# Clarence's new theater plans



## Clarence

I'm trying to decide screensize and seat placement for our dedicated HT space in our new house.


Today I made my first visio sketch...











I want risers, but I can't picture how to work them in. The room size and door position is fixed. Everything else is flexible. Screen size will be no less than 10' wide as shown here). But probably not 12' like my current megascreen. No windows.


I know this probably belongs in the "HT Builder" forum, but I know and trust you guys and I want to get any CRT nuances covered too.


Comments?


-Clarence


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## genmax

Shweet!


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## Clarence

Marc-


After your visio comment yesterday, I gave it a shot. I'd only used it for network diagrams. Works great for HT planning!


Look closely at the CRT above. It's really 3 of the visio (digital) projector standard shapes overlapped with a computer-monitor shape stacked on top, then grouped. 


-Clarence


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## genmax

I would not have noticed. In fact I was going to ask you where you got those.


What are the issues with risers, looks like it would be easy.


How much of the perimeter wall is up and how is it finished? I can give you some assistance with the electrical if you need it.


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## WanMan

I took a line drawing of my NEC and inported it into Visio, resizing it of course.


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## Phil Smith

Looks nice Clarence! Save a BACK row set for me. 


Can you place seat rows on 4' centers? I don't know what it should be, but it sounds like it wouldn't be enough.


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## lawdawg

Clarence,


I'm guessing that your issue is that the back row would be the highest riser and how that would work with the entry door being right next to it.


You could use brass railing behind the last row and on the left side (facing screen.) Extend your risers all the way to that right wall . That would give you nice wide steps for traffic up to the higher levels to the right side, and provide a floor level walkway to the front row.


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## CaspianM

If you curve all the seating arrangements, then they will will be out of the doorway. What is the room size?


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## genmax

Yeah, what Lawndog said.


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## Clarence

>> How much of the perimeter wall is up and how is it finished? I can give you some assistance with the electrical if you need it.


It's still 95 days from being "unfinished" 

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-slab.jpg 


>> If you curve all the seating arrangements, then they will will be out of the doorway. What is the room size?


The curve is just a proscenium (stage).


I just looked at the plans and noticed the bathroom takes away 2' from the screen wall... (14' - 2' = 12'). I'll have to update that on the visio plan.

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/lower-level.gif 


>> Can you place seat rows on 4' centers? I don't know what it should be, but it sounds like it wouldn't be enough.


I measured the rows that I have set up in my unfinished basement now...

3' rows on center is much wider than in commercial theaters. 4' seems almost "too roomy".


>> I'm guessing that your issue is that the back row would be the highest riser and how that would work with the entry door being right next to it. You could use brass railing behind the last row and on the left side (facing screen.) Extend your risers all the way to that right wall . That would give you nice wide steps for traffic up to the higher levels to the right side, and provide a floor level walkway to the front row.


Thanks Adam (and Marc, et al). That's what I was thinking, too. Any thoughts on how high each riser should be? 9"? So the rear row is only 18" high. Would I need brass railing behind the seats?


I also haven't decided if I should close off that 8'x10' nook where I show a desk above. I have a separate office space upstairs, so that computer is just the HTPC. Maybe a closed A/V equipment room?


-Clarence


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## RVonse

Quote:

_Originally posted by lawdawg_
*Clarence,


I'm guessing that your issue is that the back row would be the highest riser and how that would work with the entry door being right next to it.


You could use brass railing behind the last row and on the left side (facing screen.) Extend your risers all the way to that right wall . That would give you nice wide steps for traffic up to the higher levels to the right side, and provide a floor level walkway to the front row.*
Clarence,

Is the desk for the HTPC? If so, I would agree with what lawdawg says but I would put the rail on the right side (facing screen) instead of the left side. Doing so would be slightly more inconvenient for the people walking in through the door but it would make it much easier going to and from the htpc.


The other thing I would think about is that electrohomes and Marquee's hang down pretty low from the ceiling due to a higher than norm profile. Does the room have a high ceiling? If not, I would not place any seats directly behind the projector, it may block the vision.


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## genmax

If you can, get the electrical contractor to put in conduit runs for the HT and smart home / media distribution through out the house for that matter.


If they won't, we can go in their on a midnight raid with some power tools and fix that right up!


EDIT: 9" may be a bit steep unless it's in two steps. I think 9 exceeds the typical rise for steps which I believe is 6 to 8 inches.


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## Clarence

>> get the electrical contractor to put in conduit runs


It's just a cookie-cutter tract-home and the media wiring option was $9k too much. The large playroom and bathroom are fully finished. The laundry/utilty/storage room and my HT are unfinished, so I'll have plenty of opportunity to double-frame and run conduits.


>> 9" may be a bit steep


Yeah, I just measured the basement steps and they're 8.5" rise and seem steep. I'll plan 7.5" for now, which means back row is 15" high.


>> Marquee's hang down pretty low from the ceiling due to a higher than norm profile. Does the room have a high ceiling?


Only 8' ceiling in the basement. I measured my Marquee hanging about 18".


Wow, these inches start adding up...


I just sat in one of the seats under my Marquee. It sits about 18"-20"" above my head. So if I was sitting behind it on a 15" riser, I'd be looking maybe 3"-5" under it.


Here's another visio...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-03.gif 


I added risers and a rear brass rail.

I depicted the bathroom wall jutting out.

I changed the HTPC desk to an equipment room (closet? alcove? cave?)

I left a "no-seating" gap under the Marquee.

I might consider a tall coffee table floor mount (actually maybe a combined HTPC equipment case and hush-box base), especially after yesterday's zero-tilt discussions.


It seemed so simple until I started drawing it out.


Thanks,

Clarence


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## Clarence

Slid rows to back wall...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-05.gif 


Too far back?

Ooh. Ooh... Can I go back to a 12' screen? Can I?! Huh? Can I?!


-Clarence


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## genmax

It looks like your homing in on a doable plan. Have you done an elevation view?


About the only thing you have to commit to is the projector mount if you do ceiling mount.


Are you going to use a drywall screen and masking?


Maybe going zero tilt/floor oriented is the way to go, for now at least. I'd still prep the ceiling with a healthy service loop though.


I would not be surprised if a 9"er is in your future. Or perhaps some other creature 5 years out from now. Keep your options open as best you can.


You should model the throw and zero tilt on your 14' screen now. I bet zero tilt will sharpen things up a bit. Let me know if you want help with that.


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## garyfritz

Hey Clarence, can I play too??  The contractors are supposed to come in about 3 weeks but we haven't settled on the final floor plan yet. I'm trying to understand the design issues I need to consider for a CRT & possibly other technologies in the future.


What's the typical throw ratio for CRTs? You've got yours 13' back, and that gives you a 10' wide screen? I'd like to hang the projector in the back of the room so it's not in the way visually or head-banging-wise (I'm 6'4"!) but if that means I'd be throwing a 15' image, hmmm... I had thought a 100" screen would be huge, but after seeing all the pix of your 12' screen I'm readjusting my ideas!


I've also got 8' ceilings but I'm not gonna try to do risers. I don't expect to throw big movie parties -- no more than 6-8 people max. So just a couch and a chair or pillow or two oughta do it.


What about the ceiling? We'll be sheetrocking it. What kind of reinforcement or flexible hanging arrangement do I use to be able to support one of these heavy beasties?


I'm thinking of running a 2" PVC pipe through the rafters to a recessed box at the hanging position to make it easy to run new cables.


Gary


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## Clarence

Quote:

Hey Clarence, can I play too?? The contractors are supposed to come in about 3 weeks but we haven't settled on the final floor plan yet.
Hi Gary-


Yep, join in.

Lesson learned #1... just start with a floor plan with a 50'x30' space. Works great in this unfinished basement I'm in now!


For throw distance, there are online calculators and each model has charts in the downloaded manuals, but roughly plan on 120%-130% of screen width.


-Clarence


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## Clarence

Quote:

Are you going to use a drywall screen and masking?


Maybe going zero tilt/floor oriented is the way to go, for now at least. I'd still prep the ceiling with a healthy service loop though.


Keep your options open as best you can.


You should model the throw and zero tilt on your 14' screen now. I bet zero tilt will sharpen things up a bit. Let me know if you want help with that.
Yep. I plan on sticking with a painted screen. I have visions of having black side curtains for side masking and an adjustable top/bottom AR mask.


I plan on doing several mock-ups in my current unfinished basement. I was just trying to figure out how many concrete blocks I would need to raise my seat rows to simulate the risers. I'll hang sheets from the rafters to simulate the walls.


My biggest concern with floor mounting is having the lenses at eye level for my young-ones and their friends. I know looking down those lenses is too bright even with contrast=10%.


You plan on visiting tomorrow (er, later today... Saturday) if your plans get rained out?


-Clarence


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## Brian Hampton

It's still 95 days from being "unfinished"


Hey,


My old pal Clarence. I'm a 118 days away from moving into my first home with an unfinished basement. I bet I could learn something from every mistake you make. This should be fun. My basement is a 36x36 with a 12x12 section cut out of one corner. I have no idea how to lay out the laundry and theater and possible other room in there. Maybe I'll do a search for this visio thingie.


-Brian


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## Brian Hampton

Hey,


Forget the floor mount. I've had my projector set up several different ways in the 3.5 years in which I've had it and ceiling mount has always worked better.


Perhaps there not typical but my cats will walk up and look right into the tubes. My kids, well, I don't think they ever did that but I didn't like having the PJ so accessable to them. My current space has a very low ceiling and it used to be an attic so it's a very tight fit but I still ceiling mount it.


-Brian


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## Clarence

Here's a side view. I just did it in PowerPoint, so my homemade boxes and ovals are kinda rough. And the measurements and proportionate scalescale are only ~10% accurate.

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-side.gif 


I'm thinking *ceiling mount* still works fine with line of sight even for the back row, and with proper placement, the front row won't bump their heads.


-Clarence


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## Belcherwm

Clarence,


I don't see how you can do three rows with only 8' of height. I struggled with one 9" riser. With your preference for max screen size I think you're going to be dealing with obstructed views from the projector and/or the people sitting in front of your back rows.


Where is your new place? I'm down the road in Haymarket if you want to see first hand what I did with a 22x12.5x8 space


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## Belcherwm

Now figure your sight lines to the top and to the bottom of your screen from each position. It's just not going to work with your screen size.


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## Clarence

Hi Bill-


I'll definitely take you up on the site visit to see your riser in 22x12.5x8. Almost exactly what I'm working with!


I'm in Herndon now. The new house is in Purcellville. We hope to move in around July 4th.


I'll be OOT next week, but let's hook up after taxes. I'll PM you.


Thanks!

Clarence


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## garyfritz

Hm, 120-130% of screen width. And you want to sit 150-200% of screen width from the screen. That pretty much kills any idea of putting the projector in a "booth" behind the back wall, which I really liked the sound of. Puts the noise in another space, gets the low-headroom projector out of the way, etc. But if the PJ has to be closer than the viewer, that ain't gonna work.


But now looking at the throw calculator at projectorcentral.com, I randomly picked a Sony VPL-HS20 as a test case. And it says with a 16' throw you can have a 4:3 screen width of 86-103". So that 16' throw is 1.86-2.23x the screen width. Is that atypical?


My viewing space is probably not going to be any more than 15' deep. Let's say I can work a booth into the design so I locate the PJ 16' away. If I shoot for an 8' screen, that's an 8'x6' screen for 4:3, masked off to 8'x4.5' for 16:9. To sit 1.5-2x screen width away, that would be 12-16'. Maybe a bit tight for a 15' room? Or I could always zoom out a bit and make the screen 7' wide for an ideal 1.5-2 viewing range of 11-14'. This still works with a 16' throw.


If many/most PJs have throw ratios like that, I'd definitely like to stick them in a booth out of the way and out of earshot. Trouble is, most of the used PJs I might be able to afford are not listed on the projectorcentral.com throw calculator. Is there a more complete listing somewhere?


Gary


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## Clarence

projectorcentral lists digital projectors, not CRT. dPJs typically require longer throws, so they can sit behind the audience.


I'll try to dig up some common CRT distance charts, links, and formulas.


The Marquee chart is attached.


-Clarence


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## Clarence

And here's the Electrohome ECP/Marquee distance calculator 


But remember to actually test the throw from your actual setup before building the mounting location, because your phosphor usage will affect the throw area.


-Clarence

 

electrohome_distance.zip 27.9072265625k . file


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## Clarence

And a Marquee formula :

D = 1.22 x W +10"

Y = D * COS(theta)


see attached graph


-Clarence


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## garyfritz

> projectorcentral lists digital projectors, not CRT.


Ohhhh. Duh. No wonder I couldn't find any of the CRTs I've been looking at in their listings. Do you know of anyplace that lists great stats like they do, but for CRTs?


> dPJs typically require longer throws, so they can sit behind the audience.


Even though the CRTs are the ones that really *need* to be in a booth, since they're way heavier (hard to hang from the ceiling) and generally noisier. Bummer. It would be so much simpler to wire &etc in a booth.


> But remember to actually test the throw from your actual setup before building the mounting location, because your phosphor usage will affect the throw area.


You mean I can't know where to hang the PJ until I already have the PJ, and it varies from PJ to PJ based on the level of phosphor burn!? I thought I would build in a strong mount point in the ceiling, along with built-in wiring. Do I have to just guess, and hope the PJ I get can fit within reasonable distance of the wiring I run?


Why does phosphor usage determine distance? Because of the brightness the CRTs can generate, or because burn patterns might restrict the size of the image on the tube, or...?


Are you *sure* CRTs are worth all this hassle!?!??  

Gary


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## Clarence

OK, the 10% inaccuracy in my PowerPoint dimensions were driving me crazy, so I imported it into Visio for better accuracy...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-o6.gif 


Next... It looks like if I increase the distance between the rows to 4.5', I might be able to have a place to stand without bumping the ceiling mounted projector.


Bill, what was the main challenge you had with your 9" riser? Seated sight-lines to screen?


-Clarence


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## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by garyfritz_

the CRTs are the ones that really *need* to be in a booth, since they're... generally noisier.
I'd generalize CRTs as _quieter_ than the majority of dPJs. I think only the Sony VPH1292 is notorious for fan noise.

Quote:

You mean I can't know where to hang the PJ until I already have the PJ, and it varies from PJ to PJ based on the level of phosphor burn!? I thought I would build in a strong mount point in the ceiling, along with built-in wiring. Do I have to just guess, and hope the PJ I get can fit within reasonable distance of the wiring I run?
The calculators will probably get you within ~6"-12". So if you have a fixed mounting location, that might affect your actual projected screen size by ~6". Depends on which you're more flexible with. But don't finalize your screen masking until you actually select, buy, and turn on your projector. 

Quote:

Why does phosphor usage determine distance? Because of the brightness the CRTs can generate, or because burn patterns might restrict the size of the image on the tube, or...?
If you can increase the amount of phosphor you're using, say 10% more of the face, then your image will also be correspondingly larger (or brighter, if you keep the projected image size the same). But if you have a pre-existing wear area that you're constrained within, you'll need to account for that. What you don't want to do is decrease the size of the available phosphor you're using just to get a smaller projected image because you mounted your projector too far back, so the projected image is too large for your built screen.

Quote:

Are you *sure* CRTs are worth all this hassle!?!?? 
It is for me. But I have no problems with anyone "settling" for a bulb projector. 


-Clarence


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## wdempsey

Quote:

_Originally posted by ArtisTech_
*If you curve all the seating arrangements, then they will will be out of the doorway. What is the room size?*
I still like ArtisTech's idea of a curved seating arrangement. It would give you some room between the seats and the door.


Many theaters do not have straight rows, but a slight arc to them.


Bill Dempsey


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## VideoGrabber

Gary asked:

> Why does phosphor usage determine distance? Because of the brightness the CRTs can generate, or because burn patterns might restrict the size of the image on the tube, or...?


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## garyfritz

Huh. I didn't realize CRTs don't have zooms. Guess it makes sense though, considering they'd need 3 of 'em. Just never thought of it. No wonder the mounting distance is so touchy.


Burning a custom pattern to even out your phosphor, yow! 


OK, so it's gotta be in the room, probably a ceiling mount. Or is a table mount better/preferable/? Sure seems simpler. If the PJ is quiet, you could have it sittng right in front of you, maybe inside a hushbox. Any big reason to prefer ceiling mount, other than freeing up floor space (but with an 8' ceiling you couldn't really walk under it anyway) and getting the beam up so people don't block it? Since most of you guys seem to be hanging them, I assume there's a good reason.


Gary


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## Belcherwm

OK, let me give it a shot without Visio. Might have to try laying my HT out in it later.


I've got a 16:9 screen, 96"x54". Bottom of screen is 26.5" from the floor. Top is about 14.5" from the ceiling or 80.5" from the floor.


My BD808, at it's lowest point, is 75" from the floor, similar to yours I think.


Your third row will be 15" (riser) plus 44" for 59" to eye level.


I don't think you will have enough angle to see under the PJ to the top of your screen and over the heads in front to see the bottom of the screen.


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## THECLOSER

Clarence, that all looks awesome!! BUT, where is my guest room?? I told the wife i am moving to your house. Don't worry i'll bring all my toy's(lol).


Marc, looks like we have a place to crash(hehe)


All kidding aside that looks great if i can help in anyway let me know.


Carlos


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## garyfritz

This is no fair, you guys are all right next to each other and can go play in each others' HTs. I have yet to even SEE one !!


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## Clarence

Carlos, you, Marc, and Bill et al are always welcome. Especially if you're handy with tools 


I plan on tricking Marc into teaching me all of his incredible focus skills. The movie's always big, the soundtrack's always thundering, and the refreshments are always cold.


Gary: it'd be a fun roadtrip from Colorado. If you're good with drywall, you can take one of my ECPs home with you.


Is everybody sick of my constant revisions?


Here's #7:

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-07.gif 


-Clarence


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## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Belcherwm_
*Now figure your sight lines to the top and to the bottom of your screen from each position. It's just not going to work with your screen size.*
Not as bad as I thought...

- the projector is shown at a worst case 24" mounting depth. I think it should end up closer to 18"

- each of the seated mannequins are 6' 2" tall, my front 2 rows are typically filled with 5 to 8 year olds

- these viewcones are based on 4:3 aspect ratio, I think widescreen content would be minimally obstructed for all viewers

- the rows are staggered so you're looking between the heads in front of you

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-08-viewcones.gif 


-Clarence


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## RVonse

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*Yep. I plan on sticking with a painted screen. I have visions of having black side curtains for side masking and an adjustable top/bottom AR mask.



-Clarence*
We think along very similar lines. That is exactly how I did my theater. To do the masking, I used (2) 1/2" standard electrical conduits with gearmotors to allow the masking to be controlled electrically. Picked up the conduits for a couple of bucks at Home Depot and the gearmotors for around $10 each off ebay.


It ended up working beautifully even better than I expected.


Here is a picture I took of the right side before I covered it with the curtain.


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## RVonse

And the same right side after it was covered with the black side curtain.


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## Clarence

Ooh, I hadn't thought of powering it...

For the top blanking I was just thinking of rolling black fabric around a 10' pipe and unrolling it to the desired mask. For the bottom I was thinking about a valance with pegs or hooks every 1" on each side so I could rais it up for bottom blanking.


Is your masking on the bottom adjustable?


Thanks,

Clarence


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## RVonse

Yes, the top black felt is rolled along the top 10' conduit pipe. The second 10' (1/2"diameter) conduit is only for the bottom masking. String is spooled up and down for the bottom piece. The bottom piece itself is only a stiff horizontal light weight bar going all the way across the bottom with some black felt material attached. There is a far right hand string and a far left hand string which goes all the way to the bottom. The strings are covered by the black curtain. 2 gearmotors - the left one does the top conduit and the right one does the bottom conduit.


If you look at the close up you can barely see the right hand string.


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## Clarence

OK... so as the gear turns, it lets the top fabric out to lower the top mask, while at the same time, winds the string to raise the bottom mask.


Very cool. Thanks!


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## RVonse

Not quite. The top and bottom are completely independent of each other.


So I can lower or raise the top or lower or raise the bottom. They do not need to move together but they can if I want them to. The left gearmotor operates the top only and has nothing to do with the bottom. The right gearmotor is only for the conduit with the strings for the bottom. I have 2 spdt switches, 1 for the top and 1 for the bottom.


Its hard to explain maybe I can find some other pics.


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## RVonse

Here is a pic of the left side. If you look close you will see that the gearmotor is only connected to the top conduit. Thats the conduit that rolls the top felt.


The bottom conduit right under the gearmotor is not connected to this left gearmotor at all. The bottom conduit is simply there to spool the left string for the bottom felt. The bottom conduit is only powered by its gearmotor which is on the right side and not shown here.


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## genmax

Just a few other tidbits... Don't forget power runs for the rope lighting around the risers or where ever that may be.


Speaking of power, is the utility box/ service panel in the unfinished area. You'll want 2 twenty amp circuits pulled on 12/2 wire.


Actually you should ask Carlos what his feeds are, I know he's consuming some juice with his setup.


Party at Clarence's!!


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## Art Sonneborn

Turn the layout 90 degrees( screen on wall of entrance door , go with two rows of six with curved rows for comfort( that many in a row you will like the view better with a curve). Put the PJ over the heads of the back row and go with single a 10" riser.


Art


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## Phil Smith

Hey Clarence,


You can probably pick up quite a bit of clearance with your pj mount. I wanted to keep my pj as high as possible to allow me to continue using my garage as you normally use a garage. I bolted two 2"x1/2" steel bars on the bottom of my pj with counter sink bolts, and clamped them to the ceiling with two 1 1/2" pieces of pre-drilled square tubing. I mounted 1/2" birch plywood directly on the ceiling joist to handle the abuse of the pj being slid around during alignment. The 1/2" ceiling sheet-rock will abut the edge of the birch, which I'll cover with a small piece of trim. Total distance between the bottom of the pj and the ceiling: 1/2". I'm sure there's a way to get zero drop, but this is the best I could come up with.

http://www.dallasmusic.org/ebay/mount-2.jpg


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## Phil Smith

Oh, and it could probably be made to look a little better as well. In the garage it doesn't really matter.


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## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Art Sonneborn_
*Turn the layout 90 degrees( screen on wall of entrance door , go with two rows of six with curved rows for comfort( that many in a row you will like the view better with a curve). Put the PJ over the heads of the back row and go with single a 10" riser.


Art*
I think the room's too narrow...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-09-art.gif 


- that throw distance (11.5') only allows a 100" wide screen. A little too sane for me 


- my theater seats are connected; I might be able to get a 2 or 3 degree arc, but not 10 degree shown here (and certainly not the separation shown here, since they share armrests)


- the 9' seating / 100" screen gives 1.08X (Phil would freak). Back row would be 1.56X (good)


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## Phil Smith

I can't sit that far back anymore, but I like 2.0 best, which is why I liked the back row on your original design. I know Art is another guy that likes to sit close. For me real close is torture.


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## Clarence

OK, so you'll like my current candidate:

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-08-16x9-viewcones.gif 

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-08-top.gif 


Thanks for the continued inputs.


We'll be on vacation next week (and I'll be picking up PJ4: the VPH1271), so enjoy the peace and quiet while I'm away (I'm sure I'll check in a few times  )


-Clarence


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## overclkr

Have a nice Vacation Clarence!!


Cliff


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## Phil Smith

Have a great vacation Clarence--if that's possible. I think you'll go nuts without your AVS fix. Hell, I'm not near as addicted as you, but I still get a pretty good AVS Jones going if I can't check it on a semi-regular basis.


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## Art Sonneborn

Yea, take your computer or we may have redesigned everything without your input  . Have fun !


Art


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## DaveN

As one who learned through the school of hard knocks, I would suggest that you consider hiring a pro such as Dennis Erskine. He can give you plans that will avoid dozens of problems that you wouldn't even think could happen. His site: http://www.designcinema.com/diy.htm 


Good luck,

Dave


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## THECLOSER

Clarence,


Have a great time. If Art re-doing it while your gone it will at least be an awesome layout. If anyone has not taken a peak at Art's new theater design you are missing something!! Art has gone insane just like me(lol). When you get back i'll go over some of the wiring with you and yes i can lend a hand , I have all the tools you would probably need for this type job and I know how to use them. Good with drywall as well.


Have fun


Carlos


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## garyfritz

> Ooh, I hadn't thought of powering it...

> For the top blanking I was just thinking of rolling black fabric around a 10' pipe

> and unrolling it to the desired mask. For the bottom I was thinking about a

> valance with pegs or hooks every 1" on each side so I could rais it up for

> bottom blanking.


Glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks of cheapo solutions...  That's exactly what I had thought of for a first attempt at top/bottom masking.


Clarence, I'm confused why you want top/bottom AND side masking. Don't you build the screen to be e.g. 4:3 ratio, then top/bottom mask for 16:9 or 2:35:1 or whatever? Or is the side masking fixed, to define the sides of your image in whatever size?


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## plain fan

Enjoy the vacation.


Why couldn't you cut down the front row of seats? Make them a little lower to the ground which would change your riser heights?


Also where are your speakers going to be positioned? From the drawing it doesn't look like you'll have room on the sides of the screen.


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## Art Sonneborn

What speakers, the screen is all that matters 


Art


----------



## plain fan

Yeah, but there aren't many silent 16:9 films available


----------



## Clarence

just checking in with hotel dial-up... 

Quote:

Clarence, I'm confused why you want top/bottom AND side masking. Don't you build the screen to be e.g. 4:3 ratio, then top/bottom mask for 16:9 or 2:35:1 or whatever? Or is the side masking fixed, to define the sides of your image in whatever size?
Exactly... the current plan is a fixed-width 10' screen on the 12.5' wall. So I envision some narrow black drapes to match the top bottom masking.

Quote:

Also where are your speakers going to be positioned? From the drawing it doesn't look like you'll have room on the sides of the screen.
My fronts are only 8" Infinity 82s, so they'll fit with the side curtains. Center and surrounds are small JBLs.


I'm researching whether the sub can be embedded in the riser under a seat. I'm also considering building a "HTPC coffee table" under the ceiling mounted Marquee. The sub might go in that table too.


-Clarence


----------



## Marshall F

Clarence,


I was confused at first, looking at the picture, at your setup -- that's your basement? Sorry, not too many of those here, except for swimming pools. If so, this is probably too late, but did you consider setting it up using a FP, but in a RP mode? Add on a small room behind your stage and gone are your concerns with the pj over your head, and might free up options of risers and tilt. Might cost a pretty penny now, but no less expensive time to do it from here on.


Adios,


Marshall


----------



## plain fan

I know people have posted about attaching bass shakers or tactile transducers to the bottoms of seats so I'm sure you could do the same with your riser.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

that's your basement? Sorry, not too many of those here, except for swimming pools. If so, this is probably too late, but did you consider setting it up using a FP, but in a RP mode?
Yep, that's our new basement. Here's the basement floor plan . It's really more like a 3rd level, because the stairs are finished and there's a 4th bathroom. That other large finished room has full size windows and a level walkout to the backyard.


I'd considered RP for one of my other PJs, for the boys' playroom. See the floorplan where it shows W/D? That's a windowless utility room, so it could work perfectly (for the playroom, not my main HT) with no mirrors.


But now you'll have me checking to see how tight a space I can put the Marquee and mirrors in and still get a large screen. You're right, it frees up having to plan seating around the ceiling mount. Plus I could put the HTPC and other equipment in there.


Thanks for the out-of-the-box suggestion Marshall.


Does anybody know of an RP success with a 8' or 10' wide screen? If anyone's got plans (or links) showing the mirror size(s) and room size I'll need to achieve 8'+ wide (I'd prefer 10'), I'd love to see them.


I think I'm going to have to order some of that Dazian RP and report the results.


-Clarence


----------



## kal

Hi Clarence!


I love watching plans like this come together... with yourself and Art going through the same process, I'm having great success putting aside my builder's itch to just rip everything down and redo my own dedicated room. 


Some thoughts/questions on your design:


(1) Do you seats recline? If yes 4'6" between rows will not be enough. (I just put in two rows of Jaymar recliners and there's a good 6' between rows.


(2) Others have said it already, but a 7.5" rise per row really isn't enough if you want truly unblocked views. Sounds like you're aware of this and are ready to live with this compromise. I have a 12" rise between my two rows and even that isn't always enough.


(3) When you said that your screen wall is 12' wide and plan on putting a 10' screen on it, are you remembering to include all the framing/double-drywall/etc that may reduce the width? Even if it's a true 12' wide after your drywall's up, I think your speakers are going to be too close to side walls as someone else mentioned. Having them too close will re-enforce those unwanted reflections. When I first saw your layouts I was also wondering where the front L/R speakers would go as there really wasn't enough 'breathing room' for speakers in the front. A perfed screen would be another option... (more $$$ though, cuts into the room, and you have to then move the PJ back as well).


Good luck! Have fun! Keep us updated!


Kal


----------



## plain fan

Kal,

When will you post new pictures of your theater?


Clarence,

With rear projection could you sacrifice a little screen size and compensate by moving the seating closer?


----------



## Jim in Cincy

Clarence, I am (hopefully) going to receive a replacement Marquee 8500 this week (long story). Their tech guy emailed me the straight line distance of 143.5". He stated "_This is about 12

inches closer than recommended, but since you're doing a widescreen image, we can typically maximize the image on the CRT further than normal._" I am not sure what the logic behind that is, but I wanted to pass the info on to you as I guess that would change your projector location.


----------



## kal

_Originally posted by plain fan_
*Kal, When will you post new pictures of your theater?*


Good question! I have a shot of the seats here , but need to still redo my gallery photos ...

_Originally posted by Jim in Cincy_
*Clarence, I am (hopefully) going to receive a replacement Marquee 8500 this week (long story). Their tech guy emailed me the straight line distance of 143.5". He stated "This is about 12

inches closer than recommended, but since you're doing a widescreen image, we can typically maximize the image on the CRT further than normal." I am not sure what the logic behind that is, but I wanted to pass the info on to you as I guess that would change your projector location.*


The reason: You want to optimize the amount of phosphor used on the CRT tube surfaces, so normally you expand the image on the tube surface until the image is around 1/4" from the edge of the phosphor at the closest point (the corners of the image). When you set up for a 16x9 screen, you use less phosphor height on the CRT tube surface so you can go wider as the phosphor surface isn't 100% square. Most setup manuals/charts don't optimize phosphor usage completely to begin with, so even 4x3 screen users can move closer.


This is getting off-topic, so let's take this to the CRT forum if you have any other questions... there's a lot of discussion there that resolves around "maximizing phosphor usage".


Back to Art's big build! 


Kal


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Back to Art's big build!


Kal
And Clarence's smaller build 


I'll crank up visio again and try some RP layouts. I also have to do a lot of searching on RP. I'm really rooting for Phil to find a magical film that solves his RP glass issue. My wife really likes the idea of not seeing the projector or having it at head-bumpin' height.

Quote:

Do your seats recline? If yes 4'6" between rows will not be enough.
No, I have 40 theater seats with new upholstry - padded seats and backs, but they don't recline or rock (and no cupholders). I like the look and theme (and quantity and price) of them, perfect for my boys and their friends. I've sat in them for 2 hour movies. They're actually fairly comfortable. But I'm also considering getting a couple of those berklines or something similar for the theater owner - maybe in the "balcony" (top riser).


-Clarence


----------



## garyfritz

Along the lines of "maximizing phosphor usage" and Clarence's thoughts of 12' vs 10' screen....


I have some questions about screen sizing. It's my understanding that people generally use a fixed-width screen, using top and bottom masking to change the image height for 4:3 vs 16:9 vs 2.35:1 or whatever. Correct?


If so, then wouldn't Clarence be limited in screen width by his 8' ceiling? Allowing, say, 6" top and bottom for masking &etc, you have a 7' image height. For a 4:3 screen that's a width of 9'4". Right?


(Related question: how much room SHOULD you leave top & bottom? Enough for your masking materials & no more, or do you need more space than that?)


It seems that if you wanted to maximize your screen size for 16:9 & other widescreen formats, it would be nice if you could do, say, a 12' 16:9 screen (which would be 6'9" high) and mask the sides for a 9' wide 6'9" high 4:3 image. That's plenty big for 4:3 material, and it gives you a really huge image for 16:9. (Assuming you have 20-24' of room depth, as Clarence does.) That's almost 30% wider than the 16:9 screen fit into the 9'4" 4:3 width.


But if I understand this right, that would require you to run the 4:3 image in the middle (side-to-side) of the 16:9 image space on the phosphor. If you watch a lot of 4:3, that could result in a 4:3 burn in the middle of your 16:9 image, which would be bad. The other way puts your 16:9 in the middle (top-to-bottom) of the 4:3 image, which may end up with a 16:9 burn in your 4:3 image, but that's less of a concern because the 4:3 image probably has lower signal quality anyway?


It seems like a waste to only use a portion of the vertical phosphor real estate for 16:9, throwing away a lot of resolution. With single-lens dPJs some people put an anamorphic lens on it so they can use the full image space for 16:9. But there's no way to do that with CRTs, is there?


My nascent HT will have a slightly-less-than-8' ceiling so I'll be limited to an absolute max of about 7' image height. But I'll probably only have about 15' of room depth so 7-9' is probably about as wide as I can go anyway. So it probably makes best sense for me to build a 4:3 screen and mask it to 16:9.


Am I on the right track here?

Gary


----------



## kal

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to Art's big build!


Kal

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And Clarence's smaller build 
*
Aw crap! Sorry Clarence! (This is what happens when I try to read & respond to multiple threads at once)... 


Kal


----------



## Jim in Cincy

Gary,

I believe many people set their image/screen up at 16:9 AR, then use the same width for 16:9 and 2.35:1 ARs (black bars at top and bottom for 2.35:1 AR), and the same height for 16:9 and 4:3 ARs (black bars at left and right sides). I think that is what Clarence is doing, right Clarence???


I plan to do constant height at around 4.25' which will give me around 5.67' width for 4:3AR, 7.57' width for 16:9AR, and 10' width for 2.35:1AR. I realize I am not using the phosphor to its fullest but I really want the splender of going from movie trailers of 16:9 to showing a movie in 2.35:1. Of course I may change my mind and go with what I think other people to (1st paragraph).


Didn't mean to thread crap on your topic Clarence. http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/...doom/Flush.gif


----------



## Clarence

Yep, you're on the right track, Gary. When I show 4:3 content (like my kids' DVDs) on my 8x12 screen, some of the height (6"-12") runs off into the joists above, or I just blank them with the projector settings, or compress the aspect ratio by reducing vertical height.


None of this is crapping on my thread. It's all good info.


So I know my real setup will not be 12' wide, but I'd like to have at least 9' or 10' wide.


Here's my first draft of an RP setup. It shows a 9' wide screen, which I really don't want to go any smaller. I think the projection room is going to have to be longer, I forgot about the length of the projector. Plus I have to plan access to the equipment room. What's the smallest opening I can hide behind a curtain? 12' wall - 9' screen = 3' divided by left/right sides = 18" per side for speakers and curtain and studs/drywall/trim... Tight fit!

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht10-rp.gif 


-Clarence


----------



## Jim in Cincy

Quote:

_Originally posted by kal_

The reason: You want to optimize the amount of phosphor used on the CRT tube surfaces, so normally you expand the image on the tube surface until the image is around 1/4" from the edge of the phosphor at the closest point (the corners of the image). When you set up for a 16x9 screen, you use less phosphor height on the CRT tube surface so you can go wider as the phosphor surface isn't 100% square

Kal [/b]
Clarence, had you already factored this in when you computed your projector distance? Just curious.


----------



## Clarence

As soon as I feel comfortable with a layout, I'm going to replicate it in my current basement and use the actual projected measurements with my real phosphor sizing instead of the calculated distances.


----------



## Matthew Todd

Quote:

I think the projection room is going to have to be longer, I forgot about the length of the projector
How high up off the ground will the screen be? Might it be possible to put the projector (in a hush box?) under the screen, which will gain you a little more room?


Matt


----------



## Clarence

Good thinking Matt... with a smaller screen, I've got extra room to play under the screen now. I was planning on building a proscenium stage so that could give me an extra foot to play with if I need to slide the projector into it.


But I was also toying with two rows and a single, taller riser (9"?).


I also moved the RP room out to meet the existing notch in the wall where it widens to 14'.

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht11-rp.gif 


-Clarence


----------



## garyfritz

Hmm, Clarence, maybe punch an access door in the shower next door??? 


I like the constant-height approach you're taking, Jim. Gives you a nice big picture for 16:9 without going too terribly small for 4:3, and masking the side (standard curtain-type action) would be simpler than masking top/bottom. I'm wondering if it would be too much hassle to vary width AND height to maximize picture size.


Depending on the floor plan we settle on (soon! within a day or so), my major limiting factor will probably be room depth. It may be as little as 13', possibly 15'. I could make the room deeper but it would be narrower at the viewing end, putting the seats in a sort of alcove. (Imagine a 13' long space, then the right wall juts in 4', and I could go back 6' or so from there. There's also an immovable pole on the left side at the 13-14' line. So the seats could go back in that 6' space.) I'm assuming that would be Very Bad for sound &etc so that's probably not a good answer -- true?


1.5-2x screen width is the rule of thumb. Is that based on the maximum comfortable view angle, or on how far you have to be to not see screen artifacts? For both CRTs and dPJs I would think height (scan lines or pixels) would be the limiting factor, and how wide you stretch it wouldn't matter that much. If the former, I think I probably sit at about 1x screen width in commercial theaters. If the latter, is it 1.5-2x a 4:3 or a 16:9 ??


Let's say we assume a 13' room, with viewing position 12' or so from the screen. (Hm, that makes it hard to build in the equipment cabinet at rear-center like I was planning...) Would it be reasonable to have, say, a 10'x5.5' 16:9 screen (viewing at a max of 1.2x screen width) and say 9.3'x7' 4:3 screen (1.3x)? But then you have to hassle with moving top/bot AND side masking. Or constant-height, 7.5'x5.5' 4:3 (2x+) and 10'x5.5' 16:9 (1.2x)? Or constant-width 9.3'x7' 4:3 and 9.3'x5.25' 16:9 (1.3x)? Or am I trying to put too big a screen in this room?


I'll probably set up my CRT on a table initially, and see what screen sizes really work for me, before I hang it and put up my masking.


(BTW I thought I asked this somewhere but if I did I lost it -- what's the advantage of hanging the PJ? Just get it out of your line of sight, or...?)


I think I oughta start my own "Gary's new theater plans" thread and quit horning in on Clarence's game.  God knows I have enough questions that I could justify it, and I wouldn't be derailing the conversations on Clarence's design. As soon as I sketch up some floorplans I'll do that.


----------



## kal

Quote:

_Originally posted by garyfritz_
*(BTW I thought I asked this somewhere but if I did I lost it -- what's the advantage of hanging the PJ? Just get it out of your line of sight, or...?)*
If it's a CRT PJ, then the #1 reason to ceiling mount is to avoid using up the best seat in the house for the PJ.


Kal


----------



## garyfritz

But Clarence said most CRTs need to be located at about 1.3x, and you want to be at 1.5-2x. I assumed the table would be in front of the best seating.


----------



## Clarence

I prefer sitting around 1.3x-1.5x. So if the front of a projector is at 13' and takes about 3' space, so it's at 13'+3', plus you need to leave footroom behind the projector... so you either sit well behind it or to the side, either way, it tends to obstruct the best seating sweetspot area. I can handle 1.1x-1.2x. Phil prefers 1.8x-2x.


It's not as bad as it sounds, but it should be accounted for in your plans and ideally experienced both ways (ceiling and floormount) in real life before you build a room; instead of just basing it on a visio chart.


----------



## Clarence

That's exactly the way I want to use the volume under the riser! I think it could be an ideal sealed enclosure. Bang for the buck is my mantra. I just don't know enough about ports, vents, baffles, etc. But it sounds like I've got a good resource now 


Once I stabilize on a riser footprint, I'll bounce the interior and exterior volume off of you.


How many of those 15" subs are you thinking would be in there?


-Clarence


----------



## Jim in Cincy

Quote:

_Originally posted by garyfritz_
*I like the constant-height approach you're taking, Jim. I'm wondering if it would be too much hassle to vary width AND height to maximize picture size. Would it be reasonable to have, say, a 10'x5.5' 16:9 screen and say 9.3'x7' 4:3 screen? But then you have to hassle with moving top/bot AND side masking. Or constant-height, 7.5'x5.5' 4:3 (2x+) and 10'x5.5' 16:9 (1.2x)? Or constant-width 9.3'x7' 4:3 and 9.3'x5.25' 16:9 (1.3x)?*
If I were to go with constant width for 16:9 and 2.35:1 I would position my drapes for the height of the 16:9 image, then just use the masking of the projector for top and bottom of the 2.35:1 image, or use motorized top and bottom drapes. I would have the same height as 16:9 for 4:3 and use motorized drapes to come in from the sides, or again use the projector's masking if it goes that far inward.


Quote:

_Originally posted by garyfritz_
*1.5-2x screen width is the rule of thumb*
I hate the rule of thumb. I'm sure I'm sitting closer than 1.5-2x the screen at a movie theater and I've been watching movies at home on a 6x8' screen from 12' feet away (1.5) for around 10 years and have felt too far away. One of the big reasons why people suggest these distances is so you don't see imperfections of the projected image. But as to how many imprefections you see depends on the quality of the image. My rule of thumb is to sit at the distance that pleases you the most.


Quote:

_Originally posted by garyfritz_
*I think I oughta start my own "Gary's new theater plans" thread and quit horning in on Clarence's game. *
People flock to Clarence's threads. It's no surprise other discussion happen.


All Hail Clarence!!!


----------



## garyfritz

OK, I've started my own thread so I can quit stomping on Clarence's. Please come visit me here and join the party!


Gary


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## Clarence

After seeing Phil's challenges with rear projection, I'm anxious to hear _anyone's_ RP success stories or horror stories.


Honestly, I can't even consider anything over $1000. For that much money, I'm already very content with my plain old painted sheetrock.


Has anyone tried any of these materials:

http://www.rosebrand.com/search/resu...?search=screen 

Rosebrand Grey Projection Screen Material 
_"Grey projection screen is best for rear projection, but can be used for front projection. This neutral color blends into the background and reflects less ambient light than white screens. It is good for outdoor use. 55", 86", 94", 114" and 180". The 110" wide material is 2 widths of 55" welded together._

55"w = $15.70/yd.

86"w = $76.05/yd.

94"w =$69.00/yd.

Custom Rear Projection Screens without Edge Finishing 
_Vertically welded without any edge finishing for your insertion into your set. Larger screens will be folded for UPS shipment, unless instructed otherwise._

Technical Specifications

Unit Weight: 1 oz.

Width: your dimensions

Thickness: 4 mils (0.004 inches or 10 millimeters)

Price: $3.00 per Square Foot

Dazian also on ebay (3089881858, 3089881843)


Da-lite
http://projectorzone.com/dalperfixwal.html 

$278+...

+ $345 for 65"x116"

+ $65 for Cinema Vision?

(=$688!)

Rosco 


Thanks,

Clarence

_EDIT:_ Here's more...
Gerriets Optitrans 

http://www.i-weiss.com/products/curtains/screens/ 

http://www.harknesshall.com/ Screen Surfaces 

Goo 
_"We have also introduced a very exciting new product. Goo Systems has engineered a new rear projection screen coating designed to provide exceptional results in both home and business applications. Any rigid transparent surface can now be cost effectively transformed into a high quality dual-sided projection screen."_

Da-Lite Rear Projection (Da-Tex and Dual Vision are RP)

- - http://www.cambridgeworld.com/Da-Lit...n_surfaces.htm 

- - http://www.shopcousinsvideo.com/dalmatwhitsc.html 

- - http://www.av-outlet.com/index.html?...tml&lang=en-us


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## Phil Smith

Clarence,


Half the reason I posted this morning (I wasn't really in much of a mood to talk about it) was to give you a heads up. I feel that I jumped into my project without enough research, and I didn't want to be responsible for you doing the same. I would thoroughly test whatever screen material you're considering BEFORE you commit to it. And small samples don't really help. Detecting hot spotting with a 9"x12" sample is not likely.


----------



## Clarence

Ah, some successful RP inspiration ...


Vacation ends tomorrow.

I'm heading back to my playground...

Stay tuned.


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

More notes to myself...

warcher1's RP mirror 

Draper RP mirror setup PDF (drool over attached picture... 9'x12' RP)

http://www.plaskolite.com/productguide/26.pdf


----------



## Clarence

Here's my first RP test. I'm using my 4th projector, the Sony VPH1271, just because it's the one with the power cord attached right now. It's not focussed or converged yet, and it's only hooked up to s-video, so you can see the scan lines, but it's good enough for these initial RP tests...


Here's a view with the lights on and with flash so you can see the setup in my basement:

- - Sony VPH1271, table mounted with cover off

- - s-video DVD set top box

- - Wrinkled twin-size bed sheet stapled to the joists (shhh, don't tell my wife) 5' in front of my usual screen

- - image is about 7'-8' wide (how long is a bedsheet?)

- - projector is about 11' in front of sheet

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/vph-rp01.jpg 


And here's a shot from behind the sheet, which would be the viewing side in an RP setup:

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/vph-rp02.jpg 


Hmmm. Let's hope the RP materials are a little better. 


-Clarence


----------



## bruce can

You forgot to post the brand of the sheet and the knit count 


looks good ! i am impressed what the back of a sheet looks like


Bruce


----------



## garyfritz

That's some pretty major hot-spotting, though, if you can actually see the three individual CRTs. To use something like this you'd have to project from off-axis so you didn't have the CRTs in the line of sight. But obviously the majority of the light is going straight through the sheet, so you'd lose the majority of your lumens to that hot spot. I don't think the Fresnel screens have anything to worry about just yet. Maybe with a higher thread count. 


I'm really surprised warcher1 seemed to have little or no ghosting from his second-surface mirrors. I figured a first-surface mirror would be required, and that would be Majorly Expensive for the size of mirror you'd need for any major folding. I.e. you can use a smallish mirror if you just want to park it right in front of the projector just to turn the projection 90deg, but if you wanted to double or triple the throw distance by folding it once or twice, and you wanted a 8-10' screen, your final mirror is going to be Really Big. And front-surface mirrors only seem to come in hyper-optically-perfect versions that are hugely expensive even for tiny mirrors. If you could get away with a front-surface mirror for at least the final bounce, that would make a folded light path more possible.


I dunno, I'm probably crazy to even think of this for my application. But it sure would be nice to have the PJ in another room!!


----------



## Clarence

Here's RP test #2:


I went to Home Depot and bought a 42"x48" bathroom vanity mirror. Not first-surface, of course.

I hung it with yellow twine from the ceiling joists.

I put the VPH1271 on the floor and stuck a couple of 2x4s under the nose (lenses) to angle it up a little towards the mirror.


Picture taken with lights on and with flash:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/rp-mirror1.jpg 


Still using the wrinkled sheet.

Except now the projector throw distance (depth) is cut in half.

The distance between the mirror and the sheet is only 5.5'! (my "virtual projection closet").

Resulting image is still ~8' wide.


The results are impressive...


The twine lines in front of the mirror are oddly not even noticeable in the projected image. The mirror is also still incredibly dusty. I guess the wrinkled sheet hides a lot of flaws.


But the image on the viewing side of the sheet is bright and evenly lit - no hotspotting or fading to black on the edges.


The RGB lights from the projector are no longer visible within the projected frame. I have to stand tall and look down into the frame to see the tubes.


It feels weird to walk a foot in front of the screen without casting a "RGB shadow".


-Clarence


----------



## Phil Smith

Well you're getting some perplexing results. The first screen shot where you can see the projector's tubes is not hot spotting. Other than the tubes, the brightness is pretty uniform. Maybe the tubes are visible through the tiny holes in the sheet, allowing direct light through? I don't know, but I don't understand it.


On your latest experiment, I would think you would still be able to see the tubes. Does that setup have a lot of key stone correction? I'm guessing that if your pj/mirror/screen is lined up with zero or little angle, you'll still be able to see the tubes, at least with the sheet.


This might come in handy. Paper Trick It turned what I thought would be extremely difficult into something simple.


----------



## Phil Smith

I cut out a zero degree triangle just to play around with. Pretty neat.

http://www.dallasmusic.org/Ebay/paper-1.jpg 

http://www.dallasmusic.org/Ebay/paper-2.jpg


----------



## GlenC

Just anotherthought here. What about placing the projector on the floor facing the seating and use a mirror to project back to a FP screen (like the original big screen TVs) This would open the prime front row center seat and no ceiling obstruction. A good FP screen material might be the Da-Lite Cinema Vision 1.3 gain. This can be purchased cut to size by the square foot around $5+.


----------



## Clarence

Phil- Thanks for that link, I need to re-read it. I understand the concept about folding the paper to determine the mirror location and height, but what do you use for angles? What do you mean by "zero degree angle"?


And what did you used as fixed measurements when cutting your triangle? desired height of screen and calculated throw distance?


My current setup (from test #2 pictured above) has the screen and mirror parallel to each other. I definitely don't have any intended tilt to the mirror (yet).


The projector is propped 4" high (2 2x4s and the little VPH built-in feet knobs extended). I haven't even see the keystone adjustment on this Sony yet (I still need to RTFM), but the image sides look squared enough just eyeballing it.


I might do test #3 tonight and spin the whole setup around so the mirror is infront of my old screen. Because in test #2, I can only stand a couple of feet in the intended viewing area.


Glen, I understand your approach, but that still leaves the magical smoke and mirrors in the same room as the audience. Maybe if you had ceilings higher than 8'. Then you could hide the mirror in like a raised orchestra pit in front of the screen or behind a bar. But a 42" mirror will be pretty hard to design around. And the bright CRTs would be shining into your eyes if you walked near the mirror. Plus, I wouldn't want the mirror on the floor in the same room with my kids and their friends. That's another advantage of the rear projection closet.


-Clarence


----------



## Phil Smith

When I said zero degrees I was referring to the projection angle. The triangle represents the projected cone. I can't explain it well. Maybe this drawing will help. The center line represents the projection angle.

http://www.dallasmusic.org/Ebay/triangles.jpg


----------



## Clarence

Here's some cut and paste from the VPH manual (they don't show a mirror setup)...











I think the angle that's hurting my brain most is the natural 13.4 degree tilt of the tubes in the chassis. Plus, due to my riser, wouldn't I need the optical axis to rise, e.g. to say 11.4 degrees instead of the 15.4 shown in the bottom illustration? Or is zero (13.4) best?


If I can just sketch the proper projection cone (and the distance from the lenses to the screen, "B") for my desired screen height, then all I have to do is fold the cone to figure out the height and angle of the mirror.


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

And here's the quick hack at my proposed setup (angles or distances are not to scale)











-Clarence


----------



## garyfritz

Clarence, how deep is your projection room, so how long is your throw & how big will your screen be? Are you concerned about hotspotting since the PJ will appear to be right behind the screen?


----------



## Phil Smith

Clarence,


My understanding of all of this is sketchy, and I'm even less able to explain it. Someone more qualified needs to jump in and help out on this. (I'm surprised that hasn't happened.)


----------



## madclammer

anyone used the dazian material yet ?


----------



## Clarence

Some more setup geometry diagrams for Marquee RP (just notes to myself that I thought I'd share for future searchers)...





























-Clarence

 

rp-marquee.zip 50.4794921875k . file


----------



## Tim Smith

Clarence,


When the manual says that the mirror size needs to be D1/D x Screen Size, is it assumed mirror size and screen size is measured by the diagonal?


----------



## Clarence

Isn't the mirror the same proportion as the screen, so

Mh=(D1/D)*Sh

Mw=(D1/D)*Sw


-Clarence


----------



## CFC

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*Some more setup geometry diagrams for Marquee RP (just notes to myself that I thought I'd share for future searchers)...



-Clarence*
Clarence,

Where can I get those images? I'd like to read up some on RP setups.


Thanks,


CFC


----------



## Clarence

I'm a CRT PDF manual pack rat. I just found it again on my hard drive. I don't know where I got it from originally, but I uploaded a copy of it here:

hd800_manual_aka_marquee_8000.pdf (3.2 Mb)


-Clarence

Quote:

Sometimes I switch to "AVS white" just to be cool
P.S. I switched to AVS White once because I hated the gaudy default colors here, but it threw off the light control in my HT.


----------



## CFC

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*I'm a CRT PDF manual pack rat. I just found it again on my hard drive. I don't know where I got it from originally, but I uploaded a copy of it here:

hd800_manual_aka_marquee_8000.pdf (3.2 Mb)


-Clarence*
Thank you much sir 

I'm assuming that the instructions are "similar" for any other projector, or are they stricly relevant for a marquee 8000?

I'm really enjoying this thread by the way, I'm just lurking for knowledge 

oh ... what are the main advantages of an RP setup? Acts better in bright lighting?


Thanks again,

CFC


----------



## Clarence

Should be very similar with all CRTs. The only difference may be the native tilt of the tubes in the chassis.


My main goal is to hide the 150# chunk of metal and glass that's hanging above my ideal seating sweet spot, right at the height where my noggin is when I stand up. It's suitable in our current unfinished basement, but I'm hoping for a very clean, finished, theatrical look in our new house. Hush boxes just hide the problem, and give you a prettier oak surface to bump into.


Plus, not having to look into the bright light when facing the projector.


Plus, no shadows for my kids to cast on the screen while they inevitably dance in the RGB spotlights.


Hushes the noise and houses the AV equipment and cables in the projection room. That inevitable tangle of snakes will look better behind a wall.


Higher ambient room light; although our new HT has no windows.


I've read mixed reviews as to whether the RP PQ is incredibly better (reference quality), comparable, or slightly dimmer due to the material tint.


I plan to build the 90% RP solution mockup in the next few weeks (buy 10' of the RP material, build a 2x4 frame, tension it with grommets and bungees, use a standard mirror) and then decide whether to deploy it full-scale in July when we move (full wall and equipment closet, masking/drapes, primary surface mirror).


Worst case scenario, I spend $200 in dazian, if I don't like it, I sell it and lose a few bucks, and we go back to a painted DIY screen which I'm currently ecstatic with.


-Clarence


----------



## CFC

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*My main goal is to hide the 150# chunk of metal and glass that's hanging above my ideal seating sweet spot, right at the height where my noggin is when I stand up. It's kinda fun in our current unfinished basement, but I'm hoping for a very clean, finished, theatrical look in our new house. Hush boxes just hide the problem, and give you a prettier oak surface to bump into.


Plus, not having to look into the bright light when facing the projector.


Plus, no shadows for my kids to cast on the screen while they inevitably dance in the RGB spotlights.


Hushes the noise and houses the AV equipment and cables in the projection room. That inevitable tangle of snakes will look better behind a wall.


Higher ambient room light; although our new HT has no windows.


I've read mixed reviews as to whether the RP PQ is incredibly better (reference quality), comparable, or slightly dimmer due to the material tint.


I plan to build the 90% RP solution mockup in the next few weeks (buy 10' of the RP material, build a 2x4 frame, tension it with grommets and bungees, use a standard mirror) and then decide whether to deploy it full-scale in July when we move (full wall and equipment closet, masking/drapes, primary surface mirror).


Worst case scenario, I spend $200 in dazian, if I don't like it, I sell it and lose a few bucks, and we go back to a painted DIY screen which I'm currently ecstatic with.


-Clarence*
Very nice,

you also seem to be quit a snapper, so I'm sure all this will be chronicled with pictures and all. I can't wait 

Sounds like a whole lot of fun ... meanwhile, I've yet to buy a projector.

Good Luck,


CFC


----------



## Clarence

I just saw (and bought) 10'x10' of Da-Lite RP on fleabay (3808753797).


Does anybody know if this is any good or what the rated gain is? Lots of info, but no specifics on da-lite.com


Oh well, we'll find out next week.


I figured at 93 cents/sq ft it'd be worth experimenting with. Worst case, I use it as a shower curtain or a tarp for my excess projectors. 


Stay tuned,

Clarence


----------



## GlenC

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*I just saw (and bought) 10'x10' of Da-Lite RP on fleabay (3808753797).


Does anybody know if this is any good or what the rated gain is? Lots of info, but no specifics on da-lite.com


Oh well, we'll find out next week.


I figured at 93 cents/sq ft it'd be worth experimenting with. Worst case, I use it as a shower curtain or a tarp for my excess projectors. 


Stay tuned,

Clarence*
Do you know which one you got? If it is the DA-TEX, 1.8 gain, it's going to hot-spot a little. I have a small sample and when held in front of a flashlight and move back and forth, I can see the source of light. The DUAL VISION is a off white with 1.0 gain and I do not see source.


Hope this helps


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Do you know which one you got? If it is the DA-TEX, 1.8 gain, it's going to hot-spot a little. I have a small sample and when held in front of a flashlight and move back and forth, I can see the source of light. The DUAL VISION is a off white with 1.0 gain and I do not see source.
I don't know. Is "avforsale" from Atlanta a forum member? Picture just looks like a tarp...










I'd read that RP gain seems to be exaggerated more than FP.

Oh well, hopefully it's better than my bedsheet or Phil's shower curtain.

I was going to order 10' of dazian tonight, but I'll hold off until after I test this da-lite.


-Clarence


----------



## GlenC

Clarence,


Since it is gray, it is the DA-TEX. Great price! Look forward to hear how it works.


Da-Lite Fast Fold info here


----------



## dokworm

Another RP contender is here
http://www.theatrestyle.com/acrobat/.../SHOW_1300.pdf 


It comes in either 1.4m wide or 2m wide so big screens are OK (approx 4 1/2 ft wide or 6 1/2 ft wide) and is only about USD$40 yd, and USD$75 yd respectively.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Since it is gray, it is the DA-TEX. Great price!
Egads...
Da-Lite Da-tex 10'x10' rear projection screen material (no frame) 

$817.00


And I thought I foolishly splurged at $93!


Quote:

Another RP contender is here
but their best gain at 0 degrees RP is only 0.4!


----------



## dokworm

Ouch - time for a light cannon


----------



## Phil Smith

Clarence,


The ebay auction says it's da-mat, which isn't an RP screen. You might want to contact the seller about that.


Those types of screens are used by production, sound and rental companies for concerts, conventions, etc. and have lived the hard life. If you don't buy this screen (which if it's da-mat I wouldn't) I would ask specific questions about the condition before bidding on anymore screens like this.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

MANUFACTURED BY: Da-Lite

MODEL: 10x10*Rear*Mat

Da-lite 10x10, *Rear* Fastfold Screen Surface

DESCRIPTION: Dalite 10x10' Fastfold *Rear Projection Screen* Surface. No screen frame included.

Note: Looks nice!
Like I always say, I only gamble what I can afford to lose. I'll wait and see what shows up. But I'll keep my expectations low.


-Clarence


----------



## Phil Smith

Geez! I did a search on "RearMat" and by the time I got to Da-Lite's website and started poking around, somehow my mind had morphed it into "DaMat".


I do that and I don't even drink. As long as I'm going to suffer the symptoms I might as well drink up!


----------



## dokworm

I'd put it down to sandblasting induced temporary insanity...


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Andrikos_

Since your riser will only be 9" high, you cannot mount the subs on the sides of the rise... Of couse, mounting them up wouldn't be practical at all (dust, baby fingers etc. etc. would go on them).

You'll either have to make "risen" risers about 16"+ square or somehow mount them facing downwards (at the bottom of the structure?!?)


I think the best option is the first one with the subs facing the middle of the screen.


Sealed = exactly what it means; you just make a STURDY sealed box, no need to worry about PORTS, tuning, etc. etc.

Did I mention the box needs to be sturdy?  and sealed? 

Use lots of damping and stuffing in the interior of the box:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=268-020 

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=260-330 


Good luck, I'll be checking in on you! 
Hey Andrikos (and/or anybody else who knows the "A" side of "A/V"),


Now that I've got RP screen material on the way to test, I can look for other pieces...


My wife is going through the basement rounding up stuff for the church yardsale this weekend. She's approaching my old Kenwood "KR-V7020" receiver from circa 1990. 100w/channel x4, plus 2 small (15W) surrounds...


Is this capable of driving subs or BKs under my riser?


My current receiver (JBL DCR600-II 5.1 DD/DTS/L7; I know some people don't like JBL, but I love this thing) in addition to the regular output running to its sub, also has a single RCA-connector output that says "LFE/Subwoofer". Can I run this (maybe split it to L/R inputs?) into phono/CD/tape inputs of the older receiver to drive the subs? Can I use an old receiver as a sub amp, or is there a more practical (yet frugal) approach?


I also have (2) 3-way 15" speakers from the same era. The woofers still look good. Kinda a white canvas material; not the dried-up faded black construction paper. The boxes are too deep to fit in the frame, but are the woofers still capable of serving as subs? Should I disconnect the mids and tweets and give it a try? Don't be scared to say "just give them away".


Thanks,

Clarence


----------



## Mark_A_W

Clarence, is there any way you could mount sub drivers in a wall/floor so that another room/cupboard/something forms the IB?


Yes you can use your old receiver like you described. I would avoid sub plate amps like the plague, most have bass boost built in , and they rarely live up to their power ratings.



Mark

Google "the cult of the infinitely baffled" if you want to know more about IB's. Basically the more big drivers the better!


----------



## Clarence

 FAQ: The cult of the infinitely baffled 

Thanks!


>> is there any way you could mount sub drivers in a wall/floor so that another room/cupboard/something forms the IB?


I was thinking about building separate sealed box(es) under/within the riser for the IB. The riser will probably be built with carpeted plywood on top of 2"x8" frame. But I don't know if this will be too muffled... maybe drill 3" holes every 12" in the riser frame?


But this could be a problem:

"We do not recommend placing the IB behind the listening position (too many potential phase related issues with the mains)."


But this sounds promising for removing the 15" woofers from my old speakers:

"Will any driver work? Most 'normal' woofers satisfactory for sub use in sealed or ported designs will be satisfactory."


I'll have to read some more to see if IB could fit in the screen (equipment room) wall or the proscenium (stage).


>> Yes you can use your old receiver like you described. I would avoid sub plate amps like the plague


I guess I don't understand what a "sub plate amp" is.


Thanks,

Clarence


----------



## Mark_A_W

A sub plate amp is the screw in amp most powered subs have - as opposed to a stand alone power amp with a proper case.


Excursion is the killer with IB, not power handling. There is no volume of air acting as a spring and protecting the driver like a sealed box.


You really need a couple of long throw 15"s like the Dayton IB, Dayton DVC or Adire Tempest. You may get away with your old 15"s, can't say for sure.


At worst they could tide you over till you can find $250 for a pair of Daytons. Hell if they're just kicking around, and you have a spare receiver, and you can jerry rig some kind of baffle in a doorway/cupboard or something, try it!


Due to the fact you aren't trying to force the driver against a resisting cushion of air like a conventional box, 100watts should be enough, more will just bottom out a normal driver.


An IB has the best sound of all subs, especially for music, but may not be punchy enough for LFE, a little EQ may be required, causing excusion issues again.


But theres no huge box in the room - a huge advantage IMO.


I have a pair of 15" Dayton DVC's gathering dust earmarked for an IB, it's next after the hushbox and pelmets over the curtains - I already have a pair of DIY subs with Adire Shivas, so the IB is not exactly essential ;-)


I'm going to mount them face to face, either side of a small box with the bottom open into the room through a hole in the ceiling. This is called the manifold. The face to face mounting cancels the mechanical vibrations caused when the drivers move.


The ceiling shouldn't rattle (fingers crossed) due to the fact the the drivers are pressurising the whole roof cavity - meaning the actual pressure rise/fall is very low. Well it shouldn't rattle much more than the room does now with the Shivas, but I guess the pressure change it sees will be double what it is now.


This is unlike a small sealed box, which has to be build like the proverbial brick $hithouse, because the pressure rise is ENORMOUS as the volume is small.


(DIY speakers was my path into CRT projectors)


Mark


----------



## penticton102

madclammer i got the folks at dazian to send me a sample and was not impressed with the product actually my painted wall had a better result than the dazian material IMHO..................


----------



## madclammer

thanks. thats what i thought yet i was only moments away from buying some. you saved me some money ! Looks like a used pro rear screen might be the way to go for me. Ive never seen any 16/9 rear screens on videogon or ebay though. Wish there was a diy with plexi though.


----------



## Clarence

penticton- your painted wall did better RP than the dazian?!


I ordered the dazian sample and couldn't tell diddly from a 6" scrap. Darnit... let madclammer order it so he can report back to the rest of us!


I hope my 10'x10' da-lite will be a better test case, but I'm still looking at 5-6 other ~$200 RP screens 


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

Here's my latest hack at trying to calculate the angles for my projection closet and mirror. The distances aren't to scale, I'll update my visio diagram tonight.


Here's the original diagram:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/rp214.gif 


And after a little copy/rotate/paste trickery (and I made theta=0, here's my updated rendition:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/rp15-zero-tilt.gif 


-Clarence


----------



## penticton102

thats the probelm a six inch sample is hard to judge by , but from what i saw it wasn,t worth the effort............


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*Here's my latest hack at trying to calculate the angles for my projection closet and mirror.*
See, I'm paying attention. But, are you missing a mirror? Illustrations I've seen from the big boys use TWO first surface mirrors. Projected light bounces off one mirror onto the other then out to the viewer in a "Z" pattern. Yes? No? Both work?


----------



## Clarence

0, 1, 2,... 583 mirrors, they'd all work.


Like this:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/2mirrors.gif 


That reduces the height of the projector (so your screen can go lower) and further reduces the depth needed for the projection closet.


But my simple mind already hurts enough just trying to calculate the geometry with one mirror.


I don't know why I bother with the math... I'm just going to physically adjust it until it's lined up anyways. But at least the drawings will get me +/- 10%.


-Clarence


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*Like this:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/2mirrors.gif 




-Clarence*
Yep. I believe another reason it's done that way is to insure proper focus alignment as the two mirrors are parallel with each other. No keystoning required.


----------



## Clarence

Hmm. The zero-keystoning was an interesting consideration, so here's tonight's test setup:

http://www.proscreeninc.com/images/rearscreen.jpg 


Lot's of cool RP setup pictures on this site , too.


Egads... the OptaKong adjustable frame Flash animation is cool to watch, but does anyone really need that much adjustability?


Interesting light loss numbers: 6% per first-surface glass reflection, 12% for acrylic.


-Clarence


(EDIT) And this is a good PDF on first-surface vs standard mirrors ... _"Roughly speaking and assuming a perfect mirror at the second surface, the intensity of each of these two ghost images is about 10% of the incoming light, and the principal image suffers a corresponding drop in intensity to about 80% of its initial brightness."_


----------



## GlenC

The major problem with the 2 mirror applications is the cost of the large mirror. If the goal is to reduce the projection room depth to 1/2 of the throw distance, then, with TD of 13' and about 110" screen width, room depth 6.5' and with the probable tilt on the mirror, the mirror would be at about 5.5'. With the formula given before, d1 would be 7.5' (13'-5.5') this would mean a mirror at least 63" wide plus some for keystone. If the mirror were at a 45 degree angle, then the height needed would be about 50"


I got my samples of the Da-Lite fabrics, Da-Tex and Dual Vision. the Da-Tex looks like it will hot-spot. The Dual Vision is a lot better, but the white fabric needs controlled light in the room. The other sample I got was the Da-Plex Video Vision (info) , this really looks good. It is a frosted white surface on plexi-glass. Testing with a bright flashlight, I cannot see any hot-spotting.


----------



## madclammer

Ive seen da-tex replacement screen material 72" wide for $212 0r 8'/8'(2 16/9's) for $700 on nextag. what is the pricing like for the da-plex ? ducking.....


----------



## penticton102

why not try mirror light the tin foil material in a rp set lighter than a glass mirror and gives the same result..................


----------



## GlenC

Quote:

_Originally posted by madclammer_
*Ive seen da-tex replacement screen material 72" wide for $212 0r 8'/8'(2 16/9's) for $700 on nextag. what is the pricing like for the da-plex ? ducking.....*
For me, Expensive.......... MSRP


----------



## madclammer

rear goo on plexi is sounding sweet to me. arent the goo people super cool ? any one tested rear goo ?(screen paint)


----------



## Clarence

Hi Andrikos-


While you're here, do you have any advice for post #126 (sending LFE to my old receiver as a woofer amp)


Thanks,

Clarence


----------



## CFC

This may seem like a dumb question, but can a digital projector be setup for rear projection like CRTs?


Thanks for the insight,

CFC


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

can a digital projector be setup for rear projection like CRTs?
Sure. Nothing different. Check this DLP out:
http://www.hometheaterwall.com/images/3d-diagram.gif 

http://www.hometheaterwall.com/what-is.html


----------



## RVonse

Clarence,

Its too bad you have to use the mirrors. Without the mirrors you could easily do a killer Marquee stack with super high brightness and resolution. There would hardly be no limit to the amount of projectors you stack still maintaning no keystone correction


If I had the space I would try it myself.


----------



## GlenC

Quote:

_Originally posted by RVonse_
*Clarence,

Its too bad you have to use the mirrors. Without the mirrors you could easily do a killer Marquee stack with super high brightness and resolution. There would hardly be no limit to the amount of projectors you stack still maintaining no keystone correction


If I had the space I would try it myself.*
Not quite true. The only way for "zero" keystone correction, and it can only be on the green tube, is to have the center of the green tube in-line with the center of the screen. You can't get more than one projector in the same space.


I have been looking into building a new HT and now with the couple threads on RP, looking into that direction. Because I wanted at least a 110" wide screen, I have decided on 2 Marquee's. Attached is an idea of how I might do it and achieve a 5 degree projection angle. Cannot seem to get it smaller unless I eliminate the mirrors and with a 16' deep projection room, mount them back to back and then might get it down to about 2 degrees.

 

rp stack.pdf 12.728515625k . file


----------



## Clarence

Glen- really cool stack! But that floor is dirtier than mine. 


Andrikos- Thanks. I've still got a lot of reading to do on IB. Right now my plan just has an open entry (no door) behind a curtain to get into the RP equipment room. Would it matter if I use phono vs tape vs CD inputs for LFE? Should I get a splitter cable to split the single RCA LFE output jack into L/R inputs?


-Clarence


----------



## overclkr

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*Glen- really cool stack! But that floor is dirtier than mine. 


Andrikos- Thanks. I've still got a lot of reading to do on IB. Right now my plan just has an open entry (no door) behind a curtain to get into the RP equipment room. Would it matter if I use phono vs tape vs CD inputs for LFE? Should I get a splitter cable to split the single RCA LFE output jack into L/R inputs?


-Clarence*
Clarence,


I'm really looking foward to seeing the finished product! Your gonna have to fly out me and the famdamily for a movie night!!


Cliffy


----------



## Clarence

OK, I've got some extra frequent flyer tickets. Bring your rejected/neglected Barco with new tube and it's a deal.


Even better, come early and bring a framing nailer and a drywall blade.


----------



## Mark_A_W

Anthing but phono Clarence. Phono will NOT work. CD, tape, aux, whatever, just not phono.


----------



## overclkr

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*OK, I've got some extra frequent flyer tickets. Bring your rejected/neglected Barco with new tube and it's a deal.


Even better, come early and bring a framing nailer and a drywall blade.


*
Not rejected my friend...


Just set aside for now :^)


You are taking on one hell of a project. The hard work will pay off for sure though in the end.


Talk to ya.


Cliff


----------



## dokworm

Well, I finally bought some Dazian, and

all I can say is that it looks a lot better than the sample 

I don't have another rear projection setup to compare it to, but it doesn't hotspot, works very well in ambient light, and seems fairly bright. Don't know about detail yet as I haven't done a recalibration with the unit setup for RP.

Don't know what else I can say about it though, Oh yeah, its grey.


----------



## Clarence

Cool, dokworm. How large did you buy?


----------



## dokworm

I will have to measure the final screen and get back to you, but big!

I went with the largest width fabric and then made a 16:9 screen with the 'width' being the 9


----------



## CMRA

Because of all the recent activity on RP I did some private research.

First, the good news: Your'e going in the right direction. Some of the biggest players in HT will have it no other way. It's ALL about PQ.

Now, the part DIYers don't want to hear/read. You'll need specialized screens and mirrorless projection setups to duplicate their results.


That isn't to say you cannot get good results. Only those set on getting the very best image need follow their lead.


I'll personally be looking more and more into this in the weeks to come. I have a unique situation which would allow me to set up a mirrorless RP setup.


Thanks one and all for arousing my curiosity. I was beginning to wonder what I was going to do with the rest of my life.


----------



## dokworm

Have to disagree on the mirrors. I can't see an astronomic quality front surfaced mirror degrading the image in a way detectable by the human eye. If it's good enough for hubble, it's good enough for me...


But yeah, for the ultimate rear projection a true ultra fine lenticular screen is the bees knees, but very few can afford it. They do look insanely gorgeous though.


Most of us are interested in RP for other benefits though, people can't block the beams i.e. you can sit/stand as close as you like. All the gear is hidden and hushed. It copes better with ambient light.

It looks like a giant flatscreen TV or magic  (my favourite bit)


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_

Because of all the recent activity on RP I did some private research.

First, the good news: Your'e going in the right direction. Some of the biggest players in HT will have it no other way. It's ALL about PQ.

Now, the part DIYers don't want to hear/read. You'll need specialized screens and mirrorless projection setups to duplicate their results.
I'm not trying to "duplicate their results", I'm just trying to make a practical set up with the limited resources that I have. I'm not trying to design the "best" RP setup, but just trying to create an enjoyable way for my family to watch movies, which is almost only a secondary artifact of my hobbyist's enjoyment of learning and planning. It's not "ALL about PQ" for me.


This thread isn't called "the best RP theater plan", it's called "Clarence's new theater plans". I'm not a videophile... I'm only a frugal geek with tired eyesight who likes computers and visualization and watching *big* movies with my boys.


I'm not too worried about using a mirror to cut the size of my RP room in half. But admittedly, with the test I've done using the standard vanity mirror, I've learned that I want a first surface mirror, especially after performing the test on the last page of this article . Now I have to see if I can only afford acrylic first-surface, or if I can salvage some decent glass. Sure, if I had 30'+ feet for a non-mirrored RP setup, I might try it, but I don't consider it "bad news" that using a mirror might have a measureable impact on PQ.


Like everything else, there's usually a trade between quality and cost. I'm not ashamed to admit that my cost cutoffs might come a notch before the other enthusiasts in this forum. Bang for the buck. But I won't be ashamed to turn on my $511 CRT and shine it on my $93 da-lite RP 10' screen and watch movies with my family, friends, neighbors, and even other visiting forum members.


This is starting to look like a rant, but it's not supposed to be. And this thread is starting to look like a guide to RP setups, but it wasn't supposed to be. I've still got to tackle framing, sound insulation, wiring, and lighting. Be prepared. Each of those implementations aren't going to be state of the art either (but, ooh, state of the "Art" is fun to watch and dream and drool over in the HT builder forum). I look forward to seeing CMRA's non-mirrored RP setup, too.


Maybe should retitle this "A Diary of Clarence's Compromises in his New Theater". But I'm still climbing up the learning curve and I appreciate all of the constructive inputs.


-Clarence


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Andrikos: are you actually building a patio? 


I know tons of people who do this sort of thing " but it was SOO cheap!"


Yet they have no use for it. The more you buy the more you save right?


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by dokworm_
*Have to disagree on the mirrors. I can't see an astronomic quality front surfaced mirror degrading the image in a way detectable by the human eye. If it's good enough for hubble, it's good enough for me...


But yeah, for the ultimate rear projection a true ultra fine lenticular screen is the bees knees, but very few can afford it. They do look insanely gorgeous though.


Most of us are interested in RP for other benefits though, people can't block the beams i.e. you can sit/stand as close as you like. All the gear is hidden and hushed. It copes better with ambient light.

It looks like a giant flatscreen TV or magic  (my favourite bit)*
A good first surface mirror shouldn't degrade the pq, however, since nothing in life is perfect, getting a 100% optical alignment with mirrors is VERY difficult, if not impossible


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

getting a 100% optical alignment with mirrors is VERY difficult, if not impossible
I'm the king of positive spin...

Whoo-hoo... I'll have something additional to blame my poor (lazy) focus and convergence skills on!


After clearly seeing/reading genmax's 6pt text from his XG, I know I have a lot of room for improvement and can see extreme value in practice and experience (or hiring a good tech with the magic skills).


Trust me, if mirrored RP proves too challenging to align, I'll be the first one to say so and I'll rip the wall out and go back to ceiling mounted FP faster than you can spell "scheimpflug".


-Clarence


----------



## techman707

I didn't say you wouldn't like it....even if it isn't perfect.


----------



## Clarence

Sorry Bruce if I sounded defensive. But it seems like all I'm getting is negative vibes against mirrored-RP before I even get to play with it.


I'm hoping to get some real first-surface glass mirrors tomorrow and I hope my da-lite RP 10' screen is here on Monday. Big week at work though... Argh, I hate when work interferes with play. 


-Clarence


----------



## techman707

There NOTHING wrong with mirrored RP if you need to increase the throw and don't have the room. I'm only saying it's difficult to get a good optical alignment.


The reason regular RP sets aren't a nightmare is because they make thousands and have jigs to set it up in a captured box.


----------



## Tedd

Any other pitfalls you can think of, techman707? I also am seriously considering a DIY rear projection setup with a front reflective mirror (maybe two but one would be far simpler) and I'd love to know all areas where this could get tricky. I could design some fine adjustibility control into the framework supporting my Barco and mirror(s). I also have access to a full metal shop and a brother in law who builds custom machinery to very fine tolerances (and owes me a few favours...)


----------



## GlenC

Mirror set-ups should not be much more difficult than non-mirror. With both you have to make sure that the projector is properly centered, leveled and square with the screen. Once that is assured, adjusting the mirrors to align the picture on the screen is about all that is left. From what I have seen on first surface mirror specs, 97% reflectance is the best. So with two mirrors, you loose 6% of the light.


I would think that making a frame as stable as possible would be needed to eliminate any vibration or movement in the picture.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Tedd_
*Any other pitfalls you can think of, techman707? I also am seriously considering a DIY rear projection setup with a front reflective mirror (maybe two but one would be far simpler) and I'd love to know all areas where this could get tricky. I could design some fine adjustibility control into the framework supporting my Barco and mirror(s). I also have access to a full metal shop and a brother in law who builds custom machinery to very fine tolerances (and owes me a few favours...)*
My main experience with mirrors goes back about 20 years ago when I was installing a 7 theatre multi-plex for AMC. Because they were opening up junk-box theatres in shopping centers and didn't want to raise the projection booth or pitch the floor (so they could pull out without too much liability if the theatre didn't do well), they decided to go with mirrors to raise the projection port to the ceiling of the booth so it would pass over the patrons heads.


Aligning the two mirrors, in spite of having rack and pinion controls, was a nightmare. It might "sound" easy, but if you really need precision, it can take a looooong time to get "everything" from scratch into perfect alignment. Even with fine adjustment controls.


----------



## Phil Smith

I'm sure it's tuff to get everything lined up, but one alignment should be easy. On a zero degree setup, the centerline of the mirror will be on the centerline of the screen.

http://www.dallasmusic.org/Ebay/mirror.JPG 


Also, if you setup for zero degrees, regardless of how many or few mirrors you use, there's zero keystone correction.


If you play around with the paper trick, it gives you a visual that makes most of this pretty easy to understand.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_

To those in the KNOW, does RP look better than FP? When I think RP I think RPTV and that's no contest.
According to this study at Ga Tech, RP score highest on a scale from 1-7...









_"...seventeen (17) college students, 9 males and 8 females, mean age of 21.3"_ so it must be true.










Man, I wish my Master's thesis was that much fun!


P.S. I got 2 primo 31"x42" first-surface RP mirrors and a Stewart RP frame yesterday.











And my 10' Da-lite RP screen arrives tomorrow.


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by GlenC_

From what I have seen on first surface mirror specs, 97% reflectance is the best. So with two mirrors, you lose 6% of the light.
Hi Glen-


The first-surface RP mirrors I've researched have been rated at 94% (6% loss _per_ mirror). First surface acrylic is -12% each. A standard mirror loses about 20% of the principal image (10% per incident reflection, or "ghosting").


A double-mirror RP also doubles those losses.


Not that I'm going to reject the beautiful 94% first-surface mirrors I just got, but do you have links to the 97% mirrors? Are they incredibly expensive?


-Clarence


----------



## CFC

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*According to this study at Ga Tech, RP score highest on a scale from 1-7...
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/RP-vs-FP.gif 

"...seventeen (17) college students, 9 males and 8 females, mean age of 21.3" so it must be true. 


Man, I wish my Master's thesis was that much fun!


P.S. I got 2 primo 31"x42" first-surface RP mirrors and a Stewart RP frame yesterday.

http://www.da-lite.com/products/imag...ror_system.jpg 


And my 10' Da-lite RP screen arrives tomorrow.


-Clarence*
I wish I knew about those types of research while I was over there.

It's interesting , but I wonder how much the fact that most people are just "used" to RP sets plays into the perception that their image is better?


How much did the mirrors cost ? (if you don't mind my asking), and what is the formula again to determine your needed miror size?


CFC


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

How much did the mirrors cost? (if you don't mind my asking)
Nah, I'm never bashful about cost. I'm grateful to a fellow local forum member for replying to my wide query seeking RP info and equipment. The people I've met in person from this forum are just as nice, helpful, and knowledgeable as they are online.


I paid $250 for a pair (I only plan on using one in my main HT, but if the Marquee turns out nice, I'll do the same for my 1271 for my boys' playroom), plus $100 more for the Stewart frame (well, it's really still just a puzzle now since it's unassembled and didn't come with directions  ).


At first, I was leary because that was more than I paid for 3 of my projectors! But after researching prices on these mirrors, I think that was a pretty good deal. They're in great shape - not a single scratch or swirl on them.


After testing a vanity mirror from HD, I knew that the approach was feasible, but the standard mirror was just too much of a PQ compromise.


Plus, since he was local, I didn't have to pay for shipping or risk inevitable breakage (these things are 1/4" thick and have a nice metal frame and must weigh about 50 pounds _apiece_).

Quote:

what is the formula again to determine your needed mirror size?
For mirror size, draw a scaled triangle (like the brown lines in Phil's drawing in post #173 above) with calculated throw distance as length and screen height as triangle height. Then fold at any angle. The height of the fold (and the tilt angle) is the scale height of the mirror needed.


-Clarence


----------



## GlenC

Clarence,


I just found these mirrors over the weekend. Was too busy today to contact them, so I don't know about pricing. Mirotek I plan to look into old Mits RP TVs for a possible source of mirrors, even if they are 94% the price might be right for starters. Same with the screen, I may start with the Optitrans, Dazian or Da-Lite fabric first. Then when all is done and working well, go to the Da-Lite Da-Plex with the Video Vision (about $3700 MSRP).


The Stewart frame looks great. Was that a e-bay item at $100?


Be careful what you believe in surveys, it's too easy to tailor the results. Thats like having 100 people drive a Cadillac STS and a Ford Focus and saying results showed more people preferred GM over Ford???????????


----------



## Clarence

Thanks Glen.


Yep. I'd seen that mirotek and ocli site, but must've missed that 97% material. Please post a summary of prices when you query them. Just for giggles, ask them how much that 74"x130" mirror is... I was previously toying with doing a mega-scale painted-mirror "fusion" screen as inspired by the Screens forum (my small scale test was very promising).


I'll e-mail them just to see how the 94% vs 97% compares for 31"x42" (plus S/H).


Compton will be much better for you than shipping to VA. (Whittier, eh?... I used to spend quite a bit of time in Pico... always stayed in a decent hotel in Whittier).


-Clarence


----------



## CMRA

Clarence, I told you I'd follow your adventure,


Now I know you are good, but...


"I paid $250 for a pair (I only plan on using one in my main HT, but if the Marquee turns out nice, I'll do the same for my 1271 for my boys' playroom), plus $100 more for the Stewart frame (well, it's really still just a puzzle now since it's unassembled and didn't come with directions ).


At first, I was leary because that was more than I paid for 3 of my projectors! But after researching prices on these mirrors, I think that was a pretty good deal. They're in great shape - not a single scratch or swirl on them."


...does this mean you got three CRT PJs for under $250.00?

Please explain.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_

"I paid $250 for a pair... plus $100 more for the Stewart frame... At first, I was leary because that was more than I paid for 3 of my projectors! But after researching prices on these mirrors, I think that was a pretty good deal. They're in great shape - not a single scratch or swirl on them."


...does this mean you got three CRT PJs for under $250.00?

Please explain.
Each, not all total... ($225, $153, $254) plus I splurged on my $511 Marquee. Just to make everyone even sicker... 12 tubes and not a single one has visible wear.


----------



## VideoGrabber

Clarence explained:

> ...with calculated throw distance as length and screen height as triangle height


----------



## Clarence

Yep. I think any of these calculations should only be trusted to about +/-10%. The final 6"-12" should be left to actual visual alignment before any of the mounting locations are made permanent.


----------



## plain fan

Clarence,

Do you have an updated diagram of your room?


----------



## Clarence

We visited our new home this weekend. Before Easter, it was just a slab with basement walls and a pile of lumber in the road. When we came back from vacation, we had floors, stairs, framed walls, and a roof! Last weekend we got windows and shingles.


My latest sketch (v11) was way back in post #79 ...


This is still the OLD version:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht11-rp.gif 


Anyways, I brought my tape-measurer and took actuals. It's amazing how different they were from the estimates I made when modifying the tiny floor plan diagram in the sales brochure!


6" off on this wall, 2' off on this wall, deduct some space for framing and wall surface, ... all those inches start adding up and this huge space keeps shrinking. It's still deceiving to see 25' on the floorplan, but of course it's the 10' wall (still shown above as a 12' wall where the mirror is mounted) where I want my screen that is my hardest constraint.


Basically, I'm going to slide the screen wall further right to where the room widens from 10' to 14', to allow access to behind the screen (like where the subwoofer was shown). This reduces my seating-distance to screen-width ratio, but I think it'll still work out to 1.2X and 1.7X.


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

As a sidenote, I think I'm going to miss my current unfinished basement in this house that we're renting during construction.


List night I grinned when I stood in the middle of the basement...

- If you stand in the middle, one wall has my computer desk with my HTPC.

- Turn right and you face my ceiling-mounted Marquee's 14' mega screen. It also has my VPH1271 pointing at it (VPH is still floor-mounted, though)

- Turn right again and you face where I'm setting up the new RP frame and mirror and RP screen (in the next couple of weeks it'll become a full-size mockup for the setup sketched above).

- Turn right again and you'll see a 4'x8' screen of Formica with my painted mirror test hanging in front of it, with my ceiling mounted ECP3101 pointed at it.


And my ECP4101 is sitting neglected in the corner without a screen of it's own. Hmmm, wish I had a Pentagon shaped basement. 


I should post one of those panoramic QT VR movies.


-Clarence


----------



## CMRA

Clarence,

Does this mean your kids can no longer go to school and say "My daddy's screen is bigger than your daddy's screen"?


Shoot, I was expecting RP 'marcorsyscom' style. Lest any reader forget, Clarence does everything in a big way, especially screens.


----------



## Clarence

I doubt too many kids can top even a measly 9' wide screen.


If they do, I'll invite their dad over and have another friend for our "VA/MD/DC HT Meet and Geek" gatherings.


----------



## dokworm

That is a really really good price for that mirror setup.


Don't mention your projectors or the price paid ever again - I am still feeling very sick....


----------



## CFC

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*Each, not all total... ($225, $153, $254) plus I splurged on my $511 Marquee. Just to make everyone even sicker... 12 tubes and not a single one has visible wear.*
You need to give me some tutoring on where to get one at that price .... I'm serious. I need a good starter projector.


CFC


----------



## CMRA

"Don't mention your projectors or the price paid ever again - I am still feeling very sick...."


Now you know why Clarence sports the 'green' Hulk in his profile.


Oh, BTW, it's the amazing 'Saint" Clarence now.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Quote:

Don't mention your projectors or the price paid ever again - I am still feeling very sick....
Dont feel sick! Be happy that he didn't spend big bucks on a really really nice unit, then treat it so poorly by throwing a 14foot screen with it!


----------



## ChrisMcCarthy

I don't know, I prefer using the reclining couch method. Then you need 6 feet between rows, four is not enough. Or just have the front row as lazyboy reclining couches (reasonable price vs. theater seating).


Chris.


----------



## Clarence

OK, the UPS man delivered my $93 Da-Lite RP screen today... it looks (and smells) like a 10'x10' shower curtain. It's in good shape. One small booger at the top center, but since I only have 8' ceilings, I'm not going to use the full height anyways. Otherwise, it's in great shape. Not as many wrinkles as I expected. Hopefully they'll relax over the next couple of days.


I screwed a 2x4 to the basement stairs and hung the RP mirror on basement wall #3 (to go with my Marquee's 12'x8' megascreen on wall #1 and my ECP's 4x8 screen on wall #2).


I put a couple of nails in the ceiling joists and hung the screen using the loops at the top corners. It also has snaps about every 12", but I didn't have anything to snap it to (anybody got a snap grommet attacher tool?).


I dragged the VPH1271 across the room (I really should put the case back on it.) It only has 108 hours on the chassis and tubes (yes, 108; that's 5 days!) It's in great shape and it looked great when I turned it on for the first time. I haven't spent more than 3 minutes on focus and convergence (which is probably evident below).


Here's the quick setup showing the RP mirror held by a 2x4 on the bottom and yellow twine around the edge lip; tied (for adjustable tilt) at the top. See those black frame pieces? That's my unassembled Stewart RP mirror frame with a tilt platform for my CRT.


But tonight (until I figure out how that RP frame goes together), the VPH is tilted under the lenses with stacked scrap shelves (say that 5 times fast)...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/rp-ss01.jpg 


I slid the projector back a little, adjusted the mechanical center focus on the lenses, and did a 12 second alignment of the RGB crosshairs.


In the full size shots, you can see the s-video scan lines (I don't have an RGBHV IFB for this VPH yet).

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/rp-ss02.jpg 


I don't recall the dark corner in the top left of that scene, so it might be slight hotspotting (or edge fading) exaggerated by my digicam as noted by others when taking RP screenshots.


The extreme right side looked yellow because the blue was obstructed by the white drain pipe. So I slid the projector to the left and in the second screenshot, the red tube is off the edge of the mirror (see the blue tinted edge on the left?) and the left 12" of the image is completely off the screen...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/rp-ss03.jpg 


For an hour long setup including mirror, screen, and projector; I think it looks great.


-Clarence


----------



## techman707

Clarence,


Looks real good !!!


You're like Alfred Hitchcock, you always put yourself into every picture.


Bruce


----------



## Maxxarcade

With the luck Clarence has been having, I can see him getting a G90 for under $1000... oh and probably with 2 sets of spare tubes too. And maybe a free screen... 


Makes me feel stupid for paying $650 for an old Barco G800, even though it came with an iScan plus and IRIS unit. 


I also paid $600+shipping for my mint 1031Q (my first projector).


Hey Clarence, if you ever host classes on how to buy projectors, enroll me ahead of time 


Keep up the good work though, everything looks great.


----------



## Clarence

Well, my luck is running a bit thin here...


I'd done all my planning based on dimensions estimated from a really tiny sketch of the new house's floor plan.


We went to the construction site and took actual measurements last weekend. I finally updated my visio layout:

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht15-rp.gif 


Several of my key dimensions were off. How did this 25'8" x 19'2" room get so small?


I'm down to a 9' wide screen, and that's impractical because I'm only allowing for 12" of access behind a curtain next to the screen. If I move the screen forward, I lose seat/screen ratio. After watching 12' wide, I can't go down to 96". Argh.


The black squiggly lines are curtains. The black box on the rear wall is the main circuit box.


Hmmm... The boys' playroom is twice as large... (but it has 2 full height windows and a sliding glass door... too much light).


-Clarence


----------



## madclammer

I have a working 0 degree 87" wide RP 9501 set up !It fits my 14'/13' room perfectly ! Screen material was $135 plus shipping. Pq is every bit as good as it was FP with better brightness no pj noise and the ability to watch with some light ! Happy as a clam ! Thanks Clarence, Jeff and everyone else !


----------



## Tedd

You could go down to 96" and get far better picture quality for limited resolution sources like dvds. And then you can pull your seating in closer to the screen to maintain that wide viewing angle you like. The screen won't have size impact when you walk into the room but it will have the size impact when seated and watching a movie.


I also have to ask if all those walls are fixed or if some are "fixed" in the drawing to bury a support post or column? If memory serves correct, there's a bathroom behind the 10' 2" wall. If any of these boundaries are flexible, maybe a little creativity can add some volume to the room. Something along the lines of sliding under a support header and enclosing it in a valance and then exposing the support columns. Then the columns would be "played up" as a "feature" of the room. Which also makes me ask, is the ductwork and drain lines installed yet? These could end up as some surprises that can affect the design. And is the entry door fixed? I am very curious what are the interior walls and what is on the other side of them?


And since you are now exploring rear projection, perhaps you can now work in that third row of seating, now that the projector isn't taking up headroom? Even if the headroom is compromised for tall adults, it could be very suitable for kids.


----------



## Clarence

Good points Tedd...

Quote:

You could go down to 96" and get far better picture quality
Yeah, I keep telling myself that being limited to 9'w is a hidden forcing function which should yield the benefits of higher PQ that I've yet to appreciate. But my foolish 172" diagonal screen was a cheap and easy thrill for me and everyone else who tripped on their jaw when seeing it. I'm going to miss it.

Quote:

I also have to ask if all those walls are fixed or if some are "fixed" in the drawing to bury a support post or column?
Oh, they're VERY fixed... the 10'2" wall is indeed the bathroom, and all of the plumbing is right up against the wall: bath, toilet, and sink. I can't even find a place to put a 24" access panel to behind the screen. Stairs are behind the 15'6" wall with the fixed door at the bottom of the stairs. ALL of the other walls are backed with dirt.

Quote:

Which also makes me ask, is the ductwork and drain lines installed yet? These could end up as some surprises that can affect the design
Yep, I'm expecting that. Cliff's "duckwork" pictures yesterday were a nice reminder. I just hope it won't be too bad. The finished model home doesn't have any low ducts, but that space it divided into 4 separate spaces... They can't call it BR#6 because it doesn't have windows, so they call it a Den or a Bonus Room. The model has 2 huge closets: where my projection room is shown (plus a small unfinished utility closet to access the breaker box, shown on the left wall as a black square) and another closet where the 9'4"x7'8" lower-right corner is.

Quote:

perhaps you can now work in that third row of seating, now that the projector isn't taking up headroom? Even if the headroom is compromised for tall adults, it could be very suitable for kids.
Yep, as I was laying in bed last night (Sorry, Curt, no Hefner dreams for me), I was thinking that instead of moving my screen to the right a couple of feet to build an access (where the 1'6" marker is), I should try to push the screen back to gain some extra seating/screenwidth ratio, ideally enough for another row.


I'm also artificially constraining myself because I have these 40 theater seats which are in great condition... no cupholders and they don't rock, but they're suprisingly comfortable and they add to the local cineplex feel.


Maybe I'll move the screen back and add row 3 in the next draft.


Clammer: congrats on your RP! You've got to post your setup (no mirror, right?) and some screenshots. I'm very happy with the RP PQ. I couldn't isolate the light from behind the screen, so I haven't seen any additional ambient light capability, yet.


Thanks!

Clarence


----------



## Mark_A_W

Clarence, if you fully mask the screen and paint the walls and roof black, you will swear you screen is 2ft wider than it is.


Benny's room is like this, and I would have sworn his 80" wide screen was 8ft wide. If you have no frame of reference, the illusion is spooky. I was pacing Benny's screen out because I wouldn't believe it was only 80" wide.


----------



## CFC

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mark_A_W_
*it was only 80" wide.*
This is why I love this forum.

In the real world, this is an insane quote. Here, it's reality.


Clarence: It does look like you will have to go down to maybe even 8' to allow access to the back. Maybe you can think of a clever way to use the full 10' and still allow access ... build a tunnel or something. 


CFC


----------



## Clarence

Don't laugh... I've done sketches with the screen and seats slanted 20 degrees to try to use a longer diagonal...


And have you ever scooted under the bottom strand of a barbed-wire fence while laying flat on your back or belly? I was thinking instead of a proscenium (stage under the screen), I'd have a foot high access panel...


And I was wondering if I could build a Scooby-Doo hidden access door under the sink in the bathroom to crawl into the RP room.


Ooh... what about a set of folding stairs from the living room above?!


----------



## Clarence

Here's version 17...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht17-rp.gif 


Better or worse?


Has anybody installed/used a sliding pocket door? I was having a hard time with the door swinging open and hitting my risers.


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

And _in theory_, (see post #133 ), this should be the mirror geometry for a 102" RP screen.

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/mirror-screen.gif 


-Clarence


----------



## garyfritz

Clarence, I'm much too much of a klutz to *install* a sliding door, but we have one in our house. Works fine. Might tend to rattle quite a bit with lots of bass, though, since it's hanging from the top rollers and held losely at the bottom.


Looks like a mighty tight squeeze on the entry anyway. Maybe you should reduce the central row to 4 seats and narrow the riser? But of course then you wouldn't have the nice staggering of seats.


----------



## Clarence

You're right... it might look better on paper, but it'd be difficult (potentially dangerous) to enter/egress, especially in the dark.


version 18:

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht18-rp.gif 


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

You're right... it might look better on paper, but it'd be difficult (potentially dangerous) to enter/egress, especially in the dark.


Instead of a marginal 12"-18" entry, what if I don't have a door into the projector room at all?


I'm thinking about tensioning the RP screen with 6"-9" bungee cords/loops every 12".

Like these:
http://www.dazian.com/html/projection_screens.html http://www.dazian.com/assets/images/project_ties.jpg 


Shouldn't I get to the point where I don't need to touch the projector everyday? And if I mounted the HTPC (or a modded Momitsu in/under the proscenium), then I could have the full 10' screen width.


I'd just unbungee the screen (or lift a corner like a tent flap) whenever I wanted to get behind the screen...


version 19:

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht19-rp.gif 


-Clarence


P.S. In case anybody missed it (buried under today's visio revisions), I posted my first RP material screenshots last night.


----------



## Matthew Todd

Quote:

Has anybody installed/used a sliding pocket door? I was having a hard time with the door swinging open and hitting my risers
Can you install the door so that is swings out of the room instead of in?


Matt


----------



## Phil Smith

How about mounting your screen in a separate frame and hinging it at the top? If you could build a rigid enough frame, you could hinge it on the side like a door.


----------



## Jim in Cincy

Quote:

_Originally posted by Phil Smith_
*If you could build a rigid enough frame, you could hinge it on the side like a door.*
Or hinge it up to the ceiling. I thought of doing that with my theater so I could still use a window on my screen wall.


----------



## Clarence

Cool!

Like this...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/screen-hinge.gif 


-Clarence


----------



## Phil Smith

You could use a modified proscenium to house the pj and move the screen further back. The proscenium would occupy unused floor space:

http://www.dallasmusic.org/Ebay/proscenium.JPG 


It would probably require a pretty big mirror, and the proscenium might look odd. But I don't know, maybe not.


I don't know how good of idea this is...just thinking out loud...


----------



## Phil Smith

That's cool how you do the animation. Not that your drawings are anywhere near as good as mine.


----------



## CFC

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*Cool!

Like this...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/screen-hinge.gif 


-Clarence*
I would imagine that you could swing it to the side also, like a door.

Looks to be a great idea though, and VERY feasible.


CFC

P.S: Is it a no-go for the cheap projector buying tutorial?


----------



## Jim in Cincy

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*Cool!

Like this...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/screen-hinge.gif 


-Clarence*
LOL. You sure do alot of planning. I can only imagine what you did for your honeymoon night..........


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

P.S: Is it a no-go for the cheap projector buying tutorial?
I'm thinking it'd be more effective (for me) to continue buying them and using them as barter to get some of this HT construction done this summer...

*Free CRT to anyone who can hang/finish drywall in Northern VA...*

Quote:

how you do the animation
- The drawing is in Visio.

- I just rotate the hinged screen (really a big door) and use the built in open/close door slider to rotate to 4 different angles of rotation.

- Save As.. GIF (for each of the 4 frames)

- Then I use "Animation Shop" in "PaintShopPro 6". Insert 4 GIFs, Save As animated GIF.

- Took 30 seconds.


The only bad thing about your proscenium is I plan on using about 7' height in the screen material to allow 4:3 content (masked to appropriate Aspect Ratio).


I think your case would be about 3' high before the bottom of the screen could start, so that would only leave 4'-5' height for the screen.


I can't have cross braces behind my RP screen. Would 2x4's be strong enough to span 9.5' wide (and subsequently hinge), or should I look into metal pipe/tubing as a frame?


-Clarence


----------



## Phil Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jim in Cincy_
*Or hinge it up to the ceiling. I thought of doing that with my theater so I could still use a window on my screen wall.*
Quote:

_Originally posted by CFC_ *I would imagine that you could swing it to the side also, like a door. Looks to be a great idea though, and VERY feasible.*
Great ideas guys! How do you come up with this stuff?


----------



## Phil Smith

I got ya. It definitely wouldn't work with a 4:3 screen. It probably wouldn't look very good anyway.


----------



## Phil Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*I can't have cross braces behind my RP screen. Would 2x4's be strong enough to span 9.5' wide (and subsequently hinge), or should I look into metal pipe/tubing as a frame?*
I don't think wood will be stiff enough. I would think some really heavy aluminum square tubing would work.


----------



## Joshua Snyder

I have my FP screen on such a celing Hinge arrangement... works grate, I can avoid all the pitfalls of the pulldown screens that I have tryed, and still have a small Direct view CRT TV for daly watching.




as for cross bracing, if you had gotten the Frame that your RP surface was origanaly designed to be mounted on, you would not nead any. look for a 6x9 Fast fold screen with RP surface, bonus, you don't nead the legs!


Josh


----------



## Phil Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by Phil Smith_
*I don't think wood will be stiff enough. I would think some really heavy aluminum square tubing would work.*
I take that back. I think 2x4s like you mentioned would be plenty strong if you turned them on edge. The problem would be warping. Lumber is so green now days, that some of the 2x4s I bought for my project warped to an unusable degree in only a few days time.


----------



## garyfritz

*Great ideas guys! How do you come up with this stuff?*


Exactly what I was thinking when I saw your proscenium idea, Phil! That's a VERY cool idea. If only it was practical to do a 2-mirror setup, that would be a fabulous way to sneak an RP setup into a short space. There's no way I can pull something like that off for my HT, but maybe HT II .....


----------



## noah katz

"If only it was practical to do a 2-mirror setup"


You could do that by putting a mirror out where the pj now is, and the pj under the big mirror firing at it.



Might not help though because the reflected rays would hit the bottom of the screen on their (attempted) way back to the 2nd mirror.


----------



## garyfritz

Yeah, I'd put the 2nd mirror under the big mirror. Wouldn't get as much folded distance that way, but you wouldn't have as much problem hitting the bottom of the screen.


But it's the aligning of 2 mirrors that's supposed to be a nightmare. Not to mention coming up with two LARGE front-surface mirrors... I dunno if those acrylic front-surface mirrors are good enough optically, maybe if mounted flat on a piece of MDF or something, but we're still talking some fairly pricey mirrors if you're trying to throw an 8-9' image. The big mirror would probably have to be at least 6' long.


----------



## RVonse

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*Don't laugh... I've done sketches with the screen and seats slanted 20 degrees to try to use a longer diagonal...


And have you ever scooted under the bottom strand of a barbed-wire fence while laying flat on your back or belly? I was thinking instead of a proscenium (stage under the screen), I'd have a foot high access panel...


And I was wondering if I could build a Scooby-Doo hidden access door under the sink in the bathroom to crawl into the RP room.


*
Clarance,

What is the floor plan of the bath? If there happens to be a shower against the theater wall then theres the perfect oportunity for a walkthru shower with another glass door on the opposite wall. Believe or not a shower with 2 doors looks very nice. In fact, I own a house that has a"walk thru" shower (doors front and back). Its only 1 shower that has access to the master bathroom and the main bathroom. Just another floorplanning idea that might help in your situation.


----------



## Clarence

Hi Bob-


The floorplan is on post #10 . It's just a tub with a shower head.


I stopped by HD on the way home... Looks like the 1/2"d 10' copper pipe was stiff enough to build a frame. 4 pipes x $5, with 4 elbows @ 25c. So only $21. Worth a try?


Right now I can't decide how to attach it to the frame. The screen material is 10'x10'. I'm not sure what size I need, so I don't want to cut or damage it (yet).


I couldn't find any grommets or snap attachment tools. Anybody know what/where to search?


Also, has anybody seen 3-inch bungee cords?


Thanks,

Clarence


----------



## RVonse

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*Hi Bob-


The floorplan is on post #10 . It's just a tub with a shower head.




Thanks,

Clarence*
All you have to do is re-arrange the tub with the toilet which should be no problem at all since the house is not built. Put the tub right against the wall at a right angle to what it is now. Then either the toilet or the sink goes where the tub (opposite the shower head) is now. What you end up with is no wall where the tub is and then you have 2 glass sliders on both sides of the tub (lengthwise). The cost of the bath will still be about the same because you will have tub tile savings.


----------



## Tedd

I've have been toying around with the idea of using the stage itself to slide the end of my Barco 808 under/into and a low reflective angle with a 16:9 screen. Single mirror. I think it'll work video-wise, but have some concerns about creating a resonating cavity on the audio side.


I like the idea of revamping the bathroom to get a theater entry door there and flipping the screen to the opposite end of the room.


And just what speakers will you be using, Clarence? These need to be taken into consideration...


----------



## noah katz

"Looks like the 1/2"d 10' copper pipe was stiff enough to build a frame."


Steel EMT (electrical conduit) is quite a bit stiffer for the same weight and even cheaper.


Re mirrors, Mirotek's 94 1st mirrors from OCLI are pretty reasonably priced (at least compared to what the big names charge), IIRC ~$300 for 30x40.


----------



## RVonse

Quote:

_Originally posted by noah katz_
*"Looks like the 1/2"d 10' copper pipe was stiff enough to build a frame."


Steel EMT (electrical conduit) is quite a bit stiffer for the same weight and even cheaper.

*
If you are expecting either copper or conduit to span 10 feet without sagging, then think again. A 10' conduit will sag about 1/4 to 1/2 inch just under its own weight and thats before you even stretch material over it. 10 feet is further than you think.


If you ever look at the pipes hanging on the ceiling of a basement they are generally fastened at 4 to 5 foot increments or less because thats about all you can get out of them before they sag.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

All you have to do is re-arrange the tub with the toilet which should be no problem at all since the house is not built.
This is a cookie-cutter tract home. We finalized the plan 9 months ago. Any changes at this point would literally cost more than the whole theater, plus the cost of the new material, with no credit for the old hardware. Literally!

Quote:

And just what speakers will you be using, Clarence? These need to be taken into consideration...
I don't even pretend to be an audiophile...
post #63 : My fronts are only 8" Infinity 82s, probably top mounted. Center and surrounds (plus the unused fronts that were replaced with the Infinitys) are small JBLs that came with a JBL DCR600-II HTIB system. Probably meager to most, but I'm very happy with it.


Remember, that summarizes my whole frugal approach to this HT... meager, but happy. I don't want to do it half-assed crappy, but I have the rest of this house to pay for, too. Bang for the buck. Oh, and did I mention bang for the buck?! 

Quote:

A 10' conduit will sag about 1/4 to 1/2 inch just under its own weight and thats before you even stretch material over it.
Yeah, I guess you're right. I was thinking that the top could be supported every couple of feet on the ceiling, and the sides would only be 6' or so without fighting gravity droop. How much tension does it take to tighten a screen? I wouldn't think more than a couple of pounds.


Would the iron pipe be better? The 10' lengths didn't seem to flex much at all. Or should I look for Aluminum square tubing (HD didn't have 10' lengths of Aluminum)?


-Clarence


----------



## dokworm

How about a batpole down into the room...


----------



## Clarence

I thought of that, but I wouldn't be able to keep my 5 and 8 year old boys and their friends out of there. 


But stay tuned... I'm drafting up 3 secret doors under the stairs and through the bathroom... seriously


EDIT: Nope. Didn't work...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht20.gif


----------



## RVonse

Quote:

_Originally posted by dokworm_
*How about a batpole down into the room...*
Or perhaps just a trap door with a rope ladder or folding stairs down. For that matter, the stairs could be permanently mounted under the trap door. Mount a flush coke machine style lock on the trap door for safety with the kids. Put the same floor covering on the door as the rest of the floor to "blend it in".


----------



## blafarm

Not much I can add here except that if you want rigidity - don't use pipe. It will bend and warp. The strongest shape in nature is the triangle, and failing that, right angles Rule; hence the use of "I" beams wherever structural integrity is paramount.


For a very heavy load, I would suggest a lightweight 1" aluminum "I" beam profile from any of a number of suppliers. If your bearing weight is much lighter, which I assume it is, you can use a channel profile or even a 1" or 2" aluminum right angle profile, which is readily available in the hardware departments of any Lowes or Home Depot.


I have bolted lightweight right angle aluminum from Home Depot into square frames for a number of applications with great success. As you are probably adverse to cross members, I would just suggest a short cross bracket or mending plate in each corner to act as a stiffener.


Here is a quick overview of some of the readily available profiles:

http://doityourself.com/store/aluminumshapes.htm 


Good Luck


----------



## Marshall F

Clarence, it's looking pretty good! I haven't checked on Phil's project - hope that's continuing.


Two questions -- Your screen will be flexible. Are you concerned about shaking from A/C Vents, or are they no where near your screen?


Also, It's hard to determine the depth from your picture, and therefore, the closeness of the mirror to the stairs, but would kids thundering down the stairs rattle the mirror? Same with sub placement. Maybe clammer and others who are using RP could comment.


Would a laser pointer help in figuring out your angles of mirrors, projector, from your sweet spot seat?


Good stuff!


Marshall


----------



## Clarence

Hi Marshall-


The mirror and projector will be in a heavy metal frame, contacting only the concrete slab. I don't think even my kids can shake that (much less, my subwoofer).


I don't know about HVAC yet. Even unfinished basements here stay fairly temperate during all seasons. But I guess I should check out the model home to see how hard it'll be to tap into a duct.


I don't know how much impact the ventilation and opening/closing doors will have on the flexible screen. I think Terry mentioned that in another RP thread. I'm going to tension the screen with grommets and bungees, and I don't know what else could/should be done.


Phil tried painting his glass this week and it flopped.  (I still recommend an RP-vinyl sheet sandwiched between 2 sheets of tempered glass)


blafarm: I'll look for 10' lengths of aluminum i-beam. Thanks.


-Clarence


----------



## DHunt

Hey Clarence,


I don't know if this has been mentioned yet or not, but I did some playing around with my old RPTV before going with a front projector and I found that depending on how you have your projector/mirror/screen setup, you could get some ghosting on the bottom of your screen.


Most likely this won't occur with your setup, but its worth mentioning any ways, just in case. This ghosting applied to my RPTV, but could also be applicable to a rear projection setup using a front projector and a mirror if setup incorrectly.


With a RPTV, the projection is positioned to project at a pretty steep angle. The mirror of course reflects the image on to the screen. In my RPTV, I replaced the lenticular screen with a diffusion screen. This gave me a much bigger view cone, but also caused a problem with Ghosting. What was happening is that the top 2" of my screen would be caught by the bottom 2" of the mirror and be reflected right back at the bottom of the screen, giving a fuzzy ghost image 4" in height from the bottom of the screen. With the old Lenticular screen, it prevented this low level of light to be visible, but with a change to a diffusion screen, it was very visible during dark scenes with bright lights near the top of the screen. During credit scrolling it was almost unbearable (thank goodness the movie had ended) as you could see giant sentences scrolling near the bottom 4" of the screen.


When you mount all of your equipment, keep in consideration of what angle the top of your screen makes with the bottom of the mirror. Make sure it does not end up reflecting a ghost image back on to the bottom of your screen.


Darren


----------



## noah katz

"Not much I can add here except that if you want rigidity - don't use pipe. It will bend and warp. The strongest shape in nature is the triangle, and failing that, right angles Rule; hence the use of "I" beams wherever structural integrity is paramount."


For bending stiffness, triangles have less stiffness per section height and per weight than I or channel beams, which are the most efficient because they concentrate material thickness at the farthest points from the centerline, which gives that material more "leverage" than if if were more evnly distributed.


The only issue with cannel vs. I section is that the former's not being horizontally symmetric makes it want to flop over when heavily loaded if not stabilized.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

"Not much I can add here except that if you want rigidity - don't use pipe. It will bend and warp. The strongest shape in nature is the triangle, and failing that, right angles Rule; hence the use of "I" beams wherever structural integrity is paramount."


For bending stiffness, triangles have less stiffness per section height and per weight than I or channel beams, which are the most efficient because they concentrate material thickness at the farthest points from the centerline, which gives that material more "leverage" than if if were more evnly distributed.


The only issue with cannel vs. I section is that the former's not being horizontally symmetric makes it want to flop over when heavily loaded if not stabilized.

Yecch, reminds me too much of my mechanical engineeering Statics classes from 20 years ago.


Does anybody have a good source of any local/shippable affordable 10' lengths of i-beam, triangular, or square tubing that I can build a frame perimeter with?


I found a lot of stuff on the web, but it looks like everything gets cut down to 6' for shipping. And the stuff was $1-$3/foot (not too bad... I'd need 9.5'+7.125'+9.5'+7.125' = 33.25').


Or should I just use that cast iron threaded pipe from Home Depot?

Or wood?

Remember, no rear cross bracing allowable since this is RP.


Thanks,

Clarence


Most recent plan:


version 19:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht19-rp.gif 

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/screen-hinge.gif 

First mirror/RP test setup and preliminary screenshots


----------



## aspec2

Clarence


There is some aluminum that they use at work for making frames for hanging devices. It is pretty expensive. You can get it in 20 foot lengths and in assorted sizes from 1.5 square to 4 inches square. When I get to work, I will find out what it costs and what it is called. I have enough to build the frame on my next DIY. I was fortunate to get the long pieces (1.5x2.5 by 12 feet )for nothing because it was slightly damaged. Two six footers (1.5x1.5) plus fittings, screws, and etc. cost me $40.00. I have more than enough of the brackets and screws so if you decide to go this way, I can send them to you. The aluminum rail is like Unistrut in that the nuts slide in slots along the length of the rail. There is an assortment of brackets that assist in mountings.


Walt


----------



## Clarence

Thanks Walt.


If you need instructions on how to "slightly damage" some more long pieces, I can describe that process 


You're using 1.5x2.5 on the top/bottom, but 1.5x1.5 on the sides?

How are the corners fastened?

When you build it, I'd love to see pictures, especially of the corners.

I'd also like to know how sturdy it seems without cross bracing.


Thanks!

Clarence


----------



## Joshua Snyder

I still recommend trolling the Flebay for a 7x10 Fasfold with RP mat. Light, rigid and no fiddle bungie cords.


BTW, the frame on a fastfold is 1.25" square aluminum, in 2 to 4 foot sections all with permanent hinges attached (no fitting slot a into groove b). and it all fits into a 8"x10"x4' long box


Josh


----------



## aspec2

Clarence


You are correct. I made a mistake. The long pieces are 1.5X3 inches.


I have not seen the vendor yet. I had a friend take some pictures. Unfortunately we could not unload his camera so I won't get the pictures until tonight.


Mark, Mark the hair lipped dog just walked in. Here's the info.


Frame World is the manufacturer. I am told Barrington Automation is the supplier.


Mark is on the phone looking for a friendly (damaged) deal.



The corners are attached with angle brackets. You can get one hole or multiple hole brackets. The are made of cast aluminum.


I am going to use the 2 hole bracket. Attach the upright with the brackets on one side of the screen. Put the other side on with one screw in each bracket at the top and bottom. Attach the screen a little short and then lever the bracket into position and install the rest of the screws. This will stretch the screen. I don't know if this is clear or not. I will do a sketch when I post the pictures.


Sorry. No friendly deal. I will keep watching though.


Walt


----------



## Clarence

 http://frame-world.com/applications/displays.htm 
http://frame-world.com/catalog.htm 

That stuff looks 4x stronger than i-beam!


----------



## Clarence

Cool... their online catalog has 3D models of every part.


I just built my screen in CAD!


-Clarence


----------



## aspec2

Clarence


I guess this means you don't need the pictures of the frame.


Walt


----------



## Clarence

If you've built a real one, I'd still love to see it. Also a real world jiggle test. I guess I could run my CAD assembly through FEA... 


Their catalog has hinges, handles, everything! (except prices  )


----------



## aspec2

I haven't built it yet. The stuff has been laying in my basement for months. It's a long story. Give me a parts list and I will get you a price the next time I see Mark, Mark. Who knows what can happen.


From what I have read here, you probably don't need big stuff with the material you are using. I got the 3 inch because I intend to stretch Parkland over it with some spring loaded devices to compensate for the stretching/shrinking it does. Maybe just some jack screws for adjustment. Still don' t have a firm plan.


Walt


----------



## Clarence

Thanks to Tedd for the inspiration for this... he looked at the adjoining bathroom and found a few feet that I can use for for an entryway...


Talk about doing a 180!

Here's version #22:

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht22.gif 


Note I can easily go to 10' wide! I'll have to re-calculate the mirror geometry to see if the RP room is deep enough (I also have a 2nd mirror if necessary).


And no funky screen hinge is needed to access behind the screen.

Plus I get a HTPC/tinkering room.


-Clarence


----------



## aspec2

Hey Clarence


How about an anamorphic mirror. I am so intrigued by this and that forum, I might try some prisms inside the lenses. Need some more research.


Now where did I put that Ampro light valve with all those prisms????


Walt


I see you don't need the aluminum.


----------



## [email protected]

With some one-way glass in that bathroom, you could sit in the bath & see the screen


----------



## Clarence

>> I see you don't need the aluminum


Hi Walt... no aluminum frame in this design, but there are probably 78 more versions before I get to pick up a hammer...


>> you could sit in the bath & see the screen


I'll just put one of my other projectors in the bathroom.

Isn't Parklands Plastic screen intended for wet surfaces?


----------



## CFC

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*Thanks to Tedd for the inspiration for this... he looked at the adjoining bathroom and found a few feet that I can use for for an entryway...


Talk about doing a 180!

Here's version #22:

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht22.gif 


Note I can easily go to 10' wide! I'll have to re-calculate the mirror geometry to see if the RP room is deep enough (I also have a 2nd mirror if necessary).


And no funky screen hinge is needed to access behind the screen.

Plus I get a HTPC/tinkering room.


-Clarence*
That is a nice workaround to get to the bigger screen. It's amazing how simple solutions can stare you in the face.

The RP room should definitely be plenty deep. You can use at least 9' for it; with a mirror setup you'll get at least 18' of throw.

Keep 'em coming man,


CFC


----------



## Phil Smith

That's a good looking plan!


Can you get by with a 1/2 bath? The toilet's on one end wall, and the sink is on the opposite end wall. The door is in the middle of the side wall. The resulting bathroom would be the same width as your staircase, which would square up the room and add room to the seating area. I know it's doable because I have a 1/2 bath exactly like described. A pedestal sink helps it appear to be bigger than it really is.


Also, doors normally open into a room. If you make both doors swing in the same direction you could use larger 2'8" doors, which are the normal size for entry in a room. Any smaller and you might have trouble getting stuff in and out of the room. For an HT, 3'0" doors might be a better choice. This is assuming you really need 2 doors. Maybe one on the outside wall opening into the the HT room would be enough, unless you need them for sound proofing reasons.


----------



## Phil Smith

"Note I can easily go to 10' wide!"


You know Clarence, you often hear of people going to smaller screens, but I don't know if I've ever heard of anyone going larger. There are HUGE plus' to smaller screens that you've yet to experience. I personally thought the 9' screen was something you would eventually be glad you did.


----------



## plain fan

Clarence,

From your drawing you might consider closing off the one area next to your computer room on the right side of the screen (facing the screen).


Also you might want to make sure that there is plenty of insulation/sound deadening along the dual bathroom/theater wall. The sound of running water (flushed toilet) is very annoying and would distract from the theater experience.


----------



## mickeymoose2000

Clarence,


I'm coming into this discussion late, and haven't read the whole thing yet....

but I was looking at he staircase right outside the theater entrance.


If it is too scale, it appears to have 6 steps up to a 48" high landing.

where does it go from there?...and will this be a traffic issue?


You have the projector room door at the foot of the stairs and a theater entrance behind the landing. As far as I can tell.... the only direction for the upper half of the staircase to go ..... is north ( as the picture is oriented) and I'm guessing thats a hallway.


I could be wrong, but it may be a traffic pattern issue!


mike


----------



## Clarence

OK, I just got back from the construction site during lunch...


This week we got HVAC ducting, basement framing, plumbing, and bathtubs.


I double checked some measurements. A lot easier now that the basement is framed! Making the entryway from the extra space in the bathroom will work perfectly! I removed one of the doors and widened the main entry to 32". There is even another ~18" of full height space I could tap into under the stairs if I need to, but note the red dot I added to indicate a steel support column in the wall.


Here's version 23:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht23.gif 


Mike, the stairs continue straight up to the main level of the house. No landing, no turns. Sorry, I just didn't draw all the steps.


I suspect I'll soundproof the walls at the top of the drawing (by bath and stairs). With 2 boys and their friends, someone is always running to the bathroom and flushing, so I appreciate that advice. All other walls are dirt on the other side. (Phil, the floorplan is fixed, so I can't change the bathroom plumbing design to a half bath at this point).


There is a HVAC duct running between the two rows of seats, but it is completely within the joists. Should be ideal to tap into for a vent above the audience.


There is a steel beam under the joists in the drawn wall between my HTPC and the Projection Room. I only show that wall because I plan on making a black room for behind the screen.


I might move the HTPC recessed into the half-height space under the stairs. Or maybe use that space as a subwoofer infinite baffle?


-Clarence


----------



## Joshua Snyder

Ok Clarence....


Sign me up for movie night....


Now how much drywall do I have to hang ? 


have you taken a look at dropping some of your 3 row seating arrangements in the new plan? 12ft from the screen seems way back for me 


Josh


----------



## Clarence

Everyone that knows the secret AVS door-knock gets a free pass to a show. But this is a good time to re-mention my friendly barter offer for any local drywaller who wants a free ECP this summer... PM me. 


I keep bouncing between 2 and 3 rows...


I've got 3 rows assembled in our basement now. I'll set them up tonight to try 4' and 4'6" between rows. I remember measuring quickly several weeks ago and 4' seemed plenty roomy.


If I can get by with 3.5', I'll do 3 rows... 10', 13.5', 17'.

Especially since my main concern with the early 3rd row was the second riser. But now that I don't have to worry about the ceiling mounted projector being in the way, I'll revisit that soon...


I've watched my current 12'w screen from 12' back (1:1) and it's watchable, but a little too close for me. I think Art's new front row is at 11' for 11'w. My boys and their friends always pick the front row, though, so since I have the extra seats, I might as well use them...

Quote:

I personally thought the 9' screen was something you would eventually be glad you did.
Phil, I'm torn on this. I still love my 12'x8' megascreen. When I tested a 4x8 sheet of Formica months ago, I just recall thinking, how could anybody use a tiny screen like that? Mathematically, it's 1/3rd the area, but it definitely wasn't 3x brighter or clearer. When I set up my current RP test to 10', thinking at the time I'd have to go even smaller to 9', I felt uneasily constrained. I can't justify it. It's just enjoyable. Sure, it's foolish. It's childish. It slaps optimal PQ in the face. But I enjoy 10'+ screens.

Quote:

The RP room should definitely be plenty deep. You can use at least 9' for it; with a mirror setup you'll get at least 18' of throw.
CFC, remember to subtract about 3' from D1 to account for the depth of the projector. Plus my existing mirror is only so big, so unless I buy a bigger mirror (ha! not likely), I definitely need to plan and test my throwcone-folding before I build a room around it. That's another reason I don't show the 3rd row yet... I fear I may need to add another foot to the RP room, which will take a foot away from the screen_width to seating_distance ratio.


-Clarence


----------



## Joshua Snyder

Ok.... Given your stock of projectors... and you said you have 2 boys?


Heres a modification of your plan... keeps the same movie watching mode... but adds game play mode and a bigger display in the HTPC tinkering room. (AKA, the Clarence Theater "B" house)



Use your 3000 and 4000 ECP seres projectors fireing at the RP in a 4:3 aspect ratio to run Multi sporting event video and networked X-Box and PS2(3) game play.... I Know about the problems with burn in playing games... but what the heck you picked them up for $1.65 each, Right?


Then in the Back "Office" / "B" house... put the 1271 on the celling pushing it as far back as you can, shooting it onto a blank wall, and since the "Wall" between the "Office" and the RP Room has not been built, you can in fact push it all the way into the RP Aria.


----------



## noah katz

Clarence,


"Plus my existing mirror is only so big"


You could make one big mirror by butting two smaller ones together; it does mean making a new frame for them though. I may do this myself.


Is your screen the Datex 1.8 gain material? That's the only flexible RP material I came across on their web site.


Didy ou notice any nonuniformity, like lines or splotchiness, in the image when you tried it out?


Thanks


----------



## Clarence

Ha! A dual display gaming stack! My boys are getting a pre-finished playroom that makes my HT look like a walk-in closet! (the large room shown in post #10 ).


I mentioned the same thing about setting up a PJ in my tinker room (I'll have a new office upstairs, too). My wife scrunched her eyebrows and reminded me that I promised I'm only keeping two... the Marquee and my newest 1271.


That means an ECP (3101 and a 4101, both with beautiful tubes) can be allocated for construction barter. And my brother-in-law and my old college roommate can fight over the other one.


Which leaves me with trying to figure out where to use PJ #2.... tinker room, boy's playroom (lots of windows), master bedroom, RP in main den? But that can wait until I build this first phase of the multi-plex.


Noah, it is the Datex, but it doesn't say what gain. I didn't notice any nonuniformity. I was looking for it. And I was looking for hotspotting, too. Off axis viewing seemed fine, even at 60 degrees. Haven't seen any ambient lighting benefits yet, but that's because it's just hanging open in the middle of my unfinished basement.


-Clarence


----------



## doubleJ

marcorsyscom...

I'm glad you didn't decide on a 9' screen or (eek) smaller. I'd really hate to outpace the guy that turned me on to the big boys.

^O^

JJ


----------



## VideoGrabber

The two things I like about the new arrangement are a more comfortable and attractive entry into the theatre, and a front row at 1.2x. IMO, 1.0x is way too close for anything other than HiDef sources. 1.2x is workable on clean 2.35 AR DVD material.


> I might move the HTPC recessed into the half-height space under the stairs.


----------



## Clarence

Yep, the more I look at it, then more I like this plan, too.


I'm going to sleep on it before I make any more changes.


I was going to try a 3rd row, but then I'd need to account for a side aisle to get to the back rows, and the front row would be too close, and I would feel constrained against making the mirror room deeper if needed.

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht23.gif 


I think I'll keep the HTPC and DVDs in the 9'4"x7'8" tinker room. With the stereo equipment. I guess I need to look at remote options... the Marquee remote sensor is easy to remount. I want to try wireless mouse/keyboard. I've got a remote for my FusionHDTV2 and AIW too. And the Dish. Plus remote light dimmers...


-Clarence


----------



## Tedd

One major advantage of doing a larger screen is Clarence could "mask it down" easier then making the screen size larger at a later date.


I also am eyeing that 9' 4" wall in the small adjoining room as a great wall for adding wall to wall shelving, floor to ceiling for the media collection.


The subwoofer/subwoofers could easily go in the projection room also. Maybe some nice Sonotube DIY subwoofers?? They'd certainly fit in with the high impact/low cost "theme"....


One other thought is that if doing a third row of seating, why not do the second and third row with different leg room amounts? You could "steal" a few inches from the last row and put them in the middle row. Unless all your friends are as tall as yourself. Another option is to do two rows of seating and buy some bean bag chairs for the boys and their friends. They could reside in their playroom and be brought into the theater when needed...


The stereo gear could go in under the stairs facing into the room, but I'd also consider putting the rack in the entry "hallway" using the under stair area (handy but not visually distracting) and also in the equipment room with an infrared repeater system with the ir receiver located front and center, below the screen. With an ir repeater system, the electronics could be placed anywhere. Even outside the room, or right beside the htpc in the equipment room.


A friend and I have used the Airboard's ir receiver with an infrared repeater system and currently with a Streamzap usb ir receiver (H3D II based htpc). You really should look into an ir repeater system as it can send signals to all your mentioned gear, including lighting.


----------



## Phil Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*Phil, I'm torn on this. I still love my 12'x8' megascreen. When I tested a 4x8 sheet of Formica months ago, I just recall thinking, how could anybody use a tiny screen like that? Mathematically, it's 1/3rd the area, but it definitely wasn't 3x brighter or clearer. When I set up my current RP test to 10', thinking at the time I'd have to go even smaller to 9', I felt uneasily constrained. I can't justify it. It's just enjoyable. Sure, it's foolish. It's childish. It slaps optimal PQ in the face. But I enjoy 10'+ screens.*
Once you've watched a smaller screen for a while, a bigger screen looks soft and flat, for lack of better terms. But, I guess a big picture is really enjoyable and is more than worth the trade off for some people--I don't know, maybe a lot of people. You're one of those people.


I really don't have a problem, and never have had a problem with anyone's big picture preference. To each his own. I don't know why I posted that earlier. Never mind.


----------



## Clarence

Well, PJ #2 won't be 10'+. My other keeper, besides my trusty primary Marquee 8000, will be the VPH1271. Which brings up a good question...


Since my Marquee is still ceiling mounted, I'm using that 1271 in my preliminary mirror RP testing. It's throwing a great picture. It only takes 2 nudges to converge the R and B crosshair and it looks great! Even better now than the pictures I took the first night , because those were s-video, now I have RGBHV input.


So if I end up having a 10' screen in our theater, and anywhere from a 6' to 8' wide setup for my 2nd projector... Which projector would be better where?


The tubes are beautiful both machines:

The 1271 has 108(!) hours on the chassis and tubes.

The M8000 has 25000+(!) hours on the chassis, but no telling how many on the tubes. No visible wear. Let's say 1000 hours.


Would the EM be better served on a smaller, sharper screen, or would it be more beneficial on the megascreen?


The Sony is rated at 650 peak lumens vs 1000 for the Marquee.

But would the extra lumens be better used to throw a bigger screen, or more beneficial in a room without complete light control?


Both sources and inputs would be similar...

Maybe PJ #2 would be used more for TV/HDTV if in a bedroom or family room.


I'm more likely to get the component IFB for the Sony, instead of a transcoder for the Marquee. So if my Dish or Cable has HD, that might be a consideration.


Maybe I need to drag my Sony under my Marquee and have a mini shoot-out this weekend to see if it's even up to the task. Although I'm already loving the picture it's throwing on this RP material at 9' wide. If the Marquee can do it a notch better... wooo-doggies!


I love this hobby!


-Clarence


----------



## RVonse

Clarence, I think this latest new plan is great. Much better than before, it solves a lot of problems too!


Very practical, yet a very confortable theater like setting. I like the 2 rows of seats because it keeps it simple. Since you no longer have to worry about the projector dangling from the ceiling, there is nothing to prevent you from making sure the rear platform has substantual height. I would make it a point to get it real high since you are not limited even if it means an extra step up.


----------



## ChrisH

Clarence -


Bob's right, your latest plan looks very good.


Seems obvious to me, but for RP...especially with a large screen, the more lumens the better. Also, ES focus would be the way to go with a small screen. ES focus on a large RP with only 650 lumens is gonna be a big, dull, fuzzy image.


- Chris


ps - check yer email.


----------



## Clarence

Hi Chris-


(Chris was the local source for my RP mirrors. Thanks again.)


Got your e-mail. That's a good reminder too for having another area meeting.


I created a new thread/invitation:
*VA/MD/DC "CRT Meet & Geek" at Clarence's: Sat, May 1st* 


See you there!


-Clarence


----------



## genmax

Count me in!! I should be done with the current round of construction projects by then.


Clarence are you getting any sleep?


----------



## Phil Smith

Clarence,


I agree with Chris. Use your 8000 for the big screen. Hell, as often as you find deals on PJs, it's not going to be long before you have a pair of G90s and you won't any which-to-use-where decisions to make.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by genmax_
*Count me in!! I should be done with the current round of construction projects by then.


Clarence are you getting any sleep?*
Glad you can make it next Saturday. If you want to come a little early to recall your old VPH magic, I'm sure my 1271 would appreciate more than the 3 minute focus/converge that I've given it.


>> sleep?


I'm real strict about sleeping (or just lying in bed) from at least 2am-6am whether I'm tired or not


----------



## Clarence

From Post #198 :

Quote:

_Originally posted by madclammer_

I have a working 0 degree 87" wide RP 9501 set up !It fits my 14'/13' room perfectly ! Screen material was $135 plus shipping. Pq is every bit as good as it was FP with better brightness no pj noise and the ability to watch with some light ! Happy as a clam ! Thanks Clarence, Jeff and everyone else !
Hey clammer-


Can you do a simple test for me?


Hold up a sheet of white paper to the back of your screen.

When I do this, the paper is (~20%) brighter than my RP material. I don't know whether this is obvious (because, duh, it's grey vinyl) or shocking (because I thought the Da-Lite RP was 1.5 or 1.8 gain).

What company did you buy your material from?

What was it's rated gain?


Other misc RP notes:


After a week of freely hanging (not under tension), the wrinkles weren't going anywhere. Maybe only 10% reduced. Last night I tried a hairdryer. Did a 2'x2' section for about 15 minutes. Reduced wrinkles maybe another 10%. So today I laid a huge tarp in our backyard, laid the screen on top of the tarp, and tensioned each of the corners with screwdrivers (like tent stakes). Ta-da... after a couple of hours in the sun, I'd say 90% of the wrinkles are gone (only the straight fold lines are slightly visible now).


I still really like the resulting image.


Now that the wrinkles are gone I can be more critical of the image. I did a view cone test and even at 85 degrees to either side, the image is bright and very watchable. I don't notice an increasing brightness as I approach center axis (which is what inspired me to do the paper test and got me thinking that I'm at 1.0 gain or less).


And I can see a slightly brighter spot (between me and the projector) as I slowly walk around. I won't call it "hotspotting"... maybe "warm spotting" would seem more appropriate. You won't notice it when standing still, or with a mixed scene, but when you're walking in an arc around the screen or there's a solid field of color, you can see it if you look for it. Gee, thanks Phil for teaching me how to notice this weakness 


-Clarence


----------



## madclammer

sorry ive been busy landscaping. Gerriots material. 1.1 gain. i notice it is %20 brighter on the viewing side. I really cant say enough about how pleased i am with the PQ for only $135. I cant wait to spend a couple G's on a rigid rp this summer. My only mistake setting up was to build the crt table the wrong height for 0 degrees(having framed the screen wall first)

I am using black sheets to close off the projection room and i swear to you this half assed set up handles light better than my 36" toshiba direct view tv!


----------



## Clarence

Thanks clammer.


I agree, my test setup is half-assed too, but even with the flash, tonight's picture came out halfway decent. You can see some ripples where I tried to tack the top but left the sides and bottom hanging freely.


I might try to take a front-side vs back-side shot with the same exposure settings.


-Clarence


----------



## madclammer

The only weakness of my screen is that it is very thin. not kid proof at all. it came on a roll so no wrinkles.


----------



## Clarence

I'm actually not as concerned as much about kidproof as I thought I would be (my boys are 5 and 8), because my screen seems as durable as a shower curtain.


It's better than having to worry about a $200 or $600+ pro screen. And I think I'm still more worried about my 54" RPTV's screen upstairs than I am about this material.


----------



## madclammer

I have had 2 28"ers die by kid in the last month (1.bed room, 4yr old attempting game boy transplant 2. me drunk/ sleepwalking.)

Its the 2 yr old i worry about Elvising the gerriots.


----------



## madclammer

Its nice to be able to see your keyboard and still have a great picture. Thinking about MP mods for the pj now.


----------



## Phil Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*And I can see a slightly brighter spot (between me and the projector) as I slowly walk around. I won't call it "hotspotting"... maybe "warm spotting" would seem more appropriate. You won't notice it when standing still, or with a mixed scene, but when you're walking in an arc around the screen or there's a solid field of color, you can see it if you look for it. Gee, thanks Phil for teaching me how to notice this weakness *
Clarence,


Well I couldn't see it either until I saw a really severe example of it with my sandblasted screen. As long as it's ruined for me, I thought I might as well ruin it for you too. 


Although I'm still really worried about spending a lot of money on a screen and it not performing well, I'm about ready to pull the trigger on a screen anyway. I've got to something. I know I have some cheaper options, but I really like 1/2" glass a lot. Before I do order one, I have a couple of questions for you and mad.


1) Can you pause on a scene that has a small area that's suppose to be black, and hold something black next to it and compare? The reason I ask this is light scatter in my garage is killing my blacks. Black is dark gray at best, and this is since I painted the screen with gray paint. The white shower curtain, which reflected a LOT of light back into the garage, was REALLY bad about this. Black was at best light gray. I'll eventually do some things to help control light scatter, but I can't paint my garage black, so there's only so much I can do.


2) I CAN significantly minimize the effects of light scatter by going with a charcoal screen, which will also make for much better day time viewing. Right now, even with medium gray, it looks pretty bad during the day. The problem I might run into is the picture not being bright enough, even at night. MAYBE I can get around that by going with 1.5 gain, but then I may have hot spot problems. To the question: If it's not too much trouble, can you guys take a photo of your screen? It seems your screens are working pretty well, and I'd like to get an idea of what shade of gray they are.


----------



## Clarence

I moved the pictures to your thread .


I couldn't stand looking at the Hefty Bag ECP screenshots 


-Clarence


----------



## noah katz

Clarence,


Thanks for the info on the Datex. Is there any more where you got yours?


"Hold up a sheet of white paper to the back of your screen.

When I do this, the paper is (~20%) brighter than my RP material. "


What are you trying to learn by doing this? This test may be misleading, because the light you see has passed through the screen twice.


This is how RP gets one of its primary advantages over FP.


For FP, a given amount of gray tinting improves blacks but not CR, because whites have been cut as much as blacks.


With RP, tinting improves CR because the whites are cut only once on transmission through the screen, but reflected light is absorbed twice, once on its way into the screen and once on its way back through the screen to the room (assuming the reflection is from the diffusion material and the latter is on the back surface of the screen).


madclammer,


How is the uniformity of your screen? Are there any lines, pattern, or other irreguklarities in the image?


Thanks


----------



## Phil Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*I moved the pictures to your thread .


I couldn't stand looking at the Hefty Bag ECP screenshots 


-Clarence*
I wasn't trying to hijack your thread. I just had a few questions for you and mad concerning your screens. I'd actually like my thread to die (which it had until you pulled it back up!). I'm a bit burned out on talking about my project. Other than a few questions about buying a screen, I'd rather talk about something else.


----------



## Clarence

Oops, sorry for bringing up your old thread, but be warned... a thread like that won't ever die. I suspect every 6 months someone will search for "rear projection" and it'll pop up, and they'll ask you how your sandblasted painted screen turned out.


Then again, it seems like only 17 of us ever use Search, so maybe it would've died.


-Clarence


----------



## Phil Smith

I should have included a smiley face. It's not a big deal if it "lives" again, and you're right, every so often someone will find it and bring it back to life. Your thread as well. But mines disappearing, so I'm not going to post to it and pull it back up. 


Thanks Clarence and everyone else for the help! I think I'll order a Vutec in charcoal with 1.5 gain, and cross my fingers that it will be bright enough and won't hot spot.


----------



## Clarence

Let us know how the Vutec turns out.


I think screens are even tougher to buy sight unseen than projectors!


After noticing the "warmspotting" on my Da-Lite, I'm still trying to decide if I should buy and test the Dazian and/or Gerriets Optitrans . Even my "cheap" options get expensive ($93+$165+200...) but there's just not a good resource comparing these different RP materials.


I'm considering buying/testing a second screen and choosing the best for my new HT. The second place finisher would be used for my 2nd CRT (the Sony VPH1271). There are 3 candidate RP locations in the other areas of our house. But probably only 72" wide. No mirror.


If it's better than what I've already got (and fairly happy with), then it'd be worth it.


Are there any good "RP Screens showrooms" in the US? It'd be cheaper to fly cross-country (I love frequent flyer tickets) than to keep taking stabs in the dark.


I applaud your innovations in RP. I'm sorry the sandblasted screen didn't work out, but by documenting your trials, we all learned a lot about what works and what doesn't.


-Clarence


----------



## Phil Smith

Over the last couple of months I've talked to several people from different manufacturers, and have never talked to anyone who struck me as truly knowledgeable on the subject of RP. I just got off the phone with Vutec and talked to a guy that who readily admitted he was not an expert, rather than try to fake it. That was a refreshing change. He did give the extension of another employee that supposedly is knowledgeable about RP that I'm going to call tomorrow.


My point is Clarence, I'm almost convinced getting accurate info on this subject is nearly impossible. I would completely SHOCKED if you found a RP showroom anywhere on the face of the earth. I made a comment to the Vutec guy that it seems most RP is in commercial applications where video quality was not a big issue. He replied that they've sold tons of acrylic screens for HT use. I'd like to know where all these people are! Our threads have only turned up a handful of RP owners. As far as I can tell, our threads constitutes the vast majority of end-user research on this subject.


----------



## noah katz

Phil,


Our problem is that RP is a tiny percentage of the not to big to beginwith FP market.


"He replied that they've sold tons of acrylic screens for HT use. I'd like to know where all these people are!"


Me too! Perhaps he would be willing to see if there are any near you, and ask the customer if they'd mind your being given their contact info.


----------



## CMRA

"It's better than having to worry about a $200 or $600+ pro screen. "


Clarence, your'e the only person on AVS who could post such a statement and be credible. I did a RP screen price search and $1200 was the starting point.


Best wishes when you make the plunge. Clarence always gets his price.

Have you determined which screen will be final one?


----------



## Clarence

Nah, this flexible RP stuff is not terribly expensive (the fixed $creen$ and the other option$ that Phil i$ looking at are a much different $tory).


86" x 9' of Dazian is $165.


Raw material price for an 84" wide x 120" piece of Gerriets Optitrans is $347.90


Again, more than I've spent on most of my projectors, but the cost of a good screen is relatively cheap compared to the overall HT cost.


But I can't afford to try them all. I'm not frustrated by not being able to find it cheaper, I'm frustrated by not being able to find more opinions and RP guidance.


Usually someone in these forums could at least give me a warm fuzzy on a comparison between any HT option. But it seems like I'm on my own in trying to determine if the Gerriets is worth twice as much as the Dazian (and don't even mention the other 12 options I should consider). Or if either of them are better than the $93 fleabay 10' Da-Lite RP material that I'm using now.


-Clarence


----------



## Art Sonneborn

Clarence,

Did you ever look at this site ?

http://www.filmsondisc.com/Features/...review_sys.htm 


Art


----------



## noah katz

Clarence,


How about this strategy: Instead of buying an entire screen's worth of the candidates, get half a screen width by, say, 1 or 2 ft high. I think his would be enough screen area to see what the image will look like and will show light dropoff from center to edge.


----------



## Clarence

Art- Yeah, I'd seen that site and I really like their homemade stacks, but I didn't see too much RP info, other than "we used a Stewart RP screen".


Noah- I guess that would be more affordable. Dazian sells by the yard. I could get 86"x36" for $55. I'm sure I could get a 86"x12" section for $20 if I explained what I was doing. But I figured a full size screen I could not only get a better test, but I could also offer it up to anyone else interested in trying RP. (But gee, I guess it'd be "who wants to buy my RP screen material that came in last place in a side-by-side comparison?"... I'll put it on fleabay, you guys (we) pay some ridiculous prices for some ridiculous stuff  ). Plus, I'm pretty sure my VPH will be set up for RP, too. So the second screen I buy won't go to waste.


I'd love to see Mandarax/Tryg style shootout with RP.


And if any screen vendors are out there, Phil and I have got 12000 hits in the last couple of weeks from people interested in RP... PM me if you want a test review of your product. I'm not looking for free product, just a review loaner.

Dazian 
Gerriets Optitrans 
http://www.rosebrand.com/search/resu...?search=screen 
Rosebrand Grey Projection Screen Material 
Rosebrand Custom Rear Projection Screens without Edge Finishing 
Rosco 
http://www.i-weiss.com/products/curtains/screens/ 
http://www.harknesshall.com/ Screen Surfaces 
Goo 
Da-Lite Rear Projection 

- Da-Lite 

- http://www.cambridgeworld.com/Da-Lit...n_surfaces.htm 

- http://www.shopcousinsvideo.com/dalmatwhitsc.html 

- http://www.av-outlet.com/index.html?...tml&lang=en-us 


Clarence


----------



## CMRA

When I did my RP investigation, I came up with sites like this one. Maybe a little 'marcorsyscom' knowhow is in order to get something like this used? And, cheap.

http://www.mountsandmore.com/asp/sho...asp?catid2=161


----------



## CMRA

Reading the article from Art's link, the big boys used a Stewart Aeroview as their screen of choice. Here's a look-see:

http://catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT...67/T3/1170.htm


----------



## VideoGrabber

Clarence wrote:

> Rosebrand Grey Projection Screen Material


----------



## Clarence

Hi Tim-


Your link took me to 54" Duvetyn, 8 oz., Black


But I've seen their Light Translucent Rear Projection Screen Material listing.


The 110"w material would work fine. 2 yards would give me 72" height, for a


----------



## Phil Smith

Clarence,


I talked to the guy at Vutec again today and he wasn't of much help. I have no idea what direction to go, so I decided to get a soft screen until I get this thing figured out. A soft screen will never work very well for what I'm doing. The shower curtain I used for while always had a bulge in it. Depending on the air temp/pressure difference between my garage and house, it was either an inny or an outy. But for now I just want to watch some video!


I was expecting soft screens to be really cheap, but as you already know, that's not really the case. For my size, Gerriets was $200 plus shipping, Dazian $165 plus shipping (if I'm reading their faxed quote right, shipping runs $50 in a box, $100 in a tube--what a f*****g rip off!). Rose Brand said their gray does suffer from some hot spotting, but for about $60, including shipping, it will do for what I need.


Anyway, I'm the guinea pig for Rose Brand. Not that it helps the cause much, because we already know it's going to hot spot.


----------



## Clarence

If the Rose works, consider sandwiching it between 2 panes of tempered glass to prevent the bulge.


Hard to beat at 15.70/yd if 55"h is enough. Shame that 2x the width costs 6x more. I was tempted to order the same stuff (Rose Grey) because I figure I'll use my VPH1271 as RP PJ#2, and 55"h would be fine.


But I'll wait until you report back. If you don't love the Rose Grey, I'll try the Dazian.


On fleabay (3092569346), Dazian only charges $9 folded, $45 rolled for S/H for 86"x108" RP.


-Clarence


----------



## Phil Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*On fleabay (3092569346), Dazian only charges $9 folded, $45 rolled for S/H for 86"x108" RP.*
I'm looking at my quote again and it states $50 and $100. Maybe the sales guy was trying to make a little more commission on the sale.


----------



## Phil Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*If the Rose works, consider sandwiching it between 2 panes of tempered glass to prevent the bulge.*
I don't know if that is a very good option. I think tempered glass is pretty darn expensive, and it's also green, so I get back to dealing with the green problem, which means REALLY expensive glass. But I think an even bigger problem might be the light having to pass thru 6 surfaces--4 of which are shiny.


But, everything looks good looking through the double pain windows in my house, so maybe it's not that big of deal.


----------



## Clarence

Good point. Sorry. I wonder if it'd be as bad as the double-ghosting from standard mirrors instead of first-surface. You're not running zero optical axis, either, are you? That could eliminate the refraction angle.


----------



## VideoGrabber

Clarence,

> Your link took me to 54" Duvetyn, 8 oz., Black shipping runs $50 in a box, $100 in a tube--what a... rip off


----------



## VideoGrabber

Phil wrote:

> I think an even bigger problem might be the light having to pass thru 6 surfaces


----------



## noah katz

The way I'd do it, and it's looking like I will (but not soon), is bond a flexible screen to a single pane of AR-coated (antireflection) glass.


The glass will be the front surface, and should greatly increase ambient light resistance; regular glass reflects 7% of light vs. well less than 1% for AR-coated.


----------



## blafarm

That's a very interesting thought. The distortion (bowing) of Plexi has always been of concern to me. Do you have a source for chromatically neutral glass that you're considering and which adhesive would you use?


----------



## noah katz

I wasn't going to worry too much about the green tint, as I think it may only cost 10% or so in brightness after calibrating its effect out.


For adhesive I'm going to try a test sample with some clear epoxy resin I have; if that seems not to be so good I'll look into optical adhesives.


Re the AR glass, I haven't priced it but I'm not going for the super optical grade which IIRC has only about .1% reflectivity; I think the architectural grade used in energy efficient windows should be good enough (I think it's more like .5% reflectivity).


I'm hoping I can even get it with a slight neutral gray tint.


----------



## blafarm

Interesting. While I agree that 10% is not that much...it might be significant to someone who has a more challenging ambient light situation (like me).


Is it true that architectural glass is less reflective than optical (.5% vs. 1%)? I would have thought it might be the other way around. Anyway, are you thinking along the lines of purchasing stock coated glass - or having an AR coating applied to something you supply?


I seem to recall Phil Smith referencing expensive "non-green" glass near the begining of his RP thread. I don't know who the supplier was (although it would be interesting to know) but I wonder if that glass could be AR coated at a reasonable price?


Finally, I'm no expert but I've yet to run across an epoxy resin that didn't yellow over time.


Thanks for the info.


----------



## Clarence

Please share any sources for that fancy AR optical glass when you start to build your RP... the stuff I saw was as pricy as first-surface mirrors... $0.25 - $3 per square INCH !


And make sure you find a local source too. It's no fun to find a decent price on a mirror then see the shipping cost doubles the total. Can you imagine how much would shipping would be on 4'x8' glass (or larger)?


I'm struggling with cheap and simple COTS screens and you guys are inventing your own!


----------



## noah katz

blafarm,


"While I agree that 10% is not that much...it might be significant to someone who has a more challenging ambient light situation (like me)."


I doubt 10% is significant in any situation. Brightness is like SPL, our eyes respond logrithmically (sp?). CRT's typically have brightness uniformity of no better than 70% or thereabouts, and it's hardly noticeable.


"Is it true that architectural glass is less reflective than optical (.5% vs. 1%)? I would have thought it might be the other way around. Anyway, are you thinking along the lines of purchasing stock coated glass - or having an AR coating applied to something you supply?"


You're right; .5% is 5X more reflective than .1%.


"I seem to recall Phil Smith referencing expensive "non-green" glass near the begining of his RP thread. I don't know who the supplier was (although it would be interesting to know) but I wonder if that glass could be AR coated at a reasonable price?"


Low iron glass is used for art display and so forth, but I think it's pretty pricey. IIRC a link I saw the other day was 3 or 4 hundred $ for the max size of not big enough, 40' x 60" IIRC.


"Finally, I'm no expert but I've yet to run across an epoxy resin that didn't yellow over time."


OK, thanks for the tip. Is that from UV exposure, or will it do it indoors, too?


Clarence,


Yes, the super performance optical stuff is very expensive, but most ioptics aren't very big, either.


Stuff that's used in vast expanses in buildings can't be too expansive, er, expensive. I hope I'm not mistaken about some of it being low reflectivity as well as low emissivity. I should remember that from my heat transfer class, but I don't, or even whether that question was answered.


What's COTS stand for again?


----------



## blafarm

I'm quite certain that UV accelerates the rate substantially. Don't know about darkened indoor spaces. Found this during a quick search on the web. Not sure it's the right thing for you but it looked interesting

http://www.epoxies.com/tech/10-3713R.pdf 


BTW: Maybe I'm missing something but your original post omitted the "." in .1%


"Re the AR glass, I haven't priced it but I'm not going for the super optical grade which IIRC has only about 1% reflectivity; I think the architectural grade used in energy efficient windows should be good enough (I think it's more like .5% reflectivity)."


----------



## noah katz

"Maybe I'm missing something but your original post omitted the "." in .1% "


Oops, right you are, I edited it.


Thanks for the great link, I bookmarked it.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

What's COTS stand for again?

__________________

Noah
COTS is "Commercial Off The Shelf".. The opposite of custom DIY.


----------



## noah katz

Ah, yes, thanks.


----------



## Phil Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by VideoGrabber_
*If you're just trying to create a pressure-sealed chamber (and not insulate against temperature differentials), a single sheet (rather than sandwiching) may be adequate, if you can pull the soft-screen material taut. It may not even need to be tensioned, if you can get some electrostatic "cling" working for you. 


Also, does it have to be glass? AFAIK, large plexi- panels are lighter, more shock resilient, and have no green cast. I don't know about cost vs. tempered glass.


Put the panel on the garage side, and the soft-screen inside, where its matte surface will avoid creating the reflections that either a glass or plexi surface inevitably would. I can't say whether any of these layered solutions wouldn't suffer from ghosting issues.*
Clarence suggested sandwiching the screen material to assure it laid flat against the glass with zero gap, which would desirable.


The only negatives about acrylic is sound insulation and scratch resistance. Both issues are important to me, so I've opted for glass.


The reflections on the glass I can live with, so for ease of maintenance I prefer the glass to the inside. I haven't noticed any ghosting problems other than when I had a sheet or shower curtain on the back side of the glass.


----------



## Phil Smith

"Low iron glass is used for art display and so forth, but I think it's pretty pricey. IIRC a link I saw the other day was 3 or 4 hundred $ for the max size of not big enough, 40' x 60" IIRC."


Actually it's lead, which is added to standard glass to make it harder. Starfire glass has little or no lead in it and is easier to scratch, although it's still pretty scratch resistant. Mine has been handled and moved around a lot and it has no scratches on it.


I read somewhere that the AR coating also effects the light passing thru it as well as reflected light. It supposedly reduces brightness to some degree. Also the coating is the same stuff that's used on eye glass' and camera lens', so it's delicate and requires special care. And at least from Binswanger Glass , it's expensive. I was quoted over $1,000 for a 1/2" AR glass for my project.


Noah, granted, my test were with a 3/4" piece of glass, but I'd do some testing before I assumed I could dial the green out. When you throttle back on the green, I think it's very possible that have an adverse effect on other parameters, including your gray scale tracking being totally out of whack.


----------



## noah katz

"I read somewhere that the AR coating also effects the light passing thru it as well as reflected light. It supposedly reduces brightness to some degree."


Actually AR coating increases brightness because the light that is not reflected is instead transmitted.


"When you throttle back on the green, I think it's very possible that have an adverse effect on other parameters, including your gray scale tracking being totally out of whack."


I don't think that will be an issue with a digital pj, which is what I'm going to use.


----------



## Clarence

Well, if I had any updates to my HT plan, I'd try to bring this back on topic, but I've looked at my current floor plan each day this week and I'm still happy with it.


I couple of PMs are pessimistic about RP, but after everything else I've tried trying to deal with the ceiling clearance, I'm pressing forward. I've still got a couple of months to fret about the RP material that I'm going to use, but worst case, I stick with the 10' Da-Lite RP I've already got. I will order the $165 dazian and use the best of the two. And maybe I'll splurge and buy the Gerriets Optitrans too and fleabay my least favorite.


No new activities to blog. I'll visit the construction site tomorrow during lunch, but I don't expect too much new... maybe electrical or siding.


I've bookmarked several galleries from the HT Builders forum, including several with the dark red and charcoal grey them I'm envisioning.


Lots of good prosceniums to mimic, too. Although my wife is concerned that a stage will be more of a magnet for kids than a barrier.


Current research includes wood vs steel studs.

Height of riser?


Stay tuned.


-Clarence


----------



## garyfritz

*Lots of good prosceniums to mimic, too. Although my wife is concerned that a stage will be more of a magnet for kids than a barrier.*


Hmmm, maybe some steel spikes and razor wire??


----------



## Clarence

Nah, my kids could find a way to damage that stuff too.


----------



## Clarence

I received the nicest reply from someone who had bought the dazian RP on ebay. He left feedback that said _"Rear projection screen works well! Prompt shipping. Thanks!"_


So I sent him an ebay message and asked him way too many questions...
Quote:

*What projector are you using?*

BenQ 1500 Ansi Lumen - Contrast ratio about 1600:1 I think.

*What is the finished size of your screen?*

86x65 inches

*Does it work well in ambient light?*

Pretty good. The incandescant lamps you see in the picture are about 300W. There are also two in front, not far away.

*Do you notice any hotspotting where the image is brighter in the center, but fades in the far corners?*

None. I would think this would be more of a function of the projector.

*Did you order it folded or rolled? Did the wrinkles fade away?*

Folded. The creases came out as they said they would when tensioned. I would be careful with handling however, as the tightest corners seem to leave a little white spot for awhile. Again, where it is placed now and for its use, I can't see any remnant of creases or folds it. We're using the screen so the stage people can see what's going on. We've used it only one Sunday and are pleased with the results.
But the picture he sent was even better...


High lumen dPJ, but I don't see any hotspotting. I think I'll give it a try, too.


-Clarence


----------



## Phil Smith

That was very nice of that guy, but that photo doesn't really tell you anything about hot spotting. One of the acrylic screen manufacturers for commercial applications recommends placing the screen out of direct line of sight of the PJ. Look at your screen from an angle. There won't be any hot spotting.


----------



## Phil Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by noah katz_
*I don't think that will be an issue with a digital pj, which is what I'm going to use.*
Noah, you're participating in the wrong thread! Recently there were some really nice threads started by some digital to CRT converts. Those are the threads you should be reading.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Phil Smith_
that photo doesn't really tell you anything about hot spotting. One of the acrylic screen manufacturers for commercial applications recommends placing the screen out of direct line of sight of the PJ.
But I moved my head side to side with his jpg and I don't see any dynamic change in bright spots in his screen  (Yeah, I guess it'd be hard for a hotspot to be on the screen if the projector isn't behind it.)


I haven't taken a screenshot in a couple of weeks, so here's the latest...

just the Sony 1271 which I still haven't focused or converged (I'll be using the Marquee in the new HT).


Capt Jack Sparrow has that same sunburn glow, so I guess I need to read up on Sony G2. Some lost detail in the left side of his hat, too (OK, no fair picking on a PJ that hasn't been setup yet)


about 9' wide:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/pirate2.jpg 


and the reference frame from WinDVD:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/pirate1.jpg 


This is the third RP screenshot that fades out in the top left (especially when compared to the frame capture). I'm looking at the screen now... I guess it is a little darker there; but not as bad as depicted. This whole shot came out a little brighter than the real screen.


-Clarence


----------



## garyfritz

The RP screenshot also has an extraneous man in the right side of the frame. 


Clarence, I was also going to point out there's no way you'd notice hotspotting in that hanging-from-the-church-ceiling shot. You're not in the line-of-site of the PJ.


On the other hand, notice how bright and clear the image is from that sharp angle. Granted they're using a light cannon, but obviously the RP screen disperses the light pretty well. Which, I would think, would tend to reduce hotspotting.


Also, if off-axis images look that good, and hotspotting IS a problem, why not view it off-axis? Not viewing from an angle, but *projecting* from an angle with appropriate keystone correction. If you mount your mirror to project at an angle, you should avoid all hotspotting, probably at the cost of some lost brightness.


----------



## Clarence

The hotspotting really isn't as bad as it sounds or as bad as it looks in the screenshot above, which is why I call it "warmspotting". I don't think it's bad enough to have to consider off-axis keystoning light bending.


I pointed it out to my wife and she still couldn't see what I was talking about.


I'll point it out to about 10 people at my "meet and geek" on Saturday and see if they consider it a problem.


Gary, I see that extraneous artifact in my screenshot. Hmm, maybe I need to clean the lens to see what's casting that annoying shadow.


----------



## madclammer

get the optitrans. you seem to be worried about hotspots. Im using a 1200 lumen pj at a 0 degree angle sitting at a 0 degree angle (looking directly at the guns. NO HOTSPOT and the viewing angle and light rejection is the same as a direct view. worth an extra $100 all day.


----------



## Clarence

Clammer, stand in front of the screen, then sidestep two steps to the left, then 4 steps to the right.


Do you notice a change in brightness (


----------



## madclammer

Clarence, NO ! Not even 10 steps to either side will result in 10% loss of brightness. maybe 5 % when viewing from 90 degrees off center. no different than a regular tv ! I have had some time to set up and some tips from bruce and my focus is now top notch ! I am very amazed at the pq again. all i need now is a pc solution to convert 1080i to 1080p. Im so glad for phills thread and yours for getting me going. thank you both. long live CRT projection ! hail to the king !


----------



## Brian Hampton

Clarence,


Forgive me if it's been covered because this thread grew fast and I haven't re-read the whole thing yet but..


Has speaker placement been discussed for your setup?


I read the HT builder forum a bit these days and no one seems to mention speaker placement often unless it's talk about in wall speakers.


Are you doing in wall speakers, wall mount speakers, center above, below or behind screen?


-Brian


----------



## Clarence

Hi Brian-


My speaker placement will be driven by aesthetics instead of audiophile analysis.


They're depicted in the last floor plan:

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht23.gif 




I have Infinity 82's for the fronts (the brown squares in the drawing). And my JBL surround speakers are only like 3"x4" (the tiny black squares in the corner). I'm pretty sure the center will be top mounted (the black rectangle shown in the center of the screen). I toyed around with placing it in under the proscenium (screen stage/riser), but I've got it top mounted now and it seems more appropriate there instead of having to fight it's way off the floor, through the seats and up the risers to the viewers in the second row. The sub is shown as the large black square at the lower left side of the screen.


We went to the construction site yesterday. We got siding last week. Drywall starts tomorrow! Well, drywall for all rooms except my unfinished HT (so if anyone in the area wants one of my ECPs for helping with HT construction, let me know)


-Clarence


----------



## CMRA

I saw your pix post. So, which looks better close up and personal, FP or RP?


----------



## Clarence

Simple question. Complicated answer...


But here's the short answer for anyone that doesn't want to read this entire ramble: I'm going with Rear Projection in my new house.


Too many variables between the two for a direct comparison today, even though they're just a few feet from each other:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/multiplex12.jpg 


Right now the mega-screen front projection with my Marquee 8000 would be chosen as the one that looks best.


But I heard an equal number of people at my "Meet and Geek" this weekend say _"Wow. That big screen looks great. I'm going bigger."_ and _"Wow. That RP looks great. I'm going to have to look into that."_


There are still too many variables to allow a direct comparison. But each one of the differences will only improve what I'm seeing on my RP test rig...


- My Marquee 8000 (1000 peak lumens) is brighter than the 1271 (650 peak lumens) I'm using for these RP tests.


- Zero, yep zero, adjustments for corner focus or key, pin, or bow. Sean owns a 1271 and did some basic VPH configuration for me when he came over for the Meet. He also increased the amount of phosphor I was using. So it looks better now than it did last week.


- No G2 color balance adjustments (yet)


- The bottom of the RP mirror is resting on a 2x4 and the top is angled with a piece of twine. Not a single measurement was made for throw distance or light-bending angles. Adds new meaning to the term "point and shoot". The center of the mirror is not at the same height as the center of the screen... so I'm not getting zero-axis rear projection (yet).


- The Da-Lite RP screen material is hanging loosely from the ceiling joists like a shower curtain, not tensioned (yet) or masked (yet).


- The area behind the RP screen isn't darkened or masked to minimize light back-scatter (yet). My new HT will have a dedicated projector room with flat black walls.


This week I'm going to drag the VPH1271 out from behind the RP screen and set it up directly under my Marquee, pointed at the FP megascreen. Then I'm going to do a direct comparison to see how different 650 vs 1000 lumens looks.


Then next weekend, I'll pull the Marquee off the ceiling and set it up behind the RP screen, point it at the mirror, and start mocking up the new HT layout.


One side note, someone at the Meet said, _that Da-Lite screen doesn't look 10'._ I stepped it off and said "you're right". So we found a tape measurer and the actual RP surface is _only_ 9' 4" wide. So that's either going to be justification for reducing my new HT from 120"w to 112"w, or that's additional justification for me to buy the second RP screen... to get a full 120" (more likely).


So the image quality is already good enough to be implementable. I doubt too many people would turn their nose up at the "2nd place" Armageddon shot above. A better projector and a better screen setup should make it even better.


Add the benefits of:

+ hiding the 130 pound beast

+ eliminating the noise completely

+ eliminating the eye-level bright lights from the tubes when walking towards the seats

+ eliminating the 3-color-shadows cast by my kids and friends dancing in front of the screen

+ hiding the tangle of input wires

+ removing the noggin'-knocking obstruction from the ceiling

+ removing the sight-line obstruction potentially in the way of the rear risers...


As I alluded to in the summary above... no doubt about it... I'm going with Rear Projection in my new house.


-Clarence


----------



## Brian Hampton

Hmmm,


I learned 2 things from the above post...


I should consider RP with my 1271 in my new house which I'll be moving to in August.


I should pick up Amageddon next time I go to the Lebanon Library because they have it and Liv Tyler is cute enough to make the Bruce Willis scenes bearable.



I thought about RP before but discounted it. Now I'm going to consider it again. It's not that I want to have lights on during the film or have a superbowl party it's just... I've seen a few RP installations that seam nice (the apple store in Palo Alto and the Monstshire Museam) and there's extra room in my basement. I really like the idea of 0 degree throw angle and no keystone or pin adjustments.


-Brian


Clarence, Where did you get the screen and how much was it?


=brian


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Clarence, Where did you get the screen and how much was it?
see post #115 (ebay $93) and post #89 (Dazian, Gerriets Optitrans, and other RP sources).


Or better yet, read this 


-Clarence


----------



## Tedd

I think that might just be the first screen shot I've ever seen Clarence post, without Clarence in it....


----------



## Clarence

Hi Tedd-


Ah, I can sense your disappointment...


Actually, I'm in that screenshot, but since my screen is so large, the horses are life-size and I'm posing as one of the jockeys. 


But there are actually a few more screenshots without me if you search hard enough. Like this one in my http://gallery.avsforum.com/showgallery.php?si=&perpage=24&sort=1&cat=500&ppuser=7428394 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/gallery4.gif ...

_Daredevil_ at 172" diagonal:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508...at_14_feet.jpg 


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

Here's a picture of our basement before drywall. The unfinished HT space is behind this bathroom.
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/basement-framed.jpg 


Less important... we got siding on Friday:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/siding.jpg 


Pre-drywall inspection is tomorrow. Settlement is June 15th. That'll be 54 weeks since signing the contract.


-Clarence


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Did you pay >$500 for that house?


----------



## Clarence

More than it's worth. But we sold our previous house for more than it was worth, so it was a wash.


This is out in the boonies but we're still 19' from our neighbors. Northern VA real estate is ridiculous. 


-Clarence


----------



## ChrisWiggles

I did mean >$500.00


.


----------



## RVonse

Clarence,

Regardless of what you had to pay, it looks like you are going to have plenty of room for your family. The house looks great to me, you have just arrived at the American dream!


----------



## Clarence

At times I think it's more than we need, but then at times I wish there was an option for a 3rd stall in the garage and more than 0.2 acres. But we don't have a 3rd car, my wife likes neighbors, and the neighborhood is already teeming with kids for my boys to play with. Good schools, too. So we're excited.


----------



## madclammer

add to the bennys of rp : the ability to make all adjustments with my eyes 6" away from the screen. This to me is huge ! Optical focus is still a bit of a ***** (use mrror) but every thing else is can be done observing from 0-6" out without getting beamed. a real advantage that has enabled me to get my best results ever.


----------



## Clarence

Good point, madclammer. Similar benefit from the Spyder calibration thread... I'll be able to read the colors coming directly off the screen by placing the sensor against the screen as intended instead of pointing a tripod to try to catch some light bouncing off of drywall.


And for you TX and FL guys that aren't used to basements... here's a shot of the backyard (and my boys).

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/backyard.jpg 


My wife loves the full-size windows in the basement and the walkout door (instead of a walk-up). I love the fact that there are no windows on the front side of the basement (the HT side).


-Clarence


----------



## Pedro-in-Oz

Woah! You guys in the States really love big houses!

I'm still trying to convince my wife that windows are ovcer-rated 


Ahhh, I also forgot what green grass looks like - if you have any spare rainfall send it on over....


----------



## WCP

Sorry for asking something that may have been covered already. I have read alot of this interesting thread but jump to the end to see what you finally are going with and I question why? Was not your initial problem the height of the third row and the PJ blocking the view? Now you only have two rows, but seem to be waisting space by running a RPTV set up IMHO.


Just drew this up to see what you thought, just another idea. You can have the PC and equipment in that side room as well as your software, and you could install a wet bar behind the back row of seating. This design also gives you room for EX surround speakers. Oh the things in front of the first row is bean bags to create a lower first row (my kids love ours see my site)!


Wes


----------



## Clarence

Hi Wes-


You're as good with copy/paste GIF editing as I am! Nice job.


You're right, now that the original room flipped 180 degrees from my original plans, that FP layout could also work well.


I still want to keep my options open for a 3rd row. It's really impractical with the FP layouts (because of the rear riser sight-line obstruction), but it might still work with RP (aisle access to the rear row is really the only challenge).


After seeing my actual RP setup, I still like these benefits:

+ hiding the 130 pound beast

+ eliminating the noise completely

+ eliminating the eye-level bright lights from the tubes when walking towards the seats

+ eliminating the 3-color-shadows cast by my kids and friends dancing in front of the screen

+ close-up observation during focus and optical setup and possible direct use of colorimeter

+ hiding the tangle of input wires

+ removing the noggin'-knocking obstruction from the ceiling

+ removing the sight-line obstruction potentially in the way of the rear risers...


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

I just measured the distance between rows as I've had them setup. They're spaced as they were at Saturday's "Meet & Geek", for those who were here.


Without intentionally spacing them a specified distance, only dragging them to where I had adequate knee space... only 32" row distance.


To be honest, that only leaves a few inches from the knees on my long legs to the seat back in front of me, but it's still roomier than the airline seats I spend too much time in.


So even if I used a full 36", or 3.5', or 4'... my current drawings use 4.5' between rows. It's hard to tell if that's too much. I'll drag the real rows around. Maybe the extra space will be good for letting people in and out of a row without stepping on others' toes.


-Clarence


----------



## Brian Hampton

Clarence,


Nice looking house. I was recently home shopping too and the agents were always pushing the value of the walk out basement but I wanted a "real" basement to house the HT.


I'm lucky I got a basement with a bulkhead and stairs and it looks like it would be really easy to get out fast if needed.


-Brian


----------



## plain fan

Clarence,

Do your drawings accurately (as close as possible) the distance between the front wall and the screen? What is that distance?


----------



## Phil Smith

Nice house! I really like the siding, something almost unheard of on a new home in Dallas.
Quote:

_Originally posted by Pedro-in-Oz_
*Woah! You guys in the States really love big houses!*
Not sure why, but that really is true. We tend to buy houses WAY bigger than we really need. I'm guilty as well.


----------



## garyfritz

How else are you gonna have a couple hundred extra square feet lying around to build an HT !??


----------



## WCP

I took a little more time on my design even though you have turned it down, I want to win you over (show it to the Wife).


I worry about a couple things with your drawing, First the walk way between the computer room and the theater will be a tight squeeze to say the least and just will not look right. Plus you stated you wanted to keep the third row option but you have no room for a third row in your drawing. As you will see in mine I have now essentially 4 rows. Sure the bar stools might be blocked but I think the wet bar will be a big hit with you and visitors. The drain and plumbing is right there on the wall that supports the bathroom I believe.


My first theater was 16'x9' and it was a tight fit, I feel your seating area will be a confining (feel) small area and surround will not be at all optimal.



Just think about it!


Wes


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by plain fan_
*Clarence,

Do your drawings accurately (as close as possible) the distance between the front wall and the screen? What is that distance?*
Hi Grady-


That's exactly the area I was playing with in the next version. Plus, I was toying around with a third row, but I don't think I'm going to try to squeeze that in - I doubt we'd need more than 9 seats but maybe once a year.


Version 24:










Also note that I measured the actual width of 5 of my seats. They are a few inches narrower in total than depicted before.


As for the space between the screen and the wall behind the screen, I originally drew it to 7.5' based on my preliminary math (before building my test rig). But the mirror is slightly too small to allow folding the light path in half. In my current test rig (still with the 1271 instead of my M8000), the distance is 9'.


So I won't finalize that distance until I actually drag the Marquee behind the screen and try to do a more exact RP+mirror setup. But I doubt it'll be 7.5' - although I do have a second mirror if I really want to try to minimize the projection room depth.


But for now, I slid the screen out to meet the 9'4" wall.


Also note that I'm currently depicting the screen width as 9'4" (112"w) since that's the actual image width of my Da-Lite screen, even though it is widely advertised as 10' wide.


I also moved the "behind screen entrance" to the top of the drawing (viewer's left when facing the screen), which will be behind drapes.


After seeing Bill's Momitsu at my Meet & Geek, I'm also rethinking even having an HTPC in there. I figure 90% of my viewing is DVD, so building an equipment rack into the space under the stairs is my most recent notion. It only needs a Momitsu and my audio amp. Maybe I'll put my TVOne XGA Theater scaler there for any s-video -> VGA (XGA 768x1024) inputs (like my kids' PS2). I'm not sure what we're doing for cable/dish/ISP/HD. I'm also not sure if I can get DC OTA on my FusionHDTV card since we're moving further out. But I might need a transcoder. Or if we don't get HD, I might just run s-video cable/dish through the XGA Theater scaler.


Anyways, the short answer to your question was 7.5' as previously drawn. 9'4" as currently drawn. Possibly less after I swap my primary projector behind the RP.


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by WCP_
*I took a little more time on my design even though you have turned it down, I want to win you over...

Just think about it!


Wes*
Ah, you're killing me Wes! I'm just about convinced that RP is the only way to go, but then your plan does add a couple of attractions...


PROS:

+ wet-bar tapping into bathroom water supply and drain.

+ no wasted space for RP projection room

+ mingle room in the back (bar stools), room to drag extra seating when needed

+ use existing door, no need to demolish bathroom walls to build second entry

+ room for a wider FP screen instead of squeezing down to an unimaginably tiny 112" wide as depict in v24.


CONS:

- Marquee is hanging from the ceiling (but I'll check the throw distance, as shown in your drawing with only one riser, it doesn't look too bad... maybe a nice hush box would be sufficient)

- RP would just be fun and different (but maybe sticking with my mega-screen is sufficient)


RP (as shown in version 24 ):

+ hiding the 130 pound beast

+ eliminating the noise completely

+ eliminating the eye-level bright lights from the tubes when walking towards the seats

+ eliminating the 3-color-shadows cast by my kids and friends dancing in front of the screen

+ close-up observation during focus and optical setup and possible direct use of colorimeter

+ hiding the tangle of input wires

+ removing the noggin'-knocking obstruction from the ceiling

+ removing the sight-line obstruction potentially in the way of the rear risers...


Tedd? Fritz? Larry? Phil? Grady? Clammer? Come on guys... chime in.


-Clarence


----------



## Phil Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by WCP_
*...Sure the bar stools might be blocked but I think the wet bar will be a big hit with you and visitors...*
Wes is just trying to create potential for a free drink. Someone get Wes into rehab! 


I rarely drink (I've already drank more than my quota for one lifetime) and a bar is not something high on my priority list. They do look cool, but I wouldn't put one in unless there was available unused space. I vote for the 3rd row.


I agree that getting the rear speakers a good distance behind you really does do a lot for the sound. But unless you have a really big room it's kinda hard to allocate space solely for that purpose.


I got my Rose Brand screen installed last night. For a variety of reasons I'm not too thrilled with it. But I know everyone's tired of my whining, so I'm going to quit bitching about it. I only mention this because FP deserves consideration solely because of RP screen issues. I think for your situation RP solves a lot of problems, but it may create a very undesirable one. You have a lot of time before you move to critique and test. I would keep at it and make sure RP is the way you want to go.


----------



## Tedd

I was very leery of the room shrinking in your last drawing...


I have been in some pretty nice smaller dedicated rooms but if you have the space, why not try to keep at least most of it? You are getting down to the limited area that I have pretty fast, and you have even less length then me. And I am thinking of parking the rear end of my Barco 808 under the front stage to keep every single square foot of space I can, in the theater and not in the projection room. And the Mrs likes the idea of my big subwoofer (Big Ugly, she has named it. You can tell she REALLY loves it...) out of sight in the fp room.


The bar could work quite nicely and I think some swivel stools at 24" tall might give you a pseudo third row of seating without the extra riser. I also like the beanbags for the kids so you could really pack 'em in and save the seating for the adults. The room is less dedicated but more practical for entertaining. On the other hand, the subwoofer might start rattling all the bar's glassware like it does in my current basement configuration with the open area bar adjoining the family/mediaroom. I plan to convert this area for dvd, SACD and DVD-A storage, and possibly use it as an airlock style entry.


The bar area might mean a popcorn maker, additional plumbing expenses, cabinetry, bar stools and of course, a suitable supply of booze. It could get really expensive..... I do like the idea if you don't go rear projection though. The single riser as drawn might also add up in lumber costsas it represents half the room. It'd be cheaper to limit the riser area to the second row of seating and use 30" bar stools. Simpler to build and it perserves headroom a tall guy like yourself.


It still boils down to the usual front projection versus rear projection pros and cons. But it also simplifies the screen choices.




Just how big is your rp mirror is? (for my own personal information).


----------



## WCP

Just to add this bit of info I am LDS and don't drink at all. The wet bar could be more of a concession stand with popcorn and microwave and a small refrigerator for soda pop.  So no rehab for me!


Just another note on your latest drawing makes you walk completly out of the theater, in through the PJ room then into the equipment room just to swap DVD's out? This would get old fast for me. I love to demo stuff as I am sure you do, just think of the hassel playing around will be.


Wes


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

You have a lot of time before you move to critique and test. I would keep at it and make sure RP is the way you want to go.
RP seems like it has so much potential, but I really don't want to spend the next 6 weeks buying $200 worth of Dazian , then $350 worth of Gerriets, just to find out that I'm only able to get 90% of the image that I know and love from cheap and easy FP.


It seemed great when I thought the unfinished space in my new basement was larger than I needed for a HT, but you guys have seen that space shrink from week to week.


Wes makes that space look roomy again.


The bar could/would wait for quite a while until the true essentials got implemented.

Quote:

Just how big is your rp mirror?
32"x42"

I have 2 of them, so I could try butting them together to make 42"x64". That would definitely be large enough to cut the throw distance in half, to push the projection room back to 7'.


But that bar is looking good. Probably primarily as a snack bar. I don't keep a stocked bar, just a good variety of microbrews. But I've always wanted a kegerator for a quarter-keg of Sierra Nevada, or a rotating stock of whatever my local wine shop has for tap.


OK, stay tuned for v25; let's give FP one more good look...


-Clarence


----------



## GlenC

Clarence,


If you need more viewing distance, you may be able to move the projector partially under your stage, just under the screen. You might be able to get an extra 2' or so, depending on the available size of your mirror.


Your plans are looking good. The HTPC may work if you store your DVD's on the HD and have all available for viewing.


----------



## Tedd

Now we know why Clarence is really good at Visio....


I also edited my comments and added some about the riser as drawn.


Would doubling the rp mirrors up leave a line? Worth a trial run anyways. The measurement was for myself to give me some comparison figure with the 48" wide mirror I have. Of course, there always is a smaller screen option that would shrink the projection room size and pull the second row of seating off the back wall more.


The htpc could also work with a used Immersive holo3Dgraph card added. Then the dvd player feeds the htpc which acts as a scaler and outputs to the pj. I use this setup with a SDI modded RP82 (and a Denon 2900) for it's performance and simplicity of the htpc that acts like a dedicated piece of hardware, and not a pc. It has a very high WAF as the htpc can be reduced to powering on and allowing to boot. The dvd player remote takes over. The computer can be pretty much transparent in the chain, yet the H3D software allows extensive picture tweaking ability and source switching to allow the htpc to scale other sources (up to 480i input). SDI can also be run long distance without damaging pq.


----------



## CMRA

Clarence you have impeccable taste! Now we know the 'rest of the story' behind those CRTs.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

If you need more viewing distance, you may be able to move the projector partially under your stage, just under the screen. You might be able to get an extra 2' or so, depending on the available size of your mirror.
The projector distance isn't constrained against the screen as is. The basic geometry hasn't changed too much since the very first night I did a mirror test (way back at post #194)...


But having a larger mirror would mean that I could slide the projector back, to get a larger reflected image, and slide the RP screen closer for a shallower projection room depth.

Quote:

Would doubling the rp mirrors up leave a line? Worth a trial run anyways.
I would've thought so until I spent the first week using thick yellow twine wrapped around the vanity mirror (remember the bed sheet test before I got this Da-Lite RP?), instead of just the frame of this first-surface mirror (shown here). For the life of me, I couldn't see the impact of the twine on the projected image. So I think a


----------



## Clarence

OK, here's v25... revisiting FP:

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht25.gif 


I went ahead and tried a 3rd row, but the "snack" bar is more likely; eventually.


The door obscures the screen. Plus, I need to figure out speaker placement.


I'm back up to 11' wide 


-Clarence


----------



## WCP

Eleven foot screen, now that sounds like the old Clarence we all have come to know.


How about an IB Sub built into the space under the stairs?


Wes


----------



## Clarence

I'm not sure I'm going to try IB or just a sub-box in a box (under the stairs). And/or I could seal off a 4'h x 4'w x 6'd volume in the HTPC room. How much volume does IB need?


The whole back half of the room (11'8") is on a riser. That's like losing 9"-10" of ceiling height. Should I step back down after the 2nd row?


That door is still blocking my screen. And preventing my proscenium, too. I should be able to mount the Front Left speaker over it, though. I wonder if I can replace the door with double curtains, airlock style (2nd set a foot inside). I never looked at pocket doors at HD either.


I need to measure the actual throw distance for 11' wide. I think I'll move my rows forward or back a few feet to get the second row to line up under the projector. I place a seat under my Marquee. If your head is directly under the green lens, it's impossible to bump your head when standing up.


I'm also toying with the idea of a bartop surface behind the second row...


My vision is a "balcony". This could be 2' deep countertop (which would block off the walking space under the backend of the projector). So when seated at the bar, the barstools face the screen.


I've got 7'7" behind the 2nd row to play with for a balcony and/or snack bar and/or bar-stool seating. I could probably just install cabinets and countertop against the back wall for the snackbar, I don't really need to walk behind it, do I?


Hmmm, I sense v26 coming soon...


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

Version 26: the balcony snackbar...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht26.gif 


-Clarence


----------



## Marshall F

Hey Clarence,


I vote you name your theater after the version number... although you might want to prepare for it being the the three digits!


On a much smaller scale, I did a similar project at home. Really, it's not comparable except for relocating all stereo & video equipment out from under the TV to a nearby closet. Now all that's left is the tube and a neat set of 3 wires. This was precipitated by a then one year old playing with the stereo. the very first knob he touched was the volume and he cranked it up to 11. Fortunately, it was off. I've yet to install a IR repeater, bu the closet is close by. Also, I can store all DVD's in there. It looks better, it removes a danger, and it really neatens things up. THAT, I think would be a huge plus for you. It was for me, anyway.


Now, that notwithstanding, you are best to figure out which scenario would be best. Forget the equipment.


Here are the two latest (hopefully v 26 FP)


http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht26.gif 



And the latest V 24 RP

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht24.gif 


I would pretend you are having guests over for drinks and a movie. Look at the doors, seating, access to bathroom, etc.


With v26 I think you'll have a lot of people exiting and entering right at the screen. Drink Pale ale. Get up to go to bathroom. Flash - light spill on screen. Door shuts. Eyes adjust back to darkness. Crash - Door slams open into screen and flash! more light spill. Not to mention the shadows while walking to door.


The RP setup, although in a smaller room - has a recessed door in the middle. I think it would allow for people to get in & out during a movie less obtrusively. No shadows - doors further away from screen.


We await V 27 with double mirrors.



Marshall


----------



## Thomas-W

Quote:

How much volume does IB need?
 4-10 times the sum of the Vas of the driver/drivers being used. Bigger is better........


Using a 'box' sub in a custom design HT like this, is sort of like deciding to use a Sharp 27" TV instead of your projector......


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Thomas-W_
4-10 times the sum of the Vas of the driver/drivers being used. Bigger is better........
So for a 15" sub with a VAS of 9.92 cu ft, my 4'x4'x6' proposal in the HTPC/equipment room was almost exactly the proper 10x volume. Right?


That's also probably about the same amount of volume I could box in under the stairs, if I wanted/needed a 3rd sub. Or is that too much? (is there such a thing as too much bass?)


----------



## plain fan

Quote:

Plus, I was toying around with a third row, but I don't think I'm going to try to squeeze that in - I doubt we'd need more than 9 seats but maybe once a year.
That's what the floor is for, right?  Besides kids like the floor!


The snack/wet bar design is nice, but do you really want someone getting a glass of water, popping a bag of popcorn, digging around in a poorly lit cabinet etc... while you and your guests are trying to enjoy a movie?? That is why we all love our HTs, because we are King and we control what goes on in our kingdom.


kal, has a nice design w/ a pool table, wet bar and theater all mixed into one space in his basement. But I would be concerned with light control in the rear of the theater. And rear speaker placement could be tricky. You wouldn't want guests getting blown away with rear surround sound while they were trying to mix their drink.


Everyone keeps talking about an IB sub for the riser but have you considered the butt shakers and tactile transducers? These would cut down on the need for huge subs (yeah I know a large sub(s) is something a man should be proud of having...get your minds out of the gutter!) and would replace high SPL with something everyone can enjoy, feeling the explosion in their rear end. Nothing like feeling the T-Rex put its foot down next to you and your kids would love it. I'm thinking about adding some to the seats in my room as well.


----------



## WCP

Just a note on the door issue, I was hurting for room with my theater design also so I opted to have the door swing out onto the hall like I drew on my last picture. It works fine and you can have it swing which ever way would be best to block the light from the hall when it's being opened. The side entrance would be better but to the trouble I don't think it is necessary.


Wes


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Marshall F_

The RP setup, although in a smaller room - has a recessed door in the middle. I think it would allow for people to get in & out during a movie less obtrusively. No shadows - doors further away from screen.


Marshall
So your vote is for going back to RP with a shallower projection room by using double mirrors?


I'll consider re-adding that second door to the FP v26 plan (except that involves demolition of the newly pre-finished bathroom wall).


The other thing I don't like about the door in FP v26 (aside from the interference with my proscenium screen stage), is that every moviegoer will have to walk towards the CRT (and into the RGB lights) while walking to their seats. If the side door is there, the come in only looking at the side of the hushbox.


New door PROs:

+ less light spill on screen

+ easier access to bathroom

+ enter without facing emitting lights from CRTs

+ no interference with proscenium or front left speaker


New door CONs:

- demolition (involves only moving one existing outlet at the end of a wire run)

- removes sq footage from bathroom


----------



## Marshall F

Quote:

So your vote is for going back to RP with a shallower projection room by using double mirrors?
Yes, I think from 2 standpoints. The first is equipment, which most agree RP wins. The second is room design. And, by the way, if you insist on using 'proscenium' I'm going to use 'ergonomics' a lot. You would be the best judge of this, but I just would get tired of a traffic flow in front of the screen, and subsequent light spill. ergonomics.


I curious to see how the double mirrors will turn out... No chance of extending the room in one direction to house the PJ in a RP setup? You could have a tunnel & everything. Great escape theme... Hogan's Heroes style barracks on the floor above. JK, but a small cavity to house the PJ would add some room!


ergonomically,


Marshall


----------



## Thomas-W

Hi


There is no such thing as too much bass..........


I suggest not mixing IB's with other subs.


You'll probably want to 2 if not 4-15"s in an IB. Therefore I suggest looking at drivers with a much lower Vas. There are some very high quality car drivers that have very low Vas. HERE's one example. Note that 2 or 4 15"s isn't not overkill for an IB sub. When properly EQed IB's go lower than normal "box" subs. But unlike box subs who's output is limited by the thermal heating of the voice coils, IB's are limited by the excursion of the suspension. As a result if you want 'reference' levels, it's a good idea to use multiple drivers. That decreases distortion, increased output and ensures that you won't bottom the VC's with high SPL's.


There are links on the FAQ page to the gallery pages where you can see different ways IB's can be installed. Using 'manifold' mounting 4-15"s take up very little physical space.


Note that there is no other sub design that provides the quality of bass from an IB. $5000 'box' subs aren't even close to the sound quality of a $500-$600 IB.


----------



## emdawgz1

Clarence, I vote for the 2 mirror RP Plan. I assisted on the install of one of these a couple o years ago and it looked great.


Three suggestions.

1 Paint everything in the Projection room black it helps the pq.

2 Give yourself enough space in the room to do the necessary tweaking. ( the room we did this in was so tight it was very difficult to adjust the picture.

3 plan for light and ventilation. You probably wouldnt forget(like my boss did ) but put small light in the pj room. It will come in handy.


Good luck. Cant wait to see the screenshots


----------



## Belcherwm

Clarence,


One way or another I think you need to go with the side entry. It' s just too distracting to have a big visual feature that close to your screen.


Also, if you do the side entry under the stairs you could flip the door to the bathroom side and use the space under the stairs for storage, components or even a ticket window.


Here's what I see when I come in my room:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/506...0_1034-med.JPG 


I got my loveseat in yesterday. Here's what my seating looks like until I send the extra chair back. I've discovered that my 9" riser isn't high enough to have *2* rows of the Berkline 088s. The front row heads block the view of the bottom of the screen. I think your seats will work, but I'd definitely stagger them.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/506...0_1043-med.JPG


----------



## Clarence

Looking good Bill. I bet you're glad to finally get those seats.


Maybe I'll bring my seats and try them on your riser. I was wondering how high to go.


Or if they work on your riser, I'll trade you my seats for your Berklines 


-Clarence


----------



## Tedd

I'd call this the version 25 as it is the middle ground between version 24 and 26. But it's been taken.... Is 27 spoken for yet?










It is a rough idea that might have some potential... It is a dual mirror Rep setup that tries to keep the theater room as large as possible. I've moved the bathroom wall, adding the sink area to the home theater. (too bad it wasn't a half bathroom!) and if there can be room for a theater doorway and a new sink location then the whole riser can be pulled back which could free up room for a shallower, dual mirror, rear projection room. Rehanging the bathroom door to open outward would also help. There might be room to get a sink and theater passage between the bathroom and stairs, or a smaller corner style sink could be installed. If it were my room, that bathtub would be yanked completely.


The bar sink could literally go anywhere since it is on the riser which can hide the water and waste lines. You needn't tie it to the corner wall at the bathroom. It could even go in the bar top island and have a matching cover for the top. A low profile set of taps where the water spigot pulls out on tether would keep it's profile minimal. And a bar fridge could even be tucked into the end of the bar island. And no pj overhead with rp so a more open feeling room.


The bar sink could literally go anywhere since it is on the riser which can hide the water and waste lines. You needn't tie it to the corner wall at the bathroom.


The AV rack could even go in the end of the bar instead of the fridge. You could also then use the bar island for the pc and if you wanted to get really wild, part of the bar top could even hinge up to reveal a lcd monitor. It'd be less claustrophobic then that small (and shrinking) side room plus this could also add that short wall where the pc is shown, to house additional media. As an afterthought. the htpc could have music added to it to feed the receiver for DPLII to give you music while doing computer work.


The plan also allows room for a proper sized doorway to the storage room, potential sub woofer or equipment rack under the stairs, or the bar island could even become the sub woofer enclosure. The sub could also go in the rear projection room out of eyesight.


There'a also a precedence for that bar island idea. The Fadum home theater has a work space desk area behind the two rows of seating with a pair of upholstered swivel chairs there. It is used as an office space.


----------



## Tedd

Another potential idea from the Fadum theater to gain some headroom. The floor joists could be beefed and then a couple of inches of joist depth removed to recess a crt projector a few inches. I would recommend going with a professional to design something like this, but if the joist spans aren't too long and you need an extra few inches of headroom to make the room work, it might be worth the work, effort and expense.


----------



## Clarence

I'm not seeing the magic in that design , Tedd...


That RP set up is only about 4' deep. If the projector is 3' deep, that means I'd need about a 4'x8' first-surface mirror (like $8000?!). Even if I recessed the back end projector under a proscenium, that would only reduce the throw distance in half (to about 7'+) and the RP mirror would still have to be larger than my 2 mirrors butted together. And even if I bought a 3rd mirror for a double bounce, I doubt I could get less than 5' or 6' deep for a 10'w screen.


If I go with RP (probably only a 45% chance now), I suspect I'll either use 9'4" depth (to match the existing room below) or 7' depth (to allow an entry into the HTPC/tinker room).


If I go FP, I'd like to restructure the joist to get a recessed hushbox like Cheryl and Steve's ...

http://www.blarg.net/~sesmith/index_...Hush%20Box.jpg 


-Clarence


----------



## Budget Pete

I am the last person to give advice on this but...

I would definately go RP. Airlock curtains are cool, it's like going into a 'secret room'.

I saw a rear projection setup in Sydney, and it was just so bloddy nice to be able to go an inch from the screen, and no shadows, no blinding.

It also just looked soooooo good, kinda like a 2m wide plasma screnn - it was magic.

It was so good I considered buyin some tin sheeting to build a 'tunnel' off the back of my shed to put my projector in just so I could setup a rear system.

I also wouldn't want to lose the 'hidden gear' factor, the room is so clean and clear and quiet that you just enjoy the show....


----------



## garyfritz

I'm with Pete, Clarence. If I had the depth in my room, I'd go RP in a heartbeat. It dispenses with so many problems and hassles.


You've got the space, and you've done the research to prove you can make it work. If it was me, and I had to choose between RP and a 3rd row of seating, there would be no contest.


Gary


----------



## Tedd

I was thinking a double mirror setup and a six to seven foot deep rear projection room and let the screen size be decided by the available throw (and price of mirrors -$8,000 is just insane for a mirror!). Then pull in the seating to the screen, to get back that BIG picture feel. The only thing you lose is the huge screen WOW factor when walking in the room. But you gain improved sound from your sound system as the speakers won't buried in the corners, much improved picture quality keep a good sized room with lots of seating.


If that eleven foot screen is the number one priority, rear projection can be ruled out. Then I'd explore what restructuring the joists will buy you headroom-wise. And I'd also do the side door entrance and eliminate the existing entry door. V26 works great for a front projection setup, except for the exisiting door.


Once you are in the house, you could mockup the room and get a good feel for it.


----------



## Clarence

Here's v28 (a cleaned-up front projection)...











I'll clean-up the lastest RP plan, too.


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence












Don't think as the bottom tinker room as an HTPC room. I really plan on 90% of my viewing to be DVD through the Momitsu.


The other 10% might be OTA FusionHDTV. Or laptop with wireless internet. Maybe PS2 through my TVone XGA Theater scaler (s-video -> 1024x768 HD15 output). And those connectors will be under the proscenium panel.


The small entry beside the top of the screen will be behind a curtain.


Maybe I'll build them both... I have enough projectors, screens, theater seats, and mirrors. Our new neighbors a block away are building the exact same model with the same solo unfinished room in the basement. Hmmm...


----------



## mp20748

Clarence,

I read over your plans and would like point out two things for you to consider before you go forward.


- Rear projection display (at that distance) will only be effective if the mirror in use is of optical grade (very expensive). And even with an optical grade mirror, you'lll still loose some intensity.


- Most seem to think that the disadvantage of larger screens is the lose of light lumens. That's true, but that's not the only loss you'll experience with screens widths beyond 96" wide. You'll also loose the ability to properly resolve todays high resolution images. For Hi-Def, you'll need to be able to get good spot size, and the further away you move the projector, the larger the dots will get. The larger the dots, the more the image will appear out of focus. An out of focus image, is not good for Hi Definition images.


I wanted to make last Saturday, but could not. I would still like to come out and look at your system.


----------



## Clarence

Hi Mike-


The mirrors I'm using for RP are 32"x42" first-surface 94%+ optical retro mirrors. No scratches, no swirls, heavy, quality stuff. I've never seen a higher quality reflection.


But honestly, I think I'm leaning back towards FP. I like the extra social space in the back of the room.


The 3 other spots I had picked out for RP in the house have significant structural or ducting in the wall. I'm actually toying with putting the RP in the 9'4"x7'8" HTPC tinker room of the HT plan above. If the front row was on a moveable platform, I could drag it around for RP FusionHDTV. I'm just looking for some way to keep this RP dream alive. It was fun to play with.


I watch HD at 172" currently. Ignorance is bliss. I know it could look much better at 96" and perfectly focused, but I still think it blows the socks off of anything I've seen (so I'm not sure I want to see a better, smaller setup).


I think I'll have to have an encore for the Meet & Geek before I disassemble my systems for the move. I'd love to see your transcoder and modded Momitsu. Plus I'd like to meet you (and the other locals that had a conflict with last weekend). Not this weekend though... cub scout campout (and yes, there are thunderstorms in the forecast).


-Clarence


----------



## garyfritz

Clarence, if you want more room in the viewing area, how about putting the PJ in the tinker room?


There's no reason why the projection fold has to be in the vertical direction, is there? You could shoot the PJ from the tinker room with a sideways mirror to fold it onto the screen. Of course, you may still be limited by your mirror size.


Where did you find those mirrors, anyway? Pricey?


----------



## GlenC

Clarence,


How do you plan to overcome the projector brightness issue with FP.


With 54"x96" screen for reference, then on a 74"x132" screen you increase screen area to 189%, resulting in 53% of the lumens. High gain screens yield hot spots and react poorly to any ambient light.


----------



## Clarence

Hi Glen-


I'm already accustomed to and very satisfied with the brightness at 144"w (172" diag), even with B&C at 40 and G2s at default (on a unity gain painted wall).


Both screens that I'm considering in the new house are smaller... 11' for FP and 9'4" for RP.


Gary: ChrisH had a couple of the retro mirrors in DC and made me a fair deal. A 32x42 mirror is good for folding about 4' off my throw distance. Going larger than these 32x42 mirrors though gets unaffordable (for me; but for others, $1000+ for a mirror in a HT isn't too bad). If I decide to go RP, I will probably have to butt the 2 mirrors together to form 42x64, which will be sufficient to fold my throw in half... ~7.5' projection room depth instead of 15' throw.


-Clarence


----------



## CMRA

Do you really mean this? :


"But honestly, I think I'm leaning back towards FP. I like the extra social space in the back of the room."


You have put in too much effort and gone too far. Don't surrender. You may be closer to nirvana than you think.


----------



## Clarence

"Don't Surrender"?!

2 weeks ago you were laughing at my tests and scoffing the mere consideration of trying RP.


Look at the 2 floor plans side-by-side above.


Anyone could rightfully say

- "you're taking up a 9' x 20' space for a dedicated projection room (more space for the projector than the moviegoers?!) for a screen that's smaller than you had in your last house"?!

- "you're considering spending $250 and $350 on other RP screens that 2 people have commented on, and likely $hundreds more for a larger mirror, vs sticking with FP that has kept you grinning every day for the last 6 months, loved and shared and bragged about by 1000's of others daily"?!

- "you had a chance for a wet-bar in the back of the room but chose to push your seats against the wall instead?!"


I've got to admit, the challenge and novelty of RP is/was it's biggest attraction. It boils down to the image on the screen and how we will/can really use the HT space. I just think I can get better use of the square footage in front of the screen, instead of making it inaccessible behind a RP screen.


I revisited each of the "negatives" of FP, and the "positives" I touted for RP. Getting the projector off of the middle of the ceiling is probably the biggest attraction. Noise is no big deal. Ambient light is no big deal. Input wires are no big deal. Shadows are no big deal.


Plus, going down to 9'4" screen width for RP. Ewwww.... 


-Clarence


----------



## WCP

Clarence, with that post your starting to sell me on the FP idea also! 


No really, had you had an additional 10 or so feet of length to work with I would have said sure why not go RP.


Wes


----------



## madclammer

clarence. you do what you need to do to keep grinning obliviously but iwould ask, have you ever REALLY TRIED using recommended crt screen sizes ? you can say that "14' wide looks great to me" all you want and butter up screen shots all day to prove it but i think the 8' wide for crt laws are tried and true. When you say that noise and shadows are no big deal i also disagree. I would not use rp if i needed a mirror but my theater plus pj room is 13x26 this is roughly what you are working with. my advise is sit closer to an eight foot screen and hide everything and enjoy top notch eye candy with the recomended screen size for your marquee. Best regards.


----------



## CMRA

I requested more convincing info. You delivered. Four weeks ago I questioned your motives. Today, I'm convinced RP success is well within your reach and heartily recommend you stay the course. Just needs some 'marcorsyscom' magic, that's all.

Again, your'e close. Very close. Don't throw in the towel, good buddy!


----------



## Briands

Clarence,


Maybe this has been discussed already. For your rear projection, have you considered an edge blended side by side pair. This would allow you to use 4:3 rasters of two machines to drive your screen (you already have 2 mirrors). Not to mention that using the full hight of the raster would allow you to shorten your throw significantly. I know the edge blending is not really proven yet, but with PCI express right around the corner I'm guessing more power will be coming to video cards soon (Maybe before you finish your house).


----------



## Clarence

Hi Brian-


I don't know if that's been mentioned before or not... but that's thinking outside the box.


My projectors are probably all too different... Marquee 8000, VPH 1271, ECP3101, ECP4101.


Probably not in the next 6 weeks, but if/when blending becomes feasible, I'd love to play with it, even with heterogeneous projectors (different manufacturers, different tubes, different lumens, different video chain). Man, I'm going to miss my unfinished basement (HT tinker lab).


In theory it would address several of the design issues...

+ I could get increased brightness by running each projector with a smaller projected image... say 76" wide. Even with 25% overlap for blending, that's 57"+76"=133" wide!

+ I could reduce the depth of my projector room, because the throw distance for 76" wide is nothing, especially when folded with a mirror.

+ I could use the (2) 32"x42" mirrors that I already have


I saw a few threads, I think in the HTPC forum about Nvidia cards with blending. Seemed like a feature that was hyped, then vaporized. Anybody know if it's matured?


I've seen it done with a million dollar setup at a customer site... blending 3 CRTs with RP. But is it available to play with on


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*I've seen it done with a million dollar setup at a customer site... blending 3 CRTs with RP. But is it available to play with on*


----------



## Clarence

It was 5 years ago, but I'll see if I can find a picture of that 30' screen. It looked pretty much like this one :
http://www.panoramtech.com/photos/bn_panowall.jpg 


It was before I thought that I could afford one (or more ) of those CRT beasts at home, so I'm not even sure which projectors we used. My task was the software on the screen, not behind the screen.


I remember watching the tech converge and blend the overlaps. I also remember that the overlap was visibly off on a subsequent visit. And I know they scheduled him to come again the day before our big presentation.


AVS announced a $15K-$90K blended system . With Tim, so you know it's gotta be good.

Tim Martin's Got a WINNER BLENDING TWO 9" CRTs Side-By-Side!!! 


MorpheusSzeto has an impressive blended screenshot in this thread:
Poor Man's HD = Two 1024x768 DLPs = 1804x768 for 2.35:1? 

Then cocquebert says he's doing it with (2) 1031's for a 200" image!


Here are a few links on the nvidia blending:

Blending 2 projectors using a PC. It works!! 

http://www.nvidia.com/object/vis.html 
_"The single-system powerwall technology allows any application to be projected on a dual-channel powerwall, with sophisticated edge-blending to achieve uniform luminosity. Best of all, powerwall technology is entirely application transparent-any application can benefit from advanced projected visualization with the full graphics capabilities of Quadro FX technology... Powerwall is only available on NVIDIA Quadro FX 1000, 2000, 3000, and 3000G models, and will be enabled in the next major NVIDIA driver release._"

nVIDIA Quadro FX2000 $1109 
nVIDIA Quadro FX1000 $615 


-Clarence


----------



## Briands

The big hold up I see now is that the current hardware (even if drivers allow the video out to do this) does not allow processing of external HD sources. Even internal HD from the hardware cards would not work. You could use one of the software HD cards, but it still would does not allow Sat or Cable HD viewing. DVDs should be GREAT though.


Alternative point on this topic. Is there a way to do this analog? Use a distribution amp to develop two identical analog signals. Process these analog signals (timing adjustments?) to get two overlapping halves. Could you artificailly tweak the fron porch on one and the back porch on the other. Then use linearity adjustment to stretch that portion of the signal across the whole raster. Then you'd need to blend using a crossover. Think of it as a two way speaker system escept you want to cross over in the time domain not the frequency. Any circuit guys think this could work?


Just thinking outside the box again. BTW, I'm pretty sure this would be resolution/ timing specific so for a good system you would need multiple memory slots with storage for parameters for each source.


I think I'll post this idea as a seperate thread since (no offence Clarence) some may not read this thread.


----------



## Clarence

I would hope that some people may not read this thread. Heck, I can barely read it...


RP or FP? Geez, I wish this guy would just make up his mind already. 


The threads in the post above should be a better place. Blending is amazing stuff, but probably not something I'll do in 6 weeks.


----------



## Briands

Yes, you really got me thinking of options. I really like the idea of rear projection, but not in this theater. I am finally getting it squared away. But its never too early to begin planning the next one 


About those mirrors you have. They are first surface, correct. What is the substrate? Glass? I am trying to figure out what would work for an anamorphic mirror. If you could get a flexible first surface mirror (maybe a polished chrome on a sheet metal substrate), then you could easily bow it to compress the vertical. Again allowing more phosphor usage to light up those HUGE screens you like.


Have you considered torus hi gain for your front projection options to improve the image brightness?


----------



## CMRA

This is exciting. Once again, leave it to Clarence to lead the way!


This has the potential to be an 'everyman's' deluxe Home Theater.

My head is spinning thinking of the possibilities. Even a couple of low cost X1s or 6100s mated with dual channel power wall could knock most of us over with a feather. The secret will be making the 'stitch' seemless.


Let's see. $400 to $600 for the video card, $160 for the fusion HDTV card, and a couple of PJs (about $500) if you are Clarence...( $2k for the rest of us)...hmmmm.


awesome.


----------



## Clarence

OK, my RP plan isn't dead yet...


I just borrowed the 42"x57" vanity mirror from the Master Bath. This is pretty close to the size I get if I butt my (2) 32"x42" first surface mirrors together to form 42"x64". Of course I'll keep seeking a larger single first-surface mirror, I'm also doing RFQs for first-surface acrylic. But on with the bathroom mirror experiment...


For one thing, even the bathroom mirror produces a good RP image. The other thing that's amazing is I'm back to my quicky mount method using yellow twine across the face of the mirror to hold it at an adjustable angle. I can't see the fine line of the twine enough to whine.


The larger mirror allowed me to pull the projector further away from the mirror. With the 32x42 mirror, the lenses were about 3' away. With the larger mirror, the lenses are now 5'6" away. The screen is about 8' away. For a total folded throw distance of 13'6". For a projected image width of 9'4" (112").


There's still a couple of inches of unused mirror space on the sides... I'm pretty confident I can pull the lenses back another 6" and move the screen closer another 6" and get the same projected image width. This would bring the butt end of the projector to the back of the screen, so it shouldn't be necessary to slide it under the proscenium.


Do you guys remember version 19?

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht19-rp.gif 


It required a hinged screen to access the projector...
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/screen-hinge.gif 


Since the snack bar area appealed to me so much.

And I was so concerned about losing too much square footage to the projection room behind the screen.

And since the HTPC room behind the screen might be 90% replaced by a Momitsu (which could be mounted under the proscenium).

And since the existing door is already at the base of the stairs.

And since my 10' Da-Lite RP screen is 9'4"w...


I might flip the room direction 180 degrees again.


Move the bar into the 9'4" old-HTPC tinker room.


Let me go get my laptop with visio. Stay tuned for v30...


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

So I think it's between these two...


Version 30 (rear projection):

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht30.gif 


RP PRO:

+ moves projector and wires out of sight

+ higher ambient light allowed

+ existing door placement seems fine

+ fun challenge to implement something slightly different


RP CON:

- possible warmspotting

- less experience with RP

- larger first-surface RP mirror desired/required

- snack bar probably too far for wetbar drain

- square footage lost to projection room

- how to access behind screen

- will ACON work if remounted to front of screen?


and Version 31 (front projection):

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht31.gif 


FP PRO:

+ larger screen (could be considered a negative to some, so I'll just say "flexibility for a foolish screen")

+ simple, familiar

+ no lost space for projection room

+ extra space for HTPC and tinker room

+ my wife's preference


FP CON:

- large projector hanging from middle of the ceiling at head height

- visible bright lenses, wires, fan noise, shadows on screen

- new door through bathroom

- hush box will need joist restructuring for partial recess


----------



## CMRA

But, what about 'Powerwall"? With your gift for acquiring Killer PJs at bargain basement prices, HTPC equipped, and dual blending, which option is more future proof?

The 'stacked' CRTs you read so much about sound good, but blended CRTs capture the imagination. What resolution. What brightness. What widescreen home cinema.

Now a 14 foot 'foolish' screen sounds more exciting than ever.


Thanks Clarence, you have opened up a new vista for me. Just wish I had your knack for getting great CRTs (this time, two matching) for cheap.


----------



## Clarence

The Powerwall option is included in "RP PRO: fun challenge to implement something slightly different"


It will be at least a year away... lots of challenges there, but lots of promise (homogeneous projectors with converge on green capability; blending capable video cards or scalers)


I think it sounds easier to blend one edge than to overlay and align the complete projected images in a typical stack. But everything seems easy on paper. It also seems like excellent use of dual 4:3 phosphor space.


-Clarence


----------



## Belcherwm

Clarence,


I like the unique attributes of the RP setup, but for a final product your FP with the snack bar is the best use of space.


You've got me thinking of some changes that I may want to make to the back of my room.


----------



## Gig103

Clarence - I stumbled across this thread and since I am yearning to do something like this one day, I read all 11 pages.


I say the FP is the better decision (V.31)

+ more seating area w/ the stools

+ huuge screen (big plus to me)

+ entryway is subtle, less awkward, and easier access to the bathroom.

+ access to tinker room while the boys are watching a movie


----------



## Clarence

You read all the pages?! I apologize for all the wishy-washy RP vs FP flip-flops. But hopefully it provides a sick amount of detail into the though process and tradeoffs that went into each design element.


I'm pretty sure I'm favoring FP 70% right now.


I suspect the real-life lessons-learned during actual construction this summer will be painstakingly documented as well.


-Clarence


----------



## Cosmic023

Hi Clarence,


Yep, i've read all the pages, and has made interesting reading on HT design & FP / RP methods.


I still like design v31, and agree with the others it makes use of all available space.


I'm still working on my HT, but then it's gonna be a sightly smaller room 14' x 10' with FP.


Well i'm sure (and everyone else for that matter), is waiting with baited breath which plan works out ?? 


Cheers


Cosmic023


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Clarence, this thread has surpassed Alan's "important CRT thread links" thread in views!!! You should feel quite proud your theater is being held in higher regard than the most important basics of CRT'dom.


----------



## GlenC

Clarence,


I bet you are wishing you started this thread much earlier in the construction process. From your pictures, I gather that the HT is under the front room of the house and the wall you have the FP screen on is the wall between the House and Garage. I assume they have already poured the garage floor and there is nothing under the garage.


If RP is a real goal with a larger viewing area, have you considered adding a projection room to your basement. It may not be that difficult to have a hole cut in the basement wall to add room for a mirror. A 4' to 6' bump-out would work wonders for your available space.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

this thread has surpassed Alan's "important CRT thread links" thread in views!!! You should feel quite proud your theater is being held in higher regard than the most important basics of CRT'dom
I don't know which is scarier. Me for documenting the agony, or 9000 people getting sucked into reading it.
Quote:

I bet you are wishing you started this thread much earlier in the construction process. From your pictures, I gather that the HT is under the front room of the house and the wall you have the FP screen on is the wall between the House and Garage. I assume they have already poured the garage floor and there is nothing under the garage.

If RP is a real goal with a larger viewing area, have you considered adding a projection room to your basement. It may not be that difficult to have a hole cut in the basement wall to add room for a mirror. A 4' to 6' bump-out would work wonders for your available space.
You're right on the garage location (the whole floorplan is attached). But we finalized this house last May. I didn't even find this forum or my first CRT until October (check my Registered date... I'm a newbie!). I'm actually kind of glad I didn't have a HT in mind when we were house shopping, or it would've dominated my design criteria. _"Honey, I don't care if the master bedroom is only 8'x12'... it's got enough room in the basement for both a RP and FP multiplex..."_










Besides, this house and everything else we looked at is a standard cookie-cutter tract home. I'm not too sure any of the builders would be up for digging a 4'x6' RP tunnel under the garage. If they would, I'm sure it would've cost $10K+ around here. I'd rather put a fraction of that in the HT, not literally in a hole in the ground.










I just bought a potential HTPC replacement...

LG LST-3510A at Circuit City ($449; egads... but it's cheaper than a new HTPC which I needed). It's got the 480p/720p/1080i scaling DVD player with VGA and DVI out (like the Momitsu). Plus, it's got an OTA HD tuner (to replace my FusionHDTV card)! It's been getting good reviews in the DVD player forum. CC is really good about returns, so I have 30 days to decide if it's worth keeping.


I'm even going to take it out to the construction site with my Silver Sensor antenna to see if I still get OTA signals since we're sprawling further from DC.


I'll start a new thread on it, so don't start asking questions until I hook it up.


-Clarence


----------



## garyfritz

Clarence, the solution to all your problems has been staring you in the face all this time. Look at your floorplan. Obviously you're trying to squeeze your HT into the wrong space! Looks to me like the other side of the stairs/bath is a MUCH bigger and better space to work with..... Plenty of room for RP *and* FP setups!!!


----------



## Clarence

Oops... I just plugged-in the LG HD-scaling DVD player and popped in a DVD (Pirates of the Caribbean) using the HD15 RGB out (VGA->RGBHV)... [tried 20 different DVDs, same thing]
Quote:

This disk is not available using RGB monitor for copy protection. You may be able to view this disc using the component (YPbPr) connector.
Also, I noticed the DVI connector is only DVI-D, it doesn't have the DVI-I/DVI-A analog pins.


Bummer.


Gary- I was tempted to steal that larger finished rec room from my boys, but it's got 3 windows and a sliding glass door. Too much daylight to fight for my HT


----------



## Joshua Snyder

return it and get a momitsu.... it's running perfectly scaled to whatever I want with analog RGB out.


the only way around what you are seeing is to somehow turn off the dreaded Macro-vision, if you can do that, you will be OK.


Josh


----------



## aspec2

Clarence


Have you thought about moving the laundry room. You could mount the RP in the NE corner and increase the viewing angle. The laundry room could go by the bathroom using those services.


(Trying to drive you crazy)


Walt


----------



## Clarence

That laundry room was my initial planned location for RP with a 2nd projector in the boys playroom. It was nice because it is also windowless like my HT.


But there are a lot of utility wiring and piping in that wall... HVAC, elec, gas, dryer vent, water, A/C intake vents, etc. You name it, it's in that wall. 12 months ago I might've been able to rerouted, but all drywall was completed last week.


----------



## Belcherwm

Quote:

Are you really interested in a row of seats? My wife's begging me to get rid of the rest of those seats before we move.
Pulled this back from the Momitsu thread.


I was actually thinking about you bringing a few chairs over so that you could have a real world test in my theater on how you might set up your rows. I've got 22'x12'6"x8' with a 9" riser 13'9" from the front wall.


I'm pretty comfortable in my Berklines.


----------



## Clarence

Hi Bill-


You mentioned some new ideas for the rear of your HT, I didn't know if you were thinking spare seats or cabinets for a snack bar.


That's a good idea to test the riser and row distance too. And if you fall in love with them, I'll take those Berks in trade 


-Clarence


----------



## RVonse

Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_
*So I think it's between these two...


Version 30 (rear projection):


and Version 31 (front projection):



FP PRO:

+ my wife's preference

*
The wifes preference is a big deal and your decision just got real easy, Clarence.


Start planning on front projection.


----------



## dokworm

Ahhh Clarence, your final revision has me convinced. I'd go for FP. Shame you just didn't have that bit more space tho.


----------



## noah katz

"Would doubling the rp mirrors up leave a line? Worth a trial run anyways."


The mirrors are not at a focal plane, so the image of the seam is blurred out and rendered invisible.


"$8,000 is just insane for a mirror"

http://mirotek.com/ has reasonably priced mirrors, and per above and Clarence's trials, cxan be butted yogether to make bigger ones.


"High gain screens yield hot spots and react poorly to any ambient light."


High gain screens treat ambient light similarly to projected light; off-axis ambient light will be rejected more efficiently and light from the direction of the projector more efficiently, but so is the pj's light, It's a net gain


I am trying to figure out what would work for an anamorphic mirror.


----------



## Clarence

Yep, it's looking like I'll be going with FP:

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht31.gif 


RP would be cool and the challenge would be fun, but that projection room just takes up more space than I'd like.


Noah, by anamorphic mirror, you're considering shining the full phosphor on the mirror, then having a horizontal curve to compress the light and aspect ratio? That'd be cool. Has it been done before? Mirror folding was tough enough, but convergence and focus on a curved mirror; whew!


-Clarence


----------



## Tedd

Or a dual projection setup like John The Depot Dude is attempting. RP or FP to get that big screen (and smaller throw distance for a smaller rp area). 54" x 127" 2.35:1 should keep Clarence happy and use the full rasters of both crts for maximum light output.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=400064 


You already have dual mirrors, a htpc and dual crt pjs.... John's solution might be the dual PMS scalers or the htpc he has.


----------



## Clarence

Yep, blended RP sounds very promising. But I'll wait until John the Depot Dude works out some more kinks with some blending filters that won't require a $10,000 box.


I'm going to keep my HT "adaptable"... I'm going to carpet the entire floor, even under the riser and proscenium. That way, even if I later decide to bite off something like blended RP, I can just loose the barstools and slide the other 2 rows back, and build a 6'-7' RP projection room. It shouldn't need to be as deep since each projector is only throwing a 7'-8' image each. And the 2 first-surface mirrors that I already have are perfectly sized for that too.


Combine 2 7'-8' images, use a lot more of the phosphor face, then blend to get 10'-11' RP that's 2x+ brighter. Maybe it's just a fun dream, but it sounds good on paper.


-Clarence


----------



## MC Maniac

I compliment you Clarence on making your room adaptable..


I know that if I were doing my room over today, I'd be looking at a RP setup..


This blending project has really put some wild thoughts into my head..


With user definable A/R's and crop and position features already available, I'm convinced it's only a matter of time before smooth blending happens on inexpensive PC's..


Forget 2 CRT's - what about 6 of them? Six 4:3 projectors creates a 2:1 A/R screen which is my preferred ratio, being a nice comprimise between 16:9 and 2.35..


It's not as far fetched as it sounds..


I might even lose my dinner bet with Tedd's wife as I swore I won't be buying anymore CRT's..


Anyone know where I can get a 6 way video distribution box?


LOL


----------



## plain fan

Clarence I'd second John's comments on making your room configurable. I guess that is the latest trend with some merit to it. When building a dedicated room always run more speaker cable to positions that you won't use now but might use in the future.


Who knows we may see a blending application come from a small group of dedicated, programmers from this site. The HTPC forum is full of people that have programming backgrounds.


2 projectors running blended is nice but I think that 3 would be the best. Very large screen sizes could be accomplished and the throw distances required to do it would be manageable.


----------



## Clarence

I'd just like to see 1+1 blending first. I think 1+1+1 would be much harder (you'd have to widen the center alpha mask during alignment instead of merely shifting it). But blending 3 would have a huge advantage of moving the blends away from dead center.


But separating an ideal setup (2 perfectly matched CRTs, a la Art's 2 new G90s) from a realistic (frugal, experimental) setup with existing hardware...

ECP3101+ECP4101?

1031Q+1031Q?

M8000+1271Q? (doubtful, since I don't want to remove my Marquee from my primary HT while experimenting with blending).


I'd also try blending FP before adding the 2 mirrors to the mix.


Man, I'm going to miss my current unfinished basement. I'm ready to start setting my projectors (here's 3 of the 6 ) side-by-side instead of separate screens. But my "multiplex" ( 4 screen layout ) will be dismantled when we move into the new house in a couple of weeks.


You guys are going to get me in trouble if I hold onto these extra projectors... I told my wife I'd thin the herd to 2.


-Clarence


----------



## plain fan

Well Clarence, when I do things on the cheap my expectations are proportionally lower in accordance with the budget. If I had the money to drop on 2 perfectly matched CRTs I would be there as soon as I was done signing the check.


Out of all of my friends I'm the biggest video snob. Problems I see when we're watching a movie they don't even notice. The impact of a screen size that 2 (or 3) blended projectors would provide would more than make up for some minor image issues.


I would think the biggest problem people would have when moving up to multiple blended projectors would be tube wear on their current projector. My current setup is run 16x9. I don't think I've burned the tubes since my contrast and brightness settings are very low but I haven't looked. It could create a rush to get new/remanufactured tubes from VDC. But even then I'd deal with it until I could afford new tubes.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

when I do things on the cheap my expectations are proportionally lower in accordance with the budget
My "cheap" experiments are ideally better than proportionate to the results. I aim for 80%+ solution at


----------



## noah katz

Oops, that was a cut-and-paste I meant to put in quotes and respond to. I meant


"I am trying to figure out what would work for an anamorphic mirror."


If you search the archives for a couple of years ago there was a lengthy thread on this.


The problem is astigmatism, the image not coming into focus both horizontally and vertically at the same distance from the projector.


----------



## GlenC

Quote:

My "cheap" experiments are ideally better than proportionate to the results. I aim for 80%+ solution at


----------



## Clarence

I'd never even thought of a possible gradient on the mirrors for blending.


Off to google! Or I'll be drawing millions of tiny dots with a Sharpie!


----------



## noah katz

I think sideways stacking with digital pj's and RP is feasible; a thin vertical membrane at screen center would block the light spill, and the "determinacy" of digital should allow good alignment of the images with much less effort than CRT's.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

*digital* pj's and RP is feasible
That's one setup that's not even up for consideration in my HT; at least until I burn through my 18 tubes. That'll only take about 60,000 hours.


----------



## Mark_A_W

Yeah, easy with the blasphemy Matey, I mean really, that's not the party line around here. Digital means digital convergence controls, AND THAT'S ALL.


----------



## Clarence

Well, after 54 weeks, we're finally in the house. And wow, we love it!


The HT space is nice, but looks even smaller after putting 3 Berkline 090's in there.


We had an old pull-down screen at work... anybody ever heard of a Bretford screen? It was "only" 8' wide and I don't know if it's the screen or going from 12'w to 8'w, but I did a 10 minute setup with my Marquee just because I was jonesin' from a week without CRT, it's still upside down (I did a temporary table mount while it was still setup for ceiling)... but I popped in Nemo on my Momitsu and HOLY COW it looked GREAT!


I've seen my other ECPs and VPHs at "only" 8' wide, but never my Marquee... the pop, the depth. Wow!


Makes sense, since 4'x8' is only a third the area as my previous 12'x8' screen.


I'm feeling too lazy to move the existing door in the HT, so I might end up un-reversing the room layout and keeping the screen on the back wall, which notches down to 10'. Originally, I thought this was too small, but now it's looking fine.


I'll probably crank up Visio again soon.


Oh, more good news...

I hooked up the speakers and pumped up the volume...

even with no drywall, there is very little sound bleed through any other part of the house. It's amazing. In our last house, you could go 2 stories up to my boys' rooms and hear every word. Here, I cranked the volume up to max and my wife didn't even know I had a movie playing. Cool.


-Clarence


----------



## Z-Photo

amazing what insulation will do....


I will look into that screen matter further.....


Pete


----------



## techman707

Hey Clarence, I was looking at your HT gallery and like your "multi-plex" It reminds me of a multiplex drive-in.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by techman707_
*Hey Clarence, I was looking at your HT gallery and like your "multi-plex" It reminds me of a multiplex drive-in.*
Thanks. I consider that moment the crowning achievement of our previous house...


If a 14.4' screen made me a fool, 4 simultaneous screens should make me certifiable...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...31#post3755531 
Quote:

Well my days with this megascreen are numbered because we're moving next month. So I thought I'd add the screenshots from last week's Meet & Geek to this "foolish" gallery.


Technically, only the Derby screenshot qualifies as 10'+ (it's 172" diagonal). The Rear Projection screen (showing Liv Tyler) was advertised as 10' wide, but the image material is only 9' 4" wide (but well over 10' diagonal, so maybe it qualifies on a technicality). Screens 3 & 4 are only a laughable 96" wide. 


Here are some screenshots of my multiplex setup with 4 projectors on 4 screens...


Screen 1:
_Kentucky Derby_ watched live in 1080i HD (the broadcast was kinda blah because of the dreary weather), 12'x8' (144" wide, 172" diagonal), Electrohome Marquee 8000


Screen 2:
_Armageddon_, 112" wide, Sony VPH1271 on Rear Projection Da-Lite screen.

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/multiplex12.jpg 


Screen 3:
_Fifth Element_, ECP3101 on 96" wide Formica.


Screen 4:
_Pirates of the Caribbean_, ECP4101 on 96" wide tile board.

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/multiplex34.jpg


----------



## Clarence

I haven't made many changes... just updated the drawing to show the Berkline chairs.

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht42.gif 


Especially with the chairs in place, the room seems smaller in person than it has looked on paper for the last year!


I've been too busy at work to really do anything in the HT since we moved in.


Looks like Larry might be able to come up next weekend to have a look, so I'm finally close to getting started...


I made the mistake of doing a temporary setup with the Marquee on a 8' pull-down screen... my "HT" looks great (unfinished) as long as the lights are off 


-Clarence


----------



## armstrr

which berks are you getting? (edit....90's...pays to read, eh?)


only 5.1 or are you going to add two rears for 7.1? (just got a denon 2805 myself...can't wait to hook it up properly)


----------



## Clarence

I got three Berkline 090's... I'd like to have 4 since we're a family of 4, but the room is too narrow.


I'm wiring for 7.1, but for now I've only got 5.2 (extra 15" powered LFE sub)


-Clarence


----------



## genmax

Looking good Clarence, I like the current layout.


----------



## armstrr

i would think with your size of screen, you would benefit from a curved screen/high gain material...or is this not a consideration for your ht?


----------



## Brian Hampton

Hey,


When did you switch back to front projection (I, know, read the dern thread damit.) Anyway, I'm glad because I think Front projection is the cats pajamas.


-Brian


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

i would think with your size of screen, you would benefit from a curved screen/high gain material...or is this not a consideration for your ht?
Yeah, I'm always messing with different screens... DIY paint, RP, blending...


I'll eventually try a curved screen, but for now I'm going to start simple and get something in place. There's always room for later enhancements.


Right now I'm leaning towards starting with a flat, simple 1.5 gain material.


I switched back to FP after seeing that RP would take about 10' behind the screen... and this 25' room already seems to small as is.


----------



## HK-Steve

Clarence,


Do you know which Brand screen you are looking at?


A fixed screen?

Masking system?


Cheers

Steve


----------



## Art Sonneborn

Holy smokers Clarence, your front row of captains chairs sure is close to that 10' wide screen. SMART GUY !   


Art


----------



## MC Maniac

It does look good Clarence..


However there is one CRT missing..


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Art Sonneborn_
*Holy smokers Clarence, your front row of captains chairs sure is close to that 10' wide screen. SMART GUY !   


Art*
Hi Art-


Yeah, I had visions of using the Berks in the 2nd row on the riser like a balcony or owner's box, but they recline so far forward that I'd need the 2nd row to be 6' behind the first row. So instead of 12' back (1.2x), now I'd be 18' back (1.8x)... too far for me (and you too).


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by HK-Steve_
*Clarence,


Do you know which Brand screen you are looking at?


A fixed screen?

Masking system?


Cheers

Steve*
I still change my mind weekly on this (color scheme for the walls, too)...


I've always wanted to try Goo.


And then I would like to try a DIY painted-mirror "light fusion" screen a la CMRA and MississippiMan. But finding a 10' wide mirror or plexi seems to be a challenge (and it adds up to an expensive experiment), plus I don't have a big enough compressor or sprayer, much less any spraying experience/talent. This hesitation also applies to Goo above.


After living with this generic 8'w pull-down salvaged from work for the last couple of months, I'm now content to just use something like Da-Lite Video Spectra 1.5 or their Pearlescent 1.5 material.


It seems odd that the pull-down screens are cheaper than just the material by the sq foot. The sane sizes (e.g. 72" to 96" wide) are very reasonably priced ($100-$250), but at 9' and 10' they start to add up.


But something like this is practical...
Da-lite Model C Screen - 8 x 10' - 154" Diagonal - Video Spectra - 1.5 gain 

But I'll probably pull the material off the roller and tension it to a fixed frame, so I don't have to worry about waves and ripples.

I'll build the frame and experiment with plain blackout cloth and then shop for the 1.5 gain material by the sq foot.


10' wide means 7.5'h for 4:3 and then I can mask down to 16:9 or wider.

So 75 sq ft at $4.74 for the material (just ballpark prices from here ).


For masking, I already have some really effective black velour screen drapes. The top and sides will be fixed. The bottom will probably just be manually raised/lowered with a pulley.


For color scheme, I've found several commercial carpets I like... 90%+ black. I know I want the back counter and bar to be dark cherry wood. With black granite. And I want dark cherry crown molding and chair rails. But I haven't decided on the wall fabric... hard to tell if black/gray will be too dark or I might make one half burgandy.


-Clarence


----------



## plain fan

So will it be done in time for the release of SW on disc?


----------



## Clarence

Yeah... but not 4/5/6... maybe in time for Episode III.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by overclkr_
*Hey Clarence, How's the HT coming along??


Cliff*
Quote:

_Originally posted by marcorsyscom_

Pretty good...


I've got the screen (currently only 8'w) hung with velour drapes.


I've got the front row of 3 Berkline 090 recliners set up.


I built a 4'x8' 10" riser from 2"x8"s yesterday... carpeted it this morning. I'm re-painting the frames for the 2nd row of 4 folding theater seats.


I temporarily ceiling mounted the Marquee last night. It was on a coffee table for the last 2 months... yecch... I won't miss sitting next to that beast, plus it always got the best seat in the room.


Larry's coming up next weekend to take a look. I'll need a pro's help with framing, electrical, and drywall. We're going to semi-recess the Marquee into the joists... maybe with a power winch


-Clarence
Here's the first picture of our temp setup with this weekend's work...


Call this "BEFORE"... we'll see how it progresses over the next few months.

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/HT-2004-09-07.jpg 


Note that this is completely opposite of how my previous floorplan was drawn out... This screen is on the narrowest wall... Egads, this temporary pulldown screen is ONLY 8' wide! And even scarier... that wall is only 10' wide (because of the adjoining bathroom wall and plumbing). It widens to about 13' for the first row of seats, then widens to 20' for the L-shaped area by the current door.

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht50.gif 


My wife thinks this current setup is fine; she doesn't care too much for the idea of moving the entry door to use the wider wall for a larger screen.


Larry's coming up this weekend to take a look.


The 8' screen really fits the current wall just fine. You might be able to see the velour drapes outlining the screen. Also note that even though this is an 8' screen, I did the throw distance setup for a 10' image (wishful thinking in anticipation for a larger screen still TBD).


This 4:3 DVD (Allison Krauss) fills the whole back wall even though the image is currently blocked by the masking [10' image on a 8' screen]. Great concert, but they don't use the center channel, even though it's DTS.


This is still my original M8000 until I finish the mod on the neckboards for the new tubes I installed in one of my M8500s.


I like the 10" riser even though you can't see much of it here... that black carpeting really works. I'm also painting the 2nd row of folding theater seats to flat black, reupholstered with black leather match... they're looking great.


Still trying to finalize the carpet and wall colors.


We've watched more movies in the last week in this HT than we've probably watched in the last 6 months. I watched Ice Age this morning with my 5 year old before putting him on the bus for his first day of Kindergarten. He likes sitting next to me in the same recliner. 


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

And a typical look at the back half of the room...


and 2 M8500's sitting on the work table.


----------



## Paul.Gibson

Quote:

_Originally posted by Brian Hampton_
*Hey,


Forget the floor mount. I've had my projector set up several different ways in the 3.5 years in which I've had it and ceiling mount has always worked better.


Perhaps there not typical but my cats will walk up and look right into the tubes. My kids, well, I don't think they ever did that but I didn't like having the PJ so accessable to them. My current space has a very low ceiling and it used to be an attic so it's a very tight fit but I still ceiling mount it.


-Brian*
Brian,


Yep both my kitties do the same thing (PJ mounted on flloor currently), I'mm gonna have to fix it soon as the first kiddy is not too far away.


----------



## Brian Hampton

Hey,


Wow,... that looks really small. I would have thought a 10' wide room would look a little more roomy.


I still haven't decided how to organize my basement and it's nice to see how things fit in that amount of space.


=Brian


----------



## Clarence

Yeah, after looking at it for so many months on paper, I was shocked at how small it looked as soon as I put 3 recliners in there.


It's amazing how a 20'x25' room on a floorplan can turn into a 10' tight space.


But the extra 9'4" L-shaped part of the room helps it feel more open... that doesn't show up in the picture above.


----------



## garyfritz

That's one reason why I won't be using recliners in my room. (The other being budget!!) It's only 14' wide and a shade over 14' long. You could fit 3 recliners across and still be able to get around them, but they would eat up the whole space. For now I'll be using an old couch, with barstools for a second row if I have a crowd.


----------



## pcgeek

I had a vers similar problem with a 13' wide room that was 22' deep. When I looked at the berkline dimensions, to have a walkway next to the seats I would have only been able to put 5 seats in the theater. I ended up going with some new theater seating from seatsandchairs that aren't nearly as nice as the berklines but I can fit 11 seats in the theater and it's plenty comfortable for everyone.


It really solved 2 problems for me. The width let me have a front row of 5 seats and I could put them much closer together which gave me a very comfortable 3 rows of seating (would have allowed for a lot more than 11 if I didn't have the equipment rack and door on opposite sides at the back of the room).


I don't have a better space in the basement (and lets face it, it's done and I'm not going to try to convince the wife that I need to do it over again) but for those that haven't finished a formal space yet, do not under estimate the width you're going to want for the room.


----------



## emdawgz1

Clarence, can you give me a hint as to how your "1 man CRT lift" is setup???


I'm gonna do mine that way and i'd appreciate and info.



Thanks!!



BTW the room looks GREAT! Cant wait to see a couple o screenshots of football in HD!


It give me hope for my planned room!


----------



## Clarence

I use 4 lengths of 8' chain from Home Depot.

Connect the top ends to the ceiling mount.

Use 3/8" eyebolts in the projector frame.


Use 4 "S Hooks"... lift one corner of the projector ~3 links, re-connect the S-hook to the chain and the projector's eye-bolt.


Rotate over to the next corner... lift it 3 links... reconnect the S-hook.


The other 3 chains always support the weight of the projector. Only one chain is disconnected at any time while it's being lifted.


After about 15-30 minutes you're done.


For the top link, I usually replace the S-hook with a single link that has a screw closure (I'll have to search for a picture of what I'm talking about). And then I remove the long lengths of chain. But in this case, I left the chains because I'll be removing the Marquee in the next couple of weeks for construction.


-Clarence


----------



## Clarence

Here's the single link of chain with screw closure that I use...

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/images/160-0.jpg 

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/product...?product=S0160 


They cost about $1.50 at HD.

Load limit is like 800 lbs each.


----------



## armstrr

Quote:

_Originally posted by garyfritz_
*That's one reason why I won't be using recliners in my room. (The other being budget!!) It's only 14' wide and a shade over 14' long. You could fit 3 recliners across and still be able to get around them, but they would eat up the whole space. For now I'll be using an old couch, with barstools for a second row if I have a crowd.*
my room is 13.5x20...and i ain't giving up on electric recliners....088s of course!


----------



## Clarence

I think electric is the way to go.

Plus, aren't the 088's a bit narrower? That would help.


My 090's are manual and there's really only 3 positions...

Upright, halfway, and too far.


----------



## emdawgz1

Thats exactly how i thought to do it. Hopefully nothing w/ come crashing down.


Thanks


----------



## garyfritz

armstrr -- Yeah, but you've got 6' more length to work with than I do!


emdawgz1, Clarence's chain-lift is simple and effective. If you're building a Unistrut PJ mount, there's another simple way: hang 4 lengths of 1/4" threaded rod from the Unistrut down to the floor. Make a platform for the projector and stick the thread-rods through its 4 corners. Put fender washers & nuts on the rods. Now heave your PJ onto the platform, and spin the nuts on one corner at a time until the PJ is just where you want it. Hook the PJ into the strut mounting, take off the 4 rods, and pop in a DVD. 


I'll be doing that myself in a few days...


----------



## Zordrack

hey Clarence, if you're still looking for a DIY sub here are some pointers.


first of all i would do almost anything to not use the riser for the sub. it's bound to cause a whole bunch of annoying and weird phase problems.

i know that sub's are technically supposed to be fairly unidirectional but my experience as a sound tech tells me they arent.

place a sub right and you'll have cool firm crisp base that blends in naturally with your setup. place it wrong and you'll have a big ressonance box that will be noticably out of sync with the rest of the setup masking everything out and create a huge gulf between the bass and the midrange, litterally sucking midbass out of the system.

another reason for trying to place the sub pretty much near your main speakers is that while you cannot pinpoint the actual primary sounds of the sub, there will inevitably come along a range of secondaries like ressonances and port noise. and you very much will be able to hear those.

placing your sub near your front main speakers will make that blend into the overall soundscape much better than simply stuffing it in a corner.


another common mistake that people make (and this is just personal opinnion) is people tend to let the sub play way too far up.

i've heard systems that went as far up as 160hx and frankly they sound like crap. when you get that far up your sub will seriously start to dominate the soundscape instead of blending in and more to the point your sub-drivers will start to hurt from the fact that they were never meant to play that high with any real deffinition and attack. in short you end up with the classicly over-boomy sound you get from PC-subwoofer systems and cheap all-in-one sets.

personally i would never go higher than 80hz and i'm currently in the process of building a sub that doesnt really take over till after 40hz.

while this might sound very low to some people the beauty of this is i do not need to run high order filters to cut off the box and can thus get a more (yes i'm a first order filter freak) seamless and natural blend between main and sub system.


as for drivers there are a few things you should keep in mind.

first is the fact that in almost all cases bigger is better as long as the driver maintains stiffness and lightness. and yes it is a compromise but a few people have figured it out. could i afford it i would go with the 24" TurboSound sub lows from Precision Devices ( http://www.precisiondevices.co.uk/ShowDetails.asp?id=17 ) but i cant and i got a pair of freebee Fane Colossus 18XB's which are gonna have to do the trick.

my point is though, that the subwoofer business is basicly about moving air, a lot of it and very fast. and while it's possible to get an 8" or 12" to move as much air as a 15" or 18" woofer they're going to travel a hell of a lot further to do that same job. and that's going to colour your sound plus change the actuall feel of the impulses they deliver.

one of my major gripes with regular high-end systems have been their, untill recently, almost fanatical loathing of big drivers for low frequency reproduction. yes a big driver is a lot slower but regardless of how many 8" drivers you hook up you simply will not get the same Ooompt feeling you will with a 15" or 18". dont ask me why coz i honestly dont know enough about the physics of it, i simply know that's what my experience tells me.

if you want that heavy impulse feeling that you cant really hear but know without a doubt just traveled through you you gotta go big.


which brings me to my second driver issue.

subwooder drivers rely on big drivers moving a lot of air. big drivers tend to be flappy so the only course is to firm them up and make them stiffer. doing that though adds weight and weighht adds inertia which is the number one killer when you try to move something back and forth really fast.

in order to overcome this inertia subwoofer drivers thus use a big magnetic motor. but here comes the irony. the bigger the magnet the greater the dampening of the unit at low frequencies. and the lower the frequency the bigger the dampening with a given magnet. so the the more you increase the magnet the harder it will be for that driver to reproduce low frequencies, which is why all those really big high quality subwoofers have a huge amplifier for them. they really need all that power to overcome the internal magnetic dampening and get the driver to reproduce those low frequencies.


which brings me to your amp. i'm not personally a big wattage fan. what i am a stickler for is powersupply. it simply cannot be said enough. make sure your subwoofer amp has an adequate powersupply. i would much rather use a 100w amp with a huge powerplant of a supply than a 1000w amp with a wussy lowbudget switchmode PSU.

as long as you have ample reserves in your PSU you will have clean crisp and transparent sounds with good impulse response. but the second your PSU runs outa go-juice your sub turns into a big hunk of vibrating furniture... and badly at that. distortion will go through the roof, resonances and baffle breakup will start chiming in, your soundscape will collapse in a big flappy messy hum and in the long run it might cost ya fried drivers and amps.

dont cheap out on the PSU, go for minimum 50v Rcore trafoes with at least 100K micro-farrads worth of capacitors per channel.

this will also help in dealing with nasty impedance phase changes due to poorly designed drivers and/or enclosures.


as for enclosures i know you've been tooted the IB idea. and for music i would agree. however for movies i would deffinately go with a huge ported enclosure. it packs more punch and specifically it "feels" more real. it should also be easier to get the sub into the really low range with a decent output.

dont cheap out and go for plywood. too many vibrations and resonances. go for 1"+ thick MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) i know it's a lot more expensive but it will be well worth the extra money spend. with some decnt internal struttin (MDF plates NOT beams as MDF compresses on the thickness fairly easily) you will have an enclosure that is nice and quiet in terms of resonances. you most likely wont get that with plywood and nothing sucks more than a sub humming away at it's own little melody.


which brings up another point. make sure that each side in the enclosure is not a mathematical integer factor of the others.

that is to say if one side is 2' then the others shouldnt be 4' and 6'.

if that happens your sub will start behaving like an organ pipe. and nothing you can do will prevent it from playing the note it is tuned for even when only playing other frenquencies.

you have a sub like that that feels the need to hum out a 250hz tone then it will do that even if you only give it a 10hz note. and as long as it has some energy it can convert into that note it will keep doing it.

i know i probably overstressed this issue but it's just such a stupid mistake to find you've made and have to start cutting up your fine new box.

an easy guideline to making sure this doesnt occur is to use multiples of different prime numbers for each side.


another case issue is that if you're going with two drivers then you should avoid the temptation to make one big box. accousticly one big box is exactly the same as two boxes half the size with one driver in each. but cutting down the size of the box to half means raising the floor for standing wave ressonances by one whole octave. and that you will be able to hear.


as i said i would go with a ported box. basicly i would ltake a big 15" or 18" woofer, put it in as big a box as needed to get a flat low frequency response and then tune the port to around 16-17hz. i know this will most likely cause a dip in the low frequency response if you look at a range of up to 200hz or so. but as i would never go above 80hz this really shouldnt be a problem with the right driver and you would end up with a nice flat response down to the mid teens.

a thing to bare in mind with ports though is that port airspeed can be fairly high which means you get port noise. to avoid that use the general rule of thumb that your port should be around 1/3 of the size of your driver. so for an 18" woofer use a (roughly) 6" port. and again dont go cheap. buy the nice trumpet shaped ports which drastically decrease port noise. also, since ports are usually just plastic tupes they sometimes have a nasty tendency to vibrate. you can eleminate this by covering the outside of the tupe in auto-style adhesive bitumen pads. this will further reduce port noise.


a few final notes on enclosures. first of all make sure it's sealed. and i do mean perfectly sealed. if not then the whole port idea goes south in a bad way and the result will be high frequency whistles from false air being moved rapidly through any gaps instead of a nice deep solid bass.

get some silicone gel type sealant that stays semi-squishy when dried. that will allow for a tight seal even though the wood works a little.

most people dont realise this, but in a ported inclosure the box is actually accousticly sealed above the tuning frequency.


also make sure you dampen it right. a good dampened sub will provide a solid bass without constantly calling attention to itself. personally i'm a fan of the accoustilux type foam that you use to line the speaker with. a good rule of thumb is that when finished if you yell into the box and it sounds like you're standing in your local bedroom store's duvet department then you're in business.


hehe this post ended up being a wee bit longer than i had in mind. but i think i got all the bases covered.


good luck


----------



## Clarence

Whew... good info, but I ended up taking the easy way out and bought a 15" powered Cerwin Vega sub to supplement the JBL 10".


----------



## Zordrack

*LOL* that's another way of doing it but not nearly as much fun


----------



## Z-Photo

Clarence,


I did not see an ice maker in the bar/theater plans.


----------



## Clarence

When I want ice, I stick a bottle of Sierra Nevada in the freezer for 30 minutes.


----------



## Z-Photo

Thats not ice its yellow snow.


BTW - plans look great - tell me when you are done and I will plan a visit...




My wifes rich uncle has a little personal ice maker in their 7 mil "lake" house - coolest damn thing....


----------



## Clarence

Tell you when I'm done, then you'll come visit?!


Ha... grab your damn hammer and come visit BEFORE it's finished!


----------



## Clarence

We officially started construction on my Home Theater last weekend!


Here's day 0 (before)...
http://tinypic.com/na0au 


a view from the back row:
http://tinypic.com/nalaf 


The plan:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht42.gif


----------



## Clarence

Day 1.


Framing:
http://tinypic.com/na0rd 


And a new entry:
http://tinypic.com/na0eg 


We're going out of town for Thanksgiving, so Day 2 will be in December.


----------



## Semisentient

I hope you are going to do something with the white plastic walls.


They're gonna kill your CR...


----------



## Clarence

Nope... my psychiatrist insists that I keep padded walls 


I'll ask him if it's ok to cover them with Linacoustic and GoM.


----------



## Zolzar

Lookin' real good Clarence! Gotta' love the "walk-in" basement. I know I love mine.


John


----------



## armstrr

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*Nope... my psychiatrist insists that I keep padded walls 


I'll ask him if it's ok to cover them with Linacoustic and GoM.*
request denied, that'll be $125, please


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Zolzar_
*Lookin' real good Clarence! Gotta' love the "walk-in" basement. I know I love mine.


John*
Interesting... we've always called it a "walk-out" basement, instead of "walk-in", but yep, it's great. Our property slopes back, so you walk in on the main level and there are no windows on the front half of the basement (which is ideal for my HT!).


But on the back half of the basement, we get full-size 64" tall windows and a "walk-out" door to the backyard, as opposed to having to "walk-up" steps to climb out of the basement into the backyard, like some other houses in our neighborhood.


----------



## overclkr

Clarence,


Very nice big dog. Looks like you will have a winner on your hands :^)


Now, put those left over Marquee's in my hands ok? :^)


I'm actually in the same dilema right now. Taking out some home equity to finish my basement and trying to decide how I will do it. I will post pics of my current setup for you to check out.


Maybe you can throw in a few suggestions for me!!


Talk to ya,


Cliff


----------



## Z-Photo

My HT/Photo studio only took one loan and 10 stiches to finish. 


Looks great Clarence.


Tell me when you finish the bar so I can "test" it out.


Pete


----------



## Tedd

Holy Moly Clarence! Last I saw this thread, you were back to the original room orientation and and the Mrs had rejected the new door location.... I guess I lost my thread subscription.


It looks quite nice. So is there a large Torus screen going in that room?


----------



## Larry Fine

I guess we (Okay, Clarence) talked the Mrs. to see it our (okay, his) way.


She was impressed when she came in through the new doorway.


December it is, Clarence. A Happy Turkey Day to the family.


Oh, what the hell! Happy Thanksgiving Day wishes to one and all!


----------



## Clarence

Yeah, the previous design with screen on the back wall was too constricting... especially with the circuit-breaker panel being back there. By time I left room on the sides for speakers, even a 8'w screen would be a tight fit on a 10' wall.


I was changing my mind every time I looked at the plan, so Larry came over, I changed my mind one more time and we started punching holes in walls and framing new walls, so I'm pretty sure I'm sticking to the plan above.


No torus screen initially. In fact, I'm not even sure what I'm doing for a screen yet. I think I'm going to stick with painted drywall for now. I've tried a couple of different screen materials, but wasn't blown away.


I'm doing the carpeting wall-to-wall, then building the proscenium (if any) and the riser on top, so everything can be easily reconfigured if needed. My wife keeps trying to nix the stage under my screen. She thinks with 20 neighborhood kids visiting our house every week, the stage will be a magnet for kids jumping around infront of and into my screen.


We nixed the bar sink too. I've got to keep the space in front of the breaker box unobstructed. My wife suggested doing a wrap-around of the bar in the back corner...


I updated the visio. Version 54:
http://tinypic.com/nbewo 


Larry's fun to work with and learn from. He's got the knack for doing things right and is always thinking 2 chess moves ahead.


----------



## armstrr

don't know if you'll want that sub right in front of your av stack...maybe uner the bartop???


----------



## Clarence

What are the concerns with it being in front of the recessed A/V rack? The DVD player and amp will be 4'-5' high... the sub is only 2' tall.


I don't want to put it under the bartop, because the current plan is to build that bar as a half wall.


I was also thinking about putting that 15" sub in the upper-right corner (by the arrow that says "removed original door".


I've also got a smaller 10" sub in the upper-left side.


----------



## armstrr

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*What are the concerns with it being in front of the recessed A/V rack? The DVD player and amp will be 4'-5' high... the sub is only 2' tall.
*
depending on how bass crazy you get, the disc transports could skip...that's all. I'm sure a purest audiophile would give more (or less relevant) reasons.


----------



## Clarence

I don't think it'll be a problem... It won't share any connecting surfaces other than the concrete slab. The DVD player will also be recessed behind a wall.


When I moved my equipment out of the HT for construction, I moved the big sub and big amp to our RPTV. The Momitsu is in a wall console closer to the 15" sub than it will be in the HT plan and even with the bass thumping at foolish levels, I've never had a skip on the DVD.


----------



## armstrr

cool. So...New Year's Eve HT meet and greet at Clarence's place? BYOH (bring your own hammer)


----------



## Belcherwm

Clarence,


Looks great. You're going to have fun putting that together. Let me know if I can give you a hand some weekend. Winter is great for working on the HT.


11-0 is sweet, but I think 13-0 will be even sweeter! Go Tigers!


----------



## Clarence

Thanks Bill... I'll let you know when we schedule day 2 and beyond. The next weekend will hopefully be finishing framing, boxing the joist recess, electrical/lighting, wiring conduits, and HVAC ducting. Then when we get to the point of hanging drywall, I'm sure another set of hands will be very useful. Also, do you have experience with Linacoustic and GoM?


RE: AU/UA... The first half was painful to watch. It was almost laughable because nothing was going right. The field goal attempt bouncing off the goal post was the perfect ending for that half. We could've (and probably should've) been down 21-0... the D definitely did their share. But just like the LSU game, I don't think a single player or fan gave up hope... we knew the Tigers eventually get in the groove. I wasn't as concerned about the final outcome as much as I was concerned about not gaining ballots in the polls. Wegl, wegl, WDE. ('89CPE)

http://tinypic.com/nbewo


----------



## Larry Fine

Hey, Clarence. The drywall won't be ann issue. We'll rent a panel lift. I've used them many times. Between a lift and a drywall sander system, drywalling is almost a pleasure.


A couple of thoughts:


The sink is still do-able, especially if we rotate it to back up to the tub.


How about using the under-the-stairs space as an infinite-baffle chamber?


----------



## Z-Photo

Larry,


If you actually "like" (gasp) drywall then I am starting to worry about you. 


I hated it - but I also highly recommend the panel lift - I rented mine from Homie Despot.


But after 1000sqft it gets old fast -


- plus I had more freaky angles (attic) than Michael Jackson.


Pete


----------



## Clarence

I think the sink is more of an issue where the risk of kids messing in it exceeds the amount that we would ever really use it.


I though about trying IB (in addition to the space under the stairs, I considered the A/V equipment room), but I ended up just buying that 15" powered sub.


In the space under the stairs, I was concerned with whether I could contain the bass from the rest of the house.


On a related note, I'm thinking about building something like this up in the joists above each heat/AC register in the HT:

http://tinypic.com/ndo2g


----------



## pcgeek

Let me know when you get around to doing the drywall and you're welcome to just borrow my Panel lift. I ended up just purchasing a new one when I did my basement so I could have the luxury to take as long as I wanted to get it done 


As far as baffled box goes, HVAC isn't my strong suit but I'd be concerned about using MDF in there. Could be baseless but I'd worry about condensation destroying the MDF.


----------



## Clarence

Thanks Pat... I'll take you up on that panel lift.


Do you think plywood or 1"x8" or 1x10's would be better than MDF for the baffled duct boxes?


----------



## Larry Fine

Well, Pete, I do enjoy drywll work to a degree, and mudding is enough of an art that doing it well makes it interesting. I don't love doing it, but I don't hate it, either. I guess some worry is in order.


Clarence, I understand about the sink. It is, of course, up to you.


I was thinking about the ducting issue last night, and I believe that tying into the main trunk, either in the utility room or in the den soffit (like we originally discussed) would be better. Also, a return tie-in would be a good idea.


PC, that's very magnanimous of you. I'm sure Clarence will agree and accept your offer.


----------



## pcgeek

Whatever your base material is you may need to cover it with sheet metal. I don't think any wood product will do well inside ductwork. Do you have permits pulled and need to get it all inspected? If not then you may have a little more leeway and it's up to your comfort zone (until you sell the house). If you are getting permits pulled then I have no idea what the inspector will let you do (I had to build a box to handle a wicked 90 degree turn that ductwork couldn't and I had to build it out of the sheetmetal used for ducting to get it to pass).


----------



## Larry Fine

I am experienced with ductwork, and plan to use the real stuff.


----------



## Larry Fine

Quote:

_Originally posted by randosel_
*Putting up lots of drywall is very zen! *
Well, zen we should have a lot of fun.


----------



## Briands

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*Thanks Pat... I'll take you up on that panel lift.


Do you think plywood or 1"x8" or 1x10's would be better than MDF for the baffled duct boxes?*
I'm not Pat, but I'd recommend fiberglass duct board like this 


That should really soak up a lot of sound.


----------



## Clarence

Larry came up for another productive weekend...

*Day 2* (well, Evening 2 actually):

- Finished framing the perimeter walls.

- Built a new wall for the 8'x9' equipment room with recessed A/V rack.

- Shopping spree at Home Depot for lumber, HVAC, and electrical supplies.










*Day 3*:

- Removed 3' of a floor joist and installed double-joist supports with double 2"x12" side braces on joist hangers for recessed hushbox.

- Re-routed existing electrical wiring to clear the recessed box space.

- Wired recessed lighting (4 remote lighting zones: front, rear, sconces, rope lighting in crown moulding)

- Wired light and switch for storage space under stairs.











Next steps:

- Wire outlets and sconces.

- Install HVAC registers.

- A/V conduit and pulled-exhaust for hush-box ventilation.

- Soffits.

- drywall


Thanks Larry!

 

day2and3.zip 298.26171875k . file


----------



## cmjohnson

I wish I'd seen this a long time ago, Clarence.


I'd have suggested that you give serious consideration to building a dedicated

equipment room onto the theater. It would occupy the 16'4 x 7'8 corner at the lower left of your most recent published diagram.


I'd want to have a dedicated equipment/storage room next to the theater for

a number of reasons.


One, it'd be where the dedicated air conditioning system for the theater

would be located.


Two, it allows all the racks and most of the gear to be inside that room

where they're safe and also in their own isolated environment. There are

advantages to cooling the electronics separately from the place where the

people are going to be.


Three, you can store extra tables, chairs, etc in there, including extra supplies

for the bar.



And it's a nice place to park your AmPro light valve projectors when you're

not actively playing with them!


CJ


----------



## Larry Fine

CJ, that 16'4" x 7'8" corner is filled with dirt. It's outside the basement foundation, and under the garage (which is slab-on-earth). The 9'4" x 7'8" area in the lower right corner is the room of which you speak.


"All the racks" will be holding the receiver and DVD player (see "momitsu" in diagram), and maybe a cable or satellite box, some day. It will indeed be set into the wall of the equipment room, and open on the back.


There will be a bit of storage space under the stairs; a previously-closed-off area we'll be making accessible with a bi-fold door in the new entryway, and have already illuminated with a switch and fixture.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Larry Fine_

CJ, that 16'4" x 7'8" corner is filled with dirt.
I like CJ's suggestion...

Larry, can we add excavation to Day 4?

I already have a couple of shovels.


----------



## Larry Fine

Clarence, I plan on being sick when digging-time comes. Let me know when you're done, and I'll be feeling better.


----------



## cmjohnson

Sorry, I wasn't feeling up to reading through 26 pages to pick up on that little

detail. I'd never even seen this thread before last night.


CJ


----------



## garyfritz

Quote:

Removed 3' of a floor joist and installed double-joist supports with double 2"x12" side braces on joist hangers for recessed hushbox.
Great idea. Wish I'd thought of / had WAF to do that. I don't *quite* bonk my head on the projector (I'm 6'4") but once I wrap a hushbox around it, it'll be major head-bash city...


----------



## kal

I agree Gary... That's the first thing I noticed too. That double 2"x12" side brace idea is a great one... so this doesn't go against building code in most areas? very nifty indeed, and a welcome relief for the somewhat tall E-home Marquee.


Kal


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by kal_
*I agree Gary... That's the first thing I noticed too. That double 2"x12" side brace idea is a great one... so this doesn't go against building code in most areas? very nifty indeed, and a welcome relief for the somewhat tall E-home Marquee.


Kal*
While it's a good idea, since the projector mount will be up against the sub-floor, how will it be mounted.....with running a lag bolt up through the floor?


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by techman707_
*While it's a good idea, since the projector mount will be up against the sub-floor, how will it be mounted.....with running a lag bolt up through the floor?*
With 2 capped iron pipes running through the cross braces. I've got (4) 2000#-rated shackle doohickeys which will then connect to the eyebolts on the Marquee.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*With 2 capped iron pipes running through the cross braces. I've got (4) 2000#-rated shackle doohickeys which will then connect to the eyebolts on the Marquee.*
Sounds good Clarence, post pix when you put it in.


----------



## pcgeek

Are you going to run the ducting for the hushbox through any of those braces or is it going to drop below the ceiling? If it stays in the ceiling, are you going to be able to cut a pair of 4 or 6 inch holes and still maintain structural integrity?


----------



## Larry Fine

Clarence, if I may...


PC, we're most likely going to use a small in-line (or end-of-run) fan with a 3" bath-fan-type flex hose leaving the box to the side. A 3" hole won't weaken a double-2x12 header enough to be a concern.


I'm considering suggesting using the 2" (or so) PVC conduit we'll be installing for cable runs as a ventilation tube as well. It would require a box of some sort that allows the cables to escape ahead of the fan.


The "shacke doohickeys" aren actually clevis-and-pin "doohickeys" that just fit the pipes, and the screw-in pins will thread through the eye-bolts that screw into the Marquee bolt-holes. They look like this:

http://www.apachesales.com/products/94614.gif


----------



## Z-Photo

Larry,


How would you lock the clevis onto the rod so that the pj stays in one place? I would think that they would be prone to slide a bit.


Pete


Can't wait to see the finished product. So you guys need to quit slacking off - get to work.


----------



## Larry Fine

Pete, the rods will run side-to-side, so unless we drill the holes severely unevenly, the friction from the projector's weight alone should preclude any sliding. In any case, sideways movement won't change focus, etc.


In case anyone wonders, the pipe ends will be capped just outside the side framing, so the pipes can't fall out from sideways movement. The PJ will be slid to one side at a time for fastening, and then centered afterward.


----------



## garyfritz

Larry, I'm real glad to hear you guys (who know what you're doing a helluva lot better than I do) are planning on using a 3" bathroom fan & 3" flex hose. I was panicking that the 3" flex I'd built into the ceiling wasn't going to permit enough airflow, especially given the length of the run. The fan will be in another room with about a 20' run.


I just cobbled up a cardboard-box mount for the fan and ran a test. The hose filled a dry-cleaning bag (about 16" diameter, 3' long) in about 9 sec. That's roughly 28 CFM. Think that will be enough to keep the projector cool? The hushbox will be about 34x40x17 or 13.4 ft^3, so I'll be totally replacing the air every 30 seconds or so. Which seems like a real improvement over having the PJ sit in its own hot air pooling on the ceiling. Best of all, it's absolutely silent. 


If 30 CFM isn't enough, I could probably use a bigger fan. This is a 70 CFM fan so I'm losing about 60% to the hose. If I cough up $60 for a fan I could get 180 CFM, which would hopefully give me 70 CFM at the projector, exchanging air every 11 seconds. But I think you'd start to get wind whistling around the lenses then!


How much is necessary?? How quickly must the air be exchanged in the hushbox? This is an NEC XG852 that draws 6.7A.


Gary


----------



## kal

Gary: I'd use a bigger fan if you could. You lose CFM to the 3" flex hosefor 3 reasons: diameter, length, # of turns. You lose a bit too because it's not completely flat on the inside. If you can, use round metal ducts as much as possible, and then use pieces of flex at the very ends where you can't use solid pieces (this is what I did). I'll help reduce the loses.


28CFM really doesn't seem like much. The projector's fans probably push warm air out of the projector at more then 28CFM, so you'll most likely be fighting a losing battle.


Kal


----------



## garyfritz

I know the 3" flexi isn't ideal, but it's built into the walls now. Too late to do it right. But I was pleased that 40% of the airflow made it through the long run.


You might be right that the projector pushes more than 28CFM out. On the other hand, right now it pushes it out onto the ceiling where it stays & gets recycled through the projector again, as opposed to having cool air coming in and the hot air being removed to another room. I really need to build the box and test it, I suppose.


----------



## kal

Yep. Testing's the best idea! Stick a stove temp probe in there now and see what the temp is after af a few hours of running movies. Then throw the hushbox up and do the same.


I'd test many points before and after just to be safe: Air in the box, heat sinks, air coming out of the fans, etc.


Ideally it shouldn't be any warmer with the box, or maybe just a few degrees.


Kal


----------



## Z-Photo

That works


Side to side - that would answer the problems of focus. - You could just put in blocks or mark the approx location.


Guys,


If you can have the flex go up (heat rises) that would provide an additional benefit.


----------



## Larry Fine

In this case, up would create a very strange bulge in the dining-room floor. The exhaust tube, whatever it ends up being, will exit sideways, but will be against the top of the chamber.


Plus, we never said we'd use a bath fan, just that type of tubing. Most likely, we will indeed use plain smooth pipe for the straight sections, and elbows in the turns, and flex only where needed.


A "real" in-line exhaust fan flows more air than a cheap bathroom-ceiling type, as they're often used for more than one bathroom, such as a house or a commercial environment.


Danke, Kal et al.


----------



## garyfritz

Hm. "Real" in-line exhaust fans tend to go for $120 or more. I'm trying to keep this project a bit cheaper than that. I'm going to have to test the 70cfm fan I have to see if it does a decent job of keeping the temp down. If not, then I'll have to go with a bigger & more expensive fan.


----------



## kal

Good (quiet) bathroom ceiling fans also go for about $100+ with the quiet high CFM ones getting up to the $200 price range.


Nutone makes a bunch of quality ceiling fans that are quiet.


I agree that the inline versions tend to move more air. But they're usually noisier since they're meant to be stuck up in an attic or somewhere remote so noise reduction's not an issue. If you can afford one and have somewhere remote (like an attic) to stick it, by all means go inline. I used a 110CFM ultra-quiet Nutone ceiling fan myself since I didn't have anywhere too remote I could stick an inline fan. (The nutone inline's were also x2 the price!).


If you use an inline fan, make sure to use some flexible tubing right before & after the fan to reduce the amount of vibrations that travel down the solid pipe.


----------



## garyfritz

I'll end up going with a $60 180CFM Nutone ceiling fan if I need it, but I'd like to go with my cheapie 3" fan if it'll do the trick. If so, I can bring this hushbox project in under $75 or so.


FWIW I did the baseline test. I stuck a remote thermometer inside the tube cavity of the XG, and also checked the temp on the ceiling above the projector. With just me in the room, no furnace running, and the door open most of the time, the ceiling rapidly got up to 85deg. The inside of the pj was about 120-125 F. Pretty toasty. With more people, furnace running (it's a straight 10' shot to the furnace and it's hard to block the airflow until I stuff something in the vent), and the door closed, I'm sure it gets a lot hotter than that. (Which is why the pj overheated and shut down the night of my grand premiere! ) Even 30CFM is bound to be an improvement over that. Now I just gotta get the box built to see how it does with the fan.


Noise isn't much of a concern for my application. There are 2 walls between the HT and the fan, and the hose is all flex so there's no vibration or echoing. The cheap 3" fan isn't all that quiet but you can't hear it at all in the HT.


----------



## kal

Good god Gary! I hate to say it, but you're absolutely frying your PJ! Yes, 30CFM is an improvement, but that's like giving someone a choice between frying at 300 degrees or 400 degrees. Both are going to kill you, it's just a question of how long! 


Heat is the #1 enemy of electronics. The higher the temp, the shorter your stuff will last. It's that simple. Don't just aim for enough cooling to not have the thing shut down - aim for as low a temp as possible. It'll add years to your PJ.


Kal


----------



## garyfritz

Yes, I know the heat is bad for the electronics. I just haven't had a chance to do anything about it yet. The HT has only been operational for a few weeks. 


If 30CFM can drop the ambient to 75 or so, and the internal to ... I dunno, something lower... then I'll be fairly happy for now. But I don't expect the internal temps to drop to 75-80. The probe is right below the green CRT and it's *hot* in there.


What's a "reasonable" temp inside the tube cavity??


----------



## kal

Quote:

_Originally posted by garyfritz_
*What's a "reasonable" temp inside the tube cavity??*
Good question! Run the thing floor mounted without any sort of hushbox or cover. That should be the temp you strive for. With enough air being pushed through the case, the ambient air temp in the case shouldn't be that much higher then the outside ambient temp.


Kal


----------



## garyfritz

I'll buy the bigger fan before I drop & remount the beast.  And probably I should test another area inside the case -- around the electronics instead of right beside the tubes. Those things generate incredible heat. I doubt the fans push enough air through to keep the temps around the tubes anywhere close to outside ambient, no matter how cool it is outside. I suspect the ~45deg ambient-to-inside difference I saw would hold even if the ambient was 65deg.


And now I should probably quit hijacking Clarence's thread.  Sorry guys, didn't intend to derail it like this...


----------



## Marshall F

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*After living with this generic 8'w pull-down salvaged from work for the last couple of months, I'm now content to just use something like Da-Lite Video Spectra 1.5 or their Pearlescent 1.5 material.


It seems odd that the pull-down screens are cheaper than just the material by the sq foot. The sane sizes (e.g. 72" to 96" wide) are very reasonably priced ($100-$250), but at 9' and 10' they start to add up.


But something like this is practical...
Da-lite Model C Screen - 8 x 10' - 154" Diagonal - Video Spectra - 1.5 gain 

But I'll probably pull the material off the roller and tension it to a fixed frame, so I don't have to worry about waves and ripples.

I'll build the frame and experiment with plain blackout cloth and then shop for the 1.5 gain material by the sq foot.


10' wide means 7.5'h for 4:3 and then I can mask down to 16:9 or wider.

So 75 sq ft at $4.74 for the material (just ballpark prices from here ).


For masking, I already have some really effective black velour screen drapes. The top and sides will be fixed. The bottom will probably just be manually raised/lowered with a pulley.



-Clarence*
Clarence,


What's the latest on the screen? I read that the Video spectra and pearlescent were exactly the same material, except the VS has rubber backing for use in a roll down:


************************
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...14#post4803014 


"The problem is waves. VS is only available in pull-down screens. Waves WILL become a problem and WILL drive you nuts, make no mistake about it. Therefore I recommend the tensioned version of the Video Spectra, which is called "Pearlescent". This is exactly the same material but without the rubber backing. Pearlescent is flexible and is used in tensioned electric and fixed frame screens. I'd go that route if I had to do it over again. "

**************

Has anyone tried using the VS material and mounting it to a frame? I was wondering if the added backing was a hindrance in the mounting process.


You are correct in that the material is pretty affordable if purchased as a pull down model.


----------



## garyfritz

Short note: kal, FWIW I tried moving the temp probe to the card cage. With the cover on, and ambient temp of 83 degF, the internal temp around the electronics was 110 F. Still toasty but not quite as bad. Hotter than I expected, though.


Hopefully with 30 or 60 CFM of hot air being sucked out of the room, the ambient will stay around 70, and the internal should drop to 100 or below.


----------



## Toeside

Clarence,


Great thread. It was interesting to see how the room changed with each revision. RP sounded like a cool idea, but as it was mentioned, the space required for the RP setup is a high price to pay.


I'm also in the process of creating a room--though it won't be truly dedicated, or setup like a lot of the home theatres members have.


Here's the discussion about
my media room thread .


Any more progress on yours?



Craig


----------



## techman707

Clarence,


RP is for "Girymen", real men don't do RP. If you want RP, buy a Pioneer RP TV.


Good Luck with your new HT!


Bruce


----------



## Clarence

I'd still go with RP if I had 8'-10' more depth in my HT... hiding the projector behind the screen, not obstructing the lines of sightm easier access to the equipment and cabling, zero angle setup for no keystoning, being able to have ambient light in the seating area... all good stuff... I never saw anything girly about it.


We're stuck in the middle of electrical now. But after another weekend of that, the drywall should really make it look like a HT.


----------



## lovebohn

Clarence,


How tall is your ceiling? Will you have any problems with the projector being recessed to much and keystone adjustment problems or projector/screen angles to large? Will the top of your screen run near the ceiling? I like the setup for my future plans but want to make sure it will work. Thanks.


Dave


----------



## GScott

Quote:

_Originally posted by garyfritz_
*What's a "reasonable" temp inside the tube cavity??*
My XG was ceiling mounted in a basement with no hush box and it averaged about 108 degrees in the tube cavity. The temp varied a few degrees depending on the temp of the room but I don't think it ever got above 110-111 degrees.


----------



## garyfritz

Hm. I put a probe up by the STK chip between the R & G tubes, and it ran 125F with no exhaust fan. The hushbox was still there but only on the sides -- the bottom was open. With an overkill fan pulling air through the chassis it still ran at 99F.


----------



## Brian Hampton

Clarence,


Nice to hear about you progress. I've got the drywall in the basement at my place and I'm working on insulation currently. Maybe we'll finish roughly at the same time.


-Brian


----------



## Clarence

Constant travel the last 2 months and bad winter weather the last 2 weekends, so we haven't made any progress since weekend #2.


But in the HT Builder forum, reaper made this cool rendering of my theater floorplan...

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501/2740ClarenceT2.jpg 


Way cool!


Rendering will be really handy for visualizing potential color schemes. Cheaper and easier than buying a few yards of GoM to see how it'll look.


Check out reaper's http://gallery.avsforum.com/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=2740 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/gallery4.gif with renderings of his HT.


----------



## Brian Hampton

That is really neat. Off hand the ceiling looks too bright but the lights are on. Shouldn't the PJ be seen in that view?


=Brian


p.s. I haven't really gotten anywhere with my HT either. Winter with a 4 year old and a 2 year old is a lot more work here in NH then it was in Califonia. (But, I wouldn't be owning a home in California so HT wasn't even an option.)


----------



## Clarence

Yeah, the ceiling and carpet will be flat black, and so will the screen wall, but I don't want reaper to change it in the render, otherwise everything will be as dark as the black chairs on the black riser in front of the black GoM... if you want to see what that render would look like, squeeze your eyes real tight.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Shouldn't the PJ be seen in that view?
Yep... reaper updated it yesterday:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501...enceT1Proj.jpg 


And Scott Jelsma, another forum member in the HT Builder forum, made a walkthrough movie from my floorplan...


This thumbnail links to the 21Mb AVI:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-walk.avi http://herndonrelay.org/avs/walkthrough.gif 


He used different colors so they'd show up better than my black GoM and black granite, but it really depicts the space accurately.


Thanks Scott!


----------



## Tedd

I laughed when I saw Clarence's silhouette. Nice personal touch there 


Seems to me, renderings and/or an avi might just make for a great "spousal approval" tool.


----------



## bomber

Question('s) for Clarence or Larry,


A few hundred posts back in this thread you had a pic of the new theater being built, you had removed a section of the floor joist so you could mount the PJ higher in the ceiling cavity. It looks like you sistered some dimensional 2x12 to the existing joists on each side of the cut joist, then supported the cut joist with additional 2x12 attached to each joist on the side of the cut joist to form a box, more or less, which transfers the load to the adjacent joists.


Q1, The 2 2x12's that you sistered to the adjacent joists, are they structural and span from bearing point to bearing point? Or are they just used to give you a place to attach joist hangers since you have engineered joists existing?


Q2, What is above this area, upstairs floor? Did you have to beef-up the section of floor from underneath now that you have a section of floor that spans 48"?


The plans look great, can't wait to see the finished room,


Dave


----------



## Zolzar

Lookin' Real Good!!!!!


John


----------



## Larry Fine

Quote:

_Originally posted by Tedd_
*I laughed when I saw Clarence's silhouette.*
And I laughed when I saw the equipment stack in the wall!


----------



## Larry Fine

Quote:

_Originally posted by bomber_
*Q1, The 2 2x12's that you sistered to the adjacent joists, are they structural and span from bearing point to bearing point? Or are they just used to give you a place to attach joist hangers since you have engineered joists existing?*
While even unsupported sistering would add stiffness, we chose to make them bearing. They both went inside the existing joists because we had the space; if we needed more, we could have placed them away from each other.


Correction: the nearer joist pair was already there; it is part of the stairway opening. We only added the far one. (I don't know why I didn't remember that right away.) The "we could have placed it farther away" still applies.


If you look right by my hands (yes, that's me with the nailer), you can see one end of one new joist atop the wall:


Another correction: I'm not nailing, I'm feeding a cable through a joist behind a recessed can.

http://fineelectricco.com/Ceiling9.jpg 

Quote:

*Q2, What is above this area, upstairs floor? Did you have to beef-up the section of floor from underneath now that you have a section of floor that spans 48"?*
The dining room is above this space. No, we felt that, between the plywood subfloor and the hardwood floor above, there wouldn't be a discernable soft spot.


Besides, the span is closer to three feet the other way (the picture distorts the perspective); just enough to clear the PJ's width and a couple of inches for space to reach the hardware, one side at a time.


A cross-piece could always be added later if desired. All it would take is a 2x4 and a couple of hangers.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

A cross-piece could always be added later if desired. All it would take is a 2x4 and a couple of hangers.
In fact, I already bought the 2x4's and hangers, just to over-engineer it. I also plan on putting a sheet of sound board up there, too.


I don't need the full height of the joist... at most I think 6" of it... the Marquee lenses need to peek out from below the ceiling sheetrock.

Quote:

I laughed when I saw Clarence's silhouette. Nice personal touch there
That's actually Millsy from Australia and Nemo on his 15' screen with a 1292. My foolish screenshots were only 12' wide.


----------



## Larry Fine

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*In fact, I already bought the 2x4's and hangers, just to over-engineer it. I also plan on putting a sheet of sound board up there, too.*
Gee, I wish I had thought of it. 
Quote:

*I don't need the full height of the joist... at most I think 6" of it... the Marquee lenses need to peek out from below the ceiling sheetrock.*
In that case, two 2x4's would give the box's "ceiling" a more-stable and larger attachment area. Maybe even do a perimeter, and then the center piece.


----------



## bomber

Clarence,


I was also thinking of adding another layer of 3/4 ply to the underside of the floor, glued and screwed the existing subfloor, then add cleats around the perimiter screwed to the ply and the joists. The area above my PJ will be in the kitchen, while I am planning on hardwood, I might have to go with ceramic tile if that is all the budget allows. Stiffness of that area would then be a concern for me. Adding the 2x4 is also a great idea.


Are you planning on building a hushbox to cover the part of the ehome that is poking out? If so have you thought of any ideas on how your are going to run the ducting for remote exhaust or intake? I'll have to go home and measure my 8000 to see how much I can hide in the floor cavity, but I remember seeing a pic on this forum of someone who did something similar and basically the hushbox looked like a wedge, with the back almost flush with the ceiling and the front just had the lenses poking out. Looked really nice and the WAF would be really high.


Dave


----------



## Clarence

Yep, look way back at post #387 of this thread...

http://www.blarg.net/~sesmith/index_...Hush%20Box.jpg


----------



## Clarence

Some updates to reaper's rendering of my HT...

- new fabric pattern on wall (bottom is still black GoM)

- black carpet

- screenshot


----------



## raster

looks nice bud! way to go.


----------



## Clarence

Lot's of progress the last 2 weeks.


Some minor updates to the floorplan:
http://img59.exs.cx/img59/9518/ht551ly.gif 


And the simplified plan for permit/inspection:
http://img109.exs.cx/img109/6301/ht56elec5fn.gif 


Updated photos coming soon... I lugged the seats in there and rigged up a bar to get a feel for it. I can't wait! Getting close... Drywall starts as soon as the electrical inspection is complete.


----------



## Z-Photo

Inspection????


Clarence did you actually get permits???


I got the Barco up tonight.


Sure wish that you had gotten me hooked on the HT before I finished the upstairs!!!!!


Pete


Watch Out - Raster likes you now. Sorry


----------



## Clarence

Yep, now that I have the "design" planned out, I figured I should be a good citizen and let "the man" poke around. As if last week's re-assessments weren't high enough. 25% higher than last year


----------



## Belcherwm

Looks good Clarence.


I've had my assessment dropped the last two out of three years in Loudoun. Going after them again this year.


----------



## Clarence

Hi Bill.


I can't complain too much about the assessment because our exact same house sold a block away for 50% more than we paid last year. This county is ridiculous.


I borrowed the drywall lift tonight (thanks bigmouth!). But I've got a dozen neighbors begging to help (wonder if that's got anything to do with my pile of extra projectors?), so I won't drag you into the (drywall) mud 


But plan on coming by with the kids in a month or so for a movie!


----------



## Clarence

I finished up a few loose ends today... I dragged the seats in just to test the spacing.


My safe'n'sound door arrived today. And I got the call that my re-upholstered seats are done (frames and cupholders painted black).

The 2nd row seat fabric matches the wall fabric:
http://img203.exs.cx/img203/9276/fabric3sz.jpg 

With Black GoM on bottom.


Inspection will be Monday. Hopefully I can start drywalling soon...

http://img92.exs.cx/img92/9601/march1213ne.jpg 

http://img92.exs.cx/img92/7707/march1228jo.jpg 

http://img92.exs.cx/img92/3709/march1239zt.jpg 

http://img92.exs.cx/img92/2765/march1249fq.jpg


----------



## plain fan

Looking very good.


----------



## Clarence

today:
http://img92.exs.cx/img92/2765/march1249fq.jpg 


vs. reaper's render from a couple of months ago...
http://tinypic.com/1jqfdy 


Getting closer!


The plan is still holding up...
http://img59.exs.cx/img59/9518/ht551ly.gif


----------



## kkanizar

Clarence,


What part of NOVA are you from? I'm just down the road in Prince William county? Who was the home builder? Looking great so far!


Kevin


----------



## Clarence

Hi Kevin-


I'm in Loudoun. It's a Richmond American home.


----------



## Brian Hampton

Clarence,


You're gonna paint those theater chairs right?


What's your plan for cutting out the holes for the sconces? I put the threaded rod that goes in the center and held up the drywall and that left a small circle in the back face then I used CD to trace a cut out. A spare box would have made a perfect fit though. Mine doesn't show through when the sconces are installed anyway.


I couldn't work out a date with my buddy with the drywall lift and just made a brace out of 2x4's and installed the drywall ceiling alone. That was some crazy day.


My inspection was very fast and easy. The guy basically looked around and then said to call him back in when it was done so he could adjust the finished sq foot figures of the house. I hope yours goes well too.


-Brian


p.s. I set a date to finish by at Memorial Day Weekend (May 27.) With an actual date it's easier to procrastinate less. At best I have 2 hours a day to work on this but that's after the kids are asleep and I'm often much too tired for 2 hours. So,.. I figure I've maybe got a little over 100 hours to get it done.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Brian Hampton_

You're gonna paint those theater chairs right?
yep... see above... "re-upholstered seats are done (frames and cupholders painted black)." I've got the rustoleum plastic paint, I just need to wait for a day above 50 degrees.
Quote:

What's your plan for cutting out the holes for the sconces? I put the threaded rod that goes in the center and held up the drywall and that left a small circle in the back face then I used CD to trace a cut out. A spare box would have made a perfect fit though.
I'll have to search for more tips... I've got 14g in-wall speaker wire run, too. Right now it's run to outlet boxes, but I'm not going to cut out the boxes in the drywall, just a caulked hole.


----------



## Art Sonneborn

I bet putting the seats in ( even just to check spacing) brought a little excitement. I sat on a pillow and a bucket of drywall mud and starred at the painted screen wall frame one time !


----------



## pwentz3l

I envy those of you with a newer home. My 1912 home is awesome, but I probably did just as much retrofit as I did actual construction. I spent entire weekends working and ended up right where I started functionality wise, everything being up to code the only difference.


Clarence, everything looks great.


Pete


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Yeah, just wanted to pump you up!


The other idea that I learned the hard way, is DO NOT setup *any* equipment that makes your theater usable until it is 100% done. Or it'll never get done.... 


But your plans look superb! Awesome!


----------



## Belcherwm

Clarence,


Just perusing your speaker setup. If you're putting your center above the screen you might want to make sure that your L&R are up far enough so that they aren't any more than a couple of feet lower than the CC. I've wired mine for both above and below and decided that below sounds better with my L&R towers being on the floor. Also, did you run at least one wire to the back so you can do a 6.1 setup if you chose to in the future?


----------



## Clarence

Hi Bill-


Here's where I wired speaker runs (green boxes)...

http://img83.exs.cx/img83/7530/ht55speaker9ml.gif 

I'm open to suggestions.


My front L&R will be pretty high... they're tall to start with, and they'll be on a raised proscenium platform behind GoM.


There is a 15" sub under the Right Front behind the proscenium.


The 10" sub is under the bar in the rear.


I also have 3 aura pro tactile inducers under the Berk 90's.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Wire two separate runs for the rear center. Even if you just use 6.1 there now, or wire two speakers together in parallel back there (preferred), it gives you very easy upgrade route for 7.1 channels without having to run more wire.


----------



## Clarence

That's what I tried to do, I think...


I've got wire runs in the L&R back corners AND to the rear center.


This is what I used as a guide:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_e...oomlayout.html 

http://www.dolby.com/images/consumer...nt/room_d2.gif 
Quote:

6.1 or 7.1 Setup

The most advanced home theater systems feature six (with Center Back) or seven (with Left Back/Right Back) full-range channels that allow viewers to take full advantage of Dolby Digital EX soundtracks and Dolby Pro LogicÂ® IIx matrix-surround decoding technology.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Ok, I see. Usually, the second pair of surrounds there, I assume to be wired together with the side surrounds, to help spread the effects more evenly for multiple rows (like in a movie theater, the arrays of many speakers on the side are all one channel). It looks like your corner speakers will be the SBR and SBL, and the rear center wire will be unused? I would probably mount the two SBR and SBL speakers more towards the center and not jammed in the corners, but I think you have enough wires run places.


Man, i wish I had a nice space that big!


----------



## Belcherwm

Quote:

_Originally posted by ChrisWiggles_
*Wire two separate runs for the rear center. Even if you just use 6.1 there now, or wire two speakers together in parallel back there (preferred), it gives you very easy upgrade route for 7.1 channels without having to run more wire.*
I "prefer" wiring them in series. 

I believe the recommended THX setup is two rear speakers even if you are only running 6.1.


Clarence,


Are you going to run the rear surrounds with the same signal as the side surrounds? If you are you might want to move them forward a little so they are closer to your seats and add a second speaker on the rear wall for 6.1 or 7.1.


----------



## Z-Photo

Clarence,


The speakers will sound better when the drywall is done. 


Pete


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Quote:

I believe the recommended THX setup is two rear speakers even if you are only running 6.1.
Yes, this is what I was saying was preferred.

Quote:

Are you going to run the rear surrounds with the same signal as the side surrounds? If you are you might want to move them forward a little so they are closer to your seats and add a second speaker on the rear wall for 6.1 or 7.1.
This is what I was confused about.


----------



## Clarence

OK, I moved the L&R rear surrounds to the rear wall for 7.1 and got rid of the 6.1 rear center.


I don't plan on running multiple side speakers, just one pair.

http://img16.exs.cx/img16/4651/ht55speaker7bd.gif


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Looks good!


Another thing that I maybe missed, because this thread is long and has been going for a long time, is what about acoustical treatments in the room.


This is something that will happen more after you're done with walls, etc, but any decent audio space needs to have some thought but into acoustics. Are you planning on this?


----------



## Clarence

The short answer is yes.


The projector and construction are easy compared to the acoustical planning. Most of those details have been worked out in separate threads in the HT Builder forum.


I'm doing double drywall, green glue between layers, integrity gaskets on the studs, certainteed acoustic insulation inside the studs and joists, flexiduct in the HVAC, air-tite recessed lights, acoustical sealant/caulk , safe'n'sound solid-core door, linacoustic on the lower walls, covered with GoM acoustically-transparent fire-resistant fabric.


Here's my frustrating summary of the whole "if you give a mouse a cookie" effect...


If you give your HT double-drywall, you're gonna want GG to go with it...


If you have DD+GG, you're going to need zig-zag acoustic caulk in the corners...


If you have zig-zag corners, you're gonna also need sister corner studs (wasn't that a song by _America_?) to go with it...


Once you have sister studs, you're going to need receptacle extenders too...


Now that you have extended receptacles, you're going to want putty pads or Lessco Air Tight Electrical Boxes and air-tite IC recessed lights and Casco Silent Flex HVAC ...


Now that you have air-tite IC recessed lights, you should also seal up that 3'x4' hole that you have boxed out of your joists to recess your 200 lb CRT projector ...


AAARRRGGGHH... I miss the precious time several months ago when I enjoyed watching movies in a dark unfinished basement in my Berklines with my beloved CRT hanging from chains on exposed joists. With the lights off it was a showcase theater.


----------



## cmjohnson

But when you're done, it'll be a showcase theater whether the lights are on OR off!


Progress is being made. The day when it's done will come all too quickly and then you'll realize that you forgot something.


I'm not about to run through 30 pages to pick up on one small detail, but have you provided cable raceways for the projector for the video signal

cables? And has a pull tape been installed? What cables are you using?


I've got a BIG pile of Canare video cables in up to 100 foot lengths if you need some. Found them at the local electronic recycler. Of course, I salvaged them!


CJ


----------



## Clarence

Yep, I've got a 2" conduit running from the equipment room to the recessed projector mount.


I plan on using Paul's (gn2) custom 5BNC-5BNC cables once I setup my rack and pj and measure the distance I need. MP had them at last week's gathering... nice quality.


I'm currently using some of those Canare cables that you have, probably from the same source. Good heavy stuff... almost an inch thick.


----------



## cmjohnson

What I got was all individual cables, with red, green, blue, black, and white jackets. I think they came from a company that does satellite TV broadcast operations, private channel stuff. None of this is the type that's bundled and jacketed, though I do have one of those video snakes that I've tried in my own system. It was just a bit too long at 50 feet, and I switched over to Belden 9231 in the exact 22 foot runs that are ideal for my system. That's at least as good a cable. But the Canare would be better for hooking up to the equipment in the rack as it's lighter and more supple, and with RCA connectors on it it's not going to stress the connectors on some more lightly built equipment.


That's one thing I hate...having to use adapters. The pro gear all uses BNCs and the DVD players, cable boxes, and so on all use RCAs. I keep a small box full of adapters, but that's coming to an end now. Soon everything gets custom cables with the right ends on each end. Life will be good.


CJ


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Excellent Clarence, I recall your threads in the builder forum now that you refreshed my memory. Just checkin!


----------



## Brian Hampton

Hi,


I have a question about 7.1 systems. Maybe it belongs somewhere else but since we were just on that subject here. If I have a reciever with 7.1 can I sometimes use the back channels for SACD and not use the surrounds on the sides? Seems the layout for movies and music is different in respect to the position of the surrounds but if you have the 7.1 system and you reciever knows what to do then you can have it both ways.


-Brian


----------



## MC Maniac

Brian:


7.1 is noticably superior to 5.1 for both movies and music - so not sure why you would want to turn off the sides..


But yes, depending on the capability of your receiver you should be able to assign a music and film mode depending on the source, then customize to taste..


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_

Inspection will be Monday. Hopefully I can start drywalling soon...
The electrical inspector just left... just a couple of things to fix:

- need 2 larger outlet boxes... I used the shallowest one I could find in the projector recess, but it needs to be 16 cu"; and I had 4 wires in another box, so it needs to be 22.3 cu".

- I didn't have terminating caps on the grounds in some of my receptacles

- missed a staple on one of the recessed lights.


Not too bad.


He's coming back tomorrow.


----------



## Clarence

Woo-hoo... the framing inspector just came 10 minutes after the electrical guy.


He talked 5 minutes about the house Martin Lawrence is building down the road with a full-size HT (and a basketball court with bleachers, and a 3 lane bowling alley)... he walked around and gave me the PASSED sticker.


----------



## Brian Hampton

Gosh,


That sounds like quite a house. Is Martin Lawrence a celebrity or something?


MC Maniac,


The SACD seems to have 5.1 channels of information and SACD recommends a certain layout for the speakers. (I think it's like 60 degrees for the fronts and 160 for the rears.) If there's 5.1 channels on the original mix then I think I would try to set up my system for 5.1 channels on playback. I'm kind of a purist I guess. I know people get recievers to make 7.1 out of regular stereo recordings and stuff and If I heard something like that I could have a change of heart. My goal is always to maintain the signal integrity whenever possible.


-Brian



-Brian


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Brian Hampton_

That sounds like quite a house. Is Martin Lawrence a celebrity or something?
Maybe not an "A List" celebrity, but I'd heard of him...
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001454/


----------



## MC Maniac

Quote:

_Originally posted by Brian Hampton_
*

The SACD seems to have 5.1 channels of information and SACD recommends a certain layout for the speakers. (I think it's like 60 degrees for the fronts and 160 for the rears.) If there's 5.1 channels on the original mix then I think I would try to set up my system for 5.1 channels on playback. I'm kind of a purist I guess. I know people get recievers to make 7.1 out of regular stereo recordings and stuff and If I heard something like that I could have a change of heart. My goal is always to maintain the signal integrity whenever possible.*
Well Ok..if you want to be a purist then fine - you just shortchange yourself on the experience..


Surely if a DVD has only a DD 2.0 track you don't watch these with just the L/R mains?


I have a 7.1 setup- use Logic 7 with my processor - never listen to stereo material in the HT room- L7 works the same way for 5.1 DVD and SACD - it leaves the info in the front 3 speakers alone, then splits the rear info between the sides and rears..


For DVD's this results in more accurate directional cues from movie soundtracks and for both DVD's and music - a more enveloping sound in the rear plus smoother transitions from front to rear pans and so on.. on music, it's not as good as if the recording were discrete 7.1, but it does a decent job..


Back to Clarence's room..


Great to see it taking shape..


----------



## cmjohnson

Good for you, Clarence!


It's amazing that building codes are so sticky about even the volume of an

outlet receptacle. Whose brilliant idea was that, anyway?



So I don't have to search 31 pages of this, would you remind me of what

projector you're going to be using?


I'll bet you a dollar that you'll have a better picture than Mr. Lawrence will end up with, because he's probably going to go for a Qualia or other advanced D-ILA machine. Maybe you can sell him a double stack of G90s and make a few bucks in the process? 


CJ


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

what projector you're going to be using?
M8501 with new tubes, plus a magic touch from MP


----------



## jrwhite

Clarence ...


The 1208s/2 lost the race?


Jonathan


----------



## Clarence

Not really... the 1208s/2 is still sitting at work with a toasty green tube, right next to a set of NIB LC tubes that need sent to VDC for a DMB mount swap (and right next to an Ampro 3400 with new tubes).


But I've been spending all of my attention on the HT contruction, so I still haven't initiated a Barco tube swap yet. I also have a BG808 and Ampro 3600 with worn, but not toasty 8" Greens, so I might temporarily pop one of those into the 1208s/2 until I get my new Green.


But the M8500 tubes are ready to go (once I mod the neckboard pins), so it's still what I plan on hanging on the ceiling for opening day. And I've still got my original M8000 with nice tubes, so those might be the only 2 projectors I keep.


----------



## Belcherwm

Clarence,


Here's a couple of good threads on speaker placement and adding a second rear to a 6.1 setup. . If you are thinking about wiring in series you need to throw a piece of wire in the wall between your two rear surrounds.


I guess it's a little obvious that I'm working towards going from 6.1 to 7.1 myself.


I know you have said that you've got some help already, but if you need an extra pair of hands one weekend or over spring break give me a shout.


----------



## cmjohnson

Clarence, consider stacking the 8000 and the 8500. I guarantee it'll work

just fine! What the heck...from where you're at, might as well exploit your

resources to the limit!


CJ


----------



## Clarence

Nah... no stacking for me. I'd retry blending first. But it'd probably be more practical to sell the M8500+M8000 and buy a 9500LC when the opportunity presents itself. But no more buying for a while... I'm quite excited to settle down with my M8500 for a while.


I finished the electrical inspection today, and also passed the insulation inspection which gives me approval to drywall. I passed the framing inspection yesterday.


I found it ironic that now that my insulation was inspected, I'm now installing insulation. The original builder's insulation was sufficient for code... you just need R11 on exterior walls. So I had it inspected as is and it passed. But now I'm adding CertainTeed CertaSound between the studs and joists.


I applied Integrity Gaskets to all drywall mating surfaces...

http://img65.exs.cx/img65/5889/ig3ln.jpg 


This should help decouple the vibrating drywall from the studs, reducing the transmission to other rooms.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Hey clarence, how big are your doors? Will you be able to get those recliners out someday? Maybe it sounds like a silly question, but it's always something I keep in the back of my mind.


I had a family member way back when spend years building a boat in his basement. A real big one. Very nice, hand-made wood and all. It was beautiful. Of course, then he couldn't get it out.


Just a thought...


----------



## RVonse

I love those chairs! They sure do look confortable. I'm afraid I wouldn't get much work done if I were there. Because I would be relaxing in one of those chairs instead of working on the project.


----------



## Clarence

Those Berkline 90's disassemble into two halves... the back separates easily from the base. They fit through any door wider than 28" or so.


They are comfortable! Maybe too much so... if you're tired and the movie is slow, it might become nap time.


I need a wide angle lens... they look too close to the screen, but they're really 13' back.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

That's good Clarence!, just checkin! 


I am endowed with some genes that are rife with incredible stupidity and an inane lack of common sense.


It has been a hard many years but I have learned not to touch things that logically get very hot, especially related to fire.


Such as concrete drill bits. Electric stoves. And best of all, I learned that cigarette lighters get *REALLY* hot *REALLY* fast.


Ah, the beauty of genetics.


----------



## Z-Photo

Chris - you crack me up. 


Looking good Clarence - When is the MP party planned????? I could bring the NEC with me.....


Pete


----------



## Clarence

Probably near the end of April.


I should've called you... we'll be down in your neck o' the woods for Easter after all... I'll plan on dropping off some spare theater seats for you and picking up the PG. The wife will think that's a good swap 


Gutherie's for dinner on the 22nd?


----------



## Z-Photo

Sounds like a plan - we are in town and will see you then. Guthries it is..


Hopefully I will have the P16s back and in the PJ by then..... I really should call Charlie and see when then will be done...


Pete


----------



## overclkr

Hey Clarence,


How much did those chairs set you back??


Cliff


----------



## Clarence

You know me... not much.


I found them at the local furniture store warehouse, damaged during delivery. One had a busted cross-brace in the frame, one had a busted armrest support, and one wouldn't recline. But otherwise, they were in like new condition... no scuffs. So I offered $139, $139, and $169.


A couple of 1x3's to rebuild the broken plywood frame (now stronger than the original poor design) and a 19c pin from HD for the recliner mechanism and after a couple of hours I've got a perfect front row.


They're only vinyl with manual recline. I think they usually sell for $400-$499 each. More with leather. Even more with power recline. And yet even more with buttkickers (I'm using aura pros).


But they are VERY comfortable.


----------



## overclkr

Nice score dude.....


Cliff


----------



## govgeek

Man - the deals you find. I thought I was a deal hound but I've decided that when I get old enough to move again (kids out of the house), I may just have to move to your area (so if you see a small car with MN plates following you around just ignore it...)


Now I'm gonna have to start scouring furniture stores. Anyone know of any good ones in MN?


----------



## ecrabb

govgeek - I agree - I never find deals like that. If it would have been me in the store with the same three chairs there in the same condition, they would have been $25 off/ea.


I see that all the time - something's totally screwed, scratched, beat to death, missing parts, whatever... and it's 5 or 10% off. Gee, thanks - I'll pass. I always wonder when I see that, if after it sits there for a month or two, they just pitch it in the dumpster because it won't sell.


SC


----------



## Clarence

I replaced the lights with airtite insulation-contact cans.


CertainTeed CertaSound insulation installed on the walls and between the joists...

http://img118.exs.cx/img118/6769/insulation0dg.jpg 


And you can see my recessed box for the projector.


The green strips on the studs and joists are Integrity Gaskets (nerf tape, 2" wide, 1/8" thick) to decouple the drywall from the rest of the house.


If you're really paying attention, you'll see that I moved my 7.1 R&L rear surrounds to the back wall instead of the corners.


And here's the first piece of drywall being lifted (thanks for the use of the lift BigMouth)...

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/845/lift16ry.jpg 

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/3256/lift23ep.jpg 

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/868/lift31tz.jpg


----------



## Z-Photo

Nice -


Wheres the Drywall?




I bet that my girls are better helpers than your boys. HA


Pete


----------



## Z-Photo

There we go.


Allright - Now your cooking......


The lift makes it too easy....


Pete


----------



## Clarence

Pete-


I've got to travel next week, so our visit is off


----------



## cmjohnson

He's buying it one sheet at a time so he makes sure he doesn't buy any more than he really needs to! 



Clarence, are you doing the drywall yourself? Ever done it before?


I've done a LITTLE bit. Just three bits of advice:


Get a GOOD drywall screwgun.


Get a RotoZip. It is your best buddy in the world for making the holes for the

light boxes, outlet receptacles, and so on.


Never cut drywall. Score it deeply with a razor knife and snap it instead.


I've watched some very experienced drywall crews in action and they're so

fast and good, it's scary. They'd have your room done in an HOUR.


CJ


----------



## Clarence

I've done a little drywall in the past. I drywalled over the original location of the door that I moved and the bathroom wall that I shortened to make room for the new HT door. The biggest compliment is when neighbors don't even notice that a door used to be there.


I've got neighbors helping me. But the biggest help is the fact that it's all going to be covered with Linacoustic and acoustic fabric (GoM), so the mudding won't really matter.


Look what I picked up across town yesterday on ebay for $20...

http://img18.exs.cx/img18/8779/pepsi080yv.jpg 


More info on this thread in the HT Accessories forum .


Does anybody know how to bypass the change mechanism to make this dispense for free?


----------



## cmjohnson

Why even bother? I say, use it as a piggy bank! Set the price to a quarter a can or something, and you'll save all your change rather than spend it.


Find out what company built it (Dixie-Narco or some other) and contact them

and ask. I can't see why they wouldn't give you that info.


CJ


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by cmjohnson_

Why even bother?
The change mechanism was vandalized. That's why I got it for $20. It's a Vendo.


More info on this thread in the HT Accessories forum .


----------



## overclkr

Great score Clarence. That is an absolute steal!


I'm going to be getting started on my theatre here in the next month or so. I'm going to post current pics of my room soon......


Cliff


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by overclkr_

I'm going to be getting started on my theatre here in the next month or so. I'm going to post current pics of my room soon......
My wife says you guys will be glad when I'm finished so I'll stop posting all of these dang pictures.


She can't believe anyone would care to see these weekly status shots. She's not sure what's worse... me for posting them or you guys for looking at them.


garyfritz came by with his wife and boys and had dinner with us on their spring break trip to DC from Ft Collins CO. I think gary was forum member #30 that I've met face to face. And once again, she agrees, you guys are just as nice in person as you are online.


----------



## Z-Photo

Were just glad that it is not US having to do the work.


We will be jealous when you are done. 


Sorry to hear that you can't make it to Bama.


Pete


----------



## garyfritz

Just got back from DC, and yes, we had a great time meeting Clarence & family! It was my wife's first experience meeting "one of those forum guys" and I think she was relieved to find out he was just a really nice guy, apart from the HT obsession. 


It was almost spooky walking into Clarence's HT-in-progress. Talk about deja vu! I've seen it evolve from floorplans, and there it was for real.


----------



## cmjohnson

So where's the popcorn machine going to be?


And I assume there'll be a real concession stand with a real cash register and lots of way overpriced snacks that are really bad for you, right? 



CJ


----------



## techman707

Clarence,


Thank you, thank you, thank you.  


I was able to show my wife the soda machine you bought and convince her that there was someone crazier than me. I really appreciate your posting that picture.


Good luck with your new "Home"? Theatre.


Bruce


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by techman707_

I was able to show my wife the soda machine you bought and convince her that there was someone crazier than me. I really appreciate your posting that picture.
Glad to help! If she needs more proof, that link also contains a picture of my other Coke machine and a couple of light valves.


Our house is already a veritable Chuck E Cheese for my sons' neighborhood friends.... a couple of full size arcade games and a claw machine. I've been keeping my eye out for a jukebox and a pinball machine for about a year now... with patience, I'll eventually find a good deal on a local one. And a kegerator. I think that's really the only stuff left on my wish list.


Gary set a new precedent for HT visitors. He brought a dozen local microbrews from Ft Collins. I was previously going to have a sign outside the theater that said:

ADMISSION

Adults: 5c

Children (12 and under): *$7.50*


But I think I'm going to change that to:

ADMISSION

Adults: 1 microbrew

Children (12 and under): $7.50


----------



## techman707

I used to be in the Pinball machine business and always had at least 5 or 6 machines in the basement. However, can Coke machines is even past my sickness.


----------



## Clarence

The worst part is that it's hard to find decent beer in cans. So I'll eventually trade it for a kegerator (a small one that fits under the bar in my HT but still holds a half keg... not just an old fridge with a tap or a mini-fridge that only holds a quarter keg). The local wine warehouse stocks kegs of microbrews.


----------



## Z-Photo

Clarence-


I have seen a couple keg coolers on gov liq. And you can get them from Sams.....


Pete


----------



## Clarence

Yep. This one at Costco would work...
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...pnav=&cat=&s=1 

http://www.costco.com/Images/Content...ct/437335L.jpg


----------



## davidcrowe

Loved the soda machine. I'll have to show my dear wife some of your construction photos. Ours has been at the 85% complete mark for some time but I keep making changes as I see other examples posted here. She finally said that she has given up on thinking that it will ever be "finished"...


----------



## Clarence

The ceiling is now up, taped, and has a decent first coat of mud.

http://img174.exs.cx/img174/8701/ceilingdrywall7ys.jpg 


I like taping and mudding more than measuring and cutting.


I couldn't do it without the drywall lift.


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*The ceiling is now up, taped, and has a decent first coat of mud.

http://img174.exs.cx/img174/8701/ceilingdrywall7ys.jpg 


I like taping and mudding more than measuring and cutting.


I couldn't do it without the drywall lift.*
Home Theater fit for a King! Hey, where do get green 2x4s?


----------



## Z-Photo

CMRA,


The green strips are acoustic isolation pads. Clarence has been hanging out in some of the rich forums. 


Taping and mudding is fine until you have to sand it - nasty.


Pete


----------



## Belcherwm

Quote:

_Originally posted by Z-Photo_
*


Taping and mudding is fine until you have to sand it - nasty.


Pete*
Clarence,


Protect those Berks!


----------



## Brian Hampton

Pace certainly has been picked up.


----------



## cmjohnson

That's the way it goes. I may spend weeks building a guitar, but it always seems that the pace picks up rapidly once the body is ready for the neck to

be glued in. It's really just that it's the groundwork that takes the most time.


CJ


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Belcherwm_
*Clarence,


Protect those Berks!*
Yeah, I need to move them back into the boys' playroom... I dragged them in there to test the seating arrangement, but then piled the drywall and doors where the seats used to be. But now that framing and electrical is done, I can put away most of the construction tools and lumber and make room to move the seats out again. I paid for my drywall with store credit from all the crap I returned to HD... I always bought extras of everything or if I wasn't sure of a size... (8" duct or 6" duct) I'd buy both.
Quote:

_Originally posted by Brian Hampton_
*Pace certainly has been picked up.*
Yep, moving right along. It took a while to finish the electrical... between bad weather and weekend conflicts.


Then there were tons of little things... speaker wiring, door framing, HVAC, insulation, inspections, swapping out the recessed cans for airtites... I also built the recess and mounted some support pipes through the (4) 2x12's. I put 4 eyebolts up there, so I have lots of mounting options... I can hang a chain around the pipes, or I can attach a turnbuckle to the eyebolts, or I can attach unistrut to the eyebolts. It was tough because I couldn't mount anything to the subfloor above. But the 2x12's are rock solid... I did pull-ups from each 3/4" pipe.


I'm on the road for the rest of the week, but I figure this weekend I'll pop the walls up and it'll really start taking shape.


----------



## Z-Photo

Clarence,


Let me know when you are done with construction and read to test the Projectors. I need a vacation from work (ha) anyway and am more than willing to do all the hard work of drinking beer and watching TV.....


Pete


----------



## Larry Fine

Clarence, it's looking great! We're happy to have been a part of it.


(Any decision on the seats yet?)


----------



## Z-Photo

Update


Clarence is still working as a drywall slave. I am waiting on more pictures


Pete


----------



## Clarence

Here's my Reader's Digest version...


The final plan:
http://img59.exs.cx/img59/9518/ht551ly.gif 


And the simplified plan for permit/inspection:
http://img109.exs.cx/img109/6301/ht56elec5fn.gif 


Here's day 0 (before)...
http://tinypic.com/na0au 


a view from the back row before construction:
http://tinypic.com/nalaf 


Day 2 - framing the equipment room:
http://tinypic.com/uphn9 


Day 3 - recessed box for my CRT with power and A/V conduit to equipment room:
http://tinypic.com/uphr9


----------



## Clarence

 reaper 's render:










I applied Integrity Gaskets to all drywall mating surfaces to decouple the drywall vibration from the studs:









I started drywalling on March 20th:










4/13/2005: drywall is finished and primed...










4/16/2005: I started hanging Linacoustic and fabric on the walls...










5/9/2005: Carpet and seats installed....


Click this small thumbnail for a larger picture...

 


And try this 400Kb Quicktime movie....

 


Remaining tasks:

- build acoustically-transparent side walls for the front speakers ( done )

- rebuild the bar for the 3rd row

- upgrade receiver from 5.1 to 7.1 and buy dipole side speakers (done and done)


I added a gooseneck racklight with self-contained dimmer:










7/6/2005: BigMouthinDC visited last night and took these pictures with his wide angle lens...


----------



## Jim in Cincy

A side of Clarence we haven't seen before:


----------



## Jim in Cincy

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*That's Larry... he came up to help with framing and electrical.*
Oh, my mistake. Not like I know your butt........... good thing....


----------



## 316

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*My wife says you guys will be glad when I'm finished so I'll stop posting all of these dang pictures.


She can't believe anyone would care to see these weekly status shots. She's not sure what's worse... me for posting them or you guys for looking at them.*


Well, give a big thanks to the Mrs. C for having patience while you share your project with us. I did'nt realize there was so much information here since I last looked. Since I'll now have a theater room I'll be following this ever so closely...too bad it will not be as custom as yours  Maybe I can sneak in before they drywall and add some of that tape 


Now...let me see what ideas I can steal, er, borrow!


----------



## Z-Photo

The big thing would be the speaker wires. Man they are a pain in the butt to do with the dry wall up.


Clarence -


ummm - the insulation is installed backwards. Quick go back and change it. Rip the drywall off now before it is too late.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by 316_

Since I'll now have a theater room I'll be following this ever so closely...too bad it will not be as custom as yours  Maybe I can sneak in before they drywall and add some of that tape 


Now...let me see what ideas I can steal, er, borrow!
Our house wasn't custom, either... I just got lucky and the only unfinished part of our basement happened to be windowless.


Don't worry about the green tape (Integrity Gaskets) if your theater room is already going to be drywalled by the builder... After you move in, just add a second layer of drywall with Green Glue sandwiched between the layers.


In a year of reading everything in the HT Builder forum, this is how I would sum up HT acoustics advice...

- use Green Glue between double layers of drywall to contain the sound within the HT (to minimize the booms through the rest of the house)

- use Linacoustic insulation + Guilford of Maine fabric (GoM) to minimize reflections and echoes inside the HT, for good, clean sound with proper surround effects
Quote:

_Originally posted by Z-Photo_

ummm - the insulation is installed backwards. Quick go back and change it. Rip the drywall off now before it is too late.
That's just the first layer of insulation (original builder stuff)... I add another layer of CertainTeed CertaSound insulation as the drywall goes up.


I did forget to run the HiDef cable TV RG6 until after the ceiling was up, so I'll have a little patch work to do. But I got it routed through the walls to the equipment room before I did the walls.


----------



## kkanizar

Clarence,


What's above your PJ on the first floor? Is it an open area or is a wall over it? I'm recessing my as well and was wondering if you used some temp supports to frame it out?



Thanks!

Kevin


----------



## Clarence

The space above the recess is non-loadbearing between the foyer and an unused living room (that's what the floor plan calls it).


So no temp supports were needed while we boxed it out with double 2x12's on joist hangers. It already has a double joist on one side and we doubled up the joist on the other side, too. Then I added 2" of support under the existing subfloor, leaving me with 10" of recessed space, which is more than I need because the lenses need to peek out.


----------



## CMRA

I see only one thing wrong with your new theater...IT'S on the WRONG coast. Great work. Love the updates. CMRA


----------



## Z-Photo

Drywall dust and insulation itch. Sounds like fun.


Looking good Clarence.


I like the marble top bar. Just make sure that it is spill proof.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_
*I see only one thing wrong with your new theater...IT'S on the WRONG coast. Great work. Love the updates. CMRA*
It's DEFINITELY on the RIGHT COAST!!!


There are 2 place that YOU DON'T put a good Home Theatre:


1) In Florida, because you run the risk of losing it in a hurricane and;


2) On the WEST COAST (especially California), where you run the risk of Earthquakes and MUD SLIDES.


Other than that, you can do it anywhere else.


----------



## Mark_A_W

You need to install an Infinite Baffle sub somewhere Clarence.


Four 15" drivers in the equipment room wall would probably do it, if you could seal it off - the door would be doable, but the av rack would be an issue....


----------



## Clarence

I considered IB in the space under the stairs (the 4th picture above from last night), but I'm starting with a couple of powered subs for now.


----------



## Belcherwm

Looks great Clarence. What components are going in your AV rack? If you decide to go with some IR controlled dimmers down the road I can recommend the Lutron Spacer System for value/flexibility.


Off with the kids to gymnastics. Have a great weekend.


----------



## Clarence

I finished most of the drywall this week. I'll do the closets tomorrow. And I need to borrow a truck to get 12' sheets for the screen wall.

http://img193.exs.cx/img193/2640/1apr00799ty.jpg 

http://img193.exs.cx/img193/692/1apr00861fi.jpg 

http://img193.exs.cx/img193/8780/1apr00883fx.jpg 

http://img193.exs.cx/img193/6387/1apr00940jv.jpg 

http://img193.exs.cx/img193/731/1apr00974ud.jpg 

http://img193.exs.cx/img193/3122/1apr01046vo.jpg 


Not a bad pile of scraps (last picture... in front of screen) for 30+ sheets of drywall!


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Belcherwm_

Looks great Clarence. What components are going in your AV rack?
Hi Bill-


I want to get a 7.1 receiver after the construction spending is done.

Something like:
Pioneer THX VSX-1014TX or VSX-1015

or
Kenwood THX VR-8070 ( review ).

Nothing fancy.


My A/V stack is pretty simple:


- my current 5.1 JBL DCR600-II 100w*5 receiver
http://www.harmanaudio.com/images/products/dcr600II.jpg 


- I'm using my old Kenwood receiver as the buttkicker amp (seat bass shakers).


- Momitsu DVD 
http://www.momitsu.com/images/v880photo_s.jpg 


- JVC HM-DH30000U DVHS 
http://www.jvc.com/Resources/00/00/32/13.JPG 


- Motorola HDTV cable receiver (Adelphia is supposed to be upgrading to HD PVRs)
http://www.adelphiasocal.com/hdtv/hd...es/dct5100.jpg


----------



## Z-Photo

I am still waiting on a update. figured your wife was tired of me calling every day.


----------



## Clarence

I just finished hanging the final sheet of drywall 5 minutes ago. I was waiting to use 12' sheets of 5/8" and BigMouthinDC graciously volunteered the use of his truck, but Lowes and HD here only have 1/2" for 12' drywall, so I just grabbed some more 8 footers.


I'm about to tape and mud the final sheets and I'll do a quick 3rd coat on the ceiling (I only did 2 quick layers on the walls because they're getting covered with fabric).


My wife volunteered to do the priming tomorrow. She's thrilled with the fact that there's no masking required because the ceiling is going to get primed the same color (black) and we don't have carpet yet.


I'll post pictures before going to bed.


I pick up the Linacoustic (1" acoustical sound treatment for under the fabric) on Monday.


----------



## CMRA

Once again, ubernice Clarence! Jolly good show!


----------



## Clarence

I was on the road last week, so not much to show from last week's pictures except the screen wall. And I put metal edges on the corners and mudded them. Including on the projector recess... looks nice now.


Here's the final couple of sheets of drywall...

http://img123.exs.cx/img123/924/9apr17bn.jpg 


There's an intentional 1/4" gap between the walls and ceiling to decouple the vibrations. I need another tube of acoustical sealant and caulk it tomorrow like I did the others. That acoustic caulk is good stuff.


And here's the equipment closet, also drywalled and I hooked up my receiver, speakers, and Momitsu to test the in-wall wiring. Sounds great even with bare walls! I cut out the window for the A/V rack. The door frame is just propped there to test the width.

http://img129.exs.cx/img129/9048/9apr22ib.jpg


----------



## chinadog

Clarence,


Looks great! Man, I wish I was as close as you. Where did you get the acoustical caulk? Do they sell it at HD?


Bud


----------



## Z-Photo

Nice C-


I have my vacation all lined up - If I do not get the Hawaii job. 


Pete


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by chinadog_

Where did you get the acoustical caulk? Do they sell it at HD?
They don't have it on the shelf at HD or Lowes, but they should be able to special order it. I got mine at a local drywall supply warehouse, Global Supply in Leesburg. It's dirt cheap... jumbo caulk tube (29 oz) is ~$4. I've used 8 tubes so far. I probably need 2 more, so $40 for the whole HT.


It's made by USG... Sheetrock Brand Acoustical Sealant , 29 oz.

UPC: 0 81099 00238 0

http://64.43.232.171/USG_Marketing_C...stSealnt_g.jpg 


See these threads for more info:
I need an online source for caulk 
BasementBob's mega list of acoustic caulks


----------



## Clarence

Here's the primer on the walls. It has 5 oz of Lamp Black... I'd call it ~50% gray. But it's just to seal the drywall... it'll be completely covered tomorrow with black Linacoustic sound treatment... then covered with fabric.

http://img106.echo.cx/img106/6528/13apr25nt.jpg 


The ceiling (and the border around the screen) is Ralph Lauren Suede paint... I had HD add 7 oz of lamp black pigment to the can (the darkest swatch called for 5 oz)... it's reeeeeeally dark. That suede paint is really cool stuff. It looks kinda like a blackboard in elementary school after they'd washed it with a wet rag... even with a clean rag you could see slight swish marks... that's the color/pattern/texture of my ceiling. I think it looks great. Plus, it's ultra flat (like black sandpaper), so it nicely hides any seams in the drywall sheets.

http://img128.echo.cx/img128/3171/13apr17gt.jpg 


The screen is 10' wide, but I'll mask it down as determined by the actual image size once I mount the projector. The black sides won't be seen when I'm done... that's where the front L&R speakers are going, in a proscenium covered with black acoustically-transparent cloth.


It looks great with the lights on, but even better with the lights off!

http://img106.echo.cx/img106/7449/13apr31ns.jpg


----------



## WCP

I have not been around to much (since page 18) but I was interested to see how you were coming along. Looks great so far and I was surprised to see you are not too far off from my concept I posted back then.
My drawing 



Cant wait to see the final product!


Wes


----------



## Clarence

Yep, that early sketch has all the basic elements... I moved the door and the bar seats now face the screen.


The other fun thing to watch is the construction getting closer and closer to reaper's render...

reaper 's render:
http://tinypic.com/1jqfdy 


actual construction as of 13 Apr:
http://img128.echo.cx/img128/3171/13apr17gt.jpg


----------



## Z-Photo

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*

It looks great with the lights on, but even better with the lights off!

*
I can say that about some Girls I know. 


Looking good Mr. C


Pete


----------



## Clarence

My first piece of Linacoustic (1" acoustic insulation on top of the drywall but behind fabric, to reduce reflections)... usually it will only go on the bottom half of the wall, but since I'll have 2 large reflective backlit poster frames on the back wall to cover the electrical panel, I figured a little extra treatment would be good.


I framed around the receptacles to give me something to staple to. Most people use 1x2's, but I used a jigsaw to cut out the junction box template from a 1x6. I also used 1"x6" on the sides of the electrical panel because there are outlets on both sides and I'll need something to support the poster frame.

http://img108.echo.cx/img108/6258/15apr14qa.jpg 


Chair rail will cover the seam between the top patterned fabric and bottom black fabric. Crown molding (with ropelight running behind it) will cover the top seam.


I used black duct tape to seal the gap between the linacoustic and the furring strips. This Linacoustic is a lot itchier than the fiberglass insulation I put in the walls and joists.

http://img114.echo.cx/img114/1452/15apr28fp.jpg 


And here's one with the flash so you can see the pattern...

http://img114.echo.cx/img114/3517/15apr32pg.jpg 


Now I cut out the fabric from the receptacles and breaker panel. Then I can work on the bottom Linacoustic and black fabric base.


----------



## Belcherwm

I like the pattern.


What are you going to do with the door to your equipment room? Are you going to do some "treatment" with it as well?


I've been thinking about doing something on the ceiling right in front of the the screen to deal with the center channel placed above the screen.


----------



## Clarence

Thanks, I like the pattern, too. Especially on the wall. In person, it's more like the middle photo above, very dark, subtle, low-contrast. I took a sq yd of it to HD to look at carpet... it looked dark green under their fluorescents. But we brought it to the back of the store with regular lights and it looked brown again.


I think I'm just goint to paint the door to the equipment room flat black. If I get bored in several months, I might treat it with fabric.


I might just use black fabric for the whole front area under the equipment room soffit... the proscenium for the fornt speakers, the door, and the recessed A/V rack window.


I'm not quite sure what to do with my center channel speaker yet either. I know it's going on top. I bought a black shelf for it. And then I saw a nice black bracketless shelf (the mounting frame has 2 tubes that the shelf slides onto). But then I read a tip in the hushbox plenum thread about using bungee cords to suspend the speaker, so i might rig something up like that too. I have some heavy black velvet drapes that I was going to use for masking, but I'll have to figure out how to mask the top without muffling the center channel. I might just replace part of the valance with a yard of black GoM in front of the speaker.


My fingertips are raw from nicks and cuts and dried out cracks from these weeks of manual labor... it's hard to type.


----------



## garyfritz

Go have a beer and heal, Clarence. 


You're putting the center on top, eh? Mine is currently just under the screen but I've heard it can be better to mount it over the center. But I've only got 16" between the screen and the ceiling, and the speaker is 7" high. That seems tight. Is it really significantly better to put it up there?


----------



## Clarence

I think the premise is that if the CC was on the bottom, the line of sight (line of sound?) to the 2nd and 3rd rows would be obstructed by the front row.


But mine's also going on top because that's where the speaker wire is.


----------



## Z-Photo

Slacker,


Get back to work. I need a vacation and am waiting on you. 


That did not sound right.


----------



## garyfritz

Hm, if line of sight is the only/main concern, I'm not worried. My room is too small for a second row anyway.


----------



## Clarence

just a quick photo update of tonight's progress...


including my first sconce...

http://img68.echo.cx/img68/3555/15apr44fj.jpg 


The fabric hanging over the bar ledge needs trimmed. The bottom half is still just unfinished Linacoustic. Tomorrow I'll cover it with black fabric. I'm excited with how nice it's already looking. I can't wait until I put crown molding, chair rail, and baseboards in.


The white receptacles and the electrical panel will be covered with poster boxes.


----------



## 316

*"I can't wait until I put crown molding, chair rail, and baseboards in."*



I can't wait either. Its looking very, very good!


----------



## Z-Photo

How resistant is the fabric to Beer Stains??


or are you going to use a lot of scotch gaurd?


----------



## Clarence

I took a design cue from my Jeep... it has drain plugs under the floor mats so you can hose it out (or if you leave the top down during a rain). So I built a drainage system in the floor of my HT.  And I don't drink scotch, so I don't have to guard against that.


Thankfully, my beer buddies (and I) aren't known for spilling much at all anymore. Those sloppy days are long gone. (Pete was my college roommate almost 20 years ago. We might've spilled a few beers back then.)


But we'll have to see how harsh my boys' neighborhood friends are with their sodas and juiceboxes. The cupholders at each seat should help. And the carpet is dark and durable. But I might propose simple bottled water and popcorn as the typical snack... sticky floors is one aspect of the true theater that I don't care to replicate.


----------



## plain fan

So Clarence I'm wondering did Pete have such beautiful women around him when you two were in college?


----------



## Clarence

Ahh... college... there was never a shortage of beautiful women. Especially in the SEC.


Um, unless our wives or parents are lurking... in that case, we were always just studying... no time for beer and coeds. Or football.


----------



## plain fan

Just curious, generally engineers don't attract women (I'm an engineer so its ok).


And your theater is coming along nicely. Did you or your wife pick out that pattern for the walls? Have you decided how to mount your center speaker?


----------



## Clarence

But we were cool engineers (oxymoron?). And good lookin'  . And just all around fun guys. 


We lived in an apartment complex which with about 50% girls... it was all too common during the week for a small group to gather and pitch in $5 each for a keg (or the first keg). Ahhh, drinkin' with cute chicks...


And then once you become a gigolo on the sorority party circuit (been there, done that, got the shirt)... For GDI's, Sorority parties were a lot more fun than fraternity parties.


I picked out the fabric. It was tougher than you might imagine... I wanted something more unique than solid GoM. But I wanted a manly pattern... not floral. Dark. Low contrast.


----------



## plain fan

Ah, the perfect enviroment: girls, beer and a couple of guys to fix any of their problems 


I like the pattern, where did you get the fabric? (or did I miss that in an earlier post?)


----------



## Clarence

>> where did you get the fabric?


ebay. There are a lot of fabric sellers. Most just sell bolt remnants. But several sell large bolts... 20 yds+. IIRC, I paid about $100 for ~30 yards. But in this case, pattern was more important than cost and I was willing to pay much more. I'd already budgeted $13-19/yd for GoM.


It was tough to shop for fabric on ebay... Lots of choices, but too hard to get a feel for the pattern size, color, weight, texture, weave. I just got lucky. I figured I'd try it. If I didn't like it I was just going to relist it. But I liked it a lot when it arrived. I like it 10x more on the wall.


You can also find nice upholstery/drapery fabrics at JoAnn's or McCormick Fabrics. They come on 54"-60" wide rolls instead of bolts. But they cost $20-30/yd.


----------



## Z-Photo

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*But we were cool engineers (oxymoron?). And good lookin'  . And just all around fun guys. 


Ahhh, drinkin' with cute chicks...


got the shirt)...


*
A Shirt. A shirt you say.


I will still do stupid things for a free shirt. 


I actually got a shirt at my wedding. 


I am not a real engineer - I just play one for the Army.......


----------



## CMRA

I'm not sure which I prefer...Clarence's awesome theater pix or Z-Photos awesome babe shots. The rest of you were thinking it. I just said it.


True HT AVSer that I am, in the end, the theater stays.


----------



## Clarence

Pete, when you come up here on vacation for the grand opening of my HT, we'll have to find a model and do a calendar shoot... best of both worlds for CMRA.


The hard part will be convincing my wife that the blonde in a bikini is just another one of the forum guys. She's met over a dozen of you guys... somehow I don't think she'll fall for it.


----------



## plain fan

Would she buy it if you told her you were watching Bikini Destinations in HD?


----------



## Z-Photo

C-


I will see who (Bikini model) is available in the DC area....


Tell her it is all my fault - worked before. 



The theater is lookin real close. Now for all the fine tuning.


----------



## cmjohnson

Best of both worlds: Posters of Z's babes on Clarence's walls in the poster boxes, with videos of the girls running in the theater.


What's not to like? 



CJ


----------



## Belcherwm

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*Ahh... college... there was never a shortage of beautiful women. Especially in the SEC.


Um, unless our wives or parents are lurking... in that case, we were always just studying... no time for beer and coeds. Or football.*
I was at Auburn a couple of years before you and Pete. One of my best memories was partying with some of the girls and Playboy staff when they were in town for the "Girls of the SEC" shoot. One of my friend's girlfriend made the cut and we were in the right place at the right time.


Clarence,


You are flying! It's hard doing interior work when it is so nice outside.


----------



## Clarence

Ah, yes, Girls of the SEC. Was she posing in front of Samford Hall?


Speaking of going topless.. I've had the top down on my Jeep all week. It's down until Halloween... well, I at least leave windows out until then. I just put the roof cover up when it rains.


Beautiful weekend... I got to enjoy a little bit of it on my daily drives to get supplies at HD or Lowes.


----------



## Marshall F

Clarence - looking awesome! The fabris look like a greatcombination of light absorbtion and nice looking. That's odd to say, anyway, nice choice!


Does the room seem to shrink a little each step of the way? Pics seemed bigger without the latest steps...


You probably mentioned it, but what sound treatment are you putting over the breaker box?


So what's the maiden voyage movie going to be, anyway?




Marshall


----------



## Belcherwm

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*Ah, yes, Girls of the SEC. Was she posing in front of Samford Hall?


Speaking of going topless.. I've had the top down on my Jeep all week. It's down until Halloween... well, I at least leave windows out until then. I just put the roof cover up when it rains.


Beautiful weekend... I got to enjoy a little bit of it on my daily drives to get supplies at HD or Lowes.*
Not in front of Samford. I think it was indoors, bathroom maybe. Natural red head.


Had a wrangler for 10 + years. Just got rid of it. I had a Triumph TR6 at Auburn. Never put the top up unless I knew it was gong to rain. One morning I came out and had two inches of snow in it. Glad you got out this weekend.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Marshall F_

Does the room seem to shrink a little each step of the way? Pics seemed bigger without the latest steps...
The room is still the same size, I was just just zoomed in on the finished wall.


I know what you mean though... I think I've adjusted to the room size. It seemed huge on paper before they started construction of the house. But by time I took actual measurements, added real furniture (those Berkline HT recliners are huge), built walls, added a layer of Linacoustic and fabric... it did keep getting smaller and smaller.


For a while, I wished the room was larger. But I think it's a good size now. I wish I would've known about the builder's option to dig the basement a foot deeper so we could have 9' ceilings like the rest of the house.
Quote:

You probably mentioned it, but what sound treatment are you putting over the breaker box?
I hung my homemade backlit poster frame over it this weekend. I have 2 recessed clock receptacles on a dimmer on the back wall, so the cord is completely hidden.
Quote:

So what's the maiden voyage movie going to be, anyway?
Hmm... I'm not sure yet... I'll have to wait and see what's coming out soon. I figure I'm a month away from a complete grand opening:

- Finish the fabric on the walls

- crown molding and chair rails

- build the recessed A/V rack

- carpet installation

- proscenium (false wall for speakers)

- rebuild the bar


And then I have to hang the projector.


My original goals were the Super Bowl and then the DVD release of "The Incredibles". Oh well.


Maybe no one else will find this amusing, but when I finished taping the last seam on the last sheet of drywall, this is what was left of the roll of drywall tape... a whole foot to spare (and half of that has adhesive from the cardboard roll)

http://img51.echo.cx/img51/9880/18apr15rp.jpg 


And look how many screws I had left over.


It reminds me of the time about 20 years ago in college when I was driving back from Florida... I was low on gas and started looking for a gas station. After about 20 miles, I found finally one... I ran out of gas pulling into the lot and rolled up to the pump. I came to a stop without using my brakes. 


For what it's worth, I tried 3 different types of tape and preferred this perforated paper stuff. It didn't bubble up like the solid paper stuff. I tried the plastic mesh too.


And I actually preferred the heavy mud with a green lid over the lightweight mud with a blue lid.


I used metal edges with paper strips. They worked nicely.


I did all sanding with a single sanding sponge (and a face mask... I had to wear my glasses because the dust wreaked havoc with my contacts). The power sander kicked up too much dust and the wire meshes took too much off and it was too much trouble to work with the pole.


----------



## E. Martin

Clarence,


Do you have any idea how many folks you just pissed off? I know how "Murphy" (and his law) works and there are going to be at least 5-10 people that look at this thread in the coming months and hate you, as they used the last of their screws, still needing 10 more, and only needed a foot or two more of tape to finish the job!!!!


Give me a few months. I can almost assure you that I will be one of those folks!


It really is looking good.


----------



## Don Rombach

Quote:

_Originally posted by E. Martin_
*Clarence,


Do you have any idea how many folks you just pissed off? I know how "Murphy" (and his law) works and there are going to be at least 5-10 people that look at this thread in the coming months and hate you, as they used the last of their screws, still needing 10 more, and only needed a foot or two more of tape to finish the job!!!!


Give me a few months. I can almost assure you that I will be one of those folks!


It really is looking good.*
LOL


Good thing gas prices were cheap when I built My room.. Must have sent the wife on a hundred trips to the store for one more of something


Tis coming together nicely Clarence. Going to look great!


----------



## Person99

Clarence,


I've been looking for fabric to cover some panels. Short of buying GoM, I have not figured out how to determine if fabric is accoustically absorbent or transparent (as opposed to reflective). How did you determine this?


Thanks,

Dave


----------



## Clarence

Acoustic transparency isn't as important for fabric covering Linacoustic on the walls. The usual test is to put a swatch up to your mouth and blow through it. If air can pass through the weave with minimal resistance, then you're OK for wall covering... it won't be reflective (I've only seen reflective values for some carpets, but not for a fabric).


There are several threads in the HT Builder's forum, but the basic premise is that fabric will be less absorptive than the acoustic treatments it's covering, so it's no big deal... whatever frequencies get through the fabric will be absorbed properly by the treatments anyways, and whatever frequencies get absorbed by the fabric are OK because they would be absorbed by the Linacoustic anyways.


But these are just my paraphrases, interpretations, inferences, assumptions, and findings. Each room is different. Each fabric is different. GoM is the safe choice. I'm not using GoM to cover the entire wall, but I am using it in front of my speakers on the proscenium/stage false wall and in my speaker columns.


I just hooked up (and cranked up!) my speakers to test out the Linacoustic treatments...

   !


----------



## CMRA

Marquee 8000...$511

Momitsu 880...$199

Favorite DVD...$14.95


Clarence's Home Theater...Priceless


----------



## Clarence

I finished the major walls (I still have the little sections like around the screen and A/V rack) and I've got all the sconces up. And I hung the backlit poster frame over the electrical panel.


The first wall's trim is being stained (crown molding, chair rail, baseboards... oak, stained mahogany).


After months of searching, I found my carpet today... I liked it before I saw the price. Better yet... I still liked it AFTER I saw the price. It happened to be one of the lowest price carpets in the whole showroom. Still comes to about $1000 though. Officially the most expensive part of the whole theater.


Here's a close-up of the wall fabric and the carpet sample (center swatch). It'll be separated by 3' of black suede on the lower wall; zoom out to last week's picture for a better feel for the fabric pattern and scale...

http://img241.echo.cx/img241/7434/carpet1wz.jpg 


The picture doesn't do it justice, but in real life, the colors are spot on. Low contrast, but just enough pattern to hide inevitable wear from a million neighborhood kids and spilt popcorn.


----------



## Marshall F

Hey Clarence,


I saw the stuff on the back-lit movie poster. I was just wondering if you were putting any acoustical dampening over the breaker box to avoid bad reflection / vibrations. I guess you wouldn't need to with the poster over it.


Looking great! Your attention to detail and frugal shopping prowess are still stellar!


----------



## Brian Hampton

Ok,


Since you haven't apparently setup a date for Grand Opening.. May I suggest Memorial Day Weekend Friday May 27th?


That's when I want to have mine. I was ahead of the game too until I found a local Marquee to repair my broken down one and lost nearly a week thus far somehow because of it.


Or, you could finish sooner and do Episodes 4.5.6.1.2 finished up the day before SW Episode III opens.


=B


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Marshall F_

I saw the stuff on the back-lit movie poster. I was just wondering if you were putting any acoustical dampening over the breaker box to avoid bad reflection / vibrations. I guess you wouldn't need to with the poster over it.
I've had the poster frame over the breaker box for a week now. The whole room sounds great. I love the Linacoustic and fabric... the whole room sounds incredible at very low and foolishly high volumes and everywhere in between. The surround sounds are incredible. And the sound containment behind the walls is proving very effective, too. Only at foolish volumes, the only indication in any other part of the house is that I can make the dishes rattle in the china cabinet directly above the HT... and that's only at volume of -10 or louder. It's kinda spooky to walk down the basement stairs, round the corner, then wall into the room and be wonderfully immersed in the sound. I don't even have a door on the HT yet and the sound is still nicely contained.


Much better than our last house, where the sound travelled straight into the air ducts and I couldn't listen to movies or music past 9pm without getting the evil eye from my wife because it went straight to our boys' rooms.


Any acoustic reflections from the frame glass shouldn't be too significant... the rule of thumb in the Builder's forum is that you only need sound treatments below ear level anyways, and my posters are above the chair rail.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Brian Hampton_

for Grand Opening.. May I suggest Memorial Day Weekend Friday May 27th?


Or, you could finish sooner and do Episodes 4.5.6.1.2 finished up the day before SW Episode III opens.
Both of those dates are very achievable... May 19th or 27th. I think the carpet is the only long lead item, and it should only take 2 weeks.


Episodes 4.5.6.1.2 marathon is a good idea... all family friendly movies and that way neighbors can come over any or all of the nights.


----------



## Person99

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*Episodes 4.5.6.1.2 marathon is a good idea*
No its not! George Lucas owes me 4 hours of my life back for Episodes 6 and 1. Heck, HE should pay US to own Episode 1!


----------



## Clarence

Tonight's update...

http://img247.echo.cx/img247/8505/21apr1yp.jpg 


The ceiling is actually painted the with the same paint and is as dark as the recessed box for the projector. It shows up very light in this picture... it must be reflecting the recessed lights off of the concrete floor.


The dangling wires are where speaker columns will be. And the marble ledge (beer shelf) is just scraps of 1x6 right now.


Crown molding, chair rail, and baseboards are being stained with their 3rd coat.


----------



## reaper

That's looking great, Clarence!


The upper walls don't seem to be nearly as dark as you were indicating during the rendering process.


So, I guess this view is looking back off to the side of the screen. Weren't you planning to wall that in and have a little computer room back there or something? Sorry, I haven't been following the thread too closely.




reaper


----------



## Clarence

You're off by 90 degrees. I'm standing at the screen in this picture, facing the back wall. The equipment room is still there... over my left shoulder in the picture above.


The fabric is darker than the pictures show... I had to increase the exposure time... the auto settings came out too realistically dark:
http://img257.echo.cx/img257/8080/21apr27fy.jpg


----------



## kal

Clarence needs to have one massive open house once the HT's done... open to any (and all) AVS members since AVS has helped design (and build) the HT!


Can't wait to see the pic of 250 AVS members crammed into the Clarence's new HT. 


Make sure to charge a few bucks at the door to pay for rebuilding the HT after all the party/beer-spillage/riot damage!


Kal


----------



## techman707

Hey Clarence, with a crowd like that, you'll need to install a 50 ton air conditioner.


----------



## Clarence

Thankfully our basement always stays 10 degrees cooler than the rest of the house... the HT side is underground... conveniently with no windows.


My house is always open to AVS. However, garyfritz set the precedence a couple of weeks ago when his family visited... he brought a dozen local microbrews from CO. So that sounds like my kind of admission fee


----------



## techman707

I made the same MISTAKE. My basement was actually cold in the summer.....until I installed a G70 and had 10 people one night. Between the hot air exhausted from the projector and the body heat of the people, I had to install a 19,000 BTU air conditioner........but it makes too much noise to use during the movie.


----------



## cmjohnson

FYI, an average adult generates 300 watts of heat.


CJ


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by cmjohnson_

FYI, an average adult generates 300 watts of heat.


CJ
Are you running on a treadmill while watching movies?!


The charts I find show 100w...
http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/studen...condnotes.html 

Quote:

Du Bois area: The surface area of skin of an "average" adult is 1.8 m2 (1.8 x 10.76 = 19.368 ft2) The total heat production of an "average" person at rest per hour is 58.2 x 1.8 = 104.76 = *105 watts* (18.4 x 19.368 = 356.37 = 356 Btu's per hour).
 http://www.science.ca/askascientist/...on.php?qID=414 
Quote:

Total heat output (radiation and advection) at the skin must be about the same as the metabolic heat. Take kilocalories per day, multiply by 4184 cal/J, divide by 86,400 sec/day. *Typically 100-140 watts.*
But with seating only for 8, the tie in to existing HVAC supply and return will hopefully be sufficient, especially since that room is always the coolest part of the house.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by cmjohnson_
*FYI, an average adult generates 300 watts of heat.


CJ*
lol - Over what period of time? Maybe I could harness them and heat my house in the winter time.


----------



## TheFerret

Does it include dead adults, too?


----------



## garyfritz

You are a whirlwind, Clarence. You're getting an incredible amount done!!
Quote:

And the sound containment behind the walls is proving very effective, too.... It's kinda spooky to walk down the basement stairs, round the corner, then wall into the room and be wonderfully immersed in the sound. I don't even have a door on the HT yet and the sound is still nicely contained.
Sigh. Must be nice. I can't play movies when my wife is working in her office directly above the HT (which is most of the time) or in bed directly over her office (which is most of the rest of the time). The bass travels through the floors and makes it hard for her to work/sleep. Maybe if I get some bass shakers and turn down the sub.....


----------



## Person99

Quote:

_Originally posted by garyfritz_
*Must be nice. I can't play movies when my wife is working in her office directly above the HT (which is most of the time) or in bed directly over her office (which is most of the rest of the time). The bass travels through the floors and makes it hard for her to work/sleep.*
HA, I wish that was my only problem! My HT is directly over my 2 year olds bedroom and the "media room" was not built as a true media room, so the R13 in the walls and floor do virtually nothing to stop the sound. So, our only time to really watch movies is when my daughter is asleep, but we can't watch them because my daughter is asleep.


----------



## PAW

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*Thankfully our basement always stays 10 degrees cooler than the rest of the house... the HT side is underground... conveniently with no windows.


My house is always open to AVS. However, garyfritz set the precedence a couple of weeks ago when his family visited... he brought a dozen local microbrews from CO. So that sounds like my kind of admission fee *
The microbrews from CO is the easy part. It's the plane ticket to VA or the 24 hour drive to get there.  I actually shipped a 12 pack of Breckenridge Brewery Avalanche Ale to a former neighbor who now lives in KY. It was part of a house warming gift. He still thanks me when we talk. Pasbt vs. Avalanche. Can't understand what his problem was.


----------



## Clarence

Here's this weekend's update:

http://img113.echo.cx/img113/4899/24apr6ae.jpg 


The only significant addition is the trim... red oak with 5 sanded coats of mahogany stain.


----------



## TheFerret

Damn, you truly have patience, Clarence. I hate painting, and staining is worse (IMO). To be patient enough to do five coats would simply make me to evil things.


----------



## armstrr

Quote:

_Originally posted by garyfritz_
*. Maybe if I get some bass shakers and turn down the sub.....*
i put 2 bass shakers/berkline 087...best thrill/$ spent...and the wife and kids don't get awoken.


----------



## hoyty

First I have to say great job. Quick question about the linacoustic treatment. Did you do all the walls below ear level (trim I guess in your case)? Did you do anything behind the upper fabric anywhere other than back wall? I am trying to figure out if you can overdo the absorbtion materials. Thanks.


----------



## Clarence

There are several threads in the HT Builder's forum about Linacoustic, so I'll preface this with the advice to research what "they" say, not to necessarily do what I did.


The usual practice is to put Linacoustic on the bottom half and use 1" polyfil on the top.


However, I used Linacoustic on upper _and_ lower halves of my walls for a few reasons...


1) I had a new roll of Linacoustic sitting here but no batting.

2) Linacoustic is available locally here for $123 for a 1"x48"x100' roll... that's the same cost as the poly batting at Joann's (3.99/yd = $132 for 100').

3) I like the way the Linacoustic cuts and maintains it's edges.

4) Linacoustic is black... I don't have to worry about the white showing up behind the fabric weave.

5) Linacoustic has more heft and body and rebound to it when pushing against the wall fabric.

6) Poly batting is not as acoustically neutral as most people assume...

Here are Bob's numbers :- JM Linacoustic RC 1" (25mm) 0.08 0.31 0.64 0.84 0.97 1.03 0.70

- Autex Polyester AAB 14kg 1" 0.15 0.25 0.35 0.45 0.45 0.50 0.40

- Autex Polyester AAB 48kg 1" 0.15 0.35 0.60 0.75 0.85 0.95 0.65

7) I've been to a couple of HT's with Linacoustic on the top and they sounded great.

8) I had an entire roll which was sufficient to cover the room without needing to purchase the polyester batting (One minor exception, I used the thin poly batting on the entry hallway, just because it was already narrow and I didn't want to lose another 2" (1" on each side) due to Linacoustic.)


I certainly don't propose this to anyone else... the main reason is #1 above... it's what I had handy at the moment and I was anxious to see my fabric on the walls.


Bottom line, it sounds great. I'd do it that way again for the same reasons.


For other updates:

- the last batch of trim is being stained.

- I built my recessed A/V rack last night.

- I ordered the carpet.

- I installed the 3 doors today (solid core door for the main entry, regular 6-panel doors on equipment room and under-stairs storage).


I hope to hang the projector tomorrow or Friday.


I'll have all the little details finished before carpet is delivered in 2 weeks.


----------



## Z-Photo

C-


The over all look is very nice. Not Hawaii nice but close - very close.


Stinking wife and kids.....


----------



## garyfritz

I'm really surprised it works so well for you. I would think a room totally lined in Linacoustic would be incredibly "dead." You've got a huge number of square feet soaking up almost everything above 1000Hz. That's a lotta sabins at those high frequencies.


----------



## dokworm

I personally prefer a room with a bit of bounce left in it for movies, especially for the surrounds.

Do you get that wierd oppressive felling when you walk into the room alone, where you can 'feel' the lack of sound? I just finished putting insulation into my room, no lining as yet, and it has that eerie quality.


----------



## Z-Photo

Clarence is mostly deaf anyway-


In college I would get back from class - get out of the car and hear the music coming from the apt.

I would go in (holding my ears) and find him on the couch


asleep.....


(beer in hand - of course)

(middy bests for those wondering - because lack of income overcomes good taste)


Pete


----------



## Larry Fine

Quote:

_- I built my recessed A/V rack last night.[/b]_
_
Clarence, there's a picture I'm sure we'd like to see, front and rear!_


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by garyfritz_
*I'm really surprised it works so well for you. I would think a room totally lined in Linacoustic would be incredibly "dead." You've got a huge number of square feet soaking up almost everything above 1000Hz. That's a lotta sabins at those high frequencies.*
If you have the power, an acoustically DEAD room is the easiest to do 1/3 octave equalization on. Of course that's assuming you really want accurate sound reproduction similar to what was originally heard in the dubbing theatre. I say "assuming" because many people prefer to colorize their sound.


----------



## Clarence

>> RE: I built my recessed A/V rack last night.
Quote:

_Originally posted by Larry Fine_

Clarence, there's a picture I'm sure we'd like to see
It's nothing complicated... just a 20" deep box with a single fixed shelf, made from 3/4" birch ply, stained and trimmed:
http://img242.echo.cx/img242/4260/29apr2585xi.jpg http://img242.echo.cx/img242/4260/29apr2585xi.th.jpg 


a closer view with flash (you can see the speaker wires running into the ceiling in the equipment room behind). The 5" screen is from my son's PS2... I'm using it to see menu options while I play concert DVDs.
http://img242.echo.cx/img242/5199/29apr2521hm.jpg http://img242.echo.cx/img242/5199/29apr2521hm.th.jpg 


I'm going to paint the doors black. The trim is 90% finished. I'm waiting on the baseboards until after the carpet is installed.

http://img206.echo.cx/img206/4215/29apr2428rz.jpg http://img206.echo.cx/img206/4215/29apr2428rz.th.jpg 


Front left corner... I'm going to put the speakers behind a proscenium false wall, built after carpet is installed (to simplify the carpet installation and so I can change the design if I build a larger front stage)..
http://img242.echo.cx/my.php?image=29apr2656cz.jpg http://img242.echo.cx/img242/7135/29apr2656cz.th.jpg 


The door in the center is the main entry. It's a solid core door... very quiet when closed, plus I'll be adding weatherstripping seals. The door on the right is storage under the stairs. Both doors will be painted black.
http://img242.echo.cx/img242/348/29apr2678rs.jpg http://img242.echo.cx/img242/348/29apr2678rs.th.jpg 


My bar ledge with trim...
http://img130.echo.cx/img130/7522/29apr2731rx.jpg http://img130.echo.cx/img130/7522/29apr2731rx.th.jpg 


I'll be building the full bar after the carpet is installed.


I hope to finally re-hang the projector tomorrow.


----------



## CMRA

Clarence,


It just keeps getting better and better. Hey, how about getting featured in next month's Better Homes and Theaters?


But, something's missing...where's your HDTV/HTPC setup?


Oh, and that screen...well...say, would a ST130 finish your setup or what?


UBERNICE !


----------



## Clarence

Thanks.


I don't have any immediate plans for using HTPC again.


I will have HD cable with PVR, though. And the DVHS recorder is currently hooked up to out "big-screen" RPTV, so I'll be moving that down there.


----------



## cmjohnson

It's been so long I've completely forgotten and I'm too lazy to sort through 37

page to find out....what PJ are you going to hang in there?



CJ


----------



## Person99

Quote:

_Originally posted by CMRA_
*It just keeps getting better and better. Hey, how about getting featured in next month's Better Homes and Theaters?
*
I think there should have been a series on this project in Home Theater Builder.


----------



## Clarence

>> RE: I built my recessed A/V rack last night.
Quote:

_Originally posted by Larry Fine_

Clarence, there's a picture I'm sure we'd like to see, front and rear!
It's nothing complicated... just a 20" deep box with a single fixed shelf, made from 3/4" birch ply, stained and trimmed:
http://img242.echo.cx/img242/4260/29apr2585xi.jpg http://img242.echo.cx/img242/4260/29apr2585xi.th.jpg 


a closer view with flash (you can see the speaker wires running into the ceiling in the equipment room behind). The 5" screen is from my son's PS2... I'm using it to see menu options while I play concert DVDs.
http://img242.echo.cx/img242/5199/29apr2521hm.jpg http://img242.echo.cx/img242/5199/29apr2521hm.th.jpg 


Here's a view from the rear, as requested. The 2" pipe is a conduit to the projector for the RGBHV cable.
http://img257.echo.cx/img257/4412/29apr2834mx.jpg http://img257.echo.cx/img257/4412/29apr2834mx.th.jpg 



I'm going to paint the doors black. The trim is 90% finished. I'm waiting on the baseboards until after the carpet is installed.

http://img206.echo.cx/img206/4215/29apr2428rz.jpg http://img206.echo.cx/img206/4215/29apr2428rz.th.jpg 


Front left corner... I'm going to put the speakers behind a proscenium false wall, built after carpet is installed (to simplify the carpet installation and so I can change the design if I build a larger front stage)..
http://img242.exs.cx/img242/7135/29apr2656cz.jpg http://img242.echo.cx/img242/7135/29apr2656cz.th.jpg 


The door in the center is the main entry. It's a solid core door... very quiet when closed, plus I'll be adding weatherstripping seals. The door on the right is storage under the stairs. Both doors will be painted black.
http://img242.echo.cx/img242/348/29apr2678rs.jpg http://img242.echo.cx/img242/348/29apr2678rs.th.jpg 


My bar ledge with trim...
http://img130.echo.cx/img130/7522/29apr2731rx.jpg http://img130.echo.cx/img130/7522/29apr2731rx.th.jpg 


I'll be building the full bar after the carpet is installed.


I hope to finally re-hang the projector tomorrow.
Quote:

_Originally posted by cmjohnson_
*It's been so long I've completely forgotten and I'm too lazy to sort through 37 pages to find out....what PJ are you going to hang in there?


CJ*
The short answer is the same as last month...
Quote:

_Originally posted by cmjohnson 03-14-05_

So I don't have to search 31 pages of this, would you remind me of what

projector you're going to be using?


CJ
Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence 03-14-05_

M8501 with new tubes, plus a magic touch from MP 
But the long answer depends on whether my 9" LC Ampro 4200 with minty looking tubes proves competitive. And I'm also putting those other new tubes I have in my 1208s/2, so it could be a contender in a few months, too. But for now, after buying and trying 20 projectors, I'm just excited to get back to my trusty Marquee.


----------



## CZ Eddie

I've gotta ask. Why not consolidate those 20 projectors on eBay and get a single modded and quieted 9500 instead?


Your HT is really, really looking *nice* btw.


----------



## Clarence

They're like strays that followed me home over the last couple of years. I plan on thinning that down the pile to about 5 in the next month. I'll keep the M8500, (2) M8000's, 1208s/2, and 4200 until I get a chance to do some tube swaps and side-by-side comparisons.


They're piled up in storage and I've been too busy with HT construction and other stuff (and generally just too lazy) to mess with them.


But now that I have a screen and an empty room to set them up in for pictures, I'll list them on videogon... Ampro 3400/3600, BG808, NEC 6PG, (2) ECPs [I'll give these to my neighbors], NEC 1200, (2) 7200's, and (2) 1031's.


The others I've already sold or given away.


Here's an animated, clockwise series of pictures to try to depict the layout...
http://img241.echo.cx/img241/7773/htanim5dg.gif 


I think I'll go pull a CRT from the pile and set one up in there now just for fun...


----------



## Person99

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*(2) ECPs [I'll give these to my neighbors]*
I gotta move to your neighborhood!


----------



## Clarence

Wow.


It's like falling in love all over again.


After too many months without a HT, I just did a quick setup of one of my Marquees. I turned it on it's side in the storage room, lifted it onto one of my son's skateboards, wheeled it into the theater, lifted it onto a study desk (yes, they're still as heavy as I remembered), did a quick optical focus, a quick guided setup, a quick G2... I even did a quick scan reversal for table mount even though I'm ceiling mounting it tomorrow.


I put in my demo disk... the sound, the picture... wow.


It's just beautiful.


I sat there grinning and then decided to check contrast... it was only at the default of 30. I cranked it up to 40 and 50... wow. But as usual, I keep it at 40.


I was tempted to give the room the true test and pump up the volume to max while the rest of the family is sleeping, but (especially since the inlaws are here this weekend) I decided to keep it below the already proven "rattle the dishes in the china cabinet" level, which is foolishly loud.


A couple of quick notes...

- anybody that's worried about the time spent setting up a CRT from scratch should rest assured... I went from full reset to jaw-dropping in a matter of minutes.

- anybody that's using floor/table mount... you've got to find a way to put that baby on the ceiling. I can't wait to hoist it on chains tomorrow.

- I'm getting some slight reflection from the chair rail on the side walls... dark mahogany with a satin finish, but I might have to buff it and scuff with the sanding pad.

- The surround localization with this Linacoustic sound treatment is incredible... I've been listening to concerts all week and have enjoyed the crowd noise effects, but with regular movie clips, the aural spatial effects are incredible.


----------



## blipszyc

Great job! Looks awesome.


----------



## CMRA

Clarence,

Stop torturing us...and go paint that white service room door.

And ...ENJOY.

Thanks for the journey. CMRA


----------



## CZ Eddie

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*I'll keep the M8500, (2) M8000's, 1208s/2, and 4200 until I get a chance to do some tube swaps and side-by-side comparisons.*
Yikes, thats about enough to buy a G90 right there.


Heck, I bet CMJohnson would do a straight swap for his new-tube 9500.


----------



## Belcherwm

Clarence,


You have to be psyched! You are actually starting to get me motivated to do some trim work on my room that I "finished" a year ago.


Are you going to put some type of doors on the AV rack, front or back?


How does your center sound? Do you have it angled down?


----------



## Clarence

I'm really psyched... I'd really forgotten how beautiful the picture was. I stayed up late just staring at it. Then I woke up early and started working down there again... I removed the ivory switch plates around the dimmer and cut out my own from tile board. I cut out matching squares of fabric and glued it to the surface. Now I'm staining some wood dimmer knobs.


I don't plan on putting doors on the AV rack... there's a 2' bumpout and soffit before the equipment room , and the recessed rack is just out of view from the seating area.


I think the center channel sounds good up there. I havent angled it down yet, but I probably will put a 1x2 under the back edge. I'm going to hoist the Marquee today and then probably drag my Berks down there again so I can listen while in the seated sweet spot.


----------



## Doug Baisey

Clarence,

On the doors can you make the main entry open out instead of back into the other door? You could then hinge the other on the other side allowing better access to that room from the theater. This would allow panic hardware to be used on the main door and a neat affect, should clear.


What color carpet are you planning? This came out real nice so far and you have it well documented. Doug


----------



## Clarence

I might try reversing the main door, Doug... we just hung the doors a couple of days ago and access to the closet under the stairs is a pain because I have to close the main door to open the closet door. I don't think it'll be much of a problem when things settle down, but right now I have a pile of tools in there and I'm frequently needing access. That door isn't trimmed yet, so it would only take a couple of hours to spin it around.


Here's a closeup of the carpet I ordered next to the wall fabric.


----------



## Doug Baisey

Clarence,

I like the carpet selected, looks nice. Yes, now would be the right time to switch the door, never know when you have to 'panic' but it seems like it would be a good idea. I havent been following all of this but did check it out earlier. Good 'coffee' reading. Doug


----------



## Person99

What I like about your design is that it has a nice "theater" feel, yet done it a way that will likely blend with the rest of the house. Those are my favorite theater designs.


Now, it seems like you are motivating me to perhaps do a little more to my room!


Dave


----------



## cmjohnson

Quote:

_Originally posted by CZ Eddie_
*Yikes, thats about enough to buy a G90 right there.


Heck, I bet CMJohnson would do a straight swap for his new-tube 9500.*



Hmmm......interesting idea.

Well, suddenly, my 9" tube situation is better than it was,

so even the lesser of the two projectors has a set of tubes that would

swear was brand spanking new and if I tiold you they were, you'd believe

me even after a very thorough inspection, both operating and not,

with lenses on or off. But they actually have a bit less than 3000 hours on

them.


Plus I just scored two NOS P19s from an incomplete AmPro 4300 (factory

test unit) and these tubes have no time on them as far as I can tell.

They're perfect. I've swapped one into the LC cell that my beam scored

red was in, and when this job is finished, I'll swap the blue one the same

way. (Also have a beam scored blue to come out.) And then I'll send out

the beam scored tubes to VDC. Maybe they'll even give me some credit

toward a new green P19. If I had that, I'd have a pair of 9500s with

perfect, new tubes.


CJ


----------



## Larry Fine

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*I can't wait to hoist it on chains tomorrow.*
Clarence, have you considered borrowing your friend's panel lift again?


----------



## Clarence

The drywall lift seemed pretty floppy with a single sheet of sheetrock.


I've done the chain technique a dozen times... works fine, I can do it solo, and I feel comfortable knowing that at least 3 chains are supporting the projector at any time, it just takes 15-20 minutes.


But I've got another problem to worry about now... we connected the outlets and turned on the breakers... 3 of the receptacles are dead:

- left wall by the stairs

- behind the left front speaker

- behind the right front speaker

so I have to figure out how to trace the circuit.


----------



## Doug Baisey

Clarence,

The 701 toner kit can be used http://www.lashen.com/vendors/tempo/...bes.asp#pe701k you just disconnect the power and trace it using the probe.


One of my favorate tools. Your electrition may have one you can borrow. Doug


----------



## Clarence

While working on my projector, I looked down at the GFCI and realized that was the last receptacle in the circuit that was working.


I tried test/reset... it wouldn't trigger. But both plugs successfully light my tester.


I swapped out the GFCI with a regular receptacle. Everything works fine now.


----------



## Clarence

While working on my projector, I looked down at the GFCI and realized that was the last receptacle in the circuit that was working.


I tried test/reset... it wouldn't trigger. But both plugs successfully light my tester.


I swapped out the GFCI with a regular receptacle. Everything works fine now.


And I ceiling mounted one of my Marquees, another milestone towards completion...
http://img242.echo.cx/img242/2576/chains5ec.gif 


If you're observant, in the background you'll notice the poster lightbox is down because I was working in the breaker panel.


----------



## overclkr

Time for some screenshots Clarence once you have her dialed back in!!


Cliff


----------



## overclkr

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*While working on my projector, I looked down at the GFCI and realized that was the last receptacle in the circuit that was working.


I tried test/reset... it wouldn't trigger. But both plugs successfully light my tester.


I swapped out the GFCI with a regular receptacle. Everything works fine now.


And I ceiling mounted one of my Marquees, another milestone towards completion...
http://img242.echo.cx/img242/2576/chains5ec.gif 


If you're observant, in the background you'll notice the poster lightbox is down because I was working in the breaker panel.*
That's the bomb dude. No wonder why it took so long :^)


Cliff


----------



## PAW

Clarence

Most carpet installs I've seen, you have the baseboard installed first. Then the tack strip next to it. This make replacing the carpet easier down the road. If you install the carpet to the wall and then the baseboard over top of it, you'll have to removed the baseboard to replace the carpet.


----------



## PAW

Quote:

_Originally posted by Doug Baisey_
*Clarence,

On the doors can you make the main entry open out instead of back into the other door? You could then hinge the other on the other side allowing better access to that room from the theater. This would allow panic hardware to be used on the main door and a neat affect, should clear.


What color carpet are you planning? This came out real nice so far and you have it well documented. Doug*
What is panic hardware? The push bar that opens the door and runs the entire width of the door? If so, I've always found them to be noisy. I'd hate to hear that clank if someone left during the movie.


Rehanging the doors so they don't interfere is a great idea. We've got several doors that interfere in our house and it's a pain. I'm going to replace the one into the garage to eliminate the worst situation.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by PAW_

Most carpet installs I've seen, you have the baseboard installed first. Then the tack strip next to it. This make replacing the carpet easier down the road. If you install the carpet to the wall and then the baseboard over top of it, you'll have to remove the baseboard to replace the carpet.
OK, I'll call the carpet place and see if they have a recommendation one way or the other.


I studied the doors some more and I'm going to leave them as is for now... if I reversed the swing of the main entry, it would open opposite of the matching bathroom door right next to it. Plus, it was a special order solid-core door, so I couldn't return it. Especially now that one side is painted black. I kind of like the way it hides the storage closet door when you enter. I really don't think I'll be accessing that closet too frequently... it's just a place to stack a few spare projectors.


----------



## kal

Love the chain lift idea Clarence! Could you post a closeup of how you hooked the chain onto the PJ? Not sure what sort of hardware you used there...


Kal


----------



## Doug Baisey

Paw,

Its easy to find the door knob in the dark and when your hands are full.


Just a thought and it may add to the theater 'feel'. They do have quiet versions or this for residential, it has rubber bar stops and bumpers.


Kal,

I have used a one man come-along before, the type that has a ratchet handel. You just use chain across the feet inserts then put them back on. The come-along has about 20' of cable and a hook, the ratchet has a hook on that end also. You can get these a Home Depot for about $25 and rated at 800lbs. Just ratchet it up. Doug


----------



## Doug Baisey

Clarence,

You could do it later, you would need to take the jamb out and turn it around also. I have done this before with a saws-all and just cut the nails flat at the back of the jamb. No damage that way. Doug


----------



## Z-Photo

Clarence,


I have some Army training in OH in June (week of the 13)

- I could swing by the weekend before or after.


Pete


----------



## Clarence

Or both weekends...


Come on up any time... the movies have started... we watched Incredibles Sunday night. I watched Kill Bill last night. The sound in this HT is frickin' incredible.


----------



## shiznit

wow that's quite the chain lift you got going there...you couldn't just get a couple of friends to help you mount the projector?


----------



## Clarence

I've done the "couple of friends" technique before. Even with 3 or 4 guys, there's no easy place to hold each corner and I always have this uneasy feeling that someone's corner could slip.


Feel free to lift your projectors any way you like. This is the way that works for me... safe, strong, cheap, and only takes 15-20 minutes to do it solo.


----------



## cmjohnson

Any lift or hoist system that allows one person to mount or dismount the

projector without help is a wonderful thing. Doing it purely by musclepower,

with ANY number of participants, is at best a scary proposition and it can be

positively frightening.


CJ


----------



## garyfritz

I might have to try the chain lift next time. I used the "long threaded rod to a platform, spin up the nuts under the platform" method. It worked, but it was NOT easy. Couldn't have done it myself, at least not in under an hour or more.


----------



## shiznit

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*I've done the "couple of friends" technique before. Even with 3 or 4 guys, there's no easy place to hold each corner and I always have this uneasy feeling that someone's corner could slip.


Feel free to lift your projectors any way you like. This is the way that works for me... safe, strong, cheap, and only takes 15-20 minutes to do it solo.*
Yes I do lift my projectors the way I like, thanks. My way is also safe, strong, (I have really tough friends who have great balance and grip because they actually work for a living and don't sit on their *** all day long posting on avs forums.  ) cheap (costs me a few beers) and only takes 3 minutes to do it and I have the company of friends to enjoy after it is all said and done.


I agree with overclkr, lets see some screenshots.


----------



## CaspianM

Quote:

_Originally posted by shiznit_
*Yes I do lift my projectors the way I like, thanks. My way is also safe, strong, (I have really tough friends who have great balance and grip because they actually work for a living and don't sit on their *** all day long posting on avs forums.  ) cheap (costs me a few beers) and only takes 3 minutes to do it and I have the company of friends to enjoy after it is all said and done.


I agree with overclkr, lets see some screenshots. *
Did you really expect him to put up a picture showing four guys lifting his PJ? I didn't get the point of your post. There is no substitute for a good technique and/or tool. This way he can unload and load the PJ as often with no stigma attached.


----------



## penticton102

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*I've done the "couple of friends" technique before. Even with 3 or 4 guys, there's no easy place to hold each corner and I always have this uneasy feeling that someone's corner could slip.


Feel free to lift your projectors any way you like. This is the way that works for me... safe, strong, cheap, and only takes 15-20 minutes to do it solo.*



the chain method worked really well with me also, hoisting a 1271q(165lbs) to the ceiling by myself and had it hung in about 20 minutes. don,t have to look any further than that IMHO......


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by shiznit_

Yes I do lift my projectors the way I like, thanks. My way is also safe, strong, (I have really tough friends who have great balance and grip because they actually work for a living and don't sit on their *** all day long posting on avs forums.  ) cheap (costs me a few beers) and only takes 3 minutes to do it and I have the company of friends to enjoy after it is all said and done.
This other thread is probably a better place to discuss different techniques for hoisting and mounting a CRT:
How to lift CRT up to ceiling mount 


I merely wanted to note this milestone in my HT progress.


----------



## Doug Baisey

Clarence,

Whens the next pictures coming? What was the problem at first with the projector and is it resolved. Thanks, Doug


----------



## Clarence

I was going to wait until the carpet was installed before I post any new pictures.


A local forum member has a wide angle lense on his digicam and offered to take some shots, too.


Not too much to report since the last pictures... I painted the doors black (they look nice) and I painted the switch plates black (with stained knobs on the dimmers to match the rest of the trim). And I moved the Berkline recliners in. So I've been enjoying movies the last 3 nights 


Somehow during the hoist, I got a loose connection in my neckboards, but after swapping the red and blue and reseating, everything is running fine. And I ran my nicest RGBHV cable through the ceiling conduit.... very nice. No visible cables at all.


I'll post a couple of quick shots tonight.


Remaining tasks:

- one more door to trim out... the main entry door doesn't have enough room along the sides for the 3" trim, so I have to cut some custom 1.5"-2" casing strips. I haven't decided whether to wrap them with wall fabric or stain them.

- stain baseboards

- install bass shakers under chairs

- carpet installation (they're also carpeting my 10" riser separately, so I'll be able to move it forward or back a few feet if I ever want to)

- install baseboards

- final inspection

- build bar


Then between now and Christmas, I'll upgrade my receiver from 5.1 to 7.1 (probably this one ) and get some side surrounds (already wired), probably dipoles


----------



## 316

LOL, you are just getting back into movie watching and I am on my way out for a while 


My last movies before I put the HT in storage this weekend will be "A Series of Unfortunate Events" and "Primer" I've been waiting for "A Series of Unfortunate Events" for some time now. Hope it was worth the wait!


Can't wait to see your carpet....


BTW, I've had my VSX-14 for years and its been trouble free. I've been wanting to upgrade it for some time, thanks for that link!


----------



## Clarence

Hope you enjoy "A Series of Unfortunate Events" more than I did... my 9 year old son buys and reads those books as soon as they come out. And we had to see the movie on opening weekend. I usually like Jim Carrey, but Ugh. And the story was weak.


I was disappointed to see that my wife bought the DVD, but as long as they like it, I guess that's all that matters. They also bought "National Treasure" which wasn't bad, the kids watched it in the HT yesterday afternoon with friends.


We're 6 months behind on DVDs, so I joined blockbuster by mail. Tonight's movie will be "Friday Night Lights" or "Stepford Wives" (I'll watch anything with Nicole Kidman)


----------



## pcgeek

FWIW, you should be able to do the final Loudoun inspection any time you want to now. They don't care about the carpeting and other "pretty stuff". The electrical guy will just go through and ground test all of your outlets, check GFCI, makes sure that everything is grounded correctly and looks pretty closely at any sconce lighting to see how it is mounted to the wall. HVAC guy really doesn't do a whole lot (actually, not really sure he did anything but look and give me a sticker) and the building guy just makes sure the walls are in place and that you have the other stickers (for me he also had to test the smoke alarm because I did a bedroom while I was at it). Had the theater inspected before it was even really a "theater" (pre-projector, platform, equipment) and it went really smoothly.


----------



## 316

Moulin Rouge... on the netflix waiting list for NT


----------



## Clarence

Any EE's (or Circuits 101 students) out there?


I finally hooked up my first Aura Pro bass shaker under one of my Berk recliners. Wow!


But the rest of them will be more challenging... can someone markup this diagram with red and black lines to suggest the best way to connect these (I numbered the red and black connectors if it's easier to describe in words).

http://img129.echo.cx/img129/8/shakers5qa.gif 


I have an 8 ohm subwoofer output on my amp.

I have 3 Aura Pro's (4 ohms) for each of my Berkline recliners.

I have 4 Aura 25W's (4 ohms) to put under my 4'x8' riser for the 2nd row.

I have an (8 ohm) subwoofer (my other subwoofer has it's own amp and is driven by a separate LFE signal output).


Thanks!


----------



## cmjohnson

How many channels does the amp have for sub duty? Just one?


How much power is available from it to the sub(s)?


How much power do the Auras require for each one?


I think that you will need to pick up a multichannel amp to drive those Auras.

How many and how much power, is to be determined yet.


Pairs of Auras, wired in series, will give a nice 8 ohm load to the amp(s).

One pair per channel.


CJ


----------



## Clarence

If it's too much for the single receiver, I also have an old Kenwood "KR-V7020" receiver from circa 1990.

100w/channel x4.


The back of the old Kenwood says:

A or B: 4~16 ohms

A and B: 8~16 ohms


My primary receiver has a separate subwoofer 8 ohm output (which is currently going to sub2) and a LFE output (which is going to sub1: the 300W powered 15" sub). Which output from amp1 would be best to use as input to amp2? I'd guess a splitter from LFE would work? Split1 going to big sub1 and split2 going to amp2 for the shakers?


So if I send the LFE channel from my main A/V receiver and send it to the Kenwood for the shakers, how should I wire them?


Additional consideration... when I pre-wired, I ran 3 in-wall wires from the A/V rack to the seating area for the shakers (for the front row recliners; the 4 shakers for the 2nd-row riser were a recent addition). And separate wires to sub1 and sub2.


So if I add the 2nd amp to the stack just for the shakers, how should I hook up the wires?


Is this OK?...


wire1 (A left) sub2

wire2 (A right) 3 aura pros in front row

wire3 (B left) left 2 auras in riser

wire4 (B right) right 2 auras in riser


----------



## cmjohnson

Do you understand series, parallel, and series/parallel wiring?


Presuming that you do, I would think that your scheme,


wire1 (A left) sub2

wire2 (A right) 3 aura pros in front row (wire them in series for a 12 ohm load. Do not wire them in parallel as you will have a 1.3 ohm load and your amp will fry!)

wire3 (B left) left 2 auras in riser (Wire in series for 8 ohms.)

wire4 (B right) right 2 auras in riser (Wire in series for 8 ohms)


This will work...but will your amps generate the power these units need?



CJ


----------



## garyfritz

I suspect your HT receiver will have no trouble driving them, and if it does, the 100Wx4 receiver will do it without breaking a sweat. I'm driving 4 Auras with a 25-yr-old 20W NAD receiver and it's enough. Maximum short-term power per channel is 40W into 8 ohms, which is how I have them wired. (2*4 ohms on left & right.) So I'm sure your 100Wx4 amp will handle them with ease.


Yes, splitting the LFE signal into the sub amp & shaker amp will work fine. I have an RCA jack for LFE on my receiver, and I just got an RCA Y-connector so I could plug in both sub and shaker amp.


Your proposed wiring setup has 8 ohms in all channels except 12 in A right. I'm not sure if amps are fussy about having balanced loads. Those 3 shakers are likely to have a bit less "volume" than the others, since they'll be getting 1/3 of the signal instead of 1/2 like the others, but that's probably not fatal.


----------



## HK-Steve

First I wouldn't use the Subwoofer amplifier.


Use the Single 8 ohm subwoofer output on your amp to drive the 3 Aura Pro's (4 ohms) for each of the Berkline recliners.

They are connected in Series, 12 ohm total resistance.

You will have to turn the gain up on the channel a little to compensate for the higher resistance.


Put the old Kenwood "KR-V7020" receiver back into service to drive the 2 sets of Series wired Aura 25W's to put under your 4'x8' riser for the 2nd row.

The total for each set is 8 ohm each.


That way you don't stress the amps at all.


I have attached your pic with the wiring.


Hope this helps

Cheers

Steve


----------



## Clarence

Thanks guys. CJ, I do understand series and parallel, but I can only follow the calculation in one direction... if I have a circuit of resistors, I can slowly calculate it by redrawing it in the classic series and parallel format like I did as a freshman 20 years ago. My brain hurts if I even try to reverse engineer a configuration. The original challenge was trying to combine (7) 4 ohm shakers and an 8 ohm sub2 into a single 8 ohm channel. I still can't do it. That's why I went with computer engineering instead of EE. But it's a lot easier if I can get everything to 8 ohms with 4 channels.


I do A LOT better with a diagram like Steve's.


I added a few of the considerations mentioned above...
http://img239.echo.cx/img239/7456/shakers38pd.gif 


LFE output is volume independant, right? I'm thinking it may be better to drive all shakers with the Kenwood (amp2), so I can turn up the shakers even when I have the volume low (like at night) or turn them down if the novelty ever wears thin.


To simplify it, I had to add a resistor (shown in green). I will probably just buy another shaker since they're cheap, but would it also work to buy a 4 ohm resistor from Radio Shack?


----------



## JBJR

Hey Clarence,

Did you happen to do the Guy Kuo mod to all those shakers before you mounted them? It does make a difference. I just installed 4 pros into a love seat. Also don't worry about over driving them, I have mine hooked up to a Carver M-1.0 amp, I used to drive 4 of the regular shakers with the same amp, and no troubles.


can't wait for the next gathering to check your HT out. I have a bunch of the DTS demo discs I will bring with me so you can get some material off them for your demo discs. Everything on these are at the DTS full bit rate, they are awesome sounding.



John


----------



## Clarence

Thanks John. I hadn't seen Guy's mod, but I'll check into it.
Quote:

_Originally posted by Guy Kuo_
* Aura Bass Shaker Modifications for Deeper Bass Extension *


I have a pair of Aura Pro Bass Shakers attached to my couch (day bed actually). The shaking they produce is always a hit with visitors and vital since my wife hates loud noises and I love LF effects. I can't crank up my subwoofer, but the shakers keep us both happy. Anyway, they normally have a peak effect in the low 60's, just a tad too high for best effect. Some people use bass equalization to tame this peak, I decided to lower the resonant frequency of the shakers themselves.


The Aura Pro Shakers are easily opened with a #20 torx driver. Once opened one sees a three legged, plastic, spiral spider which supports the moving magnet/mass. The voice coil is fixed and on the periphery. The choice was to either increase the mass or make the spider more compliant. The legs of the spider are quite stiff, more than actually needed to support the mass. Since there was little room to add more mass, I trimmed the spiders thinner, narrower and slightly longer using a Dremel tool and cutter bit. Took off nearly half the thickness of the spiders and also cut into the periphery to slightly lengthen them. Obviously this may shorten the shaker life if too much plastic were taken off, but they are cheap enough to replace if one goofed. By the way, don't cut too far peripheral or you might damage the voice coil! The spiders still firmly support the magnet. Checking with the LFE low frequency sweep in AVIA the shakers now peak at just under 45 Hz instead of about 60. They also now produce output down to high 20's instead of giving up in the 40's.


I needed to turn down my Shaker amplifier down slightly as they are now more efficient. The effect is definitely deeper and fuller bodied. After going through the opening scene in Lost in Space and the helicopter scene in Matrix, I am convinced my hour of work paid off. Usual caveats apply. This definitely voids any warranty on the shakers, but they're pretty inexpensive. Just don't take off too much plastic. How much is too much has yet to be discovered. I probably took off just over 1/2 of the spiders' plastic mostly in their thickness and was careful to smoothly contour all my trimming. Maybe they'll break a bit sooner, but I suspect they'll do fine. In the mean time, they ARE more fun.


A few days later, I decided to further deepen the response of one of my Aura Pros by taking off even more of the spider and a bit of mass. After extra trimming of the spider and careful epoxying of heavy gauge solder to the magnet, the resonant frequency dropped to about 33 Hz. With the two shakers are differing resonances, shaking effect begins to intensify at 55 Hz and stays strong down to 28 Hz. There is now palpable effect down to 22 Hz. Trimming the spider even more does decrease the maximum intensity of shaking which avoids chatter since the mass can move further. It's still maxes out at much more effect than I'd ever want, but this is an issue which should be considered if one trims the spiders down to 1/4 of their normal size.


----------



## JBJR

Yeah, I do it to all of mine and they really rock!


----------



## HK-Steve

Yes, your revised diagram does work, and will also control all the shakers from one amplifier. Making system On/Off and volume level changes a lot easier.


I would buy another shaker, as the resistor would have to be very high wattage rating, as it needs to dissipate energy.


Then all you need to do is connect 2 sets of 2 shakers that connected in series.


The resistance would then be 4 ohm per channel on the amplifier.



Cheers

Steve


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by HK-Steve_

The resistance would then be 4 ohm per channel on the amplifier.
Wouldn't it be 8 ohms per channel? 4+4?


----------



## HK-Steve

Here is a pretty picture for you,



Cheers

Steve


----------



## JBJR

Yep, that's how I have mine wired.



John


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by HK-Steve_

Here is a pretty picture for you
http://img60.echo.cx/img60/2872/shakers44zt.gif
Dang Steve. Thanks. And I thought I was good at hacking up diagrams with copy/paste.


So using 2 channels is better than using the 4 speaker connections (A left, A right, B left, B right) on the old Kenwood?


----------



## HK-Steve

Yes and No,


you do get the 8 ohm from the 2 shakers in series, (4+4)

but once you add the second set in parallel, then the resistance becomes 4 ohms.




Cheers

Steve


----------



## HK-Steve

The amplifier wouldn't see any difference if you use both sets of speaker outputs.

The load is the same for the amplifier.


It would make the connections easier, as then you only have one set of cables per output, rather than having 2 sets of cables.



If you used the A and B speaker outputs, then you can always turn off a set if you need to.


Does this make sense???




Cheers

Steve


----------



## Clarence

Yep. It made more sense to me when I saw your diagram:
http://img60.echo.cx/img60/2872/shakers44zt.gif 


Is that pretty much the same thing that the A/B speaker selector switch does on my old Kenwood? (which is what you were explaining above as I typed)


----------



## HK-Steve

No worries,

Glad to help out.


I haven't commented on your room, Because I am jealous 

The progress you have made over the last couple of weeks is amazing.


and it looks AWESOME.





Cheers

Steve


----------



## Clarence

Thanks Steve. I'm just happy to have my precious Marquee projecting again! I was content with the unfinished room with the lights off. But my wife is ecstatic with the appearance. I'm happy with the way it ended up looking, but I'm more thrilled with the improved sound.


My youngest son is still bouncing off the walls (or now literally bouncing in his seat) excited about the one recliner (so far) with the aura shaker. Ever since we went over to CurtisG's house and sat in his Berks with real Butt Kickers, he's been asking me when we're going to hook ours up. Now he keeps playing the "Darla tapping on the aquarium" (Finding Nemo) scene over and over and over.....


I like the effect. My wife just rolls her eyes.


----------



## HK-Steve

"Darla tapping on the aquarium",

Yes, well my wife is the same, everytime we have guests over, you can see it running through her mind, OH NO,NOT AGAIN.


The Mines going off around the submarine are also very good. 



Just keep on enjoying.


Cheers

Steve


----------



## Clarence

Here's a picture of an Aura Pro bass shaker mounted under one of my Berkline 090 recliners.

http://img58.echo.cx/img58/5628/berkaura6kw.jpg 


It's just a 1"x6" board with 4 holes drilled in it for 4 small/long bolts (left over from installing the extended-depth power outlet receptacles), sandwiching one of the seat's support braces.


On the bottom, I put an Aura Pro, a DVD (for size comparison), and an Aura Standard.


----------



## overclkr

Clarence,


Where did you acquire the bass shakers from??


Cliff


----------



## chinadog

overclkr,

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....up_ID=536&SO=2 


Bud


----------



## Clarence

 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=299-027 

http://www.partsexpress.com/images/299-027t.jpg 

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=299-028 

http://www.partsexpress.com/images/299-028t.jpg 


The small ones are mechanically the same inside, but the Pro's add the cooling fins to increase power handling from 25w to 50w. I haven't done a comparison yet to see if there's a significant difference. But the smaller ones are dirt cheap (per pair).


----------



## Clarence

There was a question last week about where to mount these in a Berk 90, so here's a closeup...

http://img56.echo.cx/img56/5144/berk90aura3cj.jpg


----------



## Z-Photo

Screenshots - are now needed.


I would have thought that the wife would enjoy the bass shakers more.


----------



## Clarence

Before I take screenshots, I want to wait for the carpet so I can build the false wall next to the screen to put the speakers behind the black acoustically-transparent fabric.


----------



## Doug Baisey

Also waiting to see this Clarence, when are you planning for that to happen? Thanks, Doug


----------



## Clarence

I'm taking my son camping this weekend.


Carpet gets installed Monday morning.


----------



## Z-Photo

Cool,


I have now remembered why I do not work on cars much anymore.


Lets see -


Fuel filter

Oil change -

Air filter - Clean and re-oiled

Transmission filter/fluid.


On a 4-Runner all of the above really suck - especially the fuel and trans filter.


I would much rather be in the theater - and will go there now. 


See you in a month Clarence.


----------



## Spelvin

Hey Clanrence, Have you done any mods to the bass shakers?


Guy Kuo has the instructions on his site:

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/acces...uykuo_mod.html 


From what I understand it vastly increases the low end range of them.


Thanks for all the pics and inspiration!

Noah


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Z-Photo_

Clarence,


I have some Army training in OH in June (week of the 13)

- I could swing by the weekend before or after.


Pete
I'll start planning on *my Open House for Saturday, June 11th*... say from 2pm-9pm. My 2nd annual "meet and geek". ( Last year's Meet and Geek is in the archives).


Everyone's invited.


Zip code is 20132 if you want to mapquest the general directions... basically go all the way to the end of the Dulles Toll Rd (Leesburg) and head west 8 more miles to Purcellville. I'll send out a detailed map and collect RSVPs in a couple of weeks.


----------



## wvpinballguy

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*I'll start planning on my Open House for Saturday, June 11th... say from 2pm-9pm. My 2nd annual "meet and geek". ( Last year's Meet and Geek is in the archives).


Everyone's invited.


Zip code is 20132 if you want to mapquest the general directions... basically go all the way to the end of the Dulles Toll Rd (Leesburg) and head west 8 more miles to Purcellville. I'll send out a detailed map and collect RSVPs in a couple of weeks.*
Should we all bring beer? Mark


note to self:

check June work schedule

if scheduled for 6/11, change schedule


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by wvpinballguy_

Should we all bring beer?
Um, I usually say "there's no such thing as a dumb question", but...


----------



## Brian Hampton

Pretty much exacty 9 hours drive for me (each direction) so it's not likely but I would love to go.


-B


----------



## PAW

I emailed Aura Sound awhile back and ask:


1 - Driven at the same output (i.e., volume or watts) does the Pro Bass Shaker produce more vibrations than the Bass Shaker? I understand that the Pro will produce a higher peak force at it's max input power. I'm more curious that if they were both driven at lets say 5 watts, would the Pro produce more Lbf or N (newtons)?


2 - Besides from the fins on the Pro Bass Shakers, are there any internal differences between them and the Bass Shakers? Like a bigger piston, bigger magnet, etc.


Their answer was:


No difference at 5 watts same Lbf...fins dissipate heat better (stability in coil impedance) no difference in internal composition.


Comparing the Pros to non-Pros:

The internals are the same

Same output at lower inputs

Fins are just for cooling


So, unless you are driving the Pros harder, the non-Pros should work just fine.


----------



## garyfritz

Did you ask them what they thought of Guy's mods?


----------



## Belcherwm

Looking forward to dropping by Clarence. I really want to hear your room.


----------



## Clarence

Swing by anytime, Bill.


The carpet was installed this morning. Looks good. Time to install the baseboards.


----------



## Brian Hampton

What a co-incidence. My carptet was also installed today and.. it also looks good.


I wonder if other people generally do the carpet themselves seems like it's more common to just have it done and the labor wasn't much.


----------



## Z-Photo

Let me know when the Beer fridge is installed.


I might have a Ft Meade pick up favor to ask.


----------



## Clarence

Here are some pictures of the carpet and a few handheld screenshots with lights on.


Now that the room is 96% done, I should spend more than 10 minutes on focus and convergence.


The 3rd row bar stools are behind the imaginary bar...
http://img49.echo.cx/img49/8436/9may03844nt.jpg http://img49.echo.cx/img49/8436/9may03844nt.th.jpg 

http://img44.echo.cx/img44/8994/9may03890cq.jpg http://img44.echo.cx/img44/8994/9may03890cq.th.jpg 


I painted the doors black, but I still need to paint the jambs...
http://img44.echo.cx/img44/1777/9may03938rr.jpg http://img44.echo.cx/img44/1777/9may03938rr.th.jpg 

http://img44.echo.cx/img44/6566/9may03943yw.jpg http://img44.echo.cx/img44/6566/9may03943yw.th.jpg 


http://img44.echo.cx/img44/4206/9may04038hw.jpg http://img44.echo.cx/img44/4206/9may04038hw.th.jpg 


I'm going to paint the bolts flat black...
http://img44.echo.cx/img44/4418/9may04059yb.jpg http://img44.echo.cx/img44/4418/9may04059yb.th.jpg 

http://img44.echo.cx/img44/1691/9may04097hv.jpg http://img44.echo.cx/img44/1691/9may04097hv.th.jpg 


A close-up of the riser and 2nd row seats... I had them reupholstered with the extra wall fabric.
http://img44.echo.cx/img44/7347/9may04306bx.jpg http://img44.echo.cx/img44/7347/9may04306bx.th.jpg


----------



## Mark_A_W

If your at 96%, the last thing you should do is converge the CRT...


....or you will be at 96% forever.



Mark

84% for 2 years and counting


----------



## Larry Fine

Clarence, looks fantastic! One question:


How come we can see so much of the PJ?


----------



## Clarence

It's still hanging from the hoisting chains... not the real mount.


I need to remove the ACON... it will be going at least 6" higher into the recess and 6 more inches forward.


----------



## overclkr

Wow Clarence, is that a 4:3 screen I see?? Damn I'm impressed......


Cliff


----------



## Clarence

It's not really 4:3, it's more of a custom aspect ratio...


Here's the formula...

Take the height of the wall, subtract some space for the center channel speaker on a shelf above the screen.

Take the width of the wall, subtract some space for the side speakers.


I messed around with throw distance calculations for a long time before construction and the projector distance consistently came up with a structural double joist (for the basement stairs) right in the middle of where my projector needed to be for my desired 9' wide image.


So in order to recess it, I could either move it 3' in front of the double joist, which would've yielded a


----------



## Doug Baisey

Clarence,

A 'Moulin Rouge' lit poster would look good after 'The Incrediables' runs its course. Is that able to be changed from time to time? The room is really coming together nicely. Doug


----------



## Clarence

I'm going to build a 2nd light box on the left.

You can see the white recessed receptacle in this picture...
http://img49.echo.cx/img49/8436/9may03844nt.jpg http://img49.echo.cx/img49/8436/9may03844nt.th.jpg 


It's funny looking at posters and trying to decide what's "display worthy" ("sponge worthy" for you Seinfield fans).


I just ordered Madagascar:
http://i23.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/c4/cf/09_1_b.JPG 


And I already have:

- Small Soldiers (because my sons like that movie and I like the tag line: "Big Movie")

- Nemo

- That Darn Cat (just because it looks like my kids' cat)

- Wayne's World


They're all double sided (essential for backlighting).


I've been considering an Episode III poster... we'll see if the movie's any good.


And there's a specific Kill Bill poster I want (just the sword, not the Bride).


I built it to where I can swap out the poster just by removing 2 screws on one side . The next one I build might be hinged.


----------



## lukewarm

Did Madagascar: do well in theaters? If not, I swear it's because of that annoying whiny David Schwimmer guy.


Clarence,

Have you played with the Ampro at all? I am going to be getting a marquee/G70 or perhaps an Ampro again but I'm wondering how the 4200 compares to the Marquee before I make a decision.

Bruce said an ECP will compare nicely with a Marquee on a 6' screen. My experience with the Ampro on a 6.5 screen is that is absolutely trounced the ECP in terms of sharpness.


I hope this is'nt a hijack of the thread.


----------



## chinadog

Madagascar comes out on May 27 to a theater near you...


----------



## Belcherwm

Really like the way the fabric looks on your riser seats.


----------



## Clarence

Thanks. I originally planned on just using black fabric, but it seemed like too much (and I nixed my original plans for black carpet, black crown molding, and black chair rail for the same reason) .


My wife and I tried to reupholster one ourselves, but quite frankly, it ended up looking like crap. So I sucked it up and let a pro do it. If you look waaaaaay back at post #565 , you'll see what they used to look like.


Before:
http://img92.exs.cx/img92/7707/march1228jo.jpg 


After:
http://img44.echo.cx/img44/7347/9may04306bx.jpg http://img44.echo.cx/img44/7347/9may04306bx.th.jpg 


I originally hoped to get 4 seats in the 2nd row and 3 bar stools in the 3rd row. It looked doable on paper, but when I actually finished the room and put seats in there, it was too cramped.


After I went down to 3 seats wide, I was second guessing whether I should've just used 2 Berks for the 2nd row.


----------



## Z-Photo

Crap -


That is all the way back to page 29.


I vote for two berks for row two.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Z-Photo_

I vote for two berks for row two.
Too late now. 


Oh well, I've got my Berk in the sweet spot... front and center. That's all that matters. Row 2 is for kids.


----------



## Doug Baisey

Id just be standing up in the back, is that where the beer is? Doug


----------



## lukewarm

Nice job Clarence. I really like the wall fabric. How did you install it? Glue? That's a nice option compared to paint.


The whole room has nice cozy look to it.

We are close to buying a house and I'm trying to decide if a want an all out dedicated HT which theater seating etc or a more HT/ family play room with a double row of couches.


----------



## Clarence

The fabric covers 1" of acoustical insulation on top of the sheetrock. Do a search in the HT Builders forum for "Linacoustic". Great stuff for sound treatment. Not too expensive.


It's a bit of work, but it makes the room sound GREAT! It removes the reflections and echoes for nice, clean sound with great surround. I can play my music and movies louder and softer than ever before and hear every bit cleanly. Highly recommended.


Plus, the fabric covers a lot of flaws in your drywall, requiring only a single tape and mud coat, enabling me to do the sheetrock myself.


----------



## dokworm

What did you do about hiding joins in the fabric? At one stage I had fabric straight over the insulation before I got the sheetrock/gyprock up, and it sounded great


----------



## Clarence

To hide the fabric seams, the technique is to use 1"x2" furring strips... it's hard to describe and easier to show, but basically you staple the left edge to the back side of a furring strip, then wrap it around to the front side so you hide the wood. Then you stretch the fabric across the wall to the other side. You plan ahead and can have visible staples that'll get covered by the furring strip of the next section.


And then you staple along the top and bottom, pulling the fabric tight, but not too tight or you get ripples. The top edge of staples is covered by crown molding. The middle seam between the patterned fabric on top and the black fabric on bottom is covered with chair rail. And the bottom edge is covered with base board.


There are a couple of tricky sections where I just took a strip of wood or built a frame and wrapped it in fabric, then used the brad nailer to attach it to the wall. The brads go through the fabric so you can't see them.


Here's what the 1" Linacoustic looks like behind the fabric (but on top of the drywall)...
http://img62.exs.cx/img62/3345/linacousticgom1vj.jpg 


It's got great sound treatment values. And it gives the fabric a nice firm feel when you press against it... like pressing on a firm mattress.


----------



## Gary Murrell

I wish I could swing by on the 11th, being in eastern KY and in full on bum/no-job mode I thought man you would be close so I am going,

nope not close at all, it's 8 hours one way, but man I would love to meet everyone 


-Gary


----------



## chinadog

Clarence,


You might have posted this somewhere. I can barely see them in your pictures. What types of surrounds did you use?


Thanks,

Bud


----------



## Clarence

Gary, I've put an AC/DC concert clip on my 3rd demo DVD just for you.


Bud, right now I'm using some small JBL satellites, but I'm looking at some Polk dipoles/bipoles for the sides and rears when I get my new 7.1 receiver.


----------



## chinadog

Great, thanks. I assume no columns to hide them? When I first looked, I thought you went with in-walls, but after reviewing your pictures it was obvious you didn't.


Because of my room size, I'm leaning towards inwalls for the surrounds now, this way I won't lose any space with columns.


Bud


----------



## Clarence

I had plans for columns (they're in the original floor plan , drawn as brown rectangles), but after I finished putting fabric on the walls, it looked nice and clean without them.


You can see the wiring for the 7.1 side speakers... (the coil of wire between the sconces). I only have 5.1 hooked up right now.

http://img230.echo.cx/img230/7240/2005050903947nl.jpg 


The side columns would be awkward to place... the left side would have to be worked into the edge where the entry hall is and where the half-wall bar ledge is.


And the right column would have to account for the riser and for the bar (which is still unbuilt).


And both of these columns would be in the narrowest part of the room, so losing another 12" of width was too much.


----------



## Phil Smith

Your HT turned out REALLY nice Clarence! Great job!


----------



## Gary Murrell

Yes I must agree with Phil, that is one nice setup, I'm pretty sure I have never seen wall decor like that here and I have seen too many theaters to count


Very Nice


I see one problem Clarence, is that a orange tube you have in your 8500 


-Gary


----------



## Person99

Clarence,


Looks great. Congrats.


Just curious, why didn't you paint the PJ black? I did mine that way and I really like the way it looks hanging there. It makes it look a little smaller and stylish IMHO.


Dave


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Gary Murrell_

I see one problem Clarence, is that a orange tube you have in your 8500 
Good one 

Actually, that's still my M8000 hanging there until I get my modded neckboards for my M8501 with new tubes.


Improving the Red is on my list of projects... I'm leaning towards the ink drops in glycol technique. All the hype has over-inflated the cost of the NEC color-corrected lenses.

Quote:

Just curious, why didn't you paint the PJ black?
I'll probably do that, too. After I decide what projector is going up there for the long term. I've painted everything else black... air register/return, recessed light trim rings, doors, even the smoke detector that says "do not paint", so I just removed the cover and painted that and then I used a black sharpie marker on the mounting plate.


But after 6 months of construction, I'm just enjoying a breather while actually watching movies for a change. I'll take a couple of weeks off, then I'll start doing some final details to get ready for my Open House.


----------



## dokworm

Any chance of a close up of the fabric wall in the back corner - I want to see how that looks. I'm glad I'm not the only nutter going for fabric walls!


----------



## Gary Murrell

Clarence putting original sony colored glycol in the tubes is a piece of cake, the difference is staggering, I recently made a post of swapping the glycol:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=536986 


-Gary


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by dokworm_
*Any chance of a close up of the fabric wall in the back corner - I want to see how that looks. I'm glad I'm not the only nutter going for fabric walls!*
Gee, I don't know... I'm kinda shy about posting pictures...


Any particular feature of the back corner you're interested in?


Here's one with flash...

http://img131.echo.cx/img131/9112/corner7th.jpg http://img131.echo.cx/img131/9112/corner7th.th.jpg


----------



## Brian Hampton

Hey,


I hung my M8500 yesterday demo-ed the pic a bit and the orange reds are really getting to me. I've got to color correct this pj somehow. I was spoiled (for color) by my 1271.


If that car in the Cars trailer was supposed to be orange and the Incredables were supposed to wear orange suits then it might not be such an issue.



-B


----------



## cmjohnson

The gel filters I am (currently) using correct my red tubes to a truly

ruby red. It's great. I am planning to do a colored glycol tint job soon,

if my samples prove to be colorfast.


CJ


----------



## aspec2

Clarence


I have only seen one recessed screen. I liked it so much I build a shadow box around my "still leaning against the fire place" DIY. It shadows the light spill from the kitchen, dining room, and the doors to the deck.


Walt


----------



## Mark_A_W

LOL Clarence...you should have thinned the herd to raise some cash for a new Green for the XG you used to have...


----------



## Clarence

My XG135 was non-LC, so aside from the color-corrected lenses, I didn't see much benefit over a M8500. Plus I've got spares and experience with the Marquees.


----------



## hotguy8289

Clarence, I'm with a few others here.

Your wall treatment reeks of class. Nice.


----------



## mikemav

Hi Clarence-

Glad to see things are coming along so well. Everything looks great. I can't believe how much progress you have made since you and Jeff visited my house a few months ago. I'm still in limbo with the RP basement theater. Believe it or not, still waiting (since the last time you were here) for quotes from two contractors just to frame out and drywall the room! Amazing how unimportant one job is to these local contractors. They just don't call back, even after they take the time to do a site visit. Anyway, I'll put the open house on my calendar and hope I can make it. I have a feeling it might overlap with when I am in Vegas for the Infocomm AV trade show, but if I'm around I'll be there.


-Mike


----------



## Clarence

Mike, you can swing by any time. Bring the wife (if she needs any final convincing or if she's looking for decorating ideas... she might see a lot to avoid ) and bring your son if you want (I've got 2 boys and a kid friendly playroom right next to the HT)


----------



## Clarence

I found a stitching program that came with my digicam.


Click this small thumbnail for a larger picture...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-panoram.htm http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-panoram-sm.jpg 


And try this 400Kb Quicktime movie....

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-panoram.mov http://herndonrelay.org/avs/qt.jpg


----------



## Clarence

I screwed 3 Aura bass shakers under my 2nd row riser tonight... great effect. I also have an Aura Pro under each of the Berkline recliners in the front row.

http://img103.echo.cx/img103/4126/aurariser3sv.jpg 


3 in series for 12 ohms...

http://img163.echo.cx/img163/1006/aurariser25lw.gif 


Hooked up to an old Kenwood receiver, with an LFE splitter from my main receiver. Volume set at ~30%. I like it because I can control the shake level by using volume on the 2nd receiver. And I can use balance to reduce row 1 or row 2.


The green tape is leftover Integrity Gaskets (which I used between my sheetrock and studs/joists)... no rattle and it doesn't seem to reduce the desired rumble.


These things are great!


----------



## garyfritz

Clarence, don't your Auras have the cork pad on the mounting surface? Mine do, and I don't notice any rattle, as long as I have them attached firmly.


I may have to figure out some way to shake the whole couch, e.g. putting one Aura under each foot, rather than trying to hide them inside the seat cushions. I think that would be a lot more effective.


----------



## Clarence

The rattle was coming from my first method of attaching them... I used a 1"x6" and sandwiched them to one of the reclining mechanisms with bolts. As the bolts loosened, I got rattles.


After seeing how well they screwed to the riser, I changed the recliners and it works better to just screw them into the chair frame.


----------



## PAW

Clarence

What other poster is going in you 2nd light box? I've been watching and waiting for one to pop up in your pics.


----------



## Clarence

I've already got a few to choose from once I get around to building my 2nd frame .


This week I got the Kill Bill poster I've been looking for...
http://a763.g.akamai.net/7/763/1644/...img002/img.jpg 


And I got Madagascar:
http://i23.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/c4/cf/09_1_b.JPG 


So I'll probably alternate them every once in a while... one for my boys and one for me. I built the frames so they're easily swappable.


If Episode III is any good, that might be next.


----------



## Stepan

Hello Clarence,

your HT looks very nice, but there is one thing i do not understand: the seats in the second row, were not they meant to be mounted on some pillars or something to be more raised ? When they are mounted directly on the podium, would not people feel uncomfortable to have feet so high?


You can shorten the podium or if you just turned the podium 180 degrees, it would be the easiest way, but then it would collide with bar?


----------



## Clarence

Hi Stepan-


Here's a picture of the second row...

http://img44.echo.cx/img44/7347/9may04306bx.jpg http://img44.echo.cx/img44/7347/9may04306bx.th.jpg 


The riser is 10" high, with 4' of leg space. The seats are at a standard height. They're fairly comfortable to sit in, not as comfortable as the Berkline recliners in the front row, but I've watched an entire movie sitting in one.


I can't visualize how you're suggesting to shorten or turn the riser.


----------



## Stepan

This exactly is the photo I was looking at when I got the idea...

I just thought the "sitting plane" is in too small vertical distance from the top of the riser for comfortable sitting...


I thought these seats are in cinemas mounted on steps, your seat is not mounted on the same step you have got your feet on, but on the higher step...


Hey, Clarence, you must be pretty upset, everyone is happy with yout theater, everybody compliments, and now, such a disgusting fault-finder!  Sorry!


----------



## Clarence

Au contraire, I've always been open to critique... it's usually very constructive in these forums... I've changed several aspects of my design along the way based on other members' comments.


But I still don't see what you're seeing.


Here's another shot with me sitting in the 2nd row...

http://img286.echo.cx/img286/1986/2ndrow7ob.jpg http://img286.echo.cx/img286/1986/2ndrow7ob.th.jpg 


My legs are probably longer than 99% of the population, but it seems the base height is still sufficient. Other than replacing the seats with a different style, I still can't see how you're suggesting to make the "sitting plane" more comfortable. Are you just suggesting an additional mounting board under the bolts to raise the frames and seats above the riser?


----------



## Mark_A_W

Several???.....I seem to recall about 50 versions of the design of your theatre...


----------



## Stepan

Yes, something like that!


But from the new picture it seems that it is not needed!

I expected the "sitting plane" to be parallel with the riser, but there is angle...

It seems ok. Not sure if few inches high "riser on riser" would help...


I will call this week "week of solved mysteries"


----------



## Clarence

I called the cable company to get the connection in my HT. During construction, I ran the RG6 in the wall from my equipment closet to the outside, but they need to do the final connection to the outside lock box.


Anyways, customer service says they just got the new Motorola HDTV DVR's , so I'm getting 2! Woo-hoo! My wife's been missing her Tivo ever since we switched from dish to cable (for broadband), but I didn't want SD Tivo and I didn't want to buy the $999 HD Tivo, so these HD PVRs are a pretty sweet upgrade for $5.
http://www.adelphiasocal.com/hdtv/hd...es/dct5100.jpg 


And last week I got a killer deal on the Pioneer THX VSX-1014TX i wanted, so I finally upgraded from 5.1 to 7.1 (actually 7.8 if you count the 2 subwoofers and 6 bass shakers )
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pi...8VSXD1014K.jpg 


Tonight I'm moving my JVC HM-DH30000U DVHS , so maybe I'll try that transcoder...
http://www.jvc.com/Resources/00/00/32/13.JPG 


My wife has 42 neighbors coming over tomorrow night for our HT Open House.  Umm, we only have 8 seats.


----------



## PAW

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_

My wife has 42 neighbors coming over tomorrow night for our HT Open House.  Umm, we only have 8 seats.
We're going to have a 50th B-Day party for my wife. I told her 50 guests max. OH! 1 guest for each year. Else there would be 200 people over.  This way we'll only wind up with 75 guests.


----------



## Clarence

Hi PAW... congrats on that 9200. I saw that one... glad it went to a good home; hope it's in great shape for you.


Our crowd will be half kids... the same 10 families that hang out most weekends anyways. So I'll just pop in my demo DVDs and let people mingle in and out. We've also had a couple of make-popcorn-sit-down-and-watch-a-whole-movie nights with individual families.


Hmm, if everybody brings the 6-pack required for theater admission...


----------



## garyfritz

TWELVE-pack, Clarence. Hand-imported. 


HD PVR for $5, sweet. Must be nice to have a "real" cable company. We live about 200yds north of the Comcast coverage area, so we're stuck with Billy Bob's Country Cable Co. They haven't even managed digital TV or cable internet yet, let alone HD.


I'll probably get HD Dish sometime soon, but they don't give away the HD PVR's...


----------



## PAW

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*Hi PAW... congrats on that 9200. I saw that one... glad it went to a good home; hope it's in great shape for you.


Our crowd will be half kids... the same 10 families that hang out most weekends anyways. So I'll just pop in my demo DVDs and let people mingle in and out. We've also had a couple of make-popcorn-sit-down-and-watch-a-whole-movie nights with individual families.


Hmm, if everybody brings the 6-pack required for theater admission... *
Thanks Clarence. I'm excited. One piece of the puzzle.


BC (before children  ) we threw an Octoberfest party. We invited ALL of our friends. Figuring that only half would show. Admission was one 6 pack of German beer. Well that's a slow time of year for parties and the like and ALL of our friends showed up.  We had lots of left over German beer. This house had a BIG kitchen. I remember walking in there and it was wall to wall people. Interesting though, there were only a few people in the living and family room. Strange that every one hangs out in the kitchen.


----------



## Joshua Snyder

Clarence, what are you going to use as a transcoder with the Motorola HD boxes?


----------



## Clarence

I've tried several cheap transcoders and I've seen the MP-5 twice. Flawless.

I'll sell a projector off of my pile and invest in Mike Parker's transcoder :
http://www.wisdom-technologies.com/mp-5%20front.jpg 
http://www.wisdom-technologies.com/mp-5%20back.jpg


----------



## overclkr

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*Anyways, customer service says they just got the new Motorola HDTV DVR's , so I'm getting 2! Woo-hoo! My wife's been missing her Tivo ever since we switched from dish to cable (for broadband), but I didn't want SD Tivo and I didn't want to buy the $999 HD Tivo, so these HD PVRs are a pretty sweet upgrade for $5.
http://www.adelphiasocal.com/hdtv/hd...es/dct5100.jpg 
*
I have two of those as well and an installer decided to drop by one day with a third out of the blue and insisted my wife keep it so now I have 3 :^)


Not a bad gig at all. Do you have the On Demand service?? I really like that too.


Although the picture quality from VOOM was WAY better than Comcast, the HD DVR is really sweet and EASY to use......


Cliff


----------



## Clarence

I don't think we have On Demand. Is that PPV where you start anytime?


We haven't had the movie channels, but I might have to upgrade just to get more HD content.


----------



## overclkr

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_
*I don't think we have On Demand. Is that PPV where you start anytime?


We haven't had the movie channels, but I might have to upgrade just to get more HD content.*
It's actually included in the package but I do believe there is some pay content, but yeah, you start it anytime. Really sweet. HBO Originals like the Supranos, 6 Feet Under, etc, the full seasons as well as a buttload of other movies, showtime, cinemax, etc....


I got the 2 DVRS (trying to get them to come and get the 3rd but they seem to be oblivious :^)), a regular HD Receiver, cable modem service, and the best cable package they offer for 120 bucks a month. I was paying 60 bucks before for just the cable modem and 110 for VOOM, so all and all I think I made out ok.


Cliff


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarence_

I've tried several cheap transcoders and I've seen the MP-5 twice. Flawless.

I'll sell a projector off of my pile and invest in Mike Parker's transcoder
The VD-Z3 just failed miserably , too.


And I was hoping to have true HD at our neighborhood gathering tomorrow. But the transcoder isn't good enough to show off my DVHS and I don't get HD cable connected in the HT until Tuesday. But the Momitsu is still looking good.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

_Originally posted by garyfritz_
*TWELVE-pack, Clarence. Hand-imported. 


HD PVR for $5, sweet. Must be nice to have a "real" cable company. We live about 200yds north of the Comcast coverage area, so we're stuck with Billy Bob's Country Cable Co. They haven't even managed digital TV or cable internet yet, let alone HD.


I'll probably get HD Dish sometime soon, but they don't give away the HD PVR's...*
Yep, you paid double and didn't even get to see a movie (did I even have drywall up?), so you and your family have a lifetime pass anytime you're in the neighborhood.


As much as everybody complains about their cable company, I've been pretty satisfied with Adelphia for the first 6 months. Knock on wood, the TV and broadband haven't gone out more than a few moments. I couldn't stand the DishTV compression macroblocking we had for 5 years prior.


Wireless around the whole house is cool... I just got a new laptop at work with built-in wireless card (and dual-layer DVD+-RW and 2Gb RAM... Dell M70 ), so I'm in the HT right now watching David Gilmour, trying to type by the glow of the 1920x1200 screen.


----------



## garyfritz

'Course, you did also FEED us, so I felt we got a good deal.  But I'll take you up on the offer if we're ever in town again.


Nope, it was just studs and Integrity Gaskets when we visited.


1920x1200!! Holy smokes that's a lot of pixels on a laptop screen. I run 1600x1200 on my 19" monitor and most people can't read it...


----------



## Clarence

The neighborhood premiere went well... we had 41 out of 42 show up... one of our friends got caught in airline delays.


The room was a big hit... I cycled through my demo DVD's... my latest concert demo DVD drew a crowd... lots of great tunes from the last 20 years. The adults were mesmerized while the kids ran in and out. The seats' bass shakers are great for music, too. But then I put in the LFE demo DVD and really showed what the bass shakers are for. Fun stuff!


I popped in "The Incredibles" and the kids actually settled down and watched the whole movie. We had 18 people in 8 seats.


The other big hits were the arcade games and the pepsi machine ( link )... I set the games for 99 credits and I installed a free credit button on the pepsi machine. And I stocked one of the selections with beer... too bad it can't dispense import/microbrew bottles.


I can't wait for HD cable/PVR to be installed on Tuesday.


----------



## hotguy8289

Wow! I guess I am really happy for you. That's what all the labor and love is for. It's no fun if you can't share it. I know that's the day I'm waiting for, when it's done and you can ask your guests "Well, what do ya think?". I honestly haven't read this whole thread and forgive me if I'm rehashing stuff. I just noticed your second row seating fabric perfectly matches the wall covering! Amazing! It's all in the details, eh Clarence?


----------



## Clarence

My wife enjoys the "sharing it" aspect (I would call it "showing off"). And she kept turning up the dang lights everytime a new group arrived.


The real fun for me was the design, research, equipment selection, and hands-on construction. I always thought I was content with watching a movie in a dark, unfinished basement. But I'm enjoying the finished look and sound performance even more that I ever expected.


There are a couple of threads in the HT Builder forum about people's various reactions to elaborate HTs. We're a fairly close circle of friends and neighbors... most of these people are over here several times a week and they peeked into the HT as it was being built.


I think it's a lot easier when the budget is reasonable... and there are few secrets in this neighborhood. Most of these families have been exposed to basement projects costing 2x-20x more and would've been suitably impressed just to see a DIY finished room in the basement with a standard 32" tv in the corner for my total budget. When they see what can be done with the same amount of money, I don't think there's as much of an atmosphere of "showing off".


The other thing that was nice is that the whole HT is very kid friendly... the equipment is out of the way (the A/V rack is in an equipment closet and the projector is ceiling mounted... all wiring is in-wall). My screen is still just drywall painted with Kilz2 primer... I'll be doing a more elaborate screen in the near future, but I'll likely stick to DIY just so I don't have to worry as much about the potential for kids ruining an expensive, commercial screen. So it might've been harder for the neighbors to enjoy if I was constantly hovering over their kids saying "don't touch that!". And it's wife-friendly, too... she goes in there all the time and can turn on the projector, receiver, and Momitsu with single buttons enjoy a movie (or put one on for the boys) without being intimidated by the equipment.


Yep, the 2nd row seats were reupholstered with leftover wall fabric... it's pretty durable upholstery/drapery fabric, so it was well suited for the task. There are several details that I'm proud of... I like the way the bar ledge came out... it was really only meant as a half-wall to cover the exposed plumbing from the bathroom on the opposite wall. And I like the way the trimwork turned out on it. And I like the way the backlit posterbox hides the electrical panel... and having recessed receptacles on a dimmer so you don't see the powercord was a nice detail.


----------



## Clarence

My wife enjoys the "sharing it" aspect (I would call it "showing off"). And she kept turning up the dang lights everytime a new group arrived.


The real fun for me was the design, research, equipment selection, and hands-on construction. I always thought I was content with watching a movie in a dark, unfinished basement. But I'm enjoying the finished look and sound performance even more that I ever expected.


There are a couple of threads in the HT Builder forum about people's various reactions to elaborate HTs. We're a fairly close circle of friends and neighbors... most of these people are over here several times a week and they peeked into the HT as it was being built.


I think it's a lot easier when the budget is reasonable... and there are few secrets in this neighborhood. Most of these families have been exposed to basement projects costing 2x-20x more and would've been suitably impressed just to see a DIY finished room in the basement with a standard 32" tv in the corner for my total budget. When they see what can be done with the same amount of money, I don't think there's as much of an atmosphere of "showing off".


The other thing that was nice is that the whole HT is very kid friendly... the equipment is out of the way (the A/V rack is in an equipment closet and the projector is ceiling mounted... all wiring is in-wall). My screen is still just drywall painted with Kilz2 primer... I'll be doing a more elaborate screen in the near future, but I'll likely stick to DIY just so I don't have to worry as much about the potential for kids ruining an expensive, commercial screen. So it might've been harder for the neighbors to enjoy if I was constantly hovering over their kids saying "don't touch that!". And it's wife-friendly, too... she goes in there all the time and can turn on the projector, receiver, and Momitsu with single buttons enjoy and a movie (or put one on for the boys) without being intimidated by the equipment.


Yep, the 2nd row seats were reupholstered with leftover wall fabric... it's pretty durable upholstery/drapery fabric, so it was well suited for the task. There are several details that I'm proud of... I like the way the bar ledge came out ( picture ). It was really only meant as a half-wall to cover the exposed plumbing from the bathroom on the opposite wall. And I like the way the trimwork turned out on it. And I like the way the backlit posterbox hides the electrical panel... and having recessed receptacles on a dimmer so you don't see the powercord was a nice detail.


----------



## Clarence

My wife enjoys the "sharing it" aspect (I would call it "showing off"). And she kept turning up the dang lights everytime a new group arrived.


The real fun for me was the design, research, equipment selection, and hands-on construction. I always thought I was content with watching a movie in a dark, unfinished basement. But I'm enjoying the finished look and sound performance even more that I ever expected.


There are a couple of threads in the HT Builder forum about people's various reactions to elaborate HTs. We're a fairly close circle of friends and neighbors... most of these people are over here several times a week and they peeked into the HT as it was being built.


I think it's a lot easier when the budget is reasonable... and there are few secrets in this neighborhood. Most of these families have been exposed to basement projects costing 2x-20x more and would've been suitably impressed just to see a DIY finished room in the basement with a standard 32" tv in the corner for my total budget. When they see what can be done with the same amount of money, I don't think there's as much of an atmosphere of "showing off".


The other thing that was nice is that the whole HT is very kid friendly... the equipment is out of the way (the A/V rack is in an equipment closet and the projector is ceiling mounted... all wiring is in-wall). My screen is still just drywall painted with Kilz2 primer... I'll be doing a more elaborate screen in the near future, but I'll likely stick to DIY just so I don't have to worry as much about the potential for kids ruining an expensive, commercial screen. So it might've been harder for the neighbors to enjoy if I was constantly hovering over their kids saying "don't touch that!". And it's wife-friendly, too... she goes in there all the time and can turn on the projector, receiver, and Momitsu with single buttons enjoy and a movie (or put one on for the boys) without being intimidated by the equipment.


Yep, the 2nd row seats were reupholstered with leftover wall fabric... it's pretty durable upholstery/drapery fabric, so it was well suited for the task. There are several details that I'm proud of... I like the way the bar ledge came out:
http://img44.echo.cx/img44/8994/9may03890cq.jpg http://img44.echo.cx/img44/8994/9may03890cq.th.jpg 

It was really only meant as a half-wall to cover the exposed plumbing from the bathroom on the opposite wall. And I like the way the trimwork turned out on it. And I like the way the backlit posterbox hides the electrical panel... and having recessed receptacles on a dimmer so you don't see the powercord was a nice detail.


----------



## Clarence

My wife enjoys the "sharing it" aspect (I would call it "showing off"). And she kept turning up the dang lights everytime a new group arrived.


The real fun for me was the design, research, equipment selection, and hands-on construction. I always thought I was content with watching a movie in a dark, unfinished basement. But I'm enjoying the finished look and sound performance even more that I ever expected.


There are a couple of threads in the HT Builder forum about people's various reactions to elaborate HTs. We're a fairly close circle of friends and neighbors... most of these people are over here several times a week and they peeked into the HT as it was being built.


I think it's a lot easier when the budget is reasonable... and there are few secrets in this neighborhood. Most of these families have been exposed to basement projects costing 2x-20x more and would've been suitably impressed just to see a DIY finished room in the basement with a standard 32" tv in the corner for my total budget. When they see what can be done with the same amount of money, I don't think there's as much of an atmosphere of "showing off".


The other thing that was nice is that the whole HT is very kid friendly... the equipment is out of the way (the A/V rack is in an equipment closet and the projector is ceiling mounted... all wiring is in-wall). My screen is still just drywall painted with Kilz2 primer... I'll be doing a more elaborate screen in the near future, but I'll likely stick to DIY just so I don't have to worry as much about the potential for kids ruining an expensive, commercial screen. So it might've been harder for the neighbors to enjoy if I was constantly hovering over their kids saying "don't touch that!". And it's wife-friendly, too... she goes in there all the time and can turn on the projector, receiver, and Momitsu with single buttons and enjoy a movie (or put one on for the boys) without being intimidated by the equipment.


Yep, the 2nd row seats were reupholstered with leftover wall fabric... it's pretty durable upholstery/drapery fabric, so it was well suited for the task. There are several details that I'm proud of... I like the way the bar ledge came out:
http://img44.echo.cx/img44/8994/9may03890cq.jpg http://img44.echo.cx/img44/8994/9may03890cq.th.jpg 

It was really only meant as a half-wall to cover the exposed plumbing from the bathroom on the opposite wall. And I like the way the trimwork turned out on it. And I like the way the backlit posterbox hides the electrical panel... and having recessed receptacles on a dimmer so you don't see the powercord was a nice detail.


----------



## Belcherwm

Glad it went so well. It's always nice when you get "share" something that you've invested a part of yourself into.


You're going to have fun with your cable HD DVR's. Are you going to run the one in the theater through your VDigi for the time being?


----------



## Clarence

Woo-hoo!


Two Motorola DCT6412/2000 HD DVR's ( link ). With dual tuners and 128Gb storage! I was just expecting the 6408 model with single tuner and 80Gb. With the dual tuner I can record 2 shows at the same time and do PIP. Also has component and DVI, so I might also look at the DVI->VGA convertors.


It looks good even with the vdigi transcoder.


I'm ready for football season!


----------



## Clarence

Woo-hoo!


Two Motorola DCT6412/2000 HD DVR's ( link ). With dual tuners and 120Gb storage! I was just expecting the 6408 model with single tuner and 80Gb. With the dual tuner I can record 2 shows at the same time and do PIP. Also has component and DVI, so I might also look at the DVI->VGA convertors.


It looks good even with the vdigi transcoder.


I'm ready for football season!


----------



## hmcinema

Clarence,


I have to say you have put together a fantastic looking theater. I wish I had been able to start with an unfinished area like you did, I would have recessed my projector too. My future theater area is about the same layout as your's, I hope it turns out half as good. First I need to back a dumpster up and clear out the room - except for the extra projector that is. The fabric on the walls was a great idea.


----------



## Clarence

Thanks. I like the fabric on the walls, but the 1" of Linacoustic sound treatment right beneath it is probably my favorite feature of the room.


If anyone is planning to do fabric in their HT, please, please, please find a roll of Linacoustic duct liner... best $130 you'll spend.


I just did the MCACC (Multi-Channel Acoustic Calibration System) on my 1014 THX Select receiver ...

Man, that MCACC is pretty cool. It's like the Electrohome's ACON...

You put a microphone on a tripod in your sweet spot (i.e. my center Berkline recliner).

It cycles through each of the speakers with test tones and calculates distance, level, and Eq. It measures the reflectivity of the room and adjusts accordingly for multiple frequencies.

Then it shows you the results.


I thought it was pretty cool that it determined (accurately)...

Left front = 14'

Center = 13.5'

Right front = 13.5'

side Left = 6'

side Right = 5.5'

back Left = 12'

back Right = 11.5'

Sub = 10.5' (just in case you're really paying attention, the sub is no longer under my Front Right speaker like shown in last week's pictures, it's under my A/V rack until I build my false wall for my screen wall... that way my R & L fronts are at the same height.)


I also received my Definitive Technology center today... I'm going to go see if it should replace my Infinity center.


----------



## wvpinballguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Clarence*
(snip)

The other big hits were the arcade games and the pepsi machine ( link )... I set the games for 99 credits and I installed a free credit button on the pepsi machine. And I stocked one of the selections with beer... too bad it can't dispense import/microbrew bottles.


I can't wait for HD cable/PVR to be installed on Tuesday.
Clarence, it's a little late and off topic, but if your video games don't have dip switch settings for free play, a simple way do do it is explained at: http://www.therealbobroberts.com/ Mark


----------



## Clarence

Thanks Mark. Right now my boys just open the door panel and click (99 times) the paperclip thingy that the quarter/token hits.


I found a good link ( here ) about how to hotwire my Pepsi machine for free play. Works great.


----------



## hmcinema

I was thinking about the extra width that gets added to the wall when you add the 1" of Linacoustic. How did you handle things like the door jambs and outlet boxes? I know they make outlet box extenders. For the doors, did you make the jamb wider? I guess there would be furring strips along the top, bottom, middle and around the door for the moldings to attach to?


BTW, thanks for posting the pictures. My wife saw them and said "Is that someones house? Can ours look like that?" So we've gone from "YOU DID WHAT!? Those ugly, huge things are NOT staying upstairs!" when I purchased the projectors, to "OK, that's neat but can you get it out of the middle of the floor" when I showed her a converged image, to "how do we make our room look like that?" Thanks, your a lifesaver. Still have to figure out how to convince her that I need to keep the spare projector........


----------



## Clarence

Yep, I used extenders on the outlet boxes. Lots of good info in the HT Builders forum (actually, they split everything into multiple Builders forums now)... here are some builder's threads to get you started...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post5488938 

and
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post5273612 


Bring her to my open house on June 11th... I have a pile of projectors in the closet that'll make her think your single spare is sensible... or if she's smart, she'll realize that she should nip your habit in the bud before the infection spreads.


----------



## Doug Baisey

Clarence,

Did you ever get the front 'stage' done yet? Glad to hear its going so well, sounds like a real user 'family' friendly project. Like those new posters also. The receiver looks pretty 'smart' are these hitting the used market now? Not a bad price new either. Enjoy, Doug


----------



## Clarence

I've been having too much fun enjoying the HT and actually watching movies to work on the speaker/screen wall. But it'll be done by June 11th. Maybe this weekend.


I did a lot small details in preparation for the neighborhood premiere last weekend... painted the door jambs black, installed all the bass shakers, etc.


And yesterday I got the HD cable installed and did the speaker calibration.


I can't get over how good true HD looks.


That THX receiver is great, and as usual, I found a killer deal on it... The 1015 model just came out, which adds a 3rd component input. I planned on getting the 1015, but when bestbuy marked down the 1014 and I had a 30% off coupon for open box ( link ), the difference became $499 for the 1015 vs only the $200 that I paid for the 1014. So I figured I'd at least try the 1014 and decide in the next 30 days if it's worth twice as much just to add the 3rd component input. It's a great receiver... I think I'll just keep the 1014.


----------



## Joshua Snyder

Clarence, is there any interoperability with the HDDVRs and your D-VHS? I.E. can you connect the 2 with Firewire, and have the output from the D-VHS routed through the DVR? or record the mPeg stream from the DVR tuner on the D-VHS?


----------



## Clarence

Gary or gn2 are the guys to ask. I haven't played with mine much yet because it doesn't play well with my cheap transcoder.


But the DVHS has firewire and so does my DVR, so I'm hoping it's as simple as that.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Doug Baisey*
Clarence,

Did you ever get the front 'stage' done yet? Glad to hear its going so well, sounds like a real user 'family' friendly project. Like those new posters also.
Yes, I built the false walls for the front speakers last weekend and covered them with the black acoustically transparent fabric. I also put a black valance across the top of the screen. Looks really good. I'll try to take a picture later tonight... my 9yo is watching Harry Potter right now.


And I started building 2 more backlit poster frames. They'll be finished this weekend.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Doug Baisey*
Clarence,

Did you ever get the front 'stage' done yet? Glad to hear its going so well, sounds like a real user 'family' friendly project. Like those new posters also.
Yes, I built the false walls for the front speakers last weekend and covered them with the black acoustically transparent fabric. I also put a black valance across the top of the screen. Looks really good. Hard to take a picture because everything's black...

http://img114.echo.cx/img114/6581/speakercover1hr.jpg 


And I started building 2 more backlit poster frames. They'll be finished this weekend.


----------



## 316

Clarence,


Thanks for the link to Best Buy! 


I'm sure its mentioned somewhere in all the pages of your thread but I have a quick question, why is the screen all the way to the floor? Oh, and how tall are your ceilings??Thanks and sorry for the redundant question! 

Looks good btw!!!


3 weeks without a CRT PJ and counting......ugh...


----------



## Clarence

Ceilings are 8' high.


The screen wall is still just drywall with primer until I finalize the mounted projector... right now I've just got my original M8000 hanging on chains, but once I put the neckboards in my M8500, I'll mount it higher and a little closer to the screen.


Right now the mounting location is too far back, so the image is wider than I wanted... I had a double joist supporting the stairs exactly where I wanted to recess the projector, so I had to choose whether to put the recess a little too far back or too far forward. I chose too far back. So I'm getting about a little more than 10' wide image... I want 9' wide.


Once I remove the ACON sensor and mount the M8500 on unistrut I can move it 6" closer than where it is now. And if I build a real screen (maybe torus), I can build it out from the wall, closer to the projector. The final couple of inches I'll have to reduce the scan width.


So until I do all those final adjustments, the wall is just solid white.


It's such a cave in there with ZERO light surrounded by black and dark browns, so even the white wall is spooky black in dark scenes. And with constant width, 4:3 content, like the Eagles concert and Alison Krauss concert, pretty much fills the wall all the way to the floor.


----------



## Clarence

My ceilings are 8' high. Actually, after carpet, pad, and drywall, I have 93.5".


The screen wall is still just drywall with primer until I finalize the mounted projector... right now I've just got my original M8000 hanging on chains, but once I put the neckboards in my M8500, I'll mount it higher and a little closer to the screen.


Right now the mounting location is too far back, so the image is wider than I wanted... I had a double joist supporting the stairs exactly where I wanted to recess the projector, so I had to choose whether to put the recess a little too far back or too far forward. I chose too far back. So I'm getting about a little more than 10' wide image... I want 9' wide. For a 16:9 screen at 9' wide, I need 5' height. Half of that will be used above by the valance and center channel speaker.


Once I remove the ACON sensor and mount the M8500 on unistrut I can move it 6" closer than where it is now. And if I build a real screen (maybe torus), I can build it out from the wall, closer to the projector. The final couple of inches I'll have to reduce the scan width.


So until I do all those final adjustments, the wall is just solid white.


It's such a cave in there with ZERO light surrounded by black and dark browns, so even the white wall is spooky black in dark scenes. And with constant width, 4:3 content, like the Eagles concert and Alison Krauss concert, pretty much fills the wall all the way to the floor.


----------



## 316

You selling the Acon?


----------



## Clarence

I guess I should. Especially since it won't fit in the recess. And especially since there's a new "for sale" forum. It works great.


----------



## 316

Hmmm, can't seem to find your PM link to see what you are asking for it before you put it in the "for sale" catagory?


----------



## Clarence

They hid PM... you have to click on a forum member's name on the left side of a thread to get that menu option.


I hate pricing and selling... do you happen to have a PG green to trade?


----------



## 316

K, thanks...sent u a pm....


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Originally Posted by *overclkr*
Quote:

Originally Posted by *Clarence*
I called the cable company to get the connection in my HT. During construction, I ran the RG6 in the wall from my equipment closet to the outside, but they need to do the final connection to the outside lock box.


Anyways, customer service says they just got the new Motorola HDTV DVR's , so I'm getting 2! Woo-hoo! My wife's been missing her Tivo ever since we switched from dish to cable (for broadband), but I didn't want SD Tivo and I didn't want to buy the $999 HD Tivo, so these HD PVRs are a pretty sweet upgrade for $5.
http://www.adelphiasocal.com/hdtv/hd...es/dct5100.jpg
I have two of those as well and an installer decided to drop by one day with a third out of the blue and insisted my wife keep it so now I have 3 :^)


Not a bad gig at all. Do you have the On Demand service?? I really like that too.


Although the picture quality from VOOM was WAY better than Comcast, the HD DVR is really sweet and EASY to use......


Cliff
Cliff-


You've got to check this thread out:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=403695 

and
http://replayguide.sourceforge.net/dct6412/ 


The Motorola 6412 has FireWire output. I just recorded my first lossless hidef .ts from my DVR to my laptop!


I filled up the DVR's 120Gb hard drive in the first week and have had to delete something anytime I wanted to record something new. Now I'll just dump it onto the PC (at 10Gb/hour  )


I play it back with http://www.videolan.org/vlc/ 

It looks sweet! HTPC is going back into my HT.

Upscaled DVD is getting harder and harder to watch compared to true hidef.


----------



## overclkr

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Clarence*
Cliff-


You've got to check this thread out:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=403695 

and
http://replayguide.sourceforge.net/dct6412/ 


The Motorola 6412 has FireWire output. I just recorded my first lossless hidef .ts from my DVR to my laptop!


I filled up the DVR's 120Gb hard drive in the first week and have had to delete something anytime I wanted to record something new. Now I'll just dump it onto the PC (at 10Gb/hour  )


I play it back with http://www.videolan.org/vlc/ 

It looks sweet! HTPC is going back into my HT.

Upscaled DVD is getting harder and harder to watch compared to true hidef.
That's AWESOME big dog!! Now I have something to do with the extra 7 250GB drives I have laying around 


I'm going to try and capture the Pink Floyd Reunion this weekend on MTV now thanks to you. I wonder if you can transfer the captured files on the HD from the box to be played on the PC??


Cliff


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Originally Posted by *overclkr*
I'm going to try and capture the Pink Floyd Reunion this weekend on MTV now thanks to you. I wonder if you can transfer the captured files on the HD from the box to be played on the PC??


Cliff
Yes, you can capture it while re-playing a previously recorded event. You can't retrieve the .ts files directly from the DVR, you have to play it and capture it in 1:1 time.


Some channels have the encryption bit. Like HBO. The link above tells how to check to see if the channel has the encryption bit.


Isn't the Pink Floyd show only in SD on MTV?


----------



## overclkr

Yeah, but it would be cool to burn it to DVD to watch until the real DVD comes out in the fall.....


Did you get a chance to check out my room?? What do you think of the color? It's beginning to get real close now. Makes me VERY happy :^)


I will have some more music for you soon BTW...


Cliff


----------



## Clarence

Test MTV through firewire before the big day:
Quote:

Tune to a channel you are interested in recording from.

Enter DIAGNOSTICS page on the DCT6412 as follows with remote: Press Cable, Power off, Select, Select.

Scroll down to: d11 INTERFACE STATUS and then click right arrow to enter that module.

In 1394 I/O DEVICE section you should see ACTIVE PORTS=1 (indicating the Firewire connection is active) and look at 5C IMPLEMENTATION value. If it is something other than 0 this means 5C protection is enabled and you won't be able to capture that channel.

To get out of the Status Page click left arrow with remote and scroll down to EXIT and click Select.
Your HT is looking really good. I like the blue a lot. What's your carpet going to look like? I know you're stoked to have it almost done.


----------



## garyfritz

Sure wish Dish handed those things out like popcorn, like Comcast did!


----------



## overclkr

We picked out a dark blue carpet as well (not as dark as the walls). It's like a mini shag with specks of different colors in it. I also bought these to frame and hang on each side of my audio rack:

http://ebay.rockitrecords.de/picture...ouwerehere.jpg 

http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/04/4c/f1/a7_1_b.JPG 


And of course I HAD TO buy this for one of the movie posters I'll be hanging:

http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/mrartz/...score2_L12.jpg 


It's actually starting to get fun now 


Cliff


----------



## Clarence

Yeah, It's a lot better paying $5/mo for my DVR instead of $699-$999 for a HD dish box.


And when they come out with something new, you just take it to their office and ask for the new model. No charge.


----------



## Clarence

Wow. Vinyl. I guess for display only? Or do you still have a turntable?


"Say hello to my little friend."

I love it!


When's your bday? I'll build you one of my backlit poster boxes.


----------



## overclkr

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Clarence*
Wow. Vinyl. I guess for display only? Or do you still have a turntable?


"Say hello to my little friend."

I love it!


When's your bday? I'll build you one of my backlit poster boxes.
Um.... 11/21/1987??? 


I wish!!


Cliff


----------



## overclkr

whoops big dog, missed the first question.....


Yes I still have several turntables. My prize duo being a pair of Technics SL1200-MK2.


Cliffy


----------



## Tom.W

Hi Guys,

I recently recieved 3 most excellent test DVD's from Clarence that he played at his last gathering and all I can say is they are among the best transfers I have seen with an excellant match of Black level ! And great music also ! Thanks Clarence


----------



## Clarence

No significant changes in the last month or so... we've been watching movies every night. I still haven't replaced the neckboards in my M8500, so the M8000 is still hanging from chains instead of mounted in the recess.


BigMouthinDC visited last night and took these pictures with his wide angle lens...




















Pete plans on visiting next week, so I will get my 9" LC Ampro 4200. I'll try to do a 4200 vs BG1208s/2 vs M8500 side-by-side comparison this summer.


----------



## Kamel407

Whats that screen size again?


----------



## Clarence

I wanted 9' wide, but right now it's a little over 10'.


There was a load-bearing support joist right in front of my ceiling recess, so I had to decide whether to move the projector a couple of feet forward (which would've given me


----------



## Kamel407

I'd like to hear about it if and when you get a torus.


----------



## Clarence

OK, I'll try to remember to mention it if I build one.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Kamel407*
I'd like to hear about it if and when you get a torus.
OK, I'll try to remember to mention it if/when I build one.


----------



## chinadog

What, if I might ask, is a torus?


Bud


----------



## Kamel407

Quote:

Originally Posted by *chinadog*
What, if I might ask, is a torus?


Bud


Its a Ford Knockoff!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=517113


----------



## Marshall F

Clarence, do you plan on using the silverstar material?


Anyway, I'm pondering building one too, so let me know when you find the material for a dollar or two - maybe we can go in halvsies.


Marshall


----------



## Kamel407

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Marshall F*
Clarence, do you plan on using the silverstar material?


Anyway, I'm pondering building one too, so let me know when you find the material for a dollar or two - maybe we can go in halvsies.


Marshall
Marshall,


I just picked up 18 screen samples from DaLite including their "High Power" which is supposed to be lightly comparable to Silverstar, and lighter on the wallet.


I plan to do a comparison shoot when I get the MP-5


Of course, you're more than welcome to swing by and check it out


----------



## Ridebreck

Clarence, what are all of your inputs to your PJ that you're currently running, and how are you running them? You mentioned that you Moto. HD cable box is running to the Pio. receiver via component (DVHS too?). I'm planning on going to the HD cable route as well (just can't afford to drop $700 on a sat. receiver), but I'm about to pull my hair out to find a low-cost way to do it along with whatever DVD player I end up getting.


I keep telling my wife that it's all your fault.


----------



## Kamel407

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Ridebreck*
Clarence, what are all of your inputs to your PJ that you're currently running, and how are you running them? You mentioned that you Moto. HD cable box is running to the Pio. receiver via component (DVHS too?). I'm planning on going to the HD cable route as well (just can't afford to drop $700 on a sat. receiver), but I'm about to pull my hair out to find a low-cost way to do it along with whatever DVD player I end up getting.


I keep telling my wife that it's all your fault. 
I contribute my CRT findings to Clarence.

I was in the DIY Screens section and the Digital PJs under $2500 when I came across these picture of Clarence and his HUGE screen.

Everyone thought he was nuts then, I thought he was brilliant.

Now I reference the CRT Forum more than any other.

(And Clarence was kind enough to point me to a local reseller)

Always welcome to swing by my place if you ever hit disney.


----------



## Tedd

I doubt the High Power sample will let you see the very narrow viewing angle of the material. It is something to make people aware of, if they are basing a purchase decision on a small sample.


I'd rate a DIY Torus right up there (and slightly ahead) of the Silverstar and Studiotek 130 for a crt projection system. If Clarence builds a Torus, he won't just be mentioning it, he'll be raving about it. A nice advantage is the added brightness would let you go to a bigger screen.


----------



## Clarence

Motorola DVT6412
http://www.adelphiasocal.com/hdtv/hd...es/dct5100.jpg 

Pioneer THX VSX-1014TX 
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pi...8VSXD1014K.jpg 

JVC HM-DH30000U DVHS 
http://www.jvc.com/Resources/00/00/32/13.JPG 


And the Momitsu V880
http://www.momitsu.com/images/v880photo_s.jpg 


Running into a 4x Extron switcher (I also have a 8X Marquee switcher that MP is modding for high bandwidth). But I'll probably upgrade to the 1015 receiver because Pioneer added a 3rd component input and increased the bandwidth to handle hidef.


Then from the switcher to the transcoder (upcoming MP5).


Since I can backup the hi-def .ts files from my DVR, I'm going to get rid of the DVHS and replace it with a new HTPC. I've got the 2nd input on my VIM, so I'll run HTPC->HD15->breakout->5BNC->VIM2 (and keep the transcoder/switcher on VIM1).


----------



## Clarence

Motorola DVT6412
http://www.adelphiasocal.com/hdtv/hd...es/dct5100.jpg 

Pioneer THX VSX-1014TX 
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pi...8VSXD1014K.jpg 

JVC HM-DH30000U DVHS 
http://www.jvc.com/Resources/00/00/32/13.JPG 


And the Momitsu V880
http://www.momitsu.com/images/v880photo_s.jpg 


Running into a 4x Extron switcher:
http://www.extron.com/product/img/sw4arhvxi.jpg 


It works well as a component switcher and I also run the digital audio through the switcher's BNC, so my wife only has to push one button and everything switches (video with corresponding audio). I also have a 8X Marquee switcher that MP is modding for high bandwidth). But I'll probably upgrade to the 1015 receiver because Pioneer added a 3rd component input and increased the bandwidth to handle hidef. But I think if I run RS232 from the Marquee switcher to the M8500, I can power it up from the A/V rack instead of with the remote, which might be nice, especially with a good "power vs standby" indicator light so the projector doesn't accidentally get left on.


Then from the switcher to the transcoder (upcoming MP5).


Since I can backup the hi-def .ts files from my DVR, I'm going to get rid of the DVHS and replace it with a new HTPC. I've got the 2nd input on my VIM, so I'll run HTPC->HD15->breakout->5BNC->VIM2 (and keep the transcoder/switcher on VIM1).


----------



## Kamel407

So you plan to have 1 input to the MP-5?

I'll be utilizing both inputs, the NN and the HD-DVR.


----------



## Clarence

If I get rid of the DVHS, I could use the MP5's 2nd input, but then I'd have to use something else for audio switching anyways.


I need to upgrade my Momitsu, but I'm hoping to skip the NN and upgrade to the iodata coming out in September since it'll serve as a front end to my HTPC and will play hidef .ts files and DIVX HD.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Marshall F*
Clarence, do you plan on using the silverstar material?


Anyway, I'm pondering building one too, so let me know when you find the material for a dollar or two - maybe we can go in halvsies.
Quote:

Originally Posted by *Tedd*
I'd rate a DIY Torus right up there (and slightly ahead) of the Silverstar and Studiotek 130 for a crt projection system. If Clarence builds a Torus, he won't just be mentioning it, he'll be raving about it. A nice advantage is the added brightness would let you go to a bigger screen.
I haven't looked into the torus materials yet, I want to wait until I decide which projector I'm going to go with and what my final screen size will be.


I bought a roll of some material last year, I can't even remember what brand or gain it was. I'll have to look through my old posts. Maybe it was VS 1.5? Does anybody remember the stuff that was on videogon? But I don't think it's big enough, so it should make a good $100 test to decide if I want to build a 9' torus. Oh yeah, I've got a huge 12' Da-Lite snap screen, too. I might try a big torus test with that.


----------



## Ridebreck

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Clarence*
If I get rid of the DVHS, I could use the MP5's 2nd input, but then I'd have to use something else for audio switching anyways.


I need to upgrade my Momitsu, but I'm hoping to skip the NN and upgrade to the iodata coming out in September since it'll serve as a front end to my HTPC and will play hidef .ts files and DIVX HD.
What are you using right now as a transcoder, since I assume that the DVHS and HD DVR are both being fed via component? Or do they both have DVI-I?


I've had my eye on the Iodata (want to play WMV HD disks), but does it upconvert SD DVD's? I may be thinking of another player that will supposedly play WMV HD, but does *not* upconvert  . If my P4 computer at the house ends up being powerful enough to play Video Essentials over the 8111+, then I plan to hold out until that Iodata is released, since I won't be able to mount the PJ until Nov. anyway. 


**EDIT** Nevermind, you were talking about the JVC unit, right? I hope they don't delay the release. That one looks like exactly what I have been searching for!


----------



## Kamel407

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Ridebreck*
What are you using right now as a transcoder, since I assume that the DVHS and HD DVR are both being fed via component? Or do they both have DVI-I?


I've had my eye on the Iodata (want to play WMV HD disks), but does it upconvert SD DVD's? I may be thinking of another player that will supposedly play WMV HD, but does *not* upconvert  . If my P4 computer at the house ends up being powerful enough to play Video Essentials over the 8111+, then I plan to hold out until that Iodata is released, since I won't be able to mount the PJ until Nov. anyway. 
Give it up for the 8xxx boys!

8111+ here as well

NN + MP-5 soon

Working my way up to a MP9501LC eventually


----------



## PAW

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Clarence*
It works well as a component switcher and I also run the digital audio through the switcher's BNC, so my wife only has to push one button and everything switches (video with corresponding audio).
Clarence How are you running the audio along with the video? Are you (or more precisely the Marquee) using a combined H/V? I only see 5 BNC inputs on the back of the Extron.


----------



## Clarence

I'm using it as a component switcher, not as RGBHV. So I run YPrPb into 3 of the BNCs, and I use the 4th BNC for digital audio. Then the switcher's component output goes to the transcoder (which then has a breakout adapter to heavy-gauge 5BNC to my Marquee), and the switched audio output goes to my receiver.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Ridebreck*
What are you using right now as a transcoder, since I assume that the DVHS and HD DVR are both being fed via component? Or do they both have DVI-I?


I've had my eye on the Iodata (want to play WMV HD disks), but does it upconvert SD DVD's? I may be thinking of another player that will supposedly play WMV HD, but does *not* upconvert  . If my P4 computer at the house ends up being powerful enough to play Video Essentials over the 8111+, then I plan to hold out until that Iodata is released, since I won't be able to mount the PJ until Nov. anyway. 


**EDIT** Nevermind, you were talking about the JVC unit, right? I hope they don't delay the release. That one looks like exactly what I have been searching for!
Yep... this is the one I'm hoping is the upgrade to my Momitsu:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post5782027 
Quote:

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/f...&feature_id=01 
_

ProHD DVD PLAYER

SRDVD-100U

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/DV...vd100u_300.jpg 

*TS (HD 720P, 1080i)*, WMV9, DivXÂ® HD


DVI and component analog outputs for 720p/1080i


IP Network connection allows *network file playback*


Also plays standard DVDs and upconverts them to HD


Video Out (HD)

RCA Component 3 Connectors x1 (1080i/720p/480p/480i)

DVI*-I* Out x 1 (640x480 VGA / 800x600S VGA / 1024x768 XGA / 852x480 / DVI 480p / DVI 720p / DVI 1080i)


COMING SEPTEMBER 2005


Suggested list price for this model: $399.00_


----------



## Ridebreck

I noticed that it says it plays wmv9 video. So here is Matt's stupid question of the day: Is that to say that it will play the WMV HD disks that you can buy right now (I want the Coral Reef Adventure dangit!)? Is wmv9 video synonymous with WMV HD? If so, this is definitely the unit that I've been looking for - to me it's a V880N that can play HD disks.


----------



## Clarence

No, WMV9 is just encoded with Windows Media Encoder 9 .

WMV HD discs will still require a PC with DRM access.


----------



## Ridebreck

Now I'm confused. If you check out Iodata's website for the Linkplayer2 (which this JVC supposedly is, just with more features, right?), there is this excerpt: "Also can playback Microsoft Windows MediaÂ® Video (WMV9), not only MPEG1/2/4/ DivXÂ®. *WMV HD*, DivXÂ® HD, and MPEG2-TS (HD 720p) can be played as HD quality"


I've also seen another website which mentioned that this player can play WMV HD. I'll most likely still get that player, but it sure would sweeten the deal if I knew that it could play WMV HD like the Iodata player *supposedly* can.


----------



## Clarence

I've got T2 and Coral Reef. I'll have to dig those out. When I first played with them over a year ago, my PCs choked on them, but now 3GHz CPUs are everywhere. I don't think WMV is going anywhere with real movies though, so it's still just demo content AFAIC.


----------



## Ridebreck

Ok, I finally managed to find the info I was looking for on Iodata's US site. Deep in the faq, they admit that all of the WMV-HD disks will error out with their player. Looks like I'm SOL for a STB that will play wmv-hd disks. Stupid Microsoft.


----------



## Clarence

I've got T2 and Coral Reef. I'll have to dig those out. When I first played with them over a year ago, my PCs choked on them, but now 3GHz CPUs are everywhere. I don't think WMV is going anywhere with real movies though, so it's still just demo content AFAIC.


Looks like there's not an easy answer... here's iodata's response:
http://www.iodata.com/usa/forum/showthread.php?t=291 
http://www.iodata.com/usa/forum/show...2&page=2&pp=10 

Quote:

Guess working with the next firmware

I think this DVD can work with our next firmware (implemented MS DRM). I saw this DVD working at Sigma Designs showcase. However I'm concerning if this DVD region is "2" for Europe. If so, it may not work with LinkPlayer2 USA model. Thank you.
Quote:

"they PLANNED to release a DVD DRM update". My conclusion is that they did plan that until Microsoft did the testing and it was determined that it needed a windows.dll. If you look at their website now, the DVD DRM "PLANNED" update has been removed.


WMV is a format that will play on the player *if it does not have DRM on the DVD*....

I am not real happy that it will not play DVDs with DRM considering the fact that I bought two Microsoft DVDs because I thought it would be added ...you may never see that issue resolved.
I'm sure it's been covered in the DVD forums, but other than a novelty, I don't have much interest in wmvhd.


----------



## Ridebreck

I may give it a go on this computer at home. I downloaded two of the 720p clips and they played full screen no problemo. It's a Dell P4 2.8G with only 256mb ram running a GeoForce 4 card. The only reason that I got it was because it was on sale and came with a 17" LCD widescreen (which is in my bedroom now). The cute little test that the Windows site does to it says that it's powerful enough to do 1080p  . I'm not buying that, though. Anywho, I figure it's worth a shot to hook it up to the Marquee once my modded boards come back from Curt.


Clarence, if you ever decide that you might want to part with that Reef disk, let me know and I'll buy it from you. I'm a complete nerd for that Discovery Channel / IMAX-type stuff. I just can't seem to get enough of it.


----------



## overclkr

Damn fine theatre I would like to add if that's ok again :^)


Cliff


----------



## CMRA

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Ridebreck*
Ok, I finally managed to find the info I was looking for on Iodata's US site. Deep in the faq, they admit that all of the WMV-HD disks will error out with their player. Looks like I'm SOL for a STB that will play wmv-hd disks. Stupid Microsoft. 
Unless somebody knows something, it looks more and more like MS came only to crash the party. So sad. Two years ago they were the front runner and with all their financial muscle and clout I was certain they would lead the charge. I got all excited for nothing.


Hey Clarence, what's playing in YOUR theater tonight?


----------



## bellm

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Clarence*
>> where did you get the fabric?


ebay. There are a lot of fabric sellers. Most just sell bolt remnants. But several sell large bolts... 20 yds+. IIRC, I paid about $100 for ~30 yards. But in this case, pattern was more important than cost and I was willing to pay much more. I'd already budgeted $13-19/yd for GoM.


It was tough to shop for fabric on ebay... Lots of choices, but too hard to get a feel for the pattern size, color, weight, texture, weave. I just got lucky. I figured I'd try it. If I didn't like it I was just going to relist it. But I liked it a lot when it arrived. I like it 10x more on the wall.


You can also find nice upholstery/drapery fabrics at JoAnn's or McCormick Fabrics. They come on 54"-60" wide rolls instead of bolts. But they cost $20-30/yd.
Is the fabric acoustically transparent? What was the seller's id that you bought the fabric from? What terms should I search for on ebay?


thanks,


Michael


P.s. Great looking theater!


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Originally Posted by *bellm*
Is the fabric acoustically transparent?
No. But search the Builder's forum ( link ) and you'll be reassured that acoustic transparency is really only a concern for fabric placed over speakers... not sound treatments. Any frequencies which are reflectively dampened by the fabric are beneficial to the acoustics of the room, consistent with the original intent of the acoustic treatment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *bellm*
What was the seller's id that you bought the fabric from? What terms should I search for on ebay?
I don't recall the specific seller. But there are several bulk fabric sellers on ebay. Search ebay for "drapery fabric" or "upholstery fabric" or "damask". You'll probably need about 20 yards.


Shopping for fabric on ebay was too tough. I wanted something with a dark, low-contrast pattern, but nonfloral. I wanted 20+ yards. And you want something thick and durable, with enough stretch to pull taut when stapled, but not too stretchy. I got lucky and really like the way it turned out, but if I had to do it again, I'd skip the months of ebay searching and find something at the local fabric store... they have wide rolls (not just standard bolts). Wide range of prices, but the local chains here have it from $9/yd (up to $30) and they have 50% coupons/sales frequently, so you could get 20 yds for as little as $100. You'll know in 10 seconds if you like the look and feel... that's impossible to do online.


See also:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post5806770 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/searc...earchid=243535


----------



## CaspianM

Also you may want to call one of your local Auto restore shops and see where they get their fabrics. There are commercial burlaps available that is very nice looking and some even are fire retatrd. I ended up doing my room just by getting my fabric from a place that is a commercial supplier to office bldg's and auto refinishers.


----------



## Clarence

Quote:

Originally Posted by *CMRA*
Hey Clarence, what's playing in YOUR theater tonight?
I'm hooked on my HD cable DVRs. Here's what I've watched in Hi Def recently...

21 Grams 
After the Sunset 
Against the Ropes 
Air Bud 
The Alamo 
Alien Adventure 
Alien vs Predator 
Along Came Polly 
Amadeus 
Anchorman 
Apocalypse Now Redux 
Aviator 
Bad Boys II 
Bad Santa 
Back to the Future III 
Basic Instinct 
Batman and Robin 
Big Fish 
Black Beauty 
Blade - Trinity 
Blade Runner 
Blame it on Rio 
Boogie Nights 
Bourne Supremacy 
Bram Stoker's Dracula 
Breakin' All the Rules 
Bridget Jones: Edge of Reason 
Bull Durham 
Bulletproof Monk 
Bullitt 
Butterfly Effect 
Casualties of War 
Cellular 
Cheaper by the Dozen 
Chronicles of Riddick 
Clear and Present Danger 
Cold Mountain 
Collateral 
Coming to America 
Con Air 
Confidence 
Contact 
Crimson Tide 
Dances With Wolves 
Dark City 
Dawn of the Dead 
Day After Tomorrow 
Dead Bodies 
Dickie Roberts Child Star 
Dodgeball 
Dogville 
Door in the Floor 
Dummy 
Dune 
Eight Legged Freaks 
Elf 
Enemy of the State 
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind 
Eurotrip 
Fabulous Baker Boys 
Falcon and the Snowman 
Fahrenheit 9/11 
Fargo 
Fern Gully 
A Few Good Men 
Fifth Element 
Fifty First Dates 
Finding Neverland 
The Firm 
Friday Night Lights 
Four Weddings and a Funeral 
Gangs of New York 
Garden State 
G.I. Jane 
Gilbert Grape 
Girl Next Door 
Glory 
Godfather Part III 
Gods Must Be Crazy, The 
Going All the Way 
Going Greek 
Goodfellas 
Good Will Hunting 
Gorillas in the Mist 
Gothika 
Groundhog Day 
The Grudge 
Harold and Kumar go to White Castle 
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban 
Head in the Clouds 
Heartbreak Ridge 
Heavy Metal 
Hero 
History of the World - Part I 
Hitch 
Hollow Man 
Home on the Range 
Hotel Rwanda 
House of Flying Daggers 
Human Stain, The 
Hunt for Red October 
Ice Princess 
Incredibles 
Independence Day 
Intolerable Cruelty 
I Robot 
Italian Job, The 
Jackie Brown 
James and the Giant Peach 
Jersey Girl 
Johnny English 
Jonah - VeggieTales 
Kill Bill Vol 1 
Kill Bill Vol 2 
King Arthur 
Kingpin 
LA Confidential 
Ladder 49 
Lara Croft - Cradle of Life 
Last Action Hero 
Last Samurai 
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen 
Legally Blonde 2 
Les Miserables 
The Life Aquatic 
Life is Beautiful 
Little Black Book 
Looney Tunes 
Love Actually 
Master and Commander 
Matchstick Men 
Matrix 3 - Revolutions 
Mean Girls 
Medallion 
Meet the Fockers 
Menace II Society 
Men in Black 
Million Dollar Baby 
Milo and Otis 
Miracle 
Miracle on 34th St 
Monster 
Moulin Rouge 
Mulholland Falls 
My Best Friend's Wedding 
Mystic River 
Napoleon Dynamite 
Naked Gun 2 1/2 
National Treasure 
Notebook, The 
Oceans Twelve 
An Officer and a Gentleman 
Once Upon a Time in Mexico 
Patriot Games 
Paycheck 
Peter Pan 
Phantom of the Opera 
Playing By Heart 
Princess Bride 
Pulp Fiction 
Quigley Down Under 
Racing Stripes 
Raising Helen 
Ray 
Red Dawn 
Resident Evil - Apocalypse 
Road House 
Rocketeer, The 
Rounders 
Rugrats Go Wild 
Rundown, The 
Quest for Camelot 
School of Rock 
Scooby Doo 2 
Scream 
Seabiscuit 
Secret Lives of Dentists 
Secret Window 
Shakespeare in Love 
Shark Tale 
Shaun of the Dead 
Shrek 
Shrek 2 
Sideways 
S1m0ne 
Sin City 
Something's Gotta Give 
Spanglish 
Spider-Man 2 
Starship Troopers 
Star Trek Nemesis 
Star Wars - Attack of the Clones 
Step Into Liquid 
Striptease 
Stuck on You 
Sudden Impact 
Super Size Me 
Tall Tales - Pecos Bill 
Tango and Cash 
Teacher's Pet 
Terminator 3 
Terminal, The 
That Thing You Do 
Time to Kill, A 
Titanic 
Tombstone 
Toy Story 
Troy 
True Lies 
Two Brothers 
Underworld 
Unbearable Likeness of Being 
Van Helsing 
Village, The 
Waking Ned Divine 
While You Were Sleeping 
Wild Orchid 
Wimbledon 
Windtalkers 
Without a Paddle 
Young Guns 
Young Guns II 

HD concert - 3 Doors Down

HD concert - Alison Krauss and Union Station

HD Concert - Alison Krauss and Union Station - Austin City Limits

HD Concert - Ben Folds - Austin City Limits

HD Concert - Ben Folds - Soundstage Central Park

HD Concert - Bruce Hornsby

HD Concert - Clint Black

HD concert - Counting Crows

HD Concert - Cream - Royal Albert Hall 2005

HD concert - The Cult

HD concert - Cyndi Lauper

HD Concert - Dave Matthews Band - Weekend on the Rocks (Soundstage, Red Rocks CO)

HD concert - David Gilmour

HD concert - Devo - Soundstage Central Park

HD concert - Dido

HD Concert - Duran Duran

HD concert - Eagles

HD Concert - Elton John - Royal Opera House

HD concert - Heart - Alive in Seattle

HD concert - Hootie & the Blowfish

HD concert - James Brown

HD concert - Joe Walsh

HD concert - Keith Richards and Norah Jones

HD concert - Kiss

HD Concert - Les Miserables

HD Concert - Martina McBride - Soundstage

HD Concert - Matchbox 20

HD Concert - Motley Crue

HD Concert - Morrissey

HD Concert - Norah Jones

HD concert - Peter Frampton

HD concert - Puddle of Mudd

HD concert - Richie Sambora

HD Concert - Roy Orbison - Black and White

HD Concert - Sarah McLachlan

HD concert - Sheryl Crow

HD concert - Steve Winwood

HD concert - Stray Cats

HD Concert - Strat Pack - Tribute to Fender Stratocaster

HD concert - Styx

HD concert - Ted Nugent

HD concert - Peter Frampton

HD Concert - U2 - Rattle and Hum

HD concert - U2 - Conan

HD Concert - Vertigo

HD concert - The Who


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## PAW

This is probably OT but a lot things in this thread are.  How important is fire retardant fabrics for covering walls?


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## CaspianM

Fabrics that are fire code like GOM are obviously prefered if you like the patterns (actually no patterns) and willing to pay the asking price. I really like the idea of a fabric to be fire coded.


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## ManTown2

What are the dimensions of your riser? I have the same sized room as you and am doing a set up very similar to use. My back will be a bar counter with a shuffleboard running the length of the back wall. My dilema is this, I want to have the riser in there for more seating and just for the old , "thats cool" I am not sure whether to put regular theater seating like yours or a row of berklines in the second row, everytime i read something about the berklines i get a different response. How much were your seats? Is it possible to get seats that dont recline that are really combfortable?????? I will be using an lcd and the front row will be about 10,12 feet from the screen.

Sorry for rambling


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## Clarence

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ManTown2*
What are the dimensions of your riser?
72" x 52" x 10"


I like the folding theater seats, but if I had the width, I would probably prefer 3 more reclining Berks.


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## ManTown2

It looks like you got rid of the bar you had planned behind the second row. Why?

Im afraid of being too clsoe to my screen if hte riser is too big, i thikn i read somewhere that the riser should be at least 72" deep to accomadate the berlines, i would put a row of four on the riser nad a row of 3 in front

How much were your seats? (the theater ones)


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## Clarence

The bar's still going in... it's just one of those things that slips week to week. Too many kids' activities every weekend. It'll be a nice winter project. Ditto for the 2nd backlit poster frame.


I think I paid $100 for 6 of the theater seats with cupholders. But I paid $90 each to professionally refoam and reupholster 3 of them to match the wall fabric:
http://img44.echo.cx/img44/7347/9may04306bx.jpg http://img44.echo.cx/img44/7347/9may04306bx.th.jpg 


I have a huge pile of smaller ones without cupholders. I gave 4 to my neighbor ( picture )

and sold the rest.


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## gutwrencher

Quote:

She's not sure what's worse... me for posting them or you guys for looking at them.
Just tell her theres at least one person that _feels_ worse after looking at them. 


Oh well....34" is about a big as I'll be able to get.


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## Z-Photo

So Clarence


What would you change?


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## Clarence

I'd put in an extra A/C register and return.


I'd use a bigger conduit... I think I used 2", but with 5BNC, 2 sets of component, and a DVI cable, it's pretty snug... to get the component cables through there, I had to use a plumbing snake.


If it was a couple of feet wider, that'd be nice, but I had to work with the space I had. I'd trade a couple of feet in the back of the room for more space on the sides.


I LOVE the sound treatments... both inside the walls and outside the walls... no changes there: certasound, integrity gaskets, acoustic caulk, flexiduct, and linacoustic. Linacoustic was the best $140 in the whole room. I also love the wall fabric... no changes there. And I really like the flat black suede paint on the ceiling.


I like the seats, but if I started from scratch, I'd probably use Berks in the 2nd row too, instead of just the front.


I like the lighting zones, but I'd add lighting on the equipment rack. I might still add automated remote dimmers. The equipment closet is one of my favorite features... being able to access all of the wiring connections from the back.


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## Z-Photo

OH,


I was thinking more along the lines of where the Stripper Pole would go. But your suggestions also make some sense...


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## Clarence

The stripper poles are portable... very similar to a basketball goal, but without the backboard.


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## MountainAsh

Very nice job!


How much does the Integrity Gaskets cost?


It seems you are using Visio. I have Visio 2002 installed and do not have the stencils that you used. Where can I get them?


Thanks,

Dave


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## shatogar

Quote:

Originally Posted by *MountainAsh*
Very nice job!


How much does the Integrity Gaskets cost?


It seems you are using Visio. I have Visio 2002 installed and do not have the stencils that you used. Where can I get them?


Thanks,

Dave
You can get the integrity gasket from Amazon.com. 10 rolls are $116.00.


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