# Carp's Basement



## carp

Update: December 2021


The KC group of HT friends recently had Youthman come out from Florida to do videos on 9 of our local rooms. It was a blast, glad we did it, here is my video:







Update: January 29 2022

I replaced my JBL in-walls with JBL line array CBT 70j-1's and bought some large diffusion panels and bought 2 put it together yourself 8" diffusion panels from Etsy. DIY Ceiling 3lb Acoustic Skyline Sound Diffuser Studio | Etsy

I also bought a JVC NZ7, and also decided to keep my Epson 5040 to use for low resolution tv/sports/PC desktop/youtube videos/web surfing.





















I bought a bunch of diffusion panels (Aurolex Geofuser) and placed them in a checkerboard pattern along with acoustic foam on the first reflection points on the left and right side walls and ceiling (forgot to take ceiling picture) for the LCR speakers for the front row seats.




























I covered the treatments with acoustically transparent velvet from Hobby Lobby. It's not as black as the Jo Ann velvet, but it's pretty dark and with the lights off it does a great job. I just used push pins for now to hold up the velvet but will use painted staples when I get around to it. 

























































Update: March 16 2021

The biggest upgrade has been going to a HoverEZe setup, both for the front row and back row. I did that back in April of 2019 but haven't gotten around to updating my room thread. The front row has 2 JBL drivers per chair and the back row riser/couch has 4 drivers in the riser facing up. I also have 2 Boss Back chairs, my MLP chair and the other middle chair next to it. So, I have a total of 14 JBL 12" drivers in addition to the 8 18's up front. I did take out my near field sub 18, I felt it wasn't needed after installing Boss.

Another small change I made a couple years or so ago was changing my window curtains from red with black out lining to velvet over the black out lining.
I also painted the ceiling and walls in the back half of the room 3 years ago or so.

I also went with in wall and in ceiling surround speakers 3 ish years ago and have been very happy with them. I haven't noticed losing anything from the SCS8's. I'm still using 2 sets of side surrounds.

Also, a few years ago I went with a lot more absorption on the back wall, and used absorption/scatter plate panels on the first reflection/contra lateral reflection points on the side walls.










In the below picture you can see how I "hid" the boss back drivers. When in doubt, cover everything in velvet. Seriously though, I haven't had anyone notice that I am completely insane and have drivers directly connected to 2 of my seat backs. I don't use them for movies, I find that the hover boss does everything I need. However, for music I absolutely love the boss back drivers.










Here is a nice comparison of how dark the velvet is in the back of my room compared to mouse ears black on the ceiling in the back of my room:











Update: January 24th 2017

Yamaha 3060
Oppo 203
Epson 5040
JBL 4722n's with upgraded 2453H SL Compression Drivers for LRC speakers
JBL SCS8 surrounds (10 of them)
minidsp 2x4
Elite screen (can't remember model) 158" diagonal 2:35:1
Inuke 3000 dsp to power nearfield sub
Inuke 3000 dsp to power Crowson Transducer
9 SI HT 18" subs
CV 5000 amp to power 8 SI subs







Panoramic, so slightly distorted:













New diffusion panels:







*UPDATE May 6 2015*


My stuff:

Pioneer Elite vsx-53 AVR
Panasonic DMP-BD80 Blu-Ray Player
Mini-dsp
Kinivo HD 1080p switchbox
Cerwin Vega CV 5000 amp to power subwoofers (placed in the laundry room next to my room)
Epson 8350 projector
158 inch screen (2:35:1) 124 inch with masking panels in (16:9)
inuke 3000 dsp to power left and right main speakers
inuke 3000 dsp to power Crowson Transducer (plan on buying more Crowsons)
4 Elemental Designs Cinema 6 surround speakers
8 Stereo Integrity 18" Subwoofers
LCR JTR Noesis 215's




I made some changes. I finally got an AT screen a few months back. I put the full size basketball under the screen to show scale. I used a "floating screen" idea that I got from Tim (stitch1). Worked out great.



I also got a 18" nearfield sub built by Doug (d_c). Love it.





























My subs are all now hidden behind velvet covered frames in the front corners behind the speakers, but here was what they looked like before I covered them and bought the new speakers:











*Older Pictures*



Photobucket

Photobucket

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View from sitting on a subwoofer:

Photobucket


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## carp

Well, I just finished a pretty big project - at least by my standards. With the help of a friends I built a riser for the second row. I was inspired by both Gorilla83 and MrSmithers. Gorilla had just built a riser which got me thinking about it and I also recently went to MrSmithers new house to check out his room and we were experimenting with distances from the screen and I found I didn't mind at all being 9 or 10 feet from the screen on a size similar to what I have in my own room. So, when I got home I moved my chair up 3 feet so that my head is 11 feet from the screen. I could go a little closer but I don't want to mess up the stereo image when I'm listening to music (which is most of the time when I'm in here).


So I enlisted a friend to "help" me out with the project (which means he does most of it since I'm one step from worthless).


I bought 2 2x10's 12 feet long, and 3 2x10's 10 feet long. I already had some MDF that I knew I could use. I figured that 5x7 would be a good size for the riser. For one my couch that length but also I checked Walmart and they sell 5x7 area rugs for very cheap.


So, yesterday we built the riser in the garage. Right before moving it downstairs I had a horrible flash of realization that it may not fit down the stairs. Unfortunately that turned out to be right and we had to take some of it apart, move it to the basement, and re-assemble.


Here is the final stages of screwing the mdf top to the frame.

 



Good job Dave.












 




We went with 14" spans between 2x10's. This thing is sturdy and heavy as hell especially with the 3/4 MDF top. I didn't take a picture of it, but I also put speaker/subwoofer feet under the frame. I had 20 of them so I placed them under it, hoping that maybe I'll get a better tactile effect from bass.



Dave had the great idea to use replacement carpet and adhesive spray for the sides of the frame. I did this part alone, so it took me awhile to realize the only way to get the carpet on straight was to get it off the ground. Did I mention this thing is heavy?


 



Ok, here it is with the walmart rug on top. I think the rug was 35 bucks or close to it. I was going to use black but the black one they had was a lot thinner and wouldn't have been an exact match to the black on the sides anyway. I'm glad I didn't go with the black rug, this one looks really good IMO.


 


 

 

 





Couch is on!! That was fun by myself too.










 

 

 




Back row reclined:

 





Both rows reclined:

 


Don't know why but this view made me laugh; makes me feel like taking a nap.









 




Hey, look at that, the MBM-12 is back in the mix!!







I wanted to make sure I had just enough room for it in between. I like it better this way, it's a bit more hidden than before I had the 2nd row.

 

 

 





Here is what the view is like for me in the back row not reclined.

 



Here is fully reclined with the front row upright.

 


Fully reclined with front row fully reclined. Better not have stinky feet!!!

 





I like this. This is sitting up with the front row seats reclined. This way the center channel speaker gets to me with no blockage.

 




This is laying down watching golf. I'll still be able to do it as long as the front row is reclined.


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## popalock

How you going to open up your thread with an apology...lol


Riser looks great broseph!!!!


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## Gorilla83

Nice, Carp! Glad you're having fun with the riser and the seating. It's fun getting to choose which row you get to sit in, right?


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## femi

nice job on your riser.


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## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *popalock*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23446530
> 
> 
> How you going to open up your thread with an apology...lol
> 
> 
> Riser looks great broseph!!!!




Haha, yeah I know. I just didn't want the thread police to get ticked that I was basically doing the same thread all over again.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gorilla83*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23446619
> 
> 
> Nice, Carp! Glad you're having fun with the riser and the seating. It's fun getting to choose which row you get to sit in, right?




Exactly! I have to say, I like being up high too for some reason. The couch seems more inviting now, I hardly sat on it when it was against the wall. You're going to think I'm crazy but I think the acoustics are noticeably different up there. My daughters came down to check it out and I was talking to them and noticed that my voice sounded different. It seemed like there was more of an echo, not sure. Could be because I'm closer to the ceiling? At any rate if that's the case then that's not a good thing... may have to get some more treatments. Ehhhh... basically just thinking aloud right now, probably won't be a big deal.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *femi*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23446749
> 
> 
> nice job on your riser.



Thanks man! Most of the credit goes to my friend.


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## carp

Here's a question for you guys. I now have a open area of unused space to the right of my main LP. I have 7 feet between the edge of my chair and the wall and at least 8 feet along the wall itself.


MrSmithers is going to do a bar in his room so that got me thinking. I wonder if I could fit a small/skinny bar along the wall with barstools in between the bar and the wall. Room for 3 stools would be great. Obviously I wouldn't have room to have stools on both sides of it, but it would be nice to have something like that in here. I eat down here when it's not family dinner time, and it would be very nice to have something like that where I could eat. Also the added seating room for guests would be great too.


So, I went online looking for a skinny bar or even a high pub table that would be long and thin. It seems like what i am looking for doesn't exist. My guess is the liability of making something that could tip over is why nobody makes them?? I don't know, but I was really surprised tonight when walking through Nebraska Furniture Mart and NOTHING even close to what I am thinking of...


That's my question. Does anyone know where I could find something like this? What I'm afraid of is the only way is to build it yourself..... I really don't want to do that.


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## popalock




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23447301
> 
> 
> Here's a question for you guys. I now have a open area of unused space...



I only got this far in your post and guess what the first thought that popped into my head was?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23447301
> 
> 
> MrSmithers is going to do a bar in his room so that got me thinking. I wonder if I could fit a small/skinny bar along the wall with barstools in between the bar and the wall....
> 
> 
> That's my question. Does anyone know where I could find something like this? *What I'm afraid of is the only way is to build it yourself..... I really don't want to do that.*



You want something like this...
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1421716/bigmouthindc-summer-fun-just-10-minutes-down-the-parkway/200_100#post_23422664 


Not going to happen unless you DIY it. I actually helped BIG build this. It's anchored directly to the riser to ensure stability. Something tall and skinny would pose a tipping liability for sure.


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## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *popalock*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23447935
> 
> 
> I only got this far in your post and guess what the first thought that popped into my head was?
> 
> You want something like this...
> http://www.avsforum.com/t/1421716/bigmouthindc-summer-fun-just-10-minutes-down-the-parkway/200_100#post_23422664
> 
> 
> Not going to happen unless you DIY it. I actually helped BIG build this. It's anchored directly to the riser to ensure stability. Something tall and skinny would pose a tipping liability for sure.




Wow, yeah that's exactly the type of size I'm looking for. I'm thinking 6 feet long, and could probably do 20-24 inches wide. I just tried out a folding table that is 6 feet long and 30 inches wide in that spot. The length is fine but the width is too much, which is fine since I don't want something that wide anyway. Looks like I could easily do 3 bar stools behind it. Not a ton of space between the table and the wall, but enough to get around someone if they were bellied up to the bar.


Is there a way I could bolt it to the concrete floor? I think that's the only way I could keep it stable since it will be out in space, not behind a row like Big's.


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## carp

It's interesting, Big's room is the exact same length as mine, 23 feet and his front front row is the same distance from the screen. If I didn't have the bathroom in the back of the room I could do the same kind of bar he has behind the back row. I would probably scoot everything forward a foot or so, but it could work.... still that open space is begging for something to fill it and I don't want anymore recliners.


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## Gorilla83




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23447299
> 
> 
> Haha, yeah I know. I just didn't want the thread police to get ticked that I was basically doing the same thread all over again.
> 
> Exactly! I have to say, I like being up high too for some reason. The couch seems more inviting now, I hardly sat on it when it was against the wall. You're going to think I'm crazy but I think the acoustics are noticeably different up there. My daughters came down to check it out and I was talking to them and noticed that my voice sounded different. It seemed like there was more of an echo, not sure. Could be because I'm closer to the ceiling? At any rate if that's the case then that's not a good thing... may have to get some more treatments. Ehhhh... basically just thinking aloud right now, probably won't be a big deal.
> 
> Thanks man! Most of the credit goes to my friend.



I did sweeps of all 6 seats last weekend and found some of them can vary drastically in response! On the low end they were all pretty solid but at least two of the seats had huge dips from 1-2k hz. I'll be dealing with that as much as possible but I can tell you it's going to be hard to fix one area without compromising another. I've got a bunch more panels/boards on the way to experiment so we'll see what happens.


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## desertdome

Remember the MRS CARP license plate I saw? I happened to go by the same parking spot this morning. She must have driven her husband's Suburban today because the license plate said CARPS!


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## Skylinestar

With those 18" subs, is there a need for that MBM12? Do you set proper crossover so that the MBM12 only handles the upper bass? Aren't the Noesis good enough for the upper bass?


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## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gorilla83*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23449298
> 
> 
> I did sweeps of all 6 seats last weekend and found some of them can vary drastically in response! On the low end they were all pretty solid but at least two of the seats had huge dips from 1-2k hz. I'll be dealing with that as much as possible but I can tell you it's going to be hard to fix one area without compromising another. I've got a bunch more panels/boards on the way to experiment so we'll see what happens.



How do they sound by ear? Can you tell some seats aren't very good just by listening?


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## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *desertdome*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23449695
> 
> 
> Remember the MRS CARP license plate I saw? I happened to go by the same parking spot this morning. She must have driven her husband's Suburban today because the license plate said CARPS!




Haha, what's up with all the Carp plates? Maybe they aren't taken in Kansas and I should get one. Althought I still have my heart set on "assman".







One in a million shot doc... one in a million.


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## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Skylinestar*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23449799
> 
> 
> With those 18" subs, is there a need for that MBM12? Do you set proper crossover so that the MBM12 only handles the upper bass? Aren't the Noesis good enough for the upper bass?



Well yes and no. The system sounds awesome without the mbm. However, you turn it on and it's just that much better as far as tactile feel for music.


It's a little crazy looking to have 8 frickin subs and a mbm on top of all that but it works great.


*I only use it for music.* For movies the mbm doesn't work as well... or maybe it's more that I just don't need it for movies since the subs crush me all by themselves. For music it's just a subtle added tactile feel that is so nice.


What's interesting is that the way I have it dialed in the frequency response looks exactly like it does without it. However, it's easy to tell the difference when it's on - for music that is. Ha, I think you get the fact that I only use it for music.










Yes, I have it dialed in using the minidsp for distance settings. You can't tell at all that it's on or where the bass is coming from.


The Noesis measure flat to mid 50hz, and sound nice and tight in the midbass but on a concrete floor they don't give you that tactile feel like the mbm does right behind your seat. Plus I use a 80 hz crossover anyway and the mbm plays flat to 50hz.


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## Skylinestar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23451017
> 
> 
> Well yes and no. The system sounds awesome without the mbm. However, you turn it on and it's just that much better as far as tactile feel for music.
> 
> 
> It's a little crazy looking to have 8 frickin subs and a mbm on top of all that but it works great.
> 
> 
> *I only use it for music.* For movies the mbm doesn't work as well... or maybe it's more that I just don't need it for movies since the subs crush me all by themselves. For music it's just a subtle added tactile feel that is so nice.
> 
> 
> What's interesting is that the way I have it dialed in the frequency response looks exactly like it does without it. However, it's easy to tell the difference when it's on - for music that is. Ha, I think you get the fact that I only use it for music.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I have it dialed in using the minidsp for distance settings. You can't tell at all that it's on or where the bass is coming from.
> 
> 
> The Noesis measure flat to mid 50hz, and sound nice and tight in the midbass but on a concrete floor they don't give you that tactile feel like the mbm does right behind your seat. Plus I use a 80 hz crossover anyway and the mbm plays flat to 50hz.


Your 18 inchers play 80Hz...am I correct?


I also have concrete flooring in my house. I have dual Rythmik FV15HPs in my setup. Due to the flooring, the shake/vibration on my 3-seater couch is very minimal. In WOTW, when the pod strikes its laser (centered around 30Hz bass) or when Kate Beckinsale fires her uzi guns in U:A , that's when my couch shakes a bit. I would like to increase the tactile sensation. I'm not sure if I want Buttkicker as some say it's very artificial. Do you think adding rubber feet to my couch will improve the tactile feeling (allowing the couch to shake easier)? Or adding Buttkicker is the only way to go in my situation (more wiring that WAF may get more angry)?


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## Gorilla83




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23450965
> 
> 
> How do they sound by ear? Can you tell some seats aren't very good just by listening?



Now that I know I'm listening for it, I can tell a difference - I think. But it's not as drastic/bad as I would have thought by looking at a -25DB null between 1-2K.







The other seats in the back row are fantastic (FR wise), and 2/3 of the fronts are close to ideal with only small variations.


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## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Skylinestar*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23452006
> 
> 
> Your 18 inchers play 80Hz...am I correct?
> 
> 
> I also have concrete flooring in my house. I have dual Rythmik FV15HPs in my setup. Due to the flooring, the shake/vibration on my 3-seater couch is very minimal. In WOTW, when the pod strikes its laser (centered around 30Hz bass) or when Kate Beckinsale fires her uzi guns in U:A , that's when my couch shakes a bit. I would like to increase the tactile sensation. I'm not sure if I want Buttkicker as some say it's very artificial. Do you think adding rubber feet to my couch will improve the tactile feeling (allowing the couch to shake easier)? Or adding Buttkicker is the only way to go in my situation (more wiring that WAF may get more angry)?




No. The Noesis play > 80hz, and both the mbm and subs play below 80hz and the mbm drops off below 50hz. I could set up my minidsp how you describe it with the big subs not taking over until 50hz and below but I don't feel the need to since the frequency response is good (measured with omnimic) with both mbm and subs playing at the same time. There are times when I'm listening to music that I'm not in the mood for the mbm and I shut it off. The tactile sensation is decreased but the sound quality is the same. It's nice because I still get good punchy tactile bass without the mbm, but it just adds to it when turned on.


I've tried adding rubber feet to my couch and that didn't do much. However, I did add them to the riser just in case, I had a bunch of extra feet that I didn't use on my subs so I put them on the riser. Before adding the feet we turned on some bass heavy clips to see if the riser made any vibration noise and fortunately it did not. However when I stood on it (this was before the couch was on it) there was a noticeable difference in feeling between standing on the riser and standing on the floor. That was without the feet, so I'm hoping for even more feel but I haven't had a chance to try it out yet.


Ok, back to your question. It sounds like you want the lower end frequency feel which means the mbm wouldn't do it for you. It's more for punchy, tactile feel not shake the couch feel. I never got much shake the couch feel until I went from an SVS sub to a Captivator and then dual Captivators. I would suggest near field but for me that didn't work as well for the low end frequency couch shaking - in your room this may not be the case though. With the Caps up front in the corners the scene from Die Hard 4 with the apartment uzi the couch shook like crazy. With nearfield not so much. The nearfield Caps placement did help with music tactile feel though.


I'm not a fan of bass shakers. Some people love them though, so if you have experienced them and like them then that is the way to go for sure.


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## carp

Ugh. Man the sound from the center channel is not good from the back row. It sounds like the voice of the person speaking is coming from everywhere up front, not from a specific point. Fortunately I can recline the front seats a bit and then the center sounds good again since you get the direct line of sight. I know this screams AT screen...


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## desertdome




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23453713
> 
> 
> I wanted to get a rough (very rough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) idea if a bar would fit/work in here.



I would think you would get a better rough idea with beer.


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## carp

Ha, agreed.


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## carp

And then I run across something like this and I'm tempted to say screw it and just go with a simple table and 2 stools. Is it me or is this a really good price? It seems a lot of places want this money just for a table this size with no stools. Free shipping too, hmmm.


http://www.barstools.com/pub-tables-&-sets/pub-sets/boraamaugustapubtablesetlightcherry.cfm


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## popalock

Wife dragged me to Macy's earlier and we came across this and I though about your room.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/popalock85/media/20130630_162740_zps9c53884b.jpg.html  

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/popalock85/media/20130630_162757_zps1f8c3559.jpg.html  

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/popalock85/media/20130630_162811_zpsad15d079.jpg.html  


The kicker...
*Warning: Spoiler!* (Click to show) http://smg.photobucket.com/user/popalock85/media/20130630_162802_zps35958175.jpg.html


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## carp

Wow, that would have worked really well - nice find!


I was starting to regret my recent purchase until I saw the price - ouch!!! That and the knee room looks small.


I went ahead and got a bar table and stools from hayneedle. I think it's a great deal, they look really nice and total price after the 10 percent discount they were offering was 400 shipped for 3 stools and the table. One of the stools had a 1 inch tear on the back of the seat which isn't visible. I called hayneedle and they gave me 85 bucks back!! So 3 stools and a table for 315, not bad.


The stools are comfortable and swivel, which is a must.



http://s232.photobucket.com/user/carlhungus2/media/008_zps73f5989b.jpg.html  

http://s232.photobucket.com/user/carlhungus2/media/004_zps0768a58f.jpg.html  


http://s232.photobucket.com/user/carlhungus2/media/001_zpsd12f5092.jpg.html  




You can see below I took the recliner upstairs. I can still get into the front row walking next to the bar table but I like having a nice wide aisle coming into the room. For a movie night I will just temporarily move the recliner back into the room.




http://s232.photobucket.com/user/carlhungus2/media/006_zpse1cf58b1.jpg.html


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## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *popalock*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23482752
> 
> 
> Wife dragged me to Macy's earlier and we came across this and I though about your room.
> 
> http://smg.photobucket.com/user/popalock85/media/20130630_162740_zps9c53884b.jpg.html
> 
> http://smg.photobucket.com/user/popalock85/media/20130630_162757_zps1f8c3559.jpg.html
> 
> http://smg.photobucket.com/user/popalock85/media/20130630_162811_zpsad15d079.jpg.html
> 
> 
> The kicker...
> *Warning: Spoiler!* (Click to show) http://smg.photobucket.com/user/popalock85/media/20130630_162802_zps35958175.jpg.html




Just looked at this again. Man, none of the local furniture stores had ANYTHING like this and I couldn't find anything like it online either. I don't get the price tag at all though, that's crazy.


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## carp

Oh, I also finally got around to putting up some more signs to keep my JTR sign company. I have had these forever now, I can't even remember where I got them. I know it was through a link here on avs forum and they were pretty cheap. I can tell it was a long time ago because I had a Seaton Sound sign and a Elemental Designs sign. I finally got some cheap frames at wal mart (6 frames for 18 bucks).

http://s232.photobucket.com/user/carlhungus2/media/010_zpsdcc7a184.jpg.html  




I also took the glass out of the JTR sign, looks much better - too much reflection before.


Wow, I really need to clean out that closet and paint the back of it black.


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## kcnitro07

I can no longer come to your house Carp....SQUIRREL.....


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## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kcnitro07*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23485796
> 
> 
> I can no longer come to your house Carp....SQUIRREL.....



Hey, come on now, you weren't quite as bored this last time right?


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## carp

I have a speaker delay question.


So, my center channel is 1' 9" from the screen. Do I change the CC speaker distance so that it is the same as the screen (add 1'9" to the speaker distance)? If I do that it throws off the other speakers though, right? Do I simply add that same 1'9" to all my speaker and sub distances?


It probably doesn't make that much difference but I'm curious.


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## popalock

I'm pretty sure the distance settings have an impact on syncing your ears with that your eyes see.


Meaning, if you start adjusting your speakers the way you are describing, you will notice a delay/advance in sound from what you see on screen.


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## Skylinestar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement#post_23452482
> 
> 
> Ok, back to your question. It sounds like you want the lower end frequency feel which means the mbm wouldn't do it for you. It's more for punchy, tactile feel not shake the couch feel. I never got much shake the couch feel until I went from an SVS sub to a Captivator and then dual Captivators. I would suggest near field but for me that didn't work as well for the low end frequency couch shaking - in your room this may not be the case though. With the Caps up front in the corners the scene from Die Hard 4 with the apartment uzi the couch shook like crazy. With nearfield not so much. The nearfield Caps placement did help with music tactile feel though.
> 
> 
> I'm not a fan of bass shakers. Some people love them though, so if you have experienced them and like them then that is the way to go for sure.


In your opinion, which will shake the couch more: Orbit Shifter or Captivator?


----------



## Scott Simonian

Damn that is classy.


I am envy.


----------



## Scott Simonian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Skylinestar*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23498650
> 
> 
> In your opinion, which will shake the couch more: Orbit Shifter or Captivator?



Completely different kinds of 'shake the couch' between the two. The Orbit Shifter is capable but will crush your chest. The Cap will make your couch feel like a water bed.


I'd say... get both!


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Scott Simonian*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23566711
> 
> 
> Completely different kinds of 'shake the couch' between the two. The Orbit Shifter is capable but will crush your chest. The Cap will make your couch feel like a water bed.
> 
> 
> I'd say... get both!



That is a really good description of both subs.


----------



## jedimastergrant




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23490987
> 
> 
> I have a speaker delay question.
> 
> 
> So, my center channel is 1' 9" from the screen. Do I change the CC speaker distance so that it is the same as the screen (add 1'9" to the speaker distance)? If I do that it throws off the other speakers though, right? Do I simply add that same 1'9" to all my speaker and sub distances?
> 
> 
> It probably doesn't make that much difference but I'm curious.



You probably already solved this one but I doubt the 1' 9" difference would affect the lip sync. I could be wrong but sound travels fast enough that it is hard for me to imagine one could tell.


I do however think that changing the speaker distances relative to one another would foul up how the sound from various speakers arrives at your ears and would be audible for sure just as you already thought.


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jedimastergrant*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23597013
> 
> 
> You probably already solved this one but I doubt the 1' 9" difference would affect the lip sync. I could be wrong but sound travels fast enough that it is hard for me to imagine one could tell.
> 
> 
> I do however think that changing the speaker distances relative to one another would foul up how the sound from various speakers arrives at your ears and would be audible for sure just as you already thought.



Yeah, you are right I can't tell. However it is starting to bug me that all my speakers/subs are staring at me and they sometimes distract me which made me realize that someday I will have to go AT. I don't have the cash right now to do it so I'm thinking it will be a good project for next summer.


----------



## jedimastergrant

Yeah, I would guess Center Stage XD would be around $400 ballpark. If you make your own frame you can save quite a bit. One of the cheaper frames out there is from Jamestown. They have the XD fabric as well. Another thing I had considered was buying a frame from Monoprice. Then trying to put my own fabric in. Not sure how it would be done but it looks like it is a well made aluminum frame at least for the price.


----------



## Gorilla83

Carp - When you've got the coin saved, you've got to do the AT screen. Well worth the investment and one of the biggest 'bang for the buck' purchases I've done for my theater.


I know I've told you this before but wanted to re-state for emphasis.


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jedimastergrant*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23605062
> 
> 
> Yeah, I would guess Center Stage XD would be around $400 ballpark. If you make your own frame you can save quite a bit. One of the cheaper frames out there is from Jamestown. They have the XD fabric as well. Another thing I had considered was buying a frame from Monoprice. Then trying to put my own fabric in. Not sure how it would be done but it looks like it is a well made aluminum frame at least for the price.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gorilla83*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23605584
> 
> 
> Carp - When you've got the coin saved, you've got to do the AT screen. Well worth the investment and one of the biggest 'bang for the buck' purchases I've done for my theater.
> 
> 
> I know I've told you this before but wanted to re-state for emphasis.




Thanks for the advice guys - at this point I've realized that an AT screen is happening it's just a matter of when.


I went over to Kevin's place yesterday (his new house is literally about a mile away which is nice) and I got to check out his new screen and frame he built and it made me want to go AT even more, and that's before he even has the screen put up on the frame.


I think I'll do what Kevin did and buy the screen/frame already made which will mean I'll have to wait awhile but I'm thinking next summer anyway.


In the mean time I'm planning (Grant, I know I told you today I couldn't spend money for a while but you know how that goes







) on a cheap but large tv for the screened porch, I found a 55 inch Vizio on Ebay for 499 no tax free shipping. I'm thinking about jumping on that, but I know it's a risk since I assume there is no warranty? Check the link and let me know what you guys think:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vizio-55-E552VLE-Flat-Panel-LCD-1080p-HD-TV-Wifi-Internet-Apps-120Hz-100000-1-/141031642851 


I don't need super great picture quality but I do need a large size tv since the main seating area on the porch is 20 feet from the wall where the tv would be.



Also, today I put 3 of my panels on the ceiling at the first reflection points to see what it did to the sound. There is an even more noticeable improvement on the ceiling than putting them up on the side walls. It's not a huge but easily enough for me to order 3 more 242 panels from GIK. It makes sense that the panels on the celeing make a bigger difference because the Noesis are so direct but do have a wider dispersion up and down than they do left and right.


It makes the speakers sound more like they do when you put your ear up close to the CD, which is a good thing IMO.


Hey Grant, lookie what I found - in case you want OS triplets.









http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-JTR-Orbit-Shifter-Subwooers-No-Reserve-/190880764801 


No reserve, I'm surprised the bids haven't started going way up only 3 more days. That would be an unreal steal for someone even if the price goes up to 3 grand it's still a great deal as long as you don't mind driving to Maryland..... hmmm wouldn't be that crazy far for you right Andrew?


----------



## Gorilla83

Whew, I'm glad they are the pro version (less extension) otherwise I would be ALL over that man. That isn't far from me at all.


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gorilla83*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23607745
> 
> 
> Whew, I'm glad they are the pro version (less extension) otherwise I would be ALL over that man. That isn't far from me at all.



Woah... didn't think to check that. Yeah, no wonder the bids aren't higher.


----------



## Gorilla83




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23610505
> 
> 
> Woah... didn't think to check that. Yeah, no wonder the bids aren't higher.



The passive Pro OS's have been selling for 1699 plus shipping each so if someone could steal the pair of these guys for under 2K they would have some VERY serious midrange going on. For someone with music use these would be tough or impossible to beat. I wonder how far they would extend in room? If they could get down to the low 20's / upper teens with room gain they would still very feasible for HT use.


----------



## ianick

Great looking room Carp! Those subs make your center channel look like a 228!


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ianick*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23624680
> 
> 
> Great looking room Carp! Those subs make your center channel look like a 228!



Thanks ianick, I looked at your room pic - right back at you, nice room. I see you also have the 8350 - any problems? I'm on my 3rd, but actually 6 have been in the room since 3 of them were DOA. I'm keeping my fingers crossed with this one. I love it when it's working right!


----------



## SupaKats




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23626569
> 
> 
> Thanks ianick, I looked at your room pic - right back at you, nice room. I see you also have the 8350 - any problems? I'm on my 3rd, but actually 6 have been in the room since 3 of them were DOA. I'm keeping my fingers crossed with this one. I love it when it's working right!



Sucks that you've had to go through so many. I haven't had mine for too long but I love it.


----------



## jedimastergrant

I will be starting to make my fabric frames this weekend. You might be able to make some DIY panels on the cheap if the budget is tight. I am using OC 705 and GOM fabric.


----------



## ianick

Thanks! I'm only on my second 8350. I love it as well. My only complaint is I wish I could paint my room black!


Are you in the DSM Metro? I'm on the fence about ordering JTR 228's. I've read they sound very much like the 212's. Might I be able to talk you in to an audition?


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jedimastergrant*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23627606
> 
> 
> I will be starting to make my fabric frames this weekend. You might be able to make some DIY panels on the cheap if the budget is tight. I am using OC 705 and GOM fabric.



Ha.. speaking of which...


I just got done putting the last GIK 242 panel on the ceiling so too late for DIY. I have 3 242 panels on the ceiling and 2 on each side wall.


----------



## carp

I posted this in my 8 sub thread, I've always been curious what the total cost would be for all my stuff in this room including everything - furnuture etc. I did not include the cost for carpet, paint, lighting, etc. since all that was done.


This if more for me than anything else, but in case anyone is curious here is the breakdown:






AVR: 800

Minidsp (for eqing the subs): 115

HDMI Switchbox (I use this so I can have any source on for audio while any other source is on for video): 40

Harmony 900 Remote: 250

Blu Ray Player: 300


Computer hooked up to the AVR and Projector stores all music: 600

Lap top remotely connected to Computer to control music or computer audio/video from my main seat: 200

External Blu Ray Player 100

USB Box: 50

Wireless mouse for laptop: 30

Wireless mouse/keyboard for projected computer image on screen: 50


4 Tri Corner Bass Traps, 2 244 bass trap panels, 5 242 acoustic panels plus shipping: 1000

2 LR speaker stands 400 total for both

1 center channel custom stand: 300

Surround speaker mounts (4): 80

AV Rack: 400

Second Row Riser including rug for top and car carpet/glue for sides: 150

Dayton Omnimic: 300

Extension USB cord: 30


3 Noesis LCR speakers: 6597

2 new eD Cinema 6 surround speakers: 510

2 used eD Cinema 6 surround speakers: 300


Speaker wire: 100

Speaker wire for subs: 100

HDMI cables (including 2 50 foot runs and all other shorter runs): 150

xlr/rca interconnects including runs to the minidsp: 50

Relay to power on and off the sub with receiver remote and box for minidsp: 120

2 Dedicated 20 amp lines run for the sub amp: 400

Extension Cables: 50

Powerstips 2: 30


8 SI Subwoofer Drivers with shipping: 1500

8 Flatpack subwoofer enclosures with shipping: 1100

2 gallons Duratex to finish subs: 110

Glue, screws, polyfill, terminals and other supplies to build subs: 150

Cerwin Vega CV 5000 to power all 8 subs: 680


HSU MBM 12 mid bass module 500


Paint for DIY screen: 50

Molding for screen frame, velvet to wrap it, extra velvet around screen area, staples etc: 200

Plastic sheets cut for masking panels: 50

Prostar self adhesive black material to cover plastic panels: 75

Projector: 1000


Signs, Framed Pictures, Wall art stuff: 400


Lazy Boy reclinable love seat: 1200

Couch: 800

End Tables: 140

Computer desk: 100

Bar table and 3 stools: 300

Computer Chair: 75


Totals:


Speakers: 7407

Subs including finishing, all supplies needed to build, and amp: 3540

HSU MBM 12 mid bass module 500

Components including remote: 1505

Wires, cables, dedicated lines, interconnects, relay, etc: 1000

Screen/Projector: 1375

Computer stuff 1030

Room Treatments/riser/rack/mounts/Omnimic 2660

Pictures: 400

Furniture: 2615

*22,032*




Man... that's a lot. I never would have guessed that I've spend that much on this room. Before I added it all up I would have guessed around 15 grand. Yikes.










I'm glad I added it all up though, I've always been curious what the total amount would be since I put this together slowly over a lot of time.


----------



## Gorilla83

Its funny how when you start adding everything up its always more than you would have thought. I keep a running spreadsheet for all my stuff and its always depressing watching that total creep up. I will have to post mine up in my thread sometime.


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gorilla83*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23878064
> 
> 
> Its funny how when you start adding everything up its always more than you would have thought. I keep a running spreadsheet for all my stuff and its always depressing watching that total creep up. I will have to post mine up in my thread sometime.




Will the shed count as part of the HT hobby expenditures? It has a lot of uses other than building stuff for HT so I would think that's a completely different category of expense.


----------



## Gorilla83




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23878151
> 
> 
> Will the shed count as part of the HT hobby expenditures? It has a lot of uses other than building stuff for HT so I would think that's a completely different category of expense.



Ugh, I actually have another spreadsheet tracking costs for that as well. By the time I'm finished building that out it may end up costing more than the theater.


----------



## d_c

How far is it between the pole in the middle of the room to the wall on the other side of the seating? I think mine is pretty close to your same configuration in the basement. I am designing my basement HT and have been thinking about having the I-beam beefed up so I can remove the pole, but that is the price of some very nice audio gear.


Nice digs, Carp. Well done!


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *d_c*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23915834
> 
> 
> How far is it between the pole in the middle of the room to the wall on the other side of the seating? I think mine is pretty close to your same configuration in the basement. I am designing my basement HT and have been thinking about having the I-beam beefed up so I can remove the pole, but that is the price of some very nice audio gear.
> 
> 
> Nice digs, Carp. Well done!




Thanks Doug!


The pole is 4 feet from the wall, the room is 17'3 wide and 23 feet long.


Oooh man, it would be so nice not to have it - like you though I don't want to spend the money on it.



You know you have to have some of us over sometime to hear the G-Horns!!! Of course you are welcome to come check out my room sometime too if you'd like.


----------



## carp

I bought a Sony BDP-S5100 blu ray player since my Panasonic was having issues with reading some disks.


I set it up the new Sony last night and the receiver says, "PCM" instead of the usual DTS MA or DD True HD or whatever. I went in the menu and my only options are to have it set to "auto" or "pcm". I have it set to auto but the receiver still says "pcm".


Is this a bad thing that I'm getting the sound decoded to pcm instead of one of the high resolution formats?


This is why I hate buying new components, there are always little bugs and crap that I didn't have to deal with the component I'm replacing.


thanks guys for any help


----------



## carp

I tried a few disks. Disks with dolby true hd sound just fine and normal and with those disks the receiver says, "dolby true hd" just like it always has.


Disks with DTS MA don't sound right. The receiver says "PCM" for these disks and the volume is lower than normal. Reference sounds more like -10 and the dynamics seem to be restrained like there is a dynamic range limiter on the player. I went in into the setttings of the sony player and there is no setting I can find for dynamic range.


----------



## carp

I posted about this in the thread for my specific player too:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450585/official-sony-bdp-s1100-bdp-s3100-and-bdp-s5100/1770#post_23929490


----------



## BrolicBeast


Carp, PCM is absolutely fine!  PCM is slightly quieter than bitstream, but the quality of the audio is identical.  MikeDuke, Dmark1, Craig John, Pepar, and myself tested this out at a G2G earlier this year.  The diff is solely in the volume domain.  One or two clicks on the volume-up button will solve the issue.   (I'll try to find the discussion for you on either my thread or craig's thread.)

 

Edit: Check this post.  The discussion starts a little earlier, but this is where Bitstream/PCM became a deliberate point of focus for the G2G.


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23929800
> 
> 
> Carp, PCM is absolutely fine!  PCM is slightly quieter than bitstream, but the quality of the audio is identical.  MikeDuke, Dmark1, Craig John, Pepar, and myself tested this out at a G2G earlier this year.  The diff is solely in the volume domain.  One or two clicks on the volume-up button will solve the issue.   (I'll try to find the discussion for you on either my thread or craig's thread.)
> 
> 
> Edit: Check this post.  The discussion starts a little earlier, but this is where Bitstream/PCM became a deliberate point of focus for the G2G.



Oh, very cool thanks BB. That does kind of bug me though, I like to know where my volume is in relation to reference. I know it doesn't matter, but I know it will bug me.


I'll look through that thread - did you guys determine how many db's different it was? I guess I could figure it out myself by just doing a quick A/B with the 2 different blu ray players and record the spl's with my meter or omnimic.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Wow Carp, that looks like an awesome room. Fantastic gear all around. I agree with wat Matt said. Going with PCM just made us turn up the level a bit but the SQ was equal to what I was used to with the TRU HD and DTS Master. By the way, adding up a total can be dangerous. If I told you mine it may make you think yours is affordable







. On the PCM front, I have a few disks that have that as the only option when I pick an audio choice. Some BR's just don't have the other audio formats so you just need to pick that one instead.


----------



## BrolicBeast

No problem Carp. The difference was 4db, so I'd suggest just keeping everything at PCM, and leaving the volume at the 4.0db volume setting, which is equavalent to the reference 0.0db volume setting.


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/60#post_23929840
> 
> 
> Wow Carp, that looks like an awesome room. Fantastic gear all around. I agree with wat Matt said. Going with PCM just made us turn up the level a bit but the SQ was equal to what I was used to with the TRU HD and DTS Master. By the way, adding up a total can be dangerous. If I told you mine it may make you think yours is affordable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . On the PCM front, I have a few disks that have that as the only option when I pick an audio choice. Some BR's just don't have the other audio formats so you just need to pick that one instead.




Thanks Mike.


Yeah, I had always thought that I had a pretty bare bones low cost room other than the Noesis but you add it all up and it's crazy. I'm sure many here are in the 6 figures easy.


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/60#post_23929844
> 
> 
> No problem Carp. The difference was 4db, so I'd suggest just keeping everything at PCM, and leaving the volume at the 4.0db volume setting, which is equavalent to the reference 0.0db volume setting.




Ok, good to know. It's amazing how much of a difference 4 db's makes!


----------



## lbrown105




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/60#post_23929844
> 
> 
> No problem Carp. The difference was 4db, so I'd suggest just keeping everything at PCM, and leaving the volume at the 4.0db volume setting, which is equavalent to the reference 0.0db volume setting.


that is good to know. My PS3 seems to do everything in Multi channel PCM. So it sounds like dynamic range is not affected just 4dB of volume. thx


----------



## pokekevin

Holy Molys, I've been away from AVS for quite some time! Your room has way more woofers than I remember!! Looking good!!


----------



## d_c




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/30#post_23918839
> 
> 
> Thanks Doug!
> 
> 
> The pole is 4 feet from the wall, the room is 17'3 wide and 23 feet long.
> 
> 
> Oooh man, it would be so nice not to have it - like you though I don't want to spend the money on it.
> 
> 
> 
> You know you have to have some of us over sometime to hear the G-Horns!!! Of course you are welcome to come check out my room sometime too if you'd like.




I'd love to have the tour and steal some of your ideas for my upcoming remodel. Archaea is coming to check out the G-horn the 22nd - you are welcome to come along for the test-drive and give me some pointers for my setup. New eyes help design every time.


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *d_c*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/60#post_23944533
> 
> 
> I'd love to have the tour and steal some of your ideas for my upcoming remodel. Archaea is coming to check out the G-horn the 22nd - you are welcome to come along for the test-drive and give me some pointers for my setup. New eyes help design every time.




Ah man I wish I could, I have plans with the family otherwise I'd be all over it - I'll be grilling Jonathan about his impressions that's for sure. Thanks for the invite!


----------



## Skylinestar

@carp

Since you have the center speaker below your big screen, do you feel that the center channel is too much below the ear height? Does dialogue sound obvious and weird?


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Skylinestar*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/60#post_23985264
> 
> 
> @carp
> 
> Since you have the center speaker below your big screen, do you feel that the center channel is too much below the ear height? Does dialogue sound obvious and weird?




In my room I've never known any different since I've never had an AT screen. I think it sounds great as is but I know that it will sound better if I go AT and put the speaker up vertical. The best sounding CC I've heard in my room was when a friend had the JTR 228 Noesis (little brother of my speakers) stacked on top of my CC. Part of the screen was blocked but it put the CC horn/CD right at ear level and did sound better than having the CC down by the floor. I don't want to make you think that a speaker down low will sound bad, that is not the case - it sounds really good in fact. When I'm watching a movie I never notice that dialogue is coming from below the screen for example. However, it is not 100 percent optimal and there is room for improvement as proven by stacking the 228.


----------



## jdaddieo


What anamorphic lens are you using on your Epson to get the 2:3 size picture? Really nice set-up and keep up the improving, like General Audio once said," Never stop improving!"


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jdaddieo*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/60#post_24017323
> 
> 
> What anamorphic lens are you using on your Epson to get the 2:3 size picture? Really nice set-up and keep up the improving, like General Audio once said," Never stop improving!"




Thanks man.


I'm not using one, I use the poor man's zooming method.







I can't see the black bars at all (even on dark scenes) with the velvet on my wall above my screen and ceiling.


I don't think I'll ever get a lens, but it would be nice someday to get a projector that automatically zooms from 16:9 to 2:35:1 at the touch of a button if it's not crazy expensive.


----------



## Skylinestar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/60#post_23988415
> 
> 
> In my room I've never known any different since I've never had an AT screen. I think it sounds great as is but I know that it will sound better if I go AT and put the speaker up vertical. The best sounding CC I've heard in my room was when a friend had the JTR 228 Noesis (little brother of my speakers) stacked on top of my CC. Part of the screen was blocked but it put the CC horn/CD right at ear level and did sound better than having the CC down by the floor. I don't want to make you think that a speaker down low will sound bad, that is not the case - it sounds really good in fact. When I'm watching a movie I never notice that dialogue is coming from below the screen for example. However, it is not 100 percent optimal and there is room for improvement as proven by stacking the 228.


What is the height of the center speaker horn from the floor level?


----------



## carp

It's 6 inches off the floor angled up on a custom stand. Not ideal and one of the only things pushing me towards an AT screen. It still sounds damn good though.


----------



## pokekevin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/60#post_24021886
> 
> 
> It's 6 inches off the floor angled up on a custom stand. Not ideal and one of the only things pushing me towards an AT screen. It still sounds damn good though.



Is the AT screen a serious consideration? Or is the center working perfectas it is?


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/60#post_24024866
> 
> 
> Is the AT screen a serious consideration? Or is the center working perfectas it is?



I keep going back and forth on that. I love being able to watch tv and sports with the lights all the way on and I'm afraid if I move the screen up it won't look as great as it does now. It really is amazing how bright and good the image looks on my painted wall with the lights on 100 percent.


Plus i have a felling I'll be able to see shapes of things through the AT screen with the lights all the way up because I've noticed that in other rooms that have AT screens with the lights on.


At the same time it does bug me that my center is not at ear level, both for movies and when I listen to 5.1 channel music.


Eventually I think I'll have to try it and see which way has less compromises but it's going to be awhile since funds are low for quite some time.


----------



## stitch1

Hey Carp, Thought I would stop in on your thread. The first post that pop'ed up was your price break out. It really is crazy to think how quickly it all adds up isn't it. I was just guestamating how much I have spent on blu-rays.







Sad thing is I always buy them on sale and they still add up to far more then I would have imagined. We are finally starting to work on my theater again so I'll be updating my thread again soon. I hate to be "that guy" but I feel like we are going to need another movie night at your place again. I want to see / feel your riser with all those subs in there.


----------



## carp

Sounds good to me, I'd love to have you guys over. Grant was thinking he would have his room done this month and was going to have a movie night so I was waiting on him but if it looks like it will be a while maybe people would want to come over to my place. I'll ask him about it.


----------



## carp

I didn't know that directv had picture in picture!


Here is a great idea of any of you guys that have 2:35:1 screens and don't have sunday ticket or redzone.


I took the masking panels out and zoomed in on the side by side PIP option on directv, LOVE IT! It's easy to switch, just press the down arrow and the audio and screens swap. Basically I have a 90 inch tv and a 73 inch tv right now. The picture quality in person looks a lot better than the washed out picture, but here you go:


http://s232.photobucket.com/user/carlhungus2/media/218_zps7afdd7d3.jpg.html


----------



## Bunga99

Thats pretty sweet! Although I am a little jealous that one of your PIP is actually bigger than my whole screen!


----------



## carp

Thanks Bunga, however I'm jealous of you if you have redzone.... I really miss having that.


----------



## jedimastergrant

So how did your time with Audyssey go? I know that Stitch came over and calibrated some. And then you did some tinkering yourself I think.


----------



## carp

Grant, I sent you a PM.


----------



## pokekevin

Damn that PIP set up is like a sports fans heaven!


----------



## carp

Yeah, I wish I had discovered it sooner!


----------



## Scott Simonian

Yeah that is pretty cool.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/60#post_24395344
> 
> 
> Yeah, I wish I had discovered it sooner!



So how do I activate it?? It would be REALLY helpful during college football season.


----------



## Skylinestar

carp, how far is the MLP (first row seat) to the screen and LCR?

Is there a minimum distance for the 212 to sound good?


----------



## devotech

Carp,


How do you manage 2.35:1 content? I'm sure the 8350 doesn't have lens memory.



Update: I missed where you said you were zooming by hand. That gives me hope. I have 2.35 aspirations but its definitely gotta be on the cheap.


----------



## Scott Simonian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/60#post_24132506
> 
> 
> I didn't know that directv had picture in picture!
> 
> 
> Here is a great idea of any of you guys that have 2:35:1 screens and don't have sunday ticket or redzone.
> 
> 
> I took the masking panels out and zoomed in on the side by side PIP option on directv, LOVE IT! It's easy to switch, just press the down arrow and the audio and screens swap. Basically I have a 90 inch tv and a 73 inch tv right now. The picture quality in person looks a lot better than the washed out picture, but here you go:
> 
> 
> http://s232.photobucket.com/user/carlhungus2/media/218_zps7afdd7d3.jpg.html



I love this picture.


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *devotech*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/60#post_24528082
> 
> 
> Carp,
> 
> 
> How do you manage 2.35:1 content? I'm sure the 8350 doesn't have lens memory.
> 
> 
> 
> Update: I missed where you said you were zooming by hand. That gives me hope. I have 2.35 aspirations but its definitely gotta be on the cheap.




Oops, missed this sorry. Yeah, you found the answer. If you are height limited I say go 2:35:1 for sure. I've been zooming/taking in and out the masking panels for 2.5 years and it's not that bad. I will like getting a projector that does it at the touch of a button some day but I'm in no hurry.


----------



## audioguy

You need more woofage










And I thought I had a lot of sub power. I'm sure it sounds phenomenal!!!


Very nice!!!!!


----------



## Archaea

HEY


update your thread. Your pics don't have your acoustic panels on the ceiling. I was trying to reference them to KCNitro07.


----------



## carp

Boom











Updated first post


----------



## popalock




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/0_100#post_24559887
> 
> 
> Boom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Updated first post




Whoa, nice man.


Make a world of difference?


Having experienced Beast's room this last weekend, I think I am going to do what I can to make my room as dead as possible. I really enjoyed it.


----------



## Gorilla83

Looks great, Carp! One of these days we'll have to trek out your way and do the KC tour.







Summer?


----------



## Archaea

Hey East Coast Boys....Talk of an annual AVSforum gathering was mentioned in Beast's thread. KC is centrally located (IE cheap plane tickets and lodging) has a bunch of enthusiasts and a park shelterhouse called the Band Stand which really ROCKs.


Think we should consider doing an AVSforum enthusiast gathering at the Band Stand that could include peeps from all over? Playing loud music is what the Band Stand is for! You can rent the building for $110 for capacities up to 250 people. Electricity included.

 
 



I'm going to drop this post into Beast's thread too.


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *popalock*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/90#post_24586728
> 
> 
> Whoa, nice man.
> 
> 
> Make a world of difference?
> 
> 
> Having experienced Beast's room this last weekend, I think I am going to do what I can to make my room as dead as possible. I really enjoyed it.




No, not a huge difference but enough to notice - although I haven't done a blind comparison.


I don't know how dead I want to go, I could see the 212's getting dull sounding in a dead room like you were talking about.


----------



## carp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gorilla83*  /t/1478065/carps-basement/90#post_24587466
> 
> 
> Looks great, Carp! One of these days we'll have to trek out your way and do the KC tour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Summer?




Archaea's on it!!!!


----------



## kcnitro07

Those panels look about as big as my basement! lol what are the dimensions?


----------



## carp

Ha, optical illusion - I was standing on the 2nd row riser. They are 4 feet by 2 feet.


----------



## kcnitro07

how "deep" are they, thats the part that looks big looks like they hang from the ceiling like 6 "


----------



## carp

There is 1.5 inches of space between them and the ceiling and I think they are 3.5 inches thick, maybe 4. They are the 242 GIK panels.


----------



## kcnitro07

lol my ceiling is a whole 7'2" in the basement, Jonathan would hit his head on those i mmy room


----------



## carp

Mine are 7' 8" so I still think it would work in your room.


----------



## carp

My new JTR 215's




The 8 SI subs are now stacked floor to ceiling in the corners behind the 215's. I made a wooden frame and covered it in velvet to cover the subs.


----------



## Scott Simonian




----------



## d_c

ooooh, ahhhh, wow!! That's awesome Carp.


----------



## carp

Bought some new chairs, updated some pictures of the room on the first post.


----------



## Scott Simonian

MOAR SEATS!!! 

Nice and comfy. Always loved your room and it just keeps getting better and better!


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> MOAR SEATS!!!
> 
> Nice and comfy. Always loved your room and it just keeps getting better and better!



Thanks Scott! 

Update on the chairs. I had to take them back. I loved them I thought and they were very comfortable at first but they got crazy hot after about an hour! This happened every time so I took them back and went with real leather should be here in a few weeks. I'm glad I went with a local store instead of just ordering on the internet or I would have been stuck with them.


----------



## Reefdvr27

carp said:


> Thanks Scott!
> 
> Update on the chairs. I had to take them back. I loved them I thought and they were very comfortable at first but they got crazy hot after about an hour! This happened every time so I took them back and went with real leather should be here in a few weeks. I'm glad I went with a local store instead of just ordering on the internet or I would have been stuck with them.


Ahhhh, don't say this. I am planning on buying blind off the Internet. I really don't have a choice as there are really not many places that even carry theater chairs nearby. I never thought about them being hot? We bought one of those foam beds a long time ago and took it back because of the same thing, just to hot, but is was comfy. I think now they make em allot cooler. I gotta find someplace local that sells something like this, but I don't think I am going to find it. I actually bought the same chair Gorilla has in his theater because I like it so much at one of the GTG's. I could get two or three more of them, that could possibly work.


----------



## carp

Reefdvr27 said:


> Ahhhh, don't say this. I am planning on buying blind off the Internet. I really don't have a choice as there are really not many places that even carry theater chairs nearby. I never thought about them being hot? We bought one of those foam beds a long time ago and took it back because of the same thing, just to hot, but is was comfy. I think now they make em allot cooler. I gotta find someplace local that sells something like this, but I don't think I am going to find it.



What are you thinking of buying? I've sat in quite a few chairs now since we have some stores locally that carry HT seating. 

So far Row One (they used to be Barcalounger or they merged or something) have been my favorites but I've only sat in the Manhattan style from Row One. The one I bought was a bit "shinier" looking than all the other chairs, I think that type of bonded leather just didn't breath very well.

I went in yesterday and literally sat in another Manhattan that had the non shiny bonded leather for an hour! Yeah, I'm a little OCD. After an hour it was much better than the seat I bought but it was still just a little warm so I figured I'd play it safe, spend more money (yikes) and get the real leather. 

I like the Row One Manhattan because it is soft but doesn't get uncomfortable over long periods of time (well, other than getting hot) and it reclines further than the Pallisers. I've sat in many styles of the Pallisers and the Rhumba is my favorite but all of them I wish they reclined further. 

I do wish the Manhattan had a higher back, but then there is the issue of blocking the surrounds so it's a trade-off.

I've done so much researching chairs in the last few weeks it's nuts.


----------



## Archaea

Hey there's always craigslist


----------



## carp

Yeah I was on CL looking for 2 months or so. I went over to a guy's place that lived a mile away, he had the 4 seat curved middle loveseat configuration. I liked them but didn't love them. I'm very picky about seats for some reason.


----------



## Reefdvr27

carp said:


> What are you thinking of buying? I've sat in quite a few chairs now since we have some stores locally that carry HT seating.
> 
> So far Row One (they used to be Barcalounger or they merged or something) have been my favorites but I've only sat in the Manhattan style from Row One. The one I bought was a bit "shinier" looking than all the other chairs, I think that type of bonded leather just didn't breath very well.
> 
> I went in yesterday and literally sat in another Manhattan that had the non shiny bonded leather for an hour! Yeah, I'm a little OCD. After an hour it was much better than the seat I bought but it was still just a little warm so I figured I'd play it safe, spend more money (yikes) and get the real leather.
> 
> I like the Row One Manhattan because it is soft but doesn't get uncomfortable over long periods of time (well, other than getting hot) and it reclines further than the Pallisers. I've sat in many styles of the Pallisers and the Rhumba is my favorite but all of them I wish they reclined further.
> 
> I do wish the Manhattan had a higher back, but then there is the issue of blocking the surrounds so it's a trade-off.
> 
> I've done so much researching chairs in the last few weeks it's nuts.


 Well I was going to do 5 seats. One row of 3 and maybe 2 in the back that do not recline. I really don't have the room to do two rows, but thought I could put in a pair of regular movie seats in the back for the kids along with a few high end nice seats for the adults in the front. I could just do a row of 4 and worry about a 2nd row riser later on and do something like you did with a riser build. I want something nice for sure, I was thing about $699 or so a chair?. I chatted with Jonathan about it and he said being a big guy I want something that sinks in nice. I have looked on the theater seat store and they have a million on them, I don't even know where to start. This week I am working on chairs and a screen. So my nerves are shot at this point. Does not help being a noob.  My sheet rock is done, so It is getting close to time to get this stuff ordered.


----------



## carp

Reefdvr27 said:


> Well I was going to do 5 seats. One row of 3 and maybe 2 in the back that do not recline. I really don't have the room to do two rows, but thought I could put in a pair of regular movie seats in the back for the kids along with a few high end nice seats for the adults in the front. I could just do a row of 4 and worry about a 2nd row riser later on and do something like you did with a riser build. I want something nice for sure, I was thing about $699 or so a chair?. I chatted with Jonathan about it and he said being a big guy I want something that sinks in nice. I have looked on the theater seat store and they have a million on them, I don't even know where to start. This week I am working on chairs and a screen. So my nerves are shot at this point. Does not help being a noob.  My sheet rock is done, so It is getting close to time to get this stuff ordered.


If you like to sink in and recline far back the Row One Manhattan might be for you too. However, there is a Plaza model from row one that has a little taller back and compartments in the arms and it's cheaper! Under 1400 delivered for 2 chairs. I'll send you a link, I gotta go to my daughters swim lessons.


----------



## Reefdvr27

carp said:


> If you like to sink in and recline far back the Row One Manhattan might be for you too. However, there is a Plaza model from row one that has a little taller back and compartments in the arms and it's cheaper! Under 1400 delivered for 2 chairs. I'll send you a link, I gotta go to my daughters swim lessons.


 I have a lead on some chairs that are sold right here is Jersey, but unfortunately the place is up by NYC about a 2hr ride. They are Fushions. They seem pretty popular however they are a bit pricy for the Escape's that I like. They are $2600 bucks. They have the cheaper material and they are $300 bucks cheaper. I would like to ride up and sit in them, but that is a haul, not to mention a nightmare with traffic. I may roll the dice and just get them. The wife and I went to dinner last night then went on a hunt for theater chairs. The only ones we found were a curved set of 5 but they had big compartments in-between and the set was huge!! Way to big for my room. On the flip side they were so comfortable, my wife kept saying she loved how she sank in and she loved the power recline. If I had the room I would have bought that set. I would love to find them in a row of 3, but smaller. 

http://www.rtheaters.com/FusionCollection/FC-Escape-1019.html

These are what I want. They even have power headrest  This guy is said to be great to deal with. Great CS


----------



## Scott Simonian

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm torn between those and either these Berkline Reno's or a very similar Octane XL700 in triple curved like that picture.

If you get them (or if you have sat in them) I'd like to know.


----------



## Reefdvr27

Scott Simonian said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> I'm torn between those and either these Berkline Reno's or a very similar Octane XL700 in triple curved like that picture.
> 
> If you get them (or if you have sat in them) I'd like to know.


Sure thing. I may jet up there tomorrow if he has them on the floor to sit in. It's about 2 hours away, but the traffic just sucks in that area. 

He also told me he has new model under the Escape called the Streamline, he is taking preorders for them now. Might be something else to look at. I will be sure to let you know what I find. These Escapes are so sweet.


----------



## carp

Reefdvr27 said:


> I have a lead on some chairs that are sold right here is Jersey, but unfortunately the place is up by NYC about a 2hr ride. They are Fushions. They seem pretty popular however they are a bit pricy for the Escape's that I like. They are $2600 bucks. They have the cheaper material and they are $300 bucks cheaper. I would like to ride up and sit in them, but that is a haul, not to mention a nightmare with traffic. I may roll the dice and just get them. The wife and I went to dinner last night then went on a hunt for theater chairs. The only ones we found were a curved set of 5 but they had big compartments in-between and the set was huge!! Way to big for my room. On the flip side they were so comfortable, my wife kept saying she loved how she sank in and she loved the power recline. If I had the room I would have bought that set. I would love to find them in a row of 3, but smaller.
> 
> http://www.rtheaters.com/FusionCollection/FC-Escape-1019.html
> 
> These are what I want. They even have power headrest  This guy is said to be great to deal with. Great CS


Kevin (goes by mr Smithers) has those but one level down, they have the manual headrest. I like them ok, but they are a very firm feeling seat. He says they are great for sitting for long periods of time, he stays comfortable. He said he thought he wanted a cushy seat too but is happy with what he has. I want the best of both worlds, cushy and comfortable for long periods. I sat in the row one seat for over an hour and it was still comfortable even though it is soft so hopefully it works long term for me.


----------



## d_c

Your theater is great Carp, thanks for the demo. The 215s are ridiculous! You have me wanting to reconfigure my mains to incorporate a 12" sub in them for 2ch listening.


----------



## Jeff in Canada

Those mains are just massive, though they are dwarfed by your array of subs. Do the lights in the neighbourhood dim when you turn your system on?

BTW: Thanks for the advice on speakers carp. I'm happy with I have and how they are fitting into my theater build......though JTR and Danley's are tempting. 

I'm putting my L/R in the same position that you put yours but behind a cabinet and grill cloth. Does the toe in really make the soundstage extremely wide and immersive?


----------



## carp

Jeff in Canada said:


> Those mains are just massive, though they are dwarfed by your array of subs. Do the lights in the neighbourhood dim when you turn your system on?
> 
> BTW: Thanks for the advice on speakers carp. I'm happy with I have and how they are fitting into my theater build......though JTR and Danley's are tempting.
> 
> I'm putting my L/R in the same position that you put yours but behind a cabinet and grill cloth. Does the toe in really make the soundstage extremely wide and immersive?


Sure man, any time I'm glad to heard you are liking your setup! 

If you do the extreme toe in thing you get a wider sweet spot but it's not any more immersive. I don't like the look of having them toed in that much and since it's usually just me in the main LP I don't need a wider sweet spot. I do toe them in some though, I have them toed in to intersect just behind my head.


----------



## lbrown105

^^ Carp, I also found with too much toe in, my impulse response measurements worsened. By pointing them to much at the opposite walls you lose some of the benefit of the horn and you start getting more room interaction. After a lot of listening and retesting I now point them each just to the outside of the MLP. Of course room dimensions, treatments and speaker distances are a huge part of the equation but just thought I would mention my experience.


----------



## carp

lbrown105 said:


> ^^ Carp, I also found with too much toe in, my impulse response measurements worsened. By pointing them to much at the opposite walls you lose some of the benefit of the horn and you start getting more room interaction. After a lot of listening and retesting I now point them each just to the outside of the MLP. Of course room dimensions, treatments and speaker distances are a huge part of the equation but just thought I would mention my experience.


Interesting that we both ended up toeing in similarly. I have found I like the exact same toe in with the 215's that I did with the 212's.


----------



## Jeff in Canada

carp said:


> Interesting that we both ended up toeing in similarly. I have found I like the exact same toe in with the 215's that I did with the 212's.


I think my toe in will be roughly where yours are at. The good news for me is that the speakers will be hidden behind my cabinets which was a complaint you had above with regard to the angle. If I had the L/R behind my screen I'd not be able to toe them in very much. I'd also be in line with my outside seats and I think they would suffer.


----------



## carp

Jeff in Canada said:


> I think my toe in will be roughly where yours are at. The good news for me is that the speakers will be hidden behind my cabinets which was a complaint you had above with regard to the angle. If I had the L/R behind my screen I'd not be able to toe them in very much. I'd also be in line with my outside seats and I think they would suffer.


Yep, which is why if I ever go AT I won't be putting the mains behind the screen - that's for sure.


----------



## Jeff in Canada

carp said:


> Yep, which is why if I ever go AT I won't be putting the mains behind the screen - that's for sure.


I see your mains in the pictures. Your L/R would not fit behind an AT screen even if you wanted them to. From woofer to woofer you are the limits of your current screen size. They could be used as sea containers


----------



## Scott Simonian

^^^^^

215 center channel.


----------



## carp

Jeff in Canada said:


> I see your mains in the pictures. Your L/R would not fit behind an AT screen even if you wanted them to. From woofer to woofer you are the limits of your current screen size. They could be used as sea containers


Ahhh but when 4K rolls around.... 

Nah, you are right I'll never want a wider screen than this especially since the screen would be closer to me if I went AT. 

Speaking of upgrades, I don't see anything happening for quite a while. I really am happy with how everything is right now. That's a good thing because I am out of money.


----------



## jnnt29

Carp, I just found your page and your theater is amazing. I'm very impressed with the total look of it. I have an unfinished basement that one day will get a dedicated room like yours! I look forward to further updates. JT


----------



## carp

Thanks man!! Good luck on your basement project, it will be so worth the time and money.


----------



## carp

Decided to finally go nearfield. Huge thanks to Doug (d_c) for building me a box that will fit behind my seat and in front of the second row riser. 

Doug sent me these pics yesterday: 












I ordered a B stock SI 18 on Sunday, shipped from North Carolina on Monday, and it got here today (Wednesday). 



I got a D2 so I can use a spare channel from an Inuke 3000 which will give it roughly 600 watts. I know the driver can take a lot more, but all my upfront drivers are getting 625 each so this should be plenty since the sub will be so close to me. I thought about using the Dayton Ultimax driver or maybe even a UXL or something else - but - when it's 149 including shipping for the driver, and I already have an amp for it since it's so efficient it's a no-brainer. I should have done this (errr I mean asked Doug) a long time ago!


----------



## Frohlich

Should be a sweet addition!!!


----------



## carp

Frohlich said:


> Should be a sweet addition!!!


I hope so, everyone seems to rave about it that has tried it. You don't have anything behind your seats do you? BTW, love the new screen - Falcon Horizon right? I'm thinking about getting one.


----------



## Pain Infliction

Nice! No need to spend the extra money on the UXL since this is nearfield. Enjoy!

What are the box dimensions?


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> Nice! No need to spend the extra money on the UXL since this is nearfield. Enjoy!
> 
> What are the box dimensions?


Thanks! It's pretty thin since it has to fit. It's 11 inches deep on the top, 19 inches deep on the bottom, 20 inches tall, and 36 inches wide.


----------



## Pain Infliction

I have thought about getting 18's behind my seats instead of the 12's and a box like that would work out good. I just don't think that I need to do anything with them because it is nearfield and I am enjoying the bass response that I have right now. Maybe some triangular shaped boxes with some 18's in the front left corner of my theater in the future if I do decide to add some more bass.

I really need to find an excuse to come visit some of you KC guys one day. I would love to hear your setup. Maybe in two years when the Eagles play the Chiefs I can make that trip.


----------



## carp

There you go, the perfect excuse.


----------



## beastaudio

Why was I not subscribed here until now?


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Why was I not subscribed here until now?


I know that feeling... I'm late to the party on so many threads...


----------



## carp

A couple of new additions. Neither has worked out yet, haha, just my luck. 

First was the new AT screen from Elite that I bought off of Amazon. 





Same exact size as my current screen, 158 inches diagonal. 

Too bad it looks terrible:




So, with advice from Steven @Scrappydue who went through the exact same think I called Elite and they told me they will replace it if I send in all the proof of purchase and pics that show the issues. The guy told me the screen may not have been designed to work with a projector that puts out pixels as small as mine. Hmmmm it's supposed to be a 1080p screen, says so right in the title. 



Whatever, Scrappy loves his replacement AT material so I'm hoping I will too. Asim (asoof1) has the same material as I do but his screen looks awesome, he sent me a bunch of close up pics that look fantastic. 

Here are more pics of my nearfield sub that Doug built. 









I couldn't get Duratex because they won't ship it when it gets below freezing because it ruins it so Doug suggested I use Rustoleum truck bed liner. Good call!!















Fully reclined, no issues with hitting the box or driver. 






The driver isn't in yet because I hate speakons. Yes, that's right. I hate them and they know I hate them which is why they screwed me over today.

We used a 2 pole female speakon and I'll I have is 4 pole male connectors. Little did I know that you can put a 2 pole into a 4 pole but not the other way around. Da*n you speakons with your stripping of the little screws, screws that just keep turning but don't tighten because the threads are jacked up, that little part that holds the wires in place and is nearly impossible to cram back into place before twisting the speakon back together - and now this. I told you Jonathan. @Archaea Speakons suck. Let me tell you how many times I have had a speaker wire come loose from a normal speaker terminal connection - zero. 

Ok, end rant, just want to hear this bad boy right behind me!!


----------



## carp

Can't say enough about what a great job Doug did, I told him that his corners and edges lined up better than my flat packs did and it's the truth!!


----------



## d_c

carp said:


> Can't say enough about what a great job Doug did, I told him that his corners and edges lined up better than my flat packs did and it's the truth!!



Aw, shucks, I'm happy you like it!


----------



## stitch1

Where is all this screen talk and pics posted? I wanted to see what others are posting.


----------



## carp

stitch1 said:


> Where is all this screen talk and pics posted? I wanted to see what others are posting.



Here is some posts by Asim, he is what got me thinking to try the Elite screen:


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1165099-official-jtr-speaker-thread-892.html#post30207650

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1165099-official-jtr-speaker-thread-892.html#post30211810



The other shots I was talking about were what he texted to me I can sent them to you.


----------



## Pain Infliction

That finish looks great on your new sub. So only one seat gets the special nearfield treatment? That sub is going to be pounding on you! Hahaha love it!

Sucks about the sreen. I don't fully understand why they are going to send you another screen. Shouldn't that screen already be the correct one?? Why are there two different kinds?


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> That finish looks great on your new sub. So only one seat gets the special nearfield treatment? That sub is going to be pounding on you! Hahaha love it!
> 
> Sucks about the sreen. I don't fully understand why they are going to send you another screen. Shouldn't that screen already be the correct one?? Why are there two different kinds?


Thanks - haha, yeah it's the selfish nearfield treatment for sure! 

As far as the screen goes I really don't get it. At first I thought that Elite is just trying to sell as many of the lower level screens as they can knowing some will return them since that's what happened to Scrappy due (Steven) and me, but asoof1 (Asim) got the same material as I did and he sent me a bunch of close up screen shots and his looks great so I have no idea what to think...


----------



## carp

Digging the near field thing that's for sure! Very impressive both for music and movies. With just the one driver I really can't tell it's behind me, even well above 80hz. If I move my head over a couple feet it's obvious but if I stay dead center I can run it up to 150hz and it's not localizable at all. Currently I have it crossed at 80 with a 6 db boost at 70hz for a nice kick drum punch feel. Who knows how I'll end up running it, right now it's just fun to experiment. 

I did hear a very quick "pop" during a bassy movie scene, not sure what it was. No way I could bottom the sub with 1 channel from an inuke 3000 (600 or so watts since I have a D2 SI 18 so 4 ohm load on the inuke), so maybe it was a bad amp sound or a bad driver sound as a result of the amp clipping? 




I had to pull down a huge hump from 35-65 hz for the nearfield sub, but here is what I ended up with. 



Red = 8 subs up front
Blue = nearfield sub
Black = both combined, nearfield sub 8 ft. delay added on inuke


Love this stuff, looking forward to doing some measuring/experimenting tomorrow.


----------



## blazar

I was actually considering the nearfield sub idea but maybe stuffing it in a riser that I need to build for my second row of seats I was thinking of.

I'm not even sure if that makes sense to do... Seems like an awful waste of space in a riser otherwise. I do have speaker wires to this area under the floor already for bass shakers.

My riser would be too small (the same length and width as the couches) to make a major dent as a bass trap...


----------



## Pain Infliction

carp said:


> Digging the near field thing that's for sure! Very impressive both for music and movies. With just the one driver I really can't tell it's behind me, even well above 80hz. If I move my head over a couple feet it's obvious but if I stay dead center I can run it up to 150hz and it's not localizable at all. Currently I have it crossed at 80 with a 6 db boost at 70hz for a nice kick drum punch feel. Who knows how I'll end up running it, right now it's just fun to experiment.
> 
> I did hear a very quick "pop" during a bassy movie scene, not sure what it was. No way I could bottom the sub with 1 channel from an inuke 3000 (600 or so watts since I have a D2 SI 18 so 4 ohm load on the inuke), so maybe it was a bad amp sound or a bad driver sound as a result of the amp clipping?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had to pull down a huge hump from 35-65 hz for the nearfield sub, but here is what I ended up with.
> 
> 
> 
> Red = 8 subs up front
> Blue = nearfield sub
> Black = both combined, nearfield sub 8 ft. delay added on inuke
> 
> 
> Love this stuff, looking forward to doing some measuring/experimenting tomorrow.



Nice! I love playing around with this stuff too. Have fun! I just spent 10 hours yesterday installing a second rack into my av closet. I still need to clean up and I ordered some blank face plates to fill in the open areas. Not as fun as tuning, but still kind of fun.


----------



## carp

blazar said:


> I was actually considering the nearfield sub idea but maybe stuffing it in a riser that I need to build for my second row of seats I was thinking of.
> 
> I'm not even sure if that makes sense to do... Seems like an awful waste of space in a riser otherwise. I do have speaker wires to this area under the floor already for bass shakers.
> 
> My riser would be too small (the same length and width as the couches) to make a major dent as a bass trap...



I like the idea of using the riser, how would you fit in the driver(s)? My driver is only 10 inches high, so I can't fit a sub driver that would face forward.


----------



## Pain Infliction

Can you make it face down?


----------



## carp

The problem is I have found that being able to have the driver face directly into the back of the chair makes a huge difference, so if the driver is facing up or down inside the riser you lose that.


----------



## carp

Something is wrong. I did some testing with movies, I have hardly any headroom with this near sub when it's calibrated to level with the other subs. I have to go down like 15 db's to be able to play a scene loud and have it not clip.

It's a D2 SI 18, so wouldn't that be a 4 ohm load on the inuke meaning around 600 watts? All my front subs are getting 625 watts so I thought this would be enough. Even if I had 1200 watts going to the near sub that would only be 3 more db's meaning I'd have to be 12 db's under the front subs not to clip. 

What am I missing here?


----------



## Pain Infliction

carp said:


> Something is wrong. I did some testing with movies, I have hardly any headroom with this near sub when it's calibrated to level with the other subs. I have to go down like 15 db's to be able to play a scene loud and have it not clip.
> 
> It's a D2 SI 18, so wouldn't that be a 4 ohm load on the inuke meaning around 600 watts? All my front subs are getting 625 watts so I thought this would be enough. Even if I had 1200 watts going to the near sub that would only be 3 more db's meaning I'd have to be 12 db's under the front subs not to clip.
> 
> What am I missing here?



How do you have it wired? Parallel or series?


----------



## Pain Infliction

Also, how do you have your amp connected to the outlet? Own circuit?


----------



## beastaudio

Yea that seems odd. I know for sure that I run the undertaker around 3-4dB below the fronts, but I can still boost them 10dB from there and still be in good shape. Completely different drivers tho....


----------



## carp

It's on it's own circuit. Here is how it's wired:




It's on a single channel of an inuke 3000. Driver moves quite a bit, can't tell if it's moving as much as my up front subs since they are all covered up right now.


----------



## mtg90

Calibrated to level how? Level to all the other subs running together? That could be a problem as multiple sub output > single sub output.

Proper way to set subs up is to match gain levels so all subs see similar power and reach their limits at the same time, at least that is the case when using identical subs and power.


----------



## carp

I am having to do a ton of eq/LT to get the response to look flat though, I bet that's it. Here is what that looks like on the minidsp:




Pretty ridiculous, huh. If I don't do this though I have a monster mountain hump and wouldn't get any of the low stuff below 20hz feel.


----------



## beastaudio

Yea, that'll do it


----------



## carp

mtg90 said:


> Calibrated to level how? Level to all the other subs running together? That could be a problem as multiple sub output > single sub output.
> 
> Proper way to set subs up is to match gain levels so all subs see similar power and reach their limits at the same time, at least that is the case when using identical subs and power.


Yes, level to all the subs running together. 

I have my up front subs powered by the CV5000, 4 subs per channel. Should I measure what I'm getting from 4 subs (1 channel) and subtract 12 db's and that's what I should be feeding the single near field sub?


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Yea, that'll do it


So there is not way to make it work if I want a level frequency response because I run out of headroom way too fast. What the heck, I don't see this happening to anyone else with a nearfield sub...


----------



## mtg90

If you can take a nearfield measurement of one of the front subs about 1" from the cone, level not too high. Then take the same measurement at the NF sub, adjust gain until NF sub matches output of the front sub at the lower frequencies. Should be pretty close then.


----------



## carp

mtg90 said:


> If you can take a nearfield measurement of one of the front subs about 1" from the cone, level not too high. Then take the same measurement at the NF sub, adjust gain until NF sub matches output of the front sub at the lower frequencies. Should be pretty close then.


Ok I'll try it, thanks Matt.


----------



## carp

Hmm it will be a pain to get to the up front drivers. 

What if I take a measurement 1 channel (4 of the corner subs) from the main LP and subract 12 db's and then match that with the near sub? Will that work?


----------



## Pain Infliction

Well everything is connected correctly but your boost in the ULF is killing your headroom.

In theory that would work by subtracting db's but shouldn't it be 9 and not 12?


----------



## Pain Infliction

can you post an uncorrected graph?


----------



## mtg90

The only trouble with that is you don't know what effect the room having on the response between the two locations. To show an example here is graph showing what the raw (no EQ) response of my front subs looked like compared to the rear subs, this taken at the LP, each sub is on a separate amp which are gain matched (they are all getting the same power):










You can see that the rear subs which are much closer happen to be down 10-15dB below 30hz, that is just do to location. The rear subs are in middle of the room while the other two are up against the front wall.

Edit: responding to Carp's question.


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> can you post an uncorrected graph?






Before and after correcting. Near field sub only, no speakers - subs playing from 200hz down.


----------



## carp

mtg90 said:


> The only trouble with that is you don't know what effect the room having on the response between the two locations. To show an example here is graph showing what the raw (no EQ) response of my front subs looked like compared to the rear subs, this taken at the LP, each sub is on a separate amp which are gain matched (they are all getting the same power):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see that the rear subs which are much closer happen to be down 10-15dB below 30hz, that is just do to location. The rear subs are in middle of the room while the other two are up against the front wall.
> 
> 
> Edit: responding to Carp's question.


Gotcha, makes sense, I'll do a close mic measurement. Looks like I'll just have to be ok with not getting the low stuff with the nearfield sub.... I guess I should have done a Popa and gone with 8 nearfield subs!!


----------



## mtg90

You can't get to and measure amplifier output voltage while with a multimeter while running a sine wave can you? This could be at the amp or woofer.


----------



## carp

mtg90 said:


> You can't get to and measure amplifier output voltage while with a multimeter while running a sine wave can you? This could be at the amp or woofer.


No, I don't have a multimeter.


----------



## beastaudio

I don't boost the nearfield at all, just have it there for some smoothing (which it does help even without EQ). Being in the middle of the room you aren't going to get the boost down low like your fronts get naturally from being near the corners. I just let mine have the natural nearfield rolloff and leave it at that. You could maybe find a happy medium between the two and still get some decent boosted gain down low, but nothing like attempting to make it dead flat, all on its own. Just don't see that being feasible with a single ht18 and still keep up with the 8 upfront.


----------



## Scott Simonian

This is why nearfield subs should be resonant and front subs should be sealed. (this is the opposite of what @Archaea proposes)

Far up front with sealed, by the time the sound has reached the MLP the room has contributed greatly to the overall response. It should and will be nearly flat with little to no low end boost.

However up close you will get the native response of the sub system. A sealed system real close will have a drooping response which is it's nature shape. You can boost and flatten that but at a major loss of headroom.


Sheldon, are you using the other channel on your 3k? How about bridging it and giving the HT18 the full amp?



beastaudio said:


> I don't boost the nearfield at all, just have it there for some smoothing (which it does help even without EQ). Being in the middle of the room you aren't going to get the boost down low like your fronts get naturally from being near the corners. I just let mine have the natural nearfield rolloff and leave it at that. You could maybe find a happy medium between the two and still get some decent boosted gain down low, but nothing like attempting to make it dead flat, all on its own. Just don't see that being feasible with a single ht18 and still keep up with the 8 upfront.


Good idea. When I get off my ass and move mine nearfield I will be doing the same. Won't rely on them for


----------



## Pain Infliction

These are all valid points posted on here. How loud do you need it though? It is nearfield and I personally would rather have it to be a flat response and not overpowering the rest of the subs. Unless you want that real kick in the ass bass that is. Then you are just going to have to live with the ULF not being as loud as the rest of the bass. Bridging it is a good idea that Scott mentioned. Try that and see how you like it at the levels you are expecting.


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> I don't boost the nearfield at all, just have it there for some smoothing (which it does help even without EQ). Being in the middle of the room you aren't going to get the boost down low like your fronts get naturally from being near the corners. I just let mine have the natural nearfield rolloff and leave it at that. You could maybe find a happy medium between the two and still get some decent boosted gain down low, but nothing like attempting to make it dead flat, all on its own. Just don't see that being feasible with a single ht18 and still keep up with the 8 upfront.



Makes perfect sense, I don't know why I thought I could get away with boosting the low end that much. I guess I thought since I was so close to it but that doesn't make up for all that boosting. Thanks for the help Brandon.


----------



## Archaea

nonsense Scott.

I don't have time to respond right now ---- but having tried both.....

Nearfield sealed any day, anytime. It's the ONLY time I've felt sub 15hz content makes a lick of difference.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> This is why nearfield subs should be resonant and front subs should be sealed. (this is the opposite of what @Archaea proposes)
> 
> Far up front with sealed, by the time the sound has reached the MLP the room has contributed greatly to the overall response. It should and will be nearly flat with little to no low end boost.
> 
> However up close you will get the native response of the sub system. A sealed system real close will have a drooping response which is it's nature shape. You can boost and flatten that but at a major loss of headroom.
> 
> 
> Sheldon, are you using the other channel on your 3k? How about bridging it and giving the HT18 the full amp?
> 
> 
> 
> Good idea. When I get off my ass and move mine nearfield I will be doing the same. Won't rely on them for


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> These are all valid points posted on here. How loud do you need it though? It is nearfield and I personally would rather have it to be a flat response and not overpowering the rest of the subs. Unless you want that real kick in the ass bass that is. Then you are just going to have to live with the ULF not being as loud as the rest of the bass. Bridging it is a good idea that Scott mentioned. Try that and see how you like it at the levels you are expecting.



I may just try it out, I hate to damage it though that's a lot of watts for 1 driver.


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> nonsense Scott.
> 
> I don't have time to respond right now ---- but having tried both.....
> 
> Nearfield sealed any day, anytime. It's the ONLY time I've felt sub 15hz content makes a lick of difference.




You tried the Caps nearfield? I thought you never got around to it. I think those would be amazing nearfield. 

I'm telling you, I can feel the F'n Irene scene in my room for the first time and it's not from the near field sub. It's not Austin's room but it's worth having, pretty cool.


----------



## Scott Simonian

I forgot that you had Crowsons too. Hmm. So those along with the front stage of bass didn't do it for ya, huh? 

Just curious... what does the nearfield sub do that the Crowson and front don't?


----------



## Scott Simonian

Archaea said:


> nonsense Scott.
> 
> I don't have time to respond right now ---- but having tried both.....
> 
> Nearfield sealed any day, anytime. It's the ONLY time I've felt sub 15hz content makes a lick of difference.



Nonsense? Why say that?

Up close the sealed will be far, far down in response 15-30hz compared to a resonant system. It's not theory, it's fact.

What you feel and like at home is another story. I'm not saying what you like is wrong but that the shape of response is not as effective as a resonant used up close.

Did you ever use your Captivators nearfield?


----------



## Archaea

Sheldon I boost my nearfield lowest frequencies quite a bit. And in my opinion the lowest frequencies are the coolest characteristic with the nearfield subs!

You have this in your favor for nearfield -- it doesn't have to be turned up as high to feel the nearfield.
Don't try to level match one sub nearfield with 8 up front. never gonna happen.

Shouldn't have to happen. It's not losing any dB for distance.

Play the track from Xmen - On the Beach when Magneto is controlling all the missles - with and without nearfield sealed subs. It's the only time I've ever thought - man that scene is cool, and was probably the scene that almost solely convinved me to keep the eight sealed subs over the two ported caps.


I 100% disagree with Scottt here, no offense Scott. I'd take my ported cap or a set of horns up front that don't dig deep because nothing I've ever heard matters to me for subsonic frequencies at the front of the room -- so why waste the energy trying? Just produce from 15hz on up at the front of the room - but you can feel that really really low stuff when it's firing directly into your back with nearfield sealed.

I tried nearfield ported with the caps. I wasn't a fan. I know dominguez1 loves ported nearfield, so this may all be a subjective thing.

IN that case Scott's right. I'm right, your right. We can all be right and completely dissent.


----------



## Scott Simonian

No offense taken at all. I linked your name to my post because I wanted your opinion on this. 

I'm no more right than you are as this is about Sheldon and what he wants. 

I'm surprised that you enjoy the nearfield subs for


----------



## Archaea

I tried nearfield with the caps at my old house. I thought they sounded too agressive that close. Like a blunt instrument, instead of smooth like they did at the front of the room. I admit I didn't have any subs up front to compliment them, but I didn't like the effect at all personally. I didn't try ported behind me with sealed up front in the new room - I wasn't terribly excited to try it - TBH, becuase I wasn't impressed with the effect nearfield at my old place.

But the thing I like about sealed subs nearfield is the lowest frequencies and that driver excursion feel directed towards your back back. Ported wouldn't have that, or would have it to a lesser degree since at 20hz and below it's either A) not dealing with much excursion because of the cabinet assistance, so the driver is barely moving or B) hitting an HPF and being scaled back.

I think I most like a single sub directly behind me too, like carp is doing, because with more than 2 - in my case three - if higher frequencies are directed to the driver you can hear it's behind you as you begin to turn it up louder than the mains for more tactile feel. I've not experimented with the 40hz LPF that popalock used on my nearfield. I've not done much experimenting of any sort with the nearfield except using the Symmetrix 551E to make a fairly flat EQ starting place, trying 1, 2 and 3 nearfield, and playing with the AVR crossover settings.

I do like the nearfield subs quite a bit more than the tactile trasducers (buttkicker mini lfe) that was I was using before. 1 nearfield sealed sub is best for nearfield experience (IMO), but only for the center seat. 2 nearfield subs give two seats the benefit, but pulls the sound to one side in my room and that annoyed me so much I knew it wasn't going to work nearly immediately, but kept it that way for longer than I should have, three is my happy place beacause your center seat and two other seats are both still pretty good - the bass sound pulls a bit towards the center of the room which isn't distracting or even obvious, for those three seats....
My fourth seat is a throwaway seat because it's very close to a wall, and with four chairs and one chari in the exact middle - the fourth chair is just a junk chair considering audio accoustics, so I'm not even trying for anything there. I may hookup the existing buttkicker in that chair so it at least has something fun, though I'd have to buy another iNuke DSP 1000 amp, and my motivation on that is pretty low if I'm honest. Three good seats works for most of my use cases. When I have friends over it's usually just one, or a couple of friends, and my wife won't watch a movie with us when my guy friends are over --- so that typically is just three of us.

So for now I've settled on 3 nearfield and 5 up front.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> I forgot that you had Crowsons too. Hmm. So those along with the front stage of bass didn't do it for ya, huh?
> 
> Just curious... what does the nearfield sub do that the Crowson and front don't?


I already had a HSU MBM that I took the feet off and layed it on it's side so that the driver faced right into the back of my chair, and it does add an extra chest punch at low master volumes that the Crowson and up front speakers and subs just can't do without a lot more volume so right off the bat there is that advantage. If I'm listening to music for long periods of time I always revert back to just the mains with no subs but it's fun and nice to have the extra punch when I want it. 

For movies it is yet to be determined. I turned off all the boosting of the low frequencies of the near sub and just matched the highest point of the frequency response of the near sub with the front subs and watched the Hulk scene. Wow, that was the best I've heard that scene! Mains set to large blended with front subs and now near sub with the Crowson crossed at 30hz. I ran it again with the near sub muted and it's still good but not as voilent/agressive/scary sounding/feeling. 



Archaea said:


> Sheldon I boost my nearfield lowest frequencies quite a bit. And in my opinion the lowest frequencies are the coolest characteristic with the nearfield subs!
> 
> You have this in your favor for nearfield -- it doesn't have to be turned up as high to feel the nearfield.
> Don't try to level match one sub nearfield with 8 up front. never gonna happen.
> 
> Shouldn't have to happen. It's not losing any dB for distance.
> 
> Play the track from Xmen - On the Beach when Magneto is controlling all the missles - with and without nearfield sealed subs. It's the only time I've ever thought - man that scene is cool, and was probably the scene that almost solely convinved me to keep the eight sealed subs over the two ported caps.
> 
> 
> I 100% disagree with Scottt here, no offense Scott. I'd take my ported cap or a set of horns up front that don't dig deep because nothing I've ever heard matters to me for subsonic frequencies at the front of the room -- so why waste the energy trying? Just produce from 15hz on up at the front of the room - but you can feel that really really low stuff when it's firing directly into your back with nearfield sealed.
> 
> I tried nearfield ported with the caps. I wasn't a fan. I know dominguez1 loves ported nearfield, so this may all be a subjective thing.
> 
> IN that case Scott's right. I'm right, your right. We can all be right and completely dissent.


I'll experiment more with smaller boosts down low and turning down the near sub more until I find what I like best, it's going to be tough to beat what I just heard with the Hulk scene.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> So there is not way to make it work if I want a level frequency response because I run out of headroom way too fast. What the heck, I don't see this happening to anyone else with a nearfield sub...





carp said:


> I already had a HSU MBM that I took the feet off and layed it on it's side so that the driver faced right into the back of my chair, and it does add an extra chest punch at low master volumes that the Crowson and up front speakers and subs just can't do without a lot more volume so right off the bat there is that advantage. If I'm listening to music for long periods of time I always revert back to just the mains with no subs but it's fun and nice to have the extra punch when I want it.
> 
> For movies it is yet to be determined. I turned off all the boosting of the low frequencies of the near sub and just matched the highest point of the frequency response of the near sub with the front subs and watched the Hulk scene. Wow, that was the best I've heard that scene! Mains set to large blended with front subs and now near sub with the Crowson crossed at 30hz. I ran it again with the near sub muted and it's still good but not as voilent/agressive/scary sounding/feeling.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll experiment more with smaller boosts down low and turning down the near sub more until I find what I like best, it's going to be tough to beat what I just heard with the Hulk scene.


Sounds to me like you are getting at least close to your preference then  I still jimmy the sub level knob on the nearfield almost every time I am down there screwing around. I end up settling back to a few dB lower than the main subs, but it is still fun to crank the thing hard and get a nice back massage...


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Sounds to me like you are getting at least close to your preference then  *I still jimmy the sub level knob on the nearfield almost every time I am down there* screwing around. I end up settling back to a few dB lower than the main subs, but it is still fun to crank the thing hard and get a nice back massage...



Haha, you and I are too much alike ^ - can't ever leave well enough alone.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Haha, you and I are too much alike ^ - can't ever leave well enough alone.


I think you and I are among the top 5 of guys around here for percentage of music listening, if not 1 and 2 respectively. I never stop listening to music. It's either downstairs or up in the den, but it is on from the time I get home to the time I go to sleep. As you already know it is a mixed bag with music and sub level entirely depends on your mood, and the recording. I honestly don't see how anyone can just leave the sub trims completely alone. It can change an entire album dramatically with a click or two one direction or another at times


----------



## d_c

I'm there with you guys and I'm beginning to think it's genetic. Started with my dad, then me, now my daughter. We have music running day to night too and it just gets out of control when my daughter gets home from school and jams her tunes in the basement when I'm the floor above doing the same. Our little family of bassheads...


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> I think you and I are among the top 5 of guys around here for percentage of music listening, if not 1 and 2 respectively. I never stop listening to music. It's either downstairs or up in the den, but it is on from the time I get home to the time I go to sleep. As you already know it is a mixed bag with music and sub level entirely depends on your mood, and the recording. *I honestly don't see how anyone can just leave the sub trims completely alone. It can change an entire album dramatically with a click or two one direction or another at times *


So true!! Here's the problem though (not really a problem, I LOVE having this much control). I now have too many ways to tweak the bass sitting here using my laptop. I can tweak:

1. The inuke dsp for the bass for the 215's (and I use 2 separate settings, 1 for the midbass and 1 for the lower bass turning up the house curve more or less or flat using the dynamic eq), 

2. Minidsp - up front subs

3. Minidsp - the nearfield sub

4. Minidsp - Crowson 

5. Sub trim on avr (obviously) out which raises or lowers #2 ,3,4 

Usually I have the up front subs off for music, but still...





d_c said:


> I'm there with you guys and I'm beginning to think it's genetic. Started with my dad, then me, now my daughter. We have music running day to night too and it just gets out of control when my daughter gets home from school and jams her tunes in the basement when I'm the floor above doing the same. Our little family of bassheads...


Haha, very cool - you mean she's cranking up the powered Macke's/horn subs down there?!?!?!   I was about to say she couldn't compete with you when it comes to volume but maybe she can! 

BTW, I remember when people used to tell me I'd grow out of listening to music all the time. They have stopped saying that.


----------



## lbrown105

I am kind of there with you guys on the music thing too. If I were just playing movies I wouldn't constantly be trying to improve the sound and I surely wouldn't have 3 horn subs. Movies are a lot of fun but really loud music for short bursts is just plain exhilarating if the recording is good. Have you heard "Sick Like Me" from In this Moment? Not sure if you like the femal vocals but the drums and bass quality are excellent.


----------



## lbrown105

^sorry if I killed the conversation with an unpopular song suggestion. It sure went cold around here after that. whoops


----------



## carp

lbrown105 said:


> ^sorry if I killed the conversation with an unpopular song suggestion. It sure went cold around here after that. whoops


Haha, not at all Lance I missed that post. I'll check that song out tomorrow. I saw In This Moment open for Ozzy a few years back they didn't impress too much but it could have been the venue/sound guys because Ozzy (zach Wilde on guitar) didn't sound great and I've been to other Ozzy shows that sounded great. 

Speaking of metal female vocalists I was cranking up some Arch Enemy today.


----------



## Pain Infliction

Not a female vocalist but I bet this song would sound good in your basement!

edit: wrong song


----------



## lbrown105

have to try that one when I get home.


----------



## Pain Infliction

Oops! I posted the wrong song. I meant this one. The drummer is awesome and I love the transitions in the song. Almost sounds like three songs put together. You guys ever heard it before?


----------



## lbrown105

yeah that's pretty good. Vocals are a little hard in spots for me but the drummer is very good and some of the vocals are very good too in other spots.


----------



## Pain Infliction

lbrown105 said:


> yeah that's pretty good. Vocals are a little hard in spots for me but the drummer is very good and some of the vocals are very good too in other spots.


Oh you liked it? I found that song by accident one day when I use to fight mma. I was looking for some crazy metal songs to train to. I am not real big into the yelling part put the over all song is pretty good IMO.


----------



## Frohlich

Archaea said:


> I tried nearfield with the caps at my old house. I thought they sounded too agressive that close. Like a blunt instrument, instead of smooth like they did at the front of the room. I admit I didn't have any subs up front to compliment them, but I didn't like the effect at all personally. I didn't try ported behind me with sealed up front in the new room - I wasn't terribly excited to try it - TBH, becuase I wasn't impressed with the effect nearfield at my old place.
> 
> But the thing I like about sealed subs nearfield is the lowest frequencies and that driver excursion feel directed towards your back back. Ported wouldn't have that, or would have it to a lesser degree since at 20hz and below it's either A) not dealing with much excursion because of the cabinet assistance, so the driver is barely moving or B) hitting an HPF and being scaled back.
> 
> I think I most like a single sub directly behind me too, like carp is doing, because with more than 2 - in my case three - if higher frequencies are directed to the driver you can hear it's behind you as you begin to turn it up louder than the mains for more tactile feel. I've not experimented with the 40hz LPF that popalock used on my nearfield. I've not done much experimenting of any sort with the nearfield except using the Symmetrix 551E to make a fairly flat EQ starting place, trying 1, 2 and 3 nearfield, and playing with the AVR crossover settings.
> 
> I do like the nearfield subs quite a bit more than the tactile trasducers (buttkicker mini lfe) that was I was using before. 1 nearfield sealed sub is best for nearfield experience (IMO), but only for the center seat. 2 nearfield subs give two seats the benefit, but pulls the sound to one side in my room and that annoyed me so much I knew it wasn't going to work nearly immediately, but kept it that way for longer than I should have, three is my happy place beacause your center seat and two other seats are both still pretty good - the bass sound pulls a bit towards the center of the room which isn't distracting or even obvious, for those three seats....
> My fourth seat is a throwaway seat because it's very close to a wall, and with four chairs and one chari in the exact middle - the fourth chair is just a junk chair considering audio accoustics, so I'm not even trying for anything there. I may hookup the existing buttkicker in that chair so it at least has something fun, though I'd have to buy another iNuke DSP 1000 amp, and my motivation on that is pretty low if I'm honest. Three good seats works for most of my use cases. When I have friends over it's usually just one, or a couple of friends, and my wife won't watch a movie with us when my guy friends are over --- so that typically is just three of us.
> 
> So for now I've settled on 3 nearfield and 5 up front.


I have only experienced a nearfield sub once. I was a local AVS member that mainly hangs out in the Sub forum here at AVS. He had that thing turned up so high it was hurting my teeth (no joke). He LOVED it...me, not so much. Thats what is so awesome about this hobby, lots of ways to go about it find whatever makes you happy.


----------



## carp

I got my replacement screen yesterday from Elite. It looks amazing!! It is their 4K material and compared to the standard stuff I bought off of Amazon it's night and day. 




Here it is from 1 arm length away, I can't see any weave or pattern, nothing. 






Here is the shelf I built for the 212 center channel. The brackets are supposedly rated for 500 pounds each so I assume I'm good to go, I found the studs plus I have really thick wood paneling in between the dry wall and the studs (which made finding the studs really difficult). 




I made 4 of these extensions from the wall to hang the screen on. As per Elite's instructions I have 3 at the top and one at the bottom. At the time of this pic I hadn't yet realized that I had the metal bracket upside down. Easy fix when I realized my mistake. 














They sent me another black backing so I used one on the back of the screen and one on my old screen wall. 






Here is a before shot:






And after. My head is now 9' 4" inches away and I thought I'd have to scoot my rows back a bit but I don't think I'll need to, it looks great. Same exact size as my wall screen, 158" diagonal 2:35:1.





For movie nights I'll just swivel the 215's so they aren't toed in so much and no one will have any part of the screen blocked.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Bout-mutha-****ing-time, brotha!!! Wow! 

Nice job, Sheldon. 

Welcome to the AT club.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Bout-mutha-****ing-time, brotha!!! Wow!
> 
> Nice job, Sheldon.
> 
> Welcome to the AT club.



Haha, I knew you'd say that... and your right.  

I'm not fully AT though since my LR aren't behind the screen but I like how 2 channel music sounds with them were they are.


----------



## carp

I forgot to thank Tim for his floating screen idea. It doesn't look much like a floating screen since the sides of the frame go pretty much all the way to the 2 stacks of subs but still I love the look and it was pretty easy to do.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> Haha, I knew you'd say that... and your right.
> 
> I'm not fully AT though since my LR aren't behind the screen but I like how 2 channel music sounds with them were they are.


Hey that still counts 100%. You have an AT screen material with a speaker behind it, the most important one at that. Having one or all behind it is just a matter of configuration. Some may argue what you are doing is worthy method. Considering how much music you listen to, I'd recommend no other way for you.


----------



## Nabs17

Sheldon...it looks amazing man...good job. One of these days, I think I'll join the AT screen club.


----------



## carp

Nabs17 said:


> Sheldon...it looks amazing man...good job. One of these days, I think I'll join the AT screen club.


Ha, people here were trying to convince me for literally years!! Eventually I think it happens to all of us, your time is coming!!


----------



## Pain Infliction

carp, do you have velvet over your subs? If you do, does it change the sound in any way?


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> carp, do you have velvet over your subs? If you do, does it change the sound in any way?


Yes I do. I don't think so, they don't measure any differently and sound the same. I think the frequency would have to be above 200 hz or so to matter but I'm just guessing.


----------



## Pain Infliction

Is it just regular velvet or some kind of acoustic velvet? I am curious because I might do something similar to cover my subs.


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> Is it just regular velvet or some kind of acoustic velvet? I am curious because I might do something similar to cover my subs.


No, just regular velvet from JoAnn's.


----------



## NWCgrad

Looks really nice carp. The new screen material looks awesome. I bet you are thrilled to have the center speaker vertical again (after the brief taste over the holidays). Nice to have all the horns on the same vertical plane, I wish mine were (at some point I need to suck it up and go AT).


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> Looks really nice carp. The new screen material looks awesome. I bet you are thrilled to have the center speaker vertical again (after the brief taste over the holidays). Nice to have all the horns on the same vertical plane, I wish mine were (at some point I need to suck it up and go AT).


Thanks Steve.  I'm glad it's done, and it really is a nice audio improvement especially when I am reclined. One issue I need to figure out, my masking panels aren't quite tall enough to fit like they did before so I need to attach something to them to make them taller.


----------



## AV Hack

Carp,
Nice build. The screen looks 100% better.
Did you do any time alignment on the subs with your DSP?


----------



## desertdome

Looks great!

Since it looks like you have the vertical space, did you think about going 16:9?


----------



## d_c

Looks awesome, nice idea on the standoffs for the floating screen too


----------



## carp

AV Hack said:


> Carp,
> Nice build. The screen looks 100% better.
> Did you do any time alignment on the subs with your DSP?


Thanks! Oh yes, lots of tweaking with distance settings on the minidsp. Mixing ported and sealed plus a near field sub behind my seat would have been impossible without dsp distance settings. 



desertdome said:


> Looks great!
> 
> Since it looks like you have the vertical space, did you think about going 16:9?


No, I'm still height limited more than width. The screen is 62 inches tall which is as big as I could go without blocking part of the screen with my feet with reclining. 

Also, I still absolutely love going huge when it's movie time, it would be such a let down to have movies be smaller than tv.



d_c said:


> Looks awesome, nice idea on the standoffs for the floating screen too


Ha thanks Doug I was hoping you would approve  - Tim gave me the idea for a floating screen and I think it's a great idea not just for looks but for price. So cheap, 2 dollars each for the brackets and a 2x4 cut into 16 inch pieces for a total of 11 dollars!! The brackets for the shelf for the 212 were more expensive though, 9 bucks each since they have to be very solid. Still, I think it was easier for my to build a shelf than it would have been to build a stand for the 212.


----------



## raynist

carp said:


> I got my replacement screen yesterday from Elite. It looks amazing!! It is their 4K material and compared to the standard stuff I bought off of Amazon it's night and day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is from 1 arm length away, I can't see any weave or pattern, nothing.


So how much did this end up costing?

I am looking for an AT screen for this summer and was thinking about the one you and asoofi got. I thinking runs about $500. How murch more was this material?


----------



## carp

raynist said:


> So how much did this end up costing?
> 
> I am looking for an AT screen for this summer and was thinking about the one you and asoofi got. I thinking runs about $500. How much more was this material?


That's the thing - there was no extra charge!! They even told me to keep the old screen. It must be an issue with some of their screens that they are aware of and don't want to fight it. 500 bucks for this is such a great deal. All I did was call Elite and they had me fill out an on line form including proof of purchase and pics of the issues with the screen. 

Now, for some reason Asim's screen looked really good so I don't know what the deal is but both me and another KC avs friend scrappydue had horrible looking screens and Elite replaced them with the 4K stuff. 

@asoofi1

Asim, you could do the same thing I'm sure if you want but from what I saw of your screen shots there is no reason to.


----------



## raynist

carp said:


> That's the thing - there was no extra charge!! They even told me to keep the old screen. It must be an issue with some of their screens that they are aware of and don't want to fight it. 500 bucks for this is such a great deal. All I did was call Elite and they had me fill out an on line form including proof of purchase and pics of the issues with the screen.
> 
> Now, for some reason Asim's screen looked really good so I don't know what the deal is but both me and another KC avs friend scrappydue had horrible looking screens and Elite replaced them with the 4K stuff.
> 
> @asoofi1
> 
> Asim, you could do the same thing I'm sure if you want but from what I saw of your screen shots there is no reason to.


Interesting. So the replacement material was supposed to be the same as what you got in the first place or did they replace it with something that was supposed to be better?


----------



## asoofi1

carp said:


> That's the thing - there was no extra charge!! They even told me to keep the old screen. It must be an issue with some of their screens that they are aware of and don't want to fight it. 500 bucks for this is such a great deal. All I did was call Elite and they had me fill out an on line form including proof of purchase and pics of the issues with the screen.
> 
> Now, for some reason Asim's screen looked really good so I don't know what the deal is but both me and another KC avs friend scrappydue had horrible looking screens and Elite replaced them with the 4K stuff.
> 
> @asoofi1
> 
> Asim, you could do the same thing I'm sure if you want but from what I saw of your screen shots there is no reason to.


I'm so glad they took care of you... the screen looks great...Elite is definitely stepping up to give the competition a good run...I see very little reason for anyone to spend $1000 more.

I love the floating 2x4 supporting the screen and the shelves...really don't need to build a false wall unless you're going for a baffle wall. I have two eye hooks in the ceiling right now with chains on each, then S-hooks just holding up screen...my 'floating' solution for now. I might just run a AT/velvet-y curtain above the screen to cover the area up and still use heights. 

Did you get the brackets for the 212 at home depot? Won't have to see any stand legs with your way and the shifters won't have anything blocking the ports...great idea.


----------



## asoofi1

raynist said:


> Interesting. So the replacement material was supposed to be the same as what you got in the first place or did they replace it with something that was supposed to be better?


 @carp first got what elite calls acousticpro2. Then replaced it with their newer acousticpro3 material, aka 4k material aka even tinier perforations.


----------



## carp

asoofi1 said:


> I'm so glad they took care of you... the screen looks great...Elite is definitely stepping up to give the competition a good run...I see very little reason for anyone to spend $1000 more.
> 
> I love the floating 2x4 supporting the screen and the shelves...really don't need to build a false wall unless you're going for a baffle wall. I have two eye hooks in the ceiling right now with chains on each, then S-hooks just holding up screen...my 'floating' solution for now. I might just run a AT/velvet-y curtain above the screen to cover the area up and still use heights.
> 
> Did you get the brackets for the 212 at home depot? Won't have to see any stand legs with your way and the shifters won't have anything blocking the ports...great idea.


I got them at lowes but I'm sure Home Depot would have something similar. They say they are rated for 500 pounds.


----------



## raynist

asoofi1 said:


> @carp first got what elite calls acousticpro2. Then replaced it with their newer acousticpro3 material, aka 4k material aka even tinier perforations.


Thanks. 

You got acousticpro2 also but it looked fine?


----------



## Archaea

Looking good carp! I need to come over and visit again. You've made a lot of changes to your room since I've last stopped by.

How is the projector working against the AT fabric with the room lights on as compared to your painted wall? I know that was a concern since you like to watch sports with the room light on.


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> Looking good carp! I need to come over and visit again. You've made a lot of changes to your room since I've last stopped by.
> 
> How is the projector working against the AT fabric with the room lights on as compared to your painted wall? I know that was a concern since you like to watch sports with the room light on.


Thanks man - my fears were unfounded. I put the AT screen up sitting on the ground so I could compare with the wall and I am losing no brightness and the clarity is just as good too. In fact it's so good I don't think I'll even have to move back my rows which I had planned on doing. One issue is on some scenes I can see the pixels (very rare, only on scenes that have one bright color on an image that doesn't move while the camera moves) but I know that won't be an issue when I get the 8000 since I've seen first hand it does not have the screen door effect like the 8350 does. 

Still watching tv and sports with the lights on, looks great.


----------



## lbrown105

looks great. I think you will really enjoy the placement of sounds with speaker placement behind the AT


----------



## carp

lbrown105 said:


> looks great. I think you will really enjoy the placement of sounds with speaker placement behind the AT


Thanks Lance. For sure, I could tell right away the benefits of having the 212 vertical and up a lot higher.


----------



## d_c

What height is the center of your center and horn of the 215s?


----------



## carp

I thought a lot about what height I wanted to put the center. When I had my L and R 212's I had them on 18 inch stands which put the center of the CD right at ear height. However, I felt like when I stood up the difference in the sound was obvious so I figured I'd go higher with the center 212. Also I want the back row couch and bar table to get good sound from the center as well.

So, my shelf is 25 inches from the ground which puts the center of the 212 CD at 45 inches off the ground. The center of the 215 CD is higher at 48" but I figured I didn't need to get them exact and I don't want the 212 too high since it's dispersion seems to be a lot less than the 215. I figure I can always add height to the 212 shelf if I feel I need to, I don't think I will though.


----------



## carp

@Archaea @stitch1

Tim and Jonathan, we were talking recently about whether or not to use masking panels. 

Here is with and without, I just can't go without them since I'm so used to it:






The green of that guys jacket doesn't look over saturated, must be the camera. Anyway, to me it's not close I gotta have panels. I wish I didn't care because I love the look of a 2:35:1 screen when the projector is off compared to 16:9. 

These pics ^ make the room look darker than it is, here is how much light is on. 






Also, my panels were about 1/2 short so I had to rig up some McGyver stuff to get them to fit using some spare prostar tape (black as velvet stuff that covers my panels self adhesive) that I had left over. It's a temporary solution though, I'm going to have to get that plastic company to cut me some more sheets that fit perfect like before and either wrap/staple them in velvet or buy some more prostar. 

Also, my screen came with 3 top brackets and a bottom bracket so the sides of the screen are not real solid when taking out and putting back in the panels. I'm going to have to get 2 more brackets fro the right and left bottom of the screen so that it is more solid for when I'm messing with the panels.


----------



## craig john

AWESOME STUFF Sheldon! Really well done. 

However, you need a different picture to show off the masking panels. That one hurts. 

Craig


----------



## carp

craig john said:


> AWESOME STUFF Sheldon! Really well done.
> 
> However, you need a different picture to show off the masking panels. That one hurts.
> 
> Craig


Thanks Craig!!

Oh, man... what can I say. I'm not a huge Packers fan but when I went up to the kitchen right after the Seahawks scored the winning touchdown I picked up an orange and slammed it down on the island, orange juice everywere. Haha, sometimes I get a little too emotionally involved in NFL games. I quickly calmed down, just a little temper tantrum like a little kid. 

Seriously, I felt like some of the Packers were trying to throw the game. Especially Clinton Dix on that 2 point try. When I watched it live I was already thinking in my head, "when he picks this off can he run it back for 2? What's the rule on that??" But no, he just stood there and watched. Very suspicious to me. 

The Superbowl has little interest for me. I hate both teams. I do like Russel Wilson but that's about it. Still, I'm having the superbowl party again and I'm sure I'll have a good time. 

As for the flat footballs, I'd be interested to see what the Patriots fumble rate is compared to other teams. A flatter football would be harder for a defender to cause a fumble. Everyone is talking about the one game I bet they have done this for every game.


----------



## craig john

carp said:


> Thanks Craig!!
> 
> Oh, man... what can I say. I'm not a huge Packers fan but when I went up to the kitchen right after the Seahawks scored the winning touchdown I picked up an orange and slammed it down on the island, orange juice everywere. Haha, sometimes I get a little too emotionally involved in NFL games. I quickly calmed down, just a little temper tantrum like a little kid.
> 
> 
> 
> I was speechless and in shock after the game ended. I'm still not over it... don't know if I ever will be.
> 
> 
> 
> carp said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Superbowl has little interest for me. I hate both teams. I do like Russel Wilson but that's about it. Still, I'm having the superbowl party again and I'm sure I'll have a good time.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm hoping for a 0-0 tie after regulation, then 4 more quarters of scoreless football, after which they call it a draw and nobody wins.
> 
> 
> 
> carp said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for the flat footballs, I'd be interested to see what the Patriots fumble rate is compared to other teams. A flatter football would be harder for a defender to cause a fumble. Everyone is talking about the one game I bet they have done this for every game.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don Shula referred to him as Belicheat a few weeks ago. How right he was.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## jedimastergrant

Ah so you finally caved. Glad to see it. Awesome deal on the screen! 

So your next upgrade is the panty 8000? I assume sometime in the next several months. I have a feeling you will be shocked at how much brighter it makes your larger than life screen.


----------



## jedimastergrant

So now that you have the near field subs have you felt the need to adjust the crowson? Or did I miss you talking about that already?


----------



## carp

jedimastergrant said:


> Ah so you finally caved. Glad to see it. Awesome deal on the screen!
> 
> So your next upgrade is the panty 8000? I assume sometime in the next several months. I have a feeling you will be shocked at how much brighter it makes your larger than life screen.





jedimastergrant said:


> So now that you have the near field subs have you felt the need to adjust the crowson? Or did I miss you talking about that already?



Yep, waiting on tax refund to see how long it will be until I get the 8000. I use dynamic mode on the 8350 which looks quite good IMO so I'll be interested to see how the brightest mode on the Panny compares. 

Haha, I adjust the Crowson all the time, I adjust the nearfield sub all the time, I adjust the 8 subs up front all the time, I adjust the bass on the 215's all the time, etc. 

I do have a single setting for movies and from there I just adjust the sub trim on the avr but for music I'm constantly making changes depending on the song and my mood. It would drive some people crazy but I love having this amount of control over the sound/feel of the bass.


----------



## beastaudio

Did you ever find a happy point for your nearfield with boosting the bottom end?


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Did you ever find a happy point for your nearfield with boosting the bottom end?


Yes, I pulled down the higher stuff much less and left the low end alone - which I guess is still boosting the lower end in essence but not nearly like I was doing. The annoying thing is I can dial in the near sub, front wall subs, and run the 215's as large for 2 channel and I can also dial in all of the above with the center channel but it takes 2 different distance settings to do it. I can't get all of it dialed in at the same time. 

I did recently discover that if I set my center channel to large then suddenly the distance settings on the subs for 2 channel suddenly work just fine so that is how I have been running it lately. 

My concern about this is that the frequencies dedicated to the center channel for 5.1/7.1 below 80hz will not be hot like I like them, instead they will be flat because even though my avr says mains large + subs for routing the bass I don't think that works the same way for the center. 

When measuring with the 5 channel omnimic disk through just the center channel the response looks good but still... I don't think the center channel content is house curved.


----------



## Frohlich

carp said:


> My concern about this is that the frequencies dedicated to the center channel for 5.1/7.1 below 80hz will not be hot like I like them, instead they will be flat because even though my avr says mains large + subs for routing the bass I don't think that works the same way for the center.


You know, that is an excellent point. As somebody who is toying with the idea of switching from the 212 HT to the 215 RM, I bet the house curve I have on my bass would not apply to any of my three front channels if I switched. So if I where to move to three 215 RMs up front and move the crossover from the current setting of 80HZ for the front three channels to something lower like 40HZ, none of the stuff from 40HZ to 80HZ running through the front three channels would have the house curve. On my system, there would be no way to EQ the front three channels to get it back either since I just run it through my AV8801 with XT32 and just run my subs about 7db hot.


----------



## carp

Frohlich said:


> You know, that is an excellent point. As somebody who is toying with the idea of switching from the 212 HT to the 215 RM, I bet the house curve I have on my bass would not apply to any of my three front channels if I switched. So if I where to move to three 215 RMs up front and move the crossover from the current setting of 80HZ for the front three channels to something lower like 40HZ, none of the stuff from 40HZ to 80HZ running through the front three channels would have the house curve. On my system, there would be no way to EQ the front three channels to get it back either since I just run it through my AV8801 with XT32 and just run my subs about 7db hot.


Yep, exactly. IMO unless you have a way to run the bass hot in your speakers then you should not lower the crossover point - assuming you like the bass hot from whatever crossover you were using, in your case 80hz.


----------



## carp

Or you could run them as large and have the bass routed to the mains + subs. The RM's are sealed right, so you can't really hurt them by running them large. I'm running my 212 center as large and it's ported but I don't think I could hurt it if I tried.


----------



## Frohlich

carp said:


> Or you could run them as large and have the bass routed to the mains + subs. The RM's are sealed right, so you can't really hurt them by running them large. I'm running my 212 center as large and it's ported but I don't think I could hurt it if I tried.


I hadn't thought of that but I think if the sub is playing the same signal in the 40hz to 80hz range as the mains wouldn't it basically drown out the mains for that specific frequency....since the subs are playing louder with the house curve being applied? Not contradicting you, just thinking out loud and trying to think this through.


----------



## carp

Frohlich said:


> I hadn't thought of that but I think if the sub is playing the same signal in the 40hz to 80hz range as the mains wouldn't it basically drown out the mains for that specific frequency....since the subs are playing louder with the house curve being applied? Not contradicting you, just thinking out loud and trying to think this through.


Yes, you would have to make sure you mess with the distance settings of the subs while taking freq response sweeps. Take sweeps of the mains by themselves first, then the subs by themselves, then together and tweak the distance of the subs until the response curve is higher than the curve was with the subs alone and obviously also making sure the response is good around the crossover point and also move the mic around to the different seats to make sure you aren't getting cancellations there either. 

I view my 215's as subs when I measure/dial them in and to me it's beneficial to have mains as large because it's just like having 2 more sub placements to even out the freq response.

Also don't forget to play with boosting the sub trim (I also play with boosting speaker bass dsp) to make sure that as you boost the bass you aren't causing any cancellations.

It's a lots of work to get it all right but it's fun to me and I have learned a ton by trial and error.


----------



## carp

Thanks to Jonathan I just bought the Panasonic 8000. He sent me a link today for yet a lower sale price from B&H Photo for 1499. I was so close to buying one from B&H last night for 1699 and now that it's 1499 I had to do it. 

I got pretty lucky, AT screen with awesome 4K material and new projector for under 2000!! I did buy a nice mount though, so 2100 total. Now... I hope it all gets here by the superbowl!!


----------



## Scott Simonian

Nice!

Hey, good luck with that. I love me some Panasonic but the 8000 has had issues. Hopefully yours is cool.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Nice!
> 
> Hey, good luck with that. I love me some Panasonic but the 8000 has had issues. Hopefully yours is cool.


Uh oh, didn't know that. Well, I doubt it had as many issues as the 8350!! Luckily I finally got a good one but it seems there are a lot of lemons out there .


----------



## Scott Simonian

Oh right, I forgot you had issues with your 8350. My dad has one and uses it like a tv. We change out the bulb once a year. No issues.

The 8000 is feature-rich but had (has?) some uniformity and QC issues. I hope this isn't coming off as a put down. I love Panasonic. Just wanted to let you know. There is a good chance that yours will be fine.

No s**t, just got an email right now from Projector People and it says "Best price ever on the Panasonic PT-AE8000! Only $1,500" Hhaha!


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Oh right, I forgot you had issues with your 8350. My dad has one and uses it like a tv. We change out the bulb once a year. No issues.
> 
> The 8000 is feature-rich but had (has?) some uniformity and QC issues. I hope this isn't coming off as a put down. I love Panasonic. Just wanted to let you know. There is a good chance that yours will be fine.
> 
> No s**t, just got an email right now from Projector People and it says "Best price ever on the Panasonic PT-AE8000! Only $1,500" Hhaha!


Haha nice!! 

No, no, not taken as a put down at all!! I have no loyalty to any of these companies!! I ended up loving my Epson - once I got a good one. I used it as a tv as well, it's easily bright enough to watch tv with the lights on. I watch "serious" (haha, what the hell does that mean) tv shows with the lights off and movies with the lights off but all other tv and sports with the lights on.


----------



## jedimastergrant

carp said:


> Thanks to Jonathan I just bought the Panasonic 8000. He sent me a link today for yet a lower sale price from B&H Photo for 1499. I was so close to buying one from B&H last night for 1699 and now that it's 1499 I had to do it.
> 
> I got pretty lucky, AT screen with awesome 4K material and new projector for under 2000!! I did buy a nice mount though, so 2100 total. Now... I hope it all gets here by the superbowl!!


Hey I called it just a few posts back! 

Mr. "I'm done for a long while". Ha ha!

What do I win for playing the Carps Upgraditis game!

But honestly I am so glad you did this. I know you care much more about your audio as most of us do. However your screen size was absolutely screaming for more brightness. I think I can say that now that you are upgrading. I can't wait to see how you like it. I really think it is going to knock your socks off. And that auto AR switching thing sounds like such a cool feature. I still have not had a chance to see it work but I hope my next PJ has it. 

2000 bucks for a new PJ and material is truly amazing.


----------



## carp

jedimastergrant said:


> Hey I called it just a few posts back!
> 
> Mr. "I'm done for a long while". Ha ha!
> 
> What do I win for playing the Carps Upgraditis game!
> 
> But honestly I am so glad you did this. I know you care much more about your audio as most of us do. However your screen size was absolutely screaming for more brightness. I think I can say that now that you are upgrading. I can't wait to see how you like it. I really think it is going to knock your socks off. And that auto AR switching thing sounds like such a cool feature. I still have not had a chance to see it work but I hope my next PJ has it.
> 
> 2000 bucks for a new PJ and material is truly amazing.



I'm not saying I'm done again, there is always something!! 

I already think the brightness level is very good with the 8350, but I'll always take more since I like the lights on for tv/sports. 


Ha, gotta love it, Steven just called to tell me the Panny is 1499. It's nice to know I'll never miss a good deal with all you guys around.  Hmmm on the flipside I had a lot more money years ago before I personally knew anyone on AVS...


----------



## carp

Superbowl party carnage. Upstairs TV vs. a friends 3.5 year old son armed with a golf ball.


----------



## d_c

That is not cool, unless he chipped it up there with a club. That would be impressive. I have a 35" tube TV to replace it - come get it!


----------



## raynist

carp said:


> Superbowl party carnage. Upstairs TV vs. a friends 3.5 year old son armed with a golf ball.


Wow that sucks!

Good excuse to get a bigger TV!


----------



## 7channelfreak

Did you tell the friend it was a $9,000 tv?


----------



## Scott Simonian

Hmmm.

I wouldn't have freaked out. I'd be like:


----------



## carp

I wasn't mad at all, I just felt bad for my buddy (who's kid did it) because I knew he'd replace it. Fortunately it's a bare bones LG (55 inch) and not a smart tv so it's not that expensive.


----------



## carp

I had to send back the Panasonic 8000 today to B&H Photo because it's convergence is pretty far off. They will send me another one. 

I watched Return of the King with some friends when I first got it and I thought it looked awesome, the black levels are a significant step up from the 8350. However, when I tried watching tv on it I felt like it was blurry compared to watching tv on the Epson. I didn't see any of this blurriness on the blu ray, not sure why that would be. 

Anyway, I went to my computer input and it's pretty clear something is wrong. The black text doesn't look black, yellow/green/blue colors around the edges of the black make it look blurry.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Hmph.

I was afraid this was going to happen. 

Good luck with the _next_ unit.

Damn, man! That's two display devices down.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Hmph.
> 
> I was afraid this was going to happen.
> 
> Good luck with the _next_ unit.
> 
> Damn, man! That's two display devices down.



Haha, yeah when I saw the convergence issue my first thought was Scott called it!!  I'm not worried yet though - this is the 6th 8350 I've had in my room so I've learned patience when it comes to projectors!!


----------



## Scott Simonian

Well I'm bummed out for you! After what you went with with your Epson I was hoping for the best with this 8000.

How long will it be gone for? Do you still have your 8350 as backup?


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Well I'm bummed out for you! After what you went with with your Epson I was hoping for the best with this 8000.
> 
> How long will it be gone for? Do you have a backup pj?


Thanks man - yeah you would think that I'd be due!

B&H told me it will take 2-3 days to get to them and then they will send me the replacement which will take 2-3 days. Oh yes, I have the 8350 running right now and that's what we used for the superbowl party. 








With the new AT screen plus the fact that the Panny needs more breathing room I had to move back my projector. I took the lazy way out, instead of repairing the ceiling I bought a damn big board to cover up the other holes and put the projector all the way to the back. I don't mind the look at all, I'm sure it would bother some though. 

I still absolutely love how the 8350 looks in dynamic mode with all the lights on. This is with lights on full right now from my main LP 9' 4" head to screen:










I am already positive that I will like the Panny a lot more for movies with the lights off, it looked better than the 8350 even with the convergence issue with a blu ray and all lights off. However I'm not so sure about tv watching with the lights on. Dynamic on the Panny looked like the colors were too saturated and in normal it wasn't as good as the 8350 on dynamic. We'll see.


----------



## Pain Infliction

Curious why you went with the Panny instead of another Epson?


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> Curious why you went with the Panny instead of another Epson?


Almost exclusively for the auto zoom/focus feature!! Plus I've seen it in multiple rooms and was very impressed. If the new Epson 3500 had it I might have gone with Epson again.


----------



## Pain Infliction

Ah yes, that is a nice feature to have. I just love Epson's short throw for a large picture and how they are light canons. I watch all my movies in the dark and my theater is black with the lowest light setting on my 5020. I have enjoyed it very much so far. I think that the 8000 is really close to the performance of the 5020 if I recall correctly.


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> Ah yes, that is a nice feature to have. I just love Epson's short throw for a large picture and how they are light canons. I watch all my movies in the dark and my theater is black with the lowest light setting on my 5020. I have enjoyed it very much so far. I think that the 8000 is really close to the performance of the 5020 if I recall correctly.


I think that's right, i think they are direct competitors.


----------



## dominguez1

Carp, just checked out your updated pics...those speakers are HUGE and MENACING! I love it!!! I can't believe how big they are! That's a huge screen, and your speakers make them look small! The pic with your kids really puts it in perspective. I really like you acoustic panels on the ceiling...nice added look and function. Awesome stuff.

Not sure if you've thought about this before or not, but I recently did it to my HT room and it made a BIG difference in the HT experience and picture/contrast.

I bought a pair of these:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Nance-Carpet-and-Rug-OurSpace-Black-5-ft-x-7-ft-Bright-Area-Rug-OS57BH/204463469

I had cream colored carpet too. I had a decorative brown rug before which didn't cover the width of the screen. After I added the black rugs, it really brought you into the movie experience more. I also have dark grey ceilings, so that also helps.

Just wanted to share...


----------



## carp

dominguez1 said:


> Carp, just checked out your updated pics...those speakers are HUGE and MENACING! I love it!!! I can't believe how big they are! That's a huge screen, and your speakers make them look small! The pic with your kids really puts it in perspective. I really like you acoustic panels on the ceiling...nice added look and function. Awesome stuff.
> 
> Not sure if you've thought about this before or not, but I recently did it to my HT room and it made a BIG difference in the HT experience and picture/contrast.
> 
> I bought a pair of these:
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Nance-Carpet-and-Rug-OurSpace-Black-5-ft-x-7-ft-Bright-Area-Rug-OS57BH/204463469
> 
> I had cream colored carpet too. I had a decorative brown rug before which didn't cover the width of the screen. After I added the black rugs, it really brought you into the movie experience more. I also have dark grey ceilings, so that also helps.
> 
> Just wanted to share...




Hey Dom - thanks!! 

Great idea... I hadn't really thought about that but I think I'll try out those rugs. They would be too wide to go 14 feet across since my speakers would be in the way but I could to 10 feet across and 7 feet front to back. The velvet on the ceiling and corner subs really helped so I know how big of a difference this kind of thing can make. 

Any pics of the room with the rugs?


----------



## dominguez1

Not the best pic, but you'll get the idea...


----------



## raynist

dominguez1 said:


> Not the best pic, but you'll get the idea...


I need to do this!


----------



## dominguez1

Before/After:


----------



## carp

I'm a bit slow, so I need some help understanding distance/delay settings since I recently added a nearfield sub right behind my seat.

I thought that the inuke delay settings and the minidsp delay settings would further delay the sound from getting to me the higher the value that I put into the settings. Then I realized that probably wouldn't be the case since my AVR distances don't work that way. The higher the distance setting (in feet and inches) on my Pioneer Elite settings the faster the sound gets to my ears from the speaker. In other words, if my mains say they are 10 feet away in my avr and the rear surrounds are at 13 feet then the sound is delayed roughly 3 ms longer in the mains than the rear surrounds. 

So, I put this to the test.

I took a frequency sweep with the subs current distance settings - front subs only no speakers with the minidsp set to 0 for delay. 

Next I changed the distance of my up front subs using the avr settings. The distance was set to 13 feet and I changed it to 4' 7". The reason I changed it to 4' 7" is because that is 8 feet 5 inches difference which is the max amount that my minidsp can change the distance (7.5 ms which is real close to 8 feet 5 inches).

Next I changed the distance in the minidsp from 0 to 7.5 ms (which = 8 feet 5 inches) and ran another frequency sweep.

I thought they would match up, they did not. 

So, I tried it the other way. I set my distance settings in my avr to 21' 5" inches (8 feet 5 inches different) and took a sweep front subs only no speakers with the minidsp set to 0 for delay. 

Next I changed the minidsp to 7.5 delay and ran the sweep again and it was an exact match.


What does this mean? Does my AVR distance settings work exactly the opposite from my minidsp? 

I can't wrap my brain around what is going on.

I need to figure this out before I can figure out how to perfectly integrate my nearfield sub since I only have 1 sub out from my AVR. I can tweak the distance differently since both signals (up front subs and near sub) are ran through different outputs of the minidsp and also the nearfield sub has the inuke dsp.

I'm starting to wonder if I have my nearfield sub wired out of phase because it measures the best (highest uniform gain with ALL subs running) when I have the distance settings just 2-3 ms delay on theminidsp for the nearfield compared to the up front subs. 

Remember, both sets of subs get the same delay from the AVR.

Anyone still reading this mess?


----------



## beastaudio

This is tough as you need to compensate against what the AVR is doing. I think you have it right so far, but Mtg90 definitely touches on this in his setup guide...have you looked through it yet? http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-subwoofers-mains-integration-how-thread.html


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> This is tough as you need to compensate against what the AVR is doing. I think you have it right so far, but Mtg90 definitely touches on this in his setup guide...have you looked through it yet? http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-subwoofers-mains-integration-how-thread.html


No, I haven't - thanks a lot I'll read through it. 

I got your PM, thanks. Yes, object #1 is to make sure the mains and subs are integrated which is why I figured if I changed the avr distance setting so that I could change the mini 2x4 distance the maximum amount (which would match exactly how it was before making any distance changes in either) then I could have a lower number in the distance setting of the mini 2x4 output that controls the near sub, and a lower number means more delay. 

The problem is it seems like the delay in the mini works the opposite of the AVR. In the AVR the higher the distance is the sooner the sound gets to you. I feel like the opposite is true in the minidsp distance setting since in my experiment raising the distance in the avr by the same amount that I raised the distance in the minidsp made it match exactly with how it was before changing either distance setting. 

Ok, my head hurts I'm off to read Matt's thread.


----------



## carp

What's even more confusing is that the Crowson seems to match up best with the same delay as the up front subs which makes no sense at all....


----------



## Pain Infliction

beastaudio said:


> This is tough as you need to compensate against what the AVR is doing. I think you have it right so far, but Mtg90 definitely touches on this in his setup guide...have you looked through it yet? http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-subwoofers-mains-integration-how-thread.html





carp said:


> No, I haven't - thanks a lot I'll read through it.
> 
> I got your PM, thanks. Yes, object #1 is to make sure the mains and subs are integrated which is why I figured if I changed the avr distance setting so that I could change the mini 2x4 distance the maximum amount (which would match exactly how it was before making any distance changes in either) then I could have a lower number in the distance setting of the mini 2x4 output that controls the near sub, and a lower number means more delay.
> 
> The problem is it seems like the delay in the mini works the opposite of the AVR. In the AVR the higher the distance is the sooner the sound gets to you. I feel like the opposite is true in the minidsp distance setting since in my experiment raising the distance in the avr by the same amount that I raised the distance in the minidsp made it match exactly with how it was before changing either distance setting.
> 
> Ok, my head hurts I'm off to read Matt's thread.


That thread is a fantastic thread! It should get you the results that you want. Have fun carp tinkering again with your system. I know that you love to.


----------



## Scott Simonian

My reply to you, Sheldon, in the other thread:



Scott Simonian said:


> Carp, there is a difference between distance delay numbers and actual ms delay numbers.
> 
> I see why you're getting a headache.
> 
> When you increase the distance of your front speakers on your AVR, it should and will increase the delay to the other speakers which are much closer. Those are the speakers that require extra delay. You are not adding delay to the fronts. Nor does increasing the distance setting. This is why you are seeing a 'backwards' reading. Each time you increase the distance of your fronts (in relation to the surrounds/closer speakers) it will add more delay to the surrounds.
> 
> The minidsp may (I dont own one) display its delay settings by an actual ms amount. So you would be increasing delay by moving away from 0ms.
> 
> So (on your AVR) if you have your surrounds at 0ft and enter 8.5ft for your main LCR then the AVR will add an amount of delay to the surrounds at 0ft.
> 
> No processor will speed up sound. Only delay.
> 
> Make sense now?


----------



## carp

Thanks Scott, yes this was driving me nuts!! 

I guess what really confused me was that the delay settings on the minidsp and inuke all have distance settings too, so I assumed it worked the same as the distance settings in the avr. 

I think I got it now. The distance changes in the AVR are only relative to the other speaker distance settings while the delay in the mini and inuke actually delay the sound by however many ms you enter.

So, here is my issue. 

I only have one sub out from my avr. When I was getting the nearfield sub dialed in I was experimenting with all kinds of delay settings for it. The best (subs summing up over the widest frequency range) was having a delay on the near field sub of 2-3 ms. All the subs also blend with the speakers the best like this. 

That really bugged me since a ms roughly = 1 foot and my nearfield sub is obviously way closer than that compared to my up front subs. 

I know the inuke dsp itself can add some delay but I don't think it would be that much....

Even more confusing is that the Crowson seems the most dialed in when it is at 0 ms delay!!! 

I don't get it...


----------



## Archaea

Scott, Are you sure on that?


I had an old Onkyo 805. It was a long lived AVR and while it was my primary AVR I began to notice it wasn't synching audio and video very well on my newer displays -- there was no HDMI lip synch -- so if you display had a faster refresh rating than 'x' the lip sync on DVDs would be off. Not that big a problem on my displays until I upgraded to a Panasonic projector with 14ms lag (advertised as a gaming projector). Then all the sudden my lip synch was off pretty bad. Onkyo's processing wasn't fast enough to keep up with that video refresh. This became a pretty common problem. The solution, or at least bandaid on the forum was to maximize the speaker distance on all channels. That allowed the minimum delay to every channel. You'd then make your changes to all channels by subtracting distance off the max distance. I tried it and sure enough it worked for me. That might have been that particular model --- but I certainly recall that scenario -- as it was a work around used by a lot of people with that AVR as they kept it beyond its prime.


Thus my understanding was, as you increase speaker distance in the AVR you lessen audio delay.

@carp,


Your omnimic has 'impulse' which might be helpful in getting to the bottom of this.


----------



## Scott Simonian

You saw moving to the Panny 8000 that the audio was 'slower', yes? It is possible that you were processing the signal and that would have added some overall delay to the audio.

But yes, I am sure. Adding distance will delay the closer speakers in a surround sound system. It's obvious. It wouldn't make any sense to delay a speaker that is farther away than another. 

Honestly I can not speak of your work around. I am trying not to make this subject seem any more confusing for Sheldon.  He said things seemed "backwards" and I wanted to explain why it seemed that way.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Thanks Scott, yes this was driving me nuts!!
> 
> I guess what really confused me was that the delay settings on the minidsp and inuke all have distance settings too, so I assumed it worked the same as the distance settings in the avr.
> 
> I think I got it now. The distance changes in the AVR are only relative to the other speaker distance settings while the delay in the mini and inuke actually delay the sound by however many ms you enter.
> 
> So, here is my issue.
> 
> I only have one sub out from my avr. When I was getting the nearfield sub dialed in I was experimenting with all kinds of delay settings for it. The best (subs summing up over the widest frequency range) was having a delay on the near field sub of 2-3 ms. All the subs also blend with the speakers the best like this.
> 
> That really bugged me since a ms roughly = 1 foot and my nearfield sub is obviously way closer than that compared to my up front subs.
> 
> I know the inuke dsp itself can add some delay but I don't think it would be that much....
> 
> Even more confusing is that the Crowson seems the most dialed in when it is at 0 ms delay!!!
> 
> I don't get it...


My 7702 also finds the nearfield to be at around 2.5ft away when running audyssey sweeps. I haven't yet messed with trying to move it up any more, to say 1ft, but I will say any further away is certainly detrimental....


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> My 7702 also finds the nearfield to be at around 2.5ft away when running audyssey sweeps. I haven't yet messed with trying to move it up any more, to say 1ft, but I will say any further away is certainly detrimental....



Yes, but you have 2 sub outs so that makes sense. I only have one sub out from my avr so the nearfield sub is already set to a distance of 13 feet, meaning the sound from it would get to me before the sound from my up front subs. 

That's why I'm confused that my minidsp delay numbers that optimize the summation of all the subs is only 2-3 ms (mini numbers delay the audio as the numbers get bigger, the opposite of the way the avr handles it - thanks again Scott ). 

Could be the delay in the inuke dsp, but I doubt it's near that much, I think I remember Desertdome saying the delay was close to 1 ms for the inuke dsp. 

I've been thinking my nearfield sub is wired out of phase, it's the only thing that makes sense to me. 

But then there's the Crowson which seems perfectly dialed in with 0 ms on the minidsp (the Crowson also is set to 13 feet distance in the avr so the feel should get to me too soon but it doesn't ). Who knows with that though, maybe my chair is putting in it's own delay, haha, who knows....

I guess I should just leave well enough alone - just like you said Brandon - because my near sub, front subs, and mains all sum together very well with the current settings and the Crowson feels right too. I need to just chill and not worry about it.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Yes, but you have 2 sub outs so that makes sense. I only have one sub out from my avr so the nearfield sub is already set to a distance of 13 feet, meaning the sound from it would get to me before the sound from my up front subs.
> 
> That's why I'm confused that my minidsp delay numbers that optimize the summation of all the subs is only 2-3 ms (mini numbers delay the audio as the numbers get bigger, the opposite of the way the avr handles it - thanks again Scott ).
> 
> Could be the delay in the inuke dsp, but I doubt it's near that much, I think I remember Desertdome saying the delay was close to 1 ms for the inuke dsp.
> 
> I've been thinking my nearfield sub is wired out of phase, it's the only thing that makes sense to me.
> 
> But then there's the Crowson which seems perfectly dialed in with 0 ms on the minidsp (the Crowson also is set to 13 feet distance in the avr so the feel should get to me too soon but it doesn't ). Who knows with that though, maybe my chair is putting in it's own delay, haha, who knows....
> 
> I guess I should just leave well enough alone - just like you said Brandon - because my near sub, front subs, and mains all sum together very well with the current settings and the Crowson feels right too. I need to just chill and not worry about it.



The distance with your standard settings could mean that the nearfield/crowson is a full cycle past the main subs and LCR's for the area they perform. Not a huge issue if it works well in your room, but the impulse response might show that. vs a Freq response that won't. Just a guess tho really.


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> The distance with your standard settings could mean that the nearfield/crowson is a full cycle past the main subs and LCR's for the area they perform. Not a huge issue if it works well in your room, but the impulse response might show that. vs a Freq response that won't. Just a guess tho really.


I'm not sure how to use the impulse response, it always looks the same to me. I guess I should break down and actually read the omnimic manual.


----------



## Archaea

You can figure out how impulse works on the omnimic just by playing with it. Artificially add delay to one channel (either left or right) to compare to how your normally have it --- and watch how the BIG HUGE single impulse ^ becomes two points ^ ^ . You want the measured impulse response to be a single ^ because that means the sound waves are all hitting you at the same time.


Call me if that doesn't make sense.


----------



## Archaea

Scott Simonian said:


> You saw moving to the Panny 8000 that the audio was 'slower', yes? It is possible that you were processing the signal and that would have added some overall delay to the audio.
> 
> But yes, I am sure. Adding distance will delay the closer speakers in a surround sound system. It's obvious. It wouldn't make any sense to delay a speaker that is farther away than another.
> 
> Honestly I can not speak of your work around. I am trying not to make this subject seem any more confusing for Sheldon.  He said things seemed "backwards" and I wanted to explain why it seemed that way.



Older Panasonic actually either the PTL-500U or the AX200U - can't remember now -- but this is years back.


You answer doesn't make sense to me.  So it can't be that obvious  Or i'm just thick.


It makes more sense to me --- that if you ADD distance --- say make the rear left speaker distance 25 feet instead of 12 feet the AVR has to account for that increased distance and get the audio out of that rear left speaker quicker so that it can arrive in time to match with the other closer speakers. So by increasing distance, your are decreasing intentioned audio delay from that single channel. There is a max distance because delay can only be reduced so much. That I can wrap my head around. 

Sorry Sheldon. Ignore me if I've got it all mixed up!  I just know without any doubt that worked on that old Onkyo 805, and a lot of people used that trick on these forums -- that is - setting the max speaker distance to 25' to reduce audio delay to match fast video output. Perhaps the new stuff is all different? That 805 is an old dog now.


----------



## carp

Since I'm one of the hosts for the upcoming KC HT Crawl I got motivated to buy an Inuke 6000 dsp to power my mains instead of my current 3000 dsp. 

I had tried a 6000 last summer but it caused the 215's to hum an hiss pretty loudly so I was worried the same thing would happen. Fortunately that didn't happen. I get a little hiss, but it's the exact same amount as I get with the 3000. With the radio shack meter pushed up all the way to the CD I get 62 db's of hiss. I can just hear if from the main LP but it's not enough to really bother me too much.

The problem was when I turned off the system last night I got a horrible sound from the speakers. Not just a thump but a shrieking sound like lightning was coming through them. Not fun. 

Any ideas how to make that never happen again? The 6000 is plugged in to the same outlet (connected to my relay) that my 3000 was and the 3000 causes no bad sounds a all when I turn off the system.


----------



## carp

Another issue is I have been reading lately that many people say the inukes are horrible for powering speakers. They say the highs are harsh/distorted/whatever and don't sound good. Now, when we did our blind amp comparison with immediate switching I couldn't tell but I am open to the fact that I could have been wrong and I don't want to do this upcoming demo with an amp that won't make my speakers sound their best. 

I talked to Jeff from JTR at the Iowa Crawl this last weekend and he agrees that I shouldn't be using an inuke. I told him that I absolutely love the dsp on the inuke and I don't want to lose that. I DON'T like running the 215's flat, I love having the ability to boost the bass how I like it and do it on the fly from my main listening position using my laptop (laptop is remote desktop controlling my PC in the next room which is what the inuke is connected to through usb). 

So I told Jeff I want an amp that can put out 2000 watts per channel but also have dsp similar to the inuke and here is what he suggested:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crown-I-T40...Touring-Power-Pro-Amplifier-Amp-/360494842380

Do any of you guys have experience with this amp? Can the dsp truly make changes on the fly without having to power cycle? 

Do all of you agree that using the inuke is a bad idea? If so it's too bad, I absolutely love the dsp on it. 

Of course I could use a non dsp amp with a minidsp but I really like the inuke dsp a lot more than the minidsp for quickly setting house curves on the fly while listening to music. The dynamic EQ function is awesome. 

My plan this week is to hook up my CV 5000 to the 215's again and see if I think there is a difference with the highs compared to the inuke. 

If I'm going to use a non dsp amp with a minidsp that makes me think again about the d-sonic amps. 

Hmmm what to do, what to do.....


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Another issue is I have been reading lately that many people say the inukes are horrible for powering speakers. They say the highs are harsh/distorted/whatever and don't sound good. Now, when we did our blind amp comparison with immediate switching I couldn't tell but I am open to the fact that I could have been wrong and I don't want to do this upcoming demo with an amp that won't make my speakers sound their best.
> 
> I talked to Jeff from JTR at the Iowa Crawl this last weekend and he agrees that I shouldn't be using an inuke. I told him that I absolutely love the dsp on the inuke and I don't want to lose that. I DON'T like running the 215's flat, I love having the ability to boost the bass how I like it and do it on the fly from my main listening position using my laptop (laptop is remote desktop controlling my PC in the next room which is what the inuke is connected to through usb).
> 
> So I told Jeff I want an amp that can put out 2000 watts per channel but also have dsp similar to the inuke and here is what he suggested:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crown-I-T40...Touring-Power-Pro-Amplifier-Amp-/360494842380
> 
> Do any of you guys have experience with this amp? Can the dsp truly make changes on the fly without having to power cycle?
> 
> Do all of you agree that using the inuke is a bad idea? If so it's too bad, I absolutely love the dsp on it.
> 
> Of course I could use a non dsp amp with a minidsp but I really like the inuke dsp a lot more than the minidsp for quickly setting house curves on the fly while listening to music. The dynamic EQ function is awesome.
> 
> My plan this week is to hook up my CV 5000 to the 215's again and see if I think there is a difference with the highs compared to the inuke.
> 
> If I'm going to use a non dsp amp with a minidsp that makes me think again about the d-sonic amps.
> 
> Hmmm what to do, what to do.....



I freakin love my dsonic  BUT, that crown Itech line is what the JBL m2's are paired with, and I watched Mark do some of the DSP loading and such at the last g2g at Andrew's. It is a pretty slick interface. I think after the learning curve, you will probably prefer it even more than the inuke DSP.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Good lord! Those things are expensive!


----------



## carp

Scott and Brandon, do you guys agree that the inukes are a bad idea for speaker use? 

I'd love to not have to dump 1500 on an amp anytime soon...


----------



## Scott Simonian

I really can't say. I used mine for midbass and about to try it with subwoofers nearfield. Some people say they are awful for 'full range' others say it's fine. *shrug*

EP4000 doesn't cost that much. Buy two and bridge each one on your 215's.

It sucks but amps get expensive, fast. Most of the affordable and 'good for full range' amps are going to be AB/H class amps. There are nice class D amps but they are expensive.

What are you really trying to accomplish? Just want more power?

You know... why not just get a single DCX now and have it so you can get all this DSP stuff taken care of and not have to resort to being limited in selection to amps that have it built in? A single one would cover you for good, I'd bet.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> I really can't say. I used mine for midbass and about to try it with subwoofers nearfield. Some people say they are awful for 'full range' others say it's fine. *shrug*
> 
> EP4000 doesn't cost that much. Buy two and bridge each one on your 215's.
> 
> It sucks but amps get expensive, fast. Most of the affordable and 'good for full range' amps are going to be AB/H class amps. There are nice class D amps but they are expensive.
> 
> What are you really trying to accomplish? Just want more power?
> 
> You know... why not just get a single DCX now and have it so you can get all this DSP stuff taken care of and not have to resort to being limited in selection to amps that have it built in? A single one would cover you for good, I'd bet.


I'm trying to feed each speaker 2000 watts which the inuke 6000 does. However I also absolutely love the dsp on the inuke and I use it all the time when listening to music and I love how it changes on the fly. IMO there is no such thing as the correct setting for the bass. It depends on the song and even more importantly my mood. 

So, I was bummed to hear that many think the inuke is crap for highs so I'm looking for an alternative that will give me tons of power but also a great on the fly dsp. I use my laptop which controls my pc in the next room through remote desktop and the inuke is plugged into that pc. 

The DCX idea is good but I'm spoiled by the changing on the fly thing.

Tomorrow I plan to hook up my CV 5000 and see if I can tell a difference with the highs.


----------



## Scott Simonian

The DCX allows you to change on the fly, bro. 

If you want 2,000w then the inukes aren't going to give you that. The 6000 does ~1.3-1.6kw at best.

Get more CV5000's or invest in one of the Sanway amps. Or other fairly expensive amps. Not much does 2kw per channel for cheap.



Lol and why do you need to send 2kw to those things anyway?  I guess for moar bass!


----------



## desertdome

I wouldn't get amps with DSP. I agree with Scott that separate DSP is a better way to go.

I'll bring my Cherry amps down if you want and you can listen to them on your speakers at the Crawl. Having amps flat to 0Hz is the way to go.

I got rid of my DCX2496 back in about 2010 (maybe earlier). Last I heard Ricci owned it. I would never go back to it, but you can make changes on the fly.


----------



## Scott Simonian

desertdome said:


> I wouldn't get amps with DSP. I agree with Scott that separate DSP is a better way to go.
> 
> I'll bring my Cherry amps down if you want and you can listen to them on your speakers at the Crawl. Having amps flat to 0Hz is the way to go.
> 
> I got rid of my DCX2496 back in about 2010 (maybe earlier). Last I heard Ricci owned it. I would never go back to it, but you can make changes on the fly.


That's cuz you're brainwashed by _really_ into JRiver and don't need a DCX anymore. 


What is a Cherry amp?


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> The DCX allows you to change on the fly, bro.
> 
> If you want 2,000w then the inukes aren't going to give you that. The 6000 does ~1.3-1.6kw at best.
> 
> Get more CV5000's or invest in one of the Sanway amps. Or other fairly expensive amps. Not much does 2kw per channel for cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol and why do you need to send 2kw to those things anyway?  I guess for moar bass!


Hahaha, I glanced over at your avatar after reading your question. You of all people understand, haha. 

Oh really? I thought the DCX was just hardware/component only I didn't know it had software you could tweak with a laptop. 

Hmmm another CV is a good idea. Also I guess I could get another 6000 and run 4 subs on each 6000 and use the CV I have on the mains and use my minidsp 2x4 for dsp. 

I'll be very curious how the CV does tomorrow. I hooked it up once to my mains but the horrible hum/buzz was my only impression. I think it was because my laundry room next door looks like spaghetti on the floor and I've got speaker wires too close to power cords.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Hahah! Well, yeah. 

Dude, the DCX has controls and a screen on the front.




















There is software for it though but I don't bother. Don't want to have to rely on a computer to do something I can just do on my own.











Don't let Jonathan see any of this. He'll barf. 


Sorry. Can't help you out with the buzz/hum. Could be anything.


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> I wouldn't get amps with DSP. I agree with Scott that separate DSP is a better way to go.
> 
> I'll bring my Cherry amps down if you want and you can listen to them on your speakers at the Crawl. Having amps flat to 0Hz is the way to go.
> 
> I got rid of my DCX2496 back in about 2010 (maybe earlier). Last I heard Ricci owned it. I would never go back to it, but you can make changes on the fly.


Thanks Michael for the offer, I might - it depends on what happens when I use the CV amp. I don't need flat to 0hz though since the 215's are tuned to 17 ish... not real sure actually, Jeff told me Saturday to put the HPF at 15hz and I'd be good.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Flat to 0hz is great for the Crowsons though.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Flat to 0hz is great for the Crowsons though.


Woah, good point!!


----------



## beastaudio

Scott Simonian said:


> I really can't say. I used mine for midbass and about to try it with subwoofers nearfield. Some people say they are awful for 'full range' others say it's fine. *shrug*
> 
> EP4000 doesn't cost that much. Buy two and bridge each one on your 215's.
> 
> It sucks but amps get expensive, fast. Most of the affordable and 'good for full range' amps are going to be AB/H class amps. There are nice class D amps but they are expensive.
> 
> What are you really trying to accomplish? Just want more power?
> 
> You know... why not just get a single DCX now and have it so you can get all this DSP stuff taken care of and not have to resort to being limited in selection to amps that have it built in? A single one would cover you for good, I'd bet.


So, I have a DCX if you want to play around with it, and, why not get you a really nice Crest pro-lite 7.5 that can send your mains around 2400 watts each, and cruise along just fine. We used the peavey (basically same amp) at Rilla's on the pair of 215's (IIRC) and they did JUST fine 

I am also biased a little, whereas I just don't trust Behringer all that much. You don't see the pros using Berry amps, and their overinflated numbers just annoy me. I even have an epx4000, which served me well for quite some time, but I have since moved on to crown, crest, etc.


----------



## desertdome

Lukeamdman had a pair of Crest CC4000 amps that just sold about a week or two ago. He could have brought them to the Crawl. David is using a CC4000 amp in his theater for L/R. I believe his center channel is a CC2800 bridged. You could get a couple of the CC2800's.


----------



## lukeamdman

I've had a DCX2496 sitting on a shelf for a few years...want to borrow it?


----------



## carp

lukeamdman said:


> I've had a DCX2496 sitting on a shelf for a few years...want to borrow it?


Thanks for the offer but I'm having to leave well enough alone for the time being when it comes to amps.

A few days ago my lamp light indicator came on solid on my Epson 8350. I figured no big deal since the picture didn't seem to be affected. However, yesterday the image started to become very dim very fast. 

Well, I figured I don't want to invest in another bulb so I went out today and bought an Epson 3500. I saw the Epson 5300 in the store and the blacks are nice but when i turned up the lights a bit it didn't seem to have a ton of brightness. 

My impressions of the 3500 so far are good. Basically it puts up just as bright of an image on natural as the 8350 does on dynamic but the colors look better. 

No dust blobs - so nice!!! 

I think I'm going to take it back for another one though, like many projectors you can't get the entire screen perfectly focused at the same time. You can't tell on movies/tv but with computer text you can see it. 

So, anyway, I went "squirrel" again  and so for the time being the inuke's stay where they are.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Wait....


I thought you had just got the Panny 8000. Did you end up giving up on it since it had issues?


----------



## desertdome

I've never figured out the appeal of LCD. I love the sharpness of DLP.



Scott Simonian said:


> Wait....
> I thought you had just got the Panny 8000. Did you end up giving up on it since it had issues?


That was so last month.


----------



## Scott Simonian

I see... 

Yeah, DLP is cool but there aren't any good midrange DLP's on the market that have all the right features and/or black levels. Agreed that the single chip ones are very sharp though. Wish I could have it all!


----------



## carp

Scott - I just never really liked how the 8000 looked for tv/sports. It's brightness seemed to be false, like it was an exaggeration of color saturation instead of really being bright. 

I was bummed, I LOVE the auto zoom feature so it took a few days for me to admit to myself that I didn't like it. 

So, I decided to just go with the 8350 but then the bulb started dying... and we can't have that!!!


----------



## Scott Simonian

Did properly calibrate the Panny? Some of the brighter modes look awful as far as color reproduction. 

Oh well... too late. 

Bright and fully loaded with great PQ is tough in the ~$2000 budget range.


----------



## carp

No, I didn't. I messed with all the settings for hours on end. I liked how it looked with the lights off for movies but we watch a ton of tv/sports with the lights on and the Epson was far better for that so that's what tipped the scales. I know that seems silly since most guys use projectors for movies only with the lights off, but lights on is a bit deal for me. The 3500 looks better than the 8350 both ways. Blacks are a bit better too, but not as good as the 8000.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> No, I didn't. I messed with all the settings for hours on end. I liked how it looked with the lights off for movies but we watch a ton of tv/sports with the lights on and the Epson was far better for that so that's what tipped the scales. I know that seems silly since most guys use projectors for movies only with the lights off, but lights on is a bit deal for me. The 3500 looks better than the 8350 both ways. Blacks are a bit better too, but not as good as the 8000.


Oh for sure! I knew that is the way you used yours (lots of sports) so it's hard to recommend much else.

Only thing I can think of is to have a very bright, good for casual sports viewing projector and a nice, dark room projector for movies. It's cost prohibitive, sure but you don't have to buy them at the same time either.


----------



## carp

You know in all the houses I've been in I've yet to see the dual setup - if I had an extra room and the money I'd do it!


----------



## Archaea

Scott Simonian said:


> Hahah! Well, yeah.
> 
> Dude, the DCX has controls and a screen on the front.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is software for it though but I don't bother. Don't want to have to rely on a computer to do something I can just do on my own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let Jonathan see any of this. He'll barf.
> 
> 
> Sorry. Can't help you out with the buzz/hum. Could be anything.


 
The 80's called...
They want their DSP back.






Does that software even run on anything newer than Windows 3.11?


----------



## Archaea

Scott Simonian said:


> The DCX allows you to change on the fly, bro.
> 
> If you want 2,000w then the inukes aren't going to give you that. The 6000 does ~1.3-1.6kw at best.
> 
> Get more CV5000's or invest in one of the Sanway amps. Or other fairly expensive amps. Not much does 2kw per channel for cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol and why do you need to send 2kw to those things anyway?  I guess for moar bass!


 
Sheldon,


Q. Does your laptop have a serial port? 
A. No.


Scott,


Q. How are you going to run that DCX-2496 when your Toshiba laptop dies?


----------



## d_c

Archaea said:


> Scott,
> 
> 
> How are you going to run that DCX-2496 when your Toshiba laptop dies?


Archaea, be nice or Scott is going to go after you with his butterfly knife


----------



## Archaea

d_c said:


> Archaea, be nice or Scott is going to go after you with his butterfly knife


No, serious question here...


I'm just asking Scott, can he use a single sided floppy disk to hold the DSP save file? Or does it need a double sided floppy disk?


----------



## Scott Simonian

Lmao!!! 




Archaea said:


> No, serious question here...
> 
> 
> I'm just asking Scott, can he use a single sided floppy disk to hold the DSP save file? Or does it need a double sided floppy disk?


Tape drive. Takes all night to backup.


----------



## cvinfig

Are we allowed to cuss on this forum? I don't post here enough to know. I ask because the last five posts are ****ing hilarious!


----------



## desertdome

Archaea said:


> Q. Does your laptop have a serial port?
> A. No.


Nebrunner doesn't have a serial port and updates his DCX2496 with a computer just fine.  
Ever hear of a USB to serial cable?


----------



## carp

Hahahaha, good ****.


----------



## Scott Simonian

desertdome said:


> Nebrunner doesn't have a serial port and updates his DCX2496 with a computer just fine.
> Ever hear of a USB to serial cable?


I don't think he will be interested unless it comes with WiFi and has a Facebook app.


----------



## carp

Ok, just watched an episode (the last one actually) of Sherlock Holmes on Netflix. I watched a lot of episodes with the 8350 and at least 2 with the Panny 8000. I like the 3500 significantly better than both. I used "natural" and all levels have 3 options - High, Medium, and Eco. I used Eco and it looks damn good. 

Blacks are way better than the 8350 and as good as the 8000. I'm sure on paper the 8000 has better blacks and also in bat caves but since I have light carpet and ceiling I think the blacks on the 3500 are as good as I'm going to see in this room no matter how high end the projector is. 

Now... if I can just find one that can completely focus on the entire screen at once...


----------



## Scott Simonian

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...read-once-you-go-black-you-never-go-back.html

And a JVC.

You know you wanna.


----------



## cvinfig

I was going to say, based on my Epson 6010, I thought you might have good results using Eco mode with the lights down for movies and turning that off when watching sports with more lighting and for 3D movies. I've never hooked up a computer so can't comment on focus issues...


----------



## carp

Someday....


----------



## Scott Simonian

_"It's the real deal!"_


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Thanks for the offer but I'm having to leave well enough alone for the time being when it comes to amps.
> 
> A few days ago my lamp light indicator came on solid on my Epson 8350. I figured no big deal since the picture didn't seem to be affected. However, yesterday the image started to become very dim very fast.
> 
> Well, I figured I don't want to invest in another bulb so I went out today and bought an Epson 3500. I saw the Epson 5300 in the store and the blacks are nice but when i turned up the lights a bit it didn't seem to have a ton of brightness.
> 
> My impressions of the 3500 so far are good. Basically it puts up just as bright of an image on natural as the 8350 does on dynamic but the colors look better.
> 
> No dust blobs - so nice!!!
> 
> I think I'm going to take it back for another one though, like many projectors you can't get the entire screen perfectly focused at the same time. You can't tell on movies/tv but with computer text you can see it.
> 
> So, anyway, I went "squirrel" again  and so for the time being the inuke's stay where they are.


AVS is doing a VERY nice sale on 4910's right now  You want constant sharpness, do not pass go, go straight to JVC. 



Archaea said:


> No, serious question here...
> 
> 
> I'm just asking Scott, can he use a single sided floppy disk to hold the DSP save file? Or does it need a double sided floppy disk?


The DCX is a SAINT (like Dorothy Mantooth). Button pushers unite and smite this blasphemy!


----------



## Archaea

Does that 4910 have auto zoom and focus like the panny? If so, very nice. 
Couldn't see that info easily in the product specs.
4k eshift is very nice. I've seen it @craig johns which was the best looking projector image I've seen. It was too cost prohibitive at the time.


----------



## beastaudio

Archaea said:


> Does that 4910 have auto zoom and focus like the panny? If so, very nice.
> Couldn't see that info easily in the product specs.
> 4k eshift is very nice. I've seen it @craig johns which was the best looking projector image I've seen. It was too cost prohibitive at the time.


Yep it does. The eshift on this model is killer too. You look at the msrp, then chop that number in half and you can get it. Basically if you are shopping anywhere around the $2k-$3k price range, it is near impossible to beat. The Sony 55ES is likely a better candidate actually for Sheldon, as it has a little more brightness to it, but for movies and lights out, the 4910 is just absolutely UNREAL.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Hmmm.... might have to make room for that PJ _this_ year. 

Looks like an identical buy of the X500 for half the price. Waaahhhh?!


----------



## beastaudio

Yessir buddy


----------



## Archaea

how'd you find out about the JVC sale? I don't see a thread?


----------



## Scott Simonian

Archaea said:


> how'd you find out about the JVC sale? I don't see a thread?


S**t man, I just found out too. Beast just posted about it and that's how I found out. 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...la-x500r-rs49u-rs4910u-owners-thread-124.html


Contact either @Craig Peer or @AV Science Sales 5 for more info about it.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Oh ... sorry, Sheldon.

Umm.... go buy a Sony.


----------



## beastaudio

Archaea said:


> how'd you find out about the JVC sale? I don't see a thread?





Scott Simonian said:


> S**t man, I just found out too. Beast just posted about it and that's how I found out.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...la-x500r-rs49u-rs4910u-owners-thread-124.html
> 
> 
> Contact either @Craig Peer or @AV Science Sales 5 for more info about it.


Yep, they post every once in a while when they get some in to inform folks. Just had a fresh batch come in apparently, so there you go fellas


----------



## Archaea

Deal was only through the end of March. He specifically said don't call him on April 1st or after.

Good

I didn't have money for that anyway.


----------



## lbrown105

Guys, I haven't done much research on the projector front but thinking about spending between $2-3k sometime this year. I currently have the 8350 and like Sheldon I do like the brightness but also looking for overall better performance for movies too. Gaming is not a priority but TV and movies are. I do not want to have the lights all the way down during TV (packer games!!!!). Also don't want anything louder than my 8350 since that is my noise floor in the theater.

1. movies (blacks, sharpness)
2. TV (brightness, sharpness)
3. Quiet

what should I consider?


----------



## Scott Simonian

Sony HW40ES would suit your needs. Next up would be the Epson 5030ub. Both are similarly capable, similar sharpness and brightness. The Sony is slightly better (minimal) but it is quieter than the 5030ub.

Sony: slightly quieter, build quality
Epson: slightly deeper blacks* (using auto iris), feature rich


I've looked at these two extensively over the past year. These really are the major differences if trying to choose between the two. The differences are very minimal though. 

However I'd go with the Sony first but would not be a bad choice/compromise to get the Epson.


----------



## carp

I'm loving the 3500 more and more. Interstellar on "natural" and eco looked incredible tonight even on the 158" screen - however the changing aspect ratio thing was horrible....

Back to tv now with the lights on and back to 125 inch (I think that's the size) for 16:9 and eco natural still looks great. Brighter on this setting than dynamic/normal lamp on the 8350 but with better colors.


----------



## beastaudio

lbrown105 said:


> Guys, I haven't done much research on the projector front but thinking about spending between $2-3k sometime this year. I currently have the 8350 and like Sheldon I do like the brightness but also looking for overall better performance for movies too. Gaming is not a priority but TV and movies are. I do not want to have the lights all the way down during TV (packer games!!!!). Also don't want anything louder than my 8350 since that is my noise floor in the theater.
> 
> 1. movies (blacks, sharpness)
> 2. TV (brightness, sharpness)
> 3. Quiet
> 
> what should I consider?


Scott suggests some good ones, still keep an eye out for a used sony 55es that would bump the performance to the next level as well. Slightly brighter than the JVC 4910, but not quite as sharp or as good blacks. The 4910's when they hit the sale shelf here at AVS is also within your price range. If movies with lights off and TV with lights at "Medium" level are your priorities, it can't be beat....


----------



## lbrown105

Guys, thanks for all the feedback. Makes my research faster since I know where to start. Good to have friends on AVS


----------



## carp

lbrown105 said:


> Guys, thanks for all the feedback. Makes my research faster since I know where to start. Good to have friends on AVS


Yep - I always ask for advice on a thread with all the guys I know first, you get much better feedback that way than if you went to the projector threads.


----------



## carp

Just bought a pair of these. 




Since I discovered I prefer NOT having absorption panels at the first reflections it's been bugging me that on the left wall I have a built in book case (good diffusor) and on the right wall just dry wall. 

I talked to Glenn at GIK and Chuck (room link below) who uses diffusion at the primary reflection points and really likes it and figured it was worth a try. Glenn told me it depends on the room and personal taste but thought it was worth checking out for sure. 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...08517-new-house-new-theater.html#post24134933


----------



## Scott Simonian

Nice. I have eight of the Gridfusors from GIK about to install.

So yes.... you don't really want to absorb the "first reflection". It doesn't need to be absorbed. What _does_ need to be absorbed is the contra-lateral reflection. What this is is the opposite side reflection from one side or another.

For example: left front speaker. Get a mirror. Find the spot on the right side wall where you see the left front speaker. This is the contra-lateral reflection. Repeat for the right front speaker on the left side wall.

These contra-lateral reflections screw up imaging and stereo separation. However a "first reflection" from a left front speaker next to it on the left wall will not screw up imaging and if anything will widen the soundstage. It's best to leave this spot untreated or use diffusion as Sheldon is going to do. Nice choice!


----------



## lbrown105

SHeldon, the diffusors should be nice on the side walls. I don't have any professional diffusors on side walls but I do want to try it. I think the absorption on the ceiling is good the way you have it.

On another note I have signed up for TIDAL music service. Listened to a while last night on headphones and will try out on the system later today. Quality seemed good on the headphones and better than my Itunes. The only thing I didn't figure out is how to add videos to your playlist. Also seems like a lot of music but not many music videos. Try searching more today.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Nice. I have eight of the Gridfusors from GIK about to install.
> 
> So yes.... you don't really want to absorb the "first reflection". It doesn't need to be absorbed. What _does_ need to be absorbed is the contra-lateral reflection. What this is is the opposite side reflection from one side or another.
> 
> For example: left front speaker. Get a mirror. Find the spot on the right side wall where you see the left front speaker. This is the contra-lateral reflection. Repeat for the right front speaker on the left side wall.
> 
> These contra-lateral reflections screw up imaging and stereo separation. However a "first reflection" from a left front speaker next to it on the left wall will not screw up imaging and if anything will widen the soundstage. It's best to leave this spot untreated or use diffusion as Sheldon is going to do. Nice choice!



Thanks Scott. Yep, I kept my contra-lateral reflection absorption panels up. I hadn't read anything about it but just figured it made sense that you wouldn't want the reflection from the opposite speaker. 

I'm wondering if I would like drywall on both sides the best and maybe I should have just put a board inside each 242 panel but then I would always wonder if I would have liked duffusion better so I'll try both.


----------



## carp

lbrown105 said:


> SHeldon, the diffusors should be nice on the side walls. I don't have any professional diffusors on side walls but I do want to try it. I think the absorption on the ceiling is good the way you have it.
> 
> On another note I have signed up for TIDAL music service. Listened to a while last night on headphones and will try out on the system later today. Quality seemed good on the headphones and better than my Itunes. The only thing I didn't figure out is how to add videos to your playlist. Also seems like a lot of music but not many music videos. Try searching more today.



I like the absorption on the ceiling too. I think it's because the reflection is much later which screws up the sound. 

Yeah, Tidal doesn't have near as many songs or videos as Google Play but they seem to be getting more artists all the time.


----------



## carp

One other thing guys. I swear the dialog from my center is better with the first reflection panels up. Those panels catch both my L and R first reflection and the the center too at the main LP. 

This makes sense to me too because once again the reflections would get to me much later since the center is a lot further from the walls. I'm hoping that the diffusion helps with center channel speech intelligibility too so I can kill two birds.


----------



## nvidio

Here are some interesting links re treating early reflections with diffusion.


http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/studio_design


http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/20...onse-psychoacoustic-and-subjective-importance


https://www.gearslutz.com/board/bas...965108-diffusors-early-reflection-points.html


P.S. - Here is the one I was looking for:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/bas...diy-bass-traps-diy-made-up-slat-diffuser.html


----------



## carp

Rapidly switching gears here as I often do:

It's been bugging me lately that I don't get more tactile feel on my second row riser. I get some - more than the front row (except for the sweet spot seat with nearfield and Crowson) but it's not a ton. I have little isolators under the riser but I think I might have built the riser to solidly. 

Any suggestions to isolate the riser more from the floor and get more shake?


----------



## d_c

Is there a vent in it and is it filled with insulation?


----------



## carp

I'm wondering if the top is too solid, it's 3/4" mdf that I had left over from what is used to use as a ping pong table laid on top of a pool table.


----------



## carp

d_c said:


> Is there a vent in it and is it filled with insulation?


No and no, I should have done more research before building it.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Add subs to it.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Add subs to it.


I should someday... that and more Crowson's.  However I have to say if I had to choose I'd take nearfield subs first.


----------



## Scott Simonian

If you put the subs under your butt, are they not nearfield?


----------



## desertdome

Scott Simonian said:


> If you put the subs under your butt, are they not nearfield?


More like a minefield in the backfield lifting you in the airfield and tossing you to the outfield.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> If you put the subs under your butt, are they not nearfield?


Haha, eventually we will all have subs under our butts, behind our backs, to our left and right, and the mouth of a horn behind our brain stems.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Haha, eventually we will all have subs under our butts, behind our backs, to our left and right, and the mouth of a horn behind our brain stems.


In other words, kind of how it feels to sit in Austin's old room... 

I think I am going to call my theater "The Second Chamber" as in you are basically sitting in the front chamber of a bandpass box when things are cranking at higher levels.... My steps to the upstairs is the port....


----------



## Scott Simonian

desertdome said:


> More like a minefield in the backfield lifting you in the airfield and tossing you to the outfield.


Yes, exactly.



carp said:


> Haha, eventually we will all have subs under our butts, behind our backs, to our left and right, and the mouth of a horn behind our brain stems.


One step at a time.


----------



## carp

Here's a new one for me. Since I got the new projector every time I turn it on or off it shuts off the AVR. Never happened with the old Epson. Is there a setting I don't know about or something?


----------



## Pain Infliction

What avr do you have? Might be an hdmi sync setting in it.


----------



## carp

Pioneer Elite vsx-53


----------



## Archaea

yeah - an HDMI sync setting. You should be able to disable it on either the projector or the avr.


----------



## cvinfig

On the projector, go to Menu -> Settings -> HDMI Link... and make sure it's turned off.

Edit: Your remote might have an HDMI Link button that will take you right where you need to be to turn it off. Mine does...


----------



## carp

Cool thanks guys, I'll try it when I turn it on tonight.


----------



## carp

Thanks Chuck that worked.


----------



## carp

Now I have a new problem. I have always used spdif digital optical out from my PC to listen to music, but I am wanting to try the Dirac free trial. I hooked up my PC to my avr with a HDMI cable but the only way I can get sound is if my PC display is on the projector. If I turn off the projector, no more sound. I tried changing the avr HDMI setting from "amp" to "through" but that killed the audio too. 

Any ideas? thanks guys


----------



## cvinfig

Can you set up a source on your receiver so that it uses the HDMI audio but doesn't do any video processing? On my Anthem I have to set the video processing mode to "through" in order to listen to music from my AppleTV without having to turn on the projector...


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> Now I have a new problem. I have always used spdif digital optical out from my PC to listen to music, but I am wanting to try the Dirac free trial. I hooked up my PC to my avr with a HDMI cable but the only way I can get sound is if my PC display is on the projector. If I turn off the projector, no more sound. I tried changing the avr HDMI setting from "amp" to "through" but that killed the audio too.
> 
> Any ideas? thanks guys


Press RECEIVER on your remote control and then press the Home Menu.
Select System Setup and press Enter.
Select HDMI Setup and press Enter.
Set the Control with HDMI function to Off.

You can also try connecting the projector to HDMI Out 2 instead of Out 1.


----------



## desertdome

Your manual also says this:










Have you tried starting playback with the projector already off?


----------



## carp

Ahhhhh it works!!!! Thanks Michael, much appreciated!!! 

I turned off "control with HDMI function" and it still wouldn't play, tried power cycling the avr and still no dice, tried unplugging the HDMI and plugging it back and nothing. Then I turned off the AVR, unplugged the HDMI, plugged it back in, and then turned on the AVR - sound!!!


----------



## mg316

Awesome JTR theater! I bet it sounds amazing!


----------



## wse

So many subs Interstellar must shake the house how does it measure on the Richter scale 9.0!!


----------



## Archaea

Carp -- you perhaps get the award for the Best Bass demonstration ever -- based on your playback of John Wick's club scene during the KC Home Theater crawl. 
http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/372-john-wick-discussion-poll-closed/?p=7481

I didn't get to hear that clip at d_c's because I left early - so I can't compare - but that demo stuck with me since the crawl. I need to pick that movie up and try it in my own theater! I watched it at Luke's and dlbeck's so far. Very enjoyable in both places, but neither of those guys had their bass 20dB hot.


----------



## carp

Woah I haven't been on that forum in a long time. I'll reply over there.


----------



## carp

Ha!! Check that... looks like I've never been on that forum. I'll register when I get time.


----------



## Pain Infliction

Now I am going to go revisit that scene. Do you have a time stamp of the club scene?


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> Now I am going to go revisit that scene. Do you have a time stamp of the club scene?



No, I can't remember the time, sorry. One of the chapters takes you right to the beginning of it. Yeah, try it again with the subs WAY hot. It's incredible.


----------



## carp

I updated some pictures on post #1 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...ion/1478065-carp-s-basement.html#post23446334


----------



## Pain Infliction

carp said:


> No, I can't remember the time, sorry. One of the chapters takes you right to the beginning of it. Yeah, try it again with the subs WAY hot. It's incredible.



My subs stay hot! 

I am about to go watch it right now........


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> My subs stay hot!
> 
> I am about to go watch it right now........


Only way to do it!! 

Let me know!


----------



## carp

I have noticed that since I got the Epson 3500 the lip sync seems to be slightly off when playing blu rays - I haven't noticed it for TV. I have never used the audio delay on my avr before this but now it seems like the audio is just slightly ahead of the video. When I turn on the audio delay on my avr the audio is behind the video. 

Is there any other way to tweak the audio to match up to the video? Changing speaker distances won't do anything (I don't think) because that just changes the delay in relationship to each other - if I understand it correctly.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Does the audio delay on your AVR not have a variable setting?


----------



## desertdome

I don't see a lip sync adjustment in your receiver's manual. Archaea's Onkyo lets you set a lip sync adjustment for each source. If using JRiver for Blu-rays, you can adjust lip sync separately for 24 Hz displays vs 50, 60, or 120 Hz displays in Tools > Options > Video > Advanced.


----------



## desertdome

I was curious why there was a different lip sync available in JRiver for 24 Hz (both 23.976 and 24 Hz) vs the other display frequencies. I searched back in the archives to October 28, 2011 and someone requested that JRiver have lip sync because he couldn't compensate correctly in either the TV or receiver. He also found that his TV did 250 ms more processing delay at 24 Hz than other display frequencies. He thought maybe it was doing some "cinema" processing. It was confirmed by another user that he also had a difference in delay with 24 Hz. The original request was at 10:45 am and a JRiver developer (Matt) announced at 2:33 pm that lip sync had been implemented and the build would be released later that day.  It's the user participation in the development that makes me love using an HTPC.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Now just get crackin' on dat immersive audio.


----------



## carp

No, like Michael says there is no adjustment.


----------



## 7channelfreak

carp said:


> I have noticed that since I got the Epson 3500 the lip sync seems to be slightly off when playing blu rays - I haven't noticed it for TV. I have never used the audio delay on my avr before this but now it seems like the audio is just slightly ahead of the video. When I turn on the audio delay on my avr the audio is behind the video.
> 
> Is there any other way to tweak the audio to match up to the video? Changing speaker distances won't do anything (I don't think) because that just changes the delay in relationship to each other - if I understand it correctly.



I had heard the WOW disc has some type of tool for sync. Maybe your bluray player has a delay in it?


----------



## carp

7channelfreak said:


> I had heard the WOW disc has some type of tool for sync. Maybe your bluray player has a delay in it?


Good idea, I'll check the WOW disk.


----------



## carp

Wow, that sucked. I came down with the flu Wednesday and have been in bed ever since until today. No interest in music or even setting foot in the basement. Flu in May?!?!?! It was awful too, I thought I was dying. 103.5 temperature at the worst of it. 

Still have the 4722's hope to actually get to listen to them this week.


----------



## Pain Infliction

When did you get those?


----------



## Reefdvr27

carp said:


> Wow, that sucked. I came down with the flu Wednesday and have been in bed ever since until today. No interest in music or even setting foot in the basement. Flu in May?!?!?! It was awful too, I thought I was dying. 103.5 temperature at the worst of it.
> 
> Still have the 4722's hope to actually get to listen to them this week.


Yeah I came down with something last Friday. I got really sick for a couple of hours. I took some Alka Seltzer cold tabs and felt a little better, but I have had a chest cold ever since. I hope you feel better!


----------



## carp

Thanks Dave, still "sick" but 100 times better. 

I am borrowing the 4722 from mrsmithers (Kevin) who lives a mile away from me. I posted some info in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...-pair-jbl-4722n-speakers-17.html#post34104962


I still like the 215's more but the 4722's really are impressing me. I'm doing this mainly for fun, but of course if I like the 4722's I'd make a change, same way I was when I had Brandon's Danley SH 50's.


----------



## Sibuna

carp said:


> No, I can't remember the time, sorry. One of the chapters takes you right to the beginning of it. Yeah, try it again with the subs WAY hot. It's incredible.


hum ill have to watch this on the main setup. I watched it a bit ago when I was feeling ill lying in bed. that seems to have been a mistake


----------



## carp

Just spent the last couple of weeks with a pair of JBL 4722n's in my room in place of my 215's. I really, really like the JBL's. Today I had some friends over and we listened to both the JBL's and JTR's. I won't speak for them but for me it was obvious that I'll be keeping the 215's. When we put the 215's back and fired up some music I knew right away that these (haha, so far...) are the speakers for me. I can't really describe what I like better about the JTR's... smoother? More refined? (whatever the heck that means) I don't know... but they just do it for me. If I had never heard the JTR's I would be completely happy with the JBL's, they are awesome. 

I'm not saying one speaker is "better" than another - at this level of speaker it's all up to each individuals ears IMO.

I spent a ton of time with EQ on the JBL's. I liked them better with either a boost above 10khz or a notch taken out centered around 6khz or a combination of the two. Don't get me wrong though, they sound very, very good with no EQ. 


Here are measurements taken from my main listening seat. 


Below is the left speaker only, full range no subs, no EQ. My response used to look better before I moved back my rows because I went with an AT screen. I didn't get that null at 500hz (floor bounce?) and the bass was smoother. Oh well, subjectively it sounds about the same to me. 

Black line is the 215, purple is the 4722n:






Right speaker, again full range, no subs, no EQ taken from the exact same spot at the main LP. Black line is 215, purple is 4722:





Looking at the measurments it makes sense that I liked the 4722's with boost up high and pulling down centered at 6khz since that is the sound I am used to with the 215's.

Listening to the 215's right now and I'm back to not wanting to stop. With the JBL's I loved what I was hearing but it didn't addict me like what I'm hearing now. 

For movies... hmmm they sound different but I'm not sure I have a preference. If I only watched movies I think I'd buy 3 4722's for 1150 a piece and call it a day. 

Towards the end today we put on some bass heavy music with the 215's and no subs. It's so fun to me for some reason to get that crazy amount of bass with no subs. I did boost the crap out of the EQ down low of course.


----------



## Archaea

I was over at Carp's today for a few hours, and I really liked the JBL 4722, and I understood why everybody seems to like those speakers. They seemed very much worth the money. They sounded great for music. I started thinking surely Sheldon will just sell the JTR, as these JBL sound great.
Then Sheldon put back the 215RT, and the very first song I knew I liked the 215RT better. The second song confirmed it, and from there it was just more validation.


There is a clarity with the 215RT that the JBL don't possess. In my experience and opinion of hearing the upper tier JTR speakers many times - - there is a clarity of that compression driver that hasn't been matched by any speaker I've heard yet. That same compression driver is used in the 212HT, which is probably still my personal favorite speaker when considering value for me. (Those 215RT are $, and I'm one that is perfectly comfortable crossing over to a capable sub system for music listening). At any rate - that BMS compression driver that Jeff uses seems to be one of a kind. Or Jeff's crossover work is amazing - or whatever --- perhaps a combination. Whatever it is, the JTR ticks my boxes. As good as the JBL 4722 were. The JTR 215RT were just better. (my subjective opinion)


Worth the money better? That's for someone else to decide. Unless I heard them back to back I bet I'd think them equitable enough to not make much difference. Hearing them back to back gave me a clear preference, but I'm pretty comfortable in saying I'd be pleased to own the JBL as well. As Sheldon said, speaker appreciation is subjective.


-------------------
I'm sure both of these speakers in carp's room best my Mackie C200 for two channel music handedly.
Luckily, for me, I'm more concerned about cinema use -- and IMO my Mackies don't give up much of anything in cinema use to any theater I've visited, home theater or commercial --- so given the price delta - I'd have a hard time moving up the incremental ladder of performance for the tremendous increase in cost. Or at least that's what I'm telling myself right now.
But if I was primarily a two channel guy, like Sheldon, I'd be picking up a pair of JTR 212HT or 215RT.


----------



## carp

Dude... I can't get out of my chair this sounds so good. I'm sure my wife is getting even more pissed up there...


----------



## Reefdvr27

carp said:


> Dude... I can't get out of my chair this sounds so good. I'm sure my wife is getting even more pissed up there…


What speakers?


----------



## Archaea

Dave, you know better than to ask that question.


----------



## Reefdvr27

Archaea said:


> Dave, you know better than to ask that question.


I just wanted to check! I am glad now I don't need to go out a get a pair of 4722's  Like you, I have yet to hear a speaker that can beat the top end of the 212HT/215RT IMO. I thought maybe the M2 would have been the one, but not the case, so I am pretty sure the 4722 would not be the one either. The M2 is a fantastic speaker and I am sure the 4722 is also, but as you said the JTR CD's are just special


----------



## Frohlich

carp said:


> Just spent the last couple of weeks with a pair of JBL 4722n's in my room in place of my 215's. I really, really like the JBL's. Today I had some friends over and we listened to both the JBL's and JTR's. I won't speak for them but for me it was obvious that I'll be keeping the 215's. When we put the 215's back and fired up some music I knew right away that these (haha, so far...) are the speakers for me. I can't really describe what I like better about the JTR's... smoother? More refined? (whatever the heck that means) I don't know... but they just do it for me. If I had never heard the JTR's I would be completely happy with the JBL's, they are awesome.
> 
> I'm not saying one speaker is "better" than another - at this level of speaker it's all up to each individuals ears IMO.
> 
> I spent a ton of time with EQ on the JBL's. I liked them better with either a boost above 10khz or a notch taken out centered around 6khz or a combination of the two. Don't get me wrong though, they sound very, very good with no EQ.
> 
> 
> Here are measurements taken from my main listening seat.
> 
> 
> Below is the left speaker only, full range no subs, no EQ. My response used to look better before I moved back my rows because I went with an AT screen. I didn't get that null at 500hz (floor bounce?) and the bass was smoother. Oh well, subjectively it sounds about the same to me.
> 
> Black line is the 215, purple is the 4722n:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right speaker, again full range, no subs, no EQ taken from the exact same spot at the main LP. Black line is 215, purple is 4722:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the measurments it makes sense that I liked the 4722's with boost up high and pulling down centered at 6khz since that is the sound I am used to with the 215's.
> 
> Listening to the 215's right now and I'm back to not wanting to stop. With the JBL's I loved what I was hearing but it didn't addict me like what I'm hearing now.
> 
> For movies... hmmm they sound different but I'm not sure I have a preference. If I only watched movies I think I'd buy 3 4722's for 1150 a piece and call it a day.
> 
> Towards the end today we put on some bass heavy music with the 215's and no subs. It's so fun to me for some reason to get that crazy amount of bass with no subs. I did boost the crap out of the EQ down low of course.





Archaea said:


> I was over at Carp's today for a few hours, and I really liked the JBL 4722, and I understood why everybody seems to like those speakers. They seemed very much worth the money. They sounded great for music. I started thinking surely Sheldon will just sell the JTR, as these JBL sound great.
> Then Sheldon put back the 215RT, and the very first song I knew I liked the 215RT better. The second song confirmed it, and from there it was just more validation.
> 
> 
> There is a clarity with the 215RT that the JBL don't possess. In my experience and opinion of hearing the upper tier JTR speakers many times - - there is a clarity of that compression driver that hasn't been matched by any speaker I've heard yet. That same compression driver is used in the 212HT, which is probably still my personal favorite speaker when considering value for me. (Those 215RT are $, and I'm one that is perfectly comfortable crossing over to a capable sub system for music listening). At any rate - that BMS compression driver that Jeff uses seems to be one of a kind. Or Jeff's crossover work is amazing - or whatever --- perhaps a combination. Whatever it is, the JTR ticks my boxes. As good as the JBL 4722 were. The JTR 215RT were just better. (my subjective opinion)
> 
> 
> Worth the money better? That's for someone else to decide. Unless I heard them back to back I bet I'd think them equitable enough to not make much difference. Hearing them back to back gave me a clear preference, but I'm pretty comfortable in saying I'd be pleased to own the JBL as well. As Sheldon said, speaker appreciation is subjective.
> 
> 
> -------------------
> I'm sure both of these speakers in carp's room best my Mackie C200 for two channel music handedly.
> Luckily, for me, I'm more concerned about cinema use -- and IMO my Mackies don't give up much of anything in cinema use to any theater I've visited, home theater or commercial --- so given the price delta - I'd have a hard time moving up the incremental ladder of performance for the tremendous increase in cost. Or at least that's what I'm telling myself right now.
> But if I was primarily a two channel guy, like Sheldon, I'd be picking up a pair of JTR 212HT or 215RT.


Thank you both. As I stated on the 4722 thread, the more honest reviews and impressions we have on threads the more AVS members can get a balanced view of a given component and can make informed decisions.


----------



## Pain Infliction

I have never heard the 4722's but I have heard the 215RM's. I can completely understand why you guys like them so much. They sounded fantastic at Randy's house and are my favorite sounding speakers that I have heard to date. That includes Triad, B&W 802 diamonds, Martin Logan, and even the crazy B&W​ Nautilus which IMO are way over priced. I would really like the hear the 4722's, but I don't know anybody that owns them in Houston.


----------



## carp

Guys, this shouldn't read as though it's a definitive statement that the 215's are better than the 4722's. I think they are, but my friend Kevin that bought the other 4722 (we each bought one to try them out) likes the 4722's more and so does his wife. That's what I love about being able to hear these speakers in my room so I'll know for myself. 

I do have to say, it's so nice to be listening to the 215's again. Hmmm probably no coincidence that this is the first time in 2 weeks that I've stayed up this late. Well, I did have the flu for 7 of those days to be fair....


----------



## Archaea

I'm still up to you too listening to music with the subs 15 dB hotter than normal.

So probably 25dB hot.

I've had my amps clipping tonight to dubstep. That's Loud, carp approved bass!

My ceiling lights are dimming and my subwoofer amps are on dedicated circuits.


----------



## Archaea

This is your fault carp...


----------



## Frohlich

carp said:


> Guys, this shouldn't read as though it's a definitive statement that the 215's are better than the 4722's. I think they are, but my friend Kevin that bought the other 4722 (we each bought one to try them out) likes the 4722's more and so does his wife. That's what I love about being able to hear these speakers in my room so I'll know for myself.
> 
> I do have to say, it's so nice to be listening to the 215's again. Hmmm probably no coincidence that this is the first time in 2 weeks that I've stayed up this late. Well, I did have the flu for 7 of those days to be fair....


I didn't take it that way at all Sheldon. There is not always "better" in audio. They sound different and are both very high quality speakers. I prefer the sonic signature of the 4722 to the JTR 212s I owned but they are both sound really nice. If you sat down 10 AVS members to listen to both for extended period of time you would likely never have 100% alignment on which of the two speakers they preferred. Some will like one better, some will like the other better. You see this all the time when there are GTG with multiple speakers on tap and you have all sorts of different impressions and preferences at the end of the night.

BTW, I can't include the 215s in my personal comment as I have never heard them.


----------



## COACH2369

I also thank you for your honest review of these speakers.

Having heard the 212HT's, 215RT/RM and Cat-12's in my room.....then hearing the 4722N's, I would pick the 4722N's as the speaker that best fits what ears like in a speaker.

We all like different things and that is why is such a great hobby.


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> This is your fault carp...
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/ZaSsun9tjIM


Haha, that made me laugh!! 

Hey, no fair I can't do that over here. The last time I had a system that could dim the lights was in college in Lincoln when we had a party house in the "hood". We had Cerwin Vega speakers with 15 inch drivers and abused the crap out of them. I had the bass boost on the receiver turned on, the bass and treble knobs turned all the way up, and a separate Yamaha graphic EQ with the smiley face configuration. 

This was 1995-96 before subs were seen very much outside of car audio. Those speakers would hit so hard for the time, I'm sure it helped that we were on a VERY rickety old wood suspended floor and the house was probably 70 years old.

Anyway, every time the bass hit all the lights would dim - a lot. 

Haha, if we had your system or my system in there now it probably would have leveled the house!


----------



## carp

Frohlich said:


> I didn't take it that way at all Sheldon. There is not always "better" in audio. They sound different and are both very high quality speakers. I prefer the sonic signature of the 4722 to the JTR 212s I owned but they are both sound really nice. If you sat down 10 AVS members to listen to both for extended period of time you would likely never have 100% alignment on which of the two speakers they preferred. Some will like one better, some will like the other better. You see this all the time when there are GTG with multiple speakers on tap and you have all sorts of different impressions and preferences at the end of the night.
> 
> BTW, I can't include the 215s in my personal comment as I have never heard them.





COACH2369 said:


> I also thank you for your honest review of these speakers.
> 
> Having heard the 212HT's, 215RT/RM and Cat-12's in my room.....then hearing the 4722N's, I would pick the 4722N's as the speaker that best fits what ears like in a speaker.
> 
> We all like different things and that is why is such a great hobby.


Thanks guys. Yeah, it would be pretty boring if everyone had the same taste in sound. Are you guys going to go active with the 4722's? Sounds like it's worth trying out since it isn't that (relatively) expensive.


----------



## Reefdvr27

carp said:


> Guys, this shouldn't read as though it's a definitive statement that the 215's are better than the 4722's. I think they are, but my friend Kevin that bought the other 4722 (we each bought one to try them out) likes the 4722's more and so does his wife. That's what I love about being able to hear these speakers in my room so I'll know for myself.
> 
> I do have to say, it's so nice to be listening to the 215's again. Hmmm probably no coincidence that this is the first time in 2 weeks that I've stayed up this late. Well, I did have the flu for 7 of those days to be fair....


I think you are the only person on here that I have agreed with on pretty much ever speaker you have demoed. I think we pretty much have the same ear for sound, maybe not so much the bass. There are other speakers I have heard and liked, but I would find something about them that I don't like and I don't have that with my JTR's. I mean I don't even know what my second speaker choice would be if I did not have the JTR's? Oddly enough the speaker that actually blew me away were @Sibuna 's DIY Fusion quad 4's we heard at Gorilla's. They would not win any SPL war, but they sounded great for $150 bucks! They really sounded nice and that was just running them upstairs out in the open with no help.


----------



## Pain Infliction

carp said:


> Haha, that made me laugh!!
> 
> Hey, no fair I can't do that over here. The last time I had a system that could dim the lights was in college in Lincoln when we had a party house in the "hood". We had Cerwin Vega speakers with 15 inch drivers and abused the crap out of them. I had the bass boost on the receiver turned on, the bass and treble knobs turned all the way up, and a separate Yamaha graphic EQ with the smiley face configuration.
> 
> This was 1995-96 before subs were seen very much outside of car audio. Those speakers would hit so hard for the time, I'm sure it helped that we were on a VERY rickety old wood suspended floor and the house was probably 70 years old.
> 
> Anyway, every time the bass hit all the lights would dim - a lot.
> 
> Haha, if we had your system or my system in there now it probably would have leveled the house!


Haha, I remember those Cerwin Vega speakers. They had the red surround around the driver and you could get the driver up to a 15" in size. It had two giant ports on the back of the speaker. I have a pair in storage at my office.


----------



## theblackangus

COACH2369 said:


> I also thank you for your honest review of these speakers.
> 
> Having heard the 212HT's, 215RT/RM and Cat-12's in my room.....then hearing the 4722N's, I would pick the 4722N's as the speaker that best fits what ears like in a speaker.
> 
> We all like different things and that is why is such a great hobby.


So it that where you landed coach? 4722N? Or do you still have the Cats?


----------



## Sibuna

Reefdvr27 said:


> I think you are the only person on here that I have agreed with on pretty much ever speaker you have demoed. I think we pretty much have the same ear for sound, maybe not so much the bass. There are other speakers I have heard and liked, but I would find something about them that I don't like and I don't have that with my JTR's. I mean I don't even know what my second speaker choice would be if I did not have the JTR's? Oddly enough the speaker that actually blew me away were @Sibuna 's DIY Fusion quad 4's we heard at Gorilla's. They would not win any SPL war, but they sounded great for $150 bucks! They really sounded nice and that was just running them upstairs out in the open with no help.


those were fun little speakers

I should build another pair


----------



## theblackangus

Pain Infliction said:


> Haha, I remember those Cerwin Vega speakers. They had the red surround around the driver and you could get the driver up to a 15" in size. It had two giant ports on the back of the speaker. I have a pair in storage at my office.


I have 4 in my basement from 1986 still rocking after a re-foam, alas after hearing the JTR speakers (215RT, 212HT, 210RT) I knew I had to have them.
Leaving the CV's to rock out as garage/shop speakers.=) or maybe rears for a 9.1 mostly JTR setup ;-)


----------



## COACH2369

theblackangus said:


> So it that where you landed coach? 4722N? Or do you still have the Cats?


I am still going back and forth on what to do...but the Cats are on their way out the door very soon.


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> Thanks guys. Yeah, it would be pretty boring if everyone had the same taste in sound. Are you guys going to go active with the 4722's? Sounds like it's worth trying out since it isn't that (relatively) expensive.


I am leaning that way very much. Just trying to decide between the 1000 or 2000 amp.


----------



## theblackangus

COACH2369 said:


> I am still going back and forth on what to do...but the Cats are on their way out the door very soon.


My God Man! 
Cant wait to hear about your next adventure!


----------



## Reefdvr27

Sibuna said:


> those were fun little speakers
> 
> I should build another pair


 @Sibuna If you ever want to build a pair, I will buy them! You do a great job with the finish, that I could not do. If you want a project to do and want to make a few bucks, LMK!


----------



## carp

Reefdvr27 said:


> I think you are the only person on here that I have agreed with on pretty much ever speaker you have demoed. I think we pretty much have the same ear for sound, maybe not so much the bass. There are other speakers I have heard and liked, but I would find something about them that I don't like and I don't have that with my JTR's. I mean I don't even know what my second speaker choice would be if I did not have the JTR's? Oddly enough the speaker that actually blew me away were @Sibuna 's DIY Fusion quad 4's we heard at Gorilla's. They would not win any SPL war, but they sounded great for $150 bucks! They really sounded nice and that was just running them upstairs out in the open with no help.


Ha, yeah you and me both were in love with the Danley at one of Gorilla's GTG and then in our own rooms not quite as much so yes, I agree we have similar ears. 

I didn't get to hear Adam's Fusion Quads, sounds like a great pair of speakers for my screened porch!!


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> Haha, I remember those Cerwin Vega speakers. They had the red surround around the driver and you could get the driver up to a 15" in size. It had two giant ports on the back of the speaker. I have a pair in storage at my office.





theblackangus said:


> I have 4 in my basement from 1986 still rocking after a re-foam, alas after hearing the JTR speakers (215RT, 212HT, 210RT) I knew I had to have them.
> Leaving the CV's to rock out as garage/shop speakers.=) or maybe rears for a 9.1 mostly JTR setup ;-)


I had mine until 2004 when I bought Axiom m60's. They had a lot of output down to the low 30's. Ha, I burnt through a lot of fuses. Can't believe they never died.


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> I had mine until 2004 when I bought Axiom m60's. They had a lot of output down to the low 30's. Ha, I burnt through a lot of fuses. Can't believe they never died.


Axiom M60's....Those speakers were going strong for me from 2003-2010. Thought they were the GREATEST speaker ever. Paired with a VP-150 and some QS8's. Then I upgraded to the VP-180 and some M80's.. After that, it has been sad how many speakers I have had in my rooms.


----------



## carp

COACH2369 said:


> Axiom M60's....Those speakers were going strong for me from 2003-2010. Thought they were the GREATEST speaker ever. Paired with a VP-150 and some QS8's. Then I upgraded to the VP-180 and some M80's.. After that, it has been sad how many speakers I have had in my rooms.


I had the vp 150 center also and m2's for rears. I could never get the m60's to sound right for 2 channel. I didn't have as much money to spend on the hobby so I had them for a very long time, until around 2009. Way to long to have speakers that I didn't really like. I replaced them with Magnepans and music sounded so much better. 

I still have M3's in my kitchen and they sound good in that room.


----------



## stitch1

carp said:


> I do have to say, it's so nice to be listening to the 215's again. Hmmm probably no coincidence that this is the first time in 2 weeks that I've stayed up this late. Well, I did have the flu for 7 of those days to be fair....


It sounds like your body went into JTR withdrawal. I hear the symptoms are very flu like. Glad to hear you are past all that now and back to your regular dose of JTR. 

Did Jonathan tell you his idea for subs in my room? The basic idea is to build a sub cabinet into the second row's riser with the subs firing straight into the bottom of the seats. The front row would be coupled to the back row with an attached mini riser.


----------



## carp

stitch1 said:


> It sounds like your body went into JTR withdrawal. I hear the symptoms are very flu like. Glad to hear you are past all that now and back to your regular dose of JTR.
> 
> Did Jonathan tell you his idea for subs in my room? The basic idea is to build a sub cabinet into the second row's riser with the subs firing straight into the bottom of the seats. The front row would be coupled to the back row with an attached mini riser.


Haha, nice!! JTR withdrawal is brutal.

Love that idea, how big of drivers can you fit in the riser? Should be crazy tactile just don't build it too solid like I did mine!


----------



## Sibuna

Reefdvr27 said:


> @Sibuna If you ever want to build a pair, I will buy them! You do a great job with the finish, that I could not do. If you want a project to do and want to make a few bucks, LMK!


----------



## stitch1

carp said:


> Haha, nice!! JTR withdrawal is brutal.
> 
> Love that idea, how big of drivers can you fit in the riser? Should be crazy tactile just don't build it too solid like I did mine!


As a rough estimate... as big or as many as wanted. The riser is going to be around a foot tall and around 11 feet wide. The depth hasn't been finalized but I would guess around 5 feet or so. Then the mini riser will go out further forward to include the front row of seats. Because they are so close to the seats, Jonathan was thinking like 3 15". Once I know what my finale riser size is going to be and what seats are going in there I will be able to choose what I can really fit.


----------



## Reefdvr27

Sibuna said:


>


LOL!! Love it


----------



## wse

Hope your friend who built the riser was well compensated with the money seat for the first movie


----------



## carp

wse said:


> Hope your friend who built the riser was well compensated with the money seat for the first movie


He's a great guy, I had a bunch of people over for the fight last month and he brought 2 cases of beer and insisted on paying for the fight himself. Gotta love that.


----------



## carp

Random post. 

I'm not surprised at all by this.


----------



## K9woofer

You can't kill the Metal.


----------



## stitch1




----------



## NWCgrad

Who is planning on attending a show next year for Black Sabbath's farewell tour? 

I have already told my wife I am going, will try to find an indoor venue and I hate outdoor shows. Will be willing to drive 2500 miles!


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> Who is planning on attending a show next year for Black Sabbath's farewell tour?
> 
> I have already told my wife I am going, will try to find an indoor venue and I hate outdoor shows. Will be willing to drive 2500 miles!


Have they announced the dates/locations?


----------



## NWCgrad

Not yet outside of the final show in Japan...I am actively tracking their website to ensure I don't miss out. They played the DC area two days before I moved back from Cambodia...I was pissed that I could not get earlier flights home (had to wait 12 days post my end of tour for a flight).


----------



## carp

Ok, keep me posted because I am interested for sure. If it happens to be during the summer I'll have no excuses even if I have to travel.


----------



## carp

The audio delay is starting to really bug me. Is there any device out there that I can adjust the delay on the audio to get it right? Something that isn't expensive and doesn't involve buying another avr?

I'm starting to think I should have left well enough alone and lived with the dust blobs on my 8350 because I didn't have the lip sync problems when I used that projector.


----------



## Archaea

Avsynch one 2.

Pay desertdome to borrow/rent his.


----------



## desertdome

All the Sync-One2 does is accurately measure lip sync. I think Carp wants something to fix lip sync. 

Almost all displays do different processing at 23.98 Hz (24p) vs other frequencies. A receiver only lets you adjust lip sync once for each source. If your source uses various frequencies (Blu-ray & DVD) then only one will be correct.

JRiver is the only thing I know of that handles this by allowing two different lip sync settings and automatically switches based on content. With the ability to handle multiple zones and criteria, one can actually configure JRiver with infinite lip sync settings. This is why receivers are stupid and HTPC's are smart. 

Note: No matter how much processing and delay is added in JRiver by PEQ, active crossovers, convolution or other DSP, the final output always has the audio and video match exactly because JRiver knows the exact delay that occurs and will sync the a/v output. Once it leaves JRiver, there can be additional delay added by displays or anything else you put in the a/v signal chain.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> ....doesn't involve buying another avr?



Sony HW40ES? 




carp said:


> Something that isn't expensive


Well crap.


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> Avsynch one 2.
> 
> Pay desertdome to borrow/rent his.


Like Michael said I don't need to measure it I need a fix for it. The WOW disk can show me how off I am but that does me no good. 

I'm not going to a HTPC so Jriver is out so it sounds like my only options are:

1. An AVR that has more control over the delay instead of just on and off.

2. A different projector that doesn't have as much delay as the 3500.


Scott, you are saying the Sony doesn't have as much delay as mine? Well.... damn. You saw my reaction at Ryan's house when he told us what projector he has and this just makes it worse... oh well too late now.


----------



## carp

It's weird. I've noticed that the sync issue is worse on live broadcasts on directv. When watching a normal tv show or movie on directv it's not bad and I can't really tell. When watching the pregame of the NBA finals last night it was awful. The audio was long before the video. When I try turning on the audio delay on the avr the video is before the audio. 

Blu Ray movies seem just fine.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> Scott, you are saying the Sony doesn't have as much delay as mine? Well.... damn. You saw my reaction at Ryan's house when he told us what projector he has and this just makes it worse... oh well too late now.


I have no idea what the input lag or delay is on your new Epson but I know that the Sony has a very low latency and that was one of a few things that is having me gravitate towards that particular model.

It's not cheap and for you, probably not bright enough for your casual viewing needs. Will it fix your lipsych problem? Maybe. Big gamble. I was just being a ******.  

I'd suggest you comb through ALL your settings in the Epson and read the manual. There may or may not be some processing turned on that is making the sync worse than it could be. Also, some projectors have a "game mode" that can enhance their speed but from what I've seen they degrade the picture was well. Ugh. 

I want to believe there is an easy fix for this problem. I'll go look up your projector and see if it's an issue.


Does this sync issue happen with ALL your sources?



carp said:


> It's weird. I've noticed that the sync issue is worse on live broadcasts on directv. When watching a normal tv show or movie on directv it's not bad and I can't really tell. When watching the pregame of the NBA finals last night it was awful. The audio was long before the video. When I try turning on the audio delay on the avr the video is before the audio.
> 
> Blu Ray movies seem just fine.



Oh. Hmm...


----------



## carp

Will do, I'll check all the Epson settings tonight. 

I wonder if this is more of a directv issue??? I swear I didn't notice this problem right as I hooked up the 3500... the only thing that has changed in the house the last couple weeks is getting google fiber but that was for internet only so surely that can't mess with directv's signal.


----------



## beastaudio

I would consider the source. Dtv or even nbc potentially had it off with production. I have seen this before several times with DTV when I have NEVER had the issue with any BD movie or gaming system I have ever had in my rack.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> Will do, I'll check all the Epson settings tonight.
> 
> I wonder if this is more of a directv issue??? I swear I didn't notice this problem right as I hooked up the 3500... the only thing that has changed in the house the last couple weeks is getting google fiber but that was for internet only so surely that can't mess with directv's signal.





beastaudio said:


> I would consider the source. Dtv or even nbc potentially had it off with production. I have seen this before several times with DTV when I have NEVER had the issue with any BD movie or gaming system I have ever had in my rack.


I would agree with Brandon that this could possibly be isolated to just DTV/whatever your programming is. I've seen it happen with my Comcast cable and I've seen it friends houses with DTV/Dish is various material. It happens.

Do you have a DVR in your HT room? Can you repeat the sync problem with a replay and if so, try changing channels and see if it is the same on other content.

If BD and videogames are fine I'd just put to crappy tv.


----------



## lukeamdman

Your receiver doesn't have an "audio delay" setting for each input?

My 5yr old Marantz can separately delay each source from 0-250ms, which is nice since the delay from my Oppo needs to be different than the HTPC/JRiver.


----------



## carp

lukeamdman said:


> Your receiver doesn't have an "audio delay" setting for each input?
> 
> My 5yr old Marantz can separately delay each source from 0-250ms, which is nice since the delay from my Oppo needs to be different than the HTPC/JRiver.


It does but all you can do is turn it on or off, there are no settings other than that. On and the sound is late, off and the sound is early - for directv anyway.


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> It does but all you can do is turn it on or off, there are no settings other than that.


That's not what the manual says.


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> That's not what the manual says.


Haha, thanks - I'm a bit slow. There is another setting that says audio delay and the only options are on and off and that's all I was seeing. I just went down to check the AVR and sure enough there are 2 audio delay settings in the menu. I'll try it out tonight with the NBA pregame to see if I can get it to match up. I swear in game 2 I was hearing a swish before the ball went through the net. Not for Steph Curry of course....


----------



## carp

Yep, that fixed it thanks DD!!

Ok, next fire to put out. I heard bad sounds coming from one of my 215's for the first time ever tonight. A rattling/fuzzy type sound. Here is what I mean:







I was afraid something might be wrong with the CD. The left speaker was making the sound but not the right speaker. So I switched the inputs on the inuke and it now makes the bad sound on the right speaker instead of the left - so thankfully it's not the speakers. Also, I know it's not the song I've heard the rattling sound on a number of songs tonight. 

I'll check the wiring to the speakon, I have a history of nothing but hate for speakons so that's probably a safe bet. Any other ideas what it could be? Are you guys hearing the sound I'm talking about in the video?


----------



## femi

carp said:


> Haha, thanks - I'm a bit slow. There is another setting that says audio delay and the only options are on and off and that's all I was seeing. I just went down to check the AVR and sure enough there are 2 audio delay settings in the menu. I'll try it out tonight with the NBA pregame to see if I can get it to match up. I swear in game 2 I was hearing a swish before the ball went through the net. Not for Steph Curry of course....


lol...he played much better in 4Q last night.


----------



## carp

femi said:


> lol...he played much better in 4Q last night.


He sure did, and I'm a big fan. Unfortunately he also started turning the ball over...


----------



## Pain Infliction

carp said:


> Yep, that fixed it thanks DD!!
> 
> Ok, next fire to put out. I heard bad sounds coming from one of my 215's for the first time ever tonight. A rattling/fuzzy type sound. Here is what I mean:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkbxT0jVRzE
> 
> 
> I was afraid something might be wrong with the CD. The left speaker was making the sound but not the right speaker. So I switched the inputs on the inuke and it now makes the bad sound on the right speaker instead of the left - so thankfully it's not the speakers. Also, I know it's not the song I've heard the rattling sound on a number of songs tonight.
> 
> I'll check the wiring to the speakon, I have a history of nothing but hate for speakons so that's probably a safe bet. Any other ideas what it could be? Are you guys hearing the sound I'm talking about in the video?


I think that I hear it after the second time playing it with the volume turned really loud. Kinda weird that the amp is making that noise. Have you figured out what the cause of it was yet? Maybe you are right about the speakon, and there could be a loose connection inside of it???


----------



## NWCgrad

I though the sound was @carp training for the KC American Ninja city finals.


----------



## Sibuna

carp said:


> Yep, that fixed it thanks DD!!
> 
> Ok, next fire to put out. I heard bad sounds coming from one of my 215's for the first time ever tonight. A rattling/fuzzy type sound. Here is what I mean:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkbxT0jVRzE
> 
> 
> I was afraid something might be wrong with the CD. The left speaker was making the sound but not the right speaker. So I switched the inputs on the inuke and it now makes the bad sound on the right speaker instead of the left - so thankfully it's not the speakers. Also, I know it's not the song I've heard the rattling sound on a number of songs tonight.
> 
> I'll check the wiring to the speakon, I have a history of nothing but hate for speakons so that's probably a safe bet. Any other ideas what it could be? Are you guys hearing the sound I'm talking about in the video?


I have good news for you if I'm hearing what you are talking about correctly its not your speakers or the amp. That song (Iron Maiden - For The Greater Good of God) you are playing has that sound in it itself. toss on a pair of headphones and crank it, you can clearly hear it in the left ear. Its in the recording, sounds like an artifact off one of the cymbal pedals.


does it happen with other songs? because if not then its the recording as I described, if it happens across songs then I have no idea but id wager its the song based off what I hear in your vid and my headphones listening to it right now


----------



## Scott Simonian

Sibuna said:


> I have good news for you if I'm hearing what you are talking about correctly its not your speakers or the amp. That song (Iron Maiden - For The Greater Good of God) you are playing has that sound in it itself. toss on a pair of headphones and crank it, you can clearly hear it in the left ear. Its in the recording, sounds like an artifact off one of the cymbal pedals.
> 
> 
> does it happen with other songs? because if not then its the recording as I described, if it happens across songs then I have no idea but id wager its the song based off what I hear in your vid and my headphones listening to it right now


The downfall of owning a set of really revealing speakers.


----------



## Sibuna

Scott Simonian said:


> The downfall of owning a set of really revealing speakers.



Yep, made so much of my music really seem bad

another one that is fun to see what you pick up on is "Overture by Daft Punk" off the Tron Legacy Soundtrack


----------



## Reefdvr27

carp said:


> Yep, that fixed it thanks DD!!
> 
> Ok, next fire to put out. I heard bad sounds coming from one of my 215's for the first time ever tonight. A rattling/fuzzy type sound. Here is what I mean:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkbxT0jVRzE
> 
> 
> I was afraid something might be wrong with the CD. The left speaker was making the sound but not the right speaker. So I switched the inputs on the inuke and it now makes the bad sound on the right speaker instead of the left - so thankfully it's not the speakers. Also, I know it's not the song I've heard the rattling sound on a number of songs tonight.
> 
> I'll check the wiring to the speakon, I have a history of nothing but hate for speakons so that's probably a safe bet. Any other ideas what it could be? Are you guys hearing the sound I'm talking about in the video?


Ever consider the TS cables?

http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-Cable-CP...=UTF8&qid=1435596608&sr=1-1&keywords=TS+cable


----------



## carp

Sibuna said:


> I have good news for you if I'm hearing what you are talking about correctly its not your speakers or the amp. That song (Iron Maiden - For The Greater Good of God) you are playing has that sound in it itself. toss on a pair of headphones and crank it, you can clearly hear it in the left ear. Its in the recording, sounds like an artifact off one of the cymbal pedals.
> 
> 
> does it happen with other songs? because if not then its the recording as I described, if it happens across songs then I have no idea but id wager its the song based off what I hear in your vid and my headphones listening to it right now



Thanks Adam!!  Yep, you are right about that sound being in the song itself. 

Well, at least Maiden only has an issue in one song - unlike the entire Death Magnetic album - glad I have the guitar hero version of that album. 

It amazes me that the production guys/mixing guys/whatever guys that are making these albums can't hear these annoying sounds and fix things before putting out the album.


Anyway, there is another issue going on but I'm pretty sure it's just the xlr to rca cord? I was watching Interstellar a few nights ago and was hearing crackly type sounds in the left speaker. I switched the left and right xlr cables and replayed the scene and the sound was then in the right speaker. When I switched the cables back and reran the scene again suddenly the sound was gone. Is it possible to have some kind of "short" in the cable? It hasn't happened since that night but still I should probably order a nicer cable to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Speaking of Interstellar - I really liked it the first time I watched it. The other night was the second time and I absolutely LOVED it.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Damn right, you did. It's an excellent movie. I've watched it at least a half dozen times already.


----------



## Pain Infliction

carp said:


> Thanks Adam!!  Yep, you are right about that sound being in the song itself.
> 
> Well, at least Maiden only has an issue in one song - unlike the entire Death Magnetic album - glad I have the guitar hero version of that album.
> 
> It amazes me that the production guys/mixing guys/whatever guys that are making these albums can't hear these annoying sounds and fix things before putting out the album.
> 
> 
> Anyway, there is another issue going on but I'm pretty sure it's just the xlr to rca cord? I was watching Interstellar a few nights ago and was hearing crackly type sounds in the left speaker. I switched the left and right xlr cables and replayed the scene and the sound was then in the right speaker. When I switched the cables back and reran the scene again suddenly the sound was gone. Is it possible to have some kind of "short" in the cable? It hasn't happened since that night but still I should probably order a nicer cable to make sure it doesn't happen again.
> 
> Speaking of Interstellar - I really liked it the first time I watched it. The other night was the second time and I absolutely LOVED it.



Probably not a short because that would throw your avr or amp into protect mode or shut it off. However, it could be a loose connection in the solder joint or a partial break in the wire. The best way to see if it comes back is to move the wire around and bend it slightly to see if you get the sound again.


----------



## beastaudio

Scott Simonian said:


> Damn right, you did. It's an excellent movie. I've watched it at least a half dozen times already.


Watching it right now! No kidding!


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> Probably not a short because that would throw your avr or amp into protect mode or shut it off. However, it could be a loose connection in the solder joint or a partial break in the wire. The best way to see if it comes back is to move the wire around and bend it slightly to see if you get the sound again.


My amp is in the next room so I can't test that out, but if it continues I could bring the amp in here and try it out.


----------



## Pain Infliction

Have your daughter or wife move it around while you listen? Or just replace it.


----------



## carp

Good idea, but the kids are too young and I learned a long time ago to stop asking my wife for any help. She's great, but she has little patience for helping me tinker around with the system. 

She did help me put up velvet once I almost had a heart attack!


----------



## Pain Infliction

hahaha.....I completely understand.


----------



## carp

Just finished Jupiter Ascending. Wow guys you have to check this one out. Movie is bad... but watchable. The bass is the best I have heard since I got the nearfield sub and crowson. 

All of the KC guys would have wanted to use it as a demo, and there are tons of scenes that are equally impressive.


----------



## lukeamdman

carp said:


> Just finished Jupiter Ascending. Wow guys you have to check this one out. Movie is bad... but watchable. The bass is the best I have heard since I got the nearfield sub and crowson.
> 
> All of the KC guys would have wanted to use it as a demo, and there are tons of scenes that are equally impressive.


Right at 1:33:00 in the movie there's a 25hz hit that's crazy.


----------



## Pain Infliction

Nice! I just picked it up and will give it a play this weekend.


----------



## carp

lukeamdman said:


> Right at 1:33:00 in the movie there's a 25hz hit that's crazy.


I saw you posted that over at databass. I was waiting for it but I never heard one specific hit that seemed more intense than everything else. If I get around to it I'll go to that time stamp today and see if I can tell. 

This movie is relentless with impressive bass!


----------



## Reefdvr27

carp said:


> Just finished Jupiter Ascending. Wow guys you have to check this one out. Movie is bad... but watchable. The bass is the best I have heard since I got the nearfield sub and crowson.
> 
> All of the KC guys would have wanted to use it as a demo, and there are tons of scenes that are equally impressive.


I have had that movie on standby till it is $5 bucks! I guess I am going to have get it now! If it is demo material, then it is worthy!


----------



## carp

Reefdvr27 said:


> I have had that movie on standby till it is $5 bucks! I guess I am going to have get it now! If it is demo material, then it is worthy!


Yeah Dave I'd get it if I were you. Have low expectations for plot and you'll be fine, it really isn't that bad. For a full movie it's the best bass demo I've ever heard. Start to finish it's great. 

I prefer John Wick for the movie by a mile, but the bass in JA is more impactful and more impressive.


----------



## d_c

Oh gawd, Jupiter Ascending is awful, but if you can just turn your critical thinking off for a couple of hours and enjoy the incredible sounds and graphics, you will be pleased! Couple few beers before and during wouldn't hurt either.


----------



## desertdome

I just watched Ragnarok a couple nights ago. It is a good movie and some of the best bass I've experienced. I thought it was very similar to 9 regarding having frequent bass. For what its worth, it is one of the few 5-Star Films at data-bass.com.

Edit: Here is a review of the movie.


----------



## Reefdvr27

d_c said:


> Oh gawd, Jupiter Ascending is awful, but if you can just turn your critical thinking off for a couple of hours and enjoy the incredible sounds and graphics, you will be pleased! Couple few beers before and during wouldn't hurt either.


I can only imagine what it sounds like in the house of bass LOL. My ribs are still broken from your demo!


----------



## NWCgrad

d_c said:


> Oh gawd, Jupiter Ascending is awful, but if you can just turn your critical thinking off for a couple of hours and enjoy the incredible sounds and graphics, you will be pleased! Couple few beers before and during wouldn't hurt either.


Man with this glowing endorsement I will log into Amazon and buy today...I need an excuse to drink more beer.


----------



## Pain Infliction

I just finished watching Jupiter Ascending and the movie is not my type of movie. But.......this movie beat me up a lot with the bass! It has been a while since that has happened. My body still feels weird right now. Carp, you were right about a few of the scenes are demo worthy. The surround mix was really good too. Excellent audio track all around IMO.


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> I just finished watching Jupiter Ascending and the movie is not my type of movie. But.......this movie beat me up a lot with the bass! It has been a while since that has happened. My body still feels weird right now. Carp, you were right about a few of the scenes are demo worthy. The surround mix was really good too. Excellent audio track all around IMO.


Ha, yep it felt like a work out by the time the movie was over.


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> I just watched Ragnarok a couple nights ago. It is a good movie and some of the best bass I've experienced. I thought it was very similar to 9 regarding having frequent bass. For what its worth, it is one of the few 5-Star Films at data-bass.com.
> 
> Edit: Here is a review of the movie.



I saw it a couple months ago, but I streamed it from Netflix. Even with streaming the bass was crazy intense. JA was more impressive but I'd have to watch the Ragnorok Blu Ray to make a fair comparison.


----------



## stitch1

I picked up Jupiter Ascending from RedBox yesterday but with the crazy storm last night I didn't get a chance to watch it yet. I told my wife I rented us a movie and told her what it is. She asked what it was about and I said I have no idea but it has some crazy bass in it. She just gave me a blank stare. lol


----------



## carp

stitch1 said:


> I picked up Jupiter Ascending from RedBox yesterday but with the crazy storm last night I didn't get a chance to watch it yet. I told my wife I rented us a movie and told her what it is. She asked what it was about and I said I have no idea but it has some crazy bass in it. She just gave me a blank stare. lol



Haha, I've had that exact same conversation.

Let me know what you think, I bet you'll love the bass and tolerate the movie.


----------



## Archaea

My wife typically questions me on every movie we watch. Did you rent this for the bass or the movie.


----------



## NWCgrad

^^^Of course she does, my wife asks and I have a baby bass system compared to you and carp.


----------



## carp

My wife didn't see JA with me so I asked if we could watch it tonight. I got outvoted, we watched Austenland. My testosterone dropped 40 points.


----------



## Reefdvr27

stitch1 said:


> I picked up Jupiter Ascending from RedBox yesterday but with the crazy storm last night I didn't get a chance to watch it yet. I told my wife I rented us a movie and told her what it is. She asked what it was about and I said I have no idea but it has some crazy bass in it. She just gave me a blank stare. lol


 I forgot to ask you guys what was up. I was watching our local news last night and they showed a Tornado cutting through KC. What was up with that? I assume all is well?


----------



## carp

Reefdvr27 said:


> I forgot to ask you guys what was up. I was watching our local news last night and they showed a Tornado cutting through KC. What was up with that? I assume all is well?


A few days ago I heard there was a tornado that hit part of town on the MO side but I don't think it was a very big one. I haven't heard anything about major damage.


----------



## Reefdvr27

carp said:


> A few days ago I heard there was a tornado that hit part of town on the MO side but I don't think it was a very big one. I haven't heard anything about major damage.


Parts of NJ and PA got hit pretty good last week. Power was out in some places for almost a week. Cell phones were down not to mention the damage. I did not loose power, nor did we get the brunt of the storm, but it looked like a Tornado was ready to drop down. Other parts of the state were not so lucky. Here is a vid from a shore town about 75 miles North of me and they had a possible Tornado (Waterspout) captured on vid. There were also several confirmed EF1 Tornado's across the state. Not alot of Tornado's around here, so it is front page news when it happens.


Waterspout or Derecho? I see the clouds turning, but some say it was strait line winds. The clouds in this video are the same as they were here, low and swirling, I thought I was going to see my first Tornado! This video is funny.


----------



## NWCgrad

New Jersey is now part of tornado alley. 

I saw a huge waterspout several years while crossing lake Ponchatrain between New Orleans and Mandeville. Pretty scary when you cannot see land in any direction and your on a bridge in Louisiana (known for corruption and shoddy construction).


----------



## stitch1

My area got hit pretty good. Streets flooded fences knocked down and whatnot. My house was fine but the house next to me ended uo with 6 inches in his basement. My sump pump worked tirelessly throughout the night. 

This was in front of my house.



My mailbox


A block south of me


----------



## stitch1

As for Jupiter Ascending, I thought the bass was great and I wished more movies were mixed like that. Some parts of the movie I was like WTF am I watching. But most of it was pretty good. My wife liked it a lot more than I did. She's like its a love story blah blah.


----------



## desertdome

carp, do you have _The Eagles - Farewell 1 Tour _ Blu-ray? The Dirty Laundry song is probably the most dynamic song I've every heard. I pulled out my Omnimic this weekend and measured the output from about 1 M with my volume at max. I know you saw my post about it. Can you measure in your room from about 1 M from a speaker and see what you get using the stereo PCM track?










I'm curious what you can get with your combination of iNuke amps and JTR 215HT's. 

Note: My Omnimic was calibrated with an SPL Calbrator and had the level set at -0.92dB in Config>Adjust.


----------



## Archaea

stitch1 said:


> My area got hit pretty good. Streets flooded fences knocked down and whatnot. My house was fine but the house next to me ended uo with 6 inches in his basement. My sump pump worked tirelessly throughout the night.
> 
> This was in front of my house.
> 
> 
> 
> My mailbox
> 
> 
> A block south of me


That's nuts......how much rain did your area get in that storm? Your neighborhood is really flat and it looks like you might have got 4-5" with NO draining occuring?!?!?!?


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> carp, do you have _The Eagles - Farewell 1 Tour _ Blu-ray? The Dirty Laundry song is probably the most dynamic song I've every heard. I pulled out my Omnimic this weekend and measured the output from about 1 M with my volume at max. I know you saw my post about it. Can you measure in your room from about 1 M from a speaker and see what you get using the stereo PCM track?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious what you can get with your combination of iNuke amps and JTR 215HT's.
> 
> Note: My Omnimic was calibrated with an SPL Calbrator and had the level set at -0.92dB in Config>Adjust.



After your post I was curious too, but I don't have that disk. I'd be up for doing a comparison if we could find a clip that we both have.


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> After your post I was curious too, but I don't have that disk. I'd be up for doing a comparison if we could find a clip that we both have.


I could send you just the audio file from the Blu-ray. I'll try to do something tonight.

You should get the Blu-ray. It is 190 minutes with incredible sound and video - 30 songs.


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> I could send you just the audio file from the Blu-ray. I'll try to do something tonight.
> 
> You should get the Blu-ray. It is 190 minutes with incredible sound and video - 30 songs.


Ok cool, thanks.


----------



## Pain Infliction

Watch Maggie, carp. Fun 90 min of your life!


----------



## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> Watch Maggie, carp. Fun 90 min of your life!



Will do, I was thinking about renting it on Netflix. Arnold acting?!?!?!


----------



## beastaudio

I second the Eagles Farewell Tour Carp. Not our regular brand of tea, but it really is VERY well done.


----------



## Pain Infliction

carp said:


> Will do, I was thinking about renting it on Netflix. Arnold acting?!?!?!


As long as Netflix doesn't neuter the bass. That is what makes it fun.

Funny thing is, I told my wife that Arnold has the easiest role because he doesn't talk that much in the movie. lol


----------



## wse

stitch1 said:


> My area got hit pretty good. Streets flooded fences knocked down and whatnot. My house was fine but the house next to me ended uo with 6 inches in his basement. My sump pump worked tirelessly throughout the night.
> 
> This was in front of my house.
> 
> 
> 
> My mailbox
> 
> 
> A block south of me


 Sorry to hear about that we need some of your water out here!


----------



## wse

Pain Infliction said:


> Watch Maggie, carp. Fun 90 min of your life!


MAGGIE that was the worst sleeper I ever saw!


----------



## Pain Infliction

wse said:


> MAGGIE that was the worst sleeper I ever saw!


Bass junkies appreciate movies like Maggie. That was why I recommended it. Opinion of movies are clearly subjective and some people liked Jupiter ascending as a movie. I didn't, but enjoyed it for the bass and to look at Mila Kunis.


----------



## beastaudio

Pain Infliction said:


> Bass junkies appreciate movies like Maggie. That was why I recommended it. Opinion of movies are clearly subjective and some people liked Jupiter ascending as a movie. I didn't, but enjoyed it for the bass and to look at Mila Kunis.


I felt like I blacked out several times during the movie with that story-line. There were some serious gaps in what was going down....


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> I second the Eagles Farewell Tour Carp. Not our regular brand of tea, but it really is VERY well done.













I have to disagree with Jeffery on this one, I'm not a huge fan but I like quite a few Eagles songs.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Hey... if you're a home theater junkie from the 2000's... you had to learn to love 'Hotel California'.


----------



## NWCgrad

carp said:


> I have to disagree with Jeffery on this one, I'm not a huge fan but I like quite a few Eagles songs.


Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.


----------



## carp

Going over to a friends house tomorrow bright and early to build a pair of Volt 10 LX's to use as my new side surrounds. Were going to make them very thin, like Matt shows here, the new flat/shallow design he is working on, I believe for a flat pack. I didn't want to use the current flat pack because it is angled and I want to have my sides are rears much lower, closer to ear height so I can make way for atmos ceiling speakers. 













http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=486.msg4462#msg4462


If I like them I'll eventually buy more for Atmos ceiling speakers and for rear surrounds.


----------



## Archaea

Dougs or Kevins?


----------



## NWCgrad

You will like them.


----------



## Reefdvr27

I am thinking about doing something like this or going with the JBLSCS8's for front heights.


----------



## eng-399

Funny thing I was talking to Matt about this exact box today at his house. I like the size of the box to makes it very convenient to place in different areas.


----------



## NWCgrad

That's a nice sized speaker...my coaxial surrounds are freakin huge. When wall mounted my AV preamp sets their XO at 40 Hz, so I guess I could have went smaller.


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> Dougs or Kevins?


Dave's place, he is the friend that help me build my riser and he was at our blind amp meet. He's not a big forum guy but he's built at least 5 or 6 pairs of speakers including the Volts, Tempests, Sentinels....

He has every tool imaginable in his garage and a air compressor the size of my water heater! 

We didn't have time to finish today, all that's left is a little bit more sanding and duratex tomorrow. 


I think I all I did today was slow him down....


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> That's a nice sized speaker...my coaxial surrounds are freakin huge. When wall mounted my AV preamp sets their XO at 40 Hz, so I guess I could have went smaller.


Whoa 40hz!! What are the dimensions?


----------



## d_c

Sweet! Are you going to use those for the rest if you like them? My AVR sets my front Volts at 50 and the rears at 40, so they can bring the business. I have them all set at 80 though.


----------



## NWCgrad

carp said:


> Whoa 40hz!! What are the dimensions?



They are 19" H x 14" W x 11" D and tuned to 53 Hz.


----------



## carp

d_c said:


> Sweet! Are you going to use those for the rest if you like them? My AVR sets my front Volts at 50 and the rears at 40, so they can bring the business. I have them all set at 80 though.


That's my plan right now, use 4 more volts for ceiling speakers. I may keep a pair of the eD's for rear surrounds, I recently moved them from high up on the back of the side walls to closer to ear level and on the back wall. 

I wonder if your volts have so much extension because of how you built them into the walls?


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> They are 19" H x 14" W x 11" D and tuned to 53 Hz.


That's a beast alright! Lately I've read from a few guys that put in larger speakers for surrounds and really liked the result.

I tried it with Kevin's seos speakers with the 300 dollar ae driver (same speakers Doug has) and I a/b'd them with my eD's. The difference was indeed significant. Same placement, and I had to triple check the volume levels just to make sure they were matched and they were. They were on a chair at ear level on the side wall 3 or 4 feet behind my ears. Rear imaging was better, sense of envelopment better, and they just sounded louder which is why I kept checking the spl levels. If the volts don't show a similar improvement I may have to buy them since he has moved on to the jbl 4722's.


----------



## carp

Finished today. Dave did almost all of the critical work, I did stuff you can't screw up. He kept telling me that when I thought I as done sanding that meant I was half way done. 

They turned out awesome, way better than I hoped for. I have them on chairs in my room now, I'm going to use a french cleat to get them as snug to the walls as possible.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Nice! These will be a sweet upgrade for your surrounds. 

I also use metal french cleats to hang all four of my surrounds. Works great and looks clean.


----------



## NWCgrad

The built-in levels make installing French cleats very easy, and I like easy.


----------



## stitch1

Looks great, Carp!


----------



## lukeamdman

Wow, looks awesome!


----------



## carp

Thanks guys! Time to experiment with placement. If only I didn't have this damn pole in the room... eh I guess holding up the house is slightly important...


----------



## Scott Simonian

Yeah... that pole. What an unfortunate position.

I don't remember it's exact position relative to the front row but if you can put that side surround at around 80-90 degrees of the front row then you're good.


----------



## beastaudio

The volts are definitely quite nice  If you need a step up in performance, holler at me about the radians, I have been enjoying them thoroughly


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Yeah... that pole. What an unfortunate position.
> 
> I don't remember it's exact position relative to the front row but if you can put that side surround at around 80-90 degrees of the front row then you're good.


Here is a pic of where the pole is.




You can see where my side surrounds used to be - up high close to the ceiling where the terminals are. I moved my rear surrounds from the back corners (they are still on the wall but not connected to the avr, just been to lazy to take them down) to the back wall and moved them lower down closer to ear level. 

The volts are a few feet behind my head. This is where I had Kevin's SEOS speakers (with the AE driver - anyone know the name of these speakers? Doug if you're reading this you have them) and was so impressed with the surround effects. The problem is that one of the prime seats, the seat just to the left of my seat, gets basically no sound from that left side because of the pole. So, I'm going to try out the volts close to ear level at 90 degrees and see what I think because that will improve that seat right next to me a lot and then compare that to where they are in the picture. 

One thing I'm sure of, I like the speakers lower down closer to ear level than way up next to the ceiling.


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> The volts are definitely quite nice  If you need a step up in performance, holler at me about the radians, I have been enjoying them thoroughly



I was so impressed with Kevin's speakers when I had them in the chairs so if the Volt's don't sound as good I may have to talk to you about your surrounds. Remember how much I liked them at the blind GTG?  Do they have that same sound or did you tweak anything? 

I hope the Volts work for me though, I need all the cash I can scrounge to save up for a new AVR when DTS X gets all hashed out.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> I was so impressed with Kevin's speakers when I had them in the chairs so if the Volt's don't sound as good I may have to talk to you about your surrounds. Remember how much I liked them at the blind GTG?  Do they have that same sound or did you tweak anything?
> 
> I hope the Volts work for me though, I need all the cash I can scrounge to save up for a new AVR when DTS X gets all hashed out.


Those were the beyma coaxial with a stock crossover. Since then I have had a custom XO built out for them, but now they are back-roomed as I bought 8 radian 10" coaxials to go all around for surrounds and atmos speakers. They are cheaper than the beyma's and bigger, so they can extend lower...


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> Here is a pic of where the pole is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see where my side surrounds used to be - up high close to the ceiling where the terminals are. I moved my rear surrounds from the back corners (they are still on the wall but not connected to the avr, just been to lazy to take them down) to the back wall and moved them lower down closer to ear level.
> 
> The volts are a few feet behind my head. This is where I had Kevin's SEOS speakers (with the AE driver - anyone know the name of these speakers? Doug if you're reading this you have them) and was so impressed with the surround effects. The problem is that one of the prime seats, the seat just to the left of my seat, gets basically no sound from that left side because of the pole. So, I'm going to try out the volts close to ear level at 90 degrees and see what I think because that will improve that seat right next to me a lot and then compare that to where they are in the picture.
> 
> One thing I'm sure of, I like the speakers lower down closer to ear level than way up next to the ceiling.



Probably one of the TD12 derivatives...

The location just above your 'And Justice For All' album would be where I would put your side surrounds. Where it is now will sound pretty good for the back row but there might not be enough separation between that location currently and your rear surrounds to get an effective sensation of separation in the front row. Your high back seats up there certainly don't help the situation but I doubt you'll leave them that low.

Don't go too low on the height placement for your surrounds. Make sure they are high enough to clear all the heads and reach the furthest seats. So your left side surround needs a clear path to the far right side seat. Likewise for the other side surround.


----------



## beastaudio

Man, nah.  With my last move to add the atmos, I moved the sides to roughly 3-4" above seat back height and dead on 90 degrees of the front row. With atmos this is working REALLY well so far.


----------



## stitch1

Just a thought but if you are using external amps you could split the signal and do two sets of side surrounds. One for each row.


----------



## d_c

Bwalso designed those and I've never seen an official name, so I usually call mine the catchy name "td12m/SEOS12/dna-360"


----------



## stitch1




----------



## NWCgrad

beastaudio said:


> Man, nah.  With my last move to add the atmos, I moved the sides to roughly 3-4" above seat back height and dead on 90 degrees of the front row. With atmos this is working REALLY well so far.



That is pretty much dead on with my surround position. I need to lower my surround back speakers, but I am meeting resistance from the wife. I will rotate the enclosures so I can get the driver about 4" lower than now. Not sure if 4" will make a difference but what the hell.


Can't wait to read @carp's thoughts on his new surrounds.


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> That is pretty much dead on with my surround position. I need to lower my surround back speakers, but I am meeting resistance from the wife. I will rotate the enclosures so I can get the driver about 4" lower than now. Not sure if 4" will make a difference but what the hell.
> 
> 
> Can't wait to read @carp's thoughts on his new surrounds.


Hmm so you guys haven't found that having the side surrounds at 90 degrees makes the surround effects seem more directional and don't image behind you?

The side surrounds seem to get a lot more content then the rears so are more important IMO. To me it would make sense that the only way to get rear imaging from the side surrounds is to have them a little bit behind you. If you have them directly to the sides then the imaging could easily be in front of you instead of behind you.... right?


----------



## Scott Simonian

Image behind you? That's what the rear surrounds are for, Sheldon. 

This comes up A LOT. Now even more so with Atmos and stuff.

You're right, the side surrounds get more use because mixers are used to using them more than a full suite of four individual surrounds. There is always going to be more 5.1 mixes than greater. Now, some of them sound so good with PL2x that you'd think that they were 7.1. Some not so much. More sorta in between great and not so great.

What I am getting at is personal preference and priorities. Do you want to make your system sound better with 5.1 material or future material that takes advantage of these angles? Me, personally, I'd rather make the system sound best with the better mixes. I'd rather have a distinct side wall imaging and distinct rear wall imaging. When you start putting your sides and rears closer together there is no sense at all that there are separate channels being produced. At that point you might as well just stick with 5.1 sound, imho.

There are more advantages to putting the side surrounds in the 80-90 degree angle than greater than 90 having them behind you. Right now in my room I have my side surrounds WAY ahead of me. Sometimes it doesn't sound great and things sound in front of me but most of the time I am immersed in this gigantic surround field. It's awesome. I have no speakers at my sides yet I hear things distinctly to my side.

You have a great room to experiment, Carp. So go do some experimenting.

Though you if you want my opinion... do not put your side surrounds behind you.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Image behind you? That's what the rear surrounds are for, Sheldon.
> 
> This comes up A LOT. Now even more so with Atmos and stuff.
> 
> You're right, the side surrounds get more use because mixers are used to using them more than a full suite of four individual surrounds. There is always going to be more 5.1 mixes than greater. Now, some of them sound so good with PL2x that you'd think that they were 7.1. Some not so much. More sorta in between great and not so great.
> 
> What I am getting at is personal preference and priorities. Do you want to make your system sound better with 5.1 material or future material that takes advantage of these angles? Me, personally, I'd rather make the system sound best with the better mixes. I'd rather have a distinct side wall imaging and distinct rear wall imaging. When you start putting your sides and rears closer together there is no sense at all that there are separate channels being produced. At that point you might as well just stick with 5.1 sound, imho.
> 
> There are more advantages to putting the side surrounds in the 80-90 degree angle than greater than 90 having them behind you. Right now in my room I have my side surrounds WAY ahead of me. Sometimes it doesn't sound great and things sound in front of me but most of the time I am immersed in this gigantic surround field. It's awesome. I have no speakers at my sides yet I hear things distinctly to my side.
> 
> You have a great room to experiment, Carp. So go do some experimenting.
> 
> Though you if you want my opinion... do not put your side surrounds behind you.



Thanks Scott - love the input!! Very helpful post. I really WANT to put them at 90 or even 80 because that is better for that seat that is blocked by the pole. I'll try to experiment tonight.


----------



## NWCgrad

I have my sides at 80 degrees, 90 to 110 degrees was a no go based on sliding glass door. With the ATMOS demo disc the sound is pretty awesome.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Try that and watch some good 7.1 mixes.

Edge of Tomorrow, Dredd, Maze Runner, Transformers: Dark of the Moon. These are some worth listening to.


----------



## Archaea

5.1 stuff (if you don't upmix) doesn't sound right with the side surrounds in front of the listening position IMO.


Scott will say --- well then ALWAYS upmix. 


butttttttt, before DSU I typically just ran whatever the recorded material was, because upmixing sometimes didn't improve upon the original IMO. In the few movies I've watched with DSU, I think so far it has been good --------------- but that's a very limited perspective of mine so far and I haven't solidified my opinion.





------------------------------------------

With actual 7.1 I don't have much problem with the side surrounds in front of you in the couple theaters I've visited that have that setup. But with a 5.1 system where the rears are in front of the seats --- it doesn't work to well IMO. I'm going to call @stitch1 out on this because his surrounds are a bit in front of him, in his current 5.1 setup and he knows I'm not a big fan of the way that works --- he doesn't have 7 speakers - just five. (I think he plans to move them back in this new room). It's a bit weird with clips I'm familiar with when something I know is supposed to be behind me --- isn't. Also for games it's weird - many games are 5.1 and when a person is supposed to be behind me but he's instead off to my right in front of me a bit (or whatever)... I know you don't game that much - so that may be no issue.


--------




It sure doesn't hurt to experiment, but also doesn't hurt to utilize Dolby's recipe, since that is the configuration the mixers are supposed to be mixing to. 
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...tmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf


----------



## Scott Simonian

Yes. ALWAYS use PL2x if you have more than 5 main speakers. Especially if your side surrounds are at your side, like they should be. 5.1 audio, that's ancient stuff. Get with the times.

Yeah... I mean you too, Jonathan. Movies would be WAY more immersive in your room. Even if you thought it sounded good not using it. It will always sound better using it.

Gravity sounded great at your place but there was nothing going on behind me (other than you and Luke giggling ) and it would be if you had the correct processing on.


----------



## NWCgrad

Per the 7.1 recommendation from the International Telecommunication Union


> If more than two rear/side loudspeakers are used, then the loudspeakers should be disposed symmetrically and at equal intervals on the arc which measures from 60° to 150° from the centre front reference (see Fig. 2).


 [Reference: Recommendation ITU-R BS.775-3 (08/2012), p5]. 


Thus, for 7.1 systems it is fine to have the side surrounds in front of the listening position.

Figure 2:


----------



## carp

Did some listening. I know I don't have to post pics every time I mess with stuff.... but I like posting pics. 






I tried different heights using the chairs, the barstools, and finally the ladder and bar table. 

Here is my thinking about why I like the sides a few feet behind me better. With the rears on I can tell they are there but it's subtle. When I turn on and off the sides the difference is dramatic. So, even with the rear wall speakers behind me they don't do as good of a job at making me think there are sounds behind me as the sides do when they are back a few feet. 

Now, in the 2nd row it's very obvious when I turn on and off the rear surrounds - much better with them on. So, I guess my thinking is that since I can't tell that much if the rear surrounds are on or off from the main LP then I should put the side surrounds where they give me the most immersion in the sweet spot seat. 

So why have the rear surrounds then? Like I said they improve the 2nd row a lot so they are very worthwhile. 

Ok, so that was my thinking before moving the sides to where you see them in the pictures above which is at 90 degrees. 

So.... either the volts are a lot better than the eD's or having them a few feet lower makes a big difference. I'm really liking this. What annoyed me the most about the eD's was concerts. The crowd wasn't around me. It was pinpoint to my right and left. I didn't feel surrounded. 

This is much better (than the up high eD's). I do feel surrounded. Is it as good as having the sides behind me? It's close... I'll have to try some more content. 

I suspect the difference is more the lower position of the side speaker instead of the volts vs. the ed's. The ed's were on axis so it doesn't make sense to me that the speaker change could be the difference because they aren't bad speakers on axis.


----------



## stitch1

@Archaea I have since moved my screen and couch to get my side speakers back where they use to be. It's much better now. You should come give it another shot.


----------



## carp

stitch1 said:


> @Archaea I have since moved my screen and couch to get my side speakers back where they use to be. It's much better now. You should come give it another shot.


Where are the side speakers now?


----------



## Scott Simonian

Carp, I just noticed you have four rear surrounds. Did you always have it like this? If so what content is going to those pairs?


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Carp, I just noticed you have four rear surrounds. Did you always have it like this? If so what content is going to those pairs?


The high up pair were my rear surrounds. They aren't hooked up anymore, I just haven't messed with taking them down yet. I moved my eD side surrounds (they have an upgraded CD) to the back wall for rear surround.


----------



## NWCgrad

carp said:


> Did some listening. I know I don't have to post pics every time I mess with stuff.... but I like posting pics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tried different heights using the chairs, the barstools, and finally the ladder and bar table.
> 
> Here is my thinking about why I like the sides a few feet behind me better. With the rears on I can tell they are there but it's subtle. When I turn on and off the sides the difference is dramatic. So, even with the rear wall speakers behind me they don't do as good of a job at making me think there are sounds behind me as the sides do when they are back a few feet.
> 
> Now, in the 2nd row it's very obvious when I turn on and off the rear surrounds - much better with them on. So, I guess my thinking is that since I can't tell that much if the rear surrounds are on or off from the main LP then I should put the side surrounds where they give me the most immersion in the sweet spot seat.
> 
> So why have the rear surrounds then? Like I said they improve the 2nd row a lot so they are very worthwhile.
> 
> Ok, so that was my thinking before moving the sides to where you see them in the pictures above which is at 90 degrees.
> 
> So.... either the volts are a lot better than the eD's or having them a few feet lower makes a big difference. I'm really liking this. What annoyed me the most about the eD's was concerts. The crowd wasn't around me. It was pinpoint to my right and left. I didn't feel surrounded.
> 
> This is much better (than the up high eD's). I do feel surrounded. Is it as good as having the sides behind me? It's close... I'll have to try some more content.
> 
> I suspect the difference is more the lower position of the side speaker instead of the volts vs. the ed's. The ed's were on axis so it doesn't make sense to me that the speaker change could be the difference because they aren't bad speakers on axis.


Looking good, I wish my space was about 10 ft wider.


----------



## stitch1

carp said:


> Where are the side speakers now?



They are on my side walls in line with the back of my couch. This is where I had them till I made the floating screen and moved my couch back. When Jon came over they were just under foot in front of the MLP. Now they are just behind.


----------



## stitch1

Thats where I like 'em for this room.


----------



## wse

NWCgrad said:


> Per the 7.1 recommendation from the International Telecommunication Union [Reference: Recommendation ITU-R BS.775-3 (08/2012), p5]. ........Thus, for 7.1 systems it is fine to have the side surrounds in front of the listening position.
> 
> Figure 2:


Yes that's what I did as well sit in the middle between the side and rear surrounds


----------



## Hydrazine

Killer setup Carp!


----------



## carp

Thanks Hydrazine! Looking forward to reading about your Danley/JTR comparison!


----------



## jlpowell84

Archaea said:


> I was over at Carp's today for a few hours, and I really liked the JBL 4722, and I understood why everybody seems to like those speakers. They seemed very much worth the money. They sounded great for music. I started thinking surely Sheldon will just sell the JTR, as these JBL sound great.
> Then Sheldon put back the 215RT, and the very first song I knew I liked the 215RT better. The second song confirmed it, and from there it was just more validation.
> 
> There is a clarity with the 215RT that the JBL don't possess. In my experience and opinion of hearing the upper tier JTR speakers many times - - there is a clarity of that compression driver that hasn't been matched by any speaker I've heard yet. That same compression driver is used in the 212HT, which is probably still my personal favorite speaker when considering value for me. (Those 215RT are $, and I'm one that is perfectly comfortable crossing over to a capable sub system for music listening). At any rate - that BMS compression driver that Jeff uses seems to be one of a kind. Or Jeff's crossover work is amazing - or whatever --- perhaps a combination. Whatever it is, the JTR ticks my boxes. As good as the JBL 4722 were. The JTR 215RT were just better. (my subjective opinion)
> 
> Worth the money better? That's for someone else to decide. Unless I heard them back to back I bet I'd think them equitable enough to not make much difference. Hearing them back to back gave me a clear preference, but I'm pretty comfortable in saying I'd be pleased to own the JBL as well. As Sheldon said, speaker appreciation is subjective.
> 
> -------------------
> I'm sure both of these speakers in carp's room best my Mackie C200 for two channel music handedly.
> Luckily, for me, I'm more concerned about cinema use -- and IMO my Mackies don't give up much of anything in cinema use to any theater I've visited, home theater or commercial --- so given the price delta - I'd have a hard time moving up the incremental ladder of performance for the tremendous increase in cost. Or at least that's what I'm telling myself right now.
> But if I was primarily a two channel guy, like Sheldon, I'd be picking up a pair of JTR 212HT or 215RT.


It's these statements that make me want to back off the 4722 and make sure I end up with the BMS CD one way or another. I am really intrigued by the cost of the 4722 and I most likely would roll with 3 of the 1000 series Crown amps and most likely be very happy. I really liked the T8's but they didn't have the magic sauce for me. Swolephile's thread had me thinking, still does, that the 4722's have the magic sauce. Why do I have to live so far away from everyone with decent speakers!!! Does Jeff ever let people "try out" a speaker? Maybe that should be my first step, need to hear the upper end BMS CD.



COACH2369 said:


> I also thank you for your honest review of these speakers.
> 
> Having heard the 212HT's, 215RT/RM and Cat-12's in my room.....then hearing the 4722N's, I would pick the 4722N's as the speaker that best fits what ears like in a speaker.
> 
> We all like different things and that is why is such a great hobby.


Then I go back to statements like these! We need to develop a way to find out the FR response of our ears lol!



carp said:


> Thanks guys. Yeah, it would be pretty boring if everyone had the same taste in sound. Are you guys going to go active with the 4722's? Sounds like it's worth trying out since it isn't that (relatively) expensive.


I think I would. I read one guy got quoted 480 for the 1000 series Crown amp.



Archaea said:


> My wife typically questions me on every movie we watch. Did you rent this for the bass or the movie.


My wife felt the same way through Frankensteins Army lol! She won't ever watch it again!



beastaudio said:


> I felt like I blacked out several times during the movie with that story-line. There were some serious gaps in what was going down....


Sounds like a good time


----------



## Archaea

Sheldon,

Next time I come over I want to listen to Pearl Jam's Present Tense song on your JTR 215RT. I really like that song - I only discovered it recently through Pandora.


----------



## stitch1

Archaea said:


> Sheldon,
> 
> Next time I come over I want to listen to Pearl Jam's Present Tense song on your JTR 215RT. I really like that song - I only discovered it recently through Pandora.



And that right there is why I want the 210's


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> Sheldon,
> 
> Next time I come over I want to listen to Pearl Jam's Present Tense song on your JTR 215RT. I really like that song - I only discovered it recently through Pandora.



Wow, nice find Jonathan!! 

Just finished listening to it. This is a feast for the ears and a great 2 channel demo song. Imaging all over the place along with nice variety - love when the drums kick in. Eddie's voice sounds great as usual. I'm not a huge Pearl Jam fan but definitely respect them and I hadn't heard this song before.


----------



## NWCgrad

What's up with Jonathan finding cool new hard rock songs! Is the end near????


----------



## Archaea

It's a mellower song...

and surprisingly I like the electric guitar sound on this one. 

none of that death metal screaming


----------



## stitch1

Archaea said:


> Sheldon,
> 
> Next time I come over I want to listen to Pearl Jam's Present Tense song on your JTR 215RT. I really like that song - I only discovered it recently through Pandora.



I just checked this out based on your suggestion. Good stuff! I think I might start an Alternative music thread like Carp's Metal Head thread but for suggestions like this.


----------



## carp

stitch1 said:


> I just checked this out based on your suggestion. Good stuff! I think I might start an Alternative music thread like Carp's Metal Head thread but for suggestions like this.


Great idea Tim!


----------



## jlpowell84

Carp, what size screen and seating distance did you have? And what is the spread from Left to Right for you 215's? I know you are a little wider than some (for LR) and like it that way for music. I'm just looking at my new garage today and trying to visualize the layout of the room while still being able to have access to traditional stuff like the water heater, able to change air filter for HVAC and access to electrical panel. I think I can still get a 21x16 room which should be good. I want to give at least 11ft, 12ft preferred, for the JBL's to breath. Plus I want as big of 2:35 screen possible! Do you think a 140" wide 2:35 screen is too big for 12ft seating distance? I have been eyeballing the Horizon screen from Falcon. My goal is to fit all three 4722's behind screen as well as two HP Submersives. Perfect world is if Submersives measure raw well on either side of the 4722's. If not I may be screwed and have to have them out in room. But I am not opposed to having L&R immediately on each sides of the screen if necessary. 

Also I am trying to "assume" what kind of toe in I may need on the 4722's. In your experience what would say is the least toe in you would be able to live with if 4722's had to stay in your room? I know they throw a massive soundstage (horizontally).


----------



## carp

jlpowell84 said:


> Carp, what size screen and seating distance did you have? And what is the spread from Left to Right for you 215's? I know you are a little wider than some (for LR) and like it that way for music. I'm just looking at my new garage today and trying to visualize the layout of the room while still being able to have access to traditional stuff like the water heater, able to change air filter for HVAC and access to electrical panel. I think I can still get a 21x16 room which should be good. I want to give at least 11ft, 12ft preferred, for the JBL's to breath. Plus I want as big of 2:35 screen possible! Do you think a 140" wide 2:35 screen is too big for 12ft seating distance? I have been eyeballing the Horizon screen from Falcon. My goal is to fit all three 4722's behind screen as well as two HP Submersives. Perfect world is if Submersives measure raw well on either side of the 4722's. If not I may be screwed and have to have them out in room. But I am not opposed to having L&R immediately on each sides of the screen if necessary.
> 
> Also I am trying to "assume" what kind of toe in I may need on the 4722's. In your experience what would say is the least toe in you would be able to live with if 4722's had to stay in your room? I know they throw a massive soundstage (horizontally).


My screen is 158" diagonal (2:35:1). I think that means that it is 12' 3" wide, that could be an inch or two off though. My head is 10 feet from the screen in the front row.

So, I think your distance and size of screen you want would easily work since I am closer and my screen is a bit bigger. 

The distance between the speakers is 12' 5" from compression driver to compression driver (in other words from dead center of one speaker to the dead center of the other speaker). 

I toe them in so that they would intersect close to the back of the room. With the 4722's I liked them toed in a little more, just behind my head. However, so much of toe in is personal preference and the room IMO. Do you not have much room to toe them in?

I tried both the 215's and 4722's in the perfect triangle setup (same distance apart as they are from my head) and with both pairs of speakers I liked them better wider for 2 channel music.


----------



## carp

Jason,

I suggest that you play with speaker placement first and get it how you like it for 2 channel (if you like 2 channel music a lot like I do) and then that will help determine what you need to do with your screen size. I'm an audio before video guy though, so you may think differently.


----------



## jlpowell84

carp said:


> My screen is 158" diagonal (2:35:1). I think that means that it is 12' 3" wide, that could be an inch or two off though. My head is 10 feet from the screen in the front row.
> 
> So, I think your distance and size of screen you want would easily work since I am closer and my screen is a bit bigger.
> 
> The distance between the speakers is 12' 5" from compression driver to compression driver (in other words from dead center of one speaker to the dead center of the other speaker).
> 
> I toe them in so that they would intersect close to the back of the room. With the 4722's I liked them toed in a little more, just behind my head. However, so much of toe in is personal preference and the room IMO. Do you not have much room to toe them in?
> 
> I tried both the 215's and 4722's in the perfect triangle setup (same distance apart as they are from my head) and with both pairs of speakers I liked them better wider for 2 channel music.


Ok this is good news. I may try to squeeze up to 11ft viewing distance so my bar behind single row of seating isn't jammed up to back wall. I don't necessarily need amazing audio at the bar and a little boundary gain is fine. I just don't want to bar seats 1.5ft from back wall.

Yes I am a music guy and my goal is to set up so 2 channel stereo flourishes as well as multi channel for movies. So yes I will experiment with placement, once I get them...Of course the room is not finished yet. After drywall goes up it becomes time for some real word measuring for subs and then I can begin to see the light at the end of the tunnel in respect to exact speaker placement. I was just thinking behind the screen as that is a big rule of thumb for movies and having the audio "lock to the screen." But with CD's just outside the borders of the screen I haven't heard any bad complaints. But the big difference for me is that the 4722's are 30" wide! So a CD would be 15"-19" outside of left and right borders. For that reason getting them behind screen is going to be a priority. But with a big enough screen it will be no issue. A 140" wide 2:35 screen gives me 50" to work with not taken up by speakers to find good raw FR response for the Submersives. Speakers are only 17.75 inches deep so if I have 36 inches space behind screen to find good toe in. Of course I will want to fit some acoustical treatments back there but it should be more than enough. I just remember some people don't have the 4722's toed in at all which seems like music blasphemy to me! I know they have a big soundstage but why not point on axis response directly at you?

Looks like I can get 16ft wide on screen wall. Length of room will be 20-21 ft. Lets take 3ft for AT screen/false wall. If figuring 20ft long that leaves 17ft. 11ft viewing distance leaves me 6ft behind seating for bar and chairs. It will have to do and I think it will be fine! I am going to jam an HST18 into the bar so I will need at least 13-15 inches. The regular HT 18 is only 2 inches less mounting difference so I figured I would go for the HST 



carp said:


> Jason,
> 
> I suggest that you play with speaker placement first and get it how you like it for 2 channel (if you like 2 channel music a lot like I do) and then that will help determine what you need to do with your screen size. I'm an audio before video guy though, so you may think differently.


----------



## jlpowell84

But I just remembered you had a HUGE screen and it was way bigger than THX recommendations 

Heck I would go bigger but I don't know if my measly Ben Q W7000 PJ can handle it! I hope it can handle a 140" wide I need to do some more research on screens, light loss, anamorphic lenses, etc. If I could go 150" wide I will!!!


----------



## carp

I know that the hard and fast rule is that it's better to have L and R behind the screen but I've noticed so many times that there are sounds that are supposed to be off the screen to the left or right in a movie and in those cases it's more realistic to have the speakers wider. 

That said...

My room is 17.5 feet wide and I could have just barely fit the 4722's on the outside of my screen with the amount of toe in I wanted. If my room were 16 feet wide it couldn't have been possible.... but your screen will be smaller so it could still work. I'll be interested to see what you come up with. It's fun and at the same time frustrating figuring out the configuration. Everything effects everything.


----------



## carp

jlpowell84 said:


> But I just remembered you had a HUGE screen and it was way bigger than THX recommendations
> 
> Heck I would go bigger but I don't know if my measly Ben Q W7000 PJ can handle it! I hope it can handle a 140" wide I need to do some more research on screens, light loss, anamorphic lenses, etc. If I could go 150" wide I will!!!


If you go 150 wide or larger you should be able to have the speakers behind the screen and they will still be pretty wide. 

Ask Asim about his setup. His screen is a monster and he loves it!! 
@asoofi1


----------



## wse

Those subs are beasts great job what a handy man you are


----------



## carp

wse said:


> Those subs are beasts great job what a handy man you are


Ha, putting together flat packs are about as handy as I get!


----------



## wse

If I ever have a dedicated room big enough I want one of these: 14 feet wide by 6 feet tall 

http://www.carada.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=PROJECTION-SCREEN-C190C


----------



## carp

Hell yeah man. With projectors getting brighter all the time and eventually 4K (hopefully) becoming affordable we will all want to go as big as possible!! 

I'm maxed out in my room though for screen size.


----------



## jlpowell84

carp said:


> If you go 150 wide or larger you should be able to have the speakers behind the screen and they will still be pretty wide.
> 
> Ask Asim about his setup. His screen is a monster and he loves it!!
> @asoofi1


I missed this comment. Yea I will check in with him, I'm pretty sure he has a Panny ae8000 PJ too. If I can do 150" wide I surely will!!! I was thinking of trying to acquire a Panny ae8000 as it has better blacks than mine and the lens auto shift. But meh...I'm not a video snob and can wait a couple years I guess. I really should though, as it would only cost another $800 or so after "getting what I can" for my Ben Q. I should by a piece of spandex, wait what did I just say? Joking, but put it up to see how it does with such a big 2:35 screen size. If it can handle it surely the Falcon AT material can.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> Hell yeah man. With projectors getting brighter all the time and eventually 4K (hopefully) becoming affordable we will all want to go as big as possible!!
> 
> I'm maxed out in my room though for screen size.


Hey, Sheldon. I got a new projector a week ago. Starts with an "S" and ends with "ony HW40ES". 

Looks great! Brighter than I thought it would be. Still recommend it to you as it looks great but without a motorized lens system it might still be a chore for you.


----------



## jlpowell84

Scott Simonian said:


> Hey, Sheldon. I got a new projector a week ago. Starts with an "S" and ends with "ony HW40ES".
> 
> Looks great! Brighter than I thought it would be. Still recommend it to you as it looks great but without a motorized lens system it might still be a chore for you.


This one is on my radar as well. Great turning point of cost vs. performance.


----------



## Scott Simonian

jlpowell84 said:


> This one is on my radar as well. Great turning point of cost vs. performance.


Imho, it's the best-in-class for the


----------



## carp

Nice Scott!! If I had it to do over again I would have bought the Sony especially after seeing how good it looked in Ryan's room. I'm just glad that I don't seem to notice poor black levels too much since that is the big weakness of my Epson.


----------



## jlpowell84

UGHGH! OKAY maybe the guy who wanted my Ben Q W7000 for 800ish will still want it. Then I can snag the 40es for not too much more. I swear I seen it on B&H Photo for 1399 recently.


----------



## carp

Now Playing:











Now Drinking:











Mine has more ice... and less Coke.


----------



## Scott Simonian




----------



## lbrown105

captain and coke is the most cost effective upgrade. enjoying one myself with some Disturbed!


----------



## carp

Their new album has some good songs on it, just heard it for the first time the other day.


----------



## NWCgrad

Sabbath and rum...makes for a great time! I just ordered the new Maiden double album. They were playing tracks off it all week on Liquid Metal and sounded good (singing is not as good as it once was tho).


----------



## lbrown105

Great concept, we start matching which cocktails go best with specific bands! Sounds like a good GTG format. 

I just realized we are in Carp's basement thread not his heavy metal thread. I am sure at time they are very similar.


----------



## carp

lbrown105 said:


> Great concept, we start matching which cocktails go best with specific bands! Sounds like a good GTG format.
> 
> I just realized we are in Carp's basement thread not his heavy metal thread. I am sure at time they are very similar.


Haha, yeah I posted pretty much the same thing yesterday afternoon in the metal thread. I was feeling pretty good with the music cranking.


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> Sabbath and rum...makes for a great time! I just ordered the new Maiden double album. They were playing tracks off it all week on Liquid Metal and sounded good (singing is not as good as it once was tho).



I heard a lot of that too driving back and forth to work. I like the 18 minute song and I'm sure it's all pretty good at worst. 

Modern Maiden does tend to get a little Spinal Tapish but I don't really mean that as a negative, I still like it. They can't seem to match their first "reunion" album from back in 2000 though, I LOVED Brave New World.


----------



## darrellh44

Hi Carp,

I just read your posts in the DDRC-88a thread and wanted to see what you thought about an idea for a near-field setup. I have two recliners as the MLP (similar to what you have in your photos) with a small end table between them. What do you think about replacing the end table with a dual-opposed sub with drivers facing each recliner from the sides instead of the rear? Unfortunately, my unpaid interior designer won't go for big boxes behind the recliners. 

The drivers could be positioned in the upper back corners of the sub where they would be closest to my head when reclined. My biggest problem is I can only afford about 4 cuft for both drivers which probably limits me to 12" drivers (and happen to have a pair of RSS315HFs sitting in my closet anyway). Do you think it's worth the effort for dual 12"ers?

Thanks,
Darrell


----------



## carp

darrellh44 said:


> Hi Carp,
> 
> I just read your posts in the DDRC-88a thread and wanted to see what you thought about an idea for a near-field setup. I have two recliners as the MLP (similar to what you have in your photos) with a small end table between them. What do you think about replacing the end table with a dual-opposed sub with drivers facing each recliner from the sides instead of the rear? Unfortunately, my unpaid interior designer won't go for big boxes behind the recliners.
> 
> The drivers could be positioned in the upper back corners of the sub where they would be closest to my head when reclined. My biggest problem is I can only afford about 4 cuft for both drivers which probably limits me to 12" drivers (and happen to have a pair of RSS315HFs sitting in my closet anyway). Do you think it's worth the effort for dual 12"ers?
> 
> Thanks,
> Darrell


Hey Darrell - unfortunately I don't think this will work quite as well. The thing about having the driver right behind you is that you can't localize the bass. If it was to one side or the other localization becomes a problem. Also you will probably feel the bass more on one side of your body than the other.

HOWEVER!!! Give it a try!! I'm a much bigger believer in trying things out then by just doing things by the book and expecting that things will work as they should in theory! 

A 12 inch driver is awfully small for nearfield...

No, no, you can use 18 inch drivers in 4 cu. ft. if it is a sealed sub!!! You could buy a flatpack from diysoundgroup here:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/sealed-subwoofer-flatpacks/4-sub-flat-pack.html

and get a driver from SI here:

http://stereointegrity.com/product/ht18-18-subwoofer/

Power it with this:

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-NU3...728&sr=8-1&keywords=behringer+inuke+nu3000dsp

and you'd be in heaven!!

You could power 2 of the SI 18's with that one amp. I'd get the D2 wired version and wire them separately to each channel. My nearfield 18 is 4 cu ft and it's powered by one channel of the inuke 3000 and my 8 subs up front are all 4 cu ft powered by the Cerwin Vega CV 5000. 

I hope this helps!


Sheldon


----------



## carp

@Scott Simonian

Hey Scott, any additional advice for Darrell? ^


----------



## darrellh44

The end table I'm replacing is tall and deep, but rather thin - only 13". I could probably go up to 15" or 16" between recliners, but anymore than that, it starts to impact the rest of the furniture in the room. The skinny depth of the box was another reason I was limited to 12" dual-opposed drivers, unless I offset the drivers to accommodate their depth.

Could you do me a big favor and try temporarily moving your rear sub to the side to see how it does? What cutoff frequency are you using?

Thanks,
Darrell


----------



## carp

darrellh44 said:


> The end table I'm replacing is tall and deep, but rather thin - only 13". I could probably go up to 15" or 16" between recliners, but anymore than that, it starts to impact the rest of the furniture in the room. The skinny depth of the box was another reason I was limited to 12" dual-opposed drivers, unless I offset the drivers to accommodate their depth.
> 
> Could you do me a big favor and try temporarily moving your rear sub to the side to see how it does? What cutoff frequency are you using?
> 
> Thanks,
> Darrell


I cross it at 80hz for movies and usually 100hz for music. I'd move it but that would be a big project. The wiring is hidden and secured under the seats and I'd have to undo all of that. Sorry!! 

I've had my subs that are now up front all around the room including firing into the sides of my seat. It didn't give me near the feel of having a driver at my back.


----------



## Archaea

darrellh44 said:


> Hi Carp,
> 
> I just read your posts in the DDRC-88a thread and wanted to see what you thought about an idea for a near-field setup. I have two recliners as the MLP (similar to what you have in your photos) with a small end table between them. What do you think about replacing the end table with a dual-opposed sub with drivers facing each recliner from the sides instead of the rear? Unfortunately, my unpaid interior designer won't go for big boxes behind the recliners.
> 
> The drivers could be positioned in the upper back corners of the sub where they would be closest to my head when reclined. My biggest problem is I can only afford about 4 cuft for both drivers which probably limits me to 12" drivers (and happen to have a pair of RSS315HFs sitting in my closet anyway). Do you think it's worth the effort for dual 12"ers?
> 
> Thanks,
> Darrell



Subs to the side are audible unless you use a low crossover point on the sub. (artificially low - like 60hz)


Then they'll be tactile from the side, and you'll feel like the bass is stronger on one side than the other.


I agree with carp - from my experimentation - directly behind the seats is the only place a nearfield sub should be. I tried 10" subs nearfield and they were incredible when elevated, but on the floor they didn't do much of anything. 18" on the floor work. A friend of ours, Luke Kamp, suggested he'd read somewhere that the distance from the nearfield driver cone to the flesh should be no more than the diameter of the cone for best effect. I think that holds true. 12" gives you one foot distance, 18" gives you 18" distance from the cone to your back for the tactile effect to be most effective.


----------



## darrellh44

Thanks Carp and Archaea. It doesn't sound like 12" side subs will be worth the effort. I may have to fire my interior decorator instead.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> @Scott Simonian
> 
> Hey Scott, any additional advice for Darrell? ^


Huh? Oh ... umm.. Nah I think you got it. 

It really depends on what he is trying to get. Subs located "nearfield" can be there to smooth out the bass and not for the intent on increasing perceived tactile response like several of us are doing. So which is it?

If he wants to have subs nearby to improve response then he can do pretty much whatever.

If he wants to maximize the tactile transfer of the bass response then I'd agree you need the driver to be extremely close.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Huh? Oh ... umm.. Nah I think you got it.
> 
> It really depends on what he is trying to get. *Subs located "nearfield" can be there to smooth out the bass and not for the intent on increasing perceived tactile response like several of us are doing.* So which is it?
> 
> If he wants to have subs nearby to improve response then he can do pretty much whatever.
> 
> If he wants to maximize the tactile transfer of the bass response then I'd agree you need the driver to be extremely close.



Thanks man. 

And then others use nearfield subs and that's it, nowhere else in the room. I was told in another thread by an AVS no-it-all that this is the real use of the term nearfield for subs. That's fine and all but obviously not the only way to do it and not what I would want.


----------



## darrellh44

Hey guys,

I'm still waffling on the idea of a 12" dual opposed sub between recliners. I can improve the positioning by arranging the wires so I could swing it around behind one of the recliners for optimized listening when I'm alone. All other times it would be in the WAF position between the recliners.

One of the most appealing things to me about near-field subs is that you get great bass at the MLP without flooding the rest of the house with low bass. My room is fairly well isolated for mid to upper ranges, but low bass just goes thru everything. Originally I was planning on just building a pair of Cinema F12s for the front wall, but now I'd like to do both. When I'm not worried about disturbing the rest of the house, I can run all 3 subs to help with modal smoothing, and also lower the low-pass cutoff on the near-field sub to reduce localization. The near-field sub should also help out the F12s with response below 20 Hz. The question is, I've read that it's not a good idea to mix horn subs with sealed subs. Do y'all have any opinions on that?

Thanks,
Darrell


----------



## carp

darrellh44 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm still waffling on the idea of a 12" dual opposed sub between recliners. I can improve the positioning by arranging the wires so I could swing it around behind one of the recliners for optimized listening when I'm alone. All other times it would be in the WAF position between the recliners.
> 
> One of the most appealing things to me about near-field subs is that you get great bass at the MLP without flooding the rest of the house with low bass. My room is fairly well isolated for mid to upper ranges, but low bass just goes thru everything. Originally I was planning on just building a pair of Cinema F12s for the front wall, but now I'd like to do both. When I'm not worried about disturbing the rest of the house, I can run all 3 subs to help with modal smoothing, and also lower the low-pass cutoff on the near-field sub to reduce localization. The near-field sub should also help out the F12s with response below 20 Hz. The question is, I've read that it's not a good idea to mix horn subs with sealed subs. Do y'all have any opinions on that?
> 
> Thanks,
> Darrell



I've heard the opposite, that a horn sub acts like a sealed sub below tuning so they will blend nicely. d_c has horns and a sealed sub and it all blends well.


----------



## Scott Simonian

No. You don't want to use any output below Fb even in a sealed, front-loaded horn like the F20's or THT.

Within their usable bandwidth they will still be susceptible to phase changes as any resonant alignment would. They will not integrate into a system like two sealed enclosures would.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> No. You don't want to use any output below Fb even in a sealed, front-loaded horn like the F20's or THT.
> 
> Within their usable bandwidth they will still be susceptible to phase changes as any resonant alignment would. They will not integrate into a system like two sealed enclosures would.


Is Doug "doing it wrong"?


----------



## Scott Simonian

I never said anything about Doug's system.

I was replying to what you said, "I've heard the opposite, that a horn sub acts like a sealed sub below tuning so they will blend nicely." which is incorrect.

It is correct that a front-loaded horn with a sealed backwave will behave like a sealed sub. However, you do NOT want to use this output below Fb. You should highpass out this bandwidth below a horns Fb.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> I never said anything about Doug's system.
> 
> I was replying to what you said, "I've heard the opposite, that a horn sub acts like a sealed sub below tuning so they will blend nicely." which is incorrect.
> 
> It is correct that a front-loaded horn with a sealed backwave will behave like a sealed sub. However, you do NOT want to use this output below Fb. You should highpass out this bandwidth below a horns Fb.



Oh, I see.


----------



## darrellh44

Scott Simonian said:


> No. You don't want to use any output below Fb even in a sealed, front-loaded horn like the F20's or THT.
> 
> 
> Within their usable bandwidth they will still be susceptible to phase changes as any resonant alignment would. They will not integrate into a system like two sealed enclosures would.


I was talking about the near-field sub helping out below 20 Hz, not the F12s on the front wall. I already have a couple of BASH 300w plate amps for the F12s. They have a built-in high-pass at 20 Hz.

I would also like to get plate amps to power the dual-opposed (near-field) sub, but I'm not sure if any go below 20 Hz. Using plate amps with a wireless RCA adaptor would help to reduce wiring and make the sub easier to move. I can also use the volume control on the plate amps to match levels, and then EQ all of the subs together with an 88a that's on the way.

On the F12 phase changes in their usable bandwidth, is this anything the 88a could help with if the horn and sealed subs were processed on separate channels?


----------



## Scott Simonian

Absolutely. Using a powerful EQ system along with common sense and good placement will allow sealed and resonant systems to play along well together.


----------



## NWCgrad

carp said:


> I heard a lot of that too driving back and forth to work. I like the 18 minute song and I'm sure it's all pretty good at worst.
> 
> Modern Maiden does tend to get a little Spinal Tapish but I don't really mean that as a negative, I still like it. They can't seem to match their first "reunion" album from back in 2000 though, I LOVED Brave New World.


 
Amazon finally delivered Book of Souls, it is pretty dam good! Doesn't sound anything like the last album, is more of the vibe of Peace of Mind. Just noticed as I entered this, I have been quoted 666 times...coincidence or fate.



Sabbath is coming to KC on 2/17 @ Sprint Center. Final tour! New York City (2/25, Madison Square Garden) is the closest they are coming to my area. Perhaps I can convince Reefdvr27, Gorilla83, beastaudio, or asoofi1 that they need to get their metal on!


----------



## Signs

NWCgrad said:


> Amazon finally delivered Book of Souls, it is pretty dam good! Doesn't sound anything like the last album, is more of the vibe of Peace of Mind. Just noticed as I entered this, I have been quoted 666 times...coincidence or fate.
> 
> 
> 
> Sabbath is coming to KC on 2/17 @ Sprint Center. Final tour! New York City (2/25, Madison Square Garden) is the closest they are coming to my area. Perhaps I can convince Reefdvr27, Gorilla83, beastaudio, or asoofi1 that they need to get their metal on!


667 now 


Saw Sabbath twice last year , very good , cant stand iron maiden though .


----------



## NWCgrad

Signs said:


> 667 now
> 
> 
> Saw Sabbath twice last year , very good , cant stand iron maiden though .



I can see people don't like Maiden, they have a love'm or hate'm type of sound. I am so jealous that you saw Sabbath twice! I have not seen them, was planning to go to a show in 1980 before Ozzy got fired and the tour cancelled. Sad freakin day that was.


----------



## beastaudio

NWCgrad said:


> Amazon finally delivered Book of Souls, it is pretty dam good! Doesn't sound anything like the last album, is more of the vibe of Peace of Mind. Just noticed as I entered this, I have been quoted 666 times...coincidence or fate.
> 
> 
> 
> Sabbath is coming to KC on 2/17 @ Sprint Center. Final tour! New York City (2/25, Madison Square Garden) is the closest they are coming to my area. Perhaps I can convince Reefdvr27, Gorilla83, beastaudio, or asoofi1 that they need to get their metal on!



Maiden likes Asheville and has been through here a couple times. I will hope they announce a little "small venue" stop here which is normally how it works, while travelling from one large city to the next.


----------



## NWCgrad

beastaudio said:


> Maiden likes Asheville and has been through here a couple times. I will hope they announce a little "small venue" stop here which is normally how it works, while travelling from one large city to the next.


That would be pretty cool, maiden is coming to the US early 2016.


----------



## d_c

I'm looking forward to Sabbath - I already have the whole day off. We are going to be like the dude in the parking lot in the beginning of Through the Never. It would be a little different standing on the roof of your minivan yelling at the top of our lungs. I better bring my truck instead.


----------



## NWCgrad

Looking at cost differential in tickets between NYC and KC I can nearly fly out to KC for the show cheaper. By the time I add gas and parking it probably would be cheaper. The VIP + sound check tickets are pretty sweet.


----------



## lbrown105

Scott Simonian said:


> I never said anything about Doug's system.
> 
> I was replying to what you said, "I've heard the opposite, that a horn sub acts like a sealed sub below tuning so they will blend nicely." which is incorrect.
> 
> It is correct that a front-loaded horn with a sealed backwave will behave like a sealed sub. However, you do NOT want to use this output below Fb. You should highpass out this bandwidth below a horns Fb.


 Scott, just seeing if I understand this correctly. Are you saying with a sealed FL horn like the OS you should high pass below the port tune? I have found with the OS that if I do not run a HPF I still get extension as if I were running a single sealed 18" sub per OS in the room. In my case I have three so below approx. 20hz it is like having 3 18's in the room (above 22hz its like having about 18 of them ) We played the edge of tomorrow scene at reference with a +15dB (@25-40hz) curve and while I can't say that I know the exact SPL we achieved I can say that based on my sweeps the 10hz value is about 10dB down from the 22hz value. We never saw the clip light or heard any bad noises from the subs. I have found a lot of value in not running HPF on these horns.


----------



## beastaudio

lbrown105 said:


> Scott, just seeing if I understand this correctly. Are you saying with a sealed FL horn like the OS you should high pass below the port tune? I have found with the OS that if I do not run a HPF I still get extension as if I were running a single sealed 18" sub per OS in the room. In my case I have three so below approx. 20hz it is like having 3 18's in the room (above 22hz its like having about 18 of them ) We played the edge of tomorrow scene at reference with a +15dB (@25-40hz) curve and while I can't say that I know the exact SPL we achieved I can say that based on my sweeps the 10hz value is about 10dB down from the 22hz value. We never saw the clip light or heard any bad noises from the subs. I have found a lot of value in not running HPF on these horns.


Below the knee of a FL horn like the OS, you are going to get some distortion when not running a HPF, but IMO it's not nearly as important as running a HPF on a tapped horn such as the GH, Othorn, etc. These don't protect the driver via a sealed enclosure, so you can easily achieve over excursion if you aren't careful.


----------



## Scott Simonian

lbrown105 said:


> Scott, just seeing if I understand this correctly. Are you saying with a sealed FL horn like the OS you should high pass below the port tune? I have found with the OS that if I do not run a HPF I still get extension as if I were running a single sealed 18" sub per OS in the room. In my case I have three so below approx. 20hz it is like having 3 18's in the room (above 22hz its like having about 18 of them ) We played the edge of tomorrow scene at reference with a +15dB (@25-40hz) curve and while I can't say that I know the exact SPL we achieved I can say that based on my sweeps the 10hz value is about 10dB down from the 22hz value. We never saw the clip light or heard any bad noises from the subs. I have found a lot of value in not running HPF on these horns.


So here's the thing... a sealed backwave FLH will behave a bit like a sealed sub under the Fb of the horn system. In theory this sounds like a really good thing. Get extension and horn output? Where do I sign up?!? Here's the problem. A FLH like that is literally a distortion generator used in this way. What, how?!?! From the Fb and above it is acting like a horn and producing a great amount of output with "amplified" sound within the bandwidth. Below Fb it may behave like a sealed sub. The problem lies when you want to produce output outside the bandwidth of the horn. Let's just say you got the 10hz part of the EoT opening. Well, included with that 10hz is a 3rd harmonic at 30hz which plays along with the 10hz part. The 10hz is not being "boosted" by the horn bandwidth but the 3rd harmonic is. When the harmonics are louder and amplified then you are indeed experiences >100% THD. I know, it sucks cuz the whole thing sounded like such a great idea on paper. 

But hey... if it sounds good to you then I can not argue against that.


I would filter out this extra bandwidth that imho isn't useful. I'd use a real sealed subwoofer system or LLT for this bandwidth.

Though like @beastaudio said, it IS more important on a tapped horn because below Fb it will act like a typical resonant alignment and the active driver will 'unload' below Fb so for sure those need a HPF. The FLH doesn't need to use one to protect it from mechanical overdrive but it should still use one to filter out bandwidth that is outside it's operating range.


----------



## Archaea

Scott,

In reality do the harmonics matter that much, unless you are a absoute purist? Odd order harmonics are sometimes even favorable from what I've read. Isn't the bass boost on some of the dsp's like the Peavey unit based on creating artificial harmonics? 
It's probably one of those things you shouldn't stress over @lbrown105. It's not like you are mixing sealed and horns. 

I guess we'll find out more when Ricci measures the Orbit Shifter LFU at some point soon.

For my part - I feel like this - If someone told me I could trade my eight sealed subs (which are flat to 7hz in my room) out for 3 orbit shifters at no cost - even steven trade ---- personally knowing what the Orbit Shifter is capable of - I'd make that change without thinking twice. If in doubt - it'd be easy to form your own opinion on the value of the HPF by implementing a HPF with a mic2200, reckhorn b2, or equivalent and then see if you care one way or the other in some a/b auditions.

There's some interesting discussion here in this old thread on the matter.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...iver-excursion-below-knee-horn-vs-sealed.html


----------



## Scott Simonian

Heh. Yes, yes of course it matters. You don't have to be a "purist" to want to avoid adding additional harmonic distortion in a frequency range that is easily audible and especially when it is avoidable.

Odd harmonics are bad, even are okay. Most like 2nd harmonics. Most find 3rd and 5th harmonics highly objectionable.

No, it's not like mixing sealed and horns because he isn't. It's just a horn.

Hey, you want to do things your own way go right ahead. I won't stop you or complain. Keep the extension but also keep the added distortion. 

Some people like distortion. Unfortunately most take offense to it being pointed out that they like distortion.


Jonathan, please don't turn my comments into a "but the OS is awesome, why you hate on it" situation. I have no feelings towards it or what either of you guys like. But in reality where all of us live, a FLH type "subwoofer" WILL generate additional distortion when the fundamental is below it's main bandwidth. That is the truth whether you like it or not. That is how these things work. It's physics. You can't change that but you can alleviate it by using a filter.


----------



## stitch1

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/audibility-of-distortion-at-bass


I came across this just yesterday. It seems relevant to your discussion.


----------



## lukeamdman

Scott Simonian said:


> So here's the thing... a sealed backwave FLH will behave a bit like a sealed sub under the Fb of the horn system. In theory this sounds like a really good thing. Get extension and horn output? Where do I sign up?!? Here's the problem. A FLH like that is literally a distortion generator used in this way. What, how?!?! From the Fb and above it is acting like a horn and producing a great amount of output with "amplified" sound within the bandwidth. Below Fb it may behave like a sealed sub. The problem lies when you want to produce output outside the bandwidth of the horn. Let's just say you got the 10hz part of the EoT opening. Well, included with that 10hz is a 3rd harmonic at 30hz which plays along with the 10hz part. The 10hz is not being "boosted" by the horn bandwidth but the 3rd harmonic is. When the harmonics are louder and amplified then you are indeed experiences >100% THD. I know, it sucks cuz the whole thing sounded like such a great idea on paper.
> 
> But hey... if it sounds good to you then I can not argue against that.
> 
> 
> I would filter out this extra bandwidth that imho isn't useful. I'd use a real sealed subwoofer system or LLT for this bandwidth.
> 
> Though like @beastaudio said, it IS more important on a tapped horn because below Fb it will act like a typical resonant alignment and the active driver will 'unload' below Fb so for sure those need a HPF. The FLH doesn't need to use one to protect it from mechanical overdrive but it should still use one to filter out bandwidth that is outside it's operating range.





Archaea said:


> Scott,
> 
> In reality do the harmonics matter that much, unless you are a absoute purist? Odd order harmonics are sometimes even favorable from what I've read. Isn't the bass boost on some of the dsp's like the Peavey unit based on creating artificial harmonics?
> It's probably one of those things you shouldn't stress over @lbrown105. It's not like you are mixing sealed and horns.
> 
> I guess we'll find out more when Ricci measures the Orbit Shifter LFU at some point soon.
> 
> For my part - I feel like this - If someone told me I could trade my eight sealed subs (which are flat to 7hz in my room) out for 3 orbit shifters at no cost - even steven trade ---- personally knowing what the Orbit Shifter is capable of - I'd make that change without thinking twice. If in doubt - it'd be easy to form your own opinion on the value of the HPF by implementing a HPF with a mic2200, reckhorn b2, or equivalent and then see if you care one way or the other in some a/b auditions.
> 
> There's some interesting discussion here in this old thread on the matter.
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...iver-excursion-below-knee-horn-vs-sealed.html


You don't need to wait for the LFU to be tested to see the distortion behavior of a FLH. Take a peek at the OS Pro.

The excursion minimum looks to be around ~33hz, and below that you can see distortion rapidly rise. This is all with a 25hz HPF as well, so the distortion down low would be WAYYYY higher without that to reduce cone excursion below the knee.


----------



## Archaea

Scott, I wasn't trying to attack you at all, or turn this into an argument - I must have come across way stronger than anything I anticipated. I'm sorry.

I remembered it backwards on the harmonics. You are correct - even order harmonics are preferable in the world of harmonics. I apologize.

I'm just remembering from the 2012 blind subwoofer meet when we had a couple Orbit Shifters and we intentionally played scenes like BHD Irene, and WOTW, and others on the orbit shifters to see how they did at the deepest content, and I don't remember them doing much of anything audibly astonishing or audibly negative with the deep 7hz content in BHD, or the other deepest of deep frequency clips we intentionally chose to play. That's all. I'm just saying - from personal experience, I personally didn't find any harmonics of the lowest stuff easily identifiably out of place as compared to some of the other sealed contenders we listened to that day (dual submersives, dual Cap s1, quad mfw-15, *cough* Chase 18.1, etc) which played through that same demo material.

I certainly can hear 30hz content. With test tones at a lowish, reasonable volume I can hear reliably down to 16 or 17hz. Maybe I didn't know what to listen for at that point. I was still pretty green in the hobby space in 2012. I can only say I really liked what I heard.

A buddy, jedimastergrant, in KC has an Orbit Shifter LFU and I've heard it in his room and in carps room both, and man it's a capable sub as a single unit, another buddy, cvinfig, has an Orbit Shifter in KC as well and I've heard it a couple times in his room. Color me impressed on each audition. I've never heard one with an HPF, vs without. Perhaps Grant would be willing to test some with the local KC group on the subject so we could hear the difference the next time we get together for a movie night.


----------



## Scott Simonian

No worries. I didn't take any offense to your last post. Just wanted to be clear that there is reality and perception. Whether or not one finds the THD objectionable is one thing but that doesn't stop the nature of the alignment from doing what it does. That's all.

Yeah, I was at Grant's house when I came out there. His was the first room on the crawl (for our group anyway). Yup. The OS can get loud for one sub.


----------



## desertdome

Archaea said:


> I've never heard one with an HPF, vs without.


I know you're talking about an external HPF, but the Orbit Shifter LFU will already have the necessary filtering and limiting in its DSP.


----------



## lukeamdman

desertdome said:


> I know you're talking about an external HPF, but the Orbit Shifter LFU will already have the necessary filtering and limiting in its DSP.


Jeff doesn't apply a HPF on the OS.


----------



## desertdome

lukeamdman said:


> Jeff doesn't apply a HPF on the OS.


I said filtering and limiting since I wasn't sure.  A limiter like the subwoofer limiter in JRiver will only roll off the low end when excursion or distortion (however you decide to use it) become a factor. It also doesn't cause a phase shift like a HPF. Its possible that the DSP amp in the OS has a similar capability without using a constantly-in-place HPF. Its also possible that there isn't one since I don't really know.


----------



## lbrown105

Great discussion guys, appreciate learning new stuff. I guess I need to find out if an external HpF is needed consider any DSP settings that may be in play. In any case learning more about FLH is good! I do love these things.


----------



## Jeff Permanian

lukeamdman said:


> You don't need to wait for the LFU to be tested to see the distortion behavior of a FLH. Take a peek at the OS Pro.
> 
> The excursion minimum looks to be around ~33hz, and below that you can see distortion rapidly rise. This is all with a 25hz HPF as well, so the distortion down low would be WAYYYY higher without that to reduce cone excursion below the knee.



Yes, it's true that the distortion rises below tuning however the Orbit Shifter PRO still managed 98.9db at 20hz with only 16% thd and the LFU is tuned almost an octive lower.


----------



## Jeff Permanian

lbrown105 said:


> Great discussion guys, appreciate learning new stuff. I guess I need to find out if an external HpF is needed consider any DSP settings that may be in play. In any case learning more about FLH is good! I do love these things.


If you want to keep distortion to a minimum then a limiter on the lowend would be the way to go. Using a highpass filter, you'd loose quite a bit of output that is available below tuning.


----------



## Archaea

I found this comparison interesting when comparing distortion numbers between the JTR PRO FLH and a popular sealed driver as well as the discussion on 3rd order harmonics. 
*cough* - friendly poke @Scott Simonian - *cough*


The OS Pro tested is tuned to mid high 30hz range I believe. 


It will be interesting to see the numbers on the Orbit Shifter LFU which is tuned lower and is used by most people for home theater application.


----------



## Archaea

To quote another buddy




popalock said:


> Sealed.


----------



## lukeamdman

One of these days boys...one of these days Jonathan will finally just buy some LFUs already and all will be right with the world. I can feel it


----------



## Jeff Permanian

lukeamdman said:


> One of these days boys...one of these days Jonathan will finally just buy some LFUs already and all will be right with the world. I can feel it


I'm pretty sure his wife wouldn't allow it after the last time they were in his house.


----------



## Archaea

Jeff Permanian said:


> I'm pretty sure his wife wouldn't allow it after the last time they were in his house.


My wfe gives that statement a +1. I laughed when I read this, she asked what I was laughing about. I read the post aloud. Seems, apparently, 3 years later she's still sore about that.  I certainly heard an earfull about breaking out the tile floor grout in the kitchen above the theater room with the Orbit Shifter pair back in 2012.

Frankly, I was impressed, and can't figure out why she was not.


----------



## NWCgrad

Archaea said:


> My wfe gives that statement a +1. I laughed when I read this, she asked what I was laughing about. I read the post aloud. Seems, apparently, 3 years later she's still sore about that.  I certainly heard an earfull about breaking out the tile floor grout in the kitchen above the theater room with the Orbit Shifter pair back in 2012.
> 
> Frankly, I was impressed, and can't figure out why she was not.


This post deserves my first ever LOL.


----------



## carp

Ha, I take over a week off from checking the forum and it seems the discussions are better when I'm not here.


----------



## NWCgrad

Dude you can't take a week off AVS. Right now I am listening to tell Opeth Pale Communion Blu Ray with DSU to engage Atmos speakers. Sound is freaking awesome, just wished there was still some metal in the music tbough.


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> Dude you can't take a week off AVS. Right now I am listening to tell Opeth Pale Communion Blu Ray with DSU to engage Atmos speakers. Sound is freaking awesome, just wished there was still some metal in the music tbough.


How are you liking DSU overall for music? Does it work well for 2 channel music?


----------



## NWCgrad

I really like it for some music but not all. I think the better the recording the more I like using DSU. If the microphones captured the ambience of the recording studio - or the engineers added sonic effect with phase or other stuff I don't understand - then it sounds great.


----------



## d_c

carp said:


> Ha, I take over a week off from checking the forum and it seems the discussions are better when I'm not here.



Oh gawd, this guy again


----------



## jlpowell84

Carp, Scott or other bass heads, I was curious about DIY subs. So we all know Mark and Jeff send out their subs EQ'd with the DSP capability to a range of +-3db from whatever range they advertise. We get them in a room and the room does it's thing, we do our best with placement, bass trapping and lastly more electronic EQ. I was just curious about DIY subs as people don't take them outdoors to EQ then take them to the room. So is it just build, put in room and EQ? And with ID subs having kinda "double" electronic EQ does that have negative side effects?

BTW it's looking like the Submersives are gonna sell. So I'm think dual horns up front with a 18" driver like the UXL or similar. 

And for near field bass...How would you respond to someone saying, "I think near field bass doesn't give the best overall bass "sound" or "quality." A room that has subs at numerous locations ALL AROUND the MLP in my opinion gives the best "quality" bass."

Hell I bet two horns up front and a ported beast behind my single row of seats may be all the bass I would ever need! Other options are (subs will always be up front) to put just smoothing 15's in each four surround columns, just a near field, or both. But two horns up front, near field and four 15's smoothing subs may be way overkill and unnecessary money spent. I am looking into paying for a professional acoustical design so I will wait and see what advice comes from there.


----------



## Scott Simonian

All those things sound awesome! You have many options. I'd like to see what you come up with.


----------



## Archaea

Nearfield sealed subs are the cat's meow - firing directly into your chair back.

I was talking to one of the locals the other day. If I was to start from scratch right now with nothing except the experiences I have to guide me - I would put a pair of horn, or ported subs up front, and a single or trio of sealed subs directly behind my chair firing into the back of my chair (maybe into the bottom - haven't experienced that - you'd have to ask Scott Simonian his thoughts on that with his riser). Simple --- Two different sub banks, two subwoofer outs, two distance settings.

I spoke about it in stitch1's room thread, but I think you want either 1 nearfield firing directly into the back of your MLP. Or 3 nearfield, if your center chair is centered in the room - and one sub behind each of the primary three listening positions. I didn't like 2 nearfield centered between three seats in my own room, as the subs were firing into the armrest of my theater chairs, and you lost all the tactile effect and the seat to the left and to the right of the MLP suffered from some localization. So in my testing I liked 1 or 3 to give either the MLP or the optimal three chairs the best theater experience.


----------



## jlpowell84

Archaea said:


> Nearfield sealed subs are the cat's meow - firing directly into your chair back.
> 
> I was talking to one of the locals the other day. If I was to start from scratch right now with nothing except the experiences I have to guide me - I would put a pair of horn, or ported subs up front, and a single or trio of sealed subs directly behind my chair firing into the back of my chair (maybe into the bottom - haven't experienced that - you'd have to ask Scott Simonian his thoughts on that with his riser). Simple --- Two different sub banks, two subwoofer outs, two distance settings.
> 
> I spoke about it in stitch1's room thread, but I think you want either 1 nearfield firing directly into the back of your MLP. Or 3 nearfield, if your center chair is centered in the room - and one sub behind each of the primary three listening positions. I didn't like 2 nearfield centered between three seats in my own room, as the subs were firing into the armrest of my theater chairs, and you lost all the tactile effect and the seat to the left and to the right of the MLP suffered from some localization. So in my testing I liked 1 or 3 to give either the MLP or the optimal three chairs the best theater experience.


Great info! I haven't experienced near field yet but I am a bass addict so I know I will like it. I am going to have a single row of four chairs and am going to do a slim bar behind that I want to possibly incorporate the near field subs into. So real quick, You would mix horns and sealed? I thought there was phase issues with mixing? Also I think I would put a sub behind each MLP seat. I am gonna do the two middle chairs have no arm rest in the very middle. Two outside seats will have arm rests. IOIOOIOI Like that. Then I can change out the outside seats with middle to get even wear on them. Anyway 98% of the time it's just wife and I so I will do two near field. Do you think an SI 18HT is enough? No reason to spend $500 on a near field drier right as it will be tamed much compared to the fronts right? I guess ULF needs displacement...


----------



## Scott Simonian

So far I'm pretty impressed with the nearfield. I personally would not use _just_ nearfield by itself but it's like another half of the equation.

A perfectly blended pair of conventionally placed subs with nearfield is the s**t.


Btw, my riser feels about as intense as a good nearfield does firing in the back of a seat. The difference seems like it's more of an up/down kind of wobble than a kick to the back kind of thing. Carp's room has a single HT18 sealed right behind the main seat. That was the most intense thing I have ever experienced. I'm sure my sub riser could do the same. I just can't get away with those kinds of levels.


----------



## carp

I agree with Scott that nearfield is part of it. I wouldn't want to do without the up front sub or the nearfield sub. When toggling on and off the mute on the minidsp you lose something with both muting the up front subs and muting the nearfield subs independently of each other. Gotta have both!! 

Judging from Doug's water bottle videos of his nearfield Othorns he has the most intense nearfield setup.... ever.


----------



## Archaea

I don't have a problem with the idea of mixing horns, ported and sealed because of the specific use case I'm talking about.

I'm not worried about generating huge SPL levels at 10hz. (and it DOES take huge SPL levels at 10hz (or a wooden suspended floor or riser) to notice). But replace that with a nearfield sub in very close proximity to the back of the chair playing 10hz and you can get away with a LOT less SPL and get the tactile feel in spades.

*So what,* if the overall SPL in the room is not as high as some of the e-pen1s wars say you should have on this forum, because of some sort of phase difference between the horn and the sealed when the only thing you care about at 10hz is the feel. The feel is afforded you regardless of output level by the nearfield sub firing directly into the back of your chair, and it is goooooooooood. In fact there are guys in the tactile feel thread that dominguez1 put together that are intentionally running their near field subs out of phase for more feel at less overall room SPL. 

Horns and ported have obvious benefits over sealed at port tune and above in the case of horns. I don't care that a horn can't produce as much output below 15-20hz. That's what the nearfield are for. Give me the easy output of the ported or sealed up front, and the tactile feel of the sealed nearfield to deliver the uber low stuff that you otherwise have to completely overspec your room to produce if the subs aren't nearfield.

Furthermore that uber low stuff makes the room complain, grumble, creak, weaken if played at high dB levels -- the nearfield really solves that.


So think this through with me.

Guys on here are selling ported caps from time to time for next to nothing. There is a guy selling two ported caps for $800 right now. That's unreasonably cheap.

So you put a couple of caps up front. I've long held, and I still do - that for my subjective volume needs - two caps were all I needed. Then you add the nearfield sealed for that tactile feel down low.

Bam!

2 caps or equivalent ported subs up front on Left and Right. (need more output? get a couple horns)
1-3 cheap nearfield subs like the SI 18HT, run 1-2dB lower than the front sub bank to avoid any sense of the subs being behind you. Bam. Done. World Class Experience.


and that would be cheaper than 8 sealed in all categories amps, cabs, and driver expense.


That's what I have to offer with my experiences ---- combined with my subjective volume preferences anyway, and the best way to get it done on a budget, IMO.



You want DIY - buy two of those LMS 5400 Ultras - make a ported Cap equivalent out of them. Power them with a CV-5000 amp and a minidsp.
Buy 1-3 18" SI HT and place them nearfield, as ABSOLUTELY close to your listening position as possible. Firing into the back of your chair.

You might also consider a 24" sub to fire into the back of both of your chairs at once for nearfield. That thing is a monster. I tried 10" subs nearfield and while they were great subs at super close distance, when you moved them back at all so you could lean the chair back, or put them on the floor, the tactile feel nearly completely disappeared. The nearfield needs to be close, and the bigger the driver the better!




This was all speaking to a specific use case. If you are going to try to match sealed up front, with horns up front, or ported up front - then I'm not saying that's optimal, and the general advice to avoid it might be most reasonable.


----------



## darrellh44

Is it best to have the near-field driver parallel to the back of a recliner? How close is too close? I was thinking of incorporating near-field drivers in a DIY riser behind the front row recliners. It would have a sloped front to mount the drivers at an angle matching the backs of front row recliners when reclined. If I use 18" drivers at say a 30deg angle to the floor, the platform would have to be at least 10" - 11" tall. Is this an appropriate height for a second row riser?


----------



## DaveyK

Archaea said:


> I don't have a problem with the idea of mixing horns, ported and sealed because of the specific use case I'm talking about.
> 
> I'm not worried about generating huge SPL levels at 10hz. (and it DOES take huge SPL levels at 10hz (or a wooden suspended floor or riser) to notice). But replace that with a nearfield sub in very close proximity to the back of the chair playing 10hz and you can get away with a LOT less SPL and get the tactile feel in spades.
> 
> *So what,* if the overall SPL in the room is not as high as some of the e-pen1s wars say you should have on this forum, because of some sort of phase difference between the horn and the sealed when the only thing you care about at 10hz is the feel. The feel is afforded you regardless of output level by the nearfield sub firing directly into the back of your chair, and it is goooooooooood. In fact there are guys in the tactile feel thread that dominguez1 put together that are intentionally running their near field subs out of phase for more feel at less overall room SPL.
> 
> Horns and ported have obvious benefits over sealed at port tune and above in the case of horns. I don't care that a horn can't produce as much output below 15-20hz. That's what the nearfield are for. Give me the easy output of the ported or sealed up front, and the tactile feel of the sealed nearfield to deliver the uber low stuff that you otherwise have to completely over space your room to produce if the subs aren't nearfield.
> 
> Furthermore that uber low stuff makes the room complain, grumble, creak, weaken if played at high dB levels -- the nearfield really solves that.
> 
> 
> So think this through with me.
> 
> Guys on here are selling ported caps from time to time for next to nothing. There is a guy selling two ported caps for $800 right now. That's unreasonably cheap.
> 
> So you put a couple of caps up front. I've long held, and I still do - that for my subjective volume needs - two caps were all I needed. Then you add the nearfield sealed for that tactile feel down low.
> 
> Bam!
> 
> 2 caps or equivalent ported subs up front on Left and Right. (need more output? get a couple horns)
> 1-3 cheap nearfield subs like the SI 18HT, run 1-2dB lower than the front sub bank to avoid any sense of the subs being behind you. Bam. Done. World Class Experience.
> 
> 
> and that would be cheaper than 8 sealed in all categories amps, cabs, and driver expense.
> 
> 
> That's what I have to offer with my experiences ---- combined with my subjective volume preferences anyway, and the best way to get it done on a budget, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> You want DIY - buy two of those LMS 5400 Ultras - make a ported Cap equivalent out of them. Power them with a CV-5000 amp and a minidsp.
> Buy 1-3 18" SI HT and place them nearfield, as ABSOLUTELY close to your listening position as possible. Firing into the back of your chair.
> 
> You might also consider a 24" sub to fire into the back of both of your chairs at once for nearfield. That thing is a monster. I tried 10" subs nearfield and while they were great subs at super close distance, when you moved them back at all so you could lean the chair back, or put them on the floor, the tactile feel nearly completely disappeared. The nearfield needs to be close, and the bigger the driver the better!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was all speaking to a specific use case. If you are going to try to match sealed up front, with horns up front, or ported up front - then I'm not saying that's optimal, and the general advice to avoid it might be most reasonable.


This is what I'm thinking of doing once my house is built. 2 OS LFU's up front and a few 18" sealed nearfield subs behind my row of seats. JTR 210's/212's or JBL 4722's for LCR. Hope they will all play nice together!


----------



## Scott Simonian

Archaea said:


> *So what,*


Plenty of ways to skin a cat. But you shouldn't ever cuz cats are daawwwesome! 

Jon, you really need to get a pair of Cap's. You'll never be happy until you do. Put ALL of your sealed 18's nearfield. Double stack them and have two per seat.

Some Cap's and/or OS "subs" up front. There ya go, bud.


----------



## Archaea

darrellh44 said:


> Is it best to have the near-field driver parallel to the back of a recliner? How close is too close? I was thinking of incorporating near-field drivers in a DIY riser behind the front row recliners. It would have a sloped front to mount the drivers at an angle matching the backs of front row recliners when reclined. If I use 18" drivers at say a 30deg angle to the floor, the platform would have to be at least 10" - 11" tall. Is this an appropriate height for a second row riser?



There is no such thing as too close so long as the driver cone and surround aren't rubbing on the chair. The closer the better.


The driver cone needs to fire into your back (or butt?) for the feel to be most effective. 


one of the other guys can tell you more about their experiences with the angle and height. My sub drivers are vertical plane oriented and fire directly into the base of my chair/butt/feet from behind.


----------



## NWCgrad

Archaea said:


> There is no such thing as too close so long as the driver cone and surround aren't rubbing on the chair. The closer the better.
> 
> 
> The driver cone needs to fire into your back (or butt?) for the feel to be most effective.
> 
> 
> one of the other guys can tell you more about their experiences with the angle and height. My sub drivers are vertical plane oriented and fire directly into the base of my chair/butt/feet from behind.


In the name of science we need experimentation to determine the best angle for maximal effect. You have extensive 0 degree data, now let's get some for all the angles up to 90 degrees, in triplicate sets and blind.


----------



## jlpowell84

@Archaea I am 100% on page with you. And I value you and your general HT crew east of me quite a bit  You guys have done much for AVS and this hobby and many have gleaned from your efforts!

Here is what I am thinking, which is right in line with you. I want two Horns up front. I need to research Ghorn and others cab size. One quick question here. Does the horn vent need to fire into the room? I am trying to get my false wall as skinny as possible to save on my 20ft room depth as much as possible. Even if I go baffle wall I think I can get 2.5ft for false wall. IF no baffle wall I think I could get away with 2ft as JBL's are 17.75" depth of cab. Nice benefit there. Anyway need to know that...But I want two horns or at least monster ported ones like Jbrown did with his UXL's. Then some near field like you say. Really I like one or even two SI 24's for near field. But honestly thats a lot of money right there. My main question here is if I went with just SI 18HT's will I ever hit limits with lets say two of them? One for each of the two center seats. If so maybe go with HST's?


----------



## WereWolf84

carp said:


> I agree with Scott that nearfield is part of it. I wouldn't want to do without the up front sub or the nearfield sub. When toggling on and off the mute on the minidsp you lose something with both muting the up front subs and muting the nearfield subs independently of each other. Gotta have both!!
> 
> Judging from Doug's water bottle videos of his nearfield Othorns he has *the most intense nearfield setup.... ever*.


I think N8DOGG also has the most intense nearfiled setup, dual Ghorns + six 21" subs


----------



## carp

WereWolf84 said:


> I think N8DOGG also has the most intense nearfiled setup, dual Ghorns + six 21" subs


Yep, can't forget Nathan. He's got a room full of nearfield!


----------



## jlpowell84

Yea Nate is in class all by himself!

Does anyone know of a horn that has a shorter mounting depth? I'm trying to visualize some Ghorns (which I really want) behind false wall but that brings it out quite a bit. Can cabs be modified so vents fire out of different side, or can someone tell me, do vents need to fire towards MLP? Can they fire at each other or away from each other? Kinda OCD coming in there for me though, would much prefer vents firing at me. I might end up having to go custom ported design for that very reason of mounting depth.

Also it looks like the HT 18 is going to be discontinued. I am thinking I should buy some today. So is two behind the two main seats enough? Or should I do four and have one for each of the four seats in my single row of four seats?


----------



## Scott Simonian

They don't have to fire out at you. It's arguable that you may get more direct tactile transfer that way (good to know if used 'nearfield') but if it's up at the front wall it makes no difference. You can point these sideways if you have to. This is exactly what @lukeamdman is doing with his dual Ghorns and Othorns.


----------



## jlpowell84

Is this amp enough to power four near field HT18's? I am guessing no, prob want to feed closer to 800 watt per driver I imagine. Juts wasn't sure since near field is less db to drive. But ULF takes displacement which needs wattage  I guess I can buy a way over powered amp so when I'm all said and done I can title my build something like, "24.8KW theater." 

http://www.amazon.com/Peavey-IPR-20...d=1443025611&sr=1-1&keywords=peavey+amplifier

Looks like the make a 2000, 3000, 5000 and 7000 version. Was thinking the 7000 version for the ported or horn beasts up front.

Sorry for jacking your thread @carp. I will have my build thread up soon once I get all my ducks in a row and finish drawing out my plans.

Edit: Man I'm dense sometimes...I totally forgot about my Crown connection  RMC Audio where I bought my JBL's and DSi amps can get stuff for around 42% off retail...Find necessary amp, order done...


----------



## Scott Simonian

Looks low powered. Do you have the HT18's already? If not, get the d4's and just use a single inuke6000.


----------



## beastaudio

Scott Simonian said:


> So far I'm pretty impressed with the nearfield. I personally would not use _just_ nearfield by itself but it's like another half of the equation.
> 
> A perfectly blended pair of conventionally placed subs with nearfield is the s**t.
> 
> 
> Btw, my riser feels about as intense as a good nearfield does firing in the back of a seat. The difference seems like it's more of an up/down kind of wobble than a kick to the back kind of thing. Carp's room has a single HT18 sealed right behind the main seat. That was the most intense thing I have ever experienced. I'm sure my sub riser could do the same. I just can't get away with those kinds of levels.


That's unfortunate you can't let it rip. Ive done it a few times where I can't really even see anymore with my nearfield boys. 



jlpowell84 said:


> @Archaea I am 100% on page with you. And I value you and your general HT crew east of me quite a bit  You guys have done much for AVS and this hobby and many have gleaned from your efforts!
> 
> Here is what I am thinking, which is right in line with you. I want two Horns up front. I need to research Ghorn and others cab size. One quick question here. Does the horn vent need to fire into the room? I am trying to get my false wall as skinny as possible to save on my 20ft room depth as much as possible. Even if I go baffle wall I think I can get 2.5ft for false wall. IF no baffle wall I think I could get away with 2ft as JBL's are 17.75" depth of cab. Nice benefit there. Anyway need to know that...But I want two horns or at least monster ported ones like Jbrown did with his UXL's. Then some near field like you say. Really I like one or even two SI 24's for near field. But honestly thats a lot of money right there. My main question here is if I went with just SI 18HT's will I ever hit limits with lets say two of them? One for each of the two center seats. If so maybe go with HST's?


Dude you are getting out of control here! I mean that in a "I'm a little concerned you are going to overshoot a 100yd target by 300 yds." Two sealed hs24's? no way you need that. I have two sealed hst-18's and even when I am pushing them to the point it is no longer comfortable to sit in the seat, they are still just loafing. I've seen the HST at max throw, and I have never been able to get close to that...Two SI 18HT's will suffice. You really feel you need more, just bump up to the HST  As far as up front goes, you once again are thinking huge, and I love it, but as Arch said, two Caps would in incredible. Multiple sealed or two horns of some sort, ALSO incredible. You can kind of go anywhere with that, just have decide what's most important to you I guess, and make sure the majority of your output is based up front.

On another point, as Jon didn't like the duals approach for nearfield, and preferred one or three instead, I have had a VERY pleasant experience with my two drivers that are basically centered on the two armrests for my middle chair (on a three seat row). I not once have run into issues with that at all.


----------



## lukeamdman

Scott Simonian said:


> They don't have to fire out at you. It's arguable that you may get more direct tactile transfer that way (good to know if used 'nearfield') but if it's up at the front wall it makes no difference. You can point these sideways if you have to. This is exactly what @lukeamdman is doing with his dual Ghorns and Othorns.


With horns (tapped or FLH), firing them to the side (essentially "corner loading" them) has had better results 100% of the time for me. 

When I setup/calibrated Othorns and a BFM THT for other AVS members it was the same result as well.


----------



## jlpowell84

Brandon, what Jon's reasoning for that again? I hear ya, AVS makes us crazy!!! I mean just look at Luke 

Luke firing into side walls is great news for me, I really want dual horns up front. GHorns may be a bit much and 300lbs is a turn off. I'm sure a couple smaller brothers would do just fine. As far as driver options what would you choose thats available right now? I kinda had a lead on a UXL from the waiting list. I'm sure I could buy at least two spots from people who are tired of waiting. I'm in no hurry.


----------



## jlpowell84

Scott Simonian said:


> Looks low powered. Do you have the HT18's already? If not, get the d4's and just use a single inuke6000.


No I don't. Seen last night they are discontinuing and have them for $159 a driver. So I was gonna order some today. Sounds like I can get away with just two of them but why not one for each seat at $159 a driver? Wiring up four D4's in series presents 2 ohm load? Or does inuke need 4 ohm load presented?


----------



## Scott Simonian

jlpowell84 said:


> No I don't. Seen last night they are discontinuing and have them for $159 a driver. So I was gonna order some today. Sounds like I can get away with just two of them but why not one for each seat at $159 a driver? Wiring up four D4's in series presents 2 ohm load? Or does inuke need 4 ohm load presented?


Wiring four d4's in series parallel will give you 2ohm but in pairs of two they are 4ohm. Perfect for two channels on an inuke 6000.


----------



## jlpowell84

Scott Simonian said:


> Wiring four d4's in series parallel will give you 2ohm but in pairs of two they are 4ohm. Perfect for two channels on an inuke 6000.


And if you want two ohm load in future the option is there. Sounds like 4 ohm is the weiner 

SI 18HTx4=$636 check
Inuke 6000=$350 check

Near field a$$ rumble= check


----------



## Archaea

jlpowell84 said:


> Brandon, what Jon's reasoning for that again?



Post 166
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...reat-escape-theater-build-6.html#post36184946

and post 646
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh.../1478065-carp-s-basement-22.html#post37490426

But hey - that's just my experiences in my room. Brandon says a pair works well in his room.

Sounds like you'll need to experiment in your own to make that call what works optimally for you.


----------



## jlpowell84

Archaea said:


> Post 166
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...reat-escape-theater-build-6.html#post36184946
> 
> and post 646
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh.../1478065-carp-s-basement-22.html#post37490426
> 
> But hey - that's just my experiences in my room. Brandon says a pair works well in his room.
> 
> Sounds like you'll need to experiment in your own to make that call what works optimally for you.


I didn't see it? Or are you talking about the driver firing directly into the seat? If so I am doing a single row of four seats so that's my reasoning for four HT18's. Was there some scientific reason why odd numbers were better? Phase wrapping, chinese, chinese, chinese?


----------



## carp

jlpowell84 said:


> I
> Sorry for jacking your thread @carp.


No problem at all, I do it all the time in other threads.... and probably my own threads too somehow...


----------



## beastaudio

jlpowell84 said:


> I didn't see it? Or are you talking about the driver firing directly into the seat? If so I am doing a single row of four seats so that's my reasoning for four HT18's. Was there some scientific reason why odd numbers were better? Phase wrapping, chinese, chinese, chinese?


Jon was saying he liked either a single 18 firing directly into the back of his center seat, or all three in a row firing directly into their respective seats. I have my TWO firing directly into the arm rests on either side of the main seating position so it takes care of the center seat as well as both left and right seats. It's got nothing to do with odd/even/ phase stuffs.


----------



## jlpowell84

beastaudio said:


> Jon was saying he liked either a single 18 firing directly into the back of his center seat, or all three in a row firing directly into their respective seats. I have my TWO firing directly into the arm rests on either side of the main seating position so it takes care of the center seat as well as both left and right seats. It's got nothing to do with odd/even/ phase stuffs.


I thought so, I will have four seats in this config, IOIOOIOI

So four drivers it is. Does Nick give multiples discount? Have a buddy who wants to build quad HST's. Thats 2780 total...

Anyone have a good guess when they could possibly be out of stock? Not sure I have ever seen them out of stock...I just feel the sense of urgency to order them...


----------



## beastaudio

jlpowell84 said:


> I thought so, I will have four seats in this config, IOIOOIOI
> 
> So four drivers it is. Does Nick give multiples discount? Have a buddy who wants to build quad HST's. Thats 2780 total...
> 
> Anyone have a good guess when they could possibly be out of stock? Not sure I have ever seen them out of stock...I just feel the sense of urgency to order them...


You should definitely feel urgency, they aren't just going out of stock, Nick is going to stop producing the HT line for sure, and might only be offering his other lines OEM. If you are wanting something, I'd get it now.


----------



## NWCgrad

carp said:


> No problem at all, I do it all the time in other threads.... and probably my own threads too somehow...


Hey Carp stop jacking up Carp's thread...

Sorry couldn't resist.


----------



## beastaudio

jlpowell84 said:


> Even the HST?


He said he doubts that will last too long as well but yes, at least for now you can still get the HST's.


----------



## Archaea

@jlpowell84

-------sent you a PM regarding your receipt.


----------



## laeriq

carp said:


> Judging from Doug's water bottle videos of his nearfield Othorns he has the most intense nearfield setup.... ever.


I'd take on that challenge. Dual OS Pros behind the sofa. But I'm only powering with a Peavey 7500... what's Doug using? And yeah Nate doesn't count... different weight class altogether. 

Interesting discussion on the nearfield/sealed or horn/everything else. I'm doing the opposite of what's described... four sealed 18's in front under the screen and the OS Pros behind the sofa. That's been the arrangement for about 2 months now and I'm floored. I'd love to try it the other way sometime but just don't have the room. Maybe in the next house.... in the next life.


----------



## carp

laeriq said:


> I'd take on that challenge. Dual OS Pros behind the sofa. But I'm only powering with a Peavey 7500... what's Doug using? And yeah Nate doesn't count... different weight class altogether.
> 
> Interesting discussion on the nearfield/sealed or horn/everything else. I'm doing the opposite of what's described... four sealed 18's in front under the screen and the OS Pros behind the sofa. That's been the arrangement for about 2 months now and I'm floored. I'd love to try it the other way sometime but just don't have the room. Maybe in the next house.... in the next life.


Oh hell yes. That pic is awesome!!  

Othorns vs. OS Pros. Good battle there!! Purple is Othorn, Blue/Red is OS Pro in case some guys haven't seen these measurements. OS is king from 40-100hz - by a lot and then the Othorn pulls ahead from 40hz and below. 

Subjectively I'd love to know which one is more enjoyable. I don't know how much spl I could take above 40hz... Lower stuff below 30hz is much easier to take. I bet the OS Pro makes you involuntarily blink - hard. 

It would be very interesting to see how the OS LFU compares and I think that's going to happen soon?


----------



## d_c

@laeriq - ultimate setup there! I would definitely have a pair of OS Pro if I didn't like building stuff. I only have $800 in each cab including driver. I have decided that sealed for the low stuff and horns from 20hz and up is what I like best, but I'll have the 24 nearfield and horns up front behind the screen. I'm using a channel of the clone for each Othorn. Have you ever set those OSs with the horn mouths together and facing the couch? I can't imagine what that would be like with those monsters


----------



## lukeamdman

laeriq said:


> I'd take on that challenge. Dual OS Pros behind the sofa. *But I'm only powering with a Peavey 7500... *what's Doug using? And yeah Nate doesn't count... different weight class altogether.
> 
> Interesting discussion on the nearfield/sealed or horn/everything else. I'm doing the opposite of what's described... four sealed 18's in front under the screen and the OS Pros behind the sofa. That's been the arrangement for about 2 months now and I'm floored. I'd love to try it the other way sometime but just don't have the room. Maybe in the next house.... in the next life.


Dude...that's a crime!



d_c said:


> @laeriq - ultimate setup there! I would definitely have a pair of OS Pro if I didn't like building stuff. I only have $800 in each cab including driver. I have decided that sealed for the low stuff and horns from 20hz and up is what I like best, but I'll have the 24 nearfield and horns up front behind the screen. I'm using a channel of the clone for each Othorn. Have you ever set those OSs with the horn mouths together and facing the couch? I can't imagine what that would be like with those monsters


I too was seriously considering the OS Pro, but after building the G's the Othorns were a breeze to build and almost half cost. 

High SPL at 30-40hz is awesome for short periods, but at 50hz and over it becomes downright painful.


----------



## jlpowell84

@laeriq I third that as awesome setup. Great pic too! For me I will have a 16x20 room with 2.5ft about for false wall and a single row of seating back about 11.5ft. Then a slim as possible bar behind that will house an SI 18HT for each of the four seats. I need to do some research on Horns. 
@d_c I am going to go back through your build thread. Seaton's are heading out Friday and I have already began to buy with the four SI 18's. Next is figuring out which horns to build. I think any will give me my SPL requirements which are not crazy.


----------



## jlpowell84

Do you guys remember the ported subs @jbrown15 built? How would something like that compare to a couple horns? Four would be cool but I don't think I will ever brush the limits of two as long as it was a serious driver. I'm just thinking through space and my short squatty fat JBL 4722 take up 90 inches of real estate behind 140 inch wide screen. Logically it would be easier to fill in the gaps on either side of the center with a couple ported monsters and call it a day. Horns I will need turned sideways firing each to the side walls. That will require some beefy stands and will put them above the JBL CD wave guide up closer to the ceiling, about 2/3 of room height, or jammed into corners. Not out of the question. I know horns are undisputed king of SPL but I'm just wondering if I will be just fine with ported like I explained. Has anyone gone from some beefy ported subs to horns and felt the change was well worth it? Am I going to regret not building horns?

And for drivers, what are my options?

1. Buy SI HST18's
2. Find a couple spots on the UXL waiting list to buy
3. Find a couple LMS 5400's

4. Use SI 18HT's.
5. Dayton's 18" offerings

I think consensus is the top three are on a level of their own.


----------



## jbrown15

jlpowell84 said:


> Do you guys remember the ported subs @jbrown15 built? How would something like that compare to a couple horns? Four would be cool but I don't think I will ever brush the limits of two as long as it was a serious driver. I'm just thinking through space and my short squatty fat JBL 4722 take up 90 inches of real estate behind 140 inch wide screen. Logically it would be easier to fill in the gaps on either side of the center with a couple ported monsters and call it a day. Horns I will need turned sideways firing each to the side walls. That will require some beefy stands and will put them above the JBL CD wave guide up closer to the ceiling, about 2/3 of room height, or jammed into corners. Not out of the question. I know horns are undisputed king of SPL but I'm just wondering if I will be just fine with ported like I explained. Has anyone gone from some beefy ported subs to horns and felt the change was well worth it? Am I going to regret not building horns?
> 
> And for drivers, what are my options?
> 
> 1. Buy SI HST18's
> 2. Find a couple spots on the UXL waiting list to buy
> 3. Find a couple LMS 5400's
> 
> 4. Use SI 18HT's.
> 5. Dayton's 18" offerings
> 
> I think consensus is the top three are on a level of their own.



Nick said that before he's no longer in business he's releasing a new 18" sub that will be in between the HT18 and HST18, that might be worth taking a look at.


And for the record I still miss my old big a$$ ported subs!


----------



## jlpowell84

DaveyK said:


> This is what I'm thinking of doing once my house is built. 2 OS LFU's up front and a few 18" sealed nearfield subs behind my row of seats. JTR 210's/212's or JBL 4722's for LCR. Hope they will all play nice together!





jbrown15 said:


> Nick said that before he's no longer in business he's releasing a new 18" sub that will be in between the HT18 and HST18, that might be worth taking a look at.
> 
> 
> And for the record I still miss my old big a$$ ported subs!


But in reality (we sure love to live in ridiculous sub land) there is simply no way I need four like you had. Duals would be plenty right...I need to review your build thread to see what the specs on those were...If I did just duals :roll eyes: I could spring for the HST. Seems to be the only driver in its class available right now...OR Could roll HT's and make an array of ported's up front there. Couple vertically on either side of center channel, then some outside screen along side walls vertically. I mean it's more physical locations of subs therefore better overall response.

this one seems like a decent driver and RE is a known company. I suppose at this price point one should wait to see what Nick puts out around the same price point. Just thinking is a driver was around 300 vs 500+ I could do more. Basically my budget for subs up front is 2100...Was 3k total but four SI 18HTs with inuke 6000 takes a little.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_27322_RE-Audio-SX18D2.html

And what about something like a 21" B&C woofer up front in two posted enclosures? If I had four SI 18HTs near field I don't need the front to dig into the teens. Or would them dropping off create a sense of unbalance? Anyone know how low a port tune for something like a lower excursion B&C could do?


----------



## jlpowell84

Does anyone know if IST's 21" driver is available? It will let you go to checkout on their site.

http://www.istonline.ca/mach5_ftw_21.html


----------



## Scott Simonian

You can still order one, not sure when you'll get it.


----------



## jlpowell84

Scott Simonian said:


> You can still order one, not sure when you'll get it.



Thats the thing, I'm in no hurry at all. My theater has a 2yr projected finish date by me. It's 100% DIY!

If I do only two ported subs up front certainly this is the best option right? Two of these babies and four 18HT's near field=

I just haven't heard much about them...


----------



## beastaudio

jlpowell84 said:


> Thats the thing, I'm in no hurry at all. My theater has a 2yr projected finish date by me. It's 100% DIY!
> 
> If I do only two ported subs up front certainly this is the best option right? Two of these babies and four 18HT's near field=
> 
> I just haven't heard much about them...


Yea, you'd be pretty happy there to say the least


----------



## jlpowell84

beastaudio said:


> Yea, you'd be pretty happy there to say the least


Right! I can't see any reason why not to do these since I am shooting for only two subs up front. Not much more in cost, doesn't say out of stock, lets me go to order page...I just wanted to be sure there wasn't any negatives about these drivers as I don't see many builds with them or much info about them. Everyone goes for the UXL 18.

IST website says best in sealed enclosure. This is where I need to turn to expertise of AVS/you guys. When talking to Nick at SI about subs he told me his 12" woofer is not good at all in sealed enclosures. I don't understand why. So if this isn't suited for a ported enclosure why not?


----------



## beastaudio

Dunno. You might also look at what chop was planning on doing with the B&C sw21 woofers in ported. I can't remember what tuning he was planning on but they are going to be some SERIOUS output monsters.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Thought he dropped those plans not that long ago?


----------



## beastaudio

yea kinda....but we know him! He will pop back up in a few months reinvigorated.


----------



## jlpowell84

What kinda wattage and size amp breakers would I need for two 16 cu ft FTW-21's?


----------



## Archaea

Archaea said:


> I don't have a problem with the idea of mixing horns, ported and sealed because of the specific use case I'm talking about.
> 
> I'm not worried about generating huge SPL levels at 10hz. (and it DOES take huge SPL levels at 10hz (or a wooden suspended floor or riser) to notice). But replace that with a nearfield sub in very close proximity to the back of the chair playing 10hz and you can get away with a LOT less SPL and get the tactile feel in spades.
> 
> *So what,* if the overall SPL in the room is not as high as some of the e-pen1s wars say you should have on this forum, because of some sort of phase difference between the horn and the sealed when the only thing you care about at 10hz is the feel. The feel is afforded you regardless of output level by the nearfield sub firing directly into the back of your chair, and it is goooooooooood. In fact there are guys in the tactile feel thread that dominguez1 put together that are intentionally running their near field subs out of phase for more feel at less overall room SPL.
> 
> Horns and ported have obvious benefits over sealed at port tune and above in the case of horns. I don't care that a horn can't produce as much output below 15-20hz. That's what the nearfield are for. Give me the easy output of the ported or sealed up front, and the tactile feel of the sealed nearfield to deliver the uber low stuff that you otherwise have to completely overspec your room to produce if the subs aren't nearfield.
> 
> Furthermore that uber low stuff makes the room complain, grumble, creak, weaken if played at high dB levels -- the nearfield really solves that.
> 
> 
> So think this through with me.
> 
> Guys on here are selling ported caps from time to time for next to nothing. There is a guy selling two ported caps for $800 right now. That's unreasonably cheap.
> 
> So you put a couple of caps up front. I've long held, and I still do - that for my subjective volume needs - two caps were all I needed. Then you add the nearfield sealed for that tactile feel down low.
> 
> Bam!
> 
> 2 caps or equivalent ported subs up front on Left and Right. (need more output? get a couple horns)
> 1-3 cheap nearfield subs like the SI 18HT, run 1-2dB lower than the front sub bank to avoid any sense of the subs being behind you. Bam. Done. World Class Experience.
> 
> 
> and that would be cheaper than 8 sealed in all categories amps, cabs, and driver expense.
> 
> 
> That's what I have to offer with my experiences ---- combined with my subjective volume preferences anyway, and the best way to get it done on a budget, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> You want DIY - buy two of those LMS 5400 Ultras - make a ported Cap equivalent out of them. Power them with a CV-5000 amp and a minidsp.
> Buy 1-3 18" SI HT and place them nearfield, as ABSOLUTELY close to your listening position as possible. Firing into the back of your chair.
> 
> You might also consider a 24" sub to fire into the back of both of your chairs at once for nearfield. That thing is a monster. I tried 10" subs nearfield and while they were great subs at super close distance, when you moved them back at all so you could lean the chair back, or put them on the floor, the tactile feel nearly completely disappeared. The nearfield needs to be close, and the bigger the driver the better!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was all speaking to a specific use case. If you are going to try to match sealed up front, with horns up front, or ported up front - then I'm not saying that's optimal, and the general advice to avoid it might be most reasonable.


 

I'm going to duplicate post this here - taken from the 4722 thread - because it's good information, and more people should know about it. Oh, and BTW, @LTD02 is a rockstar. It seems everytime I go back and revisit an old thread, LTD02 is the guy who solves the question, who has the answer, who just is there to guide the conversation the right way. John, I want you to come to the next big g2g KC does. We'll buy your plane ticket. I want to meet you, and thank you in person.



> They, and you should also read the first page of this thread, where @LTD02 dispels the confusions about mixing ported and sealed.
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ed-analog-vs-digital-hpf-other-ramblings.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was lucky enough to integrate sealed and ported successfully at first go because the mic2200 I was using as an HPF on the ported subs just happened to be using the correct order HPF slope to integrate ported and sealed without issue. (without even knowing anything about that technical aspect).
> Now I understand why with LTD02's guidance - Use a 12dB/octave 2nd order butterworth HPF filter on the iNuke DSP models on the ported to blend the sealed perfectly, or a Behringer 2200 ---- assuming both subs are at the front of the room. @LTD02 might have to chime in on what you need (something different?) to use if the ported are at the front of the room and the sealed are nearfield -- I have no idea if it's the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Post 147-
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-superior-jtr-captivators-5.html#post23905808
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Archaea said:
> 
> 
> 
> [Comparing 4 SI 18HT to 2 JTR Captivator Pros - and then running all together]
> We tried to make the EQ's match reasonably close - at least as best we could using similar 5000 watt amps, and basic parametric eq functions on very different sub designs. I used the two band Parametric EQ of the Behringer MIC2200 on a Crown XLS-5000 on my pair of JTR Captivators, and carp used the minidsp on his Cerwin Vega CV-5000 amp with his quad sealed SI 18"s. We went back and forth between the two EQ'ing functions until we got them close enough to proceed.
> 
> More setup notes:
> We had both amps wired up and active, and so to swap back and forth between sub demos was power down one amp and power up the other. Setups were level matched using the amp front panel attenuators so we didn't have to mess with anything on the receiver. The subs and speakers were all level matched using test tones, then manually adjusted slightly to better align frequency response frequencies using the omnimic track 2 as shown in the graphs. The CV-5000 amp gain on the SI was maxed out. The Crown XLS-5000 was a few ticks short of maxed out on the caps to make the levels match.
> 
> Cap setup:
> The Mic2200 is has analog dials, so I can only approximate the boost levels. To set my cap's EQ we put about a 3dB boost at ~30hz with a Q of .1, and then a wider, approximate 10dB cut at about 70ish hz with a Q of .3. I applied a HPF at around 20hz on the Mic2200. Again these numbers are approximate because they are analog dials. This EQ is unique to my room and my placement -- each room would be different. Let me throw that out there because I often have people ask me if they can mimic my EQ function to get a flat frequency response in their room.
> 
> SI setup:
> For the SI subs, the minidsp applied the parametric EQ. The minidsp screen was still up on my laptop - so I just copied down what carp had entered there this morning. I know carp was playing with some of the settings at the end of the day as we were playing with HPF settings - so if he changed any of these he'll have to speak up. I also thought were were boosting more than this at the low end,but maybe not. I know I had to boost WAY more than this my symetrix parametric EQ device I was using on the SI subs. With my unit I maxed it out at 15dB boost at 10-15 hz and couldn't even get my FR flat with that much boost on that device. Carp might be able to shed more light on this.
> 10hz * ??? * Q .5 (boost field was selected and blank when I turned on my laptop. I guess it must have been accidentally erased somehow)
> 20hz * 7dB gain * Q 1.4
> 27hz * 3dB gain * Q 4
> 39hz * 2dB gain * Q 5
> 40hz * -5dB gain * Q 4
> 76hz * 5dB gain * Q 3
> 
> So here are the frequency responses after matching and what we auditioned with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One thing to note is that Ported and Sealed do in fact play nice in my room. That isn't necessarily a universal truth - but i lost nothing by using both as evidenced by the black line. The little bump around cap tuning could easily be flatted out with an additional DSP filter.
Click to expand...


----------



## jlpowell84

BTW @Archaea, your PM inbox is full and can't send anymore...


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> So far I'm pretty impressed with the nearfield. I personally would not use _just_ nearfield by itself but it's like another half of the equation.
> 
> A perfectly blended pair of conventionally placed subs with nearfield is the s**t.
> 
> 
> Btw, my riser feels about as intense as a good nearfield does firing in the back of a seat. The difference seems like it's more of an up/down kind of wobble than a kick to the back kind of thing. *Carp's room has a single HT18 sealed right behind the main seat. That was the most intense thing I have ever experienced*. I'm sure my sub riser could do the same. I just can't get away with those kinds of levels.


Speaking of most intense, I was at Doug's the other day to hear the Othorns. Pretty much exactly what I imagined. Chest slam, eyes blinking, involuntary laughter, etc., it was nuts. One song found the resonant frequency of my feet, and I don't mean the floor because when I raised my feet off the floor I could still feel my tarsals/metatarsals banging together, haha.  Other songs found the resonant frequency of my sinuses/nose and I kept having to scratch my nose in between bursts of involuntary laughter. Crazy. 

Most intense bass since car audio stuff back in the 90's.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> Speaking of most intense, I was at Doug's the other day to hear the Othorns. Pretty much exactly what I imagined. Chest slam, eyes blinking, involuntary laughter, etc., it was nuts. One song found the resonant frequency of my feet, and I don't mean the floor because when I raised my feet off the floor I could still feel my tarsals/metatarsals banging together, haha.  Other songs found the resonant frequency of my sinuses/nose and I kept having to scratch my nose in between bursts of involuntary laughter. Crazy.
> 
> Most intense bass since car audio stuff back in the 90's.


Nice! That's the kind of thing I like to hear, Sheldon. 

Looks like we both need to get a couple of Othorns in our systems.


----------



## carp

Woah!!! Holy sweet mid bass! 

I'm sure most of you have heard Judith by A Perfect Circle. Well, I'm listening to Pandora right now and a version of the song (renholder mix) from the Underworld soundtrack comes on, check this out. 

Doug, you have to try this with the Othorns!!! If you guys are impatient forward to 1:30.


----------



## d_c

Oh man, just moved the Othorns back downstairs


----------



## Archaea

that's never stopped you before.


----------



## Archaea

carp said:


> Speaking of most intense, I was at Doug's the other day to hear the Othorns. Pretty much exactly what I imagined. Chest slam, eyes blinking, involuntary laughter, etc., it was nuts. One song found the resonant frequency of my feet, and I don't mean the floor because when I raised my feet off the floor I could still feel my tarsals/metatarsals banging together, haha.  Other songs found the resonant frequency of my sinuses/nose and I kept having to scratch my nose in between bursts of involuntary laughter. Crazy.
> 
> Most intense bass since car audio stuff back in the 90's.



BTW - I too was at Doug's the evening Sheldon was there.


Weaksauce setup, I was like "waaa? where's all the bass?"








Kidding aside. It's absolutely over the top having those Othorns fire into your back. Incontrollable smiles abound. I have absolutely no idea how you don't have the cops on your doorstep 27 seconds after the moment you fire that system up.


When the fearsome German Shepard house dog backs up with a look of terror in her eyes and runs out of the room you know you're getting full production value.


----------



## carp

Yeah, the dog wants to be in the room so bad... but then certain frequencies hit and she's out!! Very soon she's right back in until it happens all over again.


----------



## d_c

That dog is a basshead, but she likes the same music as Archaea. She has no love for metal. ️


----------



## jlpowell84

All this talk is making me think four sealed SI 18HTs won't be enough. Also jealous you all get to listen to each others setups so often. Jon has mocked up my 17cu ft FTW-21 ported refrigerators  28x24x65ish with three slot ports on bottom and driver mounted near bottom. Thinking about the CV5000 you guys have. Has it been tested for true output? I am gonna need a 30 amp line just for those two from subs lol. Roughly looking at the near field sub enclosure/bar (quad SI 18HT's) looks like I can get around 36 cu ft before internal bracing and other needs.

Arhcaea, I played 3/4 of that song (Walker Pendulum) and sat 10 inches in front of the Submersive. Yep thats pretty dang cool! I was wondering if I needed to have something in between me and the driver. I am sure it won't tickle/itch my back from my shirt moving lol. First though sitting back up on my living room couch 6ft away (SubMs are out in front of TV stand).


----------



## brian6751

Carp. What is the viewing distance from your first row to the screen? Also, does that column cause issues for the person in the back row closest to it?

My basement is very similar to yours and I'm trying to decide what to do with that column. My seats need to be a few feet behind it to have a decent 10' viewing distance but I'm in worried it will be a big distraction. 

Thanks


----------



## brian6751

Double post


----------



## carp

brian6751 said:


> Carp. What is the viewing distance from your first row to the screen? Also, does that column cause issues for the person in the back row closest to it?
> 
> My basement is very similar to yours and I'm trying to decide what to do with that column. My seats need to be a few feet behind it to have a decent 10' viewing distance but I'm in worried it will be a big distraction.
> 
> Thanks



My head in the first row is 10 feet from the screen. 

Here is a view from the back row couch on the left seat of the couch:





My room is 17.5 feet wide and the column is just under 4 feet from the left wall. The column doesn't distract in that seat, I've been there for movies before. I do have some of the left front speaker blocked but most of it is clear. It's not bad at all.


----------



## LTD02

could you point me to where (if) you discussed the 'clouds'? just curious what you have there and how you mounted them. looks nice.


----------



## carp

Thanks John. 

They are GIK 242 panels and I used wire and those hook/screw thingies that you hang plants from. Took awhile to get them all straight and I was worried that the bass would mess them up but fortunately that hasn't happened.

Speaking of treatments... I have been thinking about putting a bunch of insulation on the front wall around the center channel, like a baffle wall made out of insulation. A friend is making some homemade panels using this:


http://www.lowes.com/pd_82480-2256-INS541LD_0__?productId=3227256


I told him what I was thinking about doing and he said I should just buy some bags of it and stack them behind my screen surrounding my center channel. If I don't like it I can take the bags back since they will be unopened. 

Do you think this would be worth a try? I know the plastic will reflect some highs...

I was thinking this could be a great bass trap for my "new" corners. Since my subs are stacked floor to ceiling almost the corner of the room is now where the end of the screen (behind the screen anyway) meets the wall of subs and having bass traps there should be beneficial?


----------



## raynist

carp said:


> Thanks John.
> 
> They are GIK 242 panels and I used wire and those hook/screw thingies that you hang plants from. Took awhile to get them all straight and I was worried that the bass would mess them up but fortunately that hasn't happened.
> 
> Speaking of treatments... I have been thinking about putting a bunch of insulation on the front wall around the center channel, like a baffle wall made out of insulation. A friend is making some homemade panels using this:
> 
> 
> http://www.lowes.com/pd_82480-2256-INS541LD_0__?productId=3227256
> 
> 
> I told him what I was thinking about doing and he said I should just buy some bags of it and stack them behind my screen surrounding my center channel. If I don't like it I can take the bags back since they will be unopened.
> 
> Do you think this would be worth a try? I know the plastic will reflect some highs...
> 
> I was thinking this could be a great bass trap for my "new" corners. Since my subs are stacked floor to ceiling almost the corner of the room is now where the end of the screen (behind the screen anyway) meets the wall of subs and having bass traps there should be beneficial?


I have thought about this also and sort of did something like this behind my screen with ultratouch denim insulation. I like the idea of just stacking the unopened batt there. Will be a very interesting experiment.


----------



## lbrown105

raynist said:


> I have thought about this also and sort of did something like this behind my screen with ultratouch denim insulation. I like the idea of just stacking the unopened batt there. Will be a very interesting experiment.


 Guys, I did this too. My whole front wall is basically 4"thick broad band panels with another 8"of insulation behind the panels to the wall. All of this except of course where the LCR speakers are. Unfortunately I do not have before and after measurements with the same sub setup because when I did this to the front wall I also added more OS's and change their positions, so I do not have a good comparison from a measurement perspective.

I also draped a black sheet to make the whole thing really dark. Not pretty, but effective. I should make it look better but when the screen is up my motivation to make it look better fades quickly.


----------



## jlpowell84

Carp, surely Jon and others will chime in...

While still in the package is it pretty compacted? Or is it somewhat squishy? That will have an impact on its effectiveness for bass trapping. I used to always think super dense made logical sense for better containing bass but as I learned it was the less dense stuff like pink fluffy that does a good job. Or I learned wrong and the REW thread starter mis-informed me. But basically he told me anything over 9" thick that pink fluffy is king of all frequency absorption. 

I plan to do something like Ibrown105 and any open air behind my screen will be mostly fitted with insulation.


----------



## Archaea

@dlbeck probably has some advice to offer.


But yes, pink fluffy,(and the thicker the better) is supposedly the best (cost effective) bass absorption material.


---- from what I've read anyway.


----------



## jlpowell84

Archaea said:


> @dlbeck probably has some advice to offer.
> 
> 
> But yes, pink fluffy,(and the thicker the better) is supposedly the best (cost effective) bass absorption material.
> 
> 
> ---- from what I've read anyway.


Ok, and not just because it is cheap I also read. But if you plug the numbers into this calculator vs any numbers of other insulation it simply beats anything for low bass frequencies if its 9 inches thick or over. I played around with this thing for a month when I first discovered it lol. You just need to gas air flow resistivity number/rating for whatever insulation you want to test at whatever thickness. Just be sure to click random incidence, just means it enters at all sorts of random angles and not just directly 90 degrees in.

http://www.acousticmodelling.com/porous.php


----------



## beastaudio

Or just build a baffle wall and be completely done with it.


----------



## carp

What would be the easiest way to put a bunch of pink fluffy behind my screen? I'm talking thick enough so that it comes all the way out to the front baffle of the center channel. It can't be on the ground though because I have a floating screen.


----------



## lbrown105

^ I just put it back there but sealed it in plastic, but did not compress it at all. That way no fibers get in the air. Mine has panels at the bottom so it is hidden but if yours can't go to the bottom then you can just jut the correct lengths, seal in plastic lossely and then hang them to only come down to the bottom of the sreen. Going to the floor would be better if you can hide them though since it is another corner where bass typically build up.


----------



## d_c

Clamp the top of the insulation between two boards with screws and hang from the ceiling


----------



## stitch1

I don't know if this is the best way but I would think making a shelf at the bottom of your screen and using chicken wire to hold the fluffy up would work. Keeps it off the screen at least.


----------



## jdaddieo

My suggestion is to use fiberglass window screen material. Use a wooden batten attached on the ceiling or top of wall, staple screen material where needed then screw another batten to reinforce the staples. Roll out screen the length needed plus about an extra 10" and cut screen then pin it to ceiling out of your way. Start placing the fiberglass batts horizontally until your at the top then drop screen material overtop of insulation and secure with a batten board along the bottom. Then to black it out take a black sheet, like someone already suggested, or cheap black line material stapling in into the battens and replace the screen.


----------



## jlpowell84

When I made 15x15 square bass traps I didnt want the insulation to fall and settle over time. I had 14.5x15.5 fluffy with paper backing on one side. I tacked the paper to the inside of the top board of the frame.

And did you buy your Omnimic from PE? Has crossed my mind to get kit after all my REW troubles last year. Seems like its super user friendly with no big learning curve. Of course I would need a windows machine :/


----------



## carp

jlpowell84 said:


> When I made 15x15 square bass traps I didnt want the insulation to fall and settle over time. I had 14.5x15.5 fluffy with paper backing on one side. I tacked the paper to the inside of the top board of the frame.
> 
> And did you buy your Omnimic from PE? Has crossed my mind to get kit after all my REW troubles last year. Seems like its super user friendly with no big learning curve. Of course I would need a windows machine :/


Yes, I did get the Omni from PE. So easy to use!


----------



## carp

Thanks for the ideas for hanging the insulation guys!


----------



## NWCgrad

We expect comprehensive before and after measurements. 

Listening to the new David Gilmour album for first time, in 5.1 it sounds pretty good so far. Quite a bit different than his music from the hey day of Pink Floyd, but better than I expected.

The Barn Jan's on the blu ray (under the extras tab) are freaking awesome....nice to see Richard Wright jamming with David. Sound is really good - in my view these tracks are better than the main disc.


----------



## LTD02

it kind of depends on what you want to accomplish with the stuff to the sides of the center channel.


if you have bad front/back wall room modes, maybe the fiberglass is the solution.


if trying to enhance the performance of the center channel and beasts full baffle isn't in the cards, some mini-baffle wings like this might help by reducing cab diffraction (at least horizontally) and will help ameliorate any cancellation reflections coming off the wall directly behind the center. they will also help increase lower midrange sensitivity a bit. that is a qsc speaker. the wings are foam over wood. most all speakers should be made this way, but with waf, it is unlikely to ever "catch on" for living room setups. fill in any void behind with something absorptive so there aren't any strange panel resonances.


----------



## Stoked21

@carp

Why so light on the subs? Only 8 18s? 

Nice room. Would love to check it out sometime. Atmos yet? Haven't read the whole thread.

Derek


----------



## carp

Stoked21 said:


> @carp
> 
> Why so light on the subs? Only 8 18s?
> 
> Nice room. Would love to check it out sometime. Atmos yet? Haven't read the whole thread.
> 
> Derek



Haha, 9 18's - don't forget the nearfield sub behind my main seat! Yeah.... I know.... I have a bit of a problem. 

No Atmos yet. I'm waiting for it to get all hashed out with DTS X. Jonathan has Atmos now, and I was over there recently to watch Fury Road and it's crazy impressive but when we switched back and forth between 7.1 and Atmos the difference was not huge. Now, when we went back and forth between Atmos and 7.1 on the Atmos demo disk the difference was much more pronounced. 

Kind of like in the Atmos theaters. The demo's before the movie starts are always so much more impressive. I think eventually the movies will be just as impressive, can't wait for that! 

Any free time tomorrow? I'll be busy in the afternoon with the Royals game, but in the late morning I don't have anything going on.


----------



## Stoked21

Holy **** on 9-18s. Woofer envy.

Hmmmm on the Atmos point. If I switch from 7.1 to 5.2.4 the difference is substantial. Even on MM. That movie uses the tops a lot but not in a way that shows it off to the best of their ability. In my opinion Gravity is by far the best use, but that's likely obvious since in 0g 360 becomes more pronounced. I can't emphasize the sound difference between 7.1 and 5.2.4 enough. 

Waiting for DTS:X is like waiting for the next solar eclipse. While I recently(currently) am switching from 9.1 to an 11.1 dtsx hdcp2.2 front, it's really not much of a factor today as there is little to no X content. With a June 2016 release date (hold your breath on that one and see how blue you turn), anyone waiting for X is losing tons of valuable Atmos time. And with upgradeable AVR/prepro available today, it's pretty easy to enjoy Atmos knowing you can support X if/when available.

Let me check on tomorrow mid-morning. Same with KSU and Royals tomorrow afternoon/evening and not sure what wife has planned. This will be only the second post season game I've missed these last 2 years, but had to weigh options.....all the new amps and prepro and LCR or buy my ALCS ticket package....Guess which one I chose?


----------



## carp

Stoked21 said:


> Holy **** on 9-18s. Woofer envy.
> 
> Hmmmm on the Atmos point. If I switch from 7.1 to 5.2.4 the difference is substantial. Even on MM. That movie uses the tops a lot but not in a way that shows it off to the best of their ability. In my opinion Gravity is by far the best use, but that's likely obvious since in 0g 360 becomes more pronounced. I can't emphasize the sound difference between 7.1 and 5.2.4 enough.
> 
> Waiting for DTS:X is like waiting for the next solar eclipse. While I recently(currently) am switching from 9.1 to an 11.1 dtsx hdcp2.2 front, it's really not much of a factor today as there is little to no X content. With a June 2016 release date (hold your breath on that one and see how blue you turn), anyone waiting for X is losing tons of valuable Atmos time. And with upgradeable AVR/prepro available today, it's pretty easy to enjoy Atmos knowing you can support X if/when available.
> 
> Let me check on tomorrow mid-morning. Same with KSU and Royals tomorrow afternoon/evening and not sure what wife has planned. This will be only the second post season game I've missed these last 2 years, but had to weigh options.....all the new amps and prepro and LCR or buy my ALCS ticket package....Guess which one I chose?


I know a lot of guys that have the same impression of atoms/no atmos, so it could have just been that Fury Road was crazy impressive no matter what surround settings are used. 

The real issue is money, I also want to buy the minidsp with Dirac so too much to spend my money on right now. I did move my 4 surround speakers down closer to ear level to get Atmos ready, they were up close to the ceiling before. Ha, still have 4 holes in my walls that need to be patched. 

Ok, let me know when you find out about tomorrow.


----------



## carp

I'll PM you my number.


----------



## stitch1




----------



## carp

stitch1 said:


>


WOAH!!!! I **** you not... right after I read your post the song on Spotify changed to this. Hahaha


----------



## stitch1

That is awesome! \m/


----------



## NWCgrad

Stoked21 said:


> Holy **** on 9-18s. Woofer envy.
> 
> Hmmmm on the Atmos point. If I switch from 7.1 to 5.2.4 the difference is substantial. Even on MM. That movie uses the tops a lot but not in a way that shows it off to the best of their ability. In my opinion Gravity is by far the best use, but that's likely obvious since in 0g 360 becomes more pronounced. I can't emphasize the sound difference between 7.1 and 5.2.4 enough.
> 
> Waiting for DTS:X is like waiting for the next solar eclipse. While I recently(currently) am switching from 9.1 to an 11.1 dtsx hdcp2.2 front, it's really not much of a factor today as there is little to no X content. With a June 2016 release date (hold your breath on that one and see how blue you turn), anyone waiting for X is losing tons of valuable Atmos time. And with upgradeable AVR/prepro available today, it's pretty easy to enjoy Atmos knowing you can support X if/when available.
> 
> Let me check on tomorrow mid-morning. Same with *KSU* and Royals tomorrow afternoon/evening and not sure what wife has planned. This will be only the second post season game I've missed these last 2 years, but had to weigh options.....all the new amps and prepro and LCR or buy my ALCS ticket package....Guess which one I chose?


Go cats!!!! 

Carp's setup sounds great! Wish I lived closer, at least until winter sets in.


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> Go cats!!!!
> 
> Carp's setup sounds great! Wish I lived closer, at least until winter sets in.


I'm supposed to hate K State, but I've never been a 'my college is better than your college' kind of guy. I've kind of lost it for college sports anyway. 

Steve, not saying you are that kind of guy btw.... you know what I mean.


----------



## NWCgrad

I get ya....having graduated from KSU I have to pull for them. They were so baaaaaaaaad when older bothers went there it was beyond embarrassing. I got there for grad school in 1993, things were on the upswing.

If college football gets anymore political and the Big 12 keeps getting left out of the playoffs (many think it's due to number of TV sets) I may punt over to the NFL.


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> I get ya....having graduated from KSU I have to pull for them. They were so baaaaaaaaad when older bothers went there it was beyond embarrassing. I got there for grad school in 1993, things were on the upswing.
> 
> If college football gets anymore political and the Big 12 keeps getting left out of the playoffs (many think it's due to number of TV sets) I may punt over to the NFL.


I was a freshman at Nebraska in the fall of 92 so yes I remember K-State getting really good in the mid 90's. For me it's tough to pay much attention anymore to the Huskers since I was spoiled in college with winning the national championship 3 out of 4 years while I was up there. I lost a lot of interest when Callahan took over (wasn't even smart enough to change his plays when his Raiders went against Gruden's Bucs in the superbowl) and sure enough, he ruined the program. 

Now that we are the Big 10 I really could care less. My close college friends that were born in Nebraska aren't really into in anymore either. 

I do follow how the jumpers on the track team do from time to time since the head coach (also jumps coach, so he was my coach) is still going strong after all these years but like I say, I never developed any hatred towards other colleges.


----------



## SBuger

Archaea said:


> Nearfield sealed subs are the cat's meow - firing directly into your chair back.
> 
> I was talking to one of the locals the other day. If I was to start from scratch right now with nothing except the experiences I have to guide me - I would put a pair of horn, or ported subs up front, and a single or trio of sealed subs directly behind my chair firing into the back of my chair (maybe into the bottom - haven't experienced that - you'd have to ask Scott Simonian his thoughts on that with his riser). Simple --- Two different sub banks, two subwoofer outs, two distance settings.
> 
> I spoke about it in stitch1's room thread, but I think you want either 1 nearfield firing directly into the back of your MLP. Or 3 nearfield, if your center chair is centered in the room - and one sub behind each of the primary three listening positions. I didn't like 2 nearfield centered between three seats in my own room, as the subs were firing into the armrest of my theater chairs, and you lost all the tactile effect and the seat to the left and to the right of the MLP suffered from some localization. So in my testing I liked 1 or 3 to give either the MLP or the optimal three chairs the best theater experience.





Archaea said:


> I don't have a problem with the idea of mixing horns, ported and sealed because of the specific use case I'm talking about.
> 
> I'm not worried about generating huge SPL levels at 10hz. (and it DOES take huge SPL levels at 10hz (or a wooden suspended floor or riser) to notice). But replace that with a nearfield sub in very close proximity to the back of the chair playing 10hz and you can get away with a LOT less SPL and get the tactile feel in spades.
> 
> *So what,* if the overall SPL in the room is not as high as some of the e-pen1s wars say you should have on this forum, because of some sort of phase difference between the horn and the sealed when the only thing you care about at 10hz is the feel. The feel is afforded you regardless of output level by the nearfield sub firing directly into the back of your chair, and it is goooooooooood. In fact there are guys in the tactile feel thread that dominguez1 put together that are intentionally running their near field subs out of phase for more feel at less overall room SPL.
> 
> Horns and ported have obvious benefits over sealed at port tune and above in the case of horns. I don't care that a horn can't produce as much output below 15-20hz. That's what the nearfield are for. Give me the easy output of the ported or sealed up front, and the tactile feel of the sealed nearfield to deliver the uber low stuff that you otherwise have to completely overspec your room to produce if the subs aren't nearfield.
> 
> Furthermore that uber low stuff makes the room complain, grumble, creak, weaken if played at high dB levels -- the nearfield really solves that.
> 
> 
> So think this through with me.
> 
> Guys on here are selling ported caps from time to time for next to nothing. There is a guy selling two ported caps for $800 right now. That's unreasonably cheap.
> 
> So you put a couple of caps up front. I've long held, and I still do - that for my subjective volume needs - two caps were all I needed. Then you add the nearfield sealed for that tactile feel down low.
> 
> Bam!
> 
> 2 caps or equivalent ported subs up front on Left and Right. (need more output? get a couple horns)
> 1-3 cheap nearfield subs like the SI 18HT, run 1-2dB lower than the front sub bank to avoid any sense of the subs being behind you. Bam. Done. World Class Experience.
> 
> 
> and that would be cheaper than 8 sealed in all categories amps, cabs, and driver expense.
> 
> 
> That's what I have to offer with my experiences ---- combined with my subjective volume preferences anyway, and the best way to get it done on a budget, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> You want DIY - buy two of those LMS 5400 Ultras - make a ported Cap equivalent out of them. Power them with a CV-5000 amp and a minidsp.
> Buy 1-3 18" SI HT and place them nearfield, as ABSOLUTELY close to your listening position as possible. Firing into the back of your chair.
> 
> You might also consider a 24" sub to fire into the back of both of your chairs at once for nearfield. That thing is a monster. I tried 10" subs nearfield and while they were great subs at super close distance, when you moved them back at all so you could lean the chair back, or put them on the floor, the tactile feel nearly completely disappeared. The nearfield needs to be close, and the bigger the driver the better!
> 
> 
> This was all speaking to a specific use case. If you are going to try to match sealed up front, with horns up front, or ported up front - then I'm not saying that's optimal, and the general advice to avoid it might be most reasonable.



Carp, I hope you don't mind me posting a few questions in your thread and apologize in advance for this long rambling post. First I'd like to thank you guys: Archaea, Carp, and all of you running nearfield subs with drivers firing into the back of your chair! It's mainly because of you guys that I'm doing the same now with one of my subs. I still cant get over what a drastic difference it makes! 

These two posts from Archaea have really got me thinking "what if". After several months of tinkering with my two subs (JTR Cap 2400 and Rythmik FV15HP) with placement, REW, and FR tweaking with a miniDSP, I'm finally getting the kind of bass that I've always dreamed of. I have the Cap corner loaded up front about 12' away and the FV directly behind MLP with the driver firing right into the back of the couch. I'm getting to the point that I feel like I'm running my subs ridiculously hot most of the time because the bass is so clean and potent without being boomy, making it easy to just keep on running hotter and hotter. For instance, on MMFR, I'm about 8db hot at around -2 on MVC. The bass is crazy good! The problem is, on real demanding material, the FV just isn't quite enough sub in my huge space to hang in there for very long before the heat sink starts getting pretty hot. Its an awesome sub and I don't want to overwork it. I guess I could just add 2 to 3 more FV's behind the couch but from what I've been reading in the DIY section, I could probably build 3 subs that would smash the Rythmiks for way cheaper.

I've also tried running the Cap the same way as the FV firing directly into my back and putting the FV up front. That's a pretty killer combo as well but after a lot of playing I think I actually kind of like the Cap up front and the FV nearfield. Also with the FV up front it has to work even harder. With the FV nearfield, the extra extension down to ~12hz opposed to ~17hz on the Cap is kind of nice. And oddly enough, I kind of like the midbass area (50-80hz) a little better on the FV. For lack of a better word, it feels a little sharper, giving the impression of a bit more slam and articulation. Now from around 20-40ish the Cap just totally owns the FV. Obviously the Cap has a huge output advantage and is a beast, so I'm talking comparisons at reasonable levels. 

So I think the plan is now to add a sub behind each seat of my three chair leather couch. I totally agree with your assessment of needing 1 or 3 nearfield subs. Or at least having 1 behind which ever seat your listening from. For instance, with the subs being so close, if I sit one seat over from the seat that has the sub firing directly into it, I can localize it and the experience isn't even half as good as being in the seat with the sub directly behind you. With the sub directly behind there is pretty much no localization and the slam is WAY better. This could partially be because my room is huge and the couch is no where near the back wall. I think a sub behind each of the 3 primary seats would make every seat feel real similar with no localization.

Unfortunately at the moment I have to have my HT in my living room in a VERY open floor plan with a lot of space to fill (~9,500 cubic feet). Reading Archea's post on what he would do if he had to start from scratch has got me thinking. I already have a JTR Cap like he was talking about, so my questions are:

1. Even though my room is so large, if I were to go with 3 DIY 18" sealed subs - and having them so close, one directly behind each seat, do you think they would have enough output to benefit from the extra extension that most DIY ported subs cant offer?

2. For the most part, I've heard that mixing ported and sealed can be a bear to get them to play nicely with each other. I would still have the Cap up front in the mix and possibly even the FV somewhere in there. But if the 3 nearfield DIY subs work out then I would probably just sell the FV. Do you think mixing the ported and sealed would be to much of a problem? My tweaking skills are still limited compared to most of you around here but I'm getting better the more I do.

3. Or, should I just go with 3 DIY ported subs? I was thinking maybe 3 three Marty cubes, even though extension would only be about 20hz. I do have Crowsons to help out on the low end, but from what little bit of experience I have with extension down to 12hz or so with the FV, actual output from the sub defiantly helps in addition to the transducers. 

4. If I did go with ported DIY, is plugging the ports an option if I wanted to try sealed?

I've never heard a sealed but before, at least not set up in a HT so I don't really know if I'll like them compared to the ported that I'm so used to. I've owned 3 ported subs - an HSU 12'' MK2 (I think that was it), the Rythmik FV15HP, and now the JTR cap and have really enjoyed them. I'm sure I could learn to like the addition of the sealed though if I could get them to play nice together with the Cap. One nice thing about the sealed enclosures is that they would be a fair amount smaller than the ported and would defiantly help with the whole WAF thing. Since this is all in the living room area, the wife has just barely agreed to letting me put one sub behind the couch, much less three! But somehow she has agreed ...she must really love me I guess  She thinks I'm nuts but knows how much I love this crazy hobby. I think if I had my way, I would maybe put 6 sealed subs (2 stacked behind each seat) or maybe some Ghorns nearfield like some of you guys have. As killer as that would be, I know better than to even ask that lol

I know nothing about building subs and have never even considered it until recently after reading a little in the DIY section. It seams like most bass heads around here eventually go in that direction for many reasons. Since I don't really have any wood working skills and the tools I would need, I think that I would go with one of the flatpack options. Surely I can make that work even if I have to start a build thread and ask more dumb noob questions  

If you guys think I should go with the sealed subs, I was thinking about getting the Dayton Audio 18" Ultimax (UM18-22) and cabinet bundles from parts express. If I went with the Marty cubes (was thinking about the next step up - the Johnny but don't think the wife would like the size of these things behind the couch), I would probably get the flatpacks that are now available for these as well and just use the same 18" Ultimax drivers. Then probably power these three with a couple Inukes. Maybe a 6000DSP for the 2 subs and the 3000DSP for the 3rd. Or maybe go with the SI HT18 that's on close out. I think I've read somewhere that the UM18-22 may have a little more output though. That wouldn't be a bad thing for the size of my room. Or there is the SI HST 18" but that is getting a hair spendy for me at this point. If you guys wouldn't mind, I would really appreciate any thoughts you guys have on all this? 

Thanks and sorry for all the noob questions.

BTW, Awesome theater Carp! I love that huge screen you have and being that close must be seriously emersive .....and those huge JTR's  Just freaking awesome!! Really makes me wish I had a dedicated room! Maybe in the next 2-3 years


----------



## Archaea

@SBuger,

I REALLY APPRECIATE that you were willing to try something new and see how it worked for you. That's something missing on these forums as of late, and you'd fit right in with some of the local enthusiasts if you lived around here.

In regards to mixing sealed and ported - post 2352 in the JBL 4722N thread I talk about this. LTD02 removed some of the mystery on this topic for me, and as shown with the FR capture you can successfully integrate ported and sealed. It can work, and well.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...-pair-jbl-4722n-speakers-79.html#post37557298

Do you have the active (amped) or the passive Captivator? If you have the amped, you'll want to find out what order HPF Jeff has integrated on the Cap 2400. I do not know that answer - mine were passive. If you have a passive, --- yeah just buy a second and purchase a mic2200 from Behringer and be done with the front of your room. So this question may change your game plan.

I wouldn't use a set of 20hz ported Marty subs behind your chair. Go with sealed. But, you already know that answer because you said you liked the FV-15HP behind your chair more than the Caps due in part to the lower tune. Having the sealed behind your chair is fantastic - that's all I'll say about that. In my big room using the sealed nearfield is really the only time the deepest frequency reproduction is noticeably detectable --- with your big room (and seating location somewhat in the middle of the room) - it would probably be the same - certainly if you don't buy piles of 18" sealed subwofoofers.

Listen to this track on your nearfield FV15-HP and see if you think you hear port chuffing or labor on the part of the FV-15HP -- if you do then you'll benefit from the sealed instead. If not, and the track is super impressive as it is, then you're probably okay with a second or third FV-15HP for nearfield if that's your preference. But at the pricepoint of entry between 3 sealed AIY nearfield and buying two more FV-15HP --- well -- the AIY option is much cheaper.

Post 2347 - 
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...-pair-jbl-4722n-speakers-79.html#post37554890 
https://soundcloud.com/harry-bercules/harry-bercules-walkens

I don't think it'll matter too much if you go with UM18-22 or SI 18HT for nearfield sealed. The difference is only a dB or two, which is a click or two on the AVR volume. I wouldn't get too worried about the benchracing of the two subs - they'll both work great for the application. If you are buying flatpacks from parts express I think the cost difference was like $30 bucks. At that point then sure go for the UM. If you are building flatpacks or can find a better deal elsewhere, then sometimes the savings can be more and then you'll lean towards the SI HT18. The other consideration is amplifier power expense. If you want to take advantage of that little bit of extra headroom on the UM18 then you'll need more powerful (more expensive) amplifiers. If you go with three sealed behind your main listening space then I would recommend a single amp bridged to power all three. For my UM18-22 I've wired them to 1ohm each and bridged the 3 to a 3 ohm load on the Cerwin Vega CV-5000 - which provides about 5,000 watts for the three UM subs. You could do similar with a less powerful amp on the SI 18HT - perhaps even a Behringer EP4000 amp would get it done - supplying about 2,000 watts bridged for the three SI subs. The couple iNuke plan you mentioned would also work, I'm using that setup for my front five basically (two iNuke 6000s and one iNuke 3000) - but I like the idea of keeping like banks connected to a single amplifier when possible - if only for the OCD compulsion, which is probably silly concern, that I can ensure all subs are getting the exact same signal at the exact same time. (I've tried to test for an issue with this between the iNuke DSP 6000 and iNuke DSP 3000 in my room, and from what I could tell watching impulse response it was identical -- but I'm still a novice in that realm, and my testing method is novice - (FWIW, I've noticed no problems doing this). Here is that thread - http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...nt-inuke-amps-will-time-delays-identical.html) For EQ of the nearfield you can employ a minidsp like carp has, or one of the other EQ tools available, or even Audyssey or your AVR auto EQ toolset may help. The nearfield's SPL output, or more importantly - tactile feedback, won't be a concern. The nearfield 18" subs can overpower you with tactile feedback (as I'm sure the FV-15HP can as nearfield. @stitch1 and I were listening to just my three nearfield Friday night, and he has four SI in his room nearfield, and he noted the same thing. With just the nearfield on you don't need more output -- assuming you are a mortal.


I like your intentions. I think they will work great to conquer your big space and keep you in bass bliss. The one thing I would strongly suggest is that you buy an Omnimic or learn REW --- it is indispensable. I wish I would have purchased one earlier. If someone said to me now I'm going to steal all your AV equipment except one thing and you'll have to replace everything (disregarding cost) - what will you keep? It'd be my Omnimic. You can do so much with it, and learn so much with it, and it, or another EQ discovery tool should be the starting block for a great theater experience IMO.


----------



## carp

Thanks for the comliments Sbuger!! 

Jonathan covered it all, so not much to add... 

As far as nearfield subs go, I like just having 1. Like you say, it can be localized a bit with having a nearfield sub to the side. Since most of the time I'm the only one in the room that cares about having the bass just perfect it doesn't matter that the other seats don't have their own near subs. So, if you are in the same boat then forget about having more than one. However, if you have other people that do care then I would go with 3 and have only the sub behind you on when you are by yourself. 

I like sealed for nearfield for the reasons Jonathan stated + they are smaller so they are easier to fit behind your seat. I honestly haven't tried a ported sub nearfield, but I really don't care if it's more tactile/punchy/whatever because I have all I need with the single SI 18. I've experienced 2 nearfield Othorns, NOTHING is going to be punchier than that. Those subs can make you involuntarily blink your eyes and affect your breathing. As cool and fun as that is, I am still happy with the single 18 and don't find myself day dreaming about more output... yet...  

So, yeah, I would say either SI or Dayton UM (or Dayton HO if they are still around) and then decide if you want 1 for your seat or 1 for each seat.


----------



## carp

Honestly guys, the biggest benefit for me of the nearfield sub is being able to listen to music at much lower levels while still getting the feel of the bass. Saves the ears, doesn't piss off the wife, etc. Love it.


----------



## carp

Well... one step closer to being pushed over the edge for a minidsp 88A with Dirac. My father in law recently bought a new AVR so he gave me back the Yamaha that I gave him many years ago. It's a RXV-595 that I bought in 99. I took a look at the back panel today and noticed that it has the 6 channel inupts for running dvd audio or whatever else so I tried it and sure enough you can use it as a separate amp. That means I wouldn't have to by any extra amplification if I buy the 88A, I could run my center and 4 surrounds with the Yamaha. 

Next step.... making sure the Epson 8350 works ok and try to get 500ish out of it.


----------



## NWCgrad

carp said:


> Thanks for the comliments Sbuger!!
> 
> Jonathan covered it all, so not much to add...
> 
> As far as nearfield subs go, I like just having 1. Like you say, it can be localized a bit with having a nearfield sub to the side. Since most of the time I'm the only one in the room that cares about having the bass just perfect it doesn't matter that the other seats don't have their own near subs. So, if you are in the same boat then forget about having more than one. However, if you have other people that do care then I would go with 3 and have only the sub behind you on when you are by yourself.
> 
> I like sealed for nearfield for the reasons Jonathan stated + they are smaller so they are easier to fit behind your seat. I honestly haven't tried a ported sub nearfield, but I really don't care if it's more tactile/punchy/whatever because I have all I need with the single SI 18. I've experienced 2 nearfield Othorns, NOTHING is going to be punchier than that. Those subs can make you involuntarily blink your eyes and affect your breathing. As cool and fun as that is, I am still happy with the single 18 and don't find myself day dreaming about more output... yet...
> 
> So, yeah, I would say either SI or Dayton UM (or Dayton HO if they are still around) and then decide if you want 1 for your seat or 1 for each seat.


The Dayton HO's are still around, the model nicely in a significantly smaller enclosures than the UM's. Don't know why they have fallen out of favor since the release of the UM's, they are different tools for different jobs.


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> The Dayton HO's are still around, the model nicely in a significantly smaller enclosures than the UM's. Don't know why they have fallen out of favor since the release of the UM's, they are different tools for different jobs.


Do they also do better in smaller enclosures than the SI's? If so that would be perfect for nearfield.


----------



## Archaea

They kind of fell out of favor because they were closer to the equivalent SPL output of the SI (actually less max output than the SI) and yet cost $100 more right? My guess is that most DIY'ers don't care too much about the small difference in the optimal sealed box sizes between the three subs, and are looking for the most output bang per dollar.


From data-bass.com -- SI 18HT can go louder than 18HO across the board.










They lose more ground to the UM18 - which are the same price. UM18 can go louder than HO18 across the board.










Last, UM18 compared to SI 18. UM18 can go louder than SI18HT across the board.











A local guy has a set of the HOs in dual opposed boxes. They are nice subs, and sound great too, and look great too, nothing wrong with that choice either if it becomes a preference for whatever reason.


----------



## NWCgrad

For some size does matter...not to much though around AVS. With the deep discount on the close-out SI HT drivers the cost differential is pretty significant.

The SI's won't be around much longer.


----------



## Archaea

*EDIT: NEVERMIND - this CEA numbers I screenprinted show the HST18. not the 18HT. Followed up with a corrected screenprint after desertdome noticed my error.*


Original post follows...


----


I need someone to interpret the CEA2010 numbers here as they relate to the max SPL burst charts above. These don't seem to jive. When looking at the CEA2010 numbers it appears the SI can produce more SPL at passing levels than the UM18-22 and HO. Is its simply that the UM18-22 can go louder if distortion is unlimited? If so then the SI 18HT might be the better driver still?

@Ricci, or @LTD02, or @Scott Simonian, can you explain this a bit?

FWIW, it also appears the HO can do it's business with quite a bit less power.


Thoughts?


----------



## LTD02

@Archaea 
there are quite a few points to note.
1. the siht18 tested was a prototype an apparently the driver that you can actually buy has significantly different t/s parameters. not sure if power handling and xmax/xmech are different too. just a heads up.
2. some tests were performed with a the k10 amp and some with the k20.
3. the frequency response sweep test is using a sweep and is limited to either thermal compression or when the driver starts making bad noises in the test cab (mostly from excursion). this necessarily means that one region of the response will be limiting the whole thing. on the other hand, the cea numbers are generated with a shaped burst tone. this is not a very demanding done just a few cycles. the point is to really try to push the driver to excursion limits and see how it starts to come undone. it is tested one frequency at a time, increasing in level, until something gives out.
*** the ceo2010 tests ARE NOT meant to be an indicator of what you could expect running the subs *** anything near that power level sustained will cook them no question. most of those are roughly 4 ohm drivers. 150 volts into 4 ohms is ~5600 watts. 
there really isn't a simple answer to the seemingly simple "what is the max output of the driver?" a combination of the measured tests along with modeled design is necessary for predicting what the max output of a driver/cab/amp are likely to do. [I know you know most of that, but I was just spelling it all out for completeness of thought.]


----------



## desertdome

The Stereo Integrity HTS-18D2 shown in the CEA2010 MAX Passing chart is a different driver than the Stereo Integrity HT18D2 you used for the CEA2010 MAX Burst graph.


----------



## Archaea

Darn, my bad. Thanks fellows. I picked the wrong SI for the distortion numbers screen print. The HST 18 I mistakenly put in the previous screenprint was the $600 SI and that explains the confusion.


As follows is the comparison I intended to relay.


----------



## SBuger

Archaea said:


> @SBuger,
> 
> I REALLY APPRECIATE that you were willing to try something new and see how it worked for you. That's something missing on these forums as of late, and you'd fit right in with some of the local enthusiasts if you lived around here.
> 
> In regards to mixing sealed and ported - post 2352 in the JBL 4722N thread I talk about this. LTD02 removed some of the mystery on this topic for me, and as shown with the FR capture you can successfully integrate ported and sealed. It can work, and well.
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...-pair-jbl-4722n-speakers-79.html#post37557298
> 
> Do you have the active (amped) or the passive Captivator? If you have the amped, you'll want to find out what order HPF Jeff has integrated on the Cap 2400. I do not know that answer - mine were passive. If you have a passive, --- yeah just buy a second and purchase a mic2200 from Behringer and be done with the front of your room. So this question may change your game plan.
> 
> I wouldn't use a set of 20hz ported Marty subs behind your chair. Go with sealed. But, you already know that answer because you said you liked the FV-15HP behind your chair more than the Caps due in part to the lower tune. Having the sealed behind your chair is fantastic - that's all I'll say about that. In my big room using the sealed nearfield is really the only time the deepest frequency reproduction is noticeably detectable --- with your big room (and seating location somewhat in the middle of the room) - it would probably be the same - certainly if you don't buy piles of 18" sealed subwofoofers.
> 
> Listen to this track on your nearfield FV15-HP and see if you think you hear port chuffing or labor on the part of the FV-15HP -- if you do then you'll benefit from the sealed instead. If not, and the track is super impressive as it is, then you're probably okay with a second or third FV-15HP for nearfield if that's your preference. But at the pricepoint of entry between 3 sealed AIY nearfield and buying two more FV-15HP --- well -- the AIY option is much cheaper.
> 
> Post 2347 -
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...-pair-jbl-4722n-speakers-79.html#post37554890
> https://soundcloud.com/harry-bercules/harry-bercules-walkens
> 
> I don't think it'll matter too much if you go with UM18-22 or SI 18HT for nearfield sealed. The difference is only a dB or two, which is a click or two on the AVR volume. I wouldn't get too worried about the benchracing of the two subs - they'll both work great for the application. If you are buying flatpacks from parts express I think the cost difference was like $30 bucks. At that point then sure go for the UM. If you are building flatpacks or can find a better deal elsewhere, then sometimes the savings can be more and then you'll lean towards the SI HT18. The other consideration is amplifier power expense. If you want to take advantage of that little bit of extra headroom on the UM18 then you'll need more powerful (more expensive) amplifiers. If you go with three sealed behind your main listening space then I would recommend a single amp bridged to power all three. For my UM18-22 I've wired them to 1ohm each and bridged the 3 to a 3 ohm load on the Cerwin Vega CV-5000 - which provides about 5,000 watts for the three UM subs. You could do similar with a less powerful amp on the SI 18HT - perhaps even a Behringer EP4000 amp would get it done - supplying about 2,000 watts bridged for the three SI subs. The couple iNuke plan you mentioned would also work, I'm using that setup for my front five basically (two iNuke 6000s and one iNuke 3000) - but I like the idea of keeping like banks connected to a single amplifier when possible - if only for the OCD compulsion, which is probably silly concern, that I can ensure all subs are getting the exact same signal at the exact same time. (I've tried to test for an issue with this between the iNuke DSP 6000 and iNuke DSP 3000 in my room, and from what I could tell watching impulse response it was identical -- but I'm still a novice in that realm, and my testing method is novice - (FWIW, I've noticed no problems doing this). Here is that thread - http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...nt-inuke-amps-will-time-delays-identical.html) For EQ of the nearfield you can employ a minidsp like carp has, or one of the other EQ tools available, or even Audyssey or your AVR auto EQ toolset may help. The nearfield's SPL output, or more importantly - tactile feedback, won't be a concern. The nearfield 18" subs can overpower you with tactile feedback (as I'm sure the FV-15HP can as nearfield. @stitch1 and I were listening to just my three nearfield Friday night, and he has four SI in his room nearfield, and he noted the same thing. With just the nearfield on you don't need more output -- assuming you are a mortal.
> 
> 
> I like your intentions. I think they will work great to conquer your big space and keep you in bass bliss. The one thing I would strongly suggest is that you buy an Omnimic or learn REW --- it is indispensable. I wish I would have purchased one earlier. If someone said to me now I'm going to steal all your AV equipment except one thing and you'll have to replace everything (disregarding cost) - what will you keep? It'd be my Omnimic. You can do so much with it, and learn so much with it, and it, or another EQ discovery tool should be the starting block for a great theater experience IMO.


Cool, I'm willing to try just about anything to get the best bass experience possible. Yeah, I wish I did live closer to all you bass junkie HT enthusiasts! That would be fun! Surely there are a few here in Albuquerque, but I'm not aware of any at the moment. 

Thanks for all the detailed info! That helps a lot and makes my decision to go with the sealed pretty easy. I haven't had a chance yet but I'll definitely play that track and see how the FV responds. Although, I'm honestly pretty damn excited to try these sealed subs nearfield and in the mix with the Cap. I'll be sure to go read the post you linked and try to soak it up. 

The Cap 2400 that I have is the active (amped version). I wish I would have went with the passive version and just got an amp to power it - I could have got duals for just a little more than the one active Cap. At the time I didn't think I would ever need anything more than the one Cap and didn't really want to mess with a separate amp to power it. And honestly I was a little intimidated of trying to set up an amp - wire it correctly etc and still am a bit. Hopefully it wont be that hard - the whole wiring it to a certain ohm, bridging, etc probably just seems more complicated than it actually is. Since that seems to be the direction I'm heading now, I wish I would have went with the passive version. O well ...hind site.

Now I just need to figure out witch drivers, flatpacks and amps I want to go with. I like the idea of having one single amp to power all three so maybe I'll go with that Cerwin Vega CV-5000 amp that you are using if I go with the UM-18-22's. Question: If I go with this amp and driver combo, could I have it power just one if I decide to build just one sealed sub first to try it out. I'd probably just have to wire it different right? Or would it still be entirely to much amp for one sub? Sorry I pretty much don't know anything at all about wiring it to correct ohms etc. I guess I better try to educate myself on it a little more. 

I do use REW and a UMIK-1 along with a minidsp that has allowed me to see what's going on and do quite a bit of FR tweaking. These tools have been a major help. I cant image not having these tools when trying to set up subs. Do you think the Omnimic is a better way to go? 

I'm so excited about the up coming new additions that I can hardly stand it lol. Darn because its probably going to take me a couple months to put together the funds to start ordering. 




carp said:


> Thanks for the comliments Sbuger!!
> 
> Jonathan covered it all, so not much to add...
> 
> As far as nearfield subs go, I like just having 1. Like you say, it can be localized a bit with having a nearfield sub to the side. Since most of the time I'm the only one in the room that cares about having the bass just perfect it doesn't matter that the other seats don't have their own near subs. So, if you are in the same boat then forget about having more than one. However, if you have other people that do care then I would go with 3 and have only the sub behind you on when you are by yourself.
> 
> I like sealed for nearfield for the reasons Jonathan stated + they are smaller so they are easier to fit behind your seat. I honestly haven't tried a ported sub nearfield, but I really don't care if it's more tactile/punchy/whatever because I have all I need with the single SI 18. I've experienced 2 nearfield Othorns, NOTHING is going to be punchier than that. Those subs can make you involuntarily blink your eyes and affect your breathing. As cool and fun as that is, I am still happy with the single 18 and don't find myself day dreaming about more output... yet...
> 
> So, yeah, I would say either SI or Dayton UM (or Dayton HO if they are still around) and then decide if you want 1 for your seat or 1 for each seat.


Thanks for your view on the nearfield subs and how many you like behind the seats. Like you, a lot of times I'm the only one in the room that really cares about the bass, so I can see your point about only having one, which is where I'm at now with the FV15HP. When I listen loud and want the best experience possible, I always sit in the center seat with the sub behind that seat. But since that seat doesn't recline I usually end up moving to one of the seats that reclines on either side. Especially at night time movie watching or whenever my back just starts getting tired from sitting straight up. I then just move the sub over behind which ever seat I move to. Not that its hard to move it at all, I just kind of thought it would be cool to already have one behind all three seats  And maybe make the bass a tiny bit better ...or not. So when you say if I have a sub behind each seat and I'm the only one listening to run only the sub behind me and turn the other two off, is that to help minimize localization? Or maybe having to turn the sub behind you down a bit because of the extra output you gain from the combination of the other two subs? It might be preferable to run the one directly behind you as hot as possible before it starts sounding boomy and lopsided compared to the rest of the frequencies. lol ... does that make any since at all? I have a tendency to over think things. 

Geez, I'd love to experience those two nearfiled Othorns your talking about! I've kind of been wondering just how much woofage and what kind it would take to effect your breathing etc like you speak of. What an amazing bass experience that must be! I've seen comments about your bass so I bet your getting somewhere close to that with your setup. 



carp said:


> Honestly guys, the biggest benefit for me of the nearfield sub is being able to listen to music at much lower levels while still getting the feel of the bass. Saves the ears, doesn't piss off the wife, etc. Love it.


As much as I like cranking it up full throttle and getting beat up as much as possible by the bass, I think the nearfield sub may just benefit me the most at lower listening levels as well. Especially at night. Waking the wife up would not go over well at all. I can get away with watching movies at about -30ish MVC and with the combination of the Crowsons and the nearfield, the bass feels huge and every nuance can be felt. It feels like the bass is shaking the whole house and I keep expecting the wife to come marching down the stairs mad as hell because I woke her up. Without the nearfield and Crowsons this would not be possible.


----------



## SBuger

@Archaea

Also, I forgot to ask - Is the fan pretty loud on that Cerwin Vega CV-5000 that your using? If so, did you do a fan mod on it? From what I read it can be pretty annoying on the Inukes and a few others if the amp is in the same room. I can see that driving me nuts when not listening loud.


----------



## carp

SBuger said:


> @Archaea
> 
> Also, I forgot to ask - Is the fan pretty loud on that Cerwin Vega CV-5000 that your using? If so, did you do a fan mod on it? From what I read it can be pretty annoying on the Inukes and a few others if the amp is in the same room. I can see that driving me nuts when not listening loud.


I have one too, it's loud for sure. What I do like about it is the fan doesn't rev up when pushing the amp like the inukes. However, I wouldn't want it in the same room as me, I have it in the next room. I bet there is a fan mod you could do.


----------



## Archaea

The fan on the CV-5000 is too loud to use in the same room comfortably - though you could get by with it in a rack with a glass door without issue. It's not outrageous - it just isn't quiet.


The newer iNuke's aren't nearly as loud as the old ones. The new ones never spin up on me and are fairly quiet. My original one spun up like a tornado in heavy use. The new ones, I personally could get by with in a equipment shelf or rack without a fan mod.

@carp, did @MrSmithers (who isn't on her much anymore) fan mod his CV-5000?


----------



## carp

He did but it's only 3 db's more quiet so it would have to be different fans for it to be quiet enough for in room.


----------



## ambesolman

Stoked21 said:


> .
> 
> Waiting for DTS:X is like waiting for the next solar eclipse. While I recently(currently) am switching from 9.1 to an 11.1 dtsx hdcp2.2 front, it's really not much of a factor today as there is little to no X content. With a June 2016 release date (hold your breath on that one and see how blue you turn), anyone waiting for X is losing tons of valuable Atmos time. And with upgradeable AVR/prepro available today, it's pretty easy to enjoy Atmos knowing you can support X if/when available.



Dts:x has been pushed back to June 2016?!


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still


----------



## Archaea

oh boy --- that means what for the people who are supposed to get the free upgrade from Denon and Marantz?


----------



## beastaudio

NWCgrad said:


> If college football gets anymore political and the Big 12 keeps getting left out of the playoffs (many think it's due to number of TV sets) I may punt over to the NFL.


It's not any better in the NFL bro...just sayin. My poor panthers just beat the seahawks at home. Third win by an away team at the 12th man since Russell Wilson took over. THIRD WIN. They still boil it down to the blown coverage on a single play that gave us the winning touchdown and I haven't heard a good thing said about how we played YET, just about how Seattle screwed up. Nothing about how we stayed with them the whole game, and had constant pressure on Wilson, one of the most squirrely guys in the league. We are now 5-0 and still more underrated than any other 2 loss team in the league. Short of winning a super bowl, and even then, I don't know what we have to do to get some respect. 



Archaea said:


> oh boy --- that means what for the people who are supposed to get the free upgrade from Denon and Marantz?


Means I am pretty happy that I have held on to me 7702 mkI  And have been enjoying atmos/auro all this time....


----------



## stitch1

On Saturday one of the radio blow hards was talking up the Chiefs saying we are so much better than our record states. How we had an fortunate fumble during the Broncos game. Then not too many teams would be able to march into lambeau field and come out with a victory. Followed up by Cincinnati and stating how all of these teams are still undefeated. The Bears was a sad loss and he put blame on having the wind knocked out of us losing Charles. 

I was like YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!! We have played like crap in all of these games. The Denver game was ours to lose. We weren't overly bad but not great either. Then with GB we got schooled HARD. We didn't even play as a team in either the GB or Cinci games. Then the Bears... We started strong and slowly wore down. 

Now this last weekend. Blah. Our own blocker caused West to fumble the ball. How does that happen in the NFL? High school football? Sure, I could see that. College? Maybe once in a blue moon. But THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE?! Come on! 

Sorry.. Your talk of the panthers set me off. Panthers did look good yesterday. I wish I could say the same for our home team.


----------



## Stoked21

stitch1 said:


> On Saturday one of the radio blow hards was talking up the Chiefs saying we are so much better than our record states. How we had an fortunate fumble during the Broncos game. Then not too many teams would be able to march into lambeau field and come out with a victory. Followed up by Cincinnati and stating how all of these teams are still undefeated. The Bears was a sad loss and he put blame on having the wind knocked out of us losing Charles.


Who are the chiefs? Is that someone on the forum?

Take the Crown!!!


----------



## SBuger

Archaea said:


> @SBuger,
> 
> Listen to this track on your nearfield FV15-HP and see if you think you hear port chuffing or labor on the part of the FV-15HP -- if you do then you'll benefit from the sealed instead. If not, and the track is super impressive as it is, then you're probably okay with a second or third FV-15HP for nearfield if that's your preference. But at the pricepoint of entry between 3 sealed AIY nearfield and buying two more FV-15HP --- well -- the AIY option is much cheaper.
> 
> Post 2347 -
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...-pair-jbl-4722n-speakers-79.html#post37554890
> https://soundcloud.com/harry-bercules/harry-bercules-walkens


I tried that song with only the nearfield FV on. Played it at -20 MV in all channel stereo mode with sub ran 10 db hot. Sounded and felt fantastic but there was definitely port chuffing (I have it in one port plugged for lowest extension). With it pushed up against the couch I couldn't really tell it was chuffing until I pulled it out away from the couch for closer inspection. So not really a problem at these listening settings. Increased MV up to -10 and sub sounded like it was starting to struggle a bit. Definitely had stuff rattling in the house and the punch was really good. Cool song! So I guess this means a nearfield 18" or three would probably work great huh  I bet that song at reference with your nearfields is killer! 

Thank you guys for the feedback about the fan noise on the amps. Sounds like the fan on the CV-5000 may be to loud for me, as I'm not sure exactly where the amp will be going. I may be able to stuff it into my component cabinet/speaker stand but I'm afraid it may get to hot even with the back cut out for some ventilation. I have a Buttkicker amp in there and it does get a little hot with heavy use. I may have to put the amp or amps on top of the Cap up front or maybe in the back of the room (dining room) to be on a separate outlet, especially if I do three nearfields.

Since you said a couple more db shouldn't really matter that much on the SI HT18 vs UM-22-18, maybe I should just go with the HT18's and either the Inuke 3000DSP for one and add the 6000DSP for the other two if I go with three subs total. Or the Behringer EP4000 like you mentioned. I've been thinking about maybe just building one sub to begin with and see how it goes with integrating it with the Cap etc. If I did that I could probably go ahead and order soon and save for the other two. It looks like I could save about $80 (of course that's not factoring in shipping) per driver/ and flatpack if I go with the SI HT18 vs the UM-22-18 cabinet bundle. Hopefully the HT18's wouldn't be totally gone in the next month or so though. 

If I go with the SI HT18, do you think I should get the 2 ohm or 4 ohm? Sorry for all the questions, I'm a total noob at all this DIY sub stuff. I promise when I build I'll start a thread in the DIY section for all my questions. I really appreciate all your advice so far. Its helped me tremendously with the decision to go with the sealed for my nearfield builds.


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> It's not any better in the NFL bro...just sayin. My poor panthers just beat the seahawks at home. Third win by an away team at the 12th man since Russell Wilson took over. THIRD WIN. They still boil it down to the blown coverage on a single play that gave us the winning touchdown and I haven't heard a good thing said about how we played YET, just about how Seattle screwed up. Nothing about how we stayed with them the whole game, and had constant pressure on Wilson, one of the most squirrely guys in the league. We are now 5-0 and still more underrated than any other 2 loss team in the league. Short of winning a super bowl, and even then, I don't know what we have to do to get some respect.
> 
> 
> 
> Means I am pretty happy that I have held on to me 7702 mkI  And have been enjoying atmos/auro all this time....



Ha, exactly. I listen to Mike and Mike every morning on my long drive to school. As usual they had Tim Kurkjian on. Now, this is nothing against Greeny and Goldberg, or Tim I like all of those guys. However.... of Tim's segment 99 percent of it was about the Mets/Cubs. The last 30 seconds was about the Royals/Blue Jays. 

Now, one could argue that it's because the Mets played last night and the Royals didn't. Well, I've heard those shows where it's flip flopped too, and all they talk about is the upcoming game for the Mets (or Dodgers or Yankees etc. etc.) and again spend 30 seconds on teams that aren't from either coast or Chicago that played a game the night before.


----------



## NWCgrad

Sports politics sucks, but at least in professional sports they don't have a committee pick the post season participants like college football (at least in basketball they take 68 teams vice 4 for football).


----------



## Archaea

@SBuger, if you go with three and want to bridge them you'd probably not want the iNuke DSP 6000 - as it can't be bridged - so no real need for the extra power. The iNuke DSP 3000 can be bridged though. 




The iNuke DSP 3000 bridged puts out around 2000 watts bridged which is pretty much the same as the EP4000 bridged, which is pretty much the same as a single channel of the iNuke DSP 6000.


2,000 watts should have you pretty much covered for 1 SI 18HT, or 3. With one you'll limit the output, with three, you'll just sell yourself short of a couple dB overall, but it isn't that big of a deal. I suspect you'll have plenty on tap for the nearfield experience by that point anyway.
(if using 1 just use the voltage limiter (easily thought of as a wattage limiter function).


So yeah, if you were experiencing port chuffing on the FV-15HP -- you know what you'll not be hearing with sealed. Do keep in mind that's very specific tracks and material that will do that - it probably isn't often at all in real world content, but it is fun when it's there.








Here's a couple other tracks to try and see how your FV-15HP handles the deep stuff at volume. These are some of my favorites on the nearfield.


Suit & Tie featuring Jay Z - Justin Timberlake (about the first 30 seconds -- you can't even hear anything is happening on typical systems- but there is a ton of stuff going on down low).
Halo - Martin O'Donnell, Michael Salvatori (about 30 seconds in - man this track has bass - I wish I would have had a proper system back when this game was popular!)




I've attached a few files I think are fun that you can also try on your system. The Pomp and Pipe track has some deep pipe organ that the FV-15HP can probably handle without chuffing - check it and see. Then the Ghetto Superstar track has something crazy happen at about 10 seconds or so. The audiocheck.net track starts at 10hz and climbs to 100hz slowly so you can get an idea of what each frequency sounds like.


----------



## SBuger

Thanks so much for the advice and I'll definitely give those tracks a spin!!


----------



## stitch1

Archaea said:


> Halo - Martin O'Donnell, Michael Salvatori (about 30 seconds in - man this track has bass - I wish I would have had a proper system back when this game was popular!)


100% agreed but what do you mean when it was popular? The series is about to get a 5th installment in like a week! They released a full collection last year with all 4 main title games on one disc with Halo one and two both remastered. It's definitely still popular. Microsoft even named their virtual search assistant after Cortana from the game. You and your old @$$ PC games stopped keeping up with what is popular.  /rant


----------



## Archaea

lol...


halo sucked after the first one.


----------



## stitch1

You wouldn't know if you didn't play anything after the first one. Although, I will agree the second one sucked. 3, ODST, Reach, were all great games. I never played 4 so I can't comment but 5 does look really good.


----------



## stitch1

How about Halo Wars the RTS game. Did you ever play that? It was really fun for what it was and I hear they are making a sequel to it.


----------



## Archaea

I bought and played most of the halo fodder. Medicore, forgettable campaigns after the first one though IMO. It was popular at the monthly xbox 360 lans but by the time ODST came out and halo 4 I was done with the series. The multiplayer was sometimes fun for xbox 360 lans on the different revisions, but I can't remember much of the co-op story beyond the first one.

Halo Wars never caught traction, as it tried to harness a gameplay on the consoles controller that is 100% keyboard and mouse territory. That's why all the RTS games on consoles pretty much fail - while RTS is a huge genre for PC. The traditional gamepad controller sucks for that type of gameplay mechanic.

Compare something like Company of Heros on PC to Halo Wars on 360. Or Command and Conquer on PC to the Xbox 360 version. No comparison.

I know you wanted a reason to consider PC gaming, if you like RTS games - that would be an outstanding reason. The warhammer 40k games are outstanding RTS games on PC as well!


----------



## stitch1

Yeah, I played some of the 40K games. They were like wannabe Warcraft games. The Warcraft and Starcraft games were my jam back in the day. Most of the guys in my high school would use Starcraft as an instant messenger because we were all on there after school everyday. 

After we finish Gears 3 we should play through Halo 3. Or at least load it up. It's a pretty fun campaign. The main fall from limelight was Halo 3 came out only on the 360 in September of 07 then Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare came out on all platforms in November and that blew up the FPS genre. So less and less was said of Halo as more people were playing online with Call of Duty. Plus, after Reach Bungie left to start work on Destiny and 343 created Halo 4. 

I just started the podcast called Hunt the Truth this morning. It's canon for the new Halo 5 game. It plays out like a reporter talking about how he was on assignment to write the history of Master Chief. Who is he, what makes him special. He started interviewing people from John's childhood. But he hits a snag. I am only two episodes in and it is SO good. I am hooked. If you are interested in Halo at all check it out. 

I don't want to come across as the biggest Halo fan. But to say a series that brings in over $300 million on it's release week (Halo 4) isn't popular anymore is ludicrous. As far as in game music Halo has always been one of, if not the best. 

Sorry @carp We kinda hijacked your thread.


----------



## beastaudio

stitch1 said:


> You wouldn't know if you didn't play anything after the first one. Although, I will agree the second one sucked. 3, ODST, Reach, were all great games. I never played 4 so I can't comment but 5 does look really good.


4 was a killer story line IMO. It took you through quite a few vehicle runs which are also always fun. I had a blast with it.


----------



## stitch1

See Jonathan ^^^^ Halo is still alive and well. 

The more I listen to Hunt the Truth (I'm now 11 episodes in) the more I want to play 4 and 5. I am going to stop at Gamestop on my way home to pick up 4. I am going to try to blow through it pretty fast so I get get to 5 pretty quick. It seems really interesting.


----------



## beastaudio

stitch1 said:


> See Jonathan ^^^^ Halo is still alive and well.
> 
> The more I listen to Hunt the Truth (I'm now 11 episodes in) the more I want to play 4 and 5. I am going to stop at Gamestop on my way home to pick up 4. I am going to try to blow through it pretty fast so I get get to 5 pretty quick. It seems really interesting.


Does hunt the truth tie the story in from 3? I felt a little lost coming up to H4 as it had been quite a long time since I had played through 3. I had basically forgotten the entire premise.


----------



## stitch1

I believe it is setting up the story for 5.


----------



## Archaea

beastaudio said:


> Does hunt the truth tie the story in from 3? I felt a little lost coming up to H4 as it had been quite a long time since I had played through 3. I had basically forgotten the entire premise.


cause the story is forgettable?  Thanks for making my point!


----------



## stitch1

Archaea said:


> cause the story is forgettable?  Thanks for making my point!



What games in your opinion has a better more rememberable story? I have quite a few that would beat it out but I am interested in what you think is better.


----------



## Archaea

No in seriousness -- this is a list of my favorite games -- all of these games I spent hours and hours on -- all of these games I'd welcome a revist....I may edit this later if I remember something I left out. Bolded games have great stories. There are ones that I enjoyed but didn't make the list - like Assasin's Creed or GTA series, or Half Life 2, or Return to Castle Wofenstien --- many many more -- I enjoyed those games - but don't really feel much desire to play them again. If I had to pick out my favorite game stories of all time it would probably be one of the following - God of War (Incredible mythology story reborn) or perhaps Gears of War (and engaging end of humanity story), or perhaps Company of Heroes (like playing Band of Brothers). I really enjoyed Tomb Raider Legends (the best of the series - explains who Laura Croft is and where she came from) and Return to Krondor (like playing a well written fantasy Novel) as well.


Probably the original God of War wins my vote for best story in a game -- Epic in every sense of the word...


Uncharted is NOT on this list. None of the Uncharteds are. A Hack of a game if you ask me. Boring rehash story and cliché chars, terrible terrible terrible jumping mechanics for a platformer is a fail... 








Console:

The Bigs 2 (Xbox 360)
Blur (Xbox 360)
Burnout Takedown (Xbox)
Culdcept Saga (Xbox 360)
Fight Night Round 3 (Xbox 360)
Fuzion Frenzy (Xbox)
*Gears of War - (Xbox 360)*
*God of War 1, 3 (PS3)*
*Halo (Xbox)*
*Kameo (Xbox 360)*
Kung Foo Chaos (Xbox)
Mortal Kombat (Sega Genesis)
RockBand series (Xbox 360)
Super Mario Brothers(1,2,3,World) (Nintendo)
Super Mario Kart (Super Nintendo)
************************************************ 







PC: 

Carmageddon 2
Carmageddon 2000
*Company of Heroes*
*Company of Heroes 2*
Counter-Strike
Defense Grid
*Diablo*
*Diablo 2*
Doom2
*Far Cry *
*Freedom Force*
*Half-Life*
Heroes of Might and Magic 2
Heroes of Might and Magic 3
Lemmings
Load Runner
*Max Payne*
*Path of Exile*
*Prince of Persia - Sands of Time*
Rampart
*Return to Krondor*
Rise of the Triad
*Rune *
Scorched Earth
Stronghold (Crusader/Warchest)
*Titan Quest*
*Tomb Raider Legend*
Unreal
Unreal Tournament series
Warcraft 2
*Warharmmer 40,000*
Whiplash


----------



## Stoked21

Original Bioshock was one of the best campaigns ever IMO....


----------



## Archaea

That was good, and I enjoyed it too, and I know a lot of people thought it was a game changer --- but it didn't quite make my list of absolute favorite games -- you're right - great story though!


----------



## Stoked21

Bioshock and the original FEAR were the first games that actually made you jump and were frightening and disturbing at times...FEAR on a much cheesier level and the franchise was total **** after the first one. I'm a sucker for great horror flicks and the likes but they're all crap anymore nowadays.


----------



## stitch1

Stoked21 said:


> Original Bioshock was one of the best campaigns ever IMO....



BioShock and BioShock Infinite both definitely make my list.


----------



## carp

stitch1 said:


> Yeah, I played some of the 40K games. They were like wannabe Warcraft games. The Warcraft and Starcraft games were my jam back in the day. Most of the guys in my high school would use Starcraft as an instant messenger because we were all on there after school everyday.
> 
> After we finish Gears 3 we should play through Halo 3. Or at least load it up. It's a pretty fun campaign. The main fall from limelight was Halo 3 came out only on the 360 in September of 07 then Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare came out on all platforms in November and that blew up the FPS genre. So less and less was said of Halo as more people were playing online with Call of Duty. Plus, after Reach Bungie left to start work on Destiny and 343 created Halo 4.
> 
> I just started the podcast called Hunt the Truth this morning. It's canon for the new Halo 5 game. It plays out like a reporter talking about how he was on assignment to write the history of Master Chief. Who is he, what makes him special. He started interviewing people from John's childhood. But he hits a snag. I am only two episodes in and it is SO good. I am hooked. If you are interested in Halo at all check it out.
> 
> I don't want to come across as the biggest Halo fan. But to say a series that brings in over $300 million on it's release week (Halo 4) isn't popular anymore is ludicrous. As far as in game music Halo has always been one of, if not the best.
> 
> Sorry @carp We kinda hijacked your thread.



Ha, you know I don't care.  I keep thinking that someday I should buy something for the basement, because when we hooked up the x-box 1 to it last Christmas break it was pretty cool having it on the big screen. Since then it's been on the upstairs tv.


----------



## b49adam

pretty sweet


----------



## NWCgrad

carp said:


> Ha, you know I don't care.  I keep thinking that someday I should buy something for the basement, because when we hooked up the x-box 1 to it last Christmas break it was pretty cool having it on the big screen. Since then it's been on the upstairs tv.


Outside of Halo I didn't know the names of any of the games on Jonathan's list. I missed the entire gaming era I guess. Played Duke Nukem in my post doc days at KU Med, until we ruined the mouse and the professor got really pissed. That was the end of my gaming days.


----------



## beastaudio

I'd add the original Max Payne to that list for PC. I thought that was a real game-changer first time around. Bullet-time, the pitchblack level, and graphics were way ahead of anything else when that came out. Haven't played any of the others in that franchise since, but I LOVED the first one.


----------



## stitch1

I will second that Beast! I have been told to check out Max Payne 3 on PC. I don't own a PC that is up to snuff for gaming otherwise I would totally give it a go.


----------



## Archaea

Yes I agree Max Payne should be on the list. The story was great too. The intro where you are in a half dream state and stumbling around the house where your family was murdered was intense! The dark comic style presentation was very good.


----------



## Stoked21

Can't believe Burger King Sneak King hasn't made the list. What's wrong with you all?


----------



## Archaea

ha the burger king Xbox360 games. $3.99 with the purchase of a value meal. I forced some of my friends to play the kart racing variant at an Xbox 360 LAN and got dogged for that for years.


----------



## stitch1

BTW I typed up a long list with details last night but when I went to post it AVS had timed out and I lost all of it. I may write something up later today but thinking about some of these games make me want to go back and replay some stuff. 

The ones that really come to mind is Bioshock Infinite, Mass Effect, Red Dead Remediation, the darkness, Fable, Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance and I will even throw Warcraft 3 with its frozen throne expansion on this list because you build up Arthas till he is corrupted by power. The rise and fall of the main protagonist was exceptionally well written for an RTS game.

Like I said, I may post more later. Portal should be on there. The OG Metal Gear was a game changer when it first came out. Last of Us gave be a hard case of the feels and watching the interactions and growth of both Ellie and Joel. The less I say the better. 

Going back to Infinite. It was the first game that made me react to how violent it is. You start slowly taking in this "utopia" called Columbia. A floating city in the sky. You get a sense of why these people choose to inhabit this city and why makes it seem like a great place. But then the city revels its ugly truth about this "utopia" and one of your first real interactions gets very violent very quickly as things get out of hand. Later you meet Elizabeth, a girl that has spent her life trapped in a tower. Over the course of the game you learn a lot about her past, who she is, why shes important and she has quite the story arc of her own. The end to the game blew my mind. Sure you can predict some of what is coming but that is like being able to predict a light on the front of a train. Its a massive ending that I have never seen done in a game before. Its well executed and turns the story into a multiplayer experience as you can't help but want to talk to others about what just happened.


----------



## beastaudio

Does infinite tie into BS1 and BS2? I played through one and loved it, never got two, but infinite looked pretty impressive.


----------



## stitch1

Yes there are ties to the first BioShock. One of the DLC stories takes place there and is definitely worth playing*. *Only after finishing the main story of Infinite should you play the DLC. 

There's really no reason to play the second game unless you really like the game play of the first. If One and three get an A then two gets a C at best.


----------



## beastaudio

Great to know!! I will likely try and scoop it then....Once I get tired of halo 5.....and Battlefront......and Tomb Raider....and, oh who knows, something else.


----------



## Archaea

Hmm I have Last of Us on PS4 - it came with the system and I never tried it. If it's that good I'll give it a spin. I didn't hear much about it. 

Portal as contendor for best game story ever? or just a fav of yours? I know a lot of people loved that game - I tried it, but it just wasn't my thing.

Pretty interesting that of your favorites listed the only two I've ever played are Warcraft 3 and Portal. As a Warcraft and Warcraft 2 player --- and huge original Blizzard fanboy - I fell firmly in the camp that felt like Warcraft 3 was too big of a departure from what we loved with Warcraft 2, and I didn't enjoy WC3 as much as WC2 personally.


----------



## beastaudio

I've heard a ton about portal. Still don't have a clue what it's about. And the dude with no head on the cover art is kinda creepy looking.


----------



## stitch1

Portal and Portal 2 both have great stories. The narrative is told in a unique way and it's more than just skin deep. Sure you have to do some digging for the depth but its there. That's whats cool about interactive entertainment over say passive entertainment. You get out of it what you put in. If you prefer a story to play out in the same way a movie does then just watch a movie. 

I can see your point on Warcraft because there was a pretty big change there. However, that campaign was fantastic. You played as each race getting multiple perspectives. The rise and fall of Arthus. Come on, man! 

Really, Warcraft 3 was better than 1 and 2 in just about EVERY WAY! Ziggurats, how could you not like the ziggurats! Playing as the undead online and building rows on top of rows of ziggurats. haha, great times my friend.


----------



## stitch1

http://www.gamesradar.com/the-best-videogame-stories-ever/

Thats a pretty good list. I forgot to add Knights of the Old Republic on my list. It's kinda the precursor to Mass Effect. I would put GTA5 over San Andres. 

Gears and Halo should get a mention as well. Halo has sooo much lure it's hard to keep up with it all. Jonathan cried the other night while playing Gears 3 so if for nothing else it's story gets you emotionally involved with its characters.


----------



## brian6751

I have tried to play BS:Infinite, I just cant get into it. I dont know why. Its a beautiful game though.


----------



## Archaea

whatever...ha

I think you and I may have different tastes in games Tim. 

No way Warcraft 3 was better than Warcraft 2.  Warcraft 3 tried (and probably successfully) changed the traditional RTS format, by giving hero units. Among my friends I noticed the older gaming crowd (I was in at the time) who started gaming pretty much at the beginning of the whole thing -- who cut their teeth on warcraft and command and conquer and total annihilation disliked 3, and the younger newer guys that had just started joining the LAN parties or started gaming in general more about the time WC3 came out - liked it more than 2. Traditional RTS games - before WC3, let you build up huge armies and roll over your opponent end game - huge battles were spelled out. Aggression wasn't well rewarded. Lots of turtling. WC3 limited unit counts more strictly, and played toward developing the heroes as your winning factor (forcing aggression early to level them up) otherwise you had no shot at victory. My biggest gripe was the unit count restrictions in multiplayer. WC3 story was pretty forgettable in my opinion. I can't remember anything particular about the key storyline notes, or even any particular maps that were outstanding as compared to the others. I enjoyed the game, but B- in my personal opinion.  Warcraft 2? A+

And Knights of the Old Republic - while I recognize that was a game who had many fans, had about the clumsiest interface around, and the movement was clunky and the gameplay was clunky. I'm convinced it was a favorite on xbox because it was a bit of a first on (non nintendo) consoles for that gaming generation (and of course the Star Wars universe didn't hurt either) - but PC gamers had been playing that kind of game since the early days (Kings Quest etc) with much better interfaces, similar stories, and better gameplay. I tried KotOR on PC first and was like --- ewwwww. I gave it about an hour or two and moved on to much better titles.


----------



## stitch1

In hopes to move this out of Carps thread I have created a new one over in the gaming section. Follow the link and join in the discussion...

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/94-home-theater-gaming/2177297-games-great-stories.html


----------



## stitch1

Archaea said:


> I think you and I may have different tastes in games Tim.
> 
> I tried KotOR on PC first and was like --- ewwwww. I gave it about an hour or two and moved on to much better titles.


I agree we tend to enjoy different games and will even agree I wasn't a fan of the hero stuff of Warcraft 3. Go watch the youtube clips of the story though. It was a great story and thats what we were talking about. 

When did you play Kotor? The reason I ask is because I have noticed a theme with your grips with games. You seem to play them WAY later or after newer games come out that change the way games are made. I agree going back now and trying to play a game like Kotor is horrible. The interface just didn't age well. But the way choices were made and the way it affects the narrative was pretty new for the time. 

Fable has the same issue because the way controls have improved since it originally launched on the OG Xbox. I was playing PC back in this same time period and NO games were not THAT much better or even as good as these at that point in time. shortly there after, sure. Before... Not really. Kings Quest and some of the JRPGs had things that were similar going on but Kings Quest had all but died before then. 

Out of the games you have listed what would you say is the best of the best and why? Maybe put that over in the new thread.


----------



## Archaea

I played it...when it was new. I was a Blizzard fan boy remember!
That WC3 game was the beginning of my fanboy fade from Blizzard. Before that, they could do no wrong!

Story was ...okay. Graphics were great at the time. I loved the beautiful cutscenes and can remember being super wowed by some of those!

But story? 

?

?

It must be an age thing....You young pup you...


----------



## stitch1

I was asking about kotor not Warcraft. And yes, I still have my memory old timer


----------



## Archaea

SWKotOR I did play later. But I don't think you could say that's a trend. I historically got the big titles at launch, and then sometimes try to go back and find the gems that I missed if there is a lull in current interesting titles. Heck God of War I played for the first time probably about 5 years ago and it knocked my socks off - turned out to be one of my favorite games of all time - even though I missed it's entry date and popularity by about 5 years! So it's probably just a personal subjective preference in game difference that defines why I wasn't hooked on SWKotOR


----------



## ChldsPlay

stitch1 said:


> I will second that Beast! I have been told to check out Max Payne 3 on PC. I don't own a PC that is up to snuff for gaming otherwise I would totally give it a go.


If Max Payne 3 is the one I remember, then I hated it. I got it for $10 at one point and played it for awhile, but it just felt sluggish and dull. It did not have the feel of the previous versions at all.


----------



## jedimastergrant

Did you get a new PJ? Finally retiring the 8350? It had better be bright!


----------



## stitch1

Name me another game around or before kotor that you could choose to be straight laced Jedi good guy or super evil space nazi sith lord and everything in-between that the story morphed and allowed you to play how you wanted to. The biggest issue with the interface was it was trying to merge live action with turned based game play. This was actually a pretty big deal at the time. Sure it doesn't hold up as well today but a lot of the best games now were inspired by this change. 

Bioware really didn't get it right (imo) till mass effect 2. 

As for Warcraft what games gave you a protagonist that you drive to the throne even killing his own father to get that power and then becoming the antagonist under the power of the legendary weapon. It's interesting to me because look at how many games where your ultimate goal is to get this master sowrd, defeat the bad guy, get the princess, and live happily ever after. In Warcraft you get this amazing sword and defeat your foes but then fall from grace. Plus you get to them play as the orcs, wood elves, and undead getting their perspective. The orc campaign really points out just how missundersood they are. They were made to be slaves and just wanted to be left alone but had their own power struggles. 

It's quite a bit more deep than one would expect from a RTS game. 

I know what a bad taste can be left after being hyped for a game and then getting something else. I feel that might be the case here. Kinda like how I have a strong distaste for Halo 2 based on its story. That doesn't mean it's mulitpayer isn't really good. I just couldn't being myself to enjoy it because of the letdown of the campaign.


----------



## stitch1

ChldsPlay said:


> If Max Payne 3 is the one I remember, then I hated it. I got it for $10 at one point and played it for awhile, but it just felt sluggish and dull. It did not have the feel of the previous versions at all.


Thats no good. I was told to try it on PC because of how good the gun play was on it. My friend was telling me how the baddies actually react pretty realistically to getting shot. Like a head shot drops them no question. Shot in the leg they fall and react correctly instead of being bullet sponges like more games. 

I was really wanting to check it out. But if its as you say I'll probably be pretty disappointed.


----------



## ChldsPlay

stitch1 said:


> Thats no good. I was told to try it on PC because of how good the gun play was on it. My friend was telling me how the baddies actually react pretty realistically to getting shot. Like a head shot drops them no question. Shot in the leg they fall and react correctly instead of being bullet sponges like more games.
> 
> I was really wanting to check it out. But if its as you say I'll probably be pretty disappointed.


I had the PS3 version, so I'm not sure if the PC version is any different. I don't really remember the enemies reacting like that (though head shots usually do that). I only played a few hours into it before I deleted it from my PS3. I just remember the story not grabbing my attention and the action being very monotonous. That and the game would just randomly flash things or color shift because the character is supposed to be drugged up. It got annoying real fast. A lot of people seem to like the game though, so maybe it's just me.


----------



## Archaea

Not too many games even today let you make those types of choices, but Neverwinter Nights on PC beat KotOR by a year (2002 vs. 2003) (also published by bioware) and allowed very similar completely foreign game paths depending on your moral choices in game which effected the outcome. The interface was incredibly better than KofOR and even it was considered as clunky by PC gamers at the time. Both score like 9.5/10 historically on the metocritic type sites.

Black and White on PC let you choose to be good or bad as the God of an island. Your choices dramatically affected gameplay. It was released on PC in 1999. It was probably one of the earlier titles I can remember off the top of my head that let you choose good or bad in a singular story progression. Black and White was fun at the time, and I remember thinking it was something new and unique at that time.

There are titles that are linear or story driven where you are the bad guy and those are as old as gaming itself...but not too many really where you have a singular story and get to make choices that effect the end of the game.


There are some gray area titles

Sacrifice
Fallout series
GTA
Magic Carpet 2
Sim City - 



Point is KotOR wasn't the first or the best to let you choose to be a epic hero or a devious villian.


----------



## beastaudio

I basically bought my ps3 purely for god of war. That is how much I loved that game. While not close to the level of the first installment, GoW 2 and 3 were also a lot of fun.


----------



## stitch1

Great picks of games there Jonathan. I loved neverwinter it was way more like the baldur gates games and was a more typical RPG for the time period. 

But Black & White! That was my JAM! I kinda forgot about it. That was Peter Molyneux big game before he made the Fable series.

You are listing games that are the first iteration of the games I listed. Shows we are thinking alike. But in both cases I would say the the newer games were better than the originals. 

Neverwinter to Kotor to Mass Effect and Mass Effect is always going to get the nod. 

Magic Carpet to Black and White to fable. Fable again is going to get my vote. BTW Magic Carpet was a Molyneux game as well. 

The point I was making with Kotor is that it was moving the good or evil mechanics forward. It became a big fad after that. Now its built into a lot of games and the quick decision wheel they used in the dialog options has come a long way. Plus the game was mostly open world unlike most games that came before it. It was doing a lot of things right. 

Fallout is still clunky so but it can be put in the same vain as Kotor. You could add the The Elder Scrolls games in there as well. 

GTA I am going to have to ask when were you ever able to choose good or bad wile playing the story? I never was given a choice. Unless the choice is to turn it off or be bad. I love most of those games though. 

Sim City... Good times. I only ever build on islands I would build it all up then destroy. Point awarded good sir. 

The Sims should be added. At school I was in an IT class with this girl that would play that through out the class every day. I would "help" her by removing doors trapping sims in rooms or taking the ladder out of the pools. Yes you can be pretty evil in that game. Wahhahaah


----------



## NWCgrad

Hey @carp, how about those Royals. Cain scoring from first was unbelievable!!!! 

Have to get another ALCS Championship shirt to wear when I go to Baltimore.


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> Hey @carp, how about those Royals. Cain scoring from first was unbelievable!!!!
> 
> Have to get another ALCS Championship shirt to wear when I go to Baltimore.



He reminds me of Willie Wilson. Both of those guys, when they get into top gear running multiple bases at once are the fastest I think I've ever seen.

Now when it comes to running from one base to the next we have 2 guys that are faster than Cain, Dyson and Gore. 

What an exciting team to watch!


----------



## jlpowell84

SBuger said:


> @Archaea
> 
> Also, I forgot to ask - Is the fan pretty loud on that Cerwin Vega CV-5000 that your using? If so, did you do a fan mod on it? From what I read it can be pretty annoying on the Inukes and a few others if the amp is in the same room. I can see that driving me nuts when not listening loud.


Certainly don't forget about the Peavey IPR2-7500 & and brother Crest Pro Lite 7.5 Beast did a fan mod on his Peavey I believe. Besides the design runs very cool and efficient and fans don't "shouldn't" come on very often. That is on paper and not real world experience...


----------



## beastaudio

jlpowell84 said:


> Certainly don't forget about the Peavey IPR2-7500 & and brother Crest Pro Lite 7.5 Beast did a fan mod on his Peavey I believe. Besides the design runs very cool and efficient and fans don't "shouldn't" come on very often. That is on paper and not real world experience...


The fans on the peavey stay on all the time. They are variable though and once replaced with a quiter fan, you won't be hearing them unless you are seriously cranking for a while. Even then, they quiet back down pretty fast once you turn it back down.


----------



## NWCgrad

Inside the park homerun in first game, Cueto pitched full game tonight. Great start to the series.

4 AM will come early tomorrow. I'm turning into @popalock!


----------



## Archaea

Royals looked like a World Champion team tonight!


----------



## popalock

NWCgrad said:


> Inside the park homerun in first game, Cueto pitched full game tonight. Great start to the series.
> 
> 4 AM will come early tomorrow. I'm turning into @popalock!



3:45am every day... You get out what you put in!


Whhhooooaaaa....


----------



## beastaudio

popalock said:


> 3:45am every day... You get out what you put in!
> 
> 
> Whhhooooaaaa....


2:45am EVERY NIGHT.... you get out what you sleep in!


----------



## NWCgrad

popalock said:


> 3:45am every day... You get out what you put in!
> 
> 
> Whhhooooaaaa....


That's to hardcore for me, by Friday I'm dead.



beastaudio said:


> 2:45am EVERY NIGHT.... you get out what you sleep in!


Combine the two and it's one hour of sleep a night.


----------



## beastaudio

NWCgrad said:


> That's to hardcore for me, by Friday I'm dead.
> 
> 
> 
> Combine the two and it's one hour of sleep a night.


There have been times when Austin and I have talked before I went to bed, and when he had just gotten up for the am. Pretty funny actually.


----------



## d_c

beastaudio said:


> There have been times when Austin and I have talked before I went to bed, and when he had just gotten up for the am. Pretty funny actually.



Night-night pillow talk - super bromantic!


----------



## beastaudio

d_c said:


> Night-night pillow talk - super bromantic!


Nah it's more B is hopped up on Miller Lite and slurring words, and Popalock is barely awake and having trouble keeping up with my alcohol fueled energy levels.


----------



## ambesolman

d_c said:


> Night-night pillow talk - super bromantic!



It probably goes something like this...

Popalock: Whatcha doin?

Beast: In the theater chillin. Thinking about subs. You?

Popalock: Same. Bout to crank it to help me wake up.

Beast: I've got mine playing low level sine waves to give me a massage.

Popalock: mmm...sine wave massage



Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still


----------



## NWCgrad

What a beautiful day in KC...can't be there but watching on the MLB cbannel. 500K turnout for the parade is indescribable.

Now it's the Chiefs turn to step up!


----------



## jlpowell84

Metallica @ Super Bowl Carp  Just heard announcement on way home from Ferall on the bench nightly sports talk. Should be a nice change of pace.


----------



## beastaudio

Oh man, that'll be awesome!


----------



## carp

jlpowell84 said:


> Metallica @ Super Bowl Carp  Just heard announcement on way home from Ferall on the bench nightly sports talk. Should be a nice change of pace.



Woah!!! I hope they play some pre-Black stuff... won't have time to play more than half a song from back then though!! Well... those that attend my party this year will know they are in for a VERY loud half time!!


----------



## Brian Fineberg

carp said:


> Woah!!! I hope they play some pre-Black stuff... won't have time to play more than half a song from back then though!! Well... those that attend my party this year will know they are in for a VERY loud half time!!


It's not halftime. 

They are playing in a nearby stadium. Not exactly, they're performing the night before the game at AT&T Park, where the Giants play


----------



## jlpowell84

Brian Fineberg said:


> It's not halftime.
> 
> They are playing in a nearby stadium. Not exactly, they're performing the night before the game at AT&T Park, where the Giants play


Really  The way Farell was talking he made it sound like it was halftime. I tuned in on my way home couple nights ago so I didn't hear the beginning. But the way he was talking made it sound like halftime fro sure. I guess maybe Britney Spears this year?


----------



## Brian Fineberg

jlpowell84 said:


> Really  The way Farell was talking he made it sound like it was halftime. I tuned in on my way home couple nights ago so I didn't hear the beginning. But the way he was talking made it sound like halftime fro sure. I guess maybe Britney Spears this year?


yeah a former student of mine is a producer for the company that runs the Large scoreboards...for big events (i.e. superbowl, final four, football in europe..) so he is priivy to this info...he said nope not playing the halftime...so thats a huge bummer


----------



## beastaudio

We'll end up with The weeknd or Biebs (Jon breaks into his happy dance). Which surprises me honestly. Why they choose young pop artists that lack talent almost completely, when the majority of those actually watching the super bowl are middle aged men that would much rather see someone like Metallica, AC/DC, Eric Clapton, Eagles. Heck, they play guns n roses before basically every sporting event that ever takes place, but we all know that would take an act of congress....


----------



## NWCgrad

...not even Congress is as dysfunctional as Axl Rose (& that is saying something).


----------



## carp

Sold my 8350 tonight, now I have 500 more towards the mini 88A. I'm going to try to hold off... but probably won't be able to. I'd like to see what Brandon thinks of his first! 
@beastaudio


----------



## Scott Simonian

Oh boy.


----------



## WereWolf84

carp said:


> Sold my 8350 tonight, now I have 500 more towards the mini 88A. I'm going to try to hold off... but probably won't be able to. I'd like to see what Brandon thinks of his first!
> 
> @beastaudio


what's the replacement projector for your 8350?


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Oh boy.


----------



## carp

WereWolf84 said:


> what's the replacement projector for your 8350?


Back in March I bought a Epson 3500, I wanted to keep the 8350 since we have outdoor movie nights sometimes at a friends place but I figured I could just take my 3500 down if need be so I decided to sell.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


>



Oh... I'm just convinced that neither you nor Brandon will really like the 88A. I shouldn't say that but it's too late now.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Oh... I'm just convinced that neither you nor Brandon will really like the 88A. I shouldn't say that but it's too late now.


Ahh, I see.  You may be right but I'm so curious since it has almost 100% approval. I figure I could sell it if I don't love it. This whole impulse correction thing combined with being able to EQ below Schroeder and leave above alone has me intrigued.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> This whole impulse correction thing combined with being able to EQ below Schroeder and leave above alone has me intrigued.


Haha, right. That's exactly what I'd do with it if I had one.


----------



## lbrown105

Scott Simonian said:


> Haha, right. That's exactly what I'd do with it if I had one.


I think its a great option to have as far as what freq you want to correct. I have read the theory on not correcting above schroeder freq, but I would suggest different ranges. I ultimately got the best IR and subjective sound by correcting the full range. Funny thing is I hardly corrected the FR and more or less followed the native in room response of my 212's, however the IR changed dramatically. Just my experience.


----------



## Stoked21

carp said:


> Sold my 8350 tonight, now I have 500 more towards the mini 88A. I'm going to try to hold off... but probably won't be able to. I'd like to see what Brandon thinks of his first!
> 
> @beastaudio


Out of curiosity. Why the 88A with analog in/out? Why not nanoavr dl with HDMI simplicity? 

Both are full Dirac. Curiously the 88a is before prepro while DL is after prepro. I've been half heartedly considering the investment in one or the other. 8 chs has dissuaded me as I need 13 for 11.2. Figured waiting til next year and maybe they'd support more chs? Do you just ignore the extra channels for now or have to daisy chain 2?


----------



## raynist

Stoked21 said:


> Out of curiosity. Why the 88A with analog in/out? Why not nanoavr dl with HDMI simplicity?
> 
> Both are full Dirac. Curiously the 88a is before prepro while DL is after prepro. I've been half heartedly considering the investment in one or the other. 8 chs has dissuaded me as I need 13 for 11.2. Figured waiting til next year and maybe they'd support more chs? Do you just ignore the extra channels for now or have to daisy chain 2?


What is the advantage of having Dirac before or after the pre-pro?


----------



## Brian Fineberg

Stoked21 said:


> Out of curiosity. Why the 88A with analog in/out? Why not nanoavr dl with HDMI simplicity?
> 
> Both are full Dirac. Curiously the 88a is before prepro while DL is after prepro. I've been half heartedly considering the investment in one or the other. 8 chs has dissuaded me as I need 13 for 11.2. Figured waiting til next year and maybe they'd support more chs? Do you just ignore the extra channels for now or have to daisy chain 2?


no....the 88a is AFTER prepro


----------



## Stoked21

Brian Fineberg said:


> no....the 88a is AFTER prepro


Sorry. I reversed that. Why is 88a after prepro but nano DL is before?
Advantage of 88 that I see is it eliminates HDMI 1.4 concerns. Their website doesn't really draw any distinction between the 2 units outside of obvious physical interface.

Obviously u can't run HDMI out of avr for correction since it's the onboard amps etc. and vice versa the 88a has to be after prepro as it needs the signal to be decoded and fed in as multich. I guess my question is more theory as to benefits of correction before or after prepro.


----------



## Brian Fineberg

Stoked21 said:


> Sorry. I reversed that. Why is 88a after prepro but nano DL is before?
> Advantage of 88 that I see is it eliminates HDMI 1.4 concerns. Their website doesn't really draw any distinction between the 2 units outside of obvious physical interface.
> 
> Obviously u can't run HDMI out of avr for correction since it's the onboard amps etc. and vice versa the 88a has to be after prepro as it needs the signal to be decoded and fed in as multich. I guess my question is more theory as to benefits of correction before or after prepro.


gotcha..

in the 88a thread they explain why...I cant remember the reasoning though

i think its so anything they feed through the avr is corrected....but again cant 100% remmeber


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Sold my 8350 tonight, now I have 500 more towards the mini 88A. I'm going to try to hold off... but probably won't be able to. I'd like to see what Brandon thinks of his first!
> 
> @beastaudio





carp said:


>


Yea.... I mean chopping up a ton of perfectly good XLR cables, not being able to adjust your trims on the fly using the AVR/Pre, and another added piece in the chain....

I mean I am going to try it out. I honestly hope I come to the same conclusion as the guys that have used it and found it to be cool, but not necessarily needed. Craig John and Doc both have dedicated (as you all know) a good amount of time getting their rooms right and well treated. They both seem to be of the same ilk where they don't see the added complexity as necessarily a positive. I sat and listened to music in pure direct mode last night for about an hour. I really don't even need the 88a already. I was in heaven. I could sell it and be halfway to two othorns... I mean, I'm not sayin' I'm just sayin'.



Brian Fineberg said:


> gotcha..
> 
> in the 88a thread they explain why...I cant remember the reasoning though
> 
> i think its so anything they feed through the avr is corrected....but again cant 100% remmeber


Yup. The digital realm using the nano is a good plan for those that only have basically two sources, but otherwise, you have to basically pick and choose which you want to have going through the nano, while with the 88a, anything you have coming into your Processor will be corrected on the end-around.


----------



## Scott Simonian

beastaudio said:


> I could sell it and be halfway to two othorns... I mean, I'm not sayin' I'm just sayin'.



Go on.


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Yea.... I mean chopping up a ton of perfectly good XLR cables, not being able to adjust your trims on the fly using the AVR/Pre, and another added piece in the chain....
> 
> I mean I am going to try it out. I honestly hope I come to the same conclusion as the guys that have used it and found it to be cool, but not necessarily needed. Craig John and Doc both have dedicated (as you all know) a good amount of time getting their rooms right and well treated. They both seem to be of the same ilk where they don't see the added complexity as necessarily a positive. I sat and listened to music in pure direct mode last night for about an hour. I really don't even need the 88a already. I was in heaven. I could sell it and be halfway to two othorns... I mean, I'm not sayin' I'm just sayin'.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. The digital realm using the nano is a good plan for those that only have basically two sources, but otherwise, you have to basically pick and choose which you want to have going through the nano, while with the 88a, anything you have coming into your Processor will be corrected on the end-around.


Woah, adjusting sub trim on the avr will no longer do anything if using the 88A? Hmmmm....... that's a huge minus for me.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Yes it will. The 88A does not magically disable the controls on the gear prior to it.


----------



## raynist

beastaudio said:


> Yup. The digital realm using the nano is a good plan for those that only have basically two sources, but otherwise, you have to basically pick and choose which you want to have going through the nano, while with the 88a, anything you have coming into your Processor will be corrected on the end-around.


Would an hdmi splitter work, or I guess you could get two units.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Woah, adjusting sub trim on the avr will no longer do anything if using the 88A? Hmmmm....... that's a huge minus for me.


Meh, like Scott said, you still can, but most guys choose to make their adjustments in the dirac as opposed to the unit. Will it make a difference? No not likely, so I guess you very well could. Definitely don't want to be adjusting distance settings tho...



raynist said:


> Would an hdmi splitter work, or I guess you could get two units.


Splitter, yes likely, two separate units? I wouldn't.


----------



## carp

I had @Stoked21 (who, BTW, has GREAT taste in music!!) over today for a demo. So much fun!! It's been awhile since I cranked up the bass for movies in here and every time I do it makes me think I should watch movies more often! 

We watched scenes from John Wick and Fury Road and a few from a demo disk (Iron Man Jericho, Master and Commander, Flight of the Phoenix, etc.).

Tonight we are having some friends over to watch Fury Road and Jurassic World, should be fun. Heading out now for the Peanuts movie with our girls, should be a bass-fest!!


----------



## Stoked21

carp said:


> I had @Stoked21 (who, BTW, has GREAT taste in music!!) over today for a demo. So much fun!! It's been awhile since I cranked up the bass for movies in here and every time I do it makes me think I should watch movies more often!
> 
> We watched scenes from John Wick and Fury Road and a few from a demo disk (Iron Man Jericho, Master and Commander, Flight of the Phoenix, etc.).
> 
> Tonight we are having some friends over to watch Fury Road and Jurassic World, should be fun. Heading out now for the Peanuts movie with our girls, should be a bass-fest!!


Betty Ford should have a program for people with that much bass!! 
That was absolutely insane (in an awesome way!). I'm sure you heard me laughing non-stop. Like a roller-coaster.
Thanks for sharing!


----------



## carp

Stoked21 said:


> Betty Ford should have a program for people with that much bass!!
> That was absolutely insane (in an awesome way!). I'm sure you heard me laughing non-stop. Like a roller-coaster.
> Thanks for sharing!


Next time we'll have to throw on some Dream Theater and Metallica concert disks!!


----------



## jlpowell84

Carp, you have the 4 cu ft SI cabs from DIYSG correct? How many watts does each driver get from your CV-5000?

I am planning on going 22x22 for depth and width but was going to extend height of front baffle to 30". Takes internal volume to 6.93 cu ft before driver and bracing. Amp is Crest Pro Lite 7.5 so each driver will get 1000+. They are behind seat near field cabs (two for sure, other two could end up on rear wall) so I don't imagine I will hardly ever get to damaging limits. Just curious if anyone disagrees for any reason...


----------



## Scott Simonian

On paper they get 625w each with four on each channel in 2ohm.

Most likely not even that much, really.


----------



## jlpowell84

Scott Simonian said:


> On paper they get 625w each with four on each channel in 2ohm.
> 
> Most likely not even that much, really.


I have 2 channels, an entire 7.5 for the SI 18's. I bought two of the Crest amps, one for the SI's and one for the FTW 21's. Planned on both running in 4 ohm mode with SI's getting around 1kw and FTW's getting around 2kw.


----------



## Archaea

Scott can the SI take 1000 watts in a seven foot cubic seal box without fear of bottoming out? That's a big cab. If anybody knows on here you might be the one. I suspect that's too much power in a cab that big for that driver. It may need to rely on a smaller cabs airspring to help limit excusion at 1k watts per.


----------



## desertdome

Scott Simonian said:


> On paper they get 625w each with four on each channel in 2ohm.


Audiophile A: Why do you have your amp on top of a piece of poster board?
Audiophile B: I hear that, on paper, it produces a lot more power. Cheapest tweak ever.
Audiophile A: Did you flip the paper over right away?
Audiophile B: . . . No, why?
Audiophile A: I think you're supposed to turn the page . . . or maybe its turn over a new leaf? Something like that.
Audiophile B: You can't go by everything you hear.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Archaea said:


> Scott can the SI take 1000 watts in a seven foot cubic seal box without fear of bottoming out? That's a big cab. If anybody knows on here you might be the one. I suspect that's too much power in a cab that big for that driver. It may need to rely on a smaller cabs airspring to help limit excusion at 1k watts per.



Yes, it would be fine. Actually, that's like... a perfect match. 6-8cuft and 1kw per HT18 is ideal. You go a little over rated Xmax 25hz and down but still well within Xmech. Would work just fine, I wouldn't worry about any damage. Chances are less power than 1kw are ever applied in real world use.

@desertdome LOL! I'm going to put paper under all of my amps. Best value upgrade, ever!


----------



## jlpowell84

Scott Simonian said:


> Yes, it would be fine. Actually, that's like... a perfect match. 6-8cuft and 1kw per HT18 is ideal. You go a little over rated Xmax 25hz and down but still well within Xmech. Would work just fine, I wouldn't worry about any damage. Chances are less power than 1kw are ever applied in real world use.
> 
> @desertdome LOL! I'm going to put paper under all of my amps. Best value upgrade, ever!


Thats good news  Perhaps I'll kick depth to 23" to give a final of 30x22x23 which gives 7.2 cu ft before driver and bracing 

Just itching to get some real bass again. All I have right now is a Wharfedale 10" sub in living room


----------



## carp

My subs are all seriously under-powered, including my nearfield sub. Sometimes I consider rectifying the situation.... but then I remember that I'd only get 3 more db's at best and I think for me it's safer if I'm wayyyy amp limited - well, actually breaker limited. 

Jlpowell, other than Nathan (N8DOGG) I have never heard of anyone damaging a SI 18 and lots of guys give them 1200 watts or more.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> My subs are all seriously under-powered, including my nearfield sub. Sometimes I consider rectifying the situation.... but then I remember that I'd only get 3 more db's at best and I think for me it's safer if I'm wayyyy amp limited - well, actually breaker limited.
> 
> Jlpowell, other than Nathan (N8DOGG) I have never heard of anyone damaging a SI 18 and lots of guys give them 1200 watts or more.


Same. That also goes for replacing the HT18's for beefier drivers. Makes sense for guys who can only have


----------



## carp

Merry Christmas guys.

My wife aren't big on getting each other much for Christmas since it's mostly for the kids but I have to say I love what she got me this year. 




Goes well with the Metallica wall IMO. 






I put them up high so that the picture of the parade was closer to eye level. I've seen pictures online of this but it's not the same because with this large picture you can see all the people that are lined up along the parade route from the Sprint Center all the way down to Union Station. Streets exploding with people, so crazy.


----------



## carp

Close ups:


----------



## Frohlich

carp said:


> Close ups:


Awesome addition to the room!!!! Your boys had a great year.

My wife also knows that anything for the man cave that is Buckeye's related goes a long ways with me.


----------



## NWCgrad

Awesome gifts!


----------



## Archaea

nice looking prints carp!


----------



## ambesolman

That's cool carp. I actually met Ned Yost a few weeks ago. He owns the land next door to my Inlaws' farm in Greenville, Ga. It was me, my father in law, Ned and another guy just chillin in his big ass shed watching football and talking shop while staring at this big wall of 20+ deer heads hanging above the tv. Really nice and down to earth guy.


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still


----------



## carp

ambesolman said:


> That's cool carp. I actually met Ned Yost a few weeks ago. He owns the land next door to my Inlaws' farm in Greenville, Ga. It was me, my father in law, Ned and another guy just chillin in his big ass shed watching football and talking shop while staring at this big wall of 20+ deer heads hanging above the tv. Really nice and down to earth guy.
> 
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still


That's really cool, I've heard that about him. Any baseball talk?


----------



## ambesolman

carp said:


> That's really cool, I've heard that about him. Any baseball talk?



Oh yeah. Baseball, hunting with his buddy Jeff Foxworthy (who I think used to own his land), football, saw a pic of last year's championship ring (pimp), his old lady redesigning the house they want to build there because she went overboard the first time, the deer heads...Just a regular guy who you'd never know was successful in major league baseball unless you knew who he was or had to google him like I did.


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still


----------



## carp

I bought a couple of chairs at Costco yesterday. Last weekend I was there and saw them and figured they wouldn't be too great until I sat in them. I was shocked at how comfortable they are. For a long time I have been wanting to replace my lazy boy loveseat and was considering a space saving design loveseat so that you could walk around both sides of my front row. I have 4 feet of clearance on the left row but very little on the right. 

Then on Sunday I was doing some digging and I ran across this post from Jeff Parkinson (bigmouthindc):

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/32-th...ower-recliner-499-99-good-4.html#post39885562

"from my study of the history of theater chairs in Costco stores, it is a once in a lifetime opportunity. You will never see the same vendor and model in the store again, if you think you will wait until the next time it is available that may be a long wait. On-line it seams that the Abbyson Living brand has some longevity, but the sale pricing cycles between models and may never return to a particular model. Bottom line waiting is not advised if you see something you like."

So... I figured I'd go back up to Costco and try them again. Again they were very comfortable. So I said screw it and bought 2 of them. 

At first I was thinking about removing the left arms so that I could have that space to walk around the right side of my front row. In the end though I like being able to seperately angle the chairs so that they all face the screen and I like the curved row for gatherings because it's easier to talk to people. Also, having the seperate arm rests for each person is nice. However.... that far right seat will suck acoustically but there is ALWAYS plenty of people at a gathering that don't give a crap about that anyway. 

My kids love them, so that's good enough for me. 

As far as the comfort, I don't like them nearly as much as my Row One Manhattan chairs. The Row One chairs have a shorter head rest but still plenty tall for me at 6' 1" and they work perfectly for my head in that when even fully reclined I can easily see the screen and wouldn't even use a motorized head rest function even if they had it. The RO's are very wide, not that the Costco chairs aren't pretty wide but it's a noticeable difference. They Row One without arms measures 25.5 inches wide. 

Also, the chair at the store was much more comfortable (still not as good as the Row One) than the new chairs so I do need to get them broken in. 

All that said I do like them very much and I think it's a good buy especially with power recline and a huge storage compartment in each left arm and a 3 prong power outlet and 2 usb chargers in each right arm. The cup holders are a bit smaller than my Row One chairs, but who cares, they will EASILY fit a can of beer and really that's all that matters right?
@BIGmouthinDC @Randy Bessinger

Jeff, I know you weren't crazy about the comfort I'm wondering if you tried a chair that wasn't broken in, the difference in comfort is huge between what I have and the store chair!! I'll need to have someone big like @Archaea over more often just so he can break in my chairs, haha! Anyway, thanks for your post on that thread it pushed me over the edge and I really do like these chairs a lot, just have to break 'em in. 

I really wish I could afford 2 more chairs like the ones I've had but I hate to admit how much I paid for them... way more than the Costco chairs  but still worth it since I spend way to much time on my sorry ass down here. 

Randy, I saw you in that thread about the Cosco chairs, did you get any?


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> I bought a couple of chairs at Costco yesterday. Last weekend I was there and saw them and figured they wouldn't be too great until I sat in them. I was shocked at how comfortable they are. For a long time I have been wanting to replace my lazy boy loveseat and was considering a space saving design loveseat so that you could walk around both sides of my front row. I have 4 feet of clearance on the left row but very little on the right.
> 
> Then on Sunday I was doing some digging and I ran across this post from Jeff Parkinson (bigmouthindc):
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/32-th...ower-recliner-499-99-good-4.html#post39885562
> 
> "from my study of the history of theater chairs in Costco stores, it is a once in a lifetime opportunity. You will never see the same vendor and model in the store again, if you think you will wait until the next time it is available that may be a long wait. On-line it seams that the Abbyson Living brand has some longevity, but the sale pricing cycles between models and may never return to a particular model. Bottom line waiting is not advised if you see something you like."
> 
> So... I figured I'd go back up to Costco and try them again. Again they were very comfortable. So I said screw it and bought 2 of them.
> 
> At first I was thinking about removing the left arms so that I could have that space to walk around the right side of my front row. In the end though I like being able to seperately angle the chairs so that they all face the screen and I like the curved row for gatherings because it's easier to talk to people. Also, having the seperate arm rests for each person is nice. However.... that far right seat will suck acoustically but there is ALWAYS plenty of people at a gathering that don't give a crap about that anyway.
> 
> My kids love them, so that's good enough for me.
> 
> As far as the comfort, I don't like them nearly as much as my Row One Manhattan chairs. The Row One chairs have a shorter head rest but still plenty tall for me at 6' 1" and they work perfectly for my head in that when even fully reclined I can easily see the screen and wouldn't even use a motorized head rest function even if they had it. The RO's are very wide, not that the Costco chairs aren't pretty wide but it's a noticeable difference. They Row One without arms measures 25.5 inches wide.
> 
> Also, the chair at the store was much more comfortable (still not as good as the Row One) than the new chairs so I do need to get them broken in.
> 
> All that said I do like them very much and I think it's a good buy especially with power recline and a huge storage compartment in each left arm and a 3 prong power outlet and 2 usb chargers in each right arm. The cup holders are a bit smaller than my Row One chairs, but who cares, they will EASILY fit a can of beer and really that's all that matters right?
> 
> @BIGmouthinDC
> @Randy Bessinger
> 
> Jeff, I know you weren't crazy about the comfort I'm wondering if you tried a chair that wasn't broken in, the difference in comfort is huge between what I have and the store chair!! I'll need to have someone big like @Archaea over more often just so he can break in my chairs, haha! Anyway, thanks for your post on that thread it pushed me over the edge and I really do like these chairs a lot, just have to break 'em in.
> 
> I really wish I could afford 2 more chairs like the ones I've had but I hate to admit how much I paid for them... way more than the Costco chairs  but still worth it since I spend way to much time on my sorry ass down here.
> 
> Randy, I saw you in that thread about the Cosco chairs, did you get any?


I really liked them too and if I was ready to get new seating, would have picked up a couple as well. My wife has been complaining about our current seating, but other items are going to the top of the list.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Nice upgrade!


----------



## carp

I will say that I don't understand leather. When I was shopping for chairs a year and a half ago it seemed that HT chair leather were like like snowflakes, none of them felt the same. 

My Row One chairs were "top grain leather" and so are these Costco chairs but as you can see in the pictures they are a lot different and the leather on the Row One chairs has a lot better feel to it.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Hmm. Yeah.

I can't offer any useful advice but leather does indeed come in many, many qualities. Just like everything in life.

The good stuff will always cost ya.


----------



## Randy Bessinger

carp said:


> I bought a couple of chairs at Costco yesterday. Last weekend I was there and saw them and figured they wouldn't be too great until I sat in them. I was shocked at how comfortable they are. For a long time I have been wanting to replace my lazy boy loveseat and was considering a space saving design loveseat so that you could walk around both sides of my front row. I have 4 feet of clearance on the left row but very little on the right.
> 
> Then on Sunday I was doing some digging and I ran across this post from Jeff Parkinson (bigmouthindc):
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/32-th...ower-recliner-499-99-good-4.html#post39885562
> 
> "from my study of the history of theater chairs in Costco stores, it is a once in a lifetime opportunity. You will never see the same vendor and model in the store again, if you think you will wait until the next time it is available that may be a long wait. On-line it seams that the Abbyson Living brand has some longevity, but the sale pricing cycles between models and may never return to a particular model. Bottom line waiting is not advised if you see something you like."
> 
> So... I figured I'd go back up to Costco and try them again. Again they were very comfortable. So I said screw it and bought 2 of them.
> 
> At first I was thinking about removing the left arms so that I could have that space to walk around the right side of my front row. In the end though I like being able to seperately angle the chairs so that they all face the screen and I like the curved row for gatherings because it's easier to talk to people. Also, having the seperate arm rests for each person is nice. However.... that far right seat will suck acoustically but there is ALWAYS plenty of people at a gathering that don't give a crap about that anyway.
> 
> My kids love them, so that's good enough for me.
> 
> As far as the comfort, I don't like them nearly as much as my Row One Manhattan chairs. The Row One chairs have a shorter head rest but still plenty tall for me at 6' 1" and they work perfectly for my head in that when even fully reclined I can easily see the screen and wouldn't even use a motorized head rest function even if they had it. The RO's are very wide, not that the Costco chairs aren't pretty wide but it's a noticeable difference. They Row One without arms measures 25.5 inches wide.
> 
> Also, the chair at the store was much more comfortable (still not as good as the Row One) than the new chairs so I do need to get them broken in.
> 
> All that said I do like them very much and I think it's a good buy especially with power recline and a huge storage compartment in each left arm and a 3 prong power outlet and 2 usb chargers in each right arm. The cup holders are a bit smaller than my Row One chairs, but who cares, they will EASILY fit a can of beer and really that's all that matters right?
> 
> @BIGmouthinDC
> @Randy Bessinger
> 
> Jeff, I know you weren't crazy about the comfort I'm wondering if you tried a chair that wasn't broken in, the difference in comfort is huge between what I have and the store chair!! I'll need to have someone big like @Archaea over more often just so he can break in my chairs, haha! Anyway, thanks for your post on that thread it pushed me over the edge and I really do like these chairs a lot, just have to break 'em in.
> 
> I really wish I could afford 2 more chairs like the ones I've had but I hate to admit how much I paid for them... way more than the Costco chairs  but still worth it since I spend way to much time on my sorry ass down here.
> 
> Randy, I saw you in that thread about the Cosco chairs, did you get any?


Carp,

Yep I got one at 399..u can reserve it for theater night if u like. I love it...and for the price..can't beat it. It sits next to one recommended brand by Erskine group (quite a bit more expensive even for a much smaller seat, manual recline). By the way, the Pratt (sp-platt) company in MO makes almost all the frames for these things. Bid on work when I worked for Deloitte,


----------



## carp

Randy Bessinger said:


> Carp,
> 
> Yep I got one at 399..u can reserve it for theater night if u like. I love it...and for the price..can't beat it. It sits next to one recommended brand by Erskine group (quite a bit more expensive even for a much smaller seat, manual recline). By the way, the Pratt (sp-platt) company in MO makes almost all the frames for these things. Bid on work when I worked for Deloitte,


Nice!!

I think they are a great deal at 499, 399 is amazing! I read that if the price goes back on sale to 399 in the next 14 days I'll get the difference back. Not counting on it but I'll check just to make sure. 

Is yours getting more comfortable the more you sit in it?


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Hmm. Yeah.
> 
> I can't offer any useful advice but leather does indeed come in many, many qualities. Just like everything in life.
> 
> The good stuff will always cost ya.


Very true. 

I will say that after trying out a ton of chairs back when I was shopping for them I can say that there were many chairs out there that were less comfortable than the Costco chairs for a lot more money.... so if it's bonded leather or whatever else I wouldn't be too surprised or disappointed.


----------



## raynist

Do you know if these are bonded leather?

Edit: looks like real leather. 

Seems like a good deal.


----------



## carp

I don't know... they say they are top grain leather but like I said the differences in feel from chair to chair was huge so it's tough to know for sure IMO. 

Back when I bought my Row One chairs I first bought some brown Barcalounger (I think Row One bought them out) chairs that were on clearance and i absolutely loved them. They were 26.5 inches wide on the seat, so massive and so comfortable. However, after 30 minutes or so I would get hot in them and it would just get worse. I returned them and paid for the real leather and haven't had that happen since. I'll try it out with the Costco chairs and see what happens if I can ever get myself out of the main LP seat.


----------



## carp

I just realized my avatar picture has the brown chairs I was talking about.


----------



## raynist

carp said:


> I don't know... they say they are top grain leather but like I said the differences in feel from chair to chair was huge so it's tough to know for sure IMO.
> 
> Back when I bought my Row One chairs I first bought some brown Barcalounger (I think Row One bought them out) chairs that were on clearance and i absolutely loved them. They were 26.5 inches wide on the seat, so massive and so comfortable. However, after 30 minutes or so I would get hot in them and it would just get worse. I returned them and paid for the real leather and haven't had that happen since. I'll try it out with the Costco chairs and see what happens if I can ever get myself out of the main LP seat.


From reading that thread it looks like they are real leather and not bonded.


----------



## Archaea

carp said:


> I'll need to have someone big like @Archaea over more often just so he can break in my chairs, haha!


Are those chairs big enough that this doesn't happen to me?


----------



## carp

Ha! On the bright side if that happens I guess it means you can take it home.  

Oh boy, a second look at the pic I see he's about to lose his shorts... tough day at the beach.


----------



## ambesolman

carp said:


> I don't know... they say they are top grain leather but like I said the differences in feel from chair to chair was huge so it's tough to know for sure IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Back when I bought my Row One chairs I first bought some brown Barcalounger (I think Row One bought them out) chairs that were on clearance and i absolutely loved them. They were 26.5 inches wide on the seat, so massive and so comfortable. However, after 30 minutes or so I would get hot in them and it would just get worse. I returned them and paid for the real leather and haven't had that happen since. I'll try it out with the Costco chairs and see what happens if I can ever get myself out of the main LP seat.



Sounds like Naugahyde 



carp said:


> Ha! On the bright side if that happens I guess it means you can take it home.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh boy, a second look at the pic I see he's about to lose his shorts... tough day at the beach.



Doubt it, that gut has them well-anchored in the front


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still


----------



## Randy Bessinger

carp said:


> Nice!!
> 
> I think they are a great deal at 499, 399 is amazing! I read that if the price goes back on sale to 399 in the next 14 days I'll get the difference back. Not counting on it but I'll check just to make sure.
> 
> Is yours getting more comfortable the more you sit in it?


Yes, it seems to be.


----------



## d_c

Those look nice Carp! Good deal too. I have been shopping prices for HT chairs that have a couch and chairs all together in a row and they are freaking out of this world expensive for nice leather.


----------



## Archaea

Doug,

I got my Berklines used on craigslist for a bit less than 1/2 of new price. The Berklines were like $750 each new, I got them for $300 each. So it might be worth keeping an eye on craiglist.
Here's an example
https://kansascity.craigslist.org/fuo/5343444927.html


Though at the current Costco price of $400 per chair ---- that's pretty hard to beat. I sat in one at the store too - they were nice.


----------



## COACH2369

Which chairs are the ones the right? Are those the ones you already had?

From the looks of the picture, they seem shorter than the ones on the left..


----------



## carp

COACH2369 said:


> Which chairs are the ones the right? Are those the ones you already had?
> 
> From the looks of the picture, they seem shorter than the ones on the left..


Yes, the chairs on the right are what I have had for 1.5 years. They are a little bit shorter, which I also like because my ears aren't as blocked from the surrounds but they are tall enough that my head has plenty of cushion. 

They are Row One Manhattans and I love them - one thing though, my chair has been herky-jerky lately when reclining. No issue when I'm coming back up (meaning the footrest is going back down and chair back going back to upright) but when I recline it isn't smooth. Not sure if there is a fix for that?


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> Yes, the chairs on the right are what I have had for 1.5 years. They are a little bit shorter, which I also like because my ears aren't as blocked from the surrounds but they are tall enough that my head has plenty of cushion.
> 
> They are Row One Manhattans and I love them - one thing though, my chair has been herky-jerky lately when reclining. No issue when I'm coming back up (meaning the footrest is going back down and chair back going back to upright) but when I recline it isn't smooth. Not sure if there is a fix for that?



I like the idea of having a slightly shorter chair for that very reason. I'll look those up and get the dimensions.

Thanks.


----------



## beastaudio

Leather is like that. There are a ton of different ways to do leather, it all depends on how they tan it, dry it, etc. 

Are you set on that config? Would the two new chairs fit behind the two old on the platform? Then you could move the couch down to the side for more room to walk by.


----------



## Archaea

reminds me of human planet -and the episode that talks about leather processing. 

That has to be one of the stinkiest gigs possible. I can't even imagine how bad you would smell coming home every night! working with leather is basically working with rotting meat at first! Then the vats of sloopy foul smelling curing agents mixed with pigeon poop!?!

Apparently the finest leathers use pigeon poop to process the leather.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00fglbp


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Leather is like that. There are a ton of different ways to do leather, it all depends on how they tan it, dry it, etc.
> 
> Are you set on that config? Would the two new chairs fit behind the two old on the platform? Then you could move the couch down to the side for more room to walk by.


Ha, you are like me - always thinking about how to configure things. 

The couch won't fit between my main LP seat (second seat from the right in those pictures) and the wall. However, I am considering having the Costco chairs be on the outside of the front row and the Row One chairs as the 2 middle seats because that puts the armrest (right armrest) that has the power outlet right next to my main LP.


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> reminds me of human planet -and the episode that talks about leather processing.
> 
> That has to be one of the stinkiest gigs possible. I can't even imagine how bad you would smell coming home every night! working with leather is basically working with rotting meat at first! Then the vats of sloopy foul smelling curing agents mixed with pigeon poop!?!
> 
> Apparently the finest leathers use pigeon poop to process the leather.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00fglbp



Hmmm maybe my job isn't so bad....


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Ha, you are like me - always thinking about how to configure things.
> 
> The couch won't fit between my main LP seat (second seat from the right in those pictures) and the wall. However, I am considering having the Costco chairs be on the outside of the front row and the Row One chairs as the 2 middle seats because that puts the armrest (right armrest) that has the power outlet right next to my main LP.


Great call there! I use the two USB charging ports on my chairs quite regularly for various different things. I can even fit my harmony remote hub down in one of the arms and have it charge completely hidden. I just don't like that idea for some reason...

EDIT: And the move creates symmetry. I am all about symmetrics....


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Great call there! I use the two USB charging ports on my chairs quite regularly for various different things. I can even fit my harmony remote hub down in one of the arms and have it charge completely hidden. I just don't like that idea for some reason...
> 
> EDIT: And the move creates symmetry. I am all about symmetrics....


Yep, symmetrical does look better, and of course I made sure to still have the main LP seat at absolute dead center. 

We had a bunch of people over for the Chiefs game and it was interesting how much more the dudes were all over the front row now that there are 4 seperate chairs instead of 2 chairs and a loveseat. I really like the curved row because it's easy to see everyone else in the row and talk....errr... ***** that is about the Chiefs...


----------



## carp

I am back on the PL2x music train. I used it all the time years ago and almost always preferred it to 2 channel. When I bought the 212's back in 2012 2 channel sounded so good that I used that exclusively. 

However, I love to tinker so I kept trying it every now and then just to see if I'd like it. I did notice that it got better when I moved the center channel up to vertical behind the screen - a lot better. Still not good enough to pull me away from 2 channel. I tried it again after moving my surrounds down to ear level. Again, an improvement in PL2x Music but still not as good as 2 channel. 

More recently I covered the front wall in insulation and replaced the fabric loveseat with leather chairs. Last week I tried PL2 again. Wow, now it is damn good. It has been good in the past but always seemed a bit "fake" sounding over time and I always went back to 2 channel after a few songs. This week that hasn't been the case, I've been all PL2 music. 

I do tweak the settings a bit, I change the center width to 5 because I think the default 3 is a bit too center heavy. Also I set the dimension to +1 which brings the sound to the front 3 a touch more than the default setting of 0, however I've tried these settings before all the room changes so I know it's not any avr setting that's making me like it more than before. 

Listening to the Awake album by Dream Theater right now.. so good. Lifting Shadows off a Dream one of my all time favorite songs..... 

One more thing, I do recline all the chairs (including the couch on the 2nd row) except mine. That seems to make a difference with how natural the surround field is. 

So... that messes things up a bit when I finally get around to upgrading the AVR. I'll have to make sure that the new AVR has PL2 music and not just DSU. 

I think Yamaha avr's have it... I always loved my old Yamaha rxv-3000 that I bought back in 2001, I guess it will be time to go back. Each AVR I've bought since that one has had little bugs or issues but that thing was a tank and indestructible. Plus if I'm using Dirac by then it won't matter what AVR I have as far as room correction goes (assuming I ever start using such a thing). 

It could be a short time thing and maybe I'll be back to 2 channel for good but I'm loving it right now.


----------



## Gooddoc

carp said:


> Yep, symmetrical does look better, and of course I made sure to still have the main LP seat at absolute dead center.
> 
> We had a bunch of people over for the Chiefs game and it was interesting how much more the dudes were all over the front row now that there are 4 seperate chairs instead of 2 chairs and a loveseat. I really like the curved row because it's easy to see everyone else in the row and talk....errr... ***** that is about the Chiefs...


When I got my new seating the wife was pushing for a loveseat configuration in the middle. I pushed back since I think most people are more comfortable having their personal space, I know I am. An armrest away is close enough, thank-you .


----------



## carp

Gooddoc said:


> When I got my new seating the wife was pushing for a loveseat configuration in the middle. I pushed back since I think most people are more comfortable having their personal space, I know I am. An armrest away is close enough, thank-you .


It is great that all the seats have their own armrest, the only chairs that share one have the large wedge armrest so no one is real close to their neighbor. Much better than the love seat was, I agree with you. 

Haha, that and one of my friends was drinking rum/coke and beer at the same time so having 2 cupholders per person is nice.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> I am back on the PL2x music train.














carp said:


> I used it all the time years ago and almost always preferred it to 2 channel. When I bought the 212's back in 2012 2 channel sounded so good that I used that exclusively.
> 
> However, I love to tinker so I kept trying it every now and then just to see if I'd like it. I did notice that it got better when I moved the center channel up to vertical behind the screen - a lot better. Still not good enough to pull me away from 2 channel. I tried it again after moving my surrounds down to ear level. Again, an improvement in PL2x Music but still not as good as 2 channel.
> 
> More recently I covered the front wall in insulation and replaced the fabric loveseat with leather chairs. Last week I tried PL2 again. Wow, now it is damn good. It has been good in the past but always seemed a bit "fake" sounding over time and I always went back to 2 channel after a few songs. This week that hasn't been the case, I've been all PL2 music.
> 
> I do tweak the settings a bit, I change the center width to 5 because I think the default 3 is a bit too center heavy. Also I set the dimension to +1 which brings the sound to the front 3 a touch more than the default setting of 0, however I've tried these settings before all the room changes so I know it's not any avr setting that's making me like it more than before.
> 
> Listening to the Awake album by Dream Theater right now.. so good. Lifting Shadows off a Dream one of my all time favorite songs.....
> 
> One more thing, I do recline all the chairs (including the couch on the 2nd row) except mine. That seems to make a difference with how natural the surround field is.
> 
> So... that messes things up a bit when I finally get around to upgrading the AVR. I'll have to make sure that the new AVR has PL2 music and not just DSU.
> 
> I think Yamaha avr's have it... I always loved my old Yamaha rxv-3000 that I bought back in 2001, I guess it will be time to go back. Each AVR I've bought since that one has had little bugs or issues but that thing was a tank and indestructible. Plus if I'm using Dirac by then it won't matter what AVR I have as far as room correction goes (assuming I ever start using such a thing).
> 
> It could be a short time thing and maybe I'll be back to 2 channel for good but I'm loving it right now.















Yes, Yamaha (being the best, ahem ) has opted to keep PL2x and have DSU as options. 

The A3050 (which I own) is awesome as is the A5100 if you want the XLR-option pre/pro experience. 

Let me know.


----------



## Gooddoc

carp said:


> Haha, that and one of my friends was drinking rum/coke and beer at the same time so having 2 cupholders per person is nice.


Haha! Bonus!


----------



## Scott Simonian

Didn't have one of those beer hat's on, huh?

Hey, what gives? When was the last time you saw one of those? Are those not a thing anymore? What's a football game without a beer hat? Seriously.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Yes, Yamaha (being the best, ahem ) has opted to keep PL2x and have DSU as options.
> 
> The A3050 (which I own) is awesome as is the A5100 if you want the XLR-option pre/pro experience.
> 
> Let me know.




Haha, Scott - I was thinking about your Yamaha love while writing that post.  It surprises me that everyone else has abandoned PL2x. 

Have you done any music comparisons (2 channel source) between PL2x Music and DSU? If so what did you think? If you haven't.... do you mind comparing them when you get a chance?


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Didn't have one of those beer hat's on, huh?
> 
> Hey, what gives? When was the last time you saw one of those? Are those not a thing anymore? What's a football game without a beer hat? Seriously.


Haha, I don't think it's right that I've lived my whole life and have never tried out a beer hat.


----------



## Scott Simonian

I haven't, really no. Sorry, I don't listen to music much in my HT room. I used to years and years ago. 

But.. I know from that that I like PL2 music with my music. Yes. DSU, honestly, sounds the same but with some ambient extraction upwards too which is a good thing. DSU has only one setting though and that is to allow center fill or not. You have to go into the options to turn it on or off so in your case you would leave it on.... or off. Crap, I forgot was the default or what they called it. 

Yamaha kept it because they are actually mindful of their owners and many people love PL2x for various things. Also, they use it when you've activated CinemaDSP but let's gloss over that detail. 

DSU is also excellent but like ALL post surround processors, YMMV with content.


----------



## carp




----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> I haven't, really no. Sorry, I don't listen to music much in my HT room. I used to years and years ago.
> 
> But.. I know from that that I like PL2 music with my music. Yes. DSU, honestly, sounds the same but with some ambient extraction upwards too which is a good thing. DSU has only one setting though and that is to allow center fill or not. You have to go into the options to turn it on or off so in your case you would leave it on.... or off. Crap, I forgot was the default or what they called it.
> 
> Yamaha kept it because they are actually mindful of their owners and many people love PL2x for various things. Also, they use it when you've activated CinemaDSP but let's gloss over that detail.
> 
> DSU is also excellent but like ALL post surround processors, YMMV with content.



Gotcha. So bottom line - chances are I'd like DSU as much or more BUT on the chance that I don't, Yamaha would have me covered.


----------



## Scott Simonian

There ya go. Beer, rum, coke. All hands free.

Two cup holders now available to hold TWO MORE BEERS!!!

I know, right?!?!


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> Gotcha. So bottom line - chances are I'd like DSU as much or more BUT on the chance that I don't, Yamaha would have me covered.


Yes but don't let that be your deciding factor. Unless it really is of the upmost importance over any other differences between the usual Denon/Marantz fodder people pick up for Atmos. 

I know you're a big fan of Pioneer but... well.... my condolences. 

If you do have any questions about the Yamaha, you can hit me up on here or the phone any time.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Yes but don't let that be your deciding factor. Unless it really is of the upmost importance over any other differences between the usual Denon/Marantz fodder people pick up for Atmos.
> 
> I know you're a big fan of Pioneer but... well.... my condolences.
> 
> If you do have any questions about the Yamaha, you can hit me up on here or the phone any time.



Thanks man. I've never been a fan of one specific brand of AVR, Pioneer drives me nuts because of their lack of options with crossover settings.


----------



## Stoked21

I've always loved Yamaha. I still have s 7.1 avr and a sound bar by them that are great. Never any problems with the 4 units I've bought from them. My Matantz was buggy and at times strange things go on. First unit was defective too! But Audyssey and 13 chs out was a must hence my change. I do think the Marantz gui is nicer for setups. But operationally the Yamaha gui is best. Honestly I can't stand YPAO though. Then again with Dirac....like you said it doesn't matter. 

One thing I hate on Yamaha is that you can't hide sources. I really don't want to scroll through all 78 inputs to get the 3-5 I need! Little gripes but solid units. 

Always a compromise.


----------



## carp

One thing that is a must for me is to be able to adjust the sub trim easily at the touch of a button - or at most 2 buttons. Every Denon I have seen you have to go through 15 menus before you can turn up the bass. No thanks. The Onkyo I had for 3 days wasn't quite as bad but it was still more complicated to adjust the sub trim than the Elites or Yamahas are (unless Yamaha has changed, the one I had you could change the sub trim immediately). 

I also love the half inch increment manual distance settings on all speakers that the Elite has. Makes it very easy to perfectly dial in the stereo image for 2 channel, and using it has made me realize that not all of our ears hear the dead center imaging with the same distance settings for the L and R speaker.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> One thing that is a must for me is to be able to adjust the sub trim easily at the touch of a button - or at most 2 buttons. Every Denon I have seen you have to go through 15 menus before you can turn up the bass. No thanks. The Onkyo I had for 3 days wasn't quite as bad but it was still more complicated to adjust the sub trim than the Elites or Yamahas are (unless Yamaha has changed, the one I had you could change the sub trim immediately).
> 
> I also love the half inch increment manual distance settings on all speakers that the Elite has. Makes it very easy to perfectly dial in the stereo image for 2 channel, and using it has made me realize that not all of our ears hear the dead center imaging with the same distance settings for the L and R speaker.



??? Two buttons for source-specific sub trim adjustments on D&M current models. Option-->Subwoofer 1/2---> adjust


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> One thing that is a must for me is to be able to adjust the sub trim easily at the touch of a button - or at most 2 buttons. Every Denon I have seen you have to go through 15 menus before you can turn up the bass. No thanks. The Onkyo I had for 3 days wasn't quite as bad but it was still more complicated to adjust the sub trim than the Elites or Yamahas are (unless Yamaha has changed, the one I had you could change the sub trim immediately).
> 
> I also love the half inch increment manual distance settings on all speakers that the Elite has. Makes it very easy to perfectly dial in the stereo image for 2 channel, and using it has made me realize that not all of our ears hear the dead center imaging with the same distance settings for the L and R speaker.



Well....eeeerrrrggggg....this is one of two major gripes I have about this Yamaha over my previous Onkyo. But my problem is a bit specific.

There is a very quick to access "sub trim" option but it has a range of -6/+6 which I think is small. The other thing is that this trim  option controls both subwoofer outputs simultaneously. Could be a problem or it might not be. For me, it's annoying because I have my main sub system on output 1 and my subwoofer riser on output 2. On my Onkyo, it was just like what Brandon posted above with the D&M stuff. I'd prefer to have control over both and quickly/easily. I can't as far as I have figured out. (also note that I use the Yamaha controller app and not the real remote) You have to go into several layers of menus to get to the main speaker level option screen to change any difference between sub1 and sub2 or in my case, just control sub2 for whatever reason.

That, is annoying. For me. 

The other gripe I have with Yamaha is that it can be slow to lock onto the audio signal. With my Onkyo, it was very fast. Now, it can take a second or two. When a clip starts with audio you might miss something.


But besides those two things.... it is wonderful!


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> ??? Two buttons for source-specific sub trim adjustments on D&M current models. Option-->Subwoofer 1/2---> adjust


It seems almost every room I've been in when they go to adjust the bass I see multiple menus on the gui before they finally get to the sub trim. Nice to hear that current models aren't like that anymore.


----------



## Archaea

beastaudio said:


> ??? Two buttons for source-specific sub trim adjustments on D&M current models. Option-->Subwoofer 1/2---> adjust


option
channel level
subwoofer 1 and 2


----------



## beastaudio

Archaea said:


> option
> channel level
> subwoofer 1 and 2


Jynx personal jynx no padlock?


----------



## ambesolman

beastaudio said:


> ??? Two buttons for source-specific sub trim adjustments on D&M current models. Option-->Subwoofer 1/2---> adjust



With my x4000 I have to go through multiple menus, but with the DeRemote app it's easier to adjust any trim on the fly.










Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still


----------



## beastaudio

ambesolman said:


> With my x4000 I have to go through multiple menus, but with the DeRemote app it's easier to adjust any trim on the fly.
> 
> View attachment 1194970
> 
> 
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still


That little button to the top-right of the Dpad that says option? It push it once to get submenu, where channel level trims should already be the first choice, hit the button again and you should be able to adjust subwoofer trim levels specific to each source directly from that spot. It's great...


----------



## ambesolman

beastaudio said:


> That little button to the top-right of the Dpad that says option? It push it once to get submenu, where channel level trims should already be the first choice, hit the button again and you should be able to adjust subwoofer trim levels specific to each source directly from that spot. It's great...



Weird, all I get is Picture Mode under that. Can you add stuff to the menu?


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still


----------



## beastaudio

ambesolman said:


> Weird, all I get is Picture Mode under that. Can you add stuff to the menu?
> 
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still


I would have assumed it would be the same for all models, but perhaps only the processors have the available trim adjustments there (or just marantz?)....which would certainly be disappointing. Nontheless, d-remote or even the new D&M stock phone app to the rescue. You can still get there PDQ.


----------



## Archaea

Denon x7200wa has it just as I prescribed above.
It's option -> channel level -> _then your at the trims page - but subwoofer 1 and 2 are at the bottom of all the channel trims_

Maybe a newer GUI than what the x4000 has? x4000 is a couple generations old now right?


----------



## beastaudio

Archaea said:


> Denon x7200wa has it just as I prescribed above.
> It's option -> channel level -> _then your at the trims page - but subwoofer 1 and 2 are at the bottom of all the channel trims_
> 
> Maybe a newer GUI than what the x4000 has? x4000 is a couple generations old now right?


I know people, including myself pushed back pretty hard after they got rid of the feature circa 4311 days. IIRC it was the last one to have the individual sub trim access... I am glad they got at least almost all the way back to where they are now. Another odd thing though, my sub channel level trims are always right close to the top. Stereo they are very top, surround modes they are only a few down, I think below LCR.


----------



## Stoked21

Don't think I ever saw anything on the final results.....How did the insulation of the front work? Did it deaden it? Improve SQ at all?


----------



## carp

Stoked21 said:


> Don't think I ever saw anything on the final results.....How did the insulation of the front work? Did it deaden it? Improve SQ at all?


Honestly the biggest improvement I've found is using Pro Logic IIx Music. Ever since I bought better mains (212's) back in 2012 I've been exclusively 2 channel for music but I did try PL2x off and on every once in awhile just to try it but it always sounded to gimmicky and echo-y and I never kept it on long before going back to 2 channel. 

Now it sounds fan-freaking-tastic. For 2 straight weeks I haven't listened to anything but PL2x and as you guys know I listen to music all the time. 

As Jonathan was saying, it must be the fact that there is no reflection from the rear speakers (which aim right at the front wall obviously) and none from the wide dispersion of the side surround volts that makes a big difference. That along with surrounding the center channel itself of course. 

For movies I can't tell as much, but it does make a difference. Speech intelligibility is improved and I've also noticed I don't turn up the bass on the 215's quite as much - a couple of db's less most of the time. 

Very glad I did it, but I'm not quite done. I need about a roll and a half more to go all the way up to the top of the screen. I'm not super motivated to do it since it already sounds great. 

The interesting thing is that for music I still like the sound of the bass better with the 215's running full range and the 8 subs up front off even though I'm using all 7 speakers for music now.


----------



## carp

I spent a lot of yesterday and today over at Doug's place building acoustic panels. It was a lot of work, but so worth it and it's fun hanging out over there so it's nice to have an excuse. I got to see and hear Doug's new mains and they are awesome!! Probably the most beautiful speakers I have ever seen in person. Randy came over to Doug's place and we listened to some tunes and hung out for awhile and shot the ****. 

Anyway, the panels came out sooo great. We made 4 black panels for my side walls and 3 white panels for my ceiling, so I will have a lot of panels now. I figure I'll try them out and if I don't like it no biggie since it was so cheap.


----------



## Pain Infliction

Those look super professional! Crisp straight lines and no wrinkled fabric. Great job fellas!


----------



## carp

There is a little seam down the middle where the fabric was folded but with my wife's help at figuring out the iron I was able to completely smooth out that crease. 

You would have thought I bought these from GIK! Actually I like the material better on the DIY. Blacks are darker and my white panels for the ceiling are whiter. 

I'm going to do a ton of experimenting, and I'll either have a room full of panels or a bunch of panels for sale.


----------



## Gooddoc

Love your room man! Was just rolling through the pics.

I'm getting some professional help for my room treatments. Having someone take a look at measurements and my room will go a long way for me. I feel like I'm just shooting in the dark.


----------



## brian6751

very nice! Is that just Roxul insulation? Any details on them?


----------



## sigma722

Those look stupid good. Absolutely crazy. Regretting sleeping in yesterday morning and not making it over!


----------



## beastaudio

Don't you already have a ceiling cloud panel installed? Those looks very impressive btw. Excellent work! Wrapping those things is tough work to get really uniform, but it looks like yall nailed it!


----------



## d_c

brian6751 said:


> very nice! Is that just Roxul insulation? Any details on them?


It's 2" thick 8# Roxul mineral board. It's almost as good, within a small percentage as oc703, but better at lower frequencies and half the price. It is twice as heavy, but that is about the only drawback I could find. I did a bunch of reading on Gearslutz, which has tons of info on treatments. There is a guy that has testing between all the different materials people use that have actual data you can see to compare them at different frequencies. Think the Data-bass subs comparison of acoustic absorbtion products for the DIY guy. I was drawn to it because of my close proximity of mains to the side walls, causing reflective issues all around 100hz. These panels have 1.5" of open space behind the Roxul.

Here is the comparison of materials. We are looking at 2" 4# oc703 compared to 2" 8" Roxul:
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm


703, plain..2" (51mm)on wall......3.0 pcf (48 kg/m3)....0.17	0.86	1.14	1.07	1.02	0.98	1.00
RXL 80......2" (51mm)................8.0 pcf (128 kg/m3)..0.43	0.78	0.90	0.97	0.97	1.00	0.90


----------



## carp

Gooddoc said:


> Love your room man! Was just rolling through the pics.
> 
> I'm getting some professional help for my room treatments. Having someone take a look at measurements and my room will go a long way for me. I feel like I'm just shooting in the dark.


I know what you mean about shooting in the dark. I'm so tired of reading contradicting information about how to treat a room so I said screw it, as usual I'll just experiement and see what happens. 

What really motivated me was hearing @Stoked21 Derek's room last week after he put in all his GIK panels. His room sounded significantly better after getting the panels. He has a lot more panels than I did so I figured I'd add more and see what happens. 

Today I finished putting r30 pink fluffy behind my screen. I had 4 rolls of 24 feet behind it, and that went up to about 5.5 feet. I finished it up today with 3 more rolls all the way to the ceiling. 

I took out ALL the panels and put them in the next room - apsorption and diffusion - and music is sounding freaking amazing right now in 2 channel. So for now I don't know if it's adding the pink fluffy all the way to the ceiling that is making it sound better or if it's taking out all the panels but I'm going to experiment in the next days and weeks with bringing in a few panels, a bunch of panels, ceiling only, walls only, both walls and ceiling, etc. until I figure out what I like. 

I am willing to bet that what I like best for movies and music will be different, if that's the case music wins!!

So, I knew going in that there was a chance I'd build all these panels and end up not wanting them but I had to know what would happen with all of them in the room.


----------



## Stoked21

carp said:


> shooting in the dark.
> 
> ....Derek's room last week after he put in all his GIK panels. His room sounded significantly better after getting the panels. He has a lot more panels than I did so I figured I'd add more and see what happens.


Damn, mine was a real shot in the dark too!!! GIK did give me advice for the side and back walls, but I did the front and ceiling by myself. I'm sure it could be better or worse. I'd still love to have someone professional come in and evaluate. I'm sure that's not cheap though so trial and error it is for now. My goal was simply one thing...cover all of the first reflection points. I figure you can't really lose if you do that.


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Don't you already have a ceiling cloud panel installed? Those looks very impressive btw. Excellent work! Wrapping those things is tough work to get really uniform, but it looks like yall nailed it!


Yeah, I had 3 242 panels on the ceiling. We made 3 more for the ceiling. I already had 2 absorption panels and 2 diffusion panels on the side wall. We made 4 more panels for the side walls. 

I'm telling you though, I LOVE how it sounds finishing up the pink fluffy all the way to the ceiling. The front wall change sounds great for movies and music. The jury is out on the rest of the treatments. 


Before today:







After:




I also put a bunch of insulation on top of each stack of subs, there was close to a foot between the subs and the ceiling. The insulation goes all the way to the floor, you can't tell from the pics.


----------



## Stoked21

Do you have black backer behind your screen? If not, is the insulation reflective through the AT?


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Don't you already have a ceiling cloud panel installed? Those looks very impressive btw. Excellent work! Wrapping those things is tough work to get really uniform, but it looks like yall nailed it!


Doug gets all the credit for getting the wrapped correctly. He held in place and I did all the stapling. His job was WAY harder than mine!! Those corners... NO WAY I could have gotten them to look so nice.


----------



## carp

Stoked21 said:


> Damn, mine was a real shot in the dark too!!! GIK did give me advice for the side and back walls, but I did the front and ceiling by myself. I'm sure it could be better or worse. I'd still love to have someone professional come in and evaluate. I'm sure that's not cheap though so trial and error it is for now. *My goal was simply one thing...cover all of the first reflection points. I figure you can't really lose if you do that*.


Ha! The experts don't agree on that either!! One thing is for sure though, they are working great in your room!


----------



## carp

Stoked21 said:


> Do you have black backer behind your screen? If not, is the insulation reflective through the AT?


Yeah, I have 2 layers of it since Elite sent me a replacement screen. Neither layer is over the center channel though.


----------



## Stoked21

carp said:


> Ha! The experts don't agree on that either!! One thing is for sure though, they are working great in your room!


What do they agree on...HA HA

I do worry at times I over treated. Sounded like attenuation in the mid-bass to mids. But I know it helped the imaging so it's hard for me to complain. Your room "should" be easier...The L shaped room of mine is a PITA...

Break out your measurement tools and put one panel up at a time and try varying combos..Takes a while, but worth it.


----------



## raynist

carp said:


> Yeah, I had 3 242 panels on the ceiling. We made 3 more for the ceiling. I already had 2 absorption panels and 2 diffusion panels on the side wall. We made 4 more panels for the side walls.
> 
> I'm telling you though, I LOVE how it sounds finishing up the pink fluffy all the way to the ceiling. The front wall change sounds great for movies and music. The jury is out on the rest of the treatments.
> 
> 
> Before today:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also put a bunch of insulation on top of each stack of subs, there was close to a foot between the subs and the ceiling. The insulation goes all the way to the floor, you can't tell from the pics.


Did you leave the insulation bare or did you cover it? I ended up covering mine (ecose smooth board) with cheap black sheets from Walmart as I am paranoid about insulation dust in the house. 

How thick front to back is that insulation?


----------



## carp

raynist said:


> Did you leave the insulation bare or did you cover it? I ended up covering mine (ecose smooth board) with cheap black sheets from Walmart as I am paranoid about insulation dust in the house.
> 
> How thick front to back is that insulation?


I didn't cover it with anything special. It does have 2 layers of black backing and then the AT screen, the rest has velvet over it. From your question I assume you are saying that isn't enough? 

It is 15 inches thick.


----------



## Frohlich

The new black panels you built look great Carp. Hopefully it will take your room from awesome to uber-awesome


----------



## raynist

carp said:


> I didn't cover it with anything special. It does have 2 layers of black backing and then the AT screen, the rest has velvet over it. From your question I assume you are saying that isn't enough?
> 
> It is 15 inches thick.


I was just wondering. I am very paranoid about insulation dust so I covered any exposed insulation behind my screen in black sheets. Might not be necessary though.


----------



## Mfusick

raynist said:


> I was just wondering. I am very paranoid about insulation dust so I covered any exposed insulation behind my screen in black sheets. Might not be necessary though.


If you are worried about the insulation material upgrade to ultra-touch. I'd let my kids play in it.

HomieD sells it wih free shipping online.


----------



## raynist

Mfusick said:


> If you are worried about the insulation material upgrade to ultra-touch. I'd let my kids play in it.
> 
> HomieD sells it wih free shipping online.


Thanks. I have used that also and covered it with a sheet too. The stuff I got was very 'dusty' and caused me to have issues with my nose and throat after working with it, but I am very susceptible to allergy issues.


----------



## Mfusick

raynist said:


> Thanks. I have used that also and covered it with a sheet too. The stuff I got was very 'dusty' and caused me to have issues with my nose and throat after working with it, but I am very susceptible to allergy issues.


I can see that. It's only recycled cotton and denim. It's a safe material, but it's not well stuck together in the sense that if you are actively cutting it, stuffing it, using it, you will likely see much airborn particles from doing that. Once it's installed it's mostly stagnant so any issue like that should subside, but if you are very sensitive then covering it would also make sense. (it can't hurt).

But for an indoor use where family will be around it and it's not hidden behind sheet rock or something it's a good safe option. 

Believe it or not, fiberglass was actually the "safe" option. It grew in prominence in the last 60 years as a safe alternative to asbestos. Asbestos dates back to BC times, and has long been used as an insulating material and appreciated for it's durability against extreme temps. But obviously you know the story about that as an inhalant, causing health issues. Fiberglass is mostly just itchy to my knowledge, but if covered with fabric probably very safe long term. But my suggestion was because the main marketing around ultra touch is it's safer and more natural than fiberglass, you already wear the stuff as clothing everyday. Clothes lint your dryer, start saving it up and make your own! haha. Talk about DIY.... 

Ultratouch is about $36 a case shipped, they had a rebate last time I checked on it. A case is 6 rolls of 16" wide by 48" long, so it's a useful side for small DIY stuff like speakers or treatments. I believe you can get 48" wide rolls of 80 feet for about $150 too, although I never bought it. The absorbent properties is good. Possibly too good for room treatments, but then again pink fluff probably is too. For bass it's never good enough, but for sound (200hz+) it's too good for great sound. On side walls you might consider using some reflective tape on the surfaces in strips, or some diffuse. 

What speakers do you have?

Generally if a narrow speaker, with a good amount of toe in, you expose the side wall of that speaker to a more extreme off axis, so generally you would be forced to absorb that. If less toe in, or a wider speaker, you would be better to use that good energy as it will give you a bigger, wider, deeper sound stage with increased envelopment. With no treatments, you'll often suffer from imaging and focus, too much you'll shrink sound stage, limit envelopment, and reduce the width of the sound. It's give and take if you use only absorb or nothing, in the sense you take from one to give to another.

There is a technique that was developed for taking measurements from the side walls in order to balance that stuff towards optimal FYI. Jim Harber I believe sort of invented that, or pioneered it. He's helped teach it at many audio classes in the past, or to other calibrators. It will start to get complicated quickly and past the scope of this post, but just a heads up there is a process for doing it. Generally a wider speaker, with a balanced treatment will sound the best. In the HAA classes when they swap treatments and judge the absorb only is often judged the worst, especially in terms of width, which can be detrimental in some rooms or kinds of set ups. But obviously absorbing bad sound (I.E. poor off axis) is going to positively improve imaging and focus. If you want both then you are looking at that method Jim teaches, using a more balanced approach and consideration of those measurements in room. Often times it's better to use a combo panel that will transition from reflect/diffuse towards absorb, meaning it's more absorbent on the lower freq than at the highs. That would be a much more challenging DIY panel 

I don't usually follow this thread but it caught my eye. There is some other good threads on these subjects on other forums.


----------



## carp

I just got home from Black Sabbath. Incredible. I always knew that Toni Iommi was the man but seeing/hearing him live was.... a religious experience. No, Black Sabbath isn't my all time favorite but they are in my top 10 and if not for them *NONE of the metal I love would exist.* Toni was so tight and spot on with all his crunchy riffs, but also his guitar solos. It was like a guitar clinic. On top of that Geezer Butler was like Cliff Burton and Getty Lee rolled into one. I've seen Ozzy numerous times but he has never sounded this good. 

Thank God for Black Sabbath. Seriously.


----------



## brian6751

carp said:


> I just got home from Black Sabbath. Incredible. I always knew that Toni Iommi was the man but seeing/hearing him live was.... a religious experience. No, Black Sabbath isn't my all time favorite but they are in my top 10 and if not for them *NONE of the metal I love would exist.* Toni was so tight and spot on with all his crunchy riffs, but also his guitar solos. It was like a guitar clinic. On top of that Geezer Butler was like Cliff Burton and Getty Lee rolled into one. I've seen Ozzy numerous times but he has never sounded this good.
> 
> Thank God for Black Sabbath. Seriously.



They are in town tomorrow!! Man I wish I could go!

They are one of my all time favorites as well. New bands could still learn a lot from them.


----------



## Mfusick

brian6751 said:


> They are in town tomorrow!! Man I wish I could go!
> 
> They are one of my all time favorites as well. New bands could still learn a lot from them.


About a month before Tony and the band was set to take a tour (very early days) he lopped of the tips of two fingers in a factory he was working at. 

So- after he healed up he would de-tune his strings to loosen them so he could play easier after the injury. The result was a lower, more ominous sound. And the band used to get angry when the bar was so loud no one could hear them (gear was not like it is today, they played with basic guitar amps only) so they always turned it up, giving that louder more distorted sound. BOOM- the sound was born. That combined with ""the Devil's Interval" for that dark sound. That's a triad, which guitar players would know as going up 1 fret on each string, kind of simple but dark sounding, it was banned in classical music for some reason. That's the song black Sabbath, three notes basically. One of the first songs I learned on guitar back in the early 1990's. That's what started it all.

Bill Ward was an underated drummer back then IMO. I always liked his runs on War Pigs, and that stuff. 

I've seem Ozzy and BS probably 15 times. Ozzy is perhaps my all time favorite metal band, mostly because of Randy and Zak and the guitar player side of me. Not what they once were, but still awesome. 

You might not get another chance, they all have health issues.


----------



## brian6751

Yeah I know. I would also like to see Metallica and Megadeth before they call it quits as well but my ears just cannot take the beating from the concert. Plus Im a homer and would rather buy the concert on bluray and watch it at home. No bad seats or jerks to worry about. And they will take 5 while I get another beer


----------



## carp

brian6751 said:


> Yeah I know. I would also like to see Metallica and Megadeth before they call it quits as well but my ears just cannot take the beating from the concert. Plus Im a homer and would rather buy the concert on bluray and watch it at home. No bad seats or jerks to worry about. And they will take 5 while I get another beer


I always take these to concerts, have been for 5 years or so. You can easily adjust how far they are in your ears to the exact volume you want. If you put them all the way in it's a huge reduction in DB's. I have no ringing in my ears (ha, well no more than normal) and can't even tell I was at a concert last night other than a slight hangover. 

http://www.amazon.com/Etymotic-Research-ETY-Plugs-Protection-Earplugs/dp/B0044DEESS

I think you can get them at Best Buy too. Go grab a pair and get to the concert!!


----------



## carp

Mfusick said:


> About a month before Tony and the band was set to take a tour (very early days) he lopped of the tips of two fingers in a factory he was working at.
> 
> So- after he healed up he would de-tune his strings to loosen them so he could play easier after the injury. The result was a lower, more ominous sound. And the band used to get angry when the bar was so loud no one could hear them (gear was not like it is today, they played with basic guitar amps only) so they always turned it up, giving that louder more distorted sound. BOOM- the sound was born. That combined with ""the Devil's Interval" for that dark sound. That's a triad, which guitar players would know as going up 1 fret on each string, kind of simple but dark sounding, it was banned in classical music for some reason. That's the song black Sabbath, three notes basically. One of the first songs I learned on guitar back in the early 1990's. That's what started it all.
> 
> Bill Ward was an underated drummer back then IMO. I always liked his runs on War Pigs, and that stuff.
> 
> I've seem Ozzy and BS probably 15 times. Ozzy is perhaps my all time favorite metal band, mostly because of Randy and Zak and the guitar player side of me. Not what they once were, but still awesome.
> 
> You might not get another chance, they all have health issues.



Yep, that's how it all got started. I know that story well.  I didn't know that the devil's triad was not allowed in classical, that's too bad. I love dark sounding classical. You would think someone like Berlioz or maybe Vagner would have said screw that I'm doing it anyway. 

I'm sure it was banned because it sounded evil (in other words fantastic ) and went against the super rigid religious beliefs of the day. My mother still believes that anything with a "beat" is of Satan so sadly we aren't too far removed from that type of thinking. 

LOVE Ozzy's solo stuff. First two albums are all time classics obviously. I really like the 2 Jake E Lee albums too, although they aren't as good Randy's albums and some of Zak's. As a kid I absolutely loved the first side of Bark at the Moon, still do actually. Ultimate Sin feels like a guilty pleasure when listening to it but I still like it.


----------



## carp

Here are a couple of classical songs I love (ha, definitely NOT obscure) that are on the darker side. Horribly thin sound quality but I have a version on CD that is fantastic. Love this one. FF to 40 seconds.






Even more famous (used in movies), but great and so dark. Sound quality in the movie Knowing is really good on this song.


----------



## Mfusick

carp said:


> Yep, that's how it all got started. I know that story well.  I didn't know that the devil's triad was not allowed in classical, that's too bad. I love dark sounding classical. You would think someone like Berlioz or maybe Vagner would have said screw that I'm doing it anyway.
> 
> I'm sure it was banned because it sounded evil (in other words fantastic ) and went against the super rigid religious beliefs of the day. My mother still believes that anything with a "beat" is of Satan so sadly we aren't too far removed from that type of thinking.
> 
> LOVE Ozzy's solo stuff. First two albums are all time classics obviously. I really like the 2 Jake E Lee albums too, although they aren't as good Randy's albums and some of Zak's. As a kid I absolutely loved the first side of Bark at the Moon, still do actually. Ultimate Sin feels like a guilty pleasure when listening to it but I still like it.


"Guilty pleasure" haha. That is exactly how I would describe it. Ultimate Sin is still great, but my wife gives me a weird look if I play it. She's younger and doesn't get it.

I love early Zak, when he used to blow lines of coke with Ozzy and Randy (other randy, the drummer that is dead). Listen to the live stuff from the late 1980's and they play sooo fast! Zak has a run at the end of shot in the dark, from that live album (just say ozzy?) where he goes nuts. I read an interview where he had to take a break after because his heart was racing so bad, they shot him up with some heart meds or something and he finished the show. 


I think overall the best two albums are the first one, and no more tears, where Ozzy and the guys got clean to make it. The mix and production on that one is a bit funny so it's not the best sounding, but musically it's the best IMO. That solo in hellraiser gives me goose bumps sometimes, Zak went nuts on that album. That was actually my first Ozzy album, I got it back in 1991 when it came out. I can remember I was a freshman in highschool I think, already into Guns n Rose, Metallica and stuff, but never really had experience with Ozzy yet. I played it, and the first 40 seconds were that song Mr Tinkertrain, which was like kids chimes or something... and I was confused. I was like "WTF!" I wasted my money on this garabage, it isn't even music. I was almost about to take the CD out when the song kicked in and Zak let off that insane pinch harmonic riff- BOOM it was over. I was hooked.


----------



## carp

Mfusick said:


> "Guilty pleasure" haha. That is exactly how I would describe it. Ultimate Sin is still great, but my wife gives me a weird look if I play it. She's younger and doesn't get it.
> 
> I love early Zak, when he used to blow lines of coke with Ozzy and Randy (other randy, the drummer that is dead). Listen to the live stuff from the late 1980's and they play sooo fast! Zak has a run at the end of shot in the dark, from that live album (just say ozzy?) where he goes nuts. I read an interview where he had to take a break after because his heart was racing so bad, they shot him up with some heart meds or something and he finished the show.
> 
> 
> I think overall the best two albums are the first one, and no more tears, where Ozzy and the guys got clean to make it. The mix and production on that one is a bit funny so it's not the best sounding, but musically it's the best IMO. That solo in hellraiser gives me goose bumps sometimes, Zak went nuts on that album. That was actually my first Ozzy album, I got it back in 1991 when it came out. I can remember I was a freshman in highschool I think, already into Guns n Rose, Metallica and stuff, but never really had experience with Ozzy yet. I played it, and the first 40 seconds were that song Mr Tinkertrain, which was like kids chimes or something... and I was confused. I was like "WTF!" I wasted my money on this garabage, it isn't even music. I was almost about to take the CD out when the song kicked in and Zak let off that insane pinch harmonic riff- BOOM it was over. I was hooked.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDB_oy4ZFlU



Like you I loved No More Tears too when it came out, still do. Hellraiser was and is my favorite! I was a senior in high school when it came out. I never loved it quite as much as Blizzard or Diary but I grew up on those albums. Also, I think those older albums had a darker sound to them which I'm all about. I think Zak's first album is underrated because the production isn't great. Some incredible guitar work on that one though. 

I was late to the Metallica party. As a kid I wasn't into anything that heavy (or so I thought) but really it was just the fact that I hadn't heard them much and didn't give them a chance. I of course saw the One video and heard the Black Album many times and like it but it wasn't until my freshman year of college (fall 92) that my musical world was turned upside down. A friend loaned me the cassette (yep cassette even in 92) of And Justice for All and I listened to that album every day for months. I clearly remember walking to class or practice everyday listening it over, and over and over. I didn't have money, so it took awhile to buy their other stuff. A couple months later it was Ride the Lightning and I thought holy **** this is even better!! I digested that album for a month or so before buying Master of Puppets. Whaaaaat????? Even better? You have to be kidding me. I remember so well getting pumped to Orion while warming up for a track meet and then the adrenaline carrying me over a new PR in the high jump (setting a new PR was the ultimate rush/high for me). Ha, I never jumped that high again....  

Finally I bought Kill 'em All in the spring and loved it too, not quite as much as the other 3. To this day those 3 albums are still my favorites. I'd still say MOP is my favorite but Justice gets listened to more than anything. Many complain of the production being thin, but it's actually my favorite sounding production sound ever. Crunchiest sounding guitars ever. Love it. 

I'd say for my college years I doubt hardly a single day went by without listening to something from one of those 3 albums.


----------



## Mfusick

My other guilty pleasure is Skid Row - Slave to the Grind.


----------



## carp

Mfusick said:


> My other guilty pleasure is Skid Row - Slave to the Grind.


Ha! Good call! I do have to give them credit for not going more glam sounding from their first album and actually getting heavier. It was career suicide though. 

My biggest one is probably Invasion of Your Privacy by Ratt. LOVED that album when it came out but in my defense it came out the summer after 5th grade. I still like it.  My musical tastes don't really change too much, if I like something I don't someday decide I don't like it anymore, no matter how cheesy it is.


----------



## d_c

Awesome show! I think I caught a cold though because I'm really sleepy and my head hurts today...

https://vimeo.com/155924110


----------



## carp

My cold is still lingering today....


----------



## carp

I always wanted to find this ever since I watched the Metal Evolution series. Since I've decided I like the front wall completely treated with NO other panels up in the room I have some more bare space to add stuff to the walls. I already have Metallica, Opeth, and Dream Theater on my walls so the thought struck me to look for this again. 

I found it and had a canvas made and it looks AMAZING in person. The pictures don't show how razor sharp the letters are or how nice it looks. I got the matte finish and there is no glare/distraction when the lights are off and the projector on. It's 43 tall and 30 wide. 

I counted yesterday, there are 287 bands on this thing (ha, starting with Johann Sebastian Bach not sure I should refer to him as a "band").

A couple of issues, I never would have put Ozzy in the "Shock Rock" genre although I do understand why they did that, and there aren't as many genres and sub genres as there are in the Ian Christie book called Sound of the Beast. 

Only one artist, from what I can tell, is in 2 categories. Alice Cooper is in "Early Metal US" and "Shock Rock". 

I do like how my favorite genre (thrash) has more offshoots/influences more categories than any other genre except for "Pre Metal" which has Bach, Paganini, Wagner, etc.

One major typo, I wasn't aware that the band "DOTTEN" was a glam metal band, haha. It makes me chuckle that all the genres that are a couple of decades or more older have offshoots except for Glam Metal. Dead end. 

Here is a shot that shows the size, that speaker is 6 feet tall. 








Here is the pdf file of it in case anyone is interested in seeing everything up close. You can zoom it very large and it still stays clear. 

http://yle.fi/progressive/flash/teema/pdf/Metal_Evolution_Family_Tree_poster_2.pdf


Now that all the acoustic panels are down there are plenty of nail holes to fix.. or by some more. I was thinking about getting a canvas of first Black Sabbath album.


----------



## beastaudio

How much was it to get printed? I can see doing one for myself, and perhaps even some for a few buddies of mine that I go to shows with. They would absolutely LOVE it.


----------



## carp

I used CavasHQ. I went with them because they are one of the few with the matte finish option and their customer service is great. I used a code (I think it was Facebooklike) to get a discount down to around 160. Sounds really expensive but this thing is NICE. Better than I hoped for.


----------



## carp

What I like most is that the colors POP but it doesn't reflect. Not sure how they pulled that off.


----------



## beastaudio

Wait, nevermind. Nickelback is on the poster. Whoever did that rundown clearly doesn't understand anything.


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Wait, nevermind. Nickelback is on the poster. Whoever did that rundown clearly doesn't understand anything.


Haha, hey man you have to take the good with the bad. Notice how that genre (which is all crap IMO) hasn't influenced anything.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Haha, hey man you have to take the good with the bad. Notice how that genre (which is all crap IMO) hasn't influenced anything.


How could it? There literally is no way to take any inspiration from that pile of garbage. I wish they had have added Children of Bodom to the Swedish category, surprised they aren't there. Glad In Flames made it though...


----------



## stitch1

Nickelback makes the list but Steel Panther doesn't cut it for glam metal?


----------



## beastaudio

What about The Darkness? Wouldn't they have stemmed off from the Glam Metal? Hehe. I Could do this all day.


----------



## stitch1

Beast... You just gotta believe (in a thing called love)


----------



## desertdome

So at RMAF we had Blu-ray concerts with:

Pre-Metal - Cream
Progressive Rock - Jethro Tull
Early Metal US - Aerosmith (actually just Steven Tyler)
Early Metal UK - Led Zeppelin
Progressive Metal - Dream Theater
Power Metal - Scorpions
Thrash Metal - Metallica
New Wave of British Heavy Metal - AC/DC
Goth Metal - Within Temptation
Industrial Metal - Nine Inch Nails


----------



## stitch1

Thats a pretty good list, DD. I heard you also had Tool.


----------



## desertdome

stitch1 said:


> Thats a pretty good list, DD. I heard you also had Tool.


Tool was just a CD.


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> How could it? There literally is no way to take any inspiration from that pile of garbage. I wish they had have added Children of Bodom to the Swedish category, surprised they aren't there. Glad In Flames made it though...


There should be a progressive death category. I'm not sure how many bands would be on it but that's where Opeth belongs.

As far as how much I don't like nickelback ( hmm actually I've hardly heard them) it pales in comparison to how I felt about Poison when I was growing up. That's what's so nice now. Back then you had to hear so much crap you didn't like to get to the good stuff. Now you can skip all the crap. I can't name a single nickelback song but unfortunately I haven't forgotten tons of names of poison crap songs.

Yeah bodom should be there as well as soil work or insomnium. 

Anyway, I'm older so for me it's more important to have all the early bands on it. anything from the late 90's on feels like a new band to me and not established enough to worry if they aren't on it. I know that's ridiculous to think that but I guess that happens when you get old. all the bands I really love from the 90's are there anyway. Fear factory, Tool, Opeth, Amon Amarth, Type O Negative, In Flames, etc.


----------



## carp

stitch1 said:


> Nickelback makes the list but Steel Panther doesn't cut it for glam metal?


Haha, I honestly had to look them up. I've heard of them but I don't think I've ever actually heard them. Again it cracks me up that you guys are all about the bottom of the list. My old eyes went to make sure to that Death Angel was in the thrash category for example.


----------



## stitch1




----------



## ambesolman

desertdome said:


> Tool was just a CD.



Yeah, sadly they've never put out a concert DVD to my knowledge. Damn shame too since they're so good live. Maybe someday...


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still


----------



## NWCgrad

Sounds like the Sabbath show was great! They are coming to Virginia in Aug. Would have to buy high are tickets to do it right.

I have had the first 6 Sabbath cd's in my car disc changer for past month. My drive time to work is 2.5 hrs/day (without traffic incident). Some days I have to play it louder than others due to all the idiotic drivers around DC. Sabbath is perfect driving tunes in my view. Next month will load up the player with punk rock again (Rancid, Sex Pistols, and Social Distortion). Will probably get arrested for aggressive driving.


----------



## NWCgrad

Carp, listening to Rush "Bytor and the Sowdog" in surround off the Fly By Night blu ray release (music only). Not a huge Rush fan, but damn this song in 7.2.4 (DSU) is awesome.


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> Carp, listening to Rush "Bytor and the Sowdog" in surround off the Fly By Night blu ray release (music only). Not a huge Rush fan, but damn this song in 7.2.4 (DSU) is awesome.



Woah, didn't know they had any of their classic albums in 5.1. A quick search shows they have Moving Pictures and 2112 in 5.1 as well. Wow, I'm going to have to get some of these. I never think of myself as a huge Rush fan, but I do love the 70's albums and early 80's albums. 

Steve, what do you think of 2 channel music up mixed to DSU?


----------



## NWCgrad

I typically listen in just stereo, but some music sounds much better in DSU. I find it hit or miss, and usually can't pick which will sound best with DSU. "Typically" the better the recording the higher the probability it will sound better using DSU.

I have the multichannel 2112 and it's great, it's my favorite Rush album. Funny I've never been a huge Rush fan, but I've seen them live 4 times - Black Sabbath/Ozzy/Dio/Metallica 0. Makes no sense. Seen Tom petty 8 times, but wife was a big fan.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Woah, didn't know they had any of their classic albums in 5.1. A quick search shows they have Moving Pictures and 2112 in 5.1 as well. Wow, I'm going to have to get some of these. I never think of myself as a huge Rush fan, but I do love the 70's albums and early 80's albums.
> 
> Steve, what do you think of 2 channel music up mixed to DSU?


I highly suggest moving pictures. It's quite solid in 5.1


----------



## carp

I need some help guys. A friend of mine is getting a screen and a projector, nothing else. He wants to use it mostly for sports and tv, but also the occasional movie in a very non dedicated (but VERY nice basement). The wall he wants the screen on has a fire place on it, so he wants a retractable screen. 

He doesn't need AT, he wants something that will look nice and be dependable. I have zero experience with retractable screens, so what companies/screens should I look at? 

thanks!


----------



## carp

Hmm... his ceiling is 9' so how does that work? The screen would be way to high unless he had a large masked out area above the screen? Either that or some kind of extensions that come down from the ceiling to connect the screen to?


----------



## carp

Something like this?

http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens-Starling-100-inch-ST100UWH-E24/dp/B00JAOGURO

Is tab tension a must have? Obviously if they cost a lot more.


----------



## Gooddoc

I'm just jumping in so you don't have to keep talking to yourself  .

But, yes, you nailed it. That's exactly what I did. I have a 24" drop Elite TE100HW2-E24 http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens-CineTension2-100-inch-Tab-Tensioned/dp/B001A7Z75A?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00 and I just put the limiter at the height I wanted the screen to stop.

Chances are, without the tensioners, you will have waves. Waves suck 

Edit: I paid a couple hundred less than the current price. I guess there's been some price increases.


----------



## carp

Haha, not the first time I've had a one way conversation on the forum. 

Ok, cool thanks Doc. Damn... I was hoping the TT wasn't necessary but I hear you. Looking at the reviews it seems some have had issues with waves even with TT. 

A local store in Lincoln NE wants to charge my friend 7000 for a screen, projector (they recommend the Sony 40 at 1999), remote, and installation. I said, screw that - order the screen and projector yourself and I'll come up and help and you can save thousands. Also, I think the Epson 3500 will be better for him since he is in a bright room and will use it mainly for sports and tv so that puts screen and projector at a total of around 3000.


----------



## popalock

carp said:


> Hmm... his ceiling is 9' so how does that work? The screen would be way to high unless he had a large masked out area above the screen? Either that or some kind of extensions that come down from the ceiling to connect the screen to?


He doesn't have to ceiling mount the PJ screen. He could do something like what I did in Doha and make a hard valance. It's mounted about 6" down from the ceiling and the brackets included can be wall or ceiling mounted. 






Basically mount the screen at the selected height and the valance would hide it perfectly. I swear I have seen @RMK! with this type of setup in his secondary viewing space (living room?), but I could be mistaken. 


Gooddoc said:


> I'm just jumping in so you don't have to keep talking to yourself  .
> 
> But, yes, you nailed it. That's exactly what I did. I have a 24" drop Elite TE100HW2-E24 http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens-CineTension2-100-inch-Tab-Tensioned/dp/B001A7Z75A?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00 and I just put the limiter at the height I wanted the screen to stop.
> 
> Chances are, without the tensioners, you will have waves. Waves suck
> 
> Edit: I paid a couple hundred less than the current price. I guess there's been some price increases.


I think I ended up purchasing the same series, but I have the 135" version without the extra drop and it was $1,600ish shipped to me out in Doha. This model would be unecessary if he doesn't have the need for an AT screen. 

I took this video for someone here on AVS by their request just showing the tab tension mechanism. 






Even with the tab tension screen, it still had small waves. That said, it was 100% unnoticeable when viewing. 

@Carp, if your friend is going to be using this in a brighter viewing area, I would recommend he get something with Ambient Light Rejection (ALR) material. I have no direct experience with ALR, but it is specifically made for brighter viewing environments and I think it would benefit him. I bought a light cannon to assist viewing sports with ambient light, but my specific screen still washes out pretty bad when you start to introduce light in the room.


----------



## carp

Thanks Austin! I'll have him take a look at your post and see if ALR is something he wants to go with. My worry with screens that have a lot of gain is the sparklies or even some hot spotting but I'll check some reviews. It's a huge walk out basement with lots of big windows so ambient light is a factor for sure, he'll have to get some curtains IMO.


----------



## Archaea

grey screens or even black screens? It looks like that elite on amazon you were looking at has different screen material selection. A darker screen material can help with ambient light.


----------



## Gooddoc

popalock said:


> He doesn't have to ceiling mount the PJ screen. He could do something like what I did in Doha and make a hard valance. It's mounted about 6" down from the ceiling and the brackets included can be wall or ceiling mounted.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL5NWYPmh7M
> 
> Basically mount the screen at the selected height and the valance would hide it perfectly. I swear I have seen @RMK! with this type of setup in his secondary viewing space (living room?), but I could be mistaken.
> 
> 
> I think I ended up purchasing the same series, but I have the 135" version without the extra drop and it was $1,600ish shipped to me out in Doha. This model would be unecessary if he doesn't have the need for an AT screen.
> 
> I took this video for someone here on AVS by their request just showing the tab tension mechanism.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5zst1G8rDM
> 
> Even with the tab tension screen, it still had small waves. That said, it was 100% unnoticeable when viewing.
> 
> @Carp, if your friend is going to be using this in a brighter viewing area, I would recommend he get something with Ambient Light Rejection (ALR) material. I have no direct experience with ALR, but it is specifically made for brighter viewing environments and I think it would benefit him. I bought a light cannon to assist viewing sports with ambient light, but my specific screen still washes out pretty bad when you start to introduce light in the room.


Valance: great idea. I just wanted to take 4 screws and mount it, so I went with a drop. 

Light also an issue, but that's why I have a plasma mounted behind my screen. At night, with lights off, my screen looks great with 180 deg viewing and zero sparkles or crap like that. When too much light I watch the plasma. 95% of all my PJ watching is at night, so hasnt been a big issue. You have to pick your poison when going with a PJ if not a dedicated HT.


----------



## popalock

Gooddoc said:


> Valance: great idea. I just wanted to take 4 screws and mount it, so I went with a drop.
> 
> *Light also an issue, but that's why I have a plasma mounted behind my screen.* At night, with lights off, my screen looks great with 180 deg viewing and zero sparkles or crap like that. When too much light I watch the plasma. 95% of all my PJ watching is at night, so hasnt been a big issue. *You have to pick your poison when going with a PJ if not a dedicated HT.*


Plasma behind the PJ screen is also a great idea and usually is a compromise when going with an AT screen with a center channel...Guess Mark still made it work!


----------



## Gooddoc

popalock said:


> Plasma behind the PJ screen is also a great idea and usually is a compromise when going with an AT screen with a center channel...Guess Mark still made it work!


My screen is not AT and I am running a phantom center. It would sound like that would be full of compromises, but it really works very well. It's not to say there's not compromises, just that they really don't have the impact you think they would.


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> Something like this?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens-Starling-100-inch-ST100UWH-E24/dp/B00JAOGURO
> 
> Is tab tension a must have? Obviously if they cost a lot more.


Yes, that would be a good option for him. Your link took me to a $612 one instead of the $295 screen. 

What is his throw distance? He should go with as small a size as possible if he wants the brightest image. It is amazing how much the brightness drops off with a larger screen. Tab tension isn't a must have. The bar on the Elilte Screens is heavy enough to keep the screen quite flat without the tab tensioning. 

A darker screen helps maintain contrast ratio in ambient light. However, you also loose a lot of on-screen brightness. 

Another PJ to consider is the BenQ HC1200. You can buy them directly from Benq for $529. However, the lens shift of the Epson makes setup so much easier. 

I recommend the Peerless PRG Series PRG-EXA-W 8.7-Inch to 12.8-Inch Adjustable Projector Ceiling/Wall Mount Kit (Black) if he can get away with one with that amount of drop. If he needs more drop, then there is this one with a 19.1 to 32.6" drop or a 12.6 to 20.6" drop.

If he wants to come to Omaha to see an Elite retractable, I could show one to him.


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> Yes, that would be a good option for him. Your link took me to a $612 one instead of the $295 screen.
> 
> What is his throw distance? He should go with as small a size as possible if he wants the brightest image. It is amazing how much the brightness drops off with a larger screen. Tab tension isn't a must have. The bar on the Elilte Screens is heavy enough to keep the screen quite flat without the tab tensioning.
> 
> A darker screen helps maintain contrast ratio in ambient light. However, you also loose a lot of on-screen brightness.
> 
> Another PJ to consider is the BenQ HC1200. You can buy them directly from Benq for $529. However, the lens shift of the Epson makes setup so much easier.
> 
> I recommend the Peerless PRG Series PRG-EXA-W 8.7-Inch to 12.8-Inch Adjustable Projector Ceiling/Wall Mount Kit (Black) if he can get away with one with that amount of drop. If he needs more drop, then there is this one with a 19.1 to 32.6" drop or a 12.6 to 20.6" drop.
> 
> If he wants to come to Omaha to see an Elite retractable, I could show one to him.


The 100 inch screen is 295, but the 120 inch size is 716 on your link. Hmm interesting, it would save over 600 bucks to go with out the tensioning. I'll give him both options. 

I recommended the same chief mount I use, mostly because I'm familiar with it and it is very solid and easy to make adjustments. 

Wow, that Benq is crazy cheap I'll let him know. It looks just as good as the Epson?

Thanks for the suggestions Michael.


----------



## Gooddoc

I first ordered mine without the tensioning, and promptly sent it back after a few weeks due to waves. Just a single data point though. HMMV


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> I recommended the same chief mount I use, mostly because I'm familiar with it and it is very solid and easy to make adjustments.
> 
> Wow, that Benq is crazy cheap I'll let him know. It looks just as good as the Epson?)


The 125" Elite tensioned screen is $573.99 and the 125" non-tensioned is $297.49. These include the basic IR remote. Some of the more expensive non-tensioned include more remote capabiilty like RF.

I didn't know how cheap he wanted to go.  There is a guy I know that makes all kinds of money, but wants me to recommend a $150 subwoofer because more than that is too expensive. For its price, and for someone that wants to take the time to get the projector mounted perfectly, the Benq is a good starter projector. 

The Chief is better than the Peerless and the Epson is better than the Benq and the tensioned is better than the non-tensioned. Sometimes you have to offer a cheap alternative to get somebody to buy the right, more expensive product. People would rather be the "smart" guy than the "cheap" guy. I think the same way and often equate the more expensive choice as the smarter choice. Once we make the "smart" choice, we move on and never go back and compare to the "cheap" choice - unless you are @Archaea.


----------



## Archaea

hehehe...


11 Mackie C200 = $1,600 shipped (at the price I paid - (9 and $129 on a closeout sale at Adorma.com and 2 and $200 full street price from Sweetwater.com)
11 JTR 228HT = $11,000 shipped (at the $1K intro price initially available to all -- what I paid)

JTR makes a better speaker, yes... 10x's better? 10x better for cinema? Not a chance!

I still like to compare speakers and see what else is out there -- though for a value proposition - I think I'm sitting pretty cozy. "Value for the performance point" tends to be my subjective "smart". Generically - I think I'm good with ~85%+ performance at a significantly lesser price point.

I had a guy off craigslist demo my theater last week with quite a bit of audio experiences. He asked me how much my speakers cost - I told him everyday street cost was $200 but you could buy them on sale nearly anytime at $170. He said wow - by the sound of them he figured they were about $1,000 dollar monitors. That might be generous, but I think they do represent a good value and his comment speaks to that. 

That same value perception is what originally led me to JTR Subwoofers --- At the time I bought the JTR Caps I had a pair of SVS PB 13 Ultras purchased from a local guy. I bought the SVS right after the 2011 subwoofer meet, but figured pretty early on into the SVS ownership I made a mistake. I knew a single cap had pretty easily delivered a more impressive experience at the meet than the two PB13 Ultras did. I realized (at the time) I could sell the pair of SVS (brand recognition) for just like $500 under the price of two passive caps! Throw in an EP4000 for $300 and talk about value to performance delivered! I think in the end I'm more of a subwoofer aficionado than a speaker aficionado - so while I still hold interest for a LCR set of the old 212HT, my pocket book, and common sense side is happy with what I have.


---------------

FWIW - I bought a Dalite 95" wide pull down screen for my old theater originally. I used it for years. It was not tensioned, and it did have waves. The waves were not a problem unless there was panning --- it always annoyed me --- maybe that's not common - I don't have that much experience with it. I know your friend could build a DIY screen for about $80 bucks and a half day if money is the primary concern. JoAnne's blackout cloth is cheap and works great for a projector experience - stapled with tension to a cheap velvet covered frame.


----------



## carp

I've been thinking about buying one of these to power my mains for the last few months, finally pulled the trigger:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XTi4002


Bought one used on ebay for 620 and free shipping. That's the cheapest price I've seen after following it for the last couple months at least. I've been told they have even more power than the inuke 6000 which is way more than I need. That surprises me since the 6000 has close to 2000 watts and the Crown is rated at 1200 per channel, but like I said power isn't really an issue anyway. My biggest motivation is that Jeff at JTR suggested this amp. He doesn't think the inukes are great for speakers and I want to see for myself. If I can't tell a difference I could sell without much of a loss I would think. 

I also am getting a minidsp 88A. Fedex tracking said it was leaving Anchorage yesterday at 3:55 PM but today it says it's already on the truck in Lenexa ready for delivery. Not sure how that's possible, but I'll take it.


----------



## d_c

are you going to run the surrounds through that also? Are you going to use the inuke for them?


----------



## carp

I have an old Yamaha that has pre out/main ins to run the center and 4 surrounds. I like that because I'll have less chance of hiss from the high sensitivity 212 center. 

The 88A showed up today. This... is going to be a process. It will be awhile before I even turn the thing on. First thing I'm going to do is rearrange the components on the rack so that the avr is on the top rack, below that the 88A, and below that the Yamaha. Why do I have so many wires.... and I'm adding a ton more!!


----------



## carp

One of the inukes I'll bridge to give more power the nearfield sub and the other I'll use one channel to power the Crowson, leaving a channel open for a future Crowson.


----------



## DotJun

No Atmos for you? Also, wouldn't Dirac on the center be important for movie watching?


----------



## carp

Not yet. For some reason I'm really patient on that front. I'm going to wait until it's more of a standard thing with AVR's. 

Dirac will be on all 7 speakers, and the subs. I will use the Crown amp to power the L and R and the old receiver to power the center and surrounds.


----------



## Stoked21

Dirac on subs and atmos first. For movies

Dirac on LR and subs for music. 

My opinion and experience. thats how I noticed the most gain. 

Again. Just my opinion!!!


----------



## dwaleke

Dirac on the center has made the biggest difference imo.


----------



## carp

I knew Disturbed had covered Paul Simon's The Sound of Silence on their newest album and I loved it the first time I heard it. However, I did not realize that the band played the song live on Conan. I just watched it. Wow, this is one of the most impressive sounding songs I've ever heard on a tv show. 

Nice that the video is 1080p too.

Jonathan, when you get a chance watch the video on your system. I dare you not to like it!!   He really has an amazing voice, such power and range. 







@Archaea


----------



## DotJun

Is it my recording or does Van Halen's 1984 album have zero bass?


----------



## carp

It might be your recording. Check the drum intro to Hot for Teacher, there should be some pretty decent midbass for sure. If you have a PC or laptop connected to your system check the album on google play or spotify or whatever and compare against yours.


----------



## DotJun

carp said:


> It might be your recording. Check the drum intro to Hot for Teacher, there should be some pretty decent midbass for sure. If you have a PC or laptop connected to your system check the album on google play or spotify or whatever and compare against yours.



That was the exact track I had going actually. I'll re-rip my cd and see if that helps.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> I knew Disturbed had covered Paul Simon's The Sound of Silence on their newest album and I loved it the first time I heard it. However, I did not realize that the band played the song live on Conan. I just watched it. Wow, this is one of the most impressive sounding songs I've ever heard on a tv show.
> 
> Nice that the video is 1080p too.
> 
> Jonathan, when you get a chance watch the video on your system. I dare you not to like it!!   He really has an amazing voice, such power and range.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk7RVw3I8eg
> 
> 
> @Archaea


Yea man, that version is incredible. Steve (@NWCgrad) brought the new album when he came through a few months ago and we gave it a listen. I like the album version just fine, but that one from Conan gives me chills. Truly impressive.


----------



## carp

I'm trying to make sure my signal chain is optimized so I'm looking up input sensitivity numbers on my amps. 

The CV 5000 says 1.42v (+5.3 db) but that is for 8 ohms, it doesn't say what the sensitivity is for 4 ohms. 

I read through the manual specs for the inuke 3000 but I don't see the input sensitivity, does anyone know?


----------



## Archaea

carp said:


> I knew Disturbed had covered Paul Simon's The Sound of Silence on their newest album and I loved it the first time I heard it. However, I did not realize that the band played the song live on Conan. I just watched it. Wow, this is one of the most impressive sounding songs I've ever heard on a tv show.
> 
> Nice that the video is 1080p too.
> 
> Jonathan, when you get a chance watch the video on your system. I dare you not to like it!!   He really has an amazing voice, such power and range.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk7RVw3I8eg
> 
> 
> @Archaea


WOW --- no kidding! That's really good. Gave me chills! He's got some pipes!


----------



## carp

Had a movie night last night and during Deadpool the subs starting making a funny noise. I went back and checked the amp and the protect lights were blinking on the CV 5000. I turned it off, waited awhile and turned it back on and all was well for the rest of Deadpool and then Creed.

Later I checked the amp, thinking all was fine but I noticed that the fans weren't running. Turned it off and on and one fan came on and the other didn't, but after 10 seconds or so the fan that was working suddenly stopped. When I turn it off and back on sometimes that fan comes on for a few seconds and sometimes it doesn't come on at all. The fan on the other side never comes on at all. 

So I figured that a connection had come lose. I just now opened up the amp and checked it and nothing is lose.

Tried the original fans and they don't work either. 

It has to be the fact that I changed the fans because the amp has worked flawlessly for the past 3.5 years, but I don't understand what could have gone wrong. After I changed them I checked every couple of days to see if the new fans were still working and they were working just fine. Last night was the first time since I've changed the fans that I had the system cranked up pretty loud and there was a lot of low bass in Deadpool. 

Any ideas? thanks


----------



## carp

Nevermind. 

When I hooked up both of the original fans they both fired up, whew. Hooked up the replacement fans again and they don't work. One fo them spins for a few seconds but then it stops and the other fan doesn't work at all. 

I think my attempts at fan modding are over, I haven't modded the inukes yet and I don't think I'm going to.


----------



## NWCgrad

That had to be nerve wracking.


----------



## DotJun

Fans break, simple as that. Don't let it discourage your fan modding.


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> That had to be nerve wracking.



Yeah, sure was. I thought for awhile there that I'd have to buy a new amp. That CV is a tough amp for sure, I've abused it for 3.5 years and then I run a movie and a half with a stupid hot house curve with no fans running in the amp and it survived!! 

Got it all hooked up again tonight and running like nothing happened.


----------



## carp

DotJun said:


> Fans break, simple as that. Don't let it discourage your fan modding.


I hear you, and I may do it again but that's just where my heads at tonight.


----------



## Stoked21

Fans break. I use to rep nichicon and a few other fan companies. Both sleeve and bearing. Common issue they always fail. Just buy new fans as they're cheap anyway. Dirt, crud, grease wear out and dry out.....happens


----------



## carp

These were brand new fans though, and I had never had any issues with the original fans (well, other than being loud!!). 

I had the low bass (Below 25 hz) boosted crazy high during Deadpool and I know that put a lot of strain on the CV 5000. That's when the fans died. Quite a coincidence that both fans died, not just one. 

Later this week I'm going to try the exact same settings with Deadpool again and see what happens.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Damn, man. I'm sorry the new fans broke. Lol, I've never even heard of such a thing happening so quickly. They were either defective (hard to believe from Noctua) or.... you did something. 

Don't let that discourage you from modding fans though. I've modded all my amps and they are all in tip-top shape. Though I don't run my gear as hard as the rest of you do. That's the problem!!

I know you don't want to hear this but... if any of you are having thermal shutdowns and other things like clipping amps often.... YOU are the people who need more and/or better amplifiers because what you have can't keep up with your demands.


Sheldon, you and I are getting by with our single 5K on the eight 18's but it really isn't the most optimal configuration. It's shocking how far we can get with it though. Your room is much larger than mine and I get all sorts of other house noises keeping me from pushing my system as hard. Maybe it's time you pick up a second one or trade in for ...something more powerful and robust.


Oh and ... Happy 4th! Buy more amps.


----------



## Archaea

those fans shouldn't fail unless one of the following occurred

--- the voltage is so low it can't supply the motor
--- the voltage was too hight and it oversupplied the motor and burnt it up.


No way those fans failed out of use in so short a time. I've had literally dozens of PC fans through out the years and I've never seen that kind of thing happen. By the time these fans fail (if they work initially) they will be literally covered in dust and hair and make little off balance sounds and rock back and forth when you turn them on but never spin up - etc...


----------



## Scott Simonian

Did you get the same Noctua fans I linked to you, Carp?

Mine are still working just fine. No special wiring or circuits needed. Just swapped out the stock fans.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Damn, man. I'm sorry the new fans broke. Lol, I've never even heard of such a thing happening so quickly. They were either defective (hard to believe from Noctua) or.... you did something.
> 
> Don't let that discourage you from modding fans though. I've modded all my amps and they are all in tip-top shape. Though I don't run my gear as hard as the rest of you do. That's the problem!!
> 
> I know you don't want to hear this but... if any of you are having thermal shutdowns and other things like clipping amps often.... YOU are the people who need more and/or better amplifiers because what you have can't keep up with your demands.
> 
> 
> Sheldon, you and I are getting by with our single 5K on the eight 18's but it really isn't the most optimal configuration. It's shocking how far we can get with it though. Your room is much larger than mine and I get all sorts of other house noises keeping me from pushing my system as hard. Maybe it's time you pick up a second one or trade in for ...something more powerful and robust.
> 
> 
> Oh and ... Happy 4th! Buy more amps.


I have to admit a sick part of me was a bit disappointed when the old fans fired up and worked fine because I was already thinking about going amp shopping! 




Archaea said:


> those fans shouldn't fail unless one of the following occurred
> 
> --- the voltage is so low it can't supply the motor
> --- the voltage was too hight and it oversupplied the motor and burnt it up.
> 
> 
> No way those fans failed out of use in so short a time. I've had literally dozens of PC fans through out the years and I've never seen that kind of thing happen. By the time these fans fail (if they work initially) they will be literally covered in dust and hair and make little off balance sounds and rock back and forth when you turn them on but never spin up - etc...


The Noctua fans worked just fine when I did the mod. I checked every couple days or so to make sure they were still working and everything was fine for over a week. 

Then on Saturday Deadpool happened. 

I'll post the omnimic graph later (I forgot to save it so I'll have to run it again) because it made me laugh out loud and slap my forehead with my hand. The low end bass was incredible during the movie (made me more giddy than John Wick), so I figured I'd run a sweep using the exact same settings I had during the movie. What I didn't remember before starting the movie is that I had already turned on a low bass boost in the mini 2x4 and I was using another low bass boost with the 88 BM plug in. When I saw the omnimic sweep I remembered what I had done. I can't believe I didn't trip the breaker. 

So, is it possible that this was too much for those fans? I'm going to try the same settings again sometime this week and see if it kills the current fans. 




Scott Simonian said:


> Did you get the same Noctua fans I linked to you, Carp?
> 
> Mine are still working just fine. No special wiring or circuits needed. Just swapped out the stock fans.


Yes, the exact fans. On Sunday night I went back and forth over and over again connecting the Noctua fans and the old fans. Every time the old fans fired up fine and the Noctua fans didn't budge.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Lol. Yeah...obviously too much. You broke them.


----------



## carp

Haha, so I thought I was breaker limited but I'm actually fan limited!!  

Getting back to your original point about getting another or new amps. By the math getting another CV 5000 gets me 1.5 db's more headroom. I need to give each driver 1250 watts to get an increase of 3 db's. What amps would be required to get this? 

I have a feeling that the reality would be a bit different than the math shows with getting another CV 5000. Surely I'd gain a bit more headroom running the amp in 4 ohs instead of 2 and only 2 drivers per channel.... right? There has to be something to putting much less of a load on the amp??

I have to say I'm a huge fan of the CV 5000. Running it with no fans with that stupid curve for 1.5 movies and I didn't kill it. Not to mention running it in 2 ohms for 3.5 years and the experts say 2 ohms is an amp killer.


----------



## carp

Here is what I was running for Deadpool and Creed. 








Master volume around 12 under reference with the up front subs 6 db's hot and the near sub at -3, my wife prefers the volume around -12 for most movies. 

Earlier in that day I tested my inputs and outputs of all by devices with the same ^ settings and everything was fine. I couldn't find the scuba steve disk with the hulk, but I found other disks and tried all kinds of scenes. 2 scenes caused clipping - very slight clipping on the minidsp 2x4 out to the up front subs and also quick red light blinking on the CV 500, but no clipping on the 88 BM output lights, no clipping on inuke 3000 input or output, and no clipping on the 2x4 input.

You would think that it would sound bad, but it wasn't boomy at all. Bass was tight and TONS of low end feel. It was a pretty unrealistic for Creed but still very enjoyable and I asked everyone multiple times if there was too much low bass and everyone said no and was liking it.


----------



## carp

Oops, sub hotness stated above was before all the stooopid boosting obviously.


----------



## JDontee

Good lord man. I think I can feel your 15hz at my house. Was this a sweep in stereo, or just one speaker?


----------



## carp

That was the center channel and subs.


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> That was the center channel and subs.


You mean it was the center channel test signal with bass management turned on?


----------



## carp

Yes


----------



## JDontee

Is your center still the 212?


----------



## carp

Yep, still have the 212.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> Haha, so I thought I was breaker limited but I'm actually fan limited!!
> 
> Getting back to your original point about getting another or new amps. By the math getting another CV 5000 gets me 1.5 db's more headroom. I need to give each driver 1250 watts to get an increase of 3 db's. What amps would be required to get this?
> 
> I have a feeling that the reality would be a bit different than the math shows with getting another CV 5000. Surely I'd gain a bit more headroom running the amp in 4 ohs instead of 2 and only 2 drivers per channel.... right? There has to be something to putting much less of a load on the amp??
> 
> I have to say I'm a huge fan of the CV 5000. Running it with no fans with that stupid curve for 1.5 movies and I didn't kill it. Not to mention running it in 2 ohms for 3.5 years and the experts say 2 ohms is an amp killer.


Well then. If you only look at it that way. 

If all you want is more dB then you must upgrade your system. My suggestion was more so to keep from running your amp(s) at their ragged edge. Do it for less thermal shutdowns and chances of clipping. Not for more total output.

But if you want more ....the next step is something like the Crest Pro-lite 7.5 I think that's what @*beastaudio* has on part of his HT18 system. After that, go to the SpeakerPower amps. Won't need the biggest one, thankfully.



carp said:


> Here is what I was running for Deadpool and Creed.


Aww geez! No wonder.  Looks like you are about +30dB hot @ 15hz from the rest of the audible bandwidth. 















That is ULF-tarded response.


----------



## lukeamdman

Great Jamaican honk!


And people think I run my subs hot...


----------



## carp

I have found that as long as I keep the bass at 40-50hz about 10 db's hot then I can pretty much go as crazy as I want below that and it still sounds non boomy and is a ton of fun. 

Luke, if you get a chance you should mimic this curve in your room. You have so much more headroom than I do you won't have to worry about blowing up fans in your amps!!  

I won't run it this hot down low on a normal basis, but Deadpool with this curve would have been the perfect demo during the KC crawl last year.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Looks like fun but also just... too much, imho.

I recently removed 6dB of boost from my system and I don't feel like I am really missing anything. Was flat to 5hz but now I'm -6dB down there which I'm fine with. Was just "too heavy" sounding before. Needed 15dB of boost to get that response and I think it was just too much for my amp section. I'd rather have more headroom than to waste it but I know that's a controversial comment for some. 

Now... I'm just justifying my own actions based on the limitations of my own system. I don't think that much ULF is bad (a little ridiculous but in a good way) just real "hot" from the rest and not the original intent of the presentation.

Btw, I think this is awesome. Carp, you had lamented about your response last year (it dropped off a bit


----------



## carp

Over the long haul there is no way I'll use this much boost. For a demo? Hell yeah!! 

I bet this kind of curve would actually be appropriate for movies that start dropping like a rock below 30 - 40hz. Maybe The Hobbit would suck less..


----------



## beastaudio

So what exactly does the 88BM do?


----------



## Scott Simonian

This super advanced device is now aware of this thing called 'bass management'.

Good going, Dirac!


----------



## JDontee

I'm guessing that sweep of your center was with Dirac?


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> So what exactly does the 88BM do?





Scott Simonian said:


> This super advanced device is now aware of this thing called 'bass management'.
> 
> Good going, Dirac!



They got all these fancy buttons, knobs, whistles, etc. Just what every boy with a undiagnosed case of ADHD needs.


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> I'm guessing that sweep of your center was with Dirac?


Yes, that was with Dirac on. It's pretty good without, I assume since it's in a pink flufffy baffle wall, but it's not as good as with Dirac. 

My mains are much better with Dirac in their wide position. The difference between dirac on/off isn't as great with the mains closer together.


----------



## carp

I'll post some screenshots of what the 88 BM looks like.


----------



## carp

It gives you all of the function of a minidsp combined with the dsp on the inuke. It's awesome for a guy like me that loves to make tweaks while listening to music, and also for finding the best settings for movies - I do leave these alone once I figure out what I like. 

Other than being a tweaker's dream (yes I know how that sounds ) it is nice to have BM selectable AFTER the auto EQ. I believe that this is the only auto EQ that does it that way (well, of the affordable auto EQ options). 

So, you can take a look at your Dirac results on the omnimic or REW and if it's not real smooth at the crossover, you can choose whatever crossover you want, with whatever db slope you want. 

I'd have been willing to pay for a stand alone inuke dsp unit, so this is like that but with more options.


----------



## beastaudio

So I am seeing with these settings that you basically run all satellite speakers full range on your AVR and let the dirac unit do ALL the bass management for you? That's pretty cool if so, provided almost all popular units do a pretty poor job (technically none at all) of proper bass management...


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> So I am seeing with these settings that you basically run all satellite speakers full range on your AVR and let the dirac unit do ALL the bass management for you? That's pretty cool if so, provided almost all popular units do a pretty poor job (technically none at all) of proper bass management...


Yes, that's how you do it. Set all speakers to large and set the crossover for the sub in the AVR to as high as it will go and then use the 88 BM to set all the crossovers.


----------



## JDontee

So did it also do a good job integrating your front subs and nearfield? Or did you have to do some tweaking with the delays?


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> So did it also do a good job integrating your front subs and nearfield? Or did you have to do some tweaking with the delays?


I have to use a minidsp 2x4 that I already had to account for the difference in distance between the nearfield and the up front subs. What I did was run a Dirac calibration with just speakers and front subs, near subs were off to establish the delay of the front subs. Then I ran dirac calibration again with the speakers and near sub, front subs off to get that delay. 

Then I added the difference in the delays to the near sub in the 2x4. I ran omnimic sweeps with all subs on, speakers muted to see if that delay did indeed give the smoothest response and it did fortunately. 

Here is the all the subs together, no speakers and no smoothing.


----------



## JDontee

I see. So does your AVR only have one preout for your subs? I have two preouts on mine and I use one for the front and the other for the nearfield. My audyssey can't seem to get the distance right for the NF, so I end up playing with the delay in the inuke and checking with REW until it's the best. I read mtg's multiple sub integration, which is awesome, and I plan on following it when I finally get all my treatments done and subs in their correct homes. I'm just wondering if there was a better trick to integrating the NF a little quicker.


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> I see. So does your AVR only have one preout for your subs? I have two preouts on mine and I use one for the front and the other for the nearfield. My audyssey can't seem to get the distance right for the NF, so I end up playing with the delay in the inuke and checking with REW until it's the best. I read mtg's multiple sub integration, which is awesome, and I plan on following it when I finally get all my treatments done and subs in their correct homes. I'm just wondering if there was a better trick to integrating the NF a little quicker.


Yes, I only have one sub out. I have two, but it's just an internal Y splitter so I can't do different distances from the AVR. 

Does Audyssey do better on the NF distance if you turn off your other subs? If so, you could use those numbers in the the 2x4 like I did using Dirac. 

I have been avoiding Matt's sub integration because I hear it hurts the brain trying to figure it out!!


----------



## JDontee

It tests the subs one at a time, and still does a bad job. I'm guessing it has to do with the direction the sub is facing? Hell if I know.


----------



## beastaudio

JDontee said:


> It tests the subs one at a time, and still does a bad job. I'm guessing it has to do with the direction the sub is facing? Hell if I know.


Nah, It simply just doesn't take into account the way the two subs interact with each other. It optimizes both individually, but never measures how they sound when played at the same time. It's dumb and pointless, BUT it is very nice to have the ability to set two different distances...you just have to do the leg-work yourself basically.


----------



## JDontee

beastaudio said:


> Nah, It simply just doesn't take into account the way the two subs interact with each other. It optimizes both individually, but never measures how they sound when played at the same time. It's dumb and pointless, BUT it is very nice to have the ability to set two different distances...you just have to do the leg-work yourself basically.


ahhh man...where's the dislike button? I guess I just gotta do the work.


----------



## carp

Decided to pop in the Metallica S&M DVD for some reason. Wow. I haven't watched this in at least 10 years, maybe more. I wore it out when it came out in 99, along with the DVD Cunning Stunts that came out a couple years before that. 

I have seen it so many times.... but it never sounded anything like this. Amazing. Sure, it's lame that the picture is dvd and in 4:3 aspect ratio for god's sake, but they had me at The Call of Ktulu, and I can't stop listening. The symphony fits so well, even on the songs from albums I don't love. Hero of the Day for example - that French horn part is just a perfect match to the music and was a big goose bumps moment. 

It's sad Michael Kamen died, he really did an amazing job writing all the music for the orchestra part. 

2:20 AM and I can't keep myself from starting up disk 2.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> decided to pop in the metallica s&m dvd for some reason. Wow. I haven't watched this in at least 10 years, maybe more. I wore it out when it came out in 99, along with the dvd cunning stunts that came out a couple years before that.
> 
> I have seen it so many times.... But it never sounded anything like this.  Amazing. Sure, it's lame that the picture is dvd and in 4:3 aspect ratio for god's sake, but they had me at the call of ktulu, and i can't stop listening. The symphony fits so well, even on the songs from albums i don't love. Hero of the day for example - that french horn part is just a perfect match to the music and was a big goose bumps moment.
> 
> It's sad michael kamen died, he really did an amazing job writing all the music for the orchestra part.
> 
> 2:20 am and i can't keep myself from starting up disk 2.


"michael kamen at the helmmmmmmyeaaaa"


----------



## JDontee

When you get bored, you should post your center channel sweeps with Dirac and without. I know sweeps don't always correlate with better sound, but I guess I just like graphs...


----------



## carp

Oops, sorry JD... I get sidetracked with changing stuff all the time and forgot all about it, I'll try to do better. 


Question. I like using velvet all around my screen, including below it down to the floor. The problem is that I since I have my speakers behind the screen I don't want any part of the drivers covered by velvet on the L and R main speakers by the velvet. Is there a material out there than is AT but dark like velvet? If not... I may have to rethink this whole put the speakers behind the screen thing.


----------



## JDontee

Don't sweat it. What I really want to know is how hot does DIRAC run the bass on their normal target curve. If you run a sweep on your center, does the bass match the sweep of the LFE? or is the LFE 10db hotter than the center?


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> Oops, sorry JD... I get sidetracked with changing stuff all the time and forgot all about it, I'll try to do better.
> 
> 
> Question. I like using velvet all around my screen, including below it down to the floor. The problem is that I since I have my speakers behind the screen I don't want any part of the drivers covered by velvet on the L and R main speakers by the velvet. Is there a material out there than is AT but dark like velvet? If not... I may have to rethink this whole put the speakers behind the screen thing.


I use Millibel™ AT black backing from Seymour AV for black panels on the left and right of my screen. Mine are just velcroed at the top and free hang. You can get it 98" wide so it can go from floor to ceiling. I also used it at RMAF last year to create a screenwall in the room. The top and sides in this picture from RMAF are Millibel.


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> Don't sweat it. What I really want to know is how hot does DIRAC run the bass on their normal target curve. If you run a sweep on your center, does the bass match the sweep of the LFE? or is the LFE 10db hotter than the center?


Good question, now you have me curious...


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> I use Millibel™ AT black backing from Seymour AV for black panels on the left and right of my screen. Mine are just velcroed at the top and free hang. You can get it 98" wide so it can go from floor to ceiling. I also used it at RMAF last year to create a screenwall in the room. The top and sides in this picture from RMAF are Millibel.


Ok thanks Michael, I'll look into it.


----------



## shivaji

Congrats on the sale of your speakers.
and now the quest for something new. This is where Audiogon is you friend and could be fun in the process. You can buy and sell multiple speakers, set them up in your room and find that perfect pair for music. For instance, this pair of speakers from Dunlavy, which is supposed to have bass down to 20hz and below. 
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/f...stering-monitors-2016-11-01-speakers-23114-va

Or perhaps, something a little different and still in the horn theme, like JTR's 

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/f...mo-system-2016-10-15-speakers-78705-austin-tx


----------



## JDontee

LCR WITH 1899s.


----------



## carp

shivaji said:


> Congrats on the sale of your speakers.
> and now the quest for something new. This is where Audiogon is you friend and could be fun in the process. You can buy and sell multiple speakers, set them up in your room and find that perfect pair for music. For instance, this pair of speakers from Dunlavy, which is supposed to have bass down to 20hz and below.
> https://www.audiogon.com/listings/f...stering-monitors-2016-11-01-speakers-23114-va
> 
> Or perhaps, something a little different and still in the horn theme, like JTR's
> 
> https://www.audiogon.com/listings/f...mo-system-2016-10-15-speakers-78705-austin-tx



Thanks! It is cool to have options and it's tempting to try out some speakers I've never heard before. I think I'm itching to get the 4722's behind the screen though for a proper movie setup and then down the road I might start experimenting with different movie speakers. 



JDontee said:


> LCR WITH 1899s.


Very curious about these, however... I was just texting with Gorilla today and he said he's done with DIY speakers because when the time comes when you want to try something else you can't sell them. Makes sense.


----------



## carp

Listening to some 2 channel music on my stop gap 5.1 system. LCR are volt 10 LX and surrounds are eD cinema's with upgraded CD (can't remember which one). 

Music is sounding.... ok at best. However, I haven't run Dirac yet so that could help.


----------



## JDontee

Just don't sell them. Problem solved. I see your point though, especially if you suffer from upgraditis occasionally. But if you think about cash lost after changing speakers, you will probably only have $3k in those 1899s. How does that compare to your 212 and 215 sale?


----------



## carp

5200 so I have some walking around money.


----------



## COACH2369

Did somebody mention the JBL 4722's?.. @Frohlich


----------



## raynist

Listen to the new Metallica album yet?

Did Dirac make 2 ch any better. Listening to CD1 for the 2nd time today. If I can stay up will try CD2.


----------



## carp

raynist said:


> Listen to the new Metallica album yet?
> 
> Did Dirac make 2 ch any better. Listening to CD1 for the 2nd time today. If I can stay up will try CD2.



I swear I responded to you yesterday Ray, oh well... 

Yes I liked 2 channel with Dirac better. It REALLY solidifies the singer dead center. Also, it corrected a lot of issues between 100 and 300 hz. Sounded great with the 215's for sure, but they are great on their own. It's the icing on the cake. 

I am liking the new Metallica. As usual on every album since the Black Album, I like the songs they didn't release better than the stuff I heard before the album came out. It doesn't compare to the classic stuff with Cliff Burton - I include Justice as a Cliff inspired album - but I try not to do that. On it's own merit I like it. To me it's as good as Death Magnetic (which I really liked) but better production without the horrible clipping. I'm pretty happy with it.. as long as I don't try to picture how it would sound with their classic thrashy/crunchy guitar sound...


----------



## carp

I got my JBL speakers on Friday. Yesterday was a lot of work, and I mean a LOT. 

I didn't want to lose any distance at all between me and the screen, and I also wanted to be able to have at least a little toe in with the LR mains so... 

I cut into the front wall. I thought I'd have about 4-5 inches gained by doing that, and I ended up with exactly 5 more inches, which - as we all know - is a very big deal. 

I cut out section just big enough to fit the 4722's to minimize how much I had to cut. I knew the front wall had wood paneling behind the drywall, but I did not know that there was another layer of dry wall on the other side of the wood paneling. That's right, someone actually put wood paneling directly over a perfectly good drywall wall. So, I had a nice wood paneling sandwich to cut through, not to mention the 2x4's all to gain 5 inches. It makes all the difference though. When I had to move the screen up 8 inches to fit the the 215's behind the screen my toes blocked the bottom of the screen when I was fully reclined. My screen isn't very high off the ground since it's so big, and moving it closer changes all the angle. Also, I can't move my front row back a single inch because of a pole. Also, in the second row a significant amount is blocked from view by the front row compared to having the screen further away. Yeah, I know, talk about first world problems... 






So, a lot of work later and I had the 4722's setup in time for watching shows last night with my wife. 





I got a sample of that black AT material from Seymour. Unfortunately it is not nearly as dark as the velvet so I'm not sure what I'm going to do since it won't be a match. Trying to decide between one big piece that goes all the way from sub stack to sub stack that isn't as dark, or smaller pieces that just cover the speaker and do the rest in velvet. Or, maybe cover the open spaces in velvet and put nothing in front of the speaker. 

First impressions are exactly what I expected. I had these speakers for 3 weeks and I guess my tastes haven't changed since last year. They are awesome for movies and pretty darn good for music. I did prefer them out in front of the screen, but I knew I would - but I didn't buy these for music. This is for movies and I already knew I greatly preferred the speakers behind the screen for movies. So, just like I thought I will eventually get something for 2 channel music. JTR 210's unless I somehow hear something better. 


Today, I switched back and forth between testing out surround placement of the scs8's and watching football. I tried all kinds of locations. Lately I have been preferring 5.1 to 7.1. 


Speaker placement that I preferred 5.1 was:

Side surrounds only, no rears and placement at 125 degrees. 



Speaker placement of 7.1 that I don't like as much:

Side surrounds at 90 degrees, rears at 135 degrees. 


So, today I tried everything. I ended up liking having the side surrounds in front of me, say 75-80 degrees and rears at 135 degrees. I preferred this to 5.1 with just sides at 125. Not by a ton, but enough to definitely want 7.1 over 5.1 

However... a couple hours ago I thought what the hell. I have 6 scs8's, why not just try 2 sets of side surrounds. I started looking up info in avs about 2 sets of side surrounds. Looks like it works well for some people. I know first hand it works great for dlbeck, but he has a fancy setup in which 25 percent (or maybe it's 50 percent) of the content from the rears plays in the back side surround speakers. The effect is awesome in his room, and a part of why you feel like there are no speakers in his room, the sound seems to come from everywhere. 

Anyway, the consensus on the guys that had tried it was that you need to have a slightly different delay to avoid comb filtering. Toole says 10 ms works well. Hmmm that seems like way too much to me but I'm not expert. 

So, I tried it out. I made sure to set the 2 sets of side surrounds 3 db's low so that when they play together they have the same db level as the rest of the speakers. Also, I ran mcacc with one set of side surrounds muted, and then again with the other set, to get the distances. 

When I played the Atmos demo disk I played around with the distance of the further rear set of side surrounds, but nothing sounded as good as just leaving it where it was. The results to my ears were great. Hands down the best surround has sounded in my room. A pet peeve of my room is that I feel like I can often pinpoint the speaker location, I don't get the speakers disappear effect that much. That's why I went away from the 90 degrees thing, to me the pin point thing is really bad with the side surrounds right at 90 even with the rear surrounds playing. 

So, I could be crazy, I'm going to give it some time and see what I think. Right now I like it so much I'm thinking about mounting all 6 where they are and getting 4 more scs8's for the ceiling. 

Also I solidified the fact that I don't like the rear surrounds on the back wall. My main LP seat is so far from the back wall that the angle is better with the rears on the side wall. If they are on the back wall I can't hear them nearly as well because they are around 160 degrees at that point.


----------



## Archaea

dude...you are the king of audio experimentation.

the king.

Glad you are enjoying yourself! I'm looking forward to checking it out after you've done the legwork to determine what you like!


----------



## carp

Think of what I could accomplish if I had any idea what I was doing!


----------



## Frohlich

Are you running these with the stock CDs or have the new CDs already been installed? 

I love the 4722 + SCS 8 combo...but I am 99% movies/HT/Video games. I am not much into 2 channel. Either way it sounds like you are on your way to getting your new toys installed and optimized. Look forward to reading your long term impressions.


----------



## COACH2369

I always love seeing new JBL stuff being installed in home theaters. 

10 of those SCS8's will be AWESOME! 

Room looks great.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> So, a lot of work later and I had the 4722's setup in time for watching shows last night with my wife.
> 
> First impressions are exactly what I expected. I had these speakers for 3 weeks and I guess my tastes haven't changed since last year. They are awesome for movies and pretty darn good for music. I did prefer them out in front of the screen, but I knew I would - but I didn't buy these for music. This is for movies and I already knew I greatly preferred the speakers behind the screen for movies. So, just like I thought I will eventually get something for 2 channel music. JTR 210's unless I somehow hear something better.


You might see that gap close almost completely once you get those 2453H-SL's in there bro  They take them to the next level. No doubt.


----------



## desertdome

That is a nice touch to leave out the Kansas Jayhawks coaster since Kansas beat Texas in football for the first time since 1938! 

Is your center speaker too much to the left because there is a stud in the way or are you trying to center it with your main seating position? 

Have you tried having the surrounds higher, but angled down? This will provide more even volume across all the seating locations. I would especially experiment with the rears all the way to the ceiling, separated by the width of the rear row, and angled down. You need to get more of the on and off axis sound from these speakers to the front row unimpeded by seats or people. You can play some white noise through a rear surround speaker, have someone hold the surround, and have them move the speaker around and hold it at different angles. You will then get a feel for how it interacts with the room and how the sound changes with location/angle.

Another thing you can do is route the left to the right speaker and the right speaker to the right surround. Position the right surround so that the stereo image between the right speaker and right surround is where you want at the listening position. Then reroute and continue working your way around the room. By working with the stereo imaging, you can get a feel for how the immersion will work with real content. I do the routing with my laptop and JRiver Media Center using HDMI output. You can also just change which speakers are connected to L/R, but it takes a lot longer. 

Using white noise to aim and adjust speakers


----------



## carp

Frohlich said:


> Are you running these with the stock CDs or have the new CDs already been installed?
> 
> I love the 4722 + SCS 8 combo...but I am 99% movies/HT/Video games. I am not much into 2 channel. Either way it sounds like you are on your way to getting your new toys installed and optimized. Look forward to reading your long term impressions.



I have the stock CD's. The better CD's won't ship for a few weeks, so I'm going to hold off on loading up the front wall with insulation until I get them. I can't do 2 channel right now, but PL2x music is working for me and I know it will be 

The coverage with the scs8's is awesome, ideal surround speaker for multiple rows. I haven't tried them up front but I plan to, just curious how they would sound.


----------



## JDontee

Ya know what would be fun? Blind audio test: SCS 8 vs volt 10 with no eq. (I had to say it...)


----------



## dwaleke

JDontee said:


> Ya know what would be fun? Blind audio test: SCS 8 vs volt 10 with no eq. (I had to say it...)


I'd like to hear comparisons between the two. Blind or otherwise.


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> That is a nice touch to leave out the Kansas Jayhawks coaster since Kansas beat Texas in football for the first time since 1938!
> 
> Is your center speaker too much to the left because there is a stud in the way or are you trying to center it with your main seating position?
> 
> Have you tried having the surrounds higher, but angled down? This will provide more even volume across all the seating locations. I would especially experiment with the rears all the way to the ceiling, separated by the width of the rear row, and angled down. You need to get more of the on and off axis sound from these speakers to the front row unimpeded by seats or people. You can play some white noise through a rear surround speaker, have someone hold the surround, and have them move the speaker around and hold it at different angles. You will then get a feel for how it interacts with the room and how the sound changes with location/angle.
> 
> Another thing you can do is route the left to the right speaker and the right speaker to the right surround. Position the right surround so that the stereo image between the right speaker and right surround is where you want at the listening position. Then reroute and continue working your way around the room. By working with the stereo imaging, you can get a feel for how the immersion will work with real content. I do the routing with my laptop and JRiver Media Center using HDMI output. You can also just change which speakers are connected to L/R, but it takes a lot longer.
> 
> Using white noise to aim and adjust speakers



Ha - yeah, they are my wife's coasters, and I don't mind since our schools have no rivalry.

I knew someone would notice!! Actually the center channel speaker is dead center, it's the left main that's a little closer in than the right main speaker. The reason is that I have 4 - count 'em 4 - outlets behind the screen on that wall for some reason. Before I started hacking into the wall I shut off the breaker that goes to those outlets. Unfortunately, 1 of the 4 was on a different breaker. The same breaker that goes to all the basement lights and all the lights and outlets in the kitchen upstairs.

So, when I cut into the wall it worked out that only 2 lines had to be cut, but one of them was on the far left outlet so no cutting that one or I'd kill all the power to the basement lights and kitchen, and perhaps electrocute myself?   If you guys could have seen me.... I had to cut through multiple 2x4's that had the "hot" power cord through a drilled hole running through the 2x4's. I managed to fit the sawzall blade in the holes and cut away from the power cord but it was still dicey and I probably should have died. 

Anyway, when I got over to where the live receptacle was I decided to leave it be and stop cutting before I got to it and have the left speaker a couple of inches closer to the center channel than the right speaker is. I can easily adjust delays (obviously Dirac does this too) to have the stereo image dead on, so I'm fine with it. 

I have had the surrounds higher, I did that for years. That's how they were at the last KC tour. I moved them down because I want the separation for when I go to Atmos, and by far my priority is how it sounds at my seat anyway. However, I'm curious with these new speakers (120 degree dispersion) and will try what you suggest for sure. 
  
*Another thing you can do is route the left to the right speaker and the right speaker to the right surround. Position the right surround so that the stereo image between the right speaker and right surround is where you want at the listening position. Then reroute and continue working your way around the room. By working with the stereo imaging, you can get a feel for how the immersion will work with real content. I do the routing with my laptop and JRiver Media Center using HDMI output. You can also just change which speakers are connected to L/R, but it takes a lot longer. *

^ That sounds really interesting. Let me see if I understand. I wire the right speaker and right side surround speaker as actually coming out of the L and R speakers on my amp. I play some music and tweak the distance until the singer is right in the middle of the two speakers (or use movie scenes instead of music) while sitting in my MLP. Next I wire up the right side surround with the right rear surround as the left and right speakers and do the same thing, and repeat for all the speakers? Are you saying this works better to tweak the distance manually then what Dirac, or Audyssey will come up with?


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> Ya know what would be fun? Blind audio test: SCS 8 vs volt 10 with no eq. (I had to say it...)





dwaleke said:


> I'd like to hear comparisons between the two. Blind or otherwise.


I plan on comparing this week, blind would be better and I may do that sometime. What would be really cool is if I liked them enough to put some 4722n's in the classifieds but I don't think that's going to happen.


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> I managed to fit the sawzall blade in the holes and cut away from the power cord but it was still dicey and I probably should have died.


At least you were wearing ear plugs, right? 



> I can easily adjust delays (obviously Dirac does this too) to have the stereo image dead on, so I'm fine with it.


You can have the stereo image dead on, but not the soundstage due to the reflection difference. With the delays you will make that speaker closer, but the reflection will be further. What we hear is part direct sound and part reflection. However, it may not make any audible difference. 



> ^ That sounds really interesting. Let me see if I understand. I wire the right speaker and right side surround speaker as actually coming out of the L and R speakers on my amp. I play some music and tweak the distance until the singer is right in the middle of the two speakers (or use movie scenes instead of music) while sitting in my MLP. Next I wire up the right side surround with the right rear surround as the left and right speakers and do the same thing, and repeat for all the speakers?


Yes, that is what I'm suggesting. Using two channel music works great if you know the singer is centered. If using dual side surrounds, then both side surrounds need to be playing the right channel for testing purposes. 



> Are you saying this works better to tweak the distance manually then what Dirac, or Audyssey will come up with?


I'm saying to try this to see if you like different positions of the surrounds. The delay/distance should always be the exact distance from the center of the main row or from the main seat. Just like you have a phantom center between the two main speakers, you also have a phantom "center" between each channel. By evenly spacing these phantom centers around the room, you will have better immersion as a sound pans around the room. With surrounds you have both panning sounds and direct sounds. You may find that you prefer to optimize for direct sound vs panning sound since the placement for both may not be the same. This is just another method of making comparisons and positioning for best panning.


----------



## dwaleke

carp said:


> What would be really cool is if I liked them enough to put some 4722n's in the classifieds but I don't think that's going to happen.


Don't get me wrong as I like my Volt 10s, but there is a mile wide gap between them and my JTR 215s. If the 4722 can be replaced by the Volt 10 I would be very underwhelmed by the 4722.

I look forward to reading your thoughts. A complete audio overhaul is fun to do and fun to read about.


----------



## carp

dwaleke said:


> Don't get me wrong as I like my Volt 10s, but there is a mile wide gap between them and my JTR 215s. If the 4472 can be replaced by the Volt 10 I would be very underwhelmed by the 4722.
> 
> I look forward to reading your thoughts. A complete audio overall is fun to do and fun to read about.



I wasn't saying that could happen... just wishful thinking so I could sell the 4722's and have more money... to blow on this hobby!! It's safe to say you would like the 4722n's. Some prefer the JTR's, other the 4722's, but all I have read about or had in my room to hear them in person have at least liked them, and many love them. IMO the JTR's are a step up for music and = for movies.


----------



## NWCgrad

Can't wait to read your impressions when the 2453H-SL's arrive. I also thought the KU coaster was a nice touch after Saturday's win.


----------



## NWCgrad

carp said:


> I am liking the new Metallica. As usual on every album since the Black Album, I like the songs they didn't release better than the stuff I heard before the album came out. It doesn't compare to the classic stuff with Cliff Burton - I include Justice as a Cliff inspired album - but I try not to do that. On it's own merit I like it. To me it's as good as Death Magnetic (which I really liked) but better production without the horrible clipping. I'm pretty happy with it.. as long as I don't try to picture how it would sound with their classic thrashy/crunchy guitar sound...


Listened to all 3 discs on the way to/from work today. The new material seems pretty good, and it isn't compressed to hell like Death Magnetic. To me disc 3 was worth the price of the whole set, I have wanted the Dio, Deep Purple and Iron Maiden cover tracks and now I have them all on one disc. Awesome!!!!


----------



## beastaudio

i didnt know the new metallica had all those goodies. might have to scoop that sooner than i thought.


----------



## Gooddoc

Looks like a lot of fun man. What's the cloth hanging from the ceiling in front of your PJ? Does it reduce ceiling reflections or is it for some other reason?


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> Listened to all 3 discs on the way to/from work today. The new material seems pretty good, and it isn't compressed to hell like Death Magnetic. To me disc 3 was worth the price of the whole set, I have wanted the Dio, Deep Purple and Iron Maiden cover tracks and now I have them all on one disc. Awesome!!!!



The new album is really growing on me, some much like Death Magnetic did. However, the production is much better than DM and none of the clipping so I bet over time I'll like it better. Favorites right now are Now That Were Dead, Dream No More, and wow that last section of Halo on Fire is fantastic. Yeah, I love the covers too and the live stuff from Kill and Lightning is a nice touch. I was playing the album while putting up all my surround speakers today and really digging it. I've head it the perfect amount of times, it's really clicking but not getting old. 




beastaudio said:


> i didnt know the new metallica had all those goodies. might have to scoop that sooner than i thought.


I pay 9.99 a month for Google Play, and I can get the album anywhere (including phone) for free. Is that the case for people that don't pay the monthly payment to google? If so, I wonder why anyone would buy the album. It feels kind of wrong, but hey, I've shelled out hundreds of dollars for Metallica music and videos over the years so I don't feel too bad. 



Gooddoc said:


> Looks like a lot of fun man. What's the cloth hanging from the ceiling in front of your PJ? Does it reduce ceiling reflections or is it for some other reason?


That is a piece of velvet that blocks the black bar when I zoom for 2:35:1 movies. In dark scenes I could see the light from the upper black bar on the beam and the ceiling acoustic panels.


----------



## NWCgrad

I bought the 3 disc set from Amazon for $9.99. I like having a physical disc.


----------



## Gorilla83

New setup is looking good! Really looking forward to checking out your room (finally) in February.


----------



## carp

Thanks, Andrew! Yeah, should be a lot of fun - the good thing is it gives me plenty of time to dial in all these new JBL's!


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> I bought the 3 disc set from Amazon for $9.99. I like having a physical disc.


I was the same way for so long, but that's changed in the past year or so.


----------



## carp

I did end up putting up 2 sets of side surrounds. After falling in love with it a few days ago I went back to a single pair of side surrounds (still had speakers sitting on boxes, nothing mounted at that point, still experimenting) trading off with having the placement at 90, 110, and 75 ish degrees. Nothing sounded right. With them at 90 the surround effects were too pinpoint. I hate that the most, the speakers at 90 call so much attention to them IMO. At 75 I liked it much better, but on some scenes the surround field felt front of the room dominant. At 110 ish the sound field was too rear of the room dominant. All of this was with the rear surrounds at 135 degrees. 

So, Friday morning I tried 2 sets of side surrounds again. There it is!! I felt more immersed. Surround field wasn't too much in front of me, or too much behind me, it was just all around me. 

So, I said screw it, I'm done with experimenting the speakers are going up today (this was Friday). It took a long time, and it is always fun to drill new holes yet again for speaker placement but it's so worth it.


----------



## Archaea

What angles did you decide on for your two side surrounds?


----------



## lukeamdman

Looking great man!

I've wanted to hear the 4722 for a while so I'm really looking forward to February.


----------



## desertdome

Carp, I love all the experimenting you do! Great idea with the velvet to mask the light spill. 



lukeamdman said:


> Looking great man!
> 
> I've wanted to hear the 4722 for a while so I'm really looking forward to February.


Just to clarify for others, Carp actually ordered the 4722N. There are several part numbers and things can get confusing.

4722 is the part number for the active speaker and includes no crossover
4722N is the part number for the passive speaker and includes the crossover

With either speaker, the high frequency and low frequency are actually different SKU's and can be ordered separately.
4722-HF is the horn and compression driver
4722N-HF is the horn, compression driver, and crossover network
4729 is the low frequency cabinet and drivers

One can also order just the waveguide and either the 2432 or the 2435H-SL compression driver so there are lots of options for the DIY guy.


----------



## beastaudio

desertdome said:


> Carp, I love all the experimenting you do! Great idea with the velvet to mask the light spill.
> 
> 
> Just to clarify for others, Carp actually ordered the 4722N. There are several part numbers and things can get confusing.
> 
> 4722 is the part number for the active speaker and includes no crossover
> 4722N is the part number for the passive speaker and includes the crossover
> 
> With either speaker, the high frequency and low frequency are actually different SKU's and can be ordered separately.
> 4722-HF is the horn and compression driver
> 4722N-HF is the horn, compression driver, and crossover network
> 4729 is the low frequency cabinet and drivers
> 
> One can also order just the waveguide and either the 2432 or the 2435H-SL compression driver so there are lots of options for the DIY guy.


Yep, just as I did. Pro sound parts has the individual horns and networks for order at a good price. If anyone is considering DIY'ing, I have the part numbers for those in my classified linked below


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> What angles did you decide on for your two side surrounds?


I'll post some pictures. I'd say they are at 70 degrees and 110 degrees. 



lukeamdman said:


> Looking great man!
> 
> I've wanted to hear the 4722 for a while so I'm really looking forward to February.


Thanks Luke, I'm looking forward to the GTG too. As I'm sure you know, the bass will greatly disappoint compared to what you are used to!! 



desertdome said:


> Carp, I love all the experimenting you do! Great idea with the velvet to mask the light spill.
> 
> 
> Just to clarify for others, Carp actually ordered the 4722N. There are several part numbers and things can get confusing.
> 
> 4722 is the part number for the active speaker and includes no crossover
> 4722N is the part number for the passive speaker and includes the crossover
> 
> With either speaker, the high frequency and low frequency are actually different SKU's and can be ordered separately.
> 4722-HF is the horn and compression driver
> 4722N-HF is the horn, compression driver, and crossover network
> 4729 is the low frequency cabinet and drivers
> 
> One can also order just the waveguide and either the 2432 or the 2435H-SL compression driver so there are lots of options for the DIY guy.


Speaking of experimenting... I got a sample of the black AT material from Seymore but it isn't nearly as dark as the velvet so it doesn't match and doesn't soak up the light as well. So I got to wondering if having the velvet over the bottom driver would really matter that much. Brandon said take some measurements so I tried it out. Having the velvet over the driver (took measurement from the MLP) reduced the db's from 450 to 950 hz by about 1.5 to 2 db's from the looks of it. The rest of the frequencies were identical. Makes me wonder if using Dirac or Audyssey could just clean that up and it would be fine. One way to find out....

We watched the new Star Trek with some friends Saturday and the black bar spillage on very dark scenes under the screen on the speakers was distracting to me since I'm used to velvet all around. Yesterday I tried the same scenes with the sample from Seymore under the screen. Not much help, it was much closer to how the light reflected off the speakers than it was to the velvet.


----------



## Frohlich

carp said:


> I'll post some pictures. I'd say they are at 70 degrees and 110 degrees.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Luke, I'm looking forward to the GTG too. As I'm sure you know, the bass will greatly disappoint compared to what you are used to!!
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of experimenting... I got a sample of the black AT material from Seymore but it isn't nearly as dark as the velvet so it doesn't match and doesn't soak up the light as well. So I got to wondering if having the velvet over the bottom driver would really matter that much. Brandon said take some measurements so I tried it out. Having the velvet over the driver (took measurement from the MLP) reduced the db's from 450 to 950 hz by about 1.5 to 2 db's from the looks of it. The rest of the frequencies were identical. Makes me wonder if using Dirac or Audyssey could just clean that up and it would be fine. One way to find out....
> 
> We watched the new Star Trek with some friends Saturday and the black bar spillage on very dark scenes under the screen on the speakers was distracting to me since I'm used to velvet all around. Yesterday I tried the same scenes with the sample from Seymore under the screen. Not much help, it was much closer to how the light reflected off the speakers than it was to the velvet.


Not sure if this helps but I had a space below my screen and above the carpet that looked at lot like the picture above. I ordered custom sized speaker grills (link below) that I slide behind my screen and let it rest on the ground. It cleans up the look, does a good job keeping things dark with no reflections off the speaker, doesn't alter the sound or DBs and is pretty reasonably priced. Just an FYI in case it helps. I would be happy to take pictures if it helps.

http://www.speakerworks.com


----------



## carp

It took a long time to run the speaker wire - yet again - through the wall and get the speakers mounted. Great, 2 more holes to patch in the walls!! I put them all at the same height. High enough to not be blocked by any chairs, but low enough to get (hopefully) separation for Atmos.

I tried the rear surrounds on the back wall (on boxes) again just to be sure, but at the main LP the rear soundfield is significantly better with them on the side walls. The middle seat on the couch is great too, but I really don't care. I'm optimizing everything for the MLP within reason. 




Here is a shot from the MLP directly to the right an left walls. Side surrounds are 6 feet apart. I've listened to quite a bit of content since putting them up and am very happy with the results. 






I love the brackets. You can tighten them just enough so that they are stable but at the same time you can move them to aim them however you want by just moving the speaker. No loosening of bolts or anything or having to re-tighten. 



I should be getting 4 more SCS8's sometime next week. I'll put the front two about halfway between my side surrounds and L/R mains, and the rear ceiling speakers half way between the 2nd set of side surrounds and the rear surrounds. I think this puts me close to 45 degrees each way. I need protractors with frickin laser beams on them. 

I love the SCS8's. You can really tell they have a wider dispersion.


----------



## carp

Frohlich said:


> Not sure if this helps but I had a space below my screen and above the carpet that looked at lot like the picture above. I ordered custom sized speaker grills (link below) that I slide behind my screen and let it rest on the ground. It cleans up the look, does a good job keeping things dark with no reflections off the speaker, doesn't alter the sound or DBs and is pretty reasonably priced. Just an FYI in case it helps. I would be happy to take pictures if it helps.
> 
> http://www.speakerworks.com


Thanks I'll check it out! 

Do you have a 16:9 screen? For me it wouldn't be an issue if I didn't have a 2:35:1 screen. The black bars show light on very dark scenes unless I have velvet. 

The sample I have looks very dark, that pic I took was with the flash up close to expose how it really isn't as dark as you think when it's next to velvet.


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> It took a long time to run the speaker wire - yet again - through the wall and get the speakers mounted. Great, 2 more holes to patch in the walls!! I put them all at the same height. High enough to not be blocked by any chairs, but low enough to get (hopefully) separation for Atmos.
> 
> I tried the rear surrounds on the back wall (on boxes) again just to be sure, but at the main LP the rear soundfield is significantly better with them on the side walls. The middle seat on the couch is great too, but I really don't care. I'm optimizing everything for the MLP within reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a shot from the MLP directly to the right an left walls. Side surrounds are 6 feet apart. I've listened to quite a bit of content since putting them up and am very happy with the results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love the brackets. You can tighten them just enough so that they are stable but at the same time you can move them to aim them however you want by just moving the speaker. No loosening of bolts or anything or having to re-tighten.
> 
> 
> 
> I should be getting 4 more SCS8's sometime next week. I'll put the front two about halfway between my side surrounds and L/R mains, and the rear ceiling speakers half way between the 2nd set of side surrounds and the rear surrounds. I think this puts me close to 45 degrees each way. I need protractors with frickin laser beams on them.
> 
> I love the SCS8's. You can really tell they have a wider dispersion.


The install turned out VERY nice. Glad you are loving the SCS8's. Having a total of 10 in your room should be quite the experience!


----------



## carp

COACH2369 said:


> The install turned out VERY nice. Glad you are loving the SCS8's. Having a total of 10 in your room should be quite the experience!


Thanks Coach! It turned out pretty good for the most part... except the baseboard on the right side wall has really taken a beating with all the changes in surround position over the years and having to take it off and on so much. That wall sucks to run wire through, the left wall is easy with the laundry room being right next door where all the components are.


----------



## carp

I don't think I'm going to need music speakers. 2 channel with the 4722's behind the screen is not as good as the 215's but I knew that would be the case.

However, I just finally bought a 7.1.4 AVR (Denon 4300) and using dolby surround for music with the rear 4 speakers off (rear surrounds and side surrounds behind my head) and the front side surrounds on and angled back at around 45 degrees (on axis pointing at the back corners of the room) is really, really, good for music. It combines a great soundstage, rock solid singer position (obviously since the center channel is on for dolby surround) and 3D wrap around my head effect from the side surrounds. 

I assume I'm getting nice reflections off the back wall from them. Also, I have the side surrounds 3 db's low since they are set that way because I have 2 pairs of side surrounds for movies and having them 3 db's low seems to be perfect for upmixed music.


----------



## Frohlich

carp said:


> Thanks I'll check it out!
> 
> Do you have a 16:9 screen? For me it wouldn't be an issue if I didn't have a 2:35:1 screen. The black bars show light on very dark scenes unless I have velvet.
> 
> The sample I have looks very dark, that pic I took was with the flash up close to expose how it really isn't as dark as you think when it's next to velvet.


I might have misunderstood your intentions. Mine is strictly for cosmetics to fill the space below my screen down to the floor. I am not using it for masking the screen or anything like that. I have a 16:9 AT screen.



carp said:


> I don't think I'm going to need music speakers. 2 channel with the 4722's behind the screen is not as good as the 215's but I knew that would be the case.
> 
> However, I just finally bought a 7.1.4 AVR (Denon 4300) and using dolby surround for music with the rear 4 speakers off (rear surrounds and side surrounds behind my head) and the front side surrounds on and angled back at around 45 degrees (on axis pointing at the back corners of the room) is really, really, good for music. It combines a great soundstage, rock solid singer position (obviously since the center channel is on for dolby surround) and 3D wrap around my head effect from the side surrounds.
> 
> I assume I'm getting nice reflections off the back wall from them. Also, I have the side surrounds 3 db's low since they are set that way because I have 2 pairs of side surrounds for movies and having them 3 db's low seems to be perfect for upmixed music.


Wait until you hear the new CD when they arrive. They may or may not do it for you for 2 channel compared to the JTRs but then at least you can compare apples to apples and hearing the 4722s at their best. I love the "bubble of sound" the SCS 8 create with all channels engaged whether it be for multi channel music or for movies. I have a bar behind my theater seats and when I sit at the bar stools, which is behind all the speakers, it sounds so off compared to sitting in the HT seats with the full effect of having all the speakers around you for Atmos. I think you will love it when your overhead speakers arrive and you get to hear it with all channels engaged


----------



## carp

Frohlich said:


> I might have misunderstood your intentions. Mine is strictly for cosmetics to fill the space below my screen down to the floor. I am not using it for masking the screen or anything like that. I have a 16:9 AT screen.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait until you hear the new CD when they arrive. They may or may not do it for you for 2 channel compared to the JTRs but then at least you can compare apples to apples and hearing the 4722s at their best. I love the "bubble of sound" the SCS 8 create with all channels engaged whether it be for multi channel music or for movies. I have a bar behind my theater seats and when I sit at the bar stools, which is behind all the speakers, it sounds so off compared to sitting in the HT seats with the full effect of having all the speakers around you for Atmos. I think you will love it when your overhead speakers arrive and you get to hear it with all channels engaged



I'm not using it to mask, it goes below the frame of the screen. However, when zooming for 2:35:1 movies the "black" bars are off the screen. Usually not a big deal but in very dark scenes they show up if you don't absorb that light with velvet - at least it does with my projector which doesn't have the best blacks, but they aren't terrible either. 

Oh man, I can't decide what I'm looking foward more to - the CD's or the ceiling speakers!


----------



## beastaudio

Frohlich said:


> Wait until you hear the new CD when they arrive.


This ^^^^^ times 11ty billion. If you are close enough to not thinking you'll need music speakers, the 2453H-SL's will seal the deal for you. 









I guarantee it.


----------



## JDontee

Maybe I missed this, but how are you wiring your addition side surrounds? Front wides?


----------



## raynist

carp said:


> I should be getting 4 more SCS8's sometime next week. I'll put the front two about halfway between my side surrounds and L/R mains, and the rear ceiling speakers half way between the 2nd set of side surrounds and the rear surrounds. I think this puts me close to 45 degrees each way. I need protractors with frickin laser beams on them.


A laser level might work for this.

I have this one. 

Strait-Line 6041101CD LL120 3/16-Inch at 20-Feet Manual Level Interior Line Laser https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002VM7N0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_jeEpyb0SJW10Y


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> I need protractors with frickin laser beams on them.


Both Jedimastergrant and Stoked21 have protractors with a laser. Perhaps you could borrow one. 










I use the 16" laser level from Harbor Freight.


----------



## Frohlich

desertdome said:


> Both Jedimastergrant and Stoked21 have protractors with a laser. Perhaps you could borrow one.


Maybe Dr. Evil can help????


----------



## COACH2369

:laugh:


----------



## carp

Ha, yep that's what I was thinking when I typed that. 

I know Derek has one, I've seen it, it's pretty slick and I know he'd let me borrow it. I think I just want to have one though so I'll probably order one thanks.


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> Maybe I missed this, but how are you wiring your addition side surrounds? Front wides?


Running off the preouts to an old Yamaha AVR that has main ins, so I'm using the L/R main channels from the Yamaha. There is probably a good chance I could get the distance dialed in better to avoid comb filtering, but I don't notice any as is, it sounds great to me.


----------



## JDontee

What's your plan for the atmos amp? If that yamaha has a multichannel input, I suppose you could try to use it to power the atmos and additional surrounds. Just an idea.


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> Ha, yep that's what I was thinking when I typed that.
> 
> I know Derek has one, I've seen it, it's pretty slick and I know he'd let me borrow it. I think I just want to have one though so I'll probably order one thanks.


Let me know if you find one. They were on Amazon or Ebay for a while, but now I can't find any.


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> What's your plan for the atmos amp? If that yamaha has a multichannel input, I suppose you could try to use it to power the atmos and additional surrounds. Just an idea.


I still have 3 channels left I can use on the Yamaha, so I'll be one channel short. I do have an inuke that powers a single Crowson (which hasn't been hooked up since I got the new carpet) so I could use that for the last channel.


----------



## jedimastergrant

Frohlich said:


> Maybe Dr. Evil can help????


Ha ha. Dr. Evil here. Sheldon, I will bring my "laser" over tonight along with your Roger Waters disk. Thanks for letting me borrow it. I decided it was good enough to buy it myself.


----------



## carp

jedimastergrant said:


> Ha ha. Dr. Evil here. Sheldon, I will bring my "laser" over tonight along with your Roger Waters disk. Thanks for letting me borrow it. I decided it was good enough to buy it myself.


Thanks a ton for letting me borrow the laser. Using a protractor on a piece of paper or estimating 45 degrees on my own I would have thought that the heights would be quite a bit further forward and back of my MLP seat. I kind of like that they will be more over head than I was picturing. The only issue will be that I'll have to go a bit more than 45 degrees behind me because at 45 degrees people might hit their heads on them while sitting down or getting up in the second row. I'm betting it won't be a big deal to go 55 degrees though.


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> Thanks a ton for letting me borrow the laser. Using a protractor on a piece of paper or estimating 45 degrees on my own I would have thought that the heights would be quite a bit further forward and back of my MLP seat. I kind of like that they will be more over head than I was picturing. The only issue will be that I'll have to go a bit more than 45 degrees behind me because at 45 degrees people might hit their heads on them while sitting down or getting up in the second row. I'm betting it won't be a big deal to go 55 degrees though.


Have you had a chance to read through the Dolby Atmos Home Theater Installation Guidelines yet?

One problem with the recommendations is that they assume a home theater has one row of seating.  If you want to optimize for both rows, the rear overheads would need to be moved back a little more IMO.

Here are recommended overhead locations:


----------



## carp

Let me make sure I understand how I should aim the ceiling speakers. I'm thinking I should aim the CD on the front heights at the furthest back row seat on the opposite side of the room. The back row heights should be aimed at the furthest front row seat at the opposite side of the room. 

I would be doing this not because I care about optimizing more than just my MLP, but because I don't want hot spotting from any single ceiling speaker when I slightly move my head around. 

Kind of like making a wider sweet spot for 2 channel stereo by aiming the front left speaker at the furthest right seat and vice versa for the front right speaker. 

So if I move my head closer the right ceiling speakers I would be less on axis with the right speakers but more on axis with the left speaker so the volume of each ceiling speaker stays pretty close at the MLP seat. 

Do I have it right? 

I can't go very wide with my ceiling speakers because of a beam on the left side so I think aiming the speakers correctly will be especially important.


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> Have you had a chance to read through the Dolby Atmos Home Theater Installation Guidelines yet?
> 
> One problem with the recommendations is that they assume a home theater has one row of seating.  If you want to optimize for both rows, the rear overheads would need to be moved back a little more IMO.
> 
> Here are recommended overhead locations:



Thanks Michael. I didn't see this until after I posted that last post. 

I decided long ago that I only care about the MLP. I have movie nights but unless it's AVS people no one cares, and even AVS people don't care that much. 

However, I did realize that a nice side effect of moving the rear heights back a bit is that it's better for the couch.


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> I decided long ago that I only care about *CARP*.


Fixed that for you. 

Your name tag for the Crawl can just say MLP!


----------



## jedimastergrant

Carp, thanks for the demo. 

I came over to listen to the JBL SCS 8 as a replacement for my Ported Volt 6 height layer. I did like them and they have excellent coverage IF you can fit them in. Pretty large speaker. 

I also enjoyed the 4722. It is a very similar sound compared to my JTR 212. The differences I heard are probably more attributable to room placement and treatment differences than the speakers themselves. 

After some more measuring and pondering I think I will go ahead with the speaker switch for a more capable and wider coverage immersive audio speaker.


----------



## raynist

jedimastergrant said:


> Carp, thanks for the demo.
> 
> I came over to listen to the JBL SCS 8 as a replacement for my Ported Volt 6 height layer. I did like them and they have excellent coverage IF you can fit them in. Pretty large speaker.
> 
> I also enjoyed the 4722. It is a very similar sound compared to my JTR 212. The differences I heard are probably more attributable to room placement and treatment differences than the speakers themselves.
> 
> After some more measuring and pondering I think I will go ahead with the speaker switch for a more capable and wider coverage immersive audio speaker.


Are you going to sell the volt 6's?


----------



## carp

jedimastergrant said:


> Carp, thanks for the demo.
> 
> I came over to listen to the JBL SCS 8 as a replacement for my Ported Volt 6 height layer. I did like them and they have excellent coverage IF you can fit them in. Pretty large speaker.
> 
> I also enjoyed the 4722. It is a very similar sound compared to my JTR 212. The differences I heard are probably more attributable to room placement and treatment differences than the speakers themselves.
> 
> After some more measuring and pondering I think I will go ahead with the speaker switch for a more capable and wider coverage immersive audio speaker.



The 212's do music better IMO and both are great for movies (not everyone would agree with this!), I'm hoping the new CD's will close the gap. 

Grant and I watched some Atmos demo's with no subs since I told my wife we would take it easy. Man... reference doesn't sound all that loud when there aren't any subs! The 4722's have great midbass and lower bass down to 40 hz or so, but it just can't compare with having all the subs on.


----------



## carp

So... I was dead asleep and suddenly I was fully awake. For some reason I was awoken by the realization that I am an idiot. Well... that's nothing new but this is just another reason why. The scs8's will come down too far from the ceiling and will block part of the screen. How did I not think of that before... I couldn't fall back asleep so I said screw it and came down to the basement to check. Sure enough, I'll need 16 inches with the speakers angled down some (15 inches with no angle) and I only have 13.5. 

As far as I can tell my only option (if I want to use these speakers - and I do) is to cut open part of the ceiling and put a cross brace piece of wood between 2 joists and then attach the scs8 bracket to that piece of wood. That gains me 3 inches. 

I could cover the area where I cut into the ceiling around the bracket with velvet to (hopefully? ) hide the hole. 

Not sure if it will work but that's the best I could come up with. It looks like the joists are in the perfect spot for where I want the speakers. Ok back to bed.


----------



## Frohlich

carp said:


> So... I was dead asleep and suddenly I was fully awake. For some reason I was awoken by the realization that I am an idiot. Well... that's nothing new but this is just another reason why. The scs8's will come down too far from the ceiling and will block part of the screen. How did I not think of that before... I couldn't fall back asleep so I said screw it and came down to the basement to check. Sure enough, I'll need 16 inches with the speakers angled down some (15 inches with no angle) and I only have 13.5.
> 
> As far as I can tell my only option (if I want to use these speakers - and I do) is to cut open part of the ceiling and put a cross brace piece of wood between 2 joists and then attach the scs8 bracket to that piece of wood. That gains me 3 inches.
> 
> I could cover the area where I cut into the ceiling around the bracket with velvet to (hopefully? ) hide the hole.
> 
> Not sure if it will work but that's the best I could come up with. It looks like the joists are in the perfect spot for where I want the speakers. Ok back to bed.


I had a similar concern/challenge because my ceilings are only 8 feet in the basement. I ended up using the "height" configuration in my Marantz 8802 where the four Atmos/DTS:X speakers go into the corners. This is a "universal" configuration available in the Marantz that is a compromise between Auro/Atmos/DTS:X. I had thought for a while about the same solution you are considering and cutting into my ceiling and recessing them. 

Would it be worth it to do some cardboard cutouts the same size as the SCS8 and tape them to the ceiling in various locations to get a sense of if it would block the screen or not? Maybe play with location and move them further towards the side walls? Wouldn't the rear Atmos speakers be fine since they should be behind the MLP...so maybe just the front two are challenging? Just some thoughts to play with. 

Sure you will find the right solution


----------



## NWCgrad

carp said:


> So... I was dead asleep and suddenly I was fully awake. For some reason I was awoken by the realization that I am an idiot. Well... that's nothing new but this is just another reason why. The scs8's will come down too far from the ceiling and will block part of the screen. How did I not think of that before... I couldn't fall back asleep so I said screw it and came down to the basement to check. Sure enough, I'll need 16 inches with the speakers angled down some (15 inches with no angle) and I only have 13.5.
> 
> As far as I can tell my only option (if I want to use these speakers - and I do) is to cut open part of the ceiling and put a cross brace piece of wood between 2 joists and then attach the scs8 bracket to that piece of wood. That gains me 3 inches.
> 
> I could cover the area where I cut into the ceiling around the bracket with velvet to (hopefully? ) hide the hole.
> 
> Not sure if it will work but that's the best I could come up with. It looks like the joists are in the perfect spot for where I want the speakers. Ok back to bed.


Another possibility is to pull the driver and XO and put them in a DIY enclosure having the same volume as the JBL speaker. While a different baffle size can make a difference for Armos i doubt it would make a difference. By adding one dimension (H or W) you could reduce the depth to save having to cut into the ceiling. 

If only someone in KC was good at buikding enclosures...........


----------



## carp

Frohlich said:


> I had a similar concern/challenge because my ceilings are only 8 feet in the basement. I ended up using the "height" configuration in my Marantz 8802 where the four Atmos/DTS:X speakers go into the corners. This is a "universal" configuration available in the Marantz that is a compromise between Auro/Atmos/DTS:X. I had thought for a while about the same solution you are considering and cutting into my ceiling and recessing them.
> 
> Would it be worth it to do some cardboard cutouts the same size as the SCS8 and tape them to the ceiling in various locations to get a sense of if it would block the screen or not? Maybe play with location and move them further towards the side walls? Wouldn't the rear Atmos speakers be fine since they should be behind the MLP...so maybe just the front two are challenging? Just some thoughts to play with.
> 
> Sure you will find the right solution


Ha, well I sure have enough cardboard lying around with all these new boxes. I'll try that out. I really think cutting into the ceiling will work great but I'm just worried about covering the damage. I could do what you did and put them right in front of my sub stacks. Do you feel like you get good overhead sound like that? Have you been in other rooms with Atmos to compare?


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> Another possibility is to pull the driver and XO and put them in a DIY enclosure having the same volume as the JBL speaker. While a different baffle size can make a difference for Armos i doubt it would make a difference. By adding one dimension (H or W) you could reduce the depth to save having to cut into the ceiling.
> 
> If only someone in KC was good at buikding enclosures...........


Ahhh but he is busy digging holes in his basement! 

I really love the brackets and how you can rotate them any time very easily to how you want them without loosening a bolt. The more I think about this the more my ceiling is in jeopardy!  

I'm glad my wife says it's my room and I can do what I want. She didn't even make a comment when during the dry wall dust storm when I cut out part of the front wall to make more room for the 4722's.


----------



## jedimastergrant

raynist said:


> jedimastergrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> Carp, thanks for the demo.
> 
> I came over to listen to the JBL SCS 8 as a replacement for my Ported Volt 6 height layer. I did like them and they have excellent coverage IF you can fit them in. Pretty large speaker.
> 
> I also enjoyed the 4722. It is a very similar sound compared to my JTR 212. The differences I heard are probably more attributable to room placement and treatment differences than the speakers themselves.
> 
> After some more measuring and pondering I think I will go ahead with the speaker switch for a more capable and wider coverage immersive audio speaker.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you going to sell the volt 6's?
Click to expand...

I am almost ready to commit to the scs 8. If I do then I will probably sell the volt 6 along with my triad bronze in wall and jvc rs45 hopefully at the KC theater crawl. 

That meet might be a good opportunity for lots of folks to swap gear. Maybe even carp will decide to unload his Dirac????


----------



## jedimastergrant

Frohlich said:


> carp said:
> 
> 
> 
> So... I was dead asleep and suddenly I was fully awake. For some reason I was awoken by the realization that I am an idiot. Well... that's nothing new but this is just another reason why. The scs8's will come down too far from the ceiling and will block part of the screen. How did I not think of that before... I couldn't fall back asleep so I said screw it and came down to the basement to check. Sure enough, I'll need 16 inches with the speakers angled down some (15 inches with no angle) and I only have 13.5.
> 
> As far as I can tell my only option (if I want to use these speakers - and I do) is to cut open part of the ceiling and put a cross brace piece of wood between 2 joists and then attach the scs8 bracket to that piece of wood. That gains me 3 inches.
> 
> I could cover the area where I cut into the ceiling around the bracket with velvet to (hopefully?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) hide the hole.
> 
> Not sure if it will work but that's the best I could come up with. It looks like the joists are in the perfect spot for where I want the speakers. Ok back to bed.
> 
> 
> 
> I had a similar concern/challenge because my ceilings are only 8 feet in the basement. I ended up using the "height" configuration in my Marantz 8802 where the four Atmos/DTS:X speakers go into the corners. This is a "universal" configuration available in the Marantz that is a compromise between Auro/Atmos/DTS:X. I had thought for a while about the same solution you are considering and cutting into my ceiling and recessing them.
> 
> Would it be worth it to do some cardboard cutouts the same size as the SCS8 and tape them to the ceiling in various locations to get a sense of if it would block the screen or not? Maybe play with location and move them further towards the side walls? Wouldn't the rear Atmos speakers be fine since they should be behind the MLP...so maybe just the front two are challenging? Just some thoughts to play with.
> 
> Sure you will find the right solution
Click to expand...

I just want to second this. It is what I was going to suggest. 

I did cardboard cut outs of several speakers bc it is so difficult to fit them in my space. I needed to try out several methods to position them and see if the angles worked out using my angle finder. 

I also have problems with placing my height speakers directly in the path of the light from the projector bc many of the larger designs I need in order to hang with my jtr s8 simply come down too far. 

So I decided that a good compromise would be to do as frohlich suggests and put them closer to the wall. Mine are not up against the wall but closer than I would like. The other consideration here for those of us with low ceilings is when the speakers are placed further into the room they are closer to the mlp and I fear it would cause hot spotting. Maybe in ceiling speakers would alleviate this to some extent by adding about a foot to the distance. Not sure. 

So in your case I remember your beam is on the left side and hangs down so low that it all but prevents you from placing the speaker on the other side of it. If the speaker was below the beam then you would surely cause many a concussion. 

What about just barely inside the beam? Is this out of the light path? It may be a slightly wider placement than you first imagined but I bet it is a better idea than getting them too close to the middle. 

Hmm the problem is your stinking screen is so big it takes up essentially the entire front wall!! Man I don't know. Maybe cutting into the ceiling is your best bet. But I would still go just a bit wider and close to that beam.


----------



## carp

jedimastergrant said:


> I just want to second this. It is what I was going to suggest.
> 
> I did cardboard cut outs of several speakers bc it is so difficult to fit them in my space. I needed to try out several methods to position them and see if the angles worked out using my angle finder.
> 
> I also have problems with placing my height speakers directly in the path of the light from the projector bc many of the larger designs I need in order to hang with my jtr s8 simply come down too far.
> 
> So I decided that a good compromise would be to do as frohlich suggests and put them closer to the wall. Mine are not up against the wall but closer than I would like. The other consideration here for those of us with low ceilings is when the speakers are placed further into the room they are closer to the mlp and I fear it would cause hot spotting. Maybe in ceiling speakers would alleviate this to some extent by adding about a foot to the distance. Not sure.
> 
> So in your case I remember your beam is on the left side and hangs down so low that it all but prevents you from placing the speaker on the other side of it. If the speaker was below the beam then you would surely cause many a concussion.
> 
> What about just barely inside the beam? Is this out of the light path? It may be a slightly wider placement than you first imagined but I bet it is a better idea than getting them too close to the middle.
> 
> Hmm the problem is your stinking screen is so big it takes up essentially the entire front wall!! Man I don't know. Maybe cutting into the ceiling is your best bet. But I would still go just a bit wider and close to that beam.



As close as I can go to the beam has been my plan but last night when I held the ruler up it still blocked part of the screen. It doesn't block 16:9 content, but yeah the screen is so wide for 2:35:1 that it does block it. 

I thought about in ceiling... but then I remembered the difference between in ceilings and JTR S8's at Derek's. Big difference IMO. I don't think I could do in ceilings after hearing the before and after.


----------



## carp

jedimastergrant said:


> I am almost ready to commit to the scs 8. If I do then I will probably sell the volt 6 along with my triad bronze in wall and jvc rs45 hopefully at the KC theater crawl.
> 
> That meet might be a good opportunity for lots of folks to swap gear. Maybe even carp will decide to unload his Dirac????


I might. I love it but I just can't deal with the hiss anymore. For people that have less sensitive speakers you won't hear it (I can't hear it on my 94 db sensitive surrounds) but on my 104 db sensitive mains the hiss drives me nuts even though I only hear it with no content playing.


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## JDontee

Reading the headaches Grant, Jonathan, and now Carp are going through for Atmos makes me really want to wait until I build a new theater (if that ever happens). I do enjoy Atmos, but man, it's quite a challenge to upgrade an existing room. New AVR, maybe a 2 channel amp, 4 more speakers, UHD player because many Atmos content is only available on that, somehow fitting those 4 speakers in my very low ceiling, etc.

I remember watching Cloverfield Lane in 5.1 and remember hearing things above me. When that happened, I really started wondering if it would be worth the headache and cost. I'll let Carp finish up his upgrade and he can tell me if his 9.1 (extra surrounds) is a bigger leap from 7.1, than 7.1.4 or his 9.1.4. For my room, the 9.1 configuration has me intrigued. 

Keep up the good work being my guinea pig. I appreciate it.


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## COACH2369

I can chime in as well in regards to placement of the SCS8's.

My front two Atmos speakers had to go more left and more right than they probably should. This was due a similar situation you are in(lower ceiling and blocking the projector). 

I ended up mounting them as close I could before it got in the way of the projector and then angling them to the listening area. The wide dispersion allowed for the flexibility and IMO, they should terrific. 

Just like a lot of things in my room, it isn't a perfect setup and someone might come in and not have the same experience as I do...but I am happy.


----------



## jedimastergrant

JDontee said:


> Reading the headaches Grant, Jonathan, and now Carp are going through for Atmos makes me really want to wait until I build a new theater (if that ever happens). I do enjoy Atmos, but man, it's quite a challenge to upgrade an existing room. New AVR, maybe a 2 channel amp, 4 more speakers, UHD player because many Atmos content is only available on that, somehow fitting those 4 speakers in my very low ceiling, etc.
> 
> I remember watching Cloverfield Lane in 5.1 and remember hearing things above me. When that happened, I really started wondering if it would be worth the headache and cost. I'll let Carp finish up his upgrade and he can tell me if his 9.1 (extra surrounds) is a bigger leap from 7.1, than 7.1.4 or his 9.1.4. For my room, the 9.1 configuration has me intrigued.
> 
> Keep up the good work being my guinea pig. I appreciate it.


Low ceilings are the worst!

I think we talked before about using reflection in your situation. I wonder how placing speakers on the upper third of the side wall and pointed to the ceiling at the proper angle would work in your space. It's all a set of compromises and that could be the best one. 

Some have chosen speakers crossed higher for this to get the ambience effect. Might not do the panning sounds quite as well or the lower frequencies. 

Another HUGE headache that has not yet been talked about for carp yet is speaker cables. Dare I ask carp? Have you thought about how to run the speaker wire? I went through 2 fish tapes struggling through this ordeal. Just awful.


----------



## jedimastergrant

COACH2369 said:


> I can chime in as well in regards to placement of the SCS8's.
> 
> My front two Atmos speakers had to go more left and more right than they probably should. This was due a similar situation you are in(lower ceiling and blocking the projector).
> 
> I ended up mounting them as close I could before it got in the way of the projector and then angling them to the listening area. The wide dispersion allowed for the flexibility and IMO, they should terrific.
> 
> Just like a lot of things in my room, it isn't a perfect setup and someone might come in and not have the same experience as I do...but I am happy.


Just to reiterate something you pointed out. The 120 degree dispersion of the scs 8 is a big advantage. Especially for those with placement limitations. You may not realize this until you start getting the angle finder out and shoot some beams and your like "well dang. That just won't work. And neither will that. Or that." Etc. etc. 

You gain a great deal of flexibility and so much more becomes possible.


----------



## carp

Grant, that's one thing that will be easy. All my components are in the laundry room next door and it's unfinished and the joists run the right way so just like with the projector I'll just fishline them over. Piece of cake. Luckily HVAC runs through joists that are in between where I want to put the front and back ceiling speakers so I lucked out there. 

You guys talking about low ceilings got me thinking. I'm at 7' 9" and if I want the speakers as high as possible I could mount them really high in between the joists. In doing so I would lose some of the ability to aim them and would be pointing more directly down so I'm not sure which trade off is better. Playing with the laser/protractor will tell me a lot.


----------



## JDontee

Hmmmm, Grant. Now you have my attention. I didn't think about reflecting the sound. I wonder if anyone has done some objective comparisons with REW or an omnimic to compare direct vs reflecting for the frequency range of Atmos that is most commonly used. If there is a significant difference, I wonder if that could be eq'd with a dsp with good results. An angled Volt 10 flat pack might be all that is needed. Carp, test it out for me and post the results...


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## jedimastergrant

That is fortunate about the joists!

One possible issue with the in ceiling idea is that the speaker is 14.5" long. How far down do your joists extend? You could try tilting it. Or remove the bracket to gain a few inches. Or just let the speaker come down into the room a ways. Not the end of the world. 

I don't know what the best way to fasten it would be. If you Are planning to construct backer boxes then this cuts down the space inside the joist to fit the speaker just FYI and it is a tight fit anyhow. But you might be able to attach the speaker without the bracket to the top of the backer box. I dunno. A lot of hassle.


----------



## jedimastergrant

JDontee said:


> Hmmmm, Grant. Now you have my attention. I didn't think about reflecting the sound. I wonder if anyone has done some objective comparisons with REW or an omnimic to compare direct vs reflecting for the frequency range of Atmos that is most commonly used. If there is a significant difference, I wonder if that could be eq'd with a dsp with good results. An angled Volt 10 flat pack might be all that is needed. Carp, test it out for me and post the results...


Carp has the brackets mounted so that they adjust in the horizontal plane. That's too bad bc if it was in the vertical plane this would be so easy to do.


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> Hmmmm, Grant. Now you have my attention. I didn't think about reflecting the sound. I wonder if anyone has done some objective comparisons with REW or an omnimic to compare direct vs reflecting for the frequency range of Atmos that is most commonly used. If there is a significant difference, I wonder if that could be eq'd with a dsp with good results. An angled Volt 10 flat pack might be all that is needed. Carp, test it out for me and post the results...



Coincidentally I was just reading through the room info on one of the guys that posts a lot on the Atmos thread. He used reflection off the ceiling for his front heights and loves it. 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...-ht-common-but-special-room.html#post46680017


----------



## carp

If I aim my front ceiling speakers toward the back of the room (and back ceiling speakers toward the front of the room) so that a lot of reflections come off the of ceiling I wonder if that is a good thing or a bad thing. 

Not really something I can test out because I need to determine how high to attach the cross board to the joists above my ceiling.

I would think it would be bad but not sure...


----------



## jedimastergrant

carp said:


> If I aim my front ceiling speakers toward the back of the room (and back ceiling speakers toward the front of the room) so that a lot of reflections come off the of ceiling I wonder if that is a good thing or a bad thing.
> 
> Not really something I can test out because I need to determine how high to attach the cross board to the joists above my ceiling.
> 
> I would think it would be bad but not sure...


I have wondered the same thing. For my room I don't have much of a choice unless I want to cut into my ceiling. Or buy very low profile speakers such as the JTR Slanted 8 LP. 

-With in ceiling speakers that point straight down you are not getting the direct ceiling reflections. Would this provide better ability to pan sounds around the room by getting more direct sound and less reflected sound?

-On the other hand with the speakers placed in the room and pointed across the room with some ceiling reflection I would think it could add to the ambience effect of immersive audio. It could also prevent the ability to pin point a speaker which can sometimes be annoying. But, maybe the more diffuse sound will prevent sounds from panning cleanly? 

Maybe someone here knows?


----------



## carp

paging @Scott Simonian


----------



## carp

This morning I took one of the scs8's down (which is super easy, hand loosen 2 bolts and done) and took it into the laundry room to see how far up it would fit in between the joists. If I angle it the way I am picturing (aiming it at the back row on the opposite side of the room) then the speaker will hang down about 10 inches from the ceiling at it's lowest point (lowest point will be a corner of the speaker since it's angled and tilted down). 

Plenty of room for the 13 inches of clearance I need. 

The front heights will be around 40 degrees from the MLP and the rears around the same, maybe upper 30's for the rears but both within the 35 degree minimum. Because of the beam on the left side they will be a little more narrow than the main L and R, but if I go on the outside of the beam they will be a little wider and then the beam is in the way, so a little narrow it is. 

This is going to be nerve wracking, cutting into the ceiling. I get one shot at this and if I don't like the placement I have to live with it. I've lucked out many times in this room with things working out just so... I hope this is another one of those times.


----------



## d_c

Woah - look at all this new stuff!!! I totally missed out on this action til Grant mentioned the surrounds. Getting Atmos coverage in our short rooms is tricky, and then there is the freakin beam to deal with. Mine will need to go in the ceiling too, but it's in the rough in stage so no big deal. I'm covering mine with faux empty ceiling panels that will look just like the absorption panels. That way the installation of the Atmos speakers doesn't have to be pretty.


----------



## raynist

d_c said:


> Woah - look at all this new stuff!!! I totally missed out on this action til Grant mentioned the surrounds. Getting Atmos coverage in our short rooms is tricky, and then there is the freakin beam to deal with. Mine will need to go in the ceiling too, but it's in the rough in stage so no big deal. I'm covering mine with faux empty ceiling panels that will look just like the absorption panels. That way the installation of the Atmos speakers doesn't have to be pretty.


My gameroom only has 7ft ceilings. It is a drop ceiling so that helps. Now sure if I will be able to do Atmos ever.


----------



## carp

d_c said:


> Woah - look at all this new stuff!!! I totally missed out on this action til Grant mentioned the surrounds. Getting Atmos coverage in our short rooms is tricky, and then there is the freakin beam to deal with. Mine will need to go in the ceiling too, but it's in the rough in stage so no big deal. I'm covering mine with faux empty ceiling panels that will look just like the absorption panels. That way the installation of the Atmos speakers doesn't have to be pretty.


Something tells me your installation will look just slightly better than mine!


----------



## carp

raynist said:


> My gameroom only has 7ft ceilings. It is a drop ceiling so that helps. Now sure if I will be able to do Atmos ever.



I think you will be fine, especially with the extra height because of the drop ceiling. Jonathan doesn't have the highest ceiling and Atmos sounds fantastic in his room. 

My ceiling doesn't feel as low as it measures. In socks if I reach up with both arms I can just touch both finger tips on the ceiling reaching as high as I can. It only measures 7' 9".


----------



## NWCgrad

carp said:


> I think you will be fine, especially with the extra height because of the drop ceiling. Jonathan doesn't have the highest ceiling and Atmos sounds fantastic in his room.
> 
> My ceiling doesn't feel as low as it measures. In socks if I reach up with both arms I can just touch both finger tips on the ceiling reaching as high as I can. It only measures 7' 9".


Your ceiling is only 3-1/2" shorter than the world record for the high jump..... insane that any human can do that!


----------



## carp

NWCgrad said:


> Your ceiling is only 3-1/2" shorter than the world record for the high jump..... insane that any human can do that!


Ha, oh yes I know, I always relate everything height wise to high jump, and it is also the extent of my knowledge of the metric system.

WR = 2.45, my ceiling = 2.36


----------



## sigma722

Your screen is 158" *wide* right? 

Now that you have the 5040 in place, what is the throw distance you have to do to fill that wide?


----------



## carp

sigma722 said:


> Your screen is 158" *wide* right?
> 
> Now that you have the 5040 in place, what is the throw distance you have to do to fill that wide?


No, 158" diagonal. It's only 147" wide. Throw distance is 18' 9".


----------



## carp

Woah, that's not right I forgot to subtract for the distance the front wall is from the screen (16 inches). So, the throw distance is 17' 5".


----------



## sigma722

Sweet! I was just trying to gauge how accurate the manual was for my planning, haha. The answer is pretty accurate!


----------



## DekPM19

http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/082923-JBL-Control-328C

I maybe wrong but this in-ceiling speaker here looks and has specs similar to the scs 8. I want in ceiling for my atmos speakers and if I go with the scs 8 for surrounds these may work for in ceiling. 
Allen


----------



## COACH2369

DekPM19 said:


> http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/082923-JBL-Control-328C
> 
> I maybe wrong but this in-ceiling speaker here looks and has specs similar to the scs 8. I want in ceiling for my atmos speakers and if I go with the scs 8 for surrounds these may work for in ceiling.
> Allen


I had looked at that speaker as an in ceiling ATMOS option. If I remember correctly, they do not make a backer box for that speaker, so you would have to build your own in order to install them correctly in your ceiling. Probably not a big deal for folks who are handy, but I am not one of those folks. 

Ended up going with four more of the SCS8's for ATMOS duty.


----------



## carp

That does look like a great option. However, I want some coverage in both rows and that wouldn't happen with the in ceilings.... that and I have no skills either.


----------



## DekPM19

You can buy a box for them http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/082928-JBL-MTC300BB8 , but I wonder about the aiming of the atmos speakers verses in-ceiling too. I am only going to have one row of seats and like Carp I am only insteaded in the MLP.
Allen


----------



## desertdome

The backcan is required for the 328C.

Carp, you should get over to hear Bessinger's Atmos system sometime. He has in-ceiling Atmos speakers.


----------



## carp

Yeah, I'll have to do that for sure.


----------



## jedimastergrant

Michael what does he have for in ceiling?


----------



## raynist

I see you are selling the 88a. I thought you loved Dirac, what's the plan?


----------



## carp

I went without it when I bought the Denon AVR and fell in love with the no hissing!! I hooked it back up and I just can't do it. The audible hiss with 3 4722's is just too much. I think I'll have Dirac again someday, but not until I buy an AVR that has it for all speakers and subs. The Arcam looks very interesting, but not sure I want to spend that much right now. I'm leaning towards the Yamaha 3060 (don't really like the Denon so sending it back).


----------



## raynist

carp said:


> I went without it when I bought the Denon AVR and fell in love with the no hissing!! I hooked it back up and I just can't do it. The audible hiss with 3 4722's is just too much. I think I'll have Dirac again someday, but not until I buy an AVR that has it for all speakers and subs. The Arcam looks very interesting, but not sure I want to spend that much right now. I'm leaning towards the Yamaha 3060 (don't really like the Denon so sending it back).


I do remember you mentioning the hiss 

Was there no hiss with the 212 center?


----------



## Frohlich

carp said:


> I went without it when I bought the Denon AVR and fell in love with the no hissing!! I hooked it back up and I just can't do it. The audible hiss with 3 4722's is just too much. I think I'll have Dirac again someday, but not until I buy an AVR that has it for all speakers and subs. The Arcam looks very interesting, but not sure I want to spend that much right now. I'm leaning towards the Yamaha 3060 (don't really like the Denon so sending it back).


When I had the Crown DSi amps for the 4722 I also had hissing. The JBLs are super high sensitivity. Since I switched amps it totally went away. I don't miss the hissing either


----------



## carp

raynist said:


> I do remember you mentioning the hiss
> 
> Was there no hiss with the 212 center?


Yes there was, and it did bug me. However with all 3 LCR speakers hissing it seems to be much worse.


----------



## carp

The 212 is even more efficient than the 4722, around 1-1.5 db's more in my room. However it didn't seem to have as loud of a hiss, not sure why that is.


----------



## Scott Simonian

JDontee said:


> Reading the headaches Grant, Jonathan, and now Carp are going through for Atmos makes me really want to wait until I build a new theater (if that ever happens). I do enjoy Atmos, but man, it's quite a challenge to upgrade an existing room. New AVR, maybe a 2 channel amp, 4 more speakers, UHD player because many Atmos content is only available on that, somehow fitting those 4 speakers in my very low ceiling, etc.
> 
> I remember watching Cloverfield Lane in 5.1 and remember hearing things above me. When that happened, I really started wondering if it would be worth the headache and cost. I'll let Carp finish up his upgrade and he can tell me if his 9.1 (extra surrounds) is a bigger leap from 7.1, than 7.1.4 or his 9.1.4. For my room, the 9.1 configuration has me intrigued.
> 
> Keep up the good work being my guinea pig. I appreciate it.


Dahfuq?

What headaches are all these guys having all of a sudden? Afaik, Jonathan had it all "perfect". What's going on with Grant now?

You think upgrading is bad. Just imagine doing it ALL from scratch. That's gotta be harder. Right?

It is worth the headache andwork and cost. One just has to do it correctly.

Also .... Dolby Atmos isn't for everybody. I know it's the new sound tech so "gotta have it!", right? But... you don't have to have it. If you can't accommodate it correctly, then don't bother wasting time and money on a hodge-podge job. Leave it to someone to do it wrong and many do, unfortunately. Hell. Even Dolby doesn't know how to use their own technology well sometimes. 

However, it really isn't that hard to really set up well. One just has to have the right setting for it to be applied and the interest/desire for more cohesive surround sound that fills a gap that was once unused above the listener.



jedimastergrant said:


> I have wondered the same thing. For my room I don't have much of a choice unless I want to cut into my ceiling. Or buy very low profile speakers such as the JTR Slanted 8 LP.
> 
> -With in ceiling speakers that point straight down you are not getting the direct ceiling reflections. Would this provide better ability to pan sounds around the room by getting more direct sound and less reflected sound?
> 
> -On the other hand with the speakers placed in the room and pointed across the room with some ceiling reflection I would think it could add to the ambience effect of immersive audio. It could also prevent the ability to pin point a speaker which can sometimes be annoying. But, maybe the more diffuse sound will prevent sounds from panning cleanly?
> 
> Maybe someone here knows?





carp said:


> paging @*Scott Simonian*


There are tradeoffs doing anything in this hobby. 

When possible, aim the speakers towards the MLP or criss-cross "energy trading" is preferred. Dolby originally recommended (and demoed) their actual overhead speakers firing straight down at the ground. It works but I recommend pointing the speakers at the listeners if you can.


----------



## sigma722

Scott Simonian said:


> You think upgrading is bad. Just imagine doing it ALL from scratch. That's gotta be harder. Right?


I mean in general building a room from scratch is a lot of work. If someone has already gone through the work of building a room from scratch, and are trying to incorporate atmos after the fact, I think _that _is harder than being able to plan them in from the beginning. 

I agree with what you are saying for the most part though. Atmos isn't for everyone, and headache is a relative term. I do think it's harder to incorporate this type of upgrade after the fact though.


----------



## Archaea

Scott Simonian said:


> Dahfuq?
> 
> What headaches are all these guys having all of a sudden? Afaik, Jonathan had it all "perfect". What's going on with Grant now?
> 
> You think upgrading is bad. Just imagine doing it ALL from scratch. That's gotta be harder. Right?
> 
> It is worth the headache andwork and cost. One just has to do it correctly.
> 
> Also .... Dolby Atmos isn't for everybody. I know it's the new sound tech so "gotta have it!", right? But... you don't have to have it. If you can't accommodate it correctly, then don't bother wasting time and money on a hodge-podge job. Leave it to someone to do it wrong and many do, unfortunately. Hell. Even Dolby doesn't know how to use their own technology well sometimes.
> 
> However, it really isn't that hard to really set up well. One just has to have the right setting for it to be applied and the interest/desire for more cohesive surround sound that fills a gap that was once unused above the listener.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are tradeoffs doing anything in this hobby.
> 
> When possible, aim the speakers towards the MLP or criss-cross "energy trading" is preferred. Dolby originally recommended (and demoed) their actual overhead speakers firing straight down at the ground. It works but I recommend pointing the speakers at the listeners if you can.


wait what? What headache do I have with atmos? I'm pleased as peach with my room for cinema/atmos/dts-x etc. 
Honestly. 100% pleased with it for movie content.
Hopefully that sets the record straight. 

That's not to say I wouldn't play with a separate pair of two channel speakers (placed outside of the baffle wall) if given the option - but that doesn't seem to be an easily accessible option with the current AVR generations right now. If I do that I lose two of my atmos ceiling speakers on the Denon x7200wa, and I figured out as well that I can't use active speakers as the secondary/alternate two channel speakers - they'd have to be passive. All that trouble isn't worth while to get a second pair of two channel speakers. So I opted not to pursue any of it, and just enjoy what I have --- which I do quite regularly.

I'm coming up on 3 years now with the Mackie C200. I expect to use them another decade or two - so long as they hold up


----------



## NWCgrad

Archaea said:


> I'm coming up on 3 years now with the Mackie C200. I expect to use them another decade or two - so long as they hold up


That's crazy talk for an AVS member! I calculated my speaker burn rate is every 7.667 years. So in 2022 i will be looking to upgrade my DIY mains.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> There are tradeoffs doing anything in this hobby.
> 
> When possible, aim the speakers towards the MLP or criss-cross "energy trading" is preferred. Dolby originally recommended (and demoed) their actual overhead speakers firing straight down at the ground. It works but I recommend pointing the speakers at the listeners if you can.



I'm curious if it is better to aim at the back row and get ceiling reflections or to not aim them so high but the back row gets screwed a bit. What's nice about the scs8 brackets is that it's very easy to swivel them so I'll be able to try it out and see what I prefer.


----------



## d_c

screw the back row!! SLP is where it is at. 

You could measure it and mark a line on your brackets in both positions so you can do a quick change if you have back row guests over that would care about sq.


----------



## JDontee

I should clarify. It seems the road to Atmos isn't quite as smooth as the other upgrade roads. I'm not speaking about Atmos after everything is dialed in, but simply referring to the money and work required to make Atmos work in an existing space. It has made me begin thinking if it is worth that for my room considering the "headaches" that others have experienced combined with my low ceilings, etc.


----------



## carp

d_c said:


> screw the back row!! SLP is where it is at.
> 
> You could measure it and mark a line on your brackets in both positions so you can do a quick change if you have back row guests over that would care about sq.


That's what I was thinking, optimize for MLP most of the time and switch (if it really makes a difference) the angle for the back row when lot of people are over.


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> I should clarify. It seems the road to Atmos isn't quite as smooth as the other upgrade roads. I'm not speaking about Atmos after everything is dialed in, but simply referring to the money and work required to make Atmos work in an existing space. It has made me begin thinking if it is worth that for my room considering the "headaches" that others have experienced combined with my low ceilings, etc.


I thought the same thing for a long time but I knew I'd eventually cave and go Atmos. It has been a significant improvement going from my old surround speakers and speaker placement to the scs8's and their placement so if the ceiling speakers add anything it will be icing on the cake.


----------



## desertdome

Carp, please experiment for all of us.
1. Get 4 pieces of Juno 8' track for track lighting: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Juno-Trac-Lites-8-ft-Black-Section-R8BL/204362603
2. Mount track to ceiling and connect speaker wire to track.
3. Get 4 Juno T31BL pendant adapters that support 25 lbs: http://www.electricbargainstores.com/product-p/juno-t31bl.htm
4. Hang or attach ceiling speakers to pendant adapters and wire speaker to adapter.
5. Now you can instantly position the Atmos speaker anywhere along the 8' track by just snapping it in. Instead of track lighting, you have track listening.


----------



## carp

Ha, when we bought the house the previous owners had track lighting in the basement, the track lighting/speaker thing would have been an attractive combo.


----------



## Scott Simonian

sigma722 said:


> I agree with what you are saying for the most part though. Atmos isn't for everyone, and headache is a relative term. I do think it's harder to incorporate this type of upgrade after the fact though.


I agree.



Archaea said:


> wait what? What headache do I have with atmos? I'm pleased as peach with my room for cinema/atmos/dts-x etc.
> Honestly. 100% pleased with it for movie content.
> Hopefully that sets the record straight.
> 
> That's not to say I wouldn't play with a separate pair of two channel speakers (placed outside of the baffle wall) if given the option - but that doesn't seem to be an easily accessible option with the current AVR generations right now. If I do that I lose two of my atmos ceiling speakers on the Denon x7200wa, and I figured out as well that I can't use active speakers as the secondary/alternate two channel speakers - they'd have to be passive. All that trouble isn't worth while to get a second pair of two channel speakers. So I opted not to pursue any of it, and just enjoy what I have --- which I do quite regularly.
> 
> I'm coming up on 3 years now with the Mackie C200. I expect to use them another decade or two - so long as they hold up


Not too surprising. We always are interested in other, new things. Having the same speakers for 3 years is not a bad thing. Just means you made a well informed choice in speakers. 



carp said:


> I'm curious if it is better to aim at the back row and get ceiling reflections or to not aim them so high but the back row gets screwed a bit. What's nice about the scs8 brackets is that it's very easy to swivel them so I'll be able to try it out and see what I prefer.


Depends. I'm in the group of "screw em!" honestly. This is OUR theater room. How often are you entertaining a full room of people all who are listening critically? Probably never other than AVS GtG's, amiright? So I say, "let them get what they get". 

But if you want, yes... criss cross the aiming of speakers. 

For example: front left height should point to the furthest back right seat and then opposite for the right height. Repeat for the rear heights but towards the front row. 

That suggestion works for you too @*jedimastergrant* 



JDontee said:


> I should clarify. It seems the road to Atmos isn't quite as smooth as the other upgrade roads. I'm not speaking about Atmos after everything is dialed in, but simply referring to the money and work required to make Atmos work in an existing space. It has made me begin thinking if it is worth that for my room considering the "headaches" that others have experienced combined with my low ceilings, etc.


I guess so. It wasn't expensive or difficult to "make Atmos work" in my existing space. For some it, it might. Others, not so much. That's why I said that "Atmos isn't for everyone" cuz not everyone can accommodate the required speaker locations. The oddest bit (usually WAF related *whipped*) is that the ceiling is sacred ground for some reason. Tons of square footage to be used for absolutely nothing. "You're not allowed to put speakers on/in the ceiling!" Why not? Lol. What else goes up there?


----------



## JDontee

Cost is always relative to the person. But buying a new AVR, 2 channel amp, 4 more speakers, wire for those speakers from my projector room, UHD player since much of Atmos is only on those discs, isn't exactly cheap. WAF isn't an issue, disposable income is. I applaud those who have upgraded and are happy. I look forward to watching movies in their rooms.


----------



## desertdome

Going with Atmos is cheap! The Amazon Fire HD 8 is only $89.99, supports Dolby Atmos, and includes speakers!


----------



## jedimastergrant

Scott Simonian said:


> Dahfuq?
> 
> What headaches are all these guys having all of a sudden? Afaik, Jonathan had it all "perfect". What's going on with Grant now?
> 
> You think upgrading is bad. Just imagine doing it ALL from scratch. That's gotta be harder. Right?
> 
> It is worth the headache andwork and cost. One just has to do it correctly.
> 
> Also .... Dolby Atmos isn't for everybody. I know it's the new sound tech so "gotta have it!", right? But... you don't have to have it. If you can't accommodate it correctly, then don't bother wasting time and money on a hodge-podge job. Leave it to someone to do it wrong and many do, unfortunately. Hell. Even Dolby doesn't know how to use their own technology well sometimes.
> 
> However, it really isn't that hard to really set up well. One just has to have the right setting for it to be applied and the interest/desire for more cohesive surround sound that fills a gap that was once unused above the listener.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are tradeoffs doing anything in this hobby.
> 
> When possible, aim the speakers towards the MLP or criss-cross "energy trading" is preferred. Dolby originally recommended (and demoed) their actual overhead speakers firing straight down at the ground. It works but I recommend pointing the speakers at the listeners if you can.


I think JD is talking about my desire to place larger speakers in the space. 

Here are some of the factors that add difficulty
-standard basement ceiling height of just under 8' after clips channel and double 5/8'' drywall 
-plus a beam in the way 
-plus the projector light path interfering 
-plus the joist space being mostly used up and no desire to puncture my sound isolation shell anyway it gets tricky. 
So the headaches are related to getting the speakers I want in the place that I want them. 

I am actually happy with the way it sounds in my space but hey there is always bigger and better so I want something that will keep up with my S8 base layer.


----------



## carp

Well, I figured out how to mount the scs8's on the ceiling without having to cut into the ceiling and without blocking the projector beam. 

Probably obvious to most people, but sometimes I'm a little slow. 

It's 13 inches from the ceiling aimed down so that the CD aims right at the back row where heads would be. I used some brackets at the hardware store to attach the scs8 bracket to. One speaker down, 3 to go. 

I plan on putting velvet on the ceiling on the front half of the room, so I mounted the speaker with the velvet in between the brackets and the ceiling so I won't have to worry about it later. I'll overlap larger sections of velvet, it seems blends well from previous velveting attempts.


----------



## d_c

^^^ that looks tucked in nicely.

What did you not like about the Denon? I have to pick something out for Atmos and am looking at the Marantz 7702 or 7703 but they are pricey for me


----------



## carp

d_c said:


> ^^^ that looks tucked in nicely.
> 
> What did you not like about the Denon? I have to pick something out for Atmos and am looking at the Marantz 7702 or 7703 but they are pricey for me



It's nice, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't have the options of the Yamaha. The Yammie has a lot more tweakability on it's EQ down to 16 hz (I'd like to not have to use the mini 2x4) and you can make tweaks after room correction. Not sure I would use YPAO, but I'll try it for sure. 

Also, there are presets you can use. For example, for music I'm really liking the dolby surround upmixer with the rear surround speakers turned off, just playing the LCR and the front pair of side surrounds. In the Yamaha I can hit one button to chance from movie speaker configuration to music configuration. 

Stuff like that. Not a huge deal, and if I kept the Denon my life would still be ok.


----------



## d_c

I missed it, which Yamaha did you get? I haven't paid attention to any of the AVR talk until about a week ago when I realized that I am going to have to buy one pretty soon. Whatever I get is going to be last years model and probably a refurb so that I can get more for less, but it has to do 7.4.1. Which others have you looked at that you would point me to?


----------



## carp

The 3060. I'm sending you a text.


----------



## carp




----------



## carp

Here's a panoramic pic, so looks a little funny but I wanted to get all 10 surrounds in one shot.


----------



## JDontee

Jeez, what have you been doing this whole time? The room looks the same to me.


----------



## lukeamdman

Did those spikes work out for the Crowson?


----------



## carp

I think they will, I haven't glued them on yet. However, they came with self adhesive pads that I put on the spikes after having my buddy at school (shop teacher) cut off the bolts. Those pads should make them a lot easier to glue to the Crowson.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Wow! I'm impressed with the layout.

And a Yamaha. 

F**k yeh.


----------



## COACH2369

I love the black hole look you have created and something I am in the process of doing on my end as well.

What kind of velvet did you get?


----------



## carp

COACH2369 said:


> I love the black hole look you have created and something I am in the process of doing on my end as well.
> 
> What kind of velvet did you get?


JoAnn's - they have 2 kinds of velvet, I used the cheaper of the 2. I can't remember what they call it, it's usually 19.99 per yard but often goes on sale for 13.99 per yard and last weekend was 9.99 per yard. With the coupons they let you use the 40 percent off coupon if it's 19.99 per yard, they let you use the 20 percent off coupon if it's 13.99 per yard and no coupon if it's 9.99 per yard.


----------



## carp

I was thinking I could do away with the mini 2x4 using the EQ functions on the Yamaha but after playing around with it I don't think I want to do that. 

The problem is when I hook up the Yamaha to the 2x4 the subwoofer output is so low. Remove the 2x4 from the chain and then there is plenty of output, but then I don't have the easy way of boosting the low frequencies. 

I never had this issue of low output with the 2x4 in the chain with the Pioneer Elite or the Denon. 

So, do I need something like this if I want to continue to use the 2x4 with the Yamaha?

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/50-14820


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> JoAnn's - they have 2 kinds of velvet, I used the cheaper of the 2. I can't remember what they call it, it's usually 19.99 per yard but often goes on sale for 13.99 per yard and last weekend was 9.99 per yard. With the coupons they let you use the 40 percent off coupon if it's 19.99 per yard, they let you use the 20 percent off coupon if it's 13.99 per yard and no coupon if it's 9.99 per yard.


I know exactly which kind that is... 

Would you be able to please send me a PM, if you don't mind, with how you installed the velvet on your walls and ceiling? I am wanting to do this exact thing but can't figure out the easiest way of doing it...plus I am not handy at all. lol


----------



## carp

I'll post here in case anyone else is interested in doing this. 

The ceiling takes a lot more time. I wanted it to lay as flat as possible against the ceiling. So, I use tacks to temporarily hold the velvet in place - it takes a lot of tacks. Stretch the velvet as you go so that there are as few wrinkles as possible. When I was satisfied with how it looked I stapled it in place and removed the tacks. I used flat black spray paint on the staples before loading them into the stapler. It makes the staples very hard to see unless you are up close and looking for them. 

The walls are easier, because I just kind of hung them like curtains. I used tacks and then replaced with staples along the tops of the velvet only, the only side staples I used are on the far edge of the velvet closest to the back of the room. 

Another trick for this velvet is that to get a straighter looking edge you should rip it instead of cut with scissors. Start a short cut with scissors and then rip and it it will be perfectly straight. You will get a mess of velvety strings but other than being annoyoing it's not a big deal to cut off any hanging strings. 

*If you don't need odd amounts you won't have to use the cut/rip method. Instead, just fold the outside edge *(edges that have gold lines) underneath itself before you tack. If you pull it tight and put the tacks in the same place in the velvet then it will give you a straight line on your edges - straighter looking and better looking than if you have to cut/rip. 

God help you if you have a beam like I do. That part really takes a lot of time.


----------



## carp

If you want the walls to be as neat looking (no folds or wrinkles) then you will have to do the stretch/tons of tacks/replace with flat black painted staples that you did on the ceiling. I didn't mess with that for the walls because on the left side of the room I have to get into my built in book case and also the equipment rack so I need to be able to move the velvet out of the way.


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> I'll post here in case anyone else is interested in doing this.
> 
> The ceiling takes a lot more time. I wanted it to lay as flat as possible against the ceiling. So, I use tacks to temporarily hold the velvet in place - it takes a lot of tacks. Stretch the velvet as you go so that there are as few wrinkles as possible. When I was satisfied with how it looked I stapled it in place and removed the tacks. I used flat black spray paint on the staples before loading them into the stapler. It makes the staples very hard to see unless you are up close and looking for them.
> 
> The walls are easier, because I just kind of hung them like curtains. I used tacks and then replaced with staples along the tops of the velvet only, the only side staples I used are on the far edge of the velvet closest to the back of the room.
> 
> Another trick for this velvet is that to get a straighter looking edge you should rip it instead of cut with scissors. Start a short cut with scissors and then rip and it it will be perfectly straight. You will get a mess of velvety strings but other than being annoyoing it's not a big deal to cut off any hanging strings.
> 
> *If you don't need odd amounts you won't have to use the cut/rip method. Instead, just fold the outside edge *(edges that have gold lines) underneath itself before you tack. If you pull it tight and put the tacks in the same place in the velvet then it will give you a straight line on your edges - straighter looking and better looking than if you have to cut/rip.
> 
> God help you if you have a beam like I do. That part really takes a lot of time.


Thanks Carp.

I am envisioning having the velvet come out on the ceiling and side walls all the way back to my first row of seats. Might not go as far on the ceiling, but would like to give me a "black hole" effect. The issue up to this point was figuring out how to do this with as little velvet as possible and still keep my treatments in play. I am thinking about redoing my treatments with the same velvet and then hang them on top of the velvet.... 

Hopefully this isn't rude, but how much velvet did you end up buying and using for that project?

Also - did you hang the velvet from wood on the side walls or just staple into the walls?


----------



## COACH2369

My vision is pretty much what you did....and I like how your room turned out.


----------



## carp

COACH2369 said:


> Thanks Carp.
> 
> I am envisioning having the velvet come out on the ceiling and side walls all the way back to my first row of seats. Might not go as far on the ceiling, but would like to give me a "black hole" effect. The issue up to this point was figuring out how to do this with as little velvet as possible and still keep my treatments in play. I am thinking about redoing my treatments with the same velvet and then hang them on top of the velvet....
> 
> Hopefully this isn't rude, but how much velvet did you end up buying and using for that project?
> 
> Also - did you hang the velvet from wood on the side walls or just staple into the walls?



Ha, I like to not think about how much because I kept having to go back for more velvet so it added up to a lot. Over 300 dollars easily. 

The black hole thing is cool... but it does cause an issue. While the blacks are better on the screen and picture quality is better... it also makes you more aware of how not quite so black you levels are than before putting up the velvet. It makes sense because now you are comparing the black on the screen to the abyss of black of the velvet. At least that's what it did to me. However, at the same time it really does improve picture quality because you don't get all the light splashing back on the screen to wash it out. 

I'm still deciding if I want to paint the back of the room dark. Not sure if I'll like it or not since I like to be in here a lot and not just for watching movies with all the lights off.


----------



## COACH2369

Here are a few pictures I took when I was sampling out velvet. You can see the side treatments I have. I figured I could wrap those in velvet and they would disappear into the walls as well. Then my ceiling treatments are going away and being replaced with some diffusers.. 

I have had about 6 or 7 various velvet samples and my favorite so far has been the stuff you used from JoAnn's. It will be fun for me to see how many stores I will need to visit to get all that I need. lol


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> Ha, I like to not think about how much because I kept having to go back for more velvet so it added up to a lot. Over 300 dollars easily.
> 
> The black hole thing is cool... but it does cause an issue. While the blacks are better on the screen and picture quality is better... it also makes you more aware of how not quite so black you levels are than before putting up the velvet. It makes sense because now you are comparing the black on the screen to the abyss of black of the velvet. At least that's what it did to me. However, at the same time it really does improve picture quality because you don't get all the light splashing back on the screen to wash it out.
> 
> I'm still deciding if I want to paint the back of the room dark. Not sure if I'll like it or not since I like to be in here a lot and not just for watching movies with all the lights off.


I can see that being an issue but have been testing some velvet and I like the lack of light spilling into the room. Not like a whole lot was since my side walls are gray and my ceiling is black....but it was noticeable with the little velvet I have up on there.

$300 isn't as bad as I thought you might say.. 

How many locations did you have to visit to get all that?


----------



## carp

COACH2369 said:


> I can see that being an issue but have been testing some velvet and I like the lack of light spilling into the room. Not like a whole lot was since my side walls are gray and my ceiling is black....but it was noticeable with the little velvet I have up on there.
> 
> $300 isn't as bad as I thought you might say..
> 
> How many locations did you have to visit to get all that?


Hmm... well I forgot about all the velvet I already had up. I looked back at my receipts and I was around 375 for the new velvet. I had spent a lot in the past covering up the sub stacks, 2 rows deep on the ceiling, also under the screen, etc. So probably 600 easy for everything that I have up.


----------



## carp

I went to 2 locations, but went back to the same location twice when they ran out and had more come in.


----------



## carp

I'm curious how the more expensive JoAnn's velvet would work, it seems thicker and nicer but I didn't want to pay that much. It's 29.99 a yard when not on sale.


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> I was thinking I could do away with the mini 2x4 using the EQ functions on the Yamaha but after playing around with it I don't think I want to do that.
> 
> The problem is when I hook up the Yamaha to the 2x4 the subwoofer output is so low. Remove the 2x4 from the chain and then there is plenty of output, but then I don't have the easy way of boosting the low frequencies.
> 
> I never had this issue of low output with the 2x4 in the chain with the Pioneer Elite or the Denon.
> 
> So, do I need something like this if I want to continue to use the 2x4 with the Yamaha?
> 
> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/50-14820


Maximum output voltage on the RX-A3060 is 6.5 VRMS. 

If we would have had time on Sunday morning, I would have connected my oscilloscope and MOTU to see exactly what was going on with levels. 

There are lots of ways volume is accumulated in the DSP section of a processor, receiver, or DSP. You can use Options > Tone > Bass in the Yamaha to boost the bass with a house curve. There is a subwoofer trim on the remote (click Option) that is different than the subwoofer trim in Speaker setup. I haven't tested these to see if they clip at Reference level, though. You do need the subwoofer trim in the speaker setup at -7 dB to prevent clipping at reference level with worse case scenario movies. 

If you have lower voltage going through the miniDSP, you can also turn gains up on amps unless they are already at max.


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> I'm curious how the more expensive JoAnn's velvet would work, it seems thicker and nicer but I didn't want to pay that much. It's 29.99 a yard when not on sale.


That stuff is VERY nice.....and VERY dark..

I used that stuff for my screen wall and I was very happy with how it looks, but like you said the price is $29.99 before any coupons. That would add up rather quickly.


----------



## cvinfig

^You guys know there's this stuff called "paint," right? It comes in black, FYI...


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> I was thinking I could do away with the mini 2x4 using the EQ functions on the Yamaha but after playing around with it I don't think I want to do that.
> 
> The problem is when I hook up the Yamaha to the 2x4 the subwoofer output is so low. Remove the 2x4 from the chain and then there is plenty of output, but then I don't have the easy way of boosting the low frequencies.
> 
> I never had this issue of low output with the 2x4 in the chain with the Pioneer Elite or the Denon.
> 
> So, do I need something like this if I want to continue to use the 2x4 with the Yamaha?
> 
> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/50-14820


I have not seen reports of that particular box, but with your sealed setup, you're going to want to ensure the bump box you use has a flat FR. I have tested multiple and the ones I would say pass the grade, in no particular order:

Henry Matchbox HD
Samson S-convert (Hard to find these days)
ATI mm100

You just puked looking up the prices I'm sure. They can be had for fractions of the cost on ebay. I actually think I still have the ATI and know I have the samson still. Lemme know...


----------



## COACH2369

cvinfig said:


> ^You guys know there's this stuff called "paint," right? It comes in black, FYI...


HaHa.... I know and the sad thing is, my ceiling is painted. Even though it is a good flat style paint, I still get "enough" light spilling onto the ceiling that I would like to eliminate it.


----------



## carp

cvinfig said:


> ^You guys know there's this stuff called "paint," right? It comes in black, FYI...


That's what my wife said!! Come on Chuck you are supposed to be enabling my psychosis here, not agreeing with her!  

Now that my room is all nice and dark all I need is the same projector you have and I'll be set.


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> Maximum output voltage on the RX-A3060 is 6.5 VRMS.
> 
> If we would have had time on Sunday morning, I would have connected my oscilloscope and MOTU to see exactly what was going on with levels.
> 
> There are lots of ways volume is accumulated in the DSP section of a processor, receiver, or DSP. You can use Options > Tone > Bass in the Yamaha to boost the bass with a house curve. There is a subwoofer trim on the remote (click Option) that is different than the subwoofer trim in Speaker setup. I haven't tested these to see if they clip at Reference level, though. You do need the subwoofer trim in the speaker setup at -7 dB to prevent clipping at reference level with worse case scenario movies.
> 
> If you have lower voltage going through the miniDSP, you can also turn gains up on amps unless they are already at max.





beastaudio said:


> I have not seen reports of that particular box, but with your sealed setup, you're going to want to ensure the bump box you use has a flat FR. I have tested multiple and the ones I would say pass the grade, in no particular order:
> 
> Henry Matchbox HD
> Samson S-convert (Hard to find these days)
> ATI mm100
> 
> You just puked looking up the prices I'm sure. They can be had for fractions of the cost on ebay. I actually think I still have the ATI and know I have the samson still. Lemme know...


Oh good lord... I forgot I had to turn down the gains on my amps when I ran YPAO yesterday. 

2 steps forward, 3 steps back for this moron.


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> Oh good lord... I forgot I had to turn down the gains on my amps when I ran YPAO yesterday.
> 
> *2 steps forward, 3 steps back for this moron*.


Story of my life with this hobby at times! :laugh:


----------



## Archaea

cvinfig said:


> ^You guys know there's this stuff called "paint," right? It comes in black, FYI...



right - and paint is REALLY cheap. 


Velvet ~$3.50 per square foot. ~ $600+ for half your room.
Paint = $.05 per square foot. ~ $15 for half your room.






I mean it's so cheap - it's almost like you could paint your room black and if you don't like it paint it back a different color for like 30 bucks.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Oh good lord... I forgot I had to turn down the gains on my amps when I ran YPAO yesterday.
> 
> 2 steps forward, 3 steps back for this moron.












Such knobs
So Audio
Hobby's Great



Archaea said:


> right - and paint is REALLY cheap.
> 
> 
> Velvet ~$3.50 per square foot. ~ $600+ for half your room.
> Paint = $.05 per square foot. ~ $15 for half your room.


doesn't come close though. Even a good flat black paint will reflect 5x as much as a velvet covering. You kind of just have to see it to believe it. It's unreal. Jon, look at your screen borders (I assume they are velvet covered) or ceiling tiles, which the theater black F tiles are actually pretty solid, and compare to a flat black surface you may have laying around. It's a pretty significant difference.


----------



## desertdome

Archaea said:


> right - and paint is REALLY cheap.
> 
> 
> Velvet ~$3.50 per square foot. ~ $600+ for half your room.
> Paint = $.05 per square foot. ~ $15 for half your room.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean it's so cheap - it's almost like you could paint your room black and if you don't like it paint it back a different color for like 30 bucks.


A yard of Joann's velvet is 11 square feet. At $9.99 that is $0.91 per foot. 
Roscoe Supersaturated Velour is one of the darkest black paints in the Black Theater Improvement thread. It still isn't as dark as velvet and is $0.22 per square ft when diluted. Some don't dilute it much and then it is $0.66/ft. Guys spend thousands on projector upgrades that give much less improvement in contrast ratio than some black velvet in the front of their room.


----------



## Scott Simonian

beastaudio said:


> Such knobs
> So Audio
> Hobby's Great


----------



## COACH2369

Scott Simonian said:


>


LOL!!!!!

That was GREAT!!


----------



## dwaleke

carp said:


> I was thinking I could do away with the mini 2x4 using the EQ functions on the Yamaha but after playing around with it I don't think I want to do that.
> 
> The problem is when I hook up the Yamaha to the 2x4 the subwoofer output is so low. Remove the 2x4 from the chain and then there is plenty of output, but then I don't have the easy way of boosting the low frequencies.
> 
> I never had this issue of low output with the 2x4 in the chain with the Pioneer Elite or the Denon.
> 
> So, do I need something like this if I want to continue to use the 2x4 with the Yamaha?
> 
> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/50-14820


Which 2x4 do you have?

The 3060 can output 2v clean output on the RCA outputs (perhaps a bit more - you can measure). Should be a bit more on the subwoofer channel.

The unbalanced 2x4 could only do 0.9v output and either 2.0v input or 0.9v input.

I'm assuming you have the unbalanced 2x4?

You should not need a bump box at all. 

Here's a good serious on how to optimize gain between components here.


----------



## d_c

Are you saying the voltage out of the Yamaha is fine now, the gains on the amps were just turned down?


----------



## desertdome

dwaleke said:


> Which 2x4 do you have?
> 
> The 3060 can output 2v clean output on the RCA outputs (perhaps a bit more - you can measure). Should be a bit more on the subwoofer channel.
> 
> The unbalanced 2x4 could only do 0.9v output and either 2.0v input or 0.9v input.
> 
> I'm assuming you have the unbalanced 2x4?
> 
> You should not need a bump box at all.
> 
> Here's a good serious on how to optimize gain between components here.


Maximum output on the 3060 is 4V on all channels except subwoofer and 6.5V on subwoofer output. 

For comparison, the balanced subwoofer output on the CX-A5100 has a max of 13V.


----------



## dwaleke

Plenty of output. 

The 2x4 is knocking down your signal.


----------



## Scott Simonian

I think he fixed the issue, @dwaleke


----------



## dwaleke

Scott Simonian said:


> I think he fixed the issue, @dwaleke


Thanks I missed it.


----------



## carp

d_c said:


> Are you saying the voltage out of the Yamaha is fine now, the gains on the amps were just turned down?


Yes, user error as usual.


----------



## lukeamdman

carp said:


> I think they will, I haven't glued them on yet. However, they came with self adhesive pads that I put on the spikes after having my buddy at school (shop teacher) cut off the bolts. Those pads should make them a lot easier to glue to the Crowson.


Hmmmm, I'm having trouble picturing this. What is that self-adhesive pad for?

I was thinking you'd use gorilla glue or even a 2-part "metal" epoxy to glue to spikes on permanently. If the self-adhesive pad is between the spike and Crowson, are you sure that pad will be strong enough and not just tear in half?


----------



## carp

lukeamdman said:


> Hmmmm, I'm having trouble picturing this. What is that self-adhesive pad for?
> 
> I was thinking you'd use gorilla glue or even a 2-part "metal" epoxy to glue to spikes on permanently. If the self-adhesive pad is between the spike and Crowson, are you sure that pad will be strong enough and not just tear in half?


I figured it would help hold better than glueing metal to metal. If not, I'll take out out and glue it again. I didn't think of it tearing, I guess that could happen.


----------



## raynist

carp said:


> I'll post here in case anyone else is interested in doing this.
> 
> The ceiling takes a lot more time. I wanted it to lay as flat as possible against the ceiling. So, I use tacks to temporarily hold the velvet in place - it takes a lot of tacks. Stretch the velvet as you go so that there are as few wrinkles as possible. When I was satisfied with how it looked I stapled it in place and removed the tacks. I used flat black spray paint on the staples before loading them into the stapler. It makes the staples very hard to see unless you are up close and looking for them.
> 
> The walls are easier, because I just kind of hung them like curtains. I used tacks and then replaced with staples along the tops of the velvet only, the only side staples I used are on the far edge of the velvet closest to the back of the room.
> 
> Another trick for this velvet is that to get a straighter looking edge you should rip it instead of cut with scissors. Start a short cut with scissors and then rip and it it will be perfectly straight. You will get a mess of velvety strings but other than being annoyoing it's not a big deal to cut off any hanging strings.
> 
> *If you don't need odd amounts you won't have to use the cut/rip method. Instead, just fold the outside edge *(edges that have gold lines) underneath itself before you tack. If you pull it tight and put the tacks in the same place in the velvet then it will give you a straight line on your edges - straighter looking and better looking than if you have to cut/rip.
> 
> God help you if you have a beam like I do. That part really takes a lot of time.


I have drop ceiling so I was able to use small neodymium magnets to hold the velvet on the ceilings metal tracks. The magnets are black also.


----------



## COACH2369

I am curious what kind of stapler you used for the project?

Assuming my trusty 30 year old Swingline desk top stapler won't get the job done.


----------



## carp

I don't remember the exact model, but I used T50 1/4" staples. Most of the staplers at the hardware store use T50 staples.


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> I don't remember the exact model, but I used T50 1/4" staples. Most of the staplers at the hardware store use T50 staples.



Perfect. I just Googled those staples and it appears I have a similar model.

If not, then the cost of a new one isn't much at all. 

When I made my panels for the screen wall, I borrowed Dgage's fancy air pressured staple gun. Might hit him up for that again if I redo my panels with velvet as well. 

I a hoping to play around with this over the break....just a bit scared/nervous about stapling into the ceiling and wall.


----------



## carp

You'll be glad you did it. Each day I come down here I like it more and more now that I'm getting used to it.


----------



## carp

I've been so busy playing with/figuring out my new AVR and projector that I didn't try out Atmos until last night. I've listened to the Atmos demo disk a bunch of times with 7.1 so I'm very used to how it sounds. I also played it a lot when I installed the new SCS8 speakers on the side walls before I put up the ceiling speakers. That was quite the upgrade already to the scs8's from the one pair of side surround Volt 10's and eD cinema 6 rear surrounds. 

Well, it's just as big of a jump now that I added the new AVR and 4 ceiling speakers. So awesome. I've heard Atmos in friends rooms and it's amazing, but you never know how big of an improvement it will be in your own room so it was quite the relief when I tried it out last night. 

Next I tried out the Roger Waters The Wall Blu Ray. Hmmm I hadn't noticed the screen door effect on anything with the new Epson 5040, but it was pretty bad on that disk and I don't remember noticing it on the same disk with my old projector. Odd because the new projector pretty much does away with it when using e shift and it was on. I want to use Comfortably Numb as one of my demo's for the Crawl but the picture looked like poo last night.


----------



## carp

Just got my first infraction in all these years. I lowered the price on the minidsp 88A I'm selling. Funny... my thread when I sold my 215's was pages long and nothing happened. Love the consistency. 

I kind of wish they would go back to the old days when you paid 5 bucks or whatever it was to post something for sale but there were so many fewer threads.


----------



## lukeamdman

carp said:


> I figured it would help hold better than glueing metal to metal. If not, I'll take out out and glue it again. I didn't think of it tearing, I guess that could happen.


It very well might hold just fine as is. If it ain't broke!


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> Just got my first infraction in all these years. I lowered the price on the minidsp 88A I'm selling. Funny... my thread when I sold my 215's was pages long and nothing happened. Love the consistency.
> 
> I kind of wish they would go back to the old days when you paid 5 bucks or whatever it was to post something for sale but there were so many fewer threads.


That same thing happened to me....for answering a question in my own thread..

Oh well...


----------



## dwaleke

Mods want you to buy a subscription.

Then you don't get infractions for bumping your own threads in the for sale section.


----------



## JDontee

carp said:


> Just got my first infraction in all these years. I lowered the price on the minidsp 88A I'm selling. Funny... my thread when I sold my 215's was pages long and nothing happened. Love the consistency.
> 
> I kind of wish they would go back to the old days when you paid 5 bucks or whatever it was to post something for sale but there were so many fewer threads.


Yeah, same thing happened to me for lowering a price on an amp. It's moronic. What's truly stupid is that you can't delete an ad. It makes searching for things so difficult. But hey, this is the only site that gives great reviews on Monoprice PA speakers (using DIRAC)...


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> I've been so busy playing with/figuring out my new AVR and projector that I didn't try out Atmos until last night. I've listened to the Atmos demo disk a bunch of times with 7.1 so I'm very used to how it sounds. I also played it a lot when I installed the new SCS8 speakers on the side walls before I put up the ceiling speakers. That was quite the upgrade already to the scs8's from the one pair of side surround Volt 10's and eD cinema 6 rear surrounds.
> 
> Well, it's just as big of a jump now that I added the new AVR and 4 ceiling speakers. So awesome. I've heard Atmos in friends rooms and it's amazing, but you never know how big of an improvement it will be in your own room so it was quite the relief when I tried it out last night.
> 
> Next I tried out the Roger Waters The Wall Blu Ray. Hmmm I hadn't noticed the screen door effect on anything with the new Epson 5040, but it was pretty bad on that disk and I don't remember noticing it on the same disk with my old projector. Odd because the new projector pretty much does away with it when using e shift and it was on. I want to use Comfortably Numb as one of my demo's for the Crawl but the picture looked like poo last night.




Welcome ...to immersive audio. 

*jurassic park theme*


----------



## carp

About time!  It's getting harder and harder to get the involuntary grin when listening to my system, but it was happening over and over again going through the Atmos demo disk.

One thing I noticed is that the difference between how great the immersion is from the MLP to other seats is a lot more than the difference when using 7.1.

So... for the KC crawl there really will be just one great seat and a bunch of ok seats. Sitting in the back row I really wanted more volume from the LRC, the sound from the surrounds was a little overwhelming. For movie nights with friends or family I'll probably bump up the LRC. I am using YPAO volume, I wonder if it bumps up the surrounds more the lower the volume is like dynamic EQ does. 

Also... YPAO is really impressing me. I keep toggling on and off and I prefer it on, even for music. I like Dirac beter, but I like YPAO better than Audyssey which I was just using off and on the Denon that I'm returning. 

One thing that doesn't impress me with YPAO is that it refuses to boost the bass even a little bit down low. The drop off with the sealed subs looks identical below 30 hz to no boost at all. I do have the EQ options down to 15 hz, but I don't think that's a good idea compared to using the mini 2x4.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Yeah, it's interesting but somewhat disappointing.... with immersive audio, the "sweet spot" actually got smaller. However, everybody is in a position to experience the overall soundstage. Just from different perspectives, I guess.

I wouldn't let it bother you. Just enjoy it for yourself. Everybody else will get immersive sound too.

Might as well let the MiniDSP do the boost as it's a shelf not just PEQ that the Yamaha would do ~15hz.

Glad you like YPAO. Which one do you prefer?

There is a lot of content out there now that is native Atmos or DTS:X. You'll definitely look out for that now.  And enjoy playing with DSU and Neural:X.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> Yeah, it's interesting but somewhat disappointing.... with immersive audio, the "sweet spot" actually got smaller. However, everybody is in a position to experience the overall soundstage. Just from different perspectives, I guess.
> 
> I wouldn't let it bother you. Just enjoy it for yourself. Everybody else will get immersive sound too.
> 
> Might as well let the MiniDSP do the boost as it's a shelf not just PEQ that the Yamaha would do ~15hz.
> 
> Glad you like YPAO. Which one do you prefer?
> 
> There is a lot of content out there now that is native Atmos or DTS:X. You'll definitely look out for that now.  And enjoy playing with DSU and Neural:X.


Flat is what I am using on YPAO. Cleans up issues between 100 and 300 hz better than Audyssey, as did Dirac. I stayed up late last night listening to song after song to make sure there was no listening fatigue with YPAO on, and there wasn't. Very impressed with the Yamaha. I'm always on my laptop that's connected to my system so it's nice to be able to make any tweaks on the avr audio with the web setup.


----------



## carp

I posted this before, but people with dolby suround and side surrounds that are in front of you a bit (mine are at 70 degrees) should try this for music. Turn off some speakers (ceiling speakers and rear surounds off) and leave on only the LCR and side surrounds (in my case I also turn off my 2nd set of side surrounds that are at 110 degrees). 

So, 5 speakers on for music using dolby surround. Next, turn down the side surrounds somewhere between 3-6 db's depending on preference. The result is awesome. The side surrounds add just enough to widen the soundstage which makes me not miss having speakers placed wide of the screen for 2 channel, while at the same time the vocals are dead center - obviously since the center is on - and imaging is just as good if not better than 2 channel. 

I don't like dolby surround for upmixing 2 channel music with all the speakers on, so don't give up on it without trying the above. The way I'm using it it's a nice step up from PL2x music.


----------



## cvinfig

carp said:


> I posted this before, but people with dolby suround and side surrounds that are in front of you a bit (mine are at 70 degrees) should try this for music. Turn off some speakers (ceiling speakers and rear surounds off) and leave on only the LCR and side surrounds (in my case I also turn off my 2nd set of side surrounds that are at 110 degrees).
> 
> So, 5 speakers on for music using dolby surround. Next, turn down the side surrounds somewhere between 3-6 db's depending on preference. The result is awesome. The side surrounds add just enough to widen the soundstage which makes me not miss having speakers placed wide of the screen for 2 channel, while at the same time the vocals are dead center - obviously since the center is on - and imaging is just as good if not better than 2 channel.
> 
> I don't like dolby surround for upmixing 2 channel music with all the speakers on, so don't give up on it without trying the above. The way I'm using it it's a nice step up from PL2x music.


Have you tried the above setup with the center channel turned off? A lot of times I listen to music using AnthemLogic-Music mode which doesn't utilize the center channel and lightly engages all of the surround speakers. Here's how they describe it:



> AnthemLogic-Music enhances the stereo listening experience without detracting from the stereo soundstage. This is a minimalist design that uses no echo or reverberation effects. To ensure that the purity of the stereo music soundstage is in no way compromised when you’re sitting in the “sweet spot” and listening to your favorite stereo recordings, the center channel is not used.


----------



## carp

cvinfig said:


> Have you tried the above setup with the center channel turned off? A lot of times I listen to music using AnthemLogic-Music mode which doesn't utilize the center channel and lightly engages all of the surround speakers. Here's how they describe it:


I haven't but I'll try it. My mains aren't toed in very much so I'm not right on axis with them (save space behind the screen by using not a lot of toe in) but obviously I am right on axis with my center so I assumed I'd prefer center on but I'll try it for sure.


----------



## carp

My PC is having issues and I want to replace it. Any recommendations? I use it to play my music, watch youtube concerts, surf, that kind of thing. 

Mine is pretty old so I have no idea what is out there. Do they do 4K now? Will Windows 10 run my minidsp 2x4 without issues?

I'd like to not spend more than 500-600 if possible.


----------



## carp

Also needs HDMI out and digital optical out. Gotta have the option for music when the tv is on 'cause I like to party.


----------



## JDontee

What kind of issues are you having? You may just need some new hardware instead of an entire PC.


----------



## Archaea

carp said:


> My PC is having issues and I want to replace it. Any recommendations? I use it to play my music, watch youtube concerts, surf, that kind of thing.
> 
> Mine is pretty old so I have no idea what is out there. Do they do 4K now? Will Windows 10 run my minidsp 2x4 without issues?
> 
> I'd like to not spend more than 500-600 if possible.


 @stitch1 had a nice Asus gaming tower for sale -- for around that price perhaps.
not sure if he is still wanting to sell it or not.


Otherwise something like this would allow you to do some 1080p gaming on your projector and be a respectable currrent gen mid level gaming machine for the price.
https://slickdeals.net/f/9562412-ac...ive-and-windows-10-home-699-99?src=SiteSearch


There's a 35% off code for machines at Dell Outlet right now which can be a pretty good savings
https://slickdeals.net/f/9579340-de...-desktops-with-save35-code?v=1&src=SiteSearch


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> What kind of issues are you having? You may just need some new hardware instead of an entire PC.


USB's will work and then stop working and then work again, overall speeds very slow for google fiber recently. My wife's Mac gets around 200 up and down and it's a wifi connection while my hard wired PC is around 100 up and 100 down. It used to get more like 600 down and 600 up, not sure what the issue is now. It just runs slow a lot of the time, doesn't like to do multiple things at once, that kind of thing.


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> @stitch1 had a nice Asus gaming tower for sale -- for around that price perhaps.
> not sure if he is still wanting to sell it or not.
> 
> 
> Otherwise something like this would allow you to do some 1080p gaming on your projector and be a respectable currrent gen mid level gaming machine for the price.
> https://slickdeals.net/f/9562412-ac...ive-and-windows-10-home-699-99?src=SiteSearch
> 
> 
> There's a 35% off code for machines at Dell Outlet right now which can be a pretty good savings
> https://slickdeals.net/f/9579340-de...-desktops-with-save35-code?v=1&src=SiteSearch


Cool, thanks.


----------



## JDontee

Weird. Assuming it's not a cable or networking issue, it may be beneficial updating your motherboard and reinstalling Windows. I don't know the details of all your PC gear, but for your price range you could upgrade the Mobo and CPU to an i7. You might be able to use your old ram as well. Microcenter has some good Mobo CPU bundles.


----------



## carp

I've never had good luck with opening it up and replacing things, one thing leads to another, one part not compatible with another part, etc.


----------



## JDontee

In that case, buy Tim's.


----------



## carp

Just texted him.


----------



## carp

Will the 2x4 work fine on windows 10? What about the omnimic?


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> Also needs HDMI out and digital optical out. Gotta have the option for music when the tv is on 'cause I like to party.


I just realized I was playing music to your system from my laptop and I think you could have had TV on while I was doing it. Since your Yamaha supports DLNA you just need a DLNA server on your computer, like JRiver, and you can stream anything, including DSD, to the Yamaha over the network. No need for digital optical out.


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> I just realized I was playing music to your system from my laptop and I think you could have had TV on while I was doing it. Since your Yamaha supports DLNA you just need a DLNA server on your computer, like JRiver, and you can stream anything, including DSD, to the Yamaha over the network. No need for digital optical out.


I use google play music for playing music (at least 50% of the time I listen to music I don't "own"). 

Will that work?


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> I use google play music for playing music (at least 50% of the time I listen to music I don't "own").
> 
> Will that work?


No, but I still don't understand why you would need optical output. Sending HDMI to the Yamaha from the PC has nothing to do with the Yamaha being able to play music from the PC and video from another HDMI input. 

You realize the Yamaha will "Stream Pandora®, Spotify, Napster®, SiriusXM Internet Radio and thousands of free internet radio stations" by itself without a PC? You can also have all your music on a USB hard drive and just connect it directly to the Yamaha with no PC necessary. It supports "DSD 2.8 MHz / 5.6 MHz, FLAC / WAV / AIFF 192 kHz / 24-bit, Apple® Lossless 96 kHz / 24-bit playback".


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> Will the 2x4 work fine on windows 10? What about the omnimic?


Yes to both. Make sure you download Omnimic 5.03 which "No longer requires WinXP emulation mode for proper SPL readings."


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> No, but I still don't understand why you would need optical output. Sending HDMI to the Yamaha from the PC has nothing to do with the Yamaha being able to play music from the PC and video from another HDMI input.
> 
> You realize the Yamaha will "Stream Pandora®, Spotify, Napster®, SiriusXM Internet Radio and thousands of free internet radio stations" by itself without a PC? You can also have all your music on a USB hard drive and just connect it directly to the Yamaha with no PC necessary. It supports "DSD 2.8 MHz / 5.6 MHz, FLAC / WAV / AIFF 192 kHz / 24-bit, Apple® Lossless 96 kHz / 24-bit playback".


I know... I should have showed you how I like to listen to music. I sit here with my laptop (it's connected to my PC that's connected to my AVR through remote desktop) and I surf around while I listen to music. I switch songs a lot, and I like a mix of stuff I own and stuff I don't. When I listen to a station on google play, I very often select the album from the song that's playing and check out a few songs and then back to the google play radio or another station or maybe something from my library. 

Other times I do the same but with the TV on. I go back and forth between music and tv audio with one single touch of a button, and the tv video stays on the whole time. 

Then if I'm suddenly in the mood to watch a youtube concert or whatever I hit one button and my PC ouput is on my big screen and I'm ready to roll.

Basically, I have the easiest and quickest setup for switching what I want for audio and video, and being able to have whatever video source I want while whatever audio source is on using the Kinivo HDMI switcher. 

I hate having to go digging into menus to make any changes. If I can't do it at a touch of a button I don't want it.


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> Yes to both. Make sure you download Omnimic 5.03 which "No longer requires WinXP emulation mode for proper SPL readings."


Cool, thanks!


----------



## carp

Another major motivation for getting a new PC is that my Harmony 900 remote no longer connects to the usb ports. It will, but maybe 1 out of 20 tries. I've done some research on remotes and the 900 works better for me than anything out there that I can see. I love physical buttons and the 900 has more than the Harmony Elite, so I think for me it would be a downgrade to move to the elite. I don't like using my phone or screen controls, hard buttons all the way so I don't have to look at it while I use it.


----------



## cvinfig

desertdome said:


> No, but I still don't understand why you would need optical output. Sending HDMI to the Yamaha from the PC has nothing to do with the Yamaha being able to play music from the PC and video from another HDMI input.


Are you saying the Yamaha can play video from one HDMI input and audio from another HDMI input at the same time? I've never encountered an AVR/pre-pro that could do that (Anthem, Marantz, Integra).


----------



## desertdome

cvinfig said:


> Are you saying the Yamaha can play video from one HDMI input and audio from another HDMI input at the same time? I've never encountered an AVR/pre-pro that could do that (Anthem, Marantz, Integra).


You can press the Option button on the Yamaha remote and change the video to be output with the audio. You have to start audio playback first. For example, play music from an HTPC and then switch video to the DVR to watch a football game while listening to music. 










Carp should be able to program the Harmony 900 to do this with one button push.


----------



## d_c

That is pretty awesome. I like to party too and football while music sounds pretty nice. So you could control Spotify via phone to the PC and not have to switch back to the video to make your changes when wanting to browse/change tracks? Same for Google play too I would guess? Is the Yamaha the only avr that does that?


----------



## JDontee




----------



## Archaea

d_c said:


> That is pretty awesome. I like to party too and football while music sounds pretty nice. So you could control Spotify via phone to the PC and not have to switch back to the video to make your changes when wanting to browse/change tracks? Same for Google play too I would guess? Is the Yamaha the only avr that does that?





cvinfig said:


> Are you saying the Yamaha can play video from one HDMI input and audio from another HDMI input at the same time? I've never encountered an AVR/pre-pro that could do that (Anthem, Marantz, Integra).



The Denon x7200wa lets you mix and match sources for audio and video too. Not sure what other products do. But since the Denon does, at least the equitable maratz will too since they share the same interface and GUI.


----------



## raynist

desertdome said:


> Yes to both. Make sure you download Omnimic 5.03 which "No longer requires WinXP emulation mode for proper SPL readings."


I had v4.7 and had this emulation mode set. I just installed 5.02. So I have to turn this off now? If so, how is that done?


----------



## d_c

I'm looking at this laptop since I haven't had one for awhile. I don't know much about them, but it looks like it has everything I need for cheap.

http://www.microcenter.com/product/469350/Ideapad_310_156_Laptop_Computer_-_Ebony_Black


----------



## lukeamdman

d_c said:


> I'm looking at this laptop since I haven't had one for awhile. I don't know much about them, but it looks like it has everything I need for cheap.
> 
> http://www.microcenter.com/product/469350/Ideapad_310_156_Laptop_Computer_-_Ebony_Black


Ha, Micro Center is just north of me.


----------



## JDontee

Just went to microcenter yesterday. Sister and mom got the hp for $500. Pretty good deal. It's similar to that but it has a SSD drive and better video resolution. 

http://www.microcenter.com/product/...h_Horizontal_Brushing_in_Digital_Thread_Lines


----------



## Archaea

That HP that JD pointed out is a way better machine overall.
An SSD as the primary hard-drive is almost a key requirement for a PC purchase these days.

The I3-7200 sips power. It can manage something silly like a 15 hour battery life too in some laptops.

also - yeah - the resolution on the laptop you are looking at Doug isn't ideal. It's too low. (it'll make icons and text bigger and the expense of having working room on the screen).

My wife bought this one recently and likes it pretty well.
I'm going to re-image it with a cheap SSD soon to get rid of that slow spinning drive.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01K1IO3QW/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I just helped carp pick out a machine at microcenter last night and he got a PowerSpec (microcenter brand) -- I guess they don't make laptops but their PowerSpec machine prices were pretty ridiculous --- as in I couldn't assemble it for the same price with parts right there at the store -- in fact it would have cost me 20% more to assemble it with the same parts and that's not counting time. Carp picked up the g220. He's interested in trying out some gaming and that Nvidia 1060 6GB card is a nice quality card to get started with some legs for the future - especially for 1080p gaming.
http://www.microcenter.com/product/471913/G220_Desktop_Computer


----------



## d_c

That looks like a really nice machine. My htpc in the media room needs an upgrade soon.

I'll use the laptop I'm looking for as a tool for measuring speakers, running REW, adjusting the Audison dsp in my truck, etc. so it doesn't need to be too fancy. I'm shooting for around $300 if I can


----------



## carp

Many thanks to Jonathan for helping me figure out what to get. This thing is awesome. I'm a gamer now.  My wife and I have been paying tons of Battlefield 1 the last 2 days. We suck but it's a blast. The Atmos sound is great, but really rattles me when I'm playing. I get so stressed out! I'll be getting shot and suddenly I'm looking straight up at the sky or down at the ground. Too many buttons and knobs on this remote.  

I played too much today and started to get nauseous from all the movement.


----------



## Archaea

Ha. Did you get the 360 controller working I presume?

You might pick up Star Wars Battlefront for more Atmos gaming goodness. It is only $10 right now, and in my opinion probably the best Atmos demonstration outside a Dolby demo disc.

Standard $10
https://www.origin.com/usa/en-us/store/star-wars/star-wars-battlefront/standard-edition

Ultimate is $30 and has all DLC


Or you can buy standard if you want for $10 and season pass which is $20 for all DLC. Same end result as ultimate.

Avoid the deluxe, that one is the rip off. You get no dlc, just get unlockables upfront. Many of which you'll unlock anyway in a couple hours of playtime.


----------



## carp

What is DLC?


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> What is DLC?


Downloadable Content


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> I hate having to go digging into menus to make any changes. If I can't do it at a touch of a button I don't want it.





carp said:


> I don't like using my phone or screen controls, hard buttons all the way so I don't have to look at it while I use it.


Well....Aren't we just the crotchety old man?


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Well....Aren't we just the crotchety old man?


Ha, missed this. 

Why yes, yes I am.


----------



## carp

It's been great playing games on the new computer. Not so much me, but other people playing when they come over has been fun to watch. IMO Battlefield is better than Battlefront. Both are entertaining. 

Issue #1. My X Box controller suddenly won't connect to the XBox USB wireless adapter. It connected fine the first week, but then all of a sudden it has problems. On Sunday it finally connected, but couldn't get it to connect at all yesterday. I plan on taking it back but I have a feeling that something else is going on because the light still blinks on it and when I hold the button and the button on the x-box the light on the x-box blinks 3 times like normal, but it doesn't control anything unlike the first week when it was fool proof.

Oh, this was pretty cool. In the settings on the Star Wars game I changed the resolution to as high as it would go (4000 something by 2000 something) and it worked. I didn't think it would since I have a 50 foot cable to my 5040 projector. Clarity was great, and the info in the Epson said it was outputting that same resolution (or receiving that resolution, however it works with e-shift). Atmos didn't work at the highest resolution, but Atmos did work on the second highest resolution option (3xxx by 2xxx). 



Issue #2. I downloaded the 4way advanced plug in on my new PC for the minidsp 2x4. After doing so and connecting to my 2x4 I have way less headroom. The Input meter with the old PC hardly ever got much above 70 unless I was cranking up the system pretty loud. Now the Input meter is in the -30's even on low to moderate volumes and the meter shows clipping if I turn it up at all. 

So, I tried turning the sub trim on my AVR down and turning up the outputs on the 2x4. This didn't do much, I still have way less headroom on the meters both on the Input and Outputs. I emailed minidsp, but figured I'd ask here in case anyone had this happen to them.


----------



## kyzer soze

Hey Carp my apologies if you've answered this already i haven't read through all the pages yet. Where did you get metallica album frame/plaque? 

Very cool!!!


----------



## Archaea

carp said:


> It's been great playing games on the new computer. Not so much me, but other people playing when they come over has been fun to watch. IMO Battlefield is better than Battlefront. Both are entertaining.
> 
> Issue #1. My X Box controller suddenly won't connect to the XBox USB wireless adapter. It connected fine the first week, but then all of a sudden it has problems. On Sunday it finally connected, but couldn't get it to connect at all yesterday. I plan on taking it back but I have a feeling that something else is going on because the light still blinks on it and when I hold the button and the button on the x-box the light on the x-box blinks 3 times like normal, but it doesn't control anything unlike the first week when it was fool proof.
> 
> Oh, this was pretty cool. In the settings on the Star Wars game I changed the resolution to as high as it would go (4000 something by 2000 something) and it worked. I didn't think it would since I have a 50 foot cable to my 5040 projector. Clarity was great, and the info in the Epson said it was outputting that same resolution (or receiving that resolution, however it works with e-shift). Atmos didn't work at the highest resolution, but Atmos did work on the second highest resolution option (3xxx by 2xxx).
> 
> 
> 
> Issue #2. I downloaded the 4way advanced plug in on my new PC for the minidsp 2x4. After doing so and connecting to my 2x4 I have way less headroom. The Input meter with the old PC hardly ever got much above 70 unless I was cranking up the system pretty loud. Now the Input meter is in the -30's even on low to moderate volumes and the meter shows clipping if I turn it up at all.
> 
> So, I tried turning the sub trim on my AVR down and turning up the outputs on the 2x4. This didn't do much, I still have way less headroom on the meters both on the Input and Outputs. I emailed minidsp, but figured I'd ask here in case anyone had this happen to them.


did you move the sound card over from your old PC?


----------



## carp

kyzer soze said:


> Hey Carp my apologies if you've answered this already i haven't read through all the pages yet. Where did you get metallica album frame/plaque?
> 
> Very cool!!!


Thanks! I made those a long time ago, 12 years or more I'm guessing. Ha, probably my first DIY project in the room - other than immediately tearing the wall out that separated the basement into 2 rooms when we bought the house.


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> did you move the sound card over from your old PC?


Yes. So, the only variable that is different is the computer and the download. Same audio sources, same AVR, same trim on the sub out on the AVR, same amp gain settings for subs. 

Only thing that is different is the computer and the download. 

Way less head room, especially on the input meter.


----------



## carp

Pretty frustrating. It makes no sense that I just lost that much sub headroom. 



Oh well, I'll try to figure it out later. Right now I'm mesmerized with how good 4K looks on youtube clips. I got a Roku today and just set it up. 

My picture doesn't do it justice as those of you with 4k or e-shift projectors know, but I posted the pic here to ask if I'm only getting 8 bit color and 4:2:0 because of my long HDMI run? I have a 50 foot cable. 

Also, I see all these issues with 4K players not working with long HDMI runs like I have, does that mean I would get the same picture quality I am seeing now with youtube or does it mean I will get no picture at all? 

So impressed.


----------



## carp

Makes me wonder if I should even get a 4K player and more expensive cables...

Has anyone compared the picture and sound on Vudu 4k/Atmos to a 4K disk?


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> Makes me wonder if I should even get a 4K player and more expensive cables...
> 
> Has anyone compared the picture and sound on Vudu 4k/Atmos to a 4K disk?


I did this comparison with my JVC X750R, but it was back in August. IMO, I thought the Vudu 4K picture matched what I get from a blu-ray disc on my system. The Atmos sound still didn't do it for me when compared to what is on the disc. I do think the sound quality of streaming is improving, but I still can hear enough of a difference to stick with physical media...

I owe a lot to @chadb for getting my video and audio dialed in which is why I feel this way.


----------



## sigma722

Is your current cable an active one? Like redmere? If you are getting 4k over that distance with an older passive cable, that is pretty impressive, imo. For people with existing passive cables that don't want to change/can't access their cables, there are two options that can supposedly upgrade them to full 4k. One is the hdfury integral, which seemingly sort of bumps the cable to an active one as a side effect, and then the other is the ethereal, which amplifies/regenerates/cleans the signal at the display side so that it can be read again by the display. They cost 200/400 respectively. Costly, yes. The other option would be to experiment with the newer passive cables (which are VERY luck-based on if they work), grab some newer active ones (cabernet from monoprice seem to be decent, but it's still not 100% for cables over 20ft), or try switching to something like hdmi-optical, which is also pricey.

It's so fun, there is a whole thread dedicated to it!

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/168-h...-support-4k-60hz-4-4-4-chroma-deep-color.html

One of the major reasons why I recently did a bit of a redesign on my room to have a projector room with all my equipment inside...

Edit: Speaking of! I have a 40ft cabernet active hdmi cable that I *THINK* will do what you want. I tested it a tiny bit at Grant's one night using menu signals from the roku. We probably should have done a bigger test with video, but if you can get away with a 40'er, we could test it out, and I give ya a deal on it


----------



## carp

COACH2369 said:


> I did this comparison with my JVC X750R, but it was back in August. IMO, I thought the Vudu 4K picture matched what I get from a blu-ray disc on my system. The Atmos sound still didn't do it for me when compared to what is on the disc. I do think the sound quality of streaming is improving, but I still can hear enough of a difference to stick with physical media...
> 
> I owe a lot to @chadb for getting my video and audio dialed in which is why I feel this way.



Interesting, I assumed it would be tougher for streaming to match video than audio. 

Hopefully sometime soon there will be a cheaper way to rent 4k disks. Looks like 8 bucks a disk right now with a short wait for everything.


----------



## carp

sigma722 said:


> Is your current cable an active one? Like redmere? If you are getting 4k over that distance with an older passive cable, that is pretty impressive, imo. For people with existing passive cables that don't want to change/can't access their cables, there are two options that can supposedly upgrade them to full 4k. One is the hdfury integral, which seemingly sort of bumps the cable to an active one as a side effect, and then the other is the ethereal, which amplifies/regenerates/cleans the signal at the display side so that it can be read again by the display. They cost 200/400 respectively. Costly, yes. The other option would be to experiment with the newer passive cables (which are VERY luck-based on if they work), grab some newer active ones (cabernet from monoprice seem to be decent, but it's still not 100% for cables over 20ft), or try switching to something like hdmi-optical, which is also pricey.
> 
> It's so fun, there is a whole thread dedicated to it!
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/168-h...-support-4k-60hz-4-4-4-chroma-deep-color.html
> 
> One of the major reasons why I recently did a bit of a redesign on my room to have a projector room with all my equipment inside...


No, it's not active. It's a flat cable, supposedly it was pretty good at the time back in 2011. Thanks for the link, I'll check out that thread. Hmm at those prices I might just stick with what I have for awhile.


----------



## sigma722

carp said:


> No, it's not active. It's a flat cable, supposedly it was pretty good at the time back in 2011. Thanks for the link, I'll check out that thread. Hmm at those prices I might just stick with what I have for awhile.


I edited my post before realizing you had quoted me 

Edit: Speaking of! I have a 40ft cabernet active hdmi cable that I *THINK* will do what you want. I tested it a tiny bit at Grant's one night using menu signals from the roku. We probably should have done a bigger test with video, but if you can get away with a 40'er, we could test it out, and I give ya a deal on it

edit edit: I should also mention that the main point of the hdfury, which you probably already know, is to strip out the hdr meta data, which will allow you to have the full color range, and brightness, minus the hdr, which makes it a bit dimmer. The good thing about it is it can strip hdr for all of your sources, wheras the oppo, which a lot of people are leaning towards, can just do it for it's own stuff. A lot of 4k PJ people are doing that, since their PJs don't hit the brights for true hdr anyway


----------



## carp

sigma722 said:


> I edited my post before realizing you had quoted me
> 
> Edit: Speaking of! I have a 40ft cabernet active hdmi cable that I *THINK* will do what you want. I tested it a tiny bit at Grant's one night using menu signals from the roku. We probably should have done a bigger test with video, but if you can get away with a 40'er, we could test it out, and I give ya a deal on it
> 
> edit edit: I should also mention that the main point of the hdfury, which you probably already know, is to strip out the hdr meta data, which will allow you to have the full color range, and brightness, minus the hdr, which makes it a bit dimmer. The good thing about it is it can strip hdr for all of your sources, wheras the oppo, which a lot of people are leaning towards, can just do it for it's own stuff. A lot of 4k PJ people are doing that, since their PJs don't hit the brights for true hdr anyway



40 feet would probably reach, that sounds like a plan!


----------



## desertdome

sigma722 said:


> The good thing about it is it can strip hdr for all of your sources, wheras the oppo, which a lot of people are leaning towards, can just do it for it's own stuff.


The OPPO 203 currently doesn't strip HDR properly, but plans to in a subsequent firmware release. They also plan to support HDR on the HDMI input. This means one can plug a ROKU into the OPPO and still strip HDR for pretty much all sources they would use. The exception would be something like HDR on PC gaming. However, with PC gaming you get whatever resolution you want and wide color gamut without HDR anyway so one can already "strip HDR" with PC gaming.


----------



## beastaudio

Im still rocking my passive cable with the integral and it has yet to cause any problems once I got everything situated properly. You aren't going to get full 4:4:4 tho with higher frame rate stuff:


----------



## carp

So all I was getting for those youtube clips was 8 bit 4:2:0, is that the lowest quality of 4k? If so, wow...

Ha, less than a month and 190 lamp hours!


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> So all I was getting for those youtube clips was 8 bit 4:2:0, is that the lowest quality of 4k? If so, wow...


UHD Blu-rays are 4:2:0 as well.


----------



## carp

desertdome said:


> UHD Blu-rays are 4:2:0 as well.


Really? What's all the fuss on these threads about 4:4:4? What content are people watching that's 4:4:4? 

So when I get a 4K player the only difference on my settings on the Epson from what I posted above will be 12 bit color?


----------



## lukeamdman




----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Really? What's all the fuss on these threads about 4:4:4? What content are people watching that's 4:4:4?
> 
> So when I get a 4K player the only difference on my settings on the Epson from what I posted above will be 12 bit color?


Shakespeare called it "Much ado about nothing" Not even 12 bit color will really be needed. NOW those movies shot in true 6K render will allow for some benefit versus the 2K (Find it funny we now refer to "1080p" as "2K" anyways) upscaled stuff, but the real gem anyways is the wide color gamut. THAT is where the truly special look comes into place.


----------



## carp

Hooked up the Oppo 203 today. So far, first impression of 4K disk (Miss Peregrens Home) is that... well, it looks just like the Blu Ray - which looks great, but I was expecting more. 

I must be doing something wrong. 

The 4K youtube videos using the Roku4 smoke this.


----------



## audioguy

I, too, purchased the new Oppo. I have yet to plug it in but, after reading the Oppo thread and the JVC thread, 4K is clearly not plug-n-play. Color setting on the two devices, strip meta-data, blah, blah, blah. One thing is for certain: my wife will never be able to watch 4K without me getting everything set up --- and that sucks!!

The only recent 4K I have watched was the Rose Bowl parade broadcast on HGTV - in both 1080P and 4K (no HDR). Prior to that, I thought the 1080P picture was incredible but when I switched to the 4K images, the 1080P images looked fuzzy by comparison and the colors were much better in 4K.

It was that experience that will get me to try and make 4K work. Other 4K stuff I had seen just didn't seem worth the effort [I sold my Sony 600ES to purchase the JVC RS500 JUST so I could get HDR].

I will work on getting it set up next week. Have fun enjoying your new 4K toys !! keep us posted.


----------



## d_c

Man, why can't this expensive crap just be plug and play? You would think that for the premium price that they could figure out a way to code something for an easy button - meaning no need to push a button.


----------



## carp

I don't know... I watched part of Jason Bourne, switching off back and forth between the 4k disk and the Blu Ray. I don't know if I could tell the difference in a blind test and that's on a 158" screen. 

I know this projector is capable of amazing images, again I can't say enough about how great those 4k youtube videos look. That was the wow I was expecting from 4K disks. 

I hope I'm "doing it wrong". 

Audioguy, I bet the Rose Bowl in 4k looked similar to what I saw on the youtube videos. It looked like real life, or as close as I've seen. 

Doug, you may want to wait for that Sony... or just hold off on 4K all together for awhile....


----------



## carp

I will say that blu ray's look better than on my old player.


----------



## sigma722

You should grab the life of pi uhd, and tell me if that is to the level of the youtube videos. That wowed me at derek's house originally.


----------



## audioguy

carp said:


> Doug, you may want to wait for that Sony... *or just hold off on 4K all together for awhile*....


For those looking for a technology that is well defined and well implemented, that is great advice. I can't remember in the 40+ years I have been at this A/V hobby, anything that seems to have this many moving parts: combinations and permutations of settings on the player along with settings on the display/projector -- and sometimes settings on external parts (e.g. the HD Fury Integral). And if that's not enough, throw in the variableness of the actual video content on the discs themselves. 

NOT, in my estimation, "ready for prime time".


----------



## COACH2369

I am like Audioguy and just want to turn the system on and start watching a movie. My wife prefers that as well.

The Panasonic/Fury combo is what currently allows me to do that. I have it set to strip the HDR and give me SDR 2020. That is how I watch all my 4K titles for the time being. The Oppo 203 was in my house for about a week and decided to send it back until they get all the buys squared away.

IMO, the Panasonic does as good of a job on standard Blu-ray as my old OPPO 103 did. I also can see a difference in the 4K vs Blu-ray picture in my room. It isn't a HUGE difference, but enough to justify the cost difference. 

I have had my projector calibrated by ChadB, which might help me out. Also, I just finished my velvet project and have Chad coming back out later this month to touch things up.

It will be nice to eventually have a player that doesn't require another device(Fury) to maximize how good these projectors are. At this point, I am okay with not having HDR engaged because I love what my JVC can do. Just my opinion.


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> Also, I just finished my velvet project


Photos?


----------



## carp

sigma722 said:


> You should grab the life of pi uhd, and tell me if that is to the level of the youtube videos. That wowed me at derek's house originally.


Good idea... 

Did you compare LOP to the blu ray? I remember that looking amazing too.


----------



## carp

COACH2369 said:


> I am like Audioguy and just want to turn the system on and start watching a movie. My wife prefers that as well.
> 
> The Panasonic/Fury combo is what currently allows me to do that. I have it set to strip the HDR and give me SDR 2020. That is how I watch all my 4K titles for the time being. The Oppo 203 was in my house for about a week and decided to send it back until they get all the buys squared away.
> 
> IMO, the Panasonic does as good of a job on standard Blu-ray as my old OPPO 103 did. I also can see a difference in the 4K vs Blu-ray picture in my room. It isn't a HUGE difference, but enough to justify the cost difference.
> 
> I have had my projector calibrated by ChadB, which might help me out. Also, I just finished my velvet project and have Chad coming back out later this month to touch things up.
> 
> It will be nice to eventually have a player that doesn't require another device(Fury) to maximize how good these projectors are. At this point, I am okay with not having HDR engaged because I love what my JVC can do. Just my opinion.



I'm seeing a lot of posts about the Panasonic player looking significantly better than any of the other 4K players. How did the Oppo compare to the Panasonic for 4K?


----------



## sigma722

carp said:


> Good idea...
> 
> Did you compare LOP to the blu ray? I remember that looking amazing too.


Of course not, that would be way too scientific... lol


----------



## carp

As usual I'm an idiot. I didn't have the settings right. I needed to change the HDR setting to "strip metadata" and change the other settings to 10 or 12 bit and 4:2:2.

Definitely a difference from blu ray and I feel so much better about buying the Oppo. Still not youtube 4K clarity but really, really good. 

So, I tried all the settings (8,10,12 bit and 4:2:2/4:4:4) out of curiosity, not because I have a clue what they all mean.  

I get no picture with 12 bit 4:4:4 and no picture with 10 bit 4:4:4.

However, I do get a picture with 12 bit 4:4:2 and 10 bit 4:4:2

Which setting should I use? My Epson says 12 bit 4:4:2 with both settings (both for 10 bit and 12 bit) as you can see below. I'm not sure I see a difference between setting the Oppo to 10 or 12 bit but I do see a difference from 8 bit.


----------



## carp

Oops, typos. I meat 4:2:2, not 4:4:2 since that's not a thing.


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> Photos?


I will attach a few to this post. Still have to put up the curtains, treatments and get the room put back together. Once that is all done, I am going to FINALLY start my own room thread with more before and after pictures. Plus I will have my brother in law take the pictures with a nicer camera than what my phone has. 



carp said:


> I'm seeing a lot of posts about the Panasonic player looking significantly better than any of the other 4K players. How did the Oppo compare to the Panasonic for 4K?


For me, I was most interested in how the SDR 2020 picture looked on the Oppo since that is what I am using with the Panasonic/Fury combo. Based on that, the Panasonic/Fury was the hands down winner. That is because it does a proper job of maintaining the Rec 2020 WCG whereas the Oppo was still reporting Rec 709. Oppo, of course, is aware of this and is working hard to correct it. In fact, the day that I sent my 203 back they released a new firmware that improved it quite a bit. From what I can gather it still isn't up to what the Panasonic/Fury gives yout...but it is getting close. 

The HDR picture seemed to be better with the Oppo, but right now I am a bigger fan of the SDR 2020 with my JVC X750R. 

Once the Oppo is able to give me the picture quality I am currently getting with the Panasonic/Fury combo , I will jump ship in a heart beat and purchase another 203. I would much rather have a single piece of equipment than having the Fury involved. Guess I just like to keep my setup as simple as possible.

Right now all I do is turn the player on, pop in the movie, select the right color profile(709 for blu-ray or 2020 for 4K) and enjoy the movie. With HDR, I feel like each movie requires some sort of tweak...


----------



## carp

Looking good! You are using quite a bit more than I did, but I may eventually do more.


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> Looking good! You are using quite a bit more than I did, but I may eventually do more.


Thank you... We did go a little nuts with it. lol

I ended up with about 8 yards extra and I toyed with the idea of going back even farther on the ceiling. I think what I have is enough and the room is REALLY dark with the lights on as is. 

We are discussing replacing the carpet in the room when we get the new seats(probably sometime after the Super Bowl)and once that is decided, I can figure out a good use for the rest of the velvet. If we get new carpet, I might put it on the ceiling. If we don't, then I might create a velvet area rug to go in front of the screen. Currently I have four black area rugs in front but they don't look as nice as I would like them to.


----------



## carp

It's tempting to just keep going with the velvet, haha. Hand out the black velvet jammies on movie nights.


----------



## COACH2369

I had planned on stopping where I stopped on the ceiling. Then my wife was like.. "Let's keep going"...So we did.

Velvet jammies.... I like it.


----------



## ellisr63

Your setup looks awesome! How long did it take you to figure out how low to have the screen and projector to miss the ceiling fan?


----------



## carp

ellisr63 said:


> Your setup looks awesome! How long did it take you to figure out how low to have the screen and projector to miss the ceiling fan?


Thanks! Woah... time to update the first post, I haven't had the ceiling fan for a long time now! 

It wasn't too bad, I did initially have the projector lower until one day when Jonathan @Archaea rammed his 6'4" head into the bottom of it and it knocked him over - and that takes a lot, he's not a small dude.  When that happened I decided to raise it and I just measured with a tape measure where the light from the projector hit the tape measure right where the blades of the fan were to have a good idea of how much I could raise it. 

The real trick was recently when I put in Atmos ceiling speakers and making sure they weren't in the path of the projector!


----------



## audioguy

@COACH2369 What technique did you use to attach the velvet to your ceiling?


----------



## audioguy

d_c said:


> Man, why can't this expensive crap just be plug and play? You would think that for the premium price that they could figure out a way to code something for an easy button - meaning no need to push a button.


I once worked for an audio manufacturer and Harry Pearson (founder of The Absolute Sound) was going to review our product. I went to his home to install it. While I was not necessarily a fan of his, he made a statement during that visit I have never forgotten, and I quote: _ "If it works the first time, it's not high end"_.

Pretty much sums it up in this particular case.


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> @COACH2369 What technique did you use to attach the velvet to your ceiling?


I hope I can explain this correctly so it makes sense. My wife and I did this together and she came up with the technique.

1. We started by stapling the "ribbon" part down where you couldn't see it. It is tucked under the screen wall. 
2. Then we stretched it as far/tight as we could and then stapled it down. 
3. For the next piece we overlapped the previous piece and then flipped it towards the untreated part of the ceiling. This left a clean, somewhat straight seam with no staples showing.
4. I used a 1 x 4 wrapped in velvet to create a border where the final piece stopped. 

Hopefully that made a little sense....It isn't the cleanest way of doing it and yes the seam isn't as straight as some would like it, but we are happy with how it turned out for now.


----------



## carp

COACH2369 said:


> I hope I can explain this correctly so it makes sense. My wife and I did this together and she came up with the technique.
> 
> 1. We started by stapling the "ribbon" part down where you couldn't see it. It is tucked under the screen wall.
> 2. Then we stretched it as far/tight as we could and then stapled it down.
> 3. For the next piece we overlapped the previous piece and then flipped it towards the untreated part of the ceiling. This left a clean, somewhat straight seam with no staples showing.
> 4. I used a 1 x 4 wrapped in velvet to create a border where the final piece stopped.
> 
> Hopefully that made a little sense....It isn't the cleanest way of doing it and yes the seam isn't as straight as some would like it, but we are happy with how it turned out for now.


Ohhh good idea on #4!! I'm going to steal that when I get around to it...


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> Ohhh good idea on #4!! I'm going to steal that when I get around to it...


We started out by painting the boards because the idea of buying more velvet wasn't real enticing. Then we discovered I had enough scrap velvet to do the boards around the ceiling, so we decided to knock those out. Once we found that I had over bought and had 9 extra yards, the decision was made to wrap all the wood with velvet. Used about 3 yards more in total and wrapped the rest of them.

It is hard to tell but I have velvet wrapped wood all around the room where the ceiling and walls meet. Turned out AWESOME and really gives it a clean look. 

Now I am figuring out if I want to put velvet down on the floor in front of the screen. We are also deciding if we want to put down new carpet. If we go with new carpet, I won't add velvet to the floor. Currently I have four black area rugs up front that do a good job, but velvet would do a better job.


----------



## audioguy

COACH2369 said:


> We started out by painting the boards because the idea of buying more velvet wasn't real enticing. Then we discovered I had enough scrap velvet to do the boards around the ceiling, so we decided to knock those out. Once we found that I had over bought and had 9 extra yards, the decision was made to wrap all the wood with velvet. Used about 3 yards more in total and wrapped the rest of them.
> 
> It is hard to tell but I have velvet wrapped wood all around the room where the ceiling and walls meet. Turned out AWESOME and really gives it a clean look.
> 
> Now I am figuring out if I want to put velvet down on the floor in front of the screen. We are also deciding if we want to put down new carpet. If we go with new carpet, I won't add velvet to the floor. Currently I have four black area rugs up front that do a good job, but velvet would do a better job.


With all of those potentially reflective surfaces covered in black, you must have a perceived contrast ratio of about 72 billion to 1 !!!

I will probably use velvet on the ceiling (at least the front half of the room) and MAYBE velvet on the floor in front of the screen (as long as I can figure out a way to not make it a tripping hazard) but on the side walls, (which are about 4.5 feet from the screen) will continue to use black GOM, since that is what my panels are covered with (as is the front wall).. and they really are not the issue.

Just one more thing to be obsessive about addicted to interested in with this hobby.


----------



## COACH2369

audioguy said:


> With all of those potentially reflective surfaces covered in black, you must have a perceived contrast ratio of about 72 billion to 1 !!!
> 
> I will probably use velvet on the ceiling (at least the front half of the room) and MAYBE velvet on the floor in front of the screen (as long as I can figure out a way to not make it a tripping hazard) but on the side walls, (which are about 4.5 feet from the screen) will continue to use black GOM, since that is what my panels are covered with (as is the front wall).. and they really are not the issue.
> 
> Just one more thing to be obsessive about addicted to interested in with this hobby.


The issue I am trying to resolve is how to incorporate some diffusion for my LCR speakers but keeping them as dark black as I can.... 

It seems like it never ends.


----------



## beastaudio

audioguy said:


> I, too, purchased the new Oppo. I have yet to plug it in but, after reading the Oppo thread and the JVC thread, 4K is clearly not plug-n-play. Color setting on the two devices, strip meta-data, blah, blah, blah. One thing is for certain: my wife will never be able to watch 4K without me getting everything set up --- and that sucks!!
> 
> The only recent 4K I have watched was the Rose Bowl parade broadcast on HGTV - in both 1080P and 4K (no HDR). Prior to that, I thought the 1080P picture was incredible but when I switched to the 4K images, the 1080P images looked fuzzy by comparison and the colors were much better in 4K.
> 
> It was that experience that will get me to try and make 4K work. Other 4K stuff I had seen just didn't seem worth the effort [I sold my Sony 600ES to purchase the JVC RS500 JUST so I could get HDR].
> 
> I will work on getting it set up next week. Have fun enjoying your new 4K toys !! keep us posted.


The Fury really does take a lot out of the equation when trying to watch UHD discs in BT2020. All it takes for me now is to fire everything up, select between either standard blu ray rec709 color profile in the JVC, or the "SDR 2020" profile I made for UHD discs and off we go. My wife has even seen two movies now and knows how to change it if she had to. It only gets tricky if you are needing to change the fury for HDR 2020, which just like Coach, I am perfectly fine with leaving it alone for the time being.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Heheh.

You'd think nobody in here has ever been an early adopter with ANY technology ever.


----------



## beastaudio

Scott Simonian said:


> Heheh.
> 
> You'd think nobody in here has ever been an early adopter with ANY technology ever.


Heh, I remember when atmos first came around. I think you and I were one of the very first to get it fully incorporated in our "circle" of guys around here. I was dang glad I did. I feel the same way every time I do something and it works right. Maybe some frustrations, but the juice always seems worth the "Squeeze."


----------



## NWCgrad

I remember when VHS first came out, who thought those big tapes with video on them would ever take off.

Actually, my dad was a football/basketball coach and he would bring home one of the early VHS machines to watch game film, the early machines were just plain huge.


----------



## Ladeback

NWCgrad said:


> I remember when VHS first came out, who thought those big tapes with video on them would ever take off.
> 
> Actually, my dad was a football/basketball coach and he would bring home one of the early VHS machines to watch game film, the early machines were just plain huge.


A friend of mine had a Beta video camera, because he was sure it was going to take off. That thing was big and the VHS ones were even bigger. Now they have Go Pro's the size of a small matchbox. I still have a working 4 head VCR and a Lazerdisk player.


----------



## carp

Jonathan sent me a link to these last week. I figured what the heck, they aren't very expensive so I'll try them out. 












This is the picture from Ebay. 




I plan on putting a wood border around the perimeter like in the ebay picture. I'll have to use a very small border for some of the areas because there isn't much room. 




I haven't had a chance to really try them out yet, so I don't know how effective they are. 

If I do like them I think I'll get some more for:

One more column to the left of the largest area of diffusors. 
Bottom half of the door at the top of the stairs.
Ceiling (not sure how much, the pics on ebay have the entire ceiling done I'm not going that far).
Front, and both sides of the pole.
I think I'll leave all of the side walls alone. 

I used an X-Acto knife to cut some of them to fit how I needed them to. They come white, you paint what ever color you want.



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sound-Diffu...868252?hash=item1c7a1df65c:g:R28AAOSwImRYdluL

http://mioculture.com/shop/wall-ceiling-tiles/acoustic-weave-paperforms-white


If anyone is thinking of trying these out, don't buy from ebay. You can buy direct from the website for the same price, the difference is you get free shipping if you order 2 or more boxes (12 12"x12" per box).


----------



## JDontee

Any subjective or objective improvement in sound?


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> Any subjective or objective improvement in sound?


Watching football today, I'll test them out tomorrow. I did already notice that I liked how music sounded using dolby surround with all speakers on, sounded less echo-y. I assume the bigger difference will be the back row.


----------



## d_c

Cool! I have been researching different ways of building diffusors and am waiting to get the new room finished and run some measurements. There is a program that tells you how deep and wide to do the panels in the diffusor for whatever frequency you want to treat. They look pretty labor intensive, so what you have here looks pretty enticing.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Nice. Now do the side walls and rest of the ceiling with that.


----------



## Archaea

time to update your first post....it's way outdated with your gear


----------



## Archaea

I like the new tiles Sheldon - they look nice.

How solid are they? Do they feel pretty durable?


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> time to update your first post....it's way outdated with your gear





Archaea said:


> I like the new tiles Sheldon - they look nice.
> 
> How solid are they? Do they feel pretty durable?



Yeah, I probably should. 

Thanks! I built some frames for the border, looks better that way:



The panels are stiff cardboard/paper so if you wanted to you could dent them with a punch. They are more durable than you would think with that description. I've accidentally ran my shoulder into a panel when walking back to the bathroom and no damage was done.


----------



## stitch1

Those look pretty cool, Carp.


----------



## jlpowell84

For that Price I am going to order a couple! Worst case wife can use them for interior decor of some sort...


----------



## carp

jlpowell84 said:


> For that Price I am going to order a couple! Worst case wife can use them for interior decor of some sort...


I may have said this already can't remember. The back wall in the pics is 2 boxes so 108 bucks.


----------



## carp

Got the new CD's in with the spacers and insulation back (finally) on the front wall from floor to ceiling. Also cut some more out of the front wall to get the exact same distance between LCR. I was surprised to find that I didn't get electrocuted.


----------



## JDontee

Well....how do they sound?


----------



## carp

I don't know yet, I'll do some listening to music and movie watching tonight and tomorrow.


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> Got the new CD's in with the spacers and insulation back (finally) on the front wall from floor to ceiling. Also cut some more out of the front wall to get the exact same distance between LCR. I was surprised to find that I didn't get electrocuted.


Looks like you are getting things set up for a while..

I am going to do some critical listening tonight or tomorrow, depending on how long everything takes with the calibration.

We did listen some last night and the results were really good. Thanks for the being the final one to "push" me over the edge to get the upgraded CD's.. lol


----------



## dlbeck

Are you itchy?


----------



## Frohlich

carp said:


> Got the new CD's in with the spacers and insulation back (finally) on the front wall from floor to ceiling. Also cut some more out of the front wall to get the exact same distance between LCR. *I was surprised to find that I didn't get electrocuted. *


----------



## raynist

dlbeck said:


> Are you itchy?


First thing that came to mind when I saw that picture!


----------



## jlpowell84

carp said:


> I don't know yet, I'll do some listening to music and movie watching tonight and tomorrow.


Nice, I have been watching a couple casual movies with no subs 4722's (just L&R between 50" tv) and have been digging the bass. My monstrous subs are just plopped in so not optimized and the Crest PL 7.5 fan is loud adding that to the noise floor. More or less fun to run an insane dubstep demo for the raw power display then turn them back off. So Large it has been and aside from the noise floor I feel there is some bass I am getting from Large 4722's alone vs small 4722's and subs. Seems like in the 60-80hz region so maybe xover issues. I'm not smart enough to know exactly but it just sounds more complete.

My 2453H-SL's hopefully will arrive Monday still as I am off work but not Tuesday. They were scheduled for an shipping update from UPS yesterday at 5pm Pacific but nothing yet. Left Jacksonville FL Tuesday Morning at 8am for the 'Long Haul.'




raynist said:


> First thing that came to mind when I saw that picture!


Yep!


----------



## carp

No itching, long sleeves and a mask made it pretty easy. 

I ran YPAO and it said my right rear ceiling speaker was out of phase (it doesn't tell you this until you finish all the measurements). I was frustrated because MCACC often said the same thing when it wasn't true. Well, sure enough I had the wired switched on the receiver so YPAO was right. 

In the manual it says to just switch the wires if this happens but doesn't say anything about re-running YPAO. 

Do I need to run YPAO again?


----------



## carp

Ha, it set all my speakers to large except for the rear surrounds which it crossed at 80hz.


----------



## jlpowell84

Seems like you would need to run again but I don't know YPAO...

So how are you liking the SCS8? I didn't realize you had got several of them too until I finished my final leg of catching up on the 4722 thread. I had asked on the 4722 thread so disregard but how do you like them compared to the Volt 10's? With that 315 per I might need to grab some before Samsung does something or prices skyrocket.


----------



## carp

jlpowell84 said:


> Seems like you would need to run again but I don't know YPAO...
> 
> So how are you liking the SCS8? I didn't realize you had got several of them too until I finished my final leg of catching up on the 4722 thread. I had asked on the 4722 thread so disregard but how do you like them compared to the Volt 10's? With that 315 per I might need to grab some before Samsung does something or prices skyrocket.


I ran it again to be safe. Of course I forgot to turn back on the AVR that powers the rear overheads (turned it off when I switched the - and + speaker wires) so I had to run it again... and again.  

I'll comment on the 4722 thread too, in a nutshell the Volt 10's have a diffuse/echo-y sound to them at times. I liked them for surrounds but that bugged me at times. I don't get any of that from the scs8's.


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> Well....how do they sound?


Sounds great. I think the CD upgrade makes a bigger difference than the insulation. The insulation seems to help more for movies than music, and it helps more for using the upmixer with all the speakers on for music more than for 2 channel.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> I ran YPAO and it said my right rear ceiling speaker was out of phase (it doesn't tell you this until you finish all the measurements). I was frustrated because MCACC often said the same thing when it wasn't true. Well, sure enough I had the wired switched on the receiver so YPAO was right.
> 
> In the manual it says to just switch the wires if this happens but doesn't say anything about re-running YPAO.
> 
> Do I need to run YPAO again?


You shouldn't but if you are unsure then re-run YPAO. 

I did the same thing when I converted my room over to how it is now and started using the JBL 8330 surrounds instead of my Emotiva surrounds. YPAO kept saying my four surrounds were out of phase. "Like...whatever, Yamaha." Lol, nope. Totally forgot that JBL used BLACK as the POSITIVE on them like their stuff from the era. Happens to us all.


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> You shouldn't but if you are unsure then re-run YPAO.
> 
> I did the same thing when I converted my room over to how it is now and started using the JBL 8330 surrounds instead of my Emotiva surrounds. YPAO kept saying my four surrounds were out of phase. "Like...whatever, Yamaha." Lol, nope. Totally forgot that JBL used BLACK as the POSITIVE on them like their stuff from the era. Happens to us all.


I ran it again to be sure. It was strangely satisfying to have YPAO be right.


----------



## beastaudio

jlpowell84 said:


> and the Crest PL 7.5 fan is loud adding that to the noise floor.


Dude, a fan mod on the 7.5 seriously only takes like 7.5 minutes and then it is dead silent, at all times, period.


----------



## jlpowell84

beastaudio said:


> Dude, a fan mod on the 7.5 seriously only takes like 7.5 minutes and then it is dead silent, at all times, period.



Yea I turtelly forgot about that! Can you link me to where you did yours?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## beastaudio

jlpowell84 said:


> Yea I turtelly forgot about that! Can you link me to where you did yours?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


BAM: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3110SB-05W-B20-E00/P14751-ND/2615564

Get two of those and just cut the plugs off the stock fans and heat shrink them onto the new fans after cutting off some slack. Disconnect the smaller fan on the side of the board and electric tape the connector to the fan to secure it and button 'er back up!


----------



## desertdome

It looks like Carp's Basement has its own little fan club.


----------



## jlpowell84

Thanks Beast! You are a real Pal 
@carp have you noticed any improvements with your cheaper diffusion? I am going to order a little diffusion and would prefer these for cost but will do the GIK ones Scott uses if they are better. Not too much more, about double I think...


----------



## carp

I don't know... they aren't very deep so who knows how much they help. A friend was over and said they probably only diffuse down to 1k or something like that? 

I feel like they help but it could be placebo.


----------



## COACH2369

jlpowell84 said:


> Thanks Beast! You are a real Pal
> 
> @carp have you noticed any improvements with your cheaper diffusion? I am going to order a little diffusion and would prefer these for cost but will do the GIK ones Scott uses if they are better. Not too much more, about double I think...





Molon_Labe said:


> Does that mean the panel is strong or you need to hit the gym a little more often  Those panels look great man. I have been looking for some diffusion for my ceiling.


I just added diffusion to my room in two different products. On the ceiling I used a funky looking panel(I will attach a picture) and then for the side walls I used the GIK Alpha diffusion/absor. combo panels. The combo panels are covered in GOM fabric... 

Not sure which ones are "better", but the combo panels seem to be the new "cool" thing to do.


----------



## Scott Simonian

For teh cheap diffusion, I use GIK: http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-gridfusor/

Cheap, effective and lightweight.


----------



## beastaudio

Scott Simonian said:


> For teh cheap diffusion, I use GIK: http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-gridfusor/
> 
> Cheap, effective and lightweight.


"Cheap" He got jokes.....

Haha, 4 panels for $214. So it's $428 for a standard 4x8 ceiling diffusion grid, $428 more for rear wall treatment, and $428 more for hitting each side wall at two different spots for diffusion with a 2x4 standard sized panel...

I just bought a new 55" OLED for the upstairs setup for a few more benny's and I really like that idea a whole lot better....


----------



## Scott Simonian

Yup. Good, proper diffusion isn't inexpensive, Brandon. Compared to other products that are as good, it is cheap.

Sorry. You want to cheap out, go DIY.

These work well and are lightweight. They are able to be cut up and reshaped. They are also much deeper than the stuff you guys have been posting. A more effective product.


A 55" OLED ain't gonna do s**t for me in my HT room, bud.  Enjoy.


----------



## beastaudio

Scott Simonian said:


> Yup. Good, proper diffusion isn't inexpensive, Brandon. Compared to other products that are as good, it is cheap.
> 
> Sorry. You want to cheap out, go DIY.
> 
> These work well and are lightweight. They are able to be cut up and reshaped. They are also much deeper than the stuff you guys have been posting. A more effective product.
> 
> 
> A 55" OLED ain't gonna do s**t for me in my HT room, bud.  Enjoy.


Sorry if I came off abrasive in my post, I fully know the values of good room treatments. As usual, I am just joking around  

I've looked long and hard at ways to convert some of my existing panels to combo panels but at only 2" deep, it doesn't make a ton of sense unless I go with a design akin to the alpha panels. 6" absolutely won't work on the side walls with how narrow my walkways already are as I'm sure you remember.

Also, a 55" OLED aint gonna do nothing in my HT either, but it sure is nice when I have to sit down and watch "The Bachelor" with the wife.  As many "TV" hours as we log on that upstairs TV, I don't know why I didn't do it sooner.


----------



## Scott Simonian

beastaudio said:


> Sorry if I came off abrasive in my post, I fully know the values of good room treatments. As usual, I am just joking around
> 
> I've looked long and hard at ways to convert some of my existing panels to combo panels but at only 2" deep, it doesn't make a ton of sense unless I go with a design akin to the alpha panels. 6" absolutely won't work on the side walls with how narrow my walkways already are as I'm sure you remember.
> 
> Also, a 55" OLED aint gonna do nothing in my HT either, but it sure is nice when I have to sit down and watch "The Bachelor" with the wife.  As many "TV" hours as we log on that upstairs TV, I don't know why I didn't do it sooner.


Oh dude....I knew you were joking around. I just have to be clear for other people who are interested. We have to remember lots of people lurk and dont post here.

Took me for f**k ever to find something like these and I like recommending them because of all the checks the tick off regarding features. You're right, a 2" deep panel will be pretty useless. That was one of things that caught my eye. That and how lightweight these are. Most deep QRD panels are made of some timber are both heavy and expensive. More effective? Maybe...definitely if they are physically larger.


That's the crum part of doing good acoustic treatment, it adds up quickly the more area you treat and it's not as fun to talk about as gear like amps and speakers and such. However, the results are always are part of the system. Like most people know 50% of the sound is the room. Gotta treat the room as well as we treat our choices for other gear.


----------



## carp

My panels are 2" deep.


----------



## Luke Kamp

carp said:


> I don't know... they aren't very deep so who knows how much they help. A friend was over and said they probably only diffuse down to 1k or something like that?
> 
> I feel like they help but it could be placebo.


That was me and I don't know much about diffusion as my room is too small and never really dug into it. My 1000 Hz comment was pretty much a guess, it got me thinking about frequency wavelengths and how 1000 Hz has a wavelength of 13.5 in and had read here and remembered Gilford's 1/7th wavelength estimate for depth requirement. Since 1/7th of 13.5 is a little less than 2 I guessed it was around there.

https://books.google.com/books?id=t...e&q=floyd toole sound diffusion depth&f=false


It got me thinking so I looked around and found this Calculate a Two-Dimensional Primitive Root Diffuser.

http://www.oliverprime.com/prd/

If I put 1000 Hz as the low cutoff it comes up with 17 cm (6.7") as the largest depth. A low cutoff of 3000 Hz has a maximum depth of 6 cm (2.35"). These are different than yours and I have no idea the reflective/absorptive properties of the material yours are made from, so I am still just guessing. Maybe someone with more knowledge of diffusion can weigh in.


----------



## jlpowell84

Those GIK diffusor's claim 600-5,000 hz range...

I want to buy a few pieces, at least I will always have them despite not having a theater room currently. Will make future easier. Baby steps #whataboutbob 

What about these? Graphs seems to show effective diffusion down low as well...
http://www.lunchboxaudio.com/vicoustic-multifuser-dc2-diffusion-panel/
http://www.lunchboxaudio.com/vicoustic-wavewood-acoustic-wall-ceiling-panel/

Vicoustic is a little more but not stupid money...

Also how effective are the DIY ones that look like the DC2? I see people make them out of wood. Seems like foam would not be too hard to do...


----------



## carp

Luke Kamp said:


> That was me and I don't know much about diffusion as my room is too small and never really dug into it. My 1000 Hz comment was pretty much a guess, it got me thinking about frequency wavelengths and how 1000 Hz has a wavelength of 13.5 in and had read here and remembered Gilford's 1/7th wavelength estimate for depth requirement. Since 1/7th of 13.5 is a little less than 2 I guessed it was around there.
> 
> https://books.google.com/books?id=t...e&q=floyd toole sound diffusion depth&f=false
> 
> 
> It got me thinking so I looked around and found this Calculate a Two-Dimensional Primitive Root Diffuser.
> 
> http://www.oliverprime.com/prd/
> 
> 
> If I put 1000 Hz as the low cutoff it comes up with 17 cm (6.7") as the largest depth. A low cutoff of 3000 Hz has a maximum depth of 6 cm (2.35"). These are different than yours and I have no idea the reflective/absorptive properties of the material yours are made from, so I am still just guessing. Maybe someone with more knowledge of diffusion can weigh in.



Cool, thanks for the link. I think someday I'll dive into it and re-do the back wall with something more effective. However for the short term I'm done with messing with stuff for awhile. Time to enjoy some actual content. I remember when you said years ago that we should be more patient with our rooms and think of it as a life time hobby that doesn't need to be figured out all at once. I wish I would follow that advice every once in a while.


----------



## carp

Oh yeah... my 2nd Crowson gets here today. 

I wouldn't get one but it a big reason I haven't hooked up my first Crowson yet since I got new carpet is because on my main LP seat the right arm rest is actually connected to the chair next to it. So when I use the Crowson I get all the shake in the seat and the left arm but not the right. So, now both seats will have their own and I also will get to try out the new isolators.


----------



## carp

My next plan is to do some A/B of blu ray vs. 4k disks. I've only gone back and forth with Deadpool and Miss Peregrins Home and to my eyes both of those had an easily seen difference in sharpness with the 4K disk. 

Of the other 4k disks I've watched recently either there is an improvement with 4K OR all these new movies look better on blu ray than any disks I've seen in the past. I say that because I haven't watched the blu ray's yet on these other movies. I have The Revenant, The Shallows, Lucy, and The Accountant (haven't watched the 4k of The Accountant yet either though).


----------



## carp

jlpowell84 said:


> Those GIK diffusor's claim 600-5,000 hz range...
> 
> I want to buy a few pieces, at least I will always have them despite not having a theater room currently. Will make future easier. Baby steps #whataboutbob
> 
> What about these? Graphs seems to show effective diffusion down low as well...
> http://www.lunchboxaudio.com/vicoustic-multifuser-dc2-diffusion-panel/
> http://www.lunchboxaudio.com/vicoustic-wavewood-acoustic-wall-ceiling-panel/
> 
> Vicoustic is a little more but not stupid money...
> 
> Also how effective are the DIY ones that look like the DC2? I see people make them out of wood. Seems like foam would not be too hard to do...


All I know is the wood panels take so long you basically have to quit your job. A friend made a 2x2 wood diffusion panel and quit right there because it took so long.


----------



## Archaea

carp said:


> All I know is the wood panels take so long you basically have to quit your job. A friend made a 2x2 wood diffusion panel and quit right there because it took so long.


meh, probably depends on skill level.
I heard @d_c made a 4'x12' wood diffusion panel in 15 minutes, and that included cutting down the tree used for the project, and full glue drying time.


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> meh, probably depends on skill level.
> I heard @d_c made a 4'x12' wood diffusion panel in 15 minutes, and that included cutting down the tree used for the project, and full glue drying time.


Knocked out a couple of subs and knocked back a couple of beers during that time too.


----------



## d_c

Then I slammed a revolving door while popping a wheelie on a unicycle


----------



## desertdome

d_c said:


> Then I slammed a revolving door while *popping a wheelie on a unicycle*


This is pretty close :


----------



## JDontee

carp said:


> All I know is the wood panels take so long you basically have to quit your job. A friend made a 2x2 wood diffusion panel and quit right there because it took so long.


Ha! Carp, you beat me to it. And I don't think I'm the friend, so it's nice to know I wasn't the only one. It took me and friend hours to make a 2X2. I have no idea how much it helped (if any), but it looks cool.... I stained it instead of painting it. It's on the back wall and looks like art. I'd love to find some modestly priced diffusers, so I was hoping the ones you bought made a real difference. I definitely think my room needs more treatments, but I'm not ready to drop some serious cash on getting the entire room treated (design and actual treatments). So until then, I'll just rely on impulse filters at the MLP.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> My panels are 2" deep.



There's always next season, Timmy. 




carp said:


> My next plan is to do some A/B of blu ray vs. 4k disks. I've only gone back and forth with Deadpool and Miss Peregrins Home and to my eyes both of those had an easily seen difference in sharpness with the 4K disk.
> 
> Of the other 4k disks I've watched recently either there is an improvement with 4K OR all these new movies look better on blu ray than any disks I've seen in the past. I say that because I haven't watched the blu ray's yet on these other movies. I have The Revenant, The Shallows, Lucy, and The Accountant (haven't watched the 4k of The Accountant yet either though).


You do know that so far the vast majority of UHD releases are upconverted 2K, right? Well, upconverted 2K with HDR.


----------



## Scott Simonian

jlpowell84 said:


> Those GIK diffusor's claim 600-5,000 hz range...
> 
> I want to buy a few pieces, at least I will always have them despite not having a theater room currently. Will make future easier. Baby steps #whataboutbob
> 
> What about these? Graphs seems to show effective diffusion down low as well...
> http://www.lunchboxaudio.com/vicoustic-multifuser-dc2-diffusion-panel/
> http://www.lunchboxaudio.com/vicoustic-wavewood-acoustic-wall-ceiling-panel/
> 
> Vicoustic is a little more but not stupid money...
> 
> Also how effective are the DIY ones that look like the DC2? I see people make them out of wood. Seems like foam would not be too hard to do...



Those 'Skyline' type diffusors are really good and are quite common because. 

It is relatively easy to make them but unless made out of foam they might end up pretty heavy depending on how large they are.

Here's a YT vid I liked of the process:







Now that would be one f**king heavy-ass diffusor and look how much work it takes for just one. I was going to do just this but I just couldn't bother.


----------



## JDontee

Oh they are easy to make, just very time consuming.


----------



## JDontee

Basically, Doug is Bill Brasky.


----------



## jlpowell84

Archaea said:


> meh, probably depends on skill level.
> I heard @d_c made a 4'x12' wood diffusion panel in 15 minutes, and that included cutting down the tree used for the project, and full glue drying time.




Yeah I hear you guys and see how that could take a long time... but I also have a Dewalt chop saw double bevel... I think if I had a plan mapped out I could do it fairly quickly. How do they secure them to the baseboard glue or Brad nail from the other side?

I am interested though on anyone's opinions about those Vicoustics panels I linked. I turn 33 on Sunday and my wife wanted me to buy a nice pair of Bluetooth earbuds but after research no such thing exists yet... so I figured I put a couple hundred towards a couple diffusion panels... then perhaps make a few. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ladeback

jlpowell84 said:


> Yeah I hear you guys and see how that could take a long time... but I also have a Dewalt chop saw double bevel... I think if I had a plan mapped out I could do it fairly quickly. How do they secure them to the baseboard glue or Brad nail from the other side?
> 
> I am interested though on anyone's opinions about those Vicoustics panels I linked. I turn 33 on Sunday and my wife wanted me to buy a nice pair of Bluetooth earbuds but after research no such thing exists yet... so I figured I put a couple hundred towards a couple diffusion panels... then perhaps make a few.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bluetooth earbuds do exist just not sure how good they are yet. I found these on line.

https://jet.com/product/detail/2313...EmyLur5k65sGE5zpXeOmqOfUjM9ZtJTQMQaAuub8P8HAQ

And this for iPhons. I have been seeing the new commercial for these over the last few weeks or so.

http://www.apple.com/shop/product/M...=aos-us-kwgo-pla-btb--slid--product-MMEF2AM/A


----------



## d_c

Check this for an easy to build, light qrd. I'm making these once I get the room together - if I need them 

http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/qrdude.htm


----------



## jlpowell84

Ladeback said:


> Bluetooth earbuds do exist just not sure how good they are yet. I found these on line.
> 
> 
> 
> https://jet.com/product/detail/2313...EmyLur5k65sGE5zpXeOmqOfUjM9ZtJTQMQaAuub8P8HAQ
> 
> 
> 
> And this for iPhons. I have been seeing the new commercial for these over the last few weeks or so.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.apple.com/shop/product/M...=aos-us-kwgo-pla-btb--slid--product-MMEF2AM/A




Yes the fireflies were number one on my list. Look at the reviews on Amazon they're horrible. Even after they hopefully got the left side cutting out fixed up the battery life apparently for some people it's only just over an hour. I would rather buy two pairs of the cheap ones on Amazon that look like Apple earbuds just Bluetooth and wired between the two buds and rotate those two on a charges.


https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00YXRCA04/
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> There's always next season, Timmy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do know that so far the vast majority of UHD releases are upconverted 2K, right? Well, upconverted 2K with HDR.



Yes, very. I check everything on real or fake 4k and a couple other sites that do the same thing before getting a disk. 

So, the only movies I've done an A/B comparison are mastered in 4K (Deadpool and Miss Perigrens Home). The disks I bought are also true 4K (The Revenant, Lucy, X-Men Apocalypse). 

The only disk I have that is mastered in 2K is The Shallows. There are quite a few scenes in it that look better than any blu ray I have seen in my room, so my point was that either these new movies just look better or 4K (even if it's 2K in this case) can make a difference. I haven't compared it to the blu ray yet, so maybe the blu ray looks just as good. 

I may change my tune on all this after comparing the rest of my 4k disks with the blu rays since I've only compared the 2 movies.


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> Ha! Carp, you beat me to it. And I don't think I'm the friend, so it's nice to know I wasn't the only one. It took me and friend hours to make a 2X2. I have no idea how much it helped (if any), but it looks cool.... I stained it instead of painting it. It's on the back wall and looks like art. I'd love to find some modestly priced diffusers, so I was hoping the ones you bought made a real difference. I definitely think my room needs more treatments, but I'm not ready to drop some serious cash on getting the entire room treated (design and actual treatments). So until then, I'll just rely on impulse filters at the MLP.


Haha, hey JD - you are indeed the friend.  You told me about that a long time ago.


----------



## jlpowell84

Scott Simonian said:


> Those 'Skyline' type diffusors are really good and are quite common because.
> 
> It is relatively easy to make them but unless made out of foam they might end up pretty heavy depending on how large they are.
> 
> Here's a YT vid I liked of the process:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlYspQ40pWk
> 
> 
> Now that would be one f**king heavy-ass diffusor and look how much work it takes for just one. I was going to do just this but I just couldn't bother.


Somehow I missed this on iPhone this morning, Tapatalk sucks!

I would look for some kind of foam if I made some DIY. 

Most likely I will buy the four pack of those GIK to start out. I just like the look of a couple of the Vicoustics ones...


----------



## JDontee

carp said:


> Haha, hey JD - you are indeed the friend.  You told me about that a long time ago.


Dammit. Misery loves company.


----------



## carp

Well, I have to eat a little crow here. This weekend I went back and forth between the blu ray and 4K disk for Lucy. I still think I can tell but it's a lot closer than I thought. Close enough that I admit it could be placebo. Scott, when you are over we will have to do a blind test! 

I don't get it. Why isn't there a bigger difference?

Yes, I understand that it's "just" an e-shift projector. However, I have read many times that people can't tell the difference between a 4k projector and an e-shift projector. 

So what gives.... my eyes at the MLP are 10 feet from 158 inches and although I can see a difference I'm not confident enough that I could pass a blind test.. wow.

I remember seeing this years ago and daydreaming about the day I'd have better than 1080p and I'd be close enough with a big enough screen to get all the benefits and it would be like going from dvd to blu ray. Not. Even. Close. 


http://rob-the.geek.nz/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/resolution_chart.png









*HOWEVER.... I should not be complaining.* 1080p on an eshift machine is a big, big upgrade over 1080p on a non eshift projector. At least it was for me. These newer blu rays (at least most of them) look so good that it seems like everything is 4K anyway. I really think improvements are going to be few and far between going forward until the day we have VR home theaters or something like that.


----------



## Archaea

I know little about this - and I'm not the guy to ask - because I'm never had my hands on a 4k or even eshift projector but If I had to guess I'd say because you are displaying 4k content on a e-shift projector which isn't really capable of displaying 4k content.


It's not truly 4K material on 3840x2160 pixels -- it's 4K content on 1920x1080 pixels with some electronic trickery going on. As to how much difference there is between a true 4K projector and the electronic trickery - I've no idea -- never seen it.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Well, I have to eat a little crow here. This weekend I went back and forth between the blu ray and 4K disk for Lucy. I still think I can tell but it's a lot closer than I thought. Close enough that I admit it could be placebo. Scott, when you are over we will have to do a blind test!
> 
> I don't get it. Why isn't there a bigger difference?
> 
> Yes, I understand that it's "just" an e-shift projector. However, I have read many times that people can't tell the difference between a 4k projector and an e-shift projector.
> 
> So what gives.... my eyes at the MLP are 10 feet from 158 inches and although I can see a difference I'm not confident enough that I could pass a blind test.. wow.
> 
> I remember seeing this years ago and daydreaming about the day I'd have better than 1080p and I'd be close enough with a big enough screen to get all the benefits and it would be like going from dvd to blu ray. Not. Even. Close.
> 
> 
> http://rob-the.geek.nz/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/resolution_chart.png
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *HOWEVER.... I should not be complaining.* 1080p on an eshift machine is a big, big upgrade over 1080p on a non eshift projector. At least it was for me. These newer blu rays (at least most of them) look so good that it seems like everything is 4K anyway. I really think improvements are going to be few and far between going forward until the day we have VR home theaters or something like that.


Exactly what Jon said, but also, and as I have mentioned before, the real benefit of the new UHD source discs are the added wide color gamut and (to a certain extent) HDR. Oh yea, and those few discs that only have the atmos or DTS:X encoding ONLY on the 4k disc.

The actual pixel structure is not going to be all that evident even on 158"


----------



## carp

I guess the issue could be that these people that say e shift looks just like true 4K could be wrong. 

Bottom line is that 1080p can look AMAZING .


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> Well, I have to eat a little crow here. This weekend I went back and forth between the blu ray and 4K disk for Lucy. I still think I can tell but it's a lot closer than I thought. Close enough that I admit it could be placebo. Scott, when you are over we will have to do a blind test!


Well, I went back and checked on the UHD movies that dlbeck and I compared to the Blu-rays. I realized these both were done with a 2K digital intermediate. Therefore, they were upscaled to 4K for the UHD disc. Upscaling of the Blu-ray with madVR was just as good or better. So, we weren't using very valid content to compare the difference that 4k resolution makes. 



Archaea said:


> I know little about this - and I'm not the guy to ask - because I'm never had my hands on a 4k or even eshift projector but If I had to guess I'd say because you are displaying 4k content on a e-shift projector which isn't really capable of displaying 4k content.
> 
> It's not truly 4K material on 3840x2160 pixels -- it's 4K content on 1920x1080 pixels with some electronic trickery going on. As to how much difference there is between a true 4K projector and the electronic trickery - I've no idea -- never seen it.


Many have viewed content on a DLP display and consider it a valid display type. A DLP only shows red, green, blue, cyan, magenta, or yellow at once, but our eye blends the colors to visually interpret a single colored pixel. Is this electronic trickery? Yes, but it produces the image. Actually, all display systems are electronic trickery of some form or another. With e-Shift, two different sets of 1920 x 1080 pixels are displayed sequentially. Like DPL, our eye blends the pixels to visually interpret a 4K image. E-Shift can be more accurate to the original signal when it receives 4K vs 2K since the algorithm doesn't have to resize.

The way a digital camera captures an image is very similar to how e-Shift reproduces the image. Digital cameras, including digital video cameras, use a color matrix and a Bayer Filter to recreate the RGB combination for each pixel. This video explains how it works:


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> Bottom line is that 1080p can look AMAZING .


THIS.

Remember this when you go see a movie at the cinema. That's usually a 2K image on that large screen, not actual 4K. 


Give it some time @carp . There are many factors at play at can give you the impression of "what's the big deal?" when you compare one single title in one room with one projection system. But I can't speak for you and what you saw so yes, I would be very interested in comparing them next weekend.


----------



## stitch1

I am hoping you guys can make me a believer of both 4K and Atmos. So far, I am just not sold on the upgrades. At least not yet. I normally love being an early adopter but there just seems to be too many cons to the current tech. However, I am fully open to being impressed. Jonathan already has promised me some giddy inducing clips on that JVC he's running.


----------



## jsgrise

stitch1 said:


> I am hoping you guys can make me a believer of both 4K and Atmos. So far, I am just not sold on the upgrades. At least not yet. I normally love being an early adopter but there just seems to be too many cons to the current tech. However, I am fully open to being impressed. Jonathan already has promised me some giddy inducing clips on that JVC he's running.


I am about to jump to Atmos but this will require a lot of pain in the a** work and I would really like to have Immersive Audio honest feed back over a traditional setup.


----------



## Scott Simonian

stitch1 said:


> I am hoping you guys can make me a believer of both 4K and Atmos. So far, I am just not sold on the upgrades. At least not yet. I normally love being an early adopter but there just seems to be too many cons to the current tech. However, I am fully open to being impressed. Jonathan already has promised me some giddy inducing clips on that JVC he's running.





jsgrise said:


> I am about to jump to Atmos but this will require a lot of pain in the a** work and I would really like to have Immersive Audio honest feed back over a traditional setup.



How important is an immersive surround sound experience to you?

I get the feeling that a good portion of people who have Atmos got it simply because they thought they had to. Atmos isn't for every body. Nor is 7.1 sound. 5.1 is more than adequate for the vast majority of people.

For me, the surround sound experience is second only to a good picture (sometimes even that I don't care) when I watch a movie. Sound is a HUGE deal for me. Most people think of me as a basshead but surround sound always comes first for me. I was doing 6.1 before most people knew about it (no real hardware available) and have had 7.1 for a long time before Blu-ray. Back then I was waiting for discrete sound to speaker that could be mounted on the ceiling. There never was any real support for this other than some obscure mentions not applicable for home consumer use.

But now we do. We have Atmos and DTS:X delivering the same excellent 7.1 experience with the addition of up to four discrete speaker locations on the walls or ceiling. And in the future these titles can expand beyond 7.1.4 layout that we are currently limited to.

The immersive audio difference is that there is now an actual 3D bubble of sound instead of a flat ring of sound. We have separation of things that are around of us and/or above us in every direction. 7.1 can't really do this with stability. Sometimes you could get a vague "oh! that sounds like it was above me" moments in some titles (Master&Commander) but now you really can hear things above because they are above you. Simply having your surrounds in the ceiling does not do the same thing. Everything would sound like it is above you. Things that should image around you would image above you. With immersive audio, you get it all.

So if the question is: is it worth it?

Yes!

But if the question is: is it going to be worth it to _me_?

Then....you can only ask yourself.


----------



## carp

stitch1 said:


> I am hoping you guys can make me a believer of both 4K and Atmos. So far, I am just not sold on the upgrades. At least not yet. I normally love being an early adopter but there just seems to be too many cons to the current tech. However, I am fully open to being impressed. Jonathan already has promised me some giddy inducing clips on that JVC he's running.



If I had to pick between 4K and Atmos it would be Atmos. I do think the John Wick 4K disk looks better, again I'll need to do some more A/B but I've seen the blu ray enough  that I think I should be able to tell. 

That's another thing we could do on Sunday, compare blu ray and 4K.


----------



## jsgrise

Scott Simonian said:


> How important is an immersive surround sound experience to you?
> 
> I get the feeling that a good portion of people who have Atmos got it simply because they thought they had to. Atmos isn't for every body. Nor is 7.1 sound. 5.1 is more than adequate for the vast majority of people.
> 
> For me, the surround sound experience is second only to a good picture (sometimes even that I don't care) when I watch a movie. Sound is a HUGE deal for me. Most people think of me as a basshead but surround sound always comes first for me. I was doing 6.1 before most people knew about it (no real hardware available) and have had 7.1 for a long time before Blu-ray. Back then I was waiting for discrete sound to speaker that could be mounted on the ceiling. There never was any real support for this other than some obscure mentions not applicable for home consumer use.
> 
> But now we do. We have Atmos and DTS:X delivering the same excellent 7.1 experience with the addition of up to four discrete speaker locations on the walls or ceiling. And in the future these titles can expand beyond 7.1.4 layout that we are currently limited to.
> 
> The immersive audio difference is that there is now an actual 3D bubble of sound instead of a flat ring of sound. We have separation of things that are around of us and/or above us in every direction. 7.1 can't really do this with stability. Sometimes you could get a vague "oh! that sounds like it was above me" moments in some titles (Master&Commander) but now you really can hear things above because they are above you. Simply having your surrounds in the ceiling does not do the same thing. Everything would sound like it is above you. Things that should image around you would image above you. With immersive audio, you get it all.
> 
> So if the question is: is it worth it?
> 
> Yes!
> 
> But if the question is: is it going to be worth it to _me_?
> 
> Then....you can only ask yourself.


Well said. I guess to answer that question I would need to listen to a properly setup Atmos setup, which is pretty rare around here...


----------



## beastaudio

Ey Yo @carp

Not sure if you saw it yet:

https://metallica.com/

June 4th St. Louis looks closest to you.


----------



## carp

Thanks Brandon, I saw that and was thinking about it. I've seen them 5 times, but it's always a great time so I might have to make it 6.


----------



## beastaudio

The Lineup is super solid. I've seen Volbeat once a while back and they really put on a good show. A7x would be awesome too.


----------



## carp

Agreed, I saw that at some cities all 3 bands are playing, but most of them it's either/or.


----------



## dlbeck

Got my tickets today!


----------



## john barlow

desertdome said:


> Well, I went back and checked on the UHD movies that dlbeck and I compared to the Blu-rays. I realized these both were done with a 2K digital intermediate. Therefore, they were upscaled to 4K for the UHD disc. Upscaling of the Blu-ray with madVR was just as good or better. So, we weren't using very valid content to compare the difference that 4k resolution makes.
> 
> 
> Many have viewed content on a DLP display and consider it a valid display type. A DLP only shows red, green, blue, cyan, magenta, or yellow at once, but our eye blends the colors to visually interpret a single colored pixel. Is this electronic trickery? Yes, but it produces the image. Actually, all display systems are electronic trickery of some form or another. With e-Shift, two different sets of 1920 x 1080 pixels are displayed sequentially. Like DPL, our eye blends the pixels to visually interpret a 4K image. E-Shift can be more accurate to the original signal when it receives 4K vs 2K since the algorithm doesn't have to resize.
> 
> The way a digital camera captures an image is very similar to how e-Shift reproduces the image. Digital cameras, including digital video cameras, use a color matrix and a Bayer Filter to recreate the RGB combination for each pixel. This video explains how it works:
> 
> https://youtu.be/LWxu4rkZBLw


Hey, thanks for the great video. It's in my favorites. Cheers!


----------



## carp

dlbeck said:


> Got my tickets today!


St. Louis? Chicago?


----------



## Gorilla83

Hey Carp - looking forward to checking out your room this weekend.  I'm also very interested in comparing 4K (even e-shift) to blu ray 1080p on a screen like yours. I better bring my glasses, lol.


----------



## carp

Gorilla83 said:


> Hey Carp - looking forward to checking out your room this weekend.  I'm also very interested in comparing 4K (even e-shift) to blu ray 1080p on a screen like yours. I better bring my glasses, lol.


Hey Andrew!

Oh yes, a magnifying glass may be required to see the difference!!  That is something we could do on Sunday for sure, go back and forth between blu ray and 4K. I think blind would be fun for that!

The only problem is that I might have killed my Oppo on Monday. Well, actually John Wick is to blame for that. While cranking up the club scene to test my demo's the 4K John Wick disk suddenly started skipping and the colors were way off. I had to adjust the saturation by 13 and the hue by 5 (after experimenting) to get the colors to look like they did before JW. Then last night when I turned on the system again last night the colors were way over saturated and red looking. So, I put the saturation and hue settings back to 0 and it looked normal again. Crazy. 

I put a pillow under the Oppo to try to keep it from becoming the 79th John Wick kill during the crawl demo, hopefully that helps.  I never had an issue with my old blu ray player. I think I might just use the blu ray for that scene and I'll do the 4K scenes first.


----------



## Gorilla83

That's cool. Are there any "real" 4K streaming sources available we could use? I'm not sure if you have a 4K roku or anything like that or if that's even true 4K. BTW the room looks (and I'm sure sounds) fantastic! 


Looking forward to seeing all of you guys more than anything, should be a blast.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Hey Andrew!
> 
> Oh yes, a magnifying glass may be required to see the difference!!  That is something we could do on Sunday for sure, go back and forth between blu ray and 4K. I think blind would be fun for that!
> 
> The only problem is that I might have killed my Oppo on Monday. Well, actually John Wick is to blame for that. While cranking up the club scene to test my demo's the 4K John Wick disk suddenly started skipping and the colors were way off. I had to adjust the saturation by 13 and the hue by 5 (after experimenting) to get the colors to look like they did before JW. Then last night when I turned on the system again last night the colors were way over saturated and red looking. So, I put the saturation and hue settings back to 0 and it looked normal again. Crazy.
> 
> I put a pillow under the Oppo to try to keep it from becoming the 79th John Wick kill during the crawl demo, hopefully that helps.  I never had an issue with my old blu ray player. I think I might just use the blu ray for that scene and I'll do the 4K scenes first.


A pillow, that's some solid engineering right there!!! I am popping in JW when I get home this evening to warm up for tomorrow night. DANG! TOMORROW NIGHT! Haha, it's finally here.



Gorilla83 said:


> That's cool. Are there any "real" 4K streaming sources available we could use? I'm not sure if you have a 4K roku or anything like that or if that's even true 4K. BTW the room looks (and I'm sure sounds) fantastic!
> 
> 
> Looking forward to seeing all of you guys more than anything, should be a blast.


Yes yes, I mean, do we really need to get @ChopShop1 to buy a last minute plane ticket and just seal this deal up completely?


----------



## Gorilla83

beastaudio said:


> Yes yes, I mean, do we really need to get @*ChopShop1* to buy a last minute plane ticket and just seal this deal up completely?



YES. Sending him a text now. It's worth a shot, right?


----------



## carp

I do have a Ruku 4, I can show some 4k clips from youtube on Sunday that look pretty impressive.


----------



## ChopShop1

I wish guys....nothing I'd love more this weekend than a good old fashion AVS party. Haven't seen you two maniacs in a minute


----------



## beastaudio

ChopShop1 said:


> I wish guys....nothing I'd love more this weekend than a good old fashion AVS party. Haven't seen you two maniacs in a minute


I don't know if everyone else in KC would want us together to be honest...


----------



## jlpowell84

Looking forward to impressions 

I am enjoying the upgraded 2453H-SL's. I would say they sound very similar or identical to the 2432H but minus the distortion, harshness, etc. I am sure in an optimal symmetrical treated room I could notice the other benefits Notnyt and others have mentioned going from the 3" to 4" diaphragm. Now in my nasty slap echo infested LR doesn't help either.

Watched Iron man 3 last night on my red neck 4.1 setup at -15. Never had to turn it down but did creep to -18 just to make sure wife was ok on final action scene. And I tested it at -12 and it was fine before she got home. But she never asked to turn down which she did frequently on the old 2432H CD's. I am pretty sure we watched at -23 before with having to turn down to -26 on action scenes.


----------



## popalock

beastaudio said:


> A pillow, that's some solid engineering right there!!! I am popping in JW when I get home this evening to warm up for tomorrow night. DANG! TOMORROW NIGHT! Haha, it's finally here.
> 
> Yes yes, I mean, do we really need to get @ChopShop1 to* buy a last minute plane ticket and just seal this deal up completely?*


Why is this not happening? @ChopShop1


----------



## Ladeback

@carp, what are the dimensions of you room if you don't mind. I am trying to figure out how big I really want to go with my room. Currently I am at 14x26x9, but am thinking of going 20x26x9. Also how close is your front row to the screen? I have a 120" 16:9 screen, but am thinking of going with a bigger AT screen at 2:35.1 or 2:40.1.

Thank you,


Doug


----------



## carp

Ladeback said:


> @carp, what are the dimensions of you room if you don't mind. I am trying to figure out how big I really want to go with my room. Currently I am at 14x26x9, but am thinking of going 20x26x9. Also how close is your front row to the screen? I have a 120" 16:9 screen, but am thinking of going with a bigger AT screen at 2:35.1 or 2:40.1.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> 
> Doug


23 deep and 17.5 wide. My eyes are 10 feet from the screen on the front row. 

Oh yes, I highly recommend going with a 2:35:1 screen. So much better since almost every movie I watch is in that aspect ratio. I have a 2:35:1 screen and it does bug me that pretty much every movie spills over the edges of the left and right of the screen to fill up the screen from top to bottom. So, if I had it to do over I'd get a 2:40 or 2:39:1 screen, which ever one fits most of these movies. 

IMO the larger you can go with your room the better!


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> IMO the larger you can go with your room the better!


So if you were room were much taller, would you allow a full size 16:9 screen of the same width?


----------



## carp

Scott Simonian said:


> So if you were room were much taller, would you allow a full size 16:9 screen of the same width?


I used to think that. I thought that you should go with the largest screen your room will allow, so if you are height limited go 2:35:1 and if you are width limited (which is more rare) go 16:9. 

I don't think that way anymore. For me it's more important to have the largest screen for movies. I watch a ton of tv too, and it would be such a let down to have tv be larger than movies.


----------



## Scott Simonian

carp said:


> I used to think that. I thought that you should go with the largest screen your room will allow, so if you are height limited go 2:35:1 and if you are width limited (which is more rare) go 16:9.
> 
> I don't think that way anymore. For me it's more important to have the largest screen for movies. I watch a ton of tv too, and it would be such a let down to have tv be larger than movies.


Yet the "largest screen for movies" may in fact be the 16:9 screen.

There are not a ton but several shifting aspect ratio movies that would benefit the larger screen area of the 16:9 and then yet get that "wow factor" when those movies 'open up' to the full screen size.


Every time I go to your guys' place with the scope screens, I am wow'd. It's pretty cool. Yet you all have wide and short rooms. I'm stuck with the opposite. My room is tall and narrow. My screen is nearly as wide as the room is. Had I cut it off there and had only a scope screen, it would be tiny and then 16:9 content would be even smaller. No way! 

I think the scope screen is awesome and cool factor is up there but I'd always go with the largest 16:9 screen I could fit in a room. More versatile and yes, I only watch movies.

_People are different and that's okay. 




_


----------



## Archaea

carp said:


> 23 deep and 17.5 wide. My eyes are 10 feet from the screen on the front row.
> 
> Oh yes, I highly recommend going with a 2:35:1 screen. So much better since almost every movie I watch is in that aspect ratio. I have a 2:35:1 screen and it does bug me that pretty much every movie spills over the edges of the left and right of the screen to fill up the screen from top to bottom. So, if I had it to do over I'd get a 2:40 or 2:39:1 screen, which ever one fits most of these movies.
> 
> IMO the larger you can go with your room the better!



Does your new Epson have the shutters that you can engage to eliminate spill over from 2.35:1 vs. 2:40:1? There are tons of movies in both formats. The Panasonic has shutters you can engage (automatically change with the autoswitch aspect ratio) that cover up any such spillage.


----------



## Archaea

I still agree with
implement the larger screen your room will allow:
if height limited go 2:35:1
if width limited go 16:9


There's still enough content on all of these formats to make the larger screen be the operative characteristic. Games are 99.9% 16x9, animated movies are almost universally 16x9. Imax films, Nature Documentaries (Planet Earth), HDTV broadcast etc. There's really no shortage of 16x9 content. In fact there is probably much more 16x9 content.


----------



## desertdome

Archaea said:


> Does your new Epson have the shutters that you can engage to eliminate spill over from 2.35:1 vs. 2:40:1? There are tons of movies in both formats. The Panasonic has shutters you can engage (automatically change with the autoswitch aspect ratio) that cover up any such spillage.


Shutters that cover up spillage? Not on any AE-8000U I've seen.  Are you talking about digital masking which blanks the pixels, but doesn't do anything for black bars?


----------



## Scott Simonian

desertdome said:


> Shutters that cover up spillage? Not on any AE-8000U I've seen.  Are you talking about digital masking which blanks the pixels, but doesn't do anything for black bars?


That's what I was thinking. I haven't seen a projector with physical shutters for such a thing. Digital blanking, yes. My Panasonic AX200u had that feature. I'm sure the 8000 does too. Not sure about the Epson.


----------



## Archaea

desertdome said:


> Shutters that cover up spillage? Not on any AE-8000U I've seen.  Are you talking about digital masking which blanks the pixels, but doesn't do anything for black bars?



Then I'd better hold onto mine - mine is special. 


Yes, it's called masking in the manual - but it's not just digital masking - or at least it sure doesn't seem like it.
Page 76 of the manual
https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/projector/extranet/main/products/ae8kat6k/manual/AE8000U_EN.pdf


Just digitally eliminating content would still throw that dark gray light leakage in the spot where content was. When you use the masking it eliminates any of the dark gray overspill and is 100% black---- as in no light spillage whatsoever. So I imagined it was literally moving a physical shutter over the out perimeter of the lens. (not only my imagination - but that theory is fueled by the fact you can hear something mechanically moving in the projector when you engage it). If that's not how it's working -- it sure fooled me. (not impossible to do BTW - )

For it to work 100%, for all sides your projector mount has to be basically in the middle of the screen. Since my room is short ceiling height, that isn't an option for me (my Panasonic is basically mounted in paralled with the top of the screen) so I can only use masking for the left/right and top. The bottom at the maximum setting value of 70 only crawls up the wall to above my 21" tall subwoofers. I can still see the dark gray light leakage on a small strip of wood panel, and the bottom velvet wrapped frame piece. It's inconsequential mostly because the dark gray is really dark gray and not terribly objectionable --- but the 'masking' function completely eliminates it on the other three frame pieces (and overzoom ceiling side). It's black as black can be for those three pieces when implemented. This ^, the automatic aspect ratio and focus change setting that changes based on actual content and not a manual button press of the remote, and the fact the masking can be saved in alongside the projector AR/focus change, and the fact the Panasonic does all these AR and focus and masking changes in like 3 seconds on the fly without touching the remote, make the 2012 Panasonic Projector still WAY ahead of anything else I've seen yet on the market for the 'bell and whistles' piece of a overzoomed 2.35:1 setup. 
I really missed this functionality on the JVC. (even with as much a better picture as the JVC threw). So I probably won't upgrade my Panasonic projector until other companies get these types of things automated. It's 2017 -- that 5 years to implement these ideas you competition (JBL, Epson, Sony, etc). What's the deal? Get in gear!


----------



## Ladeback

So you are are thinking it is better to have a 16:9 then a 2:40.1? the height of my room after doing soundproofing to the ceiling I would have a height of 8'-8" or 104" to work with. My room I hope is going to be 20x26 and that is counting the area behind the screen. If went with a 180" 16:9 AT screen it is 88" tall and would leave me 18" to play with top and bottom. If I went with a 180" 2:40.1 AT screen it is 69" tall and gives me 35" to [play with top and bottom. I do watch TV and play games on my current 120" 16:9 screen, but I like the idea of 2:40.1 because it is wider, fills the room better and more room to work with top and bottom.

The first drawing is what I am thinking of building. The second is what I have built. Walls are only stud walls, nothing finished out, so it is just a matter of tearing them down and building them back, but they are fastened into the concrete.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/2759681-ladeback-cinema.html


----------



## stitch1

I think it comes down to personal preference but I would go with a cinemascope screen if movies is your top priority. I had a 110" diagonal 16x9 screen and then upgraded to a 130" wide scope screen. This makes my 16x9 content just slightly larger than my old screen. but scope moves fill out the sides. I couldn't fit much taller in my room and wouldn't have wanted to. But I smile every time we watch a cinemascope movie. Makes me giddy. I just love the wider format.


----------



## desertdome

Archaea said:


> Then I'd better hold onto mine - mine is special.
> 
> 
> Yes, it's called masking in the manual - but it's not just digital masking - or at least it sure doesn't seem like it.


It is digital masking, but turns off the light output from the LCD completely. On the Mitsubishi projectors, like my HC4000, it is called a Shutter which is maybe where you picked up that terminology. 












> I really missed this functionality on the JVC.


madVR has this built in to work specifically with the JVC's. However, I haven't used it yet. I have no idea why other projectors don't implement it.


----------



## shivaji

desertdome said:


> It is digital masking, but turns off the light output from the LCD completely. On the Mitsubishi projectors, like my HC4000, it is called a Shutter which is maybe where you picked up that terminology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> madVR has this built in to work specifically with the JVC's. However, I haven't used it yet. I have no idea why other projectors don't implement it.


Nice to read another still using the Mitsu HC4000, as I do. Love being able, at the touch of a button switching between 2:35 and 16x9.


----------



## stitch1

Dang @desertdome you are doing a really good job of trying to sell me on one of these fancy new JVC units.


----------



## Ladeback

stitch1 said:


> Dang @desertdome you are doing a really good job of trying to sell me on one of these fancy new JVC units.


The Epson 5040 that carp has is on sale right now for $2499 at Nebraska Furniture Mart. That's the one I am thinking about or the 6040, that comes with an extra lamp, mount and extra year of warranty.


----------



## Scott Simonian

stitch1 said:


> I couldn't fit much taller in my room and wouldn't have wanted to...... But I smile every time we watch a cinemascope movie. Makes me giddy. I just love the wider format.


Hypothetically speaking...what if your room was taller? What if the width was the same? You could fit a 16:9 shaped screen exactly as wide as your current screen.

Will scope material not be the same with the exact same dimensions only with letterbox?



Not trying to pick on you (or anyone in particular) just curious what people think of that. It's the exact same screen but I know some will like one way and others another way. There is a lot of pyschology in play when people start throwing out "wider format" and such. It's interesting how most think of this completely differently even though the aspect ratio of choice would be the exact same size.


----------



## stitch1

I get your point. But for 16x9 to fill up the same size as my 2.40:1 screen it would have to be a lot taller. To me I would be looking up a lot more and having to move my head around more to see everything. I guess if I sat further away and had a much larger room I could make it work. Most of my 16x9 content is gaming. For me, in my room, at the distance I sit, 110" was the sweet spot for me with that content. I could have gone bigger. I was originally going to go with a 120" screen. But after testing it on the wall found it to be too big to be comfortable to me. However, one of my friends in a larger room did go with a 120" and I think it looks great in there. However, I still think he should have gone with that height but with a wider scope screen. (he had the room to do it)

But back to your point. I agree, it is a personal preference. But to me the wider 2.40:1 should be the larger of the two ratios. I know, I know, IMax does throw a wrench into it. But to me I would rather have a consent image height over consent image width. Call me old fashion.


----------



## desertdome

Scott Simonian said:


> Hypothetically speaking...what if your room was taller? What if the width was the same? You could fit a 16:9 shaped screen exactly as wide as your current screen.
> 
> Will scope material not be the same with the exact same dimensions only with letterbox?
> 
> Not trying to pick on you (or anyone in particular) just curious what people think of that. It's the exact same screen but I know some will like one way and others another way. There is a lot of pyschology in play when people start throwing out "wider format" and such. It's interesting how most think of this completely differently even though the aspect ratio of choice would be the exact same size.


I prefer the widest or tallest available in the space with a preference for 16:9 if it can be squeezed in. On the flip side, HDR dramatically improves with a smaller screen. 

From a little different perspective, a 16:9 screen is easier to calibrate. Because the zoom and image brightness change when switching between 2.39:1 and 16:9 on a scope screen, the convergence, color, and gamma will shift. Even with the iris on a JVC, one needs different settings for identical image quality with both aspect ratios. I currently do a 16:9, 2.39, UHD, and 3D calibration for a scope screen, but the UHD and 3D really should be based on aspect ratio, too. However, the projectors don't have enough custom settings available (only 3 custom gamma's for JVC).


----------



## Scott Simonian

I wouldn't say it's "old fashioned". Just a preference and one that a lot of people agree with. 

One thing is I guess I bought into the Constant Area screen method a while ago. CA screens is a 4-way masking system on usually a 2.0:1-ish aspect screen. That would be the ultimate ideal system if I could afford to make it happen.

https://youtu.be/v7AU3za6Fy8?t=17s

Having the option, I'd have: small 16:9
scope 2:40
large 16:9 (IMAX mode)

But in the meantime and with no moneys, I'll stick with IMAX mode permanently.


----------



## carp

Hmmm I guess if I had a tall narrow room I might have to change my tune. 

I know there are 1:85:1 movies but for whatever reason I hardly ever watch those. Seriously, at least 9 out of 10 maybe even more, of the movies we watch are 2:35:1... well, 2:39:1 to be exact. I can't remember the last 16:9 movie... oh wait, yes I can. The last 2 were Miss Peregrin's Home and The Jungle Book. Both were good, but more for the kids anyway. 

Jonathan, I don't think I have the blanking panels on the Epson. If I do I can take the masking piece of velvet off the ceiling that blocks the front ceiling speakers from getting with light in very dark scenes. 

2499 is a GREAT deal for this projector. I was very happy at 2799.


----------



## dlbeck

stitch1 said:


> I think it comes down to personal preference but I would go with a cinemascope screen if movies is your top priority. I had a 110" diagonal 16x9 screen and then upgraded to a 130" wide scope screen. This makes my 16x9 content just slightly larger than my old screen. but scope moves fill out the sides. I couldn't fit much taller in my room and wouldn't have wanted to. But I smile every time we watch a cinemascope movie. Makes me giddy. I just love the wider format.


I would agree with stitch...if movies are your priority - scope screen. I went with 2:37 AR - split the difference and it works great! Just my 2 cents...


----------



## JMAX2016

Carp, how did you hang the velvet from the ceiling? It looks so straight. Did you put it on some type of frame or track system?


----------



## carp

JMAX2016 said:


> Carp, how did you hang the velvet from the ceiling? It looks so straight. Did you put it on some type of frame or track system?


Do you mean the edge of it on the ceiling? 

First I drew a pencil line with a straight edge all the way across the ceiling. Next I tacked the velvet into the ceiling, putting the tacks into the pencil line every few inches (4-6 inches apart I would guess). The velvet (from Jo Ann's) has a border with some gold lines on it. I doubled over the edge of the velvet so that you can't see that border at all, but I used the border to make sure my tacks were all the same exact distance from the edge of the velvet if that makes sense. 

Finally when I was done I used flat black spray painted staples and then pulled the tacks out. I can't see the staples on the ceiling, I can see them on the side walls when the lights are on full. I wasn't nearly as careful with the walls because I kind of just hung the velvet like curtains since I have to get behind the velvet on the left side to get to the book case where all the blu rays are and also the equipment rack.


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> Do you mean the edge of it on the ceiling?
> 
> First I drew a pencil line with a straight edge all the way across the ceiling. Next I tacked the velvet into the ceiling, putting the tacks into the pencil line every few inches (4-6 inches apart I would guess). The velvet (from Jo Ann's) has a border with some gold lines on it. I doubled over the edge of the velvet so that you can't see that border at all, but I used the border to make sure my tacks were all the same exact distance from the edge of the velvet if that makes sense.
> 
> Finally when I was done I used flat black spray painted staples and then pulled the tacks out. I can't see the staples on the ceiling, I can see them on the side walls when the lights are on full. I wasn't nearly as careful with the walls because I kind of just hung the velvet like curtains since I have to get behind the velvet on the left side to get to the book case where all the blu rays are and also the equipment rack.


This was very similar to how I did mine.....mostly because Carp guided me through it. 
I am sure his room looks better than mine. Some areas didn't turn out all that good, but you can't tell unless you get right up on them. 

I'll tell ya, going with velvet in my room was a VERY nice change/upgrade. It makes my room feel much more like a theater. Definitely enjoy the floating screen and getting lost in my room.


----------



## carp

COACH2369 said:


> This was very similar to how I did mine.....mostly because Carp guided me through it.
> I am sure his room looks better than mine. Some areas didn't turn out all that good, but you can't tell unless you get right up on them.
> 
> I'll tell ya, going with velvet in my room was a VERY nice change/upgrade. It makes my room feel much more like a theater. Definitely enjoy the floating screen and getting lost in my room.


From your pics you out did me by a lot. 

Any regrets with doing the whole room? I think about doing that but just can't... we still watch sports and tv with the lights on and it would be so dark in here. Still... I think I may do it some day.


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> From your pics you out did me by a lot.
> 
> Any regrets with doing the whole room? I think about doing that but just can't... we still watch sports and tv with the lights on and it would be so dark in here. Still... I think I may do it some day.


No regrets at all about doing the whole room the way we did it. I would probably change my approach on how I attached it in a few areas, especially around my surround and front Atmos speakers. We got a tad sloppy because we didn't plan it out very well.

I was a little worried at first that the back walls having velvet would mess with the audio performance, but it didn't. My room sounds the best it has ever sounded. Part of that is due to additions I made to my room treatments. I added some absorption panels to the back wall and then added diffusion in other areas. 

I probably would have gone back a tad farther on my ceiling if I were starting over again, but we solved that by moving the first row seating up a teeny bit so you can't see the transition.

Not sure when this will happen, but when I get another room down the road I will make the velvet look cleaner and I will install black carpet.


----------



## JMAX2016

carp said:


> Do you mean the edge of it on the ceiling?
> 
> First I drew a pencil line with a straight edge all the way across the ceiling. Next I tacked the velvet into the ceiling, putting the tacks into the pencil line every few inches (4-6 inches apart I would guess). The velvet (from Jo Ann's) has a border with some gold lines on it. I doubled over the edge of the velvet so that you can't see that border at all, but I used the border to make sure my tacks were all the same exact distance from the edge of the velvet if that makes sense.
> 
> Finally when I was done I used flat black spray painted staples and then pulled the tacks out. I can't see the staples on the ceiling, I can see them on the side walls when the lights are on full. I wasn't nearly as careful with the walls because I kind of just hung the velvet like curtains since I have to get behind the velvet on the left side to get to the book case where all the blu rays are and also the equipment rack.


Interesting... Okay, so you used black staples and then directly stapled into the ceiling every 4-6 inches across. I assume the same length-wise too? Like a new line in 4-6 inches. Do you see it hang down at all, or is it pretty taunt on the ceiling?
Velvet is awesome isn't it! It soaks up the light like kitty litter. About a year ago, I became almost obsessed with seeing how good I could get my PQ, and did about 95% of my room in velvet. It was pitch black! Haha. The PQ looked amazing, but my audio suffered tremendously. So I took that down and am now running more of a traditional setup with AT fabric, etc. It was fun though!


----------



## carp

JMAX2016 said:


> Interesting... Okay, so you used black staples and then directly stapled into the ceiling every 4-6 inches across. I assume the same length-wise too? Like a new line in 4-6 inches. Do you see it hang down at all, or is it pretty taunt on the ceiling?
> Velvet is awesome isn't it! It soaks up the light like kitty litter. About a year ago, I became almost obsessed with seeing how good I could get my PQ, and did about 95% of my room in velvet. It was pitch black! Haha. The PQ looked amazing, but my audio suffered tremendously. So I took that down and am now running more of a traditional setup with AT fabric, etc. It was fun though!



Yes, black staples (well, normal staples spray painted black) every 4-6 inches but remember I did the tacks first to get it started. You have to pull pretty hard to get rid of any wrinkles and the staples will pull out more easily than the tacks so that's why I tacked first and then stapled.

I haven't noticed a difference in the audio... I would think the velvet would only affect very high frequencies though? Is that what it sounded like to you - like the reflections of the very high frequencies were muted a little bit?


----------



## COACH2369

carp said:


> Yes, black staples (well, normal staples spray painted black) every 4-6 inches but remember I did the tacks first to get it started. You have to pull pretty hard to get rid of any wrinkles and the staples will pull out more easily than the tacks so that's why I tacked first and then stapled.
> 
> I haven't noticed a difference in the audio... I would think the velvet would only affect very high frequencies though? Is that what it sounded like to you - like the reflections of the very high frequencies were muted a little bit?


I didn't notice a difference in audio at all. In fact, mine improved some...but I also added some additional treatments at the same time.

When I had my room calibrated after installing the velvet, my calibrator thought the room sounded fantastic.


----------



## JMAX2016

carp said:


> Yes, black staples (well, normal staples spray painted black) every 4-6 inches but remember I did the tacks first to get it started. You have to pull pretty hard to get rid of any wrinkles and the staples will pull out more easily than the tacks so that's why I tacked first and then stapled.
> 
> I haven't noticed a difference in the audio... I would think the velvet would only affect very high frequencies though? Is that what it sounded like to you - like the reflections of the very high frequencies were muted a little bit?


Okay, I get it. Thanks. That's a good idea. I remember I thought about that for a while. I ended up doing wood frames, the stapling the velvet around (like speaker grills) and then screwing it into a piece of wood that ran perpendicular to the joists. And yup, exactly I could hear the high frequency's not being absorbed, so the clarity (in my opinion) wasn't as good. You have a killer system, I bet it sounds amazing!





COACH2369 said:


> I didn't notice a difference in audio at all. In fact, mine improved some...but I also added some additional treatments at the same time.
> 
> When I had my room calibrated after installing the velvet, my calibrator thought the room sounded fantastic.


Interesting... That's awesome! Yeah, I wish it was the same in my room... I loved what it did to the picture quality.


----------



## jlpowell84

beastaudio said:


> BAM: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3110SB-05W-B20-E00/P14751-ND/2615564
> 
> Get two of those and just cut the plugs off the stock fans and heat shrink them onto the new fans after cutting off some slack. Disconnect the smaller fan on the side of the board and electric tape the connector to the fan to secure it and button 'er back up!


Ughghg, totally spaced and ordered one fan  Guess I'll pay shipping again 

So Brandon you did this on your IPR7500 yes? I know these class D amps run super cool. I did wire up the one fan and plugged in to compare to the stock loud as heck fan. I would say it puts out like 30% tops of the air flow the stock fans do. But we also really use like 15% or less the capacity of these amps probably 96% of the time.


----------



## Archaea

You trading out the cv5000 for an IPR7500?


----------



## jlpowell84

Archaea said:


> You trading out the cv5000 for an IPR7500?


I could be wrong, for some reason my memory thought he had an IPR7500 then sold it. If you mean me I have only ever had the Crest PL 7.5 Amps, same exact amp as IPR7500 besides slightly bigger internals I believe...


----------



## beastaudio

jlpowell84 said:


> Ughghg, totally spaced and ordered one fan  Guess I'll pay shipping again
> 
> So Brandon you did this on your IPR7500 yes? I know these class D amps run super cool. I did wire up the one fan and plugged in to compare to the stock loud as heck fan. I would say it puts out like 30% tops of the air flow the stock fans do. But we also really use like 15% or less the capacity of these amps probably 96% of the time.


Even for a full length concert disc in your room at reference you aren't going to see any issues. No they won't be cooling as fast as the stock fans. but they do enough to suffice for sure. 



Archaea said:


> You trading out the cv5000 for an IPR7500?


Yea, no cv5000 for me either homey. I've had this Crest 7.5 for a couple years now. Came from a sanway clone previous to that. Now have the Bosso amp but it's up for sale on the classys.


----------



## jlpowell84

beastaudio said:


> Even for a full length concert disc in your room at reference you aren't going to see any issues. No they won't be cooling as fast as the stock fans. but they do enough to suffice for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, no cv5000 for me either homey. I've had this Crest 7.5 for a couple years now. Came from a sanway clone previous to that. Now have the Bosso amp but it's up for sale on the classys.




Yea I like the Crest, seemed like the best choice for woofer duty with price and actual power it outputs. I do wish I would have considered the Crest CC series though. Def like those specs for mains...

I have the one new fan plugged in then used a D battery powered little 4 inch fan to cool other side and tried to get it to heat protect but couldn't. With "Bass Boosted" music on YouTube. House was making noises, wife was getting worried lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

How close do you sit to that gigantic screen?


----------



## carp

audioguy said:


> How close do you sit to that gigantic screen?


My eyes are 10 feet from the screen. It doesn't seem that big - unless - I get busy and don't have time to watch a movie or tv for a week. Last night was the first time I watched something for over a week and the screen seemed huge! In a good way though, I like that immersed feeling at the expense of other aspects of the image. 

To see a difference with 4K disks over blu ray I have to sit in the front row. Even then it's tough to tell on a lot of them and in the back row (17 feet away) I can't tell at all between 4K and blu ray.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Carp has his MLP at that "just on the edge of being uncomfortably close" seating distance. Mix that and his bass system and movies can be pretty intense!

It's perfect.


----------



## carp

I have a couple friends that NEVER sit in the front row, so I know it's too close for some. 

I actually preferred Derek's front row too to his back row seat spot seat, even though he was (I say was, he recently moved) 8 feet from 130 inch wide screen in the front row.


----------



## carp

I was motivated to post this in another thread (ahem... I'm pretty bored ) because I was thinking I didn't have post of the progression of my room over the last 10 years, so here it is. I'm more satisfied than I have ever been... and I really think I'm going to be done... at least for a little while. 



Here is the room 10 years ago... ahh I don't miss the baby monitor days....

2007:













2009:












2011 is when the madness began. 

I went from this:










to this:  Yep, a JTR Captivator.









And that year also added a projector and bought a second Captivator: 












2012: 



Sold Maggies and bought eD's, and also sold the Caps and bought Submersives - lateral move for sure, I was curious.







Random picture from 2012, comparing Submersives and Archaea's Captivator Pro's:







Also 2012. I got the chance to take home a demo pair of the original 212 Noesis. Big mistake. I had to have them. 








Random pic of comparing 212's to Archaea's 228's (first pair ever made). 







2013 went with 8 subs. 








Random pic comparing 4 of my sealed to Archea's 2 Captivator Pro's:








2014 bought JTR 215's for mains and finally got an AT screen:











2015 Nearfield Sub:













Went Atmos in 2016, added velvet to the front half of the room:


----------



## Ladeback

Ok I see you started with the old mega TV box on wheels and are now at the Epson 5040, but what did you have in between for a projector?


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## carp

Ladeback said:


> Ok I see you started with the old mega TV box on wheels and are now at the Epson 5040, but what did you have in between for a projector?



My first projector was the Epson 8350. For 1000 bucks in 2011 that thing was awesome! I remember trying it out on the wall and immediately deciding that I wanted the largest picture that I could fit on my wall. I was height limited so I went 2:35:1. 











The next projector was the Epson 3500, and then the 5040.


----------



## Ladeback

So you sold the JTR 215's for your current JBL's? What made you make the change?


----------



## carp

Ladeback said:


> So you sold the JTR 215's for your current JBL's? What made you make the change?


Yeah I did that last fall, so I had the 4722's with the upgraded CD's at the crawl. I posted this recently in another thread when asked that question:

Long story, to sum it up I wanted to free up some funds to go Atmos. It was really getting the itch for that. At the same time my priorities were shifting from music to movies and I had already compared the 4722's in my room with my 212's a couple years back and I knew that for movies I would be fine. IMO differences in speakers (within reason, the speakers have to have simiilar dynamic capability etc.) are much less important for movies than they are for music. Also I didn't want to move up my AT screen at all to fit the 215's behind the screen. 

So, the decision was to go Atmos in the short term with an affordable system and then sometime down the road get a pair of speakers to put out in front of the screen wall for 2 channel music and keep the JBL's behind the screen for movies. That's still the plan but motivation is low because the 4722's with the upgraded compression driver are really damn good, not just for movies but for music too. That said I recently borrowed a friends 210 RT's for a couple months and those little guys are my all time favorite speaker.


----------



## Reefdvr27

Nice! Looks good Sheldon. I just bought the 5040Ub myself. It is incredible. Blows away my previous Panasonic PTAE8000U and I do not even have it in 4K enhancing yet! Hopefully the new oppo 203 gets here soon!


----------



## carp

Reefdvr27 said:


> Nice! Looks good Sheldon. I just bought the 5040Ub myself. It is incredible. Blows away my previous Panasonic PTAE8000U and I do not even have it in 4K enhancing yet! Hopefully the new oppo 203 gets here soon!


Thanks Dave! Yeah I'm a big fan of the 5040. You can see what 4K enhancement does on regular blu ray. For me it's the difference between having the screen door effect and having it be completely gone when toggling 4k enhancement on and off. Worth the upgrade to the 5040 for that alone. 

Try these settings when you get your 203 for UHD disks:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...ub-6040ub-owners-thread-241.html#post52228017


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## raynist

carp said:


> Thanks Dave! Yeah I'm a big fan of the 5040. You can see what 4K enhancement does on regular blu ray. For me it's the difference between having the screen door effect and having it be completely gone when toggling 4k enhancement on and off. Worth the upgrade to the 5040 for that alone.
> 
> Try these settings when you get your 203 for UHD disks:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...ub-6040ub-owners-thread-241.html#post52228017


Are you using the dynamic iris function on the 5040? I was torn between that projector and the Sony 45es. I hated the dynamic iris on my 8350 as I could hear it and see the picture dimming and brightening so I always had it turned off even though the black levels were better with it on.


----------



## carp

raynist said:


> Are you using the dynamic iris function on the 5040? I was torn between that projector and the Sony 45es. I hated the dynamic iris on my 8350 as I could hear it and see the picture dimming and brightening so I always had it turned off even though the black levels were better with it on.


I hear you, I hated it on the 8350 too so I never even tried it on the 3500. I never really used it on the 5040 until I tried Dave Harper's settings. Once I tried it I've used it ever since because it's so much quicker than the 8350 was and I can't hear it from my seat.


----------



## raynist

carp said:


> I hear you, I hated it on the 8350 too so I never even tried it on the 3500. I never really used it on the 5040 until I tried Dave Harper's settings. Once I tried it I've used it ever since because it's so much quicker than the 8350 was and I can't hear it from my seat.


How close are u to the projector? Mine is directly above my head, maybe 4ft above me. Can u hear the iris that close? How about the fan? The fan on the sony 45es is silent. I used to be able to hear the 8350 fan while watching movies which annoyed me.


----------



## DavidK442

carp said:


> I was motivated to post this in another thread (ahem... I'm pretty bored ) because I was thinking I didn't have post of the progression of my room over the last 10 years, so here it is. I'm more satisfied than I have ever been... and I really think I'm going to be done... at least for a little while.
> Here is the room 10 years ago... ahh I don't miss the baby monitor days....


Great post Mr. Darwin sir.


----------



## carp

raynist said:


> How close are u to the projector? Mine is directly above my head, maybe 4ft above me. Can u hear the iris that close? How about the fan? The fan on the sony 45es is silent. I used to be able to hear the 8350 fan while watching movies which annoyed me.



When I'm in the front row I'm 7 feet away from it. I can't hear it at all in eco and medium. On high it's easy to hear if you are listening for it and if there is no volume from the system. In the back row I'm real close. anywhere from 2 to 4 feet depending on where I am on the couch. I still can't hear it on eco, and I can hear it with no volume from the system on medium. 

I use eco most of the time. Lately I have used Dave Harper's settings for UHD disks which includes using high but it still doesn't bother me because I can't hear it when there is content in the movie. 

I had the JVC rs500 in the room and I want to say the fan noise was pretty similar? It's been a while though so I could be wrong about that. 

Since you are used to a completely silent fan, you may not be happy with the fan on the 5040 unless you are going to use eco all the time - which is a good possibility since I think your screen is smaller than mine?


----------



## Reefdvr27

carp said:


> Thanks Dave! Yeah I'm a big fan of the 5040. You can see what 4K enhancement does on regular blu ray. For me it's the difference between having the screen door effect and having it be completely gone when toggling 4k enhancement on and off. Worth the upgrade to the 5040 for that alone.
> 
> Try these settings when you get your 203 for UHD disks:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...ub-6040ub-owners-thread-241.html#post52228017


Thanks for the settings Sheldon. I know I asked for settings in the Panny 8000 thread before when I was setting up my last PJ and somebody told me that settings will not be the same for all PJ’s as screens and lighting are all different? I do know one thing. I am completely in the dark when it comes to the settings in a PJ or even a new TV. I mean I have no idea what any of that stuff does. I just tinker around a bit. I will see if those settings help me though, thanks for sharing. I know I have a bit of the soap opera effect going on, is there anything to reduce that? I mean I guess that is part of the enhancement but I just hate when it looks to real.


----------



## carp

Reefdvr27 said:


> Thanks for the settings Sheldon. I know I asked for settings in the Panny 8000 thread before when I was setting up my last PJ and somebody told me that settings will not be the same for all PJ’s as screens and lighting are all different? I do know one thing. I am completely in the dark when it comes to the settings in a PJ or even a new TV. I mean I have no idea what any of that stuff does. I just tinker around a bit. I will see if those settings help me though, thanks for sharing. I know I have a bit of the soap opera effect going on, is there anything to reduce that? I mean I guess that is part of the enhancement but I just hate when it looks to real.


Go to frame interpolation on the menu and turn it off! I hate that too and never have it on. 

Only use the settings I gave you for 4K disks with HDR. For blu ray, tv, etc. I use bright cinema and don't tweak the factory settings much. However like you say, not all rooms or the same, and even the each projector can be a little different. For the 4k settings start with what I posted and tweak from there. 

There is another guy on that thread that has settings for 4K that use bright cinema, I'm going to try those too.


----------



## carp

A friend is doing a HT room and is looking to spend around 150 to 200 per speaker for a 7.1.4 setup. He's not interested in DIY. 

Any recommendations at that price point? Anything significantly better if he ups it to 250-300 per speaker? I'd recommend the Macke's or SCS8's to him (he's willing to spend a little more than 150-200 if it's an obvious difference) but he doesn't like the depth of the SCS8's or the looks of the Mackes.

How about these from HSU?

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hb-1.html

His doesn't care at all about music, just movies. He doesn't turn it up crazy loud at all. 

Thanks for any help. My feeling is that the HSU's would do just fine for him but want to double check if there is something else I should recommend to him instead.


----------



## dlbeck

I love the Elac speakers...heard them at RMAF. 

https://www.elac.com/product/debut-b6/?r=us


----------



## JDontee

I owned those HSU and loved them, until I put them in a bigger room. How big is his room? When I built the cinema 8's, I moved my HSU bookshelves into my office and they were close to nearfield. Sounded great.


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> A friend is doing a HT room and is looking to spend around 150 to 200 per speaker for a 7.1.4 setup. He's not interested in DIY.
> 
> Any recommendations at that price point? Anything significantly better if he ups it to 250-300 per speaker? I'd recommend the Macke's or SCS8's to him (he's willing to spend a little more than 150-200 if it's an obvious difference) but he doesn't like the depth of the SCS8's or the looks of the Mackes.
> 
> How about these from HSU?
> 
> http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hb-1.html
> 
> His doesn't care at all about music, just movies. He doesn't turn it up crazy loud at all.
> 
> Thanks for any help. My feeling is that the HSU's would do just fine for him but want to double check if there is something else I should recommend to him instead.


I did a 7.1 theater a couple of years ago with the HSU HB-1's and a VTF-15 subwoofer. It wasn't a very big room. The speakers sounded ok for mains, but weren't as good for surrounds and were a pain to mount (and extra expense). The owner built a new house last year and we put in a complete JTR system including dual Orbit Shifters LFU's.

If you want something easy to install that matches the sensitivity of the HSU, check out the Definitive Technology AW6500. They make good surrounds and Atmos speakers for a budget setup. The price is at the very bottom end the price point. Let me know if you want to listen to one.


----------



## carp

dlbeck said:


> I love the Elac speakers...heard them at RMAF.
> 
> https://www.elac.com/product/debut-b6/?r=us



Cool, I'll look more into them. Looks like they have pretty low sensitivity but the reviews are really good! He doesn't like to crank it up very loud, so that helps. 




JDontee said:


> I owned those HSU and loved them, until I put them in a bigger room. How big is his room? When I built the cinema 8's, I moved my HSU bookshelves into my office and they were close to nearfield. Sounded great.


Yeah it's pretty big - or going to be, he is getting his basement finished. The basement has about the same square footage as my entire house, no exaggeration. The area for the HT wil be at least twice the size of my room, open to a bar area/pool table. 

That's the other thing, the left side of the room will not have a wall so I guess he will have to get some stands like Derek has/had in his old room.


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## carp

desertdome said:


> I did a 7.1 theater a couple of years ago with the HSU HB-1's and a VTF-15 subwoofer. It wasn't a very big room. The speakers sounded ok for mains, but weren't as good for surrounds and were a pain to mount (and extra expense). The owner built a new house last year and we put in a complete JTR system including dual Orbit Shifters LFU's.
> 
> If you want something easy to install that matches the sensitivity of the HSU, check out the Definitive Technology AW6500. They make good surrounds and Atmos speakers for a budget setup. The price is at the very bottom end the price point. Let me know if you want to listen to one.


Thanks for the email, I just replied. 

As far as subs I'm thinking dual VTF-15's because he's not a bass head by any means and last I knew that was the best sub at that price point?


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## carp

Michael, yeah those Def Tech's look super easy to mount! I'm calling BS on 40hz extension and 92 db sensitivity at that size! :laugh:

Must be +/- 10 db's at 40hz.


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## dlbeck

carp said:


> Thanks for the email, I just replied.
> 
> As far as subs I'm thinking dual VTF-15's because he's not a bass head by any means and last I knew that was the best sub at that price point?


Wait....I'm really confused. Your first post relative to this topic was "A friend is doing a HT room..." and then you said later on that he's not a "bass head." Which one is it?  A friend or doesn't appreciates bass?

The HSU's are a lot more sensitive so if you're trying to fill a bigger room I would go with those over the ELAC's.


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## Pain Infliction

What's up carp!? I had a chance to visit KC and it was a great experience. Beautiful city with friendly people. I really liked it and Arrowhead stadium!


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## carp

Pain Infliction said:


> What's up carp!? I had a chance to visit KC and it was a great experience. Beautiful city with friendly people. I really liked it and Arrowhead stadium!


Hey man! Woah, it's been a while.  Are you still using the same gear, or have there been updates?

Ahhh man you saw us lose to the Steelers, huh? If I remember right you are an Eagles fan? They are looking pretty good this year.


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## carp

Ha, just looked at your Avatar after I posted. Yep, Eagles fan. 

Are you still watching football with your 2:35:1 screen filled/slightly stretched? I was intrigued by that idea, but if I remember right you had some kind of not so cheap device to be able to pull it off.


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## desertdome

carp said:


> Ha, just looked at your Avatar after I posted. Yep, Eagles fan.
> 
> Are you still watching football with your 2:35:1 screen filled/slightly stretched? I was intrigued by that idea, but if I remember right you had some kind of not so cheap device to be able to pull it off.


His Lumagen XD does non-linear stretch. 

@Pain Infliction Happy birthday to your daughter. My sons had birthdays the 15 and the 20th.


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## Pain Infliction

carp said:


> Hey man! Woah, it's been a while.  Are you still using the same gear, or have there been updates?
> 
> Ahhh man you saw us lose to the Steelers, huh? If I remember right you are an Eagles fan? They are looking pretty good this year.


I am still using the same gear. I have really been out of the scene for a while now. I feel like I need to research a lot about new gear. I still haven't gone ATMOS yet and have been planning to. Also, JVC 4K projector has my name on it since I saw one in action a CEDIA a couple of years ago. So I know now they are even better.

I saw the Eagles vs Chiefs. Chiefs won that game but it was a really great experience. Everybody in KC was so nice. I got at least 3 "welcome to Arrowhead stadium" greetings. KC is very passionate about their football team and it was really awesome to see a city look like a college town with their pro team. 

I thought about contacting all of you guys, but I haven't talked to you guys in a very long time. Plus, I went around and explored the city that I would love to retire in. No joke!



carp said:


> Ha, just looked at your Avatar after I posted. Yep, Eagles fan.
> 
> Are you still watching football with your 2:35:1 screen filled/slightly stretched? I was intrigued by that idea, but if I remember right you had some kind of not so cheap device to be able to pull it off.


Die hard Philly fan! 

Yes I am still watching the games in my theater. Only the Eagles games though. I might watch the World Series in there since the Astros are in it.

The Device you are talking about is the Lumagen Radiance video processor. They are not cheap, but you can probably find an older model such as the Mini for a good price. As long as you don't need 4K.



desertdome said:


> His Lumagen XD does non-linear stretch.
> 
> @Pain Infliction Happy birthday to your daughter. My sons had birthdays the 15 and the 20th.


Thanks Bud! It's crazy seeing them get bigger and bigger over the years. You never can really tell how much they change until you look back at older pics of them. I am always shocked at how much they change in such a short period of time.

Happy Birthday to both of your sons!


----------



## beastaudio

Pain Infliction said:


> I saw the Eagles vs Chiefs. Chiefs won that game but it was a really great experience. Everybody in KC was so nice. I got at least 3 "welcome to Arrowhead stadium" greetings. KC is very passionate about their football team and it was really awesome to see a city look like a college town with their pro team.


Yea, haha. Can't say anyone gets that kind of greeting when visiting Philly as an opposing team fan.


----------



## carp

Wow, it's looking like the Eagles may be the best team in Football. Well, after the Patriots  that is.


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## Ladeback

carp said:


> Wow, it's looking like the Eagles may be the best team in Football. Well, after the Patriots  that is.


Actually right now there is a 5 way behind the Eagles for second best team in this order; Chiefs, Rams, Vikings, Patriots and Steelers. Still a lot of the season left, but the Eagles look pretty good. Their schedule looks like they could do well, but so do a lot of other teams.


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## carp

Ladeback said:


> Actually right now there is a 5 way behind the Eagles for second best team in this order; Chiefs, Rams, Vikings, Patriots and Steelers. Still a lot of the season left, but the Eagles look pretty good. Their schedule looks like they could do well, but so do a lot of other teams.



Yeah, the Eagles and Steelers have very easy schedules the rest of the way.

I wouldn't put my money on anyone to knock off the Pats in the playoffs. They are pure evil, and pure evil is hard to kill.


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## carp

Painted the back half of the room. 



























































I decided I didn't like the look of the red curtains so I had a local seamstress remove the black out material and sew on velvet.





















You can't see the front curtain in this picture because it just blends with the rest of the velvet. 




















Differnce between Mouse Ears black and velvet. As dark as the paint is, it's not even close. 












I raised up the back riser from 10 inches to 15 so I DIY'd some steps and had they guy that recently installed our carpet put carpet over the steps, one on each side of the riser. Love how it turned out.


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## COACH2369

carp said:


> Painted the back half of the room.
> 
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> I decided I didn't like the look of the red curtains so I had a local seamstress remove the black out material and sew on velvet.
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> I raised up the back riser from 10 inches to 15 so I DIY'd some steps and had they guy that recently installed our carpet put carpet over the steps, one on each side of the riser. Love how it turned out.


is it just my computer, or did the pictures not load?


----------



## jedimastergrant

No the pics do not load for me either. carp your not using photo scam bucket are you?

I started uploading them using the paperclip icon and then putting them into the post from there.


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## Frohlich

COACH2369 said:


> is it just my computer, or did the pictures not load?





jedimastergrant said:


> No the pics do not load for me either. carp your not using photo scam bucket are you?
> 
> I started uploading them using the paperclip icon and then putting them into the post from there.


Probably using Behr's new invisible paint. Makes everything sound and look so natural to the point where nothing gets in the way ...because you can't hear or see anything.


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## carp

Ahh screw it. 

No, I'm using avs with the whole manage attachments and upload and what not. Oh well, it's way too difficult to post pictures now days I think i'm done messing with it. On my end they are all there in the post body itself. F it.


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## carp

All the pictures are there too when Coach quoted it.


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## carp

Anyone see this^?


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## ereed

carp said:


> Anyone see this^?


That's the only one we can see.  Previous ones did not load for me either.


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## carp

Ha, as soon as I posted the last picture, all the previous pictures disappeared.


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## Gorilla83

Nice, man! Looks great. I may have to explore the velvet as well for part of my front wall. I'm in the process of tearing down the room anyway to do some black carpet all over.


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## carp

Gorilla83 said:


> Nice, man! Looks great. I may have to explore the velvet as well for part of my front wall. I'm in the process of tearing down the room anyway to do some black carpet all over.


Thanks Andrew! 

Velvet makes such a huge difference, so much better than the blackest paint - I highly recommend it not only for the front wall but the ceiling and side walls in the front part of the room.


----------



## carp

Ok, so trying again, here is a before and after. Anyone seeing this? I want to make sure before I post more. 

Another change I made a couple months back or so was going to in ceiling atmos speakers.


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## d_c

I see it! Are those the new surrounds or the JBLs?


----------



## carp

d_c said:


> I see it! Are those the new surrounds or the JBLs?


Sweet! Feeling slightly less stooopid. 

The surrounds are the same JBL scs8's. In ceiling are RSL's.


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## COACH2369

carp said:


> Sweet! Feeling slightly less stooopid.
> 
> The surrounds are the same JBL scs8's. In ceiling are RSL's.


The room looks great!

I have been considering going to an in-ceiling ATMOS speaker at some point in order to improve upon the location and clean the room up a bit. Do you like the RSL's as much as the SCS8's? Does everybody play well together?


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## carp

After painting the red curtains didn't look right, plus I wanted velvet on the curtain that is in the front of the room so that my view from the front row would have nothing but the velvet. You can see when I close the front curtain it just blends in to the rest of the velvet. I found seamstress close by that removed the black out material from the back of the old curtains and sewed the velvet where the red material was.


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## carp

COACH2369 said:


> The room looks great!
> 
> I have been considering going to an in-ceiling ATMOS speaker at some point in order to improve upon the location and clean the room up a bit. Do you like the RSL's as much as the SCS8's? Does everybody play well together?


Thanks Coach! 

Yes, I highly recommend going from the scs8's to the RSL's for the ceiling both for looks but more importantly to get the sound source higher up. The benefits far outweigh any issues with non matching speakers because I can't tell they don't match anyway.


----------



## carp

Like I was saying before, I raised my back row riser a few inches so it's now 15 inches tall so I needed 2 steps, one on each side of the riser. I thought about buying something but figured I'd better do it right and DIY something. That sentence sounds so wrong coming from me. :laugh:

I had my carpet installer put pad and matching carpet over them.


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## stitch1

Wow Carp! It looks like you moved... You room looks so different with the new carpet and paint! Very nice upgrade for it.


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## carp

Thanks Tim! I put off painting for a long time, glad it's finally done.


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## d_c

Man it looks great - it’s like a whole facelift. I was going to build these complicated boxes to aim my Atmos speakers at the MLP but decided to mount them flush with the ceiling to get them up higher - at least to see if it would work. You have given me hope seeing yours now. I was really not looking forward to figuring out how to build them


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## COACH2369

carp said:


> Thanks Coach!
> 
> Yes, I highly recommend going from the scs8's to the RSL's for the ceiling both for looks but more importantly to get the sound source higher up. The benefits far outweigh any issues with non matching speakers because I can't tell they don't match anyway.


I appreciate the information. I just sent you a PM instead of bogging down your thread with questions about the speakers.


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## carp

d_c said:


> Man it looks great - it’s like a whole facelift. I was going to build these complicated boxes to aim my Atmos speakers at the MLP but decided to mount them flush with the ceiling to get them up higher - at least to see if it would work. You have given me hope seeing yours now. I was really not looking forward to figuring out how to build them


Thanks man, I used to feel like trying to my room look like a HT was like polishing a turd but it's starting to look better. I need to hire Grant to re-do some of my velvet, his looks perfect. 

With the RSL's you can aim the tweeter how you want, and the drivers are angled as well. However I'm not sure how necessary this is as long as the dispersion of the speaker is pretty wide, which yours are.


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## carp

COACH2369 said:


> I appreciate the information. I just sent you a PM instead of bogging down your thread with questions about the speakers.


got it


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## JDontee

Are you no longer using the JBL's for Atmos? If not, why did you make the change? BTW, the room is looking great.


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## carp

JDontee said:


> Are you no longer using the JBL's for Atmos? If not, why did you make the change? BTW, the room is looking great.


Thanks JD, I changed for a couple reasons. For one thing I wanted them higher up and also the front pair distracted the eyes a bit with the reflection since there is velvet everywhere in front of me. I definitely get better sound from over head because not only are they higher but I moved them a bit closer to the first row (keeping them the same width apart).


----------



## carp

Still using the scs8's for side and rear.


----------



## SBuger

I just took a look at your before and after pics, wow that's a nice change. Its even easier on your eyes in the pics, so probably better for video as well! I'm well aware of what velvet can do now since putting some up, so nice there as well on your curtain up front!

I've admired your basement and setup for a long time, but wow, it's really nice now! I like your Metallica stuff and metal poster on the wall too, bad ass. An awesome room to spend time in I'm sure.

Kudos man!!


----------



## beastaudio

Killer Carp!!!! I have two questions tho on application

Did you sand then paint the ceiling? I've heard that is a HUGE task to get popcorn/sponge off the sheetrock. My whole house it littered with that junk and I've contemplated many times doing as such but hear nothing but nightmare stories about getting it to look nice and uniform. Mouse ears flat I guess helps a lot with that.

What was your process for raising the riser? I've also thought about this as mine is only 10" and needs to be much higher to get full clearance of screen viewing for the rear seats. 15" would do the trick but aside from installing 4x4 stilts and re-doing the wood sides I have now, it too would be a pretty sizable task. I might as well just build another riser from my design thinking....


----------



## lukeamdman

Looks great!

When are you guys having another GTG or crawl? I need to make it down there.


----------



## carp

SBuger said:


> I just took a look at your before and after pics, wow that's a nice change. Its even easier on your eyes in the pics, so probably better for video as well! I'm well aware of what velvet can do now since putting some up, so nice there as well on your curtain up front!
> 
> I've admired your basement and setup for a long time, but wow, it's really nice now! I like your Metallica stuff and metal poster on the wall too, bad ass. An awesome room to spend time in I'm sure.
> 
> Kudos man!!


Thanks! Yeah, those Metallica records have been the one constant in the room since long before I had a projector. After painting I had a fleeting thought of growing up a bit and not putting them back up. I quickly decided that I'm not fully ready to embrace this whole grown up thing. 



beastaudio said:


> Killer Carp!!!! I have two questions tho on application
> 
> Did you sand then paint the ceiling? I've heard that is a HUGE task to get popcorn/sponge off the sheetrock. My whole house it littered with that junk and I've contemplated many times doing as such but hear nothing but nightmare stories about getting it to look nice and uniform. Mouse ears flat I guess helps a lot with that.
> 
> What was your process for raising the riser? I've also thought about this as mine is only 10" and needs to be much higher to get full clearance of screen viewing for the rear seats. 15" would do the trick but aside from installing 4x4 stilts and re-doing the wood sides I have now, it too would be a pretty sizable task. I might as well just build another riser from my design thinking....


My basement ceiling is the only room in the house with a knockdown ceiling, so I didn't have to scrape popcorn. Funny you mention that though because I plan on scraping some of the other rooms in the house this summer. Yeah, I hear it's not much fun.

With the riser I flipped it and screwed 3 layers of 2x4's round the perimeter and wrapped them in velvet. I used more 2x4's in the center area so it won't dip in the middle. 



lukeamdman said:


> Looks great!
> 
> When are you guys having another GTG or crawl? I need to make it down there.



Agreed ^ 
There is talk of doing one next spring - Doug will have his room done and even without that his house was already the place to be.


----------



## ambesolman

Room looks great  As far as the popcorn ceiling, I've seen YouTube vids where a guy used a pump sprayer to lightly wet the ceiling and it scraped right off with minimal mess, just wipe off the scraper and keep going.


Sent using Tapatalk cuz the mobile version is still


----------



## d_c

I brought the garden hose in and used the fan nozzle on the sprayer when I scraped ceilings. Spray a 4x4 section and wait 5 minutes, then scrape lightly with a 12” Drywall blade while catching it with a big dustpan under it. The messy part is sanding it smooth. I also did a skim coat of thin drywall mud over the whole ceiling to make it extra smooth. You can do it Carp!

We should do at least a Lite version of a ht crawl next spring. I’ll be ready for a movie night at my place this March.


----------



## 7channelfreak

d_c said:


> I brought the garden hose in and used the fan nozzle on the sprayer when I scraped ceilings. Spray a 4x4 section and wait 5 minutes, then scrape lightly with a 12” Drywall blade while catching it with a big dustpan under it. The messy part is sanding it smooth. I also did a skim coat of thin drywall mud over the whole ceiling to make it extra smooth. You can do it Carp!
> 
> We should do at least a Lite version of a ht crawl next spring. I’ll be ready for a movie night at my place this March.


Does “Lite” include folks from Houston ?


----------



## d_c

7channelfreak said:


> Does “Lite” include folks from Houston ?




Especially folks from Houston. If folks from Houston don’t come (again), then we are canceling it.


----------



## carp

d_c said:


> I brought the garden hose in and used the fan nozzle on the sprayer when I scraped ceilings. Spray a 4x4 section and wait 5 minutes, then scrape lightly with a 12” Drywall blade while catching it with a big dustpan under it. The messy part is sanding it smooth. I also did a skim coat of thin drywall mud over the whole ceiling to make it extra smooth. You can do it Carp!
> 
> We should do at least a Lite version of a ht crawl next spring. I’ll be ready for a movie night at my place this March.



How smooth does it need to be, I'm having someone apply a knockdown surface after I get rid of the popcorn. So I'm wondering if I can get by without sanding?

Next month? Can't wait!




7channelfreak said:


> Does “Lite” include folks from Houston ?


Always welcome Randy!


----------



## d_c

Not too smooth for knockdown. You will be fine just scraping it and filling any big gouges.


----------



## Archaea

lukeamdman said:


> Looks great!
> 
> When are you guys having another GTG or crawl? I need to make it down there.




I had a dream we had another big crawl, and Jeff brought down four 4000ULF units and wanted to demo them in my room. I was conflicted because I really wanted to hear them, but I didn't want my house's drywall destroyed, and to that Jeff promised he wouldn't destroy my room ----- and yet --- somehow I didn't believe him.


----------



## dlbeck

Archaea said:


> I had a dream we had another big crawl, and Jeff brought down four 4000ULF units and wanted to demo them in my room. I was conflicted because I really wanted to hear them, but I didn't want my house's drywall destroyed, and to that Jeff promised he wouldn't destroy my room ----- and yet --- somehow I didn't believe him.


All kinds of goodness in that dream


----------



## carp

I lived that dream... well 25% of it anyway. :laugh:


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> I lived that dream... well 25% of it anyway. :laugh:


Yes let's play it extremely hot and all go stand in the same room directly above it to feel the floor flexing like crazy. That's a good idea....so when the house collapses we ALL go down with it.


----------



## Ladeback

beastaudio said:


> Yes let's play it extremely hot and all go stand in the same room directly above it to feel the floor flexing like crazy. That's a good idea....so when the house collapses we ALL go down with it.


But, we all lived to tell about it and watch Doug screw screws back into his drywall.


----------



## d_c

That’s a great dream. I have some weird ones too. The 4000 is an amazing sub - it’s amount of awesomeness is directly proportionally opposite to carrying it.


----------



## desertdome

d_c said:


> That’s a great dream. I have some weird ones too. The 4000 is an amazing sub - it’s amount of awesomeness is directly proportionally opposite to carrying it.


I've carried it either in or out of 6 different houses and loaded in my van 4 times including picking it up at Fedex! Grant volunteered to go up the stairs first when we extracted it from his basement. Carrying seven 215RT's into AXPONA isn't much fun either.


----------



## Archaea

Put up some pics and commentary on your BOSS setup!


----------



## carp

Finally got it all finished yesterday. Front row has a total of 6 drivers and the back riser has 4 in the riser and another 2 drivers under the couch. It's a blast, I'll post some more details when I get more time. I think I'll put up the NF sub and Crowsons for sale first.


----------



## Ladeback

I tired sending you a PM yesterday, but it said you box was full and couldn't except any more till you got rid of some. I didn't know there was a limit till I tired sending you one about doing a demo on your theater.


----------



## stitch1

He blocked messages from you.


----------



## jlpowell84

desertdome said:


> I've carried it either in or out of 6 different houses and loaded in my van 4 times including picking it up at Fedex! Grant volunteered to go up the stairs first when we extracted it from his basement. Carrying seven 215RT's into AXPONA isn't much fun either.


Neither is building a crate and shipping them lol but I was successful lol.


----------



## carp

Yeah I need to delete some messages...


----------



## dropzone7

Carp,

Are you in North Carolina? I don't read the forums much anymore but I kind of remember your room.

I think I bought a sub from you years ago.  Then again, I'm getting old so maybe it was someone else.


----------



## carp

No, I'm in Kansas City, must have been a room similar to mine.


----------



## dropzone7

carp said:


> No, I'm in Kansas City, must have been a room similar to mine.


Ah, okay. Told you I was getting old. Anyway, your room does look familiar or at the very least it looks like what I have in mind for my room. Unfortunately I have slanted ceilings to contend with but I think I can get a fairly large screen in there because the slant to the ceiling goes all the way around the room and I can pull the screen out some to get more height. Another thing that caught my attention was your JBL speakers. I have a set LCR of the little brother 3722N. Bought them used a few years ago and have never tried them. I like your SC8 surrounds but looks like they are kind of hard to find. I found a great deal on (6) 8340A surrounds but I'm not sure how they compare. I would like to pick your brain a bit.


----------



## beastaudio

dropzone7 said:


> Carp,
> 
> Are you in North Carolina? I don't read the forums much anymore but I kind of remember your room.
> 
> I think I bought a sub from you years ago.  Then again, I'm getting old so maybe it was someone else.





carp said:


> No, I'm in Kansas City, must have been a room similar to mine.


Pretty sure that as me?


----------



## dropzone7

beastaudio said:


> Pretty sure that as me?


I remember picking up a sub from a guy in Winston-Salem. Don't even remember what kind it was. Might have been an EPIK or Elemental Designs model. Anyway, it was a basement. 

I don't even own a sub at the moment. I'm starting from scratch. New house (new to me anyway), new room, new equipment. It's no basement but this is better than my last space.


----------



## beastaudio

dropzone7 said:


> I remember picking up a sub from a guy in Winston-Salem. Don't even remember what kind it was. Might have been an EPIK or Elemental Designs model. Anyway, it was a basement.
> 
> I don't even own a sub at the moment. I'm starting from scratch. New house (new to me anyway), new room, new equipment. It's no basement but this is better than my last space.


I've had enough folks come through over the years I just can't remember anymore. I am pretty sure we at least discussed it, but no, definitely never got a sub from me


----------



## dropzone7

beastaudio said:


> I've had enough folks come through over the years I just can't remember anymore. I am pretty sure we at least discussed it, but no, definitely never got a sub from me


What would you recommend I look for to power (3) JBL 3722N? All I have at the moment is a mid-range Denon receiver. I was looking at Crown XLS amps as probably the most obvious choice for JBL speakers. My room will be about 95% home theater duty. I know less than nothing about these speakers really.


----------



## beastaudio

The XLS drivecore amps are solid. You won't need much to power them but if you want assurance on no fans spooling up, nor having to do a fan mod, emotiva is still a fine one-box solution. Just stick with gen3 or later as the gains are lower on those and help with hiss.


----------



## dropzone7

beastaudio said:


> The XLS drivecore amps are solid. You won't need much to power them but if you want assurance on no fans spooling up, nor having to do a fan mod, emotiva is still a fine one-box solution. Just stick with gen3 or later as the gains are lower on those and help with hiss.


Yeah, fans probably won't be a concern for what I have in mind. I don't plan to split the earth's crust with sound waves the way it looks like you probably do!  My wife will probably poo poo the whole thing the first time I turn it up a little bit.


----------



## jlpowell84

Carp, have you ever mentioned a comparison between to SCS surround and a Volt surround?


----------



## carp

It's been a long time, but I remember that I liked the coverage of the JBL more. Also I thought they had a sonic signature that matched my 4722n's better than the Volts - but - I never did any blind testing so I can't discount placebo. Both are very capable surrounds.


----------



## jlpowell84

carp said:


> It's been a long time, but I remember that I liked the coverage of the JBL more. Also I thought they had a sonic signature that matched my 4722n's better than the Volts - but - I never did any blind testing so I can't discount placebo. Both are very capable surrounds.


I like that, I will essentially have an upgraded upgraded 4722 when done so having JBL all around I like...The 328 is a viable option to build my own boxes. Only thing I don't like about the SCS is box size but I could also build my own too. I guess I only keep the Volts as viable option in my mind because I have such great memories of them.

Oh do you have the SCS 8 or 12? And 8 of them on surround/atmos duty?


----------



## carp

jlpowell84 said:


> I like that, I will essentially have an upgraded upgraded 4722 when done so having JBL all around I like...The 328 is a viable option to build my own boxes. Only thing I don't like about the SCS is box size but I could also build my own too. I guess I only keep the Volts as viable option in my mind because I have such great memories of them.
> 
> Oh do you have the SCS 8 or 12? And 8 of them on surround/atmos duty?


SCS8's. My front row is so far from the back row, so I have my rear surrounds on the side walls which puts them a little more than 135 degrees form the MLP. In doing so I have to have a speaker I can aim like the SCS8's... I would love to use the in wall/ceiling JBL equivilent but that won't work so well for my rear surrounds. 

A year or so ago I switched my ceiling SCS8's with some RSL in ceiling speakers. I got sick of seeing those speakers hanging from the ceiling and I thought adding some height to the ceiling speakers would help the over head effects. Initially I thought the effects were indeed better, but I think it might have been placebo - ha - I think that about everything. :laugh:

Long story short, I have zero interest in making a change from any of the speakers that I have. The thought doesn't even enter my mind anymore.


----------



## jlpowell84

carp said:


> SCS8's. My front row is so far from the back row, so I have my rear surrounds on the side walls which puts them a little more than 135 degrees form the MLP. In doing so I have to have a speaker I can aim like the SCS8's... I would love to use the in wall/ceiling JBL equivilent but that won't work so well for my rear surrounds.
> 
> A year or so ago I switched my ceiling SCS8's with some RSL in ceiling speakers. I got sick of seeing those speakers hanging from the ceiling and I thought adding some height to the ceiling speakers would help the over head effects. Initially I thought the effects were indeed better, but I think it might have been placebo - ha - I think that about everything. :laugh:
> 
> Long story short, I have zero interest in making a change from any of the speakers that I have. The thought doesn't even enter my mind anymore.


Yea I can see that big SCS8 box really getting to be an eye sore. Why did you choose the RSL? Seems like a 328c one could slant/aim somehow and make a false ceiling insert to conceal them. As I mentioned in other thread I would look into rebuilding the SCS 8 box too.

Yea, I'm stoked to get back to that 4" JBL CD (2452) dynamics and sound with a little BE on top for extra sweetness  Ive bought everything except the diaphragms so far, the 725 per is hard to 'digest.'


----------



## carp

jlpowell84 said:


> Yea I can see that big SCS8 box really getting to be an eye sore. Why did you choose the RSL? Seems like a 328c one could slant/aim somehow and make a false ceiling insert to conceal them. As I mentioned in other thread I would look into rebuilding the SCS 8 box too.
> 
> Yea, I'm stoked to get back to that 4" JBL CD (2452) dynamics and sound with a little BE on top for extra sweetness  Ive bought everything except the diaphragms so far, the 725 per is hard to 'digest.'


The RSL's at the time (they still probably do) had the option to return them if I didn't like them so I figured I'd try them since they are so much cheaper and since I liked them I decided to keep them.


----------



## SBuger

@carp – I’m curious what your thoughts are on your Epson 5040 PJ after owning this projector for a while now, especially regarding HDR.

I’ve got an Epson 5030 (non 4k and non HDR) that I just love the heck out of for SDR 1080p movies in cinema mode. In fact, I’ve been so satisfied with it that I never really felt the need at all to upgrade and have done everything else first like Atmos, blacking out the room, treatments, all the Bass and TR stuff etc. That said though, I’m not a videophile and haven’t seen what a truly high-end top of the line PJ can do. Blacking out my room tremendously helped the 5030 though, like leaps and bounds and still amazes me on normal SDR 1080p content.

But that’s on SDR 1080p material. With 4k and the HDR thing nowadays, tone mapping them with the Oppo 203 back to SDR on the 5030 just leaves most movies looking too darn dark most of the time, always making me feel the need to try to tweak it, usually not making it look much better.

So, I figured it’s probably time to get into a 4k (or at least eshift 4k ) PJ and hopefully not have to deal with the HDR problem anymore. I don’t think I’m quite ready to spend a crap ton of money on a top of the line true 4k PJ just yet and came across the 5040 refurbed the other day. For a little over a grand, makes it hard to pass up, even though looks like it may take a few tries to get a good one. Plus, I seem to love the image the 5030 can throw, at least in standard SDR 1080p. So, I’m sure the 5040 is even better. 

But darn it, the more I read about it, it looks like the newer projectors (Epson or JVC), images can still have major issues with HDR content, making the image way too dark without a bunch of tweaking. I’m sure the right settings with enough tweaking on most projectors, HDR can be great, and is for a lot of folks. But I guess even with all the trouble HDR has caused with dark images on most PJs, it’s here to stay and is the future for the most amazing images possible.

So anyway, over the holidays I think I’ve read about all this until I’m blue in the face, in the 5040 thread as well as a few of the JVC threads and other. Sounds like most of the JVC guys got HDR figured out by using the HD Fury devise to strip the HDR flag, leaving WCG and high res intact, allowing them to use dynamic iris, along with gamma tweaks etc. to get some great, bright, HDR looking images. Same with the Epson 5040 but using HarperVision trickery, oledurt’s settings and others with no NDFury to get great looking results.

All that’s cool, and if I end up with the 5040, I’m sure I’ll try them all. I read so much now though over the last couple of days that it’s all kind of running together LOL, since I haven’t kept up on all the latest PJ and video image stuff. But I think I’ve seen where you said you’ve tried them all with Harpervision, oeldurt, etc settings and may now be back to just plain ole Bright Cinema for not just regular SDR, but HDR too maybe? If so, are you pretty happy with HDR with bright cinema mode and maybe a few tweaks here and there? Or maybe even using a UB900 player to up the gamma slider a little (in the player itself) like Craig Peer was doing at one point (he seemed to be really happy with that) and not even messing with anything else? Im running an Oppo 203 though (as I think you are too) and don't really want to try to get into the other player, as they arn't cheap either.

Anyway, just curious on your thoughts on this in your blacked-out room and close sitting distance on your huge screen. I’m blacked out too and sit close, albeit not as big a screen as yours.

I’m sure I’ll love the Harpervision settings for the HDR 4k discs, but am almost positive the high lamp and fan speed will drive me nuts in my smaller room, at least at my lower nighttime listening levels. Maybe Oledurt’s settings with medium lamp will do the trick and not be too obnoxious sounding. Or maybe the latest firmware updates on the 5040 now compared to those days back in 2017 have helped with the HDR darkness problems and can be ran in eco, or at least medium and in bright cinema or whatever it ‘should’ be in for WCG and HDR and will look good.

Anyway, I’ve got a few decisions to make I guess, but will most likely end up with the Epson 5040 with its price being so low now (at least until I can afford a true high end native 4K at some point, hopefully they’ll have all the HDR problems worked out on them by then too lol). Also, I need an Apple TV devise or Xbox as well to stream some Atmos and 4k from Netflix. Looks like there are now a bunch of great ones that have got the BEQ magic treatment over in the BEQ thread!!  Can’t wait to watch Dark and a bunch of the others 

You still really enjoying your BOSS’s? I know I sure am but took me a while since I tried quite a few diff platforms and configs. I’m settled in with it now though and just ready to enjoy a bunch of content  Of course now, I’ve gotta get this HDR crap lined out too LOL


----------



## carp

@SBuger

Hey Shelby, good to hear from you. I know exactly how you feel about upgrading your projector. I have decided that I am going to stick with my 5040 until either it craps out or some incredible leap forward in projector technology allows HDR to actually matter. IMO projectors are pretty fragile and since I have a good one that has been dependable for a long time I don't want to roll the dice and get something new unless it is a game changer, which in my opinion, none of the projectors in my price range are. 

I do think the 5040 is a pretty significant step up from the 5030 and if I were you I would get one.. but...

Jonathan @Archaea bought one of the refurbished 5040's for around 1100 and it took him 5 or 6 returns to get on that works with no major issues and it is a big headache to go through that - but - a new 5040 is 2 grand so it just depends on what that is worth to you.

Like you I'm not a videophile (haha, says the guy that has velvet covering the entire front half of room :laugh but I love a bright image that pops and the 5040 is great at that. 

On the 5040 I prefer the default Bright Cinema settings to every other setting I have tried. HDR disks would be too dark, but I have the Panasonic player with the HDR dynamic range slider so bumping that up to around +4 ish does the trick and looks great to my eyes. I also prefer the default Bright Cinema for 1080p sources too. An added benifit to that is being able to run in it eco mode. 

Yeah, I'm loving my boss setup. I still can't quite decide exactly how I want it setup for all content. Lately I wasn't getting the wow factor, so during Stranger Things season 3 I said screw it and removed the LPF and the fun was back without being distracting at all so I'm going to run it wide open again for awhile and see what I think. IMO it's really good no matter how you tweak it, just different flavors of good. 

Jonathan will probably chime in here on what he thinks about grabbing a refurbished 5040, I know he was really frustrated going through the return process over and over. I have been there too with Epson with the 8350, it took 6 tries with that model for me to get a good one and 3 or 4 with the 3500. When I had an issue my mindset was that they would send me a bad unit, and to be surprised if it was a good one. That kept me from being too upset when projector after projector had problems. 

The fact that it's a refurbished unit pretty much means 100 percent that something will be wrong with it, so make sure you are ok with that going in. 

2 grand for a new one is still a great deal for this projector though, so don't completly rule that out. 

As usual I keep going back and forth with my advice so I'm probably not much help.


----------



## Archaea

I’m really soured on Epson projectors. I won’t buy any more.

Last time it took me five 8350UBs to get a good one. This time it took me six 5040UBs to get a good one. 

That’s just unacceptable. My time and stress levels don’t need that exercise ever again.

HDR on the 5040 is a back. Like most projectors. It throws a good looking picture with HarperVision settings on HDR.

Figure out if you are willing to play refurb roulette.
Lots of units they have to out are plum awful.

I’d probably buy a JVC RS540 or the BenQ HT-9060 refurbed if I was going to do it again and knew the headache I’d have with the Epson.


----------



## SBuger

Thanks for the reply’s guys, I really appreciate it!!

@carp – ah ok, you are running the Panasonic player then and using the HDR slider to help bump up the brightness. Yeah, I love a bright image that ‘pop’ too, and probably why I like the 5030 so much for normal SDR content. The Epson’s seem to be great at this!

Can the Panasonic stream Netflix so the HDR slider can take effect on those streaming sources too? Also, I’ve got a ton of MKV movie files on an external drive that play great (for the most part) through the Oppo 203 connected with a USB cable. If you’ve ever tried this, did the Panny player have any problems playing the MKV files? EDIT: is yours the UB900 or UB820 or other? Im guessing the 820 will have the HDR slider control as well for about half the price. 

But yeah, buying a refurb through that site kinda scares me a bit, since Jonathan had so much trouble. I did read some about that in that thread. Having to go through 6 units for the 5040 (and 5 on the other) to get a good one is just insane and not right!! That would leave a bad taste in anyone’s mouth to say the least!! Thanks @Archaea for chiming in and mentioning the other 2 projectors!! Will have to think about those as well. And if I do decide to go with the 5040, will def have decide if it’s worth the low price to play refurb roulette or just bite the bullet and buy a new one for double the price. Hmmmm …decisions, decisions, I hate them!!

It does seem kina of crazy though (like I think you mentioned somewhere (maybe in that thread)) that there are so many available now through that site. So not just 2-3 ever now and then with everyone refreshing browsers all the time hoping to get lucky and score one. I just checked again (as I’ve been doing for the last 3-4 days) and there is still a bunch available these days. Usually over a hundred. 160 this morning it looks like. Maybe it is like I think you said (or someone) had said, that maybe they are now selling new units as refurbs since they are moving them so quickly. IDK, weird and not sure what to think of it all and what path I should take.

Anyway, thanks again you guys for your thoughts on it all!! Also, great to hear your still loving the BOSS Sheldon. Yep your right, it seems to be pretty darn good with different tweaks, just a different flavor of good. Cool that you and Jonathon are both running them now!! It really is a pretty amazing way to get your TR huh!! I’m still running my Crowsons and VNFs, but adding in the BOSS has made my TR felt better and more realistic than it ever has, which makes me super happy   I run my a little different, more like Scott’s sub riser with no isos on bottom (a few on top though) that basically seals it (giving me SPL too) and think I’ve found the magic LPF (or negative HS in my case) that feels just about right for my setup for movies. I haven’t felt the need to tweak it much at all over the last couple of weeks, which is saying a lot for me!!! hahahaha

Seems to be lots of ways the BOSS can be implemented and integrated into one's system, which is way cool!!


----------



## Archaea

Molon_Labe said:


> Are these new Epson projectors a big step up to say a mid-tier Sony 55es 1080p projector? The reviews seem great, but is there a noticeable difference or should I wait a couple more years for tech to improve and pricing to drop. I am at 13 feet from 126" screen.




Sony 55ES is still a really nice projector. I think I’d just sit tight until you find a deal on a true 18Gbs projector that fully supports HDR and 60Hz 4K. (And probably isn’t e-shift.). This 5040UB is only 10Gbps so it only supports 8 bit color and a max of 30hz at 4k. (No 12 bit color and 60Hz at 4k). Carp will attest that 4K on a computer desktop with eshift is still pretty poor quality text and being limited to 30hz makes it pretty jerky jerky with mouse movement in games too. Not a fan of this projector for 4K windows desktop use, but 1080p looks great on the desktop or pc gaming. Especially if you turn off 4k image enhancement for text (Epsons name for their e-shift). Images look better with image enhancement on — 4k and 1080p text look better with it off. Pick your poison.

@SBuger, if you buy the Epson make sure and do the free bulb rebate. They apparently give out free bulbs with purchase if you file - even though they aren’t supposed to qualify as refurbs. (Only new). I do expect they are selling new units as refurbs now. There’s no real other explanation for the huge quantity jump form 1-3 a week they had to sell to effectively an unlimited supply. They throw a really nice image when you get a good one — but I have a bit of a hollow feeling because I had a JVC RS 600 in my room and it looked like the next tier up to me, and I regret a bit not buying the RS540. However the $1200 vs $3800 price-point delta was a nice consolation prize. My next projector will be

HDMI 2.1
True 4K
LED or Laser based

This Epson 5040UB will hold me till then. I hope Panasonic re-enters the home theater projector market. They were my favorite overall for multiple generations but stopped in 2012 with the still impressive AE8000U. This 2017 model epson was a step up from the Panasonic though.

Doug, @d_c bought a 5040UB and his was fine the first go. He likes it better than his JVC RS-420, so he thinks he’ll sell the JVC. It’s significantly brighter than the JVC.


----------



## Molon_Labe

Archaea said:


> Sony 55ES is still a really nice projector. I think I’d just sit tight until you find a deal on a true 18Gbs projector that fully supports HDR and 60Hz 4K. (And probably isn’t e-shift.). Carp will attest that 4K on a computer desktop with eshift is still pretty poor text


That was my thought as well -thanks for the confirmation. I have the spare lamp that came with the Sony when I bought it. I will just install it and when it reaches 2k hours come back and revisit the projector scene in a couple years.


----------



## carp

SBuger said:


> Thanks for the reply’s guys, I really appreciate it!!
> 
> @carp – ah ok, you are running the Panasonic player then and using the HDR slider to help bump up the brightness. Yeah, I love a bright image that ‘pop’ too, and probably why I like the 5030 so much for normal SDR content. The Epson’s seem to be great at this!
> 
> Can the Panasonic stream Netflix so the HDR slider can take effect on those streaming sources too? Also, I’ve got a ton of MKV movie files on an external drive that play great (for the most part) through the Oppo 203 connected with a USB cable. If you’ve ever tried this, did the Panny player have any problems playing the MKV files? EDIT: is yours the UB900 or UB820 or other? Im guessing the 820 will have the HDR slider control as well for about half the price.
> 
> But yeah, buying a refurb through that site kinda scares me a bit, since Jonathan had so much trouble. I did read some about that in that thread. Having to go through 6 units for the 5040 (and 5 on the other) to get a good one is just insane and not right!! That would leave a bad taste in anyone’s mouth to say the least!! Thanks @Archaea for chiming in and mentioning the other 2 projectors!! Will have to think about those as well. And if I do decide to go with the 5040, will def have decide if it’s worth the low price to play refurb roulette or just bite the bullet and buy a new one for double the price. Hmmmm …decisions, decisions, I hate them!!
> 
> It does seem kina of crazy though (like I think you mentioned somewhere (maybe in that thread)) that there are so many available now through that site. So not just 2-3 ever now and then with everyone refreshing browsers all the time hoping to get lucky and score one. I just checked again (as I’ve been doing for the last 3-4 days) and there is still a bunch available these days. Usually over a hundred. 160 this morning it looks like. Maybe it is like I think you said (or someone) had said, that maybe they are now selling new units as refurbs since they are moving them so quickly. IDK, weird and not sure what to think of it all and what path I should take.
> 
> Anyway, thanks again you guys for your thoughts on it all!! Also, great to hear your still loving the BOSS Sheldon. Yep your right, it seems to be pretty darn good with different tweaks, just a different flavor of good. Cool that you and Jonathon are both running them now!! It really is a pretty amazing way to get your TR huh!! I’m still running my Crowsons and VNFs, but adding in the BOSS has made my TR felt better and more realistic than it ever has, which makes me super happy   I run my a little different, more like Scott’s sub riser with no isos on bottom (a few on top though) that basically seals it (giving me SPL too) and think I’ve found the magic LPF (or negative HS in my case) that feels just about right for my setup for movies. I haven’t felt the need to tweak it much at all over the last couple of weeks, which is saying a lot for me!!! hahahaha
> 
> Seems to be lots of ways the BOSS can be implemented and integrated into one's system, which is way cool!!



I can't seem to get HDR when streaming from the Panasonic player, nor from the Roku but I can get HDR from the XBox 1S. However, I don't like it. I just watched season 3 of Sneaky Pete from Amazon and on the XBox HDR looks (of course) too dark and the 4K non-HDR using the Roku looks so much better. 

Hmmm so you have a traditional (non mini boss) and are using NO isolators under the riser but you are using isolators between the riser and the seating? Is that what you are saying? I'll have to try that on my back row since I have a traditional riser back there. 

What numbers are you using on your negative high shelf?


----------



## SBuger

carp said:


> I can't seem to get HDR when streaming from the Panasonic player, nor from the Roku but I can get HDR from the XBox 1S. However, I don't like it. I just watched season 3 of Sneaky Pete from Amazon and on the XBox HDR looks (of course) too dark and the 4K non-HDR using the Roku looks so much better.
> 
> Hmmm so you have a traditional (non mini boss) and are using NO isolators under the riser but you are using isolators between the riser and the seating? Is that what you are saying? I'll have to try that on my back row since I have a traditional riser back there.
> 
> What numbers are you using on your negative high shelf?


Ah ok, Xbox should be able to get Atmos too if Atmos is offered on certain titles.

Yes correct on the boss riser. It’s a full size and just sits on the carpet and pad with NO isolators, making it sealed (or sealed for the most part). So I guess not really a BOSS riser any more since it’s no longer open baffle. It’s way more of a sub riser now, just using the carpet and pad of the floor to seal it from the bottom, instead of an actual bottom on the riser itself.

Kind of crazy I guess since floated with isos is what is prescribed, but works better in my system like this as a sub riser. I like the feel of it better and measures better with VibSensor as well with more authority down super low. Pretty crazy that I get quite a bit more ULF TR out of it like this (even with no LS) and doesn’t ever bottom (at least at my highest listening levels, which is around ref bass levels at my loudest).

The feel is a little different than floated on isos (partially less bounce feel I guess you could say), but feels extremely realistic to me. It also doesn’t have the jiggly jello feel either, which you may or may not like. 

But yes, I also am running a few isos on top of the platform in between the Crowson MAs in the back. Mainly because there are so many little feet on my HT seats, that they are needed in the back since I have the MAs (2 per seat) on the back inner framing feet of the seats. The isos go in the back outer feet. Then just using blocks for the front of the seat feet instead of isos. I did quite a bit of testing and this felt the best on my seats setup like this. So just these isos on top in the back (4 total for 3 seats) soften the TR just enough making the ULF TR feel a little better than without any.

Out of all the BOSS platforms and configs I’ve tried, (even 3 of my 18’s mounted cantilevered) this one just felt the best setup like this. Measured the best too, at least down low in ULF territory.

Yeah try it, you may really like it. But then again, may not be as good as the way you have it floated now, especially since your riser is quite a bit bigger and heavier than mine and with less drivers. Might be worth a try though. Ya never know.

Maybe the reason it works so well for me, is that my riser is fairly small at 40” x 8’ and only 6” tall, plus has 6 of the 12” JBLs in it. Just 3 of the drivers works pretty darn good though, but 6 is definitely more powerful.

So for the negative HS, through a lot of experimenting with a variety of good movie demo, I really like it set at 34hz/-10db/Q 0.9. This rolls it off pretty good above 35-40hz, but can be adjusted pretty easy for more gradual slope from low to to high if desired, and or just bump up or lower where the frequency is set. I mainly just use the negative HS in place of the LPF because the timing is better with my VNF subs. I do the same on the MAs, although I have the MAs set at a lower frequency. LPFs introduce delay, whereas HSs don’t (or not nearly as much anyway).

But yeah, pretty crazy the amount of fantastic feeling TR the full size BOSS riser can dish out, especially down low, just setting on the carpet and pad with no isos. Surprised the crap out of me actually LOL. That so goes against the way is prescribed and ‘suppose’ to work . But hey, I’ll take it no matter the reason. Gotta go with what feels the best I say, whether it ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’ be better.

Just to give you an idea of the TR hat this thing is capable of setting on the floor with no isos under it, check out these VS measurements with BOSS/subwoofer riser only (no VNFs or MAs in be mix).

White Noise 0-50hz on the left and EOT intro on the right (where I have it set in the mix at ref levels) and pretty easily pegs the Z axis LIMIT and hits over 1e-00 down towards 10hz. And without bottoming too, which was a nice surprise as well. Plus no LS on the bottom end either, just the negative HS (well actually on these graphs I had it set as LPF @ 35hz with BW 12db/oct slope, but sma Eli d of shape with the negative HS).










More pics and info about it all in my thread, but thought I’d at least post these two VS graphs to show what it can do with no isos. Pretty crazy I thought, and ended up loving the way it feels. Your floated BOSS may give similar readings though and may feel better to you. Good VSs or not though, you gotta go with what feels best. But it’s nice when the objective lines up with the subjective. It does happen sometimes lol

The EOT intro VS reads real similar to Sott’s subriser with his 2 18’s (although his is set to g’s and mine to m’s) and follows the PVA of that intro just about perfectly, like we want. That was pretty cool too I thought that they read so similar. Ha, guess it’s basically like setting on a sub cab itself and can be pretty darn good for TR .


----------



## carp

I spent part of the last couple of days trying out what you are doing but with the front row mini risers (I have 2 risers for the 4 chairs, 2 chairs per riser). I took out the isolators under the plywood and put in blocks of wood. Ha, what do you know... still really damn good. I did lose quite a bit below 15 hz though, but I was shocked how it was just as good above that. You even get a bit more punch in the higher up bass which makes sense. So, the decision is to stick with that which has the advantages of not having a jiggly seat that not only moves quite a bit when I shift, but you can really feel the people next to you when they shift and also punchier bass up high - OR - go back to the isolators and get more feel below 15hz. 

I haven't tried it with the full riser because it's so damn heavy I just don't want to mess with it right now. Getting it high enough to get the isolators out is a pulled lat waiting to happen. :laugh:

Now it's time to try the settings you like with the negative high shelf. Thanks for all the info!!


----------



## ChldsPlay

I don't think I can do a boss setup with how my seats are built and my current setup.

I could make it fit if I made it taller, but that would block the view of the back row. I could do the cantilever, but would have to move the seats forward for it to fit, messing up my audio.


----------



## SBuger

carp said:


> I spent part of the last couple of days trying out what you are doing but with the front row mini risers (I have 2 risers for the 4 chairs, 2 chairs per riser). I took out the isolators under the plywood and put in blocks of wood. Ha, what do you know... still really damn good. I did lose quite a bit below 15 hz though, but I was shocked how it was just as good above that. You even get a bit more punch in the higher up bass which makes sense. So, the decision is to stick with that which has the advantages of not having a jiggly seat that not only moves quite a bit when I shift, but you can really feel the people next to you when they shift and also punchier bass up high - OR - go back to the isolators and get more feel below 15hz.
> 
> I haven't tried it with the full riser because it's so damn heavy I just don't want to mess with it right now. Getting it high enough to get the isolators out is a pulled lat waiting to happen. :laugh:
> 
> Now it's time to try the settings you like with the negative high shelf. Thanks for all the info!!


No prob! Cool that you tried it on your front row mini risers. Interesting that it felt the same or better/punchier above 15hz, but lost a lot under 15hz.

I think mine feels a little punchier too without the isos, but actually get more below 15hz. Part of the reason may be that with no isos and being a full riser, it brings my suspended floor into it more, which is where my floor is best between 10-14hz. So I’m sure that helps. But Scott’s subriser looks super strong under 15hz too, even though on mine it is activating the floor since it’s acting as the bottom of the cab sealing it. So I don’t know, maybe it would do it anyway just sitting on carpet and pad over concrete. Tim seems to think it’s partially from so much pressure created in the cavities for ULF that it may be getting a touch of ‘hover’ effect and driving up the ULF TR. But who knows for sure. After he explained his theory a little HERE, it sure may be helping a little.

I hear ya on the wiggle jiggle with isos. I don’t particularly love it when I shift my weight or when someone else does when I had it in full iso mode. Pros and cons I guess.

Yeah dude, be careful if you try it on your full size riser! Like you say, a pulled lat could happen. Even my small riser that weights way less than yours can put the hurt on you if not real careful. In fact I messed with mine so much with experiments that it kind of tweaked my back a while back and it’s still not quite back to normal yet. So if you try it, be real careful and smart about it. Use a pry bar or something if doing it by yourself. Speaking from experience unfortunately, it’s not worth it 

But if you do get it done, it may be as good as your front mini above 15hz, but not lose any below. Hell maybe even gain like mine did. You may need more drivers in it though, since your riser is so much heavier than mine. But maybe not.

On the negative HS, I had been running it at 34hz, but moved it up to 40hz today that felt really good.

I’m thinking you may like it higher, especially with your music. Never know until you try it I guess.


----------



## carp

ChldsPlay said:


> I don't think I can do a boss setup with how my seats are built and my current setup.
> 
> I could make it fit if I made it taller, but that would block the view of the back row. I could do the cantilever, but would have to move the seats forward for it to fit, messing up my audio.


It's hard to read your post because there are a bunch of &#115's in it (not sure if that means I have a virus issue or if you do??) but it looks like you are saying you can't fit a BOSS because the front row would be too high and there isn't enough space between the rows for a cantilevered setup. What about doing what Jonathan did and put the driver in the actual seating? 





SBuger said:


> No prob! Cool that you tried it on your front row mini risers. Interesting that it felt the same or better/punchier above 15hz, but lost a lot under 15hz.
> 
> I think mine feels a little punchier too without the isos, but actually get more below 15hz. Part of the reason may be that with no isos and being a full riser, it brings my suspended floor into it more, which is where my floor is best between 10-14hz. So I’m sure that helps. But Scott’s subriser looks super strong under 15hz too, even though on mine it is activating the floor since it’s acting as the bottom of the cab sealing it. So I don’t know, maybe it would do it anyway just sitting on carpet and pad over concrete. Tim seems to think it’s partially from so much pressure created in the cavities for ULF that it may be getting a touch of ‘hover’ effect and driving up the ULF TR. But who knows for sure. After he explained his theory a little HERE, it sure may be helping a little.
> 
> I hear ya on the wiggle jiggle with isos. I don’t particularly love it when I shift my weight or when someone else does when I had it in full iso mode. Pros and cons I guess.
> 
> Yeah dude, be careful if you try it on your full size riser! Like you say, a pulled lat could happen. Even my small riser that weights way less than yours can put the hurt on you if not real careful. In fact I messed with mine so much with experiments that it kind of tweaked my back a while back and it’s still not quite back to normal yet. So if you try it, be real careful and smart about it. Use a pry bar or something if doing it by yourself. Speaking from experience unfortunately, it’s not worth it
> 
> But if you do get it done, it may be as good as your front mini above 15hz, but not lose any below. Hell maybe even gain like mine did. You may need more drivers in it though, since your riser is so much heavier than mine. But maybe not.
> 
> On the negative HS, I had been running it at 34hz, but moved it up to 40hz today that felt really good.
> 
> I’m thinking you may like it higher, especially with your music. Never know until you try it I guess.



I tried your negative HS and really, really liked it. I also messed with moving it around a bit as I see you have and I think it's just movie and more importantly mood dependent. Watched Power Rangers with the kids tonight with BEQ and your settings with the BOSS cranked up really high and it was a blast. Terrible movie, but with the sound (mixed by Filmmixer as you probably know) I didn't mind at all. It's so nice to end a movie like that and the ears feel nothing. I don't miss the days of having to over boost the audible subs to get the feel and my ears would be raw after a movie like that.


----------



## ChldsPlay

carp said:


> It's hard to read your post because there are a bunch of &#115's in it (not sure if that means I have a virus issue or if you do??) but it looks like you are saying you can't fit a BOSS because the front row would be too high and there isn't enough space between the rows for a cantilevered setup. What about doing what Jonathan did and put the driver in the actual seating?


I think it's an error with the mobile version of the website. I've noticed it a lot lately in people's posts. It seems like it is escaping out of 's' characters. Works fine when it's posted from a computer.

Unfortunately, the construction of the seating is the issue. It's a pretty tight area due to the reclining mechanism. No way to attach it to really attach it to the rear, and the opening underneath is tight. I could probably do it with an 8", maybe 10", driver, but with 12", the diameter of the driver cone is too wide at the point it would get to the chair framing (about 1.75" from the front of the driver). I only have about a 7" gap in one direction. So, I could add more plywood so the cone would be smaller at the point it reached the framing, but that raises the seats.


----------



## carp

ChldsPlay said:


> I think it's an error with the mobile version of the website. I've noticed it a lot lately in people's posts. It seems like it is escaping out of 's' characters. Works fine when it's posted from a computer.
> 
> Unfortunately, the construction of the seating is the issue. It's a pretty tight area due to the reclining mechanism. No way to attach it to really attach it to the rear, and the opening underneath is tight. I could probably do it with an 8", maybe 10", driver, but with 12", the diameter of the driver cone is too wide at the point it would get to the chair framing (about 1.75" from the front of the driver). I only have about a 7" gap in one direction. So, I could add more plywood so the cone would be smaller at the point it reached the framing, but that raises the seats.


Can you raise the rear riser? A year or so ago I raised the rear riser from 10 inches to 14 (and put in a step on each side of the riser) and it helped a lot. I still have a little bit of blockage from heads in the front row if people are sitting upright with no recline but that's the price for having suck a large screen, because the bottom of it is only 19 inches from the floor. I can't go any higher with the rear riser because of the beam on the ceiling is getting too close where people might hit there heads on the way down from the riser. I just miss it at I'm 6' 1". I did put some of those huge child protector pads on it though so it won't hurt too much for tall guys. 

If I had balls (or the work ethic) like Ryan I'd dig into the concrete floor to lower my front row but I have neither. :laugh:


----------



## d_c

I like the 5040 more also. I guess I lucked out on getting a good one the first time 'round. The rs400 on my 140" (130 wide) screen just wasn't bright enough for my taste. BT2020 Off feature on the Oppo 203 helped with the brightness and really looked great with 1080 films and most HDR content, but I still feel like it should have been brighter. I thought the JVC was great on Grant's screen, but it's a smaller screen. Also, I have that huge reef tank in the basement which bleeds light, and sometimes we like to have the lights on when watching stuff, especially sports or if my kid has friends over. I think the 5040 has a grainy look, whereas the JVC is really, really smooth. The blacks are blacker with the JVC as well, and I miss both these things, but not enough to get a smaller screen. 

Do you notice the 5040 being grainy Carp?


----------



## carp

Hmm I don't think so... to me the 5040 looks sharper and the JVC's look more "film like" but I have aging eyes so it could just be me.


----------



## SBuger

carp said:


> I tried your negative HS and really, really liked it. I also messed with moving it around a bit as I see you have and I think it's just movie and more importantly mood dependent. Watched Power Rangers with the kids tonight with BEQ and your settings with the BOSS cranked up really high and it was a blast. Terrible movie, but with the sound (mixed by Filmmixer as you probably know) I didn't mind at all. It's so nice to end a movie like that and the ears feel nothing. I don't miss the days of having to over boost the audible subs to get the feel and my ears would be raw after a movie like that.


Cool! Yeah I think your right, sometimes it really is movie dependent and mood as well for what HS works best. 

Speaking of Power Rangers, I have it but have yet to watch it. Maybe I'll give it a spin soon since you bring it up. Doesn't surprise me though about the movie being terrible, but folks over in the movie bass thread (not the beq thread) use to rave about the bass. Sounds like that and the sound made up nicely for it  

Yeah I hear ya on the ears. I totally agree, and is what sent me on this crazy TR journey a while back. I was just listening too darn loud to try the get feel and fun the factor that I wanted from the bass, and it was just hurting my ears. Raw is a good way to put it. So nice to be able to really feel it now, even at pretty low night time listening levels, keeping it fun


----------



## ChldsPlay

carp said:


> Can you raise the rear riser? A year or so ago I raised the rear riser from 10 inches to 14 (and put in a step on each side of the riser) and it helped a lot. I still have a little bit of blockage from heads in the front row if people are sitting upright with no recline but that's the price for having suck a large screen, because the bottom of it is only 19 inches from the floor. I can't go any higher with the rear riser because of the beam on the ceiling is getting too close where people might hit there heads on the way down from the riser. I just miss it at I'm 6' 1". I did put some of those huge child protector pads on it though so it won't hurt too much for tall guys.
> 
> If I had balls (or the work ethic) like Ryan I'd dig into the concrete floor to lower my front row but I have neither.


Unfortunately not. It's already 15" and I barely have any clearance when I'm up there.


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## jlpowell84

Carp, is the Atmos thread best place to learn placements? I have a small room in the works, a single couch. I know 4 overheads much better than 2. But I'm thinking I could get away with two wall surround behind MLP facing at middle of couch. Def intrigued at the RSL option, if few of you say it's a great budget Atmos then it must be having heard numerous products out there. Anyways I can get the Amtos and surround wired in wall during building phase so I want/need to figure out where I will be putting them! Or I suppose general location but if I can get away with no wires on wall why not...


----------



## carp

jlpowell84 said:


> Carp, is the Atmos thread best place to learn placements? I have a small room in the works, a single couch. I know 4 overheads much better than 2. But I'm thinking I could get away with two wall surround behind MLP facing at middle of couch. Def intrigued at the RSL option, if few of you say it's a great budget Atmos then it must be having heard numerous products out there. Anyways I can get the Amtos and surround wired in wall during building phase so I want/need to figure out where I will be putting them! Or I suppose general location but if I can get away with no wires on wall why not...


 @jlpowell84

Sorry for the late reply!

I'm not sure how 2 overheads compare to 4 because I've always had 4. 

I will say though... I am thinking of going back to moving my side surrounds to behind the listening position. I feel like having surround speakers slightly behind the listener gives you that fully surrounded feel. 

Everytime I go to Archaea's place I like the surround field better than at my own house and he has his side surrounds ar around 100-110 degrees I would estimate. I hear so much more behind me, and I still get a natural side sound field. I also get a better surrounded feel when sitting on my back row couch, probably because the rear surrounds are at around 110 degrees to the center of the back couch seat. 

I plan to do some more experimenting in the next couple weeks and then make a decision on moving my sides and perhaps even getting some RSL's because I'm getting sick of how far into the room the SCS8's stick out. 

Back to your original question, yes that thread is good but in a nut shell make sure that your 7.1 speakers are pretty close to ear height so that you have a large seperation (as far as the angle goes) between them and your ceiling speakers.


----------



## Archaea

Stopped by carp's room briefly last night on my way to jedimastergrants house.

Sheldon's room is ALWAYS a real treat to experience. HUGE screen, great sound, tactile bass beyond the pale!

Always a top shelf experience! Sheldon's BOSS integration with his front row and riser provides tactile feedback that probably would require a seismometer to accurately depict to anyone who hasn't been there. At this point, it's gone to plaid.








I could/would just spend all evening there relaxing, listening, and enjoying! Thanks for letting @stitch1 and I stop by for the short demo session! You've got a great room that just raises the bar every time I experience it!


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## carp

Thanks Jonathan, that was a lot of fun last night both at my place and Grants. However I think the most impressive thing I saw yesterday was the upgrades on Tim's jeep.  

BTW I still say your bass is every bit as punishing at your house. I had rattling teeth to prove it.


----------



## Ladeback

carp said:


> Thanks Jonathan, that was a lot of fun last night both at my place and Grants. However I think the most impressive thing I saw yesterday was the upgrades on Tim's jeep.
> 
> BTW I still say your bass is every bit as punishing at your house. I had rattling teeth to prove it.


I never did get down your way over the summer to check out your updates. Maybe some other time this year or I guess during the craw next year. Kids soccer is in full swing and tough getting away.


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## carp

Ladeback said:


> I never did get down your way over the summer to check out your updates. Maybe some other time this year or I guess during the craw next year. Kids soccer is in full swing and tough getting away.


I hear you, always something going on! I may put my name in for a movie night early next year since it looks like this fall is taken.


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## stitch1

Thanks for the demo. @carp room has changed quite a bit since the last time I was there. It's a very inviting room with super comfortable seating. The BOSS setup is so flexible from amusement ride to subtle added detail. Also the BEQ demo he gave has me ready to add a minidsp to my own setup. Fantastic job with the room. I love the black velvet. 

You should see the Jeep today. I finally cleaned it for the first time since early June. We leave for Colorado Thursday.


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## carp

Thanks Tim! Have fun in Colorado, I felt like a king of the trail in our middle of the road stock Wrangler, I can't imagine what it's like in yours.


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## Ladeback

stitch1 said:


> Thanks for the demo. @carp room has changed quite a bit since the last time I was there. It's a very inviting room with super comfortable seating. The BOSS setup is so flexible from amusement ride to subtle added detail. Also the BEQ demo he gave has me ready to add a minidsp to my own setup. Fantastic job with the room. I love the black velvet.
> 
> You should see the Jeep today. I finally cleaned it for the first time since early June. We leave for Colorado Thursday.


Where you headed to 4 wheel, Telluride? I drove a new Jeep Sahara Unlimited a few weeks ago that a friend was renting for work and now I want one or a Gladiator, but the wife says my truck is paid for so now. :frown:


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## stitch1

Ladeback said:


> Where you headed to 4 wheel, Telluride? I drove a new Jeep Sahara Unlimited a few weeks ago that a friend was renting for work and now I want one or a Gladiator, but the wife says my truck is paid for so now. :frown:


Near there in Ouray. We will be hitting up most of the trials in the area of Telluride, Silverton, and so on. The new Jeeps are pretty nice. My wife had the opposite reaction to them. Her next vehicle will most likely be a Gladiator. We are waiting to see how the diesel does though. That gives us some time to save money. Jeep is pretty proud of their new products. 

To get back on topic. I was talking to a guy last night who is very interested in building a theater in his new home. I told him he should come visit some local rooms or join the theater tour when we do it next. He had some nice amps and things given to him but wasnt ever bit by the home theater bug until now. His idea of good speakers is Sonos.  I think I blew his mind telling him about some of our setups last night.


----------



## beastaudio

Carp what are those ceiling speakers you are currently using's name again? Still happy with them?


----------



## Ladeback

stitch1 said:


> Near there in Ouray. We will be hitting up most of the trials in the area of Telluride, Silverton, and so on. The new Jeeps are pretty nice. My wife had the opposite reaction to them. Her next vehicle will most likely be a Gladiator. We are waiting to see how the diesel does though. That gives us some time to save money. Jeep is pretty proud of their new products.
> 
> SWEET, I've always wanted to go there. With my wife it is either the theater and basement gets finished or a new Jeep, not both. Also waiting to see what the new Bronco will look and preform like.
> 
> Have a safe trip. I miss playing on the rocks and mud.
> 
> To get back on topic. I was talking to a guy last night who is very interested in building a theater in his new home. I told him he should come visit some local rooms or join the theater tour when we do it next. He had some nice amps and things given to him but wasnt ever bit by the home theater bug until now. His idea of good speakers is Sonos.  I think I blew his mind telling him about some of our setups last night.



That's interesting about the Sonos speakers, one of the guys at Best Buy I worked with on buying our new TV wants to go with all wireless Sonos speakers for his theater speakers. I said you can do a lot better then that, but he is in an apartment. I told him to invite the neighbors over and they can't complain. Heck I just would like to get my 15" subs in my Klipsch KPS-400's fixed so they don't hum for more bass.


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Carp what are those ceiling speakers you are currently using's name again? Still happy with them?


Here you go Brandon:

https://rslspeakers.com/c34e-ceiling-speaker/

They works just fine for ceiling speakers. I hear more content from then than I did with the JBL's but I think it's because they are higher up because obviously they are lower quality compared to the SCS8's. 

They work well enough that I haven't thought even one time about replacing them.


----------



## Ladeback

carp said:


> Here you go Brandon:
> 
> https://rslspeakers.com/c34e-ceiling-speaker/
> 
> They works just fine for ceiling speakers. I hear more content from then than I did with the JBL's but I think it's because they are higher up because obviously they are lower quality compared to the SCS8's.
> 
> They work well enough that I haven't thought even one time about replacing them.


I think BIG has recommended these before. I have this paged saved as well for possible DA speakers.


----------



## trhought

Archaea said:


> Stopped by carp's room briefly last night on my way to jedimastergrants house.
> 
> Sheldon's room is ALWAYS a real treat to experience. HUGE screen, great sound, tactile bass beyond the pale!
> 
> Always a top shelf experience! Sheldon's BOSS integration with his front row and riser provides tactile feedback that probably would require a seismometer to accurately depict to anyone who hasn't been there. At this point, it's gone to plaid.
> 
> I could/would just spend all evening there relaxing, listening, and enjoying! Thanks for letting @stitch1 and I stop by for the short demo session! You've got a great room that just raises the bar every time I experience it!


That youtube is hilarious....I know you said it over in the BOSS thread and I thought maybe it's a Missouri/Kansas thing.  I lived in Missouri for a few years but never heard that term before. But, that was back in the mid-90's. That's so funny to watch the youtube now.

Your's and @carp's setups sound way cool. If the opportunity presents itself with the larger get together that's being planned for next year, I'm looking forward to experiencing the different BOSS implementations.


----------



## carp

trhought said:


> That youtube is hilarious....I know you said it over in the BOSS thread and I thought maybe it's a Missouri/Kansas thing.  I lived in Missouri for a few years but never heard that term before. But, that was back in the mid-90's. That's so funny to watch the youtube now.
> 
> Your's and @carp's setups sound way cool. If the opportunity presents itself with the larger get together that's being planned for next year, I'm looking forward to experiencing the different BOSS implementations.


Hey Tim, the creator of the craziness that is BOSS will on on the invite list for sure, it will be great to meet you!  BOSS has been one of my favorite upgrades I've ever done.


----------



## trhought

carp said:


> Hey Tim, the creator of the craziness that is BOSS will on on the invite list for sure, it will be great to meet you!  BOSS has been one of my favorite upgrades I've ever done.


I'm looking forward to the opportunity. Not many AV enthusiasts down here to hang with. You guys are up there are fortunate to have such a great group of folks to take the enjoyment of our hobby to the next level....ahem....to Plaid!


----------



## carp

Tim, you have to watch Spaceballs!


----------



## trhought

Yeah...definitely....I was thinking the same thing after watching the youtube clip.  I presume it's one of those movies best enjoyed in company along with some adult beverages! Looking forward to it.


----------



## carp

trhought said:


> Yeah...definitely....I was thinking the same thing after watching the youtube clip.  I presume it's one of those movies best enjoyed in company along with some adult beverages! Looking forward to it.


Exactly, it's one of those that gets much better over time and reciting lines makes you laugh more than watching the actual movie.


----------



## trhought

carp said:


> Exactly, it's one of those that gets much better over time and reciting lines makes you laugh more than watching the actual movie.


Thought so...a Monty Python kind of thing....we wore those tapes out in college! Not sure how we missed space balls  

Out of curiosity I just googled space balls and found this interesting tidbit from Wikipedia "Tesla Motors has used Spaceballs' starship speeds (Light Speed, Ridiculous Speed, Ludicrous Speed, Plaid Speed) as inspiration for naming their acceleration modes. In homage to Spaceballs, Tesla has Ludicrous Mode for acceleration beyond its Insane Mode, and Plaid Mode, overtop Ludicrous" How cool is that. I've heard about the Ludicrous mode but not the Plaid mode....that's so funny.


----------



## carp

Haha, chuckled reading that. 

Other lines you may have heard:

"She's gone from suck to blow!!"
"I see your schwartz is as big as mine."

"I'm surrounded by a**holes...."
"Keep firing a**holes!!"


----------



## trhought

Ha....I've heard those before! I've gotta check out the movie


----------



## trhought

Just watched the clip.....ROTFL!!


----------



## trhought

Just showed the clip to my 16 y.o. son. He's inviting his friends over this weekend to watch it now.  Amazon Prime has it available to members...both the 4K version and SD version. Looking forward to it!


----------



## carp

trhought said:


> Just showed the clip to my 16 y.o. son. He's inviting his friends over this weekend to watch it now.  Amazon Prime has it available to members...both the 4K version and SD version. Looking forward to it!


If you like it check out other Mel Brooks comedies like Blazing Saddles, History of the World Part I, Young Frankenstein, etc.


----------



## trhought

carp said:


> If you like it check out other Mel Brooks comedies like Blazing Saddles, History of the World Part I, Young Frankenstein, etc.


Thanks for the recommendations carp. That's a great list.....Blazing Saddles brings back some good memories.  Definitely have to check out the other Brooks' classics.


----------



## Ladeback

trhought said:


> Just watched the clip.....ROTFL!!


Tim, I take it you are a young guy, because I see pretty much all all of Mel Brooks movies in the theater and was a kid when Monty Python was on TV. The Life of Brain and The Holey Grail was pretty funny. Check out Blazzing Saddles and Young Frankenstein for sure along with Space Balks. When I went to see Space Balls, it was a Premier and a friend I did a frozen yogurt eating contest. He ate a pint in under 2 minutes and never got brain freeze like me..

May the Schwartz be with you.


----------



## trhought

Ladeback said:


> Tim, I take it you are a young guy, because I see pretty much all all of Mel Brooks movies in the theater and was a kid when Monty Python was on TV. The Life of Brain and The Holey Grail was pretty funny. Check out Blazzing Saddles and Young Frankenstein for sure along with Space Balks. When I went to see Space Balls, it was a Premier and a friend I did a frozen yogurt eating contest. He ate a pint in under 2 minutes and never got brain freeze like me..
> 
> May the Schwartz be with you.


That's funny about the brain freeze.....those things hurt. I can see how that would leave an ever-lasting impression. We're probably not too far apart in age. I just grew up in the middle of nowhere on a farm. The closest theater was 50 miles away and we didn't get a VCR until 1983. The only reason I remember that is because we watched Rambo First Blood at least once a week that summer.  Then it was off to college in the late 80's and that's when the Monty Python marathons happened on the weekends at the frat house. For some reason, Spaceballs wasn't on our radar. But after watching that clip...we missed out on some good times for sure.


----------



## femi

Wow i can't remember the last time i saw spaceballs. That was one of my favorite movie when i was a kid. Actually i saw spaceballs first before i saw any of the star wars movies. I remember watching star war and saying hey that are coping spaceballs...not knowing spaceballs was a spoof off star wars...lol

Femi


----------



## carp

I finally got around to remodeling my HT bathroom. Those of you that have been over surely remember how hideous my basement bathroom was. I finally had enough and got a couple estimates - yikes!! 6700 and 6200. I thought forget that, I'll do it myself. Now, granted their estimates included taking out the shower and putting in some shelves. I changed my mind on that though and kept the shower and I'm glad I did. I had a friend help with cutting the tile and then grouting, I am confident I could do it now but it would have been rough without his help. He also helped with connecting the new sink and toilet. I'm so happy with how it turned out. My favorite upgrades are the floor and ceiling.

Here are a bunch of before and after pictures:


----------



## carp

I updated the first post in the thread with what I've changed in the last few years to the HT and a few pics. 








Carp's Basement


Update: December 2021 The KC group of HT friends recently had Youthman come out from Florida to do videos on 9 of our local rooms. It was a blast, glad we did it, here is my video: Update: January 29 2022 I replaced my JBL in-walls with JBL line array CBT 70j-1's and bought some large...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Frohlich

You could have stacked some 18s in the shower...just saying...slacker!!!!!! LOOKS GREAT!!!!!


----------



## M0ltar

Looks fantastic @carp! I love what you did with the ceiling!


----------



## carp

Thanks guys!
Haha, yeah seeing as how I never use that shower it seems the perfect place to hide some more subs!  
Those ceiling tiles were so easy to work with because they easily bend as you are putting them in the grid but they always pop right back into their correct shape.


----------



## Frohlich

Hit me up next time. I just finished my remodeling job and itching to help out some of my AVS friends!!!


----------



## M0ltar

Taking risers to the next level. I hope that has BOSS in it.


----------



## carp

4th row riser!!


----------



## jedimastergrant

The remodel looks top notch Sheldon. I just hope those fancy new ceiling tiles still move when John Wicks smallest hand gun fires from the adjoining room. That was a feature I could miss.


----------



## carp

jedimastergrant said:


> The remodel looks top notch Sheldon. I just hope those fancy new ceiling tiles still move when John Wicks smallest hand gun fires from the adjoining room. That was a feature I could miss.


Ha, I tested that very thing out last night. No issues with the tiles but the lights rattled like crazy until I used some quake hold. My test scene was the eyeball Blade Runner 2049 scene, maybe I should try JW for the tiles. Being in the bathroom during all that bass is no fun, it's way too much for me. The wall between the HT room and the bathroom flexes way to much to be ok.


----------



## cvinfig

carp said:


> during all that bass is no fun, it's way too much for me


Who are you and what have you done with Sheldon???


----------



## carp

Haha, I'm getting old!!


----------



## carp

I bought an external drive to rip my movies. I started with movies that I only had blu ray copies and that went fine, no issues at all. Now I am ready for 4k disks and I'm getting an error message. 

This is the drive I bought:












Here is the info from Makemkv:











Here is the error messages I get when trying to rip a 4K disk:











I have tried reading through this thread:









Ripping UHD 4k discs with Makemkv: Instructions How-to


Newer Update: Doesn't look like you need to download the hashed keys file manually anymore. MakeMKV will download the necessary info on its own. Makemkv download (pretty straight-forward to install): http://www.makemkv.com/download/ Update: Starting from version 1.14.0 MakeMKV can read...




www.avsforum.com





However, it's like reading greek to me and even if it wasn't I don't know what information is out of date and what is current. Also I don't like reading things like, "be careful or you will brick your drive" etc. 

Can anyone help me with doing what needs to be done to rip 4k disks? I know it's a big favor to ask because I would need it to be very simple and step by step, so I would really appreciate it!  

Thanks!


----------



## Archaea

Looks like you need to patch your firmware from the makemkv info page. Patching firmware should be no different than finding the firmware and double clicking the upgrade program.

Edit looks like this is a bit more involved but here are step by step instructions


Ultimate UHD Drives Flashing Guide Updated 2022 - www.makemkv.com



looks like you need 1.02MK firmware, and you are on version 1.3

Or there is a guy that sells a script to do it here:


Step-by-step guide for the best (IMHO) drive: LG WH16NS60 - Page 9 - www.makemkv.com


----------



## carp

Archaea said:


> Looks like you need to patch your firmware from the makemkv info page. Patching firmware should be no different than finding the firmware and double clicking the upgrade program.
> 
> Edit looks like this is a bit more involved but here are step by step instructions
> 
> 
> Ultimate UHD Drives Flashing Guide Updated 2022 - www.makemkv.com
> 
> 
> 
> looks like you need 1.02MK firmware, and you are on version 1.3
> 
> Or there is a guy that sells a script to do it here:
> 
> 
> Step-by-step guide for the best (IMHO) drive: LG WH16NS60 - Page 9 - www.makemkv.com



Thanks!! I emailed the guy to see if I could buy the script from him.


----------



## Gorilla83

Carp - been a while, checking in to say hey! 

BTW bathroom model looks great! May be coming out to KC sometime soon for some real estate work, would be good to see you guys!!


----------



## carp

Hey Andrew, thanks man! 
Absolutely, let us know, it's been too long.


----------



## Archaea

Sheldon.

We have come up short.  Look at this Rack. I'm flat out embarrassed by mine in this context!
October 2021 AVS Forum Home Theater of the Month Powered by Anthem | Page 4 | AVS Forum


----------



## beastaudio

I dont even know how that is possible. Seriously...


----------



## carp

I prefer my cable management style where you can dig into the mess and pull out random cables that aren't connected to anything.


----------



## Frohlich

I am a firm believer of the mullet approach to HT racks...business in the front, party in the back!!!!


----------



## M0ltar

Archaea said:


> Sheldon.
> 
> We have come up short.  Look at this Rack. I'm flat out embarrassed by mine in this context!
> October 2021 AVS Forum Home Theater of the Month Powered by Anthem | Page 4 | AVS Forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3200461


Man, I need to step up my wiring game. Are those XLR custom length and terminated on site?


----------



## carp

Youthman from youtube came out to KC from Florida to film a bunch of our rooms, it was a lot of fun. Here is my video:


----------



## Gorilla83

Awesome vid carp, so cool!!

Also - what model are those in wall surrounds?


----------



## Ladeback

I really enjoyed it and your room has changed a lot since I was last in it for the crawl back in 2017.


----------



## carp

Gorilla83 said:


> Awesome vid carp, so cool!!
> 
> Also - what model are those in wall surrounds?


Thanks Andrew! They are JBL sp8ll. 



https://support.jbl.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-masterCatalog_Harman/default/dw9da89cab/pdfs/Specification%20Sheet%20-%20SP8II%20(English%20EU).pdf




Nothing special but I was really shocked at how they do just as well as my SCS8's which is odd because they are much lower in sensitivity. 

Having said that, I have never been completely happy with the surround field in my room (I've tried Axioms, then eD's, then Volt 10's, then SCS8's) so I am currently trying out the same JBL line array speakers that Jonathan has. I bought a pair to play with and borrowed a pair of his, so I'm trying them out as side surrounds and rear surrounds. They are definitely better, but I haven't made my mind up yet if it's worth it, both for the money and to go back to speakers that stick out in the room. 


Ladeback said:


> I really enjoyed it and your room has changed a lot since I was last in it for the crawl back in 2017.


Yeah, always making changes after saying I'm done making changes, haha. I ordered a NZ7 the other day.


----------



## carp

I bought a umik and am trying out REW. The first thing I checked was to see if it's measurements were the same or similar to my omnimic, and they are. The omnimic results look smoother but if you compare say 1/6th smoothing on REW to 1/12 smoothing on the Omnimic they are the same, or close enough to be called the same. 

What I can't figure out is how to measure any of the speakers other than the L and R. Does anyone know how to do that?


----------



## Frohlich

No idea about REW...but stopping by to say hi. Saw your Youthman video and I still have fond memories of the JBL 4722s. Hope you are doing well.


----------



## M0ltar

carp said:


> I bought a umik and am trying out REW. The first thing I checked was to see if it's measurements were the same or similar to my omnimic, and they are. The omnimic results look smoother but if you compare say 1/6th smoothing on REW to 1/12 smoothing on the Omnimic they are the same, or close enough to be called the same.
> 
> What I can't figure out is how to measure any of the speakers other than the L and R. Does anyone know how to do that?


Are you using your mic in the 90 degree position?


----------



## carp

Frohlich said:


> No idea about REW...but stopping by to say hi. Saw your Youthman video and I still have fond memories of the JBL 4722s. Hope you are doing well.


Thanks Frolich! Still loving the 4722's. Since the video I made a change with my surround speakers and ordered a NZ7... can't seem to leave well enough alone. 😄


----------



## carp

M0ltar said:


> Are you using her mic in the 90 degree position?


Yes, I've tried 0 and 90. I'm sure I just need to read but I was feeling lazy and just started tinkering.


----------



## JDontee

carp said:


> I bought a umik and am trying out REW. The first thing I checked was to see if it's measurements were the same or similar to my omnimic, and they are. The omnimic results look smoother but if you compare say 1/6th smoothing on REW to 1/12 smoothing on the Omnimic they are the same, or close enough to be called the same.
> 
> What I can't figure out is how to measure any of the speakers other than the L and R. Does anyone know how to do that?


I used a program called eqapo to remap my channels using my htpc. It has been a long time, so there might be a better option now. I always wanted REW to have a 5.1 option instead of stereo. So I'm guessing if it doesn't, and you don't want to learn how to use EQAPO, then you will have to swap your speaker terminals for each speaker. So surround left is plugged into the right channel, then run a sweep. How do you plan on eq'ing for each channel?


----------



## carp

JDontee said:


> I used a program called eqapo to remap my channels using my htpc. It has been a long time, so there might be a better option now. I always wanted REW to have a 5.1 option instead of stereo. So I'm guessing if it doesn't, and you don't want to learn how to use EQAPO, then you will have to swap your speaker terminals for each speaker. So surround left is plugged into the right channel, then run a sweep. How do you plan on eq'ing for each channel?


Yeah, that's what I was thinking that if I couldn't figure it out (or if REW just doesn't do it) I could swap speakers on the avr. I'll check out eqapo, thanks for the idea. 
I'm just playing for now, but I do plan on getting an Onkyo with Dirac and by all accounts using a umik on a PC gives better results than using the built in mic on the Onkyo.


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> Yeah, that's what I was thinking that if I couldn't figure it out (or if REW just doesn't do it) I could swap speakers on the avr. I'll check out eqapo, thanks for the idea.
> I'm just playing for now, but I do plan on getting an Onkyo with Dirac and by all accounts using a umik on a PC gives better results than using the built in mic on the Onkyo.


Been a minute for me too but ASIO4ALL was I believe the plugin you had to dl and then REW should do full 7.1. Not sure about atmos.


----------



## carp

beastaudio said:


> Been a minute for me too but ASIO4ALL was I believe the plugin you had to dl and then REW should do full 7.1. Not sure about atmos.



Thanks Brandon. I'll try that out next time I get the umik out, I really don't want to mess with unplugging/plugging in speakers in the back of the avr.


----------



## carp

I posted the following in the NZ7 etc. owners thread, but thought I'd ask here too since that thread is so active, my question will probably quickly be buried. 

I want to check with you guys to see if I'm possibly making some kind of mistake with the settings on the NZ7 (rs2100 actually).

I have a 158" diagonal 2:35:1 screen. Projector central calculator says I can have a minimum throw of 17' 0". My throw is 17' 7" and it's not far enough, in fact it's not all that close. I have at least a few inches in between the image and my frame.

I went back to projector central to triple check and again it says 17'0" minium. So, I tried JVC's website and it says the minimum throw would be 209.06 inches which is 17' 5" if my math is correct.

I had checked with a physical tape measure but it's tough to get an exact measurement so I bought a laser meter. I tried it several times and each time it said my distance is 17' 7" and change.

Judging from how far I am from filling the screen I would guess I need to be at least 18 feet away.

So, either the calculators are wrong (well, I guess one of the calculators has to be wrong already since they don't match each other) or I am missing something. Not sure what I could be missing, just click "lens control" and zoom as far as I can right? It is interesting that when I'm on the PC input and switch to 2:35:1 the sides of the PC image fill the whole screen (and obviously the image spills over the top and bottom of the screen by quite a lot). How is this possible? When I got to play a 2:35:1 movie (well, 2:39:1 to be exact) the image doesn't fill the screen, just like on my other inputs.

If I have to move back the mount that's fine but I'd rather make 100% sure I need to before I do it.


----------



## sigma722

If you lens shift the image so that its basically shooting horizontally out of your pj, and then zoom all the way in there, does the width hit the edges in that case (i realize about half of the image would be on the ceiling in that case)? I wonder if the lens shift position is making it internally limit the amount of magnification?


----------



## carp

sigma722 said:


> If you lens shift the image so that its basically shooting horizontally out of your pj, and then zoom all the way in there, does the width hit the edges in that case (i realize about half of the image would be on the ceiling in that case)? I wonder if the lens shift position is making it internally limit the amount of magnification?


I think you are on to something here because if I change the aspect to "zoom" then the entire screen is filled with lots of image above and below the screen. So, I guess I could use zoom for 2:35:1 content? I'll play with this tonight.


----------



## sigma722

iirc "zoom" should end up using the full width of the chip, vs the traditional 4k chunk that is in the middle. So it expands whatever is is being displayed to use the full width of the chip. There is another sort of passive benefit to that method as you get a brightness boost (about 11%), so I think it's probably a good solution if it makes you not need to remount your pj, and even if not, still might be worthwhile for the brightness boost. I'm not sure if there is any drawback to it really except maybe, because it's being scaled, you aren't showing a 1:1 pixel from source... but i imagine it scales fine. Might ask DD or Nick about it as they know more than me.


----------



## beastaudio

You could just get an anamorphic lens now. Wanna talk about a game changer for HDR and brightness plus getting all those pixels back for image clarity and sharpness? Boom, you got it. You don't have to go with the crazy paladin DCR either. I got an isco iiiL and it basically stays in place now permanently. I can use the anamorphic modes to cut the image back down to proper 16:9 for those sources, and anamorphic A for scope sources. Generally speaking though I just let the lens stretch 16:9 sources anyways. Yea yea it's not to perfect ratio and everyone looks a little more portly than they should but I don't care. The much larger image is more worth it IMO.


----------



## desertdome

carp said:


> I bought a umik and am trying out REW. The first thing I checked was to see if it's measurements were the same or similar to my omnimic, and they are. The omnimic results look smoother but if you compare say 1/6th smoothing on REW to 1/12 smoothing on the Omnimic they are the same, or close enough to be called the same.
> 
> What I can't figure out is how to measure any of the speakers other than the L and R. Does anyone know how to do that?


For base layer channels, I select JRiver as my audio device in REW and then use JRiver's Order Channels feature to quickly route the test signal to any of the 7.1 channels. For Atmos, I use the Dolby Atmos demo disc that has 7.1.4 and 9.1.6 pink noise and measure channels using REW's RTA. 



carp said:


> I think you are on to something here because if I change the aspect to "zoom" then the entire screen is filled with lots of image above and below the screen. So, I guess I could use zoom for 2:35:1 content? I'll play with this tonight.


Yes, I recommend that you use Zoom for 2.40* content. This will fill the width of the 4096 panel native to the JVC and provide an increase in brightness, too. 



Panamorph said:


> *2.4:1 (rounded up from a more precise 2.393:1), is the aspect ratio of the most popular movies made after about 1972 and increasingly the aspect ratio of streaming content. 2.35:1 is the aspect ratio of many movies before 1972. Unfortunately some people still say “2.35:1” for today’s content but 2.4:1 is certainly more accurate since it represents the industry standard.


----------



## desertdome

beastaudio said:


> You don't have to go with the crazy paladin DCR either.


The Paladin DCR is only necessary for the 100mm lens on the NZ9. The DCR-J1 is for the NZ7/NZ8 and is less expensive.

Going from Zoom to the DCR-J1 adds 23% brightness. For an NZ7, this puts the brightness right between an NZ8 and NZ9.


----------



## carp

The zoom aspect setting worked for filling my screen, I had no idea that existed. Thank goodness... I did not want to have to mess with moving the projector back. Interesting idea on the anamorphic lens, I had no idea you gained THAT much more brightness. Hmmmm


----------



## beastaudio

carp said:


> The zoom aspect setting worked for filling my screen, I had no idea that existed. Thank goodness... I did not want to have to mess with moving the projector back. Interesting idea on the anamorphic lens, I had no idea you gained THAT much more brightness. Hmmmm











Schneider Cinedigitar Anamorphic Lens with Kinotorsion...


PRICE REDUCED! Excellent condition. Upgraded to Paladin DCR. $1200. Also have an Elite Anamorphic Screen and Epson 6010 available. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




www.avsforum.com





$1500 OBO. I'd offer $1200 or something and see if you can absolutely STEAL that. Like I said, I have the ISCO iiiL equivalent and a different type of sled that I really dont even need cuz I keep it on place and use the anamorphic modes to cut the image back down. While the DCR and j1 both are made more specifically for the 4096 wide 4k panel and are a more custom fit, the isco lenses are the finest glass on the planet. New they retailed for over $8000 and if well kept I don''t see why they still shouldn't be that much. Just sayin. I know $1500 isn't chump change but it's far cheaper than the DCR options and arguably still better optics to begin with. With that sled option above I am sure you could figure out a way to make it work pretty easily.


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## Archaea

@desertdome and @SirMaster and others. 

How much does the zoom method for 2.35:1 lose pixel clarity in your opinion and experience over native resolution? Is it something you’d never see aside from test patterns. I will spend some time with this option myself to compare this weekend.


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## SirMaster

Archaea said:


> @desertdome and @SirMaster and others.
> 
> How much does the zoom method for 2.35:1 lose pixel clarity in your opinion and experience over native resolution? Is it something you’d never see aside from test patterns. I will spend some time with this option myself to compare this weekend.


You will never see it outside test patterns, it's such a small scale. Worth the ~12% brightness increase.

Consider anyone using an anamorphic lens is also doing a similar scale to their picture too, so this practice has been common and "accepted" for a long time.

For PC games, simply use native 4096 resolution. Ideally a custom resolution like 4096x1743 for 2.35:1 screens.


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## sigma722

Should be noted that for these anamorphic screens, depending on the brand requires a certain throw distance. The one that beast posted above would be 1.8:1 on your screen width, which for carp would be much longer than he currently has it mounted. The panamorph requires 1.4, which is a bit more reasonable at around 17' throw, but obviously is a bit more expensive to acquire...


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## beastaudio

sigma722 said:


> Should be noted that for these anamorphic screens, depending on the brand requires a certain throw distance. The one that beast posted above would be 1.8:1 on your screen width, which for carp would be much longer than he currently has it mounted. The panamorph requires 1.4, which is a bit more reasonable at around 17' throw, but obviously is a bit more expensive to acquire...


I am actually getting away just fine with mine at 1.55:1. 

Carp, here is the other one without the sled:









SOLD - Runco Rainier (Schneider Cine-Digitar) 1.33x...


Very well taken care of Runco Rainier (Schneider Cine-Digitar) 1.33x anamorphic lens with Runco lens stand with all original hardware. Lens is virtually dust free with no scratches or wear, ring is smooth to turn. Asking $800 shipped and insured. Will ship to Cont. US via FedEx or UPS (your...




www.avsforum.com


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## SirMaster

The reason you need to be at certain throws is because of the size of the light beam coming from the projector’s lens will be too big to fit through the anamorphic lens at certain zooms. 

Sorry, didn’t know if anyone was wondering why that was.


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## beastaudio

SirMaster said:


> The reason you need to be at certain throws is because of the size of the light beam coming from the projector’s lens will be too big to fit through the anamorphic lens at certain zooms.
> 
> Sorry, didn’t know if anyone was wondering why that was.



How familiar are you with the IIIL vs. the IIIs which is the same as the rebadged ranier we are discussing potentially? On my IIIL I am again at 1.55:1 throw ratio and it looks amazing. I know the pincushion could be better moving it back to the suggested 1.8:1 but that wasn't in the cards for me. I am actually at 1.8:1 if you measure to the NON stretched 16:9 image but my assumption was you always measure to the stretched screen width and ratio. All that being said my pincushion is so minimal even at 1.55 that with a just a touch of overscan, it is taken care of and I've never noticed it otherwise.


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## desertdome

I recommend not getting a 1.33 horizontal expansion anamorphic lens for the JVC NZ projectors. You really need a 0.80 vertical compression anamorphic lens in order to properly work with JVC's 4096 pixel panel and anamorphic modes. You can use the 1.33 lens with the JVC projectors if you keep the 3840 pixel width, but then you lose out on the extra brightness by using the entire panel. You also have to remove the lens for 16:9 content.

You can get a 1.25 lens that would work if you can find one, but it won't be as cheap as a new DCR-J1. It is a much larger and heavier lens than the 1.33.


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## sigma722

SirMaster said:


> The reason you need to be at certain throws is because of the size of the light beam coming from the projector’s lens will be too big to fit through the anamorphic lens at certain zooms.
> 
> Sorry, didn’t know if anyone was wondering why that was.





desertdome said:


> I recommend not getting a 1.33 horizontal expansion anamorphic lens for the JVC NZ projectors. You really need a 0.80 vertical compression anamorphic lens in order to properly work with JVC's 4096 pixel panel and anamorphic modes. You can use the 1.33 lens with the JVC projectors if you keep the 3840 pixel width, but then you lose out on the extra brightness by using the entire panel. You also have to remove the lens for 16:9 content.
> 
> You can get a 1.25 lens that would work if you can find one, but it won't be as cheap as a new DCR-J1. It is a much larger and heavier lens than the 1.33.


Was talking with @Archaea a bit on the JVC's zoom mode and was curious if you guys had A:B'd native VS zoom and noticed any difference in sharpness between the two. I know Michael, you recommend zoom for sure (from brightness perspective at least), and I'm assuming you do too Nick(?), so was curious if it was perceivable and essentially if the loss of sharpness was basically just not as important as the gain in brightness that you get.

Obviously for @carp it doesn't matter too much as zoom is required for his situation to not move his projector, but at least for Michael you recommended it outside for improving brightness anyway.

All of the methods for CIH technically alter the source from native slightly, so native would be probably "best" from a resolution perspective, but just wondered if either of you felt like talking a bit more about it i guess lol.

edit: should I have asked this in the owners thread instead I wonder 🤔


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## SirMaster

I zoom because I want a bigger screen and I am throw limited, and I want all the brightness I can get from the projector.

I would say no, you wont ever notice a difference in sharpness with the zoom on a native 4K unit.

Just try toggling it yourself and see.


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## sigma722

SirMaster said:


> Just try toggling it yourself and see.


Yeah, I was thinking about it, but didn't know if you'd done some testing yourself. I imagine Jonathan will probably a:b it one of these days, so I'll probably just leach of his results 😅


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## desertdome

SirMaster said:


> I would say no, you wont ever notice a difference in sharpness with the zoom on a native 4K unit.


I agree.


sigma722 said:


> Yeah, I was thinking about it, but didn't know if you'd done some testing yourself. I imagine Jonathan will probably a:b it one of these days, so I'll probably just leach of his results 😅


He has a Center Stage XD screen and the weave texture doesn't allow one to resolve 4K resolution differences. One could test with white paper to see if one could see a difference, but that doesn't really matter in the end.


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## Archaea

desertdome said:


> I agree.
> 
> He has a Center Stage XD screen and the weave texture doesn't allow one to resolve 4K resolution differences. One could test with white paper to see if one could see a difference, but that doesn't really matter in the end.


@sigma722
I did some testing this weekend with a PC image desktop at two different resolutions - 3840 × 2160 and 4096 × 2160 on the JVC NZ7 testing zoom vs. not with an Excel spreadsheet full of "x" characters on my Centerstage XD screen. My screen was 16x9 or 17x9 depending on Zoom setting at 56" tall. Focus was as good as I could make it for each.

I think the long and short of my testing is that the NZ7 lens or the LCOS panel's focus ability is not fine enough to detect a notable difference between the zoom or no zoom on something so small already. (that little haze or blurring that is always present on these projectors with precision details mostly because of imperfect convergence of the panels I think, covers any softening difference that might otherwise be present). My NZ7 was full pixel aligned with the built in grid pattern (not fine pixel aligned).

I don't think it matters (at least to me - and I AM critical of non native resolution on a computer monitor and can see the softness it creates(and it bothers me))
So with the projector, my conclusion is to use zoom without concern for softening the image because native resolution isn't notably sharper without zoom --- even when pixel peeping (intentionally doing so) nose to the screen.


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## SirMaster

I think it could be "possible" to see a difference in a native 4K PC video game, or desktop text.

But for video, even the sharpest, clean 4K movies and TV shows, good luck lol. Video is just inherently softer than video games due to multiple reasons including lenses, generation loss from CGI work, and the fact that they are only 4:2:0 (1/4 resolution) chroma. Even animated videos are not quite as sharp as video games.

This is why I say just go for the Zoom to gain the 12% brightness.


If you are PC gaming, then just set your PC to native 4096x2160 or 4096x1743 custom res for a 2.35 screen.


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## carp

Updated first post with pictures of the recent changes.









Carp's Basement


Update: December 2021 The KC group of HT friends recently had Youthman come out from Florida to do videos on 9 of our local rooms. It was a blast, glad we did it, here is my video: Update: January 29 2022 I replaced my JBL in-walls with JBL line array CBT 70j-1's and bought some large...




www.avsforum.com






New projector, new side surround and rear surround speakers, lots of new acoustic panels. Loving the new speakers, and the panels are making at least as big of an improvement in sound. I really like it now, but I'll probably buy some more of the etsy diffusion panels for the ceiling in the back of the room. I'm going to wait a while though and let this new sound completely sink in. Here are the panels I bought, the pics of the speakers (love the JBL line arrays, ha, guess I already said that) and projector are on the first post. I did run the new speakers with no change in acoustic treatments for a few weeks so I would know how much of the improvement is due to the speakers and how much is due to the acoustic treatments. Diffusion is the stuff. 


I bought 36 1'x1' geofuser diffusion panels.









GeoFusor™ 11


The brand new Auralex GeoFusor combines highly effective diffusion with a contemporary design aesthetic. Its unique geodesic dome shape creates a uniform and highly dispersive pattern which can counter standing waves and eliminate flutter echo.




auralex.com





4 2' x 2' geofuser panels









GeoFusor™ 22


The Auralex GeoFusor combines highly effective diffusion with a contemporary design aesthetic. Its unique geodesic dome shape creates a uniform and highly dispersive pattern which can counter standing waves and eliminate flutter echo.




auralex.com





acoustic foam absorption from ebay:









3 1/2" Thick Studio Acoustic Soundproofing Foam Kit overall size 50"x 84" | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 3 1/2" Thick Studio Acoustic Soundproofing Foam Kit overall size 50"x 84" at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





Acoustically transparent velvet from Hobby Lobby to cover the panels in the front of the room:









Black Velvet Fabric | Hobby Lobby | 1427764


Get Black Velvet Fabric online or find other Black products from HobbyLobby.com




www.hobbylobby.com





And 2 diffusion panels from Etsy:









DIY Ceiling 3lb Acoustic Skyline Sound Diffuser Studio - Etsy


This Audio item by Skylined24gmailcom has 95 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Midland, MI. Listed on Dec 19, 2022




www.etsy.com


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## COACH2369

Wait....they have acoustic transparent velvet?!?


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## carp

COACH2369 said:


> Wait....they have acoustic transparent velvet?!?


Hey Coach, check this out. 









Acoustic Transparency of Royalty 3 Velvet, Stretch...


@TonyHT was asking about the acoustic transparency of some black materials in my AT screens thread so I figured I'd apply the same approach to some of the black materials I have on hand. That includes these https://www.joann.com/royalty-3-velvet/xprd728568.html...




www.avsforum.com





It is NOT as black/light absorbing as the JoAnn Royalty 3 velvet that I have. I wish it were... but it's really good, far better than using GOM and measures just as good as GOM.


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## COACH2369

First of all. I must say, a great game last night. Sorry my Bengals came back and won. 

I will have to check it out. I would love to rewrap the two front panels in velvet. They have speakers behind them, so I wasn't sure.


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## carp

COACH2369 said:


> First of all. I must say, a great game last night. Sorry my Bengals came back and won.
> 
> I will have to check it out. I would love to rewrap the two front panels in velvet. They have speakers behind them, so I wasn't sure.


Good game for sure, hopefully many more to come between Chiefs/Bengals/Bills. 

It's amazing how fast a fan base can get spoiled, I hear lots of grumbling today about how poorly the Chiefs played. 4 AFC Championship games in a row isn't enough?!?! 

I lived through the 80's when we made the playoffs once and lost in the first round and then 9 straight one and done playoff appearances in the 90's - 00's. I know you guys had a similar run of consecutive playoff losses. Painful. 

That's an impressive turn around in such a short time, good luck in the Superbowl! I admit that I'll by pulling for the Rams for the simple fact that I have always liked Stafford and felt bad for him being stuck on an awful team. However if the Bengals win I won't be upset about it. 

What are the panels now? GOM? I think you will like this a lot better. I wish it were as dark as the rest of my velvet.. but I'll take it.


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## COACH2369

I hope it isn't an one year thing for the Bengals. I was in the 6th grade the last time the Bengals made it this far. Been a long 33 years. Ha.

I am currently using DMD fabric.
Good chance I might swap it out for the stretch velvet.


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## carp

2 snow days and a long weekend (Presidents Day tomorrow) spells trouble for me. Operation tear the room apart commenced on Thursday and I'm getting closer to being done tonight. 

So, here's the thing. It's bugged me for years that my subs stacks stick out further than my L and R speakers. They stick out around 6 inches further, and since the subs go almost to the ceiling it's like my mains are in a cabinet. I knew some day I would remedy the situation, and this mini early spring break was the perfect time. 

In this picture you can see what I'm talking about. 








I knew that I had some space behind my front wall because the previous owners put wood paneling on top of the drywall, and when I had the basement finished I many years ago I just had them put drywall on top of the wood paneling so if you include the baseboard I have over 5.5 inches of room that I can move back the subs if I cut huge holes in the wall. Should be the perfect amount... here goes....


























Ahhh perfect. The subs are now flush with the L and R speakers. 

While I was at it I figured I'd find out once in for all if I made the right decision in loading up the entire front wall with insulation. 

I knew that I liked it better than no treatments, but when I first put in the insulation over 5 years ago I did it all at once so there is no way to know if I over did it and if I would have liked it better with some insulation but some bare wall, or maybe some diffusion mixed in. 

I had to remove a lot of insulation just to be able to get to the sub stacks to movie them, so I removed the rest of it and was down to bare wall. I listened to music and movie clips and it was ok, but I notice that more of the sound seemed to be coming from the front of the room. It was harder to hear sounds behind me. I think it's because the reflections off the front wall were messing with my ears/brain. Also, the bass sounded boomier. 

Instead of putting back all the insulation I put it back in small increments. At first all I did was line the side of the sub stacks and the top of the sub stacks and then I listened for a while. Next I added some along the ceiing and listened some more. Then between the LRC, then more in the middle, etc., etc., each step I listened for a while and each time either I couldn't tell much of a difference or I heard an improvement so I kept going. Eventually I ended up back where i started, the whole wall covered in pink. This time I did a lot of shelving so the insulation isn't nearly as compressed (I have a lot of leftover insulation). 

I should have taken more pictures and taken measurements as I went, but I just wanted to get it done. I also moved my 2 2'x2' skyline diffusors up on the front wall at one point to see what I thought, I couldn't tell a difference so I didn't keep them there and just kept going with absorption. 

Here is what it looks like now:








Ahhhh finally the subs are flush with the speakers!








Did all this make a difference? Who knows. I'm listening to 2 channel music right now and I swear the imaging is wider but I'm completely open to the fact that it's probably placebo. Who cares... placebo is real man. 😄 

I also feel like the mid bass is a little tighter since the insulation is much less compact than before. 

Again.. it's probably not. But... 

"It's not a lie if you believe it." George Costanza

Tomorrow I'll but the black backing up to cover all the pink and then put up velvet above/below/sides of the screen.


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## carp

I didn't address the obvious question - why not just move out the screen 6 inches and move up the speakers?

2 reasons. 1 it messes up the viewing angle from my back row couch. My screen is huge and pretty low on the wall and I don't want to move my screen up even an inch. 
2, my new JVC projector just barely fills the screen with it's 17' 7" throw and I don't want to move it back because I can't access that without drilling through a joist and my 35 foot HDMI cable just barely reaches as is so I would have to buy a new cord. 
Still, reason #1 is the biggest factor.


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## carp

I forgot.. reason #3 is the sub stack on the left side partially blocked the closet that has all my AV equipment, it's a real pain moving new gear in and out - not anymore!


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## Ladeback

Looks good. With moving all those speakers and subs you didn't need to work out this weekend.


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## carp

Oh yes, I'll use any excuse I can find to skip working out - especially leg day. 😄


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## shivaji

The pink is fiberglass insulation, yes?


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## carp

Yes, here it is:

Owens Corning R-13 Kraft Faced Fiberglass Insulation Continuous Roll 15 in. x 32 ft. RF10 - The Home Depot


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## Archaea

Sheldon is this the tape you still use on your tactile transducer and rubber hudson hi fi feet?
Amazon.com: XFasten Extra Strength Double-Sided Tape, White, 3/4-Inch x 15-Yard (Pack of 3) - Extra Sticky for Heavy Duty Bonding (15 Yards per Roll) : Industrial & Scientific

Has it been holding up well? Or have you moved onto something else?

The Hudson HiFi feet on my chairs just keep falling off no matter what I try. I haven't tried any of the doublesided tape yet. Industrial Rubber Cement has worked the best so far (still short of the original adhesive which failed after a year or two), but I noticed they are falling off again after a few months of the rubber cement.


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## carp

I use inner tubes now, in the past I just used the adhesive that came with the isolators. 

I did use that kind of double sided tape to seal the innertubes that surround the drivers to get an airtight seal, but I never used it on the Hudsons. 

That sucks that you're still having problems with that... there has to be some kind of industrial strength type stuff that would be permanent? I'm sure you've looked into though so I guess not. 😕


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## fooby

Thanks for documenting so much if your build here, really fun to watch. If I'm following the timeline correctly, you had combo panels at your first wall reflection points and swapped them out for the geofusor/absorption checkerboard pattern. I know Nyal uses this pattern a lot but I've also recently seen him use combo panels at the first reflection points. What prompted this change for you? And are you able to articulate the difference you've heard after the change? Thanks again!


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## carp

Thanks!
You ask what prompted the change, for me it's the fact that I'm always curious if I can make the sound better plus I just like experimenting. I was exchanging pm's with @harrisu about trying to accomplish two things in my room. 1) Make the room sound bigger and more open, and 2) Create a better surround field bubble/better immersion. 

He recommended trying the checkerboard pattern at the first reflection points for walls and ceiling as a starting point, and I combined that with some of what I've learned elsewhere about using more diffusion at the back of the room (still some absorption but less than at the front). 

Some of this could be placebo (shoot, all of it could be haha) but I do feel like I have improved on making the room sound bigger. I still feel like my surround bubble is also improved but could be better, and I just bought a Onkyo RZ50 with Dirac so I'm hoping it will help more in that department. 

I really like the sound I have now, for both movies and music. I think the room sounds the best it ever has but I know there is always room for improvement. I'm going to buy some more skyline diffusers for the rear of the room, I only have 2 of them now on the rear wall. I plan to buy more for the side rear walls and also rear ceiling area.


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## fooby

Great reply and background info, very helpful. I'm trying to DIY my treatment to save some money, and have been planning on a checkerboard diffusion/absorption pattern in key locations, largely inspired by Grimani and Nyal. Diffusion products are pricey, but I was considering using scatter plates since they're pretty cheap, which is what drew me to your more recent update. I need to find a deal on those Geofusor 11s! Thanks again!


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## harrisu

carp said:


> Thanks!
> You ask what prompted the change, for me it's the fact that I'm always curious if I can make the sound better plus I just like experimenting. I was exchanging pm's with @harrisu about trying to accomplish two things in my room. 1) Make the room sound bigger and more open, and 2) Create a better surround field bubble/better immersion.
> 
> He recommended trying the checkerboard pattern at the first reflection points for walls and ceiling as a starting point, and I combined that with some of what I've learned elsewhere about using more diffusion at the back of the room (still some absorption but less than at the front).
> 
> Some of this could be placebo (shoot, all of it could be haha) but I do feel like I have improved on making the room sound bigger. I still feel like my surround bubble is also improved but could be better, and I just bought a Onkyo RZ50 with Dirac so I'm hoping it will help more in that department.
> 
> I really like the sound I have now, for both movies and music. I think the room sounds the best it ever has but I know there is always room for improvement. I'm going to buy some more skyline diffusers for the rear of the room, I only have 2 of them now on the rear wall. I plan to buy more for the side rear walls and also rear ceiling area.


Please keep in mind that too much diffusion = confusion. Key is to progress slowly. Add a couple and see how it changes the sound and stay with it for a week to assure you like the change then move to next change .


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## carp

Good advice for sure, go slow. I did everything a step at a time to make sure I liked the change before adding more.


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## carp

I somehow managed to lose my cord to my umik-1. I can't tell what cord it is. 
Does anyone know which cord to buy for it? Sounds like the umik has had different cords, minidsp says that they used 
"miniUSB connector (v1 / Before Jan 2021)
USB Type C connector (v2 / After Jan 2021)"

Neither of those look like what I had. I searched the house for a cord that would fit, and found one, it is the cord to my kids Nintendo something or other. However, it's a power cord not usb so they are not in danger of me stealing it from them. 😄 

Here is my umik-1 and also the cord that fits into it:


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## SirMaster

That’s just USB-C.


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## carp

Thanks Nick!


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## Zookeeper70

Stellar system thanks for sharing. I didn’t realize so many enthusiasts were in the KC area.


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