.


Anyway -- I played around with HDPT=0 a little more in one pic mode last night. HDPT has Pic mode specific setting on my set - for instance, you can have it at "0" for vivid and "1" for Standard. With 1080i sources(which is all HDPT effects I believe), The screen going "scrambled" on my set(like you've lost V Sync or H Sync, and somewhat similar, in a sense to what you may get in some occasions if the 2171CXA "FIXS" paramenter isn't correctly set)occurs ONLY if you bring up the user "display" function, and only does that when your in SM - although, even outside SM, the user menus, channel banners/etc, are still "garbled" and not correctly displayed. Otherwise, it seemed to "work" to "by-pass MID".


I didn't find any "good" use for HDPT=0 it however. Except involving "differences" involved with values for the "PT"(passthrough) columns for some controls which differ -- (such as YOSW value, the 1080i PT specific CROP/CBOP(interestingly enough, CROP/CBOP AND YOF~CROF all are offsets that effect the "1080i PT" signal, as well as PT column CBGN~YGN/etc) from the "component" or 'ATSC" specific columns, I couldn't find any differences using HDPT=0 concerning the picture quality of 1080i sources as compared to using HDPT=1 and using all Zeroes in the MID5 Column.


Or, If there were any differences in "image quality"/etc, I couldn't "see" them. I also noticed, with "HDPT" at "0" there was often a "quick moving", rather wide Vertical bar moving across the screen at times(only on 1080i sources of course). Also note that MID1/"DPSW" "blank screen" on my KD34XBR960 if set to "1", and on this set "0" is the "normal" setting for it. If I recall my reading about older sets correctly, it's the other way around.


**disclaimer** At this point, I do not endorse, or recommend that anyone, at least with one of these newer Sony sets "check out" MID-by pass and the "HDPT" setting! As, (just based on my short experiments), #1). I don't think we know "enough" about what it does on these newer sets, it might not be 100% "safe", #2) I don't see that its "MID by pass" does anything "useful", and you can use all Zeros in a MID5 column+accomplish the same thing, at least that seems to be the case given my short experience with it, and from what I can tell. I could be wrong, of course. #3). Also, when you're in SM at least, you might find the screen becoming "all garbled" if you set it to "0" making the Service Menu info "unreadable", therefore you'll be in a real fix if you don't know a way "out" of it. #4). At least on my set, when using HDPT=0, the User menus and channel displays/banners/etc. do not display properly.


----------



## ADU

I got your PM on the above. And apologize for not getting back to you on that yet. Just a little backlogged at the moment.








*A WARNING: The HDPT parameter that you refer to above has the potential to damage Sony TVs if it's not properly implemented by an authorized technician, especially on models which lack certain hardware.*










No foolin or kiddin around. Tampering with this setting has the potential to damage your TV. That's why I have been reluctant to get much into it outside of certain threads which take the time to go into the subject in greater depth, such as the 1080i scrolling bar thread and the Sony signal processing thread . If you want to know more about it, I would *strongly advise* reading both these threads in their entirety to get a better idea of the risks/requirements/headaches involved with this parameter. Please also see my cautionary remarks to Ken about it in Post #29 and Post #31 of another thread.


For the vast majority of users (especially owners of newer models with better processing), I don't think messing with it would be worth the associated risks and headaches that it may involve.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No foolin or kiddin around. Tampering with this setting has the potential to damage your TV.
> 
> .



Absolutely, and I can't stress enough that you HAVE to know what you are doing before you MESS WITH *ANY* SM control. See my Disclaimer in last post as well.


I read the info in the threads you mention *in depth*, as well as *closely* studied the "signal flow" diagrams. Nevertheless, with the lack of info available on it for the newer sony sets, without anyone trying it on these newer sets, or posting about it+without a "sony" engineer "in the know" I can call, I certianly STILL took a bit of a *"risk"* with it --- a risk I was *very aware of the possible consequeses involved* , although I took every step possible to ensure it was a "carefully" mitagated risk, as I knew I had a quick "way out" ...


Believe it or not, I am quite knowledgable about Electronics hardware, and actually DO know a little about what I'm doing when it comes to these issues and inner workings of TV's and service menus and such. I've been doing this sort of thing for 30 years now, including working on the INSIDE of sets .....


Update:


Here's another "cautionary" tale involving a certian model of set+SM I recall from the late early mid 90's. This particluar set's Service Menu happend to have "VFREQ"(sets vertical scanning frequency) as it's FIRST SM item. It was also the case that, the "code" one needed to enter on the remote(or front panel set controls) was such that I believe it was very possible for a user to "accidently" enter SM without knowing it, and, perhaps thinking they were turning the vol down or switching channel(don't remember which), they could EASILY lower the VFREQ setting(which "stuck" immediately, you didn't have to do anything to "write" the new value) without knowing it - which would not only make it impossible to "see anything" on the screen, it would also cause the set to turn off after a few seconds. And the set would NOT work again, unless the EEPROM was reprogrammed or the EEPROM chip with the firmware on it was replaced, or perhaps a VARIAC was used to step down the A/C current to where you could enter the SM without the set turning off in a few seconds, and be able to "see" the value on the screen, and change it back to correct value.


: end update



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For the vast majority of users (especially owners of newer models with better processing), I don't think messing with it would be worth the associated risks and headaches that it involves.



From what I saw from it, I could be wrong but I don't think anyone will really gain anything from it on these newer sets.

Which Is the important reason WHY I thought I'd go ahead a post a little about it on this thread, as I thought I'd pass along that I can see no benefit whatsoever from using it with newer sets. THEREFORE, I don't think there IS any reason for anyone else with the newer sets to Mess with it. .


Maybe that wasn't a good enough reason, however. If so, and if necessary, and if asked I will delete my comments on this matter.


At first, thought I'd just send you+Ken a PM about it given your recent conversation on that other thread, but thought the info(that info being : From what I can tell there's no REASON whatsoever to try it with these new sets) might be useful for folks. On my set anyway, again, the short time I did check it -- it didn't accomplish anything "beneficial" for the "picture" over just setting all "zeros" for MID5 Column -- and I did look fairly "closely" at that.


In other words, my advice would be, *don't mess with it.*


----------



## ADU

Fair enough. I'm glad if you approached it with the gravity and diligence that I believe it warrants (and will keep my fingers crossed that no unpleasant consequences develop down the line), and think you make a very good case for simply leaving it alone. Not sure there's anything else I can add, except to reinforce my previous warnings that unrecoverable damage to your investment could result from messing with this.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> think you make a very good case for _simply leaving it alone_.



I'm glad, then I was able to get my point across on this(wasn't sure if it would come across well enough), and I appreciate your "warning" posts/comments which I think serve to help to "back that up".



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (and will keep my fingers crossed that there are no unpleasant consequences down the line) ......... except to reinforce my previous warnings that unrecoverable damage to your investment could result from messing with this.



Appreciate the thought -- Won't go into the "details", but, FWIW in my *specific* case, you don't have to be concerned about this where MY set and "circumstances", specifically, are concerned ....


And again, in my case, I was well aware of the risks and possible consequences involved, and again, I would also advise others *NOT* to mess with it .... especially as my observations seem to indicate there is absolutely NO reason to with these newer sets ....


Update: By the way - wanted to also mention I found the posts from Montreal, yourself, and Jingle1 posted on the other threads especially most useful to me on this matter ... Here are links to just a few of the posts I found especially useful when "stewing' about it, and thinking about what the possible differences with the newer sets/etc might be :

Vertical Bar Thread, post 754 

Vertical Bar Thread, Post 617 

Vertical Bar Thread, Post 385 

Vertical Bar Thread, Post 390 

Vertical Bar thread, Post 398 

Vertical Bar thread, Post 400 

Vertical Bar thread, Post 455 

archived Signal processing thread, post 37 

archived Signal processing thread, post 87 

archived Signal processing thread, post 129 


OOps! Looks like I missed the very last page of this one -- looks like someone HAS tried it before on the 960 - see this post and ADU's responses :

arcived Signal processing thread, post 164 


And so on ...


:end update


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> OOps! Looks like I missed the very last page of this one -- looks like someone HAS tried it before on the 960 - see this post and ADU's responses :
> 
> archived Signal processing thread, post 164



I'd forgotten about that as well. Most of the posts there are over 2 years old though... (Something to keep in mind when reading some of my older and potentially dubious advice there.)


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigkev4123* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was wondering if any of you guys could help me out with something. i have a kd30xs955, and i was messing around with the picture settings, like mpin, pin, ucp, lcp,ppha, lang, vang, vbow, lbow, and for some reason the lines are a little off and I cant seem to get them right. Is there any way I could reset them to the original numbers, or if someone could give me their numbers and I could go from there. I wrote all the original numbers down but i must have threw them away cleaning. up. so any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> please someone help me.
> 
> 
> kyle



kyle,


First, let me apologize for the delay in getting back to you, but I wanted to check a couple other possibilities out before replying on this, in case there might be some easier way to accomplish what you needed.


Regrettably it looks like you may be out of luck in terms of getting your original settings back for some of these parameters. I tried a few different things, but none of them restored the SM settings on my TV to the way they were set when it was new. It looks as if when you write new settings in the SM for parameters like the ones above, any of the _factory adjustments_ to those parameters are probably permanently written over, and there's no way to retrieve them. If you've lost your original notes, then they're likely gone for good.


Not sure if this would work, but you might try posting a request for other 30XS955 users to list their values for the particular parameters in question. Some of these parameters are likely to vary (perhaps quite a bit) from TV to TV, but it might help to narrow some of them down.


Not that this will be of much help, but FWIW, here are the defaults listed for the 34XBR800, and the actual values from my particular TV.

Code:


Code:


34XBR800
PARAMETER    DEFAULT    MY TV

MPIN (WideZoom) 10        11
MPIN (Others)    8         8

PIN (WideZoom)  40        25
PIN (Others)    31        21

UCP (WideZoom)  31        36
UCP (Others)    35        37

LCP (WideZoom)  31        36
LCP (Others)    35        39

PPHA (WideZoom) 20        20
PPHA (Others)   20        21

VANG            31        38

LANG            31        18

VBOW            31        26

LBOW            31        57


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KrammuelSTEog* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would first like to say that this forum for TV setup is the BEST.
> 
> Also, I have done this on the 34XBR800 and knowing that settings are different, I have had great success in adjusting mine pretty close to my satisfaction.
> 
> But, I do have a problem now.........I had moved recently and the TV had reset somewhat to a earlier state??? Is this something that certain settings revert back to factory or was it a screwup with the save (I know I had saved my settings, because it was fine for about 2 month before it was moved and power had gone out in that time and didn't affect it).
> 
> Any quick comments would be appreciated. TY



KrammuelSTEog,


FWIW, I tried unplugging my 34XBR800 for a few days, and basically nothing happened. As far as I could tell, all the settings in the SM remained intact. Whether anything different might happen if it was left unplugged longer, I can't really say.


When you started the TV the first time after moving though, did the channel scan requestor come up? If so, then perhaps the User menus simply reset.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes. This is an easy one.
> 
> 
> These settings do not adjust the individual colors. Thay set up a complex decoding martix for extracting color, and it really can't be eyeballed. For any one input, there really is only one correct setting. If you use the DVE or AVIA DVDs for setting up your DVD player's input, you have done it right. Period. If you still aren't happy with the greens, you can't blame the player/TV combination!
> 
> 
> The good news is that most inputs share the same color-matrix settings just fine, and using DVE to set these parameters will also set it for all other similar inputs. If you wish to go through the process on your own set (DVE works well), I recommend you use 2170P-2/RGBS to turn on only the individual color guns instead of using the color filters.
> 
> 
> More good news: Many folks have reported roughtly the same settings after they go through this process. For me it was 14-14-5-3 for RYR thru GYB, respectively. There is a little sloppiness in the proces, and at other times I have set it to 13-15-5-3, and so have others. Not a big deal, since you have gotten away from the huge red push that comes from the factory. I assigned these settings to the "Standard (Normal?)" choice in the user menus.
> 
> 
> Viewing those color bars with the green-only gun really explicitly identifies green push; so it does with red, too. Get that right, and your TV is now okay. Or you can just punch in the above numbers (14-14-5-3), and you will be *very* close. For you, the 5-3 pair is all-inportant.
> 
> 
> You might be seeing a green push in the original video material for some reason. Food commercials use a red or red-orange "push" all the time. The demo videos on DVE are fairly neutral, and you might start there to see what you've accomplished.



Update on my settings:


Ken what a coincidence!! i ended up with similar results: RYR-14, RYB-14, GYR-6, GYB-4.


But i learned something Ken, that even though at my first go around i got RYR-11,RYB-14, GYR-4, GYB-3 for progressive scan it was ok, then as soon as i went to interlaced mode and watched tv cable the color was off. Seems theres a difference in interlaced and progressive mode huh?


So i recalibrated and did it it interlaced mode instead and now all is swell and it's a good compromise of interlaced and progressive using RYR-14, RYB-14, GYR-6, GYB-4.


Thanks for your help! It seems we all have pretty much the same exact settings which lead me to beleive that is the sweet spot for these settings


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So i recalibrated and did it it interlaced mode instead and now all is swell and it's a good compromise of interlaced and progressive using RYR-14, RYB-14, GYR-6, GYB-4.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help! It seems we all have pretty much the same exact settings which lead me to beleive that is the sweet spot for these settings



Funny thing! I recently recalibrated with AVIA and DVE and having learned a trick or two from the built-in test patterns. My settings are now -- guess what? -- 14-14-6-4! I have also locked in the most perfect grayscale I have ever had, and the Olympics are looking outstanding!


Now, about that oversharpened ski-racing video . . . but the announcer segments with their nice graphics are very fine. (I have to refrain from tinkering with VM and other parameters when Other Half is viewing with me.)


----------



## SurfingMatt27









it's funny is'nt it!!


It seems those settings of RYR-GYB 14-14-6-4 seem to be perfect for everything HD resolutions and 480i/p took me a while but i'm glad we both found the sweet spot!!


As for the olympics yeah it's very impressive so far!! A tip on VM in the service menu with VM-VML turn these all to 0 and the PQ will look much sharper with them off. A good example of what to look at is the channel ticker in the corner of the screen when you flip through certain channels you see the channel logo. Well concentrate on that and tell me how razor sharp it looks with VM-VML at 0.


I noticed it a while back, what a remarkable improvement in clarity, give it a try!


Matt~


----------



## Myke256

Just 2 quick questions. First, is there an overscan pattern I can download? It's kind of a pain to scroll through 34 pages. I'd need 2 of them. 1 for 640x480 and 1920x1080. And second, I was told if you set Y-DC to 0 it would improve black levels. Is there any truth to this. I don't have the set yet so I can't check myself. This is for the HS models. Thanks in advance.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Y-DC should already be at 0 from the factory you should'nt have to change it.


As for overscan patterns DVE has them not too familiar with AVIA since i only own DVE i'm used to that calibration disc so can't help you there.


----------



## Myke256

I don't have a DVD player that upscales to 1080i so I wouldn't be able to adjust that res with my DVE. I stream pictures from my PC to my TV through my Xbox 360. I was hoping I could find overscan patterns to download to my PC. And would those 14-14-6-4 values be worth changing. Everytime I go into my service menu I get nervous even though nothing has happened yet.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Yes those values for the color matrix system are *deffinately* worth changing especially since these sony sets are known to give a huge amount of red push out of the box.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well concentrate on that and tell me how razor sharp it looks with VM-VML at 0.



Been there! But properly configured, a small amount of VM is always an improvement for me, even on HD, and the right amount is much less than for SD. I have now reconfigured the three VM parameters, VMH, VMM, and VML to 6-4-2, since I can not imagine using a setting higher than 6. Now I find that Low is the right setting for 1080i HD when it's broadcast quality is high (such as the Olympics host sequences). For regular analog cable SD, I prefer Medium or High. (Compare with factory-original Pro settings of 12-8-4.)


Finest textures are *not affected* by VM. Adequate currents at those video frequencies likely cannot be developed in the auxiliary magnetic coils that make uip the physical VM apparatus.


----------



## loadams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (I have to refrain from tinkering with VM and other parameters when Other Half is viewing with me.)



AH HAH !!! My wife was beginning to think I was OCD (sorry, no offense to anyone, we are all a little ocd at times), so I took a day a while back to configure one imput for all of my devices, now we watch as a happy couple again.


Update here Ken. I decided to dump 480p and tweak 480i thru component, pic is outstanding to say the least. Cinemotion plus the mide tweaks produces a wonderful, sharp, full of depth pic that I think I was missing using 480p. This gives me the leyway to tweak 1080i now with my older 2151 chip, and that is now much more pleasurable to watch. Cheers !


----------



## ragingd

I been reading every bodies post and everything seems fine with my tv. I have the 34xbr910, but i have one problem it seems like i have a bluish tint. Can anybody give me any advice on what could be wrong? Thanks for any help


----------



## shayward

Hi, Napoleon D. I'm new to the group, but I found your post personally affirming. Having just bought a SONY 420 (30" HD Direct View TV), I had the honour of having Michael Chen in Calgary calibrate it for me. He turned off all the VM settings in 2140P-3, and the SYSM settings for 108I were left at 3 (no effect, it seems, as I could not get the picture to sharpen by using the slider).


No doubt this gave me the most natural edges to the picture, but I found that faces were very difficult to look at - too smooth! I began to doubt the focus of the tube. He was kind enough to instruct me on how to reenable the VM values, which gave me back a sharpness I had come to expect from HD, but as you pointed out there a certain "blockiness" appeared in large areas of flesh tones. Using the VM on "low" or "medium" gives me a comfortable image, but I would like to have the best of both worlds.


I'll try using the SYSM settings to see if I can get a razor sharp image with no blocking on VM low. Thanks for the suggestion!


/Stephen Hayward

Calgary (new member).


By the way, I heartily recommend Michael Chen for anyone in the Calgary area (he also does junkets to other cities). Very personable, very competent, and quite dedicated to establishing a pure image.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Update here Ken. I decided to dump 480p and tweak 480i thru component, pic is outstanding to say the least. Cinemotion plus the mide tweaks produces a wonderful, sharp, full of depth pic that I think I was missing using 480p.



Your feedback, my experience, and what others have said lead me to believe that dealing with 480p thru component inputs is NOT this TV's strong suit! Who knows why? 480p thru HDMI is much better, though with a few more artifacts than 480i thru component and therefore with a slightly less attractive "look." It is very hard to separate the performance of the DVD player from that of the TV in their ability to perform the nasty processing required to deinterlace and resample 480-anything.


I'm happy to hear you have improved results!


----------



## KenTech

*Recommendations for small Warm and Cool color offsets*


I don't often use these settings, as I have tuned Neutral as perfectly as I could wish for evening viewing with suitable backlighting. But recent watching of the Olympics in the afternoon, with sunlight coming thru windows at the other end of the living room, has prompted me to choose Warm for viewing. It seems more neutral for that situation. But it seemed too red, still. On further examination, Cool wasn't right, either.


In a recent posting of my color-calibration settings, I listed Warm and Cool as being offsets of +1R and -1B and the reverse of -1R and +1B. I don't think these are correct. A problem is that I want a *small* warm or cool offset, and the steps offered in service mode are fairly coarse. Maybe the ratio should be 3 parts yellow + 2 parts red, but that would result in more change than I want.


I experimented, and I now think that one can come very close with a 2:1 ratio of yellow to red. Here are my current recommendations:


RDOF-GDOF-BDOF = (Warm) 32-31-29 or (Cool) 30-31-33.

CROF-GCOF-BCOF = [exactly the same as above]

Leave SBOF at 7.


In SM, you have to set the user-menu color-temp to Cool or Warm to change each settings group, then WRITE.


The object is to shift the *color temperature,* not the color, and that requires specific warm offsets of red plus yellow (minus-blue), sort of a salmon color for Warm, slightly greenish-blue for Cool. The question is, what are suitable ratios? For larger shifts, further experimentation might refine the choice, but the above is the smallest correction I can find that really looks good. Sony's bizarre WBSW offsets in SM and the use of blue-only for a cool correction are dead-wrong, IMHO!


For those who care, and your mileage *will* vary, my color drive and cutoff settings are:


2170P-1, #7-13, SBRT~BCUT = 29 - 42-28-23 - 43-24-22.


----------



## loadams

Ken, you are applying WBSW-0 (warm) and DCOL-0 (cool) to reflect these numbers for the offsets, for those just joining us?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ken, [are] you are applying WBSW-0 (warm) and DCOL-0 (cool) to reflect these numbers for the offsets, for those just joining us?



No. My understanding of those two items is this:


WBSW is a one-time injection of Sony's "warm" offsets into the Warm color-offset column. I leave it at zero since I have no use for those offset values, having created my own. (Sony's original settings for Neutral are hideously bluish, 9000K+ or something like that. There used to be a *big* jump to Warm. Now, Neutral is very close to 6500K or slightly above, and I want Warm to be only an incremental change warmer; same with Cool.


Based on reading some documents, I think DCOL stands for "Dynamic COLor," and I have no knowledge of how it works, so I leave it set to 0, which I have surmised is Off. I don't want *any* dynamic effects going on in my set, except the beam-current limiter that limits the maximum-average brightness and protects the CRT and power supply.


To make sure there are no misconceptions: The Warm and Cool offsets of RDOF~BCOF are not absolute settings but *difference* settings based on the values of RDRV~BCUT. 31 = no difference, 32 = +1, 33 = +2, 30 = -1, 29 = -2, etc. (I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself, here; many non-engioneering or math types really don't "get" the concept of offset.)


Since their values are so easy to reconstruct, one can conveniently hijack either Warm or Cool to test out new color settings without messing up the basic ones you've already set. That way, you can live with it for a while to see if it's right.


Example: You're suspecting your Neutral white that you've worked to get right is a little on the red side. So: Set up, say, Cool for 31-31-31 - 31-31-31 (no effect at all), then lower the red offsets by one: 30-31-31 - 30-31-31. Or maybe two. If you are fiddling with your grayscale, those two triplets will look different. WRITE those settings, and go back to watching your set. Now you can switch to Cool to get that small minus-red tweak. If it's what you want, incorporste it into the "real" color settings of RDRV-BCUT, and restore Cool to the former pre-experiment settings.


----------



## loadams

Sorry for my wording, should have asked if you have disabled WBSW and DCOL to reach those values.


Absolultely, it's the approach I take on this. I figure the offsets to 31 as a "middle of the slider" approach, ticking one way or the other in increments. However, I have found DCOL only to work with "cool". Put up a 80-100 ire screen and progressively step up DCOL to 3. You'll notice the screen progressively turning blue, can't figure out why that would even be attractive. But then, heck, I truly don't what it does either.


For now, neutral seems right on, with warm just a tick higher in red and 2 ticks lower in blue (from the value of 31) I want it warm, but not Mars in the summer. For experimentation purposes, I lowered my warm drv offsets to 26-25-23 for nighttime viewing, seems to help the poor eyes. Cool has been hijacked for b/w movies with DCOL set to 0, perhaps a little too sepia for normal viewing, but I certainly like the effect.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For now, neutral seems right on, with warm just a tick higher in red and 2 ticks lower in blue (from the value of 31) I want it warm, but not Mars in the summer. For experimentation purposes, I lowered my warm drv offsets to 26-25-23 for nighttime viewing, seems to help the poor eyes. Cool has been hijacked for b/w movies with DCOL set to 0, perhaps a little too sepia for normal viewing, but I certainly like the effect.



You've got it! You can take complete "ownership" of the Warm and Cool offset-settings and make them work for you. And they're easy to change without screwing up your hard-won Neutral settings. (Of course, doing that with the Picture modes, too, has been promoted here for a while.)


----------



## jeri534

Anyone know what values to fix overscan for my 30XS955? Thats all I want to fix right now and Im gonna save up for an ISF calibration


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeri534* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone know what values to fix overscan for my 30XS955? Thats all I want to fix right now and Im gonna save up for an ISF calibration



I'd be surprised if anyone could do that...


Unless I'm mistaken, working overscan requires a test pattern from say Avia or DVE while working in the SM. Since each set is unique, this is one area I bet can't work by just sharing values.


Am I wrong?


----------



## jeri534

Sorry, I meant values as what codes to look for in the SM, but I found them already, thanks.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeri534* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry, I meant values as what codes to look for in the SM, but I found them already, thanks.



My mistake - I completely misread your post.










Glad you found what you were looking for.


----------



## jeri534

Can anyone help why I do not have the (VDHP horizontal position), 1 (VDHS horizontal size), 2 (VDVE vertical position) and 3 (VDVS vertical size) in MID3 of my service menu? I just got my 30XS955 yesterday and would like to fix the overscan but those values are not there in MID3




Also, is it fine to fix overscan with a DVD running at 480p? Reason I ask is because I have a Xbox 360 which Ill use the DVD in, so when its playing itll be running at 480p right? So when I go back to 1080i after I fix the overscan it will stay corrected when I change to 1080i?


----------



## jeri534

How good did you guys get your geometry? I got about less than 2.5% on all sides except the bottom..heres a picture...


Also, to adjust the top layer for those who do not have those 4 options in MID3, it is in MID4 as DHHP, DHHS, DHVP, DHVS


----------



## jeri534

how is this?













Also, why is it that in 1080i, my overscan is fine, but in 480p, I have like 5% overscan on the right side?


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeri534* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, to adjust the top layer for those who do not have those 4 options in MID3, it is in MID4 as DHHP, DHHS, DHVP, DHVS



Interesting, because the 30XS955 is shown as "part of the family" on the cover of the service manual that includes 34XBR960 among others.


My chart from the service manual doesn't even show MID4, nor has any PDF or XLS sheet I've seen posted here. Fascinating. My XBR960 goes from MID3 right to MID5. No MID4.


Anyway, if for some reason they're in MID4 on your set and labeled with a D instead of a V, ok... we've learned something.


The important thing is that you found the controls that appear to be relevant on your set. I would say, from your picture, that you still haven't gotten it right at the bottom edge as you yourself have observed. No question in my mind the other three edges look superb, at around 1-1.25% overscan. Excellent. But that bottom edge is clearly not correct.


For purposes of testing, if you slide the image and/or raster up (so that the top edge goes offscreen), can you see any portion of what's below the bottom 2.5% overscan gradient mark? Can you see the corner arrow points? You should determine whether it's vertical size of the image or vertical size of the raster that's the problem.


In other words, if sliding the picture up reveals the missing bottom portion as currently adjusted so that you know it's there but still below the bottom edge of the screen, then you still haven't zeroed in on the right settings. But whichever service menu item regarding vertical size made that currently missing bottom data suddenly appear, that's the one that still needs delicate balancing with respect to the other vertical size/position controls.


But three of your four edges look fabulous.


One comment... is the left edge non-vertical? Looks to me like it is rotated slightly counter-clockwise (i.e. pointing slightly to the northwest) so that the upper-left and lower-left corners are not right angles. Also the vertical lines on the left side of the screen look slightly curved, bowing a bit to the right as you approach the top edge of the screen.


In contrast, the right side vertical lines, right edge, and right-upper and right-lower corners look much better.


----------



## jeri534

oops, big mistake, I meant MID2, not MID4



I have not dealt with any bowing and tilt issues, just overscan...



I tried getting the bottom of the picture to show up, but like the lower 1-3% is really messed up and is skewed to the left a lot.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeri534* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> oops, big mistake, I meant MID2, not MID4



MID2 is for adjusting image size/placement for 480i sources. MID3 is for 480p/720p/1080i sources.


I'm really not familiar at all with the 30XS955 (though it purports to be in the same service menu firmware family), so I don't know why MID3 would not be present in your service menu.


Unless... are you trying to adjust while sourced from S-video or composite video input (i.s. INPUT1-INPUT3 on the XBR960)? 480i source for your test pattern? Or are you using one of your 480p/720p/1080i inputs (INPUT4-INPUT7 on the XBR960) for doing the adjustments?


If you're using 480i, maybe that's why MID2 is showing up and not MID3. If so, use one of your component video inputs and see if you get MID3 presented.


----------



## jeri534

No I am using 1080i and MID2 worked for adjusting the top layer


----------



## jeri534

Btw, does anyone know why there is a big difference in overscan, its almost perfect in 1080i, but when I go to 480p on my xbox360 there is quite a bit of overscan on the right side.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeri534* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No I am using 1080i and MID2 worked for adjusting the top layer



Very strange. All documentation suggests MID2 is for 480i, not 1080i. Furthermore you should have MID3 in your service menu, which you don't.


I'm at a loss to explain since I only have experience with the XBR960.


But however you've gotten it done, it seems odd that you can get everything adjusted for three out of four edges but not the fourth. Very strange.


What happens... do you just tweak the presumably relevant service menu item to its maximum/minimum and still can't pull the bottom edge of the image up to where you'd like it? It just won't go up any further?


----------



## jeri534

I do have MID3 in my service menu, but its a whole bunch of different options than the service menu PDF..I have the exact same values as the guy in this post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6876424 


I can tweak the bottom image to where its fully there, but the bottom 1-3% is very skewed to the left.


Do you know about my 480p problem?


----------



## KenTech

*The Neglected CXA-2103 Image Filters and Their Significant Effects on Image Quality*


I have personally, and in print, glossed over these parameters so far. My mistake, but certainly in accord with the philosophy in my signature slogan!


There are five parameters in service-mode's *2103-1* group that very significantly alter the video image for (at least) all 480i sources. 480p, 1080i, and 720p sources do appear to pass through this chip, and so they're not affected. But SD broadcast from air or analog cable, as well as DVD thru component at 480i, certainly are. Therefore, these parameters have to be included in the suite of settings that determine image quality for these video sources. DVD at 480i thru V5/6 is a near-perfect way to play DVDs thru this set, trumping HDMI IMHO. (Can't comment on 480p thru component.) Sorry I haven't played these settings up enough in my charts. (There are equivalents for these parameters for a second tuner in 2103-2, but I don't have them enabled in my one-tuner 36XS955.)


The five parameters are #6-SHAP, #7-SHF0, #8-PREO, #16-SSMD, and #19-PPHA. The final two are subtle *timing* parameters that can significantly affect overshoot and ringing. Numerous experiments and some Sony documents have led me to the following tentative descriptions:


#6-*SHAP* is a sharpness/edge enhancer with a very coarse effect. (By coarse, I don't mean bad.) The older XBR2 charts indicate that zero effect is in the middle of the range (probably 7), but it's easy to see from simple experiments that zero effect = 0 in our DA-4-based sets. This edge enhancement doesn't ring, but it's very strong. I found that, in my case, only 1 notch of SHAP filled in a dip in the mid-video frequencies (coarse detail) but that anything more added an unpleasant, false edginess, making video look, well, like TV. On NTSC broadcast, such as well-produced local news, a SHAP of only 1 added an almost 3D realism that helped my eyes focus on the image. I checked the effect with much finer sources from DVD, and I like the effect there, too. So SHAP=1 for now. (Original settings for my set were up in the 5-8 range. Yikes!)


#7-*SHF0* has a profound effect on the image even if SHAP=0! To see this, put up the Sharpness screen from the AVIA disk, set the four-parameter group to 1-3-1-3 (including SSMD), vary SHF0 from 3 to 0, and watch what happens to the central crossed-lines pattern! Sony's description is that it sets the sharpness f0 at frequencies from 2.5 to 4.0MHz, but the effect seems much greater and more complex. Settings of 1 and 0 give rise to unacceptable ringing and/or overshoot in the test pattern. SHF0=2 is very good for ordinary NTSC images, giving them a clarity that is attractive. But, seductive as that is, comparison between SHF0=2 and =3 shows that the finest textures are slightly softened with SHF0=2. That effect that may please some folks; however, I found that it was detrimental to sharp DVD images, and so I choose SHF0=3 for sure for that input (V5). (Five values may be stored for different inputs: RF, CV-YC, V5-V6, HDMI, and ATSC/QAM.) I am still evaluating SHF0=3 vs 2 for NTSC video. I'm leaning toward 3.


#8-*PREO* locates the edge sharpening relative to the original edge. PREO=1 is centered, =0 biases it to the left, and =2 and =3 push it progressively to the right. With SHAP=0 and SHF0=3, PREO has a very slight ringing effect, minimized at 0 or 1; I'll bet that slight ringing is invisible on real video. That said, if you prefer SHAP=0, I would set PREO to 0 or 1 just to minimize this ringing (why not?).


Careful tests of very fine DVD video appear to indicate that settings other than PREO=1 *slightly,* (maybe, possibly, if I'm not dreaming) soften the very finest detail. That's all I'll say. I see no advantage to any setting except 1, since that makes SHAP act like a true unsharp-mask. I keep testing, and I keep going back to 1.


#16-*SSMD*. I know I have flip-flopped on this one. In the digital world inside the 2103 chip, it seems to push things around a bit, and the image is affected in subtle ways. Having chosen a value for SHF0 and in combination with PPHA, it affects image overshoot and ringing on sharp edges and, therefore, image clarity.


#19-*PPHA*. This seems to locate the entire image and all of the above effects relative to a fixed clock, subtly changing ringing and overshoot. Certain combinations of SHF0, SSMD, and PPHA are *absolutely* clean on my set! Default in the chart is 7 for the same 5 inputs mentioned in the SHF0 description, above, and that's how my TV was originally set. But you can freely tinker with this, varying it from, say, 5 to 9 while watching a pattern.


I tested 12 combinations of SSMD=0, 2, and 3 (1 looks too weird!), and SHF0 from 0 to 3. SHAP=1 and PREO=1. I examined the AVIA Sharpness crossed-lines pattern. I looked at real DVD-video, particularly Monsters, inc, and Matrix Revolutions, both of which are rich in fine detail and textures that are not exaggerated on the DVD (well, mostly). Later I examined these again with newfound knowledge about the PPHA parameter.


I also noted how these filters were screwing with the high-frequency phase by observing the AVIA test pattern Resolution 200 TVL, and paying attention to the vertical wedge patterns. At the narrow end you can see what happens as the line pitch approaches the theoretical limit of resolution for the DVD's 720dpi sample rate: A gray Y-shaped pattern tops the narrow end of the wedge, and its symmetry is an indicator of how linear the phase is as that limit is approached.


The combinations that work best, IMHO, are these, in order SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD-PPHA:

*1-3-1-3-6*: Zero overshoot and zero ringing, with astounding clarity on all sources. Perfect Y-pattern phase symmetry. Gorgeous DVD reproduction. This will be my preferred choice for now. With these values, especially PPHA now at 6, an increased SHAP setting acts like a perfectly symmetrical unsharp mask. Hooray! Nice to know it's there.

*1-2-1-3-7* and *1-2-1-2-7*: Excellent clarity for NTSC sources, very clean. Slight loss of finest textures on DVD, maybe perceptible even on great NTSC quality. Kills ringing and overshoot on AVIA Sharpness pattern, but skews gray Y slightly to left on 200 TVL screen. Not a bad choice for NTSC broadcast and may please some. Try it. (PPHA probably needs fine-tuning.)

*1-3-1-0-7* has more overshoot than 1-3-1-3-7, and the latter looks better to me on real video. So my previous advice to leave SSMD set to 0 (the automatic position) may not be the best after all but the differences are small. (PPHA probably needs fine-tuning.)


I guess we should finally add a "minimum-effect" setting of *0-3-1-3-6* for those who want zero edge sharpening from this chip. (PPHA may need fine-tuning.)

_[Revision late 2/17: Have added new material about the PPHA parameter. Further tests may alter the values for PPHA in all but the first and last combination recommendations above. But now I'm wondering why I would choose *anything* but 1-3-1-3-6!_


I will be very interested in any feedback.


----------



## jeri534

Has anyone who fixed their overscan in 1080i, how did you fix it for 480p? Cause I have my 1080i overscan fixed at about 2.5% all around, but when I go to 480p, the right side is is at around 5%...anyone know what I can do?


----------



## Nitewatchman

Note: 2/18/06 2:15am updates : updated with more accurate info, as #1). I didn't copy some of my "scribbled" notes very well, and #2). after another session with the set tonight, made some minor changes/improvements with various settings.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I will be very interested in any feedback.



Hope you don't mind a bit of it from me here, since we've also been talking about these via PM. Thought I should mention that, as otherwise the "timing" of this post might seem odd to folks, given it's only been a couple hours since your post.



> Quote:
> DVD at 480i thru V5/6 is a near-perfect way to play DVDs thru this set, trumping HDMI IMHO



I don't have a HDMI source, yet -- but for what it's worth, and for whatever reasons and, unlike what some others(inlcuding yourself) seem to be getting with 480p DVD via V5/V6 component inputs ---- After looking at it in a little more detail per my last post on this, on my set(KD34XBR960), and with my DVD player at least, I'm still extremely happy with 480p DVD via component - Not a big difference between 480p from DVD player and 480i with say "Cinemotion", but, I'm still getting a tad better results IMO from 480p from DVD player than 480i. Maybe I'm still missing something/not seeing something important about this, though.



> Quote:
> (There are equivalents for these parameters for a second tuner in 2103-2, but I don't have them enabled in my one-tuner 36XS955.)



Note that relevant 2103-2 SHAP~PREO and SSMD settings are applicable for the Twin-view RIGHT window only on my XBR960, and if I recall correctly perhaps the very tiny "index" feature "windows" as well. The same is true for 2103-2 SCON/SHUE/SCOL. The left twinview window, and the "primary" video in "index" feature is controlled by the 2103-1 settings.


There are seperate settings available in 2103-2 for "RF", and "CV-YC" for these settings, and, sources using the "RF" or CV-YC inputs are the only inputs you can use with the right twinview window, which is allways a "4x3" window as well. I can't use Internal ATSC/HD receiver, or DVD via V5/V6 in Right window for instance, only the left window, which can be used for any source, and which will be a 16x9 window for 16x9 sources, ATSC, or even NTSC 16x9 video from widescreen, so called "anamorphic" DVD's, and it will be a 4x3 window for 4x3 source signals.


Haven't spent a lot of time with this and the "right" Twinview window, but I am currently using 2103-2/SHFO=3, PRE0=1, and SSMD=1 for both RF+CV/YC Twinview Right window. Note that I have not completely "settled" on what I'm going to use for 2103-1/2103-2 "SSMD" for various sources yet.


Although I like 2301-1 SHAP=1 for all sources that use "DRC" best, and don't think at this point I would want to use anything higher than that elsewhere for 2103=1 - Higher values for 2103-2/SHAP do seem useful for Twinview's right window in my case. Note that a "seperate" sharpness slider setting, or AFAIK, another other "sharpness" offset is not available specifically for the right twinview window. So, I currently have 2103-2/SHAP=4 for CV/YC, SHAP=5 for RF.


Given the same source signal used for both windows+given the applicable settings that involve the left window(2103-1 SHAP~PREO for instance), so far, and given my current settings that effect the left window, this is the closest I've gotten to "matching sharpness" of the right window with the left -- For instance --- Lower SHAP values in 2103-2 result in the right window being "blurrier" than the left.



> Quote:
> I found that it was detrimental to sharp DVD images, and so I choose SHF0=3 for sure for that input (V5). (Five values may be stored for different inputs: RF, CV-YC, V5-V6, HDMI, and ATSC/QAM.) I am still evaluating SHF0=3 vs 2 for NTSC video. I'm leaning toward 3.



At this point, FWIW, I'm preferring SHFO=3 for everything effected by these settings -- It's not as noticable as 480i DVD via component, and it is hard to say -- but at times I think I am also noticing improved detail with it vs. SHFO=2 - especially from very "clean" OTA NTSC sources, and perhaps via SD Satellite receiver or via S-video as well.



> Quote:
> #16-*SSMD*...... In the digital world inside the 2103 chip, it seems to push things around a bit, and the image is affected in subtle ways. In combination with SHF0, it affects image overshoot and ringing on sharp edges. I tested 12 combinations of SSMD=0, 2, and 3 (1 looks too weird!), and SHF0 from 0 to 3. SHAP=1 and PREO=1. I examined the AVIA Sharpness crossed-lines pattern. I looked at real DVD-video, particularly Monsters, inc, and Matrix Revolutions, both of which are rich in fine detail and textures that are not exaggerated on the DVD (well, mostly).
> 
> 
> I also noted how these filters were screwing with the high-frequency phase by observing the AVIA test pattern Resolution 200 TVL, and paying attention to the vertical wedge patterns. At the narrow end you can see what happens as the line pitch approaches the theoretical limit of resolution for the DVD's 720dpi sample rate: A gray Y-shaped pattern tops the narrow end of the wedge, and its symmetry is an indicator of how linear the phase is as that limit is approached.



While I seem to be getting, and noticing the exact same things as you are with 2103-1/SHAP~PREO, ---- nevertheless, in some cases I seem to be getting something a little different with settings for SSMD and the "Y" symmetry at the narrow end of the wedges in the AVIA TVL 200 resolution pattern, and in just one case concerning overshoot.


For instance, as one example -- 480i DVD via V5/V6(Zenith DVD2381 player :



> Quote:
> The combinations that work best, IMHO, are these, in order SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD:
> 
> *1-3-1-3*: Very slight overshoot and very slight ringing, but excellent clarity on all sources. Perfect phase symmetry. Gorgeous DVD reproduction. This will be my preferred choice for now.



This paragraph updated with accurate info on "overshoot", as I'd copied it incorrectly from my scribbled notes, orginally : In my case, 1-3-1-3 results in nothing even resembling a "Y" occuring at the narrow end of the AVIA TVL200 wedges, and, also results in increased overshoot as compared to 1-3-1-0 -- With 1-3-1-0 I do have a fairly nice "Y" in the narrow end of vertical wedges, albeit it's a slightly "unsymmertical" "Y".


1-3-1-1 results in a very symmetrical "Y", but noticablely more overshoot, and perhaps even a tad bit of ghosting(but WAY to right of some edges) occuring for some reason. However(and I'm not sure I "trust this" much, hooking DVD player up via S-Video, 1-3-1-1 produces minimal ringing or overshoot, and a VERY symmetrical "Y" at the end of the wedges.


Note that also (480i using V5), 1-3-1-0 allows one to see "lines" in the lower right circle labeled "6.75MHZ", regardless of DRC setting used(Interlaced/progressive or cinemotion). those lines, for instance turn into "noise" with 1-3-1-1. Update: checking this again(and writing it down this time!) 1-3-1-3 also turns out to be one of the few "combinations" of settings with mostly "lines" and little noise in the lower right circle, although still more noise than 1-3-1-0.


Thought maybe the differences we are getting on this perhaps could involve output of DVD player(and maybe that has something to do with it) -- However, Also noticed that with 1-3-1-3, (for lack of a better way to describe it), I get sort of a "wavy" look to text in a small ID bug from 480i ATSC SD source via internal tuner, which is "fixed" with 1-3-1-0. 1-3-1-1 fixes it too, but with unacceptable ringing present.


When I get a chance, I'll try hooking up a different, JVC(it's 480i only, but believe it does use a Genesis/Farojuda chip) DVD player I have here and see what I get on these with it.


Update: Ok, tried the other player -- It's a JVC XV-N3SL - I'd used it before to see how various color settings "matched" for 2 different DVD players(and saw no differences), but, "sharpness"/EE wise -- I forgot how ugly this thing looks with the XBR960 -- WOW! Talk about oversharpening ... The player itself has a "picture control" window with settings such as variable "sharpness"(seems I can have "oversharpening" or "undersharpening" anyway) settings, and suffice it to say, nothing I do with this thing, or 2103-1 SHAP~PREO or SSMD will, for instance let me see anything like a "Y", symmetrical or not at the narrow end of the "vertical" TVL200 wedges ... What I think is interesting however, is :


#1). On another set (Toshiba 34HF84 - which uses Genesis/Farojuda Gm6010 IC - which I think is probably the main ingredient in it's scaling/deinterlacing/etc) I use it with, this JVC DVD player actually works quite nicely with it. Interestingly enough, my Zenith DVD player also works fairly nicely with the Toshiba - at 480i or 480p, but unlike with the XBR, I like 480i from the Zenith a little better with it ....


#2). Presumably, involving either one or both of the following : A). The difference in output between one DVD player and another, even with both DVD players outputting 480i, and/or b). The difference in how XBR960 is handling the "different" outputs from 2 different model DVD players.


If nothing else, the much "wider" differences I'm seeing from 480i output from these two different models of DVD players certianly has me less concerned about the differences from Ken's results I'm seeing concerning "symmetrical Y's" and SSMD values, or various combinations of SSMD+SHFO settings.


I think this also may illustrate that it also might be wise for folks to be careful about applying "calibration" settings to other inputs/sources which you "find" with your DVD player .... In my case, I'm certianly thankful for the internal "QM" section of SM test patterns for ATSC 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i !


:end update



> Quote:
> *1-2-1-3* and *1-2-1-2*: Excellent clarity for NTSC sources, very clean. Slight loss of finest textures on DVD, maybe perceptible even on great NTSC quality. Kills ringing and overshoot on AVIA Sharpness pattern, but skews gray Y slightly to left on 200 TVL screen. Not a bad choice for NTSC broadcast and may please some. Try it.



I'm getting the same thing as you are with the "Y" on this one, and 1-2-1-2 isn't much different. However, I'm getting more ringing and overshoot with 1-2-1-3 or 1-2-1-2 than I am with 1-2-1-1, which also makes for a very symmetrical "Y".


Although I'd spent quite a bit of time with 1-2-1-0 and generally liked it, I haven't spent much time with programming material trying out SHAP~PREO 1-2-1 with SSMD=3 yet.


------------------------------------------------------


Any thoughts concerning why we seem to be getting something a little different with SSMD, and or perhaps the "combination" of certian SHFO+SSMD settings ? (thanks ahead of time)


For "completeness" note that I am I'm restarting TV after 15 minutes before looking at these. And, I am using the image processing settings(2170P-3/3d-comb where applicable/etc) as recommended in your Post 707 updates. Exceptions perhaps being :


#1). Update: I did have 480i V5/V6 set to use MIDE column 57"(I have MID5 columns set up as described in your PDF attachement to Post 707), but tonight I decided #60 is better for 480i via component from my DVD player. If we are using "different" MID5 columns, don't think it really seems to effect what I'm getting with the "Y"'s in the TVL-200 wedges.


#2). I'm currently mostly using VM at "Low" or "medium" in user menu, and VML=2 or 4", with VMCR~VMDL(mostly) at 0-3-0-6. Although I expect it probably does not effect this, do note that I should have checked to see if the VM settings had any effect on this, and probably should have turned VM to "off" before looking at the test patterns, but in this case I did not.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't have a HDMI source, yet -- but for what it's worth, and for whatever reasons and, unlike what some others(inlcuding yourself) seem to be getting with 480p DVD via V5/V6 component inputs ---- After looking at it in a little more detail per my last post on this, on my set(KD34XBR960), and with my DVD player at least, I'm still extremely happy with 480p DVD via component - Not a big difference between 480p from DVD player and 480i with say "Cinemotion", but, I'm still getting a tad better results IMO from 480p from DVD player than 480i. Maybe I'm still missing something/not seeing something important about this, though.



This is a typical situation where you need to evaluate the picture from the DVD output at 480i, 480p and 720p/1080i if it will upscale. Depending on the processor in the DVD player, de-inerlacing and scaling can be better in the TV. The XBR960 can produce an excellent picture on V5/V6 with a 480i signal. Never discount this option because all de-interlacing and scaling is *not* the same.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The XBR960 can produce an excellent picture on V5/V6 with a 480i signal. Never discount this option because all de-interlacing and scaling is *not* the same.



Typical or no, I agree it most certianly does produce an excellent picture via V5/V6 with a 480i signal from the DVD player. I don't believe I said otherwise, anywhere in my post.


The same is true for that matter from 480i ATSC(from internal OTA ATSC receiver) or, NTSC sources from RF(OTA in my case) or CV/YC inputs(I use S-video mainly with S-VHS deck and Dish 311 receiver), or what it also does with 720p source signals -- in my case from 720p ATSC OTA broadcast sources ....


In other words, what I said was, with my particular *DVD player, IMO, it's just a tad better with 480p from player than 480i from the same player, or for that matter in comparision to another(but certianly "cheaper"), newer JVC player(480i only) I own. I didn't say 480i from the DVD player didn't also provide an "excellent" pic, it does.


And, again that is just my opinion, which also does happen to include evaluations/comparisons of 480i/480p from the same DVD player(including comparisions of 480i with DRC interlaced/progressive+cinemotion and various "custom DRC pallate" settings in addition to the factory default Pallate #1) concerning various results with various test patterns, such as the AVIA TVL resolution patterns.


Why that is, I don't know. I do know I've allways been happy with the 480p output from this particular DVD player, including in most cases with other displays I've used it with. Maybe it's just something wrong with my eyes, though, who knows










* - It's A older Zenith Model # DVD2381 from around ~2000~2001 - and no, it doesn't upscale to 720p or 1080i.


If there is some sort of "deficiency" I'm not aware of concerning how XBR960 handles 480P signals, I'd certianly be interested in hearing about it.


----------



## jeri534




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeri534* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Has anyone who fixed their overscan in 1080i, how did you fix it for 480p? Cause I have my 1080i overscan fixed at about 2.5% all around, but when I go to 480p, the right side is is at around 5%...anyone know what I can do?




Anyone?


----------



## KenTech

*Important revision* to post #1024 regarding the 2103 parameters:


For some reason, an important timing-phase parameter that affects these digital filters escaped my attention and the article: *#19-PPHA*. Please re-read above article for revisions. There is a very critical interactiion among SHF0, SSMD, and PPHA. Having chosen a value for SHF0, SSMD and PPHA then can be optimized, and there is a likely setting for those two that trumps all others in clarity and freedom from artifacts. For me, it was (for SHF0=3) SSMD=3 *and* PPHA=6, one notch down from the 7 default, which had clear overshoot after an edge.


Using the settings for SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD-PPHA of 1-3-1-3-6, I may have discovered a true Sweet Spot! I'll be back with more later, but now . . . the Olympics in HD!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any thoughts concerning why we seem to be getting something a little different with SSMD, and or perhaps the "combination" of certian SHFO+SSMD settings ?



Hah! More homework needed! Please read recent "discoveries" about the PPHA parameter, above. Consider "tuning" PPHA for any combination of SHF0 and SSMD, and see what happens.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why that is, I don't know. I do know I've allways been happy with the 480p output from this particular DVD player, including in most cases with other displays I've used it with. Maybe it's just something wrong with my eyes, though, who knows



This is what it is all about, finding the combination that looks best with the equipment you have.


You have determined the deinterlacing in your DVD player works/looks better than the one in the your XBR960, mission accomplished.


----------



## loadams

Allright, but why wouldn't it make sense to tame 2103_1 first (480i), then make the secondary adjustments with 2170P_3, then fine tune with the mid/pop tweaks as necessary ? (sharpness, edge enhancements)


Your latest finding, Ken, I think, has been the *most important* of all. Looking at my service manual, out of the box, my setting for SHUE in 2103_1 was 11 for rf (erred to green) and 5 for cv/yc (erred to red). So let's don't talk about color decoding settings. What was Sony thinking about? SHAP is 9 for rf, what? *How much oversharpening does rf need?* What is _tuned_ here that is _compensated_ for later in the chain? Anyway SCON,SCOL,SHUE are tamed to middle point, 7, middle of the slider, and later tweaked in 2170P_3 for my purposes. Then, of course, comes color decoding again.


Back to the original purpose. Tonight tested your latest findings, with great sucess. RF is much improved with a 2103_1 SHAP setting of 5, from the default of 9. You're right, looks kinda 3D-ish. 480i thru component looks great at 0 and SHFO set to 1, and tweaked later in 2170P_3. Mind now, I'm using MIDE - 0, and the "cone" or "flower" has disappeared on a 200tvl all together.


Even better findings. My old, trusty vcr, thru composite, with 2103_1 SHAP set to 4, is performing like new again. Gone is the overblown, over unsharp masking edges that will plague VHS tapes. Looks dvd-ish......... _well not_.


I'm doing a little testing of my own, in the audio section, with a spl meter. Figured you will get there eventually. I thought I had a decent 5.1 system, but heck, this 40XBR will run the onboard down to an audible 28 hz, not bad IMO. Most of the parameters deal with "equalizing" the sound that FWIW, Sony did a decent job in this department. The only one that does not seem to behave is the "steady sound".


DRC. Can't wait for this one. Cheers.......


----------



## loadams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If there is some sort of "deficiency" I'm not aware of concerning how XBR960 handles 480P signals, I'd certianly be interested in hearing about it.



I might be guilty of starting that one a while back.


480p fullscreen (4x3) thru my set with a Sony DVP-NS715P was awesome, but for me, if I'm watching anything compressed to 16x9 (960i), I've lost the benefits of the "no flicker" 480p scan. Just for me, seemed sense to make the jump and tinker.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is what it is all about, finding the combination that looks best with the equipment you have.



I agree -- besides, it's fun -- well, it's fun for me anyway












> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hah! More homework needed! Please read recent "discoveries" about the PPHA parameter, above. Consider "tuning" PPHA for any combination of SHF0 and SSMD, and see what happens.



Will do Ken, thanks ! I'm eager to try this, but I'd better start counting sheep right now










Note that In addition to some slight improvements I found, I also discovered tonight in a "SM session" with the set that I originally copied some of my scribbled notes incorrectly concerning some of my post on 2103-1 and I have just updated that post with the correct info. Most importantly+specifically, I copied down+originally posted wrong info concerning what I was getting with "overshoot" with SHAP~PREO+SSMD at 1-3-1-3 vs. 1-3-1-0 with 480i DVD via component --- follows is the updated, corrected portion of the post(the bolded section shows the change) :


In my case, 1-3-1-3 results in nothing even resembling a "Y" occuring at the narrow end of the AVIA TVL200 wedges, *and, also results in increased overshoot as compared to 1-3-1-0 -- With 1-3-1-0 I do have a fairly nice "Y" in the narrow end of vertical wedges, although its a slightly "unsymmertical" "Y".*


----------



## KenTech

*New experiments with the 2103-1 parameters, SSMD and PPHA*


I have come to believe that, because we appear to be fooling around with timing variables here, we are modifying the *quantizing* that goes on in the digital sampling process. As a result, *some* of the effects one sees on-screen are somewhat incidental or accidental: certain patterns of specific periodicity are emphasized by certain combinations of SSMD and PPHA. (You can see this in the lumpiness of some of the frequency-sweep patterns.) So one has to be careful about drawing hasty conclusions about overall image fidelity. In particular, parts of vertical lines just slightly off-vertical can change apparent sharpness just by being repositioned in the (invisible) sampling grid: a line that straddles two pixels will appear wider and blurrier. So one has to pay attention to random textures, too.


I warmed up my 36XS955 and restarted it. I examined patterns from AVIA that were hard-edged (menus, Sharpness screen) for signs of rank overshoot and ringing, and made a chart of the best SSMD/PPHA combinations for SHF0=3 and 2. Then I put in one of the best-possible DVDs for an acid test of texture: _The Matrix_, second release. In the facial closeups there are amazing skin textures and hair stubble, and there are fine clothing textures, both random and ribbed. Assorted fine lines, high-contrast edges, and patterns add to this detail goldmine. Oversharpening is almost completely absent, as are MPEG-2 artifacts. I compared the combinations I knew were relatively free of ringing and overshoot for their ability to faithfully and realisticaly reproduce material from this and a couple of other DVDs. I set SHAP=1 and PREO=1 for the whole test, and turned off VM. Sharpness was set to 28 or 30.


Values that work well for SHF0=3 in order *SSMD-PPHA*: *3-6, 2-6, 1-10, 0-6, 0-7, 3-13*. (Note that working PPHA values are usually 6-7 apart.)

For SHF0=2 (much less important to me): *2-14, 3-14*.


Now these values may be specific to *my* TV owing to its specific timing characteristics, so no one should be frustrated by an inability to repeat these exact numbers. The important thing, I think, is to realize that there are likely 2-3 values of PPHA that work for a given value of SSMD on your set, and that one of them will probably look best when tested with a real DVD. Some of my choices slightly emphasized coarse detail, as though I had increased SHAP by one notch. A couple of them were so similar, I wondered if coosing between them was completely arbitrary. Ultimately the movie-DVDs helped settle it, but we're not talking big differences, here!


My preferences, in order, turned out to be (for SHF0=3): *2-6, 0-7, 1-10*. 2-6 seemed to give the most balanced appearance between coarse and super-fine detail. (Warning: Using SSMD=1 causes a slight red-intensity drop on my RF input, but nothing on V5 for the DVD player.)


So . . . using the long version of the number string from the earlier article, *SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD-PPHA*, these groups are:

*1-3-1-2-6* (favorite), *1-3-1-0-7* (slightly coarser), and *1-3-1-1-10* (possibly the sharpest for DVD, not quite as natural-looking as 1-3-1-2-6, and not recommended for RF/Cable input). For the slightly lower bandwidth SHF0=2: *1-2-1-2-14*.


I am going to live with a couple of these for a while, particularly 1-3-1-2-6, and see if the benefits are visible across a variety of program types. I hope this detailed description actually helps someone tune their set, too just be prepared for *different* sets of preferred settings from what I got.


----------



## ADU

Interesting how we all seem to be going along similar, but different tracks on this sharpening stuff. Lately I've been getting more away from looking at patterns and focusing more on the effect the basic 2170P-3 parameters have on actual video content, and beginning to reintroduce some VM and Sharpness (via 2170P-3/SHOF) back into the equation, now that the effects of the different edge controls are a little easier for me to distinguish.


I think I've finally nailed down exactly what SYSM does as well. All it really does is modify the coarseness or scale of the effect from other edge controls. 1=Coarse, 2=Medium, 3=Fine. This is why the Sharpness control has a dramatic effect with SYSM=1, but creates only relatively minor looking changes with SYSM=3.


Which SYSM setting you choose may simply depend on the coarseness of the effect that you desire from other edge parameters with a given signal. Let's take the 2170P-3/F1LV and CTLV controls as examples...


If you pause on a frame from Attack of the Clones with a good range of contrast and detail, and set F1LV to its max setting of 3, then vary SYSM from 1 to 3, you should be able to see the change in coarseness between the three SYSM settings pretty well. With F1LV=3, SYSM=1 should create some fairly bright, coarse and noticeable (and rather ugly-lookin) edge artifacts. If you increase Sharpness, these edge artifacts will become even more pronounced and uglier-lookin. Now change SYSM to 2. The edge artifacts become smaller and more tightly confined. Raise SYSM to 3 and the artifacts become even smaller in scale and less apparent. The effect of both F1LV and Sharpness becomes progressively smaller and less noticeable/dramatic in scale as you increase SYSM from 1 to 3.


CTLV is a little more subtle, but you should see the same shrinkage of effect with that as well. If you set CTLV to the max of 3, then flip between the three SYSM settings you should see the softening effect on color detail change from being pretty broad and soft (SYSM=1) to more tightly confined and harder to see (SYSM=3). The "strength" of the softening effect on colored edges may not be changing, but the "area" effected becomes narrower and more confined as you increase SYSM.


The change in behavior of CTLV can be easily seen on this pattern as well. Set SYSM to 1, and then raise and lower CTLV from 0-3, and should see changes in saturation on both the thin and fat colored lines. Change SYSM to 2 and 3 however, and you'll see the desaturation effect of CTLV become more limited to just the thinner lines.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think I've finally nailed down exactly what SYSM does as well. All it really does is modify the _coarseness_ of some other edge controls. 1=Coarse, 2=Medium, 3=Fine. This is why the Sharpness control has a dramatic effect with SYSM=1, but creates only relatively minor looking changes with SYSM=3.
> 
> 
> Which SYSM setting you choose may simply depend on the coarseness of the effect that you desire from other edge parameters with a given signal.



The major problem with this proposition is that it's fairly easy to collect evidence that seems to contradict it, indicating that the effects of SYSM are more complex than that.


The best example has recently been discussed in exchanges on this forum: that the setting of SYSM changes *qualitatively* how the Sharpness control affects edgy detail and textures. Absent enabling any other enhancements, setting SYSM=2 plus increasing Sharpness increases medium, fine, and finest detail in increasing proportion, like a video frequency (and therefore spatial frequency) ramp-up. But if SYS=3, the action of the Sharpness control doesn't just shift to a higher frequency renge of influence: it's character changes. Medium-fine detail, and maybe fine, increase as you increase Sharpness, but very fine detail is *not* enhanced. Fine textures are, in fact, somewhat masked by an exaggerated presence of mid-fine detail. (The weave of the sweater becomes more obvious, but it appears no more furry, i.e. the fibers are no sharper.)


Further, on perfectly sharp edges, SYSM=3 plus turning Sharpness *way* up results in a bright line of overshoot following an edge. If SYS=2, however, these bright lines adhere to *both* sides of the edge, pre- and post-transition, like true unsharp-masking. The fact that the entire picture shifts a bit to the right with SYSM=2 also reveals that a delay has been added to the path for the basic image, allowing pre-edge enhancement. Without that delay (SYSM=3), pre-edge enhancement is impossible.


So I believe a comparison between SYSM=2 and 3 reveals a more complicated effect than simply that SYSM=3 affects higher spatial frequencies than SYS=2. For that matter, the evidence is that exactly the opposite is true! "Smooth" seems to be its only virtue.


> Quote:
> but the "area" affected becomes narrower and more confined as you increase SYSM



For some parameters this may be true. I haven't tried to catalog the ways that the fundamental SYSM setting modifies parameters other than the action of the Sharpness control. Its action as a fairly pure unsharp-mask at SYSM=2 seems to be the only sensible choice for me, and I have given up on SYSM=3 for anything. SYSM=1 is so absent any finesse that I can't envision a use for it.


This means, of course, that I have chosen SYSM=2 for its salient, useful effects on overall image fidelity. CTLV and other parameters that may be modified by SYSM, and whose effects are more subtle or subordinate, will be used by me in that context or not at all.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> *New experiments with the 2103-1 parameters, SSMD and PPHA*



"Fine tuning" of SSMD+PPHA seems to be working for me to find those "sweet spots" I was looking for! And I'm really liking what I'm seeing. For me, the key to finding those sweet spots has involved :


#1). First settling on the value of 2103-1/SHFO I want to use - which is SHFO=3. I'm also using SHAP=1 and PREO=1, except for higher SHAP values in 2103-2 for right twinview window. I don't know at this point If I'll put much time into finding the combinations of SSMD+PPHA that will work for SHFO=2, as at this point at least, I think I've pretty much decided on SHFO=3 for all sources/inputs.


#2). Finding the combinations of SSMD+PPHA which seem work best for SHFO=3. In some cases, as you noted in your post there are even several combinations of SSMD+PPHA which work in an "in the ballpark" sense with any given setting of SSMD, generally with PPHA values 5~6 or so apart in my case. This involved :


A). Use of The AVIA sharpness+TVL patterns to get in the "ballpark" to find the various combinations of SSMD+PPHA which produced minimal ringing or overshoot, and "symmetrical Y's" in the narrow end of the TVL wedges+where possible "less clumpy" horizontal sweeps/etc ... Note that I checked these extensively with DVD player at 480i via V5+V6, and a little less extensively with DVD player via S-video(CV/YC).


B). Checking the various combinations I found with a). with real programming material from various sources/inputs and finding the ones that *-work best for each input/source -- Which, in some cases do not necessarily involve the absolute "best" combination of values of SSMD+PPHA concerning looking at the test patterns most symmetrical Y's/etc -- But, at this point, my preferred settings are also from the "list" of "in the ballpark" combinations of SSMD+PPHA.


I think for me, BOTH A+B were/are very important. Without "A", I doubt I would have ever had much luck with "B".


* - While I think I've found some nice "sweet spots" for now, for the reasons you mentioned, this is going to be a "ongoing thing", and it may be quite a while before I completely "settle" on the combination of SSMD/PPHA to be used for any given input/source.



> Quote:
> I have come to believe that, because we appear to be fooling around with timing variables here, we are modifying the *quantizing* that goes on in the digital sampling process. As a result, *some* of the effects one sees on-screen are somewhat incidental or accidental: certain patterns of specific periodicity are emphasized by certain combinations of SSMD and PPHA. (You can see this in the lumpiness of some of the frequency-sweep patterns.) So one has to be careful about drawing hasty conclusions about overall image fidelity. In particular, parts of vertical lines just slightly off-vertical can change apparent sharpness just by being repositioned in the (invisible) sampling grid: a line that straddles two pixels will appear wider and blurrier. So one has to pay attention to random textures, too.



I think this perfectly describes what I've also experienced with this so far. Excellent post(in its entirety)+ description of these !



> Quote:
> Now these values may be specific to *my* TV owing to its specific timing characteristics, so no one should be frustrated by an inability to repeat these exact numbers. The important thing, I think, is to realize that there are likely 2-3 values of PPHA that work for a given value of SSMD on your set, and that one of them will probably look best when tested with a real DVD.



Not frustrated here at all







-- I think it is interesting that while not "exactly" the same, the combinations of SSMD+PPHA I'm getting for the "sweet spots" are mostly within a couple of values for PPHA from your numbers, and in one case(SSMD=1/PPHA-10) actually *IS* exactly the same.


On my set, With SHAP~PREO 1-3-1, using 480i DVD via V5/V6 component and the AVIA test patterns, here is the list of "in the ballpark" values(first values to right of each "SSMD" value seem best at this point and are my current preferences) for :


SSMD=2 or 3 -- PPHA 8 or 7, PPHA 3 or 2, PPHA 14 or 15

SSMD=1 --- PPHA 10 or 5

SSMD=0 --- PPHA 8 or 7 , 2 or 1, 14 or 13


Here's the list of best values(I didn't spend as much time on this - the below do make for VERY good results from the Y's in the TVL wedges/etc) I could find using DVD player hooked up via S-video :


SSMD=2 or 3 - PPHA 6

SSMD=1 - PPHA 8

SSMD=0 - PPHA 10 or 5


I thought it interesting that these turned out a little different than 480i DVD via component. While it is awfully difficult to say -- It appeared that, for instance SSMD=2/PPHA=8 may or may not have resulted in *very slightly* less overshoot than SSMD=2/PPHA=6 -- everything else(including programming material via S-video sources) is telling me PPHA=6 is better.


At first I thought, well, if this is the case with S-video inputs(which appears to be the case with real programming material via s-video sourdces as well), then perhaps it has more to do with something involving output of my DVD player via component, and perhaps ONLY the DVD player is working best with those settings ... but, using real programming material, and trying for instance SSMD=2/PPHA=6 with RF and 480i ATSC, It seemed apparent(at this point at least) that just does not seem to be the case.


So, at this point at least, I believe it is only the S-video input that needs slightly different combinations of settings for SSMD~PPHA. I'm not really using composite video inputs for anything(except from RF input), but it might be interesting to hook DVD player up via composite video input and check the test patterns and see what I get.


---------------------------------------------------------------


My preferences at this point :


Using SHAP~PREO 1-3-1 for all effected inputs/sources, Here are my preferred settings at this point per inputs I'm using+some notes. Again, I also haven't settled on all of these completely yet, but at this point at least they all seem to be working very nicely :


RF Input(In my case, used only for OTA NTSC sources) :


SSMD=2

PPHA =8


From what I can tell so far, at this point this seems to be the *definite* sweet spot for OTA NTSC sources. It looks wonderful.


CV/YC :


I use this with S-Video inputs, specifically Dish Network 311 receiver and JVC S-VHS deck :


SSMD=2

PPHA=6


At first, I had spent quite a bit of time with this one and SSMD=2/PPHA=8 -- per the results I found with Test patterns+480i DVD via component -- which seemed to work fairly well(more detail than you might expect from SD NTSC sources for instance), but, still there was just something that didn't quite seem "right" about it. So, Considering what I found with the test patterns via DVD hooked up via S-video after looking at quite a bit of programming(and user menus in Dish network+the S-VHS VCR), for now, I've decided I like SSMD=2/PPHA=6 better. Chances are good I might "flip flop" on this one again, though ...


ATSC 480i and V5/V6 for 480i DVD :


SSMD=1

PPHA=10


Important note : This one is a bit of a dilemma. While I think at this point I like SSMD=2, PPHA=8 for DVD just a tad better --- unfortunetly, 480i ATSC+V5/V6 use a single PPHA value from the "others" column, and at this point I think I'm seeing a fairly clear preference for SSMD=1/PPHA=10 for ATSC 480i. Seems to be The "sweet spot" for natural looking, and detailed "textures" for a few high quality 480i ATSC/OTA sources of importance which I'm not quite getting with SSMD~PPHA=2~8. High quality 480i ATSC sources(some in the area certianly are not "high quality" however) very much have a "DVD-like" quality with SSMD=1/PPHA=10, that is *almost* but not quite there with SSMD=2/PPHA=8 ....


At first I thought this wouldn't be much of a dilemma, since previously, I've allways slightly perferred sending 480p from the player. HOWEVER, now it looks like with SSMD=2, PPHA=8, (but not so much with SSMD=1/PPHA=10) I'm starting to develop a slight preference for 480i from the player, as it now seems just a TAD bit(but not much) better than 480p concerning "natural looking" texture, and perhaps even a tad more detail visable ... decisions, desisions







...


I tried to see if using SSMD=0/PPHA 8 or 7 might be a good "in the middle of the road" compromise that would work well for both 480i ATSC and 480i DVD, but it didn't seem to be the case, as for instance, I still perfer 480p DVD over this option, and it didn't work as well for ATSC 480i either.


------------------------------



> Quote:
> (Warning: Using SSMD=1 causes a slight red-intensity drop on my RF input, but nothing on V5 for the DVD player.)



Noticed this as well -- it effects CV/YC(Dish network receiver/etc) in my case as well, but Not V5/V6 or 480i ATSC (component video sources).


I haven't checked it yet, but at some point I will probably check AVIA/DVE color tests with DVD hooked up via Svideo with "one gun" tests using RGBS and see what happens with SSMD=1. As, from what I recall before with balancing color+S-video input, I'm thinking there may be a slight possibility SSMD=1 may be useful for me for S-video in this regard.


----------



## KenTech

*New Image-Processing Codes Chart*


I have updated "IPChart05tall.pdf" from post #707 to include the SSMD and PPHA parameters, and I have updated a couple of the descriptions. Also removed some wordiness to keep the whole thing on one legal-size page. See attachment below.

 

IPChart06tall.pdf 82.9736328125k . file


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kentech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So I believe a comparison between SYSM=2 and 3 reveals a more complicated effect than simply that SYSM=3 affects higher spatial frequencies than SYS=2.



Could be temporal to start with. If SYSM simply varies the clockspeed/frequency of the edge filters under it's control, the differences would translate into a broader (SYSM=1) or narrower (SYSM=3) effect in a horizontal direction on the screen. I'm not sayin that's exactly what's happenin since this is beyond my scope of expertise, but if you set Sharpness to it's highest or lowest setting and then switch between the different SYSM modes while looking at a pattern like this , that's pretty much the effect you'll see. The Sharpening or softening effect becomes more condensed in a horizontal direction as SYSM is increased from 1 to 3. And it seems to work the same for F1LV and CTLV.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could be temporal to start with.



Well it certainly must be for SYSM=2 and its unsharp-mask effect, sort of the point I was making about the entire picture shifting to the right -- a dead giveaway, IMO. That this shift is absent or much less with SYSM=3, it's possible that a different mechanism is in play. (A Sony description of SYSM uses the terms "flat" for 3, but "broad peak" for 2, and "sharp peak" for 1 and 0. But these terms may be really poorly chosen and translated.)


None of us has any knowledge of the engineering details behind these settings, and we're all guessing how they're implemented. My personal goal has been to characterize them well enough to be able to make wise choices of settings. Analyzing *why* they act as they do indulges my engineering nature, but it's not absolutely necessary. I see from the evidence what SYSM=2 does for all images I use for testing it, and so I feel I understand, if only "organically" or intuitively, what it does. I can't get SYSM=3 to act on the finest textures without exaggerating coarser detail, and so now it's off my list. SYSM=2 doesn't have this problem.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think it is interesting that while not "exactly" the same, the combinations of SSMD+PPHA I'm getting for the "sweet spots" are mostly within a couple of values for PPHA from your numbers, and in one case(SSMD=1/PPHA-10) actually *IS* exactly the same.



I'm very grateful for your extensive contribution! I think it sort of proves that there may be a "ballpark" for these "sweet" parameter-pairs, but I'm not at all surprised to hear that you have arrived at slightly different numbers. Some of those numbers, however, really do agree, and so maybe PPHA is the real wildcard.


The downside is that, unlike some of the other parameters that can be adopted by most users without testing (color-matrix stuff comes to mind), with these I am unable to say "Oh, yeah, just crank in the numbers 1-3-1-2-6, and you'll have perfection." The 1-3-1-2 may get you 90% of the way there, but that final PPHA component I believe really has to be "tuned." Too bad for non-tinkerers! I hope that, since you and I have each elaborated on our *method,* that others may be game to try, too. So far I really like what I am seeing!


Good friends of mine who have bought the same set, on which I have already made numerous adjustments, will get this SSMD/PPHA treatment, and I'll report back how their settings differ.


----------



## phatl

I have a question that i couldn't find the answer to by searching the thread. I have a patch of discoloration for lack of a better word in the upperleft hand corner right along the edge and about an inch from the top of the screen. It's kind of blueish i guess. I only really notice it when that part of the screen is white. Is there a setting i can play with to correct this?


----------



## XDanX

So I know phosphor trailing on tube televisions are common place which I am fine with by on my kv30hs420 they are a little ridiculous sometimes. When playing any games on the television that have darker backgrounds and lighter images the trailing can get very very bad. At some points especially in games like donkey kong country when the screen is moving fast the trailing can reach a length of an inch and a half past the object! I know there is no way to get rid of this problem completely but if anyone where to give me any advice on how to reduce it even by a little I would be thankful. Thank you to everyone ahead of time for the help!


----------



## ADU

If you're using 480p, or 480i with DRC/Progessive or Cinemotion, try switching to something that will display in an interlaced mode like 1080i, or using DRC/Interlaced (960i) for 480i upconversion. 720p should also convert to interlaced 1080i for display. Increase ambient illumination, ie turn a few lamps on and don't game in the dark. Avoid Pro picture mode if possible. Also try adjusting game gamma (especially if using Pro). Try both darkening and lightening gamma to see which works better for you. Try some different Brightness settings. See my remarks here as well. That's about all I can think of off the top of my head.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phatl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a patch of discoloration



What model set?


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kentech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That this shift is absent or much less with SYSM=3, it's possible that a different mechanism is in play.



FWIW there's a shift when switching between all three SYSM settings on my XBR800.


> Quote:
> A Sony description of SYSM uses the terms "flat" for 3, but "broad peak" for 2, and "sharp peak" for 1 and 0. But these terms may be really poorly chosen and translated.)



Those terms seem more or less in accord with my interpretation, but what I see on the screen is the reverse of their descriptions. SYSM=0/1 creates the broadest/coarsest effects on my TV, while SYSM=3 creates the narrowest/finest. Perhaps they're looking at it differently though.


> Quote:
> Medium-fine detail, and maybe fine, increase as you increase Sharpness, but very fine detail is *not* enhanced. Fine textures are, in fact, somewhat masked by an exaggerated presence of mid-fine detail.





> Quote:
> I can't get SYSM=3 to act on the finest textures without exaggerating coarser detail, and so now it's off my list. SYSM=2 doesn't have this problem.



Understood. Not sure if this is related, but one thing I noticed in tests with SYSM=3 was that SHF0=1 seemed to have a somewhat more destructive effect on fine detail in that mode.


Another potential problem with SYSM=3 is just the fact that the edge effects are so "condensed" together that fine-tuning them may be more difficult. Switching to SYSM=1 or 2 may give a more "magnified/enhanced" view of what's going on though for effects such as Sharpness, CTLV and F1LV.


SYSM=3 could possibly be more beneficial at higher resolutions as well. 720p and 1080i are generally assigned higher SYSM settings (usually 3) than 480i and 480p in the defaults for example.


> Quote:
> Further, on perfectly sharp edges, SYSM=3 plus turning Sharpness *way* up results in a bright line of overshoot following an edge. If SYS=2, however, these bright lines adhere to *both* sides of the edge, pre- and post-transition, like true unsharp-masking. The fact that the entire picture shifts a bit to the right with SYSM=2 also reveals that a delay has been added to the path for the basic image, allowing pre-edge enhancement. Without that delay (SYSM=3), pre-edge enhancement is impossible.



PROV should provide some control over how ringing/overshoot is centered in relation to the edge. Achieving a well-defined unsharp-mask effect like you're after may be difficult with SYSM=3 though because the edge effects may be so tightly packed together that they're basically overlapping each other (especially if the CRT guns aren't well-focused?). So the best you may be able to achieve is a more "evenly diffused" edge.


FWIW, my latest take on the 2170P-3 edge controls (excluding velocity modulation):


SYSM

Controls the coarseness of various edge effects such as Sharpness, F1LV, CTLV, and possible others. 1=Coarse. 3=Fine.


SHOF

Sharpness offset.


SHF0

Still having some difficulty describing the effect of this control. SHF0=1 seems to give the picture a stiffer, "flatter", more textural monitor-like feeling. SHF0=0 makes a deeper, smoother, looser feeling picture. Still going back and forth on these.


PROV

Adjusts the emphasis (ie ringing/overshoot) to the left or right of edges in small increments. If this control isn't "centered" well, the biased effect on edges will sort of pull your eye towards the left or right side of the screen in normal video content.


F1LV

Enhances the brightness of edges, especially elevating shadow details so they're easier to see. Coarseness of the effect is controlled by SYSM.


LTMD=0/LTLV=1-3

Smooths out low-contrast detail (including noise, grain and compression artifacts) and sharpens/defines high-contrast edges.


LTMD=1/LTLV=1-3

Enhances edge-definition across the board, bringing higher-contrast edges forward.


CTLV

Softens color details by reducing saturation at edges. 0=highest color saturation at edges and sharpest color detail. 3=lowest edge saturation, and generally softest-looking color detail. Coarseness of the effect is controlled by SYSM.


----------



## phatl




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What model set?



no problem. xbr910. Thanks Ken.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FWIW there's a shift when switching between all three SYSM settings on my XBR800.



Well, you see *two* shifts, between the settings. Which points up a flaw in my thinking: How do I know that SYSM=3 isn't shifted as well, since we don't have a guaranteed "zero-shift" reference point? So I am reexamining my "conclusions" based on that logic. (Everything I "conclude" is on probation!)


> Quote:
> Those terms seem more or less in accord with my interpretation, but what I see on the screen is the reverse of their descriptions.



It's consistent, actually. Progressing from SYSM=0/1 thru 3 *raises* the video frequencies that are affected and therefore makes the effects' visual representation on-screen smaller. (Higher video frequencies => higher spatial frequencies => smaller effects on-screen.)


> Quote:
> Not sure if this is related, but one thing I noticed in tests with SYSM=3 was that SHF0=1 seemed to have a somewhat more destructive effect on fine detail in that mode.



I can't confirm, but I really dislike the effects introduced by SHF0=0, and that setting is what smears fine textures to my eyes. (I presume you mean the SHF0 in 2170P-3.)


> Quote:
> Another potential problem with SYSM=3 is just the fact that the edge effects are so condensed and crowded together that fine-tuning them to do anything useful may be more difficult.



I am coming to agree with this and am backing off of my assertion that very fine detail cannot be improved with SYSM=3. I have now found that it is possible to taylor the filters in MID5 so that, with SYSM=3 and Sharpness cranked up to 40 (!), I have DVD and HD display that is essentially the same as what I was getting with SYS=2 and Sharpness at 28. Finessing this seems to be the key. I watched last evening's Olympics in HD with SYSM=3 plus a new custom corresponding MID5 column, and on those incredible computer graphics -- the ones with the five Olympic rings about 1/2" wide on-screen -- saw a remarkably balanced picture. Obviously I'm full of beans claiming that finest detail can't be brought out with SYSM=3. I've just had a real resistance to cranking up the Sharpness control that high! Now that I've rid myself of that prejudice, I'll have more to say about it.


> Quote:
> SHF0 -- Still having some difficulty describing the effect of this control. SHF0=1 seems to give the picture a stiffer, "flatter", more textural monitor-like feeling. SHF0=0 makes a deeper, smoother, looser feeling picture.



That the picture is substantially shifted to the right with SHF0=0 indicated that a time-domain effect is being added. But it's really hard to characterize for me, too, and I have watched it smear ultra-fine texture. So, barring some epiphany, SHF0=1 is my only choice for now.


> Quote:
> PROV -- Adjusts the emphasis (ie ringing/overshoot) to the left or right of edges in small increments. If this control isn't "centered" well, the biased effect on edges will sort of pull your eye towards the left or right side of the screen in normal video content.



Experiments I have run with Sharpness turned *way* up show that PROV moves the edge enhancement to the left as you increase it from 0 thru 3, and 3 seems centered, not too far to the left. I'm choosing centered for now because it makes sense in helping these filters to develop a true unsharp-mask effect.


> Quote:
> F1LV -- Enhances the brightness of edges, especially elevating shadow details so they're easier to see. Coarseness of the effect is controlled by SYSM.



I can't confirm that there is any differential effect depending on brightness. For the interaction with SYSM, did you reduce Sharpness so its effects are not confounding you observation?


> Quote:
> LTMD~CTLV



I'm generally not happy with what these parameters do to fine images. I'm sure there may be a "rescue" mission for horrible video that justifies them, but I can't test that.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phatl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a question that i couldn't find the answer to by searching the thread. I have a patch of discoloration for lack of a better word in the upperleft hand corner right along the edge and about an inch from the top of the screen. (34XBR910)



There are two issues that interact: The beam-landing settings in the LANDING group of service mode, and the heating of the aperture-grille by a bright-white screen and its resultant (unpredictable) warping.


One of the first things I did to my set was to cure dark, bluish patches in the corners and minimize the patches like you described. Bottom line: They might occur no matter what when the whole screen is white from top to bottom at the left part of your screen, and you'll either have to live with it or reduce the Picture setting so whites are not so bright.


General procedure, using settings in LANDING group in SM:


(0) WRITE DOWN all of the original settings in LANDING for the first ten items, LT~LVPH. Put up a gray uniform screen, or a white screen with Picture cranked way down. Do NOT use a bright-white screen! Make sure your set is oriented the way you usually watch it.


(1) Set TESW to 1 to disable the four corner adjustments temporarily, and set EWSP and ENSW for brightest corners with least discoloration.


(2) Set TESW back to 0, and touch up the four settings, LT (left-top) thru RB (right-bottom), for even, bright corners with minimum discoloration. Note that if you go too far with a corner control, you may cause a green patch somewhere else -- there's lots of interaction. If you want to start from scratch, set LT~RB each to 127, and go from there. Go around the screen a few times -- these settings interact. Watch for new patches of discoloration that may sneak in. The is no guarantee of perfection, but a big improvement may be the happy result.


(3) WRITE the settings.


(4) Watch the TV for a few days with these settings to see if they're right for your normal viewing habits. I can guarantee that you will likely always see a few greenish or pinkish patches if you watch B/W movies with the Picture set high. It's the curse of the Big CRT!


----------



## rkellogg556

Looking for some basic help with geomtery and overscanning. I am using input #5 for my 360 and I would like to adjust the overscan a bit. What exactly do I need to do. I read through a thread about the service menu but I am a bit confused. Does each input have its own settings in the service menu or does a change in geometry affect all inputs for example? What about for different sources/signals? Does 1080i have to be adjusted differently than a signal that is 720P? For the most part I am mainly concerned with getting a quality display from the 360 running at 1080i. The analog signals from my cable box running through input 1 are also somewhat important or an area I may like to adjust. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. I think I will leave the color and white/black levels as is for now. However if you have any suggestions for quick a dirty color adjustments I am listening.


Thanks


----------



## penske

Hey guys

I purchased a 36xs955 about a month ago. I really think the HDTV looks great on this tv. But i have been reading this post for a while now and trying to figure out what exactly you guys are talking about. I dont know that much about this stuff and so much of it has been going over my head. I put some of the images from the earlier posts onto a memory stick and looked at them on the tv - some of the lines were "bouncing" or "moving". is this what i am supposed to see when my tv needs some tweaking? is this why some lines when i watch dvd's look the same way? so i guessing that my tv could look a lot better. or will it?

i have been reading through the posts but after a while i feel like my brain is going to explode. i want to tweak these service codes, but it seems like its going to take some time. i am about done recording all of my values as they are now. i was wondering if somewhere in these posts did KenTech or someone else list their complete list of values for everything? i would like to see what your settings would look like on my tv. is this not a good idea? is every tv different that your setting wouldn't look as good on my tv? or do you consider this info kind of proprietary and you dont want to give it away?

KenTech, from what i have read in this post from you, i am astounded of the amount of time you put into it and the information that you have given us.

i want to get into doing these tweaks but i dont feel like i have the time to do it. i am hoping to be able to see the settings of an expert on the subject and see if i notice a difference that will make me really want to go back and tweak away. i notice that the experts in these forums see things that i would never see, so the improvement that someone else sees maybe not be noticable by me, therefore making it not worth the time.

i will continue to read through the posts in the mean time - thanks for your effort in helping us out.

jon


----------



## ragingd

I have a quick question I have adjusted the vm thru vml in the 2170P-3 group and set them all to zero but now the picture looks soft or blurry is there any ideal setting to adjust these too. Thanks for any help.


----------



## rkellogg556




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeri534* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do have MID3 in my service menu, but its a whole bunch of different options than the service menu PDF..I have the exact same values as the guy in this post
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6876424
> 
> 
> I can tweak the bottom image to where its fully there, but the bottom 1-3% is very skewed to the left.
> 
> 
> Do you know about my 480p problem?



Not sure if this is what you are talking about but I just got a 30xs955 and I could not find the suggested values to change in MID3, I could only adjust MID2 to change the geometry. Changing these values did affect the 1080i from my 360.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penske* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i have been reading through the posts but after a while i feel like my brain is going to explode.



Oh, dear, I just knew this would happen!


> Quote:
> i want to tweak these service codes, but it seems like its going to take some time. i am about done recording all of my values as they are now.



Good boy!


> Quote:
> i was wondering if somewhere in these posts did KenTech or someone else list their complete list of values for everything? i would like to see what your settings would look like on my tv. is this not a good idea? is every tv different that your setting wouldn't look as good on my tv? or do you consider this info kind of proprietary and you dont want to give it away?



Oh, good God, no! Several of us have been shamelessly posting every little twitch in our thinking. There's nothing proprietary in my posts, I assure you.


A complete list of all values would be of questionable help in many areas. For geometry and color convergence, it's nearly useless, as every TV is different. (It's the *method* that is important, not the numbers.) For principle color settings, it's only a ballpark. For color-matrix and warm/cool offsets, one can come very close. For image-processing in 2170P-3 and MID5, the settings can be specified very closely for others to try, but there's the matter of preference, opinion, and associated equipment. It's in that last category where I am happy to recommend settings, and that is what the chart in post #1040 is for.


> Quote:
> i notice that the experts in these forums see things that i would never see, so the improvement that someone else sees maybe not be noticable by me, therefore making it not worth the time.



This might be true, but once you've got certain fundamental things adjusted (grayscale, color, decent image-processing), I think you would say, "Oh, I get it!" Sony has to set many parameters in the ballpark over all of the sets, as they cannot justify detailed twiddling on each one. It's a consumer product, after all, mass-manufactured. Refining those settings is what this forum is all about, but I am aware that the discussion can get quite rarified!


> Quote:
> thanks for your effort in helping us out.



You're welcome!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ragingd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a quick question I have adjusted the vm thru vml in the 2170P-3 group and set them all to zero but now the picture looks soft or blurry is there any ideal setting to adjust these too. Thanks for any help.



"Ideal" is a matter of opinion, but many of use seem to agree that *moderation* in these settings is the way to proceed, making sure there is always a way to turn VM all the way off. Here's what I recommend:


For EACH picture mode (Vivid, Standard, etc), set VM=0, VMH=6, VMM=4, and VML=2, and WRITE the settings.


Then for the different inputs/video modes you are using, set in 2170P-3: VMCR=0, VMLM=3, VMF0=0, and VMDL=8, and WRITE the settings. VMDL's effect is super-subtle, and there's some discussion of what value is good, from, say, 6 to 12. For me, getting VMDL right is small potatoes, and something in the middle seems fine. (VMF0 was much more critical!) So I use VMDL=8.


Now you can test the effects of VM on different types of programs, bearing in mind that less is probably better for high-resolution video. I typically use Low for HD, Medium for DVDs, and High or Medium for SD broadcast. Setting it to Off is not a choice for me: the right amount seems always to improve the realism of the picture. But all you would have to do is set VM to OFF in the user menu if you want this.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not sure if this is related, but one thing I noticed in tests with SYSM=3 was that SHF0=1 seemed to have a somewhat more destructive effect on fine detail in that mode.



I think I'm gonna have to retract this statement. After doing a bit more reading and poking around in the AVS archives, I think what I perceived as being a "loss or smoothing out of fine detail" with 2170P-3/SHF0=1 & SYSM=3 may actually have been the passing through/preservation of even _finer details_ with that setting.


After reading UMR's description of what appears to be a similar parameter on the GWIII, what I think 2170P-3/SHF0 may probably do is switch a simple high frequency filter/limiter on and off. And I think you may be right Ken that SHF0=0 probably _enables_ the filtration while SHF0=1 may turn it off, allowing even finer details to pass through.


SHF0=0 may look "cleaner" and "deeper", but I think that could be because some of the finest detail (and noise) is filtered out with SHF0=0. I suspect that it's the ultra fine detail and noise that gives SHF0=1 a "tighter", "flatter" more "textural" feeling.


What this would mean in a nutshell...


2170P-3/SHF0=0 reduces the bandwidth of video signal by filtering out the highest frequency info.


2170P-3/SHF0=1 increases bandwidth allowing more high-frequency detail (and also noise) through.


Agree/disagree?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Agree/disagree?



I mostly agree. Guessing what's happening is like reading chicken entrails! SHF0=0 does add some coarse-detail sharpening but at the expense of finest textures -- usually a sign of undesirable peaking. I don't like it even on ordinary SD cable broadcast. So it's SHF0=1 for me.


----------



## ragingd

Thanks KenTech. Should I turn sharpness alway down in the user menu when i make the changes. Thanks for all the help.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ragingd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Should I turn sharpness alway down in the user menu when i make the changes.



No. Making these changes does not require that you look at any image. But after you have set up VM this way, turn it off. Then raise the Sharpness on some video you commonly watch until it looks right to you. Watch out! The effects in Standard or Vivid can be particularly gross! Try Pro. There is no "right" setting for Sharpness; it might be 15, it might be 40.


When you have done that, turn on some VM, maybe Medium, to see what it looks like. VM is a subtle enhancement of image sharpness, not a primary creator of it.


----------



## ragingd

Thanks KenTech for the help. I have one more problem but it's deals with overscan. I have a oppo upconvert dvd player connected to my t.v through the dvi input. I adjusted overscan with dve test pattern 12/17 for 1080i and 720p resolutions. I first adjusted vpos, vsiz, hpos and hsiz. Then I adjusted the raster with mid3 vdhp, vdhs, vdve, and vdvs. Everything looked good until I switched to video 5 and looked at test patterns from INHD that I recorded on my cable dvr. I see more on the left side than the right on the test patterns. Thanks for any help.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ragingd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have one more problem but it's deals with overscan.



I'm going to defer to others who tinker regularly with geometry. I got my set mostly right last spring, and I haven't paid any attention to it since.


It could be that the equipment you mention has inserted a delay in the video content relative to the sync pulses, and it's a characteristic of that receiver/recorder. I don't know which horizontal phase/position parameter is input-specific so that it can be compensated.


----------



## Myke256

is there anyway to adjust horizontal bowing? i can see it a little on my set on top and bottom of the screen but can only adjust verticle


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Myke256* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> is there anyway to adjust horizontal bowing?



Do you mean curved bowing of horizontal lines, as at the top and bottom of the screen or in corners? Not easy to fix! Requires taking back off set and messing with magnets -- which can screw up other parameters, such as color convergence. A job for experts!


----------



## MaxDam77

My set has a nearly unsignificant bowing on the corners. I just I tried so many ways in the service menu to try to eliminate them with VPIN, VCEN, PIN,....it nearly impossible to have it 100% straight. I got it as straight as it could. I just got use to it and it doesn't bother me anymore. But if it is a real issue for you, take Ken's advice and have an expert do the job with magnets.


----------



## Myke256

Yea, it's minimal but noticable. it's in the 4 corners of the TV but not very distracting. This TV sure beats the crap out of my old Samsung I used to have so I can't really complain. But the red push people talk about is not there. I looked at the settings. RYR-GYB, 14-13-9-6, were the valus out of the box. Didn't touch them.


----------



## Myke256

Yea, one more thing. It seems things in the center of the screen are clearer than things on the outside. Things near the edge of the screen are more blur'd but in the middle they're crystal clear. It's really evident when text is on the screen. This is in 1080i


----------



## MaxDam77

You need the adjust the focus on the corners: 2170-D4 DF (dynamic focus adjustment in the corners).


----------



## Myke256

ok thanks. im gonna go try it. that was bothering me.


I messed around with it. I guess it's not possible to get the whole picture as clear as the center?


and here's the bowing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...256/bowing.jpg 


It really only bothers me in the top left. I just got this set a couple days ago so it's under warranty. Would Sony send a tech to fix it for free?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Myke256* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It seems things in the center of the screen are clearer than things on the outside. Things near the edge of the screen are more blur'd but in the middle they're crystal clear.



Even if the set is *perfectly* focused and adjusted, this will still be true. All you can do is minimize it. The electron beam that strikes the screen head-on near the center is hitting the screen at a considerable angle as you move toward the edges and corners, and the beam elongates into an ellipse, The procedure detailed elsewhere in this thread *here* can help you make the best of it, even without doing the internal focus adjustment.


> Quote:
> But the red push people talk about is not there. I looked at the settings. RYR-GYB, 14-13-9-6, were the valus out of the box.



Oh it's there, all right, but it doesn't bother you yet. (The "9" gives it away!) Use the color-calibration patterns on AVIA or DVE to see what's really up. That said, no one is under any obligation to make adjustments that may ultimately make no difference to them.


----------



## Myke256

I just adjusted the QPDC and it looks a lot better.







anything else I can adjust?


edit. I just adjusted the red push value's and once again you were right. I guess I just didn't notice it but not that I changed the value's to 14-14-6-4, skin looks a bit more natural and less color bleeding with red


damn ken, how do you know this much stuff


----------



## Tommy Tweaker

I just want to offer my sincere thanks to KenTech for his tireless work on determining how to make Sony TVs look better.


I have had a 34XBR910 for about two years now. A few weekends ago, I decided to see if there was someway to download or otherwise purchase a service manual for my TV. Prior to this 34 inch widescreen, I had a 36 inch 4:3 Sony for about five years. That one I had calibrated by an ISF guy, only to have the tube go bad a few weeks later. I'm not suggesting it was his fault. My complaint here is that the place I purchased it from, which at that time offered a calibration service, didn't want to honor my $350 with _another_ visit after I got a replacement tube.


Around that time, a popular home theatre magazine printed the access code to the service menu on that particular model TV in their letters section. I was familiar with adjusting grayscale by eyeballing it (having previously owned a Zenith front projector and the acccess code to its service menu), so off I went looking for the drive and cut controls and calibrated to the best of my ability. I also did some geometry work. As far as what all that other stuff was, I experimented with some of it and if I didn't see any results, I passed on by.


Well, I get the bug for a new TV every five years, so I switched to the 34XBR910. I bought it at another place that actually offered ISF calibration _for free_. They did ask, though, that I let the set run for about 300 hours before calling them over. Before that time, I had accessed the service menu and done another grayscale and geometry set-up by myself and never bothered to have them come over.


Again, I had no idea what all of those other abbreviations and acronyms were, hence my recent desire to get a service manual. Having somehow missed the posting of same on this forum while doing a net search, I bought a download from an internet site for $25. Oh, boy, I thought, that manual will tell me what all these things mean and how to adjust them. Well, you know that, aside from a few items, that just isn't true.


Finally, last weekend I came across this particular thread and rejoiced to the heavens for the information provided. I followed a lot of your advice, KenTech and you others of the ISF persuasion, and the results are marvelous so far. I'm a tweaker, as my user name implies, so I've been adjusting gamma, focus, picture enhancement, convergence, landing settings; things I didn't know I had any control over.


I do hope some day to read here that someone has figured out how to get rid of that annoying phosphor lag. I have never had my picture control higher than 13. I tried turning down YCON and PRIO to their minimum settings and all I got was a dark picture that still exhibited phosphor lag/trailing.


But, hey, all the other improvements take the sting out of that problem. Carry on!


----------



## Spiffu

Ok I've got a serious problem. I read a lot of the posts on here because i needed to adjust the picture on sony kv34hs420 because my xbox360 had some cropping issues on some games in 1080i. So I look at the pdf files, I find the settings I have to adjust everything works fine.


After months of not playing my ps2 I go to boot it up, the picture is scrambled and I don't know wtf is going on. My first thought was it was the cable but that wasn't it, but then I remembered the service settings I did, but since I had no clue what had done I just did a reset of the nvm and mid data as explained in the official help file. I figured what would bring it back to factory settings right?


Wrong, my tv is now screwed up beyond belief. I no longer have the all the screen mode settings it supposed to have, it only has normal and zoom. The picture for the independent resolutions is horribly scewed and distorted no matter what I do to it. I have a strange black scan line in the back ground during fad to black scenes.


I am at a loss at what I can do for my tv, doing a factory reset does nothing for it. My guess how this all started is that a tripped a setting unintentionally. I think sony makes that interface so convuluted on purpose to get more service calls.


If anyone on these forums know how to fix my problem, I would greatly appreciate it.


----------



## Myke256

How much does it cost to have someone come to my house with magnets and correct bowing? Not a complete calibration. Would this be under Warranty and maybe have a Sony tech come do it for free?


----------



## mapson

First, I want to thank Kentech and the many others who have all provided great insight to my new 34xs955. I'm about 2/3 through this thread and I only really understand a small portion, the amount of tweakability is amazing.


Has anyone ordered the service manual for the 34xs955 from Sony? How much was it and how concise is it?


On my 955, when it is showing 4:3 material with black bars on each side, the left side seems a little slanted while the right side appears straight, kinda like this a bit. How should I address this? A combination of 2170-2, PPHA and VANG, maybe?


/ l


----------



## ragingd

Quick question for people with xbox 360's, what picture mode do you use when playing the xbox( pro, standard or vivid) ?


----------



## AtXj

Can someone post the settings for the default Pro picture mode on the HS420.


My Pro mode was tweaked before I came upon this thread.


Thanks in advance.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ragingd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Quick question for people with xbox 360's, what picture mode do you use when playing the xbox( pro, standard or vivid) ?



Pro of coarse!


Those other modes just over exagerate jaggies and make them worse by adding excessive EE.


----------



## Myke256

I use Standard for my 360. Colors and Black Levels look better than Pro's


----------



## MaxDam77

I use PRO for everything, Gaming, DVD and TV.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tommy Tweaker* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do hope some day to read here that someone has figured out how to get rid of that annoying phosphor lag. I have never had my picture control higher than 13. I tried turning down YCON and PRIO to their minimum settings and all I got was a dark picture that still exhibited phosphor lag/trailing.



Okay, I'll risk it:

*Definitive Statement Regarding Phosphor "Lag" (Persistence)*


Please, there's something absolutely fundamental that you and others need to understand here: *Phosphor "lag" is an inherent physical property of the chemical compounds used to coat the screen, the ones that glow in the three primary colors when struck by the sweeping electron beam*. You can NOT alter this. You can NOT adjust it away.


But, by all accounts, you can make it so your eyes are less able to see it, and it has to do with ambient room lighting:


Bad: totally dark room. Your eyes adapt to the overall darkness by turning up their sensitivity, and this is worst with a picture which is mostly dark but with bright objects in it, moving subjects, graphics, etc. The phosphor lag becoms visible, and _that_ is the problem.


Good: Low to medium room lighting. (Try one of the intensities recommended on the DVE or AVIA test DVDs.) Your eyes remain light-adapted, and the parts of your vision that might see those phosphor trails aren't sensitive enough to do so. Further benefit: less eye-fatigue and irritation plus more-accurate and consistent color perception. The lag's still there -- your attention just isn't drawn to it. In particular, _don't look for it!_ Don't obsess over this -- it will do you no good! Just balance room lighting and overall picture brightness (the "Picture" control).


----------



## synyster

Just got my 960 a few weeks ago, lovely set. I popped in my avia dvd and did a crosshatch test. I have pictures below......my question is, is there anything in the service menu that can fix these issues...or will i have to call a tech?


This is the crosshatch test in widescreen mode..notice the lower left, upper right:
PIC 


The same test in full mode:
PIC 


Line bowing in the upper left:
PIC 


Just a side note....the actual picture on my tv is great. The only issue i ever see is when there is a logo or bar at the bottom and it bends slightly in the lower left. Most normal people wont notice it....but after lurking in these forums for months i was "trained" to look for issues like this. Thanks for any help.


----------



## Myke256

Synyster, unfortunately you can't fix that. You'll need to have a tech come to your house and adjust that with magnets. This is a common problem on CRT's though. Mine does it


----------



## Napoleon D

Ken Tech, or anyone else with the knowledge - i apligize to bring up an older discussion, but it was on this thread nevertheless. Per the conversation on SYSM settings. A lot of us have agreed as SYSM - 2 being the better setting, at least for component 480p material.


I recently had an ISF, everything was done well. Although i ultimately changed the SYSM-3 he had set, back over to SYSM-2. The SYSM-3 had a MIDE/POP setting of 17 to give the appropriate sharpness boost. Unfortuanely this flat picture (or whatever Sony calls it) is VERY difficult to focus on, at least for 480P material. He also set the sharpness slider at 32. I also have an XP-30 too, so the dvd material comes through very well.


After setting the SYSM back to 2, things looked better. The picture was a little noisier, but at least I got the appropriate natural sharpness boost which brought out the fine details so they were in focus. Sorry if this lingo is incorrect, but i was an English major so you're going to see a different way of describing things with me.


With SYSM-2, i am actually able to remove every edge-enhancment in the SM, which is a good thing. I had calibrated it like this prior to ISF, and it looked good then to me. These edge enhancements i refer to are the VM's, LV's, Mides turned off, etc. The picture still has the appropriate sharpness.


Here is the only minor issue. Now with SYSM-2, with the edge enhancemnts off, i am only left with the sharpness slider. The calibrator set the sharpness at 32. I imagine this setting was appropriate to compliment the SYSM 3 setting. Now that i have SYSM-2, there is a little too much noise on the screen with sharpness at 32. Now as i try to lower it a few ticks to smoothen the picture out, it now become VERY difficult to focus on. Prior to ISF, i was able to use SYSM-2 with a low sharpness setting, and STILL get a smooth look with all those details still easy to see. Again, now when i try to repeat that process by lowering sharpness form 32, i have some trouble adjusting, and focusing on the image.


I guess my question is - what is the item in the service menu that corresponds with the sharpness slider - meaning, if you adjust your sharpness slider so that the middle is where you want it (the Pro Mode offset), what corresponding item in the SM adjusts sharpness so that the offset matches the your ideal/calibrated sharpness setting? All of the sharpness adjustments in the SM seem to be the same as before calibration. But there is some item of sharpness he adjusted in the SM that was able to appropraitely match the offset of 32 for Pro - in order that the mid setting of 32 is the right setting. I'm trying to figure out what this value is. Does any anyone know?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But there is some item of sharpness he adjusted in the SM that was able to appropraitely match the offset of 32 for Pro - in order that the mid setting of 32 is the right setting. I'm trying to figure out what this value is. Does any anyone know?



What I have confirmed from precise tests is that 2170P-3 #6/SHOF is strictly an offset for the Sharpness slider, no more, no less. The ratio is 4:1 -- meaning that adding +1 to SHOF is exactly identical to adding +4 to the user Sharpness setting.


I am currently experimenting with a new possible combination with SYSM=3, with some amazing results that I will soon write up in an article, presenting an alternative to SYSM=2 as the overall "best" choice. As part of this, SYSM=3 requires more Sharpness-slider boost to make it comparable to SYSM=2, but that is inconvenient for testing. For example, if one discovers that SYSM=2 at Sharpness=30 is about the same as SYSM=3 and Sharpness=42, one could set SHOF at 3 for SYSM=3, and Sharpness could be kept in the same ballpark as with SYSM=2. Make sense?


Just remember that 4:1 ratio. If you find that your favorite combination of settings with SHOF=0 requires Sharpness cranked up to 38, you could also set SHOF to 2 and set Sharpness to 30.


SHOF is the *only* service-mode setting I know that directly and quantatively affects tha Sharpness slider. Other settings either modify the "look" of Sharpness (e.g. SYSM) or they are autonomous filters that boost or suppress sharpness independent of any user control (e.g. the MID5, 2103-1, and 3D-COMB filters).


----------



## Napoleon D

Ken- Thanks for the quick response, it really helped!


Per the SYSM 3 vs 2 - In my limited experience, unless there are other items at work, besides the sharpnes slider, I personally still think it's very difficult for SYSM 3 to look like SYSM2. No matter how high you slide sharpness on SYSM3, you still aren't giving the image the natural boost that SYSM2 gives you. Sure, you can get the image as sharp, but not without producing a lot of noise. I'm sure as you've done extensive research on this that you're probably using other values to make SYSM3 a worthy alternative to 2.


I've been trying to create an image with every enhancement turned off, with the only sharpness variable in play being the sharpness slider itself. Then, making sure the sharpness slider is at the lowest it can be without taking away fine detail, and low enough that all extra noise (not from the source) is gone.


So far it's been difficult finding a way to get the SYSM-3 appropriately sharp enough without having all sorts of artificial crap on the screen (not the technical word, i know).


It's been my mission to strip the image until the most detail comes to the surface, rather than adding any artifical detail (besides "sharpness"). SYSM-2 seems to be the best one to work with in this respect. Basically, i'm looking to get the image as naturally noise-free and smooth as possible, but still appropriately sharp enough, as in accordance with the DVE pattern (and possibly Avia).


But again, this is just what i'm looking for.


I'd still be very interested to see what you come up with for the SYSM-3 setting Ken!


----------



## AHammer16

None of the links for service code info are working on page 1 of this thread. Does anyone know of another source for the info?


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AHammer16* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> None of the links for service code info are working on page 1 of this thread. Does anyone know of another source for the info?



To which links are you referring?


I just tried a number of them and they worked for me. Some may take awhile to load (e.g. pdfs).


----------



## AHammer16

I just think i'm retarded or something. I tried to download them and they gave me error messages. Now i try using a right click and the open command and they work fine, sorry.


----------



## Napoleon D

I think the question is - with SYSM-2, what PREO, SHFO and SHAP values are best recomended to compliment that setting? With SYSM-2, you are less in need of "extra sharpness" so you would need a minimal amount of these extras correct? I see people on here recomending SHFO, PREO and SHAP all equal to 1. I have gone through your charts Ken so i have some clue as to what they do.


I'm wondering to all those using SYSM-2, what else are you using for the major sharpness SM settings.


As usual, thanks a lot everyone!


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Spiffu* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok I've got a serious problem. I read a lot of the posts on here because i needed to adjust the picture on sony kv34hs420 because my xbox360 had some cropping issues on some games in 1080i. So I look at the pdf files, I find the settings I have to adjust everything works fine.
> 
> 
> After months of not playing my ps2 I go to boot it up, the picture is scrambled and I don't know wtf is going on. My first thought was it was the cable but that wasn't it, but then I remembered the service settings I did, but since I had no clue what had done I just did a reset of the nvm and mid data as explained in the official help file. I figured what would bring it back to factory settings right?
> 
> 
> Wrong, my tv is now screwed up beyond belief. I no longer have the all the screen mode settings it supposed to have, it only has normal and zoom. The picture for the independent resolutions is horribly scewed and distorted no matter what I do to it. I have a strange black scan line in the back ground during fad to black scenes.
> 
> 
> I am at a loss at what I can do for my tv, doing a factory reset does nothing for it. My guess how this all started is that a tripped a setting unintentionally. I think sony makes that interface so convuluted on purpose to get more service calls.
> 
> 
> If anyone on these forums know how to fix my problem, I would greatly appreciate it.



Spiffu,


AFAIK, there is no way to reset the SM back to the original out-of-box settings. Once they're gone, they're gone. And using the NVM resets will only make matters worse. Might try posting another note to this fellow who was in a similar boat to see what sort of progress he's made (or perhaps try one of the other suggestions there, such as contacting Sony's nonauthorized techsup, etc.). Sounds like he was at least able to get the HD to resync on his TV.


----------



## Myke256

I'm trying to adjust the focus on the corners of my set and I tried adjusting the QPAV value and nothing changed. I move it from 0 to 63 and see no difference in clarity in the corners. Why is nothing changing? I adjusted the QPAM and got some good results and I was hoping to get even better results when I adjusted the QPAV.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AHammer16* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just think i'm retarded or something. I tried to download them and they gave me error messages. Now i try using a right click and the open command and they work fine, sorry.



Whoa!


I think that's being way too hard on yourself.







I've seen many of your posts and "retarded" just doesn't seem to fit.


Cheers!


----------



## ragingd

Can somebody explain the best way to adjust the picture control? I have been playing around with the control and can't seem to get it right? I try using the DVE disk and raising the control until I see blooming but i really don't see when it blooms. Thanks for any help on the matter.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ragingd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can somebody explain the best way to adjust the picture control? I have been playing around with the control and can't seem to get it right? I try using the DVE disk and raising the control until I see blooming but i really don't see when it blooms. Thanks for any help on the matter.



It would be helpful if you provide more detail (e.g. model tv, sources, what you're watching and your settings for "Picture" and the others).


I have a direct view set (Sony 34") and I have also found that cranking "Picture" all the way up still may not induce blooming under certain circumstances.


Let's take a look at the additional info and I'm sure you can get the help you need.


Cheers!


----------



## ragingd

Sorry about that. I have the 34xbr910. I use Pro and I mostly watch HD on the video 5 thru component cables. I set the picture setting to the midway point 31.


----------



## Napoleon D

Ragingd-


Yeah, it is almost impossible trying to adjust contrast using the test patterns since that white box/pattern never actually "blooms" no matter how high you adjust contrast - at least that's what it's like on my Sony. Anyway, it is a subjective setting, based on how you like it. Anywhere from 30% to 70% is usually good. I have it directly in the middle (before and after calibration). That's a more than all right place to keep it!


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ragingd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry about that. I have the 34xbr910. I use Pro and I mostly watch HD on the video 5 thru component cables. I set the picture setting to the midway point 31.



My experience is alot like yours and Napoleon D's. I can crank contrast all the way up and still see no blooming. However, left at that setting whites are most of the time unwatchable - just too bright.


After numerous re-calibrations I have settled at 35 clicks for contrast (Picture).


During the first couple of months I kept it at about 30-40% to avoid any chance of burn-in.


I really think Sony has made adjustments in the SM to prevent blooming and probably burn-in as well.


Bottom Line - set it to taste -and ENJOY!


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Oh trust me.. blooming you will see it!!


All you have to do is concentrate on a white area like a button up t-shirt or white object and you will notice imediately that details are lost and you can no longer make out the fine fabric on clothing.


Not to mention if you look at text they become blurry as you raise contrast and lose their crispness.


Personally i would'nt go no higher than 35, the picture looks sharper,well razor sharp is more like it with the contrast at a lower setting such as the middle or lower. The image really does "POP" off the screen aqlmost 3-d like and so razor sharp in detail.


Raising contrast losses sharpness so it's best to keep it low. for an example juts look at text or channel logos in the corner of the tv for cable, or the news tickers on news channels. You will notice that with a low contrast setting the picture looks razor sharp.


For a brighter picture use brightness instead to adjust, my sony looks like a pc monitor it's so razor sharp now and has aged nicely in the 3 years i've owned it now.


----------



## Rasdock

30xs955, and I have my picture set on 18. Picture is very difficult for me to set, but I find that anything higher than that, and the whites are just overpowering. Somebody picks up a piece of notebook paper, and it just glows. Even at 18, it's on the edge of the whites being too blown out, so there may be a service menu setting that could be adjusted.


Avia's advice seemed to be to lower white level until the pattern was gray, and then move it up until it became white. Their instructions actually weren't very clear for the picture setting, but that's what I got out of it. I have a hard time distinguishing when it goes from gray to white, but it looks like 16 to 18 is about it.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh trust me.. blooming you will see it!!
> 
> 
> All you have to do is concentrate on a white area like a button up t-shirt or white object and you will notice imediately that details are lost and you can no longer make out the fine fabric on clothing.
> 
> 
> Not to mention if you look at text they become blurry as you raise contrast and lose their crispness.
> 
> 
> Personally i would'nt go no higher than 35, the picture looks sharper,well razor sharp is more like it with the contrast at a lower setting such as the middle or lower. The image really does "POP" off the screen aqlmost 3-d like and so razor sharp in detail.
> 
> 
> Raising contrast losses sharpness so it's best to keep it low. for an example juts look at text or channel logos in the corner of the tv for cable, or the news tickers on news channels. You will notice that with a low contrast setting the picture looks razor sharp.
> 
> 
> For a brighter picture use brightness instead to adjust, my sony looks like a pc monitor it's so razor sharp now and has aged nicely in the 3 years i've owned it now.



Matt,


What I ws saying was that when calibrating with a calibration disc, you can crank contrast all the way up and still not see the blooming on the test pattern as guided by Avia (and others) as the point at which to back off. Yes, in real life, contrast set too high is a bad thing. But this poster is referring specifically to trying to calibrate his set with the disc and in that situation, the upper block of the pattern does not bleed even with contrast set at its highest setting. He's just trying to follow the instruction as closely as possible - as we all try to do.


----------



## Ev01vEd

What's the most reliable way to correct overscan for all inputs and resolutions? I used my Samsung upconverting dvd player to adjust everything, but when I view the overscan pattern on my dvd Tivo unit or 360 it appears to push the image to the right some, and even up a little on the Tivo. But on the Samsung it was perfect. So what should I go by? The KV-30HS420 does not have any media slots. I used both Avia and DVE to test.


Thanks.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Matt,
> 
> 
> What I ws saying was that when calibrating with a calibration disc, you can crank contrast all the way up and still not see the blooming on the test pattern as guided by Avia (and others) as the point at which to back off. Yes, in real life, contrast set too high is a bad thing. But this poster is referring specifically to trying to calibrate his set with the disc and in that situation, the upper block of the pattern does not bleed even with contrast set at its highest setting. He's just trying to follow the instruction as closely as possible - as we all try to do.



Blooming on a CRT can be explained as loosing detail of the individual white dots. When the RGB phosphors are all on full, you get white. If you over drive the phosphors, the dots start to glow and thus grow in apparent size. {Try looking at a clear light bulb on a dimmer. As you start to increase the light output, the coil element will start to glow and at a point, you can't see the coils, just a bright line (depends on how tight the coil is wound).} This glow/growth is blooming and results in an overlapping of dots leading to a loss of resolution. Loosing detail in whites, like wrinkles or buttons on a white shirt, is clipping and this can occur without blooming. Blooming can occur without clipping.


Excessive contrast in the DV CRT can also wash out black levels as the bright white reflects back into the tube reducing the ANSI contrast ratio. High contrast/picture settings may work with high ambient light, the TV is more comfortable to watch at lower contrast settings in low ambient light settings. The DV CRT is really too small to be watching without a bias light or some light in the room.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ragingd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can somebody explain the best way to adjust the picture control? I have been playing around with the control and can't seem to get it right? I try using the DVE disk and raising the control until I see blooming but i really don't see when it blooms. Thanks for any help on the matter.



Best place to look for blooming is probably on thin white horizontal lines especially on a light grey background. If contrast is adjusted too high, the lines will start to look fatter and blurrier. They should look thin, well-defined and "un-blurry".


Attached is the sort of pattern I use for my 34XBR800. Not sure how well this would work for others though since I input this directly via DVI in progressive mode, and the line is only 1-pixel wide. As contrast is increased on my TV though, the white line on the light grey box will start to become fatter and eventually separate into two distinct lines (not a good thing clarity-wise IMO), so I try to keep contrast at or below a level of good clarity on this line (and adjust ambient lighting accordingly). If you search through the patterns on DVE you should find similar images to work with there as well. Just make sure you have good definition on thin horizontal white lines.


DVE also contains a Needle Pulse pattern (#4 in Display Setup Patterns). This checks for screen regulation/distortion issues I believe (ie expansion or warping of the raster in bright areas) which will probably start to show at even lower contrast levels than blooming/clarity issues. As you increase Contrast the vertical line will start to bend in the middle.


Another pattern that's handy is the Ambient Light Reference (pattern #16 in Display Setup Patterns on DVE), as Ken mentioned above. Once you've set Contrast, your background behind/around the TV generally should be no brighter than the grey swatch. Brightness/black level will tend to drift on the TV as you change Contrast as well, so use the PLUGE to verify Brightness is set appropriately for your new Contrast/ambient lighting conditions.


If you try the attached pattern on your TV btw, I would not recommend leaving it on screen very long because it contains rather high RGB values and could cause some burn effects if left on screen especially at higher contrast levels.

_Edit: Revised pattern and included one for both video (16-235) and computer (0-255) RGB levels._


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Attached is the pattern I use for my 34XBR800.



By coincidence, I'm going to NY in two weeks to set up my cousin's 34XBR800 with the SA8300 DVR I talked him into finally getting from his cable company. He's not had HD before, even though he's had the set for several years. I had connected his Sony DVD player to the set with component video cables when I was there last, so that he could at least see what true 480p 16:9 could look like. I've been pestering him about upgrading his SD cable box ever since.


Anyway, he finally succombed this weekend so I'm using it as an opportunity to visit (and have good east coast NY Chinese food!) and to get him properly installed into the world of HD and DVR's. I plan to bring my copy of DVE to assist in the setup, as well as my own printed chart of XBR960 service menu items and before/after values. Naturally his set will be quite different but I will at least have my notes for reference.


I only have the service manual for my Sony 34XBR960. The cover does not include the XBR800 in the relevant product family of sets, so I don't know if my chart of codes/meanings and values would still apply. I don't even know if entry into the service menu for the XBR800 is the same as the method used for the XBR960.


Since you appear to have an XBR800, can you help? Can you tell me if entry into the service menu, write/save, exit, and detail items for this older set are the same or different as for the XBR960? I'm guessing the XBR960 has many more items available than the older XBR800, but there might be some important basic commonalities and overlaps (e.g. in the 2170P-4 group, for "red push" elimination) and knowing that would be very helpful if I need or want to make fine-tuning adjustments based on DVE. Also, I'm guessing I may need to tweak for convergence and some geometry problems, and I'd like to know how to do that on the XBR800.


If not, how do you enter the service menu, etc., for the XBR800? Do you happen to have a machine-readable chart (XLS, PDF, DOC, etc.) of XBR800 service menu items that you could send me? One that would include YOUR own personal settings would be terrific, if that existed. I realize all sets differ and your values might not be totally appropriate, but again just having something for reference is very helpful.


Sorry to ask all this here, but you've turned off PM's which is how I really wanted to communicate.


Thanks very much for any help you can offer on XBR800 tweaks.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> By coincidence, I'm going to NY in two weeks to set up my cousin's 34XBR800 with the SA8300 DVR I talked him into finally getting from his cable company. He's not had HD before, even though he's had the set for several years.



Zoiks! If all he's been watchin on that damn thing is 480i/480p, then he's probably in for a nice change.


The XBR800s work pretty much the same as the 960 with respect to most parameters discussed here. The main differences I've noticed are that some newer Sonys have the ability to store different User Menu display settings for each input (Mode Memory), and some also have two different color decoder configs ("Normal" and "Monitor"). If for some reason you need to change the default User Menu display settings (UPIC - UTMP), those can be found in the 2170P-4 section on the XBR800 instead of in QM or QT (the XBR800 has no QM, QT or LANDING sections).


Don't quote me on this, but AFAIK, most of the other pertinent controls (including the 2170P-1 grey scale/temperature controls, 2170P-4/RYR-GYB color decoders, D_CONV convergence controls, 2170P-3 input/signal offsets and VM controls, CXA2151 offsets, not to mention most or possibly all of the geometry controls) appear to work about the same as the 960. There are alot more similarities between the TVs than differences (so no need to be shy about asking questions here). Having said that though, I wouldn't just go wantonly inputting values from your 960 chart on an XBR800, or any other model for that matter. Obviously the adjustment needs to be approached with a little more common sense than that, and tailored to each TV to some extent. Entry, navigation, and writing of parameters in the SM is the same on the XBR800 as on the 960.


> Quote:
> Do you happen to have a machine-readable chart (XLS, PDF, DOC, etc.) of XBR800 service menu items that you could send me? One that would include YOUR own personal settings would be terrific, if that existed. I realize all sets differ and your values might not be totally appropriate, but again just having something for reference is very helpful.



Regrettably I don't really have anything like this. Plus my settings are still in flux, and my TV is so heavily customized/tailored for the DVI computer input to the detriment of anything else at this point that my parameters probably wouldn't do you much good anyway. If you're experienced in navigating the XBR960 SM though, I don't really think you'll have any problem with the 800.


Editorial note: Even after 3+ years of owning the XBR800, I still have sort of a like/dislike relationship with this TV (I was gonna say love/hate but that's probably too strong). I _dislike_ (and sometimes even border on hating) what the high persistence phosphors, antiglare coating and Trinitron grille do to my eyes, and have never fully adjusted to those characteristics (though better gamma control, edge control and ambient lighting have definitely helped some with these issues). So until now, I've generally only been able watch it for relatively short stints before my eyes say they've had enough for the evening.


However I _like_ what it can do picture-wise/black level-wise with everything adjusted more-or-less perfectly. And it probably is the most accurate color reference I've got at the moment. Last night I watched the Superbit of Underworld, and with some of the latest tweaks to ambient lighting and edge controls, the picture looked _really_ good. Selene was looking very fine indeed in her black latex, and I didn't find myself straining to make out the detail in all those dark shadowy scenes even once. I look forward though to the day when I'll be able to replace the XBR800 with a FP which is hopefully a bit easier on my eyes and less of a nuisance to adjust (since there should be no geometry, convergence, focus, etc. issues to contend with).


In the meantime, a good ambient lighting arrangement and some kind of player-based gamma control are key for me with this TV. I'm in pretty much complete agreement with both Ken's and Glen's remarks above re the former (see next post).


You might also want to look over some of Ken's remarks re optimizing 480i. 480i has never looked too hot on my TV, but I'd like to believe it could be massaged into something more usable by doing some more tinkering with the various edge/detail filtering, VM, etc. controls in the 2103-1, 2170P-3, and MID5 sections. Switching SYSM to 2 or 3 might perhaps reduce the coarseness of 480i artifacts for example. Adjusting those parameters might be too big a job for a brief visit though.


The Cinemotion feature doesn't work too bad on the XBR800 for de-interlacing film-based 480i, especially problematic (ie badly flagged) DVDs, and television. And the only way to leverage that feature is via 480i.


----------



## ADU

I've been experimenting with different ambient lighting pretty much since the day I bought my 34XBR800, but I haven't really gotten it quite right until just recently. And it really makes a big difference. If you haven't given too much thought to this aspect of your viewing experience before, I think you'll frankly be amazed at how much a more ideal ambient lighting scheme can enhance the picture on a CRT.


The lighting principals on DVE are just about right on the money IMO. I'm not sure how important the color scheme of your background is, but there really is an advantage I think in having some _depth_ behind the TV to focus on, and using the right illumination. If your background is fairly neutral in color, so much the better I suppose, but I think that may be less crucial than simply getting space behind the TV and using proper illumination.


Conjoined rooms (and an understanding significant other I suppose) like a combined living/dining area or family/game room would be ideal I suspect, because you could place the TV at the division between the areas, and then adjust the illumination in the dining/game/etc. area behind it to provide the perfect bias/background for TV viewing. I would not recommend using dimmers though because they flicker. (And I'd make sure the TV's secured if there's alot of traffic around it, so it doesn't fall over an injure someone.)


Also, try to avoid strong "hot spots" in your background lighting as well, especially directly behind the TV. The more diffused and evenly distributed the illumination behind the TV, the better IMO. And also the closer to 6500K, the better (if that's feasible). Some track lighting dimly illuminating the floor/furniture or walls, or accent lights in the far corners on the floor are the kind of thing that I think might work well. Lamps might work okay as well, provided they're off to the sides and rather dim with dark shades.


A pair of 15-watt screw-in 6500K fluorescents I bought at Walmart were even too bright to use in lamps for bias/background lighting my CRT because they each put out the equivalent light of a 65 watt incandescent bulb. Although those worked okay for an LCD, I think you really need something a bit dimmer or more diffuse for a Sony CRT. (Maybe with darker walls/furniture they'd work better though.) I'd avoid using "enhanced-spectrum" incandenscent bulbs like GE's Reveal bulbs btw, because they tend to burn considerably hotter than regular incandescents or fluorescents and could be a potential fire/burn hazard. LEDs/rope lights might have some potential though. You could probably get very creative with those.


I would try to confine most of the illumination to the room behind the TV though, and keep the viewing area in front of the TV darker to avoid reflections off the screen (especially if your TV has a silver bezel like mine).


As mentioned above, the Ambient Light Reference pattern on DVE (or AVIA?) is probably a good guide for the level of background lighting to try to stay within. I'm in agreement wth Ken and Glen though that you don't wanna go too dark, because issues like diffuse internal reflections and phosphor lag will start to become more of a nuisance, and the contrast between TV and surroundings will be too stressful on your eyes.


A gamma control would provide even greater flexibility in how all these factors (contrast, brightness, ambient lighting) can be adjusted btw, and probably save some fiddling with settings on the TV.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tommy Tweaker* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do hope some day to read here that someone has figured out how to get rid of that annoying phosphor lag. I have never had my picture control higher than 13.



FWIW, I concur with everything Ken said re this above. Something else I routinely do when viewing DVDs in progressive mode is run my player gamma/midtones a bit on the _darker_ side. Although this doesn't really eliminate the phosphor lag, I think in combination with a good ambient lighting scheme it may help to suppress some of the stray light/diffuse internal reflection that tends to fog-up/wash-out the blacks on Sony tubes, and perhaps keep some of the phosphor lag on star fields and what-have-you a little more below one's black level radar. Darkening the midtones/gamma results in a more contrasty image however, which may be more strenuous on some eyes (especially if other parameters on the TV aren't well-adjusted). So it's something you'd have to experiment with. You might find for example that you get better results _boosting_ the brightness of midtones and also your ambient/background lighting instead. I think good control over background lighting and gamma, in addition to the other suggestions mentioned previously may help some though. As always YMMV.


Running Brightness/black level a few ticks darker might be worth trying as well.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Zoiks! If all he's been watchin on that damn thing is 480i/480p, then he's probably in for a nice change.



Indeed. His son had him buy a Yamaha RX-V3300 receiver and install 5.1 speakers... for that "someday" when it would be usable. Well the time has now arrived. I'm planning on connecting their SA8300 to the Yamaha with optical, and I think they're in for a real treat since they've never actually heard DD5.1 from their prior SD cable box setup.


They're really not much TV or DVD watchers, but I think things are about to change... not just when he sees shows in HD but also because they now will have a DVR. Their viewing habits are about to be really radicalized.




> Quote:
> The XBR800s work pretty much the same as the 960 with respect to most parameters discussed here.



Excellent news! Then I'll bring my own chart along, as well as a fresh clean printout to use on his set (to write down the current values as well as what I change things to). I should be able to find my way around (even with differences in the two sets) with no problem.




> Quote:
> The main differences I've noticed are that some newer Sonys have the ability to store different User Menu display settings for each input (Mode Memory), and some also have two different color decoder configs ("Normal" and "Monitor"). If for some reason you need to change the default User Menu display settings (UPIC - UTMP), those can be found in the 2170P-4 section on the XBR800 instead of in QM or QT (the XBR800 has no QM, QT or LANDING sections).



Thanks for the insight.



> Quote:
> Don't quote me on this, but AFAIK, most of the other pertinent controls (including the 2170P-1 grey scale/temperature controls, 2170P-4/RYR-GYB color decoders, D_CONV convergence controls, 2170P-3 input/signal offsets and VM controls, CXA2151 offsets, not to mention most or possibly all of the geometry controls) appear to work about the same as the 960. There are alot more similarities between the TVs than differences (so no need to be shy about asking questions here).



More good news.




> Quote:
> Having said that though, I wouldn't just go wantonly inputting values from your 960 chart on an XBR800, or any other model for that matter. Obviously the adjustment needs to be approached with a little more common sense than that, and tailored to each TV to some extent. Entry, navigation, and writing of parameters in the SM is the same on the XBR800 as on the 960.



I was hoping that would be true, so this is a pleasant piece of news.


Many thanks for the info. As far as 480i viewing, I think they watch the news! I'm mostly concerned with getting their 720p/1080i results to be stunning so that's where I'll concentrate.


So with my experience on my XBR960, I guess I'm armed (and dangerous) to deal with his XBR800. I really do believe they'll be thrilled.


----------



## Rasdock




> Quote:
> A pair of 15-watt screw-in 6500K fluorescents I bought at Walmart were even too bright to use in lamps for bias/background lighting my CRT because they each put out the equivalent light of a 65 watt incandescent bulb. Although those worked okay for an LCD, I think you really need something a bit dimmer or more diffuse for a Sony CRT. (Maybe with darker walls/furniture they'd work better though.) I'd avoid using "enhanced-spectrum" incandenscent bulbs like GE's Reveal bulbs btw, because they tend to burn considerably hotter than regular incandescents or fluorescents and could be a potential fire/burn hazard. LEDs/rope lights might have some potential though. You could probably get very creative with those, and string them along walls, furniture, moldings, etc.



Hee hee. Here's what I'm using for the moment:











It's got a pair of orange 5W bulbs. I don't know if it's the ideal solution or not, but it's better than the pitch black room I used to have. It doesn't affect the picture at all, so I'm okay with it for now.


One thing I dislike about this TV is the antenna and cable sharing the same settings. I have my Pro set up for HD, but it looks really dull with the cable. I'm switching to Standard when I use cable for now. Any better suggestions? Also, this is unlikely, but is there a service menu setting to change the black bars on a 4:3 image to gray?


----------



## luw123

Hello there

I've been reading this great post for some time

I have successfully entered service mode and made some adjustments. But it seems I just can't write it into the memory. After I hit mute button, "service" changed to "write" , then I hit enter button very quickly but nothing happens. No charaters turning red, "write" just changed to "service". And after I turned off and on the TV again, no changes done.


I'm a bit confused. I didn't switch channel or do other things after making adjustments.

Can anybody help me ??

My sony TV is a very old model, KV-SF29T80.


----------



## Napoleon D

I have been having a recent dilemna related a little to what has been talked about here. I got an ISF calibration over a month ago. I changed very few settings for my own benefit - I changed SYSM from 3 to 2 (which meant i could remove the MIDE-17 setting that was complimenting it), and I adjusted a color saturation a couple of ticks. These were very minor changes, but helped in a major way. As i've said before, I have problems viewing an image set on SYSM-3, as i feel the image comes out too soft overall as it lacks sharpness peaks, and hence is difficult to focus on. The only way to make SYSM3 aggreeable is to add edge/sharp enhancement, which results in an image that's much too noisy. SYSM-2 seems to give you the appropriate sharpness boost with out needing the extra stuff to slap on the image.


Anyway, after the couple tweaks i came out with an image very agreeable to the eyes..


Without having changed anything since, i decided it was the right time to hit "flash focus" in the user menu. Well, the results definitely looked different. The covergence indeed looked MUCH tighter, as the image looked much cleaner/smoother as well. The problem, the image now comes across as too soft for the eyes. It is as if my eyes now want to look past the screen as if i was far-sighted (I am not). In other words, the image is so soft my eyes don't want to focus on the image now. Others in the room commented unbiasedly about this as well.


Again, it looks as if the calibrator saved "flash focus" to his convergence settings. I can say the image does look great. But image greatness is 2 things, looking good, and being agreeable to your eyes.


I'm not sure what's happening. Do i merely have to wait for convergence to drift a little now, as silly as that sounds? I need an image that comes to the surface and meets your eyes (but not too much sharpness). I felt that i had that, and ruined it by using a feature (automatic convergence) which I am supposed to be using.


As of now I have SYSM set on 2, without any MIDE, LV or VM adjustment activated - just pureness all around. I honestly feel that any more sharpness addition degrade the image. All of my user settings are leveled out (including sharpness) and they should stay there. Sliding sharpness up or down does very little at this point.


As I like to say, it is like seeing an attractive girl out who is wearing too much makeup. It might make her look better from afar, but the closer you look, the more coarse, flakey and scary her face looks. Now grab a towel and wipe up about half of that stuff off, she looks normal now, as she's just accentuating her beauty without overdoing it to the point of looking fake...... you get the point.


But my real point is i had every edge-enhancement stripped off with my SYSM at 2, and thought i had a great image, with still plenty of sharpness left over. Now that the colors are perfectly converged, i have tighter imges, but a less sharp image that we need to strain to focus on. It wasn't like this prior to flash focus.


Can someone explain what i'm seeing, or better yet, how i might be able to fix this?


Thanks!


P.S. Ken did you ever figure out that SYSM-3 alternative to SYSM2?


Update: I checked convergence on the Avia, and it is good. The "flash focus" apparently was set on an unbeleivably tight convergance setting. I think now that the colors are converged - the image appears softer only because the choppy outlining created by drifting convergence has been removed. It is so well-converged it is just taking my eyes a while getting used to the image.


----------



## williamtassone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *luw123* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello there
> 
> 
> I have successfully entered service mode and made some adjustments. But it seems I just can't write it into the memory. After I hit mute button, "service" changed to "write" , then I hit enter button very quickly but nothing happens..



Try MUTE Zero


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But my real point is i had every edge-enhancement stripped off with my SYSM at 2, and thought i had a great image, with still plenty of sharpness left over. Now that the colors are perfectly converged, i have tighter imges, but a less sharp image that we need to strain to focus on. It wasn't like this prior to flash focus.
> 
> 
> Can someone explain what i'm seeing, or better yet, how i might be able to fix this?



Try increasing sharpness to see if it improves. Some models actually soften the image when sharpness is reduced too much. You can use the Avia sharpness test pattern and set sharpness to the point the white edges (too much sharpness) to the right of the black lines just disappears.


----------



## Napoleon D

Glen - thanks for response.


Sharpness is leveled out in the user menu. I have it to the point where lowering it and raising it does very little. I think the image is sharp enough, however the image is so tightly/well converged that it is taking my eyes a while to adjust to it. Prior to the converegce (flash focus) there was no eyestrain, although the image wasn't quite as tight - go figure. But I do know the calibrator saved "flash focus" to his convergence settings, so what i'm seeing is an improvement. It just is such a clear and tight image that again, it takes a while to adjust to.


----------



## ragingd

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm still trying to get the picture setting to my liking. Another question, does adjusting the **** in the service menu help?


----------



## vazel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *synyster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just got my 960 a few weeks ago, lovely set. I popped in my avia dvd and did a crosshatch test. I have pictures below......my question is, is there anything in the service menu that can fix these issues...or will i have to call a tech?
> 
> 
> This is the crosshatch test in widescreen mode..notice the lower left, upper right:
> PIC
> 
> 
> The same test in full mode:
> PIC
> 
> 
> Line bowing in the upper left:
> PIC
> 
> 
> Just a side note....the actual picture on my tv is great. The only issue i ever see is when there is a logo or bar at the bottom and it bends slightly in the lower left. Most normal people wont notice it....but after lurking in these forums for months i was "trained" to look for issues like this. Thanks for any help.



i have this too. i see someone responded to your post saying only a tech can fix it by opening the tv and messing with magnets.


so anyone out there, there's really no way for me to do this by meself? no guide out there? i'm willing to take the chance of me electrocuting myself. i've opened electronics before to mod things.


----------



## mapson

*vazel, synyster's* pics show what I think is tilting on the 1st and 2nd pic, and a overscan problem maybe on the 3rd pic. Tilt is easily adjustable, vertical lines bowing is also adjustable in the SM, also on the 1st and 2nd pics, what looks like "barrel distortion" on the horizontal (horizontal bowing) is not as easy to correct. The 3rd pic looks like the box is cut off on the top and left side. I don't know too much about the 960 but on my 955, I would see a complete box with all 4 edges. Maybe a overscan issue?


----------



## synyster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mapson* /forum/post/0
> 
> *vazel, synyster's* pics show what I think is tilting on the 1st and 2nd pic, and a overscan problem maybe on the 3rd pic. Tilt is easily adjustable, vertical lines bowing is also adjustable in the SM, also on the 1st and 2nd pics, what looks like "barrel distortion" on the horizontal (horizontal bowing) is not as easy to correct. The 3rd pic looks like the box is cut off on the top and left side. I don't know too much about the 960 but on my 955, I would see a complete box with all 4 edges. Maybe a overscan issue?



You know, I noticed some tilting issues when playing games and watching tv, so i made an adjustment to +2/+3....now everything is fine. I will rerun the tests and see what kind of results I get. As far as the 3rd pic, I not so sure if its overscan....I'm sure thats the way the box is supposed to look but then again I could be wrong. I was more concerned about the line bowing.


----------



## MaxPlanck

I have a rather old Sony 32" set, the KV-32S42, but the Service Codes are different than most I find listed anywhere on the internet and difficult to decipher what most of them do.


I know what several of them are and do, but not all.


For example, there's one called EYSW, which at first glance, I thought referred to "EYeShadoW", meaning that eyeshadow effect you get when the set needs convergence set, that green or magenta haze that develops around the eyes.


Of course, I seriously doubt Sony would have meant for EYSW to stand for "EYeShadoW" and am certain it has nothing to do with convergence.


But for that and others, a whole slew beginning with "C", another beginning with "P", none of these or others really match up much with any of the more generic Sony Service Code charts I've run across so far.


Does anyone out there by any chance have a breakdown of the Service Codes for the model KV-32S42 they could post to the board, if possible?


Thanks if anyone does BTW !!


----------



## mapson

I don't recall this being posted...


The 30, 34, 36 xs955 and the 34XBR960 series have a self diagnostic screen display. To bring up this screen, press...[DISPLAY] > Channel [5] > Sound volume [-] > Power [ON].


This will show serious fault counts. To exit menu, just power off.

*ONLY reset to zero after repairs has been completed to determine faults AFTER the completion of repairs. Doing so will also reset all user functions including auto programming and picture settings.*


Again, to EXIT menu, just power off, to clear the values, see the next sentence.


To clear the count values and reset to zero, press...Channel[8] > [ENTER].


Not sure if it works for other different models of Sonys.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Thanks for posting that mapson!


I have run across it once when making an "error" when entering SM -- I wasn't sure if I had accidently pressed :[2] instead of [5], or [-] instead of [+]/etc ... Now I know!


----------



## DeepFreezed

I was wondering why no one else mention this in the thread but yesterday while fiddling around 2170D, MID3 or 2170P I was able to do geometry adjustment. I am going to look in to it this weekend. I have XBR960 and geometry is little off. It looks like the sketch below but not that extreme. I also need to get my overscan to around 2%.


/----------/

/----------/

/----------/


Is there any reason I shouldn't be setting these values?


Thanks


----------



## mapson

Your pic looks like 2170D-1, 15. VANG (AFC Angle) would help. There may be other settings but that's the one that I think can help.


----------



## DeepFreezed




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mapson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your pic looks like 2170D-1, 15. VANG (AFC Angle) would help. There may be other settings but that's the one that I think can help.



thx


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DeepFreezed* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was wondering why no one else mention this in the thread but yesterday while fiddling around 2170D, MID3 or 2170P I was able to do geometry adjustment. I am going to look in to it this weekend. I have XBR960 and geometry is little off. It looks like the sketch below but not that extreme. I also need to get my overscan to around 2%. Is there any reason I shouldn't be setting these values?



Adjusting overscan has been discussed many times in this and other threads, in this and even other forums. Yes, the 2170D-1, 2170D-2 and MID3 groups are relevant. That's where you will be to accomplish your tweak.


Please start here and download the OVERSCAN.ZIP test pattern (if you can present that JPG from your PC to your Sony at 1920x1080i). You're going to need something like this, or DVE/AVIA setup DVD's, in order to have a substantive method to accomplish what you want.


----------



## DeepFreezed




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Adjusting overscan has been discussed many times in this and other threads, in this and even other forums. Yes, the 2170D-1, 2170D-2 and MID3 groups are relevant. That's where you will be to accomplish your tweak.
> 
> 
> Please start here and download the OVERSCAN.ZIP test pattern (if you can present that JPG from your PC to your Sony at 1920x1080i). You're going to need something like this, or DVE/AVIA setup DVD's, in order to have a substantive method to accomplish what you want.



Yes I went through your thread yesterday. Thx for the info.


----------



## vazel

can someone with a KV-30HS420 give me the default values for these settings? i changed them and stupidly enough i didn't write the default values.


VSZO

VLIN

VSCO

VCEN

VPIN

MPIN

PIN

UCP

LCP

PPHA

VANG

LANG

VBOW

LBOW


----------



## JBlix51

I am new to this but I know exactly what I need to fix except there's one problem. I don't know what menu the last thing I wanna fix is under.



Alright when I fix these:

2170D-1 0 VPOS

2170D-1 1 VSIZ

2170D-2 1 HPOS

2170D-2 2 HSIZ

MID3

0 VDHP

1 VDHS

2 VDVE

3 VDVS


There is one problem, my image doesn't fully fill up the top part of the canvas by atleast 1/2 inch. I shrink down everything so it's a lil box inside the full viewing area.

_______________________


----------



## MaxDam77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vazel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> can someone with a KV-30HS420 give me the default values for these settings? i changed them and stupidly enough i didn't write the default values.
> 
> 
> VSZO
> 
> VLIN
> 
> VSCO
> 
> VCEN
> 
> VPIN
> 
> MPIN
> 
> PIN
> 
> UCP
> 
> LCP
> 
> PPHA
> 
> VANG
> 
> LANG
> 
> VBOW
> 
> LBOW



The default setting can't be trusted 100%, you will have to try to correct them on your own or call a tech to fix your Geometry. it really depends on what you did. On the previous pages on this thread you have the pdf files of the geometry to help you to figure which do what. It takes times a patience., hours, days,...


----------



## vazel

i got it all back to normal. yea, for the past couple days i've been racking my head over trying to fix some bowing but nothing i do fixes it. i've read that stuff like this is normal for crt tubes or that if it is fixable it can only be fixed by a tech opening the tv and messing with magnets in there... i'll just learn to live with it.


----------



## DeepFreezed

I am on a XBR960


can someone plz tell me why we are making overscan changes in MID3 not MID1?


----------



## mapson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JBlix51* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is one problem, my image doesn't fully fill up the top part of the canvas by atleast 1/2 inch. I shrink down everything so it's a lil box inside the full viewing area.
> 
> 
> Ok that's basically what I mean. The image won't fill up the canvas where the red is and the things I listed that I mess with don't move the image up to cover that area. It is suppose to be viewing space though because it's lighter then the black background behind that, or is it not viewing space?



If it only is on top then what comes to mind is it "may" be 2170D-3 4 TBLK but I think there are others that affect that condition as well. On the other hand, there should be a black border all around the screen and that is normal. You can tell easily with the tv off.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DeepFreezed* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am on a XBR960. Can someone plz tell me why we are making overscan changes in MID3 not MID1?



I believe MID3 is specifically for the HD inputs and resolutions... 480p, 720p, 1080i.


I have not touched MID1 or MID2, which I believe are specifically for 480i or other SD resolutions or inputs.


I may be wrong in my understanding, but I only adjusted MID3 and have perfectly acceptable 16:9 presentation with about 1 1/2% overscan on INPUT5 and INPUT6. My 4:3 presentation on INPUT1 and INPUT3 also looks perfect (without any special adjustment), so maybe there's some "overlap" in effect from MID3 (or not).


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DeepFreezed* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am on a XBR960
> 
> 
> can someone plz tell me why we are making overscan changes in MID3 not MID1?



You do not control overscan in either...!


You control the raster size and thereby the overscan in 2170D-1 and 2. You control the position of the picture from the different inputs and resolutions in the MID settings. 480i in MID2 and the rest in MID3.


You cannot make input and resolution specific changes in MID1.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You do not control overscan in either...!
> 
> 
> You control the raster size and thereby the overscan in 2170D-1 and 2. You control the position of the picture from the different inputs and resolutions in the MID settings. 480i in MID2 and the rest in MID3.
> 
> 
> You cannot make input and resolution specific changes in MID1.



Can't use MID-3 with the Sony 30HS420


----------



## KenTech

*Tuning the 2103 Processor for the Cleanest, Sharpest Picture*


Sony calls this chip the Color Decoder, and there are separate sections for the main picture and for the TwinView or PIP sub-picture. We will concern ourselves with only the main picture, whose adjustments are found in service mode, group 2103-1. (You can likely apply these settings as well to 2103-2, if it's important to you; I just can't confirm anything.)


NOTE: These adjustments affect only 480i video, not 480p, nor any HD sources. Included are antenna/cable, component-video, digital SD from ATSC tuner or QAM cable. (Can't confirm HDMI.)


REQUIRED: The AVIA DVD, specifically the Sharpness video test pattern. (DVE can also be used, if that's what you have. See details in (2), *here* .) And a 480i feed from your DVD player, of course. S-video or component is fine.

*What is tuning mean?* There are digital locked-loops or synchronizing phenomena in the CXA2103 chip that are integral to the digital signal processing in that chip, and it appears that the phase alignment of the video signal is important to eliminate ringing. This is controlled by 2103-1 #19/PPHA. It can have any value from 0 thru 15, and if one varies this from 0 up, the picture shifts slightly to the right for each up-tick, but the picture also changes in the precision of its detail. 7 is dead-center and is the default for this parameter, but it may not be optimum for your set. If you put up the difficult Sharpness pattern from AVIA and vary PPHA from 0 thru 15, you will see about every 5-6 steps that the pattern will occasionally appear very clean, without any multi-cycle ringing or garbage. Other settings will show this garbage, more or less. Let's call these garbage-free PPHA settings the sweet spots.


There are multiple sweet spots for any one TV, and those PPHA values for your set will not necessarily match someone else's; i.e., yours have to be treated as though they're unique, and the object is to find those sweet spots! That's why I can't simply list the settings for my set and say, Try these. Turns out, finding them is relatively easy, and the improvement in picture quality is really quite substantial: improved sharpness and (for lack of a better term) clarity, or freedom from grunge, especially valuable for high-quality SD programming over, say, cable and from DVD. Here is a method that will get you there. (Write the old settings down before changing them!)


(1) Important: Warm up your TV for 30 or more minutes, then restart it into service mode. If you started in service mode, you must power off and on again (into service mode) after warmup!


(2) Put AVIA into your DVD player, and go to the Sharpness test pattern. (Top menu > Advanced AVIA > Video Test Patterns > Resolution > Sharpness). Pause it so it doesn't keep advancing on its own. Display it on the TV in 480i. The video-mode indicator in the SM text should say 480I. For clarity, set DRC mode to CineMotion or Progressive, and use the Pro picture mode.


(3) In group 2103-1, set #6-8, SHAP-SHF0-PREO, to 1 - 3 - 1. Then go to #16, SSMD, and set it to 2. WRITE the settings.


(4) Go to #14, AFCG, and confirm that it is at 0. Change it if it's not, and WRITE.


(5) Now go to #19, PPHA, and survey the settings from 0 thru 15. Note what you see in the center of the Sharpness pattern. For certain values of PPHA, the crossed lines will appear very clean, in contrast to some PPHA values that will show obvious multi-cycle ringing, like fringes on both L and R sides of those central lines. Write down what values seem to yield the clearest lines. Go over them again and confirm it. (If two adjacent values appear alike, the true value is actually between them, and you can't get there! Pay more attention to one of the others.) The best setting for PPHA is one that is obviously cleaner than the value on either side. So if 4 is messy, 5 is messy, 6 is razor-sharp, and 7 is messy again, 6 is a sweet spot.


Set PPHA to the best sweet spot above. It would be preferable if this were a value near the middle of the range, as each deviation from 7 shifts the picture a little bit. But if it's 2 or 13, _c'est la vie!_ Pick the best one, and WRITE. We'll call that value .


(6) You're almost done! Now you have to make sure nothing changes when you go to watch SDTV or DVD from different sources. Switch to each of your available 480i sources, such as analog cable or antenna, VCR on S-video, etc. Check out the value of #14, AFCG; it may have changed to 1. If so, change it to 0, and WRITE. Also copy the settings for SHAP-SHF0-PREO, SSMD, and PPHA (1-3-1 2 ) to the other inputs, too. There are a total of five locations for storing most of these parameters: RF, CV/YC, V5/V6, HDMI, and ATSC/QAM. So try out *all* of your 480i sources, and make sure those settings above are plugged in and written.


(7) That's it! You should expect an improved clarity in SD and DVD sources. Live with it for a few days, and let me know what you think with some feedback.


NOTE: _This matter of warmup plus a restart is important._ The 2103 chip behaves very differently (a) when cold; (b) when warmed up; and (c) warmed up and restarted. If you warm up the set without restarting and survey the values for PPHA as in (5) above, you will find the "sweet spots" to be in entirely different places! (If you restart before warmup is complete, the restart has no effect.) You could, in fact, tune the set for warmed-up plus NO restart. But as soon as you turned the set off then on again, you would lose those optimum settings. I recommend working with a warmed-up and restarted set. If you are watching 480i video critically, just make a habit of restarting after 20-30 minutes. This whole warmup thing does NOT affect HD or 480p sources AFAIK. One could turn on the TV for an HD show and enjoy it immediately. But if you then wanted to watch a movie on DVD/480i, I would restart.


----------



## KenTech

*A New Approach to SYSM=3 Image Processing*

[Minor revision. See description *here* ]


Several of us have expressed frustration while trying to optimize Sharpness settings with SYSM set to 3. With SYSM=2, it has seemed easy. But SYSM=3, while appearing smoother, also gives rise to coarse oversharpening or overshoot while not handling fine textures properly. Can it be improved?


Indulge me here in some audio graphic-equalizer and frequency analogies. Think of fine detail as high frequencies, higher => finer detail. Overshoot or ringing that's fairly coarse can be simulated by raising the mid-treble without raising anything else, boosting a *narrow range* of high frequencies in a hump, but not the highest frequencies a bump in the frequency response, as it were.


SYSM=2 appears to configure the Sharpness slider so that it boosts high frequencies in an upward-sloping ramp: the higher the frequency (finer the detail), the more boost. This looks natural on-screen when tuned just right and tends to counteract natural losses in the video chain, since they tend to be manifest as a ramp-downward in the high frequencies. So far, so good.


But what is so different about SYSM=3? Looking at it intuitively, it appears to me like SYSM=3 configures the Sharpness slider to boost detail starting in, say, the mid-treble (think audio), but does so as a *plateau*: extreme highs (finest textures) are boosted along with mid-highs (mid-detail), but no more than mid-highs like a ramped-step up instead of a sloping ramp that goes up forever. Doesn't look natural.


What might improve this? Enter the interesting high-frequency filters in MID5, *MHLY* and *MHLC*. When you first put up a resolution test pattern and vary MHLY from 0 (off) thru 3 (max), it seems just to attenuate detail, like turning down the treble control except for MHLY=2. Think of that graphic equalizer again. Beginning at, say, 2000 the frequency response begins to slope downward, but it *levels out* at 8000 instead of continuing to slope downward forever. MHLY=2 does not seem to be the same-shaped filter as 1 and 3: it's much milder and seems not to trash the finest textures. (MHLC appears to do the same for color.) Well, well . . . Does this sound like the opposite of SYSM=3 or what? What if they complement each other somehow?


(Yes this is how my mind works! Blame it on an early interest in Science, niggling detail, and exposure to all those lab chemicals and lead solder.)


Here are some suggestions for 2170P-3 and MID5 settings that have resulted in less ringing and overshoot than anything I have yet found, and yet super-fine detail is preserved! Use my chart posted *here* to make sense of the following settings listings. I am listing only setting-columns for 2170P-3 and MID5, and your VM setting doesn't matter here. Typically I have Sharpness set to 30-ish. The "0-3-0-8" group are my favorite VM-shaping settings these days.

Typical HD Broadcast @ 1080i for SYSM=2.


2170P-3: 2n0-3-0-80-1-3-00-1-0x-y-z61 where n,x,y,z = original settings peculiar to my TV.


MID5: 610-0-0-00-3-2-00-3-2-00-0-00-0-0


I then set up a different picture mode identical to the above, with a few differences:


2170P-3: *3*n0-3-0-8*3*-1-3-00-1-0x-y-z*40* where 40 is a new MID5 column for this purpose.


MID5: *40**2*-*2*-0-00-3-*3*-00-3-*3*-00-0-00-0-0 (Also try 0-3-4-0 for the 2nd and 3rd groups.)


Tested this on the winter Olympics (indoor venues) with stunning results. Photo-like fine details without oversharpening! Gorgeous! I switched among this, the usual SYSM=2 settings, and the more enhanced 0-3-4-0 also suggested above. On slightly softer HD material, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend 0-3-4-0 in MID5 for the 0-3-3-0 groups. Further watching over the last two weeks has confirmed that these are really good settings, too.


I also tried this technique on ordinary SD material, tested with impeccably broadcast evening news on local stations.

Typical SD 480i settings for SYSM=2:


2170P-3: 2n0-3-0-80-1-3-30-1-0x-y-z55


MID5: 550-0-0-00-3-1-10-3-1-10-0-00-0-0


For the test mode I then set up these values:


2170P-3: *3*n0-3-0-8*3*-1-3-30-1-0x-y-z*34*


MID5: *34**2*-*2*-0-00-3-*2*-10-3-*2*-10-*3*-00-0-0


I also set up a stronger sharpness enhancement with 0-3-3-1 replacing the 0-3-2-1 in the MID5 settings. (Yes, I have set up two of the picture modes (Pro and Vivid) strictly for testing. I use Standard for SYSM=2 settings and Movie for lower Gamma. But that's another discussion. None of Sony's original picture-mode settings have been retained.)


This has transformed my appreciation of SD programming. When the broadcast is good, there is less grunge and greater clarity with fine, photo-like detail (as good as can be had from SD), especially with the 2103-1 tuning outlined in a recent previous article. When switching back to my SYSM=2 mode, I see a different kind of sharpness, just a bit more scratchy, a bit less attractive, a bit less three-dimensional. And with a bit more overshoot.


There is a systematic method to these new settings you can apply to whatever you already have set up for yourself. Here are the rules I'm following, applied to both 2170P-3 and MID5:


I'm taking my favorite settings for any one particular video mode, say DVD over V5 or HD-720p, you name it; and I am:


(1) Changing SYSM=2 to SYSM=3.


(2) Raising 2170P-3/SHOF from 0 to 3 to compensate for the Sharpness slider differences required.


(3) In MID5, changing both MHLY and MHLC from 0 to 2.


(4) In MID5, adding one or two ticks to the sharpness parameters MHYE and MHCE. In the case of SD material, I am adding a *tiny* bit of vertical sharpening by changing MVYL from 0 to 3 while leaving MYVE at 0.


I'd be grateful for any feedback.


NOTES:


(1) Many thanks to *Nitewatchman* for PM'ing back and forth with me to help me understand I wasn't hallucinating these improvements. They may be subtle, but they're not imaginary! He also helped check out the method for tuning the 2103 settings in the previous article.


(2) I have now taken over MID5 columns 30-63. I see no more need to preserve Sony's original settings, as they have been superseded in every instance by my own. For that matter, 0-29 aren't sacred, either. If any column ever has to be restored, the SM charts have all of the default values.


(3) In the above examples, the MIDE/MID5 values can be anything, as long as they agree. Use whatever column(s) you have already configured, or a new one, it doesn't matter. For example, in my scheme MID5 column 34 is now permanently set as indicated, and that's what I show here as an example. But you could use any column, not necessarily 34. Same with 55, 40, etc.


(4) These experiments are not casting any settings in stone but pointing in a certain direction, and I sure like the results. Some further refinements may be necessary. I'm hoping there are folks out there who have tried out some of the settings we've suggested before, working with the IP chart, who will try these, too.


----------



## Tommy Tweaker

Wow, KenTech you are the MAN! You should be calling _yourself_ Tommy Tweaker.


I may not get to it for a couple of days, but I will most likely give your new stuff a try. I don't have AVIA, however, only DVE. I have been using your previously posted settings with the exception of using SYSM at 3 instead of your (then) recommended 2. It sure has made my laserdiscs look good, provided I crank up the Reality portion of the DRC, although I leave the Clarity set at 0 as it seems to just soften the image. And, DVDs at 480p are great, but apparently they could be better. I am kind of worn out from resetting everything lately, but I will check out these new finds. Thank you for your never ending search for the Ultimate Picture.


By the by, have you done any research on Digital Reality Creation and how best to implement it?


----------



## JBlix51




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mapson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If it only is on top then what comes to mind is it "may" be 2170D-3 4 TBLK but I think there are others that affect that condition as well. On the other hand, there should be a black border all around the screen and that is normal. You can tell easily with the tv off.



It's not the black border. The 2170D-3 4 TBLK DID let the image use up that unused half inch space but not regular. The part that had no image now looks like this


\\imageimageimageim/ Also the image in here is not full, it has a lot of black lines going through this half inch space, I wish I could take a picture to describe what I'm seeing better.



Edit: Ok I messed around with the options in 2170d-3 VDJP and it straitned out the half inch at the top and also took away the black lines so now I can see the full HUD on GRAW.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tommy Tweaker* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> By the by, have you done any research on Digital Reality Creation and how best to implement it?



I would if I could, but I have the 36XS955, and DRC is fixed, not variable. There is no DRC palette, just the ability to switch among Interlaced, Progressive, and CineMotion.


----------



## JeffD2.

Below is a color bar pattern from my 36HS510 (4x3 set). I'm not sure where to start for fixing this. Is this focus, convergence? Please don't judge geometry or color accuracy by this image as it was shot from a tripod mounted camera and cropped for posting. It is only to show the colors bleeding into each other. I have placed arrows next to some of the most offending edges.









Only in recent weeks have I started SM tweaking, so I'm still a bit of a noob. As always, thanks for any helpful advice.










Jeff


EDIT- In the user menu, I subsequently tried adjusting picture, brightness, sharpness, hue, clear-edge to off with no improvement. HOWEVER when I reduced the color significantly, the edges cleaned up nice, but of course the color rendition was horrible.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JeffD2.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not sure where to start for fixing this. Is this focus, convergence?



This is what a 480i color-bar pattern can look like even when convergence and focus are perfect. The processing of color in analog NTSC television causes some colors to be delayed slightly relative to others when pure bars are displayed, and so there are some slight overlaps and gaps, as you can see. This is not nearly so noticable when viewing actual program material. There are no adjustments that will solve this problem, and fussing with color resolution in service mode will just make some other matters worse.


The only patterns you should be looking at to judge convergence are fine crosshatched lines or dot-grids. That sure shows up color-convergence issues and will certainly alert you to how far from perfect your picture geometry really is. (The latter shouldn't scare you; a test pattern can look pretty awful and still regular TV looks just fine, except for a few graphic boxes or fine lines. No CRT-TV has perfect geometry. Certain games, however . . .


There are patterns specifically for judging/adjusting focus. They're generally fine-line black/white patterns that repeat over all the screen so you can see how fine the CRT's scanning dot is and adjust it if necessary. Color bars won't help you judge focus at all!


If you wish to try it, there are color bars that can be generated in service mode for both HD 1080i and 720p, plus 480i, and 480p. Bars that appear less than perfect in 480i are razor-sharp in HD because of the different processing.


----------



## DeepFreezed




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I believe MID3 is specifically for the HD inputs and resolutions... 480p, 720p, 1080i.
> 
> 
> I have not touched MID1 or MID2, which I believe are specifically for 480i or other SD resolutions or inputs.
> 
> 
> I may be wrong in my understanding, but I only adjusted MID3 and have perfectly acceptable 16:9 presentation with about 1 1/2% overscan on INPUT5 and INPUT6. My 4:3 presentation on INPUT1 and INPUT3 also looks perfect (without any special adjustment), so maybe there's some "overlap" in effect from MID3 (or not).



I made overscan adjustment like you mentioned in the thread. My set was at 5% when I started and now it's down to 2%. One thing I notice was the adjustments seem to be global. I did my overscan adjustment on 1080i but that fixed overscan for all inputs and etc...


----------



## DeepFreezed




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JeffD2.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Below is a color bar pattern from my 36HS510 (4x3 set). I'm not sure where to start for fixing this. Is this focus, convergence? Please don't judge geometry or color accuracy by this image as it was shot from a tripod mounted camera and cropped for posting. It is only to show the colors bleeding into each other. I have placed arrows next to some of the most offending edges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only in recent weeks have I started SM tweaking, so I'm still a bit of a noob. As always, thanks for any helpful advice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> EDIT- In the user menu, I subsequently tried adjusting picture, brightness, sharpness, hue, clear-edge to off with no improvement. HOWEVER when I reduced the color significantly, the edges cleaned up nice, but of course the color rendition was horrible.



I maybe wrong here but you maybe able to fix that tilt by adjusting VANG and LANG on 2170D-2. give it a try.


----------



## notrust

Great thread. Five stars. There's more than enough info here to write a book on Sony calibration. Oh, and I also have a quick question.


QUESTION: Anyone here know of a service mode setting that will make closed captioning come on when the volume is muted? Even cheap TV's do this.


They seem to have every other possible setting tucked away in there, so why not this one?


----------



## JeffD2.

Kentech,


Thanks. The focus patterns on DVE are razor sharp across the screen.


Thanks to you and this thread, my geometry is damn near peferect. Though I'm a wee bit concerned that I had to change VCEN to zero to acheive it (originally set at 8).


On convergence pattern (DVE, title 12, chap 20) I see a slight ingress of green and blue on the center portion of the uppermost line of the grid, but otherwise just clean sharp white throughout.


An interesting experiment for tonight will be to run color bars at 1080i on upconverting DVD player and see what happens. Otherwise I'll no longer be concerned about having sharp color bars.


I'll echo what others have already said THANKS KENTECH!


Deepfreeze- That image was just to show the edges bleeding, but thanks for tip.


----------



## Tarheel72

I have an issue with the flicker problem on a KP53XBR300. I understand that you can do a work around by entering the service mode and changing the Video 5 lock to 1080i. However, I have been unable to locate the codes for entering the service menu to do this. Can anyone supply these and comment on making this change if you have experrience? thank you.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd be grateful for any feedback.



I've been working on evaluating in which cases I may like the new "tuned for" SYSM=3 settings(using MHLY=2/etc) "better" than our "tuned for" SYSM=2 settings. Since for the most part, as you say - the differences are very subtle(even or especially so with the use of test patterns such as AVIA TVL resolution patterns) it is making this task a bit difficult to accomplish and even more difficult to write about ....


At this point, the one thing I am fairly sure about is : I seem to prefer the new settings for SYSM=3 for 1080i from internal ATSC receiver and MS. Not only is there less ringing or overshoot, I'd say it looks like an improvement concerning fine detail as well. I also seem to be preferring the "EQ"(along the lines of your audio/graphic equalizer analogy) for 1080i concerning those "mid-treble" frequencies. That's true for HD and some high-quality images from MS scanned with 35mm film negative scanner, I'm not so sure yet about the varying quality of upconverted material from local stations.


I haven't given up on 720p+SYSM=3 yet, but at this point it also seems like I'm getting a clear "preference" for the old "tuned for" SYSM=2 settings with 720p. Unlike is the case with 1080i, It almost seems like MHLY=2 is causing a bit of a "blurring" effect with 720p that I can't seem to compensate for with MHYE/MHCE/etc, and I may also like the "EQ" a little better with SYSM=2. I've even tried it with a bit of Vertial EE with MVYL=3, and even some short experiments with 2170P-3 controls such as F1LV/LTLV ...


Everything else is "in between" for me, and it seems more difficult to decide on a clear preference ... For instance, At this point, much of the time I may be leaning towards SYSM=3 for 480p V5/V6, SD NTSC(RF or CV/YC), and for 480i ATSC for the reduced overshoot and ringing and more "3d-like" look. And, there are times I like the "EQ" better for those as well with the new, tuned for SYSM=3 settings. But, there are also times I like the "EQ" better for those with SYSM=2, perhaps especially for SD NTSC via RF input(OTA in my case) ... At times, it just seems a bit more "natural" looking with SYSM=2 even though the difference is very slight ...


Except perhaps for 1080i and SYSM=3, and perhaps 720p and SYSM=2 --- At this point, I'm thinking the question of which is better in any given case may end up boiling down to a matter of preference for me. If I can ever figure out what that preference is, I think it's going to take quite a bit of time spent "evaluating"/making comparisions between the two along with a little fine tuning of MHYE/etc in some cases to have any luck concerning making decisions on anything other than 1080i and 720p .....


Also at this point, except perhaps for 1080i, no matter what I decide it looks like I'm probably going to want to allways have a pic mode set up with the "Old" SYSM=2 settings for all inputs/scan rates ....


BTW --- given the descriptions in the XBR2 manual for MID5/MHLY, MHLC, MVLY, MVLC (LPF coefficient for "Y"(I assume luminance) or "C"(I assume chrominance), respectively) : I've also played around with MHLC/MVLY/MVLC a little as well with 720p HD to see if I could further "fine tune"/improve the "EQ" of those "mid-treble" frequencies a bit. While it looks like that "somewhat" may be the case in a very, very subtle way -- anything other than "0" for those(except MHLY=2) seems to be "too much" and involve "attenuation" of fine detail or add'l blurring effect, which we don't want ... I've only looked at it with 720p so far however ... I think It may also be somewhat interesting that for the "factory" defaults(from XBR960 servicecode listing, or from XBR2 Service Manual) for MID5 columns, although MHLY values of "1" or "3" are occasionally used -- they NEVER use MHLY=2, which seems to be turning out the be the value(other than 0) that's most useful -- for SYSM=3 at least ... go figure ....



> Quote:
> I'm hoping there are folks out there who have tried out some of the settings we've suggested before, working with the IP chart, who will try these, too.



So do I... What may surprise folks is just how similar the results are to our "tuned for SYSM=2" settings - What happens with SYSM=3 using MHLY=2 certianly surprised me!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since for the most part, as you say - the differences are very subtle(even or especially so with the use of test patterns such as AVIA TVL resolution patterns) it is making this task a bit difficult to accomplish and even more difficult to write about.



I'm totally sympathetic. I have to say that I have used test patterns to examine the effects of these filters and deduce their qualities in engineering terms. But those patterns may be *useless* for determining what really "looks right." For me, the breakthrough is SD analog cable: The new SYSM=3 settings plus the "tuning" I did of the 2103 processor made huge differences, and there's no going back! I didn't draw this conclusion from test patterns, but from everyday viewing of my favorite "stuff." I think the factors involved in accurate video reproduction are more complex than what can be easily deduced from test patterns. Real, high-quality programming sources confirm in fairly short order if you're on the right track or not.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Ken,


I'm probably just second guessing some of my original choices with this. As, after several evenings of viewing thought I had pretty much decided I preferred the "new" settings for SYSM=3 just about everywhere ... The main exception perhaps being 720p ...


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

From all I have read and learned about "tweaking" in these forums it was always apparent to me that the raster settings on these Sony models (2107D-1, 2107D-2) were global settings. However I just stumbled onto the fact that the 2107D-2 HSIZ and HPOZ can be set differently between video modes (i.e 480p, 720p, 1080i). I have the Sony 30HS420, and I was just wondering if anyway else was aware of this? As far as I can tell the VSIZ and VPOZ are global and can't be different between video modes, but I could be wrong about that. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> From all I have read and learned about "tweaking" in these forums it was always apparent to me that the raster settings on these Sony models (2107D-1, 2107D-2) were global settings. However I just stumbled onto the fact that the 2107D-2 HSIZ and HPOZ can be set differently between video modes (i.e 480p, 720p, 1080i). I have the Sony 30HS420, and I was just wondering if anyway else was aware of this? As far as I can tell the VSIZ and VPOZ are global and can't be different between video modes, but I could be wrong about that. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.



That might be the reason that there is no MID3 settings on the 420.


----------



## Napoleon D

What exactly are MIDE settings adding to the image? For ONLY 480P material (what i mostly watch), I have SYSM=2, with VM turned off, sharpness leveled off, and most especially, MIDES set to zero. The last remaining sharpness setting in the SM i have is a SHAP-6 setting. Anything lower than that makes the image a touch too too soft. Still the image is plenty sharp.


I notice that adding MIDES to SYSM=2 make the image less film-like, as you are seeing more edging and layering to objects on screen. It can even create a very obvious 3-D effect when it is set a certain way. In this case, your eyes may have trouble following the material onscreen because they are constantly having to make a choice of what layer to focus on. From all i've observed, this is wrong for film. The only 3-D effect should be coming from the source material, not from some kind of layering the display adds to the image.


Maybe i'm just confused about the function of the MIDE column. It's funny, but on SYSM-2, when using a sharpness pattern, when you toggle between MIDE columns=0 and a minimum MIDE-column setting, the sharpness pattern respecitvely improves. Does this make sense? Although when i strip the image of MIDES, the image clears us much more. It looks far more film-like, and looks far more natural. Without the MIDES it looks like you are looking through a window to a clear and natural image, as opposed to having things artificially jump out at you. The former is what resembles film more.


From all that I have seen, MIDE only seems appropriate to SYSM-3. For me, it seems that setting SYSM-3 introduces far more variable into the equation, most especially VM's (which i personally detest). SYSM-2 seems to require a lot less running around and balancing things.


Someone like Ken would know more about this than i ever would, as his testing has shown. I only am giving you my own observations of what the images look like.


Does anyone want to comment on this?


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That might be the reason that there is no MID3 settings on the 420.



That's what I'm starting to wonder too, I know that the HSIZ and HPOZ can have different values but the VPOZ and VSIZ seem to have to remain the same. As I look at my notes from the default values for the different video modes (480, 720, 1080) none of them are the same, so maybe there is a way to have different VSIZ and VPOZ in different video modes. I'll have to do some more testing to try and figure out, but even with the ability to change the HSIZ and HPOZ for different modes does not mean the MID2 settings still don't need to be tweaked (on my TV anyway, I have to use MID2 cause there are no MID3 settings, which you touched upon above). Right now all my notes on values are kinda cluttered on mulitple sheets of paper (which is not like me at all) so I'm gonna have to organize that and maybe help learn a little more.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's what I'm starting to wonder too, I know that the HSIZ and HPOZ can have different values but the VPOZ and VSIZ seem to have to remain the same. As I look at my notes from the default values for the different video modes (480, 720, 1080) none of them are the same, so maybe there is a way to have different VSIZ and VPOZ in different video modes. I'll have to do some more testing to try and figure out, but even with the ability to change the HSIZ and HPOZ for different modes does not mean the MID2 settings still don't need to be tweaked (on my TV anyway, I have to use MID2 cause there are no MID3 settings, which you touched upon above). Right now all my notes on values are kinda cluttered on mulitple sheets of paper (which is not like me at all) so I'm gonna have to organize that and maybe help learn a little more.



In my service menu for the 34XBR960 I cannot have different HSIZ and HPOZ for different video modes and inputs, so I cannot really speculate. As I have already stated earlier most 2170D-1 and 2 codes are universal, MID2 is for 480i and MID3 are for the rest.


I would try to get an updated service manual for your TV. Somewhere in this thread there is an 800 number where you can order the service manuals.


As always - take baby steps an document them.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Sorry about the length of below, but hopefully some of it is useful in some way ...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> and most especially, MIDES set to zero..... ... , when you toggle between MIDE columns=0 and a minimum MIDE-column setting, the sharpness pattern respecitvely improves. ..... Maybe i'm just confused about the function of the MIDE column ....



I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here, which is why I'm not sure if you understand how P2170-3/ MIDE and MID5 table/Columns/controls "work" ....


If you set 2170P-3/MIDE to "0" for 480p V5/V6(component input), for instance, that is "assigning" MID5 Column "0" to be used with 480p scan rate from component input. If you haven't changed all the values to "0" for all the controls in MID5 Column "0", setting MIDE=0 certainly does not equate to NO MID5 processing, but setting MIDE=63 (a MID5 "all zeros" column -- assuming factory values) does, effectively "turn off" all MID5 processing ....


On XBR960 for instance, MID5 Column "0" is set up for the factory pro defaults as assigned for "RF" input(which is also set for "SYSM=1" from the factory, btw), With 2(low pass filters) of the 17 MID5 controls set to values other than "Zero" ---- MHLY is set to "1", and MHLC set to "3" Yuck, IMO ! -- But, using MHLY=2(even if all the other MID5 paramenters are set to "0") when using SYSM=3(also use P2170-3/SHOF=3 for "mid range" sharpness slider settings) is a whole "different" ball of wax, so to speak!


Given the "factory" settings on XBR960 -- MID5 Column #63 is one MID5 column that has nothing but "zeros" in it, so if you want to "turn off" processing from MID5, use a value of MIDE=63 for the scan rate/input/etc. you're using ..... In this particular case, MIDE=63 should be "sharper" than MIDE=0. ......


here's another hopefully useful(probably more understandable than the above) explanation from Ken Tech :


From Section #2 Of Ken Tech Article #10 - "Presets" and related Service Codes :



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (2) 2170P-3 #16, MIDE points to a column in the immense MID5 table, which has 18 unique codes (rows) and 64 columns. MID5 #0, POP is a temporary pointer to any particular column in this table, so you can make changes without schlepping back and forth between 2170P-3 and MID5. Example: If you wanted to make changes in the settings for MIDE = 21, you can go to the MID5 #0, POP, and set it to 21. Then you are in column 21, and you can step thru the codes, make changes, and write them. Now any time you set MIDE in the 2170P-3 tables to 21, those settings you just made will take effect. (Of course, more than one column in the 2170P-3 tables can have MIDE = 21, and it will be the *same* 21.)



Here, in Post 88 Ken responded to question from Jsperm :



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jsperm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 3) Is it that for each combination (eg video 6, 480 p, Movie) for MIDE, the number in the appropriate column points to the column of settings in MID5 that are used for that set of 17 values (the MID5 parameters?). . . . Am I getting this right?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yep. You have it exactly right. "Getting" this is a requirement for intelligent image tweaking, as I described in Article #12.



---------------------------------



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What exactly are MIDE settings adding to the image?



Rather than providing descriptions of the "useful"(IMO) MID5 controls here -- I think the answer to your question is mostly available in the descriptions of the Image processing controls(including MID5 controls) Ken provided in "IPChart06all.pdf" chart which is attached to Post #1039 


Also be sure to check out the updated info on MID5/MHLY and SYSM=3 in Ken's Post 1138 .


Also, If you haven't already done so, I'd recommended digging up the service code chart PDF for your set and downloading it/printing it out so you can more clearly see how "scan rate or input specific" SM settings work. And, in the case of P2170-3/MIDE and MID5 columns, to perhaps get a clearer idea of how those settings "relate" to one another ... I don't recall which set you are using, but the servicecode chart for XS955+XBR960 is attached as/labeled as XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf, here at Post 715 


I would also recommend thinking about "customizing" one or more of your pic modes other than "pro", so otherwise your "customized pic mode" is the same as "pro" -- This makes it possible to easily make "side by side" comparisions of different image processing settings set up in different pic mode. See KenTech's Article #5 - Customizing Picture Modes for info on how to do this.


For even more background+info concerning image processing settings, including info on MID5 table controls and what they do --- You might also want to read through some of Ken Tech's previous articles on "Image processing". Such as :


#1). Ken's Article #12 - Optimizing Image Decoding, Shaping, and Enhancement" . Note that the "meat" of the article is contained in the PDF file attached to that post.


#2) post #707 (tuned for SYSM=2 values). Note : well, looks like Post 707 is actually post 706, now, as someone must have deleted an earlier post ... LOL ....


Just keep in mind, some earlier "discoveries" (such as Ken Tech's article #12) have been improved upon in later articles, so some of the settings or info described in earlier articles are not allways necessarily the "currently" relevant info on those thesttings, although I think there is still much useful info to be found in those earlier articles/posts for those who haven't been "following along" and trying these settings out ....


Utilizing info in links I provided above, I think you may be able to gain a better understanding of the image processing which is occuring, the controls that can be used to improve and "fine tune" image processing and EE, and, perhaps a better understanding concerning how to go about "tweaking" for improvments to get what you want - Including the MID5 controls, some of which I think can be quite useful. I believe there are also a few other posts earlier in this thread which may be benefical to you in this regard as well, but I don't have time currently to dig up their URL's ....



> Quote:
> From all that I have seen, MIDE only seems appropriate to SYSM-3.



I disagree, and I just don't see how that can be the case. Various settings available in P2170P-3, MID5, and 2103-1(the latter only in the case of SD that passes throgh 2103cxa chip) -- are all *relevant* and approriate for image processing no matter which value of SYSM you are using .... And, how those settings(besides MID5 table settings) are set in your case for any given input/scan rate are *relevant*, important factors here as well.


In the interest of not making this post overly "long" -- I won't address 2103-1 settings, or the 2170P-3 VM settings here : Otherwise --- Specifically for 2170P-3, in additon to SYSM this would involve - SHOF, SHFO, PROV, F1LV, LTLV, LTMD, CTLV. VM settings can pretty much be thought of "seperately", and for now, let's just assume you have VM "off". Mostly Per Ken Tech's recommendations, along with what I "like" from these settings with my own evaluations/testing, I have these set (for all inputs/scan rates, and for my "customized" Vivid/Standard/Movie Pic modes - I've left "pro" at it's defaults for now) at :


SHOF = "0" for SYSM=2, "3" for SYSM=3

SHFO = 1

PROV = 3

F1LV = 0

LTLV = 0

LTMD = 1

CTLV = 0


If you've got something different from the above -- especially perhaps LTLV or LTMD -- then, certianly we are going to see something quite "different", even if we are both using a MID5 Column with all its controls set to "0".


That doesn't necessarily mean, for instance you'd want to "change" the value of P2170-3/SHF0 because of a different value for SYSM is being used, only that the setting used for SHF0 is a relevant and "approrpriate" setting that is involved, no matter what value is used for SYSM .... For SYSM=3, You *will* however want to have 2170P-3/SHOF to "3" for midrange "sharpness slider" setting, and for SYSM=2, SHOF=0 for mid range sharpness slider setting ....


Now, that being said, I suppose a case could certianly be made for using an "all zeros" MID5 Column, no matter what value for SYSM is used .... that may be more a matter of preference. However :


#1). I'm likely going to want to use MID5/MHLY=2, and 2170P-3 SHOF=3 if I'm using SYSM=3, and MID5/MHLY=0, 2170P-3/SHOF=0 if I'm using SYSM=2. Apparently(from what we've discovered so far) Those are the only *siginficant* changes and balancing that need to occur for SYSM=2 vs. SYSM=3. Additional, but VERY subtle "fine tuning" of MID5 columns for SYSM=3 instead of using SYSM=2 are useful, but it's a VERY subtle thing --- for SYSM=3 MHYE/MHCE +1 or +2 from the SYSM=2 settings, and in some cases(For SD, Not DVD) with SYSM=3 use of slight vertical EE via MVYL=3 seems to work well.


Try this : Using SYSM=3, SHOF=3, and sharpness slider at "31" -- With 480p from DVD, Check it out starting with a MID5 column with all zeros. Such as factory defaults for column #63 -- use 2170P-3/MIDE=#63 which assigns MID5 column #63 to 480p. Except, change MID5 Column #63's MID5/MHLY to "2". Then, compare that with MID5/MHLY=0, by changing MID5 Column #63's MHLY back to "0" --- which makes it "all zeros" again, and turns MID5 processing off. Switch between MID5/MHLY=0 vs MID5/MHLY=2 -- put up AVIA Sharpness pattern and especially look at what happens with the horizontal sweep portion of the pattern when you change MHLY between 0 and 2 ... Now, compare SYSM=3/SHOF=3/MHLY=2 to SYSM=2, using SHOF=0, MHLY=0 and sharpness slider=31 .... Do the same thing, but with *real* program material ..... Any differences you might see should be quite subtle ... Also, don't forget that how you have other settings in P2170-3 are also "relevant" to some extent here - such as PROV, F1LV, LTMD, SHFO/etc ...


# 2) I personally prefer to "fine tune" the MID5 columns a bit for "fine detail" in a subtle way, and that is as true with SYSM=2 as it is SYSM=3. What I mean by "fine tuning" involves different MID5 columns set up and "assigned" via 2170P-3 MIDE for different scan rates/inputs --- and, as is explained in KenTech's articles -- specifically "fine tuning" with the following MID5 controls(everything else in the MIDE "assigned" MID5 columns are set to "0", except for MHLY=2 if I'm using SYSM=3) : MHYL/MHYE, MHCL/MHCE. For SD(but not DVD) in some cases something a little less subtle using MHYO/MHCO, and also in some cases(480p DVD and in some cases also with SYSM=3 for SD) a little vertical EE via MVYL=3.



> Quote:
> For me, it seems that setting SYSM-3 introduces far more variable into the equation, most especially VM's (which i personally detest). SYSM-2 seems to require a lot less running around and balancing things.



For the most part I disagree. You can't just look at either SYSM=2, or SYSM=3 "on it's own" when looking at the overall effect on the picture, IMO. You have to take all the other settings into account which effect, or can "control" various factors involving image processing/EE or "sharpness" as well ....... Now, from what I've seen I do think it may be a bit more difficult to "fine tune" MID5 controls such as MHYE/MHCE for SYSM=3 for best results with any given scan rate/input than is the case with SYSM=2. Otherwise, I think the "running around" and balancing things is just as important for SYSM=2 as it is for SYSM=3 in my experience ....


As for VM, I've found subtly "configuring" the VM parameters per Ken Tech's recommendations to be quite benefical. You might be surprised at just how "subtle", and "minimal" VM IS with P2170-3 VM settings of VML=2(for "clearedge VM=LOW" in User menu), and VMCR~VMDL = 0-3-0-6, or say, 0-3-0-8 actually are compared to VM=OFF .... It's a far cry from the "factory" setup, and, I'd certianly want VM "off" if the factory VM settings were my only other choice ...



> Quote:
> The last remaining sharpness setting in the SM i have is a SHAP-6 setting. Anything lower than that makes the image a touch too too soft. Still the image is plenty sharp.



Keep in mind, 2103-1/SHAP does not effect 480p, 720p or 1080i -- those signal paths don't use the 2103cxa chip. It does effect SD that uses the DRC processing -There are seperate columns for SHAP, allowing for different settings for RF(NTSC SD) CV/YC(NTSC SD), V5/V6(480i, such as from DVD), HDMI(480i), and ATSC(480i digital from internal ATSC/QAM tuner).


In my case, 2103-1/SHAP=6 certianly seems WAY High for my set, I wouldn't use anything higher than SHAP="1" --- Ok, I've thought of wanting to use "2" occasionally - but rarely. Anything above "1" is just too much and is too "scratchy" looking, IMO. The exception being for my Right Twin-view window via 2103-2/SHAP, which I have set to "4"(RF) or "5"(CV/YC) as for some reason, the right twinview window is "blurrier" than the left, which is controlled(where applicable for SD) by the 2103-1 settings. My best guess would be, perhaps it involves something different going on with the 2nd tuner's alignment at the factory, or different signal paths used for the 2nd NTSC tuner/rerouting CV/YC through it/etc ...


The appropriate MID5 column settings can be tuned for "better", and much more "subtle" and pleasing results than using "SHAP=6" for any given "SD" input/scan rate/etc, IMO. Also, I'd recommend checking out Post 1137 for excellent info on "tuning" the approrpriate 2103-1 controls for excellent results with SD/480i from NTSC, 480i DVD or 480i ATSC ... Just keep in mind, You'll also still need "appropriate" values set up for various 2170P-3 controls/MID5 parameters/columns ...


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In my service menu for the 34XBR960 I cannot have different HSIZ and HPOZ for different video modes and inputs, so I cannot really speculate. As I have already stated earlier most 2170D-1 and 2 codes are universal, MID2 is for 480i and MID3 are for the rest.
> 
> 
> I would try to get an updated service manual for your TV. Somewhere in this thread there is an 800 number where you can order the service manuals.
> 
> 
> As always - take baby steps an document them.



I think I was mistaken earlier, I believe that only the HPOZ can be different. I really do need to get a newer version of the manual, I think that I'm trying to change the wrong things for the wrong video modes (I do document everything though). I need to figure out which settings for the 30HS420 control the 480, 720, and 1080 pictures modes cause I think I'm not doing something right.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe i'm just confused about the function of the MIDE column. It's funny, but on SYSM-2, when using a sharpness pattern, when you toggle between MIDE columns=0 and a minimum MIDE-column setting, the sharpness pattern respecitvely improves. Does this make sense?



The value of MIDE in 2170P-3 _has no inherent importance whatsoever._ It simply points to more video-filter parameters. Thus a MIDE value of 0 meanins nothing in itself; 0 is not "off," and 1 isn't stronger than 0, and 2 is not stronger than 1, etc. It simply points to column #0 in the MID5 table. When you tinker with MIDE, you are just switching columns in the MID5 table, and some appear sharper, some softer, some really gross, etc.


You might read *this* .


Further, the chart available *here* has relatively detailed explanations.


Simply put, a column in the MID5 table, pointed to by the MIDE value in 2170P-3, continues the series of filters, enhancements, and signal shapers. The ones in MID5 are unique, in that they affect much finer detail than any others, they can be invoked for *any* video mode or input, they are orderly and predictable in their effects, and they are independent of any user-menu settings. Think of the MID5 table as offering a type of a adjustable frequency/sharpness equalizer for all video, with 64 possible preset combinations of 18 different parameter settings.


The reason why the MID5 table exists at all is so these equalization settings can be set up carefully for specific video types, and then *re-used* for different situations in 2170P-3. I.e. several different columns in the 2170P-3 table can point to the *same* column on MID5, if that's what works best. Sony's use of it is sort of chaotic, as many MID5 columns are exactly the same, and they seemingly have blocked out portions of the table for specific video/input modes. For example, cols.#20-23 are reserved for "V5/V6 1080i," one for each picture mode. An abundance of columns (memory positions) means Sony can assign a group of them to practically any possible video that comes into the TV. It's an organizational thing.


Some of us who have researched what these parameters do have tried an alternate means of organizing these columns: into *functional* groups with columns arranged hierarchically. See the chart in the second link above to see how I have initially done it. Let me say it again: The actual values of MIDE mean nothing. Any specific column in the Sony service-mode chart can be recreated any time in any position in the MID5 table, and its column number (POP value) can be plugged into MIDE in 2170-3. So it's impossible to "lose" a factory setting in MID5; they're all documented in exhaustive detail in the uploaded charts.


*********

[Later Edit: I just read Nitewatchman's detailed reply, and he's sorta said it all, too, thanks! Sorry to be redundantly redundant, but maybe if we each say it our own words . . .]


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> From all that I have seen, MIDE only seems appropriate to SYSM-3. For me, it seems that setting SYSM-3 introduces far more variable into the equation, most especially VM's (which i personally detest). SYSM-2 seems to require a lot less running around and balancing things.



It seems to me you're missing a really important point: SYSM and MIDE and VM are *all completely independent* of one another! There's no such thing as "MIDE being appropriate." It's the values in an MID5 column (pointed to by MIDE) that matter. Any MID5 column can be set to all zeroes (I use POP=63), and then plugging that into MIDE results in no MID5 processing at all. Fine. But you would be missing out on *beneficial* processing to counteract the imperfections inherent in the long video chain from the real source to your TV. That said, SYSM=2 by itself does a great job, with Sharpness settings of 20-35. However, try adding a MID5 column to it with the settings #1-12 / MHLY~MHCO of


0-0-0-0 - 0-3-2-0 - 0-3-2-0 and the rest zeroes.


The 2s can be changed to 1s for a lesser effect or to 3s for a bit more. Look at fine textures on really good 1080i HD programming.


How can you detest "VM" because you haven't specified what you mean by that? I detested Sony's original VM settings -- they were gross and artificial-looking; that's probably what *you* mean. But by using different "shaping" on the VM signal and attenuating it way down, it just nicely conpensates for several defects in normal TV video, especially with SD 480. The myth that "VM is Bad" can easily be refuted by a demonstration!


(I hate to burst this bubble, but there is *lots* of enhancement going on in Pro mode out of the box, too, contrary to what Sony claims.)


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now, that being said, I suppose a case could certianly be made for using an "all zeros" MID5 Column, no matter what value for SYSM is used.



Oh, yes! If nothing more, it is valuable as a test reference for new MID5-column settings. You can try out new MID5 settings by going to 2170P-3/MIDE (which points to your new column), and changing it to your all-zeroes column, then back, to see what your new settings do. I can't imagine testing anything without the reference standard of an all-zeroes column.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Just curious Ken, what is your SBRT setting set at?


Mines at 29 very close to sonys intended range of 31. Ive tried 31 but it's a tad too much on the smokey side and 29 seems to be the best compromise for shadow detail and black level. if not perfect!


Just curious that's all since it seems we have found similar discoveries with our settings,maybe we think alike no


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

Is there anyone here that knows how the video settings to fix overscan on the newer 30HS420s work? I think mine was manufactured in November of 05. What I mean by video settings to fix overscan is what to use to set the screen up for 480p, 720p, and 1080i. I know 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are for the raster image, but what exact settings are for the rest the setup on the newer models is rather different than the older ones. I was using the MID2 settings for 720p and 1080i, but I'm starting to think that's not the right approach (like I said the settings are rather different than the older models). Any insight whatsoever?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just curious Ken, what is your SBRT setting set at?



Let me put it into context. See the chart *here* , Section I, so you can see all of the black-level settings in one place.


2170P-1, #2/YOF = defaults as shipped


SBRT = 29


RCUT~BCUT = 43-21-24


And in 2170P-3, UBOF ranges from 3-5, depending on the input source.


But these can really vary from set to set. You have little incentive to try for 31 on SBRT; 29 is fine. However, if you were down around 15 (as my set was as-delivered), I'd recommend a, um, rebalancing of SBRT and the _CUT settings. (15! Can you say "black crush"?)


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

Here is the problem I have come across with my Sony 30HS420. I own a Xbox 360 which I spend as much free time playing as possible, for the longest time I was using the MID2 settings DHHP, DHHS, DHVP, DHVS to size my 720p and 1080i input modes. I thought all was fine until the new Ghost Recon came out, when I first turned it on the HUD was awfully overscaned to my amazement. I tinkered a little and got it to where it fit on the screen, and that was not an easy task one bit. After this I figured I had now properly configured my TV for my 360, until I put in another game and saw that the sides of the TV had black bars (in other words there was a space between the image on the screen and the edge of the screen that was not supposed to be there.). I figure that this can't be the setting for changing the image on top of the Raster, cause if it were it should have not created any black space correct? It should have filled out the rest of the screen with the image the game was presenting, am I correct in this thinking?


----------



## ragingd

I have a problem. I have the xbr910 and I have adjusted sbrt to 29 and ubof to 2 in the Service menu. My user menu setting for brightness is set at the midpoint. But the picture still seems a little to dark. I raised the ubof to 3 but it seems like the blacks get washed out.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Let me put it into context. See the chart *here* , Section I, so you can see all of the black-level settings in one place.
> 
> 
> 2170P-1, #2/YOF = defaults as shipped
> 
> 
> SBRT = 29
> 
> 
> RCUT~BCUT = 43-21-24
> 
> 
> And in 2170P-3, UBOF ranges from 3-5, depending on the input source.
> 
> 
> But these can really vary from set to set. You have little incentive to try for 31 on SBRT; 29 is fine. However, if you were down around 15 (as my set was as-delivered), I'd recommend a, um, rebalancing of SBRT and the _CUT settings. (15! Can you say "black crush"?)



Interesting, that's exactly how mine was shipped from the factory as well.Only difference with my tv is i set UBOF to 0 for all the other inputs any higher and it's smokey.


----------



## KenTech

*Minor Changes to SYSM=3 Recommendations and "Tuning" the 2103 Chip*


(1) Today I asked myself why I wouldn't want to apply the MID5/MHLY=2 modification to color as well as luminance, which would mean changing #2/MHLC from 0 to 2.


I used the internal HD color bars plus a complex pattern I have devised for memory-stick use that places a large number of strong colors in different adjacent positions. I looked carefully at the vertical boundaries between contrasting colors. It seemed to me that setting MHLC=2 increased the "cleanliness" of these transitions (which is, of course, next to godliness), eliminating some subtle bright artifacts and gaps. For HD patterns, the improvement was noticeable and will likely benefit any HD source material with strong adjacent colors. I'm going for it!


For SD material, even color bars, the change is very subtle, and I can't see any difference in good, contrasty color on both digital or analog broadcast sources. On tests from DVD, the differences on test patterns are just noticable. But I'm willing to make the change on faith for now.


The logic of this is fairly clear: setting MHLC to 2 "aligns" the equlaization of color with that of luminance, but I can't prove theoretically that that is a certain benefit. Sony themselves use all manner of color settings that are different from luminance; but those settings have always looked awful to me. So I am going to trust my eyes.


Therefore I am recommending: Both MHLY *and* MHLC should be set to 2 for MID5 columns used with SYSM=3. I have changed the text of my original article *here* to reflect these recommendations.


(2) nick2003 PM'd me that he was successful using DVE to "tune" the 2103 settings, instead of the AVIA DVD mentioned in the original article *here* . Although I think the pattern he used makes it tough to see minor changes in quality, there are two other patterns that may work just fine. I still think the AVIA Sharpness pattern is easiest to use, if you have a choice, but you can likely achieve equal success with these, both in DVE Title 13:


(a) Display the multipurpose pattern in Ch.2. At screen center is a small array of closely-spaced vertical white and black lines. Just above is the white text "50%." The PPHA "sweet spots" would be when the bars are brightest *and* the "50%" text is cleanest. The text, in particular, is very sensitive to PPHA adjustment.


(b) Display the high-frequency bursts in Ch.5, and pay attention to how bright the far-right group is. A PPHA sweet spot makes them brightest and most free of noise or flicker.


Going back and forth, these seem to correlate perfectly with what I see on the AVIA disk.


----------



## Napoleon D

Ken, thanks for the good information, and the specific settings for MIDE appropriate to what i have. I was missing the point of MIDE, which is what i thought.


The VM's i refer to are in that one column, i forget the number, but they include "VM" values. I have set those to all zero from day one. I also kept "clear-edge" on off. But that is reflective of my settings in the service menu. I have read most of your articles, and since i'm "getting smart slowly" it takes a while for me to understand how some of these codes interact - it's like trying to understand a Matrix movie. (Although your explanations are more sufficient than what the W-Brothers provide.)


You mentioned the PRE, SHFO, PPHA values have no impact on 480P material right? I mostly view 480p material, so i imagine SHAP is the only value that comes into play with 480p.


I will look again at some of your articles. My only usual trouble is dechipering which values you post compliment (or go along with) with SYSM=3, and which deal with SYSM=2. Again, i understand a lot of this has to do with my personal learning curve as well.


Thanks for all of your help Ken!


Nitewatchmen - Thanks as well for your input, i'm sure others will benefit from that too!


----------



## Tommy Tweaker

Just checking in to say that I tried your new settings, KenTech, (except for your newest one with MHLC) and they look good. I haven't set up for any A-B testing (as of yet) but I did have a friend over last night to view a couple of films. Afterward, he asked if I had been making more adjustments and I told him of your recent findings and how I had implemented them. He said it looked great to him. And that was with the sharpness control all the way off and no SVM.


And now, a grayscale calibration question: I tried this recently (and briefly, I might add) and it didn't seem to work too well. I had a theory that I could set the low end of the scale by using the RGBS function to set the black level of each color individually with a PLUGE pattern. Since the results weren't what I had expected, I have to ask if is this a feasible way of accomplishing this? After more adjustments, my picture looks fairly gray now (in B&W; and thanks for the tip about setting scale while viewing a B&W movie instead of staring at those damn grayscale test patterns for hours) but some films still appear a bit dark and I'm thinking that one or more of the colors being "buried" below black may be causing this.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The VM's i refer to are in that one column, i forget the number, but they include "VM" values. I have set those to all zero from day one.



(I thought I wrote an article about this, but now I can't find it.)


In 2170P-3, the four vm parameters, nos. 2-5, VMCR~VMDL shape the way vm works, but they don't determine how much vm is working. (VMLV is simply a readout of what's in effect at the monent.) The amount of vm is set in 2170P-3, nos. 17-20, VM~VML. The amount of velocity modulation is a number from 0-15, with 0 = OFF. There are separate numbers stored for *each* of the four picture mode, and so you can visualize a chart of these four parameters as having four columns.


VM = the minimum amount, sort of like an offset. Set it to 0 for all modes.

VML is the amount you get when you choose High for ClearEdge, VMM is for Medium, and VML is for Low. (I have forgotten if the VM value is added to VMH, VMM, VML, or if it's present even when ClearEdge is off in the user menu. But set it uniformly to 0 so that you *always* have an OFF option.)


Personally I think a vm amount over 6 is too much -- a falseness creeps into the picture on high-quality video. So I have set, for each picture mode:


VMH=6, VMM=4, and VML=2 -- way lower than Sony's original settings.


Now, when you choose ClearEdge at None or Off, you're guaranteed no VM at all, and Low, Medium, and High are fairly small amounts: 2, 4, and 6. The new High is perfect for SD broadcast, and Low works well for HD. Easily changed in the user menu.


In 2170P-3, I have those those four shaping parameters set to 0-3-0-8 for VMCR~VMDL. Nitewatchman likes 6 for VMDL. I've tried it as high as 12. It's a delay factor, and the effect is super-subtle,. You can experiment. 8 suits me, but YMMV.


> Quote:
> You mentioned the PRE, SHFO, PPHA values have no impact on 480P material right? I mostly view 480p material, so i imagine SHAP is the only value that comes into play with 480p.



Nope. 480p coming into the TV bypasses the 2103 chip entirely, and so none of the 2103-1 parameters affect 480p.


> Quote:
> My only usual trouble is dechipering which values you post compliment (or go along with) with SYSM=3, and which deal with SYSM=2. Again, i understand a lot of this has to do with my personal learning curve as well.



In that original article *here* , I paired them so you could associate the parameters with which SYSM you're using. Read those four rules near the end of the article. Those are the rules I'm following to change settings that work well with SYSM=2 to work well with SYSM=3.


----------



## fred33

I have tried to tweak 2170D-1 (0-16 ) and 217OD-2 ( 0- 18 ) along with MID1 (0-5) and MID3 (0-3) while at 1080i at Full mode.


Everything looks pretty good except part of the picture on the left seems a bit cut off. I can take the picture to the edge using the size (horizontal) but it seems that there might be another adjustment that would reveal more of the picture.

To put this another way, when I input a 1080i signal to my TV from my computer, a small portion of the pic will not show up on the left of the screen. I was wondering if anyone knew if there was an adjustment that might help out.


Thanks.


SONY KD 34XBR960


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have tried to tweak 2170D-1 (0-16 ) and 217OD-2 ( 0- 18 ) along with MID1 (0-5) and MID3 (0-3) while at 1080i at Full mode.
> 
> 
> Everything looks pretty good except part of the picture on the left seems a bit cut off. I can take the picture to the edge using the size (horizontal) but it seems that there might be another adjustment that would reveal more of the picture.
> 
> To put this another way, when I input a 1080i signal to my TV from my computer, a small portion of the pic will not show up on the left of the screen. I was wondering if anyone knew if there was an adjustment that might help out.



You have to decide what your reference should be. If 1080i is your reference you need to reset MID1 and MID3 to their default settings. Then you use ONLY 2170D-1 and 2 to, first center and then size the raster, or default viewing area.


Then if your 480i is slightly shifted use MID2 to fix it. Other screen modes and inputs you fix in MID3.


----------



## fred33

Default setting can be misleading. Default as in what is listed in the service manual papers, or default as to the settings it came with from the factory.

The settings from the factory are mostly changed. If I default from the service menu, I still need to tweak more than just 2170D-1 and 3 and MID-1 and MID-3.


For example, 217oD-3, items 1LBLK and 2RBLK and in MID1, item 8MDHP, and 9MDVP and 10MDHS.


...and thanks for your reply


----------



## Napoleon D




> Quote:
> Quote:
> 
> You mentioned the PRE, SHFO, PPHA values have no impact on 480P material right? I mostly view 480p material, so i imagine SHAP is the only value that comes into play with 480p.
> 
> 
> Nope. 480p coming into the TV bypasses the 2103 chip entirely, and so none of the 2103-1 parameters affect 480p.



Thanks for your continued help.


For the 2103 menu, SHAP most definitely has effect on my 480p material. This is for the component input 480p. The XP-30 dvd player puts out 480p on my Sony RPTV. If 2103 (which includes SHAP, PREO etc.) doesn't affect 480p, I wonder why it is still affecting the material. As i lower SHAP while watching 480p, there is an obvious change that is happening - as with lowering SHAP the coarsness of the image is lessened. The SM confirms that it is 480p on the screen as well.


My display could be one of the odd ones out that don't fully comply with Ken's findings, as some of the codes he lists don't exist on my tv.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For the 2103 menu, SHAP most definitely has effect on my 480p material. This is for the component input 480p.



I can force my DVD player to send 480p thru the component inputs, and I'll check it again. But all my comments are based specifically on what I know about the DA-4 chassis, which means 30, 32, 34, and 36" tube-based XS and XBR models. It is likely you have a completely different chassis, and there's no telling what the differences are. I'm surprised there are so many SM parameters in common!

UPDATE: Just checked and confirmed: On the direct-view DA-4 chassis, 480p is unaffected by 2103-1/SHAP or any other 2103 parameter.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can force my DVD player to send 480p thru the component inputs, and I'll check it again.
> 
> !



Just doublechecked it(again) - on KD34XBR960, SHAP definetely has no effect on 480p via V5/V6 ... which makes sense, as according to block diagrams, 480p/720p/1080i don't pass through 2103CXA chip .....



> Quote:
> But all my comments are based specifically on what I know about the DA-4 chassis, which means 30, 32, 34, and 36" tube-based XS and XBR models. It is likely you have a completely different chassis, and there's no telling what the differences are. I'm surprised there are so many SM parameters in common!



Definitely .... I'd thought I'd remembered at one point Napoleon D had posted he was also using a KD34XBR960 in addition to his RPTV, and assumed that was what he was posting about here -- but, going back through his posts from the past several months, I see I must have confused him with someone else ...


Judging by his last post, and the Sony KP-57WS520 in his signature -- of course, as he menitoned That's a RP CRT set, not a direct-view CRT ! ... I also expect many, many things could be, and likely are quite different. I'd also expect much(probably most) of our discussion here may not apply to his set, even though it sounds like we may be getting something somewhat similar concerning SYSM=2/SYSM=3 ..... Perhaps it would be interesting to hear about anything he may find useful concerning the SM info posted here about the DA-4 chassis sets which he finds can be applied to his set in some sort of useful+benefical manner, and/or any of the differences he may also encounter ....


Wonder if there is a servicecode chart or block diagrams posted somewhere that's "freely available" for KP-57WS520 which we could take a look at ?


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

Does it matter which scan mode is used to properly set the raster?


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo*
Does it matter which scan mode is used to properly set the raster?
The initial adjustment of (1) the raster on the CRT followed by (2) the video frame in the raster, is described by Sony in the attached document. This adjustment is fundamental to all other centering adjustments.

 

XS955|XBR960 Geometry.pdf 146.7265625k . file


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Let me put it into context. See the chart *here* , Section I, so you can see all of the black-level settings in one place.
> 
> 
> 2170P-1, #2/YOF = defaults as shipped
> 
> 
> SBRT = 29
> 
> 
> RCUT~BCUT = 43-21-24
> 
> 
> And in 2170P-3, UBOF ranges from 3-5, depending on the input source.
> 
> 
> But these can really vary from set to set. You have little incentive to try for 31 on SBRT; 29 is fine. However, if you were down around 15 (as my set was as-delivered), I'd recommend a, um, rebalancing of SBRT and the _CUT settings. (15! Can you say "black crush"?)



Ken funny thing Your RCUT-BCUT is'nt any different from my factory settings out of the box of:


RCUT: 45 GCUT: 15 BCUT: 20


Either we have similar eyes for tweaking PQ or it's a coicidence










Take care!


Matt~


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The initial adjustment of (1) the raster on the CRT followed by (2) the video frame in the raster, is described by Sony in the attached document. This adjustment is fundamental to all other centering adjustments.



Does this apply to the 30HS420? I'm assuming it does.


----------



## Mathesar

Would anyone know if its possible to adjust the Convergence on a Sony KV-27FS12 in the Service menu? I entered and scanned through the menu but it looks completely different from my XBR960N's service menu and I didnt see anything related to convergence. (most of the items have weird abbreviations so I could of missed it) The upper left corner needs an adjustment pretty badly, Thanks in advance.


Here's a pic I took: link


----------



## Myke256

How come when I adjust my picture size for 1080i on Inout 6 it also makes the same adjustments to my TV picture? Input 6 is tied to the Full Mode and I watch TV in Wide Zoom. Shouldn't the adjustments to my 1080i not effect my picture when watch regular TV? TV is an HS model


----------



## ntzineff

I did a search, but I could not find a simple boiled down version of my question. I just need to move the whole picture about 2 clicks to the left...if someone can make this as simple as possible I would really appreciate it. Thanks. PS I am scared as hell to enter the service menu, but I know this has to be done, so I can stop going insane when I look at my TV.


----------



## KenTech

*SERVICE-MODE DOCUMENTS & CHARTS REPOST*


I'm willing to bet some folks are having a tough time finding these, now lost to the sands of time . . . er, I mean lost somewhere in this long thread. At the very least, the Service Data Chart is a must-have for fiddling in service mode because nothing makes more plain the relationships among the codes, picture modes, video modes, and inputs.


Remember that folks with HS420- and HS510-series sets will have codes very similar to these, usually a subset. Likewise, the XS955 sets lack a few codes that are used specifically in the XBR960, e.g. for TwinView and iLink. The defaults vary a bit for the earlier sets, too. But the charts' value is in their organization of the whole confusing mess into something sensible.

 

XS955|XBR960 Service Data.pdf 405.4189453125k . file

 

XS955|XBR960 conv_geom_p1-6.pdf 302.4365234375k . file

 

XS955|XBR960 conv_geom_p7-10.pdf 476.783203125k . file


----------



## fred33

I have adjusted the 'raster' a few times using the service manual. Is it normal to find a lighter band on the right side of the rasting when starting the adjustment?


----------



## vazel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ntzineff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I did a search, but I could not find a simple boiled down version of my question. I just need to move the whole picture about 2 clicks to the left...if someone can make this as simple as possible I would really appreciate it. Thanks. PS I am scared as hell to enter the service menu, but I know this has to be done, so I can stop going insane when I look at my TV.



very simple. check out post #14. you want the value HPOS.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Kentech thank you very much sir for your thread, i have gotten the best out of my sony from your thread.


In fact i have nothing left to tweak, i pretty much tweaked everything in the service menu known to man










Just wanted to say thanks,


Matt~


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> *Minor Changes to SYSM=3 Recommendations and "Tuning" the 2103 Chip*
> 
> 
> I used the internal HD color bars plus a complex pattern I have devised for memory-stick use that places a large number of strong colors in different adjacent positions. I looked carefully at the vertical boundaries between contrasting colors. It seemed to me that setting MHLC=2 increased the "cleanliness" of these transitions (which is, of course, next to godliness), eliminating some subtle bright artifacts and gaps. For HD patterns, the improvement was noticeable and will likely benefit any HD source material with strong adjacent colors. I'm going for it!.



I went for it too for all the MID5 columns I have set up to use with MHLY=2 for "SYSM=3" ... I was a little surprised at how evident the improvement was in the internal "QM section" HD Color bars.


Then again, when I'd looked at MHLC=2 previously, I should have known better than to try to see what it "does" with the AVIA resolution/sharpness patterns, and should have thought to check out color bars with it ... Duh!


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On another note --- I'm trying something a little "radical" with 720p(*only* for 720p) for my "tuned" for SYSM=3 settings ..... It's very much on "initial" probation :


For 720p *only* with my "tuned for SYSM=3" settings --- I'm trying SHFO=0, and F1LV=1 Along with the following "experimental" MID5 column I have set up (everything else in the column is "0" except for the below) :


#0 POP - 31

#1 MHLY - 2

#2 MHLC - 2

#6 MHYL - 3

#7 MHYE - 5

#10 MHCL - 3

#11 MHCE - 5

#14 MVYL - 3


------------------------------------------------------------------


That's MHYE/MHCE +2 as compared to my "tuned for SYSM=2" MID5 column #60, and also with the addition of MVYL=3 vs MVYL=0 for my MID5 column 60, where of course I have MHLY/MHLC at "0" as well ...


Too "radical?" I'm not sure yet, it may require some more "Fine tuning" -- perhaps just "backing off" a bit of some of the above settings for 720p, so to speak(probably starting with MVYL=0 instead of 3) .... Unfortunetly, I don't currently have a way to look at any 720p test patterns other than the internal QM patterns, and mostly am looking at HD programming via ATSC ....


So far The short bit of time I've looked at it with 720p HD programming (and SD upconverts), I've liked it and, unlike everything else (all other scan rates/devices) , and everything else I've tried for 720p+SYSM=3, it's really been the first time with 720p I've "liked" the "tuned for SYSM=3" settings "better" than the "tuned for SYSM=2 settings ...


At this point, I think it was changing SHFO to 0 which I think Is "helping" the most with the 720p SYSM=3 settings .... Just to doublecheck it to see if I might like SHFO at 0 elsewhere as well .... I tried it (again) elsewhere (1080i, 480i SD, 480i DVD with some test patterns/etc) however, and at this point am pretty sure I want to keep SHFO=1 everywhere else but 720p (I didn't look at it again with 480p DVD, though) - "Everything else" all seems to work very very nicely with SYSM=3/SHOF=3, MID5 Columns set up with MHLY=2/MHLC=2 and MHYE/MHCE at +1 or +2 vs. the "tuned for SYSM=2" setting, and adding MYVL=3 for some SD sources ...


I just see nothing I like with SHFO=0 elsewhere, and I even seem to be getting some increased ringing with it elsewhere ... While that might be the case with 720p as well, so far I haven't seen a problem with it .. compared to my tuned for SYSM=2 settings(with SHFO=1 for instance) at least ....


Any thoughts? Not that I'm worried about the "sharpness police" or anyting, but Might I be missing something/doing a little "too much" here ?


Thanks ahead of time for any comments/thoughts !


----------



## Dazog

When my 34xs955 goes into 4:3 on the right hand side of the screen just beside the Black bar, I have a small narrow white line that runs down the black bar, Can I remove this in the Service Menu?


If so where so I can get rid of it.


----------



## nick2003




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dazog* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When my 34xs955 goes into 4:3 on the right hand side of the screen just beside the Black bar, I have a small narrow white line that runs down the black bar, Can I remove this in the Service Menu?
> 
> 
> If so where so I can get rid of it.



Sounds like underscan, Adjust the same way as overscan but add more to it instead. Use a test pattern on Avia or DVE if possible.


----------



## Dazog

the whiteline runs thorugh the picture, i guess i could snap a pic with my digital camera


----------



## darcon_adonis

Hi guys! I have a 30XS955, and I first want to say that using all the tweaks for black/white levels, sharpness, and the image processing tweaks that KenTech has provided has improved my image tenfold! On to the main question...


I have properly configured my geometry in 2170D-2 & 3, and I have set the overscan for each of my components in the MID2 table. Its worth noting that on my set, ALL modes seem to be set in MID2, and I could not find a MID3 setting that did any overscan adjustments for 480i through 1080i. I've also noticed that the component inputs 6 & 7 share their settings in MID2. My question is: is there anyway that I can have two different overscan settings for inputs 6 & 7? If you're curious, I want to overscan one because the PS2 underscans all its games, but I don't want to overscan my other component. Thanks.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *darcon_adonis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi guys! I have a 30XS955, and I first want to say that using all the tweaks for black/white levels, sharpness, and the image processing tweaks that KenTech has provided has improved my image tenfold! On to the main question...
> 
> 
> I have properly configured my geometry in 2170D-2 & 3, and I have set the overscan for each of my components in the MID2 table. Its worth noting that on my set, ALL modes seem to be set in MID2, and I could not find a MID3 setting that did any overscan adjustments for 480i through 1080i. I've also noticed that the component inputs 6 & 7 share their settings in MID2. My question is: is there anyway that I can have two different overscan settings for inputs 6 & 7? If you're curious, I want to overscan one because the PS2 underscans all its games, but I don't want to overscan my other component. Thanks.



There seems to be so many different designs of Sony TV's out there, that I might not be wrong...but...!


Since the 30XS955, 34XS955 and the 34XBR960 share the same service data, I will state that you are mistaking. Download the Service Data from KenTech #1185 and check it out. You set the raster in 2170D-1 and 2. You center the picture on the raster for 480i in MID2, 0-3 and the rest in MID3, 0-3.


You cannot have 2 different settings for 480i using input 6 & 7. Are you sure that your PS2 cannot deliver 480p, cause then you can separate the signals.


----------



## darcon_adonis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There seems to be so many different designs of Sony TV's out there, that I might not be wrong...but...!
> 
> 
> Since the 30XS955, 34XS955 and the 34XBR960 share the same service data, I will state that you are mistaking. Download the Service Data from KenTech #1185 and check it out. You set the raster in 2170D-1 and 2. You center the picture on the raster for 480i in MID2, 0-3 and the rest in MID3, 0-3.
> 
> 
> You cannot have 2 different settings for 480i using input 6 & 7. Are you sure that your PS2 cannot deliver 480p, cause then you can separate the signals.



Hey! Thanks for the response. You may be right about the 2170D numbers, I was just going from memory...the point was to state that I had already properly set the raster in that section. As for the MID settings, I swear to you that there is nothing in my MID3 that centers anything, and every resolution I've tried goes off of MID2. I got my TV from Crutchfield this past Christmas.


Either way, you already confirmed what I feared...I guess I'm gonna have to live with one way or the other







. The PS2 only has progressive scan for some games unfortunately.


----------



## Jester0288

I accidentally set my KV-30HS420 to "factory/newborn" state. I'm freakin out and don't know what to do. Will Sony customer support walk me through to set my tv back to normal? Does anyone know how to do this? Please help me.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Kentech thank you very much sir for your thread



You are very welcome!


> Quote:
> In fact i have nothing left to tweak



Please understand that this is a temporary delusion, and it will pass with time.


----------



## darcon_adonis

KenTech, having followed all of your other settings for black/white levels, sharpness, and image processing, I have come up with a picture that is satisfactory in all aspects except one - color. Trying my best to read through this thread, there have been several sections mentioning what settings are used to obtain perfect colors, but they are really scattered and swamped in other technical jargon, making it hard to read. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you possibly make a summary of those settings, and also maybe the settings *you* use, since you seem to have the best eye for these things out of anyone I've seen. I think this would be a great help in finalizing my calibration process (as much as it can be for the moment). I would greatly appreciate this!


Some examples of things I can notice wrong with my colors, incase you're wondering:

trouble balancing the colors using the AVIA Blue, Red, and Green-only bars (and my color guns).

Reds seem to have a hint of orange to them

colors are not balanced across 480i, 480p, and 1080i


Again, I think the summary mentioned above would be a great addition to this already miraculous thread!


----------



## faxtone

I have adjusted several convergence items while on service mode but can't seem to make the memory store the adjustments I have made. I did the mute + enter then power off but when i power it on back, the defect is still there, as if I have done nothing. What more combination remote keys can I press to store the adjustments to memory.


Thanks in advance.


----------



## nick2003

While calibrating my black level i could never get it set right after setting SBRT to 29 as whenever i adjusted UBOF or the brightness slider with SBRT set to 29 the picture would just get "smokey" as surfingmatt also explained it, And when seting UBOF to 0 the black level was just to dark although not very noticeable on DVD's sense HD is darker on my moto 6412 it was more visable. So i reset SBRT back to 20 (The default) and then i was able to adjust UBOF from 3 to 5 depending on the source as KenTech explained in one of the articles on here without geting the "smokey" look and it balances out the black level much better. Ive set my HD input to UBOF 5 but i haven't been able to calibrate my DVD player's brightness as it isn't working right but it looks like UBOF 4 is about right for that.


But this only pertains to the HS420 line and not the XS (That KenTech calibrated i beleave?) and the XBR)


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Nick, that's about exactly what i have done as well, since like you i too got that smokey look after a while of viewing program material only difference is i'm using an SBRT setting of 21.


I don't know man i guess we were both right, at first i thought SBRT was perfect at 29 then after a while of viewing material it was just off you know, black level too smokey for some material. So yeah i basically did what you did, and have my DVD input at UBOF 4 as well.


Nick maybe the reason why Kentech needed a higher SBRT setting was because the super fine pitch sony's have a darker picture and he had to raise SBRT to compensate? That's my guess and it's probably right on the money, since it appears the hs420 series tv's don't really need to be raised that high in SBRT.


----------



## nick2003




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Nick, that's about exactly what i have done as well, since like you i too got that smokey look after a while of viewing program material only difference is i'm using an SBRT setting of 21.
> 
> 
> I don't know man i guess we were both right, at first i thought SBRT was perfect at 29 then after a while of viewing material it was just off you know, black level too smokey for some material. So yeah i basically did what you did, and have my DVD input at UBOF 4 as well.



I tryed your SBRT setting of 21 and i like it even better.

Setting the black level like this combined with all of KenTechs other tweaks makes one hell of a picture











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Nick maybe the reason why Kentech needed a higher SBRT setting was because the super fine pitch sony's have a darker picture and he had to raise SBRT to compensate? That's my guess and it's probably right on the money, since it appears the hs420 series tv's don't really need to be raised that high in SBRT.



Yep I agree, Your probably exactly right on that.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

I( know how you feel Nick, i felt the same way last night with my tv after viewing some material it seemed the picture was just too dam smoky and the tv started to look more like an LCD than a CRT which was sad.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> at first i thought SBRT was perfect at 29 then after a while of viewing material it was just off you know, black level too smokey for some material. So yeah i basically did what you did, and have my DVD input at UBOF 4 as well.



Have you overlooked that the black level is also determined by the settings of RCUT, GCUT, and BCUT? Absent any changes to those parameters, a correct black level would be determined by *whatever* SBRT needs to be, given an unchanged _CUT trio, a Brightness setting of 31, and UBOF (as you say) at 4. If that's SBRT=10, so be it. The interrelationships are plain in the chart posted *here* . If blacks are "smoky," then you don't have it set correctly with either AVIA or DVE.


And don't make these judgements in a darkened room!


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you overlooked that the black level is also determined by the settings of RCUT, GCUT, and BCUT? Absent any changes to those parameters, a correct black level would be determined by *whatever* SBRT needs to be, given an unchanged _CUT trio, a Brightness setting of 31, and UBOF (as you say) at 4. If that's SBRT=10, so be it. The interrelationships are plain in the chart posted *here* . If blacks are "smoky," then you don't have it set correctly with either AVIA or DVE.
> 
> 
> And don't make these judgements in a darkened room!



No i did not know that,ij ust left those settings alone from the factory since i thought it might screw up my picture anyways are you saying i have to adjust these too with SBRT?


If so how do i go about adjusting them and what do they do?What test pattern do i use with DVE and what am i supposed to be looking for?


----------



## ragingd

So its ok to adjust RCUT and RDRV when adjusting grayscale? I thought that we just adjust BDRV, BCUT and GDRV and GCUT?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If so how do i go about adjusting them and what do they do?What test pattern do i use with DVE and what am i supposed to be looking for?



Dude, this has been explained several times on this forum, and I have written at least one article on it entitle "Getting Good Grayscale." I don't want to do any coaching when I have already spent so much time writing articles, sorry. I'll leave that to others.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ragingd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So its ok to adjust RCUT and RDRV when adjusting grayscale?



It's all been explained before!


----------



## SurfingMatt27

But my question is how do i adjust them? I mean what test pattern to use with DVE?How do i know if i set them right?What do i look for?etc.


This is so confusing that i think i'm just going to settle with the factory CUTS, and call it a day, because my factory settings are'nt any different then what yours were Ken.Maybe mine was settup better from the factory no?


----------



## Napoleon D

From all that I have seen, there are 2 things that seem consistent:


1. Everyone's set is going to calibrate colors slightly differently - meaning that some service codes will be more objective, while others will depend on the set, and the individual focus of the 3 CRT guns.


2. Factory settings can be good or bad, but are never "the best."


I recently had an ISF, where the colors were calibrated so that color decoding was 13-15-5-3 respectively. This looked good, but my eye told me this wasn't quite the colors of film. I had since made 2 or 3 adjustments - and changed the SYSM to 2. Now that the SYSM was changed, the previous color setting was hurting my eyes a little. I'm not sure why this is - it might be because the display wasn't quite calibrated around these color settings with SYSM now being at 2, throwing off a balance a little, causing things not to feel quite right with my vision. I then bumped up the RYR from 13 to 15, and everything felt fine.


(Note - i only changed the ISF's settings because SYSM-3 wasn't bringing certain frequencies of fine detail to the surface enough.)


I currently have my color decoding at 15-15-5-3, which is much easier/comfortable to look at - which works well with SYSM-2. But while it feels good to my eyes, i fear that it is slightly off, as 14-14-6-4 is the setting that looks the most accurate.


Ken and a few others found 14-14-6-4 as being the sweet spot for color decoding, at least for 480p material. I checked this out, and the colors look dead-on, no question about it. Unfortunately, since my set wasn't calibrated around these values perhaps, the result hurts my eyes a little. I have to keep it on 15-15-5-3 I find in a lot of cases that lowering RYR or RYB from 15 makes the image slightly harder on the eyes, and i'm not sure why this is.


How different can we have these specific color-decoding settings and still be in the ballpark?


I have a keen eye for colors in film, and without the benefit of equipment, can tell very easily how close the colors are to standard. (i only would calibrate by eye when i'm already 90% there)


I look at the trailer for Da Vinci Code: http://movies.yahoo.com/feature/thedavincicodeqt.html If the coloring on your computer monitors are accurate (which they normally are for the newer screens) you might see that this trailer is a fine example of how colors are supposed to look on film/dvd material - and how they normally DO look for film/theater material.


This is getting real observant and specific - I've noticed 2 separate opinions on color decoding. Objectively speaking, on film-based material, there is the slightest green-hue to whites. Different color pallettes are used for different films, but I imagine the grayscale is constant. You will notice in movies you see in the theater, on that trailer for Da Vinci Code - that whites are not pure white. Others calibrate their displays so that whites are pure white - while it looks pure, it still looks slightly different from film material. Avia recomends 13-15-5-3, but others have found that 14-14-6-3 yield more accurate results. The latter resebles film material more, while the former reflects more of that "pure white" look. Again, all in my observations, as crazy or ultra-observant as they are


* Ken - if there's anything in here you've already explained, you can feel free to disregard, as you've already helped me plenty.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Well i fiddled with the RCUT-BCUT and they do absolutely nothing except change the color of actual black, it has nothing to do with shadow detail from my observation.So i left them alone at the factory setting since i did'nt see any improvements.


As for SBRT i settled on 28 last night using pirates of the carribean as a referance while listening to the audio commentary with Gore Verbinski and Johnny Depp some good stuff very funny


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dude, this has been explained several times on this forum, and I have written at least one article on it entitle "Getting Good Grayscale." I don't want to do any coaching when I have already spent so much time writing articles, sorry. I'll leave that to others.
> 
> It's all been explained before!



Matt,


I read through much of this thread and located a number of posts that cover the waterfront for understanding and adjusting for greyscale:


30, 31, 54, 108-121..., 205, 209, 230, 234, 248, 249, 252, 263, 264, 269-287, 288, 310 and many more, but I believe these will guide you through the "whats" and the "hows."


Cheers!


----------



## SurfingMatt27

That's ok steve, greyscale looks fine to me right now with the factory defaults, you know the saying "if it aint broke.. don't fix it"










It's just the black level and balancing it across the inputs where i was having trouble with but seemed to have it worked out now.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is getting real observant and specific - I've noticed 2 separate opinions on color decoding. Objectively speaking, on film-based material, there is the slightest green-hue to whites. Different color pallettes are used for different films, but I imagine the grayscale is constant. You will notice in movies you see in the theater, on that trailer for Da Vinci Code - that whites are not pure white. Others calibrate their displays so that whites are pure white - while it looks pure, it still looks slightly different from film material. Avia recommends 13-15-5-3, but others have found that 14-14-6-3 yield more accurate results. The latter resembles film material more, while the former reflects more of that "pure white" look. Again, all in my observations, as crazy or ultra-observant as they are.



I have found that since most of the consumer TVs are factory set to 10000K+ and many computer monitors run 9300K, when I look at a D65 monitor (Sony PVM-96), I too, see a slight green-hue to the gray-scale. It makes sense, when you calibrate to D65 from the factory settings, normally way above 6500K, you reduce Blue and Red, leaving more green. Additionally, Green is the easiest for the eye to see and having slight +Green calibration errors can be quite visible. Napoleon D, good observation.


As for the color decoding, all component signals will be slightly different. That is why all the RYR/RYB/GYR/GYB will be slightly different from each input device (a DVD player will be different from a HDTV STB and no two devices, like two DVD players will be exactly the same).


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I currently have my color decoding at 15-15-5-3, which is much easier/comfortable to look at - which works well with SYSM-2. But while it feels good to my eyes, i fear that it is slightly off, as 14-14-6-4 is the setting that looks the most accurate. . . . Ken and a few others found 14-14-6-4 as being the sweet spot for color decoding, at least for 480p material. I checked this out, and the colors look dead-on, no question about it. Unfortunately, since my set wasn't calibrated around these values perhaps, the result hurts my eyes a little.



I don't understand what you mean by this. Color isn't calibrated so as not to "hurt the eyes." Also, you do not have the same chassis as the sets being discussed here, and so you can't assume that any particular setting of color decoding that I or anyone else thinks is "perfect" is perfect for you. I don't see what you see, since your rptv has its own idiosyncrasies. And whatever you choose for SYSM has no bearing on color accuracy!


Color calibration is in two parts, and they DO NOT interact:


(1) The calibration of the _CUT and _DRV parameters establishes the color of white and a perfect gray scale. ONLY a gray step-scale or a b/w movie can be used for this, preferebly the former. Goals: First, 100% white should be close to 6500K and free of pink or green contamination. (Your eyes will adjust to any small variation from 6500K.) If whites look greenish, they are *wrong.* The _DRV controls have the greatest effect.


Second the various grays should be the same color as white. The _CUT controls have the greatest effect, here. _DRV and _CUT groups *interact,* and so you have to go back and forth between them until you have it right. You may be fiddling for a few days at this, but getting this right contributes more to a picture's color-accuracy than anything else.


(2) You have to adjust the color decoding from your DVD player, and that is done with a calibration disk, not by eyeballing it! Use AVIA or DVE and the switching off of various color guns, not the plastic color filters. This uses specific color patters on the disks, not grayscale steps and equalizes the intensity of color *when it is present,* an entirely different matter from adjusting the grayscale. The calibration disks are self-instructing for these patterns, and/or the existing srticles in this forum will help you.


> Quote:
> How different can we have these specific color-decoding settings and still be in the ballpark? . . . I have a keen eye for colors in film, and without the benefit of equipment, can tell very easily how close the colors are to standard. (i only would calibrate by eye when i'm already 90% there)



For grayscale, I believe you -- maybe. For color of white -- unless you have a standard (clouds, say) or a measuring instrument, you have no idea what your white color-temp is. And in a dark room, you will hallucinate all sorts of color tints to a white screen, sending you around in circles! For color-decoding adjustment, it's an established standard, easily obtained with one of the calibration DVDs, not a matter of opinion. If colors are rendered according to a freshly-calibrated TV in a manner you don't like, then it's the *movie* that has those colors. You can't adjust your TV for every movie, its director's color choices and biases, and faults in its processing! You'll go nuts! You'll be seeing movies as they are, not as you want them to be, which is correct. On this matter, the TV *can* be set up accurately, within its design limitations. If the color is too garish for you, turn it down with the user menu's Color control.


That said, imperfections in the CRTs' R, G, and B phosphors, errors in the electronics, and disparities between the HD + SD color primaries and the actual CRT phosphors all contribute to less-than-perfect reproduction despite your best efforts. For my part, I am certain, after many months now, that the reproduction on the fine-pitch DA-4 chassis sets is *absolutely exquisite.* You've got an entirely different-design set, so YMMV!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It makes sense, when you calibrate to D65 from the factory settings, normally way above 6500K, you reduce Blue and Red, leaving more green.



Not at all! Sliding down the color-temperature locus in the color diagram does not add green as a contaminant, as you are making *proportional* changes to blue and red that reduce the apparent color temp without relatively adding green. Further, the correction for ~6500K is applied equally to bright, medium, and dim "white" and that does not imply that a correctly calibrated white will naturally result in green-contaminated grays. A good white has *no* greenish (or pinkish) component, and neither does a good grayscale. That is the way my set now appears; there's no reason to assume it can't be achieved, unless a particular set has differential nonlinearity in its video amplifiers.


> Quote:
> As for the color decoding, all component signals will be slightly different. That is why all the RYR/RYB/GYR/GYB will be slightly different from each input device (a DVD player will be different from a HDTV STB and no two devices, like two DVD players will be exactly the same).



All you can do is the best you can, and for DVD that means using a calibration DVD. If that clashes with your HD STB, you will have to pick your priorities. Other inputs can be very well tweaked with the internal test patterns on the DA-4 chassis. In my case, calibrating the DVD player thru component input V5 in 480i also resulted in perfect calibatioin for (internal-tuner) HDTV, analog cable, digital SD cable, and 480p thru HDMI. Absent certain tools and skills, you can at least get the DVD input correct, since you want movies (I presume) to be somewhat accurate, and Sony's factory adjustment may not be so far off for the others.


Note that setting the RGB color-decoding parameters correctly is different from tweaking the two color-component gains (Cb, Cr). That, too, can be tweaked for component color.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ragingd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So its ok to adjust RCUT and RDRV when adjusting grayscale? I thought that we just adjust BDRV, BCUT and GDRV and GCUT?



To clarify, the *average* of the three _DRV settings controls the brightness of white, and small identical changes made to *each* of the three will change the brightness without changing the color. Same with the _CUT parameters, which work at the "black" end of the brightness range.


Example: My _CUT settings are 43-21-24 for RCUT~BCUT, and SBRT is 29. If I change *each* of the _CUT settings by the *same amount* I will change the brightness, not the color, of dark gray or near-black. (I can't say if this is absolutely true for large changes -- that assumes too much about the linearity of these adjustments relative to each other.) So if I (for some reason) wanted SBRT to be, say, 31, then I could set SBRT up to 31 and drop each of the _CUT settings by 2: 41-19-22. It is *differences* between the _CUT settings that change the color of near-black, and *differences* between the _DRV settings that change the color of white. Since white is "built on a pedestal" of _CUT settings, changes in _CUT also slightly change the color of white; that's why you have to go back and forth a few times.


Typically, if you are adjusting only color, you arbitrarily leave one of the color settings alone and adjust the two others. Green is a good choice. And so, if you are tweaking *just* your color temperature (white), ignore GDRV and tweak RDRV and BDRV. Just be consistent about which one you ignore, and you'll be fine. Same with the _CUT adjustments. It's when you adjust *all three* that the brightness changes significantly.


I hope that helps.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You will notice in movies you see in the theater, on that trailer for Da Vinci Code - that whites are not pure white.



That's right! And that reason is the theaters' dirty little secret: The xenon-arc light sources are greenish-blue and must be filtered to appear near-white. But if they are filtered to be perfectly white at 6500K, they are too dim, as the filter robs too much light. And so such projectors are allowed by convention to be brighter -- and a little greenish, since that is the color that contributes most to brightness. As you might guess, it's an *economic* issue. Boy, would I love to see now a carbon-arc projector like I grew up with! (BTW, this issue is fairly well-documented in a couple of online white papers.)


A new 12-screen upscale cinemaplex near my home (Regal Theaters) did a horrible job on a couple of recent films I thought would be in dazzling color: They were dim, the whites were quite greenish, and the print was poor in color and not sharp. I paid how much for this?! Back to my favorite older theaters, I guess.


I am now waiting for the DVD releases of those same films so I can see them with the color and brightness that was intended. Yes, I will sit with my feet at the base of the TV! So much for the "theater standard."


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not at all! Sliding down the color-temperature locus in the color diagram does not add green as a contaminant, as you are making *proportional* changes to blue and red that reduce the apparent color temp without relatively adding green. Further, the correction for ~6500K is applied equally to bright, medium, and dim "white" and that does not imply that a correctly calibrated white will naturally result in green-contaminated grays. A good white has *no* greenish (or pinkish) component, and neither does a good grayscale. That is the way my set now appears; there's no reason to assume it can't be achieved, unless a particular set has differential nonlinearity in its video amplifiers.All you can do is the best you can, and for DVD that means using a calibration DVD. If that clashes with your HD STB, you will have to pick your priorities. Other inputs can be very well tweaked with the internal test patterns on the DA-4 chassis. In my case, calibrating the DVD player thru component input V5 in 480i also resulted in perfect calibatioin for (internal-tuner) HDTV, analog cable, digital SD cable, and 480p thru HDMI. Absent certain tools and skills, you can at least get the DVD input correct, since you want movies (I presume) to be somewhat accurate, and Sony's factory adjustment may not be so far off for the others.
> 
> 
> Note that setting the RGB color-decoding parameters correctly is different from tweaking the two color-component gains (Cb, Cr). That, too, can be tweaked for component color.



For reference, the coordinates for D65 are .313x, .329y. At 10000K they are roughly .281x, .288y.


To achieve D65 from 10000K, if you don't change Blue, you will need to add Red to get x to .313, then you will need to add green to get y to .329. If you choose to not change Green, then typically you will reduce Blue until y=.329 and then usually need to reduce Red until x=.313


If you have been looking at 10000K for a long time, D65 can have the appearance of being slightly greener. It just depends upon your reference point.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

i just read through the first few pages

rather confusing but it seems the only setting i need to mess with is the SBRT

which my set is set to 22,

im a big gamer, and i have the XBR960N

what do other people who have this set have the sbrt set to, im going to do what i need with it, but im curious...


edit: my problem being that things are so dark i cannot see anything during video games


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For reference, the coordinates for D65 are .313x, .329y. At 10000K they are roughly .281x, .288y.
> 
> 
> To achieve D65 from 10000K, if you don't change Blue, you will need to add Red to get x to .313, then you will need to add green to get y to .329. If you choose to not change Green, then typically you will reduce Blue until y=.329 and then usually need to reduce Red until x=.313



Okay, but how exactly does this contribute to the discussion here?


Many of the folks who post here are watching their Sony CRT sets in Warm mode, which is not 6500K and has a color cast to boot, but it's no 10,000K, either. If the white point is set along that black-body locus, having no green or magenta contamination, the eye is very forgiving of deviations from 6500K, and what is white is determined more by what the eye-brain thinks the ambient light's color temp is. If the predominant (but not the only) light the eye sees is the TV, 6500K +/- 200K looks really neutral white. But if there is a part of the room getting some afternoon sunlight, say, and your eye is taking that in as well, the TV can look cold or warm, depending on the paint, furnishings, carpet, and time of day! Depends on what the eye-brain thinks is *really* white in the *whole* context. If a tree just outside the window has leafed in and is causing a green cast to the light, the TV will look pink!


The evening viewing room with fairly neutral lighting, bright enough so the eyes do not become dark-adapted, but dim enough that the TV sets the brain's color-temperature reference, is perfect. The TV should be bright enough so that the eyes see vivid color (tough in theaters!), but not so bright to be irritating. Obsessing about the color temperature of the room lighting will buy you very little. (You'd also have to paint the wall behind the TV a dead-neutral gray for it to matter.)


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Okay, but how exactly does this contribute to the discussion here?



This is just some factual information on how things work in the color space. It may be useful/informative to some reading this thread. Not everyone starts from the Warm setting, nor does everyone understand what relationship a change in Red, Green, or Blue (cuts/drives) has on the target white balance. (for instance, -1 Blue is approximately equal to +.7 Green and +.7 Red)


I could adjust three XBR960s, sitting next to each other, all to 6500K +/-. One would look Greenish (+green), one would look correct and one would look Pinkish (-Green). This happens because 6500K is a range of coordinates above and below the D65 point on the Black Body Curve. The eye is capable of seeing color changes as little as .002 on the y-axis and .004 on the x-axis. This has been tested and demonstrated in ISF training classes.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i just read through the first few pages
> 
> rather confusing but it seems the only setting i need to mess with is the SBRT
> 
> which my set is set to 22,
> 
> im a big gamer, and i have the XBR960N
> 
> what do other people who have this set have the sbrt set to, im going to do what i need with it, but im curious...
> 
> 
> edit: my problem being that things are so dark i cannot see anything during video games




set it to 31, still having problems


----------



## nick2003




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> set it to 31, still having problems



Try changing UBOF, You will most likely need to change it for each input.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

i forget, whats ubof


----------



## nick2003




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i forget, whats ubof



Black Level adjustment on top of the global Black Level (SBRT)

Your black level is probably diffrent on your video game console so adjusting UBOF will correct it while leaving the black level alone on the other inputs.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I could adjust three XBR960s, sitting next to each other, all to 6500K +/-. One would look Greenish (+green), one would look correct and one would look Pinkish (-Green). This happens because 6500K is a range of coordinates above and below the D65 point on the Black Body Curve.



The instrumentation you are using is then helpful but not adequate. The goal is to be *on* the black-body locus, which is free of pink or green contamination. That's why the eye plays an important part, as I said before. Perhaps you should move up to a colorimeter with a three-color sensor array.


> Quote:
> The eye is capable of seeing color changes as little as .002 on the y-axis and .004 on the x-axis. This has been tested and demonstrated in ISF training classes.



Under what conditions? Could you briefly describe the procedure? As a comparator, using a simultaneous reference, the eye is very color-sensitive. With a single source, however, it is adaptive and sees a range of black-body color temps as "white."


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nick2003* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Black Level adjustment on top of the global Black Level (SBRT)
> 
> Your black level is probably diffrent on your video game console so adjusting UBOF will correct it while leaving the black level alone on the other inputs.



my sbrt is at what ken had it to, what do you guys have your ubof set to

i dont want to get to high, 31 seems to be a great improvement though


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The instrumentation you are using is then helpful but not adequate. The goal is to be *on* the black-body locus, which is free of pink or green contamination.



Not completely true/accurate. What you fail to recognize is when (professionally) calibrating the grayscale, 6500K and D65 are two different things. I don't really care about the temperature; I am concerned with the actual coordinates. D65, the goal, is a point, .3127x, .3291y, 6500K is only a correlated color temperature of that point. Actually, D65 is just off the black-body curve, but is the standard that video is mastered to. The instrumentation is adequate and vital in a calibration. With it, I can actually see (graphically) where the error in grayscale is. If it is +.003 Green and -.002 Red, I can adjust for that. When adjustments cannot achieve the D65 point from 10/20 IRE to 100 IRE, I am able to compromise to ensure I don't error +Green. When an error exists, it is best to error +Blue, the least visible to the eye. In difficult situations, an optical comparator, like my Sony PVM-96, is a valuable backup.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's why the eye plays an important part, as I said before.Under what conditions? Could you briefly describe the procedure? As a comparator, using a simultaneous reference, the eye is very color-sensitive. With a single source, however, it is adaptive and sees a range of black-body color temps as "white."



It is simple, we set up a display and calibrated a white field to or as close to D65 as possible with the particular display. Next, we would adjust one of the cuts/drives observing the color change and measuring the change. +/- Green is the most noticeable, then Red followed by Blue. Plasmas present a problem with uniformity and while reading near D65, you might see green or pink areas requiring additional tweaking.


----------



## daltonlanny

Hi KenTech,

I have been tweaking the color and other picture perimeters on my Sony KD-36XS955 in the service menu with excellent results based on your recommendations.Thanks!

You mentioned that on your KD-36XS955 you are currently using:

SBRT of 29, and 43-21-24 on your _CUT settings.

As of current [3-23-06], what other settings are you using on 2170P-1 thru 2170P-4 such as:

RDRV

GDRV

BDRV

WBSW

UBOF

UCOF

UHOF

RYR

RYB

GYR

GYB

GAMMA

GAMMS

GAMR

GAMG

GAMB

BLK

SYSM

SPIO,

ETC.,ETC.

I read some of the settings you were using early on in this thread, but fear that you may have changed all or some of them since then.

Could you give us a run down of what you are currently using?

This would also help consolidate all of your current settings together intead of seperate and scattered.

This would be EXTREMELY helpful and informative indeed.

Thanks again!


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

I finally got my AVIA DVD today, and I was checking for overscan when I noticed something about the screen; at the top of my screen (where the 5% rectangle starts, and where there should be more of the on-screen image) about 1" is blacked out. Anybody know why this might be or better yet how I can fix the problem? By the way the tv is a Sony KV-30HS420, I know it was doing the same on the left side of the screen as well until I turned of HBLK but I see no setting to do the same for the top. The other odd thing is that when I shrink the screen down smaller to get a better look at it, it's like there is a line about 1" above the black space almost where the image should be going to. Any ideas?


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

I think I might have figured it out, the image was being overstretched on the raster. I think that sould fix it.


----------



## daltonlanny

To other Sony KD-36XS955 owners out there, including KenTech,

I would also see what your "tweaked out" service menu settings are as well.

Please share them.

Thanks!


----------



## Napoleon D

Bolo - If I were a betting man, I would bet that you own the Sony NS50 "upconverter" dvd player. Am I right?


If so, that player has a long sad history of squashing the image - typically over HDMI, and sometimes over component. I wouldn't call it a shift, moreover a vertical compression of the image which makes images appear wider then they should be. This is why you have the 1-inch black space on the top of the screen. I owned that player for a week, before I realized that the squashed image was completely unacceptable.


There are several threads dedicated to this issue. Because of that huge problem with that player, I think it is completely useless piece of machinery which belongs over a stack of papers rather than on a tv.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I finally got my AVIA DVD today, and I was checking for overscan when I noticed something about the screen; at the top of my screen (where the 5% rectangle starts, and where there should be more of the on-screen image) about 1" is blacked out. Anybody know why this might be or better yet how I can fix the problem? By the way the tv is a Sony KV-30HS420, I know it was doing the same on the left side of the screen as well until I turned of HBLK but I see no setting to do the same for the top. The other odd thing is that when I shrink the screen down smaller to get a better look at it, it's like there is a line about 1" above the black space almost where the image should be going to. Any ideas?



You do know there is a user menu adjustment don't you?


You don't have to go into the service menu to adjust the picture vertically and move it.Just an FYI


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> To clarify, the *average* of the three _DRV settings controls the brightness of white, and small identical changes made to *each* of the three will change the brightness without changing the color. Same with the _CUT parameters, which work at the "black" end of the brightness range.
> 
> 
> Example: My _CUT settings are 43-21-24 for RCUT~BCUT, and SBRT is 29. If I change *each* of the _CUT settings by the *same amount* I will change the brightness, not the color, of dark gray or near-black. (I can't say if this is absolutely true for large changes -- that assumes too much about the linearity of these adjustments relative to each other.) So if I (for some reason) wanted SBRT to be, say, 31, then I could set SBRT up to 31 and drop each of the _CUT settings by 2: 41-19-22. It is *differences* between the _CUT settings that change the color of near-black, and *differences* between the _DRV settings that change the color of white. Since white is "built on a pedestal" of _CUT settings, changes in _CUT also slightly change the color of white; that's why you have to go back and forth a few times.



Ken,


I noticed this too. My SBRT is at 23, and my DRV and CUT settings are both 61, 22, 17. I notice my xCUT and xDRV ratios are far off from yours. Are there likely significant variations from set to set? Perhaps my DVD player color output difference may account for this as well, or are my settings likely off? I cross referenced my whites with the whites of clouds from DVDs that don't appear to have artistic digital color grading done to them, and they matched pretty closely to the clouds outside my window. My white is best described as an ever so slightly "golden" white, which to my eyes is the white I see from the front lit clouds. The picture looks nice, and the whites seem natural if only a tiny bit reddish. I have tried reducing red, but then green starts to get to strong. At some point, it seems a compromise must be made.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bolo - If I were a betting man, I would bet that you own the Sony NS50 "upconverter" dvd player. Am I right?
> 
> 
> If so, that player has a long sad history of squashing the image - typically over HDMI, and sometimes over component. I wouldn't call it a shift, moreover a vertical compression of the image which makes images appear wider then they should be. This is why you have the 1-inch black space on the top of the screen. I owned that player for a week, before I realized that the squashed image was completely unacceptable.
> 
> 
> There are several threads dedicated to this issue. Because of that huge problem with that player, I think it is completely useless piece of machinery which belongs over a stack of papers rather than on a tv.



Nope, I have the Toshiba SD-6980. I think I found the problem though, the image was just being stretched too much on the raster and there was not enough space to show the rest of it.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

Just picked up the DVE disc today, is it pretty self explanetory, i have not poped it in yet..

do i use service menu or sliders, or double you tee eff


----------



## nick2003




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just picked up the DVE disc today, is it pretty self explanetory, i have not poped it in yet..
> 
> do i use service menu or sliders, or double you tee eff



Do it all in the service menu, Read KenTech's guides, Everything you need to know is in this thread.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

i read it all, but some i didnt understand, maybe its cause i live in grand rapids and the stupid people make me stupid


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

I'm starting to feel a bit overwhelmed by all my "tweaking", not intimidated but very overwhelmed. I don't suppose there is a way to force the xbox 360 to produce a 1080i (or 720p for that matter) image to check for overscan.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

i dont think i did it correct, i was able to do it through sliders, i wasnt able to turn down brightness to where the outer black was as black as the background while still seeing the inner one, but i got it close.... ODD, i ended up turning down my brightness when i am having brightness problems of not being able to see, umm, the whole picture setting, and bloom thing, didnt make any sense to me, i went from minimum to max and never seen any line get bigger or smaller...

for color they said to use the blue filter, which they didnt give me, they gave me a purple, red and green... i tried my best with the contrast setting, and i guess thats up to 40 while brighness is down to like 27 or 24


----------



## nick2003




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm starting to feel a bit overwhelmed by all my "tweaking", not intimidated but very overwhelmed. I don't suppose there is a way to force the xbox 360 to produce a 1080i (or 720p for that matter) image to check for overscan.



Nope.


----------



## nick2003




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i dont think i did it correct, i was able to do it through sliders, i wasnt able to turn down brightness to where the outer black was as black as the background while still seeing the inner one, but i got it close.... ODD, i ended up turning down my brightness when i am having brightness problems of not being able to see, umm, the whole picture setting, and bloom thing, didnt make any sense to me, i went from minimum to max and never seen any line get bigger or smaller...
> 
> for color they said to use the blue filter, which they didnt give me, they gave me a purple, red and green... i tried my best with the contrast setting, and i guess thats up to 40 while brighness is down to like 27 or 24



Check your pm inbox


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i dont think i did it correct, i was able to do it through sliders, i wasnt able to turn down brightness to where the outer black was as black as the background while still seeing the inner one, but i got it close.... ODD, i ended up turning down my brightness when i am having brightness problems of not being able to see, umm, the whole picture setting, and bloom thing, didnt make any sense to me, i went from minimum to max and never seen any line get bigger or smaller...
> 
> for color they said to use the blue filter, which they didnt give me, they gave me a purple, red and green... i tried my best with the contrast setting, and i guess thats up to 40 while brighness is down to like 27 or 24




Don't use the filters use the colr guns in the service menu instead it's more accurate that way. the color guns is RGBS in the service menu.For adjusting brightness ignore the DVE narrator this is how you do it the right way. Adjust brightness untill the blacker than black bar is barely the same color as the background, don't adjust brightness untill the blacker than black bar dissapears that's when your crushing blacks.


I think the easiest way to adjust black level is to view material, especially people wearing black clothing,etc. This is the best way to adjust black level since there should be detail in those areas it should'nt be a blob of darkness. For example a person wearing a leather jacket, adjust untill you can see all the wrinkles in it, there should'nt be any blobs of darkness what i refur to as "Black Holes". You will see what i mean when you adjust it in realtime.


A few good movies to test are T2 ultimate edition or extreme edition, and pirates of the carribean. Both are excellent movies for shadow detail.


Matt~


p.s. Lower your contrast setting,raising it affects black level and picture detail, it's not as sharp with it at a higher setting.Keep it in the middle, trust me on this







.For a bright picture to see shadow detail you want to adjust brightness not contrast,raising contrast will lose detail.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

its very hard to see it but, i do see the darkest bar....

but the pools of black is what im having with video games, ill go in a tunel in burnout and see nothing but black...

colors i think are actually pretty fine.. and im having no problems at all with

i dont have this problem with movies or tv, or so it seems.. even playing movies on my 360


nick sent me his tv settings, which i think im going to try..


----------



## nick2003

Sense you have a 360, Download the NBA live 06 demo it has a brightness pattern in the settings. Each component in your setup needs to be calibrated separatly you can't just calibrate your DVD player and expect all inputs to be correct. And if your color hasn't been calibrated i can guarentee you have red push, Every Sony CRT does out of the box.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Yup, HDTV and SDTV have different black levels as you probably noticed..HD is darker hence your xbox360.


To fix the color decoder try RYR-14,RYB-14,GYR-6,GYB-4


To adjust your inputs to balance black level first find your input with the most reliable black level such as component inputs and set SBRT and leave that input at 0 for UBOF. Once SBRT is set then use UBOF to balance the other inputs in black level. Please note that UBOF is input and resolution dependant so it's different for each resolution and input you use.


Good night guys!


i'll get back to you tommorow if you still need help irhxcbcziuzxs


Matt~


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

Dont different games use different resolutions?

My 360 is on video 5

My Ps2 is on video 6

was there any purpose of me getting the dve, it didnt seem to do much good.

Like i said nick sent me his settings, very helpfull, but thats alot of settings to change. Everything looks fine, and great to boot, besides my 360, or maybe i just think it does... haha.... hmm, dunno

shouldnt nick's settings work fine...


----------



## nick2003

My settings are a starting point, Its not going to be 100% perfect on yours cause every set is a little diffrent from the factory and also because you probably have diffrent equipment then me. There basically Settings that i have got from the various guides KenTech has posted and some calibrating on my end and also from me and SurfingMatt discussing settings. DVE wasn't a waste cause you need it to calibrate your DVD player. Your probably going to need to adjust overscan, Geometry and alot of other settings also and you will need alot of patterns on DVE.


You sound like you may not be up to all of this, It is alot of work and a learning process, Maybe you would be better off geting an ISF calibration from someone trained. Just another option.


----------



## daltonlanny

Hey guys,

Overall which dvd is best for calibrating a Sony kd-36xs955 tv, the Avia dvd or the DVE disc?

What are the basic differences between them?

Do I need both of them or just one?

Thanks.


----------



## jcop

What are the global settings for picture quality calibration you recommend

thanks


----------



## SurfingMatt27

DVE, it has more test patterns and even more audio options as well to test your speaker system.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

some global settings are SBRT, RYR-GYB and QPDC for focus.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nick2003* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My settings are a starting point, Its not going to be 100% perfect on yours cause every set is a little diffrent from the factory and also because you probably have diffrent equipment then me. There basically Settings that i have got from the various guides KenTech has posted and some calibrating on my end and also from me and SurfingMatt discussing settings. DVE wasn't a waste cause you need it to calibrate your DVD player. Your probably going to need to adjust overscan, Geometry and alot of other settings also and you will need alot of patterns on DVE.
> 
> 
> You sound like you may not be up to all of this, It is alot of work and a learning process, Maybe you would be better off geting an ISF calibration from someone trained. Just another option.



nah its fine, im just slightly overwhelmed and frustrated.


----------



## Napoleon D

irhxdffabc123rsvp-


A lot of us are with you. I have some interest in this image science, but I by no means enjoy the extra strain of balancing all of these tedious codes. A lot of this is just a means to an end, which is being able to enjoy dvds on a perfect image. I would prefer not to be here asking about service menu settings. Some of it is fun and interesting, and I'm glad I've learned a new skill. But it is VERY frustrating to get things correct, especially when one thing after another doesn't work. Once you do get things right, which you eventually will one way or another, the payoff is that much better.


One thing i've learned - if you get as ISF, make sure you are clear on how you need the image to look to your eyes. There is a compromise between what's "standard," and what is pleasing to your eye. My set looked great after calibration, and as good as it looked, it was still a little rough on my eyes. I've since been tweaking it to slightly improve things, and have succeded mostly. It's expensive to have these technicians come by your house, so it's good that we've been able to halp each other out, and also learn something new at the same time.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

yea, im thankfull to nick for giving me his settings, and im sure it will be better than what i have now, i really would love to take a picture and show you guys the pools of black in these games... if its not better ill put it all back to the way it was.. tedius.. but.. oh well. was trying to use dve for my 360 but it ended up turning my brightness down double you tee eff, and my picture up as the contrast deal thing didnt work well, and i never seen any lines getting bigger, the color filter i have, is indeed purple unless purple changed to blue, and blue changed to purple, i have no eye problems of the such...


i will try nicks settings tonight, and let you guys know!


----------



## SurfingMatt27

irhxcbcziuzxs,


I'm starting to think that maybe there is something wrong with your tv, becuase i never on these forums have heard someone have such a problem even at SBRT at 31 you say it's still too dark, now right there i can tell there is a problem because at that setting it should show everything.Can you return this tv, how long have you owned it for?


----------



## ragingd

irhxcbcziuzxs,


Are you playing in a pitch black room? If you are see if you can put some type of light behind the tv. It helps alot.


----------



## nick2003

irhxcbcziuzxs,


In the usermenu what is your brightness and contrast set to? Set them both to the middle, When you adjust SBRT and UBOF in the service menu your brightness slider should be in the middle.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

I see you guys had to copy and paste his name as well huh LOL


----------



## nick2003




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I see you guys had to copy and paste his name as well huh LOL



Yep lol


----------



## Mathesar

I noticed on my XBR960 the left side of the screen is slightly darker and less focused vs. the rest of the screen , is there a service menu adjustment that might help this? Im familiar with navigating through the menu & making adjustments.. Just not sure what to try here.


I took this shot with my digicam which shows the symptoms , notice in the area where it says "Deliver the Amulet" the white backround gradualy turns grey on the left side of the screen, also the text gradualy loses focus on the left. Any ideas appreciated.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Well crt's don't generally have a uniform brightness.So this could be a reason to consider.


Theres nothing you can really do since it's inherant to CRT technology.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

not too long, im still under sony warranty...

sbrt is at 31, unless it didnt save, but im sure it did

and then after that i did dve in my 360, my brightness got brought down to 27 and picture went up to 40.. on the sliders...

i am not in a pitch black room i have two lamps in the room.... (i know part of the problem is glare)


as soon as i can, before changing my settings im going to take a picture of these things i speak of...


----------



## Zombi 78

I have an issue with my kv-30hs420. I was playing some FPSs (Doom 3) on the xbox last night and the whites would blur (make trails) when I moved real fast. It never did that on any other tv I had. I thought I might have had the picture (contrast) up to high, but turning it down did nothing. Is there anything to tweak for this issue? Also on the top left side of the screen the horizontal lines seem to bend slightly downward, yet the bottom left seems straight as can be. Thanks in advance for any help.


----------



## notrust




> Quote:
> To other Sony KD-36XS955 owners out there, including KenTech,
> 
> I would also see what your "tweaked out" service menu settings are as well.
> 
> Please share them.
> 
> Thanks!



I would like to second that request. I suppose I could go through the entire 43 page thread, but most of the settings have "evolved" over time. Therefore if I do go back and review the entire thread it will probably have to done backwards in order to get the most recent settings first.


----------



## fred33

I recently read that if one adjust the overscan just to the edges of the sony kd-34xbr960, that it will give distortion...like a fun house mirror when the picture scans. Has anyone heard of this?


With the 34xbr 960, what shoud the dimensions of the 4:3 display be? I have adjusted the geometry and when a 4:3 picture is displayed I am not sure if it is the right size.


Thanks


----------



## GeorgeAB

Disregard.


----------



## fred33

??


----------



## GeorgeAB

I wasn't referring to your post. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Mathesar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well crt's don't generally have a uniform brightness.So this could be a reason to consider.
> 
> 
> Theres nothing you can really do since it's inherant to CRT technology.



Hrm well my original XBR960 didnt do this so I figured something needs to be adjusted on this one..


Surely KenTech has some ideas?


----------



## SurfingMatt27

depends on the tv mathestar, some have it.. some don't.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hrm well my original XBR960 didnt do this so I figured something needs to be adjusted on this one.



There is a lot of variation from tube to tube, and mere mortals attach and align the deflection yoke, focus coils, and permanent magnets. So, sure, the finished TVs vary even more.


First the CRT sets all have a "hot" center area, and there's nothing that can be done. Sony could have compensated completely for it but didn't.


However, the picture you posted looks like a beam-landing problem to me, and you should try fixing it. It's one of the first things I did to my own set.


Read the article *here* .


If no amount of adjustment fixes a really dark patch at the center-left, you have a cause, I believe, to call out a service tech for a service-warranty adjustment. That is, if *they* can even fix it. If the deflection yoke is mismounted to the CRT, that will be a tough one, since a service tech might be afraid to touch it. You might suggest that it's a "purity" problem, and it might require repositioning of the yoke. But good luck! It may be fixable by you in SM in a jiffy.


Put up a uniform 50-75% gray or similar screen to see the real extent of the problem. A somewhat hot center is normal. A dark patch only at left-center is not. Use that screen to make your adjustments. The AVIA and DVE DVDs have suitable patterns available.


BTW, do you have a loudspeaker or other possible magnetic source at the left of the screen? An unshielded speaker too close to the screen can do this.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> To other Sony KD-36XS955 owners out there, including KenTech,
> 
> I would also see what your "tweaked out" service menu settings are as well.
> 
> Please share them.



I would be pleased to do this, but I have to explain: Some of these settings *will do you no good.* In particular, the settings for beam landing, geometry, dynamic focus, and dynamic convergence are really peculiar to each TV, as these are the adjustments that compensate for manufacturing variations, etc. The best starting point is frequently the default settings listed in the service-data charts.


Further, recommendations for anything having to do with brightness, white color temperature, grayscale accuracy, etc. can only be approximate, too. TVs vary somewhat, as you can see from reading recent posts on the 2170P-1SBRT, _CUT, and _DRV parameters.


On the matter of color decoding, the settings for 2170P-4: RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB tend to agree for common DVD players and the standard calibration disks. I like 14-14-6-4 for *zero* red push and minimum exaggerated blues. And that's way different from Sony's original settings! Others have tried and liked 13-15-5-3. You have to do it with *your* TV and a calibration disk, but I believe 14-14-6-4 would get very close.


On the matter of image processing, the fine-pitch TVs are likely very much alike, and so posting values for the 2170P-3, 2103-1, and MID5 parameters makes sense. They may even be useful for the HS510 and HS420 sets, but I have no exprience with these.


So should I post (again) the image-processing stuff? What would you like to see?


----------



## notrust

I assumed the fact that geometry settings are unique to each set. I was most interested in the image-processing stuff, not so much to copy them value for value, but to compare them with my current settings to get an idea of what direction to go when trying to optimize my particular settings.


Kentech, it goes without saying (but I'll try anyway) that your work on these service codes has been nothing short of phenomenal. I share your belief that non-professional people can figure this stuff out if we work at it hard enough. You have worked unbelievably hard and then some on this stuff and were also generous enough to take the time to share your findings with the rest of us.


Thanks for all your time and generous contributions to this forum, they are much appreciated!


----------



## daltonlanny

Hi KenTech,

My KD-36XS955 has shown BIG improvements from your tweaks in the imaging processing areas. I have not started on the other areas yet.

I noticed that you changed certain settings quite alot since you started this thread.

Its so long that I just don't have time to read all the way through it.

What I and others would like to see is a quick run down summary of YOUR OWN PERSONAL latest [3-25-06] settings on your KD-36XS955.

I know these tv's do vary greatly and the values are only approximate, but it would still be very informative and interesting to read, especially in such areas as:

SBRT

RDRV

GDRV

BDRV

RCUT

GCUT

UBOF

GAMMA, GAMMS,GAMR,GAMG,GAMB

2103-1, 2170P-3, MID5 PERIMETERS.


On the last posts that I skimmed through last night, you had your CUTS at 43-21-24

SBRT at 29, and DRV values at 41-27-20, GAMMA at 0 in PRO, with GAMR-GAMB at 0-0-1, GAMMA at 1 in MOVIE with GAMR-GAMB at 3-3-4, etc., etc. Are these still accurate as of today?

Thanks a million, KenTech.


----------



## Mathesar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is a lot of variation from tube to tube, and mere mortals attach and align the deflection yoke, focus coils, and permanent magnets. So, sure, the finished TVs vary even more.
> 
> 
> First the CRT sets all have a "hot" center area, and there's nothing that can be done. Sony could have compensated completely for it but didn't.
> 
> 
> However, the picture you posted looks like a beam-landing problem to me, and you should try fixing it. It's one of the first things I did to my own set.
> 
> 
> Read the article *here* .
> 
> 
> If no amount of adjustment fixes a really dark patch at the center-left, you have a cause, I believe, to call out a service tech for a service-warranty adjustment. That is, if *they* can even fix it. If the deflection yoke is mismounted to the CRT, that will be a tough one, since a service tech might be afraid to touch it. You might suggest that it's a "purity" problem, and it might require repositioning of the yoke. But good luck! It may be fixable by you in SM in a jiffy.
> 
> 
> Put up a uniform 50-75% gray or similar screen to see the real extent of the problem. A somewhat hot center is normal. A dark patch only at left-center is not. Use that screen to make your adjustments. The AVIA and DVE DVDs have suitable patterns available.
> 
> 
> BTW, do you have a loudspeaker or other possible magnetic source at the left of the screen? An unshielded speaker too close to the screen can do this.



No unshielded speakers nearby, I tried doing the landing adjustments as described but I couldnt get it to make any differance, when looking at a solid gray screen you can see that the center is brightest and the corners and sides are all slightly darker but its alittle more noticable on the left side,same thing when looking at a Focus pattern ,center is the most focused but left and right are slightly off, with left side being worse.. would a Sony tech even consider these symptoms out of the normal range of operation, or should I just live with it?

Thanks for the replies.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Your just going to have to live with it, it's a CRT thing you know.


After a while once you get used to it you probably won't notice it.


----------



## Zombi 78

BTW, I would really like to say thank you to Ken and everyone else who has contributed to this thread. It has been so very helpful. Again, thank you.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

going to take the pictures now...


----------



## SurfingMatt27

looking foward to it, it would make it easier for us to see what you are seeing as long as you have good lighting to take the picture and such.


----------



## Mathesar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your just going to have to live with it, it's a CRT thing you know.
> 
> 
> After a while once you get used to it you probably won't notice it.



Yea its not that bad really, Only noticable when playing games and actually looking for it, although I would like to get the geometry fixed in the corners sometime (bowing in all 4 corners).. I'll have to see if I can find an ISF around here.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Good luck!


Geometry should be fairly simple to do in the service menu, ask KenTech he should be able to help you out.


About geometry though on CRT's, you can make it acceptible, but it will never be perfect.


----------



## Rasdock

If this sounds familiar, I've asked about it once before in another thread. I still haven't gotten a guess as to what it might be.


On my TV--a 30xs955--I notice two vertical bars a few inches in from both the left and right sides of the screen. They are only really visible against a very bright image, and they appear as slightly brighter bars extending the entire height of the screen. What happens is, when text is scrolling across the screen or the camera pans, the picture seems to curve when it hits those two spots. It's like the entire image dips down and comes back up once it's past those bars. Does that make sense? What could cause something like this, and can it be fixed?


I'm discussing a 16:9 image here, and I believe these bars exist outside of the area of a 4:3 image. So, here's a possible clue: I still get the bars when watching 4:3 material, but they are now moved to within the 4:3 space in a position relative to where they are in a 16:9 image. Could this have something to do with the focus? I really don't even know what I'm talking about with that, so I probably shouldn't throw out guesses. I would like to know if this is something that can be dealt with.


Interestingly, my father has a Loewe CRT, and it has the same issue. So, you'll be helping two people if you can help me.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

 http://photobucket.com/albums/y158/irhxcbcziuzxs/TV/ 


ill leave you to sort through what pics are good and what arent

anyways...

thats with sbrt to 31


----------



## Mathesar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> http://photobucket.com/albums/y158/irhxcbcziuzxs/TV/
> 
> 
> ill leave you to sort through what pics are good and what arent
> 
> anyways...
> 
> thats with sbrt to 31



Hrm SBRT 31 seems high are you having to turn your TV's brightness below 31 to get good black levels?


A lot of the shots are blurred but the ones I can see look normal to me , You need to use a Torch to see through most of that area which is why the guard gives you one early in the game. If the TV were at fault I would think your health / status bar on the bottom would be dark as well, which it isnt. What do you have your TV's brightness set at? and did you try changing the in-game brightness setting?


I checked my SBRT yesterday and it was defaulted at 20, I changed it to 21 (after 21 I started to see the blacks turning gray) and also changed the default UBOF setting for Video 6 (Xbox360) from 1 to 2, with those settings I have my TV set at Brightness 31 , Picture 38 (Standard mode) and have Oblivions in game brightness turned up a few clicks above default and everything looks good, Oblivion is a dark game at times tho and I try to play with as little room lighting as possible during the day.


----------



## ragingd

irhxcbcziuzxs,


Did you also adjust ubof in the service menu?


----------



## SurfingMatt27

You should'nt have to adjust UBOF for that input though, the SBRT should take care of it.You only adjust UBOF to balance the rest of the inputs in black level, not the input you are calibrating.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Heck i'm still fiddling with an SBRT setting of either 28 or 29.


Anybody else using 28? KenTech have you tried 28? or do you prefur 29.just curious that's all since Nightwatchmen seems to prefur 28 and you 29 for an SBRT setting.


Matt~


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

 http://photobucket.com/albums/y158/i...t=IMG_0004.jpg 


see how the cars black blends in with the back ground, this was from page four

the pictures ive seen of oblivion are lighter than that.


i hear that people are having darkness problem with burnout however.. but i dont believe they are that bad.. not sure though


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Your brightness is too low then since the car should stand out from the background not blend in with it.


Have you tried turning the ingame brightness in the game up?


----------



## chrisbooth12

maybe you guys can help me. i have read this thread and i still dont seem to get it much. you can see my original thread here

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...65#post7374665 


so what exactly do i need to change? i am pretty computer savy which is why i am fustrated that i have a hard time understanding this


----------



## SurfingMatt27

You should PM KenTech this info, you probably get more info that way on the exact items to adjust.


Matt~


----------



## Mathesar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> http://photobucket.com/albums/y158/i...t=IMG_0004.jpg
> 
> 
> see how the cars black blends in with the back ground, this was from page four
> 
> the pictures ive seen of oblivion are lighter than that.
> 
> 
> i hear that people are having darkness problem with burnout however.. but i dont believe they are that bad.. not sure though



Hrm it doesn't look quite that dark on my TV but did your camera exaggerate the black crush any? (loss of detail in dark areas) Mine sure did at first ,I had to fiddle with the cameras manual settings in order to make the subtle dark blue highlights on the wall show up in my shots (I could easily see the blue in person), I also had to crank up my TV's brightness to 40 (burnout doesnt have it's own brightness adjustment) but luckily the black levels didn't suffer.


I tried the same test on my PC CRT (Sony FW900) with my 360 connected via VGA cable and the results were pretty close ,The FW900 does reveal more shadow detail but Im not sure if we can get our XBR960's to the same level in this area or not (without sacrificing black levels) , VGA is known to be brighter than component when it comes to Xbox360 so that might be the whole reason for the added detail.


IMO Burnout is just dark game at times, Period ..as well as other Xbox360 games,It seems like 360's Component output is tweaked for inherently brighter TV's such as LCDs. I havent noticed this problem with my other consoles (gamecube / ps2 / xbox 1)


I guess whats making matters worse is the fact Sony CRTs are known to crush blacks out of the box.


Heres a link to the pics: Click


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

Could be you need to adjust the BLK setting in section 2170P-4 (it's right after the GAMM settings), it's hard to decide what to set this at. You can tell a big differenece in having it set to 1 as opposed to it being set at 3, I think at the least it should be at 1 to avoid the image looking washed out. I also have a 360 and Oblivion, also it depends on what scan mode you're playing the game in. 1080i seems to be a bit darker than 720p, so try playing around with that as well. Best bet is that your BLK setting is probably at 3, causing the black crush try lowering to 2 or 1.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

What's your SBRT setting at? try 29 instead since it's a good compromise between shadow detail and black level.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your brightness is too low then since the car should stand out from the background not blend in with it.
> 
> 
> Have you tried turning the ingame brightness in the game up?



there is no in game brightness.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hrm it doesn't look quite that dark on my TV but did your camera exaggerate the black crush any? (loss of detail in dark areas) Mine sure did at first ,I had to fiddle with the cameras manual settings in order to make the subtle dark blue highlights on the wall show up in my shots (I could easily see the blue in person), I also had to crank up my TV's brightness to 40 (burnout doesnt have it's own brightness adjustment) but luckily the black levels didn't suffer.
> 
> 
> I tried the same test on my PC CRT (Sony FW900) with my 360 connected via VGA cable and the results were pretty close ,The FW900 does reveal more shadow detail but Im not sure if we can get our XBR960's to the same level in this area or not (without sacrificing black levels) , VGA is known to be brighter than component when it comes to Xbox360 so that might be the whole reason for the added detail.
> 
> 
> IMO Burnout is just dark game at times, Period ..as well as other Xbox360 games,It seems like 360's Component output is tweaked for inherently brighter TV's such as LCDs. I havent noticed this problem with my other consoles (gamecube / ps2 / xbox 1)
> 
> 
> I guess whats making matters worse is the fact Sony CRTs are known to crush blacks out of the box.
> 
> 
> Heres a link to the pics: Click



its close though, do you have parts on the map where you cant see anything at all? look through my other last few pages for more burnout pics, see back a page...

i dont believe the camera made it anyworse, its how it looks on my tv, my blacks seem darker than yours, but yours seem to crush as well.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What's your SBRT setting at? try 29 instead since it's a good compromise between shadow detail and black level.



SBRT is 31


----------



## morphy666

I will second or third the request for a reprint of the common service menu items that can be tweaked.


I'm about to do my 34XS955. I've gone through this thread and written a lot down, but it's a jumbled mess. A nice clean post of values would be cool.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Maybe it's possible you have a bad set of component cables? It could be..you know it's not uncommon to have cables that are faulty right out of the box.


Why don't you buy another pair from a good place with a good return policy, and if you don't see an improvement then you can take the cables back and get a full refund.


what do you got to lose?


Also the game could be dark intentionatly, i'm not sure since i don't own an xbox360 yet but when i do i'll post pics too and compare it to yours and see if your tv really does have a problem.


----------



## KenTech

*BY REQUEST, A FEW CURRENT SETTINGS*


I've decided to respond to this PM publicly, since some of these values might answer questions for other folks as well. Please heed my warning *here* .


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *daltonlanny (via PM)* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The settings I am most interested in are:



SHAP, SHFO, PREO, SSMD, PPHA = See posts #1137 and #1168. Some of these must be "tuned" for your TV.


YOF = as delivered. Recommend not tinkering with this.

CBOF = depends on input and video mode (see data chart).

Personal examples of YOF-CBOF-CROF:

1080i from tuner = 7-50-51. 720p from tuner = 7-51-52. 480i (digital) = 15-44-42.


SBRT = 29

RDRV = 43, GDRV = 28, BDRV = 23

RCUT = 46, GCUT = 21, BCUT = 18

The charts that make this easier to comprehend are in post #892. Further details are in post #896.


UBOF = Depends on input. I set all video modes the same. Ranges from 3 (a JVC VCR via S-video) to 5 (HD tuner). RF/480i is 4 (analog cable). 1 increment here = 2 or 3 clicks of SBRT.


SYSM = Not relevant without considering whole image-processig group of 2170P-3 and MID5. See post #1138 for personal examples.


VM SETTINGS = See post #1171.


RYR,RYB,GYR,GYB = 14-14-6-4. Good compromise among the different inputs, using both DVD calibration disks over V5 and the built-in test patterns.


GAMMA,GAMS,GAMR,GAMG,GAMB:

I have set gamma to max for all picture modes, except Movie, which I turn to when program material is too murky and dark for my tastes. The settings are:

GAMM = 0 for all inputs and picture modes, except Movie.

GAMM = 1 for Movie for all inputs.

Then, for GAMM = 0, GAMS,GAMR,GAMG,GAMB = 0-0-0-0

For GAMM = 1, GAMS,GAMR,GAMG,GAMB = 0-3-3-3

You can increase the gamma reduction for Movie (lightening mid-tones) by changing GAMR~GAMB to 4 or 5. Leave GAMS = 0. Remember that increasing GAMR~GAMB decreases display gamma, lightening mid-tones relative to black and white.


BLK = 0 for all picture modes and all video modes. This removes *all* automatic black-level and contrast manipulation by the TV. You could confine it to one picture mode, if you wish. I have no use for it for anything.


RELATED: With BLK set to 0, go to 2103-1 #24 and 25 (ATPD and DCTR), and set them to 0.


I hope this helps.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What's your SBRT setting at? try 29 instead since it's a good compromise between shadow detail and black level.



This is only for *your* TV, Matt. There is no "correct" setting for SRBT. You can advise that someone "increase SBRT by a couple clicks" or similar, but specifying an exact number is pointless. There are many combinations of SBRT and _CUT that are all perfectly satisfactory. It's *changes* to these parameters that matter.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could be you need to adjust the BLK setting in section 2170P-4 (it's right after the GAMM settings), it's hard to decide what to set this at. You can tell a big differenece in having it set to 1 as opposed to it being set at 3, I think at the least it should be at 1 to avoid the image looking washed out. I also have a 360 and Oblivion, also it depends on what scan mode you're playing the game in. 1080i seems to be a bit darker than 720p, so try playing around with that as well. Best bet is that your BLK setting is probably at 3, causing the black crush try lowering to 2 or 1.



anyone else reccomend this


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe it's possible you have a bad set of component cables? It could be..you know it's not uncommon to have cables that are faulty right out of the box.
> 
> 
> Why don't you buy another pair from a good place with a good return policy, and if you don't see an improvement then you can take the cables back and get a full refund.
> 
> 
> what do you got to lose?
> 
> 
> Also the game could be dark intentionatly, i'm not sure since i don't own an xbox360 yet but when i do i'll post pics too and compare it to yours and see if your tv really does have a problem.



it is only on my xbox, tv.. ps2.. all fine. I think, maybe i just think they are ok.. im going to go through dve again.. i did it with sliders last time


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is only for *your* TV, Matt. There is no "correct" setting for SRBT. You can advise that someone "increase SBRT by a couple clicks" or similar, but specifying an exact number is pointless. There are many combinations of SBRT and _CUT that are all perfectly satisfactory. It's *changes* to these parameters that matter.



Thanks i settled on 29 last night, 28 seemed a bit on the darker side but 29 seems to be more better and pleasing to the eye, it really gives you that 3-D look and makes images POP off the screen.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could be you need to adjust the BLK setting in section 2170P-4 (it's right after the GAMM settings), it's hard to decide what to set this at.



At anything above 0, BLK enables automatic black level and/or automatic contrast ("Dynamic Picture"). BLK=0 disables it. In addiotion to that, with BLK set to 0, go to 2103-1 #24 and 25 (ATPD and DCTR), and set them also to 0. If you want black level and contrast to be solely under your control with the Brightness and Picture settings, set BLK to zero, as above.


----------



## RWetmore

I noticed recently that when I turn on my 30XS955, everthing is red for second or two, then corrects itself. It never did this before. Should I be worried that a problem is developing? Glitches like this worry me, especially since this set cannot be replaced (at least for much longer).


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I noticed recently that when I turn on my 30XS955, everthing is red for second or two, then corrects itself. It never did this before.



Are you sure it just started doing this? Whether you notice it will depend on what the program material is when it first comes on.


My set is completely weird for the first 2-3 seconds, too bright, blurry, high black level -- then it calms down and is perfectly watchable after a minute or so. A restart after 15-20 minutes guarantees a new warm "lock-in."


When the CRT's heaters first come on and the various control voltages haven't settled down yet, it's RGB anarchy! I presume it's okay after a few minutes, right?


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> At anything above 0, BLK enables automatic black level and/or automatic contrast ("Dynamic Picture"). BLK=0 disables it. In addiotion to that, with BLK set to 0, go to 2103-1 #24 and 25 (ATPD and DCTR), and set them also to 0. If you want black level and contrast to be solely under your control with the Brightness and Picture settings, set BLK to zero, as above.



I totally agree when it comes to different viewing material, but when it comes to gaming BLK at 0 can look washed out at times.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I totally agree when it comes to different viewing material, but when it comes to gaming BLK at 0 can look washed out at times.



But then you can probably fix this in 2170P-3: UBOF for black level, UCOF for color intensity, and (if needed) UHOF for hue. A separate value will be stored for your gaming if it's a separate video mode from the others, and one value per picture mode, too.


----------



## daltonlanny

Thank you KenTech!

You are the man!

This makes everything so much easier and up to date, without have to dig back through all those posts.

Great job!

Lanny


----------



## notrust

Here's a rather obvious (or maybe not so obvious) fix for black crush. Just drop the contrast down 5 or so clicks, or until the picture appears too dark. Then increase brightness by roughly the same number of clicks. DON'T do this in the service menu, just use one of the picture modes.


By doing this I was able to bring out a lot of detail in dark areas (like dark suits) that were previously getting crushed. It might be worth a try if some particular game is too dark to be playable.


And yeah, I know this messes up the proper black and white levels, and probably other settings as well. The picture appears "flatter" after you do this. But it does bring out more detail in dark areas where there was none before.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you sure it just started doing this? Whether you notice it will depend on what the program material is when it first comes on.



I'm sure it just started doing it. I have tried it with no programming connected, and it still does it.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My set is completely weird for the first 2-3 seconds, too bright, blurry, high black level -- then it calms down and is perfectly watchable after a minute or so. A restart after 15-20 minutes guarantees a new warm "lock-in."
> 
> 
> When the CRT's heaters first come on and the various control voltages haven't settled down yet, it's RGB anarchy! I presume it's okay after a few minutes, right?



Actually, it's OK just after a second or two. It's almost as if there seems to be a delay for Green and Blue guns to come on....the red gun starts up a second or two before the others maybe??? Weird.


----------



## Napoleon D

Ken,


I went through and gave your settings another look with my 57" RP CRT display. My ISF technician has already calibrated grayscale perfectly. However for color-decoding I changed over from 13-15-5-3 (what he thought was best) to 14-14-6-4. This is not what i officially calibrated it to, this was just a personal alternative to something so closely pinpointed to begin with. The latter settings resembles the colors of film the closest for me. Every film does have a different pallate i understand, but there is still that uniform balance of colors recognizeable in every color film.


Just to give you feedback on your sharp settings for my type of set: I went through and tried out your VM/Mide settings for my display, again. I have always been under the impression that minimum to zero mide/VM is best - leaving "sharpness" to do the job alone. Everything else just happens to match the other settings you (and others) have - PROV, LTMD etc. I leave black-level/grayscale alone, since the calibrator set all that perfectly, and I don't have the resources anyway to properly adjust all of those interrelated settings.


Getting things just right on a 57" screen (sitting 9 feet away) is more of a challenge since the screen takes up so much of your sight. Not only do you want the screen to look "right," but you need it to look right for your eyes as well (again, a very big screen).


480P is what I'm most interested in since that's what i mostly watch at this point. For my display, PREO, SHAP etc. are included in the 480P/component image. I'm not sure why, but i just assume that different displays have different outcomes. I set SHAP to either 0 or 1, leaving PREO and SHOF at zero (turning these on literally hurt my eyes).


For SYSM-2, I mimicked the "480i" settings you included Ken - including the exact MIDE column and VM settings. The results truly create an amazing picture, especially with the Froudja-chip/XP-30 I have. In my opinion the image rivals various plasma screens I have seen. I then tried this all out switching over to the SYSM-3 patterns, and as you've stated on many occassions, the difference is VERY subtle.


Again, the most important aspect on screens this large, to me, is getting the image at a comfortable level for you to see. But I imagine that getting sharpness "correct" without ringing/overshoot should mirror the above concern. Too much VM etc. not only doesn't look right, but also does a number on your eyes. But just the right amount (Ken's setting) seems to be just at the right level. My calibrator already did a hell of a job with the focus, as you can actually make out the scan lines the image is so tight.


He described how he set the brightness about a touch above a typical movie screen, as 2 x screen-width viewing distance calls for the need for a brighter screen. Gammas, in an effort to balance the grayscale were set on 1 and 3 for GAMG and GAMB respectively. But I digress....


My main focus (so to speak) is to make this display resemble an actual movie screen in its compatibility with vision. I think the main difference between theater/proj. screens and my display, is that my screen has a sweet spot - meaning the picture will be most intense/bright from the middle, as opposed to uniform all around. The image actually is much more comfortable to view when you're somewhat off of the sweet spot, but this really should not have to be like this. I leave contrast centered, as it really doesn't have much effect on the pictures overall intensity as you raise and lower it. Other settings seem to affect the image's overall intensity more so than contrast/picture. I understand "intensity" isn't a technical word, but it's all i have to describe how i perceive the image.


My display has been reviewed as a particularly good model. The image is one of the best I've seen for CRT. It is exceptionally clear, and VERY well-focused now. I would almost say that I find the image to be too clear. This is one of the reasons why such a clear and vibrant image has the potential to give your eyes such a workout, and it's been a challenge working with that.


Again, my black levels and color are set by ISF, and I don't plan on changing these. I seem to prefer the SYSM-2 more, and would need to use those accompanying values. I will experiment more with these. On first glance, it does look good, but it will need some getting used to. It seems that so many well-informed people here recomend that this is a good method for sharpness, that i should give them some belief. As long as true source details isn't being "covered up" then I think it's worth trying out more.


----------



## KenTech

Napoleon, I appreciate the extensive feedback your whole message. Who knew that so much applicable to my direct-view set would apply to a rear-projection set?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My display has been reviewed as a particularly good model. The image is one of the best I've seen for CRT. It is exceptionally clear, and VERY well-focused now. I would almost say that I find the image to be too clear. This is one of the reasons why such a clear and vibrant image has the potential to give your eyes such a workout, and it's been a challenge working with that.



I confess I don't quite understand this. The ultimate in clarity would be _reality_, and I don't think of that as a "challenge." When I look an amazing, well-broadcast picture, and I have the set properly adjusted for it, my eyes say that is approaching reality in its crdebility -- I can see fabric and skin texture, for example, not obvious in *lots* of broadcast program material and a goodly number of DVDs. My eyes _like_ it indefinitely!


On the other hand, if I exaggerate sharpness, I find myself seduced into liking it for a short time, and then it looks false after a while. The word "scratchy" comes to mind. This works for a second-rate SD local-news program, say, viewed from far away, since it fools the eye into thinking it's almost right. But for really good program material, the "pleasures" of oversharpening are short-lived, and I go for more conservative settings.


This is why I have gravitated to the SYSM=3 settings I have listed: they seem, properly tuned, more realistic.


Please don't neglect the potential role of the MID5 filters, as they can accomplish things not possible with the Sharpness control and the settings in 2170P-3. Most notably, MHYE with values of 1-7 (with MHYL=3, MHYO=0) enhances _only_ the _very finest_ details and textures in HD and fine DVD sources, and you should consider watching a high-quality source while experimenting a bit. At some setting, you might find you achieve a "balance" with other available sharpness enhancements that is very symbiotic. Nothing else replaces the MHYE filter. (But if MHYO=1, its scope of action starts to creep downward into the video frequencies and coarser details also affected by other filters, such as 2170P-3/SHF0 and SYSM=2 + the Sharpness slider. Nonetheless, I find it indispensable for SD broadcast.)


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But then you can probably fix this in 2170P-3: UBOF for black level, UCOF for color intensity, and (if needed) UHOF for hue. A separate value will be stored for your gaming if it's a separate video mode from the others, and one value per picture mode, too.



That does make sense, and I played a game of Oblivion last night with BLK at 0 and it looked pretty good. One question is what Gamma settings do you recommend? I was maxing all mine out by setting GAMM=3 GAMS=8 and GAMR, GAMG and GAMB at 15 (it was at default 12, but I noticed that when maxed out the images have more dimension it seems to me anyway), the reason I was maxing out was because I had set UBOF to 3 so it didn't look washed out. If I change UCOF and UHOF in the service menu, will I also have to readjust the color and hue settings in the user menu using the Avia and or DVE DVD?


Now that I have sat back and looked at it the BLK at 0 does make sense, I think it looked washed out before because I had UBOF maxed out at one time. If I do adjust the UCOF and UHOF how should I go about doing it?


----------



## Zombi 78

Sorry if I am being a nusence, but I have a question. When I have a crosshatch pattern on my tv the vertical lines are close together in the middle and get further apart towards the sides.


I have pulled in as much of the over scan as possible. I just want to know if there is a way to expand the middle or something to even out the lines without losing any of the picture on the sides. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Zombi 78* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I have a crosshatch pattern on my tv the vertical lines are close together in the middle and get further apart towards the sides. I have pulled in as much of the over scan as possible. I just want to know if there is a way to expand the middle or something to even out the lines without losing any of the picture on the sides.



Yes. I recently corrected this problem for myself. Go into service mode, and adjust 2170D-2 #3, SLIN. You may have to touch up overscan and centering a little with HSIZ and HPOS.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One question is what Gamma settings do you recommend? I was maxing all mine out by setting GAMM=3 GAMS=8 and GAMR, GAMG and GAMB at 15 (it was at default 12, but I noticed that when maxed out the images have more dimension it seems to me anyway), the reason I was maxing out was because I had set UBOF to 3 so it didn't look washed out. If I change UCOF and UHOF in the service menu, will I also have to readjust the color and hue settings in the user menu using the Avia and or DVE DVD?



See message #1302, above. Your "maxing out" of gamma is a bad idea, and it won't fix a "washed out" look the right way. It results in a way-screwy gamma on the screen (very low).


UBOF, UHOF, and UCOF *add* to the Brightness (black level), Hue, and Color settings in the user menu, but they can be set _per video mode and picture mode_. Leave the user-menu settings alone at your usual positions for normal TV viewing, and use UBOF, UHOF (probably not useful), and UCOF (more useful) to get the "look" you want when your user-menu settings are in their normal positions and you switch to gaming. Make sure that your gaming device isn't using one of the inputs also used by another device, or you will screw up the color for that device too. Example: You have a DVD player plugged into V5 (component) and your gamer plugged into V6 (also component). There's only *one* 2170P-3 settings for those two inputs together per picture mode (Vivid, Movie, etc.)


I don't use my TV for gaming, so I can't say anything more specific.


----------



## Zombi 78

Wow, you tackled my problem with only 2 sentences. Amazing.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Like Emeril would say:..."BAM"


----------



## Myke256

Does anyone have any High Definition test patterns for Black/White levels? I have DVE but can only calibrate at 480p.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Myke256* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any High Definition test patterns for Black/White levels? I have DVE but can only calibrate at 480p.



You can use a HD broadcast that has dark content. Jay Leno/David Letterman, wearing a black/dark suit would work. Freeze the picture and adjust brightness up and down to see where the dark detail is best. Brightness up and you will see all the detail in the broadcast (some detail is missing from the source), reduce brightness till the darkest detail is just visible. This is best done using scenes with some bright areas in the picture too. If done with a low APL (very dark scene), you run the risk of setting brightness too low and loose some dark detail in higher APL scenes.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Myke256* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any High Definition test patterns for Black/White levels? I have DVE but can only calibrate at 480p.



IF you are interested in going into service mode, there are excellent test patterns there. Glen's advice is just fine. If you want to be more wirehead about this, here is a partial repost of the original information from way earlier in this thread. There is a fine grayscale step-scale pattern, but its format may not be the best for judging deepest blacks. I'd go with Glen's advice.


***************

THis doesn't appear in any service manual I have seen. Enter service mode, and step *backwards* with the 5 key to see these groups. My 36XS955 has the service-menu group called "QM." It comes up in blue, not green, and AFAIK the values are never saved. Further, 0 - Enter reloads everything and kills the patterns, rather that your having to run the PATN count down to 0 before exiting. So does power-off.


Fair warning: Turn your sound down to zero before going for any patterns; a loud audio test tone is part of this. When you are showing one of the patterns, you lose ability to change picture modes and a couple of other things. Further, you have to return to QM/PATN and run the value back down to 0 to get the patterns to disappear. A bit tedious, but I'm not complaining about having built-in HD patterns!


#0 - INFO (values 0-7) has 7 screens of information about what is going on in the set. Nerds, rejoice!


#1 - PATN (values 0-80) has four groups of 12 patterns, both color and b/w, including a couple of amazing frequency sweeps, color bars, grayscale steps, crosshatch patterns, etc. Each pattern is at value 20*n + p, where n is 0-3 for the video-mode group (see below), and p is 1-12 for the pattern. (The remaining values are pure-white screens.) I used the top=blue, bottom=gray screen for adjusting the color intensity for the different video modes represented, especially HD.


The groups on my set are for 1080i, 480i, 480p, and 720p, in that order.


#2 - GPTN (values 0-12) are 11 different patterns of a decidedly different type on only the upper 70%of my screen, no matter the scan rate. Some are translucent. I don't know their specific purpose.


QM has more codes, but I haven't discovered anything about them yet.


The test patterns are inserted into the video channel *ahead* of all picture adjustments in 2170P-3 and MID5, so they can be used for evaluating these settings. I value the crosshatch patterns, but some of the others I will probably just look at for fun, as we don't know what pathway they take thru the long processing chain. I wonder what the sweep frequency extremes are for the #8 patterns in each group. Unfortunately the highest video frequencies are positioned at the right edge of the screen, where the horizintal focus is the worst!


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> See message #1302, above. Your "maxing out" of gamma is a bad idea, and it won't fix a "washed out" look the right way. It results in a way-screwy gamma on the screen (very low).
> 
> 
> UBOF, UHOF, and UCOF *add* to the Brightness (black level), Hue, and Color settings in the user menu, but they can be set _per video mode and picture mode_. Leave the user-menu settings alone at your usual positions for normal TV viewing, and use UBOF, UHOF (probably not useful), and UCOF (more useful) to get the "look" you want when your user-menu settings are in their normal positions and you switch to gaming. Make sure that your gaming device isn't using one of the inputs also used by another device, or you will screw up the color for that device too. Example: You have a DVD player plugged into V5 (component) and your gamer plugged into V6 (also component). There's only *one* 2170P-3 settings for those two inputs together per picture mode (Vivid, Movie, etc.)
> 
> 
> I don't use my TV for gaming, so I can't say anything more specific.



I think I get the jest of what you're saying, what should I set the gamma settings for then? Everything else you've suggested has worked pretty well







. So if I understand correctly, adjusting the UCOF setting will not have a drastic effect as far as the color settings adjusted using the Avia DVD (in other words all the changes I made in the user menu to adjust for proper color, and the ones I made in the service menu to correct for any red push will not have to be corrected.) Am I understanding right? Or am I like way off in right field somewhere?


I have my Xbox 360 on V5 and my PS2 on V6 and I have a Toshiba DVD player on V7 (HDMI)


----------



## TwinTurboZX




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No unshielded speakers nearby, I tried doing the landing adjustments as described but I couldnt get it to make any differance, when looking at a solid gray screen you can see that the center is brightest and the corners and sides are all slightly darker but its alittle more noticable on the left side,same thing when looking at a Focus pattern ,center is the most focused but left and right are slightly off, with left side being worse.. would a Sony tech even consider these symptoms out of the normal range of operation, or should I just live with it?
> 
> Thanks for the replies.



I'm having the same issue as Mathesar, I first noticed it when I hooked up my PC to XBR with HDMI. The left side of the screen up to an inch inward is either slightly darker or blurry which causes text and windows to lose focus when moved to the side. I was reading about the LANDING adjustments but could this be caused by the HDMI cable or DVI adapter or is that not possible? It's weird because it's not really noticeable when watching HD or SD, but as soon as you go to PC HDMI it's there. Also, could this be input dependent or is it safe to assume all video inputs exhibit this behavior. Thanks for any response.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

So, ok.. before i try nick's settings..

the only thing i want to fix is the black crush...

sbrt = 31


sliders

----

picture = 40

brightness 25


i got those from using dve, the picture one is probably not right.. because the picture setting, no matter where i had it i didnt see any of the so called lines moving, didnt see what they wanted me to see for there sharpness settings either so


sharpness = min

mode = pro

color = 31

hue = 0

color temp = neutral

clearedge vm = off


Can someone explain in better detail how to do this dve thing, as apparently im not getting it, is it because i did the dve with the sliders? should that make a difference

am i getting black crush because my ubof is set to 3 (default?).... you all seen my pictures... I got out of the first dungeon, and i really should go back and take pictures of the sewers, even with my torch i couldnt see 5 feen in front of me there....

outside, i wandered and.. it was coming on night time in oblivion, and again.. i needed a torch to see.... i know this isnt right...

something is wrong...


I think going with nicks settings would help, but i only want to fix the darkness problems at the moment, then tackle other things so id be changing alot of settings for no reason for me right now, cause im happy with everything else.. movies look fine, tv looks fine , (yes, movies on my 360, so it wouldnt be a componant cable problem i dont think)


also wanted to mention in those pictures, the in game brightness was almost to the top

haha, this is a good one, i put brightness to the center , in game brightness, not too much of a diff , but some... and then i was wondering around not being able to see where im going, and then... it became night, and i have a pitch black screen, so i up my torch.. and basically still a pitch black screen :-D just the glow of my torch not ligthing up anything but less than stuff a foot away

there for, my game is unplayable... hoorah...

sorry, didnt mean to make that into 3 seperate posts


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...Can someone explain in better detail how to do this dve thing,...



Go to this link - it has a short course for both Avia and DVE:

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/V...tion.html#avia


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

i moved up the brightness in game to where i could sorta see at night, now during the day everything is washed out, ridiculous


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So, ok.. before i try nick's settings..
> 
> the only thing i want to fix is the black crush...
> 
> sbrt = 31
> 
> 
> sliders
> 
> ----
> 
> picture = 40
> 
> brightness 25
> 
> 
> i got those from using dve, the picture one is probably not right.. because the picture setting, no matter where i had it i didnt see any of the so called lines moving, didnt see what they wanted me to see for there sharpness settings either so
> 
> 
> sharpness = min
> 
> mode = pro
> 
> color = 31
> 
> hue = 0
> 
> color temp = neutral
> 
> clearedge vm = off
> 
> 
> Can someone explain in better detail how to do this dve thing, as apparently im not getting it, is it because i did the dve with the sliders? should that make a difference
> 
> am i getting black crush because my ubof is set to 3 (default?).... you all seen my pictures... I got out of the first dungeon, and i really should go back and take pictures of the sewers, even with my torch i couldnt see 5 feen in front of me there....
> 
> outside, i wandered and.. it was coming on night time in oblivion, and again.. i needed a torch to see.... i know this isnt right...
> 
> something is wrong...
> 
> 
> I think going with nicks settings would help, but i only want to fix the darkness problems at the moment, then tackle other things so id be changing alot of settings for no reason for me right now, cause im happy with everything else.. movies look fine, tv looks fine , (yes, movies on my 360, so it wouldnt be a componant cable problem i dont think)
> 
> 
> also wanted to mention in those pictures, the in game brightness was almost to the top
> 
> haha, this is a good one, i put brightness to the center , in game brightness, not too much of a diff , but some... and then i was wondering around not being able to see where im going, and then... it became night, and i have a pitch black screen, so i up my torch.. and basically still a pitch black screen :-D just the glow of my torch not ligthing up anything but less than stuff a foot away
> 
> there for, my game is unplayable... hoorah...
> 
> sorry, didnt mean to make that into 3 seperate posts



First thing you should do for gaming purposes (or atleast from what I have experienced) is to leave the picture and brightness settings right at the middle at around 31 or 32 (the default for Pro mode is 32). SBRT sounds about right I have mine set at 28, and UBOF at 3 and UCOF at 5 (the reason I have UCOF set so high is because I have BLK set at 0 and I also lowered my color slider in the user menu using the Avia DVD). I know what KenTech said about the GAMM setting, but in my humble opinion; as far as gaming goes; I have GAMM set at 3 GAMS at 8 and GAMR GAMG GAMB all at 12 (lowered from 15 where I originally had them, back to the default level of 12).


Also for gaming purposes you are best served having Clearedge VM set at high (note I said for gaming purposes, because of the fact that in gaming you want edge enhancement it makes the images appear even more crisp and 3Dish while gaming). I also have the temp set at cool (that's a personal preference). Give some of what I said a try, especially the VM thing. Those settings should make your game look a lot better, it did for me at least.


Oh yeah almost forgot, this is in Pro mode just incase you were wondering.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

I really don't understand your posts irhxcbcziuzxs, With those settings you have it should'nt be dark at all,Though may i make a suggestion....Turn SBRT to 29 instead it will get rid of that washed out look.


Also i'm beginning to think that the game is dark intentionaly,bear in mind i don't own an xbox360 yet so i can't really go in to detail but by the looks of it, it looks the game maybe dark intentionally to give the game a certain look.Or maybe you got a bad copy of the game?


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

having a pitch black screen at night normal? no. having a pitch black screen at night with a torch normal. no. not being able to see where im going on some burnout maps normal... maybe. I should have only clicked up the brightness in game like two notches, but i am now 2 notches from the top..i play in a pitch black room at night now too


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I really don't understand your posts irhxcbcziuzxs, With those settings you have it should'nt be dark at all,Though may i make a suggestion....Turn SBRT to 29 instead it will get rid of that washed out look.
> 
> 
> Also i'm beginning to think that the game is dark intentionaly,bear in mind i don't own an xbox360 yet so i can't really go in to detail but by the looks of it, it looks the game maybe dark intentionally to give the game a certain look.Or maybe you got a bad copy of the game?



Most of the 360 games are just naturally dark on CRT monitors, because the developers mostly used LCD screens when testing and developing the game. LCD screens have a higher natural contrast and brightness ratio than CRTs, hence the games looking dark on the CRT. For instance if you were to have possibly played Perfect Dark Zero, you might have noticed that in the options menu of that game where you can change the brightness there is another option asking what kind of screen you are using. It has LCD, DLP, Plasma, and CRT and whenever you select a different screen type the in-game brightness bar automatically (you can also do it manually) recalibrates itself for whatever screen setting you set it to.


irhxcbcziuzxs, you should really read my post above it might help to solve your problem cause from what you're saying I think your BLK in 2107P-4 is set at 3 which would explain why it is so dark. Below is what I would try if I were you:


Picture = 40 (put this up a bit so you won't have to overcompensate with the gamma settings like I have been)

Brightness = 31


2170P-1

SBRT = 28* (anywhere from 28 to 31 is pretty good)


2170P-3

UBOF = 3* (anywhere between 3 and 5 should be fine)

UCOF = 5 ( to make up for the BLK setting being at 0 so the game won't look washed out, anywhere between 3 and 5 is good here also I personally like 5)


2170P-4

BLK = 0

GAMM = 2* (I think this is a good compromise between 1 and 3, and I'm happy with how my games look)


I edited this cause I had to go back and change a few things that were bothering me about my gameplay, I lowered SBRT to 28 and UBOF to 3 because whenever there was text on a black background you could see a line in which the text was on strectching across the whole screen, meaning my black level was not right. I changed GAMM to 2 because GAMM = 1 just did not make the images jump out enough and GAMM = 3 even though I liked it tended to make things too bright. I might go back to GAMM = 3 but for now I will try 2. Once again these settings are in pro mode and are set for my gaming needs.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> having a pitch black screen at night normal? no. having a pitch black screen at night with a torch normal. no. not being able to see where im going on some burnout maps normal... maybe. I should have only clicked up the brightness in game like two notches, but i am now 2 notches from the top..i play in a pitch black room at night now too



I'm gonna tell you the truth, if the game is that dark and your BLK setting is at 0 (which you might have already done) then you need to up the GAMM setting. I know that KenTech said the GAMM setting being maxed out was a bad idea, but he also said he was not a gamer so no disrespect intended (Lord knows your posts in this thread have helped me very much) but if you're a gamer you want this setting maxed (maybe not all the way up to 15 for the GAMR GAMG and GAMB settings, but by atleast setting GAMM to 3 where the default levels would be 12 instead of 15). I've tried every GAMM setting and I feel the most comfortable with GAMM = 3, give it a try and you'll see what I mean. If that doesn't make the in-game lighting better then next check the UBOF setting and see if it needs to be raised a bit.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

as i was going through my video channels, the green lettering for the service menu was alot brighter on every other video input... odd

anyways.. heres what i just changed


sbrt = 31

ubof = 3

ucof = 5

gamm = 2


the defaults on the tv for all of those were

sbrt = 22

ubof = 2

ucof = 0

gamm = 0

blk = 0


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

sigh, didnt help...

it seems like everything ive done has only helped with colors

i walked into a building in oblivion and had half of a black screen


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> sigh, didnt help...
> 
> it seems like everything ive done has only helped with colors
> 
> i walked into a building in oblivion and had half of a black screen



Are you using pro mode? Cause I have just started to realize that gaming is a lot brighter and vivid in ironically enough vivid mode, just use the same settings there and bump GAMM up to 3 (*edit nevermind it is already defaulted at 3, just make sure to move BLK to 0). You also might have to come up on the UBOF a couple levels if you're still having trouble. Or maybe for you set (since no two TVs seem to be the same) the SBRT level needs to be higher. Let me know what happens cause I really want to help you be able to truly enjoy the splender that is Oblivion.


----------



## Mathesar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> sigh, didnt help...
> 
> it seems like everything ive done has only helped with colors
> 
> i walked into a building in oblivion and had half of a black screen



Forgive me for asking but just in case.. You do know you have to make these service menu adjustments with the Xbox360 powered on right? Otherwise it will only be changing the settings for 480 mode. (other than SBRT which is global).


Last time I made adjustments I did it at night using Oblivion while my character was standing in a semi dark cave (but not pitch black), Any adjustments I made were immediately noticeable even just going from SBRT 21 to 22 ,I guess what I'm saying is you should be able to fix your problem by making adjustments in a dark area of the game. Ive been using 720P lately as it seems to be slightly brighter by default and the sharpness seems 'just right' with Clearedge VM set on Low, I would normaly steer clear of VM but have to admit it doesn't look bad with 720p & videogames (on Low at least).


I also use Standard mode , Pro mode is just to dark and lacks the needed contrast for video games IMO. I havent tried VIVID mode as suggested by Romeo.


----------



## williamtassone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> as i was going through my video channels, the green lettering for the service menu was alot brighter on every other video input...



That to me suggests that there is nothing inherently wrong with your TV, least of all the electron guns. I have a gut feeling if you guys persevere we can get your black levels and brightness spot on for the appropriate channel.


Now if I can just grab your name....










I presume you've plugged your XBOX360 into another CRT monitor to see if the console itself is not to blame??


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Forgive me for asking but just in case.. You do know you have to make these service menu adjustments with the Xbox360 powered on right? Otherwise it will only be changing the settings for 480 mode. (other than SBRT which is global).
> 
> 
> Last time I made adjustments I did it at night using Oblivion while my character was standing in a semi dark cave (but not pitch black), Any adjustments I made were immediately noticeable even just going from SBRT 21 to 22 ,I guess what I'm saying is you should be able to fix your problem by making adjustments in a dark area of the game. Ive been using 720P lately as it seems to be slightly brighter by default and the sharpness seems 'just right' with Clearedge VM set on Low, I would normaly steer clear of VM but have to admit it doesn't look bad with 720p & videogames (on Low at least).
> 
> 
> I also use Standard mode , Pro mode is just to dark and lacks the needed contrast for video games IMO. I havent tried VIVID mode as suggested by Romeo.



You might be on to something here, I never even took that possibility into mind. The only thing I will disagree with you on is the VM thing (I too once hated the idea of setting mine to high, I even tried to make myself think it looked terrible). In my opinion it looks better on high when it comes to gaming, but it did take a while for my eyes to accept it. I do respect your opinion on it though.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Forgive me for asking but just in case.. You do know you have to make these service menu adjustments with the Xbox360 powered on right? Otherwise it will only be changing the settings for 480 mode. (other than SBRT which is global).
> 
> 
> Last time I made adjustments I did it at night using Oblivion while my character was standing in a semi dark cave (but not pitch black), Any adjustments I made were immediately noticeable even just going from SBRT 21 to 22 ,I guess what I'm saying is you should be able to fix your problem by making adjustments in a dark area of the game. Ive been using 720P lately as it seems to be slightly brighter by default and the sharpness seems 'just right' with Clearedge VM set on Low, I would normaly steer clear of VM but have to admit it doesn't look bad with 720p & videogames (on Low at least).
> 
> 
> I also use Standard mode , Pro mode is just to dark and lacks the needed contrast for video games IMO. I havent tried VIVID mode as suggested by Romeo.



if this is true, well.. then, i guess i have to power on my 360


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

Yep, everything is unchanged in 1080i, except for SBRT

here is where everything is at. These are all defaults for 1080i


1080i

----------


2170P-1 - 31 SBRT

2170P-3 - 1 UBOF

2170P-3 - 0 UCOF

2170P-4 - 0 BLK

2170P-4 - 0 GAMM


i have not plugged my crt into another monitor because i dont have one

my name is

"its tasty bacon" on live if that is what you are refering to


----------



## williamtassone

I presume u mean u haven't plugged ur XBOX 360 into another CRT monitor?


Worth a try. Maybe the XBOX console itself is pumping out the signal dark???


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yep, everything is unchanged in 1080i, except for SBRT
> 
> here is where everything is at. These are all defaults for 1080i
> 
> 
> 1080i
> 
> ----------
> 
> 
> 2170P-1 - 31 SBRT
> 
> 2170P-3 - 1 UBOF
> 
> 2170P-3 - 0 UCOF
> 
> 2170P-4 - 0 BLK
> 
> 2170P-4 - 0 GAMM
> 
> 
> i have not plugged my crt into another monitor because i dont have one
> 
> my name is
> 
> "its tasty bacon" on live if that is what you are refering to




UBOF = 3-5

UCOF = 3-5

GAMM = 2-3


Presto, problem solved!







Or atleast it should be.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *williamtassone* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I presume u mean u haven't plugged ur XBOX 360 into another CRT monitor?
> 
> 
> Worth a try. Maybe the XBOX console itself is pumping out the signal dark???



I think if he raises the values everything will be fine, cause I think he was setting it without the Xbox 360 turned on. If that's not the problem then I highly doubt that the system itself would be pumping out a dark signal (highly unlikely but not totally impossible), if anything it would be a problem with the video cords themselves not the system.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

i have what you have it set to on the 480 and am unsatisfied with the picture, my blacks are gray, and therefore things look washed out..

might it do the same to the 1080i?



and i have not plugged it into a crt monitor, please read above where i said that


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i have what you have it set to on the 480 and am unsatisfied with the picture, my blacks are gray, and therefore things look washed out..
> 
> might it do the same to the 1080i?
> 
> 
> 
> and i have not plugged it into a crt monitor, please read above where i said that



It will look a lot better at 720p or 1080i, trust me. The brightness settings between the input my 360 is connected to and the one my PS2 is connected to are totally different. If it looks washed out did you try moving UCOF up a couple clicks, helped fix my problem with the quickness.


p.s. I almost forgot to mention this, anytime you have a gaming system running 420 more than likely you're better served leaving UBOF at 1 or even 0 that's why your blacks are gray.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

You do know UCOF is for color right?


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You do know UCOF is for color right?



Yeah, he needs to raise that up to fix the washed out look. He was using Pro mode and that mode has a supreme lack of color when it comes to gaming, however it is pretty close to perfect according to the Avia or DVE DVDs. I was telling him to raise that so he wouldn't have to change the sliders everytime he went from playing a game to watching TV.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Lack of color in PRO mode???


Never heard that one before but i guess i can make this case an exception.







Turning up color does not fix the image it just blurs the image because of color bleeding and you lose detail in clothing etc.


buty i can understand your comment on not worrying about raising color each time he uses another source so yeah, the service menu option UCOF would bea good idea.As for setting color in particular though,personally i would'nt set it any higher than the middle,i have mine at 27 which is 4 clicks from the middle.Looks great!! Too much color is'nt too pleasing to the eyes,but since color is basically set to prefurence,set to what ever way makes it look good to you.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Lack of color in PRO mode???
> 
> 
> Never heard that one before but i guess i can make this case an exception.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turning up color does not fix the image it just blurs the image because of color bleeding and you lose detail in clothing etc.
> 
> 
> buty i can understand your comment on not worrying about raising color each time he uses another source so yeah, the service menu option UCOF would bea good idea.As for setting color in particular though,personally i would'nt set it any higher than the middle,i have mine at 27 which is 4 clicks from the middle.Looks great!! Too much color is'nt too pleasing to the eyes,but since color is basically set to prefurence,set to what ever way makes it look good to you.



I'm refering to gaming purposes, not everyday watching purposes. I have a really good eye when it comes to color in video games, and Pro mode is no where near where it should be for that purpose. That's why I now use Vivid (with some tweaks of course) for my gaming needs, and Pro for watching TV. Mine is about around 27 as well, but video games (especially the Xbox 360) rely on really vibrant colors and by turning up UCOF all that is really doing is making up for the lack of color detail that is taken away by setting BLK to 0. When BLK is set at 0 the images are brighter, but it also takes away the natural shades from colors as well meaning you have to compensate. None of this applies to regular TV or DVDs in any way at all, it just mainly applies to video games.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Ok i get you now


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

Cool, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't confusing anybody. All the tweaks I talk about are for people who play video games, if the same tweaks were to be made to regular TV or DVD I'm pretty sure the results would be rather nasty.


----------



## TwinTurboZX

When I try to download the XBR960 Service Data PDF from the first post on the first page, anyone know why at the end of the download I get a message saying "Cannot Copy File: Cannot read from the source file or disk"? Then it just aborts the download.


----------



## TwinTurboZX

^^

Nevermind it seemed to be an IE issue, it worked with Firefox.


----------



## williamtassone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TwinTurboZX* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I try to download the XBR960 Service Data PDF from the first post on the first page, anyone know why at the end of the download I get a message saying "Cannot Copy File: Cannot read from the source file or disk"? Then it just aborts the download.



yeah I think the amended pdf can be found in post #11 of The Sony Service Codes


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

VIvid is bad because it is bad for the TV, not necesarrily because people dont like it...

anyways...


all my other channels are fine, my ps2 is fine on video 6

my movies seem ok on my 360, but they arent running on 1080i

HDTV channels seem to be fine though too....


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> VIvid is bad because it is bad for the TV, not necesarrily because people dont like it...
> 
> anyways...
> 
> 
> all my other channels are fine, my ps2 is fine on video 6
> 
> my movies seem ok on my 360, but they arent running on 1080i
> 
> HDTV channels seem to be fine though too....



No, Vivid is not bad if set correctly. The only way Vivid can harm your TV is if you leave the Picture setting jacked up all the way. Vivid is what you want for gaming, the little added things in Vivid that people hate to see in their HDTV programming or DVDs is exactly what you want to see in video games. It's all a matter of preference though either way you look at it, whatever looks good to you is good enough.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Vivid is what you want for gaming, the little added things in Vivid that people hate to see in their HDTV programming or DVDs is exactly what you want to see in video games. It's all a matter of preference though either way you look at it, whatever looks good to you is good enough.



I recently worked on setting up my cousin's several year old 34XBR800 and his new SA8300, so that he could finally step into the HD world on the HD-capable set he'd purchased several years ago.


The TV is in his family room which has lots and lots of floor-to-ceiling picture windows, allowing in lots of broad daylight during daylight hours. And the TV screen pretty much faces these windows. So it turns out that this makes watching in PRO mode essentially impossible during the day, as the picture is just so dark that you can only barely make out any picture on the screen. Since he likes to watch CNN (SD, obviously) when he's having breakfast in this room, going into VIVID was quite simply the only solution to the problem. I agreed with him. Of course this is a special situation, and I pleaded with him not to keep it this way for night viewing when the room was dark.


Obviously, my tweaks on his setup were done at night, in a dark room, for matching the expected recommended viewing environment for HD and DVD content. I've made him promise me (on pain of death) that he will not watch HD/DVD content while still in VIVID but will go back to my PRO settings at night.


VIVID definitely has its uses, when appropriate.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recently worked on setting up my cousin's several year old 34XBR800 and his new SA8300, so that he could finally step into the HD world on the HD-capable set he'd purchased several years ago.
> 
> 
> The TV is in his family room which has lots and lots of floor-to-ceiling picture windows, allowing in lots of broad daylight during daylight hours. And the TV screen pretty much faces these windows. So it turns out that this makes watching in PRO mode essentially impossible during the day, as the picture is just so dark that you can only barely make out any picture on the screen. Since he likes to watch CNN (SD, obviously) when he's having breakfast in this room, going into VIVID was quite simply the only solution to the problem. I agreed with him. Of course this is a special situation, and I pleaded with him not to keep it this way for night viewing when the room was dark.
> 
> 
> Obviously, my tweaks on his setup were done at night, in a dark room, for matching the expected recommended viewing environment for HD and DVD content. I've made him promise me (on pain of death) that he will not watch HD/DVD content while still in VIVID but will go back to my PRO settings at night.
> 
> 
> VIVID definitely has its uses, when appropriate.



Once again I will say that I am saying only to use Vivid while gaming, at no other time do I use it. The image that Vivid provides with the right tweaks (and picture and brightness sliders at 31 clicks which is the middle) is unbelievable while gaming, it looks terrible for anything else though. I use pro mode for regular TV watching and Movie mode (tweaked) for DVDs, and Vivid for my PS2 and Xbox 360.


----------



## Mathesar

Anyone know if its possible to fix or at least adjust some of the geometry errors im seeing on my XBR960, Straight lines going across the screen tend to bend downward in the upper left & right corners and bend upward in the lower corners, the lower right corner is the worst .I took this pic and you can defiantely see the upward bend in the lower right, It's not bugging me that bad but would be nice if I could at least improve it.


----------



## mapson

Mathesar, one word...magnets. I corrected most of it on my 955, do a search for my thread on horizontal distortion. For the fearless and it may still not remove completely but you will see an improvement if you decide to (*gulp*) stick your hand back there. It isn't easy as there is a lot of trail and error so if you're not a patient person, it may not be in your best interest to try it.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone know if its possible to fix or at least adjust some of the geometry errors im seeing on my XBR960, Straight lines going across the screen tend to bend downward in the upper left & right corners and bend upward in the lower corners, the lower right corner is the worst .I took this pic and you can defiantely see the upward bend in the lower right, It's not bugging me that bad but would be nice if I could at least improve it.



Seems as though your picture is at least brighter now.


----------



## Mongoose

I received my second 960N today. The first, from ABT, arrived damaged and is waiting to go back. This one I picked up from FRY's. It's new, not a demo, and I was pleased to find it. I have an adjustment question. I have been studying this forum for awhile but I am unsure exactly where to go in the service menu to correct this problem. My set is brighter in the center than at the left and right edges. These edges are a bit bluer than the rest of the screen and then become slightly pink as they transition to the bright center. All of this is quite subtle with the pink being just detectable (I don't think it is an optical illusion caused by the adjacent blue). It is only apparent with extremely light material. I tried the adjustments in the landing section of the service menu but they had no effect. I don't know if what I see is just a limitation of this CRT technology or something which could be ameliorated by fine tuning. Has anyone experienced this?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mapson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mathesar, one word...magnets. I corrected most of it on my 955, do a search for my thread on horizontal distortion.



So how about giving us a reference to your thread!


----------



## mapson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mapson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mathesar, one word...magnets. I corrected most of it on my 955, do a search for my thread on horizontal distortion.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So how about giving us a reference to your thread!
Click to expand...


Here it is.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=651619


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone know if its possible to fix or at least adjust some of the geometry errors im seeing on my XBR960, Straight lines going across the screen tend to bend downward in the upper left & right corners and bend upward in the lower corners, the lower right corner is the worst .I took this pic and you can defiantely see the upward bend in the lower right, It's not bugging me that bad but would be nice if I could at least improve it.




Your just going to have to live with it,geometry will never be perfect on the corners on a crt.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

I have a question for KenTech,


Did you use a refferance to adjust your CUTS and DRV's for black level and color temperature?IF so what would you prefur or what equipment did you use?


Would copying your CUTS and DRV settings do fine on my 34hs420?I mean...i used your other settings and they looked ok to me such as SBRT at 29, RYR-14,RYB-14,GYR-6,GYB-4


I trust your eyes since we both have come up with simialr results in the past few weeks,so i'm pretty confident that what works with your set will work with mine.


So i take it your color temp with those CUTS and DRV are pretty close to D6500k?Is it anywhere close to perfection?


----------



## Mathesar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mapson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mathesar, one word...magnets. I corrected most of it on my 955, do a search for my thread on horizontal distortion. For the fearless and it may still not remove completely but you will see an improvement if you decide to (*gulp*) stick your hand back there. It isn't easy as there is a lot of trail and error so if you're not a patient person, it may not be in your best interest to try it.



Thanks I read through your 'barrel distortion' thread and that is indeed whats going on with mine, Im just not sure what type of magnets to buy , you mentioned the 1/2" diameter magnet you tried was a bit strong?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Seems as though your picture is at least brighter now.



Yea Im very happy with Xbox360's picture quality now ,My problem was trying to get Pro mode looking good with video games .. Standard mode and some minor UBOF / SBRT adjustments did the trick ,also using a Low VM setting gave it a nice boost in overall "crispness" especially with text which you see a lot of in Oblivion.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your just going to have to live with it,geometry will never be perfect on the corners on a crt.



Well it looks like using magnets may help,I may try improving the lower right corner with this method. You would be very surprised how good the geometry is on my 24" FW900 CRT pc monitor ..its literally near perfect with no corner bowing or bends at all.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mapson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> one word...magnets. I corrected most of it on my 955, do a search for my thread on horizontal distortion. For the fearless and it may still not remove completely but you will see an improvement if you decide to (*gulp*) stick your hand back there. It isn't easy as there is a lot of trail and error so if you're not a patient person, it may not be in your best interest to try it.



I think you are right about everything, and I haven't tried it myself yet. I had a service guy come out for a vertical convergence problem (horizontal lines), and he fixed that in a jiffy with the rotating magnets on the neck of the tube. When I asked him about the curvature in the corners and a slight bluish patch left of center, he reminded me of something I already believed: that you can get very screwed around with magnets. You adjust convergence/curvature in one place, and it goes out somewhere else. Deflection of the beam to straighten out those corners may conflict with vertical convergence for the same area, and so you may get the geometry right but have more color fringing on horizontal white lines. I say "may" because I don't have personal experience yet. (I do with computer monitors.)


I know there is a cluster of stick-on magnets on my tube just behind where the bluish patch is. Is it the cause or an attempt at a fix, I don't know? I'm motivated to find out. For now I'm ignoring it.


The service tech, in response to my request, didn't hesitate to give me a couple of "official" magnet assemblies. Each is a plastic base with self-stick tape, plus two independent magnets that can be (a) rotated to cancel or reinforce each other in strength, and (b) together rotated in any orientation. Haven't used them yet.


You might consider that *two* similar magnets stuck together might help you lessen the affect of a too-strong single magnet. Further, you have to consider whether the magnet's poles should be perpendicular to the tube, parallel to it, or somewhere in-between.


You can purchase at an Office-Depot-type store a flexible, rubbery, clay-like adhesive that you can mold into any shape. (Usually blue or white, maybe called "artists adhesive" or "type cleaner." Not a wax!) It doesn't deteriorate significantly with age and is great for adhering magnets to CRTs or nearby plastic in almost any position. Double-stick foam, by comparison, really limits your positioning ability and is hard to reposition without destruction.


----------



## williamtassone

Ken

I've pulled apart 2 XBR960's that were made in Japan and there were none of these so-called "landing" magnets on the tube.


If memory serves me right the US xbr960's were made either in Mexico or USA.


Is it possible that these tube magnets, if removed could ameliorate your bluish patch just left off centre?.


No harm in trying once each magnet is "referenced" with Liquid paper prior to removal

Will


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *williamtassone* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is it possible that these tube magnets, if removed could ameliorate your bluish patch just left off centre?. No harm in trying once each magnet is "referenced" with Liquid paper prior to removal.



It is most certainly possible, and I intend to try! I have no reservations about numbering the magnets, outlining them on the tube, then removing them. They might all have been put there by an inexperienced setup technician.


Another example: The horizontal-trapezoid correction was way off (HTPZ), and was originally conpensated by another geometry setting being off in the other direction! Correcting HTPZ to , I was able to improve geometry by correcting the competing settings to more-reasonable values. So much for intellligent assembly-line procedures!


It's just that dealing with this monster and its subwoofer draped intimately over the tube, to modify the magnets, all while looking into a large mirror at a test pattern, is like trying to get up the enthusiasm to do your own brake job!


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone know if its possible to fix or at least adjust some of the geometry errors im seeing on my XBR960, Straight lines going across the screen tend to bend downward in the upper left & right corners and bend upward in the lower corners, the lower right corner is the worst .I took this pic and you can defiantely see the upward bend in the lower right, It's not bugging me that bad but would be nice if I could at least improve it.



You could try VCEN if you haven't already. It helped me reduce mine.


----------



## DSperber

Not that I would do this myself (though others might), but convergence and corner geometry/linearity adjustments should use "convergence correction" magnets affixed to various places on the back of the picture tube. This was done to my XBR960 by a qualified Sony authorized service technician who was called to try and correct the usual convergence/bowing anomalies that many new sets exhibit. The resulting improvements were genuinely dramatic, but this guy really knew his stuff and spent about 2 hours (over 2 separate visits) getting things right.


The magnets are sort of square (perhaps 1/2" square) affixed to the end of what looks like a piece of Scotch tape. Once positioned properly the tape is pressed down to make the magnet stick to where you want it.


Looking at the XBR960 service manual (fold-out page 142), this is item #63, Sony part number 4-051-734-21 ("PIECE B(120), CONV CORRECT"). It should be available from Sony parts sources, or maybe its substitute 4-051-734-41. Price is about $1.33 each.


Again... proper fooling around in the back of the set (and its very high voltage) is not for the untrained. But these magnets are the solution.


----------



## mapson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks I read through your 'barrel distortion' thread and that is indeed whats going on with mine, Im just not sure what type of magnets to buy , you mentioned the 1/2" diameter magnet you tried was a bit strong?



Yes, the 1/2" dia. magnets were purchased at a local Radio Shack. I still haven't tracked down the appropriate magnets to use yet. Been watching too much tv.


----------



## mapson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not that I would do this myself (though others might), but convergence and corner geometry/linearity adjustments should use "convergence correction" magnets affixed to various places on the back of the picture tube. This was done to my XBR960 by a qualified Sony authorized service technician who was called to try and correct the usual convergence/bowing anomalies that many new sets exhibit. The resulting improvements were genuinely dramatic, but this guy really knew his stuff and spent about 2 hours (over 2 separate visits) getting things right.
> 
> 
> The magnets are sort of square (perhaps 1/2" square) affixed to the end of what looks like a piece of Scotch tape. Once positioned properly the tape is pressed down to make the magnet stick to where you want it.
> 
> 
> Looking at the XBR960 service manual (fold-out page 142), this is item #63, Sony part number 4-051-734-21 ("PIECE B(120), CONV CORRECT"). It should be available from Sony parts sources, or maybe its substitute 4-051-734-41. Price is about $1.33 each.
> 
> 
> Again... proper fooling around in the back of the set (and its very high voltage) is not for the untrained. But these magnets are the solution.



Thanks for the item number, I may call up Sony for these magnets. You're right, about the high voltage, just be very very careful not to touch anything.







BTW, I spent hours adjusting, moving, turning the magnets to see the effect on the screen. Also, if anyone is interested, one can easily just point a flashlight through the top and sides of the tv to see the clusters of magnets around the tube.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

i switched the componant cables to a different video, and it didnt help... because of the lack of adjustments on that video, the colors were awesome, but the black problem persisted... I decided to walk into EB today, and get them to put a copy of burn out in, and HEY, i could see, i dont know if i should sell the TV or not. I dont know what to do anymore.. the game was playing in 1080i


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mapson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the item number, I may call up Sony for these magnets.



I have the name and phone number of an electronics parts place in Santa Clarita CA that for sure has six of these magnets in stock, if you can't get them from Sony (although I don't know why they wouldn't be able or willing to sell them to you). PM me if you need the details. That's how I got the price of $1.33 each.


There are also probably other non-Sony places around the country that sell Sony parts at good prices, where these magnets can also be obtained.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i switched the componant cables to a different video, and it didnt help... because of the lack of adjustments on that video, the colors were awesome, but the black problem persisted... I decided to walk into EB today, and get them to put a copy of burn out in, and HEY, i could see, i dont know if i should sell the TV or not. I dont know what to do anymore.. the game was playing in 1080i



This set where you could see, it was different than your current set?


I've been watching your posts since January, and if memory serves, I don't think you've ever been real happy with this tv, correct? Hasn't the problem been that the display is just too dark for your gaming?


Maybe you should consider another tv. Get something that'll make you happy and will make your gameplaying enjoyable.


----------



## bwill15beast

im new to this and this has been a very helpful site, i just got a dve and ive been trying to calibrate my tv, i have a sony kv32hs510 i have been looking for guides but havent gotten far, some of the info seems to help but the tvs are different. i also dont have any external devices to see if im in db6550 so for right now im in neutral. i need help can someone help me or point me into a direction on a link that has my service manual info?


----------



## Myke256

easy question. Whenever I adjust picture placement/overscan for HD it's affecting my 480i picture. Is there anyway to adjust them seperately? This is for an HS. My HD source is on Video 6 input. And I use Wide Zoom when watching SDTV.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

I found someone who had the same problem with the 360 and the same tv


he changed his settings to


2170-P

sbrt - 40 was 24

gdrv - 21 was 23

bdrv - 27 was 25


2170-D

qpam - 36 was 22

qpdv - 63 was 55

df - 0 was 34

dqp - 32 was 30


and i guess now everything is fine... i might have to try that


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This set where you could see, it was different than your current set?
> 
> 
> I've been watching your posts since January, and if memory serves, I don't think you've ever been real happy with this tv, correct? Hasn't the problem been that the display is just too dark for your gaming?
> 
> 
> Maybe you should consider another tv. Get something that'll make you happy and will make your gameplaying enjoyable.



Yes, that is the ONLY problem, things are too dark when gaming, and only on my 360.. well things in 1080i, everything else seems great I had things i thought were wrong but werent with the tv but were right... id love the tv to death if i could fix this one problem


\ hat and horizontal lines going across my screen when there is something fast moving, ive seen it in cartooons, shows, and my 360 dashboard when i press the middle circle button


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I found someone who had the same problem with the 360 and the same tv
> 
> 
> he changed his settings to
> 
> 
> 2170-P
> 
> sbrt - 40 was 24
> 
> gdrv - 21 was 23
> 
> bdrv - 27 was 25
> 
> 
> 2170-D
> 
> qpam - 36 was 22
> 
> qpdc - 63 was 55
> 
> df - 0 was 34
> 
> dqp - 32 was 30
> 
> 
> and i guess now everything is fine... i might have to try that



Fixed....


I second what Justsc said, you should get another tv and look else where since you seem to not be satisfied with your sony. Maybe an LCD would be a better choice no?


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Fixed....
> 
> 
> I second what Justsc said, you should get another tv and look else where since you seem to not be satisfied with your sony. Maybe an LCD would be a better choice no?



like i said, i love my sony, but for some reason the games are unplayable on it.. and i have a problem with horizontal , left to right lines on fast moving objects, what do you think of those settings i posted


(also, theres no way i could get the amount i paid for this tv now)


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Fiddle with SBRT and QPDC i would leave the others alone.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

why, what are the others?

and is it ok to have sbrt that high


----------



## SurfingMatt27

I would'nt touch too much SM items since ithen you will start to screw up other inputs,etc.


That's why i only said fiddle with those two settings because out of the box these sony's are pretty good PQ wise.You don't really have to do too much to them to make them great besides tone down the edge enhancements a bit and get rid of the black crush and redpush,but other than that these sony tv's are really good out of the box.


As for your question on that SBRT setting,yes that is pretty high,personally i would'nt go any higher than 31 myself.I have mine at 29 and no black crush here!


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

then i dont know what to do to fix this


----------



## SurfingMatt27

You mean your black level?Well just raise UBOF for your xbox360 on that input pretty high then maybe you could see something.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

colors are great just lots of black crush, pitch black where there should be shadows?

so do the ubof? whats a good number


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

Surfing matt do you agree with bolo's old posts


----------



## Mathesar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> colors are great just lots of black crush, pitch black where there should be shadows?
> 
> so do the ubof? whats a good number



Have you tried making adjustments while the Xbox360 is on? Get to a semi-dark area in Oblivion and make the adjustments so that you can see the changes taking place, Thats what I did.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

but im not exactly sure how it should look


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> but im not exactly sure how it should look




Ok then if that's the case then just look at the overall image and adjust untill you can visibly see things then stop when things start to get grey,that's when you know you have gone too far because then the image get's a smokey look and loses it's sense of contrast ratio.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

ok ill do this, should i only mess with the settings bolo recomended


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ok ill do this, should i only mess with the settings bolo recomended



The settings I tweaked were all settings that in my opinion needed to be addressed. The results may vary for you, it also depends a little on which video mode you're using and which scan mode. The settings for 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i shouldn't all be the same.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

SO, like heres the plan

Tomb Raider, Legends and NBA live 06 for 360 demos have greyscales, in game... in 1080i , so im going to adjust it according to those

now to do this , i just need to know what settings to mess with


sliders?

service menu for contrast and brightness? or others?

what?


----------



## SurfingMatt27

are you serious?


The info was already mentioned to you a few pages back..it's SBRT and UBOF to balance the other inputs.Leave brightness and contrast at the center when adjusting SBRT.


Now here is what you do,i'll make this simple and clear....


1: Leave the contrast and brightness in the middle


2: Adjust SBRT in the service menu leaving UBOF at 0 for the input your using,example..Component input 5.


3:Once that is set then you can adjust UBOF for the other inputs to balance black level,you might not need to use it since SBRT may do the trick but i don't own your tv or know what is connected to it so it's your decision where to set it.


4: Enjoy the show, your all done!


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

if i only mess with SBRT

to barely see the second darkest bar, like it says

SBRT is at 37-38



i also noticed

that both video inputs, 5 and 6, they both have osmething plugged into them, the green lettering of the service menu is dark on both of them and all other inputs are fine...


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Your adjusting SBRT for the component inputs right? When you adjusted your SBRT it was for your dvd player at 480p correct?


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

i adjusted SBRT while xbox had a demo on at 1080i

top of my screen right now says


2170P-1 7 37 Service

SBRT HD-FULL Video5

WSL: #'s 1080i


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Have you tried anything else on the component inputs were they dark as well or fine?What i mean is..have you tried another device on that input like a dvd player or another game console is it still Dark?


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

the green letterings on both video 5 and 6 are darker than any other video setting

ps2 is on 6, xbox is on 5... I have nothing else to run on this input, nothing else runs in 1080i that i have.

So SBRT is at 37 im about to do another greyscale...

It might have to be a little higher...

Things look kinda washed out now though, but i can see in oblivion now, sorta.. its getting there.. same with burnout, but its still kinda persistant in burn out


2170P-1 - 37 - SBRT

2170P-3 - 2 UBOF

2170P-4 - 0 BLK

2170P-3 - 0 UCOF

2170P-4 - 0 GAMM


----------



## SurfingMatt27

So when you play a PS2 game is it dark on the component input as well?


Also when you were calibrating SBRT for the 360 UBOF should be at 0. UBOF is a brightness offset,it's purpose is to balance the rest of the inputs in black level incase you see an inbalance.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the green letterings on both video 5 and 6 are darker than any other video setting
> 
> ps2 is on 6, xbox is on 5... I have nothing else to run on this input, nothing else runs in 1080i that i have.
> 
> So SBRT is at 37 im about to do another greyscale...
> 
> It might have to be a little higher...
> 
> Things look kinda washed out now though, but i can see in oblivion now, sorta.. its getting there.. same with burnout, but its still kinda persistant in burn out
> 
> 
> 2170P-1 - 37 - SBRT
> 
> 2170P-3 - 2 UBOF
> 
> 2170P-4 - 0 BLK
> 
> 2170P-3 - 0 UCOF
> 
> 2170P-4 - 0 GAMM




Try GAMM = 1 and UCOF = anywhere from 1-5 depending on the video game system and scan mode, that should take away the washed out look. SBRT seems kinda high, but no two tvs are exactly alike.


Also I almost forgot to mention the best approach for setting SBRT or UBOF (in my experiences at least) is to use a black screen with some kind of text on it from the system (i.e. the Playstation 2 startup screen where is says Playstation 2). The text is on a line or a box if you will, which emits a different level of black than the background black making it appear gray all the way across the screen wherever the text is located. This is something you are not supposed to be able to see, so basically use that as a way of setting up for your gaming needs.


I'm coming to the conclusion (not a lot of people agree with me on this, but I believe it to be true) that you can leave UBOF at 0 or 1 or whatever it's default setting is, and set SBRT to the right level. Then you turn up GAMM to 3 and all should be good.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So when you play a PS2 game is it dark on the component input as well?
> 
> 
> Also when you were calibrating SBRT for the 360 UBOF should be at 0. UBOF is a brightness offset,it's purpose is to balance the rest of the inputs in black level incase you see an inbalance.



my ubof is 2 by default though, but ok

i had to turn sbrt up to 40 today to see in GRAW


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> my ubof is 2 by default though, but ok
> 
> i had to turn sbrt up to 40 today to see in GRAW



You need to turn up your GAMM, give it a shot and you will see the difference.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Try GAMM = 1 and UCOF = anywhere from 1-5 depending on the video game system and scan mode, that should take away the washed out look. SBRT seems kinda high, but no two tvs are exactly alike.
> 
> 
> Also I almost forgot to mention the best approach for setting SBRT or UBOF (in my experiences at least) is to use a black screen with some kind of text on it from the system (i.e. the Playstation 2 startup screen where is says Playstation 2). The text is on a line or a box if you will, which emits a different level of black than the background black making it appear gray all the way across the screen wherever the text is located. This is something you are not supposed to be able to see, so basically use that as a way of setting up for your gaming needs.
> 
> 
> I'm coming to the conclusion (not a lot of people agree with me on this, but I believe it to be true) that you can leave UBOF at 0 or 1 or whatever it's default setting is, and set SBRT to the right level. Then you turn up GAMM to 3 and all should be good.



Seems about right Bolo, not sure about GAMM though since at 0 it should already be at Maximum Gamma,but then again these super fine pitch sony's tend to have a slightly darker picture than the hs420 series like the one i won so i guess that by you raising that setting it should work.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Seems about right Bolo, not sure about GAMM though since at 0 it should already be at Maximum Gamma,but then again these super fine pitch sony's tend to have a slightly darker picture than the hs420 series like the one i won so i guess that by you raising that setting it should work.



I have a 30HS420, and it's really hard to get a good viewing level for the 360 games without setting GAMM to a high level. If you set SBRT or UBOF too high it will wash out the blacks, and I don't really feel like raising the Contrast/Picture setting in the user menu.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

I've been hearing several of the same issues and i think it has nothing to do with your tv, i think it's just the xbox360 itself.Apparently the designers must have had LCD in mind when making their games to a certain picture level.So naturaly xbox360 is darker on a CRT perhaps?


I can't comment for myself since i don't own one yet,but as for my cousin and his 34" sony 34xs955 he just simply turns the brightness higher when playing the xbox360 and has no issues.It could be the game as well, it could be dark intentionalyy to give it a sort of mood.


My settings are SBRT 29 and UBOF at 0 for the rest of the inputs,when i get my 360 someday i will coment and see if i am seeing the same issues you guys are seeing.


What's your SBRT set at? try 29 itg seems to be the best setting IMO while still achieving good blacks.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've been hearing several of the same issues and i think it has nothing to do with your tv, i think it's just the xbox360 itself.Apparently the designers must have had LCD in mind when making their games to a certain picture level.So naturaly xbox360 is darker on a CRT perhaps?
> 
> 
> I can't comment for myself since i don't own one yet,but as for my cousin and his 34" sony 34xs955 he just simply turns the brightness higher when playing the xbox360 and has no issues.It could be the game as well, it could be dark intentionalyy to give it a sort of mood.
> 
> 
> My settings are SBRT 29 and UBOF at 0 for the rest of the inputs,when i get my 360 someday i will coment and see if i am seeing the same issues you guys are seeing.
> 
> 
> What's your SBRT set at? try 29 itg seems to be the best setting IMO while still achieving good blacks.



Yes, I actually commented on this issue a few posts back somewhere. When the Xbox 360's software (games) were being developed, the developers and testers were using mostly LCD's. The 360 is indeed naturally darker on CRTs, but that's not too big of a problem to fix.


I thinking about actually lowering SBRT (29 right now) a little and raising UBOF (0 for PS2 and 3 for 360 at this point in time) and trying to use GAMM at 1, but 3 makes a lot more sense to me. Sooner or later I will stumble onto the perfect settings, it's just trial and error right now. I might end up going back to pro mode and see if I can't find a better way to utilize it for gaming.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

im actually noticing some black crush on HD TV progs in 1080i though too, a black shirt where you can hardly see the wrinkles or blends in with a black background


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> im actually noticing some black crush on HD TV progs in 1080i though too, a black shirt where you can hardly see the wrinkles or blends in with a black background




It's still dark even at those high settings of SBRT at 37?


If that is true then i think there is a problem with your sony's component inputs because this sin't normal especially if you have to set SBRT that high,you really should'nt have to go any higher than 31 to see details in dark areas.


It's either that or there is a problem with your xbox360,try using someone elses on your tv and see if there is a difference in black level.


----------



## frankincensed

Just got my kd30xs-933, the pq is awesome, even though I don't have a hd receiver. My one concern is that at times my picture looks like it is being pushed in at the middle, almost a concave effect. Its most apparent when Im looking at dish networks program guide, especially in the normal screen setting. Is this a convergence issue, or just something I don't have set right. I've fiddled with the tilt level, ect. to no avail. Has anyone else with this set experienced this or know how to adjust it?


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's still dark even at those high settings of SBRT at 37?
> 
> 
> If that is true then i think there is a problem with your sony's component inputs because this sin't normal especially if you have to set SBRT that high,you really should'nt have to go any higher than 31 to see details in dark areas.
> 
> 
> It's either that or there is a problem with your xbox360,try using someone elses on your tv and see if there is a difference in black level.



it shouldnt have anything to do with component inputs when i just said I noticed some black crush on a TV channel...


----------



## bwill15beast

much to my dismay i reset my tv to the original factory settings thinking to correct and undo a few things. i thought that was the setting to which it was when i purchased it, boy was i wrong. i have sat thru and has gone over the service menu countless times, and have set my convergence, focus, and color settings to that i like, but its only for 480i, when trying to view something in 480p, 720p and 1080i all i get is a weird signal that resembles that of what is beings sent to my tv via rf signal, everything is hooked up the same as it was, but my inputs are now(f....d!)my tv type is a sony kv32hs510, im looking for proper id values thinking that maybe 1 or a few are off, like 1d 7, so if theres anyone out there that has those values or may know what could be a solution ( value that i could set in the service manual ) please help. I have gotten this far as to resetting all of my values i just need those few left, and a few finer tweaks that i can do myself after i can get the appropriate signals to be sent to my tv and my tube will be perfect( in my eyes at least)


----------



## Ryu76

I also have an xbox 360 on a sony tv kd-36xs955 and it is missing the top and bottoms of many games. Again back to a previous comment maybe made with LCD in mind. I thought I would be smart and mess with overscan settings DHPH, DVPH, MDHS and MDVS to get it in focus I got the high def in focus great then my standard TV and PS2 and other devices were all out of wack. So I thought I set back to my defaults I wrote down and for some reason the screen is stretch vertically. Im worried maybe I wrote a default down for one mode and it wasnt same on all.. ugh. So now Im forced to make adjustments again. Out of town right now figured I would join this site do some posts see what I could come up with as far as help. I saw info for 34" sony widescreen tv and I downloaded it and made a spreadsheet to use when I get home.


I saw a post at beginning of thread for kd-36xs955 default settings from kentech. It wont download gets to end says it cant read. Does anyone have good copy of the kd-36xs955 default settings so I can match with what I have. Even a doc with all the definitions of these settings would be nice.


Thanks


----------



## Napoleon D

Sorry if this is wandering off the subject. I am just responding to something from a couple of pages ago.


Ken-


Regarding the color decoding you discussed, I had my ISF calibrator (Chad Billheimer) return to do some tweaking last night. He is VERY skilled, and had previously adjusted my focus and convergence amazingly tight! I ran your color-decoding settings by him. Months ago we had initially set all inputs to 13-15-5-3 for RYR through GYB respectively. I liked this, even though I felt it gave the colors a bit of garishness to them (which is less realistic). With this is mind, the calibrator also found that the color slider should be up by about 1 more tick from where we previously had it. With the colors already being a bit gaudy, I felt this would be wrong. But rather than doubting that, I doubted the color decoding pattern. So we looked back at those values. He tried re-calibrating the colors using several different test discs. Using all of them to calibrate, 14-14-6-4 indeed got us the closest, which was a bit closer than 13-15-5-3. In reality, some of the ideal color decoding settings are more towards the middle of 2 numbers, but the closest combinations of all of them seemed to be that 14-14-6-4 pattern. It also looks the most accurate as well, which makes a lot of sense. And naturally, it is also the most realistic looking. This allowed the color to feasibly slide up a notch to its correct level and still look appropriate.


Good call on that one Ken!


He worked mostly on my 480p/component with the XP-30 player. Regarding SYSM-2 versus SYSM-3 - I personally prefer SYSM-2. As you have said, both combinations can get you to similar destinations. I asked the calibrator to redo the sharpness using SYSM-2 as a value. I had no mides or VM's activated at the time. According to the patterns I had on my 57 RP/CRT, he approved the zero mide use (mide-63) and VM's turned off. Part of this was due to my personally preference, but he also felt it wasn't needed quite as much with SYSM being set at 2. That being said, he did take a look at MHLY and MHLC, and felt zero was the best for the colors. He didn't look at MHYL or MHCL as closely, but still felt that the MIDE-63 looked the best with the color/sharp patterns. Keep in mind I'm a filter for translating this info. since he's a pro and I'm not. But this is roughly what he was saying. Also, my screen is 57" and VM's personally never were easy to handle on a screen that large.


I swore SHAP and PREO had effect on 480P material. I swore that lowering SHAP to zero took away the coarsness with 480p material. I saw it happen with a few dvd's over 480p. He did not see any change to Avia sharp patterns while manipulating SHAP in 480p, and felt the menu was not active for this resolution. I think the change is so subtle it was hard to notice, but I swear there is interaction going on. Otherwise I would not have bothered changing SHAP to zero.


As for sharpness, I am left with SYSM-2 and the sharpness slider. The result is a VERY film-like picture. The XP-30 puts out a great picture as it is. The sharp-slider is at 22 ticks. I feel this is a bit low, even though it did well with the sharp pattern on Avia. Question: What is the appropriate sharpness level for this? I want to say it should be somewhere between 24 and 30. One of you found a good level, but I can't seem to track it down. My calibrator set it very well, I feel it could use a couple ticks more, and I was curious what you typically used.


Anyway, I just wanted to give you some positive feedback with your spot-on color decoding Ken!


Another question - the "Axis" value in the color service menu - is this merely a value that points to different color dedocing patterns, in the same way that different "Mide" values point to different mide collumns? I have entered in the exact same color decoding values for Axis - 1 and Axis - 0, and switched the two back and forth, and there is no change. I want to say that axis affects nothing else but color decoding values. If this is true, this means that you can mix up the color decoding values for a few inputs, to avoid having to compromise by using one color pattern for all inputs. Color decoding is global for each axis value, but the assigned axis value for each input is not global. For weeks i had the same colors for all inputs but the coax/antenna, and it was because axis was different for only that input.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

I'd just keep sharpness in the middle personaly that way it balances out for other content like VHS,cable tv,etc.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

My Vocal Coach is going to be on Conan O Brian Tomarrow, ill check for black crush then, cause i seen it during saturday night live, i was playing oblivion and it seems like the tv had reset the sbrt , but it hadnt...

Im going to have a professional callibrator come out if i cant fix this, or also have sony come out


----------



## AncientOne

New to forum not sure if I'm posting correctly.










I will be installing a new CRT in my KD-30XS955 in a few days so I will have an opportunity to put the memory stick patterns to the test.


I have found that Sony has some bad quality control on their CRT's having changed manufacturing plants 3 times in less than 3 years. I have two of these sets. The one manufactured in 1984 had an American made CRT. The one manufactured in 1985 had a Japanese made CRT (with loose aperture grill) & from what I'm reading the next CRT's will likely be manufactured in China. The American made tube has developed a G1-2 to K short that acts up after the set is warm.


I do have some nice test equipment & used to do television repair. My pattern generator is nice but not really for HDTV. I did put a pattern on with my generator & compared it to the test pattern that KenTech provided for memory stick use. I found that pattern tracked very close with my pattern generator as they both showed the convergence being off in the same area.


I have looked at the video waveforms with a digital storage oscilloscope.


I have replaced many picture tubes in my day but this will be my first HDTV tube replacement.


I'm planning to change the cabinet to gloss black while I have everything torn down.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AncientOne* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My pattern generator is nice but not really for HDTV. I did put a pattern on with my generator & compared it to the test pattern that KenTech provided for memory stick use. I found that pattern tracked very close with my pattern generator as they both showed the convergence being off in the same area.



Don't forget that there are internal test patterns for 1080i, 720p, and 480p. Absent anything else, the HD patterns can be used for fairly precise calibration, although they're not very sophisticated.


----------



## daltonlanny

HELP ME! I went into the blue QM and QT info & test pattern section in the service menu and did some adjustments to the vertical and horizontal perimeters in D-1 and D-2 while on a test pattern.

I NOW CANNOT EXIT THIS SECTION!

I have tried turning the tv on and off several times, tried unplugging it, etc., and it goes back to this same test pattern and the loud test tone everytime I turn the tv back on!

What do I do to exit this screen and test tone and return the tv to normal operation.

I am very worried.

Please help.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Daltonlanny,


I've had that happen before a couple of times(even if you turn set off and back on outside of SM), even when I didn't "write" the QM PATN value for the test pattern I was looking at ---In my case here's what worked to fix it ..... For instance --- If one of the QM "PATN" test patterns are "stuck" on screen, try going to QM "PATN=0" and then writing the "0" value(which turns the test patterns off).


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *daltonlanny* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> HELP ME! I went into the blue QM and QT info & test pattern section in the service menu and did some adjustments to the vertical and horizontal perimeters in D-1 and D-2 while on a test pattern.
> 
> I NOW CANNOT EXIT THIS SECTION!



I apologize for not discussing this in my recent posting on the internal test patterns. Happened to me, too.


If you WRITE your new settings while using a test pattern, you have also accidentally written that test pattern! That's incredibly stupid on Sony's part: PATN should have been a *temporary* setting, as are several other test parameters. But it isn't.


As Nitewatchman said, the solution is to go into service mode, turn any pattern off, and WRITE that. So go to PATN, reduce its value to zero (which brings back the picture), and WRITE.


By now you have also discovered that one should also turn down the audio while using the test patterns, preferebly to zero!


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Don't forget that there are internal test patterns for 1080i, 720p, and 480p. Absent anything else, the HD patterns can be used for fairly precise calibration, although they're not very sophisticated.



This is true, however I have seen that the external sources can be quite different. i have calibrated the TV color decoder with a HD signal generator, then input a HD signal through a HD satellite STB and the decoding, and brightness have been noticeably off.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i have calibrated the TV color decoder with a HD signal generator, then input a HD signal through a HD satellite STB and the decoding, and brightness have been noticeably off.



The set-top box could be the wildcard, here. These TVs can use a CableCard or receive clear-QAM (unprotected) broadcasts without such a box. For clear-QAM, the internal-source calibration works as well as I could possibly want, as there are more differences between stations than between what I see and "perfection."


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The set-top box could be the wildcard, here. These TVs can use a CableCard or receive clear-QAM (unprotected) broadcasts without such a box. For clear-QAM, the internal-source calibration works as well as I could possibly want, as there are more differences between stations than between what I see and "perfection."



I would agree. With the ATSC input, I calibrate it directly with the signal generator. It is just when a STB un-compresses the signal for Component or HDMI HD output, things change. This is where calibration becomes difficult without a HD signal generator. Additionally, Cable boxes do not have ATSC inputs and calibration becomes difficult unless, by chance, a broadcast test pattern can be saved with a PVR for calibration.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

I think im going to call sony support and get their asses here because

sbrt is 37 and its still horrible, black crush is bad in HDTV , which i just noticed today, a guys face shadow was blending into his black jacket


----------



## daltonlanny

Thanks KenTech and Nitewatchman!

I got it back to normal...WHEW!

Had me terribly worried for a while.

Thanks also to you guys for all the extremely valuable information you all have posted on this thread. Great stuff.

Lanny


----------



## williamtassone

is this the de-facto grey hair forum?


----------



## daltonlanny

Another question and concern:

After I did some tweaking of the horizontal and vertical perimeters of the picture in 2170 D-1 and 2170 D-2, the size of the image is much more accurate and hardly any of the image is "chopped off" at the edges with 4:3 programs.

But...

On widescreen or HD images with the black bars above the images there are now a relatively faint red line and blue line just above the picture that run horizontally across the entire screen.

The blue line and the red line are close together [about 1 millimeter apart] and are located about 2 millimeters above the picture.

If I zoom the image to fill the screen or watch normal 4:3 programs the red and blue lines do not appear.

Why do these red and blue lines appear now?

Did I adjust or do something wrong?

Is there anyway to correct this?

Thanks again for all your help and advice.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think im going to call sony support and get their asses here because
> 
> sbrt is 37 and its still horrible, black crush is bad in HDTV , which i just noticed today, a guys face shadow was blending into his black jacket



I'm sorry but after so many posts of you posting issues with your tv, i can officially say now that there is something wrong with your tv and you should get it fixed because at SBRT at 29-31 you should see all shadow detail.


----------



## Napoleon D

irhxcbcziuzxs-


SBRT is not the only value that may affect a black crush. There are all of the values/codes in the "Luma" menu that have effect on black levels. But there are several controls that might be on a low setting, which should be much higher. SBOF is one such control. Check around and experiment. As i said Luma is the big one, which might have a few codes that might be of some interest. As we know there are hundreds of controls in there, and if just one of these is too low, you could be seeing too much black. You just need to find which one it is.


Otherwise, it's probably broken.


Another question concerning balck levels and brightness. I have my set calibrated with the ideal black level for watching in the dark. My set looks great but has been an overbearing picture since I had it calibrated. I wonder if it's because i have such rich black levels.... I also wonder if it has to do with gamma. My grayscale was calibrated using blue and green gamma values of 2 and 3 respectively. Gamma makes midtones lighter i understand, but i also wonder if it is causing some eyestrain, as it gives the picture more punch, but at the expense of being a little too intense. Are we generally supposed to use gammas to adjust the grayscale... as opposed to just adjusting the "cuts" and "drive's" by themselves ? Just wondering.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

its only in 1080i


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> I wonder if it's because i have such rich black levels....



when you have rich black levels it makes your color look too high,try turning the color down a little bit or just turn up SBRT one notch to 29 instead of 28.I too was using 28 for a while but then settled on 29 since it seems to be a better compromise of shadow detail and black level.


----------



## Napoleon D

My SBRT was calibrated to 24. If i were to raise that, wouldn't that be the same as merely raising the brightness (black level) control on the user menu? Also, aren't you supposed to calibrate black level based on the pluge patterns? Is it objective that the outer black boxes must always need to disappear?


I need to keep "color" where it is since that's the correct calibrated saturation point.


----------



## KenTech

irhxcbcziuzxs, SurfingMatt27 -- Please, you need to download and examine this *chart* so you can see all of the service-mode parameters that affect black level and brightness. You guys keep talking like SBRT is "the One" and that some value of SBRT is "Right." It's not and there isn't! Several settings *interact* to determine black level, and until you understand this, you will stay confused. SBRT=31 just happens to be in the middle of its range and has no special importance.


irhxcbcziuzxs - If you want to keep hammering on this one special problem you have, you might consider starting another thread that focuses on it. If your set is under warranty, ferchrissake get a tech to come out and look at it!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My SBRT was calibrated to 24. If i were to raise that, wouldn't that be the same as merely raising the brightness (black level) control on the user menu?



Yes.


> Quote:
> Also, aren't you supposed to calibrate black level based on the pluge patterns? Is it objective that the outer black boxes must always need to disappear?



Yes -- for the DVD input, at any rate. Broadcast black level varies all over the place, HD much less, and even some DVDs aren't dead-on. So -- you calibrate it for, say, dead-center on the Brightness control, then adjust to suit. You can't do any better. You'll at least know that when you return the Brightness slider to 31, it is at the calibrated point, and you can go from there.


> Quote:
> I need to keep "color" where it is since that's the correct calibrated saturation point.



Why? That varies a lot, too! Set the Color Slider=31 and adjust service-mode settings for correct color on DVD (UCOF, say), and you can use the internal test patterns to calibrate HD and SD/480i fairly closely, too. Again, then you'll know that dead-center on the Color slider is calibrated, and if color is too much or pale, it's the DVD or broadcast, not your set. Adjust accordingly.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *daltonlanny* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On widescreen or HD images with the black bars above the images there are now a relatively faint red line and blue line just above the picture that run horizontally across the entire screen.



You might have a vertical color-convergence misalignment. You need to display a fine white-line crosshatch pattern from DVE or the AVIA disk (or the first in each series of internal patterns) to see if it's a problem across different types of pictures. You can simulate different zoom and compressed-height situations by setting 2170P-4/IDSW to values higher than 0 (default). (Don't WRITE this one! Return it to zero.)


Unfortunately, vertical misconvergence is a magnet-corrected problem, and you would need to call a service tech to help -- but I got it done under the service warranty.


----------



## Napoleon D

Did i hear a hint of the lord's name taken in vain back there, and on Good Friday?? Then again, we all may have different lords so it might not even apply. I should not talk, I went to a Catholic school and I most likely will be having chicken for lunch today, so lightning is more likely to strike me before it gets to my tv antenna. Sorry, just a poor attempt at "Friday" humor.... could not resist.


I digress...


On my set, my calibrator used several test discs to compare the color from my XP-30, (making sure they all produced the same results for dvd/480p). There was even a new test disc he had downloaded online which seemed to interact accurately as well (I cannot remember the name of it, but he liked it). They all seemed to agree that the color slider on 32 (the midde/Pro offset on my set) was about a touch too low for the colors of my dvd player. This was just for my dvd player input, on other inputs for example, color-32 may very well be too high. But for dvd he adjusted SCOL from 32 to 33 to account for the difference - so the color slider could be left in the middle. He felt it better for the colors to be a touch too high than a touch too low. I actually thought the opposite, which is why i changed it back. The difference is very minimal. But yes, I always keep color slider at middle and do colors in SM for each input. I think that's what you were just referring to in your last post to me Ken.


Regarding SBRT, Ken is right. There are several items that adjust black level. I don't fiddle around with these because there are so many controls, my calibrator did fine the first time, and because I'm not quite skilled enough to manipulate all of these accurately.


Raising SBRT alone seems to merely be the same as raising brightness. You can tell there are other factors that come into play, as raising SBRT alone washes out your picture making it look ugly. You can feasibly raise SBRT, but there are other controls like BROF or SBOF and others that probably need to interact as well.


People's user menu settings are often different. If we all had our user menu settings in the middle, then we might be able to compare service menu settings a little more closely. If the set is properly calibrated, the guy who keeps brightness in the middle (50%) will most likely have a different SBRT level then the person who keeps brightness at 60%. A lot of us keep user controls at their offsets for Pro mode, and do the actual calibrating in the SM. This way if someone messes with the user menu, we will always know how to return to the correct settings by either sliding everything back to middle, or hitting "reset" on remote. Of course you have the option to change offsets, although most like the middle since it's easier to remember. My only point, is that if we swap notes on SM settings, we also need to what the user menu settings are at, since they control how much of these things are at use.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by daltonlanny
> 
> On widescreen or HD images with the black bars above the images there are now a relatively faint red line and blue line just above the picture that run horizontally across the entire screen



daltonlanny - My display has a slight hint of this as well. This was even present right after ISF calibration. I don't think it's much to worry about. Even when my set is converged as tight as possible, there is still a hint of blue poking out behind the cross/line. The reason for this I've heard is because: of the 3 colors, Sony televisions cannot seem to focus the blues as well as the green and red. As for the red line you see as well, all i can tell you is that red is usually the second color to misconverge on my set behind blue. But this is ever so subtle and can be ignored quite easily. Of all the problems i've seen or heard about from other sets, we're doing quite well if this is our only problem.


----------



## ragingd

Hey guys I need some help. I changed the default settings for GAMM 1(pro mode) in the SM and I didn't write down the default settings. Can anybody tell me what the default settings are? I have the 34xbr910. Thanks for any help


----------



## Mathesar

I guess this post would be for KenTech or anyone familiar with the Audio settings in the Service menu, I went into my 32HS510 service menu and wrote down all 21 audio settings in hopes of getting my XBR960 sounding better , for some reason the HS510 has noticeably better audio especially in the bass output, I had both TV's running the same channel and made sure *all* audio settings in the user menu where matched on both when comparing.


A lot of the service menu defaults are different on my XBR960 so ill be changing those to match my HS510 soon, but the one setting im curious about is #0 ASYS , According to KenTech's info on Audio a value of 1 means enabled and 0 "disables all effects", well on my HS510 this is set to 1 and on my XBR960 its set to 0. When I change it to 1 it sounds a little bit worse to me, Perhaps Sony changed this with the XBR960? I believe 0 means On and 1 is Off in the XBR's case.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ragingd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I changed the default settings for GAMM 1(pro mode) in the SM and I didn't write down the default settings. Can anybody tell me what the default settings are? I have the 34xbr910. Thanks for any help



The defaults are likely the same for the XBR960 and other DA-4 sets.


I don't know what you mean by "GAMM 1." For Pro mode and for *all* inputs and video modes, GAMM should be set to 0.


GAMM=0 points to a column in the table for the 4 values of GAMS~GAMB. They all should be set to zero, as well. So if you have set GAMM to 0, check the next four items for 0, too.


Does this answer your question?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A lot of the service menu defaults are different on my XBR960 so ill be changing those to match my HS510 soon, but the one setting im curious about is #0 ASYS , According to KenTech's info on Audio a value of 1 means enabled and 0 "disables all effects", well on my HS510 this is set to 1 and on my XBR960 its set to 0. When I change it to 1 it sounds a little bit worse to me, Perhaps Sony changed this with the XBR960? I believe 0 means On and 1 is Off in the XBR's case.



I think the XBR960 has slightly different speakers (a super-tweeter?) and maybe a different subwoofer than my huge 36XS955. But the charts show the same 21-parameter list for all of these sets.


ASYS is the switch that turns on all audio effects, such as equalizer and tone controls. 1 is ON.


TRCV, BACV, and MDCV (treble, bass, midrange) determine the qualitative *behavior* of the EQ controls -- whether they're manual adjustments or somehow dynamic (volume-dependent). What I determined was that when they were all set to 2, I had the equivalent of a three-band equalizer in the parameters STRE, SBAS, and MIDL (again, treble, bass, and midrange). I got very uncolored sound by setting those three thus:


(In group order) MIDL=6, SBAS=7, and STRE=9. SInce you have an XBR960, your tweeters might be more aggressive than mine, and maybe a lower STRE would work better.


I don't remember what I concluded about SVHI amd SVLO, but I have them both at the default 4.


LOFQ has something to do with deep bass. I raised it from 0 to 5. Lovely!


I have not determined exactly what MIDT, TRFQ, and PSEF do, and so I left them at default values of 0, 7, and 5.


AGCL determines how the (poor) auto-volume level feature works (SteadySound), and I found it ineffective at the default of 9. I have since changed it to 2, but the feature isn't very sophisticated, anyway.


I got get very effective "theater-bass" enhancement from the TruSurround feature, by leaving the five values of BBE~BB2L at their defaults of 1-5-4-5-4.


When TruSurround is on:

BBE seems to be a switch for treble, with 1 = ON. I leave it at 1.

BBEP affects upper-midrange-treble. Can make sound nasal or distant-sounding.

BBEL and BB2L are for (I think) bass and deep bass. (It's possible I have those descriptions reversed; but it's easy to tell when you're listening to a thumpy sound track.)

I have no idea what BB2P does yet.


I have left TRS1 and TRS2 at the defautls of 4 and 2.


So . . . this means that my current, very satisfactory settings are, in order:


1-2-2-2-4-4-6-5-7-0-9-7-5-2 -- 1-5-4-5-4 -- 4-2


The charts imply that the "BB" or bass-boost settings also affect the other audio modes (Off, SteadySound, etc.). I haven't experimented. I perceive that the sound is less warm with much less (or less exaggerated) deep bass when I shut off TruSurround, but I haven't yet tried to EQ "Off" to match TruSurround. Maybe that's a lost cause.


I have to say: As an exprienced audiophile, I am very impressed with the sound of this TV! Voice was honky out of the box, and there was some kind of annoying dynamic audio thing going on, until I set up TRCV, BACV, and MDCV at 2 and made EQ adjustments, as detailed above. Now I'm very pleased. (Some of the models may not have subwoofers, by the way.)


While I was working on the audio settings, it seemed to me that the 3 settings of TRCV~MDCV were "remembered" even after a power-cycle with no WRITE. But unplugging and replugging the set always "erased" the errant settings, returning them to normal.


----------



## Mathesar

Once again thanks for your informative post!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ASYS is the switch that turns on all audio effects, such as equalizer and tone controls. 1 is ON.



I believe this is backwards on XBR960's , After further testing with ASYS setting it to 1 is definately DISABLING something , I was playing MP3 tracks on my Xbox360 and when setting ASYS to 1 *all* bass output is lost and it sounds very flat, using the default 0 settings sounds much better with way more bass output.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I believe this is backwards on XBR960's , After further testing with ASYS setting it to 1 is definately DISABLING something , I was playing MP3 tracks on my Xbox360 and when setting ASYS to 1 *all* bass output is lost and it sounds very flat, using the default 0 settings sounds much better with way more bass output.



This really is a puzzle! Why would this trivial switch be reversed between two examples of the same chassis? Weird, indeed!


----------



## mortaldivine

Can I get some quick tips to fix my green issue?

Certain scenes or objects in the scene just seem to green.

I have these set to GYR-6 and GYB-3.

I think the green issue is only happening in dark scenes. Is that a grayscale issue?

Any tips would help or else I'll have to finish reading all 50 pages


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This really is a puzzle! Why would this trivial switch be reversed between two examples of the same chassis? Weird, indeed!



It's been a while since I tweaked the "audio"(it's not all that important as I usually use "external" audio) - therefore I forget some of the "details" -- but If I recall correctly believe I'm getting the same results as Mathesar with my XBR960 concerning ASYS ....


In any case, here is what I ended up preferring :


ASYS - 0

TRCV - 2

BACV - 2

MDCV - 2

SVHI - 4

SVLO - 4

MIDL - 6

LOFQ - 5

SBAS - 7

MIDT - 0

STRE - 9

TRFQ - 7

PSEF - 5

AGCL - 4


BBE+TRS1/2 settings remain at defaults.


----------



## mortaldivine




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mortaldivine* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can I get some quick tips to fix my green issue?
> 
> Certain scenes or objects in the scene just seem to green.
> 
> I have these set to GYR-6 and GYB-3.
> 
> I think the green issue is only happening in dark scenes. Is that a grayscale issue?
> 
> Any tips would help or else I'll have to finish reading all 50 pages



Is it the GCUT or GDRV I should try? Im confused on the difference between GCUT, GDRV, GYR and GYB. I have the Avia disk. Is there a specific pattern I can use to correct this?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mortaldivine* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is it the GCUT or GDRV I should try? Im confused on the difference between GCUT, GDRV, GYR and GYB. I have the Avia disk. Is there a specific pattern I can use to correct this?



For grayscale only, use any gray step-scale pattern from any test DVD or turn down the Color slider all the way on any program material. _CUT works at the near-black end of the brightness scale; use to adjust darkest tone to be neutral. _DRV (drive) works at the white end of the scale. Adjust to establish the color of neutral white (color temperature). You should be able to achieve a near-perfect black-and-white picture with no colorations.


RYR, RYB, GYR, and GYB have *nothing* to do with grayscale. They determine how color is balanced _when there's color in the program_. Here's where the test patterns (color bars, the 75% color blocks on DVE, flashing color segments on AVIA, etc.) really make it easy. Follow the instructions on the disk. *After* you adjust for the *amount* of color with the Color slider (the blue filter or blue guns only), you can adjust the above four color-decoding parameters using red and green filters/guns. (Turning on individual colors with 2170P-2/SRGB is way prefereble to the color filters!)


I'll bet you have grayscale issues, and you can do very well if you just set the above RYR~GYB series to 14-14-6-4, and work on grayscale. Getting the grayscale right is *very* important.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In any case, here is what I ended up preferring :
> 
> 
> ASYS - 0



Yep. Another example of the mystery. Note that even the service-manual charts _for the XBR960_ show ASYS=1 as the default.


----------



## Mathesar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yep. Another example of the mystery. Note that even the service-manual charts _for the XBR960_ show ASYS=1 as the default.



Hrm no big deal I guess but 0 is certainly the default on my XBR960, Also in your Improving The AUDIO thread you mention this at the bottom of the page:



> Quote:
> For the 34XBR960, Sony's data chart lists 0-2-0-2-4-4-10-0-8--10--5-9. (The first value of 0 has to be a misprint!)



Perhaps its not a misprint after all?










I was able to improve the audio by changing everything to my 32HS510's default values and then slightly tweaking it from there, It now has better bass response and got rid of the annoying upper midrange loudness it has by default, It's still not quite as good as the HS510 overall but at least I got some improvement out of it.


----------



## mortaldivine




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For grayscale only, use any gray step-scale pattern from any test DVD or turn down the Color slider all the way on any program material. _CUT works at the near-black end of the brightness scale; use to adjust darkest tone to be neutral. _DRV (drive) works at the white end of the scale. Adjust to establish the color of neutral white (color temperature). You should be able to achieve a near-perfect black-and-white picture with no colorations.
> 
> 
> RYR, RYB, GYR, and GYB have *nothing* to do with grayscale. They determine how color is balanced _when there's color in the program_. Here's where the test patterns (color bars, the 75% color blocks on DVE, flashing color segments on AVIA, etc.) really make it easy. Follow the instructions on the disk. *After* you adjust for the *amount* of color with the Color slider (the blue filter or blue guns only), you can adjust the above four color-decoding parameters using red and green filters/guns. (Turning on individual colors with 2170P-2/SRGB is way prefereble to the color filters!)
> 
> 
> I'll bet you have grayscale issues, and you can do very well if you just set the above RYR~GYB series to 14-14-6-4, and work on grayscale. Getting the grayscale right is *very* important.



When I look at those gray steps on my avai dvd, I dont see any colorization besides besides black, white and gray...no green. So does that mean its not a grayscale issue?


----------



## hidesertforester

I need a little help setting the RYR-RYB-GYR-GYB codes.


I have the Avia disk with the filters but there's three colors and four settings. I'd like to be more systematic about this than just blindly changing things. What do each of the four settings stand for?


I currently have them set at 13-15-5-3 but skintones still seem too red. Where do I go from here?


----------



## Napoleon D

hidesertforester -


I am currently debating between 13-15-5-3 and 14-14-6-4. Most folks here will tell you that 14-14-6-4 is the closest to perfection - in adherence to color calibration and realistic skin tones. I think 14-14-6-4 looks the closest and most realistic, and eliminates a bit of the redness you're seeing in favor of very realistic skin tones.


My consensus is that the best colors lie somewhere between 13-15-5-3 and 14-14-6-4. When i ran this by my calibrator, he told me that indeed, the most precise colors usually end up being in-between some of the numbers. (Like RYR would be best at 13.5 as opposed to 14). Of all the settings though, 14-14-6-4 seems to get the closest given all the variables.


I think there's a tad too much green with 14-14-6-4, while a tad too much red in 13-15-5-3. Both work very well with the color calibration, as well as visually testing out with dvd material for realism. Of everything, those 2 color decoding patterns look the best of everything i've seen. 13-15-5-3 seems to be easier on the eyes, which is why i prefer that to 14-14-6-4. (it could be that reds are easier to see than greens -- making the picture seem sharper -- but that's just my own theory). But ignoring that, i think 14-14-6-4 gives a slight edge for realism, and seems to agree a little more with the Avia color patterns.


Again, each will get you extremely close. I personally think the best setting would lie somewhere in-between what i mentioned above. As one setting i feel has a tad more green, while the other has a bit more red. We're talking extreme precision here, but overall i think 14-14-6-4 "looks" the best. If the 13-15 setting didn't create a little less eye-train for me with my display, i would go with the 14-14 one for sure.


I understand you don't want to "blindly" set them. Someone else here can give you a description of what RYR is as opposed to RYB. I have understood the former to be color saturation, while the other is tint. There is a way to calibrate them based on an avia color pattern. Again, someone else can tell you exactly how to go about that, and why there are 4 controls, as opposed to 6. But after color calibration, about 90% of us have come out to a result that's one of the 2 settings i mentioned above. Most, who are the most accurate and precise, come out to 14-14-6-4.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

For me it was either 14-14-6-4 or 15-15-6-4.


I choose the first one because the second one while good red was a bit desaturated, the first one is dead on by using DVE.


Same thing goes for SBRT at 28 or 29 i still can't seem to find a hapy medium and it seems the pefect setting is something in between like 28.5.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Well, I back with a new round of questions regarding the proportions of my 34" 955. I have been trying to optimize the picture geometry and made a discovery: my 4:3 (Normal) mode picture measured 21 1/4" by 16 3/4". Not quite 4:3. So, I need to extend the horizontal length to around 22". It seems the only way I can accomplish this is with the Blanking parameters. Is this correct? My thoughts are: if I have the raster sized correctly and the picture sized correctly on the raster, then the scaling that is performed by the image processor will be more correct. I start to see fewer artifacts if the picture proportions are correct. So, the correct raster size is my first priority.

The service manual's outline of the raster centering seems weird to me (with the AGNG setting and LANG settings?!?) At any rate, I guess I should only concern myself with the adjustments in "Full"mode.

My other issue is shown below:










I am at a loss for a way of removing this hideous shift. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Regards,


Bryan


----------



## DSperber

Just to enter my own comment on the 13-15-5-3 vs. 14-14-6-4 debate, I have settled on 13-15-5-4 (note that last digit is truly 4, not 3). And I'm guessing the values one settles on is related to other values you have set elsewhere (in the user menu specifically) which also relate to color. Also, the particular input and source on that input is clearly quite relevant.


For example, while I have PRO set, I also have "color temp = cool" and "color axis = default". Obviously these user menu "tilts" affect how 13-15-5-4 (in the service menu) looks to me.


I have different user menu values for each of the four inputs I utilize (two SD and two HD), and 13-15-5-4 seems to provide perfectly realistic color to me on each of the following:


INPUT1: (D* satellite via S-video), picture=39, bright=33, color=34, hue=0, sharp=21, DRC=progressive


INPUT3: (JVC 40K for S-VHS via S-video), picture=40, bright=34, color=34, hue=0, sharp=19, DRC=progressive


INPUT5: (SD DVD player at 480p via component), picture=34, bright=36, color=36, hue=G1, sharp=min, DRC=cinemotion


INPUT6: (720p/1080i from DCT6412, JVC DT100U, JVC 40k, all via component), picture=35, bright=32, color=31, hue=0, sharp=min, DRC=n/a



Note: 13-15-5-4 (for me) was decided upon after using DVE to adjust color and brightness in the user menu. The adjustment was done while watching Leno, which in my opinion is a reference-quality show that has overall excellent color and lots of skin tone to adjust for. There was a decided red push before adjusting these four color controls in 2170P-4, and the final values were settled on using Leno's show as the benchmark.


----------



## Napoleon D

I think i've now settled on 13-15-5-3. I've compared that to 14-14-6-4 many times. They are both VERY close with the color test. I think the former has a more attractive look to it personally. I can compare the 2 all night on dvd scenes, and they both look accurate and realistic. And between those, I think the 13-15 one has a more attractive look to it. It tones down the greens just a little, while upping the reds just a hint... while still looking realistic.


I thought that while the 14-14-6-4 had a bit more of a realistic skin tone, it had a little too much green, and dulled the image for me. The 13-15-5-3 worked just as well with the calibration, and also happens to have a more vivid/punchier (but still realistic) image.


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Mathesar*
Hrm no big deal I guess but 0 is certainly the default on my XBR960, Also in your Improving The AUDIO thread you mention this at the bottom of the page: Perhaps its not a misprint after all?
Well, not a misprint, exactly. There is considerable ambiguity in Sonys own documentation, and I think we have to guess at what applies to our particular sets. It certainly confused me! See attached files for clarification.


I have *two* revisions of the DA-4 service manual, publication #9-965-965-01 of 6/2004 (Rev01Cover.pdf) and the latest available last spring, rev 2/2005 #9-965-965-05 (Rev05Cover.pdf).


The tables for AUDIO are different. (Rev01+05Tables.pdf) I now see that the earlier one (top) shows ASYS=0 and a set of values identified as KD-34XBR960 Service Data Only, even though the manual is identified as applying to all of the DA-4 sets (see cover).


The later manual, with the same cover but listing many revisions, has a table (bottom) whose heading says KD-30XS955...36XS955 Service Data Only, but also shows to the right of the data: 34XBR/34XS/30XS/36XS. What are we to make of this?


Finally the values listed as none actually contain values in my 36XS955: MIDT=0 and TRFQ=7, both defaults. Maybe none means that tese settings are there but have no effect if changed. I havent tested them lately.


Based on this, I say: Use your ears! If ASYS=0 is the obvious choice for your model. and ASYS=1 obviously turns off everything of value to you, use ASYS=0 and consider the values in the earlier table as your defualts. In my case the later table reresented my 36XS955 perfectly as delivered, and Im going from there. You can see why I thought ASYS=1 was a universal default setting! Sorry for the confusion; it looks like the XBR960 is different, indeed.


This is yet another example of ambiguity or error in the service manuals; there are quite a few other examples, too!

 

Rev01Cover.pdf 30.1015625k . file

 

Rev05Cover.pdf 47.3984375k . file

 

Rev01+05Tables.pdf 53.7421875k . file


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am currently debating between 13-15-5-3 and 14-14-6-4. Most folks here will tell you that 14-14-6-4 is the closest to perfection - in adherence to color calibration and realistic skin tones. I think 14-14-6-4 looks the closest and most realistic, and eliminates a bit of the redness you're seeing in favor of very realistic skin tones. My consensus is that the best colors lie somewhere between 13-15-5-3 and 14-14-6-4.



You have, of course, two user-menu "Color Axis" settings, Default and Monitor, that you can set up any way you like. I hope you are taking full advantage of this to test out your settings preferences.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

To follow-up my first question, I should ask people who know: Is the scaling by the image processor applied based on the size of the raster itself or the picture that is layered over the raster. I ask because based on the picture of the huge image shift shown on the internal crosshatch pattern I provided in my last post, this shift is only translated to the screen when watching cable. It does not manifest in the picture if I am viewing a DVD. Is there an explanation for this?

I am still having a hard time getting the proportions of my screen (like when viewing a crosshatch pattern) to be linear from top to bottom and left to right. I have tried the VLIN and VSCO for vert and SLIN for horizontal, but there is always some compression of the image in various places. That is why I am trying to start with a correctly sized raster and go from there. Do geometry settings affect the raster or image? I'm sure I can work this out, I just need some of the basic concepts explained.

Also, I think I have my raster size and positions in general agreement with the service manual, but this makes my MID2 settings seem quite extreme. Some even run out of room to adjust all together. Does anyone have a better/more systematic approach to working out this raster sizing? Specifically, how do you make sure you are viewing the raster's edge? My process starts with shrinking the raster to a low number and then expanding the picture with the MID2 settings until the edge of the picture (again, the internal 1080 crosshatch pattern) just starts to disappear. This, to me, seems to identify the raster edge. Am I completely wrong?

Please lend me some advice and thank you for your time.


Bryan


----------



## Napoleon D




> Quote:
> You have, of course, two user-menu color-matrix settings that you can set up any way you like. (They're called, what?, Monitor and Normal?) I hope you are taking full advantage of this to test out your settings preferences.



I don't believe have those options on my user menu. This might be another example of different displays, different settings.


Quick sidenote - my color decoding settings did not work for the Toshiba HD player. But perhaps their colors may need to be calibrated differently altogether. By the way, this player upconverts beautifully for SD dvd's. It produces a better image than the XP.... a little better. And that is saying a lot! But that discussion is for another thread.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't believe have those options on my user menu. This might be another example of different displays, different settings.



Not even under the "Advanced"settings? It's really called "Color Axis," and the choices are Default and Monitor.


----------



## Napoleon D




> Quote:
> Not even under the "Advanced"settings? It's really called "Color Axis," and the choices are Default and Monitor.



In my advanced menu, for my KP-57ws520, there is no color axis feature in the User Menu.


There is a color value called "Axis" in the service menu. The value of this "axis" ranges from 0 to 3. Out-of-the-box, each axis value referred to a different color decoding pattern. This is similar to how the mide/pop value points to different set of mide columns. So...for the sake of science, I tried setting each axis value to the same pattern (14-14-6-4 for example), and then toggled through each of the Axis's, and i saw no difference. I currently have axis set to "1."


----------



## AncientOne

My new CRT finally arrived yesterday.







In the interim I took the television down to the bare plastic parts, fixed any nicks, sanded with very fine wet paper, cleaned with ammonia/water solution & painted the set gloss black with Fussion for plastic followed by 1500 grit sanding before laying down the final wet coat.


The set looks like a beautiful piano gloss black now to match my entertainment equipment. Makes the set look less bulky & the black actually improves the picture a little. I do not recommend anyone do this unless they are out of warranty, have a few nicks, happen to need a new CRT & are unhappy with gray.


I was pleasantly surprised to have lucked out & gotten an American made CRT which is becoming rare.


Installed it into the set & put the chassis back in. Fired it up & to my amazement it was almost dead-on upon initial fire up. I plan to let the tube burn in for a while before going through the entire setup, high voltage, purity, convergence & calibration. Right now it looks almost as good as any set looks right out of the box. Looks like this tube will not require any magnets at all.


My set also had a problem with the "BY" board which I repaired myself by replacing the CXA2170Q IC. That was a most delicate soldering job. 64 pins that are extremely close together.


Set has been up & running for 18 hours now & is working fine. This picture tube is much crisper than the one that was in it before.


Looking forward to what this set will do once dialed in.


Will be playing with the internal patterns, my generator & KenTech's patterns along with the DVE disc. Time to have a little fun with this thing.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So...for the sake of science, I tried setting each axis value to the same pattern (14-14-6-4 for example), and then toggled through each of the Axis's, and i saw no difference. I currently have axis set to "1."



But all you've proved is that, when you set them all the same, they look the same. It seems to me you'd want to set the four columns to *different* values, and *then* cycle through the four values of AXIS to see how the four settings-groups differ. (The bummer is that you can't do this outside of service mode.)


----------



## in2h2o

How do I enter the service menu on my 36XS955? Thanks


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *in2h2o* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How do I enter the service menu on my 36XS955? Thanks



See message #3 in this thread.


----------



## Napoleon D




> Quote:
> But all you've proved is that, when you set them all the same, they look the same. It seems to me you'd want to set the four columns to *different* values, and *then* cycle through the four values of AXIS to see how the four settings-groups differ. (The bummer is that you can't do this outside of service mode.)



What I was trying to prove here -- by seeing that all four axis values all look alike with the same 4 values of color decoding each -- is that you can have a choice of up to 4 color decoding settings among the several inputs. The value you have for "Axis" on each input is not global, but the color decoding pattern linked to it is. In other words, for component you could have Aixis=2, while for HDMI have Axis=1. From what i'm understanding, you don't have to settle on one color decoding pattern for all of the inputs.


I did not see the significance of cycling through the 4 Axis values too much. All i had to do was take note of which RYB-GYB pattern was linked to each Axis value. I would get the same effect by merely entering in each of these respective color decoding patterns into say, Axis-0, to see how they looked.


I still have the default values, for the other Axis's i'm not using, stored in there -- since i'm not 100% sure the full effect of changing axis, and to keep original settings in tact. I am keeping my Axis how it is, although i was very curious to know how it truly functions. It seems to me it only points to the 4 different color decoding values. If it's not doing anything else than that, then what i said might be true, but if it affects something else, then not.


Does anyone out there know the full effect of the "Axis" value? All that i said above is just a guess from what i've seen, if i'm wrong someone correct me.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

I think my posts got lost in the shuffle. Could anyone respond to my posts #1460 and #1465.


Thank you,


Bryan


----------



## GlenC

Bryan,


AFIK, the image is displayed within the raster. The Sony should be aligned from the factory with the raster centered. All of the SM adjustments align the picture within the raster.


It's been a while since I have done the geometry on a Sony DV, however my approach has been to do the master geometry in 2170D-1/2/3, first, then use the MID1/2/3 to tweak the individual configurations. It can be very time consuming and may need to go through the whole process many times to converge on a final configuration that works for all inputs.


The severe image shift in your picture is usually from the image being shifted too far. At times, on some TVs, the only way to eliminate this is with overscan.


It is also best if you can use a source test pattern. Internal test patterns are fine, however your source may shift the image or be sized slightly different.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Thank you for the reply, Glen! Regarding the shift at the bottom, you stated that it was from the image being shifted too far. Could you elaborate?

Also, would color banding (false contours) come from the inadequicies of the source material or is it a function of the interal processing of the monitor? (Both?)

I am trying to "scientifically"







decipher the "cause and effect" of the adjustments I am making.

Again, thanks for your time.


Bryan


----------



## mortaldivine




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For grayscale only, use any gray step-scale pattern from any test DVD or turn down the Color slider all the way on any program material. _CUT works at the near-black end of the brightness scale; use to adjust darkest tone to be neutral. _DRV (drive) works at the white end of the scale. Adjust to establish the color of neutral white (color temperature). You should be able to achieve a near-perfect black-and-white picture with no colorations.
> 
> 
> RYR, RYB, GYR, and GYB have *nothing* to do with grayscale. They determine how color is balanced _when there's color in the program_. Here's where the test patterns (color bars, the 75% color blocks on DVE, flashing color segments on AVIA, etc.) really make it easy. Follow the instructions on the disk. *After* you adjust for the *amount* of color with the Color slider (the blue filter or blue guns only), you can adjust the above four color-decoding parameters using red and green filters/guns. (Turning on individual colors with 2170P-2/SRGB is way prefereble to the color filters!)
> 
> 
> I'll bet you have grayscale issues, and you can do very well if you just set the above RYR~GYB series to 14-14-6-4, and work on grayscale. Getting the grayscale right is *very* important.



I checked my GDRV and GCUT and they are both set to 24. If I turn it down past 18, it starts to go red. I know every TV can be different but what do you guys have yours set to?


----------



## in2h2o




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> See message #3 in this thread.



How did I miss that?? Thanks Ken


----------



## AncientOne

I'm trying to set screen (g2) on the flyback & the technical manual is not clear.


It says to input a white field into Video 1.


Set to service mode & adjust as follows:


Fig 1. CXA2170P-2 PICO 1->0


The operation procedure says:


1) In full mode, apply changes in figure 1.


2) Mount G2 adjustment jig. Adjust cathode voltage if the standard is not met. Standard varies by CRT size.


3) Adjust G2 by flyback transformer (t8001).


4) Return data changes in 1) to original condition.


The only standard listed is 170 +/- 5 Vdc


My question is where do you get the adjustment jig? The tech manual does not specify which pin to take the measurement from or where any jumpers would be installed.


Anyone familiar with this or have a tech manual that is more clear than mine? If this is not the right forum any help pointing me to the correct one would be appreciated.


I think I have it set close enough now but I wanted to follow procedure. Everywhere I have looked everyone seems a little confused about Sony's procedure on this.


----------



## Dorn

If this thread wasn't 74+ pages, I wouldn't posting this.


I need to fix the overscan on my television. I have the 30HD420. The overscan is nearly an inch off, it's bad. How do I go about fixing this?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dorn* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If this thread wasn't 74+ pages, I wouldn't posting this.
> 
> 
> I need to fix the overscan on my television. I have the 30HD420. The overscan is nearly an inch off, it's bad. How do I go about fixing this?



There is a "Search This Thread" feature at the top of the page. Could you try this first, please? It has, indeed, been discussed before in this thread.


----------



## Napoleon D

Dorn - or if you can't find anything on AVS-search (you should be able to find a lot with the right search) try doing a google search for "fix overscan." I saw a couple websites that might lead you in the right direction.


Everyone else - I talked a little earlier about this, and searched the site and didn't find much. What is the function of the "Axis" value in the service menu? It sounds like a lot of you have a color axis feature in your user menus. On my set, there is none, but in the service menu, adjacent to the color decoder values (RYR-GYB) there is a value called "Axis." I discussed it above briefly in what i've found with it. After experimenting more, I've found that the image seems a little different when switching "axis" from 0 to 1, even when each is linked to the same color-decoder sequences.


On another note, I found a color-decoding pattern I like a little better. I calibrated my set to 14-14-4-3, it seemed the best with the DVE test pattern. It also aesthetically looks the best for dvd's. I liked 14-14-6-4, and as uniform as it looks on the DVE pattern, I felt the greens showed up just a touch too dark on the pattern, which was evident in dvd's (there seemed to be a slight push of green in many scenes). 13-15-5-3 worked as well, eliminating the greens but adding a bit too much red i thought. I was searching for some compromise, and found 14-14-4-3 as working rather well to balance things off. Another fellow with my same display also found this. There seems to be no push of one color with this.


----------



## Nitewatchman

It just took me about 30 seconds to use the "search" this thread function for "overscan" and pull out a couple of helpful posts out of the 128 results for the search which turned up. Here are a couple of links to a couple of those posts which should hopefully be useful :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6261395 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6260514 


The "search this thread" function is very useful ... However, as one who has followed along with this thread from the very beginning - to get the most use of it, there is probably no substitiute for spending quite a bit of time researching and "pulling out" the info from this thread that you're interested in. Certianly, it is unfortunate there is a lot to "wade" through for someone new to this thread, but that's just the way things are. Also, you'll find updated and "improved" or corrected/etc. info in some cases in later posts, so in some cases you don't want to necessary use the info from the first "post" you find on any given subject. I think that's what works best on a forum/thread such as this -- Read and research and try to find what you are looking for first, and *then*, when/if necessary - ask questions.


In my case, when I was following along with this thread, I copied the info/posts I was most interested in and put them in a Word Doc file. Sorry, I can't forward that to anyone that might be interested as I also included placed quite a few PM's in the document and it would be extremely difficult to remove those + only include the "public" posts, and I also became *neligent* in updating the document when I began spending more time posting .... Besides, that file is about 150pages long, so it's not necessarily going to be much easier to sift through for folks looking for "quick" info on a specific subject ....


I just don't think we can keep repeating info over+over+over again(that's one of the reasons this thread is as long as it is), as, for one thing it requires "beyond the call of duty" effort from the folks who are providing the excellent info(probaby Ken in particular). I also expect in many cases the poster asking questions+looking for "quick" answers will spend just as much time(along with the poster who is trying to answer his questions) with "new" posts rehashing info that has been posted before(often in *extreme* detail) as would be the case via a little research ...


If anyone happens to have a lot of extra time on their hands -- I've often thought that a post with an "index" to the URL's to the most useful posts in this thread might be very useful for new folks ... Perhaps someone(or a "group" of folks) who are going back through this thread and pulling out the most useful posts could do this without it being a lot of "extra" work for them ....


Just my .02 cents FWIW ....


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dorn* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If this thread wasn't 74+ pages, I wouldn't posting this.
> 
> 
> I need to fix the overscan on my television. I have the 30HD420. The overscan is nearly an inch off, it's bad. How do I go about fixing this?



My opinion is: if you don't want to spend the time to read and learn, then hire a local calibrator to fix it for you. You won't have to spend the time to read the thread and won't have to spend all the time to fix overscan.


One thing to note here, many that get involved in "tweaking", will generally spend more time tweaking than reading the thread. There is a wealth of information in this thread, thanks to the countless hours of tweaking and analyzing that has been done by a few participants.


It's really lame to see a thread 1400+ posts long and just ask for a quick fix answer.


----------



## justsc

The "value" to me in reading through this whole thread has been tremendous. At first, I admit that I wanted to quickly "tweak" to perfection. So I started from the beginning. I only needed to read the first few pages to learn that "quick" was an unrealistic expectation, and "tweak" was a wholly unrealistic approach.


The first lesson I gained in reading this thread was "process." That what I wanted to do meant beginning a process, for both the tv and for my education. I haven't gotten very far yet. Along with a proper Avia user menu calibration, I have adjusted for overscan, picture centering and size, red push, and various "sharpness" adjustments in the SM. That's it! I will do much more but I like to really test my adjustments over decent periods of time to decide if I even like what I've done. And from my job I learned that you change one thing at a time in order to discern what adjustment caused what change.


I so appreciate all of those who have contributed to this thread. I get so much out of the give and take on each subject, and the times when they get revisited as new info comes to light. More and more I'm inclined to refuse to give out quick-fix SM adjustments. So often, I learn that the person I thought I was helping failed to record original values, or something else and is now posting all over the place trying to get more quick-fixes. On another forum I frequent, the mods and regulars have resorted to "read the FAQ" or "read this sticky." I think that's where I'm headed.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Excellent posts GlenC+Justsc! I couldn't agree more with everything in your posts ...


Also I hope Dorn doesn't take our responses the wrong way -- As I was thinking it might appear as if we are "picking on him" and singling him out, since it's certianly not the first time such a comment as "I don't want to dig through this thread to find the answer" has been posted here ... I just think it's good several of us have pointed out some of the "problems" involved with that "approach" .....


I do hope someone can answer AncientOne's question about the jig for G2 voltage adjustment, as I don't think the issue in this case involves a question that has been answered previously in the thread, instead I suspect no-one has came across an adequete answer for him yet ... It in fact may be one of the very few questions posed on this thread(if not the only one!) which has not, as of yet received an adequete response ....



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My opinion is: if you don't want to spend the time to read and learn, then hire a local calibrator to fix it for you. You won't have to spend the time to read the thread and won't have to spend all the time to fix overscan.



Just to add .... Let's see ... How can I put this as I don't mean for this to sound like an "ad" for ISF calibration, and personally I enjoy "doing it myself" as much as possible(to the best of my ability+with the tools+info I have available) ....


But if it's solely the *cost* of a "Pro" calibration that is an issue for folks -- my opinion is --- don't let it be - As perhaps unless you're already very familiar with the "workings" of your particular set(and even then, I suspect you're still going to end up spending a lot of time on it) -- By the time you're "done" and have spent many many hours researching and working on your set --- I suspect It is extremely likely You *will* have felt you've put much more time and effort into it than the cost of a calibration ....


----------



## +1chromosome

wow this thread has been good to me : ]


I have one question, is there a way to influence the refresh-rate on the 34955? I can see that I get some ghosting with bright games (60fps or more) that have contrasting black backgrounds --- just a little light trail.


I remember reading somewhere in this massive thread about being able to crank your refresh-rate up to 80hz... or maybe i was mistaken ..... maybe confused...


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *+1chromosome* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can see that I get some ghosting with bright games (60fps or more) that have contrasting black backgrounds --- just a little light trail. I remember reading somewhere in this massive thread about being able to crank your refresh-rate up to 80hz... or maybe i was mistaken ..... maybe confused...



Please read *this message* .


Refresh rate has no bearing on phosphor trailing. This TV is not a multisync monitor, and the refresh rate is sync'd to the video standard for which it was intended: 60 or 50Hz.


----------



## +1chromosome




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Please read *this message* .
> 
> 
> Refresh rate has no bearing on phosphor trailing. This TV is not a multisync monitor, and the refresh rate is sync'd to the video standard for which it was intended: 60 or 50Hz.



thanks, makes sense : ] much appreciated ---


I had a brilliant time tonight with the MID-1 settings --- they work for adjusting my 1080i when using my 360 --- I was able to get rid of almost ALL of the overscan --- for reference, I am able to see the ENTIRE blue HUD in GRAW (when before It would mostly crop out, with just 2170D-2 deflection adjusted --- and out of the box none of the blue HUD was visible)

here's a shot of GRAW: http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/7...g_3441518.html 


since my geometry was pretty good out of the box (and I just had 2170D-2 settings adjusted to account for overscan) I was able to revert back to my "out of box" settings and go with the MID-1 adjustments ---


it just seems too damn good to be true, a CRT with this little overscan --- something must be wrong







----- the image looks so insanely good, sized correctly, and I'm able to view almost the entire game resolution (it doesn't seem that "zoomed" effect that large overscan gives on some games)


if anyone experements with the MID-1 setting let me know what your experience is, and I'll keep you guys updated.


----------



## tanglemac76

I posted some pictures over in the KD30XS955 thread of a problem I'm having with my set. It was suggested that this problem might be fixable using codes in the service menu. I've searched this thread for variations on my problem, but I don't think I know the correct search terms to use. Based on the images in this post , do you think this is a problem that is addressable using the service menus? I'm trying to figure out if this is a warranty issue or not.


I also posted some more details here and here .


To summarize, I see mostly green (sometimes blue) fringes on the left side of 4:3 content, no matter the source or input selected. I also see green fringes inside the image in areas of high contrast edges, such as the side of a face against a dark background. Finally, the lines that form the boxes in the menus seem to be discolored. Horizontal lines are grey, but vertical lines are all blueish. I don't think this is normal. I've scanned this thread and searched for things like "green edges," "green fringe," etc, but I haven't found anything that fits. As I said above, I may not know the correct search terms to use for this issue. Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.


As a side note, I had warranty service on this set to address some red scanlines, and the tech said the lines were just coming from the signal source. I hadn't really noticed the problems along the sides of faces and other places yet, so I didn't have any reason to dispute him then.


----------



## Jinx

I think it may have been in here somewhere but i cant find it...


when i shrink my screen horizontally to check for overscan, i notice that about 1/2 of an inch at the VERY bottom is all slanted 90 degree's to the left.. this is normally hidden by the frame of the tv as they set it to be overscann at the factory, i find it odd tho that only the bottom does this.. Normal? any way to fix?..


also there's no tilt controll on these things is there, i find mine is SLIGHTLY to the right a bit too much...


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Jinx,

I have a picture of the problem you describe in my post #1460. It seems that there are a lot of people having this problem, but I still haven't heard any suggestions to correct it. Guess we are locked into 5%+ overscan all around! HOORAY!!!









I am also trying to find others that have a newish 955 model and can tell me how they are adjusting the 1080 and 480 picture modes when we don't have the MID3 settings that everyone else has. It would be nice to be able to adjust the screen and verify that there is a 1:1 translation of the image. Any information on how to check that would be appreciated.


...end rant.


Bryan


----------



## Jinx

Yep thats my problem exactly! looks like you have better geometry tho than me...


----------



## Ryck25007

So are the files in the first post dead? I cannot seem to download them.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ryck25007* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So are the files in the first post dead? I cannot seem to download them.



I just downloaded them, no problem. I guess on a PC you have to right-click, and save to disk.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *+1chromosome* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> wow this thread has been good to me : ]
> 
> 
> I have one question, is there a way to influence the refresh-rate on the 34955? I can see that I get some ghosting with bright games (60fps or more) that have contrasting black backgrounds --- just a little light trail.
> 
> 
> I remember reading somewhere in this massive thread about being able to crank your refresh-rate up to 80hz... or maybe i was mistaken ..... maybe confused...



The trails go away after a while, just give the tv time. As the tv ages it starts to get unnoticeable.


I've had my sony 34hs420 for almost 3 years now and i don't notice any trailing anymore.I had trailing like you when it was new but after a while it starts to go away.There is also reasons why it's so apparent, one could be too high a contrast setting or too low a brightness settings..either one can cause mtrailing if set too high or low.


----------



## hudsonkm

I've been trying to get the geometry right on my kv-30hs420 for quite some time now. The problem I am experiencing is that no matter how much I work to straighten the entire grid, I just can't seem to get the top left corner to align.


I took a photo of it and would really appreciate any advice/info what-so-ever on the issue. The angle is a bit off on the photo, but its enough to get an idea of what I am talking about.


Thanks in advance for any help!

Click here for photo


----------



## Joybutton

Reading (parts of) this thread has been a very informative and enlightening experience. It has been exactly what I was looking for, KenTech you are the best-est! I've been reading it for about two days now and my display model KV34HS420 is now looking WAY better than it did before I got it. When I first started reading these posts they were dated about a year ago and the topic is still live and kicking today! I haven't read all the pages, or even close, but I did follow all the guides in the early pages.


I seem to have almost all my issues fixed except for:


1 - A convergence issue I haven't seen mentioned yet, but I am still searching the thread. It seems related to the tilt control. It's as if the red is at 'tilt 1' and the blue is at 'tilt -1'. Basically, in the top left corner I can notice a slight red convergence artifact on top of the white horizontal grid lines. In the top right corner I can notice a slight blue artifact on top of the horizontal. If I could do a tilt on just the red or the blue, just a tiny bit, it would fix all the little convergence issues in the corners of my set, as far as I can tell. From what I've been reading, this is a magnet issue. But it seems like the 'tilt' function could fix this if it allows you to do a separate 'tilt' for each color. Of course, maybe that is something you need magnets for as well.


2 - I have a slight purity issue in the upper left corner, and another slight purity issue on the edge right by RUMB. I understand these might be fixable with the 'landing' settings, so I am searching more on that now. What I can't find is where the landing settings are on the KV34HS420? Is it supposed to be a catagory in the SM, because I don't seem to have one. If not, which catagory is it in?


Thanks for all your .jpgs and .pdfs KenTech! They really have helped to turn this floor model TV into something that almost looks brand new!


----------



## GlenC

Convergence on the horizontal lines cannot be done in the SM.


----------



## hudsonkm

Would the photo I posted represent a covergence issue? I've been a bit confused as to why I cant get the upper left corner to align.

Click here for photo


----------



## TOM H.

Jinx,

I've got a 2wk old 30XS955 that has the same 2 vertical "lines" in the same area as you've posted about on your set.

I was just wandering how noticable they are now after a few months and if you've been able to reduce them with some SM work.


Tom H.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs

Back to the talking of my TV

Ive messed with SBRT so much and its still at 31

and im still having the problem

thing is, i was having the same problem on my pc recently and instead of turning up the brightness i turned up the gamma and it fixed it completley, maybe ive just been messing with the wrong setting


----------



## hudsonkm

Well I bit the bullet, gathered my courage and read over most of the kv-30hs420 service manual for safety precautions.


After which I removed the back and took a look at the magnets. Surprisingly the one sony had in the corner of question was losing its grip from the sticky tape and nearly hanging off.


I repositioned it and purchased some new mounting tape.


Viola corner geometry is fairly exact now







Well as much as it could be on a crt.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hudsonkm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well I bit the bullet, gathered my courage and read over most of the kv-30hs420 service manual for safety precautions.
> 
> 
> After which I removed the back and took a look at the magnets. Surprisingly the one sony had in the corner of question was losing its grip from the sticky tape and nearly hanging off.
> 
> 
> I repositioned it and purchased some new mounting tape.
> 
> 
> Viola corner geometry is fairly exact now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well as much as it could be on a crt.



Nice work!


Maybe someday I'll get up the nerve to take a look inside my set. Right now I like things as they are and have no need.


----------



## hudsonkm

Thanks,


And it was stressful just to do so. I think I mayhave just been overly worried though as I took as many precautions as I could.


Even locked my poor cats in the bathroom until I was done


----------



## Ev01vEd

I have a KV-30HS420 and by mistake set my "Full" and "Wide Zoom" modes to look the same. What settings are "Wide Zoom" specific so I can attempt to restore it for viewing 4:3 material less stretched?


Thanks.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

Can anybody explain the different effects between UBOF and SBOF, I know UBOF interacts with the brightness control but it seems SBOF does as well. I was just wanting to find out what the SBOF is supposed to be controling.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hudsonkm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> And it was stressful just to do so. I think I mayhave just been overly worried though as I took as many precautions as I could.
> 
> 
> Even locked my poor cats in the bathroom until I was done



I don't think you can be too cautious working around the yoke of a crt. You did right.


That's funny about the cats!


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ev01vEd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a KV-30HS420 and by mistake set my "Full" and "Wide Zoom" modes to look the same. What settings are "Wide Zoom" specific so I can attempt to restore it for viewing 4:3 material less stretched?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Hi, these are my default settings for "Widezoom" mode:


HSIZ: 47, VSIZ: 38.


There you go!


I ran into the same problem by the way when i started twidling with overscan, i did'nt realize that whatever i change the size of VSIZ to it affects the FULL Mode and WIDEZOOM MODE as well.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anybody explain the different effects between UBOF and SBOF, I know UBOF interacts with the brightness control but it seems SBOF does as well. I was just wanting to find out what the SBOF is supposed to be controling.



See first page of attached document *here* .


----------



## Joybutton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hudsonkm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well I bit the bullet, gathered my courage and read over most of the kv-30hs420 service manual for safety precautions.
> 
> 
> After which I removed the back and took a look at the magnets. Surprisingly the one sony had in the corner of question was losing its grip from the sticky tape and nearly hanging off.
> 
> 
> I repositioned it and purchased some new mounting tape.
> 
> 
> Viola corner geometry is fairly exact now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well as much as it could be on a crt.



Awsome work, I was wondering if my convergence problem (in the same corner by chance) might not be a similar problem since my hs420 was a display model. I was curious about taking off the back, while the power was off, just to see if all the magnets and thier tape is in good condition. To do something like that, unplugged and all, is there anything special I need to know about other than unscrewing the back? Is there a link to the pertinent pages of the service manual?


Good job again!


----------



## mikeinfargo

Hi guys,


I purchased a KD-34XBR970 a week ago and I think I've become obsessed with correcting the picture geometry. I'm about ready to shell out the $350 to have it ISF calibrated just so I can go back to watching movies and playing Xbox 360 games instead of going into service mode for hours every night.


My question is, what setting would be causing these lines to bend at 45 degrees past the 5% overscan line on the bottom of the screen? I've fooled around with most of the geometry settings in 2701D and 2702D. I suppose I can use VPOS or VSIZE to move the bend lines off the screen so they are not visible. I hope this isn't a symptom of a problem?


Thanks,


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joybutton* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Awsome work, I was wondering if my convergence problem (in the same corner by chance) might not be a similar problem since my hs420 was a display model. I was curious about taking off the back, while the power was off, just to see if all the magnets and thier tape is in good condition. To do something like that, unplugged and all, is there anything special I need to know about other than unscrewing the back? Is there a link to the pertinent pages of the service manual?
> 
> 
> Good job again!



You just need to be extremely cautious of the components that can take you out. If you are new to this you might Google for some info on the risks of working on crts.


Please be careful.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

IMHO I would be extremely cautious working inside a tv set, it's just too dangerous of a risk just for some minor geometry touchup.


IMO i would just leave it alone, it's not worth your life just for some minor geometry issues.


Trust me, i've heard some pretty horrible horror stories of people getting killed working with high voltage parts in a CRT.


Some things are better left alone, Geometry will never be perfect on a CRT, it's just the nature of the beast.


----------



## JudsonWest




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikeinfargo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> 
> I purchased a KD-34XBR970 a week ago and I think I've become obsessed with correcting the picture geometry. I'm about ready to shell out the $350 to have it ISF calibrated just so I can go back to watching movies and playing Xbox 360 games instead of going into service mode for hours every night.
> 
> 
> My question is, what setting would be causing these lines to bend at 45 degrees past the 5% overscan line on the bottom of the screen? I've fooled around with most of the geometry settings in 2701D and 2702D. I suppose I can use VPOS or VSIZE to move the bend lines off the screen so they are not visible. I hope this isn't a symptom of a problem?
> 
> 
> Thanks,



I have the same issue with my new 970. I have not gotten to put a test pattern up on it yet, but I noticed something while watching NUMB3RS. Mine isn't as dramatic as your's is. Mine is about a 45 degree deflection of about 2mm.


----------



## HDTVblues3

Hello, everyone and good night.


I own the KV30HS420


I'm curious about a couple things that I need some help with.


1. I used DVE to center up my screen as best I could, needed to actually reposition it in 480p. I thought it looked tons better, but now it seems that my Xbox 360 image is pushed off to the right. I don't have anything a the moment to capture the image, but let's say I'm running GRAW, well, the visor is fully visible on the left, but it's not on the right.


If I try to adjust this with HSIZ and HPOS, it moves to the right but it looks like it's squished on the right side. What I mean is it looks like the blue outline of the CrossCOM visor is pressed up against the right side of the screen.


I really wish I was able to show you the screen, to better help me explain. I usec the DVE overscan to fix the screen in SD and then teak it in 480p


2. I read on another site a few months back about a seperate Service Menu default listing for different serial numbered VEGA's. Does anyone know anything about this, or know what I'm even talking about?


Sorry if this has been asked but it's late and i'm exhausted. Any help would be greatle appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HDTVblues3* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I own the KV30HS420. I used DVE to center up my screen as best I could, needed to actually reposition it in 480p. I thought it looked tons better, but now it seems that my Xbox 360 image is pushed off to the right. If I try to adjust this with HSIZ and HPOS, it moves to the right but it looks like it's squished on the right side.



I may be replying in the false belief that the 30HS420 has the same (or very similar) service menu as my 34XBR960. If that's not the case please disregard the following comments.


With the XBR960 there are TWO sets of adjustments for basic horizontal and vertical geometry tweaking: one for the "background raster", and a second for the "foreground image overlay". Each of these two sets of adjustments has, itself, two sets of tweaks... one set for the horizontal dimension and one set for the vertical dimension.


All told, "background" adjustments are for horizontal and vertical size and position (that's four service menu items), and similarly "foreground" adjustments are also for horizontal and vertical size and position (that's four more separate service menu items). Eight service menu items in total, four for horizontal and four for vertical.


You've only mentioned your 30HS420 adjustments to HSIZ and HPOS, but nothing else (at least for horizontal). That would suggest you've adjusted the "background raster" in the horizontal dimension but not the "foreground image overlay" in the horizontal dimension... assuming that there is the second set of service menu items on your set which I'm alluding to. If that's the case, perhaps working on the two "foreground" tweaks as well as the two "background" tweaks you've already addressed might accomplish what you're looking for.


You may have done much research already, but if you read this post and all of the further posts that are referenced by it, you will find instructions on adjusting BOTH SETS OF TWEAKS, to properly reposition and resize both the vertical and horizontal dimensions for both background and foreground. Again, my posts deal with the XBR960 so my apologies if that discussion does not apply to the HS420.


If the service menus are similar then if you follow the recipe described by my series of posts you will get into the 2170D-1 service menu group to adjust VPOS and VSIZ (vertical position and vertical size of the background raster), the 2170D-2 group to adjust HPOS and HSIZ (horizontal position and horizontal size of the "background raster"), and the MID3 group to adjust VDHP, VDHS, VDVE, and VDVS (horizontal position, horizontal size, vertical position, and vertical size, respectively) of the "foreground image". MID3 is used to manipulate the "foreground image" on top of the "background raster" for the 720p/1080i inputs... at least on the XBR960.


If MID3 isn't present, or doesn't work, you might look at MID1. This group (which I believe has DDHP, DDHS, DDVE and DDVS instead) was present on some lower-end or older 34XBR, XS and HS models so MID1 might be what they used on the 30HS420.


Hope this is helpful, and not totally irrelevant for the 30HS420.


----------



## appadv

The 30HS420, although similar to the XBR, has a slightly different SM.


I noticed that some settings in the 30HS420, namely convergence and audio, work differently.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *appadv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The 30HS420, although similar to the XBR, has a slightly different SM.
> 
> 
> I noticed that some settings in the 30HS420, namely convergence and audio, work differently.



If you learn of any additional differences between the Service Menus of the HS420 versus the XBR960, would you be willing to post the areas in which there are differences? Not necessarily the minute details, just the areas in general?


----------



## appadv

I haven't spent a lot of time in the service menus of the two sets, since I don't own a HS420. I can only compare when I am in a store that has the two sets on display *and* I know the owner of the store.


The convergence settings are not available on the HS420, and also some audio settings (sub-bass, low-bass, etc. for the subwoofer have no effect on the HS420, since it does not have a subwoofer built into the set.)


----------



## mikeinfargo

Hi Guys,


My question got lost in the HS420 debate so I'll try again. (Have two weeks left on my return policy so have to figure this out pretty quick.) What setting would be causing the picture to bend at 45 degrees past the 5% overscan area on the bottom of the screen? Or is this a magnet/hardware issue that is off topic?


See attached photo on original post above.


Thanks


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikeinfargo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Guys,
> 
> 
> My question got lost in the HS420 debate so I'll try again. (Have two weeks left on my return policy so have to figure this out pretty quick.) What setting would be causing the picture to bend at 45 degrees past the 5% overscan area on the bottom of the screen? Or is this a magnet/hardware issue that is off topic?
> 
> 
> See attached photo on original post above.
> 
> 
> Thanks



Can I assume you've used a test pattern to adjust for overscan?


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikeinfargo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Guys,
> 
> 
> My question got lost in the HS420 debate so I'll try again. (Have two weeks left on my return policy so have to figure this out pretty quick.) What setting would be causing the picture to bend at 45 degrees past the 5% overscan area on the bottom of the screen? Or is this a magnet/hardware issue that is off topic?
> 
> 
> See attached photo on original post above.
> 
> 
> Thanks



Was the TV like this when you got it? If so, consider the return/replacement.


Your problem looks like a geometry issue. Vertical size/position/linearity. There will not be just one SM adjustment to correct the problem.


If you adjusted for overscan and created the problem, then there are hours of work to correct the geometry. ISF Calibration will not cover the geometry corrections for the basic fee.


----------



## mikeinfargo

I didn't notice the problem right away so I can't say if I was the cause or not. The settings I changed were VPOS. VSIZ, VCEN, VPIN, HPOS, HSIZ, HCNT, MPIN, PIN. I was too nervous to mess around with anything else. If I even thought I acidently hit a wrong key on the remote, I powered off and started over again. I only changed the values plus or minus a few numbers from there defaults and I made sure I wrote everything down. The top and sides are fine, only the bottom 1/4 inch is bent/distorted.


----------



## GlenC

Did you follow rule #1 "write down all factory/initial settings before making any changes"?


Simple fix is to adjust VPOS and/or increase VSIZ till it is gone


----------



## mikeinfargo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Did you follow rule #1 "write down all factory/initial settings before making any changes"?
> 
> 
> Simple fix is to adjust VPOS and/or increase VSIZ till it is gone



Well, I broke rule number one. I only wrote down the settings I changed.










Factory VSIZ was 36 and I adjusted it to 30 so the first set of lines on the test pattern were visible. I only saw the glitch when I was adjusting VPOS and I went up to far. So it's not visible with my current settings. Out of sight, out of mind. I was just worried it was the signs of a failure that was going to increase with time.


I think I'm going to quit fooling around with SM and just try to enjoy my TV. Changing settings to fix geometry gets to be too addicting. Better stop now!


Thanks guys


----------



## kilaen

I was carefully correcting some basic geometry problems on my 3 week old KD-34XBR970 and had something interesting happen. Everything was going fine and then I started getting a loud, constant sound along with a test pattern displayed on the screen.


I tried turning off the TV and unplugging the set for a few minutes but the test pattern and sound return after turning the power on. I can still get to the Service Menu though.


I just got off the phone with Sony support; a service person will be out Wednesday. Anyone ever experience this phenomenon?


----------



## hudsonkm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joybutton* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Awsome work, I was wondering if my convergence problem (in the same corner by chance) might not be a similar problem since my hs420 was a display model. I was curious about taking off the back, while the power was off, just to see if all the magnets and thier tape is in good condition. To do something like that, unplugged and all, is there anything special I need to know about other than unscrewing the back? Is there a link to the pertinent pages of the service manual?
> 
> 
> Good job again!



Make sure you follow the safety precautions in the service manual. Touching the wrong things once you have the chassis open can do more than hurt "hurt" you.










Even turned off and unplugged the set _can_ still maintain enough of a charge to cause you to have a "very" bad day.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

kilaen,


First, enter the Service Mode and immediately press the MUTE. O.K., now navigate (backwards) to the QM menu (light blue letters) and scroll up on sub menu to PTRN. This value should be set to 0 in order to remove the pattern on the screen. There is ALWAYS an extremely loud tone that is generated when you bring up an internal test pattern. Be sure to MUTE (or VOL to zero) before entering this menu.

Hope this helps.


Regards,

Bryan


----------



## kilaen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> kilaen,
> 
> 
> First, enter the Service Mode and immediately press the MUTE. O.K., now navigate (backwards) to the QM menu (light blue letters) and scroll up on sub menu to PTRN. This value should be set to 0 in order to remove the pattern on the screen. There is ALWAYS an extremely loud tone that is generated when you bring up an internal test pattern. Be sure to MUTE (or VOL to zero) before entering this menu.
> 
> Hope this helps.




That worked great thank you! I have no idea how it came on in the first place, I haven't touched anything from the "blue text" area.


Perhaps I'll keep the service appointment next week and have them professionally adjust the geometry etc.


----------



## Ev01vEd

I have a KV30HS420 with the slanted lines at the bottom of the screen like in post #1512. Is there a way to fix?


----------



## Twiin

I've read through this thread and it's been very helpful for me in my own calibration, but I can't help but think that a general walkthrough post would be a godsend for a lot of people. I would imagine that this is fairly intimidating if you're not a very technical sort.


----------



## POWERFUL

Hi, I've done some things with the Sony SM for my XBR960, but I can find the info in the SM to straighten the black bars the way they need to be. On both side when a 4:3 picture comes up the bars are wavy and then when 16:9 stuff comes up with a bar across top or bottom of the picture the bar is not straight at the ends either. Can anybody help me with this situation?


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Back to the talking of my TV
> 
> Ive messed with SBRT so much and its still at 31
> 
> and im still having the problem
> 
> thing is, i was having the same problem on my pc recently and instead of turning up the brightness i turned up the gamma and it fixed it completley, maybe ive just been messing with the wrong setting



so im going to put sbrt at 29 and figure out which one is the gamma one, if anyone knows.. let me know cause i dont have time to go back reading right now..


ALSO, something exploded inside my TV, everything still works fine... dont know what the heck it was..


----------



## darcon_adonis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikeinfargo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> 
> I purchased a KD-34XBR970 a week ago and I think I've become obsessed with correcting the picture geometry. I'm about ready to shell out the $350 to have it ISF calibrated just so I can go back to watching movies and playing Xbox 360 games instead of going into service mode for hours every night.
> 
> 
> My question is, what setting would be causing these lines to bend at 45 degrees past the 5% overscan line on the bottom of the screen? I've fooled around with most of the geometry settings in 2701D and 2702D. I suppose I can use VPOS or VSIZE to move the bend lines off the screen so they are not visible. I hope this isn't a symptom of a problem?
> 
> 
> Thanks,



I just wanted to provide some feedback for this issue. My 30XS955 has the exact same problem, but it only shows up in 480p.

I don't know if its fixable or not...it might just have to be like that. (which sucks, I know)


----------



## mikeinfargo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *darcon_adonis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just wanted to provide some feedback for this issue. My 30XS955 has the exact same problem, but it only shows up in 480p.
> 
> I don't know if its fixable or not...it might just have to be like that. (which sucks, I know)



I might have missed a post, but it looks like 4 people with 3 different Sony TV models have this glitch. I'm surprised all the ISF and tech guys on here haven't seen this before. It would be nice to know if it's a SM setting or a magnet/electronics issue.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikeinfargo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I might have missed a post, but it looks like 4 people with 3 different Sony TV models have this glitch. I'm surprised all the ISF and tech guys on here haven't seen this before. It would be nice to know if it's a SM setting or a magnet/electronics issue.



You have really got a bad attitude...!


Why don't you just read the post - search if you like - get smart. Then it will be OK to ask stupid questions - I don't think you will, unless you really are stupid.


----------



## mikeinfargo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You have really got a bad attitude...!
> 
> 
> Why don't you just read the post - search if you like - get smart. Then it will be OK to ask stupid questions - I don't think you will, unless you really are stupid.



Do you get irritated easily? They have meds for that you know. If my initial question was so stupid and easy to answer, how about enlightening all of us that have this glitch.


Let me rephrase my last post so I don't offend the easily irritated. Since a few people have this problem on multiple Sony TV models, I concluded with my "stupidity" that this wasn't isolated to my TV, or the KD-34XBR970 in general. Since a few members with tech backgrounds responded to my initial post and didn't know what could cause this glitch, then it's surprising to me that this would be a new Sony glitch. I already did what I needed to do to fix this, I moved the bad geometry off the screen so it's not visible. Problem solved for me. I was responding to the post below. Wasn't meant to freak anyone out


"I just wanted to provide some feedback for this issue. My 30XS955 has the exact same problem, but it only shows up in 480p.

I don't know if its fixable or not...it might just have to be like that. (which sucks, I know)"


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You have really got a bad attitude...!
> 
> 
> Why don't you just read the post - search if you like - get smart. Then it will be OK to ask stupid questions - I don't think you will, unless you really are stupid.



WOW!


I surely didn't see any attitude in this. I must have really missed something.


----------



## Nitewatchman

I'd bet ptchristensen mistakenly quoted the wrong post, I certianly didn't see anything wrong with mikeinfargo's post, either ...... I'd even respond to it if I thought I had anything that would be helpful or informative to add, but I do not ...


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikeinfargo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you get irritated easily? They have meds for that you know. If my initial question was so stupid and easy to answer, how about enlightening all of us that have this glitch.
> 
> 
> Let me rephrase my last post so I don't offend the easily irritated. Since a few people have this problem on multiple Sony TV models, I concluded with my "stupidity" that this wasn't isolated to my TV, or the KD-34XBR970 in general. Since a few members with tech backgrounds responded to my initial post and didn't know what could cause this glitch, then it's surprising to me that this would be a new Sony glitch. I already did what I needed to do to fix this, I moved the bad geometry off the screen so it's not visible. Problem solved for me. I was responding to the post below. Wasn't meant to freak anyone out
> 
> 
> "I just wanted to provide some feedback for this issue. My 30XS955 has the exact same problem, but it only shows up in 480p.
> 
> I don't know if its fixable or not...it might just have to be like that. (which sucks, I know)"



So you don't even have a problem anymore - you are just speaking on behalf of the others with the same problem, without sharing with them how you solved it.


How noble of you...!


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So you don't even have a problem anymore - you are just speaking on behalf of the others with the same problem, without sharing with them how you solved it.
> 
> 
> How noble of you...!





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mikeinfargo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I already did what I needed to do to fix this, I moved the bad geometry off the screen so it's not visible. Problem solved for me.



Sounds like Mike shared with us how he "solved" his problem, if ptchristensen would like more details concerning mike's above info, he should read the exchange between Mikeinfargo and GlenC on the last page ....


----------



## mikeinfargo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So you don't even have a problem anymore - you are just speaking on behalf of the others with the same problem, without sharing with them how you solved it.
> 
> 
> How noble of you...!




Look PTCHRISTENSEN! I've been on this board for like a week, asked a question about one freakin issue with my new TV. I had three choices, exchange it, have Sony service it, or live with it. I followed the advice from another member that gave me a simple answer and didn't come off like a jack-arse like you. I still have the problem, I just don't' see it. If I violated the forum rules, I would hope a moderator would have said something or moved my post. The way I see it, you don't make the rules around here or have a say in what is an acceptable question or not. The funny thing is, you seem to be the one with the attitude, you obviously haven't read the last dozen posts, and you come off like you know everything but you haven't given any help on the subject. So I'm officially nominating you for the Biggest ****** in the Universe!










Sorry for wasting forum space with this. I'll bow out now. Thanks to the other members for backing me


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikeinfargo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Look PTCHRISTENSEN! I've been on this board for like a week, asked a question about one freakin issue with my new TV. I had three choices, exchange it, have Sony service it, or live with it. I followed the advice from another member that gave me a simple answer and didn't come off like a jack-arse like you. I still have the problem, I just don't' see it. If I violated the forum rules, I would hope a moderator would have said something or moved my post. The way I see it, you don't make the rules around here or have a say in what is an acceptable question or not. The funny thing is, you seem to be the one with the attitude, you obviously haven't read the last dozen posts, and you come off like you know everything but you haven't given any help on the subject. So I'm officially nominating you for the Biggest ****** in the Universe!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for wasting forum space with this. I'll bow out now. Thanks to the other members for backing me



There is nothing wrong with your question - it's your attitude. And your last mails clearly shows that I was right in my assumption.


Your original mail start with the usual "I might have missed a post...", which clearly means that you have made no efford to either read-through or search the thread on your issue. If you had you would have found dozens of answers.


Instead you proceed to taunt "all the IFS and tech guys", and express your surprise that no one has the answer. Ignoring that we have put the answer out there several times.


I will gladly repeat answers I have given, if I feel that the user has put some work into understanding his issue. Or if he comes right out and says that he doesn't understand the thread, or doesn't have the time to read-through the posts.


But you sir, have a bad attitude...!


----------



## williamtassone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Trust me, i've heard some pretty horrible horror stories of people getting killed working with high voltage parts in a CRT.
> 
> 
> .




If ya gotta go, go with a smile


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is nothing wrong with your question - it's your attitude. And your last mails clearly shows that I was right in my assumption.
> 
> 
> Your original mail start with the usual "I might have missed a post...", which clearly means that you have made no efford to either read-through or search the thread on your issue. If you had you would have found dozens of answers.
> 
> 
> Instead you proceed to taunt "all the IFS and tech guys", and express your surprise that no one has the answer. Ignoring that we have put the answer out there several times.
> 
> 
> I will gladly repeat answers I have given, if I feel that the user has put some work into understanding his issue. Or if he comes right out and says that he doesn't understand the thread, or doesn't have the time to read-through the posts.
> 
> 
> But you sir, have a bad attitude...!



I really don't think it's fair to assume that the text "I might have missed a post..." automatically means a poster has committed the sin of blowing off the thread lazily. I agree that most who post like this have indeed spent no time researching their problem properly. I happen to have seen other posts by this poster and I believe the assertion of a "bad attitude" is just off the mark. It's easy to see how the subsequent posts, by all involved, went over the top.


This whole thing comes as a shock to me as I have respect for both players in this unfortunate correspondence. Maybe we can all move on and put this behind us?


Cheers!


----------



## ColdFlo

Hello,

I reset my TV like Bwill did in 1080i mode ie video 7, and just like him everything went nuts. I did the reset to user defaults. Ive been lurking in this thread for the last year and I was posting to Ken before this thread started on Agoraquest, and I'd appreciate some help. The TV makes a horrible popping noise on video 7 and scares the hell out of me. It's accompanied by flash spots on the sceen along with the last partial screen that has become distorted over the power on and offs and a strange offest red field. The frames also seem to be very slow and some kind of rough static is displayed in the background at about a frame a second.


I remember Ken had a problem like this he didnt post about till long after it happened and I havent been able to find it. I think it involved leaving the TV off for over a week but I could be wrong my middle term memory isnt what it used to be.


Maybe there should be a disclaimer at the beginning of this thread not to do this since really I don't believe we did anything wrong, and these posts are so far along in the thread that others will not see them(just trying to help others). I mean its only logical that it should work, but now I see that they use these guns on multiple screens or at least the firmware. The factory defaults are not the defaults stored in the rom. Thing about my situation is is I think the flashing and popping is damaging my screen. I mean it has to be those kinds of noises only come from large voltage jumps....... It's Loud.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

call a sony tech or tv tech, it's for your own safety, don't take chances..life is too short.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I reset my TV like Bwill did in 1080i mode ie video 7, and just like him everything went nuts. I did the reset to user defaults. Ive been lurking in this thread for the last year and I was posting to Ken before this thread started on Agoraquest, and I'd appreciate some help.



Okay, but you make it tough! There are lots of folks who are eager to help, but NONE of us can read minds! So when you or anyone else asks a question, give required specifics and use *enough* words to describe the problem so we don't have to ask questions or research previous posts just to figiure out what you're talking about.


"I reset my TV ..." What TV? What model? How did you reset it? Are you talking about service mode or not?


> Quote:
> Maybe there should be a disclaimer at the beginning of this thread not to do this



Look at my article #02, post #3, for that exact caution, and it has been repeated over and over again. This is, of course, about the *service-mode* reset.


> Quote:
> I mean its only logical that it should work, but now I see that they use these guns on multiple screens or at least the firmware.



What are you talking about?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> call a sony tech or tv tech, it's for your own safety, don't take chances..life is too short.



Dude, just because you are frightened of electricity doesn't mean every one alse should be! The 34kV wiring is very well protected, and you can even touch the wires without consequence -- but I still wouldn't! The red wire that goes from the high-voltage transformer at the right-rear of the chassis up to a rubber-covered "button" on the side of the CRT is the only thing you really should stay away from: Try not to bump the wire with your hands or a tool, and don't touch the CRT within 3" of the rubber-covered "button" -- unless the set has been off for a half-hour or so.


The electricity is not going to leap out at you and spark you to death! Obviously I'm promoting wisdom and understanding, here, over paranoia. (The greater danger is that, if you do get shocked, your arm or hand + tool is liable to twitch uncontrollably, and you will break something -- like the neck of the CRT!)


If you pull the back off the set to fool with the magnets, just stay away from the red HV wire and don't drop any metal tools onto any circuit boards. Pull the plastic rear cover *straight* off without banging it against anything inside.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

The point is leave that stuff to the professionals, why you encourage people to open their sets and work on their tv is beyond me not only is it extremely dangerous but you could also wreck the tv if you don't know what your doing.


So NO, i'm against your encouragement of opening tv's for the safety of others.


I've heard some very atrocious horror stories of people getting killed doing such a thing.


I've been electricuted a few times, and it does'nt feel good beleive me!


----------



## KenTech

To *mikeinfargo* and others with the "45º bend-at-the-bottom" problem: The primary reason for overscan is to hide defects at the outer limits of the raster, unlike with computer monitors, which display everything you send to them. My 36XS955 doesn't have your problem, but other garbage and nonlinearities are present in that area, and at the left and right, too. So the overscan hides it, no problem. If you are pushing for distortion-free zero-percent overscan, IMHO you are asking for aomething the set was not designed to deliver.


That said, I wonder what causes that particular distortion. It is as if the timing of some internal sync pulse is a bit off. If it were my set, I can think of a few parameters I might tweak a bit to see what happens, being careful to backtrack if matters get worse or the picture disappears or goes bonkers.


You might possible experiment with 2170P-2: CLPP~SNYP (#7-11).


Also in MID1: #1-DVPH, #9-MDVP.

In MID2: #2-DRVP.

In MID3: #2-VDVE, and any of #4-11: VDVO~VFRV.


A quick look at the deflection parameters in 2170D doesn't give me any clues.


Keep your eye on that "bending" region on-screen, and click a parameter's value up or down _just one notch_ to see if anything improves. If nothing changes, click back _immediately_ to the old settings. Same if the picture screws up terribly. If you want to revert to your last-saved settings, press 8 (screen > "READ") then Enter.


The usual cautions apply. Write down a log of what you are doing, especially the old settings. Don't click any three-button combinations or you might Reset the TV accidentally, not good! Go slowly. If you have pressed a button that puts "INI" or "RESET" onto the screen, STOP and wait for it to clear. If you discover something useful, post about it here.


Don't try to access any channels with the number buttons -- they don't work that way in service mode. You have to use the two up/down channel buttons.


Read Post #3 in this thread for navigation particulars.


And, please, please, don't start or persist in any personal insult-wars here, or NO ONE will help you.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've heard some very atrocious horror stories of people getting killed doing such a thing.



Yes, and driving to the store, and crossing raging rivers on logs, and bicycling anywhere near cars and trucks. So? We''re adults, here. Pick your level of risk, and go with it! I am not recommending that people take the back off their sets -- just note certain cautions if you choose to do it, that's all. Knowledge and care trump fear every time! If YOU are not comfortable with the process, then by all means don't do it.


----------



## justsc

What I try to tell others is to avoid a casual approach to the inner workings of a set with the back off. If one gives the set its due respect, and follows the key safety rules then there's a good chance of a very good outcome.


I worked for a computer company for 8 years in Silicon Valley where we actually assembled our own crt monitors. It was along this (manufacturing) line that most accidents occured. People had been given more than adequate safety training but the day-in, day-out montony of doing the same thing every day tended to cause folks to be way too casual around these tubes. The injuries ranged from small shocks to emergencies involving an ambulance trip to the hospital. It always boiled down to stupid mistakes. People trying to work too fast and not paying sufficient attention to what they were doing.


I would not advise anyone to work around the tube unless they had an electronics background, or relatively similar experience, and took the proper precautions. Electricity is not something to be afraid of, but it demands the utmost respect.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> I am not recommending that people take the back off their sets -- just note certain cautions if you choose to do it, that's all.



Good i'm glad we can agree on something! and leave it to the professionals which none of us are.


----------



## ColdFlo

Actually Ken doesnt an increased vertical front porch fix his problem? With a corresponding decrease in the back porch maintaining frequencies?(also christensen you were right that mikeinfargo is a lazy kid but at the same time that isssue was never addressed in the thread so for others why not just help him) Ken I would assume that we are talking about reseting the service mode and you guys are big on others searching old posts why not you? You guys completely ignored Bwill when this happened to him. Also I been lurking in here for a year let's assume I'm on the level and not have contempt for everyone, ok.


CAUTION: AVOID keys 7 and 9, as they are part of a key-sequence that can reset all of the deflection or image-decoding settings back to a "factory-newborn" state. If you think you've hit any key by accident, STOP. In a few seconds it will revert back to SERVICE mode, as you'll see at the right side of the screen. All dangerous key-sequences are combinations of *three* keys, by the way.


That is not enough in my opinion it does not accurately describe the pitfall it more indicates to me on a fresh reading that you will lose your work. Its also probably not a factory newborn state its probably a factory newborn state for the boards(circuit boards whatever you wanna call them Im more familiar with PC boards) not for the TV. Which leads to your other question.



Quote:

I mean its only logical that it should work, but now I see that they use these guns on multiple screens or at least the firmware.

What are you talking about?


What I'm talking about is I think they use these guns and or boards and or firmwares in multiple screens and the firmware must be set to recognize your screen therefore when you reset it you cant just go in and tweak mid values until you have some other values and its not version values and id values theres something more to it because I entered them and I still have the same problem(yes I wrote them all down along the excel spreadsheet with the service code definitions on them) the 480I is fine as it probably displays fine on all sets(even after a reset) but anytime I switch to an HD input I get problems just like so many on agoraquest have described.(run-on sorry reads how you can imagine me saying it)


I have an old KV32HS500 not like that information is going to help anything


Mat who said anything about the back of the TV being off.


----------



## fred33

I had my set at a SONY authorized service center for geometry problems. They replaced an entire board. I got my TV back yesterday and things are worse. I guess the dealer did not do any geometry adjustments.

My question is when SONY authorized dealers do geometry adjustments, do they have specs and instructions from SONY as to how to procede, step by step

??


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Mat who said anything about the back of the TV being off.



You spelt my name wrong










You have to read way in the beginning of the thread, to adjust some of the focus, and convergance adjustments with the permaloy magnets you need to take the cover off.


----------



## ColdFlo

Fred all they have is the service guide and some expensive tools(or they are supposed to), Honestly, I trust my own eye and time and the fact i have drive cause its my screen to do it myself. Aside from my most recent problem I can do the rest. My screen was in good condition with Ken's help of course along with others. Just get the service manual read the thread and its not so bad its just getting in the head of the guys that wrote this manual. I think Ken said on another thread it runs linux and some of the combinations are complex but the rest are very beneficial and easy to do.


Matt, I read that the day that happened. Remember the guy with the japanese tv tech? I pmed him and got that techs number. I know what the best magnets are. You just dont know who your messing with do you.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> From Post #3: "CAUTION: AVOID keys 7 and 9, as they are part of a key-sequence that can reset all of the deflection or image-decoding settings back to a "factory-newborn" state. If you think you've hit any key by accident, STOP. In a few seconds it will revert back to SERVICE mode, as you'll see at the right side of the screen. All dangerous key-sequences are combinations of *three* keys, by the way."
> 
> 
> That is not enough in my opinion it does not accurately describe the pitfall it more indicates to me on a fresh reading that you will lose your work. Its also probably not a factory newborn state its probably a factory newborn state for the boards(circuit boards whatever you wanna call them Im more familiar with PC boards) not for the TV.



I stated that caution as clearly as I could without using language that talks down to anyone, and I stand by it. Further, that warning has been repeated by myself and others over and over again throughout this thread. The consequences of resetting the TV are so cataclysmic for any one set that I can't imagine the insane amount of work required to just get it back to the way it was before the "accident."


Now, along comes someone who ignores the cautions, presses buttons without thinking or whatever, and resets the TV, then comes onto this forum and says, "My Bad, please help!"


There is no way on earth I can conceive of restoring someone's set via this forum; that's why the cautions have been repeated and stated in plain language. Having done my bit, offered lots of help, and advised due caution, I personally will not get involved in coaching someone in this global restoration of their set, sorry. What form do you think this "help" would take? A couple weeks of forum-message or email back-and-forth without my ever seeing the set? Various data charts have been posted, and one can try the default settings first, then make additional changes that have been suggested in this forum. Or call a service tech and pay for them to fix it. Or not. Getting further involved post-accident is not how I want to spend my time contributing (further) to this forum. I will leave it to others.


----------



## ColdFlo

There you go with that contemp again we are not little kids. It didnt say anything close to cataclysmic and its not that bad you just dont know the ans. Ken you do not know everything and I'm not an idiot, ok. There are techs that arent paid that well that know all this too. This is not rocketscience or nuclear power.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Fred all they have is the service guide and some expensive tools(or they are supposed to), Honestly, I trust my own eye and time and the fact i have drive cause its my screen to do it myself. Aside from my most recent problem I can do the rest. My screen was in good condition with Ken's help of course along with others. Just get the service manual read the thread and its not so bad its just getting in the head of the guys that wrote this manual. I think Ken said on another thread it runs linux and some of the combinations are complex but the rest are very beneficial and easy to do.
> 
> 
> Matt, I read that the day that happened. Remember the guy with the japanese tv tech? I pmed him and got that techs number. I know what the best magnets are. You just dont know who your messing with do you.




FYI there is no such thing as best magnets, tech's just use permaloy magnets to alighn the convergance.



> Quote:
> You just dont know who your messing with do you










Can you enlighten me a bit? not sure what that is about.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> so im going to put sbrt at 29 and figure out which one is the gamma one, if anyone knows.. let me know cause i dont have time to go back reading right now..
> 
> 
> ALSO, something exploded inside my TV, everything still works fine... dont know what the heck it was..



wierd green blob appeared but dissappeared later... and if someone could answer my question


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> wierd green blob appeared but dissappeared later... and if someone could answer my question



The green glob is either a magnetic interferance issue or a color purity problem. Do you have any unshielded speakers next to the tv?



As for your darkness issue i don't know what to tell you, i pretty much told you everything i know, either something in your video chain is clipping blacks or you may have a faulty 360 or cable.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> wierd green blob appeared but dissappeared later... and if someone could answer my question



On bright area? Intense electron flow in very bright area of picture heats up the aperture grille, warping it, causing pink or green splotches. When the brightness subsides, the color blob disappears. I can make it happen easily on my 36" XS955, so I reduce the brightness for certain test patterns. Normal video rarely causes the problem. Worst for me is very bright video from top to bottom at far left or right. On a total-white screen, a slightly greenish area forms to the left of center and disappears when the brightness is reduced.


I can't imagine how an aperture-grille tube this big can be even this glitch-free! Three cheers for precision manufacturing!


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> irhxcbcziuzxs, SurfingMatt27 -- Please, you need to download and examine this *chart* so you can see all of the service-mode parameters that affect black level and brightness. You guys keep talking like SBRT is "the One" and that some value of SBRT is "Right." It's not and there isn't! Several settings *interact* to determine black level, and until you understand this, you will stay confused. SBRT=31 just happens to be in the middle of its range and has no special importance.
> 
> 
> irhxcbcziuzxs - If you want to keep hammering on this one special problem you have, you might consider starting another thread that focuses on it. If your set is under warranty, ferchrissake get a tech to come out and look at it!



ive pretty much determined that SBRT isnt the problem, which setting it may be, im not sure... maybe some gamma setting as i had the same problem on my PC and gamma fixed it up in a jiffy, but as ive been away for awhile i forgot what settings do what, and generally i have a lack of time...


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a 30HS420, and it's really hard to get a good viewing level for the 360 games without setting GAMM to a high level. If you set SBRT or UBOF too high it will wash out the blacks, and I don't really feel like raising the Contrast/Picture setting in the user menu.



exactly, my sbrt is washing out the blacks but im not getting the shadow detail and still having black crush only the black crush is washed out,


but this is what everything is at right now...


sbrt - 31

ubof - 3

ucof - 5

gamm - 2


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There you go with that contemp again we are not little kids. It didnt say anything close to cataclysmic and its not that bad you just dont know the ans. Ken you do not know everything and I'm not an idiot, ok. There are techs that arent paid that well that know all this too. This is not rocketscience or nuclear power.



So, it's not rocket science, and you're not a little kid. And even low paid techs know this stuff. So how come you can't figure it out?


Being a year-long lurker amounts to absolutely nothing.


Here's what it says on the first post of this thread:


"...the undisciplined or impulsive (you know who you are!) may wish to avoid any of this."


If you don't know what you're doing, stay out of the Service Menu. You pay your quarter and you take your chances. No one held a gun to your head. You went barging into your SM and screwed-up your tv. And now you want to take others to task and complain you weren't adequately warned?


Take responsibility for your own errors. If something here isn't good enough for you, then take some time to improve on it. Try making a contribution. Anybody can complain.


----------



## ColdFlo

Look, I fixed it. I know what you know, and now I know more. You have no room to talk down to me.









Also, I think I should thank the Sony Service Manual, and the guy with the pdf from the xbr and all the definitions. You guys would deserve some credit, but you have cashed it all out in arrogance and contempt so you dont deserve a thing. See, when mike said you dont own this forum, he should have proved it by proving that you cant do anything to stop him making you look like you truly are. A script kiddie that went leet over one thread in one of the largest forums on the net. I mean really control yourself, and stop making yourself out to be a joke.


----------



## williamtassone

come on boys, get pissed crank out the Frank Sinatra & get some Karaoke going


Will


----------



## johnfull

Newbie here.

Can anyone direct me to a thread concerning just the color and

brightness settings on the new 34" Wega XBR Super Fine Pitch?

I'm pretty sure it's the KD-34XBR970, though it does say Super

Fine Pitch. HAs that controversy been resolved? Anyway, I know

the basics of Drive and Bias controls as well as some of Gamma

and Red Push. I found the consumer 'Monitor' button and turned

off the Red push and have to run the tint way over on 7 Red to

get faces to begin to look non-yellow. I set up a friend's 35" JVC

square flat tube TV last year with Menu access found on the internet. I finally got the black and white linear throughout all

the gray tones and got reasonably good fleshtones from the

horrible Comcast analog cable. DVDs look superb.

So, for this other friend, does anyone have a final set of tweaks

for getting the B&W linear while also achieving decent flesh tones? I've heard mention of Green push. Ugh. I haven't watched

the TV enough to see the gamut of Blue/Greens, which many new

CRT sets are pushing to mimic the color of plasmas.

Thanks to anyone who can direct me to just the color/gamma

settings. It's too dark and the black and white is purply and the

flesh tones are jaundiced at best, bileous at worst...thanks!


----------



## johnfull

I found the discussions. Thanxabunch!


----------



## bigbluecheese

For some reason it is not saving my setting. After I change the settings, I press mute and power off, then power back on. I see that my settings have all been reverted.


What's the problem?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbluecheese* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For some reason it is not saving my setting. After I change the settings, I press mute and power off, then power back on. I see that my settings have all been reverted.
> 
> 
> What's the problem?



mute + enter, before power off/on


----------



## bigbluecheese

lol Thanks. I was going to kill myself (extreme exaggeration).


Looks like ISF calibration can wait a little while.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> exactly, my sbrt is washing out the blacks but im not getting the shadow detail and still having black crush only the black crush is washed out,
> 
> 
> but this is what everything is at right now...
> 
> 
> sbrt - 31
> 
> ubof - 3
> 
> ucof - 5
> 
> gamm - 2



Try raising the _CUT settings...I have found they are the best way to increase shadow detail without washing the image out. Of course, when you raise the _CUT settings, you have to decrease the corresponding _DRV settings to compensate. Every two increases in the _CUT settings requires about 1 decrease in the _DRV settings.


----------



## johnfull

I'm very intrigued by the gamut question as it relates to HDTV.

The original NTSC standard used a green phosphor with much less

yellow and only plasma screens come close to this standard today.

They actually overshoot the standard, which renders many greens

and blue greens in deeper hues than are achievable on CRT sets.

My thinking on the out-of-the-box settings on the Sony is that

they were emulating the plasma gamut by tinkering with the

other values to bring up the deep greens and turquoises.

Does anyone else see this? It's not that the CRT phosphors are

deficient for the most part. They produce a much better yellow

and render flesh tones more readily than plasmas. But the

plasmas have a 'new look' which emphasizes turquoise and

emerald greens. It would be great if Sony would publish a set of

values that would restore true color fidelity to these sets!

Out of the box, I use 'Monitor' to kill the red push and then move

the tint control to 7 on the red side to kill the green face tones.

White type embedded in a blue background looks pink, which

makes me wonder about the color temp -- even when it's set to

'cool' which is supposed to be the bluest. I have yet to go into

the service menu, since I'm still reading the posts for courage.

I was naive enough to think that all HDTVS would meet a certain

and exacting standard the way computers do. HA!


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Try raising the _CUT settings...I have found they are the best way to increase shadow detail without washing the image out. Of course, when you raise the _CUT settings, you have to raise the corresponding _DRV settings to compensate. Every two increases in the _CUT settings seems to equal about 1 decrease in the _DRV settings.



anyone else got anything to say on this?


----------



## fred33

I have the service manual.

I guess I was looking to see if anyone had an inside track as to SONY's suggested step by step instructions on how to bring back the factory geometry and guidelines to look for in doing so.


As of this posting I am waiting for an "authorized" SONY dealer to come here again and try to make my geometry close to factory original. Frankly, I don't think he knows any more than what I have read and tried in here.


Lastly, I hope you guys don't take this forum as a competition to see who knows the most. That will surely ruin this nice forum.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Hello all,

I have asked this a few times before, but let me elaborate. I am trying to determine if I am having an issue with the color decoder chip in my set. I see a lot of color banding in most all of the sources I input (DVD via XBOX 360 and a cheap Sony player both using component output, XBOX 360 games, and standard cable.) Since I don't own a reference grade DVD player, how can I determine if there is an issue with my set. As I understand it, most of the color banding issues come from the DVD player and not the source material and the pros in the mastering studio use CRTs because they are generally capable of displaying more colors than other display types.

To explain further as to why I think it may be my set, when I enter the Service Menu QM pattern menu # 10 I am seeing 1/8" discreet steps instead of (what I believe should be) a smooth gradient.

I am also seeing a fair amount of random noise when I scrutinize the screen. Maybe this could be related to a voltage or dirty power issue. (Just an extremely uneducated guess.)

Again, I have inquired about this in the past and the sound of crickets was maddening!









Please, any input would be greatly appreciated!


Bryan


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As I understand it, most of the color banding issues come from the DVD player and not the source material and the pros in the mastering studio use CRTs because they are generally capable of displaying more colors than other display types.



Yes, but only with an analog signal path all the way to the CRT.


> Quote:
> To explain further as to why I think it may be my set, when I enter the Service Menu QM pattern menu # 10 I am seeing 1/8" discreet steps instead of (what I believe should be) a smooth gradient.



What you are seeing seems normal and the best digital TV will do. Each primary color is digitized into 256 steps, and your computer in "high color" does the same. 1/8" bands X 256 = 32" -- about right for your screen. The 1/8" banding you are seeing for primary colors is in the source, inherent in digital video.


When the banding gets _coarser_, you have something else going on. If I fiddle with the "Brightness" and "Contrast" controls in my Panasonic S97 DVD player, I immediately see coarser banding, as color levels have to be dropped or doubled to change the response curve (a crude resampling). So I never mess with those, but use the TV's adjustments instead, which are not acccomplished digitally.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Thanks for the response, KenTech! Very enlightening! I must ask then, do you experience banding to one degree or another with all your sources? What must it be like for people with 60" screens?









Will HD-DVD remedy this issue? I assume not since even an internal gradient seems to be displayed in 24 bits/256x3 steps. I am not a huge videophile, but I can't believe that this is the first time I have heard that our displays are only in 24bit depth.

Yes, at times the banding can vary up to 1" wide if the color difference in a wide swath of sky varies just a bit. The variation in color seems to be more than a few steps of separation in brightness.

As you can see, I'm having a hard time swallowing that this is something everyone experiences.









So there it is, I'm stuck. Well, It's good to know that I DO just have to live with it.

Thanks again,


Bryan


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will HD-DVD remedy this issue? I assume not since even an internal gradient seems to be displayed in 24 bits/256x3 steps. I am not a huge videophile, but I can't believe that this is the first time I have heard that our displays are only in 24bit depth.
> 
> Yes, at times the banding can vary up to 1" wide if the color difference in a wide swath of sky varies just a bit. The variation in color seems to be more than a few steps of separation in brightness.
> 
> As you can see, I'm having a hard time swallowing that this is something everyone experiences.



I have just attempted to read several documents and Web pages on HDTV definitions, and I am having a hard time identifying any information about bit depth. 8 bits per color is one of the digital-video standards, but broadcast HDTV may be 10 bits (1024 levels) per color. High-end rendering software boasts 12-bit internal processing, but I believe it has to be sampled down to meet the HDTV standard, which may be 10-bit per color, indeed. That doesn't say that your *source* isn't 8-bit. That 1/8" banding is visible on the #10 test pattern could be evidence that the *test pattern* is being *generated* at 8 bits. (I have exactly the same TV chassis as you do.)


On DVDs with subtle gradients of brightness/color, banding is always visible, unless it's very grainy, which acts like a dither. Example: In _Monsters Inc._, when Sully puts the kid to bed, flickering candlelight on the wall makes banding pretty obvious, and I think it's in the DVD, as my players all render it exactly the same. (I think DVD is 8-bit.) Same with ocean backgrounds in _Finding Nemo_ -- a torture test for banding.


So my word on this certainly is not definitive, and I'm having a hard time clarifying it for myself. Maybe someone else has the answer to this one: What IS the bit depth for the HDTV standard?


In regular watching of HDTV broadcasts, my attention is not called to any banding. Real-world images tend to mask it.


One reason I mentioned 8 bits is because the digitized SD video from a digital video camera (DV-25) or analog/digital converter (say a Canopus ADC-100) has 8-bit luminance values. White is 255, black is 0. But HDTV may be much better.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnfull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm very intrigued by the gamut question as it relates to HDTV.
> 
> The original NTSC standard used a green phosphor with much less
> 
> yellow and only plasma screens come close to this standard today.
> 
> They actually overshoot the standard, which renders many greens
> 
> and blue greens in deeper hues than are achievable on CRT sets.



There are some good sites online that explain how the gamut of the different technologies relate to the defined digital-TV standards. Here is a good example. There are others.

http://www.displaymate.com/shootout.html


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

KenTech,


Thanks again for your answers and enlightening investigation into this subject.

I have been known to be excruciatingly critical of how things perform. Seems I expect too much from my current equipment. Not that I am disappointed, this is by far the BEST picture I've seen from a set. It just opens the door for the enrapturing tendrils of "the perfect picture" to take hold of my easily distracted thoughts!


Regards,


Bryan


p.s. I'm glad this thread has had some time to cool-down. I was a little afraid to come back after the tone that was set a week ago. Cheers everyone!


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe someone else has the answer to this one: What IS the bit depth for the HDTV standard?



Know what you mean, Ken - some of this stuff can be difficult to dig up and "Decipher" properly ....


If I am reading some of the below correctly, I think it is 8bit(chrominance or luminance) by the time it gets to us via ATSC/MPEG2 encoding at the "source"(a broadcaster, for instance).


So, I believe this offers a fair summary, which AFAIK is correct :


This ( http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html ) says :


"For ATSC MPEG-2 the colors are represented as Y, Pr, and Pb, which are defined as:


Y = Red+Green+Blue (Y is also called intensity or luminance and is sometimes depicted as white.)


Pr = Red-Y


Pb = Blue-Y (Pr and Pb are the color information, or chrominance.)


There is only one Pr and Pb pixel for every four Y pixels. Thus 720p has 1280*720=921,600 Y pixels plus 230,400 Pr pixels plus 230,400 Pb pixels.........


Although the color information is at a lower resolution, human eyes can rarely sense this at the correct sitting distance ........


The Y information is encoded as an 8-bit number. Pr and Pb likewise are 8-bit numbers. The monitor will eventually convert YPrPb into RGB. The number of bits per visible pixel averages out to 12, not 24...... "


:end quote


-------------------------------------------------------------------------



> Quote:
> There are some good sites online that explain how the gamut of the different technologies relate to the defined digital-TV standards.



Also, for those interested, Detailed info on ATSC standard(used for DTV/HD in U.S.) in the form of downloadable(free) PDF white papers can be found here :

http://www.atsc.org/standards.html 


The document labeled "A/54A "ATSC Recommended Practice: Guide to the Use of the ATSC Digital Television Standard" is probably the one I use or refer to most often - Here's a direct link to it :

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_54a.pdf 


Back to "HDTV color" ... On Page 22, Section 5.2.2 of the A54 document it says :


:quote


"5.2.2 Precision of Samples

Samples are typically obtained using analog-to-digital converter circuits with 10-bit precision. After studio processing, the various luminance and chrominance samples will typically be represented using 8 or 10 bits per sample for luminance and 8 bits per sample for each chrominance component. The limit of precision of the MPEG-2 Main Profile is 8 bits per sample for each of the luminance and chrominance components."


:end quote


Note on above : I wouldn't think A/D conversion would be needed for a signal that is already "digital" such as a Network HD feed.


Section 5.2.1.3 (also on page 22) also has some info that may be of some interest here concerning color and ATSC :

:quote


5.2.1.3 Colorimetry

For the purposes of the Digital Television Standard, colorimetry means the combination ofcolor primaries, transfer characteristics, and matrix coefficients. Video inputs conforming to SMPTE 274M and SMPTE 296M have the same colorimetry; in this document, this will be referred to as SMPTE 274M colorimetry. Note that SMPTE 274M colorimetry is the same as ITU-R BT. 709 Part 2 colorimetry. Video inputs corresponding to ITU-R BT. 601-5 should have SMPTE 170M colorimetry. ISO/IEC 13818-2 allows the encoder to signal the input colorimetry parameter values to the decoder. If sequence_display_extension() is not present in the bit stream, or if color_description is zero, the color primaries, transfer characteristics, and matrix coefficients are assumed to be implicitly defined by the application. Therefore, the colorimetry should always be explicitly signaled using sequence_display_extension(). If this information is not transmitted, receiver behavior cannot be predicted.


In generating bit streams, broadcasters should understand that some receivers will display 480-line formats according to SMPTE 170M colorimetry (value 0x06) and 720- and 1080-line formats according to SMPTE 274M colorimetry (value 0x01). It is believed that few receivers will display properly the other colorimetry combinations allowed by ISO/IEC 13818-2. Legacy material using SMPTE 240M colorimetry should be treated as if it used ITU-R BT. 709 Part 2 colorimetry.


:end quote


Hope some of the above is of some interest ...


----------



## Roy Batty

As the owner of a XBR970 I've just purchased a couple of day ago, I have submerged myself into this thread, as fascinating as it is long, so I am still in the process of reading it throughout.


But in the meantime, maybe someone could help me with a couple of doubts:


- first, is there any way to go to a "printer friendly" version of the whole thread? It would be much easier if I could carry with me a hard copy of this on paper that I can read when I ride the bus and at times like that.


- and secondly, I have searched throughout the entire thread (both manually and using the "search" feature) and, as far as I have been able to determine, the only pdfs for service menus are those attached to the very first post. Does that mean that I can use those to enter the service menu of the XBR970?


Thanks in advance, and I will surely be back after getting up to date with the thread.


----------



## justsc

There have been a number of attachments added throughout this thread. You may just have to read everything to locate them. As far as I know, the access code to enter the SM works for the 970 just fine.


Please - only go into the SM if you intend to be diligent about recording the default values BEFORE adjusting anything. If you do not intend to do this then it would be better if you stay out of the SM.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> (3) I revisited all of my LANDING settings from #0 thru 6. #6, TESW, turns off the corner compensation of #0-3, LT-RB, so you can choose settings for EWSP and ENSW that give a most-even color for the screen. Put up a white or gray full screen (my black crosshatch-on-gray will do), not too bright, stand back a ways, set TESW to 1, and set EWSP and ENSW for best evenness. Then turn TESW back to 0 and tweak LT-RB for best corners -- minimum color, minimum darkening. (Don't stare; move your eyes around.) I improved mine. Something a tech said to me reminded me that there *are* set-orientation adjustments, and EW and NS look like east-west and north-south to me. I ended up with different settings than I had before and a more-even screen.



Ken,


I made some of these adjustments, and was able to improve evenness a little; however, the top to bottom left and right sides are a slightly redder white than the top to bottom center of the screen. Is there anyway to further improve upon this??


Thanks.


----------



## Roy Batty




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There have been a number of attachments added throughout this thread. You may just have to read everything to locate them. As far as I know, the access code to enter the SM works for the 970 just fine.
> 
> 
> Please - only go into the SM if you intend to be diligent about recording the default values BEFORE adjusting anything. If you do not intend to do this then it would be better if you stay out of the SM.



Thank you for your prompt reply.


I scanned throughout the entire thread page by page, making a search on each of them for XBR970, but I guess I missed them. I will try harder.


But, from your words, I understand that somebody posted an access code specific for the XBR970, is that right? Or should I use those on the first page?


As for going into the SM, thanks for your sensible warning, but don't worry. This is not the first TV set I tinker with, and I always write down every value before touching anything, so I can go back to factory settings if needed, of course.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roy Batty* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thank you for your prompt reply.
> 
> 
> I scanned throughout the entire thread page by page, making a search on each of them for XBR970, but I guess I missed them. I will try harder.
> 
> 
> But, from your words, I understand that somebody posted an access code specific for the XBR970, is that right? Or should I use those on the first page?
> 
> 
> As for going into the SM, thanks for your sensible warning, but don't worry. This is not the first TV set I tinker with, and I always write down every value before touching anything, so I can go back to factory settings if needed, of course.



Oops!


You will see no posts with attachments with references to the 970. I sure wish I'd seen that sooner and maybe could have saved you some time.










You can most probably assume that everything in here that refers to the HS420 series, and probably even the XS/XBR series sets applies to the 970. The HS420 models are closest to your 970.


By all meams, use the access code from the first page to get into the SM. Glad to hear you've done this before.










Cheers!


----------



## justsc

KenTech and Others...


I would really appreciate it if you would review the thread referrenced below and clarify things for those of us participating in the thread. Essentially, the discussion is centered around what the Sony crt HD sets are doing with SD signals. Is everything really scaled to 1080i, or do these sets actually deliver 480p and 960i via DRC and other built-in technlologies?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=682879 


Please weigh-in over in the referenced thread, and here is also if you like.


Thanks a bunch guys!


----------



## fred33

2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are universal raster or "picture frame" settings? (except where noted in the manual) 2170D-2 -- #3 -SLIN adjust stretch of picture horizontally ?

MID1 #0 thru 5 is universal, and # 8 through 12 is picture size on the raster and can be adjusted to viewer preference?

MID3 is mainly 1080i and 720p adjustments?

MID2 is mainly 480i adjustments?



Has anyone posted information on MID3 #'s 4 through 11?


Has anyone posted information on 2170D-3 #'s 1 and 2 ?

When I follow the manual to center the raster I get a mirror effect on the right side of the raster. Is this normal?



Thanks in advance.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=682879
> 
> Please weigh-in over in the referenced thread, and here is also if you like.



I just posted my observations *here*. 


I guess I would prefer if that discussion didn't "leak" back into this service-mode thread.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just posted my observations *here*.
> 
> 
> I guess I would prefer if that discussion didn't "leak" back into this service-mode thread.



I heartily agree.


This thread is one of facts, figures, thoughtful analysis and reasoned inquiries.


Let's keep it that way.










And thanks for lending your insights to the other thread.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are universal raster or "picture frame" settings? (except where noted in the manual) 2170D-2 -- #3 -SLIN adjust stretch of picture horizontally ? . . . MID1 #0 thru 5 is universal, and # 8 through 12 is picture size on the raster and can be adjusted to viewer preference?



One day I tried to figure all this out, and I took notes.


It looks like 2170D-2 #0-5 are universal, indeed. #6 is a luminance-color delay setting, and #7 is a "Y-S" delay setting, whatever that is. #8-11 seem very similar to four items in 0-5, above, but the scope of the settings can be adjusted per several frame types (VGA, "Others," etc.).


SLIN isn't a general stretch adjustment but varies the s-curve compensation for the dimension it affects (I forget; vertical?)


> Quote:
> MID3 is mainly 1080i and 720p adjustments?
> 
> MID2 is mainly 480i adjustments?



That seems to jive with my notes.


> Quote:
> Has anyone posted information on MID3 #'s 4 through 11?



Yes. They seem to be esoteric pulse and timing parameters, with abbreviations for phase-locked-loop, width (pulse), start, stop, field reverse, etc. I doubt that tinkering with these are to any benefit, as they are likely adjusted with instruments connected.


> Quote:
> Has anyone posted information on 2170D-3 #'s 1 and 2 ?



2170D-3 #0-6 control the blanking "shutters" that prevent the electron guns from spraying the sides of the CRT where reflected energy could cause glow and contrast reduction. You have to turn these off to confidently center a raster and picture or even adjust overscan.


#0-HBLK and #3-VBLK are the "master switches" for this function, horizintal and vertical, respectively. The other four parameters are the widths of the blanking shutters (blanked areas). Higher is wider.


A normal procedure for adjustment would be: Turn off the blanking entirely with the switches. Do your centering and overscan adjustments. Then turn the blanking back on, and adjust the four shutters until they just creep into the visible raster; then back off the settings a bit until they disappear off the edge of the screen. Now the electron beams are cut off beyond the edge of the phosphor area.


> Quote:
> When I follow the manual to center the raster I get a mirror effect on the right side of the raster. Is this normal?



Are you being careful to distimguish between positioning the raster and positioning the picture on the raster? In an orthodox adjustment process from the service manual, 2170D-2 #0-HCNT centers the raster (scanned area) on the CRT. Then #1-HPOS centers the picture (video frame) on the raster. You can push the video frame so far to the right or left that it appears to "wrap" back on itself. Is this what you mean?


Note that some of the size adjustments in MID1 leave one edge stationary while extending the other edge, unlike the actions in 2170D-1 and -2. This can be confusing if you don't see it at first.


I hope this is some help. I concentrated on this one afternoon in the winter and got it right for my set, then have left it alone for months. So these are not fresh memories, and my notes are somewhat cryptic.


----------



## alphacorvus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rasdock* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On my TV--a 30xs955--I notice two vertical bars a few inches in from both the left and right sides of the screen. They are only really visible against a very bright image, and they appear as slightly brighter bars extending the entire height of the screen. What happens is, when text is scrolling across the screen or the camera pans, the picture seems to curve when it hits those two spots. It's like the entire image dips down and comes back up once it's past those bars. Does that make sense? What could cause something like this, and can it be fixed?



My 30XS955 does the exact same thing. It's bad enough where I want to smash the CRT in with a hammer and call it a day.


In all seriousness, when I first got my set it had a major color purity problem on the left side of the screen. There was a HUGE yellow spot that you could see on anything that wasn't dark. I called a Sony-authorized tech out to come fix it, and he did, but shortly thereafter I noticed the TV having this effect extremely pronounced in approximately the same area that had the yellow problem. I think the tech just attached some magnets to the back of the set to fix the color problem but in the process totally f'd up the geometry.


If you look at a crosshatch pattern you can see that the boxes in the pattern become smaller (horizontally compressed) where the picture appears to "dip." Logically I thought that adjusting SLIN would help alleviate the problem, and it does (but does not eliminate it), but at the expense of round objects looking like footballs on the sides of the screen. This of course is unacceptable and I'm at my wits end since my 90-day in-home warranty has expired on the set, and am strongly debating just shelling out the cash to get a competent tech to look at it.


I had the back of my set off to see if I could tell if the tech had attached a glob of magnets to the affected area but I got gunshy after staring at the set's innards for a few minutes.


Since the tube is still under warranty, would it be worth the effort to try and sort this out with Sony? Is there some service mode setting I may be unaware of that would help?


I apologize for the long read.


----------



## justsc

alphacorvus,


Welcome to AVS!


I'm curious, did you buy your set new, or was it possibly open box or a refurb? Just curious.


While I can't help you with possible SM adjustments, there are many others here that will contribute to those possibilities.


----------



## alphacorvus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Welcome to AVS!



I've been a lurker for several months now, but thanks for the welcome. In that time I think I've read nearly every post in this thread.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm curious, did you buy your set new, or was it possibly open box or a refurb? Just curious.



Brand new, in box in October 2005. I probably should have exchanged it right away after I noticed it, but when you nearly kill yourself placing a TV that weighs more than you onto a TV stand you get reluctant to move it again







. And from what I remember originally, the color problem was the only issue...which isn't something I thought was going to be a big deal.


More and more I think it's something that a tech is going to have to adjust physically, rather than anything that can be achieved in the SM.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by Rasdock
> 
> On my TV--a 30xs955--I notice two vertical bars a few inches in from both the left and right sides of the screen. They are only really visible against a very bright image, and they appear as slightly brighter bars extending the entire height of the screen. What happens is, when text is scrolling across the screen or the camera pans, the picture seems to curve when it hits those two spots. It's like the entire image dips down and comes back up once it's past those bars. Does that make sense? What could cause something like this, and can it be fixed?



Every single Sony HS, XS or XBR960 I have seen has these; it must be a by-product of Sony's design. When I first go my set, I thought it could be a defect, but when I went back to the stores to look at floor models, they could be always be found. I think that a lot people simply never notice them, and/or perhaps they are less pronounced on some sets. Mine are fairly minimal, and don't bother me much. When the set is well calibrated, it serves to minimize them.


----------



## RWetmore

BTW,


I recently made what I feel is big discovery for setting white/greyscale. When adjusting the _DRV and _CUT settings, start with jacking up RDRV and RCUT to a maximum of 63, then only adjust GDRV, BDRV, GCUT and BCUT settings - leaving RDRV and RCUT at 63 each. This will result in a need to lower overall contrast a bit. Furthermore, the closer the corresponding GDRV/GCUT and BDRV/BCUT are to each other, the better the picture looks. In other words, play around with the settings until your GDRV and GCUT settings are the same value; do same with BDRV and BCUT. I'm not sure why this is the case, but the whole picture just comes together perfectly when the corresponding value for each color are the same or very near the same.


Following these two guidelines has given me by far the best picture I have seen with my set (30XS955)


I'm using:


RDRV = 63

GDRV = 31

BDRV = 27

RCUT = 63

GCUT = 30

BCUT = 27


I had to play around with it for a long time to get an accurate greyscale. I had settled with GCUT at 31 for a while, but had an ever so slight, tiny green push, which I corrected by lowering it one value.


I highly recommend everyone try this; the results are stunning. Shadow detail is awesome now with zero wash out and deeper blacks. Amazing.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW,
> 
> 
> I recently made what I feel is big discovery for setting white/greyscale. When adjusting the _DRV and _CUT settings, start with jacking up RDRV and RCUT to a maximum of 63, then only adjust GDRV, BDRV, GCUT and BCUT settings - leaving RDRV and RCUT at 63 each. This will result in a need to lower overall contrast a bit. Furthermore, the closer the corresponding GDRV/GCUT and BDRV/BCUT are to each other, the better the picture looks. In other words, play around with the settings until your GDRV and GCUT settings are the same value; do same with BDRV and BCUT. I'm not sure why this is the case, but the whole picture just comes together perfectly when the corresponding value for each color are the same or very near the same.
> 
> 
> Following these two guidelines has given me by the best picture I have seen with my set (30XS955)
> 
> 
> I'm using:
> 
> 
> RDRV = 63
> 
> GDRV = 31
> 
> BDRV = 27
> 
> RCUT = 63
> 
> GCUT = 30
> 
> BCUT = 27
> 
> 
> I had to play around with it for a long time to get these settings. I had GCUT at 31 for while, but had an ever so slight, tiny green push, which I corrected by lowering it one value. I highly recommend everyone try this; the results are stunning. Shadow detail is awesome now with zero wash out and deeper blacks. Amazing.



I'm curious, what are your values for the following settings in 2170P-4:

RYR

RYB

GYR

GYB


Thanks!


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm curious, what are your values for the following settings in 2170P-4:
> 
> RYR
> 
> RYB
> 
> GYR
> 
> GYB
> 
> 
> Thanks!



I'm using:


RYR = 14

RYB = 14

GYR = 6

GYB = 4


----------



## RWetmore

I also have my all my gamma values at zero.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Following these two guidelines has given me by far the best picture I have seen with my set (30XS955)
> 
> 
> I'm using:
> 
> 
> RDRV = 63
> 
> GDRV = 31
> 
> BDRV = 27
> 
> RCUT = 63
> 
> GCUT = 30
> 
> BCUT = 27
> 
> 
> I highly recommend everyone try this; the results are stunning. Shadow detail is awesome now with zero wash out and deeper blacks. Amazing.



Are you saying that you have obtained *different* results than if the settings were similarly in balance for good color and grayscale but were lower. For example, _DRV = 43-27-21 and _CUT = 43-21-24.


I have always assumed that these settings program a linear amplifying system in the video chain, and whether they average high or low doesn't matter because SBRT balances them against the Brightness slider setting. I opted to be in the middle of the range 0-63, and SBRT=29 balances those _DRV and _CUT settings above perfectly for me.


I have assumed that my setting _DRV and _CUT higher and SBRT lower would be exactly equivalent, unless we are runing into a nonlinearity in the video amplifiers that are controlled by these settings. This would be the equivalent of a crude and accidental gamma adjustment! But you've got me curious . . .


BTW, what SBRT are you using to balance this all out. Do you have the Brightness slider centered at 31?


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you saying that you have obtained *different* results than if the settings were similarly in balance for good color and grayscale but were lower. For example, _DRV = 43-27-21 and _CUT = 43-21-24.



Yes, this is precisely what I am saying I have discovered.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have always assumed that these settings program a linear amplifying system in the video chain, and whether they average high or low doesn't matter because SBRT balances them against the Brightness slider setting. I opted to be in the middle of the range 0-63, and SBRT=29 balances those _DRV and _CUT settings above perfectly for me.



Interesting - I have found the SBRT and _CUT settings to not be perfectly linear. For example, when using test patterns for black level, raising _CUT has a significantly reduced effect on washout compared to SBRT. In other words, for the amount of shadow detail increase attained from raising _CUT did not require a significant reduction in SBRT to compensate according to the black level test patterns I'm using with AVIA. It was this discovery that led me to try find an accurate grey scale using higher _CUT settings, which lead to higher _DRV settings as well.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have assumed that my setting _DRV and _CUT higher and SBRT lower would be exactly equivalent, unless we are runing into a nonlinearity in the video amplifiers that are controlled by these settings. This would be the equivalent of a crude and accidental gamma adjustment! But you've got me curious . . .



Well, I hope you'll give it a try; the results suprised me as well. I have also found that the _DRV and "Picture" adjustment from the main menu are also not perfectly linear. I tried using higher _CUT settings than _DRV settings thinking I could just raise "Picture" to compensate, but it didn't look very good (or anywhere near as good as it looks now). For some reason, the picture just "comes together" best when the corresponding _CUT and _DRV values are the same or very close to the same, and set their highest. Of course, setting greyscale with these restrictions is much more difficult, and takes a lot of patience. Maybe I was just lucky enough to find the combination that met these parameters, but I now believe I have a near perfect greyscale. As previously stated, shadow detail is better than I have ever gotten it, and yet the blacks seem a little bit blacker. You have to see it to believe it - even some of the darkest scenes have depth and shadow detail without any washout.



> Quote:
> BTW, what SBRT are you using to balance this all out. Do you have the Brightness slider centered at 31?



I concluded some time ago that the SBRT was the same exact adjustment as the Brightness slider from the main menu, so it seemed that it didn't matter if I centered it at 31 or not. I played with it and found no difference - if I brought SBRT up to 31, I simply had to bring down Brightness to 32. The relationship between the 2 seems 100% linear. My SBRT setting is 23 (23 was the factory setting), and I have Brightness at 40.


----------



## todd95008




I have always assumed that these settings program a linear amplifying system in the video chain said:


> Kentech, if you look at those service data listings for the older KD-34XBR2 it shows a non-linear relationship between cut @ 0, cut @ 31 & cut @ 63 !!!
> 
> Example:setting cut (r, g or b) to 0=-9dB gain. Setting cut to 31 (mid range) =0dB gain and setting cut to max (63) = +4dB gain.
> 
> Looks like the drive settings are almost linear....
> 
> 
> Todd


----------



## JRocket

Hi Folks:


I have an older KV36XBR800 (4:3) and have been trying to resolve the corner discoloration issues that alot of people have experienced - my problem is that the service menu for the 36XBR800 is less extensive, and there is no LANDING group to tweak.


I've tried searching the forums as well as this thread with no luck so far.


Does anybody know if I can make changes similar to codes 0-3 in the LANDING group of the 960 on my 800? Or am I just out of luck?


Thanks very much.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Looks like the drive settings are almost linear....



I found that the Drive settings are still significantly non linear, though not as much as the _CUT settings.


----------



## todd95008

Quote:

Originally Posted by *RWetmore*
I found that the Drive settings are still significantly non linear, though not as much as the _CUT settings.
Take a look at the attached page.

I can't say that all sony DA4/x chassis behave this way.

It may be the red gun running out of steam that causes some of the non linear behavior. I think I noticed red starting to compress as I raised the Rdrv setting up past 55 (mine is at 52). The chart I mention is just how the electronic processing part of the chain may behave not how the actual CRT behaves.

What sort of measurement tools & test discs are you using to confirm your findings.

 

Pages from KD34XBR2.pdf 38.30078125k . file


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Kentech, if you look at those service data listings for the older KD-34XBR2 it shows a non-linear relationship between cut @ 0, cut @ 31 & cut @ 63 !!!
> 
> Example:setting cut (r, g or b) to 0=-9dB gain. Setting cut to 31 (mid range) =0dB gain and setting cut to max (63) = +4dB gain.
> 
> Looks like the drive settings are almost linear....



That's not the nonlinearity I was referring to. I was proposing a possible nonlinearity in the instantaneous video voltage response, i.e. how much the screen brightness changes for a 0.2V change in video for (a) dark areas, (b) lighter areas. If this amplifying system does not have a strictly straight-line response and has instead sort of an S-curve, and lowering _DRV and _CUT pushed the video signal lower on that curve, shadow contrast will be lowered. (Contrast = the slope of the curve.) If we try the opposite, pushing the video higher on the curve by running _DRV and _CUT values up to near max, shadow contrast would be sugnificantly increased, and maybe highlight detail would be attenuated -- a "washed out" look. Note again: This is all hypothetical.


I'm not talking about the relationship between the _DRV and _CUT steps and what effect they have on dB of video gain, but how the amplifying system behaves after a setting has been changed. It's this latter effect that would change the appearance of the video onscreen by modifying (in an uncontrolled manner!) the shape of the video-response curve relative to the actual video signal. I am hoping it is linear, and nonlinearity is cotrolled by gamma and a couple other settings. But I can't prove anything. I am very likely to make some tests myself, as I am very curious whether the observations by RWetmore can be confirmed on my set.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It may be the red gun running out of steam that causes some of the non linear behavior. I think I noticed red starting to compress as I raised the Rdrv setting up past 55 (mine is at 52).



Your wondering about this makes me ask: Are we under pressure to get the video signal properly "positioned" between cutoff and saturation, both for the CRT and the amplifiers, to make sure the three colors track so as to produce a perfect grayscale? It's not like one can just easily stick a 'scope probe on some signal line to see if there's rounding or clipping of the video. Some of the settings specification in the service manual explicitly refer to 'scope patters and voltages. Maybe this is important, we'll see.


An additional thought: If the response curvature added by the gamma circuits is fixed in position relative to cutoff and saturation, sliding the video signal up and down the curve will change the appearance quite a bit, indeed! We don't know in what order these parameters are applied and how independent they are.


It took me forever to get grayscale right. I thought for a while that I had to solve a yellowish-midtones probles by using a different gamma for the blue channel. Wrong! I hadn't adjusted the _CUT parameters correctly, and another effect had masked the real issue. Now my grayscale is dead-on, and the benefits for picture quality can't minimized. But all of my settings are sort of in the middle of the ranges for those adjustments, something I chose to do because it seemed reasonable and instinctively correct (speaking as an electronics engineer). Maybe I'll learn something really interesting by trying RWetmore's _DRV and _CUT settings philosophy (if that's not too strong a word







)


----------



## todd95008




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It took me forever to get grayscale right. I thought for a while that I had to solve a yellowish-midtones probles by using a different gamma for the blue channel. Wrong! I hadn't adjusted the _CUT parameters correctly, and another effect had masked the real issue. Now my grayscale is dead-on, and the benefits for picture quality can't minimized. But all of my settings are sort of in the middle of the ranges for those adjustments, something I chose to do because it seemed reasonable and instinctively correct (speaking as an electronics engineer).



I remember your setting the gamb setting different Vs the red & blue.

I only recently was able to check my grayscale with a spydertv and using a spreadsheet to do the calculations (see calibration thread). I was not too far off from D65 but it could use a little further tweaking.

I have not done any changes to my Sony set in the last 6 months Since I have been preoccupied with calibrating a new Sharp LCD I have in my bedroom.

The Sony looks so much better in terms of color & depth of image (especially in dark areas) that I just wanted it to be my sanctuary when I'm fed up with the sharp !!!

Now that I have the Sharp with half a viewable picture, I plan to do re-visit the grayscale & color decoder on the Sony !!!

It will be interesting if Rwetmore's ideas will further improve the sony and are those results measurable ???


Todd


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Maybe I'll learn something really interesting by trying RWetmore's _DRV and _CUT settings philosophy (if that's not too strong a word )



I hope you do....as I'm quite curious myself to find out why I'm getting these results (or perceived results).


Has anyone else given it a try?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I hope you do....as I'm quite curious myself to find out why I'm getting these results (or perceived results).
> 
> 
> Has anyone else given it a try?



Didn't work for me, on my 344XBR960 - I got a heavy red cast


My settings are:


RDRV = 45

GDRV = 31

BDRV = 22

RCUT = 32

GCUT = 22

BCUT = 27


----------



## BoloTheRomeo

Hey KenTech, I've come across a very interesting discovery. I was having a lot of problems with my games and other sources looking washed out, I figured it had to do with the UBOF so I went ahead and lowered that to 0 with SBRT at 29. I then finally decided to run a Pluge pattern and see if I could solve the problem, the actual problem was that my SBRT was way too high supprisingly enough.It came from the factory at a default of 18, so that's where I started it at during the test pattern and sure enough it was set perfectly. Now all I have to do is adjust the UBOF for individual inputs (cause some are set too high and others are not set at all), my set was manufactured in November of last year so I'm wondering if maybe on the newer versions of these sets some of the default SM settings are pretty close to dead on. Of course some are not, but they're all pretty simple and easy to address. Once again I am using a 30HS420, I just thought that this information might help some who are having a problem with the washed out colors. I'm also interested in how you went about getting your grayscale dead on, I've read this entire post and I've seen that you have taken many different approaches towards this goal I was wondering what the breakthrough approach was. Maybe I missed it somewhere, it gets a little tedious looking through so many posts at times. Also I plugged in some of the settings that you have used on your setup for color and I must say that it brings mine pretty close to perfect. I'll try some more tweaking when I get out of my Visual Basic class today.


----------



## GlenC

It is important to understand that Ken, and others have explained the adjustments and what they do. They have even explained adjustments they have made and the results of those adjustments. No two TVs will end up with all the settings the same.


No two TVs will display exactly the same even with the same equipment connected. The tolerances and design variables in components and continuous revisions in consumer electronics circuit designs make this nearly impossible.


The output signal of a DVD, STB, PC or game box will be slightly different (even with two identical units produced at the same time on the assembly line), the same goes for the TV. There are so many factors that affect settings, especially black level, brightness/sub brightness, that settings one uses will not be right for others. It could be close, or not. I have done a few of the 960s and none of the settings were exactly the same.


While this thread is very informative on the what and how-to, you still need to know what you are doing to get accurate results.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Didn't work for me, on my 344XBR960 - I got a heavy red cast
> 
> 
> My settings are:
> 
> 
> RDRV = 45
> 
> GDRV = 31
> 
> BDRV = 22
> 
> RCUT = 32
> 
> GCUT = 22
> 
> BCUT = 27



I wouldn't expect my settings to match from set to set. I would guess that virtually everyone's values for an accurate grey scale would be different using these guidelines. The point was to try get an get an accurate grey scale starting with RDRV and RCUT at 63 each, then only adjusting green and blue, trying to keep the corresponding _DRV and _CUT values as close as possible.


Has anyone tried to do this, succesfully gotten a good greyscale, and then compared the results with their previous settings?


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wouldn't expect my settings to match from set to set. I would guess that virtually everyone's values for an accurate grey scale would be different using these guidelines. The point was to try get an get an accurate grey scale starting with RDRV and RCUT at 63 each, then only adjusting green and blue, trying to keep the corresponding _DRV and _CUT values as close as possible.
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried to do this, succesfully gotten a good greyscale, and then compared the results with their previous settings?



What color temp are you looking for with this method? Grayscale is the proper balance of Red-Green-Blue (for the desired color temperature) at each luminance level from black to white.


It doesn't work to just pick a setting for one color cut/drive and do a grayscale. There is an interaction between the cuts and drives. Your method may work at 30IRE and 80IRE, but may be off at 20/70. The art here, is to make the adjustments so the grayscale is uniform (minimal error) D65, from 10IRE to 100IRE, not just at one or two points. Cuts affect black levels and also impact drive settings. Every TV will display a different R/G/B luminance level due to phosphor and electronic variations.


Grayscale, to be uniform and accurate, needs to be done with calibrated measuring equipment. In addition to the test equipment reading the color of the grayscale, it also can/will measure the luminance, to calculate the gamma curve.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What color temp are you looking for with this method? Grayscale is the proper balance of Red-Green-Blue (for the desired color temperature) at each luminance level from black to white.



Well, I'm using the test xIRE thru 100IRE from the AVIA disc for greyscale, which is NTSC, so the color temperature would be D65.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It doesn't work to just pick a setting for one color cut/drive and do a grayscale. There is an interaction between the cuts and drives. Your method may work at 30IRE and 80IRE, but may be off at 20/70. The art here, is to make the adjustments so the grayscale is uniform (minimal error) D65, from 10IRE to 100IRE, not just at one or two points. Cuts affect black levels and also impact drive settings. Every TV will display a different R/G/B luminance level due to phosphor and electronic variations.



I checked the greyscale in increments of 10 from black to 100IRE. There is virtually no coloration, except that which occurs from the slight uneveness of color purity that, I believe, virtually all of these sets have to some degree. I am aware that _CUT affects black levels, but it is very slight according the black level test pattern I'm using with AVIA. I have calibrated black level with the settings I came up with both before and after repeatedly to confirm.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Grayscale, to be uniform and accurate, needs to be done with calibrated measuring equipment



Or a picky eye that knows what to look for thanks to Ken's method and insights on the subject. Is mine perfect? I doubt it, but I bet it is within an acceptable range of say plus or minus 200 to 250 from 6500. No way to know for sure without a color measuring device, but I feel it is close enough not to justify the expense.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> It doesn't work to just pick a setting for one color cut/drive and do a grayscale.



Well, it seems that with NTSC, Red always has the highest value, which is why I chose it over the other two colors. I assume an accurate grey scale could not be achieved if I started with setting blues (or green) at 63, and only adjusted the values of green and red, for example.


The only reason I decided to try this was because according to my black level test patterns, the _CUT settings increased shadow detail with dramatically less washout than equivalent shadow detail increase achieved by raising SBRT. I was experimenting - that's all. I do not claim this is the "correct" or ideal method for setting greyscale; it seems clear to me that with these guidelines, setting greyscale would be much more difficult and restrictive.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I checked the greyscale in increments of 10 from black to 100IRE. There is virtually no coloration, except that which occurs from the slight uneveness of color purity....



They all might look gray to you, but you really don't know what temperature it really is and how close each one is to the other......



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Or a picky eye that knows what to look for thanks to Ken's method and insights on the subject. Is mine perfect? I doubt it, but I bet it is within an acceptable range of say plus or minus 200 to 250 from 6500. No way to know for sure without a color measuring device, but I feel it is close enough not to justify the expense.



Doing this visually with out a D65 reference, I would say more like a +/- 1000K and no telling what reference point.


You just need to be comfortable with the colors you are seeing. Can they be adjusted more accurately? probably. Do you need it more accurate? Only you know the answer........


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> They all might look gray to you, but you really don't know what temperature it really is and how close each one is to the other......



I'm not disputing this, but I don't see any coloration and the white looks pure white.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Doing this visually with out a D65 reference, I would say more like a +/- 1000K and no telling what reference point.



Well, I'd be willing bet it is much closer than this. As good as what a color measuring device can achieve, no. Even if a color measuring device confirmed it was accurate, I would still consider it to be somewhat lucky, and not a result of the eye being as good as the colorimeter.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You just need to be comfortable with the colors you are seeing. Can they be adjusted more accurately? probably. Do you need it more accurate? Only you know the answer........



I'm not looking for comfortable looking colors. I'm looking for unnatural coloration and/or slight pushes in the red, green, or blue direction. If one is persistant and anal enough, I believe they can get pretty close to 6500.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> They all might look gray to you, but you really don't know what temperature it really is and how close each one is to the other......



This matters much less than professional calibrators want you to believe. The human eye is *adaptive* and sees *as white* a considerable range of color temperatures. If the viewing environment is suitably dim (not black!), within a broad range the eye sees a satisfying white based on the actual maximum brightness displayed on-screen. If that is 6600K, who cares? Pink and greenish contamination seem to be less well tolerated, so freedom from those color biases is desirable. 6500K seems to be nearly in the middle of the range of acceptable "whites," so it is a reasonable goal if you have an instrument that you can use to calibrate -- that is, you might as well aim for 6500K.


> Quote:
> Doing this visually with out a D65 reference, I would say more like a +/- 1000K and no telling what reference point.



Sure. But there are some natural references, as I have mentioned before. Dense clouds illuminated by the sun at mid-day in an otherwise blue sky (fair-weather cumulus, etc.) are between 6500K and 6600K and have no contamination. I have personally calibrated two different computer monitors to 6500K each using two different calibration devices from two different manufacturers and compared with the "cloud" standard. The correspondence is very close and entirely adequate.


> Quote:
> You just need to be comfortable with the colors you are seeing. Can they be adjusted more accurately? probably. Do you need it more accurate?



Which raises the questions of, What is "accurate"? What do you mean by "need"? I'm aware of the meme that only 6500K is "accurate," but no one has made a case for that that isn't easily refuted. It is certainly refuted by the fact of the eye's adaptivity. Then "need" is defined by the eye. If, in addition to this, one has an emotional "need" to know that their display is exactly 6500K, well . . . that's their problem, isn't it, and they can pay big $$ to accomplish this with professional help. The purpose of this thread is to discuss as many methods as possible that an enterprising individual can use to make their own adjustments at minimal cost and with maximal empowerment (i.e. educatioin).


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Even if a color measuring device confirmed it was accurate, I would still consider it to be somewhat lucky, and not a result of the eye being as good as the colorimeter. I'm not looking for comfortable looking colors. I'm looking for unnatural coloration and/or slight pushes in the red, green, or blue direction. If one is persistant and anal enough, I believe they can get pretty close to 6500.



This is the whole point and spirit of this thread and the knowledge it can provide.


----------



## GlenC

Need is a relative term. It can be a state of mind or a requirement. Just depends upon the situation.

Does everyone need their TV calibrated? NO, some want theirs calibrated.

Do you need a car with 500HP? Depends on what you are going to do with it.

Do you need test equipment? Depends upon what you need to measure or adjust. (do you want your Doctor to calibrate their medical monitors, used for diagnosis, by eye, without the proper calibration equipment?)


A color analyzer is the only way to reasonably measure grayscale from 10 IRE to 100 IRE. Additionally, with the color analyzer it is very easy to see plus green errors throughout the range and adjust accordingly.


Basically this situation is like taking a bearing ball and checking for size and roundness. You are checking with a tape measure, I have a micrometer. To you, the bearing is 3/8 and is round. To me, it is .370 +/- .004.


D65 is used because it is the industry standard most film based material is mastered to. Therefore, calibrating the entire grayscale as close to D65 as possible is intended to yield a picture displayed with the colors the director intended.


Professional calibration is not for everyone. Those who choose to have a professional calibrate their TVs grayscale, should expect accuracy in the calibration, not a looks close enough. DIY is a viable option for many, knowing they are accepting their results and tolerances as good enough/close enough, accurate or not.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> D65 is used because it is the industry standard most film based material is mastered to. Therefore, calibrating the entire grayscale as close to D65 as possible is intended to yield a picture displayed with the colors the director intended.



The common "director's intent" argument has no meaning at this link in the video-reporduction chain. If the eye perceives the intended whites in the video as white, and the releasing company has included white in an accurate DVD transfer, then slight off-coloration for effect (common) will be perceived exactly as intended, as the eye will calibrate to the saturated whites in the video just as it would in the theater. See _The Matrix_ for an excellent example. Color biases in film are generally not applied to all tones evenly, since, in that case, no color bias would be perceived if it is subtle. It is the mid-tones that are biased slightly in color. Since the eye calibrates to the lightest tones (clear film, saturated video-white) if they are present, "cool" or "warm" or undersaturated color deviations are reproduced beautifully. Bottom line: It is the relative coloration of the different tones in a film that establish the "director's intent," as it does in the movie theater.


> Quote:
> Those who choose to have a professional calibrate their TVs grayscale, should expect accuracy in the calibration, not a looks close enough. DIY is a viable option for many, knowing they are accepting their results and tolerances as good enough/close enough, accurate or not.



Again, you (a professional calibrator) are claiming special value for this "accuracy" in color temperature, and I maintain that it is a rationally indefensible position in spite of its use as a selling point. If a critical eye perceives a specific display's white-temperature as impressively natural and correct, it is good enough! It is likely better than any theater presentation, which is commonly greenish, too dim for great color, and with a grayish black level.


On the other hand, grayscale linearity is much more important, IMHO, and instrumentation in the hands of an expert will make this easier, but expensive. The DIY enthusiast will have to obsess somewhat over stepped-grayscale patterns on DVD and watch some B/W video to satisfy themselves that they've got it right. I know -- it certainly took me a while to get there. But they can get it right, as many of us who post here can attest.


People who have no interest in fiddling with the service codes -- and the discipline it requires not to screw things up -- are well-advised to pay a calibrator to do the job, as should those folks who find themselves adrift without success, confused, or frustrated by having tried. That's why any of us pay someone to do any job for us, no?


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A color analyzer is the only way to reasonably measure grayscale from 10 IRE to 100 IRE. Additionally, with the color analyzer it is very easy to see plus green errors throughout the range and adjust accordingly.
> 
> 
> Basically this situation is like taking a bearing ball and checking for size and roundness. You are checking with a tape measure, I have a micrometer. To you, the bearing is 3/8 and is round. To me, it is .370 +/- .004.



Well, if there is no practical performance loss, would +/- .004 matter? Acceptable tolerance ranges are are usually based on a cost/performance analysis. In the case of a TV calibration, such precision isn't going to significantly improve the performance and ultimate enjoyment of the product, in my opinion.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> D65 is used because it is the industry standard most film based material is mastered to. Therefore, calibrating the entire grayscale as close to D65 as possible is intended to yield a picture displayed with the colors the director intended.



We know this - that's why we are using test patterns and scales which are mastered to the D65 standard.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Professional calibration is not for everyone. Those who choose to have a professional calibrate their TVs grayscale, should expect accuracy in the calibration, not a looks close enough.



Of course.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> DIY is a viable option for many, knowing they are accepting their results and tolerances as good enough/close enough, accurate or not.



Or plenty accurate enough for practical application.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, if there is no practical performance loss, would +/- .004 matter? Acceptable tolerance ranges are are usually based on a cost/performance analysis. In the case of a TV calibration, such precision isn't going to significantly improve the performance and ultimate enjoyment of the product, in my opinion.



I guess I should have used different numbers, the point being 3/8" = .375" not .370".


Intended application has a big impact. Aerospace versus house building tolerances are quite different. As for the TV, the eye can distinguish a .004 variation in the CIE coordinates where D65 is .313x/.329y. My life would be much simpler if I calibrated to 6500K (a range) instead of D65 (a point). If I can't get the TV to track evenly at D65 (most of the time), I make every effort to minimize the plus green errors throughout the range.


There is a standard, D65, if anyone pays for a calibration, they deserve the calibration to be as close to D65 as possible, no ifs ands or buts.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The common "director's intent" argument has no meaning at this link in the video-reporduction chain. If the eye perceives the intended whites in the video as white, and the releasing company has included white in an accurate DVD transfer, then slight off-coloration for effect (common) will be perceived exactly as intended, as the eye will calibrate to the saturated whites in the video just as it would in the theater.



It has all its meaning here. The movie is mastered for white to be D65, not 9300K, not 7000K. "Close enough" is a tolerance you are willing to accept and the variation, however big it is, is not important to you, that is fine and acceptable. Many of the TVs on the market are set as high as 9000K (warm), and the general public sees that as white, however it is not the white as white is mastered on film and DVD. Directors have film developed and processed in different manners to provide specific visual effects they want to present. The only way to know you are seeing what the Director intended, is to know your display is as close to D65 as possible.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bottom line: It is the relative coloration of the different tones in a film that establish the "director's intent," as it does in the movie theater.



All the more reason to accurately reproduce white at D65 and have accurate color decoding.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Again, you (a professional calibrator) are claiming special value for this "accuracy" in color temperature, and I maintain that it is a rationally indefensible position in spite of its use as a selling point.



I deliver what the customer is paying for. It is OK for you to believe that the D65 white in a movie looks white to you when displayed at something other than D65, for that matter you, or any of us, might be slightly color blind. Men, more than women, are colorblind to green, to some extent.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If a critical eye perceives a specific display's white-temperature as impressively natural and correct, it is good enough! It is likely better than any theater presentation, which is commonly greenish, too dim for great color, and with a grayish black level.



"Good enough" again is an acceptance level, not the standard. You don't want you surgeon say, "looks like we got it all, good enough". TV calibration is not surgery, however the customers deserve the same level of performance, the best we can do.


There are many reading this forum for information and to learn. Some are veterans and some are new to video. Some are DIYers and some just want to understand the concepts. We should to cater to all. These threads need to be unbiased to retain participation and encourage input. I have never said you can't do a DIY calibration, I have indicated the variances might be greater than you think, and I say this from personal experience with my own Marquee CRT projector. I thought I had it close, but was I wrong. It looked great, but now it really looks much better.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The movie is mastered for white to be D65, not 9300K, not 7000K. . . . Many of the TVs on the market are set as high as 9000K (warm), and the general public sees that as white, however it is not the white as white is mastered on film and DVD.



This is a straw-man argument. Nowhere in this thread is anyone advocating a color temperature (CT) setting that far from the decent mean of 6500K.


> Quote:
> Directors have film developed and processed in different manners to provide specific visual effects they want to present. The only way to know you are seeing what the Director intended, is to know your display is as close to D65 as possible.



Wrong. You are pretending that the human eye has no adaptive power whatsoever. Linear grayscale reproduction is far more important.


> Quote:
> All the more reason to accurately reproduce white at D65 and have accurate color decoding.



You are confusing relative color perceived by the adapted eye and absolute color measured by an instrument.


> Quote:
> I deliver what the customer is paying for.



I should hope so. But first you have to make the case that exactly 6500 is "correct" rather than a good mean target and that a customer should pay for this extraordinary accuracy.


> Quote:
> It is OK for you to believe that the D65 white in a movie looks white to you when displayed at something other than D65, for that matter you, or any of us, might be slightly color blind.



Hilarious, Glen! You are now equating "believing" with "perceiving." And are you proposing that the people who don't agree with you might be color blind? That's it! You've hit on it. Those of us who are color-blind don't _need_ 6500K!


> Quote:
> "Good enough" again is an acceptance level, not the standard. You don't want you surgeon say, "looks like we got it all, good enough".



. . . and so the stakes are as high as surgery? If the set is not 6500K, there's no hope of enjoying it? Another straw man.


> Quote:
> . . . the customers deserve the same level of performance, the best we can do.



For what a calibrator charges, I should hope so. But you treat television as though it is a precision process, and it most certainly is not, as anyone who watches it can tell. I understand the sales pitch, Glen. But this is probably not the right forum thread to voice it.


> Quote:
> There are many reading this forum for information and to learn. Some are veterans and some are new to video. Some are DIYers and some just want to understand the concepts. We should to cater to all. These threads need to be unbiased to retain participation and encourage input.



Actually this thread was specifically started to cater to those folks who have Sony CRT sets of DA-4 chassis design who wish to make their own adjustments via the service menu. My interest is in keeping it agenda-neutral and scientifically correct. You have, for example, ignored the established matter of color adaptation.


> Quote:
> I have never said you can't do a DIY calibration, I have indicated the variances might be greater than you think, and I say this from personal experience with my own Marquee CRT projector. I thought I had it close, but was I wrong. It looked great, but now it really looks much better.



Many of us without instrumentation can make the same claim and keep $$ in our poclets. The scope of this particular discussion is very narrow: the purported "requirement" of a precise 6500K color temperature of white. No other aspect of your calibration routine is being questioned. If you are already doing a complete calibration, why not aim for 6500K, indeed!


----------



## GlenC

Ken, your arrogance, narrow mindedness and lack of willingness to accept the existence of another, measurable means to achieve grayscale calibration is overwhelming. You are definitely possessed by a ravenous ego and the frequent use of wrong in reference to others, implies an insatiable need to be right.


There apparently should be a disclaimer on your thread stating it only should be read by owners of the DA-4 chassis wanting to do a DIY calibration only. Anyone disagreeing with or having an opinion or calibration method different than that of the author will be severely chastised. Heaven forbid that anyone would apply any information here to another TV.


It is also very interesting that you refuse to believe or acknowledge there is actually a standard for the color of white and that it exists as a measurable point. Is it a requirement for pleasurable viewing? NO, just a calibration target or reference.


It's totally insane you think anyone, yourself included, can look at a TV displaying white of any color and the eye will adapt to it being a different color of white. I will agree, the eye and brain will tell you it is white, however it won't change the color temperature you are seeing. You just don't know it isn't D65. If you were to place a TV displaying D65 next to a TV displaying, say, 6800K, for example, the eye will see the two different whites, plain and simple.


You profess you are more accurate with your white balance adjustment by looking at clouds in the sky, and preach that everyone can and should do it for them selves, but you never have measured your results. Some people value their time and would prefer to have it done in a few hours, nothing wrong with that. My guess, if someone measured your settings and found an unacceptable measurement, for a professional calibration, you would tell them there $10K test equipment is wrong.


One of the most accurate 960 grayscales I have achieved, varied between 6440K to 6550K from 30 IRE to 100 IRE, 10 IRE was 5838K and 20 IRE was 6220K these readings were influenced by the light in the room and the color of the walls causing a -blue situation. We can't get them perfect with the test equipment, we can get close, minimize errors and we are able to acquire the calibration data and provide it to customers, documenting what they have paid for.


----------



## fred33

In an orthodox adjustment process from the service manual, 2170D-2 #0-HCNT centers the raster (scanned area) on the CRT. Then #1-HPOS centers the picture (video frame) on the raster. You can push the video frame so far to the right or left that it appears to "wrap" back on itself. Is this what you mean?



Not quite.....

I have the service manual and when I follow the set up procedures to center the raster, the right side of the raster has a double image. That image will go away when I turn the HBLK back to 1 from 0.


----------



## williamtassone

"Have I missed the battle"- Commodus











Glen,


Ken has made a wealth of information available to the common man and has alleviated the suffering of not only I but hundreds of other Sony owners. Knowledge that otherwise might be privy to industry professionals such as yourself is now accessible to the commoner.Even in Australia this thread is frequently referred to. If it weren't for Ken my XBR910 would be in the trash heap and I would probably be seeing a Cardiologist by now!


Cheers!!


----------



## fred33

As a DY'er, I have learned a lot from this forum. I have even had an ISF pro (he gets paid) here to adjust my set. My experience is that the ISF person has the color detection instruments to guide him to make color adjustments. He can do this to all of my inputs in less than 1 hour. After that, what is there?

I have had the ISF person attempt to correct the geometry and a technician from a local company try to fix my geometry. In BOTH cases, it was hit or miss with them. Their knowledge of where to start first and procedures to follow were no better than what I have learned on here, and on my own. Maybe this is a case of SONY hiding the proper plan or sequence for adjusting the geometry, I am not sure.


In this forum I have found valuable information that has helped and some sketchy information that has confused.


If I were a certified ISF calibrator, I would not want to give out all of my information here, for obvious reasons. (we all want to make some money). On the other hand if you are an ISF calibrator and come in these forums, may I assume you come in to help and share?

As far as post from those who are not ISF calibrators, I see a common thread. That thread attempts a give and take of ideas and information.


As for me, I still wrestle with geometry issues. My latest "trick" was to cut a piece of plexi glass to fit my TV screen. On the plexi glass I drew a calibration pattern of squares and one centered circle. I put it up to my screen and try to match it with a pattern generated from my cd player, or my computer. It has helped a lot, as I am unable to tell if all squares on an generated pattern are the same size on my screen.


KD-34XBR960


----------



## GlenC

No doubt there is a lot of valuable information in this thread going way beyond the ISF calibration scope. While it is directed at the DA-4 chassis, information and concepts in here apply to many other displays. I have agreed many times to the value of this thread. Ken is overly obsessed with the idea that a ISF Calibration is useless and a waste of money, "his" personal opinion. On top of that, most of the input I have tried to contribute or opinions I have expressed have been met by Ken with a seemingly favorite word, WRONG. He is clearly expressing that this is his parade.


Another misunderstanding seems to be the actual scope of an ISF Calibration. Advanced geometry is something that is not supported by the ISF. This is generally referred to service technicians. Geometry is/can be a complex process and one that many repair techs don't even want to do. It is very time consuming. I have a background with CRT projectors and therefore, offer advanced geometry to those who desire the service, within limits. The goal of the basic ISF calibration is to take a video system (TV, DVD, STB etc.), that is working properly, and adjust the picture for its best performance including grayscale. The $225-$250 for an ISF tech to calibrate one input is not all that costly for the few hours of work and travel. Many calibrators offer varying levels of calibration service. At this time, I don't open the 960 and adjust the magnets.


I can easily refrain from any further comments in this thread. Ken seems to make it apparent he doesn't want my participation or differing opinions. My time may be better spent with others.


----------



## fred33

While I may disagree with the cost of and ISF "calibration" and the actual time needed to do the job, it is just that. It is my "opinion" . I know the equipment is expensive and I know there is travel involved. So, for me, the question becomes, am I paying for calibration, or the equipment and travel. For now, those that have the equipment and the training are few and far between and of course that means the price reflects the need versus the availablility.


Like I said, this is just my opinion, and it is not meant to provoke or insight any kind of anger or negative response.


As far as geometry goes, it has been very hard to find the information that I believe I need to do a decent job. Having said that, I have had two service techs attempt adjustment and left with part of my pic "jittery". I have corrected that problem myself through information here and on the net in general.


One day I hope to find all the info I need to make the corrections I want. It seemes to me that anyone who attempts to correct my geometry does not bring with them the expertise to get it done right with out "guessing".

This has all been my experience, and as they say, your experience may vary depending.


So, keep posting info and helping out.


----------



## GlenC

You get what you pay for.....a cheap quick calibration will be just that, cheap and quick. it takes time to get things right, especially if you don't want to make a return visit. One thing you need to keep in mind is the service menu adjustments were put there by the design engineers. They are usually the only ones that know what they do. As needed, through problems, they may tell factory service techs to adjust something. There is no overall reference telling what each adjustment is, know one really knows. Some discoveries are based upon experimentation.


Rates charged for calibration are fairly consistent. A calibrator that really does a good job and spends the necessary time isn't making much money. Yes the fees help cover the misc expenses, research time, travel time, cost of equipment, taxes, training, etc. Experience will generally surface in reduced time spent calibrating, it won't guarantee a better calibration.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not quite.....
> 
> I have the service manual and when I follow the set up procedures to center the raster, the right side of the raster has a double image. That image will go away when I turn the HBLK back to 1 from 0.



HBLK=0 turns off the horizontal edge "blanking shutters" on the sides : 2170D3 LBLK+RBLK. This allows allows you to see the true edges of the raster, and thus center the raster.


In which case the double image on the right side that occurs with HBLK=0 occurs just as Ken described.


----------



## justsc

KenTech & GlenC,


You are both awesome, as are your contributions here. No slight to GlenC, but the "tip of the hat" must go to KenTech for the passion, time and energy spent on this thread.


I try never to say never, but I doubt there will ever come a time when I will understand things at KenTech's level. I definitely can read and appreciate all that's written here, but it's not in my plans to become that good. Because of this, I will eventually get my set calibrated by a pro. And I can think of no pro more qualified and more passionate for display purity than GlenC. If Ken lived close by, I would probably try to coerce him into coming over and helping me with my set. But that's not the spirit of this thread, as he has tried his best to give all owners the knowledge to do it themselves.


I feel badly when the conflicting views reach a fever pitch like this week. In simpleton's terms, it's kinda like watching mommy and daddy fight. I have so much respect for both players. But I must also respect their right to disagree, sometimes strongly disagree. I also believe that good ultimately comes from these battles, which ultimately benefits us all.


Cheers to KenTech and GlenC!


----------



## fred33




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> HBLK=0 turns off the horizontal edge "blanking shutters" on the sides : 2170D3 LBLK+RBLK. This allows allows you to see the true edges of the raster, and thus center the raster.
> 
> 
> In which case the double image on the right side that occurs with HBLK=0 occurs just as Ken described.



What?


I believe Ken was trying to see if the seemingly mirror image on the right side of the raster was caused by the picture pallet being moved to far. All I can say is, I set up the raster to center using HCNT and following the service manual. All the manual says is to set NBLK to zero and the AGNG to 2. It also wants you to set HPOS and HSIZ to 31. When I do this, the right side of the raster has a double image.


Ok...this maybe an oooops. I just checked again and it seems its the AGNG setting to 2, that brings up the washed out look and the double image to the right side of the raster.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have the service manual and when I follow the set up procedures to center the raster, the right side of the raster has a double image. That image will go away when I turn the HBLK back to 1 from 0.



I guess this is another reason for the usual overscan and blanking the garbage at the edge. When I first did the raster and image centering, I was appalled at how whacked out the raster was on all edges: nonlinearities, weird extra lines, foldovers, etc. So much for a zero overscan on _this_ CRT-TV!


With only 4% overscan and the appropriate blanking to keep the beam off the sides of the CRT, I got my observed picture to be nearly perfect. The proper centering of the raster, and then the video frame on the raster, allows you to minumize the overscan. I don't think I can go any lower than 4% on my set without revealing those edge "special effects." You sorta have to balance things, and it all sounds normal to me.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What?



Just what I said, I see no reason to repeat it.



> Quote:
> All I can say is, I set up the raster to center using HCNT and following the service manual. All the manual says is to set NBLK to zero and the AGNG to 2. It also wants you to set HPOS and HSIZ to 31.



Yes, I did that as well(I assume you mean HBLK), and noticed Raster was properly centered at the factory on my set.



> Quote:
> When I do this, the right side of the raster has a double image.



Yes, the "double image" on my set with HBLK=0 extends about 5" or so from Right side of raster, of course I would have never seen it had I not temporarily turned off the blanking shutters using "HBLK=0" to center the raster.


And, if you set HBLK to 1 (again, turns on the Horizontal blanking shutters just as I said it does, and just as has been covered a few times earlier in this thread) the "double image goes away, just as it should .... You'll see the same thing if you set HBLK to "1" and "RBLK" to either it's maximum or minimum value(I forget which one - I think Minimum.), or somewhat "near it".


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I set up the raster to center using HCNT and following the service manual. All the manual says is to set NBLK to zero and the AGNG to 2. It also wants you to set HPOS and HSIZ to 31. When I do this, the right side of the raster has a double image.



Where (i.e. what page or section, of the service manual for what set) are the instructions to set HPOS and HSIZ to 31? is this just to begin with, or to end up with?


Clearly these are adjustment controls meaning they are intended to be tweaks, not constants for us to live with.


Just in passing, I did my 1080i H/V position/size and overscan tweaks using a 1920x1080i test pattern projected by DisplayMate for Windows Video Edition on my PC, connected to my XBR960 from the DVI-to-component output of my PC's ATI Radeon 9800 Pro video card. The ATI Catalyst video drivers had the XBR960 set as a second monitor running at 1080i, 1920x1080 resolution. Other 1080i tweaking values were HBLK=1 and VBLK=1. Associated values at 1080i (also unchanged from the factory defaults) were LBLK=51, RBLK=31, TBLK=4 and BBLK=6.


And at 1080i I ended up with HCNT=32, HPOS=32, HSIZ=41, VPOS=28, and VSIZ=32. I have no anomalies on any of the four edges at 1080i.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Where (i.e. what page or section, of the service manual for what set) are the instructions to set HPOS and HSIZ to 31? is this just to begin with, or to end up with?



Pg. 41 - Section 2-8 of KD-30XS955/34XBR960/34XS955/36XS955 service manual.


Setting HCNT/HPOS to 31 isn't really important IMO, other than it being a mid-range value to "start with", such as, say, if you've "lost" the adjustments done at the factory for some reason. However, setting HBLK=0 (or values for RBLK/LBLK that will "get rid" of the side shutters so you can see the true edge of raster) is important. Setting 2170P-2 AGNG temporarily to 2 doesn't seem to actually "move" or effect the posistion or size of raster in any useful way on my set(KD34XBR960, manufactured in PA Jan 2005) for centering raster but I did it anyway when checking centering because it "said so" ...


Here's what it says(sorry for the formatting, it's easier on the eyes if if you look at the chart in the printed version) :


:quote


2-8. H RASTER CENTER ADJUSTMENT

Preparation:

Input a monoscope signal.

Set to NTSC (DRC) mode.


1. Set to Service Mode and adjust as follows:


CXA2170P-2

NO. Name Control Function Data

05 AGNG AGING 1, AGING 2 2


CXA2170D-2

NO. Name Control Function Avg. Data

02 HSIZ Horiz Size 31

01 HPOS Horiz Position 31


CXA2170D-3

NO. Name Control Function Avg. Data

00 HBLK Blanking Enable 0


2. Reduce HSIZ to see sides of raster. (See Figure A)

3. Adjust H-Center with CXA2170D-2.

4. Adjust to the best screen position with H-CENT and write data.

5. Restore aging, HSIZ and HBLK to original condition.


:end quote




> Quote:
> I have no anomalies on any of the four edges at 1080i.



There shouldn't be any with your settings. However, Set HBLK temporarily to 0 (or LBLK=63/RBLK=0 - unless I have that backwards and it's LBLK=0/RBLK=63 to "remvoe" the "side shutters" that keep the beam from hitting side of the tube) and reduce HSIZ so you can see the true edges of the raster and you'll likely see some "anomalies".


BTW, FWIW(not much) HCNT=38(the setting from the factory) centers the raster on my set(KD34XBR960). I checked it with several different sources, including via setting MID1/BCOL=6 (BCOL=0 is black, BCOL=15 is white) to a higher value, which can be used to create, for example "grey bars" on the side of a 480i DRC processed signal used with "normal" (4x3) screen viewing mode or for a grey background for "twin view".


----------



## williamtassone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I can easily refrain from any further comments in this thread..
> 
> .




you can't do that Glen cause without these heated discussions bums like me wouldn't learn anything!!


If I had an ISF calibrator where I live in Australia I wouldn't have endured 2 years of Sony's trained chimp technicians.


For guys like me, this thread, and everyone in it, is as good as it gets.


Will


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Where (i.e. what page or section, of the service manual for what set) are the instructions to set HPOS and HSIZ to 31? is this just to begin with, or to end up with? . . . Clearly these are adjustment controls meaning they are intended to be tweaks, not constants for us to live with.



The manual (this is section 2.8) commonly does not use very clear English. Those values are temporary starting points.


Suppose you have a TV that is already adjusted (but maybe not perfectly), and now you want to perfectly center the raster and frame. I would first note the _original_ settings of HPOS and HSIZ before proceeding, just for insurance. Then change them to 31 and proceed as the manual says -- temporary values for the purposes of this centering adjustment.


Having performed the centering opeation, you might now have new values for HPOS and HCNT, and so you accept those, and return AGNG to 0 and HBLK to 1. But HSIZ can be returned to the former value, or you can reconsider your overscan, having tweaked those messy edges. (And readjust the blanking shutters.) I was able to reduce overscan to 3-4% from the much higher value it had been. There's no magic value for HSIZ. On my 36XS955 it ended up at 30. HCNT ended up at 36, and HPOS at 25.


I believe the temporary AGNG=2 switch renders all of the raster visible, including what is normally hiding in the blanked vertical- and horizintal-retrace intervals.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I believe the temporary AGNG=2 switch renders all of the raster visible, including what is normally hiding in the blanked vertical- and horizintal-retrace intervals.



Could be, or perhaps it could have a "different" effect per set model(4x3 tube vs 16x9 tube/etc).


As I noted in my last post : on my KD34XBR960 as I recall(and I do recall as I made a note of it) I could see no discernable difference in the "size" or appearance of edges of the raster concerning setting AGNG=2(even though I did so anyway) instead of AGNG=0 while centering raster(yes, with HBLK=0 and HSIZ set so I could see both edges), and while looking at the horizontal edges of raster.


Either way, HCNT=38 centers the raster on my set, with 2170P2/AGNG=0 or 2. Not that it matters, as it's no big deal to set AGNG temporarily to 2 while centering raster .....


I don't recall what I experienced with this with the vertical edges of raster and VBLK=0/etc.


----------



## GlenC

A couple of general points here. These are magnetic deflection devices and to a slight extent, geo magnetism will affect alignment differently in different parts of the globe. The settings of the magnetic rings on the neck of the tube can also affect centering. This is why a setting of 31 is right for one TV and 38 or something else will yield the same results on another TV.


As for the AGNG, if memory serves me, it totally illuminates the full raster even if the image doesn't fill the raster. This can be helpful at times. Re-configuring the geometry is not for the casual tweaker. Every adjustment can come into play during a major re-configuration, size, phase, linearity, position and on and on and on. There is so much ping-pong adjusting it is a lengthy exercise in patience and slowly converging on the desired result. I have adjusted the geometry and centering on the 960 to achieve 0% overscan, however the input signals and programming doesn't work well with 0%. This is a major reason why many newer digital, fixed pixel displays are being produced with 2% overscan and not adjustable to 0%.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As for the AGNG, if memory serves me, it totally illuminates the full raster even if the image doesn't fill the raster.



I think that certianly makes sense. In my case, I believe I was using an "Image" which does fill the entire raster, so perhaps that is why I did not notice a difference in raster "size", or any differences at the edge of the raster with AGNG=0 vs. AGNG=2.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Every adjustment can come into play during a major re-configuration, size, phase, linearity, position and on and on and on.





> Quote:
> The settings of the magnetic rings on the neck of the tube can also affect centering.



Excellent post Glen(in it's entirety) ! And, I don't think the first quote above concerning how "every adjustment can come into play" can be stressed enough for those who may not be completely familiar with such "issues", and also the importance of writing down the factory adjusted values before you change anything, in case you need to go back to it ...


Having went through this on another set/model of DV-CRT I own, which was extremely poorly aligned at the factory in this regard -- and, given that on that set, after much time and effort I was able to make significant improvements from the factory settings, I am certianly very aware of everything you've said ... I would not want to add up the time I spent with deflection issues on that particular set .. However, given the set was an inexpenisve model, seeing the results of the improvements made was quite "satisfiying" ...


Anyhow -- Concerning my Sony DA-4 Chassis set(KD34XBR960) - On my particular set -- a few things I've noticed which I think are along those lines follow :


While HCNT=38 (the factory adjusted value) centers raster horizontally on my set, HCNT=40 offers slightly(very slighly) improved horizontal linearity. As another example, change "SLIN" value, and I(and I expect everyone else who changes it) will need to adjust HSIZ as well for proper aspect ratio.


As another example, the value used for VPOS effects geometry(SCRL doesn't) : perhaps most visably to an extent somewhat similar(but still "different") to the effects of "PPHA", and perhaps in a slightly "different" way, somewhat similar to the effects of VANG/LANG, and also I believe the "straightness" of horizontal lines are effected slightly by VPOS as well. I have in fact spent a bit of time trying to see if I can find a value for VPOS that makes things "better" than the factory value(as a similar adjustment on another model set made for quite an improvement) -- enough time to say with confidence the factory value of 26 is best ....


---------------------------



On my set, I suspect the permalloy assemblies(magnets - i.e. "chevron magnets") placed on the back of the tube in various places at the factory may also be a factor concerning "geometry" issues, particluarly perhaps why I expect It may be difficult to improve upon the factory adjusted SM values concerning a couple of "small" distortions, given the alignment in this regard already performed at the factory.


Luckily, however -- On my particular set, although I have spent a bit of time improving, or trying to improve geometry issues(various small "distortions", lets say), and I have been able to achieve some improvement while making sure I haven't made anything "worse" -- more improvement probably really isn't necessary, nor do I feel motivated to spend much more time on it.


Thankfully for the most part it seems they did a fairly good job with alignment of this set at the factory, perhaps especially in regards to deflection, or "geometry". Concerning effects of Earth's magnetic field, perhaps it is beneficial to some very small degree that I'm only a few hundred miles West of the plant in Eastern PA where the set was assembled, as I believe the effects of the Earth's magnetic field should be extremely similar, and, my set does face west(not because I planned it that way, just by luck I suppose), which I believe I had read is how the set is to be placed for alignment ....


For instance : Vertical Linearity(as evidenced by "measuring" the distance between horizontal lines with a cross hatch pattern up) was/is right on the money from the factory. And most thankfully, there are no "bends" in horizontal lines which are "generally" noticable, nor is there much more than a 1/16" or so difference along any Horizontal line in a cross-hatch pattern as measured from say, the bezel as a reference point. Circles in the AVIA 16x9 circle hatch pattern are circles ---- although, with HCNT=38(factory adjusted "default" value on my set) the small right circles are slightly wider than tall, and the small left circles are very slightly taller than wide - not noticable by looking at them really -- but noticable via measurement - They're perfect circles with HCNT=40, and yes, that inprovement in Horizontal linearity (Note: also evidenced by measuring the distance between vertical lines "across the screen" in cross hatch pattern and comparing any differences in different portions of screen)includes using all factory set values being used other than HCNT=40....


On my set(only relevant to my set of course, although perhaps it may be of some small value for folks) --- To quickly summarize What I have done regarding geometry+overscan which has involved changes+improvement (of course, I don't keep any changes that don't offer any improvments) has been :


#1) Reducing overscan to about 4.5%(it was about 8% from the factory - yikes)


#2). changing S-correction parameter slightly -- "SLIN=6" from "SLIN=5" factory value - which not only slightly improved the "straightness" of vertical lines, but also improved horizontal Linearity, as you might imagine.


3). Adjusted Blanking shutters(horizontal+vertical) slightly.


4). For proper AR to result for "zoom" mode, ASPT needed to be changed from factory value of "43" to "52". The factory default value of "43" results in "squished" circles(wider than they are tall, although proper AR/proper circles occur in say "full" or "normal" mode), including with all "factory" settings used elsewhere ..... I did find that rather odd, surely folks would rather have more of the top/bottom "cropped off" in "zoom mode" rather than to view programming(including letterboxed 16x9 programs) with distorted aspect ratio ..... As I do not believe it has been mentioned on this thread, I'm am curious if others have ran into this as well ....


I haven't settled yet on "HCNT=40"(slightly improved horizontal linearity) or "HCNT=38"(centers raster), as I haven't yet spent the time to detirmine whether or not HCNT=40 makes anything else "worse", and, I can't really see a difference just "looking at the screen" -- However, with overscan at around 4.5%, I can currently use either value for HCNT while keeping proper centering or causing any problems "on the edges" of the visable frame without changing anything else other than HPOS and RBLK/LBLK.


That was probably more than anyone wanted to know, Sorry!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ken is overly obsessed with the idea that a ISF Calibration is useless and a waste of money, "his" personal opinion. On top of that, most of the input I have tried to contribute or opinions I have expressed have been met by Ken with a seemingly favorite word, WRONG. He is clearly expressing that this is his parade.



No point is analyzing Glen's defensiveness. I have never said that competent calibration is useless, ISF or otherwise. It is a cost/benefit matter, and readers of this forum can make the decision how to spend their dollars. And I have said _that_ several times!


I am, however, dedicated to defending technical points I make with supportive science and other sources. The reason I have little respect for the exaggerated claim of the "need" for exact 6500K white-point calibration is because the scientific evidence is not in its favor but rather argues for the adaptiveness of human vision, aka "color constancy." (Google it!) Meaning that, with a little work, one can come within a few hundred K of 6500K, and (very important) the viewer's eye will never sense that something is wrong. Glen's essential argument that "You gotta get that 6500K just right, or you don't know what you're missing" smacks of the promotion of the calibration profession, of which he is a member. It appears to instill doubt rather than enlightenment -- and of course, certified calibrators are waiting for your call . . .


The argument of "director's intent" is specious. The consistency of professional monitors used to make production and artistic decisions is a certain requirement, and 6500K is the accepted standard. That _that_ must now be extended to the home TV or something is wrong is a claim that has not been made rationally; it just keeps getting repeated. Repetition does not make it true. The science argues that, if grayscale is linear (light and dark tones are the same color) and the white point is near 6500K, you will sense completely any "director's intent." Shall I post a few technical references?


> Quote:
> Ken seems to make it apparent he doesn't want my participation or differing opinions.



Yeah, like there haven't been a wide variety of differing opinions expressed in this thread! I've learned a lot from these opinions, too, and sometimes thay set me off on a new quest to figure something out -- and I have said so here. All contributors can be proud of the successful history of this thread!


I also stated in the last couple posts of mine:


"People who have no interest in fiddling with the service codes -- and the discipline it requires not to screw things up -- are well-advised to pay a calibrator to do the job, as should those folks who find themselves adrift without success, confused, or frustrated by having tried. That's why any of us pay someone to do any job for us, no?"


and


"The scope of this particular discussion is very narrow: the purported "requirement" of a precise 6500K color temperature of white. No other aspect of [Glen's] calibration routine is being questioned."


> Quote:
> He is clearly expressing that this is his parade.



It should be clear that I will do what I can to keep this thread aligned with its original purpose as stated in message #1, and that is to be a service to the DIY enthusiast and focused on the Sony direct-view TVs that share the DA-4 chassis and their service codes. _Of course_, relevant science can be discussed. But there are other threads for other specific purposes, notably one called Display Calibration.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I guess I should have used different numbers, the point being 3/8" = .375" not .370".
> 
> 
> Intended application has a big impact. Aerospace versus house building tolerances are quite different. As for the TV, the eye can distinguish a .004 variation in the CIE coordinates where D65 is .313x/.329y. My life would be much simpler if I calibrated to 6500K (a range) instead of D65 (a point). If I can't get the TV to track evenly at D65 (most of the time), I make every effort to minimize the plus green errors throughout the range.
> 
> 
> There is a standard, D65, if anyone pays for a calibration, they deserve the calibration to be as close to D65 as possible, no ifs ands or buts.



Glen,


I have nothing against anyone getting an ISF calibration from someone such as yourself. In fact, I wouldn't even discourage it or try to talk someone out of it if they wanted it. It has value, and many benefit greatly from it. The information in this thread, as clear and detailed as it is, is still far beyond anything the average consumer is willing to delve into.


That being said, I want to make clear that I do not believe that my "DIY" calibration is as accurate as yours would be with all of your knowledge, equipment, etc.. I do believe, however, that it is likely in the right ball park of say a reference of +/- 250 from 6500 with hopefully not more than a 300-500 variation from that reference from 10-100 IRE. I am pleased with the results I have gotten, which are an astronomical improvement of the factory settings.


IMO, this the best thread ever. I have been able to improve my set ten fold, including many things that go significantly beyond what an ISF calibration covers, and I haven't spent a single penny on any of it. On top of this, I have learned a great deal about TV adjustments in general, which will benefit me in the future when I eventually upgrade to another display.


----------



## GlenC

One, I have never stated you have to have the grayscale at 6500K to enjoy viewing. I have merely stated that I strive for an accurate grayscale as close to D65 as possible. Additionally, with my equipment, I can be relatively sure I did not error plus green.


I will say, just as 2 + 2 = 4, if a movie is mastered at D65 and white is displayed at any other color temperature, what you are seeing is different from the original or intended. Can you tell the difference?, depends on the variance. In a technical sense (this is measurable), if white is plus blue, from D65, then the secondary colors, with blue (magenta and cyan), will also be off (plus blue). Each of the NTSC and HDTV primary and secondary colors have specific CIE x/y coordinates defining the colorspace.


CRT TVs strong point is color fidelity, because SMPTE developed the color space around the available colors of phosphor. The CRT weak point is geometry and focus. Compromise is necessary with all displays, none exist that are the best on all points. The best CRT DV would probably be the Sony BVM series, for serious dollars. I have a BVM-1310 13 that is NTSC only, 480i, however displays an awesome picture from a DVD via component. This was originally a $5K monitor.


As for improving the grayscale from factory that can be a tough task, by eye. Generally, the 960s I have seen, have been within 200K to 300K of 6500K and some within 200K throughout the entire grayscale. Geometry is another thing, it can be all over the place, magnetics..


Those of you that have calibrated your own TVs, care to tell us the number of hours you have invested?


I really don't understand how some can take comments about ISF calibration trying to achieve a D65 grayscale, for a paying customer, as anything more than providing a deserved/expected level of professional service. I don't care if you have a 5500K low IRE and a 12000K white grayscale.


There is nothing un-scientific about using calibrated measuring equipment to set the grayscale to the industry standard.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...Those of you that have calibrated your own TVs, care to tell us the number of hours you have invested?
> 
> 
> I really don't understand how some can take comments about ISF calibration trying to achieve a D65 grayscale, for a paying customer, as anything more than providing a deserved/expected level of professional service. I don't care if you have a 5500K low IRE and a 12000K white grayscale.
> 
> 
> There is nothing un-scientific about using calibrated measuring equipment to set the grayscale to the industry standard.



Time is the issue for me.


I have the technical "chops" to learn what I need from this thread and perform a DIY calibration, thanks to KenTech. But the time would be prohibitive. And it's just a personal thing. The number of extracirricular activities in which I'm involved, and the priorities at which I place them, just do not allow me to take the time required to do justice to my tv.


Time for all of us is very valuable. If I compare the hourly rate at which I'm paid, to the "averaged hourly rate" charged by a pro calibrator, I save significant money by paying a pro calibrator to do the job. AND, I get a much better product because of his investment in the proper equipment and his acquired knowledge.


Like I said, this is just for my personal situation. I believe I get a super deal from a pro calibrator when all is said and done. I regret not having the time to study and do it myself, but by paying a pro I get to spend the time gained with those involved in my higher priorities.


Cheers!


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Generally, the 960s I have seen, have been within 200K to 300K of 6500K and some within 200K throughout the entire grayscale.



Am I correct in assuming you may be reffering to use of the "warm" Color Temp offset on XBR960, which is labeled in the menu as "NTSC Color standard" ?



> Quote:
> Those of you that have calibrated your own TVs, care to tell us the number of hours you have invested?



Quite a bit of time, and quite a bit of fun(including reading this thread). It would be difficult to estimate any sort of "round figure' how much time or fun .... As, for example often I will make adjustments during "ordinary viewing time", while I'm watching TV, after noticing something here or there, or reading something here and trying it. It is not as if it is a task with "hours invested" such as if one were an hourly worker cleaning horse stables ..... As for the most time spent working within SM on any particular "task" involving my set outside of "ordinary viewing time", I'd have to say I've probably spent the most time with the "image processing settings"(although indeed those can't be boiled down to one, "bone fide" task), as has been discussed on this thread previously.


Is a "detailed" DIY calibration for everyone? Of course not, noone is saying it is .....




> Quote:
> As for improving the grayscale from factory that can be a tough task, by eye.



I think one thing that is great about this thread, and BOTH Ken and your (and others) comments on Greyscale is that it is one of the very, very few places I know of where good, accurate info is available to assist those who *do* try to improve upon greyscale "by eye", so to speak ....


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Am I correct in assuming you may be referring to use of the "warm" Color Temp offset on XBR960, which is labeled in the menu as "NTSC Color standard" ?



Yes, but that is only if you haven't changed the Cut/Drive settings. Typically, I will calibrate the Neutral color which seems to be set around 8000K from the factory. This leaves me with the option to adjust Warm to 5500K, for those who like it for old B&W movies, and the Cool for other possible color correction needs, like the effects room color and daytime lighting can have on grayscale.


Once, calibrating a RPTV in a slightly yellow room, (Yellow is made with Red and Green), I was working on the grayscale, every time the sun hit the wall of the room as the clouds/overcast was starting to clear, my readings kept going minus blue. This was the most effective, hands-on, demonstration of the significant impact of the viewing environment affecting grayscale.


Just as a reminder, grayscale, on the Sony is global, with two offsets available, Cool/Warm. The "white balance" adjustment for each of the inputs and scan-rates is fine tuned with the individual offsets.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, but that is only if you haven't changed the Cut/Drive settings.



What I do is "keep" the warm offset the same as was the case from the factory for reference, and use Neutral+cool for my own settings(I primarily use the cool offset for expermientation..)


So, From the factory I had :


Neutral/ RDRV~BCUT : 32-22-24-32-21-17


Factory Warm Offset values (RDOF~BCOF for "warm") : 31-26-16-31-27-19 - Note that this results in "effective" values which would be the same as using RDRV~BCUT = 32-17-9-32-17-5.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Currently, I'm using RDRV~BCUT(for "Netural" selection via user menu) = 32-17-9-32-16-9 for normal viewing and for "warm Offset" values (RDOF~BCOF for "warm") - 31-31-31-31-32-27 - which results in "effective" values which would be the exactly the same as the factory default for warm offset as "applied" to RDRV~BCUT : 32-17-9-32-17-5.


--------------


In a dark room, The Factory "warm" offset has slight "greenish tint" to greyscale(as evidenced with color "off" and a grey step pattern, or B&W programming/etc.), otherwise I believe it's generally fairly close to 6500K ...... It is easily evident that the factory "cool" and "neutral" settings are very much on the "cool" side ....


----------



## GlenC

You are aware, that all of the grayscales revolve around the neutral cuts and drives? If you reduce blue in neutral, you will reduce blue in cool and warm. If you reduce the C/D offset in cool or warm, there is no affect on the other color temps.


If you reduce blue in neutral, then, yes, warm might look a little green. When you reduce blue, you effectively increase green and red a little.


Don't get too caught up in any mathematical relationships to the cut drive and offset numbers. This is an analog device with three different phosphors. If you reduce R/G/B DRV all by 1, the color will most likely change. The luminance level of the three will react differently.


Greenish, can also result from watching +blue color temps. I have seen it before myself. Things just didn't look right, so I brought out my D65 B&W monitor to verify what i was seeing.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You are aware, that all of the grayscales revolve around the neutral cuts and drives?



Yes, I believe that should have been apparent from my last post? Sorry if I was not clear enough ... I did notice there was a typo when I typed "BDRV~BCUT" although I meant to refer to the entire RDRV~BCUT, I have edited my post to fix this error.


Update: oops, when editing that noticed I also incorrectly indicated in last post I am currently using "GCOF=30" for my current warm offset ... I've also corrected this, it is GCOF=32".



> Quote:
> If you reduce blue in neutral, you will reduce blue in cool and warm. If you reduce the C/D offset in cool or warm, there is no affect on the other color temps.



Right. As another example, If I were to say, raise GCUT to "17" from its current "16", I would then change GCOF for "warm offset" to "31", to keep warm offset the same as the values which resulted from the factory for "warm offset" ..... (you may need to refer to my last post to hopefully understand what I'm talking about there .....)



> Quote:
> If you reduce blue in neutral, then, yes, warm might look a little green. When you reduce blue, you effectively increase green and red a little.



Of course. Yes, I know this. If you look at the values I provided in my last post, you'll see my warm offset REMAINS exactly the same as it was when I received the set new - not the actual values, but the "actual" result is the same.


I adjust the values for warm offset ,accordingly so it allways remains the

"same as it was from the factory whenever I change the values for neutral .... Again -- so I have the same exact "result" on screen for "warm offset" as was the case with the factory adjusted values, I don't USE the exact same values for RDOF~BCOF, obviouosly since I've changed RDRV~BCUT ...


For example -- Factory setting for "BCUT"=17. Factory setting for "warm offset" BCOF=19 --- Which is exactly the SAME for "warm" as if I were using "BCUT=5" which of course would effect only "neutral" directly.


In other words, I could change RDRV~BCUT to 32-17-9-32-17-5 and I would get exactly the same thing for "neutral" as what results with the factory(or current) warm offset.


For the RDOF~BCOF values(for cool or warm offsets), "31" is "0" offset from the RDRV~BCUT values, Numbers less than 31 are (minus) offset, numbers greater than "31" are "plus" offset. Therefore, if I have BCUT=9 which effects "neutral(and neutral is what I use for actually watching the set), Warm offset BCOF=27 equates to a BCUT value of "5" ... In other words, when I switch to "warm offset" in the user menu, it would be the same thing as having BCUT=5 If I were using "neutral".


I hope what I tried to say in my last post is clearer now?


Also, Just to clarify, other than being curious if you were reffering to "warm offset" conerning your comment about 960s you've worked with being near 6500K, I don't believe I was asking any questions regarding this subject, nevertheless, as allways thanks for your comments and additional insight, as it may be useful to others whom are reading.



> Quote:
> Don't get too caught up in any mathematical relationships to the cut drive and offset numbers. This is an analog device with three different phosphors.



I'm well aware of this, I am not getting caught up in "mathmatical relationships", and in no way shape or form has my adjustments of greyscale ever tried to "look for" a mathmatical "relationship" .....


The factory values for Warm offset(RDOF~BCOF) which equate to RDRV~BDRV = 32-17-9-32-17-5 aren't Mine, They were the values which "effectively" result for "warm offset" from the factory. I hope that makes sense, it is a little difficult to say what I'm trying to say in a completely "accurate, or precise way given the way the "offsets" work. Or, at least I can't seem to come up with a good way to say it so folks understand what I'm saying .....


I am not currently using RDRV~BCUT 32-17-9-32-16-9(to clarify that IS what I'm using, and "neutral" primarily for viewing) because of any Mathmatical relationship, I'm using it because of what I see, and because of how my black+white levels are set elsewhere ......... And no, I cannot say arriving at those "values" was "easy" without say, The use of an optical compartor such as Your Sony B&W pro monitor to, or the equipment used by a ISF calibrator .... Nor can I say, obviously with any certianity that it's 6500K/D65 ..... Of course, while it might be nice to be able to say that, I really have no need to say that either, all I really care about is how it "looks" ....


While I do have what I believe would be decent optical comparators to use to some extent = the best one weighs 150lbs(Toshiba 34HF84) and would need to be carried down a flight of stairs. I did have a pro B&W monitor in the garage, but I sold it several years ago, and can't vouch for weather or not it was 6500K .... And, note that no, for the 34HF84 I do not have any verfiable "scientific proof" that it's greyscale is D65/6500K(using it's warm offset) or very close to it, as was the case I believe with my RCAF38310 as well(the XBR960 is a warranty replacement for it), however, BOTH of those sets just had "perfect"(or close to it) looking greyscale from the factory to my eyes(the RCA may have been just a slight bit +red+a bit on the warm side with its warm offset).


And, I also believe my eyes are probably pretty good at knowing what ~6500K "white" looks like(just like the clouds at mid-day Ken has mentioned). Perhaps part of that comes from 30 years taking photographs(many of them in "outdoor enviornments), and 10 years of doing photo editing work on some of those photos on a PC(I even still use film and a 35mm film(negative) scanner, believe it or not, even though I use digital as well) .... I don't know ...


For lack of a better, "scientific" way to say it(and no, this really isn't "entirely accurate", either) --- The way I "see "white" on the screen from a set with a hopefully well calibrated greyscale(D65/6500K), is just the perfect "blend" of R/G/B ...... If white, and every step of grey, and "black" as well doesn't "look right" then I have a problem ..... If that is somehow "incorrect", well honestly, I really don't care ...


As long as I see nice, "perfect" whites(such as the white of mid-day clouds, as ken has mentioned) and "linear greyscale" without color contamination(too blue, too green, or too red) from IRE 0 (black, IRE 7.5 for NTSC of course) to IRE 100 (whilte), I really don't care what the actual "values" being used are, or what the Color temp is .... Of course, the R/B offsets CBOF/CROF come into play here as well when you "increase" the color slider above "0" ... The methods of adjustment to CBOF/CROF Ken has described previously has worked very well for me as well .... No change in "tint" with good B&W program material(the kind without all the added tint they ad in sometimes) throughout range of "brightness" and "color" slider ... Same thing as well -- Neutral grey throughout brightness/color slider range with video black up on the screen .....


Maybe that's not the way it is "supposed to be", but I surely certianly seem to like it ....



> Quote:
> If you reduce R/G/B DRV all by 1, the color will most likely change. The luminance level of the three will react differently.



Absolutely. In fact, Currently On my set R/G/B DRV(32-17-9) remains the same for Neutral(what I use for viewing) as "equates" to the warm offset values from the factory(as I hopefully explained well enough before).



> Quote:
> Greenish, can also result from watching +blue color temps. I have seen it before myself. Things just didn't look right, so I brought out my D65 B&W monitor to verify what i was seeing.



I believe I can say fairly confidently This wasn't/isn't a result of watching and becoming used to +Blue color temps, although I can live with a slight bit of +blue, or +red moreso than I can +green (for some reason +green "greyscale is especially annoying to me) ....


Clearly, there was +green going on with the "warm" offset(factory netural+cool were just WAY too cool/too blue), and it appeared to my eyes that perhaps the "warm offset" is/was(again, I've kept it allways so warm offset remains exactly as it was from the factory) perhaps just a tad on the "warm" side .... hard to say though, for all I know, it could be a bit on the "cool" side of 6500K ....


Of course, using what was the "factory" warm offset as a reference(or using experimental "cool" offset values that are very close to neutral), all it takes is +1 or -1 for any value of RDRV~BCUT from my prefereed "neutural" settings for things to look "not right" .... Too warm, too cool, +blue, +red, +green/etc ...


Since I can detect and have a "problem" with a difference as little as +1 or -1 for any value of RDRV~BCUT from my "preferred" values, it certianly seems to me I must have things awfully close to how I "want them" ..... Is it 6500K, and conform to D65? I dunno, but it certianly looks awfully good to me ... I've spent enough time with this to say I certianly can't seem to find another set of values that look "better", and I've tried quite a few of them for relatively extended periods of time ....


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> (for some reason +green "greyscale is especially annoying to me) ....



As it is for most.


Green is the easiest color to see. If you look at the CIE chart, the majority of it is green. Next comes red and blue is the least visible. Some CRT RPTVs don't even have focus rings on the blue tubes. Anyway back to the point, to error +green is a major no-no. This is why I offered information about D65 vs. 6500K for calibration with a color analyzer. You can easily see if there is a +green issue. Therefore, my choice is to error +blue, if I can't get D65. Even +red is noticeable, especially in the low IREs.


The whole goal is getting the TV to perform the best for yourself or the customer. If it looks good to you, you are happy. One thing I have noticed since I have had my Displays calibrated, I know the color is right and if the picture doesn't look right, it might be intentional or problems with the broadcast. I continually adjust brightness for different programs or lighting conditions, but never get into color saturation or tint. Viewing is much more pleasurable.


If I were tweaking my 960 without calibration equipment, I would leave neutral at factory and adjust the Cool and Warm offsets to watch. I would use warm for low light/night and cool for daytime, compensating for room color.


I cannot comment on the validity of keeping the offset relationship the same. For me, it would have to be proven with measurements. From my earlier comment, I am not sure increasing the offset 1 to compensate for a reduction in cut/drive will give uniform results. The actual delta in cut/drive voltages for each step change may not be the same delta for the offsets.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I cannot comment on the validity of keeping the offset relationship the same.



From what I can tell what results on screen seems to be exactly the same whether it is #1: RDRV~BCUT 32-17-9-32-17-5, or (as from the factory) :


#2) RDRV~BCUT : 32-22-24-32-21-17


Warm Offset : RDOF~BCOF : 31-26-16-31-27-19


No difference ..... Both(#1 or #2 --- Using "warm offset" for #2) appear exactly the same on screen, slightly +green.


I believe All RDOF~BCOF are are + or - values from the RDRV~BCUT values. If you are using all "31" for RDOF~BCOF, and then Lower RDOF by 1 for "warm offset" it is the same result as lowering RDRV by one value while using "neutral".


Now, There are a couple of other "offset" controls that are available as well besides RDOF~BCOF.



> Quote:
> I am not sure increasing the offset 1 to compensate for a reduction in cut/drive will give uniform results. The actual delta in cut/drive voltages for each step change may not be the same delta for the offsets.



While I understand what you are saying --- It has not been my experience that they are not the same, and if they are in fact not the same, it really doesn't matter all that much if "warm" offset is not a "perfect" reference for me to the factory default(and, that is all I use it for I have no actual use for the factory value as far as using it to "watch" programming), in any case it's similair enough that it's still "greenish" greyscale(the exact same "tint" of green no less) and from what I recall, looks exactly the same as far as my ability to "compare" it(with the "factory defaults" exactly as they were for RDRV~BCUT and warm RDOF~BCOF) from one time to another ....


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I cannot comment on the validity of keeping the offset relationship the same. For me, it would have to be proven with measurements. .




Had a wild thought. Here's a demonstration. Not sure if it is a 100% accurate way to "demonstrate" this, but it's the best I could come up with.


Attached screenshots are both using Warm offset, with the following values :


Top ---- factory defaults :


RDRV~BCUT= 32-22-24-32-21-17


Warm Offset=31-26-16-31-27-19


Bottom - My "adjustments" :


Neutral= 32-17-9-32-16-9


Warm Offset = 31-31-31-31-32-27


Can you "measure" whether they are the same, or if you are so interested, is perhaps there is something else I can do with a digital camera screenshot which would allow you to "measure" or detect any differences that might be present given the two sets of values above ?


In any case, They(top vs bottom greyscale) certianly look the same to me via this "side by side"(well top and bottom) comparision ....


Further notes follow :


Note this is Greyscale Vertical step pattern from avia, I set the display for "full" mode.


I used manual exposure settings on the digital camera which were set identically for both top+bottom shots. Besides the RDRV~BCUT and Warm offset RDOF~BCOF values, nothing else was changed on the set. Also note that with photo editing software, I didn't quite "crop" each shot exactly the same -- I did however use a gamma correction tool once I had both shots "combined", so that it would effect both images exactly the same - I did this as the "exposure" was a little "dark". Also note that the darker portion of top image is an "artifact" of the still photography due to the scanning on the TV and the amount of time the shutter was open/etc.


While of course I doubt this is any where near an accurate way to show what the greyscale actually "is" "on the screen" and as it appears to my eye, I'd think it should show you any differences in greyscale between the two images as described above. What is funny though, is even though the PC/monitor I'm using is not in the same room, from what I can tell, it does seem to look very much the same on my CRT PC monitor(which does have a 6500K Temp setting, which I am in fact using) as it does on the screen of the TV concerning the slight "greenishness" ....


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Those of you that have calibrated your own TVs, care to tell us the number of hours you have invested?



I have spent at least 12+ hours, maybe double that even, but that's for everything - not just greyscale.


So I guess no one has yet tried getting a good greyscale with high _DRV and _CUT values as I have?


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman*
I used manual exposure settings on the digital camera which were set identically for both top+bottom shots. from what I can tell, it does seem to look very much the same on my CRT PC monitor(which does have a 6500K Temp setting, which I am in fact using) as it does on the screen of the TV concerning the slight "greenishness" ....
Jeff, you didn't say, but did you set the camera on manual color-balance? Most digital cameras are really competent at balancing out differing scene illumination to produce a satisfying image resembling what you perceived at the time. If you choose Daylight or Clouds or manually balance the camera for one screen, then the other screen will be properly compared. Otherwise the camera in Auto-CB mode could be cancelling the difference based on the lightest tones or whatever it uses. (My Canon digital camera and GL-2 video camera do this extremely well!)


Second, looking at your image on my calibrated computer screen (perfect grayscale & CT of 6500K), I see that the darker tones are quite greenish-yellow. Is this the way it appears to your eyes? (I hope not.) It would indicate that you need to add considerable blue and maybe remove a little green in the _CUT settings, and reverse-adjust the _DRV just a bit to keep the white point the same. On the other hand, this greenishness could entirely be an artifact of your picture-taking situation, I can't tell.


Attached is a very useful test pattern I built up from other patterns that show absolutely neutral grays in addition to the near-white and near-black regions.

 

Pluge + ExtremeGray.pdf 43.8134765625k . file


----------



## GlenC

Jeff,


I don't have a lot of time to spend with this, and I can't measure the color temps, (pictures too small), however, I see the following:


Top picture has a little more red in the low IRE.

Bottom picture has a slightly lower gamma curve.

The color of both grayscales appear close enough to not really be an issue, not sure which one is right. If I were to choose which to use, I would use the top for night and the bottom for day. A lower gamma curve will be better in ambient light situations. Can't say about the +red.



> Quote:
> So I guess no one has yet tried getting a good greyscale with high _DRV and _CUT values as I have?



Not sure what you mean by high. If you mean high values (40s-60s), then you can be introducing many other issues adversely affecting Gamma, Black level, White level, clipping There is no reason to go there. The tube will only display a certain luminance level before blooming begins. Staying below that point is necessary for proper resolution.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Second, looking at your image on my calibrated computer screen (perfect grayscale & CT of 6500K), I see that the darker tones are quite greenish-yellow.



They look greenish on my monitor too, though my monitor isn't calibrated.



> Quote:
> Attached is a very useful test pattern I built up from other patterns that shown absolutely neutral grays in addition to the near-white and near-black regions.



Ken, this pattern looks grey on my monitor, so my seeing green with Jeff's pattern is consistent.


I have been playing with my settings some more, and I think I have improved upon what I listed before. My settings now:


RDRV = 63

GDRV = 33

BDRV = 33


RCUT = 63

GCUT = 34

BCUT = 32


Upon more detailed scutiny, I detected a slightly reddish and greenish push with the previous settings, and tried some new adjustments. I think now, I probably have a little plus blue, but the slight green and red appears to be gone. I wish I could photgraph my screen like Jeff.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Note this is Greyscale Vertical step pattern from avia, I set the display for "full" mode.



I should mention some of the problems with grayscale patterns.


A top-to-bottom pattern is likely to warp the aperture-grille slightly (but not permamently!) after a few seconds, altering the color of that bar slightly. Reducing the brightness way down doesn't necessarily eliminate the problem. Top-to-bottom bright areas are a challenge for aperture-grille stability! I'm glad that these Sony DA-4 sets have an aggressive average-brightness limiter for full-screen white/bright, common in advertising.


Further, a CRT screen can have slight color variations over its major dimensions. It is much better to put up a pattern that has several small grayscal step-patterns in different locations onscreen. This would have to be a custom pattern for memory-stick use or fed from a computer source; I know of none on the usual test DVDs. The source doesn't matter, since this adjustment can be done with Color slider set to Min in the User Menus.


A grayscale step pattern should not have too many steps or be a continuous gradient; the eye will have a harder time seeing errors between diffrent-brightness steps. I have used the simple coarse scale on the image I just posted with great success. Moreover, with the different gray steps in close proximity to each other, the eye will see color differences between then easily.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Jeff, you didn't say, but did you set the camera on manual color-balance?



I had it set for complete manual control(other than I allowed it to auto focus) ---- "simulated" ASA 200 "film speed", F4.5, 1/15 sec. shutter speed. No auto color balancing going on.



> Quote:
> Second, looking at your image on my calibrated computer screen (perfect grayscale & CT of 6500K), I see that the darker tones are quite greenish-yellow. Is this the way it appears to your eyes?



That is exactly how it appears to my eyes on screen in the darker tones(although it exists in lighter tones as well to some extent on the TV - correction/clarifaction - I meant with other sources, such as good B&W programming, I didn't notice it on this step pattern), and [clarification/update], is what I notice on the CRT PC monitor I'm using as well.



> Quote:
> (I hope not.)



[remainder of post significantly updated for(hopefully) clarity's sake].


Don't worry Ken! The images were using the FACTORY greyscale settings for "warm offset" values, not my "preferred" settings.


Top image was with factory default RDRV~BCUT and factory default for Warm offset RDOF~BCOF. The bottom image was with my adjusted/preferred RDRV~BCUT settings and adjusting Warm RDOF~BCOF accordingly to hopefully, at least somewhat closely "match" the same results of the factory warm offset settings+factory RDRV~BCUT settings -- Assuming that +1 or -1 for an offset value(31 having no effect) RDOF~BDOF is the same "effect" if you are using one of the offsets(warm or cool user menu settings) as +1 or -1 is for RDRV~BCUT(If you are using "neutral" user menu settings), which may not be entirely correct, although I still believe it's at least very, very "close" to a correct assumption ...


So, The images you saw are not the greyscale settings I actually use for viewing programming.



> Quote:
> It would indicate that you need to add considerable blue and maybe remove a little green in the _CUT settings, and reverse-adjust the _DRV just a bit to keep the white point the same.



That's pretty close to what I did months ago. Rasied BCUT by 4 values, lowered GCUT by one value from what you see in those images(more or less) Of course, actually "doing it" and finding what I "wanted" wasn't quite as "simple" as that ...


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Top picture has a little more red in the low IRE.
> 
> Bottom picture has a slightly lower gamma curve.



Thanks for looking at those. The thing is, I have no idea --- even with the camera set with the same "manual" settings for each exposure ---, if the "exact" "EXACT" "greyscale" that resulted on screen for each pic was actually captured for EACH image once the shutter was opened -- Which is what I meant when I said I'm not sure if that method is 100% "accurate" ....


While they both look pretty much the same to my eyes, and therefore probably less "different" than if I were to change, say, ONLY BCUT by one or two values --- Just the fact that the camera captured that "dark area" at top of screen in one image due to the scanning frequencies the TV is using whereas it didn't in the other image tells me at least that is different from one exposure to the next ... So, Could any possible "artifacts of photography" cause the very slight different results you saw ? I don't know.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Jeff, you didn't say, but did you set the camera on manual color-balance? Most digital cameras are really competent at balancing out differing scene illumination to produce a satisfying image resembling what you perceived at the time. If you choose Daylight or Clouds or manually balance the camera for one screen, then the other screen will be properly compared. Otherwise the camera in Auto-CB mode could be cancelling the difference based on the lightest tones or whatever it uses. (My Canon digital camera and GL-2 video camera do this extremely well!)
> 
> 
> Second, looking at your image on my calibrated computer screen (perfect grayscale & CT of 6500K), I see that the darker tones are quite greenish-yellow. Is this the way it appears to your eyes? (I hope not.) It would indicate that you need to add considerable blue and maybe remove a little green in the _CUT settings, and reverse-adjust the _DRV just a bit to keep the white point the same. On the other hand, this greenishness could entirely be an artifact of your picture-taking situation, I can't tell.



Sorry for quoting the same post twice -- Oops! To respond to the above in a 2nd, different way(if that's OK) :


I did in fact last night take a third photo (with the same "manual" exposure settings on the camera as the other two) ...


Another screenshot of the greyscale steps attached below :


The third photo is of the greyscale settings I actually USE and is the image at TOP in file attached to this message -- That's "netural" color temp in user menu, using my adjustments to RDRV~BCUT, which are : 32-17-9-32-16-9 ..... Again, this is the greyscale setting I actually USE currently, and for quite some time -- I'm really mainly concerned about dim room/dark room viewing, as the lighting conditions from the ambient light coming through the windows in the daytime vary greatly not only by time of day, but also by season(different sun angle, different light from reflection off the leaves in summer vs. no leaves in winter/etc/etc) ... At some point however, perhaps I may try to work out a slightly different version with one of the offsets for "daytime" viewing ...


The bottom image in attached screenshot is of Factory default using WARM offset -- Factory "default" settings for RDRV~BCUT AND factory default for RDOF~BCOF for "warm offset" were used for this image. It's the Same Image as the TOP image in the last post, except I resized it to match the size of the image at top, as I had moved the camera a bit last night(update: As you can also see, I didn't quite have the camera "level" for the top photo, sorry!) before I had the idea to go ahead and take a shot while using the greyscale I'm actually using as well .. Note" I can of course take a much higher resolution image+use much less compression, however since I knew the forum only allows 640x480 max size for JPG images, figured these would be "good enough" for our purposes ....


Oh, also forgot to mention earlier -- I took the photos in a completely dark room(except the light from the TV).


----------



## Nitewatchman

Again, sorry for the multiple posts!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> They look greenish on my monitor too, though my monitor isn't calibrated.



Very interesting! I was expecting folks would probably see something quite a bit different once it got to their PC monitor -- Heck, it even surprised me that I am pretty much seeing the same thing on my PC monitor as I do on the XBR960's screen, given the greyscale settings on the set which I used for the photos .....


It does provide some motivation to :


#1) experiment a bit with taking some screenshots of the "greyscale" on other sets I have here, and compare those to the screenshots from the XBR960 ....


#2) Attempt to "tweak" things a bit for the photos - such as : use higher resolution for the shots/select better test patterns(and lower JPG compression ratio or the camera's "RAW" format), detirmine better exposure settings to use. If I do that, perhaps I can get more useful and "detailed" results for comparison's sake ....


Just something to add to the "list of fun stuff to do someday" on a "rainy weekend" ......


----------



## Foulacy

so after a week and a half of deliberation as to whether to enter the service menu on my own, I gave it a shot. I have a 30xs955. I bought an avia disc and read this thread for days on end! and btw I wrote EVERYTHING DOWN and entered it all into an excell sheet on the computer and I still got confused at times. So I got into the service menu and destroyed 2170D-1, 2170D-2 and 2170D-4 with ease! My TV had 20% overscan on all sides and i reduced this to ~3%. My VSIZ was on 51 I lowered this to 42. My HSIZ was on 50 and i lowered this to 36, I wonder why they were set this high from the factory? (or the showroom floor i shoudl say







). This was the greatest thing to ever happen to my tv! I also fixed some geometry problems using some of the pincushions and trapezoids. I found myself messing with VANG and LANG a lot trying to find a medium between the two but ended up going back to the factory settings but I spent at least 45min on these two items. The DPQ settings in 2170D-4 were of great help also since the edges of my TV were blurry. I used an inverse crosshatch pattern to see the bluriness (was really noticeable in this pattern) and fixed as much of the blur as I could.


Now, that was all fine and dandy but what on earth does convergence of vertical lines do (D-CONV)?! I thought it had to do with geometry (ie, RUMB = right upper middle bow, YBWL = y-bow lower) but none of the settings I tried did anything I could see AT ALL. is there a trick to it?


anyways, thank the Lord for these forums, now I can fiddle with my TV in a way I never thought imaginable, it's pretty fun


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Foulacy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now, that was all fine and dandy but what on earth does convergence of vertical lines do (D-CONV)?! I thought it had to do with geometry (ie, RUMB = right upper middle bow, YBWL = y-bow lower) but none of the settings I tried did anything I could see AT ALL. is there a trick to it?



The D-CONV parameters allow you to improve any mis-convergence visable along vertical lines -- such as, if you put up a cross hatch pattern and see blue or red lines "next" to the white cross hatch pattern lines .. If you aren't seeing any of those "extra" blue or red lines along vertical lines in cross hatch pattern, then there is no reason for you to adjust any of the D-CONV settings.


Search this thread for D-CONV, or some of the settings(such as RUMB) and you should be able to find posts with more specific info concerning which area of the screen each control impacts. There is also a nice little chart showing what each control does in section 2-3.4 of the Service Manual(pg. 36~37).


RUMB for example would allow you to adjust for a misconvergence in Right upper portion of screen on vertical lines, with the "bow" being adjustable for any Red or blue "extra" lines that may be present ... You'd want to make the Red+blue lines "disappear" and "combine" with the White line as much as possible ....


There are no dynamic convergence settings available in the SM for any visable vertical mis-convergence, which may be visable on horizontal lines in a cross hatch pattern.


Hope some of this above is useful!




> Quote:
> anyways, thank the Lord for these forums, now I can fiddle with my TV in a way I never thought imaginable, it's pretty fun



Excellent, and Amen


----------



## shugazer9

Iv got a big problem with my 36XS955. Iv noticed some pulsing in the picture for a while now, but a few days ago the picture expanded so a bit is lost on all sides. Is this something that can be fixed in the service menu, and if so, what would the procedure be? Id really appreciate some advice. Rick.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The third photo is of the greyscale settings I actually USE and is the image at TOP in file attached to this message



I am reposting your last image with a modification, which helps to show any errant coloration in the bars: I completely desaturated the bottom half of both screen photos. For the top image, the darker bars still have some coloration (i.e. the camera image has coloration). An assessment in Photoshop shows plus red and minus blue, relative to green, and the amounts are in about a 1:2 ratio, depending on the bar measured.


If you see what the photo shows, then you might try a _CUT correction of -1 red and +2 blue, and see if there is an improvement.


I'm not quite sure I trust a digital-camera photo of the screen yet, and my experience with several digital cameras is that "manual" operation guarantees total control over shutter, aperture, and internal gain (DIN boost). But autofocus and white balance are still automatic, unless they are explicitly set to be different. I'm suspicious of the perfect white represented in your photos; it would seem quite a coincidence if your camera's fixed white balance exactly matched your TV screen.


What camera are you using? Usually one can choose among a few fixed white balances (cloudy, sunlight, incandescent, etc.), auto (on-the-fly), and custom/manual, where you aim the camera at a known gray target, and press a button, capturing a balance for that light. It stays the same until you press the button again.


Some cameras have the ability to capture images in a RAW format, i.e. "digital negative." The camera makes no adjustments to the image whatever and sets only shutter, focus, and aperture. Then in Photoshop, or a similar program, you can make your own corrections, including white balance. If the camera's calibration isn't too far off, it will also report the color temperature of the detected illuminant, or you can tweak a CT slider in the RAW viewer until a selected "white" appears neutral on-screen, and then read CT from the slider. I haven't tried this yet, as I am confident of the grayscale linearity and white point of my several screens at present. But it's a worthwhile experiment.


We are assuming that the camera's response is quite linear in color response at differing brightness levels. I hope that's not expecting too much! I would eventually want to test this assumption against a known-linear grayscale pattern, either reflective (a Kodak card would work) or emittive (a calibrated screen). Better yet, just aim the camera at a uniform gray target and set manual color balance for the target. Then set several different exposures that would produce dark thru light versions of the target. Compare on the computer.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shugazer9* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Iv got a big problem with my 36XS955. Iv noticed some pulsing in the picture for a while now, but a few days ago the picture expanded so a bit is lost on all sides. Is this something that can be fixed in the service menu, and if so, what would the procedure be? Id really appreciate some advice.



I'm willing to bet it can't be adjusted away. If the picture is pulsing or twitching, and it didn't used to, an intermittent problem has developed. That's not an adjustment issue.


One likely thing that can affect the overall size of the picture (i.e. growth in all directions, not just vertical or horizintal) is a decrease in the high-voltage supply -- the 34.5kV beam-acceleration voltage. If a component is failing in a way that lowers this voltage, the picture would bloat in overall size and get slightly dimmer. Focus may change, too.


Time to get an assessment by a service tech who knows these sets. It's likely you could describe this verbally at a shop or show a tech a video of the problem.


----------



## shugazer9

Thanks for the reply, KenTech. Yeah, I think it's probably a power supply issue, God knows how much that would be to fix. (I knew I should have gotten the extended warranty!) One other odd thing has happened- the screen button is not fuunctioning. When i press screen it displays full mode, but i cant access any other mode.


----------



## Foulacy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The D-CONV parameters allow you to improve any mis-convergence visable along vertical lines -- such as, if you put up a cross hatch pattern and see blue or red lines "next" to the white cross hatch pattern lines .. If you aren't seeing any of those "extra" blue or red lines along vertical lines in cross hatch pattern, then there is no reason for you to adjust any of the D-CONV settings.
> 
> 
> Search this thread for D-CONV, or some of the settings(such as RUMB) and you should be able to find posts with more specific info concerning which area of the screen each control impacts. There is also a nice little chart showing what each control does in section 2-3.4 of the Service Manual(pg. 36~37).
> 
> 
> RUMB for example would allow you to adjust for a misconvergence in Right upper portion of screen on vertical lines, with the "bow" being adjustable for any Red or blue "extra" lines that may be present ... You'd want to make the Red+blue lines "disappear" and "combine" with the White line as much as possible ....
> 
> 
> There are no dynamic convergence settings available in the SM for any visable vertical mis-convergence, which may be visable on horizontal lines in a cross hatch pattern.
> 
> 
> Hope some of this above is useful!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent, and Amen



oh excellent. I will delve into the D-Conv tonight and check it out, I do believe the upper left hand corner of my screen has a convergence problem like you described. thanks


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I completely desaturated the bottom half of both screen photos.



You're way ahead of me Ken! What an excellent idea !



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the darker bars still have some coloration (i.e. the camera image has coloration).



It is the best I've been able to come up with so far, although I don't think it is quite "perfect" yet, even if the camera shot doesn't quite match the screen ....



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> An assessment in Photoshop shows plus red and minus blue, relative to green, and the amounts are in about a 1:2 ratio, depending on the bar measured.



I do "see" the slight "Plus Red" on the TV screen, I'm not quite sure about the minus Blue, I haven't noticed that, In fact, if anything I thought it might be just a tad +blue.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you see what the photo shows, then you might try a _CUT correction of -1 red and +2 blue, and see if there is an improvement.



It's *seems*pretty close to the same, I haven't had the time yet to stew on or attempt to "quantify" what any small diferences might be(which might be difficult since I don't have a calibrated PC monitor to use).


Anyhow, I'll have to try that(hopefully tonight), and see what comes of it, as I haven't tried that with -1 red. Previous experience seems to suggest changing only BCUT +1 or +2 might start puting things a little too much on the "blue" or "cool" side .....



> Quote:
> I'm not quite sure I trust a digital-camera photo of the screen yet



Oh, I don't either ... I am however surprised at just how close it seems to be "working" -- even although -- as the below indicates I really didn't set up the exposures for "best" results" --


Not only because of what I see on my TV screen vs what I see on a PC monitor(if there are any small differences there, again I haven't quanitifed them yet as the PC+TV are in seperate rooms), but also, in a "general way" given what everyone on the thread who has commented on it has seen ...



> Quote:
> , and my experience with several digital cameras is that "manual" operation guarantees total control over shutter, aperture, and internal gain (DIN boost). But autofocus and white balance are still automatic, unless they are explicitly set to be different. I'm suspicious of the perfect white represented in your photos; it would seem quite a coincidence if your camera's fixed white balance exactly matched your TV screen.



I did let the camera "autofocus", as if I used manual focus, my focus setting may have been lost when the camera automatically powered down If I didn't get to the next exposure "quickly enough".



> Quote:
> What camera are you using? Usually one can choose among a few fixed white balances (cloudy, sunlight, incandescent, etc.), auto (on-the-fly), and custom/manual, where you aim the camera at a known gray target, and press a button, capturing a balance for that light. It stays the same until you press the button again.



This is a Canon PowerShot G1.


NOTE that also, the camera does have a "Black and white" mode, however you can't use it and manually adjust the exposure(except for manual focus), and, If I'm thinking about this right, we couldn't use it to photo a TV's greyscale and see the "color contamination issues ....



Anyhow --- A bit of a "correction" to an earlier post --- I did "erronously" leave the Camera's white balance settings on "auto"(white balance settings are detirmined by the camera) for all the photos I've posted. I had remembered the white balance settings incorrectly, as I thought I'd remembered I'd read they were "static" for "manual" mode, well I remembered wrong .... Here are the available white balance settings I can select :


Auto, Daylight, Cloudy, Tungsten lighting, Flouresent lighting, Flash and

Custom - The latter just as you say for "setting a custom value with a white sheet of paper, etc, to obtain the optimal white balance for the conditions ...."


-------------------------------------------------



> Quote:
> Some cameras have the ability to capture images in a RAW format, i.e. "digital negative." The camera makes no adjustments to the image whatever and sets only shutter, focus, and aperture. Then in Photoshop, or a similar program, you can make your own corrections, including white balance. If the camera's calibration isn't too far off, it will also report the color temperature of the detected illuminant, or you can tweak a CT slider in the RAW viewer until a selected "white" appears neutral on-screen, and then read CT from the slider.



Yes, this camera does a "RAW format", back when I was using the camera more often, I used "RAW" images with photo editing software quite often, although I generally worked more with the TIF's I created after transfer from the camera.


And, I should be able to accomplish all those tasks -- It might be a while, but, when I get a chance I will do some further "experiments" and will post what I find.



> Quote:
> We are assuming that the camera's response is quite linear in color response at differing brightness levels.



I'm really not assuming all that much so far, Ken ... Really, I have been surprised the images I've taken so far of the greyscale as it appears on screen are seemingly at least somewhat close to what they are on the set! Obviously, even with the camera's "auto white balance", you can clearly see the difference between the Set default's "warm" offset, and my current preferred "neutral" settings, which are (more or less per the "offset discussion), BCUT +4, and GCUT -1 from the factory "warm" setting .....



> Quote:
> Better yet, just aim the camera at a uniform gray target and set manual color balance for the target. Then set several different exposures that would produce dark thru light versions of the target. Compare on the computer.



Yes, that seems like a good idea ..... Probably end up trying this as well as working with the RAW format+Photoshop and/or PSP ....


As I said, however -- It might be a while before you hear back from me on this! Many projects going on here currently, I can't quite "pause" many of them


----------



## ludeboy12

damn just my luck. so over the last month or so my HD channels have been like dying out. everything has become extrememly oversaturated and bleeding and what not. So i took the time tonight to read up on the service codes and i decided to go through and change pretty much all of the in hope to get everthing back to normal.


well in the end all looked very good again finally until i saved and turned off the tv. Now the picture still looks great but for the life of me a cant figure out how to fix my cable box guide. Its all bowed and distored and i've tryed like every setting and i just cant get it back to normal.


I even tried (8) - (enter) in hope to restore defaults to fix it and that didnt work either.


anyways if anyone has a complete list of service codes specifically for the KV32HS500 that would be so i could put them back the way they should be.


or if someone knows which codes might work best for this so i can get this fixed that would be great too.


thanx


----------



## Cole5

I posted this question in a new thread but didn't get much of a response so I'll try here. My friend has a 40" XBR (not sure of exact model #) that seems to have gone out of focus. Can someone direct me to a post that discusses how to fix this if it's been covered before or provide some new info regarding this focus problem? Any help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cole5* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I posted this question in a new thread but didn't get much of a response so I'll try here. My friend has a 40" XBR (not sure of exact model #) that seems to have gone out of focus. Can someone direct me to a post that discusses how to fix this if it's been covered before or provide some new info regarding this focus problem? Any help is greatly appreciated.



Use the function "Search this thread". A search on "focus" will give you loads of reading material.


----------



## fred33

Anyone wanna buy a tv?


34 XBR960


----------



## POWERFUL

Not to bug you fred, but this is the wrong forum for that. Anyway PM me as I need to replace mine.


----------



## mku917

Just wanted to ask you guys what you think about getting an XBR960 calibrated. Specifically wanted to ask, how do you know if the guy that is calibrating it is actually doing a good job? Is it possible to get a poor calibration? because people say that you need to get it "properly calibrated". If the person that is doing the calibration is ISF certified is that good enough or could an ISF certified tech do a poor job? I know that you'll probably say read through the forums to find my answer but I just don't have the time. Also, I saw in "Widescreen Review" magazine in the front of the magazine where they have a protocol for the ideal setup or home theater. They recommend a kelvin temperature calibration. Can the ISF techs do this? I'm just worried that I won't get a perfect calibration or near perfect. Any info would be greatly apreciated.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mku917* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just wanted to ask you guys what you think about getting an XBR960 calibrated. Specifically wanted to ask, how do you know if the guy that is calibrating it is actually doing a good job? Is it possible to get a poor calibration? because people say that you need to get it "properly calibrated". If the person that is doing the calibration is ISF certified is that good enough or could an ISF certified tech do a poor job? I know that you'll probably say read through the forums to find my answer but I just don't have the time. Also, I saw in "Widescreen Review" magazine in the front of the magazine where they have a protocol for the ideal setup or home theater. They recommend a kelvin temperature calibration. Can the ISF techs do this? I'm just worried that I won't get a perfect calibration or near perfect. Any info would be greatly apreciated.



Interview your calibrator, ask questions.


----------



## fred33

Yeah, I know its the wrong forum. Thats why its only a few lines











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *POWERFUL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not to bug you fred, but this is the wrong forum for that. Anyway PM me as I need to replace mine.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mku917* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just wanted to ask you guys what you think about getting an XBR960 calibrated.



This is the wrong forum for this question. Try the Display Calibration forum, right next door:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...ysprune=&f=139


----------



## Nitewatchman

Quote:

Originally Posted by *KenTech*
We are assuming that the camera's response is quite linear in color response at differing brightness levels. I hope that's not expecting too much!
I performed some experiments, and discovered my camera" "response" apparently isn't quite "linear" enough to provide an accurate representation of a greyscale test pattern(IRE steps/etc) on the screen with one exposure. I believe the screenshot attached to this message as "powershotg1whitebalancelinearity.jpg", along with the description below should demonstrate this.


All 4 greyscale "slices" in attached image are all taken from the same "exposure" but processed differently via software as noted below :


Top - Greyscale (colors completely desaturated)


2nd Down - Custom white balance, "as shot" by the camera -- to calibrate Camera white balance, I used a sheet of roll paper of the type once used in teletype machines sitting on the ground in direct mid-day sunlight.


3rd Down - Camera's "daylight" white balance setting, set using Camera's "RAW" viewer/twain driver.


Bottom - Camera's "auto" white balance setting, set using Camera's RAW format viewer/twain driver.


----------------------------------------------------------------


DO note that the attached graphic is NOT meant to represent what the greyscale actually "looks like" on my screen. Although, the "auto-white balance" slice overall, and the darker IRE bars in the 2nd "slice' downmiddle are closest to what is "on screen" given the RDRV~BCUT, and other various related settings(white level/black levels/etc) used. To be as complete as is reasonably possible, for this image I was using : RDRV~BCUT= 32-17-9-31-16-11 .


------------------------------------------------------


The file attached as "exposureinfo.txt" contains detailed info on the camera exposure settings as saved with Camera's RAW format, as well as info on the TV's user menu sliders used. Note that "custom" white balance as reported in the file is only relevant for the 2nd slice from top as described above(and all slices in file attached to "part II post below). I also changed the file number/serial number to "various" since the file info pertains to 1 exposure described above(for powershotg1whitebalanceliearity.jpg), and for several exposures for Offsetcomparison.jpg, as described andattahced in the next post (part II). Suppose I should have changed the "time" as well to be more accurate for all the shots as well .. Oh well ... You get the idea ....


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Thoughts:


In such cases when one cannot easily "move" their PC monitor(assuming a relatively close to 6500K "setting" on the PC monitor) to the same room as the TV :


I do believe it may be possible in some cases to use a digital camera screenshot of the TV screen(or at least part of it/part of a greyscale step pattern), along with a PC monitor with a 6500K color temp setting as a somewhat "seat of pants" tool in order to help one "see" or spot greyscale linearity issues, and perhaps aid in adjustment. But, I think one has to be very careful about drawing any "direct" conclusions from the digital camera screenshots.


At least in my case it seemed to help in this regard - Mainly, it helped me to "see" that something still wasn't quite right with my prior adjustments(mostly "by eye" only) although it did not necessarily show a perfect representation of what I needed to do, adjustment wise.


So, noticing that greyscale seems(from what I can tell) both close to 6500K(given the monitor's 6500K Color Temp setting), AND MOSTLY Linear on one CRT PC monitor I use - I decided to move the PC monitor(and PC), temporarily to the room with the TV so I could use it as a optical comparator of sorts to assist in adjusting the greyscale on the TV.


I also made use of another CRT PC monitor as a 2nd reference for not only the TV greyscale, but also to "sort of" check the other monitor. I assume since the greyscale is extremely similar with each monitor's 6500K setting for 2 completely different monitors from different manufactuers, and seems to match what my "idea" of 6500K is as well as seeminly matching the white of mid-day scattered "puffy" clouds lit directly by the sun, one might assume both monitors are probably both fairly "close" to 6500K, yes?


For completeness, Here's what most closely matches the PC monitor(with 6500K setting) via optical comparision. Note that I also endeavored to set Black/white levels+"gamma" as closely as possible on the PC monitor(s) to match the TV's settings, I used various greyscale patterns via Memory stick/DVD/etc :


RDRV~BCUT - 32-19-7-24-16-7 - Note: May need a bit of improvement "linearity" wise, concerning some slight yellowish "stuff" going on at certian brightness levels.


Either of the below may make for slightly "better", more "linear" greyscale - I haven't decided yet which of the three settings is best :


RDRV~BCUT - 32-19-6-23-17-9 -- Note: This may be VERY slightly +blue, and may very slightly(very very slightly) change the higher IRE's to the "cooler" side) however at this point I think the linearity is the best on this one - looks very neutral grey throughout brightness range ) :


RDRV~BCUT = 32-19-7-23-17-7 : Note: Linearity seems to be better with this one, but at this point, I believe its slightly +green ....
 

 

exposuresettingsinfo.txt 0.8798828125k . file


----------



## Nitewatchman

Attached to this message as "offsetcomparison.Jpg" are greyscale slices from 3 different digital camera pics, each "exposure" was captured with digital camera using the exposure settings as detailed in the file "expsoureinfo.txt" as attached to last post(part I). The same static "custom" white balance for the camera was used for all 3 "exposures", which I believe will offer a "correction" of sorts to the screenshots I previously posted in Post #1661 . Those previously posted images being images captured using the camera's "auto" white balance, a variable which might have caused some slight, unintended "differences" which I believe do not actually show up on the TV screen.


The custom white balance I set the camera to use for the images attached to this post was from when I was experimenting with using different "sources" for setting a custom white balance. If I recall correctly, for these images I believe I had it set rather arbitrarily from a mostly white screen from a LCD PC monitor, although it's really not relevant to my purposes here other than pertaining to, #1). the camera's white balance being set the same(static) for all 3 images, and #2). all other exposure settings for the camera being set exactly the same for each captured image, #3). All TV settings set the same except as noted below concerning 2170P-1 Greyscale settings.


So --- In no way, shape or form are these images to be considered indicative of what the greyscale "looks like" ON my TV screen, nor are they meant to be. As was my original purpose in Post #1661 , Instead, these screenshots are only meant to support my belief that the same greyscale results on the TV given the 3 "different" settings as described below - or to put it another way, my "belief" that on my set at least, +1/-1 DRV/CUT is the same "scale" as +1/-1 DOF/COF for warm/cool offsetsoffsets. :


Description of Greyscale slices in attached image :


Top - Digital camera "exposure" taken while using the following factory default 2170P-1 settings, with "warm" color temp selected from user menu :


RDRV~BCUT - 32-22-24-32-21-17


Warm Offset :


RDOF~BCOF : 31-26-16-31-27-19

SBOF = 7

DCOL = 0


----------------------------------



Middle - Digital camera "exposure" taken while using the following 2170P1 SM settings, with "Neutral" Color Temp selected from User menu:


RDRV~BCUT = 32-17-9-32-17-5


------------------------------------------------------------------


Bottom - Digital camera "exposure" taken while using the following 2170P1 SM settings, with "Warm" Color Temp selected from User menu:


RDRV~BCUT = 32-17-9-32-16-9


Warm Offset :


RDOF~BCOF = 31-31-31-31-32-27

SBOF=7

DCOL=0


---------------------------------------------


So, I still believe the SAME greyscale results on TV screen from any three of the above described settings as would be the case with "neutral" color temp setting selected from user menu while using RDRV~BCUT=32-17-9-32-17-5(middle example). Or, at least it's the same within my ability to "see" or detect any differences, if there are any. Hopefully, this time the greyscale "slices" in the posted images will better support this "belief" than was the case with my previously posted images with the camera doing auto white balance, although I still wouldn't be surprised if there were some very, very slight differences due to small differences in how the exposure turned out -- such as, for example, due to possible differences in luminance that might have resulted due to the scanning frequencies of the TV when the camera shutter was opened for each exposure(hope that makes sense!). I also have higher resolution seperate images(Tif/Camera's RAW format or JPEG's) for each pic if further, more "detailed" is required ....


Note that another factor that seems to support this "belief" : With BCUT=5 for example -- If I use warm offset, and lower BCOF lower than "26", there seems to be no effect/change on screen for any value lower than BCOF=26. which makes sense if each +1 or -1 offset value is "equal" to +1 or -1 DRV or CUT value, rather than say, .75 RDOF~BCOF vs 1 for RDRV~BCUT ....


----------



## jjt667

I just purchased a sony kd 32fs170 and the blacks are to dark. Night scenes, black clothing and any black objects have no detail.


I have tried adjusting picture and brightness to higher settings but this has no real effect.


How can I fix this problem? I do not know how to access the service menu nor what adjustments should be made, any help would be appreciated or I will have to take the tv back.


Thanks for your time,


John


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In no way, shape or form are these images to be considered indicative of what the greyscale "looks like" ON my TV screen, nor are they meant to be. As was my original purpose in Post #1661 , Instead, these screenshots are only meant to support my belief that the same greyscale results on the TV given the 3 "different" settings as described below - or to put it another way, my "belief" that on my set at least, +1/-1 DRV/CUT is the same "scale" as +1/-1 DOF/COF for warm/cool offsetsoffsets.



My experiments confirm this, too, and so I have assumed that one notch change in the Cool/Warm offset parameters RDOF~BCOF = one notch in the base parameters RDRV~BCUT. You are using the camera as a comparator, which seems valid to me as long as the camera isn't making any color adjustments on its own.


I am coming to believe that my own Canon G2 is (1) NOT an accurate color-temp (CT) meter (e.g. taking a RAW image, and reading the color temp slider in Photoshop after balancing the color-patch in question to perfect gray). Nor is it (2) linear in grayscale for different exposures -- at least not enough for calibration purposes. On this latter issue, I have yet to run a detailed test, but that's my impression so far.


I have to say: There is no question in my mind that the most difficult task is that of balancing the grayscale (i.e. _DRV vs _CUT settings), as the eye is so accommodating that errors can look mighty fine! I found that, when looking at b/w photographic or movie images onscreen (Color slider set to Min=OFF), I was really happy with slightly cool or magenta shadows for aesthetic reasons, fer Pete's sake! Gray patches were much better for testing, as I couldn't relate to the content. Skipping among the various percent-white patches on the DVE disk is also useful, as you can make a color judgement before the eye has a chance to adapt. The four-patch grayscale-plus-pluge bars pattern is good, too.


I think there is a bigger issue; I'll explain in personal terms: In the context of normal evening TV programming and with ambient lighting set low enough so it doesn't affect the eye's color-adaptation, my eye has a fairly critical and consistent perception of real white. Blown highlights, white text and graphics, cartoon eyeballs -- you name it -- are all perceived consistently and are easily perceived as "cool" or neutral or "pinkish" or "warm."


In my living room in the evening, after watching the screen for a while, I simply want digital/analog white as broadcast and recorded on DVD to appear neutral white. If that is true, all else follows naturally -- bad video color, subtle white variations, a film director's color-balance variations, and truly gorgeous natural video. I know that the CT is 6000-7000K, but I don't know what it is exactly. And I don't care. If a precision 6500K "expert" calibration by one Joe Shmoe would result in my set, under those conditions, showing broadcast or recorded 100% white as _anything_ but perceived white, that calibration would be simply wrong. _There is no rational argument that video-white should be calibrated so as to appear anything but white._ (What would be valuable, however, is the linear grayscale that would result. Then I would tweak the overall CT.)


The logic is simple. The world as represented in video is encoded using a specific signal level as 100% or saturated white, representing an intended true white. How that is assigned is up to the production company, but I receive it as broadcast or recorded as a specific electrical representation. This 100% white representation must be displayed on my screen as perceived white. I don't know how this varies from person to person (assuming uncrippled color vision), but who else must be satisfied, here? Some external authority? I don't think so!


So, over time, and having made a good attempt to get it right initially, my procedure has been thus: After watching my TV under normal evening circumstances, I ask "How are the whites? Hmmm. Maybe slightly and consistenly yellow." So I drop into service mode, add 1 click of BDRV and BCUT, write the settings, and go back to watching the TV. After these minor tweaks over a few days or weeks, I get a screen that makes me think "Wow, that's beautiful!" when I sit down to watch. And that's what matters! (I do write down and date the changes each time, too.)


It follows from the above that I am really curious if one notch change in _CUT tracks one notch in _DRV. That is, if I have a perfect correspondence among the various grays but their CT is off, can I make equal adjustments to _DRV and _CUT and maintain that precious linearity. There's no particular reason to assume this, although I have done so as a first approximation,


I may use my digital camera as a comparator to see if this is the case. So far I haven't gotten around to it.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjt667* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just purchased a sony kd 32fs170 and the blacks are to dark. Night scenes, black clothing and any black objects have no detail. I have tried adjusting picture and brightness to higher settings but this has no real effect.



Do you mean that, if you increase the Brightness slider setting, the "blacks" do not turn grayish and begin to glow? If you can't do this, you have a defective set!


The certain way to test for this is to use one of the excellent test DVDs, AVIA or Digital Video Essentials. (Requires a DVD player, of course.) This would prove the point without your having to rely on some broadcast video images that may really NOT have any black detail.


But if you can't bring the black level up to a dim gray with the Brightness control, something must be wrong with the set. (The Picture control won't affect this.)


----------



## jjt667

Kentech,


I realized that although the info from your postings were not about my tv, the sony codes are universal. Although my tv doesn't have all the service codes talked about, my tv does have most, so I adjusted those. I have also bought a service manual for last years model the FS130 (basically exactly the same set) so I now have that to reference.


I am amazed it is much better, the picture is breathtaking and I can see fabric and dark scenes excellent.


The picture is now excellent, and wonder what else should I do. Some stations below channel 20 have a little snow or static in them but I attribute that signal since all other channels and signals are great. Are these the best settings, are there any other settings I can and should adjust to maximize performance?


Although you recommended SBRT 31-33 I found that level too low and could not see dark objects or details in black objects. Can I lower SBRT and adust something else (my tv does not have an SBOF adjustment)?


Is my tv defective because I have to set the SBRT to 54 (max setting of 63)?


Here's what I changed these are my current settings old setting in ().


Under VP1:


SBRT 53 (12)


RDRV 42 (84)

GDRV 28 (81)

BDRV 25 (79)

RCUT 31 (100)

GCUT 18 (51)

BCUT 14 (42)


Under Pallete:


VGMA 2 (1)


Under VP2:


GAMM 2 (1)

BDOF-BCOC 31


and then adjusted for warm and cool setting


Warm


GDOF 31

BDOF 29

GCOF 31

BCOF 29


Cool


GDOF 31

BDOF 33

GCOF 31

BCOF 33


then I repeated the preceding in all inputs (Video1, 2, etc.) and modes (pro, normal, movies) so when I switch I can have close to the same picture.


I plan to buy the Avia disc Home theater setup, to see if that can improve performance any further.


Thanks Kentech for your dedication and excellent usefull info.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> I have to say: There is no question in my mind that the most difficult task is that of balancing the grayscale (i.e. _DRV vs _CUT settings), as the eye is so accommodating that errors can look mighty fine!



Funny that you mention this, as I have recently found the same problem. I recently had to redo my greyscale because I discovered the GAMB was jacked up to 3 from zero without me knowing it







. I don't know how this happened, but it did. While trying to redo the greyscale and finding pure white, I went back and forth from too much red to too much green, etc., and noticed that the eyes quickly adjust to perceive white when it is still color tainted. All I can do is go back and forth between too much saturation of blue, green, and red and try to find a compromise, but it's really difficult since the eyes adjust so quickly. One minute I think I'm looking at near pure white, then try to check it by oversaturating one color and then quickly returning back to the previous settings, but it looks different than it did before!


It's too bad colorimeters are so expensive as they would make the whole process so much easier. Are there any consumer grade colorimeters under $500 that are decent?


----------



## todd95008




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's too bad colorimeters are so expensive as they would make the whole process so much easier. Are there any consumer grade colorimeters under $500 that are decent?



I use the SpyderTV with the support mode (reads x,y,Y data).

You can also use raders spreadsheet or the new calman software.

See the calibration thread for details...


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> All I can do is go back and forth between too much saturation of blue, green, and red and try to find a compromise, but it's really difficult since the eyes adjust so quickly. One minute I think I'm looking at near pure white, then try to check it by oversaturating one color and then quickly returning back to the previous settings, but it looks different than it did before!



Yep! Unless you practice this, simply looking at a continuous-tone b/w picture (Color=Min) turns out to be a poor test, no matter what I have said before. I now much prefer something like the 4-patch gray plus pluge on DVE. The adjacent gray patches are different enough, and white and dark gray are close enough, that you can much more easily see whether, say, the dark gray is bluer than the white or lightest gray. The dim pluge bars represent a deep "black" if you up the Brightness a little, so you can unify the whole pattern. Then you can check your work by skipping thru channels with Color=Min to see if you're reasonably on-target.


It takes a couple of go-arounds to get it right: approximate a good color temp for white, then balance grays, then watch normal programming and touch up the white (as described a couple of posts above), check the grays, etc. Don't rush it or you'll get frustrated. No matter how badly I have screwed up what were actually decent settings, in serch of "perfection," I have been able to return to near-perfect settings by referring to records of previous settings and touching up the whites while watching real program material.


Note that this does not work unless the TV is dominating your vision and your eyes have not become dark-adapted! An evening's dim ambient light and a suitably bright screen are perfect, not a dark room (hopeless!) or a bright afternoon when the light is colored by the green trees outside your windows (TV looks pink) or the blue sky above (TV looks orangish).


> Quote:
> It's too bad colorimeters are so expensive as they would make the whole process so much easier. Are there any consumer grade colorimeters under $500 that are decent?



Maybe a posh unit would make it easier. Inexpensive units tend to have light vs dark errors, and so they would mislead you on grayscale calibration. I have two such units from different manufacturers, designed for computer screens. Both get me close to 6500K if I request that, but then I have to remove a greenish cast manually by looking out the window at bright clouds (no glass) while tuning the color. Then I have a perfect, white screen, important for Photoshop digital-photo tinkering. Doesn't work on my TV, but I can calibrate a spare CRT-iMac computer, and have it nearby as a reference in the living room.


This is not a one-time process! You will want to re-visit the grayscale and white calibration as the set ages (or as you get smarter). I highly recommend learning how to do it, how to spot light/dark-gray color discrepancies, and to trust your eye while watching programming in a properly dim room. This empowers you, the owner of the set, and you can take pride in its, ahem, perfection! (See DVE or AVIA for appropriate ambient-lighting rerferences.)


----------



## KenTech

*TRIED-AND-TRUE SELF-REFERENCING GRAYSCALE CALIBRATION*


There is a technique, easy to implement on a computer because of its fine scan lines, that will result in a _perfect_ grayscale linearity. I have experimented with it on my TV using the Memory Stick image-viewing feature and maximum-quality jpeg encoding.


Using a computer and whatever graphics-program skills you have, make up a test pattern of several blocks against a black background. These blocks should be made up of horizontal _white_ lines in various spacings, including zero-spacing (pure white). E.g. all lines white (solid white), every other line, every third line, every fourth line, etc. If these blocks are viewed at a distance with blurred vision, the lines appear to blend into a nearly continuous tone, and the blocks appear to be various shades of gray. But since they are made up of white lines against black, the "color" of each "gray" exactly matches the white. (Warning: Vertical lines or dots will interact with the color-phosphor pattern on the CRT, producing false colors. Use horizintal lines, or long dashes if you must.)


Now position several continuous-tone gray blocks next to the ones made up of white lines. Their gray percentage should _match_ the _perceived_ gray of the lined blocks when blurred by the eye. Bottom line: These blocks' colors are determined by the grayscale accuracy of the display, and the lined blocks are an adjacent perfect reference, linked only to white.


Now one simply adjusts the grayscale calibration until there is no perceivable color differences between the continuous-tone blocks and the adjacent blocks made up of white lines.


On my 36XS955, the MS display is exactly 1440 X 1080i, and so an every-other-line pattern flickers at 30Hz -- very distracting, but you can sorta ignore it. Wider spacings are hard to blur, and you have to walk a ways back from the TV to get adequate blurring from your eyes. (The patters are much coarser than on a computer.) Trying this via still-patterns on a DVD is even more difficult. But I wanted to present the basic idea; maybe creative readers will come up with some new methods that are practical for a TV.


If you can make up a pattern like this, it is a secure and accurate indication of your grayscale linearity, no matter what color you have set for white. I will attempt to clean up my experimental pattern and post it.


UPDATE-1: Zip file has now been attached, native for 1440 X 1080. Extract parts of it or cut it down, as needed. The 50% patch is 2+2 alternating black and white, since 1+1 flickeres so badly.


UPDATE-2: Just tested the file on my 36XS955, and it works perfectly from a memory stick. (The thumbnail is screwed up; full display is fine.) The most useful patterns are those in the lower-right, particularly the next-to-darkest pair. Make sure that the background is pure black, with no background glow. Turn Color all the way to Min.


This pattern should display fine on a 16X9 set, since it's the 1:1 mapping of scan lines that's important, not the horizintal scaling. But I can't test this. Let me know if a 1920 X 1080 version is needed, and I'll make one up.

 

GSLinearityTest2.zip 15.140625k . file


----------



## MechanicalMan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjt667* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Although you recommended SBRT 31-33 I found that level too low and could not see dark objects or details in black objects.... Is my tv defective because I have to set the SBRT to 54 (max setting of 63)?



I doubt that recommendation applies to FS170s. And FWIW, I definitely think it's strange that you have SBRT at 54. I have it at 24 on my 27FS170.


----------



## jjt667

Quote:


"And FWIW, I definitely think it's strange that you have SBRT at 54. I have it at 24 on my 27FS170."


1.) what does FWIW mean?


2.) What should I do (is there something I can adjust), are my drv levels too low why is my set soo dark and have to turn up SBRT so high? (the current picute is great)


Thanks for your time MechanicalMan


----------



## MechanicalMan

fwiw = for what it's worth


I can't advise you. But I think I'd be a little nervous if I needed to put my SBRT so high. That doesn't seem normal. As you said, the default is 12. If your TV looks right at 54, it must have looked completely wrong at 12..? So without going into the service menu (which we aren't expected to do), you wouldn't have been able to get a satisfactory picture on your TV? I'd be afraid that something is wrong with the set. I wouldn't want GAMM at 3 on my set either, but that one is subjective. Still, the fact that you have SBRT at 54 and GAMM at 3 makes it sound like you are compensating for a problem. *shrug* Changing your DRV and CUT values won't help.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Once again I will say that I am saying only to use Vivid while gaming, at no other time do I use it. The image that Vivid provides with the right tweaks (and picture and brightness sliders at 31 clicks which is the middle) is unbelievable while gaming, it looks terrible for anything else though. I use pro mode for regular TV watching and Movie mode (tweaked) for DVDs, and Vivid for my PS2 and Xbox 360.



i was under the impression that vivid was bad for the tv, what are these "right" tweaks, and how can it make games look great but everything else crap, cause if you look at my "suggested thread" youd see that i am having black crush problems in pro... anything 480p and above, so that would be what, 1080i conversioned up?


----------



## MechanicalMan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i was under the impression that vivid was bad for the tv, what are these "right" tweaks...



AFAIK, the only thing that could be harmful about using Vivid (with the default settings) is the picture setting. On my Sony, Vivid had picture maxed, and Standard was almost as bad. Bolo said in his post that he has "picture... at 31 clicks which is the middle."


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is not a one-time process! You will want to re-visit the grayscale and white calibration as the set ages (or as you get smarter).



Given my set is used by everyone in the family and is generally on 12~15 hours a day, I wonder how often I should plan on revisiting greyscale(at least checking it to see if I can detirmine anything has changed), once I'm satisfied I have "good greyscale", currently?


I've pretty much decided regarding my current "greyscale revisiting" that I'm going to spend the time, "no matter what" and how long it takes to get it "exactly" how I want it, and I believe I'm very close to achieving that point, now ....


On previous occasions I was more interested in spending time with other improvements via SM such as image processing/etc, I had only been interested in getting the greyscale a little more "in the ballpark" vs. the factory supplied settings. But, as time went on, I also made some seemingly small improvements to those settings when I noticed something about the greyscale that particularly "bothered me".


Hence, since I have occasionally made adjustments from time to time, it's difficult to get any sort of an idea concerning how often I may want to "revisit" the greyscale settings, or whether or not anything has "changed" so far, after a year of useage ...


Perhaps, in the future I should plan to look at greyscale/test patterns at least once a year or so?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is a technique, easy to implement on a computer because of its fine scan lines, that will result in a _perfect_ grayscale linearity. .....
> 
> Now one simply adjusts the grayscale calibration until there is no perceivable color differences between the continuous-tone blocks and the adjacent blocks made up of white lines.



Excellent! This turns out to be very useful for me. Looked at this a little last night using your attached pattern and this does seem to work very well!



> Quote:
> You have to walk a ways back from the TV to get adequate blurring from your eyes.



What seems to work well for me is looking at it with my glasses removed(I'm quite nearsighted --- beyond about 15" away, things are quite blurry without the glasses!) a little closer to the screen, and then doublechecking that with glasses on farther away .... about 10 feet is as far away as I can get without knocking out a wall, and 10 feet didn't quite seem far enough away at first to allow my brain to interpet what my eyes were seeing. I did notice it was probably a good idea for me to closely examine the pattern for very short periods, as it seemed quite a strain on the eyes - especially with my glasses off!


I didn't try it, but I wonder if lowering sharpness slider, adjusting the various EE related image processing SM settings, and/or defocusing with the focus pot on HV transformer may also be beneifical to achieve the necessary blurring if one doesn't "wear glasses", or can't quite move far enough from screen, so to speak?



> Quote:
> This pattern should display fine on a 16X9 set, since it's the 1:1 mapping of scan lines that's important, not the horizintal scaling. But I can't test this. Let me know if a 1920 X 1080 version is needed, and I'll make one up.



It works fine on KD34XBR960 at 1440x1080 --- However, I found a 1920x1080 version of it a little easier to work with/look at, given the patterns are a little larger horizontally. I didn't try it, but I wonder if one could utilize the viewers "zoom" feature as well?


All I did was resize your pattern to 1920x1080, which seemed to work fine. I compared it with the 1440x1080 pattern as you sent it(and worked with both images while making greyscale adjustments), and didn't see any differences except the "wider" version was easier to look at/work with. Oh, I also "resaved"(using "save as"/different filename) the file in Photoshop, including the thumbnail before moving it to a memory stick and then the thumbnail(including for the 1440x1080 version) then worked OK.


BTW, OT perhaps since it's not SM related .... Does the MS viewer not work with progressive JPEG encoding? I did notice last night it worked with the version of Photoshop(for PC, just an "LE" version) and it's "optimized" standard JPEG encoding.


I had ran into some problems(big question marks when the viewer couldn't recognize the files - the thumbnails+full images) when I created some JPEG files for looking at various greyscale patterns/grey fields/etc via MS several days ago. Rather than take the time to figure out why some of them weren't working, I "minimized" the time that would have been required to "get it to work" by doing several things at one time .... shortening file names/Making first letter of file names capitalized/removing any spaces/changing 8bit greyscale images to RGB(although of course without adding any "color"), making sure I saved thumbnail along with the file, and switching from progressive encoding to standard/etc, so I'm not sure which one of those "did the trick".


Prior to the last week, it had been quite some time since I'd transferred any images to MS to use with the set's MS viewer, and so I couldn't recall any "weirdness" with JPEG images I may have run into on earlier occasions.



> Quote:
> UPDATE-2: Just tested the file on my 36XS955, and it works perfectly from a memory stick. (The thumbnail is screwed up; full display is fine.) The most useful patterns are those in the lower-right, particularly the next-to-darkest pair. Make sure that the background is pure black, with no background glow. Turn Color all the way to Min.



The lower right/next-to-darkest pair -- being bottom right second pattern up from bottom, and the top right, 2nd pattern down from top seem to be the most useful for me at this point, although, even though, I also found all of the patterns useful in some way to see what was "going on".


Still have to spend some more time on this(I've included more info and thoughts concerning how this "relates" to previous greyscale experiements in my next post), but at this point it appears like on my set, and for my eyes, as I've suspected before with other experiments -- a bit of a slight greyscale linearity "compromise" may be in order. With use of this new technique/pattern, however, it seems it will end up involving less of a compromise than I've been able to achieve, so far - although, only recently has it been the case I've spent as much time+effort on "getting good greyscale" as it requires in my case without test equipment, or a "perfect" optical comaprator to use.


With the new pattern, It seems I can 'get' everything except the very bottom lower-right pattern to match perfectly, or almost so. While I can lower RCUT quite a bit and get the lower-right pattern to match, this causes problems elsewhere.


Either that(greyscale linearity "compromise" required), or perhaps there may be a bit of an issue with "my eyes". I have noticed, for instance with only the Red gun turned on via RGBS setting --- while looking at AVIA "color decoder" test, My left eye seems to see a very slightly different shade of red than my right eye.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Sorry for length of below comments, as some(or much) of it is probably more than anyone wanted to know - I do find it difficult in such cases to decide/detirmine which of my comments may be useful for others, and what comments are unnecessary. For example, the actual values for various settings aren't important for others' sets, and are only relevant in some cases+to some extent concerning how they "relate" to other values used on *my* set. So I simply endeavor to "write it down" as I "experienced" it, including at least with the details of seeming importantace for my "endeavors" ....


So, in case anyone is interested thought it might be useful at this point If I not only update my recent posts concerning my recent "greyscale" experiments, but perhaps I should also attempt to explain/summarize and report in hopefully mostly "plain english" my experience so far in attempts to get "good greyscale" on Sony TV, without necessarily going into all the relevant details :


While, in the past it has seemed apparent I can achieve very good greyscale linearity via examining all sorts of various test patterns ------ (for example, the Pluge+Grey pattern, grey fields, step patterns, the window patterns on DVE of varying brightness, using video black and looking for neutral greys with the brightness slider in the higher ranges/etc/etc) :


It's also been the case using those methods to attempt to improve greyscale linearity that I've seemingly(to my eyes at least) often ended up erring a little on the "cool" or +blue side, therefore ending up with a different overall white balance than I had intended. Or, a little less often, ended up with a nice "warmer" "linear" greyscale, but one that was intolerably yellowish/greenish throughout brightness range. Apparent to me not only with white text, but also often during programming(or white text in menu graphics such as my Dish Network receiver) when bright white backgrounds mostly fill the screen. Oddly enough, often not as apparent to me with test patterns, such as the QM "white" or "white+Blue"(the latter #5 or #6 if I redcall correctly) screens, or white fields from the calibration DVD's.


It probably bothers me a tad more if "white" looks more bluish-greyish(or +red and +blue) than if it is slightly yellowish, or slightly yellowish~reddish, although it's better to my eyes if it's a bit cool or, a bit +blue vs. "greenish", especially for B+W content.


Then, when I've went about attempting to correct for the "too cool" or "too blue", or less frequently "too warm" or "too yellowish", but with good greyscale linearity -- I've ended up "upsetting" the linearity somewhat, to some extent there is a bit of annoying reddish or yellowish contamination at certian brightness levels, perhaps especially at the low end(sometimes "upper middle" brightness, say 60~80 IRE with test patterns), or then erred the "opposite" way overall (too cool/too warm/etc). In other words, while it hasn't been difficult to "get in the ballpark" for what I want(and I also don't particularly care it that's 6500K, 6400K, or 6900K CT, although I suspect it's somewhere between 6400K and 6800K), it has been difficult to find the "sweet spot" that wasn't too cool, too warm, and with the best possible Linearity, without any(or at least as minimal as possible) color contamination at certian brightness levels. So, at this point, it Looks as if this new pattern will help greatly with this! Thanks Ken!


As Ken mentioned, granted, while it does not seem very difficult to set for pleasing "warm" whites-* without apparent color contamination ------ Getting a good "linear" greyscale throught the rest of the brightness range(say IRE 0~80) while not "messing up" my nice, warm whites seems much more difficult. Oddly enough, I seem to prefer white being perhaps just very, very slightly yellowish, although, with B+W programming, I'd rather it be a little cool or a bit +blue(probably moreso than the 5400K "look"), which definitely seems to be a "contridiction" of sorts ....


*- In addition to RDRV~BCUT, I think the "related" various White level settings are a factor here as well - In my case, white levels have to be set such that they do not give me that "burning your eyeballs out" feeling, and also can't be "too dim" in a dim room with appropriate ambient lightning - If I can't watch the TV in a Dim/Dark room for hours on end without my eyes becoming noticably fatigued, it's just not acceptable to me, and my eyes do seem rather sensitive in this regard -- Of course, OTOH, If it's "too dim", it's not good either, so,he white levels have to be just right for my eyes, it seems, for all input sources -- Just at the point where moving from a dark scene to a brightly lit scene is very close to what happens when you, say, leave a movie theatre on a sunny day.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Concerning The experiments I had been doing with the #1), digital cameras and #2). the PC monitors(with some somewhat "unknown" factors, such as their actual CT) as optical comparators --- Really, the main reason I was doing those experiments were to use those as additional "references" of sorts, or perhaps, more specifically, more "data points" in hopes they would help my "eyes" try to see a little more "closely" what was actually going on with the Sony TV's greyscale, in hopes it would allow me to adjust its greyscale to get closer to what I want to see -- As mentioned earlier -- I do believe those experiments were of use, in short, for lack of a better way to say it, at least in a "intuitive" way, and to help me get a better idea of whether slight adjustments erred "one way or another"(plus blue, plus red/plus green, too cool,too warm/etc) ...


Also An update on that concerning my previous posts -- the optical comparisions using the PC monitors seemingly turned out, in generaly to result in something a little "too warm", and/or on the "greenish or Yellowish/reddish or +red - **(see bottom of post for more details concerning some more detailed notes concerning the PC monitors+related hardware)


So, the next thing I did was to go through through to find the "best"(to my "eyes" and from a linearity standpoint) of the set of values for RDRV~BCUT from the experiment with the PC monitor(s) as optical comparator. The values I had listed in an earlier post from that experiment all turned out to be slightly "worse" than the first set of values I'd come up with using one particular PC monitor, and those "best" values I had came up with were :


RDRV~BCUT = 32-18-6-26-16-7


Then, from those values I worked on making improvements in linearity and getting rid of "yellowish/Greenish" appearance to whites which resulted from above values, and "best of" what I could come up with using the monitor as an optical comparator -- while at the same time being as careful as possible not to go +blue or "too cool". I had thought I'd gotten about "as close" as I could with the following values, and indeed, I've been living with the following values the past several days and have generally been very pleased, and believe it was an improvement(best greyscale I've seen on the set so far), and I believe it was worth the effort :


RDRV~BCUT = 32-17-9-24-17-8


So, after much examination, I thought I did a fairly good job of it to find a good "compromise" between CT and linearity concerning what my eyes "like to see", with those settings. White's were nice and white, and *almost" nothing looked "too cool", although it was apparent at times the greyscale linearity wasn't quite "perfect".


For instance, I did notice that when I had video black up using higher brightness slider(color slider at 0) settings, there was a bit of yellowish/greenish tint going on, especially noticable with brightness slider betwen about 47 and 55. OTOH, I *thought* at times the generally white text in user menu's had a slight "bluish" tint to it, and at times, it appeared a bit "reddish/pinkish" -- I pretty much chalked that up to something mentioned earlier by Ken+RWhetmore -- the "biological" white balance adjustment being "done" by eyes+brain --- I also noticed much the same thing(although either reddish/pinkish or slightly yellowish, never "bluish") with programming with quite a bit of white(but not a "full" white screen), or a menu display with mostly white background from my Dish network receiver ....


I believe I was also able to detirmine the following was "really happening" and was not something due to my "eyes" adjusting ---- This was, a bit of "yellowishness or pinkishness"(seemingly +red) mostly apparent in low~low middle brightness levels with various test patterns/grey fields --- So, I set up "cool" offset with RDOF~BCOF = 31-31-31-30-31-32 - And, this seemed to improve the linearity to being quite close to neutral grey throughout brightness range - but, also seemed to perhaps push things just a very tad too far to the "cool" side, including for higher brightness levels ... I hadn't gotten to the point of deciding whether or not that was really happening or if my eyes were just "adjusting", and to try to make other slight improvments, when I looked at the new test pattern ...


Then, last night, I looked at the new greyscale "linearity" pattern Ken provided in his last post, and came up with the following values :


RDRV~BCUT = 33-17-9-22-17-11


Except for a slight difference in perceived "color" for the darkest pair of boxes in the very bottom lower right - according to the pattern+matching the "color" between left+right sides of each pair --- this seems to provide very near perfect greyscale linearity, including with various other test patterns. When I was doing this last night, I *thought* it might also be pushing things a little too much on the "cool" or "blue" side, and, that may very well be the case, but looking at it today so far(albeit in daytime with too much light being reflected around), it appears like it *may* not be too cool. If it is, I'll just have to try adjusting for a "warmer" white+readjust for linearity accordingly -- although, I have a feeling that I won't be able to achieve much improvement while keeping good linearity and without ending up with things ending up a little "too warm" or "yellowish/reddish", I do believe it is going to allow for some improvement vs. what I've been able to do without this nice tool!


Gamma/Black level notes: I didn't check this(or look very closely at the changes in Gamma - also note I have GAMM=0/GAMR~GAMB=0 set up for all but one Pic mode, GAMM=1/GAMR~GAMB=3 for "movie" pic mode for a lower gamma) yet, but I expect It is possible I may need to lower SBRT to 28 from it's current value of 29, or lower brightness slider one click, or lower SBRT to 28+raise brightness slider one click.


I had raised SBRT to 29 from previously used 28 given my combined CUT values had decreased by -5~-10 or so from previous values(occasionally a change of 1 or 2 for the combined DRV values also resulted for my experiments). Specifically, for various experimental values during my recent revisiting of attempting to improve greyscale from my previously(generally) long used values of RDRV~BCUT 32-17-9-32-16-9 (=58 DRV/57 CUT), which were I believe was at least more in the ballpark compared to the factory "greenscale"(as I call it) warm offset values equating(I believe) to RDRV~BCUT 32-17-9-32-17-5 (=58DRV/54 CUT). Although I haven't compared it directly to the "new values" yet, or checked those with the new test pattern for linearity I believe those long used "adjusted" values were a bit +blue and +red(more +red, and perhaps slightly on the "cool" side), with the factory warm offset values I believe being quite a bit +red and a bit -blue.


Right now, adding up the DRV/CUT values for the lastest set of values after seeing Ken's test pattern for greyscale linearity, I'm -3 from the factory warm offset for combined DRV/CUT's(-4 for the cuts specifically), and -3~-6 or so from most of the values I've experimented with on previous occasions previously, so I'll have to look at black levels+gamma closely(best I can check gamma is with various gamma charts I have on MS) to see if I may need to change anything, slightly. I did do a check of white levels, (picture slider/etc), and don't think I'll need/want to be changing it unless perhaps I end up with different DRV values than current, or much more difference than +/- 2 or 3 or so.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



** - Add'l PC monitor info from earlier "experiments" - Note: Probably should have included this in the earlier post about PC monitors --- "one of these days" -- I now know I need to work on at least one(probably two) of those PC monitors "of particular importance" a bit as well - particularly perhaps linearity wise. One of them is also a little on the +red side, maybe a bit "warm" as well - It sure does look nice though, especially with greyscale images.


Luckily, that particular monitor actually has R/G/B (drive?) controls accessable via it's "settings" menu. Another perhaps odd thing I ran into during these experiments when hooking up monitor to external "VGA" port on a notebook PC, and another PC as well, was that the output of the graphics controller(even concerning greyscale) seems to vary a bit with this differing PC hardware(IBM using Windows) as well - even though I also made sure to use a "driver" for the monitors in question as supplied by the hardware manufacturer, which also includes a color management profile specific to the monitor(s) used.


I do have "gamma" controls available(individual R/G/B sliders can be locked together or adjusted independantly) with the driver for the video controllers in 3 of my PC's(including the notebook), perhaps those can be useful in this regard as well. The best color/greyscale output I can seem to "detect" from the PC hardware I have currently, seems to come from a 10 year old(or more?) Matrox video card installed in a server(which would be very inconvienient to move! I didn't move that next to the TV!) I have sitting in an attic hallway, go figure .....



---------------------------------------------------------------------


Shew! I do believe that is about all I'm going to have to offer concerning my experience getting good "greyscale" without test equipment or a extremely good optical comparator! Can't thank Ken+everyone else who has contributed here on this issue enough, everyone's comments+the discussion on this was really of great help !


----------



## dshreter

I made the sorry mistake of resetting 30XS955 to the factory/newborn state. I know I'm an idiot but there's no taking it back now.


Anyway, I'm trying to get the TV back to a watchable state and I'm having some trouble. I've copied in as many of the defaults as possible. The problem is that my menus are a bit different from those in the spreadsheet attached in this forum. Other people have listed the same issue. Notably, my MID3 is entirely different, and I think this is key to why I can't get things to look right.


My mid3 is as follows: And I realize that my settings for several of these are probably totally wrong as I haven't been able to attempt to calibrate them yet with the starting far out of whack.


0 YCPO 40

1 CCPO 40

2 PRPB 1

3 DOSA 0

4 YCWD 1

5 MYCD 0

6 PSTP 136

7 PSTT 0

8 VHSC 50

9 VHSL 1

10 PLHC 100

11 PLHL 2

12 MDTC 2

13 MFRV 0


Question 1: Can anyone with the same MID3 menu share their values with me? Also, what do you have as your ID7 setting, and will changing mine make any difference? Mine is set at 11.


Question2: I'm under the impression that its possible to copy the firmware/user data from one tv to another via memory stick. Does anyone know how to do this and/or is willing to copy their data for me in the bay area if I provide the memory stick?


----------



## KenTech

*MEASURING SCREEN BRIGHTNESS WITH A PHOTO LIGHT METER*


If you have a hand-held light meter that has an EV scale, you have a very easy way to measure screen brightness. If there is no EV scale, you will have to convert from shutter and f-stop settings, but thats only one more step. Even if you have only a film camera whose light meter you trust, you can do quite well its just more cumbersome. (Maybe you have a friend with a light meter he no longer uses, having purchased an automatic/digital camera. Thats was my source!)


Youll want to know what area you are metering, and so the light meter should indicate somehow what its coverage is. A spot meter is best, or a camera with a defined-area spot-metering feature.


Using an EV (Exposure Value) scale is easiest. You set your film speed to DIN 100 (or ASA 100), and read the brightness of an area in EV. Or, with that same DIN 100, set the shutter at 1/15 and note the f-stop readout. (See chart below.)


There is an attached chart that relates EV at DIN 100 to brightness in either the older system of foot-Lamberts (ft-L) or candelas/square-meter (cd/sq.m), a more modern brightness-unit. On the chart, the black diagonal line is foot-Lamberts and the red line is candelas/square-meter. Simply note on the chart where a measured EV vertically intersects the red line, then look horizontally to the scale at the left to get the cd/sq.m value. Same with the black line and ft-L. (Sorry for the hand-drawn look. I did it on old semi-log graph paper with pens and pencil.)


Example: Put up a white test pattern that covers only about the middle 20-30% of the screen, and measure the EV. Suppose you measure 9.0. That values intersects the black line at 21 ft-L or the red line at 72 cd/sq.m.


(A caution: Whole-screen or half-screen white will activate the brightness-limiting feature on the Sony DA-4 TVs we have, and so your measurement will be erroneously low! Further, all of these CRT-TVs have a bright spot dead-center, and so you may wish to use a pattern that has an off-center white patch, such as the gray-steps-plus-pluge screen on DVE. Dont use the TVs built-in white block test pattern its not 100% white.)


The gray-shaded boxes represent certain accepted standard brightness levels: the larger box for direct-view and otherwise bright televisions (like our Sonys), and the smaller box the THX certification standard for movie theaters.


Here are the equivalent f-stops for a shutter of 1/15 second at DIN 100. As you can see, an EV difference of 1 = 1 f-stop = a factor of 2 in shutter speed. I chose 1/15 because it results in reasonable f-stop values:


EV 10.0 = f8.0

EV 9.0 = f5.6

EV 8.0 = f4.0

EV 7.0 = f2.8

EV 6.0 = f2.0


Now, working to a brightness target value, suppose you want your TV to have a bright-white level of about 30 ft-L (= 100cd/sq.m), a good viewing brightness for usual evening TV-watching. Colors are bright, the TV isnt overstressed, the electron beam probably bloats a bit on white, but not enough to matter. Heres how to proceed.


Put up a part-screen white box from one of the test DVDs. Set your Brightness slider for a decent black level and increase Contrast until you get a measurement of EV 9.6 on your meter or the equivalent of 1/15th second shutter at halfway between f5.6 and f8. Thats it. That is very close to 30ft-L no need to split hairs.)


If you are in service mode 2170P-1, trying to establish a reasonable relationship among the _DRV, _CUT, and SBRT settings, here is a good target method: Set the Contrast slider to, say, 31 (midpoint), the Brightness slider to 31, and set SBRT to 31. Now use whatever _CUT settings give you an approximately correct black level and neutral color. Red will likely be 15-25 points higher than green or blue. (Theres no magic range for SBRT; I set mine, and the charts suggest, somewhere near the middle of the 0-63 range. My _CUT settings ended up at 43-21-23 with SBRT at 28 after some weeks of tinkering.)


Finally, increase the _DRV settings to get you 30ft-L on that white test patch. I finally got the _DRV settings right for my TV at about 44-26-23, with a really neutral white point. No question that there was much tinkering over the weeks getting the color and grayscale right. But as long as my _DRV, _CUT, and SBRT are close to the original rough settings, I know that Contrast = 31 gives me an accepable 30ft-L screen brightness. I can then routinely adjust Contrast to suit the video material and the room conditions on-the-fly.


A reminder: Different models of the DA-4 chassis and different copies of the same model will end up with different settings, so anyones suggestions are very rough! Those midpoint settings arent magic, either. Theyre just sensible places to start, and calibrating the different sliders to the 31 midpoint makes it much easier to remember when returning your set to its normal settings after changing them.

*Here* again is the location of the chart I previously uploaded that consolidates in one place the service-menu parameters that affect black level, white-brightness, color, etc.

 

EV-BrightnessSmall.zip 115.294921875k . file

 

EV-BrightnessSmall.pdf 116.69921875k . file


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yep! Unless you practice this, simply looking at a continuous-tone b/w picture (Color=Min) turns out to be a poor test, no matter what I have said before. I now much prefer something like the 4-patch gray plus pluge on DVE. The adjacent gray patches are different enough, and white and dark gray are close enough, that you can much more easily see whether, say, the dark gray is bluer than the white or lightest gray. The dim pluge bars represent a deep "black" if you up the Brightness a little, so you can unify the whole pattern. Then you can check your work by skipping thru channels with Color=Min to see if you're reasonably on-target.



I tried this, and did help - thanks. I guess this is about all we can do without a colorimeter. I have gotten mine acceptable now....how accurate it is, I don't know.


Color temperature aside, my set looks better than ever with the high _DRV and _CUT values. I did some more tests and found virtually no correlation between SBRT and the _CUT settings. No matter how high I have the _CUT settings it does not require a reduction in SBRT according to my black level test patterns. The image I have now is amazingly 3 dimensional with awesome shadow detail and deep blacks.


Did you ever figure out why this is (or why I'm perceiving it is)???


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Even if you have only a film camera whose light meter you trust, you can do quite well -



Great idea! It also occurs to me this would likely be a good method to use to "double check" and perhaps improve my white level "balancing" among different inputs/soures with ****/etc, and make any adjustments as necessary. Given of course a suitable level of white on screen from test pattern(easy enough to do for MS, and for inputs I can hook up a DVD player).


Anyhow -- Ok -- I found this to be easy enough, except for documenting my results in this post! I tried this with the light meter on my trusty Canon FTb SLR, using 50mm Canon FD lens(note to self - although it's fine now, need to get a new battery for the light meter soon!). In this application, It's light meter(uses CdS photocell/coupled to shutter speed, f-stop+film speed) uses Full aperature Metering, but with a central area metering system, which measures the center 12% of the frame or "picture area". You can see the 12% area of measurement directly in the viewfinder. As suggested, to take the measurements I used 1/15 shutter speed, ASA 100 film speed setting.


For the test pattern, I used DVE chapter 12, #12 "window" pattern, which is labeled "100% amplitude"(100 IRE I presume), and set the camera such that the entire metered area was "covered" with the white from the test pattern, with the TV set for "full" mode(test pattern(including all the black in the test pattern uses the entire 16x9 screen). I believe this results in somewhat close to about 20~30% or so of the screen area. I didn't double check it to make sure, but I hope it wasn't too big of an area of the screen to the extent ABL kicked in. *Update 02:45UTC Mon* : I just confirmed the below measurements with "Pluge+grey" pattern from DVE.


TV settings used: Other than the differences in Picture slider noted farther below, The following relevant settings were used for TV : 2170P-1 - RDRV~BCUT 33-17-9-22-17-11, Brightness slider at 31. SBRT=29(factory adjusted default was SBRT=28). 2170P-4 SPIO at factory default value of 10. Since I was using 480p via component video input from DVD player, I have 2170P-3 UBOF=0 for this source(note: I have UBOF settings ranging from 0~5 to balance black levels among different sources/inputs/etc, just so happens 480p from my DVD player needs the lowest setting). I have 2170P-4 ****=6 for this source, **** ranges from 0~6 to balance white levels among all different sources/inputs. This DVD player at 480p just happens to need the highest **** value, for 480i from the same player to "match" this it needs/is set at ****=0, as do most other sources. Also, of some slight relevance here are my following current settings for CBGN~YGN, which I adjusted necessarily to correct for a color imbalance for 480p/720p+1080i vs. everything else as discussed earlier in this thread, as well as to lower luminance slightly for 720p/1080i from ATSC tuner, given that I "need" ****=0 for those to balance among sources, and can't go any "lower" with ****!. Current settings at left, factory defaults in parenteses :



CBGN = 4 (4)

CRGN = 4 (5)

YGN = 4 (5)


GAMM was set at 0, GAMR~GAMB also all at 0, the default for GAMM=0. BLK also at 0. ABL settings for all pic modes were adjusted per Ken Tech's recommendations early in this thread for "customizing" pic modes involving related ABL settings, without looking it up in my notes If I recall correctly, those are the pro pic mode ABL defaults. Any other relevant settings involved for Black/white levels match service manual listing for "pro" Picture mode defaults.


------------------------------------------

*Light meter measurements* - assuming the measurements are actually quite close to "reality", what I'm measuring seems very much to match what I "expect" I've noticed with my eyes ..... :


Follows is what I measured, listed by "picture slider" setting, unless otherwise notided, the below F-stop readings denote the f-stop setting on the lens required so light meter needle is directly in the middle(or more or less) of the ring, which is "attached" via a apeture signal level+pin to the FD lens, and "moves" inside the viewfinder accordingly with different F-stop settings :


KD34XBR960 -- Current, preferred settings, as noted above, and with picture slider at 23 :


f/4.8~5.2(note there is no label on the lens for this f stop setting - it's in between f4.0 and f5.6 - perhaps the "notch" is a little closer to F 5.6) - According to the info you provided, that would seem to put EV in the range of about 8.4 to 8.8 or so. and, according to your notes and the chart, EV 8.4~8.8 is considered "THX standard" for movie theatres. This setting for "screen brightness" is preferred by me in the sense my eyes *do* seem to like it ....


Honestly, anything brighter given a dim room(with ambient light source behind the TV matched to around the ambient light reference from DVE, mostly being reflected off the walls) Is quite fatiguing to my eyes after more than a few minutes of viewing. Anything dimmer appears "too dim". In fact, even in the daytime with "too much" ambient light of the wrong kind involved, it's more than bright enough, to the point of actually being a bit surprising(to me anyway) given what I've experienced in the past with direct-view CRT's in this regard.


Picture slider at "31" :


f5.6/EV 9.0/~20FL per your chart/Info. It seems a little too bright for my preferences on this TV.



Picture slider at "44" :


Approx f6.8(in between F5.6+F8.0 - there is no label for the actual value on the lens) - This is the target value you suggest for EV around 9.6, as you suggest something around 30FT lamberts -- but, to my eyes, this is just way too bright for me .... but, I suppose to a certian extent it's a matter of preference more than anything else ....


Picture slider at "53" :


f8.0, EV of 10 per your info. Certianly way, way too bright.


Additional measurement on another TV : Note I measured with the same test pattern via the camera's light meter on another set I use(Toshiba 34HF84 - also 34" "HD" 16x9 direct View CRT) with my preferred settings set up for that TV. This measurement resulted in f-stop of somewhere right between about f4.8~5.2(again no label on the lens for that one - I probably have documentation on the lens somewhere which would tell exactly what it is) and 5.6, so, the "needle" for the meter would be "closer" to "in the middle of the ring" given say a ~f5.2~F5.4 setting - Which I'd think should be in the range of 8.6~8.8 EV or so. Not surprisingly, very much along the lines of what I prefer "screen brightness" wise on the Sony .....



----------------------------------



> Quote:
> , I know that Contrast = 31 gives me an accepable 30ft-L screen brightness.



Well, not meaning to be "contrary"(at all, so please don't take this the wrong way!) here, as each to his own, and what is preferred by YOU is of course the important thing in your circumstance ... However, just to comment on this from my "perspective" ---- according to my "measurements" as noted above(if correct, and I suspect they probably are, or are close enough given the results I've been consistantly getting from exposures with this camera+light meter for many, many years, although I've never actually compared it with another light meter ) : I don't think with this set(or any other) there is any way anything that bright would be acceptable to my eyes, they would become easily, and quickly fatigued with that much "brightness".


I can also just as easily remember Pic slider="44"=30FT lamberts as I can "31" for EV 9.0, or "23" for my preferred settings -- Which again, evidently are right along the lines of the "THX standard" per your chart - which, although as you say it applies as a standard for movie theatres(presumably not necessarily Direct View CRT's), I find it interesting, perhaps especially as it also seems to "match" my results from the THX optimizer "contrast" setting screen - which is admittedly, not a "precise" way to the "picture slider", and is only one of many other references I've used to set "white levels" and/or "contrast".


Of Most importantance to me is not conforming to any sort of standard for screen brightness in "foot lamberts" - Instead, for me is that white level/screen "brightness" are such that 1). an excellent picture results(a film-like, very "detailed" pic or whatever you want to call it) and #2). that watching a few hours of TV doesn't become fatiguing on the eyes in a "dim" room enviornment because it is "too bright", But, OTOH, not so "dim" that the pic appears "dim" or "lifeless". Generally, seemingly equivilent to striving for a similar effect "on the eyes"(but not quite as pronounced) when going from a very dark scene to a very bright scene as one gets when they go outside on a bright day after being in a darkened room(such as a movie theatre).


I could of course redefine the DRV values for a mid-range slider setting of "31" to be the "same" as my current preferred "23" setting(EV ~8.4~8.8), although I suspect I'd probably be getting awfully close to "0" for BCUT, which wouldn't work very well for experimentation purposes, including using the Offsets ... And again, I really don't see any reason for me to do this ....




> Quote:
> A reminder: Different models of the DA-4 chassis and different copies of the same model will end up with different settings, so anyone's suggestions are very rough!



Definitely! VERY rough! Especially perhaps as it seems what some of us prefer "screen brightness" wise apparently differs. Black levels OTOH are easy to "talk about", and in my experience, fairly easily to set "properly" with a pluge pattern(such as the DVE Pluge+grey or white, or THX optimizer black level test with the "drop shadow").


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MechanicalMan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> AFAIK, the only thing that could be harmful about using Vivid (with the default settings) is the picture setting. On my Sony, Vivid had picture maxed, and Standard was almost as bad. Bolo said in his post that he has "picture... at 31 clicks which is the middle."



anyone else have any say


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I tried this with the light meter on my trusty Canon FTb SLR, using 50mm Canon FD lens(note to self - although it's fine now, need to get a new battery for the light meter soon!). In this application, It's light meter(uses CdS photocell/coupled to shutter speed, f-stop+film speed) uses Full aperature Metering, but with a central area metering system, which measures the center 12% of the frame or "picture area". You can see the 12% area of measurement directly in the viewfinder.



I have intimate familiarity with this camera, having owned two FTb and one F1 (brass!) bodies. IMHO, all of them had inacurate light meters, and they disagreed with each other! The F1 was closest, and I generally compensated with a 1/3-stop change in ASA. The other two consistently overexposed slide film, as I recall, and I recalibrated them to some good independent standard (adjusters under the top case). Then they were fine.


They may be under-reading the brightness of your TV: You think it's 20 ft-L, but it's actually 30-ish. Maybe the reverse. Moreover, make sure that you way over-cover the spot-metering area with the white patch on the TV -- i.e. the known boundary of the spot should be smaller than the white patch as seen in the viewfinder.


My point about the "31" settings was not to recommend a specific value for them but that they were convenient reference points for whatever settings you want them to represent. For you, that should be a comfortable "normal" viewing brightness. My Minolta digital Spotmeter-F sees my "comfortable brightness" as about 30 ft-L for white. Of course, YMMV.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I did some more tests and found virtually no correlation between SBRT and the _CUT settings. No matter how high I have the _CUT settings it does not require a reduction in SBRT according to my black level test patterns. The image I have now is amazingly 3 dimensional with awesome shadow detail and deep blacks.
> 
> 
> Did you ever figure out why this is (or why I'm perceiving it is)???



Your statements challenge my assumptions about how the _CUT parameters work in these TVs, and I'm really grateful that you posted your comments!


My experience is from years of dealing with the physical "cutoff" controls for the red, green, and blue CRT guns. These establish a "turn-on" threshold for each color so that, for a small video signal, say 2 IRE, all the guns begin firing at the same time, preserving correct color balance at the black end of the grayscale. If you crank each one by a bit, you can significantly increase the black level without affecting color.


But it looks to me, too, that _the Sony _CUT settings seem to affect the "black-end" color without affecting the brightness of those tones much_ -- very counterintuitive for me! I've run a couple of brief experiments and I mostly concur with your observations: I jacked my _CUT settings temporarily by 15 points each, pushing red to 61. Increasing each color by the same amount resulted in virtually identical color balance. (At least these parameters seem to track!) Then, while observing a full-range broadcast picture with large dark areas, and with the Color set to Min, I performed a READ on the remote (0 - Enter), which instantly restores the previous settings. The picture did get a bit darker in the shadows, but the color remained the same. So there is some modification of black-level brightness with these _CUT settings, but not much. The color changes brought about by differentially changing the three parameters seem much more obviious than any black-level change. And it seems that the three color settings do track well: equal increments in each of the R, G, and BCUT settings keeps grayscale balance very much the same.


My observations are preliminary, and I have no opinion on what quality changes I may see in the video image, as you have mentioned. I will spend some time investigating this. But my initial tests show that there is an apparent small increase in black level with a large change in all three parameters, and I wonder if this also represents a change in the way video is presented on-screen, not just a level increase.


Next experiment: Use one of the Cool/Warm offsets to replicate those +15 offsets (make each 46) and _maybe_ a compensatory black-level tweak with SBOF. Then, with a simple flick of the remote, I could invoke this series of "new" cutoff settings and check for an image-quality change, too.


I just wanted to validate what you are seeing, RW, and now I must re-think the role that the _CUT settings (and their offsets in _COF) play in setting the dark-end color of the grayscale. (If black-level brightness is little affected, it makes it easier for us to tweak these _CUT settings!)


----------



## KenTech

OUTRAGEOUSLY LOW SCREEN BRIGHTNESS IN THEATERS!


I know this is slightly OT, but since we are discussing target brightness levels for our TVs, some perspective . . .


A-V "experts" seem to agree that a reasonable brightness for direct-view TVs is 30-40 ft-L for 100% white. Personal preferences and ambient lighting make this a broad target, but there's a number, at least.


THX certified theaters must achieve 16 ft-L for white. That also seems to be a good target for projection-TV home systems, but not so easy to attain for the bigger screens.


Here is a quote from the Runco home page:

About foot-Lamberts:


The method of measurement known as foot-Lamberts, is a measurement related to the brightness of a particular image and is equal to 1 lumen per sq. foot of screen surface. A Spectral Radiometer is required to perform this measurement. The SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) specification for a film-type movie theater is a minimum of 16 foot-Lamberts of brightness.


As research by Lucasfilm Ltd's, Theater Alignment Program has determined, movie theaters typically struggle or fail to achieve this brightness specification, even with the high wattage lamps in their film projectors. Since the screen size is generally much smaller for Home Theater, it is possible to consistently achieve 16 foot-Lamberts and most of the time much higher brightness with Runco projectors.
Experts bemoan that some theaters don'e even reach 10 ft-L, trying for economy of projection equipment. Some may be as low as 6-9 ft-L, they say.


So I took my trusty Minolta Spotmeter-F to a fairly new Regal Cinemas multiplex with stadium seating, to watch _Cars_. (An absolute delight! Story suitable for kids, but lots of things for adults to appreciate, especially those who love older cars and state-of-the-art computer animation. Lots of sly cultural references!)


The highest reading I could find near screen center in blown whites, highlights, white reflections from objects -- lots of opportunities to measure! -- was EV 5.6. 5.6! At least it wasn't greenish, as is another theater I know.


Let's see -- that's almost off the bottom of the chart I posted! EV 5.6 = *2 ft-L*.


Now I am wondering where I can go to experience even a 10 ft-L screen! No wonder movies look so much more vivid at home, where I can get the same subtended viewing angle by sitting close to the TV. The "theater experience" is becoming a downer for me, except for (maybe) the sound.


Sorry for the rant, but I wonder if there's any question why the home-theater market seems to be growing so rapidly! It means to me that the time and bucks I have invested in tweaking my excellent TV are very much worth it! Cheers for all of us! Boo, Hiss to Regal!


----------



## HDTVblues3

Afternoon, everyone.


DSperber - Thank you for your tips. I tried responding twice before but my power went out both times.

The settings you mentioned on page 51 did help me to tweak the screen, allowing me to get the image into the screen more, and get it to look as close to possible as a pro job. Tho the problem with adjusting the 1080i/720p horizontal and vertical settings, still seems to make the 480i/p modes look like an off center (to the left) bubble.


KenTech - This thread has become my addiction. Thank you for this and the many posters here as well.

You mention turning off the shutters on pg. 54 i believe,?, I'm not too sure yet if that allows me to adjust the picture in 1080i/720p, but turning them off still doesn't seem to stop the affects on 480i/p modes. Could there be something I'm missing, or is my model (kv30hs420) just not that flexible in service menu?


If it just can't be fixed in my model, then I'll adjust the settings to look as incredible as I can til a HiDef DVE disc is released. And purchase myself something for 480i/p viewing/gameplay.


Also - Is there anyone here who has adjust the different viewing modes 480i/p, 720p, 1080i separately in (kv30hs420), and can you lend a few tips?


Thank you.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your statements challenge my assumptions about how the _CUT parameters work in these TVs, and I'm really grateful that you posted your comments!
> 
> 
> My experience is from years of dealing with the physical "cutoff" controls for the red, green, and blue CRT guns. These establish a "turn-on" threshold for each color so that, for a small video signal, say 2 IRE, all the guns begin firing at the same time, preserving correct color balance at the black end of the grayscale. If you crank each one by a bit, you can significantly increase the black level without affecting color.
> 
> 
> But it looks to me, too, that _the Sony _CUT settings seem to affect the "black-end" color without affecting the brightness of those tones much_ -- very counterintuitive for me! I've run a couple of brief experiments and I mostly concur with your observations: I jacked my _CUT settings temporarily by 15 points each, pushing red to 61. Increasing each color by the same amount resulted in virtually identical color balance. (At least these parameters seem to track!) Then, while observing a full-range broadcast picture with large dark areas, and with the Color set to Min, I performed a READ on the remote (0 - Enter), which instantly restores the previous settings. The picture did get a bit darker in the shadows, but the color remained the same. So there is some modification of black-level brightness with these _CUT settings, but not much. The color changes brought about by differentially changing the three parameters seem much more obviious than any black-level change. And it seems that the three color settings do track well: equal increments in each of the R, G, and BCUT settings keeps grayscale balance very much the same.
> 
> 
> My observations are preliminary, and I have no opinion on what quality changes I may see in the video image, as you have mentioned. I will spend some time investigating this. But my initial tests show that there is an apparent small increase in black level with a large change in all three parameters, and I wonder if this also represents a change in the way video is presented on-screen, not just a level increase.
> 
> 
> Next experiment: Use one of the Cool/Warm offsets to replicate those +15 offsets (make each 46) and _maybe_ a compensatory black-level tweak with SBOF. Then, with a simple flick of the remote, I could invoke this series of "new" cutoff settings and check for an image-quality change, too.
> 
> 
> I just wanted to validate what you are seeing, RW, and now I must re-think the role that the _CUT settings (and their offsets in _COF) play in setting the dark-end color of the grayscale. (If black-level brightness is little affected, it makes it easier for us to tweak these _CUT settings!)



I'm glad to hear this. As I have said, the depth of my image is now stunning, yet it still has great shadow detail and deep blacks. I was able to lower SBRT/Brightness to its true point on the test pattern as I previously had it two notches above because I felt I needed more shadow detail, but this resulted in a little bit of undesirable washout, which is now completely gone. I hope you will experiment with it more, and try to get a good grey scale with the highest _DRV and _CUT settings possible.


I also found a similar effect with the _DRV settings, which also appear to be somewhat different adjustments than the regular "Picture" adjustment from the main menu. I tested this by having significantly higher _CUT values than _DRV values figuring I could just raise "Picture" to get an equal result, but it didn't materialize. The balance of the white level to black level still looked off not matter how high I raised the contrast! Interestingly enough, raising _DRV settings will require a lowering of overall contrast from the main menu.....hmmmmmmmm????? Weird. Any explanation?


Did you also try and test my perceived difference in keeping the coresponding _DRV and _CUT values the same or very nearly the same? For some reason, this just seems to provide the most natural balance of contrast and showdow detail. I'm very curious why. I managed to get my greyscale with not more than +1 or -1 difference between the corresponding colors, and I believe the image is significantly improved because of this.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The color changes brought about by differentially changing the three parameters seem much more obviious than any black-level change. And it seems that the three color settings do track well: equal increments in each of the R, G, and BCUT settings keeps grayscale balance very much the same.



I'm not sure what you mean by this. I have found that increasing the _CUTs by themselves will not only throw greyscale off, but will distort the appearance of the image. A corresponding color increase in the _DRVs is necessary when raising any of the _CUT adjustments. I have found that every 2 increases in _DRV is about equivalent to 5 increases in _CUT for the purposes of color/greyscale. But more so, I have found that the image gets distorted if the _CUT values stray too far from the corresponding _DRV values. The closer they are in number to one another, the better the image looks (assuming accurate greyscale); with the most improved image quality the higher the settings are.


For example my settings currently are:


RDRV = 63

GDRV = 31

BDRV = 36


RCUT = 63

GCUT = 32

BCUT = 37


In terms of greyscale - compared to the percentages of green to blue that you posted (based on a 2 _DRV = 5 _CUT), mine would seem to be plus blue, but it doesn't appear at all plus blue to me. Raising green any higher yields a slight greenish push, and setting blue any lower makes for a slight reddish push. I wonder how much these sets vary from one another???


Also, my color decoder settings are:


RYR = 15

RYB = 15

GYR = 3

GYB = 7


I know they don't effect greyscale, but this was the best compromise I could come up with without there being too much green or too much red.


----------



## KenTech

I don't understand some of your words:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by this. I have found that increasing the _CUTs by themselves will not only throw greyscale off, but will distort the appearance of the image.



What do you mean by "distort"?


> Quote:
> A corresponding color increase in the _DRVs is necessary when raising any of the _CUT adjustments. I have found that every 2 increases in _DRV is about equivalent to 5 increases in _CUT for the purposes of color/greyscale. But more so, I have found that the image gets distorted if the _CUT values stray too far from the corresponding _DRV values.



Again, I don't get your meaning of "distort." Do you mean some kind of brightness-range compression, as though the lighter tones are blocking or shadow detail is running together?


> Quote:
> In terms of greyscale - compared to the percentages of green to blue that you posted (based on a 2 _DRV = 5 _CUT), mine would seem to be plus blue, but it doesn't appear at all plus blue to me. Raising green any higher yields a slight greenish push, and setting blue any lower makes for a slight reddish push. I wonder how much these sets vary from one another???



I don't understand your numbers and "percentages" comments and the "green to blue" reference. Could you explain in different terms or something?


I hope you aren't using my exact numbers to judge anything about yours, as they are likely to be different. The incremental effects are built-in to the programming and electronics, but the absolute amounts depend on so much on what varies in manufacturing.


*********

So you would say, for purposes of color adjustment, if I change a _DRV settings by 2, it takes about 5 clicks of _CUT to straighten out color again? (I've never figured out this ratio.)


When I mentioned "differential" adjustments of _CUT, I meant that the sensitivity of onscreen shadow tint to changes in one or two of the _CUT parameters seems to me disproportionate to the change in brightness if I change all of them by a specific amount, e.g. raise them all equally by 5. But this may be my misinterpretation of their effect based on my experience with analog monitor adjustments. No one should attribute great imporrtance to this! I'm confessing my personal history's effect on my cuirrent observations, that's all.


If this 5:2 _CUT:_DRV ratio holds, then my tweaking of _CUT by the same offset as I tweak _DRV to get a color-temp change is somewhat in error. And yet, it seems to work! This is why I think for the moment that the color differences effected by differetial _CUT adjustent is a more-sensitive adjustment than any black-level change effected by changing them all by the same amount. Again, this may be an illusion, and I remain open to that possibility.


I can't imagine how this would be implemented in the circuitry, but anything is possible with the electronics being as complex and computational as it is.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Did you also try and test my perceived difference in keeping the coresponding _DRV and _CUT values the same or very nearly the same? For some reason, this just seems to provide the most natural balance of contrast and showdow detail.



I've always done this by default, I suppose for reasons only an engineer can appreciate. (The values are "centered" in the range -- very elegant!) Example: 45-25-23 -- 45-18-22 for _DRV and _CUT, SBRT at 28 and Brightness and Contrast sliders at 31.


I will also try your "jack 'em all up to the max" method to see if some *quality* of the image changes. I have no preconceptions of what to expect, and you've made me very curious.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Interestingly enough, raising _DRV settings will require a lowering of overall contrast from the main menu.....hmmmmmmmm????? Weird. Any explanation?



Well, yes. Raising all _DRV settings by the same amount is equivalent to turning up the "volume" of each color by the same amount, which is equivalent to raising the "volume" of the video's luminance -- which is what Contrast does with one control. Black level stays nearly the same, depending on the circuit.


Cutoff and Drive is a classic offset-plus-gain amplifier situation. Cutoff is really a voltage pedestal on which the video of each color is lifted, and then Drive is how much it increases as video goes from 0 to 100 IRE (black to white) for each color. Bottom line: A change in Cutoff adds a fixed amount to each color's amplitude, and Drive changes the multiplier (gain) of the intensity of each color. So a fixed _CUT increment of 5 adds much more to the color shift at the "black" end of the brightness range than it does to white because that 5 is a much greater proportion of the actual signal driving the color gun when it's just starting to fire, as opposed to when it's already firing nearly 100%.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Again, I don't get your meaning of "distort." Do you mean some kind of brightness-range compression, as though the lighter tones are blocking or shadow detail is running together?



I'm sorry for the confusion...distort is probably a poor word usage. What I mean is that the balance of white level/contrast to shadow detail/black level becomes unnaturally skewed regardless of the balance between Brightness and "Picture" (contrast) from the main menu.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So you would say, for purposes of color adjustment, if I change a _DRV settings by 2, it takes about 5 clicks of _CUT to straighten out color again? (I've never figured out this ratio.)



["A corresponding color increase in the _DRVs is necessary when raising any of the _CUT adjustments. I have found that every 2 increases in _DRV is about equivalent to 5 increases in _CUT for the purposes of color/greyscale. But more so, I have found that the image gets distorted if the _CUT values stray too far from the corresponding _DRV values."]


I meant to say that a corresponding decrease (not increase) in _DRV is necessary when raising any of _CUT adjustments for the purposes of getting the values for each color close to one another. For example, if you raise BCUT by 5, to keep the color temperature about the same, I have found you need to decrease BDRV by about 2.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I hope you aren't using my exact numbers to judge anything about yours, as they are likely to be different. The incremental effects are built-in to the programming and electronics, but the absolute amounts depend on so much on what varies in manufacturing.



I was only using your numbers to ball park mine, and doing so seemed to indicate that my color temperate would be a little plus blue compared to yours, which I hope can be attributed to manufacturing variation.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I mentioned "differential" adjustments of _CUT, I meant that the sensitivity of onscreen shadow tint to changes in one or two of the _CUT parameters seems to me disproportionate to the change in brightness if I change all of them by a specific amount, e.g. raise them all equally by 5. But this may be my misinterpretation of their effect based on my experience with analog monitor adjustments. No one should attribute great imporrtance to this! I'm confessing my personal history's effect on my cuirrent observations, that's all.
> 
> 
> If this 5:2 _CUT:_DRV ratio holds, then my tweaking of _CUT by the same offset as I tweak _DRV to get a color-temp change is somewhat in error. And yet, it seems to work! This is why I think for the moment that the color differences effected by differetial _CUT adjustent is a more-sensitive adjustment than any black-level change effected by changing them all by the same amount. Again, this may be an illusion, and I remain open to that possibility.



I haven't experimented with this, so I don't know.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've always done this by default, I suppose for reasons only an engineer can appreciate. (The values are "centered" in the range -- very elegant!) Example: 45-25-23 -- 45-18-22 for _DRV and _CUT, SBRT at 28 and Brightness and Contrast sliders at 31.
> 
> 
> I will also try your "jack 'em all up to the max" method to see if some *quality* of the image changes. I have no preconceptions of what to expect, and you've made me very curious.



Try proceeding this way:


Use the 5:2 ratio to make your greens closer to one another. In this case GDRV = 23 (-2 from 25) and GCUT = 23 (+5 from 18). Your reds are the same, and your blues are only different by 1 value. Next try to find the highest possible values with about same ratios:


45-23-23 DRV = about 63-32-32, and 45-23-22 CUT = about a 63-32-31. This would just be rough starting point, but it should keep your color temperature somewhere near where it is now. In the end, you will probably have to fine tune it some more for an accurate greyscale, but I believe you should be able see the increase in image quality (depth and shadow detail) I'm experiencing.


Be sure to recalibrate SBRT as well, keeping it as low as possible but still accurate according to the test pattern.


----------



## GlenC

You guys are going a little stray with your cut/drv relationships. A video signal 255/255/255 or 100/100/100 produces white/gray. Phosphor drive is a little different because you don't use equal amounts of R/G/B to make white. For reference, my CRT projector, uses R=34%, G=100%, B=9% for white (Red - 380 ftL, Green - 1117 ftL, Blue - 100.7 ftL).


When you talk about making changes in cut/drv, a step of 1 for blue may have more of an effect on white than a step of 1 on green or red.


Adjusting _CUT levels can and should affect Black level, gamma, and _DRV settings. A change in BCUT generally will affect BDRV, but not 1:1.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IThe other two consistently overexposed slide film, as I recall,



Certianly there have been some little "quirks" I have worked out "along the way"(some of which I've probably forgotten!), with the Ftb, but, I do know I've never ran into anything quite like that. In fact, I've allways been very pleased with how the light meter on it has worked out, given the results I've experienced while shooting with all sorts of light conditions.


If anything, as I recall in some, "specific" cases exposures have turned out slightly "darker" than I expected, but also as I recall there were other reasons likely involved besides any sort of inaccracy from the light meter. Such, as situations which required me to "average" light meter readings for bright/dark areas in scene+ any added slight compensations I made for exposure settings to try to "get what I wanted". For example, think dark forest with a few bright spots of sunlight making it through the canopy, when I want to preserve some fine details in the shadows while at the same time not overexposing the bright spots too much or getting a "washed out" effect.


One thing is certian, *I* certianly am(or at least was when I was using the camera in such situations much more often) *calibrated* to it's light meter when such manual *compensation* was required, given I knew what to "expect" after many experiments in similar situations


I certianly can't vouch for the light meter's accuracy to any "specific" degree, however.


Even recall being a bit stunned at just how GOOD some of the scans of negatives from film exposed in the Ftb looked when I first got my 35mm film scanner, without any corrections via software of any kind. Surely any "artifacts" introduced by the scanner couldn't exactly "reverse" any problems with the exposures!



> Quote:
> They may be under-reading the brightness of your TV: You think it's 20 ft-L, but it's actually 30-ish. Maybe the reverse.



Certianly. I suppose I should have worded some of my last post a little differently. Although it might be interesting to know an accurate measurement of the screen(as it relates to your recent movie theatre screen brightness post, for example), all that is really important is what it looks like to my eyes, and I don't need a meter for that.


For my purposes, there are however, several quite useful applications for the Ftb's light meter I can think of. For example, using the light-meter readings as a comparator between screen brightness levels from different sources(where possible), and as a reference -- Such as for "redefining" the _DRV~_CUT for a different pic slider setting while easily ensuring I keep my preferred screen brightness level, or for looking at changes in screen brightness levels as the set ages/phospor's wear, and adjusting accordingly. As slow as that happens, it probably goes unnoticed until a certian "dimness" is reached.


In fact, I've already used it to verify, and in some cases slightly improve upon my previous "by eye only" "balancing" of screen brightness levels among different sources with 2170P-4 **** and other relevant settings. In one case involving MS viewer, as described farther below, I came across(seemingly at this point) quite a difference I hadn't noticed before ... I was also a bit surprised to notice changes in brightness as small as resulted from a one value change of the picture slider were detectable with the Ftb's light meter -- Certianly, the needle didn't change much with one click of pic slider, but given the references available "in the viewfinder" with the apeture ring indicator, it seemed to work quite well in detecting "small" changes.


Note that while sometimes it might be desirable to "tweak" the pic slider due to differences in programming, I generally don't "mess with it" and just live with such differences. I also noticed last night that in *some* circumstances It turns out I need slightly different Pic slider values from "23" set for different inputs in cases where white level can't be balanced out for those inputs/sources with ****(or anything else I can find) :


For example, ALL 480i DRC processed signals use the SAME **** value - which doesn't work for perfect balance for screen brightness between, for example, in my case 480i DVD via component V5 input AND 480i ATSC from internal tuner. And of course, 2103-1 "SCON" doesn't apply to those as it does "seperately" for 480i DRC processed signals from NTSC signal sources via RF or CV/YC inputs. Note I'm also a bit wary about adjusting factory SCON values given the the "set with a scope" info for SCON from the manual.


So, In this case, what is needed for the same pic slider setting for ATSC 480i(via "RF" input from "ANT") and for 480i DVD via V5 is only a difference of "1" for ****. If I could do it, ****=0 for 480i ATSC and ****=1 for 480i via V5 would work perfectly, but I can only use ****=0 for both. And, ****=0 is what I have it set at for DRC, given 480i ATSC is my "brightest" source. And, I want everything which uses "RF" input to match as closely as possible as I don't want to be twiddling the pic slider unnecessarily for different scan rates used with a single "input". In this case, NTSC+ATSC 480i/p/720p/1080i from Internal ATSC/NTSC or QAM "tuners".


So, even though it's a very slight difference, I'm striving for "perfection" as much as possible here! So, what I did in this case was leave **** at "0" for 480i DRC signals, and, for my preferred screen brightness setting, raise my Pic slider to "24" for 480i DVD via component 5, and then lower by one value my setting for 480p component(used with same DVD player) to "match" that new 24 pic slider value used with V5.


Info on The BIGGEST, and unexpected oddity(from what I can tell at this point) I came across follows -- Note: I do need to look at this closer, and attempt to better verify+make sure the test pattern I was using for MS is working "right" via the viewer. It's the pluge+extreme Grey pattern you've posted. In which case, shouldn't the top greyscale step be a reference for white (100 IRE) when viewed via MS, and therefore be a viable reference ? :


ATSC 1080i/720p/480p and MS share the same "****" value === but it looks like at this point I need about 4~5 clicks of Pic slider higher for the MS viewer to "balance it" with everything else, which is using either PIC slider=23(everything else except V5 for DVD) or pic slider=24(V5 for DVD) ! ...


BTW, I'm not positive, and can't say for sure yet(and may never be able to), and the following seems to contridict and earlier comment of yours on this .... But, at this point, on my set at least, I do believe the QM PATN white box window pattern(#3? or thearabouts in each "series" of 1080i/480i/480p/720p ATSC patterns) seems to be at or close to a repressentation of 100IRE "white", as I believe is the full "white screen"/field ~#5 in each "series" of patterns(well, other than any ABL effects that might be involved) ... I can say the somewhat "white" full screen patterns at the end of the series(#15~19 or so?) are definitely NOT representation of 100IRE/white ...



> Quote:
> Moreover, make sure that you way over-cover the spot-metering area with the white patch on the TV -- i.e. the known boundary of the spot should be smaller than the white patch as seen in the viewfinder.



It was easy to move the camera back from the TV(hence the "white patch" became too small to fill enough "area" in and around the light-metering area) and see the point where the reading changed.


As you may recall, on Ftb there is a small "darker" rectangular area shown in the viewfinder which directly indicates the light-metering area. The small circle in center of the rectangle, and center of the viewfinder is for focusing. -- This rectangular area made for a good reference to note how much "white area" from the test pattern(such as the 100IRE white "box" on the Pluge w/grey scale pattern on DVE) on the TV had to be outside of that rectangular area before the reading changed as I moved the camera(on tripod) back from set. I tested it several times with a few different test patterns(including comparisons to the entire viewfinder covered with white which was possible with AVIA or DVE window patterns with the camera quite close to TV), and I found that, actually, only a very, very small area "outside" of that little rectangle was needed for the same reading as occured with the entire viewfinder filled with white.



> Quote:
> My point about the "31" settings was not to recommend a specific value for them but that they were convenient reference points for whatever settings you want them to represent. For you, that should be a comfortable "normal" viewing brightness. My Minolta digital Spotmeter-F sees my "comfortable brightness" as about 30 ft-L for white. Of course, YMMV.



Certianly agree such a mid-point value reference is a great idea when possible, again, perhaps I should have worded part of my post a bit differently --- However -- I'm just saying in some cases(such as with my set and my "eyes" and the screen brightness which Is best and comformtable), using "31" Pic slider may not be easily "acheivable", or "preferred" as the reference point for preferred screen brightness level.


For instance ... I certianly have black levels set/balanced so I use brightness slider="31" for all inputs/devices, same thing for having related SM settings adjusted as much as possible so the "sharpness" slider is at/near mid point values ... But, concerning the "picture" slider, in my case :


#1). With my TV's current settings, with some exceptions(depending on programming and inputs/sources that can't be balanced with 2170P-4/****, or 2103-1/SCON or anything else I can find as mentioned earlier in post) --- Pic slider "31" does NOT result in a comfortable normal viewing, it's TOO bright/fatiging on my eyes after a relatively short period.


Even in the Daytime when there is plenty of amibient light, using a 31 setting it's noticably(slightly) too "bright"(except for MS viewer), no matter what the FL may actually be. And, I'm not the ONLY one who has noticed this, I asked everyone who watches the set this afternoon while adjusting the pic slider a bit, and heard the same thing from the rest of family. Pic slider =23 is NOT too dim even during the day with lots of light in the room(and at night it's "perfect"), 31 is just at the point of getting "too bright" in the Daytime, and is very noticably past that point by several clicks at night .. Pic slider=18 for instance, certianly IS too dim however, although you wouldn't know it if you were watching the set in a completely dark room.


#2), So, OK -- Pic slider "23" is perfect(more or less), which works for me :


But, perhaps I can "redefine" _DRV to bring that "up" to Pic slider='31" for a mid-point value instead -- Well, maybe I can, and perhaps that is preferrable to using "23" as the reference point for the preferred screen brightness levels, and perhaps I might do/try that someday --- However -- Keep in mind, for example, I have **** values as low as 0 for my "brightest" sources, and RDRV~BCUT have allways ranged with values between 33~5, including for all my greyscale experiments(well, except a brief experiment with higher values for RDRV up in the 40's -- I needed a much lower PIC slider value for that!) .... which are in the general range of the factory "warm offset" values ....


Again, haven't tried it yet, but If I LOWER the _DRV values to redefine things so my preferred screen brightness is "set" for "pic slider=31"(given that I can't for example lower "****" any more) -- I suspect "in range" Settings for BDRV are going to be getting awfully close, at, or near the range of "ZERO" value! And that would NOT work very well, even if it did end up at say as high a reading as "BDRV=3", given what I might want to experiment with via the warm/cool offsets to the point it might drop below zero, or perhaps after the set changes significantly lower values would also be needed ...


So, I'd really like to make sure BDRV or BCUT will not, or will never potientially be concievably any lower than "5", in which case the maximum amount I would currently consider lowering _DRV values would be by about, well ZERO, Since the factory warm offsets equate(or so I "believe") to RDRV~BCUT = 32-17-9-32-17-5, and the XBR960 service manual chart listing equating for warm offset would equate to BDRV=5 ....


But perhaps I'm missing something, here? I am also intrigued, and also thought about trying RWhetmore's suggestion at some point concerning cranking up _DRV+_CUts, but I expect that would certianly require a low pic slider value. Nothing wrong with that I suppose, however, as long as it is at least as high as 5 or 6, in case I do need or desire to lower it in certian circumstances!


At one time, I did experiment with lowering 2170P-4/SPIO from it's factory adjusted value of 10 in order to attempt to achieve a mid-point "31" Picture slider value for my preferred reference -- However - It might have been just me(and just knowing the manual says "set it with a 'scope"), but it looked like there may have been something else that may have been going on rather than just SPIO being a global "contrast" adjustment which does the exact "same thing" as the Picture silder .... So, Not being sure about that, and having spent more time on it than I wanted several months ago, I decided to return SPIO it to factory default and just be happy with Pic slider "23" for my preferred setting .... Which really, I am perfectly happy with


----------



## dshreter

I've messed with many of my service menus because I did the dreaded reset. I set up mostly alright again, however, every time I turn the TV on it asks me to input the language and input the vertical and horizontal business. Is there some setting that I could have flipped that is causing this? I've read the entire forum, but can't seem to get this to stop. It still remembers the time I have set, and it isn't going back to "vivid" when I turn the TV, it just always asks for those initial settings.


Edit: I just needed to let it run the autoprogram.


One more question though, in the charts, what is the meaning of VGA? I'm a bit confused trying to figure out the default values for mid1 as don't really understand the meaning of VGA ,single, index, and favorites in this context. Specifically, for MID1:MDHP, with 480i input on video 5, i _think_ it says 174 is the default value here, but this is WAY outside of my scan range, and the image just goes to garbage if I raise it that high, I'm set at 57.



Are my posts being ignored because I reset my TV?


----------



## jjt667




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MechanicalMan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> fwiw = for what it's worth
> 
> 
> I can't advise you. But I think I'd be a little nervous if I needed to put my SBRT so high. That doesn't seem normal. As you said, the default is 12. If your TV looks right at 54, it must have looked completely wrong at 12..? So without going into the service menu (which we aren't expected to do), you wouldn't have been able to get a satisfactory picture on your TV? I'd be afraid that something is wrong with the set. I wouldn't want GAMM at 3 on my set either, but that one is subjective. Still, the fact that you have SBRT at 54 and GAMM at 3 makes it sound like you are compensating for a problem. *shrug* Changing your DRV and CUT values won't help.



I have messing around with my tv and raising the DRV and CUT do help, I have raised the settings and now have SBRT at 33 and the picture is about the same as a high SBRT and low Drv and Cut settings.


I ordered an Avia disc and am waiting till it comes to callibrate. I adjust and adjust but can't get the picture perfect. I have also reduced GAMM to 2 as it was too bright before. I still don't fully understand DRV and CUT settings, the whites are still a little to bright and blacks I believe could have more detail.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Adjusting _CUT levels can and should affect Black level, gamma, and _DRV settings. A change in BCUT generally will affect BDRV, but not 1:1.



Glenn, how would adjusting the _CUT settings affect gamma?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Adjusting _CUT levels can and should affect Black level, gamma, and _DRV settings.



That's technically true, but at the time you are adjusting the _CUT settings to get correct grayscale, it doesn't matter. Your task is to get the three colors to balance near the beam-cutoff point. When that happens, you have color neutrality -- or, stated another way, the color of near-black matches the color of white.


NOW, one re-adjusts the black level with SBRT + Brightness (and the other usual input-dependent tweaks) to calibrate it to normal standards using, say, the AVIA or DVE disks. When black level is correct, gamma is restored to what it was before.


Bottom line: Black level affects gamma (as measured, but not necessarily as perceived in the mid-grays). But when we are adjusting the cutoffs for red, green, and blue, _we don't care_. We are adjusting color, not black level. Having perfected color, we can then re-adjust black level.


----------



## MechanicalMan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjt667* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have messing around with my tv and raising the DRV and CUT do help, I have raised the settings and now have SBRT at 33 and the picture is about the same as a high SBRT and low Drv and Cut settings.
> 
> 
> I ordered an Avia disc and am waiting till it comes to callibrate. I adjust and adjust but can't get the picture perfect. I have also reduced GAMM to 2 as it was too bright before. I still don't fully understand DRV and CUT settings, the whites are still a little to bright and blacks I believe could have more detail.



Use the black and white Avia screens to help you set DRV and CUT. If you think whites are too bright, you probably need to lower the picture setting. I think the best way to set white level on this TV is to just experiement during normal viewing until you find the picture setting that you are happiest with.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dshreter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've messed with many of my service menus because I did the dreaded reset...
> 
> 
> One more question though, in the charts, what is the meaning of VGA???
> 
> 
> Are my posts being ignored because I reset my TV?



I believe you have unfortunately posted in the midst of a very, very interesting exchange between a few of this threads "best and brightest." I am, for one, am reading their exchanges very closely, since I'm learning a boatload of new info as they learn from one-another. I hope it isn't because of your unfortunate "reset."


I must acknowledge, though, that after many instances of trying to help those who've made your mistake, I find they tend to continue to dis-respect the SM, the need to record values and the need to be very methodical in their approach to the SM.


You appear to have learned from your mistake and I'll try to help you as much as I can. After all, we're both from the SF Bay Area, right? Those "best and brightest" I mentioned earlier are definitely more qualified to answer your more difficult questions and I hope they'll chime in at the appropriate time, but I'll help as much as I can. I'm temporarily on leave and very far from my HD set, so, for now, I can't share values (setting numbers).


VGA refers to one of many levels of resolutions, display formats, ports and cabling layouts (pins). Here's a definition from Webopedia:


"Abbreviation of video graphics array, a graphics display system for PCs developed by IBM. VGA has become one of the de facto standards for PCs. In text mode, VGA systems provide a resolution of 720 by 400 pixels. In graphics mode, the resolution is either 640 by 480 (with 16 colors) or 320 by 200 (with 256 colors). The total palette of colors is 262,144.

Unlike earlier graphics standards for PCs -- MDA, CGA, and EGA -- VGA uses analog signals rather than digital signals. Consequently, a monitor designed for one of the older standards will not be able to use VGA.


Since its introduction in 1987, several other standards have been developed that offer greater resolution and more colors (see SVGA , 8514/A graphics standard, and XGA), but VGA remains the lowest common denominator. All PCs made today support VGA, and possibly some other more advanced standard."


I hope this helps. And good luck with bringing your set "back."


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dshreter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are my posts being ignored because I reset my TV?:



No, not by me anyway, and I expect not by anyone else here either, although I must agree with JustSc's comments, above. If I had some useful info relating to your questions/comments, I would do my best to answer, but unfortunetly up until now I have not had anything to contribute in that regard. For instance, I've never had My TV require that I input the time, including before I first "autoscanned" for any channels, as I recall, and I had no idea what you were talking about concerning the "vertical and horizontal "stuff" ...

I do have one thing to offer :



> Quote:
> One more question though, in the charts, what is the meaning of VGA? I'm a bit confused trying to figure out the default values for mid1 as don't really understand the meaning of VGA ,single, index, and favorites in this context.



I can tell you "Single"/Index" and "favorites" relates to different features or to put it another way certian "screen formatting modes" which some models of sets(such as my KD34XBR960 concerning Index, favorites/twin view/etc) support. For instance, "Single" refers to when using only a single source input to "fill the screen" - for example, as opposed to using "Twin View" on sets so equipped( A "PIP" like functions which divides the screen into 2 windows, where you can use two sources (say a DVD player in right window, and signals from internal tuner in left window). "index" is a feature that puts a larger window with the input source you are currently watching on left side of screen, and, in a small portion of right side of screen, a scrolling set of small windows appears, in those windows are the content of channels from the NTSC(from antenna or cable) internal tuner. "Favorites" produces a somewhat similar screen mode. your "favorites" but I'm not sure.


Other than per justsc's expanation --- Not sure about "VGA" -- perhaps it may involve when a TV is used as a Output device for a PC/VGA graphics controller via the DVI/HDMI input?, Or perhaps it's for any set models in the past which have used this firmware(or a earlier or different version?) and have had 15-pin VGA/RGB port?


----------



## KenTech

*EQUIVALENCE OF VARIOUS BLACK-LEVEL ADJUSTMENTS, OFFSETS, AND COLOR CUTOFFS*


I have just run a few careful experiments that confirm the following (all in 2170P-1):


(1) The Brightness slider, SBRT, and SBOF all have equivalent increments. E.g. raising Brightness by 20 is exactly canceled by decreasing SBRT by 20. Increasing SBRT by 5 exactly cancels decreasing SBOF by 5.


(2) The black-level increase observed by raising all _CUT settings by 16 is canceled by reducing SBRT by 4, very closely. Thus, there is approximately a 4:1 ratio between clicks of an overall _CUT change and a compensatory change in SBRT.


(3) Raising all _CUT settings by 16 (RCUT now at 61) results in a small minus-red shift in overall color, even though grayscale still seems fairly linear. Thus there appears to be a nonlinearity in the red channel near the top of its range, maybe in other colors.


(4) Raising all _CUT settings by 16 for Neutral color is exactly equivalent to leaving them alone and raising, say, the Cool cutoff offsets by 16 (31-31-31 -- 47-47-47) and switching to Cool. Further, if the SBOF for Cool is also reduced by 4 (7 --> 3), the effect is that black level is preserved -- but there is still that slight minus-red shift overall.


(5) It might occur to someone that you could configure high _CUT settings and high _COF settings, and that might force the total for one color to be higher than 63. But this doesn't work: The limit seems to be that the sum of the _CUT and _COF settings saturate or top out at 63. If you set them so one color totals 63, then make _further_ increases in that color, no color shift is observed. I.e. RCUT=50 + RCOF=51 (offset=20) does NOT = an RCUT equivalent of 70. It stops at 63.


(This makes sense if the internal digital representation and storage of these values has a hard limit.)


CONCLUSIONS: Knowing the above makes it easier to fiddle with the various black-level parameters, knowing some are directly equivalent (Brightness, SBRT, and SBOF).


It also seems as though I could drop my _CUT values by 4 each if they had crept up during experimentation, and then add 1 to SBRT.


I sense that there are nonlinearities or other anomalies at the range-extremes of some of these parameters, and that an adjustment nightmare might ensue. (See #3, above.) Sony's own chart numbers uniformly stay away from those extremes. I think I will keep my settings near the center of each range, since nothing forces me to do otherwise, and the incremental changes track so well that one can experiment fairly intuitively.


As for RWetmore's observation of better shadow detail with his settings so high or with some _CUT and _DRV settings "matching," I think there may be another explanation for that. I'll post a separate opinion. For my part, I am going to avoid those extremes.


I hope this data helps out some folks.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dshreter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Specifically, for MID1:MDHP, with 480i input on video 5, i _think_ it says 174 is the default value here, but this is WAY outside of my scan range, and the image just goes to garbage if I raise it that high, I'm set at 57.



According to the MID1 data chart, (charts are frequently cryptic), the column that applies to 480i seem to be Single - Others - Others, and the default value is 0! I checked my TV with a 480i feed from a DVD on V5, and MDHP is, indeed, set to 0.


At the column level, I don't quite get the "Normal" / "Others" distinction. "Single" does seem to refer to a screen-filling main display, and VGA is for a computer-generated video source connected thru HDMI, as far as I can tell from several charts.


In the MID1-3 groups, be sure to get the values for width and especially height exactly right, as these values control (as I have discovered) the precise sampling of the video for display. Get the vertical ones wrong, and the image quality will be compromised! There are exact ratios between the particular video-line count and the internal digital representation of that video _that have to be maintained_.


The critical values are DHAR, DVAR, MDHS, and MDVS in MID1; in MID2, DRHS and DRVS (if relevant); and in MID3, VDHS and VDVS. The correct numbers are the ones in the data tables.


I would copy all other numbers exactly as listed in the MID1-3 tables, especially MID3 #4-11. The ones associated with "phase" or "pos" (position) can be tweaked a little to balance the centering of a video frame between inputs; but don't mess with these without first getting the positioning right in the 2170D groups.


The data charts are found *here* .


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> At the column level, I don't quite get the "Normal" / "Others" distinction. "



Definitely understandable, as sometimes it doesn't even seem to make "sense" ....


As one example of the use of "others" --- where the columns listed in the chart for CXA2171 CBGN~YGN are "PT", "Others", and "HDMI". Note that In this case, only 480p, 720p+1080i signals are involved/"effected" by the 2171CXA settings, including CBGN~YGN :


PT refers to 1080i pass through "mode"(By pass MID processing).


HDMI refers to (you guessed it, HDMI!)


"Others" - refers to Component video from either V5/V6 component inputs OR from Internal ATSC/QAM tuner(s) +anything else I suppose, although I have no idea what that "anything else" might be(if anything) !


As another example, 2170-D1 "others" column for 2170D-1/ZOOM should/may apply to"screen formatting modes other than "widezoom, Zoom and E-Zoom/Zoom-V ... Such as the "normal" screen mode on 16x9 sets which places a 4x3 signal, with proper aspect ratio "inside" the 16x9 picture area with bars on the sides(black bars unless you've adjusted MID1/BCOL to higher values than 0(black).


In some cases, "others"(and some other columns in the chart) does indeed seem even more "cryptic", in which cases it is sometimes difficult to figure out WHAT they are talking about, or what it applies to ... It is not as if a "others" message appears in the Green text at top of screen when you are working in SM as do as other info on the signal source, such as "ATSC, "480i"/"480p" ....


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (3) Raising all _CUT settings by 16 (RCUT now at 61) results in a small minus-red shift in overall color, even though grayscale still seems fairly linear. Thus there appears to be a nonlinearity in the red channel near the top of its range, maybe in other colors......
> 
> 
> I sense that there are nonlinearities or other anomalies at the range-extremes of some of these parameters, and that an adjustment nightmare might ensue. (See #3, above.) Sony's own chart numbers uniformly stay away from those extremes. I think I will keep my settings near the center of each range, since nothing forces me to do otherwise, and the incremental changes track so well that one can experiment fairly intuitively.



What I'm wondering is, if this non-linearity in color could #1). Be present to some small extent without going into the extreme upper or lower ranges, and, 2). if it be used in a benefical way in some circumstances, and 3). if anything similar happens with _DRV. Especially as I may have reason to experiment a bit with it, which is also why I was interested in RWhetmore's observations. I just have not had the time yet, to do so.


For example - I think I've arrived at the best "relationship" I can find with the following RDRV~BCUT settings, as related to Greyscale linearity and CT. The ONLY problem is, no matter what I do to try to "tweak" these farther, I cannot seem to get rid of what I *perceive* as a very, very slight overall "greenishness" to the greyscale without causing a "worse" problem linearity wise(+red or +blue, -red or -blue/etc/et) or CT wise(too "cool" or too "warm"), etc/etc.


RDRV~BCUT = 32-18-8-22-17-14


As if it was very, very slightly +green overall, and I needed RDRV~BCUT to "work" on a scale from 1-100 instead of 0-63, with, in other words, smaller "increments" for each value. Or, I find myself wishing I could try something along the lines of the following :


RDRV~BCUT = 32-17.75-8.3-22.25-16.85-14.25


If it would even be worthwhile, I just wonder which "way" I should go when I start experimenting, Up or down, and whether I should try to see if I can make improvements increasing/decreasing the _DRV's(and adjusting Pic slider accordingly per using my Camera's Light meter reference for current preferred brightness levels), first, or start with the _CUT's and adjustment of SBRT as necessary. As noted before, I can't go too much lower, with the DRV's especially, and I'd prefer keeping BDRV above "5" for reasons mentioned earlier, which would only allow for a decrease of "3" for each _DRV value. That would also be in the "extreme" lower range for BDRV, which I'd also like to avoid as well for the reasons you mention ...


In any case, I'm Hoping that perhaps I can find something that will get rid of that bit of extra "greenishness" throughout greyscale(and although it seems near perfect, there may be some room for some very slight improvement in greyscale linearity as well), realizing that it might still get quite confusing as, if say, I raise the _CUT values by say, "10", in order to see if it is useful or not, additional individual adjustment of RCUT/GCUT/BCUT may be(I'm guessing likely WILL be) in order.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The ONLY problem is, no matter what I do to try to "tweak" these farther, I cannot seem to get rid of what I *perceive* as a very, very slight overall "greenishness" to the greyscale without causing a "worse" problem linearity wise(+red or +blue, -red or -blue/etc/et) or CT wise(too "cool" or too "warm"), etc/etc. . . . As if it was very, very slightly +green overall, and I needed RDRV~BCUT to "work" on a scale from 1-100 instead of 0-63, with, in other words, smaller "increments" for each value.



I have thought for quite a while that there was an intractable greenishness about the mid-tones. I thought that I had white right and that I had adjusted the "black" end correctly. But here's where an accurate spectrophotometer would be a godsend! I have come to the conclusion that my perception of my "white" based on bright patches in b/w test patterns is not correct. I have been "tuning" the grays and somehow allowing the very brightest tone to be a bit different, probably slightly red. Then when I look at an integrated picture of all b/w tones, something is really "off." Usually greenish, or yellowish-green. Very annoying.


But, having pulled no special tricks at all, I have cured the "greenies" completely. It now seems that my ratio of RCUT to the other colors was much too low. Here I was, tweaking _DRV by one notch at a time to eliminate the slightest trace of off-color, and what I was really observing overall were the mid tones: they're the ones that gave me the color perception for b/w patterns and real b/w images. So I impulsively made some big changes in _CUT for blue and green -- and something magic happened! I stumbled on a nearly perfect grayscale. True, my _DRV was still a little cool, but everything matched in color. No greenies! So I tweaked _DRV by -2 red and +1 blue (good color-temp increments) a couple of times and got a white that was just perfect on real color video material. Watched an evening of TV, really satidfied with the neutral whites. Then I killed color with the Color slider, and . . . no greenies! Just really impressive b/w.


So I am current running _DRV and _CUT settings of 45-25-23 -- 46-18-22. (The old settings, normalized for the above red: 45-30-26 -- 46-27-25.) If I had a color-temp (CT) meter that was accurate over a wide range of brightnesses, I would use it in an instant to linearize the grayscale: (a) measure the white CT I have arrived at, according to my eyes and preferences; then (b) duplicate that same CT down the brightness range. One could set up the Warm and Cool offsets to give three different choices, obviously.


***********

Now . . . a new theoretical question: A perfect video driver circuit would allow you to set the _CUT values so all three color guns would start illuminating the screen at once, say at a 0 IRE (black). So why would that setting ever need to be changed? In this perfect processing environment, the video-signal drive would begin at that zero (colorless) "pivot" point, scaling each of the three colors to match their screen-phosphor requirements, so that IRE 100 (or 100% white) would be just a perfect white CT. If the color guns resemble each other in turn-on characteristics, only _DRV would have to be adjusted to alter the CT of white and gray. As the video signal increases from 0 to 5 to 10 IRE, the three drive signals would still be in perfect proportion, and even shadows would be okay. In a less perfect world, _CUT would be only for eliminating small anomalies in the way the particular CRT works.


Theoretically, this could be the way these settings are processed internally in our DA-4 TVs. Are they? Well, I'm not sure. My experience with most CRT displays has been that the "pivot" point for the three video-drive curves is below black, and so offset and drive interact -- you have to tweak both, going back and forth. But that doesn't mean that a sophisticated signal-processing system as we have in our TVs has to do it that way. It would be a pleasure to discover that _DRV and _CUT don't really interact. I've been suspecting that they interact a lot less than I have assumed -- and so I will do some experiments now to see if I can nail this down.


ADDENDUM: See results of test six messages down. Above description is wishful thinking!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> . . . I needed RDRV~BCUT to "work" on a scale from 1-100 instead of 0-63, with, in other words, smaller "increments" for each value.



In my opinion, the _CUT increments are plenty small enough. I can't imagine wanting more sensitivity in the _CUT adjustments.


----------



## GlenC

Non-linearity in the CRT guns, phosphor and electronic circuits and components is a good example of the benefit of being able to measure grayscale at all points. Cuts and Drives interact with each other, using various combinations that produce a uniform grayscale. Making adjustments to compensate for all the non-linearity in the combined circuits is in part a function of a calibration. If the gamma curve is off, sometimes adjusting cuts, drives, brightness and contrast can make improvements. These circuits are all interrelated and cannot all function with the same linearity throughout their range. Some settings will be better than others. One could spend a lot of time, with test equipment, setting grayscale. It is common for me to go back and forth between cuts and drives 5 to 10 times, then measure the grayscale in 10 IRE steps then repeat the cuts and drives again a few times to achieve a flat grayscale. While doing this, checking to see that the gamma curve is close to 2.2 for each step and overall.


Do you need to do it this way? NO, but it makes things easy when you know it is right.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Non-linearity in the CRT guns, phosphor and electronic circuits and components is a good example of the benefit of being able to measure grayscale at all points. Cuts and Drives interact with each other, using various combinations that produce a uniform grayscale. Making adjustments to compensate for all the non-linearity in the combined circuits is in part a function of a calibration. If the gamma curve is off, sometimes adjusting cuts, drives, brightness and contrast can make improvements.



Isn't that what we've been saying all along? Glad you agree.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW, I'm not positive, and can't say for sure yet(and may never be able to), and the following seems to contridict and earlier comment of yours on this .... But, at this point, on my set at least, I do believe the QM PATN white box window pattern(#3? or thearabouts in each "series" of 1080i/480i/480p/720p ATSC patterns) seems to be at or close to a repressentation of 100IRE "white", as I believe is the full "white screen"/field ~#5 in each "series" of patterns(well, other than any ABL effects that might be involved) ... I can say the somewhat "white" full screen patterns at the end of the series(#15~19 or so?) are definitely NOT representation of 100IRE/white.



All you say is true. It was my mistake underestimating the brightness of pattern #3. I had examined it in 1080i mode, and had measured it as lower than expected, compared to #23. But on my 4:3 TV, the 1080i patterns 1-20 are presented full screen, not 16:9. When I forced proper 16:9 mode by setting 2170P-4/IDSW to a 16:9 aspect ratio (=3, I think), the brightness was what I expected (more white lines per inch, duh!). And, yes, the beam-current limiter kicks in for those full-white screens, lowering the brightness by about half at what would be 30-35 ft-L.


Those small white patches are dead-center, however, and don't represent the average or perceived brightness of the screen, due to the CRT's hot-spot effect. I prefer one that is off-center, such as the grayscale + pluge on DVE or a corner of the larger patch on AVIA.


----------



## jjt667




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MechanicalMan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Use the black and white Avia screens to help you set DRV and CUT. If you think whites are too bright, you probably need to lower the picture setting. I think the best way to set white level on this TV is to just experiement during normal viewing until you find the picture setting that you are happiest with.



Thanks mechanical Man for the usefull info I greatly appreciate the time you take to answer my questions.


I have been fooling around and have gotten the picture pretty good by just flipping channels and getting it to where it is comfortable to watch, I will try what you recommend when my avia disc comes.


thanks


jjtv


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In this perfect processing environment, the video-signal drive would begin at that zero (colorless) "pivot" point, scaling each of the three colors to match their screen-phosphor requirements, so that IRE 100 (or 100% white) would be just a perfect white CT. If the color guns resemble each other in turn-on characteristics, only _DRV would have to be adjusted to alter the CT of white and gray. I've been suspecting that they interact a lot less than I have assumed -- and so I will do some experiments now to see if I can nail this down.



Did that test in a very dark room last evening. No, the "perfect processing environment" isn't to be found in our Sony DA-4 TVs. So sad. The cutoff and drive settings interact heavily, and if you adjust _DRV to get a diferent color-temp, you have to adjust _CUT as well to keep grayscale aligned. End of short-lived fantasy!


The good news: For small changes, at least, Sony seems to have scaled the two _DRV and _CUT groups so that they seem to track fairly well. It's very hard to test for large color changes because the eye gets distracted by the appearance of obvious color, but for small changes, such as a small warm CT change (+2 red, -1 blue), you can change the _DRV and _CUT by the same amount, and come out fine. Hence my original (and still reasonable) recommendation to, for example, set Warm offsets at, say, 33-31-30 -- 33-31-30, and Cool at 29-31-32 -- 29-31-32. I presume reader-experimenters will report on any refinements on this, and I will, too.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (2) The black-level increase observed by raising all _CUT settings by 16 is canceled by reducing SBRT by 4, very closely. Thus, there is approximately a 4:1 ratio between clicks of an overall _CUT change and a compensatory change in SBRT.



Ken,


I am wondering how you tested for this? Raising the _CUT settings to where I have them now had zero effect on SBRT/Brightness using the AVIA black level test pattern on my HD-A1 (1080i). Is there a logical explanation for this? It seems very inconsistent with your results, which concern me.


I'm also curious if you found the effect on washout equal with this 4:1 ratio? In other words, does raising _CUT settings by 4, equal the same amount of image "washout" as raising SBRT by 1?


Furthermore, did you find the increase in shadow detail also to be 4:1??? Just curious.


Finally, are you using a 1080i signal when running your test patterns???



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As for RWetmore's observation of better shadow detail with his settings so high or with some _CUT and _DRV settings "matching," I think there may be another explanation for that. I'll post a separate opinion. For my part, I am going to avoid those extremes.



I'm curious why my set appears to look so good with the guidelines I'm following. I'm sensing, however, that you are not going to agree.


----------



## Nitewatchman

I tried the following test last night in order to do good(hopefully) A/B comparisons :


I set up the following for several needed inputs with *identically* configured Pic modes(per the info on "customizing pic modes" earlier in this thread), and with the aid of "Mode memory:On" setting. Then, I did A/B comparisions between the two "pic modes" using various 1080i greyscale test patterns from MS, as well as "video black" from a "non-present" 1080i signal via ATSC internal tuner. I also compared a bit with real programming material --- but with color slider at "31" as well as "0" -- specifically, the episode of "NOVA" about the Concorde running on PBS HD channel last night, and HD Letterman/HD tonight show) :


RDRV~BCUT set at my current, preferred settings : 32-18-8-23-17-14


Cool offset RDOF~BCOF = 31-31-31-40-40-40


Relevant Pic mode # 1("Vivid" pic mode for reference) settings :


brightness slider=31

Color Temp= Neutral


Relevant Pic mode #2("standard" pic mode for reference) settings:


Brightness Slider=28 = Note - this was set as closely as possible to match Black level in Pic Mode #1 - which was a bit difficult to set precisely as Gamma apparently was effected by this experiment as well. For instance, 29 also seemed close to being the right value.


Color Temp=COOL


NOTE - EVERYTHING else was set the same for either pic mode(including all relevant SM settings) except the above settings. Also note, that when looking at test patterns and "video black", Color Slider=0 for both pic modes. Also, note of course, With both "customized" pic modes set with brightness slider=31, and "color temp" neutral(or one pic mode set with "neutral" and the other at "cool" with RDOF~BCOF 31-31-31-31-31-31 ) -- The EXACT same results appear on screen for either pic mode when switching between them. Easy to see, as these two are right "next" to each other when you press the button on the remote.


Results I noticed, or seemingly "perceived" at least :


I did not look closely enough at changes in Greyscale linearity to report confidently, or accurately about it in detail. I can report :


#1). With a video black signal and PIC mode 1, a neutral grey(s) resulted throughout brightness slider range ~35~63. With Pic Mode #2 in comparsion to pic #1, while it appeared linear in color while raising brightness slider, it was perhaps "sort of aqua-marine greenish-bluish - what color is it really"?


#2). Although I didn't spend much time looking at the brighter areas in test patterns, I believe I saw a change in higher IRE's as well. Can't help but notice it when looking at a white concorde flying through a sky with bright clouds, or, higher IRE's in a greyscale step pattern while comparing between the two pic modes. Along the lines "color" wise of what I noted in above paragraph concerning Pic mode #2/lower brightness levels and the "greenish-bluish "what color is it?" deal, although not seemingly as significant as with lower IRE's, as you might expect ... In fact, if this makes sense -- as it might sound contrictdory to that but it isn't : the greyscale "linearity" seemed to "track" quite well between Pic mode #1+2 - which I believe is much as Ken experienced with it going minus red, overall when he raised all _CUT significantly. I just was not expecting quite as much change as I seemed to have noticed by raising it by 8, in my case resulting in more "mid-range" values.


#3). Also, apparently, Gamma changed as well, which made it somewhat difficult to precisely detirmine the matching brightness slider setting for Pic Mode #2. Pic Mode #2 apparently had higher gamma(slightly more "washed out") than Pic mode #1.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am wondering how you tested for [the _CUT/SBRT ratio]? Raising the _CUT settings to where I have them now had zero effect on SBRT/Brightness using the AVIA black level test pattern on my HD-A1 (1080i).



I put up a grayscale + pluge pattern from AVIA and froze it. There is a background and two faint dark bars on the left side of the gray patches. Their absolute and relative visibility was how I restored correct black level by lowering SBRT after raising the _CUT settings. The grayscale patches showed me that there was a color shift.


> Quote:
> I'm also curious if you found the effect on washout equal with this 4:1 ratio? In other words, does raising _CUT settings by 4, equal the same amount of image "washout" as raising SBRT by 1?



I tried to be sensitive to the "shadow" contrast as I ran these tests, and to the apparent brightness ratios of the gray patches. The apparent brightness differences among the two bars and background did not seem to change after the _CUT +16 plus SBRT -4. The two dark bars were still equally distinct from each other and from the background, no more or less so than before the adjustment, and also when I went back instantly with 0-Enter on the remote.


> Quote:
> Furthermore, did you find the increase in shadow detail also to be 4:1??? Just curious.



I consider shadow "detail" to be a contrast factor, and so I don't understand how a ratio can apply without careful photometric measurement. I observe: Are the shadowed items distinct from each other? Are the folds in the dark fabric visible? Etc. If you were graphing this shadow area, screen brightness vs. video voltage, there would be a "toe" or slight tapering right at black, and how drawn-out this "toe" is determines how snappy the shadows look. (Less toe = higher slope = more, snappier detail, and more-distinct blacks.)


> Quote:
> Finally, are you using a 1080i signal when running your test patterns???



No, I generally ignore upscaling. I'm letting my Panasonic S97 feed the TV with component 480i for these tests thru input V5. I could also use HDMI/480p with similar results. I have the two inputs tuned to look nearly identical.


> Quote:
> I'm curious why my set appears to look so good with the guidelines I'm following. I'm sensing, however, that you are not going to agree.



No, don't get me wrong. I don't dispute your observations and pleasure at the results, although you run the risk of confirming your optimistic expectations when you don't run single-blind tests or some kind of objective measurements. I will propose an alternate explanation, that's all. And I have to say, I sincerely doubt that the internal programming of the two completely unrelated offset and drive parameters makes for any magic results when the numbers happen to agree on, say, green. That really could be an artifact of your expectations. (Not a severe criticism, BTW! I've been the victim of this during the running of audio-listening tests when I was in manufacturing in that rarified market.)


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I put up a grayscale + pluge pattern from AVIA and froze it. There is a background and two faint dark bars on the left side of the gray patches. Their absolute and relative visibility was how I restored correct black level by lowering SBRT after raising the _CUT settings. The grayscale patches showed me that there was a color shift.



This is essentially what I did. I'm still puzzled as to why I don't get even similar results??? There must be a reason.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I tried to be sensitive to the "shadow" contrast as I ran these tests, and to the apparent brightness ratios of the gray patches. The apparent brightness differences among the two bars and background did not seem to change after the _CUT +16 plus SBRT -4. The two dark bars were still equally distinct from each other and from the background, no more or less so than before the adjustment, and also when I went back instantly with 0-Enter on the remote.



Hmmmm. Did you sample any 1080i program material or upconverted 1080i DVDs to see if the results materialized with practical viewing as the test patterns indicated??? If so, did the effect on washout seem equal to your eyes?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I consider shadow "detail" to be a contrast factor, and so I don't understand how a ratio can apply without careful photometric measurement. I observe: Are the shadowed items distinct from each other? Are the folds in the dark fabric visible? Etc. If you were graphing this shadow area, screen brightness vs. video voltage, there would be a "toe" or slight tapering right at black, and how drawn-out this "toe" is determines how snappy the shadows look. (Less toe = higher slope = more, snappier detail, and more-distinct blacks.)



What I mean by shadow detail is the part of the picture than can be "lost as black" when the brightness is set too low or gamma set too high.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No, I generally ignore upscaling. I'm letting my Panasonic S97 feed the TV with component 480i for these tests thru input V5. I could also use HDMI/480p with similar results. I have the two inputs tuned to look nearly identical.



Can you run some quick tests using 1080i to see if you get similar results? I always thought it makes the most sense to run these patterns with the set's native resolution, no? I'm always watching 1080i HD programming, 1080i HD-DVD, or 1080i upconverted DVDs, which is why I felt it made the most sense to calibrate using this resolution.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No, don't get me wrong. I don't dispute your observations and pleasure at the results, although you run the risk of confirming your optimistic expectations when you don't run single-blind tests or some kind of objective measurements. I will propose an alternate explanation, that's all. And I have to say, I sincerely doubt that the internal programming of the two completely unrelated offset and drive parameters makes for any magic results when the numbers happen to agree on, say, green. That really could be an artifact of your expectations. (Not a severe criticism, BTW! I've been the victim of this during the running of audio-listening tests when I was in manufacturing in that rarified market.)



Perhaps your right, but I'm still sensing there is a chance we are doing something a little different and not quite comparing an equal result.


----------



## JoeKing

hi, just have to give you guys props! I see more depth in my image after raising my CUTS and DRIVES to their highest values while still attempting to get a level grey scale. However, there is a slight lack of red color as mentioned... I do not trust my eye and I know that if I kept my CUT or DRIVE settings so that they are not default or not professionally calibrated, I will constantly second guess the sets color. Anyhow, here are my new settings...


RDRV = 32 to 63

GDRV = 27 to 49

BDRV = 26 to 44

RCUT = 32 to 61

GCUT = 20 to 43

BCUT = 32 to 60

SBRT = 28 to 29

SBOF = 7 to 4

LRGB = 4 to 1


thx again for such great info guys


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JoeKing* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hi, just have to give you guys props! I see more depth in my image after raising my CUTS and DRIVES to their highest values while still attempting to get a level grey scale. However, there is a slight lack of red color as mentioned... I do not trust my eye and I know that if I kept my CUT or DRIVE settings so that they are not default or not professionally calibrated, I will constantly second guess the sets color. Anyhow, here are my new settings...
> 
> 
> RDRV = 32 to 63
> 
> GDRV = 27 to 49
> 
> BDRV = 26 to 44
> 
> RCUT = 32 to 61
> 
> GCUT = 20 to 43
> 
> BCUT = 32 to 60
> 
> SBRT = 28 to 29
> 
> SBOF = 7 to 4
> 
> LRGB = 4 to 1
> 
> 
> thx again for such great info guys



Joe,


It's nice to see someone else is seeing the increased depth; however, your green and blue settings seem way too high for anywhere near an accurate greyscale.


Try something more in this range:


RDRV = 60-63

GDRV = 30-35

BDRV = 30-35

RCUT = 60-63

GCUT = 30-35

BCUT = 30-35


I'm using:


RDRV = 63

GDRV = 32

BDRV = 35

RCUT = 63

GCUT = 33

BCUT = 36


If you don't have a calibration disc, you can use the contrast check with any DVD that has the THX Optimizer. Pure white is displayed in the upper left and lower right of the contrast test pattern.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Tried some more experiments last night via comparing the pic modes and using the offsets in the same manner I noted in last post, but this time, I :


A). First Raised both _DOF/_COF for "cool" offset so that the "equivilent" RDRV was ~ 45. (RDOF~BCOF=44-44-44-44-44-44, or +13 for each from RDRV~BCUT values. Thought I'd try this, since it would result in "mid-range" average for the "equivilent" RDRV~BCUT values, even though it also resulted in relativiely low "PIC" slider settings. Adjusted Pic slider and brigtness slider for my "pic mode #2" new "cool offset" values. Observed what occured, including concerning greyscale as noted farther below.


B). Using the Cool offset, and values as noted in (A) as a "base" to work from, I attempted to then adjust RDOF~BCOF to first "match" greyscale as closely as possible, and/or "improve upon my "Pic mode #1 with "neutral"(RDRV~BCUT) settings. Note that I did not spend as much time on this as it probably deserves, however I believe I spent enough time to get a "good enough" idea, as noted farther below.


Concerning A), and Pic Mode #2 comparision to Pic mode #1 -- I noticed that, unlike when I just raised the _COF(equivilent to _CUT values) as described in last post -- this time If I needed to change the "brightness" slider at all(using the Pluge+Grey pattern from DVE, or the same(or similar pattern from MS) in the same manner as Ken noted in his last post), It was(suprisingly I thought) "UP" a click or two. Although, again it was difficult to say, given the (again) apparent change in gamma which also occured. Note that I had to Lower PIC slider by about 6~8 - Which resulted in Pic slider 15~17 for pic mode #2 vs. Pic slider="23" for my preferred screen brightness level for pic mode 1. Note that I only used my "eyes" to balance white level between pic mode #1 and 2, and I did not take the time to compare between the two and adjust PIC slider setting for Pic mode #2 by using the Canon Ftb's light meter as compartor for the most accurate results.


Note that the greyscale which resulted from (A). was Very much heavily "Pinkish" throughout brightness range. I did not take the time to look closely at the "linearity" of it.


Concerning (B) -- I did not meet with success concerning improving upon my current values for "neutral" - but I may not have spent "enough" time on it -- However, oddly enough I noticed that what I ended up with(which in any case would be "close" to what I'd need I'd think but with a little further tweaking perhaps required) would generally equate to being close to the same values as "neutral" for the GCUT+BCUT, although _RCUT seemed to still need to be up at 44(which would allow for the same value for RDRV and RCUT(45) ! -- Update to that - Oops! That was a little wrong! --- Looking at it a little more, settings equivilent to RDRV~BCUT= 46-31--20-46-27-23 seem very "close" to my currently preferred neutral settings, but with pic slider reduced by about 7, and Brightness slider redueced by about 1 (gamma still appears slightly different). In the lower, lower mid brightness range, while it produces in general very neutral grey, It's a little on the "red" side perhaps, compared to a little on the "green" side with my currently preferred neutral settings(which may be desireable), but also perhaps a tad bit on the cooler side CT wise ... Perhaps I might want to try the same general method, but starting from a point with RDRV at about "40" or "42" ....


At this point, on my particular set I'm skeptical that I'll be able to "improve" my greyscale by using a significantly different "range" for my RDRV~BCUT values than my current values of 32-18-8-23-17-14. (note that the Factory settings for Warm offset would(I believe) equate to 32-17-9-32-17-5). I wonder if mainly, regarding the folks who are apparently getting some "different" results with this sort of thing, that we are just seeing differences in non-linearity in the circuits for different individual sets, or perhaps in some cases differences in set "models" or manufacturing differences, or something along those lines.


And, the experiments last night helped me to see the RDRV~BCUT values I'm currently using *do* seem to be producing excellent greyscale, including linearity wise, but it may be perhaps a slight bit "cool" CT. And, apparently "in-range" preferred Gamma as well. I believe somewhere in the range of 2.20~2.36 or so from what I can tell by eye looking at the charts I've looked at, although I haven't checked it closely since my latest changes to RDRV~BCUT. And, It looks like the very slight "greenies" I referred to earlier *may* not really be there, and may be more a "figment" of something I thought I saw, as even light(or dark) tones in B*W content looks *very good* and doesn't seem to suffer from "greenies", or from +Red or +Blue/etc ....


By the way, my experiments last night did also seem to suggest that it does look like it would be fairly easily for me to redefine greyscale for a different preferred LOWER Picutre slider setting without causing any problems, generally by raising _DRV settings by the same amount and then making small adjustments.


Given a change of +13 for all _DRV resulted in ~ -7 for pic slider setting, and given it's necessary for ****=0 for some inputs such as 480i DRC -- I don't see how lowering the _DRV's would be desirable in order to raise my picture slider setting to a mid-point "31" for preferred screen brightness, given that this would likely result in BDRV setting of "0" or less in my case ... Only way I could perhaps accomplish that would be if I lower "SPIO" from it's factory "10" value, but as mentioned before, I'm a bit wary of doing that given the SM code listing chart says that should be adjusted with test equipment, as I'm not sure what all it might effect. I have tried it, and it looked to me that changing SPIO might do something a little "different" than adjusting the "picture slider, but I could be wrong, It's so difficult(and unwise) to depend upon your "eyes" when looking for such differences - I certianly wish I knew what such differences might be, however. Also, Given that my Black level adjustments are already "mid-range"(SBRT=28, 2170P-3 SBOF 1~5, Brightness slider=31), and Gamma that results from current settings seems desireable, I see no need to adjust _CUT to change that.


----------



## KenTech

This morning I ran more experiments investigating just one simple question: what is the effect of large changes in _DRV on near-black screen brightness. And at this point I have to fly the yellow flag of Unintended Consequences. Underneath these nice, simple numbers we change digitally are analog systems trying hard to cope with the problems of getting a CRT's guns to fire so that the colors balance at all brightnesses. In all cases of CRTs attempting to attain a neutral white of, say, 6500K, the red gun has the most work to do because that phosphor is the least sensitive to the beam. So any CRT monitor has to push the red gun much harder, as it were. Further, there are hidden nonlinearities we can't control -- only work around. Okay, that said . . .


I put up AVIA's "black bars" + gray steps again and also used the next pattern, black bars alone -- very valuable, it turns out. This time, I was in a fairly dark room.


(1) There is an unexpected, paradoxical effect of changing _DRV. When I reduced my RDRV from 45 to 0 on the black bars alone (nothing bright on-screen), a red glow appeared in the darkest areas, as if I had increased RCUT. Yikes! It happens with all three colors: Run that color's _DRV down to zero, and _CUT is somehow raised! Is this just a shifting of the cutoff point, or is it a black contamination? An alteration of the video-response curve?


(2) I compared over and over again two situations: (a) RDRV raised 18 notches to 63 and other colors raised to get roughly the same white CT as before. (They require only about 10 notches.) Reduced Picture about 5 points to cancel the extra white intensity. And (b) used my standard settings and normal Picture. On both, I used SBRT to vary black level up and down on the black-bars pattern, trying to see where the screen began glowing overall and when the bars each became visible.

_Tentative result:_ As SBRT is increased from a jet-black screen, there seems to be more "black glow" appearing before the bars are clearly visible with the standard settings (b). With the elevated _DRVs of (a), the bars become visible against what appears to be a blacker background. This would support *RWetmore*'s assertion of "blacker blacks," etc. and better shadow detail. This seems like a desirable situation, no?


But is there a cost to this? There are new questions to be answered, now. What is the effect on bright-area contrast? Is the red gun/amplifier starting to "top out" as it is cranked so high? Do these high _DRV settings result in blocked or washed-out highlights (never a problem with this TV!) or a cyan color shift from, say, 70% to 100% white? It's the Unintended Consequences monster, and we have to make sure we aren't concentrating on one attractive benefit (better shadows and blacks) and ignoring a decrease in quality elsewhere.


So . . . it really _does_ appear that raising _DRV somehow suppresses the "toe" region of the overall video-response curve. It looks superficially like a _lowering_ of _CUT, but it may, in fact, be a suppression of a background glow, a glow that compromises the black level. Yikes, are we getting obsessive about this, or what?


To be continued (obviously) . . .


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Underneath these nice, simple numbers we change digitally are analog systems trying hard to cope with the problems of getting a CRT's guns to fire so that the colors balance at all brightnesses.



Glad to see you are starting to get the picture. BTW, I can get a pretty flat grayscale form 10 IRE to 100 IRE for 480i/p, 720p and 1080i in a couple hours.


There is a reason tri-stimulus color analyzers exist and why most calibrators use them.


You haven't researched G-2 voltages yet?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW, I can get a pretty flat grayscale form 10 IRE to 100 IRE for 480i/p, 720p and 1080i in a couple hours.
> 
> 
> There is a reason tri-stimulus color analyzers exist and why most calibrators use them.
> 
> 
> You haven't researched G-2 voltages yet?



And this contributes to this DIY forum how, exactly?


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And this contributes to this DIY forum how, exactly?



Just a reality check, some may be interested to know you have been tweaking your TV for over a year now and you still don't have the gray scale done.........


----------



## Nitewatchman

Very sad ...... Oh, well, best just to ignore such nonsense, I suppose .....


-------------



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken Tech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (1) There is an unexpected, paradoxical effect of changing _DRV. When I reduced my RDRV from 45 to 0 on the black bars alone (nothing bright on-screen), a red glow appeared in the darkest areas, as if I had increased RCUT. Yikes! It happens with all three colors: Run that color's _DRV down to zero, and _CUT is somehow raised!



I updated my last post a bit, you may not have seen it. I think you may find the below interesting.


I found The two different sets of settings listed farther below produce quite (but not quite "exactly the same") similar results (with different White level/black level settings for each "set" of settings of course).


Both of the below settings produce quite linear greyscale throughout all levels of brightness, but CT doesn't quite track between the two "perfectly". Especially note what I had to do(substanitally more +RCUT) for "RCUT" to make these as "similar" as possible. Also note I didn't spend a lot of time trying to get it to match perfectly, as I was only doing this for experimental reasons :


RDRV~BCUT - 32-18-8-23-17-14


RDRV~BCUT - 46-31-20-46-27-23


Interesting how those "track" - (*disclaimer and NOTE for *trolls on this thread* these are NOT meant to be "exact" representation of *anything*! ) .... Some of this must be due to some non-linearity in the "circuits" so to speak, that is probably particular to my set, and some of it is due to me not taking the time to *tweak* to perfection for most similarity between the two -- but, I expect that does not explain it *all* by any means :


RDRV = +14

GDRV = +13

BDRV = +12
*RCUT = +23*

GCUT = +10

BCUT =+9


Note: I did, perhaps have the greyscale matching "overall" between the two a little more closely with RDRV~BCUT = 44-31-22-44-27-25, (+12, +13, +14, +21, +10, +9 )except for CT, which was seemingly a bit cooler with Set(set up with pic mode #2 per my earlier post(s) ... So, I raised RDRV/RCUT a couple of notches, and lowered BDRV/BCUT the same, and contrary to my update on this in last post -- I noticed under dark room conditions(per comparisons via the differently set up "pic modes" as noted in earlier posts) that this "2nd pic mode"(with this set up via "cool" offset), its now, apparently just a bit WARMER CT wise than Pic mode #1/neutral(1st set of settings noted above) ...


So, FWIW and in case it is of any interest, I expect it is possible this may be a slightly different example, of the same issue you noticed+described from your experiment this morning ...


----------



## RWetmore

Ken,


I haven't noticed any washed out highs or any significant color shifts from my high DRV/CUT settings. Can we objectively test for this? I also didn't notice any any loss of clarity or bleeding highs as a result either. I did have to back off the regular contrast or "Picture" setting though, but that seemed to be it.


Did you have a chance to try getting similar results by running the test patterns via 1080i instead of 480p or i? I'm still quite perplexed why raising the CUT and DRV settings up high didn't affect my SBRT levels at all on my set?? I am using the AVIA black bars only pattern in a dark room for my tests.


I sense that essentially what is happening is that somehow with high DRV and CUT settings there is a significant net shadow detail increase that is somehow not tied to the "washout" effect of raising SBRT. Not only does this increase shadow detail without increasing washout, but it also allows SBRT to be set at its lowest point of accuracy according the test pattern. The net result is deeper blacks and better shadow detail, which of course translates into increased depth and realism of the picture.


----------



## KenTech

This evening I went for broke and tried RWetmore's idea of running _DRVs up to max, balancing out the grayscale, and living with it for a while -- well, at least half an evening.


Sorry to say, I don't like it. I couldn't even-up the grayscale for love nor money! When I got highlights just right and shadows to match, I had a cyanish mid-tone coloration that wouldn't go away. When I tried to tweak RCUT to experiment with the dark end of the range, I found that one notch increase didn't have nearly the effect I expected. I did the best I could with grayscale and watched programs during the evening, but I noticed (a) no perceptible improvement in blacks or shadows -- or at least none that I was willing to trade for (b) "off" colors in the mid-tones, confirmed when I turned Color all the way down. Further tweaking didn't help: If I got rid of the lower-mid-gray green/cyan, the shadows got too red or magenta. Bottom line : Cranking the _DRVs up on my set gave me a much "lumpier" grayscale, with errors I couldn't correct. I felt like I was running afoul of built-in limitations.


All we can adjust are the top and bottom ends of the video-response curve. If the middle is screwed up (mid-grays), there's no separate adjustment, except for a very coarse 1-notch gamma tweak for one or two colors. And that's an act of desperation!


So, back to my usual settings, centering on 30-ish. I may go the other direction a bit to see what happens. But tonight the grays snapped right into place when I restored the old settings. End of _that_ experiment for me!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Did you have a chance to try getting similar results by running the test patterns via 1080i instead of 480p or i?



No, and I won't bother with that test. The color adjustments we are tinkering with occur long after the input video is converted to the video-display mode of choice. If you are getting differential color effects (with Color at normal) going from, say, V5 to HDMI or HDMI/480p to HDMI/1080i, there are specific adjustments for much of that in a different control group, 2170P-1. See the chart I published in post #892 for clarification. With Color turned down all the way, the scan rates shouldn't matter a whit.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This evening I went for broke and tried RWetmore's idea of running _DRVs up to max, balancing out the grayscale, and living with it for a while -- well, at least half an evening.



Did you also equally crank up the _CUTs? The "effect" only works if you do both.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry to say, I don't like it. I couldn't even-up the grayscale for love nor money! When I got highlights just right and shadows to match, I had a cyanish mid-tone coloration that wouldn't go away. When I tried to tweak RCUT to experiment with the dark end of the range, I found that one notch increase didn't have nearly the effect I expected. I did the best I could with grayscale and watched programs during the evening, but I noticed (a) no perceptible improvement in blacks or shadows -- or at least none that I was willing to trade for (b) "off" colors in the mid-tones, confirmed when I turned Color all the way down. Further tweaking didn't help: If I got rid of the lower-mid-gray green/cyan, the shadows got too red or magenta. Bottom line : Cranking the _DRVs up on my set gave me a much "lumpier" grayscale, with errors I couldn't correct. I felt like I was running afoul of built-in limitations.



Hmmmmm. On my set, I don't seem to have any off mid-tone coloration, or I at least don't see any. It did take me days to find an acceptable greyscale though. Also, are you watching 1080i material? The effect on shadow detail I got isn't the slightest bit subtle. The difference is night and day. I was previously using _DRV and _CUT settings a little lower than you, which may be a factor in my seeing such a big difference, but with you raising yours 10+ each, it seems weird you are not getting any material increase in shadow detail.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No, and I won't bother with that test. The color adjustments we are tinkering with occur long after the input video is converted to the video-display mode of choice. If you are getting differential color effects (with Color at normal) going from, say, V5 to HDMI or HDMI/480p to HDMI/1080i, there are specific adjustments for much of that in a different control group, 2170P-1. See the chart I published in post #892 for clarification. With Color turned down all the way, the scan rates shouldn't matter a whit.



My concern isn't color, but black level. A 1080i signal on these sets produces a much deeper black level than 480p - making it much harder to get shadow detail without washout. I'm concerned that the effects of high DRVs and CUTs would be significantly less with 480p/i. I really think this may account for our inconsistent observations???


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On my set, I don't seem to have any off mid-tone coloration, or I at least don't see any. It did take me days to find an acceptable greyscale though. Also, are you watching 1080i material?



I don't get it. A faulty grayscale is _why_ I was seeing unauthentic mid-tone color. And I routinely watch 1080i broadcasts on PBS and other networks with great pleasure. I have separately tweaked the 2170P settings for 1080i ATSC/QAM so the picture has exactly the same range as a reference from DVD. My usual TV-watching may differ significantly from yours, making me less motivated to seek after "improved" shadow detail -- at what cost?


I don't watch 1080i upscaled from DVD, since that picture is inferior to 480p via the same HDMI connection and 480i via component. (The Sony's display of 480p is perfect. The S97 player's upsampling compromises textures, making it look too smooth, and I don't pay attention to the scan lines anyway on 480p.)


I have to say, I am thrilled by the blacks and shadow detail on this TV with my usual settings, and so I don't know what I am seeking and what it might cost. I now know that things get a little weird at the very high end of _DRV and I am reluctant to sacrifice a perfect grayscale for anything else.


Another day, I may try raising both _DRV and _CUT to see what happens. I'm still curious, but I so enjoy what I have with the usual settings.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Another day, I may try raising both _DRV and _CUT to see what happens. I'm still curious, but I so enjoy what I have with the usual settings.



By all means to compare what I have done, you ABSOLUTELY have to raise both equally. This goes for program viewing and the viewing of test patterns. Just raising the _DRVs or the _CUTs alone totally screws everything up. I know because I tried it many times.


Try following the general approach I outlined in this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post7904603 


At least if you do this, I know we will have followed the same procedure, which hopefully means we are more likely comparing a similar "effect." It will definately take some time to fine tune the greyscale, but if you do this, and then recalibrate SBRT to where you can just barely see the black bars in the black bars only pattern (in a dark room), I'll know we are comparing apples to apples. You may still not like the result though, which is fine.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> anyone else have any say




yes?


----------



## Nitewatchman

shorter verison of this post:


In short, I've ended up with RDRV~BCUT=43-27-16-42-26-20 . While I suppose it's possible there may be room for some "refinement", at this point, I can't imagine why, as it looks absolutely beautiful via tests with various test patterns and while watching *real* programming (HD and SD) since last night.


Does seem a little odd my Pic Slider has to be down around "19~20" for my preferred screen brightness level, but that doesn't really bother me any, especially as the same preferred screen brightness level(compared with light meter on Canon Ftb 35mm SLR camera) resulted with factory defaults mentioned below with a pic slider setting of around "23", a difference of only about 4 clicks on the slider. I haven't detirmined the exact SBRT setting yet, but looks like it will probably be 28, or possibly 27 for brightness slider=31. I've only looked at one gamma chart I have on MS (need to check the calibration DVD's), but at this point(and reading those charts "correctly" does seem a bit difficult for me) looks like gamma is at around 2.20~2.27.


So, on my particular KD34XBR960, per some of the below, there *does* seem to be something to setting RDRV~BCUT at mid-range(average 29, total=174) values vs. the "lower" than average settings equivilent to the warm factory offset(equivilent to RDRV~BCUT=32-17-9-32-17-5, whaich was average = 18.66/total 112).


-------------------------------------------


Longer, More version of this post follows, with more detailed info concerning my adjustments for greyscale, and with corrections and or refinement to values/etc. posted concerning my recent greyscale experiments as posted in my last couple of posts in this thread :


I've further refined my greyscale settings experiments per the experiments via comparisions of identically configured Picture modes other than, per pic mode used for the "experiments", making use of RDOF~BCOF (warm/cool) offsets along with the "color temp" user menu choice, and adjusting Brightness/Picture sliders in sepearate pic modes using "mode memory On", so I could keep the other pic mode for comparison with my usual settings (netural color temp, Pic/brightness slider settings as "usual"/etdc) as explained in more detail in earlier posts.


My main focus here was to see, if by either raising or lowering _DRV~_CUT("toghether" with the adjustments necessary) I could improve greyscale and achieve excellent greyscale linearity while at the same time, a preferred color temp without any particular "shade of overall" "weird" looking slight color aberrations occuring throughout brightness range. As, although I've gotten close to that, it has been quite difficult, and seemingly impossible to accomplish this on my set while staying in the same general range for _DRV~_CUT as the factory "warm offset" defaults.


First, off, since my last post, - even though it was VERY linear all the way from 0(or 7.5 IRE for NTSC if you want to get really technical) to 100 IRE -- I noticed via these comparisions to the settings mentioned below that it was quite apparent my previous RDRV~BCUT settings of 32-18-8-23-17-14, were not only on the "cool" side CT wise, it was also slightly -red and, to a lesser extent +blue(or +green a little as well), to the extent of causing a slight "aqua-greensish/bluish" overall color tone to the greyscale. So, because of that, the report I provided in last post which seemed to indicate a greater "difference" needed for +RCUT was erronous.


First, I tried starting by raising to the equivilent of "RDRV=45", and, without spending a lot of time on it, I came up with equivilent RDRV~BCUT = "47-31-20-46-30-23" (note: I erronously reported RDRV as "46" for these settings in earlier post). Having adjusted those fairly quickly for good greyscale linearity, This however resulted in a CT perceivably a bit "cooler" than the settings mentioned above, as well as it appeared, a bit +Blue and +red overall throughout brightness range. To the extent it didn't look promising, except I noticed I had gotten rid of that weird "aqua bluish/greenish" tint to things.


So, I then tried lowering the "equivilent of" RDRV a few "clicks", and adjusting the other _DRV/_CUT as necessary for CT and greyscale linearity throughout brightness range ... From this, I ended up with settings of 43-27-16-42-26-20. Although the method I used to do this was *NOT* to simply "lower" everything 4 clicks from the settings mentioned in last paragraph -- surprise, surprise, I just noticed when writing this post, as it turns out that is *exact* result. In short, with these settings, for *eureka* .. For whatever reason, something "magic" happened, in the sense that the results I have been looking for Greyscale wise all along FINALLY appeared on my screen ....


To me, when Greyscale(and black/white levels are set appropriately, Gamma in range of ~2.20 and and accurate color decoding is occuring) is set "just right", for lack of a better way to say it ... the result I get with real programming appears very "lifelike", or "photo-realistic" across the entire brightness range, and there is no, one apparent color of aberration(any one particular color "standing out" more than others) with Greyscale charts or B&W programming. Or, as another way to say it ... for example, you get the "perfect looking" CT, with Nice Warm whites, and "black blacks" and "pleasing" midtones of (generally) "neutral(but "lifelike looking" if that makes sense) greys in between.


--------------------------------------------------------------------


So, next, using RDRV~BCUT= 43-27-16-42-26-20 as "reference", I then endeavored to try to "match" the greyscale with an offset equivilent starting of for instance, "RDRV=32" as closely as possible with a Offset+different pic mode(different black/white level settings per pic/brightness sliders as necessary) for comparsion. Surprisingly, I was able to get much closer than what I had thought was possible before, but still not quite "close enough" per the below settings/info :


RDRV~BCUT = 32-18-8-30-17-11 - This is VERY close to matching overall, however, it results in an annoying "yellowishness", most noticed by my eyes at both higher and lower IRE's.


RDRV~BCUT = 32-17-7-28-17-13 - While this matches in lower brightness levels, extremely closely, mid-High brightness levels(especially High IRE's) look a little "cool", and also are "pinkish".



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Noticing that the biggest "change" needed to keep greyscale "close to the same" when "rasing the DRV/CUTS" was a change in RCUT -- I also tried several other settings, using RDRV= 34, 35 and 38 to start with. I didn't spend a lot of time on it(as it seemed unnecessary) but, I could come up with nothing "as good" as either my settings mentioned above starting with "RDRV=32", nor the settings starting with "RDRV=43". HOWEVER, I did notice the necessary larger, change in RCUT(as compared to other _DRV/_CUT settings) which was needed when going between settings starting with "RDRV=32" and "RDRV=43" was needed for these 3 settings in the mid~high 30's for "RDRV" as well. I can't explain at this point why I didn't notice this change between the settings starting with "RDRV=43" and "RDRV=47", other than to again point out, given that I had seen something I didn't like when I first moved the settings that "high", I didn't spend much time with it, and chances are, it may need a little "higher" RCUT as well.


So(and I *did* look closely enough at this this time to feel relatively confident about reporting it accurately) ------ on MY particular set, Between RDRV~BCUT = 32-18-8-30-17-11(or 32-17-7-28-17-13), and RDRV~BCUT 43-27-16-42-26-20, both of which produce VERY similar(but not quite exact) greyscale(linearity and CT wise) given white/black levels are adjusted "differently" accordingly ----- For convienience(in case it's of some use to others, although I think it's probably very doubtful any two sets will track "exactly" the same), The DRV/CUT's "tracked" as follows, and, the testing I did seemed to indicate the same ratio would apply for RDRV~BCUT which also somewhat closely match those greyscale results, with RDRV starting at "34, 35, or 38" (and I expect anywhere at least in the range between RDRV=32 and RDRV=43).


RDRV = +11

GDRV = +9 (or +10)

BDRV = + 8 (or +9)

RCUT = ~ +12 or +14

GCUT = +9

BCUT = ~ +7 or +9


----------



## ziltomil

I need some help.


I was trying to fix overscan issues with my 30XS955 and I noticed the electron beam doesn't draw the whole picture. So even though I maximized the viewable picture on screen, I'm still missing some picture around the edge that isn't being drawn, particuarly the left side.


How do I fix this?


----------



## Nitewatchman

zitomil,


Search this thread for such items as "HBLK", "RBLK" or "LBLK" or "blanking" or "shutter" and I'd think you should find info pertaining to your issue. The latter portion of the below post for instance, contains some info which should be of interest :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ng#post5906338


----------



## ziltomil




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> zitomil,
> 
> 
> Search this thread for such items as "HBLK", "RBLK" or "LBLK" or "blanking" or "shutter" and I'd think you should find info pertaining to your issue. The latter portion of the below post for instance, contains some info which should be of interest :
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ng#post5906338



Super!!! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!


----------



## JoeKing

For people with 34xbr960 and HD DVD players... I have found an amazingly good screen for adjusting focus! If you go into the setup screen for the player, go to maintainence, then go to update, then hit OK, at the license agreement page there is the smallest text ever and it covers the entire screen (even to the extreme edges)... this screen will show even the slightest imperfections as far as focus goes. The text does not quite hit the extreme upper right portion of the screen. This can be easily solved however if you do horizontal expand within your set you can get the upper right portion of the screen covered. Next, adjust focus.


The first focus value was changed to 10.... The focus adjustment for the middle portion of the screen(DPDC?) was changed from 43 to 41... and the last two focus adjustments(DF and DQP?) were changed from 34 and 30 to 38 and 31... All text was ledgable and unsmeared when I was finished regardless of how far along the edges the text was.


Text really is a lot better than dots as far as adjusting focus imo because you can really see the difference unliKe with dots where the shape of the dot changes as it gets smaller and when you have the smallest dots, you do not neccessarily have the sharpest focus.


Here is something else I noticed... When I put DF lower than the default of 34, I felt I got reddish whites... When I put DF to 38 I feel that for some reason images appeared a little green at times... It is very slight though and I don't know if I am perceiving something that isn't there or not... I also think that after messing with the set's CUTs and DRIVES I have become more sensitive to the set's color.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JoeKing* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For people with 34xbr960 and HD DVD players... I have found an amazingly good screen for adjusting focus! If you go into the setup screen for the player, go to maintainence, then go to update, then hit OK, at the license agreement page there is the smallest text ever and it covers the entire screen (even to the extreme edges)... this screen will show even the slightest imperfections as far as focus goes. The text does not quite hit the extreme upper right portion of the screen. This can be easily solved however if you do horizontal expand within your set you can get the upper right portion of the screen covered. Next, adjust focus.
> 
> 
> The first focus value was changed to 10.... The focus adjustment for the middle portion of the screen(DPDC?) was changed from 43 to 41... and the last two focus adjustments(DF and DQP?) were changed from 34 and 30 to 38 and 31... All text was ledgable and unsmeared when I was finished regardless of how far along the edges the text was.
> 
> 
> Text really is a lot better than dots as far as adjusting focus imo because you can really see the difference unliKe with dots where the shape of the dot changes as it gets smaller and when you have the smallest dots, you do not neccessarily have the sharpest focus.



Wow, thanks a bunch for posting this. I hadn't been able to really adjust my focus very well because I didn't have a good pattern to use, but this worked great. Highly recommended.


----------



## jcrhunter

I just took delivery of a new Sony XBR970 today and figured I'd start out simply in Service mode by fixing its substantial vertical and horizontal overscan. I saw a minor horizontal pincusion problem which was easily fixed, and I then hit Mute and Enter to save my new settings. For some reason, that brought up the built-in cross-hatch generator and now I connot get rid of it.


None of the remote's buttons will take me back to the regular display, and unplugging the set and turning it back on just gets me about 1 second of regular video before the cross-hatch kicks in again. I've tried re-entering Service mode, but even then I can only seem to get the cross-hatch. I read somewhere that the TV/Video button is supposed to control the built-in cross-hatch pattern, but pressing it doesn't appear to have any effect.


Any suggestions to get me back to regular viewing mode would be very much appreciated.


Thanks


Colin Hunter


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jcrhunter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just took delivery of a new Sony XBR970 today and figured I'd start out simply in Service mode by fixing its substantial vertical and horizontal overscan. I saw a minor horizontal pincusion problem which was easily fixed, and I then hit Mute and Enter to save my new settings. For some reason, that brought up the built-in cross-hatch generator and now I connot get rid of it.
> 
> 
> None of the remote's buttons will take me back to the regular display, and unplugging the set and turning it back on just gets me about 1 second of regular video before the cross-hatch kicks in again. I've tried re-entering Service mode, but even then I can only seem to get the cross-hatch. I read somewhere that the TV/Video button is supposed to control the built-in cross-hatch pattern, but pressing it doesn't appear to have any effect.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions to get me back to regular viewing mode would be very much appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Colin Hunter



Read #1426


----------



## jcrhunter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Read #1426



Thank you very much for the pointer - the information worked and I'm now able to view video once more. I'd tried searching the thread before postimg my question but I'd searched on "crosshatch" which didn't give anything useful.


Again, many thanks, and so quickly as well!


Colin Hunter


----------



## aleavsf

I have a WEGA KV-29FS110 CRT, 29" and I have some doubts:


1) If anybody has a similar model, wich values you have for the SCON, SHUE, SCOL & SBRT parameters of the SM (both for PAL-N and NTSC)?


2) When full withe screen appears, I can see a soften pink circle arround the screen... did anybody know why this happens?


3) Is there any posibility or a parameter in the SM to add numbers to the bars when setting the levels of color, contrast, etc. in the standard menu? this model came with small horizontal bars that make a long horizontal bar, but no numbers!!! it's very unconfortable


like this:

contrast ||||||||||||

brigthnes |||||||||

color ||||||||||||||


4) I can't find Y-DC parameter... did anybody know any other name for this parameter?



Sorry for my english

Thanks in advance!!!!










Alex


----------



## corlay

Hello All.

*great* discussion!...


I'm new to HDTV Ownership, and calibration;

but I've been lurking in this forum for a few weeks now;

and have read and learned as much as I can.


When I purchased my 30HS420 a few weeks ago

(new, factory-sealed @ a local retailer on *wicked* clearance sale)

I originally only intended to purchace DVE and clibrate via the User Menu controls only. But after making compromises for 'red push', and not being totally happy with the resultant clarity; I decided to follow how-to-instructions in this thread and enter the Service Menu.


So far, I'm extermely impressed!


Last night I adjusted for:

(please keep in mind that I use my set for standard cable (RF) 480i & DVD (component) 480p inputs only right now. No 1080 at all...)


2170P-1: SBRT

(with the User Menu Brightness centered, I only had to adjust this a point or two for DVD (component input)...still have to adjust UBOF for RF input )


2170P-3: SYSM

(set to 3 for 480p (DVD, component) and 2 for 480i (RF, standard cable)


2170P-3: VMLV-VMDL

(all set to 0)


2170P-3: SHOF

(set to 0)


2170P-3: VM-VML

(all set to 0)


2170P-4: RYR - GYB

(I ended up with 10, 15, 6, 2? See my remaining questions below...)


2170D-4: QPDC

(with User Menu Sharpness centered, I found the factory setting (29) to be correct; and frankly, am too chicken to mess with the more specific settings in this group )


MID 5: MHLY-MVCE

(all set to 0; RF (cable) & Component (DVD) inputs)


In making these adjustments I have some questions:


1. Using the DVE color calibration slide, when setting the levels I know that the affected color blocks for each color (blue, red, green) should match *eachother*; but should they also be set to "blend" in with the 75% gray background as well?

I have trouble getting green, especially, to blend with the background. My resultant calibrated settings for RYR - GYB of 10-15-6-2 seem to differ quite a bit from the common reported settings in this forum? Especially the first and last numbers...This calibration was done with the DVE filters. Tonight I'll try setting again by adjusting 2170P-2: RGBS settings to gate the color output.


2. I've been reading here that the wholesale setting of the VM* codes to 0 is not a blanket solution. Any specific instructions out there for tweaking for cable (RF) and DVD (component) inputs?


3. My DVD player (Pioneer 563A) did not output the -4% black (for the Pulge test pattern in DVE) at it's centered setting for Brightness. So, I jumped it up one click, and now it does display the -4% black. Is this going to affect other inputs negatively? Is this where setting UBOF comes in to play?


4. When calibrating with DVE, should I be sending 480p or 480i from the player? Does it matter?


5. I haven't come across any info on utilizing the Service Codes for setting Picture? Do most of you just adjust this via the User Menu? (All other settings 'centered'?) Also, I have a lot of trouble guaging where to set Picture. My set just doesn't go into very obvious blooming. Any advice? (Although, I've independently set it 4 times now, and I always end up at the *exact* same setting of 27....)


6. My set does have a geometry issue: it bends outward in the lower left corner. This is something that is servicable under Sony 90 day warranty, right? I'd rather have a Tech come out and fix this, rather than messing in the Service Menus myself. Most of the example docs posted here list symmetrical geometry irregularities. But this is definitely just on one side.


My next steps:


1. I may try and optimize sharpness a bit more, and 'tune' it for my two inputs (dvd, cable). I think I'll start with KenTech's article on 'Tuning the 2103 Processor for the Cleanest, Sharpest Picture'. And maybe play with mimicing some of his posted examples for the 2170P-3:VM* series, MID 5 group, and 2170P-3: SYSM...


2. There's *no way* I'm going to try and adjust grayscale and/or gamma. I'm just too chicken. I don't trust my eye trying to match overcast skies outside... The discussions in this thread start out in a managable realm, for me; but toward the end it's getting way over my hurting head... I'm also guessing that these later tweaks are much more subtle that the earlier, well documented ones that I've started to make?


All in all, I'm excited to be able to improve the picture so strikingly. And also a bit dissapointed that they just don't ship 'em this way! And I'm glad I bought a Sony. (I looked at Toshiba's briefly, lured by lower price and smaller size....)


--

corlay


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aleavsf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 3) Is there any posibility or a parameter in the SM to add numbers to the bars when setting the levels of color, contrast, etc. in the standard menu?



I have never seen any setting on our DA-4-based TVs (the service mode we know) that can do this. The design of the user-menu has numbers built-in, and I see no options for adding or removing the numbers. I understand your frustration! I hate those "bars" with no numbers!


> Quote:
> 4) I can't find Y-DC parameter... did anybody know any other name for this parameter?



I will venture a guess that it might be the DC-restoration setting, i.e. what determines whether the black level stays exactly the same when the video material goes from dim to very bright. In our service mode, that parameter sems to be 2170P-4/DCTR. Here are the descriptions from an 34XBR2 manual (in 2170P-4):


DCTR = DC transfer ratio. 0=103%, 1-100%, 2=93%, 3=85%. [I leave this set to 1.]

DPIC or APED = Auto pedestal level. 0=OFF, 1-3 = IRE "kneedown" of 30, 35, and 40. [Set to 0.]

DSBO = Sub-brightness offset for UBLK (?). 0=-7, 7=0, 15=+8 "steps." [Set to 7.]


There are also two settings in 2103-1 which seem to duplicate a couple of these:


ATPD = Auto pedestal point. 0="through," 1=20 IRE, 2=30 IRE, 3=30 IRE.

DCTR = DC transfer ratio. 0=100%, 1=95%, 2=90%, 3=85%.

[These last are set ot 0 on my set.]


I have not experimented much with these settings. I don't want the TV messing with my black level, so I have tried to disable all such effects. The above settings depend on the value of BLK, the master setting for auto-black-level feature; i.e. each has four possible values that are preset for BLK 0 thru 3. I have BLK=0. Examining the data charts makes these relationships much more plain.


Hope this helps.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1. Using the DVE color calibration slide, when setting the levels I know that the affected color blocks for each color (blue, red, green) should match *eachother*; but should they also be set to "blend" in with the 75% gray background as well?



Welcome to the Forum! Yes, they should. Do them in the order blue-red-green. Use the blue to adjust Color and Hue, too before proceeding.


> Quote:
> I have trouble getting green, especially, to blend with the background. My resultant calibrated settings for RYR - GYB of 10-15-6-2 seem to differ quite a bit from the common reported settings in this forum? Especially the first and last numbers...This calibration was done with the DVE filters. Tonight I'll try setting again by adjusting 2170P-2: RGBS settings to gate the color output.



I would toss the plastic filter card and, for sure, and use the RGBS controls instead: 7=normal, 4=red, 2=green, 1=blue, and (watch out!) 0=black screen. If you hit 0 accidentally, just go back up to another color. Most folks have compromised on settings near 14-14-6-4. Even when I vacillate among different settings for the first two parameters, the -6-4 part seems solid.


The HS420 uses different phosphors from the newer fine-pitch tubes, but I'll bet that doesn't affect the above color settings.


----------



## irhxcbcziuzxs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> yes?



yes?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irhxcbcziuzxs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> yes?



Maybe.


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Welcome to the Forum!



Thanks for the warm welcome.

What an invaluable resource this is!




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Use the blue to adjust Color and Hue, too before proceeding.



Ahh... this is what I wasn't doing. I was just centering the User Menu for Color & Hue; and calibrating Red, Green from there. Blue is so deep and dark, that it looked close enough this way; but now that I've made adjustments to UCOF (2) & UHOF (3) Blue is right on. Thanks for the clarification...




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would toss the plastic filter card and, for sure,



*WOW* what a difference. *Much* easier to calibrate the color with RGBS...




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Most folks have compromised on settings near 14-14-6-4. Even when I vacillate among different settings for the first two parameters, the -6-4 part seems solid.



yes, now I'm right there, too: 14-14(15)-6(7)-4; with alternate settings that I waivered between in parenthesis...


Side Note:

One thing that I noticed is with properly calibrated Color, it's *much easier* to set Picture. Now, when I push Picture too high, a very obvious color-shift (warm) happens in the brightest White (100%?) in the DVE Pulge & Grayscale pattern. I've come to realize, however, that Picture is really a very subjective setting, with a wide range of "correct" based upon personal preference.


--

corlay


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One thing that I noticed is with properly calibrated Color, it's *much easier* to set Picture. Now, when I push Picture too high, a very obvious color-shift (warm) happens in the brightest White (100%?) in the DVE Pulge & Grayscale pattern. I've come to realize, however, that Picture is really a very subjective setting, with a wide range of "correct" based upon personal preference.



I can't speak for your TV, but I'm thinking that that "pinkish" cast in whites when they're very bright might be (partly?) an illusion. It certainly complicates adjusting grayscale by eye, so I am careful to reduce intensity when evaluating grayscale. I suspect that it's an artifact of human vision because I see the same thing in natural scenes outdoors: brilliant clouds against an otherwise blue sky or trees appear a bit "pink" when they have no reason to be so.


The science is that both color and intensity in vision are incredibly adaptive.


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can't speak for your TV, but I'm thinking that that "pinkish" cast in whites when they're very bright might be (partly?) an illusion.



actually, the "warmness" that I see is more yellow-ish than pink-ish. Probably because my set is still @ factory defaults for gamma, and grayscale settings?


and now that I think of it...

grayscale is *independent* of color settings, right? So color calibration should have no affect upon my Picture setting? But that "warmness" I see is definitely new. Hmmmm...


Oh, you know? I might have still been in "Warm" color mode (I've prefered it to "Neutral" up untill re-calibrating last night, now I'm not so sure...) when I re-adjusted Picture. Will "warm" cast color into bright white in an over exposed display? That might explain it...


--

corlay


----------



## corlay

should the edges between the different color squares in the DVE test patterns be sharply defined? Certain color adjacencies on mine seem to bleed together (like a Mark Rothko painting), with the boundaries a bit darker than the colors in the center of the squares. Is this normal? Or is this what a 'convergance issue' is?


--

corlay


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> grayscale is *independent* of color settings, right? So color calibration should have no affect upon my Picture setting? But that "warmness" I see is definitely new.



To clarify . . . The Cutoff and Drive settings (2170P-1/_DRV and _CUT) for the R-G-B guns in the CRT affect _everything_ having to do with color. They are how both the linearity of grayscale and the _color_ of grays are set. The color-balance matrix settings, RYR~GYB, are in play only when there is color in the video. Their action is something like: If there _is_ red in this video, _how much_ red should be displayed onscreen, relative to blue (standard) and green (the other adjustment)? Same for green. The DVE pattern, for example, is a set of color patches on a gray background, *all* of which have a brightness of 75%. If red is being exaggerated (the infamous "red push"), that square will appear brighter than the background when the red gun only is turned on.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> should the edges between the different color squares in the DVE test patterns be sharply defined? Certain color adjacencies on mine seem to bleed together (like a Mark Rothko painting), with the boundaries a bit darker than the colors in the center of the squares. Is this normal?



Yes. Adjacent bright colors are not cleanly delineated in NTSC TV because the process of encoding and decoding color causes some colors to be slightly delayed relative to others, and adjacent blocks can separate slightly (darkening) or overlap (bright line). It would be especially obnoxious in NTSC broadcast, but it's there on component-connected and HDMI DVD, and even the set's internal 480i test patterns. Comes with the territory, but hardly noticable in normal viewing.


In contrast, digital TV standards separate the colors much more cleanly, especially HD.


----------



## corlay

As learned in this thread, *UCOF* and *UHOF* are displaymode-specific and input-specific **offsets** for Color and Hue respectively. But following the logic of Sony's SM, shouldn't there be a **global** control for setting color & hue, and the offesets only invoked _as needed_ for a particular mode and input path? I've searched this thread and see no mention of such a setting?


Post #140 outlines a process,

that includes:

_"(5) Set 2170P2/RGBS to 1 (blue) and adjust 2170P-3/UCOF for correct color amount and UHOF for correct hue. WRITE the settings."_


But it seems like there should be a global control to adjust color/hue for calibating *RGBS*=1 (blue)? Just like *RYR*,*RYB*,*GYR*, *GYB* are global settings.


Seems like offsets should only be invoked if a particular input is a bit off from DVD 480i, like some have reported.


Seems like the relationships of the settings should work like *SBRT* and *UBOF* do. No?


--

corlay



[comments below added later...]


whoops.


I found it in post #177.


2170P-4 #4-6/SPIO-SHUO


are the global offsets that I'd assumed existed.


sorry for the false alarm...


--

corlay


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As learned in this thread, *UCOF* and *UHOF* are displaymode-specific and input-specific **offsets** for Color and Hue respectively. But following the logic of Sony's SM, shouldn't there be a **global** control for setting color & hue, and the offesets only invoked _as needed_ for a particular mode and input path? I've searched this thread and see no mention of such a setting?



I tried to summarize these controls in the document attached *here* , named *GS&ColorCharts04.pdf*. This stuff drove me nuts until I consolidated the information in one place! You're correct in your assumptions, of course.


----------



## TotallyTubular

Quick question. Are Geometry settings not resolution dependent? When I change the settings in 720p they are reflected in 480p and vice versa. This causes one of the modes to have severe geometry problems. It would seem they would be set to their respective res. but that is definitely not the case with my new 970. I've read plenty, but I am new to this; any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyTubular* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Quick question. Are Geometry settings not resolution dependent?



It depends on exactly _which_ geometry setting you're looking at. (And you are using the term "resolution" loosely. I understand the question, though.) Some, such as aspect-ratio (2170D-1/ASPT), a _vertical_-size setting, have individual values for each possible video-display mode. But overall width, for example, has only a _global_ setting plus one additional for "wide-zoom."


Vertical linearity is another. When I have 2170D-1/VLIN and VSCO set perfectly for full 4:3 display on my 36XS955, there is a slight stretch to the center of any 16:9 display, which you can see when movie credits roll. But if I correct that, then the 4:3 display has a slight central "pinch." So a compromise is necessary. Your issues will be somewhat different if you have a 16:9 TV.


The service-data charts make clear, with their multiple or single columns, which parameters are video-mode dependent and which aren't. You should examine those charts for your TV.


----------



## corlay

KT,


Just wanted to chime in and thank you for all your (sometimes daring) hard work. It's really helped me out a lot. I'd not have the confidence, nor the know-how to 'twiddle' without this forum...


Last night, I tried out your method for tuning the 2103 processor for sharpness, and the new approach to SYSM=3 image processing; and all I can say is: "wow".


One question:

When viewing the Title.13, Ch.2 slide in DVE for tuning sharpness, the shifts in clarity on my set weren't so cut and dried as your article made it seem it would be. Mine's not a superfinepitch, so maybe that's the difference? There were some PPHA positions where the black/white vertical lines just blurred completely into gray (definitely *not* a "sweet spot"); but the one's that looked ok seem to comprise a *range* of 3-4 steps, vs. the obvious good/bad appearence between adjacent steps that your article suggests. I just set it to the middle of a good range, and it seems to be pretty good.


Also, what was troubling about going through this exercise was that the the box in the DVE pattern that includes the finest *horizontal* lines was not static on my display. It has a lot of flicker. Is there a way to make *horizontal* image refinement in the SM as well? This flicker reduces quite a bit when I set the TV to 'progressive' vs. 'interlaced' but it doesn't completely dissapear.


--

corlay

"We all get smart quickly"

(mostly, at KenTech's expense...)


----------



## aleavsf

KenTech, thanks for your helpful answers!!! ...but the worst problem I have are the pink patches that can be seen when a full white screen is displayed. Is there any posibility to fix this?


Thanks in advance!


----------



## RWetmore

I have run into a problem with my set running 480i 4:3 material via composite video (video game systems). About a half and inch or more is cut off the bottom of the screen, and adjusting VSIZ or VPOS doesn't correct it. Is there anyway to fix this. What gives?


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aleavsf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> KenTech, thanks for your helpful answers!!! ...but the worst problem I have are the pink patches that can be seen when a full white screen is displayed. Is there any posibility to fix this?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Are the splotches in the corners or somewhere else?


See Ken's post here about adjusting the landing settings:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post5687363


----------



## mortaldivine




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are the splotches in the corners or somewhere else?
> 
> 
> See Ken's post here about adjusting the landing settings:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post5687363



Seems LANDING always fixes the pink patches but does anyone know about light blue patches? I heard someone say those were caused by the grill failing?


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mortaldivine* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Seems LANDING always fixes the pink patches but does anyone know about light blue patches? I heard someone say those were caused by the grill failing?



Where are the light blue patches? If they are in the corners, then it's probably a beam landing issue.


----------



## mortaldivine




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Where are the light blue patches? If they are in the corners, then it's probably a beam landing issue.



Right top and bottom corners. There are also some dark areas on the left side of the tv. Basically, the right and left of my screen is developing all sorts of color/darkening issues. I tried the LANDING settings and it was looking worse so I stopped.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Hi all,


I wanted to ask some of the more proficient adjusters if they could help me track down the source of this problem.

I was trying to access the rear of my set (34-xs955) and while turning this 200 pounder, the stiction of the base gave out and it moved with a slight jerking pop.

When I turned the set back on, the bottom half of the picture was bowing upwards. I had adjusted for this in the past with the VCENT setting, but this time the adjustment had no effect even when running it from one end to the other (0-63). I am assuming that I must have lost a solder connection in that abrubt shift.

My question is, is there a particular board or chip that controls the group of settings that this adjustment is in. If I were to have it serviced, I'd like to be able to point them in the general direction.

Thank you in advance for any advice.


Bryan


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Where are the light blue patches? If they are in the corners, then it's probably a beam landing issue.



Another relevant question: Are the patches there regardless of the brightness of the screen? Weird colors in the corners or along the sides that are LANDING problems are not brightness-dependent. But light-bluish patches that appear after a few seconds of bright white are a warping of the aperture grille, temporary in every case I've seen. The worst case is white from top to bottom, which heats up the same grille wires from top to bottom, causing them to expand and go out of alignment. On my set, the color patches go away when the program material goes back to normal brightness. White test patterns are the worst.


Try comparing the problem with a bright screen, and then with maybe a 30% gray from one of the test DVDs. If the color patches go away, it's warping. Nothing you can do.


That LANDING-adjustment procedure just mentioned is still a good one by me.


----------



## JoeKing

Hi, when I have red push disabled skin tones and yellows appear SLIGHTLY green at times and reds sometimes appear slightly purplish on certain HD material(1 out of 10 movies) while other HD material looks fine. When I have red push enabled and have the color toned down to compensate, flesh tones look slightly better and yellows appear good on all HD material but ofcourse green and blue objects appear lack saturation and the image appears too baige. I changed my color decoder adjustments for non redpush to 10, 10, 8, 5 and feel like all is good with the exception of the Happy Gilmore HD DVD where the colors appear to be a little bit off. IMO, when the color axis is set to Monitor on my set, reds appear to be overly subdued and that is why I get slightly greenish yellows and purplish reds at times instead of red colors being presented equally with blue and green. I would like some opinions on this from other people who view HD with red push disabled.


Since out of all of my HD DVDs(I own 6), this effect is only present on Happy Gilmore, I am hoping that my set's colors are not off and Happy Gilmore was made with incorrect colors. An example of discoloration during Happy Gilmore would be during the scene where the movers are outside and teeing up to play a little bit of golf. I can swear that the black man has a purplish hue to his skin tone and the white man's skin tone appears fine at times but appears slightly green during others. Also, when viewing the chapter that starts off with a red pepsi flag waving, the flag appears slightly neon pinkish red instead of regular red. Can somebody with Happy Gilmore please check the colors and tell me if it is my set or the movie that has the off colors? It would be much appreciated.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I turned the set back on, the bottom half of the picture was bowing upwards. I had adjusted for this in the past with the VCENT setting, but this time the adjustment had no effect even when running it from one end to the other (0-63).



You've probably already thought of this, but just in case it helps .... I might wonder if a factory placed "permaalloy assembly" (magnet) fell off the back of the tube, although that wouldn't explain why there is no effect whatsoever when changing VCEN.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Jeff,


No, I hadn't thought of that, but I have been getting up the nerve to open the case and check one of the magnets in the upper right-hand corner so I will check for one in that bottom area at that time.

Did anyone find out the chip/board that governs the VCEN setting OR what other settings might be rendered inoperable if a faulty solder joint/chip/board has failed?

Thanks for the suggestion,


Bryan


----------



## Decharo

I cannot get into service mode. Help!

I recently purchased a floor model 960 and I can't get into the service mode.

Do I need a specific Sony remote? My 960 did not come with a remote and I am using one from an older Sony set.

I am following the directions at the beginning of this thread Display-5-volume+-power, and starting with the TV in the off position. I am beginning to believe it has something to do with my remote, is there some other code the remote sends along with the buttons function?

I have tested my remote and it seems to do the functions accordingly. When I hit display the display window comes up, when I hit volume the volume goes up, when I hit 5, well nothing happens which it shouldn't because I am in my input #7 HDMI (I am sure it works because it changes the channel on my other sony set), when I hit power the unit goes off or on.


Any Ideas?


----------



## jjmilo

Start with the Tv on. Then In Quick succession Press power off, Display, 5, volume +, power on. The Service Menu data should then appear on your screen in monochrome green.


----------



## corlay

very consistiently, throughout this discussion, 480p (via component) is labeled as the blackest input. And one is advised to set SBRT value based upon this (with a dvd pulge pattern) with that input's UBOF=0; and then ratchet everything else up, as needed, via UBOF.


The theory being, if 480p(component) is the darkest, everything else offests upwards from that lowest common denomonator.


But, in my case, a UBOF=0, SBRT-calibrated 480i(component) is *much blacker*; with a UBOF=4 setting required in 480p to achieve proper calibration there (via DVD pulge)


This scares me a bit, and makes me wonder if I've got a whacked-out setting somewhere?


Could someone point me in the right direction to look?

(I'll probably start by going through KT's custom chart, comparing my input-specific settings between 480i(component) & 480p(component))


My set is KV420HS

and player is Pioneer 563a

if that makes a difference...


thanks.


--

corlay


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> very consistiently, throughout this discussion, 480p (via component) is labeled as the blackest input. And one is advised to set SBRT value based upon this (with a dvd pulge pattern) with that input's UBOF=0; and then ratchet everything else up, as needed, via UBOF.
> 
> 
> The theory being, if 480p(component) is the darkest, everything else offests upwards from that lowest common denomonator.



Don't think there's anything of particular importance involved concerning *which* particular scan rate/input/device gets the lowest UBOF setting, which of course would be the "lightest or "whiteist(lol, I'm sure THAT's not a word)" not the "blackest" input/scan rate/"device"/etc ...


In my case, It does so happen that 480p via Component from *my* particular DVD player requires the lowest UBOF setting to balance black level among all inputs/scan rates(to use the same "brightness" slider setting for all inputs/scan rates), even though 480i via component from the *same* player requires UBOF=1 to "match". I would not assume that would allways be the case for others ...



> Quote:
> But, in my case, a UBOF=0, SBRT-calibrated 480i(component) is *much blacker*; with a UBOF=4 setting required in 480p to achieve proper calibration there (via DVD pulge)
> 
> 
> This scares me a bit, and makes me wonder if I've got a whacked-out setting somewhere?



I need UBOF=0/1 for 480p/480i via component from my particular DVD player, and everything else needs to be UBOF=4~5, if it were say, 480i via component DVD that needed UBOF=0, and 480p from same player needed UBOF=4 personally, I wouldn't be concerned, but I might be a bit curious concerning why the black levels seem so "different" for different scan rate from the same player ...


Probably curious enough to hook the player up to another set to see if I could detirmine if similar results(quite different black level from 480i+480p output from the same player) occured.


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> concerning *which* particular scan rate/input/device gets the lowest UBOF setting, which of course would be the "lightest or "whiteist(lol, I'm sure THAT's not a word)" not the "blackest" input/scan rate/"device"/etc ...



yeah, that's what I meant.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've always wondered why most participants here offset *all* of their inputs to some degree? Is it that a properly calibrated Brightness, although technically correct, is just too black for television viewing?



Well, for UBOF, it's just so we can use the *same* brightness slider setting for any input/scan rate/etc and achieve the same black level without either constantly twiddling the brightness slider(especially for those who choose to use "mode memory off, but this would effect even those who use mode memory "on" from for instance, a DVD player hooked up to component input 5 who need different black level settings for 480i vs 480p from the same player), and for having a simple to remember "reference" for the brightness slider for easily knowing what brightness slider value=properly calibarted black level on any input/scan rate.


Keep in mind, as far as the actual "effects" go Changing UBOF by a value of "1" is the *same* as changing "brightness" slider by "2". Same thing for SBRT, which is "global" and not input or scan rate specific like UBOF.



> Quote:
> 480p was achieved by sending progressive from the player, as opposed to sending interlaced and letting the Sony convert to progressive. Maybe that's why?



That has not been my experience, regardless of which DRC setting(interlaced, Progressive or Cinemotion) is used with 480i. For instance, I get the same results when hooking same the DVD player up to another set concerning black levels from 480i from that player vs 480p from the same player, it's just slightly "blacker" from the 480i output from the player.


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> and for having a simple to remember "reference" for the brightness slider for easily knowing what brightness slider value=properly calibarted black level on any input/scan rate.



How is everyone calibrating for inputs other than that which is compatible with DVD sources? or are non-DVD sources just "eyeballed"?


Like for RF (standard cable). How does one calibrate that? or VHS sources over composite?


Now, I just match RF to my 480i (component), which is calibrated using DVE test patterns; and hope that i'm close...


--

corlay


----------



## Decharo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjmilo* /forum/post/0
> 
> Start with the Tv on. Then In Quick succession Press power off, Display, 5, volume +, power on. The Service Menu data should then appear on your screen in monochrome green.



Thanks,


I will give it a shot tonight.


I have always started with the TV off.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How is everyone calibrating for inputs other than that which is compatible with DVD sources?




I did hook up DVD player temporarily to S-Video input to calibrate CV/YC (s-video+composite input share same SM settings), and also tried the DVD player hooked up to composite input to see if it was "the same"(it was pretty much) that seems to have worked well for my SVHS deck and Dish Network Sat receiver via S-video inputs, although there is of course no way to absolutely "verify" the latter .....


I don't use cable(use OTA HD/ATSC internal tuner+DVD primarily for TV programming, Sat/Dish SD network receiver to supplement that a bit), but I've found the internal test patterns labeld "ATSC"(there's a series of patterns for 1080i/720p/480p and 480i) in "QM" section to be benifical for the internal ATSC tuner, as well as patterns from MS. I'd think those should work well, and should apply to QAM/Cablecard as well. For instance, Black level for 1080i/720p ATSC broadcast sources(and thus the same UBOF as for 1080i/MS) seems to fairly well match the calibration I did from a Pluge pattern played from jpg file from memory stick.


Update: Note(this pertains *only* to 480p/720p+1080i and working with/looking at "color" when working In SM ) ..... *Do* note that when you are working in SM, (well, this is the case on my set(KD34XBR960 manufactured Jan 05 at least), when 480p, 720p or 1080i signals are input, the proper "color matrix" for ATSC/NTSC(or 480p vs 720p/1080i/etc) sources is not selected "automatically" as occurs if you are operating the set normally outside of service mode. Therefore, when looking at "color" from within the SM, you need to, for example set(or verify) 2171CXA/MTRX=0 for 480p NTSC sources(such as from DVD), and 2171CXA/MTRX=1 for 720p/1080i ATSC sources for proper color decoding to occur, otherwise what you'll see color decoding wise while working in SM will be *inaccurate* for 480p/720p/1080i sources. Note that Only 480p/720p+1080i signals are effected, and that MTRX is a temporary setting which is not saved.

:end update



I have caught color bars up here or there from broadcast NTSC(analog) stations, and although they are really not to be "trusted", I've checked and made some assuptions concerning RF input+various color related settings.



> Quote:
> Now, I just match RF to my 480i (component), which is calibrated using DVE test patterns; and hope that i'm close...



Be very careful there, especially when "balancing" white levels with 2170P4 **** or black levels with UBOF. In any case, FWIW, It certianly doesn't match 480i via component from My DVD player, but on my set, the needed black level settings for RF input(which is composite NTSC video) and CV/YC do seem to match, or seem very close to matching .....


And you may also want to be sure you are aware of the 2103-1 settings specific to only CV/YC and "RF" inputs (2103-1 SCON/SHUE/SCOL/etc) ....


Much will depend upon the output of your DVD player I'd think, and I'd think merely assuming it matches the RF input, or "is close" is probably assuming too much .... HOWEVER, I'd think it Should be noticable by "eyeballing it" to some degree ... for instance, if black levels are noticably generally "too dark" or "too bright" from your RF/Cable sources, although keep in mind black levels from such sources can vary all over the place ...


In addition to service code chart listing for your set(which can be found attached to a post "somewhere" in this thread) BTW, You may find the charts attached to Ken's Post #892 useful in your efforts ... They are easier to look at and "interpet" than the "full chart", that's for certian!


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the internal test patterns



do these exist on a 30HS420?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> *Do* note that when you are working in SM, when 480p, 720p or 1080i signals are input, the proper "color matrix" for ATSC/NTSC(or 480p vs 720p/1080i/etc) sources is not selected "automatically" as occurs if you are operating the set normally outside of service mode.



Can someone verify that this also applies to 30HS420?

How to know?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have caught color bars up here or there from broadcast NTSC(analog) stations, and although they are really not to be "trusted", I've checked and made some assuptions concerning RF input+various color related settings.



One of my local channels puts up those standrad NTSC color bars after ~1:00am. Maybe I'll play around with color calibration for RF that way. I looked at it once, and color-gated for blue, red, green separately and it wasn't even close... :-(


--

corlay


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> do these exist on a 30HS420?



Look for a ("blue color) "QM" section in Service menu, it's undocumented in SM, and near the "end" of the different SM "sections" on my set.


The patterns on my set are in QM #1 - PATN #1~80, there are also several patterns in QM #2 (GATN?) #1~7(or so), the latter which use whatever mode of the current signal source. QM #0-INFO #0-7 has some diagnostic info screens which may be of interest to some. in PATN, There are 20 identical patterns for each scan rate (in this order - ATSC 1080i-480i-480p-720p). They aren't very sophisticated, but there are good color bars. Also note --- As discussed earlier on a few occasions, If you WRITE another setting elsewhere in SM when you have one of those patterns up, (this is an oddity I know), you will probably need to make sure your return QM/PATN value to ZERO(and WRITE the "0" value(no test pattern) before you exit SM, otherwise the test pattern you were working on will likely remain "stuck" on screen when you exit SM.



> Quote:
> How to know?



Check Color bars/color test pattern outside of SM, then go into SM, and compare - While I wouldn't use the DVE plastic filters and would use RGBS instead for actual calibration work, since you can't use RGBS outside of SM, the DVE plastic filters should be good enough for this comparision(actually, you should probably be able to see the difference in say, Cyan with just your eyes when switching between MTRX=0 and MTRX=1 within SM) :


If it's relevant to your set, For example, if You are in SM and you're looking at 480p from DVD and NTSC color bars and MTRX=0 and the color decoding is the SAME as it was outside of SM(where again the proper color matrix or "color space" is chosen automatically by the set), the color bars would be exactly the same. However, when working in SM and if it's relevant and if MTRX=1, then it Won't be the same ..... Generally, if you were using a 720p/1080i source immediately BEFORE you entered SM, MTRX will probably show "1", and if you were using 480p/NTSC source before you entered SM it will probably show "0". But, it doesn't *allways* happen this way(at least on my set), and can be either, which is one reason why it's sometimes necessary for me to change the MTRX setting when I was working in SM with color settings for 480p NTSC from DVD vs. 720p/1080i from internal tuner, QM test patterns or 1080i from Memory stick ...


Searching this thread for such items as "MTRX" should produce more detailed info ......


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Decharo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> I will give it a shot tonight.
> 
> 
> I have always started with the TV off.



There is no problem starting with the TV off. It just has to be off when you push the Display-5-Vol+ combo. When I want to make some planned adjustments, I start with the TV off.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> in PATN, There are 20 identical patterns for each scan rate (in this order - ATSC 1080i/720p/480p/480i).



On my 36XS955, they are in the order: 1080i - 480i - 480p - 720p.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> do these exist on a 30HS420?



I believe the internal test patterns are hosted on the QM board, which is part of the ATSC/QAM tuner module. My HS510 does not have this tuner or test patterns and I don't believe the HS420 has them either.


----------



## Decharo

I'm in!


Now I need to sort though this post to find out what I need to do to my 960. I find myself getting kind of dizzy when I watch this TV. I don't know if it is a focus issue or convergence or something else I am clueless about. I believe I need test patterns, I am goig to purchase DVE. I have read somewhere in this thread that within the SM there is test patterns, I can't find it again. Anybody?


I am having a hard time searching this post, I don't know if it is because of the size of it or my layman search terms.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On my 36XS955, they are in the order: 1080i - 480i - 480p - 720p.



Yes, Oops! Sorry about that. That was a mistake, probably didn't help that I was doing about 5 other things while composing that post - I'll edit/fix that, it's the same here, Ken on XBR960.


Update: Which reminds me -- Never thought to mention it, and not sure if it's been mentioned earlier or not, but of course the SM info at top of screen(including info on signal source- 1080i/480i/etc.) isn't displayed when you are "in" QM menu, but appears if you put a QM pattern up and move elsewhere in SM. :end update

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Also, Wasn't clear which set models have ATSC/QAM receiver built in, and which don't ... What Raoulii said certianly makes sense ....


And, if it's the case Corlay may not have a 720p/1080i HD source he's working with, I'm thinking he's probably not going to have an issue with "MTRX" either(assuming the HS420 also uses 21x1CXA/"YUV switch" processor), as, hard to say, but I'd guess it might be likely it would end up being MTRX="0" at all times when SM is entered if 480p sources are being used and 720p/1080i isn't.


So, in other words - Sorry corlay! The info on QM, and MTRX was probably more than you needed or wanted to know ...


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So, in other words - Sorry corlay! The info on QM, and MTRX was probably more than you needed or wanted to know ...



well...


it would have been nice to have a means for proper calibration of all inputs, individually.


thanks anyway....


--

corlay


----------



## KenTech

*OPINIONS SOLICITED.* Attention color-tweaking fanatics: What, in your opinion, does 2170P-1/DCOL appear to do? (It follows the color-offset parameters for Warm and Cool, RDOF~BCOF.)


An earlier service manual identifies it as "dynamic color - Cool." So I ran a few experiments. My "Normal" color temp setting is currently very linear: a b/w image is amazingly neutral, bright to shadow. So I set the Cool offsets to 31-31-31--31-31-31 (no effect) and set the CT to Cool. As I varied DCOL from 0 thru 3 on a b/w picture (Color=Min), the picture got uniformly cooler, perfectly balanced from bright to shadow. 1 is only a very mild change, 2 and 3 more noticeable. So, one might suppose that a good conservative "Cool" setup would be to set DCOL to 1-3, and leave the offsets at 31. So I set it to 1 and watched TV last evening. Seems equivalent to a usual conservative Cool offset of, say, 30-31-32 -- 30-31-32 and DCOL=0, at least at first try. Nothing weird; very discreet.


(I confirmed: It does seem to affect _only_ the Cool CT setting. Warm and Normal are not affected.)


So the burning question is: What is dynamic about this DCOL setting? Are only bright tones affected when skin tones are present? Does it cleverly apply a coolish tone to only some parts of the image when colors are present? In b/w images, it seems to me to cool things off very even-handedly, from shadows to white. So . . . Dynamic? How?


Other sets of eyes would be appreciated on this.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Quote:

Originally Posted by *KenTech*
My "Normal" color temp setting is currently very linear: a b/w image is amazingly neutral, bright to shadow. So I set the Cool offsets to 31-31-31--31-31-31 (no effect) and set the CT to Cool. As I varied DCOL from 0 thru 3 on a b/w picture (Color=Min), the picture got uniformly cooler, perfectly balanced from bright to shadow.
Tried this also. Saw the same thing as you. Including but not limited to - using jpeg greyscale image included in attached zip file "16stepgreyscale1920x1080jpg.zip" --


BTW, wow! Never would have thought a 1920x1080 greyscale jpeg image would compress into a zip file only 1.4KB in size!


However ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by *KenTech*
So I set it to 1 and watched TV last evening. Seems equivalent to a usual conservative Cool offset of, say, 30-31-32 -- 30-31-32 and DCOL=0, at least at first try. Nothing weird; very discreet.
Experiment #1:


I tried something a little different ... Cool Offset/RDOF~BCOF= 32-31-30-32-31-30, DCOL=1 -- Well, This doesn't "match" my neutral RDRV~BCUT settings, but, the differences are pretty slight. In my case, at first I thought it might be just a wee, tad bit warmer than "neutral"(It's labeled "neutral" not Normal on XBR960 go figure) throughout brightness range ...


But, looking at it a little more(just greyscale with color off, various patterns such as the 16step jpg image via MS attached to this post) --- Perhaps with these settings It Adds a slight bit of +Red "pinkishness(or "magnetaishness)", at least in midnotes+lower brightness levels vs. my netural setting ..


It's really hard to say, and very difficult to trust my eyes on this one, but I'd swear it almost seems like with the above settings for cool offset in this case CT *may* be cooler CT in brighter areas, while at the same time it seems with these settings for "cool" I am definitely getting a very, wee tad bit of +red "pinkishness"(or magnetaishness") in mid-tones and low brightness levels -- that does not seem(doesn't mean it isn't though, as what is going on here is very slight, and would be difficult to say it's Not there in brighter areas as well) to be there in brighter areas .....


So -- Ok, I thought -- Well, who knows what is causing that, so thought I might try :


Experiment #2:


Cool Offset : RDOF~BCOF=31-31-31-31-31-31 / DCOL=1.


Warm Offset : RDOF~BCOF 30-31-32-30-31-32 (WBSW=0 - Note - As you detirmined Looks like DCOL only effects the cool off set, and also without looking at it too closely it looks like the BIG WBSW=1 "warm" switch only effects warm offset)


Knowing that I'd confirmed identical results on previous occasions via setting the Warm/cool offsets to the exact same values for RDOF~BCOF, I might then expect to acheive the same, or very similar results with A/B comparisions between these settings for cool/warm offset, no?


Well, at first that seemed to be the case --- looking at only Greyscale patterns with color "off" --- If there were any differences between a/b comparisions of these cool/Warm offsets, my eye couldn't detect a difference(although I can't definitively say there wasn't one -- If there *was* a difference, I can say it was *very*, very slight) .....


So - turned Color slider to my normal settings "as calibrated"(color slider=31), and, being lazy as only needed two button presses to get there, went to the EPG via my Dish network receiver to look at the "shade of red" that shows for the channels I'm not subscribed to(if it's not the "right" shade of red, it annoys me for some reason, LOL) .... Since a pic is worth 1,000 words, I've attached a screenshot of what that looks like to this message, filename "dishepg.jpg".


Well ... You know what? The shade of red for the "unsubscribed" channels and "cool vs. Warm" offsets as described above DID not match, nor were they as close as would be the case with slight differences in Offsets .... I even tried different settings for DCOL, and although the CT became "cooler" with DCOL=2 or 3, the shade of Red never did reach the same "coolness of red"(so to speak) that was there with the "warm" offset ("cooler" than netural) ...

Quote:

What, in your opinion, does 2170P-1/DCOL appear to do? So the burning question is: What is dynamic about this DCOL setting? Are only bright tones affected when skin tones are present? Does it cleverly apply a coolish tone to only some parts of the image when colors are present? In b/w images, it seems to me to cool things off very even-handedly, from shadows to white. So . . . Dynamic? How?

I don't know Ken -- Appears to me there may be(emphacize may) *something* interesting going on with it, but #1). I haven't seen enough yet to be able to form an opinion concerning what is going on, and #2). from what I've seen so far - at this point at least -- whatever it is, I don't think I like it(who knows though I could end up being wrong about that, LOL) ...

 

16stepgreyscale1920x1080jpg.zip 1.3681640625k . file


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I tried something a little different ... Cool Offset/RDOF~BCOF= 32-31-30-32-31-30, DCOL=1 -- Well, This doesn't "match" my neutral RDRV~BCUT settings, but, the differences are pretty slight. In my case, at first I thought it might be just a wee, tad bit warmer than "neutral"(It's labeled "neutral" not Normal on XBR960 go figure) throughout brightness range ...
> 
> 
> But, looking at it a little more(just greyscale with color off, various patterns such as the 16step jpg image via MS attached to this post) --- Perhaps with these settings It Adds a slight bit of +Red "pinkishness(or "magnetaishness)", at least in midnotes+lower brightness levels vs. my netural setting ..



I assume you intended that this "Cool" offset-setup be warm, not cool. 32-31-30--32-31-30 is a warm, not cool, bias. So it should be a tad warmer, indeed.


But it brings up a potential experiment: Set CT to Cool, then add, say, +2 of DCOL, and try to cancel it with warmish "Cool" offsets. When you can't see a difference when switching from Neutral, you can note the offset-settings that canceled it. Then install their opposite coolish equivalents temporarily for the Warm offsets for testing. The question then becomes: Are the Warm and Cool settings, thus configured, identical? Or is ther something else going on with the DCOL=2-only Cool setting.


I have tried to second-guess the Sony intent: What was the person/committee thinking when they "invented" DCOL? "Let's cool thing off a little more for bright scenes than for dark scenes." "Let's try to avoid cooling off flesh tones." That would be the _dynamic_ aspect of it -- they're trying to do something to the overall color that is somehow intelligently scene-dependent. After all, Sony have already made available all kinds of "dynamic picture" features as far as black level and contrast are concerned -- and that we rigorously turn off. It's a long-standing and, IMHO, _paternalistic_ tradition in TV manufacturing to do something "automatic" to the picture to make it "better," starting with skin-tone correction in the 60s and 70s. Only in recent decades does it seem that most TVs offer a way of completely cancelling such effects.


I won't belabor the point -- but one tremendous value of the easy access to Sony's service mode that the set can be turned into a marvelous, UN-automatic display device with a few, simple changes.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Including but not limited to - using jpeg greyscale image included in attached zip file "16stepgreyscale1920x1080jpg.zip" --
> 
> 
> BTW, wow! Never would have thought a 1920x1080 greyscale jpeg image would compress into a zip file only 1.4KB in size!



Thanks for posting this valuable pattern. It can, of course, be rescaled and copy/pasted in several places in a new pattern so that variations in color over the screen doesn't fool your eyes.


On compression: Common compression schemes, e.g. zip, jpeg, png, sit, all rely on the elimination of redundancy in the data for making file-sizes smaller. A whole line of 10% gray can be encoded as [1 gray pixel, repeat 1920 times], instead of 10% gray - 10% gray - 10% gray, etc, for 1920 individual pixels. A test pattern likely has lots of perfectly even tonalities over significant areas, and that makes it easy for very significant compression. Add more detail, however, and especially randomness, and the file size goes way up. My fine-focus test images, with their widely distributed tiny patterns, don't compress well at all!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The shade of red for the "unsubscribed" channels and "cool vs. Warm" offsets as described above DID not match, nor were they as close as would be the case with slight differences in Offsets .... I even tried different settings for DCOL, and although the CT became "cooler" with DCOL=2 or 3, the shade of Red never did reach the same "coolness of red"(so to speak) that was there with the "warm" offset ("cooler" than netural).



Interesting. Well, maybe the "dynamic" DCOL algorithm is this: Apply a cool offset in inverse proportion to the amount of color (saturation). Thus, colors would be less affected than, say, pale or white objects, grays, etc.


But this would be awful, no? It would mean that a step-saturation scale of, say, reds, varying from 100% red at one end thru pinks to equivalent-brightness gray at the the other would also vary in hue! The less-saturated reds would drift a bit toward magenta as you moved away from pure red. That's a nonlinearity in color that seems unacceptable -- or does it fool the eye in some clever way? Hard to imagine . . .


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 32-31-30--32-31-30 is a warm, not cool, bias. So it should be a tad warmer, indeed.



Yes, with DCOL=0, and apparently(more or less it seemed, with perhaps an exception in the brighter tones - again don't trust my eyes enough for this) DCOL=1 as well.



> Quote:
> I assume you intended that this "Cool" offset-setup be warm, not cool.



What I was trying to see, is if DCOL=1 would more or less "offset" 32-31-30-32-31-30 .... or in other words, "equal" a "non-offset"(so to speak) of 31-31-31-31-31-31 and DCOL=0 since you had said/discovered in previous post(and looking at greyscale only, portions of my experiment #2 seemed to indicate the same thing) :



> Quote:
> So I set it to 1 and watched TV last evening. Seems equivalent to a usual conservative Cool offset of, say, 30-31-32 -- 30-31-32 and DCOL=0, at least at first try. Nothing weird; very discreet.



So, that's -1 offset from RDRV/RCUT, +1 from BDRV/BCUT, which might lead one to assume one effect of DCOL=1 might be to produce the same results as RDRV-1, BCUT +1, and all I was doing, in a sense was to "check" to see if such an assumption was true ... It wasn't ...


In other words, If an offset of 30-31-32-30-31-32 seems equivilent to DCOL=1 using 31-31-31-31-31-31, then I thought I'd check to see if an offset of +1 from RDRV/RCUT, -1 BDRV/BCUT(32-31-30-32-31-30) with DCOL=1 would be equivilent to 31-31-31-31-31-31/DCOL=0, which it wasn't.



> Quote:
> But it brings up a potential experiment: Set CT to Cool, then add, say, +2 of DCOL, and try to cancel it with warmish "Cool" offsets. When you can't see a difference when switching from Neutral, you can note the offset-settings that canceled it. Then install their opposite coolish equivalents temporarily for the Warm offsets for testing. The question then becomes: Are the Warm and Cool settings, thus configured, identical? Or is ther something else going on with the DCOL=2-only Cool setting.



Yes, I thought of trying that as well last night, just as I was hitting the hay, so to speak ...



> Quote:
> One tremendous value of the easy access to Sony's service mode that the set can be turned into a marvelous, UN-automatic display device with a few, simple changes.



Thank goodness! Additionally useful as well for those of us who have customized our pic modes ...



> Quote:
> Interesting. Well, maybe the "dynamic" DCOL algorithm is this: Apply a cool offset in inverse proportion to the amount of color (saturation). Thus, colors would be less affected than, say, pale or white objects, grays, etc.



That did very much look like what was happening, but again, I only looked at it with the Dish EPG screen, and didn't spend much time on it ... As I increased DCOL, the cooler CT that resulted was obvious in the whites/grays present, seemingly without the colors being as effected .....



> Quote:
> But this would be awful, no?



Yes, it would ... Don't know what's really going on with it at this point, though suppose it might take a little more work and experiments to come up with some sort of theory.


I suppose one might also want to consider the factory defaults for cool offset - RDOF~BCOF 31-31-34-31-31-34 and DCOL=1 --- perhaps also along with the Netural factory defaults for RDRV~BCUT ... Which, on my set at least(and apparently others whom have reported here) result in a quite cool CT for Neutral and cool offset ....


It seems to me the "warm offset"(my sets values match service code listing for the offsets, but not RDRV~BCUT) was probably setup such that factory adjustment of RDRV~BCUT would result in something "close" to 6500K CT (although unfortunetly it did not produce linear greyscale results on my particular set). And perhaps, one might assume, perhaps the RDRV~BCUT factory adjustment for "neutral" was also "supposed" to be for some particular CT, as well as some sort of "look" to result, and correspondingly, some sort of particular "look" for the "cool offset" ....


In which case, Just a thought(one which I doubt anyone will want to explore to much of an extent other than perhaps for short periods of experimentation!) perhaps one who is interested in sorting out what they may have been "going for" with the cool offset and use of DCOL=1 may have a better shot at it if they experiment with returning 1). RDRV~BCUT to the factory adjusted values, and the cool offset values to their defaults as well .... Then, perhaps one might also want to consider the Factory settings for the color decoder as well (RYR~GYB) .... Assuming(and this would probably be assuming a lot) of course the techs at the factory doing the adjustments on the set achieved the results Sony wanted ....


To be honest Ken, I only took a look at this a little as you asked for others thoughts and I had some extra time last night. At this point, from what I've seen so far can't think of why I might want to use anything for DCOL other than 0(and, my current cool offset of 29-31-32-29-31-32 seems to be working quite nicely for a cooler CT choice), so I'm afraid at this point I'm not very motivated to experiment further ... As allways, I Would be happy to double-check anything you discover on this, however ....


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, maybe the "dynamic" DCOL algorithm is this: Apply a cool offset in inverse proportion to the amount of color (saturation). Thus, colors would be less affected than, say, pale or white objects, grays, etc.



Yes, something like this seems to be happening, indeed. Inspired by Jeff's comments on the changes he saw in the red tones of a graphic, I set up my own similar experiment.


I think I now see what DCOL does. (Remember the infamous skin-tone correction on old TVs?) I set up Cool with all offsets at 31, but with DCOL at 2, a noticable cooling effect. I found I could almost exactly duplicate the effect for b/w images by setting Warm (temporarily) to 29-31-33--29-31-33. So, if I switched between Warm and Cool with a remote-click, and then back, I saw only the tiniest change in color -- less than one click of any of the color parameters.


So I turned Color back up to normal, and watched some regular TV, paying attention to what Warm/Cool switching did to red, green, and blue tones in the video. (Remember Cool = DCOL at 2.) Results:


(1) Switching from Warm to Cool intensified red slightly. People's faces, moreover, became slightly more colored (saturation increase -- one would expect the opposite). Switching from Neutral to Cool had essentially no effect on red and face tones. Switching Neutral to Warm desaturated them slightly. (Remember I've changed Warm temporarily to an orthodox cool setup.)


(2) Switching from Warm to Cool desaturated intense blue slightly. One would expect it to increase! So DCOL cools off all grays, but it emphasizes skin and similar tones _at the expense_ of their opposites.


(3) I found few good examples to test, but greens were least affected, very slightly desaturated when switching to Cool, again paradoxical.


So I think I get it, now. DCOL has two simultaneous effects that somebody on the Sony design team thought were beneficial together: A nice, even cooling of color temp is added to low-saturated tones, especially grays and white; and a skin-tone correction is added, making the effect of this cooling on normal warm colors nearly zero. Looks to me like "cooler, with added old-style skin-tone bias."


I'm having none of it! End of experiment. "Skin-tone correction" is the enemy of accurate color, having helped sell color television in an era when NTSC stood for "Never Twice the Same Color" and white points were set very cool. Like the optional "automatic" black-level correction available thru the BLK parameter and its dependent parameters -- part of Sony's "Dynamic Picture" feature," it is never required for high-quality viewing. (It bloody well doesn't occur in Nature, now does it!) Leave DCOL at 0.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Has anyone figured out if there is a way to decrease the amount of screen real estate taken up by the "side bars" when viewing 4x3 programming in "normal" screen mode on 16x9 DA-4 chassis sets(such as XBR960)?


I've been searching, but can't seem to find anything which will do what I want. I don't want to alter Horizontal size of the image in the 4x3 "area" which is displayed, I want to "get rid" of a portion of the "inside portion" of the side bars, which is in effect, "hiding" more than I want on the sides .... In other words, to effectively "unhide" a portion of the image which is being hidden by the "side bars".


Attached is an image of some screenshots which should, hopefully demonstrate why I'd like to find a way to do this. AT top of each image is a pattern displayed in the set's "full mode" (image fills the screen) at bottom is the pattern displayed while using the "normal" screen mode. Note: Well, yes the pattern in pics at bottom/left is different -- one is 4x3 NTSC video, the other is 16x9 NTSC video but should be the same as far as what is "hidden" on the sides.


As you can see, the "side bars" (Yeah, they might look weird to some as I have them set to be grey via MID1/BCOL=6 rather than the factory default of black and MID1/BCOL=0 - They're not as bright grey in the right pic due to the auto-exposure settings on the digital camera) when using "normal" screen mode are effectively causing a "synthetic" extra amount of overscan, whearas I'd like the "synthetic" overscan to "match" the ~4.5% overscan that is the case with "full" mode and a 16x9 image. And yes, I know I don't have the image centered "perfectly", vertically, I won't go into the reasons why I'm doing that at the current time other than to say, that basically I'm still trying to decide something.


Thanks for any input on this!


----------



## GlenC

Jeff, have you tried LBLK/RBLK in 2170D-3? Sounds like a blanking issue if it is adjustable. There appears to be a "1080" and "Other" setting. Many TVs have fixed 4:3 overscan.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Jeff, have you tried LBLK/RBLK in 2170D-3? Sounds like a blanking issue if it is adjustable. There appears to be a "1080" and "Other" setting. Many TVs have fixed 4:3 overscan.



Glen,


Yes -- LBLK/RBLK are the shutters(to keep the beam from striking edge of tube) which only effect the outer edge of the raster, including when "normal" screen mode is used. The 1080i setting is relevant on my set for 1080i "full" mode(maybe V Expand or H expand too or HD zoom, don't recall), "others" is relevant to "everything else", including "normal" screen mode, but again, only at the edge of the raster("behind" the bezel" so to speak unless you've reduced HSIZ to see the effect).


Only went through this quickly(and didn't write down which one it was) but There does appear to be a MID2 setting which allows adjustment of Horizontal size(and therefore 4x3 "overscan" so to speak for DRC processed signals - assume there is one that would work for 480p 4x3 as well in MID1) of only the "4x3" area without effecting the sidebars, however that would require reduced overscan on top and bottom, probably via adjustment of a MID2 Vertical size adjustment as well to maintain proper aspect ratio. And, I believe an adjustment of for example, MID2 DVRS would probably undesireably decrease vertical resolution l per info described in Post 1731 .


OTOH, other Vertical/Horizontal size controls I've come across effect the entire 16x9 "area", including the side bars when the 4x3 "normal" screen mode is used. In other words, it doesn't change what is "hidden" of the 4x3 frame behind those "side bars".


I guess what is annoying about this is occasionally bits of graphics/bugs get "cut off" from 4x3 SD/broadcast sources, and it's not an issue I've experienced with my other sets(such as Toshiba 34HF84/RCA F38310). Of course, the only "signals" of interest here are 480i or NTSC signals processed via DRC, or 480p 4x3 signals, and 1/2 of a percent extra overscan isn't really that big of a deal, I suppose ...



> Quote:
> Many TVs have fixed 4:3 overscan



I suppose what is nice about it is the width/size of the "side bars" NEVER change when a 480i or 480p 4x3 signal is viewed via the Normal screen mode, no matter the input or source used. Therefore, if uneven phosphor wear ever does become an issue in those "side bar" areas if the set is used for a lot of 4x3 viewing via "normal" mode, I suppose during several overnight periods one could send video black to the 4x3 area, and increase MID1/BCOL to say, "15"(results in white "side bar" area, BCOL=0 is black(default) during overnight periods to I would speculate, "even out" the uneven phosphor wear over several evenings(or several weeks/etc of overnight periods).


However, from what I've seen that's not really true for 4x3 video upconverted and sent by ATSC stations within 720p/1080i(16x9 of course) format(as you'd view it in "full" mode), as the "side bars" in this case are not the same width as what occurs with "normal" mode(these are usually sent with essentially NO overscan on the sides for instance.)


----------



## Den42

I've been working on getting my 4:3 32HS420 overscan/positioning corrected. Lots of great info in this thread!


With a 480 source, AVIA overscan image on the screen, I can use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 to set the canvas and use MID3 to set the image. I have it set for 2-3% overscan all the way around and it looks good.


For 1080i mode I'm using an Xbox 360 (set to 1080i of course







) with an USB stick. Image viewer displaying a scaling image that's 1920x1080


With a 1080i source my set kicks in the "enhanced 16:9" and letterboxes the output. If I use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 in this mode it raises and lowers the letterboxed "canvas" and the sizes can be changed. But MID3 has no effect. So I can resize the "canvas", but I can't adjust the overscan.


By looking at the values in the SM's in 1080i mode I can see they are different from the 480 mode values. It's just that values in MID3 do nothing if change them.


I tested around a bit and nothing seemed to do the trick. Am I missing something? Does it not allow MID3 changes because it's a 4:3 set in an enhanced mode? Anybody tackle this yet?


I noticed my model doesn't have the QM menu either which woulde be nice










EDIT: V6 used as input

Den


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Den42* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With a 480 source, AVIA overscan image on the screen, I can use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 to set the canvas and use MID3 to set the image. I have it set for 2-3% overscan all the way around and it looks good. With a 1080i source my set kicks in the "enhanced 16:9" and letterboxes the output. If I use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 in this mode it raises and lowers the letterboxed "canvas" and the sizes can be changed. But MID3 has no effect. So I can resize the "canvas", but I can't adjust the overscan.
> 
> 
> By looking at the values in the SM's in 1080i mode I can see they are different from the 480 mode values. It's just that values in MID3 do nothing if change them.



You should mention the exact video mode for 480. 480p and 480i are handled very differently inside the TV.


Please read the cautions expressed *here* . In particular, you must not use the settings in the MID groups for adjusting height, or you will run afoul of the precise scaling ratios that are specified for exactly matching the digital sampling of the video to the number of scan lines. I.e. leave VDVS set to their default values from the data charts (numbers like 135, 180, 60, 120). Vertical-size adjustments must be accomplished in the 2170D groups.


Note that for 1080i and other 16:9 display, the video material is technically not letterboxed; that is, no black bars are added to the video (using up scan lines). Rather, the entire vertical scan is compressed to the correct aspect ratio for 16:9, and all scan llines are really there, just as they would be on a widescreen TV. You can prove the point by cranking up the Brightness slider and noting that those "bars" above and below never glow because there's no scanning there. The height of this compressed raster is set in 2170D-1/ASPT, if the uncompressed 4:3 raster is already adjusted correctly for round circles, etc.


You can use the blanking shutters in 2170D-3, TBLK and BBLK to crop the 16:9 compressed raster as you wish. There are separate settings for 480 and 1080, and for compressed and full scan, so you should be able to customize it as you wish. The main reason for these "shutters" is to keep the electron beam from striking the side of the CRT, but in compressed mode the top and bottom shutters can act as a cropping tool. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this shutter thing -- it's been a year since I did this to my TV. I recall minimizing my overscan for compressed rasters.)


----------



## Den42




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You should mention the exact video mode for 480. 480p and 480i are handled very differently inside the TV.



480p with the chart from AVIA

1080i with the image from the Xbox360



> Quote:
> Please read the cautions expressed In particular, you must not use the settings in the MID groups for adjusting height, or you will run afoul of the precise scaling ratios that are specified for exactly matching the digital sampling of the video to the number of scan lines. I.e. leave VDVS set to their default values from the data charts (numbers like 135, 180, 60, 120). Vertical-size adjustments must be accomplished in the 2170D groups.



VDVS in 1080i mode is set to the default of 135. Took a bit to realize that you were listing the values for each mode



> Quote:
> Note that for 1080i and other 16:9 display, the video material is technically not letterboxed; that is, no black bars are added to the video (using up scan lines). Rather, the entire vertical scan is compressed to the correct aspect ratio for 16:9, and all scan llines are really there, just as they would be on a widescreen TV. You can prove the point by cranking up the Brightness slider and noting that those "bars" above and below never glow because there's no scanning there. The height of this compressed raster is set in 2170D-1/ASPT, if the uncompressed 4:3 raster is already adjusted correctly for round circles, etc.



Wasn't sure of the technical name for it, I was going to say 'compressed output' instead of letterbox. I do understand it's not fully scanning the screen though. That's why I was having a hard time trying to figure out how to correct it.



> Quote:
> You can use the blanking shutters in 2170D-3, TBLK and BBLK to crop the 16:9 compressed raster as you wish. There are separate settings for 480 and 1080, and for compressed and full scan, so you should be able to customize it as you wish. The main reason for these "shutters" is to keep the electron beam from striking the side of the CRT, but in compressed mode the top and bottom shutters can act as a cropping tool. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this shutter thing -- it's been a year since I did this to my TV. I recall minimizing my overscan for compressed rasters.)



That works! I re-adjusted and then set the shutters. Only thing is I have to watch on the top because the scan lines start to seperate on the top. I can only adjust so much and then there is distortion and then the seperation of the scan lines. I've got about 3% top and bottom and 2.5% on the sides. I have what looks like a UCP (UP COR PIN COR) problem up i'll have to look into.


I have some other stuff to fix. Here is a shot of the screen currently

EDIT:Not allowed to post URLs yet


Thank you for your help

Den


----------



## corlay

I've verified that my HS420 does not have internal test patterns in the SM.


So, what's my best option for calibrating *all* my inputs for color/hue, picture/brightness, etc.?


I can hook up the dvd player to run through RF (my cable tv input, via composite to the VCR player, and RF from VCR to TV...) and composite (my VCR input, direct from DVD player) and calibrate that way; but is that worthwhile?

This is reliant upon my dvd player to be consistient with the cable tv and vcr source signals regularly sent through those paths. Will it get me close?


--

corlay


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (Yeah, they might look weird to some as I have them set to be grey via MID1/BCOL=6 rather than the factory default of black and MID1/BCOL=0



Hey, Jeff?


I tried setting BCOL to a grayscale value to approximate the body color of my HS420,

to see if I liked that any better than Black; but I couldn't get the new value to save?


When I return to SM, it's reverted back to 0.


weird...


This setting is not marked with an asterix;

indicating temporary, and non-saveable in my models SM chart.

I wonder if it should be?...


--

corlay


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've verified that my HS420 does not have internal test patterns in the SM.



*Do* Keep in mind that for those sets that have them, those internal patterns are only 100% relevant to 1080i/480i/480p/720p signals coming from *ONLY* the internal ATSC/QAM tuners(and probably relevant(as it *mostly* seems anyway) from internal memory stick reader as well.


For instance --- While yes, it's true that ATSC/QAM tuners use the "RF" input so to speak --- HOWEVER --- there's no way to calibrate for NTSC SD analog signals from those patterns. And in this case, for "RF input" You have to calibrate for each source signal's input source's (scan rate - 480i/480p/720p/1080i ATSC, and for NTSC SD) Seperately.



> Quote:
> I can hook up the dvd player to run through RF (my cable tv input, via composite to the VCR player, and RF from VCR to TV...) and composite (my VCR input, direct from DVD player) and calibrate that way; but is that worthwhile?
> 
> This is reliant upon my dvd player to be consistient with the cable tv and vcr source signals regularly sent through those paths. Will it get me close?



I'd say it would probably be worthwhile, and *may* get you close(especially for your composite input sources), or perhaps closer concerning "RF input" if the RF input is already not fairly well calibrated "at the factory"(it really *should* have been, but you know how that goes ....).


But yes, that's reliant on your DVD player, which is one reason why I also hooked up my DVD player to other sets to see if I came up with the same "results". Luckily, concerning black/white levels -- via S-video or composite out from DVD, it does seem to fairly closely match other devices, including when I've tried it with other sets. Color wise it seems to be "spot on". I tried this experiment with another DVD player I own, however, and the results were not as good concerning black/white levels, but color was also "spot on" with it. Inany case, Hooking up my DVD player to s-video +calibarting with various test patterns from AVIA or DVE *seemed* to get me awfully close for the output from my Dish Network receiver and S-VHS deck hooked up via S-video.


If you do run into a problem, for instance with the black/white levels from your DVD player via composite out not "matching" your other devices, you'd then probably need to make adjustments by eye.


It would be difficult to impossible to explain exactly *how* I made some slight adjustments for "RF" input for color which *seemed* to have worked well ... In short, it involved some color bars being broadcast by NTSC station(received analog OTA) late at night(which were definitely "wrong" as being sent), and some "comparisions"(and assumptions) between the results from the internal NTSC tuner(via RF) *And* the NTSC tuner in the S-VHS deck via S-video(CV/YC) .... There was a *little* more to this -- but In short while not being completely accurate, *assuming* that the color balance as calibrated for CV/YC via s-video from DVD player was *close* for accurate color from the S-VHS deck's NTSC tuner, I then adjusted RF input's 2103-1 color settings(while using RGBS) so that the NTSC color bars from "RF" input *matched* the results from NTSC color bars from the S-VHS deck's tuner ... It was sort of difficult working this way, since it was obvious the color bars were "wrong" as being sent by the station -- so, instead of how you would "normally" adjust for color balance while looking at color bars and using RGBS, I was instead having to match the results via RF to be the same "color balance mismatch" as was occuring via S-video ....


I *still* consider those color settings I've done for "RF" input highly "experimental" and "subject to revision"(and I plan to revisit them, hopefully if I can catch more accurate color bars being sent by a local station). However, it does seem to produce very good results from what I can tell .... For instance .. I know via info from the station engineer that one station in my area(a state wide PBS "affiliate" network with a statewide network of transmitters) sends/distributes the datastream to each transmitter site from their network center via their statewide STL(studio-transmitter link) network, which is then "passed along"(without being decoded/reencoded at transmitter site) by the digital station's transmitter to be decoded on the user end -- For the analog station, at each transmitter site, the stream from the network center is decoded, and one of the SD services(they are multicasting several, with HD as well in the evening) is decoded and output as NTSC from the decoder+sent to the analog transmitter -- Therefore -- It's setup so the video signal from the analog station *should* be "pretty much" the same as the SD digital service --- And, It "pretty much" is (including color wise, and black/white level wise/etc/etc) when I switch between the two ....


Probably doesn't make much sense, but hopefully it helps in some way ...

--

corlay[/quote]


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey, Jeff?
> 
> 
> I tried setting BCOL to a grayscale value to approximate the body color of my HS420,
> 
> to see if I liked that any better than Black; but I couldn't get the new value to save?
> 
> 
> When I return to SM, it's reverted back to 0.
> 
> 
> weird...
> 
> 
> This setting is not marked with an asterix;
> 
> indicating temporary, and non-saveable in my models SM chart.
> 
> I wonder if it should be?...
> 
> 
> --
> 
> corlay



I don't know -- It may be temporary/not saved on your set -- For my model's chart(KD34XBR960), it shows up in Green shading, and without an asterix.


That being said -- The first time I adjusted it, I *did* run into some problems getting it to "stick" - In fact, I experienced the same thing as you the first time I changed it. And, although I didn't take the best most "precise" notes concerning exactly what happened, farther below(below first dotted line) are the notes I did manage to take on it, and how I got it "to work" -- Note: IF I recall correctly -- what actually did the trick and got it to start "working" was I had to input a value other than "0" when I had "full" screen mode up on the screen - which definitely seemed odd, as of course, there is *NO* effect from this setting with "full" or any of the "zoom" modes ....


Since then, I've twiddled it several times to slightly different values(only for the screen modes it effects -- "normal" and "twin view"- for twin view, it gives you a "grey" background, you have two windows in middle of screen) and never had a problem with the new value "sticking".


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From my "XBR960SM changes file" :


MID1:


Default in parentheses:


#24 - BCOL - 6 (0 )


BCOL set to 6 For All screen modes/Inputs - I.e. for "Normal", "Twin View"(for others) and (I think) "full"


NOTE: In order for this to "stick" for "normal"(and not go back to 0/black - even though it still SAID 6) for some strange reason, EVEN though it was showing up as "6" no matter what AR mode I used, I had to enter 6 and press Mute-Enter for one of the other AR manipulation modes -- I think it was "full" but may have been one of the other ones, instead.


====================================


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you do run into a problem, for instance with the black/white levels from your DVD player via composite out not "matching" your other devices, you'd then probably need to make adjustments by eye.



That's ok. Color/Hue is the grouping that I just can't seem to 'eyeball' very well. But if I can get that set via calibration with DVE, then I can flip-flop between RF and another source to manually set Picture/Brightness.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In short, it involved some color bars being broadcast by NTSC station(received analog OTA) late at night(which were definitely "wrong" as being sent),



Yeah, my local NBC station broadcasts the NTSC color bars after ~2:00am; and I actually stayed up one night and calibrated RF to that. It differed by 2-3 clicks for UCOF and 1-2clicks for UHOF from my DVE calibrated component input. I lived with it for a few days, and decided that it looked like total ****. The ABC station looked OK, but all the rest (all 13 of 'em. WHOOHOO!) were hard to look at. So, for now, I've just set all of my input paths that I'm currently using (RF, Composite) to the Component settings...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Probably doesn't make much sense, but hopefully it helps in some way ...



I admit - not easy to follow. But I get the jist of it, I think...


--

corlay


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> NOTE: In order for this to "stick" for "normal"(and not go back to 0/black - even though it still SAID 6) for some strange reason, EVEN though it was showing up as "6" no matter what AR mode I used, I had to enter 6 and press Mute-Enter for one of the other AR manipulation modes -- I think it was "full" but may have been one of the other ones, instead.



Thanks!


I'll try that tonight...


--

corlay


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've verified that my HS420 does not have internal test patterns in the SM.
> 
> 
> So, what's my best option for calibrating *all* my inputs for color/hue, picture/brightness, etc.?
> 
> 
> I can hook up the dvd player to run through RF (my cable tv input, via composite to the VCR player, and RF from VCR to TV...) and composite (my VCR input, direct from DVD player) and calibrate that way; but is that worthwhile?
> 
> This is reliant upon my dvd player to be consistient with the cable tv and vcr source signals regularly sent through those paths. Will it get me close?
> 
> 
> --
> 
> corlay



The way I handled this was to use the test patterns provided by INHD via Comcast. The "show" was called (IN)HD Tune Up and was broadcast every Saturday morning at 7:00 eastern time. There were test patterns for contrast, brightness, color and hue. They also had a pattern for convergence that can almost be used for sharpness. They also included audio test patterns for HT set-up.


Fortunately I recorded this show, as I haven't seen it on lately. I understand HDNet also broadcasts a similar show.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The way I handled this was to use the test patterns provided by INHD via Comcast. The "show" was called (IN)HD Tune Up and was broadcast every Saturday morning at 7:00 eastern time. There were test patterns for contrast, brightness, color and hue. They also had a pattern for convergence that can almost be used for sharpness. They also included audio test patterns for HT set-up.
> 
> 
> Fortunately I recorded this show, as I haven't seen it on lately. I understand HDNet also broadcasts a similar show.



That's great to calibrate for 1080i(from internal ATSC/QAM tuner via cablecard or as *specific* to your cable STB via component or HDMI) ---- however, I don't believe any of that would be relevent to NTSC SD analog signals via RF input, or via composite input - except perhaps to some extent if you are referring to hooking up a cable STB via s-video or composite input and sending a 480i/SD signal from the STB to the TV to make use of those patterns, or sending 480i SD/NTSC to a DVR VCR/etc. for calibration of the input used with VCR ....


Completetly different SM settings per SCAN rate of source signal(480i, 1080i/etc), in some cases even different scan rates coming through the *same* input ..... For instance ... 2170P-3 has "specific" settings per scan rate, such as for example, UBOF (black level offset) for *each* scan rate via "RF" input (NTSC SD, 480i,480p,720p,1080i HD. Different 2170P4 color saturation/HUE settings per different scan rate. *some* settings are not only "different" for scan rate, but are different for input as well --- different settings for say, 1080i via Component, HDMI OR from the internal ATSC/QAM tuner.


Note that in the SM/code charts, "RF" refers to only the sets' NTSC OTA/Cable ready tuner --- However -- Signals from the sets NTSC OTA/Cable ready tuner, the set's internal ATSC/QAM tuner(could be 480i/480p/720p/1080i) all pass through only a single(or two) "inputs" (either Antenna or cable on back of set) so to speak, with only one set of settings to use for both those inputs on back of set via the user menu controls(sharpness, contrast, brightness sliders/etc) ....


Also, for example --- "RF" and CV/YC(composite and s-video) have several specific(to each) color and "contrast" related settings in 2103-1. 2103-1 settings Don't effect 1080i at all, even those signals coming through the same "RF input" (such as from the internal tuners) and having only 1 set of values available via the user menu controls. Also, 480p, 720p, and 1080i are effected by various 2171CXA chip settings, 480i/NTSC signals go nowhere near that chip ....


OTOH, I do have some of the HDnet patterns(1920x1080i) on MS you mention, and they do seem to match up well given a calibration for 1080i ATSC via the internal ATSC QM test patterns.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can hook up the dvd player to run through RF (my cable tv input, via composite to the VCR player, and RF from VCR to TV...) and composite (my VCR input, direct from DVD player) and calibrate that way; but is that worthwhile?
> 
> This is reliant upon my dvd player to be consistient with the cable tv and vcr source signals regularly sent through those paths. Will it get me close?



Oops! another thought on this I forgot to mention earlier, as I think I misunderstood what you were saying a bit ... You know, I'm not so sure I'd trust the RF modulator in a DVD player or VCR for "accurate" color, but then again, who knows it might work to get you "close" for the RF input ...


And, I'd also probably want to run the output direct from the DVD player to the TV (whether via composite, s-video or RF) ...


Also, You may not get the same(or accurate, or "as accurate") results for instance via the VCR's input and running "through" the VCR in "real time" vs the VCR's tuner, or hooking DVD player directly to TV, or, for example making a recording and playing the tape ...


If I recall correctly(and I may not be), it may turn out that you may also run into some "copy protection" snafu's(so to speak) using the VCR's input in such a manner ...


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's great to calibrate for 1080i(from internal ATSC/QAM tuner via cablecard or as *specific* to your cable STB via component or HDMI) ---- however, I don't believe any of that would be relevent to NTSC SD analog signals via RF input, or via composite input - except perhaps to some extent if you are referring to hooking up a cable STB via s-video or composite input and sending a 480i/SD signal from the STB to the TV to make use of those patterns, or sending 480i SD/NTSC to a DVR VCR/etc. for calibration of the input used with VCR ......



My mistake.










I thought he was trying to directly calibrate his HD input in the absense of internal test patterns.


Oh well...


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For instance --- While yes, it's true that ATSC/QAM tuners use the "RF" input so to speak --- HOWEVER --- there's no way to calibrate for NTSC SD analog signals from those patterns. And in this case, for "RF input" You have to calibrate for each source signal's input source's (scan rate - 480i/480p/720p/1080i ATSC, and for NTSC SD) Seperately.



I don't have a color-bar generator for standard analog RF, but I am pleased with the adjustments I have made. In summary:


(1) I note that analog-RF station-to-station differences are greater than any error I am likely to incur from mis-adjusting color, or rather using other inputs to adjust it, assuming adequacy for RF. So . . .


(2) I used alignment DVDs to adjust my component and HDMI inputs for my Panasonic S97 player.


(3) I used the built-in patterns to adjust HD 1080i and 720p for color and hue.


(4) I made initial adjustments to color and hue for 480i from the built-in test patterns.


(5) I note that local analog-cable studio broadcasts and high-quality network feeds are generally dead-on in color and hue, according to my eyes. Occasionally I reduce Color a bit. I can't ask for more. And I consider it perfectly normal when switching to (for example) MTV "reality" programming to (a) make a big adjustment to the black level, and (b) reduce color a lot, maybe from 31 to 25. So much for standards! Same with much of PBS-SD.


(6) Previous to all of this, I found my set's "RF" adjustments to be rather well-set out-of-the-box. When I got various color parameters tweaked with the DVD test disks, RF sort of fell into place. Maybe that was just good luck.


The bottom line is that, as long as good big-network and local-studio feeds look good, I am willing to tolerate a lot of variation from the other analog cable channels, and just tweak the controls on the fly. I simply don't hold those broadcasts to the same standards as big-budget DVDs and HD broadcast, or even DVD releases of older films (which I like a lot).


An addendum: I'm sorry to hear from Jeff that his local color bars gave such poor results! One time I stumbled on color bars on the Travel Channel on analog cable. You can't imagine how quickly I got into service mode and quickly shut down various color guns to see how things looked! To my surprise, color pretty much looked well-adjusted -- not that I think Travel Channel is a perfect example (although lately they are much better than a year ago!), but those bars were pure serendipity. I haven't a clue where to find more bars on the usual analog cable channels.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JustSc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My mistake.
> 
> 
> I thought he was trying to directly calibrate his HD input in the absense of internal test patterns.



No problem .. BTW ... I was hoping my earlier response didn't seem "standoffish", as I certianly did not intend it to be ... but, I know it's difficult to judge "intent" on a forum such as this, hence why I'm "commenting" on it here(probably unnecessarily) ...


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> An addendum: I'm sorry to hear from Jeff that his local color bars gave such poor results! .



Well, it seems rare here to catch color bars up from NTSC stations, at least with my schedule. It just so happened that when I did, it was from a station which at the time wasn't sending accurate colorimetry. And as you say, the video "quality"(colorimetry, black levels/etc) can vary greatly among such sources .... Probably also doesn't help some of these stations seem to think it's a good idea to have their own "look" .....


Don't think I've ever caught test patterns up from any of the services I receive via satellite(dish network receiver via CV/YC- s-video), besides a quick pattern up from NASATV occasionally(but not long enough to get into SM and use the 3dcomb "FRZE" control to "freeze it" before it disappears!), and I've missed anything like that so far on the travel channel ...


Now ... OTOH, I *have* on occasion caught *dead on* color bars up from local ATSC broadcast sources -- 480i SD "subchannels", and HD color bars from CBS HD network feed when a MCO neglected to switch from the network feed to local after a night of HD programming/etc ....


In fact, at one point I had recorded some color bars which were up on a PBS stations 480i SD subchannel to S-VHS(via an external ATSC decoder sending 480i via S-video to the VCR). Among other things involving another set(the set the external "HD" ATSC tuner/decoder is hooked up to via component connections)this allowed me to seemingly *confirm*, in a sense my calibration of color of the XBR960's CV/YC (Svideo) input - which I had performed with a DVD player(Avia/DVE color tests) hooked up to S-Video input making use of RGBS as well, of course. I wasn't sure whether it would work or not, and must say I was a bit surprised the S-VHS recording *did* match my color calibartion with DVD player via S-video. Given what I see colorwise with *real* programming from Sat receiver also hooked up to S-Video, I must also assume the calibration via the DVD player hooked to s-video worked well for it also ...


Might have to hook up the S-VHS deck to RF input, and via the VCR's RF modulator at some point see what those color bars look like(I think I still have it) just for the heck of it ...



> Quote:
> (6) Previous to all of this, I found my set's "RF" adjustments to be rather well-set out-of-the-box. When I got various color parameters tweaked with the DVD test disks, RF sort of fell into place. Maybe that was just good luck.



Didn't have to do much for CV/YC or RF here, either. For that matter, Colorwise --- Other than RYR~GYB adjustment, and adjustment of CBOF/CROF offsets(couldn't use color bars/color decoding tests for CBOF/CROF adjustment of course - using video black and color/brightness sliders worked well though, along with tests with "real" B&W programming) . ---------- My color adjustments from factory values have been very slight for all used inputs/scan rates -- For instance ... only needed to make slight adjustements to 2170P4 SCOL for *any* used input, and didn't need to change 2170P4 SHUE for anything(for color/Hue sliders 31/0). Based on others reports I assume most sets will *not* require this, but I did also need to do a very slight adjustment to 2171cxa CBGN~YGN (CBGN~CRGN being the relevant "color" seettings) - to "4-4-4" from factory value of "4-5-5" - colorwise, involving for a slight imbalance for 480p/720p/1080i signals via ATSC internal tuner+ 480p Via DVD via V5/V6 component which was occuring.


Color decoding wise -- Concerning RF+CV/YC for NTSC SD sources -- Just some slight tweaks to 2103-1 SHUE/SCOL were necessary after adjusting 2170P4 SCOL for 480i DRC(no change for SHUE needed) via color tests from DVD+ a couple of QM 480i patterns - as of course all 480i DRC processed sources(including NTSC from RF and CV/YC) share the same 2170P4 SCOL/SHUE setting. I first did it with the P2170-3 offsets, but later decided to do it in 2103-1 instead, which if I recall correctly allowed for a little "finer" control -- and of course similar adjustments were needed in 2103-2 for the right twin view window ... The latter might seem overly obsessive, but, since I do use it occasionally -- it did bother me when the L+R twinview windows did not "match" each other with the factory settings when the same input source was used for both .... I certianly won't be making slight tweaks for posisitioning of L+R twinview windows(or index, favorites/"freeze"/etc) via MID3 VDHP/VDVE controls however!


Really, the *most* significant change/improvement for me for color decoding resulted from adjusting 2170P4 RYR~GYB from factory values to 14-14-6-4 (I also have RYR~GYB set to 13-15-5-3 for the other user menu color-axis choice - although I rarely(well, pretty much never) actually use it. It *did* take me a while to decide on 14-15-6-4 vs 14-14-6-4 ... but after several weeks, based mostly on slight differences in flesh tones - decided on 14-14-6-4, even though I *thought* I acheived slightly better results with 14-15-6-4 via avia/DVE color tests, as well as similar tests I did via MS and the internal "QM" patterns .....


NTSC wise, I use "RF input" solely for analog OTA broadcasts, which of course, as scheduled now(at least from "full service" stations) will be going away in a few years .... Although, currently I certianly do appreciate a high quality NTSC broadcast, and often still use it for the 23 local NTSC stations(full service and low power) I receieve mostly excellent quality signals from OTA. For example, in many cases, and for various reasons I seem to prefer the "look" of the NTSC video vs. what I get from a digital station's when they are upconverting the analog plant's NTSC SD signal to 720p/1080i ....


I assume(hope anyway) once we get closer to analog shut off, stations(in my area at least) will begin to pay a little more attention to the quality of their digital broadcasts during times when the Network HD feed isn't active ....


In any case, I'm also very happy with the results I've come up with on all used inputs/scan rates, including RF input for OTA NTSC broadcast sources.


----------



## KenTech

I have a geometry issue I'd like some help with, if anyone has any fresh ideas. There may be no perfect solution.


If I set vertical linearity for 480i full-screen to be just perfect, using the usual patterns (crosshatch, circles, etc.), and adjusting the usual service-mode parameters (2170D-1: VLIN, VSCO, UVLN, LVLN), the display is then not linear in 1080i HD-braodcast mode. The center is stretched, and moving film credits swell as they pass the middle of the screen and shrink as they disappear off the top. Interestingly, 960i and 480p in 16:9 (DVD-anamorphic) mode is fine, tracking the 4:3 settings. It's the damn HD that's screwed up.


I have juggled VSCO and the two _VLN parameters to lessen the stretch on HD and add a little center compression on SD, which I don't seem to notice much. But that seems like a poor workaround.


So the burning question is: Is there a setting for 1080i I'm missing that tweaks linearity for that mode relative to the 480/960i modes? (Maybe this problem doesn't appear at all on widescreen sets, although my 16:9 480p raster should mimic that condition.)


I'm not thinking there's a solution in any of the MID groups, since those are exclusively digital scaling, positioning, and superimposing functions. In 2170D-2 there are UCP, LCP, UXCG, LXCG, UXCP, and UXLP parameters that affect only PIN correction in the corners. The raster-mode switch (a deflection parameter) is hiding as IDSW in 2170P-4, but I don't see anything else there related to deflection. I can't guess what 2170D-4/VLNL and VLNH do.


I'm out of ideas. Any suggestions?


----------



## GlenC

Ken,


Speed bumps are really annoying and time consuming to eliminate because there are so many adjustments that interact.


Have you tried the UVLN/LVLN (upper/lower vertical linearity) after setting 1080i? VSCO may apply too. I don't have one here, so I can't verify the function. You might get linearity correct for 1080i, and adjust ULVN/LVLN to correct 4:3. This may also interact with vertical size adjustments and the VSZO for 1080i.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you tried the UVLN/LVLN (upper/lower vertical linearity) after setting 1080i? VSCO may apply too. I don't have one here, so I can't verify the function. You might get linearity correct for 1080i, and adjust ULVN/LVLN to correct 4:3. This may also interact with vertical size adjustments and the VSZO for 1080i.



They all apply in both scan modes, and they all interact. I have become thoroughly familiar with these basic adjustments, and the point is that a good set of adjustments for 480i is somewhat off for 1080i, unless there is a "trick" I haven't discovered yet.


An example: VSCO is "s-correction" along the vertical axis, stretching or compressing the center third of the scrren relative to the top and bottom. But the action of UVLN/LVLN is similar, but not exactly the same. I have tried various combinations of VSCO, VLIN, VSIZ, and UVLN/LVLN -- there is more than one set of numbers that looks just fine on, say, 480. But they all suffer from the same basic problem: A perfect raster set for 4:3 or 16:9 480i/p suffers a bit from top and bottom compression in 1080i 16:9. SInce the vertical scan rate is the same, I can't imagine what changes! If the scan is perfectly linear for 60Hz vertical rate for 480, why would it become nonlinear for 1080? Only the horizontal scan is changed.


It may come down to the compromise: Which is more obnoxious, compression at top and bottom on HD, or a little stretch top and bottom on 480 full-screen? My interim solution is to split the error, minimizing the HD distortions. Not bad. But you'd think that there would be separate registers for a couple of these parameters for this TV's two scan modes (540 and 480 lines, 60Hz).


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GeminiEntity* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Cause I hit 8 by itself (I think 8, could have been 7 or 9 though), but pretty sure it was 8 due to me using the button 5 at the time when I saw "reset" pop up in green. I stopped right away and didn't do anything else.
> 
> 
> I'm just wondering now if maybe the XBR970 is a bit different for the dangerous buttons, or is it normal for "reset" to pop up from 1 dangerous button press? With 3 only being for the save feature.



I just reviewed the 960's service-manual pages for navigating service mode. It seems that all dangerous actions (e.g. the "bad" INI function) require three button-presses. They start with 7 and include 9 or Jump as button #2. I have seen an unwanted RESET message pop up when I accidentally press only one button. I'll check later today to see what that button might be. I think it's 8.


In any case, you did exactly the right thing by stopping when you saw something unfamiliar pop up. This happens to me occasionally, and I just freeze! In a couple of seconds, the screen reverts to SERVICE, and you're fine.


The service manual for the 970's predescessors does not document any two-button combinations that are dangerous. 0 - Enter (displays READ) just restores the settings that were last-saved and is essential before making changes you wish to save. (It erases any haphazard diddling that may have preceded your intent to save some settings. It's best to READ the saved settings, make the new settings, then WRITE them. That way you don't accidentally save something unintended.)


I believe I have read in this forum that 8 brings up RESET, and it's not documented in the manual. But I recall that it's the same as the user-menu function: It sets the user menus back to factory defaults and does not affect any service-mode parameters. I would search for this message in this thread to see what that person wrote. I have never used the RESET function, as it makes me nervous and I have had no _reason_ to use it.


(Sony has no incentive to change service-mode navigation for the 960-970 model update. They would upset a lot of service people, too!)


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (Maybe this problem doesn't appear at all on widescreen sets, although my 16:9 480p raster should mimic that condition.)?



FWIW, *Vertical* linearity *matches up* on my XBR960 for all the different scan rates/screen modes(per crosshatch patterns via 480i/480p/DVD, and 1080i MS/QM patterns) .....


The issue I have involves Horizontal linearity(per all scan rates/screen modes) issue in about the middle(existing from top to bottom) of the "right 1/2" and "Left 1/2" of screen , and there doesn't seem to be a way to get it "perfect" .... Athough can't say it's something I notice is a problem while watching programming.


As I believe I've mentioned previously -- Oddly enough, it seems "HCNT" setting does effect it slightly(VERY slightly), even when HPOS is adjusted to center the image. So, I get *slightly* improved Horizontal Linearity using "HCNT=40"(needs HPOS=25 to achieve the same "image" centering result as HPOS=27 for HCNT=38) vs HCNT=38(needs HPOS=27 for proper centering of image), the latter which "centers" the raster and was the factory default. It is so slight of an improvement in H linearity(and pretty much requires careful measurement of crosshatch "boxes" to detect it), however that for other reasons, I think I've pretty much settled on "centering the raster" with HCNT=38 ...



> Quote:
> a good set of adjustments for 480i is somewhat off for 1080i ..



I have run into an alltoghether(seemingly) "different" issue with this .. Small distortions in vertical lines several inches down from upper right/left corners of screen which are *barely* there or noticable for 480i/p to some, slight extent, but are worse/much more apparent with 1080i/720p ... These distortions are somewhat "annoying", but effect such a small area of screen(although the "bends" involved don't *seem* all that small) that although they are effected somewhat by various settings (SLIN, UCP/etc), there seems to be no way to entirely "fix it" with SM settings ... They are especially annoying on the upper left side of screen via the 720p/1080i internal "QM" section sweep patterns, and the left vertical lines in the "banner info box" that displays program/ratings info/etc from EPG info sent via something called "PSIP" by ATSC broadcast stations/etc .....



====================================


Having dealt with geometry/linearity issues on three different models of "flat-screen" Direct-View CRT HD displays I've owned so far, and pretty much a lack of such issues(and ease of adjustments concerning the slight issues that were present) on an RCA F38310 (38" 16x9 HD DV-CRT) with a CURVED tube : I must say, In this regard I liked the "curved tube" set better ...


----------



## ELBEBE1000

some one heard about the sony xbr 400 or any other that we can apply also?


----------



## corlay

anyone see any harm in a calibrated SBRT value of 19?


This is due to my 480i output from my DVD player being *much brighter* than 480p. So, I've settled on UBOF=0 for 480i, and UBOF=5 for 480p on V5/V6. My other signal paths fall in between with RF @ UBOF=2 and CY/CV @ UBOF=3.


I've read here that re-caibrating the *DRV/*CUT values with SRBT @ 31-ish may produce better results? Is this the general concensus? Just wanted to be sure before I go and jack with those settings... My range for *DRV/*CUT settings now are ~18 - ~45. If I'm understanding the relationships correctly, raising SBRT will force me to *lower* that range, correct? Some folks had reported optimal results with those values pushed higher, rather than lower; which is why I'm concerned.


I'm leaning toward just leaving well enough alone...


--

corlay


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> anyone see any harm in a calibrated SBRT value of 19?
> 
> 
> This is due to my 480i output from my DVD player being *much brighter* than 480p. So, I've settled on UBOF=0 for 480i, and UBOF=5 for 480p on V5/V6. My other signal paths fall in between with RF @ UBOF=2 and CY/CV @ UBOF=3.
> 
> 
> I've read here that re-caibrating the *DRV/*CUT values with SRBT @ 31-ish may produce better results? Is this the general concensus? Just wanted to be sure before I go and jack with those settings... My range for *DRV/*CUT settings now are ~18 - ~45. If I'm understanding the relationships correctly, raising SBRT will force me to *lower* that range, correct? Some folks had reported optimal results with those values pushed higher, rather than lower; which is why I'm concerned.
> 
> 
> I'm leaning toward just leaving well enough alone...
> 
> 
> --
> 
> corlay



I think the general consensus is that SBRT is the exact same adjustment as the Brightness adjustment from the main menu, so no, it shouldn't matter at all.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've read here that re-caibrating the *DRV/*CUT values with SRBT @ 31-ish may produce better results? Is this the general concensus?



I agree with RWetmore that you're probably just fine. What none of know for sure is where these scaling parameters (SBRT, Brightness menu, the RDRV~BCUT settings, etc.) are applied in the processing chain. There is always the possibility that a high setting before an amplification or filtering stage, "compensated" by a low setting after that stage, may cause over-driving of that intermediate stage, resulting in some nonlinearity. If the processing ir purely digital, likely there's no problem. And the internal computation may simply add together (digitally) the SBRT and Brightness settings, which means they are equivalent.


But we know none of this _for sure_. I have simply followed my engineer's instincts, looked at Sony's default settings, and aimed for values near the middle of the range for certain parameters, such as the _DRV and _CUT settings. My TV came with SBRT set at 16 or 18 (a bad case of black crush!), and I had to increase it. But if your set looks good with SBRT at 19, I'd leave it be. I'm more suspicious of other parameters being at the extremes, maybe _DRV and _CUT, but not SBRT + Brightness.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GeminiEntity* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Another thing, you said that the notes are in order of importance. So I should start with color and black level, then gamma, then brightness, etc?



I confess that the order is merely the order it occurred to me to write those articles. (I assume that's what you're referring to.) Many of the realms of adjustment, e.g. black level, Picture (contrast), gamma, are completely independent. Others, such as grayscale and color temperature, are intimately intertwined. (Hm. Interesting metaphor.) I guess I started with what I perceived as fundamentals, then went on to refine the adjustments as I got smarter -- the image-processing, for example.


> Quote:
> I can't seem to find though anything to fix my geometry problems, is that located somewhere in this thread?



Several folks, including me, have posted suggestions about geometry. I dealt formally with focus and convergence, but I personally kept putting off formal comments about geometry until way after those initial articles. Meanwhile, other folks stepped in to answer questions and help -- you just have to search for the posts.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Sorry for the OT post, but I submitted a post a while ago in which I stated that some of my adjustments in the 2170D-1 menu stopped having an effect (VCEN and VPIN in particular.)

Now, to my horror, I recently discovered that the Vertical Tilt and Centering adjustments in the User Menu don't respond to adjustment either. I haven't come across any other SM adjustments that have lost their effectiveness. Any ideas as to where this problem could be based?


Thanks in advance for any help.


Regards,


Bryan


p.s. I will post in the 955 owners thread as well. MOD please delete this post if it is misplaced.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> I can't seem to find though anything to fix my geometry problems, is that located somewhere in this thread



Someone posted a pdf file of the geometry adjustment diagrams in the service manual here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8075525


----------



## KenTech

Right. May be the same thing, but you can also check out posts nos. 33 and 78, too. It's important to follow the procedure, using Sony's service-manual procedure to (a) center the raster on the tube; then (b) center the video frame on the raster. The other adjustments proceed from there (linearity, aspect ration, overscan, pincushion, etc.).


----------



## raaj

KenTech,


I opened a thread about the color depth supported by Sony XBR910 using its DVI input, but no one seemed to even look at it.


Do you know what color depth is supported by the XBR910 tube? I am specifically refering to the ability (or lack thereof) of DVI in general or XBR910 with DVI in particular to display Blacker Than Black and Whiter Than White signals.


Do you know?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raaj* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I opened a thread about the color depth supported by Sony XBR910 using its DVI input, but no one seemed to even look at it.
> 
> 
> Do you know what color depth is supported by the XBR910 tube? I am specifically refering to the ability (or lack thereof) of DVI in general or XBR910 with DVI in particular to display Blacker Than Black and Whiter Than White signals.



I know know only that it is widely acknowledged that the sets having HDMI inputs support the full HDMI definition. Although I have read the description, I have no savvy about the distinction between DVI and HDMI. I think DVI is a subset, meaning its capabilities are contained _within_ HDMI.


But does the 910 support the full HDMI spec? The later 32-36XS955 and XBR960s do, indeed.


You can read the spec. I seem to recall that it's at least 8-bit (for DVI), maybe 10-bit luminance resolution (for HDMI) -- there are a certain number of bits supported. I believe "black" is supplied by the signal source to a certain standard, or not, and it's not up to the TV. Example: My Panasonic S97 DVD player does not support BTB and WTW out of the box; you have to fudge the "brightness" up and "contrast" down in the player to allow for a couple of those extra levels. The TV is simply displaying what it is fed.


The specifications of DVI and of HDMI are easily available on the Internet. For the video source, I believe black is typically defined, not as digital zero, but as a low number -- 16? And white is not 255 but something less -- 239 or 235? It's the TV's job to display all levels from 0 to 255. If the source has black at zero, then there's no possibility for BTB; if it's 16, BTB is possible, and the TV is adjusted for proper black level = 16.


Bottom line: The TV's job is to potentially display all the bit-levels sent to it. How they're defined is up to the source, but you get to determine on the TV what level is displayed as "black" (SBRT and other black-level offsets, plus the Brightness slider).


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> . . . some of my adjustments in the 2170D-1 menu stopped having an effect (VCEN and VPIN in particular.)
> 
> Now, to my horror, I recently discovered that the Vertical Tilt and Centering adjustments in the User Menu don't respond to adjustment either. I haven't come across any other SM adjustments that have lost their effectiveness. Any ideas as to where this problem could be based?



Something has changed, and the question is what. Has a wire come loose? Has a chip died?


If the centering and tilt, etc, are provided by physical magnetic coils _separate_ from the main deflection coils (I don't know), their connection could have gone awry. If those geometry corrections are internally computed and added to the (still working) deflection currents (I'll put money on that), then something more subtle may have happened. In either case, it sound to me like it's a service issue. I am unaware that there's any service-mode settings that "locks out" changes to these parameters in software. I'll look at the circuit schematics to see if those functions are on a separate circuit board that may have come loose, but I doubt it. I think all deflection stuff is integrated on one board.


----------



## raaj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I know know only that it is widely acknowledged that the sets having HDMI inputs support the full HDMI definition. Although I have read the description, I have no savvy about the distinction between DVI and HDMI. I think DVI is a subset, meaning its capabilities are contained _within_ HDMI.
> 
> 
> But does the 910 support the full HDMI spec? The later 32-36XS955 and XBR960s do, indeed.
> 
> 
> You can read the spec. I seem to recall that it's at least 8-bit (for DVI), maybe 10-bit luminance resolution (for HDMI) -- there are a certain number of bits supported. I believe "black" is supplied by the signal source to a certain standard, or not, and it's not up to the TV. Example: My Panasonic S97 DVD player does not support BTB and WTW out of the box; you have to fudge the "brightness" up and "contrast" down in the player to allow for a couple of those extra levels. The TV is simply displaying what it is fed.
> 
> 
> The specifications of DVI and of HDMI are easily available on the Internet. For the video source, I believe black is typically defined, not as digital zero, but as a low number -- 16? And white is not 255 but something less -- 239 or 235? It's the TV's job to display all levels from 0 to 255. If the source has black at zero, then there's no possibility for BTB; if it's 16, BTB is possible, and the TV is adjusted for proper black level = 16.
> 
> 
> Bottom line: The TV's job is to potentially display all the bit-levels sent to it. How they're defined is up to the source, but you get to determine on the TV what level is displayed as "black" (SBRT and other black-level offsets, plus the Brightness slider).



Ken, thank you very much for your input. I need to investigate this a bit more. May be I will burn a PC level "blacker than black" and "video level" black (16) in a test pattern on a disc, and display it on my tv. It will be interesting to see what happens.


Thanks, anyway.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raaj* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need to investigate this a bit more. May be I will burn a PC level "blacker than black" and "video level" black (16) in a test pattern on a disc, and display it on my tv. It will be interesting to see what happens.



I highly recommend either the AVIA or Digital Video Essentials DVD for testing. Further, you can easily build a test pattern, since the TV and graphics program likely speak the same language, bitwise. Example: If I construct a pattern in Photoshop and display it via the Memory Stick, the digital levels set in Photoshop jive with what the TV thinks these levels are. And if I extract a pattern from one of the DVDs, as a TIF file, that has specific levels of gray represented, Photoshop confirms those levels.


Your wildcard that I can't address is your computer's video card. But if it supplies 8-bit video (per color), the TV will display it correctly, according to how you have set the TV's Brightness control. Note: There's NO video level lower than digital 0. BTB is supplied from DVDs by the levels between 0 and however black really is defined, say 16. A computer program that is generating video with black = 0 has no BTB content, inherently.


----------



## RWetmore

Quick question:


What setting in what group controls the brightness of the service menu's green screen text?


I searched the thread, and couldn't find it. I know it is in here somewhere.


Thanks.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Something has changed, and the question is what. Has a wire come loose? Has a chip died?
> 
> 
> If the centering and tilt, etc, are provided by physical magnetic coils _separate_ from the main deflection coils (I don't know), their connection could have gone awry. If those geometry corrections are internally computed and added to the (still working) deflection currents (I'll put money on that), then something more subtle may have happened. In either case, it sound to me like it's a service issue. I am unaware that there's any service-mode settings that "locks out" changes to these parameters in software. I'll look at the circuit schematics to see if those functions are on a separate circuit board that may have come loose, but I doubt it. I think all deflection stuff is integrated on one board.



I agree with you. It should all be together on one board/chip. This could also account for a problem I mentioned a month ago wherin I shifted my set on it's stand and it made a quick popping move when it finally lost it's traction with the top of the stand. It could have been violent enough to break a solder connection or disconnect a wire. This was the beginning of the upward bow at the botom of my screen. I had this adjusted out with a VCEN correction, then it reappeared.

It would certainly keep the service hours down if I could pinpoint the board/chip and maybe even purchase it beforehand.


Let me know what you find and thanks for your response.


Regards,


Bryan


----------



## jjmilo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Quick question:
> 
> 
> What setting in what group controls the brightness of the service menu's green screen text?
> 
> 
> I searched the thread, and couldn't find it. I know it is in here somewhere.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



2170P-4 #31 LRGB

intensity increases with increase in numerical value


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjmilo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 2170P-4 #31 LRGB
> 
> intensity increases with increase in numerical value



Thank you!


----------



## Compass

Hello KenTech and others. Thank you for this resource. I have a 36XS955 arriving shortly, and a copy of Digital Video Essentials that I will use in accordance with this thread to hopefully improve the image quality on my new set.


My question, though, relates to my SDTV from 2001, a Sony KD-36XBR250. I never calibrated this set outside of eliminating over-scan to the best of my abilities, and figure there's still some locked potential in there. Now that I have the Digital Video Essentials DVD, I'm ready to try my hand at some more serious calibration (and I could use the practice before I start tweaking the new 36XS955). The problem is that I can't find my Sony Service Codes print-out I got online when I first bought the set. I've google searched and searched on this site specifically, but don't come up with anything at all. Anyone know a source? Thanks a bunch.


----------



## darcon_adonis

Hey! I'm having a slight problem with my set, although it seems to be a common problem with all tube-type TV's.


You know when you have a primarily black screen, and then there is a spot of white displayed, and you can see where it creates a darker line of black across the whole screen? That is the issue I'm seeing with my TV (although not to the extent of regular TV's, but still noticable in certain conditions).


Is there any way to fix this, or do I have to deal with it?


Thanks!


PS - I guess its worth noting I have my set calibrated based on KenTech's settings and such.


----------



## hudsonkm

I have a question, but am not sure how to describe exactly what I am asking. I'll just go with it and hope you get the idea of where I'm going.


Ok, what determines the detail or resolution of what you see on the screen? For example, in 720p, is it the total size of the raster that makes up the 1280x720 lines of detail or is it the image itself?


Basically, I found that on my set I cannot achieve reasonably linearity without increasing the size of the raster itself to about 110% the size of the image. After which, I adjust for overscan.


By not filling the entire raster am I losing image detail? Or is my question confusing?







If so Ill draw up a few pictures to give an idea. I'm just trying to understand the relationship between the raster and the image layer in terms of the maximum lines of resolution for each progressive and interlaced scan mode.


----------



## MrGonk

i have a quandry... should i spring for a $300 isf calibration or try these tweaks myself? my concern is not in the risks that come with fooling with the service menu, but if there are things that might impact my picture that i can't do by myself without a professional, and those things are significant, i'm just going to spring for a pro calibration.


can anybody lend me some insight as to how diy service menu tweaks, done correctly, compare to a proper isf job?


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *darcon_adonis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey! I'm having a slight problem with my set, although it seems to be a common problem with all tube-type TV's.
> 
> 
> You know when you have a primarily black screen, and then there is a spot of white displayed, and you can see where it creates a darker line of black across the whole screen? That is the issue I'm seeing with my TV (although not to the extent of regular TV's, but still noticable in certain conditions).
> 
> 
> Is there any way to fix this, or do I have to deal with it?
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> PS - I guess its worth noting I have my set calibrated based on KenTech's settings and such.



How thick (or thin) is the black line you are seeing?


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrGonk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i have a quandry... should i spring for a $300 isf calibration or try these tweaks myself? my concern is not in the risks that come with fooling with the service menu, but if there are things that might impact my picture that i can't do by myself without a professional, and those things are significant, i'm just going to spring for a pro calibration.
> 
> 
> can anybody lend me some insight as to how diy service menu tweaks, done correctly, compare to a proper isf job?



i've been struggling with the same question. I have made a number of positive adjustments based on info learned here. I just love my picture. But I have good acquaintances on this forum that have paid for a pro calibration that are ecstatic with the results. I would love to have even better picture quality than I already enjoy, but will the "bang" be worth my buck?


I suspect that because the pros have specialized equipment (which I don't have), they could achieve results significantly beyond what I might get. Is it worth the price? I guess the only way I'll know is to spring the funds for it and find out myself. I just haven't reached that point yet.


If you are very, very comfortable with the vast majority of adjustments described here by KenTech and others you might just get very close. I'm not quite that ambitious, nor am I that confident in my abilities. Plus, I really don't want to spend the kind of time it would take to study and get things right. I'm pretty sure KenTech is fully satisfied with his results - and based on what he posts, I don't think he'll be paying for a pro calibration any time soon (if I've read him correctly). The work he's done here sharing his thoughts and results is nothing short of incredible. Of course, there's a number of others that he frequently replies to or debates with that have added even more value to this thread. I know of no better spot on the web to get this kind of indepth info on Sony Service Codes for the home enthusiast.


Whichever way you go, please let us know what you think about your results.


----------



## darcon_adonis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How thick (or thin) is the black line you are seeing?



It is as thick as whatever bright image is being displayed.


To clarify, the streak of darker black is going across the screen horizontally in both directions of say, a small white cube being displayed in the center of a black screen, and the streak is as thick as the hieght of the cube.


It's also worth noting that I can see this even if I don't use a source and have the TV's white interface appear in the upper corner, to rule out faulty cables or sources.


----------



## RWetmore

I helped a friend calibrate his 30XS955, and wanted to tell everyone that his main menu settings, especially Picture, Brightness, and Color needed to be set at significantly different values than mine in order to achieve the same levels, which suggests a high degree of variation from set to set with some adjustments. His greyscale, however, was in the same ball park, but still a little different.


For those who are looking to use or compare the values of others, you might want to reconsider doing so.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrGonk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i have a quandry... should i spring for a $300 isf calibration or try these tweaks myself? my concern is not in the risks that come with fooling with the service menu, but if there are things that might impact my picture that i can't do by myself without a professional, and those things are significant, i'm just going to spring for a pro calibration.
> 
> 
> can anybody lend me some insight as to how diy service menu tweaks, done correctly, compare to a proper isf job?



Just a few notes. Tweaks you do yourself can go well beyond the basic ISF Calibration, and take numerous hours. The one thing many cannot do themselves is set a proper grayscale. An ISF Calibrator will have a color analyzer to do this along with an HD signal generator to calibrate any of the inputs. A proper ISF calibration should yield the proper Grayscale for your calibrated inputs, adjustment of user controls for proper display (color, tint, black, white, detail etc.) with centering of many of the user controls at the proper calibration point and an explanation/training of how adjustments can be made to adjust for variations in mastering, broadcast, and lighting conditions.


A calibration can take four-hours or more, depending on the amount of work needed/desired. The ISF MSRP for two inputs is $350 prices may vary among calibrators.


The end result should yield a very watchable picture, adjusted for your system and viewing environment/conditions, one you can enjoy watching for quite some time. Depending on amount of use, grayscale should/could have an annual touch-up to adjust for phosphor wear variations to maintain optimal calibration.


----------



## hudsonkm

Glen


I've been looking around my area for an ISF expert here in the Chicago suburbs. The main issue I have is small anomoly's in geometry. Now, since I have a CRT do you as an ISF calibrator believe that despite it being a CRT that in most cases you can improve it at least somewhat?


I'm trying to decide if it would be worth it for me. It's quite possible Im just being overly zealous in the whole geometry perfection thing. This happens to be something I carried with me from my time in the USMC. At times, I can admit to myself that I'm just being anal about perfection. But it's hard for me to decide in this case since I am not an AV industry professional.


For the most part my 20hs420 is used for the xbox360 and as a secondary home dvd theatre setup. I tend to use our LCD for movies however, so the xbox 360 is indeed the only real concern in terms of this sets calibration.


Thanks in advance




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just a few notes. Tweaks you do yourself can go well beyond the basic ISF Calibration, and take numerous hours. The one thing many cannot do themselves is set a proper grayscale. An ISF Calibrator will have a color analyzer to do this along with an HD signal generator to calibrate any of the inputs. A proper ISF calibration should yield the proper Grayscale for your calibrated inputs, adjustment of user controls for proper display (color, tint, black, white, detail etc.) with centering of many of the user controls at the proper calibration point and an explanation/training of how adjustments can be made to adjust for variations in mastering, broadcast, and lighting conditions.
> 
> 
> A calibration can take four-hours or more, depending on the amount of work needed/desired. The ISF MSRP for two inputs is $350 prices may vary among calibrators.
> 
> 
> The end result should yield a very watchable picture, adjusted for your system and viewing environment/conditions, one you can enjoy watching for quite some time. Depending on amount of use, grayscale should/could have an annual touch-up to adjust for phosphor wear variations to maintain optimal calibration.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hudsonkm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Glen
> 
> 
> I've been looking around my area for an ISF expert here in the Chicago suburbs. The main issue I have is small anomoly's in geometry. Now, since I have a CRT do you as an ISF calibrator believe that despite it being a CRT that in most cases you can improve it at least somewhat?
> 
> 
> I'm trying to decide if it would be worth it for me. It's quite possible Im just being overly zealous in the whole geometry perfection thing. This happens to be something I carried with me from my time in the USMC. At times, I can admit to myself that I'm just being anal about perfection. But it's hard for me to decide in this case since I am not an AV industry professional.
> 
> 
> For the most part my 20hs420 is used for the xbox360 and as a secondary home dvd theatre setup. I tend to use our LCD for movies however, so the xbox 360 is indeed the only real concern in terms of this sets calibration.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance



Doc, I don't feel good, can you cure me? Fixing geometry on a CRT is an skilled art, full of compromise. Since it is all analog, absolute perfection just doesn't happen. It really depends on your specific issue. Problems with horizontal lines are generally a mechanical fix (service tech + magnets).


One thing to remember here is the purpose of the ISF was to optimize a given display to industry standards to enable you to see the picture as the director intended (common reference) with proper color, saturation, detail, yada yada, not to correct manufacturing errors and defects. There are many ISF calibrators that have the CRT background to provide additional or expanded service. My take on this situation is if there is a geometry issue, it probably existed from the beginning and should be corrected by the manufacturer under warranty. It is difficult, because the TV manufacturer makes no claims about perfect geometry or grayscale. They even boast about their dreadful edge enhancement features they design to boost sales to the unknowing public. Advanced geometry is not in the scope of ISF Calibrations, it is considered more of a repair (IMO).


There are so many things that can detract from viewing pleasure. This is one reason I never mention the silk-screen effect (SSE) to RP micro-display customers or point out dead pixels. Once you see them, you always see them, and it can ruin the experience.


Once the grayscale is correct and all other settings are calibrated, the picture on an Sony DA-4 display (main focus of this thread) is generally stunning, and it's easy to get wrapped-up in what you are watching, not seeing the flaws. Choosing to watch movies on an LCD TV, IMO, is a big compromise in its self..


I cannot say if I can fix geometry issues until I actually see the TV, then who knows.. In some cases, there could be a major magnetic interference in an area, creating external problems that cannot be fixed. There you would go with something other than CRT.


You are the only one to determine the value of the fix. I would say that if gaming is the primary use of the TV and you are focusing on geometry errors, you are not doing too well with game scores. Speed Bumps and bent lines are probably the two biggest issues for distractions for me (outside of SSE).


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hudsonkm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Glen
> 
> 
> I've been looking around my area for an ISF expert here in the Chicago suburbs. The main issue I have is small anomoly's in geometry. Now, since I have a CRT do you as an ISF calibrator believe that despite it being a CRT that in most cases you can improve it at least somewhat?
> 
> 
> I'm trying to decide if it would be worth it for me. It's quite possible Im just being overly zealous in the whole geometry perfection thing. This happens to be something I carried with me from my time in the USMC. At times, I can admit to myself that I'm just being anal about perfection. But it's hard for me to decide in this case since I am not an AV industry professional.
> 
> 
> For the most part my 20hs420 is used for the xbox360 and as a secondary home dvd theatre setup. I tend to use our LCD for movies however, so the xbox 360 is indeed the only real concern in terms of this sets calibration.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance



Most major horizontal (vertical lines) geometry issues can be corrected or vastly improved via service menu adjustments (I think only the VCEN and VPIN parameters can significantly affect horizontal lines issues with these sets). It can take a lot of patience and tinkering, but it is worth the effort.


I just took delivery of new XBR960 on Saturday, and spent a good couple of hours with the geometry alone. You really have to tinker with various combinations of values for the different parameters. Getting close to perfection is very much an "art;" however, correcting major inaccuracies is relatively easy, and won't take much time or effort.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrGonk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i have a quandry... should i spring for a $300 isf calibration or try these tweaks myself? my concern is not in the risks that come with fooling with the service menu, but if there are things that might impact my picture that i can't do by myself without a professional, and those things are significant, i'm just going to spring for a pro calibration.



As Glen says, the greyscale is by far the hardest thing to do. I know for sure that I have dramatically improved mine from the factory settings. How accurate I have gotten it is still unknown since I don't have access to a measuring device.



> Quote:
> can anybody lend me some insight as to how diy service menu tweaks, done correctly, compare to a proper isf job?



If done correctly, they should be virtually as good as an ISF job. The problem is there is no genuine way to know if the greyscale is "correct" without measuring it. I would think in virtually every case, it would still be at least a little bit off.


I think the problem is that there are few (if any) people who have thoroughly self-calibrated their sets using the information here, and then gone out and paid for an ISF calibration to "check" the accuracy of their work.


----------



## corlay

Does anyone have a defined process they follow for setting geometry in Widezoom screen mode?


The issue for me is that I can't find the right combination of settings between Dvd player and tv to emulate a 4:3 image to adjust widezoom geometry to. And which DVE slide to use for this?


my tv is 30HS420, and my player can send the image in: 'letterboxed', "pan & scan', or '16:9'. I've tried all 3 settings, and none seems to emulate an RF broadcast 4:3 signal *exacly*; because things are getting cropped diferently between my DVD input and RF.


All I really want to do is adjust the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 groupings in the SM that are particualr to Widezoom (now that I've got the Full screenmode 16:9 set...), to optimize that picture so I've got ~5% overscan at the left and right edges; and something closer to 10% at the top and bottom (this is more watchable to me, less vertical 'squishing' of the 4:3 image, at the expense of lost top and bottom image to overscan...)


Also, in Widezoom, how should the geometry be set? If a uniform grid pattern is displayed, should I shoot for perfect squares (horix. and vert.) in the center, allowing some distortion outward, toward the edges? What's the concept, rule of thumb here? I know that there's some 'Sony Magic' going on with this mode, in converting a 4:3 to a 16:9 display; I just want to know what the thought process is behind it so I can work *with* this concept when adjusting geometry, instead of against it...


Any help would be appreciated....


Thanks.


--

corlay


----------



## acey

Just purchased a Sony KD-27FS170 - is there a service code that will rotate the display? Display is tilted a few degrees counter-clockwise. Is there any way for me to correct this or should I take it back and try another set?


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just purchased a Sony KD-27FS170 - is there a service code that will rotate the display? Display is tilted a few degrees counter-clockwise. Is there any way for me to correct this or should I take it back and try another set?



I'm pretty sure there is a tilt adjustment for this set in the regular menu.


----------



## djserrin

My problem is that the picture is wider than what it's displaying, cutting off the edges of the picture.


I got into the service menu and was browsing around, and I need to know: How do you change the width of the picture to fit the screen?


----------



## djserrin

Found some settings, the edges on the sides are kinda wavy, but this board has been awesome for helping me figure this stuff out!! You guys rock!


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *djserrin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My problem is that the picture is wider than what it's displaying, cutting off the edges of the picture.
> 
> 
> I got into the service menu and was browsing around, and I need to know: How do you change the width of the picture to fit the screen?



2170D-2: HSIZ


----------



## jjmilo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just purchased a Sony KD-27FS170 - is there a service code that will rotate the display? Display is tilted a few degrees counter-clockwise. Is there any way for me to correct this or should I take it back and try another set?



I believe RWetmore is correct, a user menu adjustment for tilt should be available for your set.

However if not, you should find an adjustment in the Service menu in

2170D-1 #8 NSC0


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjmilo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I believe RWetmore is correct, a user menu adjustment for tilt should be available for your set.
> 
> However if not, you should find an adjustment in the Service menu in
> 
> 2170D-1 #8 NSC0



I don't believe it is available for the new 27" model. It is available on the 32" and 36" models but not for this one.


If there's a SM adjustment for this I have yet to identify it.


----------



## bast525

Does anyone know which setting, if any, can be used to fix this problem:


There is a slight uneven stretching of the image horizontally. Example: I put up a menu that has two columns on the left and right, evenly spaced from center. The columns display the exact same lines of text. After noticing that something didn't look right, I actually sat there with a measuring tape and measured a line of text on the left and right column (exact same text). I found that the text on the left hand side measured about 7", and the text on the right only 6.5". Also, the text on the left is a bit more blurry. I double checked this by putting up a grid pattern and sure enough the squares on the left are longer, horizontally.


I tried playing with some of the focus adjustments (QPAM etc), and also adjusting some of the H-settings (HPOS, HSIZ) etc, and really didn't help it much, though the H settings were able to help a little.


Is there another adjustment that I am missing that could fix this issue?


This is on a 34" XBR 970 by the way (no super fine pitch for me! Stop discontinuing your best TV's Sony!)



By the way KenTech and everyone THANK you for this awesome thread. I didn't even know until very recently that there WERE hidden service menus in these TV's. My XBR had pretty bad geometry issues right out of the box, most of which were easily identifiable and fixable, thanks to my lucking out and finding this thread. As many others here have, I have been able to GREATLY improve the PQ of my set, without ever having messed with this kind of thing before, just by following tips posted here.


Oh and KenTech, your RYB-GYB etc. settings (13-15-6-4) worked PERFECTLY for me as well... my TV had WAY too much red push going on and now it looks pretty darn near perfect.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone know which setting, if any, can be used to fix this problem:
> 
> 
> There is a slight uneven stretching of the image horizontally. Example: I put up a menu that has two columns on the left and right, evenly spaced from center. The columns display the exact same lines of text. After noticing that something didn't look right, I actually sat there with a measuring tape and measured a line of text on the left and right column (exact same text). I found that the text on the left hand side measured about 7", and the text on the right only 6.5". Also, the text on the left is a bit more blurry. I double checked this by putting up a grid pattern and sure enough the squares on the left are longer, horizontally.
> 
> 
> I tried playing with some of the focus adjustments (QPAM etc), and also adjusting some of the H-settings (HPOS, HSIZ) etc, and really didn't help it much, though the H settings were able to help a little.
> 
> 
> Is there another adjustment that I am missing that could fix this issue?



Yes, there are adjustments for this. Off the top of my head, I forget what they are. Maybe SLIN...someone will know.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh and KenTech, your RYB-GYB etc. settings (13-15-6-4) worked PERFECTLY for me as well... my TV had WAY too much red push going on and now it looks pretty darn near perfect.



I haven't tried 13, 15, 6, 4 yet, but I will. I settled on 14, 14, 5, 3, but there is still seems to be a little red push.


----------



## bast525

yeah the red is still maybe a tad strong in my case as well and I may turn the 13 up to 14. Still a major improvement from what it was! (8-9-9-6 were the factory settings... blech!)




Oh and I don't think it's SLIN as I know I tried fiddling with that one as well, I think that one adjusts the stretch of the outter maybe 2/3 of the picture relative to the center 1/3. But it adjusts both sides equally. If I remember correctly that is what it does, unfortunately I'm at work so not in front of my set so I may be wrong but I know I tried SLIN to no avail.


----------



## bast525

Also, when I throw up the test grid (white lines on black background) I seem to be having horizontal convergences issue on the upper left corner, where the upper most couple rows of horizontal lines, you can see the red element kind of drooping and curving below the 'true' line as it gets closer to the left most edge. I did adjust many of the convergence settings in the SM but they all seem to affect vertical convergence, not horizontal, as far as I can tell.


I have seen this issue on another Sony HDTV Wega I saw at Circuit City, non wide screen just regular 4:3 HDTV, had the exact same issue. I'm guessing there is no fix for this in the SM?


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The issue for me is that I can't find the right combination of settings between Dvd player and tv to emulate a 4:3 image to adjust widezoom geometry to. And which DVE slide to use for this?
> 
> 
> my tv is 30HS420, and my player can send the image in: 'letterboxed', "pan & scan', or '16:9'. I've tried all 3 settings, and none seems to emulate an RF broadcast 4:3 signal *exacly*; because things are getting cropped diferently between my DVD input and RF.
> 
> 
> All I really want to do is adjust the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 groupings in the SM that are particualr to Widezoom (now that I've got the Full screenmode 16:9 set...), to optimize that picture so I've got ~5% overscan at the left and right edges; and something closer to 10% at the top and bottom (this is more watchable to me, less vertical 'squishing' of the 4:3 image, at the expense of lost top and bottom image to overscan...)





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *djserrin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My problem is that the picture is wider than what it's displaying, cutting off the edges of the picture.
> 
> 
> I got into the service menu and was browsing around, and I need to know: How do you change the width of the picture to fit the screen?



HSIZ, as RWetmore has said. But I thought I'd mention: Where there are some vertical scaling adjustments for different video modes, the horizintal one is global. For example, there is no way to adjust one of the Zoom modes in width without disturbing the normal width setting.


I wanted to do this so 4:3 broadcast on HD could be proportioned to fit my big 4:3 screen if I choose the Zoom mode. But I regret that this seems not possible. (Love to be proved wrong!) My set doesn't have a WideZoom mode, so if there is are specific settings for that, I can't confirm it.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is a slight uneven stretching of the image horizontally. Example: I put up a menu that has two columns on the left and right, evenly spaced from center. The columns display the exact same lines of text. After noticing that something didn't look right, I actually sat there with a measuring tape and measured a line of text on the left and right column (exact same text). I found that the text on the left hand side measured about 7", and the text on the right only 6.5". Also, the text on the left is a bit more blurry. I double checked this by putting up a grid pattern and sure enough the squares on the left are longer, horizontally. Is there another adjustment that I am missing that could fix this issue?



That's very interesting! No one has brought this up before, and I note that there doesn't seem to be a code like "HLIN" that might fix this. I presume you have downloaded the relevant manual pages from *here* . None of my charts even mention horizontal linearity.


The horizintal-deflection current is very strong and operates at high frequencies. The usual solution with analog sets was to include somewhere in the circuit to the deflection coils a robust inductor with a magnetized core that you could adjust with a screwdriver.


On the DZ circuit board, the inductor L5005 is identified as "HLC," which to me translates as "horizintal-linearity coil." There is no indication in the circuit diagram that it adjustable, and you'd have to open the set to try it -- not recommended. I would make a service claim against this complaint and get a tech to come to your home and fix it. That much nonlinearity seems unacceptable to me!


> Quote:
> Oh and KenTech, your RYB-GYB etc. settings (13-15-6-4) worked PERFECTLY for me as well... my TV had WAY too much red push going on and now it looks pretty darn near perfect.



Lately I have settled on 14-14-6-4 for Default. Remember that you can set "Monitor" differently (I tried 13-15-6-4), and switch between them while watching. I have done that, but I keep coming back to 14-14-6-4 as an excellent compromise for DVDs and broadcast. YMMV, of course.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, when I throw up the test grid (white lines on black background) I seem to be having horizontal convergences issue on the upper left corner, where the upper most couple rows of horizontal lines, you can see the red element kind of drooping and curving below the 'true' line as it gets closer to the left most edge.



Just to make sure we've got the terminology straight: The vertical displacement of color on horizintal white lines is called *vertical convergence* -- fixed with permanent magnets stuck on the backside of the CRT and hard to fiddle with, plus rotating magnets on the neck of the CRT. The "other" convergence (vertical lines have color fringes) is *horizontal convergence*, and there are elaborate service-mode adjustments for this in the D-CONV. See those manual pages referenced above in #1889 for decent documentation.


----------



## bast525




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's very interesting! No one has brought this up before, and I note that there doesn't seem to be a code like "HLIN" that might fix this. I presume you have downloaded the relevant manual pages from None of my charts even mention horizontal linearity.
> 
> 
> The horizintal-deflection current is very strong and operates at high frequencies. The usual solution with analog sets was to include somewhere in the circuit to the deflection coils a robust inductor with a magnetized core that you could adjust with a screwdriver.
> 
> 
> On the DZ circuit board, the inductor L5005 is identified as "HLC," which to me translates as "horizintal-linearity coil." There is no indication in the circuit diagram that it adjustable, and you'd have to open the set to try it -- not recommended. I would make a service claim against this complaint and get a tech to come to your home and fix it. That much nonlinearity seems unacceptable to me!Lately I have settled on 14-14-6-4 for Default. Remember that you can set "Monitor" differently (I tried 13-15-6-4), and switch between them while watching. I have done that, but I keep coming back to 14-14-6-4 as an excellent compromise for DVDs and broadcast. YMMV, of course.




As far as the horizontal linearity, as far as I can tell there is nothing listed anywhere that directly, specifically points to this issue. Of course, until just this moment, I didn't know that that was the term for what I was seeing! At any rate, I have only had the TV a little over a week... I really wasn't enjoying the idea of having a tech come out to my house so soon but I may have to do just that.


About the color settings, I think I saw the same thing you are seeing, as I mentioned above, I had tried 14 instead of 13 for the first setting and found it a little better, but reverted back to 13 for the time being. I will try 14-14 when I get home instead of 13 or 14-15. A great side effect of this change in the SM settings, IMO, was that I was able to adjust the color slider in the regular user adjustments back to 50, whereas before I had turned it down a bit to try to lessen that way-too-overbearing red.


Thank you for the clarifications on terminology... this is all still kind of new to me. I've always been good at spotting problems with TV PQ issues, but until very recently never knew the terms for any of them.


So yeah, I'm having issues with vertical convergence in the upper left corner of the screen. I guess I'll deal with it as it's not easily spottable unless looking at the test grid and then it's only in that corner. But if I have a tech come out to look at this other problem with the horizontal linearity, is that something they would also be obliged to look at or fix under warranty?


And last question, is there a difference in what we are talking about with this linearity, as far as, one side seeming more horizontally stretched than the other one, and how you would describe increased stretching as you get away from center on BOTH sides? Example: the squares on a test grid in the very center of the screen might measure .5" across, then as you go towards EITHER edge of the TV, the width of the squares slowly increases (let's just say they increase evenly in either direction for this example). Is that a different term/problem? Is that something fixable with a SM setting?


----------



## darcon_adonis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *darcon_adonis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It is as thick as whatever bright image is being displayed.
> 
> 
> To clarify, the streak of darker black is going across the screen horizontally in both directions of say, a small white cube being displayed in the center of a black screen, and the streak is as thick as the hieght of the cube.
> 
> 
> It's also worth noting that I can see this even if I don't use a source and have the TV's white interface appear in the upper corner, to rule out faulty cables or sources.



Bumping my issue.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> About the color settings, I think I saw the same thing you are seeing, as I mentioned above, I had tried 14 instead of 13 for the first setting and found it a little better, but reverted back to 13 for the time being. I will try 14-14 when I get home instead of 13 or 14-15. A great side effect of this change in the SM settings, IMO, was that I was able to adjust the color slider in the regular user adjustments back to 50, whereas before I had turned it down a bit to try to lessen that way-too-overbearing red.



Note that you are wandering without direction unless you have a decent calibration DVD. There are color "pushes" in any number of broadcast programs (try the Food Channel!), so one needs a standard way of calibrating color, both in the decoding and the overall amount.


> Quote:
> So yeah, I'm having issues with vertical convergence in the upper left corner of the screen.



Some of these "defects," if tolerable, are best left alone if you don't much see them. I have an upper-right vertical convergence problem that's visible on crosshatch patterns but hardly noticable on real programming. Those magnets are a real bear to adjust and they interact with each other: you fix convergence in one area, and it's now screwed up somewhere else!


> Quote:
> is there a difference in what we are talking about with this linearity, as far as, one side seeming more horizontally stretched than the other one, and how you would describe increased stretching as you get away from center on BOTH sides?



Yeah, that's easy. That one is known as S-linearity. The vertical correction is 2170D-1/#4-VSCO, and the horizintal equivalent (what you mentioned) is 2170D-2/#3-SLIN.


Be sure to write down the original settings before you WRITE new ones!


----------



## bast525

Thanks for the additional info KenTech. I agree with you that it's not really worth worrying about the convergence issues in the corner, it's rarely noticeable and not worth trying voodoo magic with magnets to fix, IMO.











I also agree it's not worth really trying to fine tune the colors w/o the DVE DVD.... again I hadn't even planned on TOUCHING anything other than the geometry adjustments (only because I did have a video game disc that has a crosshatch test grid displayed when it first starts up). But after reading how EVERYONE had that 'red push' on their Sony sets and me noticing mine had the same thing, and then reading what you said: "The first try I got 13-15-5-4, and others have reported those settings, too. Big improvement! *You could do a lot worse than simply trying those settings*", I figured there'd be no harm in just trying those numbers even w/o DVE. Sure enough, the picture looked MUCH better to my eyes after the adjustment. I have no idea how close to 'perfect' it really is, but I'm happy with it.


Only problem is that after more extended viewing it now seems to have just a slight bit too much greenish tinge to yellows/oranges and very light beige/browns. But anyways... yeah definately not going to try to really tweak the colors, and I'm not even going to TOUCH the black levels/gamma etc., w/o the DVE disc. And don't worry I am taking all the warnings to heart, I'm not adjusting anything w/o first writing down the original value.


Now my next issue... I spent a little more time tinkering with convergence yesterday with the crosshatch pattern, and got it to where it looked PERFECT. Except for that one upper left corner, it really looked like the convergence was spot-on horizontally and vertically.


It wasn't. I started notcing as I was fiddling with menus on my DVD player and trying some video games, that with pure white text (with no black border, just plain white text, regardless if background was dark or light), towards the right side of the screen, there was some red 'spill over' to the right of the text. A very bright, almost orangish red. So I pulled the SM back up, and adjusted the CADJ setting a few notches, and the red 'spill over' went away. Only now, anything onscreen that is red colored has spillover! Not quite the same though... it's still red, but it's not the bright white-orangish red, it's a transparent red with maybe the slightest green tinge to it (like moving the tint slider towards the green). Like a red 'shadow'. It spills over in the same direction, to the right. I fiddled and fiddled but could NOT find a setting with CADJ that completely got rid of both kinds of spillover. So I settled on setting it 'right in the middle'.


The funnier thing is it's happening worse on one side... but only partially! What I mean is... okay if I adjust it so that the white text has the bright orange-red spillover, then THAT will only be noticeable on the right side of the screen. But if I adjust it so that there's the faint red "shadow" spillover but the whites are 'clean', then that will be noticeable on any red object anywhere on the screen.


So I tried adjusting CADJ to where there were no red 'shadows', but I had the spillover on the white text. Then I adjusted the D-Conv settings that only affect the right side and corners of the screen, to get rid of the white spillover... but same thing. I can not get rid of the one w/o increasing the other. So it seems like, at least on the right side of the screen (maybe 1/4's worth from the edge), I have to settle for some bad horizontal convergence in one form or another. Or do I? Is there something I'm missing?



EDIT: one thing I forgot about, before I adjusted the CADJ settings, when I had the bright red spillover to the right on white text on the right side of the screen, I also had dim blue spillover to the left of white text on the left side of the screen. After tweaking CADJ BOTH problems cleared up, but again... then I had the red shadow to the right of red objects...


Just thought I'd mention that now that I remembered.


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> HSIZ, as RWetmore has said. But I thought I'd mention: Where there are some vertical scaling adjustments for different video modes, the horizintal one is global. For example, there is no way to adjust one of the Zoom modes in width without disturbing the normal width setting.
> 
> 
> I wanted to do this so 4:3 broadcast on HD could be proportioned to fit my big 4:3 screen if I choose the Zoom mode. But I regret that this seems not possible. (Love to be proved wrong!) My set doesn't have a WideZoom mode, so if there is are specific settings for that, I can't confirm it.



Sets (like 30HS420) with Widezoom have the following settings in the SM,

that are specific to the 'Widezoom' screen mode:


2170-D1:

VLIN

VSCO

ZOOM

APSW

ASPT

SCRL

UVLN

LVLN


2170-D2:

HSIZ

HLIN

MPIN

PIN

PINO

UCP

LCP

PPHA


HSIZ being one, I assume there *is* a way to optomize this screen mode to proper overscan, etc.? Without affecting the other screen modes?


Does anyone have a tried-and-true process?


--

corlay


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Only now, anything onscreen that is red colored has spillover! Not quite the same though... it's still red, but it's not the bright white-orangish red, it's a transparent red with maybe the slightest green tinge to it (like moving the tint slider towards the green). Like a red 'shadow'. It spills over in the same direction, to the right. I fiddled and fiddled but could NOT find a setting with CADJ that completely got rid of both kinds of spillover. So I settled on setting it 'right in the middle'.



This is not a good strategy because the "spillover" of red from red-colored objects has nothing to do with convergence! It is a consequence of red-color encoding for much of NTSC programming, more with broadcast, less with DVD, almost none for component video. Red has the lowest resolution of all colors, generally, and a bit of color "outside the lines" is par for the course. It is extreme on some SD broadcast TV, however. This is NOT true of digital TV.


You should evaluate convergence on standard material with your Color slider set all the way to zero so none of the other color defects distract you. All convergence problems can be seen with no color in the video, hence the white/gray crosshatch patters' usefulness.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> HSIZ being one, I assume there *is* a way to optomize this screen mode to proper overscan, etc.? Without affecting the other screen modes?
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a tried-and-true process?



I personally don't for WideZoom, but surely this is an easy experiment. (That's how I determined how hopeless my custom-zoom width attempt was on my 4:3 set!)


Suggestion: Write down your existing settings for HSIZ for WideZoom and Others. Put the TV into WideZoom mode, and change HSIZ's value significantly. Then switch back to a normal mode to see if horizontal size is the same visually, or if it too has changed. This will establish empirically the independence (or not) of the two modes' settings.


You may have to WRITE the settings for them to stick thru a mode change, but you have the former settings written down as backup, so don't worry.


ASPC and SCRL are the most useful parameters for tweaking the vertical size and position for several scan/zoom modes. Note that any parameter with a range listed as "0, 1" is only a switch that controls whether a feature or function is on or off and has no fine control.


----------



## bast525

KenTech - thank you AGAIN for some great info and clarification... you probably just saved me quite a bit of time that would have been spent on hopelessly fiddling with adjustments when I got home from work tonite







Okay so the red spillover can't really be fixed in the way I was thinking, except for to upgrade to better video cables (my 'reference' was a video game being played on an Xbox thru S-video cables).


I MAY just reset all of the D-CONV settings back to factory and start over with the crosshatch pattern again, since I have a feeling I have 'tweaked' it badly since I was using the reference that I was, and that it probably really was perfect where I had had it.



KenTech - another question for you, what are your thoughts on the "THX Optimizer" which is a feature that is being included on a lot of DVD's these days. I noticed it first when I bought the DVD set of the original Star Wars trilogy (eps 4-6 I mean). I know it only covers the basics (color, tint, bright and contrast, and some basic geometry I think), but I was wondering if this would suit me well for just adjusting the color? It mentions on the THX website that you can either a) use a pair of their blue filter glasses or b) turn off the green and red guns on the set to make the color and tint adjustments, and I believe I CAN turn off the red and green guns on this XBR970 so I wouldn't even need to wait for a pair of the glasses to arrive in the mail.


Do you think the results would be good with this? I do want to get the DVE or Avia (leaning towards Avia since it SEEMS it would be more user friendly for a 'newbie' like me, BUT it's like 2-3x the price!), and will probably order one of them by the end of this weekend. But if I can use the THX optimizer to fix my color, tint, picture and bright, and my crosshatch for geometry and convergence, that's almost everything except grayscale and color temp taken care of.


I won't bother with the Optimizer though if you don't think the results would be 'true' or worth the trouble.



EDIT: correction, apparently the Optimizer feature does cover grayscale, convergence, and possibly even sharpness adjustments (newer versions, not sure if my Star Wars one has this).


----------



## gribble

Ken, I was adjusting the overscan on my KV-HS420, when I left the room briefly, and a guest (who knows better) had a mental lapse, AND TRIED TO CHANGE THE CHANNEL. Um sweetheart, there aren't any channels, just a DVD player.


It took three days of googling to find your forum, but you've saved me. Thank you.


I've got eyes good enough to identify the filmstock that was used, but not the competence to change anything other than geometry. Any thoughts on where I might start learning?


----------



## Ev01vEd

I am trying to get my overscan under 5 percent. However on the bottom, when I go below 5, the image gets distorted...


||||||||

/////////


Is there a way to straighten this out?


----------



## RM23J8G

I just picked up the last XBR960 in Virginia at CC...unfortunately, an open box one.

This one has some fairly significant convergence issues, and also what appears to be a beam focus issue.

I'm new to the service menu and haven't gone in there yet. From reading here, it looks like the convergence issues might be fairly easy to address in the menu, but what about focus?

And what is the exact procedure for getting into and navigating the service menu? I guess most know the basics of that here, but it's all new to me. I'm very familiar with broadcast monitors and the theories of convergence and grayscale and all that, just not familiar with these Sony service menu adjustments.

thanks


----------



## gribble




RM23J8G said:


> And what is the exact procedure for getting into and navigating the service menu?
> 
> 
> If you bounce back to page 1 of the forum you can find pdf's 'n zips for download. Grab em all. There's something good in every one.


----------



## RM23J8G

Thanks....I just found them!

Great stuff here.....thanks Ken.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RM23J8G* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just picked up the last XBR960 in Virginia at CC...unfortunately, an open box one.
> 
> This one has some fairly significant convergence issues, and also what appears to be a beam focus issue.
> 
> I'm new to the service menu and haven't gone in there yet. From reading here, it looks like the convergence issues might be fairly easy to address in the menu, but what about focus?
> 
> And what is the exact procedure for getting into and navigating the service menu? I guess most know the basics of that here, but it's all new to me. I'm very familiar with broadcast monitors and the theories of convergence and grayscale and all that, just not familiar with these Sony service menu adjustments.
> 
> thanks



YOu can try the focus adjustments in the service menu, especially overall focus (I believe QDPC), but the adjustments can only do so much. I just recently got a new 960, and and really lucked out with the focus - it's really excellent even at the edges. Prior to this, I owned the 30XS955, and the focus was not as good even after significant adjustments. This suggests to me that the how the focus is calibrated at manufacturing may be the most critical, so I would call out a service tech if the SM adjustments don't yield significant improvment.


----------



## bast525

Hey all. Okay, went home last night and tried using the THX Optimizer feature that is on the Star Wars DVD set I have. While pretty basic, it does cover the most obvious/critical bases pretty well, IMO. With test patterns for color, tint, bright, contrast, sharpness, convergence, grayscale, and geometry, I was able to go in and fine tune what I had already done and get the picture even better.


I found that my convergence adjustments weren't nearly as good as I had originally thought, and REALLY got down and tweaked them to near-perfection this time, much better than I had them, and the red bleeding issue is almost 100% gone now.


At any rate, for anyone who has one of the movies that comes with the THX Optimizer feature, I feel it's definately a great way to do a 'quick' tune up with only a small handful of the service menu settings and the regular user settings, and my picture now is MUCH and EASILY NOTICEABLY better than it was 'out of the box'. A good 'free' tool to use for anyone who has one of these movies, though I do plan on still buying Avia at some point for final fine tuning to get the colors 'perfect'.


The only issue I have left that is worth complaining about, and I'm hoping someone knows a fix for in the SM:


The bottom right corner of the screen has a gradually warmer color temperature. I got most of the screen to display, what seems to me to be a really pure white, but the bottom right corner still has a reddish tinge to it. I tried playing with a few settings in the color section of the SM and also with the Landing section, but found NOTHING that affected this.


----------



## gribble

I intend to slog my way through the whole forum from page one onwards but in the meantime, some keywords for searching would be a big help.


The only input my KV-34HS420 will ever get is widescreen DVD through the HDMI interface.


Changing HPOS confirms that I'm losing a significant amount of the picture at either end of the screen, and HSIZ only changes screen real estate, it doesn't give me any more of width available from the DVD output signal.


What should I be running searches for? Overscan and blanking were unproductive.


----------



## bast525




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gribble* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Changing HPOS confirms that I'm losing a significant amount of the picture at either end of the screen, and HSIZ only changes screen real estate, it doesn't give me any more of width available from the DVD output signal.




I don't know how relevant this will be or helpful if at all but I thought it worth mentioning. On my XBR 970 (widescreen HDTV), I noticed when I was using a test patter from the THX Optimizer (similiar to Avia etc.), with a rectangle frame to use for referencing how much overscan there was... If I adjusted HSIZ in full screen (16:9) mode, it actually changed the amount of the overscan and how much of the test pattern was being shown on the screen. But then I switched to 4:3 mode to do the same calibration, and I got the same results you are describing... instead of changing the area of the test pattern being displayed on the screen, HSIZ in this mode only affected the amount of the screen the 4:3 box took up. In other words, I COULD NOT adjust the amount of overscan or how much of the test pattern was actually being displayed while in 4:3 mode. I don't really use 4:3 much anymore so didn't look to see if maybe there was another section of settings with an alternate HSIZ or similiar that would correct this.


----------



## gribble




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't know how relevant this will be or helpful if at all but I thought it worth mentioning.



Well, it adds to the mystery. My problem is in 16:9 full screen, HDMI input, where your HSIZ works fine. Sale of XBR tubes had been discontinued in Canada at the time I bought the set.


Dunno about 4:3. I don't go there either. The set has some blanking issues, I can only hope they didn't lock the hardware lest they become apparent. Been digging through the forum with no luck so far. Anybody have any ideas?


(At least I've figured out how to configure response posts correctly


----------



## gribble




bast525 said:


> Does anyone know which setting, if any, can be used to fix this problem:
> 
> 
> There is a slight uneven stretching of the image horizontally. I actually sat there with a measuring tape and measured a line of text on the left and right column (exact same text). I found that the text on the left hand side measured about 7", and the text on the right only 6.5". /QUOTE]
> 
> HCNT, right before HPOS and HSIZ changes position of the horizontal and alters the proportion of the two areas on either side. Try adjusting that a little to the left, then re-centering with HPOS.
> 
> 
> I'm ready to bow to the expertise of the forum, but I didn't see a solution posted and it worked for me


----------



## gribble




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gribble* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> HCNT, right before HPOS and HSIZ changes position of the horizontal and alters the proportion of the two areas on either side. Try adjusting that a little to the left, then re-centering with HPOS.



Sorry, meant to say changes position of horizontal CENTER, The whole image shifts, but the adjustment is really for proportion between the two sides. Ten thumbs and blind today


----------



## RM23J8G

I'm getting more familiar with the service menu now, and downloaded some of Ken's test signals onto cd to play in my dvd player.

They really don't look all that good through that process...lot's of artifacts... and I'd like to try the memory stick method. I got better looking test signals by recording them from an NTSC test signal generator into a dvd recorder for some reason.

I have zero experience with memory sticks, as I don't have anything that uses them. I see that there are several different varieties and sizes of them. What do I need?

Also, what sort of hardware/software interface do I need to load the test images into them from my computer?

This is pretty cool stuff....especially if I can get this 960 straightened out!

thanks


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RM23J8G* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm getting more familiar with the service menu now, and downloaded some of Ken's test signals onto cd to play in my dvd player.
> 
> They really don't look all that good through that process...lot's of artifacts... and I'd like to try the memory stick method. I got better looking test signals by recording them from an NTSC test signal generator into a dvd recorder for some reason.
> 
> I have zero experience with memory sticks, as I don't have anything that uses them. I see that there are several different varieties and sizes of them. What do I need?
> 
> Also, what sort of hardware/software interface do I need to load the test images into them from my computer?
> 
> This is pretty cool stuff....especially if I can get this 960 straightened out!
> 
> thanks



Why not use the internal test patterns..? Read #416, #420 and #428


----------



## truesper

Can anybody recommend service codes which might correct horizontal distortion in a 27" Wega flat-CRT? (27FS170)


The effect I see is that objects appear to bulge and ripple as they pass through the middle of the screen.


I've tinkered extensively with PAMP and UPIN/LPIN, but those don't seem to influence this region of the screen. It seems to be slight concavity along a vertical line in the middle of the screen, rather than a fisheye.


i.e.,

|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||

|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||

|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||

|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||

|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||


Visually, what I see is objects squeeze as they pass horizontally through the middle of the screen and bulge as they leave. It creates an unpleasant ripple. Vertical movement does not exhibit this flaw at all.


I'd be extremely grateful to hear some informed opinions about this. It's driving me crazy.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RM23J8G* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm getting more familiar with the service menu now, and downloaded some of Ken's test signals onto cd to play in my dvd player.
> 
> They really don't look all that good through that process...lot's of artifacts... and I'd like to try the memory stick method. I got better looking test signals by recording them from an NTSC test signal generator into a dvd recorder for some reason.



Those test patterns are constructed to display onscreen at 1:1 pixel ratio; nothing else will look correct on the fine-textured patterns.


The Frame buffer on my 36" 4:3 set is exactly 1080h X 1440w, and so many of the patterns are exactly that so the TV does NO rescaling. I can't confirm their value, but I also made some "16x9" patterns that are 1080h x 1920w, in case that is the right thing for widescreen-set owners.


If you simply record these patterns to DVD as stills or play them as jpegs from a CD, the DVD player crunches them to a different pixel ratio, likely 480h x 720w, and it may or may not give you square pixels: If circles aren't round, then it or you are overlooking the fact that DVD pixels have a 9:8, not square, aspect ratio.


The color-based patterns should work fine, but even my excellent Panasonic S97 doesn't handle jpeg-from-CD color very precisely. DVD stills are accurate, and the required rescaling doesn't hurt the colors at all. But you have to have DVD-authoring software to do it. I bought DVE and AVIA, and I don't much care to make any custom DVD with my own patterns.


The TV's manual describes the memory-stick basics. The reader module in the TV isn't especially fast, so you don't have to spend extra $$ on fast MS. It will read almost any form factor MS. I chose a couple 512K sticks on sale at Fry's -- Sony, but I don't think it matters.


You just have to buy a cheap memory-stick adapter for your USB port on your computer. $20 will get you an excellent multi-format (with also compact-flash, secure digital, etc) unit plus cable. This lets you treat the MS like an external disk drive.


Your computer should see the stick as a disk. Follow directions in the TV's manual to copy files onto the stick -- you have to follow a few simple rules. High-quality jpeg looks best. If you have a Mac, there are nuisance invisible "resource" files also generated on the stick that have to be deleted or they get in the way. (_Path Finder_ software makes it easy.)


Hope this helps.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why not use the internal test patterns..? Read #416, #420 and #428



They're fine, as far as they go, but some are very clumsy to use, the color bars suck, and a valuable pattern may force you to evaluate only part of the screen, when what you need is a repeating pattern that occurs in different places on the screen. In other words, MS test patterns are limited only by your imagination and time, and the built-in patterns, while valuable, are extremely limited.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *truesper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Visually, what I see is objects squeeze as they pass horizontally through the middle of the screen and bulge as they leave. It creates an unpleasant ripple. Vertical movement does not exhibit this flaw at all.
> 
> 
> I'd be extremely grateful to hear some informed opinions about this. It's driving me crazy.



I see a mild effect like this, too, and big scenic pans in movies make it fairly obvious!


But the adjustments offered in service mode are fairly coarse: You can squeeze or stretch the screen a bit over a third, maybe a quarter, of its width, but those narrow defects are a mystery to me. It could have to do with the cast-glass tube, a deflection-yoke anomaly, or some badly-placed magnets on the back of the tube -- who knows. Mine occurs in alignment with a slight cyan color shift just left of center, and I know ther is a "nest" of magnets (like cockroaches - I've seen 'em!) on the tube-back there. I'm trying ot get up the nerve to open the set and fiddle, but I haven't yet. I don't know what "problem" the magnets' placement was meant to solve in the first place.


If it is an electrical issue, I can't begin to guess what would cause a "glitch" in the huge sawtooth-shaped deflection current required in the deflection yoke to linearly sweep the beam with so little error.


----------



## truesper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I see a mild effect like this, too, and big scenic pans in movies make it fairly obvious!
> 
> 
> But the adjustments offered in service mode are fairly coarse: You can squeeze or stretch the screen a bit over a third, maybe a quarter, of its width, but those narrow defects are a mystery to me. It could have to do with the cast-glass tube, a deflection-yoke anomaly, or some badly-placed magnets on the back of the tube -- who knows. Mine occurs in alignment with a slight cyan color shift just left of center, and I know ther is a "nest" of magnets (like cockroaches - I've seen 'em!) on the tube-back there. I'm trying ot get up the nerve to open the set and fiddle, but I haven't yet. I don't know what "problem" the magnets' placement was meant to solve in the first place.
> 
> 
> If it is an electrical issue, I can't begin to guess what would cause a "glitch" in the huge sawtooth-shaped deflection current required in the deflection yoke to linearly sweep the beam with so little error.



Somebody suggested to me that it may be a horizontal linearity issue. Tweaking SLIN (stretch linearity) and/or HCNT (centering/linearity) was a suggested resolution, but this 27FS170 doesn't have those adjustments.


I'm planning to check out the 24FS120 at a store to see if it has the same problem. If I can't find a Wega model free of this defect, I'll have to go for some inferior brand (cry). Curved tube TVs have lots of distortion around the edges, but at least it's not right in the middle of the picture!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *truesper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Somebody suggested to me that it may be a horizontal linearity issue. Tweaking SLIN (stretch linearity) and/or HCNT (centering/linearity) was a suggested resolution, but this 27FS170 doesn't have those adjustments.



It is an h-linearity issue by definition: Any glitch in the smoothness of a horizintal pan indicates a departure from linearity in the sweep current. But the two adjustments you mention are really much too coarse to affect it. SLIN operates over the middle third of the screen, like this:


oooooSSSSSooooo


Looks like what you need is this:


oooooooSooooooo


----------



## truesper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It is an h-linearity issue by definition: Any glitch in the smoothness of a horizintal pan indicates a departure from linearity in the sweep current. But the two adjustments you mention are really much too coarse to affect it. SLIN operates over the middle third of the screen, like this:
> 
> 
> oooooSSSSSooooo
> 
> 
> Looks like what you need is this:
> 
> 
> oooooooSooooooo



I'm surprised not to see more people complaining about this. I've seen the effect in every Sony TV I've looked at so far (32FS170, 27FS170, 34XBR970).


I thought I was going nuts or just too picky, but it's SO obvious every time the screen pans sideways. My old 20" fishbowl tv wasn't exactly the height of geometric correctness, but at least the distortion was at the edges rather than the center of the screen like this.


----------



## truesper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> They're fine, as far as they go, but some are very clumsy to use, the color bars suck, and a valuable pattern may force you to evaluate only part of the screen, when what you need is a repeating pattern that occurs in different places on the screen. In other words, MS test patterns are limited only by your imagination and time, and the built-in patterns, while valuable, are extremely limited.



By the way, I found XBMC's picture viewer to be pretty good for displaying test patterns. It's a homebrew multimedia application that runs on a (mod-chipped) xbox game console. It's convenient because you can browse images over the network. You can also zoom/pan around on them which is useful for detecting some anomalies that are hard to see in a static image (such as the problem I've been complaining about).


----------



## bast525




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *truesper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The effect I see is that objects appear to bulge and ripple as they pass through the middle of the screen.
> 
> 
> I've tinkered extensively with PAMP and UPIN/LPIN, but those don't seem to influence this region of the screen. It seems to be slight concavity along a vertical line in the middle of the screen, rather than a fisheye.
> 
> 
> i.e.,
> 
> |||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
> 
> |||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
> 
> |||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
> 
> |||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
> 
> |||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
> 
> 
> Visually, what I see is objects squeeze as they pass horizontally through the middle of the screen and bulge as they leave. It creates an unpleasant ripple. Vertical movement does not exhibit this flaw at all.
> 
> 
> I'd be extremely grateful to hear some informed opinions about this. It's driving me crazy.




This is EXACTLY what is going on with my XBR970 as well! This is the problem I was trying to explain in the last paragraph of my post #1891, you described it a bit better than I, though







. It seems to affect a larger portion of my screen though, almost 1/4 of the screen is noticeably 'pinched' in the center. I WAS able to use a combination of HCNT and SLIN to improve it a little, and also to fix the 'off center' nature of the stretching that I described a few posts back as well (one side stretched noticably more than the other). Now the screen is equally stretched to either side.


This concave center problem is VERY annoying though, as far as how anything moving horizontally across the screen bulges when at the sides and then squeeeezes as it passes thru the center. It makes it impossible to get a perfectly round circle when using the circle/grid test pattern. I have tried every setting in the SM that has any effect on geometry and have not found one that was able to fix this issue.


I was just about to call a Sony service place today and see if they'd send someone out to fix it, but hearing how many others are having the same problem, I wonder if it CAN be fixed. Hopefully someone here can figure out a setting or combination of settings that can fix this.



On another note, I picked up Avia on Friday and went thru all my settings again. I was already VERRRRY close or spot on with most of them. The THX Optimizer does cover many of the same bases and will get you like 80-90% of the results that Avia will as far as the picture adjustment goes (especially if you get the proper blue filter or glasses from THX, which I hadn't had when I used it hence why Avia did help me zero in on a few of the color adjustments). Avia does have a lot more advanced stuff that seems great but also seems like a lot of people wouldn't ever use it. I would suggest that anyone who has a DVD with the Optimizer on it already do a run thru with that and see if the results are satisfying enough before going out and plunking down $50 for Avia. All that said, I am glad that I bought it and even though the store I bought it from has an open return policy I will hold onto it anyways, as it has a lot of useful info on there that did make it worth the purchase price for me.


About the contrast adjustment on Avia though... I found that as some other people have commented, the test for adjusting contrast is kind of vague and I"m not sure the setting I arrived at is the 'optimal' setting. Even at the highest setting the white square never bloomed (seems newer TV's don't tend to do this). I just turned it down to where I thought the white area still looked white and not gray but w/o a reference I feel like I'm just 'guessing' even if I am close.



KenTech - did a service guy ever pay you a visit? Did you get any results?




EDIT: question, is there an agreed upon 'ideal' amount of overscan to shoot for? Seems the Avia DVD favors 5% overscan since many of it's geometry correction patterns have corner and side markers all placed at 5%. So that's where I adjusted to... just wondering what everyone else does.


----------



## LeRoyK

bast525:


Contrast setting with Avia. The screen has some grey boxes toped by white on the upper half and a white section on the lower half. There is a line on either side to help you as well (needle pulse pattern).


For these sets, raise the Picture control until the lines on either side start to bend, they should be straight. Any Picture setting with bent lines is too high, back off until the lines are straight up and down. Your set may allow Picture to go all the way up without bending the lines, mine did not.


Now get right up in front of your set and look closely at the top portion of the screen. You are looking at the area between scan lines on the gray boxes. The size of the area between scan lines on the white box should be no smaller than the size of the area between scan lines of the grey boxes below it. This is not a ruler kind of measurement, but your eye will be good enough. If the Picture level is too high, the area between scan lines of the top two boxes will be reduced and possibly be missing.


The setting you come up with will probably be a whole lot lower than Sony's defaults and may take some getting used to. But the upside is that your display will be able to show you all of the signal without distortion.


I will leave the other questions to those better informed members of the forum.


Good luck


----------



## bast525

LeRoyK - I tried going by that method but apparently the power supply on my TV sucks! The tutorial says the power supply of the TV is very important in the 'bending lines' portion of the contrast setting test pattern, and that a weak power supply can result in the lines bending easily.


On my TV, I had to set the contrast VERY low to get the lines to stay straight (it was at about 30, and the scales on this TV's menu go from 0-100), low enough that the white box and section of the screen were definately NOT white anymore, but a medium shade of gray.


I will try using your example as far as looking at the areas between the scanlines, to try to get a more correct setting. I will say that even with these issues I did end up setting the contrast quite a bit lower than the factory setting, and the image is dark enough that me and my wife both complained a bit but know we'll get used to it











Honestly I'm a whole lot less concerned about the picture distortion than I am about the idea of drastically shortening the life of this awesome set with too-high contrast!


----------



## truesper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> LeRoyK - I tried going by that method but apparently the power supply on my TV sucks! The tutorial says the power supply of the TV is very important in the 'bending lines' portion of the contrast setting test pattern, and that a weak power supply can result in the lines bending easily.



This issue will cause the image to "bounce", right? I noticed it when moving between menu items in XBMC. An large illustrative graphic fades to black as a transition effect between them and I noticed the whole screen bending surprisingly each time.


I wondered if the quality of the wall-power would contribute to the issue, but it didn't really bother me that much.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Honestly I'm a whole lot less concerned about the picture distortion than I am about the idea of drastically shortening the life of this awesome set with too-high contrast!



On the other hand, would you prefer a beautiful picture you thoroughly enjoy for 5 years, or a marginally degraded dark one you have to live with for 7 years?


----------



## bast525




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *truesper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand, would you prefer a beautiful picture you thoroughly enjoy for 5 years, or a marginally degraded dark one you have to live with for 7 years?




that's a good question... part of me says just let it be brighter since it's definately more enjoyable that way, honestly I was ready to move up to a plasma or LCD TV anyways but they weren't quite ready for ME yet... still too many little issues that made me decide one more generation of CRT was the way to go. If I get a good 3-5 years out of this set I HOPE that will be enough time that LCD will have really fixed the last few issues that I dislike about them (mostly, the response time which causes some fast moving scenes to blur... even a Samsung I tried that claimed 8ms response time had noticeable blur which I couldn't stand).


I'll try as LeRoyK suggested about looking at the space between scanlines. About the wall power being a factor in the bending lines, I don't doubt it... I have reason to believe the power thruought my apartment is kinda taxed by things like the TV and air conditioner. I figured I wouldn't sweat it either way since I dont really know anything I can do whether it's the wall power or the TV's power supply.


----------



## truesper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'll try as LeRoyK suggested about looking at the space between scanlines. About the wall power being a factor in the bending lines, I don't doubt it... I have reason to believe the power thruought my apartment is kinda taxed by things like the TV and air conditioner. I figured I wouldn't sweat it either way since I dont really know anything I can do whether it's the wall power or the TV's power supply.



Maybe I'll steal the ups from my server PC and see whether it makes any difference before I return my set. It does some amount of power-massaging, although I'm not familiar enough with the physics to know whether it would influence the picture.


----------



## darcon_adonis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *darcon_adonis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey! I'm having a slight problem with my set, although it seems to be a common problem with all tube-type TV's.
> 
> 
> You know when you have a primarily black screen, and then there is a spot of white displayed, and you can see where it creates a darker line of black across the whole screen? That is the issue I'm seeing with my TV (although not to the extent of regular TV's, but still noticable in certain conditions).
> 
> 
> Is there any way to fix this, or do I have to deal with it?
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> PS - I guess its worth noting I have my set calibrated based on KenTech's settings and such.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *darcon_adonis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It is as thick as whatever bright image is being displayed.
> 
> 
> To clarify, the streak of darker black is going across the screen horizontally in both directions of say, a small white cube being displayed in the center of a black screen, and the streak is as thick as the hieght of the cube.
> 
> 
> It's also worth noting that I can see this even if I don't use a source and have the TV's white interface appear in the upper corner, to rule out faulty cables or sources.



Bumping my issue again.


----------



## kinggroin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *darcon_adonis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bumping my issue again.




I have this same issue on both my Direct-view and RP crt sets.


I'd love to know why this occurs (it's pretty distracting). Could it have something to do with ANSI performance maybe?


----------



## bast525

well turns out I actually settled on the contrast being a bit too low, maybe.


I looked at the lines of pixels between the different shaded rectangles on the step bar, and adjusted the contrast up until I saw those lines start to smear and lose focus, then turned it back down a few notches. I ended up having the contrast set at 75 (from 0-100 range). At this setting, there is no visible distortion of the white box at any of the edges or between the white and the next step gray box. There is also no 'doming'. The needle pulse lines do bend a little but again, I can turn the contrast all the way down to like 20-30 before that goes away and at that point the picture is VERY dark and the white areas are definately gray, not white. Seems to work, the picture is still darker than I'm used to but I'm adjusting and it still looks really nice.



now if someone can figure out this issue some of us are having with the TV distorting in the center of the screen as described above?


----------



## williamtassone

" VON "


anyone know what this codes for in the service menu? I pressed it by accident on my xbr910 which turned off and flashed red. Unplugged from wall, replugged and it worked straight away.


I think the other code that turns off the Tv whilst in service mode was AKBO


Frightened the bejesus outta me!


----------



## truesper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *williamtassone* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> " VON "
> 
> 
> anyone know what this codes for in the service menu? I pressed it by accident on my xbr910 which turned off and flashed red. Unplugged from wall, replugged and it worked straight away.



"voltage on" perhaps? similar to the the color BON/GON/RON.


----------



## bast525

heh yeah I think it was AKBO that scared the heck outta me too... TV flips out, screen goes all white and crazy then shuts off...


Only thing scarier was the prospect of telling my wife I just broke the TV we just bought for $1100.....


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *williamtassone* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> " VON "
> 
> 
> anyone know what this codes for in the service menu? I pressed it by accident on my xbr910 which turned off and flashed red. Unplugged from wall, replugged and it worked straight away.
> 
> 
> I think the other code that turns off the Tv whilst in service mode was AKBO
> 
> 
> Frightened the bejesus outta me!



Hah! I did the AKBO one, too. It's a test of an internal safety feature that limits excessive CRT-cathode current (but I'll confirm later). Setting AKBO to "1" simulates an over-surrent condition, and the main power supply should shut down. (If it doesn't, the test has failed.) Scary, if you don't know what's happening.


It might be stressful for the TV, who knows. I absolutely avoid it.


I was unaware of "VON." But I'll check the info I have.


----------



## bast525

KenTech - I am currently holding out hope that if anyone, you would find/figure out how to fix this issue with this horizontal distortion I and others are seeing, as far as, things at the center of the screen being horizontal sqeezed inward, and then being horizontally stretched outward at the outer edges of the screen.


Very annoying!!! Seriously... if I can't get this issue fixed one way or another, I am strongly considering getting another TV. Not a great prospect considering this XBR970 was considered THE top of the line CRT that they had there at Circuit City when I bought it, and I wasn't too happy with the high end LCD TV I had taken home previously to (and exchanged for) the Sony.


I play a lot of older style video games, the old school 2-D side horizontally side scrolling kind, and this warping effect is PAINFULLY obvious.


I called one local Sony authorized warranty repair center and they said due to the size of the TV I would have to bring it to them... explain how THAT makes any sense!! I had to pay to have it delivered and don't have easy access to a large vehicle to get it to them. I'll be calling the only other local service center I can find later and see if they can't do any better.


----------



## williamtassone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hah! I did the AKBO one, too. It's a test of an internal safety feature that limits excessive CRT-cathode current (but I'll confirm later). Setting AKBO to "1" simulates an over-surrent condition, and the main power supply should shut down. (If it doesn't, the test has failed.) Scary, if you don't know what's happening.
> 
> 
> It might be stressful for the TV, who knows. I absolutely avoid it.
> 
> 
> I was unaware of "VON." But I'll check the info I have.



kEN


If a CRT over-current is "simulated" does that mean its simulated or real? . It kinda looked real to me and if you could have seen the look of horror on my face when the TV flashed red you would have ROARED out laughing!!!


Fiddling with the service menu really does wonders for the grey hair


Will


By the way Truesper this happened when I was sifting thru the 300+ codes to rediscover the one to rectify the 1 inch hypocoloured border on the left of your Sony!


If only we had ISF guys where I live


----------



## williamtassone

This is what one european says AKBO codes for

http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic....15966&forum=34


----------



## bast525

Hey all just thought I'd post some results I've been having with RYB/RYG/GYB/GYR.


Initially I tried KenTech's recomendation on my XBR970 of 14-14-6-4 which seemed a VAST improvement over the factory's 8-9-9-6 settings.


Then I picked up a copy of avia and readjusted them using the included color film strips and the color decoder test pattern and came up with needing to turn the red back up a bit, but green was left alone, new settings were 12-15-6-4. However, to MY eyes, yellows were now too green tinged and the reds were again just a little too strong.


Then someone clued me in on how to turn off the set's individual color guns, so I went back and did the adjustment this way (supposed to be a bit more accurate than using the film strips).


I figured out that setting the color using the 'flashing blocks' test in Avia and blue gun only, and then going on to the color decoder test, the blue always came up wrong. Which made no sense since looking at either test with blue only should be exactly the same, no? By the way this same thing happened using the color film strip as well. Odd. I tried adjusting BDRV, BCUT and GAMB and none of them fixed this issue. In the end I decided to work 'backwards', doing the color decoder adjustment first and THEN doing the flashing blocks test. I ended up turning the color setting on the regular user menu down a couple notches which made the blue right, then readjusting the RYB/RYG/GYB/GYR settings to bring them back to 0% as well. Now my color decoder test showed more or less perfect on all three colors. Went back and checked the flashing blocks test and now it showed perfect as well even with the lower color setting... problem solved! Oddly, my hue setting was never affected by any of this.


My new settings for RYB etc. are now at 13-15-7-5, and the image now looks perfect to me, no longer tinged too green, reds seem just right. The color decoder test on Avia shows all colors at 0% over or underdriven, and again the flashing blocks color and hue tests are zeroed in perfectly. And I... am one happy camper







Oh, and I also made a few more geometry adjustments that improved the issue I was having with the horizontal linearity (not completely fixed though, just improved). The image on this set just keeps getting better










I'm putting the Avia disc away for awhile now, I think, and am just going to enjoy watching some TV











EDIT: by the way for anyone interested, my user menu settings are: picture - 70, bright - 48, color - 45, hue - R3, sharp - 35, color temp nuetral, VM off (and all VM settings in service menu OFF). All my service menu settings that effect color are left as the factory set them except for the RYB set. As a matter of fact, just about the ONLY SM settings I have adjusted at all are the RYB set, the VM settings, the focus settings, and settings to do with geometry. I know some would probably say my picture setting is too high but any lower than that and white starts not to look white anymore.


----------



## DuVal

There seems to be a problem downloading the attachments . I guess the administrator will have to take a look.


By the way. Im new to this post .Im the owner of an xbr910. THE TV WAS SERVICED maybe a year ago . The shop claimed they replaced the (B board).

Its was never the same.Geometry is off as well as brightness.Last month I came opon this post and website ,Downloaded the service codes and did some research . The default settings in the set, In many instances dont match the ones listed in the pdf download. So my Question is Should i go thru the entire list of codes And change the values to the ones in the pdf file or ,Do I have an authorized service center take a look at the set . Any input would be helpful!


Thanks !


----------



## bast525




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DuVal* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There seems to be a problem downloading the attachments . I guess the administrator will have to take a look.
> 
> 
> By the way. Im new to this post .Im the owner of an xbr910. THE TV WAS SERVICED maybe a year ago . The shop claimed they replaced the (B board).
> 
> Its was never the same.Geometry is off as well as brightness.Last month I came opon this post and website ,Downloaded the service codes and did some research . The default settings in the set, In many instances dont match the ones listed in the pdf download. So my Question is Should i go thru the entire list of codes And change the values to the ones in the pdf file or ,Do I have an authorized service center take a look at the set . Any input would be helpful!
> 
> 
> Thanks !




The great thing about tweaking the settings in the service menu is that nothing you do is set in stone unless you purposely enter the key sequence to write it to memory (mute then enter).


So you are free to experiment til the cows come home. In your case, this means, yes, by all means, try the listed factory defaults from the pdf and see if that makes an improvement. If it makes things worse, just hit number 0 then enter to reset everything you changed back to how it was before you started tinkering.


You should also write down all the settings as they are set right now, just in case. That way you can always go back even if you write over something by accident or change your mind.


I found that Geometry was pretty easy to tweak... with a proper crosshatch pattern displayed, it's easy to see most geometry defects, and then go thru the service menu section handling geometry, try each setting one at a time, see how they affect the issue, and then make any changes that improve the situation. It took me several hours of tinkering spread over a few nights, but now I have a pretty decent understanding of what effect each of those settings has, and have made a huge improvement in the geometry of my TV. It was intimidating as hell when I first saw all the settings but now I'm glad I persisted. My set still isn't 100% perfect but it's MUCH, NOTICEABLY better than it was, even my wife easily notices it which is saying a lot!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *williamtassone* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> " VON "
> 
> 
> anyone know what this codes for in the service menu? I pressed it by accident on my xbr910 which turned off and flashed red. Unplugged from wall, replugged and it worked straight away.



Looking back to an older manual for the XBR2-series TVs, "VON" is described as "vertical-drive ON," i.e. it switches vertical deflection on or off. Our 2170D-5/#1-VON is marked as a temporary-only setting and is never memorized, defaulting to 1 (on).


I'm not surprised that the screen goes black! Remove the vertical deflection, and you are throwing all the electron flux that would be otherwise spread out over the whole screen into a _single horizintal line_. I'll bet it would burn the CRT in short order, and I'm guessing the turnoff is a wise protection.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hah! I did the AKBO one, too. It's a test of an internal safety feature that limits excessive CRT-cathode current (but I'll confirm later). Setting AKBO to "1" simulates an over-surrent condition, and the main power supply should shut down. (If it doesn't, the test has failed.) Scary, if you don't know what's happening.
> 
> 
> It might be stressful for the TV, who knows. I absolutely avoid it.



I looked into AKB in earlier manuals, and it looks like it refers to a system that detects a color-gun gross imbalance, as if one of the guns shorts out or something.


Quoting the 34XBR2 manual,

"White Balance Failure: If the RGB levels* do not balance within 2 seconds after the power is turned on, this error will be detected by IC201. TV will stay on, but there will be no picture.


*(Refers to the RGB levels of the AKB detection Ref pulse that detects 1K).
A fault condition is indicated by a 1, so I guess you cause this by setting AKBO to 1, and the set should shut down appropriately. Presumably the total-red flash before shutdown is that very "fault." It is likely a _simulated_ fault, and the set's _response_ is real. (Otherwise it wouldn't be much of a test.)


There are overcurrent and overvoltage protections, too (OVC and OVP), as well as h-stop and v-stop (loss of deflection). The VON shutoff is likely one of these.

*EDIT:* See the rather definitive statement on this, found by williamtrassone in an agoraquest.com forum, *here* .


----------



## KenTech

Finally! I think I have put together a useful *Table of Contents* for this forum, so folks can browse it to find particular topics, and posters can lift URLs from it to point to items already discussed. I will update it periodically. I'm also posting a copy at the beginning of the forum, in message #1. I'll try to unify the article-numbering system and reconsider a bit of the formatting for clarity's sake.


What goes into it is obviously a matter of judgement, but please PM me with suggestions and especially errors. There were so many copy, paste, and drag opertions, there's gotta be some flubs. If anyone knows more formatting codes than the usual few (are they XML, HTML, or what?), please point me to a listing that might work, here.


----------



## KenTech

*A TABLE OF CONTENTS FOR THIS FORUM*
_[Currently ends at message #1940, 16 Aug 2006]_


Assume that any link below may be just the _beginning_ of a subject, and that the discussion/responses may continue for many posts to follow. Please PM me with corrections and suggestions. Links are underlined. Attached-file links are indented.

*Forum Pages 1-10 (30 messages per page), Posts #1-300*

01 - INTRODUCTION 

- - hs420 service data chart.pdf 

- - XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf 
Excel Service-Codes Listing 

- - servicecodelisting.zip 
02 - NAVIGATING SERVICE MODE 

- - servmodehelp.zip 
03 - COLOR CALIBRATION AND BLACK LEVEL 
04 - ADJUSTING GAMMA 
05 - CUSTOMIZING PICTURE MODES 
06 - AUTO BRIGHTNESS LIMITING 
07 - DYNAMIC FOCUS 

- - servicecodeslist (34XBR910).pdf 

- - convergencepage.pdf (HS420) 

- - geometrypages.pdf (HS420) 
RE: Dead on Startup + Fix 
08 - SOME USEFUL TEST PATTERNS 

- - converg_geom_test.zip 
FOCUS TEST PATTERNS 

- - focus16by9.zip 

- - focus4by3.zip 
"SPOKES" TEST PATTERN 

- - spokes.zip 
ADJACENT-COLOR TEST PATTERN 

- - adjacentcolors.zip 
CURRENT-GAMMA TEST PATTERN 

- - curr_gamma_test.zip 
09 - GETTING GOOD GRAYSCALE 
10 - "PRESETS" AND RELATED SERVICE CODES 

- - xs955|xbr960 geometry.pdf 

- - xs955 service data.pdf 

- - 34XBR960 service data.pdf 
11 - IMPROVING THE AUDIO 
12 - OPTIMIZING IMAGE DECODING, "SHAPING," AND ENHANCEMENT 

- - Image_Processing_rev1_1.pdf 

- - image_optimizing-pats.zip 
4:3 and 16:9 Focus Test Patterns 

- - focusmatrix_4x3sparse.zip 

- - focusmatrix_16x9sparse.zip 

Convergence-geometry manual pages, XBR960+XS955:

- - xbr960_conv_geom_p1-6.pdf 

- - xbr960_conv_geom_p7-10.pdf 
Comments on convergence, LANDING settings 
Comments on colorimetry and the 6500K standard begin 

- - XS955|XBR960 Block Diagram.pdf 
Ref. to Poynton etc. regarding Gamma and here 
13.1 - PRECISION FOCUSING: ACCESSING THE INTERNAL FOCUS CONTROL 

- - Part1_Figures.zip 
13.2 - PRECISION FOCUSING: A RECOMMENDED PROCEDURE 

- - FocusMatrix_4x3_1080.zip 

- - FocusMatrix_16x9_1080.zip 

- - Part2_Figs_Patterns.zip 
Comment on balancing SBRT, Brightness, and the UBOF settings 
14 - A SERVICE-MODE BUG; THE DVE PLASTIC VIEWING FILTERS 
15 - THE COLOR OF BLACK: OTHER POSSIBLE COLOR ADJUSTMENTS 
The set Color to Min controversy & setting grayscale & offsets begins here 
Color balance vs color push 
Judging color tints & pitfalls 

*Forum Pages 11-20 #301-600*

White screen and color blobs 
White clipping or brightness limiting as it applies to these TVs 
The industry standards diatribe 
More on intensity vs the CRT's capabilities 
Dynamic Picture, Gamma, and the non-Pro modes 

- - The Excel Spreadsheet, ADR version 
Reference to online copy of 34XBR2 service manual 

- - The geometry pages from the above manual (PDF file) 
Intro to internal test patterns and also here 
Wrong method for adjusting overscan! See this caution .
Setting black level for different inputs again (long) 
Geometry-adjustment & magnets, real-world experience 
Bad advice again on height & width adjustments in MID processor (DSperber) . See this caution .

*Forum Pages 21-30, #601-900*

DSperber again on geometry 
KenTech: Refining the image; eliminating ringing & edge enhancement 

- - The referenced chart, latest version (IPChart06Tall.pdf) 
Comments on focusing the tube 
The service-codes charts, again 

- - 34XBR910 Service Menu vADR.zip 

- - XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf 
Warning about warmup changes 
Discussion of MTRX (SD vs HD color matrices) 
Nitewatchman starts his  breathless posts 
Nitewatchman on MS color and MTRX unpredictability 
KenTech on MTRX & service-data charts 

Coring and Limiting in the image processing discussed here and here 
Using the QM test patterns for color calibration 
Argument for DIY adjustment 
Centering the raster and the video frame 
Warning for fast-fingers on remote while in service mode 
HELPFUL NEW CHARTS 

- - GS&ColorCharts04.pdf 

*Forum Pages 31-40, #901-1200*

Using a DVD frame for show-and-tell 

- - Sample frame from Monsters, Inc. 
Cautions on color correction in CXA2171 processor 
A suggestion on using the Picture Modes for experimentation 
Observation on the characteristics of the SYSM settings in 2170P-3 
Observation on the configuring of VM 

More image-processing parameters discussed here (ADU) and also here (ADU) 
Image-processing as a frequency-response matter (several messages) 
More on sharpness and how SM-settings affect it (Napoleon D) 
The HDPT (high-def pass-thru) parameter Is it dangerous? 
Recommendations for small Warm and Cool color offsets and here 
Article: The Neglected CXA-2103 Image Filters and Their Significant Effects on Image Quality and this revision note 
New experiments with the 2103-1 parameters, SSMD and PPHA 

- - New Image-Processing Codes Chart: IPChart06tall.pdf 
ADU: More on image-detail parameters 
A method of setting LANDING parameters 
Definitive Statement Regarding Phosphor "Lag" (Persistence) 
Article: Tuning the 2103 Processor for the Cleanest, Sharpest Picture 
Article: A New Approach to SYSM=3 Image Processing 
More on what MIDE is all about 
Minor Changes to SYSM=3 Recommendations and "Tuning" the 2103 Chip 
Some clarification about VM (scan-velocity modulation) 
SERVICE-MODE DOCUMENTS & CHARTS REPOST 

- - XS955|XBR960 conv_geom_p1-6.pdf 

- - XS955|XBR960 conv_geom_p7-10.pdf 

- - XS955|XBR960 Service Data.pdf 

*Forum Pages 41-50, #1201-1500*

More on color and its decoding matrix 
BY REQUEST, A FEW CURRENT SETTINGS (KenTech) 
A summary of the internal test patterns 
A source of convergence-correction magnets? (DSperber) 
Service-mode AUDIO settings (and see subsequent posts) and also here 

- - Also see conflicting data tables here 

*Forum Pages 51-60, #1501-1800*

Is the high voltage going to kill you? 
Green or pink blobs that come and go 
HDTV bit depth & standards (Nitewatchman) 
Discussion of how Sony TVs scale the various video inputs (different forum) 
Discussion of what the MID1-MID3 groups do 
RWetmore's discovery about setting RDRV~BCUT very high & discussion 
Yet another discussion of white balance and the need for 6500K 
Restatement of Sony's official centering-adjustment method and here 
KenTech's firm position on the 6500K controversy 

- - Useful test pattern for photographing grayscale on-screen: Pluge + ExtremeGray.pdf 
Comment on eyeballing grayscale adjustment and associated rationales 
Test pattern: TRIED-AND-TRUE SELF-REFERENCING GRAYSCALE CALIBRATION 

- - GSLinearityTest2.zip 
Nitewatchman: Long commentary on his grayscale experiments 
Article: MEASURING SCREEN BRIGHTNESS WITH A PHOTO LIGHT METER 

- - Referenced graph for above article in ZIP and PDF formats
Discussion of whether the _CUT settings really affect black level begins 

(OT) KenTech rant about the (measured) low screen brightness in theaters 
Article: EQUIVALENCE OF VARIOUS BLACK-LEVEL ADJUSTMENTS, OFFSETS, AND COLOR CUTOFFS 
Caution about adjusting height in the MID1-3 groups 
Color-cutoff discussion, a question and its resolution 
KenTech's experiments with RWetmore's high _CUT settings and here 
RWetmore's satisfaction with his grayscale settings 
Using RGBS for isolating the red, green, and blue CRT guns 
The difference between the _DRV and _CUT settings and RYR~GYB 

*Forum Pages 61-70, #1801-2100*

An input-calibration method (Nitewatchman) 
A question: What does 2170P-1/DCOL do (dynamic color)? and a proposed answer .
Discussion of sidebar size, blanking, overscan 
Different experiences with color calibration, especially non-DVD 
A problem with vertical linearity and SD vs HD 
More on dangerous service-mode button combinations 
DVI, HDMI, black level, and bit depth 
Definitions of horizontal and vertical color convergence 
Using a Memory Stick for test patterns 
Success with color-decoder adjustment (bast525) 
What is VON and AKBO? They shut down my TV! Plus a definitive statement here


----------



## truesper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *truesper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm planning to check out the 24FS120 at a store to see if it has the same problem. If I can't find a Wega model free of this defect, I'll have to go for some inferior brand (cry). Curved tube TVs have lots of distortion around the edges, but at least it's not right in the middle of the picture!



Verdict:

24" model has the same horizontal distortion.


20" model does *not* seem to have the distortion. Of course, I am tempted to ascribe this to the screen being too small to notice. There were some geometry probles with the ancient abused display model, but I didn't see the charactaristic squeeze in the middle of the screen.


Now I just need to finish convincing myself that it's worth using a tiny 20" display for a distortion-free picture 


All the TVs at circuit city are a mess in terms of calibration. I was dying to demand a remote and fix the sony ones . I guess because the display TVs get so much use, they all had major noticable "bounce" issues.


----------



## williamtassone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looking back to an older manual for the XBR2-series TVs, "VON" is described as "vertical-drive ON," i.e. it switches vertical deflection on or off. Our 2170D-5/#1-VON is marked as a temporary-only setting and is never memorized, defaulting to 1 (on).
> 
> 
> I'm not surprised that the screen goes black! Remove the vertical deflection, and you are throwing all the electron flux that would be otherwise spread out over the whole screen into a _single horizintal line_. I'll bet it would burn the CRT in short order, and I'm guessing the turnoff is a wise protection.



spot on , and the ubiquitous european agrees

http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic....25703&forum=34


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *williamtassone* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> spot on , and the ubiquitous european agrees



He identifies himself as "BoraBora." I think we should quote his excellent description from agoraquest.com. Here's his first post from 8.30.2004:

The acronym AKB stands for 'Automatic Kathode Biasing' (however in English 'cathode' is used).


In modern TV's, there is a circuit which produces a red, a green and a blue horizontal line on the upper top of the screen. Due to overscanning these lines is normally not visible. (On most Sony 4:3 tubes you can see this line when you select 16:9 mode).


These lines have a fixed drive value and by measuring the current through the three guns of the picture tube on the very moment this lines are displayed, the AKB-circuit gets an indication how the state of the picture tube is.


When one gun detoriates more then the other, the white balance would become bad. When the green gun has lesser 'power' then the red and blue one, white colors would be purple.


But, when the AKB circuit detects the fallback of the green gun gun, it increases it's drive level so that it compensates it's detoriation. Due to this circuit, white stays white during the whole lifetime span of the tube. Decolorations as could be seen in former days are impossible with this circuit. But: when the tube is completely bad (mostly after + 20.000 hours), the AKB circuit cannot compensate this any more and exchanging the tube is the only remedy. (Technically, because most of the time the cost are thus high that it's not economically a good option.)


When the AKB circuit detects that the beam current of one of the three guns is out of range, it is reported to the microprocessor which will raise error code 5. This doesn't always mean that the tube is worn out; when one of the supply voltages, such as G2 or heater, isn't present, also no beam current is detected.)
And his more recent post on the subject on 8.17.2006:

'VON' will put the vertical deflection on or off. If vertical deflection is stopped - and you will get one bright horizontal line across the screen - there is risk that the CRT burns in. To avoid that, the vertical protection will instruct the uP to switch off the set and an error code will be raisen.


'AKB0' has something to do with Automatic Cathode Biasing. As the parameter symbol for cathode current is 'Ik' ('I' for current, 'k' for cathode), it's acronym is AKB. To achieve the same white balance during the total lifespan of the picture tube, the driving signals are adjusted to the emission characteristics of the CRT. During the lifetime of the CRT, the emission of the three guns will decrease. When the driving signals are not corrected and stay the same, the intensity of tle light of the red, blue or green gun will also decrease and the white balance will become poor. The deflection of a TV will always have some 'overscan', meaning that there are some lines which are behind the mask of the CRT. The very first line on the top of the screen is used for AKB. The three guns are driven just after each other. At that moment, the result in beam current is measured. If the result of this measurement is that one or more of the guns couldn't reach their nominal value (which are set in the service menu), the driving signal of the requested channel is increased a little. During the next frame, the same process starts again. This makes a permanent control of AKB possible. If the beam current couldn't reach the value required and the driving signals are maximum, whitebalance couldn't corrected anymore and the CRT is at it end of life.


Regards,


Bora.


----------



## kinggroin

No answer huh?



Cool.


----------



## KenTech

Quote:

Originally Posted by *darcon_adonis, kinggroin*
I'm having a slight problem with my set, although it seems to be a common problem with all tube-type TV's. You know when you have a primarily black screen, and then there is a spot of white displayed, and you can see where it creates a darker line of black across the whole screen?
I have just made up a MS test pattern with three 100% white rectangles against a 5% background (very dark gray, almost black). See attached file. I displayed this at my normal, generously bright Picture setting on my Sony 36XS955. There are NO auto-black or "dynamic picture" effects working.


No matter how close I look, I can't see the problem. The nearly-black screen to the left and right of those rectangles is exactly the same as parts above and below. There are no darker stripes extending to the left and right of the white patches. No adjustment of the Brightness slider will make it visible.


I have seen this on cheapie TVs with unsophisticated video circuits, but never on my current TV nor on my Mitsubishi CRT computer monitor -- not even a little.


If I can't witness it, I can't comment on it. (And no, I do not watch in a completely dark room!)

 

SmallWhiteRects-jpg.zip 1.5771484375k . file


----------



## bast525

I've seen the problem Kinggroin is talking about, and yes it is definatley more prevalent on cheaper TV's (I have a 20" RCA CRT flat screen in my second bedroom that does it BADLY).


But then again, my rather pricey and high end (at the time I bought it, at least! about five years ago







) 27" Wega CRT also did this to some degree.


But this new Sony XBR970 doesnt' seem to do it as far as I can tell.



KenTech - advice please. I thought I had this issue licked, but apparently not. Using Avia, the Color Decoder test pattern and flashing blue bars/saturation and hue adjust patterns.


I have tried doing the saturation/hue first and then the color decoder, or working backwards doing the color decoder than sat/hue, and keep arriving with the same result.


Basically, when I set my color slider or SCOL so that the flashing block all but dissapears on the sat/hue test screen, and then check the color decoder test screen, blue ends up being underdriven at like -10%. Which makes NO sense to me, since they SHOULD be exactly the same, no? Meaning, if you get blue matched on one, it should show up at being perfect at 0% on the other, right? I have tried various combinations of adjusting SCOL/color slider, RYB-G and GYR-B and again, I can everything to match perfectly on the decoder screen but then the sat/hue test screen does NOT match. Am I missing something or doing something wrong??


Also, after I spent some more time with this I found to get all three color bars to match at 0% over/underdrive, I ended up with RYB and RYG at 15, and GYR and GYB at 0!! And I had to turn SCOL back up a few notches. Even though the color bars said this was right, it certainly did not LOOK right to my eyes.


Is there a 'perfect' way to do this, like a specific order I NEED to follow or some other setting I'm not using? I just want to get the balance of color right and not have any colors 'pushing' or underdriven.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there a 'perfect' way to do this, like a specific order I NEED to follow or some other setting I'm not using? I just want to get the balance of color right and not have any colors 'pushing' or underdriven.



The order in which the color bars are presented does just fine. (I hope you are using 2170P-2/SRGB to switch the color guns on and off; the plastic filters aren't as accurate.) I put in my AVIA disk and reminded myself how it goes, using the component inputs. (I have usually used the DVE static pattern.)


First pattern: set Color and Hue on a blue screen for minimum flashing. You can go back and forth until it's right. (And this should be the first step.)


Second pattern, red screen: Set RYR and RYB for minimum flashing.


Third pattern, green screen: Set GYR and GYB for minimum flashing.


I get either 14-14-6-4 or 14-15-6-4, depending on how I interpret what I see on-screen, and those values jive with the DVE pattern. There is only a barely detectablle difference between those settings, so it's no sweat. I set Monitor to one, and Normal to the other. Really hard to see the tiny difference unless you stare at something very red and switch between Normal and Monitor. 14-15-6-4 has a _tiny_ bit less red intensity.


Having done that, I checked out AVIA's color-decoder test pattern for the three colors, and they come in at 0% for me -- but that's a fairly crude pattern, and I would use it only for a quick assessment of a TV's decoder. Clearly the +5 and -5% blocks don't match the background, but the blurry outlines around each block sure make it imprecise.


The flashing AVIA patterns, DVE's static pattern, or the memory-stick pattern uploaded months ago (with MTRX manually set to 1) all give me results that are very close. So I'm not sure what your problem could be.


----------



## RWetmore

I have been further experimenting with the color decoder settings, and recently I've found that 15-15-6-4 does a good job of getting rid of the red push and looks natural.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been further experimenting with the color decoder settings, and recently I've found that 15-15-6-4 does a good job of getting rid of the red push and looks natural.



The -6-4 part seems almost cast in stone. But various combinations of 14-14-, 13-15-, 14-15-, and 15-15- differ only slightly. I would suggest that this is a calibration issue, not a looking natural issue. After calibration, it _should_ look natural, indeed, or the TV's not the problem. I'm convinced that certain program material is color-pushed (not the classy network stuff so much, but lots of ads are!), and so it may not look natural because it isn't natural. I would trust the AVIA and DVE disks to get you great calibration for your DVDs, and broadcast SD seems very close -- with some variability you can't control, of course.


The internal test patterns, crude as they are, aren't bad for checking out your HD display, either, especially that half-and-half blue-and-gray screen for setting color intensity.


Folks who just want to get rid of the Sony-standard red push could just dial-in 14-15-6-4, say, and come so close that further tinkering might not even be worthwhile.


----------



## bast525

Agreed. Before I had the Avia disc handy I just tried 13-15-6-4 and then 14-14-6-4 and either looked FAR better than the factory setting and I would not have changed them again at all but I did end up getting Avia so going back and tweaking them further.


After tweaking with avia I had ended up with 13-15-7-5, but I must have done something wrong because as I mentioned earlier, I went back and rechecked again the next day and everything was off again, when I had sworn that the color decoder chart had shown all my color drive/underdrive at 0%.


Kentech - yes I'm using the method of turning off the guns instead of the color filters. And I hadn't known until you mentioned it that there were patterns with the flashing windows for green and red as well, I thought there was only that pattern for blue/overall saturation, and was then using the chart that showed all three colors with the percentile markings to set my RYR/RYB/GYR/GYB settings.


Now that I know there are the flashing block patterns for the other colors I will try it that way today and see what I get.


In the meantime, geometry is still driving me nuts with that strange 'squish' in the center of the screen.


I have started another thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...35#post8252635 . For everyone checking this thread who owns an Xbr970 or even the SFP 960, I could use your help. I just need some different settings to try for geometry as what I'm trying isn't really getting me the results I'm hoping for. So please if you own a 960 or 970 check that thread and help me out!


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And I hadn't known until you mentioned it that there were patterns with the flashing windows for green and red as well, I thought there was only that pattern for blue/overall saturation



Oh, yes! You got only about 1/2 of the way thru the calibration. The red and green flashing bars are _the method_ for calibrating for zero color push, and you inadvertently skipped it. No wonder the color-decoder test still fails!


Don't fret -- they're easy!


----------



## bast525




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh, yes! You got only about 1/2 of the way thru the calibration. The red and green flashing bars are _the method_ for calibrating for zero color push, and you ionadvertently skipped it. No wonder the color-decoder test still fails!
> 
> 
> Don't fret -- they're easy!



yeah still a LOT of patterns I haven't even touched yet. I missed the flashing bars for red and green because when you go thru the tutorial it only covers the blue/saturation and then goes straight to the decoder test. Once I went thru the tutorial/guided part of the calibration I jumped straight to fiddling with geometry using the crosshatch and overscan patterns. I didn't know how much further in depth the color adjustment went on this disc... glad to know it though










There is still quite a bit I haven't really gotten into, for instance I haven't TOUCHED gray scale and probably won't simply because I don't trust my eyes enough










I will try out the flashing bars for all three colors today and see what results I get but as of right now I am REALLY happy with the picture at 14-14-7-5... from what I'm reading though that should already be REALLY close and any minor changes probably won't be very noticeable.


----------



## bast525

Hey just wanted to update. I popped in Avia yesterday and calibrated the colors using the flashing block patterns for ALL THREE colors this time (as opposed to just using the blue flashing block pattern and then the color decoder chart to adjust red/green).


Found out I was already right there with KenTech's initial number recommendation of 13-15-6-4. 14-14-6-4 also seems to work.


Unfortunately, this STILL seems just a little too green to my eyes even if the DVD shows it matching perfectly. So I turned the green back up to 7-5 from 6-4 and now it looks perfect to me.


Ah well.. the directors of all those movies will just need to forgive me my transgression










On another note I am now VERY likely going to trade this TV back in anyways. The geometry issues are driving me nuts, and I went down to Circuit City to check out their display unit of the same set, and saw that it too had some pretty bad geometry issues that, now that I'm much more familiar with the settings in the SM, I dont' think would be easily fixed.


I was planning on possibly exchanging for the same model but I bet money ANY of that model that I would get are more than likely going to have some unfixable geometry issues.


I'm now back to considering LCD or possibly Plasma.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bast525* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was planning on possibly exchanging for the same model but I bet money ANY of that model that I would get are more than likely going to have some unfixable geometry issues. I'm now back to considering LCD or possibly Plasma.



Every display technology has its quirks and strengths, and you just have to match the display to what's important to you. I have chosen to stick with direct-view CRT because of the spectacularly accurate and intense color capability, and for the ability to reproduce jet black and good shadow color. For me, none of the other technologies does as well, and they each have a "personality" that suits me less than a CRT. For that, I have to forgive the geometry and color-convergence errors that accompany almost all CRT displays. Ya pick yer poison!


AFAIK, the major Sony sets all have an accessible service mode, so you could learn the "tricks" for whatever you buy.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Every display technology has its quirks and strengths, and you just have to match the display to what's important to you. I have chosen to stick with direct-view CRT because of the spectacularly accurate and intense color capability, and for the ability to reproduct jet black and good shadow color. For me, none of the other technologies does as well, and they each have a "personality" that suits me less than a CRT. For that, I have to forgive the geometry and color-convergence errors accompany almost all CRT displays. Ya pick yer poison!



Agreed. For me, what the other technologies lack most is the ability to do a true black, and it seems some of them by the nature of how their technology works, never will be able to.


I only hope SED delivers as promised when it finally comes out. Based on Toshiba's claims, it should be the holy grail of display technologies. True blacks, perfect focus, rich color, less than a 1ms response time, plasma prices, light weight, big sizes, etc., etc.. A tall order to fill....we'll see.


----------



## Oliver Deplace

I have a 34xs that had color problems. Fleshtones would change according to light and shadow. A face that's front lighted would look fine, but when a shadow fell across the face, it contained magenta and it bugged me. I knew it could be fixed, but didn't feel like doing it.

I consulted an ISF calibrator and he tells me, "It can't be fixed". He was adamant.

Great, this triggers immediate FUD.


Read this thread and did it myself. Funny thing is, the initial problem was fixed quickly and easily, CROF/CBOF did the trick. I spent a lot more time setting grayscale and getting the geometry squared (







) away.

I've become more intimate with the service menu than I had ever intended and it took quite a while before I got to the point where I could enjoy the TV without analyzing the picture. But, I'm there now and I'm happy.


Anyway, thanks Ken and thanks to all who've contributed.


----------



## bast525

KenTech - true words and good advice. I did have to sort of reassess my priorities. Since my #1 factor considered when buying a TV is how games are going to look on it, I figured that the 'perfect' picture for movies isn't as high a priority. So I can look past the not-perfect blacks. The geometry was killing me though... all that warping and bending as things moved across the screen, and perfect squares and circles being stretched into rectangles and ovals.


Yeah... factor out the geometry and slight convergence issues at the sides, and that TV had an awesome picture. It just wasn't the right poison for me










So I returned it and swapped for a Sony 42" rear projection LCD. So far I love it, I haven't figured out how to fix the signature sony red push yet, other than that, the TV has an awesome picture except, yep, no perfect blacks, though they aren't BAD at all, not as bad as the Samsung flat panel LCD I tried. Oh, and that 'silk screen effect' that you get with projection TV's is apparent though doesn't bug me as much as I thought.



EDIT: by the way, that XBR970 was apparently also defective in one other way, or at least, sucked horribly in it... when I just got a regular indoor antenna, it really struggled to pick up a few local stations and didn't pick up ANY digital/HD OTA broadcasts. I had chalked it up to just possibly being in a bad area.


The LCD RPTV however, begs to differ... it picked up over 20 OTA SD channels and 13 OTA HD/digital channels using the same set of 'rabbit ears'!!


And OTA HD is gorgeous







almost hard to believe it's free. Dunno why the XBR didn't pick any of them up....

Now just gotta fix that red push!!!


KenTech - too bad you'll never end up getting one of these RP tv's... would be awesome to have such a great an informative thread as this pertaining to this new TV


----------



## Napoleon D




> Quote:
> Unfortunately, this STILL seems just a little too green to my eyes even if the DVD shows it matching perfectly. So I turned the green back up to 7-5 from 6-4 and now it looks perfect to me.



I found that 14-14-6-4 looked a little bit too green for my Sony as well. It gave the entire image just the slightest hint of oversaturated green, making the image less natural and vibrant. 14-14 looked just fine for reds. But for greens, 6 and 4 certainly did make the 2 boxes a completely even shade of green, with each other, but it was a shade of green just a hint darker than the background green. The alternative was 4 and 3. Which had the 2 boxes a little uneven with each other, but each blending into the background moreso than the 6-4 combo. I asked myself which I preferred, an oversaturation or a slight undersaturation of greens. Judging by how the image looks, undersaturation was a far more attractive way to go. Gone is the green hue and replaced is a completely natural look, which also resembles the accuracy of colors on film. I have had my color-decoding on 14-14-4-3 for many months now, and it is the most accurate and natural looking for all of my inputs.


While I swear by 14-14-4-3, this is just what has worked for my display. The display which this thread is based around, seems to be a different one from mine.


----------



## GlenC

Don't overlook the fact that there are variances in the different component/HDMI/DVI source signals generating a need for different color decoder settings. "Perfect" decoder settings in the TV may be noticeably off from those needed for, say, a HD TiVo.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I found that 14-14-6-4 looked a little bit too green for my Sony as well. It gave the entire image just the slightest hint of oversaturated green, making the image less natural and vibrant. 14-14 looked just fine for reds. But for greens, 6 and 4 certainly did make the 2 boxes a completely even shade of green, with each other, but it was a shade of green just a hint darker than the background green. The alternative was 4 and 3. Which had the 2 boxes a little uneven with each other, but each blending into the background moreso than the 6-4 combo. I asked myself which I preferred, an oversaturation or a slight undersaturation of greens. Judging by how the image looks, undersaturation was a far more attractive way to go. Gone is the green hue and replaced is a completely natural look, which also resembles the accuracy of colors on film. I have had my color-decoding on 14-14-4-3 for many months now, and it is the most accurate and natural looking for all of my inputs.
> 
> 
> While I swear by 14-14-4-3, this is just what has worked for my display. The display which this thread is based around, seems to be a different one from mine.



Yes, I have found that 14-14-4-3 is also excellent. 14-14-6-4 is little greenish, but also less reddish; at some point a compromise must be made. It is either a tad too greenish or a tad too reddish...I haven't been able to find the perfect balance of the two. I have tried all kinds of combinations. Kind of annoying. Too bad Sony didn't implement finer adjustments with these settings...say like 31 values instead of only 15. Oh well...can't have everything.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Too bad Sony didn't implement finer adjustments with these settings...say like 31 values instead of only 15. Oh well...can't have everything.



Count your blessings, many TVs don't have color decoder adjustments and more and more are eliminating them.


----------



## bast525

heheh GlenC is not kidding.


Well after going crazy fiddling with the geometry on my XBR970 I jumped ship... yes it had a great picture but the geometry issues were severe and very distracting.


So now I have this RP LCD, and it doesn't have the same kind of color decoder settings that the XBR had... at least, not that anyone seems to know of just yet! It does have R, G, and B Gain settings, and Drive settings, but there isn't a setting that seems to work exactly how RYB-RYG-GYR-GYB worked. Instead, there is a color axis setting which works similiar to the color axis setting in the regular user menu of the XBR, but this time it's buried in the service menu and has DOZENS of possible settings, none of which are clearly labeled, nor do they work progessively... one setting may have red push and green pull, the next may have no red push but green pull, the next may have red pull and green pull.... nothing in order and nothing makes sense. Luckily, we've found a single setting that seems to get the color decoder perfect, at +/- 5% on all colors. BUT... this results in a VERY bad green tint to the yellows, much worse than what I saw on the XBR... pure yellow looks more like lemon-skin yellow... way too green. Some of us think this may have something to do with the actual projector light itself. We have noticed that adjusting the iris/light output of the light causes a shift in the greyscale.


Ah well.. kinda OT I know, sorry bout that. But was just saying... yeah... seems newer and newer TV's have less adjustments to play with. And the service menus may be getting less user friendly to the average joe as well.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Don't overlook the fact that there are variances in the different component/HDMI/DVI source signals generating a need for different color decoder settings. "Perfect" decoder settings in the TV may be noticeably off from those needed for, say, a HD TiVo.



This is why it is valuable to have two registers for remembering color-axis settings: Default and Monitor. You can set one of them for most inputs and the other for the "oddball" input that doesn't quite jive with the others.


The names "Default" and "Monitor" are of no significance: You can redefine the settings for any putpose you wish, just like the so-called Warm and Cool color-temp settings. Same with so-called Vivid, Pro, Standard, and Movie for picture modes. (Wish we could edit the names.)


When I try out a new setting for the color matrix, I keep one of those two as my previous settings, and assign the new settings to the other. Then I can switch while watching a program to see if there is a significant difference. Currently, for example, I have Default set to 14-14-6-4 (last few months' settings) and am trying out 14-15-6-4 on Monitor. Seems to balance over-the-top reds on broadcast SD, but the difference between the two is _really_ small.


----------



## williamtassone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I only hope SED delivers as promised when it finally comes out. Based on Toshiba's claims, it should be the holy grail of display technologies. True blacks, perfect focus, rich color, less than a 1ms response time, plasma prices, light weight, big sizes, etc., etc.. A tall order to fill....we'll see.



I just spoke to an american in Japan who saw it SED in the flesh last year- wet his pants at the perfect rendition of blacks and greys. Nothing else came within a bulls roar.


just wandering : with all the trade shows SED has been seen at how come no one's been caught trying to steal one. Sheesh if I was in tokyo next month i'd be balaclava at the ready


----------



## RWetmore

I wanted to let everyone know that I have decided to get my set ISF calibrated by Chad Billheimer; he's coming this Monday. My main reason for the calibration is for the magnet work (convergence and geometry) he includes with a full ISF calibration at no extra charge. I first contacted him to ask if he would be willing to come just to do the magnet work. He could, but would have to charge me an hourly fee, which if it took long enough could end up being near the cost of a full calibration. After much thinking, I decided what the hell. His price is very reasonable, and he consistently gets rave reviews for his dedication to perfection not just with the magnet work but everything else too.


Chad also provides before and after grayscale and R,G,B linearity graphs, which I will post a copy of here when he's done. Many people here have wanted to know how well a "do it yourself with the information in this thread" calibration is compared to a professional ISF. As many of you know, I have spent countless hours tweaking mine with the information here...always looking to improve it just that little bit more. I consider myself to be extremely anal and OCD about the adjustments I have made, so I'll be curious how close or off it is from the standards and/or how much better it looks when it is done.


I will report in full detail.


----------



## RWetmore

BTW,


I finally discovered why I was getting a slightly greenish tint to the color when watching cable, but not when I was watching through my DVD player (both hooked up via HDMI). When I turn on the cable box, an all grey screen appears until I select a channel. The grey is about a 30 IRE. I decided to check the color offset adjustments with the cable box's grey screen, and sure enough when I moved the color slider from zero to maximum the grey turned greenish. However, when using the 30 IRE screen in Avia through my DVD player, it stayed neutral grey when moving the color slider from zero to maximum.


Obviously there is a significant color output difference of some sort between the cable box and the DVD player. Is there any way to remedy or improve the consistency between the two? Since I have them routed through the same input, it seems like adjusting either the box or the DVD player would be the only way....


Any ideas? Anyone else have this problem?


----------



## todd95008

Quote:

Originally Posted by *RWetmore*
I wanted to let everyone know that I have decided to get my set ISF calibrated by Chad Billheimer; he's coming this Monday.


I consider myself to be extremely anal and OCD about the adjustments I have made, so I'll be curious how close or off it is from the standards and/or how much better it looks when it is done.


I will report in full detail.
Awesome, please do post the difference in settings (before/after) !!

I'm particularly interested in the DRV/CUT settings Vs your previous posts.

I myself have been playing with the cuts/drvs to get a smoother gamma response and so far I'm finding that I can get the gamma response smoother (2.8 to 2.14 from the 10% to 90% Vs 2.9 to 2.1) when GDRV & GCUT are the same number (30 in this case). I have attached my early results (greyscale needs a bit of touch up) and my picture looks more even in terms of color saturation and transparency.


You may find the the cut/drv settings that you said gave a better black were just pulling the gamma curve down at the low end (higher gamma) ??


Todd

 

sony2bCalMAN v2.02.pdf 58.53515625k . file


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> You may find the the cut/drv settings that you said gave a better black were just pulling the gamma curve down at the low end (higher gamma) ??



Higher gamma would have less shadow detail though, right? According to AVIA, my gamma is about a 2.5 with the all the gamma adjustments at zero (highest gamma). I tried lowering the gamma to about 2.2, and didn't like the results. The picture had better shadow detail, but was flatter and less 3 dimensional. Not good, IMO.


I think keeping the _DRV and _CUT settings the same for each color helps with greyscale linearity. At least it does to my eyes. In addition, using the highest possible _DRV and _CUT settings help achieve better shadow detail. I'm now totally convinced that the _CUT adjustments are not significantly tied to SBRT at all (at least in 1080i). Whether I have all three _CUT settings at zero or 63, it has very little effect on the black level test pattern. This seems significant to me.


----------



## RWetmore

BTW, I have since gotten a new set (34XBR960), so my previously posted _DRV and _CUT settings no longer apply.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> You may find the the cut/drv settings that you said gave a better black were just pulling the gamma curve down at the low end (higher gamma) ??



I see what you are saying. Possibly, but I think the deeper blacks are simply a result of being able to set SBRT lower. Prior to raising all the _CUT and _DRV adjustments to their highest, I always had SBRT a few ticks above where the test pattern indicated because I needed it in order to get decent shadow detail. Now I can set it precisely according to the test pattern and get much better shadow detail than with the previously higher SBRT setting.


----------



## todd95008




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Higher gamma would have less shadow detail though, right? According to AVIA, my gamma is about a 2.5 with the all the gamma adjustments at zero (highest gamma). I tried lowering the gamma to about 2.2, and didn't like the results. The picture had better shadow detail, but was flatter and less 3 dimensional. Not good, IMO.




Avia is pretty much worthless to determine your real gamma.

For that you need something to measure the luminance light output in steps from 0 to 100% (see my gama tracking on sheet 3 of my results pdf).

All the Sony CRT's I have looked at have some sort of S-shaped gamma curve that the gamma is higher at the low end and low at the high end. The trick is to get this as even as possible (gamma 2.22 from 10% to 90%).




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think keeping the _DRV and _CUT settings the same for each color helps with greyscale linearity. At least it does to my eyes. In addition, using the highest possible _DRV and _CUT settings help achieve better shadow detail. I'm now totally convinced that the _CUT adjustments are not tied to SBRT at all (at least in 1080i). Whether I have all three _CUT settings at zero or 63, it has no effect on the black level test pattern; the correct setting for SBRT does not change. This is significant.



It is impossible to keep red & green drvs & cuts at the same point (and have an accurate greyscale) but since green is about 70% of the light output I do believe that should this should be the same setting. For my set, I had to limit green to 30 because I ran out of headroom with rcut @ 63. I might bring green both sown to 29 when I get a chance to fine tune the greyscale ??


I don't know what's up with your 1080i test pattern. Perhaps this bypasses the other circuitry (like menus do) and is just intended for geometry tweaking ??

My HS set does not have these so I can't say.


What I found and confirmed with my colorimeter is this:

1. Raising cuts will pull the back level floor up (obviously). This will need to be offset with SBRT (or other brightness adj).

2. lowering drv's will also raise the black level but lower light output at the top end light output. This effectively tilts the gamma curve up at low end and down at the high end. You need to raise contrast back up to the same 100% level (max point w/o blooming)

3. Keeping green centered gives the best (not perfect) linearity of luminance Vs input level. Again green is by far the most sensitive so this makes sense !!


It will be interesting to see what Chad the HDTV guy ends up doing ??

If you are like me, you be asking a lot of questions...


Todd


----------



## todd95008




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I see what you are saying. Possibly, but I think the deeper blacks are simply a result of being able to set SBRT lower. Prior to raising all the _CUT and _DRV adjustments to their highest, I always had SBRT a few ticks above where the test pattern indicated because I needed it in order to get decent shadow detail. Now I can set it precisely according to the test pattern and get much better shadow detail than with the previously higher SBRT setting.



If you are talking about internal test patterns I would NOT use them to set black level (SBRT) !!!!

Every input needs to adjusted for the component connected (except perhaps the RF input which you can have ISF guy do ??)


For test patterns, I use both DVE 20% w/gray bars and Getgray brightness setting screens. You want the black level to reveal at least 2% bars clearly without raising the black floor so it's a dark grey.

I set mine so at the brightest setting I just start to see the -4% bars.

This gives a black level that is below .04Ft Lamberts and an ON/Off contrast of anywhere from 5000 (composite video) to 15,000 (V5/6).


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It is impossible to keep red & green drvs & cuts at the same point (and have an accurate greyscale)



Right. What I meant to say was that if you have BDRV at 20, then BCUT should also be at 20...if GDRV is 30, then GCUT should be 30, etc.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> but since green is about 70% of the light output I do believe that should this should be the same setting. For my set, I had to limit green to 30 because I ran out of headroom with rcut @ 63. I might bring green both sown to 29 when I get a chance to fine tune the greyscale ??



Yeah, this is what I did. I proceeded like each color only had 63 possible values, and red cannot be adjusted (RDRV and RCUT stay at 63 each).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't know what's up with your 1080i test pattern. Perhaps this bypasses the other circuitry (like menus do) and is just intended for geometry tweaking ??
> 
> My HS set does not have these so I can't say.



Anytime I refer to test patterns, I mean the ones from AVIA via my DVD player (output 1080i). I have never used the set's internal test patterns.



> Quote:
> What I found and confirmed with my colorimeter is this:
> 
> 1. Raising cuts will pull the back level floor up (obviously). This will need to be offset with SBRT (or other brightness adj).



This is precisely what is NOT happening with my sets (I have had 2 now, so it can't be unique to my first one) to any significant degree.



> Quote:
> It will be interesting to see what Chad the HDTV guy ends up doing ??
> 
> If you are like me, you be asking a lot of questions...



Most definately. I will write down all my settings prior to his arrival, and I plan to write down every parameter he adjusts as well as the final value of each.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you are talking about internal test patterns I would NOT use them to set black level (SBRT) !!!!
> 
> Every input needs to adjusted for the component connected (except perhaps the RF input which you can have ISF guy do ??)
> 
> 
> For test patterns, I use both DVE 20% w/gray bars and Getgray brightness setting screens. You want the black level to reveal at least 2% bars clearly without raising the black floor so it's a dark grey.
> 
> I set mine so at the brightest setting I just start to see the -4% bars.
> 
> This gives a black level that is below .04Ft Lamberts and an ON/Off contrast of anywhere from 5000 (composite video) to 15,000 (V5/6).



I'm using AVIA's moving black bars only screen to set SBRT/Brightness. What do you mean by a "grey floor." If I raise SBRT up above the point where I can just barely see the moving bar on the right (the correct black level setting), the all black screen begins to become dark grey instead of black, and the moving bars (both right and left) become plainly visible. Is this what you mean?


----------



## RWetmore

I stand corrected; there is some relationship between the _CUT values and SBRT. I just ran the black bars only pattern in pitch black room. If I raised all the _CUT values from my settings up to 63, I had to lower brightness/SBRT 3 ticks to get the correct setting. If I brought down all the _CUT values from my settings to zero, I had to raise brightness/SBRT up 5 ticks to get the correct setting. This doesn't seem like a very significant or near linear relationship to me. From one extreme to the other only required an increase or decrease of 8 in SBRT to compensate.


Are you getting an 8 tick SBRT relationship between all 63 _CUT values vs. all 0 _CUT values?


Once again, I ran the test in 1080i, not 480p. Maybe I should try running it in 480p and see if the results are the same.


----------



## todd95008




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I stand corrected; there is some relationship between the _CUT values and SBRT. I just ran the black bars only pattern in pitch black room.
> 
> 
> Once again, I ran the test in 1080i, not 480p. Maybe I should try running it in 480p and see if the results are the same.



I tried the same thing with 1080i input from my Sony HD receiver/recorder to V6 and saw a difference just raising and lowering gcut 3-4 points (that equals about one SBRT point).


Are you using V7 HDMI input ??


Try 480i/p and see what happens...


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *todd95008* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I tried the same thing with 1080i input from my Sony HD receiver/recorder to V6 and saw a difference just raising and lowering gcut 3-4 points (that equals about one SBRT point).
> 
> 
> Are you using V7 HDMI input ??
> 
> 
> Try 480i/p and see what happens...



I am using V7 input. This is weird. Does anyone have an explanation? I will try 480p and report the results.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

I heard on the HD DVD thread that some Sony sets do a conversion of the colorspace over HDMI and that an adjustment in the Service Menu could correct it. No more specifics.

It was posted by a very video savvy individual that posts under the name sspears, Stacy Spears, I believe.

My superficial rooting around came up with an adjustment for YCbCr (JP/Japanese), YCbCr (US), and RGB. I'm not sure if I was able to change the sum as I believe it was one of the options controlled by the (?) m016 macros. I have been interested in finding a way into this control macro to make some adjustments myself. If you are aware of how to access this, please let me know.


Regards,


Bryan


----------



## Strider77

Hi I got this set a few months back and I'm happy with it (KD-30XS955). I have some over/underscan issues with the tv that I adjusted with the v/h siz and h/v pos options and I'm familiar with that and all.


Here is my problem, when i adjust the position and get centered it makes it so that when I switch my screen mode to normal (reverse letterbox in other words 4:3) the picture is not centered it to far to the left. Is there a way to adjust the display positioning for the normal 4:3 mode independently from the rest?


----------



## Ev01vEd

I have a KV-30HS420 and am trying to adjust the overscan below the 5 percent it's at now. However, when I start to go below 5, the image on the bottom starts to get distorted...


|||||||||||

////////////


Is there anyway to straighten out the bottom of the screen?


Thanks.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ev01vEd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a KV-30HS420 and am trying to adjust the overscan below the 5 percent it's at now. However, when I start to go below 5, the image on the bottom starts to get distorted...
> 
> 
> |||||||||||
> 
> ////////////
> 
> 
> Is there anyway to straighten out the bottom of the screen?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Yeah, you can use the MID-3 PSTP setting to fix that problem.


----------



## Ev01vEd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yeah, you can use the MID-3 PSTP setting to fix that problem.



Worked great... not sure why I could not find this before. I'm now just under 2.5 percent.


Thanks again.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ev01vEd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Worked great... not sure why I could not find this before. I'm now just under 2.5 percent.
> 
> 
> Thanks again.



No problem, anytime bro.


----------



## corlay

30HS420 here.


I've been optomizing my geometry,

and have run into an issue that i cannot seem to fix.


from about the 1/4 to 1/3 regions of the screen, top and bottom,

at the edges of the display; the image bows - upwards at the bottom, downwards at the top. The center 1/3 of the display looks good, as does the extreme top and bottom. The problem is only at these 'middle regions'.


here's an exagerated ASCII depiction:

Code:


Code:


----------------------------------------------------------------


     ------------------------------------------------------
  --                                                        --
-                                                              -


----------------------------------------------------------------


-                                                              -
 --                                                         --
    -------------------------------------------------------


----------------------------------------------------------------

The only control that I can see that might address this is: D1 - VPIN.

But this control doesn't seem to work like it's horizontal cousin PIN;

as it doesn't seem to affect the extreme edges of the display, and only bows the center 2/3 upwards/downwards? Looks like it works more like a vertical MPIN, instead of PIN?


So jacking up VPIN to compress the center 2/3 only produces a wave that undulates across the screen. Which seems worse than the original bowing at the edges.


When I first started tweaking geometry, I thought all the controls were contained in D1 (vert), & D2 (horiz); but after some searching here I see that there are more geometry controls in MID1, MID2, & MID3?


Anyone ever compile a listing of what these controls do?


I have downloaded the Sony sheets for geometry adjustments posted here in an earlier thread, but this doc only covers the D1 & D2 settings...


Thanks for any help you can offer.


--

corlay


----------



## Istari1

Ok, so I am not even sure if this is an issue or not. I was using DVE to calibrate colors and I noticed that in any color spectrum (the 6-8 solid colored blocks) that there is a dark line between the green and magenta blocks on every screen. Anytime those two colors are next to each other this line is there, dont see it between any other color blocks. Is this normal?


I've made some great progress with my black levels, grey scale and color temp. Also fixed alot of minor geometry issues (still not perfect, but close enough). I do still have a convergence issue at the VERY extreme lower right and left corners, but I dont see any way to fix it so I am going to be satisfied (its really unnoticebale unless I am displaying the dot pattern)


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yeah, you can use the MID-3 PSTP setting to fix that problem.



I think you mean VSTP, am I right? If so, please edit your original, and I'll delete this message. (Your answer is great advice, which will eventually be indexed, so we want to get it right.)


----------



## atye

I'm sure this answer is in the thread somewhere, but I really don't have time to find it.


Anyway, I just got a KD-34XBR970 the other day. Love it!

I've done a few geometry adjustments that have fixed a few things, but I can't

figure this one out. Looks like this:



__________________________________/

__________________________________/

__________________________________/

__________________________________/

__________________________________/

__________________________________/

__________________________________/

__________________________________/

__________________________________/


It's nowhere near that severe, but you get the idea.

Thanks in advance! Great info here.


----------



## RWetmore

Chad calibrated my 960 yesterday, and did a very thorough job. The magnet work was well done and has improved my geometry and convergence quite a bit, so I'm very pleased about that. I found out from Chad that using AVIA for greyscale doesn't give accurate results. Regardless, my greyscale was overly warm (reddish)...I think in part because I found red to be easier on the eyes.


This is no fault of Chad's (he did as good a job as one could ask for), but I'm now in complete agreement with KenTech that perfect color temperature is not very critical at all. I can appreciate the tighter linearity of the greyscale that Chad achieved, but the improvement to my eyes is generally slight, almost to the point where I had to conciously look for it to notice it. Fleshtones are little more natural, but once again, I found the difference to fairly subtle.


On the negative side, in order to achieve such a tight linear grey scale, the corresponding cut and drive settings for red and blue were far different from on another. This caused some lack of depth and natural balance between contrast and brightness that is achieved when trying to keep the cut and drive settings the same or close to the same. I also like a very soft image image easy on the eyes...I found the set to be overly bright and the sharpness a little too high for my tastes (I like any and all edge enhancement completely off - I can spot it a mile away).


I think a big part of my problem is everything went in the opposite direction it usually goes in regards to before and after a calibration. Most people have bluish whites and an overly bright, overly sharpened screen. With mine, everything was the exact opposite. Go figure.


----------



## RWetmore

Also, Chad was totally professional, easy to talk to, and answered all my questions. I spent most of the time directly watching what he was doing. He worked non stop for over 5 and half hours.


----------



## Oliver Deplace




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think you mean VSTP, am I right? If so, please edit your original, and I'll delete this message. (Your answer is great advice, which will eventually be indexed, so we want to get it right.)



My 34xs has the PSTP setting and it performs as described above. There is no VSTP.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

I concur. There has been a significant change to the MID menus in current models. This has been the source of much dismay in regards to older setting suggestions. They either don't exist or the have changed the "prefix" on some of the codes.

Thank you, Bolo for that yummy little tidbit. You have saved quite a number of us some hair!!


Cheers,


Bryan


----------



## todd95008




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, Chad was totally professional, easy to talk to, and answered all my questions. I spent most of the time directly watching what he was doing. He worked non stop for over 5 and half hours.



Do you have the results that you could post ?

I would be particulary interested in gamma and colorspace results.


Thanks

Todd


----------



## ragingd

Hey RWetmore,


Thanks for the update. Is there any way you can tell us what exactly was changed in the service menu? Thanks for any info.


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think you mean VSTP, am I right? If so, please edit your original, and I'll delete this message. (Your answer is great advice, which will eventually be indexed, so we want to get it right.)



It's PSTP on my set, as well as some others from what I've read in reply to my original posting. I have a KV-30HS420 that was manufactured in November of last year, I think that maybe the newer models have different service menu setups than older one (I could be wrong about that). It's like with the setting of the image that lies atop the raster, on your set (and many others that I have read in this thread) I believe that setting lies within your MID3 settings (or something along those lines) while mine is controled in the MID2 settings.


On another note I am having somewhat the same trouble as one of the above posters with the bowing issue, is there a way to control the indivdual corners without effecting the entire image (from bowing that is)?


----------



## BoloTheRomeo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I concur. There has been a significant change to the MID menus in current models. This has been the source of much dismay in regards to older setting suggestions. They either don't exist or the have changed the "prefix" on some of the codes.
> 
> Thank you, Bolo for that yummy little tidbit. You have saved quite a number of us some hair!!
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> Bryan



You're welcome, just trying to do my part to add atleast a little help to the topic


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Yes, my friend. It's good to give back!!

Congrats, again, on a wonderful find!!


Cheers,


Bryan


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Deplace* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My 34xs has the PSTP setting and it performs as described above. There is no VSTP.



The reason I was questioning it was that the service manual for the 34XS955, etc (DA-4 chassis) lists MID3 #8 = VSTP, and no PSTP in any of the MID listings. What group is it in, and did you find it by just stepping through the codes on your TV? The manuals are famous for misprints and bad translation from Japanese, but usually not that blatant.


ADDENDUM: Ah! I just read Bolo's "I concur" message above. I'll have to step thru my own 36XS955's MID3 group to see if there are discrepancies with the manual. Is this "PSTP" in MID3 #8?


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Ken,


When I get some time, I will provide a listing of my MID menus so that everyone can see the "apples to oranges" people like Bolo and I are facing. If my memory serves me, I believe our MID3 menu selections are severely truncated and some of the subcategories that should be there (by the older Service manual) have had their initials changed slightly and transfered into the MID2 menu!!! ARGGGHHHH!


I'll post the selections and you'll see what I mean.


Regards,


Bryan


----------



## williamtassone

I saw a curious thing today ( and no I'm not eating cake with Hyman Roth)


Was at a friends house for dinner. He has a panasonic widescreen CRT direct view TV.


It had perfect, and I mean perfect, edge horizontal linearity.


I've encouraged him to go away with the wife for the weekend while i prune his vines. Should give the time I need to take the back off his set and see how panasonic laid the magnets.


----------



## Istari1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Istari1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok, so I am not even sure if this is an issue or not. I was using DVE to calibrate colors and I noticed that in any color spectrum (the 6-8 solid colored blocks) that there is a dark line between the green and magenta blocks on every screen. Anytime those two colors are next to each other this line is there, dont see it between any other color blocks. Is this normal?



Anyone on this? Thanks.


----------



## Oliver Deplace




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The reason I was questioning it was that the service manual for the 34XS955, etc (DA-4 chassis) lists MID3 #8 = VSTP, and no PSTP in any of the MID listings. What group is it in, and did you find it by just stepping through the codes on your TV? The manuals are famous for misprints and bad translation from Japanese, but usually not that blatant.
> 
> 
> ADDENDUM: Ah! I just read Bolo's "I concur" message above. I'll have to step thru my own 36XS955's MID3 group to see if there are discrepancies with the manual. Is this "PSTP" in MID3 #8?




It's in MID3, but it's #6.


0 YCPO

1 CCPO

2 PRPB

3 DOSA

4 YCWD

5 MYCD

6 PSTP

7 PSTT

8 VHSC

9 VHSL

10 PLHC

11 PLHL

12 MDTC

13 MFRV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoloTheRomeo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...It's like with the setting of the image that lies atop the raster, on your set (and many others that I have read in this thread) I believe that setting lies within your MID3 settings (or something along those lines) while mine is controled in the MID2 settings.



Same menu on mine, 34xs manuf. Nov '05.

Also, the items in MID2 that control horz. & vert. size & pos. start with DH... not DR.


----------



## Istari1

Hmm. . . I'm confused what are the MID menus for? I thought all the geometry settings were grouped together under some of the 2107 menus.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Istari1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmm. . . I'm confused what are the MID menus for? I thought all the geometry settings were grouped together under some of the 2107 menus.



The MID (Multi-Image Display) chip digitally sets up what is displayed onscreen, forming frames to hold reduced-size views (TwinView), establishing a 4:3 "window" on 16:9 sets, and generally digitally mapping and scaling to the screen. Because some of the ratios in MID1~3 have to be computed exactly (example: vertical pixels in the image vs. scan lines in the raster), adjusting some of the scaling parameters can have disasterous effects on resolution. In particular, none of the vertical-size-related parameters should ever be changed, and I would avoid any horizintal-size parameters, as well. I haven't seen problems with tweaking the positioning parameters, however, but I would resist the urge.


None of the parameters in MID1-3 are marked as final-assembly adjustments but are ID's as "fixed data" (green). On the other hand, most parameters in 2170D1 and 2 are color-coded as "final-assembly" adjustments (yellow).


I would make all geometry adjustments in 2170D if at all possible, and tweak positioning parameters in MID1~3 only as a last resort for small tweaks. Avoid the MID1~3 parameters that imply that they adjust size, height, width, or area (ending in W, R, or S, for example).


If parameters are tentitavely changed in MID1~3, I would check the AVIA Sharpness or Resolution screens before and after to make sure nothing has been compromised. After I tinkered a bit, it's the AVIA Sharpness screen that alerted me that I had screwed up the vertical pixel-mapping badly: horizontal dark lines had turned to mush! (I'm sure one of the sharpness-test screens in DVE would work, too.) Returning the values to the data-chart's numbers fixed everything.


----------



## KenTech

Based on the list posted by Oliver above (thanks!), I'd put money on the following equivalents in the older service manuals' MID3 group: (The latest I have is revision 7/2005.) The abbreviated identification phrases are subject to interpretation, but digital timings seem to be prominent -- pulse widths, clip levels, start and stop points for a phase-locked loop, etc. "clp" may mean "control pulse" or similar, not "clip." "cl" may not mean "control," either.


0 YCPO [7/2005 has only one: 5 VCPO = vdo clp pos.]

1 CCPO [See above. Are Y and C now separate?]

2 PRPB

3 DOSA

4 YCWD [6 VCWD = vdo clp wdt]

5 MYCD [7 VYCD = vdo yc delay]

6 PSTP [8 VSTP = vdo pll (phase-locked loop) stop]

7 PSTT [9 VSTT = vdo pll strt]

8 VHSC [10 VHSC = vdo hsync cyc]

9 VHSL

10 PLHC

11 PLHL

12 MDTC

13 MFRV [11 VFRV = vdo flv rev]


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

My MID3 menu is the same as the one Oliver posted. Along with that, I'll ad my MID1 and MID2 menus for your perusal:

MID1:

0=DHPH

1=DVPH

2=DHAR

3=DVAR

4=DHPW

5=DVPW

6=DYCD

7=DYSD

8=MDHP

9=MDVP

10=MDHS

11=MDVS

12=DGSB

13=DGSR

14=DPSW

15=MDLO

16=BCOL

17=DYSS

MID2:

0=DHHP (HORIZ. POS.)

1=DHHS (HORIZ. SIZE)

2=DHVP (VERT. POS.)

3=DHVS (VERT. SIZE)

4=DHVL (?)


Again my set is a KD-34XS955. Build date: July 2005.


Bryan


----------



## Istari1

Good info as always, thanks Ken. Attached is a simple pic of what my geometry "problem" is. Really its only a problem when watching something with boxes on the sides - its unnoticeable during DVD or HDTV watching. Any suggestions? I tried PIN and PINO but since the bugle is off center they dont seem to do much. The left side is slightly more bowed then the right side also.


----------



## corlay

Does anyone know what the following geometry settings do?


2170D-1:

(10) MHTZ


2170D-2:

(5) PINO

(9) UXCG

(10) LXCG

(11) UXCP

(12) LXCP

(13) XCPP


2170D-3:

(10) AKBT


I've changed the values, a bit, to experiment;

but changes to my display seem imperceptible...


--

corlay


----------



## stuart81

hello to everyone. im new to this, so please pardon me if this has already been discussed.

i own the 960 and i just finished adjusting the overscan on 1080i sources. my problem is that after i reduced the overscan on 1080i the 480i image becomes just a tad small. my question would be; is there anyway to adjust the 480i horizontaland vertical parameters independently of others?


thanks in adance for any help.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stuart81* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> my question would be; is there anyway to adjust the 480i horizontaland vertical parameters independently of others?



Welcome to the forum, Stuart!


If you'll refer to the service-data chart for your TV*, you'll note that there is but one setting for raster width for normal viewing, 2170D-2, #2-HSIZ. But the height can be adjusted with 2170D-1, #13-ASPT, and there are separate settings for the various video-display modes. Bottom line: You're stuck with one adjustment for overall width, but can tweak ASPT (aspect ratio) for the different display modes (vertically compressed and not for 4:3 set owners).


If the 1080 frame is not horizontally centered relative to 480, use 2170D-2, #1-HPOS to adjust. There are two settings, one for 1080 and another for "others."


*Use the Contents listing in post #1 to find it; it's been uploaded.


----------



## KenTech

And here are the 7/2005 manual's lineups to Dr. Spakenstein's listings (thanks!):

MID1:

0=DHPH -\\

1=DVPH ---\\

2=DHAR ---|

3=DVAR ---|

4=DHPW ---|

5=DVPW ---| [0-11 Same as 7/2005 manual]

6=DYCD ---|

7=DYSD ---|

8=MDHP ---|

9=MDVP ---|

10=MDHS--/

11=MDVS /

12=DGSB

13=DGSR

14=DPSW [22 in 7/2005 manual]

15=MDLO [23 " ]

16=BCOL [24 " ]

17=DYSS [25 " ]

MID2:

0=DHHP (HORIZ. POS.) [DRHP - drc hactv pos]

1=DHHS (HORIZ. SIZE) [DRHS - drc hactv siz]

2=DHVP (VERT. POS.) [DRVP - drc vactv pos]

3=DHVS (VERT. SIZE) [DRVS - drc vactv siz]

4=DHVL (?) [None. Stops at 3.]


----------



## Oliver Deplace




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If parameters are tentitavely changed in MID1~3, I would check the AVIA Sharpness or Resolution screens before and after to make sure nothing has been compromised. After I tinkered a bit, it's the AVIA Sharpness screen that alerted me that I had screwed up the vertical pixel-mapping badly: horizontal dark lines had turned to mush! (I'm sure one of the sharpness-test screens in DVE would work, too.) Returning the values to the data-chart's numbers fixed everything.



After reading that, I put up the Avia Sharpness pattern and went to town in MID2.

I ran the DHHP/DHHS/DHVP/DHVS settings up and down through a wide range and saw no resolution change. The image got squished and stretched (or lost synch), but the lines remained sharp.


A side effect of this foolin' around was: If I pulled the image vertically, as if I were trying to run it underscanned, a black screen would display glow spots at the edge that was exposed. There was a definite demarcation, where the screen is pure black and one click of a vertical control setting and the spots are there.


So, I guess that could be a concern when messing with the MID2.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Deplace* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I ran the DHHP/DHHS/DHVP/DHVS settings up and down through a wide range and saw no resolution change. The image got squished and stretched (or lost synch), but the lines remained sharp.



My digital camera is unavailable for about ten days; but when it returns, I'll try to take a photo of the blurring effect I saw.


BTW, it took only a 1-click change from the optimum vertical-size setting to compromise the picture quality. (Greater deviations from optimum didn't screw it up _more_, just _differently_.) At the correct setting (the one on the chart), the vertical sampling ratio is perfect, and the horizontal lines were perfectly sharp. At a value only one higher or lower, the "fuzz" of antialiasing (or fractional-pixel sampling?) appeared above and below horizontal black lines at the center of the screen, making them mushy. So my warning remains -- I know what I saw. But I will try to document it in a week or so and indicate how to reproduce the effect.


On the other hand, seems to me that a change to the positioning parameters in the MID groups wouldn't screw up the sampling -- only slide the image around on the digital "canvas," keeping the same exact pixel-mapping ratio.


----------



## Oliver Deplace

I tried it again and now see what you're saying.

The horizontal lines, which form the cross at the center, get thicker. Interesting thing is, if you continue adjusting, the lines would randomly return to their thin state.

I was looking for mush, but they remained sharp, only thicker.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Deplace* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I tried it again and now see what you're saying.
> 
> The horizontal lines, which form the cross at the center, get thicker. Interesting thing is, if you continue adjusting, the lines would randomly return to their thin state.
> 
> I was looking for mush, but they remained sharp, only thicker.



Yes. I think the "look" may depend on how you have DRC set -- interlaced, progressive, etc. I typically examine the AVIA Sharpness screen in Progressive or CineMotion (same thing for this screen), and the deterioration was remarkable. Like you said, as the displayed picture is recomputed to a different pixel-sampling ratio for each setting, the results change, some better, some worse. The only one I found that was fine from top to bottom was the original setting. Thing is, I didn't _realize_ I was screwing up the picture; I thought I had found another clever way of adjusting the geometry! (Hah! See my signature slogan!) The sneaky nature of this is why I'm making a big deal out of it -- so fellow perfectionists (you know who you are!) don't inadvertently screw themselves up.


These particular MID settings are identified as fixed presets, not "adjustments," and I have left them alone, getting scaling tweaks from other, intended, methods -- such as the 2170D settings identified as true adjustments. But I did use one of the MID position settings to perfectly align the centering of 480i with 1080i (or something similar -- it was a few months ago). There seems to be no downside to that, except I seem to remember that if you go to extremes, the picture may break up or "tear" in strange ways.


----------



## bazooka

Hey All, first post here. I've been reading thru the forums and found a lot of great info. However, I just noticed that if I display an all white screen, the left side of my xs955 is a faint blue-ish white while the right side is very faintly redish white? I've been going thru the settings trying to figure out how to fix it, but came up with nothing.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bazooka* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey All, first post here. I've been reading thru the forums and found a lot of great info. However, I just noticed that if I display an all white screen, the left side of my xs955 is a faint blue-ish white while the right side is very faintly redish white? I've been going thru the settings trying to figure out how to fix it, but came up with nothing.



Do you have any speakers near the tv? They could be unshielded, either that or your tv did'nt degauss itself correctly when turning on.


----------



## bazooka

Yeah actually I do have some speakers next to it. Heh, I'm no geek at stuff like this so I didn't think about that. As for degaussing itself, I turned it off waited a few, and turned it on and it's a little better. But now I notice another problem, when I run a sharpness test pattern, one with verticle black bars, the bars seem to have a very small red outline, moslty on the top-left portion of the screen.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Firstly you have to let the tv warm up a bit like say 20 minutes before everything looks fine.


It's normal to have some slight convergance issues at the corners of the screen, they go away though once the tv warms up.


----------



## bazooka

Yeah it looks good now. I also fooled around with the LANDING and got the colors to be even across the screen.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Glad i could help!


I know those settings sure helped me with my sony 34hs420.


----------



## atye

Did a search, couldn't find the answer.


I'm in serious trouble here. I was changing parameters in the SM, did a

mute/enter to write in my 970, and all of a sudden, I get a grid

pattern like a convergence grid on my Toshiba, accompanied by a very loud

sustained beeping sound. No matter what I do, this won't go back to normal.

When I power off and back on, it shows the previously displayed screen

for a moment, then goes back to this grid/beep screen. It's almost like an

emergency/safe/shutdown type thing.


Does anybody know what I'm talking about? How do I fix this?


Thanks


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *atye* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anybody know what I'm talking about? How do I fix this?



Easy. You have inadvertently invoked one of the internal test patterns. You just have to shut it off.


You didn't say if you have turned off the set, but go back to service mode, and step backwards to group QM, then go to #1-PATN. You want to set this parameter to ZERO, which will turn off the pattern generator and restore your set to normal. WRITE the setting to preserve it.


Trouble is, the pattern generator takes over the set, and many functions on the remote don't work, especially volume! Be sure to turn down the volume _before_ you invoke any of the patterns. They're harmless and of considerable vale for certain adjustments, but it doesn't replace a good calibration DVD, such as DVE or AVIA.


See the article *here* for some details of how it works on the DA-4-based sets.


----------



## atye

Thanks Ken. I'll give it a try!


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Hello all,


I am rapidly approaching the end of my warranty period. I have recently lost the ability to adjust some of the vertical corrections within the service menu and was planning on taking the set in for repair or replacement of one of the boards. I have also notice more recently that I think I'm seeing some burn-in from my family's viewing of 4:3 material. I can only describe the burn-in as areas that are a shade darker/dimmer and a slight linearity issue when an image moves past these areas (like a right to left pan or vise-versa.) Does this sound like a form of burn-in or maybe an aperture grill failure? If so, show I look into having the tube replaced since they aren't going to be producing these tubes anymore?

It seems like it would be reasonable timing to have something like this done while the parts costs are being taken by Sony.


Any thoughts?


Bryan


----------



## Ectospheno




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Welcome to the Forum! Yes, they should. Do them in the order blue-red-green. Use the blue to adjust Color and Hue, too before proceeding.I would toss the plastic filter card and, for sure, and use the RGBS controls instead: 7=normal, 4=red, 2=green, 1=blue, and (watch out!) 0=black screen. If you hit 0 accidentally, just go back up to another color. Most folks have compromised on settings near 14-14-6-4. Even when I vacillate among different settings for the first two parameters, the -6-4 part seems solid.
> 
> 
> The HS420 uses different phosphors from the newer fine-pitch tubes, but I'll bet that doesn't affect the above color settings.



Hi. I recently purchased the KD-34XBR970. I am very pleased with the purchase. The only thing that bothers me is that after going through AVIA to change the video settings the red and green guns didn't look like they are set high enough. I'm in Pro mode, neutral color model, and set everything else using the AVIA disc. At the color check portion blue is at 0, green is down at -15% and red is 10% to 15% below when set to monitor and a similar level above when set to default.


I've read through what I think are relevant portions of this thread, including the quoted portion above. I have two questions:


1. Am I correct in thinking RGBS is what I need to modify?


2. Having never been in the service mode before, the 7=normal, 4=red, etc portion of the comment above is somewhat confusing. Would someone be kind enough to explain that.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Ecto,


Actually, RGBS is an adjustment parameter in the Service menu. It will turn on/off any combination of the color guns.

The adjustments you will use to correct the color decoder is: 2170P-4 #7RYR/#8RYB/#9GYR/#10GYB. Most people have found that you can get quite close using the settings 14-14-6-4 for the above parameters in the 2170P-4 menu.

What KenTech was suggesting was to use the settings in the RGBS menu in place of of the supplied color filters. They will provide a pure color source from which to check your decoder settings via the Avia disc.

I more than likely have made this more confusing with my explanation.

I humbly enlist others in this thread to make this more succinct.


Regards,


Bryan


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Ecto,


Actually, RGBS is an adjustment parameter in the Service menu. It will turn on/off any combination of the color guns.

The adjustments you will use to correct the color decoder is: 2170P-4 #7RYR/#8RYB/#9GYR/#10GYB. Most people have found that you can get quite close using the settings 14-14-6-4 for the above parameters in the 2170P-4 menu.

What KenTech was suggesting was to use the settings in the RGBS menu in place of of the supplied color filters. They will provide a pure color source from which to check your decoder settings via the Avia disc. 7=All colors, 4=Red, 2=Green, 1=Blue. 5,6 and 3 are combinations of 2 colors. So when it would ask you to view through a red filter, you would set RGBS to 4.

I more than likely have made this more confusing with my explanation.

I humbly enlist others in this thread to make this more succinct.


Regards,


Bryan


----------



## gab2409

this thread is a wealth of information, albeit over my head. from what I've gathered, it looks like I would see a huge improvement by changing:


red push: RYR/RYB/GYR/GYB settings: 14-15-6-4


is this correct? I'm a little confused at this point, but this seems to be the bulk of the change.


----------



## gab2409

ok, I calibrated it using 14-15-6-4, set the tv to pro, and turned off vm. the colors seem really accurate, but the picture looks pretty dark(on dvd and cable). is this just because I'm not used to a digital set?


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Only two suggestions. Try (if you haven't already) raising the BRIGHTNESS a little, but no so the blacks turn grey/foggy. Maybe a boost to CONTRAST, but check (say with the THX Optimizer) that your peak whites are not "blooming", meaning the scanning beam is smearing/growing beyond it's normal bounds.

Otherwise, you could adjust the 2170P-4 #18 GAMM setting to either 1 or 2, but know that by doing this you are raising the brightness in the midtones and this can only serve to take away "depth" from the picture by reducing contrast.


Hope this helps,


Bryan


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gab2409* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ok, I calibrated it using 14-15-6-4, set the tv to pro, and turned off vm. the colors seem really accurate, but the picture looks pretty dark(on dvd and cable). is this just because I'm not used to a digital set?



Did I miss your model? XBR960? Something else?


You should also set SHARPNESS=MIN on all non-SD inputs, in addition to VM=OFF and MODE=PRO. You might need some sharpness help on SD inputs.


I have my "color correction" values set at 13-15-5-4, which were initially recommended prior to being revised to 14-15-6-4 as you've set. I'm happy with the original set of values. These, along with my setting of color temp = COOL, and color axis = DEFAULT, plus picture=35, brightness=32, color=31 and hue=0, produces absolutely perfect overall picture to my eyes on my XBR960 (perhaps because of "cool" color which I much prefer).


But don't expect the picture to look good to you (i.e. not dark) in "broad daylight" in a room with outside light from the sides or rear of the room. The picture is supposed to be optimally viewed in a dark room. And then it won't look dark... it will look gorgeous. You can't even properly and fairly adjust it except in a dark room, like you are going to watch it.


Furthermore, you will probably find that DVD and non-HD sources might require a separate setup from true 720p/1080i sources (e.g. HD cable channels). In my setup, I've got my DVD player going to INPUT5 via component video, my cable DVR going to INPUT6 via component video (for HD channel viewing only), and my "standard" SD source going to INPUT1 (DirecTV) via S-video and INPUT3 (DVR via S-video for non-HD channels which I very rarely watch on this input). That gives me the freedom to have different user menu settings for each type of input.


For example, my INPUT5 settings (for DVD) have picture=34, brightness=36, color=36, and hue=G1 (probably because of my DVD player's settings), along with DRC=Cinemotion.


And INPUT1 has picture=39, bright=33, color=34, hue=0, sharp=21, and DRC=Progressive. INPUT3 has picture=40, brightness=34, color=34, hue=0, sharpness=19, and DRC=Progressive.


But to each his own settings. Whatever looks good to you.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Quote DSperber:


"But don't expect the picture to look good to you (i.e. not dark) in "broad daylight" in a room with outside light from the sides or rear of the room. The picture is supposed to be optimally viewed in a dark room. And then it won't look dark... it will look gorgeous. You can't even properly and fairly adjust it except in a dark room, like you are going to watch it."


I knew I forgot to mention something...









Good advice to all!


Cheers,


Bryan


----------



## ioannisds

Hi. I'm kinda new to the forum, and have gleaned quite a bit of information from this thread. I own a 34HS420, and I would like some help with the geometry. Please, please, please forgive me if this has already been asked 100 times already, but is there a step-by-step geometry/overscan procedure somewhere in this thread? I've done some adjustment in the CXA2170D-1 and 2 service menus, and then I start looking over this thread and feel like I might need to go back and tweak some more. I have not touched the MID1-3 menus, as I am still a bit unclear on what they do. And then I read about adjusting raster, and my head about exploded. Tell me if I understand the procedure correctly:


1)Adjust raster.


2)Adjust geometry using CXA2170D-1 and 2.


3)Tweak MID1-3? Based on input? Picture size?


Again, I'm sorry if this kind of thing has been asked before. I've been looking over this thread for a couple of hours, and my brain hurts. I can find bits and pieces of what I'm asking throughout, but no "do this, then do this, then do this, and you're done". Thanks for taking the time to read my post, and feel free to rip me a new one if I deserve it.


----------



## Mathesar

Ugh.. Tonight I was touching up the geometry in the service menu on my 34XBR960N (using a certain screen in a videogame as a test image) After I was done I decided to check how a news ticker looked so I switched over to the Cable input and proceeded to change channels ...not realising I was still in the service menu(!) Im not sure what I pressed but the TV shut off and came back on with the initial setup screen, it erased all my favorites / picture settings / made me auto program all the channels etc., Any idea what button combo would do this? My edited geometry / convergence settings are still in tact at least, I just hope I didn't reset anything else picture related in the service menu(?)


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ioannisds* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> is there a step-by-step geometry/overscan procedure somewhere in this thread?



There is this one 


which is also pointed to by this one 


which was pointed to by this one 


which was pointed to by this one 



Note that my posts deal with the XBR960 and I have no specific firsthand experience with the HS420, but I'm expecting the service menu to be at least very similar if not almost identical. If I'm wrong, hopefully some HS420 owner will correct the following.


If the service menus are similar then if you follow the recipe described by my series of posts you will get into the 2170D-1 service menu group to adjust VPOS and VSIZ (vertical position and vertical size of the background raster), the 2170D-2 group to adjust HPOS and HSIZ (horizontal position and horizontal size of the "background raster"), and the MID3 group to adjust VDHP, VDHS, VDVE, and VDVS (horizontal position, horizontal size, vertical position, and vertical size, respectively) of the "foreground image". MID3 is then used to manipulate the "foreground image" on top of the "background raster" for the 720p/1080i inputs... at least on the XBR960.


If MID3 isn't present, or doesn't work, you might look at MID1. This group (which I believe has DDHP, DDHS, DDVE and DDVS instead) was present on some lower-end or older XBR, XS and HS models so MID1 might be what they used on the HS420.


Anyway, if you have a proper test pattern input (either from DVE, Avia, or something like the OVERSCAN.ZIP image attached to my third post referenced above) you should be fully able to adjust your set's overscan without any outside help.


----------



## Oliver Deplace




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ugh.. Tonight I was touching up the geometry in the service menu on my 34XBR960N (using a certain screen in a videogame as a test image) After I was done I decided to check how a news ticker looked so I switched over to the Cable input and proceeded to change channels ...not realising I was still in the service menu(!) Im not sure what I pressed but the TV shut off and came back on with the initial setup screen, it erased all my favorites / picture settings / made me auto program all the channels etc., Any idea what button combo would do this? My edited geometry / convergence settings are still in tact at least, I just hope I didn't reset anything else picture related in the service menu(?)



Sounds like the "8-enter" user settings reset. I tried it once and it cleared the channel memory, so I had to re-scan and that took a ½hr.


----------



## Mathesar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Deplace* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sounds like the "8-enter" user settings reset. I tried it once and it cleared the channel memory, so I had to re-scan and that took a ½hr.



Yea thats actually what it was doing when I posted the first message lol , now that its done I think everything is Ok (picture looks fine) , I just had to re-do my picture settings per video input etc. I guess it could of been worse!


I was able to improve a pretty noticable geometry error in the lower right corner (been bugging me since I bought the TV in Feb) so im happy


----------



## ioannisds




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is this one
> 
> 
> which is also pointed to by this one
> 
> 
> which was pointed to by this one
> 
> 
> which was pointed to by this one
> 
> 
> 
> Note that my posts deal with the XBR960 and I have no specific firsthand experience with the HS420, but I'm expecting the service menu to be at least very similar if not almost identical. If I'm wrong, hopefully some HS420 owner will correct the following.
> 
> 
> If the service menus are similar then if you follow the recipe described by my series of posts you will get into the 2170D-1 service menu group to adjust VPOS and VSIZ (vertical position and vertical size of the background raster), the 2170D-2 group to adjust HPOS and HSIZ (horizontal position and horizontal size of the "background raster"), and the MID3 group to adjust VDHP, VDHS, VDVE, and VDVS (horizontal position, horizontal size, vertical position, and vertical size, respectively) of the "foreground image". MID3 is then used to manipulate the "foreground image" on top of the "background raster" for the 720p/1080i inputs... at least on the XBR960.
> 
> 
> If MID3 isn't present, or doesn't work, you might look at MID1. This group (which I believe has DDHP, DDHS, DDVE and DDVS instead) was present on some lower-end or older XBR, XS and HS models so MID1 might be what they used on the HS420.
> 
> 
> Anyway, if you have a proper test pattern input (either from DVE, Avia, or something like the OVERSCAN.ZIP image attached to my third post referenced above) you should be fully able to adjust your set's overscan without any outside help.



Thanks so much for pointing me in the right direction. This looks like exactly what I was looking for. Can you maybe explain to me how adjusting the foreground image over the background raster is different/necessary? I was able to get my geometry and overscan looking pretty good without ever diving into the MID3 menu. I just adjusted HPOS, HSIZ, VPOS, and VSIZ until I got my crosshatch well centered and sized, and then did some touch-ups to correct a little vertical bowing and the like. Reading your posts, it would appear that I did not go about this in the right way. Thanks again for your help.


----------



## Mindman

KenTech (or anyone else who can help),


Recently SurfingMatt27 helped me narrow down an issue with bleeding colors on my Sony KV-30HS420. Basically, in some parts of the screen, I would see red "outlines" off to the left of certain images. I adjusted the main focus item and fixed some of the problem. Now all that's affected are the corners. The left corner has a bad red bleed, the right has a green bleed. Adjusting the other focus items seem to alleviate the problem in one part of the screen while messing up the another part.


The other suggestion is a convergence issue. I have tinkered with the D-CONV settings and those don't seem to help at all. So, I have two questions. Is there anything else I can do in the service menu to fix this? And, if not, what do I need to tell a service tech to get the problem fixed correctly? Do magnets need to be adjusted?


Thanks a million!!


----------



## Istari1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mindman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> KenTech (or anyone else who can help),
> 
> 
> Recently SurfingMatt27 helped me narrow down an issue with bleeding colors on my Sony KV-30HS420. Basically, in some parts of the screen, I would see red "outlines" off to the left of certain images. I adjusted the main focus item and fixed some of the problem. Now all that's affected are the corners. The left corner has a bad red bleed, the right has a green bleed. Adjusting the other focus items seem to alleviate the problem in one part of the screen while messing up the another part.
> 
> 
> The other suggestion is a convergence issue. I have tinkered with the D-CONV settings and those don't seem to help at all. So, I have two questions. Is there anything else I can do in the service menu to fix this? And, if not, what do I need to tell a service tech to get the problem fixed correctly? Do magnets need to be adjusted?
> 
> 
> Thanks a million!!



Look for the posts on adjusting LANDING I bet this is your issue.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mindman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> KenTech (or anyone else who can help),
> 
> 
> Recently SurfingMatt27 helped me narrow down an issue with bleeding colors on my Sony KV-30HS420. Basically, in some parts of the screen, I would see red "outlines" off to the left of certain images. I adjusted the main focus item and fixed some of the problem. Now all that's affected are the corners. The left corner has a bad red bleed, the right has a green bleed. Adjusting the other focus items seem to alleviate the problem in one part of the screen while messing up the another part.
> 
> 
> The other suggestion is a convergence issue. I have tinkered with the D-CONV settings and those don't seem to help at all. So, I have two questions. Is there anything else I can do in the service menu to fix this? And, if not, what do I need to tell a service tech to get the problem fixed correctly? Do magnets need to be adjusted?
> 
> 
> Thanks a million!!



Can you supply us with a picture of the screen?


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Hello folks,


I am needing a process/test to verify if the image on my screen is being scaled correctly by the set and/or DVD player. The reason I ask is, KenTech has stated many times that if you deviate from the MID menu settings regarding vert. and horiz. size that the resultant image will be compromised. Unfortunately, the Service Menu settings for the MID menus are of diminished use since other's and my own set (34xs955) have quite differing menu options in the MID categories and often the values that are stated in the SM won't work because, as one poster put it, "the picture goes to garbage". To me, it looks like it either loses horz. sync or the picture immediately is reduced to a 1" wide vertical band.


I'm just looking for a way to tell if I'm within the parameters that alow the set to scale the image correctly. KenTech had mentioned some patterns, but I have had a hard time locating that post.


I have been trying to use AVIA to optimize my HDMI input for my HD DVD player. Which leads me to another question, how valuable is this going to be if the DVD player is doing upscaling/deinterlacing? The only resolution options are: 480p, 720p and 1080i.


For my review, can someone explain which MID settings are global or resolution/input dependent? MID1 #1-4, 8-11 and MID2 #1-4. Sorry, some of us don't have any relevant MID3 categories. With this help, I think I can compile an alternate list of settings that could be of use for us rogue 955/420/960 owners.


Thanks in advance,


Bryan


----------



## gab2409




> Quote:
> Furthermore, you will probably find that DVD and non-HD sources might require a separate setup from true 720p/1080i sources (e.g. HD cable channels). In my setup, I've got my DVD player going to INPUT5 via component video, my cable DVR going to INPUT6 via component video (for HD channel viewing only), and my "standard" SD source going to INPUT1 (DirecTV) via S-video and INPUT3 (DVR via S-video for non-HD channels which I very rarely watch on this input). That gives me the freedom to have different user menu settings for each type of input.



I have the 30hs420 btw.


2 things:

1. why does the picture look vastly different on the different picture modes(vivid, etc), when they are set exactly the same as pro? I did the SM tweaks...are they video mode specific? do they just change for the mode I am on?


2. why do you have your dvd player connected to a non-hd input? for a non-hd dvd player, will it matter either way? I have mine connected to 6(an hd input).


3. lastly, my picture still seems too dark. I've played with the brightness and contrast. when I turn either up, it starts to look washed out. here are my settings:


In 2103-1 (change these to)

YLEV 19

CLEV 25

SCON 8

SCOL 6

SHUE 11

YDLY 0

SHAP 4

SHFO 3

PREO 1

BPFO 3

BPFQ 2

BPSW 1

TRAP 0

LPF 1

AFCG 0

CDMD 3

SSMD 2

HMSK 1

HALI 0

PPHA 7

CBO1 26

CRO1 43

CBO2 21

CRO2 39

ATPD 0

DCTR 0


In 2170P-1:

YOSW 0

TCOF 0

YOF 7

CBOF 37

CROF 37

SBRT 29

RDRV 30

GDRV 28

BDRV 23

RCUT 43

GCUT 24

BCUT 22

WBSW 0

SBOF 7

RDOF 30

GDOF 31

BDOF 32

RCOF 30

GCOF 31

BCOF 32

DCOL 0


2170P-2


PICO 1

RGBS 7

BLKB 3

RGBL 2

YLMT 3

AGNG 0

AKBO 0

CLPP 3

CLPG 0

CLPS 0

PPAD 3

SYNP 0

HVBT 0


2170P-3


SYSM 3 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)

YMLV 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)

VMCR 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)

VMLM 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)

VMFO 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)

VMDL 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)

SHOF 1 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)

SHFO 1

PROV 3

F1LV 0

LTLV 0

LTMD 1

CTLV 0

UBOF 4 (For HDTV, Varies for each input so adjust accordingly)

UCOF 0

UHOF 0

MIDE 20

VM 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)

VMH 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)

VMM 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)

VML 2 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)

VGAP 5

VGAS 5

VGAB 5

VGAC 5

VGAV 5


2170P-4:


YCON 1

**** 0

SCOL 36

SHUE 30

SPIO 7

SCLO 7

SHUO 7

UPIC 31

UBRT 31

UCOL 31

UHUE 31

USHP 31

UTMP 1

RYR 14

RYB 14

GYR 6

GYB 4

GAMM 0

GAMS 0

GAMR 0

GAMG 0

GAMB 0

BLK 0

DCTR 0

APED 0

DSBO 7

IDSW 0

ABLM 0

ABLT 0

SPOF 0

DPSQ 1

LRGB 3


any thoughts?


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> MID3 is then used to manipulate the "foreground image" on top of the "background raster" for the 720p/1080i inputs... at least on the XBR960.



IS there a concensus amongst this thread's participants?


Does altering MID1-3 settings degrage overall picture focus/sharpness?

Only *cetain* MID settings?


KenTech reported *horizontal* degradation, but not vertical.

Does this mean that Horizontal MID controls are ok to alter as needed?


--


Also...


I was planning to maybe explore using the 'Zoom' picture mode for displaying 2.35:1 source content on my 30HS420 16:9 screen. This would involve some heavy altering of MID settings for that mode, I suspect. But since I never use 'Zoom' to view 4:3 source content (I either use 'Normal" or 'Wide Zoom' for that...) I thought it might be nice to cater 'Zoom' to be used specifically for 2.35:1.


Has anyone else tried this?


--

corlay


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Quote corlay:

Also...


I was planning to maybe explore using the 'Zoom' picture mode for displaying 2.35:1 source content on my 30HS420 16:9 screen. This would involve some heavy altering of MID settings for that mode, I suspect. But since I never use 'Zoom' to view 4:3 source content (I either use 'Normal" or 'Wide Zoom' for that...) I thought it might be nice to cater 'Zoom' to be used specifically for 2.35:1.


Has anyone else tried this?



Uh oh....you wouldn't happen to be one of those "don't like black bars" type, would you?










Kidding aside, I would imagine that that ammount of stretching of the image would seriously affect the picture quality (softening quite a bit)!


Regards,


Bryan


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

gab2409,


The first thing I would try would be to raise the value in GAMM to 1, maybe 2. This will tend to "flatten" the image by brightening the midtone values. If you find you like something between 0 and 1, you can adjust the parameters of GAMR, GAMG and GAMB to equal levels. For example, KenTech suggested that if you could use GAMM @0 then set GAMR, GAMG,GAMB to 3,3,3.


You could start there and season to taste.










Enjoy,


Bryan


----------



## gab2409

interesting. thanks a lot, I'll let you know how it works


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

I think you'll like the effect if you don't lay it on too thick.

Please, let me know.


Cheers,


Bryan


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Kidding aside, I would imagine that that ammount of stretching of the image would seriously affect the picture quality (softening quite a bit)!



no, not that...


But just to *optimize* the 'Zoom" picture mode for 2.35:1.


1. approach 0% overscan @ the top & bottom

2. and ~10% overscan @ the sides


this would increase the image porportionately, at the expense of some side image content.


right now, *none* of the picture modes accomodate 2.35:1 very well, IMO.


----------



## Oliver Deplace




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IS there a concensus amongst this thread's participants?
> 
> 
> Does altering MID1-3 settings degrage overall picture focus/sharpness?
> 
> Only *cetain* MID settings?
> 
> 
> KenTech reported *horizontal* degradation, but not vertical.
> 
> Does this mean that Horizontal MID controls are ok to alter as needed?
> 
> 
> --
> 
> 
> Also...
> 
> 
> I was planning to maybe explore using the 'Zoom' picture mode for displaying 2.35:1 source content on my 30HS420 16:9 screen. This would involve some heavy altering of MID settings for that mode, I suspect. But since I never use 'Zoom' to view 4:3 source content (I either use 'Normal" or 'Wide Zoom' for that...) I thought it might be nice to cater 'Zoom' to be used specifically for 2.35:1.
> 
> 
> Has anyone else tried this?
> 
> 
> --
> 
> corlay



If you alter Zoom you will alter Wide Zoom and, more importantly, Full. So, you'll have to use a different scan rate for your custom mode. You could use 480p for Full and 480i for Zoom (or vice versa). It might be a pain to keep changing the player back and forth between progressive and interlaced. If you can do it remotely, then that's not so bad.


The MID setting that controls vertical size and position can have a deleterious effect. The degradation is subtle, so you might find the trade-off worthwhile. The resulting image will be far from normal anyway.


Normally, you would do your positioning and sizing entirely with 2170D-1 & 2.

Horizontal work might require some MID adjustment and they didn't thicken the lines in test patterns (apart from what one might expect when stretching the image).


Zoom would only require MID horizontal stretching and centering.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does altering MID1-3 settings degrage overall picture focus/sharpness?
> 
> Only *cetain* MID settings?



Absolutely NO MID1-3 settings affect beam focus or real image sharpness. (However, some settings in MID5 affect the video-frequency response, almost like a graphic equalizer for video.) MID1-3 settings appear to affect digital pixel-mapping of the video onto the raster, etc.


> Quote:
> KenTech reported *horizontal* degradation, but not vertical. Does this mean that Horizontal MID controls are ok to alter as needed?



Terminology problem! Getting those "magic" vertical-size ratios wrong causes vertical degradation, smearing _horizintal_ lines. The AVIA Sharpness screen shows it very well. (I can't say if altering the horizintal size affects horizintal sharpness, blurring vertical lines.) The _positioning_ settings don't seem to affect the mapping (sampling) ratios, and so I don't expect, nor do I see, degradation for small tweaks of position. But, knowing the purpose of those digital-sampling ratios established by the size settings, I would not change them and would search for tweaks for picture size/scaling settings in 2170D-1 and -2.


Again, the crossed set of 4 X 4 dark lines passing thru the center of the AVIA Sharpness pattern is really good for establishing the existence of any problems. With the mode set to Progressive or CineMotion for component-video, the boundaries of the horizintal lines should be _absolutely_ sharp, and even more so thru HDMI.


----------



## Oliver Deplace

Ken:

MID vertical positioning does degrade the image. It's not as obvious, but it displays the same "cyclic" behavior.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ioannisds* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can you maybe explain to me how adjusting the foreground image over the background raster is different/necessary? I was able to get my geometry and overscan looking pretty good without ever diving into the MID3 menu. I just adjusted HPOS, HSIZ, VPOS, and VSIZ until I got my crosshatch well centered and sized, and then did some touch-ups to correct a little vertical bowing and the like. Reading your posts, it would appear that I did not go about this in the right way.



As I mentioned previously, my comments refer to the XBR960, which has been observed to have a somewhat different Service Menu set of adjustments than the lower-end models and even earlier XBR models. So if what I've said doesn't quite apply to your model, well that may just be true.


But as best as I can describe it, I think the Sony approach to geometry/overscan adjustment is sort of like with Adobe Photoshop where you have a "canvas" in the background ( background layer), on which the "image" is overlaid in the one foreground layer (on top of the background layer). The visible portion of the foreground image layer can never exceed the limits set by the dimensions of the background layer underneath it. In Photoshop you can have multiple foreground layers, but on the Sony sets we're limited to one foreground layer... namely the image itself.


So in general terms, your use of the Sony Service Menu items I've described facilitates your attempt to try and achieve "optimal" settings for both background layer and foreground layer geometry and overscan.


First, you try and maximize use of screen real estate by adjusting the background layer (i.e. "raster") to just fill the screen, meaning the foreground image on top of it if enlarged to exactly match the size of the background raster will have 0% overscan. If the background layer is smaller than the entire screen, you will not be able to spread the image to the extreme edges of the screen since the background layer (i.e. "canvas") limits the outer bounds of that foreground image layer. Spreading the background layer to the four edges of the screen guarantees a 16x9 image and if you use a good overscan test pattern you will be able to tweak for uniform overscan around all four edges.


Second, you adjust the foreground image layer to get whatever overscan percentage you want (e.g. 1-3%) uniformly around all four edges, since you now know that the background layer completely fills the screen. Since the foreground image layer can never exceed the limits imposed by the background layer underneath it, if you spread the foreground image WIDER and TALLER than the background layer underneath it, you will in essence be imposing whatever overscan percentage you want on the image, i.e. "cropping" the foreground image by making some extreme outer percentage of it invisible (by exceeding the limits of the background layer).


Again, you need to be using a good stationary overscan test pattern all the while, so that you can see exactly the effect of your tweaks (which, of course, should be applied just one click at a time so that you can see exactly what you are doing).


And this is a delicate process, so take it slow.


Also note that if you adjust for 0% overscan (maximizing visible broadcast image), everything you see will be slightly smaller than if you implement a non-zero overscan (where the overall displayed image will appear slightly larger). This is because if you crop 1-3% of the outside of the image, but still fill 100% of the screen with the 97-99% that's left, the displayed remaining portion of the cropped image will by necessity have to be magnified slightly to fill 100% of the screen. So everying on that image will look a little bigger than if you have 0% overscan and thus display 100% of the broadcast image on 100% of the screen.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gab2409* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have the 30hs420 btw.
> 
> 
> 2 things:
> 
> 1. why does the picture look vastly different on the different picture modes(vivid, etc), when they are set exactly the same as pro? I did the SM tweaks...are they video mode specific? do they just change for the mode I am on?



I honestly don't know. I suspect it might be possible for some tweaks to be video mode specific, and others to be generic for all modes. I guess the only way to know this for sure is to scroll through ALL of the SM values you've written down while in PRO, and then scroll through them again while in VIVID, and see if you see a difference.


And I'm also assuming your set has the Advanced Video -> Mode Memory setting, and that you have selected "ON" so that you can customize EACH video input separately and that your mode and other settings will be memorized and applied to EACH video input separately. I know this lives in the XBR960 and "ON" is how this should be set.


I also know that PRO eliminates essentially all (if not all) of the mode-induced preset/bias service menu values as well as user menu values, and puts everything in your hands and back to "31" neutral settings. From there, I don't know why you'd ever go back to VIVID. That's why you're setting up with PRO, to let you optimize your picture for each video input.


But as to your original question of whether you can sort of re-adjust VIVID (to be used sort of as a second PRO, perhaps with slightly different values so that you can "compare" tweaks before committing them in PRO), I honestly thought that was possible.




> Quote:
> 2. why do you have your dvd player connected to a non-hd input? for a non-hd dvd player, will it matter either way? I have mine connected to 6(an hd input).



INPUT5 and INPUT6 are identical, and are both HD inputs supporting 480p, 720p and 1080i via component video input. Why do you think INPUT5 is not HD?


I have my non-HD DVD player on INPUT5 (at 480p) so that my settings for that input are specific for my DVD player and its video output characteristics at 480p. I have my DVR on INPUT6, and I only watch 720p/1080i HD channels through it. But by being on INPUT6 (separate from my 480p INPUT5) I can again adjust the XBR960 for optimal picture as put out by the DVR.




> Quote:
> 3. lastly, my picture still seems too dark. I've played with the brightness and contrast. when I turn either up, it starts to look washed out. here are my settings:...



Well I really can't say. It's a 30HS420, not a 34XBR960, so I wouldn't expect the picture quality to be the same... even optimally adjusted.


Also, adjustment results are in the eye of the beholder. My brightness/contrast values might be inappropriate for your eyes and your set, and vice versa. I do notice that my "red push" adjustments are slightly different from yours, but that shouldn't affect your "too dark" observation.


Are you watching in a dark room, or broad daylight?


Don't really know what to say, assuming you're wanting to stay with the 30HS420. For example, the KDSR-50XBR1 has AMAZING brightness!


----------



## ioannisds

Thanks for the information DSperber. I think I've got it down now.


----------



## gab2409




> Quote:
> The first thing I would try would be to raise the value in GAMM to 1, maybe 2. This will tend to "flatten" the image by brightening the midtone values. If you find you like something between 0 and 1, you can adjust the parameters of GAMR, GAMG and GAMB to equal levels. For example, KenTech suggested that if you could use GAMM @0 then set GAMR, GAMG,GAMB to 3,3,3.



gamm=3 worked wonders...that fixed my problems. thanks a lot.


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Deplace* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Normally, you would do your positioning and sizing entirely with 2170D-1 & 2.



Yes, I *tried* to do all of my size/position alterations in D-1 & D-2. But, there were "offsets" between different inputs (ie. RF, 4880i; V5/V6480p; etc...) that I needed to correct, to get the image properly centered/sized. I ended up optimizing D-1 & D-2 for V5/V6, 480p, Full as my dvd player quality is the most important to me; and then I tweaked the MID settings for RF, 480i, widezoom and normal to center and size my cable channels. I don't have HD at all at the moment...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Deplace* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Horizontal work might require some MID adjustment and they didn't thicken the lines in test patterns (apart from what one might expect when stretching the image).
> 
> 
> Zoom would only require MID horizontal stretching and centering.



So, is the concensus that all MID Vertical size/position settings *do* degrade the image quality (albeit very subtle...) and that the Horizontal settings do not?


--

corlay


----------



## Ectospheno




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ecto,
> 
> 
> Actually, RGBS is an adjustment parameter in the Service menu. It will turn on/off any combination of the color guns.
> 
> The adjustments you will use to correct the color decoder is: 2170P-4 #7RYR/#8RYB/#9GYR/#10GYB. Most people have found that you can get quite close using the settings 14-14-6-4 for the above parameters in the 2170P-4 menu.



Thanks for the help. The rest of the family was out of the house tonight so I worked up the courage to explore the service codes. Easier than I thought it would be. 14-14-6-4 is indeed much better than it was. I'm going to leave it here for a week or so to see how I like it.


On a different note, I'll have to disagree with others here on the sharpness settings. I don't see how people lower their sharpness to 0 and turn VM off. I'm pretty sure video game text isn't intended to be blurry. Just my $.02.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ectospheno* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ........ I don't see how people lower their sharpness to 0 and turn VM off. I'm pretty sure video game text isn't intended to be blurry. Just my $.02.



"0" is not always the setting. You need to look closely at dark vertical lines on a medium background and set sharpness to the point the white shadow to the right of it just disappears. Lowering sharpness too much can soften the picture too much.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ectospheno* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help. The rest of the family was out of the house tonight so I worked up the courage to explore the service codes. Easier than I thought it would be. 14-14-6-4 is indeed much better than it was. I'm going to leave it here for a week or so to see how I like it.
> 
> 
> On a different note, I'll have to disagree with others here on the sharpness settings. I don't see how people lower their sharpness to 0 and turn VM off. I'm pretty sure video game text isn't intended to be blurry. Just my $.02.



I tried to go along with the "no VM" majority but I just could not enjoy my viewing experience that way. I have pretty much settled on ClearEdge at Low. I believe my Sharpness setting is at around 25%.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I tried to go along with the "no VM" majority but I just could not enjoy my viewing experience that way. I have pretty much settled on ClearEdge at Low. I believe my Sharpness setting is at around 25%.



This is consistant with those who want some extra sharpness in the picture, without overly distorting the image. Typical with longer viewing distances, the 34" is nearly 25% the viewing area of a 65", but to see the same detail, you need to sit at 1/2 the distance, not many sit 5-6 feet from the TV. I sit 12' from a 110" screen, don't need or want any edge enhancement.


----------



## Mindman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Istari1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Look for the posts on adjusting LANDING I bet this is your issue.



On my TV there actually aren't any LANDING settings in the SM, I checked 3 times to be sure. I don't think that's it though. There isn't any discoloration. Just some bleeding, if you will. I am trying to figure out the best way to describe it. I will have a screenshot of my TV today or tomorrow.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gab2409* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why does the picture look vastly different on the different picture modes(vivid, etc), when they are set exactly the same as pro? I did the SM tweaks...are they video mode specific? do they just change for the mode I am on?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I honestly don't know. I suspect it might be possible for some tweaks to be video mode specific, and others to be generic for all modes. I guess the only way to know this for sure is to scroll through ALL of the SM values you've written down while in PRO, and then scroll through them again while in VIVID, and see if you see a difference.



The relationships between the picture modes and service-mode settings are made very plain in the service-data chart. Where there are multiple columns labeled with picture-mode names, the settings are picture-mode-specific. Don't even _think_ about making changes in service mode without one of these charts at hand!


Also, from article #05:

The various picture-mode settings in late-model HS/XS/XBR Sony sets are not set in stone. They are simply pointers to a large group of presets that can be completely reconfigured in service mode. For example, I have no use for the factory's settings for Vivid and Standard - they're way too garish and have too many enhancements for my taste. So I have Left Pro pretty much alone, as a reference. Then I have commandeered Vivid for experimentation, and set up Standard and Movie to be equivalent to Pro, but with higher gamma, to resurrect murky video.
Bottom line: The appearance of each picture mode is overwhelmingly determined by service-mode settings, not by user-menu settings. You get to change them, if you wish. See the service-data chart for your set to see how to do this. (These charts have been posted multiple times. See forum Contents in message #1 to track them down. Use these Contents to identify other postings that will help you; some of these issues have been discussed over and over again.)


----------



## Mindman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can you supply us with a picture of the screen?




Yes, shortly. I gotta get to the bottom of this and find out what is going on, lol.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ectospheno* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help. The rest of the family was out of the house tonight so I worked up the courage to explore the service codes. Easier than I thought it would be. 14-14-6-4 is indeed much better than it was. I'm going to leave it here for a week or so to see how I like it.



Spend some time with different settings. I think I have finally settled on 14-15-6-4. No setting seems perfect...some compromise must be made.



> Quote:
> On a different note, I'll have to disagree with others here on the sharpness settings. I don't see how people lower their sharpness to 0 and turn VM off. I'm pretty sure video game text isn't intended to be blurry. Just my $.02.



It seems like it shouldn't be blurry unless it is out of focus or the contrast (picture) is set too high. I have sharpness at minimum and Velcocity SCan Mod. turned off, and nothing except very small text is blurry.


----------



## Ectospheno




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justsc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I tried to go along with the "no VM" majority but I just could not enjoy my viewing experience that way. I have pretty much settled on ClearEdge at Low. I believe my Sharpness setting is at around 25%.



I went with Medium and 20%. Too many 480p video games on PS2 and Gamecube had crappy text otherwise.


----------



## Ectospheno




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RWetmore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It seems like it shouldn't be blurry unless it is out of focus or the contrast (picture) is set too high. I have sharpness at minimum and Velcocity SCan Mod. turned off, and nothing except very small text is blurry.



My contrast is only a little higher than I'd like it to be because my wife doesn't like it at the setting I prefer. It isn't high enough to be causing that problem though.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Personally i think contrast looks best in the middle, i use brightness to brighten the picture.


----------



## dlrzrwlf

Great thread, very helpful.


I was wondering if there is a specific setting that affects horizontal size while in zoom mode only. I have a kd36xs955 and I have successfully fixed the convergence/picture issues that I had with the set, however I can not seem to adjust the horizontal size of the picture in zoom mode without adjusting all other modes. I have a service manual, and I have searched this thread, but I still can't seem to figure it out. Thanks


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dlrzrwlf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can not seem to adjust the horizontal size of the picture in zoom mode without adjusting all other modes. I have a service manual, and I have searched this thread, but I still can't seem to figure it out.



Nor has anyone else! Bottom line, there's only one legit setting parameter for width (HSIZ), and it is common for normal (Full) and for zoomed modes. I wanted to use Zoom to make a 4:3 picture broadcast in HD (normally pillarboxed) fill the screen. Of course, it _overfills_ the screen, and there's no remedy without screwing up the Full mode.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Personally i think contrast looks best in the middle, i use brightness to brighten the picture.



Huh? No two people can really compare their Contrast settings because what each person experiences depends so heavily on how the TV is set up in service mode. Further, contrast sets the _maximum_ brightness, supposedly white, and different people react differently to this setting, depending on the room illumination.


On the other hand, "Brightness" in the user menu is actually _black level_, and it can be set correctly for any particular program or DVD. Set too high, and there are no deep blacks; too low, and you've got black "holes" instead of shadow detail. (Depends somewhat on room brightness.)


If there is a discretionary setting for picture "comfort," it would be Contrast, not Brightness. Black should be black, but how bright the whites and light colors are is up to you and your eyes.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Huh? No two people can really compare their Contrast settings because what each person experiences depends so heavily on how the TV is set up in service mode. Further, contrast sets the _maximum_ brightness, supposedly white, and different people react differently to this setting, depending on the room illumination.
> 
> 
> On the other hand, "Brightness" in the user menu is actually _black level_, and it can be set correctly for any particular program or DVD. Set too high, and there are no deep blacks; too low, and you've got black "holes" instead of shadow detail. (Depends somewhat on room brightness.)
> 
> 
> If there is a discretionary setting for picture "comfort," it would be Contrast, not Brightness. Black should be black, but how bright the whites and light colors are is up to you and your eyes.



I know that.. but thanks for the lecture


----------



## net17

Has anyone used the HDNet test pattern to test overscan? If so what numbers are you using top, bottom, and side to side...I have heard different ways to go about this...ie 5 top and bottom, and 10 side to side...anyone else?


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ectospheno* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I went with Medium and 20%. Too many 480p video games on PS2 and Gamecube had crappy text otherwise.



Well this probably explains why I opt for sharpness=MIN and VM=OFF and think it looks stunningly clear and brilliant.


I do not play ANY games, and hardly ever watch DVD's. My XBR960 is used almost exclusively for 720p/1080i from Comcast HD or OTA HD.


The proof-positive for me: US Open Tennis looks like they're playing right inside my set. The white lines are absolutely perfect with no ringing or red edge or anything other than pure white. You can see every zit and whisker on skin, every bead of perspiration on face and arms and legs, all in microscopic detail. Next would be "Rome" on HBO, and then "Fifth Element" in HD.


----------



## Shawn Watson

How do I fix the overscan on a Sony Bravia 50KDFE50A12U?


----------



## TheGodfather

I've had a little mess-up with my MID3, HSIZ, HPOS, VSIZ, and VPOS settings. Can anyone supply me with the stock ones, so that I may startover? When watching CNN, it isn't taking up the whole screen...


I dont have a 4:3 overscan pattern. If anyone would supply me one, I would really aprreciate it.


Edit: I think I've fixed it, but I'd still appreciate a Overscan pattern


----------



## corlay

could someone explain how the 'Zoom'screen mode functions?


I had thought that it just takes *whatever* source video is input, and just magnifies that image to a pre-determined amount (relative to the screen center); thus increasing the overscan at all four screen edges (top, bottom, left, right).


But yesterday, I was monkeying around with different test images from DVE; and found that certain slides are not zoomed proportionately. For the 4:3 slide with circles and grid pattern, the image Zooms proportionately; so that the circles remain circles. But for the 16:9 equivalent pattern, Zoom does not zoom the image proportionately, and the circles get compressed in the horizontal direction.


Does this make sense to anyone?


my set is 30HS420.

DVD player outputs at the 16:9 setting.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *corlay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> could someone explain how the 'Zoom'screen mode functions?
> 
> .............I was monkeying around with different test images from DVE; and found that certain slides are not zoomed proportionately. For the 4:3 slide with circles and grid pattern, the image Zooms proportionately; so that the circles remain circles. But for the 16:9 equivalent pattern, Zoom does not zoom the image proportionately, and the circles get compressed in the horizontal direction.
> 
> 
> Does this make sense to anyone?
> 
> 
> my set is 30HS420.
> 
> DVD player outputs at the 16:9 setting.



I believe the 16:9 patterns on DVE are anamorphic/enhanced for 16x9. Since you have your DVD player correctly set for 16:9, they are being sent to your set in a format that only displays correctly in FULL mode.


The WIDE ZOOM mode zooms in a non-linear way such that the left and right of the frame is zoomed leaving the center relatively untouched.


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> .The WIDE ZOOM mode zooms in a non-linear way such that the left and right of the frame is zoomed leaving the center relatively untouched.



just to clarify: I was inquiring about the 'Zoom' screen mode, and not 'Wide Zoom'...


----------



## Mindman

Okay guys, I have *finally taken some pictures of my TV screen that clearly show the problem I am having*! The pics are attached. Again I have the KV-30HS420.


The pics show the bottom left hand corner of my screen, and show a nice (ugly) red outline around the character's arm, which is the problem I've been having - red outlines. Since I haven't been able to accurately describe it until now, it's good to be able to show you guys so you can offer me some more advice.










I have tried the focus controls (particularly DQP and DF) and I can get rid of the problem on the left side as shown in the pics at a price of losing focus, which obviously isn't acceptable. I should note that the right side of the screen has slight green outlines, but they don't bother me as they aren't anywhere near as bad as the left side. In both cases, the problem seems to be far more prevelant in the corners.


The D-CONV convergence settings don't seem to help any either. Does it need a magnet adjustment? It really seems like the colors are not aligned right, but again, only really in the corners. If it's not possible to fix via the service menu (which I am thinking is the case, unless there is something else I could try) what do I need to tell a Sony-certified tech to accurately fix my problem??


Thanks so much!!


----------



## TheGodfather

I'm guessing that that is a massive convergence issue.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

It really does look like something that the convergence settings should remedy. The D-CON menu allows for 5 different areas of effect per Left and Right side: Entire side, upper middle upper corner, lower middle and lower corner. Have you tried putting up a crosshatch or dot pattern to see EXACTLY where the problem is? I'm sure it is more noticeable in the corners but sometimes the entire screen is off. With a crosshatch/dot pattern you can check the center. If the center's convergence is off, CADJ will center it up. THEN work out towards the sides.


A couple more questions:

Is the red shifted to the left on both sides of the screen or is blue offset (to the left) on the right side of the screen. This could indicate if an mechanical adjustment to the yoke is neccessary.

Are any of your D-CONV settings maxed (either 0 or 63)? sometimes you have to make compromises in one area to make room to ajdust another.


My corners aren't perfect either, but 95% of my screen is stellar. You can also lessen the severity of the color flare by getting your set out of "torch" mode!







Meaning, Don't view in VIVID mode, turn down the CONTRAST and view in a properly darkened room (please note that I didn't say "dark"! I just recently experienced the "magic" of backlighting my 34SX955. It really takes the strain out of viewing and increases the percieved contrast.

I can tell you've got your TV maxed out since you took your photos in a brightly lit room and your screen was still uber-bright! Do your set and your eyes a favor and turn some settings down.


Hope this has helped,


Bryan


----------



## GlenC

The D-CONV settings work blue and red together. D-CONV severely off will show distinct Red/Green/Blue with a vertical line. If red is the only problem, call Sony service. If still under warranty, call Sony.


----------



## TheGodfather

Quick question- does work in the service menu void your warranty? If so, which part? Parts? Labor? Tube?


----------



## Mindman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It really does look like something that the convergence settings should remedy. The D-CON menu allows for 5 different areas of effect per Left and Right side: Entire side, upper middle upper corner, lower middle and lower corner. Have you tried putting up a crosshatch or dot pattern to see EXACTLY where the problem is? I'm sure it is more noticeable in the corners but sometimes the entire screen is off. With a crosshatch/dot pattern you can check the center. If the center's convergence is off, CADJ will center it up. THEN work out towards the sides.
> 
> 
> A couple more questions:
> 
> Is the red shifted to the left on both sides of the screen or is blue offset (to the left) on the right side of the screen. This could indicate if an mechanical adjustment to the yoke is neccessary.
> 
> Are any of your D-CONV settings maxed (either 0 or 63)? sometimes you have to make compromises in one area to make room to ajdust another.
> 
> 
> My corners aren't perfect either, but 95% of my screen is stellar. You can also lessen the severity of the color flare by getting your set out of "torch" mode!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meaning, Don't view in VIVID mode, turn down the CONTRAST and view in a properly darkened room (please note that I didn't say "dark"! I just recently experienced the "magic" of backlighting my 34SX955. It really takes the strain out of viewing and increases the percieved contrast.
> 
> I can tell you've got your TV maxed out since you took your photos in a brightly lit room and your screen was still uber-bright! Do your set and your eyes a favor and turn some settings down.
> 
> 
> Hope this has helped,
> 
> 
> Bryan



Thanks for the info. First of all, I do NOT have my TV on Vivid, or with high contrast or color or whatever else.







I am using Pro, with low contrast and very comfortable viewing conditions. For some reason or another it looks like I am using Vivid in the pics, but that's definitely not the case!










I just went and checked the convergence settings again and none of them are maxed out. I used the dot and a crosshatch pattern from this thread and I watched different parts of the screen as I adjusted them, and I didn't see any colors moving, and the red problem definitely didn't get better or worse in the game shown in the screenshots.


With the dot pattern, the dots seem to get a little blurrier/wider on the sides, though, but they too are not affected by the convergence settings. I can see all 3 colors on each dot, but they are more tightly packed in the center. If anything, I can seem some red off to the left side of the dots on the far left of the screen. Not much though.


With the crosshatch pattern, the lines in the center seem perfect. Again, they seem to seperate a little when getting closer to the sides like the dots, and are not affected by the convergence settings.


I don't have a good test to see if blues show off to the left on the right side of the screen, but I haven't seen that yet in my games. I have, however, seen SOME red off to the left on the RIGHT side of the screen, just not anywhere near as bad as the left side. That seems to show up better in games than when using the test patterns, and both the games and the test pattern are being displayed through my Xbox 360.


This is quite perplexing.







What else could it be???


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that you would watch your set in "torch" mode, I made a poor assumption based on the photos.


If it is only red that seems to be off, I'll have to concur with GlenC. Time to call the service techs. Boo!


Regards,


Bryan


----------



## Bosniac

Hello, this message is directed towards anyone that can help me. I stumbled up this thread by looking at the net, and reading a LOT of info in this thread about the Service Menu, e.t.c.


Well, I was trying to adjust my horozontal, and vertical size of the screen, as my KD30XS955 seems to be too "zoomed" in, esp. when connected to an Xbox 360, and while playing some games.



Well, as unluck struck me, I have, entered the "infamous 7,9, ENTER code in sequence (please don't ask why), and all the parimeters have reset themselves. Now my TV is all screwed up.


Is there a way to set it to the way I bought it, or am I looking at some servie repair charges here.



Please, I am in desperate help.


----------



## Mindman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that you would watch your set in "torch" mode, I made a poor assumption based on the photos.
> 
> 
> If it is only red that seems to be off, I'll have to concur with GlenC. Time to call the service techs. Boo!
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Bryan




That's what I am thinking as well. KenTech, SurfingMatt27, care to chime in on this issue as well?


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mindman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's what I am thinking as well. KenTech, SurfingMatt27, care to chime in on this issue as well?



Having a high contrast setting can effect convergance as well, But if your contrast is relatively low it should'nt be an issue.


I have some minor convergance issues on the sides but after a while when the tv warms upo they go away. Could you try that and wait untill it warms up then tell me if you still have issues?


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mindman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Okay guys, I have *finally taken some pictures of my TV screen that clearly show the problem I am having*! The pics are attached. Again I have the KV-30HS420.
> 
> 
> The pics show the bottom left hand corner of my screen, and show a nice (ugly) red outline around the character's arm, which is the problem I've been having - red outlines. Since I haven't been able to accurately describe it until now, it's good to be able to show you guys so you can offer me some more advice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have tried the focus controls (particularly DQP and DF) and I can get rid of the problem on the left side as shown in the pics at a price of losing focus, which obviously isn't acceptable. I should note that the right side of the screen has slight green outlines, but they don't bother me as they aren't anywhere near as bad as the left side. In both cases, the problem seems to be far more prevelant in the corners.
> 
> 
> The D-CONV convergence settings don't seem to help any either. Does it need a magnet adjustment? It really seems like the colors are not aligned right, but again, only really in the corners. If it's not possible to fix via the service menu (which I am thinking is the case, unless there is something else I could try) what do I need to tell a Sony-certified tech to accurately fix my problem??
> 
> 
> Thanks so much!!



Mindman i have the same issue on my sony in the bottom left hand corner, but it's so minor that i would'nt worry about it. On a CRT HDTV you are never going to get perfect convergance in the corners anyways so as long as the picture is fine in the middle and it's only your bottom corner that has the issue, i would'nt worry man. After a while you won't notice it. I've had my sony for over 3 years now going on 4 years this october not a single issue.


----------



## Mindman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mindman i have the same issue on my sony in the bottom left hand corner, but it's so minor that i would'nt worry about it. On a CRT HDTV you are never going to get perfect convergance in the corners anyways so as long as the picture is fine in the middle and it's only your bottom corner that has the issue, i would'nt worry man. After a while you won't notice it. I've had my sony for over 3 years now going on 4 years this october not a single issue.



Good point. In fact, it makes me feel better about this knowing someone else has an issue with it too. You are are da bomb, man. Thanks for being so helpful with this here and in the PMs.


I would still like to hear KenTech's opinion... he has been mysteriously silent.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

The truth is convergane will never be perfect on a CRT, you can get close but not perfection. having minor issue in the corners is normal.As long as it does'nt happen anywhere else then i would'nt worry.


Enjoy your tv!


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Bosniac,


Is luck would have it, you can download the service manual in .pdf from the first post in the thread. A bit of time invested and things should be o.k with the default settings.


While you are taking the time to systematically restore the defaults, I suggest you scan the other highlighted topics in the first post and apply some more refinements to your set while you are in there.


There are a couple of others who have done the same as you and it would be worthwhile to PM them and see if there were any stumbling blocks. (I purposely neglected to provide their names to encourage you to read this entire thread before proceeding any further. Not a punishment, just an education. It will make more sense when you dive in.)


Best of luck, brother.


Regards,


Bryan


----------



## Bosniac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bosniac,
> 
> 
> Is luck would have it, you can download the service manual in .pdf from the first post in the thread. A bit of time invested and things should be o.k with the default settings.
> 
> 
> While you are taking the time to systematically restore the defaults, I suggest you scan the other highlighted topics in the first post and apply some more refinements to your set while you are in there.
> 
> 
> There are a couple of others who have done the same as you and it would be worthwhile to PM them and see if there were any stumbling blocks. (I purposely neglected to provide their names to encourage you to read this entire thread before proceeding any further. Not a punishment, just an education. It will make more sense when you dive in.)
> 
> 
> Best of luck, brother.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Bryan



Thanks.


See I allready did that. But I'm having a hard time configuring out the service manual myself.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mindman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The pics show the bottom left hand corner of my screen, and show a nice (ugly) red outline around the character's arm, which is the problem I've been having - red outlines. . . . The D-CONV convergence settings don't seem to help any either.



Agreeing with what others have said, I think this is most certainly a color-convergence problem. The only issue may be whether this amount is outslide the range of adjustment of the usual controls.


The primary service-mode parameter is D-CONV Nos. 11 and 10, LLBW and LLMB (if it is left side only). See section 2-3.4 in the servicve manual. If the issue extends along the bottome of the screen, you should probably fix the center-bottom first with #1, YBLW.


There may be an interaction with LANDING #1, LB. You might check to see if this is cranked to an extreme value, 128 being the center value (no effect).


If there is an anomaly in the deflection system or a badly-placed magnet doing this, you have little choice but to see what's up with magnets on this area. (Requires opening up the set.)


At least it's a *horizontal*-convergence issue, theoretically adjustable by you. Vertical fringing on horizontal edges is not adjustable in service mode.


I agree with Glen that a red-only issue is a defect. If you adjust convergence for the red, however, the defect will be likely much less visible, as blue fringing is not nearly so visible. When I have adjusted convergence, it was the red that got my attention, and I minimized the red fringing. The blue, never very visible in the first place, snapped into line as well. Hope yours does the same. It may not be a red-only issue -- just that the opposing blue fringe is so trumped by the red.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TheGodfather* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Quick question- does work in the service menu void your warranty? If so, which part? Parts? Labor? Tube?



If you completely reinitialize all the settings with one of the dangerous three-key combos, a service tech might suspect that you did this, as the evidence is pretty clear, and charge you for restoring the set. But your centering, color, brightness, etc. adjustments in service mode are no different from the factory's adjustments -- that is, they don't leave behind some special trace, like breaking a seal on a box. Every set sold has many settings different from the defaults, since there are manufacturing variations that require final tweaking at the factory (mostly the yellow boxes in the service-data charts).


Further, making sensible adjustments can't possibly void warranty, as Sony would have to prove any subsequent failure was the result of your actions. When a Tech came to my house under the service warranty to adjust vertical color convergence for me (magnets on neck of CRT), he didn't blink when I discussed common service-mode settings with him.


An example of an error on your part that would get you charged a service charge if it persisted might be this: You tinker with one of the essential sweep-timing settings, and the picture is hopelessly scrambled or disappears entirely. If you were to WRITE the settings, you'd really be up the creek! Lesson: If you make a Big Mistake, STOP, and just power down immediately, perhape even unplug and replug in the set. You are mostly protected from big goofs, except for those nasty master-reset three-key combos: Unlike your favorite computer programs, there is no last-chance message, "Reset everything? Are you kidding? [OK, Cancel]


----------



## TheGodfather

Hehe, thanks. I like the part about discussing the service menu with the tech, smooth!


----------



## WizJr

Hello,


I know that this has probably been brought up before but I could not find a difinitive answer here. I just recently got my new KD-34XBR970 and have noticed that when watching an image in widescreen (with the black bars at the top and bottom) and also just by looking at the information displayed at the top of the screen the the image tends to bow slightly from one side to another. What I mean to say is that it starts low gets higher in the middle and ends at the same low spot it started from on the other side. The only way I can illustrate this is to do this ___------------___ . It is a very gradual cure and nowhere near as exagerated as the illustration but it is consistant throughout the picture that is to say it bow from side to side completely from the top of the screen to the bottom. It's not a huge issue as I watch most things in HD and with the TV set to FULL screen size at 1080i you can't even tell unless the display info pops up. Anyways, to complete my rambling question, is there a setting in the service code menu that will help with this and if so, on what menu is it? I spent last evening trying to find the correct setting but there are enough to boggle the mind. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,


Elliott


----------



## Shawn Watson

I really need to know how to fix the overscan on a Sony Bravia 50KDFE50A12U. Any help at all, please?


Shawn


----------



## rarerequest

Are there any internal test patterns for sony wega KD-27FS100 ?

Does anyone know how to adjust the maximum white level?

My tv have weak colors and pretty poor color tone .


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WizJr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What I mean to say is that it starts low gets higher in the middle and ends at the same low spot it started from on the other side.



Do you mean that a horizontal line going thru the center of the screen isn't straight but curved, with the left and right ends turned down a bit and the center high? Same for lines above and below center?


----------



## WizJr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you mean that a horizontal line going thru the center of the screen isn't straight but curved, with the left and right ends turned down a bit and the center high? Same for lines above and below center?




Yes! That is exactly what I mean. It seems as if the line is perfectly straight for most of the screen width but about 2-3 inches from each end it curves down just a little. After I posted this yesterday I saw something that said this was a flaw in all 34X***** model televisions and had something to do with the magnets. IS that the case and if so should I bother to call sony repair to fix it or not bother because they will just become unaligned again?


Thanks,


Elliott


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WizJr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes! That is exactly what I mean. It seems as if the line is perfectly straight for most of the screen width but about 2-3 inches from each end it curves down just a little. After I posted this yesterday I saw something that said this was a flaw in all 34X***** model televisions and had something to do with the magnets. IS that the case and if so should I bother to call sony repair to fix it or not bother because they will just become unaligned again?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Elliott



Welcome to the world of CRT. Geometry is one of the main areas you need to compromise. If you want absolute perfect geometry, you need a digital pixel display, but there are other compromises there too. The bending lines are on all CRT displays to some degree, more noticeable on the flat widescreen models. It is just the nature of trying to bend an image from a point source with magnets and make the TV affordable by eliminating a lot of geometry circuits to correct the problem. Many $30K+ CRT projectors have this capability, but not in a consumer display.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WizJr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> After I posted this yesterday I saw something that said this was a flaw in all 34X***** model televisions and had something to do with the magnets. IS that the case and if so should I bother to call sony repair to fix it or not bother because they will just become unaligned again?



No, it won't become "unaligned" again. The flaw is in the initial setup. Cure it, and it's cured forever.


Curvature of horizontal lines can be adjusted only by magnets or by deflection-yoke alignment, and we don't really know the cause in your case. I don't believe for a second that it's a flaw in all 34X*** TVs, because the cause is not something inherent in the design. Sony might have made a bad run of deflection-yoke assemblies that has appeared in a certain production run of TVs, but that would have a beginning and ending point. Same thing if a geometry-setup technician was having a bad week and did a second-rate job on 100 TVs -- who knows? My 36XS955, which has virtually the same technical deflection task as yours, is perfect, and I have seen 34XBR960s that were perfect at screen center. A little gamey in the corners, perhaps, but not in the "meat" of the picture. (The "XBR" designation would have no bearing on this.)


As Glen says, no CRT set is lkely to be perfect in geometry, but we who love them for their virtues will just have to forgive them a few quirks. Flat-panel sets have their own quirks and limitations, albeit perfect geometry. This month, this year, I would still buy another CRT-TV (if available!). Your set, it seems to me, goes a bit beyond "quirk."


If you are really not splitting hairs, and this really is annoying from your normal viewing position, I would complain under the service warranty to see if a tech can come out and improve on it. Call directly a local shop recommended by a store that sells the set; you're likely to get more cooperation than calling Sony, who may stonewall.


----------



## Reagan

I haven't checked this thread in about a year (it's a great thread). I browsed the table of contents and the .pdf files of the service menu and can't find what I'm looking for. Hopefully, someone here knows how to do what I want and wouldn't mind sharing the solution with me.


I have a two year old 420. In short, I want to remove the internal tuner (NTSC only) from the input list. I know that I can use the channel fix to set it to Video 1, but I don't want that either. Now that I've removed my VCR from the pipeline, I only use the two component inputs and the HDMI input. Just those three. So when I hit input, I don't want to stop at the tuner or video 1. I can't figure out any combination of settings on the user menu (if I set Video 1 to skip, it goes to the tuner) or identify any part of the service menu that allows for this. Does anyone know the answer?


Thanks,

Reagan


----------



## kidblast

For starters, thanks! This thread helped me dial in my TV and get rid of much of my overscan. It was at almost 7% on all sides and is now down to 2% on all sides. You guys rock!


I do have a question though. The top left and right sides of my screen (in HD mode, 1080i) are a little messed up and there has been nothing I've seen that has fixed it. I'd post a picture but I don't have 5 posts yet. I could email the picture. It's pretty much the top inch of the screen. The left and right 25% of the screen is warped and is skewing in towrds the center. Normal geometry corrections have done nothing.


Do you have any suggestions for me? Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks for all you help, keep it up!


Justin


----------



## Twiin

I'm having a bit of a problem with my 30XS955, and I'm not sure if it's something that's resolvable via service codes or not, hopefully someone knows if this can be changed.


Recently (and it wasn't always this way), there's been a weird horizontal distortion on my screen. It's most noticeable on vertical lines in letters, but it affects the entire image. A line which would normally look like this:


|

|

|

|

|


...now looks like this:


\\

/

\\

/

\\


The zig-zags are probably a few millimeters tall at most, and the distortion is constantly moving, if that makes any sense. The edges of any crisp letters are constantly wavering with this distortion.


I did some minor adjustments via the service menu when I installed this set, but otherwise I haven't touched anything. AFAIK, service codes are on a per-input basis, and this problem occurs anytime there's an image on the screen, on any input, so I'm a bit concerned it's a problem with the set, and not something I can fix via the service codes.


Any thoughts? Is there a setting to adjust anything like this? I imported my TV, so I effectively have no warranty service.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Reagan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a two year old 420. In short, I want to remove the internal tuner (NTSC only) from the input list. I know that I can use the channel fix to set it to Video 1, but I don't want that either.



It appears to me that the programming of the user menus does not treat the internal tuner(s) as an "input." I understand: That would be confusing to most consumers. I think of it as "V8."


Nothing I see in the service-mode codes or menu options appears to eliminate the tuner from the "input" list. Indeed, the tuner is given special status, as an up- or down-channel button press activates the tuner no matter what other input you are using, a convenience I enjoy.


I don't think you can do it.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kidblast* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you have any suggestions for me? Any help would be much appreciated.



Dude, think! You haven't told us what model TV you are talking about! How can anyone help?


(Yes, I know this sounds like scolding. But there are so many folks here who would be *willing* to help -- if inquiring people would just do the obvious to make it easy, so we don't have to beg for more information. Please be specific; no one can read minds, here -- that I know of.)


----------



## kidblast

Sorry.


Sony KV-36XBR450 is the TV I have. I'm not sure that I've seen that model come up in this thread anywhere but most of the service menu adjustments have worked for me.


I kinda think the problem I'm having was never an issue before because my TV had so much overscan that the problem areas where being covered up.


Thanks.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kidblast* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sony KV-36XBR450 is the TV I have. I'm not sure that I've seen that model come up in this thread anywhere but most of the service menu adjustments have worked for me.



The important thing is that you've identified a 4:3 screen, and you're concerned about the _visible_ top and bottom edges of the HD/16:9 reduced-height scan.


I have a 36XS955, and I have the same problem. A rectangle is nearly perfect if it occupies nearly the entire screen -- say 1-2" in from the edges. (I've adjusted it this way.) So a straight line across the screen near the top is displayed quite straight. But if I were to lower this line toward the center, it would go through a "warp" area, where its left and right ends would droop downwards a bit, and then it would be straight again as it reaches the center of the screen. Same thing happens in reverse, upside-down, as I move this hypothetical line further down the screen until it's near the bottom. You can plainly see this effect, of course, with any of the common crosshatch patterns.


I believe it's intractable. I've seen it on every 4:3 big-screen Sony I've ever watched in stores, and on one like mine at a friend's house. The geometry corrections to get a rectangular display on a flat tube are really heroic, but not perfect. I think it would require increased complexity in the deflection system to correct this "defect," and Sony have simply decided not to bother, even though it's obvious whenever viewing 16:9 anamorphic DVDs or HD programming. I find now that I hardly see it unless I look for it -- a good attitude if one can't do anything about it!


Now -- do I have this all wrong, and the above-described "droop" isn't the distortion you're duscussing? (Yes, a picture is always helpful.)


----------



## kidblast

I tried to PM you a screen mock-up but your message box was fool. No problem though...I just can't post any links here till I have 5 posts. I didn't want to make a few garbage posts just so I have 5 though.


The problem I have can't even be seen when I'm watching HD programing but when I'm playing my Xbox360, it sometimes really stands out just because of the nature of the menus, etc. that are being displayed.


I think what you described is pretty close to what's happening. Once I get to 5 posts I'll post a screen mock-up though that shows the problem.


Thanks!


----------



## fallenlordz

Does anybody know what to do? I have a KD-34XBR970 an I am trying to fix the Geometry and Overscan problem of this TV.


When I fix the Geometry and Overscan via the Service menu for 1080i using DVE, it seems the data correlates back to 480p and the 720p Geometry and overscan.


What i mean is when i change the data of VPOS,VSIZ,HCNT,HPOS,HSIZ, etc. On the 1080i I get a great picture. But once i change the data on this 1080i, the data for the 720p would also be changed without my doing. Same goes for the 480p.


Is there a way to save seperate data for 480p, 720p, and 1080i? Without having one be changed by the other.


----------



## Mr.Bitey

Hi All,


Could someone please help me out with the service-menu code for a KV-32LS65AUS ? - I have tried a myriad of codes that ive found thus far on the net, but cannot find the one for this TV










EDIT: I'm wanting to make some overscan adjustments and to see if I can disable some 'repeating' AV inputs (e.g. I have to scroll through one AV1 to get to the 'other' AV1 thats connected to my digital tv box)..


Regards,

Bitey


----------



## nursing

Hi,


Can someone please help with instructions on getting into the service menu for the KV-27HFR. I have tried pressing DISPLAY --> Channel 5 --> Volume + --> POWER with the power off, but all that keeps happening is the TV turns on. I have also tried pressing DISPLAY --> Channel 5 --> POWER...nothing.


Thanks,

Nicholas


----------



## NextGen

I'm having a lot of trouble getting FULL mode and NORMAL mode to work correctly. I have my raster centered and the geometry looking good for my 34xs955-N in 16x9. However, I can't see any difference horizontaly when I switch to NORMAL mode. In other words the 4:3 stretches the full screen instead of giving me a 4:3 image with black bars.


2170D-5 2-1 EWDC set to 1 is perfect for 4:3 and when set to 0 is perfect for 16:9 but EWDC doesn't seem to be independent of FULL and NORMAL. So I have to go into the service mode anytime I watch 4:3 material.


Any help?


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm having a lot of trouble getting FULL mode and NORMAL mode to work correctly. I have my raster centered and the geometry looking good for my 34xs955-N in 16x9. However, I can't see any difference horizontaly when I switch to NORMAL mode. In other words the 4:3 stretches the full screen instead of giving me a 4:3 image with black bars.
> 
> 
> 2170D-5 2-1 EWDC set to 1 is perfect for 4:3 and when set to 0 is perfect for 16:9 but EWDC doesn't seem to be independent of FULL and NORMAL. So I have to go into the service mode anytime I watch 4:3 material.
> 
> 
> Any help?



What INPUT are you doing this with... S-video (INPUT1/3), component (INPUT5/6), HDMI (INPUT7), 1394?


What channel are you trying to watch in 4:3... analog or digital? What is your source... OTA, cable, SAT? What is your STB/DVR? If you're watching from a STB/DVR, is it set to deliver 4:3 (with side bars) or to stretch to 16:9 when it delivers SD to the HDTV? Your problem may be the STB/DVR setting, not the Sony.


----------



## Ironkaw

I have a Sony KD-34XBR970. I've figured out how to get into service mode, and fixed a couple geometry issues, but I have one problem that I'm not sure how to fix, or if I can. The problem affects the left side of the display. For example, when I hit the display button on the remote, the info boxes are displayed in a transparent mode, with gray lines making up the boxes. The box in the top lefthand side of the screen which shows the imput source (Video 1 - 6) and the label associated with it shows distortion. The gray horizontal line that makes up the bottom of the box starts out fine from the right side, but as you go to the left it becomes increasingly distored. By distortion, I mean the colors separate, and it becomes three distince lines bowing downward. One blue line, the a green line bowing lightly more, and finally are red line below that bowing even more than the other two. Is this a major problem, or can it be adjusted from the service mode. I will have a tech. come and work on it if need be, but I would much prefer to figure out with some help how to fix it myself if possible. Any help will be greatlly appreciated. I would also like to say thanks to all who post here, because I have learned alot. This is a great forum!


Thanks


Chris Mason


----------



## 187

Hi guys I just bought a new 30HS420 and I wanted to know if someone have some good settings for the service menu cause I dont want to scroll all these 70 pages... I just read the post from KenTech about the color setting and he was talking about clouds and all these things and I was like this is gonna take me 1 month to calibrate lolll. These forums have been a great source of information since when I registered 3 years ago and I hope someone will help me with this thing







.


Tv is set to Pro mode, color temp natural, clear edge off.


I think my convergence is fairly good and the thing that i want to achieve with this tv is to get the very best shadow details without sacrificing my black level. Its very important for me as a gamer with the 2 consoles i want to buy: X360 and ps3.


Thanks!


----------



## ntwp13

Hello and thank you all for this wonderful thread,


I have started tweaking my KV-34HS510, and have a few geometry questions. I used the table of contents and have tried to read all of the info concerning geometry and under/overscan issues. Please forgive me if I missed something.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the MID1-3 groups, be sure to get the values for width and especially height exactly right, as these values control (as I have discovered) the precise sampling of the video for display. Get the vertical ones wrong, and the image quality will be compromised! There are exact ratios between the particular video-line count and the internal digital representation of that video _that have to be maintained_.
> 
> 
> The critical values are DHAR, DVAR, MDHS, and MDVS in MID1; in MID2, DRHS and DRVS (if relevant); and in MID3, VDHS and VDVS. The correct numbers are the ones in the data tables.
> 
> 
> I would copy all other numbers exactly as listed in the MID1-3 tables, especially MID3 #4-11. The ones associated with "phase" or "pos" (position) can be tweaked a little to balance the centering of a video frame between inputs; but don't mess with these without first getting the positioning right in the 2170D groups.



1. After adjusting the raster, I am still unable to eliminate overscan since the "picture" (MID1-3 settings) seems to be bigger than the raster. Does the above quoted advice mean that I should not resize the "picture", and only use the MID1-3 settings to center "picture" on the raster?


2. I'm having trouble eliminating some severe Horiz bowing at the bottom of the screen. I have eliminated the hump that was in the middle of the bottom lines using VCEN and VPIN. But I cannot seem to get rid of some inward horizontal pinching in the corners. The lower left corner seems to be the worst and is very noticeable in sports/news tickers, or the MCE info box.


Here is what I mean by horizontal pinching. Of course the problem is not nearly this bad:


///-----------------\\\\\\

-----------------------

-----------------------

-----------------------

\\\\\\-----------------///


Thanks for any help.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ntwp13* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello and thank you all for this wonderful thread,
> 
> 
> I have started tweaking my KV-34HS510, and have a few geometry questions. ...............
> 
> 2. I'm having trouble eliminating some severe Horiz bowing at the bottom of the screen. I have eliminated the hump that was in the middle of the bottom lines using VCEN and VPIN. But I cannot seem to get rid of some inward horizontal pinching in the corners. The lower left corner seems to be the worst and is very noticeable in sports/news tickers, or the MCE info box.
> 
> 
> Here is what I mean by horizontal pinching. Of course the problem is not nearly this bad:
> 
> 
> ///-----------------\\\\\\
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> \\\\\\-----------------///
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help.



You might try these service menu items in the 2170D_2 group. A crosshatch pattern is VERY useful for making geometry adjustments. *Record your current settings*. The items have entries for WideZoom mode and Others.

MPIN, horizontal outer and inner pincushion, is effective on inner and outer areas of the screen.

PIN, horizontal outer pincushion, is more effective in the outer areas of the screen.

UCP, upper corner pincushion, straightens the vertical lines in the upper corners.

LCP, lower corner pincushion, straightens the vertical lines in the lower corners.

Good Luck


----------



## ntwp13




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You might try these service menu items in the 2170D_2 group. A crosshatch pattern is VERY useful for making geometry adjustments. *Record your current settings*. The items have entries for WideZoom mode and Others.
> 
> MPIN, horizontal outer and inner pincushion, is effective on inner and outer areas of the screen.
> 
> PIN, horizontal outer pincushion, is more effective in the outer areas of the screen.
> 
> UCP, upper corner pincushion, straightens the vertical lines in the upper corners.
> 
> LCP, lower corner pincushion, straightens the vertical lines in the lower corners.
> 
> Good Luck



Thanks for the quick reply.


I've been using the various test patters posted here including the overscan.bmp and a basic crosshatch.


I thought the MPIN, PIN, UCP, and LCP work on the vertical lines like this:


\\\\||||||||//

||||||||||||

//||||||||\\\\


I suppose that all these settings effect everything else though. I'll give these settings a few tweaks when I get a chance. Thanks.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ironkaw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a Sony KD-34XBR970. I've figured out how to get into service mode, and fixed a couple geometry issues, but I have one problem that I'm not sure how to fix, or if I can. The problem affects the left side of the display. For example, when I hit the display button on the remote, the info boxes are displayed in a transparent mode, with gray lines making up the boxes. The box in the top lefthand side of the screen which shows the imput source (Video 1 - 6) and the label associated with it shows distortion. The gray horizontal line that makes up the bottom of the box starts out fine from the right side, but as you go to the left it becomes increasingly distored. By distortion, I mean the colors separate, and it becomes three distince lines bowing downward. One blue line, the a green line bowing lightly more, and finally are red line below that bowing even more than the other two. Is this a major problem, or can it be adjusted from the service mode. I will have a tech. come and work on it if need be, but I would much prefer to figure out with some help how to fix it myself if possible. Any help will be greatlly appreciated. I would also like to say thanks to all who post here, because I have learned alot. This is a great forum!
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Chris Mason



Sounds like you have a vertical covergence issue. Unfortunately, there are no service menu adjustments for this. The only solution is to get a tech out and see if he can correct it with magnets. If he knows what he is doing, it should not be a difficult fix.


It is not uncommon at all for vertical convergence in these sets to be off in one corner or another. If it is not off too badly, a lazy tech may tell you that it is within spec.


----------



## TotallyTubular

I purchased an XBR970 a few months ago, and I've been happy with its peformance, but I decided I wanted to tweak on the overscan a bit since I've recently hooked my PC up to it. While browsing through the service menu, and playing around with the various settings, I tripped across "APSW" in 2170D-1. To my surprise, it managed to open up some zones I was previously unable to open even while playing with the shutters. Unfortunately though, there is a problem when using this change. The bottom of the screen is severely distorted, and I've no clue of a way to mitigate it's severity.

 


I would appreciate any insight to this problem, whether directly related to the distortion, or else. Thank you.


----------



## TotallyTubular

Update: I've managed to find a solution to my own problem above. Most of it stemmed from my using of the 960's service chart. Basically the 970's service menu is different when it comes to MID3, and took some exploring to make appropriate changes to my canvas.


The distortion on the bottom of the screen was fixed by "PSPT" in Mid3, and my overscan was fixed by using various settings throughout mid1-3, most of which were not on the 960 chart. This may be helpful to some as it was an odd problem to me.


----------



## MOtvGuy

Oh great.










I'm going to suggest to the tech reps at all the service meetings I attend that they eliminate the ability for anyone to access service menus.


----------



## TotallyTubular




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MOtvGuy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh great.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to suggest to the tech reps at all the service meetings I attend that they eliminate the ability for anyone to access service menus.



I take it that's a response to my posts. Why?


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MOtvGuy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh great.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to suggest to the tech reps at all the service meetings I attend that they eliminate the ability for anyone to access service menus.



How do you propose to do that and why?


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MOtvGuy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh great.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to suggest to the tech reps at all the service meetings I attend that they eliminate the ability for anyone to access service menus.



That's no solution.


This ability has been there from the start. It's a fact of life in the tv industry as you already know.


Besides, the more folks that get into the SM and screw up their sets the more business for you, right?


----------



## MOtvGuy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyTubular* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I take it that's a response to my posts. Why?



71 pages of people getting into their service menus and tweaking it.


Some of these are the same people whose VCR's flashed 12:00 for years.


Kinda like telling folks back in the day to get into their autoexec.bat files and start typing even though most of them didn't know what they were doing.


As a servicer the last thing I'd want to do is go through line after line of data settings and try and figure out what the customer has done to screw up his set. Very, very time consuming and un-needed.


----------



## TotallyTubular

I could see how that would be a problem if someone just went through changing every value and _saving_ it that way. I just nibbed at a value here and there to see what it did. I documented it, and managed to fix near every problem I had. If there was any other way to research those settings I would have; turtling through those settings wasn't fun for me either. Do you know of a place, or a way? Oh, and don't worry, my set won't ever see a professional.







I'm a college student.


I see your point though, but I'd say that's a little selfish. My TV wouldv'e never gotten fixed.










I'd like to reiterate. Do you know how I could research what settings do before I go changing things on a TV like the 970? A lot of the S.M. is similar to the 960, but there are obviously some differences.


----------



## bidger

I searched this thread, but couldn't find what I was looking for. I have 2 SONY sets in the same room and am trying to find out if there's any way to change the remote address on one so I don't have to put up with both sets responding to remote commands. TIA.


----------



## jpl3447

I have two TVs in the same room too. I put a piece of electrical tape over the IR spot on the TV that was least used. Then I manually turn it on and off. That is the only thing I could think of.


I wanted to say thanks to KenTech, DSperber and RWetmore for all their tips. Using their advice and explanations I corrected overscan, a minor geometry thing, and improved on the factory settings. I am a student so thanks to the school's computer lab I was able to print out two service data charts (one for each TV) and pencil in any changes I made. I put it all into a binder along with sections containing print outs of articles listed in this thread. I feel very comfortable going into the service menu now. A few hours of research and tweaking yielded results that really made the image on the screen pop. High definiton broadcasts are just amazing and SD is much better. Thanks again!


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What INPUT are you doing this with... S-video (INPUT1/3), component (INPUT5/6), HDMI (INPUT7), 1394?
> 
> 
> What channel are you trying to watch in 4:3... analog or digital? What is your source... OTA, cable, SAT? What is your STB/DVR? If you're watching from a STB/DVR, is it set to deliver 4:3 (with side bars) or to stretch to 16:9 when it delivers SD to the HDTV? Your problem may be the STB/DVR setting, not the Sony.



Input 5, and it does this regardless of the material or source. All 4:3 signals in 480i are slightly wider than they should be, about 2-3 inches on each side need to be gotten rid of. 16:9 sources appear correct in Full mode. As does any other source in any other resolution. Even 480p 4:3 material is perfect, I just can't understand the deal with 480i stuff.


----------



## p3Orion

I recently purchased a Sony KD-27FS170 and would like to change some settings, specifically color calibration and black level. In section 3, COLOR CALIBRATION AND BLACK LEVEL, you state to leave the red settings alone. As such your RDRV is 42 and RCUT is 31. My settings are much higher. RDRV is 84 and RCUT is 100. Are those too high? Should I leave them unchanged and just adjust GDRV (default75), BDRV (default 73), GCUT (default 79), and BCUT (default 76)? Or would using lower settings for all, like you suggest, result in a better image on my TV?


With regard to the other color settings, GDOF through BCOF, you state that the offsets are zero (no effect) when the codes are set to 31. What is the maximum values on your TV? Mine max out at 127.


Thanks.


----------



## Compass




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jpl3447* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have two TVs in the same room too. I put a piece of electrical tape over the IR spot on the TV that was least used. Then I manually turn it on and off. That is the only thing I could think of.



Ha. I also have two sets in the same room, and that remote problem has plagued me as well. It's not such a big deal when I'm only watching one (the remote is on top of the TV so I have to get up to turn it on anyway -- at that point I just point it real close to the sensor to avoid turning on the other set). The main problem comes when I have both TVs on at once and want to turn down the volume on just one. This is very tricky to do without getting up.


----------



## Mr.Bitey

Ive found the service code for the KV-32LS65AUS - seems its radically different to the other codes in other models! - no wonder I was having a bugger of a time getting into the service menu.


Its a 2 step process. 1 - set the remote control into service mode, then set the tv into service mode (nice heh).. Seems MOtvGuy like thinking is trying to make it more difficult. Now wonder the poor tech I dragged out (under warranty) couldnt get into the service mode!


Step 1: Remote Control to Service Mode

1.1 Press the VCR/TV/DVD button until the TV LED lights

1.2 Press and hold the YELLOW button for approx 5 seconds until the TV Light flashes quickly

1.3 Press 99999 all 3 LEDs should light (on the remote)

[Remote Control now set to service mode]

1.4 To Put the Remote back into NORMAL Mode, repeat 1.1 - 1.2 then enter 00000 (instead of 99999 to enter service mode) - all 3 LED's should light

[Remote now in Normal Mode]


Step 2: Put TV into Service Mode

2.1 Set Remote to Service Mode (as above 1.1 - 1.3)

2.2 Turn TV on with Power Switch

2.3 Press the VIDEO STANDBY button on the REMOTE TWICE (its the one on the top LEFT), TT____ should now be displayed on the TV screen (and some other stuff)

[TV Now set to Service-Mode]


2.4 Press MENU on the remote to display the service-menu

2.5 use the UP/DOWN arrows to navigate up and down in the menu

2.6 Press the RIGHT arrow to enter into the required menu item

2.7 Press the MENU button on the remote to go back

2.8 Note: Turn TV OFF to really QUIT the service mode


Hope this helps!


EDITED: The service manual wasnt quite right - but this is tested on my set and works 100%










Cheers,

Bitey


----------



## prefontainenike

hey guys, ive been searching the forum/this thread for an hour, i cant seem to gt out of the test pattern that loaded while i was tweaking in service mode. any ideas???


thanks for all the help,


Chris


----------



## louisepalmer

hello guys,


Sorry for my english, i'm french and i never found a forum on this subject.

So i found some very interesting thing here but not on my problem.


I just buy two sony CRT TV, One is KV28FX60 and i discover that i HATE 100 HERTZ !

My old sony 50 hertz has a very beautiful image...


My question is if it's possible to disable 100 hertz and all other digital feature to increase image quality. In a word, i want to switch to standard 50 hertz.


I know how to enter service mode, but it's very difficult to understand all the options.


I hope you have understand me










Your help will be very appreciated.


----------



## Ironkaw

RWetmore,


Thanks for the info. I've read, and learned alot more, and decided to swap my set out for another one. The new one has some mild geometry issues, and I have corrected most of them, but there is one issue that is bugging me. Everything in 16:9 is very acceptable, but when I watch something on regular TV (4:3 480I) it is not wide enough. It's narrow by almost 2 inches. Then if I watch a DVD thats 4:3, it is too wide by almost 2 inches. I can live with it too wide, but the regular TV (4:3 480I) is just annoying. If I change the Horizontal width, it changes in every mode, and to get the (4:3 480I) at the correct width it makes everything else way to wide. Is there a way to adjust the 4:3 width on a 970 independent of the other modes? I saw on the service data chart an option in MID1-2, but these aren't the same on the 970, and the MID1-3 options are different also. Any help would be appreciated.


Thanks ,

Chris


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *prefontainenike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hey guys, ive been searching the forum/this thread for an hour, i cant seem to gt out of the test pattern that loaded while i was tweaking in service mode. any ideas???



Sure. Try the instructions *here* .


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just in passing, I did my 1080i H/V position/size and overscan tweaks using a 1920x1080i test pattern projected by DisplayMate for Windows Video Edition on my PC, connected to my XBR960 from the DVI-to-component output of my PC's ATI Radeon 9800 Pro video card. The ATI Catalyst video drivers had the XBR960 set as a second monitor running at 1080i, 1920x1080 resolution.



I'd be grateful if you could explain how you did this. I'm using the same program and I've got my Nvidia graphics card setup in Dualview mode, with the monitor at 1024x768 and my HDTV (XBR800) at 1080i. Thing is, when I run the program it runs on the monitor and therefore uses it's resolution, so how do you get it to generate a 1920x1080i test pattern?


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doveman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd be grateful if you could explain how you did this. I'm using the same program and I've got my Nvidia graphics card setup in Dualview mode, with the monitor at 1024x768 and my HDTV (XBR800) at 1080i. Thing is, when I run the program it runs on the monitor and therefore uses it's resolution, so how do you get it to generate a 1920x1080i test pattern?



Two different ways will both work.



(1) Reverse monitor #1 and monitor #2, thus making the HDTV your primary monitor. Then the patterns presented by DMWVE will take on the size of your HDTV. When you boot your PC, the HDTV will be your monitor #1 and all apps (including DMWVE) that present full-screen displays will present at 1920x1080.


Of course this approach genuinely makes your HDTV the primary Windows monitor, so all program windows will launch here, etc. Yes, the desktop can be specified to span the combined real estate of both monitors, but the HDTV will definitely be where most things start and stay (when enlarged to full-screen). Takes a bit of getting used to when your keyboard is on the other side of the room and you have to look over at your HDTV which is 15 feet away.



(2) I had previously full-screen captured all of the series of test patterns produced by DMWVE (from every one of its diagnostic/setup groups), using a screen capture utility named Fullshot and having my standard 4:3 CRT monitor set to a desktop resolution of 1920x1080 so that the captured images had the same resolution and dimensions. I captured them to BMP (so as to not lose anything).


If you want (via Settings), Fullshot is smart enough to determine the color depth to be used so as to minimize the size of the BMP, so that a B/W test pattern does not require color and at 1920x1080 that would be 1036918 bytes per capture. "Primary color" captures that can be done at 16-bit color depth require 2074678 bytes per capture. "True color" captures (e.g. spectrums) require 32-bit color and take 6220854 bytes. Anyway, I have a complete set of 1920x1080 BMPs stored that exactly duplicates all of the test patterns produced by DMWVE.


These full-screen BMPs can be displayed full-screen (on either monitor #1 or Monitor #2) using any image viewer/browser worth its salt (e.g. ACDSee).



The method I actually used for my 34XBR960 adjustments was (2), because I wanted to be able to sit in from of my usual PC monitor #1 (19" IBM P96 4:3 CRT monitor, running at 1152x864) while sending the 1920x1080 BMP test pattern images (from my sets of screen captures) to monitor #2 (the XBR960) via ACDSee. If you will do this, the resulting flexibility and convenience is significant.


Without having the set of 1920x1080 BMP capture equivalents of the DMWVE test patterns, method (2) wouldn't have been available. Only method (1) would have been possible. I had actually tried that first but didn't like the hassle of having to look over at my HDTV to see the primary desktop and location for windows that got opened when programs launched, while sitting in my computer chair.



NOTE: ACDSee as a product took a steep turn south beginning with version 6, some years back. Each subsequent version (they're now up to 9) gets progressively worse and crappier. I continue to use version 5 for most of my needs, and actually use version 4 (fastest and leanest, while still fully-featured) for my most demanding volume image browsing, viewing, and processing applications (backed up by Photoshop, of course, for the real work).


----------



## doveman

Thanks for the detailed explanation. (1) is pretty obvious but I doubt I would have thought of it. doh!


My TV's right next to my PC but it's still awkward trying to view it whilst sitting at the PC. It would actually be easier if it was further away but at right angles to my PC chair. I can see why you'd want to go with (2). My brother occasionally screws up his Dualview and ends up with his desktop on his TV which is in the opposite far corner and it's a nightmare helping him to fix that over the phone!


I'm going to see if my TV looks like it needs much tweaking using (1) for now. Fingers crossed!


----------



## DSperber

Quote:

Originally Posted by *doveman*
I'm going to see if my TV looks like it needs much tweaking using (1) for now. Fingers crossed!
If, as expected, your set has non-zero and possibly excessive overscan, be prepared for your use of the HDTV as monitor #1 causing some operational problems initially (i.e. until you can adjust your overscan).


Depending on your desktop layout, if you've always only had one monitor then your taskbar will have been at the bottom of monitor #1 and at least some of your desktop shortcut icons will probably be in a vertical line down the left edge of monitor #1. Once you make monitor #1 your HDTV with its overscan, a good portion of the taskbar will appear to be "cropped out". And that left vertical edge of desktop shortcuts may similarly be in at least a somewhat awkward location very near the left edge of your screen.


Furthermore, if your set really requires convergence adjustments and has geometry issues as well, the pixel-precision you're probably used to on your PC's monitor and that is not going to look pretty on your HDTV will no doubt surprise you. Just don't forget it's all about getting the DMWVE patterns to your HDTV so that you can do your own service menu adjustments as possible.


But then that's what this project is really all about... to get test patterns onto your HDTV at 1920x1080. You will find, when you're "done", that the test patterns looks better than the Windows desktop, because any non-zero overscan directly affects the desktop which extends to the very very outer edges of the screen (assuming 0% overscan), whereas the DMWVE patterns are "TV-tolerant" and assume that you will end up with maybe 1-2% overscan which is perfectly acceptable and appropriate for watching broadcast HDTV.


I'm attaching the two primary test patterns (in BMP form), if you want to try them first (or alternatively). One is the cross-hatched overscan/geometry/linearity test pattern, and the other is the SMPTE colorbar pattern with Pluge (to adjust brightness).

 

overscan.zip 9.4423828125k . file

 

SMPTE_colorbars.zip 14.6826171875k . file


----------



## doveman

Thanks for the images. I was suprised how awkward it is trying to use my TV as the primary display. My taskbar actually stayed on my monitor for some reason, which made it slightly easier to run programs but the flickering on the TV (due to the display being interlaced I guess) makes it hard to look at for any length of time.


I heeded your advice and avoided ACDsee and found a free program called FastStone Image Viewer which allows me to display the images on the secondary display. With the cross-hatch pattern, are the dashed lines around the edges meant to be at the edge of the screen, because they're about 1-1.5" in at the moment. There's actually a non-dashed line that is visible on the right hand side and if I adjust the MID settings I can get the same at the top and bottom of the screen, but not on the left. Apart from that, it looks about right.


I've noticed that when I have the PC in Clone mode, the desktop almost fits on the TV. If I open Windows Explorer full-screen, in the Status bar at the bottom it shows "8 objects" and the 8 is chopped off. There's a slight curve inwards in the bottom left and top right corners as well.


I have to admit I was suprised how unclear text is on the TV. It's considerably better in 720p mode but still compares rather badly to my monitor.


I'm mainly going to be using the TV to watch videos from my PC (connected by DVI) or with my Xbox (composite at the moment but I'll be getting a component lead). I do intend to get a Freeview box with a component ouput but I'm waiting to see if a HD one comes out, so at the moment I'm stuck with using my VCR's tuner into a PAL->NTSC converter, which does look rather crappy but I can live with it.


----------



## jsimon9633

I have a sony kv-32hs500


I was trying to do the convergence and now my screen shows 3 color lines across the top middle, red green and blue


i tried resetting all things in service mode but its still there


also the screen seems like wa too bright like a spotlight shining on it in the midle and corners


can anyone help?


----------



## versus21

Just hooked up my cpu to my screen and my god I never knew my screen was so jacked up! Text gets blurry when not in the middle of the screen and there is a bulge on one side that makes all the windows distorted.


Went into the service menu but didn't know what the heck i was doing!


So a service manual for the Sony KV-32FS100 would be GREATLY appreciated!!

Or at the least the default service menu settings.


Looked all over the net looking for it but couldn't find if you would have a copy of it pm me please.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doveman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With the cross-hatch pattern, are the dashed lines around the edges meant to be at the edge of the screen, because they're about 1-1.5" in at the moment. There's actually a non-dashed line that is visible on the right hand side and if I adjust the MID settings I can get the same at the top and bottom of the screen, but not on the left. Apart from that, it looks about right.



The solid line surrounding the rectangle is the outer edge of a 16:9 pattern at 1920x1080. If you adjust things (first background raster, then foreground image, as has been described in detail in this and other threads) so that the solid outer edge of the rectangle is visible at all four edges of the screen, you now have 0% overscan. Anything where this outer edge is not visible is some non-zero positive overscan. And You certainly don't want "negative overscan", where you've got it so that the outer solid lines of the rectangle are "indented" from the edges of the screen. You want that outer rectangle at the extreme outer edge of the screen (at least to start) for 0% overscan.


As you can tell by counting the horizontal and vertical boxes in the pattern, the interior dotted rectangle defines 10% overscan (since there are 2 out of 20 boxes eliminated in the horizontal dimension by this inner dotted rectangle, and about 1.4 out of the 14 boxes eliminated in the vertical dimension). If you adjust things so that the dotted lines are visible at the four outer edges of the screen, you have just adjusted for 10% overscan.


Anything in between, not able to see the solid outer rectangle but with the dotted lines somewhat "indented" from each edge of the screen, is something less than 10% overscan. Halfway would be 5%, etc. Shooting for 1-2% is reasonable, in my opinion (at least that's where I've gone).


What's important of course is to get all four edges of your screen to display the same thing... some uniform constant overscan (say 1-2%) all around the four edges of the screen. That is your goal. Anything asymmetric is incorrect and your true TV images will be cropped asymmetrically.


The tiny dots in the center of each box are excellent tools to determine if you have a convergence problem (e.g. if they're not pure white, but you can easily see red, green, or blue "spray") and exactly what portion of the screen requires attention (and potentially, a Sony service call for magnet work). Same with the perfectly horizontal and vertical lines of the pattern, which are obviously supposed to be perfectly horizontal and vertical.


If they're not (e.g. if they are non-linear or bow up at the ends near the bottom of the screen, or if they are non-linear or bow down at the ends near the top of the screen, or if they are non-vertical or curved near the left and right edges or in the center) well this is what the pattern is for... to direct your attention and service menu tweaks (or magnet work for the professional) where your screen needs it.


----------



## NextGen

I've been calibrating my xs955 for a while now, and it is finally starting to look pretty remarkable thanks to all the information provided here. However, my TV is being used for games and not for over the air broadcasts, and because of this I'm having some "internal conflicts" as to what the correct settings are for me. I am beginning to realize that some of the "enhancements" recommended here may not be desirable for people like me. I am arriving at this conclusion based on image quality when playing video games when using some suggested settings. Mainly anything that enhances sharpness tends to introduce more pronounced "jaggies" in many PS2/Xbox games. When using a more natural setting, such as completely disabling any form of velocity modulation, the image is more clear to my eyes. Even high quality DVD's look better as there is far less 'grain' in the image.


Does this conclusion make sense or is it just my lack of understanding on how things work? In other words, should I see some noise or grain in high quality image content like movies or video games? My way of thinking is this, even though there are things "lost" in the digital transfer of film to DVD there isn't any loss when it comes to game consoles because they are rendering everything internally on the fly as you are seeing it. Only cut scenes would be using some form of re-compressed video, correct? If so, what are the codes or settings I should use to disable all image enhancements in my set? Perhaps I can start from 0 and work my way up to suit my tastes.


And one last thing, is there a way to "flash" or update the operating system in a Sony TV? I noticed the XS955's, and probably many other sets, have a software version number. I'd like to know if there are any bugs or issues with specific versions as I would think the latest version would be the best to use.


----------



## disco277

Hi All,


First post... I need help with my KV-32HS510. I have a Dish 942 hooked up to it and it works great on 480p and on 1080i. However, when I switch to 720p the color is too green. I think I have the whole service manual, but I can't tell where to change the color settings for 720p or where to change the color settings at all for that matter.


Any help would be very much appreciated!


----------



## NextGen

Here are some of the service code settings I have decided on for now. My 34xs955 is used mainly for playing video games so I am trying to achieve the most accurate and least artificial image from the display of the game console. Based on findings from the members here I've tried to set up my tv the most transparent and least artificial way possible. The settings below either normalize or disable enhancements and offsets. Some offsets are needed, but I've tried to track down and eliminate any need for sharpness and/or enhancements.


I still get noise when watching movies, but real time content like games are amazingly clean and crisp.

*Video*

Mode = Standard

Picture = Max ( I may go back to 48 since it is the default value)

Brightness = 31

Color = 31

Hue = 0

Sharpness = 29 (default)

Color Temp = Off

Color Axis = Monitor

*3D-COMB*

VAPG = 0

VAPI = 0

*2103-1*

SCON, SCOL, SHUE = 7

YDLY = 0

SHAP = 0

SHFO = 0

PREO = 0

AFCG = 0

CDMD = 0

SSMD = 0

ATPD = 0

DCTR = 0


*2170P-1*

SBRT = 32

RDRV= 63

GDRV = 33

BDRV = 33

RCUT = 63

GCUT = 16

BCUT = 32

DCOL = 0

WBSW = 0

*2170P-2*

YLMT = 3

*2170P-3*

SYSM = 3

VMLV, VMCR, VMLM, VMFO, VMCL, SHOF = 0

SHFO = 1

PROV = 0

F1LV = 0

LTLV = 0

LTMD = 0

CTLV = 0

MIDE = 63

VM, VMH, VMM, VML = 0

*217OP-4*

**** = 7

SCOL = 7

SHUE = 31

SPIO, SCLO, SHUO = 7

RYR, RYB = 14

GYR = 6

GYB = 4

GAMM = 0

GAMS = 7

GAMR = 3

GAMG = 3

GAMB = 3


With GAMM = 1 I have GAMS = 7, GAMR = 0, GAMG = 0, GAMG = 0, and GAMB = 0.

I use GAMM = 1 for HD content.

*21704-P (continued...)*

DCTR = 0

APED = 0

DSBO = 7 (Appears to be some kind of offset value, 7 is middle? I use different settings for HD sources so you will just have to experiment)

ABLT = 0

ABLM = 0

DPSQ = 0

BLK = 0 (so you can manually control DSBO)


*MID5*

POP = 63

Everything else = 0


*3DNR*

#34, #45, and #61 @ 15


Thanks to Kentech, NightWatchman, Dsperber, and all the others that posted settings and findings. All of the information has really helped in my quest for great picture quality.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks to Kentech, NightWatchman, and all the others that posted settings and findings. All of the information has really helped in my quest for great picture quality.



You're welcome!


BTW, if I haven't mentioned it before, add'l kudos to Ken for the excellent index of links added to the first post.


----------



## Mathesar

Does anyone know of a service menu adjustment that might fix distortion from the built in tv speakers? For example every time I turn on my Nintendo Wii the menu intro sound distorts noticeablely through my XBR960's speakers, Ive tried lowering the bass and treble ,even enabled Steady Sound but nothing works, it distorts even if the volume is very low so it looks like I'm looking for some sort of "Input gain" adjustments, does anything like that exist? I sometimes hear distortion when playing other consoles such as Xbox360 but its not very common, it never happens when watching DVDs or Cable channels , Thanks in advance.


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The solid line surrounding the rectangle is the outer edge of a 16:9 pattern at 1920x1080. If you adjust things (first background raster, then foreground image, as has been described in detail in this and other threads) so that the solid outer edge of the rectangle is visible at all four edges of the screen, you now have 0% overscan. Anything where this outer edge is not visible is some non-zero positive overscan. And You certainly don't want "negative overscan", where you've got it so that the outer solid lines of the rectangle are "indented" from the edges of the screen. You want that outer rectangle at the extreme outer edge of the screen (at least to start) for 0% overscan.



Sorry for not replying sooner, I've not had much time to tweak in the last few days. Whilst I think I understand the theory of adjusting the background raster and then the foreground image, I'd be grateful if you could tell me if what I'm proposing makes sense.


As I'm starting from a position where I can only see the outer solid line on the right-hand side of the screen, I'm thinking why not adjust the foreground image with the MID settings first so that I can see this line on all four sides, and then adjust the raster to extend this line to the outer edges of the display.


To complicate matters, no matter what I do (on the TV at least), I'm unable to see the outer solid line on the left-hand side of the screen. Is it possible that the PC output is responsible for this and I'd need to adjust something at that end to fix this?


In the circumstances, all I can think to do is to adjust the raster so that the dashed line is at the edges of the screen and then adjust each side in by the same amount, until I reach the point where the left-hand side no longer benefits from any further adjustment.


Sorry if I'm being dumb


----------



## redheadguy2001

first off i have a 36xs955

i have been dinking around with fixing the scan and i ran into a problem...


i used the mids to twink the 480i and the everything else, however


when viewing 720p the imagine is small in the middle of the screen and doesnt fill the screen, its like watching it on a 30inch tv on my 36, anyone have any idea how to fix what i did?


----------



## gp-se




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *redheadguy2001* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> first off i have a 36xs955
> 
> i have been dinking around with fixing the scan and i ran into a problem...
> 
> 
> i used the mids to twink the 480i and the everything else, however
> 
> 
> when viewing 720p the imagine is small in the middle of the screen and doesnt fill the screen, its like watching it on a 30inch tv on my 36, anyone have any idea how to fix what i did?



I have a similiar issue with my 30" HS420


my digital cable is perfect (1080i\\480p) - HDMI

my video 6 DVD player is perfect (480p) - Component

however my ps2 -component video 5 doesn't fill the screen.

I looked at the thread for adjusting overscan however on the hs420 the mid options are different so I can't get it right either.


----------



## gp-se




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here are some of the service code settings I have decided on for now. My 34xs955 is used mainly for playing video games so I am trying to achieve the most accurate and least artificial image from the display of the game console. I'm very happy with the look of my games now, especially higher resolution ones like GT4 or Xbox360 stuff. 480i and 480p games are a tad 'soft' but I still feel this is more accurate as there are less dot crawl issues, higher detail, and just more clarity overall. I can see details and special effects in games that I never noticed before, and textures are much more believable now. The presence of the dreaded jaggies are GREATLY alleviated to the point that even some of the worst offenders look good now.
> 
> 
> Many of these settings should look familiar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *2103-1*
> 
> SCON, SCOL, SHUE = 7
> 
> YDLY = 0
> 
> SHAP = 0
> 
> SHFO = 3
> 
> PREO = 0
> 
> 
> 
> *updated*_(Further reading revealed that the "2170P-1" settings below are what RWetmore ended up with, and they work much better than the first settings I posted. I can see the subtle differences in skin tones from person to person, even on regular antenna broadcasts, and games like Gears of War that have subtle use of color really look lifelike and amazing.)_
> 
> *2170P-1*
> 
> SBRT = 31
> 
> RDRV= 63
> 
> GDRV = 33
> 
> BDRV = 33
> 
> RCUT = 63
> 
> GCUT = 34
> 
> BCUT = 32
> 
> DCOL = 0
> 
> *2170P-3*
> 
> SYSM = 3
> 
> VMLV, VMCR, VMLM, VMFO, VMCL, SHOF = 0
> 
> SHFO = 1
> 
> PROV = 3
> 
> F1LV = 0
> 
> LTLV = 3
> 
> LTMD = 0
> 
> CTLV = 0
> 
> MIDE = 63
> 
> VM, VMH, VMM, VML = 0
> 
> *217OP-4*
> 
> **** = 7
> 
> SCOL = 7
> 
> SHUE = 31
> 
> SPIO, SCLO, SHUO = 7
> 
> RYR, RYB = 14
> 
> GYR = 6
> 
> GYB = 4
> 
> GAMM = 0
> 
> GAMS = 3
> 
> GAMR = 4
> 
> GAMG = 3
> 
> GAMB = 3
> 
> *MID5*
> 
> POP = 63
> 
> Everything else = 0
> 
> 
> I'm still applying some tweaks and adjusting a few things here and there, but the settings above seem to work great on all sources through input 5 component. 480i-1080i are all set up the same in regards to the settings I posted. I'm actually using the exact _DRV, _CUT, and _YR settings RWetmore decided on and they work wonderfuly.
> 
> 
> Thanks to Kentech, NightWatchman, Dsperber, and all the others that posted settings and findings. All of the information has really helped in my quest for great picture quality.
> 
> 
> 
> *edit*
> 
> 
> Ok, one more thing I forgot to mention. Now guys, don't be alarmed here when I post these settings. I know they may seem incorrect, but from my many months of experience with this set this is how everything ended up.
> 
> *Video*
> 
> Mode = Standard
> 
> Picture = Max
> 
> Brightness = 31
> 
> Color = 31
> 
> Hue = 0
> 
> Sharpness = Min
> 
> Color Temp = Off
> 
> Color Axis = Monitor
> 
> 
> My reasoning behind those settings are this:
> 
> I want as much signal to come from the video output of the console as possible, to do this I set the Picture setting to Maximum and sure enough, with the 'enhancements' bypassed or disabled, I don't get blooming/bleed from the colors. I may go back and re-confirm my findings with the Picture settings though as it was only recently that I arrived at the correct service mode settings. Maybe I'm not understanding this user control correctly? *Comments or suggestions on this are welcome*
> 
> 
> The same logic goes behind the Sharpness settings, I want the most accurate representation of the original source material, in the case of a game console it is rendering the images as you see them in an uncompressed manner; so, I ended up with no sharpness enhancements as they tend to augment the original source. I can confirm this works for me as the bridge fighting stage in DOA4 now allows me to see individual leaves in the far distant background clearly, and textures on clothing and objects look more accurate and real. I can even see individual particle effects from the water splashes and distant waterfall very easily now.
> 
> 
> As for Color Temp, I'm not absolutely positive as I have to take an educated guess as to how good my gray scale is. It appears good though, as I don't notice any/few discoloration or patches of mismatched color anywhere. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but it appears pretty close to my eyes. Again, I'm no expert.
> 
> 
> I'm still having a few minor issues with geometry, convergence, and focus. They aren't 100% perfect but very very good, and I am pleased with them.
> 
> 
> It seems strange that I could use many of the same settings others here are using for their set, as each tv is different. However, my thinking is that since each of us are correcting the geometry, setting the raster, fixing the convergence, and so on, this fixes are making our televisions much more "alike" so it would only make sense to use the same settings in other areas.




I just copied these settings to my 30" HS420 and they work great!


----------



## Jedah Doma

I haven't heard to much talk about the 970. Anyone have some good settings on the 970 that work well.


P.S. Or are these settings pretty much universal for any newer Sony set?


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gp-se* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just copied these settings to my 30" HS420 and they work great!



Good to hear they helped out.

I've made some slight changes to some other settings that seem to have helped as well. These are kind of experimental, but seem to help the overall range of white to dark.


I've updated the codes, which mainly involved adding some new ones.
Here is the link to the previous post. .


My next stop will be experimenting video noise reduction settings .


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jedah Doma* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I haven't heard to much talk about the 970. Anyone have some good settings on the 970 that work well.
> 
> 
> P.S. Or are these settings pretty much universal for any newer Sony set?



The 970 has a very different user menu set-up and I'm not sure how well it's SM dovetails with the other Sony crt SMs.


For example, on the 970 in the user menu, the "ticker" that shows how much one is turning up or down settings like brightness, the ticker goes to 100 ticks. On the other models it goes to 62. The has proven challenging for some who copy values over straight across w/o accounting for the different scale.


I realize this is just for the user menu, but it still matters since when one is done making adjustments in the SM, one still has to deal with the user menu. Because the 970 has such a different User Menu scale, I have to wonder how well its SM dovetails with the other models. As far as I know, the 970 is the only model with the 100 tick ticker.


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jedah Doma* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I haven't heard to much talk about the 970. Anyone have some good settings on the 970 that work well.
> 
> 
> P.S. Or are these settings pretty much universal for any newer Sony set?



In my experience with these TVs, actual numerical values of settings usually differ significantly from set to set in order to achieve the same levels.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gp-se* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a similiar issue with my 30" HS420
> 
> 
> my digital cable is perfect (1080i\\480p) - HDMI
> 
> my video 6 DVD player is perfect (480p) - Component
> 
> however my ps2 -component video 5 doesn't fill the screen.
> 
> I looked at the thread for adjusting overscan however on the hs420 the mid options are different so I can't get it right either.



Just a suggestion, but you could try out some different games, something like Valkyrie Profile 2 should fill the screen properly, other games like GT4 may not as the developers used black pixels in the 5% overscan area. I ended up keeping a 5% overscan on my set and most PS2 games 'just' fill the screen.


----------



## Jedah Doma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just a suggestion, but you could try out some different games, something like Valkyrie Profile 2 should fill the screen properly, other games like GT4 may not as the developers used black pixels in the 5% overscan area. I ended up keeping a 5% overscan on my set and most PS2 games 'just' fill the screen.



Plus VP:2 is a simply amazing game. Good suggestion!


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jedah Doma* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Plus VP:2 is a simply amazing game. Good suggestion!



It's also one of the absolute hardest games to "clean up" as the image quality is far from the best, and is one extremely picky game when it comes to color/greyscale brightness and gamma. You really need to have your set nicely calibrated to make the game look good. Even on my set it's a tad pix-elated and jaggy, otherwise it is simply gorgeous.


----------



## TV addict#2

wanted to give thanks to KenTech for the thread full of info and tools

got the 1/2" black gap at the right edge of my 2.5 year old kv-34910xbrs' screen lined out,much better

long live AVS Forum


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> According to the MID1 data chart, (charts are frequently cryptic), the column that applies to 480i seem to be Single - Others - Others, and the default value is 0! I checked my TV with a 480i feed from a DVD on V5, and MDHP is, indeed, set to 0.
> 
> 
> At the column level, I don't quite get the "Normal" / "Others" distinction. "Single" does seem to refer to a screen-filling main display, and VGA is for a computer-generated video source connected thru HDMI, as far as I can tell from several charts.



This is rather confusing. I've been tweaking my TV (34XBR800) using my PC's output via DVI @ 1080i, and despite the MID1 settings not referring to 1080i, they definitely affect it.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the MID1-3 groups, be sure to get the values for width and especially height exactly right, as these values control (as I have discovered) the precise sampling of the video for display. Get the vertical ones wrong, and the image quality will be compromised! There are exact ratios between the particular video-line count and the internal digital representation of that video _that have to be maintained_.
> 
> 
> The critical values are DHAR, DVAR, MDHS, and MDVS in MID1; in MID2, DRHS and DRVS (if relevant); and in MID3, VDHS and VDVS. The correct numbers are the ones in the data tables.



The 34XBR910 service code list shows a value of 240 for MDHS. Mine was on 217 and when I tried to set it to 240 the display went blank at 239!. MDVS is set to 128, which is closer to the list's 135 (or 130) but after what you wrote, I'm rather concerned that my current settings might be adversely affecting the picture quality. although I don't see how I can use the settings in the list on my set.


MID3 #1 VDHS (720p) was set to 161. I've changed that to 117 as per the XBR960 table.


The MID3 #4-11 were already set correctly except for #5 which is set to 72, whilst the table indicates 50, although it does show 72 under Expansion). What is Expansion?


Am I doing the right thing, or do I need specific values for a 34XBR800?


----------



## vazel

The D-CONV settings don't seem to be doing anything on my 30HS420. I can have the settings on the lowest or highest and it doesn't have an effect in convergence on the pattern I have on screen. Does anyone know what's up?


And the 30HS420 doesn't seem to have the LANDING group. Are there other settings on the 30HS420 that do the same thing as the settings in LANDING?


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vazel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The D-CONV settings don't seem to be doing anything on my 30HS420. I can have the settings on the lowest or highest and it doesn't have an effect in convergence on the pattern I have on screen. Does anyone know what's up?
> 
> 
> And the 30HS420 doesn't seem to have the LANDING group. Are there other settings on the 30HS420 that do the same thing as the settings in LANDING?



What pattern are you using? IMHO, a grid of thin white lines on a black field is the best pattern. White has all three colors present in equal intensity and the black background allows you to see the misconverged areas.


Beam landing adjustments are physical, yoke adjustments on sets without LANDING service menu entries.


----------



## vazel

I am using white lines on black. When I adjust focus in 2170D-4 it effects the convergence but I can't improve anything without not only making convergence in another part of the screen worse but also making things blurry.


This is the pattern I'm using.


----------



## DSperber

Quote:

Originally Posted by *vazel*
This is the pattern I'm using.
I use this similar pattern, which also has a 10% overscan rectangle inscribed (dotted lines inside of outer solid line rectangle) as well single pixel white dots centered within each square of the cross-hatch pattern. These tiny dots are very helpful in working out a compromise between vertical and horizontal convergence settings. Its very easy to see the colored "glow" around that dot if convergence is off in any direction.


But remember that only HORIZONTAL CONVERGENCE issues can be adjusted through the service menu tweaks. VERTICAL CONVERGENCE problems can ONLY be adjusted by magnets installed on the back of the picture tube... something that only an authorized technician should do.


If you have no way to get either a perfectly converged pattern all over the screen or at least an acceptable compromise all over the screen, it may be necessary to get a service technician to pay you a visit (free from Sony, if your set is still under warranty) to do some permalloy magnet work (standard Sony part kit, assuming your technician knows what he's doing). Even though in theory you should be able to manipulate horizontal convergence through the service menu, if you can only get one side of the screen adjusted properly and the other side goes out then magnets can again be helpful in addressing that problem (to get the entire screen to respond in unison when adjusting horizontal convergence all over the screen through the service menu).

 

overscan.zip 9.4423828125k . file


----------



## vazel

D-CONV just doesn't seem to be working. None of the red/blue shadows move even a pixel from where they are when I go crazy with the D-CONV settings. I wonder if something I did in another setting in the SM is preventing the convergence settings from working. When I first got my TV I screwed up the SM settings, I was one of those idiots that didn't write down the default settings. Took me forever to get things right.


I also used this dot pattern.


----------



## corlay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vazel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> D-CONV just doesn't seem to be working. None of the red/blue shadows move even a pixel from where they are when I go crazy with the D-CONV settings.



me too.

I also have a 30HS420.


Convergence was one of the very last things about the SM that I attempted to tweak, after getting everything else just right.


I started with the setting for center of screen, and just started cranking it up and then down, just to see the affect on the picture. Except there was no affect - I couldn't perceive any change. I tried this first @ 480p (progressive scan from source), and then @ 480i.I then started crankng other settings in the group up & down. Still No perceptible change. So, I just set everything back to the original settings, and shrugged it off.


Would love to get a definitive answer though.




--

corlay


----------



## doveman

@DSperber


I had a tinker with the SMPTE colourbars image you gave me and was rather surprised to find that I had to turn the User Menu colour setting up to Max-2 to tune the colour as suggested in DMW (with only the blue gun on). Any idea why I have to set it so high?


As a reference, I started with the settings Nextgen posted, and after setting the colour I've had to set Picture at about 14 and Black Level at 18, and my hue's on the midpoint default (don't know if that's what he meant by 0. The max for the UM settings on my set is 63).


On a related note, it would seem that whilst using static images to set the B&W and colour levels is useful for getting the desktop/games to look good on the TV, this doesn't necessarily translate into good looking video, as Windows uses different levels for the deskkop and the video overlay. If this is the case, what do people use to set the levels for watching video?


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doveman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I had a tinker with the SMPTE colourbars image you gave me and was rather surprised to find that I had to turn the User Menu colour setting up to Max-2 to tune the colour as suggested in DMW (with only the blue gun on). Any idea why I have to set it so high?



Don't know.


Actually, the real reason I provided it was for the two Pluge bars on that pattern (in the lower-right black section) used to adjust brightness on the XBR960 (turning down brightness until the two Pluge bars just match the black level of the background and thus become invisible as unique bars).


I saw a comment on this pattern way back when I first posted the two test patterns that talked about the "color space" of the SMPTE color bars in my pattern being intended for a PC monitor rather than for the XBR960. This was in response to my comment on the alternative color bar pattern that had been posted earlier, which on my PC monitor I felt looked pale and washed out and unattractive. I was told that the pattern was intended for the XBR960 and not for a PC monitor, because of its different "color space".


So, although I must confess I don't quite understand the theory, I will admit that the colors in the two different color bar patterns were very different when viewed on the two different display devices. Perhaps that's what is causing your unexpected results, because my SMPTE color bars are truly for the wrong color space (if someone else can actually explain what that means and why this might be the case).




> Quote:
> On a related note, it would seem that whilst using static images to set the B&W and colour levels is useful for getting the desktop/games to look good on the TV, this doesn't necessarily translate into good looking video, as Windows uses different levels for the deskkop and the video overlay. If this is the case, what do people use to set the levels for watching video?



Definitely true that the output of a video card and Windows to the XBR960 is quite different from true HDTV programming from a STB, OTA, etc. It seems that while you might adjust to a test pattern, you will probably do some additional fine tuning and adjustments based on actual HDTV content (e.g. the Leno show and SNL are pretty much reference examples of perfect human skin color, so watching them and fine tuning to get the skin color absolutely perfect is a good idea).


Personally, I did not use that SMPTE color bar pattern to adjust my user menu color settings. I used DVE (from 480p DVD input), and then fine tuned while in 1080i mode watching Leno.



NOTE: everybody's tastes and settings are bound to be different, so anyone's particular values can really only be considered a possible starting point for your own adjustments. I consider the color and picture appearance of my XBR960 to be absolutely perfect (and my 34XBR960 setting values for 1080i are significantly different than the partial list of values enumerated previously by NextGen, who has a 34XS955). But then I don't play video games at all, almost never watch DVDs, and almost exclusively watch 720p/1080i from my cable DVR or D-VHS. So my objectives are probably different from those who have game devices as a source.


----------



## DSperber

Quote:

Originally Posted by *doveman*
As a reference, I started with the settings Nextgen posted, and after setting the colour I've had to set Picture at about 14 and Black Level at 18, and my hue's on the midpoint default (don't know if that's what he meant by 0. The max for the UM settings on my set is 63).
I decided to reorganize my papers on which I had recorded my user/service menu settings for my 34XBR960. I had numerous full and partial versions of PDF's and XLS's originally posted by KenTech (and possibly others) quite some time back and decided I would make an exhaustive enumeration of what my set looks like and tabulate it in a new spreadsheet (based on an original from KenTech).


So while it is no more useful nor valuable than anybody else's, I'm making my new spreadsheet available for reference.


I went through the complete service menu while tuned to discrete sources at 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i and recorded the four complete sets of values. The 480i input was through S-video and the other three inputs were through component video.


Then I also sent 720p and 1080i via firewire, and again went through the complete service menu and recorded those two complete sets of values. Turns out the service menu calls firewire "ATSC", which is also what it calls its own internal ATSC tuner, and I'm guessing that's what it might also call HDMI input. In other words the values I gathered for the digital input versions of 720p and 1080i (via i-Link) were different than the component video versions of those same resolutions but the same as the values shown when using the internal ATSC tuner. And I'm guessing the HDMI digital input version of those resolutions will show similar values in the service menu (but I didn't try that experiment since I don't use HDMI input on my set).


Anyway, the six columns of data values in the spreadsheet are titled with a heading that conveys whether the input at that resolution was from "C" (component video) or "D" (digital, i.e. firewire and ATSC tuner in my current effort). The complete set of values for C-1080i is shown in that column. The values in the other five columns are blank if there is no difference from the C-1080i column. Only different values for the other five columns appear as non-blank. I thought that would make reading easier.



NOTE: my set was NOT adjusted by an ISF technician. I had some work done by a Sony factory technician (who didn't do very much), a second local authorized Sony service person (who mostly worked with magnets to eliminate my convergence and curvature problems, and then spent some time in the service menu), and finally myself... using DVE at first and then fine-tuning just by using actual broadcast programs whose color I knew was perfect. As such, the large majority of my values are very likely "untouched as it came from the factory", with only the crucial ones reflecting my own work. And of course the geometry values are unique to my set because of the magnet work done.


Nevertheless... you can use it for reference while working on your own set. I feel that the picture quality and color my XBR960 produces is remarkable.

 

kd-34xbr960.zip 24.2626953125k . file


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I saw a comment on this pattern way back when I first posted the two test patterns that talked about the "color space" of the SMPTE color bars in my pattern being intended for a PC monitor rather than for the XBR960. This was in response to my comment on the alternative color bar pattern that had been posted earlier, which on my PC monitor I felt looked pale and washed out and unattractive. I was told that the pattern was intended for the XBR960 and not for a PC monitor, because of its different "color space".
> 
> 
> So, although I must confess I don't quite understand the theory, I will admit that the colors in the two different color bar patterns were very different when viewed on the two different display devices. Perhaps that's what is causing your unexpected results, because my SMPTE color bars are truly for the wrong color space (if someone else can actually explain what that means and why this might be the case).



That's an interesting suggestion, although I must admit I don't understand it either. I'll try some of the other color patterns from this thread. I think my monitor is somewhat knackered anyway, as video playback is ridiculously dark, but that's what the TV's for and the monitor's fine for PC use.



> Quote:
> Definitely true that the output of a video card and Windows to the XBR960 is quite different from true HDTV programming from a STB, OTA, etc.



Sorry if I wasn't clear, but what I was trying to say is that the output from the video card appears to differ when it's outputting overlay (full-screen) video playback, so tuning the TV to the desktop (including applications such as ACDSee) doesn't result in a good image when playing video.


Also, whilst a DVD like DVE should do fine for tuning to PC DVD playback, I'm not sure if it will be suitable for tuning to AVI,WMV, etc playback as the different codecs involved might affect things.


Anyway, this is more suited to the HTPC forum. Thanks for your help adjusting the geometry of my TV, although I still need clarification on KenTech's statement that the MID3 values for horizontal and vertical size MUST stay at the defaults as that throws a spanner in the works for me.


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So while it is no more useful nor valuable than anybody else's, I'm making my new spreadsheet available for reference.



Thanks for providing that. I'm looking forward to trying your settings on my TV.


As you said before, gaming and video are quite different, and as I'm going to be using my TV for both, it's great to have your settings as a reference as well as Nextgen's.


----------



## Jedah Doma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doveman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for providing that. I'm looking forward to trying your settings on my TV.
> 
> 
> As you said before, gaming and video are quite different, and as I'm going to be using my TV for both, it's great to have your settings as a reference as well as Nextgen's.



I also use mine for gaming so when I get around to fixing stuff in the service menu I'll post them up here.


----------



## justinblair2

Guys i got a bit of a problem, i was tweaking in the service menu, actually i was just inputting some of your guys tweaks for reference, and i completely wrote down everything i changed and its normal values, so something starts to look funny , and i just stop and input all my normal values back in. But now it seems if the tv is way to dull. I upped the color in the normal settings and it seems to correct it but the color didnt use to have to be that high? Any thoughts ?

Also, i was doing this on input 4 with component cables *360*, could i just be able to plug it into input 5 and get the defaults and make corections if i accidently messed something up? One more question, say if i had my video set to pro and tweaked it in the service menu would the values be different if i were in standard mode? Last one i promise, is there anyway to return the set back to the defaults it was given to me?


My set is the xbr 970


Update I found that really the only problem seems to be that the color in the regular menu, when set at its default is way to low *51 is blakc and white* I dont really recall it being likes this until i started tinkering. if that helps lock into the problem.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *redheadguy2001* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> first off i have a 36xs955
> 
> i have been dinking around with fixing the scan and i ran into a problem...
> 
> 
> i used the mids to twink the 480i and the everything else, however
> 
> 
> when viewing 720p the imagine is small in the middle of the screen and doesnt fill the screen, its like watching it on a 30inch tv on my 36, anyone have any idea how to fix what i did?




The 955's are completely different from the 960's, at least mine is. All of my settings for horizontal and vertical size are in the MID 2 groups of codes. What I did was adjust ASPT and SCRL of my 480p?, 720p,1080i content to match that of my 480i settings, then I adjusted Vert and Horizontal via the 4 *MID 2 codes (DHHP and up)* I can't recall the exact name of the other 3 as I just got done painting and the tv is unplugged.


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Update: Note(this pertains *only* to 480p/720p+1080i and working with/looking at "color" when working In SM ) ..... *Do* note that when you are working in SM, (well, this is the case on my set(KD34XBR960 manufactured Jan 05 at least), when 480p, 720p or 1080i signals are input, the proper "color matrix" for ATSC/NTSC(or 480p vs 720p/1080i/etc) sources is not selected "automatically" as occurs if you are operating the set normally outside of service mode. Therefore, when looking at "color" from within the SM, you need to, for example set(or verify) 2171CXA/MTRX=0 for 480p NTSC sources(such as from DVD), and 2171CXA/MTRX=1 for 720p/1080i ATSC sources for proper color decoding to occur, otherwise what you'll see color decoding wise while working in SM will be *inaccurate* for 480p/720p/1080i sources. Note that Only 480p/720p+1080i signals are effected, and that MTRX is a temporary setting which is not saved.
> 
> :end update



On my 34XBR800, when looking at colour *outside* the SM in a 1080i PC->DVI screen, this auto matrix switch isn't working. I can clearly see the difference when I change CXA2151/MTRX to 1, but outside the SM it stays on the 0 matrix. Any ideas on what I can do to fix this?


----------



## jjmilo

Has anyone with a 34XBR910/960/970 who also owns a Blu-Ray player used the built in test patterns on the Sony Film bd DVD's ? If so what results have you achieved with the 1920 x1080i monoscope overscan,convergence and crosshatch patterns.


----------



## NextGen

Just wondering if anyone knows what the ENHA settings are on the 34xs955's?


I stumbled across them the other day and they all seem to be some kind of horizontal enhancements or "settings" that effect sharpness and focus. As of right now I have:


HSHP = 0 and it was previously set to 50. It looks like Horizontal Sharpness and that is also how it acts. I've set it to 0 to disable it for the time being.


HSFO = 15 (Highest Setting) This appears to be either Focus or Focus Offest. When set to 15 my focus is insanely focused, especially after adjusting the 2170P-4 focus paramaters.


Seems like many of my convergence problems are minimized as well.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doveman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On my 34XBR800, when looking at colour *outside* the SM in a 1080i PC->DVI screen, this auto matrix switch isn't working. I can clearly see the difference when I change CXA2151/MTRX to 1, but outside the SM it stays on the 0 matrix. Any ideas on what I can do to fix this?



Interesting ... .... I don't really have any ideas .... Suppose I might start to see if you can control or "fix" the "colorspace" as output from the PC's video card/etc to either match the (presumably) NTSC colorspace apparently being used, or, perhaps a even better solution might be to find a way to ensure the correct "info" on the colorspace is being sent to the display so it can "interpet it correctly ---


I do notice that, according to the Service Code listings from Service Manual for XBR960 perhaps the MTRX parameter may be handled a little differently for its HDMI input than what I experienced with Component video, as I notice there are 2 columns shown for HDMI in that listing -- one column with a value of "0"(in fine print it says : uTiny/$6D_00 Byte1/Bit6=0 ) and another column with a value of "1" (in fine print for this one it says : uTiny/$6D_00

Byte1/Bit6=1 ). I also of course don't know if there are any differences here invloving the Cxa2151 parameters for the XBR800.


I do know on a couple of occasions at first I could have *swore* the same thing happened to me the first time I looked at it outside of SM via component inputs + 480p (NTSC via DVD player/component video+AVIA or DVE color bars), only to find out later it seemed I must have been hallucinating as it turns out upon checking it again it was(and still is) working OK outside of SM ...


FWIW, so far I've also had no problems with this+it using the correct colorspace outside of SM with 1080i(or 720p) via PC/ATI Radeon X1600 Pro via component connections .. I haven't tried it/picked up a DVI to HDMI cable yet to see what might happen there ...


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do notice that, according to the Service Code listings from Service Manual for XBR960 perhaps the MTRX parameter may be handled a little differently for its HDMI input than what I experienced with Component video, as I notice there are 2 columns shown for HDMI in that listing -- one column with a value of "0"(in fine print it says : uTiny/$6D_00 Byte1/Bit6=0 ) and another column with a value of "1" (in fine print for this one it says : uTiny/$6D_00
> 
> Byte1/Bit6=1 ). I also of course don't know if there are any differences here invloving the Cxa2151 parameters for the XBR800.



I notice that Dsperber's Excel code list for his 34XBR960 shows the MTRX parameter set to 1, whereas on my XBR800 it defaults to 0. If his 960 actually defaults to 1 when in the SM in 1080i then that appears to be different to your (and my) set. Note that this is the value he recorded when using 1080i via component, although he also tested with Firewire (which he's guessing is the same as HDMI) and didn't record any change in the MTRX value.



> Quote:
> I do know on a couple of occasions at first I could have *swore* the same thing happened to me the first time I looked at it outside of SM via component inputs + 480p (NTSC via DVD player/component video+AVIA or DVE color bars), only to find out later it seemed I must have been hallucinating as it turns out upon checking it again it was(and still is) working OK outside of SM ...



I've checked it with Dsperber's colour bar chart and also the colour bars from AVIA and when MTRX is set to 0 the green bar (4th from left, to the left of the purple bar) is a noticeably brighter, garish/fluorescent green than when it is set to 1. If you could check on your set and see whether the green bar is brighter when MTRX is set to 0 or 1 that would be very helpful.



> Quote:
> FWIW, so far I've also had no problems with this+it using the correct colorspace outside of SM with 1080i(or 720p) via PC/ATI Radeon X1600 Pro via component connections .. I haven't tried it/picked up a DVI to HDMI cable yet to see what might happen there ...



Unfortunately my PC can't do component out, although it does composite so I'll see what things look like using that. I tested the AVIA colour bars on my Xbox which is connected via composite (Input/Video 3), and the MTRX setting doesn't affect things at all. I'll do some more comparisons this evening.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Doveman,


Note that At least on my set, I don't think the MTRX parameter holds any signifcance other than as a temporary setting to allow you to manually chose the correct value for the source you are using(On my set at least --- for NTSC 480p the correct value is MTRX=0, for ATSC 720p/1080i the correct value is MTRX=1) *when* you are working in Service Menu --


The correct colorspace(or color "matrix") for the source you're using should be applied "automatically" when you are outside of SM and operating the set "normally". Perhaps This may have as much to do with the output of your source "device" as the display itself ...


Also on my set at least, I've seen no real rhyme or reason to what the value for MTRX "defaults to" when you first enter SM ... Usually seems to be the correct value for the last source(480p, 720p or 1080i) you were using when you were last outside of SM, but If I recall correctly I may have ran into an exception or two.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Doveman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've checked it with Dsperber's colour bar chart and also the colour bars from AVIA and when MTRX is set to 0 the green bar (4th from left, to the left of the purple bar) is a noticeably brighter, garish/fluorescent green than when it is set to 1. If you could check on your set and see whether the green bar is brighter when MTRX is set to 0 or 1 that would be very helpful.



Sending a 480p NTSC source signal(from Avia DVD - Color bars) --- Green bar appears bars "brighter", or more garish/floruescent with MTRX=0 than is the case with MTRX=1, and Magneta appears more garish or "flouresent" with MTRX=1. There is also, for instance noticably more(noticably too much if you've done much of this sort of thing) "blue in the Cyan" with MTRX=1 -- However, MTRX=0 is the "correct" value in this case(with 480p NTSC source signal on my set anyway), and is what results in accurate color balance(including but not limited to AVIA or DVE color tests using RGBS to turn the R/G/B guns on indivdually) for this source given the other color related settings I'm using (such as 14-15-6-4 for 2170P4 RYR~GYB).


If however, I use a 720p/1080i test pattern (such as internal color bars located in the QM section of SM on my set, or a 1080i color bar test pattern via memory stick ), then MTRX=1 is the "correct" value for proper color balance to occur.


Note that I've verified on previous occaisons that the use of the correct Color Matrix for the input source(either NTSC 480p, or ATSC 720p or 1080i) happens "correctly" and automatically "outside" of SM, no matter where I had "MTRX" set the last time I was working in SM.


I have not yet looked at it via a 720p/1080i test pattern via the PC -- It hasn't seemed necessary as I have done comparisions from recordings of MPEG2 transport streams from local broadcast stations(captured via firewire from XBR960's internal ATSC tuner then played back on the PC and output via component video back to the Display), and the color from the "recording" matches what I get from the internal tuner (antenna) "input" perfectly. And, as you may have noticed -- if the incorrect "colorspace" is being used (such as a "wrong" value for MTRX in the SM"), it is quite noticable that the color is well, "wrong" ....



> Quote:
> I tested the AVIA colour bars on my Xbox which is connected via composite (Input/Video 3), and the MTRX setting doesn't affect things at all. I'll do some more comparisons this evening.



I can probably save you some time, there. Note that the MTRX parameter HAS NO effect on 480i/NTSC SD signals, so you won't see any change with MTRX=0 or 1 with signals via composite or S-Video inputs. Those signals aren't processed by the 21x1CXA chip, only 480p, 720p+1080i signals are.


----------



## TVOD

The difference with the green and magenta bars is probably due to the difference in GRB weighting of the SD NTSC/PAL/601 Y' (luma) channel and that in HD's 709. It's ~ 59%/ 30% /11% in SD while in 709 it's ~ 71.52% /21.26% /7.22%. This means that green is much more a part of the HD luma channel than the SD.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just wondering if anyone knows what the ENHA settings are on the 34xs955's? . . . HSHP = 0 and it was previously set to 50. It looks like Horizontal Sharpness and that is also how it acts. I've set it to 0 to disable it for the time being.
> 
> 
> HSFO = 15 (Highest Setting) This appears to be either Focus or Focus Offest. When set to 15 my focus is insanely focused, especially after adjusting the 2170P-4 focus paramaters.



I'm having trouble locating these parameters in my service-code listings. What code-group did you find them in? In other words, exactly how can one navigate to these parameters in service mode? Theoretically your 34XS955 should be covered by the listing I have, but who knows -- maybe firmware changed in late production.


----------



## doveman

Nitewatchman


Thanks for the clarification about MTRX. I did understand that it was only a temporary parameter for use in the Service Menu, but I thought that MTRX 1 was used (automatically, in normal operation) for 480p/720p/1080i and that MTRX 0 was used for 480i.


Thanks also for checking the colour bars with the two different MTRX settings. It seems that for some reason, my set is NOT switching to the correct colour space when dealing with 720p/1080i signals via DVI from my PC (outside the SM). I've checked and can confirm that the Magenta and Cyan bars look as they would if MTRX=0.


Probably the easiest thing for me to try is to get a memory stick and see if that causes the set to switch properly. I intend to get a component lead for my Xbox and I know that will allow me to run Xbox Media Center (XBMC) at the higher resolutions but I'm not sure if that will necessarily allow me to display a 720p/1080i image at the correct resolution.


I don't have any experience with a MS and the TV manual indicates that there are certain directory/filename conventions that have to be observed for it to work. When loading the jpegs from my PC to the MS, what names do I need to use?


I presume I can use the 1920x1080 colour bar that DSperber provided and resize it to 480p and 720p resolution and put all 3 copies on the MS for testing purposes.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVOD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The difference with the green and magenta bars is probably due to the difference in GRB weighting of the SD NTSC/PAL/601 Y' (luma) channel and that in HD's 709. It's ~ 59%/ 30% /11% in SD while in 709 it's ~ 71.52% /21.26% /7.22%. This means that green is much more a part of the HD luma channel than the SD.



Yes, I think so too. Excellent info.


Concerning Doveman's reports of what he has observed when not in SM : I suppose what I'm wondering more than anything else is if it's possible his PC video setup may, for some odd reason, be sending(transcoding to) 601 colorspace with HD/1080i via DVI when the display is (presumably) "expecting" a 709 HD colorspace to be used for 1080i(or 720p).


Quickly doing a little googling I can't find anything specific concerning that, but it seems there may be some concern about some upconverting DVD players, and whether or not they are transcoding to the 709 HD "colorspace" values "expected" by HD display.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Doveman,


Looks like today several of us checked this thread and posted within a minute of each other







..



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doveman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It seems that for some reason, my set is NOT switching to the correct colour space when dealing with 720p/1080i signals via DVI from my PC (outside the SM). I've checked and can confirm that the Magenta and Cyan bars look as they would if MTRX=0.



Or, As I mentioned in my response to TVOD above ... Perhaps instead its possible that your PC Video via DVI is sending 601 (NTSC) colorspace values to the display for 720p+1080i rather than the expected 709 HD colorspace ....


I'd think one might *assume* that with any given HD display it would seem logical HD video should be sent to the display with the 709 HD "colorspace" values ..... But, then again I wonder if the same assumption is as likely to be true concerning any given PC monitor that may be attached to your DVI output and used to display HD(or SD) video ... If not, again I'm just guessing and speculating and I really have *no* idea but perhaps, in some cases there are good reasons for say, a PC video card to transcode from the HD "colorspace" to NTSC 601 colorspace for output, even though HD is being output .... If so, it seems however there ought to be some way for the user to change it via software (or perhaps via windows Registry key/etc) ...


Also -- It may work that way(I don't know and have no way to tell for sure), and the way MTRX works within SM it's easy to think it does ---- But, I don't know if it's so much the set "switching" to using the correct colorspace as it perhaps is the set "expecting" and therefore "using"(in a sense) 709 colorspace for HD(whether the "correct" values are there from the source or not), and 601 NTSC colorspace for SD in a "hardwired" sort of way when not working in SM.


I don't know, and again - hopefully someone with more experience with this issue can chime in, as I'm mostly just stabbing in the dark here with my comments as I have no experience with this concerning DVI as of yet or how/if it may vary vs. component HD video(or from the MS) sent to the set -- But -- it seems to me that *perhaps* it may be more likely the PC video setup may not be sending the correct "colorspace" (or, if there is any associated metadata missing which might need to be there to "tell" the display what "colorspace" to use) the set is "expecting" rather than the set itself not "switching" to using the "correct" colorspace ...



> Quote:
> I don't have any experience with a MS and the TV manual indicates that there are certain directory/filename conventions that have to be observed for it to work. When loading the jpegs from my PC to the MS, what names do I need to use?



Can't recall anything specific, but, i can say, for instance, subdirectory\\filenames such as x:\ estpattern\\1440x1080spokes.jpg, or x:\\photoshd\\gcany11.jpg work here ...




> Quote:
> I presume I can use the 1920x1080 colour bar that DSperber provided and resize it to 480p and 720p resolution and put all 3 copies on the MS for testing purposes.



Well --- The only resolution sent from the MS for JPG's(on XBR960 anyway) is 1920x1080 --- a 1280x720, or 720x480 (or say 1366x900 - AR isn't effected) image would only be "smaller"(although you could zoom it or pan using those functions via the MS viewer), on 16x9 display, 1440x1080 would be a 4x3 image centered with pillar(black) bars on the sides.


It will work for 1080, however, and judging from my results, I fully expect on your set it will use the correct colorspace for HD (in other words I expect you'd get the same results outside of SM via MS as you would using MTRX=1 when you are within SM )... I've been quite busy as of late and haven't had much time to experiment with any recently posted test patterns/etc, but I expect it would work with the pattern you mention, and I can say it worked that way for me with the "color" JPG (DVE "like") test patterns Ken Posted earlier in this thread.


--------------------


In any case, let us know how it goes and what you find out!


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd think one might *assume* that with any given HD display it would seem logical HD video should be sent to the display with the 709 HD "colorspace" values ..... But, then again I wonder if the same assumption is as likely to be true concerning any given PC monitor that may be attached to your DVI output and used to display HD(or SD) video ... If not, again I'm just guessing and speculating and I really have *no* idea but perhaps, in some cases there are good reasons for say, a PC video card to transcode from the HD "colorspace" to NTSC 601 colorspace for output, even though HD is being output .... If so, it seems however there ought to be some way for the user to change it via software (or perhaps via windows Registry key/etc) ...



You may have a point that if using the PC's DVI port to drive a 2nd PC monitor it would be correct for it to operate in 601 colorspace (I confess to having no idea, I'm just guessing here!). Having said that, the driver for my graphics card has a tick option for the 2nd display/DVI port 'Treat display as HDTV' which I've obviously ticked. When this is ticked, a further option appears offering the choice of 480p/720p/1080i TV format, and I would expect the latter two to cause the card to send the metadata/operate in the 709 colourspace.


Another thought that occurred to me is that, even if the DVI output is set to 720p or 1080i, maybe it only switches to the 709 colourspace when HD video (720p/1080i) is actually being played. Again, this is a complete guess and I don't even know if it's possible but it would account for static test images or AVIA DVD patterns displaying in the "wrong" colourspace. A reason why this might make sense is that that Windows desktop and games are probably not designed to be shown in HD colourspace and so would look wrong.


I'll ask on the Nvidia forum to see if anyone knows anything about this and see if I can find a suitable HD colour bar test pattern.


It's probably completely unrelated, but I should mention that I had to set 2170P-3 #14 UCOF=7 (max) for the DVI input. This was after tuning the TV to AVIA using my Xbox via composite input (at UCOF=2), which resulted in User Menu settings:

Picture: 25

Brightness: 18

Colour: 34

Hue -1/30/+1 Red (not quite sure what the convention for describing this is yet).


Thanks for the MS info. Sounds fairly straightforward and a 1080i image is all I really need to try. Might be a few days before I get a chance to try it as I'll have to visit a friend who's got a MS slot on his PC but I'll keep you all updated.


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justinblair2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Guys i got a bit of a problem, i was tweaking in the service menu, actually i was just inputting some of your guys tweaks for reference, and i completely wrote down everything i changed and its normal values, so something starts to look funny , and i just stop and input all my normal values back in. But now it seems if the tv is way to dull. I upped the color in the normal settings and it seems to correct it but the color didnt use to have to be that high? Any thoughts ?
> 
> Also, i was doing this on input 4 with component cables *360*, could i just be able to plug it into input 5 and get the defaults and make corections if i accidently messed something up? One more question, say if i had my video set to pro and tweaked it in the service menu would the values be different if i were in standard mode?



It's possible that you lowered UCOF (2170P-3 #14 on my XBR800) so you could check that and try turning it up, although as far as I know UCOF is mode AND input dependent, so if you only changed it for PRO, Standard should still be as it was.


----------



## jameasson

hi,

i got the xbr970 recently

and adjusted the horizontal and vertical service menu settings so the whole screen fits perfectly. but when i pop on my xbox 360 on the bottom of the screen theres a verry small portion (probally 1/2 inch) that i can see the picture but its blurry when i move my character. is there a setting in the service menu where i can correct this or any recommendations?

thanks in advance

james


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doveman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Another thought that occurred to me is that, even if the DVI output is set to 720p or 1080i, maybe it only switches to the 709 colourspace when HD video (720p/1080i) is actually being played. Again, this is a complete guess and I don't even know if it's possible but it would account for static test images or AVIA DVD patterns displaying in the "wrong" colourspace. A reason why this might make sense is that that Windows desktop and games are probably not designed to be shown in HD colourspace and so would look wrong.



I thought about that a little as well .... I don't know with 100% certianity, either -- but, I would hope not, in fact I don't even see how that would "work" very well ..


For instance, you could be displaying Windows Desktop (or any other graphics "originating" from the PC) on a PC monitor, a "plain old" NTSC analog TV, or a HDTV -- and, it seems to me the colors "should" be the same on all those displays, regardless of the native resolution/etc. of the source "material". In other words, in this case I'd think to "fit" any standard required for the video to be displayed properly via any given "standard" or on any given display device (VGA, XVGA, VESA, NTSC, or HD display), any necessary standard/etc required should/would need to be supported handled by the video output device and/or display hardware.


Or, to look at this another way ... A 1920x1080 MPEG2 HD stream(or 720x480 from say, a DVD) displayed on my PC monitor(at whatever resolution) should(and does seem to, pretty much) have the same "colors" as it does on a HD display at 1920x1080i .... Same thing with a JPEG image displayed on PC monitor running at say, 800x600 vs. using the MS on the Sony at 1920x1080i ....


----------



## DSperber

Quote:

Originally Posted by *doveman*
Thanks for providing that. I'm looking forward to trying your settings on my TV. As you said before, gaming and video are quite different, and as I'm going to be using my TV for both, it's great to have your settings as a reference as well as Nextgen's.
I've spent some more time on my spreadsheet for the 34XBR960 (making it prettier, more readable, and most importantly more accurate based on further research with i-Link, HDMI, and ATSC) and am again making it available.


I've also reversed my original notion that showing fewer values (i.e. only those which differ from the C-1080i column) would make it more convenient to reference. I've decided to populate all cells in all columns, but applying color to those cells which differ from the C-1080i column values in the same row. Furthermore, separate highlighting colors are chosen to indicate 1080i, 720p, or 480p/i, making it very easy to see where the differences are.


I've also added a new column to show the RANGE of possible values for each item. In addition, when a value in a cell is other than the default (according to my edition of the Sony Service Manual ) I now show the default value enclosed in parentheses following the actual current setting value. Single numbers in a cell mean that the value is still the Sony default. This makes it very easy to see which items are still sitting at Sony-provided defaults and which items have been changed during tuning/tweaking (and by the two Sony technicians who worked on my set during its first few weeks of life in my home).



As it turns out, the i-Link and ATSC sources DO display the identical service menu settings values. In fact both show up in the service menu with a caption of ATSC, leading one to believe that both inputs are referencing the same single set of values. However the two sources are unique in that they have separate user menu settings memories.


But, as it turns out, the HDMI input is SEPARATE from i-Link/ATSC. It has its own unique set of service menu settings values. In some instances values for a given service menu item are different for HDMI vs. the corresponding i-Link/ATSC value.


Consequently, this new version of my spreadsheet shows two new separate columns for HDMI input at both 1080i and 720p resolutions. The "D-1080i" and "D-720p" columns on my old spreadsheet have been renamed to "i/A-1080i" and "i/A-720p" on the new spreadsheet, and pertain specifically to i-Link and ATSC.



Finally, I did a slight adjustment to geometry while I was gathering all of this data. I'd been bothered for some time by some bowing on the left and right sides at the top and bottom of the screen, shown most obviously when a score bar is at the top of the screen (e.g. in a football game) or when a "crawl" is present at the bottom of the screen. The curvature is also visible when viewing an OAR movie where the black bars on top and bottom are in marked contrast to the movie itself, and the imperfection from totally linear top and bottom edges of the image are distraction.


Anyway, I did come up with a new compromise of adjustments to VPIN, NSCO (in 2170D-1), and some matching adjustments to HPOS, UCP and LCP (in 2170D-2). The results are very satisfying, with even the onscreen graphics from the XBR960 itself (e.g. DISPLAY) which are supposed to be rectangular and linear now appearing much more straight and oriented more rectangularly than they were before. These somewhat different item values are reflected in this new edition of the spreadsheet.



Again, you're welcome to do whatever you want with this spreadsheet... including copying it and then editing it with your own values, if for no other reason than that it is in a very useful format and presentation.

 

KD-34XBR960.ZIP 29.5263671875k . file


----------



## justsc

You have done an outstanding job with this spreadsheet!


Thank You.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've spent some more time on my spreadsheet for the 34XBR960 (making it prettier, more readable, and most importantly more accurate based on further research with i-Link, HDMI, and ATSC) and am again making it available.



This is an excellent, excellent resource! THANK YOU for the trouble you've gone to and for posting it.


Psst . . . Do you know what NextGen is talking about, quoted in my message a few posts above? (ENHA, HSHP, etc. for his 34XS955)


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Psst . . . Do you know what NextGen is talking about, quoted in my message a few posts above? (ENHA, HSHP, etc. for his 34XS955)



No idea. But then my experience is confined to the XBR960 and the Service Manual I purchased (along with the combined knowledge of this forum and specifically this thread).


From what I've seen, according to all of the previously available spreadsheets and PDFs (from which my current version was obviously derived) for XS models and XBR models these new items have never been mentioned before. Of course it's possible his set is either older or newer than the publication date of the service data sheets we've been looking at for reference.


For example, in my edition of the DA-4 Chassis manual (version 9-965-965-05, latest revision date 2/2005) I show a group of items for the XBR960 in the 2170P-4 group (UPIC, UBRT, UCOL, UHUE, USHP, UTMP) that theoretically appear between SHUO and RYR. And yet, my set's actual firmware does not have those items. In contrast, my set contains the new group HDMI (with three items) right after the DCRV group, but this group is not documented at all (although it appears that the INP item in this group is a 0,1 item: 0=no HDMI cable connected, 1=HDMI cable connected).


So who knows?


----------



## doveman

DSperber,


Many thanks for making your spreadsheet even more excellent.


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Or, to look at this another way ... A 1920x1080 MPEG2 HD stream(or 720x480 from say, a DVD) displayed on my PC monitor(at whatever resolution) should(and does seem to, pretty much) have the same "colors" as it does on a HD display at 1920x1080i .... Same thing with a JPEG image displayed on PC monitor running at say, 800x600 vs. using the MS on the Sony at 1920x1080i ....



I stumbled across this thread just next door









http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi.../t-675384.html 


There's some links to some interesting pages in this thread. At the bottom of this page, it demonstrates what a picture looks like when it's filtered through the wrong matrix

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/S...omaticity.html 


and this one shows the results of filtering a colour bar pattern through the wrong matrix.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=32137 


I get the impression that what happens is the source (eg HD DVD player) is meant to look at the material and see whether it's SD or HD. Then it takes the material and converts it, using the relevant matrix, from whatever format it's in on the disc, to whatever format is used by the chosen output connecter. When the TV receives this, it then has to convert it to it's "native" format (but it may go through other conversions before this, depending on what processing is being used on the TV).


Probably it's only with internal (tuner/MS) sources that the TV has to select and use the relevant matrix.


I still want to find out what hardware/software on the PC is responsible for doing this. To be consistent with other displays, I would have thought it also has to filter HD material through the 709 matrix and then code the output into RGB values to send to the monitor.


Unfortunately, the friend who I thought might have a MS slot on his PC doesn't, but I think another friend might so hopefully I'll still get a chance to test it sometime.


----------



## Oliver Deplace




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is an excellent, excellent resource! THANK YOU for the trouble you've gone to and for posting it.
> 
> 
> Psst . . . Do you know what NextGen is talking about, quoted in my message a few posts above? (ENHA, HSHP, etc. for his 34XS955)



From my notes:

34XS


VERSION = 1st SM screen

3D-COMB

2103-1


2170P-1

2170P-2

2170P-3

2170P-4


2170D-1

2170D-2

2170D-3

2170D-4

2170D-5

D-CONV

LANDING

CXA2171

MID 1

MID 2

MID 3

MID 5

DRCMFV1

ENHA------->0-HSHP, 1-HSFO,2-HPOR,3-HLTL,4-HLTM,5-HAPL,6-HAPA,7-HCTL,8-HCTM

AUDIO

SNNR

3DNR

DRCV

HDMI

OP

QM (blue)

QT (blue)

ID


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm having trouble locating these parameters in my service-code listings. What code-group did you find them in? In other words, exactly how can one navigate to these parameters in service mode? Theoretically your 34XS955 should be covered by the listing I have, but who knows -- maybe firmware changed in late production.



I wondered that too, about the firmware changes. There are quite a few settings that are different on mine from what you and others have posted. For instance I cannot find the correct service codes for adjusting the size of a 4:3 pattern for the normal mode. It just doesn't seem to exist. I do not have the MID2 DR values anywhere on my set. And I sure would like to know what all the different SNNR values are for.


As Oliver posted the ENHA settings are right before you get to AUDIO on my set, up there past the MID5 settings. I would highly recommend others to try adjusting the HSFO value before attempting a hands on focus pot adjustment. I have absolutely no need for any form of sharpness after doing the adjustment.


----------



## shaddix

as far as overscan adjustments go, how exactly am i supposed to get the entire image on the screen if i am not allowed to adjust the values in MID3


----------



## TomPiltoff

Hmm....I need some help. I own the KD30XS955 and I'd like to improve my picture quality as much as possible, but I'm terrible, terrible with numbers. Just looking at those charts makes my brain hurt. Could anybody provide some very simple instructions to make even very basic improvements on my set via the service menu?


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TomPiltoff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmm....I need some help. I own the KD30XS955 and I'd like to improve my picture quality as much as possible, but I'm terrible, terrible with numbers. Just looking at those charts makes my brain hurt. Could anybody provide some very simple instructions to make even very basic improvements on my set via the service menu?



What if you goof making a change?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TomPiltoff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmm....I need some help. I own the KD30XS955 and I'd like to improve my picture quality as much as possible, but I'm terrible, terrible with numbers. Just looking at those charts makes my brain hurt. Could anybody provide some very simple instructions to make even very basic improvements on my set via the service menu?



That's easy...

Stay out of the service menu, buy a calibration dvd like "Digital Video Essentials" and tweak your TV from the menu settings. If your TV has bad basic settings you will be amazed by what can be done her.


If that is not enough - tough it up and read the numbers, there is no way around those, if you want to tweak from the service menu.


----------



## jpl3447

There is a learning curve involved. All the info is in here at the beginning. It took me about a month of studying before I went into the service menu.

Don't feel bad... as the time goes by and if one keeps reading and printing out stuff to compile into a notebook (service menu charts and parameters, tips and tricks, other user discoveries) then it will become easy.


----------



## KenTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What if you goof making a change?



Well, that's really helpful, Glen.


This is a help forum--a do-it-yourself forum--not an instill-fear forum. There are other forums for those other purposes. Anyone who reads _here_ knows already that one can screw up big-time, and there are folks _here_ who can encourage and help. Fostering paranoia is not welcome. Informative cautionary instruction is.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaddix* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> as far as overscan adjustments go, how exactly am i supposed to get the entire image on the screen if i am not allowed to adjust the values in MID3



Need more info. First, what model is your set?


Then, assuming you have one of the CRTs we typically discuss here, why would you not be able to get into MID3? Is the MID3 group not present?


If you have an older model XBR (e.g. XBR800) you might need to use the MID1 items rather than MID3. The item names are slightly different but they accomplish pretty much the same thing, insofar as moving the image around and resizing it in the horizontal and vertical dimensions.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, that's really helpful, Glen.
> 
> 
> This is a help forum--a do-it-yourself forum--not an instill-fear forum. There are other forums for those other purposes. Anyone who reads _here_ knows already that one can screw up big-time, and there are folks _here_ who can encourage and help. Fostering paranoia is not welcome. Informative cautionary instruction is.



It is still a valid point, Caution, the wrong adjustment in service menus can damage a TV. Being well informed is the goal, everyone needs to understand the risk. There are those who, no matter how much information they have, should avoid DIY. Not everyone is a DIY'er, no matter how hard they might try. However, like in the stock-market, if you can afford the risk, go for it.


----------



## shaddix

I have an 36" hs420


Dsperber I have used what you have written earlier in the thread to adjust my set, however I have also read in this thread in a post by kentech to not adjust the settings in MID1-3 because it screws something up. I would link to the post but i can't post links since I have fewer than 5 posts.


Using only the geometry the 2170D-1 or w/e the groups are that have the geometry adjustments i am unable to get the overscan where I want it, I find the image is too large and the only way to resize it is with mid1-3


So I suppose my post is more directed towards kentech in how do you go about adjusting overscan without modifying the mid3 values?


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaddix* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have an 36" hs420
> 
> 
> Dsperber I have used what you have written earlier in the thread to adjust my set, however I have also read in this thread in a post by kentech to not adjust the settings in MID1-3 because it screws something up. So I suppose my post is more directed towards kentech in how do you go about adjusting overscan without modifying the mid3 values?



I don't recall anything being posted previously by Kentech or anyone else regarding not using MID3 as part of the overall 2-part adjustment process for geometry and overscan for fear of "screwing something up".


And that seems impossible to me anyway, since it is definitely a 2-part process... the 2170D sections for adjustment of the vertical and horizontal components of the background raster (similar to the "canvas" in Photoshop), and then the MID3 adjustments (for 720p/1080i as I recall) for the vertical and horizontal components of the foreground image (similar to the "image" or "layers" in Photoshop) on top of the background raster.


If your HS420 has a working MID3, you should utilize it to complete the whole geometry/overscan adjustment sequence. If the HS420 works differently and it's actually MID1 that you need to tweak (I have no firsthand experience with the HS420 in any size), well then use that group. But on the XBR960 use of MID3 is definitely part of the scenario.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dsperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't recall anything being posted previously by Kentech or anyone else regarding not using MID3 as part of the overall 2-part adjustment process for geometry and overscan for fear of "screwing something up".




I suspect what he is concerned about concerning the MID3 adjustments involves Ken's observation that adjustment of the MID1-MID3 Vertial Size (such as MID3 VDVS) controls from the factory(or service code chart) values reduces resolution/image quality.


Ken posted some of his observations on this here :


Post # 1730 - Paragraph #3~5 :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post7909446 


Post # 1823 :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...VS#post8036820


----------



## justinblair2

Hey Guys i have the xbr 970 and im gettin some issues with vertical and horizontal placement through the xbox 360. One example is Ghost Recon, there is suppose to be a HUD all around the screen and its almost entirely cut off vertically and horizontally. I've had the vertical adjustment where i wanted it but when watching videos on my 360 there is like a blurring and strechting of the picture toward the bottom, so i set the values back to default. I guess really what im asking here is where could i find the values to set the vertical and horizontal positioning of the screen on a per input basis. I've read through DSperber spreadsheet, but i just cant seem to dial in what im looking for. I feel like i missing something when im gaming because of this loss of picture. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks a bunch


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I suspect what he is concerned about concerning the MID3 adjustments involves Ken's observation that adjustment of the MID1-MID3 Vertial Size (such as MID3 VDVS) controls from the factory(or service code chart) values reduces resolution/image quality.
> 
> 
> Ken posted some of his observations on this here :
> 
> 
> Post # 1730 - Paragraph #3~5 :
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post7909446



Actually, in that post Ken states that we should set the horizontal, as well as the vertical, size settings in MID1-3 to their defaults. He then goes on to suggest doing the same for almost all the other MID1-3 settings.


This also confused me and I too asked for clarification about it recently to no avail, so I'm still none the wiser.


----------



## GlenC

Ken can correct me on this (I haven't been into a XBR960 for a while), but as I remember horizontal and vertical size adjustments:

H/V size adjusted in 2170D-1/2 is for inputs 1-5, 480i Wide Zoom (Base size adjustment, global starting point).


MID2-1,3 - corrects 480i (normal & other modes) for inputs 5/6, YC (S-video), ATSC/HDMI and 480i expand. If I remember correctly, the phase will center the normal 480i image within the 16:9.


MID3-1,3 - corrects for 408p (normal & other modes), 720p and 1080i in the component, HDMI, ATSC inputs.


----------



## doveman

Could someone point me in the direction of a service manual for the XBR800 please.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> H/V size adjusted in 2170D-1/2 is for inputs 1-5, 480i Wide Zoom (Base size adjustment, global starting point).
> 
> 
> MID2-1,3 - corrects 480i (normal & other modes) for inputs 5/6, YC (S-video), ATSC/HDMI and 480i expand. If I remember correctly, the phase will center the normal 480i image within the 16:9.
> 
> 
> MID3-1,3 - corrects for 480p (normal & other modes), 720p and 1080i in the component, HDMI, ATSC inputs.



I'm still unclear as to what the "fear factor" is relating to adjusting MID3.


Starting from either service manual default values or whatever the set is currently sitting at (i.e. from the factory adjusted settings or previous in-home adjustments by you or a Sony technician) small tweaks (i.e. one click at a time) to just four relevant items (VDHP, VDHS, VDVE, VDVS) are seemingly absolutely necessary in order to get the foreground image sized and positioned correctly. And of course the prerequisite steps are adjustments to the relevant background raster size and position using 2170D-1 and 2170D-2, with the MID3 tweaks complementing things.


In my own case, I did initial adjustments using DVE (480p on INPUT5). Subsequently when I had the DVI second head of my PC's ATI Radeon video card connected (1080i on INPUT6, through ATI's DVI-to-component adapter) I did further adjustments using the overscan test pattern from DMWVE (as previously described, and test pattern posted) presented by ACDSee to Monitor 2 (which was the XBR960). I did not do adjustments while selected to any other input than INPUT5 and INPUT6.


As can be seen in my XLS spreadsheet, the current settings for the above four items as shown in the C-1080i column are way different from the "default" values (shown in parentheses), clearly reflecting my own personal adjustments [which obviously are dependent on my own personal corresponding 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 values], and yet I have no harm but rather what I feel to be a perfectly acceptable picture:


VDHP 0-255 80 (107)

VDHS 0-255 252 (240)

VDVE 0-63 9 (19)

VDVS 0-255 140 (135)


It's not clear why my values for 480p (INPUT5) in particular, as well as all other resolutions and inputs do not reflect these same adjusted values if MID3 is supposed to apply to them all, but rather appear to be the same as the service manual defaults. I'd like to get to the bottom of that mystery.


I also have a 1080i D-VHS version of DVE that I've never used, but over the holidays I'm going to do some experimenting with it. Since my JVC DT100U can feed the XBR960 using component, HDMI, and firewire, and can be set to force 720p output or put out native 1080i, I'm going to see how the DVE overscan test pattern looks at other than the 480p/INPUT5 I have used it with. I can also set up my ATI Radeon to put out 720p instead of 1080i, so I can also try my DMWVE overscan test pattern (via ACDSee and Monitor 2) at 720p/INPUT6 and see how that looks.


Hopefully this will give me some understanding as to why only my four crucial C-1080i values in MID3 appear to be non-default.


But the bottom line here is that I don't see how one can't also touch these specific four items in MID3 if you're going to adjust 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 as part of a general geometry/overscan adjustment project.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doveman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could someone point me in the direction of a service manual for the XBR800 please.



I don't believe service manuals are available online from Sony. This isn't the User Guide or other public domain document.


I bought my service manual for the XBR960 for about $38 plus shipping by calling Sony Parts: 1-800-488-SONY (7669). At least I believe that was the number I called.


You'll likely have to buy a service manual for the XBR800 (if still available) direct from Sony, as I did.


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm still unclear as to what the "fear factor" is relating to adjusting MID3.



I have a 34XBR970. I can attest to the problem with adjusting vertical size in MID3. It's been a month since I last messed with it, and I didn't take photos, but next time I get around to lugging my PC upstairs to the TV and messing around in the SM, I'll take some photos so you all can see what the problem is.


If you adjust the vertical size in MID3 (at least on a XBR970, since that's the only TV I have and that's the only one I can say I've seen), it seems to actually ADD extra lines within the image that it draws on the screen, to make the overall image taller. So let's say (and these numbers I'm using are purely as an example) you've got an image that's ten pixels tall. You use MID3 to stretch it vertically so it's now eleven pixels tall. The TV does this by duplicating one of the lines in the image. It can't stretch ten rows into eleven, it can only add another row to the ten rows, by duplicating one of the rows that's already there.


I've seen it on a test pattern with lots of horizontal lines. Again, I'll take some photos next time I've got my PC hooked up and I'll post them here. But this is essentially how a test pattern with horizontal lines appears:


Before vertical size adjustment in MID3:
---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------


After vertical size adjustment in MID3:
---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

======brighter line=====================

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

======brighter line=====================

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------

======brighter line=====================

---------line---------------------------

---------line---------------------------


>


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm still unclear as to what the "fear factor" is relating to adjusting MID3.But the bottom line here is that I don't see how one can't also touch these specific four items in MID3 if you're going to adjust 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 as part of a general geometry/overscan adjustment project.



You are right, it's impossible to center and adjust overscan without the MID2 and MID3 settings. The danger that KenTech has pointed out is that the MID2 and MID3 settings stretches the picture and thereby the scan lines. In the 2170D settings the signal and scan lines are moved as a whole - in the MID settings the signal is anchored in the upper and left side and stretched from the left and from the top.


If you have to do extensive changes in the MID settings you can very easily stretch the picture and the scan lines and thereby get an uneven flow of scan lines acreoss the screen.


When you do use the MID settings, which you will have to do, make sure that it's minimal. And always use a crosshatch signal to make sure that the squares are evenly sized and spaced troughout the screen, and none of the lines are brighter or darker than others.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doveman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually, in that post Ken states that we should set the horizontal, as well as the vertical, size settings in MID1-3 to their defaults. He then goes on to suggest doing the same for almost all the other MID1-3 settings.
> 
> 
> This also confused me and I too asked for clarification about it recently to no avail, so I'm still none the wiser.



Sorry, perhaps someone else can do better job of it, but at this point I don't quite understand why additional clarifcation is required, and I don't know how it could be more clearly stated than Ken stated(as quoted below) in his post # 1730, paragraph #3 :



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the MID1-3 groups, be sure to get the values for width and especially height exactly right, as these values control (as I have discovered) the precise sampling of the video for display. Get the vertical ones wrong, and the image quality will be compromised! There are exact ratios between the particular video-line count and the internal digital representation of that video that have to be maintained.



Now, I will say I don't recall if anyone has observed whether or not the horizontal size adjustments in MID1~3 will compromise resolution/image quality, however it seems to me to be a safe bet it probably would if vertical size adjustments do.


Also, It's not that "stretching" the picture is the issue[update: although I admit, I suppose that is "one way" of thinking of it which isn' necessarily wrong], as I understand it the issue with adjustment from the proper values as Ken explains it would likely result in reduction of resolution.


However, also, obviously, adjusting horizontal size contols in Mid1~3 and not Vertical size controls(without other adjustments being made elsewhere - such as 2170D1 ASPT or VSIZ) would result in improper aspect ratio occuring.


I don't believe anyone has observed any such issues so far with the MID1~3 posistioning controls, however, nevertheless where this issue is concerned I think it might be wise to also use those sparingly, and only if absolutely necessary for proper centering with a specific scan rate/input device/etc.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm still unclear as to what the "fear factor" is relating to adjusting MID3.



It's not as if you're "not allowed" to adjust these settings, I don't think anyone is saying it is going to "damage your set" if you do so ... It's up to *you* if you want to compromise resolution/image quality in favor of a little less overscan/etc ... Isn't it better to be aware of the issue as Ken has observed than not?


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...........In my own case, I did initial adjustments using DVE (480p on INPUT5). Subsequently when I had the DVI second head of my PC's ATI Radeon video card connected (1080i on INPUT6, through ATI's DVI-to-component adapter) I did further adjustments using the overscan test pattern from DMWVE (as previously described, and test pattern posted) presented by ACDSee to Monitor 2 (which was the XBR960). I did not do adjustments while selected to any other input than INPUT5 and INPUT6.



Since adjustments for 1080i, 720p and 480p are input specific (not so much with 480p) you skipped a step by not doing the initial adjustments at 480i. There is also the consideration of what inputs are to be used. You may get a couple inputs looking great, but if you go to another input or scan-rate, there may be issues. There is definitely a hierarchy in procedures when doing a full setup, preferable to severely tweaking one input/scan-rate.


G-Bull, your bright line example shows the results of the image being squeezed beyond the resolution of the screen/raster where image lines are blending together.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But the bottom line here is that I don't see how one can't also touch these specific four items in MID3 if you're going to adjust 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 as part of a general geometry/overscan adjustment project.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You are right, it's impossible to center and adjust overscan without the MID2 and MID3 settings.



Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't understand this, other than perhaps in the context of GlenC's last post. For example for me/my set, It was only necessary to adjust 2170D1/2 controls (and occasional use during adjustments of the blanking shutters in 2170D3) to have :


#1). approx 4% overscan(and I can go to about 3% without any issues involving screen centering or picture size- i.e. any "black" showing up on the edges so to speak) --


#2). Proper aspect ratio,


#3). Very close to proper centering for all used scan rates/inputs - - 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, component inputs/etc.


#4). #1-~3 for all screen "modes" - full/Zoom/etc. (of course, Widezoom is a nonlinear "stretch mode", so that's not exactly quite "proper" aspect ratio). --


All WITHOUT the need to adjust any MID settings ...


Although, I would like an *independant* adjustment of horizontal/vertical size for each of the HD ZOOM, Zoom and "normal" screen "modes".(for KD34XBR960) -- Most importantly and signficantly for HD ZOOM, but although I've looked for it I can't seem to find those, including in the MID controls.


The real, main issue I have with reducing overscan further isn't one which would be improved by adjustments to the MID settings, instead, it involves such issues as the curving of vertial lines at the edges I can't fully compensate for via the various geometry settings, and "artifacts" on the edge of the raster.


However, If I want exactly "perfect" picture centering for all used inputs+devices/scan rates, I would need to make the following slight adjustments to the MID posistining controls(default values on my set in parentheses) :


MID2:


Centering changes :


DRHP (DRC Horizontal posistion) :


480i V5/V6


"Normal" - 155 (153)

"Others" - 119 (120)


480i ATSC :


"Normal" - 154 (145)

"Others" - 117 (108)


CV/YC AND RF :


"Normal" - 151 (154)

"Others" - 115 (117)


DRVP (DRC Vertical posistion) :


480i V5/V6


"Normal" - 35 (37)

"Others" - 35 (37)


480i ATSC :


"Normal" - 35 (37)

"Others" - 35 (37)


CV/YC AND RF :


"Normal" - 36 (37)

"Others" - 36 (37)


---------------------------------------------


MID3 :


VDHP (Video display Horizontal Posistion) :


480p V5/V6 :


"Normal" - 199 (200)

"Others" - 151 (152)


480p ATSC :


"Normal" (left at default may need slight adjustment)

"Others: - 153 (152)


720p ATSC - 119 (117)


1080i ATSC/MS - 87 (85)


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> G-Bull, your bright line example shows the results of the image being squeezed beyond the resolution of the screen/raster where image lines are blending together.



Thanks for the explanation. Alls I knows is when I saw the effect, it just screamed to me "keep these at the factory settings..."


Which sucked a bit because I had used those MID3 settings to trial-and-error my way to a beautiful 3% overscan on all my resolutions (at least through HDMI, which is how I have my HD DVR cable box connected). So I had to pretty much start over without using the MID3 vertical size... c'est la vie, I guess.


But I did make some changes to MID3 horizontal settings. I didn't notice an effect like I did with the vertical settings, but does anybody know for sure whether the MID3 horizontal settings has the same negative effect?


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But I did make some changes to MID3 horizontal settings. I didn't notice an effect like I did with the vertical settings, but does anybody know for sure whether the MID3 horizontal settings has the same negative effect?



G-Bull, first off thank you for posting your observations/findings on this ...


I'm not sure whether or not anyone has been able to observe whether or not the effect is present for adjustment of the MID3 horizontal size controls, but I would speculate that may be difficult to achieve with any certianity from an "observation" standpoint using test patterns/resolution wedges/etc ....


As I noted in an earlier post today, however, it seems to me it may seem logical to assume it may involve the same negative effect, and therefore perhaps it may be wise to avoid changing those if possible ..... But, that's just my opinion of course ...


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's not as if you're "not allowed" to adjust these settings, I don't think anyone is saying it is going to "damage your set" if you do so ... It's up to *you* if you want to compromise resolution/image quality in favor of a little less overscan/etc ... Isn't it better to be aware of the issue as Ken has observed than not?



Overall I certainly agree. But much of what is being "warned" is also very much common sense and visually apparent once you begin to adjust things (one click at a time is clearly the right approach, so you can see very clearly what you are doing to the picture).


There's absolutely no question that adjustments of the image in the horizontal and vertical dimensions open the door to screwing up aspect ratio if you are sloppy, which will make people's heads squat and fat, or tall and thin when live content is displayed. But this should really be quite obvious even when you're doing it with test patterns on the screen.


Also, if you "reveal" too much visual image beyond the scan line resolution something's got to give... and it will obviously be picture quality. No question this whole thing is a delicate process, best addressed one click at a time in any dimension for any item being tweaked. And it's highly likely you will revisit previously adjusted items until you get the "balance" of all of them together just right (at least by your eyes).


Of course that's why using a stationary and appropriate cross-hatched overscan test pattern is also the proper way to go about these tweaks. That way you can attempt to accomplish a uniform amount of overscan at all four edges, thus keeping the 16x9 aspect ratio correct (for 16x9 source) as you make your small adjustments while at the same time not exposing anything beyond the absolute outer edges of the test pattern image. I submit that when you succeed in these adjustments people's heads and bodies will look "human" and in perfect proportion when you actually watch real world content instead of a test pattern, and you will also see uniformly a great deal more real estate around the entire periphery of a scene (e.g. to the right and below the channel logo in the the lower right corner of most shows now) than was likely the case before beginning your adjustments.


Applying common sense will stand you in good stead. A bad picture when you're done says you've done something wrong.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Of course that's why using a stationary and appropriate cross-hatched overscan test pattern is also the proper way to go about these tweaks.



Of course it is. A cross-hatch pattern with Circles is also a good tool to use for the purposes you mention, as well as for checking/adjustment for linearity issues.

[/quote]



> Quote:
> I submit that when you succeed in these adjustments people's heads and bodies will look "human" and in perfect proportion when you actually watch real world content instead of a test pattern, and you will also see uniformly a great deal more real estate around the entire periphery of a scene (e.g. to the right and below the channel logo in the the lower right corner of most shows now) than was likely the case before beginning your adjustments.



Well, I certianly have a different view of this issue than you do. Perhaps I should put this another way.


If you use the MID1~3 vertical size controls during your adjustments, per KenTech's findings image quality/resolution will be diminished ..... And, again, I see nothing wrong with informing folks about this issue - In fact, If it were me, and I was posting any info about these adjustments, I would surely mention Ken's findings on this.


If you can "see" such an issue with any various tests or test patterns(such as resolution wedges/etc), certianly the issue will be there when you're viewing "regular" programming, or output from a PC/etc, as well, whether or not it is particuarly "noticable".


If such a reduction of image quality/resolution is "OK" for you merely because you don't necessarily notice a significant enough issue with it "directly" when you are making such adjustments, or anyone else who decides to utilize those controls, fine, but I must say for my purposes, it isn't "OK" for me - including from a "common sense" perspective, which is why, KNOWING this, I would generally not KNOWINGLY advocate their use as I also know these sets are not necessarily designed for best results with such low overscan as say, 1~3%.


Also, I would point out there is no reason whatsoever to need to adjust the MID controls to achieve proper aspect ratio, or even in most cases acceptable overscan(I can go as low as 3-4% without needing to adjust any MID settings for instance), as everything needed is in 2170D1/2.


----------



## G-Bull

I've been meaning to revisit my overscan/size/center settings, anyway, and Nitewatchman: you've convinced me to see if I can't do it all without touching the size controls in "the MIDs."


Of course I wrote down all my factory settings before doing anything, anyway, so it won't be hard to put everything back.


But, tell me, this self-imposed moratorium on making size adjustments with MID, that doesn't include the MID position settings, does it? Because I HAD to use one of the MID vertical position settings to move the image down (I don't remember which, I think it was in MID3). When I was first making adjustments, I couldn't figure out why I wasn't able to see the top 4% or 5% of the image, even when I used 2170D1&2 size adjustments to make the whole raster small and in the middle of the screen. Turns out the vertical position setting in MID3 was set so that the top part of the image was completely cut off and wasn't even being drawn on the raster! From the factory! I don't know what's up with Sony's quality control, but I think there was some major corner-cutting going on. Don't get me wrong, I do love the PQ of my 34XBR970, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who doesn't have the knowledge/ability/time/patience to go into the SM and set it up right.


>


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But, tell me, this self-imposed moratorium on making size adjustments with MID, that doesn't include the MID position settings, does it?



Not that I'm aware of ... In other words, I don't believe anyone so far has discovered any potential loss of resolution issues via adjustment of the MID posistioning settings .. FWIW, In my case, I currently have made mostly slight adjustments to those, and currently have them set as noted in my earlier post, and I haven't noticed any issues(I can't say I've looked extremely closely for any potential losses of image quality/resolution, either, however), as I like "perfect as possible centering" .....



> Quote:
> Because I HAD to use one of the MID vertical position settings to move the image down (I don't remember which, I think it was in MID3). When I was first making adjustments, I couldn't figure out why I wasn't able to see the top 4% or 5% of the image, even when I used 2170D1&2 size adjustments to make the whole raster small and in the middle of the screen. Turns out the vertical position setting in MID3 was set so that the top part of the image was completely cut off and wasn't even being drawn on the raster! From the factory! I don't know what's up with Sony's quality control, but I think there was some major corner-cutting going on. Don't get me wrong, I do love the PQ of my 34XBR970, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who doesn't have the knowledge/ability/time/patience to go into the SM and set it up right.



Well, perhaps one thing that might be involved with that --- with a NTSC signal, a number of the top lines are used to send information along with the signal, such as Line 21 (601) Closed captioning information which looks like "junk" if you can see to the entire top edge of the "raster" ... ... This info is also sometimes(but not allways) sent via atsc digital when a broadcaster "converts" the analog video to MPEG2 transport stream and sends it as 480i SD, or upconverts their NTSC SD signal to say, 720p and 1080i .... In such cases that "junk" at top of screen is still "embedded" in the ATSC/digital video that results, even though "digital" captioning information is/can also be sent via EIA-708 captions which doesn't embed the info directly into the video signal(which is of course just "bits" in a MPEG2 stream).


I don't recall "exactly" how this looked/works out on my sony, as it's been a while since I've made those adjustments/etc. For example, I think some equipment may automatically "block" that junk at the top of the screen and moves the first line with "no junk" to the top, with no service menu/etc. options available to let you "see what's actually above it" --- In which cases as you might imagine, this issue can be related to how proper screen centering is accomplished for various signal sources as well, especially when it comes to signals originating as NTSC signals with the line 21 captions/etc present ...


However, do Keep in mind, you need to "retract" the "shutters"(which keep the electron beam from striking the sides of the tube - there are both vertical+horizontal "shutters") in 2170D3 in order to be able to see the true edges of the raster. This procedure+info related to it is detailed elsewhere in this thread, and in the service manual as it relates to centering the raster horizontally.


----------



## shaddix

Hmmmmmmm perhaps you guys don't understand how bad the overscan is with MID values on my hs420 set to default.


If I get the 2170D values set with as little overscan as i find acceptable, and then I go change the MID values to default, The overscan is terrible, at least 15% on the top, I always have to move the picture way way down, Even with MID3 setting the picture as low as possible there is still some overscan at the top.


But also one thing,(I may not know what i'm talking about here). Adjusting the 2170D values changes position of the scan lines on the screen. Assuming I'm correct about this, shouldn't adjusting the MID values to center the image properly on the scan lines be optimal?


With my current line of thinking, the only way i can see adjusting MID would be bad, is if you failed to adjust the 2170D first, and left that with 15% overscan on all sides, then set MID to have 4% overscan, You would have too much image crammed into too small a space.


Please correct me on anything that I am misunderstanding


----------



## Nitewatchman

Sorry for the double post on this ...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I was first making adjustments, I couldn't figure out why I wasn't able to see the top 4% or 5% of the image, even when I used 2170D1&2 size adjustments to make the whole raster small and in the middle of the screen. Turns out the vertical position setting in MID3 was set so that the top part of the image was completely cut off and wasn't even being drawn on the raster! From the factory! I don't know what's up with Sony's quality control, but I think there was some major corner-cutting going on. Don't get me wrong, I do love the PQ of my 34XBR970, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who doesn't have the knowledge/ability/time/patience to go into the SM and set it up right.



Another thing ... I should say I've noticed an issue with this that needed correcting on several models(from different manufactuers) of "flat screen" Direct-View CRT ..


All of those sets (including my Sony) shipped with overscan at a whopping high 8~10% or so !!!!! Why would they do that? Well, I suspect in some cases given the vast array of different video sources out there via "consumer devices", and the probably "quick" calibration these sets receive on the factory floor you'd be surprised at how easy it is to get to the "edge" of the picture with say a SD satellite signal and a screen mode that manuipulates aspect ratio in ways similar to "wide-zoom" ...... They probably don't want customers calling and complaining about wavy "black" edges showing up on the edge of the screen .....


Or, perhaps more importantly, they probably don't want folks calling and complaining that the Newschannel/etc "tickers" are being "cut off" at the bottom of the screen ..... If I recall correctly, generally the "safe zone" for broadcasters/cablenets/etc to follow in this regard is(at the least) 5% overscan, but there is no set "rule" on that, including for manufactuers implementation on their sets ....


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> However, do Keep in mind, you need to "retract" the "shutters"(which keep the electron beam from striking the sides of the tube - there are both vertical+horizontal "shutters") in 2170D3 in order to be able to see the true edges of the raster. This procedure+info related to it is detailed elsewhere in this thread, and in the service manual as it relates to centering the raster horizontally.



I accounted for that when I made the adjustments and disabled those shutters first, but the top of the screen still wouldn't appear when I was using an overscan pattern. It took me quite a while to find the correct setting to adjust, mainly because the MID settings were different in my 34XBR970 from what's been documented here about the 960 and HS420...


I didn't know any of that you mentioned about closed captioning, etc. Good to know. But Sony's method of "sliding the image clear off the screen" by 5% or so seems excessive. They could have just cut it off with the 2170D-3 shutters or something. Shoddy final set-up at the factory, if you ask me. Like I said, I really do like my 970, but it really didn't look good when I pulled it out of the box. I've still got some pretty bad vertical convergence issues in the corners that I need to call a service tech to come out (it's off by at least 1/8" to 1/4" in the corners) so I think that Sony is just trying to make the TVs "good enough for most people" and ship them out the door.


shaddix - That does seem unacceptable. You're saying that the factory MID size settings have the image that much larger than the viewable area, so there's that much overscan? Even when you reduce the size with 2170D-1&2, you still can't see the edges of an overscan pattern? Are you reducing (or turning off) the 2170D-3 shutters?


----------



## shaddix




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> shaddix - That does seem unacceptable. You're saying that the factory MID size settings have the image that much larger than the viewable area, so there's that much overscan? Even when you reduce the size with 2170D-1&2, you still can't see the edges of an overscan pattern? Are you reducing (or turning off) the 2170D-3 shutters?



Yes you are correct, with MID values all set to defaults, when I set the 2170D values to show the entire image by setting the height and width to minimum with whatever those hblk and vblk(i forget the exact name) set to 0 instead of 1 you cannot see the entire image, the only way is to *greatly* modify some of the MID numbers


maybe my set is defective ;_;


----------



## shaddix

when i do the 2170D adjustments, i modify the MID values so that the image is massive, to make sure I can see the edges of the raster(? i don't really know what this means >_enter to read then change the values and write them


ahhhhhh sorry for the double post i th ought someone posted after me but i was mistaken D: however this post still does have some merit so i'll leave it ^_^


btw thank you guys for the help, it's a nice christmas present :>


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaddix* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ahhhhhh sorry for the double post i th ought someone posted after me but i was mistaken



No need to apologize, that was my fault ... I posted something not realizing you had made another post, and after reading it(your first "most recent" post), on 2nd thought decided it probably wasn't of much help so I deleted the post ....


----------



## Nitewatchman

Shaddix,


Ok, I'll try to take a stab at this this way, although keep in mind you will likely be able to find better info on some of this by using the thread "index or "TOC o' links" Ken has provided in First post, or by searching this thread for some key words related to your comments :



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaddix* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes you are correct, with MID values all set to defaults, when I set the 2170D values to show the entire image by setting the height and width to minimum with whatever those hblk and vblk(i forget the exact name) set to 0 instead of 1 you cannot see the entire image, the only way is to *greatly* modify some of the MID numbers



2170D1 VSIZ (vertical size) and 2170D2 HSIZ (horizontal size) are the appropriate adjustments for vertical and horizontal size of the image(*and/or the raster*) on my set - including if you want to reduce the size of the image, although you may also need to "retract those 2170D3 shutters" to see absoluetely 100% of the "image".


And, IMO unless there is something vastly different about your model set, even if you *do* decide to use the MID controls to adjust vertical/horizontal size despite the cautions expressed here, it should *still* only be as a *last resort* IMO, and only in a Input/scan rate specific manner if say for instance, the VSIZ/HSIZ adjusment works fine for a 480i signal, but you need something slightly "different" for say, 1080i that you can't "fix" with *any* 2170D1/2 controls ..... Again, that's just My opinion however, FWIW ...


[Updated section follows] :


Also, perhaps I should mention 2170D1 VPOS (vertical posistion) and 2170D2 HPOS (horizontal posistion) are the appropriate, basic image *posistioning* controls, although, at least on my set I do note adjustment of VPOS seems to also slightly effect geometry -- In a manner somewhat similar to 2170D2 PPHA.


2170D2 HCNT is the control used to center the raster Horizontally, there is no equivilent for centering the raster vertically, AFAIK -- It's either "static" vertically or effected by VPOS as well, I don't recall ...


There are also several other controls in 2170D1/D2 which effect vertical size, or vertical posistion, or horizontal size -- Some of these are "geometry/linearity related controls which *just happen* to effect Vertical/Horizontal size as sort of a "by product" of what they do --- Controls such as VLIN, UVLN, LVLN(effects vertical linearity as well as vertical size), or SLIN (effects horizontal size, H Linearity as well as curvature of Vertical lines).


However, one potentially useful control in *some* circumstances that effects Vertical size(and therefore also the "aspect ratio"), but not vertical posistion or geometry -- is 2170D1 ASPT, which is *screen mode specific* (480full, 1080full, Zoom/Widezoom/etc) ... Another effects vertical *posistion* but not vertical size or geometry, also in a *screen mode specific* manner --- that control is "SCRL" ....


Other than the MID controls, I don't think there is a control that allows for input/scan rate or most "screen mode" specific adjustment of horizontal Size or posistion, other than for Widezoom and "others" in the case of HSIZ(horizontal size), and 1080full and "others" in the case of HPOS(horizontal posistion). And, I don't believe any of the MID Hsize/H posistioning controls are "screen mode" specific, only "scan rate" or input specific ...


[end update]



> Quote:
> when i do the 2170D adjustments, i modify the MID values so that the image is massive, to make sure I can see the edges of the raster(? i don't really know what this means >_enter to read then change the values and write them



Hmmm .... Basically, the "raster" is like a canvas if you're painting a picture, and generally(but not allways), the picture you're painting (the image or actual "picture area") will pretty much "fill" the *raster* or the "canvas".


To see the edge of the raster(search this thread for "raster" to find better explanation of what raster is and/or this thread or service manual for how to center it Horizontally or how to "view the edge of it")... in addition to appropriately and temporarily adjusting the 2170P1 AGNG control, and "retracting the shutters" in 2170D3, that would also involve reducing HSIZ (or VSIZ) to see the "edges" of the raster, not adjustment of MID values or making the image "massive" --- in fact, you temporarily need to REDUCE the size of the image(*and the raster*) to "less than" 0% overscan in order to see the edge of the raster .....


*do* keep in mind these sets are really designed to view "TV" programming, with a certian amount of overscan involved, generally 4% or more -- they aren't designed for "0% overscan" in order so you can see every little bit of image on the edges, such as on the sides or top .... Forutnetly, some PC video cards(my ATI Radeon X1600 Pro can do this in a "adjustable" fashion via a function in it's "Catylst control center" software) do have the option of sending an "underscanned" image to a HDTV display so you can set it up to see every bit of "edge" of the image as may be necessary in some cases for gaming or "desktop applications" use .... Although generally speaking, I don't think I'd personally want to use one of these sets as a PC monitor for non-gaming or other than to display graphics on a bigger screen/etc..


If none of that helps .... Another thing I perhaps might want to wonder about/ think about if your having these issues only from output from a PC vs. what your getting from "regular" TV or HD sources or DVD player hooked to the TV, is perhaps you might want to make sure your video card is sending a "properly formatted" signal to the TV, and that the TV is recoginizing it properly .... both aspect ratio wise and say, "screen centering wise", and "resolution format" wise ... For instance, for 1080i HD signal, that would be 1920x1080i @ 30HZ interlaced ...



> Quote:
> btw thank you guys for the help, it's a nice christmas present :>



I hope some of it actually ends up helping you out+Merry Christmas!


----------



## shaddix

thank you for clearing up the input specific/screen mode specific settings, i hadn't understood that before and was just hoping that a change wasn't global to everything when i was making it lol, i have gotten lucky though i think










as far as pc output goes, i have a 9800 pro with a dvi to hdmi cable but i'm not even going to get into the problems that show up when i try that whole bit D:


alright well let me see if i can clarify what i'm thinking here and maybe this will do me good.


the raster controls the scan lines, how many different lines of pixels the electron guns are shooting onto the screen correct? and MID controls the position and size of the actual image being sent to the set in relation to the raster.


so lets say the image being sent to the set is a 1080 image, 1920x1080 pixels, the raster is going to be composed of 1920 horizontal pixels and 1080 vertical ones being shot out by the gun, the actual image is also going to be 1920 horizontal pixels and 1080 veritcal ones. Now hopefully what this accomplishes is that for each line that the electron guns are shooting, there's a line of image to go along with it. Am i correct with this?


now assuming I am correct with this, if the MID default values have the image way off center or distorted, then the default values are what are compromising the image quality? and I need to modify them sot hat the image lines up properly with the raster


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't believe service manuals are available online from Sony. This isn't the User Guide or other public domain document.
> 
> 
> I bought my service manual for the XBR960 for about $38 plus shipping by calling Sony Parts: 1-800-488-SONY (7669). At least I believe that was the number I called.
> 
> 
> You'll likely have to buy a service manual for the XBR800 (if still available) direct from Sony, as I did.



Thanks for the info. I'll try that if I need to.


I've got a PDF for the KD-34XBR2 (which I think I downloaded from here) and I've found a website with some service manuals ( http://electromaniacs.com/ ) and downloaded one for the DA4 chassis, 510 models. Am I right in thinking the XBR800 is a DA4 chassis model as well? If so, how similar are the circuits likely to be?


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaddix* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> if the MID default values have the image way off center or distorted, then the default values are what are compromising the image quality?



No -- assuming your set has the "correct" MID default values it's supposed to have(which *should* be the case), CHANGING those default values(for vertical size particularly per Ken's findings) is what will compromise image quality - (disclaimer) --- unless perhaps newer models of sets work differently than KD34XBR960 or ken's XS955, although I wouldn't expect that would not be the case).


Therefore, it's best(IMO) to Use 2170D1/D2 controls I mentioned in last post to adjust the size/posistioning of the image(not *just* the raster), not the MID values - I think it is best to Leave the MID values at the defaults.


I think you're reading too much into this thing about "the raster" and "the image" being somehow "seperate" things ... They really aren't "seperate" things except in terms of some adjustments that are *possible* which involve moving the image around "on top" of the raster, without moving the raster itself ... such(If I recal correctly, such as 2170D2 HPOS or the MID3 adjustments), and seperating them in terms of "pixels" or "scan lines" isn't really accurate, I don't think --


Lets see if I can put it this way ... The image is "part" of the raster, but the raster can be LARGER than the image(for a simple explanation the video from a 4x3 signal wouldn't fill the raster entirely on a 16x9 set - It's doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the resolution/"pixels" involved in the source image), just like a picture painted on a artist's canvas could fill the entire canvas, or, there could be a bit of a border around it ....


Again, Hope this helps ....


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaddix* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the raster controls the scan lines, how many different lines of pixels the electron guns are shooting onto the screen correct? and MID controls the position and size of the actual image being sent to the set in relation to the raster.
> 
> 
> so lets say the image being sent to the set is a 1080 image, 1920x1080 pixels, the raster is going to be composed of 1920 horizontal pixels and 1080 vertical ones being shot out by the gun, the actual image is also going to be 1920 horizontal pixels and 1080 veritcal ones. Now hopefully what this accomplishes is that for each line that the electron guns are shooting, there's a line of image to go along with it. Am i correct with this?



If I understand where you are coming from here, CRT's aren't "digital" displays, what results on screen isn't "1920x1080" pixels, that sort of thing is only accurate for fixed pixel displays. As it is a topic beyond the scope of this post, I would suggest if you want to understand how CRT displays work, You'll need to do some researching and reading on the subject - Here may be a good place to start :

http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/crtfaq.htm 


But, for instance for the purposes of this post -- dot pitch and, in the case of these sony sets, the apeture grille are important functions of how much "resolution" you get to see "on screen", not how "big" or small/etc. the "Raster" is ...


This may not be entirely accurate as I would think the change in sampling that would occur in the MID processors would perhaps not be a "simple" "Flat" reduction of resolution of the input source signal as my following example illustrates ... but perhaps a good way to look at this might be .... When you adjust the MID Vertical Size to different values from the defaults -- and potentially MID horizontal size controls as well, I'll just assume that's the case for the following --- Per Ken's findings, it is probably *similiar* to if you were "stretching" or "squeezing", say a 1920x1080i source image to some *other* resolution(say, 1600x900 - although you hopefully wouldn't be making that "severe" of an adjustment, and assuming you are perserving proper aspect ratio when adjusting both H+V size. -- That loss of resolution occuring to digital video *before* it even reaches the actual hardware that creates the picture, similar to if you resampled a photo image on your PC with Photo editing software ... Whearas, Adjusting the 2170D1/D2 controls, you aren't *changing* the resolution of the source signal *or* what is displayed via the "scanning lines", in which case the actual resolution being dispalyed is a matter involving dot pitch/etc ....


----------



## Oliver Deplace

Ideally, you'd want to do all the sizing/positioning with 2170D, but it appears that many cannot get by on 2170D alone.


MID vertical size and position changes can subtly degrade the image. The degradation using MID vertical size can easily be seen with a test pattern. Normal program material isn't so revealing. IOW, if you had one with changes and others without, I doubt you'd be able to pick it out of a line-up. But, if your going to lose sleep over it, don't do it.


The degradation using MID vertical position is so subtle as to make it insignificant.


MID horizontal doesn't seem to cause degradation at all.


So, if the image layer is much larger than the raster, you're pretty much stuck with making some changes in MID.


Pick your poison:

1) A subtle loss of resolution that you may not be able to detect.

2) Lose picture info to cropping.


You gotta do what you gotta do.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Deplace* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Pick your poison:
> 
> 1) A subtle loss of resolution that you may not be able to detect.
> 
> 2) Lose picture info to cropping.



A picture is worth a thousand words...


There's nothing to be lost by actually trying some adjustment temporarily by simply tweaking in the service menu and not writing it permanently. Just put it back to what you had (or some other adjusted value) and you're no worse off.


Having nothing to do with any other changes for linearity, convergence, rotation, whatever, why not just see what these do for you when selected to INPUT5/6 while watching 1080i. Ideally a test pattern at 1080i would be ideal, but live content with a crawl at the bottom or scorebar near the top, and logo in the lower right, would also be a reasonable alternative:


VPOS 0-63 28 (26)


----------



## GlenC

Just remember that the adjustment capabilities of the 960 is somewhat like a complex tax return. One change on a schedule can have a ripple effect on the entire return. Starting with a wrong number will cause the the entire chain of entries to be wrong. Adjusting this TV in the SM, especially geometry, is not like doing a 1040EZ!


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> .........the fact that the overscan has been reduced (by increasing the horizontal and vertical sizes, thereby "shrinking" the effective size of whatever is seen onscreen since a somewhat larger total image area is being presented in the same size 34" screen rectangle) actually makes things much sharper and crisper, and more filmlike in its appearance.



This could be true as long as you don't create a situation where you start to overlap scan-lines, which has a softening effect.


----------



## shaddix

well the only thing i can think then is my set is defective, since the default mid numbers make the image wayyyy wayy too big for the raster


----------



## G-Bull

Are you certain your MID settings are at the factory defaults? Are you sure that you or nobody else might have gone in and changed them at some point? Try to get your hands on the Service Manual for your model, so you can confirm that the MID settings on your TV are indeed the factory default settings.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you certain your MID settings are at the factory defaults? Are you sure that you or nobody else might have gone in and changed them at some point? Try to get your hands on the Service Manual for your model, so you can confirm that the MID settings on your TV are indeed the factory default settings.



I agree. It's certainly very likely that what the service manual shows as "firmware default" (e.g. 31 for many settings which really need to be quite different for good picture) have already been pre-adjusted through bench tests and setup at the factory before shipping and never actually look that way when your TV first comes out of the box.


Your initial settings (if you wrote them down the first time you got into the service menu) should probably be considered the true "defaults".


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oliver Deplace* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So, if the image layer is much larger than the raster, you're pretty much stuck with making some changes in MID.



Can't say I've run into such an issue. Besides perhaps, potential mis-adjustment of MID size values, I wonder what other issues might cause such a problem?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> why not just see what these do for you when selected to INPUT5/6 while watching 1080i.



Maybe If I get bored someday and run out of things to do I'll look at it a bit ... But, otherwise, if you really want to know "Why Not" - I do not answer this to be "contrary", only to answer the question ... :


#1). Because I don't need to. Without addressing the sampling/resolution issues involved, or delving into the "image processing" and or"EE"/VM settings I've adjusted to preferred settings for all used inputs/scan rates/source "devices"/pic modes/etc in 2170P3+MIDE and any potential relevance that may be involved -- i.e. potiental need to perhaps adjust those as well if I mess around with the MID size settings -- :


*I* know What would result (regarding MID vertical/horizontal size changes, specifically) would be less overscan, and a slightly smaller image size, neither of which is necessarily desireable for me -- My current settings acheive overscan of approximetely 4% from all input sources/scan rates, which *is* generally desireable+appropriate for my purposes.


#2). I'm not sure I can fully express this properly, at present, so I apologize if this isn't very clear -- however, I utilize my set to view high quality, Hi-resolution 1080i and 720p HD broadcasts via Over-the-air broadcast signals(i.e. antenna) via this sets internal ATSC "tuner", as well as transport streams captured or in otherwords "recorded" from those same sources(via firewire from the 960's internal tuner specifically) but decoded/played back via a "PC setup" via KD34XBR960 V6 component input at 1080i. I also sometimes use the MS viewer with high resolution images scanned from film negatives. For various reasons, to put it one way, Since seeing the "nuances" of the differences in quality/etc. from these program sources is an importance for me, and perhaps most importantly, since in my circumstances it is *not necessary* in my case to do so for any reason, I'm just not going to want to "add" another potential variable regarding those "nuances" by adjusting the MID settings in a way such that their image quality *could* potentially be compromised -- I hope that makes some sense ...


As I already noted, however I already have adjusted MID2/3 vertical/Horizontal "posistion" controls, as necessary involving "scan rate/input source device specific" centering issues -- for the scan rates/input signals involved. Which luckily, and partly by my "design"(concering HPOS/VPOS settings/etc) did not involve my "input sources" of 720p or 1080i signals. Although I *may* change some of them back to the default values and live with "slightly off center pic" in some cases, as although it is a very *subtle* thing(and in fact I just may be "seeing things"), I think after living with it for a while it may be somewhat possible I may have(noticably, but barely so) ended up compromising image quality a bit by adjusting those values for 480p from DVD via V5 component. Although, at the time I made the adjustments, I *thought* I looked closely enough at such patterns as the AVIA resolution patters/small text in various test patterns/etc and I recall I didn't seem to *notice* a problem with it ...



> Quote:
> VPOS 0-63 28 (26)


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Quite frankly, I do not think I've lost any resolution whatsoever by what I've done. In fact if anything the fact that the overscan has been reduced (by increasing the horizontal and vertical sizes, thereby "shrinking" the effective size of whatever is seen onscreen since a somewhat larger total image area is being presented in the same size 34" screen rectangle) actually makes things much sharper and crisper, and more filmlike in its appearance.



Now, contrary to my last post ... I must say I do find your observation here intriguing -- especially the latter part of it, and Glen's subsequent comments on the matter, enough so that perhaps when I get a chance(which is probably going to be a while), I might try some *careful* experiments with it.


Hopefully, perhaps KenTech will have some additional comments to contribute on this issue of MID H/V size/posistion adjustments and our recent discussion of it as well ...


[update] -- There is a particularly good discussion of interest of this and/or "related" issues between KenTech, Oliver Deplace and others which can be found roughly between post #2005 and #2016 :


Here are three posts from those I find particularly informative and/or interesting :


Post #2005 :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8377877 



Post #2014 :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8390692 


Post 2016 :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8392350 


Hmm, on second thought after reading those again(particularly #2016), I think I'll stick with Ken's recommendations/findings on this one, as it doesn't seem to me I need to spend any more time on this ....


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's certainly very likely that what the service manual shows as "firmware default" (e.g. 31 for many settings which really need to be quite different for good picture) have already been pre-adjusted through bench tests and setup at the factory before shipping and never actually look that way when your TV first comes out of the box.
> 
> 
> Your initial settings (if you wrote them down the first time you got into the service menu) should probably be considered the true "defaults".



While that is true for many settings(such as the "Deflection" settings), it's not true for other settings, such as the MID Picture size/posistioning settings. And, just as Ken has said and for the reasons he menitoned, (at least on XBR960/XS955) the set's "defaults" for MID Picture size/posistioning should probably be the same as the service code listing for your model set, they are not adjusted by factory personel -- The actual set defaults for those MID controls certianly match the service Manual's "Service Mode code chart" listing on my set, unlike some other SM settings. Although of course it is important to note whether or not that is the case (and write down the "actual" set defaults) before making any adjustments ...


See post #2005 and the service code chart for more details :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8377877


----------



## biker19

I've tried to play with a few settings in the service menu but have yet to find the one that corrects a tilt of the picture, both top and bottom of my 30XS955. The tilt is only obvious during scenes with a running ticker - the ticker is about 1/4" higher on one side than the other. I've lived with it for a year but it's starting to annoy me during football games.


So which setting tilts the picture?


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *biker19* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So which setting tilts the picture?



In the XBR960's service menu, 2170D-1 item NSCO is for rotation/tilt.


----------



## fred33

In the service menu, it talks about the 1080i HD Mode Adjustment.

It says adjust the geometry similar to full drc mode

vertical size is 11.7 + o.1 sq. and horizontal size is 15.6 + 0.1 sq., if monoscope signal is avail.....Other wise set the vertical size to 91.0 + 0.6% and horizontal size as 91.0 + 0.6% scan.


What is the scale of those numbers?


----------



## biker19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the XBR960's service menu, 2170D-1 item NSCO is for rotation/tilt.



Thanks.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the service menu, it talks about the 1080i HD Mode Adjustment.
> 
> It says adjust the geometry similar to full drc mode
> 
> vertical size is 11.7 + o.1 sq. and horizontal size is 15.6 + 0.1 sq., if monoscope signal is avail.....Other wise set the vertical size to 91.0 + 0.6% and horizontal size as 91.0 + 0.6% scan.
> 
> 
> What is the scale of those numbers?



Perhaps This may be of some use. I didn't find any detailed explanation of the "scale" involved which they are referring to via a search through the portions of the XBR960 service manual I have available (geometry pages/tube replacement sections/etc), but In section 4-1 (Picture Size and Geometry Adjustments) of the KD-34XBR2 Service Manual, page 15 it says :


:quote


:REQUIRED EQUIPMENT:

NTSC generator with monoscope pattern and cross-hatch pattern. (In lieu of the monoscope pattern, the cross-hatch pattern will suffice. However,

to correctly size the picture you must be able to calculate what percentage of the generator's full pattern is being displayed due to the over-scanning

of the CRT.)


:end quote



Then, in the 1st upper right diagram on pg 15, it details a graphic of a monoscope pattern, and indicates (for a XBR2) a full mode (NTSC) adjustment of vertical height of "11.6" refers to 11.6 BOXES(vertically) of the Monoscope pattern they are referring to(basically looks like a crosshatch pattern in the diagram), which they also specify refers to 90% of the Height of a cross hatch pattern.


So, in the case for the 1080i full mode adjustments from XBR960/etc. Service Manual you refer to(section 2-9.2), I believe they are probably talking about 11.7 vertical "BOXES" in the monoscope pattern (+ or - .1 "square"(or "box"), by 15.6 Boxes Horizontally (+ or - .1 "square", or 1/10th the area of each "square") .....


Or, 91% (+ or - .6%) of the size of a cross hatch pattern(vertically or horizontally) ... Which, If I'm thinking about it right(and I may not be) would seem to me to be roughly equivilent to about 8.4~9.6% overscan (OUCH!) ... Which indeed is very much along the lines of how my set was adjusted "from the factory" ...


----------



## NiSmoZzZz

How do you access these so called codes or this service menu?


----------



## jpl3447




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NiSmoZzZz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How do you access these so called codes or this service menu?


 Here.


----------



## shaddix

remind me to never buy another CRT =(


although i will probably keep this piece of junk until I can get a nice SED set










for some reason now on my tv, the right side of the raster has more vertical size than the left, I have no idea how to fix it. it's terrible because now the vertical overscan on the right side of the screen is 8-10% while on the left is 3-5%


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaddix* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ..............for some reason now on my tv, the right side of the raster has more vertical size than the left, I have no idea how to fix it. it's terrible because now the vertical overscan on the right side of the screen is 8-10% while on the left is 3-5%



"for some reason"?......Somebody must have changed something. How to fix?......call for service if all else fails.


HTPZ is the probable fix.


----------



## NiSmoZzZz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shaddix* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> remind me to never buy another CRT =(
> 
> 
> although i will probably keep this piece of junk until I can get a nice SED set
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for some reason now on my tv, the right side of the raster has more vertical size than the left, I have no idea how to fix it. it's terrible because now the vertical overscan on the right side of the screen is 8-10% while on the left is 3-5%



I just solved that using the service menu. My overscan was annoying as one side was more overscanned then the other. I put all the numbers to 0 and moved from there. Took like 3 hours to get it, but now I have a REAL 16x9 picture. Make sure you write down the original codes.


----------



## Nirvelli

Thank you so much for this great resource.

I just adjusted my horizontal and vertical position and size on my xbr960, because it had been cutting off the right side of menus in Xbox games.


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nirvelli* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thank you so much for this great resource.
> 
> I just adjusted my horizontal and vertical position and size on my xbr960, because it had been cutting off the right side of menus in Xbox games.



Please tell us how you did it...!


----------



## lastxbr960




KenTech said:


> I would concentrate only on #0-12.
> 
> 
> (3) I revisited all of my LANDING settings from #0 thru 6. #6, TESW, turns off the corner compensation of #0-3, LT-RB, so you can choose settings for EWSP and ENSW that give a most-even color for the screen. Put up a white or gray full screen (my black crosshatch-on-gray will do), not too bright, stand back a ways, set TESW to 1, and set EWSP and ENSW for best evenness. Then turn TESW back to 0 and tweak LT-RB for best corners -- minimum color, minimum darkening. (Don't stare; move your eyes around.) I improved mine. Something a tech said to me reminded me that there *are* set-orientation adjustments, and EW and NS look like east-west and north-south to me. I ended up with different settings than I had before and a more-even screen.
> 
> 
> Thanks!!!, this helped me get rid of some slight blue uneveness in my left top and left buttom of the screen wheen showing a white or light grey background.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now my ISF'ed XBR960 is almost perfect.


----------



## gribble

Hi all. just weighing in on the Mid3 codes as they pertain to horizontal overscan and position for the KV34-HS420/520.


I love the KV-34 series, but the horizontal overscan and centering is horrific on these models when shipped. They're popular around here, I've seen a dozen or so, and thev've all been scary. % may be a precise method of description, but it makes them sound better than they really are. I've seen HPOS center off by more than 4 inches straight from the factory. Combine it with the overscan and you have a movie called "aster and Commander"


It can't be corrected with the 2170D menus without creating unfixable picture geometry and/or blanking problems. At least I can't, and I've been messing with most of those codes for more than 20 years.


The Mid3 codes VDHS and VDHP are absolutely crucial with these models or you're going to have to watch "ora! Tora! Tora!" and wonder what's happening stage left. (It's been left on all the models I've seen anyway.)Trust the forum experts and leave the Mid3 verticals alone. The 2170D adjustments seem more than adequate for vertical issues.


If you own one of these the good news is that with the Mid3 VDHS & VDHP you can easily achieve 3% overscan on either side and perfect centering. The bad news is that you will have to reset your 2170D codes for geometry and blanking, including HPOS and HSIZ. I'd suggest you cycle through everything repeatedly and make the adjustments in smallish increments.


I haven't been able to find any real-world picture degradation problems with VDHS and VDHP. I thought I saw one, but with the assistance of muscular friends I managed a side by side comparison with matching hardware and it was purely psychological.


They are absolutely wonderful sets once you fix this nastiness. As an afterthought, it might be helpful to remember that they are not multisync like computer monitors. They always run at 1080i, no matter what signal you feed them.


cheers, John


PS. The movie titling example is slightly exaggerated, as you can still see part of the first letter, nevertheless it's still intolerable.


J


----------



## gp-se




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gribble* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi all. just weighing in on the Mid3 codes as they pertain to horizontal overscan and position for the KV34-HS420/520.
> 
> 
> I love the KV-34 series, but the horizontal overscan and centering is horrific on these models when shipped. They're popular around here, I've seen a dozen or so, and thev've all been scary. % may be a precise method of description, but it makes them sound better than they really are. I've seen HPOS center off by more than 4 inches straight from the factory. Combine it with the overscan and you have a movie called "aster and Commander"
> 
> 
> It can't be corrected with the 2170D menus without creating unfixable picture geometry and/or blanking problems. At least I can't, and I've been messing with most of those codes for more than 20 years.
> 
> 
> The Mid3 codes VDHS and VDHP are absolutely crucial with these models or you're going to have to watch "ora! Tora! Tora!" and wonder what's happening stage left. (It's been left on all the models I've seen anyway.)Trust the forum experts and leave the Mid3 verticals alone. The 2170D adjustments seem more than adequate for vertical issues.
> 
> 
> If you own one of these the good news is that with the Mid3 VDHS & VDHP you can easily achieve 3% overscan on either side and perfect centering. The bad news is that you will have to reset your 2170D codes for geometry and blanking, including HPOS and HSIZ. I'd suggest you cycle through everything repeatedly and make the adjustments in smallish increments.
> 
> 
> I haven't been able to find any real-world picture degradation problems with VDHS and VDHP. I thought I saw one, but with the assistance of muscular friends I managed a side by side comparison with matching hardware and it was purely psychological.
> 
> 
> They are absolutely wonderful sets once you fix this nastiness. As an afterthought, it might be helpful to remember that they are not multisync like computer monitors. They always run at 1080i, no matter what signal you feed them.
> 
> 
> cheers, John
> 
> 
> PS. The movie titling example is slightly exaggerated, as you can still see part of the first letter, nevertheless it's still intolerable.
> 
> 
> J



great post! however on my HS420 my MID3 settings don't have any settings for geometry.


----------



## gribble




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gp-se* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> great post! however on my HS420 my MID3 settings don't have any settings for geometry.



You're right, it doesn't. They are in the 2170D menus. No offense intended, but if you weren't solid on that, I'd suggest you back off on the MID3 adjustments for the time being. The necessary corrections are an EXTREME deviation from the manufacturers defaults. Plus, if that's all you adjust you'll mangle the picture geometry.


If you haven't already, scroll through the beginning of the thread and download the .pdf material KenTech has assembled for us. Print it. You'll need it in front of you, and it's a good place to notate your changes. Notate all changes. Resist all temptation, and every excuse not to, or I can guarantee regret.


You really need to get comfortable with the 2170D stuff first or combining it with the MID3 I was talking about is more likely to give you a migraine than a better picture.


When you do get to the MID3: My first post on the subject includes a knowledge assumption I shouldn't have made. You have to completely withdraw the blanking shutters before you start, then ease them back when you're finished. They're in 2170D-3, 0 thru 5. They keep the electron beam from hitting the sides of the tube and creating reflections on the screen.


You should probably pull them back before adjusting screen size and position in 2170D menus as well. If you see reflections on the screen, with the 420 most likely on the right side, don't worry, you can fix it with the shutters.


Have fun,


John


----------



## NextGen

Hey Kentech and you other smart people, I finally understand sharpness. I always thought sharpness degraded my image until I calibrated my tv. As you know I pretty much took all the enhancements and things in the service menu (which was a LOT to say the least) and tried to make the tv "transparent" for the signal going into it. Well, now that my tv is more correctly set up I have my sharpness set on the default 29 setting for the user menu and whad-a-ya-know it looks fantastic. I didn't notice it made that huge of an impact until I started using the web browser of my PS3. I knew all my settings were correct but I noticed fine text looked blurred and almost out of focus. I thought to myself the only thing I'll even attempt to change is the sharpness, maybe those guys on AVS are right after all. If I go much past 29 text looks altered and messed up and if I go much below 29 text looks blurred. I'm not sure if the default setting is the sweet spot, but everything look great so far.


Thanks for all the informative posts all you guys make on here.


----------



## gp-se




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Kentech and you other smart people, I finally understand sharpness. I always thought sharpness degraded my image until I calibrated my tv. As you know I pretty much took all the enhancements and things in the service menu (which was a LOT to say the least) and tried to make the tv "transparent" for the signal going into it. Well, now that my tv is more correctly set up I have my sharpness set on the default 29 setting for the user menu and whad-a-ya-know it looks fantastic. I didn't notice it made that huge of an impact until I started using the web browser of my PS3. I knew all my settings were correct but I noticed fine text looked blurred and almost out of focus. I thought to myself the only thing I'll even attempt to change is the sharpness, maybe those guys on AVS are right after all. If I go much past 29 text looks altered and messed up and if I go much below 29 text looks blurred. I'm not sure if the default setting is the sweet spot, but everything look great so far.
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the informative posts all you guys make on here.



I have my sharpness set at 12, once I get around 20 you can see double lines and stuff, but I have a HS420.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, now that my tv is more correctly set up I have my sharpness set on the default 29 setting for the user menu and whad-a-ya-know it looks fantastic. I didn't notice it made that huge of an impact until I started using the web browser of my PS3. I knew all my settings were correct but I noticed fine text looked blurred and almost out of focus.



Sounds simplistic, but it depends...


If you try and use an XBR960 (or any other CRT TV for that matter) as a computer monitor you're asking something quite different of the display mechanism than if you watch HDTV on it. Even overscan is a factor when the TV is used as part of a Windows desktop, as normal TV-acceptable overscan will crop the edges of the desktop (especially the taskbar at the bottom) making it unacceptable.


Similarly, the resolution of tiny text (from web browsing) on an XBR960 is also bound to be problematic. Tiny text is not normally seen in standard HDTV program content.


All of these situations may require non-zero sharpness to compensate and to produce a result that you find acceptable, but I contend that this is a situation not everybody has and I feel that in general sharpness=MIN is the proper setting for true 720p/1080i HDTV broadcast/HDDVD content. Hey... I have sharpness=19 for my D*-provided SD input (on INPUT1) but also have sharpness=0 on INPUT5/6 and 7 as well as firewire and ATSC.


Bottom line: a discussion of sharpness and its appropriate setting needs to include the type of content being handled (SD or HD), and whether you're displaying computer-like output (e.g. small text and graphics) or watching "Star Wars".


----------



## fred33

I have the latest oppo dvd upconvert player hooked to my HDMI on my SONY KD-34XBR960.

At resolutions of 720p and 1080i, I get a green push or green tint to the overall picture. At 480p, the picture looks great!


Is there any adjustment I can make to rid of the green push?


P


----------



## ColdFlo

Wow all this time an you guys are still debating the same set of limited values......... You would think by now you would at least have tried to atempt a listed definition guide of all the service menu varaiables(so you could move onto a tried and true calibration guide). All I still see is Ken's braggart diary with axiom instructions from his learned greek mind and GlenC still owning him at every opportunity, but only in the interest of his trade(what a great guy). The rest of you act like Ken is god fooling around and repeating what he says to the noobs like you guys are his important right hand men and I'm sure he feels that way about you. I still see allot of conjecture that looks retarded. I would think you could have had some of these isf guys shed some light in here but it looks like no one has accomplished that either. You all know it all anyway what do you need them for. What is left is the first 10 pages of nonsense calibrations that ken has since revised, but he wants you to read 100 pages to figure that out so you can waste as much time as he and the rest of you have(in your inane I have the end all calibration approach one up contest). It seems you all end up agreeing with the manuals hidden secrets anyway so why even try to sound like you came up with it. I also see allot of non truths posted in this thread just mindless adherence to the manual or this is the way it is on my tv approaches that list variables without any kind of decent explanation of what they do or what other settings they affect(really your just writing dairies of your callibration experiences which have nothing to do with the title of this thread at all and have helped no one other than you so you can feel like your apart of something). If you read closely what your explanations always boil down to is endless trial and error until you get it just right which is not a method at all its just trial and error. I'm sure most of you don't even know what the different picture modes mean even still or can explain the errors in the service manual or even really understand any of this stuff beyond what is very east to understand. I mean there are whole sections of this manual and crucial details that still none of you understand. I mean what use is saying this abbreviated variable and this setting(Most of the time you dont even post your last or the service manual stock value for your tv like you assume everyone has your tv and service manual).


So in closing you really havent learned all that much about the service codes. Instead this thread should be titled my service mode journey and what limited knowledge I have come up with. Also ken most of your offerings have come from you googling the abbreviations, and I always find it amazing that you only release the information when someone else discusses it.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sounds simplistic, but it depends...
> 
> 
> If you try and use an XBR960 (or any other CRT TV for that matter) as a computer monitor you're asking something quite different of the display mechanism than if you watch HDTV on it. Even overscan is a factor when the TV is used as part of a Windows desktop, as normal TV-acceptable overscan will crop the edges of the desktop (especially the taskbar at the bottom) making it unacceptable.
> 
> 
> Similarly, the resolution of tiny text (from web browsing) on an XBR960 is also bound to be problematic. Tiny text is not normally seen in standard HDTV program content.
> 
> 
> All of these situations may require non-zero sharpness to compensate and to produce a result that you find acceptable, but I contend that this is a situation not everybody has and I feel that in general sharpness=MIN is the proper setting for true 720p/1080i HDTV broadcast/HDDVD content. Hey... I have sharpness=19 for my D*-provided SD input (on INPUT1) but also have sharpness=0 on INPUT5/6 and 7 as well as firewire and ATSC.
> 
> 
> Bottom line: a discussion of sharpness and its appropriate setting needs to include the type of content being handled (SD or HD), and whether you're displaying computer-like output (e.g. small text and graphics) or watching "Star Wars".



That does make sense, and I've argued for a long time that sharpness set at Min or 0 would be the proper setting so as it would not introduce noise into the picture. However, _and I'm not arguing here, but just making an observation of my set and they way I have it set up_, at the moment, with my settings as they are, sharpness set around 29(give or take a point or two) looks beyond belief with whatever content I'm displaying. Video games look nothing short of astonishing, and I think astonishing is probably a huge understatement. Movies look, at times, as if the actors are right there in front of me. My sharpness honestly looks like it is acting as an extra focus control, and not the video noise maker I once thought it was. I'm beginning to think why I hated it so much in the past was because I never had my TV displaying images in such a transparent way before. I'm betting sharpness was just enhancing all those internal enhancers either directly or indirectly. But now, that just doesn't happen, my text looks perfect and doesn't suffer from any strange anomalies you would normally expect sharpness to cause. _I'm now starting to understand why Kentech is so enthusiastic about adding 'tweaks' here and there to his television set.
_


If I could explain it to someone who works with Photoshop...


On my set, sharpness at 33 and going up acts like the Sharpen More tool is being added the further you go up. Sharpness at 25- starts acting like the Blur More tool is being added the further you go down. However, when you have it set right near that 29 position, at least on the standard setting, it's as if you just opened a high quality image in photoshop and it was taken by a very skilled photographer. But none of the settings, whether I raise it or lower it, act like the Noise tool in Photoshop.


That's just an observation of how it looks to me, and I don't know if this is simply how sharpness works on this set, perhaps it's the revision number I have *or perhaps those ENHA settings are also controlled by the sharpness slider?*, or if there are some other settings I have incorrect somewhere to cause it to act this way. Regardless of what it is, everything now looks astounding, beyond belief, and incredible. I simply can't recall a television set I've ever seen at any store or at anyone's home that could hold a candle to this thing.

Then again, I'm not a tv tech either.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You would think by now you would at least have tried to atempt a listed definition guide of all the service menu varaiables(so you could move onto a tried and true calibration guide).



I actually did this very thing when I calibrated my TV. I dug up all the information I could find posted by Dsperber, Ken, and everyone else. Then made a note of what each setting appeared to do and tried to disable or minimize the effect of anything that altered the image on the screen from it's original state. For instance, in the 3D-COMB section of the service menu I made a note that Ken, or someone on here, found that VAPG and VAPI are some kind of vertical enhancement and that 0 turned them off, so I turned them off. I learned that PROV, F1LV, LTLV, LTMD, and CTLV all provide some kind of alteration to the image, so I set them all to 0. The point is I had to make sure I could disable them and I had to make sure than 0 did just that. _On a few settings 1 or 3 may center or disable the enhancement._ I don't even know exactly what some of these setting even do, just that some of the kind folks here noticed what happened to their image when they adjusted them.



> Quote:
> So in closing you really havent learned all that much about the service codes.



But, boy do I have one fantastic looking TV.


----------



## monkeysalad

Greetings,

I am experiencing an extemely noticeable picture shift at the bottom of my screen (sony kd-30xs955). This is not adjustable with the LCP setting in the service menu. The geometry of my tv is very close to perfect (after hours of adjusting!), however at the very bottom of my screen my picture shifts HARD to the left. Has anyone experienced this before? Here is what it looks like:


|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 
//////////////////////////////////////// 

If I switch APSW to 1 in the service menu this problem disappears on 1080i mode but comes right back when I am viewing dvd's through hdmi. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks-


----------



## ColdFlo

The point is to share it and come up with a complete full on defintion of the service codes and interaction. Lets face it you wont do that work yourself..........


----------



## gribble

Two part question for the groups experts:


1 (curiosity) When viewing a 2.35:1 DVD why do the black bars shift in luminosity?


2 (what I'm desperate to know) Any thoughts on codes or settings where I could experiment with compromise values to minimize this effect?


----------



## corlay

30HS420, here...


After adjusting/calibrating/optimizing all that I think that I want to mess with, and getting really great results with regard to picture quality, overscan, and geometry; I still have 2 lingering issues that I wonder if anyone might be able to advise me how to try and correct?


#1

when fine fabric patterns appear in the screen (or tight contrasting patterns in general, really...) that area seems to 'shimmer', is the best way I can describe it. Like a fluctuating moire pattern. The DVE Test Pattern in Title 13, Chapter 2 'SMPTE RP 133' produces the effect for me. The box with fine black/white pattern shimmers. More so when 480i, but still with 480p.


#2

Horizontal lines within the mid-lower section of my screen bend/bow upward at the screen edges. this is most noticeable whenever a full-width horizontal banner is present on-screen.

I've tried adjusting with all the available Vertical geometry controls in 2170-D1; without much luck. If I overcompensate these controls to decrease this bowing, the rest of the image is severely compromised. I'm wondering if there is a MID-x series control that might help? But I don't have an understanding of what all of those settings control? The hs420 service data chart.pdf is an invaluable resource for finding settings, but no descriptions of each function accompanies that reference.


Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


--

corlay


----------



## gribble




> Quote:
> If I switch APSW to 1 in the service menu this problem disappears on 1080i mode but comes right back when I am viewing dvd's through hdmi.



APSW is an aspect switch that tweaks pin, as you've seen (4:3 tube vs 16:9 tube on the sames chassis), and the setting for 1080 (as far as my limited knowledge goes) are opposite of what you need for the other input modes.


So, try setting the other modes to O, or setting your DVD output to 1080 (if you haven't already)


I've seen it and it ain't pretty.


As a desperate last resort, you could nudge up the bottom blanking shutter in 2170D. but it shouldn't be necessary.


Cheers

john


----------



## gribble

The shimmering you describe is most likely a result of ClearEdge Velocity Modulation.


NB. IF 210P-3, item 17, VM, is not 0: off does not mean off, and the screen has a noisy "shimmer". Modes other than Pro have some VM as a factory default, even when you turn it off.


Suggest you set VM to 0 for everything so you can actually turn it off, and try that in the normal TV video menu.


It can be helpful in very small doses. The factory settings are 4-15. I use mine at 1,2 & 3. (VML, VMM, VMH)


The bowing geometry problem is only fixable with time and patience. I started fixing deflection problems like this when you had to make the adjustments with a screwdriver and there's still no fast easy system that I can figure out. As you've noticed it's all interconnected. Change one thing and everything else goes out of wack.


All I can come up with is cycling through everything over and over, making adjustments in small increments and slowly nudging everything into place a bit at a time. It's tedious, but it works.


As much as I love perfection when I get to something that works for me in the real world I stop. Troy may be a ghastly awful movie, but if those phalanxes of spears are straight and travel across the screen without any wavering......................


only you know how good you need it


john


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gribble* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Two part question for the groups experts:
> 
> 
> 1 (curiosity) When viewing a 2.35:1 DVD why do the black bars shift in luminosity?
> 
> 
> 2 (what I'm desperate to know) Any thoughts on codes or settings where I could experiment with compromise values to minimize this effect?



It really depends on what you are really seeing. My first guess would be that it is slight and changes with the brightness level of the picture. If so, that would be caused by reflections inside the tube. If you really want 2.35:1, you can make a mask to put in front of the tube. If you look at the 2nd disc of the Da Vinci Code, there is a scene in there where you can clearly see gaffers tape on the tube of the broadcast monitor, framing the 2.35:1 format.


----------



## monkeysalad

Thanks for the suggestion gribble. I went thru the menu and made sure ASPW was set to zero for everything except 1080i...now let me check my bottom shutter.


----------



## monkeysalad

My bottom shutter is set perfectly. I really don't want to "cover up" this problem. I am not a big fan of over-overscan so I think I'll seek another solution. Besides, on 720p broadcasts this problem climbs up almost two inches from the bottom of my screen. I'll try to post a picture of it...


----------



## monkeysalad

  

 

Click on the pics.

Here is what it looks like...It's as if everthing on the bottom of my screen is smeared to the left. Grrr...

I must also mention that it is bad on 1080i broadcasts but is worse on 720p and DVD video via HDMI. However, SD broadcasts are perfect, no skewing! Please help! Chris-


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *monkeysalad* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> I am experiencing an extemely noticeable picture shift at the bottom of my screen (sony kd-30xs955). This is not adjustable with the LCP setting in the service menu. The geometry of my tv is very close to perfect (after hours of adjusting!), however at the very bottom of my screen my picture shifts HARD to the left. Has anyone experienced this before? Here is what it looks like:
> 
> 
> ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> ////////////////////////////////////////
> 
> If I switch APSW to 1 in the service menu this problem disappears on 1080i mode but comes right back when I am viewing dvd's through hdmi. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks-



It's very interesting you posted this. I have the EXACT same problem on my 34xs955 on all content except 480i. It forces me to adjust 480p, and up, to have about 3-4% overscan, which isn't bad at all, but I would really like a nice 2% of that back. If I find any fixes I'll be sure and post them here.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The point is to share it and come up with a complete full on defintion of the service codes and interaction. Lets face it you wont do that work yourself..........



If I could I would, but there are so many codes, and so many combinations of codes that work together and counteract each other it's just nearly impossible to get through them all. Other members have posted what many of the codes do, you just need to search all the different pages to find them. I had an entire stack of pages printed out before I got the gist of them.


Give me a few more days and I'll be updating my settings post that is a few pages back. I may even start a new thread either here or on my site and list everything I can in one easy to read post. Just keep in mind I'm just simply not as skilled as other people on here are. I'm just the average joe fiddler and not a service tech.


To give you an idea of how nice my set is looking now, I can view the text on this forum from my PS3 with the display set to 1080i. Though I normally switch it to 720p since it's just that much easier to read. It, of course, isn't as easy to read as a computer monitor, but the fact I can read fine text on my CRT tells me I'm calibrating in the right direction.


----------



## ColdFlo

Glen lose some weight.


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *monkeysalad* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> I am experiencing an extemely noticeable picture shift at the bottom of my screen (sony kd-30xs955). This is not adjustable with the LCP setting in the service menu. The geometry of my tv is very close to perfect (after hours of adjusting!), however at the very bottom of my screen my picture shifts HARD to the left. Has anyone experienced this before? Here is what it looks like:
> 
> 
> ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> ////////////////////////////////////////
> 
> If I switch APSW to 1 in the service menu this problem disappears on 1080i mode but comes right back when I am viewing dvd's through hdmi. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks-



I'm not sure about 30XS955, but 34XBR970 has a setting PSTP in MID3 that seems to fix this.


----------



## ColdFlo

Gen you obviously haven't been reading the thread very long. I have a better understanding of the codes than you do, and guy with the 45 degree angle at the bottom thats a front porch issue you need to go back through the thread or do that research on your own(kens solution is never adjust overscan(it makes it blurry))(to overcome this I just run 720P mode with the MIDE for 1080). A porch issue is hard to fix with just the tv by itself you need a computer or some other fancy device I have no idea about. My tv is now 5 years old and I think my red gun died. I need sed...... Think I'll just order a nice crt monitor to hold me over......

My point was, since it went completely over your head, is to not sound like a know it all jerk and actually work together instead of fighting like a bunch of impatient americans. Yes I'm from this country; I'm just above you and not a ridiculous. I mean you guys have been prattering on for 2 years now. Its time to put all this stuff together and be done with it. Stop witholding information like someone's set might look better than yours. I assure you the guy with the nicer model looks better anyway and none of you can touch the standards of a seasoned isf callibrator so why fight over whos crappy tweaks are better. Competition is good but in this situation it's just plain stupid. Think about someone else when you write your posts all I see in this thread is me me me. What a bunch of titties.


P.S. This is not the help me fix my tv thread. This thread is for discussion of service codes. Those that need help start another thread so you dont end up adding useless drivle to this thread which by now is most of it. I mean all I keep seeing is discussion of the same things over and over interspersed with useless informatiion and or typing.


----------



## gribble

Are you sure APSW can't get it? Tried all mode settings? I have three sets accessible to play with in addition to my own, and I can turn precisely the same hideous bottom shift on and off at will for the various modes in the APSW menu.


Here's what I did. Hooked up DVD player, cycled through all modes, 480i, 480p, 720p

1080i. Set APSW code to eliminate the shift for each one. The 720P is just for reference. As far as I can tell 720P uses the same setting as 1080i, but if you have the shift it's worse in 720.


Sadly, none of these sets are your model.


(only fer wot it's worth)


john


----------



## gribble

Thats what I figured, just hoping to be wrong. My language was a little sloppy, should have said 'fluctuates with overall average picture luminance.'


I only use Avia and DVE to establish my baselines anyway, given that DVD authoring values are all over the map and some heavily digitized stuff like LOTRings isn't even consistent from scene to scene. I'm pretty sure I can find a black/gamma/brightness/contrast compromise tweak in the DVD output settings that I'm content with. Didn't want to go there prematurely.


Thanks again


john


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gribble* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you sure APSW can't get it? Tried all mode setting? I have three sets accessible to play with in addition to my own, and I can turn precisely the same hideous bottom shift on and off at will for the various modes in the APSW menu.
> 
> 
> (only fer wot it's worth)
> 
> 
> john



I'll have to check APSW out next time I'm in my SM. I had the same problem with my TV, and found the PSTP "solution" in a previous post in this thread. PSTP seems to affect the ******-bottom stuff directly - if you adjust it one way, it makes the ****** stuff start farther up the screen, and if you adjust it the other way it makes the ****** stuff start further down the screen, so you can keep going until it gets to the bottom of the screen and it's gone. If you go farther than that, it makes the whole screen go all loopy.


I couldn't find a whole lot of info about APSW here in this thread when I searched for it. I'll certainly do some investigating next time I'm in the SM. I'd rather leave all the MID3 settings alone if I can fix the problem with 2170D-1.


Man, if only there were a thread devoted to the sony service menu codes instead of just this "help me fix my TV" thread... then I might be able to learn more about APSW...


----------



## monkeysalad

G-Bull you have solved my problem my friend. PSTP in MID3 was exactly what I needed to straighten those lines out. And for those people who have the same problem as I did and don't know how to search it on this forum, here are some key words to make their search a little easier:

Bottom slant

bottom curve

bottom bending

bottom skewed

Hopefully they find this post! Thanks again all who helped! C-


----------



## gribble

I understand exactly what the people averse to the "help me fix my TV" theme are talking about, but respectfully, I disagree.


I saw my first Sony Service Menu in 1985 when the TV station I worked for replaced the master control monitor bank with about 50 14" xbrs and told me to calibrate them. It's a good thing I had a direct line to Sony Technical Services, because, despite the hundreds of pages of detailed documentation provided, I NEEDED HELP.


I found this thread more than twenty years later because my new Sony had a lot of changes in the service menu from the last one, and I NEEDED HELP.


My point is, all the service code information in the world is useless if you can't use it to make the changes you need to. I answered most of my questions by reading the whole thread first, but I already knew what I had to look for, and how to apply it when I found it.


Most people who end up here only know 3 things when they start. There's something about their TV they don't like, you can probably fix it in the service menu, and they need help.


It might be easier keeping up if the only people here already knew how to read an offset values table, but I think the "help me fix my TV component" cluttering up the thread with redundant posts, speculation, et cetera, et cetera, is what makes it useful. I think it belongs here.


What better place to ask for help than the place where the methods for making the necessary adjustments are under discussion? How can anyone learn anything if they can't ask questions?


I get sick of reading the same stuff too. I sympathize with everyone who's tired of the same old simple issues, but I think it's a necessary price we pay to keep an active, useful thread going. The forums and sites that stuck to technical listings are gathering dust because they weren't very much use to very many people. Three cheers for the poorly informed newbies.


Kudos to monkeysalad on the keyword posting. That's how we get it done.


----------



## ColdFlo

Of course you disagree your a selfish overly verbose(to the point of stupidity) jerk. This is to understand all the service codes not just everyones academic little problems. Thats why this thread is 80 pages long and none of you have read it all and i don't really blame you. I wouldn't read it either. See you create your own problem; you won't read the thread because its too long and then you make the situation worse by being lazy and posting your problem in the thread so someone will help YOU. I mean really all you do is crap all over the thread. Your lazy and selfish thats all there is to it. I don't care how nice you ACT facts are facts and outcomes are outcomes. I dare you to disprove anything I say.

No the thread has become unusable your just one of those say anything to get your way old fart losers. I mean you and the rest of you have proven that so dont come in here and lie to everyone. All the good people have left the thread because you losers have cluttered it with crap. Now there are just losers regurgitating the same crap over and over that has been covered at least 5 times. No the price that has been paid is the death of any further exploration or understanding to the regurgitation of idiots. Yes, you are all idiots. I'm tired of reading your posts almost every single one of them is incorrect. You guys can't ever make posts without erroneous self serving my tv looks better than yours conclusions.


Look, be a jerk all you want, but if the thread was run in a more collaborative collection of information into a tried and true guide it would have been a much better experience, but instead of course it has devolved into the crappy banter of a bunch of power minded hierarchical who is the bigger genius monkey pissing contests which ken spawned, and I hate him for it. He had a great idea to start the thread, but he wanted to be the "star" of it, and the rest of you monkeys just monkey see monkey do and copy him. I mean really you guys could at least sound somewhat courteous to each other. I find it funny how you all assume you know it all then when someone owns you cause you really dont know anything and you get so hurt. YOUR HILAROUS.


P.S. Ken yes you wanted to be the star of it. I saw that on agoraquest you were always quick to put others down so you would look the smartest.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...See you create your own problem; you won't read the thread because its too long and then you make the situation worse by being lazy and posting your problem in the thread so someone will help YOU.



Trolling again I see?


"Create your own problem?"


Sound familiar?


You're the one who almost two years ago ignored all the warnings and reset your antique set in the SM and then blamed everyone else for it.


> Quote:
> I mean really all you do is crap all over the thread. Your lazy and selfish thats all there is to it. I don't care how nice you ACT facts are facts and outcomes are outcomes.



Look in the mirror.



> Quote:
> ...but if the thread was run in a more collaborative collection of information into a tried and true guide it would have been a much better experience...



You were whining about this almost two years ago as well. Talk about lazy - you could have put just such a thing together in less time. Add the word contribution to your vocabulary (that's a list of words one uses in written and spoken dialog...)



> Quote:
> ...I mean really you guys could at least sound somewhat courteous to each other...



Remember that mirror?



> Quote:
> P.S. Ken yes you wanted to be the star of it...



Stand up and take a bow - I believe you are the new star


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about 30XS955, but 34XBR970 has a setting PSTP in MID3 that seems to fix this.



That cleared it up for all my modes, and I found that adjusting it to _just the right number_ also helps to reduce flicker in the interlaced modes.


----------



## loadams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (also christensen you were right that mikeinfargo is a lazy kid but at the same time that isssue was never addressed in the thread so for others why not just help him)





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ken you do not know everything and I'm not an idiot, ok.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Look, I fixed it. I know what you know, and now I know more. You have no room to talk down to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ......
> 
> I mean really control yourself, and stop making yourself out to be a joke.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Glen lose some weight.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Gen you obviously haven't been reading the thread very long. I have a better understanding of the codes than you do.......I'm just above you and not a ridiculous...... What a bunch of titties.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> Of course you disagree your a selfish overly verbose(to the point of stupidity) jerk...... Your lazy and selfish thats all there is to it....... I don't care how nice you ACT facts are facts and outcomes are outcomes. I dare you to disprove anything I say.
> 
> No the thread has become unusable your just one of those say anything to get your way old fart losers. I mean you and the rest of you have proven that so dont come in here and lie to everyone. All the good people have left the thread because you losers have cluttered it with crap. Now there are just losers regurgitating the same crap over and over that has been covered at least 5 times. No the price that has been paid is the death of any further exploration or understanding to the regurgitation of idiots. Yes, you are all idiots. I'm tired of reading your posts almost every single one of them is incorrect. You guys can't ever make posts without erroneous self serving my tv looks better than yours conclusions.
> 
> 
> Look, be a jerk all you want, but if the thread was run in a more collaborative collection of information into a tried and true guide it would have been a much better experience, but instead of course it has devolved into the crappy banter of a bunch of power minded hierarchical who is the bigger genius monkey pissing contests which ken spawned, and I hate him for it. He had a great idea to start the thread, but he wanted to be the "star" of it, and the rest of you monkeys just monkey see monkey do and copy him. I mean really you guys could at least sound somewhat courteous to each other. I find it funny how you all assume you know it all then when someone owns you cause you really dont know anything and you get so hurt. YOUR HILAROUS.
> 
> 
> P.S. Ken yes you wanted to be the star of it. I saw that on agoraquest you were always quick to put others down so you would look the smartest.



What the hell happened to you?


----------



## Istari1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *loadams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What the hell happened to you?



To quote Kobe Bryant : "I don't think he was hugged enough as a kid"


----------



## PeterTHX




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Istari1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To quote Kobe Bryant : "I don't think he was hugged enough as a kid"



Um, didn't Kobe get into trouble for "hugging" someone?


----------



## ColdFlo

Dude that got fixed a long time ago. Your a god damn retard I just said the warning was not worded correctly get your head out of your behind. Funny how you all wake up now. You know i got you all pegged. Justsc your just a ken regurgitator the reason why I dont post in this thread is you are just a gang of monkeys and anyone that disagrees with ken is the enemy(or who doesnt kiss the thread regs az)(well guess what kiss mine). You guys got all power tripped over a thread about tweaking a tv and you all still suck at it cmon your jokes. Please I saw all this coming reason I didnt do this before is because I thought maybe the thread would progress. 6 months ago I thought that the thread was over but now I can see I've been right about everything. Face it you gu;ys have just been a bunch of dicks the whole time. Serves you right to hear what you deserve.


Everything I have said about each of you you deserve and its right on. Glen telling people to put tape on their screen to get rid of black bars cmon only a fat loser would say something like that. Tired of that ahole trying to shet on the thread in every post and justsc you are a total a licker I saw that a long time ago. I can do the rest of you one by one just come to me and say something real. Dude that pasted all that stuff with the huge type quotes I thank you. I hope it hit in you your mind like that but in my mind it is much more quiet and monotone.


Ok you think im the bad guy? How many "noobs" did you guys take a crap on like you are so special(I mean cmon justsc pchristiansen gator whatever nightwatchman(your not as bad as the rest but your a follower) you guys have contributed nothing but you all act like college professors).........................

If you know what the person is talking about that means its been covered so your a dick and you say search the thread(never originates from you). If someone asks something you dont know you just sit there silent(you deserve to have higher status as a reg). I wasnt that mad about the misworded warning ken wrote. The warning should be dont ever reset your tv not avoid these keys(I'm still so fn right on this its hilarious that in power monkey land you still think you have legs to stand on). I was more mad about how you guys act and face it you know im right i believe silly internet power monkeys call that owned.


Also get real in the pos sony service guide course where ever that is maybe japan only they cover what you guys know in one day and I bet the job doesnt pay that high in japan compared to other jobs. You guys dont even know the acronym definitions. Its like you guys are arguing and being jerks over the debate of how many teeth a horse has................. When all you have to do is look a gift horse in the mouth....................


P.S. I have more than illustrated that you and your monkey gang and ken and his pos approach to sharing information are the problem(wow ken you have more experience sorry to break it to you ken your not all that bright at all) and I didnt create that. Sure, If I was around during the beginning of this thread i could have guided you idiots into being nicer. But you dont deserve to know the way how to live or think because your a gd retard.


----------



## ClayPigeon

Maybe kentech or somebody else can help me out here. I been lurking for a while and just ran into a problem. I posted this on the display calibration forum also cause i wasn't sure where it should go. heres the post from there:


I have a sony wega KV-FS100L ( stone age, i know ) and really been into the service menu adjustments for a while, so i know what i'm doing when it comes to that. What i noticed is a flickering on the screen. Like it will go dark to light. I did a search and set VRFL to 1 and DSD to 0 in the service menu a while back,and that got rid of it, but then i noticed the faint flicker again when on a static image. Whats weird is if i turn DCTV in the service menu to 0 or 1 it disapears, but if i keep it at it's default of 2 thats when it flickers. ALSO if i turn DSD back to 1 it disapears. What i'm wondering is which parameter should i be using for the fix? Each seem to fix the problem, but lowering the DCTV seems to raise the brightness a tad, and i have no clue what the DSD parameter even is for. So would it be safer to just turn the DSD to 1? Whats weird tho is the higher up i go on DSD the more interference and lines i get on the screen. Thanks for any help!


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gribble* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi all. just weighing in on the Mid3 codes as they pertain to horizontal overscan and position for the KV34-HS420/520.
> 
> 
> I love the KV-34 series, but the horizontal overscan and centering is horrific on these models when shipped. They're popular around here, I've seen a dozen or so, and thev've all been scary. % may be a precise method of description, but it makes them sound better than they really are. I've seen HPOS center off by more than 4 inches straight from the factory. Combine it with the overscan and you have a movie called "aster and Commander"
> 
> 
> It can't be corrected with the 2170D menus without creating unfixable picture geometry and/or blanking problems. At least I can't, and I've been messing with most of those codes for more than 20 years.



FWIW, adjustment of 2170D2 HPOS or HSIZ does not seem to effect geometry(straightness of vertical or horizontal lines in a crosshatch pattern specifically, or linearity) on my set(KD34XBR960).


However, as I believe I've noted before, it seems that on my set at least adjustment of HCNT ("supposed" to be used to center raster) does, most specifically+noticably effect H Linearity ... and, adjustment of 2170D1 VPOS has a slight effect(more pronounced the greater the difference in adjustment of the values if that makes since) on geometry as well, somewhat similar to PPHA ....


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Hello again,


I have been trying to eliminate all sources of ringing/edge enhancement on my 34XS955 for the good part of a week now, but I am still plagued by ringing/ghosting above and below high contrast-low detail horizontal edges. Everything is hunky-dory on the left and right sides of edges and I do not have a clue as to what could be causing this. Improper scaling of the image from MID1 vert. size adjustment perhaps?

I must preface this by saying that my set does not fall in line with many default settings that are provided in the Service Manual and (like a few others) has no provision for making any of the standard vert/horiz adjustments in the MID3 menu. The group menu options are completely different.

So, if any of you kind souls have any options I might try, I would love to hear about them.


Cheers,


Bryan


----------



## gp-se




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello again,
> 
> 
> I have been trying to eliminate all sources of ringing/edge enhancement on my 34XS955 for the good part of a week now, but I am still plagued by ringing/ghosting above and below high contrast-low detail horizontal edges. Everything is hunky-dory on the left and right sides of edges and I do not have a clue as to what could be causing this. Improper scaling of the image from MID1 vert. size adjustment perhaps?
> 
> I must preface this by saying that my set does not fall in line with many default settings that are provided in the Service Manual and (like a few others) has no provision for making any of the standard vert/horiz adjustments in the MID3 menu. The group menu options are completely different.
> 
> So, if any of you kind souls have any options I might try, I would love to hear about them.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> Bryan



my set seems the same, menu options for geometry, etc. are very different than that of the service manual. Also my MID3 has no geometry adjustments. I just used the 2107D group to adjust the most stuff and MID1\\2.

I also have sharpness set to the minimum, turned off all VM in the service menu, and have SYM=3 and SHOF=3.

I have a HS420 BTW.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Good to hear from others that have this version of the SM.


I utilize those same settings, but there is this bizzare vertical ringing. (I may be using the wrong terminology. Whatever you would call a halo or double image above and below horizontal edges.) It also contributes to some awful aliasing on moving diagonal edges.

It makes me wonder if maybe I have some sort of sharpening switched "ON" instead because I have noticed a pronounced softening of details in motion from 1080i T.V. sources. This was not an issue before. Static images are stunning, but introduce some motion and it's mushville.


Oh, well. I'll continue fiddling (as my wife calls it) until I hear some suggestions.


Thanks,


Bryan


----------



## Oliver Deplace

Can't you revert to your previous, known-good settings or has your TV always done this?


----------



## leftkidney

 http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...6E8A0B5D5B4DEF 


a link to the Service Manual for the HS and DRC model TV's


only good for a couple of days more someone could repost it if they like


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Oliver,


I have tried the "original" settings, the "default" settings from the Service Manual and some adjustments of my own. All yield the same results in regards to the vertical overshoot, so it must have always been there (I just wasn't as anal about the PQ back then, thanks AVS!)


Actually after some more tinkering, I think it might be a focus issue. I had QDPC cranked to the max before because when I thew a test pattern up, it never quite reached complete focus. I was one 10" plastic screwdriver away from attempting KenTech's manual focus adjustment when I thought of another test source. On my HD DVD player, when you attempt a firmware upgrade you are confronted with a screenful of 1080i leagalese!

After adjusting focus and convergence, I have a greatly improved picture. My QPDC setting is now around 46, just about in the ballpark for my set's default. Wow, I obviously have been concentrating on horizontal resolution instead of vertical. Quite surprized it didn't jump out at me sooner.

Now I've freed up some time to futz with my greyscale. Urg, I tried RWetmore's experiment with the jacked up DRV and CUT. Yes, more shadow detail but I could not control the overdriven reds with any form of SBRT or GAMR/GAMG/GAMB. Back to the drawing board.


This is all quite fascinating and empowering (if you follow the Golden Rules). Thank you, KenTech, Nightwatchman, RWetmore, GlenC, justc, Oliver and everyone else who has contibuted positively to this thread. (You know who you are!)


Cheers,


Bryan


----------



## gp-se

Would bypassing the MID chips for 1080i result in a better picture?

I was reading another thread about vertical bars with 1080i and it was mentioned to bypass the internal electronics and have the signal go straight to the CRT you change HDPT from 1 to 0. Would that make the picture quality better since your bypassing the MID\\DRC circuts?

Also another quick question my upsacaling DVD player can output either YCbCr or RGB thru HDMI which is better to choose?

I want the least amount of converting the signal done.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Well, it appears I haven't solved the problem. My focus is sharp, but the ringing remains. It apparent on high quality DVD material and 1080i and 480i cable programming.

Still scratching my head as to what would cause ringing only in the vertical realm.

Any ideas as to a enhancement that may have eluded me?


Thanks,


Bryan


----------



## Mathesar

Can anyone elaborate on how to properly adjust Focus? , Should I have the Contrast turned down when making the adjustments? Im actually trying to adjust the focus on my Sony FW900 PC CRT , it has 2 focus screws (vertical & horizontal) but Im not sure what would be the best test pattern for making the adjustments or if I should be in a higher resolution vs. low , refresh rate etc. Ive adjusted it a few times today with decent results but the problem is black text looks kinda of 'blurry' on a white background unless I turn down the contrast, this symptom seems to be affected on how the focus is adjusted ..but so far it only improves if i set it slightly out of focus.


----------



## fred33

Any idea how to fix this...


----------



## jpl3447




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any idea how to fix this...



If I am right you have too little overscan, and thus are seeing those bends. Those white perimeter grids should be closer to the edge of the set, where they should be barely seen. There is a point where the bars stop bending and that is when the overscan is within bounds. Too little overscan, and pronounced bending will occur.


If it is not overscan and that is the right amount then take a look at this and see if you can't see where a tweak in geometry will help. This help correct it to the point on my 960 that it wasn't noticeable on regular programming. There is always a compromise unless you are really really good at calibrating.


----------



## jpl3447




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ColdFlo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The point is to share it and come up with a complete full on defintion of the service codes and interaction. Lets face it you wont do that work yourself..........



Someone HAS done the work. See DSperber's post #2200 and he has attached a spreadsheet that defines each code and what it does. It should be in the index at the beginning of this thread.


Here is the link the page where the post is located. GO down to post #2200. Right click the .zip he provides and open in Excel in a new window or tab. I printed this out it was and is so informative.


----------



## ckhirnigs113

Hi, I posted earlier over in the XBR960 thread about some awful color blotches on my 960, and thanks to this forum I was able to fix most of the problem with the LANDING settings in the service menu. The problem is that I can't get rid of the discoloration completely in one area of the screen. The top right corner still has some visual color blotching.


For those of you well-versed in the service menu, is there anything else that I can do to get rid of this problem? The LT and LB settings in my service menu are already at 0 out of 255, so I can't adjust those anymore. I am really stumped on what to try now. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, CK


----------



## fred33




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jpl3447* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I am right you have too little overscan, and thus are seeing those bends. Those white perimeter grids should be closer to the edge of the set, where they should be barely seen. There is a point where the bars stop bending and that is when the overscan is within bounds. Too little overscan, and pronounced bending will occur.
> 
> 
> If it is not overscan and that is the right amount then take a look at this and see if you can't see where a tweak in geometry will help. This help correct it to the point on my 960 that it wasn't noticeable on regular programming. There is always a compromise unless you are really really good at calibrating.



My overscan is nearly 8%. If I have enough overscan to rid of that, then things will not show up on the screen like headline tickers and logos.

I have gone through all of KenTechs info.


----------



## jpl3447




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My overscan is nearly 8%. If I have enough overscan to rid of that, then things will not show up on the screen like headline tickers and logos.
> 
> I have gone through all of KenTechs info.



So if you brought the overscan down to 2% or 3% would the lines be bent really bad?


----------



## dloomis

*Great* thread - 2 thumbs way up.
























TV: KD-32FS170


The speaker volume for OTA digital channels are way out of whack (too loud), and I was hoping there was a service code for this TV to control audio. For example, on CBS the volume is borderline too loud at the lowest volume setting.







Unfortunately it appears there is no AUDIO code group on the KD-32FS170. Does anyone know if there are generic speaker volume codes that apply to all Sony TVs?


Thanks in advance!


Dan


----------



## fred33




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jpl3447* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So if you brought the overscan down to 2% or 3% would the lines be bent really bad?



bringing it down by so few a % will not cause "more".


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any idea how to fix this...



Which "this" are you talking about, exactly? Your pic shows a few problems:


1) overscan - while not really a problem, that's what others mentioned. Overscan can be adjusted through the service menu. It's all in this thread.


2) geometry/bent lines. These can be adjusted to a certain extent within the service menu. However it's difficult (maybe impossible) to get 100% perfection of the geometry of these big tubes.


3) convergence - there's a fairly clear (and fairly pronounced) convergence problem in the pic that you posted. The white horizontal lines are flanked by a red line above the white part and a blue line below the white part. Unfortunately, this problem cannot be fixed within the service menu. The service menu does have convergence adjustments that fix sid-to-side horizontal convergence problems, but not top-to-bottom vertical convergence problems. These can only be corrected by someone (a qualified technician) removing the plastic cover from the TV and affixing magnets to the tube. This may be covered under warranty, I don't know. You'd have to talk to Sony about that. The up-side of having someone come out to correct the convergence with magnets is that they can also correct the geometry problems (#2 above) with the magnets as well.


----------



## jpl3447




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> bringing it down by so few a % will not cause "more".



If there are no adverse effects then do try to bring the overscan down to 2% to 5%.


If you can get a knowledgeable tech to come and do the magnet work for the up and down convergence that would be good too. I didn't see that in the pic. Good eyes G-Bull!


----------



## Mathesar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anyone elaborate on how to properly adjust Focus? , Should I have the Contrast turned down when making the adjustments? Im actually trying to adjust the focus on my Sony FW900 PC CRT , it has 2 focus screws (vertical & horizontal) but Im not sure what would be the best test pattern for making the adjustments or if I should be in a higher resolution vs. low , refresh rate etc. Ive adjusted it a few times today with decent results but the problem is black text looks kinda of 'blurry' on a white background unless I turn down the contrast, this symptom seems to be affected on how the focus is adjusted ..but so far it only improves if i set it slightly out of focus.



Answering my own post, Nice ..Just thought I'd share my results, After some trial and error I found out adjusting the focus with the Contrast turned up higher than you'd normally run it works wonders with getting optimal focus, All I did was load cnn.com which has a white background and a lot of black & blue text ..with the contrast turned up to 85 text had a blurry / bloom effect but I was able to get it crystal clear (with the contrast still at 85) by adjusting the focus, this worked out far better than trying to adjust it with the contrast turned down , Im able to crank the contrast to 100 now with very minimal blooming ,something I could never do before (I wouldn't normally run it that bright unless im watching a movie perhaps) Im assuming this method might help with any CRT, Cya.


----------



## keeneye

Hello,


While trying to adjust overscan on my 34XS955, I realized that there just doesn't seem to be any way to adjust the horizontal overscan for 4x3 sources displayed in normal screen mode. You can scroll what's in there, change the width of the 4:3 window, but there doesn't seem to be any way to open up the 4:3 display area to show more of the image.


Nitewatchman first asked the question in post #1819 , but the issue never seems to ever have been resolved.


Has anyone figured the status of this?


Thanks!


----------



## Ironkaw

Keeneye, I believe I am looking for the same answer as you. I posted a while back but got no reply. I have read until my head is about to explode, but haven't found the answer yet. When I'm watching regular TV (NTSC) 4:3 on my 970, the 4:3 picture is to narrow almost like the 4:3 window needs to be widened to see more of the picture, but if I adjust the width, which simply streches the picture, it also changes the 16:9 and I end up with a widescreen picture that is way to wide for the screen. Seems there should be a way to adjust the 4:3 window without messing up the 16:9 picture. If anyone has a clue on this one I would appreciate help with it. My set is perfect with the exception of this one problem. Thanks,


Chris


----------



## nwo504

can someone help me out the picture on my screen seems to be cut off on the left side. there a option to adjust the picture vertically but not horizontally.


----------



## keeneye




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ironkaw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Keeneye, I believe I am looking for the same answer as you.
> 
> Chris



Well, there's one thing I just realized thinking about all of this again.


On 16:9 screens, it makes perfect sense for the side pillars of normal 4:3 mode to be of a fixed width. After all, what they're meant to is to turn your 16:9 34 inches tv into a 4:3 tv of roughly 27 inches. With the tv turned off, there's just one way to mask the sides of the screen so that we're left with a 4:3 piece of screen left.


So it makes perfect sense that there is just one window width available in normal mode that gives you the proper 4:3 aspect ratio.


I was looking for something to enlarge this 4:3 window without stretching or shrinking what's in it. There isn't a need for this, as that would be a control to change the 4:3 aspect ratio or the normal window to some other ratio.


The MID2 controls actually allow stretching or shrinking the image within the 4:3 window. If you shrink things enough using the horizontal size (DRHZ) and move things horizontally using the horizontal position (DRHP) you will end up seeing more of the picture, but within the same sized 4:3 window.


If my logic is correct so far, and we cannot actually change the relative width of the 4:3 window within the 16:9 one, doesn't that mean that there's just one proper value for the horizontal size (HSIZ) value of the 2170D-2 setting?


Wouldn't the proper HSIZ value be whatever actually ends up yielding a properly sized normal 4:3 window?


----------



## G-Bull

keeneye & Ironkaw

I'm fairly certain that the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are resolution-specific, and not global. So you can use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 to adjust your 480i 4:3 window, and that should have no effect on your 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 settings for 1080i/720p 16:9...


EDIT/ADDITION: keeneye is correct in the post above -- once you establish the size of your 4:3 "window" with 2170D-2, you can use the horizontal controls in MID2 (or I believe MID3 in the XBR970) to squish or stretch the picture within the "window" in order to maintain proper aspect ratio.


***FINAL EDIT - THIS INFORMATION IN THIS POST IS INCORRECT. PLEASE SEE POST # 2339 BELOW***


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gp-se* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would bypassing the MID chips for 1080i result in a better picture?
> 
> I was reading another thread about vertical bars with 1080i and it was mentioned to bypass the internal electronics and have the signal go straight to the CRT you change HDPT from 1 to 0. Would that make the picture quality better since your bypassing the MID\\DRC circuts?



I can't really add anything to my earlier posts on this, but in short to recap -- all I can report is that with my set (KD34XBR960) experiments I did regarding this issue seemed to indicate the answer to your question seems to be no. In other words, it looked to me like Using a "All Zeros" MID5 Column has the same effect on image processing or any effects on picture quality (in other words turning off all MID image processing) as changing HDPT to 0. Do keep in mind there are several controls elsewhere(ones which will have seperate "PT" columns in the service code listings) which come into play when HDPT is set to "0" and likely require adjustment in order to make a good comparsion between HDPT=1 vs HDPT=0.


Update: Oh almost forgot -- and, strangely enough -- actually, on my set, I noticed those "sort of" (moving if I recall correctly) vertical bar "artifacts" were actually visable with HDPT=0 rather than HDPT=1 .... Looked similar to some sort of RFI to me ...


For more details, Search this thread for HDPT or see the HDPT related posts Ken provided links to in the "table of contents" section in the first post of this thread ...


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mathesar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anyone elaborate on how to properly adjust Focus? ,



Can't really add anything to Ken's articles/posts on adjusting focus earlier in this thread. The procedure, and use of the suggested test patterns he detailed in those posts worked great for me ... As for the "screwdriver" adjustment In my case, it was awfully difficult to say whether or not adjustment of the Focus Pot resulted in any improvement, as it was evident that the factory adjustment was awfully close to what I ended up with .....


----------



## Nitewatchman

sorry for all the posts "right together", but I had a few minutes extra time after lunch today and thought I'd do my best to "contribute" a bit ....


Anyway, Amazing how at times "simple things" can at times seem complicated to discuss here in, let's say a manner that provides for proper "comprehension" by other parties, isn't it?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keeneye* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There isn't a need for this, as that would be a control to change the 4:3 aspect ratio or the normal window to some other ratio.



Keep in mind, The "normal" window doesn't "set" the aspect ratio, Horizontal+vertical size controls are what effects aspect ratio, and the side bars that fill out the rest of the 16x9 "screen" are effected by the HSIZ control just as the center(the "normal" window where 480i/p 4x3 source signals are displayed) of the screen is - therefore, the horizontal overscan is "fixed" in normal mode at about 5% and can't be adjusted in the manner which is possible for the other screen modes, such as "full" mode.



> Quote:
> The MID2 controls actually allow stretching or shrinking the image within the 4:3 window. If you shrink things enough using the horizontal size (DRHZ) and move things horizontally using the horizontal position (DRHP) you will end up seeing more of the picture, but within the same sized 4:3 window.



Well, that is sort of what I was looking for -- But, IF I recall correctly(and I may not be as this is been over six months ago since I looked for it), the MID Horizontal size controls I found which effected this only allowed you to "shrink" the image on the Right side, and one side of the screen was "squeezed" more than the other, resulting in an obviously distorted image ... I didn't go far enough to check the MID horizontal posistioning controls, as I realized at the very least a "normal" screen mode specific vertical size adjustment would be required as well ...


If it is possible to properly reduce horizontal overscan with the "normal" screen mode "4x3" window via independant adjustment of Horizontal size with MID2 controls within the "normal" window -- It would also require a "normal screen mode" specific VERTICAL size adjustment in order to preserve proper aspect ratio. That isn't available in any 2170D adjustments(neither VSIZ or ASPT has a "normal" screen mode specific vertical size adjustment), and would probably only be possible with MID2/normal/DRVS adjustment, which is not an advisable adjustment as has been noted previously in this thread.



> Quote:
> If my logic is correct so far, and we cannot actually change the relative width of the 4:3 window within the 16:9 one, doesn't that mean that there's just one proper value for the horizontal size (HSIZ) value of the 2170D-2 setting?



The proper value for HSIZ Depends upon your Vertical size settings(adjustment of controls such as SLIN affects what is "needed" for a HSIZ value as well),[update] AND a different HSIZ value is required(and allowed/available) for "widezoom"[end update], but otherwise yes.


By the way --- I think where you say "we cannot actually change the relative width of the 4:3 window within the 16:9 one" is a really good way of saying it, I wish I would could have come up with the words to say it that way! More specifically, The problem of course is that we can't change the relative size of the pillarbars, or "sidebars", therefore(other than the possibility of "shrinking" the image size within the 4x3 window with the MID2 controls you mention) the horizontal overscan for the "4x3 window" remains fixed --- at about 5%, regardless of how you have vertical overscan set , or HSIZ set .....



> Quote:
> Wouldn't the proper HSIZ value be whatever actually ends up yielding a properly sized normal 4:3 window?



The proper Hsiz value is whatever results in proper aspect ratio(circles are circles/etc) given the Vertical size you are using, regardless of which picture mode (Normal, Full,Zoom) you are using .... HSIZ is global, there is only a seperate setting available for "widezoom" and "others" (as in all others) ....


For example, if your overscan(in full mode) is 3%, you're going to need a lower HSIZ value than if your overscan is 5% for proper aspect ratio to result ....


[updates for clarification] In "normal" mode, you're still going to need the same VSIZ/HSIZ values as is the case in "full mode" for proper aspect ratio to result, whether you have, lets say overscan set for 3% or 5% "all around" in "full mode", but because of those "statically sized" pillar bars the horizontal overscan is still going to be ~5%, regardless of whether you have 3% or 5% vertical overscan in normal mode ...


So, to put it another way although the actual aspect ratio of the *picture*/IMAGE isn't effected(unless you have VSIZ/HSIZ set improperly, for example), the normal mode "4x3" window, is not really an exactly "4x3"(or 1.33:1) *sized* window unless you also have vertical overscan set for 5% with VSIZ, AND Horizontal overscan(in full mode) the same, at 5% .... OTOH, if you have 0% overscan(all around in "full mode"), you'll have 0% overscan at top and bottom as well as proper aspect ratio for the image(no tall and skinny people or short and fat people) but, in normal mode, 5% of the edges of the picture will *still* be hidden in by those pillar bars inserted by the "set" on the sides ....


----------



## Nitewatchman

Sorry if this is repetitive concerning last post, but (in hopes to be clear) thought I should "clarify" concerning the below :



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> keeneye & Ironkaw
> 
> I'm fairly certain that the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are resolution-specific, and not global.



I'm only aware of the specifics as they apply to my set(KD34XBR960 ) -- in which case, just as the service code charts show, Some 2170D1/D2 settings are very "global", some are more "screen mode" specific ... For instance as mentioned in last post, You can only have a "different" HSIZ value for "Widezoom" and "all others" ..... Not that you would WANT to, but You can't for example, set HSIZ to 40 for 480i 4x3 signals, and say, 50 for 480i 16x9 signals, or 40 for 480i and 42 for 1080i/etc/etc ....



> Quote:
> So you can use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 to adjust your 480i 4:3 window, and that should have no effect on your 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 settings for 1080i/720p 16:9... So you can use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 to adjust your 480i 4:3 window, and that should have no effect on your 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 settings for 1080i/720p 16:9...



Well no ... Also, keep in mind, you can't "adjust" that 480i 4:3 window --- For example, HSIZ effects the "blank area" outside of the "normal" 4x3 window just as it does the "image area" within the "normal" 4x3 window ....



> Quote:
> EDIT/ADDITION: keeneye is correct in the post above -- once you establish the size of your 4:3 "window" with 2170D-2, you can use the horizontal controls in MID2 (or I believe MID3 in the XBR970) to squish or stretch the picture within the "window" in order to maintain proper aspect ratio.



Lets see if I can put it this way .... The way its "set up" Given all MID 1~3 H/V size controls are at the "service code list/factory" defaults(again, at least on my set) --- If we take any other possible adjustments out of it --- if this makes sense --- Global, and proper adjustment(which is all you have in this case) of for example, HSIZ and VSIZ should(and does on my set) result in *proper apsect ratio* for BOTH *Normal* (for 480i/p 4x3 source signals) AND *Full* screen modes(any 16x9 source signal, 480i/p, 720p or 1080i)...... Of course, VSIZ+HSIZ must be adjusted properly for proper aspect ratio to result, you can't adjust one of those without "effecting" the other ....


update: Oh -- as noted earlier -- while VSIZ is completely "global"(only one setting for all screen modes/resolutions/etc) You can only set HSIZ "specifically" for 1)."widezoom", and 2. "everything else". That's because, along with other settings(such as 2170D1 UVLN/LVLN) widezoom requires a "different" value in order for the "desired"(by sony, anyway) Widezoom aspect ratio to result ... I call it "desired", as I have a hard time calling it "proper" because "widezoom" uses a non linear "stretch" mode to fill the 16x9 screen with a 4x3 source, which distorts aspect ratio more on the sides than in the center, while cutting off less of the top+bottom of screen than simply cropping off top+bottom ... Can't image why anyone would want to watch that, but I guess some folks do ...


As for "zoom" mode ... At least on my set, I did have to adjust the "Zoom(and HDzoom) mode" specific 2170D-1 ASPT settings from "43" to "52" for proper aspect ratio(AR) to result, as for example, circles were "squished" and "fat" looking with the factory default/Service code ASPT setting ... On my set, That's the only adjustment to the ASPT settings which was necessary for proper AR to result from any screen mode/etc .... Since the ASPT factory defaults matched the service code listing on my set, somehow I'm assuming(but not sure) that's the case on all of these 16x9 DA-4 chassis sets(at least ones that were manufactured around the same time as mine), and perhaps Sony maybe wanted folks to be able see a little more of the top+bottom of a 4x3 signal in Zoom mode than they did "perfectly" proper AR, but I can't say for sure, especially as I think I'm the only one to have ever commented on it here ...


As for the H+V "expansion" Zoom available for 1080i/720p signals, I've yet to come across any use for them! Since both 720p/1080i standards use perfectly square pixels, I am clueless concerning why they included this feature on a 16x9 display ??? I suppose H zoom might be useful if the signal source(such as a broadcast station) is improperly formatting video, such as sending 16x9 NTSC video and sending it "squeezed" within a 4x3 frame by "squeezing in" additional "pillar bars"(normally needed for 4x3 SD programming) within the 1080i/720p 16x9 format ... And, I have seen that happen before from a local Fox affiliate in the Pre-FOX HD "Fox High resolution Widescreen" days, but not for several years ....


----------



## Nitewatchman

Sorry for going "backwards" ...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwo504* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> can someone help me out the picture on my screen seems to be cut off on the left side. there a option to adjust the picture vertically but not horizontally.



2170D2 HSIZ and HPOS are the Horizontal size+Posistioning adjustments respectively, HSIZ is "global" except for "widezoom" and "all others" on my set(KD34XBR960), HPOS can be set seperately for 1080i "full Mode"(720p source signals are effected as well), and "all others". As I mentioned in earlier post(s) today, Adjustment of HSIZ also requires proper adjustment of 2170D1 VSIZ(global) for proper Aspect ratio to be preserved, there are also more "screen mode specific" vertical size settings available with 2170D1 ASPT.


For example -- the most basic explanation of a solution to the problem you described may be ---- a simple adjustment to HPOS+moving the picture to the "right" would cut off some portion of the right side of the picture, instead of the left if you push it to the right "far enough". Adjusting HPOS so the *same* amount of picture is "cut off" on both sides would then "center" the picture. Reducing HSIZ value would then make those "cut off" portions of the picture on both sides visable, on screen, and then reduction of VSIZ value by some amount would be necessary as well to preserve proper aspect ratio. Do keep in mind, the 2170D3 Horizontal blanking shutters(I'll talk about those in a more detailed response to your post farther below) will "hide" a portion of the picture as well, so in other words unless you turn those shutters off, if you reduce HSIZ enough, there's actually a portion of picture hidden "behind" a bit of black on the sides ...


Do keep in mind that some portion of the picture will be cut off with anything above 0% overscan, and that it's possible you might get slightly different "centering" results with the output from different input devices(DVD players, Satellite/cable STB's/etc/etc), or source signals(one TV's station's SD analog or digital 480i signal vs another). For me, all things considered, I'm happy with about 4~4.5% overscan on my set(well, except as mentioned above due to the normal screen mode "static" pillar bars which results in horizontal overscan at about 5% in "normal" screen mode, and for "HD Zoom", which does not seem to have a sufficent "HD zoom" specific picture size adjustments available, including in the MID settings .... )


Of course, as mentioned numerous times --- Make sure you write the default settings *down* for anything, and everything you change in Service menu(including the screen mode, input or "scan rate" specific settings), and also its a a very good idea that you have a good reference chart in front of you that for example, shows you which settings are screen mode/input or "scan rate"/etc. specific .... Personally, I probably would not even start without having such a chart in hand, as the settings in these sony sets' service mode are genearlly quite complex, and for lack of a better way of saying it, I think it really helps you to understand the "relationship" among different settings/controls/groups ...


A little more "in depth" attempt to answer to your question, follows, but you can certianly find much more and more "in depth" info relating to your question scattered throughout this thread :


I would probably start by adjusting VSIZ/HSIZ and HPOS as necessary for desired or "acceptable" overscan and proper screen centering starting with a 480i(4x3 for 4x3 sets, 16x9 pattern for 16x9 sets) source signal along with an appropriate overscan test pattern from DVD, or/and with use via some of the internal "QM" section 480i test patterns(cross hatch patterns may have some useful "markings" for you along with the cross hatch boxes to check linearity), and then if/as necessary in screen mode/scan rate independant manner adjust(carefully!) the necessary MID1~3 screen mode or resolution specific *posistioning* controls as needed for proper centering for all used inputs/scan rates, screen modes/etc .....


I also like test patterns with cross-hatch pattern and circles in different parts of the screen when doing these sorts of things to more easily check(and in some cases "measure") geometry, linearity issues -- moreso perhaps when making adjustments to the 2170D1/2 controls to adjust for screen geometry(for straight "lines") or linearity(each of the boxes in crosshatch pattern should pretty much be the same "size", horizontally and vertically) adjustments, but more specifically as it relates to what we are talking about here, to make sure proper aspect ratio is preserved ...


personally, I'd do as much as I could "globally" and in 2170D1/2, first(in which case only very small adjustments to MID1~3 *posistioning* controls should be necessary in a scan rate/input/etc. specific manner). Keep in mind, even though these should probably be needed sparingly(if at all) as well, in 2170D1 you also have available ASPT which effects Vertical size, and SCRL which effects vertical posistioning, both of those in a somewhat screen mode(or in some cases resolution dependant) specific fashion ....


Before doing any of the above, however you might also :


#1)want to make sure the raster is properly centered horizontally with 2170D2 HCNT using the procedure described earlier several times in this thread as well as in service manual - Basically, you reduce HSIZ temporarily so you can see the "true" edges of the raster .... don't forget to temporarily "turn off" the Horizontal blanking shutters in 2170D3 (Hblk to 0, temporarily) and temporarily set 2170P2 AGNG to "1" to also ensure you're actually seeing the "true" edges of raster while your centering or checking it's centering! FWIW, which isn't much - HCNT was adjusted properly for centering the raster at the factory on my set, and also, FWIW - *caution* -- on my set, adjustment of HCNT *does* effect H linearity and screen geometry to a certian extent as well - so, if you need to adjust HCNT it, it's possible other 2170D1/2 settings involving screen geometry may need some adjustment for best results as well ..


#2) Make sure VPOS is properly adjusted for screen centering .. Do note there is no seperate raster/"picture" adjustment for Vertical posistioning as is the case with HCNT/HPOS, and you might also want to be careful here(and with vertical size/overscan adjustments as well) concerning SD signals from broadcast/cable sources with the line 21 closed captioning/data/etc. embedded in the "top" part of the frame. NOTE: Also, As noted earlier, at least on my set, I've observed adjustment of VPOS does effect screen geometry slightly, in a manner somewhat similar to how 2170D2 PPHA effects geometry ... Luckily, however, as was the case with HCNT, on my set, VPOS seemed to be properly adjusted at the factory ....


Concerning #1 and #2 above --- Especially if you are reducing overscan, some adjustment to the "blanking shutters" in 2170D3 may be necessary (Horizontal : LBLK/RBLK, Vertical : TBLK/BBLK) - Those are there to keep light from electron beam from striking edge of tube and causing reflections on screen, 2170D3 HBLK=0 turns "off" the horizontal blanking shutters completely, as does 2170D3 VBLK=0 for the vertical blanking shutters ... Again, of course, you'll want the blanking shutters "off" when centering the raster .... Once you have overscan set as desired, you'll want those shutters "active" only a bit beyond(a few extra "ticks" or so in LBLK/RBLK or TBLK/BBLK) the edge of the visable portion of the screen ... you don't of course want the shutters to "blank" any portion of the visable screen, or to "fool you" into thinking the edge of the "picture" is somewhere where it isn't ...


Hope something in there helps


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> keeneye & Ironkaw
> 
> I'm fairly certain that the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are resolution-specific, and not global. So you can use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 to adjust your 480i 4:3 window, and that should have no effect on your 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 settings for 1080i/720p 16:9...
> 
> 
> EDIT/ADDITION: keeneye is correct in the post above -- once you establish the size of your 4:3 "window" with 2170D-2, you can use the horizontal controls in MID2 (or I believe MID3 in the XBR970) to squish or stretch the picture within the "window" in order to maintain proper aspect ratio.



I'm quoting my own previous post, to let you all know that the information I gave is false. I hope nobody has followed my advice and made a mistake. 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 ARE global, like Nitewatchman said, and NOT resolution-specific like I indicated earlier. And what was I talking about MID3? There's no horizontal controls in MID3.


I guess that's what I get for posting from work instead of going home and consulting my notes before posting. I apologize for the misinformation.


----------



## G-Bull

*SERVICE MENU ADJUSTMENTS SHOULD ONLY BE MADE BY QUALIFIED TECHNICIANS. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. WRITE DOWN ALL "FACTORY" SETTINGS BEFORE YOU MAKE ANY CHANGES TO ANY SETTING IN THE SERVICE MENU.*

_Note: These instructions assume that you've already made picture size and geometry adjustments with 2170D-1, 2170D-2, and the "shutters" adjustments with 2170D-3. Your TV is *almost* just like you want it, except for the fact that your 4:3 "window" seems to be the wrong size - your "black bars" are too big (or too small).
_

This is the only way that I know to increase the size of the 4:3 "window" (and decrease the size of the 4:3 "black bars") on a 34XBR970. It should also work on the other sets (34XBR960, 34XS955, 34HS420, etc.). This procedure involves changing MID2 horizontal size values, which is not an official recommended procedure. The service manual recommends that geometry and size adjustments be made with 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 ONLY. The service manual does not say to make any changes to MID2 when adjusting picture size. However, I think this is the only way to change the 4:3 window size, and I don't notice any decrease in picture quality or resolution as a result of making these changes. Personally, I can't imagine why Sony would make the MID2 settings adjustable if you're not actually supposed to be able to change them in the first place, but that's another matter. I doubt any problems can be caused by changing the MID2 values.


Anyway, here goes. This will take some time...


1) Adjust vertical size / position / overscan using 2170D-1. Do not use any MID controls to adjust the size of the image vertically. Vertical size adjustments with MID controls have an adverse effect on picture quality, as has been outlined elsewhere in this thread.


2) With a 480i 4:3 cross-hatch test pattern on the screen, use HSIZ in 2170D-2 to increase or decrease the size of the 4:3 window until it is the desired size. Use a tape measure to be sure that you have a mathematically correct 4:3 window. Use HPOS to center the window. Since these are global settings, they will also affect the horizontal size and position of your 16:9 1080i/720p picture, as well as all of your inputs. (You'll fix these individually in step #5 below, but first we'll finish adjusting your 480i 4:3 window).


3) With the MID2 horizontal settings, adjust the size and position of the image so you have the proper amount of overscan (it should match the amount of overscan you have on the top and bottom of the screen). This will not move or change the size of the black bars, but it will squish or stretch the image within the 4:3 window. A cross-hatch test pattern is important here, because that's really the only way to know for sure that you've got the correct aspect ratio. These MID2 horizontal setting values on the 34XBR970 are DHHP (horizontal position) and DHHS (horizontal size), but the other sets have different names for these MID2 settings.


This completes the adjustment of the 4:3 window, which should now be exactly like you want it.


4) Now put a 16:9 (1080i or 720p) image on the screen, and adjust the 2170D-3 horizontal shutters (LBLK & RBLK) so they're *just barely* off the edge of the screen.


5) Now comes the fun part. When you made the 2170D-2 adjustments in step #2 above, you adjusted a global setting, which had an adverse effect on the horizontal size and position of your 16:9 1080i/720p picture (as well as your 480p picture, and all your other inputs and resolutions). These each now need to be adjusted individually, again with the MID2 horizontal controls. With a 1080i 16:9 test pattern on the screen, adjust the MID2 horizontal controls to give the correct amount of overscan (just like you did in step #3). Once you're satisfied with your 1080i overscan, put a 720p 16:9 pattern on the screen, and do the same MID2 horizontal control adjustments. Then put up a 480p test pattern and do the same MID2 adjustments. Then switch to another input and do 1080i, 720p, 480i, 480p, then do another input.


6) Finally, eventually, you'll be finished. All that work just to fix a minor annoyance with the size of your 4:3 window...


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *g-bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm quoting my own previous post .... 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 ARE global ...



You're the man! Seriously -- .. Both concerning your "stepping up to the plate" on this, and, also, I've read a number of your posts(including in other threads), and appreciate your work+efforts as I think you have provided much excellent info for folks .....


Certianly, I think we must do our best to post accurate info here, but We *all* make mistakes, *everyone* does -- it's NOT a big deal, really, at least as far as I'm concerned ... And, it's not as if we are getting a paycheck for it










I for one certianly appreciate when my mistakes, or any unintended inaccurate info I might provide are corrected .... Well, usually ... after all, noone likes a smart *ss, and unfortunetly I perceive I may have come across looking like one of those every now and then(probably moreso elsewhere than on this thread, but I don't know) even though that was never my intent, I certianly also hope it didn't come out that way in this case ....



> Quote:
> .... posting from work instead of going home and consulting my notes before posting.



Oh, I know where you're coming from, there ... For example, in the very posts of mine you referred to I had to go back and make several corrections, even though I had a PDF with the service code chart open right in front of me! (For instance, I had originally posted HSIZ/HPOS was 2170D2 instead of 2170D1, and I'd also noticed typos where I meant to refer to "BBLK" but typed "VBLK" instead etc, and it's certianly possible there are still some mistakes in there!


Can't speak for anyone else, but, for me, It really does at times, take a LOT of time and effort to discuss+post as accurately as possible about some of this stuff, and/or in some cases to "verify" comments/posts with actual experimentation/testing -- I recall Ken making a comment once via PM, and his word for it was "exhausting", which, at times I've also found to be an accurate assesment ..


Which is one reason why I think most folks really aren't being *nasty* when they say "search this thread"/etc. in regards to questions or comments which have been went over time and time again on earlier occasions ..... And, in this case, we even have a nice "table of contents" to refer to in the first post!


OTOH --- I also agree with Gribble's recent comments regarding: If this thread is to be useful, it has to keep going, and be "available" for folks who want to post new questions/comments ...


One reason why that is true is because if it isn't posted to for a certian period of time(probably 6 months or a year or so), it will likely go to the archive section, in which case it will likely still be accessable in some shape or form, but if I recall correctly with all the referenced links to specific posts probably broken ....


Basically, though, when possible, personally I Just happen to think it's best if folks do their best to research, "decipher" and search for the stuff they are looking for in all the posts which have come before in this thread, first before asking questions/making comments ..... I realize that's a bit of a "tall order" I've went through it myself, and it can get *very* confusing at times --- and, some of it can certianly be difficult to decipher and come out with the "right answers", but oftentimes it's the "back and forth" between folks which I think *can* and does make it more comprehensible ....


Ok, blah blah blah, Yadda yadda yadda, enough of that ...


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyway, here goes. This will take some time...



Excellent post! Suppose to some extent, I also have to eat a little "crow" concerning some of my earlier posts from yesterday on this ... Went to try to pull some of that out and "quote myself", but it didn't work out very well given the context involved, so I'll attempt to address that, hopefully in a sufficent way with additional comments in this post ...


Specifically and most notably perhaps, where I mentioned I thought some sort of independant "vertical size" adjustment for "normal" screen mode would be necessary along with H-size adjustment in MID3 ... I was of course also wrong about how I "remembered" the MID2 480i DRHS Horizontal size control worked (which I did note at the time was possible) ....



> Quote:
> This is the only way that I know to increase the size of the 4:3 "window" (and decrease the size of the 4:3 "black bars") on a 34XBR970.



You're right .. I Studied the procedure you detail, and tried some quick experiments with it in the SM, and I think it should work to effectively, "independently" increase size of the "4x3 window"/decrease the size of the pillarbars on the 16x9 DA-4 chassis sets, while still having a way to preserve proper aspect ratio for all of the "screen modes" and resolutions ... I didn't go as far as experimenting with it yet, but I suspect it might get a little more tricky to properly adjust the MID H-Size controls for the twin-view/index/etc. features on the models equipped with those ...


I suppose I was also a little too "persistant" in earlier posts concerning my thoughts about not being able to "adjust" the size of the 4x3 "window" or "reduce" the width of the pillar bars while at the same time preserving proper aspect ratio for all screen modes/etc, and perhaps I have to eat a little crow for that as well ... However, not that it's really necesssary, but just "for the record", I mentioned it a few times in a couple of different responses, and should pointout as I hoped was apparent I was referring in each case to the situation withthe MID2 H-size adjustments "out of the picture" ... while I did specifically state that was the case on one occasion, I wasn't specific about that on every occasion I brought it up ....


Also, Unless there's something else we haven't found yet(which I doubt, but I've been wrong before), I think you're right ... That *has* to be the only way ...



> Quote:
> Personally, I can't imagine why Sony would make the MID2 settings adjustable if you're not actually supposed to be able to change them in the first place,



Well ... Keep in mind I'm not necessarily specifically addressing the MID2 settings here, but I don't think a number of these SM settings are necessarily "supposed" to be adjusted(including by qualified service technicians) as far as Sony's intent was concerned, just because they happen to be there and "adjustable" ...


For instance, there are certianly (at least) several settings you can adjust within SM to a very "undesirable" value, if you're not careful, to the point you can't "adjust them" to even be able to "see" what's on the screen (including the SM "info" display) to be able to adjust them back so your set will "work" .. Take "RGBS=0" for example ... IF you were to accidently "Write" the RGBS=0 value, and inadvertenly move to somewhere else within SM, and not be able to "get back" to RGBS with the appropriate Key presses .... That's a problem, since RGBS=0 turns ALL THREE guns off, and all you have, truly is a "blank screen" ... It's also not too difficult to find adjustments of settings/values which will result in loss of sync, and nothing but a "garbled mess" on the screen .....


Another one ...2171CXA FIXS ... Ok, it doesn't necessarily allways "garble" the entire screen, but adjusting this to a value other than the *exact* value required for the specific resolution/input involved certianly doesn't provide anything useful ... This is perhaps a good example, I think as it demonstrates that it's probably not there for "adjustment" purposes, and instead, I would speculate is likely there only because different values are necessary for different resolutions/input sources, even though one would think this sort of thing could be (for lack of a better description that comes to mind) "hard-coded" in a sense ....


As I seem to recall, there are also even other "worse" examples, but, at present I can't seem to recall the specifics involved in a sufficent manner ..


What I'm saying more than anything else here is ... I think you are wise to include the cautions in your post as you did, as we really just don't have any detailed, good info from Sony(or anyone else) concerning all of what is exactly involved concerning what some of these controls do, or what their *intention* was regarding adjustments/etc. of these controls ... OTOH, we have a great deal of info for many settings without much real help from Sony, and also know those are "safe" adjustments .. As one example, thanks to a few folks on this thread(Ken and ADU come to mind), concerning say, the many adjustments available with MID5 and P21703 "image processing" controls ...


Also, concerning those MID H-size adjustments ... while I trust gribble's word, (and in some cases others who have commented on it) concerning his "comparisions" with 2 sets sitting side by side regarding adjustment of MID Horizontal size controls and lack of any noticable degradation of Picture quality(I assume he tested that with appropriate test patterns, and different scan rates/etc?) ... I also realize it's the best info we have on the subject, and I still think, at this point mostly regarding Ken's findings on this as it pertains to MID *vertical* size adjustments, specifically, its probably a good idea to be "cautious"+for folks to fully understand and carefully consider whether or not it's "worth it", or necessary or desired to make this(these)adjustments to the size controls .... At least in regards to "public" discussion of it on a forum such as this, as, you may have noticed by now, it's not all that difficult for folks to become "confused" about such things .... Especially perhaps those folks who may only be reading the last several posts of the thread .... Again, as I've posted previously, in this case not because it's something that's likely to "damage" anyone's set, or cause problems in that sense ....



> Quote:
> I doubt any problems can be caused by changing the MID2 values.



I don't really consider this as a "problem", but Believe it or not -- oddly enough I noticed an inital, quick adjustment of MID2 DRHS (Horizontal size adjustment) by about 10~12 clicks or so(480i via RF input) in fact *did* in fact cause my set to lose sync -- in other words to cause just a jumbled "mess" of "junk" to appear on screen .... it was no problem to "move it back" using the "3" key and regain proper sync, but perhaps it might be wise to do that "slowly" ... Don't know what was up with that, but I could not reproduce the issue(I didn't try very hard or spend much time on it, either, however)



> Quote:
> 3) With the MID2 horizontal settings, adjust the size and position of the image ........ These MID2 horizontal setting values on the 34XBR970 are DHHP (horizontal position) and DHHS (horizontal size), but the other sets have different names for these MID2 settings.



Yep ... I tried it ... Again, I was wrong/remembered that one wrong in my last post ... Seems to work nicely for this .. They're MID2 DRHP/DRHS on my XBR960, btw ...



> Quote:
> 5) Now comes the fun part. When you made the 2170D-2 adjustments in step #2 above, you adjusted a global setting, which had an adverse effect on the horizontal size and position of your 16:9 1080i/720p picture (as well as your 480p picture, and all your other inputs and resolutions). These each now need to be adjusted individually, again with the MID2 horizontal controls. With a 1080i 16:9 test pattern on the screen, adjust the MID2 horizontal controls to give the correct amount of overscan (just like you did in step #3). Once you're satisfied with your 1080i overscan, put a 720p 16:9 pattern on the screen, and do the same MID2 horizontal control adjustments. Then put up a 480p test pattern and do the same MID2 adjustments. Then switch to another input and do 1080i, 720p, 480i, 480p, then do another input.



Well, on KD34XBR960 at least, the 480p 16x9/720p/1080i MID3 Horizontal size/posistioning adjustments are actually located in MID3 -- Not sure if you had a typo there, or if it's different on the XBR970 ...



> Quote:
> (from #5) - as well as your 480p picture, and all your other inputs and resolutions).



Of course -- I don't think you mentioned it, but (again, on XBR960 at least) there are input specific adjustments for 480i source signals and "normal" screen mode in MID2 .... for :


480i V5/V6 - Component inputs.


YC - (note: from previous adjustments I had made for DRHP on my set, I believe this one includes NTSC signals from S-video, composiste AND the RF input),


480i HDMI/ATSC - note - HDMI from the HDMI input, and of course "ATSC" actually refers to digital TV received(well MPEG2 streams to be more specific) via the set's internal ATSC/QAM receiver, with antenna or cable connected to the "RF" inputs on back of the set ... even the service code charts from sony can be cryptic confusing at times!


-----------------


Also, hopefully this isn't too "repetitive" as I mentioned it, earlier, but for sets so equipped, I believe one would likely also have to adjust the MID Horizontal ize adjustment controls for "twin-view"/"index"/"favorities/freeze" features etc, which could be a little more tricky than the other "standard" screen modes(which all fit under the adjustments listed in the service code chart as "single" BTW)... I haven't tried it yet, but given that for instance, the two "twin view" windows each only occupy certian "portions" of the screen, adjustment with test patterns for proper aspect ratio/overscan becomes more difficult .... If I'm thinking about it correctly, however, I think it would still "work", you'd just be looking at "smaller" cross-hatch patterns and or "circles"/etc ...


Also -- regarding all those Twin-view/etc. features -- You have a LOT more adjustments to deal with, including apparently in a "source signal resolution dependant manner"(and for example, I actually do use Twin View quite a bit, so I'd need to adjust those for proper AR, and I'd probably want to do all those other "features" as well, as I do use most of them occasionally) --- hearas, If you take a "hands off" of MID size controls "approach", no such indpendent adjustments are necessary ... proper aspect ratio+overscan(except that slight input/scan rate specific MID adjustments may be necessary in some cases for proper centering) equivilent to your other "single" screen modes results for all those "features" with everything else) with a single adjustment to the much more "global" HSIZ and VSIZ 2170D adjustments .... Well, as I probably repeated too many times, yesterday, that's actually 2 adjustments needed for HSIZ, one for "widezoom" and one for "all others" ....



> Quote:
> 6) Finally, eventually, you'll be finished. All that work just to fix a minor annoyance with the size of your 4:3 window...



Again nice work on this! I do really appreciate someone has properly addressed my comments/questions on this from last summer, and in short, found a way to do what I was looking for at the time!


Should probably note however that For me right now, the extra ".5%~1" horizontal overscan in "normal" mode caused by the "side bars" hiding the edges of the pic is not quite "annoying enough" for me to go to all that work, and add in some small reservation about adjusting MID2 horizontal size controls(more because it generally seems unnessary given the "work" involved for as you say "small" annoyances), and it might not be in any case ...


However ... should probably also explain -- The reason why it was a little more of an annoyance 6 months ago was, the right side of ID bugs for SD digital services (subchannels) from one of my local PBS affilaites were getting "cut off" given the way they were placing them ... For instance, one of those bugs says "ThinkTV 16 Prime" .... A portion of the "e" was cut off, and for some reason, it was more annoying for me than one might expect ... They have since adjusted the placement of those graphics so that they are all within the 5% "safe area" commonly observed by broadcasters, so I have no current reason for it to be a "significant enough" annoyance ... Of course, OTOH it's also probably not too difficult to come aross such "annoyances" If you look closely enough for them ....


In any case, I'm sure there are others who probably do have "significant enough" annoyances to the extent I'm sure your work on this will also be much appreciated ...


My that post was long! Sorry about that, probably a lot of spelling errors as well, sorry didn't get around to the "spell check" ... It's too early AM for me to be doing this!


----------



## Ironkaw

G-Bull, While I really appreciate your info, I already tried that on my 970, and it won't work for me. I can adjust the 4:3 window on normal TV, but then my 1080i 16:9 is way too wide, and I can't tweek the mid2 adjustments to compensate, because after only a few steps, the picture goes out of sync, and it is just a bunch of garbage on the screen. My NTSC 4:3 TV picture is already wide enough, the problem is that the masking bars are covering up too much of it. If I put a full screen 4:3 movie in my DVD, it plays fine because the DVD player is sending the 4:3 picture with the masking bars to the set as a wide screen image, but when I watch broadcast 4:3 NTSC TV, the set adds the masking bars, and they aren't set right. The just simply cover up way too much of the picture. Actually over 2 inches too much on each side. What you say would make sense to me if there was a way to widen the 16:9 mode independent of the 4:3 mode, but on my set if I use MID2 to widen it more than a couple steps, the screen goes crazy, so it's not an option. I just need to open up that fricking 4:3 window to see the picture that is already wide enough to start with. If anyone has any other ideas, please let me know. Thanks alot.


Chris


----------



## lazyline

Wow, does reading this thread give anyone else a terrible headache? Ugh. I won't trouble you guys with my problems just yet. I've seen the same questions I have crop up in my searching (although everytime someone says "This has been answered many times before elsewhere"), so I'll try to work this out on my own first.


A quickie though: after futzing around in the 2170D-1 and 2 with the global (wish I had known they were global at the time







) settings, I fixed my overscan problems. Now, however, the bottom half inch of the screen is very blurry. Everything slants from bottom left to top right at a 45 degree angle (think forward slash on your keyboard) across the bottom of my screen within that half inch area.


Any ideas what setting I should look at to fix this? Should I just position that part off screen?


----------



## ptchristensen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lazyline* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow, does reading this thread give anyone else a terrible headache? Ugh. I won't trouble you guys with my problems just yet. I've seen the same questions I have crop up in my searching (although everytime someone says "This has been answered many times before elsewhere"), so I'll try to work this out on my own first.
> 
> 
> A quickie though: after futzing around in the 2170D-1 and 2 with the global (wish I had known they were global at the time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) settings, I fixed my overscan problems. Now, however, the bottom half inch of the screen is very blurry. Everything slants from bottom left to top right at a 45 degree angle (think forward slash on your keyboard) across the bottom of my screen within that half inch area.
> 
> 
> Any ideas what setting I should look at to fix this? Should I just position that part off screen?



Searching this thread for the word "slant" might be an idea...!


----------



## lazyline




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ptchristensen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Searching this thread for the word "slant" might be an idea...!



That returns 4 hits, one of which was your post. I'm now going to look into blanking or overscan to fix it, which is what I suggested myself.


I guess you've been reading this thread for a while, and are tired of people asking the same questions over and over, but this is hard stuff for the uninitiated.


Half the time I read about a problem that I have as well, but don't understand the explanation, and the other half someone like you chimes in with a helpful "search!" or "this has been answered before!".


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lazyline* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow, does reading this thread give anyone else a terrible headache? Ugh. I won't trouble you guys with my problems just yet. I've seen the same questions I have crop up in my searching (although everytime someone says "This has been answered many times before elsewhere"), so I'll try to work this out on my own first.
> 
> 
> A quickie though: after futzing around in the 2170D-1 and 2 with the global (wish I had known they were global at the time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) settings, I fixed my overscan problems. Now, however, the bottom half inch of the screen is very blurry. Everything slants from bottom left to top right at a 45 degree angle (think forward slash on your keyboard) across the bottom of my screen within that half inch area.
> 
> 
> Any ideas what setting I should look at to fix this? Should I just position that part off screen?



Look for a setting called PSTP in the group MID3 of the service menu. That should fix it.


----------



## lazyline




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Look for a setting called PSTP in the group MID3 of the service menu. That should fix it.



Thanks G-Bull







.


There's a really great attachment in post #409, which is an old service manual. It goes through a list of what to adjust, and what it does, with great illustrations. I think all of the categories have changed for the newer TVs, or at least they're different on my 970, but it should help any other newbies like me.


I think I'm going to go through this weekend and try to find some test patterns, and try to get everything looking decent.


Maybe you could give me your opinion on my plan. I had bad overscan issues with my PS3 (basically any signal in 720p or 1080i over component or hdmi). I fixed it using the global settings in 2170D-1 and 2, but then realized that my Wii (480p over component) had too little overscan.


I plan to revert my global settings back to their defaults, and then adjust geometry and postition through MID-1, 2 or 3 (not sure what it is on the 970). I will locate a 1080i test pattern, which I will probably have to display using my upconverting Oppo over HDMI. Then I will repeat using a 720p/i test pattern, also displayed over my Oppo.


I know there's more I could be doing, but this is where I plan to start. The overscan issues are pretty bad, so after I get them fixed, I can see where I stand and make a new plan.


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ironkaw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> G-Bull, While I really appreciate your info, I already tried that on my 970, and it won't work for me. I can adjust the 4:3 window on normal TV, but then my 1080i 16:9 is way too wide, and I can't tweek the mid2 adjustments to compensate, because after only a few steps, the picture goes out of sync, and it is just a bunch of garbage on the screen. My NTSC 4:3 TV picture is already wide enough, the problem is that the masking bars are covering up too much of it. If I put a full screen 4:3 movie in my DVD, it plays fine because the DVD player is sending the 4:3 picture with the masking bars to the set as a wide screen image, but when I watch broadcast 4:3 NTSC TV, the set adds the masking bars, and they aren't set right. The just simply cover up way too much of the picture. Actually over 2 inches too much on each side. What you say would make sense to me if there was a way to widen the 16:9 mode independent of the 4:3 mode, but on my set if I use MID2 to widen it more than a couple steps, the screen goes crazy, so it's not an option. I just need to open up that fricking 4:3 window to see the picture that is already wide enough to start with. If anyone has any other ideas, please let me know. Thanks alot.
> 
> 
> Chris



Hi Chris. If I'm understanding you correctly, the procedure I outlined would work "in theory," but in actual practice the MID2 horizontal size settings won't let you change the size of the image enough before it goes out-of-sync. If I recall (and again, I don't have my notes with me this morning so this is from memory), there's actually another horizontal size setting in MID1 - I don't remember the exact name but it follows the format HS for Horizontal Size.


I think if you make a change to that MID1 setting (reduce by maybe ten clicks), it will free up enough "wiggle room" so that you can follow my previous instructions and fine-tune with the MID2 to get it just right.


Also, if I recall correctly, this MID1 horizontal size setting is a global setting, and not an input-and-resolution-specific setting. But like I said I don't have my notes with me.


Good luck! And, of course, be sure you write everything down first so if you have to put everything "back" you can!

_Edit: The MID1 setting I referred to is MDHS. According to my notes, it's not exactly a global setting, but the changes made under each resolution (1080i/720p, 480p, 480i, 480i "full," etc.) will stick for that resolution for all the inputs. So a change made to this setting at 1080i on the HDMI input will also change 1080i for the component inputs, etc., but it won't affect the setting for 480i. Each resolution will have to be set individually._


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lazyline* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks G-Bull
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> There's a really great attachment in post #409, which is an old service manual. It goes through a list of what to adjust, and what it does, with great illustrations. I think all of the categories have changed for the newer TVs, or at least they're different on my 970, but it should help any other newbies like me.
> 
> 
> I think I'm going to go through this weekend and try to find some test patterns, and try to get everything looking decent.
> 
> 
> Maybe you could give me your opinion on my plan. I had bad overscan issues with my PS3 (basically any signal in 720p or 1080i over component or hdmi). I fixed it using the global settings in 2170D-1 and 2, but then realized that my Wii (480p over component) had too little overscan.
> 
> 
> I plan to revert my global settings back to their defaults, and then adjust geometry and postition through MID-1, 2 or 3 (not sure what it is on the 970). I will locate a 1080i test pattern, which I will probably have to display using my upconverting Oppo over HDMI. Then I will repeat using a 720p/i test pattern, also displayed over my Oppo.
> 
> 
> I know there's more I could be doing, but this is where I plan to start. The overscan issues are pretty bad, so after I get them fixed, I can see where I stand and make a new plan.



2170D-1 and 2170D-2 (and 2170D-3) are probably the most important settings of all. All of the geometry adjustments can only be made with these settings. By "geometry" I mean making straight lines straight, reducing bowing, pincushion, curving lines, etc. MID2 can be used only to adjust size and position, but none of the essential geometry adjustments.


I suggest you make your primary adjustments with the 2170D global settings. Set it up with some overscan, because broadcast TV (and apparently the Wii) require some overscan. Personally, I have mine set to about 3% overscan. Some people like 5%, which is too much for my taste, and some people like 1%, but I like 3%. That's entirely up to you. Then, once you have your global settings "right," switch to your PS3 input and use MID2 size and position settings to reduce overscan for that input and resolution to near-0%.


That's essentially the plan I've followed when I set up my XBR970. I have an xbox360, so I've run into the same sort of problems you're getting with overscan and your PS3. I say it's "essentially" the plan I followed, because I also did the "resizing the 4:3 window" procedure that I outlined a few posts back. But I'd call that an "advanced" procedure, since it affects a lot of things, and involves a lot of adjustments.


Also, depending on your PC video card, you might be able to hook your PC up to your TV, and use that for test patterns, rather than your DVD player. My video card uses a DVI output, so I went to radio shack and bought a DVI to HDMI adapter and use that. That way I can change resolution to 1080i or 720p or 480p easily to make adjustments.


Remember, most importantly, write everything down first, before you go changing things. And while some settings are global, some of the settings are input- and resolution-specific, so you'll have to write down the settings for everything you're chaning (the HDMI input at 1080i will have different values than HDMI input at 720p, which will have different values than the component inputs, etc.). So write down EVERYTHING that you change, just in case you have to put something back to how it was before you started messing with it.


Good luck!


----------



## lazyline

Okay, awesome. I know have a much better understanding of what I need to be doing. When you talk about % overscan, I assume that is a label on certain test patterns?


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lazyline* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Okay, awesome. I know have a much better understanding of what I need to be doing. When you talk about % overscan, I assume that is a label on certain test patterns?



Yes, there are test patterns made specifically for testing (and adjusting) overscan, that have lines at various percentages. For example, the test pattern will be a 1920x1080 image (which is a 16:9 1080i image), and there will be a box like a border that goes around the pattern, where 95% of the image is within the border and 5% is outside the border. So if you use this pattern and adjust your screen so that border is just at the edge of your screen, you know that 5% is getting "cut off" all around your screen.


Most have more than one box or border, which are labeled 1%, 3%, 5%, etc. so you can decide how much you want to overscan.


----------



## lazyline

If I used test patterns from Avia and DVE, and displayed them through my Oppo upconverted to 1080i, would that work? Or would I need to find a "true" 1080i test pattern?


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lazyline* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I used test patterns from Avia and DVE, and displayed them through my Oppo upconverted to 1080i, would that work? Or would I need to find a "true" 1080i test pattern?



The upconverting DVD player should work just fine. I'm not sure what patterns are on those discs, but as long as they've got one with marks for checking overscan, you'll be set.


Doesn't the PS3 play DVDs? If so you could use one of those test discs in the PS3 when you're adjusting for your PS3 input...


----------



## lazyline




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Doesn't the PS3 play DVDs? If so you could use one of those test discs in the PS3 when you're adjusting for your PS3 input...



It does, but it doesn't upconvert, so the test image would be displayed at 480p. I figure the Oppo hooked up using the same HDMI input the PS3 uses would be needed, since some of these controls depend on the signal (1080i, 720, etc).


I think.


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lazyline* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It does, but it doesn't upconvert, so the test image would be displayed at 480p. I figure the Oppo hooked up using the same HDMI input the PS3 uses would be needed, since some of these controls depend on the signal (1080i, 720, etc).
> 
> 
> I think.



Yes, if you use MID2 to adjust the size for the PS3 input, you'll need to have a source that matches the PS3 games (which I suppose would be 1080i).


Say, if you go with what I suggested earlier, and do your preliminary geometry and overscan adjustments with 2170D, and only change MID2 when you have to in order to reduce the overscan for the PS3 input, you will need a geometry & overscan test pattern for the 2170D adjustments. But you don't necessarily even need a test pattern for that final step with MID2 - since the goal is to have as much of the PS3 image as possible on the screen, you might just want to use a PS3 game or "desktop" (or whatever Sony calls it on the PS3) and adjust it so the edge of the image is just at (or just barely past) the edge of the screen. Since all MID2 does is change size and position, you don't necessarily need to even have a test pattern up, since when you're using MID2 on your PS3 input you'll be shooting for near-0% overscan (so you see the whole image).


----------



## lazyline




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Say, if you go with what I suggested earlier, and do your preliminary geometry and overscan adjustments with 2170D, and only change MID2 when you have to in order to reduce the overscan for the PS3 input, you will need a geometry & overscan test pattern for the 2170D adjustments. But you don't necessarily even need a test pattern for that final step with MID2 - since the goal is to have as much of the PS3 image as possible on the screen, you might just want to use a PS3 game or "desktop" (or whatever Sony calls it on the PS3) and adjust it so the edge of the image is just at (or just barely past) the edge of the screen. Since all MID2 does is change size and position, you don't necessarily need to even have a test pattern up, since when you're using MID2 on your PS3 input you'll be shooting for near-0% overscan (so you see the whole image).



That's a very good point. If I correct the geometry in 2170D menus, that should correct the geometry over ALL inputs (right?), leaving only size and position to be corrected on a by input basis.


Which, as you suggested, I could easily do in the PSP XMB (home screen @ 1080i) and a game (720p).


Thanks G-Bull, you're my hero







.


----------



## fullmetal22

Hello all. I'm a proud owner of a 30xs955. Its been really great so far but one problem that has been bugging me is the amount of overscan. I have only two things hooked up to the tv. An Oppo dvd player via hdmi and set to 480p and a xbox 360 set to 1080i via component. This thread can be rather daunting to a newb such as myself. What specifically do I need to go to in the service menu to adjust for overscan on these two items? Is there a way to adjust overscan without screwing up geometry? Thanks for your help


----------



## justsc

Look to Post #3 in this thread for how to access and navigate the SM. Then go to post #421 for overscan, which will also give a pointer for further info.


----------



## hdtv_crazy

Hello Folks,


I've been trying to adjust the Pincushioning on my XBR970 and I never seem to get uniformed vertical lines throughout the screen. If I'm successful with straightening the far sides of the screen, I have too much hourglass in the middle. If I get the middle straight, then the edges are too rounded. The control of these settings remind me of manipulating Bezier curves in a CAD drafting software package. One setting has a lot of influence on previous settings and it can drive you a little nutz trying to fine tune this in small steps. Is there a sequence you should set MPIN, PIN, UCP, and LCP? Or is there one setting that should be more predominate for course setting and others for fine tuning? Or is this just a widescreen CRT limitation with vertical lines not being parrallel across the whole screen?



Thanks


----------



## winman

Extremely new at this.


Week and a half ago, picture developed significant pincushion problem (albeit not equal) that was never evident on tv for almost 4 years. There has not been any change in associated equipment etc. Only change was new stand and very gentle moving of behemoth 206 lb tv. Although pincushion is inward, there is an exaggerated slight bow further increase inwards just below upper corners. This is evident only when in letterboxing is present. Plus some geometrical issues with size of left and right letterboxing is also evedint.


Both HD and standard channels as well as on DVD with both component and DVI inputs. Although there are a lot of postings on service menu etc. Is this more likely a hardware issue?

*Any help would be greatly appreciated.*


As well there is a persistant aggrevation of evident fixed horizontal lines with two being lower in the television and one higher up sort of like this. Understand these are apperatures...can this be reduced in terms of visibility.


___________


___________

___________


Thanks in advance...


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *winman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Extremely new at this.
> 
> 
> Week and a half ago, picture developed significant pincushion problem (albeit not equal) that was never evident on tv for almost 4 years. There has not been any change in associated equipment etc. Only change was new stand and very gentle moving of behemoth 206 lb tv. Although pincushion is inward, there is an exaggerated slight bow further increase inwards just below upper corners. This is evident only when in letterboxing is present. Plus some geometrical issues with size of left and right letterboxing is also evedint.
> 
> 
> Both HD and standard channels as well as on DVD with both component and DVI inputs. Although there are a lot of postings on service menu etc. Is this more likely a hardware issue?
> 
> *Any help would be greatly appreciated.*
> 
> 
> As well there is a persistant aggrevation of evident fixed horizontal lines with two being lower in the television and one higher up sort of like this. Understand these are apperatures...can this be reduced in terms of visibility.
> 
> 
> ___________
> 
> 
> ___________
> 
> ___________
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance...



If all of this happened immediately after moving the set, I would guess the move broke or shifted something in/on the tube. Did you move it while warm? The other possibility is that unplugging the set somehow reset your sevice menu. BTW, that's not supposed to happen, and I have unplugged my HS510 many times with no such consequences.


The three horizontal lines are aperture grill support wires. They should only be barely visible when brightness(black level) and picture (contrast/white level) are set correctly.


----------



## winman

Thanks raouliii


Actually this was not right after moving of set. about a week later...hopefully just a coincidence. As well again only with letterboxing, no visible picture problems with zooms etc. Have tried unplugging...turning off and on etc. for past week. No luck!!!!


really troublesome.


----------



## NextGen

The problem I have in setting the 4:3 image correctly on my set is that the MID 1, 2, and 3 groups of codes are COMPLETELY different from the ones in the service manuals listed here for the 34xs955.


So I really have no idea what the "correct" values are for my set.


For instance, my MID2 0-3 codes are not DRxx values but are DHxx values.


The MID3 group starts with something labeled YCPO instead of VDHP.


I think my model is from 2004


----------



## fred33

A long time ago, Ken posted warnings about adjusting MID levels and how that would degrade the picture. Anyone know how much degredation? Anyone know how to keep the proper ratios?


And this may be of some help to other post I have seen; as I understand it, when you receive a 1080 signal from an OTB and the pic does not fill the entire screen, the "side" bars will be smaller than if you receive a 480i signal.


P


----------



## martinb4

So I'm the idiot that doesn't listen.....


Anyways, let's just say HAD to reset the factory settings on my KV-36HS510, now my Video 5-7 (Component inputs) don't work and mostly static/sometimes flash red. Vidoe 1 hooked up through regular rca's looks fine. Anyone know which stting needs to get fixed? Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## martinb4

Can't seem to edit the last post so...


Edit: Ok, I can be more specific, I somehow did the 7-9-enter thing thinking that would restore the factory defaults. Obviously not. Anyways, after that, I did restore the defaults BUT whatever it did to the HD inputs, it did not reverse. Basically the set doesn't know how to do HD signals after releasing the NVM data. I think that's what happened, at least...


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *martinb4* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can't seem to edit the last post so...
> 
> 
> Edit: Ok, I can be more specific, I somehow did the 7-9-enter thing thinking that would restore the factory defaults. Obviously not. Anyways, after that, I did restore the defaults BUT whatever it did to the HD inputs, it did not reverse. Basically the set doesn't know how to do HD signals after releasing the NVM data. I think that's what happened, at least...



You could probably order or google around for a KV-36HS510 service manual and just copy the settings from it.


----------



## fred33

Help my confusion?


If I am attempting to make my overscan near 4 or 5%, I should input a 1080i crosshatch signal, right? (I can do this using my PC.)

Once that signal is on the screen, adjust the 2170D 1 and 2170D 2 appropriate controls to achieve the overscan desired?


Here is my confusion. Adjusting the MID controls can make the actual seen picture on the screen pallet ( 2170D settings) so large as to cut off the picture. If the MID controls are set to service manual settings (as they are on my set) then the picture I see is cut off on all the sides. So therefore, if I input a 1980i signal from my PC it will show overscan by different percentages on the top and bottom, and I will not be able to see the full picture of the crosshatch signal.

So, I need to find a way to make sure the global settings or pallet from the global settings is not much larger than my screen. THEN I will need to adjust the MID settings to make sure the picture fits in the adjusted pallet.


That is my understanding of things. If you see something wrong or something that I am not understanding correctly, do not hesitate to correct me.


Thanks. 


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Help my confusion?
> 
> 
> If I am attempting to make my overscan near 4 or 5%, I should input a 1080i crosshatch signal, right? (I can do this using my PC.)
> 
> Once that signal is on the screen, adjust the 2170D 1 and 2170D 2 appropriate controls to achieve the overscan desired?
> 
> 
> Here is my confusion. Adjusting the MID controls can make the actual seen picture on the screen pallet ( 2170D settings) so large as to cut off the picture. If the MID controls are set to service manual settings (as they are on my set) then the picture I see is cut off on all the sides. So therefore, if I input a 1980i signal from my PC it will show overscan by different percentages on the top and bottom, and I will not be able to see the full picture of the crosshatch signal.
> 
> So, I need to find a way to make sure the global settings or pallet from the global settings is not much larger than my screen. THEN I will need to adjust the MID settings to make sure the picture fits in the adjusted pallet.
> 
> 
> That is my understanding of things. If you see something wrong or something that I am not understanding correctly, do not hesitate to correct me.
> 
> 
> Thanks. 



You should be able to make adjustments to the size and position without touching anything in MID. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that when you reduce the size of the image with 2170D-1 and 2170D-2, you're still not able to see the actual edge of your crosshatch pattern, even when you've reduced the size far enough that you should be able to see the edge. It's being cut off.


Before you make any adjustments in MID, first make sure that the "blanking shutters" in 2170D-3 aren't what's cutting off the edges of your picture. That's essentially what 2170D-3 is there to do, so if you reduce the size of the image with 2170D-1 and 2170D-2, without turning off and/or adjusting the shutters in 2170D-3, you'll get the cut-off image problem that you're describing.


----------



## fred33

Thanks G-Bull.

I had "played" with the blanking before but had not noticed it shrinking or showing more of the "picture". I was thinking mainly of the 'guns' bouncing off the side of the tube.


Now, if I can only get the geometry correct...that is things like PIN, PPHA, VANG, LANG, etc.

What a pain it is to adjust those!!!


Thanks again G-BULL


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now, if I can only get the geometry correct...that is things like PIN, PPHA, VANG, LANG, etc.
> 
> What a pain it is to adjust those!!!



Indeed it is a pain. Just make small changes, and remember that changes you make to one setting will usually affect more than one thing, so you'll have to go back and forth between the various settings more than once... Be patient. Take notes. Good luck!


----------



## martinb4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You could probably order or google around for a KV-36HS510 service manual and just copy the settings from it.




Where could I order one? No luck googeling so far....


----------



## fred33

A few questions about geometry.

What adjustments are universal...meaning they affect ALL the inputs at once.

Are the MID adjustments universal or input dependent?

If I put up a crosshatch pattern, what adjustments will stretch or shrink the image on all the "squares" at once? Meaning that all the squares in the pattern will shrink or squeeze at the same rate.


Is there a pattern that I can put on my TV that will show the degradation of the picture when I adjust some of the MID adjustments?


Thanks in advance.


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A few questions about geometry.
> 
> What adjustments are universal...meaning they affect ALL the inputs at once.
> 
> Are the MID adjustments universal or input dependent?
> 
> If I put up a crosshatch pattern, what adjustments will stretch or shrink the image on all the "squares" at once? Meaning that all the squares in the pattern will shrink or squeeze at the same rate.
> 
> 
> Is there a pattern that I can put on my TV that will show the degradation of the picture when I adjust some of the MID adjustments?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.



You have the 34XBR960, correct? I have the 34XBR970, and the available settings in MID2 and MID3 are different in our sets, so I can only answer as best I can.


First, universal geometry adjustments are done with 2170D-1 and 2170D-2. These will fix image size, bowing, stretching, pincushion, slanting, trapezoid, linearity, and all sortsa other geometry problems.


Regarding MID settings, I don't know whether this is the same on the 34XBR960 as it is on a 34XBR970. I know the "names" of the settings are different, but I don't know whether they still do the same thing or not. MID2 settings on the 34XBR970 can be adjusted to change size and position, horizontally and vertically. These settings do stretch or shrink the size of the squares at a uniform rate. These are input-specific AND resolution-specific (so 480i on input4 is separate from 1080i on input4 which is separate from 1080i on input5, etc). If you have a test pattern with a black background and horizontal lines spaced every quarter inch or half inch or so, you'll see some of the horizontal lines become brighter or thicker as you make changes to the MID2 vertical size. This is the image degradation that people speak about when making MID adjustments.


----------



## fred33

Maybe its time for a plasma.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe its time for a plasma.



Geometry is perfect with the Panasonic 1080p (TH-(50/65)PF9UK) and with 1x1 pixel mode for 1080i/p input, no overscan. All others have about 3% overscan.


----------



## fred33

Hhahah thanks GlenC.

I was looking at the pioneer 50.

BUt we better stop...I dont think this is the thread for it.

I wonder if I can sell my sony 34xbr960


----------



## Napoleon D

I apoligize if this cuts into the current line of conversation.


I was curious what people use for their color decoding these days. I haven't seen KenTech for a while, who was a pioneer in making some discoveries for Sony color-decoding.


I've been using (for RYR-GYB) 14-14-4-3 for the longest time, but then switched back to 14-14-6-4, as I felt the green was lacking a littl bit. I still swear that the perfect color decoding lies somewhere between 14-14-6-4 and 13-15-5-3.


Chad B. calibrated my display and locked in a perfect grayscale. He calibrated my set to 13-15-5-3 initially. I then ran the 14-14-6-4 by him, which he said looked "a little bit more accurate" on DVE.


I still feel that the TRUE color decoding lies somewhere between 13-15-5-3 and 14-14-6-4. The first has too much red while the latter has too much green. I remember KenTech saying that the 6-4 for green was set in stone. What do you guys think?


Color-decoding is definitely my favorite part in display adjustment, as so little adjustment has big effect on image aesthetics. But deciding on one setting is the biggest challenge. For a while i was swearing by 14-14-4-3, but I still felt that true NTSC accuracy was missing as we needed a little more greens with this one.


Calibrating on DVE gets you there, but i make final decisions by how well colors look on a dvd (usually the 2 agree).


14-14-6-4 seems to be the most accurate, although the greens look a touch over-saturated. 13-15-5-3 obviously takes out the green, but adds too much red. They're both VERY close, although I wish there was something in the middle that worked. What do you folks use?


----------



## SurfingMatt27

I personally use 14-14-6-4..i find this to be the most accurate settings of all the different variations i've found.

*Napoleon D* you might want to try lowering your color settings also in the user menu since the default middle settings can somewhat be a bit too much saturation.


I personally prefur a more natural look so i keep my color settings at 4 clicks below the middle setting.


As for SBRT well i have my setting at 29, it seems to be the best compromise although 28 is really close.


----------



## DSperber

And when all is said and done, the proof is in the pudding. You don't watch calibration DVD's on the set, you watch TV shows mostly. And that's ultimately where the final fine-tuning lies, watching some program content that looks most human-likfe and realistic.


I used to rely on "The Tonight Show" as my reference, and while I still do refer to it when adjusting new sets for friends and family, I've decided that the best looking show on TV now is "American Idol". I'm not concerned about 720p vs. 1080i, I'm talking about the COLOR.


First of all, it's live. That makes an unbelievable difference.


Second, I'm suggesting you concentrate on the post-performance discussion with Randy, Paula and Simon, and the closeups of them. This season the color of the background behind them and all of the surrounding areas are all fabulous. And of course the skin and hair and clothing colors of the three of them are simply remarkable (on my perfectly adjusted XBR960).


I get a kick out of Randy's multi-colored highly detailed shirts that he always wears over his T-shirt. This always looks like he's actually sitting in my room, it's so real and detailed and the colors are so true. The camera closeups are remarkable. With the detail available from a CRT you can see every single hair, every twinkle and reflection in eyes and glass, etc. Live TV is amazing in HD.


The production crew on that show really has reached a level that is unlikely to be matched on any other show. So use it as a reference. If their skin color looks perfect, you've got your color-tweaks set right on your Sony. If not, use them as your reference and try out slight adjustments.


----------



## AVSUser2005

First of all, let me give you a HUGE thanks KenTech for taking the time to create this thread, and continuing to add new information and discoveries to it - and thanks to all the other major contributers like NighWatchMen who have worked to "Perfect" their TV's.


I have a KD-34XBR960, and I was initally impressed by it's stunning clarity - like I'm sure all of you who own it were - out of the box, until I noticed many geometry errors, convergence errors (I STILL have an even misconvergence on horzontal lines - but have yet to tweak the H.STAT control on the CRT neck to resolve it), color and image artifacts from over sharpness, and slightly off color tone.


I've tweaked SM settings on most of my TV's before, but the Sony SM (unlike the Samsung) is VERY large, and very complex - had it not been for the large abundance of input in this thread, and the guidence contributed by everyone, I wouldn't have felt confident to dive in. I've learned alot along the way that I couldn't have figured out any other way aswell - like what the VON setting does (good thing I didn't mess with that too much!).


I can confidently say, my TV is as good as I can make it. I spend an hour or so each day, tweaking (much to my families annoyance) this awesome set, striving for the "Sweet Spot" where I can finally say I'm done. All my setting have been done in the hijacked PRO picture mode.










Soo far, the sharpness settings ended up best with the user menu sharpness set at 20, Velocity modulation OFF in the user menu, and with SM settings set to SYSM = 1, VMLV = 0, VMCR = 3, VMLM = 1, VMF0 = 1, VMDL = 4, SHOF = 2, SHFO = 1, PROV = 2, F1LV = 0, LTLV = 1, LTMD = 0, CTLV = 1, and I set MIDE to my own custom table at 21, which has the settings, 21-0-0-0-0-3-2-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 in the M row of settings - no enhancements were added to the S row of settings in the MID5 group. I applied these SM sharpness and user menu settings to every input with resolutions above 480i - for that mode I have some settings I will share when I can re-confirm them, and they resolve equally, pixel perfect, near LCD resolution.


I am first and foremost, using my TV for high-definition, and SD based video games, and PC software - and at this point, all of my months of tweaking through trial and error to discover things have resulted in a TV with clarity comparible to that of high-end PC CRT monitors in both color clarity, image resolution, ringing control, and overall image fidelity including color tone and greyscale gamma correction to 2.2 (windows standard gamma setting).


I also enjoy watching movies as the director intended. In the process of striving for a gaming monitor that produces the clearest, most accurate high-fidelity images - as gaming is one of the most resolution demanding applications of any monitor (pixel precision is a must for video clarity) - has made watching anything else on the TV spectacular. However, color accuracy isn't as important to gaming as it is to movies - but I've got my color decoder nearly perfect aswell with 15-15-6-3 (I believe) for the best of both worlds.


Using a PC to do the calibrations through HDMI and componnet, aswell as S-Video and composite has yielded fantasic results, and I firmly believe to be the best way to calibrate the majority of the image settings. I use a PC monitor to base my comparisons of image clarity against - and soo far, my TV shoots past my high-resolution PC monitor in nearly all areas. There is only a SLIGHT amount of ringing and ghosting left, due to the limitations of the component video bandwidth.


HDMI fares FAR better in this regard, as there is almost NO sign of over-sharpening, ghosting, or color mis-alignment - I can't wait to play PS3 games at 1080i through HDMI on this thing. I never expected to remove ALL picture noise - but I have come close with the adjustments I outlined above. Using a program though my PC called Nokia Monitor Test (you can still find it online [EDIT: Links are in my next post]) makes adjusting overscan, sharpness, scaling, convergence, auto brightness limiting, and geometry a breeze.


The only problem resulting from tuning the geometry is that the right side of the screen is being stretched outward more than the left - which I know can be fixed by simply adjusting the HCENT setting in the 2105D-2 table off from center in the raster. Right now, however, the image is perfectly centered in the raster with eqaul spacing on all sides, with almost no overscan, and only a SLIGHT bulge on the top right corner from magnetic adjustments that I cannot easily make.


The vertical convergence is nearly perfect, the overall screen brightness, thanks to the LANDING adjustments, is very even - and every resolution coming from my PC fits the screen perfectly square corner to corner, I can see the entire Windows Start bar, and every detail to the corners - and even in 1080i the image is soo clear I can easily make each pixel in the clock on the right side of the start bar.


Another important thing - as KenTech pointed out - the MID1-3 settings that stretch the image will GREATLY affect the overall image resolution if impropperly adjusted. I recommend using a 2x2 pixel and 1x1 pixel diagonal grid patterns (looks like a checker board) with full black on white to determine the MID settings are correct. It's nearly perfect for all modes on my TV except 720P, which is only slightly off in order to keep the overscan under control. If it's off at all, you'll see big rolling bars in the patters either vertically or horizontally, and you'll know it's coming from the MID1-3 table settings. These settings, are KEY to producing pixel-perfect image clarity. Since no 2 TV's are the same, I won't bother adding my geometry or MID1-3 settings here.


I've also found it very usefull to crank the YOF setting in the 2105P-1 table to 15 on all inputs, as it yields the best black-level detail in dark scenes. I took RWetmore's advice, and upped my CUT settings from around ~16 or less, and upped them to in the mid 20's while lowering the DRV and SBRT settings to stabilise the black level and contrast - the TV now maintains a consistant black level under nearly all contrast levels. Gamma is set at 2.2 with the settings in the 2107P-3 being GAMM = 0, GAMS = 10 (makes the image look more 3D - any high or any lower and it looks either pastel, or washed out), GAMR = 4, GAMG = 4, and GAMB = 4 - I'm very pleased with this setting, as all content seems to POP out of the screen. Somtimes I just sit back and say "WOW" because it looks as if you would reach through the TV when playing games or watching nature programs on the discovery channel.


I have some other things I will come back and share at a later time, on calibrating the DRC circuitry and the 2103-1 tables for making 480i content almost IDENTICAL in clarity to true 480P. I'm very impressed with the results the calibration has yielded in this area. Color delay is also very important to these results for ALL screen modes, and those adjustments can be found in the DRC table (for 480i), and in the MID1, and MID3 tables for all other modes (including 480i aswell). The MID3 VYCD setting is unique to each screen mode, and the MID1 DYCD adjustment is unique to 480i, but applied globally to all resolutions from 480P and above on both HDMI and Component input 5 and 6 (the only inputs I've adjusted soo far).


I've gotta go for now, but THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE for you're contributions, this thread has been awesome.


----------



## AVSUser2005




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fred33* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A few questions about geometry.
> 
> What adjustments are universal...meaning they affect ALL the inputs at once.
> 
> Are the MID adjustments universal or input dependent?
> 
> If I put up a crosshatch pattern, what adjustments will stretch or shrink the image on all the "squares" at once? Meaning that all the squares in the pattern will shrink or squeeze at the same rate.
> 
> 
> Is there a pattern that I can put on my TV that will show the degradation of the picture when I adjust some of the MID adjustments?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.



The MID1 table effects all screen modes - the MID2 and 3 tables are resolution (and in some cases such as with Component and HDMI) input independant.


I've managed to get perfect overscan and centering on all resolutions for HDMI and Component 5/6 using the MID tables.


A pattern that is great for adjusting the MID scaling settings can be found in the Nokia Monitor Test PC programs that can be found at these addresses (Remove the *'s) - both programs contain different patterns:


This is the big one - it must be installed on your hard disk:

w*w*w*.*construnet*.*h*u*/nokia/Monitors/TEST/monitor_test*.*h*t*m*l


This is the one I use, and the one my information reffers to:

w*w*w*.*softpedia*.*c*o*m*/get/Multimedia/Video/Other-VIDEO-Tools/Nokia-Monitor-Test*.*s*h*t*m*l


You'll need to hook your PC up to your TV through HDMI or Component though, and it works best with 480P and above, as the DRC circtuiry renders fine detail with LOTS of artifacts. The best patterns for this adjustment are in the Moire pattern page.


Hope you get the results you're looking for!


----------



## fred33

Thanks.

I have used other patters for 480i and for 1080i. When adjusting the HD, I use my computer to output to my TV via component. When I change my computer screen resolution to 1920 by 1080, my TV accepts that at 1080i and show the complete pattern.


----------



## AVSUser2005

I've been wondering for a while - and I'm sure someone here knows the answer - in the service data chart chart for the KD-34XBR960, there is a Red box and Yellow box at the top of each page that say Adjustment Data At CBA, and Adjustment Data At F/A (respectively) used to describe the appliable value of certain service menu items.


What is CBA, and what is F/A?


Any help would be VERY much appreciated.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AVSUser2005* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First of all, let me give you a HUGE thanks KenTech for taking the time to create this thread, and continuing to add new information and discoveries to it - and thanks to all the other major contributers like NighWatchMen who have worked to "Perfect" their TV's.
> 
> 
> I have a KD-34XBR960, and I was initally impressed by it's stunning clarity - like I'm sure all of you who own it were - out of the box, until I noticed many geometry errors, convergence errors (I STILL have an even misconvergence on horzontal lines - but have yet to tweak the H.STAT control on the CRT neck to resolve it), color and image artifacts from over sharpness, and slightly off color tone.
> 
> 
> I've tweaked SM settings on most of my TV's before, but the Sony SM (unlike the Samsung) is VERY large, and very complex - had it not been for the large abundance of input in this thread, and the guidence contributed by everyone, I wouldn't have felt confident to dive in. I've learned alot along the way that I couldn't have figured out any other way aswell - like what the VON setting does (good thing I didn't mess with that too much!).
> 
> 
> I can confidently say, my TV is as good as I can make it. I spend an hour or so each day, tweaking (much to my families annoyance) this awesome set, striving for the "Sweet Spot" where I can finally say I'm done. All my setting have been done in the hijacked PRO picture mode.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soo far, the sharpness settings ended up best with the user menu sharpness set at 20, Velocity modulation OFF in the user menu, and with SM settings set to SYSM = 1, VMLV = 0, VMCR = 3, VMLM = 1, VMF0 = 1, VMDL = 4, SHOF = 2, SHFO = 1, PROV = 2, F1LV = 0, LTLV = 1, LTMD = 0, CTLV = 1, and I set MIDE to my own custom table at 21, which has the settings, 21-0-0-0-0-3-2-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 in the M row of settings - no enhancements were added to the S row of settings in the MID5 group. I applied these SM sharpness and user menu settings to every input with resolutions above 480i - for that mode I have some settings I will share when I can re-confirm them, and they resolve equally, pixel perfect, near LCD resolution.
> 
> 
> I am first and foremost, using my TV for high-definition, and SD based video games, and PC software - and at this point, all of my months of tweaking through trial and error to discover things have resulted in a TV with clarity comparible to that of high-end PC CRT monitors in both color clarity, image resolution, ringing control, and overall image fidelity including color tone and greyscale gamma correction to 2.2 (windows standard gamma setting).
> 
> 
> I also enjoy watching movies as the director intended. In the process of striving for a gaming monitor that produces the clearest, most accurate high-fidelity images - as gaming is one of the most resolution demanding applications of any monitor (pixel precision is a must for video clarity) - has made watching anything else on the TV spectacular. However, color accuracy isn't as important to gaming as it is to movies - but I've got my color decoder nearly perfect aswell with 15-15-6-3 (I believe) for the best of both worlds.
> 
> 
> Using a PC to do the calibrations through HDMI and componnet, aswell as S-Video and composite has yielded fantasic results, and I firmly believe to be the best way to calibrate the majority of the image settings. I use a PC monitor to base my comparisons of image clarity against - and soo far, my TV shoots past my high-resolution PC monitor in nearly all areas. There is only a SLIGHT amount of ringing and ghosting left, due to the limitations of the component video bandwidth.
> 
> 
> HDMI fares FAR better in this regard, as there is almost NO sign of over-sharpening, ghosting, or color mis-alignment - *I can't wait to play PS3 games at 1080i through HDMI on this thing.* I never expected to remove ALL picture noise - but I have come close with the adjustments I outlined above. Using a program though my PC called Nokia Monitor Test (you can still find it online [EDIT: Links are in my next post]) makes adjusting overscan, sharpness, scaling, convergence, auto brightness limiting, and geometry a breeze.
> 
> 
> The only problem resulting from tuning the geometry is that the right side of the screen is being stretched outward more than the left - which I know can be fixed by simply adjusting the HCENT setting in the 2105D-2 table off from center in the raster. Right now, however, the image is perfectly centered in the raster with eqaul spacing on all sides, with almost no overscan, and only a SLIGHT bulge on the top right corner from magnetic adjustments that I cannot easily make.
> 
> 
> The vertical convergence is nearly perfect, the overall screen brightness, thanks to the LANDING adjustments, is very even - and every resolution coming from my PC fits the screen perfectly square corner to corner, I can see the entire Windows Start bar, and every detail to the corners - and even in 1080i the image is soo clear I can easily make each pixel in the clock on the right side of the start bar.
> 
> 
> Another important thing - as KenTech pointed out - the MID1-3 settings that stretch the image will GREATLY affect the overall image resolution if impropperly adjusted. I recommend using a 2x2 pixel and 1x1 pixel diagonal grid patterns (looks like a checker board) with full black on white to determine the MID settings are correct. It's nearly perfect for all modes on my TV except 720P, which is only slightly off in order to keep the overscan under control. If it's off at all, you'll see big rolling bars in the patters either vertically or horizontally, and you'll know it's coming from the MID1-3 table settings. These settings, are KEY to producing pixel-perfect image clarity. Since no 2 TV's are the same, I won't bother adding my geometry or MID1-3 settings here.
> 
> 
> I've also found it very usefull to crank the YOF setting in the 2105P-1 table to 15 on all inputs, as it yields the best black-level detail in dark scenes. I took RWetmore's advice, and upped my CUT settings from around ~16 or less, and upped them to in the mid 20's while lowering the DRV and SBRT settings to stabilise the black level and contrast - the TV now maintains a consistant black level under nearly all contrast levels. Gamma is set at 2.2 with the settings in the 2107P-3 being GAMM = 0, GAMS = 10 (makes the image look more 3D - any high or any lower and it looks either pastel, or washed out), GAMR = 4, GAMG = 4, and GAMB = 4 - I'm very pleased with this setting, as all content seems to POP out of the screen. Somtimes I just sit back and say "WOW" because it looks as if you would reach through the TV when playing games or watching nature programs on the discovery channel.
> 
> 
> I have some other things I will come back and share at a later time, on calibrating the DRC circuitry and the 2103-1 tables for making 480i content almost IDENTICAL in clarity to true 480P. I'm very impressed with the results the calibration has yielded in this area. Color delay is also very important to these results for ALL screen modes, and those adjustments can be found in the DRC table (for 480i), and in the MID1, and MID3 tables for all other modes (including 480i aswell). The MID3 VYCD setting is unique to each screen mode, and the MID1 DYCD adjustment is unique to 480i, but applied globally to all resolutions from 480P and above on both HDMI and Component input 5 and 6 (the only inputs I've adjusted soo far).
> 
> 
> I've gotta go for now, but THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE for you're contributions, this thread has been awesome.




Unfortunately the PS3 doesn't do 1080i because a lack of a scaler, if you pick 1080i it will be downrezed to 480p.


But since your sony accepts 720p, i'd use that.


Sucks i know...


----------



## AVSUser2005




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Unfortunately the PS3 doesn't do 1080i because a lack of a scaler, if you pick 1080i it will be downrezed to 480p.
> 
> 
> But since your sony accepts 720p, i'd use that.
> 
> 
> Sucks i know...



Darn, that's lame. I figured it would, since my year old 360 does. I can run everything at 1080i, or 720, or whatever the game wants. What a shame - hopefully they will have a firmware patch to fix this, as I know some TV's do not accept 720P aswell, and that would force early HDTV adopters to be stuck with 480P...


Well, soo much for the PS3 then - for now...


----------



## lanzarlaluna

Seeking some advice to clear something up. I have a 970, and I've got a dilemma. I've read many places in this thread that vertical size should not be adjusted in the MID options; however, when I set VSIZ and VPOS in 2170D-2 with a 480p/i input to 5% overscan, 1080i is overscanned to like 7%. Does anyone have any suggestions to resolve this? Horizontally things are OK, thanks to HPOS being separate for 1080i.


----------



## fred33

Some observations;

In the service manual under "picture distortions adjustments", subheading, "1080i HD Mode Adjustment"...it says to adjust geometry with a monoscope and says if you dont have one, set Verticle size to 91.0 +- .06% and Horizontal 91.0 +- 0.6%. DOes this meant the propper setting is at 9% over scan for 1080i?


Secondly, on a 960, when you see the display out put by the TV that tells the channel, ets, is that centered from the factory? Is it movable by itself? Is it centered on all the new 960?

If the answer to all that is 'positive' then one might be able to 'center' the control HCNT using the tv's display


----------



## vid33nyc1

Is there a step by step guide i can follow to change the geometry on my sony XBR970.I want to get into the service menu so i can fix the picture a bit.I notice things are a bit off when i play my xbox 360.There is so many posts here,dont know where to look.Can anyone help?thxs.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lanzarlaluna* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Seeking some advice to clear something up. I have a 970, and I've got a dilemma. I've read many places in this thread that vertical size should not be adjusted in the MID options; however, when I set VSIZ and VPOS in 2170D-2 with a 480p/i input to 5% overscan, 1080i is overscanned to like 7%. Does anyone have any suggestions to resolve this? Horizontally things are OK, thanks to HPOS being separate for 1080i.



FWIW, I use 2170D-1/ASPT and SCRL for such vertical adjustments on my XBR800. These controls are signal (SD, HD) and aspect ratio sensitive.


There's also a third sizing control in the grouping called APSW. This has only two settings (0 or 1), and appears to be used to quickly correct for the slight difference is size between the 480p/960i-line and 1080i-line display modes.


----------



## fred33




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vid33nyc1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there a step by step guide i can follow to change the geometry on my sony XBR970.I want to get into the service menu so i can fix the picture a bit.I notice things are a bit off when i play my xbox 360.There is so many posts here,dont know where to look.Can anyone help?thxs.



Look back for post # 1941


----------



## AVSUser2005

I have another important question that I hope someone can answer.


I know many of you have had to call Sony, and have techs come over to your homes to propperly adjust the convergence and geometry on your Sony HDTV's - soo my quesiton is this.


When the Tech's take the back of the TV off, and perform the convergence adjustments, do they wear any sort of protective clothing or goggles to prevent over-exposure to the X-RAY's that the TV emits?


I ask this because I am going to take the back off of my set, and make some small adjustments to the convergence myself - and before I do, I want to know what precautions the "Pros" take in regards to protecting themselves from the minor amount of X-RAY's that the TV's emit.


I don't want my eye's to bubble out of my head, or be radioatively charged or something, and need to be de-contaminated - well, maybe that's a little extreme.










But, better safe then sorry.










I know alot of you have seen these guys at work, and I'd just like to know if it appears that they have any special eye-wear or clothing on during the adjustments.


If they don't wear anything special, I'll be straight off to making the adjustments myself!


Thanks in advance!


----------



## JayPSU

After having read a significant portion of this thread, I started working on my television this weekend, but very slowly. I d/l the service codes list pdf file which was done with a Sony 34XBR910. I was wondering if someone with a Sony 34XBR970 took this file and converted it for that tv? If someone used this pdf file to do their XBR970 and inputed those values to that file, would they mind emailing that to me? It would serve as a much better road map than the 910 as the 970 is a bit different and does not have Super Fine Pitch. Obviously it could not be used verbatim as every tv is different, but again, it would provide a better "baseline" for me to use.


----------



## Napoleon D




> Quote:
> I personally use 14-14-6-4..i find this to be the most accurate settings of all the different variations i've found.



I have been playing around a lot with color-decoding recently. One thing i've noticed, and KenTech alluded to this earlier, is that DVE and Avia give very slightly different results with color decoding, most notably with the reds. There has definitely been a learning curve for me for me in calibrating the color-decoding, but that's because i've been trying to nail it 100%. I've been a little hesitant to accept the typical 14-14-6-4. While it looks impressive, i've always felt it looked a touch off, perhaps needing a little more red. Chad B. did my grayscale a little while ago, so that's still in tact. But adjusting color-decoding has great effect, and not to mention is very simple to adjust. It's just tedious to decide on one pattern










It looks as if the 6-4 for GYR/GYB is a constant, but the reds seem to be a little tricky. Avia seems to calibrate reds to 14-15 for RYR/RYB. To me this looks slightly inaccurate when watching video content. On the other hand, for DVE, the reds really look like something closer to 13-13, with 14-14 coming in a very close second place. For the final test i will usually pop in a dvd to see how all results look and choose frm there -- MI-3 is a great reference title to use as the colors are very rich in that film. From everything i've seen so far, it looks as if the "ideal" reds lie somewhere between 14-14 and 13-13 for dead-on accuracy. Both of these get you very very close, but 14-14-6-4 seems to look a a hint too dulled to my eyes, and i always thought it needed a touch more red to get it perfect. After everything i've tested, 13-13-6-4 seems to look a spec better than 14-14-6-4 IMHO. My reasoning for this (besides having it check out with DVE) is because an image with a touch more red looks a little punchier and less washed-out than an image with too many greens or blues. We are talking about a micrscopic red-push with 13-13, if even that. Both 14-14-6-4 and the 13-13-6-4 look to be the 2 most accurate patterns i've seen in terms of judging flesh tones and video content. When you watch video material you get a sense of what looks right and what doesn't judging by years of seeing colors on film. On a side-note, my HD input seems to agree closely with various color results for the compenent/dvd input.


I think that the challenge is finding one decoder pattern that works for every input - as different dvd players tend to yield different results. All Sony's are different, but from what i've been reading on here for the past year, they seem to be VERY similar in terms of color decoding.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been playing around a lot with color-decoding recently. One thing i've noticed, and KenTech alluded to this earlier, is that DVE and Avia give very slightly different results with color decoding, most notably with the reds. There has definitely been a learning curve for me for me in calibrating the color-decoding, but that's because i've bene trying to nail it 100%. I've been a little hesitant to accept the typical 14-14-6-4. While it looks impressive, i've always felt it looked a touch off, perhaps needing a little more red. Chad B. did my grayscale a little while ago, so that's still in tact. But adjusting color-decoding has great effect, and not to mention is very simple to adjust. It's just tedious to decide on one pattern
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks as if the 6-4 for GYR/GYB is a constant, but the reds seem to be a little tricky. Avia seems to calibrate reds to 14-15 for RYR/RYB. To me this looks slightly inaccurate when watching video content. On the other hand, for DVE, the reds really look like something closer to 13-13, with 14-14 coming in a very close second place. For the final test i will usually pop in a dvd to see how all results look and choose frm there -- MI-3 is a great reference title to use as the colors are very rich in that film. From everything i've seen so far, it looks as if the "ideal" reds lie somewhere between 14-14 and 13-13 for dead-on accuracy. Both of these get you very very close, but 14-14-6-4 seems to look a little dulled, and i always thought it needed a touch more red to get it perfect. After everything i've tested, 13-13-6-4 seems to look a spec better than 14-14-6-4 IMHO. My reasoning for this (besides having it check out with DVE) is because an image with a touch more red looks a little punchier and less washed-out than an image with too many greens or blues. We are talking about a micrscopic red-push with 13-13, if even that. Both 14-14-6-4 and the 13-13-6-4 look to be the 2 most accurate patterns i've seen in terms of judging flesh tones and video content. When you watch video material you get a sense of what looks right and what doesn't judging by years of seeing colors on film. On a side-note, my HD input seems to agree closely with various color results for the compenent/dvd input.
> 
> 
> I think that the challenge is finding one decoder pattern that works for every input - as different dvd players tend to yield different results. All Sony's are different, but from what i've been reading on here for the past year, they seem to be VERY similar in terms of color decoding.



Interesting observations..










If only there was a middle setting like 13.5,etc then we wouldn't be having this discussion.










Overall i find 14,14,6,4 to look it best with HD material,that's where colors truly shine and look really good!


I've got a question for you with color decoding aside what SBRT setting are you using for black level?


I'm still comptemplating from time to time using either 29 or 28, currently i'm using 29 and it seems accurate but feel my blacks could be richer and bolder if i bring it down a notch without sacrificing shadow detail.


----------



## Napoleon D

Matt-


Yeah, if only you could calibrate with a a greater range than 15 for the greens and reds.


If i remember right my SBRT is 28, i'll give it a check next time i'm in the service menu. Keep in mind - all of my user-menu settings are in the middle - 32 clicks I believe. This is because the "correct" user-menu settings are stored in the service menu. I honestly think though that mine are all set for 32 anyway, with color at 33. By setting the real settings in the SM - and linking each of those settings to each User-menu slider at the middle, you will always know which User-menu setting is correct if someone were to ever change them. So when someone tells you their SBRT is 25, be sure to know what their corresponding user setting is - whether they have it set in the SM, or in the User-menu.


I do think though that there are several service-menu settings that interact with black-level. SBRT seems to be a big one, and it may have been the only one changed, but just remember that there might be other things that play a part.


I would recommend getting an ISF by someone reputable. Once i did this, it freed up all of my concerns of adjusting everything. Color-decoding is a nice and easy one to change from time to time however, but that's all i've needed or cared to mess with. Chad Bilheimer may even come up to Massachusettes for all i know. Trust me when i say that he is excellent! He is also has the most reasonable rates out there.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

thanks for the tips










All i really need done for an ISF is greyscale adjustment and balancing the other inputs in black level color quality.


----------



## Napoleon D

Matt- What type of display do you have?


I actually had loads of changes done to my display during ISF - things i didn't even know existed. Granted, i have a CRT rear-projection so focus, convergence and geometry adjustments are needeed as well. When Chad was finished calibrating it, according to him the display looked as good, if not a touch better then even his own 60" SXRD. Apparently the SXRD is slightly better with resolution, but mine edged out with black-levels and color fidelity.


----------



## JayPSU

So tell the truth, how many of you were frustrated to the point of insanity trying to get the geometry perfect?! I'm almost to that point. SO many little changes effect so many other problems that were corrected. VERY frustrating!


----------



## RWetmore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JayPSU* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So tell the truth, how many of you were frustrated to the point of insanity trying to get the geometry perfect?! I'm almost to that point. SO many little changes effect so many other problems that were corrected. VERY frustrating!



No one can't get the geometry perfect - it is not possible even with the addition of the most skilled magnet work. At some point, compromise has to made since straighting one line result in curving another or throwing off convergence. Don't drive yourself crazy.


----------



## Napoleon D




> Quote:
> If only there was a middle setting like 13.5,etc then we wouldn't be having this discussion.



Well perhaps there's a way to "create" a mid-setting like this. What does the "AXIS" item do in the service menu?


In my service menu, right before the 4 color decoder features, there is a feature called AXIS that ranges from 0-3. My display does NOT have the axis features in the user menu like some of you do - i don't have the "monitor" etc features. The only way to access any color axis feature is in the service menu.


The "AXIS" feature as i said goes from 0 to 3. Each of these values links to a different set of color-decoding patterns. For example, if you set AXIS to 0, it will link up with 14-14-6-4. If you set AXIS to 1, you can have 13-15-5-3.... and so one. For each AXIS value you can store whatever patterns of color decoding you want.


My question is - what the is the purpose of this setting? I've asked several times in different forums and so far there really aren't any clear answers to this.


Does the Axis slide the color decoding values. For example, with some of our sets, the correct values for red lie between 14 and 13. If you were to attach 14-14-6-4 to all 4 AXIS values (0-3), will there be any difference? I know this is easily explained by testing, but it is challenging seeing differences.


I'm wondering if the AXIS value will help at all in what i'm trying to do. I feel this Sony is really capable of nailing the color-decoding. Does the AXIS feature/setting work with this at all??



**UPDATE** I found a good and old post regarding AXIS which echoes my observations


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"First, let me say that I'm not an expert on this topic and I just want to contribute what I've observed. I may be 100% wrong and it would be cool if someone would correct me.


I've been playing with DCP-USER - AXIS a little bit last night. It seems each number in AXIS has certain values for RYB, RYR, GRB and GYR.


RYB (Red level for color decoder)

RYR (Red hue for color decoder)

GYB (Green level for color decoder)

GYR (Green hue for color decoder)


I've been trying to correct the Red and Green through RYB, RYR, GRB, GYR with the AVIA color bars on 480i component input and was able to get it pretty close to red bars showing all red and green bars showing all green, looking through the color filters of course.


Before I tweaked RYB, RYR, GRB and GYR, the red and green was closer to desired setting when at AXIS=0. AXIS=2 had too much green I believe.


I then tweaked RYB, RYR, GRB and GYR using the red bars and green bars while at AXIS=0.


After saving the settings, I then tried to change AXIS to 4 and RYB, RYR, GRB and GYR values changed. While on AXIS=4, I duplicated the RYB, RYR, GRB and GYR values to be the same as in AXIS=0 and it had the same effect.


In theory, when you set AXIS to be the same on all inputs, all inputs would have the same red and green levels. (I'm still trying to get a HDMI upconverting dvd player to compare it with HDTivo).


If certain inputs have more green or red because of the source, this is where you can apply a different AXIS number and modify RYB, RYR, GRB and GYR values."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Napoleon D

SurfingMatt -


By the way, my SBRT is actually set at 24.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> SurfingMatt -
> 
> 
> By the way, my SBRT is actually set at 24.



Interesting..after further analysis it happpens that 29 was correct after all for my sony tv.


BTW i own a Sony 34" 34HS420.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

Also by turning the color guns on/off in the service menu you can adjust color decoder more accurately than using the color filters.


I believe it's RGBS in the service menu.


----------



## Napoleon D




> Quote:
> Also by turning the color guns on/off in the service menu you can adjust color decoder more accurately than using the color filters.



Very true. You should not use the color filters, apparently they aren't accurate.


The only challenge with even the color-gun method, is that DVE and Avia tend to disagree a little. What it all comes down to is what you like the best.


All in all, i think we can get 95% of the way there, but perhaps not 100%. Oh well!


----------



## Napoleon D

I just made a large breakthrough with my display with color-decoding. This has been an ongoing effort, and i've learned a lot along the way. But I think i've finally nailed the color-decoding for this display. (or at least, something that's 98-99% of the way there)


I've personally found that DVE and Avia produce different results - I could be looking at it differently, but i come up with slightly different results from each when i calibrate red. From the looks of it, and from what I discovered tonight, DVE looks to be slightly the more accurate of the 2, at least in what i've found with my own eyes.


All Sony's are different, but from what i've read on here it seems we all agree on color-decoding for the most part.


I gave DVE another try, knowing that there must be a way to truly nail the colors. 6-4 for greens look set in stone for both Avia and DVE, but the reds have been tricky, the real deal-breakers/makers. I started calibrating reds again, and in really looking closely as the patterns, I found myself lowering reds more than usual. Finally, i came out to results of 13-12, 14-12 and once again 13-13 for reds. I thought, whatever, no one has reported this so this probably won't look right. I settled on 13-12, and then popped my MI-3 disc in, and i was instantly floored by the results. Not only was the color and flesh tones much more accurate than before, but the image looked more alive than i've ever seen it. I haven't seen others report these values, but this could very well be because i have a different Sony.


At any rate I tried out 14-12-6-4 and/or 13-12-6-4, and both were a significant improvement. I re-addressed 13-13 as well and it seemed to check out on DVE. Granted, none of these get it 100%, but to my eyes it nails it a little more so than 14-14-6-4, at least as it is on my display. Fine tuning the reds really gave the flesh tones a more natural look. I have not decided on which setting yet, but they all look very accurate (13-12 might be the best) I take it back about this set not being capable of perfect color-decoding accuracy, apparently i just needed a little more work on the reds. It's not 100%, but it's much closer than i was before.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Very true. You should not use the color filters, apparently they aren't accurate.
> 
> 
> The only challenge with even the color-gun method, is that DVE and Avia tend to disagree a little. What it all comes down to is what you like the best.
> 
> 
> All in all, i think we can get 95% of the way there, but perhaps not 100%. Oh well!



another thing i forgot to mention is that i have DVE, i don't own AVIA so that may be why we both have settled on different color decoder settings given the variation in the two settups discs tests.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just made a large breakthrough with my display with color-decoding. This has been an ongoing effort, and i've learned a lot along the way. But I think i've finally nailed the color-decoding for this display. (or at least, something that's 98-99% of the way there)
> 
> 
> I've personally found that DVE and Avia produce different results - I could be looking at it differently, but i come up with slightly different results from each when i calibrate red. From the looks of it, and from what I discovered tonight, DVE looks to be slightly the more accurate of the 2, at least in what i've found with my own eyes.
> 
> 
> All Sony's are different, but from what i've read on here it seems we all agree on color-decoding for the most part.
> 
> 
> I gave DVE another try, knowing that there must be a way to truly nail the colors. 6-4 for greens look set in stone for both Avia and DVE, but the reds have been tricky, the real deal-breakers/makers. I started calibrating reds again, and in really looking closely as the patterns, I found myself lowering reds more than usual. Finally, i came out to results of 13-12, 14-12 and once again 13-13 for reds. I thought, whatever, no one has reported this so this probably won't look right. I settled on 13-12, and then popped my MI-3 disc in, and i was instantly floored by the results. Not only was the color and flesh tones much more accurate than before, but the image looked more alive than i've ever seen it. I haven't seen others report these values, but this could very well be because i have a different Sony.
> 
> 
> At any rate I tried out 14-12-6-4 and/or 13-12-6-4, and both were a significant improvement. I re-addressed 13-13 as well and it seemed to check out on DVE. Granted, none of these get it 100%, but to my eyes it nails it a little more so than 14-14-6-4, at least as it is on my display. Fine tuning the reds really gave the flesh tones a more natural look. I have not decided on which setting yet, but they all look very accurate (13-12 might be the best) I take it back about this set not being capable of perfect color-decoding accuracy, apparently i just needed a little more work on the reds. It's not 100%, but it's much closer than i was before.



what's your color settings set at in the user menu? mine are 4 clicks below the middle setting since i found the saturation of the middle setting to be a bit too much for me.


I personally like a more natural picture apposed to a "poppy" picture... but that's just me.


----------



## Napoleon D

Matt - I have DVE as well, and I like using it a little better than Avia. As i said i seem to have better luck calibrating color-decoding with DVE than w/ Avia.


Color setting for me is at 33. But the slider is at 32, the middle. (As i've saved the middle setting to reflect 33 clicks - so i can get back to the ideal setting).


You probably know this already, but the color slider should be an objective setting. To find the ideal setting, first bring up the 2 horizontal color-bar pattern on DVE under the display pattern menu. Turn off the red & green guns. All your left with is blue now. You need to adjust the color slider until the blue in the box matches the background completely. For me, this setting was 33 clicks exactly (which would be the first-half of the 17th bar on the color-slider if you catch my drift..) The best way to look at it is to view the color slider as the Blue adjustment, while RY's and GY's are for red and green. Honestly the saturation looks perfect to me, as that's what film and tv material is ideally supposed to look like, if everything's calibrated right.


Also, if you get the greens and reds calibrated just right, the image will look pretty natural and less cartoonish without having to slide the color bar down.


Another thing is that my grayscale was calibrated @ a year ago so that may play a part in the "natural" look. But i feel color-decoding takes you a long way with such simple settings. TV's are all different, but try out 13-12-6-4 and see if you like it. For me that helped in getting the flesh tones and reds to look a touch more natural. 14-12 looked good too. As much as i liked 14-14-6-4, as it works for many, with my particular display it looked a little too dulled and washed out and i thought there was some room to get it a little better.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Matt - I have DVE as well, and I like using it a little better than Avia. As i said i seem to have better luck calibrating color-decoding with DVE than w/ Avia.
> 
> 
> Color setting for me is at 33. But the slider is at 32, the middle. (As i've saved the middle setting to reflect 33 clicks - so i can get back to the ideal setting).
> 
> 
> You probably know this already, but the color slider should be an objective setting. To find the ideal setting, first bring up the 2 horizontal color-bar pattern on DVE under the display pattern menu. Turn off the red & green guns. All your left with is blue now. You need to adjust the color slider until the blue in the box matches the background completely. For me, this setting was 33 clicks exactly (which would be the first-half of the 17th bar on the color-slider if you catch my drift..) The best way to look at it is to view the color slider as the Blue adjustment, while RY's and GY's are for red and green. Honestly the saturation looks perfect to me, as that's what film and tv material is ideally supposed to look like, if everything's calibrated right.
> 
> 
> Also, if you get the greens and reds calibrated just right, the image will look pretty natural and less cartoonish without having to slide the color bar down.
> 
> 
> Another thing is that my grayscale was calibrated @ a year ago so that may play a part in the "natural" look. But i feel color-decoding takes you a long way with such simple settings. TV's are all different, but try out 13-12-6-4 and see if you like it. For me that helped in getting the flesh tones and reds to look a touch more natural. 14-12 looked good too. As much as i liked 14-14-6-4, as it works for many, with my particular display it looked a little too dulled and washed out and i thought there was some room to get it a little better.



Thanks for the tips! although personally i have no problem with skin tones what so ever i like it the way it is set now.sure it could get more saturated with the colors but like you said color is personal prefurance and i like the slightly dulled natural look.










To tell you the truth i really havn't been into the service menu since i got my xbox360 back in September 06. Don't have to since it's a set it and forget it thing once your satisfied with your settings you know.










So i take it you finally found a happy medium of settings and will stick with them and set it and forget it now.


----------



## Napoleon D




> Quote:
> So i take it you finally found a happy medium of settings and will stick with them and set it and forget it now.



Yep










It's official now, 15-13-6-4 is the closest there is on my set. I got some help in finding it, but that's most definitely it, and i'm thrilled to finally have found it in there. I was on the right track with trying to fix the reds but just missing it each time. 14-14-6-4 comes in a close second for me, although it undersaturates the reds a hint too much. 15-13 (as opposed to 13-15) has the colors looking as dead-on with viewing material as possible with my set.


----------



## Tempest_2084

I tried to download the XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf but nothing happens. Is the attachment still valid?


----------



## AVSUser2005




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AVSUser2005* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have another important question that I hope someone can answer.
> 
> 
> I know many of you have had to call Sony, and have techs come over to your homes to propperly adjust the convergence and geometry on your Sony HDTV's - soo my quesiton is this.
> 
> 
> When the Tech's take the back of the TV off, and perform the convergence adjustments, do they wear any sort of protective clothing or goggles to prevent over-exposure to the X-RAY's that the TV emits?
> 
> 
> I ask this because I am going to take the back off of my set, and make some small adjustments to the convergence myself - and before I do, I want to know what precautions the "Pros" take in regards to protecting themselves from the minor amount of X-RAY's that the TV's emit.
> 
> 
> I don't want my eye's to bubble out of my head, or be radioatively charged or something, and need to be de-contaminated - well, maybe that's a little extreme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, better safe then sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know alot of you have seen these guys at work, and I'd just like to know if it appears that they have any special eye-wear or clothing on during the adjustments.
> 
> 
> If they don't wear anything special, I'll be straight off to making the adjustments myself!
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Anyone have any personal experience on this matter to share with me? I'm about to take the TV apart today, and work on the convergence - but not knowing what the Pro's wear when adjusting has me concerned for my safety. Radiation typically has a half-life - but I don't have a clue about X-Ray's. I was really hoping to get a heads up on this. Please let me about anything that could be potentially hazardous during the calibration with the back off of my TV.


----------



## disco277

Hi All,


I first posted this issue in November and still have yet to find a fix. It's starting to annoy me and I can't seem to figure it out.


I have KV-32HS510 hooked up to a Dish 942 and an Xbox 360. It works ok at 480p and on 1080i. However, when I switch to 720p the color is very green. Are there individual settings for color on 720p? I want to use 720p because it seems clearer than 1080i as it seems blurred on the left hand side.


Also when viewing the guide off the 942 the lines that separate the channels don't seem straight, but I can live with that for now... really it's the color thing.


Thanks in advance!


----------



## prophcy0

I was wondering if someone could suggest some service mode adjustments to fix a slight problem I've noticed recently on my set. Text on the bottom-right side of the screen looks slightly blurry. I notice it most when I'm in the Guide of my XBox360. I think I may be at fault for causing this, as I was in the service menu fairly recently (I can't remember why). What should I try adjusting to see if it clears it up?


----------



## John K.

My Sony KDF-60XS955 took a crap today. all i can say is that the red stanby led flahes 6 times, and repeats itself. any help out there on what this may mean


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *John K.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My Sony KDF-60XS955 took a crap today. all i can say is that the red stanby led flahes 6 times, and repeats itself. any help out there on what this may mean



Time for a service call, from the SM:
Diagnostic Item Description | Number of times STANDBY or LAMP LED lamp flashes | Probable Cause ........................| Detected Symptoms

Low B error .........................| 6 times ............................................................ .........| -No "DD 6V " output (G1 board) | - No picture/No sound


----------



## mmesallem

is there any specific settings that are universal or does it vary by tv? i am a noob to this so anyhelp will be greatly apprecoated. my problem is that i have international free tv on my 970 and it is zoomed to fit the screen but it comes out somewhat pixelated, is there anyway to adjust this. I have a pansat reciever and my old 13year old tube sony seems to have a better picture than this does! what is my problem


----------



## AVSUser2005




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *John K.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My Sony KDF-60XS955 took a crap today. all i can say is that the red stanby led flahes 6 times, and repeats itself. any help out there on what this may mean



Yours is a 60" - so it's likely not a CRT like mine - but on occasion, after exiting the SM, my TV will do that. After the lights flash, the tube never turns on. The first time it did it, I nearly had a heart attack - but I unplugged the set for 1 minute, and plugged it back in. Viola! It turned back on. It's only done this to me a couple other times, and to fix it, I've had to do the same thing.


Perhaps you could give it a try before having a tech come out.










Worth a shot anyhow.


----------



## AVSUser2005




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mmesallem* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> is there any specific settings that are universal or does it vary by tv? i am a noob to this so anyhelp will be greatly apprecoated. my problem is that i have international free tv on my 970 and it is zoomed to fit the screen but it comes out somewhat pixelated, is there anyway to adjust this. I have a pansat reciever and my old 13year old tube sony seems to have a better picture than this does! what is my problem



Pixelation isn't a BAD thing, perse - it just means that your TV is very well adjusted, and very sharply focused. Soo much so, that you can make out the grainy, pixelated look of low resolution SD signals. You're seeing that "Raw" picture on your HD set much more than you did on your old one.


Best cure I can reccomend for this is to simply "Simulate" the (likely) poor image rendition of your lower resolution, older picture tube - by lowering the sharpness settings in the user menu, and disabling Velocity Scan Modulation. The added "Fuzziness" should make it look more at home on your HD set, if it takes that annoyance of signal grain out. Unfortunately, that's causing you to run away from why you buy HD in the first place - natural image rendition with extreme resolution and clarity.


It's up to you - but that's the best I can recommend. And if you think SD is grainy though analog inputs, you aught to see 480P through HDMI! MAN, it even bothers me - and I'm all about wanting to see each little pixel clearly!


----------



## AVSUser2005

Awesome find on the AXIS settings Napoleon D. Very much appreciated. I've applied your findings to all my SM settings, and have had amazing uniformity of coler decoder settings on ALL inputs and screen resolutions now. Only problem I have, is that when using my PS3 with HDMI (the only HDMI 1.3 device I own), 480P shares the same AXIS setting with 720P, and 1080i - but the color decoder settings for 480P are seemingly very strong on the red end of the spectrum. Whenever I change the AXIS for 480P over HDMI, it changes the 720P and 1080i AXIS value to match - soo I cannot achieve anywhere near a balence between 480P and the other resolutions on HDMI - yet. If you find this to be a problem aswell, do share any solutions you find.


----------



## Napoleon D

AVSUSer-


Do you have an extra component cable lying around? Does the PS3 accept component? If so, why don't you plug both HDMI and component into the machine. This way you'll have 2 different inputs in your display for the PS3, one you can use for 480p and one for the rest. This way you CAN have 2 different sets of colors.


I've heard for certain displays component is either better or the image looks exactly the same as HDMI. I have a RP-CRT which that applies to.


That's too bad the color decoding changes so much over 3 resolutions. What kind of tv do you have? Are you saying you can't find a color-decoder setting that compromises with all of the resolutions?


15-13-6-4 is the holy grail with my set. Although this is over component for both HDTV and DVD. Are you sure that produces too much red on 480p for you? I thought that at first, but it was because i wasn't used to what looked correct. Also, certain dvd players apparently yield different colors, which baffles me.


----------



## AVSUser2005




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> AVSUSer-
> 
> 
> Do you have an extra component cable lying around? Does the PS3 accept component? If so, why don't you plug both HDMI and component into the machine. This way you'll have 2 different inputs in your display for the PS3, one you can use for 480p and one for the rest. This way you CAN have 2 different sets of colors.
> 
> 
> I've heard for certain displays component is either better or the image looks exactly the same as HDMI. I have a RP-CRT which that applies to.
> 
> 
> That's too bad the color decoding changes so much over 3 resolutions. What kind of tv do you have? Are you saying you can't find a color-decoder setting that compromises with all of the resolutions?
> 
> 
> 15-13-6-4 is the holy grail with my set. Although this is over component for both HDTV and DVD. Are you sure that produces too much red on 480p for you? I thought that at first, but it was because i wasn't used to what looked correct. Also, certain dvd players apparently yield different colors, which baffles me.



15-13-6-4 is the perfect color decoder setting for my CRT 34" Sony KD-34XBR960. The color decoder settings are not the apperent problem - the ability of the TV to hold a unique AXIS setting for each resolution is the issue. 480i-1080i through component video yield nearly identical color tone settings - but through HDMI, the AXIS looks best at 1 with 720P and 1080i, but at 480P it looks best at 0. Unfotunately, the TV has only one AXIS settings for all HDMI resolutions. 0 takes the red push out of 480P, and makes the color decoder nearly perfect - but it must be set to 1 in order for the color decoding to be perfect in 720P and 1080i. I haven't been able to find a way to resolve this.


According to the Service Code listing for my model, each resolution should have it's own unique AXIS setting applicable - but that is seemingly not the case. I might jsut have to live with not using 480P over HDMI. And as fasr as running PS3 on both Component and HDMI - I'll stick with HDMI, as it's a much better image, with far less ringing and color bleeding, especially in 720P. The PS3 cannot output from more than one input at a time for either audio or video. It's HDMI or Component, HDMI-Audio or Optical - not both.










Soo - all I can do is keep tweaking, trying to get the most out of it.







I'll get back to you if I figure it out. Thank you for the help, and for getting back to me.


----------



## Leonjr76

I have an xbr960 and an xs955, the 960 was bought used the 955 NIB. I have noticed some slight geometry problems with the 960 and what appears to be perfect geometry with the 955. Picture quality on both seem to be comparable with same settings. The problem and/or question I have is with the 955 on with no signal input meaning blank screen, I believe it should be completely black. What I am seeing is a slightly red tinted screen with red lines running from left to right about one inch apart from top to bottom. The lines are not perfectly horizontal with the tube but are with each other. On the left side the lines will start out about an inch from the border of the tube and slightly bow down and then up, like a smile, and end on the right side even with the tube. It was brand new a month or two ago at the most so I figured some burn in time would possibly lessen the effect or even get rid of it. Well of course that is not the case. With a signal input the lines are still visible but less noticeable except when viewing a dark show like LOST. I have not noticed this same problem on my 960, I believe this to be an actual problem. I have read the enormous 960 and 955 threads. I may have read about this problem and a fix for it, but given how long it took me to read those and how much information is in those threads I just don't remember. I tried doing a search but of course do not know exactly what to call this problem, so the search yielded unrelated items. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## fred33

Hi.

When I bring up TWIN mode on my XBR960, the screen rolls from top to bottom. This only happens on the Right picture.

Any fix or adjustments for this?


----------



## Napoleon D

AVSUser - I'm a little confused when you say that changing the Axis has any difference on what you're seeing, or when you say "the AXIS looks best at 1 with 720P and 1080i."


As far as i know, and i could be wrong, the Axis button ONLY serves as a grouping-value, which affects only the 4 color-decoding values. Pretend you have 4 identical garages each with a different color car. If you change which garage you use, you change the look of the car inside. If you take the same red car and put one in each garage, then changing the garage makes no difference anymore.


You mentioned that changing Axis in one example gets rid of the red-push for 480p. It's not the Axis you should be focusing on, it's the color-decoding entires linked to each Axis. The only reason Axis-0 gets rid of a red push is because the color-decoding linked to that value just happens to have a lower red setting - this is the factory setting. You can change that.


When you change Axis from 1 to 0, you will then notice that the 4 color-values (RYR-GYB), which come right after Axis in the menu, change along with it. Try setting Axis to 0, and then change the colors to 15-13-6-4, hit save.... If you were then to change Axis to 1, you will see different colors. Why? If you go forward you will then see that the color-decoding is at a different pattern now, as it was the pattern that is stored for that specific Axis. Having Axis at 1, then change the colors to 15-13-6-4, and hit save. Now if you change the Axis back from 1 to 0, you will notice zero change in the colors.


I could be wrong about this, as i've only tried this over component only. But from all i've seen, the Axis is nothing more than a storage value that affects nothing except the 4 color decoding values that follow it. If you set the 4 color decoders to be indentical under each Axis value, in the future you will see no change when changing the Axis value.


This is exactly like the "MIDE" setting (which goes from 1-60), changing it only makes a difference because it effects 20 sub-values. If you went through each MIDE setting, and then set each of the 20 sub-values to the same pattern 60 times, then in the future when you change MIDE, every MIDE value would look the same.


If you already know this, or if there's something i'm missing let me know.


For you, i'm guessing that you can only have a single Axis setting for each input. In other words, the Axis setting is global for all resolutions on one input.


----------



## AVSUser2005




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Napoleon D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> AVSUser - I'm a little confused when you say that changing the Axis has any difference on what you're seeing, or when you say "the AXIS looks best at 1 with 720P and 1080i."
> 
> 
> As far as i know, and i could be wrong, the Axis button ONLY serves as a grouping-value, which affects only the 4 color-decoding values. Pretend you have 4 identical garages each with a different color car. If you change which garage you use, you change the look of the car inside. If you take the same red car and put one in each garage, then changing the garage makes no difference anymore.
> 
> 
> You mentioned that changing Axis in one example gets rid of the red-push for 480p. It's not the Axis you should be focusing on, it's the color-decoding entires linked to each Axis. The only reason Axis-0 gets rid of a red push is because the color-decoding linked to that value just happens to have a lower red setting - this is the factory setting. You can change that.
> 
> 
> When you change Axis from 1 to 0, you will then notice that the 4 color-values (RYR-GYB), which come right after Axis in the menu, change along with it. Try setting Axis to 0, and then change the colors to 15-13-6-4, hit save.... If you were then to change Axis to 1, you will see different colors. Why? If you go forward you will then see that the color-decoding is at a different pattern now, as it was the pattern that is stored for that specific Axis. Having Axis at 1, then change the colors to 15-13-6-4, and hit save. Now if you change the Axis back from 1 to 0, you will notice zero change in the colors.
> 
> 
> I could be wrong about this, as i've only tried this over component only. But from all i've seen, the Axis is nothing more than a storage value that affects nothing except the 4 color decoding values that follow it. If you set the 4 color decoders to be indentical under each Axis value, in the future you will see no change when changing the Axis value.
> 
> 
> This is exactly like the "MIDE" setting (which goes from 1-60), changing it only makes a difference because it effects 20 sub-values. If you went through each MIDE setting, and then set each of the 20 sub-values to the same pattern 60 times, then in the future when you change MIDE, every MIDE value would look the same.
> 
> 
> If you already know this, or if there's something i'm missing let me know.
> 
> 
> For you, i'm guessing that you can only have a single Axis setting for each input. In other words, the Axis setting is global for all resolutions on one input.




Ok - well - where to start. From what I've read in the SM data table for my 960 - HDMI can have dynamicly assigned color tone based on a digital value assigned during the handshake - a U_Tiny bit value that determines the AXIS value.


With my TV - changing the AXIS, does not change the actual integer values of the color decored values. The 15-13-6-4 is applied globally, to all inputs, at all resolutions, to all AXIS values - as is the GAMM setting, and the GAMR/GAMB/GAMG settings. None of those settings change based on Input, resolution, or AXIS setting. They are all shared. With Component, 480i and 480P share a common AXIS setting - and 720P and 1080i also share a unique axis setting. With HDMI - only one AXIS setting is saved for all 3 resolutions - 480P/720P/1080i - I cannot assign a unique AXIS value to 480P to correct the RED offeset - since it wont save it, and because the AXIS value does not effect the values of the color decoder, nor does it change them from my global 15-13-6-4 setting.


I really wish it worked like you describe - it's bothersome that the highest fidelity input on the TV happens to have a color decoder discrepency. I THINK - I have managed to remedy the issue today - by applying AXIS = 0 to 480P - making perfect color deconding there - and saving it. Going into 720P and 1080i and looking at color calibration patterns after power cycling the TV to force a handshake, it appears to have fixed the problem. I have yet to go back into the SM and turn off the individual guns to see the result - but to the eye, the color levels of R, G and B look perfectly even, as they do in 480P through HDMI.


This is seemingly a quirk with the firmware on the TV - but unfortunately, new firmware cannot be added. Soo - this is where I'm at. The other issue I have, is that black level through HDMI is MUCH deeper than through other sources. I can crang up the SBOF value till the screen glows slightly - but even with 5% shadow visible, the blacks seem to be culled - this is with DC current modulation off, BLK set to 0, YLMT set to 1 (off) - and all other black level limiters disabled. It seems that this is only an (apparent) issue with HDMI in HD - as I don't notice the issue in 480P through HDMI.


My biggest problem now is taking the back of the TV off and performing a static convergence adjustment on horizontal lines. The TV must've been banged a little during shipping, and for a TV of it's size - it seems to be off quite a bit. One question - you have a CRT RPTV correct? You had an ISF calibrator adjust it right? Did he have to wear any protective eye-wear or clothing during the calibration of the CRT convergence? I'm just playing it safe until I hear back from someone who has whitnessed it first-hand.


Thanks soo much for helping me with this.


----------



## CharlesDickens




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CharlesDickens* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So, I fixed my problem but I can't figure out how to get out of service mode. Please help me!



To give a bit more details there is this a screen stuck on my TV. There are three titles: Front End, In Band (FAT), Out of Band (FDC). I have a pic of it but forum rules won't allow me to post it.


I've tried the log in to service combo again but that didn't take me out of it. It just put the service menu over the top of this screen. I even tried unplugging the TV to see if it would go back. Please help as I'm freaking out that I might have screwed up my TV.


I have a KD-34XBR970. Help, please.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CharlesDickens* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To give a bit more details there is this a screen stuck on my TV. There are three titles: Front End, In Band (FAT), Out of Band (FDC).



I think that's one of the QM "Info" screens, if I recall correctly. If so, You can easily accidently write the value which leaves one of those screens up(or from the QM PATN section) without knowing you did so. But, thankfully it's just as easy to Write QM/#0 - info to "0" (the "#0 -info" screens have values of 1~7 or more, 0 turns them off) and get it off there. See here for more detailed info(except substitute QM "#0 - Info" where he says #1-PATN) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8430148


----------



## CharlesDickens




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think that's one of the QM "Info" screens, if I recall correctly. If so, You can easily accidently write the value which leaves one of those screens up(or from the QM PATN section) without knowing you did so. But, thankfully it's just as easy to Write QM/#0 - info to "0" (the "#0 -info" screens have values of 1~7 or more, 0 turns them off) and get it off there. See here for more detailed info(except substitute QM "#0 - Info" where he says #1-PATN) :



God bless you. That was exactly it. I really, really appreciate you helping me with this. I think I set off some other stuff that I'll have to fix tomorrow but at least it's watchable now. Thank you again, I appreciate it.


----------



## fullmetal22

I have yet another question about overscan. I know adjusting vpos and hpos can negatively effect geometry... but does vsiz and hsiz also effect geometry? I know your suppose to adjust them both the same. Like if you take vsiz down two clicks your suppose to do the same with hsiz. thanks


----------



## Vega78




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fullmetal22* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have yet another question about overscan. I know adjusting vpos and hpos can negatively effect geometry... but does vsiz and hsiz also effect geometry? I know your suppose to adjust them both the same. Like if you take vsiz down two clicks your suppose to do the same with hsiz. thanks



Absolutely. If you screw with the VSIZ, you need to adjust HSIZ as well. If you are trying to fix a problem like everyones head looks fat or too tall, then you adjust them seperately. If you are just trying to get rid of underscan or overscan, then adjust both together like if you adjust VSIZ from 24 to 34, then adjust the HSIZ up 10 points. There is a disclaimer though. Due to the flat tube design, the picture at the extreme left and right does tend to stretch and will give you false readings on your adjustments. To get the best results when adjusting V and HSIZ is to have a circle pattern in the center of the screen where there is the least amount of stretching or warping to make sure that the picture is sized correctly. I recommend using the THX optimizer if you don't already have a test pattern DVD. The optimizer can be found on some DVDs. Pearl Harbor has it for sure, but it's not the only movie that does.


----------



## Vega78

I now have a question that perhaps someone can answer. I have a Sony 970. I have just discovered that on any source at 480i, my blacks and gray tones have a heavy greenish tint to them. However on 480p, 720p, and 1080i, the halftones are all normal. I checked this out with the tv's self genertated gray scale test patterns in the tech rep mode and sure enough, 1080i, 720p, and 480p were all normal except for 480i. The 480i gray scale has a strong presence of green. I was wondering if there is possibly a gamma or RGB gun adjustment for each resolution in the tech rep mode.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fullmetal22* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have yet another question about overscan. I know adjusting vpos and hpos can negatively effect geometry... but does vsiz and hsiz also effect geometry? I know your suppose to adjust them both the same. Like if you take vsiz down two clicks your suppose to do the same with hsiz. thanks



I don't understand how this perspective came to be "gospel", that the very service menu controls provided by Sony to adjust overscan/geometry are somehow NOT to be used to control overscan/geometry without fear of doing some terrible harm! I believe it is simply a matter of doing the adjustments carefully and appropriately, using all of the available and appropriate service menu items...and you will end up with perfection (at least to your eyes, since this whole process is at least somewhat subjective, not to mention a function of each individual set and whether or not you've also had some Sony service technician magnet work done on your set's picture tube and how well that effort turned out... remembering that this is an ANALOG device with a rectangular flat picture tube and its resulting inherent imperfections).


For newcomers to this thread who haven't read every post, I suggest looking at my earlier post which provides a colorized Excel spreadsheet showing my USER MENU settings in rows 1-74 and SERVICE MENU settings in rows 75-later, for my 34XBR960.


Your mileage may vary, but what's obvious from my settings shown in this spreadsheet is that I have used ALL of the available adjustments to obtain rectangular perfection (to my eyes, as best as can be obtained with my particular 34XBR960 and the results of my Sony service technician picture tube magnet job).


And the blow-by-blow of how I used all available controls in 2170D-1, 2170D-2, and MID3, along with an overscan test pattern (if you can connect your PC to your Sony set) if you don't have DVE or AVIA, is described in this post . Just be sure to follow the imbedded backward links in that post, to get all editorializing and specifics.


Bottom line: I learned about ALL of the available service menu adjustments for geometry/overscan from KenTech's wonderful treatises that started this thread. And this pretty much boiled down to a handful of controls in 2170D-1, 2170D-2, and MID3 (at least for the 720p/1080i inputs, since I watch just about 100% HDTV-only on my set, from OTA or cable/DVR). I'm not as concerned with 480i (and honestly not even with 480p, since I very very rarely watch DVDs) although I do sometimes watch 480i from D* via S-video on my set.


Early on in this thread I never saw any warnings about NOT using MID3 to complete the geometry/overscan adjustments started in 2170D-1 and 2170D-2, and I have never been able complete those adjustments without using MID3. Somehow, these "warnings" came to life only fairly recently, but (not to be flippant) I have disregarded them. All the controls are required to adjust the background and foreground components which produce the resulting image onscreen, and in my opinion they must all be used.


----------



## midnite2

I am new to this but would like to move the overall picture up and to the left for every input and setting. Will changing HPOS and VPOS in 2170D-1, 2170D-2 do it? Should I just adjust the vertical adjustment in the user menu and horizontal in the SM? I am trying to keep this as easy as possible for myself. I have read through this thread and I am confused if I also need to adjust HNCT and/or settings in MID2/3? any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *midnite2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am new to this but would like to move the overall picture up and to the left for every input and setting. Will changing HPOS and VPOS in 2170D-1, 2170D-2 do it? Should I just adjust the vertical adjustment in the user menu and horizontal in the SM? I am trying to keep this as easy as possible for myself. I have read through this thread and I am confused if I also need to adjust HNCT and/or settings in MID2/3? any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> thanks



(1) Whatever you decide to try and change (to see what happens, and to decide for yourself whether or not your problem is completely resolved to your satisfaction), be sure and write down all of the current values for these settings before you change anything. That way you can always put things back the way they were before you started fooling around.


(2) You MUST have a stationary test pattern to use for your controlled primary adjustments, provided either by a calibration DVD (e.g. Digital Video Essentials). Don't think you can accomplish anything good with a "live" and moving picture from real content.


(3) Personally, in my 34XBR960 case all of the vertical adjustments in the user menu are unaltered from their 0 position (as they came from the factory). I used only the service menu to move things around.


(4) I believe that the horizontal and vertical size and position controls in the service menu are "global", in that you don't have to go to every input uniquely and accept every HD resolution on the HD inputs uniquely in order to set the geometry/overscan for the set. I believe what you set becomes effective for all inputs. This can be seen by my spreadsheet since adjustments were done only using one input and resolution and yet all of those same setting values seem to have gotten propagated to all inputs and resolutions columns.


(5) In 2170D-1 I used 0 (VPOS vertical position) and 1 (VSIZ vertical size) to adjust the "background" vertically. In 2170D-2 I used only 1 (HPOS horizontal position) and 2 (HSIZ horizontal size) to adjust the "background" horizontally. In MID3 I used 0 (VDHP horizontal position), 1 (VDHS horizontal size), 2 (VDVE vertical position) and 3 (VDVS vertical size) to manipulate the "foreground image" on top of the "background".


(6) Your description of a desire to move your picture "up and to the left" (though you haven't added what input or resolution you're looking at) has a vertical and horizontal component to it, so you will probably need to use all of the vertical and horizontal controls... in the service menu, not user menu. Just be sure you have all of your initial values written down first. And be sure and adjust ONE CLICK AT A TIME, to see what happens onscreen. Did that do the trick, or do you need ONE MORE CLICK? Slow and steady, go back and forth, better or worse, etc.


(7) Also, inevitably you have to return to an item you've already adjusted and moved on because you thought that one was finished, just to see whether your initial setting is still ok or perhaps has been affected by some other later adjustment somewhere else. It will be easy to test whether it's still good or bad by just ONE CLICK up/down or left/right, to view the effect and decide whether you should leave things as they are or go with the new setting or reverse directions or whatever. Slow and steady.


(8) Write your adjusted values down as you settle on them.


(9) Horizontal and vertical SIZE adjustments allow you to manipulate "overscan", and I'm sure that you'll want to look at that as well. With a proper stationary test pattern (cross-hatched, with grid marks that show percentages) you will be able to work on this as well. It'll be easy to see how much of the pattern's perimeter edges has been "cropped out" by the overscan settings, and then how much you can bring cleanly back in (without introducing edge anomalies or video noise) by your adjustments.


(10) Again... write everything down when you start, before you change any particular value. And then write your ending/adjusted values down as well. If you want you can certainly use my spreadsheet as a starting point for your own reference, but I can't promise that the XBR960 and XS955 service menu items and default values are the same. However you can obviously modify your copy of my spreadsheet as needed.


And do your experimenting and adjustment ONE CLICK AT A TIME, observing what happens on the screen... better or worse.



Good luck.


----------



## studdad

Hey everyone:


Ok, I have been reading this forum for a couple days, and am getting a headache. Information overload. I don't mind going into the SM, but I was wondering if anyone has a list of settings for the 36xs955? I realize each tv is different, but I figure if I had a complete list, I could write down my current settings, change them all to the settings of someone who has had success with the same set, then fine tune for my specific tv. It would save me a great deal of time and aggravation. I currently have the above mentioned tv, Yamaha 661 receiver, directv HR20-100 DVR, Oppo 981 DVD, and a nice VCR that i rarely use and could care less about. I have my DVR and DVD hooked up to the receiver via HDMI, and the receiver to the TV via HDMI. The VCR is hooked up via component. My biggest concerns are the clearest HD and SD signals possible (with more emphasis on HD), as well as the problem this Sony seems to have with compressing HD images, i.e. when watching HD the tv seems to compress it into a narrow horizontal strip....almost like compressing the normal letterbox image twice. I use the verical expand to see more image, but even that does not seem to expand it as far as it should (when I bought the set, I was told it would give a 33" HD letterbox picture,,,,it is nowhere near that). I don't know if anything can be done about the HD compression, but any help would be greatly appreciated, as well as the starting points in the SM. I know all of you have spent a great deal of time learning this stuff, and I plan to do so as well, but right now I need something to give me a better picture before I lose my mind. Thanks in advance.


----------



## midnite2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (1) Whatever you decide to try and change (to see what happens, and to decide for yourself whether or not your problem is completely resolved to your satisfaction), be sure and write down all of the current values for these settings before you change anything. That way you can always put things back the way they were before you started fooling around.
> 
> 
> (2) You MUST have a stationary test pattern to use for your controlled primary adjustments, provided either by a calibration DVD (e.g. Digital Video Essentials). Don't think you can accomplish anything good with a "live" and moving picture from real content.
> 
> 
> (3) Personally, in my 34XBR960 case all of the vertical adjustments in the user menu are unaltered from their 0 position (as they came from the factory). I used only the service menu to move things around.
> 
> 
> (4) I believe that the horizontal and vertical size and position controls in the service menu are "global", in that you don't have to go to every input uniquely and accept every HD resolution on the HD inputs uniquely in order to set the geometry/overscan for the set. I believe what you set becomes effective for all inputs. This can be seen by my spreadsheet since adjustments were done only using one input and resolution and yet all of those same setting values seem to have gotten propagated to all inputs and resolutions columns.
> 
> 
> (5) In 2170D-1 I used 0 (VPOS vertical position) and 1 (VSIZ vertical size) to adjust the "background" vertically. In 2170D-2 I used only 1 (HPOS horizontal position) and 2 (HSIZ horizontal size) to adjust the "background" horizontally. In MID3 I used 0 (VDHP horizontal position), 1 (VDHS horizontal size), 2 (VDVE vertical position) and 3 (VDVS vertical size) to manipulate the "foreground image" on top of the "background".
> 
> 
> (6) Your description of a desire to move your picture "up and to the left" (though you haven't added what input or resolution you're looking at) has a vertical and horizontal component to it, so you will probably need to use all of the vertical and horizontal controls... in the service menu, not user menu. Just be sure you have all of your initial values written down first. And be sure and adjust ONE CLICK AT A TIME, to see what happens onscreen. Did that do the trick, or do you need ONE MORE CLICK? Slow and steady, go back and forth, better or worse, etc.
> 
> 
> (7) Also, inevitably you have to return to an item you've already adjusted and moved on because you thought that one was finished, just to see whether your initial setting is still ok or perhaps has been affected by some other later adjustment somewhere else. It will be easy to test whether it's still good or bad by just ONE CLICK up/down or left/right, to view the effect and decide whether you should leave things as they are or go with the new setting or reverse directions or whatever. Slow and steady.
> 
> 
> (8) Write your adjusted values down as you settle on them.
> 
> 
> (9) Horizontal and vertical SIZE adjustments allow you to manipulate "overscan", and I'm sure that you'll want to look at that as well. With a proper stationary test pattern (cross-hatched, with grid marks that show percentages) you will be able to work on this as well. It'll be easy to see how much of the pattern's perimeter edges has been "cropped out" by the overscan settings, and then how much you can bring cleanly back in (without introducing edge anomalies or video noise) by your adjustments.
> 
> 
> (10) Again... write everything down when you start, before you change any particular value. And then write your ending/adjusted values down as well. If you want you can certainly use my spreadsheet as a starting point for your own reference, but I can't promise that the XBR960 and XS955 service menu items and default values are the same. However you can obviously modify your copy of my spreadsheet as needed.
> 
> 
> And do your experimenting and adjustment ONE CLICK AT A TIME, observing what happens on the screen... better or worse.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck.



DSperber, thanks for your detailed response. This forum is a wonderful resource. Currently I am using and HD cable box hooked through component and a sony dvd player through HDMI. I have used the Avia DVD images to test the DVD player through HDMI and some pictures through component/cable box. Both are upscaling to 1080i. So I guess I have not tested other resolutions other than 1080i. both inputs seem to be off about the same, a little to the right and a little down. I think 2-3 clicks to the left and 2-3 clicks up would fix it. Right now I am not going to mess with VSIZ and HSIZ. I am confused with why I also need to make these changes in MID3 too. Just changing HPOS and VPOS in 2170D-1/2 would not do it? I do not seem to have the MID3 adjustments you have mentioned in MID3 or any MID. I have also noticed when reading the manual it states something about adjusting AGNG and HBLK when doing these adjustments. Do I need to adjust these too even if I am only adjusting HPOS and VPOS not VSIZ/HSIZ? Thanks


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *midnite2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> both inputs seem to be off about the same, a little to the right and a little down. I think 2-3 clicks to the left and 2-3 clicks up would fix it. Right now I am not going to mess with VSIZ and HSIZ.



If you get what you want, then that's all you need to touch.




> Quote:
> I am confused with why I also need to make these changes in MID3 too. Just changing HPOS and VPOS in 2170D-1/2 would not do it?



A picture's worth a thousand words. Just write down what you start from and you can always go back to that if you think you ended up worse.


Think Photoshop. 2170D-1/2 affects H/V size/position of the background (i.e. "canvas"), on top of which MID3 affects H/V size/position of the foreground layers (i.e. "image") which can be resized and moved around independently of the background (canvas) on which it is overlayed. It may seem overly complex, but there really are two components (background and foreground) to how Sony's implemented the display and its adjustments. And you can adjust both components independently.


But the best way for you to see this is to actually play with it. Start off with 2170D-1/2 and do the clicks you think are appropriate. Watch the test pattern on the screen as you do this. Then, try each of the four controls in MID3 and see what happens to the edges of the test pattern. You will see more or less of that pattern as you touch those four MID3 controls, and it will now be apparent to you just what you're adjusting with MID3 that's different from what you did with 2170D-1/2. Personally, I believe proper adjustment includes MID3 tweaks, but YMMV.




> Quote:
> If I do need to makes changes in MID3 should I do those before or after I make changes to 2170D-1/2?



I'd say start with 2170D-1/2, and then go to MID3. But I'm sure you'll then come back to 2170D-1/2 to see what happens if you now add or subtract one more click there... and then go back to MID3, etc., until you've finally got "perfection" to your eyes.




> Quote:
> I have also noticed when reading the manual it states something about adjusting AGNG and HBLK when doing these adjustments. Do I need to adjust these too even if I am only adjusting HPOS and VPOS not VSIZ/HSIZ?



Well I do believe that is the proper technique according to some very skilled people who've contributed to this thread. But in my own personal case I didn't touch those (I actually didn't know about them at the time I did my tweaks) and I really don't know that it made any difference. I was still able to get my overscan to where I wanted it even without temporarily uncovering the edges of the screen through those controls. However I do believe you're right, those controls should be used... at least when working on overscan.


----------



## midnite2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you get what you want, then that's all you need to touch.
> 
> 
> 
> A picture's worth a thousand words. Just write down what you start from and you can always go back to that if you think you ended up worse.
> 
> 
> Think Photoshop. 2170D-1/2 affects H/V size/position of the background (i.e. "canvas"), on top of which MID3 affects H/V size/position of the foreground layers (i.e. "image") which can be resized and moved around independently of the background (canvas) on which it is overlayed. It may seem overly complex, but there really are two components (background and foreground) to how Sony's implemented the display and its adjustments. And you can adjust both components independently.
> 
> 
> But the best way for you to see this is to actually play with it. Start off with 2170D-1/2 and do the clicks you think are appropriate. Watch the test pattern on the screen as you do this. Then, try each of the four controls in MID3 and see what happens to the edges of the test pattern. You will see more or less of that pattern as you touch those four MID3 controls, and it will now be apparent to you just what you're adjusting with MID3 that's different from what you did with 2170D-1/2. Personally, I believe proper adjustment includes MID3 tweaks, but YMMV.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say start with 2170D-1/2, and then go to MID3. But I'm sure you'll then come back to 2170D-1/2 to see what happens if you now add or subtract one more click there... and then go back to MID3, etc., until you've finally got "perfection" to your eyes.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I do believe that is the proper technique according to some very skilled people who've contributed to this thread. But in my own personal case I didn't touch those (I actually didn't know about them at the time I did my tweaks) and I really don't know that it made any difference. I was still able to get my overscan to where I wanted it even without temporarily uncovering the edges of the screen through those controls. However I do believe you're right, those controls should be used... at least when working on overscan.



DSperber, thanks again. I believe I was editing my post when you responded to me. I do not seem to have the MID3 adjustments you mention. I have looked at the service manual and do not see them anywhere, is that possible? Another question I have is, will changing the settings in 2170D-1/2 only work for the resolution I am using globally? Should I mess with HCNT? What is the difference with adjusting HPOS compared to HCNT? Some people seem to recommend adjusting HCNT while others HPOS? Hopefully this is the last of my questions. I really appreciate your time in responding.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *midnite2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do not seem to have the MID3 adjustments you mention. I have looked at the service manual and do not see them anywhere, is that possible?



I have a 34XBR960, and that's all I'm familiar with firsthand I'm afraid. My spreadsheet thus is specifically for a 34XBR960 of my firmware level.


Only someone else with a 34XS955 can really answer your question.


However I have worked on my cousin's older XBR800 which also did not have MID3, and instead there were similar (but differently named) controls in MID1 which seemed to be relevant. His MID1 did not match the MID1 of the XBR960 list. However as I recall there was something different about the whole approach for that set and either I actually didn't need to adjust MID1 or it didn't accomplish what I wanted or something. Can't recall. I think for his set the 2170D-1/2 adjustments were all I had to work with but ended up sufficient to do the job, without MID1 or MID3.


Anyway, I really can only speak for the XBR960, not the XS955.




> Quote:
> Another question I have is, will changing the settings in 2170D-1/2 only work for the resolution I am using globally?



As my spreadsheet shows, I only adjusted in these two groups at one input/resolution, and yet the adjusted values appear to have been propagated to all inputs/resolutions.


I'd say the adjustments are "global".




> Quote:
> Should I mess with HCNT? What is the difference with adjusting HPOS compared to HCNT? Some people seem to recommend adjusting HCNT while others HPOS?



My spreadsheet shows both values at 32(31), meaning the value has been tweaked from the official service menu default. As to whether I did that, or Sony factory did it and I got it that way... I don't remember.


But just try it for yourself and see what happens. These are all controls which apparently have some effect on the result, else why are they there? You can always put it back if it doesn't look improved, as long as you wrote down and know what value you started from.


I'm sure there will be other controls you'll begin to fool with, to perhaps try and address issues of convergence, linearity, curvature, bowing, etc. And since your set is different from my set, and I've had a Sony tech do magnet work on my picture tube, it's guaranteed that my other significant adjustments in 2170D-1/2 and D-CONV will NOT be directly transferrable to your set (not to mention that I have an XBR960 and you have an XS955). And yet, you're free to experiment with these yourself if you have other imperfections you'd like to try and address (using your test pattern, of course).


----------



## studdad




----------



## midnite2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a 34XBR960, and that's all I'm familiar with firsthand I'm afraid. My spreadsheet thus is specifically for a 34XBR960 of my firmware level.
> 
> 
> Only someone else with a 34XS955 can really answer your question.
> 
> 
> However I have worked on my cousin's older XBR800 which also did not have MID3, and instead there were similar (but differently named) controls in MID1 which seemed to be relevant. His MID1 did not match the MID1 of the XBR960 list. However as I recall there was something different about the whole approach for that set and either I actually didn't need to adjust MID1 or it didn't accomplish what I wanted or something. Can't recall. I think for his set the 2170D-1/2 adjustments were all I had to work with but ended up sufficient to do the job, without MID1 or MID3.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I really can only speak for the XBR960, not the XS955.
> 
> 
> 
> As my spreadsheet shows, I only adjusted in these two groups at one input/resolution, and yet the adjusted values appear to have been propagated to all inputs/resolutions.
> 
> 
> I'd say the adjustments are "global".
> 
> 
> 
> My spreadsheet shows both values at 32(31), meaning the value has been tweaked from the official service menu default. As to whether I did that, or Sony factory did it and I got it that way... I don't remember.
> 
> 
> But just try it for yourself and see what happens. These are all controls which apparently have some effect on the result, else why are they there? You can always put it back if it doesn't look improved, as long as you wrote down and know what value you started from.
> 
> 
> I'm sure there will be other controls you'll begin to fool with, to perhaps try and address issues of convergence, linearity, curvature, bowing, etc. And since your set is different from my set, and I've had a Sony tech do magnet work on my picture tube, it's guaranteed that my other significant adjustments in 2170D-1/2 and D-CONV will NOT be directly transferrable to your set (not to mention that I have an XBR960 and you have an XS955). And yet, you're free to experiment with these yourself if you have other imperfections you'd like to try and address (using your test pattern, of course).



DSperber, thanks for your responses. I made adjustments to HPOS and VPOS in 2170D-1/2 last night and all seems well. I am now going to try tinkering with overscan this weekend and try to find the MID settings for these adjustments. I really appreciate your thorough responses. I have learned a great deal in the last two days.

thanks


----------



## lanzarlaluna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *midnite2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> DSperber, thanks for your responses. I made adjustments to HPOS and VPOS in 2170D-1/2 last night and all seems well. I am now going to try tinkering with overscan this weekend and try to find the MID settings for these adjustments. I really appreciate your thorough responses. I have learned a great deal in the last two days.
> 
> thanks



If I'm not mistaken, the 955 is the more accurate predecessor to the 970, which I own. On my set, MID position and size adjustments are not completely exclusive to all inputs and screen modes. I have noticed that my component inputs (4 & 5) share MID position settings within a particular screen mode (eg. Full). I'm not sure if this is the case with all the Sony sets or not. I thought everything was independent at first, until I started going crazy switching between the Wii and PS2 using input 4 and 5, respectively. Just something to think about before you start tinkering.


----------



## bejoykr

Somewhere in this forum I came across someone asking how to fix this problem(see attachment), and now can't find the post. (got the attachment from browser history).


I have a 32HS500 which has this issue. Was there a fix provided? Or can anybody tell me if this can be fixed?


TIA


----------



## Wickerman1972

So, does there happen to be a XBR970 service manual floating around in this thread anywhere? With this thread being 82 pages it would take an eternity for me to search all of it to find out. Just wondering if any of you guys know offhand.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wickerman1972* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So, does there happen to be a XBR970 service manual floating around in this thread anywhere? With this thread being 82 pages it would take an eternity for me to search all of it to find out. Just wondering if any of you guys know offhand.



While the service manuel i have is not specific to the XBR970 it does cover all the codes though for the various model of sony tv's such as HS420/XBR970,XBR960,XS955.


And is very detailed on most of the codes functions.


If anybody wants one PM me with your mailing address and $5










Reason why i ask for $5 is the information is very valuable, it's my bible of the sony gods.


----------



## jerryboy808

I know that RCUT and RDRV both have something to do with the color red, but can anyone explain how or what exactly are these things doing if you change them?


----------



## Leonjr76

I asked a question on the last page and have not received a reply. So I am thinking either the description I gave for the problem was not good enough, or no one else has had the problem to comment on.


I hope I just did not describe the problem good enough.


Here goes again. My 30-xs955 has a noticeable red tint when no signal is present with slightly more red lines running from left to right. They are not perfectly straight but are perpendicular to each other.


I believe that the background should be completely black when no signal is present. I may be wrong in assuming this but do not believe that I am.


This is present on all inputs, it is visible on tv shows especially dark ones like Lost.


I also have a xbr960 that does not display this particular problem. Any help would be appreciated.


Thanks


----------



## QuiGonJosh

I've been tinkering with the service menu and I've decided that I want to start from scratch. Yet, when I press 7 and/or 9 and turn it off, the settings are the same as when I changed them when I turn the television back on. How do I get the settings back to "factory set"?


The main problem I'm having is that when the shot moves horizontally, it's like it's not spread out equally. Like when something from the side of the screen moves to the middle, it gets skinnier and when it gets to the sides, the object becomes wider. Any help would be grateful. I have a 970, btw.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QuiGonJosh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've been tinkering with the service menu and I've decided that I want to start from scratch. Yet, when I press 7 and/or 9 and turn it off, the settings are the same as when I changed them when I turn the television back on. How do I get the settings back to "factory set"?
> 
> 
> The main problem I'm having is that when the shot moves horizontally, it's like it's not spread out equally. Like when something from the side of the screen moves to the middle, it gets skinnier and when it gets to the sides, the object becomes wider. Any help would be grateful. I have a 970, btw.



Please do not attempt any type of reset in the service menu. It will cause you a world of hurt. You should have written down all of your service menu settings PRIOR to making any adjustments so that you could always get back to a factory aligned state.


The main problem you mentioned sounds like the effect of wide zoom screen mode. An explanation of the screen modes can be found in your instruction manual. What mode are you using for these adjustments? You mentioned in another post that you only view DVDs on your set. Anamorphic/enhanced for 16:9 DVDs should be viewed in FULL screen mode while 4:3 DVDs can be viewed in NORMAL screen mode (with black pillars but no stretching) or WIDE ZOOM mode (with no black pillars but with a non-linear stretch).


----------



## QuiGonJosh




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Please do not attempt any type of reset in the service menu. It will cause you a world of hurt. You should have written down all of your service menu settings PRIOR to making any adjustments so that you could always get back to a factory aligned state.



I did it once before and it just set the settings back to what they were before I went into the service menu.



> Quote:
> The main problem you mentioned sounds like the effect of wide zoom screen mode. An explanation of the screen modes can be found in your instruction manual. What mode are you using for these adjustments? You mentioned in another post that you only view DVDs on your set. Anamorphic/enhanced for 16:9 DVDs should be viewed in FULL screen mode while 4:3 DVDs can be viewed in NORMAL screen mode (with black pillars but no stretching) or WIDE ZOOM mode (with no black pillars but with a non-linear stretch).



I'm viewing my DVD's in Full mode. The problem isn't quite as bad as if it were in Wide Zoom, but it's still the same kind of problem, just to a lesser effect.


Could someone tell me which setting in the service menu would help this problem? Or at least explain how to reset the service menu settings? Or does anyone know the defaults for some of the horizontal/vertical settings? I should have played it smart and written down the defaults.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QuiGonJosh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I did it once before and it just set the settings back to what they were before I went into the service menu.
> 
> 
> I'm viewing my DVD's in Full mode. The problem isn't quite as bad as if it were in Wide Zoom, but it's still the same kind of problem, just to a lesser effect.
> 
> 
> Could someone tell me which setting in the service menu would help this problem? Or at least explain how to reset the service menu settings? Or does anyone know the defaults for some of the horizontal/vertical settings? I should have played it smart and written down the defaults.



I don't have the Sony service manual for the XBR970 but have them for every crt set prior.

*If* you were successful in a previous reset then I'll bet you already have issues. I believe a full NVM (non-volatile memory) reset will default the service menu parameters to a state that is used at the factory PRIOR to factory alignments. You *DON'T* want to be there. The greatest apparent effect of a reset will be on geometry (your current problem) and convergence (white lines have red/blue borders).


That being said, all prior XBR CRT sets use the following to reset NVM in the service menu. 7, then 9, then enter


BTW, don't do it. Did I say don't do it?







Damn, this thread is dangerous.


----------



## QuiGonJosh




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't have the Sony service manual for the XBR970 but have them for every crt set prior.
> 
> *If* you were successful in a previous reset then I'll bet you already have issues. I believe a full NVM (non-volatile memory) reset will default the service menu parameters to a state that is used at the factory PRIOR to factory alignments. You *DON'T* want to be there. The greatest apparent effect of a reset will be on geometry (your current problem) and convergence (white lines have red/blue borders).
> 
> 
> That being said, all prior XBR CRT sets use the following to reset NVM in the service menu. 7, then 9, then enter
> 
> 
> BTW, don't do it. Did I say don't do it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn, this thread is dangerous.



This will just reset it to the state that it was when I first hooked it up, correct? It won't affect my contrast, brightness, etc. settings in the regular menu, will it?


Also, does anyone know what the default settings are for the following: SLIN, HCNT, VSCO, VSIZ, and HSIZ? If I know the defaults, it might make a reset seem moot.


I'm also seeing some convergence problems as well, but they aren't bugging me as much as the geometry ones.


----------



## G-Bull





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QuiGonJosh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This will just reset it to the state that it was when I first hooked it up, correct? It won't affect my contrast, brightness, etc. settings in the regular menu, will it?



No, what raouliii is saying is that this will reset it to it's infant state - before the technicians at the Sony factory set it up. It will likely be nothing at all like it was when you first hooked it up.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QuiGonJosh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, does anyone know what the default settings are for the following: SLIN, HCNT, VSCO, VSIZ, and HSIZ? If I know the defaults, it might make a reset seem moot.



There are no "default" settings for the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 parameters. Since every set is differnet, the technicians at the Sony factory adjust the TV to factory specs, and those settings would be considered the "default" settings for your TV. They're different from the straight-from-the-factory settings for every other TV. AFAIK, if you didn't write those settings down and know what they are, then you don't have them anymore, and there's no way to reset the TV to how it came from the factory.


----------



## QuiGonJosh




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No, what raouliii is saying is that this will reset it to it's infant state - before the technicians at the Sony factory set it up. It will likely be nothing at all like it was when you first hooked it up.
> 
> 
> There are no "default" settings for the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 parameters. Since every set is differnet, the technicians at the Sony factory adjust the TV to factory specs, and those settings would be considered the "default" settings for your TV. They're different from the straight-from-the-factory settings for every other TV. AFAIK, if you didn't write those settings down and know what they are, then you don't have them anymore, and there's no way to reset the TV to how it came from the factory.



I reset it a couple of days ago and it looked like it did when I first hooked it up. Complete with the bowing on the left hand side of screen. I was just wanting to reset it so that I could just fix that and leave everything else alone.


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QuiGonJosh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I reset it a couple of days ago and it looked like it did when I first hooked it up. Complete with the bowing on the left hand side of screen. I was just wanting to reset it so that I could just fix that and leave everything else alone.



I've read too many horror stories in other posts here about people who reset the TV and messed it all up and couldn't get it back to how they wanted it, that I've never been willing to give the reset a try. But maybe Sony changed something with the "reset" functionality on this model, where it does like you say and sets it back to how it was when you first hooked it up, and not back to a pre-factory-setup state. I'm not willing to take the risk to try it to find out, so I can't say whether it will only reset the geometry problems or if it will reset all your user-menu settings and other service-menu settings, too. My suggestion is, if you know what the different geometry-correction functions in 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 do, don't bother to try to reset it to how it was from the factory. Just put a good geometry test pattern on the screen and keep going with your corrections until you get it looking good.


----------



## QuiGonJosh




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've read too many horror stories in other posts here about people who reset the TV and messed it all up and couldn't get it back to how they wanted it, that I've never been willing to give the reset a try. But maybe Sony changed something with the "reset" functionality on this model, where it does like you say and sets it back to how it was when you first hooked it up, and not back to a pre-factory-setup state. I'm not willing to take the risk to try it to find out, so I can't say whether it will only reset the geometry problems or if it will reset all your user-menu settings and other service-menu settings, too. My suggestion is, if you know what the different geometry-correction functions in 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 do, don't bother to try to reset it to how it was from the factory. Just put a good geometry test pattern on the screen and keep going with your corrections until you get it looking good.



When I reset it before, all of my standard menu settings (color, brightness, etc.) stayed the same, but the service menu settings went back to default. Perhaps Sony did change it with this brand.


But I think I've fixed the problem I was having using the HCNT settings and lowering it. At least, I hope. It seems to look right now.


----------



## tomhayes

I've really messed my Sony up geometry and screen size.


I DID NOT WRITE DOWN THE ORIGINAL VALUES FOR THE SERVICE ITEM. So I'm pretty well messed up right now.


The issue I'm having is I can not get the screen to display the entire frame without setting HSIZ to above 56, which makes the Video input and Screen mode labels be very cut off.
Code:


Code:


-----------------------------
|                                  |
|ideo6                          |
|                                  |
|                                  |
|ull Screen                   |
-----------------------------

I tried to set the default values as listed in this document:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=36480 


Frankly once I get to MID1, Item 7 I don't understand which value shoudl be which, so I tried them all and kept the closest one.


If anyone has any ideas please let me know. I'll type my serive code values below.

I am trying to do this on Video 5 or Video 6 in 1080i mode, using Full Screen (no zoom) as the screen mode.

My VSIZ value is lower becasue the default (39) looks way too stretched.

Here are MY values from the service menus.

Code:


Code:


2170D-1        210D-2
VPOS - 24      HCNT - 38
VSIZ - 28      HCNT - 38
VSZO - 0       HCNT - 38
VLIN - 4       HCNT - 38
VSCO - 7       HSIZ - 56
VCEN - 19      SLIN - 5
VPIN - 20      MPIN - 10
MVPN - 0       PIN -12
NSCO - 31      UCP - 37
HTPZ - 22      LCP - 43
MHTZ - 0       UXCG - 0
ZOOM - 0       LXCP - 2
APSW - 0       UXCP -2
ASPT - 0       CXPP - 0
SCRL - 31      PPHA - 14
UVLN - 0       VANG - 31
LVLN - 0       LANG - 31
                    VBOX - 31
                    LBOW - 31

2107-3
HBLK - 1
LBLK - 50
RBLK - 31
VBLK - 1
TBLK - 4
BBLK - 6
AFCM - 2
JUMP - 0
VDJP - 1
VDST - 0
AKBT - 16


MID-1         MID-3
DHPH - 108    VDHP - 107
DVPH - 35     VDHS - 240
DHAR - 240    VDVE - 19
DVAR - 135    VDVS - 135
DHPW - 55     VDVO - 0 
DVPW - 5      VCPO - 72
DYCD - 0      VCWD - 3
DYSD - 1      VYCD - 0
MDHP - 70     VSTP - 133
MDVP - 0      VSTT - 0
MDHS - 204    VHSC - 10
MDVS - 128    VFRV - 0

MLHP - 36
MLVP - 8
SDHP - 167
SDVP - 5
SDHS - 115
SDVS - 79
PDHP - 0
PDVP - 0
PDHS - 0
DPSW - 0
MDLV - 12
BCOL - 0
DYSS - 1
OSDH - 32
OSDV - 16


Thanks in advance,

Tom in San Diego


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tomhayes* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've really messed my Sony up geometry and screen size.
> 
> 
> I DID NOT WRITE DOWN THE ORIGINAL VALUES FOR THE SERVICE ITEM. So I'm pretty well messed up right now.



Since every set varies (and you haven't mentioned what set you actually own), it's hard to provide advice at this point that really might help you out.


But up a bit on this very page you will find my post that points to an earlier series of posts, the first of which provides an Excel spreadsheet showing my particular setup for all inputs and resolutions on my KD-34XBR960.


I think you will find that in my settings, my values of 2170D-1, 2170D-2, etc. are VERY DIFFERENT from the values you show as yours currently. Look in the 1080i-C column (amber colored column E in the spreadsheet) for the values you might want to try on your set, at least to begin with although you no doubt will have to make some adjustment for your own unique set.


Since your current values aren't working, and you have tried what was shown in that other "default" (i.e. service manual) PDF and it didn't fix things, and you didn't write down what you started from before you began tweaking, you have nothing to lose it seems by trying my values for my particular XBR960 (if that's your set as well).


Note that my spreadsheet (found in the first link-back post as I mention) shows the actual Sony Service Manual (which I own a copy of) defaults in parentheses, if my settings are other than defaults. Whether the adjust values came from the factory that way (already adjusted), or whether my sony service technician who came to do magnet work on my picture tube to address convergence problems did those adjustments, or whether I did those adjustments (after the magnet work was done)... it matters not. Those are my current settings for my XBR960, and those are the service manual defaults.


Remember... YMMV.


----------



## tomhayes

Oh, my bad. my set is the Sony KDXBR960 . How silly of me to write down all that data and not include the model. When I get home tonight I'll try your suggestions. Thanks.


----------



## Bob Coxner

I'm looking for the service code for Tilt correction on a Sony KD27FS170 model. Other models seem to use HTIL or NSCO but those are not available choices for this model.


Thanks in advance for any help.


----------



## tomhayes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since every set varies (and you haven't mentioned what set you actually own), it's hard to provide advice at this point that really might help you out.
> 
> Remember... YMMV.



This got me MUCH MUCH CLOSER!!!


The values most helpful were MDHP and MDHS.


Mine Yours

MDHP - 70 MDHP - 0

MDHS - 204 MDHS - 240


These fixed the HSIZ problem

My old HSIZ -56

New HSIZ - 41



Now my 480i input on component is messed up, but I'll fix it yet!!


Thanks for the help.


-Tom


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tomhayes* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This got me MUCH MUCH CLOSER!!!



Excellent news!




> Quote:
> The values most helpful were MDHP and MDHS.
> 
> 
> Mine Yours
> 
> MDHP - 70 MDHP - 0
> 
> MDHS - 204 MDHS - 240



Interesting, because these are in MID1. As you can see from the chart, there are no changes whatsoever in any MID1 item from the service manual defaults... not by the factory, not by me. I certainly didn't change anything here for my geometry/positioning/overscan adjustments.


It was in MID3 where I worked extensively... using 1080i-C input for my test pattern, along with 2170D-1 and 2170D-2. You can see all of those adjustments in my chart.




> Quote:
> These fixed the HSIZ problem
> 
> My old HSIZ -56
> 
> New HSIZ - 41



2170D-1 and 2170D-2 adjustments were critical for me, followed up by MID3, and then review of everything and fine tuning and re-review until finished.




> Quote:
> Now my 480i input on component is messed up, but I'll fix it yet!!



Good luck. I'm sure you'll find the sweet spot.


I very rarely pass through 480i on component, except by accident. I certainly never intentionally watch any SD channels from cable via DVR/component. I only watch HD programming from cable. That's the only reason I have cable at all... for HD.


For me, my occasional viewing of 480i SD on my XBR960 is from D*, using S-video from my Hughes E45/HDR-205 into INPUT1/3 of my XBR960. However my usual viewing of SD (news shows, Daily Show and Colbert, etc.) from D* is on conventional SD televisions, elsewhere around the house.


Honestly, my XBR960 is almost exclusively used for HD only.


----------



## gtriffplayer

New here.

Could some one please post or PM me an updated list of their calibrated service codes for a Sony KV-30HS420. I think I have nick2003's codes from 2006 but wanted a more updated list of calibrated codes if there is one to work from as a starting point as I start my very first self calibration. Thanks!! Wish me luck!


----------



## Shifty_Effect

Seriously, is there a service chart for the XBR970? and should i use the DVE disc then go into the SM?? Thanks!


----------



## ClayPigeon

Ok i got a question. Without reading most of this stuff, is kentech a ISF calibrator? or is all this just guess work and stuff that looks "best" through his eyes? From the links in his first post i didn't see anything about what instruments he used for these calibrations.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ClayPigeon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> is all this just guess work



No.


----------



## ClayPigeon

Yea my bad! i see kentech knows what he's doing now after reading through this for hours and hours i did most of the suggested tweaks! I like all the d/l charts and everything, real helpful. I just got a KDxbr970 and i tried to fix the overscan. Thing is when i lowered the parameters to be able to see the picture i in full i couldnt see the outer line on the right side even after messing with the banking levels, RBLK, etc. The only way i was able to get the whole picture inside and be able to see everything was to mess with the settings in the MID1-2 group such as DHPH, DHHP, DHHS etc. But i read a post on here saying DO not mess with these but it was the onyl way i was able to fix my overscan and everything is now perfect. BUT man what a pain in the arse it was doing this for all the picture modes!! I noticed some settings in MID 1 were global and had to leave them, but i was able to fine tune all the other resolutions using the settings in MID3 as they are independent from the others.


So i'm just wondering if this will mess anything up since ken said don't mess with those settings, it was the only way i was able to fix this problem.


----------



## ClayPigeon

Also you know that adjacent color diagram ken posted? well i d/led it to disc and noticed a few colors bleeding over. Not bleeding as in color too high, but like a shadow line of that color. I notice when i chnage the setting in mid5 "POP" to 19 from 20 it goes away, but those settings dont stick. So i'm wondering which of the sharpness enhancers is causing this. I pretty much have them all off! i don't think it can be a YC delay problem.


----------



## tarzan_nojane

Not sure is this is a good place to post this request -


The grandkids were here and were playing with the remote. Suddenly, no sound. I believe that there is a set of keystrokes that resulted in this behavior. But 3 & 4 year-olds can't tell you what they did so you can repeat it!


Muting button still toggles indicator ON/OFF though sound stays off (even headphone jacks are off). Volume indicator still changes, but no sound


This happened years ago when the TV came back after servicing. We took it back and they quickly got it out of this mode.


----------



## bassface

Try speakers On-Off


----------



## tarzan_nojane

Purchased a copy of the Service Manual covering this model as well as others and confirmed that ID0, ID1, ID2, ID3, and ID4 were properly configured. That alone was not the problem...


Closer inspection of the manual shows that there is a sound menu for KV-20S30, KV20V60, KV-21RS30C models ONLY. Here is the solution:

Enter Service Mode

Change ID2 from "3" to"11" (make this set think its a KV-20S30)

Write

Turn set Off


Now the menu appears. Turn speakers from OFF to ON. Shut down.

Enter Service Mode

Change ID2 from "11" back to "3"

Write

Turn set Off


Problem solved!!!


----------



## Wickerman1972




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tarzan_nojane* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Purchased a copy of the Service Manual covering this model as well as others and confirmed that ID0, ID1, ID2, ID3, and ID4 were properly configured. That alone was not the problem...
> 
> 
> Closer inspection of the manual shows that there is a sound menu for KV-20S30, KV20V60, KV-21RS30C models ONLY. Here is the solution:
> 
> Enter Service Mode
> 
> Change ID2 from "3" to"11" (make this set think its a KV-20S30)
> 
> Write
> 
> Turn set Off
> 
> 
> Now the menu appears. Turn speakers from OFF to ON. Shut down.
> 
> Enter Service Mode
> 
> Change ID2 from "11" back to "3"
> 
> Write
> 
> Turn set Off
> 
> 
> Problem solved!!!



Really? Could you please, please, please, please, please, please scan it and post it?


----------



## Wickerman1972

Oh, wait a minute. Looks like your not talking about the 970. Damn. For some reason I thought I'd clicked on the official 970 thread, lol.


----------



## Vega78

I'm sorry, there are so many questions floating around in this thread, but I'm borderline desperate. My HDMI and component inputs put out a beautiful sharp picture. However, my s-video looks very foggy and lacks immense detail. I discovered this on my Gamecube that the picture just didn't look right, and I hooked it back up to my 27 inch and it looked perfect. Obviously something is way out of adjustment. I already checked all the user modes, and sharpness was at 60. Even if I max sharpness out, the picture looks really bad. Does anyone know of an adjustment to get my s-video to an acceptable level?


----------



## Leonjr76

Hello


Again I would like to pose a question to someone that may be able to answer it. I have a problem with a light red background with red lines running from left to right the entire screen. The red lines follow the resolution meaning they are spaced about an inch apart at 480i/p and about a 1/4 inch apart at 1080i. If someone that has seen this before reply with an explanation or a fix it would be greatly appreciated. I have attached pictures for visual representation.


----------



## ClayPigeon

Do you see this when watching normal TV? Or just notice it with test patterns? I have the same thing on the bottom lower left of my set, only noticeable when viewing a test pattern pretty much tho. It's the horizontal convergence. I'm pretty sure the only way to fix it is with magnets, depending on the TV. messing with VCEN and VPIN tend to straighten out the lines and get rid of it tho, but i can't find a happy medium, cause too much adjusting and then i get the lines on the top half.


or did i misread your post and this is the only image you see when turning the set on? just a red screen with red lines?


----------



## midnite2

I have what I hope is a simple question. I have found that my 34XS955's component connection geometry is right on. The HDMI connection is low and to the right. I have not permanently changed anything but when messing with 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 I can correct the problem but that changes for every input. How can I adjust only the HDMI's geometry and are the adjustments different for each resolution with the HDMI connection? is it common for the component and hdmi connections to be off?

thanks


----------



## Leonjr76

Thanks ClayPigeon for the reply. A few pages back I posted a detailed explanation on the problem with no one replying. But here goes again. When TV is turned on with no video source to input 1-7 screen is complete black for a few seconds. Then slowly it turns a light red with the visible darker red lines as is represented in the picture. Each picture represents the entire screen of the TV. As it is left on longer the light red with red lines seem to lessen in intensity. But it does no go away completely. When the video source it turned on the problem is not seen unless there is a very dark scene or show playing. For example when watching Lost I can actually see the red lines from eight feet away, very annoying. What I am asking is this a correctable problem in the service menu, or am I screwed. I also own a xbr960 which does not have this problem. So I am pretty sure its a problem with the set.


Thanks in advance for any advice or help.


----------



## ClayPigeon

Midnite, thats strange. I thought HDMI inputs have seperate settings then everything else? If so make sure you are on the HDMI input channel when changing the settings, this way they only change for that input and not the componet, S-video etc. Yea tho, from what i understand HDMI can be way off from any other input.


----------



## ClayPigeon

Hmm leon. I have no clue







Does this only happen when turning the set on cold? like if you have it on for a while then quickly shut it off and then restart it again does it still do the same thing? My old sony wega would always start up red when the degaussing circuit kicked in. Maybe your degaussing coil in the set has gone bad and thats why thats happening. That would make sense if it only happens when the set is turned on "cold"


----------



## ClayPigeon

from your picture tho it really looks like the cause of the red lines is a misconvergence of the horizontal lines. Are they bowed like that? or is that just how you drew up the diagram? Still tho even if thats the case that doesn't explain the red background. Wish i could help but i really have no idea. What set is it again?


----------



## Leonjr76

This is a Sony Wega kd-30xs955.

When I turn it off and back on the red background does not pronounce itself but I do see the horizontal lines.

Yes the lines are bowed approximately like that, they do not start all the way against the left side but they do go all the way into the right side.


This red background with red lines do not affect picture quality. This little 30" set has an outstanding 1080i picture from blueray movies. It also has as far as I can tell perfect geometry and the over scan is at only 5% or a little less. The only noticeable problem is in dark scenes I can make out the red horizontal lines. When at a 1080i resolution the amount of lines are double or triple the 480i/p amount.


Again thank you


----------



## ClayPigeon

yea, thats what i have too. I see red by the bottom of my screen where my set is out of whack. Thing is i don't notice it until i'm "looking" for it. But your problem seems to be going through the WHOLE set. I'm sure if you threw up a test pattern you'd be able to see and adjust it better. I'm guessing if you messed with ( not sure what it is on your set) VCEN- for top bottom bowing and VPIN- Top bottom bowing pincushion you'd be able to straighten the lines out alot more and get rid of those red lines. Just a guess tho! since when on my set if i cranked either one of those to a crazy bowing degree i would see red under all the scan lines. You comfortable with the service menu and trying anything out? BTW you don't have avia do you? not sure if your set has any built in test patterns you can use, but it probably does. If not you can always d/l a test pattern image off the PC and burn it to a disc. Do you have a digi cam so you can take a pic of the set while it's doing this?


----------



## Leonjr76

I have went into the SM with some of Kentech's tweaks. The bowing you are talking of, does that actually make the image on screen bow? Because the problem I have, I have absolutely no bowing of images. It is only the red lines which actually seem superimposed on perfectly straight images.


But if this is the problem then great it sounds like they could be adjusted. Now the red background is only slightly noticeable with a show playing.


I have DVE.


Thanks


----------



## ClayPigeon

I think it can be adjusted man. Check this out. i just went into my service menu and had a test image up and adjusted VCEN and VPIN so everything was bowed crazy and out of whack. Is this what yours looks likes? see how the red lines creeped in?


----------



## ClayPigeon

I got up really close to the set tho so ignore those bottom shadow lines/reflections. See the red lines ontop of each line?


----------



## Leonjr76

It is hard to see but yes I think that may be my problem. I also have a VPIN and VCEN adjustment. Do you know of a test pattern for me to input from DVE to adjust it to. Or should I just use a no input signal where I can clearly see the red lines. And adjust till I do not see them anymore.


----------



## ClayPigeon

Yea man sorry the pics came out so crappy but my cam sucks and i took them really fast, but you can see what i'm talking about. Hold up and i'll link you up to a 1080i test pattern i found that i been using.


----------



## ClayPigeon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Leonjr76* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It is hard to see but yes I think that may be my problem. I also have a VPIN and VCEN adjustment. Do you know of a test pattern for me to input from DVE to adjust it to. Or should I just use a no input signal where I can clearly see the red lines. And adjust till I do not see them anymore.



Oh wait i missed the you having DVE part! Not sure how they work compared to avia. I use Avia.,Well for 480p thats what i use since i'm using the regular xbox 360 dvd player. For other resolutions tho i use patterns i d/led off the internet or from here. Whats the DVE menus like? they have chapters labeled for like " geometry and convergence" any pattern with say white lines on a black background will work. You should be seeing the red lines coming through. let me know.


----------



## Leonjr76

No go, I tried and all that does is distort the already straight geometry. The red lines do move, but they seem to be a part of the display from the guns. It is hard to describe. If you can tell me how to take a picture with my digital camera I can try and post it.


Thanks


----------



## ClayPigeon

Damn then leon. I have no clue. I thought that would help. Is the set old? or have you moved it recently? a "VIOLENT" move? I'm sorry i couldn't help. Before giving up any hope tho see if anybody else posts who has had the same problem.


----------



## Leonjr76

I bought it earlier this year NIB. I was pretty lucky to find this set still in the box. As far as I know there has been no violent move.


I can live with what problem it has. But was hoping it could some how be taken care of. DVE does have a test pattern called anamorphic geometry that is a grid of white lines on black background with a circle in the middle and a smaller circle in each corner. On almost every test pattern with some black in it I can see the red lines, but on the anamorphic geometry I can not see them. Maybe that is because there are so many white lines and it makes seeing the red lines difficult. Either way if it can be fixed I will be happy if not I will still be happy and just live with it, as long as it does not get worse.


Thanks again

We tried


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Leonjr76* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ..... On almost every test pattern with some black in it I can see the red lines, but on the anamorphic geometry I can not see them. Maybe that is because there are so many white lines and it makes seeing the red lines difficult. Either way if it can be fixed I will be happy if not I will still be happy and just live with it, as long as it does not get worse.......



Do the red lines go away if you reduce brightness(black level)? Have you adjusted correct black levels? Are blacks actually inky black, or grey?


If you can't lower the brightness control so that blacks are black, then this *may* be a G2 adjustment issue. I have a HS510, a few generations older than the current sets. I recently had my D board replaced and after powering up the set, the tech stated that he was looking for red lines with no input to determine if the board needed adjusting. I don't have my service manual copies with me now but the G2 and focus pots are on the flyback transformer and I *believe* the G2 pot is the top one. The tech stated that the flyback is supposed to be preadjusted but sometimes needs adjusting after installation. You will need to remove the rear cover of your set to access the flyback transformer, which is in the rear right corner with a high voltage lead connecting to the picture tube anode. Dangerous voltages are present, so BE VERY CAREFUL if you attempt this adjustment. You will find that both pots have a glob of white paint that marks their pre-adjustment so you can always go back to close to the original setting. NEVER make large adjustments on the G2, a LOT can go wrong. If your not comfortable with all of this then stay out of the set. Please validate the correct pot before attempting.


Good Luck


----------



## Leonjr76

That sounds promising (G2 pot). It is something that I would have no problem attempting with the proper instructions. I bought an extended warranty with this set knowing that they are not made anymore. I may make a few calls to see if it is something the warranty would cover in house. I am not willing to let this set go to someone's shop and get beat on for god knows how long only to be told that sorry your TV is out of production we will have to replace it with a POS LCD or something comparable.


I think I have read about adjusting the G2 pot on this forum somewhere. But its been a while and I do not remember where I read it or even when. I will attempt a search to gain some education.


Thanks it's at least a direction.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Leonjr76* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...... I bought an extended warranty with this set knowing that they are not made anymore. I may make a few calls to see if it is something the warranty would cover in house.......



The warranty coverage is your best bet. This should certainly be an in-home fix.


----------



## Leonjr76

I tried all menu adjustments both extremes and the red lines do not change one bit.


----------



## ClayPigeon

LOL thats the dumbest thing i ever heard raouliii . YEA "blacklevel" is causing red lines on his set. Lets hide it with darkness like my tech did. Good fix! For people who don't care about quality on their TV set.


----------



## Leonjr76

Here is a picture of the problem. It is not a great picture but I believe it is good enough to see the problem.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ClayPigeon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> LOL thats the dumbest thing i ever heard raouliii . YEA "blacklevel" is causing red lines on his set. Lets hide it with darkness like my tech did. Good fix! For people who don't care about quality on their TV set.



If you care to read my post again you will find that I did not claim that blacklevel was causing red lines on his set. Electronics troubleshooting requires questions to be asked and answers to be given.










It is a *fact* that a misadjusted G2 can cause this symptom. The red glow/lines *can* be caused by applying a G2 overvoltage. If G2 ( or screen voltage) is set too high, it is sometimes difficult to establish an appropriate brightness (black level). Hence, my question to Leonjr76 as to his ability to set his brightness level.


ClayPigeon, I'm quite sure you've heard things MUCH dumber than anything in my posts.


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Leonjr76* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of the problem. It is not a great picture but I believe it is good enough to see the problem.



It looks like you are seeing retrace lines, indicating the G2 level for red may be too high. This could also show during a calibration, where black or the very low IRE levels, would be plus red and the rest of the grayscale is OK.


----------



## ClayPigeon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you care to read my post again you will find that I did not claim that blacklevel was causing red lines on his set. Electronics troubleshooting requires questions to be asked and answers to be given.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a *fact* that a misadjusted G2 can cause this symptom. The red glow/lines *can* be caused by applying a G2 overvoltage. If G2 ( or screen voltage) is set too high, it is sometimes difficult to establish an appropriate brightness (black level). Hence, my question to Leonjr76 as to his ability to set his brightness level.
> 
> 
> ClayPigeon, I'm quite sure you've heard things MUCH dumber than anything in my posts.



Sorry then! i was wrong. Didn't sound like a G2 problem tho from his posts.


----------



## ClayPigeon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Leonjr76* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of the problem. It is not a great picture but I believe it is good enough to see the problem.



wow tho yea that was way off from what i thought what was wrong! the pic helped! Sorry i couldn't help bro


----------



## Leonjr76

I am glad the picture helped.


GlenC is this problem fixable in my home.


If this is something that I cannot do (which is what it sounds like) I would like some advice.


1. Call in warranty repair.

If I call in warranty repair would it be in my best interest to give a detailed explanation of what the problem is to help the tech coming to hopefully fix the set.


2. ISF Calibration.

Is an ISF calibrator someone that could correct this while calibrating the set. I also have an XBR960 that I would like calibrated someday.


3. Self adjustment.

Is it even possible or a choice for me to do.


If anyone has any advice on how I should proceed it would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks in advance


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Leonjr76* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am glad the picture helped.
> 
> 
> GlenC is this problem fixable in my home.
> 
> 
> If this is something that I cannot do (which is what it sounds like) I would like some advice.
> 
> 
> 1. Call in warranty repair.
> 
> If I call in warranty repair would it be in my best interest to give a detailed explanation of what the problem is to help the tech coming to hopefully fix the set.
> 
> 
> 2. ISF Calibration.
> 
> Is an ISF calibrator someone that could correct this while calibrating the set. I also have an XBR960 that I would like calibrated someday.
> 
> 
> 3. Self adjustment.
> 
> Is it even possible or a choice for me to do.
> 
> 
> If anyone has any advice on how I should proceed it would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance



Warranty service is the first step, cheapest, if it is a repair issue. If it is adjustment of grayscale, calibration should work.


----------



## Leonjr76

I will attempt the warranty route first.


Thanks all


----------



## RandallA

I have a couple of questions on a KV-32HS420 TV 4:3 that I hope someone can answer.


When I watch HDTV using the HDMI input (Video 7) or Component input the picture is always 16:9 so I Zoom the picture to fill the screen. I do it for 16:9 and 4:3 content, it works for me. But what I'd like to know is that is if can set so it always display the FULL picture to fill the screen without having to do it everytime the TV is turned on.


I found a setting in the Service Menu: 2170P-4 26 IDSW=0 (0-7)

If I set it to 2, it displays the Full picture and this will do the trick but unfortunately this setting can't be saved (NS). Is there any other way to accomplish this?


Second question is regarding the Volume level on the HDMI input, it's way higher than the other inputs. Can I adjust the Volume level for the HDMI input only?


Thanks and yes I've searched for both questions but can't find a definitive answer.


----------



## RandallA

"When I watch HDTV using the HDMI input (Video 7) or Component input the picture is always 16:9 so I Zoom the picture to fill the screen. I do it for 16:9 and 4:3 content, it works for me. But what I'd like to know is that is if can set so it always display the FULL picture to fill the screen without having to do it everytime the TV is turned on."


Setting 2170D-3 JUMP set to 0 does the trick.


----------



## RandallA

/---------

______

______/

______/


One more question, I have Dish Network and everytime I go to the guide I see a couple of problems with the geometry. First one happens on the top left corner the guide kind of drops and the second one is on the bottom right corner, the lines in the guide kind of go up.


I tried to draw what I see in the guide above, it exagerates the problems but it shows what's going on.


What kind of adjustments does anyone recommends to fix the problem?


----------



## Leonjr76

Just a little update on my kd-30xs955 red line problem.


I was told by the TV repair man that it could be a shorted picture tube or a socket.


I just hope it can be fixed and returned as soon as possible.


Update! I called the repair shop about my TV and they have a fly back transformer on order. So much for the shorted picture tube or socket.


----------



## Bob Coxner

I would like to give a big *THANK YOU* to everyone who has posted on this thread!


I have a new KD34XBR970 that I've had for a few weeks. I have never attempted service menu adjustments in my life but there were some nagging geometry issues that I wanted to correct. Thanks to all the fantastic resources in this thread I was able to find and tweak HPOS, HSIZ, VPOS, VSIZ and NSCO. That took care of 90% of my issues. I still have some minor vertical bowing but I'll wait and do more research before tackling that one.


It is a huge thread, and can be complex in sections, but I encourage newcomers to read through the first section and download some of the service menu charts. It looks daunting but if I can do it, most anyone can.


Again, thanks to all the experts here!


----------



## nick-g

Does the 955 not have an OSDH control? According to the .pdf it should be under MID1, but it is not there on my TV.


----------



## Decharo

I have been a happy 960 owner for around six months, seeking guidance and a fix for a possible set up issue (since I received TV).

I do not appear to be utilizing my entire screen. If you look at the image there is a black (as night) bar around the entire picture, top and bottom seems to be about a half of an inch, less on the sides. Is this normal? Is this the raster thing I keep reading about?

If I could increase the picture size and reduce black ring that would be great.

I have performed minor geometry fixes in the Service Menu along with color fixes so I am not afraid of it, just need a layman's understanding of the fix before I start making changes.


Thanks in advance.


----------



## duwdu

So it's my lot to be stuck with a Service Menu test pattern. It arose after what I believe was a normal SM tweak for centering, using Input 6 (HDMI @ 1080i), writing, and powering off. When I switched back on, the pattern remained without any text (SM or otherwise) on the screen. The remote control also has become totally un-effective, so am currently unable to see or re-write/correct any codes. I have powered off/unplugged/waited/powered back on or otherwise retried going back into the SM numerous times - unsuccessfully. Each time it is the stuck pattern and nothing else that comes back on screen







.


I have done what I believe is extensive research regarding this problem on this and other threads but the problem seems to be a step beyond what I have come across as solutions so far. I will illustrate with the following three quotes:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> --- As discussed earlier on a few occasions, If you WRITE another setting elsewhere in SM when you have one of those patterns up, (this is an oddity I know), you will probably need to make sure your return QM/PATN value to ZERO(and WRITE the "0" value(no test pattern) before you exit SM, otherwise the test pattern you were working on will likely remain "stuck" on screen when you exit SM.......





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by daltonlanny
> 
> HELP ME! I went into the blue QM and QT info & test pattern section in the service menu and did some adjustments to the vertical and horizontal perimeters in D-1 and D-2 while on a test pattern.
> 
> I NOW CANNOT EXIT THIS SECTION!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize for not discussing this in my recent posting on the internal test patterns. Happened to me, too.
> 
> 
> If you WRITE your new settings while using a test pattern, you have also accidentally written that test pattern! That's incredibly stupid on Sony's part: PATN should have been a *temporary* setting, as are several other test parameters. But it isn't.
> 
> 
> As Nitewatchman said, the solution is to go into service mode, turn any pattern off, and WRITE that. So go to PATN, reduce its value to zero (which brings back the picture), and WRITE.
> 
> 
> By now you have also discovered that one should also turn down the audio while using the test patterns, preferably to zero!
Click to expand...


Then this (almost scary) one:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Update:
> 
> 
> Here's another "cautionary" tale involving a certian model of set+SM I recall from the late early mid 90's. This particluar set's Service Menu happend to have "VFREQ"(sets vertical scanning frequency) as it's FIRST SM item. It was also the case that, the "code" one needed to enter on the remote(or front panel set controls) was such that I believe it was very possible for a user to "accidently" enter SM without knowing it, and, perhaps thinking they were turning the vol down or switching channel(don't remember which), they could EASILY lower the VFREQ setting(which "stuck" immediately, you didn't have to do anything to "write" the new value) without knowing it - which would not only make it impossible to "see anything" on the screen, it would also cause the set to turn off after a few seconds. And the set would NOT work again, unless the EEPROM was reprogrammed or the EEPROM chip with the firmware on it was replaced, or perhaps a VARIAC was used to step down the A/C current to where you could enter the SM without the set turning off in a few seconds, and be able to "see" the value on the screen, and change it back to correct value.
> 
> 
> : end update



I also came by the following very short and independent thread, but it, too, ended without a solution applicable to my case:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=stuck+pattern 


I would be grateful for any and all help that will help me eliminate this stuck pattern and get back on track with my 970.


TIA.


duwdu


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *duwdu* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would be grateful for any and all help that will help me eliminate this stuck pattern and get back on track with my 970.



Perhaps you may need new batteries for remote+ you may want to See these 3 posts(as they involve someone having this problem with the same model of set you have) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post10240527 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post10241098 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post10241361


----------



## G-Bull

duwdu,


It sounds like you're saying that you can't get back into the service mode. If so, that's very strange - this would be the first I've heard of a TV that had previously entered service mode just fine, but now refuses to cooperate.


Make sure you're going step-by-step to get back into the service mode...


1) Turn OFF the TV


2) Make sure the remote control is set to control the TV (and not the cable box or DVD player or whatever) by pressing the "TV" function button on the remote


3) Point your remote toward the TV and enter the service mode by pressing these four keys, in order, relatively quickly (each key must be pressed within one second of the previous key):

- Display

- 5

- Volume UP

- Power


Your TV should then turn on in service mode, and you should be able to do as Nitewatchman has suggested, and navigate to the PATN parameter (within the QM menu) and set it to zero. Then "write" this new setting so the TV saves it to memory.


----------



## Nitewatchman

^yep ...


BTW, oddly enough, I've noticed that when batteries in the remote get to a certian *weakness*, *some* buttons/functions on the remote will still work (such as off/on, up/down channel, or the 1~9 buttons), but some will *not* ... (such as say the "screen mode" or the "." button if you're punching in"digital subchannel #'s), or "twin view button" or "display" button) ....


A few days ago, it started with just the "." button not working, so if I were to try to punch in say, "9.2", "9" was as far as I could get ... It had been long enough since I'd had this sort of thing happen before, I first thought perhaps contacts went bad in the remote+I would probably need another one ... Then, I noticed other buttons starting not to work (such as "screen mode") and tried new batteries and all was fine ....


On a previous occasion when this happened, I believe It was the "display" button I first noticed that had quit working until I replaced batteries ... One which we need to work of course to get into SM ...


----------



## duwdu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Perhaps you may need new batteries for remote+ you may want to See these 3 posts(as they involve someone having this problem with the same model of set you have) :
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post10240527
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post10241098
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post10241361



Perhaps my statement regarding the remote control is inaccurate. The remote actually does operate the TV, it is just not effective in the service menu mode. In any case, I changed out the batteries for a fresh pack and the issue remains.


Also, I previously read the messages you referenced. None seems to address this particular problem of the SM coming back without any text on it to chose from. Perhaps you could further direct me?


Thanks.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *duwdu* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, I previously read the messages you referenced. None seems to address this particular problem of the SM coming back without any text on it to chose from. Perhaps you could further direct me?



Keep in mind, The SM isn't "coming back" when you turn on the set normally, only the test pattern. So, There is/will be no text on it if you are OUTSIDE of SM+operating the set normally.


You have to enter SM so you can "see" the SM text, and move to QM/PATN and change/write the QM/PATN value to "0" (no test pattern).


As G-bull said, I've also never heard of a situation where you would not be able to re-enter SM and fix this, so, if it isn't a problem with your remote involving the capability to enter SM, afraid I can't be of any help there.


----------



## duwdu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> duwdu,
> 
> 
> It sounds like you're saying that you can't get back into the service mode. If so, that's very strange - this would be the first I've heard of a TV that had previously entered service mode just fine, but now refuses to cooperate.
> 
> 
> Make sure you're going step-by-step to get back into the service mode...
> 
> 
> 1) Turn OFF the TV
> 
> 
> 2) Make sure the remote control is set to control the TV (and not the cable box or DVD player or whatever) by pressing the "TV" function button on the remote
> 
> 
> 3) Point your remote toward the TV and enter the service mode by pressing these four keys, in order, relatively quickly (each key must be pressed within one second of the previous key):
> 
> - Display
> 
> - 5
> 
> - Volume UP
> 
> - Power
> 
> 
> Your TV should then turn on in service mode, and you should be able to do as Nitewatchman has suggested, and navigate to the PATN parameter (within the QM menu) and set it to zero. Then "write" this new setting so the TV saves it to memory.



G-Bull,


Am actually doing as you've enumerated, and have been doing it for about three weeks now, successfully. It appears I do get into the SM, but there are no menus in the service mode to chose from, it is as if the pattern has covered up the menus! Please see the third quote I made above, the one I describe as scary... the symptons seem to fit what I am experiencing.


Thanks for any further help.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *duwdu* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Please see the third quote I made above, the one I describe as scary... the symptons seem to fit what I am experiencing.



Oh no ... You wouldn't see a test pattern at all if something like THAT were happening ...



> Quote:
> It appears I do get into the SM, but there are no menus in the service mode to chose from, it is as if the pattern has covered up the menus!



Have never seen that happen either(the pattern covering up the SM menus), and don't know how you would know you were in SM if you couldn't see the menus ... Turning All the guns off (2170P1/RGBS=0) is the only thing I have come across which "turns off" the SM menus (and everything else! )


What happens if you are on an input Other than HDMI when you try to enter SM ? If you haven't tried it, maybe try that -- such as the RF input (ANT button), or an S-video/Composite video input (video 1~3) ... Then, maybe you could switch to HDMI input within SM+hopefully then still be able to see the menus in order to write QM/PATN To "0" ...


----------



## duwdu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Keep in mind, The SM isn't "coming back" when you turn on the set normally, only the test pattern. So, There is/will be no text on it if you are OUTSIDE of SM+operating the set normally.
> 
> 
> You have to enter SM so you can "see" the SM text, and move to QM/PATN and change/write the QM/PATN value to "0" (no test pattern).
> 
> 
> As G-bull said, I've also never heard of a situation where you would not be able to re-enter SM and fix this, so, if it isn't a problem with your remote involving the capability to enter SM, afraid I can't be of any help there.



Thanks Nite, am not just turning on the TV normally, am entering the SM from the standby state as G-Bull has enumerated, and have been successful before this problem started. Thanks anyways. I'll probably have to try another remote, may be indeed some of the buttons have suddenly gone bunkers, it's just that this set is so brand new...


duwdu


----------



## duwdu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh no ... You wouldn't see a test pattern at all if something like THAT were happening ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have never seen that happen either(the pattern covering up the SM menus), and don't know how you would know you were in SM if you couldn't see the menus ... Turning All the guns off (2170P1/RGBS=0) is the only thing I have come across which "turns off" the SM menus (and everything else! )
> 
> 
> What happens if you are on an input Other than HDMI when you try to enter SM ? If you haven't tried it, maybe try that -- such as the RF input (ANT button), or an S-video/Composite video input (video 1~3) ... Then, maybe you could switch to HDMI input within SM+hopefully then still be able to see the menus in order to write QM/PATN To "0" ...



You are da bomb Nite! I selected another input - just pressed the TV/Video button once after turning on the TV normally, as I had previously disabled all but the HDMI and one other input, switched off, then re-entered the SM - and Viola! my SM UI is back.


You've saved me a lot of aggravation Nitewatchman (and G-Bull). Many many thanks to you and the community.


duwdu


----------



## Shifty_Effect

I was tweaking my picture using the service menu and decided to change back all of it to default values. Then i "WRITE" the UCP value back to 33 and doing so changed my screen to what looks similar to a checkers board from eye view, full size of the screen and has a black background. I can't do anything else with my remote other than going into the service menu and changing values of codes (which im definetly never touching again). What did i do? How do i get out of this! All i wanted to do was fix some geometry issues!


BTW i was using my DVE disc at the time and i noticed in the service menu its changed from 480i to 1080i.


----------



## bassface

It has taken me a few weeks, but I have finally read all 85 pages and discovered many helpful hints to fine tune my XBR970. I've been able to adjust the overscan down to about 4%, fixed a horrendous tilt problem, and the picture geometry is now pretty darn good...THANK YOU to everyone here who contributed expert advice.


However one thing I have not been able to fix is a vertical position difference between my DVD player (input #4, component cables, 480p) and my satellite receiver (input #5,component cables, 1080i).


If I center the image (up and down) from the DVD player the broadcast TV image does not go quite to the top of the screen. Is there a way to adjust the vertical position of these inputs independently?


----------



## jpl3447




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bassface* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It has taken me a few weeks, but I have finally read all 85 pages and discovered many helpful hints to fine tune my XBR970. I've been able to adjust the overscan down to about 4%, fixed a horrendous tilt problem, and the picture geometry is now pretty darn good...THANK YOU to everyone here who contributed expert advice.
> 
> 
> However one thing I have not been able to fix is a vertical position difference between my DVD player (input #4, component cables, 480p) and my satellite receiver (input #5,component cables, 1080i).
> 
> 
> If I center the image (up and down) from the DVD player the broadcast TV image does not go quite to the top of the screen. Is there a way to adjust the vertical position of these inputs independently?




Can you disconnect the DVD player and insert the satellite there, to see if the shift still occurs? Or the other way around? That way you can rule out a signal discrepancy.


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bassface* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> However one thing I have not been able to fix is a vertical position difference between my DVD player (input #4, component cables, 480p) and my satellite receiver (input #5,component cables, 1080i).
> 
> 
> If I center the image (up and down) from the DVD player the broadcast TV image does not go quite to the top of the screen. Is there a way to adjust the vertical position of these inputs independently?



I think DHVP within MID2 will do what you're trying to do, but you'll have to try it out to be sure. It has been a while since I messed around in the SM... I don't recall whether input4 and input5 can be adjusted independently, or if it adjusts both of these "component video" inputs at the same time. I do believe, however, that it treats each resolution independently, so the setting for 480p can be adjusted separately from 1080i...


----------



## bassface

Well I tried adjusting the vertical position with DHVP (in MID 2), but that moves the image up or down within the raster. It's the raster which does not reach the top of the CRT. The same thing happens when I try to fix this using SCRL or ASPT.


The only way I have found to make the raster meet the top of the picture tube is to adjust Vertical Correction in the User Menu to +4 or +5 when watching the satellite dish, then resetting Vertical Correction to 0 when watching DVD's.


----------



## Jetra Vard

This is my first post in this forum. I've been able to get a great picture from all the tips in this thread on my 34hs420 but I feel I've just dodged a bullet.


I had my set turned on and left the room for about 40 minutes. A thunderstorm caused the power to go off for about 5 seconds. When I returned to my set I noticed that colors were distorted. Normally green text was blue and there was a halo of green and pink tints surrounded the outer edges of the screen.


Searching the net I attributed this to overheating & warping of the aperture grill. Hopefully not too late I realized I should turn the set off to let the grill cool down. Luckily when I turned it back on a few minutes later the colors were back to normal.


What can I do to prevent permanent damage to the grill? Did the power suddenly turning off and then coming back on abruptly cause the set to send to much current from the electron beam and overheat the grill? Or is there a service menu contrast/white level adjustment that is possibly set too high? Thanks.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jetra Vard* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I had my set turned on and left the room for about 40 minutes. A thunderstorm caused the power to go off for about 5 seconds. When I returned to my set I noticed that colors were distorted. Normally green text was blue and there was a halo of green and pink tints surrounded the outer edges of the screen.....



Is it possible that the power bump was multiple, quick power fluctuations? If so, then its very possible that what you initially saw was an interupted cycling of the degaussing circuit. Incomplete degaussing of crts can create the symptoms you describe. The degaussing circuit operation is the surging sound heard at initial powerup.


BTW, The degaussing circuit heats up when it cycles on, therefore it has a cool down period of 5 to 10 minutes before it will cycle again.


----------



## Jetra Vard

Thanks Raouliii. I see you've helped others with their magnetic problems.


I don't think there was a rapid power cycling. The lights went off once for a very short time and then came back on. This never happened to me during a storm before but maybe a nearby lightning strike created an emp and magnetized the screen. I'm guessing the set was still "on" even though the power was out so it didn't degauss when the power came back on a few seconds later....if degaussing only occurs when you manually power up that is. I'm just guessing because I know very little about the technical side of this.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *duwdu* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks Nite, am not just turning on the TV normally, am entering the SM from the standby state as G-Bull has enumerated, and have been successful before this problem started. Thanks anyways. I'll probably have to try another remote, may be indeed some of the buttons have suddenly gone bunkers, it's just that this set is so brand new...
> 
> 
> duwdu




Another thing to be aware of is the "Device" the remote is trying to send the commands to (ie. DVD, ANT, CABLE or TV). You will know by looking at the remote when you press the button, a red light will flash rapidly above the device it is sending commands for. (Sorry for two sentences in a row ending with prepositions!







)


This can be a simple, yet confouding detail to note while mucking about in the SM.


Cheers,


Bryan


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Shifty_Effect* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was tweaking my picture using the service menu and decided to change back all of it to default values. Then i "WRITE" the UCP value back to 33 and doing so changed my screen to what looks similar to a checkers board from eye view, full size of the screen and has a black background. I can't do anything else with my remote other than going into the service menu and changing values of codes (which im definetly never touching again). What did i do? How do i get out of this! All i wanted to do was fix some geometry issues!
> 
> 
> BTW i was using my DVE disc at the time and i noticed in the service menu its changed from 480i to 1080i.




Sounds like the classic case of an internal pattern being saved before exit.


Indulge me and enter the SM and page back (5 button) until you reach the group labled "QM" the page forward within the group (1 button) until you reach the PATN group then lower the value (6 button) until it reads zero.


Hopefully, your picture should have returned. If it has, SAVE (MUTE then ENTER)!


Let us know if this helps.....


Bryan


----------



## apoll134




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *John K.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My Sony KDF-60XS955 took a crap today. all i can say is that the red stanby led flahes 6 times, and repeats itself. any help out there on what this may mean




John my tv did same thing. tech came in replaced the fuse in back. its a heat fuse gets too hot it burns out. It is on a wire that is about 2 ft long 1 white whire 1 gray wire. has red tape taping them together last 8 to 10 inches is black with a small black piece of plastic on the end . that is the fuse. on the wire(black part of wire) it says e30522 hi-tube-n 105c 300v vw-1 -f- hrakawa-l. its aplug in wire did not see where it plugs in. at same time they blew dust out of tv that can cause it to overheat. was also told the lamp when it burns out will do same thing. the lamp is an easy replacement. (SONY will replace within first yr) on the front of the tv, at the botttom where it says HDTV that piece of plastic pops off. lamp is behind that allen screw on left side has to be removed. new bulb comes with an allen wrench. new bulbs online for about $160


the fuse doesnt seem that hard to replace take back lower plastic of tv off look for 1 gray wire and white wire that has 3 pieces of red tape on it and the last 8 to 10 inces is black with the little black square plastic piece on the end (small) about 1/4 inch square.



hope this helps


----------



## Psythik

This question may have been answered before, but it would take me forever to dig through 85 pages of text to find it...


Anyhow, when watching a 4:3 program in normal aspect mode, the vertical gray bars on each side of the picture cut off a little more than I would have like them to (the picture looks more like a 5:4 image rather than 4:3). Is there a parameter in the SM that allows me to either adjust the size of the grey bars, or remove them completely?


Thanks.


----------



## tpfaz

Is there a list of the service menu items that can be adjusted for the KDL46XBR2? I can see the menu items, but I can't decifer what they mean.


I'd like to adjust the vertical and horizontal size of the display a couple of pixels, in order to remove some junk at the top of the display when in "full pixel" mode. I like full pixel mode better than normal mode, because it shows quite a bit more of the actual frame on all sides.


----------



## au revoir

That model does not sound like a CRT. Since this is the CRT forum, you might have better luck posting in the forum for your particular TV type.


----------



## tpfaz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *au revoir* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That model does not sound like a CRT. Since this is the CRT forum, you might have better luck posting in the forum for your particular TV type.



Whoops! I saw "Service Codes" in the forum title, but didn't see the CRT Displays. I'll look for something in the LCD forums. Thanks.


----------



## bclare

Hi


I after some help with my Sony 32" running 720p from a HTPC.


I have used the service menu in the past to correct geometry and color decoding with success.


However the current problem has occurred after moving the TV to a new house. So the TV is now in a different orientation and I can see some geometry flaws due to the earth's magnetic field.


The problem that I don't know how to fix is a flickering of the image from left to right. The image flickers back and forth in the horizontal direction, and is worse in the top left and bottom right corners. At the seating position the horizontal flickering causes a flickering of intensity in the 2 corners.


It only does this in 60Hz and not in 50Hz mode.


Has anyone seen this problem before and have a potential solution?


Brad


----------



## au revoir

Does this occur on all inputs?


What about when you use the TV's tuner?


How are you switching from 60hz to 50hz? From your PC?


Hopefully this interference is coming from your video source rather than the TV itself. Or maybe there is some electrical equipment nearby causing the problem. Or the electrical power in the new location is unstable.


Do you have a good power strip for protection against power surges?


Maybe someone else has some better ideas, but that's about all I can come up with ATM.


----------



## WJonathan

There is a guy on Ebay selling PDF files of the 970 service manual for $12. I bought one and it seems to be the real deal. Most of the manual is devoted to diassembly and physical testing and repair, but there is a nice section on the service menu. To me it was well worth $12. Just search "kd 34xbr970" and see Store results.


----------



## bclare




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *au revoir* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does this occur on all inputs
> 
> 
> What about when you use the TV's tuner?
> 
> 
> How are you switching from 60hz to 50hz? From your PC?
> 
> 
> Hopefully this interference is coming from your video source rather than the TV itself. Or maybe there is some electrical equipment nearby causing the problem. Or the electrical power in the new location is unstable.
> 
> 
> Do you have a good power strip for protection against power surges?
> 
> 
> Maybe someone else has some better ideas, but that's about all I can come up with ATM.




Thanks for the reply.

I only use the vga input, but can check the RF input.

It does occur on 60Hz 720p and 30Hz 1080i, but not 50Hz 720p or 25Hz 1080i from the PC.

It's possible that the power is not great, but I am using a belkin surge protector power board.

I would've thought that the most likely problem is something that is common to the 60Hz 720p and 30Hz 1080i, modes on the TV. Hence there might be something in the service menu that can be changed


----------



## NextGen

Did anyone in this thread ever fully explain the DCTR (Dynamic Picture)? I recall a post or two about it by Kentech, but I don't think anyone fully explained the proper *middle* settings for DCTR. APED, and DSBO. I know that BLK? holds the different settings for these values, but I'd really like to know the proper starting point.


And help?


----------



## Mark_Likes_Games

Quick questions:


KD-30XS955. Service menu.


I got in there and got familiar with it and exited without saving any changes. I will gain more experience before I save anything.


1- Is the only way to leave the service menu to turn off the TV?


2- If I make some changes to parameters and NEVER WRITE them to memory, what does the command [8] then [enter] do? Does this reset even things I didn't adjust to some other default values? Or does this only return anything I might have changed to the last memorized values?


Sorry if this seems basic. I hit many of the links and did quick search, but couldn't find this. Also in the post "02 - Navigating Service Menu" it says press - Enter to reset settings but this resulted in a message something like "feature not available" (I don't quite remember).


Thanks for the help. I'm confident that with a bit more research I can improve a slight convergence issue and some overscan. Nothing major. Thanks!


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark_Likes_Games* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1- Is the only way to leave the service menu to turn off the TV?



Yes, at least that I'm aware of.



> Quote:
> 2- If I make some changes to parameters and NEVER WRITE them to memory, what does the command [8] then [enter] do?



I don't know, nor do I know why you would press [8] then enter, but then again it's been quite some time since I've worked in the Sony's SM ...


I've only used the 1+3, 2+5 and 3+6 number keys when working in SM. 7~9 keys were "off limits" for my fingers


.... From KenTech's "02-navigating Service mode" post :



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CAUTION: AVOID keys 7 and 9, as they are part of a key-sequence that can reset all of the deflection or image-decoding settings back to a "factory-newborn" state. If you think you've hit any key by accident, STOP. In a few seconds it will revert back to SERVICE mode, as you'll see at the right side of the screen. All dangerous key-sequences are combinations of *three* keys, by the way.





> Quote:
> Does this reset even things I didn't adjust to some other default values?



The key combination that does that is the one Ken Mentions as quoted above. *Don't do it* . Going from others who did make that mistake(after many warnings here cautioning them NOT to do it), The "other default values" are not the defaults as they were "adjusted" at the factory, instead they are likely some set of useless(except perhaps for those at the factory starting on every set with the "same" set of values to start with) defaults present BEFORE any factory adjustments were made.



> Quote:
> Also in the post "02 - Navigating Service Menu" it says press - Enter to reset settings but this resulted in a message something like "feature not available" (I don't quite remember).



FWIW, I think I may have tried that once+ I think it may worked on my XBR960, but other than testing it, I never used it as I preferred, basically, not giving myself that "option", although on occasion for testing some things out(w/o writing any values) I did use the power cycling option to clear my "new" values(often on those occasions I wanted to power back up outside of SM anyway) ..... And instead, was sure to be careful enough to log everything as necessary and it was easy enough to change values back if I had already written them+ended up wanting to use something different or the "factory adjusted" default values ...


-----


Hope some of that helps ....



> Quote:
> Sorry if this seems basic.



Not at all.


----------



## Mark_Likes_Games

Jeff,


Thanks man - glad to see you're still enjoying being a source of help on this!


I got this from the notes at the bottom of the 34XBR910 spreadsheet: "Restore Factory Defaults = [8] - [ENTER]". So that's why I was asking about that.


Don't worry, I have NO intention of resetting to the "newborn" state with the 7 and 9 buttons - I *WON'T* do that!


----------



## Nitewatchman

^ No problem Mark -- I probably won't be too active on this thread in future as I am starting to get "rusty" on this stuff, as it has been quite a while since I've worked with any of it! I do enjoy looking at some fine looking video on the set, however+appreciating the info from this thread which helped me to get it looking like that!


Also, although I have some important stuff such as the XBR960 SM codes pages and the geometry+other pages from Service manual, as well as my notes/files on my sets factory default settings+my changes as well as important test patterns+info from this thread(Including various charts+posts from Ken), easily accessable some of the other stuff I had looked at but really didn't use has gotten archived onto DVD/CD's, and in some cases it would take quite a bit of searching to dig any of it up ....


Jeff


----------



## NextGen

Not really sure if this is adding to the thread much or not, but I thought I'd talk about the ENHA settings that are on my 34xs955 and how they have helped me achieve a better focus and sharpness of my picture without having to do the manual focus adjustment.

ENHA
*HSHP* - settings are from 0 - 255 and I've set mine at 0 since I'm not entirely sure what this setting does. It was set at 50 from the factory.

*HSFO* - Seems to be a focus offest parameter. I haven't really had to time to test out some theories I have for this setting, but I do know that the settings are from 0 - 15 (blurred to focused) and 15 really helped my focus tremendously. However, I didn't find the setting until after I had done a dynamic focus adjustment, so it is entirely possible that this code could be used in conjunction with a dynamic focus to get even more precise results. For instance, you could set HSFO to 7 and then do a focus adjustment, then readjust HSFO to your liking.

*HPOR* - No idea what it does, but 0 seems to be off which is where I have it at.

*HLTL* - This one, combined with *HLTM* appear to be either a focus shift? or a parameter that can be used to center any doubling of lines. Excuse my terminology, but to give an example of how this worked for me...


I always saw double lines, or a faint shadow from everything that I couldn't get rid of. It was easy to spot with dark text on a white background. All of the letters had this astigmatism to them. (This may have been caused by some sharpness offsets I used in my earlier adjustments for this set) Anyway, to make a long story short, I was able to try different combinations of HLTL and HLTM until I removed the doubling of lines. HLTL is from 0 - 3 and HLTM is either 0 or 1. My settings ended up at HLTL 3 and HLTM 0.


With my new settings for this set, it's harder to see what HLTL and HLTM do. Maybe Kentech or someone can explain it, but when HLTL is set to 3 and I switch HLTM to 1 I can see any sharpness pattern I have up change from very white lines to very dark lines. It almost resembles turning the sharpness down on the user menu, but I think it is something more than that. I'm just not sure, but I'll keep experimenting.

*HAPL* - Seems to work like a sub picture level of some kind. 0 is off which is where I have it set for now.

*HAPA* - Not really sure what this does, maybe it's an Amplitude for one or some of the other ENHA settings. I have set it at 0.

*HCTL* - unsure, so I set it at 0

*HCTM* - unsure, so I set it at 0 as well.


----------



## Mark_Likes_Games

Well, I'm happy to report that by using the service menu (D-CONV) I was able to tweak out some annoying convergence on the left side of my newly acquired 30XS955. It's not perfect, but significantly better.


I also had a go at trying to reduce the overscan. My results were mixed. I was totally able to optimize it for an Xbox set to 16:9 mode. (I compared it to my projector at 0% overscan - very close.) However, that resulted in widescreen output from a PS2 being too small with the sides of the image itself visible. So I had to compromise and increase the HSIZ and VSIZ again slightly so both would be OK.


I expect I'll have to adjust this again when I finally hook up an Xbox 360 to the set. I've heard that I might have to use the MID3 group to adjust 1080 input. (By the way, is there no way to see what the input signal format is other than being in the service menu?)


I was really glad I could adjust out that convergence error. All this is a bit more inconsistent and finicky than my 1280x720 projector, but hey this is about as good as it can get on a CRT (TV) as I understand it, so I can "put up" with small issues.


One thing I'm worried about is whether or not I have maintained a correct aspect after playing with HSIZ and VSIZ - that is, I hope circles are still truly circular! It looks fine, but I haven't measured it yet. Part of the problem is that the DVD playback from PS2 is weird. I put the THX optomizer in there from a movie and could not get the circle in the widescreen check to be circular. For some reason it was still letterboxing in my 16:9 screen - lame. Game material does not look stretched or squished (I didn't try the actual movie).


One thing I noticed last night is when I changed a PS2 game to run progressive (there are a few) the image shifted to the right so now I have a small gap of black on the left side...huh? (I was not in the service menu - no other changes than going from 480i to 480p.) This did bug me - any ideas?


Well, I'm not intending to tweak forever (addicting as it is) but sometimes I just don't get why the image is so inconsistent across inputs/sources/formats. (All the above is on component connections via inputs 5 and 6.)


I labeled PS2 input 5 "Beta" just to give Sony props (and because, yes, I actually was a Beta user...)


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark_Likes_Games* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I labeled PS2 input 5 "Beta" just to give Sony props (and because, yes, I actually was a Beta user...)



Don't be embarrassed. You should be proud!


I'm STILL using an HFR-900 Super-Beta (vintage 1984, and still working perfectly) as my "D* composite pass-through" for one of my SD TV's. It doesn't have S-video, but neither does that TV... just composite.


And I STILL use an EDV-9500 ED-Beta (vintage 1989) as my "D* S-video pass-through" for another SD TV, and an EDV-7500 (vintage 1990) in a similar use for watching D* via S-video on my PC (which has an ATI TV Wonder 650 PCI TV card, also supporting OTA via built-in ATSC tuner and amplified indoor antenna).


All of these Sony Beta machines are still working flawlessly, both electronically and mechanically. I don't use them for recording any longer but definitely still use them for the occasional playback of Super-Beta and ED-Beta recordings made many many years ago (and which still have not yet disintegrated into dust, but still play perfectly). For actual recording of SD from D* I have a Hughes E45 receiver and Hughes HDR-205 D-VHS VCR at each TV node. This gives me digitally perfect recordings and playback from D*, which is why I no longer use analog VCR's to record.


I do have JVC S-VHS VCR's (9400U and 9800U) also available on these same SD TV's and PC, so I can watch anything I want on any TV. And I have JVC D-VHS VCR's (40K and DT100U) for offloading HD content to D-VHS tape from my DCH3416 from TWC. If I'm going to be away from home for several weeks, I'll use the JVC D-VHS VCR's in LS3 mode to record SD from D*. That gives 21 hours of better-than-Svideo quality LS3 recording on a DF420 tape (which would provide 7 hours of D-VHS recording from D* on my HDR-205 machines).


So yes, I'm a Beta man too. And I even have a second "spare" EDV-9500 and EDV-7500 that are simply sitting on a shelf, in case I ever need parts (since you can't get them any longer), along with six brand new still-in-wrapper never opened ED-Beta blank tapes... maybe for some possible future use someday.


But JVC has made giant progress in the quality of their S-VHS machines over the past 10 years (although I've stopped buying them), and now with their HD D-VHS machines (which have super-fabulous S-VHS picture quality as well). So I now do any VCR recording on JVC machines, either in S-VHS or D-VHS.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark_Likes_Games* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> One thing I noticed last night is when I changed a PS2 game to run progressive (there are a few) the image shifted to the right so now I have a small gap of black on the left side...huh? (I was not in the service menu - no other changes than going from 480i to 480p.) This did bug me - any ideas?



Try adjusting your MID2 settings as a last resort, that is what I ended up doing on my 34xs955.


----------



## NextGen

I've finally accomplished what I thought would be impossible with my 34xs955. I made it look very similar to my 24"FW900 computer monitor. Took me forever and a day to get here, but now that I'm here I'll never go back to a downgrade in technology. I truly hope SED gets here soon or my tubes last forever.


These are my final~ settings for the 34xs955 HDMI input. I only use this input because that is what my Pio 91 connects to, and I like having the HDMI conversion since it forces my 480i connections to 480p with the proper 4:3 ratio with black bars, or 16:9. Most of my settings came from reading, and seeing first hand, what some of the service codes do to the image, and other settings came from the 34xs955 service manual. I tried to eliminate any instance of video source alteration to get as true and clean a signal as possible.


The key here is to get the MID1 codes right, then adjust the MID2 codes. If you have either group too far off the focus and resolution is very far off and the *Sharpness = Min* will not work. The ENHA settings are also key here too. Combining all of these correctly will allow you to keep the sharpness slider set to Min or off.


I don't like to add sharpness, personally, for three important reasons.

1. It makes jagged lines stand out more.

2. It alters the source material. (My FW900 computer monitor doesn't even have a sharpness slider on it.)

3. It is a bad compensator for focus.


I've attached a text file with many of the codes I use for my TV.

I will be uploading some images later to show how great this set looks, especially for video games.

*Please keep in mind that these settings are for those of us that normally play video games on this TV.* These settings are probably *not* optimal for low to medium quality broadcast material.

 

34xs955_8_28_07.txt 2.3876953125k . file


----------



## ClayPigeon

Nextgen, good to see you have your TV where you want it! I'm just curious as to what you mean by getting the "mid 1" settings right? From what i heard ( on my TV) the mid 1 settings shouldn't be tinkered with at all ? Mid 2 i'm not as sure about. When i put a pattern up and mess with some of the mid settings on my set, you can see that some adjusting actually effects the quality of the lines when using a test pattern. I haven't noticed these problems with setting most of the mid 2 settings like "DHHP,DHVP" But most of the other ones like in mid 1 do something to the overall picture quality ( only noticeable when viewing a static test image with white lines) i think i read in this topic that there is actually some connection between some of those settings that have to be kept the way they are. (they interact and if one is off, they are all off)


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ClayPigeon* /forum/post/11440503
> 
> 
> Nextgen, good to see you have your TV where you want it! I'm just curious as to what you mean by getting the "mid 1" settings right? From what i heard ( on my TV) the mid 1 settings shouldn't be tinkered with at all ? Mid 2 i'm not as sure about. When i put a pattern up and mess with some of the mid settings on my set, you can see that some adjusting actually effects the quality of the lines when using a test pattern. I haven't noticed these problems with setting most of the mid 2 settings like "DHHP,DHVP" But most of the other ones like in mid 1 do something to the overall picture quality ( only noticeable when viewing a static test image with white lines) i think i read in this topic that there is actually some connection between some of those settings that have to be kept the way they are. (they interact and if one is off, they are all off)



You right. I have left all my MID1 settings exactly as they are printed in the service manual. However, most of my MID2 settings for various display modes and resolutions had to be changed to get things like overscan, pixel cropping, vertical and horizontal centering and sizing correct. This does indeed cause some of the sharpness patterns to act strange, but _I think_ by changing the DYSS value in the MID1 group of codes either corrects or compensates for the MID2 changes. Or maybe, based on your post, I just have something that should be on turned off or vice versa and I simply "think" I've got the right settings for my set. I'm not sure what DYSS stands for, but the factory default setting is 1, but if I change it to either 0 or 2 my sharpness patterns seem correct to my eye, and my eye is the only real measuring equipment I have been using.


*edit*

Just went back to double check everything, and based on the test patterns I'm using, movies I've watched parts of, and games I've tested out, changing the MID2 group of codes appears to be perfectly fine after adjusting the MID1 DYSS values. Here is a shot I took with my digital camera, it isn't the best quality as I'm not very skilled at photographing a tv.


----------



## fivestarav

After reading and re-reading the posts in this thread, I'm about to "grow a pair" and go into the service menu. But before I do, can someone briefly explain to this SM newbie when to use a test pattern from a DVD (my Avia disc), and when to use the test pattern generated from the tv itself. (I have an XBR970.) I assume the pattern generated from the tv would be best suited for global adjustments only, yes? I dunno. Thanks in advance.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fivestarav* /forum/post/11464081
> 
> 
> After reading and re-reading the posts in this thread, I'm about to "grow a pair" and go into the service menu. But before I do, can someone briefly explain to this SM newbie when to use a test pattern from a DVD (my Avia disc), and when to use the test pattern generated from the tv itself. (I have an XBR970.) I assume the pattern generated from the tv would be best suited for global adjustments only, yes? I dunno. Thanks in advance.



I would assume the one from the TV itself will give you a more true representation to work with and it should work for all inputs and resolutions. However, I'm not sure and just taking a guess here, I would assume that if parts of your geometry, overscan, etc are out of whack then the TV's patterns will also be off, so it might be a good idea to start with a DVD. If your DVD player supports upscaling and can read from some type of memory stick you should be all set. Just write down EVERYTHING before you start, that's the key to the whole thing.


Since I'm only concerned with HDMI, I just used my PS3 and upscaled and/or double scaled my AVIA and DVE disks 99% of the time.


----------



## britanico

Hi Sony CRT´s fans

I found a site where you can download the SERVICE MANUAL FOR FREE of 30/34/36xs955 and 34xbr960(all with DA-4 chassis):go to www.schematicsforfree.com and 1)click on "Click here to see the files" in blue big letters 2) click on "Sony" 3)click on "Video" 4)click on "KD34XBR960" or "KD34XS955".It´s a Zip file.


----------



## duwdu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *britanico* /forum/post/11557027
> 
> 
> Hi Sony CRT´s fans
> 
> I found a site where you can download the SERVICE MANUAL FOR FREE of 30/34/36xs955 and 34xbr960(all with DA-4 chassis):go to www.schematicsforfree.com and 1)click on "Click here to see the files" in blue big letters 2) click on "Sony" 3)click on "Video" 4)click on "KD34XBR960" or "KD34XS955".It´s a Zip file.



Huge thanks to you britanico for this pointer.


duwdu


----------



## bigbluecheese

I'm having a problem with underscan (I think this is what it is) on the top portion of the picture.


Everything else is more or less centered but the top is "cut off" Even if I drag the picture all the way down, part of the top is cut off.


Anyone know what service setting I'm suppose to change?


----------



## WJonathan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbluecheese* /forum/post/11582180
> 
> 
> I'm having a problem with underscan (I think this is what it is) on the top portion of the picture.
> 
> 
> Everything else is more or less centered but the top is "cut off" Even if I drag the picture all the way down, part of the top is cut off.
> 
> 
> Anyone know what service setting I'm suppose to change?



I dealt with this over the weekend with my xbr970.


Go to the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 groups. Decrease HSIZ and VSIZ until you can see the image borders. Then VPOS and HPOS to center the image, then resize as desired.


If you're like me though you'll notice pincushioning and bowing that you'll want to massage before resizing.


----------



## bigbluecheese

No, all those settings are done. What I'm saying is that the top is underscanned BUT the TV is cutting off the picture.


Like the TV is blacking out the top of the image. I know that there is a setting that expands the bottom of the image by REVEALING more of the image, but can't seem to find a similar option for the top of the picture.


----------



## hakujin.

Has anyone had success getting SD sources on a 36XS955(or a 960, etc) to look like they do on a SD native TV?


I've read every page of this thread and signifigantly improved the image of SD & HD material, but I can't seem to get the SD picture to look like it does on my 24" SD Trinitron CRT. The picture itself is very similar, but looks rather "flat". It's missing something I can't seem to quantify. (SYSM = 3, VM to 4, MID5 to KenTech recommended settings, DRC set to interlaced, 480i coming in via component cables)


I'm very interested if people are having success replicating that true SD CRT picture on this set. Mine is close, but every time I do an A/B comparison the HD CRT loses hands down to the SD set. Thanks in advance for any help.


----------



## devilchicken




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/11320353
> 
> 
> Try adjusting your MID2 settings as a last resort, that is what I ended up doing on my 34xs955.



I have a somewhat similar problem, when playing a ps2 game on 480i on full mode, theres some black space on the 4 sides of the screen, while this is annoying I can live with it because the image from my cable box fills the screen completely and I dont want to mess with it.


However, when i switch to 480p on (on both component inputs and hdmi) the image is way too high on the screen, as if the vpos setting was off by a few values.

I can fix this with the mid2 DHVP settings but I'm a bit averse to using it from all the warnings I've read before. I guess this is more of a "should I, or should I not?" post, lol.


Thanks for all the help in this thread, I've learned lots from it and fixed most of my overscan and geometry problems.


----------



## fivestarav




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *devilchicken* /forum/post/11694561
> 
> 
> I can fix this with the mid2 DHVP settings but I'm a bit averse to using it from all the warnings I've read before.



Uh oh. What warnings have you read? I just messed with DHHS and DHHP in MID2 to fix my XBox and Wii underscan issues. Did I do something wrong? ( I have an XBR970).


----------



## HDTVblues3

Evening, all.


I've been sitting here trying to tweak the 1080i HDMI input using my PS3, which I intended to transfer and test the results in the component part of the TV where my X360 is, and noticed that I had knocked the image to the left in the component portion.


I originally had used the component input of the set to adjust the image, using all the great tips I found in this thread, and after getting the PS3, I noticed the image was pushed off to the right. I was hoping that HDMI and component had separate geom. settings. But, now that I've made the adjustments, I really don't want to reset the HDMI settings.


Plus, I got the screen to look as pretty even as i could get. For now.


What I would like to know is if there was a specific set of menu setting that would let me adjust the component and HDMI inputs separate from one another.


I started to adjust in anticipation for Halo 3. Now I feel kinda dumb for screwin' around with it so close to release.


I would also like to point out that about a year and a half ago, I had to re-install my OS after I caught a virus on my PC, and lost all my default settings that I had saved.


Still using my KV30HS420.


Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbluecheese* /forum/post/11587329
> 
> 
> No, all those settings are done. What I'm saying is that the top is underscanned BUT the TV is cutting off the picture.
> 
> 
> Like the TV is blacking out the top of the image. I know that there is a setting that expands the bottom of the image by REVEALING more of the image, but can't seem to find a similar option for the top of the picture.



It could be one of two things:


Least destructive route: Try the BLANKING adjustments. They act like masks/curtains/mattes.


Potentially more destructive: You can shrink and shift the screen so that you can see the entire picture using MID adjustments.


There are all methods of comming to what you consider a "good" picture. What's important is to write down a log of your changes so that they can be undone, if need be.


I'm sure there all manner of adjustments in the MID menu that can ruin the "scaling" of the picture. I still fiddle with these and try to create a more "dense" picture by shrinking the picture as much as possible, then working with the geometry, then resizing to the minimum ammount of overscan (covering any residual uglies with the blanking shutters.)


Blah, blah, blah....


Read and do what you feel.


Cheers,


Bryan


----------



## like.no.other.

What are the adjustments for the right side of the screen of XBR970. Everything else is

straight but there is a pinching effect towards the right. So what are the adjustments for

that.


----------



## Nym90

I have a small reddish spot in the middle right side of my KD34XS955. It's near the edge of the screen about half way up the right side. I know the Landing controls can change the red/green shift of the corners of the screen, but I haven't found a control specifically for the right center area of the screen.


Another one I've been unable to fix is a slightly downward bending of horizontal lines in the upper left corner of the screen. Any idea which service menu control would correct that?


Thanks in advance for replies.


----------



## fivestarav




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HDTVblues3* /forum/post/11706691
> 
> 
> Evening, all.
> 
> 
> I've been sitting here trying to tweak the 1080i HDMI input using my PS3, which I intended to transfer and test the results in the component part of the TV where my X360 is, and noticed that I had knocked the image to the left in the component portion.
> 
> 
> I originally had used the component input of the set to adjust the image, using all the great tips I found in this thread, and after getting the PS3, I noticed the image was pushed off to the right. I was hoping that HDMI and component had separate geom. settings. But, now that I've made the adjustments, I really don't want to reset the HDMI settings.
> 
> 
> Plus, I got the screen to look as pretty even as i could get. For now.
> 
> 
> What I would like to know is if there was a specific set of menu setting that would let me adjust the component and HDMI inputs separate from one another.
> 
> 
> I started to adjust in anticipation for Halo 3. Now I feel kinda dumb for screwin' around with it so close to release.
> 
> 
> I would also like to point out that about a year and a half ago, I had to re-install my OS after I caught a virus on my PC, and lost all my default settings that I had saved.
> 
> 
> Still using my KV30HS420.
> 
> 
> Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.



Hmmmmm. I was gonna ask a similar question in a few days. I seem to be doing the opposite of you, component first and then moving on to my PS3 / HDMI. (I have the XBR970). If it turns out that HDMI and component can't be treated separately, perhaps you can keep your PS3 at 1080i and your 360 at 720p. Surely the resolutions are treated separately, no? (I am by no means an expert, so beware my words! I'm still learning the ins and outs of the service menu.)


----------



## WJonathan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *like.no.other.* /forum/post/11707257
> 
> 
> What are the adjustments for the right side of the screen of XBR970. Everything else is
> 
> straight but there is a pinching effect towards the right. So what are the adjustments for
> 
> that.



You mean a pincushion effect? Horizontal or vertical?


----------



## like.no.other.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WJonathan* /forum/post/11712546
> 
> 
> You mean a pincushion effect? Horizontal or vertical?



I know what pincushion is. I don't need the whole screen to be affected.

Everything else is straight but towards the end it has a PINCHING EFFECT.


------------\\


------------/


Sorta like that but not that dramatic. Just a sense of what I am saying.


----------



## mave198

I just would like to thank all those who participated in this wonderful thread, and much respect to KenTech for creating it.


I was thinking about tinkering in the service menu back in early 2006 when I purchased my first HDTV the 34XS955 in order to fix some color errors and geometry problems I recognized when using DVE to calibrate the TV.


However I saw all this information and was admittedly overwhelmed by the information and just plain scared of messing up my new TV. But the problems really irked me whenever I tried to enjoy my TV and just yesterday started to look at the this thread again to see what could I do, nothing fancy of course, to improve the image of my set. After gathering up enough cajones to jump into the service menu, I simply adjusted such fields as RYB, RYG, GYR, GYB to get the corresponding colors practically perfect through the DVE supplied color filter and used VPOS, VSIZ, HPOS, HSIZ and HTPZ to manipulate the geometry errors I had and basically eliminated the annoying cutting off of info at the top of the right screen. I still have some vertical bowing which I understand needs the use of magnets, but it's not that bad. Plus I don't feel like shelling out the money for a minor nuisance nor do I feel like getting electricuted to death.


I will definitely be looking at the more intricute adjustments when I feel I have a full understanding of the source material contained within this thread.


Again, congrats to all who participated in this thread and to those who benefited.


----------



## AMH

I have a KV-27HS420. When I run an OTA HD tuner (Samsung) into the TV at 720p or 1080i, the top and bottom black bars on the TV cut off part of the channel's signal/picture. Is there a way to reduce the height of the bars at top and bottom via the TV's settings?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## mave198




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AMH* /forum/post/11789906
> 
> 
> I have a KV-27HS420. When I run an OTA HD tuner (Samsung) into the TV at 720p or 1080i, the top and bottom black bars on the TV cut off part of the channel's signal/picture. Is there a way to reduce the height of the bars at top and bottom via the TV's settings?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Try looking for settings that are labled VPOS, VSIZ, HPOS and HSIZ.


Sounds like you have a overscan problem and those values are very good at fixing that issue.


----------



## AMH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mave198* /forum/post/11793372
> 
> 
> Try looking for settings that are labled VPOS, VSIZ, HPOS and HSIZ.
> 
> 
> Sounds like you have a overscan problem and those values are very good at fixing that issue.



Thanks. Adjusting the vertical and horizontal size and position along with the top and bottom blanking shutters (TBLK, BBLK) seemed to do the trick.


----------



## dymlos2

Hey guys,


I've been trying to follow this thread for a while now, and thanks to you, I've been able to ajust most of my geometry problems. But while messing around with the geometry I've managed to mess up the right bottom corner of my KV30HS420. It looks like there's a second shadow on everything. I have attached a picture with how it looks like. Notice on the word "FREE" there's an dark orange/red showdow. Any help would be appriciated.


----------



## fivestarav




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dymlos2* /forum/post/11832397
> 
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> 
> I've been trying to follow this thread for a while now, and thanks to you, I've been able to ajust most of my geometry problems. But while messing around with the geometry I've managed to mess up the right bottom corner of my KV30HS420. It looks like there's a second shadow on everything. I have attached a picture with how it looks like. Notice on the word "FREE" there's an dark orange/red showdow. Any help would be appriciated.



Ah, yes - the PS3 store home page on a CRT HDTV. I swear, if Sony had any mercy in their souls they'd do a "curved blade" look on their store page like the Xbox 360 so we CRT owners would quit being anal about geometry. I have no solutions for you, just comfort that you aren't the only one bugged by such things. I straighten one part of the screen, and the edges go bendy. I straighten the edges and .... well you get the idea. I had to compromise. The good part is I don't notice such things when playing a game. Do you?


I wish I could be more help. Good luck!


----------



## dymlos2




> Quote:
> The good part is I don't notice such things when playing a game. Do you?



The geometry itself isn't the problem. I did compromise with that. It's the shadow effect that really driving me mad. For example, Motorstorm has a lot of red/orange/brown/dark brown colors in the menus as well as in the game (like the split times and stuff). So when I see orange onscreen to the right, I noticed the red outline around gauges that shouldnt be there, almost like a shadow. Besides, Im the type person, when I see something that bothers me, it pesters me till no end.


----------



## G-Bull




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dymlos2* /forum/post/11833006
> 
> 
> The geometry itself isn't the problem. I did compromise with that. It's the shadow effect that really driving me mad. For example, Motorstorm has a lot of red/orange/brown/dark brown colors in the menus as well as in the game (like the split times and stuff). So when I see orange onscreen to the right, I noticed the red outline around gauges that shouldnt be there, almost like a shadow. Besides, Im the type person, when I see something that bothers me, it pesters me till no end.



It looks like a convergence problem. Dynamic convergence adjustments are made within the DCONV menu in the service menu. The different parameters in DCONV adjust the convergence in a different part of the screen.


But, if I recall correctly (and I hope for your sake I'm wrong about this) I don't think the HS420 models have dynamic convergence adjustments. I think they have the DCONV menu, but none of the settings actually do anything at all. I think convergence can only be corrected with physical adjustments to the rings on the yoke on the back of the CRT inside the TV's case.


----------



## BlueMan1

I have Sony 34HS420. I've used the service menu to get my set's geometry to my liking. When I did this I also got my 4x3 window opened up all the way. When I did this I noticed that the far right 2 or 3 vertical lines are in B&W and the color bleeds off the left side of the 4x3 window. It seems as if the colors are offset somehow. How do I fix this?


----------



## dcorban

I have a fairly simple question.


The Sony service mode instructions state "Press 8 then ENTER on the Remote Commander to initialize". Is this something that should be done before making changes to the service mode settings?


The context of the service manual seems to imply that you should perform this step before saving.


Will it reset some sort of factory setting that may be a pain to recover?


I don't recall doing this step on my last Sony TV and I am wondering if it is something I should do or something to avoid.


----------



## ClayPigeon

I never heard of pressing 8 then enter on Sony sets. I have accidentally hit 8 with my fat sausage fingers and it said "reset" but thankfully nothing happened. I'm pretty sure most Sony sets use the same "muting and enter" to write new value data.


----------



## Dangle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BlueMan1* /forum/post/11980241
> 
> 
> I have Sony 34HS420. I've used the service menu to get my set's geometry to my liking. When I did this I also got my 4x3 window opened up all the way. When I did this I noticed that the far right 2 or 3 vertical lines are in B&W and the color bleeds off the left side of the 4x3 window. It seems as if the colors are offset somehow. How do I fix this?



I have this identical problem on the side of the screen. I should add that I haven't touched the settings or geometry.


I contacted Sony about the screen and they said bring it into a shop before the 2 year screen warranty expires. I purchased mine in Jan of 06. If the thing wasn't a 1/4 ton I'd bring it in.


----------



## master9716

Is there any chance or has anyone tried running 1080p on this set. 34xbr910 . Well I did some adjustments and the picture looked so Good with direct tv hd that I decided not to sell it. this post helped me out a lot even though its for an Old school tv.



are there any settings that will improve how small text looks , in other words so I can see text clearly from my pc.


----------



## Rvan61

Hello all, long time Sony owner here with a question you all probably know. I have this great TV with a new 622 Dish HD-DVR they just installed last week. The problem is that on HD channels, it looks like a widescreen TV, black bars on top and bottom.


On regular (non-HD) channels, there is a significant black bar on all 4 sides of the TV, reducing the size of the picture down to about 27" ???


I can't find the dang original remote, is there anyway I can reset this so the picture goes all the way to the edges??


Many thanks in advance


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rvan61* /forum/post/12385118
> 
> 
> Hello all, long time Sony owner here with a question you all probably know. I have this great TV with a new 622 Dish HD-DVR they just installed last week. The problem is that on HD channels, it looks like a widescreen TV, black bars on top and bottom.
> 
> 
> On regular (non-HD) channels, there is a significant black bar on all 4 sides of the TV, reducing the size of the picture down to about 27" ???
> 
> 
> I can't find the dang original remote, is there anyway I can reset this so the picture goes all the way to the edges??
> 
> 
> Many thanks in advance



The set is a 4:3 set, correct? If not, ignore the next two paragraphs.


The SD programming is probably being upconverted by your HD DVR. If possible, set the HD-DVR to passthrough SD programming (which is 4:3) as 480i or 480p. This should fill the screen for this type of programming.


HD programming, generally 16:9 by default, when viewed on a 4:3 set will always have black bars on top and bottom. That's one of the drawbacks to 4:3 HD sets. The only option would be to zoom the HD to fill the screen, which will reduce quality, however, the older Sony sets usually lock the screen mode (zoom feature) for HD inputs, so this may not be an option.


There should be a thread on this forum that will help with the setup of your HD DVR.


BTW, many HD channels, in particular non-primetime network programming, will be broadcasted as upconverted SD with black pillars added. Without a zoom function, there is very little that can be done for those situations.


----------



## Mark_Likes_Games

Set is the KD30XS955. Ok, I THOUGHT I had convergence dialed in (and I did) for 480p component on Input 5 - it was great. Until I finally hooked up an Xbox 360...then I saw errors I knew I had fixed...


In the PDF chart of settings from this thread, I don't see any mention of the D-CONV settings changing based on inputs or signal format (480, 720, etc.) but that's what seems to be happening...


Inputting 720p from the 360 over component showed bad convergence in areas I KNEW I had tweaked. So I went back in and used the real signal from the 360 to dial everything back in again - looks great...until I switch inputs to the old Xbox at 480p - now it's WAY off again on the right side.


So, it appears I must compromise and have one signal MUCH better than the other. I thought the settings are global for that menu, and I think they are. But it looks like the effect on different signal types is different.


If anyone has any advice here that would be great - I think there is something fundamental I must not understand. (By the way, I DO understand the first 12 D-CONV parameters and exactly what they influence - no problem there.)


Any suggestions, or do I just have to choose between optimizing one (720p) or having both (720 AND 480) be mediocre?









Thanks...


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark_Likes_Games* /forum/post/12389401
> 
> 
> .... Ok, I THOUGHT I had convergence dialed in (and I did) for 480p component on Input 5 - it was great. Until I finally hooked up an Xbox 360...then I saw errors I knew I had fixed......



What kind of errors are you seeing that you thought were corrected?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark_Likes_Games* /forum/post/12389401
> 
> 
> .....In the PDF chart of settings from this thread, I don't see any mention of the D-CONV settings changing based on inputs or signal format (480, 720, etc.) but that's what seems to be happening......



The dynamic convergence, D-CONV, service menu items are global adjustments. Viewing a cross-hatch or vertical line pattern is about the only accurate way to make these adjustments. What did you use?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark_Likes_Games* /forum/post/12389401
> 
> 
> .......Inputting 720p from the 360 over component showed bad convergence in areas I KNEW I had tweaked. So I went back in and used the real signal from the 360 to dial everything back in again - looks great...until I switch inputs to the old Xbox at 480p - now it's WAY off again on the right side......



What exactly are you viewing while making these adjustments?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark_Likes_Games* /forum/post/12389401
> 
> 
> .... I thought the settings are global for that menu, and I think they are. But it looks like the effect on different signal types is different......



They are global.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark_Likes_Games* /forum/post/12389401
> 
> 
> ...... I think there is something fundamental I must not understand......



There may be.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark_Likes_Games* /forum/post/12389401
> 
> 
> .....(By the way, I DO understand the first 12 D-CONV parameters and exactly what they influence - no problem there.)......



I'm not too sure you do.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark_Likes_Games* /forum/post/12389401
> 
> 
> .....Any suggestions, or do I just have to choose between optimizing one (720p) or having both (720 AND 480) be mediocre?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks...



Convergence should be a global adjustment and you should not have to choose.


----------



## Mark_Likes_Games

Raouliii (that's a lot of vowels!),

Thanks for the reply, sounds like you're trying to help! I'll answer answer your points and maybe it will reveal something...but it looks to me like the convergence adjustments can't be set for all modes perfectly... we'll see.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/12390750
> 
> 
> What kind of errors are you seeing that you thought were corrected?



When I first adjusted the D-CONV items, I did not use HD, only 480p/i. It turned out fairly good and I made the upper right and left a lot better. When I input 720p I noticed that the upper right was pretty off again, with red way shifted to the left.



> Quote:
> The dynamic convergence, D-CONV, service menu items are global adjustments. Viewing a cross-hatch or vertical line pattern is about the only accurate way to make these adjustments. What did you use?



The first time I adjusted, I used white on black grid patterns from a memory stick and the test patterns available in the service menu itself. Then I previewed actual source material (Xbox). Even then I was noticing that there seemed to be differences when looking at test patterns or material from different sources.



> Quote:
> What exactly are you viewing while making these adjustments?



This time I mostly used the actual source material. Mostly menu screens with small white text from Halo 3 at 720p over component. I also double checked with internal test patterns, but mostly I optimized using the actual image from the 360.



> Quote:
> They are global.



Right, that's why I don't get why the result is changing based on input, and it certainly is.



> Quote:
> I'm not too sure you do.



I have the service manual PDF which shows diagrams for what each of the first 12 parameters do in D-CONV. It's not really that hard to understand. I'm pretty confident I'm not confused here. (I think you just questioned my ignorance...)



> Quote:
> Convergence should be a global adjustment and you should not have to choose.



That's what I was hoping, but it really doesn't seem that way. I used RSAP to tweak the right side more based on what I was seeing from the 360. This was a bit different than my settings at 480. When I changed inputs from video 6 (360) back to video 5 (Xbox at 480p) the result was unacceptable. The RSAP adjustment that was fine on the 360 was completely off at 480 with full separation of colors on the far right. Bogus. Switching back to the 360 showed thin white lines on the right in the same area as fairly well converged, as good as I could get them.


So, it appears that even though the settings are global, they react differently to different sources, unless there's something else I'm not understanding - which is why I'm asking you guys for help!


Thanks - let me know what you think.


----------



## PimpUigi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *master9716* /forum/post/12109063
> 
> 
> Is there any chance or has anyone tried running 1080p on this set. 34xbr910 . Well I did some adjustments and the picture looked so Good with direct tv hd that I decided not to sell it. this post helped me out a lot even though its for an Old school tv.
> 
> 
> 
> are there any settings that will improve how small text looks , in other words so I can see text clearly from my pc.



Hmm, good questions.


----------



## Mark_Likes_Games

For Raouliii and any others who were wondering about my posts above, I think I figured it out.


I think what happened is that when I finally hooked up an HD source (Xbox 360) to the TV, I was seeing sharper finer details (lines) which made the convergence errors stand out more.


The other thing is that when switching around between different material (patterns and images) I think I was focusing on different areas of the picture, which made me think it was changing based on the source.


I rechecked my settings with more emphasis on the white grid pattern and double checked consistency between sources (HD 720 vs 480). It seems that it does stay consistent. One caution though, sometimes when you are inside the service menu and change inputs or video signals, the settings go back to what was last written - this may have also been misleading me as I was switching around a lot back and forth...


In the end I got it the best I can, I was not able to get the upper left area to converge nicely, but the rest is fairly good. It is a trade off and sometimes you have to live with a part that's not great to get most of the frame looking good.


Thanks again.


----------



## blacksoprano

I have a KV-36HS510 recently purchased the tv picture is awesome I love the set. The only problem well not a problem but i was wondering if it is a to disable or turn 16:9 Enhancement off?? When watching dvds i have no problems but when i am watching a hd broadcast that is already wide screen it shrinks it even more. I had a 4:3 ratio hd tv before and i could change set up on cable box to make hd signal full screen but the 16:9 Enhancement always kicks in the only options i see is auto or on not off.


----------



## like.no.other.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blacksoprano* /forum/post/12475259
> 
> 
> I have a KV-36HS510 recently purchased the tv picture is awesome I love the set. The only problem well not a problem but i was wondering if it is a to disable or turn 16:9 Enhancement off?? When watching dvds i have no problems but when i am watching a hd broadcast that is already wide screen it shrinks it even more. I had a 4:3 ratio hd tv before and i could change set up on cable box to make hd signal full screen but the 16:9 Enhancement always kicks in the only options i see is auto or on not off.



You can't. 16:9 enhancement are there so you can accept 16:9 HD signal.

Turning that option off is like overscanning it 33% or more depending on your

CRT yoke position.


----------



## blacksoprano

I FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO IT!!! turn the tv off hit display, 5, volume + then power. when the service codes come up hit the number one button until you see "jump" in the top right hand corner hit the 3 button to turn off the hit muting then enter turn tv off and it is gone. I saw a post in a forum where some people where fixing some lines and vertical size issues once i read that and saw how to get access codes i played around and found the correct option now when i watch a hd dvd or blu ray, or dvd upscaled to 1080i the only bars are from the movie source man i am sooooooooo happy i have been told a million times that this was not possible and it is! when i am watching a reg hd signal from tv box i disable becuase the 16:9 mode is fine when watching hd on tv/cable box the problem was when you are watching a movie that is already 16:9 it was like it was doing a double 16:9 shrink man i am soooooooo happy this tv has the best resolution and clarity i have ever seen.


----------



## PimpUigi

Service menu is a magical thing.


----------



## blacksoprano

You speak no greater truth!! i have the tweak to my specs and i am watchinh heroes in HD it is awesome Thank GOD for service menu!!


----------



## zondahp

I've been reading around in these forums a lot lately and decided to try tweaking a few settings in the service menu just for the hell of it. I changed my SBRT a bit and fooled around with BCUT and such. I was messing with GAMM when all of a sudden the screen went black. The screen turned back on with a grippattern of white lines "Ill try and get a picture up as soon as possible." Im not sure if i pressed another button because being my dumb self I was looking to see what every button would do... If anyone knows what the cause of this is and how to fix it that would be greatly appreciated.


I can still access the service menu but i cant do anything else like change the channel or even go into the regular menu.


I unplugged the television but no result..


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zondahp* /forum/post/12525514
> 
> 
> I've been reading around in these forums a lot lately and decided to try tweaking a few settings in the service menu just for the hell of it. I changed my SBRT a bit and fooled around with BCUT and such. I was messing with GAMM when all of a sudden the screen went black. The screen turned back on with a grippattern of white lines "Ill try and get a picture up as soon as possible." Im not sure if i pressed another button because being my dumb self I was looking to see what every button would do... If anyone knows what the cause of this is and how to fix it that would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> I can still access the service menu but i cant do anything else like change the channel or even go into the regular menu.
> 
> 
> I unplugged the television but no result..



That sounds like a built in pattern that is turned on. I believe that you just need to turn it off. My set doesn't have patterns but this post from earlier in this thread may help you turn them off.


----------



## gibdied

Hi. I've got a geometry problem on a 36HS420. I've read through a bunch of this thread and looked at many .pdf files. My tentative conclusion based on my research is that this issue I have is not solvable from within the service menu. However, I thought I'd go ahead and post just to be certain.


Basically, the problem is that my picture slopes down on the right side of the screen. See the attached drawing to see what I mean - it's crude, but it makes the point. Note that this downward slope occurs on 480i material as well, but it's just not really noticeable due to vertical overscan. The major exception is for channels that have a ticker, like CNN, which makes the downward slope obvious with both the line that demarcates the ticker and the text scroll itself.


Any thoughts or insight would be great. Thanks.


----------



## nick-g




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/11432134
> 
> 
> I've finally accomplished what I thought would be impossible with my 34xs955. I made it look very similar to my 24"FW900 computer monitor. Took me forever and a day to get here, but now that I'm here I'll never go back to a downgrade in technology. I truly hope SED gets here soon or my tubes last forever.
> 
> 
> These are my final~ settings for the 34xs955 HDMI input. I only use this input because that is what my Pio 91 connects to, and I like having the HDMI conversion since it forces my 480i connections to 480p with the proper 4:3 ratio with black bars, or 16:9. Most of my settings came from reading, and seeing first hand, what some of the service codes do to the image, and other settings came from the 34xs955 service manual. I tried to eliminate any instance of video source alteration to get as true and clean a signal as possible.
> 
> 
> The key here is to get the MID1 codes right, then adjust the MID2 codes. If you have either group too far off the focus and resolution is very far off and the *Sharpness = Min* will not work. The ENHA settings are also key here too. Combining all of these correctly will allow you to keep the sharpness slider set to Min or off.
> 
> 
> I don't like to add sharpness, personally, for three important reasons.
> 
> 1. It makes jagged lines stand out more.
> 
> 2. It alters the source material. (My FW900 computer monitor doesn't even have a sharpness slider on it.)
> 
> 3. It is a bad compensator for focus.
> 
> 
> I've attached a text file with many of the codes I use for my TV.
> 
> I will be uploading some images later to show how great this set looks, especially for video games.
> 
> *Please keep in mind that these settings are for those of us that normally play video games on this TV.* These settings are probably *not* optimal for low to medium quality broadcast material.



Nextgen, I am having some issues with focus on my 30XS955 so I thought I would try your ENHA changes to see if that helped. My problem though is mostly on the sides of the screen and these changes did not seem to effect the problem very much, do you have ideas for settings I should try to change to fix the focus on the sides?


*edit* I guess I didn't mean to limit this to Nextgen...if anyone has suggestions I would gladly listen!


----------



## krazykarl

Anyone aware if there is a way inside the service menu to change the coax input between antenna and cable? My original remote broke and there's no way to do it with the sony universal remote or inside the menu system. My TV model is a KD-30xs955.


----------



## unbiased

Hello, I just noticed recently that my old Sony model KD-34XBR2 HDTV has the defect of vertical scrolling bar that turns everything under it as it moves across the screen from pinkish to greenish tint. This problem has been discussed and reported on many various XBR models, but I was not able to find anything for my model KD-34XBR2 purchased early year 2002 (if I remember correctly).


So does anyone know of a Service Menu procedure to fix this bug on this particular model? I cannot find an HOSC parameter when I go into its Service Mode. Please someone has to have this model and had it fixed somehow, someway? I cannot enjoy viewing my new HD-DVD and BlueRay discs at 1080i via the component inputs. Depressed. I had this set all these years and never knew it had a 1080i bug/defect until just a couple of days ago when I first connected up my new HD player. BAD Sony!


----------



## colleyvillesoon

I know my TV is old, but I have the SONY 30HS420 and was looking for list the best SM settings. I found some in an older thread from 05 from Nick2003 but he said to check this thread for the most up to date info. I was really happy with the one I got from his, but wanted to tweak it further.


any help or link would be great. I've searched and maybe an attachment or link doesn't exists but I thought I'd ask.


Thanks.


----------



## keldarironfist

i have my own thread which ill post in but i applied the hdpt change from 1 to 0 on my 34hs420 and it made it much worse the bar was much much more pronounced,u absolutely could not miss it. needless to say i changed it back....but this is very discouraging...


----------



## midnite2

I have a 34xs955 and I noticed after playing my xbox 360 that the bottom two corners of the screen are a little blurry. when looking at a cross hatch pattern on the tv I have also noticed that the the outermost lines on the left and right are a little blurry. The outermost right also bows out at the top of the screen. I am not sure if they are related but I would love to at least get the bottom corners a little clearer if possible. does anyone know what I could try messing with in the service menu to try and correct these issues? I have messed around in the service menu before and am aware of the damage that can be done.

thanks


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nick-g* /forum/post/12540858
> 
> 
> Nextgen, I am having some issues with focus on my 30XS955 so I thought I would try your ENHA changes to see if that helped. My problem though is mostly on the sides of the screen and these changes did not seem to effect the problem very much, do you have ideas for settings I should try to change to fix the focus on the sides?
> 
> 
> *edit* I guess I didn't mean to limit this to Nextgen...if anyone has suggestions I would gladly listen!





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *midnite2* /forum/post/12677462
> 
> 
> I have a 34xs955 and I noticed after playing my xbox 360 that the bottom two corners of the screen are a little blurry. when looking at a cross hatch pattern on the tv I have also noticed that the the outermost lines on the left and right are a little blurry. The outermost right also bows out at the top of the screen. I am not sure if they are related but I would love to at least get the bottom corners a little clearer if possible. does anyone know what I could try messing with in the service menu to try and correct these issues? I have messed around in the service menu before and am aware of the damage that can be done.
> 
> thanks



Even my TV has some blur on the outermost left and right edges of the screen. This isn't so much a focus problem as it sounds like a typical convergence problem. So, I would start by writing down all your settings, tweak the geometry a bit more, then try getting better convergence/focus, and finally try the ENHA adjustments. For myself, I had to completely start over and input the default factory MID settings first, then tweak the MID settings, then do my geometry tweaking, and so on.


For good focus adjustment, try an image with lots of medium to fine text. I actually use my PS3 web browser in 1080i to finalize my focus adjustments.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/12703100
> 
> 
> Even my TV has some blur on the outermost left and right edges of the screen. This isn't so much a focus problem as it sounds like a typical convergence problem. So, I would start by writing down all your settings, tweak the geometry a bit more, then try getting better convergence/focus, and finally try the ENHA adjustments.



While there is no ENHA present in my 34XBR960 service menu, I point out that there is just so much you can do within the tweaks available through service menu. There are lots and lots of tweaks available, and lots of geometry/convergence improvement can be accomplished, but there definitely are some limitations on what you can hope to accomplish.


For example, convergence problems (especially in the corners) and "focus" problems (which might really be convergence problems) can't necessarily be fixed through service menu tweaks. Note that only horizontal convergence issues are "software-adjustable" in this way. Unfortunately, vertical convergence corrections cannot be corrected this way and can only be fixed by the application of a number of small permalloy magnets to the proper place(s) on the back of the picture tube by a service technician. These small magnets have stickum on the back, come in packages, and are standard Sony parts available for purchase.

This post from earlier in this thread discusses this subject, and also provides a fine overscan test pattern (from DisplayMate for Windows Video Edition) you might want to add to your arsenal of test patterns. It is also SUPERB to adjust convergence, and by implication, focus as well.


When I first bought my XBR960 several years ago I was unhappy with the delivered status of both curvature (both horizontal and vertical), as well as convergence problems in the corners. I couldn't believe the set was supposed to look that way from all that I'd read before buying it. I contacted Sony and they sent out a technician, who did some service menu adjustments and some magnet work, but even after he left I was dissatisfied. I called Sony again and they authorized my calling a local authorized service tech for a second visit, who came out and over two separate trips spent about 2 hours doing magnet work. He turned out to be amazing, and the corrected visual results were remarkable. He has been my service tech ever since for assorted other video equipment repairs.


When the magnet job was finally complete I was now able to make maximum use of the service menu to "fine tune" geometry and convergence for myself, to my own tastes. I must say, my XBR960 picture is remarkably rectangular (and un-bowed on the edges and in the corners) and has no convergence or focus issues.


Just a pitch for the possibility that a service tech visit and related magnet work might also be appropriate for your set if service menu tweaks prove inadequate.


----------



## ClayPigeon

I noticed that depending how large you have the raster ( or the mid settings DHHP etc..) If it's too small you will notice the far sides will have reflecting issues and look like convergence errors. When i went back and adjusted the mid settings so i could actually have the WHOLE picture on my xbr970 it was great, but after reading about how messing with some of them settings, especially the vertical ones, it caused the scan lines to become blurry. So i went back and readjusted my mid settings back to default, and adjusted the overscan as best as possible for the VSIZ ( which leads much to be desired) I didn't notice any changes to the scan lines when adjusting the horizontal settings such as DHHP, so i was able to get away with that. But the stretching of the picture to get to around 3-5% overscan and fit the whole picture inside the raster it caused some what looks like "barrel distortion" like when a news ticker goes across it appears to "bulge out" once it reaches a certain point on the left side of the screen. I thought this could be corrected with some linearity parameters in the service menu, but when checking to make sure each box in a hatch pattern measured the same i was shocked that they were the same across the whole screen! So it makes me wonder what can be causing this?


When i got this set the right side of my set was at 10% overscan and the left 5. The picture wasn't even aligned right with the raster! so when i lowered the overscan with Hsiz it made this black line appear at the edge of the screen, the only way to fix this was to expand the raster with the mid settings, then adjust vsiz,hsiz etc. to fit inside it and center it. But i really would like to lower the overscan more on the vertical. But i can't without causing the blurring scan line error.


So what i'm wondering, people who had these sets professional calibrated what do the calibrators do to correct this problem? did they change any of the mid settings? and do they know the mathematical equations to keep everything right when changing them? if the mid settings shouldn't be messed with at all? Just make due with what they can by only adjusting Hsiz , Vsiz?


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ClayPigeon* /forum/post/12728328
> 
> 
> I noticed that depending how large you have the raster ( or the mid settings DHHP etc..)...



I don't know what is on the XBR970, but in the XBR960 there is no such DHHP item in the MID1 group. It's DHPH. Is that what you're referring to?


Also, as I understand things it is the MID2 items DRHP, DRHS, DRVP and DRVS which are used for 480i. And it is the MID3 items VDHP, VDHS, VDVE and VDVS which are used for 480p, 720p and 1080i. These adjust image horizontal/vertical position/size within the background raster.


The background raster position/size is adjusted with the 2170D-1 items VPOS and VSIZ (for vertical position/size) and 2170D-2 items HPOS and HSIZ (for horizontal position/size).


I've not touched the MID1 settings when tuning my XBR960. Only MID2 and MID3 (depending on input and source being adjusted), working with 2170D-1 and 2170D-2.


As far as I can tell, I've done no harm by tweaking the MID2 and MID3 values as needed (with 16x9 test patterns). I've simply accomplished what my eyes see as "near perfection" geometry based on various test patterns.


----------



## drkone

I can't get my service menu changes to save.


I press MUTING, ENTER. "Write" turns red but the change doesn't stick around the next time I turn the tv on.


Or if I press MUTING, ENTER (write turns red) and the press ZERO, ENTER (to read) the value reverts to the pre-changed value.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *drkone* /forum/post/12789624
> 
> 
> I can't get my service menu changes to save.
> 
> 
> I press MUTING, ENTER. "Write" turns red but the change doesn't stick around the next time I turn the tv on.
> 
> 
> Or if I press MUTING, ENTER (write turns red) and the press ZERO, ENTER (to read) the value reverts to the pre-changed value.



I seem to recall that a Write takes a few seconds to occur. The label turns red then back to green after a successful write cycle. Is this happening for you?


Also, I believe there may be a few items that cannot be permanently saved. What are you attempting to change?


You should also consider that if you Write a new value into the service menu and then check that value in a different mode (input resolution, screen mode, zoom mode, DRC, etc.) of operation, you may not actually be seeing the value that you previously modified. Its very important to have a copy of the actual service manual listing of the service menu items, instead of the spreadsheets that are floating around. Most of the spreadsheets don't give a clear understanding of the service menu listing. The user must have a firm understanding of what is being modified.


----------



## drkone

Yes, the word "WRITE" changes from green to red and then back to "SERVICE."

I'm trying to change SBRT. I've tried with HSIZ, HPOS, HCEN, too and the same thing happens..


puzzling


----------



## miscrms

Sorry I haven't been able to read the whole thread yet, but I'm hoping someone can answer a quick question.


I get a ~3-4 unit jump in VPOS for the same HDMI source in the same mode/resolution based on whether I start up in service mode or normal. Is there anything I can do about that? It worries me bit, as I wonder what else is moving around?


TV is 34xbr970, source is either sony upscaling DVD or computer at 1080i over HDMI on video6.


Thanks!

Rob


----------



## drkone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *drkone* /forum/post/12789624
> 
> 
> I can't get my service menu changes to save.
> 
> 
> I press MUTING, ENTER. "Write" turns red but the change doesn't stick around the next time I turn the tv on.
> 
> 
> Or if I press MUTING, ENTER (write turns red) and the press ZERO, ENTER (to read) the value reverts to the pre-changed value.



Solved.


Turns out that you need to unplug the set after saving changes. I remembered reading in one of the service manuals something about unplugging to ensure that your values were saved, so I did it after saving and the values were retained.


Powering off alone doesn't (at least in this case) cause the new values to be read into whatever working memory the set uses to obtain its values. Unplugging and powering up must force a read from non-volatile memory while simply powering down must somehow cause intermediate values to be retained. Seems wrong. I'd expect writing to mean "use these values" not "these are the values to use after unplugging the set."


Or something.


----------



## Sol_Zagato

I have been watching videos from my PC on my Sony 34HS420 via s-video for about a year now. I really like how the Wide-Zoom feature can distribute a 4:3 picture across the whole screen without distorting it, unlike Full mode.


However, I recently upgraded my cables to DVI-HDMI and although the picture clarity has vastly improved, the TV locks on Full mode.


Is there a setting in the service menu I can manipulate to prevent this from happening? I have tried outputing different resolutions from my PC but the TV keeps enforcing Full mode just because it's connected by HDMI.


In other words, I would like to have a clean 4:3 picture on the TV over HDMI that I can stretch to my liking with the Zoom and Wide-Zoom modes.


Thanks for the help.


----------



## primetimeguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sol_Zagato* /forum/post/12826361
> 
> 
> I have been watching videos from my PC on my Sony 34HS420 via s-video for about a year now. I really like how the Wide-Zoom feature can distribute a 4:3 picture across the whole screen without distorting it, unlike Full mode.
> 
> 
> However, I recently upgraded my cables to DVI-HDMI and although the picture clarity has vastly improved, the TV locks on Full mode.
> 
> 
> Is there a setting in the service menu I can manipulate to prevent this from happening? I have tried outputing different resolutions from my PC but the TV keeps enforcing Full mode just because it's connected by HDMI.
> 
> 
> In other words, I would like to have a clean 4:3 picture on the TV over HDMI that I can stretch to my liking with the Zoom and Wide-Zoom modes.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help.



A lot of TVs lock into Full Mode and do not allow you to change aspect ratios when it sees as HD resolution (720p and above). Is the signal going out the HDMI being upconverted?


FYI, Wide Mode does distort the picture, just more so on the edges than the middle.


----------



## raouliii

I have the immediate predecessor of the HS420, the HS510. Via DVI or component, my set DOES lock into FULL mode for HD resolution inputs but DOES NOT for 480i inputs.


----------



## vazel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/11834627
> 
> 
> But, if I recall correctly (and I hope for your sake I'm wrong about this) I don't think the HS420 models have dynamic convergence adjustments. I think they have the DCONV menu, but none of the settings actually do anything at all. I think convergence can only be corrected with physical adjustments to the rings on the yoke on the back of the CRT inside the TV's case.



I think this is only true of the 30HS420 model. My D-CONV menu doesn't work on my 30HS420 and I know of another person with the same model TV that doesn't have his D-CONV menu work either.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-Bull* /forum/post/11834627
> 
> 
> .......But, if I recall correctly (and I hope for your sake I'm wrong about this) I don't think the HS420 models have dynamic convergence adjustments. I think they have the DCONV menu, but none of the settings actually do anything at all. I think convergence can only be corrected with physical adjustments to the rings on the yoke on the back of the CRT inside the TV's case.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vazel* /forum/post/12840110
> 
> 
> I think this is only true of the 30HS420 model. My D-CONV menu doesn't work on my 30HS420 and I know of another person with the same model TV that doesn't have his D-CONV menu work either.



I don't have a copy of the HS420 service manual, so I can't be sure but I would be VERY surprised if dynamic convergence did not exist for these models. As far back as the XBR2 CRT, up to the last model - XBR970, dynamic convergence was/is used for fine tuning of horizontal convergence.


The first step in standard convergence alignment procedure, in all of the Sony service manuals I have, is to disable dynamic convergence by unplugging a connector in the set. This connector is CN903 for the XBR800 A-board, XBR910/HS510 A-board, XBR960/XS955 AZ-board and XBR970 A-board. After static convergence is adjusted, the connector is reconnected and dynamic convergence (horizontal) is adjusted. Just an idea. Maybe the HS420 factory convergence tech made a habit of not plugging the connector back in?


----------



## Sol_Zagato




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/12827664
> 
> 
> I have the immediate predecessor of the HS420, the HS510. Via DVI or component, my set DOES lock into FULL mode for HD resolution inputs but DOES NOT for 480i inputs.



Thank you for this piece of information! I set my desktop's resolution to 640 x 480 and now it is possible to select the different screen modes on the TV.


There's one thing that keeps it from being perfect. For some reason the whole picture is kinda shaded, so it doesn't look vibrant nor clear anymore. I double checked the desktop resolution being @ 32 bits and still looks like so.


What can I try next ?


----------



## fivestarav

Hello, all. I have an XBR970.


I've had this issue for quite a while. My problem goes away after 30 minutes when the tv warms up, but I don't think I should accept that. Long story short, when I start up a my cold tv and display an anamorphic widescreen image in "FULL" mode (480p/480i), it appears that the right side of the screen doesn't quite reach the edge of the tv, causing a green hue. Only the top right corner reaches the edge and looks okay. Oddly enough, this is only a problem in 480i/480p FULL mode, and it goes away in about 30 minutes or so. Obviously, if the top right corner reaches the edge and the rest doesn't, the clear choice would be to correct the geometry on the lower right somehow. Unfortunately, all attempts to do so has messed up the rest of my geometry settings big time, so I don't consider that an option anymore. Looking at a crosshatch pattern, I definitely see slanting on the right border. I guess my question is this: is that slant from a damaged raster edge? If the raster is just a damaged "canvas" for an image, can I scoot the raster over a notch and move the image back to where it was with the MID settings to sit on a healthier raster part, or is that a pointless venture? I really don't wanna move the image in global settings because everything is centered quite well right now. And I'd hate to have to go to all my resolutions (including NTSC, and ATSC programming) and scoot images back to center.


(By the way, stretching the image with MID settings to push the annoying green hue off the screen isn't a healthy option at this point. It bumps icons from the Wii menu off the screen, and people's heads from DVDs look fatter than usual.)


Since it's an anamorphic widescreen issue, maybe I should concentrate on adjusting the 4x3 image in NORMAL mode somehow. I'm really confused. 720p and 1080i stuff in true widescreen don't suffer from this "tv-has-to-warm-up" problem. Any ideas? (I know this has been a long post. Sorry.)


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fivestarav* /forum/post/12982551
> 
> 
> .....and display an anamorphic widescreen image in "WIDE" mode (480p/480i), it appears that the right side of the screen doesn't quite reach the edge of the tv, causing a green hue. ....Since it's an anamorphic widescreen issue, maybe I should concentrate on adjusting the 4x3 image in NORMAL mode somehow. ....



I'm a little confused about your situation. Its always been my understanding that anamorphic widescreen content, (480i and 16:9), should display correctly in FULL mode.


Are you saying that it displays correctly in WIDE mode? Did you make geometry adjustments that may have created this situation? If yes, then that may be part of the problem. Your statement that 720p and 1080i displays with no problem, in FULL mode, also tends to support this.


----------



## WJonathan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fivestarav* /forum/post/12982551
> 
> 
> Hello, all. I have an XBR970.
> 
> 
> I've had this issue for quite a while. My problem goes away after 30 minutes when the tv warms up, but I don't think I should accept that. Long story short, when I start up a my cold tv and display an anamorphic widescreen image in "WIDE" mode (480p/480i), it appears that the right side of the screen doesn't quite reach the edge of the tv, causing a green hue. Only the top right corner reaches the edge and looks okay. Oddly enough, this is only a problem in 480i/480p WIDE mode, and it goes away in about 30 minutes or so. Obviously, if the top right corner reaches the edge and the rest doesn't, the clear choice would be to correct the geometry on the lower right somehow. Unfortunately, all attempts to do so has messed up the rest of my geometry settings big time, so I don't consider that an option anymore. Looking at a crosshatch pattern, I definitely see slanting on the right border. I guess my question is this: is that slant from a damaged raster edge? If the raster is just a damaged "canvas" for an image, can I scoot the raster over a notch and move the image back to where it was with the MID settings to sit on a healthier raster part, or is that a pointless venture? I really don't wanna move the image in global settings because everything is centered quite well right now. And I'd hate to have to go to all my resolutions (including NTSC, and ATSC programming) and scoot images back to center.
> 
> 
> (By the way, stretching the image with MID settings to push the annoying green hue off the screen isn't a healthy option at this point. It bumps icons from the Wii menu off the screen, and people's heads from DVDs look fatter than usual.)
> 
> 
> Since it's an anamorphic widescreen issue, maybe I should concentrate on adjusting the 4x3 image in NORMAL mode somehow. I'm really confused. 720p and 1080i stuff in true widescreen don't suffer from this "tv-has-to-warm-up" problem. Any ideas? (I know this has been a long post. Sorry.)



I can't answer your primary question, but it concerns me that this is a hot/cold issue. I don't have warmup issues on my 970, but my experience with CRT monitors and TVs tells me that screen problems dependant upon temperature are usually signs of a pending hardware failure. Is it under warranty?


----------



## fivestarav




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/12982627
> 
> 
> I'm a little confused about your situation. Its always been my understanding that anamorphic widescreen content, (480i and 16:9), should display correctly in FULL mode.
> 
> 
> Are you saying that it displays correctly in WIDE mode? Did you make geometry adjustments that may have created this situation? If yes, then that may be part of the problem. Your statement that 720p and 1080i displays with no problem, in FULL mode, also tends to support this.



Sorry sorry sorry. You are correct. I meant to use the word FULL, not WIDE. I will edit my previous post if I can.


Honestly, I remember this problem starting after a tech made an adjustment several months ago. I was unfamiliar with the service menu at the time, so I didn't notice exactly what he did. Maybe I didn't catch it right away because I usually jump into 720p/1080i stuff right when I turn on the tv, not 480 stuff. However...I also have notes of me playing with the HPOS a long time ago. The notes say I moved the HPOS from 24 to 27, but then I hated the result so I put it back to 25...but not 24 as it originally was. Hmmmmm. I assume this was because 4x3 content looked more centered at 25 than 24. Wow. Perhaps I did mess up my tv. Any other way to move the 4x3 window around other than HPOS? I'm aware of settings to move the content around WITHIN the window, but the only way I know how to move the 4x3 display border around is with HPOS, which is a global setting and should be avoided. Am I wrong?


I just regret having to mess with geometry all over again. I kinda like where it is now except for this 1 issue. I was hoping for a quick fix, but if it takes time to do it right, I guess I will.


----------



## fivestarav




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WJonathan* /forum/post/12983203
> 
> 
> I can't answer your primary question, but it concerns me that this is a hot/cold issue. I don't have warmup issues on my 970, but my experience with CRT monitors and TVs tells me that screen problems dependant upon temperature are usually signs of a pending hardware failure. Is it under warranty?



Yes. It's under warranty, thank goodness. I'm just scared of service techs. They don't seem to take the time do things right - always rushing to the next appointment and leaving you high and dry with another problem to replace the problem they just fixed. The theory was proposed, however, that the hot/cold issue is the aperture grill warming up. I thought that was normal, since it's advised to wait 30 minutes before making any service adjustments. And since my issue deals with a color field just barely touching a black field as it slowly tries to reach the tv edge (thus causing a green hue for 30 minutes), the image seems to fix itself by expanding once warmed up. I agree - no tv should have to do this. It's something that should be corrected. I'm just trying to figure out how it happened and what's the best way to correct the problem. I will take a break and give it another go next week.


----------



## fivestarav

Uhg. 3 posts in a row. Please don't label me a problem child. I'll try to keep the drama to myself as much as possible. I've put the aforementioned problem on the back burner and labeled my Nintendo Wii an underscaning 480p backstabbing bastard. Moving on.


I have a quick question about global settings. I've always read on this forum that global adjustments affect every resolution and input, including tv reception through rabbit ears. Yet I'm freaked out to read in the XBR970 manual under HPOS, for example, that it says for 1080 FULL the default is 15 while for OTHERS it should be 22. I thought everything under 2170D-2 was global and equal for everything. Another example is PIN. It says for 1080i PIN should be 14, while for OTHERS it should be 13, and for WIDE ZOOM it should read 22. Does this mean what I think it means? Some "global" adjustments aren't 100% global at all? And what does "Vcomp" mean when it says 1080vcomp or 480Vcomp in the manual? Thanks.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fivestarav* /forum/post/13000414
> 
> 
> ....I have a quick question about global settings. I've always read on this forum that global adjustments affect every resolution and input, including tv reception through rabbit ears. Yet I'm freaked out to read in the XBR970 manual under HPOS, for example, that it says for 1080 FULL the default is 15 while for OTHERS it should be 22. I thought everything under 2170D-2 was global and equal for everything. Another example is PIN. It says for 1080i PIN should be 14, while for OTHERS it should be 13, and for WIDE ZOOM it should read 22. Does this mean what I think it means? Some "global" adjustments aren't 100% global at all? And what does "Vcomp" mean when it says 1080vcomp or 480Vcomp in the manual? Thanks.



Global adjustments do effect all resolutions and inputs. However, many of the geometry parameters are not global as you have found out. This is why its critical that the service manual listing of the service menu parameters be referenced prior to making adjustments, instead of the misleading/incomplete spreadsheets that are available.


I believe Vcomp means video component, which applies to the component inputs.


----------



## fivestarav




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/13000890
> 
> 
> Global adjustments do effect all resolutions and inputs. However, many of the geometry parameters are not global as you have found out. This is why its critical that the service manual listing of the service menu parameters be referenced prior to making adjustments, instead of the misleading/incomplete spreadsheets that are available.
> 
> 
> I believe Vcomp means video component, which applies to the component inputs.



Ok. That makes sense. Thanks. How about the MID 2 section in the XBR970 manual? That gets really confusing to me. It divides adjustments into 7 groups. One of the groups is simply called "YC." (???) Another has 480i, 720p, and 1080i listed under a group called "expansion." What the heck does that mean?


Basically I'm hoping to do some 480p/480i size adjustments with MID2 for my component hook up, Input 5. If I understand the manual correctly, my 480i/480p MID 2 adjustments for input 5 won't affect my 480i/480p image in HDMI or tv reception, right? I found it really odd that HDMI and ATSC are "paired" up where adjustments are concerned. ATSC is the digital reception I get for tv through my rabbit ears, no? (I don't have cable).


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fivestarav* /forum/post/13011935
> 
> 
> Ok. That makes sense. Thanks. How about the MID 2 section in the XBR970 manual? That gets really confusing to me. It divides adjustments into 7 groups. One of the groups is simply called "YC." (???) Another has 480i, 720p, and 1080i listed under a group called "expansion." What the heck does that mean?......



YC usually stands for luminance/chrominance. I believe this refers to composite and S-video inputs, V1, V2, V3 and V4.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fivestarav* /forum/post/13011935
> 
> 
> .....Basically I'm hoping to do some 480p/480i size adjustments with MID2 for my component hook up, Input 5. If I understand the manual correctly, my 480i/480p MID 2 adjustments for input 5 won't affect my 480i/480p image in HDMI or tv reception, right? .....



That appears to be the case. Make sure you record your initial values. You can certainly verify this afterwards by checking values in both input cases.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fivestarav* /forum/post/13011935
> 
> 
> ..... I found it really odd that HDMI and ATSC are "paired" up where adjustments are concerned. ATSC is the digital reception I get for tv through my rabbit ears, no? (I don't have cable).



It does seem like an odd pairing. However, the signals do appear to have a common path in the set. Page 79 of my service manual has a signal flow diagram that indicates that the analog signals from the HDMI module and ATSC module are routed through a selection switch and they are handled as a single input, much like V5/V6, into the CXA2103, which is generally referred to as the Jungle IC.


----------



## PimpUigi

Hey.


I just got an XBR960, and it's kind of blurry.

I notice if I turn down picture, that the blurriness goes away.


Is there a way to make the screen sharper, without making it darker?


I know how to go into the service menu and change things, but I don't really know what to change.


----------



## PimpUigi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dazog* /forum/post/7331917
> 
> 
> When my 34xs955 goes into 4:3 on the right hand side of the screen just beside the Black bar, I have a small narrow white line that runs down the black bar, Can I remove this in the Service Menu?
> 
> 
> If so where so I can get rid of it.



I have this problem too.

Mine's on the left hand side though.


----------



## Joseph Dubin

Even though many complained about the 960's geometry, I thought mine had no problems since the convergence horizontal and vertical grid lines (retained on my DVR from the INHD test patterns) were straight. However, I noticed upper left-corner bowing on graphics used by CNN (during their primary night coverage) so I decided to give a try with the service settings anyway. Natch, it was CNN and not my set but by thinking I could remember my original settings instead of jotting them down on paper I (of course) screwed everything up.


But I came across this forum and not only corrected the problem but actually improved the picture by learning how to properly adjust the overscan without messing up geometry. Before I was barely able to see the 5% safe action line and now have it down to 2 or 3 percent, making the picture much sharper than before when it was stretched.


My sincere thanks to KenTech for starting this thread, downloading the service manual and (along with others in this forum) giving us tips on making proper service adjustments.


----------



## 2ntense

I was trying to calibrate my 960 again the other day and for some dumb ass reason I reset the tv! I'm talking F'd up. I can no longer tune my free digital cable QAM channels and the overlay display flickers like mad.










Has anyone done this before? Could someone get me chronological procedures to fix this myself? I can't even imagine what it's gonna cost to have a tech come out to get this back to normal...


I can't believe I did this, I should have just stayed with RGB cuts, gains, and gamma.


----------



## N3ILA

Here are two pictures of my XBR960 screen. How do I fix this? Please note the 480I picture was taken with no cables attached to my crt, the pattern I used is in the XBR960s service menu.
[480i] 
[1080i]


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *N3ILA* /forum/post/13363961
> 
> 
> Here are two pictures of my XBR960 screen. How do I fix this? Please note the 480I picture was taken with no cables attached to my crt, the pattern I used is in the XBR960s service menu.
> [480i]
> [1080i]



It may be edge enhancement causing it. Do you have clearedge VM turned on or off?


----------



## N3ILA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/13364143
> 
> 
> It may be edge enhancement causing it. Do you have clearedge VM turned on or off?



Clear Edge is off and sharpness is somewhere between 22 - 0 depending on picture mode.


----------



## 2ntense




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *2ntense* /forum/post/13359820
> 
> 
> I was trying to calibrate my 960 again the other day and for some dumb ass reason I reset the tv! I'm talking F'd up. I can no longer tune my free digital cable QAM channels and the overlay display flickers like mad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone done this before? Could someone get me chronological procedures to fix this myself? I can't even imagine what it's gonna cost to have a tech come out to get this back to normal...
> 
> 
> I can't believe I did this, I should have just stayed with RGB cuts, gains, and gamma.



Here is a link to the video i took of my first issue if anyone is interested. Maybe see what's going on will help.


----------



## racerx2k1




> Quote:
> I was trying to calibrate my 960 again the other day and for some dumb ass reason I reset the tv! I'm talking F'd up. I can no longer tune my free digital cable QAM channels and the overlay display flickers like mad.
> 
> 
> Has anyone done this before? Could someone get me chronological procedures to fix this myself? I can't even imagine what it's gonna cost to have a tech come out to get this back to normal...
> 
> 
> I can't believe I did this, I should have just stayed with RGB cuts, gains, and gamma.



In the CXA2171 section #2 FIXS needs to be 2 for OTA input, 3 for input 5,6 and 7. Input 1-4 is 1.


----------



## 2ntense




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *racerx2k1* /forum/post/13390732
> 
> 
> In the CXA2171 section #2 FIXS needs to be 2 for OTA input, 3 for input 5,6 and 7. Input 1-4 is 1.



Thank you, I will give it shot shortly.


----------



## 2ntense

OK, that worked! Now my issue is this:


When I'm tuned to an HD station like CBS (11.1 1080i), and have PRO mode set, the menu flickers. If I set the TV to Movie, standard, or vivid the flickering goes away and the menu is correct.


Thanks


----------



## racerx2k1

I don't know about the flicker, my TV never did that. I suggest download the manual and check the settings.


----------



## bigdaveman

Maybe someone can give me a hand with this one. I have the XBR970 hooked up via HDMI to a PS3 for Bluray, component for HD-DVD (HDA2), and component Directv HD. I watch a lot of black and white films and have noticed during darker scenes some vertical lines have a green color. Lowering the sharpness control to its minimum nearly eliminates the color but softens the picture beyond my liking.

Adjusting convergence settings in the service mode has no effect. I normally watch Bluray and HDDVD sharpness set at 50.


----------



## Vagu

Helow. I am Vagu, from Brazil. Nice to meet you, guys of the forum. Sorry, my english is not very good.

I have a Sony brazilian model TV, 4:3, called here as KV-34XBR800. I think it´s knowed as KV-32XBR800 in USA.

Three days ago, I, ignorant, reseted the VM data of my tv with 7 + 9 + Enter in the service menu, and I "destroyed" my tv.

Here, in Brazil, this model is already out of production, and there is no chance for me to find a service manual of my tv here.


I will be frankly with you, guys: I am very sad.


I used my XBR to watch tv, Ps1, Ps2, Xbox, Saturn, Dreamcast, Gamecube, Wii, VCR and DVD. It was a very important part of my life.

Im not a boy, i am a medical radiologist of 34 years old. And I missed.

If you want to help a stupid doctor, from a far country, with any hint or help... I will be very thank to all of you.


Thanks very much.


----------



## doveman

Hi Vagu. Welcome to the forums.


You might find that reading this post and the replies http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2460 helps you get your set to a usable state again but you might want to wait to see what others think first, as I'm by no means an expert.


I actually have a question but you may find it useful.


I'm thinking of buying a service manual for my XBR800 and the only place I've found so far is www.manualuniverse.com , which has a downloadable PDF of it for $17.99. I was just wondering if this is a good price and where/how much a hard copy would be?


----------



## goodrichj

When I enter the service mode on my 34XBR960 the service text is very blurry and shaky. Otherwise the TV works pretty well... no other signals show this effect.


The effect is so bad I can't read the letters and numbers..


I really hope someone here has some advice.


The text looks like it has a really bad analog signal generating it. It looks really distorted, shaky, and wavy.


PLEASE HELP


----------



## doveman

If anyone wants the service manual for the DA-4 chassis, it can be downloaded for free from: http://www.eserviceinfo.com/index.ph...tron+kv-a2523e


----------



## gbmannc

I just bought a kv 34 420 for $340. Geometry is great! But I seem to be having some trouble with gray scale. If I calibrate brightness on DVE or using a thx dvd my black levels are good but I get no shadow detail. Often just a shadowy blob where there should be detail. I guess Im refering to the gamma of the set. How do I calibrate good gamma without having bad black levels? I bumped up the gamm setting in service menu from 0 to 1, and dropped brightness a little. I think that helped a bit. Thanks in advance for any help.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gbmannc* /forum/post/13611234
> 
> 
> I just bought a kv 34 420 for $340. Geometry is great! But I seem to be having some trouble with gray scale. If I calibrate brightness on DVE or using a thx dvd my black levels are good but I get no shadow detail. Often just a shadowy blob where there should be detail. I guess Im refering to the gamma of the set. How do I calibrate good gamma without having bad black levels? I bumped up the gamm setting in service menu from 0 to 1, and dropped brightness a little. I think that helped a bit. Thanks in advance for any help.



are you sure you doing the brightness test patterns right? your supposed to lower brightness untill the blacker than black bar just blends into the black background..any more and you will crush shadow detail. GAMM should help but i find it way too bright if it's at anything above 0, it's best to leave that alone since it makes the whites way too bright and causes a similar effect of turning your contrast too high.


some settings to focus on in the service menu is SBRT and UBOF. SBRT is a global setting that is basically the main brightness control for all the inputs. UBOF is a brightness offset setting used to balance the black levels for each input.


----------



## gbmannc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/13612919
> 
> 
> are you sure you doing the brightness test patterns right? your supposed to lower brightness untill the blacker than black bar just blends into the black background..any more and you will crush shadow detail. GAMM should help but i find it way too bright if it's at anything above 0, it's best to leave that alone since it makes the whites way too bright and causes a similar effect of turning your contrast too high.
> 
> 
> some settings to focus on in the service menu is SBRT and UBOF. SBRT is a global setting that is basically the main brightness control for all the inputs. UBOF is a brightness offset setting used to balance the black levels for each input.



Thats the problem, proper calibration of brightness using a brightness test pattern results in a good looking picture but blacks get crushed. Using a grayscale pattern and calibrating to that will result in an image thats to bright and of course causing loss of good blacks, although shadow detail is resolved. I can't figure out how to properly juggle them. I set gamm back to 0 for now. What is the difference between sbrt and brightness, because I can't seem to notice a difference.


----------



## gbmannc

I've attached a good gray scale chart I've been using. When I calibrate to this, shadow detail is great, but the traditional brightness chart shows that it is too bright with gray where black should be. So does your tv make out the "ribbons" in the center bar AND show like it should on a brightness test pattern with the dark bars disappearing into the background? Because I can only have 1 or the other.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gbmannc* /forum/post/13613025
> 
> 
> I've attached a good gray scale chart I've been using. When I calibrate to this, shadow detail is great, but the traditional brightness chart shows that it is too bright with gray where black should be. So does your tv make out the "ribbons" in the center bar AND show like it should on a brightness test pattern with the dark bars disappearing into the background? Because I can only have 1 or the other.



yeah i can see the ribbons barely.onr tip i can give you is to leave BRIGHTNESS at it's default setting and adjust with SBRT untill the BTB bar just blends into the background..then check that other pattern and see if you can barely see the ribbons.


if you want you can try my settings which are perfect for black level..i have SBRT set at 25.


----------



## gbmannc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/13618485
> 
> 
> yeah i can see the ribbons barely.onr tip i can give you is to leave BRIGHTNESS at it's default setting and adjust with SBRT untill the BTB bar just blends into the background..then check that other pattern and see if you can barely see the ribbons.
> 
> 
> if you want you can try my settings which are perfect for black level..i have SBRT set at 25.



Raising sbrt and lowering brightness or doing the reverse get the same results. I have discovered that my xbox 360 requires different calibration depending on whether its outputting dvd or hd games. A quick change of brightness depending on what its doing fixes my major issues, but there still is not as much shadow detail as I think there should be in both games and dvds.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gbmannc* /forum/post/13619103
> 
> 
> Raising sbrt and lowering brightness or doing the reverse get the same results. I have discovered that my xbox 360 requires different calibration depending on whether its outputting dvd or hd games. A quick change of brightness depending on what its doing fixes my major issues, but there still is not as much shadow detail as I think there should be in both games and dvds.



so wait it's your 360 that is causing the black crush ?uh..i understand now,yeah you may have to fiddle with UBOF for that input. i used to own a 360 myself and it's pretty dark by default. At least it seems that way when viewing the 360 through component connections are dareker on my SONY 34HS420 tv. However with my PS3 using HDMI i don't seem to have any darkness issues. in fact the blacks are perfect when viewing through HDMI.


maybe it's the connections and component is darker than HDMI?


----------



## Sidetracked

Hi,


Newbie here, forgive possible dumb or repeated questions. Tried search, and scanning through the pages of the thread, with no luck. But must admit I didn't read all 70+pages!


I'm trying to make a few tweaks to my 40XBR800. Especially on DVDs, which I play up-converted to 720p through the DVI input (From Oppo 981 player). Any advice will be greatly appreciated.


First I want to reduce overscan. I've used MID1 controls (MDVS, MDVP, MDHS, MDHP). Those work but seem to effect all inputs equally, forcing me to live with a compromise -- what gives me 100% of the DVD picture is too much adjustment for the other inputs. Is there any way to just adjust input 7 (DVI?). Is there some better way to make overscan adjustments in general?


Also, when I reduce the picture so there's almost no overscan, I get a little area of bright green discoloration on the extreme left edge of the picture towards the top when there's a rich/bright color (like orange) in that area. I can eliminate it - once again - by compromising and leaving a little more overscan, but wondered if there any adjustments to solve that that worth trying.


Last, I'd like to sharpen the picture a little in the 720p through DVI mode. I took SYSM from 3 to 2 and that really helped. (I tried taking it to 1, but it gave film DVDs an odd, almost artificially grainy look). Any other adjustments I can try to sharpen that input/image?


Thanks!!!


----------



## WJonathan

These are the instructions for my XBR970, and hopefully the commands are similar for the 800.


First, adjust H Raster Center. This is a universal adjustment that should be done before the resolution specific ones.

1.Go to 2170D 2 group and set HPOS and HSIZ to 31 each, or at least until you can see the sides of the raster. Then set HCEN (or HCNT).

2.Go to MID1 and reduce overscan and center. Resize to edge of raster. This is another universal adjustment group.

3.Back to 2170D-2 and set raster back out to screen edges.

4.Go to MID2 and set your scan sizes and centering. This group is resolution and input specific, so you'll have to do it for each available resolution with each group of inputs (see you TV back for groupings).


That worked for me, though someone else probably has a better solution.


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gbmannc* /forum/post/13619103
> 
> 
> Raising sbrt and lowering brightness or doing the reverse get the same results. I have discovered that my xbox 360 requires different calibration depending on whether its outputting dvd or hd games. A quick change of brightness depending on what its doing fixes my major issues, but there still is not as much shadow detail as I think there should be in both games and dvds.



hey.. just wanted to see how you made out ??


----------



## gbmannc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/13651774
> 
> 
> hey.. just wanted to see how you made out ??



Right now I dont have another component imput to test if its my xbox causing black detail problems, I need to borrow some cables from a friend. I do think it is the tv however

Right now Im working on tweaking geometry somewhat. Also tweaking color. I've read its best to turn off certain rgb guns instead of using filters to calibrate color. How exactley do I go about doing that?


----------



## SurfingMatt27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gbmannc* /forum/post/13654637
> 
> 
> Right now I dont have another component imput to test if its my xbox causing black detail problems, I need to borrow some cables from a friend. I do think it is the tv however
> 
> Right now Im working on tweaking geometry somewhat. Also tweaking color. I've read its best to turn off certain rgb guns instead of using filters to calibrate color. How exactley do I go about doing that?



for adjusting the rgb guns to certain colors it's RGBS in the service menu. the color decoder settings are RYR-GYB..RYR-RYB are for the reds, and GYR-GYB are for the greens.


for kicks i tried adjusting The GAMM settings to see if that would help for you but found it's waaay too bright and caused blooming galore.they are better left at 0 IMO.


if you need any help or tips let me know..i used to be in your shoes once,now it seems i'm the guy giving advice.


----------



## gbmannc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SurfingMatt27* /forum/post/13656967
> 
> 
> for adjusting the rgb guns to certain colors it's RGBS in the service menu. the color decoder settings are RYR-GYB..RYR-RYB are for the reds, and GYR-GYB are for the greens.
> 
> 
> for kicks i tried adjusting The GAMM settings to see if that would help for you but found it's waaay too bright and caused blooming galore.they are better left at 0 IMO.
> 
> 
> if you need any help or tips let me know..i used to be in your shoes once,now it seems i'm the guy giving advice.



I figured out the color guns and settings myself, got them perfect according to digital video essentials, all the bars are the same color when said color gun is on.

Even with my gamm settings up (I think set to 3 on the 3 main gamma settings) I can't get blooming. No matter what I do I can't get blooming. Strange I guess... Maybe its the reason my gamma is off, because I can't get to the extreme I have nothing to compare it to to make it "normal"? I'll keep tweaking it to see what I can get.


Now Im noticing my whites have a some red in them (stupid perfectionist me...) Is there a pattern or something to get whites true? The use of clouds for calibration in the original post is far too subjective for me.


Im improving the set more and more bit by bit. Thanks for your help, not too many people interested in crts anymore.


----------



## SurfingMatt27

I can't really help you with greyscale since you need equipment to do it properly. i left mine alone myself since if i tried doing it by eye i would probably screw it up. you really need test equipment to do it properly.


As for your GAMM settings well it depends, try different material and see how it affects it..i just couldn't stand it since it's way overly bright.


fixing the color decoder is fairly easy though.. i ended up with 14-14-6-4. not exactly sure where to set color, i have it in the middle for the moment.


----------



## Vagu

Thanks, Doveman. My tv is alive again!!!!!!!!!


----------



## doveman

Glad to have been of help, Vagu. May you enjoy your TV for a long time


----------



## Joseph Dubin

Had a little panic situation yesterday which I was finally able to resolve.


Read in the service manual (under geometry) how to access the appropriate test patterns in the 960. I wanted to see if these might be better than using those stored on my DVR from the old INHD (was happy to see very slight adjustments were required for only one or two settings).


The problem? The pattern remained on the screen after exiting the service options. No special instructions in the service manual on how to exit from them, nor did Sony CS know how to do it (he just had me unplug the set for a minute). Returning the DTV/pattern to it's original "0" and entering "write" would only leave the original black screen; the pattern last used returned when turning the set back on. Would have to wait till this morning to call a special service number. Needless to say I was ready to kick myself for being so obsessive and afraid I was going to hear it from my better half for fooling around with something I shouldn't have.


Fortunately I found the remedy - remembered seeing a category for HDMI when skipping through the service settings. Found it and a sub-category (I forgot what) which enabled me to reset the input to the HDMI. Whew, will never go that route again (and surprised instructions on returning to the HDMI input were not written at the end of the geometric section of the service manual).


I know that at times I hit the 7 and 9 buttons but I either turned the set off or went to another service menu. Don't recall seeing "reset" but only "read" which tended to do nothing. After the problem was resolved, I did check my service settings (which all remained in-tact) and only had to re-adjust the user menu settings (also written down previously).


Funny thing. I keept the 960 unplugged for more almost ten minutes hoping it would do the trick. While that didn't work out, when the problem was resolved and the user settings re-set properly, I thought I saw a slightly better overall picture. Assumed this was wishful thinking on my part along with the relief that I finally got the picture back; but then I noticed pure white on the extreme top right hand corner of the 5% safety line of the overscan pattern whereas it was slightly blue before.


I know the 960 automaticly degauses when turned on. Could unplugging it for nearly ten minutes have done a better job and also provide the set with a "quick tune-up"?


Whatever, I learned my lesson and thanked my wife for not getting too upset and annoyed with me.


----------



## Sidetracked

Thank you to WJonathan for your suggestion above- this seemed to work very well. I'm at about 2% overscan all around and that looks very good (down from the 8% or so when I started).


----------



## Sidetracked

Hi all - another question -


In the very upper left hand corner of the picture on letterboxed/widescreen pictures only, I'm getting a small area of red just below the black border. (perhaps 1/4 inch thick, 3 or 4 inches long). It's there whatever the input (DVI, component) or source (tried various DVD players, cable, etc). Also, whatever the letterbox shape (1:66, 1:85, 2:35).


I tried adjusting the YBWU (Upper Ybow) control under D-CONV in the service mode, and while that lessened the red problem, it threw the rest of the picture in that area badly out of convergence. I tried (Left H Amp (offset)) and LUBW (Upper left bow), but neither seemed to have any effect at all on the problem.


Any suggestions?


Thanks!


----------



## Jerm357

Im wondering if someone can point me in the right direction. I have recently fixed my overscan as much as possible on my 30XS955 by just changing this....

- 2170D1-

VPOS from 25 to 24

VSIZ from 32 to 29


-21702-

HCNT from 38 to 42

HSIZ from 31 to 25

at 1080i resolution


Now for the most part every thing is fine and livable, but sometimes when watching a movie thats 2.35:1 aspect ratio with the right condition I can see a brighter vertical lines on the left and right of the screen thats about 1/4" wide down the sides of the screen. This is mostly visable on the top and bottom black bars. Whats weird is they are not visable all the time, like an all black scene you cant see them but if there is the right mix of mostly black with some bright spots on the screen you can see them. I will try to post a picture tonight to show what I mean. I think this is why the display had overscan to start with, to hide these abnormalities. Any ideas?


"UPDATE"

Nevermind, I fixed it by making the HSIZ wider to 29 and adjusting the MIDE 2 settings to get the same effect but with a wider raster.


----------



## Joseph Dubin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sidetracked* /forum/post/13766752
> 
> 
> Thank you to WJonathan for your suggestion above- this seemed to work very well. I'm at about 2% overscan all around and that looks very good (down from the 8% or so when I started).



Yes, the factory settings for my 960 had the overscan just barely at 5% for the top and bottom and not even that from left to right. Could not see the entire portion of many station logos nor green side of either split screen picture, Corrected it with:


HPOS - 28

HSIZ - 43

SCRL - 28

VSIZ- 25


Didn't fool around with the raster. Everything now is centered and also about 2% - anything more and either one of the upper corners begins to curve in or grey bars begin to appear on the top or bottom. Also, by reducing the screen size the picture quality is less stretched and more sharper.


----------



## Sidetracked




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sidetracked* /forum/post/13766798
> 
> 
> Hi all - another question -
> 
> 
> In the very upper left hand corner of the picture on letterboxed/widescreen pictures only, I'm getting a small area of red just below the black border. (perhaps 1/4 inch thick, 3 or 4 inches long). It's there whatever the input (DVI, component) or source (tried various DVD players, cable, etc). Also, whatever the letterbox shape (1:66, 1:85, 2:35).
> 
> 
> I tried adjusting the YBWU (Upper Ybow) control under D-CONV in the service mode, and while that lessened the red problem, it threw the rest of the picture in that area badly out of convergence. I tried (Left H Amp (offset)) and LUBW (Upper left bow), but neither seemed to have any effect at all on the problem.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



A further update, in case anyone out there can help me; I did some experimenting. Using RGBS I looked the individual color guns, and found that the red looked fine, but the blue bent down slightly in that corner. leaving a small area that should have been blue, black (the exact area where I'm having the problem). So I assume what I'm seeing isn't an excess of red, but an absence of blue. Does anyone have any ideas of how to correct this? Or is it time to call in a technician?


Thanks!


----------



## WJonathan

You mean the horizontal blue edge in the upper left is bowing downward, right?


----------



## ClayPigeon

It's a convergence error where the 3 color guns meet. I have too in my top corner ( i was able to fix it using d-conv and really fix up my convergence ten-fold over what they did at the factory. I also have it on the bottom running horizontal, and there is nothing i can do to fix that except taking off the back of my TV case and doing it manually. Most people though who have xbr970's and other Sony TV's have the same problem though. I notice mine more when watching widescreen with the black borders. i have a picture posted in the xbr970 thread that i'll link in here if i can that shows you what i mean.


----------



## ClayPigeon

Is it like this Sidetracked?


----------



## Sidetracked




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WJonathan* /forum/post/13788952
> 
> 
> You mean the horizontal blue edge in the upper left is bowing downward, right?



Yes, that's it exactly. The red goes straight across the whole top, but the blue horizontal bows downwards the last few inches.


I can't find any service menu adjustments to correct it - maybe because it's horizontal it means opening up the set and dealing with the magnets? That might be beyond my level of experience and confidence, unless it's much easier than I'd expect.


Are there any service menu changes worth trying?


----------



## Sidetracked




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ClayPigeon* /forum/post/13789069
> 
> 
> Is it like this Sidetracked?



It's a little like that, but the lack of convergence is only right along the edge of the black border on any letterboxed frame, especially 2:35 and 1:85 (less obvious on 1:66). It's not visible at all in 4:3.


Unlike your examples, when I look at test patterns there's no obvious lack of convergence on lines inside the pattern itself, only along the very top border of the frame.


And it's only visible against a light background. With dark backgrounds (like the white-on-black test patterns you're showing) it's invisible. But if I use the reverse pattern (a white background with black cross-hatches or whatever) it's very obvious -- as it is against images of a light sky or any other light background when running an actual picture.


The only control I tried that seemed to make it any better - YBWU - helps the border, but then throws everything else immediately below it off, so the images down inside the frame are then out of convergence ala your examples. I can't yet find a way to improve the border without screwing up the picture below. Maybe a control I haven't tried? Or some combination?


----------



## bobbylee

i have a kv-34hs420 and have overscan but have never noticed it before playing gta 4 which seems to have a severe problem in regards to it. I've been reading about the tv service menu but am unwilling to try to fix the overscan for fear of severely screwing up my tv ie. geometry distortion just something I'm gonna have to live with or pay a tech a few hundred dollars to have my tv proffesionaly calibrated.


----------



## timboritus

I know this thread is specifically catering to CRT displays but it is the only thread i've found that has been able to explain the service codes. Its a fantastic thread but the information is a little old and does not incorporate some of the new features found on newer models. Does anyone know of a thread that has more recent service code documents/charts for newer models and/or sony LCD displays? After 3 days of searching i haven't been able to find anything that comes close to this thread for LCD tv's.


----------



## Joseph Dubin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobbylee* /forum/post/13805307
> 
> 
> i have a kv-34hs420 and have overscan but have never noticed it before playing gta 4 which seems to have a severe problem in regards to it. I've been reading about the tv service menu but am unwilling to try to fix the overscan for fear of severely screwing up my tv ie. geometry distortion just something I'm gonna have to live with or pay a tech a few hundred dollars to have my tv proffesionaly calibrated.



The first post in this thread has the service manual with an overview on how to change the internal settings. There is a section in the manual on adjusting the geometry which I used to resolve the overscan issue on my KD34XBR960. If you have a DVD essentials. etc. with a cross-hatch pattern there should be no problem correcting the overscan and retaining proper geometry. DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A CROSS HATCH PATTERN TO REFER TO.


I was also leary about tinkering around with the service codes until I understood one could not really mess things up as long as I printed the geometry section to have in front of me and wrote down the original factory settings before making any changes (in order to return it to the way the set was first adjusted).


Although you just want to adjust the overscan, you should continue through with all the steps since size could have an effect on other geometric factors. FYI - my settings are:


HPOS 27

HSIZ 44

HTPZ 5

LANG 20

LBOW 41

LCP 45

MPIN 8

PIN 20

PPHA 21

SCRL 28

SLIN 9

UPC 35

VANG 33

VBOW 28

VCEN 17

VLIN 5

VPIN 15

VPOS 29

VSCO 7

VSIZ 25


Good luck and I'm sure everything will be OK. I'm all thumbs when it comes to anything technical and was able to do it.


----------



## bobbylee

thanks not sure its worth possibly messing up my tv just for one game company that didnt deem it necessary to take into account overscan have read other threads with people with my tv who screwed up their picture trying to change the settings/doesnt really seem a neccesity right now i didnt even notice it until gta 4 came out /didnt even know what it was called/it seems it would be easier for sony and microsoft to includer sliders in their game system menus to adjust for overscan/ played warhawk and it had the option in the video settings menu(top,bottom,right and left to adjust the picture)it was very simple and i dont see why they cant add it with a firmware update a lot of people have tv's that overscan /it seems like a very simple thing that would make a lot of people happy


----------



## Joseph Dubin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobbylee* /forum/post/13822928
> 
> 
> thanks not sure its worth possibly messing up my tv just for one game company that didnt deem it necessary to take into account overscan have read other threads with people with my tv who screwed up their picture trying to change the settings/doesnt really seem a neccesity right now i didnt even notice it until gta 4 came out /didnt even know what it was called/it seems it would be easier for sony and microsoft to includer sliders in their game system menus to adjust for overscan/ played warhawk and it had the option in the video settings menu(top,bottom,right and left to adjust the picture)it was very simple and i dont see why they cant add it with a firmware update a lot of people have tv's that overscan /it seems like a very simple thing that would make a lot of people happy



Thought I saw where some LCDS have adjustments to make the picture slightly bigger or smaller to compensate for video game overscan.


----------



## timboritus

This is a great thread for starting to understand the service menu codes but the info is a little out dated and refers to mainly CRT displays. Is there a thread like this that anyone knows about for LCD service codes or maybe something that includes more recent models? After searching for 3 days this is the only thread that comes even close to explaining info on the service codes for sony's.


----------



## drkone

I can't get my service menu changes to save.


I press MUTING, ENTER. "Write" turns red but the changes I made are lost when I cycle power.


If I press MUTING, ENTER ("write" turns red) and the press ZERO, ENTER (to read) the value reverts to the pre-changed value, proving to me that the changes didn't get stored to nvram.


Anyone else see this or have any advice?


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *drkone* /forum/post/13834247
> 
> 
> I can't get my service menu changes to save.
> 
> 
> I press MUTING, ENTER. "Write" turns red but the changes I made are lost when I cycle power.
> 
> 
> If I press MUTING, ENTER ("write" turns red) and the press ZERO, ENTER (to read) the value reverts to the pre-changed value, proving to me that the changes didn't get stored to nvram.
> 
> 
> Anyone else see this or have any advice?



Some, but very few, items can not be permanently saved. Which service menu items is this happening to? Also, you always must consider that each service menu item can have a different sphere of influence. In other words, some are global, some are input specific, some are DRC specific, while many are input resolution specific. If you are changing a menu item but rechecking it outside of its sphere of influence then this can appear like it hasn't been written into memory.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *drkone* /forum/post/13834247
> 
> 
> I can't get my service menu changes to save. I press MUTING, ENTER. "Write" turns red but the changes I made are lost when I cycle power.



Are you waiting long enough so that the red color changes back to green before doing anything else like pressing the power button? If it remains red and doesn't change back to green it's not being written... for some reason.


----------



## drkone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/13834772
> 
> 
> Some, but very few, items can not be permanently saved. Which service menu items is this happening to? Also, you always must consider that each service menu item can have a different sphere of influence. In other words, some are global, some are input specific, some are DRC specific, while many are input resolution specific. If you are changing a menu item but rechecking it outside of its sphere of influence then this can appear like it hasn't been written into memory.



I'm changing MID3 values DHHP, DHHS, DHVP, DHVS to try to see more from the PS3 at 1080i.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/13836079
> 
> 
> Are you waiting long enough so that the red color changes back to green before doing anything else like pressing the power button? If it remains red and doesn't change back to green it's not being written... for some reason.



I'm waiting until "write" turns red and then changes to a green "service."


----------



## leadfoot13us

I recently learned about this website and service codes for TVs. My problem is that once I changed the vertical and horizontal size and position so the whole picture is displayed; the "Initial Setup" screen is being displayed every time I turn the TV on. (I can just press the menu button and it goes away.) Does anyone know how/why this happened and how do I stop it from coming up? The TV is a KV30HS420.


----------



## WJonathan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *leadfoot13us* /forum/post/13852841
> 
> 
> I recently learned about this website and service codes for TVs. My problem is that once I changed the vertical and horizontal size and position so the whole picture is displayed; the "Initial Setup" screen is being displayed every time I turn the TV on. (I can just press the menu button and it goes away.) Does anyone know how/why this happened and how do I stop it from coming up? The TV is a KV30HS420.



"Initial Setup" usually comes up on the first use of a new set. If you just walk through the process it should be a one-shot deal. You didn't do any "reset" functions in the service menu, did you?


----------



## leadfoot13us

I didn't do any reset on purpose and I have walked through the process a couple of times and it still comes up. Any ideas?


----------



## bobbylee

all right i have a kv-34hs420 i want to correct the overscan how do i do it explain in detail im a novice


----------



## retrohelix

Is there any way to access service mode without a remote? I lost mine and the universal remote doesn't work. I saw some TVs have a switch, but either I'm looking in the wrong place or mine doesn't have one.


I searched the thread but found no answer to this.


----------



## semperrob

Hello all. This is my first post. I am here to say the worst has happened and I STUPIDLY reset EVERYTHING and my set's a mess. I've tried inputing the service manual numbers and the picture's horrible and only works with 480i. This all started as an moronic attempt at fixing overscan. Should have come here first. Is my only option calling a tech to get this fixed? Thanks.


----------



## bobbylee

i got into the service menu and adjusted the hsize and the vsize it was very easy just write down the factory presets so you can put it back if you screw up but it was easy couldnt get rid of the overscan completely but its alot better than it was i didnt realize how much of the picture was cut off it seems the only to have 0% overscan is to get an lcd with edge to edge pixel perfect but this will do until i can afford to get something high end i dont want to get a cheap lcd just to have one and the picture on my crt kv-34hs420 is really good /thanks ken for this thread would not have been able to do it without it


----------



## wood1

ive tried everything from unplugging the tv for hours but nothing is working i was watching tv and all the sudden it turned off the service button is staying a solid red they said it was a power issue can somebody please help the model number is kp-43T90 thanks


----------



## wood1

i need help i was watching tv and it suddenly turned off i unpluged it and it still wont come back on the red service light stays solid the whole time they said it is a power issue can someone help its a sony projection tv model number kp-43T90 thanks my email is [email protected]


----------



## featherz17




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *semperrob* /forum/post/14002314
> 
> 
> Hello all. This is my first post. I am here to say the worst has happened and I STUPIDLY reset EVERYTHING and my set's a mess. I've tried inputing the service manual numbers and the picture's horrible and only works with 480i. This all started as an moronic attempt at fixing overscan. Should have come here first. Is my only option calling a tech to get this fixed? Thanks.



I accidentally done the same thing. I hit 7+9+Enter and zap, everything was erased. I thought it would only erase the changes I had previously made, but I was wrong. I bought the service manual for the KV-34HS420 and input all the service screen numbers and it still doesn't work right. If anyone knows how to help or get it back to factory default settings please reply. I am a college student and can't afford to purchase another tv at the moment. All help and any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## Mike2567

For a complete reset, first try the obvious, which is unplug the set from the wall for a minute or two. Plug back in see if your changes got reset.

There should also be a reset in the service menu. Based on my (older) model, go into the service menu, press 8, wait 3 seconds, then press Enter.


----------



## The Deuce

Hey, guys, I just got a used 36XS955 this weekend and brought it home. The set is in like new shape, and the picture looks great. However, there is a slight geometry problem. The picture seems to "sag" a bit in the left side of the screen, most pronounced right near the edge. The screen shape looks something like this (though I'm exaggerating it a bit here):

Attachment 112622 


Not sure the cause of it. Perhaps something got bumped a little on the 4-hour ride home? Or maybe it was already there. I didn't notice when I demoed it at the seller's house, but like I said, the effect is very minor. I notice it more in widescreen (since the stripe isn't perfectly straight) or with text in the left corners of the screen (like when switching inputs). Or maybe there's just some magnetic activity somewhere at my house that wasn't present at the TV's old location. Dunno.


Anyhow, I thought I'd ask in case anybody knows: 1) What's the likely cause, and 2) is this something I can fix in the service menu, and if so, how?


----------



## fbov

I can't aim you at a specific adjustment, but rather suggest you go to page 1 and look at some of the geometric adjustments. You should find a series that starts in the middle of the screen and works it's way out to the corners, then to the sides, tweaking convergence and adjusting out the majority of geometric issues. Just note that you can't set overscan to 0 and will never get geometry perfect.

Have fun,

Frank


----------



## bobbylee

i had the same thing on my kv-34hs420 try adjusting the vcenter that seemed to correct it for me just write down the default before you start playing with it


----------



## gbmannc

On my 34hs420, my 480p image actually has better contrast and shadow detail than my 1080i image. Ive gone over the settings and don't see major changes between the 2 service menus that could account for the obvious difference. Any ideas?


----------



## lcaillo

The signal is processed differently for the two scan rates. It is not unusual to have differences. Calibrate for each rate.


----------



## Apostate

Thank goodness for AVS Forum. I have a 32" Sony KV-32HV600. It gave a beautiful picture. It even made VHS beautiful. It had some slight geometry issues. I decided to start from scratch so being a dummy, I hit that horribly magical 7, 9 combo that resets the service menu values. BIG MISTAKE! For the past week, I have been trying to get back to where I was.


I downloaded the service manual for my TV. One thing I noticed was that the resetted value in the TV and the initial values listed in the service manual differs. Anyhow, I have several problems that I need help with.


1. The resetted TV had too reddish a picture so I reduced RDRV and RCUT value. Now I have a greenish cast to the picture. The grey is greenish grey. Should I increase the RDRV and RCUT values?


2. The 1080i picture is not displaying correctly. When I input 1080i (either through both DVI and component), I only get partial picture. It looks like I only get upper left quarter of 1080i picture. Best I can put it is that the TV shows 480i portion of 1080i.


3. The focus is off. When I run Avia, instead of one line, I get one line "ringed" by a red line. This is worse in the corners. Maybe the convergence is off?


I appreciate any help you guys can offer. Thanks.


----------



## gbmannc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lcaillo* /forum/post/14104577
> 
> 
> The signal is processed differently for the two scan rates. It is not unusual to have differences. Calibrate for each rate.





But what service menu items in particular should I be looking at? Gamma settings seem to be the most obvious if your looking at fixing black crush, but the gamma settings are both the same in 480p and HD...


----------



## lcaillo

I do not recall if that set has the ability to differentially adjust gray scale by scan rate. AS for the other problems, start with the initial settings in the manual. Be sure to check the option codes for your model. When you reset the EEPROM, it may go to a generic setting for a series of sets and not your model. I do not know specifially what data they have the system default to, but it is often different than the values in the manual. Keep in mind that the values listed as initial in the manual are generic and your set will require calibration beyond that even when it was new. Now that it has aged, the difference between the values listed in the manual and calibrated values will be even more disparate.


----------



## Rylex

I just got a 34XS955 and there is a slight problem, the black level has a blue tint to it. i have tried changing 2170P-1 [7-13] with no real success, i use to have a 34HS420 with perfect blacks.. everything about my 955 is perfect imo except this blue tint.


anyone care to enlighten me on what i need to change? much appreciated.


----------



## fbov

Rylex,

As I recall, there are two settings for each color in service mode, a drive and a cut. Drive adjusts highlights, cut the shadows. Look at your settings and see if blue cut is set differently from red and green. Mine ended up almost the same for all three in an XBR 970.

Frank


----------



## Rylex

fbov,

i have changed those but it seems to unaffect the blue tint in the blacks.


these are my settings. i have tried default with them all and even messed around with them, nothing seems to help, im thinking this tv was abused? left on vivid the whole time? its still under 3y warrenty from costco from the seller i bought it from. is there any other inputs i should be looking at? thanks.

Code:


Code:


2170P-1 SBRT 27 [default 24]
         RDRV 28 [default 32]
         GDRV 21 [default 22]
         BDRV 22 [default 20]
         RCUT 32 [default 32]
         GCUT 26 [default 16]
         BCUT 28 [default 22]


----------



## HemroidSlayer

I'm new to this forum, but I believe this is a good place for this question.


I just bought a used kd-34xs955n specifically for gaming on my xbox 360 because I am not happy with input lag and response times on LCD and plasma HDTVs.


I fiddled with the normal menus to get colors and picture acceptable. But I believe I am experiencing some mild overscan problems. When I play Halo 3 I notice that I should see slightly more around the edges of the screen. I still see all of my HUD and important info, so I cannot warrant paying someone to fix this, but I am a bit of perfectionist and it just irritates me knowing I am not seeing everything.


Also, on a much less important note, when I look at writing on the sides and corners of the screen, it seems slightly blurred (at least in comparison to writing in the center of the screen), and I think that there might be a bit of a curve to lines that should be straight. I am not sure if any of this is related to the overscan or not, but I just thought I would post it as well.


Anyway, I have searched the internet extensively and it seems like my only bets are either hiring someone to calibrate my TV, or using the service menus to try to solve the issue myself. Because it is only a minor issue, and I don't really need a whole calibration I decided to try to fix this myself with the service menus. I stumbled upon this forum, read many pages of info and downloaded the charts and things, but it is all extremely daunting because I have never even heard of a service menu until now.


So I guess what I am looking for is someone to help me with a detailed yet fairly easy to follow set of instructions for how to use the service menu on my TV to fix my overscan. As stated above I have a Sony KD-34XS955N.


Thank you in advance for your help!


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rylex* /forum/post/14145324
> 
> 
> these are my settings.
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 2170P-1 SBRT 27 [default 24]
> RDRV 28 [default 32]
> GDRV 21 [default 22]
> BDRV 22 [default 20]
> RCUT 32 [default 32]
> GCUT 26 [default 16]
> BCUT 28 [default 22]



Just as an alternative, here are my 34XBR960 values (parenthetical values are service manual defaults, if other than my values), significantly different from yours:


SBRT 0-63 28 (24)

RDRV 0-63 32

GDRV 0-63 27 (22)

BDRV 0-63 27 (20)

RCUT 0-63 32

GCUT 0-63 24 (16)

BCUT 0-63 31 (22)



Don't forget the other crucial color-related settings in 2170P-4. Here are my values (other users will differ, of course), which work to my liking with color temp = COOL and color axis = DEFAULT:


RYR 0-15 13 (8)

RYB 0-15 15 (9)

GYR 0-15 5 (9)

GYB 0-15 4 (6)



NOTE: these isolated but important service menu items are not all there is to the way color looks. There's also very important user menu settings (I have PRO, color = 31, hue = 0) as well as color temp and color axis. And of course, there's your own tastes.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HemroidSlayer* /forum/post/14145732
> 
> 
> So I guess what I am looking for is someone to help me with a detailed yet fairly easy to follow set of instructions for how to use the service menu on my TV to fix my overscan. As stated above I have a Sony KD-34XS955N.



Try starting from this post .


You will have to click on the proper secondary links to retrieve posts from the archives from (a) 2005-2006, and also (b) prior to 2005.


While the final numbers you end up with will clearly depend on the characteristics of your particular set, the general "recipe/approach" described in the above posts is still applicable.



NOTE: my geometry/overscan adjustments included tweaking MID3, as had been talked about a long time back in this thread. Since then there's been a "difference of opinion" on this subject, but I still stand by the way my 34XBR960 looks and it couldn't have been done without tuning MID3.


----------



## Rylex

DSperber,

thanks for the reply, i messed around with all the settings you gave me, nothing changes it. im thinking its a defect or abuse issue.. here is a pic of what im talking about, black is not true black. my HS420 had PERFECT blacks, couldnt tell it was on when the screen was black. guess ill have to live with it. a lot better then blurry edges of my 420, and higher res.


----------



## HemroidSlayer

Thank you DSperber. I will try following that link and see where I can get!


----------



## HemroidSlayer

Thank you! That post had all the info I needed!


----------



## HemroidSlayer

Well now that I have my overscan fixed, I feel slightly addicted to this tweaking in the service menus! So, I've noticed that it seems like writing in the center of my screen is slightly clearer then writing on the sides. Is there something in the service menu I can tweak to make the sides of the screen as focused as the center? I'm not really sure what to call this problem. It is a very minor issue, so it's not the end of the world if there isn't a fix.


Once again, I have a KD-34XS955N.


Thanks!


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

Hello all, It's been a while since I've been here.

I've been trying to get the output from my HTPC to my 34xs955 calibrated and have run into a problem.


I'm currently running my ATI HD3870 via DVI>HDMI to Input 7 (HDMI) of the set. Using Blu-ray discs from the LG combo drive through Powerdvd 7 Ultra my black levels seem completely crushed. A check of Dr. 1394's HD Test Patterns shows my black information stops before the last 15% of the scale (4 ramps and 2IRE bars missing). I should add that my HD-A! through the same input does the same thing now.


I can understand PC levels but it seems to be passing the white information fine. Made the mistake of referencing some old Word doc concerning settings for HDMI setting without writing my current settings down!


The menus I made changes in were: 3d-comb, 2103-1, 2170P-1 (except drive and cut settings), 2170P-2 and ENHA.


No matter what ammount of GAMMA or SBRT or UBOF I fiddle with I can't see any black info below a certain range. Is this a shortcomming of the 10-bit HDMI in thses sets or am I missing an important setting in the SM, Catalyst Control Panel or Powerdvd?


Very frustrated right now...


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein

*UPDATE*


Appears that the HDMI input is the culprit. I ran the HD-A1 over component (Input 5) and no problems. Compared settings from Input 5 (3d-comb, 2103-1, 2170P-1 and 2170P-2) and they were nearly identical. Even attmpted to adjust the settings that didn't match, nothing made the black info reappear.


Anyone familliar with Avia, the HDMI input won't even show the moving black bars in the (Bars and Half-grey pattern)!


Is anyone aware of any HDMI specific settings that MIGHT need to be corrected? As it stands it looks like I'm down to 2 component inputs or the prospect of replacing the HDMI board.


Any suggestions for quality component switchers (on the cheap) so I can manage my 4 source devices?


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr. Spankenstein* /forum/post/14179405
> 
> 
> *UPDATE*
> 
> 
> Appears that the HDMI input is the culprit. I ran the HD-A1 over component (Input 5) and no problems. Compared settings from Input 5 (3d-comb, 2103-1, 2170P-1 and 2170P-2) and they were nearly identical. Even attmpted to adjust the settings that didn't match, nothing made the black info reappear.
> 
> 
> Anyone familliar with Avia, the HDMI input won't even show the moving black bars in the (Bars and Half-grey pattern)!
> 
> 
> Is anyone aware of any HDMI specific settings that MIGHT need to be corrected? As it stands it looks like I'm down to 2 component inputs or the prospect of replacing the HDMI board.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions for quality component switchers (on the cheap) so I can manage my 4 source devices?



On the HD-A1, make sure your "Enhanced Black Level" is set to "OFF" If you are still not seeing the black detail, increase "Brightness" to verify it is not in the signal. Some players/displays will not display the Below black bars from AVIA/DVE.


----------



## kobes

forgive me guys if this has been covered but i'm going batty. from what i gather reading over all of this info is that my problem can only be fixed by magnets. i'm setting up the geometry on my 34xs955 and i'm running into an issue. the horizontal lines on the right side of the screen are bowing up a bit...probably the last two inches or so. it kind of looks like this only with the upswing being a lot less severe:

__________________/

__________________/

__________________/

__________________/


is there a service menu fix for this or is it magnet time? oh, and a big thanks to all of your guys hard work....the amount of info in here is amazing.


----------



## Dr. Spankenstein




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/14185043
> 
> 
> On the HD-A1, make sure your "Enhanced Black Level" is set to "OFF" If you are still not seeing the black detail, increase "Brightness" to verify it is not in the signal. Some players/displays will not display the Below black bars from AVIA/DVE.




Glen,


Thanks for the response!


Yes, I have all that "crap" turned off.







I am aware (and o.k. with the fact) that the HD-A1 does not pass BTB via HDMI. The part that made me think it was the HDMI input was the fact that both my HTPC and the HD-A1 were showing the loss of black detail to the same degree.


Turning the "Brightness" up shows just how little of the black info is getting though. Huge swaths of the picture are just gone. I guesstimated from how many bars were missing in a 10 IRE pattern that the last 25%+ was missing.


Anyone know where a feller could purchase the board for this set? Part number?


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kobes* /forum/post/14193901
> 
> 
> forgive me guys if this has been covered but i'm going batty. from what i gather reading over all of this info is that my problem can only be fixed by magnets. i'm setting up the geometry on my 34xs955 and i'm running into an issue. the horizontal lines on the right side of the screen are bowing up a bit...probably the last two inches or so. it kind of looks like this only with the upswing being a lot less severe:
> 
> __________________/
> 
> __________________/
> 
> __________________/
> 
> __________________/
> 
> 
> is there a service menu fix for this or is it magnet time? oh, and a big thanks to all of your guys hard work....the amount of info in here is amazing.



Any chance you've been adjusting overscan?


Adjust it out and the edge of the picture is crap, and the only way to remove it is overscan. On mine, the edge of image looks like your diagram. It's part of the CRT world - that was the entire world until relatively recently you'll recall.


There are also a full range of geometry adjustments that may allow you to adjust it out. They'll also tell you what needs magnets. Look for the 955 service manual, not just service codes, on page 1's master list. Also look at focus and convergence, pages 10-15. Page 1 has specific links.


Have fun,

Frank


----------



## alowdownshame

I need some serious help here


I have 30" Sony KV-30HS510 and i have it hooked up to my PS3 through HDMI/DVI at 1080i. I had been looking into service mode mods off and on over the years and only within the last 5 or so hours have I found enough information on the subject to actually get into the service mode.


The problem is this, after getting the overscan at 1080i exactly where I wanted it. I wrote it to memory and everything was perfect until I tried to use the "Copy" function explained at 4-1.18 in the "official help.pdf" found within the service mode help zip file.


After attempting to use the "copy" function (which in hindsight I must not have understood cause it certainly didn't do what I expected and right now I don't know what it does) my DVI connection froze for lack of better word at first I thought my ps3 had froze but nothing i did on its side changed the image I was seeing. I figured that I could reset the NVM data to fix it so i cleared mid and/or system NVM to see if that would fix any thing sadly it didn't. The service mode setting were a complete mess but using the service data pdfs I was able to fix the 1080i vertical and horrizontal settings but the HD connections on my TV don't do anything but display a random screen grab from channel 2(switching from an HD input to anoter input just refreshes the screen grab)


One thing that I did notice was right before the DVI died I saw something other than Service/Write/Read in the area where "SERVICE" normally is it was brief though I think it started with "IN" if I get the service mode to display that again and took note of it would that help you guys figure out what I did and how to fix it? Cause I need options when I go to sleep I'm going to unplug my tv and see if that clears up the issue with the HD input.



Note: While my PS3 is hooked up, on and in xmb or playing a video my TV in service mode says its getting a 1080i signal to bad my tv just wont display it.


*Also under every entry in the "ID" Data section is:


"M306V7MG-050FP

NVM: G"


Does that give anyone any ideas?


----------



## alowdownshame




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alowdownshame* /forum/post/14376244
> 
> 
> One thing that I did notice was right before the DVI died I saw something other than Service/Write/Read in the area where "SERVICE" normally is it was brief though I think it started with "IN" if I get the service mode to display that again and took note of it would that help you guys figure out what I did and how to fix it? Cause I need options when I go to sleep I'm going to unplug my tv and see if that clears up the issue with the HD input.
> 
> 
> 
> Note: While my PS3 is hooked up, on and in xmb or playing a video my TV in service mode says its getting a 1080i signal to bad my tv just wont display it.
> 
> 
> *Also under every entry in the "ID" Data section is:
> 
> 
> "M306V7MG-050FP
> 
> NVM: G"
> 
> 
> Does that give anyone any ideas?



ok I know what preceeded the DVI going bust, it was my accidental clearing of mid nvm data(7-jump-enter) which causes "INIT-MID" to appear in place of SERVICE" for a moment now does anyone have any idea on how to repair/initialize the HD function of the TV. Other than that everything works fine.


----------



## bob ross

I think i'm in trouble. I have a Sony KP-57WS520. I reset the service menu setting by accident and now my Flash Focus and Convergence will not work from the regular TV OSD.


Also now video 5 is HDMI, it used to be Video 7 like the back of the TV is labeled.



I need help badly please. Since I can't use convergence for some reason now, I can't fix my picture correctly


----------



## bob ross

Well I got the HDMI & mostly everything else back to normal. I can't figure out how to get "Flash Focus" or convergence working again.. The screen blinks like it's trying to do something but nothing happens.


I see the Convergence overlay but not the crosses pattern at all, really odd. Flash focus just makes the screen blink and does nothing. HELP!


----------



## alowdownshame




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bob ross* /forum/post/14381754
> 
> 
> I think i'm in trouble. I have a Sony KP-57WS520. I reset the service menu setting by accident and now my Flash Focus and Convergence will not work from the regular TV OSD.
> 
> 
> Also now video 5 is HDMI, it used to be Video 7 like the back of the TV is labeled.
> 
> 
> 
> I need help badly please. Since I can't use convergence for some reason now, I can't fix my picture correctly



convergence and many of the OSD menu options are controllable in the ID string try messing around with ID7 in the service menu until you see convergence in the OSD



Now if someone could help me resynch hd on my KV30-HS510



Edit: Service Manual for KP57WS520 again I suggest skipping to the ID section and make sure you have the right settings
http://cheetatron.tripod.com/KP57WS520manual.rar


----------



## bob ross




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alowdownshame* /forum/post/14392960
> 
> 
> convergence and many of the OSD menu options are controllable in the ID string try messing around with ID7 in the service menu until you see convergence in the OSD
> 
> 
> 
> Now if someone could help me resynch hd on my KV30-HS510



I can see Convergence and Flash Focus on the menu but why try to use them, they do nothing. No patterns.


----------



## alowdownshame




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bob ross* /forum/post/14395031
> 
> 
> I can see Convergence and Flash Focus on the menu but why try to use them, they do nothing. No patterns.



Service Manual for KP57WS520 again I suggest skipping to the ID section and make sure you have the right settings
http://cheetatron.tripod.com/KP57WS520manual.rar 


as for me I have found the service manual for my tv but I am confused as to how I should configure my mid 5 settings its just a table of numbers that don't seem to make munch sense


edit: I now understand how mid 5 configuration works. (Choose a pop setting # 0-56 than configure everything from 1-18 rinse and repeat)I would however love it if someone with experience in restoring a tv after nvm reset could tell me if proper configuration of the mid 5 will allow me to restore my tv's hd connections


----------



## bob ross




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alowdownshame* /forum/post/14395123
> 
> 
> Service Manual for KP57WS520 again I suggest skipping to the ID section and make sure you have the right settings
> http://cheetatron.tripod.com/KP57WS520manual.rar
> 
> 
> as for me I have found the service manual for my tv but I am confused as to how I should configure my mid 5 settings its just a table of numbers that don't seem to make munch sense
> 
> 
> edit: I now understand how mid 5 configuration works. (Choose a pop setting # 0-56 than configure everything from 1-18 rinse and repeat)I would however love it if someone with experience in restoring a tv after nvm reset could tell me if proper configuration of the mid 5 will allow me to restore my tv's hd connections










Freaking awesome! I cannot begin to thank you enough for posting that link!










*bows*


----------



## alowdownshame




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bob ross* /forum/post/14395596
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Freaking awesome! I cannot begin to thank you enough for posting theat link!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *bows*



Hey I hope it helps you out man. In order to find the service manual for my tv I had to register and subscribe to nodevice.com.



I have a month long subscription so if anyone has a user or service manual they need request it now and if the manual helps you out a small donation to my paypal won't hurt.


----------



## alowdownshame

There are somethings I could use clarification on. In the various service menu guides terms like VDO, CV/YC come up what are they refering to exactly?


also what about Vcomp? I usually see it as a setting where FULL is also an option so I imagine Vcomp is for twinview, index, and freeze is that correct?


----------



## bob ross

Hmm strange still no fix for my focus/convergence problems.


According to the service manual after service item "DDEV" I should have PJED FDIS, PJED V1CM, PJED OTVS, etc.. but my menu jump straight to item "AP"



I seem to be missing a bunch of stuff. I can't get to "PJE" Mode


----------



## alowdownshame




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bob ross* /forum/post/14397948
> 
> 
> Hmm strange still no fix for my focus/convergence problems.
> 
> 
> According to the service manual after service item "DDEV" I should have PJED FDIS, PJED V1CM, PJED OTVS, etc.. but my menu jump straight to item "AP"
> 
> 
> 
> I seem to be missing a bunch of stuff. I can get to "PJE" Mode



Sorry to hear that the service manual i posted covers 4 or so models maybe your model just doesn't have those items



Woot I finally got 1080i DVI working but all is not working correctly sadly. if I hit tv/video until i get to vid 7(dvi) while id7 is set to 17 I get horrible overscan it is so bad that I cant see the top line of text in the service menu(Everything on the same line as "Service") I have to get off vid 7 go to id 7 change it to an even number go to vid 7 than change id 7 back to 17


any Ideas?


Update I got rid of the horrible overscan somehow(????) Now I am trying to resynch 720p and 480p. Does anyone know why my Mid3 changes don't appear to do anything? the definetly had an effect before I reset my nvm last saturday.


----------



## alowdownshame

in trying to get 720p back I ended up breaking 1080i again lol that was yesterday and now I'm still working on that today. Any ideas/tips?


----------



## Joseph Dubin

Suddenly noticed a quarter-inch horizontal overlap of the picture on the right side of the screen when watching non-HD material in the zoom and wide zoom modes via the HDMI. Unplugged the 960 for about five minutes but the distortion was still there. Hoped it was due to the cable company but adjusting the service mode horizontal position further right accomplished nothing. Was able to eliminate it by increasing the horizontal size by one digit (made it two just to play it safe).


Decreasing the horizontal size further toward zero (shrinking the picture) increased the overlap proportionatly.


Is this an indication that a problem could be brewing or could a slight overlap naturally develop over time necesistating an adjustment in horizontal size? Also, is there a service code that could simply eliminate overlap in the NON-HD zoom modes? Again, no overlapping appeared in full-screen HD HDMI (or component video from the DVD player in video 5).


FYI - when adjusting geomirty in the past I don't believe I ever noticed an overlap of the picture - just too much shrinkage left and right.


Thanks in advance for any help that could be provided.


- Joe


----------



## Juppers

I must have fat fingered something while in the service menu of my KP-57WS520 and now the vsync/hsync is all messed up. I reset all the values I was changing to what they were before but it didn't fix it. The service manual doesn't have a complete list of the default values, it points you to a web link that is dead. I only wrote down the values that I was changing, not everything in there, so I'm SOL at this point. Does anyone have a complete list of the default values for this set or a magic way to reset it?


----------



## vazel

Does anyone else with a 30HS420 have a green tint to the black on the composite/s-video inputs? It's only on those inputs. The channels without any signal running with just the black screen you can clearly see this. Then when I switch to the component/hdmi inputs the difference is dramatic.


----------



## BrianAZ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Juppers* /forum/post/14590453
> 
> 
> I must have fat fingered something while in the service menu of my KP-57WS520 and now the vsync/hsync is all messed up. I reset all the values I was changing to what they were before but it didn't fix it. The service manual doesn't have a complete list of the default values, it points you to a web link that is dead. I only wrote down the values that I was changing, not everything in there, so I'm SOL at this point. Does anyone have a complete list of the default values for this set or a magic way to reset it?



I have this set and could potentially look up some key values for you. I don't know about ALL of them, but I wouldn't mind pulling some more critical ones. It would be easier if you told me what your values were and I could point out the differences.


Do you know if there's a way to lock Video 7 to 1080i? I have an issue where *very* bright scenes (like the military base scene at the beginning of Transformers with all the explosions) causes it to lose signal sync for 1-2 seconds. This only happens when the screne goes completely white. I've read that the true fix is to replace the A board.. which I'm not qualified to do and don't want to pay someone for. A workaround I've heard of on other Sonys is to force your video input to 1080i. I looked for the "1080" setting in the OP category but I could not find it. Perhaps there's no way to do this with this TV? I don't have the service manual.. so I can't check.


----------



## JimPV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/8025344
> 
> 
> Has anyone figured out if there is a way to decrease the amount of screen real estate taken up by the "side bars" when viewing 4x3 programming in "normal" screen mode on 16x9 DA-4 chassis sets(such as XBR960)?
> 
> 
> I've been searching, but can't seem to find anything which will do what I want. I don't want to alter Horizontal size of the image in the 4x3 "area" which is displayed, I want to "get rid" of a portion of the "inside portion" of the side bars, which is in effect, "hiding" more than I want on the sides .... In other words, to effectively "unhide" a portion of the image which is being hidden by the "side bars".





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/8036820
> 
> 
> Note that for 1080i and other 16:9 display, the video material is technically not letterboxed; that is, no black bars are added to the video (using up scan lines). Rather, the entire vertical scan is compressed to the correct aspect ratio for 16:9, and all scan llines are really there, just as they would be on a widescreen TV. You can prove the point by cranking up the Brightness slider and noting that those "bars" above and below never glow because there's no scanning there..
> 
> 
> You can use the blanking shutters in 2170D-3, TBLK and BBLK to crop the 16:9 compressed raster as you wish. There are separate settings for 480 and 1080, and for compressed and full scan, so you should be able to customize it as you wish. The main reason for these "shutters" is to keep the electron beam from striking the side of the CRT, but *in compressed mode the top and bottom shutters can act as a cropping tool.*



Pertaining to this exchange from July of '06, I want to decrease the cropping of my top and bottom "shutters" when watching anamorphic DVDs on my (4:3) 36HS420. I assume that the shutters are factory set to mask the image at the 1.78:1 HD ratio, and that if I watch an anamorphic 1.66:1 DVD (such as the first two Bond films or the new *7th Voyage of Sinbad* disc) that the shutters would be cutting off image information. Anybody steer me toward the right adjustment to open up these shutters?


EDIT: Sho' nuff, as KenTech said, I was able to adjust the blanking shutters in 2170D-3, using TBLK and BBLK. Opened up the screen to the entire 1.66:1 image. Perfecto! Much thanks.


----------



## crtrearprojectn

Hello,


I recently purchased a used 30sx955.


I've been trying to adjust the 1080i overscan using the method outlined in this thread, but when I get to the mid3 adjustments, my mid3 menu options appear different than what is described.


Any ideas?


----------



## Fizzboom

I am new to this forum and have searched for an explaination and fix to a problem I have on a blue screen with a red blotch in the upper left corner and a green blotch at center right side. I have read elsewhere that this may be an artifact of the earth's magnetic field and may require periodic service menu adjustments to correct.


I have had the KD-34XBR960 for two years and the blotches do not change in position. The blotches can be eliminated with magnets attached near the neck of the tube but this also creates image distortion problems. I have removed the speakers and it does not change the blotches.


Does anyone there know where to point me for resolution of the problem?


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fizzboom* /forum/post/15001015
> 
> 
> I am new to this forum and have searched for an explaination and fix to a problem I have on a blue screen with a red blotch in the upper left corner and a green blotch at center right side. I have read elsewhere that this may be an artifact of the earth's magnetic field and may require periodic service menu adjustments to correct.
> 
> 
> I have had the KD-34XBR960 for two years and the blotches do not change in position. The blotches can be eliminated with magnets attached near the neck of the tube but this also creates image distortion problems. I have removed the speakers and it does not change the blotches.
> 
> 
> Does anyone there know where to point me for resolution of the problem?



Try the LANDING adjustments in the service menu. Write down the values before you start and DO NOT attempt a reset of ANY kind.


Good Luck


----------



## NeverBX

I just picked up a sony KV-27FS120 for only $50 and 3 years old and it's great.


I am having a problem with something though. I play arcade games via an RGB>NTSC converter using an s-video or component connection. The problem us that on some game boards the v sync is either above or below the TV's 60hz setting by more than 4, so I get about 3/4 of the screen and the bottom 1/4th of the screen is at the very top.


I downloaded the service manual and dont know which setting would be best to delay the v sync pulse enough to get the picture right. I have tried the obvious one to no avail.


----------



## Fizzboom

I went through adjustment of Landing Parameters LT thru ENSW and was able to eliminate the color blotches. As follows, old values w/ parenthesis indicating new values: LT 192(14), LB 131(102), RT 150(110), RB 119(9), EWSP 5(5), ENSW 0(0). I had to use a blue screen because I could not see the blotching on a grey screen.


I started by removing all taped on magnets which appear to have been distorting the image. My focus does not appear to be as good as it was and I have lost some image brightness. I will work on these items.


This is the first time I ever changed the service codes, so, I will need to start this process in a logical order. Should I start at the beginning of this forum? Where can I find solid color screens for use with the memory stick?


Thanks for the help so far!


----------



## WJonathan

Those values range from 0-270, right? It's disturbing to me that you had to almost zero out the LT and RB values to make it acceptable. I wonder if the tube itself just needs replacement...


----------



## Fizzboom

I found the first 11 landing adjustments to have very little effect and trying to decide where to leave them was not easily determined. Is it possible that some other parameter is way out of adjustment and making the landing settings futile. I did not touch any of the remaining landing settings.


My set is still under warranty. I had a sony repairman come before I started making changes. He used magnets to try to eliminate the blotching without complete success. The result was distortion of the geometry. I removed the magnets afterward and the geometry is pretty good except for some outward bending at the upper corners which also shows some color divergence.


----------



## ClayPigeon

I have some color blobs on the right side of my set and you are lucky, cause no matter what i set my landing settings at NOTHING gets rid of them. Plus it's hard to even adjust them with a background to try and get rid of them without my eyes adjusting and thinking that it's getting better/worse. Can't be from my speakers either since it would have to happen on the other side as well. But it has to be from something external and not the se then since it's not changing with the landing settings.


----------



## Fizzboom

Continuing to explore the service menu on my KD-34XBR960, I decided to see what was in the overscan area of my set and I adjusted the horizontal and vertical sizing, stretch, and shutter parameters so I could see the entire crosshatch pattern. I have included here jpg's of the adjusted geometry where I cannot see the perimeter lines of the crosshatch (image1) and the image where I can see the entire perimeter (image2), almost.


I was surprised to see such distortion in the overscan area, although it explains some to the extreme geometry adjustments I am having to make. First, note the clipping in the upper left corner. It is not due to the curving of the left vertical but due to a hard to see here bending of the scanned image inward away from the left corner that blanks off the image. What is causing this and how do I correct it? Second, note the inward bowing of the right vertical. With some adjustments the far right vertical will actually fold over the second right vertical. How can I straighten this line out?


I want to correct these faults before adjusting convergence because they are interfering with the convergence adjustments. My adjusted geometry doesn't look to bad but I am having to use shutter adjustments to cut off too much of the image and although it is not easily seen in these images the horizontal convergence needs adjustment at the upper left and right areas (center is ok).


I originally removed all of the permalloy magnets installed by the Sony technician because they caused some pretty severe distortion which he said he could not correct. I have played with reattachment of the magnets but cannot correct the convergence issues. If I can improve the distortion in the overscan area, it would help a lot in making it possible to correct the convergence.


It's also kind of interesting that the upper left corner and center right distortions of the crosshatch pattern are the locations of the color blotching that I adjusted out with the landing parameters!


----------



## jdre

I have no knowledge of those bizarre distortions, maybe they are supposed to hide? PPHA will straighten the inward tilt, PIN will straighten curvature inward of sides, VPIN and VCEN are needed too. VPIN to lower number may help. Do you have the Service Manual for your set, maybe I can upload it somehow (large file) if you need it.


----------



## Fizzboom

I think that the distortions on the right side are due to the beam striking the side of the tube and then folding the line over the existing image. I can shift the image to the left to reduce the effect but I then loose even more of the image in the left corner. There is a limit edge of the scan that can be seen around the outside edge of the image (when looking close-up). This shape of this limit edge is not effected by any of the service codes I have checked in 2170D-1, 2170D-2, or 2170D-3. It remains fixed even when the crosshatch pattern geometry is changed. This is probably determined by the gun alignment adjustments at the yoke of the tube. Using the shutters and resizing the image can hide the problem but it still needs to be fixed.


Does anyone have knowledge about the topic I am discussing here? This goes beyond service code adjustments if I am right.


Also, I would appreciate it if someone can point me to a copy of the service manual for the KD-34XBR960.


----------



## Fizzboom

I have been using this forum to address service code issues with my KD-34XBR960 but I noticed that there is a separate thread for the KD-34XBR960. Does it matter where I post to?


Also, note that regarding my last message I have not yet tried adjusting the 2170D-3 parameters #6 thru #10.


----------



## jdre

Here is where to get a schematic, it is right at the top of the list








http://www.schematicsforfree.com/archive/dir/Sony/Video


----------



## amazin

I sent this question to Kentech but maybe someone else can help me out.


-------------------------


Somehow I have lost the ability to change the color axis in the regular TV menu. When I change it from monitor to default I no longer get any change or rather "red push."


To be honest I never really use it but it drives me crazy to know that I have changed a setting or something else has happened that I am not aware of that doesn't allow this setting to be changed.


I have been in the service menu many times and have my color settings set up correctly with the RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB(8,9,9,6).


When in the service menu or regular menu when I change the setting to default these values, RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB(8,9,9,6), do not change as they use to and my question is do you know of a setting in the service menu that acts as a on(1) and off(0) switch for the special color axis?


----------



## conductor

I have an KD-34XS955 and I have recently switched everything over to the HDMI input. I have noticed that the picture using the HDMI input is slightly to the right of the screen. All other inputs are more centered, but the HDMI is off a little bit. If i adjust the 2170D-1 adjustments that will change the position for all inputs, right? Should I make these adjustments in MID2? I also remember reading some time ago that adjusting VSIZ or HSIZ (can't remember which) can screw the overall picture up, is that true? Thanks for any help.


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amazin* /forum/post/15087787
> 
> 
> I sent this question to Kentech but maybe someone else can help me out.
> 
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> 
> Somehow I have lost the ability to change the color axis in the regular TV menu. When I change it from monitor to default I no longer get any change or rather "red push."
> 
> 
> I have been in the service menu many times and have my color settings set up correctly with the RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB(8,9,9,6).



I assume you're also in "PRO".


Anyway, 8,9,9,6 are the Sony defaults (for the XBR960, anyway). They cause the "red push"... not resolve it.


Most people have changed these values (with slight differences among them), but they also depend on your settings for color axis, color temp, color/hue in the user menu, etc., in terms of what is the "recommended" set of values to use other than these defaults.


My own are 13,15,5,4, which go with PRO, color axis = default, color temp=cool, color=31, hue=0:


VITAL » 7 RYR 0-15 13 (8)

VITAL » 8 RYB 0-15 15 (9)

VITAL » 9 GYR 0-15 5 (9)

VITAL » 10 GYB 0-15 4 (6)


----------



## amazin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/15089368
> 
> 
> I assume you're also in "PRO".
> 
> 
> Anyway, 8,9,9,6 are the Sony defaults (for the XBR960, anyway). They cause the "red push"... not resolve it.
> 
> 
> Most people have changed these values (with slight differences among them), but they also depend on your settings for color axis, color temp, color/hue in the user menu, etc., in terms of what is the "recommended" set of values to use other than these defaults.
> 
> 
> My own are 13,15,5,4, which go with PRO, color axis = default, color temp=cool, color=31, hue=0:
> 
> 
> VITAL » 7 RYR 0-15 13 (8)
> 
> VITAL » 8 RYB 0-15 15 (9)
> 
> VITAL » 9 GYR 0-15 5 (9)
> 
> VITAL » 10 GYB 0-15 4 (6)




Yes I apologize. I just figured this out on my own that the numbers I put in were the same as the "special axis color"(default) therefore there would be no change. Too much tweaking on my part and not willing to leave well enough alone. I do like the look with these settings but I have gone back to RYR 14, RYB 14, GYR 6, and GYB 4 for the "monitor" color setting, I use these with the warm temp for movies and everday use but I have to admit I do like the other settings better for some games but I was using the neutral temp as I didn't really see a difference from the cool temp.


Thanks for your help anyways.


----------



## ziimen

I've a 34" KV-HS420, 3 years old. Maybe it's time to upgrade if anything size wise.... but picture has been great on this "old" crt.


I adjusted the geometry on hdmi the other day, since I started using my laptop as a media center.


The geometry turned out very well (2170D etc.) but there's one little thing that I wonder if it can be helped. When displaying a crosshatch pattern, white lines on the black background - verticals and horizontals, all the horizontal ones are good but vertical ones aren't the best. Lines are thin enough. Verticals would, going from one side to the other, start as white then slowly turn greenish then slowly go back to white then back to greenish and then white. Kind of a wave white-green-white-green-white pattern if you know what I mean.


Off hand, could anyone suggest a service menu group/parameters to adjust to get this right. Is it a focus problem? Or a color setting?


Mind you, this is not a huge issue, could just be a CRT inherent problem. Whites are otherwise displayed nicely on the greater-than-a-thin-vertical-line white areas.


Thanks!


----------



## SomeDouche

Guys, excellent thread, used the service menu to fix all the overscan and other issues i had with the TV. Only 1 single issue remains. The left side of the display, id say the left 4-5" or so, is blurry and out of focus compared to the rest of the display. Is there anything i can do in the service menu to fix it? TV is a KV-34HS510 btw.


----------



## ziimen

@SomeD

Try checking the very first page of this thread, with the ToC, look for focus references. Otherwise, here's several direct links to relevant posts with instructions and patterns.


Dynamic Focus

http: // www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5497529&post5497529 

Patterns

http: // www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5522658&post5522658 

http: // www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5648357&post5648357 


Good luck!


----------



## SomeDouche




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ziimen* /forum/post/15228657
> 
> 
> @SomeD
> 
> Try checking the very first page of this thread, with the ToC, look for focus references. Otherwise, here's several direct links to relevant posts with instructions and patterns.
> 
> 
> Dynamic Focus
> 
> http: // www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5497529&post5497529
> 
> Patterns
> 
> http: // www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5522658&post5522658
> 
> http: // www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5648357&post5648357
> 
> 
> Good luck!



Thanks for the tips! I tried all of those settings, but nothing really changed, it got a TAD sharper but its still really out of focus compared to the rest of the picture. Perhaps i should mention i am running 720p into the DVI port if that matters?


----------



## fahrenheit

I'm having some trouble with my HR36 (European equivalent to the XBR910).


The problem relates to 720p at 50Hz, so I'm not sure how much help you wise 60Hz-landers will be, but here goes...


720p60 signals display perfectly, but as soon as I playback a 720p50 signal, the TV switches to 480i and the picture loses vsync and shows static noise.

1080i (fortunately) is perfect at 50Hz as is 576i/p.


I'm not sure where to start with troubleshooting this because I can't work in 720p50 mode to do any adjusting (since the TV defaults to 480i as soon as 720p50 content is played).


I will look at uploading a video demonstration if it makes things easier.

Any suggestions on where to start looking would be much appreciated.


----------



## JimPV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/15248864
> 
> 
> I'm having some trouble with my HR36 (European equivalent to the XBR910).
> 
> 
> The problem relates to 720p at 50Hz, so I'm not sure how much help you wise 60Hz-landers will be, but here goes...
> 
> 
> 720p60 signals display perfectly, but as soon as I playback a 720p50 signal, the TV switches to 480i and the picture loses vsync and shows static noise.
> 
> 1080i (fortunately) is perfect at 50Hz as is 576i/p.



CRTs can't do 720p (at least mine can't -







). Right?


----------



## fahrenheit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimPV* /forum/post/15299585
> 
> 
> CRTs can't do 720p (at least mine can't -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). Right?



Technically no, but I don't want to turn this into a debate about that.

The Sony CRT's are capable of accepting a 720p signal.


----------



## JimPV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/15299647
> 
> 
> The Sony CRT's are capable of accepting a 720p signal.



Hmm, did not know that. As a novice (and I'm genuinely curious, not being a smart-aleck), why would you want to output a 720p signal to it?


----------



## KyoDash

In the UK the Samsung SlimFit 409 and 419 can scan 720p natively. They do 480p/720p and 1080i native. You can tell 720p is native due to the lack of flicker in the display and the similar look it has to 480p in terms of solidness. Horizontal test pattern shows no interlacing.


I believe that one of the US sets also did this, the Second from last SlimFit released I believe.


----------



## fahrenheit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimPV* /forum/post/15301604
> 
> 
> Hmm, did not know that. As a novice (and I'm genuinely curious, not being a smart-aleck), why would you want to output a 720p signal to it?



For gaming and the preservation of framerate.


1080i can only resolve 30 whole frames per second (or 25 for 1080i 50Hz). This means that a game that runs natively at 720p 60fps needs to be truncated if it is output by the console to 1080i.

If your display doesn't accept a 720p signal, or changes a 720p signal to 1080i, then this point is moot. However, if your display (like my Sony) changes 720p to 540p, then framerate is preserved at the cost of resolution.


Same thing applies to TV broadcasts. In New Zealand we have broadcasters using 720p and others using 1080i. I currently have to tell my set top box to output 1080i (since 720p 50Hz results in rolling static). This of course means that sports events broadcast at 50fps are going to be signifcantly marginalised. I'd rather set the STB to pass-thru so that it can let my TV do the scaling.


----------



## fahrenheit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KyoDash* /forum/post/15303813
> 
> 
> In the UK the Samsung SlimFit 409 and 419 can scan 720p natively. They do 480p/720p and 1080i native. You can tell 720p is native due to the lack of flicker in the display and the similar look it has to 480p in terms of solidness. Horizontal test pattern shows no interlacing.



No it does not do 720p natively. Infact the Slimfits can't even resolve anywhere near 1080i.

Sony's _Super Fine Pitch_ tubes are the closest consumer level HD CRTs to 1080i on the market (well the second hand market now).


Like my Sony, you are seeing a progressive image with a 720p signal (540p resolved), but you aren't acknowledging the step-down in resolution.


----------



## JimPV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/15304112
> 
> 
> 1080i can only resolve 30 whole frames per second (or 25 for 1080i 50Hz). This means that a game that runs natively at 720p 60fps needs to be truncated if it is output by the console to 1080i.
> 
> If your display doesn't accept a 720p signal, or changes a 720p signal to 1080i, then this point is moot. However, if your display (like my Sony) changes 720p to 540p, then framerate is preserved at the cost of resolution.
> 
> 
> Same thing applies to TV broadcasts. In New Zealand we have broadcasters using 720p and others using 1080i. I currently have to tell my set top box to output 1080i (since 720p 50Hz results in rolling static). This of course means that sports events broadcast at 50fps are going to be signifcantly marginalised. I'd rather set the STB to pass-thru so that it can let my TV do the scaling.



Okay, I think I'm following you. You want your set to accept the 720p signal from your game console and scale it to 540p (not 480i, which it's doing automatically), so framerate will be preserved (albeit at the cost of resolution).


----------



## fahrenheit

Correct. Although the part in brackets where you mention 480i has me baffled.


----------



## JimPV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/15305220
> 
> 
> Correct. Although the part in brackets where you mention 480i has me baffled.



A reference to you saying:


"...as soon as I playback a 720p50 signal, the TV switches to 480i and the picture loses vsync and shows static noise."


----------



## fahrenheit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimPV* /forum/post/15305584
> 
> 
> A reference to you saying:
> 
> 
> "...as soon as I playback a 720p50 signal, the TV switches to 480i and the picture loses vsync and shows static noise."



Ah right, I'm with you now.


480i just seems to be the default mode when the TV isn't receiving a signal it can sync with.


I will try to get my video uploaded so that I can demonstrate what is happening


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/15304112
> 
> 
> For gaming and the preservation of framerate.
> 
> 
> 1080i can only resolve 30 whole frames per second (or 25 for 1080i 50Hz). This means that a game that runs natively at 720p 60fps needs to be truncated if it is output by the console to 1080i.



I think "truncated" is too harsh of a word because we still get half the line resolution of detail from each frame of the game. An example would be Gran Turismo 4 for the Playstation 2. Each frame of the game is matched with each field of the tv, so while you do only get 30 full frames you are still getting the benefit from the game running at 60fps.


At least I think I got that right. lolz


----------



## GlenC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/15304112
> 
> 
> For gaming and the preservation of framerate.
> 
> 
> 1080i can only resolve 30 whole frames per second (or 25 for 1080i 50Hz). This means that a game that runs natively at 720p 60fps needs to be truncated if it is output by the console to 1080i.
> 
> If your display doesn't accept a 720p signal, or changes a 720p signal to 1080i, then this point is moot. However, if your display (like my Sony) changes 720p to 540p, then framerate is preserved at the cost of resolution.
> 
> 
> Same thing applies to TV broadcasts. In New Zealand we have broadcasters using 720p and others using 1080i. I currently have to tell my set top box to output 1080i (since 720p 50Hz results in rolling static). This of course means that sports events broadcast at 50fps are going to be signifcantly marginalised. I'd rather set the STB to pass-thru so that it can let my TV do the scaling.



The 1080i is interlaced Odd lines are drawn, then even lines.... 30 times a second each...540 odd then 540 even = 1080 lines. A 720p signal is rescaled, not truncated, then interlaced. The rescaling may create some some issues, but 1080 lines still beats 720 lines. The major issue with CRT TVs is the size of the spot beam isn't small enough to resolve more than the 540 lines. Trying to display 720p would cause the odd and even lines to overlap resulting in a softening of the image. On a properly focused CRT RPTV, generally 9", you can start to see the scanlines (voids between lines), but not on a DV CRT.


----------



## fahrenheit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/15316074
> 
> 
> At least I think I got that right. lolz



Almost.


For your example of Gran Turismo 4 its true, but that game is the exception, not the rule.


Game developers generally avoid field rendering (both fields belonging to different frames) and opt instead to have the hardware draw both fields from the same full frame. This means that if a frame is dropped, the end user will simply see it as lag. If field rendering is used it has to be at a solid, unshakable framerate otherwise the image would go straight to hell if incoming and outgoing fields suddenly didn't match.


Sadly there is just not nearly enough talented game devs out there like Polyphony who can push a solid 60fps on the hardware.


----------



## fahrenheit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GlenC* /forum/post/15316275
> 
> 
> A 720p signal is rescaled, not truncated, *then interlaced.*



I'm with you on the "rescaled" part, but the "then interlaced" part doesn't quite wash.


My understanding is that DV CRT's that are capable of accepting a 720p signal will do one of two things (depending on the individual display).


A: Rescale to 540p but remain progressive.

B: Interlace and rescale to 1080i.


I believe the Sonys fall into catagory A.


----------



## NextGen

So what does all this mean in regards to an XBR960 or my XS955? I always thought these sets could render 1080x1440 interlaced but, what about 720p? Are these sets taking the 720p image and resampling or scaling it down to 540p or do the sfp sets actually render 720p? Cause I sure do see a big difference from 480p to 720p.


Sorry for encouraging the slightly off topic discussion.


----------



## fahrenheit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/15323765
> 
> 
> So what does all this mean in regards to an XBR960 or my XS955? I always thought these sets could render 1080x1440 interlaced but, what about 720p? Are these sets taking the 720p image and resampling or scaling it down to 540p or do the sfp sets actually render 720p? Cause I sure do see a big difference from 480p to 720p.



No my sfp set does not render 720p. It does however resolve 1440x1080.

I mocked up these two jpgs for testing-


1080 - http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64...tripes1920.jpg 


720 - http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64...tripes1280.jpg 


These alternating black and yellow lines are a single pixel high.

With the 1080 res image I can clearly see each individual line. With the 1280x720 image its a smudged mess.


----------



## konicagray

I have an issue. I know, don't we all? Hoping someone will forgive my jumping right in to plead for help.


Driving the KV-34HS420 via HDMI with a DTV-HD box. At 480p/480i resolutions, all is well. At 720p/1080i, the image stretches vertically off the screen top and bottom, but not horizontally. I set service mode parameters throughout to factory ranges per Ken's supplied spreadsheet - did not have a baseline set of numbers, as I replaced the IP board late last year (fried inexplicably) and ALL the numbers were weird after that, but was using component inputs until recently. Help? Thanks!


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/15317249
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the "rescaled" part, but the "then interlaced" part doesn't quite wash.
> 
> 
> My understanding is that DV CRT's that are capable of accepting a 720p signal will do one of two things (depending on the individual display).
> 
> 
> A: Rescale to 540p but remain progressive.
> 
> B: Interlace and rescale to 1080i.
> 
> 
> I believe the Sonys fall into catagory A.



I believe the Sony DA-4 chassis, direct-view crts, fall into category B. The Multi-Image Driver (MID) handles the processing.


----------



## fahrenheit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/15325022
> 
> 
> I believe the Sonys fall into category B. The Multi-Image Driver (MID) handles the processing.



I think we can use 60fps footage to prove/disprove this either way.


keep in mind that in the space of time that 720p can display 60 whole frames (1 second), 1080i can only display 30 whole frames.


If the set receives 720p60 and then does a rescale to 1080i (as some are proposing), then there is going to be a significant hit to the overall smoothness of the footage.


I think with a camera with shutter control, it should be simple enough to capture some moments in time and compare them between my HD CRT and my multiscan PC CRT monitor.


Hmm, looks like I've got a new weekend project ahead of me.


----------



## primetimeguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/15325022
> 
> 
> I believe the Sonys fall into category B. The Multi-Image Driver (MID) handles the processing.



Mine, KP-57WS510 converts 720p to 480p.


----------



## raouliii

From a Sony DA4 Chassis Training Manual:


"All video processing is performed on the B-board (DRC and MID processing).

The DRC circuit will double the horizontal frequency for input signals with 15.75KHz (NTSC) horizontal inputs.

The MID circuit will up-convert the horizontal frequency of the input signal to 33.75KHz, which is the scan rate of the DA-4 and DA-4X chassis. Table 5-2 shows the signal standard and its associate horizontal frequency.


Table 5-2 - Input Signal Standard and Horizontal Frequency

Input Signal Horizontal Frequency

Standard NTSC 480i 15.534KHz

High Resolution 480p 31.5KHz

High Resolution 720p 45KHz

High Resolution 1080i 33.75KHz


The following is a description of the signal flow for each standard listed in Table 5-2:

· 15.734KHz input: DRC circuit up-converts to 31.5KHz and MID circuit up-converters to 33.75KHz

· 31.5KHz input: MID circuit up-converts to 33.75KHz

· 33.75KHz input: XBR, HV pass through MID; HS bypass MID circuit

· 45KHz input: MID circuit down-converts to 33.75KHz


The difference between this set and a conventional set is the horizontal frequency, which is 33.75KHz as opposed to 15.75KHz scan rate in the conventional set. The 33.75Khz scan rate is considered a high definition horizontal scan rate."


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/15325022
> 
> 
> I believe the Sonys fall into category B. The Multi-Image Driver (MID) handles the processing.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *primetimeguy* /forum/post/15325390
> 
> 
> Mine, KP-57WS510 converts 720p to 480p.



Sorry. My statement was in relation to the Sony direct view crts (DA-4 chassis). I will edit my earlier post accordingly.


----------



## fahrenheit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/15325433
> 
> 
> From a Sony DA4 Chassis Training Manual:



Hmm, Mines an AX-1 chassis (model KV-HR36M31), so I'm not sure we are comparing apples with apples then.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/15325573
> 
> 
> Hmm, Mines an AX-1 chassis (model KV-HR36M31), so I'm not sure we are comparing apples with apples then.



I agree. I believe the DA-4 chassis began with the North American models, HS500/XBR800 and ran through the XBR970.


----------



## fahrenheit

Are those models Super Fine Pitch tubes? I recall Sony stopped using the SPF tubes at some point.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/15325681
> 
> 
> I agree. I believe the DA-4 chassis began with the North American models, HS500/XBR800 and ran through the XBR970.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/15325700
> 
> 
> Are those models Super Fine Pitch tubes? I recall Sony stopped using the SPF tubes at some point.



If I remember correctly, the XBR970 (newest model), along with all older models such as HS420, HS510, HS500, XBR800 don't have the sfp tube but the XBR960, XBR910 and XS955 do.


----------



## hitman25

Hello:



My 34xbr960 sometimes after I shut it off and try to turn it back on. It will blink 20 times(red light) and then not come on? Then if I let it sit for awhile it will just come on?? I know the code only goes up to 9 blinks so what is this?


----------



## fahrenheit

Finally uploaded a video showing my issue. Its probably not going to give any helpful insight to where the fault lies, but hopefully it does a better job of explaining it than my muddled attempts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HX21...e=channel_page 


I run through with 1080i first to show what should be happening.


----------



## jdre




> Quote:
> My 34xbr960 sometimes after I shut it off and try to turn it back on. It will blink 20 times(red light) and then not come on? Then if I let it sit for awhile it will just come on?? I know the code only goes up to 9 blinks so what is this?



Is that only if you turn it on immediately after shutting it off?


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/15323937
> 
> 
> No my sfp set does not render 720p. It does however resolve 1440x1080.
> 
> I mocked up these two jpgs for testing-
> 
> 
> 1080 - http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64...tripes1920.jpg
> 
> 
> 720 - http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64...tripes1280.jpg
> 
> 
> These alternating black and yellow lines are a single pixel high.
> 
> With the 1080 res image I can clearly see each individual line. With the 1280x720 image its a smudged mess.



Thanks for the test pictures


----------



## hitman25

NO THE 34XBR960...only does this after it has been turnd off for maybe a couple of hours...it seems to have a problem turning back on..


----------



## natchie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/15335358
> 
> 
> Finally uploaded a video showing my issue. Its probably not going to give any helpful insight to where the fault lies, but hopefully it does a better job of explaining it than my muddled attempts.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HX21...e=channel_page
> 
> 
> I run through with 1080i first to show what should be happening.



Hi I have searched throughout the AVS and found this thread and while I am not sure if this is the right place, it is the most relevant I have found so far.









I inherited a Sony kv 20fs120 and it has a RGB component set in the back...but for some reason, it is not accepting it. I tested the component cable against my projector when connected to HD DVD player and Xbox 360 but when connected to the Sony, I get just unsynched scrambled darkness.


Is there a specific cable requirement? Yes I connected correctly. I don't have a remote for this tv but managed to navigate through its menu with front panel buttons.


Thanks for reading and helping out...


----------



## lcaillo

What resolution signal are you feeding it? IIRC, it would only accept 480i.


----------



## GanJahMan

Im having a big problem with my KV-34XBR800. I have used this thread to do my focus settings in the service menu, and everything is focused real nice. Im am having a problem with my 480P mode, I have a Sony progressive DVD player going to vid 5 via component cables. When I play a Widescreen DVD, the picture is just a small box in the middle of the screen. If I go into the TV menu under the "Screen" option I can set the picture modes under "Wide Mode" to "Full,Zoom,Wide Zoom,or Normal" When I use any of the settings, it will strech the picture across the screen, but with major letterboxing (like 4" on the top and bottom) If its set to "Normal" I get the small box in the center of the screen. I have a Xbox 360 going to the DVI connector on the TV, and using the same DVD in the 360, the picture is full widescreen, with just a 1/2" letterboxing on the top and bottom of the screen. Also, when using the 360 as the DVD player, I am not able to change the settings in the TV menu under "Screen", the options are greyed out. In the service menu it shows the TV is in 720p mode when watching DVD's on the 360, while the Sony DVD player shows 480p mode. So Im assuming the problem exists in the 480p service menus. I have the factory service menu settings PDF and when I look at the horizontal and vertical settings, they are the same as the PDF settings. Im not sure what setting was changed that affects this, if any. If someone can help I would greatly appreciate it.


I forgot to mention that when I set the Xbox 360 to 480p in its setup options, I get the same exact problem when watching a DVD. This is only in 480p mode, 720p and 1080i modes on the 360 display the DVD picture properly.


----------



## natchie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lcaillo* /forum/post/15399273
> 
> 
> What resolution signal are you feeding it? IIRC, it would only accept 480i.



Right now, it is connected to the DirecTV HR-21 via composite. The format button on the DirecTV shows various signal settings, including 1080i, but that would not make sense. Just wondering why I cannot connect DirecTV component out to this Sony.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GanJahMan* /forum/post/15399887
> 
> 
> ... Im am having a problem with my 480P mode, I have a Sony progressive DVD player going to vid 5 via component cables. When I play a Widescreen DVD, the picture is just a small box in the middle of the screen. If I go into the TV menu under the "Screen" option I can set the picture modes under "Wide Mode" to "Full,Zoom,Wide Zoom,or Normal" When I use any of the settings, it will strech the picture across the screen, but with major letterboxing (like 4" on the top and bottom) If its set to "Normal" I get the small box in the center of the screen......



Make sure the DVD player is setup for a 16:9 tv.


----------



## lcaillo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *natchie* /forum/post/15400146
> 
> 
> Right now, it is connected to the DirecTV HR-21 via composite. The format button on the DirecTV shows various signal settings, including 1080i, but that would not make sense. Just wondering why I cannot connect DirecTV component out to this Sony.



It is because you can only display 480i on the set and the output from the sat reciever is 480p, 720p, or 1080i. You have to have a 480i signal to display component on this set.


----------



## natchie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lcaillo* /forum/post/15400606
> 
> 
> It is because you can only display 480i on the set and the output from the sat reciever is 480p, 720p, or 1080i. You have to have a 480i signal to display component on this set.



Thanks for reviewing. Guess at this point, it does not seem possible to make use of it. What would be a typical source of 480i signal? And also, at this point, does it matter for me to be concerned?


----------



## Dr_EluSivE

Hello, I have a 30xs955 and i have noticed recently that news crawls and other horizontal lines tend to go uphill from right to left, on both the top and the bottom. It looks like the whole picture needs to be rotated a few degrees. I have tweaked this tv before and made blacks and colors look better, but i havent messed with geometry. Does anyone know if there is an option in the menu for Rotation? and if so what it is called?


Thanks!

Dr.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr_EluSivE* /forum/post/15422023
> 
> 
> Hello, I have a 30xs955 and i have noticed recently that news crawls and other horizontal lines tend to go uphill from right to left, on both the top and the bottom. It looks like the whole picture needs to be rotated a few degrees. I have tweaked this tv before and made blacks and colors look better, but i havent messed with geometry. Does anyone know if there is an option in the menu for Rotation? and if so what it is called?
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Dr.



I believe the rotation adjustment would be 2170D-1, 8 NSCO.


There is a Tilt setting in the USER Setup Menu. You might try that first.


----------



## NextGen

I know this is an old thread but, I finally got around to completely re-learning all this stuff and completely recalibrating my set from geometry to color and beyond. I have corrected and/or alleviated much of the geometry errors I've had, used HCFR and an Xrite i1 Display 2 connected to a tablet PC to set grayscale, color, etc. I had an interesting finding I wanted to share and a question I wanted to ask.


The Finding.
*Setting Light Output at Y=100.*

I'd like to point out that, on my set at least, when trying to set contrast and black levels using the colorimeter sensor to achieve a light output of 100 Y(brightness) isn't as easy as point-and-shoot. With my 34xs955 every time you adjust *Picture* and *Brightness* you end up with a different brightness reading on the colorimeter when reading a 100% white window. I had to adjust the picture setting and brightness setting one notch at a time until I finally achieved proper grayscale tracking with a gamma of 2.2 and a light output of 100.
_

To explain this another way_... If you put up a 100% white window then measure the light output and get say Y=102.5 then adjust your brightness to get .65 of that with a 10% window when you re-measure the 100% white window (without touching the Picture control) you might end up with Y=98.5 or some number other than 102.5. I had to continue to turn up the Picture control and recalculate until I finally ended up with a stable light output and, yes YLMT was at 3. I ended up with about Y=100.22 at 29.99ftl for the display. Sweet!


The Question.

If some of you, Dsperber, Ken, ADU, etc, had to pick only one set of settings for HD and one set for SD content would you set SYSM to 2 or 3 and what corresponding codes/image tweaks would go along with that if your sharpness slider stayed at 0?


I was watching The Matrix and noticed that with SYSM=2 and MHYL=3 and MHYE=3 really brings out texture detail but I'm wondering if there are other settings I should try to get a more _pure_ picture. I have my sharpness slider at 0.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Question.
> 
> If some of you, Dsperber, Ken, ADU, etc, had to pick only one set of settings for HD and one set for SD content would you set SYSM to 2 or 3 and what corresponding codes/image tweaks would go along with that if your sharpness slider stayed at 0?
> 
> 
> I was watching The Matrix and noticed that with SYSM=2 and MHYL=3 and MHYE=3 really brings out texture detail but I'm wondering if there are other settings I should try to get a more pure picture. I have my sharpness slider at 0.



It's been awhile since I posted here as well. I'd be glad to give a few pointers if I can though. The only inputs I use on my Sony 34XBR800 are DVI and Component at 1080i though, so I can provide some tips on adjusting the edge settings for HD signals. The SD settings are bit more involved, so I may not be as much help with those.


First thing I'd suggest is to start with the User Sharpness control at the middle setting rather than turning it all the way down to the lowest setting. Turning Sharpness all the way down will actually degrade the detail, rather than turning Sharpness "off" on the Sony HD tubes. If you don't like how Sharpness looks at the middle setting, then you can tweak the basic sharpening effect higher or lower for a given resolution/input/picture mode using the 2170P-3/SHOF Sharpness offset. If you want to go by the book there are some patterns that can be of some use in making this tweak, such as the horizontal luminance sweep, and edge-enhancement tests in DVE. Be advised though that these patterns can easily be skewed by the other myriad edge-filtering controls in the SM. So you may do just as well setting it by eye based on the amount of edginess you want in the picture as anything else. There are only four different settings for SHOF, so it shouldn't be that tough deciding which looks best to your eyes for a given input. Once you have SHOF adjusted, then you can tweak the User Sharpness control up or down as needed for different programming.


2170P-3/SYSM basically controls the coarseness of the Sharpness control. SYSM=3 provides the finest sharpening, and SYSM=1 provides the coarsest. I prefer SYSM=3 for both HD and SD sources to preserve the finest details in both types of signals. It may depend on your viewing distance though. There may be some benefit to using a coarser setting if your viewing distance is much greater than about 6 or 7 feet to the TV for example, because the ultra-fine details become harder to make out the farther away you get.


There is another 2170P-3 parameter that is also closely related to SYSM, called SHF0 (not the same as SHOF). SHF0 appears to act basically like a high-pass filter, filtering out ultra-fine detail from the picture. A setting of SHF0=1 turns this filter OFF, allowing the super fine details (or noise as the case may be) to pass through. This works sort of like a sub-SYSM control, giving one extra level of finetuning for the level of detail in the image. Filtering out the ultra-fine detail with SHF0=0 will tend to give the picture a bit more sense of depth and "looseness" (and some might say also a bit more harshness). While disabling it (SHF0=1) will tend to make the picture seem a bit flatter, tighter and more "computer monitor-like", if that means anything. I go back and forth on this control, so my advise is just to try it set both ways, and see which you prefer, and which may be less stressful for your eyes.


There are other edge controls in 2170P-3 worth investigating as well, including the VM controls. If you want me to get into those too, just say so.


MID5/MHYL and MHYE control the enhancement of luminance detail in a horizontal direction (ie the sharpness of vertical edges). These are part of a group of digital edge controls that effect luminance and color detail in either a horizontal and vertical direction. The other related controls in the grouping are MHCL, MHCE, MVYL, MVYE, MVCL & MVCE.


MHYE controls the amount of luminance detail enhancement in a horizontal direction. And MHYL controls how coarse or fine that horizontal luminance detail enhancement will be, with 3 being the finest setting. The other controls are paired up the same way. (Note that the coarseness control actually comes first in each case, because it makes sense to adjust that before deciding how much of a sharpening effect you want.)


MHCL = coarseness of horizontal color detail enhancement

MHCE = amount of horizontal color detail enhancement


MVYL = coarseness of vertical luminance detail enhancement

MVYE = amount of vertical luminance detail enhancement


MVCL = coarseness of vertical color detail enhancement

MVCE = amount of vertical color detail enhancement


To simplify things on my TV, I treat this group of parameters as though they were just two controls-- one for the overall coarseness, and one for amount of overall detail enhancement. I leave all the coarseness settings (MHYL, MHCL, MVYL & MVCL) at 3. And then just tweak all the "amount" parameters (MHYE, MHCE, MVYE & MVCE) up and down together like a single control. I would not be afraid to get a little aggressive with the amount parameters on SD sources, and softer-looking HD sources such as you might get from alot of upconverting DVD players (like mine). These filters can do alot to bump up the detail in such sources, giving them a much more HD-like appearance. Settings as high as 5, 6 or even 7 are not out the realm of possibility here for MHYE, MHCE, MVYE and MVCE.


For higher quality HD inputs though (such as a Blu-ray player or HD broadcasts), you'll probably want MHYE, MHCE, MVYE and MVCE a bit more toned down, or perhaps even turned completely off.


Hopefully that'll get you started. If you want me to get a bit more into the nuts and bolts of these and the other edge filtering controls, just say so, and I'll try to break things down in more detail. Note also that if you had the "1080i scrolling bar fix" applied on your TV, then chances are the MID5 controls will have no effect on 1080i on your TV because the MID/DRC circuits are being bypassed for those signals.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/15478790
> 
> 
> It's been awhile since I posted here as well. I'd be glad to give a few pointers if I can though. The only inputs I use on my Sony 34XBR800 are DVI and Component at 1080i though, so I can provide some tips on adjusting the edge settings for HD signals. The SD settings are bit more involved, so I may not be as much help with those.
> 
> 
> First thing I'd suggest is to start with Sharpness at the middle setting rather than turning it all the way down to 0. Setting it to 0 actually degrades the detail, rather than turning Sharpness "off" on the Sony HD tubes.



Thanks for the response. I think I'm really starting to understand why someone would want certain components connected to specific inputs and each input and source having their own service mode "tweaks" applied. When playing video games there isn't as much signal degradation because things are rendered in real-time and sent directly to the TV. So, for my PS3 and 360 it would make sense to have a very flat unfiltered signal set to "Pro" mode. Then an enhanced and slightly filtered signal on something like "Movie" mode for watching Bluray or HD DVD. For my Dish I may want to use a different input with different enhancements for 2 or 3 modes. Some stations and some shows themselves look bad even in HD, so having different modes with different tweaks added could really be beneficial in getting the most out of the broadcast.


But honestly, I'm not that picky. I'm the most picky with Bluray and Video Games. *So maybe I should have asked what settings in MID5 and 2170P-3 give the purest representation of a direct real-time source?* I'm sure it's going to be enhancements turned off but, even with everything posted here I'm not positive as to which codes should be set to 0 or 1 or maybe another number such as 7 or even 3. And some codes can't be turned off or bypassed so we would need to set them at either the middle/neutral setting or least amount of enhancement. The strange thing is that even with no sharpness applied to the signal I still see slight differences when adjusting SYSM. For the longest time I left it at 3, but at the moment I have it at 2 and, unless it's my imagination, I do seem to like this setting better for the time being or until I put up some more patters and play around again.


For a pure signal, here is what I have right now but, I'm not entirely sure this is as pure as I can get.

*21703-P*
_SYSM=2_

VMLV=0

VMCR=0
_VMLM=3_(no effect if VM off?)

VMFO=0

VMDL=0

SHOF=0
_SHFO=1_
_PROV=1_

FILV=0

LTLV=0

LTLV=0

LTMD=0

CTLV=0
_MIDE=63_

VM=0

VMH=0

VMM=0

VML=0

VGAP=0

VGAS=0

VGAB=0

VGAC=0

VGAV=0

*MID5*

ALL CODES = 0 for group _63_ which MIDE points to.

*I had no idea setting sharpness to 0 degrades the detail in the Sony tubes.* However, I have mine set to 0 and can't see any degradation. This could be that I just don't know any better or it could have something to do with a group of codes in my 34xs955 that some owners don't have. *ENHA*


ENHA is like getting an eye exam, as you manipulate the group of codes they interact with each other to take the picture in and out of focus. I simply tweaked mine until I got the sharpest picture. It's like going from 20/20 vision to 20/15 when you get the right setting.

*ENHA*

HSHP=0
_HSFO=15_

HPOR=0
_HLTL=3_

HLTM=0

HAPL=0

HAPA=0

HCTL=0

HCTM=0


----------



## Mike2567

Wow you guys are smart. Maybe you can help me.


My KW34HD1 used to sync to 480p now it won't. It's the first generation Sony HDTV and it still has the best gosh darn colors and contrast out there. Anyway I changed the DVD player. I'm now using the Samsung BD UP5000 dual format DVD player, set to 480p and unfortunately the signal wont sync. On the OP device submenu, item AFD=1. Any other menu items that would help this to sync? Other suggestions (other than a new TV)?


----------



## johnc_22

I have a 34XS955.


I've spent a ton of time reading this thread over the past few days and finally took the plunge with setting gray scale and trying to fix red push as described by KenTech.


I think I've been pretty successful in both however I have one question about setting color decoding properly.


In Pro mode, Neutral color, color Axis set to Monitor (and all other sliders a default/middle) I seem to have what I can only describe as "blue push". In other words, following the instructions I saw, I set RGBS to 1 (blue gun only) and then adjusted UCOF and UHOF to get as close as possible and wrote the settings. I then cycled through the red gun (adjusting RYR and RYB) and green gun (adjusting GYR and GYB). Red and green are almost perfect. No adjustment would make it better. When I return to the blue gun only, I see that blue and cyan stand out from the blue background and I seem to have no way to impact this. Have I gone wrong somewhere along the way? If it matters I'm running the Blu-Ray DVE on a PS3 running into HDMI/Video7.


I'm not hugely concerned because red push is definitely gone and the picture looks so much more realistic than when I started messing with it. I'm just curious if there's some way to maybe make it even better.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnc_22* /forum/post/15480567
> 
> 
> I have a 34XS955.
> 
> 
> I've spent a ton of time reading this thread over the past few days and finally took the plunge with setting gray scale and trying to fix red push as described by KenTech.
> 
> 
> I think I've been pretty successful in both however I have one question about setting color decoding properly.
> 
> 
> In Pro mode, Neutral color, color Axis set to Monitor (and all other sliders a default/middle) I seem to have what I can only describe as "blue push". In other words, following the instructions I saw, I set RGBS to 1 (blue gun only) and then adjusted UCOF and UHOF to get as close as possible and wrote the settings. I then cycled through the red gun (adjusting RYR and RYB) and green gun (adjusting GYR and GYB). Red and green are almost perfect. No adjustment would make it better. When I return to the blue gun only, I see that blue and cyan stand out from the blue background and I seem to have no way to impact this. Have I gone wrong somewhere along the way? If it matters I'm running the Blu-Ray DVE on a PS3 running into HDMI/Video7.
> 
> 
> I'm not hugely concerned because red push is definitely gone and the picture looks so much more realistic than when I started messing with it. I'm just curious if there's some way to maybe make it even better.



You could have your colors turned up too high (too close to your 100% white point. Red should be 21% of your full white light output of your display) or you may want to check your color gamma settings. GAMS GAMR GAMG GAMB.


Or someone with more experience that me may know the problem. I can tell you that my 34xs955 had the same problem with blue and it wasn't until I set my gamma at 2.2 and got 100% Red at 21% of 100% white that everything fell into place. If you haven't already, check out this thread .


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnc_22* /forum/post/15480567
> 
> 
> ...I've spent a ton of time reading this thread over the past few days and finally took the plunge with setting gray scale...



Did you perform actual grayscale calibration using drives and cuts, xDRV and xCUT? This is very difficult to do without a color analyzer. If you did adjust drives and cuts by eye, this may be contributing to your decoder issues below.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnc_22* /forum/post/15480567
> 
> 
> .....I have one question about setting color decoding properly.
> 
> 
> In Pro mode, Neutral color, color Axis set to Monitor (and all other sliders a default/middle) I seem to have what I can only describe as "blue push". In other words, following the instructions I saw, I set RGBS to 1 (blue gun only) and then adjusted UCOF and UHOF to get as close as possible and wrote the settings. I then cycled through the red gun (adjusting RYR and RYB) and green gun (adjusting GYR and GYB). Red and green are almost perfect. No adjustment would make it better. When I return to the blue gun only, I see that blue and cyan stand out from the blue background and I seem to have no way to impact this. Have I gone wrong somewhere along the way? If it matters I'm running the Blu-Ray DVE on a PS3 running into HDMI/Video7.......



UCOF and UHOF are parameters that are video mode and input dependent and are, IMHO, not a good place to start to set your reference color decoding.


A reference color/hue adjustment might be better conducted using global parameters such as 2170P-4,SCLO and SHUO. Then, SCOL and SHUE, which are input dependent can be used to fine tune other inputs.


RYR, RYB and GYR, GYB are the correct global settings for the rest of the color decoder adjustment.


BTW, global reference offsets for picture (contrast/white level) and brightness (black level) would be 2170P-4,SPIO and 2170P-1,SBRT.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mike2567* /forum/post/15479962
> 
> 
> Wow you guys are smart. Maybe you can help me.
> 
> 
> My KW34HD1 used to sync to 480p now it won't. It's the first generation Sony HDTV and it still has the best gosh darn colors and contrast out there. Anyway I changed the DVD player. I'm now using the Samsung BD UP5000 dual format DVD player, set to 480p and unfortunately the signal wont sync. On the OP device submenu, item AFD=1. Any other menu items that would help this to sync? Other suggestions (other than a new TV)?



Is there another 480p source you can try to verify that the problem is indeed in the TV and not the player?


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnc_22* /forum/post/15480567
> 
> 
> I have a 34XS955.
> 
> 
> I've spent a ton of time reading this thread over the past few days and finally took the plunge with setting gray scale and trying to fix red push as described by KenTech.
> 
> 
> I think I've been pretty successful in both however I have one question about setting color decoding properly.
> 
> 
> In Pro mode, Neutral color, color Axis set to Monitor (and all other sliders a default/middle) I seem to have what I can only describe as "blue push". In other words, following the instructions I saw, I set RGBS to 1 (blue gun only) and then adjusted UCOF and UHOF to get as close as possible and wrote the settings. I then cycled through the red gun (adjusting RYR and RYB) and green gun (adjusting GYR and GYB). Red and green are almost perfect. No adjustment would make it better. When I return to the blue gun only, I see that blue and cyan stand out from the blue background and I seem to have no way to impact this. Have I gone wrong somewhere along the way? If it matters I'm running the Blu-Ray DVE on a PS3 running into HDMI/Video7.
> 
> 
> I'm not hugely concerned because red push is definitely gone and the picture looks so much more realistic than when I started messing with it. I'm just curious if there's some way to maybe make it even better.



What are your values for RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB? From what I've seen, the Sony HD tubes tend to be pretty consistent as far as the color decoders are concerned. And the settings should likely be somewhere around 15-15-7-4 for proper color decoding. You might try starting with those values, and then going back and forth between the UCOF color and UHOF hue adjustments until you find a combination that works well with the different RGBS modes.


raouliii also makes a salient point regarding the sub-hue and sub-color controls in 2170P-4. The default settings of 7 work pretty well on my TV for SCLO and SHUO, so I personally would not mess with those too much. However, if there's not enough range of adjustment in 2170P-3/UCOF and UHOF to achieve perfect alignment on the color decoders, then you can tweak the 2170P-4/SCOL and SHUE sub-controls to get some better control on UCOF and UHOF. 2170P-4/SCOL and SHUE should both be around 31 to start with. Some adjustment may be necessary to these controls to correct the color and hue levels on your video source though.


It probably goes without saying that the User Menu controls for Color and Hue should also be set at the middle settings.


Check the color settings on the PS3 as well, to make sure they're appropriately set, and not twisting the HD color space in some way.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...or you may want to check your color gamma settings. GAMS GAMR GAMG GAMB.



The gamma controls really only come into play when adjusting greyscale. They shouldn't have any effect on color decoding. And you probably wouldn't want to tinker with the individual gamma color components unless you have pretty good instrumentation, and notice an obvious issue with the greyscale that can't be resolved with the other basic greyscale controls.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I had no idea setting sharpness to 0 degrades the detail in the Sony tubes. This could be that I just don't know any better or it could have something to do with a group of codes in my 34xs955 that some owners don't have. ENHA



Perhaps. My TV doesn't have an ENHA group, so maybe that's something that's only on the later or fine-pitch tubes.


Here's a test you can try though to confirm whether or not there is indeed some degradation in clarity at the lower Sharpness settings on your 34XS955. Try setting SYSM to 1, and then adjusting the User Sharpness control from high to low with a fairly detailed pattern on the screen, and see if you notice some excessive softening/blurring of fine details at the lower Sharpness settings.


The effect is more subtle with SYSM set to 2 or 3, but there is still a similar loss in detail at lower Sharpness settings with those modes on my TV. Which is why I recommend starting with the User Sharpness control at the middle, and finetuning the effect at that position with the 2170P-3/SHOF sharpness offset.


If you finetune all the other edge parameters on your TV with the User Sharpness set to it's lowest setting, then the control becomes essentially useless for tweaking different types of program content, because it can only be adjusted in one direction (upward).


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/15481604
> 
> 
> What are your values for RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB? From what I've seen, the Sony HD tubes tend to be pretty consistent as far as the color decoders are concerned. And the settings should likely be somewhere around 15-15-7-4 for proper color decoding. You might try starting with those values, and then going back and forth between the UCOF color and UHOF hue adjustments until you find a combination that works well with the different RGBS modes.
> 
> 
> raouliii also makes a salient point regarding the sub-hue and sub-color controls in 2170P-4. The default settings of 7 work pretty well on my TV for SCLO and SHUO, so I personally would not mess with those too much. However, if there's not enough range of adjustment in 2170P-3/UCOF and UHOF to achieve perfect alignment on the color decoders, then you can tweak the 2170P-4/SCOL and SHUE sub-controls to get some better control on UCOF and UHOF. 2170P-4/SCOL and SHUE should both be around 31 to start with. Some adjustment may be necessary to these controls to correct the color and hue levels on your video source though.
> 
> 
> It probably goes without saying that the User Menu controls for Color and Hue should also be set at the middle settings.
> 
> 
> Check the color settings on the PS3 as well, to make sure they're appropriately set, and not twisting the HD color space in some way.



johnc_22,


If none of the above yields the results you're after, then you may also need to tweak a couple controls in the the CXA.... group, namely CBGN, CRGN, YGN. These offset the color decoding for HD signals.


The best strategy for adjusting color decoding on these TVs is probably to get it locked down pretty well with an SD source first. Then tweak the CXA..../CBGN, CRGN, and YGN offsets as required to bring the color decoding of HD signals into the best alignment possible. Pretty much everything described above should work though, and at least begin to get you more into the ballpark.


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Did you perform actual grayscale calibration using drives and cuts, xDRV and xCUT? This is very difficult to do without a color analyzer. If you did adjust drives and cuts by eye, this may be contributing to your decoder issues below.



As with the Gamma controls, the RGB Drives and Cutoff controls really should have no bearing on the color decoding adjustment. The greyscale was screwed all to hell when I first set color decoding on my 34XBR800 and the decoders aligned just fine.


You want both the color decoders and greyscale set pretty accurately for the color to look it's best on the TV though. If you adjust one without also fixing the other then you've really only done half the job, and may actually be worsening the picture quality on the TV in some ways.


----------



## johnc_22

Lots of good advice here. I'm rechecking my gray levels as it just dawned on me the relationship that *DRV and *CUT have on gamma, and while there are probably lots of combination of the 3 *DRV settings and 3 *CUT settings that get close to 6500K, they need to be set close to the 2.2 gamma. I've ordered the Eye-One Colorimeter and will quit using the Spyder2 as it's better than my eyes but apparently not that great (unless I got a bad one and then it's worse). The HCFR software (free) is super-easy to use, and I'm breaking in a new 42" plasma for my bedroom that will need some calibration work as well so I think a better sensor will be a good investment (not to mention computer monitors, etc).


I'll try all the suggestions here. I should be able to work on color decoding without the new sensor given that's pretty easy to eyeball even in a lit room with the "one gun at a time" approach.


I'm mainly interested in getting the gray scale and color decoding as correct as possible and then tweak VIDEO5 and VIDEO7 as needed from the user menu. I want to set it and forget it. Even with the stumbling around I've done so far the image is MUCH better than when I started.


I did have to DIY replacement of the D Board in this set a few months ago (should have tried soldering the ICs myself but . . .). Would that impact the state of my television and color calibration?


Thanks again for all the great advice and help here.


----------



## lcaillo

Remember that your target is D65, not 6500K.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnc_22* /forum/post/15486734
> 
> 
> I've ordered the Eye-One Colorimeter and will quit using the Spyder2 as it's better than my eyes but apparently not that great.



My Spyder2 did an _ok_ job at setting my grayscale, the problem came when I tried color decoding. For the life of me, I thought I'd never get the secondary colors right. I don't think the Spyder 2 can see the color yellow, my eyes actually did a better job. As soon as I tried out the i1 not only could I set the secondary colors in less than 5 minutes but, I even got my grayscale better.


After that I just started over and redid the whole calibration with the i1 and all the small corrections I made with it ended up as a fairly drastic difference from what I had with the Spyder2.


You'll love the Eye One and I wouldn't be surprised if half your problem was the Spyder 2.


----------



## johnc_22




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/15481275
> 
> 
> Did you perform actual grayscale calibration using drives and cuts, xDRV and xCUT?



Yes but I'll do it over once I get the i1 colorimeter.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/15481275
> 
> 
> A reference color/hue adjustment might be better conducted using global parameters such as 2170P-4,*SCLO and SHUO*. Then, SCOL and SHUE, which are input dependent can be used to fine tune other inputs.



Thanks - these got blue gun only much better and everything else fell into place. It's not 100% perfect but it's very, very close. Weird thing is my settings are not like anyone else's I've seen:


SCLO: 8

SHUO: 6

RYR: 11

RYB: 15

GYR: 13

GYB: 8



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/15481275
> 
> 
> RYR, RYB and GYR, GYB are the correct global settings for the rest of the color decoder adjustment.
> 
> 
> BTW, global reference offsets for picture (contrast/white level) and brightness (black level) would be 2170P-4,SPIO and 2170P-1,SBRT.



Thanks, all great info!


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnc_22* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In Pro mode, Neutral color, color Axis set to Monitor (and all other sliders a default/middle) I seem to have what I can only describe as "blue push". In other words, following the instructions I saw, I set RGBS to 1 (blue gun only) and then adjusted UCOF and UHOF to get as close as possible and wrote the settings. I then cycled through the red gun (adjusting RYR and RYB) and green gun (adjusting GYR and GYB). Red and green are almost perfect. No adjustment would make it better. When I return to the blue gun only, I see that blue and cyan stand out from the blue background and I seem to have no way to impact this. Have I gone wrong somewhere along the way?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnc_22* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...Weird thing is my settings are not like anyone else's I've seen



Some variation in settings is certainly possible. But whenever I see inconsistencies or obvious errors in color decoding results, my first instinct is to suspect there's a problem or misadjustment in the color settings on the video source. I've tested probably a dozen or so different makes/models of lower-end DVD players, and have found decoding errors or other color issues on about 1/4 to 1/3 of them. Sony's HDMI players have actually been among the more reliable ones. But I've never checked the color on a PS3, so I can't offer much guidance on that. (And my surveys have been far from exhaustive, so it's possible there could be decoding errors on some Sony models as well, and I've just not run across them.)


IAC, If you have the SD edition of DVE or AVIA, and another DVD player, I might recommend using that to try to confirm your color decoder settings for RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB using the Component inputs at 480p (or 480i if it's not a progressive player). Use the RGBS function in the service menu to isolate the different colors with these as well, rather than using their color filters.


As far as 2170P-4/SCLO and SHUO are concerned... I'd probably leave those particular controls at their default values (which is 7 on my TV). And use the other sub-color/hue controls, such as 2170P-4/SCOL and SHUE, instead to make any necessary tweaks to the color and hue on the PS3's input that are needed in addition to 2170P-3/UCOF and UHOF... unless you find some compelling evidence to suggest a _consistent pattern of error_ in the color/hue adjustments on the other inputs which seems to warrant a more overarching adjustment.


As raouliii mentioned, 2170P-4/SCLO and SHUO are global controls. And changing them alters the color and hue on every other input/resolution on the TV. So IMHO you really only want to tinker with those particular controls if you discover a consistent pattern of misadjustment in the color/hue settings on all of the other inputs on the TV. If you tweak SCLO and SHUO out of their default settings based on the readings on just one input or resolution, you could be needlessly complicating the color adjustment on the others.


There is also evidence to suggest that the HDMI and DVI inputs are not the most reliable place to start making such color tweaks on the Sony TVs. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I suspect the pros would recommend starting with the Component inputs, using SD color decoder tests, and then sort of cross-referencing the results on those with other inputs/resolutions before tinkering with the global SCLO and SHUO color/hue adjustments. If you start making decisions on how to adjust the global parameters this early in the game, based solely on the PS3, I'm afraid you could potentially be opening an unnecessary can of worms that you'll regret later on when you try to adjust the color on other inputs.


As mentioned above though, color decoding and saturation errors are not that uncommon on lower-end DVD players as well. So before using another player to confirm the color settings you might want to poke around a bit and see if anyone's reported problems with the decoding on your player, and make sure the player's color and hue are properly adjusted. You might also want to see if there are any reports of errors on the PS3 as well, or other issues using the HD decoding tests on the BD edition of DVE (which I also haven't tried yet).


It's also possible that your particular TV is just a little funky, or that your model works a bit differently than some of the other Sony HDTVs. It's hard to know for sure. If you really want to resolve the issue though, then the first steps are probably to try to confirm the color decoder settings on some of the other inputs and resolutions, and try to track down any potentially source-related issues.


----------



## blwegrzyn

Hello, I just started to read this post and I am at page 21.

Sorry if I ask a question that has been asked.

I want to go through the raster settings as explained in the manual.

I am not sure what do they mean when they say:

2. Reduce HSIZ to see sides of raster. (See Figure A) I dont understand what the shape means?


Also , I would like to know which input and what resolution should I use for those adjustments?

Can I use patterns in the service menu for this? Should the raster be done in 480i normal?

Can I use 1080I?

My tv is kd30xs955


EDIT:

I forgot to say that I screw the geometry without saving factory settings.

Should I restore it to factory defaults before I start with raster and then geometry?


thx


below the procedure from the manual:


2-8. H RASTER CENTER ADJUSTMENT

Preparation:

• Input a monoscope signal.

• Set to NTSC (DRC) mode.

1. Set to Service Mode and adjust as follows:

NO. Name Control Function Data

05 AGNG AGING 1, AGING 2 2

NO. Name Control Function Avg. Data

02 HSIZ Horiz Size 31

01 HPOS Horiz Position 31

NO. Name Control Function Avg. Data

00 HBLK Blanking Enable 0

CXA2170P-2

CXA2170D-2

CXA2170D-3

2. Reduce HSIZ to see sides of raster. (See Figure A)

3. Adjust H-Center with CXA2170D-2.

4. Adjust to the best screen position with H-CENT and write data.

5. Restore aging, HSIZ and HBLK to original condition.


----------



## WJonathan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blwegrzyn* /forum/post/15546751
> 
> 
> I forgot to say that I screw the geometry without saving factory settings.
> 
> Should I restore it to factory defaults before I start with raster and then geometry?
> 
> 
> thx
> 
> 
> below the procedure from the manual:
> 
> 
> 2-8. H RASTER CENTER ADJUSTMENT
> 
> Preparation:
> 
> Input a monoscope signal.
> 
> Set to NTSC (DRC) mode.
> 
> 1. Set to Service Mode and adjust as follows:
> 
> NO. Name Control Function Data
> 
> 05 AGNG AGING 1, AGING 2 2
> 
> NO. Name Control Function Avg. Data
> 
> 02 HSIZ Horiz Size 31
> 
> 01 HPOS Horiz Position 31
> 
> NO. Name Control Function Avg. Data
> 
> 00 HBLK Blanking Enable 0
> 
> CXA2170P-2
> 
> CXA2170D-2
> 
> CXA2170D-3
> 
> 2. Reduce HSIZ to see sides of raster. (See Figure A)
> 
> 3. Adjust H-Center with CXA2170D-2.
> 
> 4. Adjust to the best screen position with H-CENT and write data.
> 
> 5. Restore aging, HSIZ and HBLK to original condition.



DO NOT use factory resets. It is bad.


"Raster" is hard to define verbally, but when you see it in action, it's understandable.


This was my method for setting the geometry on my XBR970, which should be similar enough to yours. It's a minimalist approach, but it helped me accomplish my basic goals without getting too bogged down in terminology.


"First, adjust H Raster Center. This is a universal adjustment that should be done before the resolution specific ones.

1.Go to 2170D 2 group and set HPOS and HSIZ to 31 each, or at least until you can see the sides of the raster. Then set HCEN (or HCNT).

2.Go to MID1 and reduce overscan and center. Resize to edge of raster. This is another universal adjustment group.

3.Back to 2170D-2 and set raster back out to screen edges.

4.Go to MID2 and set your scan sizes and centering. This group is resolution and input specific, so you'll have to do it for each available resolution with each group of inputs (see your TV back for groupings). "


----------



## blwegrzyn

When I start setting the raster (still dont know what it is) according to the instructions in the manual and I set:

Set to Service Mode and adjust as follows:

05 AGNG AGING 1, AGING 2 2

00 HBLK Blanking Enable 0


The screen becomes kind of grey (AGNG) and HBLK causes to show more on the right site. I still dont understand the term "raster"

My understanding is that raster is visible area in the screen. So after I set above I see:


black stripes this extra is added by HBLK

| | | | |

| | | | |

| | TV SIGNAL | | |

| | | | |

| | | | |



is the idea to place the visible screen from in the middle by using HCNT?


thx


----------



## blwegrzyn

When I start setting the raster (still dont know what it is) according to the instructions in the manual and I set:

Set to Service Mode and adjust as follows:

05 AGNG AGING 1, AGING 2 2

00 HBLK Blanking Enable 0


The screen becomes kind of grey (AGNG) and HBLK causes to show more on the right site. I still dont understand the term "raster"

My understanding is that raster is visible area in the screen. So after I set above I see: see attached


is the idea to place the visible screen from in the middle by using HCNT?


thx


----------



## WJonathan

The raster is sort of like the picture frame, and the MID1 settings are like the photo mounted on the frame. The idea is to first reduce raster to see its horizontal edges, then center it. Then you set the size and center the picture with MID1 as close to the raster edge as possible. Then you reset raster just past the physical screen border (slightly overscanned).


----------



## kevm14

Been working on my 36XBR400. I bought the Avia II DVD and it seems promising. One thing that annoys me is that my set is missing many options from the service menu that the final generation of HD CRTs got, like full RGB gamma, RGB saturation and focus. According to the gamma screen of Avia, my set is running around 1.6. But things don't look all flat, so I am confused. Also, I found out it has not only a red push but is down in the greens a bit. Blue was accurate. With no RGB saturation adjustment I was forced to play with random options. I found one called AXIS in 2150P-4 (option 7) that said it was for "Color matrix setting." 0-3 range and default of 3 across the board. I played with the settings and to my amazement, a setting of 1 brought down the red saturation to about perfect AND brought up the greens to where they should have been. Still need to tweak white balance. Neutral seems whitest but despite trying to use it, I keep coming back to Warm, especially at night under incandescent room lighting.


----------



## Paradigm_Shift23

One piece of advice: NEVER attempt to adjust settings in the service mode while under the influence of drugs or alcohol.


After about 2 weeks of studying this thread I felt confident enough to tinker around a bit and fix some overscan. I fiddled around with the geometry settings WITHOUT writing down the original values! That was stoner-mistake #1. I thought to myself, "Everything will be cool, I'll just hit 0, enter, to bring everything back to their original settings."


It turns out I hit MUTE, enter, after changing each individual setting. At the time I didn't realize I only had to write settings once, and not after changing each specific value. This was stoner-mistake #2.


Needless to say, I ended up with a geometric oddity of a television. It was kinda like the very first projector screen I built, which was a piece of vinyl stretched over a bunch of pizza boxes, except worse.


Thankfully, after 3 weeks or so of studying this thread my sets geometry is now acceptable, with only a slight bowing at the top edges.


The color is now near-perfect, the blacks are no longer crushed, red push is fixed, and it looks 'balanced' and pleasing to my eyes.


Xbox 360 games look stunning now, and HD channels are near-perfection. I watched X-Men 3 in HD earlier today and it looked better than it did in the theater.


I gotta say Thank You! to KenTech as well as everyone whos been contributing to this monster thread. Its been informative, albeit a little scary at times, but hey, no risk no reward, right?


----------



## PublicSectorTech

So, should we start with these test patterns in the service menu or should we try and calibrate as best we can with Avia/DVE first?


----------



## Fiveways

I hope this thread isn't completely dead. I have a Sony KV-40XBR800 and I went into the service menu to adjust some of the options because I noticed in my vista media center certain UI elements were being cut off. I got everything working properly but then realized that maximized browser windows on my tv were missing the bar @ the top and some info at the bottom. The BBLK fixed the bottom but when I adjust the TBLK value, when I put it down to 0 (which shows everything) there are like 3-4 huge black scanlines through the part of the picture that gets shown, any idea on how to fix this?


----------



## Joseph Dubin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PublicSectorTech* /forum/post/15659840
> 
> 
> So, should we start with these test patterns in the service menu or should we try and calibrate as best we can with Avia/DVE first?



I had a problem using the 960's internal cross-hatch pattern.


Using the cross hatch pattern from the old INHD (which is stored on my HD DVR) I was able to set the geometry properly. However, with these settings the 960's internal cross-hatch test pattern was extremely distorted. Re-adjustments based on the service pattern badly warped the picture (in fact, the 960's pattern could not be adjusted as precisely as the external one). So my own personal experience has been to use external sources.


----------



## BEZMan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/8173288
> 
> 
> Just to make sure we've got the terminology straight: The vertical displacement of color on horizintal white lines is called *vertical convergence* -- fixed with permanent magnets stuck on the backside of the CRT and hard to fiddle with, plus rotating magnets on the neck of the CRT. The "other" convergence (vertical lines have color fringes) is *horizontal convergence*, and there are elaborate service-mode adjustments for this in the D-CONV. See those manual pages referenced above in #1889 for decent documentation.



I have calibrated my set (grayscale and color), and it is wonderful.


Only, there is still a slight vertical convergence issue towards the bottom of the set (red is "above" the white horizontal line of test patterns). The more to the bottom, the worst. I do not feel like removing the back of the TV, and I am afraid a service tech may even screw it more ;-) [set still has 3 months of warranty left]


Any ways to perhaps tame that issue a bit through the geometry settings (some posters talked about the tilt or may be the focus)?


I adjusted the geometry before to tackle a nasty bowing on the left side on my set. I now looks a lot better than we I bought it. The red convergence issue was already there before the geometry fix though.


Thanx!


----------



## petesimac

Okay, so, I have a Sony 34XBR800, and still love my set. But as I am wont to do, I tweak everything in my life; my tv is no different. Thanks to many here, I've gotten my set to look pretty darned good! Sadly, because I'm an idiot, I don't have all the original settings. I wrote down some of them, but as I tweaked, I changed some values that weren't written down, and confused myself with bad hand-writing and incomplete entries (such as not signifying which source I was tweaking, whether it be wide-stretch 480i or p, 720p or 1080i.


Lately I've been trying to work on the geometery of my set and nearly panicked last night when something really funky happened, and I was unable to reverse the problem. Hours later, I have it as close to perfect as I can get it for now, but I would love all the original default settings (preferably of all values for all sources) just so I can revert to the original should I get really frustrated. I know it's asking a lot, but does anyone here have such a wealth of info? If not, is there someone who has an untweaked 34XBR800 who is not afraid to go into the service menu and jot down the codes. I'm not made of money, being a single (widowed) father of two kids and two dogs, but I could offer at least a couple of bucks for your trouble. Any help?


----------



## petesimac

Bump.


----------



## PublicSectorTech

To anyone who has a 36XS955 ... what do you have your focus set to on the service menu? I'm a little nervous to go in there without a plan, at least if I have your settings I should be able to get some idea of what I need from mine.


----------



## PublicSectorTech

Hey, just wanted to thank KenTech, GlenC and everyone for this thread, I had a great time this weekend tweaking around. My set looks a lot better without all the overscan.


Thanks again for all your help!


----------



## ADU




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *petesimac* /forum/post/16026592
> 
> 
> Okay, so, I have a Sony 34XBR800, and still love my set. But as I am wont to do, I tweak everything in my life; my tv is no different. Thanks to many here, I've gotten my set to look pretty darned good! Sadly, because I'm an idiot, I don't have all the original settings. I wrote down some of them, but as I tweaked, I changed some values that weren't written down, and confused myself with bad hand-writing and incomplete entries (such as not signifying which source I was tweaking, whether it be wide-stretch 480i or p, 720p or 1080i.
> 
> 
> Lately I've been trying to work on the geometery of my set and nearly panicked last night when something really funky happened, and I was unable to reverse the problem. Hours later, I have it as close to perfect as I can get it for now, but I would love all the original default settings (preferably of all values for all sources) just so I can revert to the original should I get really frustrated. I know it's asking a lot, but does anyone here have such a wealth of info? If not, is there someone who has an untweaked 34XBR800 who is not afraid to go into the service menu and jot down the codes... Any help?



I haven't kept very good track of the original settings on my XBR800 either. If there are specific things you need assistance with though, I can try to help with those.


As far as geometry goes, I've always found a ruler and the right kind of pattern helpful. I only fixed the geometry for 1080i on my TV though. (It definitely makes things easier when you only have one input and resolution to tweak. That's not very practical for most users though.)


----------



## tommy18

Hi I have a similar problem with my 5 Year old Sony KD-36XS955 with black lines covering the bottom half of the picture where the top part of the picture is "prefect". The lines started 1 or 2 inches from the bottom and increased to 1/2 way after a couple of days. The stand-by light blinks twice and repeats after 5 seconds. Please help with this failure service code means... Thx!


----------



## avnstf

back in time to my 2003 32HS500:


This unit has been serving me well, and has a 1080i screen size that is still suitable for my small viewing room...(not to mention really NICE display of good black and white DVDs of old movies)


But I don't know whether I just didn't notice it before OR the picture has widened enough that the things often displayed near the sides, like numbers on the right or a pattern on the left, don't quite make it onto the screen. Maybe this is what I've seen referred to as "overscan" that may or not be designed in.


Can anyone suggest what is likely to be going on, AND (perhaps) what I can do about it? (I have never made any adjustments to this TV other than those available on the remote through the normal menu...) And - if there is a way to make adjustments to fix this issue - please mention any pertinent cautions about trying to do it!


Thanks - Tony


----------



## TomGreen321

I'm finally done with my 30hs420(gaming TV). Last night I comletely redid all of my geometry and the raster from scratch and input NextGen's text file settings(except for colour and geometry settings) and I'm floored by the picture. I've been playing around with the set for over a year, and I finally saw those settings and they work perfectly, even on my set. Good Job.


----------



## timm23112

Hello,


I was lucky enough to find a 960 on Craiglist last week, I have been working on geometry and overscan in small doses and have made significant progress with what was already a decent canvas.


I cannot locate the correct adjustment to correct the following at the bottom right of the screen:


________________________/


There is a noticable bow upward in this location that is especially pronounced as tickers enter the screen. Can anyone tell me the name of the adjustment for this? I see the vertical counterparts but no horizontal. Thanks!


----------



## mave198




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *timm23112* /forum/post/16916107
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I was lucky enough to find a 960 on Craiglist last week, I have been working on geometry and overscan in small doses and have made significant progress with what was already a decent canvas.
> 
> 
> I cannot locate the correct adjustment to correct the following at the bottom right of the screen:
> 
> 
> ________________________/
> 
> 
> There is a noticable bow upward in this location that is especially pronounced as tickers enter the screen. Can anyone tell me the name of the adjustment for this? I see the vertical counterparts but no horizontal. Thanks!



I had the problem .


Unfortunarely a tech trained in using magnets may be the only solution.


Keep in mind one thing, you'll never get perfect geometry on a CRT.


----------



## siskiou

We just bought a used 960 and I'm trying to adjust the settings, particularly how dark the picture is with default settings.

I have to bring up the brightness to about 80% to have a reasonable level, and even then it's hard to distinguish details in dark scenes.


Current settings are: standard, neutral, monitor, with picture at 56 and brightness at 48.


I'm a total noob to going deeply into the settings and so far have only tried going into the settings to see if I can, and dialing through a million options without changing anything.

I haven't been able to find the 2170p 4 group at this point, but am a little overwhelmed by the amount of settings available.


Any advice where to find this group in the grand scheme of things?


----------



## robotech3

sony kv-hs34m61 default settings?

please help me


----------



## leiff

Can someone help me? After I moved my subwoofer too close to my Sony 32hv500 tv my picture is slanting to the side. Even after I have tilt correction at plus 7 max the entire picture is still slanting to the side. Is there a service menu setting that allows for additional tilt correction? If so what is the setting called? how do I get into service menu? I thought it was something like = display 5 vol mute enter but I don't seem to be inputting it right.


----------



## Mike2567

Search your users manual, find out how to degauss. Your big subwoofer magnet has distorted the magnetic field of your picture tube and its little magnets (sorry not the exact technical description) beyond the normal range of adjustment. To degauss it may be as simple as unplugging the set then plugging back in. Or turning the set off and on a few times. Or maybe you have a specific menu item. Good luck.


----------



## greg du jour

I'm very happy with the screen parameters in Normal screen size mode, but I would like to back off the Zoom. When I watch "postage-stamped" material, the edges are cut off too much. Can I set the Zoom to be less without affecting Normal mode?


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greg du jour* /forum/post/17735894
> 
> 
> I'm very happy with the screen parameters in Normal screen size mode, but I would like to back off the Zoom. When I watch "postage-stamped" material, the edges are cut off too much. Can I set the Zoom to be less without affecting Normal mode?



I believe 2170D-1, ASPT is what you're looking for. Enter the service menu while already in ZOOM screen mode. As always, be very careful navigating, write down the initial settings and don't attempt ANY type of reset.


----------



## greg du jour




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/17736674
> 
> 
> I believe 2170D-1, ASPT is what you're looking for. Enter the service menu while already in ZOOM screen mode. As always, be very careful navigating, write down the initial settings and don't attempt ANY type of reset.



Will do, thanks.


Although I notice that the default is 0, the range is 0-63, and I have not changed any settings. Does this mean I can only zoom in more?


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greg du jour* /forum/post/17738739
> 
> 
> Will do, thanks.
> 
> 
> Although I notice that the default is 0, the range is 0-63, and I have not changed any settings. Does this mean I can only zoom in more?



Where did you learn what the default was for ASPT? Which model Sony do you have?


----------



## greg du jour

My model is KD-30XS955. I read the default in the Service Codes List.pdf attached at the top of this thread, although I notice the model for that is 34XBR910. Thought it might be the same across the XBR/XS lines.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greg du jour* /forum/post/17739964
> 
> 
> My model is KD-30XS955. I read the default in the Service Codes List.pdf attached at the top of this thread, although I notice the model for that is 34XBR910. Thought it might be the same across the XBR/XS lines.



That document is VERY misleading and misrepresents the structure of the service data lists. Many service data parameters are global, in particular geometry, convergence and color decoder, but many more can be dependent on input resolution, screen mode, picture mode, etc.


There are actually 7 different default values for ASPT, depending on the screen mode and input format. The default value for ASPT in ZOOM screen mode for your set is 43.


I would recommend that only the service data list found in an actual service manual be used by anyone navigating the service menu.


----------



## greg du jour

I dipped my toe. FWIW, my ASPT was set to 47. I experimented with that setting and its neighbors, but it seemed these only adjusted the vertical size of the picture. Do I need to do an overall size adjustment to get the horizontal width I desire in Zoom?


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greg du jour* /forum/post/17745182
> 
> 
> I dipped my toe. FWIW, my ASPT was set to 47. I experimented with that setting and its neighbors, but it seemed these only adjusted the vertical size of the picture. Do I need to do an overall size adjustment to get the horizontal width I desire in Zoom?



ZOOM, by definition, zooms the 4:3 content linearly so that the horizontal width equals the width of the screen. Therefore, the only adjustability would be the vertical size, which will affect the linearity of the picture.


Maybe we should back up a little. When you stated "When I watch "postage-stamped" material, the edges are cut off too much" in your earlier post, what content are you talking about? Which edges? Top/Bottom or Sides?


FWIW, I watch 4:3 content in WIDEZOOM screen mode and have no complaints.


----------



## greg du jour

By postage stamp, I mean 4:3 stuff that is letterboxed, so that in normal mode, there is black space on all 4 sides. This is the only thing I zoom in on. I would like it so that in Zoom mode, the edges of the picture I see in normal mode go to the edges of the screen (or close), eliminating all the black space but still retaining all of the picture content I see in Normal. As it is now, all 4 edges of the picture are cropped, too much by my reckoning, in Zoom mode.


Since, as you pointed out, Zoom makes 4:3 material as wide as the screen, and I feel too much is cut off on the sides in this mode, does my adjustment then become a different issue? Not sure if I have the right words here, but one of RASTER and/or OVERSCAN?


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greg du jour* /forum/post/17748497
> 
> 
> By postage stamp, I mean 4:3 stuff that is letterboxed, so that in normal mode, there is black space on all 4 sides. This is the only thing I zoom in on. I would like it so that in Zoom mode, the edges of the picture I see in normal mode go to the edges of the screen (or close), eliminating all the black space but still retaining all of the picture content I see in Normal. As it is now, all 4 edges of the picture are cropped, too much by my reckoning, in Zoom mode.
> 
> 
> Since, as you pointed out, Zoom makes 4:3 material as wide as the screen, and I feel too much is cut off on the sides in this mode, does my adjustment then become a different issue? Not sure if I have the right words here, but one of RASTER and/or OVERSCAN?



Yes, the issue in the horizontal direction would be overscan, which I would recommend setting while in FULL screen mode, as it is a global (excepting WideZoom) parameter. You may have to adjust VSIZ & VPOS in order to maintain linearity. Once your FULL overscan is established you can then adjust ASPT to squish the picture vertically to your liking. BTW, these adjustment are best performed using calibration slides.


----------



## greg du jour

Okay, thanks for your help. Will look into it.


----------



## salty

I've enjoyed reading through this thread, and feel ready to start tinkering a bit in the service menu. I had a few questions still:


I really am just using this TV as a dedicated gaming monitor-I went with the CRT hoping to get zero input lag. Little did I know when I bought the set that it _will_ have lag just like any other HDTV, due to analog>digital>analog conversion and the image processing involved with that.


I will be feeding a 1080i signal from an Xbox 360 via component, so scaling shouldn't be an issue. As I understand it, this signal still gets converted to digital and is passed through MID5 parameters and a few other enhancements in the 2170P-3 area of the service menu.


I'd love to skip the analog>digital>conversion with the HDPT=0 setting, but it seems to be _unwise_ to do so with the newer sets that have the PLL fix, like mine.(Is that really the case?)


I Just wondered if setting all MID5 parameters to zero and turning off all image enhancements would actually allow for a straight delivery of the analog Xbox signal to the analog CRT display of the TV(which is what I'm really trying to accomplish!)


Thanks for any replies...


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *salty* /forum/post/17769554
> 
> 
> ......I'd love to skip the analog>digital>conversion with the HDPT=0 setting, but it seems to be _unwise_ to do so with the newer sets that have the PLL fix, like mine.(Is that really the case?)..



Have you tried it? IMHO, this is your safest and easiest option.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *salty* /forum/post/17769554
> 
> 
> ... I Just wondered if setting all MID5 parameters to zero and turning off all image enhancements would actually allow for a straight delivery of the analog Xbox signal to the analog CRT display of the TV(which is what I'm really trying to accomplish!)...



This would likely cause a LOT of trouble for you and your set and not achieve your goal.


Good Luck


----------



## salty

I was also thinking initially that this would be the most direct and easiest way to get unconverted analog output. There does seem to be a lot of reading on the boards about this topic, but I have yet to read about anyone setting the HDPT parameter to 0 for the express purpose of eliminating input lag for video gaming.


I did a little more reading and came across a few posts (#984-#988 in this thread) warning users not to fiddle with the HDPT setting. Here is a snippet from one of them:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/7111163
> 
> 
> 
> **disclaimer** At this point, I do not endorse, or recommend that anyone, at least with one of these newer Sony sets "check out" MID-by pass and the "HDPT" setting! As, (just based on my short experiments), #1). I don't think we know "enough" about what it does on these newer sets, it might not be 100% "safe", #2) I don't see that its "MID by pass" does anything "useful", and you can use all Zeros in a MID5 column+accomplish the same thing, at least that seems to be the case given my short experience with it, and from what I can tell. I could be wrong, of course. #3). Also, when you're in SM at least, you might find the screen becoming "all garbled" if you set it to "0" making the Service Menu info "unreadable", therefore you'll be in a real fix if you don't know a way "out" of it. #4). At least on my set, when using HDPT=0, the User menus and channel displays/banners/etc. do not display properly.



My main concern is somehow locking myself out of the service/user menus, and/or "bricking" my set with this setting. I'm all for experimentation, but I just want to make sure I'm not playing with fire here...


----------



## salty

Ok, went ahead and set HDPT to 0 for the component inputs. The user menus and OSD jump around the screen, but otherwise is working fine...very cool option to have for gaming.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenTech* /forum/post/5774412
> 
> *13.2 - PRECISION FOCUSING: A RECOMMENDED PROCEDURE*.



I'm about to do this on a 34XS955 (16:9) set because my convergence is not to my satisfaction. I can get everything perfect in the center of the screen but the edges are pretty bad. I want to be able to put up a 720p or 1080i image from my computer via HDMI and read fine text when surfing the web. I see no reason why this can't be possible but, as of the sets current state everything about 6 inches on either the right or left side is pretty blurry and the red/gree/blue is clearly not lining up.


Anything I should be aware of before doing this?


Should I set ALL settings that have to do with focus and convergence to their standard default of 31/32? What about my landing settings, leave them as they are?


thanks.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/17797248
> 
> 
> I'm about to do this on a 34XS955 (16:9) set because my convergence is not to my satisfaction. I can get everything perfect in the center of the screen but the edges are pretty bad......



I don't think that procedure will fix misconvergence.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/17797248
> 
> 
> .... I want to be able to put up a 720p or 1080i image from my computer via HDMI and read fine text when surfing the web. I see no reason why this can't be possible but, as of the sets current state everything about 6 inches on either the right or left side is pretty blurry and the red/gree/blue is clearly not lining up. .....



I would recommend working on the convergence and focus, independent of one another.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/17797248
> 
> 
> ......Anything I should be aware of before doing this?
> 
> 
> Should I set ALL settings that have to do with focus and convergence to their standard default of 31/32? What about my landing settings, leave them as they are?
> 
> 
> thanks.



I would recommend starting with what you already have. Write them down and don't attempt ANY type of reset. BTW, the focus (QP) parameter defaults for your set are not 31 or 32.


----------



## Joseph Dubin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greg du jour* /forum/post/17748497
> 
> 
> By postage stamp, I mean 4:3 stuff that is letterboxed, so that in normal mode, there is black space on all 4 sides. This is the only thing I zoom in on. I would like it so that in Zoom mode, the edges of the picture I see in normal mode go to the edges of the screen (or close), eliminating all the black space but still retaining all of the picture content I see in Normal. As it is now, all 4 edges of the picture are cropped, too much by my reckoning, in Zoom mode.
> 
> 
> Since, as you pointed out, Zoom makes 4:3 material as wide as the screen, and I feel too much is cut off on the sides in this mode, does my adjustment then become a different issue? Not sure if I have the right words here, but one of RASTER and/or OVERSCAN?



Know I'm a little bit late on this. I also found the 960's zoom cut off the edges and since it stretched the picture beyond 34 inches it also caused the picture quality to appear less sharp because it was over-stretched.



The solution was not to use the 960's zoom at all.


I first went into the service menu to insure the 960's overscan in the full mode was adjusted properly. I then set my HD-DVR and DVD recorder to output everything at 1080i. Since all 480p material is upconverted to 1080i via HDMI, the 960's picture mode is automatically set to full and (with the properly adjusted overscan) fits the screen perfectly.


The DVR is set to "auto fit" so upconverted standard definition 4x3 material is seen 16x9.


The DVD recorder is also set to output 4x3 material to fill a 16x9 screen, however, DVD-Rs recorded from HD (downcoverted to 480i) cause 4x3 pictures to appear windowboxed. Using the DVD recorder's zoom enables the picture to fit the screen perfectly. The picture quality is also better compared to using the 960's zoom because it is not stretched out of proportion.


The 960's vertical expand is used (instead of full) when watching DVD-Rs recorded in letterbox.


Again, sorry I'm a little late with this response.


----------



## joemar103

CAN ANYONE HELP ME!!! I have a KV34XBR910 with the seven blinking code in replacing the IC ......... I accidently destoryed the resistor in R8058 location and the diode in the D8010 location on the D board anyone know the value and or the part #'s of these parts .


----------



## scitek

Is it possible to get this thread in Lamen's?










I was able to set my overscan last night. Once you figure out how to navigate the dang service menu, it's not so daunting.


----------



## justsc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scitek* /forum/post/17947746
> 
> 
> Is it possible to get this thread in Lamen's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was able to set my overscan last night. Once you figure out how to navigate the dang service menu, it's not so daunting.



It is possible, but I am afraid if it is to be done it'll be you that does it. I don't mean that to sound condescending, but I can't imagine anyone doing such a thing at this point.


This thread has earned its place at the top of the pile. It started innocently enough by goodhearted people trying to help one another. As it grew it was joined by so many, including professional as well as laymen. It got so big so fast that at times the OP did summarize pieces for some. But those summaries are few. I can attest to having wanted that myself. But by forcing myself to dig, and dig, and dig I learned so much more by trial and error than I ever would have by being spoon-fed the codes and steps. If you do go through the entire history of the thread you will find attachments, or links to them, that have charts and lists of codes and effects, but I no longer recall exactly where they are.


I hope you choose to go "end to end" with this thread. So much of video and home theater will become clear and understandable. Lots of wonderful people argued, laughed and shared throughout this thread and the result is not just information, but how the information was arrived at and why it is what it is. This might well be the best of AVS.


Enjoy!


steve


----------



## shmup-o

I just picked up a 30SX955, but the display is tilted to the left slightly. I currently have a PS2 and Xbox hooked up via Component, a Turbo Grafx hooked up via Composite, and cable hooked up via RF. All inputs are tilted, so that the left side of the screen is lower than the right hand side of the screen.


For instance, if you were to watch ESPN or have a video game with scrolling in the background, you can see that you lose image when it's streaming right to left.


I played with the UVLN and LVLN and saw that it affects top and bottom of the screen. In other words, the left and right edges look fine, but the lower left corner is lower than the lower right corner. Same with the upper corners - left is lower than right.


I played around with the Geometry settings, but cannot seem to correct the issue. Nothing seems to take the left hand side of the screen and raise it.


Now, I haven't read through the thread, just enough of the tutorials to make myself dangerous, but I can't seem to find the right words in order to find someone else who may have had this issue. Can someone please help me or point me in the right direction?


Edit -

Found the "rotate" SM code of 2170D-1 #8 NSC0. Unfortunately, this does nothing to my display if I push it to the extremes. Should this have fixed the issue?


Edit 2 -

Found the "tilt" in the menu, does not adjust the display at all...


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shmup-o* /forum/post/18037790
> 
> 
> I just picked up a 30SX955, but the display is tilted to the left slightly.....



Have you read through these two pdf's? Geometry XBR960 & Geometry XBR2 I'm not sure where you got the idea that UVLN and LVLN might help as those two parameters are really only used to adjust the linearity of the WideZoom screen mode. I would suggest putting them back to the original values.


I would further suggest that you use a crosshatch pattern to adjust geometry. Its really the only way to see what is happening while changing parameter values.


----------



## shmup-o




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/18038474
> 
> 
> Have you read through these two pdf's? Geometry XBR960 & Geometry XBR2 I'm not sure where you got the idea that UVLN and LVLN might help as those two parameters are really only used to adjust the linearity of the WideZoom screen mode. I would suggest putting them back to the original values.
> 
> 
> I would further suggest that you use a crosshatch pattern to adjust geometry. Its really the only way to see what is happening while changing parameter values.



I looked through the Geometry XBR960, but I will try to get a crosshatch up on the screen and actually go through the steps.


If it helps, I had an image with a line across the bottom and nothing in the settings lowered the right bottom corner and nothing raised the left bottom corner.


Also, I only used the UVLN and LVLN to see the top and bottom edges - I never wrote the settings to memory.


----------



## shmup-o

Ok, here is what I did last night:


1) Wrote down all of my initial values for 2107D-1 and 2107D-2.

2) Found a crosshatch image on this forum and put it on a thumbdrive.

(Found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=781394 

3) Took the PS3 downstairs and hooked it up to via HDMI and put the crosshatch up on the CRT.


*** Please note, that this TV is not a 30XS955 as previously stated. It's a 30HS420. Trust me, I'm going to have words with the seller.







***


The image I used was the 20x20 in the link above. Picture before I started was losing .5 squares from right to left on the bottom and top of the display.


I started to go through the steps outlined in the XBR960 Geometry Setup to see if I could pull the image clockwise, but just like last time, nothing was the magic option.


So what is it I'm trying to do here? If NSC0 doesn't help me rotate the horizontal lines is it possible to use the other geometry settings to pull the image right? Do I need to just keep adjusting the other settings until I have an image that is off-center on a normal TV, but looks correct on this one?


----------



## PublicSectorTech

Hmm, this is an interesting problem. I'm about to adjust the geometry on my 36XS955 as well, I'll let you know my results.


----------



## Paulus_Grandis

So, after making a bunch of adjustments I'm pretty satisfied with my PQ now on my 960, but there are still a few minor problems I'm trying to work out.


My question is, are there HORIZONTAL versions of PIN, UCP, LCP, LANG, VBOW, LBOW? For example, HTPZ is the horizontal version of PPHA (or at least that how I associate the two). I hope that makes sense.


If I could find those equivalent settings I think I get the geometry just right and then try messing with the focus/convergence on the screen edges.


Thanks in advance!


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/17800320
> 
> 
> I don't think that procedure will fix misconvergence.I would recommend working on the convergence and focus, independent of one another.I would recommend starting with what you already have. Write them down and don't attempt ANY type of reset. BTW, the focus (QP) parameter defaults for your set are not 31 or 32.



Well, I've readjusted the convergence and focus. Basically, I had to give up a bit of focus in the center and instead just try and get a nice evenness of focus and convergence across the entire screen. This helped the overall picture immensely but I still have one problem.
*

*Horizontal convergence, especially with the red appears to be off. It's as if the red is up above blue and green. It's very slight and not noticeable when viewing movies or playing games but, it's there. It's easily noticed when viewing text from the PS3 web browser. Is there no way to adjust this?*


Also, I have some issues with 480i as well.

I have a "soft" picture in 480i and I also can't get the black bars to center correctly on the screen.
*

*For the 480i image quality did anyone ever figure out what some of the service codes did that were specifically for 480i?


*What are all the codes that only effect the centering of the screen for the "Normal" picture mode?*




The set looks pretty phenomenal as it is now. I spent quite a long time understanding how to do all this but it was time well spent.


Great thread everyone!


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/17800320
> 
> 
> I don't think that procedure will fix misconvergence.I would recommend working on the convergence and focus, independent of one another.



It ended up being that none of the code adjustments helped. I ended up doing a precision focus adjustment by filing out a hole in the back of the set then adjusting focus with a screwdriver. Then I went back in and adjusted the service codes to great effect alleviation much of the convergence issues.


Now I want to go back in and refocus the set to see how sharp I can get it. Without proper convergence in the center of the screen it's hard to achieve good focus. Although, I suspect I could turn off all but one gun and adjust focus for it then work my way up to all three.



> Quote:
> I would recommend starting with what you already have. Write them down and don't attempt ANY type of reset.



What I already had about 1 year ago from the factory was absolutely terrible. I ended up getting it as good as possible myself. I just had no idea the precision focus pot was that far off. It was so bad that some of the focus and convergence codes did nothing at all that I could see. Once I got better focus of the screen all the code adjustments are noticeable now.



> Quote:
> BTW, the focus (QP) parameter defaults for your set are not 31 or 32.



It's a good place to start from. That's what I meant. It's actually at 31 right now and adjusting it in either direction takes the picture out of focus.



I just had no idea turning that focus knob behind the set could do so much for the picture. I have my HTPC connected via HDMI and I can "almost" read fine text in 1080i from 6 feet away. In 720p I can read fine text with no issues at all. 1080i even allows me to use the PS3 browser and read forum like this from over 10 feet away. My TV is approaching the clarity and resolution of my FW900 computer monitor and, that is no easy task for ANY display.


Some ps2 games running in 480p look better than some xbox games. Tekken 5 is a great example on how greatly focus can effect your picture. I can play DOA3 or DOA2U on Xbox then switch to Tekken 5 in 480p and it's really difficult to argue which game is technically superior. Tekken 5 is cleaner than both DOA games. Upscaled field rendered games from PS2 really benefit as well.


I knew this was an amazing TV but, I never knew it was this amazing.


----------



## xomoi

I'm having problems with the Landing settings on my kd-34xs955. On the Top Right there is a green discoloration and a red discoloration a little below that. I tried adjusting RT in the LANDING settings, but it only makes one color go away while the other gets worse. I also tried adjusting some of the other LANDING settings with no improvement. I have moved electronics away from the tv and let it degauss with no improvement. Anyone know a solution to this? Or do I need to call a technician?


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *xomoi* /forum/post/18447546
> 
> 
> I'm having problems with the Landing settings on my kd-34xs955. On the Top Right there is a green discoloration and a red discoloration a little below that. I tried adjusting RT in the LANDING settings, but it only makes one color go away while the other gets worse. I also tried adjusting some of the other LANDING settings with no improvement. I have moved electronics away from the tv and let it degauss with no improvement. Anyone know a solution to this? Or do I need to call a technician?



Was it originally caused by magnetism from a speaker or power supply in a component? If yes, then you might wait a little longer for power on degaussing to take care of it. Residual magnetism takes some time to degauss out.


----------



## xomoi

There is a radio under the tv, I'll remove for a couple of weeks and see if that clears it up. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## NextGen

see post 2878


----------



## phatal

Wow! That's what I said to myself when I first found this thread. I was looking for some information on possibly adjusting my 5 year old KV-34HS420, and boy did I find some!


At first I wasn't even going to attempt anything, but after reading (and re-reading) some posts I decided to give it a go. The set needed some overscan/geometry adjustments as well as focus. After some trial and error I can safely say I've brought this set back to life. I can't believe how far off the focus was, especially the sides/corners. Now I can read my DVR's TV guide without squinting.










A big thanks to Ken and everyone that contributed to this thread. The internet can be an amazing thing.


Cheers!


----------



## NextGen

In this post Kentech says that 480p bypasses the 2103 chip. However, every single time I alter some of the settings in 2103-1 they seem to directly effect my PS2/PS3 games. I believe now, unless schematics prove otherwise that, at least with an RGB signal from my PS2 or PS3, the 2103 chip is not bypassed, even with HDMI. I know I'm not imagining things either. I clearly see a tighter picture with less motion artifacts when rotating a camera in any game.


I've also come to conclude that MHLY and MHLC in the MID5 group of codes causes blur on fine text in HDMI on my PS3.


I'm now writing a short paper that lists all the important codes and how to set them to achieve the cleanest picture from an uncompressed source such as a game console. I'm sure many calibrators and long time members will find lots of things wrong with the article and that's fine by me. Just be sure and state what needs to be changed.


After proper grayscale and color calibration via the guide over at curtpalme.com, the precision focus adjustment per this thread, convergence, landing, and picture enhancement minimization, I know have a display that looks so good I have people tell me that some of the game characters look as if you could just reach in and pull them out of the TV. I never knew any display could look this good.


----------



## NextGen

*Final Update... Probably.*

_5/22/2011_


See the attached files for a complete revamped and overhauled set of code changes. IMO, for playing video games, they are above and beyond anything I've seen on my set before. It's almost as if the old CRT's have their own versions of Super Sampling, Anti-aliasing and, Texture Filtering with these codes.

 

34xs955_HDMI_ReadMeFirst.doc 33.5k . file

 

CRTWega.pdf 97.986328125k . file


----------



## Slinky11

Thanks NextGen


I have been studying this thread for awhile know and have only fiddled with overscan and convergence. But I am starting to feel very comfortable with the menus and understanding of how everything operates.


The majority of the usage of my set is 360 games and sometimes DVDs, so I am interested in improving these aspects.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Slinky11* /forum/post/18531692
> 
> 
> Thanks NextGen
> 
> 
> I have been studying this thread for awhile know and have only fiddled with overscan and convergence. But I am starting to feel very comfortable with the menus and understanding of how everything operates.
> 
> 
> The majority of the usage of my set is 360 games and sometimes DVDs, so I am interested in improving these aspects.



I know geometry can really be a pain. The one thing that has helped me is doing the precision focus adjustment. It just made it easier to see the slightest change.


----------



## xomoi

Why is it that some service menu codes are locked or do nothing on smaller sony crts? I have a sony model kv-13m40 and another small sony crt in which some common values do nothing. Values such as hsiz, cpin, pamp, trap, and some other do nothing to change the geometry. The numbers can be adjusted but they do not change the picture. I assume that this is done intentionally since I have two sets in which those same values are locked. It's not that big of a deal, but I would like to know why it set this way.


----------



## Eric_S

Hello Fellows.


Last week I was fortunate enough to purchase an XS-955 off of Craigslist for a mere $100.


It's a dream set for me, my first true hdtv, and much preferable to a cheap LCD television in terms of image quality.


I have been reading this thread daily, but it seems I still can't seem to get through the dense explanations and tutorials. It seems like a lot of data is all over the place.


Can someone help me out with just one aspect of the tv that I want to modify?


I would like to correct the overscan on my set. Currently it is cutting off quite a bit too much of the screen imo. I can tell by looking at various sources like games and network channels that I'm missing about 10% of the image. I know CRT's have a bit of overscan, but I think I can lessen this effect and improve image the quality.


What are the specific settings to change in the service menu to just reduce the overscan uniformly? I know that I am looking for H-Size and V-size, but I have been reading in this thread that I must also change some settings to maintain the image processing features are being applied over the same area. Does that sound right?


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Eric_S* /forum/post/18902101
> 
> 
> I would like to correct the overscan on my set. Currently it is cutting off quite a bit too much of the screen imo. I can tell by looking at various sources like games and network channels that I'm missing about 10% of the image. I know CRT's have a bit of overscan, but I think I can lessen this effect and improve image the quality.
> 
> 
> What are the specific settings to change in the service menu to just reduce the overscan uniformly?



Start here .


----------



## Eric_S

I think I am all set to enter the service menu and correct the overscan on my set, but I have run into a small problem.


I don't have the original remote, and I can't figure out a way to press the 5 key that is required to enter service mode.


I have two universal remotes. One is from Insight Digital, and the other is an RCA universal remote. Both are able to perform every function of the tv, except to be able change the channel in OTA mode. If I press the number keys it always tries to send the signal to my cable box?


Does anyone know the specific universal code for this TV, or a universal remote that can enter service mode?


----------



## The Lizard King




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/18902143
> 
> 
> Start here .



I must be missing something in your directions, because once I power off out of the service menu, the settings go back to the ones that they were previously at (i.e. no net change has occured aftering powering off).


Is there a way to "save" the new settings before powering off?


TLK


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Lizard King* /forum/post/19013116
> 
> 
> I must be missing something in your directions, because once I power off out of the service menu, the settings go back to the ones that they were previously at (i.e. no net change has occured aftering powering off).
> 
> 
> Is there a way to "save" the new settings before powering off?



If you chased down the threads, you should have discovered that I had also provided (as an attachment to one of those posts) my own Excel spreadsheet that contained all of my settings (for all resolutions and inputs, and both USER MENU values as well as SERVICE MENU values). While the values in the spreadsheet are obviously unique to my own XBR960, the spreadsheet itself can obviously be used by you as a very convenient way to "write down" your own current values before you begin tweaking.


Note that at the bottom of the "Service Menu" tab on spreadsheet were assorted "Notes":


Notes:

Enter Service Mode = [PowerOff] - [DISPLAY] - [5] - [VOL+] - [PowerOn]

Menu item Next = [1]

Menu item Previous = [4]

Group Next = [2]

Group Previous = [5]

Adjust item value Up = [3]

Adjust item value Down = [6]

Save New Settings = [MUTE] - [ENTER]

Exit Service Mode = [PowerOff]

Warning: [7]-[JUMP]-[ENTER] and [7]-[9]-[ENTER] will reset the NVM data. Avoid key [7].



===> Save New Settings = [MUTE] - [ENTER]


You have to do this in order to "save" your updated settings before powering off. If you don't, then as you discovered your changes will not be saved and you'll be right back where you were before you started tweaking.


----------



## The Lizard King




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/19013716
> 
> 
> If you chased down the threads, you should have discovered that I had also provided (as an attachment to one of those posts) my own Excel spreadsheet that contained all of my settings (for all resolutions and inputs, and both USER MENU values as well as SERVICE MENU values). While the values in the spreadsheet are obviously unique to my own XBR960, the spreadsheet itself can obviously be used by you as a very convenient way to "write down" your own current values before you begin tweaking.
> 
> 
> Note that at the bottom of the "Service Menu" tab on spreadsheet were assorted "Notes":
> 
> 
> Notes:
> 
> Enter Service Mode = [PowerOff] - [DISPLAY] - [5] - [VOL+] - [PowerOn]
> 
> Menu item Next = [1]
> 
> Menu item Previous = [4]
> 
> Group Next = [2]
> 
> Group Previous = [5]
> 
> Adjust item value Up = [3]
> 
> Adjust item value Down = [6]
> *Save New Settings = [MUTE] - [ENTER]*
> 
> Exit Service Mode = [PowerOff]
> 
> Warning: [7]-[JUMP]-[ENTER] and [7]-[9]-[ENTER] will reset the NVM data. Avoid key [7].
> 
> 
> *===> Save New Settings = [MUTE] - [ENTER]*
> 
> 
> You have to do this in order to "save" your updated settings before powering off. If you don't, then as you discovered your changes will not be saved and you'll be right back where you were before you started tweaking.



Thank you.


One thing I DON'T understand is messing with the MID3 setting. After messing around with it, I really don't see how it "layers" on top of the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 settings. They seem completely independet to me, at least with my KD-36XS955.


Thanks again!


TLK


----------



## Eric_S

I have successfully corrected the overscan on my XS955!










The image is much brighter and sharper now as an added bonus to seeing the whole image. I suppose it's because there is more energy from the scanning electron guns inside being focused in a smaller area than before.


I did this by adjusting the VPOS, VSIZ, HPOS, HSIZ setting in group 2170D. I adjusted it as small as could, but it still cut off part of the screen.


Then I went into MID3 and used the VDHP, VDHS, VDVE, and VDVS settings to further reduce the size of the screen.


From what I can tell the difference in the two sets of screen adjustments is that the first one is the size of the actual raster, and the other is a sort of digital image resizing to fit the image onto the raster. I have lined them up closely, but they do not line up pixel to pixel. Will this cause any negativity?


----------



## DSperber

Quote:

Originally Posted by *The Lizard King* 
One thing I DON'T understand is messing with the MID3 setting. After messing around with it, I really don't see how it "layers" on top of the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 settings. They seem completely independet to me, at least with my KD-36XS955.
Well I can't speak firsthand about the 36XS955, although the service manual says it applies to the common DA-4 chassis shared with the 34XBR960. But I don't think this doesn't necessarily mean that all particulars of the Service Menu or corresponding electronics work identically across all models in the product family.


Furthermore, I've read feedback from other Forum members (on this and related threads, for the 960) that they suggest against using MID3 for adjustment of geometry. Some kind of "risk", or "hazard", or "damage"... or some such discussion.


Personally, I don't understand any of this. Lacks the ring of truth to me, else why would Sony have invented MID3 at all?


Anyway, I can simply say that for me using 2170D-1 for vertical size/centering/positioning of the "background", and using 2170D-2 for horizontal size/centering/positioning of the "background", and using MID3 for vertical/horizontal size/centering/positioning of the "foreground image on top of the background"... well that was how I got my picture to look the way it does.


Of course you should be looking at a proper test pattern (see BMP inside of attached OVERSCAN.ZIP) when doing these three tweaks. And you'll go back and forth, one "click" at a time while watching a horizontal or vertical edge move in or out of your screen, so that you can clearly see what you're accomplishing by a plus or minus tweak, and whether that's "better" or "worse" than before. The extreme edge of the image (in the "foreground") may disappear when you shrink the "background" a bit, so you have to play with both foreground and background in order to maximize the visible image, reduce overscan to 1-2% (or maybe even 0%, but that usually exposes data artifacts like white dot crawl when watching SD channels), and maximize use of the full 16x9 screen. Actually, you'll probably end up with MORE image in that 16x9 screen than you started with (because you're trimming overscan toward 0%), which actually has the effect of reducing the size of things you see in that 16x9 screen but also visibly increasing apparent "resolution" and "sharpness". It's very satisfying when you're done.


You will play with the three sets of adjustors repeatedly, trying to get it just right. And when you finally really do zero in on the proper values for your set it will be obvious because now just one +/- click for any of the items clearly always makes it "worse".


In my experience, it took adjustments to all three groups (as you can see in my Excel spreadsheet, where I show both "service manual default" as well as "my final setting" for each of the crucial horizontal/vertical geometry adjustors in these three groups.


At least that's how it worked on the 34XBR960, where MID3 is "functional". It just may work differently on the 36XS955. I know for a fact that my cousin's older 34XBR800 doesn't have a MID3, so when I was adjusting his set I had to use its MID1 values which seemed to perform similar functions as MID3 on the XBR960. Maybe there's some similar subtle difference on the 36XS955.

 

overscan.zip 9.4423828125k . file


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Eric_S* /forum/post/19014249
> 
> 
> I have successfully corrected the overscan on my XS955!



Excellent!




> Quote:
> The image is much brighter and sharper now as an added bonus to seeing the whole image. I suppose it's because there is more energy from the scanning electron guns inside being focused in a smaller area than before.



Probably you're seeing more image (wait until you see those score bars during ball games, or info crawls on news channels, etc., and realize just exactly how much information there really was to be seen... including OUTSIDE what was the old image perimeter you were looking at before your tweaks).


Also, everything inside the constant screen size is now somewhat smaller (since you have more image in that screen) although there's more to look at, which has an automatic "sharpening" effect to our eyes and brains.




> Quote:
> I did this by adjusting the VPOS, VSIZ, HPOS, HSIZ setting in group 2170D. I adjusted it as small as could, but it still cut off part of the screen.



In my own case with my XBR960, it wasn't just size and positioning in the horizontal and vertical directions which required adjusting... it was also centering.


So I had to play with VPOS, VSIZ and VCEN (2170D-1), along with HCNT, HPOS, HSIZ (2170D-2), and then VDHP, VHDS, VDVE and VDVS (MID3).


I also worked on tweaking pin cushion and corners, to get as much rectangularity and linearity on vertical and horizontal edges as I could. I cannot tolerate "bowing" and "curvature" at the corners of my screen.




> Quote:
> From what I can tell the difference in the two sets of screen adjustments is that the first one is the size of the actual raster, and the other is a sort of digital image resizing to fit the image onto the raster.



I always describe it like with Photoshop... "background", and "image". If the background's not large enough you lose image (like cropping). If the background's too large you have extra black space with no image on it. If the image's too small you're not taking advantage of all the screen real estate. If the image's too large then the smaller background will result in loss (crop) on the edges of the image.


Fairly delicate process of adjusting three tweaks all together, but eventually you do zero in on where just +/- one click on anything obviously causes you to say "no... that's worse". Now you know you're done.





> Quote:
> I have lined them up closely, but they do not line up pixel to pixel. Will this cause any negativity?



This is an analog set, and is therefore not pixel-perfect.


I'd say just get as close as you can, so that you're really happy... and be done with it.


ENJOY!


----------



## The Lizard King




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/19014533
> 
> 
> Well I can't speak firsthand about the 36XS955, although the service manual says it applies to the common DA-4 chassis shared with the 34XBR960. But I don't think this doesn't necessarily mean that all particulars of the Service Menu or corresponding electronics work identically across all models in the product family.
> 
> 
> Furthermore, I've read feedback from other Forum members (on this and related threads, for the 960) that they suggest against using MID3 for adjustment of geometry. Some kind of "risk", or "hazard", or "damage"... or some such discussion.
> 
> 
> Personally, I don't understand any of this. Lacks the ring of truth to me, else why would Sony have invented MID3 at all?
> 
> 
> Anyway, I can simply say that for me using 2170D-1 for vertical size/centering/positioning of the "background", and using 2170D-2 for horizontal size/centering/positioning of the "background", and using MID3 for vertical/horizontal size/centering/positioning of the "foreground image on top of the background"... well that was how I got my picture to look the way it does.
> 
> 
> Of course you should be looking at a proper test pattern (*see BMP inside of attached OVERSCAN.ZIP*) when doing these three tweaks. And you'll go back and forth, one "click" at a time while watching a horizontal or vertical edge move in or out of your screen, so that you can clearly see what you're accomplishing by a plus or minus tweak, and whether that's "better" or "worse" than before. The extreme edge of the image (in the "foreground") may disappear when you shrink the "background" a bit, so you have to play with both foreground and background in order to maximize the visible image, reduce overscan to 1-2% (or maybe even 0%, but that usually exposes data artifacts like white dot crawl when watching SD channels), and maximize use of the full 16x9 screen. Actually, you'll probably end up with MORE image in that 16x9 screen than you started with (because you're trimming overscan toward 0%), which actually has the effect of reducing the size of things you see in that 16x9 screen but also visibly increasing apparent "resolution" and "sharpness". It's very satisfying when you're done.
> 
> 
> You will play with the three sets of adjustors repeatedly, trying to get it just right. And when you finally really do zero in on the proper values for your set it will be obvious because now just one +/- click for any of the items clearly always makes it "worse".
> 
> 
> In my experience, it took adjustments to all three groups (as you can see in my Excel spreadsheet, where I show both "service manual default" as well as "my final setting" for each of the crucial horizontal/vertical geometry adjustors in these three groups.
> 
> 
> At least that's how it worked on the 34XBR960, where MID3 is "functional". It just may work differently on the 36XS955. I know for a fact that my cousin's older 34XBR800 doesn't have a MID3, so when I was adjusting his set I had to use its MID1 values which seemed to perform similar functions as MID3 on the XBR960. Maybe there's some similar subtle difference on the 36XS955.



So far with my KD-36XS955, I've only adjusted the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 settings based upon the 1.33:1 cross-hatch pattern on the DVE DVD. I just can't figure out how MID3 works at all, though. I'm happy with my adjustments insofar that my overscan for TV (ATSC OTA), Component 5 (LaserDisc deinterlaced to 480p with a Faroudja NRS scaler), and HDMI 7 (Blu-ray and Dish Network HD DVR using an A/B switch) are minimized.


However, when watching 4:3 content in the 16:9 frame with the ATSC tuner, the screen mode of "zoom" still cuts off WAY too much of the 4:3 frame. The SD channels look fine, as I adjusted them with the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 settings, but the zoom of the 16:9 HD channels still cuts off too much picture. I haven't been able to figure out how to overcome this yet. Have you solved this problem, Eric_S?


Finally, how do you get that cross-hatch OVERSCAN.ZIP file that you just posted displayed onto your screen? I'm guessing the Memory Stick slot. Regardless, will this particular cross-hatch pattern do anything different for adjusting the set than the cross-hatch pattern on the DVE DVD?


TLK


----------



## DSperber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Lizard King* /forum/post/19014749
> 
> 
> Finally, how do you get that cross-hatch OVERSCAN.ZIP file that you just posted displayed onto your screen? I'm guessing the Memory Stick slot. Regardless, will this particular cross-hatch pattern do anything different for adjusting the set than the cross-hatch pattern on the DVE DVD?



That BMP is a true 1920x1080 16x9 test pattern, produced by Sonera's "DisplayMate for Windows, Video Edition" on my PC. I have an ATI video card along with a DVI-to-component adapter and connected my PC to my XBR960 using a long component video cable.


You said your DVE test pattern was 4:3 (and no better than 480p), though you probably stretched it for use on the 16:9 set. The DisplayMate pattern is native 16x9, and 1920x1080 resolution. Note that there is a very tiny (perhaps 1 pixel?, but for sure at 1920x1080 resolution) dot at the center of each square in the entire pattern, which is fabulous for adjusting convergence throughout the screen. Poor convergence will show up as the familiar red/green/blue "ghosts" around that should-be-white dot, and having them uniformly splattered over the entire 16x9 screen is wonderfully useful..


I suspect you can put it on a memory stick and use it that way on your XS955, though I've never actually used the memory stick input on my XBR960.


NOTE: if you have a 16x9 LCD monitor on your computer, you can also display that BMP I posted with any image viewer on your computer in full-screen (no borders or toolbars), if you want to examine (and adjust if necessary, if you monitor has controls) your own computer video. Of course with a pixel-perfect LCD monitor there should be no need for adjustment. But I certainly used the 4:3 version of that same pattern to tweak my IBM P92, P96 and P275 monitors (they're old but gorgeous Sony Trinitron-based CRT monitors).


----------



## The Lizard King




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/19014994
> 
> 
> That BMP is a true 1920x1080 16x9 test pattern, produced by Sonera's "DisplayMate for Windows, Video Edition" on my PC. *I have an ATI video card along with a DVI-to-component adapter and connected my PC to my XBR960 using a long component video cable.*



Aha! Okay, that's how you did it. I don't have this capability presently, sadly. I'll look into figuring out how though.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DSperber* /forum/post/19014994
> 
> 
> You said your DVE test pattern was 4:3 (and no better than 480p), though you probably stretched it for use on the 16:9 set. The DisplayMate pattern is native 16x9, and 1920x1080 resolution. Note that there is a very tiny (perhaps 1 pixel?, but for sure at 1920x1080 resolution) dot at the center of each square in the entire pattern, which is fabulous for adjusting convergence throughout the screen. Poor convergence will show up as the familiar red/green/blue "ghosts" around that should-be-white dot, and having them uniformly splattered over the entire 16x9 screen is wonderfully useful..



Since the KD-36XS955 is a 4:3 set, I went with the 4:3 test pattern from the DVE DVD. I will mess with the 16:9 anamorphic test pattern today. Maybe, I need to invest in the DVE Blu-ray. I bought my DVE as a HD DVD/DVD flipper. Obviously, the HD DVD side doesn't do me any good!


I will look into the convergence issue to see if my set is properly calibrated, or not. Thanks.


TLK


----------



## ShowbizPizza

I recently bought a Sony 34HS510 and have followed DSperber's advice on adjusting overscan and geometry, and have achieved outstanding results. I had to use the geometry/crosshatch patterns on the DVE DVD and Blu-Ray to get everything set up, since I didn't have access to anything else resembling a crosshatch pattern. As far as I know, I haven't seen any loss in resolution or picture quality, however....



I also have a copy of the service manual for the 34HS510 and was wondering about something I read in there. In the service manual section 2-9.1. NTSC (DRC) Full Mode Adjustment, there is a little note that says: "Make sure that the picture size is within specs. Vertical size

is 11.8 ± 0.1 sq. and horizontal size is 15.8 ± 0.1 sq."


Maybe I am missing the obvious here, but what exactly does that mean? What is the "sq." abbreviation they are talking about?


Then later on in section 2-9.2. 1080I HD Mode Adjustment, it says:" Adjust the geometry similar to Full DRC mode. Vertical size is 11.7

± 0.1 sq. and horizontal size is 15.6 ± 0.1 sq., if monoscope signal is

available. Otherwise, set the Vertical size to 91.0 ± 0.6% scan and

Horizontal size as 91.0 ± 0.6% scan."


Again, I don't really know what this means, other than that it has to do with the appropriate range for the ratio between your horizontal and vertical sizes, so that the geometry is spot on. I just don't really understand the math and the terminology.


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ShowbizPizza* /forum/post/19029722
> 
> 
> .... however....
> 
> 
> I also have a copy of the service manual for the 34HS510 and was wondering about something I read in there. In the service manual section 2-9.1. NTSC (DRC) Full Mode Adjustment, there is a little note that says: "Make sure that the picture size is within specs. Vertical size
> 
> is 11.8 ± 0.1 sq. and horizontal size is 15.8 ± 0.1 sq."
> 
> 
> Maybe I am missing the obvious here, but what exactly does that mean? What is the "sq." abbreviation they are talking about?
> 
> 
> Then later on in section 2-9.2. 1080I HD Mode Adjustment, it says:" Adjust the geometry similar to Full DRC mode. Vertical size is 11.7
> 
> ± 0.1 sq. and horizontal size is 15.6 ± 0.1 sq., if monoscope signal is
> 
> available. Otherwise, set the Vertical size to 91.0 ± 0.6% scan and
> 
> Horizontal size as 91.0 ± 0.6% scan."
> 
> 
> Again, I don't really know what this means, other than that it has to do with the appropriate range for the ratio between your horizontal and vertical sizes, so that the geometry is spot on. I just don't really understand the math and the terminology.



The "sq" is in reference to a standardized HD monoscope test signal used for geometry adjustments. The one referenced in the service manual is 16 x 12 "squares". Don't be concerned that this doesn't match the standard 16:9 ratio, the "squares" are actually rectangular. A service manual for a previous model, 34XBR2, explains that if a cross-hatch pattern is used then a calculated 90% is to be used. This would result in 5% overscan all around, which may be a little much. Your reference of 91% +/- 0.6% will result in 4-5%. I generally shoot for 2-3%.


----------



## ShowbizPizza

When working on my 34HS510, I noticed that the "MTRX" setting always defaults to a value of "0" whenever I input a 1080i, 720p, or 480p signal. It does this on the DVI input as well as both of the component video inputs. I searched this thread and read through all the information about the MTRX setting doing the "auto-switch" when people are outside the service menu. However, it appears my tv is not doing the "auto-switch" for MTRX either inside or outside the SM.


In other words, unless I am mistaken, my tv keeps using the SD color matrix even if I am inputting a HD signal. I checked using color filters when outside the SM and inputting a HD signal, and sure enough, it was displaying the same color matrix as if I input a 480p signal(the same one as when the value is the default of "0" inside the SM).


Every time I am in the SM, and I manually change the "MTRX" value to "1", I can see a significant change in the color bar patterns on the DVE Blu-Ray. The differences are especially noticeable in the cyan and green boxes. However, those colors are not being displayed whenever I input a HD signal outside the SM. The auto switch isn't working for me - even if I try to write/save the "1" setting for MTRX in the SM.


Is there anything I can do to get my tv to display the right color matrix for HD sources?


----------



## WithAlligators

I would like to fiddle around with some of the horizontal geometry problems on both my 36xs955 and my 40xbr800. I also have a very minor greenie on my 800 I'd like to play with. The 955 has a subtle upward bow in the middle of th lower part of the screen. It's noticable with the HD bars up. The 800 has the standard left side of the screen sag. I've got the back off of both of them and tried to move around some of the magnets but no fix. Can anyone point me to a guide on how to fix some of these distortions? How about where to get a magnet kit? I was hoping the 800 would have a simple fix like a magnet had fallen off on the left side during a move since the distortion is so uniform but no dice.

Cheers,

Alex


----------



## salty

I was just tinkering around with the service menu on an old CRT monitor, and I found that it stores a record of how many hours it has been on. In this case it was 18,020. Is there anything like that in this service menu? I have a 34xs955 and was thinking it would be interesting to know.


----------



## ARandomPooka

Not sure what term I'm looking for to describe what's happening with my set, but I've been searching like mad for the last week and have not found any reference to my problem. Thought I'd ask and see if I'm just doing it wrong and should go back to RTFM stage!


I have a kv30hs420, which has great picture geometry, at least on my HDMI input, since I haven't gotten around to tweaking the other inputs yet. So much to learn and do! Thank you all, by the way, and KenTech for starting this thread.


The problem is that red, green, and blue are all horizontally separated from each other by almost a quarter inch. Red to the left one quarter, green in the center, and blue to the right one quarter.


Each image is clear and straight, but it's like I'm projecting three separate images alongside each other instead of on top of each other as it's supposed to be. Colors so far look pretty decent in the areas where they overlap, but I'm not going to test too much or tweak the color levels until I can get them lined up proper.


Is there a code in the Service Menu that I am overlooking for adjusting the entire red, green, and blue display horizontally? D-CONV has provisions for minor tweaks in specific areas, but I can't seem to find a way to shift the entire R,G, or B horizontally to allow them to match back up.


D-CONV didn't allow me a great enough adjustment to move the image far enough to overlap properly. Sorry if this has been answered already. I've been searching and searching and learning amazing new things. Just haven't come across this one.


Afraid it's going to be a magnet issue and nothing I can do from the SM. Since the TV itself was completely free, I don't mind TOO much if I have to go have it serviced, but would much prefer attempting to fix the problem myself.


----------



## The Lizard King




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *salty* /forum/post/19251884
> 
> 
> I was just tinkering around with the service menu on an old CRT monitor, and I found that it stores a record of how many hours it has been on. In this case it was 18,020. Is there anything like that in this service menu? I have a 34xs955 and was thinking it would be interesting to know.



What code told you the hours of usage?


TLK


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ARandomPooka* /forum/post/19347665
> 
> 
> Not sure what term I'm looking for to describe what's happening with my set, but I've been searching like mad for the last week and have not found any reference to my problem.......The problem is that red, green, and blue are all horizontally separated from each other by almost a quarter inch. Red to the left one quarter, green in the center, and blue to the right one quarter......



If this problem is across the entire screen, this is likely a *static* convergence issue. There are physical adjustments on the yoke for static convergence. Check out this service manual excerpt and read section 2-2 Convergence. Be sure to disable the dynamic convergence function per the first step of 2-2.1. but you can ignore the statement about default values for beam landing. You may also have to go through the physical alignments in 2-3. As a matter of fact, 2-3.2. TLH Plate Adjustment looks to be close to your issue.


Use a crosshatch pattern as mentioned and make small adjustments Good luck.


----------



## ARandomPooka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raouliii* /forum/post/19353396
> 
> 
> If this problem is across the entire screen, this is likely a *static* convergence issue. There are physical adjustments on the yoke for static convergence. Check out this service manual excerpt and read section 2-2 Convergence. Be sure to disable the dynamic convergence function per the first step of 2-2.1. but you can ignore the statement about default values for beam landing. You may also have to go through the physical alignments in 2-3. As a matter of fact, 2-3.2. TLH Plate Adjustment looks to be close to your issue.
> 
> 
> Use a crosshatch pattern as mentioned and make small adjustments Good luck.



Thank you for the quick answer! Hopefully this will do the trick. When the house goes to bed and isn't watching DBZ Kai on the TV, I'll have to pop it open and see what I can do.


Will keep you posted on this, just in case anyone else has this issue and wants to know how it went.


Thanks again! And I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


----------



## ARandomPooka

Trying to locate a service manual for my set is more than a chore, so thank you, raouliii, for sending me an excerpt from yours, by the way.


----------



## ARandomPooka

Last post for a little while. Eternal thanks to Raouliii. It ended up being the Horizontal static control. A simple turn of a screw and I'm back to where I can start tweaking hardcore with the test patterns for geometry and color.


Now my absolutely free TV looks like it just came off the factory floor. Which, as we've learned isn't exactly optimal. So time to put the time in on making it BETTER than factory


----------



## salty




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Lizard King* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What code told you the hours of usage?
> 
> 
> TLK



It was an old Nokia 445xi monitor. If I recall correctly, I held down the menu button when I powered it up. It then prompted me for a code 7177 I think it was. Found that info somewhere on the Internet...anyway, I'm pretty sure the Sony doesn't have that feature. Too bad-it would be cool to know!


----------



## OldTimerCanuck

Hello young and old! I have been scanning this thread as much as possible and picked myself up a very nicely kept KV-27FS120 and would like to tinker with this when the wife is off doing wifey things! All I really need to know is how do i get from one option to another in the service menu? do I press the Vol up/down buttons or do I use another button? I was a long time Toshiba user and could fly through the service menu with ease but the Sony's seem to be slightly different. I'm not completely new to these things but with those small questions answered I can be on my way to tinkering heaven!


OldTimerCanuck


----------



## jsmith967

So I have read lots in this thread and it is very helpful. I have actually performed many of the service menu tweaks already and my XS955 34" 16:9 really shines now! However, when I finished all the corrections, I started to notice an error that comes-and-goes depending on whats being displayed. I feel like it is not randomly displayed, but as of currently, have not deduced what exactly causes the error. Perhaps this is a defect in my set or some setting that I must tweak in the service menu. Below is two pictures I took of Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. Notice has there are a coupld of large blue-red horizontal bands across the screen. Like I said, they're not always on there, but especially in dark scenes with highlights, it is very annoying and distracting. Any help or input would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!


Link to photo or error:
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/...uestion002.jpg


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jsmith967* /forum/post/19882057
> 
> 
> So I have read lots in this thread and it is very helpful. I have actually performed many of the service menu tweaks already and my XS955 34" 16:9 really shines now! However, when I finished all the corrections, I started to notice an error that comes-and-goes depending on whats being displayed. I feel like it is not randomly displayed, but as of currently, have not deduced what exactly causes the error. Perhaps this is a defect in my set or some setting that I must tweak in the service menu. Below is two pictures I took of Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. Notice has there are a coupld of large blue-red horizontal bands across the screen. Like I said, they're not always on there, but especially in dark scenes with highlights, it is very annoying and distracting. Any help or input would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!
> 
> 
> Link to photo or error:
> http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/...uestion002.jpg



I've seen that before and I remember fixing it on my set but, I don't remember the codes I adjusted off the top of my head. Possibly in the MID1,2, or 3 set of codes.


Come to think of it I had to adjust a few set of codes to fix that issue.


----------



## jsmith967

I fixed it! My image was being scanned too far off the raster, causing distortion. I simply shrunk the image size using the regular controls (2170-D) and it went away. Thanks for responding!


----------



## Dark_Planet

I just got the 34HS420 and its great except one annoying issue.


For example.....If I'm playing RDR or la noir or GTA4 and I run left and right really fast everything in the game has a nasty 3D look without glasses.


Kind of like bad motion judder and double imaging.


If I stand still in the game the ghosting doesn't occur.


What section of the service menu would I need to change to fix this horrible problem??


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dark_Planet* /forum/post/20616377
> 
> 
> I just got the 34HS420 and its great except one annoying issue.
> 
> 
> For example.....If I'm playing RDR or la noir or GTA4 and I run left and right really fast everything in the game has a nasty 3D look without glasses.
> 
> 
> Kind of like bad motion judder and double imaging.
> 
> 
> If I stand still in the game the ghosting doesn't occur.
> 
> 
> What section of the service menu would I need to change to fix this horrible problem??



If it's what I think it is, double imaging, there isn't anything you can do. That sounds like the fact that the games are running at 30fps or lower. I get the same thing on Final Fantasy 13.


Anytime you send a 30fps signal to a 60hz screen you will get this although, you normally only see it with video games. On my CRT what helped to alleviate the problem was to do a manual focus adjustment. Get the focus and convergence of the set as good as possible, it should be computer monitor like in appearance so that you can read fine text even at 1080i from 5-10 feet away. You will still have the same problems but your eyes won't be as strained from seeing it.


I would imagine running the game in an interlaced mode (1080i) would help, since you get frame blending but, in practice I don't think it makes much of a difference.


Not that it has anything to do with it but, if this is the set you mainly play games on then keep in mind the Xbox360 has a gamma problem so some games will never look correct. The PC and PS3 both use sRGB gamma curves where the Xbox360 does not as it uses what is called a "Piecewise sRGB" or it badly approximates sRGB.


----------



## doveman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/20617140
> 
> 
> Anytime you send a 30fps signal to a 60hz screen you will get this although, you normally only see it with video games. On my CRT what helped to alleviate the problem was to do a manual focus adjustment. Get the focus and convergence of the set as good as possible, it should be computer monitor like in appearance so that you can read fine text even at 1080i from 5-10 feet away. You will still have the same problems but your eyes won't be as strained from seeing it.



I run my PC at 60hz into my XBR800 but most of the video content I watch is either 24/25 or 50fps and I don't really notice any problems, although I guess that's probably because the PC is doing something clever!


I struggle to read text from 6ft away in 720p though, which I just assumed was because the TV doesn't have as fine dot pitch as a PC monitor. Perhaps I just need to work on the focus and convergence some more though!


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doveman* /forum/post/20617219
> 
> 
> I run my PC at 60hz into my XBR800 but most of the video content I watch is either 24/25 or 50fps and I don't really notice any problems, although I guess that's probably because the PC is doing something clever!



I don't notice it as much when playing video content. I assume because the material was filmed at 24fps so your TV will use Reverse 3-2 Pulldown to help correct it. For some reason though, I see it very easily on video games that run at 30fps. Perhaps someone else understands the technicality of it.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doveman* /forum/post/20617219
> 
> 
> I struggle to read text from 6ft away in 720p though, which I just assumed was because the TV doesn't have as fine dot pitch as a PC monitor. Perhaps I just need to work on the focus and convergence some more though!



Hard to say, I do have slightly better than 20/20 vision though. I normally keep my HTPC set at 720p on my 955 set. Even though I can read text at 1080i the flicker makes the text a bit hard on my eyes. However, I can see fine text from my HTPC very clearly on my TV. My eyes are about 6 feet from the screen.


That isn't to say it looks anywhere near as nice as my 24" Sony GDM FW900 as my TV has tons of problems that make it a train wreck, such as, convergence errors that can only be fixed with magnets, center focus is much better than the edges of the screen, geometry is still bad off as there is bending of the image on the sides and corners, I also have this flickering issue that comes and goes probably due to failing parts inside the TV itself, and I need to have it gray-scale calibrated again.


Took a pic of the screen with some relatively fine text on it at 1080i. Keep in mind 720p is far more readable and is normally the resolution I use for my PC. That said I don't use the TV when using my PC except for games or video sites like youtube. Ignore the terrible focusing on the corners, minor overscan and, dreadful bowing/bending of the screen.









http://www.fotoshack.us/fotos/80520159small.png


----------



## fahrenheit

On the super fine pitch capable models, 720p signals are downscaled to 540p.


The main advantage with using 720p sources is if the content is 50/60fps. You lose resolution by choosing 720p over 1080i, but you retain framerate.


Some other CRT TV manufacturers choose to upconvert 720p signals to 1080i, which keeps resolution at the expense of framerate (because you can't resolve 50/60 full frames per second with an interlaced source.


----------



## Dark_Planet




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/20617140
> 
> 
> If it's what I think it is, double imaging, there isn't anything you can do. That sounds like the fact that the games are running at 30fps or lower. I get the same thing on Final Fantasy 13.
> 
> 
> Anytime you send a 30fps signal to a 60hz screen you will get this although, you normally only see it with video games. On my CRT what helped to alleviate the problem was to do a manual focus adjustment. Get the focus and convergence of the set as good as possible, it should be computer monitor like in appearance so that you can read fine text even at 1080i from 5-10 feet away. You will still have the same problems but your eyes won't be as strained from seeing it.
> 
> 
> I would imagine running the game in an interlaced mode (1080i) would help, since you get frame blending but, in practice I don't think it makes much of a difference.
> 
> 
> Not that it has anything to do with it but, if this is the set you mainly play games on then keep in mind the Xbox360 has a gamma problem so some games will never look correct. The PC and PS3 both use sRGB gamma curves where the Xbox360 does not as it uses what is called a "Piecewise sRGB" or it badly approximates sRGB.




You were RIGHT!!


I popped in COD4 and GT5 that run at 60fps on PS3 and the double imaging wasn't there!!


So why the heck are some 2011 games still being at crappy 30fps or below??


I can only pray that battlefield 3 will have a good framerate.


By the way I tried tuning in the focus...etc. but it didn't affect the ghosting on the lower fps games.


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dark_Planet* /forum/post/20618313
> 
> 
> 
> By the way I tried tuning in the focus...etc. but it didn't affect the ghosting on the lower fps games.



It won't really affect it as in remove it or reduce it, so to speak but, it can make it easier to digest and live with in my opinion.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On the super fine pitch capable models, 720p signals are downscaled to 540p.



My set will accept quite a few different signals from my PC and when I set my graphics card to NOT scale, 720p fills the screen properly. So when you say 540p I assume you mean 1280x540 pixels?


I can send an 1152x864 30Hz signal and I get black bars as I should with an 1152x864 pixel image projected inside a 1920x1080i frame.


I can also send an 1176x664 60hz signal and I also get black bars, as I should with 1176x664 pixels projected inside a 1280x720p frame.


I can also set my graphics card to scale and I can manually scale the horizontal and vertical pixels with a slider and 1280x720 fills the screen.


----------



## fahrenheit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NextGen* /forum/post/20618442
> 
> 
> My set will accept quite a few different signals from my PC and when I set my graphics card to NOT scale, 720p fills the screen properly. So when you say 540p I assume you mean 1280x540 pixels?
> 
> 
> I can send an 1152x864 30Hz signal and I get black bars as I should with an 1152x864 pixel image projected inside a 1920x1080i frame.
> 
> 
> I can also send an 1176x664 60hz signal and I also get black bars, as I should with 1176x664 pixels projected inside a 1280x720p frame.
> 
> 
> I can also set my graphics card to scale and I can manually scale the horizontal and vertical pixels with a slider and 1280x720 fills the screen.



What you put in is definitely not what you get out.


My 36" could accept all of the resolutions you mentioned but when you actually feed a test pattern with alternating black and white (or black and yellow bee stripes), you get a muddy grey (or baby poo) amalgam.


If lines aren't being thrown out, then you should be able to make a 1280x720 bee stripe pattern (single pixel high horizontal stripes) and resolve every one of those unique lines.


It works with 1980x1080, but 720p never gave me all the lines.


----------



## Frank J Manrique

Are there any techs within the Riverside/San Bernardino areas in So. California that do in-home repairs to these behemoth tvs?

Mine took a dive in '08 (power supply problems) and been idle since I bought a Pioneer Elite Pro-151D KURO plasma display to replace it with back then.


Would like to get it fixed if possible...


-thts


----------



## Dark_Planet

Today was the first day I watched a widescreen movie on my 34hs420 with blackbars (the island ) and I noticed the black bars looked sort of warped.


I made a picture of how it looks.


Is there an easy fix in the service menu?


I just need to bend the screen down instead of up so the bars can be straight.

*UPDATE: I changed the VPIN settings and it made the bottom bar straight but it made the top bar warped.


It's not that big of a deal anyways....I will just live with it since most CRT's aren't perfect.*

*I put the VPIN settings back to default 24.*


----------



## raouliii




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dark_Planet* /forum/post/20621925
> 
> 
> ......Is there an easy fix in the service menu?
> 
> 
> I just need to bend the screen down instead of up so the bars can be straight.
> 
> *UPDATE: I changed the VPIN settings and it made the bottom bar straight but it made the top bar warped.
> 
> 
> It's not that big of a deal anyways....I will just live with it since most CRT's aren't perfect.*
> 
> *I put the VPIN settings back to default 24.*



You could try a combination of VCEN and VPIN.


Using VCEN: Adjust to make the bowing of the top and bottom lines equal.


Using VPIN: Adjust as necessary to make the horizontal lines as straight as possible.


----------



## ADU

^ That upward bow is fixable, but it'll probably require tweaking a few other controls than just VCEN and VPIN. If you want to go down that road, just say so. However, there's a chance it may foul up the geometry on some other signals.


----------



## ADU

Some patterns for geo adjustments in 720x480 NTSC DVD resolution.


Grid divided into 1/2's...


2.5% Overscan











5% Overscan











(Note: you must be logged in to see the attached images in these posts.)


----------



## ADU

Grid divided into 1/4's.


2.5% Overscan











5% Overscan


----------



## ADU

Grid divided into 1/8's.


~2.5% Overscan











5% Overscan


----------



## NextGen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fahrenheit* /forum/post/20618215
> 
> 
> On the super fine pitch capable models, 720p signals are downscaled to 540p.
> 
> 
> The main advantage with using 720p sources is if the content is 50/60fps. You lose resolution by choosing 720p over 1080i, but you retain framerate.
> 
> 
> Some other CRT TV manufacturers choose to upconvert 720p signals to 1080i, which keeps resolution at the expense of framerate (because you can't resolve 50/60 full frames per second with an interlaced source.



Old post I know and sorry for the bump but, does the information get thrown out or somehow resampled? Just asking because 720p pc games seem to get an antoaliasing benefit and keep very fine detail. Its a win win situation.


And where can I get a beestripe pattern or what does one look like ao I could make one myself


----------



## ADU

NextGen,


FWIW, my 34XBR800 converts 720p inputs to 1080i, not 540p.


There are different ways of scaling images, and I'm not quite sure how the Sony CRTs do it. There are various interpolation and resampling techniques that can be used though, so the extra lines don't simply have to be discarded when downscaling. Some examples here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_scaling


----------



## teamdoa

I don't suppose anyone knows why my CRT wont remember any changes when I adjust the screen position, ie height, width etc. It remembers them when I put it in standby, but when I switch off completely it forgets them.


The model is a SONY KV-16WS1U


----------



## ADU

^Not familiar with your model, but after making changes in the SM on my Sony HDTV, I also need to press a combination of keys on the remote to SAVE/STORE the new settings.


----------



## ADU

Following are a new set of grids for making geometry adjustments.


Instead of a black background, these new patterns use a 15% gray background to better approximate the average picture level (APL) of video over time. This should slightly improve the accuracy of pincushion, and also horizontal and vertical sizing adjustments for typical video content.

*Overscan*


The patterns can also be used for overscan adjustment, if you want a 2.5% or 5% overscan.


(*Minor Note:* The 2.5% overscan pattern that's divided into 8ths is not quite as accurate for overscan adjustment as the other patterns because there was no way to perfectly divide the width of the image by 8, and leave an exact 2.5% on the sides. Consequently, it's probably closer to 2.75% or 3% on the sides.)

*Surround Reference*


Used properly, the patterns can also function as a crude ambient/surround reference for high-quality home video content (Blu-ray, DVD, OTA broadcasts, etc.). For direct-view displays in the Region 1 US market*, I generally recommend surround levels in the 13% to 20% gray range for best viewing, with 15% being about the average for well-mastered DVDs & Blu-rays. (*Video content in other parts of the world may be brighter.) An easy way to accommplish that is to adjust the Picture/Contrast control on your display so that a full field gray pattern in that range approximates the average surround levels in the room around and behind the TV. Calibration discs can be very handy for this kind of thing. The better ones should include full field gray patterns which increase in steps of 5% or 10%.


There's alot of variation in video content these days though, which is why I try to accomodate a range of adjustment on my TV between about 13% to 20%. Most professionally mastered/color-corrected video content in the US is on the darker side. IMO, a 15% gray is a pretty good target reference for that.


However, games, commercials, music videos, anime (Japanese animation), and older NTSC material can be considerably brighter, and quite a strain on the eyes to watch with such dark surround levels. So something closer to a 20% (or even brighter) gray surround reference would not be unreasonable for such material.


If you also use your display as a computer or web interface, then you may need to accomodate an even wider range of contrast adjustment. The APL of computer content is about 35%, and the sRGB standard (which is basically now the "official" color space of the web) uses a "gray world" assumption for it's viewing environment, which is essentially the brightness of a 50% gray on your screen. For optimum viewing of computer and web content, the Picture/Contrast setting on your display (or the room lighting) should be adjusted so that a 35% to 50% full field gray on the screen is a close match to your room lighting levels.


Again, you should be able to find full field gray patterns like these on many of the popular calibration discs (or you could just make your own with Photoshop or some other paint program). In the final analysis though, your eyes are really the best judge. So if the picture seems too bright (or dark) with the above rules of thumb, then you should turn the contrast down.

*"Full-Swing" Vs. "Studio-Swing" Levels*


There are two versions of the grid patterns posted below. The first series uses 0-255 "full-swing" RGB levels. And the second series is compressed to 16-235 "studio-swing" RGB levels. For geometry adjustments, they should both work about the same.


If you want to get picky though... then the correct set to use depends on how you display the images on your TV. I usually convert the patterns to a standard MPEG-2 DVD-Video format (which is why they're all in 720x480 NTSC DVD-Video resolution). And the software that I use to encode the files into DVD-Video compliant MPEG-2 automatically compresses the palette in the images to 16-235 video levels (which is what commercial video DVDs use). So I feed the MPEG encoding software patterns and images authored in 0-255 full-swing levels to ensure proper output levels on my TV. Other MPEG/DVD authoring programs may work differently though, and give you different options for compressing the video levels.


IMO, properly converting the patterns to the DVD-Video format is probably the most reliable way to go. If you simply display them as still files (JPEG, etc.) from a flash drive or disc, then the results may be less predictable, and you'll need to pay closer attention to black level settings (and possibly other image display settings) on both your player and TV to ensure that they display at the correct levels.


If you are trying to use them as an surround reference, then the correct output levels are important. If you are just using them for geometry adjustments though, then the difference should be more negligible.


----------



## ADU

2.5% Overscan, 0-255 "Full-Swing" Levels, Part 1:


----------



## ADU

2.5% Overscan, 0-255 "Full-Swing" Levels, Part 2:


----------



## ADU

5% Overscan, 0-255 "Full-Swing" Levels, Part 1:


----------



## ADU

5% Overscan, 0-255 "Full-Swing" Levels, Part 2:


----------



## ADU

2.5% Overscan, 16-235 "Studio-Swing" Levels, Part 1:


----------



## ADU

2.5% Overscan, 16-235 "Studio-Swing" Levels, Part 2:


----------



## ADU

5% Overscan, 16-235 "Studio-Swing" Levels, Part 1:


----------



## ADU

5% Overscan, 16-235 "Studio-Swing" Levels, Part 2:


----------



## sumguy99

I've got a few questions I hope someone can answer about these Sony codes:


1) Is it possible to enable PiP or 480p mode (for a few, or maybe some, many, most ?) Sony TVs using these codes if the TV did not come from the factory as a model that was capable of PiP or 480p?


2) I have a KV-36FS10 that was bought I think in late 1999 or early 2000. Will any of these codes (or generally, anything in this huge thread) be useful or applicable to that TV?


----------



## ADU

^ I'm havin a hard time finding info on this model (36FS10). Is it an HD or SD tube?


----------



## sumguy99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADU* /forum/post/21525368
> 
> 
> ^ I'm havin a hard time finding info on this model (36FS10). Is it an HD or SD tube?



It's a 36" Trinitron WEGA (flat-tube). If you do a google search for "KV-36FS10" I'm sure you'll get lots of hits.


This might be a Canadian model number. It was bought in Canada. I *think* it's one model level down from XBR (I think it cost a few hundred dollars less than the equivalent XBR model). It was made in September 1999. These are not hi-def TV's. 4:3 ratio, 480 lines.


I think the equivalent XBR model had PiP, 480P mode, and 3-line comb filter.


Here's a Sony link for it:

http://esupport.sony.com/CA/perl/mod...l?mdl=KV36FS10 


These models are closely related to it:


KV-36FV15

KV-36XBR250


Those models have something called "S-Link" that my model doesn't.


----------



## ADU

I can't speak with authority on this, since I've never owned an SD Sony tube (only HD). But 480p would require a higher scanrate than 480i (31.5 kHz versus 15.75 kHz). So it seems unlikely to me that you'd be able to convert a 480i tube to 480p by simply throwing some switch in the SM. 480p also requires add'l processing to de-interlace the image.


I do not recommend using 480p on the Sony HD tubes btw. IMO, it's more fatiguing to the eyes than using 1080i, and the phosphor persistence is worse. (Note: both the Progressive and Cinemotion settings for 480i inputs will display as 480p on the HD tubes. So I recommend avoiding these as well, if you can.)


----------



## ADU

It looks like the 36FS10 also predates "V-compression", which was added to alot of SD TVs later on to improve the picture quality of 16:9 video content (e.g. widescreen anamorphic DVDs).


If you can get into the SM on the TV, you might be able to "convert" it to a 16:9 TV by squeezing the video image with the vertical sizing controls. Then you could change the setting on your DVD player to 16:9, and watch widescreen anamorphic DVDs at full 480i resolution.


I did this on one of my older (non-Sony) 480i tubes, and it worked quite well. Only problem is you have to go back into the SM and switch the vertical controls back whenever you want to watch a regular 4:3 source properly, which was a PITA.


----------



## Rasuache

i recently did a factory reset via the service menu on my bravia ex320 and now the rgb signal off my virgin box is really fuzzy especially on the blacks and greys like on the on demand menu can anyone help / have any idea what would cause this maybe i pressed something in service menu by accident??


----------



## remoderi7

Hey there, im in the same position, trying to adjust my 34HS420, any luck for u ?

would u be kind enough to send the right values on the service menu for me ?

my tv colors looks horrible after a friend of mine trying to tweak it , what a genius ah


----------



## ADU

You should never reset the SM on the Sony HD CRTs, under any circumstances.


Resetting the SM will not restore the TV to the original settings when you bought it. It will erase all data in the SM, including settings/tweaks made at the factory which are crucial to the TV's basic operation.


NEVER...


EVER...


EVER...

*EVER*... reset the SM.


If that's what you've done, then I think these your basic options:


a) Try to find a professional calibrator who knows his way around the Sony CRTs, and thinks he can fix it (which is becoming somewhat hard to find).


b) Take it to a Sony authorized repair shop, and hope they know what they're doin.


c) Contact Sony Parts, and ask if they still have a "900" (ie fee-based) nonauthorized technical support line where you can get some help. (Note: you may need a copy of the service manual for this as well.)


d) Order a service manual and try to fix it yourself (which may make matters even worse if you are not a very technical person, because there aren't really any detailed instructions included in the service manuals).


e) Try to find someone else with the same model, who's written all their original settings down (like you should have done in the first place), and has the time to help you figure it all out.


f) Accept that you made an unfortunate mistake and look for another similar TV on Craigslist to replace it, or get a shiny new plasma or LED TV instead.


----------



## sumguy99

Getting back to my SD Wega (36FS10) - I get it that it might not be able (or even desirable) to enable 480p in the service menu (even if that were possible). Enabling V compression would be useful - has anyone ever seen that as a setting in the service menu?


What I'm really interested in is -> has Sony ever put PiP (enable/disable) in the service menu for any of these Wega TV's?


----------



## djvasco




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *xomoi* /forum/post/18569920
> 
> 
> Why is it that some service menu codes are locked or do nothing on smaller sony crts? I have a sony model kv-13m40 and another small sony crt in which some common values do nothing. Values such as hsiz, cpin, pamp, trap, and some other do nothing to change the geometry. The numbers can be adjusted but they do not change the picture. I assume that this is done intentionally since I have two sets in which those same values are locked. It's not that big of a deal, but I would like to know why it set this way.



I have this exact problem. I can't change the geometry of my old 20 inch Sony Trinitron because adjusting the HSIZ value does not change the picture at all. The HSIZ code seems to be locked.


I really need to unlock the HSIZ. Can anyone help me?


----------



## Partyslammer

I have a KV34XBR800 with a build date of Nov 2002 and I've noticed it recently shutting down while viewing. My initial guess is that it's the two IC parts that seem to be the typical cause of this sort of problem. However, when turning it on, it's inconsistent as far as how many "blinks" the red standby light flashes before it starts up. Sometimes it's as little as a couple up to 9 flashes. The other thing - the last couple times it's shut down, the screen kind of flashes to a near solid red as it shuts down. Removed the back and wound up spending a lot of time thoroughly cleaning out the dust. Checking the onscreen maintenance/status display, this is what I get:


Version 0 0 Service

F/A: 11111111 10111111

CBA: 11111111 10110001


Anyone have any ideas what that means?


----------



## jameslieb1

i have the kd-34xbr960. im using it for xbox.360 hdmi gaming. i switched hdpt to 0 and input lag went.away, but gave me a picture with part of the left chopped off, flunctuating brightness as stuff on the screen moves, and the infamous vertical right-to-left scrolling bar. i managed to fix the picture position thru the service menu but i still have those other 2 problems. plz help!


----------



## jillybran

.


----------



## jillybran

Thank you! This info helped me too


----------



## Vic12345

Hi any service mode tweaks for old sony kv36fs13? I've tried a lot of them.


----------



## turnkit

Oh, please somebody help!


I made my final service mode screen adjustments on my KD-34XBR970 and saved the parameters to non-volatile RAM (+) and within a second or so the screen flipped into a GRID PATTERN and the television started producing a TEST TONE!


Ah!!!

















Now when I turn on the set I can see my DVD component input for about one or two seconds but the television immediately switches to a blaring TEST TONE and this GRID TEST PATTERN.


I can go into service mode again but the whole time the tv's blares the test audio tone and the video input cannot be switched.


Any ideas???










I hope someone knows how to adjust this!


The internal grid pattern would have been really useful to know how to turn on when calibrating but now that I'm done I really need it off!


----------



## turnkit

Oh, and yes, I already tried unplugging the set for a few minutes and plugging it back in... it still came up and switched right into test tone mode.


While the service mode works, if I don't choose service mode I can't do simple things like change the volume level. I think I bricked my whole TV.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *turnkit*  /t/531494/the-sony-service-codes-articles-comments-discoveries/2940#post_22314602
> 
> 
> Oh, please somebody help!
> 
> I made my final service mode screen adjustments on my KD-34XBR970 and saved the parameters to non-volatile RAM (+) and within a second or so the screen flipped into a GRID PATTERN and the television started producing a TEST TONE!
> 
> Ah!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now when I turn on the set I can see my DVD component input for about one or two seconds but the television immediately switches to a blaring TEST TONE and this GRID TEST PATTERN.
> 
> I can go into service mode again but the whole time the tv's blares the test audio tone and the video input cannot be switched.
> 
> Any ideas???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope someone knows how to adjust this!
> 
> The internal grid pattern would have been really useful to know how to turn on when calibrating but now that I'm done I really need it off!


----------



## turnkit

Sorry for the noise! I found the solution here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/531494/the-sony-service-codes-articles-comments-discoveries/1700_100#post_7940621 
http://www.avsforum.com/t/531494/the-sony-service-codes-articles-comments-discoveries/1400_100#post_7472949 


THANK YOU AVSFORUM!


In the blue colored text section -- the QM section -- it's the service code PATN. It needs to be set to 0.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *turnkit*  /t/531494/the-sony-service-codes-articles-comments-discoveries/2900_100#post_22314608
> 
> 
> Oh, and yes, I already tried unplugging the set for a few minutes and plugging it back in... it still came up and switched right into test tone mode.
> 
> While the service mode works, if I don't choose service mode I can't do simple things like change the volume level. I think I bricked my whole TV.


----------



## kevers7290

Hey everyone. I'm having some focus issues with my KV-30HS420. The edges are _really_ blurry. I understand that these CRTs all have this to some degree, but I watch a lot of anime/subtitles movies and it is noticeable and annoying. I have used the service menu and made the screen size nearly perfect (as it too was off) and tried adjusting the "focus settings" like QPAM, QPAV etc. to no avail. I know others have posted with similar problems, but I was wondering if anyone else with this set had some service values that I could use to help with this focus issue. Feel free to reply or PM me.

Thanks.

*Edit:*

It appears that the focus problem extends beyond just the edges of the screen. The text on the XMB menu of my PS3 looks kind of blurry. Are there any service mode values that I can tweak to correct for this (preferably less invasive settings as I'm afraid of bricking my TV)? I would rather not open up this television as I'm not the most technologically inclined when it comes to this kind of thing.


----------



## banjo86

Hello! my tv model is a sony wega kv30hs420 does anyone know how to deal with a wave effect on bottom of the screen? it only appears on hd sources (component and HDMI) but not on 480i or 480p. I've tried adjusting it in the service menu but nothing seems to help.

EDIT: it only seems to appear at 1080i and not 720p.


----------



## jameslieb1

Im having a problem with my XBR960. There is a layer of static over the picture. This is regardless of source and the static goes over not only the actual video feed but also things like the user menu. I'm worried this might be a problem with something inside the set but does anyone know if this is something that can be fixed through the service menu? I'm really frustrates because I don't want to go through all the trouble of acquiring a new one of these. Thanks.


----------



## jassiji

Hi,


I searched this thread & cannot locate a similar problem.


My 34xbr960 remote has become unresponsive & the set is changing input to memory stick mode while watching TV.


First I thought it was my remote & changed the batteries, but using the manual controls does not help.


Is it toast or is there any solution?


I am watching Sony 40" Google TV but it's pathetic compared tomy XBR.


Can anyone point me to a thread where this has been discussed. Thanks.


----------



## NextGen

I have some new settings I've been tinkering with in regards to lower resolution video games.

Specifically PS1 which outputs 240p. The TV seems to scanrate convert the signal to 480i, I guess?

If anyone else knows what other settings do inside the DRCMFV1 and DRCV code groups I'd love to understand them more.


So the object here was to lessen the impact of blurriness from the DRC (Digital Reality Creation) processing.

*My set is the 34xs955 16:9 model.

*I used a real PS2 console with Component into Video 6

*DRC mode set to Progressive

*PRO setting


There are no adjustments for DRC on the user menu unless you change the ID7 code to 25 which I do not recommend you save it as if you do as it might ruin the TV. However, if you do set ID7 to 25 you can go into the user menu and adjust all three user DRC modes to 1 and 1 and they will save. No idea if this actually effects anything I just figured it wouldn't hurt. I did not save ID7 to 25 as I was afraid it could damage the TV.



With a service manual, and Doom for PS1 I did some testing and here is what I found.

First of all, I set a lot of stuff to 0 in the 2103-1 and 2170P-3 code groups. (My settings are nothing like they were before so disregard previous post settings)
_Keep in mind I have all sharpness settings at 0 on my set and all Velocity Modulation Turned Off/bypassed/disabled in the service menu as well, I think that's why having settings like PREO and SYSM to 0 seem to work fine, as in have no effect on the image._


For 2103-1 = SHAP, PREO are all now set at 0


The 2103-1 SHFO code is now set to 3 (It appears SHFO shifts focus. It's easily recognizable on text like the Avia II DVD menu in 480i when set to 3 everything looks centered to me. Not sure if PREO needs adjusting after this or not, it's hard to tell) (However, I did my testing of the DRC groups with it set to 0 as I think it makes it easier to see differences when adjusting)


For 2170P-3 = SYSM, ALL VM codes, SHOF, SHFO, PROV, F1LV, LTLV, LTMD, and CTLV are all set to 0


When playing Doom for PS1 here is what I notice...

Inside DRCMFV1 I have noticed that when MFVR is set to 1, assuming other codes are set per the service manual, text is easier to read. However, there is a blur of all the textures and what appears to be severe lag when playing the game, it's an almost watery look to everything during movement. When I set MFVR to 0, text is harder to read as it is blocky compared to 1. Textures appear sharp, almost too sharp and that is where i think I am on to a discovery.


In DRCMFV1 I have codes FMTH, FSEL, LMIT, LMLV, LMSL, VDLY, VDPR, WPLL, CRCT, VRA all set to 0

In DRCV I have codes ORES, VRB, and ONCT set to 128. NRA is set to 0




Inside the DRCMFV1 code group:

*With MFVR set to 1 and VRB set to anything the game itself looks and feels watery and laggy during movement.

(Watery is the only way I can describe the effect.)


*With MFVR set to 0 and VRB set to 0 textures look sharp but blocky, and text is harder to read.

(The game as a whole appears too sharp as if sharpness is turned up on the set.)


*With MFVR set to 0 and VRB set to 128, factory, textures look good but still slightly blocky.


*With MFVR set to 0 and VRB set to 255 not only do textures look smooth instead of blurry, but the blocky-ness seems to be alleviated to a good extent.

The game feels less laggy as if the frame-rate has increased even though I know it hasn't, and I don't get that watery look while playing.


Another way to show the effects is if you look at the little man face and the text at the bottom of the screen in Doom 1.

MFVR=0 + VRB=0 The guys face looks blocky and text is blown out.

MFVR=0 + VRB=128 The guys face looks slightly blocky compared to VRB @ 0, text looks fine, textures do gain some detail but the entire game still looks slightly blurry.

MFVR=0 + VRB=255 The guys face is clearer, I can see the white inside the eyes, text is clear as well, textures do appear slightly soft but still full of detail, as in they do not look blurry.


This leads me to believe that VRB interacts with MFVR as some kind of blur filter combined with sharpness or possibly they interact like the Wet/Dry of an effect processor.

VRB @ 255 and MFVR @ 0 seems to do the least amount of processing to the signal. I notice less lag, clear text and textures, with no watery look during movement. There is a slight softness to the textures, but I believe this is actually what the textures should look like to begin with since fine detail is still present.


And this last part could be my imagination but, for some reason setting all the DRCV codes to 0 appears to help too. I can't really explain it, but it seems to clean up more of that watery movement feeling I get from low res games. However, this could all be my imagination or simply more interaction with the DRCMFV1 code group which could complicate everything even more.

Then again, setting the first DRCV code to 128 or 255 and the rest to 0 may also be cleaning up the image a bit too.

I really don't know to be honest. It's somewhat subjective to test some of the settings in regards to motion and such low res imagery.

obligatory IHaveNoIdeaWhatI'mDoing.jpg

_I have these adjustments for all inputs._
*As of now I have left the DRCV codes set as follows:

ORES, VRA, ONCT = 0 and VRB = 128


The DRCMFV1 codes are:

FMTH, FSEL, LMIT, LMLV, LMSL, VDLY, VDPR, WPLL, CRCT, VRA = 0 and VRB = 255*


Perhaps it is just my imagination but this seems to be the optimal DRC settings for my set.


I hope this helps someone, and if anyone has more info on what each the DRC settings do I'd love to hear about them.

I even notice the difference in PS2 games that run in 480i. Games like Ridge Racer V are actually playable now although I'm sure true 240p on an SD set would look better.

And yes Doom 1 still looks like a pixelated mess, it's just now a more tolerable pixelated mess.

I suspect it would look worlds better on an SD set or possibly converted to 480p with a better converter like an Extron Emotia or VSC unit to bypass the TV's DRC engine.


----------



## Kelegacy

EDIT: I guess I was in the factory mode and not service mode, which I was able to find. Factory mode has White Balance settings however, and that is what I wanted to tweak. Service menu seemed pretty empty.


I was able to find the _Factory_ Menu code for my KDL46453A, but I can't seem to save anything. I see that other models let you hit 0 and then muting, but it doesn't seem to work for my set. I can't seem to figure out how to save any changes. There is a Data Backup option that is set to OFF, do I need to activate that?


Any help would be appreciated! I've tried other combos I've seen in this thread, such as Muting then Enter (I don't have an Enter button, but I guess it's the "center" button), or 0 then Muting, etc. but nothing has worked yet.


----------



## NextGen

Maybe I'm tripping.

But i just made a custom resolution of [email protected] 60hz progressive scan in nvidia control panel and the tv accepted it.

Did this on a 955 while trying to find custom resolutions that were 16/9 .


sorry for the bump but seemed mind blowing at the time.


I just tested it by using a 1280x720 image and displayed it as Actual Size in the windows photo viewer and got space around the whole image.


Other modes that allowed 16/9 60hz Progressive Scan went all the way to 1840x1035. Any higher and the screen blanked out.

I have no idea how to tell if the display is actually running at these resolutions in true progressive scan other than by nvidia control panel.

can others confirm?

http://pacoup.com/2011/06/12/list-of-true-169-resolutions/ 



After spending time with it, and going back and forth to interlaced mode, it appears that the xbr960/955 models will do 1840x1035 progressive scan. I had no idea a CRT TV could do this. I wonder what resolution the xbr800s will do in progressive scan? would be nice for down sampling video games


----------



## jtown017

I have a KV-34xbr800 tv that had overscan issue when switched to directv. it was only bad on menus and news tickers as the edges would be cut off.

The tv recently had a IC repair for 6 blinking lights. It worked. However, at the top of the screen there is a little tilt. It is not noticeable with regular picture. But when there is a logo, news ticker, or scoreboard at the top of the screen you can notice the tilt. its slight but it is a concave/convex issue.

Is this something that has to be fixed in the service menus? I am hoping not. Or was some component bumped when the IC repair was made?

i will get a picture tonight


----------



## homerging

It isn't the answer you want to hear but there is no way of dealing with geometry and overscan without going into the service menu. 

It is possible things have moved slightly because of the TV being moved but it sounds like the TV was shipped with poor geometry.

If you post pictures of the whole screen that show the problems I may be able to figure out which settings may help. There isn't a very clear and unified novice-friendly guide in this thread about dealing with geometry.

Usually pay TV receivers will not do HD over component with most or all channels as content providers strictly prohibit it. Devices may _say _they're outputting 1080i but still output SD or 480p/576p over analogue connections. It's important to be able to send a 1080i signal to the TV for setting geometry as there are many more options with SD.


----------



## Floydage

Good point on the output type but this TV has a DVI input. Of course what is the DirecTV output?

Shouldn't the TV repair person have fine tuned the TV if anything shifted? (not a full-on calibration but...). How much did this cost?


----------



## jtown017

homerging said:


> It isn't the answer you want to hear but there is no way of dealing with geometry and overscan without going into the service menu.
> 
> It is possible things have moved slightly because of the TV being moved but it sounds like the TV was shipped with poor geometry.
> 
> If you post pictures of the whole screen that show the problems I may be able to figure out which settings may help. There isn't a very clear and unified novice-friendly guide in this thread about dealing with geometry.
> 
> Usually pay TV receivers will not do HD over component with most or all channels as content providers strictly prohibit it. Devices may _say _they're outputting 1080i but still output SD or 480p/576p over analogue connections. It's important to be able to send a 1080i signal to the TV for setting geometry as there are many more options with SD.


I have attached a photo. I took this the other night real quick. Don't mind the artifacts caused by the camera.

I will try to get better pictures tonight.

The more I watch tv, the less i see problems with the tilt. It definitely has overscan. I only notice it on tickers (see bottom of pic) and im assuming its because i wouldnt notice picture being lost unless it was text. hope that makes sense.

you can kinda see the curve illusion. its almost like due to glass but maybe its due to the overscan.

i dont think i understand your HD over component deal. Right now, I have a DirecTV genie box hooked to the TV w component cables. i also have a xbox 360 hooked to the tv thru components. the directv output is set to 1080i. i can go to an HD channel and would assume i am getting HD 1080i. i go to a non hd channel (SD) and it looks like crap. so i definitely notice a difference and know i am getting HD. 

i guess thats where i am confused. so am i getting 480p max?!
on xbox 360 was i only getting that as well? the xbox was set to 1080i. and when it was set lower it looked like crap.



Floydage said:


> Good point on the output type but this TV has a DVI input. Of course what is the DirecTV output?
> 
> Shouldn't the TV repair person have fine tuned the TV if anything shifted? (not a full-on calibration but...). How much did this cost?


the repair for the ICs was 225 for an in home service. the only problem was the tv was on a channel without any news tickers or logos that the overscan would be noticeable. its hard to notice the overscan unless there is something you know is getting cut off like text instead of picture. i just assumed thats the edge of the picture until i see a news ticker then i know there is overscan.

DirecTV output is set to 1080i but like i mentioned above, i dont think i understand fully


----------



## Floydage

Wow at that price I'd think they'd bring a generator or disk to verify/tune. I mean I'm not expecting a full-on calibration but...
I borrowed a neighbor's Sony movie Blu-ray disk and it has a test pattern section. Something to think of if you can play those; I don't know about DVD movies. There are special cal disks out there. Sometimes I stumble across a vacant DTV sub-channel that is displaying test patterns of sorts. On the fly I'll tune into a local station weather sub that has a nice stationary frame to use, it might be provided to the station by The Weather Channel or the like.

Yeah your source devices should have a way to fix their outputs, most likely in the menu although I have a sat./HD tuner that does this via a front panel button (some really old stuff was on the back). Now on my Panasonic HDTV, which is akin to this TV, I know it's receiving 1080i by virtue of the Aspect button on my remote won't do anything (i.e. only changes aspect below 1080i and this TV can't do 720p). Might check your manual to see if your Sony does the same.

You mentioned tilt in another post. You might see if it has a tilt adjustment in the user menu. On my Panny it's within a function called Geomagnetic Correction.


----------



## fkie

Anyone knows how to disable the AUTO 16:9 enhancement on a KV-27HS420?


----------



## fbov

jtown017 said:


> I have attached a photo. ...It definitely has overscan. I only notice it on tickers (see bottom of pic) and im assuming its because i wouldnt notice picture being lost unless it was text. hope that makes sense....


Two things. 

Since fixed pixel displays have become commonplace, producers are no longer respecting image boundary specs, running program right to the edge. A properly set up HD CRT will crop the edge of the image, and you don't want to completely fix that because ...

I did the adjustments in service mode when my 34XBR970 was new, and could get good image out to the 95%. That last 5% was badly distorted if I made it visible, thus the 95% setting. It still cropped many tickers, but at least you could read the text...

HAve fun,
Frank


----------



## NextGen

fbov said:


> Two things.
> 
> Since fixed pixel displays have become commonplace, producers are no longer respecting image boundary specs, running program right to the edge. A properly set up HD CRT will crop the edge of the image, and you don't want to completely fix that because ...
> 
> I did the adjustments in service mode when my 34XBR970 was new, and could get good image out to the 95%. That last 5% was badly distorted if I made it visible, thus the 95% setting. It still cropped many tickers, but at least you could read the text...
> 
> HAve fun,
> Frank


It could also be his DirecTV unit. We have dish here at my house, and I always got a picture that was shifted to the right and down with our old unit. The new unit does not have this problem and displays everything correctly. I have about 1-2% over-scan on my set.


----------



## IrishLuck

Helllo everyone. I own a KV-34HS420 and the HDMI port does not appear to be working. I have tried various cables and devices to no avail. I have entered the Service Menu and changed the HDMI settings but nothing seems to be working. Any suggestions?


----------



## blue_z

IrishLuck said:


> I have tried various cables and devices to no avail.
> Any suggestions?


Don't use 1080p. 
Maximum accepted resolution is 1080i.

Regards


----------



## Floydage

Good one blue_z. Also, I don't know about this model but many HD CRTs won't accept 720p either.


----------



## jhunterthompson

I have these light blue discolorations on my XBR960

They are in the upper right and lower left when the screen is list. I am unable to adjust it away with the lading setting. Does anyone have any other ideas.

http://imgur.com/2H8msYZ,oS2FLfv,uDUutq7#0


----------



## Pspboy17

My kv-30hs420 does not seem to respond to any of these adjustments or any convergence adjustments. Does this set not support them?


----------



## d0nkatron

KenTech said:


> *02 - NAVIGATING SERVICE MODE*
> 
> 
> First download the attached Zipped file that should explain all: a page describing how to enter Service Mode, and two pictures of how it looks on my 36XS955 (gray background):
> 
> 
> THEN: Download the official chart of codes from a previous message, otherwise the relationships among them is hopelessly confusing. Don't worry that it may not match your exact set model. (But it may be way off for earlier-model sets.) This chart seems to be fine for XS and HS-series, for example. Earlier XBRs are not represented.
> 
> 
> SUMMARY: First power-off the TV, or start cold. Then press on the remote these four buttons within one second of each other: Display - 5 - Volume Up - Power. You should see a screen similar to "ServModeFirstView.jpg."
> 
> 
> The code group-name (e.g. 2170P-4, MID5, etc.) is in the upper-left corner. Below that is the name of the actual code-name within that group. The code-name's number (in the group) is also shown to the right of the group-name. In the "TypDisplay" example attached, 2170P-3 is the group, and we're at item #7, SHF0.
> 
> 
> To the right of the 7 is the code's *value.* This one is set to 0 (zero).
> 
> 
> The other designations are for information only: "FULL" screen mode, "Video5" is the active input, and "480i" is the video-scan mode. I have never figured out what "WSL: " means; its value changes while you fiddle with Service Mode, so it's readout of some sort, maybe the TV's "mood" at the moment, who knows.
> 
> 
> The number-key pair 2-5 are up-down for stepping thru the groups to the first code in each group.
> 
> 
> The pair 1-4 are up-down for the codes (spanning groups if you go past the group's end).
> 
> 
> The pair 3-6 are up-down for setting the code's value. **Write down the initial value before changing anything.**
> 
> 
> You can check out what different code-values do by tinkering -- no harm done. If you decide to back out after screwing things up, you have two choices: (1) press - Enter on the remote, which will re-enter the previous settings from memory; or (2) recycle Power to leave Service Mode, or press Power - Display - 5 - Volume Up - Power to start over in Service Mode. This is safe tinkering, but it's really best to log what you are doing.
> 
> 
> If you make a change you want to "stick," press the Mute button (the word "WRITE" appears), then Enter within a few seconds. (WRITE changes to red, then back to SERVICE.) The changes have been written to internal memory. If you hit Mute by accident, it will revert shortly, so don't worry.
> 
> 
> There are some aspects of this that can be confusing. If you change some settings, then change inputs or Picture Modes, you'll likely lose the changes -- but sometimes not, so don't assume anything. Some settings are always temporary, such as POP in the MID5 group. You can see the effect of different MID5 settings by changing POP, which then points to a different column in the MID5 table, maybe even change a few items. But if you step past the start or end of the MID5 codes, you lose the POP setting (it goes back to same as 2170P-3, MIDE) and the changes.
> 
> 
> Recommended: If you've been tinkering for a while and you've determined a change you want to make in, say, a *few* nearby and related codes, first reset Service Mode with - Enter (as above). Now note the old values, make the changes, and Write them each separately. (By resetting to old values first, you avoid accidental changes while you were previously tinkering.)
> 
> 
> CAUTION: AVOID keys 7 and 9, as they are part of a key-sequence that can reset all of the deflection or image-decoding settings back to a "factory-newborn" state. If you think youve hit any key by accident, STOP. In a few seconds it will revert back to SERVICE mode, as youll see at the right side of the screen. All dangerous key-sequences are combinations of *three* keys, by the way.
> 
> 
> I have made *very substantial* improvements to the display of my XS955-series set, as have many others with theirs, and I take some delight in experimenting with these codes, trying to deduce what they do. I am posting what I discover as I can, and I hope other folks will, too, as several generous folks already have (thanks!).
> 
> 
> [Revised 9-8-05.]
> 
> 
> 
> servmodehelp.zip 104.2255859375k . file


Hi KenTech,

I would be so much in your debt if you could help me with saving my POP settings in MID5. I HAVE read your posts on a couple forums already but my set seems to be fussy or I'm missing something.
I understand about the columns in the manual, which I have. I have tried every method of writing the column data into each thing one by one and not leaving the section. Tried turning off and unplugging afterward. 

The difference between the setting burned into it now and any of 3 or 4 different alternatives I've found using the MID5 - 0 setting is astronomical to my eyes. PLLAZE HALP! 

p.s.
I have really appreciated your posts about the service modes of these beauties for a few years now.


----------



## The_Height_of_Folly

I realize this is an old thread but I'm just curious to see if anyone with experience in messing with the service menu is still around. I recently bought a Sony KD-30XS955 and it's great but it did have quite a bit of overscan, which I have fixed. It's still a tad dark and the reds bleed a little. Another issue that I can't seem to fix is a faint outline around certain objects' edges, as if the image were slightly out of focus. 

Thanks for the help!


----------



## HunterZ0

My Sony Wega appears to be too late-model to support NES Zapper guns. It does not appear to have a Game Mode. Is there something I might be able to toggle in the service menu to turn off various features in order to reduce the picture latency?


----------



## SovietSlayer

HunterZ0 said:


> My Sony Wega appears to be too late-model to support NES Zapper guns. It does not appear to have a Game Mode. Is there something I might be able to toggle in the service menu to turn off various features in order to reduce the picture latency?


Pro Mode disables all the software enhancements so it might improve response time. With that said, the late model WEGAs are best used for DVI or HDMI hook-up to a PC with emulators.


----------



## SovietSlayer

Nitewatchman said:


> 
> Which reminds me --- On another note -- an update on the "HDPT" PM I sent you and Ken the other day. Among other things, if you missed it, In the PM, it explains how I followed the info on this for older sets on other threads, and read all the approrpiate info in the "vertical bar" thread/etc.
> 
> Anyway -- I played around with HDPT=0 a little more in one pic mode last night. HDPT has Pic mode specific setting on my set - for instance, you can have it at "0" for vivid and "1" for Standard. With 1080i sources(which is all HDPT effects I believe), The screen going "scrambled" on my set(like you've lost V Sync or H Sync, and somewhat similar, in a sense to what you may get in some occasions if the 2171CXA "FIXS" paramenter isn't correctly set)occurs ONLY if you bring up the user "display" function, and only does that when your in SM - although, even outside SM, the user menus, channel banners/etc, are still "garbled" and not correctly displayed. Otherwise, it seemed to "work" to "by-pass MID".
> 
> I didn't find any "good" use for HDPT=0 it however. Except involving "differences" involved with values for the "PT"(passthrough) columns for some controls which differ -- (such as YOSW value, the 1080i PT specific CROP/CBOP(interestingly enough, CROP/CBOP AND YOF~CROF all are offsets that effect the "1080i PT" signal, as well as PT column CBGN~YGN/etc) from the "component" or 'ATSC" specific columns, I couldn't find any differences using HDPT=0 concerning the picture quality of 1080i sources as compared to using HDPT=1 and using all Zeroes in the MID5 Column.
> 
> Or, If there were any differences in "image quality"/etc, I couldn't "see" them. I also noticed, with "HDPT" at "0" there was often a "quick moving", rather wide Vertical bar moving across the screen at times(only on 1080i sources of course). Also note that MID1/"DPSW" "blank screen" on my KD34XBR960 if set to "1", and on this set "0" is the "normal" setting for it. If I recall my reading about older sets correctly, it's the other way around.
> 
> **disclaimer** At this point, I do not endorse, or recommend that anyone, at least with one of these newer Sony sets "check out" MID-by pass and the "HDPT" setting! As, (just based on my short experiments), #1). I don't think we know "enough" about what it does on these newer sets, it might not be 100% "safe", #2) I don't see that its "MID by pass" does anything "useful", and you can use all Zeros in a MID5 column+accomplish the same thing, at least that seems to be the case given my short experience with it, and from what I can tell. I could be wrong, of course. #3). Also, when you're in SM at least, you might find the screen becoming "all garbled" if you set it to "0" making the Service Menu info "unreadable", therefore you'll be in a real fix if you don't know a way "out" of it. #4). At least on my set, when using HDPT=0, the User menus and channel displays/banners/etc. do not display properly.



Thanks. I reset my service mode to default settings and by default 1080i Pro Mode has HDPT=0. I was struggling for a few hours trying to determine was was occurring. Your post helped me fix the issue.


----------



## guitartricky

*Still running a CRT gem, KV-34HS420*

I'm resurrecting this old thread because I've owned a Sony KV-34HS420 since it was new back in 2005. I love this TV and can't bring myself to replace it until it breaks. I estimate we've put 20,000 plus hours on it and it still works like new. I've used this thread extensively off and on since I found it in 2018, in order to correct/improve the geometry and convergence issues. I've probably spent at least 50 hrs. off and on since then learning and tweaking service menu parameters. The forum doesn't let you post pictures until you have at least 5 posts. I'll be back shortly


----------

