# Sticky  Grounding antenna masts and coax cable



## 195

I am attempting to cut the cord and got myself an Antennas Direct Clearstream 2 antenna. I also got a 10ft galvanized fence pole from Lowes and cut it down to 8ft to use as a mast. I mounted the antenna at the apex of my roof on the end side of the highest decorative eave post (I believe it's called an outlooker). Similar to the brown posts in this picture: http://www.fauxwoodbeams.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/outlooker4.jpg. So my antenna is about 1ft away from the actual roof of the house. 

Reception is great in my tests and now I am figuring out how I should ground everything. The coax cable runs to the box where I have a grounding block in there already in use for cable internet. This leads me to a couple of questions that I hope somebody can answer:

1. I'm looking to get a dual grounding block to share between the cable internet (which uses the single grounding block already there that came with the house) and the antenna. Any concerns with doing this? 

2. I noticed that dual grounding blocks have two ground connections. Would I need to connect both grounds on the block?

3. Is it even necessary to ground my puny antenna and mast? I have a single story house and the top of my antenna is at the roofline height of my neighbors two-story house 20ft away. We get maybe one mild thunderstorm a year (bay area California). In my (naiive) mind I picture lighting striking the antenna and the decorative outlooker just falling off with the antenna and not causing major damage to the house.

4. If I must ground the antenna mast, can I run a ground wire along with the coax line into the same ground block that the coax/cable internet uses? That's the closest pre-existing ground source and is about a 50ft run.

Thanks in advance.


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## AntAltMike

195 said:


> 1. I'm looking to get a dual grounding block to share between the cable internet (which uses the single grounding block already there that came with the house) and the antenna. Any concerns with doing this?


No concerns



> 2. I noticed that dual grounding blocks have two ground connections. Would I need to connect both grounds on the block?


You wouldn't necessarily need to. Back when I used to be current on the details of the code, it said that the coax grounding conductor had to be approximately equal in current carrying capability to the coax cable outer conductors it was grounding, but in no case could it be less than 14 gauge. Cable companies commonly used 12 gauge solid to ground one RG-6 coax. But when a block is used to ground two coax cables, they have collectively twice the current carrying capability as one, so you would theoretically need twice the current carrying capability of your ground connection wire or wires to satisfy that, and that capacity is most easily met by running two ground wires. Alternatively, you could use one six gauge ground wire, but that is more difficult to obtain. Similarly, the big blocks that simultaneously ground four coaxes commonly have four ground wire attachment holes.



> 3. Is it even necessary to ground my puny antenna and mast? I have a single story house and the top of my antenna is at the roofline height of my neighbors two-story house 20ft away. We get maybe one mild thunderstorm a year (bay area California).


Not really. Grounds specified by the NEC are for safety purposes. In an antenna system, they theoretically tend to drain off static charge from an antenna that supposedly would otherwise make it more inviting to lightning, and the coax outer conductor ground is supposed to better assure that voltage that is on that outer shield it shunted to ground, rather than entering the house, where it could be a shock or fire hazard. I believe that coax ground is more useful in grounding the kind of voltage that might be incurred if a loose power line made contact with your antenna system.

There are no grounding police to find and penalize a nonconforming grounded antenna system. So-called installation professionals usually ground in accordance with code so that they will not be subsequently penalized by their employer for not having done so.



> 4. If I must ground the antenna mast, can I run a ground wire along with the coax line into the same ground block that the coax/cable internet uses? That's the closest pre-existing ground source and is about a 50ft run.


We all do that. Under some real rigid interpretations of the code, that might flunk the principles that the mast ground be as short and direct as possible, or that it not go laterally more than some specified distance without first being connected to its own 8' earth ground rod,, but frankly, that is one aspect of grounding code compliance that even the most finicky of installers choose to ignore. You can get coax that has 17 gauge copper clad steel ground wire attached to it and have that mast ground wire go into one hole of your "Siamese" ground block, and use the other ground wire hole for your earth ground and your antenna installation will be grounded as well as about 99% of all antenna installations


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## DrDon

Going to stick this since it comes up a lot. Thread is open and all additional advice is welcome so we have a rough FAQ.


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## 195

Thank you Mike for the detailed explanation and the peace of mind. I went ahead and ordered a dual ground block (Holland GRB-2THR-UL) and a coax cable with a 17awg copper ground attached to it (http://prowirecommunications.com/store/product3.html). I had trouble finding a name-brand cable that offered less than 1000ft rolls of this stuff. Since it's an outdoor run, I can easily replace it if it fails.

In summary, I'll have three grounds routing through the ground block:
1. The coax cable from the street that provides cable internet
2. The coax cable from the antenna that provides OTA channels
3. The ground wire attached to the antenna coax which fastens to the antenna mast

One other thing I forgot to mention is that I have a small signal amplifier/splitter for the antenna in the same area as the ground block (http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Ampli...ibution+Cable+TV+HDTV+Splitter+Signal+Booster). If I connect this after the ground block, do I still need to ground it? In terms of grounding (or not grounding), where would be the optimal place for the amplifier?

Thanks again!


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## AntAltMike

195 said:


> ...I have a small signal amplifier/splitter for the antenna in the same area as the ground block (http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Ampli...ibution+Cable+TV+HDTV+Splitter+Signal+Booster). If I connect this after the ground block, do I still need to ground it? In terms of grounding (or not grounding), where would be the optimal place for the amplifier?


If that amplifier is located indoors, then it definitely doesn't need to be grounded. If it is outdoors, then it does raise the fuzzy issue of what it means to ground each coax as near as possible to the point where it(they) enter(s) the building.

It seems that the satellite TV installation companies have concluded to their own satisfaction that when their similar multiport amplification and switching devices are located outside the house but are grounded, that grounded case serves the same purpose as a grounding block.


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## acesat

AntAltMike said:


> It seems that the satellite TV installation companies have concluded to their own satisfaction that when their similar amplification and switching devices are located outside the house but are grounded, that grounded case serves the same purpose as a grounding block.


many are UL listed for that very purpose, but it sounds like he has the option to put it after the ground block in which case it does not need to be grounded. I prefer using proper ground blocks.. just for the permanence of them. then any changes are done instead with patch cables at the cost of -1dB.

I had a chance to discuss this with an electrical engineer but it got kinda iffy because they might not be that familiar with the anatomy of the antenna. In my case I was switching him from Directv to Dish and I was not the original Directv installer. There was no ground wire attached to the dish and the splitter at the home run was grounded. The debate was whether or not that was sufficient. In reality it doesn't matter much since the odds of lightning in his case were negligible, so if I was going to ground at all, I would ground it properly. An important physical difference between a D* dish and a E* dish is that the LNB is clamped directly to the dish itself, while E* dishes attach the LNB using a plastic bracket thus isolating the coax ground from the actual dish. I ran new cable to the dish with a messenger ground wire that was grounded at the service entrance outside rather than the main grounding electrode at the breaker panel.

I think professional installers are more often proponents of grounding than skeptics, but you'd probably know if you were at high risk of lightning based on the storms you've observed in the past. If you end up grounding it, then just keep the ground wire shorter than the coax run and just like AntAltMike suggested, use a #17 copper clad messenger wire. It's what the pros are using.


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## AntAltMike

acesat said:


> many are UL listed for that very purpose, but it sounds like he has the option to put it after the ground block in which case it does not need to be grounded. I prefer using proper ground blocks.. just for the permanence of them. then any changes are done instead with patch cables at the cost of -1dB.


But the thing is, "the code" requires the coax downleads to be grounded as near as possible to the point at which they enter the house, so whether the coax gets to a grounded distribution splitter or switch, there is still some distance from those output ports to the point at which each enters the house. This is one of many fuzzy issues regarding code grounding requirement definitions, namely, are the coaxes that go from an external, multiport amplifier or splitter or SWM unit actually antenna leads? Last time I checked, the code did not explicitly say, but I haven't really scrutinized the two most recent revisions.



> I had a chance to discuss this with an electrical engineer but it got kinda iffy because they might not be that familiar with the anatomy of the antenna. In my case I was switching him from Directv to Dish and I was not the original Directv installer. There was no ground wire attached to the dish and the splitter at the home run was grounded. The debate was whether or not that was sufficient. In reality it doesn't matter much since the odds of lightning in his case were negligible, so if I was going to ground at all, I would ground it properly. An important physical difference between a D* dish and a E* dish is that the LNB is clamped directly to the dish itself, while E* dishes attach the LNB using a plastic bracket thus isolating the coax ground from the actual dish.


One point I keep making here, if for no other reason than that a lot of grounding commentary gradually gets buried, is that there are several different reasons that one grounds antenna systems. One is that doing so is supposed to enhance fire and shock safety, another is to attempt to protect consumer electronic equipment from surge damage, and a third, but the most important to so-called installation professionals, is so that they will not be penalized by their employer for not having installed in compliance with code when they were paid to do so. And many have expressed the concern here that their insurance requires it.

While I understand your conclusion that an LNB whose flange physically contacts a dish theoretically develops a conductive path from the mast to the coax outer shield, that does not satisfy the explicit mandate of the code and therefore a DirecTV or DISH Network system installer is not supposed to satisfy the grounding requirement that way. Furthermore, since the LNB support tube has a painted surface, it would not meet any accepted practice standards for attaching a ground wire or completing a ground path because its conductivity would be suspect.

Insofar as insurance liability is concerned, in the decade and a half in which I have participated in thousands of discussions on grounding, I have never once received a credible, verifiable report of an insurance company either refusing to pay a claim or using its subrogation right to sue an installer for recoup of any insurance payment it has made to an insured customer who had incurred damage to their improperly grounded antenna system.


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## acesat

AntAltMike said:


> But the thing is, "the code" requires the coax downleads to be grounded as near as possible to the point at which they enter the house, so whether the coax gets to a grounded distribution splitter or switch, there is still some distance from those output ports to the point at which each enters the house. This is one of many fuuzzy issues regarding code grounding requirement definitions, namely, are the coaxes that go from an external, multiport amplifier or splitter or SWM unit actually antenna leads? Last time I checked, the code did not explicitly say, but I haven't really scrutinized the two most recent revisions.
> 
> 
> 
> One point I keep making here, if for no other reason than that a lot of grounding commentary gradually gets buried, is that there are several different reasons that one grounds antenna systems. One is that doing so is supposed to assure fire and shock safety, another is to attempt to protect consumer electronic equipment from surge damage, and a third, but the most important to so-called installation professionals, is so that they will not be penalized by their employer for not having installed in compliance with code when they were paid to do so. And many have expressed the concern here that their insurance requires it.
> 
> While I understand your conclusion that an LNB whose flange physically contacts a dish theoretically develops a conductive path from the mast to the coax outer shield, that does not satisfy the explicit mandate of the code and therefore a DirecTV or DISH Network system installer is not supposed to satisfy the grounding requirement that way. Furthermore, since the LNB support tube has a painted surface, it would not meet any accepted practice standards for attaching a ground wire or completing a ground path because its conductivity would be suspect.
> 
> Insofar as insurance liability is concerned, in the decade and a half in which I have participated in thousands of discussions on grounding, I have never once received a credible, verifiable report of an insurance company either refusing to pay a claim or using its subrogation right to sue an installer for recoup of any insurance payment it has made to an insured customer who had incurred damage to their improperly grounded antenna system.


I read the satellite message boards too and most would say the same thing about employer requirements being the leading reason for grounding a dish, i.e. the threat of chargebacks. I get the impression (and correct me if I'm wrong) that regarding antennas you see grounding as unnecessarily prioritized by DIYers... Not that it's without value, just disproportionately emphasized. Along the same lines as things like buying special expensive tools to cut coax without squashing the dielectric, when all along they were going to strip off the squashed part regardless.

Anyway, your insight is extremely valuable and readers would do well to follow your advice.


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## richeydog

Looking for advice on how/where to ground a rooftop antenna. 

For a long time I've been wanting to hookup an old rooftop antenna to my dish network system. I have a 722K with an OTA Module. This gives me two extra tuners for ota only, which helps reduce timer conflicts. Since I didn't want to drill any extra holes in the walls to run the antenna cabling, I figured out(with some help) how to run it directly through the dish wiring with the use of splitters/diplexers. Works great.

I do want to ground the antenna but don't know how. The Dish system is already grounded(see photo below), I'm wondering if I can run a wire to the same grounding block? Or do I need to ground it separately? Any suggestions would be great. 

The cabling at the bottom of the photo is from the antenna, which goes into the splitter then diplexer.


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## richeydog

richeydog said:


> Looking for advice on how/where to ground a rooftop antenna.
> 
> For a long time I've been wanting to hookup an old rooftop antenna to my dish network system. I have a 722K with an OTA Module. This gives me two extra tuners for ota only, which helps reduce timer conflicts. Since I didn't want to drill any extra holes in the walls to run the antenna cabling, I figured out(with some help) how to run it directly through the dish wiring with the use of splitters/diplexers. Works great.
> 
> I do want to ground the antenna but don't know how. The Dish system is already grounded(see photo below), I'm wondering if I can run a wire to the same grounding block? Or do I need to ground it separately? Any suggestions would be great.
> 
> The cabling at the bottom of the photo is from the antenna, which goes into the splitter then diplexer.


Bump


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## acesat

Just run 10 gauge solid copper from the antenna mast to the ground block and call it done. While you're up there you should replace those twist-on fittings with compression fittings to prevent water migration and inevitable corrosion. A cheaper alternative would be to find some 1/2" heat shrink tubing and hit it with a lighter but there are other problems with twist-on fittings besides moisture. I snip them off immediately whenever I see them. Also, it takes all of 10 seconds and a 3 cent zip tie to make that service loop into a neat circle. I hope you did that and not the technician. Yuck


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## Brien

*Grounding outdoor antenna... where?*

Hello everyone,


I recently bought a RCA ANT751R to get OTA television at our new place - and plan on mounting it on or near the roof (don't know if peak of roof of eaves in back of house is preferred location, I would imagine peak since it's directly above the breaker/meter and is about 5' higher but if anyone has differing opinions let me know), I've read the NEC code and bought all of the relevant supplies for the install, one big issue remains: I can't seem to find the main ground.


Our house doesn't appear to have a ground rod, I've tried digging for it and nothing is down there that I can see. Our house is built on a slab, so perhaps it's embedded in the concrete, or they used the water main - considering it's on the other side of the house I doubt that.


I've attached a photo of the service box/panel - they are combined into one unit so I imagine the ground is hiding in there somewhere. The stuff on either side is sprinkler/HVAC so ignore those.


I know NEC permits grounding to the service enclosure, which looks like it may be the best bet in this scenario short of having an electrician or the power company come out - which I would rather avoid.


Any feedback on this would be great.


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## JackRyan900

Start digging around the conduit for the Telephone NID with a hand shovel. You will find out if that ground wire connects to a Ufer ground, or goes to a ground rod. Do not get all gung ho and start slamming the shovel in the ground. Just take your time and loosen up the soil, then use your hand to move it aside.

Usually the ground wires are around 4"-6" under the soil.


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## Brien

The telephone and CATV conduits (black cables, really) are in PVC pipes that go down several inches. Keep digging?


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## retiredengineer

*Cable grounded directly to service panel*

When my cable was installed, the installer just attached the green ground wire with a tag that says 'do not remove' directly to the service panel. They must know what they are doing, right.


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## acesat

Cheapest route would be simply use a corner clamp for a few bucks
https://www.google.com/search?q=gro...a=X&ei=m5VPVPHWHoqvyASupID4BQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg

If the electrical service conduit is metal and not pvc you could use a strap, that's pretty cheap too
http://www.alliedboltinc.com/productimages/Premium Ground Strap-Galvanized 24GAB.jpg

Usually inside the cable co. enclosure (2nd from bottom) there should be a ground block with a wire going to a ground source. It'll be the only wire coming out of that box that's not coax. I wouldn't recommend this but if you could flip the breaker for that receptacle and get a ground wire in there you could pigtail off of that ground. If all else fails, hire an electrician to add a grounding busbar below the meter and ground whatever you want to it.


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## DrDon

Please use existing threads before starting a new one. Threads merged.


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## Brien

acesat said:


> Cheapest route would be simply use a corner clamp for a few bucks
> https://www.google.com/search?q=gro...a=X&ei=m5VPVPHWHoqvyASupID4BQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg
> 
> If the electrical service conduit is metal and not pvc you could use a strap, that's pretty cheap too
> http://www.alliedboltinc.com/productimages/Premium Ground Strap-Galvanized 24GAB.jpg
> 
> Usually inside the cable co. enclosure (2nd from bottom) there should be a ground block with a wire going to a ground source. It'll be the only wire coming out of that box that's not coax. I wouldn't recommend this but if you could flip the breaker for that receptacle and get a ground wire in there you could pigtail off of that ground. If all else fails, hire an electrician to add a grounding busbar below the meter and ground whatever you want to it.


Ground wire in the CATV box (green) goes inside the wall. Which leads me to think I have some weird ufer ground integrated into the slab foundation. Corner clamp it is.


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## matonanjin

Really stupid question I realize. But exposing my ignorance, newbiness here. All of this talk of grounding, is this for lightning protection? 

I am not totally satisfied with my in-attic antenna for OTA reception and am therefor considering going to a roof one. As we live in an are prone to a _*lot*_ of storms, especially in the April/May time of the year, I want to protect my system from lightning strikes. Is grounding the outdoor antenna going to be sufficient to do so? I would think that I would need some sort of in-line surge protector.


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## AntAltMike

matonanjin said:


> ... All of this talk of grounding, is this for lightning protection?


The talk is for whomever spaketh. Grounding the mast is intended to make it a less inviting target to lightning and to shunt as much of the lightning energy as possible to ground. Grounding the coax cable as near as possible to the point at which it enters the building sdimilarly shunts dangerous current to ground. The standards for each have been determined under the model National Electric Code, or NEC, to be recommended and often mandated procedures for minimizing the fire and shock hazards that external antennas create.



> I want to protect my system from lightning strikes. Is grounding the outdoor antenna going to be sufficient to do so? I would think that I would need some sort of in-line surge protector.


Protecting your system from damage from lightning strikes is an incidental benefit to grounding it for fire and shock prevention, but such grounding can never be wholly adequate for that purpose, because it just doesn't take much of a "zap" to damage semi-conductors in consumer electronic products, so you can still additionally benefit from adding surge protection devices into an otherwise grounded antenna signal path.


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## bugtussle

Ive got a question about using my Radio Shack UHF/VHF combiner as the ground block for my system and not install a separate ground block at the pole which would add more connectors and cuts in the lines. The combiner has a ground screw on it and i would run a copper wire from it to a ground rod below the mast. My mast is attached outside to an old 3" steel big dish post that runs about 2.5 feet into the ground. I would appreciate any thoughts on this.


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## rabbit73

The RS UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner (diplexer) can be used instead of a grounding block. That is why the screw is there.

But, connecting it to a separate ground rod below the mast would satisfy the code requirements only if that rod is connected to the house system ground with a 6 gauge wire. The code requires the two grounds to be bonded together to eliminate any potential difference between them.

Your alternative would be to run two 10 gauge copper wires to the house electrical system ground; one for the mast and one for the grounding block.

Copper wire is getting expensive; 10 gauge is a lot less expensive than 6 gauge.


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## bugtussle

Thanks for the quick answer rabbit73. I will do what you recommended.


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## 0x0is0

Another grounding noob here.

I'm going to cut the cord on Comcast and will be putting up a Wineguard antenna on the roof. I'm still confused about grounding. I know I need two #10 gauge ground wires - one for the mast of antenna and one for the coax grounding block.

I do not see a ground rod on my property, but I do see the painted copper wire coming out of the ground near the water meter. The wire runs up from the ground (the white plasticky tube is covering/protecting it), then it wraps around the meter pipe.

Is it okay for me to ground my two wires (from antenna mast and coax grounding block) to this wire and/or meter??? The wire is definitely solid copper, just painted over long ago when the house was built. I just never noticed it, until I was searching for a ground rod around my house. See pictures.

Thanks in advance.


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## olyteddy

0x0is0 said:


> Another grounding noob here.
> 
> I'm going to cut the cord on Comcast and will be putting up a Wineguard antenna on the roof. I'm still confused about grounding. I know I need two #10 gauge ground wires - one for the mast of antenna and one for the coax grounding block.
> 
> I do not see a ground rod on my property, but I do see the painted copper wire coming out of the ground near the water meter. The wire runs up from the ground (the white plasticky tube is covering/protecting it), then it wraps around the meter pipe.
> 
> Is it okay for me to ground my two wires (from antenna mast and coax grounding block) to this wire and/or meter??? The wire is definitely solid copper, just painted over long ago when the house was built. I just never noticed it, until I was searching for a ground rod around my house. See pictures.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


*I'd suggest you seek professional help.* That's a photo of a gas meter and the solid copper wire is an insulated wire that runs along side the buried plastic gas pipe. The wire is there to facilitate locating the pipe should the need arise.


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## 0x0is0

Yikes. I'm so embarrassed.  Thank you for your reply.

I just assumed that was the ground wire since all the phone and cable TV and water come into the house from that general area. Then I see this funny looking copper wire sticking out of the dirt, so I assume they are grounding something or maybe there was a rod there somewhere. OOPS. 

If I open up the phone box I can see their 10 gauge green wire (I don't have ATT home phone service anymore; don't care). If I open up the little TV cable box (where Comcast Cable comes in) I can also see their green ground wire too. I just don't know (can't see) where that green wire goes to at the other ends. It runs in the internal wall of the garage.

I really don't want to put the Wineguard antenna in the same spot as the DISH/satellite (kinda low; that's where you see the two coax running down along the outside wall). We gave up on them years ago; just never took it down. But that's where the technician hooked up everything when they were here. We want to put the TV antenna higher up on the roof in a different/better location, then have the feed go to grounding block, then enters the attic down to a wiring closet to the amp and 8-way splitter.

I recently re-wired the whole house with CAT6 and RG6, so all the rooms upstairs and downstairs can have a TV and are hard-wired for internet. (When the house was built, it only gave us TV hookup in two rooms, LOL!) Anyway, all my cables meet in the closet of a spare room, second level (my wiring closet) where the Motorola surfboard modem, Asus router, Cisco small business switch, TrendNet patch panel, Electroline amp and Leviton 8-way TV splitter sit. And all my wiring/cabling test passed, according to my test meter. 

One of my last steps is to put the TV antenna outside, but I just don't know where to ground the antenna mast and the grounding block before it enters the house/attic.  It can't be this hard, can it?

Sorry for being a noobie and the long post


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## acesat

It would be easier to make out details in the picture if it were bigger but I can't zoom in at all. The electric meter sticks out, refer to post #16 regarding corner clamps.

Perhaps antenna guys can correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't #17 CCS messenger wire conform to code for between the antenna mast and ground block? It's acceptable for dishes which I think are simply classified as antennas. If so, that would be a much nicer looking finished product. It can be hard to find that kind of cable in small quantities but here's what I found

$12 for 50 ft: http://amzn.com/B002HEY3BY

If that's not enough try phoning a satellite company or technician and see if they'll sell you some for ideally between 7-25 cents/ft. Everything is for sale, call around until you find someone who likes money but not enough to try ripping you off. Be generous in your estimates for length.


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## nukeman2000

*Antenna install on outbuilding, how to ground*

I posted this to the main forum, but it was suggested that I post my question to this thread instead.

Hello,

I just completed our new house build and want to install a HD antenna. My intentions are to mount the antenna on my 40x60 shop that's about 60ft from the house and connected with buried conduit. I'm thinking about this for several reasons; it doesn't require any holes in the roof of my house, aesthetics, and it is a clearer line of sight to the TV station antennas. I bought a Channel Master 4228 antenna, and a Channel Master CM-7777 amplifier. I ran RG-6 to the proposed antenna location to test and I got the reception I expected. Now I'm ready to mount the antenna permanently and have some questions regarding grounding it.

I've been doing a little research and what I've found says I need to ground both my antenna mast and the RG-6 as close to where it enters the building as possible. I've also read it's best to ground everything to the same grounding rod that the house is connected to. 

The shop does have electrical service that comes from the house via a 2-pole 100 amp breaker from my house electrical panel to another 2-pole 100 amp breaker in the shop's electrical panel. However, the shop doesn't have a separate ground rod.

What's the best strategy for this? Is my idea to mount the antenna on an outbuilding reasonable? Should I ground the signal wire before it enters the house or the shop? Should I put in a new grounding rod to ground the antenna mast? When it comes to protecting my family and my possessions it's worth taking the time to do things right, even if it means changing my plans if necessary. 

I've attached picture of my layout and the shop's electrical panel.


Thanks for the help


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## richart

Different jurisdictions have different electric codes. I called the building inspector where I live when I installed my antenna and mast. He said I should install an 8 ft ground rod at the base of the mast and connect the new ground rod to the main electrical ground rod with a solid #6 copper wire. He said I could install the coax cable grounding block either at the base of my mast and connect it the new ground rod or place it just prior to entry to the house and ground it to the main electrical ground. I would recommend checking with your local building inspector for what is correct in your area. I think the most important thing is that all ground rods have to be connected together so they are all at the same electric potential.


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## kc27

*Question About Ground Wire Routing*

I am in Milwaukee WI - zip 53172. All of the local stations are north of my home, the furthest is 15 miles away. I purchased a Channel Master SMARTenna 35/50 (model CM3000HD) that I would prefer to install in the attic. The house is a one and a half story home with aluminum siding, and some foil backed insulation in the attic (the attic is more like an upstairs crawl space). For the most part reception with the antenna in the attic is great - but I did get some pixelization on the local NBC affiliate. So now I am considering mounting the antenna outdoors. 

A diagram of the north facing of the house is at clemke[dot]com/misc/house_wiring_2.gif The antenna can be mounted to the siding with a wall mount, or I have a J mast that I can attach to the house. I was considering mounting the J mast at the peak of the roof. If I do that, how do I route the ground wire from the mast? Everything I have read says that it should be a direct route the grounding rod. A direct route from the peak of the roof will put the grounding cable right in the center of the upper window. Could I take both the ground wire and the coax over to the right, then down parallel with the electric service conduit and the cable and dsl cables?

If it has to be a straight line down to the grounding rod, I suppose I could attach the antenna using the wall mount to the left of the upper window, and then bring the ground wire (and coax) down in a straight line. If I have to mount it to the wall, however, I'd rather mount it to the right of the window, together with the other wires to keep things looking neater. This however would not solve the direct path straight down for the ground wire, there would still a small bit of routing. Also, mounting to the left or right of the upper window does not put the antenna at the highest point of the house. The lower height of mounting on the wall to the side of the window vs mounting on the J mast at the peak, may not matter, however, because I have tested with the antenna laying in front of the upstairs window, and the reception is great.

Any advice would be appreciated. I'd prefer to just keep the antenna in the attic, so if you've got ideas on how to make that work with an aluminum sided home, I'd appreciate the help. If attic mounting is not going to be a viable solution, then any advice you can share on the exterior mounting and ground wire routing would also be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your time.


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## highfigh

kc27 said:


> I am in Milwaukee WI - zip 53172. All of the local stations are north of my home, the furthest is 15 miles away. I purchased a Channel Master SMARTenna 35/50 (model CM3000HD) that I would prefer to install in the attic. The house is a one and a half story home with aluminum siding, and some foil backed insulation in the attic (the attic is more like an upstairs crawl space). For the most part reception with the antenna in the attic is great - but I did get some pixelization on the local NBC affiliate. So now I am considering mounting the antenna outdoors.
> 
> A diagram of the north facing of the house is at clemke[dot]com/misc/house_wiring_2.gif The antenna can be mounted to the siding with a wall mount, or I have a J mast that I can attach to the house. I was considering mounting the J mast at the peak of the roof. If I do that, how do I route the ground wire from the mast? Everything I have read says that it should be a direct route the grounding rod. A direct route from the peak of the roof will put the grounding cable right in the center of the upper window. Could I take both the ground wire and the coax over to the right, then down parallel with the electric service conduit and the cable and dsl cables?
> 
> If it has to be a straight line down to the grounding rod, I suppose I could attach the antenna using the wall mount to the left of the upper window, and then bring the ground wire (and coax) down in a straight line. If I have to mount it to the wall, however, I'd rather mount it to the right of the window, together with the other wires to keep things looking neater. This however would not solve the direct path straight down for the ground wire, there would still a small bit of routing. Also, mounting to the left or right of the upper window does not put the antenna at the highest point of the house. The lower height of mounting on the wall to the side of the window vs mounting on the J mast at the peak, may not matter, however, because I have tested with the antenna laying in front of the upstairs window, and the reception is great.
> 
> Any advice would be appreciated. I'd prefer to just keep the antenna in the attic, so if you've got ideas on how to make that work with an aluminum sided home, I'd appreciate the help. If attic mounting is not going to be a viable solution, then any advice you can share on the exterior mounting and ground wire routing would also be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your time.


South Milwaukee? Call Lancer TV.

The foil faced insulation and aluminum siding isn't helping your signal. 

The main reason I would be hesitant to mount the antenna outside is because of lightning and yes, I know millions of antennas have been mounted this way, just not on my house.

If you do mount one outside, just make sure the ground wire goes straight into the ground.


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## DrDon

Threads merged. Please use existing threads when possible.


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## kc27

How do people route ground wires? Always in a straight line, or is there an acceptable amount of deviation from a straight line?


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## Greyhair71

Grounding problem need some ideas..
Newbie to the forum .. I live on the Cumberland Plateau of Tennessee country living... Problem here on the Plateau it's " ROCK" I spent about 5 hours this afternoon and 60 attempts later still no luck I can only get the ground rod down 35 inches and it hits solid rock.. And being a used home built in 2005 they extended a concert slab ( patio ) over the ground from what I can figure out.. looks like 4-5 inch metal pipe.. runs about 250 + feet Just a guess the pipe is PVC that's buried over to the power pole then metal and up the pole for termination the ground wire for home is some what hidden behind the metal pipe.. looks like #4 -- #6 and the way they did this leaves only 10--15 inches exposed and tucked behind the bend of the metal pipe which had 2 clamps upper lower the ground wire is buried behind the clamps no clear direct route for a ground wire from roof area.
My question is with only 25- 30 inches of ground rod.. that's after digging a pit and burring the termination on the rod in the ground and covering it so I can mower over it then digging another trench for ground wire running up to TV antenna mast Trench from rod to foundation will be 15--18 feet.. approximately. 
Any feed back would be greatly appreciated..


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## kc27

kc27 said:


> How do people route ground wires? Always in a straight line, or is there an acceptable amount of deviation from a straight line?



Any ideas on this?


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## ProjectSHO89

The code book says something like "as straight a line as practical" or something like that. You really need to just look it up. Section 810.21 IIRC. You're on your own to interpret how much might be too much.


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## Rons2

*OTA Antenna grounding questions*

I'm placing an antenna on the opposite side of the house were the grounding rod is located. Reason being its the only place were I have a clear view of the broadcast signals. Bonding the two rods the conventional way would be a difficult 200 foot run.

What I'm thinking of doing, but not sure if its up to code (or safe) is to drive in a second ground rod directly below the antenna then bond the two rods using the interior copper water pipes. My water comes from a 600' deep well using a submersible pump drilled in the mid 1970s so I'm guessing no plastic outside pipes. The well is about 24 feet from the house

The inside water pipe is about 18" from the outside wall and about 24" from my oil burner. Oil tank is better than 25 feet away.

Is this a good idea or am I nuts?


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## AntAltMike

The inside water pipe makes an excellent ground as long as there are no plastic repair sections between where you connect to it and where it enters the building, but it no longer satisfies the electrical code.

Starting in either 2002 or 2005, the code was changed to say that cold water pipes can be used to satisfy antenna grounding requirements as long as the connection is made within five feet of the point at which it enters the building. There was an exception made for commercial buildings saying that the cold water pipe can be used anywhere provided it is substantially exposed and professionally maintained. The reason for taking the cold water pipe connection off the approved grounding path list is that its "integrity" cannot be readily assured.

Prior to small dish satellite, most of us "professionals" didn't give two hoots about meeting the NEC grounding requirements, but once DBS satellite came into being, the service providers mandated it, for their own reasons, one of which was surely so as to inoculate themselves from being blamed for anything that went wrong when a system was not grounded properly.

If you are grounding for your own safety, and if you know for sure that the copper water pipe is intact, then your fire and shock safety can be assured by grounding to it.


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## Rons2

Thanks for your response Mike.

I was just talking to my neighbor who told me the previous owners had some problem with the well and had placed plastic piping between the well and the house. So I guess I'm out a luck using the cold water lines.


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## AntAltMike

Incorrect.... I think. There is no requirement that cold water pipes be continuously metallic from the house to the well. If the cold water pipe is "bonded" to the ground electrode system, then continuous copper water pipe from that ground electrode connection point to your antenna mast or coax ground connection point provides a robust ground path that any and all electrons would be honored to travel upon.


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## Rons2

That's good news.

How do I test if the cold water pipes are bonded to the system?


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## DrDon

Please search for existing threads before starting a new one. There's a whole antenna grounding thread in the sticky notes. Moving thread.


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## AntAltMike

Rons2 said:


> ... How do I test if the cold water pipes are bonded to the system?


I don't think there is a practical or economical way to test it. Back a decade ago, when this topic was more intensively discussed, electricians said that the equipment used to actually measure the values of earth ground paths was very expensive and required expertise to use.

If you are lucky, you can see a huge ground wire attached to the water pipe where it enters your house, but if the attachment was made underground, your best bet might be to just ask a local electrician if water pipes that come from wells are ordinarily bonded to ground in your market. Heck, even if it isn't, it will still be a very good ground, just not technically code compliant.


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## Rons2

Sorry DrDon, I thought by doing so would be considered hijacking a thread.

Thanks Mike
As it turned out my wife suggested that it would be easier if I just placed the antenna in the attic and not worry about grounding. Since the coax was already there all I had to do was remove the antenna from the outside and mount it inside.

When the antenna was outside I was able to get 5 channels. Much to my surprise I was able to get 12 channels in the attic (two of the signals drops and the image becomes pixelated). 

I pointed the antenna same direction, go figure?

BTW its a RCA752R (Yagi type)


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## AntAltMike

I just moved the antenna on my own rooftop yesterday and didn't worry about grounding it. You'll get better reception on your rooftop.


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## Rons2

That's what I thought too. 

Right now the antenna is 5' lower and to the right. Maybe there was some interference when it was mounted outside that I was unaware of. 

According to antennapoint.com I should only get 8 channels. The two that I'm getting a bad signal from is 80 miles away. With 10 channels I figure I'm ahead of the game.

Thanks again for your help Mike.


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## tahoe77

*grounding complications*



AntAltMike said:


> The inside water pipe makes an excellent ground as long as there are no plastic repair sections between where you connect to it and where it enters the building.
> But it no longer satisfies the electrical code. Starting in either 2002 or 2005, the code was changed to say that cold water pipes can be used to satisfy antenna grounding requirements as long as the connection is made within five feet of the point at which it enters the building.
> 
> Installing a rooftop antenna next weekend so I can cancel Dish. Using the Antennacraft chimney mount (chimney is no longer in use). The problem is that this would be about a 50-60' run to ground the mast to my electrical svc ground rod. My electric svc panel ground has a second ground wire attached to my cold water pipe right where it enters the floor next to my water meter. This water pipe would be a very short run from the antenna mast, but being on the basement floor it doesn't meet the five feet quote I pasted above.
> 
> I'd be ok with running the ground to my main electrical svc ground, but I can't find aluminum 8awg or copper clad 17awg in anything over 25'. Pure copper would cost me a fortune!
> 
> Any suggestions?
> Also, what is the preferred type of clamp to attach my ground wire to my mast? The mast is just 2 sections of RCA antenna mast (painted pipe) that I purchased at Menards.


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## olyteddy

> Installing a rooftop antenna ...
> I'd be ok with running the ground to my main electrical svc ground, but I can't find aluminum 8awg or copper clad 17awg in anything over 25'. Pure copper would cost me a fortune!
> 
> Any suggestions?
> Also, what is the preferred type of clamp to attach my ground wire to my mast? The mast is just 2 sections of RCA antenna mast (painted pipe) that I purchased at Menards.


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-204812489-_-204812522-_-N


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## tahoe77

Thanks Olyteddy. So stranded insulated is ok?


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## olyteddy

tahoe77 said:


> Thanks Olyteddy. So stranded insulated is ok?


Not an electrician but the 'Great and Powerful GOOGLE' says:



> 250.62 Grounding Electrode Conductor Material. The grounding electrode conductor shall be of copper, aluminum, or copper-clad aluminum. The material selected shall be resistant to any corrosive condition existing at the installation or shall be protected against corrosion. The conductor shall be solid or stranded, insulated, covered, or bare.


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## AntAltMike

There is no legal requirement that masts be grounded according to the (Edit/add)*Model NEC* code, and the reports of insurance collection complications are always undocumented and unreferenced . _(Note: when a state or jurisdiction substantially adopts the NEC, it also creates and enacts it own enforcement regulation. Technically, whenever someone cuts a lug off a three prong plug or runs an extension cord under a rug, they are usually violating a provision of a state ordinance, and that would apply to failure to meet the letter(s) of their enacted mast grounding code. The next time someone reports enforcement will be the first, putting them one up on the local mattress tag police. - AAM)_

If I wanted the mast grounded economically to get me whatever safety befits that grounding is supposed to yield, I'd ground it with the largest ground wire I could afford, surely not to exceed 6 gauge, taking the shortest, straightest, most vertical path to an earth grounded metal structure that was metallically connected to the home grounding system or electrode.

In your situation, I'd just connect the mast to the cold water pipe with anything, even a strand of 14 gauge solid that is in the thermoplastic shielded cable, sometimes called by the popular brand name"Romex*"*, that you might have lying around.

I don't have the wherewithal to update my knowledge of the current wrinkles of the 2014 edition of the code, but last I knew, or sort of knew, there were some fuzzy standards for shortness and straightness of the initial length of mast grounding conductor that goes from the mast to some actually part of the ground electrode system, and last I knew, even a 6 gauge wire from the mast to your electrical service panel did not meet the letter of that requirement if it was 60 feet laterally away, so I see little point in spending much time and money meeting one or two of the NEC specifications when you know you are not going to meet all of them.

The code says to attach to the mast, not to the mast bracket, and grounding wire attachment is normally only permitted directly to screws that are used for no other purpose, but I am always satisfied to simply wrap the ground wire around a bracket screw or bolt that attaches the mast to the house or other exterior structure. If you do that, you should scrape some paint off the mast where it contacts the bracket. and probably smear grease on that surface so that it doesn't rust up.

You also are supposed to ground the outer conductor of the coax using an inexpensive "grounding block" at a point as near as possible to the point where it penetrates the house. It can be located inside or outside, but there is a strong consensus among lay installers that it is better to locate it outside.


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## tahoe77

AntAltMike said:


> There is no legal requirement that masts be grounded according to code, and the reports of insurance collection complications are always undocumented and unreferenced .
> 
> If I wanted the mast grounded economically to get me whatever safety befits that grounding is supposed to yield, I'd ground it with the largest ground wire I could afford, surely not to exceed 6 gauge, taking the shortest, straightest, most vertical path to an earth grounded metal structure that was metallically connected to the home grounding system or electrode.
> 
> In your situation, I'd just connect the mast to the cold water pipe with anything, even a strand of 14 gauge solid that is in the thermoplastic shielded cable, sometimes called by the popular brand name"Romex*"*, that you might have lying around.
> 
> I don't have the wherewithal to update my knowledge of the current wrinkles of the 2014 edition of the code, but last I knew, or sort of knew, there were some fuzzy standards for shortness and straightness of the initial length of mast grounding conductor that goes from the mast to some actually part of the ground electrode system, and last I knew, even a 6 gauge wire from the mast to your electrical service panel did not meet the letter of that requirement if it was 60 feet laterally away, so I see little point in spending much time and money meeting one or two of the NEC specifications when you know you are not going to meet all of them.
> 
> The code says to attach to the mast, not to the mast bracket, and grounding wire attachment is normally only permitted directly to screws that are used for no other purpose, but I am always satisfied to simply wrap the ground wire around a bracket screw or bolt that attaches the mast to the house or other exterior structure. If you do that, you should scrape some paint off the mast where it contacts the bracket. and probably smear grease on that surface so that it doesn't rust up.
> 
> You also are supposed to ground the outer conductor of the coax using an inexpensive "grounding block" at a point as near as possible to the point where it penetrates the house. It can be located inside or outside, but there is a strong consensus among lay installers that it is better to locate it outside.


Thank you AntAltMike!


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## Boseknows

I plan to install a Clearstream 4V HDTV antenna outdoors on my one-story, metal-roofed, ranch-style home. My home is equipped with a lightning protection system (aka lightning rods), and I am looking to mount the antenna mast on the side of the building, just under the apex of the roof. My questions are as follows:

1. As the antenna will be installed in close proximity to one of the lightning rods, will that increase or decrease the likelihood that the antenna will be struck by lightning? I anticipate the height of the antenna mast may surpass that of the lightning rod by around 6 inches.

2. Will the proximity of the antenna to the lightning rod have any significant effect on the TV signal (noise, interference, etc.)?

3. Assuming there is a need to ground my antenna, can/should I splice the 10-gauge ground wire from the antenna mast to the (much thicker) braided wire cable that grounds the lightning rods? If so, should I connect closer to the antenna or closer to the grounding rod?

4. Assuming there is a need to ground the coaxial cable connected to the antenna, can/should that be grounded to the same grounding rod to which the lightning rod is wired? I know that the coaxial grounding block should be placed where the cable enters the house, which in this case is a good 20 feet from the grounding rod. Would it be better for this grounding block to be wired to separate, much closer grounding rod, or would that cause a ground loop?


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## lexpilot

*Grounding/interference*

Hello guys, I am 35 miles north of Madison wi. I have a yagi on a 40 foot galvanized 2 inch pole that runs up the end of my house and extends above the peak. The pole fits over and is bolted to a solid steel post driven 3 ft into the ground. I am not worried about a lightning strike to the mast.

However, I do not have the shielding of the coax grounded and believe I am getting interference from a cell tower 1/2 mile away.
The channel 3 for madison wi broadcasts on digital 50 (+\- 700 MHz) puts out 600KW and is the most powerful from Madison. I have a CM7777 for the reception as I do not have line of sight.
On occasion, this channel will pixilate and drop out for a second or two. When it does this, the signal meter shows 80% then drops to 10 or 20% and drops off. When this symptom is prevalent I can put my fingers on the shielding part if the coax connector at a tv, sinking the shielding with my body the interference disappears and the signal is restored to 80%.
My coax run from the mast mounted amp to the power supply is uninterrupted.
Can I remove this assumed cell interference by running the coax through a grounding block sinked to the mast at the base?

I have read that in Europe there are filters that can cut out cell signals to digital tv especially with amplifiers because the cell signal gets amplified also.

Please don't holler at me for not grounding the shield in the first place because I had a C band dish in the old days and constantly battled corroded connections and tried to avoid that with a straight run from the antenna into the house.
Thanks in advance,
Lex


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## jbailey895

Hey guys:
I have a two story house approx 25 ft above ground, and my CM4228 and a hi VHF Yagi are mounted on an 8 ft galvanized mast, which sticks up above the roofline at least 4 ft. Mast is mounted to a stucco dormer on the roof, and is not currently grounded.

Had a fairly strong, windy storm last night (So Cal) and was concerned re the "lightning rod" on top of my house. I've read through this grounding thread, and have a couple Q's:

1. The coax enters my house on the opposite side of my breaker panel and presumably what I believe to be a grounding block from my cable co. (see pic below). The coax signal line enters the house in an area where there is a bunch of concrete, and no good area to ground. Any suggestions on where or how to ground, where my area is either stucco wall or hard concrete?

2. If I run a separate line to the grounding wire (on the other side of my house), do I need to split my signal wire, or do I attach the grounding wire to the mast itself? Should it be coax or different wire?

Thanks for any input,
Joel


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## holl_ands

4G/LTE Filter info...it it's ONLY 1/2-mile, you might want to try TWO in Series:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...p1r-long-term-reliability-2.html#post38398585


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## Phane

*Is grounding the mast as well as coax important?*

I'm having an installer come by to move my antenna from my attic to my roof in a few days. When they did the estimate, they said that they can run the existing coax in my attic through a roof vent and ground it with a grounding block to the ground from my main junction box in the basement (where the pre-amp's power inserter is anyway). I asked if the mast itself needs to be grounded as well (the guides I've read have you grounding both) and the installer told me no. They said it's state code in Minnesota that you only have to ground the coax and it doesn't need to be grounded outside and that grounding the coax grounds the whole system anyway.

Is this installer giving me the runaround or is only grounding the coax to my junction boxes ground wire adequate?


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## AntAltMike

Phane said:


> ...the installer told me...it's state code in Minnesota that you only have to ground the coax and it doesn't need to be grounded outside and that grounding the coax grounds the whole system anyway.
> 
> Is this installer giving me the runaround or is only grounding the coax to my junction boxes ground wire adequate?


Beats me! The Model National Electrical Code, which forms the basis for nearly all state and local codes, is not a public document. It is a law that is owned by a private agency. I know that is nonsense, but that is the way that it is. I bought my last one in 2008 or 2011; I don't remember which. I think paid $60 for it, but the book I bought had black printing on a gray background and was so difficult to read that I gave up on it. We had found and posted a link to the 2014 revision over at DBSTalk, and while I don't know how I'd even find it, it could be disabled by now.

Basically, each state enacts a statute that says that its electrical code is now the 2011 or 2014 edition of the NEC, with the following exceptions: 

I just googled for the Minnesota electrical code and here is what I found:

_Status Code 403: Your Request Has Been Denied This Document Is Not Currently Available To You 

Dear Fellow Citizen:

You have been denied permission to access this document at this time due to ongoing judicial proceedings in the following case: American Society for Testing and Materials ( ASTM ), National Fire Protection Association ( NFPA ), and American Society of Heating. Refrigerating, and Air-Conditioning Engineers ( ASHRAE ) v. Public.Resource.Org (Public Resource ), DCD 1:13-cv-01215, U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia [1] 

Your access to this document, which is a law of the United States of America, has been temporarily disabled while we fight for your right to read and speak the laws by which we choose to govern ourselves as a democratic society. _

So that tells me the world is still as nutty as it was the last time I checked.

It is possible that what your installer told you is accurate. Frankly, many people doubt the usefulness of grounding a mast that supports a an antenna. Supposedly, it drains off static electricity which otherwise makes it a more inviting target to lightning. Many physics professors disagree with that. We "professionals" only ground masts so that we will not be penalized for not grounding a mast when we have been paid to do so.

You probably can find out what your local code "requires" by calling your municipal inspector's office, but there typically is no enforcement of such a requirement and no penalty for non-compliance. You have a better chance of getting arrested by the mattress tag police. 

You can also find he Model NEC in your public library. The sections you would be looking for are 810 and 820, but that won't tell you the whole story. You would then have to find the state statute adopting the NEC to see what exceptions they have placed on that adoption. States with lousy soil sometimes make rules that are more demanding, states with little lightning sometimes exempt certain model code requirements.

If you care, I'm sure your installer will ground it for you if you pay him to do so. I wouldn't bother... and I have installed over a thousand antennas in my lifetime.


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## Phane

AntAltMike said:


> I wouldn't bother... and I have installed over a thousand antennas in my lifetime.


Thanks! That's good enough for me.


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## DrDon

In the future, please use existing threads instead of starting a new one.

Threads merged.


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## AntAltMike

FWIW, grounding jut the coax outer conductor does not usually ground the whole system since often, the mast and antenna elements are electrically isolated from the coax.


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## holl_ands

Phane said:


> I'm having an installer come by to move my antenna from my attic to my roof in a few days. When they did the estimate, they said that they can run the existing coax in my attic through a roof vent and ground it with a grounding block to the ground from my main junction box in the basement (where the pre-amp's power inserter is anyway). I asked if the mast itself needs to be grounded as well (the guides I've read have you grounding both) and the installer told me no. They said it's state code in Minnesota that you only have to ground the coax and it doesn't need to be grounded outside and that grounding the coax grounds the whole system anyway.
> 
> Is this installer giving me the runaround or is only grounding the coax to my junction boxes ground wire adequate?


NEC Code mandates that the Coax Downlead go through a COAX GROUND BLOCK, when connects the outer Coax Shield to "Ground" [usually the Metal Box containing the Electrical Circuit Breakers, which is in turn connected to 120/240 VAC "SAFETY" Ground]. When there is sufficient Voltage (100++ volts....NOT specified), Static Electricity buildup on the "Antenna" will be dissipated in an Arc across the Gap in the Ground Block. In the event of an actual Lightning HIT, the Coax, Ground Block and Ground Wires act as the "Path of Least Resistance" to hopefully "guide" the ionization trail along the exterior of the House, where it hopefully causes the least damage.

In the various OUTDOOR Baluns that I have measured (e.g. Channel-Master, Philips, RCA), the 300-ohm Twin-Leads have DC Connectivity to the 75-ohm Coax SHIELD [NOT found in most INDOOR Baluns]. Hence, this ensures that the Static Electricity on the ACTIVE Antenna Elements has a low-resistance path to GROUND. HOWEVER, note that the PASSIVE Antenna Elements, as well as the Reflector and Mast (i.e nearly ALL of the Antenna structure) does NOT have a path to Ground, except via a Separate Ground Wire connected to (at least) the Antenna Mast.

So JUST using a Coax Ground Block at the House Entry Point is NOT ADEQUATE to protect against Lightning....the MAST (as a minimum) needs to ALSO be connected to "Ground"....and should be as SHORT AS POSSIBLE, WELL AWAY from the House if possible, since it will carry MOST of the Dissipated Current. Note that most Reflector Systems and Yagi Booms (incl. directly attached Passive Reflector & Directors) are firmly mounted and hence have Electrical Connectivity to the MAST...so they also are "Grounded". Indeed the only Ungrounded parts of an Antenna occur in some DIY Implementations that use PVC or Fibreglass mounting systems.....but as long as the nearby MAST is Grounded, they should be good to go. Also recognize that since the ACTIVE Element(s) in most Antennas is SMALL (and surrounded by) the much LARGER Passive Elements, BOOM (if used) and Supporting MAST....so the Coax Ground Path only has to dissipate a relatively SMALL portion of the TOTAL Static Electricity Buildup. 

PS: Static Electricity Buildup on the Antenna and Mast is caused by HIGH WINDS, just like shuffling your feet across the Carpet. Static Electricity Buildup can ATTRACT nearby Lightning Strikes, depending on the relative POLARITY and Magnitude of Antenna and Cloud Charge buildups.....

BTW: Last year, the SAT Installers submitted a change to the National NEC Code which would no longer require Grounding SAT Dishes...their argument was that since they were mounted low on a House's Ledgerboard, the Dishes were no bigger a problem than the Metal Vent Pipes from Heaters and Plumbing systems. The change did NOT get into the latest version...so their argument fell flat....as it should, since many SAT Dishes are mounted at or close to the highest point on SOME Houses.


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## dheian

*Grounding for apartment dwellers*

My current setup has the antenna on an enclosed balcony but more and more I'm seeing people in my area with antennas on open balconies or poking out of open windows.

What options do apartment dwellers have for protecting themselves from lightning or wind-induced static? How can we properly ground?


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## rabbit73

> What options do apartment dwellers have for protecting themselves from lightning or wind-induced static? How can we properly ground?


I think the most important thing you should do is to ground the coax shield with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground, no matter where the antenna is located. This is to protect you from electrical shock because your antenna is connected to AC operated equipment that has leakage current even when operating properly. I have had three close calls with electrical shock. For example:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...oxes-non-hd-non-recording-69.html#post1457594
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...oxes-non-hd-non-recording-69.html#post1457668

If you don't have access to the house electrical system ground, you can use a known good ground like a copper water pipe that comes from underground or the grounding pin of a three wire outlet.

If your antenna is on a covered balcony, I don't see any static charge buildup hazard. Antennas that are on an open balcony are at small risk as indicated by the NEC requirement. The easiest way to ground them is to use a non-approved shortcut called the piggy-back method used by dish installers. This method uses coax that has an added messenger wire of 17 gauge copper clad steel. The 17 gauge wire connects to the mast of the antenna to drain the static charge. At the lower end, the messenger and the coax shield are grounded.

Satellite System Grounding 
Part 2 - NEC Overview
Presented by Todd Humphrey
http://www.dbsinstall.com/diy/Grounding-2.asp

Todd Humphrey doesn't speak for the NFPA that publishes the NEC code, but he has some ideas that are helpful. The local electrical inspector has the final say if you are willing to get him involved. Some inspectors are more friendly than others; a local electrician could tell you.


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## dheian

What about surge protectors/UPS units that have coax protection? Will that at least drain the static off through the unit's 3 prong plug? Trying to think of options that don't involve going across the apartment to the nearest pipe. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## rabbit73

dheian said:


> What about surge protectors/UPS units that have coax protection? Will that at least drain the static off through the unit's 3 prong plug?


Good question.

The surge protector strips that have coax connectors WILL ground the coax shield, but they have been known to degrade the TV signals. The coax surge protector in the strips has a device that is connected between the center conductor and the shield of the coax, and the center conductor is close to the AC lines so that it can pick up interference. I would rather connect the separate coax grounding block to the grounding pin socket of the 3-wire receptacle on the strip, using just the grounding pin of a 3-wire plug.

That is similar to what I did with my test setup that had enough leakage current that I could feel it. I used my 4-way splitter as a grounding block and connected it to the grounding pin of a 3-wire plug that was inserted into a known properly wired 3-wire receptacle.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/hsehld.html

A grounding block (called an ADU in the NEC) is essentially an F81 adapter with a way to connect it to ground. There is nothing connected between the center conductor and the shield as there is in coax surge protectors.


If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.


----------



## AntAltMike

Draining off the static is the responsibility of the mast ground, to supposedly make it a less inviting target to lightning. Grounding the coax outer shield is done to minimize the fire hazard that would otherwise develop if something shorted to the coax and made it electrically hot. Ignoring the letter of the NEC and speaking practically, rounding the shield does no ordinarily tend to drain off static on the antenna because the antenna is most often electrically isolated from the coax, the most common exception being log periodic antennas.


----------



## holl_ands

Unlike most INDOOR Baluns, in the OUTDOOR Baluns that I have measured (Channel-Master, Philips, RCA), the 300-ohm Twin-Leads have DC Continuity to the Shield of the 75-ohm Coax....hence Static Electricity Build-up in most Log-Periodic Elements (e.g. HD-769x, HBU-xxx, et.al.) will be drained off via the Coax at the Ground Block. In HD-769x Series, the Hi-VHF Elements are interconnected in pairs, with each connected directly forward to the UHF Folded Dipole, to which the Balun connects. I would hope that the new PCB (Printed Circuit Board) Baluns also provide DC Continuity...which they SHOULD inherently do as part of the Parallel Transmission Line Topography.

PASSIVE Yagi Elements (Reflectors and Directors) are typically connected directly to the Boom, and hence must have Static Electricity Build-Up drained via the Mast Ground....Ditto Bow-tie Reflector Assemblies attached to the Mast.

Re Apartment/Condo Balcony Antennas....Lightning is attracted to the HIGHEST point....so unless you are on one of the top floors, quit worrying so much [Q: Is there even a NEC Requirement???].....and BTW: there is probably a nearby Power Outlet that you can connect to using one of those 3-Prong to 2-Prong+Ground-Wire Adapters....


----------



## AntAltMike

My limit experience with measuring baluns for through continuity was the opposite. I found that the indoor ones I checked that looked like Tootsie Roll midgies with twinlead had thru-continuity but the fatter ones with solid wire leads did not. The one design "indoor" balun I found that always did have isolation were the push-on ones with the two tiny screws and serrated penetrating washers intended to interface FM, "T" antennas to 75 ohm female chassis connectors, but you wouldn't believe the frequency response of some of them. They weren't engineered for UHF frequencies and rolled off brutally above maybe 500 MHz.


----------



## Zar66

Why can't the coax and mast ground share the same wire to the grounding rod?


----------



## rabbit73

They can and often do, but it doesn't meet the NEC specifications.

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded with a separate 10 gauge copper wire or 17 gauge copper clad steel wire to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike. 










There is an alternate method used by dish installers, called the "piggy-back" method, but it doesn't meet code. It uses coax that has an attached 17 gauge copper clad steel messenger wire. That coax runs from the antenna to the grounding block, with the grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire. The steel wire runs from the mast to the grounding block.

Satellite System Grounding 
Part 2 - NEC Overview
Presented by Todd Humphrey

http://www.dbsinstall.com/diy/Grounding-2.asp

Todd Humphrey doesn't speak for the NFPA that publishes the NEC code, but he has some ideas that are helpful. The local electrical inspector (AHJ, authority having jurisdiction) has the final say if you are willing to get him involved. Some inspectors are more friendly than others; a local electrician could tell you.


----------



## Zar66

rabbit73 said:


> They can and often do, but it doesn't meet the NEC specifications.
> 
> If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded with a separate 10 gauge copper wire or 17 gauge copper clad steel wire to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is an alternate method used by dish installers, called the "piggy-back" method, but it doesn't meet code. It uses coax that has an attached 17 gauge copper clad steel messenger wire. That coax runs from the antenna to the grounding block, with the grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire. The steel wire runs from the mast to the grounding block.
> 
> Satellite System Grounding
> Part 2 - NEC Overview
> Presented by Todd Humphrey
> 
> http://www.dbsinstall.com/diy/Grounding-2.asp
> 
> Todd Humphrey doesn't speak for the NFPA that publishes the NEC code, but he has some ideas that are helpful. The local electrical inspector (AHJ, authority having jurisdiction) has the final say if you are willing to get him involved. Some inspectors are more friendly than others; a local electrician could tell you.


Thank you for that info. I originally piggy back my coax and mast ground but a friend of mine who is an electrician separated them when I had him inspect my work. He said they way I had it is common practice and probably OK but he likes do things by the book. I just wanted to only have one wire running down the side of my house to the grounding rod.


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## AntAltMike

I can't say for a fact that the "piggy-back" mast ground wire connection path necessarily does not meet code. The code gets revised every three years, and the last version I bought was 2008. I did download a pre-publication, developmental copy of the 2014 version but can't find it.

I think that starting in 2008, the path that the mast ground wire ran became more stringently defined, as I think that was the year they put ill-conceived length limits on it, which were sometimes physically impossible to meet. Based on what I knew the principles of mast grounding to be and to believe them to have become, I think that if the 17 gauge messenger wire was spliced using the coax ground block, that might under some circumstances be code compliant, provided that the resultant, mast ground wire path was compliantly short and straight.


----------



## Samshort

nm


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## Samshort

*Need Help Grounding Antenna Cable*

Outdoor Antenna. I'm going to put a antenna on my old Direct tv dish mast. The Direct tv cable runs into my house And is properly grounded
I am putting a winegard amp and a splitter on the antenna so I can run a second tv off the antenna. The second tv cable will be on the roof And I'll put it thru the wall into the room. Room is on second story. My house has steel siding if that's any help
My question is, how do I ground the second tv cable?


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## ProjectSHO89

There is no need to.


----------



## DrDon

Merged


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## AntAltMike

Each antenna lead going into the house is supposed to be grounded as near as possible to the point at which to enters the house, which is pretty fuzzy. If you simply attach a ground wire to the outdoor splitter, then that grounds both leads, but whether that can reasonably be construed to meet the code for grounding coax outer conductors depends on how far the distance is from the splitter to each wall penetration.

As has been written here many times, the only reason that most installers ground antenna leads is so that they won't be financially penalized by their employer for not having grounded them.


----------



## giambra

*Running ground wire over roof to the edge*

Hello,
I'm hoping to install a chimney mounted Antenna/Mast (Raleigh, NC). The chimney is not on the side of the house. The chimney comes up through a roof (there is a covered porch that surrounds the chimney, so to all sides of the chimney are roof). So, I'd have to run the coax and the ground wire across a portion of the roof (resting on the roof) to get an edge where I could then go down to ground rod. Is this possible? I thought part of the point of grounding was to not touch the house (otherwise a lighting strike could "leave" the ground wire and go into the house. I have searched this and other forums and have not found an answer. I don't know the model of the antenna, I inherited it, it's a basic outdoor mast mounted antenna. Thank you in advance. Tim


----------



## Channel99

giambra said:


> Hello,
> I'm hoping to install a chimney mounted Antenna/Mast (Raleigh, NC). The chimney is not on the side of the house. The chimney comes up through a roof (there is a covered porch that surrounds the chimney, so to all sides of the chimney are roof). So, I'd have to run the coax and the ground wire across a portion of the roof (resting on the roof) to get an edge where I could then go down to ground rod. Is this possible? I thought part of the point of grounding was to not touch the house (otherwise a lighting strike could "leave" the ground wire and go into the house. I have searched this and other forums and have not found an answer. I don't know the model of the antenna, I inherited it, it's a basic outdoor mast mounted antenna. Thank you in advance. Tim


Yes, it is OK to do that. Ground wires are commonly stapled to the house. Try to make the ground wire run as direct as possible, avoiding any extra or sharp bends, if possible.


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## NRadkov

Does the electrical grounding of the mast not attract more lightning?
I'm sorry for bad English


----------



## ProjectSHO89

NRadkov said:


> Does the electrical grounding of the mast not attract more lightning?
> I'm sorry for bad English


No, since the grounded mast is then at the same electrical potential as the ground.


----------



## Siriustoo

Does connecting the grounding block for the cable TV to the exterior of the electric meter using a corner clamp (or similar see picture) provide a proper ground if the pipes from the meter to the ground are PVC?
I ask because the HDMI ports on a TV and several receivers were damaged during a lightening storm. Nothing else was damaged which leads me to believe the cable was the source.
I've done a fair bit of reading on the topic including NEC Overview by Todd Humphrey but I'm in a fight with the insurance company over coverage and I'm not entirely clear if the metal meter housing is grounded if PVC pipes are used from the ground to the meter.


----------



## TampBayOTA

Siriustoo said:


> Does connecting the grounding block for the cable TV to the exterior of the electric meter using a corner clamp (or similar see picture) provide a proper ground if the pipes from the meter to the ground are PVC?


Who did that??? An electrician?? I hope not! If so report them to the state and/or local licensing board! NOW!

The local MSO installer??? That looks like a standard 1A thing from the Knight Industries playbook in this area.



Siriustoo said:


> I ask because the HDMI ports on a TV and several receivers were damaged during a lightening storm. Nothing else was damaged which leads me to believe the cable was the source.
> I've done a fair bit of reading on the topic including NEC Overview by Todd Humphrey but I'm in a fight with the insurance company over coverage and I'm not entirely clear if the metal meter housing is grounded if PVC pipes are used from the ground to the meter.


You more than likely will loose that claim. IMPROPER INSTALLATION. Your best to start a civil complaint against who ever did that install.

You should have a ground rod with #10 or better wire, running into the box to connect to the ground wires of the electric system. 

You should then have a ground block that runs back to that same ground rod from your OTA, DBS, and/or cable as applicable.

PVC pipes do not conduct, so they are not a substitute for the ground wire, and that mess in that photo... is so many wrongs, I don't know where to start.

Sorry you have an issue, but this is why you do things correctly or your claims will be denied by insurance companies. You would have to fight them any way... Standard SOP.. deny, deny, deny. GET A LAWYER! As much as I hate them, you have to fight slease with slease and more slease! LAWYER! Thats what the insurance companies hope you don't do! Any settlement.. cost of replacement, and ALL LEGAL FEES, ABOVE AND BEYOND any settlement offers. They pay you, they pay your slearsers separately.. So if this say a contingency basis.. and the sleasers want 30%, then the insurance company pays 130%.


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## Siriustoo

Good question. There was never a ground rod in the install. The meters were replaced when I installed a solar system. I think the electricians who did the solar upgrade just reconnected that ground connector to the new meters. 
Does this mean that the meter box is not grounded internally?
Nothing surprises me any more. We have such a housing boom in Canada that sloppy contractors are booked solid for 6 months.
My fishing buddy just told me he has time for fishing since the foundation guy for new house he was building used fine gravel for the weeping bed, and blocked all the drainage pipes... failed city inspection and now has to be dug out.


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## rabbit73

The clamp is an approved device, but its use assumes that the enclosure will be grounded. If PVC conduit is used with the enclosure, the enclosure will not be grounded unless there is a grounding conductor in the conduit that is connected to the house electrical system ground.

For your safety, I hope the house electrical system is properly grounded.

If the enclosure is grounded, and if the clamp makes good contact with the enclosure (through the paint), the coax is grounded.

Todd Humphrey doesn't speak for the NFPA that publishes the NEC code, but he has some ideas that are helpful. The local electrical inspector (AHJ, authority having jurisdiction) has the final say if you are willing to get him involved. Some inspectors are more friendly than others; a local electrician could tell you if that method is approved.
http://www.dbsinstall.com/diy/Grounding-2.asp



> I ask because the HDMI ports on a TV and several receivers were damaged during a lightening storm. Nothing else was damaged which leads me to believe the cable was the source.


HDMI ports are sensitive to damage, even with a properly grounded system. If I have a choice, I favor the component connection over HDMI.

If all of your equipment has 2-wire AC power cords, it might not be properly grounded. If one device has a 3-wire AC power cord that is properly grounded, the rest of the equipment is also grounded through the shields of the connected cables.

All AC operated equipment has leakage current, even when operating properly. For you personal safety, your system should be grounded to avoid electrical shock.


Case history of leakage current with converter box:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...oxes-non-hd-non-recording-69.html#post1457594


http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...oxes-non-hd-non-recording-69.html#post1457668


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## TampBayOTA

Siriustoo said:


> Good question. There was never a ground rod in the install.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Siriustoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> The meters were replaced when I installed a solar system. I think the electricians who did the solar upgrade just reconnected that ground connector to the new meters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Siriustoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does this mean that the meter box is not grounded internally?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With out being there physically, or photos lots off photos ...who knows...
> 
> I am going ASS u ME that it passed the local "hydro" (you canucks!   ) inspection from local regulatory agency(s).
> 
> 
> 
> Siriustoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing surprises me any more. We have such a housing boom in Canada that sloppy contractors are booked solid for 6 months.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do know that I've seen things done by local contractors here for MSO, HSD installs, that would get them fired... They hate HATE seeing me... I will stand there and watch them... I've learned that is the only way to get this stuff done to my specs and done right. They try and pawn off their networking and other BS features on unsuspecting users... modems in non bridge mode... URGGGGHHHH..
> 
> 
> 
> rabbit73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The clamp is an approved device,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not approved here, just checked with a licensed electrician.. NOPE. FAIL. Obviously that my be different... in CA... but
> 
> with a PVC pipe with who knows whats in it.. I think there is a big potential for a possible issue here.
> 
> My electric service comes in a PVC electric conduit... There is then a ground wire to a ground rod that comes out the meter box. Everything is right, nice, and close to this so I can tie into that ground quick and easy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rabbit73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> but its use assumes that the enclosure will be grounded. If PVC conduit is used with the enclosure, the enclosure will not be grounded unless there is a grounding conductor in the conduit that is connected to the house electrical system ground.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That was the comment that I got... IF IF IF.. yeah sure then you have a ground that meets NEC... . but per the *code in this area*, nope.. that wouldn't fly... Immediate failure, stop work order, remove it, come back and get another inspection.
> 
> I can also tell you right now that the reason the insurance company is not going to cover that, is that install... One of my side jobs for things, is insurance underwriting inspections... Something like that if I passed it screams.. PROBLEM... I snap a photo, note it on the report. underwriting reviews it.. May send you a letter, fix, and submit proof of fix and approval by licensed electrician and/or local building inspector.. you get bound.. Ignore it or not fix it.. . No coverage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rabbit73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For your safety, I hope the house electrical system is properly grounded.
> 
> If the enclosure is grounded, and if the clamp makes good contact with the enclosure (through the paint), the coax is grounded.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think who ever did that solar upgrade better be checked out...
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Siriustoo

The Electrical Safety Authority does inspections in Ontario. Costs $175 and I have had 3.
The first one was to replace my main panel that almost caught fire in my two year old house. Was out of town at the time so not sure what they did.
Second inspection the guy parked in the driveway, filled out the report and left.
Third inspection was for the Solar Panel. They guy did not want to wait around for the electricians to finish so he asked them what they were going to do, he said that was ok, gave them the safety sticker and left.
Now you know why I have two smoke detectors (one battery operated) on every level of my house.
Good thing it was a 9 year old plasma TV and two older receivers that got toasted.


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## rabbit73

That's quite a history of disaster.

Even with a perfect installation according to code, lightning will go where it wants to go.

We had a close strike that took out my computer. The computer was off, it was plugged in to a surge suppressor (Tripp Lite Isobar), and the surge suppressor switch was off.

The old 20-inch Sony CRT TV in the living room survived, but the colors were weird. I turned the TV off and then on again. I heard the normal "thunk" of the degausser, and the colors were back to normal. The shadow mask had been magnetized by the EMP of the strike.

I now unplug the power strip during storm season when not in use.


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## rabbit73

Siriustoo said:


> Good thing it was a 9 year old plasma TV and two older receivers that got toasted.


Were they connected to a surge suppressor strip that was properly grounded?



TampBayOTA said:


> Not approved here, just checked with a licensed electrician.. NOPE. FAIL. Obviously that my be different... in CA... but


Just because a clamp is "listed" doesn't mean an inspector is required to "approve" its use.












> The PVSC51CFUL is an NEC approved ground clamp used to attach the ground wire to the meter box. The binding screw penetrates the paint of the meter box. Use in conjunction with other grounding supplies to protect against power surges and lightning strikes. Works excellently for grounding residential cable as well as satellite television systems and for grounding off-air antennas. UL approved.
> 
> *Features*
> DIRECTV Approved
> UL listed device. For coax entry point grounding connections
> No drilling required to connect this device
> Made from Copper Clad Steel














> The Senior Industries SI-2167SLM-WL is engineered to provide an electrical ground connection to customer meter boxes without the need for a ground rod, ground rod clamp or long ground wire runs.
> 
> *Features:*
> Patented screw design (cone and tip arrangement) for intimate ground to base metal
> No preparation of meter box surface required
> No need to loosen clamp to attach or remove ground wires
> UL and CUL listed
> Patented
> DIRECTV Approved












The latest method is the IBTB, Intersystem Bonding Termination Bar, which provides grounding connections for many services and a lay-in connection for the house grounding conductor, which must not be disconnected when in use.


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## shortyg83

*Ground for Cable?*

Ever since I moved into my house I get random 60hz humm or slight static through my speakers. I have tested this with different amps and different speakers and I cannot get rid of the issue. I have assumed it was interference from the Cable in my house or a bad ground. Today while trouble shooting I noticed my Cable is not grounded at all outside. The wire come from the pole and into a service box. Inside the box is a Solid connector that connects the wire from pole to the wire going into my house. And there is also a grounding screw with a ground wire attached. I followed that ground wire down and it is cut about 2 feet from the ground and just hanging against my house. Is this a problem? Shouldn't it be grounded to the ground pole from my electrical?

I have digital cable in my area and I just don't know what the deal is. Could this be causing my problem? Should I ground it?


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## Jorgek

I had a similar issue. Hum on the cable tv feed. I grounded the cable to the cold water pipe and the hum disappeared.
However you should call the cable provider. Hum is not normal and an indication of a problem.
I later called the cable company. They replaced the drop and that fixed the problem.


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## TazExprez

*Grounding Fios, Optimum, and antenna together.*

I currently have Fios and my other local provider is Optimum. I am thinking of installing an Antenna in the attic. I have an old ground that is connected to a rod in the front of the house. I also have a newer ground that is connected to the electric meter. This newer one was installed by an Optimum technician because he said the the older one was "out of spec." I currently have about half of the RG6 wires and a CAT5e wire ran outside of the house. I am planning on rewiring the house and running all of the RG6 and CAT6 wires indoors. I am also planning on relocating the Fios ONT indoors. I plan on running 2 RG6 wires and 4 CAT6 wires to many rooms. I would like to have the antenna connected to every TV. Can I ground Fios, Optimum, and the antenna together to the same wiring block? Would I even need to ground the Fios ONT if it is installed inside? Could the grounding block be inside the house?

Thanks for any help.


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## DrDon

Please use existing threads when possible.

Topics merged.


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## HunterZ0

Is it really necessary to have the coax grounding block at the entry point to the house and/or right next to the ground rod, or can I put the block near the antenna instead? It seems like running a ground wire from the ground rod up to the antenna site and then grounding both the mast and coax there would allow me to run the coax into the house via a different route than the ground wire.

Would this increase risk of lightning trying to travel the coax instead of the ground wire?

FYI, I found a video where they appear to do this:


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## Primestar31

HunterZ0 said:


> Is it really necessary to have the coax grounding block at the entry point to the house and/or right next to the ground rod, or can I put the block near the antenna instead? It seems like running a ground wire from the ground rod up to the antenna site and then grounding both the mast and coax there would allow me to run the coax into the house via a different route than the ground wire.
> 
> Would this increase risk of lightning trying to travel the coax instead of the ground wire?
> 
> FYI, I found a video where they appear to do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owUyyUt0aTk


You can put a ground rod at the antenna location, however you MUST then run a ground wire to the houses regular ground rod and bind them together. If you don't, there can be voltage differentials that can cause problems for you.

I had to do this myself, and I have an 110ft long 8 gauge solid ground wire running from the ground rod at the antenna, around my house, and connected to the houses regular ground rod. Works perfectly.


----------



## HunterZ0

Primestar31 said:


> You can put a ground rod at the antenna location, however you MUST then run a ground wire to the houses regular ground rod and bind them together. If you don't, there can be voltage differentials that can cause problems for you.
> 
> I had to do this myself, and I have an 110ft long 8 gauge solid ground wire running from the ground rod at the antenna, around my house, and connected to the houses regular ground rod. Works perfectly.


That's not quite what I'm talking about.

I'm thinking of installing antennas near my second-story roof peak, which is in the middle of the roof. I would run a ground wire to my existing ground rod, because there isn't any better option (installing another ground rod would just mean the pain of bonding the two rods).

In order to avoid having to run the coax all the way to the service ground, and then halfway back through my house to the TV, I was thinking that if I ground the coax up at the antenna I could then run it into the house via an attic vent (much like in the video I linked). The ground wire would ground the antenna mast(s) and the coax on the roof, then run down to my ground rod.

Is this fine, or is there a compelling reason to just ground the mast(s) and run the ground rod and coax down the roof together, then ground the coax at the ground rod?


----------



## Primestar31

HunterZ0 said:


> That's not quite what I'm talking about.
> 
> I'm thinking of installing antennas near my second-story roof peak, which is in the middle of the roof. I would run a ground wire to my existing ground rod, because there isn't any better option (installing another ground rod would just mean the pain of bonding the two rods).
> 
> In order to avoid having to run the coax all the way to the service ground, and then halfway back through my house to the TV, I was thinking that if I ground the coax up at the antenna I could then run it into the house via an attic vent (much like in the video I linked). The ground wire would ground the antenna mast(s) and the coax on the roof, then run down to my ground rod.
> 
> Is this fine, or is there a compelling reason to just ground the mast(s) and run the ground rod and coax down the roof together, then ground the coax at the ground rod?


Yes, you can use a coax ground block on the mast to ground the coax wire, as long as the mask is grounded to the ground rod. Just make sure that there is for sure continuity between the coax ground block and the mask pipe. File or sand them as needed to make sure of that, then drill a small hole and use a sheet metal screw to screw the block to the mask pipe.


----------



## HunterZ0

Primestar31 said:


> Yes, you can use a coax ground block on the mast to ground the coax wire, as long as the mask is grounded to the ground rod. Just make sure that there is for sure continuity between the coax ground block and the mask pipe. File or sand them as needed to make sure of that, then drill a small hole and use a sheet metal screw to screw the block to the mask pipe.


Thanks. I was thinking I would probably just strip any insulation off the last several feet of ground wire, then run it through all the ground clamps for the coax and mast(s).


----------



## AntAltMike

HunterZ0 said:


> Is it really necessary to have the coax grounding block at the entry point to the house and/or right next to the ground rod, or can I put the block near the antenna instead?


I haven't read the two most recent code revisions (it updates every three years) but for the two decades before that, when I used to read it scrupulously, it always said that the coax must be grounded as near as possible to the point where it enters the house. The coax connection point, most commonly a grounding block, does not have to be outside the house, and the ground screw on a nearby splitter can serve as the grounding wire connection point.

The reason that it has to be near the entry point is that a high voltage wire could break loose in a storm and come in contact with it, creating a safety or fire hazard, so the ground connection point has to be between that point of contact and the house.

Last I knew, the ground wire had to be approximately equal in current carrying capability to the outer connector of the coax, which is nearly impossible, and the code used to further say that it could not be smaller than 14 gauge, so you can't use the 17 gauge copper clad steel "messenger" wire that is often used to ground the mast.


----------



## dehinson

Hello,

I have a CATV box attached to my house, The cable comes into a grounding block and then to a coaxial splitter. The splitter is not grounded. So, could I save on db lose if I remove the grounding block and just ground the splitter? Is this compliant to code?

Thank you in advance.

Regards.


----------



## rabbit73

The signal loss in the grounding block is only a small fraction of a dB, equal to the loss in an F-81 adapter. Most cable companies are required to ground the coax cable before any splitting, because the splitting might change. What you want to do would work, but for safety reasons, I advise you not to make your proposed change.


----------



## CherylJosie

I recently moved back to my house, hung my old Channel Master 4228 8-bay UHF bowtie antenna in the attic, and hired a satellite/OTA TV installer to wire it.


The antenna is in the exact middle of the attic. The installer did not ground anything.



The cable exits the attic at one gable vent for the downstairs signal and at the other gable vent for the upstairs master bedroom signal where there was no clean way to penetrate directly from the attic.


There is an old DirecTV dish and old Comcast cabling still in place. We didn't disturb it.


Where should I ground the cabling? I was thinking of just putting a lightning arrester/grounding block inline with the antenna and connecting its ground wire inside the box that holds the floodlight fixture above the attic hatch? It is the closest grounded fixture and I don't want to run a long wire through the crawlspace.


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## Ratman

If it's in the attic... don't worry about grounding the antenna.


----------



## CherylJosie

Ratman said:


> If it's in the attic... don't worry about grounding the antenna.



I was not planning on grounding the antenna, but I would like to ground the coax, particularly since it runs along the outside of the building from the gable peaks.


I'm not so concerned about lightning here. I have only witnessed maybe three Fremont electrical storms in the past 25 years and none of them touched down (they were all atmospheric discharges).


What I am more concerned about is an electrical fault that energizes the cable with line voltage. I figured that grounding the cable at the light fixture in the attic is sufficient but I am not versed in electrical code.


----------



## Ratman

No need to ground the antenna, mast or coax if it's in the attic.


----------



## HunterZ0

CherylJosie said:


> I was not planning on grounding the antenna, but I would like to ground the coax, particularly since it runs along the outside of the building from the gable peaks.
> 
> 
> I'm not so concerned about lightning here. I have only witnessed maybe three Fremont electrical storms in the past 25 years and none of them touched down (they were all atmospheric discharges).
> 
> 
> What I am more concerned about is an electrical fault that energizes the cable with line voltage. I figured that grounding the cable at the light fixture in the attic is sufficient but I am not versed in electrical code.


Does it run anywhere near your electrical service ground? The ideal thing to do is to install a coax grounding block near your electrical service ground, bond it to that, and run the coax through it.


It probably doesn't meet code, but bonding to a random electrical circuit ground is probably better than nothing. You can buy power strips that have a coax ground too.


----------



## Ratman

The device to which you connect the antenna should suffice as a ground. And it's probably up to code too.


----------



## rabbit73

*Leakage Current of AC Operated Equipment*



CherylJosie said:


> What I am more concerned about is an electrical fault that energizes the cable with line voltage. I figured that grounding the cable at the light fixture in the attic is sufficient but I am not versed in electrical code.


Even though it is not required by the NEC, I feel that it is a good precaution to ground the coax shield even for an indoor antenna. I have had three close calls with electrical shock, so I'm probably more cautious than most. I bought a leakage current tester to check equipment that I or others would be using.

The coax is connected to AC operated equipment. All AC operated equipment has leakage current, even when operating properly. If the AC operated equipment malfunctions, you will be protected from electrical shock if the coax is grounded with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground. If the coax is connected to AC operated equipment that has a 3-wire power cord that is connected to a properly wired 3-wire receptacle, that would probably ground the coax shield. If the AC operated equipment only has a 2-wire power cord, you would need to connect the grounding block to the house electrical system ground another way.

My last encounter with electrical shock was when I was calibrating the signal strength scales of two converter boxes. I had a lot of AC operated equipment connected together and the coax was not grounded. When I touched the metal strip on the edge of the counter that was grounded and the 4-way coax splitter, I felt a mild shock. Even though the shock was well below the let-go current (above 5mA), I felt it necessary to find out why I was being shocked. It turns out that the normal individual leakage currents were being added together, so that it was above my level of perception.



















I made a temporary connection with a spare 3-wire plug, and the leakage current dropped to zero.










Another case history:
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81...oxes-non-hd-non-recording-69.html#post1457594

https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81...oxes-non-hd-non-recording-69.html#post1457668


----------



## CherylJosie

HunterZ0 said:


> Does it run anywhere near your electrical service ground? The ideal thing to do is to install a coax grounding block near your electrical service ground, bond it to that, and run the coax through it.
> 
> 
> It probably doesn't meet code, but bonding to a random electrical circuit ground is probably better than nothing. You can buy power strips that have a coax ground too.



The drop lead from the attic to the crawl space runs out the south gable vent and along the southwest corner rainwater downspout, alongside pre-existing (unused) DirecTV and Comcast cabling. There is a southwest corner ground wire from the roof-line DirecTV splitter that routes down the spout with that bundle of coax wiring, but the ground wire connects to a copper pipe for an outside spigot at ground level rather than to the electrical service.


The electrical service is on the southeast corner and Comcast service enters/grounds next to it. No way I can wire directly to it conveniently.



I think I will probably ground the feed off the antenna on the attic light wiring. It is the easiest to accomplish (I don't have to call the installer to cut the attic-to-crawlspace drop and add outside connectors, or buy a tool, or use twist-on outdoors) and it ensures that when the antenna is in the circuit, all of the attached and active circuitry off the downstream splitters is grounded.


I already spent several days experimenting with the antenna arrangement and signal path, so I am not interested in spending more time on it until later. In the meantime I will run an end point branch of the coax through the grounded UPS in my upstairs bedroom. The upstairs wiring is relatively stable.


----------



## CherylJosie

rabbit73 said:


> Even though it is not required by the NEC, I feel that it is a good precaution to ground the coax shield even for an indoor antenna. I have had three close calls with electrical shock...


 I have also been directly shocked many times off full line voltage by accident. It Herz! (tm)
Actually it is a small miracle that I am alive at all given that once I was shocked by an ungrounded and leaking pool pump that I switched on with a metal bat-handle toggle while standing barefoot in mud. It was probably just the momentum of my moving hand, my right-handedness, and the resistance of the ground fault through a trickle of leaking chlorinated water that spared me. The belated response of the parents in the home was, "Kids, let us switch on the power because the pump is leaking and it shocks people." Yup, that fixes it!

The other times I got shocked it was my own fault for being careless while troubleshooting or wiring. Once I also stuck the metal tip of a screwdriver into a metal ceiling light box to push the wires aside and blew the tip off the screwdriver with an arc when I cut through the insulation on the wire.

The other hazard that really caught me off-guard was the old black-and-white Zenith tube TV set from the early 1960s, the one with the motorized VHF tuner switch that makes a sound like "zdit zdit zdit" while it rotates through its stops, and also with the two-prong polarized power plug that has the neutral connected to the grounded chassis(!).

That was actually legal when that TV was manufactured because there was no such thing as grounded house wiring or double insulated appliances back then and removing a knob from any of the metal control shafts exposed the 'grounded' chassis. The plug was polarized at the connectors at both ends. It had the TV side of the cord attached to the removable rear fiber board cover with a metal clip so that the integrated power cord was automatically removed with the cover for replacing tubes. Remember those?

An engineer had fitted the Zenith with a DIY composite input and signal source switch on the rear of the chassis to use the TV as a DIY monitor, and then connected the 'monitor' to a three-prong grounded computer via shielded coax.

I unknowingly reversed the polarized and chassis-connected power plug on the Zenith with an unpolarized three-to-two adapter to fit it into an ungrounded extension/splitter and make room for more plugs to hook up the Lionel trains, not realizing (nor could I even understand at that age) that the chassis of the TV was intended to be grounded to the neutral with the polarized plug. I blew a ground trace and diode off the main board of the computer.

Remember the Southwest Technical Products 6800 PC kit from the early 1970s? He had extended it from the 4K ram it shipped with to an amazing 32K with a homemade 8-slot bus-extending daughter board.

You can see from this picture that such an extender does not fit within the case. The PC was sitting caseless and exposed on the work table. I heard the crackle and saw the flash out of the corner of my eye when the ground trace and diode vaporized.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SWTPC6800_open.jpg

Fortunately I did not get shocked by the wiring fault, and it was a simple repair on the main board, but it makes me wonder why an electrical engineer who should have known better would create such a hazardous DIY setup? He kept using that 'monitor' with that PC for years afterward despite the danger. SMH

Thanks to all for your suggestions. I only asked because I have also gotten tickled several times off coax while attaching lines to splitters in various locales. It was not a big deal, but it was annoying and I was curious what the appropriate method would be to address it since the contractor neglected to.

Regardless of anyone's interpretation of NEC (is it really an 'indoor' antenna if the split wiring exits through both gable vents at either end of the peak and then the split wiring also runs down the exterior of the building before re-entering at a lower level?) there is a potential electrical hazard from leakage that I prefer to address proactively and appropriately. Apparently, any old ground will do, so that's my plan until I have the energy to climb up the ladder into that attic again and ground at the signal source where the connection is unlikely to be broken by future wiring changes within the living space.
PS if anyone knows how to keep an Ubuntu browser from inserting superfluous line feeds on this forum I would appreciate it. I have tired of editing every post to remove them afterward. This time I am posting with only a single carriage return and all the paragraphs are run together in the editor making it tough to read what I am composing.
I guess I will find out in a second if that formats properly...


----------



## holl_ands

Worse I got was when I was a 23-yo Field Engineer working Oversees and got a taste of trickle leakage when checking to see if a new 440 VAC 3-phase, 150 kW circuit had yet been activated (Happy Surprise....it WAS!!! Can finally get to WORK!!!). It was raining and although I was indoors, there was enough humidity on my VOM's High Voltage Test Leads to ZAP me enough so I didn't immediately RELEASE. WOW.....nothing like 120 VAC....and I only got a small TASTE of it. Memo to Self: Next time dealing with 440 VAC, be sure to use protective GLOVES.....and ALWAYS have a BUDDY close at hand watching you!!!!

Much more recently, I was surprised replacing an Outdoor Light at my daughter's house. Not sure of which devices are on each circuit, I simply shut the entire House down at the Breaker Panel. I even used my DVM to measure AC Voltage between BLACK & WHITE & GROUND wires just to make sure that the circuit is dead (I've learned to never trust ANYTHING). To my surprise, I still got a small jolt when trying to disconnect the old fixture. Investigating further, I found that there was about 20-30 VDC Voltage between BLACK & GROUND wires....which went away when turning OFF the Dishwasher Circuit....so the Capacitor(s) in the Dishwasher's EMI/RFI Filter had apparently been charged up when attached to AC Power, maintaining a healthy DC Voltage when OFF to Zap me on a DIFFERENT circuit. Memo to Self: Next time check for DC as well as AC Voltage....also advisable to turn ALL of the Circuit Breakers at the Entry Panel to OFF position.


----------



## rabbit73

CherylJosie said:


> I have also been directly shocked many times off full line voltage by accident. It Herz! (tm)
> Actually it is a small miracle that I am alive at all given that once I was shocked by an ungrounded and leaking pool pump that I switched on with a metal bat-handle toggle while standing barefoot in mud. It was probably just the momentum of my moving hand, my right-handedness, and the resistance of the ground fault through a trickle of leaking chlorinated water that spared me. The belated response of the parents in the home was, "Kids, let us switch on the power because the pump is leaking and it shocks people." Yup, that fixes it!


That was a close one; luck was with you.

Thank you for telling us about your adventures with electricity; they parallel mine.

When I was a kid, I repaired table model radios that had the tube filaments wired in series; the chassis was connected to one side of the line cord. I used a neon tester to see if the chassis was hot.

I was using an old piece of HP test equipment at work that bit me. The removable AC power cord had the old style 3-pin power connector, but the molded-on plug on the other end only had two blades that were the same size; it wasn't polarized. I had our medical department Xray the connector, and saw to my horror that the connector grounding pin was connected to one side of the line. The odds of a hot cabinet were 1 in 2. Obviously, someone had put the wrong power cord on the equipment. What I couldn't understand was, what could be the possible use for a cord wired like that? The only thing I could think of is if the chassis had to be grounded through the neutral to monitor small voltages.












> Thanks to all for your suggestions. I only asked because I have also gotten tickled several times off coax while attaching lines to splitters in various locales. It was not a big deal, but it was annoying and I was curious what the appropriate method would be to address it since the contractor neglected to.


Glad to hear that when I solved the leakage current puzzle for me, I also solved it for you. My wife took a box fan to work, but was told that she couldn't use it because it only had a 2-wire cord. I put a 3-wire cord on it to ground the metal cabinet and they OKed it for her.


> PS if anyone knows how to keep an Ubuntu browser from inserting superfluous line feeds on this forum I would appreciate it. I have tired of editing every post to remove them afterward. This time I am posting with only a single carriage return and all the paragraphs are run together in the editor making it tough to read what I am composing.


I have the same problem with my IE11 browser. I didn't used to have the problem until the forum installed "new and improved" software that had a lot of bugs which have not been completely corrected. The one that bothers me the most is when the full width of the post doesn't show when a previous post has a very wide image > 750 pixels.


----------



## CherylJosie

rabbit73 said:


> I have some of those cords here, or used to. Thanks for the warning!
> 
> Regarding why they did this, who knows? Maybe they had too much spare cash lying around and wanted to give some away to widows in exchange for early termination of employees and customers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have the same problem with my IE11 browser.
> 
> 
> 
> I just discovered a fix. Using (soft return, or is it called a hard return? I can't remember) eliminates the line feed (but looks identical in the editor SMH). The extra line feed is not a problem when editing an existing reply, only when editing an original reply.
Click to expand...


----------



## J_ph

*What happened to my coax?*

What happened to my coax?

I have a CM4228hd antenna and CM7777 amp. There is a ground from the antenna and on the block that enters the house. This "burned" or corroded coax is at a coupling in the external coax cable. The black on the outside is just residue from electrical tape. It was sealed with the tape, and neither the tape or outer coax showed any signs of distress, just the inside. I've replaced the coupling and packed the connection with dielectric grease. Is this the result of water in the cable?

thanks in advance!


----------



## rabbit73

J_ph said:


> What happened to my coax?
> 
> 
> Is this the result of water in the cable?


Looks like corrosion from water in the coax.


----------



## J_ph

Thanks Rabbit

I was afraid of that. Is the problem compounded by the use of a powered amplifier?

and is there any hope that using dielectric grease will help.... or do I have to climb up on the roof 

If I need to run new coax cable does anyone have suggestions on what type/brand for exterior? 

Also... would connectors like the attached image work (THE CIMPLE CO - Coaxial Cable Compression Fitting for RG6 Coax Cable – with Weather Seal O Ring and Water Tight Grip.)? 

and has anyone tried any of the cheap compression tools with success?

thanks again!


----------



## rabbit73

Sooner or later you will have to replace the whole length of coax because the water came down from the top like the coax was a hose. The upper end at the preamp must come from the bottom of an enclosure where the upper end is protected from water entry.

I haven't had much experience with compression connectors; I buy coax with them already on.
https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=SSCBLS


https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=SSCBLQ



> Is the problem compounded by the use of a powered amplifier?


I doubt it. A preamp can help protect the upper end of the coax if the connectors are on the bottom.


----------



## AntAltMike

nathanfernandesme said:


> HDTV are becoming popular a lot now-a-days. However if anyone is interested in getting technical support regarding them then you can visit *Roku error code 006*



If they're good, they could put us out of business!


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## rabbit73

Looks like nathan deleted his posts.


----------



## old tv guy

Actually,you should always ground a attic mounted antenna the same as one on the roof.
Lightning travels miles through open air so 3\4 inch of plywood and shingles won't stop it.
And even though the NEC has finally began to improve their grounding codes after decades of people like me complaining, they still have room for improvement on antenna grounding which may take another decade or two for them to finally change


----------



## old tv guy

J_ph said:


> What happened to my coax?
> 
> I have a CM4228hd antenna and CM7777 amp. There is a ground from the antenna and on the block that enters the house. This "burned" or corroded coax is at a coupling in the external coax cable. The black on the outside is just residue from electrical tape. It was sealed with the tape, and neither the tape or outer coax showed any signs of distress, just the inside. I've replaced the coupling and packed the connection with dielectric grease. Is this the result of water in the cable?
> 
> thanks in advance!


Water and current are a bad mix inside a connection.
And if you are using steel center conductor coax it makes it even worse.
Always seal coax connections with "coax seal" or similar butyl rubber coax wrap.
The connections atop every 400 foot cell tower are always sealed that way for good reason.
And they don't ever use grease in connectors.


----------



## AntAltMike

old tv guy said:


> Actually,you should always ground a attic mounted antenna the same as one on the roof.
> Lightning travels miles through open air so 3\4 inch of plywood and shingles won't stop it.
> And even though the NEC has finally began to improve their grounding codes after decades of people like me complaining, they still have room for improvement on antenna grounding which may take another decade or two for them to finally change


???

I followed the evolution of the code from 1999 to 2011. Mast grounded with 10 gauge copper, 8 gauge aluminum or 17 gauge copper clad steel, to an 8' x 1/2" dia ground rod, bonded to the ground electrode system with 6 gauge copper wire.. Outer coax grounded to the ground electrode system as near as possible to the point where it enters the building with wire approximately equal in current carrying capacity as the shield itself. 

They did prohibit using the copper water pipe for that ground I think in 2002, not because it was technically deficient, but rather, because it's ground path could be broached by subsequent plumbing repair with plastic pipe. I think that in 2011 they put a limit on how far the ground wire path of the mast ground could veer laterally from straight down, but that really wasn't an improvement because the purpose of that wire was to drain static discharge, not to draw the lightning current away from other paths.

An antenna in an attic doesn't tend to "attract" lightning because it is not the highest metallic object and is not subject to developing a static charge due to the wind blowing across its elements.


----------



## old tv guy

I was doing single point grounding years before the NEC finally woke up and corrected their grounding codes and i still feel they have plenty of room for improvement when it
comes to gounding of antennas.
While the NEC has completely different grounding codes for air terminals, they still havn't recognized that roof mounted antennas act just like air terminals when hit by lightning.


----------



## Tschmidt

old tv guy said:


> While the NEC has completely different grounding codes for air terminals, they still havn't recognized that roof mounted antennas act just like air terminals when hit by lightning.


I'm late to the party but I didn't think the NEC (NFPA 70) addresses lightning, it is an electrical safety spec. Lightning protection is covered by NFPA 780.


----------



## scott55t

I'm getting different NEC standards on this, so I nwated to ask on the forutm, syould you only run a ground to the mast and ground block / lightning artrestor, or should the mount also have a dedicated ground wire ran to it? Or only for certain types of mounts (if so, which m ount types require a dedicated ground wire)?


----------



## scott55t

I realize the coax cable should be grounded by a ground block or lightning arresstor per NEC code and also the bottom of the mast should be grounded. What about the mount that holes the mast? I found a few old manuals that mention it, but everythign recent doesn't even mentioned also grounding the mount. Is it necessary?


----------



## rabbit73

scott55t said:


> I realize the coax cable should be grounded by a ground block or lightning arresstor per NEC code and also the bottom of the mast should be grounded. What about the mount that holes the mast? I found a few old manuals that mention it, but everythign recent doesn't even mentioned also grounding the mount. Is it necessary?


 Hello, scott55t; welcome to the forum.



> NFPA 70®
> National Electrical Code®
> 2014 Edition
> 810.15 Grounding. Masts and metal structures supporting
> antennas shall be grounded in accordance with 810.21.
> 
> 810.20 Antenna Discharge Units - Receiving Stations.
> (C) Grounding. The antenna discharge unit shall be
> grounded in accordance with 810.21.


The code is ambiguous. I'm not a code expert, but my interpretation is that you only need two grounding conductors, one for the grounding block (ADU) and one for the mast, because the mast is higher than the mount and the mount is already bonded to the mast. However, the interpretation by the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction), who is usually the local electrical inspector, becomes the local law that is binding on you.

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge which will tend to discourage a strike, but the system will not survive a direct strike.


----------



## Joev1983

*Outdoor channel master tv antenna grounding question*

Hello all and thanks for having me. I need some advice and joined this forum hoping to be pointed in the right direction.

First off I am not an electrician and dont know the first thing about grounding or wiring. I will try to explain it the best I can.

I recently moved to Middle Tennessee in a very rural area. No cable tv or internet is currently available at the home we purchased with a few acres. Did I mention cell phones barely get a signal out here and only ar&t work we had to switch over upon moving here.

I bought a small indoor tv antenna and stuck it in the window and we were able to pull in only 4 channels. On some days if I rescan we can get 7 or 8 but can rarely watch them as they pixelize and disaapear. 

I talked to a couple people at a local market who have old school tv antennas (not cheap modern chinese crap) and are picking up 50-70 channels from nashville and even some from Huntsville Alabama. I stopped by my nearest neighbors house to see his set up and he does in fact pull in far more channels than I imagined. 

Out in my yard I have a antenna mast tower approx. 20 ft high with no antenna on it. Its heavy duty and in the perfect place on the property to pull in a signal from Nashville 60 miles away to the north. 100 ft from the antenna mast is my living room wall where our tv is located. 

So I went to channelmaster and purchased the longest range outdoor antenna they had (after weeks of researching antennas) I will attach a photo of the antenna. Its rated at 100 miles, im aware its debatable if a vhf signal can reach an antenna at 100 miles but I wanted the best chance at doing so. The transmission towers im after are 60-70 miles and Im getting a few with a $20 walmart indoor antenna. Buying this big boy for outside and having it high up on a mast has to increase my chances to pick up the signals. 

The antenna I purchased does not have a motorized rotor as I didnt want to run electricity to the mast. Just point it in the degrees of Nashville and bolt it down as my neighbors have done. I purchased the antenna and a pre amp booster suggested for my zip code by channel master. The pre amp does not require its own electric as it works by taking electric it receives from the coaxial cable it uses to attach to the antenna. Antenna and booster arriving tomorrow. 

I then started thinking about the need for grounding the antenna and the coaxial cable so purchased a coax ground block and a spool of #10 solid copper grounding wire. I also purchased a 5 ft copper grounding rod to ground both the antenna mast and the coaxial cable at the mast and have 120 ft of burial coaxial cable running to the house under ground. I thought everything out carefully as fas as parts and supplies I would need. Today I went out and sunk the grounding rod into the soil near the mast leaving only the top 6" sticking up so I can attach my copper. 

I came in the house and started reading a little about grounding to make sure I would do it right and now I am not confident that I am. Most articles I find pertain to antennas mounted on the roof of the home. And the antennas are grounded to the homes main ground under the electric panel outside of the house. 

My antenna is going to be on a stand alone mast 100+ feet away from the house all by itself out in the field nowhere near the homes main ground. The electric panel and main ground for the house couldn't be any further away than they are, completely on the opposite end of the property's. Im talking polar opposites! I am also now reading that 8' ground rods are needed? 


So keep in mind this antenna is on a stand alone mast and not powered. The little booster add on is powered but from the coaxial cable that carries a charge from inside the house where an ac adapter is plugged in that the coaxial cable runs through.

I had it all planned out for a clean neat install of an antenna that besides the coaxial just had 2 U clamps . Now this simple tv antenna is turning into a whole big thing.

Can someone tell me that its ok to ground the mast (pictured) and coax to its own grounding rod and not have to buy a country mile of copper wire and dig for a week to tie it in to the main ground of the home. I have to make sure this is safe and will work. 

I know to an electrician this stuff sounds simple but again I am no electrician and I will appreciate whatever advice you can give me. 

Also I would like to place the full blame for this project getting started on Eva Gabor. With only 4 channels I got hooked on Green Acres and devoloped a little crush on Miss Gabor. Now they switched networks and the new transmitter with green acres is a little further out. If you ever saw Miss Gabor you can understand my urgency. 

Thanks to anyone who helps bring Eve Gabor back into my life


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## DrDon

Merged


----------



## MeatChicken

Joev1983 said:


> Can someone tell me that its ok to ground the mast (pictured) and coax to its own grounding rod and not have to buy a country mile of copper wire and dig for a week to tie it in to the main ground of the home. I have to make sure this is safe and will work.
> 
> I know to an electrician this stuff sounds simple but again I am no electrician and I will appreciate whatever advice you can give me.


 I'm sure others will chime in with additional info, but as I understand it, 8ft Ground rods are UL listed, while 4ft are not, although both are sold as ground rods and "can" be used ... If sticking with 4ft, you may want to put 2 or 3 in and bond them to each other ....
As far as the electrical ground being 58 thousand yards from the TV mast, there are many TV AC outlet "surge supressors/EMI filters" that also have an "F" coax in/out on them, that grounds your lead in coax to the outlet's/electrical system ground ... I'd probably do that, & combined with your separate grounding at the mast site of both the lead in coax and mast, you would be good to go ...
It's not 100% by the book, but by no means inadequate ...


----------



## HDdoggy

I have a question on grounding an attic antenna. I realize it's a debated topic, but having experienced induced voltage from a nearby lightning strike I'm choosing to err on the side of caution.

If my attic antenna is mounted on a pvc post and sitting on a plastic stand, it doesn't really have a mast per se, would it be sufficient to run the coax down through the wall to my basement, attach it to a grounding block there, attach that to the main electric panel ground, and then (obviously) send the other side of the coax back up the wall to my TV? If so, how long can the grounding wire be? Would it be better to run the coax 25ft across my basement and mount the grounding block right next the panel, or can the grounding wire travel that far? The former would cause more signal loss, but I imagine that might be the safest way.

Any input?

edit: As an easier alternative, would something like this item, plugged in near the TV right before the coax enters it be sufficient for an attic antenna coax line? https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5350-PC-Low-Voltage-Protective-Non-Stackable/dp/B003AU3D06


----------



## fxcamera1

acesat said:


> Just run 10 gauge solid copper from the antenna mast to the ground block and call it done.



Hi. I'm new here and I know this thread is more than a few yeas old. The instructions told me not to start a new thread and to find one covering my topic.


I noticed this comment and I hope I can ground my antenna the way you mentioned here.


My situation is very complicated. I'm in the city in a tall narrow 3 story brownstone. So Instead of running 2 ground wires (shield and mast) that need to be separate from each other, I was hoping to run a single ground starting from the mast then going through the ground screw on the block(splitter) then continuing down to where my electrical system is grounded on the main water pipe coming out from underground. because appearance is of importance since these houses are attached.


My other question is; I have 2 splitters, 1 splitter is at the mast feeding a cable going all the way down to a window on the main floor and another cable going to a second splitter near the roof gutter which feeds 2 cables going to 2 different windows on the top floor. So, should I ground from the bottom splitteer since it's closer to the entryways, or the one near the mast since I feel it will ground all 3 TV connections?
Thanks


----------



## Jim McC

Is it ok to put 2 grounding clamps on the same copper grounding rod ? I put one for the antenna, and one for the coaxial cable. 

Thanks.


----------



## nathill

Jim McC said:


> Is it ok to put 2 grounding clamps on the same copper grounding rod ? I put one for the antenna, and one for the coaxial cable.
> 
> Thanks.



Doesn't post 128 above show that as being acceptable?


----------



## Jim McC

nathill said:


> Doesn't post 128 above show that as being acceptable?


Oops ! Thanks.


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## fxcamera1

Is it ok to run the mast ground wire to the ground screw on the block/splitter that's already grounded to the electrical system/main water pipe in the basement?
(I'm on the top floor apt. in a very tall narrow attached brownstone house in the city, and the owner doesn't want any more or my antenna wires running down in front of the house.)
Thanks.


----------



## rabbit73

fxcamera1 said:


> Is it ok to run the mast ground wire to the ground screw on the block/splitter that's already grounded to the electrical system/main water pipe in the basement?
> (I'm on the top floor apt. in a very tall narrow attached brownstone house in the city, and the owner doesn't want any more or my antenna wires running down in front of the house.)
> Thanks.


 It's not according to code, but it is the way some dish installers do it. 

There is an alternate method used by dish installers, called the "piggy-back" method, but it doesn't meet code. It uses coax that has an attached 17 gauge copper clad steel messenger wire. That coax runs from the antenna to the grounding block, with the grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire. The steel wire runs from the mast to the grounding block.

http://www.dbsinstall.com/diy/Grounding-2.asp

Todd Humphrey doesn't speak for the NFPA that publishes the NEC code, but he has some ideas that are helpful. The local electrical inspector (AHJ, authority having jurisdiction) has the final say if you are willing to get him involved. Some inspectors are more friendly than others; a local electrician could tell you.


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## pvdigital

I've noticed lightning affects my picture ever since I've grounded my antenna. It doesn't matter if there is a storm at my house, just a storm somewhere around and between the transmission towers and my house. I've run all new cable. 

Is this normal? 

To be clear, my picture has breakups during storms on normally strong channel reception.


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## Calaveras

pvdigital said:


> I've noticed lightning affects my picture ever since I've grounded my antenna. It doesn't matter if there is a storm at my house, just a storm somewhere around and between the transmission towers and my house. I've run all new cable.
> 
> Is this normal?
> 
> To be clear, my picture has breakups during storms on normally strong channel reception.



I can't see how grounding your antenna should have anything to do with this at all. Without seeing your Rabbitears report we have no idea how strong your stations actually are. Having said all that, it's common for lightning to cause dropouts as the RF generated by lightning can easily be stronger than your stations. The lower the frequency the worse the problem. High VHF is worse than UHF and low VHF is worst than high VHF.

None of my stations are very strong and my one high VHF station is easily disrupted by lightning up to 100 miles away if it's in the same direction as the station. UHF is not quite so sensitive.


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## pvdigital

Calaveras said:


> I can't see how grounding your antenna should have anything to do with this at all. Without seeing your Rabbitears report we have no idea how strong your stations actually are. Having said all that, it's common for lightning to cause dropouts as the RF generated by lightning can easily be stronger than your stations. The lower the frequency the worse the problem. High VHF is worse than UHF and low VHF is worst than high VHF.
> 
> None of my stations are very strong and my one high VHF station is easily disrupted by lightning up to 100 miles away if it's in the same direction as the station. UHF is not quite so sensitive.


Thanks for the response, Cal. Here's my report and current set up:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=116958

My "run" goes like this: Danny Hodges "Ultimate" Antenna, 6 ft cable run to Antenna's Direct UHF/VHF combiner; Stellar Labs VHF 2476 6 ft run to the same combiner; 3 ft cable run from combiner to kitz500preamp.

15 ft run from kitz preamp to grounding block; 20 ft run from grounding block into kitz power adapter.

Despite the scary-looking report, I pick up WBRE and WYOU (11 and 12) fairly strongly off of the Stellar Labs. My Tivo signal strength is typically 67-72. 

With the Ultimate Antenna, I pick up WNEP/WVIA RF 21 and WOLF RF 22 from Scranton off the back. Signal strength is 42-55 depending on the atmosphere. These are the two I see some picture breakups introduced.

My Altoona-Johnstown stations to the southwest I pick up fine with signal strength of 47 for WPSU RF15 and 60-67 for WJAC RF 26, WATM RF 31 and WTAJ RF 24. However I still some picture breakups on RF 26 during storms.


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## Calaveras

pvdigital said:


> 15 ft run from kitz preamp to grounding block; 20 ft run from grounding block into kitz power adapter.
> 
> Despite the scary-looking report, I pick up WBRE and WYOU (11 and 12) fairly strongly off of the Stellar Labs. My Tivo signal strength is typically 67-72.



Do you know for sure that your "Signal Strength" meter is actually a Signal Strength meter? If you have just one meter and it's on your TV then it's most likely a Signal Quality (SNR) meter. This tells you little about the actual signal strength. 

With your report it's no surprise you get dropouts during thunderstorms. I'd say that's completely normal. UHF is not immune from lightning interference.

FYI, the KT-500 has far more gain than you need for your short coax run. More gain does not equal more stations. Since all your stations are weak, you're getting away with it. The KT-500 would be good for weak stations and a 200-300 foot run of RG-6. The KT-501 set to max gain would be a good match for your setup. Don't set the KT-500 gain to minimum because the noise figure gets bad.


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## pvdigital

Calaveras said:


> Do you know for sure that your "Signal Strength" meter is actually a Signal Strength meter? If you have just one meter and it's on your TV then it's most likely a Signal Quality (SNR) meter. This tells you little about the actual signal strength.
> 
> With your report it's no surprise you get dropouts during thunderstorms. I'd say that's completely normal. UHF is not immune from lightning interference.
> 
> FYI, the KT-500 has far more gain than you need for your short coax run. More gain does not equal more stations. Since all your stations are weak, you're getting away with it. The KT-500 would be good for weak stations and a 200-300 foot run of RG-6. The KT-501 set to max gain would be a good match for your setup. Don't set the KT-500 gain to minimum because the noise figure gets bad.


I appreciate your help with this, Calaveras. I previously had a cm7777 (old style) so I wanted something almost as powerful. I have used the variable gain setting of the kt-500 to find the best option and I'd guesstimate I have it set about 20-22 db.

I guess I won't worry about trying to change anything then if the issues are normal during thunderstorms.


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## 9516518

I'm about to install an antenna, but I have a question about grounding. Currently, my cable TV line is grounded to a copper water pipe in the basement. From what I understand, that used to be acceptable, but now it's not according to the NEC.

The antenna is going to be on the opposite side of the house, near the electrical service meter and house ground. I plan on grounding the mast there, since it's close-by. However, my question is about the antenna line. Would I be able to ground the antenna coaxial line using the basement ground, or should I ground it to the house ground since the mast will be grounded there? In either case, would I be able to ground both the antenna line and cable line to the same copper wire, or should they be on separate lines?

Thank you for any advice and help received, and if you need me to elaborate further just ask!


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## MBrown2020

Deleted


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## MBrown2020

Can the 10 gauge ground wire for the mast ground run along side the coaxial RG6 cable as they are both going toward the same place on the house? (Grounding rod). The coax enters the house just above the ground rod location. Do they have to be separated from each other? Can they both be in the same mounting clamps along the run? Thanks


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## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> Can the 10 gauge ground wire for the mast ground run along side the coaxial RG6 cable as they are both going toward the same place on the house? (Grounding rod). The coax enters the house just above the ground rod location. Do they have to be separated from each other? Can they both be in the same mounting clamps along the run? Thanks












I'm not a code expert, but I think that would be OK as long as the metal of the 10 gauge wire from the mast doesn't make contact with the coax shield at any point. The intent of the code is that they are to be electrically isolated from each other until they reach the house electrical system ground.

As always, the NEC is only a suggestion. The local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction), who is usually the electrical inspector, has the final say. His interpretation of the code becomes the local law that is binding on you and the local electricians.


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## onwisconsin

What would be the most practical and cost effective way to ground an antenna/ mast that is about 50 feet away from the house in the backyard?


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## rabbit73

onwisconsin said:


> What would be the most practical and cost effective way to ground an antenna/ mast that is about 50 feet away from the house in the backyard?


A tower or mast away from the house should have its own ground, but the NEC says that a separate ground rod must be bonded to the house ground with 6 gauge copper wire (expensive).

You will have to treat your system the way hams do their towers.

This document might help:
Antenna System Bonding and Grounding Requirements in the USA
by Whitham D. Reeve
http://www.reeve.com/Documents/Articles Papers/Reeve_AntennaSystemGroundingRequirements.pdf


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## ughAudio

Joining coaxial feeds from two antennas thru exterior combiner. Bonding to electric ground (coax-ground.png)

Same as using commonly purchased (coax-ground1.png)?

Thank you in advance!

- ughAudio


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## rabbit73

ughAudio said:


> Joining coaxial feeds from two antennas thru exterior combiner. Bonding to electric ground (coax-ground.png)
> 
> Same as using commonly purchased (coax-ground1.png)?
> 
> Thank you in advance!
> 
> - ughAudio


Welcome to the forum.

Yes, that is equivalent, but you will also need a separate 10 gauge copper conductor for the mast.


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## ughAudio

rabbit73 said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> Yes, that is equivalent, but you will also need a separate 10 gauge copper conductor for the mast.


THANK YOU for your rapid answer, rabbit73. As well for the additional alert regarding the mast, and I've learned a lot from the forum - AND you! - over the last year or so: got #8 ready to go already!


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## ughAudio

> Thanks to Rabbit73


Ground clamp on the stake bonding the mast thru 8 gauge tonight.

I was thinking about a split-bolt but then it would've required splitting the old sheathing on that main house ground.









Thank you.


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## TurboTronix

I'm trying to figure out if I need a ground rod or not for my setup. I am planning on installing a 10' mast with a wifi antenna connected on my roof to my chimney. If my electric panel is grounded to my copper water line, do I still need a ground rod? As per NEC, if I do use a ground rod I'll need to bond it to my electrical panel which becomes complex since I'll have to open it up to connect the 6AWG to the panels ground.


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## rabbit73

TurboTronix said:


> I'm trying to figure out if I need a ground rod or not for my setup. I am planning on installing a 10' mast with a wifi antenna connected on my roof to my chimney. If my electric panel is grounded to my copper water line, do I still need a ground rod? As per NEC, if I do use a ground rod I'll need to bond it to my electrical panel which becomes complex since I'll have to open it up to connect the 6AWG to the panels ground.


If the house electrical system uses the copper water line for the house electrical system ground, I see no reason why your antenna system can't use the same ground. However, you will need two 10 gauge wires from your antenna system to the house ground, one for the mast and one for the coax shield from a grounding block (AKA as an ADU).

As always, the NEC is only a suggestion. Your local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction), who is usually the electrical inspector, has the final say. His interpretation of the code becomes the local law that is binding on you and the local electricians.


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## TurboTronix

rabbit73 said:


> If the house electrical system uses the copper water line for the house electrical system ground, I see no reason why your antenna system can't use the same ground. However, you will need two 10 gauge wires from your antenna system to the house ground, one for the mast and one for the coax shield from a grounding block (AKA as an ADU).
> 
> As always, the NEC is only a suggestion. Your local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction), who is usually the electrical inspector, has the final say. His interpretation of the code becomes the local law that is binding on you and the local electricians.


Why can't i just use one 10awg wire for both the antenna and mast? I was planning on wiring a 10awg to the lightning arrestor -> ground clamp on antenna mast -> ground strap on electric panel mast


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## rabbit73

TurboTronix said:


> Why can't i just use one 10awg wire for both the antenna and mast? I was planning on wiring a 10awg to the lightning arrestor -> ground clamp on antenna mast -> ground strap on electric panel mast


You CAN do that if you want to, but it doesn't conform to the NEC code. I have no knowledge of the Canadian code.

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge which will tend to discourage a strike, but the system will not survive a direct strike.










There are two separate grounding conductors to satisfy two separate requirements. The grounding conductor for the mast is to drain any buildup of static charge to reduce the chance of a strike. The grounding conductor for the coax shield is to protect you from electrical shock.

The coax is usually connected to AC operated equipment. All AC operated equipment has leakage current, even when operating properly. If there is a malfunction in the AC operated equipment, there might be AC voltage on the coax shield which could shock you.

I have had 3 close calls with electrical shock, so I bought a Leakage Current tester to check my equipment.










When I had a lot of equipment connected together for testing, I received a mild shock. The leakage currents from all the pieces of equipment were added together. When I grounded the equipment coax shields, I no longer felt a shock because the leakage current was diverted to ground instead of going through my body.










Example:
Leakage current posts on DHC
Getting A/C voltage on converter box's antenna input !
ATSC Converter Boxes (Non-HD, Non-Recording)

Equipment Leakage Current
ATSC Converter Boxes (Non-HD, Non-Recording)


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## ughAudio

*question about running ground wire over roof shingles?*

thinking about maybe moving antenna to chimney mount, so the ground wire will be running over a flat roof for bout 15 ft, before attaching directly straihgt to bonded service conduit.

are standoffs like pictured required (still have a few of these from old twinlead from the 60's around) or can it be secured to shingles with just some screwin coaxial clips?

thank you in advance,
- ughaudio


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## rabbit73

ughAudio said:


> *question about running ground wire over roof shingles?*
> 
> are standoffs like pictured required (still have a few of these from old twinlead from the 60's around) or can it be secured to shingles with just some screwin coaxial clips?


I see your question, but I don't have a good answer at this time. I would be worried about making holes in the roof because of possible leaks. I seem to remember a device that you can slip under a shingle and fasten so that the shingle above it covers the fastener just as it covers the roofing nails that hold the shingles. Maybe fastening the 10 gauge wire at the chimney and at the edge of the roof would be sufficient.


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## ughAudio

rabbit73 said:


> I see your question, but I don't have a good answer at this time. I would be worried about making holes in the roof because of possible leaks. I seem to remember a device that you can slip under a shingle and fasten so that the shingle above it covers the fastener just as it covers the roofing nails that hold the shingles. Maybe fastening the 10 gauge wire at the chimney and at the edge of the roof would be sufficient.


Thank you for this quick reply, rabbit73!

Not worried about water and appreciative of your LEAK observation: drilled holes several years ago with lag bolts and with a heavy dose of henrys wet patch through the holes and under the shingles on some other project and still looking good in the attic.

Nonetheless, if I remount I will follow your advice (chimney AND roof edge)!


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## gshergold

Question regarding antenna grounding - I have a two level house, I am planning to mount a small mast and antenna on my chimney which will be on the 2nd level center of the house. I understand that the both the mast and the antenna need to be grounded, and from what I see, via separate lines. 

I have my electrical service come in on the east side of the house, through a raised metal conduit from the roof. My question is, can I ground directly to that metal conduit via a pair of grounding straps/clamps? This way, I don't have wires skirting down the side of the house to the grounding rods (keeps the wife happy, as she _HATES_ seeing wires on the outside of the house.) My basic electricity knowledge would say this would be acceptable as the metal conduit runs to the meter and down to the grounding rods, but I want to make sure I am not missing anything.















Thoughts?


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## rabbit73

gshergold said:


> I have my electrical service come in on the east side of the house, through a raised metal conduit from the roof. My question is, can I ground directly to that metal conduit via a pair of grounding straps/clamps?


Hello, gshergold; welcome to the forum.

Thank you for the photos.

My opinion is that your proposed method should be OK, because cable guys often use a clamp on the meter base housing for grounding the coax. But, I'm concerned with the section of conduit that is just above the meter. It looks like there might be a discontinuity in the conduit.










As always, the code is only a suggestion. The local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction), who is usually the electrical inspector, has the final say. His interpretation of the code becomes the local law that is binding on you and the local electricians. If in doubt, check with a local electrician; some inspectors are more friendly than others.


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## gshergold

rabbit73 said:


> Hello, gshergold; welcome to the forum.
> 
> Thank you for the photos.
> 
> My opinion is that your proposed method should be OK, because cable guys often use a clamp on the meter base housing for grounding the coax. But, I'm concerned with the section of conduit that is just above the meter. It looks like there might be a discontinuity in the conduit.
> 
> View attachment 3190479
> 
> 
> As always, the code is only a suggestion. The local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction), who is usually the electrical inspector, has the final say. His interpretation of the code becomes the local law that is binding on you and the local electricians. If in doubt, check with a local electrician; some inspectors are more friendly than others.


From what I read in the village electrical code, since im not commercial, and well under their height requirement, no local ordnances apply.. I can check the continunity between the two, and if it doesnt exist there, I can easily put a grounding strap between the two.

When I do make that hookup, I had plans to ensure continunity to the ground stakes does exist.

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

Cheers,
Greg


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## midkiffm

When grounding an outdoor antenna:

1) NEC recommends a minimum 10 AWG copper wire when grounding the antenna mast and coax cable. Is there an argument for using a larger wire (8 AWG or 6 AWG) or is it just a waste of money? Does the wire need to be upsized if run over a certain length?

2) When bonding the ground wire to the mast will drilling/tapping the mast provide a more reliable connection than a grounding strap?

3) What is the reasoning for grounding the coax, as near as possible, at the location it enters the building? Any reason I can‘t locate the grounding block inside the building near the electrical service panel? The coax has to be run there anyway to connect to the splitter and it would allow for a very short ground wire.

4) Is there any benefit to using a coax surge protector (similar to below) in place of the grounding block?


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## midkiffm

Bump


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## richart

midkiffm said:


> When grounding an outdoor antenna:
> 
> 1) NEC recommends a minimum 10 AWG copper wire when grounding the antenna mast and coax cable. Is there an argument for using a larger wire (8 AWG or 6 AWG) or is it just a waste of money? Does the wire need to be upsized if run over a certain length?
> 
> *I don't see any need to go with bigger conductors than the code requires for a standard home installation.
> 
> How far away from your main grounding electrode are you located???*
> 
> 2) When bonding the ground wire to the mast will drilling/tapping the mast provide a more reliable connection than a grounding strap?
> 
> *I usually use standard pipe clamp type grounding clamps...they provide a secure connection to the grounding conductor and a large amount of surface area connecting to the mast. Most masts are thin walled and would not provide a lot of thread to secure a bolt to connect the ground wire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 3) What is the reasoning for grounding the coax, as near as possible, at the location it enters the building? Any reason I can‘t locate the grounding block inside the building near the electrical service panel? The coax has to be run there anyway to connect to the splitter and it would allow for a very short ground wire.
> 
> *I prefer to shunt any discharges straight to ground outside your house...placing it inside would be sort of like inviting lightning into your home. Why provide a direct path into your house?*
> 
> 4) Is there any benefit to using a coax surge protector (similar to below) in place of the grounding block?
> 
> *A Coax Surge Protector is also a grounding block and provides better protection than just a standard grounding block. A standard grounding block just grounds the shield of the coax cable, not the inner conductor. A coax surge protector has a component that will shunt any voltages on the center conductor to ground if they exceed the design voltage of the surge protector (225 volts for the one you picture). If you live in a lightning prone area, I would recommend one. They will eventually fail and have to be replaced since the surge protection component can only absorb a few hundred "hits". I use them on all TV and ham radio connections since we have a lot of lightning in Georgia. Be sure to connect the grounding conductor!*
> 
> View attachment 3249713


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## iavswn

matonanjin said:


> Really stupid question I realize. But exposing my ignorance, newbiness here. All of this talk of grounding, is this for lightning protection?


Its protection from lightning but it also improves signal quality & reception by eliminating static buildup causing noise on the received signal.


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## iavswn

midkiffm said:


> When grounding an outdoor antenna:
> 
> 1) NEC recommends a minimum 10 AWG copper wire when grounding the antenna mast and coax cable. Is there an argument for using a larger wire (8 AWG or 6 AWG) or is it just a waste of money? Does the wire need to be upsized if run over a certain length?


The 6Awg and 8Awg is if you are using aluminum.


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## man00

I made one like the above but used pvc board and placed it outside how to ground this thing to help prevent damage to TV?
thanks


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## cosmictheater

Here is some quick info.. Always check with the NEC code in your area for proper installation..
TV Ant Grounding


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## man00

Think I found what I may need, this is a grounding block?


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## ughAudio

man00 said:


> Think I found what I may need, this is a grounding block?


Yep. I used #8 copper for bonding.


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## sullim4

Alright, I guess it is time to ask my grounding question .

I mounted an antenna on the opposite side of the house from the electrical service entrance and main ground rod, where I get the best reception. The run from the antenna mast would be in excess of 100 feet going down the side of the house and around the foundation.

To ground the system, it looks like I have a couple options.

- My preferred option is to ground to the copper water pipe in my garage. This is at the water service entrance and it'd be to the 1" copper pipe that literally comes out of the slab-on-grade. The run would be about 35 feet from the water pipe to the coax's entrance to the home, and another 25 feet (60 feet total) to the mast. My plan here would be to run a wire from the mast to the ground block, and then another wire from the ground block directly to the pipe in the garage. I know I am supposed to run independent wires for both the mast and the coax to ground... but this seems excessive to me honestly. I'd ideally like to be able to run 6 gauge between the pipe and the ground block, and 10 gauge from the mast to the ground block, but I don't know if this would be adequate.

- The by-the-book option seems to be driving a ground rod in on this side of the house and bonding it to the house's ground rod with 6 gauge wire. This run would be about 75 feet between the rods along the foundation, and the ground in this area is extremely rocky which doesn't make me thrilled with the prospect of driving an 8 foot rod into the ground whose primary job would be discharging static build-up on the mast.

- There is a third option - I have a metal junction box and conduit right below the coax service entrance. I could ground the coax or mast to this - but this does not seem kosher to me as it would feed directly into my home in the event of a lightning strike. Although perhaps my home is toast in this event regardless, I don't know. We don't get a whole lot of lightning in Western Washington.

I am leaning towards option 1 as it seems like the most practical trade off between safety and practicality, but I'd be curious to get another take to understand if I'm just being lazy or not thinking this through.

Thanks!


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## sullim4

Well, I actually went with option 2 above - I was able to drive an 8' ground rod into the ground with about an hour's worth of effort.

Now I just need to bond the new ground rod to the house's existing rod and actually ground the mast and coax block. Should I add an intersystem bonding bridge to connect the mast and block to the rod (possibly using the 6 gauge bonding wire running between the two rods), or should I just directly connect each to the rod using 10 gauge?


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## ughAudio

sullim4 said:


> Well, I actually went with option 2 above - I was able to drive an 8' ground rod into the ground with about an hour's worth of effort.


Last year found the optimal spot for the antenna (like you,_ "the opposite side of the house from the electrical service entrance and main ground rod, where I get the best reception_"). Figured 4ft rod bonded every 25ft with #6copper/4ftrod would do the trick.... gave up after an 1-1/2 hours as still had 1ft to go with the first 4footer. Commending you on that 8ft effort. Now I just deal with pixelizing from the current spot :-(


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