# Onkyo speakers have no clarity



## JohnR_IN_LA

You guys are kind of clueless.

Those HTS600, HTS-760, HTS-770 speakers are far inferior to your average pair of cheap bookshelf speakers.


Grab a pair of 125 dollar JBLs, Athenas, Infinitys, etc, and compare them side by side with your beloved Onkyos.


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## bojangling

But its the "Home Theatre in a Box" forum......


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## DaveInBerlinNJ

Yeah, the heck with JBLs, we should all run out and get Martin Logans for our HTiBs.


And we're clueless?


BWAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*You guys are kind of clueless.

Those HTS600, HTS-760, HTS-770 speakers are far inferior to your average pair of cheap bookshelf speakers.


Grab a pair of 125 dollar JBLs, Athenas, Infinitys, etc, and compare them side by side with your beloved Onkyos.*
 


It won't do any good John - You are talking to people who could not spend more than $400 - $500 for 6 or 7 speakers AND a receiver. For that price, Onkyo is hard to beat.


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Im talking about 100 dollar/pair bookshelf speakers.

My 27 inch Sharp TV has better sound than those Onkyos.


My 50 inch TV is roughly on par with the Onkyos ( it sounds like crap too, haha).


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## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Im talking about 100 dollar/pair bookshelf speakers.

My 27 inch Sharp TV has better sound than those Onkyos.


My 50 inch TV is roughly on par with the Onkyos ( it sounds like crap too, haha).*
I totally agree. Except for their HTIB as a LAST RESORT for people that are just not willing to spend the time or money to put something decent together, I would NEVER, in a million years recommend ANY Onkyo speaker for any application whatsoever.


Actually, the same thing holds true for most receiver manufacturers. I would not recommend Yahama, Sony, etc. speakers. Get speakers from SPEAKER manufacturers; that's what they do best.


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by Artisn_
* 


It won't do any good John - You are talking to people who could not spend more than $400 - $500 for 6 or 7 speakers AND a receiver. For that price, Onkyo is hard to beat.*
Im saying they are worse than nothing.


The Onkyo Subwoofer that comes with them is "fine", theres several $150 dollar subs that will beat it, but...


The Onkyo Receiver is also fine, until you compare its power with a real receiver.


Some examples from first hand experience:

a) I bought a 300 dollar used Yamaha RXV-995 reciever that made my speakers sound 10x better.


b) My 130 dollar pair Infinity bookshelf speakers were 10x better sounding than the Onkyos.


c) I bought a cheapo Sony SA-WM40 subwoofer which sounded at least 3 times better than the Onkyo sub.


---------------


So for about the same cash, you can get a far better sounding 2 channel system. The problem with the Onkyos, is they speakers are incredibly poorly designed, they are in essence, white-van speakers ( designed to look good, with no regard to the sound).


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by Artisn_
*Get speakers from SPEAKER manufacturers; that's what they do best. *
Here here...


Get an HTIB from JBL, Infinity, Athena, Klipsch, just about any speaker company...


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## Artisn

John, exactly! I couldn't agree with you more. The problem is, there are a few people who just want to go out and get the laziest and cheapest thing they can lay their hands on with total disregard for any acoustical value. I have tried and tried and tried.... to get some people to take just a little more time and consider used, refirbs, starting with 2 channel, etc. and ending up with a really great system over time. I'd say about 1/2 the people that come in here with a $500 budget have already made up their mind and nothing I or anyone else can say will make a difference.


We try though, and that's all we can do.


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Sometimes you have to make the mistake yourself. In my case, I made the mistake TWICE, hahah


I bought an Audio Source HTIB, man that thing was awful! i couldnt believe a speaker cound sound that bad.


Then the Onkyo HTS-600, which has the same speakers as these newer models. I kept the receiver and the sub for almost a year, but the 5 speakers were worse than nothing. When I tried using a couple of them as rears, they ruined the sound of my Infinitys.


Then i compared them to my two TVs, and the TVs bested them, lol.


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## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Sometimes you have to make the mistake yourself. In my case, I made the mistake TWICE, hahah


I bought an Audio Source HTIB, man that thing was awful! i couldnt believe a speaker cound sound that bad.


Then the Onkyo HTS-600, which has the same speakers as these newer models. I kept the receiver and the sub for almost a year, but the 5 speakers were worse than nothing. When I tried using a couple of them as rears, they ruined the sound of my Infinitys.


Then i compared them to my two TVs, and the TVs bested them, lol.*
I can beat that. I actually bought a BOSE system in the 90s!!! Before these forums were popular and technical information was widely available, I fell for their marketing machine. I thought it sounded great until I bought a "CHEAP" set of speakers for a different location and wondered: " WTF?" This little piece of garbage sounds way better than my 'sophisticated' BOSE!!! THEN, I did the research and found out the truth.


Most of what I learned, I have learned the hard way. At least up until finding out about great places like this where you can learn from other people's mistakes and experience. That's mostly what I try to do here, is share some of my "learned the hard way" experiences, and the facts I found out as a result of that. Most people that come here are fairly open minded and happy to learn. It makes it all worth while


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## John36

John and Artisn,


You guys are a match made in heaven.

Enough with the lovefest!


Apparently the editors at Cnet and other places are clueless as well.


I think you guys just wanted to jazz us 770 owners a little.


Anyways, I wish I could have spent more money on better equipment but alas

it was not to be.


I'm happy with what I got for the amount I spent.


I will not post again on this thread because it could go on forever.


Have a nice day,

John


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## JohnR_IN_LA

John36 , can you post a link to a CNET review thats is not "GOOD" or "VERY GOOD"?


Pick the crappiest piece of equipment imaginable, and the CNET review will be glowing.


CNET is a marketing vehicle. I just did a search, out of 25 HTIB reviews, they were all glowing, except there was one "FAIR" (for a product that isn't even available).


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## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*John36 , can you post a link to a CNET review thats is not "GOOD" or "VERY GOOD"?


Pick the crappiest piece of equipment imaginable, and the CNET review will be glowing.


CNET is a marketing vehicle. I just did a search, out of 25 HTIB reviews, they were all glowing, except there was one "FAIR" (for a product that isn't even available).*
They even gave BOSE a good review!!!
http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/00009022.gif 

http://reviews.cnet.com/4505-6449_7-...ml?legacy=cnet


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## JohnR_IN_LA

These are $69 bucks a pair on Pricegrabber. These Primus have ultra-rigid ceramic-coated drivers, awesome sound, for $210 bucks you could get 6 of these (use one for the Center Channel, and you have 1 spare.

http://www.infinitysystems.com/homea...d=PRIMUS150BKS 


Then just add one one of these powerful digitally amped Panasonic Recievers:

http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_g...%2520receivers 


Then add this sleeper Dayton sub:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=300-632 


And I guarantee you will have an incredible system that would blow away any 400-5000 dollar HTIB


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Ok the Primus are actually 69 bucks each, but Crutchfield and others have a special, where you can get a free pair.


Here is a nice 4 speaker infinity speaker setup + subwooferfor 386.00, I bet you can do better than this price from Circuit City, they tend to be cheaper than Crutchfield.





Infinity PS8 8" 100-watt Powered Subwoofer

Special: FREE Infinity bookshelf speakers with a $398+ Infinity home speaker purchase!

$224.99



Infinity Primus 150 Pair Bookshelf/Stand Mount Speakers

Special: FREE with a $398+ Infinity home speaker purchase!

$161.98


2 Infinity Primus 150 Each Bookshelf/Stand Mount Loudspeaker

Special: FREE Infinity bookshelf speakers with a $398+ Infinity home speaker purchase!


1 Crutchfield A/V Reference (5th revision)

FREE


Merchandise Subtotal $386.97

Standard Shipping

Other shipping options

FREE

No Interest, No payments for 6 months Financing details Order Total $386.97


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## Grae

Got any other reciever recommandations to go along with those speakers you're listing? As someone just getting started into HT, I'm finding this thread really helpful.


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## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by Grae_
*Got any other reciever recommandations to go along with those speakers you're listing? As someone just getting started into HT, I'm finding this thread really helpful.*
Look for used and refirbs if you are on a budget:

Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo. You can get a decent model of any of these in the $300 - $400 range used or refirb.


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Grae, here is an upgraded setup, with a receiver and a spectacular center channel speaker:


-------------------------

This system is comprised of:

Infinity Alpha 37C Center Channel ( this is the pride of this system)

4 Infinity Primus 150 Bookshelf speakers ( Great inexpensive speakers)

1 Dayton 10 inch sub ( people like this sub)

Panasonic XR-25 digitally amped receiver ( refurb)

Price $671.00

-------------------------


Heres how to put it together


First go to crutchfield.com and start a shopping cart wish list:


First get this excellent Center channel speaker ( remember 70% of movie sound comes out of the center)


1 Infinity Alpha 37C Black Center Channel Speaker

$249.99



2 Infinity Primus 150 Pair Bookshelf/Stand Mount Speakers

$161.98


2 Infinity Primus 150 Each Bookshelf/Stand Mount Loudspeaker

Special: FREE Infinity bookshelf speakers with a $398+ Infinity home speaker purchase!

FREE


1 Crutchfield A/V Reference (5th revision)

FREE


Crutchfield Merchandise Subtotal $411.97

Standard Shipping FREE

Order Total $411.97



Then just add one one of these powerful digitally amped Panasonic recievers. Youll have to do some pricegrabber searches, etc:

http://www.refurbdepot.com/productd...id=pricegrabber 


for around 160.00 ( I found this one on pricegrabber). You can get their new model, the XR-50 for only a little more, around $240



Then add this complete sleeper Dayton sub:

Part Number 300-632
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...tnumber=300-632 

for $99



And I guarantee you will have a VERY nice system, for .....

around $671 or so ...


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## SeattleDesi

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*

Then the Onkyo HTS-600, which has the same speakers as these newer models.

*
Dude, how about posting some "facts" when you do the comparison between your recommended speakers and the onkyo's?


Did you get a sound meter to confirm the Onkyo speakers suck?


Or you have a golden ear that is more in tune than all the 770 owners?


Did you even own a 770 to make a judgement?


I can't find the specs for the HTS-600 speakers you claim to have owned.. but assuming there's a difference in Onkyo's 600 v/s 700 line of HTIB's, then here's what www.onkyo.usa says..


the speakers ARE NOT THE SAME..


hts-670
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...&class=Systems 


Drivers


Front/Center/Surround/Subwoofer/Surround Back 4" Cone, x 2 1" Balanced-Dome/4" Cone x 2, 1" Balanced-Dome/4" Cone, 1" Balanced-Dome/8" Cone/-



Max. Power


Front/Center/Surround/Subwoofer/Surround Back 100 W/100 W/100 W/150 W/-



==============================================

hts-770
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...&class=Systems 



Drivers


Front/Center/Surround/Subwoofer/Surround Back Dual 5 1/4" Cone, 1" Balanced-Dome/Dual 4" Cone, 1" Balanced-Dome/4" Cone, 1" Balanced-Dome/10" Cone



Max. Power


Front/Center/Surround/Subwoofer/Surround Back 130 W/130 W/130 W/220 W/130 W


I realize specs don't make a good sounding speaker.. heck I've had people owning tiny computer Klipsh promedias quote that their speaker setup is awesome..


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## JohnR_IN_LA

It does looks they changed at least 2 of the speakers. I owned the HTS650.


It looks like they may have beefed up the Left and Right speakers, but not the Center. I doubt the quality has improved, because whomever designed the speakers I owned ( I read that they were a cheap Chinese manufacturer, not Onkyo ), were not at all concerned with audio quality, and the new speakers have similar components, many of them appear to be the same.


Are your Onkyo speakers muddy sounding? Is it hard to understand the diaogue? I felt like I was listening to a speaker that was designed by someone that never actually listened to them. Much like the infamous "White van" speakers that you see sold out of vans.


Also, look at the circuitry inside of one of your speakers. Does the crossover comprise of one capacitor? Thats a classic sign that they are "white van" speakers. If the crossover has several components, then thats more of an indication that its a "real" speaker.


I went back to Circuit City, and tried their floor model, and again, it had all the ingredients of a good speaker set: Bass, some treble, etc, but the design make it hard to discern the individual voices or instruments.


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## SeattleDesi

btw, even the receiver has been beefed up in the 770 compared to the 600 series.


i don't have the 770 yet.. it'll be shipped by thursday, and i'll let you *objectively* know what i think of its sound..


more importantly, i'll spend some time setting up the sound stage with proper speaker placement, and get some data from a sound meter using frequency rolloff tests..


regarding muddy sounding or whatever "white van" analogy you have, this is where YOU need to go out there and dig the facts, before you start speaker bashing to get your wannabe audiophile rating. Maybe your cabling, sound source, room configuration, or speaker placement sucked.. or maybe you just had a bad cold that day 


Did you say you went back to CC to check the internals to verify your "crossover" capacitor theory after you started this thread?


Where did you read this newsbit:
*( I read that they were a cheap Chinese manufacturer, not Onkyo ), were not at all concerned with audio quality, and the new speakers have similar components, many of them appear to be the same.*


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## svadas

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*( I read that they were a cheap Chinese manufacturer, not Onkyo*
I've been watching this thread all day as I am considering the Onkyo 770 as it is $350 out the door to my house refurbished.


Your argument that we shouldn't buy them because they might be made in china is the weakest one yet. If you go by that then you should blast everyone buying speakers from AV123...guess where they are made? I certainly hope you don't have Chinese manufactured speakers in your house. Bingo..China. Even some Vifa drivers (respected speaker component manufacturer) are made in that same country.


Your alternative of an entry level Infinity product does not overwhelm me in the least, especially when it is nearly twice the price. I've heard my share of Infinity (but honestly not these) and have never been impressed.


Believe it or not the decision to buy on Onkyo system is not simply one made out of laziness. It's basically comes down to the fact that a lot of us are looking for a second system to put in a basement (where the accoustics likely are bad to begin with) and for $350 we get it all. I have yet to see any review available on the net bash this system (oh except for the speaker wire it comes with). We also have a well respected manufacture of receiver so we could down the road start swapping out speakers. I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on my family room system and I am not in a position to do it all over again just to watch a few movies during the week in the basement.


Face it, at $350 this is a true deal and a huge improvement over 99% of what's out there. It's really not that bad. Show me something better in that price range and make me change my mind. Please, I'd love to get something better, but quite frankly I cannot see anything unless I start going over a grand. And the difference in the price will go a long way towards getting a good projector which is a better improvement than watching movies without a video source.


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## sabes35

The only thing I was a little dissappointed in on the Onkyo S770 was the center channel speaker . . . which I can replace when I get the chance, everything else sounds fine to me.


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## Artisn

You guys are not getting it...


Of course, what you have sounds "fine", you are used to listening to it.


What John did, was show you how to put together a system for about the same cost as a HTIB that will perform at least TEN TIMES BETTER.


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## john6six

Two things:


In the post before this one, Artisan says that John has put together a system that will sound ten times better for the same price. While I will not deny the quality may be substantially better, his price was was $671 plus standard shipping. The 770 can be gotten for $349 and free shipping. So it's not comparing apples to apples.


Second, this thread is discussing the quality of the systems speakers. I am not an audiophile and have used this forum as a reference in putting together my HT. This thread does not discuss the quality of the receiver. I have already purchased the 770. I am willing to shell out a few bucks, so if I were to purchase the speaker system described, would I see a huge difference or is the receiver a limiting factor?


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by sabes35_
*The only thing I was a little dissappointed in on the Onkyo S770 was the center channel speaker . . . which I can replace when I get the chance, everything else sounds fine to me.*
This is what I mean by clarity. I think you would find if you put *any* of the Onkyo's 5 speakers in the center spot, you would become annoyed at the lack of clarity of the movie Dialogue, etc.


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## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by john6six_
*Two things:


In the post before this one, Artisan says that John has put together a system that will sound ten times better for the same price. While I will not deny the quality may be substantially better, his price was was $671 plus standard shipping. The 770 can be gotten for $349 and free shipping. So it's not comparing apples to apples.


Second, this thread is discussing the quality of the systems speakers. I am not an audiophile and have used this forum as a reference in putting together my HT. This thread does not discuss the quality of the receiver. I have already purchased the 770. I am willing to shell out a few bucks, so if I were to purchase the speaker system described, would I see a huge difference or is the receiver a limiting factor?*
That Onkyo amp is not bad at all. YES, if you get better speakers you will notice a HUGE SUBSTANTIAL improvement over the HTIB speakers that came with it.


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by Artisn_
*That Onkyo amp is not bad at all. YES, if you get better speakers you will notice a HUGE SUBSTANTIAL improvement over the HTIB speakers that came with it.*
Exactly. Onkyo specializes in receivers, and the one they provide with these packages are feature-rich, nice units. They just have small transformers, so don't try to push inefficient speakers with them.


-------------------


Where Onkyo messed up, is on the speakers. They went with some 3rd party manufacturer, who just threw a design together from cheap components, without caring about the sound.


Artisn your being more kind about the speakers than I am, haha. Like I said, my TVs sounded as good or better with dialogue.


Now if you give a JBL engineer, or an Athena engineer those same components, they would make them sound better. They may also plead for some better components, and try to find some low cost components that sound better.


I do not think they even had a speaker design engineer involved in these. They probably just followed a basic speaker formula:


" Wire these two 50 cent woofers in parallel, and wire this 25 cent tweeter using this capacitor here, to keep it from blowing.".


Hah, I really dont know for sure, but thats how it appears to me.


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by john6six_
*Two things:


In the post before this one, Artisan says that John has put together a system that will sound ten times better for the same price. While I will not deny the quality may be substantially better, his price was was $671 plus standard shipping. The 770 can be gotten for $349 and free shipping. So it's not comparing apples to apples.


Second, this thread is discussing the quality of the systems speakers. I am not an audiophile and have used this forum as a reference in putting together my HT. This thread does not discuss the quality of the receiver. I have already purchased the 770. I am willing to shell out a few bucks, so if I were to purchase the speaker system described, would I see a huge difference or is the receiver a limiting factor?*
Yes and the Onkyo subwoofer isn't bad either. Get some bookshelf speakers to replace the 5 speakers, and bam! you will have high quality audio.



The Infinity Primus 150s are an excellent choice. When you shop for cheap bookshelf speakers, look for clarity, and *some* bass. Many of them have no bass.


I had some Boston Acoustics CR-65s, 130 a pair, that sounded excellent, but had zero bass. I replaced them with some Rocket RS-150s with tons of Bass ( but they are around 300 bucks).


So the trick is to find some bookshelves with some bass, within your budget. And of course, plenty of clarity ( Most brand-name bookshelf speakers excel at clarity).


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## upNdown

Quote:

_Originally posted by Artisn_
*You guys are not getting it...


Of course, what you have sounds "fine", you are used to listening to it.


What John did, was show you how to put together a system for about the same cost as a HTIB that will perform at least TEN TIMES BETTER.*
No, YOU don't get it. As the other poster mentioned, none of these solutions are anywhere near as cheap as the 'HTIB' package. Believe it or not, there are some people out here, who don't demand perfect audio. Some of us are just looking for better sound than what comes out of our TV speakers, but don't want to spend much money.


When I'm prioritizing my life, the clarity of my TV speakers isn't very high up on the charts. I bought an Onkyo HTIB to improve upon the dreadful speakers in my TV and to get a Surround effect. It is a cheap solution that should do the job nicely.


To each his own, right?


Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are those of us who do our research and still buy these HTIB's. We know what we're buying, and it is a cheap and easy solution that suits us. It isn't perfect, but if it works for us, why do you care? Everybody has different standards, so why poop on our parade?


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## SeattleDesi

yeah.. stop pooping and start gathering facts John.. you said you don't know anything about these speakers for sure, but you claim to know a lot about them from your "mistakes". I think people in AVSForum who post over 2000 useless posts need to given an audiophile aptitude test.


GIVE ME VERIFIABLE FACTS! Prove it to me that the speakers have ****** electronics, and that the receiver has weak transformers that cannot drive "high end" speakers. Prove it to me through objective measurements that your recommended Infinity setup is 10 times better in reproducing audio frequencies than the Onkyo's..


if you can't, please shut up. The last thing we need is someone regurgitating opinions gathered from other threads about how cool Athenas, Rockets, or whatever are..


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## JohnR_IN_LA

I'm not regurgitating anything, this is first hand experience bruddah 


Ive owned the Onkyos. You may notice the Onkyo subwoofer is still in one of the older pictures of my setup on the ********** forum:

http://forum.**********/photopost/sho...ium&thecat=500 


See it in the lower right hand corner? 


Ive owned the cheap Infinitys, they are still in my daughters room.

Ive owned the BAs... etc.


I am just giving my opinion, nobody is asking you to believe it. I could find some facts, but dont want to sink too much energy into something that is just getting me hated, hah.


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## SeattleDesi

no bruddah.. you didn't own the 770's, specifically the new speakers and the new receiver.. so even your first hand opinion is garbage.


No one's hating you.. but no one's respecting you either for blowing hot air and not digging up facts.


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## Grae

This is the setup I'm considering from deals that I've found online...


-Panasonic SAXR-50 reciever for around $220

-Athena Point-5 MKII speakers for around $190

-Dayton 10" sub for $100


Altogether that comes out to around $510. What I'm curious to know is how the Athenas would compare to the Infinity speakers including the center you mentioned. For about 150 bucks more than a refurb Onkyo 770 and about $25 for a new one listed online, this seems like it would make a much better alternative. I could also upgrade to that center channel for about 30 dollars more than the speaker combo you suggested if I wanted to in the future, but for now this seems like it would suit my budget better. Feedback?


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## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by Grae_
*This is the setup I'm considering from deals that I've found online...


-Panasonic SAXR-50 reciever for around $220

-Athena Point-5 MKII speakers for around $190

-Dayton 10" sub for $100


Altogether that comes out to around $510. What I'm curious to know is how the Athenas would compare to the Infinity speakers including the center you mentioned. For about 150 bucks more than a refurb Onkyo 770 and about $25 for a new one listed online, this seems like it would make a much better alternative. I could also upgrade to that center channel for about 30 dollars more than the speaker combo you suggested if I wanted to in the future, but for now this seems like it would suit my budget better. Feedback?*
The Athena Point-5 MKII uses the S-5 speakers which have 4" woffers. If you like Athena, I'd recommend moving up to at least the S-1 series which have 5 1/4" drivers. This will eliminate midrange localization problems and provide a much richer and fuller sound with substantially better imaging and a COMPLETE seamless soundstage.


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## JnC

This might be a bit too off topic, but...


Artisn, what is your opinion of Mirage speakers. Is there something to them or are they a gimmick?


Regards,

JnC


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by Artisn_
*The Athena Point-5 MKII uses the S-5 speakers which have 4" woffers. If you like Athena, I'd recommend moving up to at least the S-1 series which have 5 1/4" drivers. This will eliminate midrange localization problems and provide a much richer and fuller sound with substantially better imaging and a COMPLETE seamless soundstage.*
Agreed. Would be a nice setup one step up to the larger drivers.


The Infinity setup has nice center channel, if you can swing an upgraded Athena center channel, they should be comparable. Or just go with 5 S-1s, using one as the center.


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by SeattleDesi_

*no bruddah.. you didn't own the 770's, specifically the new speakers and the new receiver.. so even your first hand opinion is garbage./B]*
*
I listened to the 770s last night at Frys, while returning some computer merchandise. The 770s sounded less clear than Sony and Cambridge Soundworks HTs they had on the same demo switch in the sound room.


The build quality had improved slightly, but it was the same basic speaker design that I had owned, with the exception of some slightly larger front Left/Rights.


I think they say the sub is 220 watts now, instead of the 150 that I owned. The sub looks similar though, same baffle design. Regardless, their wattage ratings are very suspect, since the receiver I had was rated at 100/ch and only produced 32/ch.*


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## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by JnC_
*This might be a bit too off topic, but...


Artisn, what is your opinion of Mirage speakers. Is there something to them or are they a gimmick?


Regards,

JnC*
 http://img.shopping.com/cctool/PrdIm...a/20715946.JPG 

I haven't heard them, but their physical characteristics seem suited to proper imaging and a seamles soundfiled.


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## phatboykim

Personally, I enjoy reading these posts b/c as someone who is looking to dive into the world of HT, it's good to understand the issues/topics/variations in brands/opinions. Of course, JohnR_IN_LA can be a little nicer and not as condescending  but he does bring his opinions and experiences which I value, as well as others who own HTIB. It helps me to start to weigh what I really need vs costs, etc. End of the day, it's up to me as the consumer to sort through the slew of info/opinions and decide for myself b/c hey, none of you are buying it for me!! 


So keep it up!!


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Sorry i came across that way. I fully understand why someone would buy one of these Onkyo's HTIBs. I did myself. I just feel with all the rave reviews on this forum, someone should point out this issue with the 5 speakers that come in many Onkyo HTIBs.


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## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by phatboykim_
*Personally, I enjoy reading these posts b/c as someone who is looking to dive into the world of HT, it's good to understand the issues/topics/variations in brands/opinions. Of course, JohnR_IN_LA can be a little nicer and not as condescending  but he does bring his opinions and experiences which I value, as well as others who own HTIB. It helps me to start to weigh what I really need vs costs, etc. End of the day, it's up to me as the consumer to sort through the slew of info/opinions and decide for myself b/c hey, none of you are buying it for me!! 


So keep it up!!*
phatboykim - John was not "condescending". He lived through it, and tells it like it is. There were a few people that benifited from his suggestions on this thread and I have refered quite a few people here from other threads as well. Education at this entry-level point is crucial, and I for one think John's suggestions were excellent! It is better to learn BEFORE making the mistake than after. Learn from his experience and thank him. Don't attack him for trying to save people money, disappointment and time.


----------



## jermy4

I made the same mistake that John did. I bought the speakers from the 760 (HT510) and an Onkyo SR601 receiver. Lucky for me the receiver is much better than the one that comes with the HTIB and I'm still using it.


I had the Onkyo speakers for 2 months before I replaced them. I went with an all Athena setup with the Dayton subwoofer that has already been mentioned and the difference is amazing. My system sounds 50 times better now.


I'm with John & Artisn on this one. Those Onkyo speakers leave a lot to be desired. They are not very clear. I would also describe them as muddy. The Dayton sub is also leaps and bounds better than the Onkyo sub.


If you are interested in listening to any decent amount of music forget about the Onkyos. That is why I was so unhappy with my Onkyos. They sounded okay with movies but it was painful to listen to music for any length of time through them.


As always, this is my opinion and your mileage might vary.


----------



## SeattleDesi

artisn and john (and now Jermy) are definitely a match made in heaven.. you would think they are the same person posting 


anyhoo, you guys persist in missing the point.. an opinion is useful if validated by fact.. all this nonsense about "my sound is better than yours by 10 to 50 times" does not help anyone..


Buying an older system, or listening to some crap setup at Frys does not qualify you to make an educated opinion that is "pooped" on us "entry-level" look-mommy-i-own-a-htib crowd.


One reason for muddy sound is badly cabled speakers.. considering the fact that I haven't yet heard one decent technical reason to explain your dissatisfaction with the Onkyo's, I won't be surprised if you could have put them out of phase by your incompetence.


----------



## jermy4

You guys are not listening! I did not insult any of you or your systems. I simply stated my opinions.


If you are in the market for a new system go out and listen to speakers and receivers and maybe even some HTIB systems and decide for yourself what sounds best and is within your budget or even better yet buy some speakers and listen to them in your house side by side. I wish I would have done that before I bought my Onkyo speaker set.


That is all I am saying ... take it or leave it. It's nothing personal ...


By the way, my Onkyo speakers were all wired with home depot 14 guage wire and were all in phase. I also replaced the sub cable with an AR cable. Thick wire is not going to make that much of a difference unless you are doing long runs of wire.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Ive been professionally in analog electronics and computers for 15-20 years. I used to be a bench tech for RCA Service Company. I think I know how to wire a speaker


----------



## svadas

I still have yet to see anyone post an alternative to the 6.1 Onkyo set-up. The Onkyo is a 6.1 set-up, has a 220 watt 10 inch sub, has 5 1/4 inch MTM main speakers. Where are the better options?


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by svadas_
*I still have yet to see anyone post an alternative to the 6.1 Onkyo set-up. The Onkyo is a 6.1 set-up, has a 220 watt 10 inch sub, has 5 1/4 inch MTM main speakers. Where are the better options?*
 Onkyo Receiver (SR502) $159

Dayton Subwoofer $99

Athena Bookshelf Speakers $99 a pair


If you get the receiver/subwoofer/& 3 pairs of the Athenas you are looking at $559


This might be 10% higher than the Onkyo HTIB but the sound will be *MUCH* better!


If you are patient you could just get the receiver/sub/& 1 pair of the Athenas and possibly a matching center channel and buy some floorstanding F1s or F2 later and move the B1s to the surrounds. Then you would have a killer system.


To me personally, it's about finding the sweet point in price/performance. For a little bit more money you can get a lot nicer setup.


----------



## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by SeattleDesi_
*artisn and john (and now Jermy) are definitely a match made in heaven.. you would think they are the same person posting 


anyhoo, you guys persist in missing the point.. an opinion is useful if validated by fact.. all this nonsense about "my sound is better than yours by 10 to 50 times" does not help anyone..


Buying an older system, or listening to some crap setup at Frys does not qualify you to make an educated opinion that is "pooped" on us "entry-level" look-mommy-i-own-a-htib crowd.


One reason for muddy sound is badly cabled speakers.. considering the fact that I haven't yet heard one decent technical reason to explain your dissatisfaction with the Onkyo's, I won't be surprised if you could have put them out of phase by your incompetence.*
Actually, this is not all that subjective.


Studio 100s vs. Martin Logans are subjective


Marantz SR7400 vs. Denon AVR 3800 is subjective


Infinity Primus 150 vs. Onkyo HTIB speakers are NOT all that subjective, unless you are tone deaf. The sound clarity, imaging, build quality and accoustics are overwhelming, even to a noobie, such as yourself. You would be better off listening and learning as opposed to accusing someone with 20 years of experience of not being capable of connecting a speaker wire. We are all here to lean, and you would benifit far more from this forum if you approached it with that attitude.


----------



## DBryant

Guys,


I don't always agree with Artisn and have questioned his delivery many times but he, John, and Jeremy are right. There is nothing "wrong" with buying the Onkyo HTIB but for the same money you can put together a vastly better sounding system and feel really good about the $ you saved.


I have only been interested in this hobby for a little over a year but found rather quickly the HTIB have some of the biggest mark-ups when you consider the quality of the materials used.


Some of the speakers use 1/4 inch particle board, 20 guage wire without and binding posts, paper drivers (this is not always bad) with lighweight magnets.


Consider that the receiver that comes with the system is o.k but you can pick up a refurbed Onkyo 501 for under $150. Harman audio has HK bookshelf speakers with 6.5" woofers and a 3/4 titanium tweeter for $68 a pr. Normally a $300 pr of speakers. I own the Dayton sub from Parts Exress. While it can't knock pictures off the wall like the Shiva I have, it has a very clean sound.



Onkyo refurbed 501-$148

3 pair of HK speakers(model?)- $205

Dayton sub- $99 (on sale right now)


Even with shipping this would be under $550.


----------



## svadas

The Athena system listed seems to be a consideration. Although to have an actual center channel I'd have to add $170. I cannot find these mentioned HK speakers anywhere though, so I don't know about that option. The problem that I myself still have is that we've gone from a $350 system to a $600 system, and are still looking at the cheapest stuff. It's not hard to continue in that direction and spend a touch more for a good receiver and those Axiom ELT ($699 right now) and have a good set-up. Through in a pair of the $100 Athena's and I'd have a 7.1 good set-up. Although now I'm closer to $1100, when I started at $350. It's hard to decide where to draw the line, and that $350 mark is ever so tempting.


----------



## DBryant

The Athena can be bought for much less on-line. You could probably pick up an extra pr. of the bookshelves and use one as a center channel as well. I am not familiar with the Athena model numbers but I have seen the pr. with a 5/14 woofer for $105 on-line and the pr. with a 6.5" woofer for $130 a pr. Do a search with the corresponding model numbers and you will come up with several options.


The HK speakers were on the Harman Audio web site just a few days ago. I am not sure of the model number.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

You draw the line at the 5.1 with the ELTs.


No need to go to 7.1. Keep in mind, that the power of a low-end receiver is dependent on its power supply which your receiver only has one of.


So going to 7 channels will weaken the amount of power going to the original 5 channels.


I agree the Athena AS-B1 speakers ,at 99 bucks a pair at Best Buy, are worth taking a close look at, for sure.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*You draw the line at the 5.1 with the ELTs.


No need to go to 7.1. Keep in mind, that the power of a low-end receiver is dependent on its power supply which your receiver only has one of.


So going to 7 channels will weaken the amount of power going to the original 5 channels.


I agree the Athena AS-B1 speakers ,at 99 bucks a pair at Best Buy, are worth taking a close look at, for sure.*
.


The ELT system that AV123 has on sale for 699 is incredible though. Talk about authoritive bass, those ELT LRS really pump out lots of mid-bass.


http://www.**********/products_catego...akers&brand=13


----------



## svadas

Well, I guess my path is now chosen as I just picked up a pair of Athena F-1s and they are breaking in downstairs. Getting a pair every week or so won't blow the bank at once. Get the center next week, start to think about a receiver... Have to say they have decent bass, but they seem a bit bright right now, see how they break-in.


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by svadas_
*Well, I guess my path is now chosen as I just picked up a pair of Athena F-1s and they are breaking in downstairs. Getting a pair every week or so won't blow the bank at once. Get the center next week, start to think about a receiver... Have to say they have decent bass, but they seem a bit bright right now, see how they break-in.*
Good choice! I have the F2s for my mains. They sound pretty harsh for the first 50 hours. Then start smoothing out after that and after about 100 hours is when they really open up and start to sound amazing.


Enjoy! You will really start to appreciate these speakers after you use them for awhile. Mine sound really good with music which was important to me since I listen to as much music as I watch movies.


----------



## Golfer2000

silly elitists :mamoru:


John all of your suggestions are at least $300 more than what the 770 is going for. Perhaps you could consider the fact that not everyone is made of money or has eleventybillion dollars to spend on a audio system. Its a bit like a M3 owner insulting people that drive VW or audis as they're way inferior to the amazing BMW.


----------



## millerwill

I have had a pair of AR3a speakers since the 1960's; still great speakers, but for movies and tv, I find the 770 to be excellent.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by Golfer2000_
*silly elitists :mamoru:
*


Thats the first insult I've heard, silly Elitists?


Give me a price, ill give you a recommendation. 400 bucks?


----------



## Golfer2000

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Thats the first insult I've heard, silly Elitists?


Give me a price, ill give you a recommendation. 400 bucks?*
Its just that not everyone has enough cash to buy a enzo or a Ferrari. Does that make any car less than those crap? No, its just what you get for the money. If I had 8K to spend on a car I would have to learn to love the plastic like interiors or poor build quality. You make do with the money you have.


Yes Im looking to spend under a even $400 shipped for a setup. 2.1 would be fine as I could upgrade it with the rest of the speakers later on. Show me something for under $400 shipped and you can save me from the pathetic 770 that I was planning on ordering tomorrow. Also note that I dont have any equipment at this point, Im rocking out to the mono speaker on my X1, so any setup would be better than that.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Two Athena AS-B1 bookshelf speakers $99 at Best Buy

1 Dayton 10 inch sub from Parts Express $98 at Parts Express

then one of those Panasonic digitally amped receivers, XR-25 or XR-50 at around 200 bucks.


The thing is, those 2 mains would put out a nice clear soundstage, and... like you say, you can add the other 3 speakers later.


----------



## Golfer2000

And without a doubt in your mind I would be better off with a setup like this then I would with the 770?
Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Two Athena AS-B1 bookshelf speakers $99 at Best Buy

1 Dayton 10 inch sub from Parts Express $98 at Parts Express

then one of those Panasonic digitally amped receivers, XR-25 or XR-50 at around 200 bucks.


The thing is, those 2 mains would put out a nice clear soundstage, and... like you say, you can add the other 3 speakers later.*


----------



## Golfer2000

Also I just checked out Bestbuy.com and they are listed at $150 for the pair 
Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Two Athena AS-B1 bookshelf speakers $99 at Best Buy

1 Dayton 10 inch sub from Parts Express $98 at Parts Express

then one of those Panasonic digitally amped receivers, XR-25 or XR-50 at around 200 bucks.


The thing is, those 2 mains would put out a nice clear soundstage, and... like you say, you can add the other 3 speakers later.*


----------



## Golfer2000

also can you tell me the difference between the XR25 and the XR50?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Yes without a doubt, you would be better off 


The 99 dollar sale may have been last week. Theres talk on the Speaker forum on where to get them for at around 104 dollars, you may want to check there.


A quick search found them for 114 dollars.
http://www.abesofmaine.com/viewprodu...l=Pricegrabber 


The XR50 is the newer version, slightly more expensive, check out the Audio forum- Receivers amps, theres lots of talk about it. I think they improved the speaker wire clips, and a few other things.


----------------


Theres also these Triangular MB Quarts that are sold new on EBAY, I got a pair for 44 bucks plus 7 dollars shipping. Look at the pictures in my AVSForum Gallery.


Model info:

MB Quart QLA 46 2-Way Home Theater Speakers


They are exceedingly clear, but lack the bass of the Athenas. MB Quart is an excellent car audio speaker, and these are a great value. If you teamed these with a good sub, they would be a nice satellite system, very clear.


3 pairs of these, and using (one or two) of them as your center would give you a real nice presentation. They would be especially good for small rooms where you are close to the speakers.


Also, their "Eight Of A Sphere" form factor is real conveinent for many wall mounting applications.


The downside of these speakers, is they are bit bright, and you would have to depend on your subwoofer to do all frequencies lower than 110 HZ.


----------



## svadas

With the holiday shopping season right around the corner, I suspect that $99 price at Best Buy will be here again within a few days.


----------



## teller2010

I have the Onkyo 760 system from last year (refurb'd, only $289), and I'll agree, I've had some trouble with the clarity of dialogue from the center channel. Short of purchasing a new set of speakers, is there anything else I can do? I'm worried that if I purchase a nicer center channel, then I'll definately notice the difference between the center and the L & R. Or will this not be the case?


eric


----------



## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by teller2010_
*I have the Onkyo 760 system from last year (refurb'd, only $289), and I'll agree, I've had some trouble with the clarity of dialogue from the center channel. Short of purchasing a new set of speakers, is there anything else I can do? I'm worried that if I purchase a nicer center channel, then I'll definately notice the difference between the center and the L & R. Or will this not be the case?


eric*
It will, but you have to start somewhere. Sooner or later you are going to want better sound quality. I'd start with the mains and center and work outwardly from there.


Check out some quality speakers such as:

â€¢ Paradigm

â€¢ Klipsch

â€¢ Axiom

â€¢ Ascend

â€¢ Rockets


----------



## Golfer2000

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_

Yes without a doubt, you would be better off 


The 99 dollar sale may have been last week. Theres talk on the Speaker forum on where to get them for at around 104 dollars, you may want to check there.


A quick search found them for 114 dollars.
http://www.abesofmaine.com/viewprodu...l=Pricegrabber
They want $23 for UPS ground :hs: Id almost be better off waiting for them to go back on sale :hs:

Quote:

The XR50 is the newer version, slightly more expensive, check out the Audio forum- Receivers amps, theres lots of talk about it. I think they improved the speaker wire clips, and a few other things.
Cool, thanks. Ill be calling up JandR and see what they can do for me tomorrow.


----------------

Quote:

Theres also these Triangular MB Quarts that are sold new on EBAY, I got a pair for 44 bucks plus 7 dollars shipping. Look at the pictures in my AVSForum Gallery.


Model info:

MB Quart QLA 46 2-Way Home Theater Speakers


They are exceedingly clear, but lack the bass of the Athenas. MB Quart is an excellent car audio speaker, and these are a great value. If you teamed these with a good sub, they would be a nice satellite system, very clear.
I will look into these, good looking out

Quote:

3 pairs of these, and using (one or two) of them as your center would give you a real nice presentation. They would be especially good for small rooms where you are close to the speakers.
The room is tiny. enclosed and about 14x10 :hs:

Quote:

Also, their "Eight Of A Sphere" form factor is real conveinent for many wall mounting applications.
No idea what that is but ill look into it.

Quote:

The downside of these speakers, is they are bit bright, and you would have to depend on your subwoofer to do all frequencies lower than 110 HZ.
Thanks


Also I did some reading up on the XR-50 and many say it sounds a bit harsh, what are you views on this? I will only use this system for movies and games, so music isnt a problem. As long as they dont sound like crap, Ill be happy.


----------



## Golfer2000

Quote:

_Originally posted by svadas_
*With the holiday shopping season right around the corner, I suspect that $99 price at Best Buy will be here again within a few days.*
Me too :hs: I was hoping to get my setup before Friday


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by teller2010_
*I have the Onkyo 760 system from last year (refurb'd, only $289), and I'll agree, I've had some trouble with the clarity of dialogue from the center channel. Short of purchasing a new set of speakers, is there anything else I can do? I'm worried that if I purchase a nicer center channel, then I'll definately notice the difference between the center and the L & R. Or will this not be the case?


eric*
Yes, you will have big time mismatch problems, but on the plus side, you will have clear dialogue.


At one point, I had replaced my front 3 speakers. and had a choice of having the Onkyos in the back, or no back speakers.


Having no back speakers sounded much better than having the Onkyo's in back.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Also I did some reading up on the XR-50 and many say it sounds a bit harsh, what are you views on this? I will only use this system for movies and games, so music isnt a problem. As long as they dont sound like crap, Ill be happy.


------------------


You arent gonna get perfection at 225 bucks. I still dont have perfection with my 800 dollar Pioneer, heck the Panasonic probably does some things better than my Pioneer.


It will do fine and give you lots of power to the speakers.


Have you looked at the bookshelf speakers at all the major stores around you? Listen for ones with some bass 


At your price point, the "open box" deals sometimes are worth shopping. Also, If your in a rush, ask the local Best Buy if they will match or come close to the sale price from last week. Worth a shot.


----------



## rak306

Thanks to JohnR_IN_LA and Artisn,


I was about to pluck down $500 at CC to buy the Onkyo after reading "glowing reports" about it. Then I came upon this thread and a few others.


I just ordered the Rocket ELT for $700, and new Panasonic xr-70 for $360. Now I know that more than double what I was going to spend, but I think I will have a system that I'm happy with. If I had not seen it here, I never would have thought of either internet speakers or a lowly Panasonic receiver.


Thanks


Rick


----------



## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by rak306_
*Thanks to JohnR_IN_LA and Artisn,


I was about to pluck down $500 at CC to buy the Onkyo after reading "glowing reports" about it. Then I came upon this thread and a few others.


I just ordered the Rocket ELT for $700, and new Panasonic xr-70 for $360. Now I know that more than double what I was going to spend, but I think I will have a system that I'm happy with. If I had not seen it here, I never would have thought of either internet speakers or a lowly Panasonic receiver.


Thanks


Rick*
Thanks for the appreciation Rick. We try. Unfortunately, less than 50% of the people that start out asking about a cheap HTIB are actually willing to put in the extra time and effort to understand and get a much more rewarding system. If we can even reach 1/2 of you, it makes us feel good


----------



## Golfer2000

I just bought the Dayton sub and the XR50 last night. So all I need now is to pick up the Athenas Thanks John


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Wow congrats, 2 great setups.


That Rocket setup is sweetness, prepare to be amazed.


And Golfer, that setup will give you a good sample of what a full sized HT will do, now. And the thing is, you can upgrade that setup for 100-200 bucks a shot, as money allows.


I would keep an eye out for some used ( or open box) Athena towers or a center, possibly moving your AS-B1s to surrounds duty eventually.


I found local want-ads papers (in my town its called The Recycler) often have some local guy trying to unload his Best Buy gear, for cash. Offer them 100-150 bucks for his Athena towers, and go give them a listen.

That kind of thing.


-----------------------------------


Rick the only part of that Rocket setup your likely to outgrow is the sub. I had to go to a 400 dollar used sub before I was relatively happy.


If your in an apartment though, upgrading subs may not be a good idea lol.


----------



## svadas

Please please please tell me how you like the sub. I'm on the fence about buying it or holding of on a HSU. I really would like to know how good that Dayton is. My Athenas are already starting to mellow out and seem to be a great bargain. Tight with no bloated bass and good clarity and imaging.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Golfer2000_
*I just bought the Dayton sub and the XR50 last night. So all I need now is to pick up the Athenas Thanks John*


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by svadas_
*Please please please tell me how you like the sub. I'm on the fence about buying it or holding of on a HSU.*
I have the Dayton and I really like it. You will have to spend $400+ to get anything that is significantly better.


What is your room size (W x L x Ceiling Height)? Is your room open to other rooms or is it sealed off? What are your listening habits (how loud do you listen to your movies/music)?


If you answer those questions I will be able to give you some better advice as far as a sub.


----------



## svadas

Quote:

_Originally posted by jermy4_
*I have the Dayton and I really like it. You will have to spend $400+ to get anything that is significantly better.


What is your room size (W x L x Ceiling Height)? Is your room open to other rooms or is it sealed off? What are your listening habits (how loud do you listen to your movies/music)?


If you answer those questions I will be able to give you some better advice as far as a sub.*
Well the basement "room" is about 700 sqaure feet with an additional 400 square foot utility room off to the side (but I don't count that, it's just there. It's basically a big square with steps entering from the middle and the theater area will take up one side, but the other side is used as a sewing area so they will want to be able to listen to music coming from the other side when doing sewing stuff. The utility room has access through a door which we normally leave open, but it's no big deal. We watch movies moderately loud, not extreme earplug levels, but I like to be able to feel the action if it's there. Music, not as loud, a lot of the time it's NPR news. I am considering the Dayton, his DIY $325 brother which may not be as good for volume being sealed, the HSU non-tuneable STF-2 (I have and love the VTF-2 in my living room), and maybe even the $425 SVS. I don't want to spend more than I need, as seen by my postings on HTIB.


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by svadas_
*Well the basement "room" is about 700 sqaure feet with an additional 400 square foot utility room off to the side (but I don't count that, it's just there. It's basically a big square with steps entering from the middle and the theater area will take up one side, but the other side is used as a sewing area so they will want to be able to listen to music coming from the other side when doing sewing stuff. The utility room has access through a door which we normally leave open, but it's no big deal. We watch movies moderately loud, not extreme earplug levels, but I like to be able to feel the action if it's there. Music, not as loud, a lot of the time it's NPR news. I am considering the Dayton, his DIY $325 brother which may not be as good for volume being sealed, the HSU non-tuneable STF-2 (I have and love the VTF-2 in my living room), and maybe even the $425 SVS. I don't want to spend more than I need, as seen by my postings on HTIB.*
If you are used to a HSU you might be disappointed with a Dayton. It sounds like your room is pretty big too. You can buy the Dayton and test it out. They do offer a 45 day satisfaction guarantee you would have to pay for the shipping. You could also look into getting on the HSU B-Stock list or look into purchasing a used HSU/SVS to save some money.


Decisions, decisions, decisions ...


I've never heard a HSU but there are lots of people who have both the Dayton and a HSU and claim that they are quite different. You could do some searches to find people who had the Dayton and upgraded to an HSU. If I remember correctly, it seems that most people think it is a significant upgrade.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Every step up in a sub is normally a significant difference.

Theres at least an even chance, that a 300 dollar HSU will be 3x as good as a 100 dollar Dayton.


----------



## DBryant

I have the Dayton and compared it to a freind's 12" HSU sonotube. I also just built a 12" Shiva to compare as well.


Is the dayton better than either? Of course not, but it is decent. It goes down to 25 hz and has some nice punch. You can reach its limits though whereas the Shiva has yet to. Still you can pay $99 for a KLH, so the Dayton is a nice pick-up.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Golfer you may want to look at the Infinity Primus sale at Circuit City!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=473801


----------



## Golfer2000

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Golfer you may want to look at the Infinity Primus sale at Circuit City!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=473801 *
which are better?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Heck I donno. They are roughly on par. Im partial to Infinity, but havent ever had Athenas in the home to really test em out


----------



## afrogt

Golfer 2000,

I purchased Athena B2's and B1's at BB last weekend during the sale. I also have the Dayton 10" sub. It sounds wonderful with my Harman Kardon receiver. They should also work well with your XR-50. When the guy was ringing up my B1's for $99 I noticed a price of $88 on the screen. I'm not sure if that's their cost or bottom sale price. So find a manager, there's room to negotiate, at least back to last weeks sale price. I negotiated the price of by open box B2's from $139 to $110 so there is some definitely some wiggle room.


Then again it's Wednesday evening so they may be on sale again Friday after Turkey Day. Its obvious they're depleting their stock on the Athena Audition line so you can work a deal. Good luck.


----------



## Artisn

You won't do much better than that Infinity sale at CC right now. They are GIVING stuff away!


----------



## svadas

Quote:

_Originally posted by Golfer2000_
*which are better?*
Well Athena is part of the same canadian company that makes Energy & Mirage speakers. They make only speakers and the Canadian government funds their speaker research. Then Athena has these speakers built in China for cheap labor.


Infinity is part of the Harmon group that also makes JBL speakers.


Given that, I'd say Athena, but you could buy a pair of each, compare, report back here with your findings, and then return the worse one.


----------



## Golfer2000

Best Buy has them on sale now for $119, damn you guys are good. :coold: Too bad I wont have my reciever here any time soon


----------



## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by Golfer2000_
*Best Buy has them on sale now for $119, damn you guys are good. :coold: Too bad I wont have my reciever here any time soon *
Golfer2000 - With what you are saving on speakers, you can get a REALLY good receiver!


----------



## millerwill

OK, I know you guys don't like the Onkyo 770 HTiB: I do find it fine, however, except for the center speaker.


Is there a center speaker that anyone could recommend that would be reasonably compatible with the others?


----------



## Artisn

What about that Infinity Alpha 37C Black Center Channel Speaker?


----------



## millerwill

FWIW: The Onkyo HTS-770 is listed for $400 now at CC.


----------



## Grae

Okay, I can't say how thankful I am for the advise given on this thread. It's helped me pick out what I think to be a great speaker package. Today I just picked up the Infinity Primus 250's, 150's, and C25 center for an amazing price of just $226. Now I have to finish up the system and I need a suggestion quickly on the rest of the components I need, because I'd like to pick up a reciever and possible sub tonight when I can still get a good deal on them. My choices in recievers come down to the Panasonic SAXR50 for about $220 now and an Onkyo TXSR601 which I can get for $130. Another possible choice is a Harmon Kardon AVR330 for $275, but that one is probably out of my price range. I'm leaning to the Onkyo because of the price and specs, but I do like the notion that the Panasonic is digital, runs cool, and is more aesthetically pleasing. Out of those 2 and if the the Harmon is considerally better than those, which should I get? For the subwoofer I have a choice between the Dayton 10" which was suggested and a JBL E250P 12" that I can get for $115. Would the JBL be better? I need an answer by tonight if all possible. Thanks again for all the help.


----------



## Artisn

I would definitely NOT get the Panny. Why not get a used or refirb? That way, you can get a $500 receiver for around $300. Try and find a good deal on a Marantz or Denon. I wouldn't rush into it and get a really cheap receiver with that nice speaker package. Wait a few weeks if that's what it takes. You will be happier in the long run.


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by Artisn_
*What about that Infinity Alpha 37C Black Center Channel Speaker?*
Where can one find this speaker, and about what should one expect to pay? Thanks much!


----------



## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*Where can one find this speaker, and about what should one expect to pay? Thanks much!*
I heard Circuit City is virtually giving them away!


----------



## Grae

The Onkyo 601 is a $500 reciever. I really don't want to wait because I highly doubt that I will get a better deal than this.


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by Grae_
*The Onkyo 601 is a $500 reciever. I really don't want to wait because I highly doubt that I will get a better deal than this.*
I have the Onkyo and it is a pretty solid receiver. I paid a little over $300 for mine and I thought that was a good deal. It is the model from last year. For $130 you can't go wrong, you could easily sell it for a profit.


----------



## Artisn

For that price, I really don't think you will do better than that Onkyo if you want something new.


----------



## BrianKR

John, thx for starting this thread.


I was very close to pulling the trigger on a HTIB from *****. My son is asking for a sound system for his bedroom for Christmas. He wants one for gaming. I am trying to keep it under $500 (he is only 11) but I am most likely going to go kick it up a few hundred more and piece together a system for him.


If I didn't read this thread I might've made a mistake.

I might just order an ELT package


----------



## Artisn

Quote:

_Originally posted by BrianKR_
*John, thx for starting this thread.


I was very close to pulling the trigger on a HTIB from *****. My son is asking for a sound system for his bedroom for Christmas. He wants one for gaming. I am trying to keep it under $500 (he is only 11) but I am most likely going to go kick it up a few hundred more and piece together a system for him.


If I didn't read this thread I might've made a mistake.

I might just order an ELT package*
Way to go! At least we can save a few


----------



## BrianKR

I didn't forget you Artisn, I just didn't want to fan any flames. 

That's what forums like these are all about, educating people with opinions or facts. Speakers/sound is all about personal preference but trash is trash no matter how much deodorizer you spray on it.


Educating yourself will most likely save you money and having to deal with buyer's remorse later. Do you have any idea how many Bose customers wish they educated themselves before spending the chunk of change they did on "that" trash?


I was mostly looking to purchase a HTIB to save time and money and for myself not to get tempted into spending more than I should.



I am now looking into infinity (primus, alpha and modulus *my son would love the modulus just because of how they look* but I would need WAF for that amount of cash), Athena, JBL's and Mirage setups. I am headed out right now to shop/listen to them.


thx again


----------



## KLAMP1

Wow...


I was going to get this Onkyo HTIB but now you guys have forced me to reconsider...


All the info / advice spewed forth in this thread alone has helped me avoid what I now believe was going to be a purchase I would not be happy with... So thank you all for the different perspectives...


I'm just making the plunge this holiday season into home theater and was looking to compliment my newly purchased plasma with a new surround sound setup, hence my gravitation towards the HTIB for ease of "use", ease of price and frankly, lack of knowledge on speakers and receivers in general (my knowledge of this can be summed up in my thinking that "more wattage = must be better"...... So any other basic info / links / you guys could put forth would be greatly appreciated as I just stumbled on this forum today...


So, now I'm thinking of spending somewhere in the $600 range for a good receiver and speaker set-up...


I was mostly going for the Onkyo HTIB to get the 6.1 receiver as it had the features I was looking for...


Now, I'm hoping to hear more about the Onkyo 601 / 602 / 502 receivers (or other recs you guys have) as I'm pretty much open to anything right now (so long as it is feature-rich)...


As for the speakers, I'll most likely be blindly following the recommendations you all have made here, especially to get started on my home theater setup as I don't really know the first thing about speaker setups but am willing to spend some extra bucks to get a better setup...


Any setups / configurations you can continue to recommend as an alternative to the HTIB, I'd be eternally grateful for...! I'm ready to take the plunge right now and am itching to get it all in hooked up...!


Again, thanks for the info and please keep it coming...!


----------



## jermy4

Klamp,


The best advise I can give is to go out and listen to as many speakers as you can. You will start to realize what kind of sound you are looking for. Then you can start buying the speakers pairs at a time if you don't have all the money at first. When you are finished you will have a setup that you are quite happy with.


Cheers,


JR


----------



## jamawass

The Onkyo 770 costs as low as $399 ( weekend special @ circuit city), $469 online, with the standalone receiver costing around $ 300 can you go wrong by starting with this and then changing the speakers later? At most you'll only be out $100-200. I don't think people who buy HTIB are under the illusion they're getting the best money can buy, they just want an affordable upgrade from their tv's speakers.


----------



## KLAMP1

Yeah, with purchasing the 770 I feel like I'd be getting a decent receiver and eventually replace the speakers later, being out only


----------



## millerwill

The receiver in the 770 system is the HT-R520.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Look on the speaker forum, theres some Infinitys onsale at Circuit City, the primus, and they are real cheap.



BTW the reciever that came with my Onkyo HTIB, Model HT-500, was feature-rich, but had a very weak power supply. Its ok for little speakers *maybe* but you can do much better.


Its a shame because the features and capabilities were right up there with real recievers.


----------



## millerwill

I think the big sale on the Primus' is at CompUSA.


----------



## millerwill

FWIW: the AV receiver with the Onkyo HTS770 is the HT-R520, rated at 130 wts/ch. 130x6 + 220 wts amp of the sub-woofer is how that get the "1000 watt system" claim.


----------



## RelDudeGOP

yeh we got them on sale at compusa...but its almost all our home audio, not just infinity


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*FWIW: the AV receiver with the Onkyo HTS770 is the HT-R520, rated at 130 wts/ch. 130x6 + 220 wts amp of the sub-woofer is how that get the "1000 watt system" claim.*
I had the predecessor reciever, the HT-500, which claimed to have 100 RMS a channels, with a 150 RMS subwoofer. and it was called the HTS-650.


Well some guy with equipment measured it at 32RMS per channel, and posted his findings on some other HT site.


And then I bought my current speakers (Rockets), which are reasonably power hungry, and they sounded like they were being driven by a clock radio, hah.


So i picked up a used Yamaha reciever for 300 bucks, problem solved.


----------



## millerwill

OK: I have replaced the center speaker of my Onkyo 770 system with the Infinity Primus C25, and the improvement is indeed remarkable! Much clearer and more pleasing. I am thus now contemplating replacing the L and R front speakers with the Primus 160's. Does this seem reasonable to the more knowledgeable ones of you? I think I will then just hang with the Onkyo surrounds (all they really do is just add ambience) and the sub-woofer, which seems quite OK for my room (~17x14, with rugs, sofas, etc.) Also, the Onkyo AVR seems to have no problem driving the Primus; are these Infinities particularly efficient speakers?


Final question: I saw an incredibly good price for the 160's on an internet site 'soundsdirtcheap'; is this place reliable?


----------



## millerwill

Another question! In looking for L&R 'mains' to replace my Onkyo 770 speakers (to go with the Primus C25 center channel I just got), I presume that the Primus 160's would be better than the 150's; is that right? Also, I saw a pair of Infinity ' Entra One's that seem to have about the same specs as the 160. Any advice would be appreciated! (Thanks for the advice I've already gotten!)


----------



## millerwill

Help please with advice: Need to decide asap wheterh the Infinity Primus 150's or 160's be the better choice as the L/R 'mains' to go with the c25 center speaker, in a room ~17' x 14'? (Have a subwoofer and surrounds to go with them.)


Thanks much.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Check the pricing at Circuit City and Compusa too. IF its a few bucks more, i would go with the brick and mortar.


Not familiar with the Entra One, but it has the CMMD (Ceramic Metal Matrix) cones, which may be a bit better than the MMD (Metal Matrix) cones.



I heard those two cones were actually similar, and that the MMD actually had the Ceramic coating also.



These Infinity cones are pretty high tech, btw. Ultra light, and ultra rigid.


If you really want to splurge, get the towers with the 2 mid drivers.


----------



## millerwill

CC's prices are poor; CompUSA has a fantastic sale going on, but they don't carry the Primus 160's, only the 150's and the C25 center (which I got from them).


----------



## rkumar3

Miller and others... CC will price match Compusa and give you and an extra 10% of the difference. I picked up a pair of 250s and a pair of 150s the other day from CC... just told the sales person about Crapusa sale prices and had him pull up their site with prices and he price matched alongwith an extra 10% of the difference. Since C25 wasn't listed on Crapusa site, I went to their store and picked it up..


I am just starting to build my HT and feel i have a good start with some quality speakers. Now i am looking for semi-decent receiver (budget problems) and a Sub (might postpone it for now) to go along with them. So far looking at the board, it seems Panasonic XR50 is the best bang for the buck.. so might end up doing that!!!!!!


Anybody has any other suggestions??


----------



## Megalith

Unfortunately I didn't stumble into this thread until i picked up my Onkyo 770 from Outpost. At first I was pretty pleased with the system, but right now, I'm pretty aggravated with it.


My problems with it at the moment is that the speakers that come with it seem to do a real bad job with treble, and the subwoofer is a freak of nature.


I've been trying to set-up the treble and bass settings, almost day in and day out to find what I like, but it seems that no matter what I do, one piece of music or game or movie may sound great, but something else may sound terrible. So I find myself changing the bass/treble/subwoofer settings constantly.


It seems impossible to get a good balance between treble and bass on these speakers. If you don't turn treble up nearly to max (+12db), effects will not be clear, but if you do that, everything will start sounding raspy. I seriously think it's just crappy speakers.


The subwoofer also pisses me off. I admit, I have it set up in probably the most idiotic location possible (in-between two desks by a side wall), but it sounds like a lot of stuff that comes out of the sub is garbage. The subwoofer is only up at half, but I am always getting a "messy rumble" out of it. I rarely feel any tight and punchy bass. I'm not sure if the location of the sub is to blame, but I've heard that the receiver that comes with the 770 actually feeds garbage lfe information into the sub, which may produce this. However, it hasn't been confirmed I don't think.


Well, I don't know what to do at this point. I'd like to get new speakers and probably a new Dayton sub, and I'm not that dissapointed, as long as someone can tell me that at least I can keep my receiver for good use so it wasn't a total waste...


----------



## millerwill

Megalith: I got the 770 and have just recently replaced the center speaker with the Infinity Primus c25 ($88 at CompUSA), and have order 2 160's ($80 ea from an internet site). To me the subwoofer is OK (perhaps my lack of experience!), and the AVR seems to do fine; and the surrounds don't seem to do anything but add ambience. The c25 center speaker makes a WORLD of difference, probably the most dramatic improvement possible. Replacing the L&R mains with the Primus 160's will be good too, I'm sure, but probably not be as noticeable as the center.


----------



## jermy4

I was shocked and amazed at how much of an improvement the Athena B2s made in my setup over the Onkyo surrounds. I think if I had to do it all over again I would have turned off the Onkyo surrounds and went without them. They just made things sound worse.


I'm referring to my setup of Onkyo SR602 receiver, Athena AS-F2 mains, & Athena AS-C1 center channel with the Onkyo surrounds.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by Megalith_
*Unfortunately I didn't stumble into this thread until i picked up my Onkyo 770 from Outpost. At first I was pretty pleased with the system, but right now, I'm pretty aggravated with it.


My problems with it at the moment is that the speakers that come with it seem to do a real bad job with treble, and the subwoofer is a freak of nature.


I've been trying to set-up the treble and bass settings, almost day in and day out to find what I like, but it seems that no matter what I do, one piece of music or game or movie may sound great, but something else may sound terrible. So I find myself changing the bass/treble/subwoofer settings constantly.


It seems impossible to get a good balance between treble and bass on these speakers. If you don't turn treble up nearly to max (+12db), effects will not be clear, but if you do that, everything will start sounding raspy. I seriously think it's just crappy speakers.


The subwoofer also pisses me off. I admit, I have it set up in probably the most idiotic location possible (in-between two desks by a side wall), but it sounds like a lot of stuff that comes out of the sub is garbage. The subwoofer is only up at half, but I am always getting a "messy rumble" out of it. I rarely feel any tight and punchy bass. I'm not sure if the location of the sub is to blame, but I've heard that the receiver that comes with the 770 actually feeds garbage lfe information into the sub, which may produce this. However, it hasn't been confirmed I don't think.


Well, I don't know what to do at this point. I'd like to get new speakers and probably a new Dayton sub, and I'm not that dissapointed, as long as someone can tell me that at least I can keep my receiver for good use so it wasn't a total waste...*
Hah can you return it? Or Ebay it?


In my (earlier but similar version) Onkyo HTIB, each part had a fatal weakness.


The analog HT-500 reciever, which only weighed about 16 lbs, produced very little wattage. I kept that for about 6 months, until i got larger speakers and really noticed they were starving for power. Replaced it with a used 33lb reciever ( Yamaha RXV-995) and the difference was incredible.


The subwoofer, if you turn it low, does the ambience pretty well. Theres definitely a setting you dont want to go over, where it becomes a boomy mess. I kept that for about 9 months, replaced it with a used Sony WM-40 for 120 bucks, the difference was very nice.


The Sony subwoofer wasnt powerful enough either, and i eventually replaced that, but it was a nice interim step ( after I filled the cabinet with fiberfill, a well known WM-40 modification).



-------------------


The best part of the Onkyos, is that you can Ebay it for pretty close to full value, they more or less sell themselves, because it "looks" like a great deal.


----------



## millerwill

I have recently gotten an Infinity Primus C25 center speaker and 2 Primus 160's for the L&R mains. I would like to get 2 Primus surrounds (~9.5"x5.25"x6.75", 4" MMD driver) but they are listed on the Infinity web site only in the Primus Theater Pack. Does anyone know where one could get two of the Primus surrounds without the whole Theater Pack?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Maybe used on Ebay or something?

I would go for the 150s in back, so you get some mid-bass back there for helicopter flyovers


----------



## millerwill

Thanks much! As is often the case, by the time I got your response I had already answered my question. The surrounds of the Primus Theater System are the Primus 140's, with 4'" MMD drivers, which should be quite sufficient for surrounds, I think. Also found an internet site where I could get a pair of them for $90, much better than Crutchfield, etc. Yes, the 150's would certainly have more punch as surrounds, but size-wise they don't work nearly as well as the much smaller 140's (which need to be wall-mounted).


So between CompUSA for the center, and two internet sites, I have an 'all Primus system' [the C25 center, 2 160's (the L&R mains), and 2 140's (the surrounds)] for $340. Not too bad. Thanks again for steering me in this direction.


Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Maybe used on Ebay or something?

I would go for the 150s in back, so you get some mid-bass back there for helicopter flyovers *


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Thats a killer setup


----------



## NES.God

JohnR, This thread has been invaluable to me. I had (and still don't really) no speaker system at all and was about to buy the Onkyo 770 HTIB for $350-400 online when i found this thread. After reading all this new information and your suggested systems several time I decided to look at the infinity speakers.


I found the sale at CompUSA and went to my local shop to see if they had anything (they had nothing at all, it is a small store and they never carried them). After searching the internet for a while longer I found the next closest CompUSA was 90 miles away but figured it would be worth it to save big bucks. When I searched the site right before heading out they had (4) 250s and only (1) 150 in stock so I wasn't as excited but was still worth it for the towers. An hour and a half later I arrived at the store and found they had (6) 250's (2) 150's (3)c25's and (3) PS8's but they were all marked very high (15 to 30$ off retail, $170 on the 250) so i had to get the manager over and explain the online pricing. It turned out the online pricing was in their system so there wasn't a problem, For the trouble the manager gave me free 4 year replacement on anything I bought. At the time I arrived at the store i still didn't know what system I was trying to build (5.1,6.1 or 7.1) as i was probably only getting towers and maybe a center. I ended up buying (2)250's for L/R C25 for Center Channel 2 150s for 5.1 surround and since they didn't have more 150s I finished it off with a set of US1 for $59 to place at 7.1 surrounds. The total with tax came to just under $500. And $120 of that was warranties, so ~$375 for a decent 7.1 speaker set up.


I still don't have a receiver so I cant tell you how they are but I am confident they are much better than the onkyo for around the same price (without a receiver or subwoofer).


Question 1: I would like some help picking out a receiver if possible even though I have it narrowed down to one choice, please comment on it or offer alternative.

Now that I have 7 speakers I would like to have 7.1, 6.1 is still an option though. I am using a DLP projector and have noticed slight lip sync problems (I understand running video through the receiver will make it worse) So I am also interested in lip sync delay. The model I am looking at currently is the Yamaha HTR-5760 at the $300 price point which i am comfortable with but don't want to go higher.


Question 2: I am also looking for a subwoofer but don't want to spend a lot on it, I have never before owned a subwoofer so I guess anything is an improvement. The PS8 at Compusa was $199 so i passed on that while thinking of the $99 Dayton mentioned in this thread. Thoughts?


Question 3: Okay, this is the real reason for my post and I desperately seek any advice. This is concerning the 'Free' 4 year warranty I got on the Infinity Primus line. Instead of giving me the warranty for free the price of the warranty ($20) was deducted from the price of the speaker and then the warranty was added for $20. Now the receipt shows the [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] After reading in the TAP Handbook "The Price of the replacement Product shall not exceed the retail purchase price of the original Covered Product" I am no longer sure if the warranty is much good. If one of the towers Dies does that mean they only have $79 to replace it with and have the option of just returning the $79 to me and getting out of the deal (also the $79 would be store credit)? If this were the case, and the Primus are going out of production, and there is no way the provider would upgrade to a newer (more expensive) model, Wouldn't i be better off without the warranties and having $120 more in my pocket??

I have 30 days to get back 100% of the warranty cost.

I am slightly confused on this and any help or discussion is appreciated.

I haven't opened any of the speakers yet so does anyone know what kind of MFG Warranty there is?


Sorry for the many questions and run away stories, maybe I should have had a new thread.


Audio Newbie

- NES.God


----------



## jermy4

Infinity currently has a 5 year warranty on all of their home audio speakers. Go back to your local compusa and get your warranty money back. Speakers are usually dead out of the box or last a long time (that is if you take care of them). Your chances of having problems after the first few months of use is very unlikely. Also, if the warranty you paid for is a replacement warranty and the speakers are discontinued I would think you would be offered the newer model. If they don't then it is hardly a replacement warranty.


I would take your $120 and order the Dayton sub while it's still on sale (the sale is supposed to end on 12/5).


If you are looking for receiver recommendations you might want to do some searches on the receiver forum for words like "cheap" or "budget" or "bang for the buck". You should get some decent hits with at least one of those.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Excellent setup, the 250s were a great upgrade. I am not sure i would drive 90 miles to get the 20 dollar warranty back, in fact I wouldnt worry about it at all. The 20 dollars might help cover Compusa's cost in shipping anything broken back for repairs.


I agree with Jermy4 though, buy the Dayton and be done with it, for now.


All this stuff can be upgraded later, in bits and pieces, should this hobby appeal to you.


At your budget, I would look at the Panasonic XR-50 receiver.


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*I am not sure i would drive 90 miles to get the 20 dollar warranty back, in fact I wouldnt worry about it at all.*
He did mention that he also had a local CompUsa. I would go to the one that is closest and get the warranty money back. As far as I know it is a chain and any CompUsa should be able to refund him that warranty money.


It might not sound like much but that warranty money would easily buy him the Dayton subwoofer. And that is a better use of his $$$ since he is trying to do this at a reasonable budget.


----------



## NES.God

If they wont let me cancel the warranties instore I can cancel them by phone or snail-mail. I plan to return them one way or another after i set up the speakers, I know the MFG warranty or store policy should cover DOA.


I should probably switch over to the receiver forum here but lets keep this thread alive, I am sure there are more newbs like me learning in this thread. JohnR suggested the Panasonic SA XR50 for a cheap reciever. I couldnt find anything about lipsync correction with this unit, Is it a feature? I am noticing some sync problems already(DLP front projector), will sending video through the XR50 have any effect on the sync? What are the advantages of going to a digital reciever?


For another ~$80 i can get the yamaha 5760 which has 7.1, lip sync correction and PLIIX(this is stereo to 7.1 upmixing right?) probably more stuff that I dont know what is too.



Seeking knowledge,

Audio Newbie

-NES.God


----------



## gxshiem

Considering the price of the C25 I'm also jumping on the bandwagon and purchasing them to replace the center on my Onkyo HT-S770. Now a question. Can I also replace the main's in the HT-S770 with the Primus 250's (again considering their price)? Or is the receiver not a good match for the 250's?

Thanks


----------



## millerwill

gxsheim: I think the answer is 'yes', but more knowledgeable persons may want to comment on it. Like you, I first replaced the center of my 770 system with the C25, and the improvement was truly amazing; and I get much more (and most importantly, clearer) sound out of it than I did from the Onkyo center at the same volume setting on the Onkyo AVR. I have now ordered 2 Primus 160's for my L&R mains; they are bookshelf but have the same 6.5" driver as the 250. Found them on the internet for $80 each, i.e., $20 more than you can get a 150 for, but with the 6.5" driver rather than a 5.5", thus presumably giving a fuller sound (though I haven't heard them). I'm even planning to replace the surrounds with 2 Primus 140's (about the same size as the Onkyo surrounds) which can be found for $45 each, and go with 5.1 rather than 6.1 (or just leave one of the Onkyo surrounds for the center back). For the foreseeable future I am going to keep the Onkyo subwoofer and AVR, which seem OK at present (and others have commented are the most 'acceptible' components of the 770 system).


----------



## gxshiem

Hey thanks millerwill. That sounds awesome. I'll look up where I can find the 160's because that seems like another alternative. Now I only need to know if I can use the 250's.


Anyone else there have some input on using the 250's on the HT-S770's receiver? JohnR_IN_LA? Artisn?


Thanks.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

I would go for it, the Infinitys are very efficient for as large as they are. I wouldnt go any larger than that though.


Then find some young guy at work that wants the subwoofer, sell that to him for 45 bucks, and buy the Dayton


----------



## gxshiem

Thanks JohnR_IN_LA! I already setup the 250's and they're great.


----------



## svadas

1. I would go with a 7.1 receiver now so that you don't have to rebuy one in the future. You can get a THX Pioneer for about $375, which is more than you want to pay, but it's worth way more than that. A lot of people are Yamaha fans, but I am not one of them.


2. Get the Dayton and use the extra cash on the receiver. I will either be getting the Dayton myself or spend $400 on an HSU. I'm leaning towards the Dayton right now. Maybe I'll just get 2 of them.


3. Making the speakers cheaper and charging you for the warranty is a scam. They are making 100% profit on that useless warranty. I would think Infinity's warranty should be 5 or even 7 years. At the very least 3 years. return the warranty and use the money for speaker wire and cables.


I am in the same boat as you, but I am going the Athena route as the Infinity deal was not an available option at the time I got my mains. Just getting 1 piece every few weeks until I'm done.













Quote:

_Originally posted by NES.God_
*JohnR, This thread has been invaluable to me. I had (and still don't really) no speaker system at all and was about to buy the Onkyo 770 HTIB for $350-400 online when i found this thread. After reading all this new information and your suggested systems several time I decided to look at the infinity speakers.


I found the sale at CompUSA and went to my local shop to see if they had anything (they had nothing at all, it is a small store and they never carried them). After searching the internet for a while longer I found the next closest CompUSA was 90 miles away but figured it would be worth it to save big bucks. When I searched the site right before heading out they had (4) 250s and only (1) 150 in stock so I wasn't as excited but was still worth it for the towers. An hour and a half later I arrived at the store and found they had (6) 250's (2) 150's (3)c25's and (3) PS8's but they were all marked very high (15 to 30$ off retail, $170 on the 250) so i had to get the manager over and explain the online pricing. It turned out the online pricing was in their system so there wasn't a problem, For the trouble the manager gave me free 4 year replacement on anything I bought. At the time I arrived at the store i still didn't know what system I was trying to build (5.1,6.1 or 7.1) as i was probably only getting towers and maybe a center. I ended up buying (2)250's for L/R C25 for Center Channel 2 150s for 5.1 surround and since they didn't have more 150s I finished it off with a set of US1 for $59 to place at 7.1 surrounds. The total with tax came to just under $500. And $120 of that was warranties, so ~$375 for a decent 7.1 speaker set up.


I still don't have a receiver so I cant tell you how they are but I am confident they are much better than the onkyo for around the same price (without a receiver or subwoofer).


Question 1: I would like some help picking out a receiver if possible even though I have it narrowed down to one choice, please comment on it or offer alternative.

Now that I have 7 speakers I would like to have 7.1, 6.1 is still an option though. I am using a DLP projector and have noticed slight lip sync problems (I understand running video through the receiver will make it worse) So I am also interested in lip sync delay. The model I am looking at currently is the Yamaha HTR-5760 at the $300 price point which i am comfortable with but don't want to go higher.


Question 2: I am also looking for a subwoofer but don't want to spend a lot on it, I have never before owned a subwoofer so I guess anything is an improvement. The PS8 at Compusa was $199 so i passed on that while thinking of the $99 Dayton mentioned in this thread. Thoughts?


Question 3: Okay, this is the real reason for my post and I desperately seek any advice. This is concerning the 'Free' 4 year warranty I got on the Infinity Primus line. Instead of giving me the warranty for free the price of the warranty ($20) was deducted from the price of the speaker and then the warranty was added for $20. Now the receipt shows the [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] After reading in the TAP Handbook "The Price of the replacement Product shall not exceed the retail purchase price of the original Covered Product" I am no longer sure if the warranty is much good. If one of the towers Dies does that mean they only have $79 to replace it with and have the option of just returning the $79 to me and getting out of the deal (also the $79 would be store credit)? If this were the case, and the Primus are going out of production, and there is no way the provider would upgrade to a newer (more expensive) model, Wouldn't i be better off without the warranties and having $120 more in my pocket??

I have 30 days to get back 100% of the warranty cost.

I am slightly confused on this and any help or discussion is appreciated.

I haven't opened any of the speakers yet so does anyone know what kind of MFG Warranty there is?


Sorry for the many questions and run away stories, maybe I should have had a new thread.


Audio Newbie

- NES.God*


----------



## Megalith

Hmm, I'm also interested in getting the C25, but I keep getting the impression that the R520 receiver is rubbish and won't do them any justice.


However, there's no point in getting a new receiver first because I'd still be using the craptastic Onkyo speakers, so I'm willing to upgrade each and every Onkyo POS until I finally switch out the original receiver.


Is CompUSA the absolute best price where the C25 can be obtained? I've checked the site, and it's not there, so I'm assuming it is store only. Hopefully it isn't rare in stores. Can someone confirm the price of the C25 as being $88?


Sigh...if the 770 wasn't so damn big, I'd return it all in an instant. I'm going to have to hope I can sell the pieces off bit by bit on eBay.


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Well its Sunday now bro, the day after sales prices normally end, why did you wait?


Whether the Compusa price was the absolute best can be figured out by doing pricegrabber.com searches, and ebay searches. The fact is, it was a brick and mortar, with a great price, thats a no-brainer for me, good price + returnable.


GXShiem just confirmed that the 520 receiver works great with the Infinity speakers, see his posts.


----------



## millerwill

Yes, the C25 is in the store (bought one), and the Onkyo 520 (of the 770 system) drives it just fine; it made a WORLD of difference in replacing the Onkyo center with the c25. I was so impressed that I have also ordered 2 160's ($80ea on the internet) and 2 140's ($45 ea on the internet) for mains and surrounds, respectively. The Primus are very efficient and should be no problem for the 520 AVR.


----------



## Megalith

Oh, I didn't realize that the C25 price was part of a sale. I'm short right now anyways, but at least I'm confident now that Primus will make great replacements.


But while everyone is picking up the Primus models, Athena is considered as a good alternative, right? Or Primus is ultimately the better choice?


----------



## millerwill

I think the Athena is fine, certainly comparable to the Infinity--it's just that the current prices on the Primus models are so incredible. My understanding is that CompUSA is selling them out, so the 'sale' will last until they are all gone.


----------



## gxshiem

Ohh yes! The Onkyo 520 AVR does indeed work great with the Infinity Primus speakers. The deal that CompUSA has is really unbelievable. I've had my Onkyo HTS770 for less than 2 weeks and bam this deals comes up. Hopefully when you make your decission CompUSA will still have the Primus.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Some report the Athenas having slightly more authorative bass, so they may well be better. On the other hand, the Infinitys have a reputation of a very clean uncolored sound, so they may be better.


Hard to say without comparing them side by side.


----------



## ironfoot995

Well, just returned from a trip to Dallas from Norman, OK (ask me about my new grandson born Friday), and while I was there decided to check out the Infinitys at CompUSA. The store in Plano had the C25, but the only 250s they had left were the floor models. Asked what kind of deal they would give me for taking them off their hands, and they knocked 20.00 off each speaker and gave me an extended 2-year warranty. I took them.


The first thing I did when getting home was to unbox and hook them up to my 5-year old JVC HTIB receiver and it's amazing how improved the sound is from my D* Sammy 360. The 5.1 sound of the NFL game on Fox is very improved. The crowd noise now does not drown out the announcers.


The salesman at CompUSA told me they are discontinuing the separate sound system pieces in favor of going exclusively to HTIB. He's not happy about it but it's a corporate decision.


I've used up all the WAF on this for now, but next I'll be looking to replace my receiver with a 7.1 system and add new side and rear surrounds.


John


----------



## TLVictory

Quote:

_Originally posted by teller2010_
*I have the Onkyo 760 system from last year (refurb'd, only $289), and I'll agree, I've had some trouble with the clarity of dialogue from the center channel. Short of purchasing a new set of speakers, is there anything else I can do? I'm worried that if I purchase a nicer center channel, then I'll definately notice the difference between the center and the L & R. Or will this not be the case?


eric*
To increase dialog clarity, try upping the center channel volume a few db in the setup menu.


----------



## jamawass

Got my 770 yesterday and they sound really good. A friend of mine who was visiting helped me set it up and he used to work in a recording studio (music production, mixing tracks, etc) so is pretty knowledgeable about acoustics and all that. He couldn't believe it only cost me $ 469 with speaker stands. Say what you may but I don't think you can match that value with any discrete system..


----------



## mflaster

Does anyone have any comments about matching Alpha centers with the Primus fronts?


For about the same amount of money, I could get either
1 Primus C25
2 150 fronts
3 140 surrounds

or
1 Alpha 37C
2 150 fronts
2 140 surrounds

I want to get 140's, to make it easy to wall mount high and aim downwards. In the first choice, it's all Primus, and I get an extra surround (for the rear), in the second choice, I get the 37C - but it would be matched with Primus fronts.


Anyone care to comment? The alphas have 1" CMMD tweeters, and are spec'ed up to 22 khz, while the Primus has 3/4" MMD tweeters, and are spec'ed up to 20 khz.


Mike


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

I would definitely choose option 2, with the Alpha center.


Remember 70% of the total sound come out of the center, and very little comes out of the rears.


Also, most all multi-channel is based on 5 speakers, so you want to make sure that you have the best 5 speakers that you can get, before adding a 6th or a 7th channel.


You would not believe the difference when I went to rear speakers that had good mid-bass, all the sudden the whole soundstage stretched the length of the room. Thats a vote for 150s in the back.


Also, adding a 6th and a 7th speaker doesnt mean you will get any more sound, since the source, your receiver, is providing all the power from 1 power supply.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by BrianKR_
*John, thx for starting this thread.


I was very close to pulling the trigger on a HTIB from *****. My son is asking for a sound system for his bedroom for Christmas. He wants one for gaming. I am trying to keep it under $500 (he is only 11) but I am most likely going to go kick it up a few hundred more and piece together a system for him.


If I didn't read this thread I might've made a mistake.

I might just order an ELT package*
The ELT package is like a quantum leap forward from any HTIB that I know of.


Those AV123 bookshelf speakers dont flinch. you play music or movies or anything, and they are guaranteed to not suck.


They have these aluminum drivers that just pump out mid-bass, so theres no compression of the audio-range that occurs with lesser drivers. The model I got (which has almost identical drivers as the ELTs) completely trounced my Infinitys and my Boston Acoustics ( which were good full-sized bookeshelf speakers too).


----------



## svadas

Don't metal drivers (aluminum) have a resonance issue? How do they get around that or do they still ring?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

These are very high tech drivers, nothing even remotely like ringing. Not sure how its designed, although I know most quality manufacturers wouldnt put up with distortion like that.


----------



## Golfer2000

John I was wondering would I be better off with the XR50 the dayton and a pair of AS-F1s or the B1s? I can afford the f1s now, but the b1s arent on sale still. So the F1s are only 50$ more at this point. TIA


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Not sure bro, Athenas are nice, but I dont have much experience with them.


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## Megalith

Quick question:


I'm deciding whether to go for the Primus 150s or 160s. The deal for for the 150s are great at CompUSA, but I'd like to know how much of a quality difference there is between the models. Would it be worth shelling out the extra hundred bucks?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Good question. How big is your room? The 160s would handle larger rooms better.


Also, how about keeping the 150s, and then spending the upgrade money on a better center channel?


Or - Getting the 250s up front.


If the prices for the upgrade were all equal (i doubt they are) I would get the better center first, the Beta 360 would be an incredible upgrade

http://www.infinitysystems.com/homea...s=BET&cat=CCS, 


then upgrade the front Left/Rights... either to a 160 or 250


and last i would upgrade the rears.


----------



## Megalith

My room isn't too large. It's only about 11x11 ft.


I actually might end up getting fronts first, since I play more games than watch movies, and they typically utilize those much more.


Oh, in addition...Vanns seems to have a good deal on the Infinity Alpha center:

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it...ails/548249806 


I was originally going for the Primus C25, but in comparing the specs, they are not equal, but one seems to perform better in one category than the other, and vice versa. The Alpha is only on sale for $90 (C25 is $88 at CompUSA, but I'm not sure if the sale is still on), so I'd like to know if this would be an acceptable alternative, since the C25 normally goes for $180+.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Nice find, get the Alpha over the Primus!


The Beta 360 is better and the midrange driver on it will make a difference with voices, but only if budget allows.


----------



## setherd

great thread people. I reccomended the 770 to my dad based on some other threads, but I may now reconsider. I was also thinking of getting the 770 for myself.


question? how does the onkyo 520 receiver compare to the panasonic SA-XR25

I know John you said your older onkyo put out less power than stated.


here is what I was thinking of.

panasonic SA-XR25--$175 (shipped)

Infinity alpha center--$90

dayton subwoffer--$100

Athena Technologies AS-B1(pair) -$120

--------total-------------- $485


would Primus 150's be a better choice than the B1's?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Your risking a mismatch across the front by not sticking with Infinitys. Either go all Athena, or all Infinity.


Other than that, it sounds like a great setup.


----------



## Megalith

I was wondering if there would be a high probability of mismatch if I were to mix different lines of Infinity, such as Primus alongside Alpha.


I'm pretty set on the Primus models for the fronts and surrounds, but I am still juggling between sticking with Primus for the center, or getting an Alpha or Beta.


What would make the most sense?:


Beta C250s: $130

Alpha: $90

Primus C25: $110


I'm leaning towards the Beta though. I really don't know anything other than the fact that the beta line is their newest. The Alphas were supposedly phased out, and are inferior to the betas since they were developed under different conditions, but the deal still seems good over at Vanns.


I'm really just worried about voice mis-matching, of course. Interestingly enough, CNET claims that the Primus center is mis-matched even alongside its own line and creates a "stair-case effect", but I don't think that is too credible.


----------



## caser85

First off I want to say this thread is great! I was real close to getting a HIB, but this thread has changed my mind.


Everyone seems to really like the Infinity Primus series, but how about Polk R15s?


Here's the setup I'm thinking about:


Harman Kardon AVR 130 ($200 through eBay)

Two Polk R15s for front

Dayton 10" sub


Later I'll add two more polk R15s for surround and then get a good Polk center channel.


What do you guys think? Would the Primus 150 be a better value? Do you think the Panny would be better than the H/K?


Thanks again for all your help!


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Megalith - CNET may not be mistaken, centers often dont exactly match the mains. My center doesnt match my mains, its a tad higher.


That said, If you really want to splurge, get the Beta 360 center, that baby is nice. The Beta 250 is a nice upgrade too, go with that one.


I wouldnt worry about exact match, they will be pretty close.


Caser:

If you like Polks thata a good choice, Infinity is generally a little cleaner sounding, but Polk has its own characteristics that some people love.


That HK 130 is also intriguing, HK makes great sounding units.


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## HT Jake

This has been a great thread. I was leaning towards getting a HTIB because of the ease, but I've changed my mind. It doesn't seem too hard to piece together a considerably better system.

My question is what's the best receiver to get for under $400, assuming I'll be using either the 150s or the B1s; a corresponding center; and a Dayton sub?


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## bigcat

Thanks John for the valuable info shared here. I was also about to order the onkyo system until I read this.


I have decided to go w/ 4 infinity 150s.


I have a couple of questions:


o) The alpha center mentioned few posts above from Vanns for $89 appears to be Alpha, but not the Alpha 37C (more expensive) recommended by John. I assume the 37C is significantly better. However, how does the "simple" alpha compares to the primus C25?


o) I am a total newbie with this. Since I now will be ordering separate components, I assume I need to order speaker wires.. I have seen elsewhere posts referring to different kinds of wires, like center channel wires, subwoofer wires, surround wires. Could anybody summarize what I need to get as far as wires?


o) I figure most people do wall installation of speakers, however I prefer stands. Does anybody know of a good set of stands to put the 150s on? Appreciate any recommendations...


Thanks for the help folks!!!


----------



## svadas

Quote:

_Originally posted by bigcat_
*


o) I figure most people do wall installation of speakers, however I prefer stands. Does anybody know of a good set of stands to put the 150s on? Appreciate any recommendations...
*
Since we are keeping it cheap, I've used cinder blocks before with great results as they are solid and heavy.


----------



## millerwill

o) I figure most people do wall installation of speakers, however I prefer stands. Does anybody know of a good set of stands to put the 150s on? Appreciate any recommendations...


Thanks for the help folks!!! [/b][/quote]



See racksandstands.com for a wide variety of simple, but very appropriate, stands.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

I got some tall stands on Ebay, brand new, for about 60 bucks shipped.


Just search ebay a bit, and these stands that are something like 31-35 inches, black, in wood, will show up. Bid on them 


They arent superstable because they are tall, but the price is right, as long as your somewhat careful, you will be fine.


----------



## bigcat

ok guys thanks for the feedback on stands... any input on my other two questions.. Thanks!!

Quote:

_Originally posted by bigcat_
*

o) The alpha center mentioned few posts above from Vanns for $89 appears to be Alpha, but not the Alpha 37C (more expensive) recommended by John. I assume the 37C is significantly better. However, how does the "simple" alpha compares to the primus C25?


o) I am a total newbie with this. Since I now will be ordering separate components, I assume I need to order speaker wires.. I have seen elsewhere posts referring to different kinds of wires, like center channel wires, subwoofer wires, surround wires. Could anybody summarize what I need to get as far as wires?
*


----------



## AustPwrs

I'm also a newbie and was going to go the Onkyo 770 route based on the rave reviews on this site. However, thanks to the advice of John, a former member named Artisan, and some of my friends, I gave components a shot.


After listening to some speakers, and comparing it to the Onkyo 770, there was no question that I would go for separates. I know I've spent more than I intended on doing, since you can get the Onkyo HTiB for around $350, but I am much happier with my current set up. Besides, I couldn't pass up on the Infinity Primus deal.


What did I end up getting?


Infinity Primus 250 x 2 $ 180

Infinity Primus C25 $ 60

Infinity Primus 150 x2 $ 110

Onkyo 601 $ 250


For a grand total of $600. Now all I need is a Dayton sub, and I'll have a considerably better system for $200 more than the MSRP of the Onkyo 770. Plus, these speakers look so much better. 


Now, what to do about the DVD player? 


Oh, what have I got myself into? 


Cheers. My mojo is finally back!!!


----------



## millerwill

bigcat: re wire, just use 14 or 16 gauge speaker wire, or lamp cord type wire, from Home Depot.


----------



## bigcat

Thanks miller. So its basically the same type of wire to connect all components I guess

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*bigcat: re wire, just use 14 or 16 gauge speaker wire, or lamp cord type wire, from Home Depot.*


----------



## aces

If I may ask, where are people finding the C25's for 

CompUSA was out of everything, but am on my way to have CC price match 4 150's and 2 250's, and was told last night they would also do the free pair of 150's on top of that! Not counting my chickens, but am going to make sure I go back to the same sales guy.


Thanks for the info. so far and in advance.


----------



## HT Jake

aces--

What is the deal that you have found? I'm looking to do a similar set up and I'm always looking to get the best price.

I'm also curious about the center channnel comparisons.

Thanks everyone,

Jake


----------



## aces

Jake - well, no go on the deal I was trying for (trying to get Circuit City to PM the compusa.com price). Turns out the guy who told me they could do it yesterday wasn't very high up the food chain. They decided the compusa prices were below their cost. I may try another store and will report back if I have any luck.


More info. on the 150's and 250's can be found in a thread under "Speakers". Good luck!


----------



## Megalith

Well, I ended up journeying to CompUSA, and they had three C25s and 3 150s left.


I picked up the C25 and I haven't been as satisfied with a purchase in a long time as I've had with this one. You don't have to have golden ears or anything to realize that the sound is much clearer and distinct than the Onkyo POS speakers.


Unfotunately, my Samsung 3071 WHDTV is somehow introducing interference to the C25. When I turn the set on, you can hear a buzzing noise emit from the speaker. I have no idea why this is happening, because I've checked the wires to see if there was some crossing going on, but the only way the sound would go away is if I picked up the center channel, away from the TV. I've had the TV for about a year, and new problems seem to surface every month. I'd gladly take a sledgehammer to its screen if I could afford a set that wasn't so screwed.


----------



## bigcat

John,


I went to CC and saw they have the Infi Center Beta C250 @ $212, this is $40 cheaper than the Alpha 37C.


Is this Beta model better than the 37C? and will it go well with 4 Primus 150s?


Thanks


----------



## jkbird

given the minimal price difference right now between the 160's and the 250's would 4 250's work? add the alpha 37c, digital receiver, dayton sub. any thoughts?


----------



## Megalith

Well, I don't think 250s will work very well as surrounds.


Surrounds are meant to be elevated 2-3 ft. above ear level. Don't think that would be too practical with 250s.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by Megalith_
*Well, I don't think 250s will work very well as surrounds.


Surrounds are meant to be elevated 2-3 ft. above ear level. Don't think that would be too practical with 250s.*
Well it depends on your surround strategy, theres 2 schools of thought.


I setup my surround to seamlessly have all the speakers at the same height. THis is a tremendous bonus for multichannel music (DVD-Audio and SACD) as well as stereo music multiplexed to all 5 channels ( I do this alot).


Some say this isnt ideal for movies, and that could be the case. But for concert DVDs, I love this setup.


In other words, I would rather have great sounding music than a perfect movie experience. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by bigcat_
*John,


I went to CC and saw they have the Infi Center Beta C250 @ $212, this is $40 cheaper than the Alpha 37C.


Is this Beta model better than the 37C? and will it go well with 4 Primus 150s?


Thanks*
If your gonna spend 200+ bucks, then get one with the midrange driver.

Does the Alpha have the midrange?


----------



## millerwill

I asked this question over in the 'Primus thread' but will also ask it here. Like many of you, I bought the Onkyo 770 HTiB and have now replaced the speakers with Primus'--great move, and thanks to John et al for bringing this to my attention. I'm now thinking about the receiver, model # HTR-520, of the 770 system. It's OK so far as I can tell, at least for my purposes (I have a very hard time hearing much difference in receivers, unless they are REALLY terrible, while for speakers it is of course 'night and day'), but I have been very confused about the specs. The 520 is spec'ed at 130 wts/ch, 8 Ohms, .08% THD. But when one looks up Onkyo's regular AVR's--the 502, 602, 702--they are spec'ed only at 75, 85, and 100 wt/ch, with all other parameters the same. The 502 looks like it should be comparable to the 520, but the 602 and 702 are clearly much more expensive. ????


To try to understand this, I called Onkyo support. The guy I talked to said that the 520 did indeed produce 130 wts/ch (what else could he say, I suppose), but that the 502, 602, and 702 had more features, and moreover they were 'THX certified'. Does this make sense to anyone? Is the 520 roughly on a par with the 502? Any other insight? Tx much!


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

whats the weight of the HTR520?


----------



## bigcat

JohnR_IN_LA,


which receiver would you choose between the pana SA-XR50 and onkyo's 770 receiver?


thanks


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*whats the weight of the HTR520?*
It's about 28 or 29 lbs, almost identical to the 502.


----------



## svadas

No, it's got to be closer to 20 or 21 pounds at most.


Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*It's about 28 or 29 lbs, almost identical to the 502.*


----------



## millerwill

svadas: You are CORRECT. I just looked back at the Onkyo website: the 520 is 21.4 lbs; the 502 is 22.5, the 602 30, and the 702 33.5.


----------



## cholly

I have an Onkyo HTS-760, and have read the comments in this forum re: speakers. As a result, I'm considering a new Center channel speaker to improve clarity. My HT system is n a small room, so I'm not looking to replace all speakers. Circuit City here has the Infinity C25 for $162.50 this week. I don't have Compusa in my area, and no other Infinity retailers. Another local store that I deal with is a Paradigm dealer, so I'm also considering the Paridigm CC-170. The CC-270 would be nice, but physically too large for my installation. Any recommendations?


----------



## mayhew

John, ain't this fun???

I started out with the HTS-770, hooked it all up with 14g wire, monsters for RCAs etc. etc. Turned it on and was a bit disappointed (worse sounding than my Bose set that I got as a gift 5 years ago). So I took the plunge and decided to step up a bit. For this setup (6.1 since the wiring is already there):

Denon 2805

Axiom M22ti (lr)

Axiom VT100 (c)

Axiom QS4 (r)


What might be a good matching sub? Thinking about the hsu stf-2, but would the dayton be enough? Can you never have a good enough sub?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by mayhew_
*John, ain't this fun???

I started out with the HTS-770, hooked it all up with 14g wire, monsters for RCAs etc. etc. Turned it on and was a bit disappointed (worse sounding than my Bose set that I got as a gift 5 years ago). So I took the plunge and decided to step up a bit. For this setup (6.1 since the wiring is already there):

Denon 2805

Axiom M22ti (lr)

Axiom VT100 (c)

Axiom QS4 (r)


What might be a good matching sub? Thinking about the hsu stf-2, but would the dayton be enough? Can you never have a good enough sub?*
You can never have a good enough sub. I've upgraded mine 3 times, and its "adequete" now. I have a 12 inch Infinity with room correction and a 500 watt digital amp.


Very nice setup BTW


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*svadas: You are CORRECT. I just looked back at the Onkyo website: the 520 is 21.4 lbs; the 502 is 22.5, the 602 30, and the 702 33.5.*
Go with the 30 pounder 

My single biggest upgrade, after the speakers, was upgrading from the Onkyo HT-500 receiver to a used 33 lb Yamaha RXV-995. Huge difference!


Or check out the digitals, where weight isnt as important


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by bigcat_
*JohnR_IN_LA,


which receiver would you choose between the pana SA-XR50 and onkyo's 770 receiver?


thanks*
Go with the consistent digital power: SA-XR50


----------



## millerwill

JohnR: Thanks to your cluing me (and others) in, I now have replaced my Onkyo 770 speakers with a Primus set (C25, 2 160's as fronts, and 2 140's as surrounds); it has made an enormous improvement in the sound, and seems quite adequate in my midsize family room (converted master bedroom, 18'x14', 8.5' ceiling).


In thinking about an AVR upgrade, it has been suggested that since the Primus' are relatively bright, that it would be best to match them with a 'warm' receiver, such as a Harmon Kardon. The HK AVR 630, rated at 75 wts/ch, is very pricey; I haven't seen it listed for less than $700. How do the Denon's (e.g., 2105, 2805), Onkyo's (602,702), and very popular Pioneer 1014 rank on the 'warmness' scale? Or do you think all makes any sense anyway?


----------



## svadas

Given that you can get the Pioneer for $350, it's really a no brainer. I have a couple year old Elite model and I'd say it's definately on the warmer side of things. I do not have any idea about the newer models, but pound per pounds receivers are more similar than different really. Especially if the Pioneer is really a rebadged Elite, those Elite models have been tested in a magazine and proven their wattage ratings to be accurate. You cannot say the same thing about Denon anymore though.


Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*


In thinking about an AVR upgrade, it has been suggested that since the Primus' are relatively bright, that it would be best to match them with a 'warm' receiver, such as a Harmon Kardon. The HK AVR 630, rated at 75 wts/ch, is very pricey; I haven't seen it listed for less than $700. How do the Denon's (e.g., 2105, 2805), Onkyo's (602,702), and very popular Pioneer 1014 rank on the 'warmness' scale? Or do you think all makes any sense anyway?*


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Svadas is right on. A 30+ lb Pioneer 1014 would be what I would lean to at 300-425 pricepoint.


At 200-250 dollar pricepoint, dont worry about bright/warm, just try to get decent power to all 5 channels. I would go for digital. like the Panasonic.


----------



## BBretz

While most of you guys are right, I think some of you are missing a few points about why someone would want to buy a HTIB.


For one, convienance.

Some people don't want to shop around all day nor do they have the patience to put together a system.


Another thing is price and availibilty.

People want to go into a store, actually see the unit they will buy, touch it, hear it and then be able to take it home right away. Not everybody has the internet or wants to shop online.


I say this because I was trying to help a friend get a good surround setup and I have heard good speakers like Dynaudio, Quads, Paridigm and a host of others and I happen to own some Ascends which are pretty good. Buy it didn't matter to him about high end sound at this point, He wanted to get something right now when we went out shopping at a decent price for a decent product, which I think we did.


I listened to the system after we set t up and tweaked it a little and it sounded pretty good for what it is. Sure the center doesn't have ultimate clarity and the reciever isn't pushing a really high current, but the sound was good enough in his space the way we set it up to make him happy about his purchase. He knew that we could upgrade th speakers later and improve the sound and he also knew that separates would make for a better sound solution, but overall we were both pleased with what he got.

And for the money he was pleased with his purchase that he got locally the same day for $425.


Remember, there is always something better out there, but sometimes you have to stop and enjoy what you get and have, even if you know it's not the best, at least for a while.


----------



## setherd

Thanks to everyone in this thread for posting both positively and negatively.


I got some close out speakers at compusa tonight.

2x infinity primus C150's $60 each and a primus C25 center for $85 (their last one, the floor model) so $205 plus tax 


now I just need a receiver and a subwoofer.

I'm looking at the Dayton 10 inch sub for $100

and a referb Panasonic SA-XR25 for about $150


I'd like to go higher end on the receiver but I'll wait till I can appreciate one more. I'm not going surround sound till I figure out where I want my rear speakers to go.


so that would give me a center, 2 fronts, a sub, and receiver for $455 about the same as a onkyo 770, which I had almost bought a couple weeks ago. (yes I know the onkyo has surround speakes and is a 6.1 receiver)


----------



## aces

Count me as another convert. First-time system: 2 - 150's, 2 - 250's, C-25, Dayton 10" and Panny XR50 (plus 2 more 150's for a small living room system). Infinity's all CompUSA price-matched at Circuit City.


Thanks for the insight.


----------



## caser85

Quote:

_Originally posted by aces_
*Count me as another convert. First-time system: 2 - 150's, 2 - 250's, C-25, Dayton 10" and Panny XR50 (plus 2 more 150's for a small living room system).
*
So how does the system sound so far? I'm thinking about getting the exact same setup, except I might get 150s for the fronts rather than 250s (to save money). Do you like the Panasonic?


----------



## jermy4

My question for all of you that went with separate speakers and receivers: how do you like your new setup?


When I bought the Onkyo speakers I was never really happy with them. I'm in love with my Athena setup. They just seem to sound better every time I listen to them


----------



## millerwill

I bought an Onkyo 770 HIiB back in August and was very pleased; it was so much better than the TV speakers, and I still think that it is a good deal for the price. However, when I first discovered this thread, it did ring true, particularly that the center speaker was rather muddy. (Even my wife, who is deaf in one ear, commented on this.) So I went out and got a Primus C25 for $89 at ComUSA, and was astounded at how much better things sounded. This motivated me to get 2 Primus 160's for the L/R fronts ($80 ea) and 2 140's ($90 for the pair) for surrounds. This also made a very noticeable improvement in the crispness and clarity of the sound (though replacing the center had the most dramatic effect). I am still using the Onkyo 520 AVR and the subwoofer, for they seem satisfactory (at least for the present) in my medium size room (17'x14', 8.5 ceiling); I also use one of the Onkyo surrounds as the center back. I experimented with leaving out the center-back and just going 5.1, but I actually do like the fullness that the center-back adds.


I am truly delighted with the sound that has resulted. If one wanted to keep the extra cost to a minimum, I could recommend just replacing the Onkyo center speaker with the C25 (or something). In the future, of course, I may buy a better AVR and subwoofer, but that doesn't seem critical.


----------



## aces

Couldn't say yet - I expect the Dayton on Monday and the XR50 on Tues.! Since it's my first-time system I'm sure I'll be happy, but I'll let you know of anything special that comes to mind.


Re: the separate speaker vs HTIB debate, it should be noted that even though I feel I got decent to good deals on everything I bought, I still ended up spending significantly more than the deals on the Onkyo systems.


Speakers: (150's - 2 X $59, 250's - 2X $99, C25 - $88) = $404 + tax.

Sub: $99 + $12 shipping = $111

XR50: $223 + $12 shipping = $235


Allin a ways from the Onkyo's - but I expect the difference to be noticeable too.


----------



## JnC

I have a setup very similar to aces:


Panny XR70

Primus 160'sx2, 150'sx3, C25, PS12 sub


I came from a 770 system. I'm hearing more detail in movies and more slam in music. Sound effects now have a spectrum of sound instead of a 40Hz rumble.


I think separates are the way to go. If you buy a family of speakers you can be assured of still getting a consistency of sound. The Onkyo bundled speakers are matched to a price point, not to each other, with the center and sub the weakest points in the system. As the center is where 70-80% of movie sound resides, you don't want to cut corners there.


For $370-500, it's very difficult to approach the baseline functionality of the Onkyo, but for $300-400 more the difference is substantial. At price points higher than this, it's difficult to justify the sonic bang for the buck.


Regards,

JnC


----------



## caser85

Quote:

_Originally posted by aces_
*Couldn't say yet - I expect the Dayton on Monday and the XR50 on Tues.! Since it's my first-time system I'm sure I'll be happy, but I'll let you know of anything special that comes to mind.

*
I bet you can't wait to get everything! I'm waiting for a couple of eBay auctions to end before I start getting my stuff. Let me know when you get everything set up!


----------



## jkbird

pulled the plug. here it goes pr 250s-160.00 pr 150s-100.00 dayton sub 99.87 beta c360 260.00 panny sa-xr50 229.95 i need a drink props to john and all other contibutorsto this thread happy holidays


----------



## HT Jake

What commerce searching websites have you guys been using to find some of these deals? I've checked out pricegrabber.com (which is normally pretty good for other items), but it hasn't given me some of the deals you guys have mentioned.

Thanks,

Jake


----------



## setherd

froogle.com


----------



## mflaster

Here's what I ended up buying:
 Alpha 37C 3-way center from Crutchfield for $230 shipped (with a coupon) - but they're gone now.
 Alpha 20's for my fronts, I got them off ebay from HarmanKardon for $102.50/pr + $24 shipping.
 HKS 2 - a cheap pair of surrounds (with a 4" woofer, at least they're rated down to 80hz), including nice wall brackets, for $28 + $10 shipping.
The Onkyo 602 receiver, with automatic parametric EQ, for $307 shipped from ecost.[/list=1]

So I spent $369.50, including shipping, for the speakers in a 5.0 system. (Note no sub right now.) If the surrounds aren't too bad, I'll add another pair, so it'll be $400 for 7.0. $700 total including the receiver.


I'm not sure if I'll even add a sub. This is mainly for watching TV/Tivo after the kids have gone to sleep. For big/loud movies, I'd watch those in the basement in the dedicated theater.


Mike


----------



## caser85

Man I can't believe it. The Circuit City in my area has open box Alpha 20s for $49 each. The only thing is they have one at that price, but if I buy a another pair with the single, they will give me that price for those too. So I'll have to buy 3. Now I just have to work out the money with the wife!


Do you think this is a good deal? Do you think I could sell the third one on eBay and make my money back?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Do you have a center channel yet?

If not, use the 3rd one as your center channel


----------



## caser85

Hmm. That's a good idea. Maybe I would just keep it. I'm not sure though. I want the 37C.


----------



## pjohearne

Guys thanks for all the info. I have been debating configuring a surrond sound system for a while but I am afraid I am a total newbie. My big dilemma is how important to the setup is the receiver. I see all the post about the panny saxr50 but i notice non of the major retailers carry it. I wen to a custom sound reatailer today and the had a Integra and klipsch setup that was awesome but ran around 3 grand. I can not justify the cost however I was wondering what the dropoff would be with some of the ideas setups discussed here. My hope is to buy the whole system for under 1000 . This setup would be primarily for movies and tv watching. Any help/suggestions would be appreciated.


Thanks


Pat


----------



## millerwill

Pjohearne: I would recommend the great sales on the Infinity Primus speakers and the Onkyo 602 AVR for $299.


----------



## svadas

What are you looking for? 5.1, 6.1 7.1 set-up? They are giving those Infinities away, and you really can't do better for the price. What does your room size look like? Would you be willing to start with a partial set-up and then add the rest of the speaker over time, or do you have to have it all at once. I'd say the receiver is important, but there are a lot of good options at different price points.

Quote:

_Originally posted by pjohearne_
*Guys thanks for all the info. I have been debating configuring a surrond sound system for a while but I am afraid I am a total newbie. My big dilemma is how important to the setup is the receiver. I see all the post about the panny saxr50 but i notice non of the major retailers carry it. I wen to a custom sound reatailer today and the had a Integra and klipsch setup that was awesome but ran around 3 grand. I can not justify the cost however I was wondering what the dropoff would be with some of the ideas setups discussed here. My hope is to buy the whole system for under 1000 . This setup would be primarily for movies and tv watching. Any help/suggestions would be appreciated.


Thanks


Pat*


----------



## pjohearne

Regarding my requiremets I was looking for a 6.1 setup and a partial package would work. Basically all I have currently is my HDTV. The room I my tv is in is pretty big 10 X 30. I have been considering buying the receiver, center speaker, front speakers and a subwoofer and adding the back channels later. I need to figure out a receiver that works now and when I add the rear channels. any advice would be appreciated .


thanks


Pat


----------



## millerwill

A suggestion to Onkyo 770 owners who have upgraded:


Like many of you who bought the Onkyo 770 HTiB, I have taken advantage of the Infinity Primus sales to upgrade: a C25 center, 2 160's for the mains, and 2 140's for the surrounds, and am staying with the 770's AVR (Onkyo 520) and subwoofer (a 10"-er). Since the 140's were sold in pairs, I had no speaker for the center-back surround and at first just went 5.1. Then I used one of the Onkyo surrounds to go 6.1 and liked it better.


Now I have used the old Onkyo CENTER speaker as my back surround--and it is GREAT. With the 2 140 Primus for the left and right surrounds, the Onkyo center for the center back surround really fills out the surround in spectacular fashion.


So this is something some of you might like to try.


----------



## aces

Well, finally got the last piece of the puzzle in the mail yesterday for my new system (Primus speakers, Dayton sub and XR50 receiver). After hooking everything up and less than 2 hours to play around, my initial thoughts:


1. The sound is excellent - clarity is incredible. No previous system to compare it to so anything would have been an improvement, but am able to hear things on cd's and dvd's that typically only show up with headphones. The Dayton sub adds a ton - much more full sound than the 250's alone. Not entirely surprising, but I didn't think it'd be quite so night/day.


2. As discussed in other threads, I too was amazed at the "cheapness" of the clips for the surround/center speaker wires on the XR50. I didn't have any trouble getting my 16G wires into the holes, but once closed, the weight of the wires themselves were enough for most of them to pull out! I'll have to buy some posts to take care of this annoyance.


3. Also as discussed in some other threads, the XR50's "Party" mode got the best of me for a few minutes. Hit the wrong button on the remote and the sound toggles to "Party" mode, which takes the sound out of the center channel. Between this and the center speaker wire inadvertently coming out of the clip at the same time, it made for a frustrating few minutes.


Overall, I think I'll be extremely happy with the system. The annoyances (so far anyways, and the two I mentioned are the only ones I've seen other people mention) are very easy to take care of.


Looking forward to some time to play around and enjoy it!


PS: I realize this thread is for HTIB's, but caser85 asked for my initial impressions.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*A suggestion to Onkyo 770 owners who have upgraded:



Now I have used the old Onkyo CENTER speaker as my back surround--and it is GREAT. With the 2 140 Primus for the left and right surrounds, the Onkyo center for the center back surround really fills out the surround in spectacular fashion.


So this is something some of you might like to try.*
Dont you get this wierd tonal quality out of that one speaker, that conflicts with your other speakers?


I found the onkyos clashed with my Infinitys, messing up the whole soundstage.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by aces_
*


3. Also as discussed in some other threads, the XR50's "Party" mode got the best of me for a few minutes. Hit the wrong button on the remote and the sound toggles to "Party" mode, which takes the sound out of the center channel. Between this and the center speaker wire inadvertently coming out of the clip at the same time, it made for a frustrating few minutes.*
Hah yea beware of the soundfields like "partymode" on all receivers, most of them are crap.


They usually have one or two clean soundfields that I like. My Pioneer has one called "5 Channel Stereo" which very cleanly brings a stereo signal to all 5 channels. Thats the only soundfield I generally use.


If you can find one or two soundfields you like, use them. If you cant, just dont worry about it. Maybe tape over that one button.


--------------------

About the clips: yea thats a pain in the butt. You have to find a way to loop the cables and take the strain off the connectors. Maybe you already have.


----------



## aces

I guess I owe the XR50 an apology re: my complaints about the surround/center wire clips. While I still think they feel a little cheap, they work just fine for 16g. wire as long as you have at least 1/2" of wire exposed. Once I stripped a little more than I tried initially, they locked in just fine.


I can see where you would have a tough time getting larger than 16g in the holes, but 16g should be no problem.


----------



## korndawg

I'm a noobie that was too convinced on buying the Onkyo 770 but after reading this, I may decide to piece together a system with your advice. I want a 5.1 system for home theatre but I'm also a huge music lover. The system will be in an apartment so I'm prolly wanting the bookshelf systems. What do you recommend for a complete system in the range of $500 - $600? I've read many good things about the Onkyo SR502 receiver, so thats what I'm leaning towards for a receiver. As for the deals at CompUSA, theres not one withing 2 hours of me, but there is a BB  Just looking for best bang for the buck. Thanks!!!


----------



## setherd

read this whole thread! many good suggestions.

I used a c25 main and 2 c150 fronts, I have a dayton 10in subwoffer on order with a panasonic xr25 receiver its about $500 shiiped but it's not 5.1 I have to add 2 more speakers for that


----------



## svadas

You could watch Best Buy for when they run another sale on the Athena bookshelf speakers for $50 each. That's assuming you have a Best Buy in your area. Some on-line stores have them, but with the holidays they all seem out of stock at the moment. Then you have that $100 Dayton sub and the receiver of your choice.


Athena 5 @ $50 = $250

Dayton = $100

Receiver = $200

___________________

Total = $550


Quote:

_Originally posted by korndawg_
*I'm a noobie that was too convinced on buying the Onkyo 770 but after reading this, I may decide to piece together a system with your advice. I want a 5.1 system for home theatre but I'm also a huge music lover. The system will be in an apartment so I'm prolly wanting the bookshelf systems. What do you recommend for a complete system in the range of $500 - $600? I've read many good things about the Onkyo SR502 receiver, so thats what I'm leaning towards for a receiver. As for the deals at CompUSA, theres not one withing 2 hours of me, but there is a BB  Just looking for best bang for the buck. Thanks!!!*


----------



## korndawg

I ended up buying so 2 Onix LRS speakers and 1 LRS CRS center for now. Soon to be buying the Dayton sub too . Still very undecided on what receiver to buy, I'm leaning towards the Panasonic XR50. So far, I've spent more $$ that i had originally planned, but I was adviced that this would be a wiser purchase that the Onkyo 770.


----------



## indiesound

ok guys, oh boy i hate to rain on JohnR's parade here, but it's my humble opinion that JohnR here has been giving the wrong advice.


You can do EVEN BETTER than what John is suggesting for $600.


Personally, if you are just starting out, it is best to start with a 2 or 2.1 system. It is far better to have a great 2.1 system than an inferior 5.1 system.


I'd recommend an HK AVR 130 also or a lower level (but stil HT-quality) Onkyo receiver. Either will run around $300. (try onecall.com)


Then purchase a pair of Axiom M2's for $280 or M3's for $300 or Ascend speakers for a little more. Spend the rest on cables. You'll be amazed at what you can get for this price.


The reason i suggest this is that you are STARTING out with high grad components TO KEEP. Then you'll be ready for the room shaking bass of an STF-1 for $299.


you'll be impressed with your infinity's, but you will probably want to upgrade. This will be quite the pain to upgrade ALL of your speakers, your receiver AND even your subwoofer. You might as well start with quality components.


Later on, you can upgrade your mains and use your starter pair as rears.


But honestly, even an HK AVR 130 and a pair of M3's would be an excellent start. The only caveat i have here, is that i admit too that you get a lot of bang for the buck with the Rocket 5.1 package for $699.


----------



## Wes Tausend

I don't really know about the speakers included with the Onkyo 760 etc., but I can recommend the system based solely on the receiver.


I bought a couple of speakerless re-furb HT-510 recievers that normally come in the HTIB setup. I paid $149 each but when I first saw them they were only $127. The price alone for any decent 100 watt 6.1 would have been reason enough but there is *way* more than first meets the eye.

*FIRST:* The 510 receiver is basically a 701 amplifier in a 501 chassis. It's like an American V-8 stuffed into a Honda Civic. It's missing a few extraneous features and rear input/outputs but has extraordinary snoot in it's wattage compared to the 501 or 601.

*SECOND:* An independant, well known, consumer testing publication rates the Onkyo 701 as *# 1* . This would not be a biased, unprofessional review, as most are.


Logically, the Onkyo 510 receiver will give it's owner best in class performance in the $1000 catagory. The HTIB speakers are freebies for those that want more and will eventually upgrade speakers. The amp won't need upgrading ...except for maybe those people that also insist on paying over $6 for a six-pak of beer too.


----------



## jermy4

You must be crazy. The 601 & 701 will smoke that HT-510 receiver. Power ratings are not everything. You will see some people who tried to drive tower speakers with that receiver and had problems, upgraded to a 601 or 701 and they drove their low sensitivity speakers better than the included receiver.


They are designed differently. The included receiver is not a high current amplifier like the 601 & 701.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by indiesound_
*ok guys, oh boy i hate to rain on JohnR's parade here, but it's my humble opinion that JohnR here has been giving the wrong advice.


You can do EVEN BETTER than what John is suggesting for $600.


Personally, if you are just starting out, it is best to start with a 2 or 2.1 system. It is far better to have a great 2.1 system than an inferior 5.1 system.


I'd recommend an HK AVR 130 also or a lower level (but stil HT-quality) Onkyo receiver. Either will run around $300. (try onecall.com)


Then purchase a pair of Axiom M2's for $280 or M3's for $300 or Ascend speakers for a little more. Spend the rest on cables. You'll be amazed at what you can get for this price.


The reason i suggest this is that you are STARTING out with high grad components TO KEEP. Then you'll be ready for the room shaking bass of an STF-1 for $299.


you'll be impressed with your infinity's, but you will probably want to upgrade. This will be quite the pain to upgrade ALL of your speakers, your receiver AND even your subwoofer. You might as well start with quality components.


Later on, you can upgrade your mains and use your starter pair as rears.


But honestly, even an HK AVR 130 and a pair of M3's would be an excellent start. The only caveat i have here, is that i admit too that you get a lot of bang for the buck with the Rocket 5.1 package for $699.*
Wrong advice? You have very similar advice to mine: get real speakers. Why not just suggest 2.1 as another good option, as opposed to the only right option?


We are talking about getting HTIB people better speakers. Telling them they now have to "get their mind around" reverting to stereo, is asking alot.


I do agree 2.1 is another fine option, especially as an incremental step towards 5.1. I don't expect many HTIB buyers to actually follow that advice though, I suspect they want to get theater surround sound going ASAP.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by jermy4_
*You must be crazy. The 601 & 701 will smoke that HT-510 receiver. Power ratings are not everything. You will see some people who tried to drive tower speakers with that receiver and had problems, upgraded to a 601 or 701 and they drove their low sensitivity speakers better than the included receiver.


They are designed differently. The included receiver is not a high current amplifier like the 601 & 701.*
Agreed. Compare the weight of the HT-510 receiver, to the 601 and 701.

The 601 and 701 weigh roughly twice as much, and put out roughly 3-5 times the power.


My HT-500 Onkyo (earlier version of the HT-510) choked on my floor standing speakers, they couldnt even power them adequetely.


----------



## indiesound

Quote:

_Originally posted by Wes Tausend_
*I don't really know about the speakers included with the Onkyo 760 etc., but I can recommend the system based solely on the receiver.


I bought a couple of speakerless re-furb HT-510 recievers that normally come in the HTIB setup. I paid $149 each but when I first saw them they were only $127. The price alone for any decent 100 watt 6.1 would have been reason enough but there is way more than first meets the eye.


FIRST: The 510 receiver is basically a 701 amplifier in a 501 chassis. It's like an American V-8 stuffed into a Honda Civic. It's missing a few extraneous features and rear input/outputs but has extraordinary snoot in it's wattage compared to the 501 or 601.


SECOND: An independant, well known, consumer testing publication rates the Onkyo 701 as # 1 . This would not be a biased, unprofessional review, as most are.


Logically, the Onkyo 510 receiver will give it's owner best in class performance in the $1000 catagory. The HTIB speakers are freebies for those that want more and will eventually upgrade speakers. The amp won't need upgrading ...except for maybe those people that also insist on paying over $6 for a six-pak of beer too.*
I agree this quote is a freaking joke. Watt power rating DOES NOT EQUAL HORSEPOWER.


The comparison is not similar. I had a piece of junk rack stereo system in the late 80's with 100 watts. It sounded awful..


Try the Harmon Kardon receiver series and listen to 65 watts per channel. That thing will BLOW AWAY a similar "700 watt" Panasonic HTIB system.


This is like buying a 65 inch Apex bigscreen when you'd get a much better product with a 46 inch Hitachi.


----------



## indiesound

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Wrong advice? You have very similar advice to mine: get real speakers. Why not just suggest 2.1 as another good option, as opposed to the only right option?


We are talking about getting HTIB people better speakers. Telling them they now have to "get their mind around" reverting to stereo, is asking alot.


I do agree 2.1 is another fine option, especially as an incremental step towards 5.1. I don't expect many HTIB buyers to actually follow that advice though, I suspect they want to get theater surround sound going ASAP.*
i agree that even this is significantly better than a HTIB setup. But as i said, you'll end up needing the replace every single thing (receiver, all five speakers AND the sub).


It's better IMO to just purchase incrementally. It's like buying a new Hyundai Accent (which is a huge improvement over having no car), when you'll need to replace the whole thing to get something decent.


I tell you, get anyone, and i mean practically anyone a good ascend or axiom with hsu stf-1 and they'll clearly see the benefits. And we're talking about $1K total here. ($600 plus $300 receiver and DVD/CD player).


Otherwise, i'd just tell them to spend no more than $150 to tidy them over until they can save the $1K.


----------



## willx1

Are these any good?? http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.proc...ductTabDetails


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

You can do better than those JBLs, they may suffice for rears, but try to get a full 5 1/4 inch mid-bass driver, instead of the crappy little 4 inch ones.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by indiesound_
*i agree that even this is significantly better than a HTIB setup. But as i said, you'll end up needing the replace every single thing (receiver, all five speakers AND the sub).


It's better IMO to just purchase incrementally. It's like buying a new Hyundai Accent (which is a huge improvement over having no car), when you'll need to replace the whole thing to get something decent.


I tell you, get anyone, and i mean practically anyone a good ascend or axiom with hsu stf-1 and they'll clearly see the benefits. And we're talking about $1K total here. ($600 plus $300 receiver and DVD/CD player).


Otherwise, i'd just tell them to spend no more than $150 to tidy them over until they can save the $1K.*


Actually Infinitys work real well for upgrading. Because they are low coloration speakers, they dont "pollute" the soundfield of better speakers.


I know this from experience. Several times I have had to use my Infinitys to substitute for one or 2 of my main speakers, And I am always amazed how well they blend.


----------



## Wes Tausend

Quote:

_Originally posted by jermy4_
*You must be crazy. The 601 & 701 will smoke that HT-510 receiver. Power ratings are not everything. You will see some people who tried to drive tower speakers with that receiver and had problems, upgraded to a 601 or 701 and they drove their low sensitivity speakers better than the included receiver.


They are designed differently. The included receiver is not a high current amplifier like the 601 & 701.*
Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Agreed. Compare the weight of the HT-510 receiver, to the 601 and 701.

The 601 and 701 weigh roughly twice as much, and put out roughly 3-5 times the power.


My HT-500 Onkyo (earlier version of the HT-510) choked on my floor standing speakers, they couldnt even power them adequetely.*
Quote:

_Originally posted by indiesound_
*I agree this quote is a freaking joke. Watt power rating DOES NOT EQUAL HORSEPOWER.


The comparison is not similar. I had a piece of junk rack stereo system in the late 80's with 100 watts. It sounded awful..


Try the Harmon Kardon receiver series and listen to 65 watts per channel. That thing will BLOW AWAY a similar "700 watt" Panasonic HTIB system.


This is like buying a 65 inch Apex bigscreen when you'd get a much better product with a 46 inch Hitachi.*
Sorry, guys, you missed the point here. My apologies to anyone who spent big bucks on a more expensive Onkyo or other brand receiver. If you did buy a more expensive receiver, take solace in the fact that you have more inputs/outputs and some other bells and whistles. But you will be hard pressed to ever beat the outright audio performance of a working, common Onkyo HTIB receiver if you can live with a few less outputs etc. Bang-for-the-buck at it's finest.


If somebody had trouble with their "tower speakers" then they either had defective speakers, had them hooked up incorrectly or they had a defective Onkyo amplifier (Remember, I bought a re-furb). Incidently, tower speakers often have they same innards as todays bookshelf or satellites. They are never significantly different other than the number of drivers and the tower wattage is generally spread between several drivers for similar audio levels to other speaker types. It's not rocket science by any means, but more marketing gimickry than anything. I know ...I know, the magazines tout the wonderfulness of these max $ sets. I have a premium bridge I'd like to sell some people. It's super heavy duty. It will take many heavy trucks with ease and ride smoother to boot. The secret is that the rivits are gold plated under the paint.


The high current H.C.P.S. was included on all Onkyo 701, 601, 501 and the 510. Rated amp sections varied but the 510 has identical specs to the 701. If you bother to look at the inner chassis, you can see the identical components. Why would Onkyo do this? Because it would cost more to redesign a new cheap HTIB amp than to fit a standard, off-the-shelf amp. These boards and their electronics are a very minor cost to manufacturers. The major expense is all design and marketing costs. So Onkyo saved money by putting a standard amp in their HTIB. Then why did they put in a 701 amp instead of a lower wattage 601 or 501? Because HTIB is absolutely the most competitive area of sales the last few years. People actually listen and compare one HTIB to the one next to it right in the store. They're all hooked up ready to blast the customer out of his socks in a huge 100,000 square foot store. To win means power and a lot of it. It's pure marketing. Nobody cranks them up to max once they get home unless they want to go deaf. But they do crank to max in the store and they had better sound good, including the speakers, even to the guy coming in the entrance 200 feet away. It's pure marketing, nothing less. Onkyo HTIB kicks butt here.


I used to work in electronics repair and there is a lot of smoke and mirrors in this business. People actually spend major amounts of cash for "super" audio cables when any roll of 16 guage zip cord will absolutely work just as good. As a matter of fact, the light guage wire included with systems is pretty adequate (keep in mind the all-important store demos). Do people really think manufacturers design high tech amps and stupidly cripple them with bad wire? Yes, apparently many people believe that. Duh. Only when frequencies increase to video requirements does cable design make a difference and even then 90% are overpriced since performance is very similar between any two video cables unless they are damaged. Some are more damage resistant, granted. I recommend that people rely heavily on unbiased, non-advertising consumer publications when buying electronics and accessories.


I agree that todays 65 inch Apex bigscreen is not equal to Hitachi or Toshiba. These same independant consumer publications will say this ...but you can see it for yourself in that same huge 100,000 square foot store spoken of earlier. Then, on the other hand, it's hard to beat the price of Apex if one can live with the compromises. And the Apex guy will be able to afford a new Apex , better-than-todays, Hitachi, Toshiba, Sony etc sooner. Nothing wrong with that.


I recommend that people take the B.S. in magazines and forums with a grain of salt and think (or re-think, as the case may be) for themselves.


----------



## svadas

From Onkyo's website:


702 = 33.5 #

602 = 30 #

502 = 22.5 #

501 = 19.6 #


Still think they are the same?


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by Wes Tausend_
*If you bother to look at the inner chassis, you can see the identical components.*
Can you provide some pictures or something to prove this? I find this incredibly hard to believe since they are so different in size and weight.


Don't get me wrong, that receiver has a really nice sound to it but it is not a powerhouse like the 601 or 701. When I mentioned someone having a hard time driving tower speakers it had nothing to do with the fact that they were towers and more to do with the low sensitivity of the speakers and the low impedance of the speakers causing stress on the receiver.


My dad has the 510 receiver that you are mentioning and I have the 601. I can tell you that they are quite a bit different ...


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

ye the weight difference has to do with the transformer, which directly affects the power.


The Onkyo HTIB receiver does not "kick butt", its has nice features but it has a weak power supply, which starts to starve once you put a load on it.


And Jeremy is right, it has nothing to do with what form factor the speakers are, it has to do with sensitivity and power requirements.

Also, more drivers and large coils take more power, plain and simple.


I can tell you from direct experience that the HT-500 choked on my tower Rocket RS-550 speakers. They started sounding strained and thin hooked up to the Onkyo.


I replaced the Onkyo HT-500 with an old 30 pound Yamaha, and the improvement was incredible.


I am sure the 30 pound Onkyo 602 above, would have improved the sound, just about as much.


----------



## HDTV_432

The 502 lists it's power as having 75W per channel.

The receiver with the HT-s770 lists it's wattage at 130W/channel.


Assuming Onkyo uses the same Wattage measuring devices (for integrety's sake) for all the receivers they manufacture, the receiver in the HTiB is _almost_ twice as powerful as the 502. Just because they have the same exterior, doesnt' mean they have the same interior. Don't judge a book (receiver) by it's cover. with the 55W/channel difference, it's obvious they aren't the same receiver.


Also, judging a receiver's power strictly by how much it weighs seems rather silly. If that's how you wanna play it, let me place some bricks inside my 1980 Kenwood receiver and I'll sell that to you for $1000 (free shipping). It weighs a TON, so it must be great!


JohnR, you've also mentioned much earlier in this thread, that your 'so-old-it's-no-longer-manufactured' Onkyo HT-500 receiver which was purchesed about 6-7 years ago doesnt' compete with 'todays better receivers'......well.....no s*it sherlock. I woudln't expect it to. (can you say 'apples and oranges'?) As you've already stated, it was underpowered for your power hungry speakers. Bringing it into this conversation seems totally pointless.


And as was I believe this threads original intent:

"Alternative ways to get surround sound with better quality components at the same price"

has yet to be proven. So far you've indicated ways to spend _more_ money on 2.1 systems, you have yet to provide ways to purchase a complete 6.1 system with a non-bargain-basement-generic sub at the same price of $450-$500. You've also quoted impossible-to-be-found prices for the items.


The bottom line:

Dollar for dollar, you simply can't (although you've tried) beat the sound/quality/quantity in the HT-s770 package, whether you care to admit it or not.


----------



## jermy4

I have a Panasonic SA-XR10 that I paid $129 for hooked up to a pair of Athena AS-B2s that I paid $125 for with a Dayton sub that I paid $99 for and it will destroy that HTIB in under a second.


More speakers does not mean better. That is one thing that I have learned since visiting these forums.


Give me the option of 6 muddy speakers and a boomy sub vs 2 crisp and clear speakers with an accurate sub and I'll take the later any day of the week.


The choice is yours ...


----------



## HDTV_432

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. 2.1 IS NOT SURROUND SOUND, i don't care how you slice it. To get the 4 more speakers you'll need to complete the set up, you'll have to spend $125 for the Center, and $180 (3x60) for the surrounds. you've already invested roughly $350, add to that $200, you've spent $550, wasted 2 weeks of your life for it to arrive after surfing the net for a couple of hours.


and just so you know, your reciever isn't even capeable of 6.1 surround. If you want that, you'll have to spend more than your already oversized budget.


Don't tell JohnR--your receiver only weighs a touch under 8 lbs :O


Again you're comparing two different systems using two different budgets.


Have you actually compared your piece-meal set up with this HTiB? One right after another comparison? saying it can 'Destroy" *shudder* *gasp* especially when you haven't done a side by side with any other HTiB is rather insane.


If you spend more, sure I'd expect better components, but again as was my last statement:


**Dollar for dollar**(note '**' for emphasis), you simply can't (although you've tried) beat the sound/quality/quantity in the HT-s770 package, whether you care to admit it or not.


----------



## jermy4

You just don't get it and I'm not going to argue with you. I had a 760 in my house and I kept it a whole month before I replaced it. I could not listen to music on it because it sounded so muddy and my TV speakers sounded better than it when watching TV through my satellite dish. It did sound acceptable on Dolby Digital DVDs but that was about it.


I think the point of this thread was if you are looking to get into HT you can spend a little bit more and get a setup that performs significantly better. If you are happy with your HTIB than that is all that matters. For some people it is not the best option, and I was one of these people.


I really wish you lived closer to me so I could invite you over to listen to my 2.1 system. I think you would be astonished at how it sounds.


----------



## upNdown

Quote:

_Originally posted by jermy4_
*I could not listen to music on it because it sounded so muddy*


I see this as a trend in this thread and others. It appears that the people listening to CD's have higher requirements than those watching DVD's. I don't know if people who listen to CD's are more descriminating, or if there are actual differences in requirements.


Chalk me up as a guy who is cheap and doesn't listen to CD's. As a result, I'm very happy with my Onkyo HTIB.


----------



## HDTV_432

could somebody please define the term 'muddy' for me?


I see it thrown around all the time and used as a 1 word reason to not buy the Onkyo.


----------



## MidLife

I didn't think this system was designed to play music.


It's a 6.1 surround system for movie soundtracks.


Is music recorded/mixed or designed to be played on a 6.1 system?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by HDTV_432_
*The 502 lists it's power as having 75W per channel.

The receiver with the HT-s770 lists it's wattage at 130W/channel.


Assuming Onkyo uses the same Wattage measuring devices (for integrety's sake) for all the receivers they manufacture, the receiver in the HTiB is _almost_ twice as powerful as the 502. Just because they have the same exterior, doesnt' mean they have the same interior. Don't judge a book (receiver) by it's cover. with the 55W/channel difference, it's obvious they aren't the same receiver.


Also, judging a receiver's power strictly by how much it weighs seems rather silly. If that's how you wanna play it, let me place some bricks inside my 1980 Kenwood receiver and I'll sell that to you for $1000 (free shipping). It weighs a TON, so it must be great!


JohnR, you've also mentioned much earlier in this thread, that your 'so-old-it's-no-longer-manufactured' Onkyo HT-500 receiver which was purchesed about 6-7 years ago doesnt' compete with 'todays better receivers'......well.....no s*it sherlock. I woudln't expect it to. (can you say 'apples and oranges'?) As you've already stated, it was underpowered for your power hungry speakers. Bringing it into this conversation seems totally pointless.


And as was I believe this threads original intent:

"Alternative ways to get surround sound with better quality components at the same price"

has yet to be proven. So far you've indicated ways to spend _more_ money on 2.1 systems, you have yet to provide ways to purchase a complete 6.1 system with a non-bargain-basement-generic sub at the same price of $450-$500. You've also quoted impossible-to-be-found prices for the items.


The bottom line:

Dollar for dollar, you simply can't (although you've tried) beat the sound/quality/quantity in the HT-s770 package, whether you care to admit it or not.*


Actually weight is probably a better measurement for analog amps, then just about anything else. It cuts through the crap and measures how big (and expensive) the transformer is.


If you look at a pricey 2000 dollar amplifier, you will notice they start weighing around 100 pounds.This is mostly due to the frame, and the transformer. The 1 transformer supplies the current to all the amplifier circuits, and usually when an amp is weak, its because the amp circuits are starved for power.


My HT-500 looked almost identical to the HT-501, as did the speakers, same drivers, same sub, etc. This was 2 years ago. I look at the 770 and its almost the same package. My Onkyo was "rated" at 100 RMS, and actually delivered only 32 RMS. Also the light transformer gives them extremely low current output.

----------------------


My point has always been that the Onkyo speakers that come with these products are muddy: dialogue is hard to understand, sound effects and background music all blurr together. A good built-in TV speaker sounds better with dialogue.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by MidLife_
*

Is music recorded/mixed or designed to be played on a 6.1 system?*
Yes, in several different formats:


1. SACD - multichannel CDs

2. DVD-A DVD Audio

3. DTS Audio

4. Music DVDs ( Like concert DVDs).

5. Also, receivers will multiplex 2 channel CDs to multi-channel, which can sound real good, especially if you are moving around ( like parties).


Music can be more demanding, but a decent system will do both well.


----------



## innocentfreak

Mark me down as someone else who was/is considering the Onkyo HTIB. Not only am I a complete newb but I have 300.00 in giftcards to Circuit City which is the other reason I am looking at the Onkyo. So what would you recommend, keeping in mind I am limited to CC at least for a large part of my purchase? On another site I was recommended the Dayton Sub for 124.99 and the Celestion AVP-305s from Best Buy for 150.00, but don't remember the receiver. I would also be connecting a DVD player and 2 Directv Tivos to the setup.


I also need to pick up a DVD player to go along with it. It would be connected to a 32" JVC D-series, so no flatscreen or HD ready. I am considering the Pioneer 578A after reading this board also from CC, again with giftcards and a little cash.


----------



## Mathew J

I might be pulling the trigger on this one tomorrow since it is on sale and I have a year of no interest...at least I can try it out and see how it does, if it blows it goes back...


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

A good comparison, is to just pick up a cheap Infinity Primus 150 or C25, or an athena AS-B1 and compare with the other Onkyo speakers.


Then if you dont think theres a massive difference, return the Infinity or Athena.


If you think there is a massive difference, return the Onkyo HTIB


A comparison with real speakers quickly made my Onkyos unlistenable...


----------



## Daniel Eddy

JohnR_IN_LA, I wanted to thank you for your advice. I was about to pull the plug on a Onkyo 770, until I started reading your post. I ended up spending a little bit more money, but after I saw and heard the 770 at a store, I saw what a pos the speakers are really. I picked up a Panasonic XR-50S, four Athena AS-B1's, one Athena AS-C1, and the Dayton Sub. I love my system now. Instead of upgrading every piece later on I have a great set-up now. Do you think that I should set my speakers on large (no crossover) or small (crossover at 100 Hz, 150 Hz, or 200 Hz)? Thanks again, Dan


----------



## jermy4

That sounds like a killer setup. Set all of your speakers to small with the crossover at 100 and the sub to yes.


----------



## Mathew J

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*A good comparison, is to just pick up a cheap Infinity Primus 150 or C25, or an athena AS-B1 and compare with the other Onkyo speakers.


Then if you dont think theres a massive difference, return the Infinity or Athena.


If you think there is a massive difference, return the Onkyo HTIB


A comparison with real speakers quickly made my Onkyos unlistenable...*
I love it how you use the term "real" when describing anything other than those which come with the onkyo HTIB....


while I understand where you are comming from, and agree to a degree....your solutions or alternative offerings IMHO suck from either a price or a convenience standpoint when compared to the Onkyo...either people settle with a stereo setup, order parts from multiple places and pray that they all work correctly or deal with RMAs and what not, or pay considerably more for something which in the end they might not want nor need....


I think it depends on what one is looking for, if this is to be primarily for movies then they Onkyo is a darn good setup for the cost, but for music it might not be the best.


I demoed the 770 today against a few other systems that cost a good deal more and honestly the 770 sounded as good if not better


----------



## svadas

Why not use those gift cards for a receiver from Circuit City? It would be a good starting point.


Quote:

_Originally posted by innocentfreak_
*Mark me down as someone else who was/is considering the Onkyo HTIB. Not only am I a complete newb but I have 300.00 in giftcards to Circuit City which is the other reason I am looking at the Onkyo. So what would you recommend, keeping in mind I am limited to CC at least for a large part of my purchase? On another site I was recommended the Dayton Sub for 124.99 and the Celestion AVP-305s from Best Buy for 150.00, but don't remember the receiver. I would also be connecting a DVD player and 2 Directv Tivos to the setup.


I also need to pick up a DVD player to go along with it. It would be connected to a 32" JVC D-series, so no flatscreen or HD ready. I am considering the Pioneer 578A after reading this board also from CC, again with giftcards and a little cash.*


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

I use the term *real* because I really dont think the Onkyo speakers are designed by a real speaker engineer.


They put one capacitor between the positive tweeter connection and the ground, and call it a crossover, lol.


Cheap Automobile manufacturers use that technique for their speakers... it saves them 15 cents a speaker.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by Daniel Eddy_
*JohnR_IN_LA, I wanted to thank you for your advice. I was about to pull the plug on a Onkyo 770, until I started reading your post. I ended up spending a little bit more money, but after I saw and heard the 770 at a store, I saw what a pos the speakers are really. I picked up a Panasonic XR-50S, four Athena AS-B1's, one Athena AS-C1, and the Dayton Sub. I love my system now. Instead of upgrading every piece later on I have a great set-up now. Do you think that I should set my speakers on large (no crossover) or small (crossover at 100 Hz, 150 Hz, or 200 Hz)? Thanks again, Dan*
Great Dan, its my own silly crusade against "white van" speakers.


I would try 100 Hz, and also try "Large". You may find "Large" gives you a tad more bass, but the clarity may suffer at higher volumes.

Also Large is a bit more dangerous for your speakers, your sending those low frequencies to relatively small mid-bass drivers which really makes them move somewhat violently. Though the Athenas can most likely handle it.


For long term health, it might be good to set them to 100 Hz after the warranty period expires 


I bet the your system really sounds good, those Athenas have a nice low-end, dont they?


----------



## innocentfreak

Quote:

_Originally posted by svadas_
*Why not use those gift cards for a receiver from Circuit City? It would be a good starting point.*
I have no problem doing that, but do you have any recommendations on the receiver. Also any thoughts on the speaker and sub recommendation or even dvd player?


----------



## Daniel Eddy

Thanks JohnR_IN_LA and jermy4, I'll set the speakers to small 100 Hz and see how I like it. The system does sound sweet and those Athenas really do have a nice low-end. When I listened to them at BB, I fell in love and had to have them. I couldn't be happier.


----------



## millerwill

I have retained (at least for the present) the Onkyo AVR (520) and subwoofer of the 770 HTiB, and like many persons here replaced the other speakers with the great deals on Infinity Primus'. I have the C25 center, 2 160's for the L/R fronts, and 2 140's for the L/R surrounds. I am now using the center Onkyo speaker of the 770 system for my surround back (6.1), and it seems to do well for that purpose (has 2 4" drivers plus a tweeter).


I am thinking of going to a 7.1 speaker set-up by using TWO of the Onkyo surrounds connected to the (one) surround back terminal of the 520 AVR. Since each of the Onkyo surrounds has a 4" driver + tweeter, it seems that the one surround-back channel should be able to handle these two Oknyo surrounds without any problem. Any thoughts on this plan? Am I crazy? It seems that this might spread out the surround-back 'stage' a bit more than just using the one speaker (the Onkyo center).


----------



## Mathew J

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Great Dan, its my own silly crusade against "white van" speakers.


I would try 100 Hz, and also try "Large". You may find "Large" gives you a tad more bass, but the clarity may suffer at higher volumes.

Also Large is a bit more dangerous for your speakers, your sending those low frequencies to relatively small mid-bass drivers which really makes them move somewhat violently. Though the Athenas can most likely handle it.


For long term health, it might be good to set them to 100 Hz after the warranty period expires 


I bet the your system really sounds good, those Athenas have a nice low-end, dont they?*
Whats silly is your insistance on equating these speakers from Onkyo with that which is sold out of a van and is known for poor performance and or quality...


While you might not find the build of the Onkyo speakers to be adequate, fact is Onkyo is a very respected name and many many others have found their HTIB systems to be some of the best out there, if not the best period...


With re. Daniel, while I am sure he has an excellent system I would be curious as to what his final cost was, if everything was purchased new, and how much of a hassle getting all of the components was..


----------



## svadas

I don't believe that Circuit City carries the Pioneer 1014, so your receiver choices are limited to Onkyo and Harmon Kardon. I believe the Onkyo may be more for your money but the cheapest one I'd look at is the 602. Scan the internet for prices and take them with you to CC and get them to match or lower their price. I wouldn't spend much on a DVD player unless there is a feature that you just have to have. I'd get $60 Panasonic myself. Speakers would have a lot to do on your room size. Those Celestions are well regarded but at the same time they are a miniature sized and physics limits them in large rooms. I like the Athena speakers and that's what I am buying myself piece by piece. Best Buy often has good prices, but I just saved a lot using Froogle price searches. People like the Dayton sub, but I've never heard it. For the price there are zero alternatives. For the price you could even buy 2 really. Just my opinion, and I'm no expert and am slowly puting my stuff together a piece every few weeks.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Daniel Eddy_
*Thanks JohnR_IN_LA and jermy4, I'll set the speakers to small 100 Hz and see how I like it. The system does sound sweet and those Athenas really do have a nice low-end. When I listened to them at BB, I fell in love and had to have them. I couldn't be happier.*


----------



## ajstan99

Quote:

_Originally posted by Daniel Eddy_
*I picked up a Panasonic XR-50S, four Athena AS-B1's, one Athena AS-C1, and the Dayton Sub. I love my system now. Instead of upgrading every piece later on I have a great set-up now. Do you think that I should set my speakers on large (no crossover) or small (crossover at 100 Hz, 150 Hz, or 200 Hz)? Thanks again, Dan*
Hey Dan - Would you mind sharing the final cost you paid for this setup? Also, could you buy an extra speaker to make it 6.1 or would you have to buy a pair? Thanks and enjoy your new system.


----------



## Dan Forsyth

svadas-what athena speakers are you buying?What reciver do you have?and would you reccomend buying componets one by one?


----------



## svadas

Quote:

_Originally posted by Dan Forsyth_
*svadas-what athena speakers are you buying?What reciver do you have?and would you reccomend buying componets one by one?*
So far I bought a pair of F1s and the center C1, I'm going to get 2 pairs of the R1 for side and rears but haven't as of yet. I'm just using a 10 year old Denon stereo receiver because that's what I have on hand, but I am going to buy the Pioneer 1014, or the newer model coming out, for certain. I am buying a little at a time because I have a rather tight budget and it doesn't "hurt" as much doing it a little at a time. But this is also the basement theater I am building so I don't need to have it all right now anyways. I say buy what you can, but maximize what you buy. You don't have to get the tower speakers, I just always wanted a pair of towers as I've never had any and they were on sale at Best Buy for $99 each which sealed the deal. A lot of people seem the think the bookshelves sound more honest. Subwoofer is going to be my trusty HSU Research VTF-2 that I using in the main system.


----------



## Dan Forsyth

Yeah over in the speaker forum there talking about bookshelves vs. floorstanders. Would you take floorstanders over bookshelves


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Often there is a floorstanding and a bookshelf version of a certain configuration, the floorstanding version will have 2 mid-bass drivers, instead of 1. This increases the output of mid-bass, but sometimes the floorstanding version is not *quite* as focused sounding.


They also may take a bit more power to drive.


The 3rd difference is the larger baffle, which tends to improve bass response on the floorstander.


The 4th difference is, the floorstanders often dont need a stand, so you save the extra cost of stands.


The 5th difference is looks. Many people dont like big floorstanding speakers everwhere.


------------------------


So basically you have to decide for yourself, I have the floorstanders up front to get more output and bass response and the bookshelf speakers in back.


----------



## Dan Forsyth

Ok, how is the setup u have?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

My setup costs about $2k, and is really nice, albiet still a compromise.

Room Correcting receiver ( similar to the Pioneer 1014 people talk about), 500-watt Infinity sub with room correction (bought used), 5 huge speakers that cast an incredibly deep soundstage (bought B-stock), and a DVD player that does SACD and DVD audio disks.


My speakers are similar to the ELTs, but have an upgraded tweeter that sound smooth at super high volume levels.


----------



## Dan Forsyth

Cool do you think it was worht the money


----------



## Mathew J

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*My setup costs about $2k, and is really nice, albiet still a compromise.

Room Correcting receiver ( similar to the Pioneer 1014 people talk about), 500-watt Infinity sub with room correction (bought used), 5 huge speakers that cast an incredibly deep soundstage (bought B-stock), and a DVD player that does SACD and DVD audio disks.


My speakers are similar to the ELTs, but have an upgraded tweeter that sound smooth at super high volume levels.*
2k and you are still compromising, and yet you come in here and gripe about a sub $500 system???...


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mathew J_
*2k and you are still compromising, and yet you come in here and gripe about a sub $500 system???...*
Can't we all just get along?


----------



## Dan Forsyth

No fighting


----------



## Daniel Eddy

Quote:

With re. Daniel, while I am sure he has an excellent system I would be curious as to what his final cost was, if everything was purchased new, and how much of a hassle getting all of the components was..
My system costed $850.68 not including stands or wiring. Obviously it was several hundred dollars more than the cost of the 770. The system could have been cheaper but I didn't buy the Athena speakers when they were on sale at BB and I spent a little more and went with a better receiver than I intended. The background on my decision to purchase separates is as following. I know that A/V receivers will be adding Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD in the future, so I would be upgrading the receiver in a few years. I intend to get the 770 with the intention of upgrading the receiver and keeping the speakers. When I realized that the speakers weren't a quality build in my opinion, I decided that I probably want to upgrade them in a few years also. I then decided to build a system rather than buy the 770 and upgrade everything in a few years. It really wasn't a hassle to purchase everything separate. I picked up the Athenas at BB, the receiver came from JR.com(if you call them you get an excellent price), and the subwoofer came from Parts Express. Both Parts Express and JR.com gave me excellent service, great prices, and on-time delivery.


----------



## Daniel Eddy

Quote:

Hey Dan - Would you mind sharing the final cost you paid for this setup? Also, could you buy an extra speaker to make it 6.1 or would you have to buy a pair? Thanks and enjoy your new system.
My setup costed $850.68. The Athena bookshelves can only be purchased in pairs. I might consider purchasing another pair or buying the towers in the future. If I have another speaker left over, I can use it with a 7.1 receiver in the future. Thanks, I definitely will be enjoying the system. Sunday is movie day.


----------



## Daniel Eddy

My two previous posts had the incorrect price when I first posted them, I have corrected the posts to reflect the correct price of $850.68.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by Dan Forsyth_
*Cool do you think it was worth the money?*
I built my system to play Concert DVDs, Of course I watch lots of movies on it too, but the concert experience was how I judged its performance. I wanted the experience to be reasonably close to going to a real concert.


I have kind of an "entry level" high-end system, a typical high-end system costs 5k-10k. Thats still less than most boats, and you can use it every nite haha.


Its pleasant at 90-95 dB average, which is the volume of many of the concerts, in real life. So yea it was worth it.


--------------------------------

Theres alot of people that will drop $2k on a TV, but dont want to spend any money on the sound system. Its better to try to match the two. If you have a 1000 dollar TV, get a 1000 dollar sound system.


----------



## dmich44

I've read this thread with much interest as i just purchased a new samsung 5063 hlp tv and am now trying to decide on ht. i know a decent amount about tv's...but unfortunately next to nothing about audio. i basically have two questions - my room is approx 13x14 and open on one side (to the left of the tv), 1. can i get away with an 8" woofer or do i really need to go 10? 2. assuming i am going to spend around $1000-1200 all in on the ht, do you think $300 on receiver, $100 on sub, and the rest on speakers makes sense? also, how dependent is speaker quality on the size of the speakers? i would prefer to get as small speakers as possible as there isn't a real good place to hide them in my room.


as a final point this system will generally not be played real loud so 'power' isn't real important, a clear well balanced system is the goal.


thanks in advance for your help i've already learned quite a bit from reading all of your thoughts..


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Its pleasant at 90-95 dB average, which is the volume of many of the concerts, in real life.*
Just because I was curious I just played a CD at 90-95 db. Holy cow that is loud! It was enjoyable, but I have a feeling if I did it all of the time my hearing would suffer. Do you happen to know at what db level your hearing can be damaged?


----------



## Mathew J

Well this thread influenced me...I just picked up a demo Harmon Kardon AV230 for 299 (they threw in a four year service plan for free at Comp USA) and hooked it up to the Boston bookshelves and the advent minis I had for rears....taking it back though and getting the 770 as really while the HK is nice, the condition is alot worse when I look at it up close, I still need a sub, center and if I ever want 6.1 another rear speaker...and I will have to eventually upgrade all of the speakers anyway, plus they never gave me the remote with the unit which kinda sucks....


----------



## HT Jake

Hi,

With much thanks to this thread, I have taken the leap and purchased my first HT setup. To save money, I've order everything online. The only problem is, I'm not sure what I'm going to need to wire the whole thing together. It would be awesome if someone could tell me what I'm going to need to connect everything. Also any tips and tricks would be greatly appreciated as I am new to this.


TV:

~ Toshiba 52HM84 52" HD Monitor DLP Projection TV


Receiver:

~ Pioneer VSX-1014TX-K THX Select A/V Receiver with MCACC


Center Channel:

~ Athena Dual 5.5" 2-Way 125 Watt Center Channel Speaker AS-C1


Left and Right:

~ (2x) Athena Dual 8" 2-Way 200 Watt Floor Standing Speaker AS-F2


Rear Left and Right:

~ (2x) Athena AS-R1 bipole Speaker


Thanks,

Jake


----------



## jamawass

Quote:

_Originally posted by HT Jake_
*Hi,

With much thanks to this thread, I have taken the leap and purchased my first HT setup. To save money, I've order everything online. The only problem is, I'm not sure what I'm going to need to wire the whole thing together. It would be awesome if someone could tell me what I'm going to need to connect everything. Also any tips and tricks would be greatly appreciated as I am new to this.




Jake*
Your receiver's manual will have information on the distances and positioning of your speakers. A quick setup card is usually included so initial speaker hookup will be easy.


----------



## HT Jake

Thanks,

I was thinking that all the manuals will tell me what I will need. I was just hoping to know a little bit ahead of time so I could have everything ready to go when it gets delivered.

Also, I was looking for some tips and tricks, such as I read on this forum of people cutting the ends off of extension cords and using them as speaker wire.


----------



## afrogt

Jake,


For your sound setup, just get some 12ga wire from Parts Express and also banana plugs. The plugs makes the install go much easier, especially on the receiver end because the binding post are close together and bare wire isn't as easy to install properly.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=100-155 


You'll need 10 red and 10 black banana plugs. I pair for each speaker and also on the receiver. These are only 55 cents each and work very well. I use them myself.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=090-460 

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=090-465 


If you want "prettier" plugs, you can go for this instead, but sonicly they won't be any different than the cheap models.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...umber=091-1165 


They also have great prices on cables but since you didn't list a DVD player, cable or satellite box. I'm not sure what you need.


No subwoofer?


----------



## HT Jake

Thanks afrogt,

I've heard the use of banana plugs for that particular receiver is almost a must. That was definitely the plan. Thanks for the links.

As far as a DVD player, I want to get a good one to maximize my huge purchase of a TV like the one I got, but with HD-DVD on the horizon, I'm hesitant to spend that much.

I'm currently researching the subwoofer thing. I think I want to get an HSU or an SVS, but they are pretty pricey. I went with the AS-F2s instead of the F1s to buy me sometime until I can find a good deal on a subwoofer.

Thanks again for the links and info.

Jake


----------



## upNdown

Quote:

_Originally posted by afrogt_
*Jake,


bare wire isn't as easy to install properly.

*


This seems to be an oft-repeated statement here. I just installed all of my speakers with bare wire ends and it seemed pretty easy. Aside from not stripping too much (so you don't create any shorts), what else do you have to worry about?


----------



## afrogt

UpNdown,


I'm talking about on the the receiver end that it's difficult to install bare wire properly. On my HK receiver and especially on the Pioneer 1014, 5 sets of binding post are grouped together. When you have that many wires grouped together its pretty easy to cause a short with bare wire. HK's are particularly sensitive to loose strands of bare wire.


It's not nearly as difficult on the speaker end since you're only dealing with 2 posts. But banana plugs are far easier to use and much more convenient if you need to move things around or plug and unplug wires.


----------



## Mathew J

so not to thread jack but bananna plugs will work with the harmon kardon AVR 235? I am looking at getting this reciever and would like to do things right the first time...also are solder connections needed or can you simply crimp them? thanks


----------



## afrogt

Mathew,


Banana plugs will work fine on the HK 235. You can see the back panel and the plugs fit directly into the back of each speaker terminal. The links I provided earlier are set screw plugs, you don't need to solder or crimp anything. The screw on the plug holds the speaker wire in place.


----------



## Mathew J

thanks, those gold plated ones look nice...might have to pick some of those up along with 14 gauge wire for my rear runs...damn things can get expensive quick.


----------



## afrogt

Here's some more gold plated plugs for $2.99 for four!

http://www.impactacoustics.com/produ...=301&sku=29785


----------



## Mathew J

thanks, those look perfect.


----------



## upNdown

Quote:

_Originally posted by afrogt_
*UpNdown,


I'm talking about on the the receiver end that it's difficult to install bare wire properly. On my HK receiver and especially on the Pioneer 1014, 5 sets of binding post are grouped together. When you have that many wires grouped together its pretty easy to cause a short with bare wire. HK's are particularly sensitive to loose strands of bare wire.


It's not nearly as difficult on the speaker end since you're only dealing with 2 posts. But banana plugs are far easier to use and much more convenient if you need to move things around or plug and unplug wires.*
Thanks afrogt. I did the receiver end too, and I see what you mean. But I realized that as I was doing it and was careful to avoid any shorts. I gotta say that I think anybody should be able to do this job properly, with a little care.


----------



## Megalith

How exactly does one tell if your receiver isn't able to give sufficient power to your speakers?


I've had the Onkyo receiver for over 2 months and I still can't find a setting I am satisfied with. Something just...isn't right, especially when I listen to music in stereo.


Everything just sounds downright nasty to me when it's played in stereo, for some reason. Perhaps it's because I've been listening to stereo music upmixed to 5.1 for years, and anything played only through 2-channels sounds flat, dead and raspy to me.


But, I just got a new pair of Infinity Beta 20s, trying to test their potential out, and I KNOW that they can do better than what I've been hearing. I'm trying to achieve a "full" sound, which shouldn't be difficult because my room isn't large and the 20s have 6"1/2 woofers.


Either:


- The Onkyo receiver isn't capable of delivering enough power to the Betas.


- It's too difficult to get the sound exactly how you want it because the receiver only allows you to adjust treble and bass at a minimum of 2+- db.


- In stereo mode, nothing is even outputted from the sub unless you turn on "double-bass", which is worthless because all bass originally routed to the main speakers are supposedly routed to the sub instead in surround modes.


Everything seems to sound fine in surround modes, especially movies. I guess it's something with the sub, since music in stereo does sound better with double-bass turned on. But it's annoying to have to turn it off everytime I put in something that's in surround. I'm really beginning to question the legitimacy of the sub they included though. Yeah, it's good for ambience, but that's it. The bass coming from my damn Betas are more punch and tight than whatever comes from the Onkyo.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Do you have two RCA cables going from your source CD/DVD player, in addition to the Digital audio cable? That may help, to go to analog.


Once you have the analog RCA cables hooked up, see if hte Onkyo has "direct" analog mode that just takes the two analog signals and amplifies them. That should sound best. I cant remember if my Onkyo had that feature, however.


---------

My Rocket 550s sounded liked it was sucking air trying to get enough juice out of my Onkyo HT-500 receiver, though your Infinity Betas are slightly more efficient. Still I wouldnt be suprised if you just didnt have enough power. My Rockets sounded 10 times better once i bought a used Yamaha receiver that had some weight (a 1999 RXV-995)


You can always huff your Betas to a friends house, or a store, and see how they sound hooked up to a higher end unit.


---------------------------

The Onkyo sub is not musical *at all*. Its ok for HT, but I always turned mine off for music.


----------



## Mathew J

Quote:

_Originally posted by upNdown_
*Thanks afrogt. I did the receiver end too, and I see what you mean. But I realized that as I was doing it and was careful to avoid any shorts. I gotta say that I think anybody should be able to do this job properly, with a little care.*
Out of curiosity what happens when you do develop a short? does it damage the speaker or the reciever? thanks


----------



## afrogt

On the HK's they would just typically shut off. I've never had the problem myself because I've used banana plugs since day 1 of getting my HK. But I've read on this forum and well as a few others about HK owners whose receivers would shut down and once they removd the loose strands of wire or went to banana plugs, the problem went away.


Many receivers has a system protect that shuts everything down at clipping. which will protect the receiver and speaker.


----------



## millerwill

OK, I have replaced all the speakers in my Onkyo 770 HTiB with Infinity Primus' (c25, two 160's for the L/R fronts, and 150's as surrounds). And it sounds many times better, still with the AVR and subwoofer of the original 770 system. [My room is 17'x15', 8.5' ceiling, and I use it almost exclusively for home cinema, i.e., tv and dvds, not music.]


Question: does this quality of speaker justify an AVR better than the Onkyo 520 (the one with the 770 system), e.g., the Pio 1014?


Related question: the power rating that Onkyo quotes for the 520 is 130 wts/ch, with the same distortion limits as for its 602 and 702, which are much more expensive (and heavier!) AVR's than the 520, but with lower power ratings. Is Onkyo being inconsistent in their power ratings? I can understand inconsistency from one manufacturer to another, but within the same company? What's going on?


Thanks for any enlightenment anyone can provide!


----------



## caser85

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*OK, I have replaced all the speakers in my Onkyo 770 HTiB with Infinity Primus' (c25, two 160's for the L/R fronts, and 150's as surrounds).
*
If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay for the 160s? I've been going back and forth between those and the 250s. I'm trying to find a good price for the 160s though.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Millerwill the specs are nothing alike:


On the HT-520, Onkyo completely fudges the specs, by measuring only 2 channels and ONLY AT ONE AUDIO FREQUENCY.

(thats a laugh).


Heres from their spec sheet: Power Output (8 ohm, 1 kHz, FTC)


On the 602 and 702 they measure 5 channels, at full freqencies:


They write hat like this: Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz-20 kHz, FTC)



So unless your planning on playing a single 1khz tone through 2 channels all day, then just ignore the HT-520 power rating.


----------



## Megalith

I know that sometimes it is difficult to resist going for the cheapest deal you see, but they are guaranteed to be from an unauthorized dealer. Even though they tell you that what you're getting is sealed and from the factory, it's BS, and you'll know it when you take it out of the box and see the serial tags ripped away from the back.


The places where I've seen the 160s for the cheapest are:

http://www.soundsdirtcheap.com 

http://store.yahoo.com/authorizedele...pr160inst.html 


I think millerwill referred me to one of these sites a while ago, but I ended up going with the Beta line.


Anyway, I would e-mail them first about the whole serial thing, to make sure that what you're getting is 100% new and untouched.


And I think getting rid of the 520 will improve the sound. It seems to me like the 520 was built specifically to drive the speakers included with it, and that notion depresses me. The Pioneer 1014 supposedly makes everyone happy, but I am interested in the Panasonic's digital capapbility.


----------



## millerwill

Megalith: Yes, I got a pair of Primus 160's from www.sounddirtcheap.com, and they were perfectly new in the box, and I am wholly pleased with the outcome. (I do admit I was a bit nervous, with the name of the outfit, and all, but decided to try it.) I think I would be more reluctant to buy something like the Pio 1014 from such a place that I don't know much about.


From your comments, and John's, I probably will get the Pio 1014 and sell the 520 on ebay.


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Millerwill the specs are nothing alike:


On the HT-520, Onkyo completely fudges the specs, by measuring only 2 channels and ONLY AT ONE AUDIO FREQUENCY.

(thats a laugh).


Heres from their spec sheet: Power Output (8 ohm, 1 kHz, FTC)


On the 602 and 702 they measure 5 channels, at full freqencies:


They write hat like this: Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz-20 kHz, FTC)

*
John, Thanks very much for the comments, pointing out the origin of my confusion on the specs. In looking at Onkyo's website, I see that the 502, 602, and 702 are rated at 75, 85, and 100 wts/ch, respectively, all stated to be relevant at 8 Ohms, 20-20K Hz. I presume that the 520 AVR of the 770 system is roughly comparable to be 502; is that reasonable? If so, then is it reasonable to assume that it produces ~75 wts/ch over the full range, 20-20K Hz? If so, this is really not so bad, is it?


I do appreciate your comments!


----------



## sparrow_69

Are the speakers on the ht-s570 as unclear as they are on the higher end Onkyo systems?


----------



## MidLife

Just thought I would quote the specs on the Onkyo HT-R520 AV Receiver since I have one.

Specifically, page 59 of the manual:


Specifications

Amplifier Section


Power output:

All channels: 130 W (8ohm, 20 Hz-20 kHz, FTC)

Dynamic power: 2 x 260 W (3ohm, front)

2 x 200 W (4ohm, front)

2 x 150 W (8ohm, front)

THD (total harmonic distortion): 0.08% (rated power)

Damping factor: 60 (front, 1kHz,8ohm)

Speaker impedance: 6ohm~


so, it is still vague, as it doesn't state anything about whether all channels are driven at the same time. and, does "FTC" mean these are figures for the United States Federal Trade Commission??


now, compare this to my Pioneer VSX-D411, page 40


Specifications

Amplifier Section


Continuous average power output of 100 watts* per channel, min., at 8 ohms, from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz with no more than 0.2%** total harmonic distortion (front)

Continuous Power Output

Front.....100 W per channel (1kHz, 1.0%, 8 ohm)

Center....100 W (1kHz, 1.0%, 8ohm)

Surround....100 W per channel (1kHz,1.0%,8ohm)


* = Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Comission's Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for Amplifiers.

** = Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer.



Okay, so given the above, which is the more powerful amplifier delivering the most power with the least amount of distortion and is generally considered the better amplifier as far as specs go?????


----------



## phreak

i, too, was thinking of going with 770. but, after reading some of this thread and listening to it myself, i wasn't exactly blown away by it. don't get me wrong, it sound decent. but, i'm looking for a little more clarity.


can anyone suggest a setup for around $600? for now, i can do without a set of rear speakers. i can always get those later on and use more of my budget to get better equipment. so i need a receiver, front speakers, center channel, and sub.


----------



## MidLife

so, according to the specs, the Oknyo is better than the Pioneer 1014

http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/product_...onomy_id=62-98 


although, it is somewhat lighter.


Pioneer 1014 15.4 kg

Onkyo 22.5 lbs / 10.2 kg

Pioneer 411 19.8 lbs / 9.0 kg


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by MidLife_
*Just thought I would quote the specs on the Onkyo HT-R520 AV Receiver since I have one.

Specifically, page 59 of the manual:

*
Thanks for your observations above. Yes, it is confusing (certainly to me). Has anyone, with the appropriate electronic gear, actually MEASURED the output of the 520 (and other AVRs), driving all channels, over the full 20-20K frequency range, at a given distortion level? I suppose that would be the only way to make sense of things.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

The 520 specs tell a different story on the website:

Power Output (8 ohm, 1 kHz, FTC) 130 W/Ch

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...&class=Systems 


The HT-520 is not even close to being in the same class as the Pioneer 1014. The HT-520 doesnt even have time correction. THe Pioneer not only does time correction, it comes with a little microphone, and will correct every speaker and sub individually for your room acoustics.


The easiest way to make sense of things, is to buy beg or steal a real receiver, bring it home, and hook it up. You will notice the difference right away, if you have decent speakers.


The HT-520 is a fine 100 dollar receiver, just dont mistake it for a 200 dollar receiver, because it isnt.


----------



## jermy4

Go buy the pioneer 1014 at best buy or an Onkyo 602 at circuit city and try it out. If you don't notice any difference then return it.


----------



## MidLife

so which is the correct specifications???


The web site or the user manual? 


Obviously, the Pioneer 1014 is much better, I was just pointing out that paper specifications are "deliberately" [there's really no other way around this folks, they do these kinds of specification tricks on food labels MPG car atings, etc....] deceiving the consumer.


----------



## MidLife

I've done a little research meanwhile, and, I think I am closer to a better understanding or power ratings.

Apparently, back in the 70's, the FTC mandated a "standard" for power output claims. All we had were "mono" and "stereo" for home use in those days! 

so, power output was based on "all channels driven" [basically, left and right] simultaneously over the audible spectrum of 20-20kHz.

So, to drive a 5 or 6 channel speaker systems, your gonna need some hefty amp.

But, if we leave out the .1 channel, we don't need an amp going down to 20Hz. The power is now available for the 1kHz, that normally is in movie soundtrack range.

So, correct me please if I'm wrong, but, the Onkyo 520 receiver is "really" a 130 watt "stereo" amplifier, cabale of 130watt per channel into full range speakers[ 2 channels]. Since we dont need low bass [we send that to the power sub] this receiver is capable of 130 watt per channel [6 channels] for frequencies of 1kHz or higher.

Receivers rated 100watts per channel, all 5 or 6 channels driven 20Hz-20kHz are just that. If we have a powered subwoofer, we don't need that full range power and it wouldn't be used anyway as the crossover would roll it off anyway?

So, as complicated as it is, aparently the comparison of power output depends on the application, frequency range of speakers and whether or not a self-power subwoofer is utilized.


----------



## millerwill

MidLife: Sounds like a reasonable analysis. My personal situation is that I'm trying to decide about whether it is worthwhile or not to replace my Onkyo 520 (the AVR from the 770 HTiB) with the Pioneer 1014. I have replaced the Onkyo speakers with Infinity Primus' (a C25, two 160's for the L/R fronts, two 150's for the L/R surrounds, and two 140's that are hooked up parallel for the surround back); and I am using the subwoofer from the 770 system. Everything sounds great to me, the question being would it sound 'greater' with the Pio 1014? The obvious way to know, of course, is to buy the 1014 with a 30-day return option and try it out, but if it were possible to find out otherwise I could buy it from J&R, say, at a better price.


I am really only interested in tv and movies, and don't do any serious music listening on the system. And the room is of moderate size (17x15, with 8.5 ceiling). As usual, I value the input from those of you (all of you, in fact!) more knowledgeable than I!


----------



## jermy4

millerwill, if you are looking for an upgrade path I would recommend that you upgrade the sub first and then look at receivers.


It's going to be hard to tell you whether the new receiver is going to give you what you are looking for. It will be an improvement, but it might not be that big of an improvement. I think with your listening habits and your room size a new sub would make more sense.


----------



## millerwill

jermy4: Thanks for the suggestion. What am I looking for in a better sub? I seem to get plenty of LFE now; e.g., in the first canonade in "Master & Commander", it sounds like one is in the war! I readily admit that I don't have an audiophile's ear, so probably don't know what to expect. The very low base (< 80 dB) is so diffuse as it is.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*MidLife: Sounds like a reasonable analysis. My personal situation is that I'm trying to decide about whether it is worthwhile or not to replace my Onkyo 520 (the AVR from the 770 HTiB) with the Pioneer 1014. I have replaced the Onkyo speakers with Infinity Primus' (a C25, two 160's for the L/R fronts, two 150's for the L/R surrounds, and two 140's that are hooked up parallel for the surround back); and I am using the subwoofer from the 770 system. Everything sounds great to me, the question being would it sound 'greater' with the Pio 1014? The obvious way to know, of course, is to buy the 1014 with a 30-day return option and try it out, but if it were possible to find out otherwise I could buy it from J&R, say, at a better price.


I am really only interested in tv and movies, and don't do any serious music listening on the system. And the room is of moderate size (17x15, with 8.5 ceiling). As usual, I value the input from those of you (all of you, in fact!) more knowledgeable than I!*
I replaced my 19 pound Onkyo with a 34 pound Yamaha, and the difference was amazing.


So you replacing your 19 pound Onkyo with a 34 pound Pioneer should get similar results


----------



## Megalith

The Onkyo sub is pretty damn good during explosions, hulls of ships exploding, etc.


But it is TERRIBLE for music...the sub which I use for my PC, the Creative Inspire 5700 one, is even better. People have probably said it a thousand times, but it seems as if the Onkyo sub is severely limited in what it can produce. Sometimes I feel like I'm hearing the same two frequencies over and over.


As a fact, it seems to lack any kind of distinct punchiness. Upgrading the sub would definitely be wise if you listen to music with the system, but it's probably acceptable if you just watch films. Infinity looks like they have some affordable, good quality subs though, so it may still be considerable. I am definitely going to upgrade mine when I get the chance, but I think I'll be upgrading the receiver first.


----------



## svadas

Depending on your budget, HSU Research makes very good subs in a rather economical price range.

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*jermy4: Thanks for the suggestion. What am I looking for in a better sub? I seem to get plenty of LFE now; e.g., in the first canonade in "Master & Commander", it sounds like one is in the war! I readily admit that I don't have an audiophile's ear, so probably don't know what to expect. The very low base (*


----------



## adamofwales

The Onkyo HTIBs are not meant for audiophiles.


They satisfy a certain market niche.


Now, in regard to the main speakers and surround on them... Well, they're not the best. I have the S760 and I've burnt it in.


There's just not much detail, plainly put.


Now, the subwoofer, is an entirely different story, rivaling much more expensive subwoofers from much more "reputable" manufacturers.


The receiver itself, I'd say is excellent for the money, lots of optical and component level connections, not to mention DTS-ES Discreet 6.1 and Dolby Digital EX digital decoding.


----------



## MidLife

everywhere I look, I see that the Pioneer 1014 is "only" 19 lbs as well.


http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...etailComponent 


I give up!


----------



## svadas

The 19 pounds is a typo. It's actually 34 pounds and very large in size too.


----------



## MidLife

okay. Thanks.


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by adamofwales_
*The Onkyo HTIBs are not meant for audiophiles.


Now, the subwoofer, is an entirely different story, rivaling much more expensive subwoofers from much more "reputable" manufacturers.


The receiver itself, I'd say is excellent for the money, lots of optical and component level connections, not to mention DTS-ES Discreet 6.1 and Dolby Digital EX digital decoding.*
Thanks for the comments. I think I'm beginning to reach a decision point, helped along by all the comments above, and also some from other threads talking about the Panasonic digital AVR's in comparison to the Pio 1014 et al: I think I will just stay with the Onkyo 520 for the next year or so--as I've noted, it seems to provide plenty of clean power (unlike John's experience above) for my uneducated ears (for tv and movies, I'm not into serious music listening)--and get a digital AVR maybe in '06 after they have matured a bit more. Everybody seems to agree that digital AVR's are clearly the future, and only disagree about whether the future is already here or not.


Of course, since I have two speakers hooked up in parallel to the center-back surround terminal of the 520, I may burn it out at any time, and then my decision about getting a new one will be easy!


----------



## adamofwales

Sounds like you're putting things together anyway.



You can spend a lot of money on a Digital AVR, but the reality is that at some point, that digital signal will need to be converted to an analog one and then sent to the speakers.


Onkyo makes some of the best analog receivers out there, which is where I would put my money unless I needed the additional features of an AVR receiver, i.e. Harman Kardon AVR-7800 (onboard Faroudja).


In my mind, for a good startup HT, an Onkyo S760 or S770 HTIB would work best, because you can always upgrade your satellites to a better level, I recommend Polk Audio, and as I've already said, the subwoofer included on the S760 and S770 is on par with the $1200+ variety, maybe even better than that.


You really should invest in some good speaker wire, and sub wire. That will make a big difference in sound quality.



-adam


----------



## JnC

Quote:

_Originally posted by adamofwales_
*You can spend a lot of money on a Digital AVR, but the reality is that at some point, that digital signal will need to be converted to an analog one and then sent to the speakers.
*
I think he was refering to a digitally amplfied AVR, which is digital all the way to the binding posts. Yes, you read that correctly.... a "digital amplifer".  At first glance, I thought it didn't make any sense either but that's how they operate.


Digitally amp'ed AVR's are available as low as $250, but these early ones need to be matched with sensitive high impedance speakers.


When you're dealing with sources that are digital such as CD's, DVD's, and your satellite or cable streams that have digital audio, it makes more sense to not convert it back and forth between digital and analog, but keep it digital.


Regards,

JnC


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by adamofwales_
*the subwoofer included on the S760 and S770 is on par with the $1200+ variety, maybe even better than that.
*
LOL, I replaced my Onkyo sub with a Sony SA-WM40 ($135), which was far superior. I have since replaced the Sony witha $500 Infinity IL-120, another huge jump in performance.


The Onkyo sub is a decent sub-100 dollar sub, no more, no less. It has none of the features of more expensive subs? Even from a feature standpoint, its a cheap sub.


The Onkyo receiver is a decent 100 dollar receiver, no more, no less. It weighs what other 100 dollar receivers weigh, it has similar features, I dont understand how you can say its some huge value? It doesnt have the nice channel delay flexibility of a good 200 dollar receiver.


Showering accolades on this system is just silly. Its worth about what people pay for it.


----------



## millerwill

John, I don't know what you mean by 'channel delay flexibility'. The Onkyo 520 has settings for the distance of each speaker from the listener, to delay them appropriately. It does not have any delay to adjust for lip-synch problems; but I don't think you get that with any $200 AVR (e.g., the Pio 1014 does not have this).


----------



## adamofwales

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*LOL, I replaced my Onkyo sub with a Sony SA-WM40 ($135), which was far superior. I have since replaced the Sony witha $500 Infinity IL-120, another huge jump in performance.


The Onkyo sub is a decent sub-100 dollar sub, no more, no less. It has none of the features of more expensive subs? Even from a feature standpoint, its a cheap sub.


The Onkyo receiver is a decent 100 dollar receiver, no more, no less. It weighs what other 100 dollar receivers weigh, it has similar features, I dont understand how you can say its some huge value? It doesnt have the nice channel delay flexibility of a good 200 dollar receiver.


Showering accolades on this system is just silly. Its worth about what people pay for it.*
I completely disagree with your statements.


I have an old Sony 5.1 Channel Dolby Pro Logic receiver that you can have for your bedroom if you want.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*John, I don't know what you mean by 'channel delay flexibility'. The Onkyo 520 has settings for the distance of each speaker from the listener, to delay them appropriately. It does not have any delay to adjust for lip-synch problems; but I don't think you get that with any $200 AVR (e.g., the Pio 1014 does not have this).*
Oh ok, yea then i was wrong there.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by adamofwales_
*I completely disagree with your statements.


I have an old Sony 5.1 Channel Dolby Pro Logic receiver that you can have for your bedroom if you want.*
Thanks, i picked up a stereo Yamaha last week though. 50 bucks on craigslist.org, a pretty cool classifieds site if anyone wants to check it out.


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by adamofwales_
*... as I've already said, the subwoofer included on the S760 and S770 is on par with the $1200+ variety, maybe even better than that.
*
This is probably the funniest statement that I have ever read on these forums. I think you should share this opinion over at the subwoofer section of this site.


----------



## adamofwales

Quote:

_Originally posted by jermy4_
*This is probably the funniest statement that I have ever read on these forums. I think you should share this opinion over at the subwoofer section of this site. *
Why prove myself to a bunch of John_R_inLAs????


I own the sub, I know how it sounds. I don't need some part time hourly sales person to validate my knowledge.


----------



## jamawass

Quote:

_Originally posted by adamofwales_
*Why prove myself to a bunch of John_R_inLAs????


I own the sub, I know how it sounds. I don't need some part time hourly sales person to validate my knowledge.*
A lot of the criticism of htib's are subjective. All the sites that have actually reviewed the 770 like here have rated it highly for Movies ( after all it is a HTIB right?). I wonder how long John R had his 770 for if he didn't even know it had channel delay. Even I rarely read owner manuals but I picked that up by just browsing thru. As I've stated here before show me a NEW 6.1 system for $399 that sounds better than the 770 with same no. of component inputs, s-video inputs, etc.

A lot of people who make their first foray into HT are upgrading from TV speakers. You don't expect them to shop around for seperate components and hook ups. This is the market HTIB is addressing, if there wasn't a market for HTIB's, manufacturers wouldn't make them and the stores wouldn't sell them.

Audio snobs can obviously skip htibs and spend $$$ on "high end audio" but just criticising htibs blindly is stupid IMO.


----------



## Blato

Quote:

I wonder how long John R had his 770 ...
I don't think John actually owned a 770. I believe at the beginning of this thread he stated his only experience with Onkyo equipment was with an old 5.1 system several years ago.


This just leads me to disregard most of what he says.


----------



## jermy4

Opinions are like A**holes. Everyone has one and they all stink.


----------



## hughie

I believe John said he had a 650 which was a 5.1 system and the receiver was an HT-R500. Which is what I have.


I was disappointed in mine when I first got it. It didn't sound as good as the shelf system that does 5.1 that I have. After looking around on the internet, I saw that some of the receivers with the 650 had a problem with the output of the LFE signal. Tested it with a DVD that has the THX test on it and discovered that while the sub would rumble on the internal test, it was silent when playing the THX test.


There's a local Onkyo authorized service center, so I contacted them and had it repaired there. It was a totally different receiver after they put a new board and 4 capacitors in it. If John's really sounded as bad as he claims, I would be willing to bet that there was something wrong with his unit. He described his as sounding worse than his TV speakers, I can't see it sounding that bad unless there was a problem with his receiver.


I agree that the speakers that come with the HTiB are pretty inefficient, but are an improvement over TV speakers. I eventually replaced them with RTi-38 and 28 Polks for the front and surounds and a CSi-30 for the center. Not that I was that unhappy with the speakers, it's just that they went on clearance and I got a great deal on the Polks. And they were an improvement, but I've got more tied up in speakers than I originally spent on the HTiB. I think the Onkyo HTiB is a decent place to start with HT, especially if you want to start with surround sound.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

It was an HTS-650, which is only a couple years ago, the unit shared identical components to the HTS-760 (which I have heard several times). The center and rear speakers are the same, the front Left and Right speakers are a bit bigger (in the 760), but have the same cheap drivers and crossover. The power has been upped a tiny bit on the 760.


Im not blindly criticizing, the sub and receiver are fine at that price point. They were both better than what I had before ( A technics receiver, and a 50 RMS JBL sub).


I just am trying to "balance" all the oohs-ahhs with a dose of reality about this budget system.


----------



## corba

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*MidLife: Sounds like a reasonable analysis. My personal situation is that I'm trying to decide about whether it is worthwhile or not to replace my Onkyo 520 (the AVR from the 770 HTiB) with the Pioneer 1014. I have replaced the Onkyo speakers with Infinity Primus' (a C25, two 160's for the L/R fronts, two 150's for the L/R surrounds, and two 140's that are hooked up parallel for the surround back); and I am using the subwoofer from the 770 system. Everything sounds great to me, the question being would it sound 'greater' with the Pio 1014? The obvious way to know, of course, is to buy the 1014 with a 30-day return option and try it out, but if it were possible to find out otherwise I could buy it from J&R, say, at a better price.


I am really only interested in tv and movies, and don't do any serious music listening on the system. And the room is of moderate size (17x15, with 8.5 ceiling). As usual, I value the input from those of you (all of you, in fact!) more knowledgeable than I!*
i can give you first hand comparison of 770 vs 1014 has i've had my 1014 for 2 weeks,and 770 for 6 months.


at first, i said, 1014 is going back!, but after listening carefully to 1 week of HT and music mix, i'm selling the 770.


the 770 seems loud, but HARSH compared to the 1014, also, the 5 band EQ, and MACAC room correction really makes a difference in both HT and music listening.


i understand some amps, while having low THD, use internal feedback to get their power level. i assume this may be where the 770 gets harsh. it could just be a better design on 1014.


the display on the 1014 is smaller, making it hard to read from across the room, the only functions the OSD menus are used for are major config parameters.


i figure this amp will work for me until digital get more mainstream in a couple years.


if you can afford more than the 770, the 1014 is a great next step up.

the posts claim the 1014 is almost the same as the elite 52x, so there is a good price/performance value proposition there.


on my 770, i had bass -12, and treble -12, and i still was lacking mids on my ascend cbm-340' L/C/R, on the 1014 with auto-room EQ, speakers are very perfectly driven.


i never used the 770 speakers.


----------



## svadas

Simply can't be done. But that does not mean that the Onkyo system is a wise investment if you are just going to throw it out down the road. If you are out to just spend $400 and be done this is the system to get. I thought long and hard and decided against the Onkyo, but that is a choice each person needs to make.


Quote:

_Originally posted by jamawass_
*As I've stated here before show me a NEW 6.1 system for $399 that sounds better than the 770 with same no. of component inputs, s-video inputs, etc.
*


----------



## littlerm

I agree and appreciate John's opinion. I bought the HTS-770 last weekend as an upgrade for another box system, a Kenwood HTB-503. The Onkyo was not much better than the Kenwood system, but still a decent price for a decent all in one package. Don't be fooled into thinking you are getting a killer system for only $450. You're getting a $450 system for $450! It's much better than most other HTB systems with tiny speakers, which I think are a waste of money. My eyes really opened up when I auditioned a pair (only 2) of lower-end Polks (R30's) that totally thrashed the Onkyo speakers. Next, I heard a pair of Infinity Primus 250's (still lower-end in the Infinity line) by themselves and they sounded better than all 6.1 speakers of the HTS-770 system. Next, I tried 4 250's, a C25 center, and a 10" 100W sub on an Onkyo 502 receiver and was floored by the difference from the 770. I bought the 250's for $79 each, the C25 for $179, and the Onkyo 502 for $270. I am using my current Kenwood sub that I will eventually replace. Total price was less than $800 and it totally stomps the 770. But then again, it should, it costs more. But it was worth the extra money to me and a better deal than the 770 system (which is still a decent system for the money).


Is the 770 worth the money? Yes. Is it worthwhile to spend only $300 more on a much better system? That's for you to decide... It was for me.


Thanks for opening my eyes and ears John!


----------



## MidLife

got my 770 hooked up.

Traded out the center channel for a JBL EC35.

Sounds pretty good.

However, I was disappointed with the sub for music. Awful!

I will try some movie soundtracks for further analysis, but, the 770 sub was nowhere near as clean and punchy as the Dayton 10" or JBJ PB10 subs I have.

I will try moving it from the corner, but, just seemed like a rumbly mess to me with music. 

I will calibrate with SPL tonight and hopefully will report back with better results.


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by MidLife_
*got my 770 hooked up.

Traded out the center channel for a JBL EC35.

Sounds pretty good.

However, I was disappointed with the sub for music. Awful!

I will try some movie soundtracks for further analysis, but, the 770 sub was nowhere near as clean and punchy as the Dayton 10" or JBJ PB10 subs I have.

I will try moving it from the corner, but, just seemed like a rumbly mess to me with music. 

I will calibrate with SPL tonight and hopefully will report back with better results. *
You mean it doesn't compare well to a $100 sub? I thought I read somewhere that is compares well to $1200 subs


----------



## MidLife

I didn't like it for music. It seems it only output a single frequency.

I will calibrate tonight, but, out of the box, something just wasn't right.

I used the subwoofer cable that came with the unit.

All other speaker wires I used 18 gauge, less than ten feet, and the surrounds are 18 gauge too, but those little drivers don't need more than 18 gague.


----------



## jermy4

I was being sarcastic. In my opinion the sub is not that great. The 10" Dayton sub eats the Onkyo sub for breakfast.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Thats what I found, the Onkyo sub is only good for HT. And "good" on a relative sense only. Most all individually marketed HT subs are better.

Jermy how is that Dayton? Is it pretty big? is it boomy at all?


----------



## Megalith

I just got my Beta 360 today. Sounds ridiculously good and powerful, but I have two concerns.


The 360 has a recommended amplifier range of 10-200 watts, but the Onkyo receiver only has a max of 130 per channel. Isn't it dangerous to drive the 360 with it? The highest I usually turn up the amp is 60db...but at what db level would there be a risk of blowing out the Beta?


Second, I don't think anyone can really help with this...but I have the 360 on top of my TV. But when the center channel is playing loud, I can see waves roll across the image on the screen. Anyone has any ideas as to what could be causing this? The speaker is shielded, so I'm not sure what it is. Perhaps my TV is just screwy...there are natural instances of interference such as this, so there may be a bad transformer or something...


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by littlerm_
*I agree and appreciate John's opinion. I bought the HTS-770 last weekend as an upgrade for another box system, a Kenwood HTB-503. The Onkyo was not much better than the Kenwood system, but still a decent price for a decent all in one package. Don't be fooled into thinking you are getting a killer system for only $450. You're getting a $450 system for $450! It's much better than most other HTB systems with tiny speakers, which I think are a waste of money. My eyes really opened up when I auditioned a pair (only 2) of lower-end Polks (R30's) that totally thrashed the Onkyo speakers. Next, I heard a pair of Infinity Primus 250's (still lower-end in the Infinity line) by themselves and they sounded better than all 6.1 speakers of the HTS-770 system. Next, I tried 4 250's, a C25 center, and a 10" 100W sub on an Onkyo 502 receiver and was floored by the difference from the 770. I bought the 250's for $79 each, the C25 for $179, and the Onkyo 502 for $270. I am using my current Kenwood sub that I will eventually replace. Total price was less than $800 and it totally stomps the 770. But then again, it should, it costs more. But it was worth the extra money to me and a better deal than the 770 system (which is still a decent system for the money).


Is the 770 worth the money? Yes. Is it worthwhile to spend only $300 more on a much better system? That's for you to decide... It was for me.


Thanks for opening my eyes and ears John!*
Your welcome RM, a nice budget Infinity system can sound pretty spectacular once you get it all dialed in. And the upgrade path with Infinity is very impressive.

http://www.revelspeakers.com/products/index.asp 


Revel is the Cadillac of Infinity, I am eyeing their new Concerta line a bit. Its a brand new line, $10,000 dollar speakers in a plain laminate, and sold for $1200


It will be a few years for me, but we can always dream eh


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Thats what I found, the Onkyo sub is only good for HT. And "good" on a relative sense only. Most all individually marketed HT subs are better.

Jermy how is that Dayton? Is it pretty big? is it boomy at all?*
The Dayton is pretty good. It's tight and not very boomy. It is fairly small, but has a different shape than the Onkyo (it's more cube like).


I have it corner loaded in my 12 x 14 x 8 room and I downloaded some test tones to see what it could do. It puts out some serious SPL down to around 30Hz where it rolled off. I wish I would have done the same test with the Onkyo while I had it. I have a feeling that the Onkyo has very little output below 45Hz or so.


If I knew how, I would do a graph on it.


----------



## MidLife

The Onkyo sub runs a little HOT I think

and the SPL is not smooth through the range.

Especially around 60-70 HZ it goes off the scale and then rolls off around 40-35.

A little too boomy for me.

The Dayton is tighter down to 30 and has a smoother SPL through the range. It experiences annoying port noise, however.

Center channel was inadequate, and, despite the speakers are the same brand name, there was noticeable timbre mis-match accros the front.

The speakers [front/center, I do not use the surrounds, too small & cheap, plus I use in-ceiling mounted surrounds, Onkyo speakers seem to me to be inefficient. The amp can drive some much older 10" three-way bookshelfs I have to a higher db than the included Onkyo speakers with less power.

I agree with comments about the included center channel. Sub-par. The fronts are okay, and I substituted [for this demonstration last night, a Yamaha dual 4" center speaker. Improved the front soundstage noticeably.

And, since the timbre match with the included speakers didn't match, neither did the Yamaha, but, the pink noise-ball surround pass test did just as well. My 36" TV internal stereo speakers do sound better then the Onkyo center for dialogue.

Music sounded bad for a system this cost. I think a $200 stero would sound better.

This is definately a movie soundtrack system. It does very well for that. 6.1 is very nice, too. The ability to run discrete / matrix is very nice indeed.

The sub is tuned for the 60-70 range for dramatic effect, I suppose. In that sense, it is very loud at that frequency.

I prefer a sub with a smoother response through the range with good true LFE.

One last note, on FM stations sometimes there is a very low bass rumble [for effect when DJs are talking] and this is so pronounced on the Onkyo sub that it is distracting/annoying.

Now. The good part. After a full tweak, with measuring tape, SPL meter, SUB repositioning, and numerous testing, I find it to be quite an adequate system for the money, and I do not regret my purchase. I recommend this for a modest Movie Surround 6.1 system, and it is quite capable in that regaurd. I do not recommend this for Music only listenning, you can do much better for the money.

Room accoustics may help this system, too.


----------



## jamawass

Quote:

_Originally posted by MidLife_
*I didn't like it for music. It seems it only output a single frequency.

I will calibrate tonight, but, out of the box, something just wasn't right.

I used the subwoofer cable that came with the unit.

All other speaker wires I used 18 gauge, less than ten feet, and the surrounds are 18 gauge too, but those little drivers don't need more than 18 gague.*
Before you make final conclusions on the sub I would buy proper subwoofer cable. In my case I upgraded to a monster cable and it made a dramatic difference.


----------



## MidLife

that's interesting. I thought that the pre-out didn't really need a upgrade cable since there is no "power" running through it.

It did seem like a skimpy cable, though.

What are the particular requirements for a subwoofer cable?

Is 75ohm RG-6U with Fconnector adapters more suitable?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Any decent RCA cable will work.


You can even get decent ones at discount stores, I bought mine at "Big Lots" for $3.99.


cables are either up to specifications, or they aren't. They are not designed to "improve" or modify the sound. A real cheap one can sometimes cause problems, I wouldnt be suprised if Onkyo pays 8 cents for theirs.


But there is no audible difference between a 40 dollar RCA cable and a 4 dollar RCA cable.


----------



## jamawass

Quote:

_Originally posted by MidLife_
*that's interesting. I thought that the pre-out didn't really need a upgrade cable since there is no "power" running through it.

It did seem like a skimpy cable, though.

What are the particular requirements for a subwoofer cable?

Is 75ohm RG-6U with Fconnector adapters more suitable?

*
I don't know the answer to your questions all I can say is that after changing my cables I got a lot more differentiation in bass/explosion effects while watching movies. My reference movie was "I robot" in two scenes: the robot house demolition and the tunnel scenes. I bought this cable from Vanns.


----------



## jermy4

I found this interesting since we had a conversation going about the Onkyo sub. You'll notice that Morgan tested the amp at 75 watts and the sub rolled off at 40 Hz which is miserable for home theater use.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=224368


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Actually, 40hz is not awful, though most good subs these days go lower. Do you know that most commercial theaters roll off bass at 40hz? They consider lower than that potentially problematic. They dont need light fixtures and dentures coming loose hah.


----------



## MidLife

that's the 8" sub that comes with the 760?


The 770 has a 10" sub, I think, rated at 220 watts.


Which probably "equates" to around 100 watts....


----------



## Pion

I was about to buy the onkyo 770's but this thread has given me serious doubts. I'm not an audiophile but I know good (and bad) sound when I hear it. Should I forget the 770's and just get components instead? I looked at the infinity's at crutchfield and CC but they are close to $200 a pair, and $250 for the center! I will only use my HT system for movies, not music. So is it worth it to spend even more to upgrade, or are the onkyo's good enough?


----------



## jamawass

Quote:

_Originally posted by Pion_
*I was about to buy the onkyo 770's but this thread has given me serious doubts. I'm not an audiophile but I know good (and bad) sound when I hear it. Should I forget the 770's and just get components instead? I looked at the infinity's at crutchfield and CC but they are close to $200 a pair, and $250 for the center! I will only use my HT system for movies, not music. So is it worth it to spend even more to upgrade, or are the onkyo's good enough?*
I'm not an audiophile either but I love my 770. It has it's flaws but for the price you can't beat it. The overwhelming no. of reviews on the web (professional eg cnet.com and personal) are positive. Buy it at your local store, try it out with some dts material and if you don't like it take it back.


----------



## Pion

sounds like a good plan. I am getting free delivery of the speakers with my TV which is nice because the box is too heavy for me  . I have a small room and live on a 2nd floor apartment so I don't need or want to make a ton of noise. All I want is reasonably clear surround sound for watching movies.


----------



## Chris_Heekin

JohnR_In_LA, artisn, jermy, and all...


I think you've saved yet another person. I had committed in my mind to purchasing the Onkyo 770 for my new house when I moved in. Thank god it's taken a while, eh? 


Here's the setup I'm thinking of, which is modified from something you posted earlier...


Infinity Alpha 37C Center Channel

4 Infinity Primus 150 Bookshelf speakers

1 Dayton 10 inch sub

Receiver: Pioneer 1014


Now, I do have a potential problem. The room my wife has designated for my home theater is shaped VERY oddly for a theater.


Let me paint a mental picture: To the left of the TV wall(call this the north wall), the north wall has a door. I have less than a foot of working room between the west wall and the door, making bookshelf speakers very tricky. Also, there's an open door on the southern-most portion of the west wall, where the stairs lead to. The couch goes in the middle of the south wall; again the bookshelf speakers are a problem. The WAF would be a major problem  Oh well, she's been supportive of my woodworking hobby...and my penmaking business...and my beer brewing...and my homegrown HTPC...and Everquest....and giving in to allowing a dedicated home theater room in the first place...I'm not going to screw up a good thing 


The saving grace is that the walls are the Corning Basement Finishing system (potentially leading to TOO dead of a room perhaps). I do have the option of opening holes in the walls, making a shelf between the vertical 2X6's, and putting the bookshelf speakers there. Then, I'd create a cherry box to go over the hole with acoustically transparent mesh over the top. However, if there's a better option I'd like to avoid it.


What's your feeling about replacing the Primus 150's with satellites? I've done a little bit of research and found the Athena Micra6 satellites; how would the Micra6 compare to the above setup?


If the Micra6 doesn't compare well, are there any satellite-based systems you might suggest in its place?


Again, thanks for any suggestions!


EDIT: Artisn, I know from reading around a little that you're very opposed to satellites due to localization problems. Do you have an in-wall speaker solution you would recommend?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Oh Chris, dont do it man, dont go below 5.25 inch main drivers. Already your giving up lower midrange at the Primus size. If you go smaller, manufacturers start playing tricks to get their speakers to sound like they have lower midrange, when the fact is, the cones can't handle it. The size of the cabinet is equally important.


Can't you get little swivel wall mounts for the speakers? One brand is called Omnimounts. At one point I bought some white Boston Acoustics CR-65s, and had them mounted.


They were similar to these:
http://www.bostonacoustics.com/hs_pr...9&CategoryID=4 


I think mine were about 130 pair.


Since they were white, they blended in well.


Also, inwall speakers are better than satellites, if setup halfway decently.


----------



## akh

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Any decent RCA cable will work.


But there is no audible difference between a 40 dollar RCA cable and a 4 dollar RCA cable.*
Exactly.


There may be something physically wrong with a supercheap generic but any decent RCA-RCA cable will sound exactly the same whether it costs 4.00, 40.00, or 400.00


All the gak about 'dedicated' sub cable is marketing hype. Same as snake oil.


There might be a durability difference in some of the more expensive cables, but unless you are taking down you system every night, wrapping cables, and carting it all around then that is pretty much a non-issue in a 'set and forget' setting.


-AKH


----------



## Chris_Heekin

John --


I went by the house this morning. I don't have nearly the room behind the walls as I thought -- the south wall is right up against the concrete. This nixes the in-wall idea.


The room is 11X13 -- fairly small. Would the satellites still suffer in that small of a room?


----------



## littlerm

The satellites will lack the midrange no matter what size the room is.


----------



## Chris_Heekin

Ok....so no satellites.


What about an on-wall speaker like the OWS-1? That stays within the Infinity camp, and solves my major concern about the depth of the Primus 150's. John, artisn, anyone familiar with these?


----------



## jermy4

Do you have a link to those on-walls you are mentioning?


----------



## jermy4

Also, no one said you need to get Infinitys. Just try to stay with speakers that are from companies that specialize in speakers.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

The OWS-1s have nice drivers, and go down to 70HZ, which is reasonable.

Plan how to best point them towards the seats, especially the tweeter, since it does not look like that tweeter swivels (more expensive onwalls have swiveling tweeters).

http://www.infinitysystems.com/homea...?prod=OWS-1BLK


----------



## jermy4

John is right, you'll want to make sure you place those correctly. They do look like nice speakers though.


----------



## Chris_Heekin

Alrighty then! I think I've made my decisions.


Thanks for getting me to think outside of the box! Or at least outside of in-the-box!


Which would still be outside the box, because outside of inside is still....


oh never mind I'm rambling....


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by jermy4_
*The Dayton is pretty good. It's tight and not very boomy. It is fairly small, but has a different shape than the Onkyo (it's more cube like).


I have it corner loaded in my 12 x 14 x 8 room and I downloaded some test tones to see what it could do. It puts out some serious SPL down to around 30Hz where it rolled off. I wish I would have done the same test with the Onkyo while I had it. I have a feeling that the Onkyo has very little output below 45Hz or so.


If I knew how, I would do a graph on it.*
I did a FR graph on the Dayton in my room from my listening position. It appears that I have some room/placement issues since there is a big bump in the FR. Please keep in mind that this was not a max SPL test. See the attachment for the graph.


----------



## jermy4

Here is another chart taken 24" from the subwoofer.


----------



## cowsclaw

so what's another good sub (for under $200) other than the Dayton? Or should I just go for the $125 Dayton?


How often does the Dayton go on sale?


Also,where can I get the Panasonic XR50 for less than $270? I read a few posts where people were saying they got it for less, so Id feel ripped off now if I bought it for more than that.


Thanks!


----------



## USSValor

I just got home from Fry's. I have an Onkyo 770 box lying in my living room unopened. Thanks for making my day, guys . I knew it wasn't a reference system, but geez, what can you ask for $399?


Anyhoo, I'm going to return it in the morning. There's a Yamaha Receiver (open box 5730 model I think) there for $150, and I found speakers locally for $350 at http://www.craigslist.org/sfc/ele/58812777.html 


I am going to spend approximately what I did at Frys because I won't be paying sales tax on the speakers. Thanks for the help guys. Some of you are brutal, but honest, and I appreciate that.


----------



## jermy4

Wow, I think you're really going to like those Polks! Congrats!


----------



## Megalith

I scratched the Panasonic off my list after I found out that it doesn't even offer an 80hz crossover, apparently; only 100hz and up.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Another unsatisfied customer, congratulations on your pending return


----------



## Daniel Eddy

Quote:

_Originally posted by cowsclaw_
*so what's another good sub (for under $200) other than the Dayton? Or should I just go for the $125 Dayton?


How often does the Dayton go on sale?


Also,where can I get the Panasonic XR50 for less than $270? I read a few posts where people were saying they got it for less, so Id feel ripped off now if I bought it for more than that.


Thanks!*
I am not sure when the Dayton goes on sale, but I love mine.

Check out jr.com for the Panasonic XR50. You'll have to call them to get a price.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

That Velodyne 10 inch that goes for 129.00 on the Internet. Cant remember the name ... DP-10 or VP-10 or something


----------



## USSValor

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Another unsatisfied customer, congratulations on your pending return *
I have to admit that I am neither satisfied nor unsatisfied. I have based my decision on reading this whole entire thread in one night and made me uneasy about my purchase. I have never listened to the item. It was just a highly recommended "box" system and I bought it because it was "easy."


----------



## Blake Allen

Hi,


Has anyone went ahead and bought the Primus 150s/160s for their front channel and the Alpha center (the two way one, not the 37c)? If so, can you confirm that they match okay? I'm getting Primus 160s for my fronts and Crutchfield has the Alpha center for $130 right now, but I'll go with the Primus center if there is a very noticeable or annoying mismatch between the Primus bookshelves and the Alpha Center.


Thanks,

Blake


----------



## millerwill

Can't say anything about the alpha center. I got the c25 primus center at compusa for $90, and have all primus speakers with it: 2 160's for L/R fronts, 2 150's for L/R surrounds, and 2 140's for L/R surround backs. It makes an excellent package! (Driven by a Pio 1014 AVR) I"m very pleased with the overall package. (The subwoofer is a 10"-er from the Onkyo 770 system, so it may get replaced in the future.)


----------



## powert

This is on sale this week. Good Price for a B & M.


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

they also have the 10% off coupon this weekend, it ends today, so that's an extra $39.99 off. sounds like a great deal to me...


----------



## millerwill

From the info I picked up from this and other threads (thanks guys!) I have replaced most of my Onkyo 770 with an all Infinity Primus system (c25 center, 160's for L/R fronts, 150's for L/R surrounds, 140's for L/R rears, and a Pioneer 1014 AVR). I am now thinking to replace the subwoofer from the 770 system, and I would value your opinions!


I can get an Infinity PS-10 for $199; is that sufficient for my room (17'X14"x8.5 ceiling, i.e. ~ 2200 cu ft)? Is it better than the Dayton 10, which can be had now for $125? Also, I can get the Infinity PS-12 for $270; is it worth the $70? more than the PS-10? Any thoughts would be appreciated!


----------



## dustman52

The OP is correct about the speakers that Onkyo includes in their HTIB. They just don't have cover the highs that well which makes things sound muddled. Also the dialog in movies can be a problem which has been previously mentioned. However if you buy a HTIB box I compare it to buying a Nissan Sentra instead of a Nissan Altima. You know you're not going to get all the bells and whistles, but you also know you're getting something that will get the job done.


I am the happy owner of 2 HT-760's. I scored one with free shipping for $350 a year ago and the other one for only $245 about 10 months ago. For a while I was under the ignorance is bliss category, but the more I listened the more I realized I was missing out. So I have been keeping my eyes open for bargains to upgrade the speakers. I picked up a pair of polk r30's for under $50 a piece. While not a huge upgrade they have solved the dialog problem, and I hear things in surround sound I did not hear before. I plan on looking for some r-15's for the surronds and keeping my eyes open for a new center channel for each system. IMO you can't go wrong with the Onkyo HTIB because you can always upgrade it in the future, or if you have the extra money to spend avoid the HTIB because you can have a better set up if you buy the components separately. In the end it depends on your budget and if you can be happy driving a Sentra or if you need the Altima to be happy  .


----------



## solderguy

Quote:

_Originally posted by dustman52_
*In the end it depends on your budget and if you can be happy driving a Sentra or if you need the Altima to be happy  .*
Heh-heh, I've been pleased with my Sentra bought new in 93, 211k miles on it now.

I'm also the happy owner of an Onkyo 760 package with the six speakers upgraded to Infinitys. At 11am yesterday, Goodwill became the happy owner of the Onkyo speaker set.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*From the info I picked up from this and other threads (thanks guys!) I have replaced most of my Onkyo 770 with an all Infinity Primus system (c25 center, 160's for L/R fronts, 150's for L/R surrounds, 140's for L/R rears, and a Pioneer 1014 AVR). I am now thinking to replace the subwoofer from the 770 system, and I would value your opinions!


I can get an Infinity PS-10 for $199; is that sufficient for my room (17'X14"x8.5 ceiling, i.e. ~ 2200 cu ft)? Is it better than the Dayton 10, which can be had now for $125? Also, I can get the Infinity PS-12 for $270; is it worth the $70? more than the PS-10? Any thoughts would be appreciated!*
I have the equivelent of the PS-12 (Mine is called the IL-120), and the room optimization, plus TWICE the wattage, plus a larger and better cone, is definitely worth 70 dollars.

Heres a pic of mine:
http://forum.**********/photopost/sho...t=1&thecat=500 


Check to see if it comes with the hand-held RABOS meter for room optimization though. When I bought mine, it was a seperate purchase. BTW my sub cost me 400 bucks, used (with meter).


This sub would absolutely double your overall system performance, and is a great compliment to your clean but bass-lacking Primus


----------



## millerwill

John: Thanks for the comments! Seems like I can't shake 'up-grade-itus' : I've also been reading about the SVS PB10 subwoofer that seems to be a real step up from the Infinity PS-12, and also a steep step up in price, from about $310 (delivered) for the PS-12 to ~ $480 (delivered) for the SVS. Any thoughts about whether this more expensive SW worth be worth it with the Primus speakers?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

What you will probably find, is the PB10 will go a little lower, but wont be quite as refined (ie: musical).


That said, I havent heard the SVS. Does it have room optimization? If your gonna spend real money on a sub, room optimization is a feature I would want.


FWIW, I upgraded my sub several times, until i got the Infinity, and have felt no need to do so, since.


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*What you will probably find, is the PB10 will go a little lower, but wont be quite as refined (ie: musical).


That said, I havent heard the SVS. Does it have room optimization? If your gonna spend real money on a sub, room optimization is a feature I would want.


FWIW, I upgraded my sub several times, until i got the Infinity, and have felt no need to do so, since.*
John, Thanks again! In a review (Secrets of HT) of the PS12, SVS PB10, Velodyne VRP-1200, and a JBL E150P, the SVS came out the best by a good margin, but the PS12 was a very respectible second. The SVS has a FLAT response down to 20 Hz, while the PS12 rolls off ~ 27 or so. What this means in practical listening, I of course do not know.


My AVR is the Pioneer 1014, which has MCACC, which I is an antomatic room equalization system. Would it take care of this for the sub?


----------



## millerwill

John, one more question (and thanks for your patience!): as you can tell, I've really got the 'up-grade bug', and have also been thinking that since the center bears the brunt of the normal sound, an up-grade there would be worth it. The Inf alpha 37c doesn't seem to be available any more (at least at a reasonable price), but the Beta C360 can be had for about $230 (delivered) and seems to be about the same product. Do you think the Beta would work well with my Primus set-up (160's for L/R fronts, 150's as surrounds)?


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*John, Thanks again! In a review (Secrets of HT) of the PS12, SVS PB10, Velodyne VRP-1200, and a JBL E150P, the SVS came out the best by a good margin, but the PS12 was a very respectible second. The SVS has a FLAT response down to 20 Hz, while the PS12 rolls off ~ 27 or so. What this means in practical listening, I of course do not know.


My AVR is the Pioneer 1014, which has MCACC, which I is an antomatic room equalization system. Would it take care of this for the sub?*
I'm pretty sure that MCACC does not do anything to the subwoofer.


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by jermy4_
*I'm pretty sure that MCACC does not do anything to the subwoofer.*
Then how does one do 'room equalization' for a SW? Is this a feature that must be built into the Sub, or the AVR?


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*Then how does one do 'room equalization' for a SW? Is this a feature that must be built into the Sub, or the AVR?*
The easiest way is with a parametric EQ and a SPL meter. The BFD is popular because it only costs around $100.


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by jermy4_
*The easiest way is with a parametric EQ and a SPL meter. The BFD is popular because it only costs around $100.*
What does BFD stand for? (I have a SPL meter.)


----------



## jermy4

BFD = Behringer Feedback Destroyer

http://www.behringer.com/DSP1124P/index.cfm?lang=ENG


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*Then how does one do 'room equalization' for a SW? Is this a feature that must be built into the Sub, or the AVR?*
MCACC has 5 modifiable bands on the 1014, right? I am not sure what the lowest freqency is, but the frequency cant really be moved around like on a sub optimization.


The infinity sub lets you choose what frequency you want to modify, to take care of the worst bass spot in the frequency response.


So you use the Sub adjustment to get your sub flat, then you run MCACC to get the rest of the speakers flat, and matching well with the sub.


They work together...


----------



## victor_c26

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mathew J_
*I love it how you use the term "real" when describing anything other than those which come with the onkyo HTIB....


while I understand where you are comming from, and agree to a degree....your solutions or alternative offerings IMHO suck from either a price or a convenience standpoint when compared to the Onkyo...either people settle with a stereo setup, order parts from multiple places and pray that they all work correctly or deal with RMAs and what not, or pay considerably more for something which in the end they might not want nor need....


I think it depends on what one is looking for, if this is to be primarily for movies then they Onkyo is a darn good setup for the cost, but for music it might not be the best.


I demoed the 770 today against a few other systems that cost a good deal more and honestly the 770 sounded as good if not better*
I just had to quote this, and I totally agree. And in responce to the people that say music doesn't sound all that good on the 770:


If listening to music on the 770 set is such a problem, then why not just buy a pair of speakers that sound great with music, and connect them to the Speaker B connectors in the TX-SR502?


That way you can use Speaker A for movies, and Speaker B for 2-channel music sources.


Sure, switching to the Speaker B terminals will cut off the sub, but if you buy a rather large pair of speakers, do you really need a sub?


----------



## millerwill

I agree with Victor above. For the price--$450, or less now--one really can't do better than the 770. I started with it, but got the 'up-grade bug' and have moved beyond it, but only because I was willing to spend more (the sub I just splurged on cost $25 more than the whole 770 system, and my total investment is about 3x the 770). But I certainly don't regret having gotten the 770; it was my entry into this world, and I've sold off its parts to various friends and lost no more than $50 from my initial investment in it. So I still think the 770 is a great product for its price.


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

i personally think the Yamaha 450 is better, and about $100 less if you look around, but that's just my opinion. and that's coming from someone that has always used and always recommended Onkyo receivers over any other manufacturer...


----------



## gxshiem

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*John, Thanks again! In a review (Secrets of HT) of the PS12, SVS PB10, Velodyne VRP-1200, and a JBL E150P, the SVS came out the best by a good margin, but the PS12 was a very respectible second. The SVS has a FLAT response down to 20 Hz, while the PS12 rolls off ~ 27 or so. What this means in practical listening, I of course do not know.


My AVR is the Pioneer 1014, which has MCACC, which I is an antomatic room equalization system. Would it take care of this for the sub?*
Hey millerwill, did you decide with which subwoofer you're going to go with? I'm also thinking about getting the PS-12, but I'm also looking at the JBL E-250P (it's $100 cheaper and haven't heard anything bad about them). I still can't decide which one I'm going to take though. Anyone else have some input?


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by gxshiem_
*Hey millerwill, did you decide with which subwoofer you're going to go with? I'm also thinking about getting the PS-12, but I'm also looking at the JBL E-250P (it's $100 cheaper and haven't heard anything bad about them). I still can't decide which one I'm going to take though. Anyone else have some input?*
Yes, I splurged and got the SVS PS10-ISD. It is quite a bit more (~$475 delivered) but I convinced myself that a couple of hundred bucks was worth it over the long haul (we are all good at rationalizing these things, aren't we!). More seriously, I have the relatively inexpensive Infinity Primus speakers, which are extremely clear and neutral but short on base, so I felt it worth while to get quite a good SW to fill them out. It won't arrive for about a week, so I will see how it works out.


I have no doubt that the Infinity PS12 would have done very well (and it can be had for ~ $305 delivered), but the reviews clearly show the SVS to be better. How much better, in a practical sense, I really don't know, but I bit anyway! And as you noted, the JBL is less and also probably pretty good, though the reviews here too say that the PS12 is better.


----------



## gxshiem

Wow, way to go millerwill. Unfortunately, for me the price difference between the PB10 and the PS-12 is substantial. I guess I'll go with the PS12. Is the $305 for the PS-12 from Ebay? Becuase that's the only place where I can find the PS-12 at that price. Almost anything will do better than the Onkyo HTS770's sub. I think the PS-12 will be a great addition to my Primus speakers.


----------



## millerwill

gxshiem: Yes, I agree that the PS-12 is an excellent choice, probably the best per dollar. I almost went with it, but .... . The place I was planning to get it is from is soundsdirtcheap.com; price is 270 + 35 shipping. I know, this sounds like a flakey site, but I bought some of my Primus speakers from them, and everything went perfectly. Good luck, and let me hear how it all goes for you.


----------



## btacker

Alright, save me from a 770! 


I guess I'm like everyone.... trying to get the best bang for the buck.


I read every post. Here is what I get is the best of the cheap setups:


RECEIVER

Panasonic XR-50

NOTE: I can't find this receiver in stock ANYWHERE. Is there different one that would work well?


SPEAKERS

Athena

1 Athena AS-C1

4 Athena AS-B1


OR


Infinity

1 Infinity Primus C25

4 Infinity Primus 150


SUBWOOFER

Dayton Sub

Infinity PS-12


Other suggestions are welcome.


Anyway, I hit a bunch of sites and found these prices on just the speakers.

-------------------------------

abesofmaine

1 Athena AS-C1 $128.99

4 Athena AS-B1 $229.98


$358.97

-------------------------------

soundsdirtcheap

1 Infinity Primus C25 $109.99

4 Infinity Primus 150 $279.98


$389.97

I checked and CompUSA doesn't have any 

-------------------------------




Can anyone find better prices on these?


I am trying to put this together for under $700, and so far, I'm not seeing how that will be possible.


Thanks for any help you can offer.


----------



## jermy4

If I were you I would start off with a 2.1 or 3.1 setup and go from there if you can't get everything all at once.


You could look for a SA-XR25, SA-XR45, or SA-XR70 receiver. JVC also makes a similar receiver RX-F10.

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3978103 

http://www.refurbdepot.com/productde...d=pricegrabber 

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDispla...130&PMNID=1121


----------



## hellonewbie

compusa.com has primus speakers:


C25: $79.98.

150: $49.98.


----------



## btacker

compusa.com requires in store pickup. There are not any primus speakers in dallas, austin, or houston.


I guess I will have to wait until someone has a sale.


----------



## BB774

I'm jumpin' in.


I have surfed these posts for about 3 days now and have got a lot of good information. Trying to figure out the best combo for music listening and home theatre. Maybe a dumb question, but I have an older pair of Yamaha NS-A638 speakers that still sound pretty good. Could I just use these as my fronts and concentrate on the center, sub and rears??


Be kind to the newbie....


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

not to be rude, but you should start your own thread about this in the speakers section, this section is for HTiB. your question doesn't really have anything to do with the topic of this thread, or HTiB in general, you will get more help about speakers (that don't pertain to a HTiB system) over there...


----------



## BB774

Guess I didn't tell ya' that I've been looking at the YHT-755, my fault. But as others have posted here, JohnR has got me thinking of putting together a component system. I will take your advice and start a thread over there. Any advice on the 755?


----------



## btacker

Alright... I'm gonna get:


6 Infinity Primus 150s - $360 shipped

10" Dayton Sub - $125 + shpping


Will the Panny SA-XR25 befine?


Which receiver do you recommend? I have around $300 to play with here...


This is mainly a theater system. I may get that Infinity Alpha Center, but I was worried about it matching the 150s. Does anyone know if that is an issue?


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by btacker_
*Alright... I'm gonna get:


6 Infinity Primus 150s - $360 shipped

10" Dayton Sub - $125 + shpping


Will the Panny SA-XR25 befine?


Which receiver do you recommend? I have around $300 to play with here...


This is mainly a theater system. I may get that Infinity Alpha Center, but I was worried about it matching the 150s. Does anyone know if that is an issue?*
I think the Primus C25 center is better than the standard alpha center. Of course the alpha 37c is MUCH better if you are able to find (and want to pay for) one of these.


Re the AVR, if you are able to squeeze a bit above $300, you could get the Pioneer 1014 and have a MUCH better unit. (There's always this type of escalation right?!)


----------



## btacker

Infinity Alpha Center

Â» frequency response 55-22,000 Hz (Â±3dB)

Â» 8-ohm impedance

Â» sensitivity 89 dB

Infinity Primus C25

Â» frequency response 80-20,000 Hz (Â±3dB)

Â» 8-ohm impedance

Â» sensitivity 90 dB


I was thinking the Alpha because it has better frequency response... it isn't better?


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by btacker_
*Infinity Alpha Center

Â» frequency response 55-22,000 Hz (Â±3dB)

Â» 8-ohm impedance

Â» sensitivity 89 dB

Infinity Primus C25

Â» frequency response 80-20,000 Hz (Â±3dB)

Â» 8-ohm impedance

Â» sensitivity 90 dB


I was thinking the Alpha because it has better frequency response... it isn't better?*
Good point! I had not seen the specs on the alpha center. Strange, then, that the retail prices that I have seen are higher for the C25 than the alpha center. But the specs you quote would also convince me. (I have just been able to find a Alpha C37 used and am going with that.)


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

i remember just reading somewhere that build quality on the alphas wasn't that good, the person that made the comment said that most of the alphas that were on display where he went were damaged.


don't get me wrong, i know the display speakers take a beating, between employees turning them all the way up, to that kid that feels the need to poke everything in sight. i'm sure that may have been part of the reason they were damamged, and i'm not trying to say they're bad speakers, i've never heard them myself.


it did get me thinking though...


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Inexpensive Infinitys dont have a great cosmetic build quality. They are a cut above the Onkyo's I would say, and they are reliable ..


Their drivers are very nice, but super-light-weight ( this is really a positive point), so the kids poking the tweeters at Circuit City tends to succeed in denting them.


A respecting owner would not let this happen though.


----------



## btacker

So, I heard the Primus 150s today at circuit city... They sounded really nice, but they seemed to not have as much mid range as the other bookshelf speakers ( Polk, Sony, KLH ), but they definately have a clearer, crisper sound.


Anyway, now I'm concerned about the dayton sub. Will the dayton sub be enough to fill out the Primus 150s or is there another sub that would be better?


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

you could always use the 250's up front, the 150's should be fine for your surrounds, but that's just my opinion...


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by btacker_
*

Anyway, now I'm concerned about the dayton sub. Will the dayton sub be enough to fill out the Primus 150s or is there another sub that would be better?*
Probably not more than twice the price, i.e., something ~ $300.


----------



## Kix

btacker:


This is a Great sub that will give the dayton a run for the money...

http://www.digital1234.com/product.jsp?x=VX10


----------



## btacker

Alright, lets say I have $300....


Would the PS-10 be a good choice or would it be worth the other $50 to go to the PS-12?


Is there some other sub that would work well?


----------



## btacker

Alright. I will go with it. I have to have good deep bass. To me, movies and music just aren't as good with out it.


1 - Primus C25

4 - Primus 150s

1 - Primus PS-12


$650


I will try this out, and if I don't like the sound, I will pick up some 250s or 360s later and move the 150s. I still don't know if I should get the infinity alpha or the c25, but I guess I will go with the c25 since it goes with the set. I can't find a 37c anywhere.


Now what about a receiver? I went to Fry's and played with the Panasonic XR50. I just don't really like the feel of it.


I know this may sound funny, but I like old school big heavy receivers with lots of buttons.


What suggestions do you have? I have to keep this system under $1k so we have around $300 to play with.


(Deep inside, I still question whether this is the right thing to do... that onkyo 770 for $360 shipped sure is tempting  )


----------



## millerwill

I think you can get an Onkyo 601 for $300, and that might be the best for this figure. The Pio 1014 is better, but is about $75 more (I believe).


----------



## jermy4

Go for the Onkyo 602

($275 refurb at ecost)
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/ecsplash/...sp?dpno=496061


----------



## millerwill

(I meant the 602--thanks jermy4 for the correction!)


Well, btacker, if it will make you feel any better, I did get the 770 HTiB as my intro into this game, and then through this thread and others, got the up-grade bug. I first got a Primus C25 center, and boy, did it make a difference! That is what hooked me. Then I got Primus 160's for the L/R fronts, 150's for the L/R surrounds, and 140's for the R/R back surrounds. Then I got a Pioneer 1014 AVR, and most recently replaced the Onkyo sub with a SVS PB10-IDS (probably the highest quality of any item in the whole collection), and have now just recently gotten a used Alpha 37C center to replace the C25! What a journey it has been! I have sold all the 770 items for just about what I paid for it (lost less than $100), but the total outlay has come to about 3x the price of the 770 HTiB. And I have all of you in this thread to thank (or blame--not really!) for this odyssey. I think I'm ready to rest and enjoy it for a while!


----------



## JuiceRocket

John, look what you've done!!!  This thread should be renamed to "how do I set up my Infinity Primus system", and moved to Home Theater General. 


-JR


----------



## JnC

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*Ohhh go with the PS-12....

Room correction circuitry, 500 watt digital amp, whats not to like?*
I don't think the PS-12 has room correction circuitry. Just a variable xover, 180 deg phase switch, etc. No correction EQ.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Dang JnC is right, I got the model confused with the SW-12. I thought that deal was too good to be true 



Sorry, the PS-12 its a 300 watt sub, with no room correction


----------



## btacker

I found this package deal. Would it be as good as the infinities or better?


Pioneer VSX-1014TX-K

Klipsch SC-3 Synergy Series Center Channel

Klipsch SS-1 Synergy Series Surround Speakers

Klipsch SB2 2-way Bookshelf Speakers (pair)

Velodyne VX-10 10" Class A/B Subwoofer, Video Gray

$1200


Or I saw a post for HTD


Pioneer VSX-1014TX-K

Level THREE "Combo X" 5.1 Set- Dark Cherry Wood

$1300


There are just too many options and I keep "upgrading".


----------



## BB774

O.K. So back to HTIaB. Does anyone have any thoughts/experience/opinions with the YHT-755??


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by BB774_
*O.K. So back to HTIaB. Does anyone have any thoughts/experience/opinions with the YHT-755??*
The center (3" drivers), surrounds (?), & sub (6 1/2" driver) all look really weak.


----------



## vgs86

I have read this thread at least twice. There are great recommendations. Unfortunately, most of the prices are stale. The CompUSA is out of HT business and they have no inventory. Neither CircuitCity nor BestBuy has any great deals. Crutchfield does not have any worthwhile special. Most of the deals mentioned here have dried up. Dayton or Velodyne subs are now at least $150 with shipping. Most of the Infinity Primus from CompUSA or CircuitCity are no longer attrictively priced.


We are just finishing the basement and I will be hanging Infocus 4805 there. I bought that projector sight unseen due to glowing review in this forum. I hope I can make use of this forum in purchasing a surround sound system.


Our expectation for the surround sound system is not much. We are still using TV speakers; so anything is going to be an upgrade!


The Onkyo 770 can be had very cheaply. The refurbished one are running $300 delivered to my door here in Mass with no tax. I am willing to spend more for getting a lot better system but after adding the shipping and running the current prices on google, I have found not found any great setup at comparable prices.


For example, the research on this forum leads me to believe that HSU+Panny XR70 would be great but then I am talking about $560(direct) + $340(JnR). The difference between $800 and $300 is substantial. I really would like to see if I can find a cheaper setup.


I would like to see if JohnR can give me some suggestions based upon current deals. Otherwise, I will be reluctantly joining the Onkyo 770 crowd :-(


- Vikas


----------



## btacker

I just ordered my stuff:


4 Infinity Primus 150s for $240 shipped

1 SVS PB10 subwoofer for $472 shipped

1 Pioneer 1014 for $398 shipped


I still need a center channel, but I know that this system will sound great and last me for years to come. I am going to try to use a 150 for the center. I may just end up order 2 more of the to give me a 6.1 setup. After spending all saturday listening to speakers, I decided that the 150s were a good deal at $60 each.


SVSPB10 is probably more than I need, but I really love deep loud BASS, so I decided I had to have it. You can go cheaper if you want.


I'm going with the Optoma H31 projector because it has a little more light output and better contrast.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Thats a GREAT way to make up for small bookshelf speakers:

Get a powerful sub.


It also roughly doubles the total output of your system.



Now what I would do .. .. is keep an eye out for a nice center speaker, like the Beta 360.. either pre-owned local, or on closeout on the Net.


This will completely open up the movie dialog, and give you a powerful center to match your powerful sub.


Since 70% of your average movie comes out of the center, this is another great place to go for the upgrade...


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

you can find the Beta C360 for $222.22 here at digital1234.com, but for some unknown reason they're blowing out the Beta C250 for $129.99 here . the 360 would be better, if you want larger drivers, but the 250 for that price is a steal! that's actually less than the Primus C25, and it's much better, you should definitely look into it...


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Nice find 516.The midrange driver on the C360 is of note, because midrange is critical on voices...


----------



## btacker

Man... you guys are too much! 


Thanks for the leads on the center channel. I really want the C360 now. I will have to save up for it and get it next month.


So the C360 will match fine with the Primus 150s?


----------



## MidLife

I got the JBL EC35. Dialogue is true.

Timbre doesn't match, but, it sounds alot better than the stock speaker.

The timbre didn't match with the original setup either, and I don't know why.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

LOL yea, you DO NOT want to match the timbre on the Onkyos, so your fine ..


----------



## Steezus Christ

I've been using the Onkyo 770 for about 2 weeks now and I think that for them money, the system kicks ass for movies and tv. Playing music isn't the greatest, but it is good enough, and I have not yet upgraded my speaker cable or that center channel. For the price you pay, it is a hell of a deal.


----------



## Dzejms

Quote:

_Originally posted by Steezus Christ_
*I've been using the Onkyo 770 for about 2 weeks now and I think that for them money, the system kicks ass for movies and tv. Playing music isn't the greatest, but it is good enough, and I have not yet upgraded my speaker cable or that center channel. For the price you pay, it is a hell of a deal.*
Especially when you can get it for 270 Refurbed .


-Dzejms


----------



## solderguy

Quote:

_Originally posted by Dzejms_
*Especially when you can get it for 270 Refurbed .


-Dzejms*
Geez, if the price drops any lower it'll be worth buying just so your kids can play with the box


----------



## millerwill

I've been in the 'up-grade mode' the last few weeks and have a Primus C25 center speaker I'll be interested in selling; I've had it less than 6 months, and it's like new. It makes a great enhancement to the Onkyo 770, so if any of you 770 owners are interested, give me a PM.


----------



## jermy4

Post it for free here: http://avsf.videogon.com/cgi-bin/buy.pl 


The forum frowns upon posts for selling stuff.


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by jermy4_
*

The forum frowns upon posts for selling stuff.*
Oops, sorry; didn't know that.


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*Oops, sorry; didn't know that.*
 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/rules.html


----------



## mike241

Hey

Quick question

Is there any difference between the $270 refurb and the normal new model which costs $450 ?

Would you buy the refurb or the new one?


----------



## jermy4

I bought my dad a refurb 760 and you could not tell it was not new other than the refurb sticker on the box.


----------



## DaveInBerlinNJ

I'll second that, on the 760 I got last year. I couldn't find a thing wrong with it.


Refurbs make me nervous, but this one worked out very well.


----------



## Dzejms

Quote:

_Originally posted by DaveInBerlinNJ_
*I'll second that, on the 760 I got last year. I couldn't find a thing wrong with it.


Refurbs make me nervous, but this one worked out very well.*
Third! Just got my reconditioned 770, The only thing "wrong" is one of the rubber "spokes" that hold the the center channel grille is broken, and it didn't come with batteries for the remote. I have extra batteries, and I never plan on taking my grilles off, and I paid half the MSRP. Nice!


-Dzejms


----------



## tehfoiler

I bought the refurb, I post impressions in that post once I get it, but I got it for 285 shipped, I couldn't pass that up.


----------



## jkhering

Do yourself a favor, and use the money you've saved by getting the refurb deal to upgrade the center channel. I was perfectly happy with my 770 until reading through this thread. It made me realize what I was missing. I recently upgraded to a Polk CS1 (HHgregg sells it for $130, so I got it for $125 from CircuityCity via their price match) and the difference is astounding. I also upgraded the fronts to R30's to get a better match with the center and that helped alot too.


Nothing "wrong" with how the 770 sounds really, but as many others have said throughout this thread, upgrading the center channel is well worth your money - it made a bigger difference than I expected (even my wife noticed the improvement right away, and that's saying alot!).


----------



## Blato

Before you spend any money to "upgrade" the center channel, just try increasing the level on the stock center by +5. This made a huge difference in the clarity of dialog on movies for my system.


Also, make sure you don't mount the rear-ported speaker right up against the wall. Give them a couple of inches to "breathe".


----------



## tehfoiler

I probably won't be upgrading for atleast 2 years. I'm in college right now, and a dorm or apartment bedroom isn't the best place of HT, still tho it's nice to have a base system.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by jkhering_
*.


Nothing "wrong" with how the 770 sounds really*
If there was nothing wrong with Onkyo speakers, the difference between them and these other inexpensive speakers wouldn't be "astounding".


If the Onkyo's were designed properly, they would sound somewhat competitive with a low end Infinity, or a low end Polk. They are roughly the same size, etc.


The fact is, they arent designed properly, thus the "astounding" difference.


----------



## cheapbast4115

JohnR_IN_LA


"Nothing wrong" is a very subjective phrase. I have spent a good deal of time and money on home audio gear. Even my wife has come to enjoy the benefits of surround sound music and soundtracks- Yet to her there is still "nothing wrong" with TV Speakers. She readily acknowledges an improvement and yet is quite content either way.


It has been a while since I read all of the posts on this thread but I don't think a single person has said that their packaged Onkyo speakers were better than Infinitys or Polks. Only that for the price they sound pretty darn good. I tend to agree with them.


quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA


If the Onkyo's were designed properly, they would sound somewhat competitive with a low end Infinity, or a low end Polk. They are roughly the same size, etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe what you meant to say was


"If the Onkyo's were designed properly, they would sound somewhat competitive with a low end Infinity, or a low end Polk and cost quite a bit more"


I think most 770 owners would willingly trade straight across for a set of infinity or polk speakers- But never in this insanely long thread has anyone come up with a polk or infinity system complete with a decent receiver for $300 delivered to my door.


There are some who might say your Rockets are improperly designed compared to their Revel Salons. That would be true but thats really not a valid argument, is it?


Unless somebody can come up with a better complete system for less than $300 maybe it's time for this thread to die.


----------



## lynesjc

Quote:

_Originally posted by cheapbast4115_
*Unless somebody can come up with a better complete system for less than $300 maybe it's time for this thread to die.*
What he said.


If you're on this forum, you're looking for value, not just performance.


Show me a better set-up for $270. It's about bang for buck.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

So CheapBast, would you agree it is possible to improperly design a speaker? Or not?


I am asking, because I have owned, not one, but two HTIBs that made dialog sound considerably worse than my TV speakers.


In fact, I have one Pansonic TV in my bedroom, that puts out nice clear stereo sound, probably competitive with most HTIBs, especially for dramas...


The difference I am sure is, Panasonic had an engineer design the speakers in the TV to sound good for dialog.


The low bid makers of the HTIB speakers likely did not have an engineer .... at all.


----------



## solderguy

Quote:

_Originally posted by lynesjc_
*What he said.


If you're on this forum, you're looking for value, not just performance.


Show me a better set-up for $270. It's about bang for buck.*
Heh-heh, I don't think the 270 refurb deals was around 4 months ago when this thread was started.

I'm loving my Infinity upgrade, IMHO, the Onkyo speakers keep me from getting my money's worth on the Onkyo reciever, but if people are happy with different choices, great.


----------



## Ron Temple

IMO the 770 is the best value in the HTIB market. The fact that you can upgrade the speakers and be _astonished_ by the improvement, in no way diminishes what a great product it is. I think this thread has some great pointers for improving, marginally, HT systems at this price point, but I can't really see the downside of the Onkyo product. They lead the league with the 770 and what's even better you can improve it and sell the replacement pieces on EBay.


The marketeers for low-end HT gear must love this thread.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

_Originally posted by Ron Temple_
*IMO the 770 is the best value in the HTIB market. The fact that you can upgrade the speakers and be astonished by the improvement, in no way diminishes what a great product it is. I think this thread has some great pointers for improving, marginally*
"astonishing" or "marginally'?


----------



## jkhering

I would vote for "astonishing" - there is nothing "marginal" about the improvement after upgrading the center.


Really, I wasn't bashing the 770 at all in my last post. I'm honestly trying to give some good advice that the money saved by getting the system for


----------



## cheapbast4115

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA


would you agree it is possible to improperly design a speaker? Or not?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Absolutely, but "improperly" is such a subjective word. If Onkyo was trying to design a decent, cheap set of speakers that would give people an affordable entry into home theater- I think they have come up with a great design.


A couple of weeks ago I helped a friend of mine set up his new onkyo system. After reading some of the posts on this thread I expected it to sound horrible...it didn't...at all.


I wasn't amazed by what I heard and we had to set the center speaker volume a little louder than I was used to but it the end it sounded extremely descent. Not incredible, but a huge improvement over his tv speakers.


I'm sure he will make many upgrades in the future as his budget allows, but for him and many others the Onkyo is a great starting point.


----------



## Mr2Spyder

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*I've been in the 'up-grade mode' the last few weeks and have a Primus C25 center speaker I'll be interested in selling; I've had it less than 6 months, and it's like new. It makes a great enhancement to the Onkyo 770, so if any of you 770 owners are interested, give me a PM.*
I thought you were happy with your upgrade. Why are you selling?


----------



## Mr2Spyder

Quote:

_Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA_
*If there was nothing wrong with Onkyo speakers, the difference between them and these other inexpensive speakers wouldn't be "astounding".


If the Onkyo's were designed properly, they would sound somewhat competitive with a low end Infinity, or a low end Polk. They are roughly the same size, etc.


The fact is, they arent designed properly, thus the "astounding" difference.*
John you crack me up.


----------



## Daniel Eddy

If anyone is trying to build their system and is looking for an alternative to a HTIB, Best Buy is selling Athena ASB1's $30 off this week.


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mr2Spyder_
*I thought you were happy with your upgrade. Why are you selling?*
I was able to find an Alpha 37C center speaker, and it is even better! (There's always something better, right?) Seriously, I think I will be happy with the 37C for a LONG time.


----------



## Mr2Spyder

Quote:

_Originally posted by millerwill_
*I was able to find an Alpha 37C center speaker, and it is even better! (There's always something better, right?) Seriously, I think I will be happy with the 37C for a LONG time.*
Millerwill,


You have definately caught the upgrade bug. I hope I dont go the same route. I upgraded to some polks and have strated thinking about upgrading further. Stop the insanity!!


----------



## millerwill

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mr2Spyder_
*Millerwill,


You have definately caught the upgrade bug. I hope I dont go the same route. I upgraded to some polks and have strated thinking about upgrading further. Stop the insanity!!*
It is an unshakable disease!


----------



## Ragamuffin143

Will my Onkyo HTS760 HTiB system be able to handle a set of bi-wired front speakers? I just picked up a set of refurburished Infinity Alpha 20s for a steal and they can be bi-wired. I figured I'd give it a shot, but I'm a bit worried whether I could harm the speakers by not giving them enough power. Will this receiver be able to handle it? Thanks much!


p.s. John, your PM box is "full."


----------



## Nubio

like a bunch of other people in this thread, I was about to plunk down some $$ on an Onkyo HTS-770 system, but then started rethinking my plans


so now I'm considering the following:


Pioneer 1014

4 Athena B1s

and maybe the Dayton 10"


i still need to decide on a center....more Athenas if they're cheap ??


so does this seem like it would work out ok ?....any advice on a center?


i'm trying to spend as little as i can, but still have a "decent" system


system will be used 50/50 for music/movies in a med. sized living room


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by Nubio_
*like a bunch of other people in this thread, I was about to plunk down some $$ on an Onkyo HTS-770 system, but then started rethinking my plans


so now I'm considering the following:


Pioneer 1014

4 Athena B1s

and maybe the Dayton 10"


i still need to decide on a center....more Athenas if they're cheap ??


so does this seem like it would work out ok ?....any advice on a center?


i'm trying to spend as little as i can, but still have a "decent" system


system will be used 50/50 for music/movies in a med. sized living room*
My advice for you is go out and listen to some speakers. There are lots of options in the same price range. For example: JBL, Infinity, Polk, Athena, etc.


You need to decide which ones you like. They all sound different and it's a matter of personal preference as to which one will work best for you.


----------



## hellonewbie

Is it possible and easy to tweak the onkyo speakers so they sound better? I have no clue about speaker design, so maybe there's a steep learning curve even if there's a way. I'm curious though.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

If you go with Athena B1s, get an Athena center 


Helloonewbie - Interesting question, can someone who owns the Onkyo pull apart one of the speakers for us? If all it has has is a first order crossover ( ie, a capacitor) , then it should be tweakable by putting a real crossover in it.


----------



## hellonewbie

I'm curious what cross over frequency onkyo speaker owners set their receivers at? I just checked and mine was set at 100 Hz. I'm wondering if setting it lower so it's closer to the 65 Hz or 55 Hz cutoff frequencies of my onkyo 510 speakers would help much in terms of the clarity of the speakers?


Here are the specs. of the speakers:

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...&class=Speaker


----------



## MidLife

I think the biggest problem with their speakers is the sensitivity. 85 is shamefull. Plug in some 90db for comparison.  Accurate sound reproduction from those speakers down to 55Hz is really pushing the envelope for me.  This system is fine for DVD 5.1 or 6.1 movie playback in a modest sized room. Use some hi fidelity system for music. This is NOT a music system.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Hate to break the news to you MidLife, but music is in integral part of 99% of all movies.


Most new movies have excellent music integration, its often better than the movie lol.


----------



## Megalith

Completey agree. A great soundtrack can make a mediocre movie seem much more satisfying; a great example, in my opinion, would be The Time Machine. Music conveys the emotion much more effectively than anything else.


I set my crossover frequency to 80hz because I use a better speaker than the Onkyo ones, but I think that the original configuration may benefit more from a 100hz cutoff. I honestly don't believe that the speakers can produce bass well at all, which is why they have such a humongous and booming sub to make up for it.


Though the sub that comes with the Onkyo is quite possibly the worst sub I've ever heard. I've had the system for five months, and I swear that I haven't heard anymore than 2 or 3 distinct frequencies.


The only time it even sounds half-way decent is during ridiculous explosions and lightsabers in Episode I.


----------



## MidLife

Quote:

This system is fine for DVD 5.1 or 6.1 movie playback in a modest sized room.
Sound tracks are one thing. Music listenning is another.

I replaced my center channel with a EC35 voice-tuned center speaker. Sounds great! 

Play a music CD or DVD and it's just bad. A nice stereo sounds better. I don't usually critique instrumental accuracy in movie soundtracks. That's just me. Keep in mind, this system would go NOWHERE near a dedicated home theater room for me. That's different, and in the basement. This is in a family room on a 36" TV. I think it performs fine for what it is designed. And, at a good price point. I have heard "mini" systems from Panasonic and such that don't sound as good as the 770. Again, neither of these systems is for "dedicated" theater applications. At least I didn't get that from the advertisements.

In my "home theater" I don't have any low range drivers smaller than 10". Size DOES matter.


----------



## Grosvenor

I'm ready to start buying A/V stuff and I hope y'all can give me some advice.


I currently have nothing but a InFocus 4800 (on its way from woot) and a couple OmniFi systems. One of the OmniFi's is in the box and the other is hooked up to a boombox that I bought at a garage sale for $3. I also have a Senheiser 497 that I use with my laptop.


I really have nothing.


I would like avoid getting all audiofile. I'm afraid I will. I have decent ears (used to run the sound board for touring band) so I'm afraid I will not like the cheap stuff. My Senheisers certainly annoy me. Still I would like to avoid the bug if I can.


The "listening room" is my living room. About 15x15. I'm in a duplex so I would never play anything very loud. I don't do loud anyway. (Question: When do I stop being "old school" and become just plain "old"?)


Use will be 75% talk radio, 20% music (jazz, metal, and punk), and 5% TV/movies but I will probably do a HTPC. I forgot to mention the ReplayTVs. That is how I watch TV. Recorded then streamed to a laptop. I *can't* get the audiofile bug. I already spend all my money on computer toys 


I'm leaning toward the HTS770S since I can have it on my doorstep for under $300. Tax, shipping, and everything. If I start hating the speakers I can upgrade them later.


Can anyone (that would be you John) suggest a better way to get everything that I need for under $300?


TIA,


Dan


----------



## Ron Temple

You won't go wrong with the 770 at that price point. You won't initially hate the speakers. It's a great way to get into HT. I think the 770 shines at higher volumes though. I like the soundstage at 35+ for music. Below that, I don't see a benefit over standard stereo, IMO. Movies are very descent. TV w/o digital output is a slight improvement depending on the broadcast, digital or analog.


----------



## btacker

I just wanted to say thanks to JohnR_IN_LA and the rest of ya'll for saving me from the 770.


I finally have all my pieces setup:


1 Infinity Beta C360

4 Infinity Primus 150s

1 SVS PB10 subwoofer

1 Pioneer 1014


Everything sounds completely awsome for both movies and music. I feel like I got a great system that will keep me happy for many years to come. I especially love the subwoofer and would highly recommend it to anyone.


----------



## DaveInBerlinNJ

FWIW


btacker, I "froogled" lowest prices for those pieces.


Total= $1,274

s770= $ 399 (refurbs for 250!!)

dif= $ 875


I'm glad you love your setup (honestly). That sub alone cost more than a s770.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Yea Dan, I got a plan that you can understand.


Get a real nice Pentium 2 motherboard. thats 60 bucks with 128MB RAM!

Then get one of those 32MB 3D cards for 19 bucks from NewEgg

Then get a case with a 200watt power supply, 30 bucks!

Then get a nice 20GB hard disk, 35 dollars.

Then get the keyboard and mouse for $12

A nice 15 inch monitor for $60

And get a cheap printer, and bam, less than 300 bucks!


Or if you want to get the same level of home theater, then get an Onkyo HTS770 


Honestly, shoot for 2 nice speakers, a receiver, and a subwoofer.


Example: the Dayton 10 inch talked about on this thread,


A used or open-box reciever ( look at the weight, the heavier the better), that does Dolby Digital (not just Dolby pro-logic 2). I once bought one for 75 bucks.


And 2 nice speakers like the Primus 150s


That will be the equivelent of buying a 2.2 Ghz celeron with 1GB of RAM and a 30GB hard disk.


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

Quote:

_Originally posted by DaveInBerlinNJ_
*That sub alone cost more than a s770.*
i'm sure that has something to do with the fact that it's WORTH more than the s770...


----------



## DaveInBerlinNJ

Quote:

_Originally posted by FIVE ONE SIX_
*i'm sure that has something to do with the fact that it's WORTH more than the s770...*
Well, its priced higher, so it better be! And I don't doubt its a great sub.


I gotta admit though, my movies would be pretty boring if all I had was that beautiful sub, sitting by the wall in all its lonely glory... and no amp to drive it... no other speakers to hear the movie... no receiver to switch inputs to my projector.


WORTH is relative.


If you DO NOT HAVE A SYSTEM, the sub is WORTHLESS.


The Onkyo 7 series are terrific systems to start with... even if you never upgrade the speakers. They will be BEYOND the needs for a great many owners looking for a "basic" HT audio setup.


Can you get a better system. Certainly.

Can you get a better system for less, no.


If you can, SHOW ME. BEAT IT for less than $399... I want a complete 6.1 system that decodes DTS-ES and switches component video. I want to be able to order it relatively easily, and get it delivered to my house. The sound needs to fill my 770+ sq ft basement theater.


Do NOT be bringing open box one-offs to the table. If you want to go there... you have to beat $250... because you can find 770 refurbs for that price.


All this talk about how "horrible" the Onkyo system is is disingenuous, at best. It is not a waste of money, even if you replace everything after a year or two... you will have gained valuable experience with setting it up, you'll learn what you want or need in your next system... these are valuable things to know if you are looking to broaden your audio horizons (and thats precisely what you'll be doing if you upgrade). This is well worth the 300-400 entry price.


MUCH better than sitting around listening to NOTHING for the next couple of years.


If you find you have no desire to upgrade, you won't have wasted time and money researching and buying a system that goes beyond your needs and desires.


The Onkyo system gets you in the door, in a big way, at an unbeatable price.


----------



## btacker

Well, you can easily drop $700 off my system by going with the dayton sub, the beta c250, and a different reciever like one of the pannys.


I just had to have really good low bass, a 3 way center, and a really good reciever.


Then, I think that the price difference for performance gain is well worth the money.


I'm not saying that the 770 isn't a good value... I'm just saying if you spend a little more then you won't have to upgrade and be kicking your self a month down the road.


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

Quote:

_Originally posted by DaveInBerlinNJ_
*If you can, SHOW ME. BEAT IT for less than $399... I want a complete 6.1 system that decodes DTS-ES and switches component video. I want to be able to order it relatively easily, and get it delivered to my house. The sound needs to fill my 770+ sq ft basement theater.*
 http://www.drprojector.com/itemdesc....QD40&ic=YHT450


----------



## DaveInBerlinNJ

btacker,


I think you have a great system. Its a terrific value, even at 3-5x's the price of the Onkyo. It's the exact type of system I'd build if I was going to spend some more money. I'd LOVE that receiver and sub. It's just that it costs... 3-5x's more than the Onkyo.



516,


Yeah, I was waiting for someone to find a Yamaha system on sale somewhere... I find the systems (Onkyo and Yamaha) to be more similar than dissimilar, so it's hard for me to call that "better". Truth be told, I'd be concerned about it filling my room with a 6.5" sub. But it's at least in the ballpark.



In the context of this thread, the Yamaha and Onkyo are being painted with the same brush... "barely adequate HTiBs that have lousy sound"... and I think thats wrong.


I have been hesitant to post in this thread all along... mainly due to the tone with which it started. In following it, I believe John raises valuable points. I often don't like the style of John's posts, but thats MY problem, not John's. John likes to stir things up... and does... and sometimes its a really good thing. It gets people thinking and talking and sharing ideas. Frankly, this section was getting boring before this thread started.


I think people that have some money to spend, and some interest in audio, shouldn't short-change themselves. You should NOT buy an Onkyo or Yamaha just because its cheaper and easier. You CAN do better. You should do the work, and get a better system.


Start reading in the audio forums, there's tons of good info there.


I do not think that those that DO get an Onkyo (or Yammy or similar) should feel that they were cheated, or that they have a "sub-standard" system. They don't. Its a very good system thats great for its price. I don't think it should be needlessly slammed, nor should those that purchase it.


----------



## jermy4

Quote:

_Originally posted by DaveInBerlinNJ_
*I think people that have some money to spend, and some interest in audio, shouldn't short-change themselves. You should NOT buy an Onkyo or Yamaha just because its cheaper and easier. You CAN do better. You should do the work, and get a better system.


Start reading in the audio forums, there's tons of good info there.


I do not think that those that DO get an Onkyo (or Yammy or similar) should feel that they were cheated, or that they have a "sub-standard" system. They don't. Its a very good system thats great for its price. I don't think it should be needlessly slammed, nor should those that purchase it.*
I coudln't have said it any better myself. I think this is the point of this thread. If you are very into audio you should not get a HTIB system. I learned the hard way and I think John was just trying to point out that the Onkyo HTIB is not for everyone.


I also don't think the Onkyo is a bad system. It is what it is and I think it's worth what it sells for. It is okay for some people. I bought one for my dad and he likes it.


Cheers,


JR


----------



## nemo77

Ok, I have sold my onkyo 770. Now I havea few questions. What would be a better setup? Athena as-c1 center, Athena F1 for the front, Athena B1 for the back; or Infinty beta c250 center, Primus 250 for the front, Primus 150 for the back. Also, which would be the best receiver to get, Onkyo 502 for 200, Yamaha 5590 for 240 or a panasonic digital receiver? Thanks


----------



## DaveInBerlinNJ

All very good questions. Check the audio forums... lots of great info there.


----------



## j-bo

Quote:

Onkyo 502
Well.. considering the receiver that came with the 770 is basically a clone to this model, with the exception of havng 130 watts per channel compared to the 75 for the 502... that's not an upgrade choice.


This alone, although I am not favorable myself to the 770, is worth the refurb price.


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

i don't know if you guys noticed or not, but the Polk R50's are $79 now at Fry's Outpost.com, i personally consider that a killer deal! look into it, if you need to replace your fronts...


----------



## Ron Temple

516


R50's



There's a guy over in the Speaker Forum who just reviewed them. He was taking them back, but I do believe he was looking for another type of sound. Said they sounded muddy in mid and mid-base. Someone else posted that the R30's sounded better. I don't know, but that price certainly looks worth checking out. Pick them up and let me know


----------



## rdclark

Quote:

_Originally posted by j-bo_
*Well.. considering the receiver that came with the 770 is basically a clone to this model, with the exception of havng 130 watts per channel compared to the 75 for the 502... that's not an upgrade choice.
*
There is actually no difference between the amplifier sections of the 502 and the 520. The Onkyo marketing department used different standards to rate the power output for the HTIB market vs the component market, is all. Being able to advertise the 770 system as !!!!1000 Watts!!!! apparently means something to the intended buyers of this system, or so Onkyo believes.


RichC


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

actually, there is a difference between the amplifier sections of the 502 and 520. the 502 is 75 watts per channel rated at 20-20, the 520 is 130 watts per channel rated at 1, which is not equal. i'd personally say a receiver rated as 130 watts per channel at 1 (with 1 channel driven, of course) would put out about 100 watts per channel rated at 20-20, not 75 watts per channel...


and i can't try out the R50's, i live in NY, i was hoping (like you) that someone here may have tried them out and would be able to offer some feedback. it looks like a great deal, but you may be right, some people may certianly like the R30's over the R50's...


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

LOL 5-1-6, what makes you think they're not equal? Because they used different measurement techniques?


I personally would tend to steer clear of a product that uses a measurement technique that has nothing to do with real world performance.


Thats kind of like testing gas mileage ... downhill.


----------



## NyNy

I just read most of this thread at work, and i'd like to say thanks guys. You just saved me a bunch of money and disappointment, I knew a 5.1 system for the price of a subwoofer was too good to be true . Ill just build me a nice 2.1 system for now.


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

i just think that a receiver that produces 75 watts per channel at 20-20 wouldn't be able to poduce 130 watts per channel at 1, that seems a bit high to me, i would think that a receiver that produces 100 watts per channel should be able to produce that number more realistically. not like that's a good thing, but that's just my opinion...


it's kinda like when your parents used to tell you they walked to school when they were kids, and they always said it was uphill BOTH ways... LOL


----------



## j-bo

It actually comes out to 100 watts/channel. which is still a wee bit better than the 502, which the post was asking if goin to a 502 was an upgrade or not..

So.. question asked, and answered.. move on people.


----------



## MidLife

they still rate these things like they're stereo recievers. 


ie: 2 chanells driven. it probably puts out about 45 watts, all channels driven. I personally would look at THD. [which they creatively rate that as well, nowadays!  ] Most any receiver can get you the dbl output to make you go deaf, but, is it clean sound?


----------



## parcel

I'm yet another potential 770-purchaser who was dissuaded by this thread  I picked up 2 pair AS-B1's and an AS-C1 today, for under $300. Now I'm looking for a receiver. Everyone seems to praise the Pioneer 1014, which is a little out of my price range. There's the Pioneer VSX-D912K which is at the upper end of what I'm looking to spend ($250)... there's also the refurb'd Onkyo TX-SR502 for $100 less. I know people like the 502's pretty well, but is the pioneer going to be better? Also, it says it puts out 110w x 6 channels. I'm brand new to all this, but it sounds like it won't actually put out that kind of power, so the athena's which are rated up to 100w should be fine?


Speaking of blowing the speakers right off the bat, I hooked them up to an OLD Magnavox AH809 tonight, which does 530w at 8ohms, just to see what they sounded like. I started out at 0 volume, and turned it up to maybe 1/4 of max before I realized the thing is busted. What worries me is that when I turned the power off to disconnect everything, I got a pretty loud pop out of the speakers (only had 2 hooked up)... so now I'm freaking out that I busted the speakers just because i'm impatient. I was kind of hoping that someone could reassure me that I (at least probably) didn't? 


And thanks to everyone for helping me avoid a purchase I'd end up regretting.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

The Athenas should be able to handle a loud pop just fine, congrats on the purchase!


You will hear significant audible improvements as you go up that receiver pricerange ( 502 to 912 to 1014)


The advantage to the 1014, is you may not have to upgrade it again. Its about the lowest price box that can handle a near reference volume home theater presentation.


Keep an eye out for a good sub to complete your setup.


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

John, check your PM's...


----------



## Daniel Eddy

parcel,

If you want a budget subwoofer, the 10" Dayton is nice. I really like mine. I also saw a Klipsch sub at Costco for $199. I believe it was the KSW-10, but don't quote me on it.


Dan


----------



## F23Coupe

Quote:

_Originally posted by DaveInBerlinNJ_
*Well, its priced higher, so it better be! And I don't doubt its a great sub.


I gotta admit though, my movies would be pretty boring if all I had was that beautiful sub, sitting by the wall in all its lonely glory... and no amp to drive it... no other speakers to hear the movie... no receiver to switch inputs to my projector.


WORTH is relative.


If you DO NOT HAVE A SYSTEM, the sub is WORTHLESS.


The Onkyo 7 series are terrific systems to start with... even if you never upgrade the speakers. They will be BEYOND the needs for a great many owners looking for a "basic" HT audio setup.


Can you get a better system. Certainly.

Can you get a better system for less, no.


If you can, SHOW ME. BEAT IT for less than $399... I want a complete 6.1 system that decodes DTS-ES and switches component video. I want to be able to order it relatively easily, and get it delivered to my house. The sound needs to fill my 770+ sq ft basement theater.


Do NOT be bringing open box one-offs to the table. If you want to go there... you have to beat $250... because you can find 770 refurbs for that price.


All this talk about how "horrible" the Onkyo system is is disingenuous, at best. It is not a waste of money, even if you replace everything after a year or two... you will have gained valuable experience with setting it up, you'll learn what you want or need in your next system... these are valuable things to know if you are looking to broaden your audio horizons (and thats precisely what you'll be doing if you upgrade). This is well worth the 300-400 entry price.


MUCH better than sitting around listening to NOTHING for the next couple of years.


If you find you have no desire to upgrade, you won't have wasted time and money researching and buying a system that goes beyond your needs and desires.


The Onkyo system gets you in the door, in a big way, at an unbeatable price.*
I agree. Among HTIB packages out there, there isn't a better value. You can put together a better system by buying the components separately but as a whole, the Onkyo 770 system has a lot of features and bang per buck. And for the general mass, that's enough. When you have enough money to upgrade your sound or made the mistake of buying a HTIB in the first place when you needed to get separate components, then upgrade to your heart and wallet's content.


And the kicker is that if these Polks, Infinitis, and Dayton's are such good pieces of a home theater system, why isn't there a company that'd put together a HTIB with these components in them? The answer is, so that you'll go out there and spend extra money to get your audio improvement fix. Or the sadder answer is that if they do package these components together at a price that's profitable, NO ONE would buy them.


The point is, if you're content with HTIB's and its level of sound quality and ultimately its simplicity at its price, then don't have any regrets. But if you wanted to cheat a little and think you're getting good quality sound at a bargain price, you went the wrong way in getting a 770 as you'll find yourself upgrading everything eventually.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Lol when I was in college, me and my Girlfriend bought a 2-man tent at KMart, then we headed to Kerr Dam, a nice big lake in the Carolinas.


We pitched this 29 dollar tent, and then it started to rain. So we got inside of the tent and looked up at the roof of the tent.


Much to our suprise, the rain would hit the tent roof, and the rain drops would split into 4 or so smaller raindrops, then continue its decent to our suprised faces...


So were we better off buying the tent, or not?


----------



## parcel

Well, I ended up going middle of the road and getting the 912 (Thanks for the advice, John) and finally got everything hooked up last night. I'm going to have to put off the sub for a little while, since I'm in an apartment right now, and the athenas alone are putting out too much bass. Switched them all to "Small" speakers on the receiver, and that helped a lot, so hopefully I won't upset the neighbors _too_ much. If I had a sub, there would just be too much temptation 


After the sub, the total will come out around $750, so nearly double the price of the 770, but it's nice to know that not being an audiophile (or likely to ever have $15k to blow on a system), this is a good quality setup that should give me a lifetime of use.


Should be out of the apartment and into an actual house end of this summer, then I'll be getting a sub. Thanks Dan for the suggestions! I'll definitely be checking those out.


I did have another question, since I did cheap out a little on the receiver. In going up the line, does it sound better (cleaner, etc.) or can it just go louder before becoming distorted? I'm getting normal listening volumes at about -50 to -55db on the 912, so it seems like I should get plenty of power from what I have. Haven't tried it yet, waiting until i break in the speakers.. as the instructions "strongly urge" for 50-100 hours before using the speakers to their "full capabilities"  Need to get better wiring than the 18-gauge i'm using now, too...


Avsforum has once again helped tremendously. Not even comparable to all the zdnet and amazon 'reviews' out there. Thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread!


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

congrats on the system...


a little fyi... BB is selling the Athena AS-F1's for about $7 more than the AS-B1's that you currently have...


----------



## parcel

516 - Thanks! I'm just glad I checked this forum before plunking down for an HTIB that I'd end up regretting. Especially compared ot the plastic speakers in the HTIBs I was fisrt looking at... Feels like a single athena bookshelf speaker weighs as much as all the speakers (well, except the sub) in those HITB boxes. I could tell just setting them up that they were of FAR better quality, at least in construction, than what I was looking at before.


I looked at the F1's too, but they're sold each as opposed to the pair of the B1's. Since I was already stretching the budget, I had to go the cheaper route. I'll just have to get a nice sub to make up for it


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

oh ok, i didn't know that the B1's were sold as pairs at BB, all of the other bookshelf speakers that are sold as pairs there says pairs in the description...


----------



## parcel

Quote:

_Originally posted by FIVE ONE SIX_
*oh ok, i didn't know that the B1's were sold as pairs at BB, all of the other bookshelf speakers that are sold as pairs there says pairs in the description...*
yeah, they aren't very clear about that. Yet another reason I hate best buy.


----------



## Megalith

Well, it's been a while since I've visited this thread, but since then I've finally finished upgrading the fronts with Infinity Beta 50s, alongside the Beta 360. Also going to order that PB10 SVS sub soon.


But would that $400 actually go better towards replacing the receiver? Even though the 50s sound good, I've heard that they require a lot of power in order to sound their best.


----------



## Megalith

I ordered the sub but I just sent them a e-mail in an effort to cancel it after reading this:

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/3/120798.html 


This is scary. I'm going to get a Pioneer 1014 as soon as possible as a replacement.


----------



## jborg

Ok guys I was also looking into buying the 770 as my first HT but after reading a couple threads I am not so sure. I really don't know if I should get it or something else like this...


1 - Primus C25

4 - Primus 150s

1 - Dayton

1 - Panny XR25


What do you guys think about this setup? I guess the bottom line would be how cheap can I get these parts. Where could I find the best prices for this equipment? That would be the selling point for me, if I can get it close to the 770 retail price (399-499) I'll go with the obvious better system. I might even try a 3.1 till I get some more cash.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

That sub is from partsexpress.com


Do you know how to web shop?

I would try sites like pricegrabber.com and also check the local best buys and some of the discount websites.... heck even ebay


search old threads here, you can always get a lower price, but its all how much time you want to invest in it.


Also, dont be too picky about brands and products if your bottom shopping. There may be a perfectly good set of "real" speakers on sale somewhere else, and then you just research those speakers and make a decision


----------



## TxOllie

I'm about 1/4 of the way through this thread, but wanted to ask this.


Fry's is having the 770 on sale for $299. I am going to purchase it while it is still on sale (I have 30 days to return it). I think I'll be happy with it, but after reading 4 pages (and still going) that tell me I can get more value for my $ if I spend a little more, I am definitely interested.


The BB's around me are out of their Athena AS, but one or 2 may have the micra 6's. open boxed.


What sort of set-up do you recommend for ~$500? The main interest in the 770 is the features of the receiver, particularly the component video switching. Other than that, I have no real love for Onkyo other than the convenience of buying everything at once. I just really need to be able to switch 2 component video feeds with my receiver, so any suggestions for a receiver that will do that are greatly appreciated.


As far as the speakers are concerned, I'm in Houston and not too far from 1 Fry's and am near another one during the weekends, so I can probably take my time to listen to all the different brands, pick out the one I like, and wait for a sale.


I just need a little guidance for the receiver and maybe some tips for speaker shopping.


Hopefully as I continue reading this thread, I will be able to do most of this on my own.


TIA!


----------



## Ron Temple

Frys constantly puts Polks on sale. The R series is entry level, but I prefer them to the Monitors, they are detailed and warmer.


R50s floorstanders $140/pair

R30 floorstanders $80/pair

R15 surrounds $50/pair


These are the sales prices, typically once or twice per month. Add a Polk center (they don't go on sale much), a sub and receiver. You can get out the door (not the same door) for around $700. I upgraded out of the 770 into this, quite an improvement.


Onkyo HTR 520

Onkyo sub

R50s front

R15s surround

CSi3 center


It ain't $300, but if you want to eliminate the 1st step, there you go, without having to hunt down the Athenas @ BB prices.


----------



## TxOllie

Thanks RT. I was able to pick up a Onkyo 502 open box (no remote though) for $125. I could have gotten an JVC RX-F10 for about the same price. What do y'all think?


I can get some Athena B1's, B2's and a C1 at a local BB. They are out of F1's. (Actually they have 1 F1 only) The guy said he'd sell me the single F1 at a reduced price, but what am I going to do with an unmatched F1 without the cover, or whatever you call the mesh in front of the cones.


Anyways, would y'all recommend waiting on the Polks, getting the Athenas, or a mix of them? I guess it depends on the price I can get on the Athenas, so I'll post the prices tomorrow when I go to BB.


----------



## Ron Temple

B1s ~ R15s

B2s ~ R20s

F1s ~ R50s > R30s


It's all a matter of taste. If you can get a full set of Athenas at BB clearance you will probably be happy. I haven't heard the Athenas, but the specs are pretty equivalent. The Polk centers are more expensive than the C1. You will have to hunt for a bargain on ebay to even get close to the C1 price.


----------



## BruteWes

I have an older Onkyo 5.1 HTIB system and am thinking about upgrading.


Should I be ok with just upgrading the speakers for now? Should the receiver be ok?


I'm thinking about the Infinity Primus C25 Center, 250 Fronts, 150 Rears, and possibly the Dayton 10" sub.


What are your thoughts on this setup? Is the dayton sub good enough to fill a 16x24 room with vaulted ceilings? Will it be noticably better than my Onkyo 8" sub? (I assume so). Should I save for a more powerful sub? I enjoy good bass but do not need to shake the entire house, but I definitely don't want the bass to be lacking when it counts.


Any other suggestions?


Links to purchasing these items would also be appreciated.


Thanks!


----------



## Ron Temple

What's the receiver model number? If it's equivalent to the 300 series receivers you maybe a bit light on power to run the Infinitys. The Dayton sub will be superior to the Onkyo 8", but you do have a large room.


----------



## Megalith

If the sub is anything like the one in the 770, any sub is better.


----------



## jbmasti05

Hi,


I came to know about this BB 30% coupon only last week and made some use of it on last two days.

Athena C1: $75 (New in Box at actual price)

Athena B1 Pair: $44 (Complete Sealed in box marked as open box after 20% open box and 30% coupon)

Athena B1 Pair: $44 (Display model after 20% open box and 30% coupon)

Pioneer 1015TX: $300 (Complete Sealed in box marked as open box at $426 and after 30% coupon)

Total: ~ 465+ Tax


I did find one more new pair of B1 ($77) but I am not sure if I want to go 7.1 yet so did not buy it. I am planning to add Daytona sub later.


What do you think of the setup? Is Pioneer 1015TX open box worth 300 and good match for Athenas? I was also considering Pana XR55 and Harmon AVR235.


Thanks,

JB.


----------



## Ron Temple

Yes, if you also got the remote and microphone and it's working fine. Great deal.


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

they will sound brighter with the Pio 1015 over the HK 235, as some others here have also said after using both receivers with those speakers, but both are good receivers. it's up to you to decide what type of sound you're looking for, then take it from there...


if i was you, i would try out the Pio 1015 for a little while and see how you like the sound, you got it for a killer price. i can't comment on the Panasonic, i've never listened to one, but i've heard great things about them...


as far as the subwoofer goes, your room size is going to very important in determining which one you should go with. if it's a small room, the Dayton 10 will be fine. if it's larger, i would say spend the extra $100 or so and take a step up to either the JBL E250P, the BIC Acoustech H-100 or the Velodyne VRP1200, all of which are great for the $250 price tag...


good luck


----------



## BruteWes

Ron, It's the Onkyo HT-500 system. Does that help?


----------



## Ron Temple

Quote:

Originally Posted by *BruteWes*
Ron, It's the Onkyo HT-500 system. Does that help?
That receiver is before my time, so I'm not sure of it's equivalent. My guess is that it would work adequately, if not great. You probably would hear an improvement with a new more powerful receiver. There were/are some great deals on refurbed models at UBID and a ton of other recommendations all over the forum. If a new rec is not in the budget, bide your time and use the Onkyo.


----------



## jbmasti05

516,

Thanks for you advice. My room is about 13x18, so I guess dayton 10 should do the job, right?


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

well, if you want to spend as little as possible, then it will be fine. if you don't mind spending $250 or so, try either the JBL E250P or the BIC Acoustech H-100. it's up to you to determine exactly what you want...


----------



## Idioteque

You can find the JBL E250P at ubid.com for $200.


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

the shipping charge is $40 though, you'd be better off to wait for it to go on sale at Electronics Expo Online again, it's $219.99 shipped there. also, as far as i know, they're an authorized dealer, and that's important...


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Quote:

Originally Posted by *BruteWes*
I have an older Onkyo 5.1 HTIB system and am thinking about upgrading.


Should I be ok with just upgrading the speakers for now? Should the receiver be ok?


I'm thinking about the Infinity Primus C25 Center, 250 Fronts, 150 Rears, and possibly the Dayton 10" sub.


What are your thoughts on this setup? Is the dayton sub good enough to fill a 16x24 room with vaulted ceilings? Will it be noticably better than my Onkyo 8" sub? (I assume so). Should I save for a more powerful sub? I enjoy good bass but do not need to shake the entire house, but I definitely don't want the bass to be lacking when it counts.


Any other suggestions?


Links to purchasing these items would also be appreciated.


Thanks!
I owned the HT-500, and yes new speakers will be a HUGE improvement.


That receiver will push those Primus, but a more powerful receiver will be an audible improvement.


That receiver will NOT push speakers any bigger though...



Also, the Dayton will be a huge improvement over the Onkyo sub, especially for music.


A larger sub, like that 350 watt Rocket sub, will be another huge improvement. It will NOT overpower your setup.


----------



## Alexsha

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and probably get bashed or flammed, but I went ahead and bought an Onkyo HT-S780. I paid just under $450 (including tax). Out of the box without doing any of the setup on the receiver they sound really good to me. I'm not an audiophile and I probably never will be (occasional ringing in my ears for no reason tells me I may have hurt them at some point!) but for they money, I'm pretty satisfied. The sub is huge and puts out quite a bit of bass (230W dynamic). The speakers all seem well designed and I'm planning on checking inside one of the fronts to see what kind of circuit design there is. I replaced a $125 Sony STR-DE875 and JBL speakers(I cannot for the life of me remember the model #s). I always had clarity problems on the previous setup, but that might be accounted for by improper setup and the room design. I think the only thing I'm gonna miss about the Sony is the bright CAT yellow color I painted the metal top because it got all scratched up.


I suppose I could go out and spend more on speakers, but like I said I'm not an audiophile and I think the HT-S780 sounds great.


----------



## Ron Temple

Post a new thread. "Onkyo is a lot better than my old system"  It's been tried, but the Onkyo fans couldn't keep it up. This thread has been going on for months. Just won't die.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Cant let the largest thread on the forum die...


----------



## Ron Temple

I was just thinking "Where the H**l has JohnR gotten to.


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Hanging in sportscar sites, lol


Honda S2000 (pants)

www.s2ki.com


----------



## cholly

I'm about to buy new speakers for use with my Yamaha RX-657. I already have an Infinity C25 center, which I'd been using as a replacement for the center in my Onkyo HTIB system. I plan to use it with the new speakers, reverting to the Onkyo center for use with the HTIB in a small room. I stopped by the store where I got the Yamaha today and priced the following: Paradigm Atoms for the fronts, Paradigm Cinema 70's for the surrounds, Paradigm Cinema CC for the rear center and a Paradigm PDR-8 subwoofer all for about $550. Room size is about 17X18. I'm on a limited budget, so can't be looking at something pricey.

Comments?


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Nice choices, one thing to keep in mind is that those Paradigm Atoms are superior to anything else in your lineup.


Also, depending on your room, i would pass on the rear center, and sink that money into two Paradigm Atoms in the back. This will make things like Helicopter flyovers on movies sound awesome, as the Atoms provide a little bass punch in back for the thwak-thwak-thwak.


Your subwoofer is good for its size, but having 4 or 5 speakers that have decent mid-bass will relieve that poor little sub from having to augument them... it can concentrate its modest watts around 40hz


In other words, ditch the Cinema series


----------



## cholly

John--thanks for the quick reply. I'll be going over to the store again today to check on pricing. The reason for the PDR 8 is simply price...the dealer got some end of run wood finish models (I think Rosewood) that they're selling for $199.99 -- I recognize that an 8 inch sub doesn't have the punch that I'd get with something larger, but price raised its ugly head and it's hard to pass a bargain on Paradigms. The family room in the new house is prewired for 6.1, so I could add the rear center at any time. Can't take advantage of the RXV-657's 7.1 capability, though.


----------



## cholly

Footnote to my last post. I went back to the dealer and placed my order (they were out of Atoms). Bottom line: $530 for two pairs of Atoms, the PDR-8 sub and a pair of M60 wall mounts. Sweet!


----------



## lynesjc

Quote:

Originally Posted by *cholly*
Sweet! 
 http://www.theflickchicks.com/flick-...e%20poster.jpg


----------



## cholly




----------



## cholly

Finally got my Paradigms night before last. Slight change -- I got a pair of Focus for fronts, Atoms for surrounds and PDR-8 sub, all for $530. I'll be using my Primus C25 for the center speaker and will pick up something to use for rear center at a later date. It'll be about two weeks before I get to install them in my new home. May try them here before I move just to see how they sound in a smaller room


----------



## Ron Temple

I don't see why you should wait  . Enjoy your new speaks.


----------



## zerron

Hi,


I was also considering the Onkyo 770 at Frys and I thought the Harmon Kardon HKTS 14 sounded a lot better. Does anyone have any thoughts on the HK-14 speaker system? I was originally going to buy the Rocket Tykes but that has been discontinued.


----------



## StarvinForHD

Okay folks...mainly for JohnR....


Just got an Onkyo ht-s780...haven't really tried it out yet...and this is my first home system...as much as I hate to admit it I think I got ripped.....


A favor to ask of anyone...I paid 475$ total for the system...I can't pay a dollar more...can anyone suggest a better setup for the same price including shipping???


At the very least, I'd want a 5.1 setup....but would like a 6.1...I just got the Onkyo on Monday so I still can return it...help


----------



## Ron Temple

Listen for a few days, calibrate, then decide what you think you are missing. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it should sound pretty good for HT. About the only options in your range, new, would be Athena Micras and a refurbed Onkyo from ubid. You could also try used or get decent front speakers and add the rest over time.


----------



## lynesjc

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Ron Temple*
About the only options in your range, new, would be Athena Micras and a refurbed Onkyo from ubid.
Which is exactly what I would recommend......


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

i say look into a set of used speakers and a used receiver. trying to keep your budget under $500 is near impossible with new parts, if you look into used parts you can get a pretty decent $750 system for under $500, if not less...


----------



## StarvinForHD

Hey, thanks to everyone's contribution to this thread...


What about some of the home theatre speaker systems sold by Infinity....


Do they sell crappy speakers too when they bundle them?


Like I'm looking at this speaker system from Infinity

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Infin...oductDetail.do 


Then thinking I can get a refurb receiver for like 150$ or 200$


So that would only be another 100$ for a solid upgrade from the Onkyo ht-s780.


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

honestly, most of the smaller speakers like that aren't going to sound good, with a few exceptions...

http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_br...0135-Z&status= 

http://new2.onecall.com/ProductDetai...NID=838&ASaP=1 

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=300-634 


you're done...


----------



## StarvinForHD

Quote:

Originally Posted by *FIVE ONE SIX*
honestly, most of the smaller speakers like that aren't going to sound good, with a few exceptions...

http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_br...0135-Z&status= 

http://new2.onecall.com/ProductDetai...NID=838&ASaP=1 

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=300-634 


you're done...


I was thinking of going with 4 Infinity Primus 140s and an Infinity Center C25, I know I can do better and they may be entry level...but are these good speakers???


----------



## Megalith

You will be pleased with the performance of the Primus line.


----------



## Ron Temple

I think, if you can afford them, you'll be happier with 150s, Athena B1s or Polk R15s than the 140s. The Athenas and Polks will go down to 60hz, I think the 150s will too. The Polks on sale are cheaper, but the others are affordable.


----------



## StarvinForHD

What I'm probably going to do is keep my receiver and sub, and I have a few used speaker combos I'm considering...


2 Paradigm Titans as LR Fronts

1 Infinity c25 as center

4 Infinity 140s as surrounds


I'm concerned though that the Paradigms won't match with the Infinity


2 Polk r30s as LR Fronts

1 Polk csi25 as center

2 Paradigm Atoms as surrounds

2 Infinity Primus 140 or 150s as back surrounds


or


1 athena c.5 center

2 Paradigm Titans as LR Fronts of 2 Athena AS-F1s

4 Athena Point 5s as surrounds



Most of these I can get used on Ebay. My receiver is a Onkyo ht-r530 and I have the sub that goes with the Onkyo 780.


Which setup would be best?


----------



## Ron Temple

The Paradigms are probably (I haven't heard them) your best bet, but I wouldn't mix and match. I'd either go all Paradigms, Athenas or Polks. The LCR is the most important, so if you choose the Polk combo, R30s, CSi25, R15s & R15s you would have a timbre matched system all around. The R15s @ $50/pr are a tremendous bargain.


If you are looking at Paradigms, I'd suggest Titans and Atoms for fronts and surrounds with a matching center. Athenas same thing, F1s,2s,B1s or 2s, C1.


At least go across the front with the same series.


----------



## StarvinForHD

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Ron Temple*
The Paradigms are probably (I haven't heard them) your best bet, but I wouldn't mix and match. I'd either go all Paradigms, Athenas or Polks. The LCR is the most important, so if you choose the Polk combo, R30s, CSi25, R15s & R15s you would have a timbre matched system all around. The R15s @ $50/pr are a tremendous bargain.


If you are looking at Paradigms, I'd suggest Titans and Atoms for fronts and surrounds with a matching center. Athenas same thing, F1s,2s,B1s or 2s, C1.


At least go across the front with the same series.
Are dipole speakers good for back surrounds???


Theres a pair of older paradigm dipole speakers I'm considering.


----------



## Ron Temple

Quote:

Originally Posted by *StarvinForHD*
Are dipole speakers good for back surrounds???


Theres a pair of older paradigm dipole speakers I'm considering.
Too complex for me... I'm running with direct R15 surrounds. You'll be sure to get more info on the Paradigm forum or more conflicting info from the speaker forum 


Isn't this fun


----------



## JohnR_IN_LA

Dipoles can be better for movies, they make the sound more diffuse.


They generally aren't as good for music though ....


People can argue these points endlessly, and some of the arguements are interesting, you can do searches at the speaker forum...


----------



## StarvinForHD

Well another convert...


Returning the Onkyo ht-s780 tomorrow to Circuit City...


What's the sense of having surround sound, when the speakers are so crappy that you can barely make out what the surround channels are producing?


Going w/Dayton Subwoofer 125$ plus shipping

Panasonic XR-55K 7.1 Receiver 225$ on JR.com + 30$ shipping

Infinity Beta C250 Center 135$ at HypAudio.com +30$ shipping

Infinity Primus 160 L/R Fronts 150$ at HypAudio.com

Polk r15 L/R Surrounds 65$ plus shipping on EBay 


Sold an extra cell phone and my HD Tuner on EBay so I could afford it 


Has anyone ever bought anything from HypAudio.com...That price on the c250 seems to good to be true. Was even thinking of going with the refurb c360 at www.theaudiovideosource.com for 200$. 


Will the Primus 160s match with the Beta center channel speakers?


Merry Christmas to me...


----------



## Munkee Boy

Quote:

Originally Posted by *StarvinForHD*
Has anyone ever bought anything from HypAudio.com...That price on the c250 seems to good to be true.
Usually when something seems too good to be true, then it is. Doing a search at resellerratings yielded this and a Better Business Bureau search turned up this 

They seem to be another shady Brooklyn vendor. I would steer clear and find someone reputible. HTH.


----------



## sammyafrikan

okay, I've read through the last 4 pages or so of this thread (after reading through the first few pages and realized they were over a year old). I still can't figure out what's my best option. I was looking at the Onkyo HT-S780 which eCost is selling for $375 shipped to my door, or else the HTS770B which I can get for $420 shipped to my door. I found this forum, and was trying to figure out the difference between the two when I stumbled on this thread.


Here's my setup - I'm setting this up in a 5 meter x 8 meter room, although the setup will only be in one half of the room (so only in a 5 x 4 meter part). My budget is $400 - really can't go much over that, although close would be okay. The room is probably horrible as far as acousitcs go - tile floor, wood ceiling, rough stone walls all around with a few cloth wall hangings and rugs.


I guess I have two options. Go with one of the Onkyo setups above (but which one?) or else get just a good receiver and go with stereo instead of surround, with a sub - and maybe move up to surround in another year with more money.


What's the concensus? And since I'm completely new to all of this - what's are your recommendations for my second option (I know, I can just read through the thread, but there seem to be too many options, and I'm not even sure what options to look at to decide).


thanks!


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

i live about 15 minutes from Brooklyn, and i wouldn't walk in and buy anything from them let alone order something on-line from them...


you can usually find the Primus 150's on sale at Electronics Expo On-Line for $99/pair. right now, they're selling them for $110/pair and they're out of stock. i would say wait a bit, and grab 2 pairs of them, when they are back in stock for $99/pair. with the holidays right around the corner, they should go back down to $99/pair and should be in stock very soon...

http://www.electronics-expo.com/product.jsp?x=PRIMUS150 


you can also usually find the Beta C250 on sale there for $129. yes, that's right, $129 for a great sounding center channel that normally retails for over $250 almost everywhere else. right now, it's on sale for $169, but if you don't mind waiting a bit for it to go back down you should be able to get it for $129. if you don't feel like waiting, it's there if you want it, you're just going to pay a bit more for it now than if you wait...

http://www.electronics-expo.com/product.jsp?x=BETAC250


----------



## lynesjc

Quote:

Originally Posted by *StarvinForHD*
Going w/Dayton Subwoofer 125$ plus shipping

Panasonic XR-55K 7.1 Receiver 225$ on JR.com + 30$ shipping

Infinity Beta C250 Center 135$ at HypAudio.com +30$ shipping

Infinity Primus 160 L/R Fronts 150$ at HypAudio.com

Polk r15 L/R Surrounds 65$ plus shipping on EBay 
Couple of suggestions:


1) The Dayton 12" is $120 shipping included.

2) That Panny receiver is a little cheaper on Amazon. $230 + free shipping.

3) I'd try to stick with one brand for my speakers all the way around. The surrounds aren't as important, so you could get Primus 140's for those. Alternatively, go with a Polk or Athena setup for similar prices.


Regardless of what speaker type you get, this system will be light years ahead of that Onkyo htib.


----------



## lynesjc

Quote:

Originally Posted by *sammyafrikan*
okay, I've read through the last 4 pages or so of this thread (after reading through the first few pages and realized they were over a year old). I still can't figure out what's my best option. I was looking at the Onkyo HT-S780 which eCost is selling for $375 shipped to my door, or else the HTS770B which I can get for $420 shipped to my door. I found this forum, and was trying to figure out the difference between the two when I stumbled on this thread.


Here's my setup - I'm setting this up in a 5 meter x 8 meter room, although the setup will only be in one half of the room (so only in a 5 x 4 meter part). My budget is $400 - really can't go much over that, although close would be okay. The room is probably horrible as far as acousitcs go - tile floor, wood ceiling, rough stone walls all around with a few cloth wall hangings and rugs.


I guess I have two options. Go with one of the Onkyo setups above (but which one?) or else get just a good receiver and go with stereo instead of surround, with a sub - and maybe move up to surround in another year with more money.


What's the concensus? And since I'm completely new to all of this - what's are your recommendations for my second option (I know, I can just read through the thread, but there seem to be too many options, and I'm not even sure what options to look at to decide).


thanks!
The 770 is last years model. The 780 is the current model. The 780 is 7.1 versus 6.1 and the receiver has an extra component video input.


$400 is doable. The Athena Micras are widely available for $300 and refurbished Onkyo 502's can be had for $130 or so. I upgraded from a 770 to this setup and found it to be much better, despite smaller speakers.


----------



## Clubberfin

I also am looking to upgrade from my Onkyo 770S - which I like but just doesn't feel as immersive as I was hoping. I was planning on replacing all the speakers with the Primus as Five One Six suggests, but is it even worth keeping the reciever at this point, or should I just buck up and get a 7.1 reciever?


----------



## Munkee Boy

Quote:

Originally Posted by *lynesjc*
refurbished Onkyo 502's can be had for $130 or so
Could you please point out where this is? Is that shipping included? Been on the lookout for one of these at a decent price.


----------



## Ron Temple

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Munkee Boy*
Could you please point out where this is? Is that shipping included? Been on the lookout for one of these at a decent price.
Last time I looked www.ubid.com still had some. Check it out.


----------



## Ron Temple

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Clubberfin*
I also am looking to upgrade from my Onkyo 770S - which I like but just doesn't feel as immersive as I was hoping. I was planning on replacing all the speakers with the Primus as Five One Six suggests, but is it even worth keeping the reciever at this point, or should I just buck up and get a 7.1 reciever?
The receiver is virtually identical to the Onkyo 502. It will work fine. If you sell the 770 as a whole, you'll have more than enough to upgrade to a refurbed 602, Panny XR55, Pio 815 ( not sure if the last 2 are upgrades) or refurbed HK 235. It's up to you.


----------



## lynesjc

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Munkee Boy*
Could you please point out where this is? Is that shipping included? Been on the lookout for one of these at a decent price.
Ubid - $138 + shipping.


Ecost, PcMall, and Shop Onkyo have them from time to time also.


----------



## plasmanoob

I have been a member of avsforum for a short time, and until I came to the HTIB thread I thought it was awesome. I usually goto the plasma forum because I recently bought a plasma , and the difference between the plasma forum and here is incredible!!! After reading many many posts in this thread, dating from 04- until now, I am disgusted to the point of almost vomiting on my keyboard.


Many of you so called "audiophiles" are not as "helpful" as you claim to be. You come to the HTIB forum, posting about how "htib's suk!!! omfg, #$#$#"

You bring your KNOW-IT-ALL, and elitest attitudes here, and make a forum that is SUPPOSED TO HELP PEOPLE DECIDE WHAT HTIB TO BUY, into the longest, most retarded thread in history.


I am not an audiophile. I don't want to duplicate movie theater sound in my living room. I just want a CHEAP ( CAN YOU F*ing read this???????) cheap system, to replace the crappy 15W speakers that came with my plasma.


If HTIB'S are crap . . .then I came here to find out what the best piece of crap for my money was.


And from my experience at the plasma forums, thats what I thought I was gonna get.


Instead, I got lectured from a few of you, about " IF I ONLY SPEND A LITTLE MORE . . . .I CAN GET --THIS--- "


WHEEEEEEEE!!!


This thread is a testament to how brainwashed our society is. American consumers are tricked into thinking they are being "smart shoppers" by learning "that if you spend a little bit more . . . . you get more". NO S**T. Really?? WoW, I HAD NO IDEA!!! Thanks so much!!!


A truely "smart shopper" is one who buys the BEST PRODUCT YOU CAN, for THE PRICE YOU CAN AFFORD. (even if that price can't buy what other people define as good enough)


It doesn't take a genious to figure out that if I spend just that little bit more . . . I can get something better. And TBH, I wouldn't classify a 20-35% increase in budget as "LITTLE", how some of you are saying.


I don't want to know what I can get "IF" I spend 20-35% more! I want to buy the best I can, for the price I have set out, even if the my "best" is your SUXXoR.


While you guys are running around promoting HT's, people like us can't get the information we came for, because of YOU. The only information I got from this thread is something I learned in 7th grade home eco . . .


Do everyone else a favor, start a "If you only spend 300 dollars more . . " thread. Go into your UBER HT, wack-yourself off while listening to your "much better than HTIB" - HT. And leave this space for the people WHO ACTUALLY WANT A HTIB, to help each other BUY THE BEST HTIB they can. Thank you.


----------



## lynesjc

This is BS. No matter what budget people say they have to work with, they invariably get helpful recommendations.


The only people that get serious grief are the Bose defenders.....


----------



## Ron Temple

Quote:

Originally Posted by *plasmanoob*
I have been a member of avsforum for a short time, and until I came to the HTIB thread I thought it was awesome. I usually goto the plasma forum because I recently bought a plasma , and the difference between the plasma forum and here is incredible!!! After reading many many posts in this thread, dating from 04- until now, I am disgusted to the point of almost vomiting on my keyboard.


Many of you so called "audiophiles" are not as "helpful" as you claim to be. You come to the HTIB forum, posting about how "htib's suk!!! omfg, #$#$#"

You bring your KNOW-IT-ALL, and elitest attitudes here, and make a forum that is SUPPOSED TO HELP PEOPLE DECIDE WHAT HTIB TO BUY, into the longest, most retarded thread in history.


I am not an audiophile. I don't want to duplicate movie theater sound in my living room. I just want a CHEAP ( CAN YOU F*ing read this???????) cheap system, to replace the crappy 15W speakers that came with my plasma.


If HTIB'S are crap . . .then I came here to find out what the best piece of crap for my money was.


And from my experience at the plasma forums, thats what I thought I was gonna get.


Instead, I got lectured from a few of you, about " IF I ONLY SPEND A LITTLE MORE . . . .I CAN GET --THIS--- "


WHEEEEEEEE!!!


This thread is a testament to how brainwashed our society is. American consumers are tricked into thinking they are being "smart shoppers" by learning "that if you spend a little bit more . . . . you get more". NO S**T. Really?? WoW, I HAD NO IDEA!!! Thanks so much!!!


A truely "smart shopper" is one who buys the BEST PRODUCT YOU CAN, for THE PRICE YOU CAN AFFORD.


It doesn't take a genious to figure out that if I spend just that little bit more . . . I can get something better. And TBH, I wouldn't classify a 20-35% increase in budget as "SMALL".


I don't want to know what I can get "IF" I spend 20-35% more! I want to buy the best I can, for the price I have set out, even if the my "best" is your SUXXoR.


While you guys are running around promoting HT's, people like us can't get the information we came for, because of YOU. The only information I got from this thread is something I learned in 7th grade home eco . . .


Do everyone else a favor, start a "If you only spend 300 dollars more . . " thread. Go into your UBER HT, wack-yourself off while listening to your "much better than HTIB" - HT. And leave this space for the people WHO ACTUALLY WANT A HTIB, to help each other BUY THE BEST HTIB they can. Thank you.
You picked the wrong thread to post your rant. It's been running since long before I joined. Like it or not, there's not much I'm going to recommend for under $500 and as good as these systems are (and some are) you can do better, much better, depending on the hot deals going. I'm not going to shut up about it especially if questions are asked.


Be careful what you ask for bud, there are real speaker manufacturers offering products in the HTIB market that will be killer. If you don't want to know about them, don't ask. If you want to shop at Walmart or Costco, just post technical questions, you'll get help. If you want confirmation of quality, it's not going to happen.


----------



## Munkee Boy

I can kind of see where he's coming from. But at the same time, people come here for advice. If someone says 'spend this much more and you will get something much better', they are usually just trying to educate other people from what they have learned, presumably through experience. I think people should have as much information as they can before making a decision, especially since most people in the HTIB section of this forum are noobs. Some will be perfectly happy with their HTIB, and some will regret it. **** happens.


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

Quote:

Originally Posted by *plasmanoob*
Many of you so called "audiophiles" are not as "helpful" as you claim to be.
no one in THIS forum claims to be an audiophile! feel free to start your own thread so you can "find out what the best piece of crap for your money is"

Quote:

Originally Posted by *plasmanoob*
I usually goto the plasma forum because I recently bought a plasma.
feel free to stay there. if you're so sick of us "brainwashed Americans" feel free to move, since you seem live the same America that you mock...


----------



## plasmanoob

Quote:

Originally Posted by *FIVE ONE SIX*
if you're so sick of us "brainwashed Americans" feel free to move, since you seem live the same America that you mock...
LoL, you moron. I 'm not mocking America. Im just saying that All of us to one degree or another, have this "if I only spend a little bit more. . ." philosophy. Myself included! But it doesn't help when we push this attitude on someone trying to research limited options.


I went to the store to buy a big screen projection for around 1300 to 1550. I didn't like the limited viewing angle, and the massive amounts of glare. I saw a 42 inch plasma, "for a little bit more . . ."


I walked out with the plasma. Now, am I going thru all the "big screen projection" forums, trying to educate the public the GREAT SECRET OF LIFE? NO. Why? Because anyone who goes TV shopping will easily find out within the first 10 seconds of talking to the "experts" at Best Buy, that "a little bit more . . " will get them whatever.


And I'm sorry, but sorting through 1200 posts about "OMG htib's suck %^%^% blah blah blah blah" does not lead to being informed. It leads to more confusion and a massive headache.


If someone asks " What is the better system X, or Y for 300 dollars" you idiots answer "D"! ( D for hi, im a dumbass).


"OFMG $%$%$ blagh blah blah, first you drive to the flea market, and ask some shady guy if he can get ABC reciever, then sleep with a hooker who knows a guy from AbT, then goto this website www.SPEND-A_LITTLE-MORE.com 

and see if they have any "virtual reality dvd players"(much better than upscaling) that fell off a truck, got run over by 5 cars, and was pieced back together by some kid doing community service for his DUI; for real real cheap. . . .


IF YOU DO ALL OF THIS, you will ONLY HAVE TO PAY 400 DOLLARS MORE THAN THE AMOUNT IN YOUR POST!!! And it sounds sooo much better!! BWUHAHAHA


Wow. Like I said. Yes everyone knows that usually you get what you pay for. The less you have to spend, generally the less quality, and options you will get. Thats not what people want to hear when they ask a "which one is better for under $$ " post.


pssst.


What they want to hear is . . ."which one is better for under $$ " /giggles. omg I know, that was a tuff question . . hehe


-- another wierd thing, in the plasma forums the MODS are NAZI'S about posting pricing. They lock/ or threaten to, immediately after someone posts a price. The fact that this thread has more prices than a sunday add, leads me to believe that the mod's here are combing the streets, looking for someone- who- knows someone, who knows someone, who can get them a great deal on the worlds long lost, top secret SUPER HT MACHINE, that will help them take over the world, and rid it of all the crappy HTIB'S. MUHUHAHAHAH.


----------



## plasmanoob

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Ron Temple*
Like it or not, there's not much I'm going to recommend for under $500
Well, lets make a sticky saying "Warning, HTIB'S are VERY CRAPPY. There isn't much, if anything worth buying at this price. Your best bet would be to wait, save another 500 dollars and then buy a much much better system, for just a little bit more . . "

Brilliant!


Oh wait. . . that wouldn't work.


The next time I would post asking "Whats a good setup under $1000", you'll have some retard answer by saying, "dude, get x, y, and z! I know its $300 more, but if your gonna spend $1000, you might as well "spend a little bit more . . ." and get this!


When does this cycle end? When will you crackheads be happy?

_MAYBE YOU'll BE HAPPY_

1. when you can permanently attach 8 speakers to each ear (to give you the most realistic surround)

2. insert a dildo shaped subwoofer (comfortably) up your poopie hole [to give you the most thunderous, and realistic, and DEEP, body shaking bass]

3. and have all the VIDEO connections bundled into one wire, that plugs directly into the back of your head, bypassing your eyes, (eliminating the degredation of the visual signal when processed from reality thru your fleshy eyeballs, to the brain) giving you an ultra-clear, vibrant, sharp and colorful picture.


Until that happens for ya . . .

I'll enjoy my under- $400 HTIB, that was a HUGE upgrade to my built-in 15W tv speakers.


booyakasha.


----------



## MidLife

 www.SPEND-A_LITTLE-MORE.com is a dead link. :-(


----------



## sammyafrikan

Okay, I think the Onkyo 502 and the Athena Micras would work fine for me - and I found them within my $400 price limit - but I have one more question - does anyone know if I can run this setup off of 220v? I'm in France. I could use a transformer, but would rather not. Could someone who has the Onkyo 502 check to see if on the back is says it will run off both 110v and 220v (or 240v is what it usually lists). If not, does anyone know if there are ANY receivers that will run off 220v that I can purchase in the U.S. - I'm just not having much luck over here finding what I need (I've only been here a few months)


Thanks!


----------



## sammyafrikan

If I'm not going to go beyond 5.1 surround, is there any reason i shouldn't just go with the sR303?


----------



## jano_aguayo

Quote:

Originally Posted by *plasmanoob*
Well, lets make a sticky saying "Warning, HTIB'S are VERY CRAPPY. There isn't much, if anything worth buying at this price. Your best bet would be to wait, save another 500 dollars and then buy a much much better system, for just a little bit more . . "

Brilliant!


Oh wait. . . that wouldn't work.


The next time I would post asking "Whats a good setup under $1000", you'll have some retard answer by saying, "dude, get x, y, and z! I know its $300 more, but if your gonna spend $1000, you might as well "spend a little bit more . . ." and get this!


When does this cycle end? When will you crackheads be happy?

_MAYBE YOU'll BE HAPPY_

1. when you can permanently attach 8 speakers to each ear (to give you the most realistic surround)

2. insert a dildo shaped subwoofer (comfortably) up your poopie hole [to give you the most thunderous, and realistic, and DEEP, body shaking bass]

3. and have all the VIDEO connections bundled into one wire, that plugs directly into the back of your head, bypassing your eyes, (eliminating the degredation of the visual signal when processed from reality thru your fleshy eyeballs, to the brain) giving you an ultra-clear, vibrant, sharp and colorful picture.


Until that happens for ya . . .

I'll enjoy my under- $400 HTIB, that was a HUGE upgrade to my built-in 15W tv speakers.


booyakasha.
...is there a way to ban this troll?????


----------



## lynesjc

Quote:

Originally Posted by *sammyafrikan*
If I'm not going to go beyond 5.1 surround, is there any reason i shouldn't just go with the sR303?
502 versus 302/303 will get you more power, greater number of digital audio inputs, and s-video and component video switching capabilities.


Well worth it.


----------



## HD Hockey Guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by *plasmanoob*
Until that happens for ya . . .

I'll enjoy my under- $400 HTIB, that was a HUGE upgrade to my built-in 15W tv speakers.


booyakasha.


Well, despite all the bashing of the HTIB in general, and specifically the Onkyo system... I bought the 780 7.1 system to compliment my 56" Samsung DLP, and I gotta say I love the results. Not sure what kind of room you guys are bashing your onkyo in - or if most of you even listened to it or simply want to convince yourself and others of how great your bookshelf pieced together systems are, but as a person who traditionally bought every component individually, and came up with a great sounding system, I think the Onkyo system sounds just fine - not superb, but fine. I admit the sub is a bit finicky about input levels and is like adjusting the water temp on a hot shower - but once you find the sweet spot - it's all good.


The fronts and center sound good to me once I took time to do more than just plug it in and blast it. Try changing the setups to compensate for your room, spacing of speakers apart, etc.. and I found the sound to be nearly twice as good from defaults.


For the money, I am not complaining - I've heard too many other HTIB's that cost $1200 + (Bose cough cough) that sound MUCH worse.


Plasmanoob has a point - or had one initially - you guys are comparing apples to oranges and talking oranges to people that come here looking for apples. Talk about comparable HTIB's or just say see this thread (random link) and send them to your glorius custom built system info thread.


Meanwhile... I'll go listen to my 6.1 version of Gladiator or Top Gun and wait for the 7.1 version of Matrix to come out justifying the extra pain the butt of wiring a 7.1 system.


----------



## Mr2Spyder

HD hockey guy I completely agree with you. I love my Onkyo systems (770 and 780) and think it is one of the best values out there. At the < $500 price point this system is great and cant be beat.


----------



## FIVE ONE SIX

it can be beat for >$500, by something like a refurb Onkyo 502/Athena Point 5/Dayton 12 system for >$500, but the average person would rather buy a complete system out of one box at one store rather than surf the web for sale after sale at site after site to find the best price on specific pieces. don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with getting a HTiB system, my first system was a HTiB system. but if you actually surfed the web, and looked for deals on individual pieces that people mention here, you would be amazed at what you would be able to find...


----------



## Ron Temple

Hey I loved my 770 for about 3-4 months and I've got several posts on this thread sounding similar to HD Hockey and Mr2Spyder. For around $4-500 it's a great system as are some Yamahas. I still recommend it. This thread should have died months ago, but it just doesn't want to (thanks John  ).


Perhaps newcomers read this and get turned off to HTIBs and ask for alternatives or just give a dollar amount and want a solution. Onkyo or Yamaha are always my first suggestion for HTIBs, justifiably, then alternatives. There's a big step up from a $400 system to $650 sub/sats and another to $800-$1000 for full range speakers. If people want to know, I'll tell them. If they don't I don't post (unless I'm bored  )


There's a bunch of people that are extremely happy with the advice they got from John, 516 and lynesjc. I've never seen posts putting people down for their choices, just offering suggestions. No one has to listen.


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## DaveInBerlinNJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Ron Temple*
... There's a bunch of people that are extremely happy with the advice they got from John, 516 and lynesjc. I've never seen posts putting people down for their choices, just offering suggestions. No one has to listen.
Ummmm, helllooooooo, FIRST SENTENCE OF THIS THREAD: (and I quote)


"You guys are kind of clueless." ...courtesy of JohnR. 


No... he never put anyone down. I'm CERTAIN I could find more, and worse, if I bothered to go through this ridiculous thread. But why bother.




Please note, I have NOT found those types of comments from Ron. Ron actually does listen to the question, and gives appropriate (and generally excellent) guidance when asked.


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## Newmie

Quote:

Originally Posted by *DaveInBerlinNJ*
Please note, I have NOT found those types of comments from Ron. Ron actually does listen to the question, and gives appropriate (and generally excellent) guidance when asked.
true


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## HD002




FIVE ONE SIX said:


> it can be beat for >$500, by something like a refurb Onkyo 502/Athena Point 5/Dayton 12 system for >$500,
> 
> 
> 
> Funny you should say. I just got a Panny XR55 and was thinking about the Athena point 5 or Infinity Primus . Anybody have indepth knowledge in these Speakers ?? Was also most likely going to start with a Dayton Sub.
> 
> 
> I saw the Athena for a little over 2 bills for the whole set........What about using those Bic Venturi center channels for the front 3 and then worry about the surrounds later?


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## sammyafrikan

okay, i've spent over an hour looking all over the web to find this out - does anyone have a set of Athena Micra's to see if the power that goes into the back of the Sub will work off of 220v? Or is it only 110v?


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## plasmanoob

thank you all for saving me money. After I bought my plasma i was gonna buy a


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## DaveInBerlinNJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by *sammyafrikan*
okay, i've spent over an hour looking all over the web to find this out - does anyone have a set of Athena Micra's to see if the power that goes into the back of the Sub will work off of 220v? Or is it only 110v?


Don't know. You should ask this question in the "speakers" section of the forum, as the Athena's are speakers, not a HTiB. Or, check their website:
http://www.athenaspeakers.com/micra6SystemSpeakers.htm 


They have a "contact us" option if you can't find your answer in the customer support area.


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## DaveInBerlinNJ




HD002 said:


> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by *FIVE ONE SIX*
> it can be beat for >$500, by something like a refurb Onkyo 502/Athena Point 5/Dayton 12 system for >$500,
> 
> 
> 
> Funny you should say. I just got a Panny XR55 and was thinking about the Athena point 5 or Infinity Primus . Anybody have indepth knowledge in these Speakers ?? Was also most likely going to start with a Dayton Sub.
> 
> 
> I saw the Athena for a little over 2 bills for the whole set........What about using those Bic Venturi center channels for the front 3 and then worry about the surrounds later?
> 
> 
> This question should be researched, and asked (if not previously answered) in the "speakers" section of the forum. This is not a HTiB question.


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## DaveInBerlinNJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by *plasmanoob*
thank you all for saving me money. After I bought my plasma i was gonna buy a


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## StarvinForHD

Tried to post this in the "receiver" forum, but didn't get a response...


Which is better, the Harman Kardon 235 or Panasonic xr55?


I'd probably pay 50$ extra for the HK...


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## Ron Temple

HK has more features, EZSet autosetup, more i/o, component switching, adjustable crossovers and the HK sound. Rated at 50x7, it does better probably close to 60. It's got more guts than many higher end receivers. It's got a high current design which gives it more headroom during dynamic changes in sources.


The Panny is digital, a more minimal feature set, but the fans say it really delivers clean power and great sound. I read a few of the threads and the claims are pretty spectacular. The lowest global crossover setting is 80hz.


Personally, I own the 235, think it's a great deal. If I owned a Panny, I'd feel the same way.


Decide what you need as far as features and pick that one. Depending on your speakers and room, adjustable crossovers(by fronts, center, sur & sur back) are a great feature for blending your mains to your sub.


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## StarvinForHD

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Ron Temple*
HK has more features, EZSet autosetup, more i/o, component switching, adjustable crossovers and the HK sound. Rated at 50x7, it does better probably close to 60. It's got more guts than many higher end receivers. It's got a high current design which gives it more headroom during dynamic changes in sources.


The Panny is digital, a more minimal feature set, but the fans say it really delivers clean power and great sound. I read a few of the threads and the claims are pretty spectacular. The lowest global crossover setting is 80hz.


Personally, I own the 235, think it's a great deal. If I owned a Panny, I'd feel the same way.


Decide what you need as far as features and pick that one. Depending on your speakers and room, adjustable crossovers(by fronts, center, sur & sur back) are a great feature for blending your mains to your sub.
Went with the HK 235...


Folks, you can really get great deals on refurb Harman Kardon receivers on EBay.


They must have a ton of them to sell, I was outbid by 60$, and got a second chance offer to purchase at my highest bid. Paid 240$ plus shipping even though I lost the auction and two people were ahead of me.


Just got my Polk r15s today and my 12" Dayton Sub. I didn't return my Onkyo 780 yet, so I could do a side by side comparison. For my test, I have Alien vs. Predator in 5.1 on my DVR. There's an explosion at the top of a pyramid about 2/3 the way through the movie. It's a great test for a sub. The Onkyo sub had distortion after about 30 on the volume, with the sub set at +3dB, and the crossover at 80 Hz. I was able to crank the volume to 40 with +3dB on the Dayton with no distortion. Any louder, and my neighbors would have called the cops. The Dayton has much cleaner sound than the Onkyo sub...it does shoot out a TON of air though. I was sitting about 4 feet away with it pointed right at me, and my shirt caught the breeze.


Setup my 2 Polk r15s as surrounds, could easily use them as fronts. They easily outperformed those crappy Onkyo speakers. What I noticed right away was how much more definition these speakers had...they didn't sound muddy like the Onkyo speakers. Even watching ESPN in stereo sound, with the receiver set to all channel stereo, the Polks WERE the soundstage by themselves.


Now, I need to tape up my Onkyo 780 box so I can take it back...


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## sammyafrikan

Quote:

Originally Posted by *DaveInBerlinNJ*
Don't know. You should ask this question in the "speakers" section of the forum, as the Athena's are speakers, not a HTiB. Or, check their website:
http://www.athenaspeakers.com/micra6SystemSpeakers.htm 


They have a "contact us" option if you can't find your answer in the customer support area.


Thanks - I did post it there, and I even emailed Athena - and they got back to me this morning - it doesn't support 220v in case someone else cared, unless you buy it in Europe - which sucks cause the cheapest I can find it so far over there is about $600 U.S.


Oh well.


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## farscape105

Hi, first of all I have a Onkyo HT660 and I have John and Ron and others to thank  for starting upgrade process. Received pair of ASB1's and waiting on another pair with ASC1 and Dayton sub.


But I am having a problem and have a question. I connected ASB1's in front and the Onkyo center disconnected and receiver set to 5 speakers (even though center is disconnected) and Pro logic movie mode for regular tv (Dish network). I could hear static softly coming from the fronts that sounded like the dialogue coming thru but garbled.


In Pro logic Music mode the voices came from fronts clearly. Also when I popped in a DVD in DTS/DD 5.1 mode you could faintly but clearly hear the voices from the fronts. But again when in Pro logic movie mode could faintly hear (needed to put ear close to speaker) voices bit all garbled, everything else in this mode was clear like music, etc. So whats up with this? I thought in Pro movie and DD/DTS that voice ONLY came from center? Do I have some kind of inference somewhere? Thanks


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## FIVE ONE SIX

no, vocals don't only come from the center channel, you will pick up hints of voices in your front channels as well. the vocals should defintely be overpowering out of the center channel though, and if you had a center channel hooked up you wouldn't even notice the hints of vocals in your front channels, that you're noticing now...


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## farscape105

Right, I kind of figured there would be like you said hints of voices from front but wondering why they are clear from front in all modes except when in Pro Logic Movie mode and watching tv for example. If I turn center spl down and turn fronts up and hear vocals coming thru as like garbled white noise. Only when switching to other modes like Music do the vocals come clearly. I checked that all connections are correct polarity.


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## farscape105

BTW, other sounds like music/effects come in fine from fronts in Movie mode and center turned down. It is just the hints of voice that come from fronts that is coming thru as garbled sound.


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## farscape105

And to hear the front speaker voice distortion you have to put your ear pretty close.


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## farscape105

Anyone know if there is much difference in sound between ASC1.1 and ASC1.2? The ASC1.2 is much lighter which would be better on top my 57 inch Toshiba, but wonder how can they be so much lighter.


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## farscape105

Also on my previous question the low voice distortion from fronts in movie mode seems to be sporadic. It only happens from Dish TV and only on some channels. Could it be something from the compression used by DISH on certain channels?


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## FIVE ONE SIX

it's the same exact driver, only in a different color. i don't know if they use a different crossover, which may be the case, you should contact Athena just to be sure...


and far as the vocal distortion you're having, it's the source. that always happens with cable and satellite providers, and every provider their own type of problems. like how ONLY my front right speaker used to have a low crackling sound come out of it ONLY when i used to watch Comedy Central. now, it happens on a different channel, and Comedy Central is fine. i don't know why it only happens when i only watch one specific channel, and i know that Cablevision doesn't know either, but it does happen and there's nothing i can do about it except deal with it...


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## farscape105

Just wanted to find out if my onkyo receiver (from HTIB 660) is considered brighter or warmer. Any suggestions on adjusting bass/treble in receiver with my Athena B1's. Thanks


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## afrogt

Adjusting bass/treble depends on your room. If you have lots of furniture plus curtains and carpeting it'll absorb more sound vs barewalls and a hardwood floor. Adjust to your own taste.


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## farscape105

I expected an answer like that.  I know the levels depend on many things. Just wanted to know in general if Onkyo receivers are known for being bright or warm. I have a HT410 receiver. I have read the Athenas are little on bright side.


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## farscape105

While I am on the topic, do you think the 410 receiver can do an adequete job of driving my Athenas? My room size is 15x15. Just ordered Dayton sub to replace Onkyo. Just wondering if buying like a $300 receiver that I would notice big difference in sound?


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## Ron Temple

Probably. My Onkyo 520 wasn't overly bright, just not as detailed as an HK235 nor as powerful.


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## FIVE ONE SIX

Quote:

Originally Posted by *farscape105*
While I am on the topic, do you think the 410 receiver can do an adequete job of driving my Athenas?
will it power them? yes


will it do a good job of powering them? probably not...


Quote:

Originally Posted by *farscape105*
Just wondering if buying like a $300 receiver that I would notice big difference in sound?
it depends on the receiver. i noticed a HUGE difference between my Onkyo 520, which is the receiver that came with my Onkyo 760, and the Pioneer 1014 that replaced it. if you get something like a refurb HK235 for under $300, than the difference would be like night and day, and the HK235 will actually take away some of the brightness of the Athenas. like i said, it depends on the receiver, since they are like speakers in the way that they all sound different...


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## farscape105

Thanks for help. This site is evil.  Never thought about replacing speakers til this site. Loving my athenas now though. Like listening to FM radio compared to AM. Will definetely look into getting new receiver down the road per advice, but no budget now. Will just enjoy new speakers/sub for awhile.


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## nu2this

Wow 21 pages and 2 days later - I'm beginning the speaker upgrade of my onkyo HT-R510 htib beginning with the center channel. From reading this thread it sounds like I could hear a noticable difference with even an entry leval upgrade. My current finances make that a must. I'm open to a B&M store but so far I haven't found my price yet. Here's what I'm considering:


PRIMUS C25 . _It's listed at VANS for $99.00 but currently out of stock_.

BIC America DV-62CLRS _they have listed on Amazon.com for $99_.

JBL EC25 _various on line stores for $99._


I've found lots of good things about the Primus C25s on this thread but found other good reports on the other two in the speaker section.


I'll eventually want to upgrade the rest of the speakers so future matching is an important consideration.


I know I should listen to all of them to decide but there isn't anywhere I can find all three so I'm putting my faith in you guys.


Thanks so much for your help.


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## Ron Temple

This is just hearsay, but the JBL and Infinity have much better bigger brothers while over at Audioholics the Bics and that center are getting alot of buzz, expecially with the Ed Frias modded crossovers. I'd look into to it, maybe go over there and ask for comparisons.


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## FIVE ONE SIX

if you're looking into the Infinity Primus center, also look into the Infinity Beta center, it's much better for only a bit more if you catch it on sale at Electronics Expo On-line...


right now it's on sale for $179.99 shipped, but if you catch it right you can find it for $149.99 shipped, but that only happens once a month or so...


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## Pescamaaan

I've been browsing this thread for the past few days when i was ready to buy th Onkyo HTIB. I've since changed my course....here's what i have lined up so far:


(i originally wanted to keep it under $500 but think i'm getting my $$ worth with this


Subwoofer: Sony SAWM500 12" 150 watt (on sale at BB for $106.99)

Receiver: Panasonic SA XR55K ($238 at page computers including shipping)

Center: Infinity C25 ($162 at Crutchfield)

Bookshelf: Inifinity Primus 160 ($216/pair at crutch)

Loudspeaker: Infinity Primus 150 (free - usually 180/pair)

Also, free shipping on my entire crutch order.


Total including shipping: $723


any thoughts?


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## Pescamaaan

I've been browsing this thread for the past few days when i was ready to buy th Onkyo HTIB. I've since changed my course....here's what i have lined up so far:


(i originally wanted to keep it under $500 but think i'm getting my $$ worth with this


Subwoofer: Sony SAWM500 12" 150 watt (on sale at BB for $106.99)

Receiver: Panasonic SA XR55K ($238 at page computers including shipping)

Center: Infinity C25 ($162 at Crutchfield)

Bookshelf: Inifinity Primus 160 ($216/pair at crutch)

Loudspeaker: Infinity Primus 150 (free - usually 180/pair)

Also, free shipping on my entire crutch order.


Total including shipping: $723


any thoughts?


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## G-star

my god...i almost thought this thread was dead for a while there. 


sounds like a nice setup, though i know nothing about the subwoofer. big step up in the speaker department, though.


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## Ron Temple

Unless the mods kill it, this thread will go on forever...


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## Nihilism

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Pescamaaan*
I've been browsing this thread for the past few days when i was ready to buy th Onkyo HTIB. I've since changed my course....here's what i have lined up so far:


(i originally wanted to keep it under $500 but think i'm getting my $$ worth with this


Subwoofer: Sony SAWM500 12" 150 watt (on sale at BB for $106.99)

Receiver: Panasonic SA XR55K ($238 at page computers including shipping)

Center: Infinity C25 ($162 at Crutchfield)

Bookshelf: Inifinity Primus 160 ($216/pair at crutch)

Loudspeaker: Infinity Primus 150 (free - usually 180/pair)

Also, free shipping on my entire crutch order.


Total including shipping: $723


any thoughts?
Overall, good choices on receiver and speakers, but I would go with the Dayton 12â€ sub for $120 instead of that Sony 12â€ sub if I was in your shoes. I heard of so-so reviews from several of my friends who have that Sony sub.


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## Pescamaaan

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Nihilism*
Overall, good choices on receiver and speakers, but I would go with the Dayton 12â€ sub for $120 instead of that Sony 12â€ sub if I was in your shoes. I heard of so-so reviews from several of my friends who have that Sony sub.
Do you know where i can get the dayton? I searched online but can only find links to refurbrished 10" dayton subs...the reason i chose the sony was bc a) i couldn't find the dayton and b) read on this board it was a decent alternative.


i also read a lot on this thread about the dayton but can't seem to find an online store that has it (at least using google to search)


thanks,


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## lynesjc

Parts Express


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## Pescamaaan

any other sites or alternatives? parts express shows all the dayton's as discontinued and unavailable for sale


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## afrogt

Look at parts #300-635 and 300-633, those are the 12" and 10" subs. Might as well go for the 12" since its $4 cheaper right now. Free shipping on both and due in stock Jan 5.


These are new front firing subs that replaced the popular downfiring Daytons.


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## Pescamaaan

cool, got it. thanks!


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## cholly

Just an update on a pror post of mine where I told about getting a Yamaha RX-V657 receiver, a pair of Paradigm Focus for fronts, Paradigm Atoms for surrounds and a Paradigm PDR8 sub to go with the Infinity C25 I'd gotten previously to upgrade an Onkyo 760 HTIB.

I've moved into my new home and installled them in the family room to complement a sony 55 inch RP LCD TV. Sound is great. What an improvement over the Onkyo, which now resides in my den. Setup is a dream with the Yamaha's auto calibration. Thanks again to JohnR in LA and Ron Temple for their encouragement. I was a bit leery about the PDR8, but it puts out plenty of solid bass for these old ears.


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## JohnR_IN_LA

Oh no... you have an obvious weak link in your system now, you should have never given us an update!


That Infinity C25 is a fine 80 dollar center, but with those bassy Paradigm fronts and rears, it sounds positively like tin, in comparison. You really need to start looking for a good price on an, eek ... Paradigm CC-270 


Do me a favor, stick one of your Atoms in the center, and move the C25 to its old spot in rear, and tell me how that sounds... just as a test.


----------

