# My 11.4.12 "Franken-Atmos" living room.



## Nalleh

*My 13.4.12 "Franken-SWAtmos" living room.*

I get a lot of questions about my setup, so i tought i could make a thread explaining it a little more. And maybe some pics too.

Short version: i use more than one Atmos AVR's to expand beyond the 7.1.4/9.1.2 hardware limit on todays affordable gear.

Updated may 2019: ventured into the BOSS world of shakers, post 562..
Updated Mars 2019: stacked Crowson motion actuators and Buttkickers, post 498.

*Updated may 2018: new nearfield solution with 12x12" JBL’s behind the couch. Starts at post 281.*


*UPDATED MARCH 2018*

Ok, here we go again. Since reading about the new Denon flagship receiver capable of 13.1 and all amps built in, i had to make changes. So i sold the 5200 and 6200 and have now gotten the brand new AVC-X8500H. So no i can either do 9.1.4 or 7.1.6 with JUST the 8500, or as i have it configured for now 7.1.6 from the 8500 and 9.1.2 from the 7200 for a total of 9.1.6. And this is as correct 9.1.6 as you can get in this price range. And i can also do a (nearly) correct DTS:X 9.1.6. Auro is coming in a May update and will be 13.1. So i should be covered either way.

And if i want(and will test later on) i can still do the 13.1.8 setup i had earlier, but now i just need these two AVR’s. The 8500 for 9.1.4 (FH+RH), and the 7200 setup with 5.1.4+W for special wides and special surround + TF+TR.

So gear now is:

Gear.
Oppo BDP-203 UHD player(regionfree)
XBOX ONE X
Canal Digital HD PVR satellite-box
Apple TV3
(Darbee Darblet and MARSEILLE MCABLE for 1080P content)
Denon AVC-X8500H
Denon AVR-X7200WA
Yamaha RX-V3067
3 X Inuke NU6000DSP
JVC DLA RS600
Dreamscreen V2 dynagrey 120" screen
Samsung UE65JU7005 UHDTV
Harmony Ultimate.
Front=Klipsch RF-82 mk1
Center=Klipsch RC-64 mk2
Wide= Dynavoice Challenger M65 V3
Surr= Klipsch RS52
WideSur1/Sur2=Klipsch RS42
Surrback= KEF3005SE
Height speakers= 10x KEF3005SE
Nearfield mid-bass= Behringer B1200D
LFE= 2 X Sonosubs with 2 X SI18HT v2 in Dual Opposed config.
4x Crowson Shadow8 motion actuators
MiniDSP 2X4 balanced

Read more in post 259 


OLDER SETUP:


Did a quick and dirty diagram of the setup.
Blue speakers powered by the 7200.
Red speakers powered by the 6200.
Yellow speakers powered by the 5200.












I will try to have the first post as updated about the setup as possible, and then take the details as we go.

Edit: updated Feb -17:

My HT is in the right half of my living room, and the room dimensions are:

5.1x4.1x2.4 meter

16.5Wx13.5Dx7.8H feet


*EDIT sep17:

Or about 1800 cubic feet *(+ the other half).

*Gear.*
Panasonic DMP-UB900 UHD player
HD FURY Integral
Oppo BDP-103 BD player
Darbee Darblet
Canal Digital HD PVR satellite-box
Apple TV3
PS3 (fat)
XBOX360
Denon AVR-X7200WA
Denon AVR-X6200W
Denon AVR-X5200W
Yamaha RX-V3067
Inuke NU6000DSP
JVC DLA X500R
Dreamscreen V2 dynagrey 120" screen
Samsung UE65JU7005 UHDTV

Front=Klipsch RF-82 mk1
Wide= Dynavoice Challenger M65 V3
Center=Klipsch RC-64 mk2
Surr= Klipsch RS52
WideSur1/Sur2=Klipsch RS42
Surrback= KEF3005SE
Height speakers= 10x KEF3005SE
Nearfield mid-bass= Behringer B1200D
LFE= SVS PB12-Plus/2
ULF= PSA S3000i +4x Crowson Shadow8 motion actuators
MiniDSP 2X4 balanced

All controlled by a Logitech Harmony Ultimate with the hub+4 extenders.

So my earlier setup was a Denon 7200/5200 combo, to get 7.1.4 + Wides + 8 channels of height speakers, for a 9.1.8 setup, explained further down on page(behing the spoiler), but i recently got a 6200 to gain HDMI 2.0 and DTS:X on the second AVR. Then i discovered "Special Wides" descrided in post 67 in this thread. Since i now had 3 Atmos AVR's, this gave me the opportunity to gain both 2 set of wides, AND keep my 8 channels of heights, for a grand total of 13.1.8 in native Atmos and 9.1.8 on DTS:X.











In daily TV use, i have just the 7200 playing DSU in a 7.1.4 setup, but it has all 14 speakers connected, for a 7.1.4 Atmos/DTS:X or 10.1 Auro 3D setup.

So in native Atmos, setup is as follows:
7200 switched to 9.1.2 for fronts @ 25 degrees, "Pure Wides" @ 50 degrees, "Pure Surrounds @ 85 degrees and Surround backs @150 degrees. Playing only 9.1.0(note 1)(note5).










6200 setup as 5.1.4+Wides(note2) for Wides/Sur1 @ 70 degrees, Sur2/Rears @110 degrees and Top Front+ Top Rear. Playing Wides, Sur2, and Tops(note4).










5200 setup as 5.1.4 for Front Height and Rear Height. Playing 0.0.4
(note 1)(note 2)(note3).










So basically the 7200 plays 9.1.0, while the 5200 plays 0.0.4(heights).
And 6200 plays 5.0.4(Wide/Sur1+Sur2/Rear+Tops).










As you can see in the little channel indicators in front display, the 7200(to the left) plays SB and WIDES, the 6200(bottom right) plays wides but no SB's and the 5200 (top right) plays no wides and no SB's.
As before, they are linked together via HDMI ZONE2 daisy-chained to the next AVR.

I only need on/off and main volume changes on the 6200/5200, so one original remote(and Harmony ultimate) handles that very well.

Note 1: both the 7200 and 5200 front and rear heights pre-out goes to the main and zone2 outputs of the Yama, so i just use the remote to switch the heights currently beeing used between the 7200 and 5200. So when the 7200 is in 9.1.2 mode, i let the 5200 power the heights.

Note 2: both the 6200 and 5200 wides pre-out goes to zone3 on the Yama, so i can choose wich one powers the Wide/sur1 speakers. This way i can use Neo:X wides from the 5200 in DSU(wich do not use wides).

Note 3: in Auro 3D, the 7200 powers the full 10.1 possible. But i can copy the 5200 surrounds(in Auro mode) to the surround back speakers(silent in Auro 10.1) for Auro "12.1" This way i get more "rear fill" than with just the 7200 surrounds @85 degrees. This is done with a dual source speaker switch. I can also power the Surround Heights with the 5200 if i change amp assign to FH+SH, for Auro "14.1".

Note 4: i have a "Center Height" speaker above the screen. This is connected to the center output of the 6200, and works as a "dialog lift", and also helps pannings between the front heights.

Note 5: the 7200 powers a VOG(sub2 pre-out) used in Auro 3D. In other formats, i can matrix a VOG using PL2 in the Yama extracted from the rear heights.


After all this was connected, all 3 AVR's got a full Pro calibration. This took a while...










I got a third !?! Kef3005SE 5.1 speaker kit for this upgrade. I switched out the surround backs from Klipsch to Kef, and the rear heights from white to black Kef's.










And got rid of the bookshelfs used as Surround Heights for white Kef's.
See the Kef sub on top of the Bluray rack? I now have bass-managment on the rear heights 











Older setup behind spoiler, no longer used. Too complicated 



Spoiler



7200 Audyssed with 7.1.4 FH+RH+wides+VOG. 14 speakers.
5200 Audyssed with 7.1.4 TF+TR+wides. 13 speakers.

*In native Atmos*, my 7200 is playing 7.1.4, no SB+FW.

My 5200 is playing TF+TR. 
However: since the 7200 has deactivated SB's in this case, and they then are downmixed into the surrounds, I switch the surrounds and surround-backs over to the 5200, via my old AVR(Yama 3067 set up as a multisource(all three zones) active speaker switch).

So the 5200 also plays surrounds and SB's.

="TRUE" 9.1.8 

*When playing native DTS:X* (wich is limited to 7.1.4 anyway) from the 7200, i can play wides from the 5200 in Neo:X mode(matrixed from fronts and surrounds in both cases anyway).

*And then when playing native Auro 3D*, the 7200 plays 10.1, and if the track is 13.1, the 5200 can fill in with surround backs.











*Setup. Ok, so a little more in detail how it all is connected.*

The two AVR's are simply connected with a HDMI cable from the 7200 zone2 HDMI OUT, to AV1 input on the 5200. This output is a copy of the input, untouched, unprocessed, full sound and picture.

From the 7200 the speakers are:

Front LR= 7200.

Center=7200.

Surrounds= goes trough a dual source-dual output speaker switch.
Input A is from the 7200 surround speakers
Input B is from the 5200 surround speakers
Output 1 goes to surround speakers 1 at 85 degrees
Output 2 goes to surround speakers 2 at 110 degrees
So i can choose wich surround should play, even both sets from on AVR. Or one from each. Like when i deactivate the 7200 SB's to gain the wides, i can let the 5200 play surround1 and SB's, and then let the 7200 play the surround2.

Surround back= Both 7200 and 5200 surround back pre-outs goes to Yama AVR zone2 input audio1 and audio2. So i can choose wich plays the SB's. I also have a input from 5200 surrounds here, so i can copy the surrounds to surround back, eg in Auro.

Front wides= goes trough a second dual source-dual output speaker switch.
Input A is from the 7200 front wide speakers.
Input B is from the 5200 front wide speakers.
So either the 7200 or the 5200 can power the wides.

Front height= 7200.

Rear height= 7200 pre-out goes to Yama AVR main zone input AV1
I can choose stereo(2speakers) or PL2 matrixing to the center channel, VOG(3speakers).
Rear height is also connected via a Y-connector to the Yama multi ch front input.

Top surround(Auro 3D)= 7200 sub2 pre-out goes to Yama multi ch input, center channel.

So by switching the Yama from AV1 input(Atmos/DTS:X) to multi ch input (Auro 3D) i get correct signal to rear height and top surround).

From the 5200 the speakers are:

Front LR= connected to 7200 multi ch inputs, fronts. When calibrating or playing from 5200, the 7200 is switched to multi ch.

Center= 5200 to a center height.

Surrounds= see above dual source speaker switch.

Surround back= see above Yama zone2.

Front wides= see above second dual source speaker switch.

Top fronts= 5200.

Top rears= 5200 pre-out goes to Yama AVR Zone 3.

Surround height(Auro 3D)= 5200 pre-out is also connected via a Y-connector to Yama AVR main zone multi ch input, surround channels.

So on the Yama, if i turn of zone3(top rear) and switch to multi ch, the 5200 height2 signal is directed to the surround heights(Auro 3D).



I have a lot of flexibility with this setup, but it is not advisable to leave the remote with grandma 

Some pics of the recently redone living room.


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## Nalleh

Here' how i did it over a year ago:



Nalleh said:


> Well, screw DTS:X. Got tired of waiting, so i tried something else.
> Frustrated about the 7.1.4 limit of speaker in Atmos?
> Don't want the hassle of 8min config loads to get both Atmos/Auro full setups?
> Can't afford the overly expensive Trinnov or Datasat?
> 
> Well, i found a way to get 9.1.6 native Atmos and 12.1 Auro 3D with 1 setup!
> 
> How?
> Well, as you know, i have my Denon 5200, connected to 14 speakers, and it is setup with full 10.1 Auro:
> 5.1+FH+SH+TS(VOG).
> Press the movie remote button and the 9.1.2 Atmos is selected:
> 5.1+FW+SB+FH.
> Ok, since i got over a grand for my old Onkyo 3010 receiver, i used the money to buy a second Denon, this time the little brother: 4100.
> So, connected some of the 5200's speakers and some new to get it calibrated, this has amp assign as follows:
> 
> Amp Assign: 9.1
> Height Speakers: 4 height speakers
> Height Layout: Top Middle+Rear Height
> Pre-out: Front and rear height
> 
> The two receivers are connected using a HDMI from the Zone2 HDMI out from the 5200, that send full image and sound, by the way, to one of the HDMI input on the 4100.
> 
> I do not have fronts connected to the 4100, but the 4 ceiling seakers make the new native Atmos setup a full 9.1.6 :
> 5.1+FW+SB+FH(as before from the 5200) +TM+RH(from the 4100).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 5200:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 4100:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Movie button again switch to the full 10.1 Auro setup from the 5200 and with a dual source speaker switch for the Surround backs between 5200/4100 , and i gain the SB from the 4100 on the Auro setup= 12.1.
> 
> But wait, there's more. The following are connected to the 4100, eq'd and separatly calibrated from the 5200' speakers.
> Side Surround B. Since the 4100 have empty surround speaker post, why not use them with a second set surround speakers placed at ca 80 degrees(surround A at 110 degrees).
> Center Height. Same here, empty center speakers posts, so connected another center speaker high on the front wall.
> 
> And remember the pesky use of sub pre-out 2 for the Top Surround in Auro 10.1 setup?
> Well, the 4100 has 2 brand new seperatly calibrated sub pre-outs available!
> 
> Actually, with a second dual source speaker switch, i can use the Atmos RH as SBH in Auro, since the SBH is ganged in SH anyway in Auro 15.1 setup.
> 
> So, one could say the following:
> 
> Atmos: 5.1+SB+S2+FW+FH+TM+RH+CH=11.1.7
> 
> Auro 3D:
> 5.1+SB+S2+FH+SH+SBH+TS+CH= 17.1
> 
> It works!! The lip sync is spot on, and espesially the 6 ceiling speakers really woke up the "spaceious" feeling, and i believe the 4100 will be staying
> 
> A couple of glitches though, but nothing major, ex. two volum buttons etc. but i can live with them.


And some pics:






































It has been updated since this, but the basic function is the same.


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## Nalleh

More pics










Old 50 inch HD vs new 65 inch

When watching movies, black curtains drawn


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## Nalleh

A older rendition from 2012, LOOL.


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## Daniel Chaves

thanks for the write, still a bit over my head but Im sure after I read it a few more times I will get it. ^^;;


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## krholmberg

Wow. You might single handedly keep the speaker manufacturing business in business! Your creativity is awesome. With this layout and all these speakers, and the two receivers, what formats (and which speakers are used for each specific format) are you able to play?

Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk


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## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> thanks for the write, still a bit over my head but Im sure after I read it a few more times I will get it. ^^;;


Sure, This kind of setup is not for everybody. 



krholmberg said:


> Wow. You might single handedly keep the speaker manufacturing business in business! Your creativity is awesome. With this layout and all these speakers, and the two receivers, what formats (and which speakers are used for each specific format) are you able to play?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk


Thanks 

Well, this days with DTS:X there is a bit of reconfiguring going on to get the best total setup for all format. Especially since the 5200 is not able to do DTS:X.

But now, with just the 7200 I can do a shared setup of ATMOS/DTS:X/AURO 3D as follows.

It is setup in a 7.1.5 using FH+RH+VOG, so in ATMOS and DTS:X it is 7.1.4 and in AURO it is 5.1.5 or 10.1.
With the 5200 i can fill in several sets of speakers, like TF+TR in ATMOS. Or Surround back in AURO 3D.

I will explain more is a get done configuring.


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## audiofan1

love it


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## Scott Simonian

_"It's ALIVE!"_


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## Mashie Saldana

Need more speakers, can almost see a bit of walls between them. 

Have you managed to try the Atmos demos in that setup yet?


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## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> Need more speakers, can almost see a bit of walls between them.
> 
> Have you managed to try the Atmos demos in that setup yet?


Sure did 
Man, that Battle Front demo was intense 

Now with DTS:X and this demo disc i am in some serious thoughts about how to set it all up. It is A LOT to consider with all three formats.


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## rfb6435

Nalleh,

For the multiple AVR setup I have a few questions.

Have you tried connecting the remote control in/out connection from one unit to the other?

I am curious to know if they will stay in sync if the poweron volume levels are set and they get the same vol up/down to each unit...
I wonder if the Marantz remote link will do the same without the need for a remote flasher or constant use of two remotes or a phone app.

Do the audyssey calibration volume levels match or do you set them with an SPL meter?

I actually have a Marantz SR7009 and was considering a second one or even just a simple older SR500x unit to do Surround and Back Surround and not worry about TR given that it would be only around $250 for a used 7.1 unit to get 9.2.4 and about $900 for another SR7009 to enable 9.2.6 (or 9.2.8) which is getting fairly expensive for diminishing returns (and less spousal understanding).

I read that you said that the same unit has to control surround and back surround or the backs are mixed into the sides which is a good tip! Wth only 9.2.4 I am assuming that the sound would not overlap or be mixed at all as long as I have the LCR, wides, and 4 atmos on the main receiver. Do you agree? 

Thanks for doing some of the pioneering work here,

Rich


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## Nalleh

rfb6435 said:


> Nalleh,
> 
> For the multiple AVR setup I have a few questions.
> 
> Have you tried connecting the remote control in/out connection from one unit to the other?
> 
> I am curious to know if they will stay in sync if the poweron volume levels are set and they get the same vol up/down to each unit...
> I wonder if the Marantz remote link will do the same without the need for a remote flasher or constant use of two remotes or a phone app.
> 
> Do the audyssey calibration volume levels match or do you set them with an SPL meter?
> 
> I actually have a Marantz SR7009 and was considering a second one or even just a simple older SR500x unit to do Surround and Back Surround and not worry about TR given that it would be only around $250 for a used 7.1 unit to get 9.2.4 and about $900 for another SR7009 to enable 9.2.6 (or 9.2.8) which is getting fairly expensive for diminishing returns (and less spousal understanding).
> 
> I read that you said that the same unit has to control surround and back surround or the backs are mixed into the sides which is a good tip! Wth only 9.2.4 I am assuming that the sound would not overlap or be mixed at all as long as I have the LCR, wides, and 4 atmos on the main receiver. Do you agree?
> 
> Thanks for doing some of the pioneering work here,
> 
> Rich


 I have not tried the remote in/out connections, as i use ID2 on the 7200. I would say you need two seperate remotes, because there are always situations where you need to adjust something on just one. If the AVR are different, then one command would do different thing on the two AVR's.
Yes, all the Audyssey results are rather identical.

There are two problems with using another AVR for just the surround backs.
1. On your main AVR, disabling the SB's, means it will downmix those signal into the side surrounds. Getting another AVR to do just the SB's, means the SB signal will come from both the main AVR's side surround, AND the AVR2's SB speakers.
2. Using a NON-Atmos AVR2 for your SB's, means in will have the "height-sounds" mixed into AVR2 SB's. So the sounds coming from main AVR heights, will also come from your SB's.


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## rfb6435

Nalleh said:


> I have not tried the remote in/out connections, as i use ID2 on the 7200. I would say you need two seperate remotes, because there are always situations where you need to adjust something on just one. If the AVR are different, then one command would do different thing on the two AVR's.
> Yes, all the Audyssey results are rather identical.
> 
> There are two problems with using another AVR for just the surround backs.
> 1. On your main AVR, disabling the SB's, means it will downmix those signal into the side surrounds. Getting another AVR to do just the SB's, means the SB signal will come from both the main AVR's side surround, AND the AVR2's SB speakers.
> 2. Using a NON-Atmos AVR2 for your SB's, means in will have the "height-sounds" mixed into AVR2 SB's. So the sounds coming from main AVR heights, will also come from your SB's.


Thanks for the reply,

I agree that there will be some cases where the AVR setup will have to be separated. I planned on turning off one or the other manually for that setup and then using the single remote during the setup time. For normal usage I hope the volume will work from one remote. I am somewhat concerned that changing modes from say DSU->Neo:X (or DTS:X with a future AVR) would not work well when they are both powered on like you say.


*If I use the secondary AVR for both side surrounds and surround backs what happens?* Is this really different than having both surrounds on a separate ATMOS receiver?

Does the main AVR change its front sound stage and heights to compensate for no surrounds?
Or will the Marantz not let me run a setup that includes wide's and heights without any side or back surrounds? (I will have to verify that).


From some of the threads ATMOS is described as 7.1+Objects on the Wides and overheads. It is unclear to me if the 7.1 speakers also get objects but I understood that the wides and overheads ONLY got objects in the home atmos version (I heard that commercial atmos has some overhead channel info).

If we lose some amount of object info on the surrounds in exchange for wides and/or overheads then I am interested to see how it sounds.

-Rich


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## Nalleh

rfb6435 said:


> Thanks for the reply,
> 
> *If I use the secondary AVR for both side surrounds and surround backs what happens?* Is this really different than having both surrounds on a separate ATMOS receiver?
> 
> Does the main AVR change its front sound stage and heights to compensate for no surrounds?
> Or will the Marantz not let me run a setup that includes wide's and heights without any side or back surrounds? (I will have to verify that).


Let me put it this way.
If you play a Atmos track where a helicopter goes over your head from left to right. This sound is in your 7.1. True HD track, and will sound from the surrounds/surround backs, if played in 7.1 non-Atmos.

On your ATMOS AVR, the Atmos renderer read the metadata and REMOVES that sound from your surrounds/surround backs, and places it in your rear height from left to right.

On your second NON-Atmos AVR, that sound will NOT be removed from the surrounds/surround backs, and will therefore also sound from the surrounds/surround backs.

Get it? To put it shortly: the sounds meant for the heigths, will also come from all surrounds, so it will not sound from above.

IF your second AVR is an Atmos one, then it will works as intended, as it will also have removed that sound.

And no, you can not dissable surround speakers in speaker setup. I do it with a dual source speaker switch, so i can choose if the 7200 or the 5200 plays the surrounds.


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## rfb6435

Nalleh said:


> Let me put it this way.
> If you play a Atmos track where a helicopter goes over your head from left to right. This sound is in your 7.1. True HD track, and will sound from the surrounds/surround backs, if played in 7.1 non-Atmos.
> 
> On your ATMOS AVR, the Atmos renderer read the metadata and REMOVES that sound from your surrounds/surround backs, and places it in your rear height from left to right.
> 
> On your second NON-Atmos AVR, that sound will NOT be removed from the surrounds/surround backs, and will therefore also sound from the surrounds/surround backs.
> 
> Get it? To put it shortly: the sounds meant for the heigths, will also come from all surrounds, so it will not sound from above.
> 
> IF your second AVR is an Atmos one, then it will works as intended, as it will also have removed that sound.
> 
> And no, you can not dissable surround speakers in speaker setup. I do it with a dual source speaker switch, so i can choose if the 7200 or the 5200 plays the surrounds.


Thanks that helps confirm some information. I have tried to read posts around the web and in the "The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)" thread but the thread is out of control with way too many posts... Adding a summary to post 1 of the official thread about the exact differences of how the bed layer works with an atmos v. TrueHD AVR would probably help a lot of people!

Given that my room is currently FH+TM I would be fine with the SB from the TrueHD AVR playing a combined RH/SB on the SB speakers but I am not sure how the side surrounds will work with that in either option.... 

I may play around with it and see if the downmix of SS+SB on the atmos AVR with SB from the TrueHD AVR is better or worse than floating the SS on the atmos AVR and driving both SS and SB from the TrueHD AVR.

And of course the default of no SB at all is also an option. 

I see what you are saying about either choice having extra sounds on the SS and SB speakers compared to a dual atmos AVRs.

I did also check and confirmed that if I disable side surrounds then it goes all the way down to a 3.1 system without the option for wides or heights just as you said.

The unfortunate part is that if I understand things properly I would need at minimum a 7.1.2 capable atmos AVR for the second AVR or I wouldn't be able to get it to put the right content on the SS and SB speakers because the 5.1.2 avrs that I have looked at can't drive both SB and TM at the same time and would basically act like a TrueHD AVR if TM isn't enabled.  Does that sound right?

Thanks for your help and explicit descriptions. It should help many who are trying to push the envelope.

-Rich


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## Nalleh

^^^ Correct !

It is not easy to get this right. If it was easy, everybody would do it, right?


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## rfb6435

Nalleh said:


> ^^^ Correct !
> 
> It is not easy to get this right. If it was easy, everybody would do it, right?


Agreed.

It isn't easy and it isn't cheap to get it right.

I haven't seen an official dolby spec that really breaks down what content goes to the surrounds in atmos mode so it is good to hear what the consensus is from everyone's experiences. 



I finally see the info on how the base/heights change in 7.1/atmos in post 2615 here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...-thread-atmos-dts-x-auro-88.html#post39983362 

There sure is a lot of stuff to sift through to find what is needed on this topic...


I have a coworker who just swapped out his SR6007 with an SR5010 so he said I could play around with the SR6007 which is just sitting around now.

I am very interested to compare the surroundsin back to back listening tests with my atmos SR7009 in 7.1.4 mode and the TrueHD SR6007 in 7.1 mode. I understand that there are difference but I am curious to see if it is subtle or a big difference.

Have you tried the configuration where you setup your second AVR to drive the surrounds only to see how different it really is?

-Rich


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## mukerjea

Nalleh said:


> But now, with just the 7200 I can do a shared setup of ATMOS/DTS:X/AURO 3D as follows.
> 
> It is setup in a 7.1.5 using FH+RH+VOG, so in ATMOS and DTS:X it is 7.1.4 and in AURO it is 5.1.5 or 10.1.
> With the 5200 i can fill in several sets of speakers, like TF+TR in ATMOS. Or Surround back in AURO 3D.
> 
> I will explain more is a get done configuring.


Thanks for your detailed explanation for using2 AVR. It is very interesting.But I can’t afford 2 AVRs. I liked your idea of making 7200 setup in a 7.1.5 using FH+RH+VOG, so in ATMOS and DTS:X it is 7.1.4 and in AURO it is 5.1.5 or 10.1.

I have X7200WA and configured it to Atmos 7.1.4 as by the Denon book. DTS-X also plays well. Now the question is how do I make it AURO 5.1.5.
Can you please explain in detail?

My setup is as per the drawing in Denon Book.


----------



## Nalleh

mukerjea said:


> Thanks for your detailed explanation for using2 AVR. It is very interesting.But I can’t afford 2 AVRs. I liked your idea of making 7200 setup in a 7.1.5 using FH+RH+VOG, so in ATMOS and DTS:X it is 7.1.4 and in AURO it is 5.1.5 or 10.1.
> 
> I have X7200WA and configured it to Atmos 7.1.4 as by the Denon book. DTS-X also plays well. Now the question is how do I make it AURO 5.1.5.
> Can you please explain in detail?
> 
> My setup is as per the drawing in Denon Book.


Well, first of all you need the Auro upgrade, and that one is not a free upgrade, such as Dts:X.
Once you have Auro 3D, in amp assign, choose 11.1( as normal), but under "height speakers" you can now choose 5 speakers= Auro 10.1, or 5.1.5.
Easy peasy.


----------



## mukerjea

Nalleh said:


> Well, first of all you need the Auro upgrade, and that one is not a free upgrade, such as Dts:X.
> Once you have Auro 3D, in amp assign, choose 11.1( as normal), but under "height speakers" you can now choose 5 speakers= Auro 10.1, or 5.1.5.
> Easy peasy.


Thanks for the response. Yes I know upgrade is $199.

A very newbie question. Atmos needs Top Speakers where as Auro needs height speakers. Since I already have assigned these as 7.1.4 for Atmos, after this I assign Auro as 5.1.5 as you advised.

So when I play Atmos Disc, will the speakers get assigned as Top Speakers automatically and then when I play Auro Disc, will they get assigned as Height speakers?

I hope I am able to explain my question.

Thanks for your patience.

Ash


----------



## Nalleh

No, they will not. If you want one setup for all three formats, then front height+rear height is the only setup possible.


----------



## Nalleh

Lately i have upgraded the projector to a JVC X500 4K E-Shift. And a HDFURY, to compliment the Samsung K8500 UHD Bluray player.


----------



## Nalleh

Just ordered some Crowson MA's. Very exited to test them out


----------



## coolrda

Very nice room. Love the color and the gear Good to see home theater is thriving in the motherland although I'm about 200 years removed.


----------



## Nalleh

coolrda said:


> Very nice room. Love the color and the gear Good to see home theater is thriving in the motherland although I'm about 200 years removed.


Thanks 

Not as crazy as you yanks, but it works for my needs. And thanks for getting me on to the Crowsons, they rock


----------



## tezster

And here I thought my plans to upgrade to "only" 5.2.4 in my rather small living room would be a challenge - now I realize it's only small potatoes


----------



## Nalleh

tezster said:


> And here I thought my plans to upgrade to "only" 5.2.4 in my rather small living room would be a challenge - now I realize it's only small potatoes


5.2.4 would probably be enough 

I would not recommend this kind of madness to anyone.


----------



## tezster

So, I'm trying to understand how your system is connected in terms of getting a mental picture of how it's configured. From a strictly Atmos-specific layout, am I correct in assuming that each Denon AVR can only be assigned a maximum of two Atmos channels? With two AVRs, you run 4 Atmos channels (8 speakers). Theoretically speaking, is it possible to daisy-chain a 3rd Atmos receiver so you can run all 5 Atmos channels? i.e. FH+RH+TF+TM+TR?


----------



## Nalleh

It is possible. Would it be noticable better? Don't think so.


----------



## Nalleh

From the other night, getting ready to watch a movie.


----------



## Al Sherwood

Nalleh, I don't have Denon AVR's so I am a little lost with the verbal hook up description... any chance you have this all drawn out? A connection diagram would be way easier to digest...

I think that I could budget for two AVR's (for example new 11 channel units) that would give me what I want...


----------



## Nalleh

Al Sherwood said:


> Nalleh, I don't have Denon AVR's so I am a little lost with the verbal hook up description... any chance you have this all drawn out? A connection diagram would be way easier to digest...
> 
> I think that I could budget for two AVR's (for example new 11 channel units) that would give me what I want...


Hi Al.

I am away on vacation at the moment, but i will see if there is something i can get done, to make it easier to visualize what i am doing.


----------



## Al Sherwood

Nalleh said:


> Hi Al.
> 
> I am away on vacation at the moment, but i will see if there is something i can get done, to make it easier to visualize what i am doing.


Nalleh, that would be great, much appreciated!


----------



## jnnt29

Outstanding. Just incredible!


----------



## Nalleh

Al Sherwood said:


> Nalleh, that would be great, much appreciated!



Hi Al. I tried to make a drawing of how my setup is connected, but i am not sure if it makes it easier or harder to understand, LOOL.
let me know if you want more info.












@Scott Simonian: what do you think?


----------



## Scott Simonian

I know how it feels.


----------



## Al Sherwood

Nalleh said:


> Hi Al. I tried to make a drawing of how my setup is connected, but i am not sure if it makes it easier or harder to understand, LOOL.
> let me know if you want more info.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Scott Simonian: what do you think?


Nalleh, great job and just what I was looking for, Thanks! I think I saw in another thread where you where explain about the A/B switches?

I gather that the 7200WA is the input AVR...


----------



## Nalleh

Al Sherwood said:


> Nalleh, great job and just what I was looking for, Thanks! I think I saw in another thread where you where explain about the A/B switches?
> 
> I gather that the 7200WA is the input AVR...


Yes, the 7200 is the main AVR. The reason my setup is overly complicated, is because in normal TV watching and such, i use just the 7200 in a normal 7.1.4 setup. When i watch movies, on the other hand, i switch everything on, for the full 11.4.10 Frankie-setup.

So in a permanently HT setup, you would not need all the switches, as the movie mode would be the only mode.

Basically with the swithes and third AVR(simply used as a multi-source powered speaker switch, with all three zones in use), i can choose if the 7200 or the 5200 should power the surrounds, surround backs, and wides. And extend the 7200 and 5200 from 9 to 11 channels.


----------



## Al Sherwood

Nalleh said:


> Yes, the 7200 is the main AVR. The reason my setup is overly complicated, is because in normal TV watching and such, i use just the 7200 in a normal 7.1.4 setup. When i watch movies, on the other hand, i switch everything on, for the full 11.4.10 Frankie-setup.
> 
> So in a permanently HT setup, you would not need all the switches, as the movie mode would be the only mode.
> 
> Basically with the swithes and third AVR(simply used as a multi-source powered speaker switch, with all three zones in use), i can choose if the 7200 or the 5200 should power the surrounds, surround backs, and wides. And extend the 7200 and 5200 from 9 to 11 channels.



Thanks for the details of your configuration, must be an impressive site in the rack!


----------



## Nalleh

Updated first post with more pics, and updated gear list.


----------



## todj

How do you like that center channel? I have been looking at those lately.


----------



## Nalleh

todj said:


> How do you like that center channel? I have been looking at those lately.


I love my Klipsch speakers, they are really dynamic and have plenty of power, more than i use, so they are great value for money.

Sidenote:
Just ordered two more Crowsons, and a Behringer B1200D for MBM duty. Can't wait


----------



## PanGalacticGargleBlaster

First, awesome system!

Second, which do you find you prefer from a sound quality standpoint - Atmos, DTS:X or AURO 3D? I am considering getting the Yamaha RX-A3060 or the CX-A5100 but they don't have AURO 3D and I keep reading good things about it. I also like the Denon and the Marantz systems and don't want to miss out if AURO 3D is the better option.


----------



## Murbella7

Nalleh said:


> I love my Klipsch speakers, they are really dynamic and have plenty of power, more than i use, so they are great value for money.
> 
> Sidenote:
> Just ordered two more Crowsons, and a Behringer B1200D for MBM duty. Can't wait


I too run a Denon X7200 WA. Do you have video dropouts?
After watching stuff for just on 2hrs, I get 1-3 droputs in a row, lasting about 10-15 seconds each, with 2-3 minutes between them, then it seems to settle down again. This happens when using my JVC X3 projector not the TV.


----------



## Nalleh

PanGalacticGargleBlaster said:


> First, awesome system!
> 
> Second, which do you find you prefer from a sound quality standpoint - Atmos, DTS:X or AURO 3D? I am considering getting the Yamaha RX-A3060 or the CX-A5100 but they don't have AURO 3D and I keep reading good things about it. I also like the Denon and the Marantz systems and don't want to miss out if AURO 3D is the better option.


Thanks.
Regarding upmixers, i probably use DSU most, on a daily basis, It works best with 2-channel PCM in normal TV watching.
When speaking about native format, i actually love Auro 3D. It has the most natural, dynamic and logical placements of sounds. DTS:X is a a bit like Auro and has great 3D soundscape, while Atmos is the least agressive of them all.

HOWEVER: the big problem with Auro is content. Or lack thereof. 



Murbella7 said:


> I too run a Denon X7200 WA. Do you have video dropouts?
> After watching stuff for just on 2hrs, I get 1-3 droputs in a row, lasting about 10-15 seconds each, with 2-3 minutes between them, then it seems to settle down again. This happens when using my JVC X3 projector not the TV.


I had those problems when my 5200 was new, two years ago, but new HDMI cables solved it.


----------



## shivaji

Murbella7 said:


> I too run a Denon X7200 WA. Do you have video dropouts?
> After watching stuff for just on 2hrs, I get 1-3 droputs in a row, lasting about 10-15 seconds each, with 2-3 minutes between them, then it seems to settle down again. This happens when using my JVC X3 projector not the TV.


Dig your Avatar. The Bene Gesserit Witch reverend Mother.


----------



## dicksop

*Dolby Atmos Setup Questions*

I am looking for a little help in my set up of my Home theatre.
I run PSB speakers (Alpha B and C's...fronts, center,sub,side surround and back surround) and the new PSB Atmos speakers that sit on top of the front right and left speakers. I am only running front Dolby ATMOS speakers, no rears.
I have the Denon AVR-X4100W Receiver as well as the Denon AVR 3802 receiver.
The 4100 is driving all the speakers except the DOLBY ATMOS speakers, which are run from the 3802. (RCA pre out from the height speaker out on the 4100 to the front L/R in on the 3802. I have 2 subs which are run from the sub 1 and 2 pre outs on the 4100.

So... the question is in the Auddesey setup and what speaker setup to choose.

It gives me all sorts of options including 9.1 speaker, Dolby ATMOS Speaker and 7.1 speaker setups.
Which is correct?
I currently have it on 9.1 with front dolby speakers. Should I be using the Dolby ATMOS speaker configuration.???
A little confused here....any help would be appreciated.


----------



## liffie420

That is just a bonkers set up, in the most awesome ways. I am curious how large is that room? I mean it looks fairly small for the amount of speakers you have going on in there, I mean compared to the size rooms you normally see when people running a set up close to yours. Although there are probably not many running something near that complicated. But this place being what it is I am sure someone will chime in with their 32.16.153 9 AVR uber set up. And out of curiosity what remote do you use to control that bad boy? Im still amazed by the layout of it and that diagram. Heck I sitting here just finally getting ready to set up my first legit 5.2 set up.


----------



## Nalleh

dicksop said:


> I currently have it on 9.1 with front dolby speakers. Should I be using the Dolby ATMOS speaker configuration.???
> A little confused here....any help would be appreciated.


You have the correct setup.



liffie420 said:


> That is just a bonkers set up, in the most awesome ways. I am curious how large is that room? I mean it looks fairly small for the amount of speakers you have going on in there, I mean compared to the size rooms you normally see when people running a set up close to yours. Although there are probably not many running something near that complicated. But this place being what it is I am sure someone will chime in with their 32.16.153 9 AVR uber set up. And out of curiosity what remote do you use to control that bad boy? Im still amazed by the layout of it and that diagram. Heck I sitting here just finally getting ready to set up my first legit 5.2 set up.


Yup, you are correct, this is bonkers and totally overkill. I would probably be very happy with a normal 7.1.4 setup, but hey: i wanted to see if it could work  And it does, rather exellent too 

Good point about the room size, forgot about that:

5.1x4.1x2.4 meter

16.5Wx13.5Dx7.8H feet, or about 3000 cubic feet.

I use a Logitech Harmony Ultimate with two extra extenders(4 total+the hub of course), and it works perfect. The 7200 is switched to remote code ID2, so they work independently.

However when i am switching from TV to movie watching, i still have to do a couple of things manually, if it is Atmos:
Disable 7200 SB(to gain wides)
Switch SB over to 5200( powered from Yama's zone2)
Switch SURR over to 5200(sp.switch1)

So i still use the original remotes regurlary. But hey, i am pedantic


----------



## liffie420

Ok wow that is a fairly small room. Though my living room is not much larger. Man i bet that set up rivals a theater all day long. If nothing else that is one hell of a piece or wiring and engineering most setups i have seen on here that involved are probably in the $30,000 to $50,000 range


----------



## Nalleh

liffie420 said:


> $50,000 range


Halfway there, or thereabouts


----------



## liffie420

That's certainly a hell of a build for the money


----------



## Nalleh

Here is a clip showing the Crowsons in use playing the drop scene from Lone Survivor:






I had REW going with RTA showing the chopper blades are at 6.5 Hz!!, and as you can see the whole couch is shaking. (Sorry for the dark video).
This is at MV -20.


----------



## Scott Simonian

Heheh. Yeah. That scene is pretty epic for sustained single digit bass. A house and system wrecker.


----------



## Nalleh

Scott Simonian said:


> Heheh. Yeah. That scene is pretty epic for sustained single digit bass. A house and system wrecker.


Yeah, even better than "F...king Irene"


----------



## Nalleh

And here is the latest gadget, the B1200D-Pro.









Also shows the KEF beside it, as i used two of them as midbass earlier. Actually added conciderably more than i thought, but not near as much as the 1200, which is awsome. Insane punch out of that little gem.


----------



## TheCableMan

Hey Nalleh, what in you experience has been the best sounding movie and/or game you have heard on your system? I could have fun there playing some Call of Duty.


----------



## Nalleh

TheCableMan said:


> Hey Nalleh, what in you experience has been the best sounding movie and/or game you have heard on your system? I could have fun there playing some Call of Duty.


Actually, i haven't played any games so far, lool. But i only play driving games anyway 

Regarding movies, two moments stand out.

1. First time i played Transformers 4, the first Atmos movie in my freshly connected Atmos 7.1.4 system. Awsome, just awsome, i was flabbergasted

2. A little later, when i watched the movie Red Tails in native Auro 10.1. This was just jawdropping, and so much fun, i smiled the whole time.

But i now have over 100 Atmos titles, all the DTS:X ones and all Auro movies, so here are a lot of good ones.
Those who comes to mind are Gravity, Fifth Element, Pacific Rim, Jupiter Ascending, Lucy, both Ninja Turtle movies, Unbroken.....


----------



## Scott Simonian

Nalleh said:


> And here is the latest gadget, the B1200D-Pro.
> 
> 
> Also shows the KEF beside it, as i used two of them as midbass earlier. Actually added conciderably more than i thought, but not near as much as the 1200, which is awsome. Insane punch out of that little gem.


Not surprised. Your speakers are tiny. You need this. 

Should kick up the fun with this and Crowson's.


----------



## Nalleh

Scott Simonian said:


> Not surprised. Your speakers are tiny. You need this.
> 
> Should kick up the fun with this and Crowson's.


Tiny? What on earth are you talking about? Besides: everybody has tiny speakers compared to you, you are damaged goods, man 

If you are talking about my Atmos speakers, sure they are small, but i don't play at reference anyway, so it's all good 

And hey, my PSA S3000i has dual 15" and the SVS has dual 12". So they're not THAT tiny.

If anything the B1200 is the tiny one


----------



## Ruckus55

Your electronic wiring skills impress me. Nice set up!


----------



## tails

Ruckus55 said:


> Your electronic wiring skills impress me. Nice set up!


Indeed, very interesting setup!


----------



## Nalleh

Thanks guys. 

Ok a little work to do today. Just bought a demoed AVR-X6200W, so going to replace my 5200 and calibrate it all today.

So i now have HDMI 2.0 and DTS:X on both AVR's and can get the same 9.1.8 DTS:X as i get in Atmos.

Should also simplify my UHD HDR watching.










Not much difference, looks exactly the same, LOL.


----------



## Al Sherwood

Awesome, I think it is great that you continue to evolve your set-up, looking forward to your impressions of 9.1.8 DTS:X !


----------



## Nalleh

Done. DTS:X 9.1.8 










I have also turned around a bit on the ceiling speakers. By using the vertical mount i got a lot more angle to play with, so i adjusted them at the MLP. That is, the left ones at the right MLP, and the right ones at the left MLP, for energy trading. As mounted before, straight down, in scenes with for example rain from above, i tended to hear that from "my" side of ceiling speakers, not from centered above. This is now much better.




























I also have received my two new Crowsons, so I now have 4 under the couch. Seems more effective, effortless and they run cooler.
And got a new amp for the Crowsons, anybody wanna guess?










Yup, i got a Inuke NU6000DSP 










Horrible fan noise, but had two Noctua fans, so i switched them out. Virtually silent now, and the amp never runs hot.


----------



## Nalleh

Sweet cristmas, that mad scientist @maikeldepotter got me thinking about a possible expansion of my setup:



maikeldepotter said:


> Now that would be interesting alternative approach:
> Activating Width speakers in both configurations (CONFIG-1: 5.1.4+wides, CONFIG-2: 7.1.2+wides), to subsequently:
> (a) combine signals of both configurations to feed one set of Width speakers, or
> (b) keep signals separate to feed an additional sets of Wides.
> 
> This last option would be my new favorite for using multiple AVRs/processors, as it enables a 13.1.4 lay-out:
> - C + L/R at 25/30 degrees (from CONFIG-1 or CONFIG-2, as now they are identical)
> - 'pure' Wides at 50 degrees (from CONFIG-2)
> - Wides/Surrounds mix at 70 degrees (from CONFIG-1)
> - 'pure' Surrounds at 90 degrees (from CONFIG-2)
> - Surround/Rears mix at 120 degrees (from CONFIG-1)
> - 'pure' Rears at 150 degrees (from CONFIG-2)
> 
> As this multiple AVR/processor set-up includes those 'Special Wides' or 'Surround-Wides' found in a Atmos 5.1.x+wides configuration, it could be referred to as SWATMOS, available in either 11.1.4 or 13.1.4.
> 
> 
> 
> As explained above, I believe it CAN be made 'technically correct' for ATMOS. Even more so, it will probably deliver an experience closer to that of a mixing stage or cinema, as it creates arrayed bed channel surrounds (3 pair, one of which shared with rears) and rears (2 pairs, one of which shared with surrounds).
> 
> .


Should i go for it?


----------



## Al Sherwood

Nalleh said:


> Sweet cristmas, that mad scientist @maikeldepotter got me thinking about a possible expansion of my setup:
> 
> 
> 
> Should i go for it?


Worth a try for sure!

I am beginning to think that I need to mount the speakers on a rail system that allows easy repositioning of the surrounds and ceiling speakers along known paths...


----------



## Nalleh

Al Sherwood said:


> Worth a try for sure!
> 
> I am beginning to think that I need to mount the speakers on a rail system that allows easy repositioning of the surrounds and ceiling speakers along known paths...


Not such a bad idea actually. It would simplify adjusting between different formats.


----------



## Nalleh

BTW, when we remodeled the living room, i was looking for a way to "map" where the speakers should go in this room according to Atmos guidelines.

I am a total amatour in Sketchup, but i managed to make a simple drawing with my dimension and the angles for all Atmos speakers. This helped and confirmed i was on the right track.


----------



## Nalleh

And for the heights. With the dimensions all laid out, it was much easier to get the speakers were tey should be.


----------



## Al Sherwood

^^^ Great idea Nalleh, I was thinking about the best way to locate these. using SketchUp is going to make this way easier!


----------



## Foundation42

Nice setup! I've been considering what it would take to implement a dual AVR setup to get to 9.1.4, so seeing how you have your setup configured is very helpful. I don't think I would take it quite as far as you have to get to 9.1.8, but then again...


----------



## Nalleh

Well, after some more testing i have desided that Swatmos need to happen!

I will get more into it next week, i just need to plan how it is best configured, but it will now include 3 !?! Atmos AVR's for a total of 13.1.8 Atmos setup. Even so, i think i can get a simpler setup and operation than i have now, and easier switch to all 3 formats.

Stay tuned.


----------



## Al Sherwood

Nalleh said:


> Well, after some more testing i have desided that Swatmos need to happen!
> 
> I will get more into it next week, i just need to plan how it is best configured, but it will now include 3 !?! Atmos AVR's for a total of 13.1.8 Atmos setup. Even so, i think i can get a simpler setup and operation than i have now, and easier switch to all 3 formats.
> 
> Stay tuned.



This does sound interesting!


Careful Trinnov will be watching you!


----------



## Nalleh

13.1.8 Franken-SWAtmos is up and running 










As you can see, the two bottom AVR's have wides active(the little channel indicator to the right in front display: pure wides and wides/sur1.

And it is working as intended. More details is coming.


----------



## liffie420

Foundation42 said:


> Nice setup! I've been considering what it would take to implement a dual AVR setup to get to 9.1.4, so seeing how you have your setup configured is very helpful. I don't think I would take it quite as far as you have to get to 9.1.8, but then again...


I have to say if your looking for advice and tips on running "crazy" speaker combos Nalleh is probably the best person to ask here LOL Of course its only "crazy" outside of the AVS forums here his 11.4.12 is practically to simple haha


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, since getting the SWATMOS idea from @maikeldepotter, i decided to test it out. So, the idea is based on the discovery that the wides play different content as a result of how you activate them. You can do that two ways:
1. Use just one set of height speakers for a 9.1.2 setup.
This results in objects only playing from the wides.

2. Use no rear surrounds for a 5.1.4 +wides setup.
Now the wides play a mix of objects and surround sounds, but not exactly the same content as neither the "pure" wides, nor the "pure" surrounds.

At the same time as this was discussed in the "wide appreciation thread", i upgraded my non-DTS:X Denon 5200 to a 6200. I WAS going to sell the 5200, but the aforementioned suggestion got me fired up. So to test this out, i had all three Atmos AVR's connected to the following:

First AVR setup in a 9.1.2 setup for "pure wides" playing ONLY these wides, all others silent.
Second AVR setup in 5.1.4+W setup for Wides/Sur1 playing ONLY these wides, all others silent.
Third one setup in a 9.1.2 setup for "pure" surrounds, playing only these surrounds, all others silent.

I could now play any combination of these 3 sets of speakers, and listen to differences. I used severeal of the Atmos demo tracks and also the Bailando music video, as music har repetetiv and consistent sounds.

As the Bailando video was a very good example to use, let's do that:

Pure wides: can be silent 5-10 seconds at a time, and then play one distinct sound, very "digital". By that i mean it starts and ends very sudden, no ambiance, no echo, just very "dry", presise sounds.

Wides/Sur1: this is a lot more like normal surround sound, much more sounds, and you can hear some percussions and chorus playing. And these sounds have more ambiance, not so "on/off", and more "smooth".

Pure surrounds: these play even more chorus, and now you can hear guitars, and other sounds. Very clear difference when muting and un-muting these versus only the two sets of wides.

So clearly not the same content in these 3 sets of channels.

Also, with just the two sets of wides playing, i could not only hear pannings side to side, but also front to back! I was surpised by this, but i noticed this in several of the tracks.

And after enabling all speaker for the full 13.1.8, one thing is very noticable : the presision and placement of sound coming from the front corners, between my fronts and pure surrounds, are much better. Now playing Leaf, Amaze, or films like Gravity, it is the the best i have heard from my setup!

I will update the first post with the new setup, wich is actually a lot simpler, despite now including 3 Atmos AVR's. (And still my Yama Multi-zone-active-speaker-switch).

Here is a pic of the new "SURROUND ARRAY". From left in pic:
Pure Wides @50 degrees (floorstanders)
Wides/Sur1 @70 degrees
Pure [email protected] degrees
Sur2/Rears @ 110 degrees.

Surround back(out of pic) @150 degrees.


----------



## Nalleh

First post updated with new setup and some pics


----------



## maikeldepotter

Nalleh said:


> Also, with just the two sets of wides playing, i could not only hear pannings side to side, but also front to back! I was surpised by this, but i noticed this in several of the tracks.


During such experiment, were you able to identify any sounds appearing in the 'pure wides' (at 50 degrees), while at that very same time being completely absent from the 'surround wides' (at 70 degrees)? I would think that such moments will not occur...

On the other hand, with just the 'surround wides' (at 70 degrees) and the 'pure surrounds' (at 90 degrees) playing, I think you might be able to identify sounds playing in the 'pure surrounds' while at that same time NOT in the 'surround wides'. That would confirm the hypothesis that only surround bed channel info is copied to the 'surround wides', and not the sound objects positioned at the surround location.


----------



## Mashie Saldana

I think you should rename this thread to "Evolution of madness". 

When you play Atmos, is there any difference in sound between your top an heights speakers?


----------



## Nalleh

maikeldepotter said:


> During such experiment, were you able to identify any sounds appearing in the 'pure wides' (at 50 degrees), while at that very same time being completely absent from the 'surround wides' (at 70 degrees)? I would think that such moments will not occur...


No, the 'surround wides' simply had more sounds than the 'pure wides', and they were not as 'digital'. When listening to each of these wides channels seperate, labeling 'pure wides' as OBJECTS ONLY and 'surround wides' as SURROUND channels is a good description.




maikeldepotter said:


> On the other hand, with just the 'surround wides' (at 70 degrees) and the 'pure surrounds' (at 90 degrees) playing, I think you might be able to identify sounds playing in the 'pure surrounds' while at that same time NOT in the 'surround wides'. That would confirm the hypothesis that only surround bed channel info is copied to the 'surround wides', and not the sound objects positioned at the surround location.


That is correct, and the clearest example was as i mentioned the guitars in Bailando: clearly in the 'pure surrounds', but not at all in the 'surround wides' (and of course not in the 'pure wides' either).

When i discovered that these 3 sets of channels did not have the same content at all, that was enough, i was sold on SWAtmos 





Mashie Saldana said:


> I think you should rename this thread to "Evolution of madness".
> 
> When you play Atmos, is there any difference in sound between your top an heights speakers?


Yeah, the madness don't seem to stop, especially when browsing this forum 

Playing ONLY 4 heights vs playing ONLY 4 tops: no, as both ways pull all height info out of the ear level speakers. But as the helicopter demo clip showed, heights vs top do behave different. And the placement is of course different. And using all 8 helps in planting the sounds better when panning front to back and visa versa.


----------



## Socio

I like your more is better approach, it looks like you are using a center height in your mix, how are creating this channel or are you just using the center preout to drive the center height speaker?


----------



## Nalleh

Socio said:


> I like your more is better approach, it looks like you are using a center height in your mix, how are creating this channel or are you just using the center preout to drive the center height speaker?


Yes, i use the center output from the 6200 to power the "center height". That way it is correctly calibrated and EQ'ed, not just connected in parallel to the 7200 center.

Read more about it in the first post


----------



## Nalleh

Did a quick and dirty diagram of the setup.
Blue speakers powered by the 7200.
Red speakers powered by the 6200.
Yellow speakers powered by the 5200.


----------



## Foundation42

Nalleh said:


> Ok, since getting the SWATMOS idea from @*maikeldepotter* , i decided to test it out. So, the idea is based on the discovery that the wides play different content as a result of how you activate them. You can do that two ways:
> 1. Use just one set of height speakers for a 9.1.2 setup.
> This results in objects only playing from the wides.
> 
> 2. Use no rear surrounds for a 5.1.4 +wides setup.
> Now the wides play a mix of objects and surround sounds, but not exactly the same content as neither the "pure" wides, nor the "pure" surrounds.
> 
> At the same time as this was discussed in the "wide appreciation thread", i upgraded my non-DTS:X Denon 5200 to a 6200. I WAS going to sell the 5200, but the aforementioned suggestion got me fired up. So to test this out, i had all three Atmos AVR's connected to the following:
> 
> First AVR setup in a 9.1.2 setup for "pure wides" playing ONLY these wides, all others silent.
> Second AVR setup in 5.1.4+W setup for Wides/Sur1 playing ONLY these wides, all others silent.
> Third one setup in a 9.1.2 setup for "pure" surrounds, playing only these surrounds, all others silent.
> 
> I could now play any combination of these 3 sets of speakers, and listen to differences. I used severeal of the Atmos demo tracks and also the Bailando music video, as music har repetetiv and consistent sounds.
> 
> As the Bailando video was a very good example to use, let's do that:
> 
> Pure wides: can be silent 5-10 seconds at a time, and then play one distinct sound, very "digital". By that i mean it starts and ends very sudden, no ambiance, no echo, just very "dry", presise sounds.
> 
> Wides/Sur1: this is a lot more like normal surround sound, much more sounds, and you can hear some percussions and chorus playing. And these sounds have more ambiance, not so "on/off", and more "smooth".
> 
> Pure surrounds: these play even more chorus, and now you can hear guitars, and other sounds. Very clear difference when muting and un-muting these versus only the two sets of wides.
> 
> So clearly not the same content in these 3 sets of channels.
> 
> Also, with just the two sets of wides playing, i could not only hear pannings side to side, but also front to back! I was surpised by this, but i noticed this in several of the tracks.
> 
> And after enabling all speaker for the full 13.1.8, one thing is very noticable : the presision and placement of sound coming from the front corners, between my fronts and pure surrounds, are much better. Now playing Leaf, Amaze, or films like Gravity, it is the the best i have heard from my setup!
> 
> I will update the first post with the new setup, wich is actually a lot simpler, despite now including 3 Atmos AVR's. (And still my Yama Multi-zone-active-speaker-switch).
> 
> Here is a pic of the new "SURROUND ARRAY". From left in pic:
> Pure Wides @50 degrees (floorstanders)
> Wides/Sur1 @70 degrees
> Pure [email protected] degrees
> Sur2/Rears @ 110 degrees.
> 
> Surround back(out of pic) @150 degrees.


Great information! Given your findings, what would your recommendation be for adding a single pair of wide speakers to a 7.1.4 layout? Is your second test configuration (5.1.4+W) the better target to look toward for the second AVR when trying to get to 9.1.4?

My playing with the pure wide configuration (9.1.2)) found the same thing you did as far as the very on or off nature of what was sent to those speakers.


----------



## Al Sherwood

Nalleh said:


> Did a quick and dirty diagram of the setup.
> Blue speakers powered by the 7200.
> Red speakers powered by the 6200.
> Yellow speakers powered by the 5200.


Simply wow! The speaker layout with the added colour is almost as exciting as Atmos itself! 

Really helps to explain how you have this running, thanks for sharing!

BTW, this is the layout that I would like to achieve for my HT (I have all of the required speakers on hand).


----------



## Nalleh

Foundation42 said:


> Great information! Given your findings, what would your recommendation be for adding a single pair of wide speakers to a 7.1.4 layout? Is your second test configuration (5.1.4+W) the better target to look toward for the second AVR when trying to get to 9.1.4?
> 
> My playing with the pure wide configuration (9.1.2)) found the same thing you did as far as the very on or off nature of what was sent to those speakers.


Well, it depends. I guess technically the 9.1.0 + 0.0.4 dual layout is the most correct, but it would probably also be were you least notice wides. While a 7.1.4 + wides (from a 5.1.+W second setup) would be more noticable, espesially if you mounted them wide, like closer to 70 degress. They really work well with the surround to widen both the surround field and the 'cinematic' wide front field.




Al Sherwood said:


> Simply wow! The speaker layout with the added colour is almost as exciting as Atmos itself!
> 
> Really helps to explain how you have this running, thanks for sharing!
> 
> BTW, this is the layout that I would like to achieve for my HT (I have all of the required speakers on hand).


You're welcome 

Well, i wonder if i am approaching the point diminishing returns regarding speaker count, LOL.


----------



## Al Sherwood

Nalleh said:


> Well, it depends. I guess technically the 9.1.0 + 0.0.4 dual layout is the most correct, but it would probably also be were you least notice wides. While a 7.1.4 + wides (from a 5.1.+W second setup) would be more noticable, espesially if you mounted them wide, like closer to 70 degress. They really work well with the surround to widen both the surround field and the 'cinematic' wide front field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome
> 
> *Well, i wonder if i am approaching the point diminishing returns regarding speaker count, LOL*.


I would say that given a singular row of seating and you are about covered!


----------



## rontalley

Confused as to the separation for the heights. I get set of rears, fronts and scatmos TM. In this config, only the matrix middle would play in TM and there would be no redundancy...

However in your .8 how much separation are you getting from RH and TR and same question with fronts? Seems like you would actually be shrinking the sound stage with your .8 vs. .6 scatmos..


----------



## Socio

Nalleh said:


> Did a quick and dirty diagram of the setup.
> Blue speakers powered by the 7200.
> Red speakers powered by the 6200.
> Yellow speakers powered by the 5200.


That is a nice diagram layout what did you use to create it?


----------



## Socio

Nalleh said:


> Well, it depends. I guess technically the 9.1.0 + 0.0.4 dual layout is the most correct, but it would probably also be were you least notice wides. While a 7.1.4 + wides (from a 5.1.+W second setup) would be more noticable, espesially if you mounted them wide, like closer to 70 degress. They really work well with the surround to widen both the surround field and the 'cinematic' wide front field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome
> 
> Well, i wonder if i am approaching the point diminishing returns regarding speaker count, LOL.


Now instead of heights you need some lowers, get another receiver and some Klipsch RP140SA's to go on the ground below the Klipsch RS52's to complete your pillars of sound. 

Or Klipsch down firing RS8-W subs below the Klipsch RS52's and split the pre-outs for the Klipsch RS52's to those subs giving your self surround subs.


----------



## Nalleh

Socio said:


> That is a nice diagram layout what did you use to create it?


Haha, funny story, i found the 24.1.10 Dolby Atmos drawing online, and then used "DOODLEFREE" on my Ipad to modify it. It's a child's app, LOOL !


----------



## Socio

Nalleh said:


> Haha, funny story, i found the 24.1.10 Dolby Atmos drawing online, and then used "DOODLEFREE" on my Ipad to modify it. It's a child's app, LOOL !


Well for a child's app that turned out real good!


----------



## Nalleh

rontalley said:


> Confused as to the separation for the heights. I get set of rears, fronts and scatmos TM. In this config, only the matrix middle would play in TM and there would be no redundancy...
> 
> However in your .8 how much separation are you getting from RH and TR and same question with fronts? Seems like you would actually be shrinking the sound stage with your .8 vs. .6 scatmos..


Sorry, i missed this post completely.

Well, no it doesn't. With tops and heights, panning sounds doesn't have do rely on phantom imaging as much, since there is sounds from a actual speaker instead. Pannings both front to rear and left to right works beatifully, and is very precise.


----------



## Nalleh

*More SWATMOS testing.*

So, after some discussion in the multi AVR thread, i decided to do some practical tests with my AVR's "on top of each other" setup. I was trying to hear if they manage to phantom sounds to the same placement, or shifted sound when muting/unmuting config1 or config2.

Earlier i had noticed that the 9.1.6 Atmos test tones are a good way to test different setup, and one example is the side surround test tone.
In a regular 7.1 or 9.1 setup, that tone comes from the side surround speaker(only), optimally @90 degrees, as it should.
However, in a 5.1+wides setup, that tone is phantomed(@90 degrees) between the side surround and wide speakers, since in a 5.1 setup, side surrounds are placed further back(@110-120 degrees), to compensate for no surround backs.

By playing this test tone alternating between config1(5.1+W), config2(9.1) or both i could test if it sounds/phantoms as it should.

First test actually revealed that it did shift forward with config1 (5.1+W) on, but then i remember that i bumped the special wides and reduced the surr/rear mix, so i thought it was best to start from scratch. Since i did the last Audyssey calibration, i had only used the AVR's internal test tones to check channel levels. But i now went trough each channel on all 3 AVR's using the 9.1.6 Atmos test tones to set the levels, and it was some discrepancy here and there. So with all channels level matched, i did the test again, and now it worked surprisingly well. Much better than i thought.
I then listened trough most of the Atmos demo clips, and as a base, the 2 first AVR's were playing in the accepted 9.1.4 setup, and then i continously unmuted/muted the config1 AVR, thereby filling in special wides, surr/rear mix and the 4 tops.

I could not hear any shift/smear in sounds/ effects or pannings, in fact what i could hear was increased stability and more pronounced and precise pannings, and a sense of bigger sound bouble. No artifacts, nothing standing out as negative effects.

Actually, in listening to the Bailando music video(again), i was very surprised by how easy this bigger sound bubble was to hear. I closed my eyes and frantically pressed the config1 mute button, to the point where i did not know if it was muted or not, and with eyes still closed i repetedly pressed mute button slowly, and tried to guess if it was muted or not(blind test?). I got it correct each time, surprisingly NOT because it got louder, not at all, but it got wider and taller in all directions. This was the "cinematic" effect of the special wides, but it also added a similar effect to the rear outer corner, adding more space. And the tops continued that effect upwards. Simply a bigger 3D sound bubble.

I also played the opening scene in Gravity, my favourite Atmos demo scene.
And it was awsome, added stability in Houston crew voices panning around the room, clearer sounds from the wide position, taller effects from the ceiling, i ended up just smiling, and enjoying the scene .
It truly is a awsome soundtrack, just too bad the Atmos edition isn't 3D picture as well.


All in all, any afternoon ending with a better sound is a good afternoon.


----------



## Nalleh

Got a little upgrade today:










Got a good deal on a used JVC RS600, so the X500 has to go:










This projector is insane! There is so much light and everything is upgraded compared to X500, so every movie is jawdropping.

Also got a Linker, so i can load @Manni01 custom gamma curves, so this should be fun


----------



## Nalleh

And i renamed the sources on the 3 AVR's. You like? (Bottom right one)


----------



## Manni01

Nalleh said:


> Got a little upgrade today:
> 
> ...
> 
> Also got a Linker, so i can load @Manni01 custom gamma curves, so this should be fun


Hi Nalleh,

Looks great, I'm sure you're going to enjoy this upgrade a lot 

Just to clarify, the linker isn't necessary to load the custom gamma curves. It's only necessary to prevent the JVC from forcing Gamma D whenever it detects HDR, and also to allow the DI in HDR. Without the linker, you can still load custom gamma curves but you have to select them manually every time you start a film, and you can't enable the DI with HDR content.

Have fun!


----------



## Nalleh

Manni01 said:


> Hi Nalleh,
> 
> Looks great, I'm sure you're going to enjoy this upgrade a lot
> 
> Just to clarify, the linker isn't necessary to load the custom gamma curves. It's only necessary to prevent the JVC from forcing Gamma D whenever it detects HDR, and also to allow the DI in HDR. Without the linker, you can still load custom gamma curves but you have to select them manually every time you start a film, and you can't enable the DI with HDR content.
> 
> Have fun!


Yes i know, just formulated it wrong. With the linker i have all options. In fact i already imported one of your latest curves, and it was much better than gamma D. Mindboglingly good 

Strictly speaking i did not need the linker, as you said, but after connecting the RS600 with the UB900 in the front A/V rack and using my old 12,5 meter HDMI cable, i could only get HDR BT2020 4:2:2 12bit to the RS 600. Altough that is HDR, I was not satisfied, so i did the following:

I now had the UB900 , a Integral, a Linker, and the RS600 and i had bought HDFURY HDMI certified cables, 4 units @ 2 meters each. So by using one cable between each component it was long enough to reach the projector, LOOL. So i then got the full HDR BT2020 4:4:4 12bit, and deep colour 12bit on th RS600 info.

And i can use the custom EDID on Integral to watch SDR BT2020 or rec709 if i want. And activate/deactive HDR with the Linker.

Awsome.


----------



## Al Sherwood

Awesome progress and updates Nalleh!

Always something interesting to see and read when you post to this thread... thanks!


----------



## Eric Hamilton

That is absolutely out of this world! I'd never would have thought to build something like this! Outstanding!


----------



## maikeldepotter

@Nalleh

I was wondering, did you ever experiment with a double pair of TMs (FH-TM + TM-RH) instead of the FH-RH + TF-TR combination you are using now? The advantage would be not having a signal intended for the TM position spread all the way from front to back.


----------



## Nalleh

maikeldepotter said:


> @Nalleh
> 
> I was wondering, did you ever experiment with a double pair of TMs (FH-TM + TM-RH) instead of the FH-RH + TF-TR combination you are using now? The advantage would be not having a signal intended for the TM position spread all the way from front to back.


Yeah, i did try 'overlapping' vs 'on top of each other' setups.

Consider this:

In a dual TM Setup, if a overhead sound/panning goes from the rear to front(or vica versa), setup1(FH+TM) has to start that sound in the TM, or right above you, and pans to the front(FH), while setup2 (TM+RH) starts it (correctly) from the rear(RH), and ends at TM, above you= sounds from 2 different places all the way=smearing.

Either way you get more action from above, but less precise with dual TM's.

My setup might be called a 'wide TM' setup, as both setups has to phantom TM, but it is more stable because of a height(wide) setup and a top(narrow) setup = more speakers placed different trying to sound from the same place.

Remeber the placement of all my overhead speakers is not correct, with all 4 tops in front of MLP, but placed as equidistant along the ceiling as possible.


----------



## Nalleh

Ideas, ideas.

That Depotter dude got me thinking AGAIN !

In Auro 3D my 4 Atmos tops are unused. In the Auro guidelines it says you can use 4 VOG's, and you can use Atmos guidelines for the tops for these. So i am going to see if i can test this.

Auro to the left and Atmos to the right:


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, so the discussion leading up to this test started in the Auro thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...ad-home-theater-version-161.html#post53483330

Where Auro saids that 2 or 4 Atmos tops can be used for Auro Top Surrounds, so since i have both heights and tops, and my tops are unused in Auro, i thought i could see if it could work.

First, even though there are guidelines for this( on Atmos and Auro, discussed in the link), i was left with what i already had setup as ceiling speakers. This means they are not quite according to specs.
My seating arrangement is a two seater recliner, so there is a left and a right MLP.
I have a correct placed Top Surround today, used for Auro 10.1. Straight up and centered.
I have Atmos top Fronts @45 degrees median, placed a little inside the front speakers, @2.5 meters apart(left/right).
And Top Rears @ ca 80 degrees median, in other words slightly in front of MLP, same width as TF.

So what i did was rewire the 4 Atmos tops to a ext. amp with a speaker A and speaker B output, so i could switch between one set, or both. Sent top surround pre-out from the Denon 5200 to this amp via a y-connector, and this way i could test all options.

However i have tested more than one top surround before, where i used my (then) top middles as top surrounds, and did not like it, as it moved the resulting sound from VOG to my left side MLP, and almost past my straight up position, or from my top middle left speaker. And that did not sound 'correct' in my opinion.

And i got the same result now. Engaging either Top Rear or Top Front as Auro Top Surround shifted the sound to my leftside MLP, and it sounded like only my left tops were active. Even all 4 activated did not help. I even have all ceiling speakers aimed at the opposite side, for energy trading.
This can probably be a result of my tops beeing mounted to wide, outside spec(for 4 Auro VOG's anyway), but i did not want to move any ceiling speakers AGAIN.

However, i did find a happy compromise.
By using my exisiting correct Top Surround in combination with only my Atmos Top Rears, i got the best from both parts:
Auro Top Surround centered the soundfield from above, and stopped it from coming from my left speaker.
Atmos Top Rears as Top Surround widened the soundfield and moved it slightly forward, decoupled it from the speakers, so to speak.

So using 3 ! speakers as Top Surround gave the best result, without moving any speakers.

I will used this setup for now, and test it some more as i get some more time.

Here is a pic showing the sofa, TF(barely in right upper corner), TR, VOG, RH(on wall), and SurrBack. Also SH(Auro) in the rear corner on ceiling.

Sorry for the dark pic


----------



## maikeldepotter

Nalleh said:


> So using 3 ! speakers as Top Surround gave the best result, without moving any speakers.


From Voice of God to Holy Trinity.:angel:
It all makes sense now.


----------



## Nalleh

maikeldepotter said:


> From Voice of God to *Holy Trinity*.:angel:
> It all makes sense now.


Indeed !

Well, there could be a number of factors why i did not work. As i said, i have a two seater, and the seats are ca 1.2 meters apart, or 4 feet, and the ceiling speakers are 2.5 meters apart or ~8 feet. So speakers to wide.
Room to small. As Auro says, multiple Top Surrounds are for bigger rooms.
Ceiling to low, sound to localized.

I did a quick measurment of distance to each top speaker from my seat, and the difference were within the 2ms window of precedence.

*Now, i one could have a magnetic ceiling, and then magnetic mounts on the speakers, and wireless, then it would be much easier to test all possible setups *


----------



## Tka7

If you don't mind me asking, what are the dimensions of your room? I'm going back and forth on some room idea's for a theater but can't make up my mind. lol


----------



## maikeldepotter

Nalleh said:


> Well, there could be a number of factors why i did not work. As i said, i have a two seater, and the seats are ca 1.2 meters apart, or 4 feet, and the ceiling speakers are 2.5 meters apart or ~8 feet. So speakers to wide.


That is the main cause. With your ceiling height the 4 top speakers should be max 1.35 meter apart to create a sound that from any point in your seating area is perceived as coming from right above.



> Room to small. As Auro says, multiple Top Surrounds are for bigger rooms. Ceiling to low, sound to localized.


In fact, for small rooms with low ceilings Wilfried van Baelen's general advice is to forget about the VOG speaker, as its too close proximity can cause distracting speaker localization. If you nevertheless want to include the top channel in a small room/ low ceiling situation, applying multiple top speakers is still the best way to go. From Auro3D's guidelines:


> *This is also especially true for rooms with lower ceilings, as this will also help to minimize the proximity effect of a too closely positioned ceiling speaker.*





> I did a quick measurment of distance to each top speaker from my seat, and the difference were within the 2ms window of precedence.


Still, (as you have noticed) that does not prevent sound shifting to the left or right pair of speakers if you move a bit to the side. That is because a stereo phantom image created by a mono sound already collapses to one side with a time difference approaching 0.7 ms.



> *Now, i one could have a magnetic ceiling, and then magnetic mounts on the speakers, and wireless, then it would be much easier to test all possible setups *


For my 'Lab' I am currently designing a 'minimal headroom' system to slide speakers to any x,y position on the ceiling, including toeing and tilting facilities. It is still drawing table, and have yet to discuss the concept with a company specialized in steel constructions. These things take time... :serious:


----------



## Nalleh

Tka7 said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what are the dimensions of your room? I'm going back and forth on some room idea's for a theater but can't make up my mind. lol


From first post:



> 5.1x4.1x2.4 meter
> 
> 16.5Wx13.5Dx7.8H feet





maikeldepotter said:


> That is the main cause. With your ceiling height the 4 top speakers should be max 1.35 meter apart to create a sound that from any point in your seating area is perceived as coming from right above.
> 
> In fact, for small rooms with low ceilings Wilfried van Baelen's general advice is to forget about the VOG speaker, as its too close proximity can cause distracting speaker localization. If you nevertheless want to include the top channel in a small room/ low ceiling situation, applying multiple top speakers is still the best way to go. From Auro3D's guidelines:
> 
> Still, (as you have noticed) that does not prevent sound shifting to the left or right pair of speakers if you move a bit to the side. That is because a stereo phantom image created by a mono sound already collapses to one side with a time difference approaching 0.7 ms.
> 
> For my 'Lab' I am currently designing a 'minimal headroom' system to slide speakers to any x,y position on the ceiling, including toeing and tilting facilities. It is still drawing table, and have yet to discuss the concept with a company specialized in steel constructions. These things take time... :serious:


Yes, i agree. I need to make a temporary way to move the top speakers to test this further, and i am looking into it 

But the 'compromise' i found is ok for now, and still a upgrade from before, so it' all good.

Sound like a cool 'Lab' you're setting up. With small motors and and remote control it would be so much easier to hear differences


----------



## Socio

Nalleh said:


> From first post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, i agree. I need to make a temporary way to move the top speakers to test this further, and i am looking into it
> 
> But the 'compromise' i found is ok for now, and still a upgrade from before, so it' all good.
> 
> Sound like a cool 'Lab' you're setting up. With small motors and and remote control it would be so much easier to hear differences


I wonder if you could use something like those remote controlled telescoping drapery rods, ceiling mount them and have them move your speakers.? 

Even better if the remote is programmable so you can have an Auro3d button and a Atmos button and be able move the speakers into place depending on what you are listening to.


----------



## john barlow

Nalleh said:


> I get a lot of questions about my setup, so i tought i could make a thread explaining it a little more. And maybe some pics too.
> 
> Short version: i use more than one Atmos AVR's to expand beyond the 7.1.4/9.1.2 hardware limit on todays affordable gear.
> 
> Did a quick and dirty diagram of the setup.
> Blue speakers powered by the 7200.
> Red speakers powered by the 6200.
> Yellow speakers powered by the 5200.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will try to have the first post as updated about the setup as possible, and then take the details as we go.
> 
> Edit: updated Feb -17:
> 
> My HT is in the right half of my living room, and the room dimensions are:
> 
> 5.1x4.1x2.4 meter
> 
> 16.5Wx13.5Dx7.8H feet
> 
> Or about 3000 cubic feet (+ the other half).
> 
> *Gear.*
> Panasonic DMP-UB900 UHD player
> HD FURY Integral
> Oppo BDP-103 BD player
> Darbee Darblet
> Canal Digital HD PVR satellite-box
> Apple TV3
> PS3 (fat)
> XBOX360
> Denon AVR-X7200WA
> Denon AVR-X6200W
> Denon AVR-X5200W
> Yamaha RX-V3067
> Inuke NU6000DSP
> JVC DLA X500R
> Dreamscreen V2 dynagrey 120" screen
> Samsung UE65JU7005 UHDTV
> 
> Front=Klipsch RF-82 mk1
> Wide= Dynavoice Challenger M65 V3
> Center=Klipsch RC-64 mk2
> Surr= Klipsch RS52
> WideSur1/Sur2=Klipsch RS42
> Surrback= KEF3005SE
> Height speakers= 10x KEF3005SE
> Nearfield mid-bass= Behringer B1200D
> LFE= SVS PB12-Plus/2
> ULF= PSA S3000i +4x Crowson Shadow8 motion actuators
> MiniDSP 2X4 balanced
> 
> All controlled by a Logitech Harmony Ultimate with the hub+4 extenders.
> 
> So my earlier setup was a Denon 7200/5200 combo, to get 7.1.4 + Wides + 8 channels of height speakers, for a 9.1.8 setup, explained further down on page(behing the spoiler), but i recently got a 6200 to gain HDMI 2.0 and DTS:X on the second AVR. Then i discovered "Special Wides" descrided in post 67 in this thread. Since i now had 3 Atmos AVR's, this gave me the opportunity to gain both 2 set of wides, AND keep my 8 channels of heights, for a grand total of 13.1.8 in native Atmos and 9.1.8 on DTS:X.
> 
> In daily TV use, i have just the 7200 playing DSU in a 7.1.4 setup, but it has all 14 speakers connected, for a 7.1.4 Atmos/DTS:X or 10.1 Auro 3D setup.
> 
> So in native Atmos, setup is as follows:
> 7200 switched to 9.1.2 for fronts @ 25 degrees, "Pure Wides" @ 50 degrees, "Pure Surrounds @ 85 degrees and Surround backs @150 degrees. Playing only 9.1.0(note 1)(note5).
> 
> 
> 
> 6200 setup as 5.1.4+Wides(note2) for Wides/Sur1 @ 70 degrees, Sur2/Rears @110 degrees and Top Front+ Top Rear. Playing Wides, Sur2, and Tops(note4).
> 
> 
> 
> 5200 setup as 5.1.4 for Front Height and Rear Height. Playing 0.0.4
> (note 1)(note 2)(note3).
> 
> 
> 
> So basically the 7200 plays 9.1.0, while the 5200 plays 0.0.4(heights).
> And 6200 plays 5.0.4(Wide/Sur1+Sur2/Rear+Tops).
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see in the little channel indicators in front display, the 7200(to the left) plays SB and WIDES, the 6200(bottom right) plays wides but no SB's and the 5200 (top right) plays no wides and no SB's.
> As before, they are linked together via HDMI ZONE2 daisy-chained to the next AVR.
> 
> I only need on/off and main volume changes on the 6200/5200, so one original remote(and Harmony ultimate) handles that very well.
> 
> Note 1: both the 7200 and 5200 front and rear heights pre-out goes to the main and zone2 outputs of the Yama, so i just use the remote to switch the heights currently beeing used between the 7200 and 5200. So when the 7200 is in 9.1.2 mode, i let the 5200 power the heights.
> 
> Note 2: both the 6200 and 5200 wides pre-out goes to zone3 on the Yama, so i can choose wich one powers the Wide/sur1 speakers. This way i can use Neo:X wides from the 5200 in DSU(wich do not use wides).
> 
> Note 3: in Auro 3D, the 7200 powers the full 10.1 possible. But i can copy the 5200 surrounds(in Auro mode) to the surround back speakers(silent in Auro 10.1) for Auro "12.1" This way i get more "rear fill" than with just the 7200 surrounds @85 degrees. This is done with a dual source speaker switch. I can also power the Surround Heights with the 5200 if i change amp assign to FH+SH, for Auro "14.1".
> 
> Note 4: i have a "Center Height" speaker above the screen. This is connected to the center output of the 6200, and works as a "dialog lift", and also helps pannings between the front heights.
> 
> Note 5: the 7200 powers a VOG(sub2 pre-out) used in Auro 3D. In other formats, i can matrix a VOG using PL2 in the Yama extracted from the rear heights.
> 
> 
> After all this was connected, all 3 AVR's got a full Pro calibration. This took a while...
> 
> 
> 
> I got a third !?! Kef3005SE 5.1 speaker kit for this upgrade. I switched out the surround backs from Klipsch to Kef, and the rear heights from white to black Kef's.
> 
> 
> 
> And got rid of the bookshelfs used as Surround Heights for white Kef's.
> See the Kef sub on top of the Bluray rack? I now have bass-managment on the rear heights
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Older setup behind spoiler, no longer used. Too complicated
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 7200 Audyssed with 7.1.4 FH+RH+wides+VOG. 14 speakers.
> 5200 Audyssed with 7.1.4 TF+TR+wides. 13 speakers.
> 
> *In native Atmos*, my 7200 is playing 7.1.4, no SB+FW.
> 
> My 5200 is playing TF+TR.
> However: since the 7200 has deactivated SB's in this case, and they then are downmixed into the surrounds, I switch the surrounds and surround-backs over to the 5200, via my old AVR(Yama 3067 set up as a multisource(all three zones) active speaker switch).
> 
> So the 5200 also plays surrounds and SB's.
> 
> ="TRUE" 9.1.8
> 
> *When playing native DTS:X* (wich is limited to 7.1.4 anyway) from the 7200, i can play wides from the 5200 in Neo:X mode(matrixed from fronts and surrounds in both cases anyway).
> 
> *And then when playing native Auro 3D*, the 7200 plays 10.1, and if the track is 13.1, the 5200 can fill in with surround backs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Setup. Ok, so a little more in detail how it all is connected.*
> 
> The two AVR's are simply connected with a HDMI cable from the 7200 zone2 HDMI OUT, to AV1 input on the 5200. This output is a copy of the input, untouched, unprocessed, full sound and picture.
> 
> From the 7200 the speakers are:
> 
> Front LR= 7200.
> 
> Center=7200.
> 
> Surrounds= goes trough a dual source-dual output speaker switch.
> Input A is from the 7200 surround speakers
> Input B is from the 5200 surround speakers
> Output 1 goes to surround speakers 1 at 85 degrees
> Output 2 goes to surround speakers 2 at 110 degrees
> So i can choose wich surround should play, even both sets from on AVR. Or one from each. Like when i deactivate the 7200 SB's to gain the wides, i can let the 5200 play surround1 and SB's, and then let the 7200 play the surround2.
> 
> Surround back= Both 7200 and 5200 surround back pre-outs goes to Yama AVR zone2 input audio1 and audio2. So i can choose wich plays the SB's. I also have a input from 5200 surrounds here, so i can copy the surrounds to surround back, eg in Auro.
> 
> Front wides= goes trough a second dual source-dual output speaker switch.
> Input A is from the 7200 front wide speakers.
> Input B is from the 5200 front wide speakers.
> So either the 7200 or the 5200 can power the wides.
> 
> Front height= 7200.
> 
> Rear height= 7200 pre-out goes to Yama AVR main zone input AV1
> I can choose stereo(2speakers) or PL2 matrixing to the center channel, VOG(3speakers).
> Rear height is also connected via a Y-connector to the Yama multi ch front input.
> 
> Top surround(Auro 3D)= 7200 sub2 pre-out goes to Yama multi ch input, center channel.
> 
> So by switching the Yama from AV1 input(Atmos/DTS:X) to multi ch input (Auro 3D) i get correct signal to rear height and top surround).
> 
> From the 5200 the speakers are:
> 
> Front LR= connected to 7200 multi ch inputs, fronts. When calibrating or playing from 5200, the 7200 is switched to multi ch.
> 
> Center= 5200 to a center height.
> 
> Surrounds= see above dual source speaker switch.
> 
> Surround back= see above Yama zone2.
> 
> Front wides= see above second dual source speaker switch.
> 
> Top fronts= 5200.
> 
> Top rears= 5200 pre-out goes to Yama AVR Zone 3.
> 
> Surround height(Auro 3D)= 5200 pre-out is also connected via a Y-connector to Yama AVR main zone multi ch input, surround channels.
> 
> So on the Yama, if i turn of zone3(top rear) and switch to multi ch, the 5200 height2 signal is directed to the surround heights(Auro 3D).
> 
> 
> 
> I have a lot of flexibility with this setup, but it is not advisable to leave the remote with grandma
> 
> Some pics of the recently redone living room.


Just reading about your tedious setup gave me the willies and I enjoy tinkering with electronics. This was truly a labor of love for you. How's the sound? Is it cohesive?


----------



## john barlow

Nalleh said:


> 13.1.8 Franken-SWAtmos is up and running
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, the two bottom AVR's have wides active(the little channel indicator to the right in front display: pure wides and wides/sur1.
> 
> And it is working as intended. More details is coming.


Stacking electronics components is a bit risky and detrimental to the health of your components, plus, may have a negative effect on your noise floor. FYI only. otherwise, very impressive undertaking by you.


----------



## Nalleh

john barlow said:


> Just reading about your tedious setup gave me the willies and I enjoy tinkering with electronics. This was truly a labor of love for you. How's the sound? Is it cohesive?


Thanks 
Yes, we all know that a 'normal' full 7.1.4 Atmos setup sounds awsome, and to be honest: it is enough !
But i had the opportunity and econmy to try these things out, and like to explore, so i did it.
I can play the normal 7.1.4 and then fill out with the rest and thereby compare the 'expanded' setup to the normal, instantly.
And yes it sounds cohesive, only bigger, taller, wider.



john barlow said:


> Stacking electronics components is a bit risky and detrimental to the health of your components, plus, may have a negative effect on your noise floor. FYI only. otherwise, very impressive undertaking by you.


No worries, i have that covered. I have a DIY cooling solution for all of them.
Each AVR has a digital thermostat, temp sensor and fan, so i can adjust when the fan needs to start.

Like these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-50-11...mart-Sensor-/311685956088?hash=item4891ee41f8


So the temp never go above 100F/38C.


----------



## Mastiff

Nalleh, I have a question: Do you think that setup is possible to recreate with Yamaha? I now have a 3067 (like your old ap - great thing, but no X or Atmos, of couse) running an 11.2 system (actually 14.4, with dual speakers on front and center, and dual subs on the two separate channels - two 15" and two 12") in my cabin. I have set up four JBL ceiling speakers ready for Atmos use with speaker boxes built into the ceiling, and I have built boxes for another two, so I can run 6 Atmos/X/whatever speakers when that becomes an option.



I like the sound of the Yamaha setup with front and rear presence, but I would like to get in on the X and Atmos stuff too. So I'm thinking about using one amp to run most of the setup and only let the final amp run the Atmos speakers and a second (and perhaps third) zone, by setting most of the speakers to "external amp". I'm assuimg that won't work with the 3067, both because of the stuff you mention earlier in the thread, about Atmos being sendt from the surrounds and presence/heigth speakers, and because I suspect the difference between the chip on the 3067 and newer models is too great, so I will have sync problems. Would you say that's correct?


If so, I can afford (just bought a house and a *load of furniture and stuff to fill it up with) one 3070, which I think I'll be able to get for around 20 000 NOK some time this winter, and one of the earlier models, maybe a 2050, or something, for about half. Two 3070 is probably just above the very seriuos "divorce lawyer look" in my wife's eyes, so that is probably not possible.  Do you think that would work, or do I need to get two of the same generation of receivers because of the chips? I see that the 3070 har new ESS ES9026PRO DA-converter chips, so maybe that would mess up the timing too?


Hope you can give me a few pointers with the experience you've picked up since I first discussed going dual receiver with you (I think that was you) a few years ago, either here or in the Norwegian AV-Forum. 


Oh, btw, you seem to have a Photobucket-problem.


----------



## Nalleh

Mastiff said:


> Nalleh, I have a question: Do you think that setup is possible to recreate with Yamaha? I now have a 3067 (like your old ap - great thing, but no X or Atmos, of couse) running an 11.2 system (actually 14.4, with dual speakers on front and center, and dual subs on the two separate channels - two 15" and two 12") in my cabin. I have set up four JBL ceiling speakers ready for Atmos use with speaker boxes built into the ceiling, and I have built boxes for another two, so I can run 6 Atmos/X/whatever speakers when that becomes an option.
> 
> I like the sound of the Yamaha setup with front and rear presence, but I would like to get in on the X and Atmos stuff too. So I'm thinking about using one amp to run most of the setup and only let the final amp run the Atmos speakers and a second (and perhaps third) zone, by setting most of the speakers to "external amp". I'm assuimg that won't work with the 3067, both because of the stuff you mention earlier in the thread, about Atmos being sendt from the surrounds and presence/heigth speakers, and because I suspect the difference between the chip on the 3067 and newer models is too great, so I will have sync problems. Would you say that's correct?
> 
> 
> If so, I can afford (just bought a house and a *load of furniture and stuff to fill it up with) one 3070, which I think I'll be able to get for around 20 000 NOK some time this winter, and one of the earlier models, maybe a 2050, or something, for about half. Two 3070 is probably just above the very seriuos "divorce lawyer look" in my wife's eyes, so that is probably not possible.  Do you think that would work, or do I need to get two of the same generation of receivers because of the chips? I see that the 3070 har new ESS ES9026PRO DA-converter chips, so maybe that would mess up the timing too?
> 
> 
> Hope you can give me a few pointers with the experience you've picked up since I first discussed going dual receiver with you (I think that was you) a few years ago, either here or in the Norwegian AV-Forum.
> 
> 
> Oh, btw, you seem to have a Photobucket-problem.


Yes, as i have said before, mixing different AVR's is problematic, if different mfr's or Atmos/Non-Atmos, and can get lip-sync issues.

However a dual 3070 or a 3070/2050 could work, but the Yama's are limited in how they can expand, as they do not have wides. There is no point mixing presence(3067) with Atmos heights(3070), as that will just blur the sound, so in the end there is not much you can expand on, exept maybe two sets of overhead speaker: height and tops.
But since Yama's only have 9 amps, you can of course use the 3067 as a ext. amp to get 11 channels.

And yes, i have a Photobucket problem, the whole WORLD has a Photobucket problem, as they now wants $399 A YEAR!!! 
That a no-go for me. I am on vacation at the moment, but will look into fixing the problem as i get back.


----------



## Mastiff

Thanks! I have now spent a week days researching and thinking. It seems that I actually need one of the 30x0 receivers because the 20x0 does not even have the ability to run 11.2. So maybe I should rather do this with a bit of automation (which I often do...). I can have a macro that uses relays to switch speaker wires between front/rear presence and the four Atmos ceiling speakers, and then (porbably, when I find the right command) use the TCPIP communication to send a command to the receiver that changes from using presence to using ceiling speakers when I am going to watch a movie with Amos or DTS-X Sound. That way I can use only one new receiver and just keep using the old RX-V3900 that I now use to power the presence speakers. The 3067 I'm going to use in the house I recently bought, for running three powered zones. 


Edit: Or is there some logical flaw here that I do not see myself? I will open a thread in the receiver forum to see if I whould go 3060 or 3070, with the price difference of 6000 NOK.


----------



## coolrda

Finally made it. Phenomenal room. Here's hoping you get your pics back up so I can see more of it. I'm going through the process of rebuilding some of my posts. No fun. This room is on my read list.


----------



## Nalleh

coolrda said:


> Finally made it. Phenomenal room. Here's hoping you get your pics back up so I can see more of it. I'm going through the process of rebuilding some of my posts. No fun. This room is on my read list.


Thanks 

Yeah, tell me about it, Photobucket really ruined pretty much all of the internet. There are so many forums and threads that are without pics now, it is unbelivable.

Speaking of threads: do you have a thread about your HT? Cause that would be on my list  I found a couple speaker build thread of yours, but that's it.


----------



## coolrda

Nalleh said:


> Thanks
> 
> Yeah, tell me about it, Photobucket really ruined pretty much all of the internet. There are so many forums and threads that are without pics now, it is unbelivable.
> 
> Speaking of threads: do you have a thread about your HT? Cause that would be on my list  I found a couple speaker build thread of yours, but that's it.


I don't have a thread yet. I've seriously tried then get sidetracked by a build or test or simply have moved on from that room before I can actually put a thread together. I'm hoping this room is it for me for a long while. I don't plan on moving and I don't plan on building another room. So hopefully I can finally get one started. In the coming months. I've switched to IMGUR for the pics and like it better than Photobucket.


----------



## Nalleh

coolrda said:


> I don't have a thread yet. I've seriously tried then get sidetracked by a build or test or simply have moved on from that room before I can actually put a thread together. I'm hoping this room is it for me for a long while. I don't plan on moving and I don't plan on building another room. So hopefully I can finally get one started. In the coming months. I've switched to IMGUR for the pics and like it better than Photobucket.


I'll be waiting 

Thanks for the tip about Imgur, i signed up. They must have gotten a ton of new customers lately, LOOL.

SO I HAVE REPAIRED ALL PHOTOS IN THE THREAD NOW 

Enjoy


----------



## Marc Alexander

Nalleh said:


> I'll be waiting
> 
> Thanks for the tip about Imgur, i signed up. They must have gotten a ton of new customers lately, LOOL.
> 
> SO I HAVE REPAIRED ALL PHOTOS IN THE THREAD NOW
> 
> Enjoy


Awesome, few go through the trouble of updating. Great job!


----------



## Nalleh

Thanks 

And BTW i have started a DIY Sonosub project 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...y-si-ht18d2-sealed-dual-opposed-sonosubs.html


----------



## Justin Walker

Lots of great material here. I am ready to jump in. I currently have a 7.4.4 set up I want to kick it up to 7.4.6 but I would not mind being able to end up with 9.4.6. Before I just start buying 4 extra speakers and a extra receiver let me make sure I am thinking right..
Right now I have a yamaha 2040 (9ch 11chprocessing) I have taken the pre out and ran it to a cheaper sony AVR to power the 10th and 11th channel. What it sounds like is if I get a nicer second receiver with atmos I can connect my preouts to the new reciever and that one will run 4 of the 6 atmos speakers?


----------



## Nalleh

Justin Walker said:


> Lots of great material here. I am ready to jump in. I currently have a 7.4.4 set up I want to kick it up to 7.4.6 but I would not mind being able to end up with 9.4.6. Before I just start buying 4 extra speakers and a extra receiver let me make sure I am thinking right..
> Right now I have a yamaha 2040 (9ch 11chprocessing) I have taken the pre out and ran it to a cheaper sony AVR to power the 10th and 11th channel. What it sounds like is if I get a nicer second receiver with atmos I can connect my preouts to the new reciever and that one will run 4 of the 6 atmos speakers?


If you want 6 heights, your best bet is ScAtmos, and use two older PLII AVR’s to extend from 4 to 6 heights.

You can’t use a native Atmos height pre-out to another Atmos AVR to get more native Atmos channels. Native Atmos can only be via HDMI.

That is not how i do it to extend. I use multiple Atmos AVR’s in parallell, and each has different speaker setups.

And Yamaha doesn’t have wides, so 7 base level speakers only.


----------



## Justin Walker

Nalleh said:


> If you want 6 heights, your best bet is ScAtmos, and use two older PLII AVR’s to extend from 4 to 6 heights.
> 
> You can’t use a native Atmos height pre-out to another Atmos AVR to get more native Atmos channels. Native Atmos can only be via HDMI.
> 
> That is not how i do it to extend. I use multiple Atmos AVR’s in parallell, and each has different speaker setups.
> 
> And Yamaha doesn’t have wides, so 7 base level speakers only.


Hmmm, Well dang. I can get another cheap AVR pretty easy. Now I am just so curious what I am missing by not having the other speakers


----------



## Justin Walker

Nalleh said:


> If you want 6 heights, your best bet is ScAtmos, and use two older PLII AVR’s to extend from 4 to 6 heights.
> 
> You can’t use a native Atmos height pre-out to another Atmos AVR to get more native Atmos channels. Native Atmos can only be via HDMI.
> 
> That is not how i do it to extend. I use multiple Atmos AVR’s in parallell, and each has different speaker setups.
> 
> And Yamaha doesn’t have wides, so 7 base level speakers only.


I was not going to ask because I did not want to bug you, but how are you running them in parallel? Im looking at the back of a 7200 like yours now trying to see how you would repeat that they way you did? Using a different Zone?


----------



## Nalleh

Justin Walker said:


> I was not going to ask because I did not want to bug you, but how are you running them in parallel? Im looking at the back of a 7200 like yours now trying to see how you would repeat that they way you did? *Using a different Zone*?


Correct, i use the HDMI zone2out to the next AVR. Denon’s HDMI zone2out sends a untouched full picture AND full sound trough to zone 2. In this regard it actually functions as a HDMI switch.


Not all AVR’s does this.

EDIT: there is another way of getting parallell HDMI signal to 2 AVR’s: most OPPO bluray players have dual HDMI outs. That way you can send HDMI1 to the first AVR, and HDMI2 to the second AVR.


----------



## Justin Walker

Nalleh said:


> Correct, i use the HDMI zone2out to the next AVR. Denon’s HDMI zone2out sends a untouched full picture AND full sound trough to zone 2. In this regard it actually functions as a HDMI switch.
> 
> 
> Not all AVR’s does this.
> 
> EDIT: there is another way of getting parallell HDMI signal to 2 AVR’s: most OPPO bluray players have dual HDMI outs. That way you can send HDMI1 to the first AVR, and HDMI2 to the second AVR.


Thank you for that. Guess I need to rethink my setup.


----------



## Nalleh

Justin Walker said:


> Thank you for that. Guess I need to rethink my setup.


No worries. 

This isn’t easy, otherwise everybody would do it 

Then again, if you already have 7.4.4 you should be happy with that. It is miles better than the entry level 5.1.2


----------



## Nalleh

A while a go i made a new shelf for my blurays, as the old one was to big and was also getng full.

So i got the idea for this from a old IKEA BD rack, and this is what i started with:










I took it completely apart, and built it up again as i wanted it.










This is of the «minimalistic» design and is shallower than a BD cover.










I modified some more for my surround speakers.










And after some paint, it was ready to use.










It holds over 800 BD’s and takes up no space and works great 










And it cost like $30 and some paint and screws


----------



## Mashie Saldana

Very nice. I like the super slim style.


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> Very nice. I like the super slim style.


Slim indeed 

The IKEA shelf i was inspired by was called «Lerberg», if anyone wanna google it.

Here is a pic of the old «Billy» bookshelf also from IKEA.











I like the new one much better


----------



## Nalleh

A little embarassing, but i was checking out room sim in REW, and after putting in my room dimensions in meters, i tried changing to feets, and my room volume came up at ~1800 ft3! NOT 3000 as i wote in first post, LOOL. Have no idea how that conversion error got in there, but feet and inches is not my native language, so i put the blame there .

Fixed that error in first post.


----------



## Justin Walker

So I might have just ordered a X7200wa.... I think this winter I will get some time and start re-doing some things in my set up. I dont know if I will end up with 3 recievers but I will probably pick up a x5300/x5400 next. I was also following your DIY sub build. That turned out so nice! You have a great set up and I love the wood look on those tubes. Were you ever able to find a copy of the 2016 Atmos Demo? I think you were looking for one awhile back.


----------



## Nalleh

Justin Walker said:


> So I might have just ordered a X7200wa.... I think this winter I will get some time and start re-doing some things in my set up. I dont know if I will end up with 3 recievers but I will probably pick up a x5300/x5400 next. I was also following your DIY sub build. That turned out so nice! You have a great set up and I love the wood look on those tubes. Were you ever able to find a copy of the 2016 Atmos Demo? I think you were looking for one awhile back.


Thanks 

Yes, the 7200wa is still one of the best AVR’s on the marked, and it supports wides  For the second AVR you don’t need the newest ones, but thats up to you.

Yes i found the demo disc on ebay, a cheap one from thailand, bu it works for me.
Besides i also downloaded the disc from the thread on this forum, so i am covered


----------



## Justin Walker

Nalleh said:


> Thanks
> 
> Yes, the 7200wa is still one of the best AVR’s on the marked, and it supports wides  For the second AVR you don’t need the newest ones, but thats up to you.
> 
> Yes i found the demo disc on ebay, a cheap one from thailand, bu it works for me.
> Besides i also downloaded the disc from the thread on this forum, so i am covered


 OK I was just making sure I was going to try and get you a copy for helping me out so much. Thanks again


----------



## brazensol

For your Dolby 13.1.8 are those 8 Atmos channels all discrete? If so then I am confused because if I understand correctly you have to use PLII to do more than 4 overhead channels.


----------



## Nalleh

brazensol said:


> For your Dolby 13.1.8 are those 8 Atmos channels all discrete? If so then I am confused because if I understand correctly you have to use PLII to do more than 4 overhead channels.


Technically they are discrete, the problem is neither know of each other, but there are differences between heights and tops, but this is not the same as 8 overheads with a Trinnov, for example.

However, in my testing heights give a wide eleveted circle of sound, while tops give a narrow circle above you, so together these are more distinct wide from above, if you understand.
Also the two set of overheads help plant pannings front to rear better. This is not the same as just connecting 8 speakers to 4 outputs(copying), as all 8 overheads here is correctly calibrated seperately, and Audyssey’ed.

I have never said this is the correct way to do it, i tested it and liked it, so i kept it 

2 x PLII AVR’s is one way to get past 4 heights, this is another.


----------



## brazensol

I'm waiting and hoping the new crop of receiver's in early 2018 will include 6 overheads. If not then I think something more along what you and others have done is the route I'll also take.


----------



## Nalleh

Btw, the new subs is up and running


----------



## Nalleh

And i am starting to pile up on Inukes, so today i did a quick «rack» for two of them. Nothing fancy, used some 2x4’s i had laying around. Not the normal rack, but wanted it as slim as possible.










It took about 5 minutes to make, and put the amps out of the way, but still easy to reach.










Never mind the wires and mess, just got it finished and in place  I will put some paint on it later on 

I also did the fan mod on the second amp, so wisper quiet now.


----------



## ioanni

That's a great set up you have there @Nalleh! I have to admit that after going the Scatmos route and enjoying it for a few months, the bug of improving my home cinema experience bit me again and makes me think more and more going the FrankenAtmos/SWAtmos road. With just one additional receiver for now that could still do SCAtmos for 6 speakers instead of Heights plus Tops. 

Apart from the setup and the calibration I was wondering how did you choose which speakers go to which place? Obviously the best speakers should be in the L/R position, but what about the second best? I see that you have Dynavoice Challenger M65 V3 as Wides and Klipsch RS42 as WideSur1 and Sur2. I do recall though from the Wide exploitation forum that the WideSur1 were also called as "Sissy" Wides (lol) because they "talk" all the time, in contrast to the pure Wides that are used every now and then. Would it make sense to have the second best loudspeaker in that position then? Or is there another speaker position e.g. Sur2 or Surround that operates so much and covers such an area that the second best speaker should be there, all space concerns aside?

The reason I ask is that I have a 7.1.6 setup based on a Marantz SR7011 and the Tannoy Revolution XT series speakers, so I have the XT6f pair for L/R, the XTC for C, I have XT minis as front and rear heights, and XT6 as rear surrounds at the moment. BW 601s are my side surrounds. For SWAtmos I plan to have the XT minis brought at the ground layer, and install Focal Domes for Heights. I am not sure though where to place the XT6 which are my second best speakers and I feel they are a bit underutilized as rear surrounds, especially since Auro3D does not use them. Any idea which position would make the most of them based on your utilization so far?


----------



## Nalleh

Thanks, @ioanni.

Well, the speaker priority has kind of developed as i upgraded, and i have tried to place them with the following thoughts.

First priority in my mind is LCR, and as such i have placed the biggest and best of my speaker at those positions, the Klipsch RF82 and RC64.

After that i feel the side surrounds come next, and even though the M65 are bigger floorstanders, i went with the Klipsch RS52’s, since they are the same family as my LCR’s, and the M65 «fits» better as wides, because they are floorstanders.

I earlier had one set of RS42 for my rear surrounds, but since the whole «special wides» came into play, i swapped them for KEF 3005’s, as i have the rear surround just 3 feet behind me, i felt that they would be enough.

That left me with 3 pairs of side surround: Sur/wide1, pure side surrounds, and Sur2 that i felt benefitted most from being the same, all Klipsch RS family. And all heights are the same, KEF eggs, and were bought for that purpose.

If i did it all from scratch today, i think i would have done it the same, 3 big, good speakers LCR, and then bought ALL the rest the same type, like for example SVS Prime Satellites.

So maybe SVS Prime Towers(maybe as pure wides too) and Center as LCR, Bookshelfs as all ear level surrounds, and either that, Satellites or Elevations as heights.

I think that would sound awsome 

(I was actually THIS close to buying a few pairs of those Prime Bookshelfs a couple of weeks ago, when a store nearby had them on 50% off sale !!)


----------



## stikle

Hey Nallah-

I've checked out your build for quite some time, but never thought I'd have the desire to try something like that. My system currently sounds excellent to my ears.

However, now I'm buying a new house and moving. The basement has two bedrooms. I'm going to move the wall between them way back and have a dedicated theater room and a smaller dedicated room for accessing the rear of the equipment rack as well as housing my server and network gear.

Since I have enough speakers for *9*.3.4, I'm actually considering adding another AVR for expansion since I love the way the soundstage opens up further with them engaged.

Initially it looks like the AVR-S730H is the cheapest model that will do the job as the secondary AVR.

I should be able to take one of the HDMI outputs from my X6200 to the main input of the S730 and be good to go, right?

Here's my general initial plan:



















Granted, I've only done about 30 minutes worth of looking/research, but it seems fairly straightforward.

Any thoughts?

BTW- I've got all SVS Primes for my front stage and they sound most excellent. I have no doubt the bookshelves would be great as well. If I had to replace all of my speakers at this point, I'd have zero hesitation going with all SVS Primes.

Thanks!


----------



## Nalleh

^^^Hi, @stikle.
Nice to hear you are ready to expand  I love your Mirage setup, and awsome to hear about your new house and HT. Exiting 

Now, to your question. Sure the little S730 will «work», as in it will make sound the way you suggest it connected. But here the thing: Atmos has two layers, ear level and heights. If you have a 5.1 setup, both those layers are mixed into the ear level. If you have one set of heights(or more), ALL height sound will be extracted from the ear level, and put into whatever height speaker you are using. You see where i am going with this?

Ok, the S730 is a 7.1 AVR that can use either a 7.1 setup(ear level only), or a 5.1.2 Atmos setup(5.1. ear level with one set of heights). So if you want that AVR to provide the surround back, you will need the 7.1 setup, which means the heights sound will NOT be extracted fom those surround backs. And then the heights sounds will come from both your top rears(AVR6200), AND your surround backs(AVR S730).

Not only that, but your 6200 in a 5.1.4+wids setup will have the surround back channels mixed into the side surrounds, so then both your 6200 AND your S730 will be eminating the surround back channel sounds. Are you following me? A lot of duplicating channels/sounds.

The proper way to exand to 9.1.4 is you use your 6200 for the 9 ear level channels, or 9.1.0, and then use a 9 channel minimum Atmos second AVR, one that can to two set of overhead, or 5.1.4, and then have that AVR play the 0.0.4 channels, for a total of 9.1.4.
This will actually be a correct Atmos 9.1.4.

You can use any 2015(since you also want DTS:X) D&M 5.1.4 capable AVR for this, and a used one is just as good, so it doesn’t have to be any more expensive. Actually this way you will not need any ext amp.

PS: however, Marc suggested in another thread that you could use, in this case, your 6200 in a 5.1.4+wides setup, and then use any PL2 capable AVR to extract a center «surround back» from your side surrounds. This would be «correct» in that those side surrounds of yours will have the height sound extracted, and therefore have the ear level only from your new surround back(could even be connected to two speakers in the rear, even if it is a single mono channel).



http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...r-set-up-immersive-audio-37.html#post54953394


This would then be a 8.1.4 setup.


----------



## stikle

Nalleh said:


> The proper way to exand to 9.1.4 is you use your 6200 for the 9 ear level channels, or 9.1.0, and then use a 9 channel minimum Atmos second AVR, one that can to two set of overhead, or 5.1.4, and then have that AVR play the 0.0.4 channels, for a total of 9.1.4.
> 
> This will actually be a correct Atmos 9.1.4.



Ahhh....that all makes sense. Duplicating sound is not end result I'm looking for. ^^ this is the information that cleared up my misunderstanding and what I want. Thank you!

That also means I need to re-evaluate my plan for now. Even 2015 9 channel models are not especially cheap and not in the budget right now. I'll wire for wides anyway regardless.


----------



## Nalleh

You’re welcome.

Well, no its not easy getting this right, but it is doable. Just watch for good prices on outgoing models, like 4200, 4300, 6200 or 6300. Also Marantz models.

Here is a used one, for example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-AVR-...366304?hash=item212d537a60:g:OHMAAOSw~4NZqbPf


2 of my three AVR’s is bought used.


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## stikle

I was actually looking at that one already


----------



## Mashie Saldana

My 9ch AVR that drive the heights is a factory referbished Marantz SR6010 that I got for half price.


----------



## Nalleh

stikle said:


> I was actually looking at that one already





Mashie Saldana said:


> My 9ch AVR that drive the heights is a factory referbished Marantz SR6010 that I got for half price.


 @stikle, you should check out @Mashie Saldana thread(link in his sig), as he has done that 9.1.4 expansion we are talking about here. Very nicely done. He has gone further by also doing ScAtmos to get to 9.1.6, but that is not important here.

I also do the same 9.1.4 xpansion in my current setup, but i too complicate things further with a third AVR, so maybe his setup is easier to understand.


----------



## stikle

I went ahead and grabbed that 4200. It'll be here Tuesday-ish and I can actually start playing with the setup in my current theater since the wides are actually wired now.


----------



## Nalleh

stikle said:


> I went ahead and grabbed that 4200. It'll be here Tuesday-ish and I can actually start playing with the setup in my current theater since the wides are actually wired now.


Nice 

Let us know how it goes  Maybe make a thread.


----------



## ioanni

Nalleh said:


> Nice
> 
> Let us know how it goes  Maybe make a thread.


Nalleh I was also wondering about the way you calibrated your whole ecosystem of speakers. You mention that you did a Pro Calibration, which took some time, was it a specific Software you are using? 

I have seen lots of good opinions about Dirac and how people use one or more minidsp-ddrc88s with 8 inputs/outputs after their receiver in order to equalize without purchasing very expensive Receivers, like an Emotiva. In the relevant forums, Dirac seems mind-blowing compared to Audyssey and the next best thing behind Trinnov's software. Since you use three Denons is this how you use your MiniDSP 2X4 or it is for only for the Subwoofers?

With your system that has so many speakers I guess you would need more than three minidsp-ddrc88s to achieve Dirac equalization for all speakers, which might make the cost increase quite a bit, but perhaps hiring a professional calibrator or using specialised Software would have the same cost?

Did you also do any room sound treatments? Perhaps the franken-atmos has still more room for improvement?


----------



## Nalleh

ioanni said:


> Nalleh I was also wondering about the way you calibrated your whole ecosystem of speakers. You mention that you did a Pro Calibration, which took some time, was it a specific Software you are using?
> 
> I have seen lots of good opinions about Dirac and how people use one or more minidsp-ddrc88s with 8 inputs/outputs after their receiver in order to equalize without purchasing very expensive Receivers, like an Emotiva. In the relevant forums, Dirac seems mind-blowing compared to Audyssey and the next best thing behind Trinnov's software. Since you use three Denons is this how you use your MiniDSP 2X4 or it is for only for the Subwoofers?
> 
> With your system that has so many speakers I guess you would need more than three minidsp-ddrc88s to achieve Dirac equalization for all speakers, which might make the cost increase quite a bit, but perhaps hiring a professional calibrator or using specialised Software would have the same cost?
> 
> Did you also do any room sound treatments? Perhaps the franken-atmos has still more room for improvement?



The pro calibration is done using the installer version of Audyssey called MultEQ Pro. For example:

http://www.shop.perfecthometheater.com/Audyssey-MultEQ-Pro-Calibration-Kit-Audyssey-Kit.htm

The Minidsp2x4 is, as the name implies, only 2 channel in and 4 out, so it is used for my subs only.

The ddrc88 goes between the AVR/AVP and your amps, so in my case i need a a lot of ddrc88’s AND a lot of amps, and would be VERY expensive, So it is a no go.

I do not have a lot of sound treatments, but the movie posters you see on my wall are acoustic panels, and i have thick carpets on the floor, that pretty much it. So yes, there is probably some improvements possible in that area.


----------



## Nalleh

I am going to do a little work on the setup this weekend. My DTS:X setup is not optimalt, as i use my AVR nr 2 to expand from 7.1.4 to 9.1.8. This means that the wides and sur2 is from AVR2. I will rather use AVR1 for 9.1.0, same as i do in Atmos, and the AVR2 for 0.0.4, and forgo the extra 4 heights, for a more correct 9.1.4 DTS:X. This means that to avoid bleeding from heights to ear level, i need to also use Surround backs from AVR2. I am going to try to send surround back pre-outs from both AVR1 and AVR2 to a audio input on AVR1 !!and use Zone2 to power surround backs. If this works, i can choose which one sends the surround back signal.


And i want to try the PSA S3000i as nearfield sub behind the seats, to see if it can give more TR.
Also i need to do a new Audyssey, as i have not done that since the new sonosubs.

And for use with DSU, which doesn’t use wides, i am going to try (yet another one of) Maikel’s idea :



maikeldepotter said:


> Probably the simplest way of using Wides with formats (and up-mixers) that do not use them, is to copy the front speaker on the same side, and add a delay of 3-5 ms. In that way the Wides mimic the beneficial lateral reflections that are know to increase envelopment, but it allows more control (SPL, delay, eq'ing). An added benefit is that the fronts can be further toed in (e.g. 45 degrees) to allow cross-firing (time-intensity trading) without losing L/R front envelopment.


----------



## stikle

Nalleh said:


> Nice



I thought so! 

I hope I'm getting a handle on this now...here's how I'm thinking this will end up:











Does that look in the realm of being correct to you? Now that I look at it, I might have TF & TR reversed.



Nalleh said:


> Let us know how it goes  *Maybe make a thread.*



I'll do that once I get the new house and start working on the new theater space.

Edit: I noticed that the blue line (12v trigger) is originating from the wrong place on my diagram. It should be plugged into the jack 3 positions to the left (Trigger out 1)


----------



## Marc Alexander

stikle said:


> I thought so!
> 
> I hope I'm getting a handle on this now...here's how I'm thinking this will end up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does that look in the realm of being correct to you? Now that I look at it, I might have TF & TR reversed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll do that once I get the new house and start working on the new theater space.[/quote @stikle how are you making these diagrams so easily?


----------



## Marc Alexander

Nalleh said:


> And i want to try the PSA S3000i as nearfield sub behind the seats, to see if it can give more TR.


With the S3000i, place it so one of the drivers fires directly into the MLP. Placed parallel to a chair does not give the expected TR.


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## stikle

Marc Alexander said:


> @stikle how are you making these diagrams so easily?


The smaller overhead speaker layout I did in Microsoft Visio at work.

The wiring diagram with the backs of the AVRs I did in Paint.net - a fabulous free (Donateware) image editor for Windows.

I googled the 6200/4200 rear images, stole the speaker images from @Mashie Saldana (thanks!), and drew the lines in by hand in Paint.net.


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## Mashie Saldana

stikle said:


> Does that look in the realm of being correct to you? Now that I look at it, I might have TF & TR reversed.


I wouldn't connect a subwoofer to the second AVR, it will be impossible to get that one time aligned with the other two. Remember the main AVR will handle the low frequencies for all speakers, including the "missing" heights. All you have to do is make sure you set the crossovers for the heights to the same value on both AVRs and you are set.


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## Mashie Saldana

stikle said:


> I googled the 6200/4200 rear images, stole the speaker images from @Mashie Saldana (thanks!), and drew the lines in by hand in Paint.net.


That's fine, they had fallen off a lorry on the Internet. :grin:


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## Nalleh

stikle said:


> I thought so!
> 
> I hope I'm getting a handle on this now...here's how I'm thinking this will end up:
> 
> Does that look in the realm of being correct to you? Now that I look at it, I might have TF & TR reversed.
> 
> 
> I’ll do that once I get the new house and start working on the new theater space.



Nice diagram, man. Looks perfect to me 



Marc Alexander said:


> With the S3000i, place it so one of the drivers fires directly into the MLP. Placed parallel to a chair does not give the expected TR.


Right. That’s why i wrote «try», because i have the couch near the rear wall, so i don’t have room to place it like you suggest, i have to have it drivers placed left & right compared to couch. I’ll see of it works.


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## stikle

So this happened last night...


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## Nalleh

stikle said:


> So this happened last night...


Nice 

Good to see the multi-AVR family growing


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## vn800art

Right moment for the questions? 
I have a 7.1.4 Atmos ( Auro 3D 10.1 ) setup. As you know Auro3D has a limit in that doesn't use the SB channels. 
The principal Avr is Marantz Sr7011. Drives Indiana Line Center, 4 Wharfedale 9.1 as S and SB. Fronts ( Klipsch Cornwall ) from the preouts on Marantz are driven from an old Galactron MK10 B.
From the Marantz preouts, FH, RH ( Klipsch CP-6) and Vog (a little Philips Center speaker), are driven from an old Pioneer VSX LX50 . 
I also have a spare Sony STR DA3500ES I could use.
First question is, as You have understood, how to drive SB when using Auro3D.
Second question, re Vog Channel, is I have a soundbar I could install on ceiling, instead of the little Philips speaker, but I want to use the optical output present in the Pioneer (and in the Sony, actually not in use in the principal system), to leave amplifier(s) electrically separeted from the soundbar.
The first question is the principal one, for the second one I believe it's a trial and error solution.
Thanks for Your time
Regards
Alessandro

Inviato dal mio ASUS_Z00AD utilizzando Tapatalk


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## vn800art

To add some decoders informations for the two older Avrs, I can say:
Pioneer Vsx lx50 decodes all Dolby systems, from the plain Surround, to the Dolby Digital Plus and True HD( excluding Atmos ), all Dts from plain Surround to HD MA. Also has a Thx full set of decoders for cinema reequalization, which could be added to the equation.
Sony STR DA3500Es has the same full sets for Dolby and Dts ( less Dolby digital Plus and some specific THX).
The two Avrs have full sets of preouts and 7.1 multichannel inputs and optical out SPDIF jack.
As obvious HDMI I/O is limited to older versions in this two Avrs.
Thanks for your time
Alessandro

Inviato dal mio ASUS_Z00AD utilizzando Tapatalk


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## Nalleh

vn800art said:


> Right moment for the questions?
> I have a 7.1.4 Atmos ( Auro 3D 10.1 ) setup. As you know Auro3D has a limit in that doesn't use the SB channels.
> The principal Avr is Marantz Sr7011. Drives Indiana Line Center, 4 Wharfedale 9.1 as S and SB. Fronts ( Klipsch Cornwall ) from the preouts on Marantz are driven from an old Galactron MK10 B.
> From the Marantz preouts, FH, RH ( Klipsch CP-6) and Vog (a little Philips Center speaker), are driven from an old Pioneer VSX LX50 .
> I also have a spare Sony STR DA3500ES I could use.
> First question is, as You have understood, how to drive SB when using Auro3D.
> Second question, re Vog Channel, is I have a soundbar I could install on ceiling, instead of the little Philips speaker, but I want to use the optical output present in the Pioneer (and in the Sony, actually not in use in the principal system), to leave amplifier(s) electrically separeted from the soundbar.
> The first question is the principal one, for the second one I believe it's a trial and error solution.
> Thanks for Your time
> Regards
> Alessandro
> 
> Inviato dal mio ASUS_Z00AD utilizzando Tapatalk


Well, this is in the same ballpark as Stikle’s question, about using a external non- Atmos AVR(or non Auro 3D in this case) to extend the channel count.

It will works, as in it will make sounds, but again not correctly. The external AVR wil still have the heights sounds in the SB channels, so the will be duplicated.

There is no cheat - method of expanding using non- native AVR’s. Only exeption is PLII to get ScAtmos.

However, if you want to try that method, i would advice to try playing some movie in Auro, and start with your EXT AVR SB’s on low volume, and then slowly try to increase the volume on those channels until you just hear them starting to fill in. And leave them at that. Do not have them at the same volume as the rest of the channels. And then you can always try the channel check clips on the Auro demo disc, to hear if the get duplicated.

The way i do it, and in my testing shows is the best way, is to send my side surround pre-outputs from my Denon 5200 to the surround back speakers in Auro. This is of course just a copy of the side surrounds in Auro, but the are properly calibrated for distance, EQ, etc. This way i can increase the level, as i said above, to where they just start to fill in. These will then have the height sounds extracted, so they will not mess with the height sounds.

PS: all my AVR’s are Auro 3D upgraded.


----------



## Justin Walker

I got around to swapping out some stuff this past weekend. I ended up with the x7200wa and two Sony STR-DG720 so I can run the "Scatmos" set up. Everything went together very smoothly. I ran the 9.1.6 test with the latest Atmos disc and I really did get the 6 atmos speakers working right. One odd thing is the Denon sees my front wide speakers but the Atmos disc it sent the sound to my L and R front speakers. And when I tried to calibrate with the mic the receiver would not detect my subs. I could not get past the first speaker since it was sub one. It wanted me to check the volume level. Ill mess with that some more later. Coming from a Yamaha receiver to the Denon is a bit more different than what I thought. Struggling trying to get where I need to go.
Thanks again for the help.


----------



## Nalleh

Justin Walker said:


> I got around to swapping out some stuff this past weekend. I ended up with the x7200wa and two Sony STR-DG720 so I can run the "Scatmos" set up. Everything went together very smoothly. I ran the 9.1.6 test with the latest Atmos disc and I really did get the 6 atmos speakers working right. One odd thing is the Denon sees my front wide speakers but the Atmos disc it sent the sound to my L and R front speakers. And when I tried to calibrate with the mic the receiver would not detect my subs. I could not get past the first speaker since it was sub one. It wanted me to check the volume level. Ill mess with that some more later. Coming from a Yamaha receiver to the Denon is a bit more different than what I thought. Struggling trying to get where I need to go.
> Thanks again for the help.


Yes, with that setup you can go from 7.1.4 to 7.1.6, but the wides will be silent. You need 2 Atmos AVR’s to get 9.1.4 or 9.1.6.


----------



## vn800art

Don't know the specific for the Denon, but I had the same -change-level-to-the-sub (and the level couldn't be changed either (I have only one sub). Going all the way on, the Left front couldn't be detected and the test tones went really loud. I exited the setting, did a full reset, no problems afterwards.
I was using the MultEq app to calibrate, if things matter.
Regards
Alessandro


----------



## Justin Walker

Nalleh said:


> Yes, with that setup you can go from 7.1.4 to 7.1.6, but the wides will be silent. You need 2 Atmos AVR’s to get 9.1.4 or 9.1.6.



Oh I didn't even catch that.... if I am thinking right it's because it's only able to process the 11 channels?? I was thinking the atmos speakers counted as 2 of those 11 channels when I planed it out. Could I grab another Denon receiver (non atmos) and use the front wides? If I'm going to do that I might as well add more speakers.


----------



## Justin Walker

vn800art said:


> Don't know the specific for the Denon, but I had the same -change-level-to-the-sub (and the level couldn't be changed either (I have only one sub). Going all the way on, the Left front couldn't be detected and the test tones went really loud. I exited the setting, did a full reset, no problems afterwards.
> I was using the MultEq app to calibrate, if things matter.
> Regards
> Alessandro


I forgot about the app. I'll have to look at that.


----------



## Nalleh

Justin Walker said:


> Oh I didn't even catch that.... if I am thinking right it's because it's only able to process the 11 channels?? I was thinking the atmos speakers counted as 2 of those 11 channels when I planed it out. Could I grab another Denon receiver (non atmos) and use the front wides? If I'm going to do that I might as well add more speakers.


Well, going from 7.1.4 to 9.1.4 can be done correctly using two Atmos AVR’s: one 11 channel that does 9.1.2 but only plays the ear level, or 9.1.0. And then one more minimum 9 channel doing the 4 height channels, or 0.0.4. So total they play 9.1.4 Atmos.

Then there is another method, and altough it works it is not «correct» Atmos, and that is ScAtmos, which is what you use, with two PLII AVR’s to extend from 4 to 6 heights.

The one method here has nothing to do with the other, they do seperately things. And as i said, if you want to go to 9.1.6, you need 4 AVR’s. Two Atmos ones to go to 9.1.4 and two more PLII AVR’s to got to 9.1.6.

Take a look at Mashie’s thread, he has done what you are talking about:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...633-tower-cinema-budget-9-1-6-12x12-room.html


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## Justin Walker

Nalleh said:


> Well, going from 7.1.4 to 9.1.4 can be done correctly using two Atmos AVR’s: one 11 channel that does 9.1.2 but only plays the ear level, or 9.1.0. And then one more minimum 9 channel doing the 4 height channels, or 0.0.4. So total they play 9.1.4 Atmos.
> 
> Then there is another method, and altough it works it is not «correct» Atmos, and that is ScAtmos, which is what you use, with two PLII AVR’s to extend from 4 to 6 heights.
> 
> The one method here has nothing to do with the other, they do seperately things. And as i said, if you want to go to 9.1.6, you need 4 AVR’s. Two Atmos ones to go to 9.1.4 and two more PLII AVR’s to got to 9.1.6.
> 
> Take a look at Mashie’s thread, he has done what you are talking about:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...633-tower-cinema-budget-9-1-6-12x12-room.html



Yeah I saw his and that's where I confused myself. I didn't understand the 4th receiver till now. This is really adding up quickly


----------



## sirjaymz

Nalleh said:


> Hi Al. I tried to make a drawing of how my setup is connected, but i am not sure if it makes it easier or harder to understand, LOOL.
> let me know if you want more info.


Thanks for responding on build thread. Do you have an updated drawing? Interested in how you have connected the 6200 into the mix, as I would like to better understand your overall setup as of now. 
I don't have RV-V3067, so I'll have to determine if I can do what I'm think without having additional equipment.thanks.


----------



## Nalleh

sirjaymz said:


> Thanks for responding on build thread. Do you have an updated drawing? Interested in how you have connected the 6200 into the mix, as I would like to better understand your overall setup as of now.
> I don't have RV-V3067, so I'll have to determine if I can do what I'm think without having additional equipment.thanks.


Mashie has the «correct» drawing. He has taken it further by also using ScAtmos to go to 9.1.6, but if you want 9.1.4, just forget about the two NAD’s he is using, and use the second AVR to power the heights. No ext amp needed.

Check post 5:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...ema-budget-9-1-6-12x12-room.html#post46974841


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## Nalleh

I guess i can update with some pics in this thread too, since i am done with the sono build.

Old vs new subs.



















From start to finish.










And after some calibration i ended up with this curve.










And a comp sweep with both sonos and a Inuke 6K on each cab.











So now, with above reference down to below 10hz, the MBM, 4 Crowsons, Atmos 13.4.8, 4K UHD HDR, it is truly a blast watching movies.

Until the next upgrade comes along 



Come a way since 2012, LOOL:


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Freaking awesome!! I bet it really is a blast watching movies in there. Damn nice FR and sweeps. I've seen your VS graphs in the VibSensor thread as well to go with it. Bravo!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ Freaking awesome!! I bet it really is a blast watching movies in there. Damn nice FR and sweeps. I've seen your VS graphs in the VibSensor thread as well to go with it. Bravo!


Thanks 

I showed some pics of the setup to a co-worker the other day at work, and he just shook his head in disbelieve and said: are you insane? That is nuts!

So yeah, i guess it is «a little» above «normal». But that’s what you get for hanging out in this forum.


But yes it is very cool to enjoy movies nowadays in this setup. However i had some bad luck the other day: my Denon 7200 stopped working, as in no sound from any inboard amps. Picture was fine, and if i turned it off and on a couple of times the sound came back. This happened several times, so i had to deliver it in to service. It it still under warranty, so no worries, but it will probably take a couple of weeks.

So i am down to just 2! Atmos AVR’s now.

How will i survive.......


----------



## Mashie Saldana

Not sure how you will survive, maybe you have to resort to watching films from the 1940s in mono sound. 

Those sonosubs are pretty. Unfortunately those types of tubes are extremely rare here in the UK.

Have you thought about getting rid of that massive dip at 53 Hz? It could be as simple as sliding one of the subs a bit forward into the room.


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> Not sure how you will survive, maybe you have to resort to watching films from the 1940s in mono sound.
> 
> Those sonosubs are pretty. Unfortunately those types of tubes are extremely rare here in the UK.
> 
> Have you thought about getting rid of that massive dip at 53 Hz? It could be as simple as sliding one of the subs a bit forward into the room.


Yes, did you notice there is no dip whatsoever when playing either one of the sono’s?


----------



## Nalleh

sirjaymz said:


> Do you have an updated drawing? Interested in how you have connected the 6200 into the mix, as I would like to better understand your overall setup as of now.


Thanks for guiding me to find a app to make a updated drawing. Found a app for Ipad called «Lucidchart» which worked rather well for this purpose.


----------



## Mashie Saldana

Nalleh said:


> Yes, did you notice there is no dip whatsoever when playing either one of the sono’s?


I did, that could probably be explained that when you have a single sub running the standing waves left to right are interacting with the waves in the lenghtwise direction breaking up the dip.

However when you run both subs then you cancel out the sideways standing waves while the lenghtwise ones are free to roam without interference. I'll bet that 53Hz is the room mode for the lenght of the room.


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> I did, that could probably be explained that when you have a single sub running the standing waves left to right are interacting with the waves in the lenghtwise direction breaking up the dip.
> 
> However when you run both subs then you cancel out the sideways standing waves while the lenghtwise ones are free to roam without interference. I'll bet that 53Hz is the room mode for the lenght of the room.


Yes, you are probably right and i will look into it som more. However, it is very narrow so i will leave it like this for now. It still sounds awsome, and it is a good thing to have something to improve upon


----------



## Mashie Saldana

Indeed, and the fix is another two sonosubs


----------



## Nalleh

When will it stop?

Today this happened:










Well, why not? I had the PSA lying around, so i thought i could try it as a near field sub.

And then i put the MBM on top of it, covered by an blanket in same colour as couch. Neat huh?










So far i think it is a keeper, it really adds the the ULFTR together with the (midbass)TR from the MBM.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Oh yeah, cool!! Might as well since you had the extra sub and get a little more feel down low.


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ i know, right 

And i managed to make a drawing of the LFE chain too


----------



## Mashie Saldana

I'm curious what has happened to that 53Hz dip now when you have a third sub running.


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> I'm curious what has happened to that 53Hz dip now when you have a third sub running.



I’ll see if i can measure it this weekend.

Emotiva has a 50% off on cables, so i ordered a couple of the 7-rca cable version. They are $10 each.










I have used Monoprice rca cables until now(in top of pic), but they are very thick, stiff, and bulky, so these Emotivs cables are a dream in comparison.

And as i for example use 7 pre-outs from the 7200(FH+RH+SB+VOG), one of these cable will do the trick. Much neater solution. I oredred 4 of them 

Ordered last week, and had them today. Unfortunatly they are only available in 1 meter length, but that is ok with me.


----------



## mtbdudex

Nicely documented thread sir.
Now, I need to download the app "Lucidchart" (or similar) as I see you've shown its abilities here for documentation.


----------



## stikle

Nalleh said:


> I get a lot of questions about my setup



Ok buddy, here's one more since you did this to me! 



Nalleh said:


> All controlled by a Logitech Harmony Ultimate with the hub+4 extenders.



I also have the Harmony Ultimate+hub+2 extenders. I'm only using the hub with no extenders at the moment as nothing is enclosed in a cabinet yet.

What I want to know is HOW IN THE HECK did you configure your Harmony to work correctly? I haven't figured out how to control each AVR independently.

Right now when I do the _Watch TV activity_: 



The TV powers on
The Satellite box powers on
The 6200 powers on and switches to the SAT input
The 4200 powers on but always seems to default to the Bluray input.
Then I have to go to the 6200 and manually push the Zone 2 power button
Then I have to push the Zone 2 source button until the satellite signal is fed to the 4200 (that took forever to figure out!).
Then on the 4200 I have to turn the knob until it gets to the SAT input (where the incoming HDMI is going)

And voila' I get a digital HDMI input and overheads.

In another other scenario for _Watch a Movie_



The TV powers on
The Oppo powers on
The 6200 powers on and switches to the Bluray input
The 4200 powers on but defaults to the Bluray input.
Then I have to go to the 6200 and manually push the Zone 2 power button
Then I have to push the Zone 2 source button until the Bluray signal is fed to the 4200
Then on the 4200 I have to turn the knob until it gets to the SAT input (where the incoming HDMI is going)

I don't want to have to get up from the couch to do all of this manual button pushing and knob turning.

I've tried various things I've found online but now I'm at a point of frustration and am looking for your guidance. Something in my brain just isn't clicking.

So...what advice do you have for me?


----------



## Nalleh

stikle said:


> Ok buddy, here's one more since you did this to me!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also have the Harmony Ultimate+hub+2 extenders. I'm only using the hub with no extenders at the moment as nothing is enclosed in a cabinet yet.
> 
> What I want to know is HOW IN THE HECK did you configure your Harmony to work correctly? I haven't figured out how to control each AVR independently.
> 
> Right now when I do the _Watch TV activity_:
> 
> 
> 
> The TV powers on
> The Satellite box powers on
> The 6200 powers on and switches to the SAT input
> The 4200 powers on but always seems to default to the Bluray input.
> Then I have to go to the 6200 and manually push the Zone 2 power button
> Then I have to push the Zone 2 source button until the satellite signal is fed to the 4200 (that took forever to figure out!).
> Then on the 4200 I have to turn the knob until it gets to the SAT input (where the incoming HDMI is going)
> 
> And voila' I get a digital HDMI input and overheads.
> 
> In another other scenario for _Watch a Movie_
> 
> 
> 
> The TV powers on
> The Oppo powers on
> The 6200 powers on and switches to the Bluray input
> The 4200 powers on but defaults to the Bluray input.
> Then I have to go to the 6200 and manually push the Zone 2 power button
> Then I have to push the Zone 2 source button until the Bluray signal is fed to the 4200
> Then on the 4200 I have to turn the knob until it gets to the SAT input (where the incoming HDMI is going)
> 
> I don't want to have to get up from the couch to do all of this manual button pushing and knob turning.
> 
> I've tried various things I've found online but now I'm at a point of frustration and am looking for your guidance. Something in my brain just isn't clicking.
> 
> So...what advice do you have for me?


Yes, it is a conundrum for sure 

But it is doable.

First of all, on the 4200 go to setup-inputs and «hide» all other inputs than the SAT one you are using. Then that input ONLY is available no matter what other input button you press.

Secondly program your Harmony to turn on Zone2 on your 6200. You may have to teach this command, but is easy enough. This will also turn on Zone2 on the 4200, but that is ok.

Third, for the zone2 input you need to download the Denon remote app to your mobile phone. Open the app, connect to your 6200 and go to «zones». Under input in zone2, choose «source». This way it will always follow the main zone input.

Top tip: it may happen that the volume level get out of sync between the two AVR’s, and for this i find the Quick Select buttons invaluable, as they also store volume level(amongst many things). So get everything as you want it and make sure the volume is the same on both, and then press and hold one of the QS buttons, until you see on the screen it is saved. This way whenever they become out of sync, just press that QS button and voila: synced 
You may also go to setup-audio-volume and make sure they both have the same «power-on volume».

Ps: in my setup the 7200 can change remote codes to several(4) different code sets, so no crossing there.


----------



## Mashie Saldana

To control Zone2 on an AVR using Harmony you need to add it as a separate device with Zone2 on the end.

So I have Marantz SR7010 and Marantz SR7010 Zone2 in My Harmony and no SR6010 since the commands are the same.

It turned out to be impossible to add that second one using either the remote itself or the phone app, it could only be done using the PC app due to the first two rejecting the name. Just Google harmony Zone2 and you will find the guide online.

With this setup I no longer use SOURCE as input for Zone 2, I have both of them select the same input, works fine and only one extra step to add in the Activity script. As nalleh wrote, you need to disable all but one of the HDMI inputs on the secondary AVR, if that isn't done nothing will work.


----------



## stikle

I finally made progress last night, thank you for your tips!



Nalleh said:


> First of all, on the 4200 go to setup-inputs and «hide» all other inputs than the SAT one you are using. Then that input ONLY is available no matter what other input button you press.



That worked perfectly!



Nalleh said:


> Secondly program your Harmony to turn on Zone2 on your 6200. You may have to teach this command, but is easy enough. This will also turn on Zone2 on the 4200, but that is ok.



I was having a big problem with this for the last week. I could not get the remote to learn ANY command. Then I ran across a single post that pointed me in the right direction. I've got the hub set to send IR, not the remote. I had to actually go get the hub and point my original remote at THAT and it instantly picked up the code. The MyHarmony app only told me to point it at the back of the remote at the IR window. The app should have adjusted and told me to use the hub instead. So I was on the right track, just using the wrong device. 

That's as far as I got last night, but finally making progress felt good. Thank you so much!



Mashie Saldana said:


> To control Zone2 on an AVR using Harmony you need to add it as a separate device with Zone2 on the end.



I found many posts saying this, thank you.

What I ended up doing instead was adding a new button to my 6200 called _Zone 2 Power_, and then learning Z2 power from the original remote. Then I also created a _Zone 2 Satellite_ and _Zone 2 Bluray_ and learned those Z2 buttons from the original remote also. Then I just added those buttons to the power on sequence for the appropriate activity. During testing both of those last night, everything seemed to power up and function as I expected. I think there's a problem with powering off though as Z2 stayed on. I just need to go change the power off sequence to add Z2 Power I believe.


----------



## Nalleh

Nice to hear you are making progress 



stikle said:


> I finally made progress last night, thank you for your tips!
> 
> I was having a big problem with this for the last week. I could not get the remote to learn ANY command. Then I ran across a single post that pointed me in the right direction. I've got the hub set to send IR, not the remote. I had to actually go get the hub and point my original remote at THAT and it instantly picked up the code. The MyHarmony app only told me to point it at the back of the remote at the IR window. The app should have adjusted and told me to use the hub instead. So I was on the right track, just using the wrong device.
> 
> 
> That sounds strange, as i have learned many codes pointing it a the back of the Harmony. Never failed
> 
> What I ended up doing instead was adding a new button to my 6200 called _Zone 2 Power_, and then learning Z2 power from the original remote. Then I also created a _Zone 2 Satellite_ and _Zone 2 Bluray_ and learned those Z2 buttons from the original remote also. Then I just added those buttons to the power on sequence for the appropriate activity. During testing both of those last night, everything seemed to power up and function as I expected. I think there's a problem with powering off though as Z2 stayed on. I just need to go change the power off sequence to add Z2 Power I believe.


Well, if you did the third trick i mentioned, you would not need to worry about zone2 input. It would work automatically.


----------



## stikle

I ran out of time last night. I'd rather it be simple and work automatically, so now that I know how to make it work this way, I'll go back and do the third trick.


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> To control Zone2 on an AVR using Harmony you need to add it as a separate device with Zone2 on the end.
> 
> It turned out to be impossible to add that second one using either the remote itself or the phone app, it could only be done using the PC app due to the first two rejecting the name. Just Google harmony Zone2 and you will find the guide online.


Thanks i did not know this. I tried to do something similar in the beginning of my project, but could not get it registered, so i ended up learning it the few zone2 codes needed.

But i may have to try this, to clean up a little


----------



## stikle

Well, tip #3 worked as well.

The only thing I noticed, which is not a big deal, is that if I'm already doing an activity like Watch TV and switch to Watch Movie, Zone 2 powers off then back on. If I don't have Z2 in the power off sequence, then it'll stay on all the time, which is not preferable so I'm ok with this behavior.

Much progress thanks to your help.


----------



## Mashie Saldana

stikle said:


> Well, tip #3 worked as well.
> 
> The only thing I noticed, which is not a big deal, is that if I'm already doing an activity like Watch TV and switch to Watch Movie, Zone 2 powers off then back on. If I don't have Z2 in the power off sequence, then it'll stay on all the time, which is not preferable so I'm ok with this behavior.
> 
> Much progress thanks to your help.


If you set up an AVR as Zone2 then that issue will go away, I have not had a single issue with this setup. The only time the volume will get out of sync is if you chage the volume a lot at once and that's about it.


----------



## stikle

Mashie Saldana said:


> If you set up an AVR as Zone2 then that issue will go away, I have not had a single issue with this setup.


I didn't have luck with that method previously. But now that I'm on a roll and things are working I'll go back and try that again.


----------



## Nalleh

stikle said:


> Well, tip #3 worked as well.
> 
> The only thing I noticed, which is not a big deal, is that if I'm already doing an activity like Watch TV and switch to Watch Movie, Zone 2 powers off then back on. If I don't have Z2 in the power off sequence, then it'll stay on all the time, which is not preferable so I'm ok with this behavior.
> 
> Much progress thanks to your help.


That is correct, and so does my extra zones when switching activities.



Mashie Saldana said:


> If you set up an AVR as Zone2 then that issue will go away, I have not had a single issue with this setup. The only time the volume will get out of sync is if you chage the volume a lot at once and that's about it.


That makes sense, as it would be handled as a seperate AVR, and the AVR’s do not switch off when switching activities.


----------



## stikle

If you had to pick one Atmos track for demo purposes that includes wide objects, what would it be?

I'm fine with the setup, and it's cool to part of the club, but I have in the back of my mind - I spent $550 just so I could have wides that are rarely used?


----------



## Mashie Saldana

The opening sequence for Unbroken is quite good for wides.


----------



## stikle

Perfect, I have that. Thanks


----------



## MackGuyver

I'd like to thank you for posting this thread. Next time my wife complains that I'm obsessive about my HT or asks why I spent hundreds of dollars on gear to calibrate my new TV, I can say that my system is teeny, tiny compared to yours!

Your setup is completely insane and utterly awesome!


----------



## Nalleh

stikle said:


> If you had to pick one Atmos track for demo purposes that includes wide objects, what would it be?
> 
> I'm fine with the setup, and it's cool to part of the club, but I have in the back of my mind - I spent $550 just so I could have wides that are rarely used?


Opening scene in Gravity is demo material for sure. Actually the whole movie 



MackGuyver said:


> I'd like to thank you for posting this thread. Next time my wife complains that I'm obsessive about my HT or asks why I spent hundreds of dollars on gear to calibrate my new TV, I can say that my system is teeny, tiny compared to yours!
> 
> Your setup is completely insane and utterly awesome!


Haha, thanks. Nice to hear i could be used as a «worst case scenario» example


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> I'm curious what has happened to that 53Hz dip now when you have a third sub running.


It helped 










Comp sweep of the PSA nearfield.










And a new one of all 4.










The PSA helped a couple of dB’s all over, and also aided in the TR department, so it’s a win-win 


And above reference down to ~8hz. Not bad.


----------



## stikle

Mashie Saldana said:


> The opening sequence for Unbroken is quite good for wides.





stikle said:


> Perfect, I have that. Thanks



Well, that was quite pleasing and made me smile.


----------



## Nalleh

I see you have updated your signature already  Love your setup


----------



## stikle

Nalleh said:


> Opening scene in Gravity is demo material for sure. Actually the whole movie



Unfortunately my library is now in boxes in a storage unit while I'm selling my house and moving into a new one. I'll be sure to revisit that once I'm moved and have Theater 2.0 set up.


----------



## Nalleh

So this is what i am going to test next


----------



## Jonathan Schwabe

Is it possible to do 11.2.4 on my Marantz 8802a and 7010, 9.2.0 with 8802a and 5.0.4+wides on 7010, to get 2 wides on each side ?


----------



## Nalleh

Jonathan Schwabe said:


> Is it possible to do 11.2.4 on my Marantz 8802a and 7010, 9.2.0 with 8802a and 5.0.4+wides on 7010, to get 2 wides on each side ?


Yes, that is basically the same as what i do here.


I use a third AVR to get 8 heights, but that is my «problem».

On another note: Franken-Atmos may be a thing of the past... this one here is making me reconsider:

https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx8500h


----------



## Jonathan Schwabe

Nalleh said:


> Yes, that is basically the same as what i do here.


Will it be correct atmos ? with the 9.2.0 and 5.0.4+wides..


----------



## Nalleh

Jonathan Schwabe said:


> Will it be correct atmos ? with the 9.2.0 and 5.0.4+wides..


Well, the 9.1.0 +0.0.4 will be correct, and then you fill in the «special wides» and the «spesial surrounds». Correct? You deside.....


----------



## Jonathan Schwabe

Nalleh said:


> Yes, that is basically the same as what i do here.
> 
> 
> I use a third AVR to get 8 heights, but that is my «problem».
> 
> On another note: Franken-Atmos may be a thing of the past... this one here is making me reconsider:
> 
> https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx8500h


and http://www.us.marantz.com/us/Produc...CatId=AVSeparates&SubCatId=0&ProductId=AV8805


----------



## Jonathan Schwabe

Nalleh said:


> Well, the 9.1.0 +0.0.4 will be correct, and then you fill in the «special wides» and the «spesial surrounds». Correct? You deside.....


I dont have space for special surrounds..


----------



## Nalleh

Jonathan Schwabe said:


> and http://www.us.marantz.com/us/Produc...CatId=AVSeparates&SubCatId=0&ProductId=AV8805



Yeah, no thanks: with that one i am going to get a bucketload of amps 
That is the genious part with the 8500: it has all the amps built in 



Jonathan Schwabe said:


> I dont have space for special surrounds..


Well, i’ll leave it up to you then 



On another note:
SVS PB12/2 SOLD!
Denon AVR-X5200 SOLD!

AVR-X8500H one step closer........


----------



## Nalleh

8500 preordered today.....


----------



## Jonathan Schwabe

Dejligt.


----------



## Mashie Saldana

Shame the 8500 doesn't support 11.1.2 or 5.1.8, could have replaced your entire setup with two of them then.

I take it the 8500 will be driving all the heights, are you going to use it for any of the base layer speakers as well?


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> Shame the 8500 doesn't support 11.1.2 or 5.1.8, could have replaced your entire setup with two of them then.
> 
> I take it the 8500 will be driving all the heights, are you going to use it for any of the base layer speakers as well?


Correct, the 8500 setup as 7.1.6 and e 7200 as 9.1.2 running fronts, wides and side surrounds. 8500 on the rest. So 9.1.6.

Unless the 8500 alone is enough


----------



## Mashie Saldana

You probably want to use the 8500 for the rear surround as well so DTS:X doesn't get messed up.


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> You probably want to use the 8500 for the rear surround as well so DTS:X doesn't get messed up.


I did, read again.


----------



## Nalleh

Nalleh said:


> On another note:
> SVS PB12/2 SOLD!
> Denon AVR-X5200 SOLD!
> 
> AVR-X8500H one step closer........


Ok, so i sold the 6200 today, and 2 antimodes i don’t use anymore, so the 8500 is almost paid for 

So now i am down to 1 !! Atmos AVR, the 7200. Damn, i feel naked. Is this what it feels like to be normal ?

I don’t like it.........


----------



## Mashie Saldana

Back to 7.1.4 now then?


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> Back to 7.1.4 now then?


Yup 



Just to avoid depression i still have my matrixed VOG though.


----------



## vn800art

Personally, having still Sr7011 (7.1 input multichannel), plus one solid state for 2 fronts, plus another 7.1 input for heights, I do not discard going for the Marantz 8805 Av processor . I always heard seperets chassis are better than integrated ones.
The price tag is a bit high, though. And the important advanced processing (even Auro3D one) are still to come.
We will see after the upgrades if there will be something left for my 7011!
For the choice and integration with existing equipment, I believe @Nalleh will have nothing to regret, cheers to him!
Regards
Alessandro


----------



## Nalleh

Actually, after some though: IF i am not satisfied with the new 9.1.6 setup mentioned above, i CAN actually keep my current 13.1.8 setup by setting the new 8500 as 9.1.4 with FH+RH and the 7200 as «specialwides» in a 5.1.4+W and TF+TR setup. This time with only 2 AVR’s and no reconfigs necessery(disabling height2 to gain wides and rerouting heights to 6200 and using 5200 for tops).

And still get Auro 13.1, still with no reconfig.

Options, options...

Very exited to try out the 8500 on its own though


----------



## vn800art

I will wait your reports; what is the ETA of the new equipment ?


----------



## Nalleh

My dealer says 1 of March.


----------



## Tatts4Life

WOW just started reading this thread and the setup is amazing. Makes me jealous that you can do a setup like this.


----------



## runmeshawltd

Just read this thread also, extreme is an understatement, love it.


----------



## Nalleh

Tatts4Life said:


> WOW just started reading this thread and the setup is amazing. Makes me jealous that you can do a setup like this.





runmeshawltd said:


> Just read this thread also, extreme is an understatement, love it.


Thanks, guys. Glad you liked it 
I was very fortunate to make some good deal on both selling old gear and buying new stuff/used gear, which has made this possible. Plus i find it very interesting to deal with this stuff, but make no mistake: i have spent COUNTLESS hours connecting, configuring, testing, calibrating, reconfiguring etc. The thought process of making all the different formats and connections works, is exhausting.

So this is maybe not for any normal guy


----------



## stikle

Nalleh said:


> The thought process of making all the different formats and connections works, is exhausting.
> 
> So this is maybe not for any normal guy



It's NOT. That's why I got you to figure out what I needed to do. 

Now I'm wondering if I can go to 6 overheads off the 4200. I've got a spare 2 ch amp if that helps. I'll have to go peruse the manual and see what I can see. I haven't really put any thought into it past "I wonder...".


----------



## Nalleh

stikle said:


> It's NOT. That's why I got you to figure out what I needed to do.
> 
> Now I'm wondering if I can go to 6 overheads off the 4200. I've got a spare 2 ch amp if that helps. I'll have to go peruse the manual and see what I can see. I haven't really put any thought into it past "I wonder...".


Haha, yes you tricked me into that one 
No seriously, i am glad to help.

«I wonder......»... isn’t that how everything starts out?


----------



## AmerCa

Nalleh said:


> Thanks, guys. Glad you liked it
> I was very fortunate to make some good deal on both selling old gear and buying new stuff/used gear, which has made this possible. Plus i find it very interesting to deal with this stuff, but make no mistake: i have spent COUNTLESS hours connecting, configuring, testing, calibrating, reconfiguring etc. The thought process of making all the different formats and connections works, is exhausting.
> 
> So this is maybe not for any normal guy


I can't even comprehend what you're doing there. And I'm not sure I'd want to! I'd be happy if I could "only" have a 5.1(2).4 setup, with a good subwoofer(s). 7.2.4 is a dream! I don't even have the space or money for that stuff. What you're doing doesn't even register in my mind.


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, yesterday this came in the door:










OPPO released a new beta firmware in january, that made UHD watching on projectors better, so when a good deal on a slightly used 203 turned up, i could not resist. It’s regionfree to, so i can sell my old 103.

Looking forward to testing it out


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, so Received my 203 yesterday. Installed the new firmware from USB, no problems. And i believe i found my new favourite picture 
Using HDR off(BT2020), target luminance 300, and mode 2 with the RS600 at BT2020 and gamma 2.4, it’s the best picture i have seen yet. The prevous custom curve just seem dark in comparison. And so easy to tweak the OPPO settings. Good times 

I did also download the latest DC custom curves from Manni’s collection, and it was better than my own, but the OPPO was better.


----------



## Tatts4Life

I was curious and looked this up on Amazon because I here people talk about Oppo players all the time. OMG the price is nuts, but it sounds like a really nice player.


----------



## johnnyboy632

Hi Nalleh
Just a quick question regarding the hdmi zone 2 setup menu, what should I set the volume at so when I daisy chain to the next avr the volume will be the same for both avr’s. I would like use only 1 controller, hope this makes sense, cheers and what a great setup you have 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nalleh

johnnyboy632 said:


> Hi Nalleh
> Just a quick question regarding the hdmi zone 2 setup menu, what should I set the volume at so when I daisy chain to the next avr the volume will be the same for both avr’s. I would like use only 1 controller, hope this makes sense, cheers and what a great setup you have
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The volume on Zon2 HDMI out is fixed, as it is really just a copy of what comes in. So you either have to leave AVR2 at the volume you watch movies at and tape over the remote sensor, or use the «remote out» jack at the back of the AVR1 to the «remote in» jack on AVR2, and control volume that way. Not a perfect solution, but it works.


----------



## Nalleh

Worked a little on the «better picture» department of my HT over the weekend. I have some black velvet curtains on each side of the screen already, and had some ideas and all parts needed to a similar solution in the ceiling. I used more of the same (dirt cheap) black velvet as on the wall, and made a ceiling curtain that goes about 5 feet out from the front wall. With a white ceiling this made a world of difference in reduced light reflection, and the room «diseappered» in the movie. Really made it more immersive to watch a movie.

I used curtain tracks and mounted them on the vertical board mounted in the ceiling in front of the screen. And i used velcro to hang the velvet in the rear end.

Here is some pictures during the project. Halv of the room done.










Major difference from the white ceiling the right.




















Some pics while watching Blade Runner 2049. LOVE that movie 


















































































As i said, i had all the materials already, so this was a couple of ours on saturday and sunday, and i am very happy so far. This velvet does have some sheen to it, so there is room for improvement, but it is worlds better than it was


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## SBuger

^^^ Hell yeah, that's awesome man!! Crazy what doing more blackout work can do for immersion and making the room disappear huh!! Nice pics!! And oh man, love me some Blade Runner 2049 too! 

What do you have on your floor currently? Blacking that out helps big time too, maybe not quite as drastic as the ceiling, but close. I haven't posted pics yet in my thread, but I just recently put down a black shag rug that covers almost the entire rooms floor, and it made quite a difference from my light carpet, even with everything else blacked out. I was rolling out a 4' deep x 13' wide piece of velvet across the floor in front of the screen, but became a pain in arse since my door is up front on the left. 

The rug is way easier and I can now leave it that way, plus made the room feel so much cozier, and makes the room *totally* disappear. The rug is not quite a pitch black as SY velvet, but I have to seriously look hard to see the difference (if any at all most of the time) when a movie is going.


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## Nalleh

^^^ Yeah, i have a grey shag rug on wood floors, so it’s not that bad, actually.










But the more you blackout the room, the more the un-blacked parts stand out, so yes the floor is noticable. But more so is the white ceiling to the rear of the black velvet, as that is still in front of MLP, as seen in one of the pics above. I have to extend the velvet at least 3 more feet 

And also small things, like led lights on the amps, a bluray cover laying visible, a metal picture frame and so on, that you didn’t notice before suddenly gets very visible.

But then again i can’t do it permanently, as it is my living room, but i have some ideas as usual 

And yeah, while watching Blade Runner yesterday, it went 10-15 minutes at a time, where i was totally immersed in the movie, and then i noticed the white ceiling again, and it drew me out of it.

My brother even commented on it that it felt like you were in the movie, and was much more like beeing in the cinemas.


----------



## SBuger

Oh nice on the rug then. 

You are definitely right about the more you black out the room, the more the un-blacked parts stand out. So makes it hard to stop once you get started. 

Well, your making some great headway in blackening and doing a hell of a job for being in a living room. There is no way I could have got away (WAF) with black velvet on the ceiling when I was in the living room, but did find ways for the sides and back with putting velvet on rods as curtains and helped a lot.


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## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Oh nice on the rug then.
> 
> You are definitely right about the more you black out the room, the more the un-blacked parts stand out. So makes it hard to stop once you get started.
> 
> Well, your making some great headway in blackening and doing a hell of a job for being in a living room. There is no way I could have got away (WAF) with black velvet on the ceiling when I was in the living room, but did find ways for the sides and back with putting velvet on rods as curtains and helped a lot.



Yeah, don’t forget all the black velvet curtains inc. the ceiling ones are retracted to the corners during the day, so pretty much out of the way then. So it is a couple of minutes to get into movie mode when watching a movie: push the remote activity watch a movie, and while the gear powers up, i go around drawing all the curtains  I’ll see if i can make a timelapse of it one day 

But i am considering som better velvet, you’re using Syfabrics right? Did you buy directly from them?


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## SBuger

^^^

Looks and Sounds like you've got a pretty smooth operation going on there, nice ..I'm impressed!!

Yeah I used all SY Triple Black Velvet. I had to use true blackout cloth to cover two windows but then just went over my treatments and that blackout cloth on the windows with the SY. I already had about half of what I needed from my living room. Pretty pricey stuff, but not compared to some of the Joanns Velvet. I think I did my whole 13x13 room for about $750 or so. VERY black but does have a bit of sheen sometimes (very slight) when light hits it at certain angles, but not with movies at all (at least I cant see it). When I look side to side, up, or anywhere really, it just looks pitch black and cant tell where the where the walls, ceiling, or even floor starts or stops, kind of freaky but cool. Makes one hell of a difference with immersion, and PQ.

Here's a pic from the other day when I was putting down the black shag rug to give you an idea what the velvet looks like with a lot of light on it. The velvet is probably pretty comparable to yours, what kind is yours again? I had to take off the door and move all my speakers out to get the rug in. Surprisingly, the black shag rug is almost as dark as the velvet, which was a VERY pleasant surprise.


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## Nalleh

^^ Looks nice man 

My velvet is some cheap stuff bought here in Norway, so probably not comparable. The problem with it is when watching a movie(dark/blacked out room) and there is scenes with brightness in them, since the screen is so close to the ceiling, there is some reflections on to the velvet. There is NO sheen on the front wall velvet, as the light from the screen does not shine that way, but a bit out on the side walls, there is a very slight sheen, but that is not as problematic. The ceiling velvet is to much sheen to be completely immersed in movie.

Funny thing is I have to use the backside of the velvet, as the front(main) side has even more sheen to it. Se pic below, back side in left of pic.


Anyway, it’s a work in progress, and relatively to the more expensive parts of the HT, this is a cheap part of it


----------



## Nalleh

On another note: i recently upgraded my Netflix to UHD because i heard rave reviews about several movies/series. I didn’t think i had enough download speed, but turns out I did  Tested with Altered Carbon and it was glorious! Holy Batman that series has quality picture! And it is also in Atmos, so when I discovered a Xbox one X on sale, i had to order it. Since I got the Oppo, i really don’t need the UB900 anymore, and since the Xbox takes care of Netflix, i will sell the 900.

So then i will get to view Netflix in all it’s glory 4K and Atmos. Can’t wait


----------



## Nalleh

Got the Xbox just in time for the weekend. A little bit of setup, downloading and updating, and then it was on!

Tested with a couple of episodes of Altered Carbon and it was exellent. In 4K HDR and with the Atmos track, it is a rather cool improvement over HD and 5.1+DSU. Really impressive picture and sound to be from streaming. Not tried via the projector yet, just tv, so will be fun to test it more.


----------



## 29013leo

Nalleh said:


> Got the Xbox just in time for the weekend. A little bit of setup, downloading and updating, and then it was on!
> 
> Tested with a couple of episodes of Altered Carbon and it was exellent. In 4K HDR and with the Atmos track, it is a rather cool improvement over HD and 5.1+DSU. Really impressive picture and sound to be from streaming. Not tried via the projector yet, just tv, so will be fun to test it more.


hello,
I would like to know your impression about listening between Auro3d and dolby atmos.
Which is the best in recreating the sound from the top level?
which is, in your opinion, the most enveloping audio? auro 3d or atmos?


----------



## Nalleh

29013leo said:


> hello,
> I would like to know your impression about listening between Auro3d and dolby atmos.
> Which is the best in recreating the sound from the top level?
> which is, in your opinion, the most enveloping audio? auro 3d or atmos?



You can read my impressions here: 
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...ead-home-theater-version-71.html#post34315634

I stand by them today


----------



## 29013leo

Thanks for the reply, I just read your comment
Have you ever tried to watch a movie with 5.1 or 7.1 audio hd track and convert it to Auro3d or atmos?
Which is the best result?


----------



## Nalleh

29013leo said:


> Thanks for the reply, I just read your comment
> Have you ever tried to watch a movie with 5.1 or 7.1 audio hd track and convert it to Auro3d or atmos?
> Which is the best result?


Sure. On 5.1 or 7.1 source they all work exellent for upmixing, with DSU beeing the most careful and Neural:X beeing the most extreme in putting content in the heights. Auro is in the middle.

Also Auro leaves the surround backs silent. (Until the 8500 gets the Auro Update that is).

On 2.0 PCM/stereo however Auro behaves different than DSU and N:X as it does no center extract or «convert stereo to surround» treatment. It only «expands» on the stereo signal. In other words treats it like music.


----------



## Nalleh

FINALLY i got the new Denon AVC-X8500H today   

So here is the unboxing pics 





































The transformator, amps, and fans are very easy to spot from the top in real life.










And here the 7200 on top.










Difference in depth










And the staggering amount of connections on the back.










Setup went pretty straight forward, much was the same as the 7200. Used the MultEQ app for calibration, and it was pretty painless, but noted it needed a minute to upload each position to the Ipad, but no biggie. Very easy to use and fast to upload to AVR.
Connected in a 7.1.6 setup, and haven’t had to much time to listen yet, only DSU so far, but it seams a bit clearer and punchier in the sound.
Will be exciting to test out further in coming weeks


----------



## Mashie Saldana

Now that is a beast.


----------



## SBuger

Nice!!!! So exciting getting new HT stuff, and such a cool feeling when it shows up at your door step and you start getting it out of the box  Then the smell of new electronics or speakers (or anything new really) is always nice too LOL

I bet that thing is going to be awesome!! Congrats!!


----------



## Nalleh

Tip of the day:
Since i built my DIY bluray rack, and started using my DIY Sonosubs, i noticed some squeeks and noise coming from the area where the bluray rack was, but couldn’t quite pinpoint from where. The other day i watched a movie that ”triggered” that noise, so i walked to the rack and played it over and over and found the reason/noise.

I had the blurays standing up in the rack when i first mounted it, and it turns out the bluray covers make noise when standing next to each other.

Solution: put the bluray laying down in the rack.

Pic below, as it was to the right, and layed down to the left. 










I could not believe this easy solution solved the problem, no sound at all now!

As a bonus: much easier to read the cover now, than having to tilt your head 90 degrees


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## SBuger

^^^ Nice fix (squeaks can be so annoying) and looks better too IMO


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## SBuger

How you liking that new AVR?


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## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ Nice fix (squeaks can be so annoying) and looks better too IMO


Yeah, i believe it was below 15 maybe even 10 Hz, so it was really bugging me, as it was not in every movie.



SBuger said:


> How you liking that new AVR?



Well, it’s a beast for sure  i tested a bit with opening clip of Gravity yesterday, and 6 heights vs 4 was really noticable. Much more precise panning all over the ceiling when the **** hits the fan. More testing to do, but having fun so far


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## Nalleh

Had me some DTS:X fun time yesterday 

I have the 8500 setup with 5.1.6, playing heights only=X.X.6, and the 7200 setup with 9.1.2, playing 9.X.X.

I played the movie clips, object emulator and 7.1.4 call out on the 2017 DTS:X demo disc, and it all worked FLAWLESS !!

The movie clips was awsome with the best height pannings i have heard so far from DTS:X, and even the 7.1.4 call out sounded perfect. Yes, when playing just 9.X.X, the rear heights leaked to the back surrounds, but when playing with both AVR’s active, it was IMPOSSIBLE to hear this «malfunction» , even when muting/unmuting the base layer.

It in no way shifted/muddied the height placement of sound.

So as far as i could test, it resulted in «correct» DTS:X 9.1.6.


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## unclejam

Are you using TM or SH?


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## Nalleh

unclejam said:


> Are you using TM or SH?


TM. look at the pic


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## Nalleh

Updated first post a bit. And new gear list.


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## Nalleh

Ok, stage 2 in operation blackout. 5 more feet of velvet 

It it still a retractable system tucked away in the corners by day, and a minute or two(while the projector warms up and voila: darkness 




























So after i was done i watched the first Harry Potter movie in UHD and 9.1.6 DTS:X, and it was awsome!










The blackout now reaches 10 feet into the room and end about straight above the MLP, so when watching movie, it is all blackness 

This is not done perfectly and i have made(not so perfectly done) holes in the velvet for the ceiling speakers, but it works in the dark 
I have not sewed any of this together, i have used a insanely strong doublesided tape we use at work for aluminum, but it worked very well for fabrics too. And much easier than sewing.

https://www.tesa.com/industry/tesa-4965.html

Got some work still on the sidewall, so that part is not done yet, but it is a BIG difference now from before. Very happy with the result.

And yes, the soundtrack in Harry Potter was very VERY well done and immersive(as they all are), so i had a blast watching it


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## SBuger

^^^ Wow, well done!! I bet that really does make a real big difference like you say. Looking like a movie theater, I love it!  And very cool that's it retractable by day ..that's pretty slick!

Nice on the Potter Movie. I love those, but still need to watch the last one (although I've seen part of the pt1 disc). That whole part where they fly through the tunnel (and leading up to that) is one of my favorites for demo time. Lots of great surround and midbass that you can feel in the chest. Your NF MBM ought to do the trick nicely for that! Are you gonna watch all of them now since you watched the first? I'm wanting to go watch all of them now. There is a bunch of stuff that I want and need to watch in the new room, but get caught up in tinkering with stuff and tweaking probably more than I should, although I do enjoy that as well. That said, I have been getting some movie watching in too though. 

Yeah I bet that soundtrack is soooooooo fun with your Atmos/DTS:X multi-speaker setup. Lots of cool sounds in the Potter series. 

Nice update, I love seeing pics


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## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ Wow, well done!! I bet that really does make a real big difference like you say. Looking like a movie theater, I love it!  And very cool that's it retractable by day ..that's pretty slick!
> 
> Nice on the Potter Movie. I love those, but still need to watch the last one (although I've seen part of the pt1 disc). That whole part where they fly through the tunnel (and leading up to that) is one of my favorites for demo time. Lots of great surround and midbass that you can feel in the chest. Your NF MBM ought to do the trick nicely for that! Are you gonna watch all of them now since you watched the first? I'm wanting to go watch all of them now. There is a bunch of stuff that I want and need to watch in the new room, but get caught up in tinkering with stuff and tweaking probably more than I should, although I do enjoy that as well. That said, I have been getting some movie watching in too though.
> 
> Yeah I bet that soundtrack is soooooooo fun with your Atmos/DTS:X multi-speaker setup. Lots of cool sounds in the Potter series.
> 
> Nice update, I love seeing pics


Thanks. The blackout part is in part your fault, since i could see the difference it did in your room, and altough the velvet i use isn’t perfect(some sheen) it is sooo much better than white ceiling, LOL.

However, it must be said: it is a bit convoluted process to blackout the room, and it must be done in a set sequence as several pieces overlap each other and it’s a stretch fastening the velcro’s at 7.8 feet ceiling height, but it is sooo worth it, so i won’t complain 

Actually the 4 latest/newest Potter movies was the first to be released in UHD and yes i have seen those and yes they all have awsome DTS:X tracks. Demo tracks all of them 
So i have the first and second movie now, and need to buy nr 3 and 4, but waiting for some discounts on them.

LOL, you say you need to watch movies again in the new room : wait until you get Atmos! Then you will have to watch them all over AGAIN, haha


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## Mashie Saldana

Looking good, I wonder if you could use curtain rails or similar to hold it all up and potentially automate the blackout process.

I will need to watch the Harry Potter UHD's together with all other movies still waiting for my attention.


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## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> Looking good, I wonder if you could use curtain rails or similar to hold it all up and potentially automate the blackout process.
> 
> I will need to watch the Harry Potter UHD's together with all other movies still waiting for my attention.


Yes, that was originally the plan, but the ceiling speakers complicated things, so i just took a short cut


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## brazensol

Looking at what you've done with curtains has me thinking. Instead of building black velvet panels for my front wall I am now considering using curtains instead. Seems it would be easier and would give the screen wall more of a theater-type feeling. I am looking forward to watching the Harry Potter series in UHD with great enthusiasm!


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## am2model3

the denon 8500h 13ch will do 7.1.6; 9.1.4; but it won't allow someone to run 5.1.8? that's kind of a bummer. 5.1.6 would work then. i looked at the official manual and connections; there is a form of doing 4 height channels shown but it looks different somehow. the inputs on the back show that it can handle 4 height channel outputs (8 heights) commonly it shows 2, 4, or 6 height channel examples though.


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## Nalleh

brazensol said:


> Looking at what you've done with curtains has me thinking. Instead of building black velvet panels for my front wall I am now considering using curtains instead. Seems it would be easier and would give the screen wall more of a theater-type feeling. I am looking forward to watching the Harry Potter series in UHD with great enthusiasm!


Yes, that is a easy way to upgrade the movie experience. And it shouldn’t take more than acouple of hours do get it done. Walls are easy, ceilings are more work 
And when they are tucked away in the corners, they really are unintrusive.



am2model3 said:


> the denon 8500h 13ch will do 7.1.6; 9.1.4; but it won't allow someone to run 5.1.8? that's kind of a bummer. 5.1.6 would work then. i looked at the official manual and connections; there is a form of doing 4 height channels shown but it looks different somehow. the inputs on the back show that it can handle 4 height channel outputs (8 heights) commonly it shows 2, 4, or 6 height channel examples though.


Yes, it is flexible, but missing a few options. You can’t do 7.1.6 with wides instead of surr backs either, even if that is within the 13.1 channel limit.

The 8 height speaker option is to cather both 6 heights in Atmos and 6 heights in Auro, which is max of what both can do with this AVR.


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## Nalleh

More tweaking. Since the Inuke have more PEQ bands than the Minidsp, i tried to move eq to it, and at the same time get a cleaner signal to the Inuke(not so much boost). Seemed to work better. 

Made a graph comparing the old PSA/SVS setup(black curve) with the first attempt on the Sonos(red curve). And then the latest curve from yesterday(blue curve). Look at the increased extension below 40Hz, and smoother curve.


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## SBuger

Wow, and nice extension down to 5hz or so!!  Looks like its giving you some great results. I messed with using the PEQ in the iNukes for a while, but preferred the miniDSP and went back it it, partially because it seemed to have more control over the LS that I have to use on my sealed subs. But partially I think just because I'm a lot more used to it. I'm sure I could get used to it if I had too. Looks like it's working great for you. Awesome!!


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## Nalleh

Well, i was a little hesitant to use Inuke PEQ too, but when i first decided to go that way, it was a breeze to operate. I simply fixed the peaks and dips with the Inuke, and then used the Minidsp to shape the curve. I felt it got more correct this way.

Somehow the new Denon 8500 seems ot have a better LFE calibration, as i always had to up the LFE level after Audyssey with the 7200, but with this one i leave it as is.

Granted i run Audeyssey with just one sono with special pre eq to get flat signal to the Crowsons and then EQ after with Minidsp(and Inuke), but i did that before too.


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, so i have been following different threads searching for nearfield solution, and i am going to try this one out:



EndersShadow said:


> It will be replacing this:



Found a store here in Norway that actually has the CS1214 cheap, so i ordered 4 of them  Going to try them in sealed boxes just behind the couch, very near field.

Granted this is no 18”, and NOT a HST 18”, but it seem to work rather well down to 20 Hz and below, actually.


----------



## eeyoreDK

Hi Nalleh

Thanks for all the information in your thread. Right now I have a Marantz SR7010 set up as 9.1.2 but would like to expand it to 9.1.6, but I need some help figuring out the best way to achieve that.

I can see that some matrix the missing height speakers using two additional amps with Dolby Pro Logic II. I can see how that will work if you forgo Audyssey on the top layer.

I however have some difficulty is figuring out how your setup would works with discrete Dolby Atmos test tones. Playing test Dolby 9.1.6 test, does the discrete test tones come out of the correct speaker, or do you have some "overlap" between speakers?

I have the possibility to get another SR7010 and have an older Denon AVR-1912 laying around. What would be a good setup to achieve 9.1.6 with dual SR7010 and AVR-1912 (if needed).


----------



## Mashie Saldana

eeyoreDK said:


> I have the possibility to get another SR7010 and have an older Denon AVR-1912 laying around. What would be a good setup to achieve 9.1.6 with dual SR7010 and AVR-1912 (if needed).


In your situation you could get away with just two SR7010's, set the first one to 9.1.2 and the second to 5.1.4+Zone2, assign the fronts to pre-outs. Then get a simple Behringer stereo mixer, connect the front and rear height pre-outs to the mixer, connect the summarised output to the Zone2 analog in. You now have 9.1.6 fully amplified with just two AVRs. Sure the top middle's aren't perfectly extracted but nor will they be with PLII as all large overhead objects will become small as all three speakers never can be engaged at once.

I have 9.1.6 using 4 units and would happily go down to two if it wasn't for my second AVR lacking the extra amplification needed.


----------



## Nalleh

eeyoreDK said:


> Hi Nalleh
> 
> Thanks for all the information in your thread. Right now I have a Marantz SR7010 set up as 9.1.2 but would like to expand it to 9.1.6, but I need some help figuring out the best way to achieve that.
> 
> I can see that some matrix the missing height speakers using two additional amps with Dolby Pro Logic II. I can see how that will work if you forgo Audyssey on the top layer.
> 
> I however have some difficulty is figuring out how your setup would works with discrete Dolby Atmos test tones. Playing test Dolby 9.1.6 test, does the discrete test tones come out of the correct speaker, or do you have some "overlap" between speakers?
> 
> I have the possibility to get another SR7010 and have an older Denon AVR-1912 laying around. What would be a good setup to achieve 9.1.6 with dual SR7010 and AVR-1912 (if needed).


Well, Mashie covered one solution. Batpig suggested simply setting the first AVR as 9.1.2 with top middle as height setup, and connect it as such. And then use AVR 2 as 0.0.4 with either FH+RH or TF+TR.
(Don’t forget that with two 11 ch AVR’s, the second could also be used for ”special wides+side surrounds” used in this thread )

I had it as a double height setup, AVR1 as FH+RH, and AVR2 as TF+TR. This does make top middle signal more stable, as two setups phantoms the same signal.

Of course NOW i have the best solution: a 8500+7200 combo for a correct 9.1.6 setup


----------



## brazensol

Nalleh said:


> Well, Mashie covered one solution. Batpig suggested simply setting the first AVR as 9.1.2 with top middle as height setup, and connect it as such. And then use AVR 2 as 0.0.4 with either FH+RH or TF+TR.
> (Don’t forget that with two 11 ch AVR’s, the second could also be used for ”special wides+side surrounds” used in this thread )
> 
> I had it as a double height setup, AVR1 as FH+RH, and AVR2 as TF+TR. This does make top middle signal more stable, as two setups phantoms the same signal.
> 
> Of course NOW i have the best solution: a 8500+7200 combo for a correct 9.1.6 setup


The more I think about it the more I think I will be going the same route except using a 6200 instead of the 7200. If I already had additional amps lying about I would probably try and be patient and go with the Emotiva solution but who knows when it will be available and it would cost me considerably more after adding amplifiers. Besides, I really want to start watching movies before the end of June.


----------



## Nalleh

Upgrades.


Got the JBL’s today 

So, i have several enclosures for 12” subs from back when i was into car audio laying out in the garage, two singles about 1.5 ft3 and a double with about 1.3 ft3 pr sub, so at least i can test the JBL’s using them and then deside about size. They look like crap, but they work 

So picked one and mounted one sub and put it behind the couch next to the B1200 MBM. And did a quck REW.










This is of course FR only and says nothing about TR, but look at the dfference below 40 hz !! The B1200 is dead below 40! 

Actually impressed by the tight and nice sound from the JBL, and with 4 of them and some EQ, i think they could be very well suited for VNF duty.

More to come .....


----------



## Nalleh

The obligatory box pic  Two mounted already i a 2X1.3ft3 car trunk enclosure.










The two other 1.5ft3 cabs behind each seat, and the MBM in the middle. These two cabs look like crap, but they don’t leak, so will do for now.









Did a close mic measuremnt of the 1.3 vs the 1.5 ft3 cabs, and they have pretty much the same response.
(The black curve is one SI18)










Almost the same as in the spec paper:










Will see tomorrow if i can start integrating everything together...


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## vn800art

With what are they supposed to be driven, if I may ask You?


----------



## Nalleh

vn800art said:


> With what are they supposed to be driven, if I may ask You?


Inuke 6K 

These are 4ohms drivers, so two in series=8ohm on each channel of the inuke = 1100 watt RMS/2= 550 watt pr driver.


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, so i dove into it some more. First of all i repeated the close mic, as the earlier was not done both at the same time. This time i did both 1.3ft3 and the 1.5ft3 back to back, placing them exactly the same, and placed mic in center of cone 1cm from it.

And the measurement is even more alike. Slight difference above 60hz in 1.3ft3’s advantage.










Theni did a comp sweep of both with mic 1 meter from cone, both placed exactly the same. This is in-room, but placed in the middle of room, away from walls. Anyway the point is if the cuves match between 1.3 and 1.5ft3.










The two sets of curves overlap almost exactly, however if you look at the dB’s below the pic, you will see the 1.3ft3 is about 0.5 dB more on each curve. (PS: this is just one driver, not all 4)

And here is the close mic vs at MLP in nearfield placement, no eq. Rather drastic difference....











So i did a little eq’ing and integrating which resulted in these curves 










Haven’t listened to much yet, but the 4 JBL’s has the power to shake the windows and they work to below 14 Hz, very punchy and tight too. I am questioning if i need the MBM anymore....


----------



## Nalleh

Well, colour me impressed.

Just for fun, after another tweaking session today, i wanted to know how the CS1214’s handled the EOT intro. Opened RTA in REW while playing the clip. And they preformed admirably! For those who know, these peaks are from 30 down to 10 hz! This is [email protected] -35MV, but they managed -MV20 just fine. 










Granted this is with EQ and LS, but no noises or distorsion i could hear.

And for good measure, the Sono’s.










The Sono’s are turned up more than the JBL’s (farfield vs nearfield); but the curves was the issue here, not the dB’s.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Very nice!! I think your new JBL's nearfeild will serve you well and will be a lot of fun!!


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, so these ”little” JBL’s each have a displacement/swept volume of 1.33 liter. My SI18’s have 5.3 liter. 4x JBL = 5.3 liter.
So 4 JBL =1 SI18 

As luck would have it, i found more of these at half price of the 4 i already have. These are a”twin” version called GTX1200, but have the exact same spec. So i ordered 8 more ! So those 12x12” will equal 3x18”. That will work nearfield 

So my couch is a two seat recliner with a angled centersection, so not optimal for building a simple rectangular box, as the seat back is not in a fixed position. Her it is reclined and upright.










This is with my current box stood upright, so two stacked 12, as that is the height the new boxes will be. 

Either i will have to build rectangular boxes standing against the back wall, or build boxes with angled front baffle, possible two angles, to get as close to the seat back as possible in all reclined positions.

I will probably make 3 boxes, 4x12” in each in a 2x2 formation.


----------



## Mashie Saldana

You are nuts, can't wait to see the result.


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> *You are nuts*, can't wait to see the result.


Yup, and it’s ALL because of this forum It is a rabbit hole, for sure


----------



## vn800art

Can't believe it! Continued learning!


----------



## VideoGrabber

Mashie Saldana said:


> In your situation you could get away with just two SR7010's, set the first one to 9.1.2 and the second to 5.1.4+Zone2, assign the fronts to pre-outs. *Then get a simple Behringer stereo mixer, connect the front and rear height pre-outs to the mixer*, connect the summarised output to the Zone2 analog in.


I think I understand what you're doing with AVR1, using it's 9 amps to drive everything except the .2 (Top, doesn't matter how it's designated, since it will get all the Height content).

What I'm not following is why you need the Behringer mixer? Just take the .2 from the pre-out on AVR1, since that has exactly the mix you're trying to re-create with the Behringer from the FH + RH on AVR2.



> You now have 9.1.6 fully amplified with just two AVRs. Sure the top middle's aren't perfectly extracted but nor will they be *with PLII as all large overhead objects will become small* as all three speakers never can be engaged at once.


Do you feel that would be a common occurrence? That would only be the case if the 'large object' sound in FH and RH were coherent (in phase, at all frequencies). Is this comment based on observation, or theory?


----------



## Nalleh

Got some more stuff today :










These are the JBL GTX1200 i found for 51% off. Same spec as CS1214 and CX1200, just different dust cap.



















Also got a NU6K today, so this is the new upcoming nearfield package.










PS: already had the 4X CS1214, just had to have a pic of them all


----------



## Nalleh

So, my Samsung JU7005 UHD tv had developed a nasty clouding problem over the last months, so i contacted Samsung support, and ended upp getting a full refound for it. So today i got a new TV: Philips OLED 873 65 inch. And boy was it a upgrade, totally amazing picture, both upscaling and 4K. I guess you can say i did not have 4K or HDR until now, it’s that much of a difference. OLED really is in another legaue.


----------



## Mashie Saldana

Welcome to the club. I don't think you need to use that distracting bias light going forward. 

Oh the please of watching an OLED in a pitch black room...


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> Welcome to the club. I don't think you need to use that distracting bias light going forward.
> 
> Oh the please of watching an OLED in a pitch black room...


That is Philips’s exellent Ambilight  It is «active» as in it follows the colours that is on screen and works to extend the picture. That combined with the almost 3D like picture, because of how sharp it is, really makes it more immersive.


https://www.pocket-lint.com/tv/news...ned-why-you-need-to-light-up-your-living-room


----------



## Mashie Saldana

VideoGrabber said:


> I think I understand what you're doing with AVR1, using it's 9 amps to drive everything except the .2 (Top, doesn't matter how it's designated, since it will get all the Height content).


That is the case for Atmos, DTS:X is behaving a bit different as it will try and phantom the FH and RH positions.



VideoGrabber said:


> What I'm not following is why you need the Behringer mixer? Just take the .2 from the pre-out on AVR1, since that has exactly the mix you're trying to re-create with the Behringer from the FH + RH on AVR2.


That is a valid options, however TM will always play whatever is on either left or right side at same volume. If you use the Behringer you can set each mixed signal to be -3dB so only when TF = TR the TM will play full volume. If it makes much of a difference in the sound field, no idea, as I have not tested it.




VideoGrabber said:


> Do you feel that would be a common occurrence? That would only be the case if the 'large object' sound in FH and RH were coherent (in phase, at all frequencies). Is this comment based on observation, or theory?


THis is just theory. Can't test as I have not had the pleasure of using a system that can fully render 6 heights. However I'm kind of glad I did go down this route now when some mixes seems to ignore the TM rendering completely (yes I look at you Disney). If I want to have a wider spread of the objects across TF/TM/TR I could just use PLII Music mode instead, again not felt an urge to do this yet.


----------



## Mashie Saldana

Nalleh said:


> That is Philips’s exellent Ambilight  It is «active» as in it follows the colours that is on screen and works to extend the picture. That combined with the almost 3D like picture, because of how sharp it is, really makes it more immersive.
> 
> 
> https://www.pocket-lint.com/tv/news...ned-why-you-need-to-light-up-your-living-room


Can't you disable it, after all both active and static ambilight was invented for one reason, to hide the terrible black levels on LCD's. OLED looks even better when you can't tell where the picture end and the wall start. And yes no need for dedicated 3D mode now when the black levels makes everything looking 3D anyways. Take Avatar 2D for a spin, you will enjoy it, a lot.


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> Can't you disable it, after all both active and static ambilight was invented for one reason, to hide the terrible black levels on LCD's. OLED looks even better when you can't tell where the picture end and the wall start. And yes no need for dedicated 3D mode now when the black levels makes everything looking 3D anyways. Take Avatar 2D for a spin, you will enjoy it, a lot.


Sure, and for dedicated movie watching it might be better. But for daily daytime tv watching it works rather well, actually. But hey, i just got the tv so experimenting is going to happen 

Watched a bit of Altered Carbon on Netflix in 4K and while i tought i was good on the Samsung, it was jawdropping with the Philips. I can’t believe the difference !


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Philips should release a kit to go with any tv or projector setup and you can then map out how many leds are being uses per inch or whatever so that it know how to scale it and work with the hue system... would be easier than those diy solutions.


----------



## brazensol

We've discussed this in another thread but if you could help me one more time so I can make sure I get the most out of my hybrid system I'd appreciate it. My theater is wired for 9.x.6 so what is the most effective way to wire my Denon 6200W and 8500H?


----------



## Nalleh

brazensol said:


> We've discussed this in another thread but if you could help me one more time so I can make sure I get the most out of my hybrid system I'd appreciate it. My theater is wired for 9.x.6 so what is the most effective way to wire my Denon 6200W and 8500H?


Do what i do: i use the 7200 in a 9.1.2 setup(6200 in your case), and it plays 9.0.0. My 8500 is setup in a 7.1.6 setup, and plays 0.1.6 for a total of 9.1.6. As correct can be 

Use a HDMI cable from HDMI Zone2 out from the 8500 to any input on the 6200, and you’re good to go

Set the remote ID on the 8500 to ID2. You have to adjust volume seperate on both units, but its no big deal.


----------



## vn800art

AFAIK, Philips ambilight helps reducing eye fatigue. So test extensively with your sources! Enjoy!


----------



## Nalleh

Upgraded from the Mindsp 2x4 Bal to a 10x10HD today. More input/outputs, more eq, remote, better power etc.

So now i can do different setups, like if a movie has puny LFE  Or if i want a unaltered signal to the MA’s direct from the OPPO’s LFE.


----------



## SBuger

Woah Nalleh .....your on a role here with all this cool new stuff!!! YEAH!!


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, here we go again....quick mockup of the first box.


----------



## vn800art

Cheers! This is for how many of the loudspeakers? 
On a side note, in the first background that looks as my multipourpose garage. As per the far background that's where my nickname comes from: Kawasaki Vulcan 800






Kawasaki Vulcan 1600


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Each of the boxes are for 4xJBL 12". I have 12x JBL’s.

And it’s a Harley 

So, glue time :










This is not cnc machined by any means, but it’s kind of frustrating: no matter how accurate you measure, and my measurements ARE correct, double checked and triple checked, but after cutting, there is a millimeter wrong here and there. So not perfect, but once it’s all done, it will be mounted behing the seats, so it doesn’t matter, but after a bit of sanding and paint, it will be good enough


----------



## vn800art

Quote:
And it’s a Harley 
Unquote
I had no doubt about it!
Back to your audio project: so 4 in each box will be 2x2 in series to get 2x 8Ohm set x2? So each box will need one Inuke to be driven? Digital external processing (besides Audyssey) before going into the Inuke is requested/needed or could be avoided?
Another question: will you put some foam or anti resonance inside the box? What's the thickness of the board you are using?
Sorry, but .... the rabbit hole is enlarging under my feet!
Regards
Alessandro
Contextual Edit: I believe next question will be: what are the dimensions of the 6 pieces to build the box?


----------



## SBuger

Nice!! Those angled cabs for the behind the seats VNF's ought to be awesome. I wouldn't mind having angled cabs like that . Will make getting them closer easier. I do like'm close.


----------



## Nalleh

vn800art said:


> Quote:
> And it’s a Harley
> Unquote
> I had no doubt about it!
> Back to your audio project: so 4 in each box will be 2x2 in series to get 2x 8Ohm set x2? So each box will need one Inuke to be driven? Digital external processing (besides Audyssey) before going into the Inuke is requested/needed or could be avoided?
> Another question: will you put some foam or anti resonance inside the box? What's the thickness of the board you are using?
> Sorry, but .... the rabbit hole is enlarging under my feet!
> Regards
> Alessandro
> Contextual Edit: I believe next question will be: what are the dimensions of the 6 pieces to build the box?


They will be connected 6 in series/parallel for a total load of 6 ohms on each channel of the INUKE 6K. I have a MINDSP 2x4 Bal for LFE DSP. (Actually a 10x10HD now). I will put Polyfill pillows in the boxes. The MDF is 19mm x1220x2440mm i have used a bit over two MDF board for these 3 boxes.

The boxes are 650x650mm high and wide(almost the bare minimum for 4X12"), and 290mm deep on top with a 20˚ sloped front plate, making it 510mm deep in the bottom. It’s about 1.1 ft3 pr JBL.
And this is the «box program» i use:










Old school pen and papir, LOL.



SBuger said:


> Nice!! Those angled cabs for the behind the seats VNF's ought to be awesome. I wouldn't mind having angled cabs like that . Will make getting them closer easier. I do like'm close.


Yes, agreed, but it makes it a pain in the behing to build. You REALLY need to think twice, measure 3 times, and them go over your math again. Luckily my measurements was correct, but the circle saw was a bit tricky to get right. But it turned out ok.

Moving forward, more gluing.










Forst box done, and time for some routing of corners.










Some radiouses.










Ans some paint.



















Getting there. Box nr 2 finished gluing together tonight, and box nr 3 is 60 % glued.


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, finished painting box nr1.










Started painting box nr2.










And box nr3 is assembled, just routing and radiouses left, then paint.

Did some bracing with scrap pieces.










So tomorrow it’s time to start the finishing touches, terminals, stuffing, connnecting and mounting the drivers...

Starting to see an end to the project


----------



## vn800art

You are really quick in building! Chapeau!
Lots of sawdust!
Thanks for all the efforts and clearness in replying!
Alessandro


----------



## Mashie Saldana

Am I assuming correctly that you just used a jigsaw to cut the driver holes? That makes it a lot easier than using a router for hole cutting in MDF.


----------



## Nalleh

vn800art said:


> You are really quick in building! Chapeau!
> Lots of sawdust!
> Thanks for all the efforts and clearness in replying!
> Alessandro


Yes, it is like a assembly line over here, LOL.



Mashie Saldana said:


> Am I assuming correctly that you just used a jigsaw to cut the driver holes? That makes it a lot easier than using a router for hole cutting in MDF.


Correct. Much quicker and more than good enough. After all, once the driver is mounted, you won’t see the hole.

*Ok, 95% DONE!!*

The bracing is probably not the best possible, but it’s better than nothing.










So, on to cabling and stuffing.










And Voila: Shockwave 1  (nr 2 in the background)

I have not done any filling on these boxes, just routing corners and went over them with sanding paper, so there is blemishes and imperfections, but i think they turned out rather nice. More than good enough for behing the couch.










I love the way the drivers and the box has the same colour/sheen look. Very stealthy  (box nr 3 in background)










Nr 1 placed nearfield.










And reclined, close and nice.










TADA, Shockwave 2  These are the 4 CS1214 i had, so a bit different look.










This looks massive, but they fit very well behing there.










And this is 2 out of three boxes.










Madness.










Nr 3 is done painting tonight, so just assembling of that too tomorrow, and that’s it


----------



## SBuger

Now those are looking awesome, wow!!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Now those are looking awesome, wow!!


Thanks. This started with possible 2x SI18HT’s nearfield, but i think i outdid myself 

Tidbit: i couldn’t use the router to radious the front plate upper edge, as it has a 20 degree slope, so that radious was done manually with a belt sander and finish sander. Can’t tell the difference 
Also the bracing with radious on them was leftover from all the circles i cut when i made the sonos 

Recycling !

And i used about 6.5 lb with poly pillows in each box(4 pillows).


----------



## Nalleh

A quite evening out in the garage assembling a new speaker. It is really fun when everything is done, and it is just putting it together like a storebought item 










*SHOCKWAVE’s in da house *










Never mind the wires and mess, i just carried it into the house, and not all done yet.










12x12"










Reclined.










Is this sexy enough ?










Only connected the 4 behind the left(my) seat yet, but already noticing more TR. More «throaty» kind of. This is going to be fun getting it all setup


----------



## SBuger

That is a beautiful sight!!!!! Awesome work!!!!! Those things should pound you pretty good


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> That is a beautiful sight!!!!! Awesome work!!!!! Those things should pound you pretty good


Thanks  I got them all connected now, and first impression is they push just as much forward/backwards as the MA’s do up/down, LOL ! Pretty insane 

I’ll see if i can get a REW session done tomorrow, to see how the curve looks.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Thanks  I got them all connected now, and first impression is they push just as much forward/backwards as the MA’s do up/down, LOL ! Pretty insane
> 
> I’ll see if i can get a REW session done tomorrow, to see how the curve looks.


Nice!! yep, some firepower close enough behind you can move you just as much or more than the MA's


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, that’s it. I’m done. No more. No more upgrades. ... no mas... is it ok to say i’m scared?

This new addition to the LFE is so overkill, i have probably turned it down 30dB from 50hz and up!
I had to use all the Minidsp had to rein in the curve, LOL, but it turned out ok. A pic of them all:










Left sono, right sono and the JBL’s now all have about the same curve.

When playing "suck my bass", i swear the door frame leading to the outdoor deck over 20 feet away was moving 1 INCH ! Holy canoly....

Here is a video of the "wall" in action. Not full tilt, just to get them moving


----------



## SBuger

^^^ WOW!!! I'm so impressed with those subs you built and your graphs! Fantastic job bro, seriously!!

Those graphs - doesn't get any better than that. Scary and beautiful all at the same time  I'm sure it sounds and feels just as Scary and Beautiful! Awesome extension too! 

That's amazing that all your subs have that good of response on there own, and then of course combine very well to boot. I must say, I'm a bit jealous of that  My overall FR for Bass is really good with subs combined, but each sub on there own is not quite as good in my room. My VNFs are the most important to me and I have a dip in the 30hz area that cant be totally corrected, and has to be made up/filled in with my other subs (mainly the front sub), so I loose a bit of slam in this area. Not TR (in fact I've probably got too much 30hz TR), but I'm talking about slam from sound pressure waves and is not quite what it needs to be in the 30hz area from the null/dip with the VNFs (nulls/dips suck, even on VNF's). It's still decent, but could be better. I'm hoping some bass trapping in the corners may help round out my square room a little and help with this somewhat. I'll experiment with that one of these days. 

Anyways, sorry this is about YOU, not me hahaha! Those subs look so bad ass behind your seating! I cant imagine the 18's you were thinking about having anything on these bad boys. Plus these look SO much cooler!!! 

Nice vid BTW!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ WOW!!! I'm so impressed with those subs you built and your graphs! Fantastic job bro, seriously!!
> 
> Those graphs - doesn't get any better than that. Scary and beautiful all at the same time  I'm sure it sounds and feels just as Scary and Beautiful! Awesome extension too!
> 
> That's amazing that all your subs have that good of response on there own, and then of course combine very well to boot. I must say, I'm a bit jealous of that  My overall FR for Bass is really good with subs combined, but each sub on there own is not quite as good in my room. My VNFs are the most important to me and I have a dip in the 30hz area that cant be totally corrected, and has to be made up/filled in with my other subs (mainly the front sub), so I loose a bit of slam in this area. Not TR (in fact I've probably got too much 30hz TR), but I'm talking about slam from sound pressure waves and is not quite what it needs to be in the 30hz area from the null/dip with the VNFs (nulls/dips suck, even on VNF's). It's still decent, but could be better. I'm hoping some bass trapping in the corners may help round out my square room a little and help with this somewhat. I'll experiment with that one of these days.
> 
> Anyways, sorry this is about YOU, not me hahaha! Those subs look so bad ass behind your seating! I cant imagine the 18's you were thinking about having anything on these bad boys. Plus these look SO much cooler!!!
> 
> Nice vid BTW!


Thanks man 
Well, don’t let the "after" curves fool you: my curves before eq look like shait too, with extreme peaks and dips. I have shown this before with both the sonos and 4 of the JBL’s. I have a horrible room for good FR too  But it is amazing what you can do with a Minidsp. Only thing i am a little unsure of, is how all this is when you look at phase, time domain, waterfall etc. I am not so well educated in those fields.

But yes, these little JBL suckers truly are amazing value for money. And altough it was a lot of work with these angled boxes, i am(now) glad i did it. But i am in no way tapping into these yet, LOL. If i didn’t eq them down as much up in the "punch area", they would rip you a new one, LOL.

I’ll see if i get to watch a movie to night


----------



## Mashie Saldana

I wonder how those 4 x 12" subs would work as far field? Something like that located on my side wall midpoints would be great from a space point of view and hopefully from a room mode point of view as well. Did you end up running 6 of these on each amp channel?


----------



## Nalleh

Sure, they would do great. As i said before, 4 of these equal one SI18 or UM18, only they have more capacity above say 50 hz.

Yes, with these 12, i have 6 on each channel on the NU6K. 3x4 ohm in series for 12 ohm, and then two of those 12 ohms in parallel for 6 ohm.
With 4 you could do 2 in series for 8 ohm on each channel for 500W pr driver(what i did when i used 4), or connect those two 8 ohm in parallel again for a 4ohm load on ONE channel, 500W pr driver.


----------



## Nalleh

A collage showing my nearfield journey, from "puny" to "GOD", LOL.










And a bit more NF porn


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Thanks man
> Well, don’t let the "after" curves fool you: my curves before eq look like shait too, with extreme peaks and dips. I have shown this before with both the sonos and 4 of the JBL’s. I have a horrible room for good FR too  But it is amazing what you can do with a Minidsp. Only thing i am a little unsure of, is how all this is when you look at phase, time domain, waterfall etc. I am not so well educated in those fields.
> 
> But yes, these little JBL suckers truly are amazing value for money. And altough it was a lot of work with these angled boxes, i am(now) glad i did it. But i am in no way tapping into these yet, LOL. If i didn’t eq them down as much up in the "punch area", they would rip you a new one, LOL.
> I’ll see if i get to watch a movie to night


Well you did a hell of a job then getting them all to look like that!  . Yeah I hear you on the phase, time domain, etc as I could probably use a little more knowledge in these areas as well. But I guess as long as it sounds good to us and we get the FR we want all is good right!? 



Nalleh said:


> A collage showing my nearfield journey, from "puny" to "GOD", LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And a bit more NF porn


Awesome Collage!! Love it!! Quite a nice progression I'd say


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Well you did a hell of a job then getting them all to look like that!  . Yeah I hear you on the phase, time domain, etc as I could probably use a little more knowledge in these areas as well. But I guess as long as it sounds good to us and we get the FR we want all is good right!?
> 
> Awesome Collage!! Love it!! Quite a nice progression I'd say


Thanks. Well, as you i don’t have any basstraps or things like that, only room treatments are the acoustic panel, furniture and thick carpet, and non of those help the in the LFE department. And as you know, LFE is more than just FR. Problem with not knowing how to optimize those things are you think all is good, when you can have horrible room nodes, bad time domain, ringing, etc, because you don’t know any better.

Let me put it this way: i am pretty sure if Mark Seaton or someone like that came over to optimize our setup, i think we could REALLY be in for some serious jaw-dropping 

But hey, i am happy with how it sounds now, so thumbs up


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Thanks. Well, as you i don’t have any basstraps or things like that, only room treatments are the acoustic panel, furniture and thick carpet, and non of those help the in the LFE department. And as you know, LFE is more than just FR. Problem with not knowing how to optimize those things are you think all is good, when you can have horrible room nodes, bad time domain, ringing, etc, because you don’t know any better.
> 
> Let me put it this way: i am pretty sure if Mark Seaton or someone like that came over to optimize our setup, i think we could REALLY be in for some serious jaw-dropping
> 
> But hey, i am happy with how it sounds now, so thumbs up


So true about LFE being more than just a good FR. It amazes me sometimes how you can have nearly an identical looking FR but feel and sound a fair amount different from one another with different positioning with multiple subs and timing, etc. I'm looking into some bass traps right now. Will be interesting to see what kind of a difference they can make in my room.


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, a whole day of tweaking/ reconfiguring 

First of all, i found a new way of getting a flat LFE signal while still using Audyssey with the app: after the calib and usual changes, set filter frequency range for the subwoofer to minimum, or 20hz. This leaves the LFE channel untouched and sends a flat signal to the Crowsons. I must EQ the subs manually afterwards, but i do that anyway, so this was a cool discovery.

Set to 40hz in pic to easier show the curve.










So the LFE signal looks like this with and without Audyssey.










Remember earlier i showed a video of Lone Survivor chopper scene, where the 6.5hz chopper blades managed 106dB with the two Sonos? Well, the 12x12" JBL’ manged a whopping 105dB alone! With just one NU6K, i was mighty impressed with that, and with all subs running i now manage 115 dB at 6.5hz! A very nice improvement, i would say 











And a comp sweep with just the JBL’s. Pretty much reference down to 10 hz.










And finally i did a complete reconfiguring to the «old» setup 13.1.8.

So the 8500 is now setup with 15 speakers for a 9.1.4 Atmos/13.1 Auro config, while the 7200 is setup with 5.1.4+wides config for a total of 13.1.8 Atmos count.

However i managed to also incorporate a matrixed center height, with input from both the 7200 Center output and the 8500 Center Height output by connecting both to the zone2 on my Yamaha AVR, and then setting it to MONO. So i have both dialog lift and true Center Height.

And by using the same monoizing trick i sent both the 8500 wide signal and the 7200 front signal(lowered 3dB) trough the Minidsp 10x10HD and used it to mix the two signals to the wide output, which the Yamaha’s zone3 powers. So i have a matrixed wide/front signal sent to the wide speakers. This makes the wides more active and widens the soundfield.











All of this worked perfect, and my «Franken-Atmos» really works, the double setup on top of each other truly expands on the sound image, and makes it a more immmersive experience.

Now to watch some movies... i have Matrix lined up 

And i reprogrammed the Logitech Ultimate to these new settings, and i now use «zone 2 (and3)» versions of the AVR’s to more correct switch between activities. So it is now ALL done by remote. Awsome


----------



## Nalleh

Updated the diagrams of the new setups.










And the LFE.


----------



## SBuger

Holy Hell, Man!! Freaking Awesome!!

A whole day of tweaking, and what at day it looks like!  Very, very nice to say the least. Can only image how amazing your system must sound and feel with that crazy insane multi speaker Atmos setup, plus the new VNFs to boot! Looks like you've got plenty of SPL there too when you want it, Nice! 

Fantastic job bro!!!!!! Should give an even more mind blowing experience now!!


----------



## Nalleh

Yeah, it is fun to tweak, and espesially when you get good results 

I have a saved file for the Minidsp with a pre-eq’ed setup, with correct levels and just one sonos that i load before running Audyssey, and then when that is finished, i reload my «normal» file to the Minidsp that has all my special tweaks in it. 

And since the 8500 now runs a full 9.1.4 alone, i can test on the fly between that and the full 13.1.8 by muting and unmuting the 7200. So instant change between 9.1.4 and 13.1.8. And it is easy to hear how much difference it is.

It was @maikeldepotter who came up with several of these ideas for expanding the Atmos, and this latest "matrixed wides" setup was very cool actually. Looking forward to test it out more


----------



## Mashie Saldana

So you gave up on having 6 heights properly rendered in the end?


----------



## Nalleh

Mashie Saldana said:


> So you gave up on having 6 heights properly rendered in the end?


Well, i am testing it out now. Have had the 6 heights for a while now, so can compare to my «bastard» setup.

When i got the 8500 it was always my plan to compare proper 9.1.6 to Franken-SWAtmos 13.1.8.

What really bugs me is that the 8500 can not be setup as 5.1.6 with wides. That way i would have been able to run 13.1.6 with my two AVR’s.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> *Yeah, it is fun to tweak, and espesially when you get good results
> *
> I have a saved file for the Minidsp with a pre-eq’ed setup, with correct levels and just one sonos that i load before running Audyssey, and then when that is finished, i reload my «normal» file to the Minidsp that has all my special tweaks in it.
> 
> And since the 8500 now runs a full 9.1.4 alone, i can test on the fly between that and the full 13.1.8 by muting and unmuting the 7200. So instant change between 9.1.4 and 13.1.8. And it is easy to hear how much difference it is.
> 
> It was @maikeldepotter who came up with several of these ideas for expanding the Atmos, and this latest "matrixed wides" setup was very cool actually. Looking forward to test it out more


Ya know, it really is fun to tweak. And like you say, especially when you get the results your after. Sometimes I think I’m just as addicted to that part of it as I am actually enjoying the theater, whether it be watching a movie or demo time. Keeps it fun and mixed up a bit trying to see just how good you can get it, and push things to the limit for that extra extraordinary experience that I think we are all ultimately after (or at least for some of us obsessive HT and Bass junkies )

Sounds like you got it down with the mini pre-eq and post. Nice. 

That’s pretty darn cool that you can switch back and forth like that between your two configs to compare. I think you might just have all ‘holes’ covered with the 13.1.8


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Yeah, the tweaking subject can be a blessing AND a curse, LOL.

When you watch a movie after a tweak session you could be like: maaan, this was fun, so happy with how it sounds/looks right now.

And then, other times you sit there watching a movie, thinking: hmm, could i get that aspect better if i do this/that. Or: what if i switched this one with that one. Or: am i tapping into that item fully?

That thought might end up in another tweaking session, or even buying/making new items.

My brother just shakes his head each time i bring in a new item, and i have never seen him roll his eyes over as much as lately when i got 12 !!! new subwoofers, LOOL. «Jeesus, are you nuts? Where in the world are you going to put them?»

«Behind the couch» i replied. He just shook his head again, LOL.

But guess what, i see him smiling when we watch a movie now, when a cool LFE effect is sounding 

But it is madness for sure


----------



## vn800art

You must be proud of that!
I say this, because there is also the DIY part, not simple buy and push the button! And I always look for the alternative use of this and that!
Chapeau!
Regards
Alessandro


----------



## Nalleh

Yes, it is always rewarding when it turns out (maybe even better) like you planned. Both when i started the sonos project, and lately this nearfield project, my brother had no faith at all, and did not «see» what i imagined while i worked on it. But when the project was done, he was really impressed, both with how it looked and how it performed and improved the experience, and he doesn’t impress easily, so that’s always fun

Also when buddies come over and i demo the setup, it is fun to see the way the react to it all, the picture, Atmos, LFE, the Crowsons etc.

The first thing they notice is the «Barrels», LOL. Not to long ago we had a inspection of the eletrical system in the house, and guy who did the inspection just dropped his jaw when he saw the Sonos, LOL.

Fun times


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Yeah, the tweaking subject can be a blessing AND a curse, LOL.
> 
> When you watch a movie after a tweak session you could be like: maaan, this was fun, so happy with how it sounds/looks right now.
> 
> And then, other times you sit there watching a movie, thinking: hmm, could i get that aspect better if i do this/that. Or: what if i switched this one with that one. Or: am i tapping into that item fully?
> 
> That thought might end up in another tweaking session, or even buying/making new items.
> 
> My brother just shakes his head each time i bring in a new item, and i have never seen him roll his eyes over as much as lately when i got 12 !!! new subwoofers, LOOL. «Jeesus, are you nuts? Where in the world are you going to put them?»
> 
> «Behind the couch» i replied. He just shook his head again, LOL.
> 
> But guess what, i see him smiling when we watch a movie now, when a cool LFE effect is sounding
> 
> But it is madness for sure





Nalleh said:


> Yes, it is always rewarding when it turns out (maybe even better) like you planned. Both when i started the sonos project, and lately this nearfield project, my brother had no faith at all, and did not «see» what i imagined while i worked on it. But when the project was done, he was really impressed, both with how it looked and how it performed and improved the experience, and he doesn’t impress easily, so that’s always fun
> 
> Also when buddies come over and i demo the setup, it is fun to see the way the react to it all, the picture, Atmos, LFE, the Crowsons etc.
> 
> The first thing they notice is the «Barrels», LOL. Not to long ago we had a inspection of the eletrical system in the house, and guy who did the inspection just dropped his jaw when he saw the Sonos, LOL.
> 
> Fun times


You summed that up nicely about the tweaking and hit the nail right on the head 
That’s pretty funny about your brother, but glad he is now a ‘Believer’. Which reminds me of a song that a dude in ‘Norway’ did as a Metal Cover song. Cool song that gets stuck in my head. It’s funny, my 7-year-old daughter loves it too and goes around singing it and does a pretty darn good job of it hahahha

Don’t know what kind of music you like (I like all kinds but I’m primarily a metal head), but here’s that song down below. He does some awesome covers IMO and is pretty darn entertaining (super talented dude). If you’re into metal at all, you might like some of his stuff and get a kick out of this guy. Plus he’s from Norway, which I thought was cool, just like my bro “Nalleh” !!! 

This guy is pretty bad ass and kind of makes me think of you, except in the Home Theater world, instead of the music making world. Are all dudes from Norway this cool!!?? Hahahaha  

Believer





And who would have thought a Beyonce song turned into metal could be this cool LOL - Halo (bad ass melodic rhythms and some great singing - I love this guys growls/screams)


----------



## Nalleh

Oh, i’m sure the guy is talented, but i am sorry to say i am soo not a metal guy, LOL. No offense, but to me it all sounds like noise, haha. I listen to a lot of different music too, but i guess you could say more pop music’ish.

But i do not listen THAT much to music. Since i do not sit in the middle for proper stereo, the point of listening is kind of lost.

And yes, all Norwegians are cool!


----------



## SBuger

LOL no offense taken ..its all good man!  Good to hear that all Norwegians are cool though, even if they don't all like metal haha!


----------



## SBuger

Ok got my highlights blown under control on the 203 I think with my 1080p projector, but now dim AF is some areas and black crush is no good. I'm starting to wonder about all this, its supposed to be fun right

Edit: oops forgot that I need to update the firmware. Looks like there are some new hdr to sdr modes, hopefully this will help. Pretty crazy, I was doing my video comparisons on GOTG2 from the 4k disc to the standard blu. In the process I found that the mixes are a fair amount different from the atmos compared to the dts-ma 7.1. In this case I preferred the dts-ma track WAY more surprisingly. Bass hits quite a bit harder, even with sub level boosts on the atmos track and actually preferred the surrounds as well. Crazy how the mix can be so different on the same movie.


----------



## Nalleh

LOL, yes it is one step forward and two steps backwards again 
It sounds like you are more knowledgable in the picture department than me, but since i did not have the 203 while i had a 1080P tv/projector, i did not encounter such problem. Custom gamma curves, HDR>SDR conversion, tone mapping curves yes, as our projector do not have enough nits for proper HDR. But i seemed to arrive at a good place now with the 203 tone mapping feature. 

Yes, the sound can be different from BD to UHD. Atmos isn’t necessery better in every aspect. Some people even prefer to use upmixers instead of native Atmos or DTS:X, LOL. But hey: the upmixers often use more of the overhead speakers, at the cost of precision, so it all depends on what floats your boat


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> LOL, yes it is one step forward and two steps backwards again
> It sounds like you are more knowledgable in the picture department than me, but since i did not have the 203 while i had a 1080P tv/projector, i did not encounter such problem. Custom gamma curves, HDR>SDR conversion, tone mapping curves yes, as our projector do not have enough nits for proper HDR. But i seemed to arrive at a good place now with the 203 tone mapping feature.
> 
> Yes, the sound can be different from BD to UHD. Atmos isn’t necessery better in every aspect. Some people even prefer to use upmixers instead of native Atmos or DTS:X, LOL. But hey: the upmixers often use more of the overhead speakers, at the cost of precision, so it all depends on what floats your boat


Ah heck no, not even in the picture department am I more knowledgeable than you lol. The latest firmware upgrade helped me A LOT though, plus a brightness bump of +3 in the picture settings on the 203. With update, mode 2 (there are four HDR>>SDR conversion modes) + the Brightness +3 bump gets me right where I wanna be I think with the 4K video on my 1080p PJ, which makes me very, very happy (I was getting quite frustrated there for a bit). Might even be just a bit better now in some ways than SDR from the standard Blue. Now if I could just get that damn Blue Screen of ‘HDMI No Signal’ to stop happening periodically I should be good with the 203!

LOL, so I don’t know what I was smoking yesterday, but later last night I thought the Atmos track had the overall edge vs the the dts-ma track on GOGT2, even bass. Man, I think I’m losing my mind sometimes with all this stuff. I must have had a setting wrong or something with all my messing yesterday testing all the video, IDK. GOGT2 is VERY good!  Also checked out Gladiator and Serenity last night. Fantastic DTS:X MSTR tracks


----------



## Nalleh

Haha, well done  Awsome to hear you figured it out. It sounds like you need to learn some relaxing techniques for when you have these struggles, you know like "Aaaaaoooooohmmmmm-Aaaaaoooohmmm", LOL. It seem to work out if you just stick with it 

But i understand your frustrasion, as it can feel pretty hopeless when your in the middle of it 

Also, regarding the HDMI no signal issue, i guess you are aware of the sequence your gear is powered on, might give such problem. I believe it is suppposed to be "sink-to-source", ie. turn on the display first, wait a few seconds, then AVR, wait, then your player.

Nice about the DTS:X tracks, i have both, just haven’t seen them yet


----------



## SBuger

^^^ LMAO, now that’s funny and so true, I do need to learn some relaxing techniques when I have these struggles  I know I can usually get’m all worked out if I stick with it, but recently with all the new changes (and still more coming), I think my patience is not what it usually is and I get quick to frustration a lot easier than normal. It’s very exciting with the new changes, but kind of stressful sometimes too. I think I care about all this HT stuff too much sometimes LOL. That said, most of the time it brings me a whole lot of joy though!

Funny you should mention the sequence of power on of gear, as I was just kind of thinking of that. Part of the problem is that the 203 is buggy with MKV files, as was the 103 (although not quite as bad). On the 103, if I play an MKV file with DTS first, then I have to restart the Oppo to get sound from a Dolby MKV file when played next, but not the other way around. On the 203 it’s effected this way with both, doesn’t matter which one is first played, if that makes sense and has to be restarted either way. But with the 203, when I restart the oppo, this is when I usually get the ‘HDMI No Signal” and blue screen. Most of the time if I restart the PJ too, its fine until it happens again. 

With the 103, it was a minor issue because it doesn’t take long to restart the Oppo, plus I never got the ‘HDMI No Signal’ problem (at least it was VERY seldom). Not so with 203 and is making life difficult because I love having most of my movies ripped to MKV for reasons I’ve talked about before. Hopefully they’ll fix this MKV sound bug issue in a future firmware release on the 203. I’m gonna try to write them the about it, but who knows if it’ll make much difference since they are fixing to be no longer (although supposedly they they will still have support and firmware updates). Worth a try though I guess.

But the ‘HDMI No Sig’ thing may be something other than this affecting it too on the 203, as sometimes it’ll happen with not even messing with my MKV’s. Maybe it’s mainly an HDCP2.2 problem like you mentioned, so I went ahead and ordered a new cable from Monoprice that supposedly fixes a lot of the HDCP 2.2 compatibility issues that they said may be affected by the one that I am using (also one of theirs from Monoprice). So, we’ll see if this fixes it or at least helps …fingers crossed!!


----------



## Nalleh

^^^Ok, the MKV related problems keep popping up in the 203 thread too, so maybe you can find some help there.

I often had HDMI problems earlier with the UB900 and the JVC X500, but that was probably because the X500 was not HDCP 2.2 compliant. I used a HDFURY inbetween them, so it did work, but sometimes looong sync times and sometimes no go 

But probably the biggest contributor to HDMI problems with these UHD sources are the HDMI cables. It is truly a nightmare as even cables that are SUPPOSED to work, actually don’t ! There is threads about it in the HDMI section where a lot of supposedly correct cables turn out to not work. With 1080P it SHOULDN’T be a problem, but with HDCP 2.2, all bets are off ! And the longer the cable, the more trouble, LOL. Actually really short cables are troublesome too, as in under 2 feet, so it is truly a miracle that this piece of sheit standard has been approved 

Anyway, let us know if new cables solves it


----------



## Nalleh

Video of the 12"s playing Lone Survivor 105dB @6.5Hz.


----------



## Nalleh

Hah, the system had more left in the tank  Again from Lone Survivor.
I turned up the JBL’s a bit more, as they clearly had more to give. Even without the Crowsons, the JBL’s manage to shake the couch, LOL. It’s awsome.










And lately i have watched Matrix and Fury on UHD, INSANE Atmos tracks on both! I was exhausted after each tank battle in Fury, LOL. Never had that happen before, it was sooo immersive.


----------



## vn800art

Listen, I know I couldn't (and I would never want) to compete, but I am really interested in the nearfield build (in my room maybe I could manage to install 2 x 4 set). This is because I could think of it as an alternative to buying a new 15' subwoofer ( I have 2 Cornwalls as fronts ). The actual Sw can't cope with Cornwalls woofers (I think I could easily relocate it in another room with a stereo setup). I wouldn't want to make it too complicate with Dirac bass management or any other hardware add ( more than the needed Inuke amplifier, obviously ). So I wuold only use Audyssey to tune them.
What do You think?
TIA!
Really pushing arguments, here!
Regards
Alessandro


----------



## Mashie Saldana

I watched Matrix over the weekend, what a brilliant Atmos track with lots of wides and heights activity. The HDR was perfect. 

I will watch Fury tonight or tomorrow, I liked the 5.1 track so can't wait for the Atmos.


----------



## vn800art

I have seen Fury 3 times, one completely in the living room (Pana 47AS800, associated Pana soundbar - best 1080 tv still not giving up), other two jumping around in the theater checking Atmos/Auro3D, streaming versus BRdisk!


----------



## Nalleh

vn800art said:


> Listen, I know I couldn't (and I would never want) to compete, but I am really interested in the nearfield build (in my room maybe I could manage to install 2 x 4 set). This is because I could think of it as an alternative to buying a new 15' subwoofer ( I have 2 Cornwalls as fronts ). The actual Sw can't cope with Cornwalls woofers (I think I could easily relocate it in another room with a stereo setup). I wouldn't want to make it too complicate with Dirac bass management or any other hardware add ( more than the needed Inuke amplifier, obviously ). So I wuold only use Audyssey to tune them.
> What do You think?
> TIA!
> Really pushing arguments, here!
> Regards
> Alessandro


Sure, go for it  As cheap AND good as these JBL’s are, it is a no brainer. With 4 or more, you have all the TR you need. I would say buy as many as you have room for or can afford(your suggested 8 is PLENTY), and a inuke to power it: done !
Just be aware that nearfield, altough can go deep, does not have the same room gain as farfield. So they will sound a bit «thinner» way down low. Even though my far and nearfields have the same FR curve, if i mute my farfields, there is something missing down low. So a DSP of some kind is advisable, for example the DSP version of the Inuke. With that, you can give them some low shelf boost, while bringing down the peaky top FR.



Mashie Saldana said:


> I watched Matrix over the weekend, what a brilliant Atmos track with lots of wides and heights activity. The HDR was perfect.
> 
> I will watch Fury tonight or tomorrow, I liked the 5.1 track so can't wait for the Atmos.


Agreed! Matrix was a extremely good re-release in UHD and Atmos. I WISH they all could be this goood, because i had a blast watching it again. And Fury had exellent picture too, a big upgrade from BD. You are in for a treat 

It was also fun to compare my 9.1.4 to 13.1.8 on the fly, i just muted the 7200, and had 9.1.4. Unmute call all 13.1.8 to action. It really widens the soundstage in all direction, i just sat there smiling


----------



## Mashie Saldana

Nalleh said:


> Agreed! Matrix was a extremely good re-release in UHD and Atmos. I WISH they all could be this goood, because i had a blast watching it again. And Fury had exellent picture too, a big upgrade from BD. You are in for a treat


Fury was indeed a treat to watch.

It is worrying that remixed films seems to be better than native Atmos UHD releases. Dredd and The 5th Element were the first ones and the trend now continues with Matrix and Fury.


----------



## Nalleh

Agreed. With so many mediocre Atmos releases since the start, i do not understand the point of doing a bad Atmos mix. Both Atmos and DTS:X can be mindboggling good, still there are a LOT of "meeeh" releases.

It is almost as if the don’t know how to use it....

And as you say, even a catalog re-release can be awsome.


----------



## vn800art

Hello! I have tryed to find some Jbls at reasonable price, but found only 1 distributor in Germany asking too much for my likings. Found some alternative Kenwoods (maybe flimsy terminals ?) always 12 and same Fs at 28hz! But I cannot tell about all the other parameters on the spec sheet! I posted on the relevant thread for the Jbl's in the DiY section, but can't get a reply on the subject. Some hints? Here in Italy we have only Ciare who is doing this type of speakers. More than 100 € each!
Forgot, even the new tweeters drivers I bought back from Bob Crites for the Cornwalls were from an Italian firm, but I don't think they are so cheap at all!
Regards
Alessandro
Edit: Nevermind, somebody replied yet, looks like no dice comparing the two cones specs!


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Yeah, sorry can’t help you there. I just got lucky finding them at the price i did. Don’t know much about how to calculate driver specs either, but did notice that the xmax was only 4mm on the Kenwood you mentioned. Not good.


----------



## vn800art

So, I will keep You on charge for this (), I just pulled the trigger for four of CS2014. Summer play!
Full of ideas and questions, tbd. Will update when ordered them.
Reason is the impelling Usa/Europe war on custom fees. When they will reorder .... and the availability was diminishing rapidly. German ebay seller.
Edit Here are some new arrivals:


----------



## brazensol

Any reason to not use all 4 sub outputs on the two receivers?


----------



## Nalleh

brazensol said:


> Any reason to not use all 4 sub outputs on the two receivers?


No reason. You can do that if you want 

I use the 2 sub outs from the 8500 to be able to have seperate level/ delay control between the subs(sub 1 out) and the JBL NF’s(sub2out) from the remote, but i use a Minidsp 10x10HD to EQ each sub anyway, so no need for more than that(for me).


----------



## brazensol

Cool!  Also does it make a difference which receiver is the "alpha"?


----------



## Nalleh

brazensol said:


> Cool!  Also does it make a difference which receiver is the "alpha"?


If you use the ZONE2 HDMI out, basically no. The signal is just copied and sent on to the next one, so each receives exactly the same content.

And in a dedicated movie room, it doesn’t matter at all, as everything is on/active during use. In my case beeing in a living room, i only use the 8500 in daily use, so that is the main AVR in my setup. And then come movie time, everything is turned on for full effect 

In other news, nothing big to report lately, just enjoying the setup as it works awesome now. So impressed with the sound i have managed to get now, it all just simply works! Movies, Music, LFE, ULF, UHD, Blurays, 3D, Atmos, Auro 3D, DTS:X, even daily TV shows just bring a smile to my face. Totally insane that you can get this performance in a «all in one» living room setup 


Have looked a bit in the FP14000 clone threads lately, as a possible upgrade for the amps, but it’s probably overkill, LOL.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> If you use the ZONE2 HDMI out, basically no. The signal is just copied and sent on to the next one, so each receives exactly the same content.
> 
> And in a dedicated movie room, it doesn’t matter at all, as everything is on/active during use. In my case beeing in a living room, i only use the 8500 in daily use, so that is the main AVR in my setup. And then come movie time, everything is turned on for full effect
> 
> *In other news, nothing big to report lately, just enjoying the setup as it works awesome now. So impressed with the sound i have managed to get now, it all just simply works! Movies, Music, LFE, ULF, UHD, Blurays, 3D, Atmos, Auro 3D, DTS:X, even daily TV shows just bring a smile to my face. Totally insane that you can get this performance in a «all in one» living room setup
> *
> 
> Have looked a bit in the FP14000 clone threads lately, as a possible upgrade for the amps, but it’s probably overkill, LOL.


Awesome!! Glad to hear your enjoying that insane system so much, my friend!!  Yep very, very cool that you can achieve this in your living room!!


----------



## sirjaymz

So @Nalleh, do you have to repatch plaster or drywall at anytime? 

The reason I'm asking, a BIL of mine says his brother had only 2x 12" subs in his house, and he split his plaster, which is possible, or just poor building.. 
Now hearing this story, my wife now thinks this could and will happen to our house, built in 2014.


Of course my WAF for me in getting additional sub's is at an all time low. 


So what kind of repairs have you had to do to the house with adding the Sono's and now the nearfield, if any?


----------



## Nalleh

sirjaymz said:


> So @Nalleh, do you have to repatch plaster or drywall at anytime?
> 
> The reason I'm asking, a BIL of mine says his brother had only 2x 12" subs in his house, and he split his plaster, which is possible, or just poor building..
> Now hearing this story, my wife now thinks this could and will happen to our house, built in 2014.
> 
> 
> Of course my WAF for me in getting additional sub's is at an all time low.
> 
> 
> So what kind of repairs have you had to do to the house with adding the Sono's and now the nearfield, if any?


None, so far 

Several reasons.
I have a pretty large room to pressurize, my HT is in my living room. The HT part is ~1800cf with a open left wall to another ~1500cf and then a open doorway to the kitchen, so prabably more than 4000cf.

And i have MDF interior wall panels. These are 600mm wide by 2380mm high and 8mm thick, so no plaster.

That beeing said, i see doors, windows and wall move alarmingly much then i play loud. So who knows how long before damage happens, LOL.


----------



## brazensol

Just crank it up 'til the walls start to crack and then turn it down -1.


----------



## brazensol

I have two rows of seating and each row has it's own surround left/right speaker. Can I use the l/r surround outputs from both receivers or should I only use one receiver with some type of splitter?


----------



## VideoGrabber

Nalleh said:


> What really bugs me is that the 8500 can not be setup as 5.1.6 with wides.


I share your disappointment.

I don't understand the artificial limitations, on a product that costs so much? And their flagship, no less!


----------



## Mashie Saldana

VideoGrabber said:


> I share your disappointment.
> 
> I don't understand the artificial limitations, on a product that costs so much? And their flagship, no less!


To be fair 5.1.6 without wides is not available on any of the 7.1.4 capable processors.


----------



## maikeldepotter

VideoGrabber said:


> I share your disappointment.
> 
> I don't understand the artificial limitations, on a product that costs so much? And their flagship, no less!


Even the 32-channel Trinnov Altitude processor is limited to 11 main DTS:X channels. 
It _can_ do much more (I believe 30 main channels has already been demonstrated in the past), but that's still not _allowed _by DTS.


----------



## Nalleh

brazensol said:


> I have two rows of seating and each row has it's own surround left/right speaker. Can I use the l/r surround outputs from both receivers or should I only use one receiver with some type of splitter?


Yes, you can use surround outputs from the second avr. If your second avr is setup with 5.x.x, then the side surround channels contains both side surround and surround back content. So if you place those speakers in row 2, between the side surrounds and back surround from the first avr, they will fill out with a nice mix of those two sets of channels.

That is what i do.


----------



## sirjaymz

@Nalleh
So by having the 10x10HD, I noticed you have a mix of the NU-6000 and NU-6000DSP's ... 
Do you use any part of the Behringer DSP's in those amps?, or are they just in 'direct' mode, and all processing done in the 10x10HD for all subs?


----------



## Nalleh

sirjaymz said:


> @Nalleh
> So by having the 10x10HD, I noticed you have a mix of the NU-6000 and NU-6000DSP's ...
> Do you use any part of the Behringer DSP's in those amps?, or are they just in 'direct' mode, and all processing done in the 10x10HD for all subs?


Actually both 

I have the two NU6K DSP on the two sonosubs in the front. On these i use the NU DSP’s to flatten the curve, and use the Minidsp only to shape the curve, aka room curve.
On the Crowsons and the NF JBL’s i use the non-DSP models, and use the Minidsp to EQ and shape the curve.

But basically i don’t matter, you can use it however you want, they have the same functions.


----------



## stikle

Nalleh said:


> Third, for the zone2 input you need to download the Denon remote app to your mobile phone. Open the app, connect to your 6200 and go to «zones». Under input in zone2, choose «source». This way it will always follow the main zone input.



Ok Nalle the Frankenmaster, I have a problem.

I've got everything wired up in the new theater, and my dual Atmos setup is working...provided I manually change the 6200 Z2 to either Source or the actual source being used.

When I do it in the Denon app, the setting does not save! Power off, power on, and Z2 is reset to the first input (CBL/SAT). I swear it used to work in my old house and follow the Z1 source.

Thoughts?


----------



## sirjaymz

stikle said:


> Ok Nalle the Frankenmaster, I have a problem.
> 
> I've got everything wired up in the new theater, and my dual Atmos setup is working...provided I manually change the 6200 Z2 to either Source or the actual source being used.
> 
> When I do it in the Denon app, the setting does not save! Power off, power on, and Z2 is reset to the first input (CBL/SAT). I swear it used to work in my old house and follow the Z1 source.
> 
> Thoughts?


my $0.02 ..
I think that's why we are using the Cbl/sat input now as the default connection on the daisy changed avr. simplifies not having to worry about changing the input.


----------



## Nalleh

stikle said:


> Ok Nalle the Frankenmaster, I have a problem.
> 
> I've got everything wired up in the new theater, and my dual Atmos setup is working...provided I manually change the 6200 Z2 to either Source or the actual source being used.
> 
> When I do it in the Denon app, the setting does not save! Power off, power on, and Z2 is reset to the first input (CBL/SAT). I swear it used to work in my old house and follow the Z1 source.
> 
> Thoughts?


That sounds strange !! I have used both my 7200 and now the 8500 with «source» on Z2 input, and it works like a charm, latest just yesterday i watched a movie. And i just tested it now, and turned Z2 on, off and on again, and it still says source.

Maybe you need a reset? Try the JD trick of restting 3-4 times, and go again 

Just remember to save your setting to pc before you do it.


----------



## stikle

Well....it appears that I messed up something in my Harmony along the way. I deleted all activities and recreated a couple and it SEEMS to be working like it used to so far. More testing is needed.

However, I have now discovered another big problem. 

Here's yesterday's post in the Denon 2015 thread:



stikle said:


> Well, I've got the weirdest thing going on right now and I don't know where to go from here.
> 
> Hardware
> Vizio P75-C1
> Denon AVR-X6200
> Oppo UDP-203 UHD Player
> nVidia Shield 4K
> AppleTV 4K
> Roku Premier+ 4K
> 
> All cables are Monoprice Certified Premium. I've got a 10' going to HDMI 1 & 2 through the wall to the equipment rack. All of the rest are 6'.
> 
> If I plug any of the 3 streamers directly into HDMI 1 or 2, then in the settings each one reports that the connection is 4K (both 30/60) HDR compatible. This indicates to me that both cables are good.
> 
> If I add the 6200 inline, that's where it gets wonky. I plug all three streamers into HDMI 3-5 (Bluray, Game, Media) using 6' HDMI cables. All three streamers now only report being able to handle 1080p.
> 
> Now for the _REALLY_ weird part: The Oppo UDP-203 correctly outputs a 4K HDR signal through the 6200 to the Vizio. While watching a physical disc (The Matrix 4K for example), the info button on the Vizio reports that it's receiving a 2160p (4K) HDR signal. The Oppo has an HDMI IN port for passing devices through, letting it handle the scaling. If I plug the Oppo into HDMI 3 (Bluray), then plug any of the 3 streamers into the HDMI IN (with their three respective HDMI cables)...each device correctly reports being able to output 4K.
> 
> What the heck? HDMI 3 is obviously passing 4K through from the Oppo, and yet the streamers won't UNLESS they are going through the Oppo.
> 
> Uh... Huh?
> 
> This morning I saved the config, did a hard reset, reloaded the config, and the same behavior exists.




And my followup post today:



stikle said:


> Well, poop.
> 
> I left out something critical, and after hours of troubleshooting today, I've figured out the problem.
> 
> I am doing something slightly unorthodox with my setup here.
> 
> I forgot to mention the X4200.
> 
> I've got my 6200 running 5.2 + wides + TM. I feed the Zone 2 HDMI output to my 4200 HDMI 1, which handles only TF + TR. This gives me Atmos 9.2.6. It sounds fabulous.
> 
> The instant that the 6200 Zone 2 can see the 4200, there's an HDMI renegotiation and 4K capability from any of the streamers on the 6200 drops down to 1080p.
> 
> If I leave the 4200 powered off or power off the 6200 Zone 2 power, then I get 4K through the 6200 again.
> 
> If I leave the 4200 off, and plug my 1080p server room TV/Monitor into the 6200 Monitor Out...poof 1080p from the streamers.
> 
> I assume this is all part of anti-piracy measures, because I can see no reason for it to be happening otherwise.
> 
> Why do streamers work through my Oppo 203? Well, probably because I'm running a split HDMI configuration on that - one directly to the TV so Dolby Vision works, and one to the 6200 so I get Atmos/DTS:X audio. The rest of the system isn't seeing it as another device in the chain.
> 
> I've looked through all of the settings on the 6200 & 4200 and see nothing that will help in my scenario.
> 
> So, there we have it. Sigh. At least the 6200 isn't malfunctioning, so yay.


I want 4K and Atmos from my streamers without going through the Oppo.

I'm not crying like a baby, yet, but will if it'll help.


----------



## Nalleh

stikle said:


> Well....it appears that I messed up something in my Harmony along the way. I deleted all activities and recreated a couple and it SEEMS to be working like it used to so far. More testing is needed.
> 
> However, I have now discovered another big problem.
> 
> Here's yesterday's post in the Denon 2015 thread:
> 
> 
> And my followup post today:
> 
> I want 4K and Atmos from my streamers without going through the Oppo.
> 
> I'm not crying like a baby, yet, but will if it'll help.


Yeah, the Zone2 HDMI and HDCP 2.2 can be tricky sometimes. I have had that problem in several situations.

Let me ask you this: on your second AVR, the 4200, do you have your 4K tv connected to it? If not, try connecting a HDMI cable from Monitor 1 out to a HDMI IN on your tv. All of this HDCP 2.2 compatible, of course.


----------



## stikle

Nalleh said:


> Let me ask you this: on your second AVR, the 4200, do you have your 4K tv connected to it? If not, try connecting a HDMI cable from Monitor 1 out to a HDMI IN on your tv. All of this HDCP 2.2 compatible, of course.



You're my hero, that did it! 

And now I understand why it failed, and a little more about HDCP as a result.

Thank you my friend!

-Seth


----------



## Mashie Saldana

stikle said:


> You're my hero, that did it!
> 
> And now I understand why it failed, and a little more about HDCP as a result.
> 
> Thank you my friend!
> 
> -Seth


I'm surprised the OPPO didn't drop down to 1080p with the 4k sink missing from all parts of the chain, it should have if it worked correctly.


----------



## Nalleh

stikle said:


> You're my hero, that did it!
> 
> And now I understand why it failed, and a little more about HDCP as a result.
> 
> Thank you my friend!
> 
> -Seth


Great, glad it worked 

I actually still have a similar Zone2 problem: on my Xbox one x, if i play a Atmos movie and turn on Z2, it no longer plays Atmos! Turn off Z2 again, and Atmos comes back. Picture is ok with full 4K though, and this is a Xbox problem, but never the less, very strange.


----------



## sirjaymz

Nalleh said:


> Yeah, it is fun to tweak, and espesially when you get good results
> 
> I have a saved file for the Minidsp with a pre-eq’ed setup, with correct levels and just one sonos that i load before running Audyssey, and then when that is finished, i reload my «normal» file to the Minidsp that has all my special tweaks in it.
> 
> And since the 8500 now runs a full 9.1.4 alone, i can test on the fly between that and the full 13.1.8 by muting and unmuting the 7200. So instant change between 9.1.4 and 13.1.8. And it is easy to hear how much difference it is.
> 
> It was @*maikeldepotter* who came up with several of these ideas for expanding the Atmos, and this latest "matrixed wides" setup was very cool actually. Looking forward to test it out more



So I'm interested in your calibration steps for this. I am at the point of trying to bring my system up, and calibrated my AVR1 (7200), and the results are absolutely horrible. Audyssey calibration of the lower end.. ie below 150hz, shoved it into the dirt. (-12db and the likes.) Not sure what I should be doing to ensure 'proper' calibration.. but.. I know what I am doing.. is definitely not right..  my miniDSP 2x4 and UMIK-1 are on order, but looking to get and understanding from your perspective on steps you take , so i can think about what I can apply the same thought process to what I'll need to do...


----------



## Nalleh

sirjaymz said:


> So I'm interested in your calibration steps for this. I am at the point of trying to bring my system up, and calibrated my AVR1 (7200), and the results are absolutely horrible. Audyssey calibration of the lower end.. ie below 150hz, shoved it into the dirt. (-12db and the likes.) Not sure what I should be doing to ensure 'proper' calibration.. but.. I know what I am doing.. is definitely not right.. my miniDSP 2x4 and UMIK-1 are on order, but looking to get and understanding from your perspective on steps you take , so i can think about what I can apply the same thought process to what I'll need to do...


Well, first of all if Audyssey reports -12 on the sub level, then you have the gain on your sub to high. Did you skip the level matching step in Audyssey?
It is advisable to adjust the sub gain to read 77-81dB in the Audyssey sub level step, so that your sub level in speaker setup after Audyssey is -5 to -11. This way you are in no risk of clipping your LFE signal.

Second of all, after reading about @coolrda using the same position(MLP) for all measurement positions, i have started doing it that way too. However i only have two seat, so with two rows, that might not be optimal.

BUT: until you get all up and running as it should, try to keep it simple: do just the minimum 3 positions with 5 or 7 speakers, and all with mic at main MLP. Try it out, listen to how it sounds, adjust, try again, and when you have a good sound, move on and do all speakers, more positions etc.


----------



## brazensol

Is there a way to see the onscreen displays from both AVR's? I have the 6200W outputting to the projector and can see the it's onscreen display just fine but I can't see the 8500H's display. However the UHD player goes to the 8500H and I can see it's onscreen display just fine... Do I have to run a separate HDMI cable from the 8500H to the projector's 2nd HDMI input and select that input to see the 8500H display?


----------



## Nalleh

brazensol said:


> Is there a way to see the onscreen displays from both AVR's? I have the 6200W outputting to the projector and can see the it's onscreen display just fine but I can't see the 8500H's display. However the UHD player goes to the 8500H and I can see it's onscreen display just fine... Do I have to run a separate HDMI cable from the 8500H to the projector's 2nd HDMI input and select that input to see the 8500H display?


Yes, you need a display to see OSD for each AVR. In my case i have a HDMI cable from each AVR to my tv, and just switch input to view each.

So in your case unless you also have a tv, you would need two HDMI cables to the PJ.

You COULD try a HDMI cable from the 8500 to a input on your 6200, and by switching to that input, see the 8500’s OSD trough your 6200 on to your PJ.


----------



## brazensol

Nalleh said:


> Yes, you need a display to see OSD for each AVR. In my case i have a HDMI cable from each AVR to my tv, and just switch input to view each.
> 
> So in your case unless you also have a tv, you would need two HDMI cables to the PJ.
> 
> You COULD try a HDMI cable from the 8500 to a input on your 6200, and by switching to that input, see the 8500’s OSD trough your 6200 on to your PJ.


Which 8500 output would I use?


----------



## Nalleh

brazensol said:


> Which 8500 output would I use?


Monitor1 out, or Monitor2 out.


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, so here is some pics of my EQ of the 12x12" i have nearfield. It is pretty violent, but with nearfield, not much room gain, and they get very peaky, so it is what it is. The result is such a improvement in my setup, i still just shake my head 

Top pic shows the auto-EQ done in REW to take away peaks and dips, second one is the extra LPF i put in to avoid boominess and localization because of nearfield, and third is to shape the curve from ultra peaky midbass ( around 60-80hz), to a rising house curve peaking at 10 hz.










This is the shelf filters i use on the JBL’s:
6dB Low Shelf @ 15hz, Q 0.7
6dB Low Shelf @ 10hz, Q 1.0
-12dB High Shelf @ 40hz, Q 1.2
-4dB High Shelf @ 39hz, Q 0.9

So if you add it all up, its about 24dB increase from 60 hz down to 10hz.

But its not all boost per se, as i use negative HS of about 16-17 dB up high.

In room, this changes the curve from the red(close mic) to the blue(nearfield):











And lately there has been a lot of focus on bass filtered audio track on bluray releases, so much so that a thread was started on how to «fix» the issue. It’s called BEQ or bass EQ and uses graphs of the soundtrack to see how it looks and use DSP to add back to the LFE track.

Link to BEQ thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2995212-bass-eq-fil-turd-movies.html

So since my Minidsp 10x10HD has 4 configs, I made the first one no BEQ, just the normal EQ and house curve i have always had(not shown here, just showing the BEQ her).
And then three more agressive BEQ made from looking at the bass graphs in the bass thread and Aron BEQ pics. They all have 4 x the Low Shelfs shown in the pic.










This should cover/improve 80% of the fil-TURD movies


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Real nice use of filters! I sometimes forget about the HS since I’m so used to messing with the LS. Looks like I get a similar response on my subs right behind me in the 45hz area that needs a pretty hefty cut to get rid of that peak. I hate having to cut that much, but like you say, it is what it is.

I concur though. Subs right behind you can be pretty crazy and make such a difference huh. Even though I’ve been running them for about 3 years or so now, they still amaze me what they can do. The trick is getting rid of the peakiness and integrated with the rest of the system sub system, which I’m sure you’ve nailed.

Yeah your 4 presets ought to take care of you for most movies and BEQ needs i would think. Nice work!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ Real nice use of filters! I sometimes forget about the HS since I’m so used to messing with the LS. Looks like I get a similar response on my subs right behind me in the 45hz area that needs a pretty hefty cut to get rid of that peak. I hate having to cut that much, but like you say, it is what it is.
> 
> I concur though. Subs right behind you can be pretty crazy and make such a difference huh. Even though I’ve been running them for about 3 years or so now, they still amaze me what they can do. The trick is getting rid of the peakiness and integrated with the rest of the system sub system, which I’m sure you’ve nailed.
> 
> Yeah your 4 presets ought to take care of you for most movies and BEQ needs i would think. Nice work!


First of all, the Minidsp is a genious tool to use in HT setups, no matter how big or small your setup is. I like to tinker, and the things it can do is so much fun to discover. LOVE IT !!

Yes, there are two peaks to consider, and i believe we both have them in our setup. First one is the native response of our small sealed boxes, which is peaky by design in the upper region, like 50-90hz, and i fix this in the third pic. And then it is the "room induced" response, which has lots of peaks and dips, and i fixed with the REW Auto-EQ, and is seen in the first pic. You can see it reduce a peak at 41hz by about 15dB, so yeah, there is plenty of peaks to deal with, LOL.

And yes, i use negative HS on the sonosubs too, because they are peaky, small’ish and sealed also.


----------



## brazensol

Nalleh said:


> Yes, you need a display to see OSD for each AVR. In my case i have a HDMI cable from each AVR to my tv, and just switch input to view each.
> 
> So in your case unless you also have a tv, you would need two HDMI cables to the PJ.
> 
> You COULD try a HDMI cable from the 8500 to a input on your 6200, and by switching to that input, see the 8500’s OSD trough your 6200 on to your PJ.


I did as you suggested and it did work and now I can see the user guide. Why can't we just use the 8500H output (Monitor 1 or 2) to a 6200W input instead of using Zone2 out of the 8500H? Would this not work the same as Zone2 out AND allow visibility of both interfaces?


----------



## Mashie Saldana

brazensol said:


> I did as you suggested and it did work and now I can see the user guide. Why can't we just use the 8500H output (Monitor 1 or 2) to a 6200W input instead of using Zone2 out of the 8500H? Would this not work the same as Zone2 out AND allow visibility of both interfaces?


Monitor 1 and 2 are video only, no audio.


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ What he said


----------



## brazensol

Dammit! that kinda of sucks.  Still, can't complain overall!  So when I run audyssey (hopefully today) I just adjust each receiver separately with the microphone at the same location?


----------



## Nalleh

brazensol said:


> Dammit! that kinda of sucks.  Still, can't complain overall!  So when I run audyssey (hopefully today) I just adjust each receiver separately with the microphone at the same location?


Yes, you can do that


----------



## Nalleh

Got this little bad-boy today 










It’s the wifi dongle for Minidsp’s, works on all of them exept the plain 2x4.

No more USB cable to connect, just whip up your laptop in the comfort of your seat, and start EQ’ing


----------



## Foundation42

Nalleh said:


> Got this little bad-boy today
> 
> 
> 
> It’s the wifi dongle for Minidsp’s, works on all of them exept the plain 2x4.
> 
> No more USB cable to connect, just whip up your laptop in the comfort of your seat, and start EQ’ing



Nice! Thanks for the heads up on that. Order placed.


----------



## Nalleh

Slight non-HT related update, something that was supposed to get done when we redid the living room, but hadn’t gotten around too, until now.

Wanted LED-strips around the room, so got some cheap from Ebay, and Bob-s-your-uncle


----------



## Nalleh

Another little update.

So a while ago my third AVR, the Yamaha suddenly stopped working. Or at least the main zone went dead. So i’ve been on the lookout for a replacement. The other day a RX-A3010 popped up in the local ads very cheap, so i bought it. This is a year newer than the broken one and has 9 amps inboard, as opposed to 7 in the old. It was mint, and everything was in the box, so i was happy with that.










So now i could use my matrixed VOG again  This new one had more adjustment to the lip sync, so i could use it in PL2 mode for the VOG extract.
So in Auro i have the native rear heights and VOG, and in everything else i can use native rear heights and a matrixed VOG. It really ads to the sense of height, compared to just the rear heights.

And my Darbee also kicked the bucket a while ago, so i got the newer DVP5000S, and a MARSEILLE MCABLE cable for 1080P watching on the PJ. I really like what both do to a 1080P pic, but the Darbee is not 4K compatible, so i found a way to get Darbee+Mcable 1080P pic for watching blurays and 3D movies AND beeing able to switch to full 4K UHD when i want without having to reconnect anything.

EDIT: pic


----------



## sirjaymz

Ok.. so I have a question.. Do you have a 4k HDR source that you use, that displays 4k, along with the Atmos audio working as well?


The reason I ask is the following.


Everytime I connect my 4k HDR, either a nvidia shield or a Xbox one x, and play 4k hdr content, the display device will sync up at that.. 4k, hdr..


when I turn on zone 2 on the primary avr, the main display then goes down to 1080p, as well as the zone 2 output. However, I get atmos out of zone 2 into the secondary avr.


Do you have this issue with your setup?


----------



## Mashie Saldana

sirjaymz said:


> Ok.. so I have a question.. Do you have a 4k HDR source that you use, that displays 4k, along with the Atmos audio working as well?
> 
> 
> The reason I ask is the following.
> 
> 
> Everytime I connect my 4k HDR, either a nvidia shield or a Xbox one x, and play 4k hdr content, the display device will sync up at that.. 4k, hdr..
> 
> 
> when I turn on zone 2 on the primary avr, the main display then goes down to 1080p, as well as the zone 2 output. However, I get atmos out of zone 2 into the secondary avr.
> 
> 
> Do you have this issue with your setup?


You need to have all AVR's connect to 4K sinks, as in connect both the AVR's to 4K inputs on display devices.


----------



## sirjaymz

Mashie Saldana said:


> You need to have all AVR's connect to 4K sinks, as in connect both the AVR's to 4K inputs on display devices.





Thanks ... this worked for making the 4k HDR function with the temp display. I had thought about it about 6 months ago, and since have forgotten I guess. Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## Nalleh

sirjaymz said:


> Thanks ... this worked for making the 4k HDR function with the temp display. I had thought about it about 6 months ago, and since have forgotten I guess. Thanks for the reminder.


Correct, all AVR’s in the chain need to be connected to a monitor. If you want 1080P: all need to be connected to a 1080P display. If you want 4K HDR: all need to be connected to a 4K HDR display.


----------



## Nalleh

Small update again.

I have noted that altough the sono-cabs themself are very inert, the endplates do vibrate a little under heavy LFE use. And when i made the sonos, i use the router for the driver cutouts. And since these are perfectly round, i now used them to strenghten the endplates. I chamfered the outer circle with the router, to smooth them out a bit.










Used a "green glue" type to glue them on.










Paint on.










And done. They are now much more inert and stiffer, so much less vibrations. Job done 










And i finally got around to make a proper plattform for the Crowsons. Earlier i just made a simple frame connecting the 3-piece couch, but i now made a much more stable one from 3/4 inch MDF sheet.
Cut and drilled for mounting.










Painted.










Had to made clearance for couch frame bolt heads.










Used the original rubber feets from the couch (not used when having the MA’s) to keep the Crowsons in place. Also note the drawing on the bottom from the old frame that mounted the Crowsons and isolator at an angle. Not optimal. They are now mounted inline, so more effective.










Done. Had a LED strip lying around, so put it to good use. Note the extra wide plattform? Got two Buttkicker BK-LFE on the way, so am trying that too 










Got a little idea from this thread, and going to try for the torque-riser idea 

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2128466-risers-platforms-tactical-bass.html


And some NF porn, now that the couch was removed 











🤓


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Nice bro and awesome shot of the subs!

Oh man, gonna try the BK LFE’s!!!??? Sweet! Will be interesting to see what you think of them since your so used to the MA’s. Me and Biga were talking about all in text last night. He’s got the BKs too and wants to try the MA’s one of these days. And as you know I’ve got both and love both. BUT they are different beasts for sure. I’ve tried to do away with either the MA’s or BKs because it’d be easier and cheaper, but every time I try to do that I always come back to liking both together more, especially on the chairs that I have now. The combo can be pretty bad ass once you get the levels of each dialed in and working together. If I had to pick one though, Id probably go with the BKs and forgo the singles hz since the BKs suck for this, and aren’t nearly as good above 30hz either. I guess I’m just a BK lover for that meat and potatoes area of bass (10-30hz) though, so I love’m. Hell, I wouldn’t mind bolting even more under my chairs if I could fit them. Not that I need more power, but they seem to get better the more you add. Multiples/Herds/Small Army of BKs can be pretty mind boggling with the feeling they can create. 

I’m sure seating and the way they are mounted can make a big difference though. You may or may not like them. But the more flex the better though with the BKs IMO so your riser might work great. They were pretty insane on my previous seating on the couch I had them on downstairs before I changed rooms. That couch had a ton of flex with its thin metal frame over a 3-seat span. With the BKs, they can be mean as hell and bring it big time in the meaty area of bass (10-27hz or so) but it’s easy to overdo if not careful, whereas the MA’s seem to be more forgiving and one can run them hotter a fair amount without noticing it as much if that makes since. I guess what I’m trying to say is that the BKs are just more aggressive feeling, so even slight intensity changes can make them less forgiving and not feel as natural if not careful. But when you get’m right where they need to be …sheesh o mighty! Maybe that’s why I like them ran through my Oppo for complete control on the fly (for a little or a lot) for each movie, IDK. Anyway, Just my 2 cents on them that may or may not help to keep in mind when you try them. 

Are you planning on bolting them to your future riser kinda like Toe or to the actual frame of the couch? 

On another note, I remember you saying you had issues with rear surrounds being spread out farther off to the sides. I moved mine the other day to be closer together behind me, and boy what a super diff it made! Way more enveloping and blend better. They could still stand to be a little closer together with my current seating arrangement, but makes it too hard to get into my little room that houses the amps and projector. Oh well, it’s WAY better now the way it is. So, thanks for mentioning that to me a long time ago! Sometimes it takes a while over time to get everything just like you like and optimized.


----------



## vn800art

On a side note, while I am still waiting to get acquainted with Rew for tuning my little 2 x 2 Jbl 1214 cabs in a far Nf (1 meter) from Mlp (but, really, the usual scene of the General funeral in the Great Wall with all those timpani shakes the room) , I got questions from a friend about their choice for a new 4ktv and I remember You had a new Oled Philips not so many months ago, so how do You consider this unit for Ota Sd viewing, and for Avr connections (Arc on a full Hdmi 2.0b/Hdcp 2.2 input? ). I believe You had given full stars for pq so this is a moot point.
Thanks again
Regards
Alessandro
Nb Thanks also for confirming my intent in going through the Diy rabbit hole for subwoofers - I will have to add a VBSS to complete the midbass range, my room is small!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ Nice bro and awesome shot of the subs!
> 
> Oh man, gonna try the BK LFE’s!!!??? Sweet! Will be interesting to see what you think of them since your so used to the MA’s. Me and Biga were talking about all in text last night. He’s got the BKs too and wants to try the MA’s one of these days. And as you know I’ve got both and love both. BUT they are different beasts for sure. I’ve tried to do away with either the MA’s or BKs because it’d be easier and cheaper, but every time I try to do that I always come back to liking both together more, especially on the chairs that I have now. The combo can be pretty bad ass once you get the levels of each dialed in and working together. If I had to pick one though, Id probably go with the BKs and forgo the singles hz since the BKs suck for this, and aren’t nearly as good above 30hz either. I guess I’m just a BK lover for that meat and potatoes area of bass (10-30hz) though, so I love’m. Hell, I wouldn’t mind bolting even more under my chairs if I could fit them. Not that I need more power, but they seem to get better the more you add. Multiples/Herds/Small Army of BKs can be pretty mind boggling with the feeling they can create.
> 
> I’m sure seating and the way they are mounted can make a big difference though. You may or may not like them. But the more flex the better though with the BKs IMO so your riser might work great. They were pretty insane on my previous seating on the couch I had them on downstairs before I changed rooms. That couch had a ton of flex with its thin metal frame over a 3-seat span. With the BKs, they can be mean as hell and bring it big time in the meaty area of bass (10-27hz or so) but it’s easy to overdo if not careful, whereas the MA’s seem to be more forgiving and one can run them hotter a fair amount without noticing it as much if that makes since. I guess what I’m trying to say is that the BKs are just more aggressive feeling, so even slight intensity changes can make them less forgiving and not feel as natural if not careful. But when you get’m right where they need to be …sheesh o mighty! Maybe that’s why I like them ran through my Oppo for complete control on the fly (for a little or a lot) for each movie, IDK. Anyway, Just my 2 cents on them that may or may not help to keep in mind when you try them.
> 
> Are you planning on bolting them to your future riser kinda like Toe or to the actual frame of the couch?
> 
> On another note, I remember you saying you had issues with rear surrounds being spread out farther off to the sides. I moved mine the other day to be closer together behind me, and boy what a super diff it made! Way more enveloping and blend better. They could still stand to be a little closer together with my current seating arrangement, but makes it too hard to get into my little room that houses the amps and projector. Oh well, it’s WAY better now the way it is. So, thanks for mentioning that to me a long time ago! Sometimes it takes a while over time to get everything just like you like and optimized.


Yes, i am exited to try out the BK’s and will try them both at each end of the plattform, to maximize the fulcrum, and i will try them under each seat if that doesn’t work. And i expect a bit of tuning to get all of it to work optimally 
If you read the thread i linked, rms8 has the solution i like to try, i don’t know how toe has it mounted...

Nice to hear you like the narrower surround backs. As i said i like the sound from them to come from the rear of me, not the side, as that sounds more immersive to me. Good to hear you agree


----------



## Nalleh

vn800art said:


> On a side note, while I am still waiting to get acquainted with Rew for tuning my little 2 x 2 Jbl 1214 cabs in a far Nf (1 meter) from Mlp (but, really, the usual scene of the General funeral in the Great Wall with all those timpani shakes the room) , I got questions from a friend about their choice for a new 4ktv and I remember You had a new Oled Philips not so many months ago, so how do You consider this unit for Ota Sd viewing, and for Avr connections (Arc on a full Hdmi 2.0b/Hdcp 2.2 input? ). I believe You had given full stars for pq so this is a moot point.
> Thanks again
> Regards
> Alessandro
> Nb Thanks also for confirming my intent in going through the Diy rabbit hole for subwoofers - I will have to add a VBSS to complete the midbass range, my room is small!


Yes, i love the PHILIPS OLED873. I have a sat-box for normal TV wiewing and it is 720P resolution, and the Philips does upscaling wonderfully in that scenario. Amazing colours, amazing black levels, and watching 4K HDR is insane. Philips can’t do Dolby Vision because of some licensing stuff, but it does do HDR10+.
I does Arc just fine, not sure about E-Arc though.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Yes, i am exited to try out the BK’s and will try them both at each end of the plattform, to maximize the fulcrum, and i will try them under each seat if that doesn’t work. And i expect a bit of tuning to get all of it to work optimally
> If you read the thread i linked, rms8 has the solution i like to try, i don’t know how toe has it mounted...
> 
> Nice to hear you like the narrower surround backs. As i said i like the sound from them to come from the rear of me, not the side, as that sounds more immersive to me. Good to hear you agree


I skimmed through the first part of that thread but didn’t get all the details of his solution. 

Toe posted pics at one point in the movie bass thread but is buried deep I’m sure. IIRC I think he had them mounted under his chair to the riser floor. But it could be behind the chairs instead, IDK for sure. But I do remember him saying at one point that he didn’t like them mounted directly to his chairs, too gimmicky feeling or something like that. Which doesn’t surprise me, if the levels aren’t really close to being right for each movie when bolted to the chair itself, they can feel this way a lot easier than the MA’s. On the riser I’m sure it lessons that in a big-time way and can feel more natural a lot easier for all movies. Me, I wanted maximum power bolted to the chair even if it means a little tougher to get levels right. BK LFE's are awesome IMO, but not as easy as MA’s. Lots of folks don’t like the BKs at all and think they feel slow, sloppy and gimmicky. I can understand why if one is not real aware of integration and what’s actually going on with them with levels etc. All this stuff can be so subjective though and tons of variables to deal with.

Yeah having them on the both ends of the platform may work really well. Cool, only one way to find out  Hope it goes well for you man and you like what they bring to the mix. If not, least you tried it and your system is already top of the food chain awesome and gives you what you want. But I do get it that its easily to start wanting ‘more’ sometimes and wondering ‘what if’ LOL. Oh well, the experimenting is part of the fun and can sometimes bring something amazing to the table IMO


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## Nalleh

These three posts explain the reasons to mount them outside the isolator feets, to gain momentum for the BK’s:



LTD02 said:


> @rms8
> that is a really nice solution and is quite a bit different from the typical riser. after studying it I'd suggest calling your innovation a *TORQUE-RISER.*
> 
> _"Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world."_ - Archimedes
> 
> A typical riser has feet or is otherwise connected to the floor all the way around. with such an arrangement, there are no fulcra, so shaking is limited to panel flex in between the feet. there is no force multiplier. there is no leverage. dashed line represents fulcrum for pressure on corner. purple pucks are the feet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with your *TORQUE-RISER*, the feet are moved in, such that a small force toward the perimeter of the riser yields a large force on the seats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by configuring the feet to a minimum set, the panel torque can be maximized. this will depend on the size of the riser and the number of seats, and weight of the people and seats, but generally, the fewer feet and the closer that they are located to the center will yield more leverage or 'ulf-torque'.





LTD02 said:


> @notnyt
> i'm pretty sure follgott (nils) had at one point performed a spring test. maybe that was the one?
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-...uild-18-x-peerless-xxls12-3.html#post24229152
> 
> also, even if some of the points are coupled, there are still the bending modes. I'm not sure if the couch sitting on the mid-section prevents some of the bass pressure from exerting a force there, thus creating a differential pressure between the center and the edges. probably several things going on actually.





rms8 said:


> Bingo !
> 
> TY too.
> 
> I designed my platform first and foremost to provide the most response from transducers. The fact that the tactile response from the subwoofers alone is just icing on the cake. I can't claim that my platform design is the BEST design to gain tactile sensation over a concrete floor for someone using subs alone. Other designs folks around here are using may provide much better response from subwoofers.
> 
> What LTD02 has described is exactly on point. The fulcrum, teeter-totter analogies are all spot on. As the 3lb slug in the BK moves in the vertical, it is taking the whole platform on that end with it since there is NOTHING below the shaker and the platform is very flexible. Add to this that I have another BK'er mounted in the diagonal corner, but wired out of phase and the whole teeter-totter example gets magnified.
> 
> Let me be clear, this method works best for special effects such as earthquakes, explosions.....things that would actually cause you to move. There have been some sequences in some movies (there was a few episodes in Band of Brothers too) which really make me think I had a DBox actuator under my seats! It works THAT GOOD. That's why I have referred to this concept as the "Poor Mans DBox".
> 
> This design may not be the most ideal for typical bass duties though, like a gun shot or a fight scene....those duties are reproduced by the smaller shakers in each chair and the subwoofers. Like I mentioned above, this concept is to take the explosions/earthquakes to the next level, pseudo-DBox style.
> 
> 
> .



So by mounting them to the seat frame directly, the BK has to move the whole mass resting on top of if, while if you mount them outside the feet, you get a fulcrum effect, helping the BK’s.
If you look at the pic of the underside of my plattform, i have about a foot of plattform on each side of the feets/MA’s, and i will mount the BK as far to each side of plattform as possible, to get most leverage.


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## SBuger

^^^Bad ass, man, that could be wicked as hell right there!! You gonna try to run each end out of phase as well too to really maximize this? Might as well try it all  

I was going to do something similar (not the out of phase thing though) on my couch down stairs for BKs on the outsides like your gonna do, since I couldn’t fit them underneath the two outside seats because of recliner hardware in the way. So BKs were only in the middle. But moved up into the new room before I could get it done. I will say though that some effects were nutz o crazy strong in that middle seat MLP since the couch had so much flex (like pretty much nausea inducing wobble in the 16hz area). A little stronger in a few areas than they are now even with suspended floor (and same gear basically). But better in some areas, but not as good in others. Just different but good. The effect you'll get might be even better!  

Will be so interested to see how you like the effect it gives. It could be insane starting at about 25hz and below


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## Nalleh

^^ Actually the one BK out of phase detail was the only thing that did not make sense to me, but i will try it. As i see it when both are in phase mounted on each outer end of the plattform: when they both move up at the ends, the middle will move down. And visa-versa, like a teeter-totter. Just like the pic in second quote above. If you connect one out of phase, just as with speakers, they will work against each other, so that will be interesting to test out. And also how that would affect the timing between the BK’s and the MA’s. But hey, it is easy enough to test 

When i get the BK’s, i will drill holes one each end of the plattform and under each seat, so i can easily test both ways. But i can see how the fulcrum idea will work very well  But then again, it has a 3 pound slug pumping up and down, so it will probably move most seats/listeners.

Got another amp today too. That’s 5!! NU6K now. When will it end.....

(Actually it is the relacement model NX6000. Got a open box for less than i paid for the older NU6K)

But i need new Noctua fans for it, more XLR cables, more Speakons.... ahhhhrghh..


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## Nalleh

Got the Buttkickers the other day 










First impressions: they are heavy, robust and big!!
Went pretty easy to get them mounted, but missing some cables and speakons yet, so just tried them by using the MA’s amp to get a test.

Well, compared to the puny shakers i have tried earlier, these are brutal! Amazing that they manage to shake the whole couch like that !! During the first couple of tests i kept seeing the amp go into protect and i discovered both BK’s spat out the banana plugs because of the shaking, LOOL. I had to just drop the plugs and screw the wires into the terminals .
In many ways they give the same " feel" as the MA’s. But you can tell a difference between shake(BK) and "lift" (MA’s). After running some demo clips, i kind of had the feeling you get in your fingers after running lawnmower for a while. You know the tingeling feeling, but i had it all over my body, LOL. So they sure have potential 











HOWEVER: they are noisy! The clacking when pushed almost made me soil myself, and also when playing normal TV levels, they were making noises like something was loose. This is a dealbraker for me if i can’t get this fixed, as it was audiable.

But i am not done yet, and will test more when i get all the parts 

@SBuger: what setting do you use on your BK’s in the Minidsp?



I also got these:









12" passive radiators from Earthquake supposed to increase levels by 6dB on any sealed box, and is tunable down to 10hz. Will test out with my JBL’s


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## SBuger

^^^ LOL …yep they are big and heavy for sure!! And yep they have some pretty serious power. Yeah, I had to start directly wiring to the BK ‘s too, and not use bananas, as they can start to work themselves out.

Also, yep, they give a similar feel as the MAs sometimes, but different as well.

Yes they can be noisy, but shouldn’t be too bad once you get the levels dialed in where you want. I don’t ever notice the noise during movies or demo, but if I run them through the Oppo only and everything else muted, I can hear them for sure, but mainly the chair vibrating/shaking, not so much the BKs themselves, unless they are turned up too much. But with large numbers of BKs plus the MA’s, I don’t have to turn them up as much.

Actually, I’m not applying any settings at all on the BKs in the Mini – no PEQ or LS and delay set to ‘0’. Only thing I apply to them now is the BEQ’s – the LS’s and PEQ for overshoot if it needs it.

I run mine fairly high and only apply half the BEQ to them. I like them this way better than lower level and full BEQ, but that’s just me and how I like them on my system. I think because I’m such a fan of the feel they create in the 20hz to mid 20’s area and running them higher feels better for this vs than running them lower and a LS for baseline curve (before BEQ) if that makes sense. So flat I guess you could say.

I used to have to either set a tiny bit different delay than the MA’s or run a LPF BW6/oct at about 24hz to get them to match up and combine well with the MA’s on my old couch because of the way they had to be positioned in relation to the MA’s. But now, they are basically in the same position (close to right above the MA’s on my Pembrokes). No delay on one of the other needed anymore and they seem to combine really well. Also just high cut off on the BKS and MA’s at 50hz on the BK amps. Inuke 6000’s may be better but been real happy with the BK amps.

Wow, interesting on the earthquakes! Cool!


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## Nalleh

Ok, thanks for the input 

Yeah, the first thing i had to do was remove all LS , LOL! Mind you i ran just the 2 BK’s on all of the NU6K, so i might have pushed them a bit. Using 2 BK’s pr ch. might be much better.

I also had to use a 10hz HPF to avoid the clacking, but i might be able to tune that out with more testing.

As a first impression the "torque plattform" seems to be very effective considering i only have 2 BK’s, but the shaking is kind of localizable to "my side", but i need more testing. Haven’t tried both MA’s and BK’s either. Or the opposite phase. Or time align. So much more testing to do


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## Apgood

Nalleh said:


> HOWEVER: they are noisy! The clacking when pushed almost made me soil myself, and also when playing normal TV levels, they were making noises like something was loose. This is a dealbraker for me if i can’t get this fixed, as it was audiable.


If the Buttkickers are making a slapping / clacking of metal on metal noise then you are probably running them too hot / driving them too hard and they are bottoming out. Also you might be running then to a too high a frequency.

To tune them I ran the opening part of Edge of Tomorrow at the maximum volume I would ever listen to and just turned the gain back to just below where the slapping stops.

The other thing to do is also put a seperate low pass filter on them so they only get lower frequencies. I know they say it has a usable frequency to 200Hz but I found that way too high. Think from memory I turned my lowpass filter down to 60Hz or something like that so I could good energy at those ULF frequencies (edit: probably better to say 20 - 60hz range than ULF) without it being over driven at higher frequencies. Besides you got plenty of bass capacity in your room at higher frequencies. ,


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## Nalleh

Apgood said:


> If the Buttkickers are making a slapping / clacking of metal on metal noise then you are probably running them too hot / driving them too hard and they are bottoming out. Also you might be running then to a too high a frequency.
> 
> To tune them I ran the opening part of Edge of Tomorrow at the maximum volume I would ever listen to and just turned the gain back to just below where the slapping stops.
> 
> The other thing to do is also put a seperate low pass filter on them so they only get lower frequencies. I know they say it has a usable frequency to 200Hz but I found that way too high. Think from memory I turned my lowpass filter down to 60Hz or something like that so I could good energy at those ULF frequencies (edit: probably better to say 20 - 60hz range than ULF) without it being over driven at higher frequencies. Besides you got plenty of bass capacity in your room at higher frequencies. ,


Yeah, like i said lots of testing still to do, so i guess i will find a good tune when i have messed around with it more. 

I will also try them under each seat. Unfortunately i did not check the available space under the recliner properly, i thought i had plenty space, but the BK’s were bigger than i though. But there is room in the front part under the seat, the reclining mecanisme is mostly in the back part of the frame, so considering my earlier idea of having more MA’s under the front part of the plattform with inverted phase for more "tilting" effect, maybe using the BK’s the same way could work as intended. Since the plattform has the MA’s in the rear(rigid, no isolators) and the isolators under the front of the plattform, maybe the BK’s in front get «more room to work" mounted somewhat above the isolators. Inverted phase on top of that may get the intended effect.


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## Apgood

Nalleh said:


> Yeah, like i said lots of testing still to do, so i guess i will find a good tune when i have messed around with it more.
> 
> I will also try them under each seat. Unfortunately i did not check the available space under the recliner properly, i thought i had plenty space, but the BK’s were bigger than i though. But there is room in the front part under the seat, the reclining mecanisme is mostly in the back part of the frame, so considering my earlier idea of having more MA’s under the front part of the plattform with inverted phase for more "tilting" effect, maybe using the BK’s the same way could work as intended. Since the plattform has the MA’s in the rear(rigid, no isolators) and the isolators under the front of the plattform, maybe the BK’s in front get «more room to work" mounted somewhat above the isolators. Inverted phase on top of that may get the intended effect.


Here's a site with some good info about bass shakers and their tuning.


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## Nalleh

Apgood said:


> Here's a site with some good info about bass shakers and their tuning.


I guess there was supposed to be a link?


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## Apgood

Nalleh said:


> I guess there was supposed to be a link?


 lol... Yes there was. Got distracted by the kids. Here you go

http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/tactile_faq.html


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## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> I like them this way better than lower level and full BEQ, but that’s just me and how I like theI think because I’m such a fan of the feel they create in the 20hz to mid 20’s area and running them higher feels better for this vs than running them lower and a LS for baseline curve (before BEQ) if that makes sense. So flat I guess you could say.


Did a little more testing today, and managed to scrape together some speakons to connect it all. So earlier i had a NU6K on the 12 JBL's, 6 on each channel for a 6 ohm load. Now i have one more NX6K, so i rewired so that i now have 4 JBL's pr channel on the NU6K for a 4ohm load pr channel, and then for the 4 remaining JBL's, i connect to one channel on the new NX6K, also 4ohm. So all the JBL's got more juice(4 ohm vs 6ohm). This leaves one channel on the NX6K that i now can use for the 2 BK-LFE's.

So i now got to test with all component active: farfields, near fields, MA's and BK's. I use the same signal path on both the MA's and BK's, but they are on separate outputs, so i can EQ and what not separate.

And SBuger, you are right, the BK's definitely contribute even if you have MA's  They are actually a bit more physical than the MA's and truly makes it a more visceral experience.
For a lot of my initial bass tests i use a test clip from the Bass demo disc from a thread in here, and the clip i use is from Jupiter Ascending, when they get attacked mid air. This movie has awesome LFE/ULF and this clip has it all. And muting and unmuting the BK's and the MA's really shows how they work separate and together. And i thought the MA's had all i wanted, but the BK's do add a dimension, believe it or not. I DO however need a HPF filter on the BK's at 12hz 24dB BW, otherwise they clack at really low stuff, like single digits. But that's ok, as the MA's rule in single digits, but the BK's does add from 11-12hz and up.

Still more measuring and testing to do, but i am more optimistic now than i was, LOL.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Did a little more testing today, and managed to scrape together some speakons to connect it all. So earlier i had a NU6K on the 12 JBL's, 6 on each channel for a 6 ohm load. Now i have one more NX6K, so i rewired so that i now have 4 JBL's pr channel on the NU6K for a 4ohm load pr channel, and then for the 4 remaining JBL's, i connect to one channel on the new NX6K, also 4ohm. So all the JBL's got more juice(4 ohm vs 6ohm). This leaves one channel on the NX6K that i now can use for the 2 BK-LFE's.
> 
> So i now got to test with all component active: farfields, near fields, MA's and BK's. I use the same signal path on both the MA's and BK's, but they are on separate outputs, so i can EQ and what not separate.
> 
> And SBuger, you are right, the BK's definitely contribute even if you have MA's  They are actually a bit more physical than the MA's and truly makes it a more visceral experience.
> For a lot of my initial bass tests i use a test clip from the Bass demo disc from a thread in here, and the clip i use is from Jupiter Ascending, when they get attacked mid air. This movie has awesome LFE/ULF and this clip has it all. And muting and unmuting the BK's and the MA's really shows how they work separate and together. And i thought the MA's had all i wanted, but the BK's do add a dimension, believe it or not. I DO however need a HPF filter on the BK's at 12hz 24dB BW, otherwise they clack at really low stuff, like single digits. But that's ok, as the MA's rule in single digits, but the BK's does add from 11-12hz and up.
> 
> Still more measuring and testing to do, but i am more optimistic now than i was, LOL.


Nice, glad to hear your liking what they can add. Yeah if you decide to keep them in your rig, over time with use (and testing) you’ll find how and where you like them set to contribute most effectively. Yes, they really can make the bass experience more visceral (Cool you thought the same and should just get better as you get them dialed to your liking). And at this stage in the game with our similar bass setups, even just a little more or a tweak here and there can make a real nice diff to maximize it all. Another words, take what I consider great (sounds like you do too) with our FFs+NFs+MA’s combo, to over the top greatness in a crazy kind of way. Hopefully that didn’t come out wrong and sound arrogant or whatever, but I truly feel that the BKs in addition can help with this once you know their strengths and weaknesses and get them integrated well.

But yeah, the only thing (or the main thing anyway) that I don’t really like about the BKs is the under 10hz area or thereabouts if driven pretty hard, is the noise, bottoming and general ineffectiveness (More BKs do help this some though). But still, they are not a strong under 10hz performer at all, especially compared to the MA’s. The BK LFE’s have pros and cons, and this one is a con for sure.

Yeah, its probably best to run an HPF on them like you’re doing to avoid this. I did that for a while but seems to be ok without now for the levels I use them at and MV’s with no HPF on them. 

Cool on JA, I’ll have to revisit that one. That track is bad ass! A cool scene to check out the power of the BKs as well is the levitation scene of Mila Kunis (it ban be pretty brutal). 

I’ve got a couple movie scenes I use to test the BK problem of around 10hz and under. Hulk punch scene in the street fight and Hellboy II right before he busts through the door towards the beginning of the movie. I forget their names but it’s when those two dudes are standing there talking in the hallway right before hellboy busts down the door. Mega low end that dips into the singles and very strong in that 10hz area. It’ll bottom the BKs if I have them too high or don’t use a HPF on them at 10hz.

Anyway, sounds like your making progress and like their potential. Cool, man!


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## Nalleh

^^ Yeah, having two pr seat would probably give more headroom and avoid the clacking, but with the HPF the two i have work great, and they provide amazing shake. I still have them on each end of the plattform, and i don’t even know if i am going to bother testing them under the seats, they work that good, LOL. The point(isn’t it always) was to get all components active, not just the BK’s, as it all blends perfect when they all contribute. 

I might not need the HPF always on, i also tested Atomic Blonde with BEQ and had no problem without any HPF. That JA movie really hit the low notes 

Will be fun times watching movies and tuning them going forward  Thanks for suggesting the BK’s, man


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Yeah, having two pr seat would probably give more headroom and avoid the clacking, but with the HPF the two i have work great, and they provide amazing shake. I still have them on each end of the plattform, and i don’t even know if i am going to bother testing them under the seats, they work that good, LOL. The point(isn’t it always) was to get all components active, not just the BK’s, as it all blends perfect when they all contribute.
> 
> I might not need the HPF always on, i also tested Atomic Blonde with BEQ and had no problem without any HPF. That JA movie really hit the low notes
> 
> Will be fun times watching movies and tuning them going forward  *Thanks for suggesting the BK’s, man *


No prob, and you as well on the mini10x10HD and wifi gadget  Mine just came in will hopefully get it set up soon and in the chain instead of my multiple 2x4’s. Hopefully I won’t have the wifi problems that Pio is having. Im on a Mac like you so should go smooth I’m thinking


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## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> No prob, and you as well on the mini10x10HD and wifi gadget  Mine just came in will hopefully get it set up soon and in the chain instead of my multiple 2x4’s. Hopefully I won’t have the wifi problems that Pio is having. Im on a Mac like you so should go smooth I’m thinking


Nice, didn’t know you ordered the 10x10  Yeah, it is so much easier to have all the channels you want, remote, stronger signal(bal), and the possibility for several configs. And the Wifi makes it a breeze to tinker with it 

I had no problems setting it all up on Mac, only thing is you loose the possibility to change configs with the remote when a USB is plugged in, like the wifi connected. No biggie, as i need to program the BEQ before a movie anyway, and then just leave the correct BEQ config active.

Alternative, you can program 4 configs for the BEQ’ed movies you plan to watch, and when done just remove the (wifi) USB from the 10x10. Then you can change configs with remote (Just remeber to connect the wifi again before doing more tinkering, LOL).


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## SBuger

Yeah I’ve been wanting to get one ever since you did so finally pulled the trigger  Damn thing is not cheap, but nothing really cool HT related is right lol Sometimes you do get what you pay for though 

Cool thanks for the tips. That’s one thing I forgot to get though is the remote lol. Will just have to use the knobs on the unit itself to change configs if I disconnect the wifi usb. Will get one ordered though. 

My plan is to just save the BEQ configs as a file for each movie, or my favorites anyway (I’ve got about 30 or so that I watch or demo often) and then just quickly load which ever one I want when it's time. But may be cool to have the top 3 on 3 out of the 4 configs or something idk, or like you mentioned. 

Saving the BEQ configs in a file like this was working great on my two mini’s, except that I had to do it twice. Still way easier and faster once created the first time than having to re-type all the LS’s again though when going back to that movie. Now all will be in one mini to change everything to the right BEQ. Should be awesome me thinks


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## Nalleh

Yes, it is expensive, but worth it 

If you have a universal remote, you can just program it to use with 10x10. I did it with my Harmony, and works fine(as long as no USB plugged in).

Yeah, i will probably save the BEQ’s as i go on my Mac, so i don’t have to program it again if i re-watch a movie.


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## Bplaser

Good going i thought i was clever running double front speakers because the Yamaha has active xlr and rca its was easy to get two signals. It deffinently helped to widen and boost the front soundstage and actually sounded great so much so that I got the biggest center channel I could afford(emo c2, want to eventually build elusive 1099) that really filled in the center now i can see it would be great to take the concept further thanks for pushing the boundery now i wish i didn't sell 2 sets of speakers this weekend but was out of amp channels im also running 2 avrs cxa5100 main with atmos, dtsx, neox and rx800 for 5 amp channels 3 emo monos for front three awesome thread now i feel motivated ivared


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## Nalleh

Slightly updated pic


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## Nalleh

Aaaalrightythen, i had me some tuning time today 

So the subject today was to time-align the new "kid on the block": the Buttkickers.
So, i have developed a way to time align different components when it comes to tactile response. It is kind of the same way you do with speakers or subs with SPL meter or REW, where you adjust delay to where the different components align to give the highest SPL.
But you can’t measure tactile response with a SPL Meter, as it is vibrations, so instead i use a app for for my phone called Vibsensor. It’s a whole thread in here dedicated to it, but that’s another matter, i will only use it for this specific matter: to measure vibrations instead of sound pressure.

So first thing first. As with sub alignment, you first need to level the different components. So playing a 20hz sine wave and using Vibsensor, i used 3 numbers from the app, circled in red in first pic to level align all my components(named in the title):
Sono = the 2 sonosubs i have farfield.
Jbl = the 12x12" i have nearfield.
Ma = 4x Crowson MA’s under the couch
Bk = 2x Buttkicker LFE under the couch.

As you can see in this pic, they are at the same level.










And since i had alreay done this earlier, it was pretty much aligned, so adding the components together, show that the numbers pretty much "doubles" for each component added.










And funny enough, the earlier mentioned inverted phase on one BK-LFE seems to have some merit  This is just the MA’s and the BK’s (at higher leve)l to easier see what’s happening.










However this was a bit tricky as it was some differences left/right seat, and requires more tests.

To sum up:

The Crowsons lifts and moves you and the couch as one, and as such is very uniform in the movement it provides. It is G-forces affecting your body.
The Buttkicker vibrates/shakes you and as such is more «instant». It doesn’t move/lift you as much as the MA’s, it vibrates you on the spot, and for example provides more shake in the armrests, as you and the armrests aren’t "in sync" as with the MA’s.

Kind of hard to explain, but they each provide theire own feel, but also have a lot of the same. One of the them is great, and gets you most of the way, but together they really completes the ensamble


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## SBuger

^^^ Way cool! Bravo ...you da man!


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## Nalleh

Thanks 

I actually forgot to mention another thing i did this weekend. I recently showed the EQ and filters i used on the JBL’s to tame down the peak and give them a nice curve. This ended up using a 12dB HPF at 80hz, a 6 band auto-EQ from REW AND a lot of low shelfs and negative high shelfs. I used nearly all options the Minidsp had, and that meant almost no bands left for BEQ !
So i had a new go at it 
First of all there is no point of doing auto-EQ up to 120hz, if you end up with HPF at 80hz.
And instead of using a 12dB HPF at 80 and a lot of filters to bring down the 60-80hz peak, i used a 6dB HPF at 50hz, which brought down that peak a lot.
And if you use more smoothing on the REW curve you use as base for the auto-EQ, it uses fewer filters/bands. So i found a happy medium where auto-EQ used 5 bands, and i put them on the output tab on the JBL’s. This left one more band for a 8dB low shelf to bring up the ULF.
This meant i now had the ENTIRE input tab for the JBL’s cleared for BEQ duty, and the curve ended up almost exactly the same as before, so that was 5 hours well spent 

I have also moved the EQ/house curve on the other subs to the output tabs, so that mean both input tabs(AVR sub1 and sub2) are now cleared/ flat for BEQ duty and i can link those two, and thereby input the BEQ numbers on just one channel. Half the work 

And after some more testing i also found that a nice -8dB low shelf at 12 hz worked better to stop the clacking on the BK-LFE’s.

At work ATM, but will post some pics of the Mindsp settings soon.


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## SBuger

^^^ Oh heck yeah man, sounds like you made some great things happen with fewer filters and opened up ALL the 6 input slots for BEQ. Nice!!! And yes ALL filter spots are needed on most of these BEQ's lol, especially with the overcompensation PEQ or LS (its mainly been a PEQ lately it seems, which I think works great). Some need 7 spots though, IIRC Atomic Blond was one of them. That's one cool thing about the 2x4HD is that is has 10 slots on input and 10 on output. But 6 is good too on the 10x10HD, which I'm thoroughly loving with the Wi-Fi BTW!! 

Yep I've got all my PEQ's and LS's (to lift the low end up) for baseline sub corrections on the output sides too, leaving ALL 6 input filter slots open for BEQ, which are needed for sure on most of them. And yes, it does make it easier to apply them all in one spot. 

I'm now running a subout for each of my two banks of subs out of the AVR, so subout 1 and subout 2 (one for FFs and one for VNFs). I used to run them all on one subout and worked really well, but Audy does just a bit better for me if I use two subouts, one for each (of course with a little pre-Audy and post Audy tweaking with the mini's filters in addition). I know you do all yours manually and works great so you can undo sub correction in the App for your mini's for the MA's, but I have a trouble area in the 30hz range that Audy works wonders for me on that I cant do on my own in the mini (my room modes are too bad in this area). If I had one more sub I could get it done easy enough, but don't want to build or spend money on another right now and works pretty good as is with two right behind me and the other two on the side walls. 

But since I run my MA/BK combo through the Oppo subout, I have to run it through input 3. I have input 1&2 linked like you were saying so you don't have the enter the BEQs in twice, but then I have to enter it into the input 3. So takes a little more time, but once entered, I've been saving them as a config file and is good to go lickidy split next viewing session for that movie. 

Also, way cool on you using that -8db LS @12hz on the BK's to stop the clacking. If I start running into that with some of these BEQ's I'll try that (although if JW:FK didn't do it, I should be good I think).


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## Nalleh

^^Yes, i simply overdid it on the first go aorund, LOL. But what did i say about learning something each time 
Good to hear you like the 10x10 and WI-DG 
Yes, i do the same thing with sub1 for FF and sub2 for NF. I have the MA and BK on sub1 too, as my vibsensor tuning show it gave the best results there.

And on the FF output tabs i have more bands available, and somewhat like you i haven’t done full BEQ on the NF’s so far, so that fits ok anyway. So i can do more than 6 bands on the FF and MA/BK. Also this way i have seperate level control between Sub1 and sub2.
With all these changes lately i haven’t started to save the BEQ yet, as the config it starts from is still changing. But getting there 

Well, i did my last post at work last night(night shift; tired) from memory and some error creeped in. 
I STARTED with the HPF on the NF at 50hz and BW6dB, but here is what i ended up with. New on top, old on bottom:










HPF at 30hz and BW12dB ! This made the same curve as the 80hz BW12 HPF PLUSS the -17 HS i used in old setup, as seen below. New flat on top, old busted in bottom:










And here is the auto-EQ from REW. Same, new on top, old in bottom. See where the new one has a filter in band 6 instead of a biquad. Just 8dB LS was needed to equal the old busted setup curve.










And on the negative LS used on the BK: i was slightly wrong there too, LOL. I started at 12hz but playing the aformentioned Jupiter Ascending clip with a flat curve from start, while upping the BK channel level and adding negative LS. Ended up at -8dB at 18 hz. BK’s still move alot below that, but they can take more above, so you might say i boosted above 18hz .

Anyway is sounds better on all counts. Makes me wonder if i should go back and do the same process on the sonos, LOL.


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## michael1997

I can sure Nalleh is the most insane person for home theater in this entire earth.


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## Nalleh

michael1997 said:


> I can sure Nalleh is the most insane person for home theater in this entire earth.


Thank you very much


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## Nalleh

Quite a massive difference in looks between the old "bling" NU series and the new "stealth" on: NX


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## Nalleh

More testing. 
In a effort to soften the clacking from the BK’s i read somewhere someone used some rubber pads at each end inside the BK’s. So i opened them up 
Easy enough, four screws and and it divides into two pieces. Arrows show where rubber goes.










The slug inside here is what is moving up and down. It’s heavy. The black is a thin rubber pad.










Rubber.










And i am testing the BK’s mounted under the seat, instead of end of plattform. There is only room for them in the front, and even there it is thight, see red circles.


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## Nalleh

So this is a Vibsensor measurement again. MA’s vs 1 BK under the front of the seat. Playing a 20hz sine wave, level match them and check result. Same three numbers as before, marked in red.

MA’s upper left, BK upper right










Remember i mentioned earlier about having the front ones out of phase? Well, the lower left is MA and BK in phase, while the lower right is out of phase. The Z-axis is pretty much the same, but look at the Y-axis(blue circles), which more than doubles! Just as i hoped. This should mean there would be more wobble 

Look at the "raw" pic below. Z-axis is the same, but much more movement in the Y-axis.










Interesting.....


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## SBuger

Great stuff man, as always! 

So did the rubber help reduce the clacking then by a lot or fully? Any diff in feel from this?

Also, much diff in feel from them mounted directly under your seat vs on the outer platform?

Also, cant remember been too long i guess since I've messed with VS, the Y axis is front to back right? While is Z up and down and X side to side correct? 

Sorry if I missed any of the answers to these already


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## Nalleh

^^ Well, here’s the thing: If you only have 2 or 4 BK’s and mounted on such a "torque riser", with isolators under it as shown in the link earlier, i think it could be insane, by itself.

The problem here is the combo with MA’s. They are mounted with the MA’s in the rear, ie. rigid to the couch, and isolators in the front. When you combine MA’s with BK’s, the rigid rear/suspended front work a bit against the BK’s. Not optimal.

Look at the difference in what axis the two mounting of BK’s give. This is one BK at a time, nothing else.
Under seat work mostly in Z axis, up and down(same as MA’s), while end of plattform munting works mostly in the X axis, sideways.
(Yes, you are correct about the axis )










As of now i have one BK on the end of plattform, and one underneath the seat. This was not optimal either, LOL, as they worked a bit against each other, as you can understand from the pic above. So tomorrow i am mounting both under the seat, in the front, and test.
I also mentioned earlier having MA’s in the front in opposite phase to increase the "rocking chair"/ wobble effect. But the MA’s can only lift, they can not "pull", so when the rear MA’s lift, the front one will try to pull, but may end up pulling away from the couch, as the couch is not fastened to the Ma’s, it only rests on it.
But here is the kicker: the BK’s CAN pull it down, as it IS fastened to the couch, and suspended underneath with isolators(as opposed to mounting the BK’s in the rear, where it is rigid(MA’s, no isolators).
So it may be that having MA’s in the rear, isolators in the front with BK on top will be a optimal combination of the two. So far it also seems that having them mounted under the seat the BK’s operate more quiet, simply because moving each end of the plattform moves more than just the seats.

And yes, the clacking is reduced. Before it was a more metallic sound(inspite of them actually having a thin rubber pad), but now it still bottoms out, but it sound more damped, more like a punching with a rubber mallet. So you are no longer scared out of your seat when they bottom out 

I also took another approach to the negative LS on the BK’s. I started with a flat curve, lower gain, and played a 40 to 5hz sweep, while upping the gain. As they started to bottom out, i could now hear where in the FR it happened, set a -5dB LS there, and tried again. This way i could keep upping the gain and add more/higher negative LS until i was above the gain i use normally. This way it should not bottom out, while i get the most out of the rest of the LFE bandwidth.

PS: since i only have 2 BK’s, these test were done with just those 2 in the left seat, so it may change when i get 2 more . Yes, i will get 2 more, i’ll see if i can wait for a black friday deal to show up


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## SBuger

Cool, lots of good info and points here.

Yep, I found the same with BK's in the back where the MA's are (the BK's are more rigid to the chair without nearly as much suspension vs just isolators suspending the frame with the BK's. Its pretty much the only way the BK's can be mounted to my seats underneath which it very close to the MA's. Which seems to work really good together, but the BK's are more powerful, or maybe more efficient I should say (more shake at the same amp gain - I have to up the gain to get about the same effect with the MA's under the frame in the rear). If I pull the MA's out and let the BK's be suspended by just the isolators under the back underside of the armrests, then they are more efficient since they are more free to move and do their thing. That said, I still like the combo of the MA+BK better this way than just BK's suspended more freely. The way your going to try them will probably be even better I'm sure, because the more suspension you have on the BKs the better. I think that's why the BK's were so insane on my old couch in the middle seat, because 2 of them where mounted right under the middle while the MA's where off to the sides more, giving that middle section some pretty extreme flex (with light metal frame) from the BK's. 16-25hz was insane, seriously. Almost nauseatingly so at pretty reasonable levels. More so than now, even though it can still be crazy strong and I love it. Better in some ways now too though. Pro's and Con's to it all it seems. 

Sounds like your on your way to finding the 'Jackpot' setup locations to play to each others strengths, way cool!!!

And two more coming soon, nice!! Very cool that your digging what the BK LFE's can do, I thought you might if you ever tried them 

Also, cool on the negative LS on the BK's


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## Nalleh

^^ Cool, thanks for confirming about BK’s suspended vs rigid.
I am always up for new ideas, but have to admit i wondered what the BK’s could bring to the table, more than the MA’s had already, but i am happy i gave it a go 
Same with the "torque riser" idea, sounded very interesting and it has merit, but combined with the MA’s i think some of the effect is lost.

Yeah, you and me both had some restrictions, you only had room under the rear of the seat and i only under the front, LOL, but i have no dought they work either way . They are pretty violent little gadgets actually, so it’s hard to " hold them down", no matter how they are mounted.

Some bads news too: i recently discovered a noise coming from one of my MA’s  After talking to Randolph, he thinks it is blown, so i am sending it back for repairs(he thinks my amp is to big! But i don’t think there is such a thing  Besides, i blew a MA with my much smaller amp early on too, so....).
So i am down to 3 MA’s for a couple of weeks, at least. I also have 2 of the sorbothane isolators that are cracked and defect, and he mentioned the first batch of them was less than optimal, so he is sending new ones together with the reapired one.

Win some, lose some....


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## Nalleh

Ok, i think i have arrived at the final setting 

Mounted both BK’s under my left seat today. This is the best placement yet! 

During VS measurement it was not conclusive doing 20hz sine waves, as the in phase/out of phase varied over the bandwidth, some frequencies, espesially in the sub-20hz are was better out of phase, and worse above. So kind of like two different subs.

So i used sweeps instead, and here you can see how i varies. Also a steady tone has time to build up "the rocking chair" effect, while with real content the frequencies varies all the time. But it was easy to feel that the in phase setting was best with real content.
The numbers are not quite the same on MA’s vs BK’s in pic, but the point is the shape of the curve and how it changes. Title says what is used, and note the 3 numbers i always use. In phase gives highest Z-axis, and also feel most effective(i turned off X-axis to make it easier to see).










Look at the last pic; out of phase, and how the 20hz Y-axis shine. Not so much lower and higher 

But everything improved with this mounting. I don’t hear the BK’s work that much anymore, as they are under the seat(more isolated), they shakes the armrests, footrests and seat in general more than the MA’s(which lift you, but not as much shake). More immersive, if you will.
They really both have there pros and cons, and none of them can do what the other can, so together they really complete the experience. The MA’s have the wobble effect sub-10hz(and luckily the BK’s in the front doesn’t affect that, even in phase), while the BK’s has the violent shake between 10 to 25-30 hz(and they work more freely with the suspended front/isolators). With two BK’s pr seat you gain headroom, and don’t have to drive each so hard= even less noise. And they are both very impressive in what they can do 

On top of that the TR from the NF’s and "down-to-5hz" FR and PV of the FF just makes it sooo cool watching a movie.

Just did a quick test with race scene in RP1 and the attack scene in JA, and i was just smiling


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## SBuger

Well darn on the having to send one MA back for repair, but MR Crowson will fix you up, he sure did for me.



Nalleh said:


> Ok, i think i have arrived at the final setting
> 
> Mounted both BK’s under my left seat today. This is the best placement yet!
> 
> During VS measurement it was not conclusive doing 20hz sine waves, as the in phase/out of phase varied over the bandwidth, some frequencies, espesially in the sub-20hz are was better out of phase, and worse above. So kind of like two different subs.
> 
> So i used sweeps instead, and here you can see how i varies. Also a steady tone has time to build up "the rocking chair" effect, while with real content the frequencies varies all the time. But it was easy to feel that the in phase setting was best with real content.
> The numbers are not quite the same on MA’s vs BK’s in pic, but the point is the shape of the curve and how it changes. Title says what is used, and note the 3 numbers i always use. In phase gives highest Z-axis, and also feel most effective(i turned off X-axis to make it easier to see).


Nice on the sweeps to show what they are doing across the range and interaction and phase with each other. I was gonna mention that at one point instead of just 20hz or specific frequencies, but figured you probably new what was going on across the range as well. But I was thinking the white noise 0-50hz, but a sweep is great, heck maybe even better than the white noise.




> But everything improved with this mounting. I don’t hear the BK’s work that much anymore, as they are under the seat(more isolated), they shakes the armrests, footrests and seat in general more than the MA’s(which lift you, but not as much shake). More immersive, if you will.
> They really both have there pros and cons, and none of them can do what the other can, so together they really complete the experience. The MA’s have the wobble effect sub-10hz(and luckily the BK’s in the front doesn’t affect that, even in phase), while the BK’s has the violent shake between 10 to 25-30 hz(and they work more freely with the suspended front/isolators). With two BK’s pr seat you gain headroom, and don’t have to drive each so hard= even less noise. And they are both very impressive in what they can do
> 
> On top of that the TR from the NF’s and "down-to-5hz" FR and PV of the FF just makes it sooo cool watching a movie.
> 
> Just did a quick test with race scene in RP1 and the attack scene in JA, and i was just smiling


^^^ Dead on summary here Nalleh! ..pretty much my feelings on the two exactly. And yep like you say, the combo of the NF's and FF (down to 5hz for FR, fullness, weight and TR) + what the MAs + BK LFE's all bring together makes movie watching just so cool!! It brings realism to spectacular levels when they are all working together as one. 

Yes I totally agree, RP1 and JA are just so good with the combo. So many of them are really, but these two are most definitely at the top for that OMG experience!

I've been having the same kind of experiences with the Potter series lately that I'm making my way though (I'm almost to the Deathly Hallows 1 and 2). With this combo, especially when I can watch some of them during the day and listen a little louder around -12.5mv or so, it's almost hard to describe. It's like I'm really in their world experiencing it all for real a lot of times, especially with the BEQ. Some of the bass effects combined with the immersive mixes can be pretty startling and almost scary in such a cool kind of way. Some things feel ultra powerful and deep with TR, weight and fullness from the way all these components works together, plus all the nuances and subtleties and everything in between to make up some pretty extreme realism and connection to what's unfolding on the screen. Takes movie watching to a whole new level IMO!    

I can only image the experience you have now with the over the top Atmos setup you have, Congrats man!!! It's so refreshing to see someone on these threads so open to possibilities and not limit themselves to try to get the best experience possible! You are the very definition of this and I love it. Its inspiring. I've tried to do the same with my setup over the last years.


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## Nalleh

Yes, the Harry Potter movies in 4K and DTS:X has been awesome, and some of the best DTS:X demo tracks of them all, even compared to Atmos. I think i have two of them left to watch, nr 3 and 4 so i have something to look forward to still 

Right back at you, i have been very inspired by your journey and helpful tips along the way. You really don’t do things halfway, and don’t mind sharing about it either. Very cool, and i apriciate it a lot


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## eeyoreDK

I really hate you guys!
Look what you made me do!!!


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## Nalleh

eeyoreDK said:


> I really hate you guys!
> Look what you made me do!!!


WOW, 16 of them !! That should make a difference  Well done. Do you have a thread/will you do a thread about this?


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## eeyoreDK

I think that I will create a thread, but I probably won't have time to starte the build for the next couple of months.


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## eeyoreDK

My plan is to build 4 cabinets with two GT-X1200 in each, driven by two NX3000D (1500W per cabinet). These are to replace my 4 Jamo THX One subs at the front and back of the room. The Jamo's are ported and quite large. It would therefore be possible to make the cabinets around 4,3ft^3 (120 liter). Would this be a good match for two GT-X1200 or is smaller better?
The remaining 8 GT-X1200 are to be used for near field behind my seats.
What did you use for filling the cabinets and how much did you use?


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## Nalleh

eeyoreDK said:


> My plan is to build 4 cabinets with two GT-X1200 in each, driven by two NX3000D (1500W per cabinet). These are to replace my 4 Jamo THX One subs at the front and back of the room. The Jamo's are ported and quite large. It would therefore be possible to make the cabinets around 4,3ft^3 (120 liter). Would this be a good match for two GT-X1200 or is smaller better?
> The remaining 8 GT-X1200 are to be used for near field behind my seats.
> What did you use for filling the cabinets and how much did you use?


Nice, looks like a awsome place to enjoy movies 

Sure, you can do it the way you planned it, it will work very well.

But as i found out, it is better to have 8 JBL’s in 1ft3 boxes, than 4 JBL’s in 2ft3 boxes, if you have EQ and can flatten the response:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-...12-jbl-speaker-29-black-friday-bestbuy-5.html

Post 140


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## eeyoreDK

Thanks Nalleh, it is quiet nice and hopefully it will be even better when it is done.

Thanks for the tip regarding smaller boxes, it makes sense. I will build 4 boxes, each 2 ft^3 volumen, with two drivers and 1500W per box. That would allow me to almost use the full 1500W without breaking 15mm excursion.

I already use DSP for my 4 THX subs and my in room response is very close to flat between 20 and 250Hz (+/- 2,5 dB peak to peak). Unfortunately due to the ported design, I have to roll off the subs below 20Hz to avoid damaging them and the SR7010 does crossover at 250Hz.

The attached pictures shows the 4 individual subs measured from Main Listening Position (MLP). All subs without correction and all subs after MSO optimization. My other two listening positions are equally flat. Also attached is the predicted response from MSO. The MSO deviation below 20Hz was because I ended up using another filter in the EQ.


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## Nalleh

eeyoreDK said:


> Thanks Nalleh, it is quiet nice and hopefully it will be even better when it is done.
> 
> Thanks for the tip regarding smaller boxes, it makes sense. I will build 4 boxes, each 2 ft^3 volumen, with two drivers and 1500W per box. That would allow me to almost use the full 1500W without breaking 15mm excursion.
> 
> I already use DSP for my 4 THX subs and my in room response is very close to flat between 20 and 250Hz (+/- 2,5 dB peak to peak). Unfortunately due to the ported design, I have to roll off the subs below 20Hz to avoid damaging them and the SR7010 does crossover at 250Hz.
> 
> The attached pictures shows the 4 individual subs measured from Main Listening Position (MLP). All subs without correction and all subs after MSO optimization. My other two listening positions are equally flat. Also attached is the predicted response from MSO. The MSO deviation below 20Hz was because I ended up using another filter in the EQ.


If you plan to have just two in each box anyway, you might consider building them 4.3ft3 just to fill out the hole you made for them, and to gain some low end. They are still small 

Wow, nice job on the MSO on your subs! I have been looking at trying MSO, but it just seems sooo complicated to do. I’ve read the guide, but my head keeps spinning,LOL.


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## eeyoreDK

I need to keep the width and height the same as the THX subs, as they are "pedestals" for the front left and right speaker and also to fit the holes in the baffle-wall as you mention. So it will not be possible to mount more than two speakers in each box.

The depth can be varied from needed speaker installation depth to 420mm allowing for an internal volumen of excatly 4ft^3.

If I try to model 2 vs 4 ft^3 in Winisd, I will get a small boost of 1,2 dB @10-35Hz, but will reach Xmax @730W in the 4ft^3 box. In the 2ft^3 box I can use 1350W before reaching Xmax and will get a boost of 3-4dB @50Hz and above.

I don't really know which of the above is the best option. 4 of these boxes would easily reach reference level 115 dB at 20Hz and above no matter 2 or 4ft^3. If I am going to use DSP to raise the level below 20Hz it would probably be good not to have maxed out the AMP and also benefit from the small boost in low frequency for the 4ft^3 box. But since the Xmas is already reached, I might end up damaging the speakers.

Regarding MSO, just do it! It might seem like a huge task at first, but after a few trial and errors it is not that bad. Seeing what you already have done, I am confident that you will have no problems with it.


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## Nalleh

^^ Seems like you have a firm grasp of what you are doing, so i leave it up to you to decide  I think either way will give good results. I have 4x JBL on each channel of NU6K. So that would be the same as you having 2x JBL on each channel of NX3K.

And i pound on them like crazy, with Low shelf to boot, and they have no problem taking it.

BTW: i see you got the GTX model= EU model. Are you from Denmark?

BTW2: i used Poly pillows from Jysk(750 grams each). 4 in each box.


----------



## eeyoreDK

Yes, I am from Denmark, but bought the speakers in Sweden on sale (390 SEK). Far below half price compared to Denmark.

Great, I was hoping that you had used some filling from IKEA or Jysk, since you are from Norway . Makes it easy to find.


----------



## Nalleh

Cool, i was also buying from sweden (BRL.se) at the same price. I noticed they had the same 50% off discount both before and after new year.

There was also a sale on them here in Norway at the same time =366nkr, even cheaper, from Ljudia.no (they are also in Sweden).

I had 12 of them in my cart, as i was contemplating re-arranging my setup by moving the 4x SI18" nearfield, and building two new towers farfield with 12x12 JBL in each, but hey: it’s madness......

But cheap thou......

PS: straight up 366nkr amounts to ~$42, so even though that is a bit more than you yanks with $29 price, if i order from US, the shipping and taxes will still make them more expensive, and longer time to ship.

And compared to anything else available here, it it still the same incredible bargain as for you in the US.


----------



## eeyoreDK

Madness is what keeps us going  you should have bought them


----------



## Nalleh

Yeea... madness was probably 4 steps ago.... i think i am good 










(Soon to be 4x BK’s)

And you will definitely notice a upgrade in your setup when all is done and MSO’ed. Thrust me


----------



## eeyoreDK

Yes, I am sure of that. Your setup is just insane 

I plan on building two cabinets with 4 speakers each to place behind my seats for near field and drive them with a NX6000D (2x3000W 4ohm).

My seats can recline at an pretty steep angle, so the cabinets can not be more than 35cm tall. Do you think that I will loose much tactile response by not having the NF subs at chest height?


----------



## Nalleh

eeyoreDK said:


> Yes, I am sure of that. Your setup is just insane
> 
> I plan on building two cabinets with 4 speakers each to place behind my seats for near field and drive them with a NX6000D (2x3000W 4ohm).
> 
> My seats can recline at an pretty steep angle, so the cabinets can not be more than 35cm tall. Do you think that I will loose much tactile response by not having the NF subs at chest height?


That would work fine. I considered just building square boxes too, but pedantic as i am, i took some measurements of my recliner both upright and reclined, and found the best angle to fit both, so as to optimize how close the drivers would be. A angled box is more work for sure, but i had the time and opportunity, so i went for it.

With 35cm height i assume you mean a 1x4 setup pr box, instead of my 2x2 setup, so i guess your setup will be fine with a square box. I started with a 1x2 square box setup, and it worked just fine, even if the driver are down at the floor


----------



## eeyoreDK

Yes, they will be 1x4 to fit under the reclined seat. Thanks for the information.


----------



## eeyoreDK

Too many possibilities. Now I am thinking about building a near field subwoofer seat riser for the back row


----------



## Nalleh

eeyoreDK said:


> Too many possibilities. Now I am thinking about building a near field subwoofer seat riser for the back row


Sure, if you need a riser for the back row anyway, why not 

Having a riser/plattform under the MLP with 8-16 JBL firing up would be awsome. Probably insane TR


----------



## eeyoreDK

After a quick check, it seems possible to create a 2 level riser with a 12" placed between each of the 4 seats in the back row (movie theater style seats) and and one directly under each of the 3 seats (recliners) in the front row. The last two can be place behind and between the 3 front seats in the walk space with a protective perforated plate over them. All 8 12" firing upwards and sharing the same riser should create some nice TR. I get all warm and fuzzy inside thinking about building it


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ go for it. It should be insane


----------



## michael1997

keep buying receivers, your goal should be 24.4.12


----------



## Nalleh

" Just cruising along" update. So, winter in Norway, so perfect time to just stay indoors and enjoy movies 

I have had a bit of bad luck lately by having failure on two of my Crowsons in the last two months. One is repaired already, and the other blew last week. So i need to turn them down, as i am driving them to hard( i like the single digit wooble).

So i am considering ordering two more Crowsons to get a bit more headroom, and there might be some experimenting when/if they come.

Stacking anyone?.........

I also put in a order for two more BK’s last night, so will be 4 total. Some tweaking expected there too.

Other than that, just enjoying my setup.
Last week we FINALLY got an upgrade on our internet service, from a 3 Mbps. !! ADSL broadband line, to a 500 Mbps fiber-optic internet. So 4K HDR Netflix, here we come


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Yes, stacking please and let us know what you think when you get it done!  Coolrda was going to try it at one time, but don't know that he ever did.

More BK's and possibly more MA's ....oh man, I like the sounds of that!!

After I get this last round of stuff done on mine, I'm gonna start doing some Netflix too. Looks like so many good ones that are being BEQ'd by the master over in BEQ land


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ Yes, stacking please and let us know what you think when you get it done!  Coolrda was going to try it at one time, but don't know that he ever did.
> 
> More BK's and possibly more MA's ....oh man, I like the sounds of that!!
> 
> After I get this last round of stuff done on mine, I'm gonna start doing some Netflix too. Looks like so many good ones that are being BEQ'd by the master over in BEQ land


Yeah, stacking is something i have been pondering on for a while. I requires double the amount of MA’s, so it will be expensive. However, with 6 MA’s, i can do a 3+3 stack, so that is what i will try. Easy enough when i have the plattform, instead of seperate seats.

I asked Randolph about this, and some other things that others might find interesting too:



> Q1: I now have 2 MA’s in parallel on each channel for a 4 ohm load on the inuke amp. Should i rather have them in series, for a 16 ohm load?
> 
> A1: That may be a good way to make sure the power is limited. It will cut the power delivery to 1/4
> 
> Q2.: I am considering buying two more for a total of 6. I guess that would gain some headroom? (I am a Crowson addict, LOL).
> 
> A2: Adding more actuators is usually more effective than adding more power. It also helps with motion uniformity across the seats.You may need to be creative about the way you connect them (combination of parallel and series) to present the amplifier with a reasonable impedance. I can help with this if you go that direction.
> 
> Q3: Is it possible to stack them? If you have one seat, and first put two of them one the floor, then a plywood plate, then two more on top of that, and then the seat on top. Could you then use less power to get the same motion as just two in a normal setup?
> 
> A3: That is a very interesting concept. In that configuration you will get the same force output (peak acceleration) but you will move 2x the distance. The result will be better performance below 10Hz. That would be a fun experiment.
> 
> Best,
> Randolph J. Crowson


"Better performance below 10hz" !! 

SOLD!!

Here is a crude drawing. To minimize overall height, i will countersink them into each sheet.










A Crowson motion actuator has a "Xmax"(stroke) of 1/4 inch, or 6mm. Stacking them could give up to 1/2 inch, or 12mm!! That is brutal below 10hz!


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Awesome, thanks for sharing all that!! Yeah doubling the travel distance on the MAs could make a heck of a diff down low under 10hz!

Very cool on your multi-sheet/platform and countersink idea. Yeah that could really help cut down on the extra height too. I guess a router could work good for the countersink huh?

I thought about putting a full plywood or mdf sheet under my 2 seats (or soon to be 3) instead of the MA's with little pieces of plywood squares between the top of MAs and metal seat frame (what I'm currently using) as well as cutting out the extending extensions in that piece of plywood as well, to mount the BK's too that are now behind the armrests (using the 5.5" x 3' oak pieces running from front to back just underneath the armrests with BK's bolted to the back part that extends out past the back of the chair, like in that pic I showed in the BEQ thread). 

Not sure if that would give much of a different feel or not. Maybe more uniform across all seats, but them again maybe not. The way I'm doing it now is easier, but whether it's as good or not IDK.


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Yes, i can either give the stacked ones half the power for the same motion as a single layer, or give them same power for double the motion  So maybe 75% power would be the golden point 

I have a router, a very good one i used for the sono build. It should make the countersinking easy.










I will get Randolph to ship the new ones when the repaired one is ready to save some shipping 

For me, the way the couch is interlocked, it was just much easier to make a plattform, as it made motion more uniform in the seat, back, armrests and feet. And then i move the couch when watching alone, so win-win .


----------



## Mashie Saldana

Now you just need some water sprayers and fans for a full 4D experience.


----------



## Nalleh

mashie saldana said:


> now you just need some water sprayers and fans for a full 4d experience.


lol


----------



## johnnyboy632

Nalleh said:


> lol




Would love to see some new and recent shots of your setup when you get a chance 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nalleh

Finally started on a little sideproject that i have had the parts for for months.

Trigger expansion box and trigger modules for my NU6K amps 

It is a copy of the work from this thread :

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-...l-12v-relay-diy-trigger-expansion-module.html

Bunch of parts:










A bit of soldering. Got my brother to do it as i am not to good at that.










Finshed box.










Testing.










Labeling.



















And the relay for mounting inside the amps.










Mounted.










Tested everything, work like a charm, no more nasty thumps when powering off, and full control of the amps from the AVR. Now just need to make more of the trigger modules for all amps 

Wire diagram for the expansion box.


----------



## Nalleh

johnnyboy632 said:


> Would love to see some new and recent shots of your setup when you get a chance
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks wise there isn’t much news in the setup. But i can see if i can fix some new ones


----------



## amcd

Your setup is inspiring and i’m tempted to clone your sonotubes and your JBL nearfields.
As a fellow european i’m having a hard time finding those drivers at a price anywhere near what our american friends are able to get them for.
Would you mind sharing where you got yours?


----------



## Nalleh

amcd said:


> Your setup is inspiring and i’m tempted to clone your sonotubes and your JBL nearfields.
> As a fellow european i’m having a hard time finding those drivers at a price anywhere near what our american friends are able to get them for.
> Would you mind sharing where you got yours?



Thanks 

Where i got them was discussed a couple of posts ago, try checking out post 464 

But they are not on sale at the moment. You need to be pasient and wait for the sales. And then jump on it


----------



## amcd

You are right, don’t know how I missed that post.
Unfortunately it seems they only ship to the nordic countries and i’m a little further south.
If i can’t find anywhere closer with similar prices i’ll try to persuade them.


----------



## Nalleh

amcd said:


> You are right, don’t know how I missed that post.
> Unfortunately it seems they only ship to the nordic countries and i’m a little further south.
> If i can’t find anywhere closer with similar prices i’ll try to persuade them.


I know, i just got lucky finding them up here in the north , haha.

Remember there are at least 4 versions of this driver, the three in this pic + the GX1200, and they are all the same except the dustcap.


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## Bazzheyd

Holy crap! I guess my system isn’t as nice as I thought after seeing this thread!


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## amcd

Nalleh said:


> I know, i just got lucky finding them up here in the north , haha.
> 
> Remember there are at least 4 versions of this driver, the three in this pic + the GX1200, and they are all the same except the dustcap.


Thanks for this information, I knew about the CS1214 and the GT-X1200, didn’t know there were others.
I need to broaden my searches.


----------



## Nalleh

So i made more of the relay harnesses for the NU6K’s. Here’s 4 made up.










Now it was simply a plug and play operation to mount them. That is, i had to drill a hole in the back of the amp for the trigger line.










So now they all turn on and off from the AVR. Altough no more power-off-thump, there are more relay clicks now, LOL, as there is new relays both in the extension box AND the amps.

I’m happy


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## SBuger

Wow aren't you handy ...Way cool and awesome job!!!    You get them 2 new extra MAs in yet? Probably not and this is your side project until you do right


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Wow aren't you handy ...Way cool and awesome job!!!    You get them 2 new extra MAs in yet? Probably not and this is your side project until you do right


Thanks 

My brother did the soldiering on the first one with me watching, and then i made the rest myself, and they turned out great 

So nice to have it all "automated" now 

Yeah, the MA’s are actually inbound on friday, so it will be good to be back up and running.

It’s still winter here, so i will see when i can get some work done on the stack project


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## BP1Fanatic

This has got to be the best home theater thread I have ever read! The work you put in your system is incredible! Keep up the excellent work!


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## Nalleh

BP1Fanatic said:


> This has got to be the best home theater thread I have ever read! The work you put in your system is incredible! Keep up the excellent work!


Thanks , much appreciated  I feel the thread is a bit of a mess with all the changes and upgrades, and it is not a " pretty, dedicated HT room", but the point is to enjoy movies, so it works for me


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## BP1Fanatic

Exactly!


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## vn800art

Just full of inspirations and ... rabbit hole jobs done! So, having seen and been showed and talked about the enhancements done in other's systems can transform a possibility in reality for many people.
Obviously Nalleh's reality is much much more refined and complex than most of us (if any).
Kudos!
Alessandro


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## Nalleh

A little teaser about what’s up in Norway 










This weeks project. I got 6 MA’s and 4 BK LFE to attach to my couch, LOL

It’s gone be a roller coaster....


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## Nalleh

Got some more work done on "The Stack Project" 
The couch is upside down in pic, but this is how it looks. Floor> first MA> spacer board> second MA> plattform> couch. It is 2 inch higher than single layer, so i need a step in front of the couch anyway, so i didn’t bother with the countersinking idea, as it was easier and better this way.










Did the Buttkickers while i was under there, and it got a little messy, LOL.










With the added stack height, it had more room to lower the BK’s, as they were touching the chassis of the seat under load.










Complicated, but done 










Back on its feets 










Lot of fun in this pic 










In order to test 1 vs 2 layer, i had to connect 3 in series on each channel on the NU6K, which means 24 ohms !! So i am maxing out the amp !!
But i can say one thing quite clear: there is a massive difference between 1 and 2 layers! It is like Randolph said, i am gaining in the infrasonic area. I had the amp software up and watching the levels, and i am pushing it all it got, i had both clip and limit lights on, LOL, so i need more amp.. the MA’s are NOT anywhere near maxed out with this config.

But guess what: i have one more amp


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Wow, just wow!! Your my new TR hero!!!   

Fantastic job with getting everything situated and placed/stacked as well as the BK's under your seats. Very impressive to say the least ...neat, clean and super efficient looking!!! And so far, it sounds like it made quite a difference, soooooooo cool!! Will be watching for more impressions, thanks for posting this!!

Ya da man, Nalleh!!


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## avtvhdbass

It's never over with bass heads lol. What's next for you!. Looks amazing with stacked crowsons. Maybe you should 3D print a case for the crowsons instead of the rubber feets around them


----------



## ereed

Nalleh said:


> Got some more work done on "The Stack Project"
> The couch is upside down in pic, but this is how it looks. Floor> first MA> spacer board> second MA> plattform> couch. It is 2 inch higher than single layer, so i need a step in front of the couch anyway, so i didn’t bother with the countersinking idea, as it was easier and better this way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did the Buttkickers while i was under there, and it got a little messy, LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the added stack height, it had more room to lower the BK’s, as they were touching the chassis of the seat under load.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Complicated, but done
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back on its feets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lot of fun in this pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In order to test 1 vs 2 layer, i had to connect 3 in series on each channel on the NU6K, which means 24 ohms !! So i am maxing out the amp !!
> But i can say one thing quite clear: there is a massive difference between 1 and 2 layers! It is like Randolph said, i am gaining in the infrasonic area. I had the amp software up and watching the levels, and i am pushing it all it got, i had both clip and limit lights on, LOL, so i need more amp.. the MA’s are NOT anywhere near maxed out with this config.
> 
> But guess what: i have one more amp


This is first time I've seen double stack of crowsons on top of each other. Would there be a diff if you had all of them on each couch leg at same layer vs dual layer all on rear of couch?


----------



## Daniel Chaves

ereed said:


> This is first time I've seen double stack of crowsons on top of each other. Would there be a diff if you had all of them on each couch leg at same layer vs dual layer all on rear of couch?


Yeah I was wondering the same thing? I thought they needed room to expand? I was under the impression that these moved up and down every so slightly the physical seat to give you that shaking feeling, if these are stacked and the one in the middle looks to be between the two pieces of wood in a manner that doesnt allow for any expansion will it even work? or is the descriptions on these wrong and its more an internal shaker like the buttkickers? I would think one on roughly each corner would perform better as well but without seeing the results, I cant say so I am certainly curious about your setup and seeing the results. ^_^


----------



## Nalleh

avtvhdbass said:


> It's never over with bass heads lol. What's next for you!. Looks amazing with stacked crowsons. Maybe you should 3D print a case for the crowsons instead of the rubber feets around them


We actually have a 3D printer, but i think the plastic is too soft, and could not handle the up-down movement, friction vise.



ereed said:


> This is first time I've seen double stack of crowsons on top of each other. Would there be a diff if you had all of them on each couch leg at same layer vs dual layer all on rear of couch?


Yes, no matter how many in one layer, you will only get 6mm movement. Stacking gives the double. And with one on each of four corners it would move more in one axis, Z axis, while mounting them in the rear gives a see-saw effect= Several axis movement.



Daniel Chaves said:


> Yeah I was wondering the same thing? I thought they needed room to expand? I was under the impression that these moved up and down every so slightly the physical seat to give you that shaking feeling, if these are stacked and the one in the middle looks to be between the two pieces of wood in a manner that doesnt allow for any expansion will it even work? or is the descriptions on these wrong and its more an internal shaker like the buttkickers? I would think one on roughly each corner would perform better as well but without seeing the results, I cant say so I am certainly curious about your setup and seeing the results. ^_^


If I lift the couch off of the MA’s, they are all still left on the floor. The bottom MA’s, spacer board and second layer MA’s are not fastened to each in any way, all freely moving. They are only "guided" by the black plastic feets, and the metal angle brackets. It is only to hold them in placement if the couch is to be moved.


----------



## trhought

Nalleh said:


> Got some more work done on "The Stack Project"
> The couch is upside down in pic, but this is how it looks. Floor> first MA> spacer board> second MA> plattform> couch. It is 2 inch higher than single layer, so i need a step in front of the couch anyway, so i didn’t bother with the countersinking idea, as it was easier and better this way.
> 
> In order to test 1 vs 2 layer, i had to connect 3 in series on each channel on the NU6K, which means 24 ohms !! So i am maxing out the amp !!
> But i can say one thing quite clear: there is a massive difference between 1 and 2 layers! It is like Randolph said, i am gaining in the infrasonic area. I had the amp software up and watching the levels, and i am pushing it all it got, i had both clip and limit lights on, LOL, so i need more amp.. the MA’s are NOT anywhere near maxed out with this config.
> 
> But guess what: i have one more amp


Nalleh.....the ingenuity with stacking Crowsons for your "Stack Project"....off the charts! Makes me wonder how that would compare to the "BOSS", in my theater build signature below.

Would be an interesting comparison. If I had some Crowsons on hand, I'd do a "Stack vs. BOSS" shoot out.....lol. 

That was how the BOSS was born, didn't have the funds for Crowsons with kids in college but still wanted monster TR so had to get creative with the insanely priced $29 JBL's.....lol.

Looking forward to hearing more about your impressions with "The Stack".


----------



## Nalleh

trhought said:


> Nalleh.....the ingenuity with stacking Crowsons for your "Stack Project"....off the charts! Makes me wonder how that would compare to the "BOSS", in my theater build signature below.
> 
> Would be an interesting comparison. If I had some Crowsons on hand, I'd do a "Stack vs. BOSS" shoot out.....lol.
> 
> That was how the BOSS was born, didn't have the funds for Crowsons with kids in college but still wanted monster TR so had to get creative with the insanely priced $29 JBL's.....lol.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing more about your impressions with "The Stack".


Well, as i have said before i have no dought that your BOSS works very well for what it is and what it costs, but i think it is more comparable to the way a buttkicker works, as it shakes the seats. The Crowsons are quite unique in that it actually lifts the seats, and as such they give a much more physical feeling. Don’t get me wrong i have BK’s to and love them(for the most part), but they can’t do what the Crowsons can. And i don’t think your BOSS can either. And that is when talking about a normal MA setup.

Small update. I still strugle with the amp being maxed out. I have now reconfigured from 24ohm (3 in series) pr channel to 16 ohm(2 in series) pr channel, and using my spare NU6K for the third set MA’s. But 16ohm is still not good(enough), i now have something like 15% better performance than my single layer was, but as opposed to one, MAYBE two LEDS lighting up with the old setup (4ohm pr channel), EVERYTHING is lighting up now on the NX6KD, LOL.

16 ohm is still grossly underdriving the amp.
So i think i am going to try 4ohms again, and rather test with the limiters.


----------



## trhought

Nalleh said:


> Well, as i have said before i have no dought that your BOSS works very well for what it is and what it costs, but i think it is more comparable to the way a buttkicker works, as it shakes the seats. The Crowsons are quite unique in that it actually lifts the seats, and as such they give a much more physical feeling. Don’t get me wrong i have BK’s to and love them(for the most part), but they can’t do what the Crowsons can. And i don’t think your BOSS can either. And that is when talking about a normal MA setup.
> 
> Small update. I still strugle with the amp being maxed out. I have now reconfigured from 24ohm (3 in series) pr channel to 16 ohm(2 in series) pr channel, and using my spare NU6K for the third set MA’s. But 16ohm is still not good(enough), i now have something like 15% better performance than my single layer was, but as opposed to one, MAYBE two LEDS lighting up with the old setup (4ohm pr channel), EVERYTHING is lighting up now on the NX6KD, LOL.
> 
> 16 ohm is still grossly underdriving the amp.
> So i think i am going to try 4ohms again, and rather test with the limiters.


Nalleh...Thanks for the feedback. I was hoping you might take 3 of those JBL's and put on that riser you have constructed with some rubber underneath...wink....wink. You will be amazed how much vertical displacement a BOSS will deliver with authority for everyone on the platform...lol. 

You really won't know unless you try it....it's not even close to the same effect as a Buttkicker, much fuller and it feels like it's floating the entire platform, not just shaking a seat or couch. Gotta really experience it to get an appreciation for what I'm talking about. Not knocking Buttkicker, just describing the BOSS when compared to Buttkicker, not even close. 

Really curious once you get the "Stacker" going if it can deliver that weightlessness I'm talking about.

If you continue to have amp problems, all it will take is about 240 watts for the BOSS....wink...wink (80W x 3). 

Just do it.....would love to hear your impressions given all your experiences with TR and your willingness to experiment over the years....lol.


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ I think one of the DIFFERENCES with your setup compared a BK, is that you after all have several cones working, where the BK is just a mass pumping up and down. Your cones, although the have no box/very big box will move some air, and they are very close to your body, so i believe you will also add some pressure waves from those cones pumping. So in addition to tactile response from the mass moving (BK style) you will get PV from the cones pumping. This may explain why it works so well 

What i have with my JBL’s in small sealed boxes is punch! Something you can’t dream of with your mega boxes

But hey: that’s how i wanted it. A bonous is that my small boxes with some EQ actually gives ULF TR too, so win win


----------



## trhought

^^^^^Yeah, I think the other thing that's going on with the BOSS is the surface area of the cones creating pressure underneath the platform and it helps to float the platform....that's just my theory anyway....kinda' like a hovercraft....lol. I've measured over 6mm of displacement using the VibSensor but not sure how much of that is cone mass, softness of the rubber or the hovercraft effect....or a combination of all the above...lol. The most impressive thing with the BOSS is how easy it integrates with the rest of the system and how intricate it is with ULF fidelity. I continue to be amazed even when listening to the same material over and over...lol.

Probably will never know, but was hoping someone with your experience and willingness to try something out of the box would give the BOSS a test drive....especially since you have all the building blocks already...haha.

I totally understand though....hoping the "Stacker" achieves lift off, it's an impressive idea and has a lot going for it on paper with the vertical displacement potential. 

I'm one of your fans and hoping all the best with your efforts...always need options in our hobby/addiction!


----------



## Nalleh

Yeah, hey if i just now started this ULF journey, i would jump all over your BOSS patent, but if you look at the pic of the finished plattform, there is no way i could fit much more on it now, LOL.

Two things: 1. If i were to mount JBL’s magnet out like you did, did, i could only fit maximum 3 drivers, because of the couch frame.
2. If i were to mount them normal way, the riser would have to be at least 9-10 inches high, and that’s just not in the cards.

But i think my present setup will do, when i am done. Heck, i haven’t even connected the now 4 BK yet, LOL.


----------



## trhought

^^^^3 JBL's in a BOSS is plenty. That's all I'm running and on top of that platform is a rather heavy sleeper sofa and heavy recliner plus about 400-600 lbs of people depending on the day...lol. 3 JBL's has no problem moving the platform all the way down to 3Hz even fully loaded...lol.

Your Stacker is going to be insane! If you're ever looking to simplify your setup or get the riser height back down to a smaller height, the BOSS will be your friend and I think your jaw will drop when you feel it for the first time...lol.


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## Nalleh

^^does your BOSS do this:







That is with a normal MA setup


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## trhought

^^^What movie is that and what time marker......I'll try and see if it does.


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## vn800art

In the video description says: Drop scene from Lone Survivor.
Good job! Laughing seeing everything shacking, even the laptop!


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## Nalleh

Yup, Lone Survivor. Timestamp on screen in beginning of video 

Also, the laptop shows 96 dB at 6.5hz with my then PSA S3000i sub. Now i have 117dB in that scene


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## trhought

^^^Thanks guys....I was watching on my phone last night through the AVS thread....now I can see all the detail on my computer this morning...lol. I'll pick up this movie sometime this week and give it a spin. I saw this when it first came out. Looking forward to seeing it again with the BOSS and will report back on the movement I'm getting with a video. Definitely won't be able to produce the SPL but the BOSS should be able to compete with the Crowson's from the shaking I've seen in the video.


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## SBuger

Good stuff, I always love the TR talk 

I’m very intrigued with the BOSS, especially since I was so impressed messing around with my sealed 4cuft 18s down in the living room before I took them upstairs to the HT room (I kind of posted about it in the BEQ thread a while back). I know it’s not the same thing as the BOSS but still kinda related. I had them pulled out into the room kinda of like seating and cranked up enough to light up the 1rst light on the Inuke and man was it ever fantastic for TR with music when sitting on the cab. Like feel it through you’ve whole body fantastic, surprised the heck out of me actually that it was this good. It wasn’t really giving any movement at all really and wouldn’t even makes ripples in a glass of water, but it sure as heck could be felt through entire body and it was amazing how it would connect me to the music. My Crowsons or BKs don’t work as well as that, for music anyway. But I never did try running some ULF sines or ULF movie content though setting I them and I wish I wound have just to see how it felt. I don’t think it would have wobbled me because of pretty much no motion from the cab, but could still be a cool sensation maybe.

How all that would compare to a BOSS ....maybe similar feel for music but get the motion as well for the ULF for intense wobble. It just might give a great combo of both worlds while feeling super cool and realistic too. Eventually I’m gonna try it on my couch down in the living room for my small setup down there. If nothing else, I think it’ll make music an absolute blast. I could possibly try it in my setup upstairs in the HT room too at some point but have so much going on TR and motion wise with the suspended floor plus the VNFs subs behind, MAs and BKs. Basically like Nalleh’s, not including his new stacked MA approach and him not not being on suspended floor.

One thing I do know though, is that Crowson MAs are pretty darn amazing for ULF motion and feel pretty much identical to what sealed 18” subs with drivers about 1/2” to 1” away from the seat back delivers (in some ways a little better and maybe not quite as good I others). Lots of motion/movement for that very realistic and intense wobble and can feel really big and full as well. The MAs plus the VNFs combined can be pretty spectacular. The BKs can’t touch the subs in this area with them this close or the MAs for their realistic feel and full feel. At least not on my HT style seating and or at least I haven’t been able to get them to yet.

But from about 25-30hz on down a ways under 20hz, the MAs or Subs super close behind can’t touch the BKs. So a great combo if you can get them all working together. Im sure the stacked MAs with BKs will be even better.

As good as a BOSS, IDK for sure but I’d love to compare some day. I’m sure both are great with maybe one being preferred for certain material and vis-versa. Only one way to find out . It’ll be awhile but will test it out one of these days. 

VibSensor with white Noise 0-50hz, EOT intro and some ULF movie time stamps (the really good ULF and LF scenes) could be a great way for some objective comparisons for intensity as well as axis involvement. But even if they look similar, they still may feel different.


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## Nalleh

^^ I am on suspended floor 

Funny you should mention sitting on the cab: i had a somewhat similar WOW experience a while ago when i had trouble with my MA. I took them all out from under the couch and sat them on the NF cabs to investigate where the noise came from. So in order to provoke the noise i played a movie with some LFE and played with everything MUTED EXEPT the MA’s. And strange thing i HEARD LFE content !! What do you know: the MA’s on top of the cab made them vibrate and produce sound !! I was flabbergasted, pure truly sub sounds came from my NF’s !! It was like they were on, LOL. Strangest thing i have heard in a long time. So it is all related


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## SBuger

^^ LOL ...your on a suspended floor!!?? I could have swore your were on concrete with wooden floors covering it. Cool man! 

Pretty crazy about what you experienced with the MAs on the NFs. Yeah I guess ya just never know about all this stuff how it can act etc until you try something ...


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## Nalleh

Houses are probably a bit different built here in Norway than over there, but it is normal that the "main" floor is at ground level, and then there is a basement below the main floor, and that end up almost below the ground. So my basement is concrete, but everything above that is wood, including the main storey floors. And we have a second storey too. Hope you understood  

So yeah, suspended floor 

It is very noticable when i play LFE content and get up from my seat and stand on the floor, even without the MA’s on, it shakes the floor pretty good


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## trhought

SBuger said:


> Good stuff, I always love the TR talk
> 
> I’m very intrigued with the BOSS, especially since I was so impressed messing around with my sealed 4cuft 18s down in the living room before I took them upstairs to the HT room (I kind of posted about it in the BEQ thread a while back). I know it’s not the same thing as the BOSS but still kinda related. I had them pulled out into the room kinda of like seating and cranked up enough to light up the 1rst light on the Inuke and man was it ever fantastic for TR with music when sitting on the cab. Like feel it through you’ve whole body fantastic, surprised the heck out of me actually that it was this good. It wasn’t really giving any movement at all really and wouldn’t even makes ripples in a glass of water, but it sure as heck could be felt through entire body and it was amazing how it would connect me to the music. My Crowsons or BKs don’t work as well as that, for music anyway. But I never did try running some ULF sines or ULF movie content though setting I them and I wish I wound have just to see how it felt. I don’t think it would have wobbled me because of pretty much no motion from the cab, but could still be a cool sensation maybe.
> 
> How all that would compare to a BOSS ....maybe similar feel for music but get the motion as well for the ULF for intense wobble. It just might give a great combo of both worlds while feeling super cool and realistic too. Eventually I’m gonna try it on my couch down in the living room for my small setup down there. If nothing else, I think it’ll make music an absolute blast. I could possibly try it in my setup upstairs in the HT room too at some point but have so much going on TR and motion wise with the suspended floor plus the VNFs subs behind, MAs and BKs. Basically like Nalleh’s, not including his new stacked MA approach and him not not being on suspended floor.
> 
> One thing I do know though, is that Crowson MAs are pretty darn amazing for ULF motion and feel pretty much identical to what sealed 18” subs with drivers about 1/2” to 1” away from the seat back delivers (in some ways a little better and maybe not quite as good I others). Lots of motion/movement for that very realistic and intense wobble and can feel really big and full as well. The MAs plus the VNFs combined can be pretty spectacular. The BKs can’t touch the subs in this area with them this close or the MAs for their realistic feel and full feel. At least not on my HT style seating and or at least I haven’t been able to get them to yet.
> 
> But from about 25-30hz on down a ways under 20hz, the MAs or Subs super close behind can’t touch the BKs. So a great combo if you can get them all working together. Im sure the stacked MAs with BKs will be even better.
> 
> As good as a BOSS, IDK for sure but I’d love to compare some day. I’m sure both are great with maybe one being preferred for certain material and vis-versa. Only one way to find out . It’ll be awhile but will test it out one of these days.
> 
> VibSensor with white Noise 0-50hz, EOT intro and some ULF movie time stamps (the really good ULF and LF scenes) could be a great way for some objective comparisons for intensity as well as axis involvement. But even if they look similar, they still may feel different.


SBuger....yes, like you said from your experiment sitting on the subwoofer, it's hard to describe the feeling. To me it's more realistic than the behind or side VNF effects I was getting during my different subwoofer placement experiments. I just couldn't get things to feel natural with a behind or beside arrangement. It also took much more power for the same 1g TR using VB when the sub was behind or beside me. When sitting on top, the power needs aren't much at all to get the same TR and like I said the effect is more natural to me.

It's like you're floating...a feeling of weightlessness is the best I can describe it. And, that bed of air that you're sitting on responds easily and appropriately to the bass energy from the music or movies. I'm curious from Crowson owners if that's the feeling you get also...the feeling of weightlessness?


----------



## SBuger

trhought said:


> SBuger....yes, like you said from your experiment sitting on the subwoofer, it's hard to describe the feeling. To me it's more realistic than the behind or side VNF effects I was getting during my different subwoofer placement experiments. I just couldn't get things to feel natural with a behind or beside arrangement. It also took much more power for the same 1g TR using VB when the sub was behind or beside me. When sitting on top, the power needs aren't much at all to get the same TR and like I said the effect is more natural to me.
> 
> It's like you're floating...a feeling of weightlessness is the best I can describe it. And, that bed of air that you're sitting on responds easily and appropriately to the bass energy from the music or movies. I'm curious from Crowson owners if that's the feeling you get also...the feeling of weightlessness?


The BOSS will be interesting for sure! I'm gonna try it. Might be this summer or maybe this spring, but I'm def gonna try it out, especialy since it's only about 1 3/4" tall like you said in your thread. You make it sounds crazy good and if its anything like what I experienced for music like I did setting on the sub, plus hopefully the wobble movement as well for the ULF stuff to go with it, I'm sure it would tick all the boxes for me, well at least most of them. I'll explain down below a little. First I should say that my HT is mainly used for movies (like probably 99%), other than what music there is in these soundtracks obviously like The Greatest Showman, A Star is Born, Bohemian etc. So yes that's music, but I'm talking about like just listening to all channel stereo etc from pandora etc and also music CDs/MP3's etc.

So my main thing here is movie soundtracks with whatever they contain. The VNFs behind me just really do it for me (but like you, I don't love them to the side if too close, more than 4-5" away if fine though) and cant really imagine not having them in the mix. Them alone pretty much check all the boxes for me (almost), especially being on suspended floor. They bring the slam/punch and aggressive feeling (from the particle velocity I guess from being so close) plus fantastic well rounded feeling TR from higher up to way down deep into ULF. And the cool thing is I'd say its pretty much non localizable too. I do think being on suspended floor helps with this by giving more of an underneath TR feel as well besides more of just a behind you feel. IIRC, this was the main diff for the better vs when I was on concrete setup the same way with the 18s super close behind. So now, in the HT room on suspended floor, I'd give the overall edge to these sealed 18's right behind me for most realistic and full non localized feel. I absolutely love them and could probably get by with just them with no MAs or BKs in the mix (almost LOL). I ran them pretty much by themselves for ULF (unknowingly when I first started getting into BEQ). I didn't have my MA.s turned up enough in the mix to really even feel them by themselves or combined). I thought they were contributing a lot in the ULF department but they weren't and I was elated with the ULF TR the subs were giving me and went on and on about in some of my posts in the BEQ thread LOL. Now that I've got the MAs up close to the subs intensity level, when combined (and timed better), it's even better and quite a bit stronger. The combo really is awesome and I can't imagine it being much better, but the BOSS may be  I hope it is and I'm definitely going to try it. If it is as good or even better, then a win win for sure ...cheaper by far and probably easier to integrate it. 

So as far as the feel the Crowsons create (and the VNF 18's as well on suspended floor), I don't know that I would describe them as weightlessness or even floating on a bed of air (Nalleh might), maybe kind of sometimes, but it's more just awesome feeling ULF wobble for TR/movement and in the LF as well that you feel really connected to and can be quite intense if pushed, while still natural feeling. It feels great and 'right' (when all integrated well) to me but would be interesting to compare the feel between the two for sure!! That is the best I know how to describe it for the ULF TR other than saying in the 10-14hz ish frequencies it can give me an amazing pull me down through my seat feel that I absolutely LOVE. Would be interesting to see if the BOSS would give me this as well. It sure may, and maybe even better  

Another thing that I'm super keen on about the combo of the VNFs behind, plus the MA's and then the MAIN component responsible for what I'm fixing to try to describe, is the BK LFE's. It's a feeling that the VNF subs and MA's can't quite give me (well I shouldnt say can't, I just haven't been able to get them to yet) on their own or even combined. It's a feeling that I don't even know if I can describe accurately that makes sense, but I'll try. It's mainly centered in between 12-25hz and the BKs, well just kick major butt in this department LOL. It creates (especially when combined with the VNF and MAs) a violent/intense (or whatever you want to call it) feeling in my stomach and even chest area (kind of like mid bass slam in a way) that give me an almost panicky type of feeling. It can make me squirm in my chair and involuntarily tense up. This may not sound very pleasant or even desirable, but it's actually quite amazing and adds such a cool element of intensity to the bass that just otherwise lacks in comparison without them being in the mix. I'll even go as far as saying I like this sensation more than ULF wobble, and I LOVE ULF wobble power. Now that I've experienced this, it's just not the same for me without it and feels like its missing an important ingredient on these movie bass tracks. There are a couple specific scenes I can tell you where it gives this feeling to give you an idea of where in a track it might happen. Their are tons more in this and a lot of other movies, but here are a few sure fire ones that do it for me big time if I have my BKs dialed into the mix well. 

In the movie Batman vs Superman, at the beginning of the movie during the first gun shot when it's in slow motion, it brings on that feeling that I was trying to describe big time, even at lower volumes. Also in this first chapter when he is driving that car thorough all the craziness in the city, when he drives through the fire, it again bring this same time of feel and the intensity that is out of this world cool, and its mainly form the BKs. The VNFs and MAs add to it too, but its just not nearly as intense without them in the mix. 

Whether or not the BOSS can give me this, IDK. I hope so!!!  I'm sure when I try the BOSS I'll also try it with my VNFs behind me as well (at least in my HT setup upstairs), cause I do love these things and cant picture not having them like I was describing above. I'm sure I'll try it in many combinations though and will keep you posted when I do. Should be way fun and I'm really looking forward to it.

Another thing I just tried briefly yesterday was adding my mbm ported tuned to about 50hz or so back into the mix right behind me stacked on top of my sealed 18". I haven't used it in the last year or so because I was having trouble integrating it into my system, but somehow worked wonderfully yesterday and now just needs a little fine tuning to get the sound just right but keep all the CHEST FEEL it brings. I used to run it in my setup downstairs and it was so intense it would make my chest ache for quite a while after a pretty short demo session. Might have been a bit too much and kind of scared me when it kept happening, but I absolutely loved the aggression it added to the chest cavity  Up until yesterday I haven't been able to get this violent feel in the chest cavity (even though still real good with the 18s right behind me) up in this new HT room (I've been up here for a couple years now I think). It brought that insanely awesome and yes even scary feel back that I loved so much when I used to run it downstairs. Kind of like the BK feeling I was trying to describe up above, it brings it too in a little different way but is center in the chest cavity. It's the craziest feeling ever, it like pressurizes your chest cavity and brings on a sense of panic and heart race as well and is quite exhilarating!! And surprisingly non localizable and doesn't feel like a kid in back of your chair annoyingly kicking it. 

There really is just something special about a ported sub at and around its tune for intensity and violence when very close behind you and can be scary, in a good way of course 

We'll see how it goes over the next couple of days with it. I need to post an update in my room thread here pretty soon with all the new recent additions but just haven't had a chance yet. Lots of company and whatnot lately and haven't been able to work on all this stuff as much as I'd like.

Anyway, I didn't mean to get so carried away with all this but seems to be how I roll when I get excited about all this HT TR stuff and whatnot LOL. Hope you don't mind Nalleh since this is your thread!! You seem to love all this stuff as much as I do though so hopefully you'll be ok with it


----------



## trhought

^^^^SBuger....Thanks....I always enjoy reading your descriptions of your experiences with TR and how all the TR instruments you have at your disposal can deliver different effects. Truly inspiring! Yours and Nalleh's setup are both inspiring. 

Hopefully your BOSS will be one more tool to add to your TR toolbox for even more different effects and at a great value. I think you will be very impressed, even with the chest slam. When listening to well-mixed music, the kick drums give me that coughing/rattling sensation in my lungs when sitting on either the back row BOSS or front row BOSS....awesome feeling!

And, yes, plenty of single digit TR also with the BOSS. I just posted some videos in my build thread showing both BOSS's in action, using the EOT scene you mentioned and also the Lone Survivor scene Nalleh used.

I'm going to check out that scene from Batman vs. Superman....can't wait....Thanks for the hot tip on what to listen/feel for.


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## SBuger

trhought said:


> ^^^^SBuger....Thanks....I always enjoy reading your descriptions of your experiences with TR and how all the TR instruments you have at your disposal can deliver different effects. Truly inspiring! Yours and Nalleh's setup are both inspiring.
> 
> Hopefully your BOSS will be one more tool to add to your TR toolbox for even more different effects and at a great value. I think you will be very impressed, even with the chest slam. When listening to well-mixed music, the kick drums give me that coughing/rattling sensation in my lungs when sitting on either the back row BOSS or front row BOSS....awesome feeling!
> 
> And, yes, plenty of single digit TR also with the BOSS. I just posted some videos in my build thread showing both BOSS's in action, using the EOT scene you mentioned and also the Lone Survivor scene Nalleh used.
> 
> I'm going to check out that scene from Batman vs. Superman....can't wait....Thanks for the hot tip on what to listen/feel for.


Thanks Tim, and ditto on your system and descriptions as well!! Inspiring stuff indeed!!

You videos you posted are awesome and look a lot like Nalleh's!! Very impressive!! Only had time to check them out super quick, but will try to comment more on them later tonight in your thread. Thanks for posting them and makes me even more excited to try the BOSS 

On another note, just tried my mbm positioned behind me again today and think its just as good with no mbm and just the 18's while sounding cleaner. Ha, just goes to show I think we experience things differently from day to day sometimes, depending on our moods or whatever. Will make it easier with one less sub (mbm) to integrate into the mix. I'm ready to finish up this new gear stuff and just enjoy some content (BEQ'd) for a while  Then will try the BOSS later this spring or summer.


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## Nalleh

No worries guys, we are here to discuss these thing, so it’s all good.

And i agree with everything @SBuger said. I wonder if we are twins seperated at birth, as we have uncanningly similar preferences and thoughts about all of this, LOL.


Small update again.

Got a little tune time in today with Vibsensor. I have separated the layers, so i can test with each and both. There seems to be slight differences between bottom layer and top measurements, and i suspect it is becouse the MA are kind of springy when not active, so the layer not active affects the active one.
Anyway it is clear to see that dual layers gives more movement than a single layer.

Here is White Noise 0-50 hz, what layer is active is in pic name.










Sweep 0-60hz.










6.5hz.










15hz.










Dual layer measures pretty equal to one layer, only louder. It is indeed like turning on a second setup(as that is exactly what is happening).

Anybody wanna see the response from the MA directly? Here is measurement with the Iphone directly ON the MA.










So after this i connected the amp like i had it before, two MA’s in parallel pr channel, including one channel on the second amp, and finally got the 4 BK’s connected to my spare amp, and started tuning.

WOW !! 6x NU6K, 6x MA’s, 4x BK’s is REALLY starting to get violent, LOL. It is so precise, linear, visceral, gut wrenching and jaw dropping, it is insane, LOL. I only tested with a few clips earlier, but holy moly this is fun. The earth shaking feeling from the MA’s deep down low, combined with the "slap me from behind" and violent punch from the BK’s is truly fun to experience. They really fill out each other perfectly  And yes SBuger, it did help with 4 of them, compared to the 2 i had earlier. You were right  Man they can shake things around, having a remote control laying on the couch centersection is hopeless, LOL.


I am a gadget man, so i got a little package in the mail the other day.










It is a bluetooth barbecue temp sensor kit with 6 sensors  So now i can monitor temps on each MA, and do it from my phone, LOL.










I can even monitor it over time 










It was very easy getting up and running, and they are already mounted on the spacer board to each MA, and it was much more responsive than the outside temp kit i have used up until now. Awsome


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## trhought

^^^^Nalleh....Congrats on getting the "stacker" up and running. I bet that's insane experiencing the shear power of sitting on that stacked platform with all that displacement. Plus, VNF, plus buttkickers....WOW!

Another great idea using the temp probes for monitoring the MA's....I probably would have done the same thing after losing an MA like you did....lol.

Looks pretty straight forward and will definitely provide peace-of-mind going forward!

Enjoy your new setup and Congrats on the Stacker!


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## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> No worries guys, we are here to discuss these thing, so it’s all good.
> 
> And i agree with everything @SBuger said. I wonder if we are twins seperated at birth, as we have uncanningly similar preferences and thoughts about all of this, LOL.
> 
> So after this i connected the amp like i had it before, two MA’s in parallel pr channel, including one channel on the second amp, and finally got the 4 BK’s connected to my spare amp, and started tuning.
> 
> WOW !! 6x NU6K, 6x MA’s, 4x BK’s is REALLY starting to get violent, LOL. It is so precise, linear, visceral, gut wrenching and jaw dropping, it is insane, LOL. I only tested with a few clips earlier, but holy moly this is fun. The earth shaking feeling from the MA’s deep down low, combined with the "slap me from behind" and violent punch from the BK’s is truly fun to experience. They really fill out each other perfectly  And yes SBuger, it did help with 4 of them, compared to the 2 i had earlier. You were right  Man they can shake things around, having a remote control laying on the couch centersection is hopeless, LOL.



LOL good one man, or shall I say long lost twin bother hahahha We do seem to share very similar preferences and thoughts about all this stuff 

Nice update on the MA stack! Thanks for posting the VS readings of each top and bottom and them the stacked combo. Very cool to see this and the differences of each plus combined. 

Looks like with the bottom and top layer combined its giving you around 6db more on most readings, which is great. 6db more of TR can feel like a LOT!!! I'm sure it's really gonna help down ultra low into the singles!! 

Sounds like it feels like it too and pretty amazing with the addition of 2 more BKs as well. Very cool, congrats and fantastic job on it all!! Also way cool about keeping track of the temp on all the MAs too since they have a tendency to get hot with heavy use. After running mine pretty hard the other day I was curious how warm or hot they would feel and was kinda worried they may super hot. But for mine I had to get down on the ground and feel them up under the seating. Weren't hot at all which made me happy 

Ya know, its pretty crazy how similar our VS readings look on white noise 0-50hz. I've haven't VS'd mine yet with the addition of two more MAs and other goodies, but ran one on the MAs+BKs as well as a subs only a while back to see what it looked like. I think it's our suspended floors giving us that Z-axis TR spike down close to 10hz. Well I know it is on mine because I've VS'd these same seats with MAs and BKs down in my living room on concrete before I brought them upstairs and it did not have that large increase. Mine is just a little lower than yours between 10-14hz peaking about 12 to 13hz and yours look to be between about 12-17hz peaking at 15hz. 15hz to 17hz is such an important area that I'd take yours over mine, but I have a ton of fun with the 10-14hz peak, especially with BEQ as I'm sure you do with yours. Or I guess you could look at yours like maybe having a little bit of a dip between 17hz and 30hz and higher elsewhere. Either way, I really think it's the suspended floor at work here. I don't know if you seen where me and Master BEQ'er Aron and I were talking about this a little bit in the BEQ thread not to long ago, but thought suspended floor can be great in areas and actually hinder some in others. Seems crazy, but I really think it can from experiencing both concrete and suspended floor with the same gear. As much as I love my suspended floor, I do sometimes wish I was back on concrete where the VNFs, MAs and BKs were responsible for all TR and is very even. I'm not really complaining as I do love the suspended floor in a lot of ways and is fun, but if I had my choice I'd probably go back to concrete if I could since all these components we use are so very capable and so great at what they do without any help. 

To give you an example of how similar our WN0-50hz VS graphs look and what I'm talking about, check out these two. First is with MAs + BKs and the second is with Subs only. They both on their own read about the same with the big Z axis peak from 10-14hz. Crazy flooring! ! Oh yeah, I usually run my VS with my seats reclined since that is how I watch movies and it brings the over 30hz TR down a little too compared to setting in the fully upright positions. I don't remember how much for sure, but does a little bit a least. Crazy how everything can sometimes really have an effect on your TR. 

MAs and BKs only ...









Subs only ...









Levels are different than yours, but I had mine set to m^2's instead of g^2's, which makes the actual intensity between ours a lot more similar I think. Switching from one to the other changes it about 20db. coolrda and d00d started doing this in the VS thread before it slowed way down a couple years ago and I've just kinda left mine set like that.


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## Nalleh

Thanks guys 

Awsome post @SBuger (as usual), and yes i agree it is the suspended floor showing the peak. If you compare to the "direct on MA result", it is clear that a lot of things affect the curve, like seats, floors, mounting, isolators etc. As i said to Coolrda earlier when we compared results ; still after all that it is amazing how similar the results are when the only thing in common is the MA’s.
Thanks for showing your results, as you said it is more similar than not. Amazing.

And as you can see, using WN0-50hz or sweep gives rather similar results too. I am wondering if sweep can actually be better, as it gives one frequenzy at a time, rather than all at once. Anyway, seems like both is perfectly usable.

Also look a the 6.5hz vs 15hz: as me and Coolrda also discovered when we compared how the amp affect the curve, below ~10hz the Y and X axis is the dominant ones, while above 10 the Z axis is dominant. This is the see-saw effect of mounting the MA’s in the rear only, and it’s awsome too 

Doing my test last night it seems the bottom layer heats up slightly faster than the top layer in the beginning. I was wondering if that could happen: the top layer works as in any setup, only affected by the weight above it. The bottom layer, each time it tries to expand, it not only fights the weight above, but also the top layer trying to expand. When the top layer tries to expand it excerts force both up and down(normally the floor), and in this case against the bottom layer. This is why i asked Randolph about it, but since he gave the ok, i didn’t think more about it. Not a big problem, but something to be aware of. I only discovered this because of the exellent new very responsive temp control i have now 

Came to think about it, when the top layer tries to expand, where there normally is a steady floor below, there is now another MA trying to expand "the floor" below, so maybe it will be kind of the same...


And yes: a suspended floor is "flexing" when the MA’s tries to expand, so in that regard, a concrete floor is better for MA’s to work against=no flex!

Yeah, about seating position, i actually measure seat up, not reclined, and i sit in the left seat and measure the right seat. So things like that can of course also affect the measurement. But still ours are similar, LOL.
And about the lower level i have: i knew there were going to be a lot of measurements, so i didn’t go all "Mad Max" on the levels. Anyway the point was the differences 1 vs 2 layers.

The BK’s... man if i use the negative LS down low to avoid the bottoming out, holy cow they are insane! I actually have to say in that respect they are more impressive than the MA’s! Like you say between 12-30 hz, i don’t think the MA’s can touch them, LOL. They bring so much violent, visceral impact it just brings a smile to my face each time. It sure brings you more into the action, LOL.

I pounded on them A LOT last night, and they don’t even get warm! At all ! And i run a whole NU6K on them now, LOL.

I never though they could compete with the MA’s, or that having both could work together, but they are a match made in heaven 

And yes, you need to update your thread, man 

EDIT: yup, you are right, i tried changing to M/s2 and the numbers are pretty much like yours. Good call


----------



## Nalleh

Fun fact: if anyone wondered what was up with the angled pieces i mounted the BK’s to:










Remeber my plan was to mount BK’s at each end of couch? (See earlier pics of when plattform was done). Well, since i now mount them under the seat, i cut of the ends of the plattfrom protruding on each side of the couch. So i stood there holding one of those pieces, looked at it and thought: hey, these already have multiple hole patterns for BK’s, why not just use them, instead of making new ones? 

So that is why those pieces are painted black and all those angles on them: doesn’t matter, as they are mounted out of sight 

Recycling, man


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Thanks guys
> 
> Awsome post @SBuger (as usual), and yes i agree it is the suspended floor showing the peak. If you compare to the "direct on MA result", it is clear that a lot of things affect the curve, like seats, floors, mounting, isolators etc. As i said to Coolrda earlier when we compared results ; still after all that it is amazing how similar the results are when the only thing in common is the MA’s.
> Thanks for showing your results, as you said it is more similar than not. Amazing.
> 
> And as you can see, using WN0-50hz or sweep gives rather similar results too. I am wondering if sweep can actually be better, as it gives one frequenzy at a time, rather than all at once. Anyway, seems like both is perfectly usable.
> 
> Also look a the 6.5hz vs 15hz: as me and Coolrda also discovered when we compared how the amp affect the curve, below ~10hz the Y and X axis is the dominant ones, while above 10 the Z axis is dominant. This is the see-saw effect of mounting the MA’s in the rear only, and it’s awsome too
> 
> Doing my test last night it seems the bottom layer heats up slightly faster than the top layer in the beginning. I was wondering if that could happen: the top layer works as in any setup, only affected by the weight above it. The bottom layer, each time it tries to expand, it not only fights the weight above, but also the top layer trying to expand. When the top layer tries to expand it excerts force both up and down(normally the floor), and in this case against the bottom layer. This is why i asked Randolph about it, but since he gave the ok, i didn’t think more about it. Not a big problem, but something to be aware of. I only discovered this because of the exellent new very responsive temp control i have now
> 
> Came to think about it, when the top layer tries to expand, where there normally is a steady floor below, there is now another MA trying to expand "the floor" below, so maybe it will be kind of the same...
> 
> 
> And yes: a suspended floor is "flexing" when the MA’s tries to expand, so in that regard, a concrete floor is better for MA’s to work against=no flex!
> 
> Yeah, about seating position, i actually measure seat up, not reclined, and i sit in the left seat and measure the right seat. So things like that can of course also affect the measurement. But still ours are similar, LOL.
> And about the lower level i have: i knew there were going to be a lot of measurements, so i didn’t go all "Mad Max" on the levels. Anyway the point was the differences 1 vs 2 layers.
> 
> The BK’s... man if i use the negative LS down low to avoid the bottoming out, holy cow they are insane! I actually have to say in that respect they are more impressive than the MA’s! Like you say between 12-30 hz, i don’t think the MA’s can touch them, LOL. They bring so much violent, visceral impact it just brings a smile to my face each time. It sure brings you more into the action, LOL.
> 
> I pounded on them A LOT last night, and they don’t even get warm! At all ! And i run a whole NU6K on them now, LOL.
> 
> I never though they could compete with the MA’s, or that having both could work together, but they are a match made in heaven
> 
> And yes, you need to update your thread, man
> 
> EDIT: yup, you are right, i tried changing to M/s2 and the numbers are pretty much like yours. Good call



Thanks man 

Yeah I'm thinking a sweep might be the best too. I haven't tried one yet, but now should be super easy with REW since I'm now running them through the AVR instead of the Oppo.

Good point on the x and y axis being dominant at 6.5hz and Z above 10hz!

Pretty cool that you were able to tell the ones on the bottom get hotter than the top with your temp sensors! Makes sense they way you described it.

Awesome that your loving the BKs so much in that region. Man they really are just killer in that area and crazy what they can add huh!! I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE them for this!! And yeah you can beat the crap out of them and they don't get hot at all. I've been doing this to them for years LOL. Definitely another thing/pro they have going for them! 

Good stuff man!! 

LOL yeah I really do need to get my thread updated with all the new stuff. Need to get all my pics together and take a few more first though along with a few other things. I just keep messing with stuff instead of getting it done. And speaking of which and the BK's, you know how much I love mine by now right!? Well, I'm not sure what's going on but they are feeling pretty jerky to me lately, like not very fluid and seems to be getting worse. I've noticed this over the last couple months or so and seemed to get even worse today. That is part of the reason I recently mounted them back behind me to see if it would help. That and I could feel them a little too much in my legs at times the way I had them mounted to the inner frame before. But I don't really remember that being a problem in the past either, and for sure not jerky. It's not cool and making them feel unnatural and wrong with stuff under 20hz (I think this is mainly where I feel it). 

It's seems like they may need some lubrication/grease or something. It's so strange, I've never experienced this with them before. This has got to be the case, at least I sure as heck hope so, because my systems TR is just not the same without them in the mix. I did see where someone used white lithium grease on their LFEs before, but I think that was to kill a rattle that started but said they got smoother too. I don't hear any rattle (I don't think so anyway), but they sure seem to not be working right. Thoughts on this Nalleh? I think I may try the grease and maybe email buttkicker too and ask them about it. This is really starting to annoy me and drive me nuts, because I LOVE these things and is a huge part of the TR experience in my system. As you now know, they can add so much. I really hope I can get this worked out soon :/ Either the grease and or mounted a different way or something!

Cool on your fun fact BTW, and the BK's look awesome mounted like that too!! Seriously!!


----------



## Nalleh

^^ I wouldn’t rule out that they just need a little lube job  I have read others do that after years of use. Even if they don’t get that hot, they simply dry out from usage. So i would definetely try that first. It is easy enough to dismantle them, just 4 screws, and cut all the stickers, and it should come apart. I’ve had all mine apart to install the extra rubber dampers, so it is easy to do 
It makes sense if you have used them for several years. Mechanically they should be indestructable, as there is just one moving part, LOL, so couldn’t be a simpler construction 

But hey, a small service every other year isn’t that much hassle


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Cool, will try it for sure then. Well two of them I've had for 4-5 years so tons of use on those two and I think and the other two almost 2 years I think. With all 4 connected and going, I'm not sure which is which now lol

Will just lube all of them. I saw where one dude said he just sprayed in a bunch of that white lithium grease into the holes (advise from Buttkicker ), probably the ones on top. There are 4 holes on top and 4 on bottom of the BK that go into the inside. Just works it's way down I guess.

Yeah I remember you saying a while back that you put in some extra rubber dampers. Mainly just to help with noise right?


----------



## Nalleh

That is a great idea and should work, if the lube is somewhat liquid, look at the pic:










There is clearence trough the holes to reach with a spraytube or something 

Yes, the rubber dampers was to soften the clacking when it bottoms out, and it helps a lot. Changed the clacking from very hard metallic sound to more like "knock on wood" sound, so i don’t soil myself when it bottoms out, LOL.


----------



## Nalleh

Stack review 

Today i finally got some time to watch a whole movie since i started the Crowson Stack Project. Just been some testing, tweaking and short clips until today. That is all fine and dandy, but in order to really get a impression of differences, you need to relax and enjoy a movie.

So i put in THE MEG, as i saw that not to long ago and really liked it. Last time i watched it was the day i blew a MA, and i may have run a little hot on the MA’s with BEQ and all, but up until it blew,it was insane, so i was excited to see how the Stack compared.

In addition to the Stack i have doubled up on the BK’s too, so there is 4 of them, but they contribute mostly above 10-12hz. Below that is all Crowsons.

And holy cow did the Stack live up to the expectations ! And more! Randolph was right, the displacement i get now below 10hz is off the charts. It is like the ULF has texture now, like it embodies you, it goes into the bones, you are part of the sound  the difference is massive, last time i watched The Meg, i was like : «yes this is more like it, now we are getting somewhere», and up until then that was one of the best LFE/ULF experiences i have had. But like i said, i overdid it 

This time though: it topped the last time i SPADES! And the MA’s didn’t even struggle, the temp barely raised a couple of degrees, not even a issue. And compared to last time, i have even turned the amps down, less LS and still they POUNDED!

Granted the BK’s are also better in spades, BIG difference between 2 and 4, and i actually have turned them down too, LOL, but as noted earlier, they are more effective from 12-30hz.

With BEQ, The Meg has plenty of wooble, and the Stack truly has so much authority now, the deep tones are more pronounced, "analog" in a way. Before there could be a ULF effect and it was like : that was nice, but now it is like that all the time, everything, even not so loud effects has true weight to it, they feel more complete, more nuances and more effortless and smooth, you can truly feel that they work less, and gives more 

It was so much fun to watch it again, and to know that where i actually broke my gear last time, it was not even breaking a sweat this time, while giving me a thorough beating to booth.

For fun, i also checked out one of my favourite demo scenes for the MA’s : Big Friendly Giant. I love that movie, and the UK version has both 3D and Atmos. Awsome 
Anyway, there is a scene at 39:45 that has a insane wooble, and i did a Vibsensor of it back then with 4 MA’s. Now, when i did the VS today, it was with BEQ, but back then i had a hefty LS on them, so it isn’t quite comparable, but anyway, here it is:










The numbers have improved so much, it’s not even funny, LOL.
In the old VS i was very impressed with the Y-axis peak at 8.5hz, it was like a rocking motion trying to throw you out of the seat. But look at the number now, altough that y-axis is no longer a peak at 8.5hz, it is so much bigger, and the extension is so much deeper in the Z-axis, holy moly. Major difference, LOL.

I believe it is safe to say that the Stack Project has merit


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Awesome man!!!!

Sounds like a better experience in all areas TR with the stack'd MAs plus 2 more BKs to boot. Thanks so much for posting your impressions along with the VS results ...you know how much I (both of us) like this sort of thing 

Job well done and I'm so happy for you that you got the results you were looking for and then some it sounds like! Kudos dude!!! Yeah I bet The Meg with BEQ is truly insane now! I love that one and is one of my favs for awesome ULF TR. Very cool on BFG as well!!

You've got me hyped for sure  Fixing to be away from my system for a little over a week which is gonna be hard lol, but when I get back I'm gonna be all over this if I can make it happen before we really get into the move if its going to happen like I mentioned in my thread the other day. 2-3 things I'm planning on trying. One is the stack of MAs like you did since I've now got 6 and should work pretty good I think, as well as the BOSS. For the BOSS I think I'm gonna go all out with a single seat first (will be easier to test this way) and gonna try one of my 18's. Will pull one form one of my 4cuft cabs to use in the BOSS and power it with the inuke6K. If I can make it fit in the low rise version I'll just do that, but may not fit because of too much magnet size up under the seating. If not I'll put it in a riser style mount. Will raise me off the ground a fair amount but should be fine and if It's amazing it'll be worth it.

My experimentation desires for TR are running wild now because you and Tim , LOL. Bad timing though with vacation closing in and all the other. But exciting times none the less. I do love this stuff and will get to try it all out at some point at least, hopefully sooner than later!!  

Again, awesome job Nellah!! Bravo!!


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Thanks, Bug 

Haha, yeah i guess you will be in agony on your vacation, thinking about your setup and plans ahead, LOL. I too hate being away from my HT.

Sound very exciting about your plans with both the 6xMA and BOSS  


But i have to say, based on today movie watching, i am happy with my TR.....for now... 


That is: one more thing i want to test is if it would improve to also stack the isolators  i’ll see if i can get it done in the near future.


----------



## Nalleh

Couldn’t help myself, so today i stacked the isolators too 



















Watched Harry potter 3 and 4 after, and my initial impression is stacking the isos helped too. No measurements yet, but it seemed to dig deeper in the single digits 

These were the last HP i haven’t seen in UHD with DTS:X and they are all awsome DTS:X demo discs. Nr 3 had some cool woobles with BEQ, nr 4 not so much but still plenty LFE 

And also you can see the BK in the pic above.

Good times


----------



## Nalleh

LOL, had to update this again :


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Impressive!


----------



## Nalleh

I mailed a copy of the stack review to Randolph, and here is his reply:



> Hi Jan,
> Very interesting results. I really respect your creativity and ingenuity. You certainly took it to a new level. Bravo!
> I hope you're having fun with it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Randolph J. Crowson


I guess he approves


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## aron7awol

@Nalleh Since you've pushed your MAs harder than anyone else I know and even killed a couple, I want to ask. Have you ever bottomed them out?


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## Nalleh

aron7awol said:


> @Nalleh Since you've pushed your MAs harder than anyone else I know and even killed a couple, I want to ask. Have you ever bottomed them out?


Good question. I can’t say i have ever heard anything resembling bottoming out. I the early days of testing i did run them into thermal overload, but i did not hear(or feel) any bottoming.
Kind of strange when you mention it, as either the thermal overload or when i broke them would suggest they were bottoming out, but in my case, if they did, it was noiseless.

The BK’s on the other hand, boy do they let you know when they are bottoming out, LOL ...


----------



## aron7awol

Thanks for the info. I've seen you mention xmax of 6mm on the MAs. Did you get that info from Randolph or was that something you measured? The reason I'm asking is you might remember me mentioning a bottoming-out type of feeling through my seating on certain bass hits if I turn my Crowson amp even one more notch. I was never sure if it was a resonance in my seating, the MAs bottoming out, or the amp clipping, so I did some testing today. I ruled out the seating today, and even pulled one of the MAs out from under the seating and played the same test with my hand on it and I could feel the same thing. It didn't seem like it moved that much though, so I'm wondering if it was amp clipping. But what's strange is I used to run my MAs a lot harder and this didn't happen, so I'm kind of stumped. Next test will have to be hooking up one of my NX3000Ds to them and see what happens.


----------



## Nalleh

Yes, i remember you mentioned it. Well, the first time i blew one of mine it was dead! I used a much smaller amp in the beginning, and i believe it was clipping bad, and Randolph mentioned that could blow the MA’s. The last two times though, they still worked perfectly fine.... up to a point. Up until that point, no noises or anything, nothing that would suggest they were faulty. But when turned up for movie time and the LFE hit, they would make a clacking sound. Even then, just turning them down 4-6dB, and all sounded fine again. Strange thing...

But you use the Crowson amp, which has limiters and what not, and Randolph said they almost never had faulty MA’s when used with their amp.
And if you said it didn’t happen before, it might suggest something happened. I would contact Randolph. @SBuger also had some faulty ones, if i remember correct and he had "reduced" performance, but got it fixed.

Edit: info on xmax was first mentioned by coolrda i believe, and it was in the patent paper too. They also have another website, Controlled Vibration or something and that has some more info on the units.


----------



## aron7awol

Uh oh, that sounds an awful lot like my problem. They are perfectly fine the vast majority of the time, but then on certain hits, that clacking sound/feel is terrible! What's really strange is yesterday when I was testing with the particular hit from San Andreas, I even isolated the frequencies involved and tested negative PEQs at the 3 different frequencies to see if I could figure out which of them was causing it, but reducing each of them individually and testing, it didn't seem to make a difference.

This is very concerning. I think I will test them to see if all of the MAs are doing it or just one or two, and I'll also contact Randolph as you suggest. I'm surprised this is happening considering I've only used the Crowson amp, and I don't feel like I push the MAs that hard. When I first got them I pushed them much harder and they handled it easily.

Thanks for that info on Controlled Vibration. I found the info you're talking about, 6.4mm peak-to-peak. 

I appreciate all of this info you are sharing to help shed some light on my issue.


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## Nalleh

Ok, sounds awfully familiar 

I did a video showing the noise that i sent to Randolph, and he identified it as a blown voice coil. He felt i used a too big amp, and that may have casued it, so i did not get the repair on the warranty, but since you use their amp, you may be luckier 

I now use the compressor on the Minidsp, activated at -25db, and i have also turned down the amps ~6-8 dB, but still get a lot more dispalcement because of the stacking. I watched Hunter Killer this weekend, and just finished both HTTYD’s, all with BEQ, and the TR was insaaane, and still: temperature was the same, no increase  i was actually wondering if my temp sensor didn’t perform, so i laid my hand on the MA’s after the movies, and confirmed they were cool to the touch=72˚F. So i think i have found the secret formula 


Anyway, in my case i had only one defective at a time, so i could rather easy pinpoint which one made the noise.


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## aron7awol

Do you mind sharing the video with me so I can compare it to mine?


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## Nalleh

Sure :

https://i.imgur.com/qYY64n4.mp4


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## aron7awol

Thanks! That doesn't sound the same as mine. I'm gonna have to do some more testing I guess!


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Yes, i remember you mentioned it. Well, the first time i blew one of mine it was dead! I used a much smaller amp in the beginning, and i believe it was clipping bad, and Randolph mentioned that could blow the MA’s. The last two times though, they still worked perfectly fine.... up to a point. Up until that point, no noises or anything, nothing that would suggest they were faulty. But when turned up for movie time and the LFE hit, they would make a clacking sound. Even then, just turning them down 4-6dB, and all sounded fine again. Strange thing...
> 
> But you use the Crowson amp, which has limiters and what not, and Randolph said they almost never had faulty MA’s when used with their amp.
> And if you said it didn’t happen before, it might suggest something happened. I would contact Randolph. @SBuger also had some faulty ones, if i remember correct and he had "reduced" performance, but got it fixed.
> 
> Edit: info on xmax was first mentioned by coolrda i believe, and it was in the patent paper too. They also have another website, Controlled Vibration or something and that has some more info on the units.


Yeah, the springs had worked out on one side of mine. They still worked but made them super weak below about 20hz. He replaced the springs on them though and perform like new again 

Hope you can get your issue lined out Aron, that kind of stuff can be so frustrating.


----------



## SBuger

nalleh said:


> i now use the compressor on the minidsp, activated at -25db, and i have also turned down the amps ~6-8 db, but still get a lot more dispalcement because of the stacking. I watched hunter killer this weekend, and just finished both httyd’s, all with beq, and the tr was insaaane, and still: Temperature was the same, no increase  i was actually wondering if my temp sensor didn’t perform, so i laid my hand on the ma’s after the movies, and confirmed they were cool to the touch=72˚f. So i think i have found the secret formula


nice!!!


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> I now use the compressor on the Minidsp, activated at -25db


Interesting that you are using the compressor. Because I thought my issue was frequency-specific, once I discovered the frequency that was causing the issue I planned on using DEQ in a NX3000D to compress just that one specific frequency. Now it is seeming not be a frequency-specific issue, though.

What made you decide to use the compressor? It would seem you have plenty of headroom now and don't need it


----------



## Nalleh

aron7awol said:


> Interesting that you are using the compressor. Because I thought my issue was frequency-specific, once I discovered the frequency that was causing the issue I planned on using DEQ in a NX3000D to compress just that one specific frequency. Now it is seeming not be a frequency-specific issue, though.
> 
> What made you decide to use the compressor? It would seem you have plenty of headroom now and don't need it


Because of what Randolph said, that the amp was too big.

When i got all 6 up and running, i first tried connecting them all to one amp, 3 in series pr channel= emptied the amp(24ohms). Reconfigured to 2 i series(16ohm) pr channel and one more amp(channel)= still emptied the amps(clip AND limiter would light up with almost no improved performance compared to old setup).

So now i am back to the "too big" setup with 2 in parallel pr channel(4ohm), and the amps now have headroom. However i am scared for my MA’s since blowing two of them with that setup, so i limit them with the compresssor.

I could use the limiter in the NX6KD too, but i only have one DSP amp(2 channels, need 3 for all 6 MA’s). So all i have left is the compressor function in the Minidsp.

Truth be told, when i blew the MA’s, i had more gain, more LS AND BEQ, so i was really pushing it, so i am probably overprotective, but i get insane results now anyway, so i think i draw the line here.

I played a couple of LFE demos i know very well at known levels while watching the compressor in Minidsp, incereasing settings, and ended up where it just started limiting those clips, so now if something heavier comes along, it will not go nuts.

With my faulty ones i did not get the impression it was frequency spesific either, rather it was simply stroke dependent: the more the MA moved, the more noise it made, regardless of frequency.


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> I played a couple of LFE demos i know very well at known levels while watching the compressor in Minidsp, incereasing settings, and ended up where it just started limiting those clips, so now if something heavier comes along, it will not go nuts.


That makes sense, now that I see you have it tuned so that the compressor doesn't kick in during normal content, so it really only kicks in with some crazy out-of-the-ordinary and potentially dangerous level content. Nice!


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## Nalleh

^^Precisely


----------



## Nalleh

Finally finished the step in front of the couch. Had more of the flooring used on the floors, so got the same look. Turned out great


----------



## Foundation42

Nalleh said:


> Finally finished the step in front of the couch. Had more of the flooring used on the floors, so got the same look. Turned out great



That looks great! Do you have the couch pulled back from the front edge in that photo, or do you have the platform extending beyond the front of the couch?


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## Nalleh

It is in front, like the pic shows. It is because of the increased height with stacked MA’s. The couch is now ~ 3 inches higher that original, so a step was needed


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## SBuger

Wow, that step looks fantastic ..cool light too!! You are quite handy!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Wow, that step looks fantastic ..cool light too!! You are quite handy!


Thanks, man  I’ve had the step since i got the Stack, but in raw form, so finally made it look the part 

But it all may be moot, if it turns out you like the BOSS, and then i have to start all over, LOL. I am eagerly awaiting your impressions, since you and i have a very similar setup with the same components and taste, and depending on your results, i may have get some more JBL’s and make some holes


----------



## SBuger

I think what you have going right now in your insane TR setup is gonna be so hard to beat. I know what it's capable of and I'm sure it's out of this world good, and probably better than mine, at least in ways. But yes still very similar with the same components, and I do think our tastes are very similar. 

I too am so interested to see what I think of this BOSS. I highly doubt I'll be disappointed, but it has a tall order to dethrone our combo of components we use I think. But like I was saying in the Crowson thread, mine can definitely be improved in areas and I'm hoping this BOSS is the ticket, and/or at least the new isos or some combination of it all. Part of what I think can be improved in my systems TR is less rigidity in the 15-25hz area (which is a VERY important area of the TR experience IMO). More so than under 15hz I think (for me anyway), which is still super fun and not something I would ever want to give up. I may not have known the difference if I were not coming from a setup that just killed in that 15-25hz TR area.

So I sure don't know if the BOSS will totally do it for me in all areas, or if I'll still feel the need to run multiple components along with it (which is cool if I do, I have no problems with that). Will be interesting and so fun to try either way. I couldn't not try this thing out, it would have drove me completely nuts if I didn't and always wondered about it. I love anything TR though, so I'm sure I'll love it in a lot of ways with everything that has been said about it so far. It makes sense to me just how good it could be with basically being connected to the driver like that (kind of like that small experiment I did with the new subs by setting on them for music). Probably super duper natural and very intense when needed as well. I hope I'm blown away by it, I really do!! 

I do hope I made the right choice going with the riser though, if not, it'll cost me quite a bit of time and effort redoing it to the low rise version. The low rise version would have been a bit of a PITA for me though, but may have to end up doing that in the log run anyway, doubling my work with what I've built so far (even though it was pretty darn fun ) I also hated to see that carp was getting a lot of sound from his. Hopefully that wont happen with mine.

I'll try not to leave you waiting too long for impressions


----------



## Nalleh

Ideas, ideas....

Here is an idea i have been pondering, more so since the BOSS idea surfaced.
A way to combine NF and BOSS.
So, blue is the NF box i have today with JBL’s. Red is a BOSS riser/sealed enclosure with the couch on top.
Then i put the NF box on top of the riser, open up the bottom of the NF box and top of the riser where they meet, so the NF box and riser becomes a big sealed enclosure. Then i mount Earthquake SLAPS M12 passive radiators on the riser, below the couch. These have 4 inch stroke and can be weighted down(tuned) to over 400 grams, and don’t have a magnet, so they are much shallower than the JBL’s and would be easier to mount below the couch.

The moving mass would be more than double the JBL’s, so in theory they could provide a nice wobble effect.

Info:

http://www.earthquakesound.eu/car-audio/slaps-passive-radiators/slaps-m12.aspx

However a PR driver CAN cause cancelletions if mounted on the same plane as the active driver, altough technically this wouldn’t the same plane.

And also since the BOSS may require inverted phase, there might also cause cancelletions.


Crude drawing:











I have 2 SLAPS units already. I guess only way to find out is to build a small version


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## Nalleh

Moved it here, as it was getting a bit of topic in the BOSS thread:



aron7awol said:


> @Nalleh have you modeled the box to see what kind of tune you can get?
> 
> I think it's a great outside-the-box idea, but I do see some potentially serious issues...
> 
> 1. Above tuning the PRs will do almost nothing.
> 2. At tuning the PRs will be in phase with the sub drivers, and out of phase with the riser movement, which creates that same catch-22 with an SPL-producing riser that others have been running into of choosing proper phase for the riser or the subs but can't have both.
> 3. Below tuning the PRs will become out of phase causing SPL cancellation with the sub drivers *and* the riser will actually switch phase.





aron7awol said:


> I'm going to bed, but I'll try modeling it tomorrow if you can give me an idea on volume and number of PRs (are you using all of them?).
> 
> I had a quick idea of making the PRs downfiring, but as you can see, I was busy typing the long post above so I haven't actually thought about it further. I'll do so while I'm trying to fall asleep tonight or tomorrow.





Nalleh said:


> Thanks, Aron
> 
> Quick measure of the needed riser: 3/4 plywood or MDF, 6.5ft wide x 5.25ft deep x 6inches high gives a internal volume of ~12ft3.
> 
> So i got some choises depending of how many SLAPS to use, and it would have to be at least 1:1 ratio of active vs passive driver, so if 4 JBL’s= 4 SLAPS.
> 
> The NF boxes is 1ft3 volume pr driver, so by including the plattform to the enclosure and 12 JBL’s + 12 SLAPS that would end up at 2ft3 pr JBL.
> 
> 12ft3 total NF box volume + 12ft3 plattform enclosure /12 drivers= 2ft3 pr driver.
> 
> So no matter how many SLAPS i end up using, it would all basically be a lot of 2ft3 boxes ported with a PR driver(at least lets start with that).
> Good idea about downfiring, that would invert the movement of the plattform, right? I would probably loose the NF effect from the SLAPS(pressure and tactile), but it would sum up better  I could just build the plattform "direction agnostic", so i could just flip it.
> 
> I could use just 4 SLAPS and include just 1 NF box(4x JBL’s) with the plattform.
> Or use 2 NF boxes and 8 SLAPS.
> Or all of them, so there are options
> 
> Did you see the FAQ at the bottom with the calculators etc i linked to?
> 
> http://www.earthquakesound.eu/car-audio/slaps-passive-radiators/slaps-m12.aspx





aron7awol said:


> I am copying my previous post so I can add downfiring differences to it:
> 
> 1. Above tuning the PRs will do almost nothing. This is still the case with downfiring PRs.
> 2. At tuning the PRs will be in phase with the sub drivers, and out of phase with the riser movement, which creates that same catch-22 with an SPL-producing riser that others have been running into of choosing proper phase for the riser or the subs but can't have both. With downfiring PRs, this is all true except we've reversed the direction of the riser movement by reversing the direction of the PR movement. So now the riser movement is in-phase with the sub driver movement. This is great, and the main reason I thought of downfiring PRs as an option. Of course, you lose the NF effect, as you mentioned.
> 3. Below tuning the PRs will become out of phase causing SPL cancellation with the sub drivers *and* the riser will actually switch phase. This is still the case with downfiring PRs.
> 
> So all in all, I'm sorry to say I don't expect it to work out too well for you, mostly because it just adds an additional phase variable that forces additional compromises. But here are some possible thoughts on viable approaches:
> 
> 1. You probably want to tune it so that the entire passband where you want TR from the riser is below tuning. Otherwise, #1 above will be an issue because there will be a range where there is little to no movement from the PRs and thus the riser.
> 2. With downfiring PRs, the #2 zone above (at and around tuning) should work quite well, with the riser movement in-phase with your subs. However, keep in mind that the sub drivers will move very little in this zone, so you won't be getting much SPL/TR from them, it will almost exclusively be coming from below.
> 3. The below tuning zone, #3 above, is probably the biggest issue. The PRs start going out of phase, which in turn does the same to the riser movement, *and* while you will get movement from both the sub drivers and the PRs, they will be out of phase and cancel, so you'll probably lose most/all of the NF effect. To me, this is a huge problem, because not only with the PRs/riser not be doing what you want them to do, but they will be crippling the output of your NFs that you love behind you down in the single-digits.
> 
> I'm not trying to discourage you from trying it, just trying to warn you of some issues I think will crop up, so you can make your choices while considering them at least.





Nalleh said:


> Yes, good post again, as usual  Yup a sub with PR has pro’s and con’s, and this wuld be a special setup where a lot of things need to add up instead of cancel. But i think i will do the small single seat test, and see how it goes. But as a pure PR sub 2ft3 single driver, could you model it? Does your software had provisions for using a PR?
> 
> EDIT: If I build the plattform correct, i could still go back to normal BOSS and use JBL’s instead of SLAPS in the plattform.





aron7awol said:


> Alright, I did a model comparing 0g with 400g, in 2cf with 1 JBL and 1 PR:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the 400g and resulting lower tune, you'd get good SPL down to ~18Hz but then you fall into the cliff of cancellation and a phase shift.
> 
> With 0g, you pretty much eliminate all meaningful output from the NF subs but you do end up with pretty consistent phase from the PRs in the 1-30Hz range.
> 
> I am also concerned about mounting these upfiring and downfiring with weight on them, it would seem they would lose a lot of one-way excursion due to sag. You might want to double-check with the manufacturer on that alignment if you decide to put significant weight on them.



Thanks for all your input Aron, much appreciated.

As expected going from sealed to ported(passive radiator) flattens the curve(not so peaky anymore), but increases the roll-of below tuning.
Yes, it is actually mentioned in the manual that you can’t use weights when doing a downfiring config, so you are right there.
Well, it doesn’t look as good anymore, LOL, but i am still interested in experimenting with it.


----------



## Nalleh

2 questions @aron7awol:

1. What about a bigger enclosure? For example if i use just 6 drivers and 6 PR’s with the same enclosure, that would be 4ft3 pr driver. Any better? Any other sizes suggestions?

1. Just to compare with the sealed 1 ft3 pr driver i have today, could you trow in that model too?


----------



## aron7awol

A big question in my mind is regarding the below-tune cancellation zone...despite the SPL cancellation will you still get enough of a NF effect that you're willing to accept the SPL loss? Something that you might want to test as a very important part of this, since we kind of need to know if that cancellation is a deal-breaker or not.


----------



## Nalleh

aron7awol said:


> A big question in my mind is regarding the below-tune cancellation zone...despite the SPL cancellation will you still get enough of a NF effect that you're willing to accept the SPL loss? Something that you might want to test as a very important part of this, since we kind of need to know if that cancellation is a deal-breaker or not.


Good point indeed. It might look bad on paper, but still give a nice effect in real life.

The reason i haven’t testet the SLAPS yet, is because i don’t have a spare JBL, LOL. I would have to remove one from a NF box if i want to test, and i haven’t crossed that bridge yet. Watching for deals on the JBL’s though 

I was thinking of building a mini version using one of my earlier sealed single driver box, make a little riser for a single seat, mount the box on it, with holes in both to connect them as a single box, put in a JBL and a SLAPS, put a seat on top, and start testing 

But if we separate the NF from the BOSS again, and just use a "normal" BOSS: instead of using just a plywood plate with JBL’s on it(BOSS low riser, TR only) or a "sealed leaky" plattform with JBL’s on top(BOSS tall riser, mostly TR, some ? SPL), why not mount a BOSS in a sealed box downfiring ? Since the BOSS shakes the plattform inverted, making it downfire, will make both TR and SPL in phase, right?


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> But if we separate the NF from the BOSS again, and just use a "normal" BOSS: instead of using just a plywood plate with JBL’s on it(BOSS low riser, TR only) or a "sealed leaky" plattform with JBL’s on top(BOSS tall riser, mostly TR, some ? SPL), why not mount a BOSS in a sealed box downfiring ? Since the BOSS shakes the plattform inverted, making it downfire, will make both TR and SPL in phase, right?


Yeah, I think that's probably what you're going to end up with, if you end up with a BOSS in your setup. I don't want to discourage your PR testing, though


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Cool, thanks @aron7awol, once againg we are in agreement 

Boy, i am never done with this, LOL...


----------



## aron7awol

Here's another model comparison to help you decide what you want to do with your system... 

Sealed 2cf, 1 JBL vs. 2cf, 1 JBL, 1 PR w/1500g(!)

Both at 300W and 15mm max excursion, and the PR has a 10Hz 8th-order HPF for this example to squeeze as much out of it down low while keeping JBL excursion in check. The PR peaks at 39mm of excursion in this setup.










A decent ~2dB gain over the sealed down low, but is that worth the loss below 9Hz?


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ HAHA, awsome @aron7awol, that should do it  IF that could work, i would gladly sacrifice below 9hz 

But 1.5kg ......... that’s insane, LOL....


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> ^^^ HAHA, awsome @aron7awol, that should do it  IF that could work, i would gladly sacrifice below 9hz
> 
> But 1.5kg ......... that’s insane, LOL....


It just seems like a lot of work for 2dB! But it's there for the taking if you want it!

That is, *if *the SLAPS can handle that much weight? Did they list a max anywhere?


----------



## Nalleh

The manual mentions max 400grams... but who reads manuals anyway 

I am game !

Oh, and i have 1cf boxes pr driver currently, so the difference would be more, right?


----------



## Nalleh

Another thing, Aron: remember we are still just modeling one driver. If it ends up with 12 JBL’s and 12 SLAPS, that should gain some headroom right?

That ~ 2db would add up times 12


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> The manual mentions max 400grams... but who reads manuals anyway
> 
> I am game !
> 
> Oh, and i have 1cf boxes pr driver currently, so the difference would be more, right?


The difference between 1cf sealed and 2cf PR? Yeah, the main reason I compared 2cf sealed with 2cf PR is you could always just go bigger sealed too.


Nalleh said:


> Another thing, Aron: remember we are still just modeling one driver. If it ends up with 12 JBL’s and 12 SLAPS, that should gain some headroom right?
> 
> That ~ 2db would add up times 12


The SLAPS will still end up ~2dB ahead of the equivalent number of sealed. 12 sealed will end up 21.6dB higher than the single sealed model, and 12 SLAPS subs will end up 21.6dB higher than the single model.

You'll certainly have a lot of headroom with 12 of either, though, as I'm sure you have tons of headroom right now between the 12 JBLs and sonos


----------



## Nalleh

True, 1cf is small for these, and the reason i went for that size was that instead of building 2cf and 6 drivers, i built 1cf and 12 drivers, which with the cheap drivers gave a lot more capability in the same total box volume.

Big ported would be better optimized pr driver, but would end up with biiig boxes compared to small sealed, probably more than 5cf pr driver, which i a lot for a 12".


Right, because the difference between 1 and 12 is a fixed number. Noted


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> Big ported would be better optimized pr driver, but would end up with biiig boxes compared to small sealed, probably more than 5cf pr driver, which i a lot for a 12".


Enclosure volume has essentially the same effect on ported and PR, the main difference is just the volume of the port goes away in the PR case. However, if 400g is a real limit, that's going to stop you from getting far below 18Hz with the PRs at a reasonable size, or even below 15Hz with ridiculous size.

With ported, you can still take advantage of the total volume, in this case say 24cf total. Here's a comparison of 12 JBLs in 2cf sealed each and 2cf ported each (total of 24cf in both cases). The only additional volume is another ~2cf for the ports. You can build 12 small ported boxes and they will add up to the same as a single box of the same total net volume. I also threw in 12 @ 3cf each ported to show what that would gain.










The same 24cf ported is 7dB louder at 10Hz and equal at ~8Hz! If you bump the size to 3cf each you gain another 3dB down there and it supports a bigger port to cut down on air velocity.

Edit to add: You could also break the 24cf into 3 boxes of 8cf or 4 boxes of 6cf and it works out the same. We just have to divide the total cross-sectional area of port by the number of boxes.


----------



## Nalleh

Thanks for the input, Aron. That is truly food for thought  What is the tune of those ported alternatives? EDIT: scrach that, the tune is in the pic, LOL . Actuallt a lot lower than i thought with such a small box!

This would have no BOSS effect, and basically just be a normal everyday ported box, a mega big one at that, but the output would be insane. Awsome

Another question about PR’s: i know manual says 1x 12" SLAPS pr 1x 12" active driver, and if you use 2 PR’s pr active driver, the tune goes up, but with the massive stroke of the SLAPS(4 inch compared to JBL’s 1/2 inch), could you use 1x SLAPS with 2x JBL’s? And would that LOWER the tune?


EDIT 2: Wait a minute, if i went this ported route and still mounted the JBL’s downfiring, the BOSS effect would still apply, and what if i mounted the ports in the NF boxes where the JBL’s used to be, firing into the back?


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> Another question about PR’s: i know manual says 1x 12" SLAPS pr 1x 12" active driver, and if you use 2 PR’s pr active driver, the tune goes up, but with the massive stroke of the SLAPS(4 inch compared to JBL’s 1/2 inch), could you use 1x SLAPS with 2x JBL’s? And would that LOWER the tune?


Here's a model of 24cf with 12 JBLs and 6 SLAPS compared to the others. 400g limits us from digging any deeper with them.












Nalleh said:


> EDIT 2: Wait a minute, if i went this ported route and still mounted the JBL’s downfiring, the BOSS effect would still apply, and what if i mounted the ports in the NF boxes where the JBL’s used to be, firing into the back?


You'll still have the issue that cone movement will go down to almost zero around tune, and below tune is in that same uncharted territory where we don't know whether the NF effect will persist in the singles with cancellation.


----------



## Nalleh

^^Awsome again @aron7awol, thanks  I really appreciate you helping me with all these crazy ideas 

Ok, so i was right, that lower the tune a bit, from ~18 to ~ 16hz.

Sorry to keep nagging, but what if:

You disregard that 400g limit. I am assuming they put those recommendations in there to fit their own active drivers, which presumably have much bigger Xmax. Same with number of SLAPS pr driver, so lets disregard them for now.

EDIT: other than total displacement for the SLAPS must be more than the drivers 

Let’s go wild ! If you use the JBL’s, SLAPS, any number(up to the 12+12 we are talking about)and what box size pr driver you want(within some reason of the total box volume we talk about her), what would you end up with ?

Would a ported solution still be better ?

Could you replace the 2cf sealed graph with the one i use today: 1cf sealed boxes? That way we can compare better to what i am starting with 


Please let me know if i am going to far, and you want out.....


----------



## aron7awol

Here's sealed changed to 1cf per, and 1000g on the same 24cf with 12 JBLs and 6 SLAPS. I also tried 4 SLAPS instead of 6 but you lose 2dB.


----------



## Nalleh

Holy moly Aron, now we are getting somewhere ! That’s a ~10dB boost at 10hz with both ported and PR compared to what i have today! Before room gain !
That should get me well above reference to below 10hz in room! With just the NF’s, LOL.

I assume the PR box would also gain 3dB going to 3cf pr driver?

But that is the max SPL graph, right, so i can’t EQ on top of that?

PR has a steeper roll-of than ported, but we are really deep down here, so not sure it matters.

I could still test both options by building the same box, and just swith between SLAPS and ports in the NF boxes. Do you think i could do ports like that, Aron? A adapter plate from the driver cutout to a port plate?

And yes, i would have to split up the riser boxes in order to handle them, but 3 boxes should be doable, 1 under each NF box.


Hmm, suddenly i went from being content with what i have to planning monster boxes... what did i tell you about being on this forum, Aron LOL...


----------



## aron7awol

If we go to 3cf per we can go to a 3:2 ratio of JBLs to SLAPS and keep the same 1000g and gain ~3dB:


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> But that is the max SPL graph, right, so i can’t EQ on top of that?


Yes, it is Max SPL, but you can EQ the shape to anything *below *that Max SPL curve.



Nalleh said:


> I could still test both options by building the same box, and just swith between SLAPS and ports in the NF boxes. Do you think i could do ports like that, Aron? A adapter plate from the driver cutout to a port plate?


Yeah, that would be a cool modular approach, and should work as long as you can seal things up good.



Nalleh said:


> Hmm, suddenly i went from being content with what i have to planning monster boxes... what did i tell you about being on this forum, Aron LOL...


Haha, it really does never end if we want to continue to push the envelope


----------



## aron7awol

BTW my concern with the 1000g of weight is that the suspension of the SLAPS can't hold that much weight even when mounted with the cone vertical. You'll have to load one up and see what happens to the suspension.


----------



## Nalleh

WOW, Aron, my head is spinning! I do some small edit in my recent posts(as i think of more stuff), and before i can update them, you spit out these as fast as you do in the BEQ thread! You are a ANIMAL, man. This is so cool, it is so much fun spitballin like this, thanks again 

Ok, so 3db increase, got it. Awsome 



aron7awol said:


> BTW my concern with the 1000g of weight is that the suspension of the SLAPS can't hold that much weight even when mounted with the cone vertical. You'll have to load one up and see what happens to the suspension.


Agreed, it sounds like a lot, but let me tell you, they feel incredible stiff in the suspension and general quality, they are built like a tank, so you can bet i will test them properly . When i think about it, 1 kg feel like small potatos for one of them 

But i have to admit, my favourite so far was your kamikaze 1.5kg graph, that was insane  i assume the HPF you used in that is the reason that curve look different at the bottom?
How would that 12x 39mm stroke feel 2 inches behind your back, i wonder ??

And now that we have "let go" of the rules, i guess you are optimizing the number of SLAPS for the best curve, right?

Somehow i still get the feeling that you would choose the ported options, am i right?

36cf is starting to get insane. I am starting to think it might would be better to start from scratch, instead of using my NF boxes. That way i could exploit the dead space behind/ below the couch better. That way i could start the back of the boxes right up against the back wall and fill out to include the step in front of the couch, and up to the top of the couch back.

Would be pitty though, as the NF boxes turned out so great


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> But i have to admit, my favourite so far was your kamikaze 1.5kg graph, that was insane  i assume the HPF you used in that is the reason that curve look different at the bottom?
> How would that 12x 39mm stroke feel 2 inches behind your back, i wonder ??


Yeah, I gave the model power and used a HPF to make sure excursion was in check, but it does appear that WinISD is accounting for PR excursion limits in the Max SPL graph already 



Nalleh said:


> And now that we have "let go" of the rules, i guess you are optimizing the number of SLAPS for the best curve, right?


Yeah I'm trying different numbers and settling on what is best for the particular box. But the difference between 8 SLAPS and 9 SLAPS on that last one, for example, is pretty much negligible.



Nalleh said:


> Somehow i still get the feeling that you would choose the ported options, am i right?


I dunno, ported is a bit bigger by the port volume, and there's nothing wrong with the PR option as long as they can handle 1kg. I guess the only thing that would make me lean ported for my own build is I am comfortable knowing it will behave exactly as I want it to, while there's a little bit of risk with these weights and the SLAPS. And there might be an advantage for ported in PV, as we've seen suggested on other threads.



Nalleh said:


> 36cf is starting to get insane.


That 2-3 dB difference probably won't translate into anything but a little more headroom. Based on the response you get in-room with your sealed subs, and comparing the Max SPL of the 1cf per sealed x 12 that you have now, I think you'll end up with a ridiculous amount of headroom anyway with the 10dB bump that PR/ported gives you with just 2cf per.


----------



## Nalleh

Ok great, Aron 

I am a bit confused when reading the specs on the SLAPS here:

http://earthquakeeurope.com/Products/Car-Audio/Accessories/SLAPS/SLAPS-M12/Pdf/SLAPS-M Insert.pdf

In the T/S, which is with no added mass, just the bolt, it says MMS is 289g and on page 2 that the included mass is 255g. Is MMS and that 255g both considered a mass, or is MMS already accounted for when you model? In other words is MMS of 289g reported as : added mass 0g. And then you add mass from threre?
Hope you understand what i mean


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> In the T/S, which is with no added mass, just the bolt, it says MMS is 289g and on page 2 that the included mass is 255g. Is MMS and that 255g both considered a mass, or is MMS already accounted for when you model? In other words is MMS of 289g reported as : added mass 0g. And then you add mass from threre?
> Hope you understand what i mean


I was similarly confused when I was first plugging everything in to model. But there's an asterisk after T/S Parameters that says measured with the bolts only. Also, the parameters for the PR that you type in WinISD does not actually include Mms.

So I'm pretty sure the 255g mass that it comes with is just meant to be a "normal" weight people add, and then you can remove some of it by drilling holes in it, or add to it by adding washers to whatever, but that 255g (or whatever you change it to) gets plugged in as "Added mass to cone" in WinISD. At least, that's how I interpreted all of this and what I've been doing 

Edit: I'm not trying to pretend I'm 100% sure that's exactly how it's supposed to go, so you should probably check with the mfg before we finalize any designs


----------



## Nalleh

aron7awol said:


> I was similarly confused when I was first plugging everything in to model. But there's an asterisk after T/S Parameters that says measured with the bolts only. Also, the parameters for the PR that you type in WinISD does not actually include Mms.
> 
> So I'm pretty sure the 255g mass that it comes with is just meant to be a "normal" weight people add, and then you can remove some of it by drilling holes in it, or add to it by adding washers to whatever, but that 255g (or whatever you change it to) gets plugged in as "Added mass to cone" in WinISD. At least, that's how I interpreted all of this and what I've been doing
> 
> Edit: I'm not trying to pretend I'm 100% sure that's exactly how it's supposed to go, so you should probably check with the mfg before we finalize any designs


Ok, so it wasn’t just me then, LOL.
First of all there are two 12" types : the SLAPS-12 and the SLAPS M12, the first being the older variant which doesn’t have the bolt in the middle, and as showed in the manual need to drill holes and add weight. The M12 is the current model and already has a bolt installed. And as can be seen in second pic on the right , it has a big metal washer mass added, presumably the 255g mentioned.

http://www.earthquakesound.eu/car-audio/slaps-passive-radiators/slaps-m12.aspx

The SLAPS-12 does not have this. Second pic again.

http://www.earthquakesound.eu/car-audio/slaps-passive-radiators/slaps-12.aspx

Also the T/S for the older has this:

«Mms: 0,4 kg (Total moving mass it includes the air load)». (I guess it means it has a heavier cone) So clearly they are not spec’ed the same way.

But that is how i understood it to, that the MMS is regarded as mass=0g and if you use the included weigth then added mass should be 255g.

Sounds like we agree, as per usual


----------



## Nalleh

aron7awol said:


> A big question in my mind is regarding the below-tune cancellation zone...


Is the below-tuning cancellation problems you speak of the normal dreaded "mixing ported with sealed"(sonos) scenario, or is it specific to this project?
In other words, if the sonos were ported too, it would be alright?

Also, just out of curiosity i went back and checked the graphs that Ender help me with when i planned the NF boxes, where i asked about 4 JBL’s in 2cf boxes vs 8 in 1cf boxes, and here is the graphs:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-...r-29-black-friday-bestbuy-5.html#post56031680

As i hoped the small boxes won, but not the point here: look at the 8x 1cf graph, and then compare to your 12x 1cf curve. They are identical!

@ 60hz: 132dB
@ 40hz: 128dB
@ 20hz: 115dB

How can that be with 8 vs 12 in same box size pr driver?


EDIT: i also did a little test today. I took out a SLAPS, laid it vertical supported by the basket and dropped a 1kg bag of sugar on the cone from about 4" height. The cone moved, but only a about a mm. So testing how it handles 1kg mass when horizontal will be fun


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> Is the below-tuning cancellation problems you speak of the normal dreaded "mixing ported with sealed"(sonos) scenario, or is it specific to this project?
> In other words, if the sonos were ported too, it would be alright?


I'm just referring to once we get below tune we lose resonant loading and the port/PRs go out-of-phase with the driver(s) and cancel. This is the reason the rolloff is so steep below tuning for ported/PR:












Nalleh said:


> Also, just out of curiosity i went back and checked the graphs that Ender help me with when i planned the NF boxes, where i asked about 4 JBL’s in 2cf boxes vs 8 in 1cf boxes, and here is the graphs


I always thought that was an unfair comparison, because number of boxes doesn't matter, only total volume does. So he essentially compared 4 JBLs in 8cf vs. 8 JBLs in 8cf. Of course the 8 JBLs won! 



Nalleh said:


> As i hoped the small boxes won, but not the point here: look at the 8x 1cf graph, and then compare to your 12x 1cf curve. They are identical!
> 
> @ 60hz: 132dB
> @ 40hz: 128dB
> @ 20hz: 115dB
> 
> How can that be with 8 vs 12 in same box size pr driver?


I can't speak to exactly what he modeled, but here's a direct comparison of 12cf sealed with 12 JBLs vs. 8cf sealed with 8 JBLs. Note that I model the JBLs at 15mm usable excursion and 300W max power: 












Nalleh said:


> EDIT: i also did a little test today. I took out a SLAPS, laid it vertical supported by the basket and dropped a 1kg bag of sugar on the cone from about 4" height. The cone moved, but only a about a mm. So testing how it handles 1kg mass when horizontal will be fun


Sounds very promising


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Right, ported is USELESS below tuning  I guess that is why we tune as low as possible 

There was some talk about 1cf being to small box for the drivers, and i just wanted to know if with a set volume(8cf) and the drivers being so cheap, would it be any advantage to "double up" on drivers, in the same size box, thereby cutting each drivers box in half.

Yes, the excursion graph show he used 15mm Xmax too, only he used 625W pr driver, so i guess that explains the SPL difference. Not sure how that could be, but lets leave it at that 

If you set the limits to 15mm and 300W does the graph rise until one of those limits are reached? So in your case the Watts is the limiter and his is the Xmax?

Yor last graph there makes more sense, thanks


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Right, ported is USELESS below tuning  I guess that is why we tune as low as possible


What we don't know yet, though, is what, if any, NF effect you will still get below tuning despite this cancellation.



Nalleh said:


> There was some talk about 1cf being to small box for the drivers, and i just wanted to know if with a set volume(8cf) and the drivers being so cheap, would it be any advantage to "double up" on drivers, in the same size box, thereby cutting each drivers box in half.


Still, in the same total volume, more drivers is always going to outperform less drivers, especially up top.



Nalleh said:


> Yes, the excursion graph show he used 15mm Xmax too, only he used 625W pr driver, so i guess that explains the SPL difference. Not sure how that could be, but lets leave it at that


Hmm, strange, I don't think I'd give them more than 300W myself.



Nalleh said:


> If you set the limits to 15mm and 300W does the graph rise until one of those limits are reached? So in your case the Watts is the limiter and his is the Xmax?


The Maximum SPL graph shows you max output with both max excursion and max power as constraints. So it really represents the maximum headroom assuming you can't go over either of those. The drivers will be power-limited up top, and when they start to rolloff (in the case of sealed like this) they have become excursion-limited. This is why it actually rolls off, because we are at max excursion and as we go down in frequency it takes more and more excursion to hit the same SPL, so SPL drops since excursion is limited.


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Right, because there is still (a lot?) cone movement below tuning, only the driver and port/PR is out of phase?
With the JBL’s below you and SLAPS behind you it could get "funny feeling".... then again, it could be awsome...

Yeah, but watt it can handle depends on box volume too, right? Smaller box, more watt.

500 watt is mentioned here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-...-thread-replacement-infinity-1260-1262-a.html

And did you see Shred’s 18mm test?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-...r-29-black-friday-bestbuy-9.html#post56110464

Pretty insane for such a cheap little driver, LOL.

On mine i have 4 JBL’s series-parallel for a 4 ohm load on each channel on a NU6K, unrestricted, and they are still pumping 

Got it about the limiters, that was what i thought.


----------



## Nalleh

Regarding the SLAPS: I ended up browsing the website of Earthquake, and they actually use the SLAPS in a lot of their active subwoofers, and the drivers they use in conjunction with the SLAPS are some pretty hairy stuff with Xmax upwards of 3.5inch !! So i defenitely think the manual has those drivers in mind regarding the guidelines they use.
Here is one:

http://www.earthquakesound.eu/home-audio/subwoofers/minime-p12-v2-w.aspx

Another one:

http://www.earthquakesound.eu/home-audio/subwoofers/supernova-mkvi-12.aspx

4" Xmax with one SLAPS M12 !!

Now, in this case the SLAPS doesn’t have a 1 kg mass, but same Xmax on both active and passive driver, is pretty ballsy 





Puny JBL


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Right, because there is still (a lot?) cone movement below tuning, only the driver and port/PR is out of phase?
> With the JBL’s below you and SLAPS behind you it could get "funny feeling".... then again, it could be awsome...


Yeah, exactly. That doesn't solve the problem of the changes that occur above tuning, at tuning, below tuning though. So I think the only way for consistent action in that sense is to go with 0g and keep everything below tune.



Nalleh said:


> Yeah, but watt it can handle depends on box volume too, right? Smaller box, more watt.


Well, when people refer to changes in "power handling" with box volume changes, they are actually referring to efficiency, or how much power it takes to get the driver to xmax. It leads to a somewhat common misconception that it may be a good idea to make a box smaller in order to lower efficiency/excursion so they can give the driver all the power it can handle. But excursion is SPL, so you just end up throwing more power at the driver to produce the same excursion/SPL, but likely with more distortion.



Nalleh said:


> 500 watt is mentioned here


The voice coil may handle 500W in short bursts okay, but as you see in the Max SPL graphs I posted, the driver is excursion-limited where it really matters, because where it is power-limited up top there's so much headroom that we'll never need much power.



Nalleh said:


> And did you see Shred’s 18mm test?


It looks like 18-19mm was xmech. The driver will be distorting badly by that point. Using the UM18 as another example, xmax is rated at 22mm I think, but xmech was measured at like 30mm. But as we go past xmax we'll start to distort, so I wouldn't model based on that. I'm pretty sure the 15mm number I've been using for the JBLs was a sort of "usable relatively clean excursion" estimate from LTD. But the most important thing is that we use the same numbers when we're comparing models at least.



Nalleh said:


> Pretty insane for such a cheap little driver, LOL.


They are definitely the best bang-for-your-buck driver I've seen. They even beat the HT18s at $160 or whatever they were, and that's saying something! They are super versatile too, I just wish we saw more ported subs with them to squeeze even more out of them. It seems like sealed just caught on in the thread and it's heresy to speak of ported in there 



Nalleh said:


> On mine i have 4 JBL’s series-parallel for a 4 ohm load on each channel on a NU6K, unrestricted, and they are still pumping


So 250-300W per driver, which is exactly what I'd throw at them too! I think that's a perfect match


----------



## Nalleh

aron7awol said:


> Yeah, exactly. That doesn't solve the problem of the changes that occur above tuning, at tuning, below tuning though. So I think the only way for consistent action in that sense is to go with 0g and keep everything below tune.


Got it. Note to self: be mentally prepared for the wonkiest TR experience ever!

But all that would go away with a sealed box?

Hmm, so you are saying tune them high? For TR? So less mass, more PR’s and smaller box?

What about 4 JBL’s, 1cf pr driver(4cf total), and 3 SLAPS pr driver, no mass added ?!? How would that graph look?



> Well, when people refer to changes in "power handling" with box volume changes, they are actually referring to efficiency, or how much power it takes to get the driver to xmax. It leads to a somewhat common misconception that it may be a good idea to make a box smaller in order to lower efficiency/excursion so they can give the driver all the power it can handle. But excursion is SPL, so you just end up throwing more power at the driver to produce the same excursion/SPL, but likely with more distortion.


Right. But the resulting box size is often important to people. As in they take to much space, and in my case it was easier throwing more watt at them  Better? Maybe not, but nevertheless ended up pretty ok.


> The voice coil may handle 500W in short bursts okay, but as you see in the Max SPL graphs I posted, the driver is excursion-limited where it really matters, because where it is power-limited up top there's so much headroom that we'll never need much power.


True that, i have absolutely no need for more headroom up top, it is already so much, it’s ridicoulus 



> It looks like 18-19mm was xmech. The driver will be distorting badly by that point. Using the UM18 as another example, xmax is rated at 22mm I think, but xmech was measured at like 30mm. But as we go past xmax we'll start to distort, so I wouldn't model based on that. I'm pretty sure the 15mm number I've been using for the JBLs was a sort of "usable relatively clean excursion" estimate from LTD. But the most important thing is that we use the same numbers when we're comparing models at least.


Agreed, it was just a fun test, and testiment to the driver  Yup, 15mm is a good number.


> They are definitely the best bang-for-your-buck driver I've seen. They even beat the HT18s at $160 or whatever they were, and that's saying something! They are super versatile too, I just wish we saw more ported subs with them to squeeze even more out of them. It seems like sealed just caught on in the thread and it's heresy to speak of ported in there


Yeah, god knows i have punded on them since i got them, and have never heard anything even slightly resembling protest from them. Simply amazing value for the money.

Ok, i’ll bite: if you went all out, like with your mega sonos, squeezing every last drop out of them, what would the optimum ported enclosure design for the JBL look like? And graph?



> So 250-300W per driver, which is exactly what I'd throw at them too! I think that's a perfect match


Are you basing that on notnyt’s test of the Inuke? Yeah, and then i have som LS boost on them too though, but not terrible much.


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> Got it. Note to self: be mentally prepared for the wonkiest TR experience ever!
> 
> But all that would go away with a sealed box?
> 
> Hmm, so you are saying tune them high? For TR? So less mass, more PR’s and smaller box?


Yeah, there would certainly be plenty of movement in both dimensions in the case of the L shaped box you were considering if we kept everything below tune. But there would be canceled SPL and that same unknown of whether there would be NF effect or not. If you got the movement and the NF effect but no SPL, you might be okay with that compromise. This is why I like to look at the extremes (0g in this case), sometimes weird stuff happens but it works out alright! 

Yeah, I still think the downfiring sealed box gives the most consistent feel and SPL throughout the passband.



Nalleh said:


> Right. But the resulting box size is often important to people. As in they take to much space, and in my case it was easier throwing more watt at them  Better? Maybe not, but nevertheless ended up pretty ok.


Well I'm mostly referring to cases where someone already has a big box/riser and people tell them to make the inner chamber smaller to "increase the power handling". Otherwise, I totally get with the desire for smaller boxes so when comparing models during the design phase it makes sense to not go bigger than necessary.



Nalleh said:


> Ok, i’ll bite: if you went all out, like with your mega sonos, squeezing every last drop out of them, what would the optimum ported enclosure design for the JBL look like? And graph?


Tough to say something is exactly "optimum" because of all of the considerations, so I guess the biggest question is what do we have for total volume to work with? But in the meantime, I just threw something together...

This is 8 JBLs ported in 40cf total tuned to 11Hz vs. 12 JBLs in 24cf total sealed:










Or if you could use up 60cf total and threw all 12 JBLs in there (same tune and same sealed comp):












Nalleh said:


> Are you basing that on notnyt’s test of the Inuke? Yeah, and then i have som LS boost on them too though, but not terrible much.


I'm going on memory at this point, but I think the general consensus on the 6000 is 1200W per channel into 4ohms. So just based on that I went 1200W/4 JBLs = 300W per. But I also remember seeing 20% drop in power from 30Hz to 20Hz, and another 20% drop from 20Hz to 10Hz, so I've been using 1000W per channel since. I'll try to find the source on that data and share it here.

Edit: Here's a link https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/213071-behringer-inuke-nu3000-measurements.html

The LS don't affect this (or the Max SPL graph). I think it's helpful in this sort of application to think of a LS as the equivalent negative HS and positive gain to bring it back up. The end result is exactly the same, but you can't make an amp output more than its capable of, and you can't make a driver produce more than it's capable of, so I find it to be a more intuitive representation.


----------



## Nalleh

Right, the whole ported/PR version would be uncharted territory for sure. As a normal sub it would be awsome down to tuning, but since this is regaring NF and a TR solution, who knows. Theory is one thing, but it can act completely different in real life.
Would require testing for sure 

Downfiring sealed looks looks like a safe bet though, but will require «a completely new setup», as in new/more JBL’s and more amps, and i am defenitely nearing the limit at what my curcuit breakers can handle already 

Yeah, agreed, for the big riser/plattform guys big ported enclosures would be easy, as that is just dead space anyway.

Thanks, for the graphs, what did i tell you: 5cf pr driver ported boxes, LOL. Yup, loose some up high(don’t need it anyway), and gain a good bit down low, looking wery nice. But the size man, WOW!

But then again, as much as i have mine turned down up high, 8 ported would probably be louder than what i have now, because of a much better native curve. But still more than 3 times the size. Insane...


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> Thanks, for the graphs, what did i tell you: 5cf pr driver ported boxes, LOL. Yup, loose some up high(don’t need it anyway), and gain a good bit down low, looking wery nice. But the size man, WOW!
> 
> But then again, as much as i have mine turned down up high, 8 ported would probably be louder than what i have now, because of a much better native curve. But still more than 3 times the size. Insane...


That was just an example, but we can def do much smaller and still have a huge advantage over sealed. Just let me know what kind of total volume you can fit and I'll model some things.

For example, here's 24cf and 12 JBLs:










Same box but with 8 JBLs doesn't lose much down low:










Both of those are compared to 24cf sealed with 12 JBLs.


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Nice, Aron. Are these still with the same watt pr driver? Still the same 15mm and 300W pr driver?


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Nice, Aron. Are these still with the same watt pr driver? Still the same 15mm and 300W pr driver?


Yup.


----------



## Nalleh

@aron7awol was kind enough to walk me trough how to use WinISD, so i can do these graphs myself, so thanks Aron 



(Or maybe he was getting tired of my endless questions, LOL)


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> (Or maybe he was getting tired of my endless questions, LOL)


Nah, I don't mind helping at all...just wanted to teach a Norwegian man to fish


----------



## israk35h

If i connect my marantz 6013 avr to another avr through hdmi from zone 2 audio gets compressed to stereo.Any help please ?


----------



## Nalleh

israk35h said:


> If i connect my marantz 6013 avr to another avr through hdmi from zone 2 audio gets compressed to stereo.Any help please ?


If you go to: settings>general>Zone2/3 setup>HDMI audio : does it say Through or PCM?

It should say Through, as that should send whatever sound comes in right through to zone2.


----------



## israk35h

HI, 

Now i am getting audio on second avr.But the video output has been reduced to 1080p but i am using a 4k tv.


----------



## Nalleh

israk35h said:


> HI,
> 
> Now i am getting audio on second avr.But the video output has been reduced to 1080p but i am using a 4k tv.


The second AVR also has to be connected to a 4K tv(HDMI sync). Run a HDMI cable from your second AVR HDMI out to another HDMI input on your 4K tv.


----------



## israk35h

It is an old avr.It can output max 1080p.Any other solution bro to turn hdmi sync off


----------



## Nalleh

israk35h said:


> It is an old avr.It can output max 1080p.Any other solution bro to turn hdmi sync off


No, it’s the HDCP 2.2 copy protection in action, sorry


----------



## ryanmh1

I stumbled across your mention of using the SLAPS radiators when trying to figure out what do with the JBLs I just bought. Don't try to use them for tactile response. It won't work well. I thought about this and scrapped it. Recall that the way the whole BOSS idea works is nothing more than using a subwoofer as a cheap linear activator. If you use a passive radiator, while the _frequency response_ might be more linear, the actual cone movement will be highly nonlinear. This will screw everything up. What you care about is not SPL, but linear cone movement. Model it in WinISD. You'll have a massive peak in cone movement at the tuning frequency, causing a massive bump in the tactile output. This will get even worse since you'll be moving around at least 4x the moving mass of a JBL driver, and shoving it 50mm. Pick a tuning frequency of, say, 10Hz for the PR. The PR will move 50mm at 10Hz and about 5mm at 20Hz. It's a mess. The cone movement of an open baffle speaker below 40Hz, on the other hand, is highly linear. I cannot see how you gain any tactile advantages here if you try to couple the SLAPS to a platform. It would be a mess. The open baffle has very consistent and linear cone movement below 30Hz or so, which is probably why it works. If you really wanted to try for more tactile, try mass loading the cones of the JBL. As in just glue 400g worth of weight to them. The only issue with that might be driver sag, and I haven't taken the time to run the changed parameters through a sag calculation. 

FWIW, I have actually used the SLAPS, and put an extensive write up of my project over at Data-Bass. I haven't cross posted it here yet, but will when I have some time. I have two opposed passives mass loaded with 1200g tuned to about 12Hz. This is necessary to cancel otherwise obscene cabinet vibrations which (see above) you don't want. The suspensions will handle the weight just fine. That's with 2 SLAPS mounted in a 4cf enclosure. It's as low as they can feasibly be used. If you want to get stupid low, you need to use 10" SLAPS. Coincidentally, I played around with modeling those earlier today, and the possibilities are interesting. To hit 10Hz, you would need a pair of JBL drivers with a pair of 10" SLAPS weighted to 1200g. This would give you 90dB of output at 2M groundplane. It's also mostly a waste of your time. 4 JBLs sealed will get you almost the same output, in the same space, with more output below tune, at less cost. I could play with the models more, but it didn't look very favorable to me. Low tuned passive radiator systems demand about 30mm of suspension travel from the active driver to avoid bottoming it.

Also note that the published specifications for the SLAPS are wrong. It will not tune how you model. It will tune higher. I have detailed measurements from trying to get mine dialed in, and multiple emails with Earthquake trying to figure out where their error was. Whoever they had measure them botched it. Their Vas measurement is off massively, and will not mathematically reconcile with the other parameters. You need to use about 1.5cf, Sd483, and Fs 27ish to get close to a small signal model. At large signals, the parameters change thanks to the variable properties of the suspension. The tune will shift lower as excursion increases. At medium excursions, you need to model with a Vas of about 1.5cf, and Fs of 21Hz. This is with heavy loading of about 900g+ on them. 

In short, for people trying to build stuff with cheap JBLs, there is no point to using a SLAPS. It costs two or three times what the drivers do. Just add more drivers. On the other hand, the SLAPS make a lot of sense when you want an unreasonably low tune in a small box using an expensive driver where you can't just buy 4 more for $120. 




Nalleh said:


> Got it. Note to self: be mentally prepared for the wonkiest TR experience ever!
> 
> But all that would go away with a sealed box?
> 
> Hmm, so you are saying tune them high? For TR? So less mass, more PR’s and smaller box?
> 
> What about 4 JBL’s, 1cf pr driver(4cf total), and 3 SLAPS pr driver, no mass added ?!? How would that graph look?


----------



## Nalleh

@ryanmh1: WOW, thanks for all that valuable information! Much appreciated 

Well, Aron will pretty much agree with you, and i am starting to too! It sounded like a good idea to combine the whole SPL with TR without needing more JBL’s but it seems like a difficult project to get right.

Do you have a link to your SLAPS project? Sound like a cool project


----------



## aron7awol

ryanmh1 said:


> I stumbled across your mention of using the SLAPS radiators when trying to figure out what do with the JBLs I just bought. Don't try to use them for tactile response. It won't work well. I thought about this and scrapped it. Recall that the way the whole BOSS idea works is nothing more than using a subwoofer as a cheap linear activator. If you use a passive radiator, while the _frequency response_ might be more linear, the actual cone movement will be highly nonlinear. This will screw everything up. What you care about is not SPL, but linear cone movement. Model it in WinISD. You'll have a massive peak in cone movement at the tuning frequency, causing a massive bump in the tactile output.


This is why the best solution I could come up using the SLAPS in this manner was actually a radical approach of keeping the entire passband below tuning by putting 0g of mass on the SLAPS. Below tune he'd get excursion from both the JBLs and the SLAPS, just out-of-phase with each other, which would actually be okay from a TR perspective since we planned on putting the JBLs and SLAPS in different axes. The only issue with that approach is the SPL cancellation, which might be a deal-breaker since he'd lose the SPL he currently has from his VNF JBLs. The open question was whether any nearfield effect that remained was enough to accept that SPL loss. This wasn't really an approach I would call optimal, but it was the best I could come up with while using the SLAPS in that particular sort of alignment.


----------



## ryanmh1

aron7awol said:


> This is why the best solution I could come up using the SLAPS in this manner was actually a radical approach of keeping the entire passband below tuning by putting 0g of mass on the SLAPS. Below tune he'd get excursion from both the JBLs and the SLAPS, just out-of-phase with each other, which would actually be okay from a TR perspective since we planned on putting the JBLs and SLAPS in different axes.


Agreed. That's about as good as you can do. In the grand scheme of thing, you still wind up with a SLAPS with about 230g Mms working alongside a JBL that has just about as much, and the SLAPS is moving half as much and costs about double. So every mm of movement costs about 4x as much, and the acoustic output is a net loss. Now, if you wanted to do a lot of prototyping and measuring, in theory you could load it up the SLAPS weight, and find a way to put parametric EQ band right on top of the resonant frequency of the radiator to bring the peak under control. But that's a lot of measuring and guess work. 

Thus, to increase the moving mass, my preference is to try mass loading the JBL driver. I ran a quick search through the main thread, and I don't see where this has been suggested or tried. Before the days of easy EQ, we used to do this to tweak driver properties and shape low end response favorably. It's a bad solution for about anything these days with cheap and easy EQ, but here it might work. Open baffle these things could practically be run off a clock radio. They bottom with under 100 watts. 

I'd take the "free" acoustic output and put a tiny little box around it. The sweet spot (in theory) is about .8 cubic feet per driver, with a 30Hz lowpass (2nd order butterworth), loaded up with 400 grams on the driver, hammering it with about 400 watts peak per driver. That triples your weight, and gives you a good punch of bass from about 25HZ to 50Hz. It just pushes the Xlim at 30Hz with about 15mm of excursion. How long the $30 woofer holds together is anyone's guess, though... It would probably be best to start without going as crazy on the mass.


----------



## Nalleh

Well, since a lot of TR users are using LPF of between 16 to 25hz AND LS to shape a house curve in the single digits, maybe it wouldn’t be so bad. And if are talking about no mass added, the SLAPS can be downfiring again.

Also IF i get the order i made, the SLAPS would cost $18 a piece, so relatively cheap.

And nice to hear they can take 1200grams mass added 

If i could use the SLAPS downfiring i could slim down the riser height compare to using the JBL’s downfiring.

And as a stand alone sub, your 4cf dual SLAPS box doesn’t sound that bad, if you aren’t expecting single digit performance from it 

So i could also remove 2 of the 4 JBL’s from each of my 4cf NF boxes, put in your suggested 2x SLAPS in each loaded to 1200grams, and then use the removed 6x JBL’s in a seperated BOSS riser.

That would get decent NF performance down to 15-12 hz, and a good 6x JBL "normal" BOSS.

Sidenote: i notice my NF boxes move around a little, probably from the 4 drivers firing in the same plane, making me think they have some movement=TR. So i guess mounting them on top of a riser could add some TR?


----------



## aron7awol

ryanmh1 said:


> Thus, to increase the moving mass, my preference is to try mass loading the JBL driver. I ran a quick search through the main thread, and I don't see where this has been suggested or tried.


This was one of the first things I suggested for the BOSS. I don't think anyone has tried it yet, though.


----------



## Nalleh

Got a little easter holiday project going on. Any guesses ?


----------



## aron7awol

Nalleh said:


> Got a little easter holiday project going on. Any guesses ?


Where'd you dig those drivers out of?  Is that a spare seat?


----------



## Nalleh

aron7awol said:


> Where'd you dig those drivers out of?  Is that a spare seat?


LOL, i think i got those driver in 1995 or something, they are OLD! POS drivers, but just used them for mockup,as they are 12".

And yes, it is a spare seat, springs started protruding through the bottom, so got new ones on the warranty, so these old ones are perfect to test out new stuff 

Removed a couple of JBL’s from one of my NF boxes today to try out with the JBL’s. Looks like it is doable, 2 JBL’s in each seat chassis, countersunk about 3.5inches up into the seat. Packed, but doable, i think. Will test more tomorrow.


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Nice experiment!


----------



## vn800art

My Good Lord!


----------



## Nalleh

Well, it was a pain in the behind to get the mounting right, a lot of measuring, had to invert one driver, offset them and a lot of fiddeling to get clearence for all the rods and underpinnings in the chassis of the recliner, but it is now tested with weight(people) in the seat, all positions of recline, and everyhing clears. So i now have a working prototype 

This is wieded from behind seat all reclined.









So i put the iso’s under and flipped it over, got a old AVR and cable from my iPhone, and got sound from them 

WOW, it works ! I only had full range sound to them, so it was far from perfect, only a proof of concept, but it actually works rather nice. It definetely gets the seat involved in the LFE, and i actually had no problem getting the driver to move pretty intensely

Bass I Love You had a pretty nice movement, it shook the seat pretty good. I tried with sine waves and down to 9-10hz it was awsome, but below that although the cone moved like crazy, it was not much felt in the seat. But that could be because of the hacked setup. I haven’t even glued the parts together, 2 screws hold each driver, and it was hodge-podged together to test it, so it has potensial, for sure. These "2xJBL inserts" are now made to integrate into my existing plattform and will replace the BK’s, as a test. A 4 x JBL BOSS, 2 under each seat.


----------



## justin casey

massage chair?


----------



## SBuger

Awesome @Nalleh !! Can't wait to hear your impressions on the BOSS once you get it into your platform and in place of the BKs.

I've been out for a while again, but was able to get back to it a bit yesterday. Looks like you and Aron been busy figuring out your next move, possibly some sort of mega BOSS, but this BOSS you've got going now will give you an idea I think if you'll like it or not. I'll be real curious how you like it compared to your BKs (and MAs of course). I kind of think it feels like a combo of both which is cool. Plus has a pretty incredible natural feel that is hard to deny. 

Got to start running some VS and playing with some stuff. I ran a VS yesterday on BOSS only and its pretty damn strong down to 10hz or so (below too probably, but we know how VS reads below 10hz sometimes). TONs of Z-axis below 30hz and not so much X and Y in this area (don't know what to think about that). Still feels pretty darn amazing though. But now I'm curious how my BKs would feel in comparison without the BOSS platform, because I used to absolutely LOVE my BKs + VNFs (I remember that combo used to scare me when I first got my new seat up into this room). So I went back though some of my old VS's from BKs only when I first got that new seat (the seats I'm in now but have 3 of them) just to see what they looked like. They looked pretty damn powerful as well, and with better Y axis compared to BOSS, and then X was just kinda meh though. But still ...I remember it just feeling insane as well, maybe even more so. And check out the extension (looks like it goes to 7-8z) even on WN0-50, which we know usually drops like a cliff below 10hz. But if it does feel more powerful/scrary, will it feel as natural, is the question.

Anyway, thought you might like to see these comparisons of the BOSS vs BKs (from my pre-BOSS setup with one seat) to give an idea from an objective perspective. 

BOSS only:









BKs ...


















The BKs got that nice rising House Curve thing going on too that I like. 

So back to the present, the MAs VS measurements don't look so hot on the BOSS platform and not combining the greatest under 15hz, not yet anyway, so will have to fool around with them all some more I guess. It still feels great and stronger in the over 15hz areas with the MAs combined, but is hurting my under 15hz which isn't cool, plus doesn't feel quite as natural in some scenes, but more scary lol. BOSS on its own did feel pretty amazing in a scene with on some 8hz content in IT though.

Overall combined with VNFs it still feels pretty hardcore like I mentioned in the BOSS thread last week, + really natural (which I love), but after a bit more messing around with BOSS with MAs + VNFs, I think I'm gonna move out the BOSS and set it back up with my old way with MAs, BKs, VNFs and the new style isos to see how it compares. Plus I've got a few new tricks to try with it too, involving not connecting my seats together, which is gonna make a huge diff I think. I've found out yesterday that connecting them like I was doing is killing my TR below 15hz as well and making it feel funky. Go figure!! Crazy. I think that is why I wasn't totally happy with the feel from my BKs ever since I got my 3rd seat moved in (and yes connected as well), and tried moving them to the back of my seats. 

LOL, I thought I was about done, but looks like I've got a bit more testing and messing with different stuff, subjectively and objectively. Because yet again, I've found that VS does not lie and is such an amazing tool. 95% of the time, it really does match up to what I feel subjectively

Anyway, looking forward to your impressions of the BOSS and if you like it, and if you do, seeing if you can get them all working together with your MAs in the ULF region better than I have been able to so far.


----------



## Sekosche

Any movie scenes that I could try a VibSensor measurement with that’s not EOT to compare? I’m curious what kind of TR I’m getting compared other people’s BOSS setup.

I’m watching Cloverfield now, and the overall TR is just bananas compared to Crowsons by themselves.


----------



## Nalleh

@SBuger: wow those VS looks awsome! That BOSS one has to be the flattest Z-axis i have seen from 10-30 hz ! Insane  And your BK’s too, awsome summed axis curves, holy cow 

But maybe the difference is because with the BK’s you had the MA’s in the rear(no iso there), so you get more rocking motion that includes more axis, while the BOSS one is full iso, and is free to move more concentrated on the Z-axis only.

I hear you about never being done, i just cut out the whole BK mounting setup from my plattform to make room for the BOSS, LOL. i only had it in there for a couple of months, LOL.

So BOSS better bring the goods, or i have done a lot of work for nothing,


----------



## Nalleh

Sekosche said:


> Any movie scenes that I could try a VibSensor measurement with that’s not EOT to compare? I’m curious what kind of TR I’m getting compared other people’s BOSS setup.
> 
> I’m watching Cloverfield now, and the overall TR is just bananas compared to Crowsons by themselves.


Try the opening scene in The Meg, and the submarine rescque, i did a VS of it in the Crowson thread not too long ago, it is insane when the hull starts to implode


----------



## BP1Fanatic

The Meg is an excellent test!


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> @SBuger: wow those VS looks awsome! That BOSS one has to be the flattest Z-axis i have seen from 10-30 hz ! Insane  And your BK’s too, awsome summed axis curves, holy cow
> 
> But maybe the difference is because with the BK’s you had the MA’s in the rear(no iso there), so you get more rocking motion that includes more axis, while the BOSS one is full iso, and is free to move more concentrated on the Z-axis only.
> 
> I hear you about never being done, i just cut out the whole BK mounting setup from my plattform to make room for the BOSS, LOL. i only had it in there for a couple of months, LOL.
> 
> So BOSS better bring the goods, or i have done a lot of work for nothing,



Thanks man! Yeah that Z-axis flatness on the BOSS is pretty crazy huh. I was actually amazed to see that when I ran VS, as I was expecting to see that huge 10-14hz spike and with lower 15hz and above like some of my previous VSs with MAs and BKs (and Subs). I think this is part of the reason I'm so damn impressed with the feel of the BOSS, as I do love me some Z axis AND that 15 to 25-30hz is SO important as well for that super aggressive TR feel, giving that hard to describe scary feeling and also 'trampolinish'. 

But I was surprised to see that I also didn't have that huge 10-14hz peak with everything above that severely lower above that with my BK VS readings from way back when I was in this room with the new seat. I know this is why I loved them back then, and not so much as I added seats. Because I started connecting them together and was creating this severely uneven TR response, dropping of a ton above 10-14hz. This is part of the reason I'm so curious to go back and try my MAs + BKs + VNFs + the new Isos, without the BOSS platform. It may feel even more insane than the BOSS + VNFs does now. Because there was a point with that 1 new chair (with 2 BKs attacked to it along with the 2 MAs and VNFs) that the intensity was so insane feeling (in that 12-30hz region) that I almost couldn't stand it, in a very very crazy good way. I'm not just talking about seat shake here (yes there was tons of that too), but I'm talking about that feeling of dropping off the end of log ride or roller coaster peaking at the top and headed back down, but sharper feeling internally within the body (like in the stomach, chest area). This kind of intensity just feesl absolutely insane and is out of this world cool IME. I'm getting a ton of this type of feel with the BOSS now, but it used to be even more insane feeling with that one new seat IIRC with the BKs+MAs+VNF. 

This is part of the reason I want to revisit my previous BK + MA + VNF config, knowing what I know now. That said, yesterday I ran that city chase scene in 'Venom' with it BEQ'd at -12.5mv and can't imagine it being much better. It seemed to have everything I wanted and lacked nothing, while feeling crazy natural. Felt like it had lots of single digit TR throughout, with lots of 10-20hz ULF and freaking crazy 20-30hz TR giving that super intense feeling I was trying to describe up above.

So about the differences of axis between the BOSS on older BK VS readings, yeah like you say, maybe more rocking motion with the BKs since I had the MAs in the back and not full iso like the BOSS is now. Which one will feel better, IDK. Guess I'll find out. I'm thinking the former, with more rocking motion. But maybe not, as the BOSS feels pretty damn amazing in so many ways. 

One thing I will say though, is I prefer the double stacked Isos on the BOSS (under the platform and on top as well) compared to just on the bottom of the BOSS and seating setting directly on the plywood on top (without isos). The VSs don't read quite as high with double stacked/series like your VS tests showed as well in the MA thread, BUT I like the feel of it better. At least with my seats that are pretty rigid. Its almost too borderline rigid without them stacked, but feels just perfect with double stacked, making it a little softer/less damped and more fluid feeling, if that makes sense. With your seating, you may feel you loose to much detail and feels too underdamped with double stacked/series Hudson isos. 

OK, so about your BOSS build and you cutting up your existing platform with your BKs in it. As excited as I am to hear how you like the BOSS, I wish you had kept that one like it is and just started with a new platform for BOSS and messing with the MAs with it, incase you don't like it and prefer your former for whatever reason. I feel like I'm partially to blame since I went crazy with my review of the BOSS + MA + VNF last week in the BOSS thread, as well as the MA thread I think. We both seem to really like the same types of TR so that may have pushed you into trying it. 

I still stand by that it is amazing, BUT I'm now finding that the MAs (at least with the settings that I was using) is not combining well under 15hz, and hurting the overall TR experience giving the BOSS + VNFs only the edge. I may be able to work this out, I'm got some ideas to help the MAs contribute mainly under 10hz (which is really what I want the MAs for anyway since the BOSS is so damn good at 10hz and above, although the singles feel amazing too). 

You may not have problems at all with your MAs combining well with your BOSS. I hope not. BUT, I'll be shocked if you don't just love the feel of the BOSS by itself + your VNFs. If you cant get your MAs to play nice and add to the experience, will it be enough for you will be the question, and the same question applies to me as well. Like I was saying up above, the BOSS + VNFs felt pretty amazing yesterday though and didn't really seem to be leaving anything to be desired. Except maybe even more of the stomach and seat dropping out form under you feel in the 12-30hz area AND more singles digits TR (which we know the MAs can bring big time) if I'm feeling ultra crazy and want all I can possible get and then some, But as always, setup and constructive combing with multiple TR devices is KEY. Without it, we are just causing more harm than good I think in the overall big picture TR (ei maybe a bit unnatural feeling in areas, causing some unwanted peaks and valleys etc). 

But if anyone can get it worked out and ALL working together, it's you  But if you can't and it's a no go and you have to rebuild your previous BK + MA platform, you can blame me for all the extra unnecessary woke ok


----------



## aron7awol

If the Z-axis movement is preferred, it makes me wonder about not putting the MAs in the rear only and instead putting them front and back, even in addition to the BOSS. I know someone tested rear only and rear+front with MAs at some point in the past and preferred rear only, but it seems most of us took that single test/experience/preference sort of as gospel and never tried them that way, at least I haven't.


----------



## Sekosche

aron7awol said:


> If the Z-axis movement is preferred, it makes me wonder about not putting the MAs in the rear only and instead putting them front and back, even in addition to the BOSS. I know someone tested rear only and rear+front with MAs at some point in the past and preferred rear only, but it seems most of us took that single test/experience/preference sort of as gospel and never tried them that way, at least I haven't.



This is probably why I liked my MA’s best staggered catty-corner under the MLP. I’m running them both in the back now about 3’ apart with the new isos and BOSS platform and it’s definitely a bit different than before.


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, got the BOSS up and running today. So i took out the 4x BK’s and replaced them with 4xJBL’s.
A LOT OF WORK!! And it is TIGHT!! As i didn’t want to raise the height any more, i had to get creative. Luckily i had spare seat bottoms, so i could mock everything up before putting into the excisting plattform. I got it offsett into the seat bottom about half of the depth of the drivers.
So after some final adjustments for the MA’s, i got it mounted today, it is a proper hack job, but i just wanted to test it, and it will be hidden under/in the seat, so no worries.









Here you can see the MA stack with its temp sensors. Complicated stuff, LOL.
And also how it all fits together with the spacer board and the metal brackets.











And then guess what happened??!!
It doesn’t recline!!! Only the footrest come out, but no further reclining! 
The new seat bottoms are different !!!!!!!!!!!
Everything looked the same and worked perfect on the mock-up seats, i even made sure the inserts was interchangable left/right, since the couch has a angled centerpiece, and then some rather important rods on each side underneath the chassis was a L beams instead of I beams. So instead of thight, it was a inch of interference!!

God dang it!! I had it mounted and ready for testing 2 hours before i had to go to work, but now i was gutted  So much for having a spare seat and taking the time to mock it up before mounting it !

Anyway i got the multicutter and started cutting some clearance and i got i to recline 50% of the way, and that was all i can get. And a even bigger hack job! Big bummer.

But then i could test a bit. This is still front iso only as the rear has the stacked MA’s, and first impressions based on that: it is a BK replacement, not a MA replacement 
As a stand alone TR device it is awsome for the money, but in my setup it doesn’t have near the same ferrosity and visceral shake as the BK’s in the same setup, and doesn’t go as low as the MA’s at all. I bottom them out pretty easy without getting much in the single digits and watching the start of The Meg again was a big Meeehhh.... experience.

But like i said it is still a front iso only setup, and i can easily test full iso with one layer of MA’s on top(replace the bottom layer MA’s with iso’s) or with MA’s under the full iso(replacing the top layer MA’s with iso’s) so i am not done.

More testing ahead


----------



## Nalleh

Here is what was changed on the seat. The old seat had the crossbar fastened much higher(blue marking), and the new one also has more holes to mount it even lower(red markings), these now interfere with the baseplate for the upper driver on each side, and the crossbar is planted on the edge of the driver basket.










However now that i see the problem, i can fix it by moving the crossbar further up again(some MCGyver stuff), and using the multicutter some more.


----------



## SBuger

WOW awesome job on getting two JBLs for each seat in there like that. Seriously creative!!!! So I assume you have the two facing down not inverted phase and the two facing up inverted phase right? If not, that could seriously hinder the JBLs I would think, and also the combining of the MAs and VNFs. 

Darn it though, about it being different and not quite clearing for recline from your mock up of from the other seat!!!! Very frustrating for sure!!

Sounds like you've got a plan for fixing though, even though a PITA!

As far as your initial impressions, doesn't surprise me at all that you don't like the BOSS much with the MAs on the bottom on the back. I HATED mine like that, as it pretty much totally killed all TR from the BOSS. 

I'll think you'll feel way different will full iso and no MAs on the bottom. Now, whether or not you'll like the MAs on top is a different story. BOSS should be like ....WAAAAAAAY better, but MAs maybe not so good. I guess you'll find out when you can. 

But, you still may not think the BOSS is as good compared to the BKs. The BK LFEs are indeed insane for sure and why I love them so much!!! But in my setup they feel super close to what I remember when my BKs where performing like I know they can when I didn't have me seats connected, plus way better in the singles more like MAs. I'll get to see sometime next week though just how good my BKs compare to the BOSS when I set it back up that way again without my seats connected.


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## Nalleh

^^^^ Yeah, like i said it was TIGHT, LOL.
YES, the bottom facing is in phase with the one facing up out of phase.

Yeah, i almost cried when i discovered they wouldn’t recline  "What the funk, i had it mocked up and it worked", i yelled out, LOL. Pretty stressed too about leaving for work untested, so i wasn’t happy.

But now i think it’s fixable 

And good to hear about not optimal unless full iso, i remember you saying that and was half expecting it, but the BK’s didn’t seem to mind, LOL, so i thought to test in same conditions.

And yes, i will blame you if it doesn’t work ! Damn you and you awsome reviews, LOL ...



(Just kidding, man)


----------



## Sekosche

Nalleh said:


> And then guess what happened??!!
> 
> It doesn’t recline!!! Only the footrest come out, but no further reclining!
> 
> So instead of that, it was a inch of interference!!



Aww that sucks, and I feel your pain. I did this exact thing when I tested BK’s out, spent quite a bit of time, and got it all mounted really well under each seat only to find out I had maybe 1/4” too little clearance for the freaking chairs to recline, so that was also a reason I didn’t keep them at the time.

Going to post some VibSensor measurements for the BOSS in a few, see what y’all think.


----------



## Sekosche

*My 11.4.12 &quot;Franken-Atmos&quot; living room.*

Incoming VibSensor from The Meg a few scenes. I tested in my seat and directly on the BOSS platform, and now I know why I have a hard time keeping my feet on The BOSS platform if I’m not reclining, the Z axis power is consistently through the roof, between 1e-1 and 1e-0 on the log scale, so getting roughly 10 or 20 times more energy into my legs that way than most my measurements from the seat.

What do you think? Used a 4lb bag of sugar for weight.









Directly on BOSS platform same scene as previous graph 00:02:20:


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## SBuger

@Sekosche - those VS readings look awesome!! Pretty hardcore TR there on The MEG and down deep into ULF territory too (remember VS doesn't usually show well under 10hz, even if your getting a lot below, but looks great down to that point and a little below too on some). Also, your X and Y axis look pretty decent in comparison to Z. Better than on my BOSS. Does it feel pretty good still? From what you were saying the other day, it sure did. It should with those VS measurements!!

I think your officially a FULL BAND TR BIG DOG now!!!!   Not that you weren't with your MA's already, but this confirms your getting the goods now for sure LOL 

LOL, yep, I can see why it feels so strong on your feet, because that's pretty insane Z axis TR directly on the BOSS platform it self.


----------



## Sekosche

*My 11.4.12 &quot;Franken-Atmos&quot; living room.*



SBuger said:


> @Sekosche - those VS readings look awesome!! Pretty hardcore TR there on The MEG and down deep into ULF territory too (remember VS doesn't usually show well under 10hz, even if your getting a lot below, but looks great down to that point and a little below too on some). Also, your X and Y axis look pretty decent in comparison to Z. Better than on my BOSS. Does it feel pretty good still? From what you were saying the other day, it sure did. It should with those VS measurements!!
> 
> 
> 
> I think your officially a FULL BAND TR BIG DOG now!!!!   Not that you weren't with your MA's already, but this confirms your getting the goods now for sure LOL
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, yep, I can see why it feels so strong on your feet, because that's pretty insane Z axis TR directly on the BOSS platform it self.


Still feels awesome! Really enjoying the BOSS for what it adds. I’m getting a lot more TR across the legs and arms with my chairs reclining than before, so that’s also sweet. The 15-40Hz energy is just crazy with the BOSS in the loop, and that’s basically the wheelhouse of all the best bass films, so I expect an awesome TR return on investment for every movie.

Forgot to mention those graphs were obviously with BEQ applied for The Meg.

I noticed how most my measurements drop off quick at 10Hz in my seat, but maybe that’s just VS not reading well that low; oddly, the direct on the BOSS measurements read very smooth down well below 10Hz to DC, but surely that’s not totally accurate, as I really doubt these little drivers are capable of that kind of intensity in the single digits. Could be a resonance from the Crowsons that sit on the platform.


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## Nalleh

^^ @Sekosche. Awsome VS readings, man. Looks great 
Interesting about the flat to DC when measured right on the plattform, that is indeed insane !

This was with MA’s mounted but not active, right? And you have kind of the same plattform setup as @SBuger with: iso > plattform/JBL’s > iso/MA > seat, right?


----------



## Nalleh

I fixed the reclining problem today, i moved the crossbar to only the upper 2 bolts instead of the 4, and that made it clear the BOSS, and then a little more work with the multicutter(genious tool) and i could recline all the way. The outer corners of the top driver base plate looks like someone chewed on it, LOL, but now it works 

A pic from the front showing both upfacing drivers.
Left lower pic is footrest up, not reclined, and right pic is all reclined showing the crossbar now clearing past the driver.










And here are some pics of "the prototyping". Early test to find what dimensions i had to go on. ALL of this project was made with scrap pieces from my earlier sub builds, so it was free in that regard.










Somewhat finished prototype BOSS insert 










And from the back side, showing how the driver fit each other. I added some more bracing after this, so it ended up rather stiff, even if it looks like swiss cheese here, LOL.


----------



## DesertDog

Sekosche said:


> Incoming VibSensor from The Meg a few scenes.


Is there are list of VibSensor readings and parameters to use anywhere to compare to? Preferably not the Meg since I don't have it.  I'm curious how I compare.


----------



## Sekosche

DesertDog said:


> Is there are list of VibSensor readings and parameters to use anywhere to compare to? Preferably not the Meg since I don't have it.  I'm curious how I compare.




There’s quite a few posts in the VibSensor specific thread, but a lot of them use the EOT intro for the test. Like a lot of people, I got tired of using that movie as a benchmark for anything, but it’s good for MA calibration; I did record a few runs when I got the Crowsons and posted them there.

Pick another movie or two and I’ll try and do some as well to compare, as I’m curious too. Maybe the ones @SBuger posted in the BEQ thread are a good start since they’re time stamped.

I thought the Hulk street fight scene and War of the Worlds pod emerging were about to rip my couch/platform apart the TR was so visceral and sharp, so I’m wondering how those compare. They’re much longer though, maybe do just a minute of each and let me know the timestamp or vice versa. I might record those two scenes when I get home.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Yeah any of those scenes (or small areas) in those time stamps I listed would be good @DesertDog. You can run any you think bring the goods in LF or ULF or both. Like the pulse scene your really fond of of whatever. Readings usually read the best at about 10-20 seconds, but longer can work too, it just gets real squiggly the longer the record time. Yep anything in TIH should be awesome to VS, and WOTW. You might also run the White Noise 0-50hz file as well (there is a link to it in the VibSensor thread), or even a 0-50hz sweep, just to see how your overall TR looks from at least 10-30hz. VS seems to be the most accurate in this area, but can show over 30hz to 50hz pretty decent too. But under 10hz (at least not when singled out like a specific sine wave), usually doesn't read so great, even if your getting great single digit response.


----------



## SBuger

That's damn impressive @Nalleh how you fit those JBLs in there!!!


----------



## Sekosche

*My 11.4.12 &quot;Franken-Atmos&quot; living room.*

Here’s a few scenes from The Hulk and War of the Worlds, timestamp in the graphs. The 30Hz TR after the pod emerges and starts vaporizing people is unreal! This is with the Crowson’s LPF @ 25 and BOSS @35 I believe. I did not bother with BEQ for these bass monsters. 

Curious how these compare to your setups @DesertDog @SBuger @Nalleh :









Edit: added a BR 2049 scene as the 25-35Hz bass is pure insanity with the BOSS.


----------



## SBuger

@Sekosche - dude, those are some awesome VS readings!! And yeah I bet that one 30hz scene in WOTW and BR2049 is insane feeling!! Real high 25-30hz can feel downright wicked when it starts getting up there. The BOSS feels awesome in this area for sure.

So do you feel like your MAs are adding to the BOSS pretty good then across the board, like 30's down into the singles? 

I'll have to give those a run and VS them when I get a chance. I've got my BOSS moved out now and my old setup back up and running so I can compare it. Was curious since I've spent about a week with the BOSS. I wont get much time to mess with it until Monday or so though. I'll try to VS some of the time stamps you did and see what they look like for comparison. I'll try to do it with the BOSS too after I check out my previous way. 

Sounds like your having a ton of fun with your new found TR!!  Way cool!!


----------



## Sekosche

SBuger said:


> @Sekosche - dude, those are some awesome VS readings!! And yeah I bet that one 30hz scene in WOTW and BR2049 is insane feeling!! Real high 25-30hz can feel downright wicked when it starts getting up there. The BOSS feels awesome in this area for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> So do you feel like your MAs are adding to the BOSS pretty good then across the board, like 30's down into the singles?
> 
> 
> 
> I'll have to give those a run and VS them when I get a chance. I've got my BOSS moved out now and my old setup back up and running so I can compare it. Was curious since I've spent about a week with the BOSS. I wont get much time to mess with it until Monday or so though. I'll try to VS some of the time stamps you did and see what they look like for comparison. I'll try to do it with the BOSS too after I check out my previous way.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like your having a ton of fun with your new found TR!!  Way cool!!



Yes, I feel like they’re working well together.

I’ve only been running a single Crowson under the MLP and the other on MLP2 since adding the BOSS, should probably move them both back under my side and stagger them for optimal TR, but it feels just ask good if not way better in the


----------



## DesertDog

Sekosche said:


> Here’s a few scenes from The Hulk and War of the Worlds, timestamp in the graphs. The 30Hz TR after the pod emerges and starts vaporizing people is unreal! This is with the Crowson’s LPF @ 25 and BOSS @35 I believe. I did not bother with BEQ for these bass monsters.
> 
> Curious how these compare to your setups @DesertDog @SBuger @Nalleh :


Cool, I'll try to get some readings on mine tonight. It might have to wait until tomorrow though. I'm not sure if I have anything to weight my phone down. It's one of the drawbacks of not eating grains or keeping raw sugar around. I'll have to see if I have something about 4 lbs that will do the job.


----------



## Nalleh

Awsome info guys. I moved the VS discussion to its thread as it belong more there, and more TR junkies can join


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## vn800art

Hello! Can You post the direct link to the thread You mentioned? Very interesting , thanks @Nalleh
Regards
Alessandro


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## Nalleh

vn800art said:


> Hello! Can You post the direct link to the thread You mentioned? Very interesting , thanks @Nalleh
> Regards
> Alessandro


Sure 

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-...ccelerometer-test-thread-68.html#post57961292


----------



## Nalleh

Here is a (child) drawing of how i intend to test full iso with the MA’s either above or below the BOSS full iso plattform.


----------



## Nalleh

More SLAPS.

Ok, so now i have emptied one NF box of 4x JBL’s and use them for the BOSS, so that means i have 2 NF boxes left with 8xJBL’s as nearfield. And one empty box. So i was thinking of options i can do with what i have already. So i leave one NF box as is, and with the 4 remaining JBL’s and 2 boxes i can do one of the following:

1. Leave box nr.2 as is and use the 8xJBL’s as they are today in the 4cf boxes. And put the third empty box in storage(yellow curve).
2. Use 2xJBL in each of the 2 boxes for 2cf pr driver, and seal the two unused holes in the boxes. Gain ~ 4dB down low(blue curve).
3. Same but convert to ported. The port will be a problem though. Gain ~12dB down low(green curve).
4. Same only PR using the SLAPS. Put one SLAPS with 1200 grams mass added in the third hole and seal the 4th along the 2x JBL. Gain ~10 dB down low(cyan curve).

Here is the Winisd.










Could be i end up with the same SPL as with the 3 boxes i had, expect in the single digits.


----------



## eeyoreDK

Hi Nalleh
I finally got around to building my subwoofers. I build 4 subs with two GT-X1200 in each, wired in parallel for 2 ohm load. The cabinets are 436x420x760mm (WxDxH) as they had to fit in my existing baffle wall.They are powered by two Behringer NX3000D amps. They had been playing fine and really well most of the weekend and yesterday. Today I wanted to do some measurements and put on a 20Hz test tone at moderate level. I went into the home theater and started measuring, when suddenly the subs started to hum strangely. Before I got to the amps in the other room, one of them died with a loud bang and the other one shutdown right after. Both amps are dead and they destroyed two of the subs also. All 4 GT-X1200 has problems moving the membrane and there is a scratching noise, so I guess the the voice coil is fried. Have you ever blown any of your JBL's or Behringer Amps? I am clueless to what happened, I have pushed them a lot harder during the weekend without any problems or clipping. If I remember correctly my watt meter showed around 400W consumption (both amps) so each JBL was not getting more than roughly 50W.








































On an upside my BOSS platform for the front row was finished and that thing is a monster. I have to dial it way down otherwise it gets downright uncomfortable. It uses 6 GT-X1200 driven by another NX3000D which has me worried after today's experience. The JBL's are wired 2x 3 in parallel and then series for 2,66 ohm load. Putting 150W into the BOSS is about where it starts to become uncomfortable and 75-100 watts is probably where I will end up after adjustment, so roughly 15W per JBL. I will have to cannibalize two of them for one of the dead subs and luckily I have two spares laying around, as they are out of stock until end of june. I think that the BOSS will do fine with 4 JBL's wired for 4 ohm.


























The BOSS in action placed on 8 1,25" ISO's from Hudson, 11Hz and 340W, very very uncomfortable https://i.imgur.com/S8jJEoa.mp4


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Awsome work, @eeyoreDK. That should work really well, both the subs and the BOSS.

However as noted in the other thread, playing sine waves for minutes at a time, is not a good idea, ever.

And also, i would not use that kind of stuffing in the boxes. The fiberglass/glass isolation used open like that, the fibers/glass particles can get into the coil/magnet trough the cooling vent and rub like a sanding paper, and possible destroy the driver. I would rather use poly pillows as stuffing.


LOVE the available space you have under your recliners, though


----------



## eeyoreDK

Is the fiberglass really that bad, it has been used for years in speaker boxes? I used compressed air to remove lose fibers and particles and also gave it a light vacuuming after mounting it in the boxes, but if there is a risk of damaging more drivers/amps I better change it. I have destroyed enough stuff for a while.
Speaking of destroyed stuff, the drivers in the two subs that survived have a light burned/warm smell. They seem to work fine though and make no mechanical noises when playing, but is there a change of them going bad and killing more amps?


----------



## Nalleh

Yeah, i would not use that as stuffing. Better safe than sorry. You could put it in a pillow case or something to stop the dust from them, but this kind of isolation is never recommended to have open, even in houses where they are supposed to used. They dust for years..

Speakers can smell burnt and still works just fine, have had that happened several times, so i don’t think you need to worry


----------



## Sekosche

How’s your BOSS build coming along?


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## Nalleh

Sekosche said:


> How’s your BOSS build coming along?


Not feeling it yet....

But short version from a couple of short tests after converting to full iso:

Less single digits from the BOSS than the MA’s.
Less 12-25hz (and WAY TO MUCH ABOVE 30-40hz) from the BOSS than the BK’s.
Less single digits from using just one layer of MA’s.
Less single digits from using iso’s under the MA’s.


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## Nalleh

And then there is this :


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## SBuger

Just sent you about it and the other convo we had going. So sorry to hear that man!!! Back to what worked so well for you then!!


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## Sekosche

Nalleh said:


> And then there is this :



Nice, is that a super PR seat build?

That’s too bad about your BOSS experience.
I think your TR might have already been so high the way you were setup, modifying it for the BOSS was only detrimental.

The MA’s are definitely a lot stronger below ~15Hz, and you have a ton of them, but my BOSS carries very high energy over my previous setup, especially across 20-35Hz with only 2 MA’s to carry the bottom end. I’m still hitting a PSD around and over 1e-01 at 10Hz during scenes that call for it, but my 15-20Hz seems to drop off a bit in most the VS scenes I measured, might just be the content though as I haven’t ran any WN 0-50 or sweeps to verify my overall TR response. The soft isos alone seem to really boost the 10Hz TR on their own.

It’s definitely a lot more complex mixing this many transducers to achieve a similar and well blended effect, but you’re a lot better at calibrating these things. I hope the current project you’re working on adds more of what you’re looking for.


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Loving the experiments!


----------



## Nalleh

Got some work/tests done today.

Made some progress with the BOSS setup today. Weird how everybody finds different ways of configuring their setup, but putting the MA’s BELOW the iso’s gave better results over here, both on VS and the ol’ butt meter 

So here are some VS comparisons, all with the same clip: The Meg at 02:20. Same settings as before.
Top left are old setup with stack MA, 4xBK and 8 HU iso’s front iso only, and right top is full iso.
Left bottom is full iso BOSS+ 4x MA with MA’s above the rear iso’s.
Right bottom is same only MA’s below the rear iso’s.










Not to bad, and now it’s starting to get fun again 
And here is a sweep, only difference is MA above and below iso’s.










Below iso’s has bigger numbers overall.


And i got one of the SLAPS boxes done. So i removed 2 of the JBL’s, replaced one with a SLAPS M12 and sealed the last hole. So, 4cf, 2 active drivers(JBL) and 1 PR.
Connected in series to a NU6K channel, so 8ohms.
Her is a close mic of the 4xJBL 4cf sealed vs 2xJBL 4cf PR. No EQ and all levels were the same. But that may be wrong since it it 8ohm vs 4ohm?
(Also a close mic of the PR)










Running out of time, so just threw on the same EQ as the 4xJBL box,, and here is the FR of them seperate and together.










The FR follows all the way down !! It has a small dip ~16hz, but still contributes to the ULF all the way down, LOL. This is with NO EXTRA MASS ADDED!! So only the mass as included, like 255grams.

And the TR!! Holy moly it has tons more TR than the other 4xJBL box! And it is felt pretty much down past 10hz, same as the 4xJBL box.
Initial impression is actually WOW! Considering it only has 2 JBL’s, no mass added, and still hangs with it’s 4xJBL cousin, is mighty impressive 

But it moves a bit more than it’s cousin too, LOL. I need to fix a way to keep it from walking over the floor, but other than that i am optimistic 

Looks a bit funny though


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## SBuger

^^^ Nice!! So liking the BOSS a little better then with the isos above MAs? Or do you still prefer the feel of the BKs + MA stack vs single layer of MAs with isos on top of the MAs + BOSS?

Either way, sounds like the SLAPS are gonna help from the VNFs no matter which direction you go ...BOSS + MAs with Iso on top of MAs or back to the previous way with stacked MAs + BKs.

OR, put your SLAPS in place of the JBLs in the BOSS under your seat, especially if they are making that much of a TR difference in the VNFs. Man, them things looks so beefy compared to the JBLs LOL

Awesome man, glad to hear your making progress!!


----------



## Nalleh

Yeah, as opposed to you where MA under the plattform didn’t work at all, it actually improved the TR in my setup. So strange, but it seems in my setup it is the best compromise.

I am not at the same level as the old setup, but it is much better now, although i barely had time to test, however the remotes were shaking of the couch again during The Meg, so that is a good sign  (Probably sounds crazy for normal people, LOL)

I was actually most impressed with the difference the SLAPS made, i could actually feel the improved TR from the RIGHT NF box while sitting in the LEFT seat !!

So yeah, now i am thinking what if i mounted the SLAPS downfiring in the NF boxes, and then put them and the couch on a new plywood plattform with Hudson’s underneath. I actually think just 2 of the SLAPS would be insane! 

During the demo clip i did earlier, the PR box vibrated over the floor and pushed it self into the couch(that’s good 4 inches), and almost ruined the surround on one if the JBL’s, LOL. So it has potensial for sure


----------



## SBuger

Since I seem to really like the JBLs in my full riser version boss, I just may have to try dropping a SLAT in place of the JBLs. Could even do two per seat. I've got about 2" clearance between the top of riser and reclining bar underneath the seats since I've also got the height of the MAs and isos in there, plus about 6" of clearance space underneath from plywood to carpet on floor. Could probably fit them pretty easy and could be pure TR insanity!!!!

Here we go again, just about when I thought I was done ...you gotta do this with the SLATS!!!  

I'm gonna at least *TRY* to a least enjoy what I've got for a while though. But you know how that goes once you get something in your head that you wanna try LOL


----------



## Nalleh

LOL, you realize a SLAPS is a passive radiator? As in a alternative to a port, and as such need a otherwise sealed box and active driver to work


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## SBuger

^^^ LOL yeah I was just thinking about that. I guess if I wanted to use it in the Boss, I'd need to leave one JBL in under the seat and its platform, then seal the box with the SLAP in it as well, which is doable since I've been getting great results with it setting on the ground anyway, making it a 'leaky sealed box' but still. IDK, may work, may not, but got me kind of excited thinking about it hahaha. What I experienced with the new setup last night though with tons of isos I honestly don't know that I need it. But I guess one could always use more under 10hz, if you could get more under 10hz out of it.


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## eeyoreDK

Hi Nalleh
Did you do anything the prevent the stuffing pillows from blocking the speaker pole vents or getting stuck between the cage and cone?
I was thinking about using 4 of these in each cabinet. The cabinet volume is 4 cubic feet, so the ratio would be 0,9 pound per cubic foot. A little less than the recommended 1 pound per cubic foot.

https://jysk.dk/sovevaerelse/puder/fiberfyld/basic/pude-400g-breidtinden-fiber-60x63-70


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## Nalleh

eeyoreDK said:


> Hi Nalleh
> Did you do anything the prevent the stuffing pillows from blocking the speaker pole vents or getting stuck between the cage and cone?
> I was thinking about using 4 of these in each cabinet. The cabinet volume is 4 cubic feet, so the ratio would be 0,9 pound per cubic foot. A little less than the recommended 1 pound per cubic foot.
> 
> https://jysk.dk/sovevaerelse/puder/fiberfyld/basic/pude-400g-breidtinden-fiber-60x63-70


Those should work fine. I used 4 of the 700gram ones, and it was no problem with the vent or cone. Just make sure you tuck them well arround the sides and not right behind the vent. I have opened mine since i first assembled them, and the pillows hasn’t moved, so the way you leave them when assembling should not change. 

I have 4cf boxes too, and like i said no problem fitting the almost double your size pillows in there


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## eeyoreDK

I got 16 pillows and replaced the fiberglass insulation. I had to staple them to the sides and backside of the front baffle, otherwise they would completely fill the cabinet and block the pole vent.
The cabinets does not sound quite as dead, when knocking on them, as they did with the fiberglass, but it is close.


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## Nalleh

That looks much better 

But are those boxes 4cf each? And you use 4x 400grams pillows in each box?

Strange... as i said my boxes are also 4cf and i use 4 of the (edit)750gram pillows, and i got plenty of space left:


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## eeyoreDK

Yes, the internal volumen is 111,6 liters (3,94 cubic feet). The pillows are quite thick and fully stuffed despite being only 400 grams each. Yours looks a lot less stuffed, perhaps the fibers in yours have a higher density?


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## Nalleh

eeyoreDK said:


> Yes, the internal volumen is 111,6 liters (3,94 cubic feet). The pillows are quite thick and fully stuffed despite being only 400 grams each. Yours looks a lot less stuffed, perhaps the fibers in yours have a higher density?


Ok.
Yes, your look a lot more fluffy than mine. Should be good either way


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## Nalleh

This could also be a way to use the SLAPS for a BOSS function(sorry again for the crude Autocad drawing )


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## Nalleh

Hmm.... 2x used SI18HT popped up for sale nearby.....


Boss?...... NF?.......

Hmmm ......


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## SBuger

^^^ Yeah go for it Nalleh!!  you be the guinea pig this time and try out the 18's in the BOSS hahahaha. If you say its good, then I'll put mine in, instead of in the VNF cabs behind my seats. Sounds like GK sure likes them and makes sense they would be way better than the 12's. Those IB drivers of his are probably pretty insane though with those specs!! Our normal 18's may make a huge diff too though. I'd be real supersized if they didn't. There is just not quite enough meat and excursion on these 12's by themselves in the BOSS to be super potent down low. Well at least not when fully isolated likes its supposed to be. Its another story when on the ground with no isos on my suspended floor, the ULF TR is pretty insane surprisingly and is what I posted the VS's on the other day in the VS thread. BUT, it densest feel as good as being fully isolated. Always pros and cons to everything it seems. Maybe, just maybe the 18's got give all one would need down low, but a con would be the height for sure. 

Sounds like your SLAPS in your cabs behind your seats are killer already so ..... (not sure if the 18's would have anything on them at all ..probably not).

If only the riser didn't have to be so damn high with the 18's I think I'd have already done it. May be worth it though since I seem to be struggling getting my BKs to feel right below about 18hz these days in my seats (at least with BEQ anyway). Kind of bums me out, because we both know those things are BRUTE!! I do seem to love the BOSS with the 12's for the most part, BUT I know the 18's would smash the hell out of them down low!!


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## Nalleh

^ Haha, yeah i knew you were going to say that, LOL. I will know more tomorrow 

It would be awsome to test with some 18"s NF because of what you say about yours. I know my JBL NF’s are similar on paper, but i am not sure i get the wobble from mine, that you say you get from yours. So getting a 18" NF would answere that question.

If i get them, man do i have some testing ahead: NF vs BOSS vs MA vs BK’s vs PR NF vs PR BOSS 12" vs 18" vs downfiring vs upfiring, under seat BOSS(high plattform) vs cantilever low riser(driver behind seat). My head is spinning just from all the ideas, lol.

The 18"s was included DIYSG 4cf boxes too, so plug and play


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## SBuger

LOL yeah that is a LOT of stuff to try out!!!!!  And I cant think of a better person for the job, seriously!! You've got a ton of experience with TR, and not just any TR, the best of the best TR already with your previous setup, + your just great at testing it all objectively (as well as subjective) and then documenting it. I'm grateful for all your testing and will really look forward to all your upcoming tests of it all!! It will be a lot of testing, but super cool to have all these options for TR. 

Yeah my 18" VNFs can really bring the ULF TR. Well they used too anyway, when my seats were lower. They used to bring it so much that I was shocked to find out that my BKs and MAs were turned down way too low to even be contributing ULF there for a while (about the time I first started reviewing some of those BEQ'd movies in the BEQ thread). I mean, my floor resonance around 12hz helps a ton for sure for wobble power, but it worked with the VNFs great and would just wobble the heck out of me down that low.


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## Sekosche

*My 11.4.12 &quot;Franken-Atmos&quot; living room.*

Aaaaw come on man, y’all are a terrible influence! 

You’ve got me looking at my 18” Dayton driver I’m not using and thinking of its BOSS potential. The only problem is the surround alone sticks up a full inch over the mounting frame, so I’d have to add at least a couple more inches height for ground clearance and the basket width might be a little wide to fit in my empty seat cavities where the current drivers are (about 11” to play with). The 460HO driver has 2.8 times the moving mass of the JBL but only an extra mm of Xmax, so maybe it’d be like using three of the 12” drivers but with a lower Fs of 20Hz and thus greater ULF and TR potential than the JBL with an Fs of 28Hz. I’ve already got 6 JBL drivers on hand so no point in letting them go to waste and don’t really want to mix and match.

After someone mentioned the Dayton classic driver, the Classic 15” actually looks to be a pretty solid option for a budget BOSS woofer ($80) with an Fs of 17.5Hz, and with 66% more mms but 25% less Xmax than the JBL so not sure how that’d shake out. I’m guessing any similar woofer with a significantly lower Fs should provide great TR below 25Hz where the JBL is a little lacking compared to Crowsons, but I’m not sure all the driver parameters that equate to awesome TR in such a platform.

I haven’t built the second BOSS platform yet and am second guessing myself now on driver choice, dang it! I think the JBL is a great little driver for it’s super low sale price, but if for just a bit more money...


----------



## Nalleh

LOL, yeah this is a terrible place to be for sure, there is always something new, bigger and better, haha.

I was extremly happy with my stack and BK’s, but here we are, LOL.

If i had a 18" laying around unused, there is no doubt i would try it, man !! DO IT!

Yeah, in order to get all this tested, i am thinking i need to temporary disconnect the 3-piece couch and just do the testing on my seat, it is too much work doing it on the whole couch each time. And then i need to think of and build some kind of modular plattform so i can test all variants and combos in a easy repeatable way.

I think a plattform kind of like in the drawing a few posts up, with some clever MDF/plywood insert could be used for all tests. 

Damn that @Gorilla Killa and his 18" monster mega BOSS !


----------



## Nalleh

Well, gosh darn it, i went and did it !










These are the SI18HT MK1’s, but they actually have more MMS than MK2, so i guess better for a BOSS use. 

They came with DIYSG 4cf flat pack boxes and speakons, so they are plug and play 










Duratex’ed and with heavy duty caster wheels on them 
It always surpriseses me, but 18" is BIG!










So these will either be used for NF duty, and with the JBL’s for BOSS. Or visa versa, depending on how they perform.

Either way, i can now test if there is a difference between 1x18" as NF vs what i have today with 4xJBL 12", behind each seat.


----------



## Nalleh

T/S for the mk2 to the left and mk1 to the right:


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## SBuger

Oh dang ....hell yeah Nalleh!!! Let the testing begin hehehehe 

Yeah will be interesting to see how they perform behind your seats compared to 4 JBL 12's behind you, as well as the SlATS subjectively and objectively. Run a VS on them behind you when you get a chance and see how they compare to the VNFs 'only' reading that I posted in the VibSensor thread the other day. That was with the platform setting on the ground. They do pretty good that way and can really be felt. BTW, I'm back to having the platform on the ground again with no ISO's, but isos on top of the platform this time. I haven't posted anything about it yet, but I'm sure the readings will look real similar to what I posted the other day. All combined the ULF TR feels pretty damn crazy. It seems to give the most power in the ULF this way for whatever reason. It's probably hitting up close to 1e+00 on WN-50hz the closer it gets to 10hz (at my reference levels) just like the last readings when setup this way (had no isos at all then though, bottom or top). Isos on top does seems to soften it just about right now though, making it less jarring and more fluid. Was super happy with it today. 

Iv'e been though so many configs lately, but I think I may have found my sweet spot setup finally. At least for now. Since I'm sealed again on the floor (or leaky sealed), I think I may try the SLATS in there as well for an experiment just to see how they do, eventually. May work great, may not. Either way though, I'm pretty stoked about the setup now with just the JBLs with platform on the floor, MAs on top, and VNFs combined. Don't know that I need much more, but I'm sure if the SLATS work, it just shoot the low end though the roof to inane levels form what you said about them. 

oh yeah, I think I'm gonna try the BK LFE's one more time too, but just not have them contribute much at all under 18hz, as they just don't feel right to me on my seats lower than this. I wish this wasn't so, but it is. 
I'm really looking forward to all your testing!!!! Depending on how your 18's do in the BOSS if you try them that way, I may try them as well, but not super motivated to change what I have ATM. Your tests may persuade me, even if it may set me up higher than I want


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Sounds like you are doing a good deal of testing yourself, LOL. Good work, man 

Well, the JBL do look tiny in comparison, LOL










Wheeled it into place for NF duty










Laying down the box gets it closer to the seatback, so it doesn’t get more NF than this(actually dragged it a bit away from couch to take pic).










And i modified the plattform today, so i can now do test just on my left seat, much easier. At the same time i now reconfigured to MA only under plattform, dual layer and 2x Hudson iso in front.

Not sure if it is the return to proper MA setup(front iso only again), or if it is the SI18 NF, but it feels more smooth again, soft deep effertless TR 

Preliminary check indicate the SI18 can be used for BOSS with ~ 7 inch high plattform.
And since the height limit i have used on plattform is out the door, i think i can get 4 JBL under there with a 5 inch height.

Not included iso’s though.

And i haven’t even started testing yet. This will be fun


----------



## Nalleh

Just a quick test today.
So this info affects the results, so be aware:
4X JBL NF is in the middle position behind couch.
SI18 NF is behind the left seat.

And 2x2 stack of MA is under left seat. And levels are mostly as when in use.

So here i sweeps with the different TR components:

Note: JBL’s is to the left of position, while the SI is right behind, which probably account for the level difference.
1 layer MA isn’t as jagged as it looks, it just has a very different scaling than the rest, because of a tigher result.










And here they are summed. As soon as MA are involved, extension goes below 10hz  :










And just using the same EQ as the JBL’s worked great, here is FR:

Note: mic is in center of couch, which accounts for the level difference between JBL and SI.


----------



## Nalleh

Here we go again.

Madness.... Madness i tell you , LOL.










It seems i can manage about 4 inch recessed up into seat chassis, so about 5.5 inch height on plattform. But i need a bit more opening below than just the iso. Just the surround is 1.5 inch height, so i probably need at least 3 inch clearance floor to plattform.

So total plattform height from floor about 9inch.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ WOW!!!! Oh hell yeah, I cant wait to hear about your thoughts on this!!!! Awesome job with the mount my TR lovin' friend!!! Looks insane, and hopefully it'll feel like it too!!    

EDIT: Cool that you have that recess to help out with height!! I don't have any of that, so basically if I do the 18's I'll have to mount them with driver up and it'll put my at least 10-12" with the MAs in there with the isos. Might be worth it, IDK.


----------



## Sekosche

Omg, that’s awesome and looks insane for a single seat. The thought of a rocket strapped to your butt comes to mind! Here I am today working on my little ol’ 6 JBL driver BOSS.


----------



## Nalleh

Thanks guys 
I will probably get it done tomorrow, so i can test the rocket launcher, LOL.


----------



## Nalleh

Up and running with the mini(one seat)mega(18")BOSS today 

It was actually easier to make than the dual push-pull 12" setup i tried earlier. But tall !!
So it is full iso with the stack MA on top and front iso on the MA’s.
This is the BOSS «unit».










With the stacked MA’s in the rear(this project too was made from scrap pieces to test it).










View from the rear.










Below.










Front.










Here can be seen the bottom iso’s for the BOSS and the top layer iso’s for the MA’s.










Looks kind of silly, LOL.










First impressions.

PROS.
This is insane! The 18" BOSS has the power to shake you silly, holy cow!! It is defenitely a upgrade over 2x12" JBL, that’s for sure, even with 3 inch clearance under the plattform, it moves almost to the floor, LOL. But it also bottoms out, if i push it.
It is violent, and the closest i can think of is the BK’s, from 15 to 30-40hz. The 18" doesn’t seem to have same problem as the 12", i can actually run it full(LFE) range, and it doesn’t sound overbeaing like the 12" does, funny enough.

This is the highest number i have recorded on VS! It goes to LIMIT on the Z axis, that’s a given, but the other numbers is just staggering, new record on The Meg clip, LOL.

Old stack MA+BK on top, left is front iso, right is full iso.
And SI18 BOSS +stack MA in the bottom, boss level matched TR wise to the left, and normal level to the right.










CONS:
The plattform height !! It is just silly! I don’t think i can live with that, LOL. It feels like i am sitting on a throne, LOL. This kind of height on a plattform requires a big, full plattform, not just something under your seat.
The jiggle! It is so annoying when your slightest movement in the seat results in a jiggle and keeps jiggling.

Still no single digit from the BOSS!!
Even with the MA’s on full iso, it flat out outperforms the 18" BOSS in the single digits! With just one layer of MA! Dual layer is just in another league! And still on full iso!

That was the AHA- moment i had when in preparation for this test i went back to proper front iso only stack MA  The presice, nuanced, detailed TR power of the MA, as it should be.

So i am testing more tomorrow, have some more ideas, and i want to test the downfiring SLAPS too, but i am considering going back to the stack MA+BK, as that is still the best total package i have had so far. Optimal function of the stack MA, no compromises, and the BK’s could still hammer you silly even in a front iso only setup. Something the BOSS can’t do. And if a 18" can’t do it, no amount of 12"s can either


----------



## SBuger

^^^ 

WOW man!! what a rig up you got there with that huge 18" sub fit in like that. Very impressive to say the least, as always the way you managed to get in all in there!!

Nice tests too! Yeah I would imagine that 18 has got some crazy power in that 15-30hz area like you say!! But I hear ya on the CONS. I bet it really does feel like your WAY up there. I'm at about 7" now with isos on top with MAs and its high. But actually its just about perfect feeling now and my wife even said the other day that it feels more immersive with the Video because it our eyes up at about 1/3 the way up the screen in scope mode, which I think is about perfect. BUT, 3+ more inches would feel way the hell up there for sure. 

Yeah the super jiggle is crazy huh and not sure I'm a fan of it either. 

And no singles and can bottom it out too, even with the 18"!!!??? WTF!! 

Damn!! But I guess it doesn't surprise me even though I had high hopes with the 18" in the BOSS config!! 

So my thoughts so far with all the testing I've done with my little ol 12's. Is that there is just not enough low end down under about 15hz with it on isos (fully isolated, which what is prescribed for BOSS), and when you try to push up the lower end with EQ/LS or whatever and/or really up the gain, bottoming happens pretty easily actually, which I just HATE and cant handle!!! Sounds like it can even happen with the 18" (which sucks), but probably can be pushed a lot harder before you hit that bottom.

The only way I can get the low end TR way the heck up there and NOT bottom on the really heavy duty ULF sound tracks, is by putting the BOSS riser on the floor with NO isos under the riser, therefore making it really not a BOSS (baffle open sub shaker) at all, but a sub woofer riser that is sealed, just like Scott Simonian and his 18's in his. The only problem with this (well, it may or may not be a problem depending on how its integrated with your other subs), is that you most definitely get SPL from it. I ran a REW sweep on mine the other day and it reads just like a sealed sub. Luckily it doesn't cancel and only adds. It adds about 4-5db in the meaty (20-40hz range with it LPF'd at 30hz with 12db/oct slope. 

I can get some pretty damn crazy TR readings from it with only 1 JBL in a sealed box (1 box per seat) or even 2 per seat, but get the SPL with it. If I take off one side of the box, opening it up so its not sealed any more, making it a BOSS, it looses a ton of low end TR , but looses the SPL too (or most of it anyway). 

The TR does feel pretty fantastic when its on the floor (or even floated, besides the lacking low end and the bottoming), better than what I remember from my previous setup with no sub riser in the equation. But I may need to revisit it one more time just to make sure. It seems to be pretty darn good in conjunction with the MAs and BKs, but the VNFs will have to be raised up because they just don't pound me as hard with them being about 7" lower now. I'm missing that and put my MBM in there for while, which helps a ton! I've gotta have something behind me bringing the slam, or it just feels lacking, at least in the MB chest slam area!

So, the BOSS is a no go for me too, at least with it fully isolated, as I just can't get enough low end under 15hz with it and keep bottoming the drivers when trying to do so (and surprisingly my MAs and VNFs aren't as good or combine as good when the BOSS is fully isolated too). Now with it setting on the floor, which makes it a sub riser (not a BOSS), I love the TR from it, at least down to 8-10hz and singles can even be felt pretty good from it. It also seems to combine great with my MAs and BKs and also VNFS. I just have to deal with the SPL and will have to work integrating it with my other subs so its not too much SPL. 

So I've wondered why in the hell I could get so much TR from it setting on the ground with NO isos. It just seems weird kinda like we talked about in our PMs a while back. Well it's because it's a sealed box (or subwoofer now) basically and all the TR can still really be felt by setting on it (just with less X and Y axis). I realized this when I went back and looked at Scott's sealed sub riser the other day, which has NO isos either. Mine is just a smaller leaky version of his with my 12's instead of 18's, but surprisingly still really brings the TR. Just go take a look at one his old VS readings of EOT for his sub riser. That thing brings it all the way down deep. Check it out HERE in his post number 2 of his thread. Keep in mind also that the reading is in g's, not m's. So it's really hitting up round 1e+01, no 1e-01. So, now it makes sense to me and he was able to get those kind of readings with NO BKs or MAs or NO isos. Well, I don't know that it makes sense, but I can get some pretty great TR and reading too (probably not quite as crazy as his, but still good) from a much smaller version with no isos. Crazy but it's true. Makes me wonder what he would think of it if he put the whole riser up on isos. It would still be sealed then (no an open baffle), but just floating/jiggly. I wonder if he would loose any of his low end TR or gain a little? 

Anyway, didn't mean to get too far into that but kind of ties into what you found even with the mega 18" boss down low. I'm looking forward to the rest of your tests. And yep, wont surprise me at all if you end up back with your previous setup with stacked MAs + BKs + VNFs. That thing was insane and didn't set you up on a throne to get it. 

I REALLY appreciate you trying the 18's out and sharing our results with us. Besides the bottoming and lacking super lows compared to our MAs, it really is damn impressive on the VS measurements!!


----------



## Sekosche

*My 11.4.12 &quot;Franken-Atmos&quot; living room.*

That is crazy you’re bottoming an SI 18” out that easy. And having the single chair riser that high does look a bit like a throne for a TR bass king. 

I’m going to dial my 6 BOSS drivers in as low as I can get them without bottoming, but it won’t be until next week until it’s finished. I like how natural they are across their bandwidth and they blend seamlessly with the MA’s. I never had a proper BK setup with soft isos, but when I tried a pair of the Advance, I wasn’t impressed at all with what they provided. Whether the isos make a huge difference there or if a step up to the LFE was needed, I can’t say. But I love what the BOSS brings in its simplicity and lack of unpleasant noises, much like Crowsons in that regard.

If adding 3 more JBL’s is a lost cause to wind up with the same output from 15-30Hz where I don’t really need any more TR, I guess I’ll find out soon enough. With what was previously mentioned, it seems a sealed riser or a lot of MA’s are about the only reasonable way to reach high TR output into the single digits.


----------



## Nalleh

@SBuger: i hear you and agree with everthing you say. I was actually going to mention comparing your no-iso to Scott sub riser, as it is basically the same thing, and that all makes sense.
Yeah, i am kind of bummed on the single digits from the BOSS. Don’t get me wrong, from 15hz up, it is the best it has felt so far, it is amazing and insane, but this comes at the price of the totally bonkers single digits from my optimized stacked MA setup. And the single digits is what we are chasing.

It is kind of like with subs: midbass and SPL is easy, it is the ULF that is hard.

Actually the 2xJBL BOSS was enough from 15hz up, so that is easy. And this was also where the BK’s shine, they had headroom up the whazoo 

That being said, i listened to some music this morning while forming a plan for the day, and DAAAAMN it sounded nice! The SI BOSS has such a weight and heft to the low end, it is awsome. However music, as we now is more up in the wheelhouse where the BOSS would work best 

The BOSS is a extremely potent patent, no doubt about it, and this 18" version is totally insane, but it is simply not for the single digits. 

@Sekosche: yeah, well i manage to bottom out my sono subs too with one channel of NU6K on each SI, so managing it without a box, is no problem 
You going from 3 to 6 JBL’s would probably be a noticable improvement, as i believe SBuger noticed too, and i agree it sound very natural, it’s just that i don’t need more in that aera, it’s down low i need improvement. And i got it from the stack MA’s.
And yes, even though the MA’s improved with the iso’s, it was the BK’s that REALLY loved them, espesially hampered with a front iso only setup. But as i have said before, that was 12lb slugs, vs some grams mms, so not a fair comparison.

And speaking of easy: slapping a couple of MA under it and screwing a couple of BK’s to the chassis is pretty easy in my book too ;(

Here is a VS of each component, somewhat level matched. Actually surprised the NF was so up in there, this is 1x Si18 behind the seat and a 4x JBL box in the middle position behind couch.

Upper pics is MA 1 and 2 layer, and bottom is NF and SI BOSS. They all look very good actually.


----------



## Nalleh

This just in : ENDGAME !!!!











All i can say is: HOLY MOLY!!!.




More later  .......


----------



## Sekosche

Nalleh said:


> This just in : ENDGAME !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> All i can say is: HOLY MOLY!!!.
> 
> 
> 
> More later  .......




Lol, “What’s in the box?!”
~Brad Pitt, Seven


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> This just in : ENDGAME !!!!
> 
> 
> All i can say is: HOLY MOLY!!!.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More later  .......


OH HELL!!!! I have a feeling that my 18's in VNFs are gonna be coming out of their boxes and into a face down position BOSS behind my seats like yours is in now ...LOL Can't wait to hear about this!!! ..cause when you say 'END GAME' ..I believe you cause I know you know's about this stuff hahahahaha 

AWESOME stuff man, I love the way you keep this TR game so exciting!!!!!!! Seriously, I love it, please keep it coming!!! 

EDIT: damn ...that 18 really does just look like a MONSTER of a driver in a BOSS config, especially behind where you can really see it


----------



## Sekosche

Nooo, I need to quit reading your thread. It doesn’t look that different than being under the chair, is it like a cantilevered design with a different effect? I swear I’m done tinkering for a while after the BOSS 2.0, or my Wife 1.0 might murder me.


----------



## Nalleh

Are you guys sure you are ready for this??

Here comes my slow sunday tinkering:



Yes, finally made some awsome progress today. Didn’t like the whole setup i made yesterday, so a last effort needed to be done, before i gave up and went back to my old setup. BOY AM I GLAD I GAVE IT ONE MORE TRY!!

So because of the stupid height needed to have the 18" under the seat, i thought what about cantilever: behind the seat?
As it was under the seat, it was more to the front and didn’t lift my body as i wanted. So mounting it behind the seat would concentrate more movement to my main body, not just the feet. This also ment i could fit in both the MA stack AND my beloved BK’s again. So the BK lift in front, MA’s in the middle and BOSS in the rear, LOL.
And this was again even easier to make than the plattform yesterday, i even used the same parts, LOL.

And i got some more clearance for the SI by mounting the driver from above on the MDF instead of under as i did yesterday. Win-win.
So this is from underside.










Everything setup  1xSI18 BOSS cantilevered, 2x2 stack of MA’s and 2xBK’s. Whoo-hoo.










Easy peasy 










Nestled in between the NF’s. Actually made worse TR from the NF’s, since there is now a bit more distance to seat 










Here is each component, again somewhat level matched. But as i said the NF’s, upper left took a beating compared to yesterday, because there isn’t room for it right behind the seat. Next project 

Look at that beatiful curve on th BK’s !
BOSS doesn’t look as clean here, but no worries 










Here is all summed, and it looks insane! Ruler flat Z curve, and Y is also insanely flat and nice summed too. And extension below 10hz on Z 
The Meg clip again to the right. This is still with all components level matched, and it feels AAAAWWSOME!!










Holy moly this is nuts! The force, precision, nuances, levels and displacement is just of the charts, LOL. I am all giggly !!
And each component adds to the mix: MA’s down low for the wobble, BK’s for the intense force above 12-15hz and the BOSS kind of overlaps them both and adds just a insane ferrosity and just shakes you to the core. Totally positively insanely nuts!!

If you mute one components, something is missing, so the coolest part of it all is how well they work together.

Some small details left to optimize, like placement and number of iso’s, i am now using 6 total under the plattform and 2 more in the front MA setup.

AND THE BEST PART?: total height is 5 inches!! One more than my old one. Totally acceptable 

I still can’t believe the cantilever edition worked so much better than the proper one, LOL.

I CAN’t stop giggling, LOL.

How’s that for a turn around from saturday to sunday ??


Ohh, and i might even get a bit more with the SLAPS experiment 

Anyway i need to work some more on the NF problem, but raising a NF box is a LOT more acceptable than raising the seat, LOL.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ @Nalleh ....LORD OF TR (this is my new nickname for you ok LOL) ...I bow to you!!!!! Wicked as hell bro!!!. WOW ..what a setup to have all components in there and only 5" height!!! YES!!!! Amazing VS graphs too!!!

Thanks for paving the way my friend and doing these experiments, I think I'm gonna follow in your footsteps as best I can with your setup!!!! Not sure I can get two BK under my MLP like you did up front bolted to the main platform (I can do one with the space I have to work with) but may work great bolted to the actual frame of the seating like I used to do (I can get 2 of them in there that way). Also I'll need to go back to MBMs firing into the back of my seat chest level up above the 18" drivers for BOSS cantilever. Will need to make some platforms for those to get them over the top of the 18's.

So when you do this for 2 seats, are you gonna make it all connected with both 18's in BOSS (as well as MAs and BKs) in ONE big platform? I assume so. I'll need to make it ONE platform for 3 seats (instead of 3 separate). 

Yes I'm sure you are super giggly right now, you should be  I am just looking at hearing about it. It's got me stoked to try it on my too!!

Thanks again mate!!!      

EDIT: You've still got a piece of MDF under your seats for the MAs to push up against and distribute the TR better right? Also, your MAs are floated full iso too with iso under 2x6's (or 2x4's) right, to help with the BOSS and BKs full iso?


----------



## Nalleh

@SBuger: Oh, thanks man, you and me are never satisfied it seems, so we drive each other to new heights. You made me try the BK’s and i loved them(which was happily re-affirmed today, they are monsters), and lately you made me try the BOSS. Wasn’t too impressed initially, but kept at it and even got the 18" to improve further. Was disappointed yesterday, but FINALLY found a good solution today, so yeah, i am STOKED!! These are the moments we put in all those hours to experience  Sure there are some duds now and then, but by not giving up, it usually gets sorted 

Yes, this was a one seat test, and now that i have the template, i can look into making one for the whole couch. I think i will keep the Stack MA on my seat only, to get full impact from it, and use single layer in the other seat(mostly just my brother using it, and not as into this as me anyway), but otherwise same for both seats. So yeah, i can make a rather easy "open" plattform, just like the one i made only wider to fit the couch.

IF you try 18" in this cantilever config, and the difference is as big as in my case, my guess is your JBL’s is gone, man  Puny 12"s 

Yes, i too need to make a plattform above the BOSS driver for the NF’s, need to think a bit about that, but that is a less problem than the 9 inch high throne was, LOL.

I am telling you, this upgrade was MASSIVE, and a gamechanger!! I am still kind of wondering how it was possible after all the work i put into the prevoius versions, LOL.

Again while i am typing this, i am listening to music, and it is such a difference, WOW ! Such heft, weight and fullness to the low end. Now i get what Tim was talking about, HAHA.


EDIT: yes on your edit, still mdf under couch, and full iso under MA’s(2x4 laying flat, so just 2 inch height) Helped a lot with the extra rear iso’s at the rear of plattform. Having 6 iso’s also helped on the jiggle plattform i mentioned yesterday. Everything was improved today, LOL.


----------



## SBuger

^^ awesome man! (Yeah we seem to push each other in good ways it seems and great stuff usually comes out of it )

So does that mean you are running the BOSS full range now or at least at your normal LPF of abut 50hz? I remember you saying that the 18" seems to feel better up higher now than the 12" JBLs did.

Yeah my 12's are out the door and the 18's are fixing to take over


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^ awesome man! (Yeah we seem to push each other in good ways it seems and great stuff usually comes out of it )
> 
> So does that mean you are running the BOSS full range now or at least at your normal LPF of abut 50hz? I remember you saying that the 18" seems to feel better up higher now than the 12" JBLs did.
> 
> Yeah my 12's are out the door and the 18's are fixing to take over


Yeah, the BOSS is full range, no extra LPF. AND i don’t need ANY EQ on it either. Running flat and full range, LOL. Insane i tell you 

Yes, with a cantilever setup you should be able to ditch that monster plattform of yours, and get back down on the ground(so to speak).


----------



## SBuger

That's awesome, I'm hoping to be able to run mine that way too. 

Do you think I should go with MDF this time instead of Plywood? Don't know that it really matter I guess.


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> That's awesome, I'm hoping to be able to run mine that way too.
> 
> Do you think I should go with MDF this time instead of Plywood? Don't know that it really matter I guess.


Honestly use what you are comfortable with and have access to 

I have a hard time finding plywood where i live, so i have used MDF, as that is available and cheap nearby. Would be interesting to try plywood though, as Tim says it is stiffer than MDF. I don’t know, as i don’t have acess


----------



## SBuger

Just thinking of how I'm gonna put all this together for my seats. I'm think I'm going to go with stacked MAs too this time around, but mine will only be one stack under each seat since I have 6 MAs with 3 seats. So still 2 per seat, but stacked this time around. 

I'm just trying to figure out how that will work best with a piece of plywood over the top of them for the MAs to push up against and for my seat feet to sit on top of plywood. 

When you get a chance, would you mind snapping a pic of how much higher your stacked MAs stick up past/above your 2x4's and how it looks with your base mdf board that is attached to your seating that the MAs are pushing up against (which is not really even touching the 2x4's then right cause the MAs need room to work, at least in the back where the MAs are?). Sorry, I'm just kind of having a hard to time visualizing this and the best approach for me to get this done. 

Hopefully all that made sense.

EDIT: Ok I think I've got it, with stacked MAs the top of the top MAs must be up about an inch over the 2x4's and then you have isos up front like normal like it's supposed to be and to keep it level right?


----------



## Sekosche

Wow, those graphs are buttery smooth!

So do you think it’s the shorter riser, BK’s back in full force or the cantilever BOSS effect helping out the most from where the last setup left you lacking? My BOSS 2.0 is essentially a half cantilever design, with 3 drivers under the front of the couch and 3 at the very back that are outside the frame, as this was the only way I could fit them all. I wonder if the rocking motion front/back or Y axis would be increased leaving only the rear three drivers on. Something I might play around with!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Just thinking of how I'm gonna put all this together for my seats. I'm think I'm going to go with stacked MAs too this time around, but mine will only be one stack under each seat since I have 6 MAs with 3 seats. So still 2 per seat, but stacked this time around.
> 
> I'm just trying to figure out how that will work best with a piece of plywood over the top of them for the MAs to push up against and for my seat feet to sit on top of plywood.
> 
> When you get a chance, would you mind snapping a pic of how much higher your stacked MAs stick up past/above your 2x4's and how it looks with your base mdf board that is attached to your seating that the MAs are pushing up against (which is not really even touching the 2x4's then right cause the MAs need room to work, at least in the back where the MAs are?). Sorry, I'm just kind of having a hard to time visualizing this and the best approach for me to get this done.
> 
> Hopefully all that made sense.
> 
> EDIT: Ok I think I've got it, with stacked MAs the top of the top MAs must be up about an inch over the 2x4's and then you have isos up front like normal like it's supposed to be and to keep it level right?


Yes, you are correct on all counts.

Here’s where it differs in EU speak.

Our 2x4 isn’t 2x4, it is 48x98mm = 1.89x3.85 inch.

And the MA’s are 1.1 inch each x 2 = 2.2inch + what ever spacer thickness you use. Last i used 3/4 inch board, but this time i used some scrap hardwood floor pieces that are ~0.3 inch thick. So a total of 2.5 inch for a stack. So i have about 0.6 inch clearance between the top of the 2x4 and the bottom of the couch(MDF board).


----------



## Nalleh

Sekosche said:


> Wow, those graphs are buttery smooth!
> 
> So do you think it’s the shorter riser, BK’s back in full force or the cantilever BOSS effect helping out the most from where the last setup left you lacking? My BOSS 2.0 is essentially a half cantilever design, with 3 drivers under the front of the couch and 3 at the very back that are outside the frame, as this was the only way I could fit them all. I wonder if the rocking motion front/back or Y axis would be increased leaving only the rear three drivers on. Something I might play around with!


It’s the BOSS cantilever mounting! Granted the BK adds to it, but somehow the cantilever version worked so much better in my setup, it is uncanny. It may be because when you sit in the seat reclined, your center of gravity is mostly rearword of the couch, and as i said, yesterday it was mounted more to the front under the seat. It moves your main body more.

Logic would dictate that cantilever would be less effective, but clearly not in this case 

That being said, the BK works wonders in that forward position, so it all worked out fine, LOL.

And yes, the rocking motion also increased with the cantilever. It is clearly seen on the Y-axis curves from today, and that was what i hoped for


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> The plattform height !! It is just silly! I don’t think i can live with that, LOL. It feels like i am sitting on a throne, LOL.


CONFIRMED! Nalleh is sitting on the iron throne after tonight's GoT finally.  

I think we need to design a throne now that's a bunch of subs and MA fused together like the Iron Throne. Bring together the kingdoms of far field, NF, VNF, BOSS, BK, and Crowson into one realm. 



Nalleh said:


> Yes, you are correct on all counts.
> 
> Here’s where it differs in EU speak.
> 
> Our 2x4 isn’t 2x4, it is 48x98mm = 1.89x3.85 inch.


FYI, 2x4s aren't 2x4s here either. That's the nominal size. Actual size is 1.5"x3.5". Pretty much all dimensioned lumbar is given in nominal size which is the size when it's first rough sawn before drying and planing. So if anyone is converting Nalleh's EU sizing to US sizing keep that difference in mind.


----------



## Sekosche

Nalleh said:


> And yes, the rocking motion also increased with the cantilever. It is clearly seen on the Y-axis curves from today, and that was what i hoped for



Aaaaaah yeah and awesome, I’m really curious how mine will turn out now! Hopefully I get the best of both worlds with half the BOSS drivers firing under and behind the seating; I’ve also thought the two sets of three might somewhat cancel each other out based on their position and lose the rocking effect that would occur from the cantilever. The Z axis movement should still improve even if the Y doesn’t. Should be done later this week...I think it will rock either way.


----------



## renoreigns

Nalleh said:


> I get a lot of questions about my setup, so i tought i could make a thread explaining it a little more. And maybe some pics too.
> 
> Short version: i use more than one Atmos AVR's to expand beyond the 7.1.4/9.1.2 hardware limit on todays affordable gear.
> 
> Updated Mars 2019: stacked Crowson motion actuators and Buttkickers, post 498.
> 
> *Updated may 2018: new nearfield solution with 12x12" JBL’s behind the couch. Starts at post 281.*
> 
> 
> *UPDATED MARCH 2018*
> 
> Ok, here we go again. Since reading about the new Denon flagship receiver capable of 13.1 and all amps built in, i had to make changes. So i sold the 5200 and 6200 and have now gotten the brand new AVC-X8500H. So no i can either do 9.1.4 or 7.1.6 with JUST the 8500, or as i have it configured for now 7.1.6 from the 8500 and 9.1.2 from the 7200 for a total of 9.1.6. And this is as correct 9.1.6 as you can get in this price range. And i can also do a (nearly) correct DTS:X 9.1.6. Auro is coming in a May update and will be 13.1. So i should be covered either way.
> 
> And if i want(and will test later on) i can still do the 13.1.8 setup i had earlier, but now i just need these two AVR’s. The 8500 for 9.1.4 (FH+RH), and the 7200 setup with 5.1.4+W for special wides and special surround + TF+TR.
> 
> So gear now is:
> 
> Gear.
> Oppo BDP-203 UHD player(regionfree)
> XBOX ONE X
> Canal Digital HD PVR satellite-box
> Apple TV3
> (Darbee Darblet and MARSEILLE MCABLE for 1080P content)
> Denon AVC-X8500H
> Denon AVR-X7200WA
> Yamaha RX-V3067
> 3 X Inuke NU6000DSP
> JVC DLA RS600
> Dreamscreen V2 dynagrey 120" screen
> Samsung UE65JU7005 UHDTV
> Harmony Ultimate.
> Front=Klipsch RF-82 mk1
> Center=Klipsch RC-64 mk2
> Wide= Dynavoice Challenger M65 V3
> Surr= Klipsch RS52
> WideSur1/Sur2=Klipsch RS42
> Surrback= KEF3005SE
> Height speakers= 10x KEF3005SE
> Nearfield mid-bass= Behringer B1200D
> LFE= 2 X Sonosubs with 2 X SI18HT v2 in Dual Opposed config.
> 4x Crowson Shadow8 motion actuators
> MiniDSP 2X4 balanced
> 
> Read more in post 259
> 
> 
> OLDER SETUP:
> 
> 
> Did a quick and dirty diagram of the setup.
> Blue speakers powered by the 7200.
> Red speakers powered by the 6200.
> Yellow speakers powered by the 5200.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will try to have the first post as updated about the setup as possible, and then take the details as we go.
> 
> Edit: updated Feb -17:
> 
> My HT is in the right half of my living room, and the room dimensions are:
> 
> 5.1x4.1x2.4 meter
> 
> 16.5Wx13.5Dx7.8H feet
> 
> 
> *EDIT sep17:
> 
> Or about 1800 cubic feet *(+ the other half).
> 
> *Gear.*
> Panasonic DMP-UB900 UHD player
> HD FURY Integral
> Oppo BDP-103 BD player
> Darbee Darblet
> Canal Digital HD PVR satellite-box
> Apple TV3
> PS3 (fat)
> XBOX360
> Denon AVR-X7200WA
> Denon AVR-X6200W
> Denon AVR-X5200W
> Yamaha RX-V3067
> Inuke NU6000DSP
> JVC DLA X500R
> Dreamscreen V2 dynagrey 120" screen
> Samsung UE65JU7005 UHDTV
> 
> Front=Klipsch RF-82 mk1
> Wide= Dynavoice Challenger M65 V3
> Center=Klipsch RC-64 mk2
> Surr= Klipsch RS52
> WideSur1/Sur2=Klipsch RS42
> Surrback= KEF3005SE
> Height speakers= 10x KEF3005SE
> Nearfield mid-bass= Behringer B1200D
> LFE= SVS PB12-Plus/2
> ULF= PSA S3000i +4x Crowson Shadow8 motion actuators
> MiniDSP 2X4 balanced
> 
> All controlled by a Logitech Harmony Ultimate with the hub+4 extenders.
> 
> So my earlier setup was a Denon 7200/5200 combo, to get 7.1.4 + Wides + 8 channels of height speakers, for a 9.1.8 setup, explained further down on page(behing the spoiler), but i recently got a 6200 to gain HDMI 2.0 and DTS:X on the second AVR. Then i discovered "Special Wides" descrided in post 67 in this thread. Since i now had 3 Atmos AVR's, this gave me the opportunity to gain both 2 set of wides, AND keep my 8 channels of heights, for a grand total of 13.1.8 in native Atmos and 9.1.8 on DTS:X.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In daily TV use, i have just the 7200 playing DSU in a 7.1.4 setup, but it has all 14 speakers connected, for a 7.1.4 Atmos/DTS:X or 10.1 Auro 3D setup.
> 
> So in native Atmos, setup is as follows:
> 7200 switched to 9.1.2 for fronts @ 25 degrees, "Pure Wides" @ 50 degrees, "Pure Surrounds @ 85 degrees and Surround backs @150 degrees. Playing only 9.1.0(note 1)(note5).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6200 setup as 5.1.4+Wides(note2) for Wides/Sur1 @ 70 degrees, Sur2/Rears @110 degrees and Top Front+ Top Rear. Playing Wides, Sur2, and Tops(note4).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5200 setup as 5.1.4 for Front Height and Rear Height. Playing 0.0.4
> (note 1)(note 2)(note3).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So basically the 7200 plays 9.1.0, while the 5200 plays 0.0.4(heights).
> And 6200 plays 5.0.4(Wide/Sur1+Sur2/Rear+Tops).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see in the little channel indicators in front display, the 7200(to the left) plays SB and WIDES, the 6200(bottom right) plays wides but no SB's and the 5200 (top right) plays no wides and no SB's.
> As before, they are linked together via HDMI ZONE2 daisy-chained to the next AVR.
> 
> I only need on/off and main volume changes on the 6200/5200, so one original remote(and Harmony ultimate) handles that very well.
> 
> Note 1: both the 7200 and 5200 front and rear heights pre-out goes to the main and zone2 outputs of the Yama, so i just use the remote to switch the heights currently beeing used between the 7200 and 5200. So when the 7200 is in 9.1.2 mode, i let the 5200 power the heights.
> 
> Note 2: both the 6200 and 5200 wides pre-out goes to zone3 on the Yama, so i can choose wich one powers the Wide/sur1 speakers. This way i can use Neo:X wides from the 5200 in DSU(wich do not use wides).
> 
> Note 3: in Auro 3D, the 7200 powers the full 10.1 possible. But i can copy the 5200 surrounds(in Auro mode) to the surround back speakers(silent in Auro 10.1) for Auro "12.1" This way i get more "rear fill" than with just the 7200 surrounds @85 degrees. This is done with a dual source speaker switch. I can also power the Surround Heights with the 5200 if i change amp assign to FH+SH, for Auro "14.1".
> 
> Note 4: i have a "Center Height" speaker above the screen. This is connected to the center output of the 6200, and works as a "dialog lift", and also helps pannings between the front heights.
> 
> Note 5: the 7200 powers a VOG(sub2 pre-out) used in Auro 3D. In other formats, i can matrix a VOG using PL2 in the Yama extracted from the rear heights.
> 
> 
> After all this was connected, all 3 AVR's got a full Pro calibration. This took a while...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got a third !?! Kef3005SE 5.1 speaker kit for this upgrade. I switched out the surround backs from Klipsch to Kef, and the rear heights from white to black Kef's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And got rid of the bookshelfs used as Surround Heights for white Kef's.
> See the Kef sub on top of the Bluray rack? I now have bass-managment on the rear heights
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Older setup behind spoiler, no longer used. Too complicated
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 7200 Audyssed with 7.1.4 FH+RH+wides+VOG. 14 speakers.
> 5200 Audyssed with 7.1.4 TF+TR+wides. 13 speakers.
> 
> *In native Atmos*, my 7200 is playing 7.1.4, no SB+FW.
> 
> My 5200 is playing TF+TR.
> However: since the 7200 has deactivated SB's in this case, and they then are downmixed into the surrounds, I switch the surrounds and surround-backs over to the 5200, via my old AVR(Yama 3067 set up as a multisource(all three zones) active speaker switch).
> 
> So the 5200 also plays surrounds and SB's.
> 
> ="TRUE" 9.1.8
> 
> *When playing native DTS:X* (wich is limited to 7.1.4 anyway) from the 7200, i can play wides from the 5200 in Neo:X mode(matrixed from fronts and surrounds in both cases anyway).
> 
> *And then when playing native Auro 3D*, the 7200 plays 10.1, and if the track is 13.1, the 5200 can fill in with surround backs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Setup. Ok, so a little more in detail how it all is connected.*
> 
> The two AVR's are simply connected with a HDMI cable from the 7200 zone2 HDMI OUT, to AV1 input on the 5200. This output is a copy of the input, untouched, unprocessed, full sound and picture.
> 
> From the 7200 the speakers are:
> 
> Front LR= 7200.
> 
> Center=7200.
> 
> Surrounds= goes trough a dual source-dual output speaker switch.
> Input A is from the 7200 surround speakers
> Input B is from the 5200 surround speakers
> Output 1 goes to surround speakers 1 at 85 degrees
> Output 2 goes to surround speakers 2 at 110 degrees
> So i can choose wich surround should play, even both sets from on AVR. Or one from each. Like when i deactivate the 7200 SB's to gain the wides, i can let the 5200 play surround1 and SB's, and then let the 7200 play the surround2.
> 
> Surround back= Both 7200 and 5200 surround back pre-outs goes to Yama AVR zone2 input audio1 and audio2. So i can choose wich plays the SB's. I also have a input from 5200 surrounds here, so i can copy the surrounds to surround back, eg in Auro.
> 
> Front wides= goes trough a second dual source-dual output speaker switch.
> Input A is from the 7200 front wide speakers.
> Input B is from the 5200 front wide speakers.
> So either the 7200 or the 5200 can power the wides.
> 
> Front height= 7200.
> 
> Rear height= 7200 pre-out goes to Yama AVR main zone input AV1
> I can choose stereo(2speakers) or PL2 matrixing to the center channel, VOG(3speakers).
> Rear height is also connected via a Y-connector to the Yama multi ch front input.
> 
> Top surround(Auro 3D)= 7200 sub2 pre-out goes to Yama multi ch input, center channel.
> 
> So by switching the Yama from AV1 input(Atmos/DTS:X) to multi ch input (Auro 3D) i get correct signal to rear height and top surround).
> 
> From the 5200 the speakers are:
> 
> Front LR= connected to 7200 multi ch inputs, fronts. When calibrating or playing from 5200, the 7200 is switched to multi ch.
> 
> Center= 5200 to a center height.
> 
> Surrounds= see above dual source speaker switch.
> 
> Surround back= see above Yama zone2.
> 
> Front wides= see above second dual source speaker switch.
> 
> Top fronts= 5200.
> 
> Top rears= 5200 pre-out goes to Yama AVR Zone 3.
> 
> Surround height(Auro 3D)= 5200 pre-out is also connected via a Y-connector to Yama AVR main zone multi ch input, surround channels.
> 
> So on the Yama, if i turn of zone3(top rear) and switch to multi ch, the 5200 height2 signal is directed to the surround heights(Auro 3D).
> 
> 
> 
> I have a lot of flexibility with this setup, but it is not advisable to leave the remote with grandma
> 
> Some pics of the recently redone living room.


Dude, that is an ingenious setup. I couldn't imagine even attempting to do something like that. Kudos to you bro, you have the best of three worlds. You get to experience all three codecs without compromising. Would your setup also be ready for Imax enhanced if you chose to go that route?


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## Nalleh

^^^^ Thanks man 

Well, the UHD player and AVR is IMAX ready, but neither TV or projector is, so i guess no on the picture side, but yes on the sound side


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## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> CONFIRMED! Nalleh is sitting on the iron throne after tonight's GoT finally.
> 
> I think we need to design a throne now that's a bunch of subs and MA fused together like the Iron Throne. Bring together the kingdoms of far field, NF, VNF, BOSS, BK, and Crowson into one realm.
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, 2x4s aren't 2x4s here either. That's the nominal size. Actual size is 1.5"x3.5". Pretty much all dimensioned lumbar is given in nominal size which is the size when it's first rough sawn before drying and planing. So if anyone is converting Nalleh's EU sizing to US sizing keep that difference in mind.


LOL, thanks man, that made me laugh 
As of yesterday i actually de-throned by my own will, and was more happy as a result, LOL.

And thanks for the info on the lumbar dimensions. I wasn’t sure, but just wanted to tell what i had to deal with, but the point is nevertheless to always measure and make sure the dimensions are what you think they are 



Sekosche said:


> Aaaaaah yeah and awesome, I’m really curious how mine will turn out now! Hopefully I get the best of both worlds with half the BOSS drivers firing under and behind the seating; I’ve also thought the two sets of three might somewhat cancel each other out based on their position and lose the rocking effect that would occur from the cantilever. The Z axis movement should still improve even if the Y doesn’t. Should be done later this week...I think it will rock either way.


Yes tha will be interesting to hear the result 
@SBuger: BTW in the 1x18" vs 4x12" debacle: since the 18" works so gangbusters in a centilevered config, the 12" might do the same! Case in point: i could try to replace the 18" BOSS with 4 xJBL’s in the same place behind the seat. This would require much less heigth and would make placing the NF’s much easier.
So before you cannibalize your 18" NF boxes, you might want to test your 6x JBL in a cantilever first.

The genious part of this cantilever part is it leaves room the other systems, like MA’s and BK’s. And better room for NF’s. I would only need to remove the 18" MDF insert and put in a 4x12" insert instead to test it, and i will. Don’t even need to remove the seat 
@aron7awol: This cantilever BOSS could be your way in using your now useless UM18 farfields  What to you think?


----------



## SBuger

Good idea, yeah I may try that as well and interested in your thoughts on the 18 vs 12's in cantilevered position as well. Would love to know if the power diff from the driver size feels significant in this position too, making the 18's that much more worth it.

I've got the platform all worked out I think for the 18's in cantilevered position, but can try the 12's in there as well before I rip the 18" drivers out of my cabs first. Also I want to try raising my 18" VNFs up higher to be where they used to be up on my back to see what I think first before I go to destroying stuff LOL, to go along with my 'sub riser' 12" JBLs before I change everything out, cause I've really been loving it this way too, just need more slam from the VNFs (they are too low now that I'm 7" higher). The drivers in VNFs really do need to be very close to you to make much difference at all IMO, for that PV feel. I am kind of afraid I'll miss my VNFs PV feel right behind me, even if the 18's in the cantilevered BOSS kill for TR. But maybe my MBM 1200D (and two more for the other seats) right behind me would give me that slam form 45hz and up for the chest cave feel.

I wanted to ask you, what kind of negative delay are you using on your BOSS to combine well with the others? Still the same as the MAs and BKs at about 19-20ms? 
@aron7awol - do it man like Nalleh suggested, use those 18's like he just did in the cantilevered BOSS ..one behind each chair. If nothing else, I think you'll be blown away by the feel and power of it in the 15hz and over region, since you've never experienced the BK LFE's like me and Nalleh. You've got nothing to loose since you've already got those 18's setting there doing nothing. Just a bit of time is all if it doesn't work out


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## Nalleh

^^^ Yeah if using multiple 12" in cantilever BOSS would equal 1x 18", that would be perfect, as that would make it possible to use the 18’s as NF’s. The little i tested, they seem to add more TR than my 4xJBL in NF, as the earlier VS showed. And yes they need to be close, as evidenced by the much less TR from my last VS where the NF were farther away, probably by a ft or so. And as mentioned 12" in cantilever would not require the NF’s to be so tall mounted. Win-win.

Yeah, i probably did a 100 VS measurements on the configs saturday and sunday, trying to find each drop of combined TR. With 3 components just in the TR divison + NF’s and FF’s, there is a lot to test. I tried every possible combo of phase and delay on each component and to see how they added, and yes i ended up with all on the same delay as the MA’s.

HOWEVER: what clearly gave the best curves, highest numbers AND felt best was with the BOSS AND BK OUT !! of phase with the MA’s !

BTW, in order to put the NF’s back in place with the 18" BOSS as i have it now, i need a 14 inch height plattform to clear the driver, LOL. It is still room for them behind the couch, but they will protrude above the seat back. So if the 12" could be used instead for BOSS duty, the plattform would only need to be ~ half that, like 6-7 inch height.


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## SBuger

^^^ Thanks for the info! 

Hmmm, interesting on your BOSS and BK out of phase and the MAs in phase since your driver is facing down and BKs upright like normal. I run my BOSS and BKs out of phase with MAs too (while MAs are normal phase), BUT my drivers are facing up for the BOSS and the BKs are mounted upside down under the riser, so each of them on their own need to be phase inverted, and can easily be felt to combine best with MAs and VNFs even without VS measurements. 

BUT, that is with 'sub riser' not BOSS. With BOSS (fully floated with isos), the BOSS still combines best with the VNFs with BOSS inverted phase, BUT MAs cancel (at least under 15-20hz and below) with the BOSS. Weird!

Seems to be a bit tricky getting it all right (or at least max combining from them all at all frequencies with BOSS). 

Yeah I'm kinda torn with the whole VNF subs thing and the 18's in the BOSS cantilevered or even the 12's in the BOSS positioned the same way. If I used the 18's in the BOSS, then my 18" VNFs are gone (unless I buy more 18's and amps which I don't want to do). That leaves the 1200d MBM for VNF duty and possibly 2 more for the other two seats that may just really satisfy the heck out of me for slam etc, especially with the MBM positioned perfectly/ideally height wise right behind my upper back at chest level. So that could work out wonderful and may be ALL I need. Even with the 18's VNF setting on the floor too low now (7" too low), if I set the MBM on top of the 18" VNF, it still puts it up just a little too high and has to be back a little too far or it hits the tops of my seats backs when reclined (which is how I always watch movies in the reclined mode). 

Ideally, that MBM needs to be abut 7" lower to really get close in behind my upper back/chest area and not hit the tops of the seats. Not having angled cabs make it tough, especially on the 18" when you go to raising them much, IF you want them close to your upper back that is and not have to be moved back away from the chair to not hit the tops of the seatbacks when reclined. 

IKD man, I need angled cabs when I go to raising stuff (but don't want to build them lol), IF I want full range VNFs behind me and the 18" in the BOSS cantilevered. MBMs not in angled cabs should do just fine and can get them close to upper back with the 18's in the BOSS. Or maybe even 18" VNFs with 12's in the BOSS cantilevered. Damn, I really do want those 18's in the BOSS though LOL I'm sure they feel quite a bit more powerful in the 20-10hz range and maybe not as overbearing in the 25hz and over range like you say.

sigh ...decisions, decisions 

Oh, I also meant to ask you, how much power are you giving your 18" in the BOSS? I'm giving each of my DS4-18's all a single channel of the 6k inuke will give, which is actually on about 1200 watts I think was said around here (not 3000 like the specs say lol). The DS4-18's are rated nearly identical to the UM18-22 (recommended about a 1000-1100 watts max IIRC) and I run them the same way. I'll be using the DS4-18s in the BOSS if I decide to go that way, but may need to set the limiter since they will be free air and not bottom too easy. Not sure the power requirements on your SI 18's, but are you having to set a limiter on them in the inuke?


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## DesertDog

What you're getting out of the cantilever is great. Unfortunately it also go me thinking.  

I had been thinking of building an array of 12s to put VNF right up against the back of my couch. Now this has me thinking, maybe extend my riser back to add another row of subs in the cantilever position. I could then build a single row of 12s for the top edge of the couch that are on on legs rising up from the extension. It would give about 6 12s firing right at chest height VNF plus the extra cantilevered drivers. I could probably do 4 more 12s in the cantilever or possibly 4 15s or 2 18s. Hmm....


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## trhought

Loving the BOSS sled Nalleh! Reminds me of the rocket sleds from long ago and all the pioneering experiments those sleds allowed. Your sled is the perfect TR test vehicle! Pretty awesome how flexible it can be and how it can lend itself to adding other TR building blocks such as VNF on top of the cantilevered BOSS. Hat's off to you man and your ingenuity!

After modeling the SI18HT MK1 in a BOSS application and comparing to the baseline JBL's, the technicals are as follows: The MK1 has 1.5x the excursion (22.5mm vs. 15mm) and 2.0x the Mms (357g vs. 179g). That a shaker potential of 3 times the JBL. So, on paper using the mass and excursion comparison only, it would take about 3 JBL's to equal 1 MK1.

But, when looking at the frequency response below (red is MK1 and blue is JBL), it gets a bit more interesting.

The JBL is peaky around 22-24 Hz while the MK1 starts to peak around 10 Hz and below. This is because of the loose suspension of the MK1 and resulting low FS. The other cool thing is it only takes about 150 watts of power for the MK1 to reach Xmax in the BOSS open baffle. 

The MK1 has some serious potential for belting out the single digits more so than the JBL's. And, it can also hang with the JBL's in the upper frequencies when looking at the excursion curves for both in the 20Hz and higher frequencies. A pretty darn good BOSS shaker across the board!

Having this technical understanding now and sketching your BOSS sled configuration, if it were me, I'd experiment with a setup that includes the MK1 BOSS and BK only and take out the stacked MA's. What this would accomplish is removing the isolators right below the MA's and allowing the cantilevered MK1 BOSS platform to deliver the singles with some DSP help. Right now, the cantilevered BOSS effect may be compromised by the isolators right below the MA's.....below is a cantilever sketch to help illustrate.

By removing the MA's, the isolators right below them can also be removed. I think the span between the front BOSS isolators and the back BOSS isolators will still be acceptable with the stiffer framing and lumber. I'm guessing that distance is about 36 inches or so from your pictures.

By removing the MA's and mid-span isolators, the cantilevered BOSS effect may further improve. However, what is gained from the BOSS may be lost with the removal of the MA's so it may be a wash in the end. Or, you may find you just can't live without the stacked MA's even if they are taking way from some of the cantilevered BOSS effect. 

One other observation after sketching your setup....if your chair has enough room underneath, you could experiment with moving the BK's closer to the back of the chair to fine tune how those add to the overall experience. The closer they are to the back legs of your chair (mid-span of the platform), the more effect they will likely have. So, the BK's could be fine tuned (placement and power) along with the MK1 BOSS to optimize the overall experience.

The good news is, if you don't like the above changes as much as your current setup, you can always add the MA's and extra mid-span isos back to the platform very easily!

Anyway, pretty awesome Nalleh! I'm sure your BOSS sled is going to help others explore the upper boundaries of what's possible in the world of TR (especially after adding VNF's and possibly SLAPS). A platform design that's very flexible for TR junkies and experimenters out there! I also love the function-over-form look of it.....especially with that big 18" upside down right behind the chair....very industrial looking and tough!

Now we just need a catchy name for your invention....something like the TRS (Tactile Response Sled) or (Tactile Response Simulator).....I don't know, pretty awesome though!


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## trhought

Nalleh said:


> ^^^ *Yeah if using multiple 12" in cantilever BOSS would equal 1x 18", that would be perfect, as that would make it possible to use the 18’s as NF’s. *The little i tested, they seem to add more TR than my 4xJBL in NF, as the earlier VS showed. And yes they need to be close, as evidenced by the much less TR from my last VS where the NF were farther away, probably by a ft or so. And as mentioned 12" in cantilever would not require the NF’s to be so tall mounted. Win-win.
> 
> Yeah, i probably did a 100 VS measurements on the configs saturday and sunday, trying to find each drop of combined TR. With 3 components just in the TR divison + NF’s and FF’s, there is a lot to test. I tried every possible combo of phase and delay on each component and to see how they added, and yes i ended up with all on the same delay as the MA’s.
> 
> HOWEVER: what clearly gave the best curves, highest numbers AND felt best was with the BOSS AND BK OUT !! of phase with the MA’s !
> 
> BTW, in order to put the NF’s back in place with the 18" BOSS as i have it now, i need a 14 inch height plattform to clear the driver, LOL. It is still room for them behind the couch, but they will protrude above the seat back. So if the 12" could be used instead for BOSS duty, the plattform would only need to be ~ half that, like 6-7 inch height.


For the bold above, on paper it would take about 3 JBL's to equal 1 MK1.....so I could see an array of 3 JBL's stacked on top of one another kinda like pancakes serving the BOSS duty....that stack of 3 JBL's would be about 20 inches tall and allow the MK1 to serve VNF duting on top of the JBL pancake....just an idea.


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## trhought

DesertDog said:


> What you're getting out of the cantilever is great. Unfortunately it also go me thinking.
> 
> I had been thinking of building an array of 12s to put VNF right up against the back of my couch. Now this has me thinking, maybe extend my riser back to add another row of subs in the cantilever position. I could then build a single row of 12s for the top edge of the couch that are on on legs rising up from the extension. It would give about 6 12s firing right at chest height VNF plus the extra cantilevered drivers. *I could probably do 4 more 12s in the cantilever or possibly 4 15s or 2 18s. Hmm....*


Or, do 8 more JBL's on top of each other in pancake fashion. 4 cantilevered 12" BOSS drivers on the extended shelf, then another 4 stacked on top of those all behind your BOSS-sac.  That would provide a 13" high shelf for the VNF's and would give you the same BOSS shaker potential as 2.7 18's for your cantilevered BOSS.


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## Nalleh

@SBuger: yeah, i am pretty sure it is all connected correct, so it is strange indeed, but i don’t care: that is why we test and tune. It is not always theory and practice is the same. I think it can be because of the MA is kind of in the middle of the BK and BOSS.

Hey don’t you have like 5x 18" in nearfield now?? You could use 2 of those for cantilever BOSS and use the remaining 3 between those for VNF.

And if you use your MBM and need to elevate them, and don’t have a angled box, why not kill two birds with one stone and build a plattform that is angled so that the MBM sit on the plattform at an angle upwards?

So far i am using one channel of NU6K (non-DSP)on it. It has bottomed out, but not now, took a while to find the levels. I do have the compressor activated on the 10x10 and am still tuning it a bit, but think i am close now.

@DesertDog: thanks 

That would probably work great and is along the lines of what i am planning with my NF’s. Go for it 


@trhought: thanks for stopping by, awsome post, lots of info, thanks 
Yes, the sled work like a charm and is very easy to modify and flexible. Each component can be moved or remove and changed out very easy, and was part of the plan to get everything tested.

Regarding your MMS figure, that is for the V2, the Mk1 has 416grams, and altough it has 22.5mm Xmax, it also has a Xmech of 43mm(one-way), so i think it is safe to say it can handle a bit more 

Actually "disabling" the MA’s is rather easy, just take out the upper front iso’s and mute the MA’s in the mindsp, leaving the MA part inert, and remove the mid span iso’s, done in 8 second  And yes this and a lot of other this like placement and number of iso’s and also moving the components is thing i will test going forward. Heck, i can even test the BK in the cantilever position 

The 2x4’s is 55 inch long, so by moving the rear iso forward i can probably get to under 40inch span between the front and rear iso’s.

There is so much i want to test now, my head is spinning, but ATM i am out of materials, LOL, and i have a full work week, so i am not sure how much i can get done, but no worries, it is already totally nuts, so i am a very happy camper 

Oh, and i love your drawings, they are awsome.


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## Nalleh

trhought said:


> For the bold above, on paper it would take about 3 JBL's to equal 1 MK1.....so I could see an array of 3 JBL's stacked on top of one another kinda like pancakes serving the BOSS duty....that stack of 3 JBL's would be about 20 inches tall and allow the MK1 to serve VNF duting on top of the JBL pancake....just an idea.


Yeah, completely doable, but that would make the NF a minimum of 12" from your seat back. I would rather have the JBL cantilever BOSS flat on the plattform, and the NF on top close to the seat back. Imagine the front MDF plate of my JBL boxes with 4 JBL tight together, now take that mdf plate and put it where the 18" is on the plattform instead. This would make it 6-7 inch high, and much better to place a NF on top. Since the 12" are much shallower than the 18", i can move them further forward too. Win-win.

But without NF’s: great idea


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## Nalleh

trhought said:


> Or, do 8 more JBL's on top of each other in pancake fashion. 4 cantilevered 12" BOSS drivers on the extended shelf, then another 4 stacked on top of those all behind your BOSS-sac.  That would provide a 13" high shelf for the VNF's and would give you the same BOSS shaker potential as 2.7 18's for your cantilevered BOSS.


If you mount them on top of each other, you could countersinc them into each other, saving height, magnet to cone. As long as you account for max driver movement, you could save a couple of inches total height.


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## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> If you mount them on top of each other, you could countersinc them into each other, saving height, magnet to cone. As long as you account for max driver movement, you could save a couple of inches total height.


If you do this is there any danger of the magnet from the bottom one affecting the top one's movement? It's a slow day at work and I've been sitting here thinking through design option if I when with multiple 12s over a larger driver. That was one concern I had when that idea crossed my mind. I've been thinking through that and the best way to make an extension to my existing riser. Still working on the latter.


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## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> If you do this is there any danger of the magnet from the bottom one affecting the top one's movement? It's a slow day at work and I've been sitting here thinking through design option if I when with multiple 12s over a larger driver. That was one concern I had when that idea crossed my mind. I've been thinking through that and the best way to make an extension to my existing riser. Still working on the latter.


Not at all. Haven’t you seen how tight they pack sub drivers in car stereo setup? You can pretty much do what ever you want


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## Nalleh

Some more pics.

Here is how it looks under the seat, with the BK’s in front and if you zoom in a bit, you can see the Crowsons in the back. Actually very roomy with this patent. I plan to test a "hush box" for the BK’s to silence them a bit 










And here can the lower and upper iso’s be seen. Also note the metal "guides" to keep the seat on the boss plattform(same i used on the MA spacer board).










And a bit of testing with the NF box on top of the 18" driver. You can see the top of the center NF box behind it, and see the difference in height, LOL.
Reclined.










Upright.










From the front, reclined.










Upright. Almost hidden 











And here is from the side. And there is plenty of room for a downfiring SLAPS in the bottom of the box 










But with the JBL’s instead it would be half this height.

Oh, and @SBuger, i tested the Venom street chase scene of yours: Yikes that scene is awsome!! It is like a roller coaster, LOL, totally bananas, man. This is a demo scene if there ever was one


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## trhought

^^^^ Very nice Nalleh! Pictures are worth a thousand words. 

Now I see what you're saying about the height of your VNF's relative to your reclined position. I'd say the angle is going to be a challenge also. Have you considered what @LastButNotLeast did with his JBL driver mounted directly to his chair back (his BOSS Back). If you have room in your chair backs, that may be an elegant solution to make your VNF's even closer to your chest. Additionally, the BOSS Back will always be in the correct position because it will move with your chair back regardless of the reclined position.

With the addition of the BOSS back, then the VNF box could be made a smaller (less tall) NF box while still providing passive power for the SLAPS in the bottom of the box for additional BOSS shaker potential. Pretty crazy all the options you have now. 

One other idea, if you don't have enough already , regarding your BK's and their noises. By chance, does that noise go down with less power. If so, maybe moving them towards your back legs will allow the power to be reduced and help with the noise while still maintaining the same TR....not sure 

Also, I was thinking a bit more about your MA experiment and muting them. With the internal springs of the MA's I wonder if that will absorb some of the TR and also cause the platform to not feel natural with the internal springs....especially with the double stack which means a double layer of springs free to move when muted. Not sure but you've probably already considered that......curious if that turns out to be the case.

Looks awesome man....can't wait to see what other experiments and discoveries are on the horizon!


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> @SBuger: yeah, i am pretty sure it is all connected correct, so it is strange indeed, but i don’t care: that is why we test and tune. It is not always theory and practice is the same. I think it can be because of the MA is kind of in the middle of the BK and BOSS.
> 
> Hey don’t you have like 5x 18" in nearfield now?? You could use 2 of those for cantilever BOSS and use the remaining 3 between those for VNF.
> 
> And if you use your MBM and need to elevate them, and don’t have a angled box, why not kill two birds with one stone and build a plattform that is angled so that the MBM sit on the plattform at an angle upwards?
> 
> So far i am using one channel of NU6K (non-DSP)on it. It has bottomed out, but not now, took a while to find the levels. I do have the compressor activated on the 10x10 and am still tuning it a bit, but think i am close now.


Yeah, if it all tests out good, that's what counts, no matter the reason!

Yep, I've got 5 18's surrounding me in the back of the room and side walls (so yes NF), BUT the one directly behind the seat super close (whichever seat is being set in) is the ONLY one I consider VNF that can actually really be felt (TR and SLAM). The others somewhat help too (with some shake I guess, the ones directly behind the other two outer seats), but they don't give that slam in the chest and gut with the drivers not being super close directly behind (although they do make the sound fuller and bring more pressure like FF subs). So in other words, the other NFs help some I guess with the TR and SLAM (that can be felt internally), but nothing like the true VNF directly behind with driver super close with the PV and force it that it creates. 

AND I need those two that are on the side walls left there to help with my FR in this very tough room. IF I use all 3 of the 18's (that are now currently in VNF form behind each seat) connected in one BOSS platform cantilevered (which I kind of want to do as I think 3 of them at 561g of mass a piece with 27mm Xmax (Xmech: 50mm) and Fs: 18.7 hz on the DS4-18's , I think it could bring on a serious amount of TR craziness, at least down to 10hz and maybe even into the singles. Hell, might not even need the BKs a tall with this, IDK. 

So that's what I meant by that leaves me with no 18's for VNF duty above the 18's in the BOSS if I use 3 out of the 5 NFs (with one True VNF for each seat out of those 5). I could keep the VNF 18's by using the 12's behind in the BOSS cantilever like you were waying, but damn, I REALLY want to use those 18's hahahahaha  I just don't see how even 6 of the JBLs (if I used all of them behind in the BOSS) could begin to compete with 3 18" monsters in all ways, plus what you mentioned about what you really liked abut the 18's (ie can run them full range, feel fuller, weightier, more powerful etc). But this leaves me with no VNF 18' directly behind the seats. It could be so badass though that it might not matter at all and the MBMs put in behind me could just kill!!  Or yes, I could just use two of the 18's in the BOSS, leaving one 18 for VNF behind just the middle MLP seat (maybe put the 18's in the BOSS on the outsides of the VNF that could be directly behind the MLP). But I think an 18" mounted cantilever in the BOSS directly behind the MLP (not just the two outer seats area) would give the best effect for the middle MLP seat (I want the other two seats great too, but this is the most important one). All that make any sense to you?

IDK, still got some thinking to do I guess. In the meantime while I think about it all, I think I'm gonna move out my monster sized 'sub riser with all the 12's in it, and go back to the way I had it setup before with VNFs, MAs and BKs LFE's and use all the new HIFI isos with it all one more time. Then go from there. 

But, the 3 18's in the cantilevered BOSS plus the MBM as VNF on top of the 18's has been ruling my thoughts lately. I think if nothing else, I will HAVE to try it!!  And also yep, make a platform to angle the MBMs up just right into my upper back like you said. But I don't know if I'll want them actually mounted to the BOSS platform itself or separate, as I don't know if they'll give me too much TR vibrations in the 45hz and over frequencies where they will be doing their ting with them connected to the actual BOSS platform or not. No way in hell I could run the 12" JBL in the BOSS full range, as its just WAY too distracting. Maybe in MBM format in a cab wont be so overbearing though, IDK. As usual, lots to think about and try. 




Nalleh said:


> Some more pics
> 
> -----
> 
> Oh, and @SBuger, i tested the Venom street chase scene of yours: Yikes that scene is awesome!! It is like a roller coaster, LOL, totally bananas, man. This is a demo scene if there ever was one


Anyway, awesome pics of your setup, thanks for showing those!!! Also very cool about being able to mount your VNFs cabs above your 18's for final result (and maybe even with the SLAPs in there). GAWD dude, that and all combined ought to just flat out give you enough TR power to almost do yourself in completely if unleashed in full power!!!  Yes you will truly be LORD OF TR then and none of us will be worthy hahahahahahahaha    

Cool man on the Venom street chase scene!!! Yeah I LOVE it and cant seem to get enough of it!! LOL It can feel pretty damn hardcore and just loads of fun!!! When I've got my stuff tuned just right, this one can feel pretty scary with the amount of intensity it brings. Is my current favorite I think for a lot of reasons and is one hell of a great domo piece IMO.

Oh yeah almost forgot to mention. I think you'll love a hush box for the BKs and should work wonders, as I currently have mine mounted underneath, inside the 'sub riser' and they are totally silenced this way. So your solution to silence them should work great too!!


----------



## SBuger

One thing that just occurred to me that I could do with my empty cabs if I pull the 18's from them for BOSS duty, is I could put PA460's in them that are supposed to be amazing for midbass. That is what that one Bear dude on AVS forums did with his in one of his cabinets at one point and couldn't say enough good about what it did for the feel of midbass and sound quality too, as its a pro driver low excursion made for this. Might need another amp to drive them all but just another idea so those 3 cabs don't go to waste. I've always wanted to try the PA460 with all the talk about it a while back when Dom's MBM thread was running wild, so could be my opportunity I guess.

I think my 1200d will just kill for chest slam though positioned in the right way behind my seats, just like it did in the MLP in my previous setup that didn't recline. That damn thing was so violent feeling that it would make my chest ache for several hours sometimes after demo sessions (I've talked about this before on other threads, you might have seen it at one point). I know that sounds absurd, but it could do it and was the most potent mid bass slam and chest cavity pressure I've ever experienced. Not even loud concerts have been able to do this to me, although concert midbass punch can be heavenly and really pound the chest.


----------



## Nalleh

trhought said:


> ^^^^ Very nice Nalleh! Pictures are worth a thousand words.
> 
> Now I see what you're saying about the height of your VNF's relative to your reclined position. I'd say the angle is going to be a challenge also. Have you considered what @LastButNotLeast did with his JBL driver mounted directly to his chair back (his BOSS Back). If you have room in your chair backs, that may be an elegant solution to make your VNF's even closer to your chest. Additionally, the BOSS Back will always be in the correct position because it will move with your chair back regardless of the reclined position.
> 
> With the addition of the BOSS back, then the VNF box could be made a smaller (less tall) NF box while still providing passive power for the SLAPS in the bottom of the box for additional BOSS shaker potential. Pretty crazy all the options you have now.
> 
> One other idea, if you don't have enough already , regarding your BK's and their noises. By chance, does that noise go down with less power. If so, maybe moving them towards your back legs will allow the power to be reduced and help with the noise while still maintaining the same TR....not sure
> 
> Also, I was thinking a bit more about your MA experiment and muting them. With the internal springs of the MA's I wonder if that will absorb some of the TR and also cause the platform to not feel natural with the internal springs....especially with the double stack which means a double layer of springs free to move when muted. Not sure but you've probably already considered that......curious if that turns out to be the case.
> 
> Looks awesome man....can't wait to see what other experiments and discoveries are on the horizon!


The recliner seat back is a "click-on" patent with just two locks, one on each side, and they have a wood backplate, so it wouldn’t work to well with all that weight onto them.

Turn down the BK’s ? What blasphemy is this? Just kidding, like i said i will do a lot of testing going forward, so no worries. It wasn’t as bad as i remember it either, so it’s all good 

IF i need to block out the MA’s completely, i can just put wood blocks between the 2x4’s and MDF the couch is on, easy peasy


----------



## Nalleh

@SBuger:

Hey, i understand your concerns, and they are all legit, but there is two points here:
1. You need to look at the result of the total package and maybe not so concerned about each component.
2. You got A LOT of tools in you toolbag:
JBL. Can be used for BOSS, normal or cantilever, OR as NF’s! I think these 6 across the width of the couch on a shelf above the 18" BOSS would be much better than the MBM’s for NF duty.
DS-4. Could be used for cantilever BOSS or NF’s. Let’s face it, they would kill it, either way 
UM-18. Same as DS-4’s, and would probably be near as good.

And then there is MA’s and BK’s. You see where i am going with this? You just need to find the right combo with what you already have.


See drawing for what i was thinking about for the cantilever BOSS and 18" NF.
I see in your pics that the 3 x NF’s are side by side and maybe not much room between them, but it might be doable if you could do some measuring to find out. If you build one " sled" plattform for all three seats, i think two cantilever 18" would suffice 

Forget about the PA460’s: you already have(free) 6x JBL’s. They would kill it as VNF’s and they go way deeper than both the PA460 and the mbm, and they have punch and slam up the wasoo 
Just build some 1cf pr driver boxes, like i did, make a shelf above the 18" cantilever BOSS, and NF problem is solved.

So for max TR: 3x 18" cantilever BOSS and 6xJBL VNF, keep the UM18’s as is.
Max PR/slam: 6x JBL cantilever BOSS, keep the 18" VNF’s and UM18’s

Or you could use the JBL’s instead of the UM18’s as "somewhat" NF’s, leaving the UM18 available for cantilever BOSS duty.

What i tell you: right combo with what you already have 


Oh, and thanks about the hushbox, nice 


Suggesstion:











EDIT: holy cow, both the DS-4 and the UM18 are monster for BOSS duty!! Go for it


----------



## DesertDog

SBuger said:


> One thing that just occurred to me that I could do with my empty cabs if I pull the 18's from them for BOSS duty, is I could put PA460's in them that are supposed to be amazing for midbass. That is what that one Bear dude on AVS forums did with his in one of his cabinets at one point and couldn't say enough good about what it did for the feel of midbass and sound quality too, as its a pro driver low excursion made for this. Might need another amp to drive them all but just another idea so those 3 cabs don't go to waste. I've always wanted to try the PA460 with all the talk about it a while back when Dom's MBM thread was running wild, so could be my opportunity I guess.


Going with a PA460 is an interesting idea. If (lets be realistic, when) I build the expansion for my BOSS with a VNF row It might an idea for it. I'm not sure if I'd have enough room though, especially if I pancake 2 rows of 12 for the BOSS. How do you think think they'd compare to the JBLs for chest slam? Probably 2 (maybe 3) of them vs 6 (8) JBLs. Would the 15" PA380 be worth considering too for it? I could probably squeeze 4 in. I need to start mocking it up in SketchUp to figure out exactly how many I could fit. 



Nalleh said:


> The recliner seak back is a "click-on" patent with just two locks, one on each side, and they have a wood backplate, so it wouldn’t work to well with all that weight onto them.
> 
> Turn down the BK’s ? What blasphemy is this? Just kidding, like i said i will do a lot of testing going forward, so no worries. It wasn’t as bad as i remember it either, so it’s all good
> 
> IF i need to block out the MA’s completely, i can just put wood blocks between the 2x4’s and MDF the couch is on, easy peasy


Do you think BKs are worth the investment with this setup if you didn't already have them? I've been trying to decide if they're worth the cost at some point. I have plenty of room to add them onto my riser but I'm not sure if the price/performance ratio is worth it.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Going with a PA460 is an interesting idea. If (lets be realistic, when) I build the expansion for my BOSS with a VNF row It might an idea for it. I'm not sure if I'd have enough room though, especially if I pancake 2 rows of 12 for the BOSS. How do you think think they'd compare to the JBLs for chest slam? Probably 2 (maybe 3) of them vs 6 (8) JBLs. Would the 15" PA380 be worth considering too for it? I could probably squeeze 4 in. I need to start mocking it up in SketchUp to figure out exactly how many I could fit.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think BKs are worth the investment with this setup if you didn't already have them? I've been trying to decide if they're worth the cost at some point. I have plenty of room to add them onto my riser but I'm not sure if the price/performance ratio is worth it.



1xUM18 = 2.7x PA460= 4x JBL. So as i just said to Sbuger, just go with the JBL’s, as they er much cheaper(at the $29 price anyway) 
+ the 12" JBL’s are much easier to place than the bigger 15" and 18" options.

Well, the BK’s are monsters and i love them. But as you say they are somewhat expensive.
But in my setup, the BK’s perform much better than the 2x JBL’s in BOSS config.

But later on i will be able to compare 2x BK’s in cantilever vs 2/4x JBL, so that will be interesting. The more i think about it, now with my "TR sled" with the awsome iso’s, the BK’s in cantilever may be incredible 

MMS much?? What about 6lb !! EDIT: it is actually 7.5lb for 2xBK’s


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> @SBuger:
> 
> Hey, i understand your concerns, and they are all legit, but there is two points here:
> 1. You need to look at the result of the total package and maybe not so concerned about each component.
> 2. You got A LOT of tools in you toolbag:
> JBL. Can be used for BOSS, normal or cantilever, OR as NF’s! I think these 6 across the width of the couch on a shelf above the 18" BOSS would be much better than the MBM’s for NF duty.
> DS-4. Could be used for cantilever BOSS or NF’s. Let’s face it, they would kill it, either way
> UM-18. Same as DS-4’s, and would probably be near as good.
> 
> And then there is MA’s and BK’s. You see where i am going with this? You just need to fins the right combo with what you already have.
> 
> 
> See drawing for what i was thinking about for the cantilever BOSS and 18" NF.
> I see in your pics that the 3 x NF’s are side by side and maybe not much room between them, but it might be doable if you could do some measuring to find out. If you build one " sled" plattform for all three seats, i think two cantilever 18" would suffice
> 
> Forget about the PA460’s: you already have(free) 6x JBL’s. They would kill it as VNF’s and they go way deeper than both the PA460 and the mbm, and they have punch and slam up the wasoo
> Just build some 1cf pr driver boxes, like i did, make a shelf above the 18" cantilever BOSS, and NF problem is solved.
> 
> So for max TR: 3x 18" cantilever BOSS and 6xJBL VNF, keep the UM18’s as is.
> Max PR/slam: 6x JBL cantilever BOSS, keep the 18" VNF’s and UM18’s
> 
> Or you could use the JBL’s instead of the UM18’s as "somewhat" NF’s, leaving the UM18 available for cantilever BOSS duty.
> 
> What i tell you: right combo with what you already have
> 
> 
> Oh, and thanks about the hushbox, nice
> 
> 
> Suggesstion:



See, just another reason to come in this awesome thread of yours to get some great advice!! Lots of options with what I already have!!

Yeah, I don't have much room between my 18's VNF for each seat, and making room for the VNFs behind the outer seats with 2 BOSS 18's in there would make them stick out too far in this small room (hard to get past anyway with a little goat trail to the back of the room as is. So I think I'll go with the 3 DS4-18s in the BOSS and then do what you said with the JBL 12's in VNF boxes (angled boxes) that will go on a shelf above the 18" cantilevered BOSS. I'll use the one 1200d behind MLP until I can get that done. I suck at building though and will need some dimensions and angles for the cabs (probably 2 JBL's per cab x 3 ...like yours but only two per cab). Can you help me model them or whatever when the time comes so I have a plan of attack and/or cut plan if I give you my seat dimensions and height I have to work with etc?. haha I told you I suck at this part and the main reason I've just gone with flatpacks up to this point LOL




> EDIT: holy cow, both the DS-4 and the UM18 are monster for BOSS duty!! Go for it


Yeah dude, as far as going for it with the DS4's in the BOSS, it's gonna happen for sure. Yep, I think they should be monsters too (either the UM18 or DS4 ..they are pretty similar) like you say after looking at the specs and what Tim just model'd in his thread for me. Similar to your 18" so should bring it pretty hard I would think, hopefully down low too!

I tried my previous setup today after living with the BOSS and/or BOSS as a 'sub riser' for a while now, and I missed the BOSS feel dearly. So this is just what I needed to give me a little more push to get it done. As if what you just built here with yours wasn't enough already!!!  LOL


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> 1xUM18 = 2.7x PA460= 4x JBL. So as i just said to Sbuger, just go woth the JBL’s, as they er much cheaper
> + the 12" JBL’s are much easier to place than the bigger 15" and 18" options.


Thanks, I saw your post to Sbuger after posting. Makes sense. The JBLs are much easier to work with and will be a lot easier to design the expansion for too. Playing with the numbers I think I might be able to put 8 JBLs across the top for NF duty. The cantilever part of the BOSS could then have 4-9 more if stacked. Is 17 JBLs in a boss plus another 8 NF overkill??? 



Nalleh said:


> Well, the BK’s are monsters and i love them. But as you say they are somewhat expensive.
> But in my setup, the BK’s perform much better the 2x JBL’s in BOSS config.
> 
> But later on i will be able to compare 2x BK’s in cantilever vs 2/4x JBL, so that will be interesting. The more i think about it, now with my "TR sled" with the awsome iso’s, the BK’s in cantilever may be incredible
> 
> MMS much?? What about 6lb !!


So wait to see how your tests turn out while I'm saving up for them. Got it!


----------



## SBuger

DesertDog said:


> Going with a PA460 is an interesting idea. If (lets be realistic, when) I build the expansion for my BOSS with a VNF row It might an idea for it. I'm not sure if I'd have enough room though, especially if I pancake 2 rows of 12 for the BOSS. How do you think think they'd compare to the JBLs for chest slam? Probably 2 (maybe 3) of them vs 6 (8) JBLs. Would the 15" PA380 be worth considering too for it? I could probably squeeze 4 in. I need to start mocking it up in SketchUp to figure out exactly how many I could fit.


Not sure on the PA460's. I've only heard nothing but great things about the mid bass abilities over around here. How they would compare to the JBLs or PA380, I don't know. I think the PA460 is only about a 100 a driver, so more than the JBLs but probably pretty bad ass. Nalleh makes a great point though, the JBLs wold be easier to place, and would bring it down low too! I think that's the route I'm gonna go after he schooled me hahahaha


----------



## DesertDog

SBuger said:


> Not sure on the PA460's. I've only heard nothing but great things about the mid bass abilities over around here. How they would compare to the JBLs or PA380, I don't know. I think the PA460 is only about a 100 a driver, so more than the JBLs but probably pretty bad ass. Nalleh makes a great point though, the JBLs wold be easier to place, and would bring it down low too! I think that's the route I'm gonna go after he schooled me hahahaha


Yup, that's why he sits on the throne. I'm going to go that route too when I do it. 

I wish Nick still made his lower end subs. It would love to be able to have a few of them. Maybe I should just go nuts and use 8 of his HST-11 MKIIs instead of the JBLs for the VNF. that's only like 20x the price.


----------



## Nalleh

@DesertDog : nothing like overkill in this forum! I thought you had learnt that by now  If you could get the JBL’s for the cheap price, i say go for it 

@SBuger: Understood. I believe you have the 3x18" VNF laying down(wider) behind you, right? If you raise them up(taller) that would gain a couple inches between them, and you could build your plattform for the 18" VNF’s to go between the magnets of the 18" BOSS drivers, like the drawing below. My magnets are 7 inch diameter, so that would be the distance between the VNF’s. That way you wouldn’t need the VNF’s plattform so tall. Just a suggestion 

Anyway, i think you should be able to get a killer kombo together mith the right mix of gear you already have, and if i am not counting wrong, you wouldn’t need more amps either 

Sure, i’ll help with what i can with the boxes, but i am not a pro in that regard either, LOL.

And about the LORD OF TR: yeah, i think you got that title covered yourself, as with 3x18" BOSS you would be leading the race 

Since when did this get a competition?? LOL.


----------



## Nalleh

Oh, and @SBuger, after reading back your glowing review of the mbm, it might work out fine, for midbass and punch anyway. When i used mine, i had to turn it down because it was easily localizable, but that was before i discovered the extra LPF on NF’s.

What i DO know is it was COMPLETELY DEAD below 30hz, ported PA sub as it was, while the JBL’s just keep’on trucking all the way down, and like i have said before, i have probably EQ’ed them down 30dB above 50hz, so they have stupid capacity(with multiples) for midbass.

I forget, did you have just the one mbm?

Oh, and if you really don’t want to build boxes, there are surprisingly cheap boxes on ebay  Cheaper than buying more mbm’s or Pa460’s anyway.


----------



## Sekosche

*My 11.4.12 &quot;Franken-Atmos&quot; living room.*

Thanks for the ideas @Nalleh, the little shelf over the BOSS to move the VNF subs up is brilliant, and just what I needed for my setup. I’m moving my seating forward another 4” on the BOSS 2.0 riser and also made the platform 4” deeper than the last one at 40”x86”, and I was wondering the best way to get the VNF subs up closer with the rear 3 JBLs now right below them. This will also move them up more to chest level, because they’re too low now with the added 4-5” of the stacked risers.

I have scrap wood to throw together a long ~90” long shelf that will work perfectly for both sub boxes to hover above the BOSS, and luckily the VNF boxes are only 14” deep. Great idea to work around all these things! I’ll need to add some stopper brackets too, because the boxes do walk around a little after spirited sessions on my hard floors with no feet on the subs.

Also, the idea of stacked or pancake driver builds on a cantilever seems easier than full sheet builds due to working with smaller/lighter pieces and will work with most people’s seating, but that would make VNF sub placement almost impossible...and I likes me some nearfield slam! Finishing up BOSS 2.0 hopefully tomorrow.


----------



## Nalleh

@Sekosche: you’re welcome 
Yes, moving the NF’s a bit up can benefit in several area, more chest punch being one of them, however in my case it might give more head punch, LOL. We’ll see 

Awsome if you already made the new plattform big enough, you are half way there 

And hey, if your NF’s move around a bit, maybe including them ON the plattform will give some added TR. In other words bolt/screw the shelf to the plattform. Kind of like i discovered when i tested the SLAPS box: it had WAY more movement of the box than the other sealed ones, so that was when i thought of mounting the SLAPS downfiring in the box and mount it on the plattform. If it works, it is FREE TR 

Yeah, i agree this sled of mine was a breeze to build and much easier than my previous plattforms, and so easy to place the components on it, so just some 2x4 lengths of lumbar, and you’re up and running .
And also much easier to combine with MA’s, BK’s and what not, i haven’t used a drop of glue either, only screws, and it turned out incredible sturdy with this ladder design, arguably stiffer than a plywood sheet.
It adds a smidge more height to the BOSS, but then again it is very easy to add a step onto it by lengthening the 2x4 a ft or so in front of the couch  Endless options....


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> @
> 
> [MENTION=7521312]SBuger: Understood. I believe you have the 3x18" VNF laying down(wider) behind you, right? If you raise them up(taller) that would gain a couple inches between them, and you could build your plattform for the 18" VNF’s to go between the magnets of the 18" BOSS drivers, like the drawing below. My magnets are 7 inch diameter, so that would be the distance between the VNF’s. That way you wouldn’t need the VNF’s plattform so tall. Just a suggestion
> 
> Anyway, i think you should be able to get a killer kombo together mith the right mix of gear you already have, and if i am not counting wrong, you wouldn’t need more amps either
> 
> Sure, i’ll help with what i can with the boxes, but i am not a pro in that regard either, LOL.
> 
> And about the LORD OF TR: yeah, i think you got that title covered yourself, as with 3x18" BOSS you would be leading the race
> 
> Since when did this get a competition?? LOL.


Awesome stuff man on the suggestions and I really appreciate it!! You are really good at coming up with ways to do things and shows on everything you put together with your setup. A fantastic skill to have for sure, especially in this hobby!! So yep, that may just work pretty darn good by standing the VNF cabs taller and making more room for the 18's in the BOSS and to go between the magnets with the VNF cabs. Only problem is, I'll need more 18's to do this with if I use 2-3 of them in the BOSS (which I can buy more I guess, eventually at least). But also, without the cabs being angled (I could build those too I guess) that would put the cabs up close to the top of my seat backs, making the cabs be pushed back farther to keep from hitting the seats, and therefor making the back of the cabs pretty close to my back wall as they are pretty deep. I don't have a ton of space to work with and will make it real tough to get in and out in the back. Could do it but would be super tight. Also this makes the driver farther away from my mid back. BUT, could work or possibly be tweaked to worked with I'm sure. Where there is a will there is usually a way. I just have to figure out what I want. 

LORD OF TR ....LOL, yeah we both probably have (me soon to have) more damn TR than necessary, but we do seem to LOVE it !! ) What I do think one can probably never have too much of is ULF TR though. If we ever get to that point though, we can always turn it down easy enough though right?! Now over 20hz TR doest seem to be near as much of a problem getting enough of. 

Competition/Race ... LMAO like a sport or something huh by seeing just how far we can push all this stuff etc. Then the other is like, yeah ok well check this out hahahahaha. It's all good, keeps us up on our game and our systems in tip top TR shape  So much great stuff and learning has came of it already, which is just so cool, and fun too!  The wife thinks I've lost my mind though with it all, and I probably have LOL



Nalleh said:


> Oh, and @SBuger, after reading back your glowing review of the mbm, it might work out fine, for midbass and punch anyway. When i used mine, i had to turn it down because it was easily localizable, but that was before i discovered the extra LPF on NF’s.
> 
> What i DO know is it was COMPLETELY DEAD below 30hz, ported PA sub as it was, while the JBL’s just keep’on trucking all the way down, and like i have said before, i have probably EQ’ed them down 30dB above 50hz, so they have stupid capacity(with multiples) for midbass.
> 
> I forget, did you have just the one mbm?
> 
> Oh, and if you really don’t want to build boxes, there are surprisingly cheap boxes on ebay  Cheaper than buying more mbm’s or Pa460’s anyway.


Yeah I just have the one MBM 1200d, so if I wanted to use those for all seats, I'd have to buy two more which I don't want to do, but would if I just thought I had to have them. If can be integrated right and able to find that perfect placement and tuned just right (maybe some luck is required here somewhat too, to feel right and to actually deliver that violent chest slam feel I was talking about ..I haven't been able to get it to do that in this new room yet with these seats like I was able to in my downstairs setup in that middle seat on the couch). It's just too high now in these seats setting on top of the 18's and not close enough to my upper back I think mainly.

But yeah, it doesn't do much at all below about 45hz though. It really is a true MBM for sure. But I think that is partially what made it so damn potent, is having that port tune in that prime midbass chest slam frequency area. 

Yeah I remember you saying on the JBLs behind you, that you had to EQ them down a ton in the MB area, so they def have more than enough power there. Cool if you can get TR and feel from them all the way into the ULF region too!! I probably need to go that route like you did with the JBLs VNF. But maybe I wouldn't miss the extra that the VNF give under about 45hz or so and mainly need it for the midbass chest punch, IDK.

Also cool, thanks for the heads up about maybe buying some cheap boxes on ebay for the JBLs. Maybe I'll look into that, but may have to take you up on some help with the boxes when I get ready if I want to do it right, thanks for that!! Well, you seem to know enough on the modeling and box building, pro or not. Way more than me!!


----------



## Nalleh

@SBuger: sure, it may nok work, but just wanted to put some ideas out there  I am positive that you now can get a incredible combo put together, and i can’t wait to hear how this turns out, man  Really excited to hear how your DS-4 will perform in a cantilever BOSS, espesially if you go for 3 of them, LOL. That would be more than triple my MMS, LOL, so that should be off the hook ! And also how it will compare to the regular BOSS you have now.

IDK, but i have now tried the normal BOSS with 2x JBL pr seat, a 18" normal BOSS and now the 18" cantilever BOSS, and the two 18" versions was directly comparable with the same building blocks, pretty much the only real difference was the driver placement, from a performance point of view, and my clear opinion is that the cantilever is not a compromise at all, it is better than normal BOSS! By a mile! So your experiment will show if this is just a "one off" or if it holds true 

And also just to reiterate regarding using a shelf for NF’s to clear the cantilever BOSS: mounting the shelf(and thereby the NF’s) ON the plattform COULD add some free TR. It may be on a different axis with NF driver pointing forward, not downwards, but Y axis TR can add to the experience, for sure 
And if shelf, instead of using angled NF boxes, the shelf itself can be angled, and you can use normal square boxes and still get placement optimized close to seatback 


I am not sure i will get to it until next week, but i hope to compare the following on the rear of my TR SLED starting with the current 18":

2 and 4xJBL (4 would be 716 grams of mms)
2x BK(7.5lb of mms)
1x18" VNF box on the plattform, forward and downward facing driver.
1x 2xJBL VNF box with SLAPS facing forward(current box i made earlier) on the plattform(400grams of MMS and could add more than 1000grams to test)
Same as above with SLAPS facing down.

With the results of these tests i can move forward on a final ultimate config 

Oh, and one last point: IF you go for the 2x18" cantilever BOSS with 3x18" VNF’s as my earlier suggestion, your MLP would benefit from BOTH cantilever 18"s(one to your left and one to your right) AND 1x18" VNF box. And you could use the remaining 6x JBL’s where your UM18 are today. No need for more drivers


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## SBuger

^^^ 
Thanks man, yea I'm really excited to see what I think of the DS4-18's in the BOSS cantilevered will do too. I think they have some SERIOUS potential mounted the way you did yours with multiples. Especially since you say you like them so much better mounted behind you than right underneath you. Crazy that it could make that much of a difference in feel! That is just awesome though because then we don't have to be sitting up on a thrown way up in the air to use the 18's. If it weren't for you mounting the 18" that way, I don't know that I would have ever thought to try it like that with mine, and just couldn't quite make myself put it under my seat and deal with that much height. So mounted this way, it's win win like you said earlier ...not too much height to deal with, plus get to actually use the 18's in the BOSS. I'm VERY thankful for you trying this out and letting us in on it, otherwise I may have never thought to try my 18's like this. So thanks a million to you AND Tim for the BOSS and different ways to mount!! I do seem to just love the BOSS feel, if I could just get more in the 10-15hz area (maybe below 10hz too) out of it I think I'd just be as happy as could be with it and would make it that much better. I'm hoping the 3 18's can and will do this for me  

As far as the diff you feel with the 18" from mounted under the seat vs behind farther, kinda doesn't surprise me I guess when I really think about it. I actually preferred the feel of my rear 12" JBLs in my platform compared to the front JBLs, and even combined (rear and front). Yes there was more TR headroom, and the same intensity could be achieved with the levels turned up more on the front or rear set of 3's only, but the rears just felt better by themselves, probably for at least one of the same reasons you like the 18" behind your seat better vs under. It seems to be felt more in the body. 

So anyway, thanks so much for the config ideas, I appreciate them all!! When you really start thinking about it, there are actually quite a few ways it could all be configured that could be fantastic. For instance, by using the 12" JBLs for the side walls to help with my FR, weight and fullness, in place of where the UM18's are placed now like you say, I could actually use the 2 UM18's in the BOSS cantilevered like you illustrated up above with the magnets in-between the VNFs (so they could all be closer). I could probably even leave them laying on their side rather than tall (either would work) and even on the ground (or on the platform) to have the drivers hit me closer in the mid back area. But then with the VNFs lower like this, put the 18's in the BOSS up above the VNF's (20" tall I think on their side) with driver cones for the cantilevered BOSS facing UP with the magnets going down in-between the VNFs. Not sure if the drivers would work as good by not being closer to the base, but may work great too with the drivers up higher. Just another idea. 

When you start thinking about it, at lot of configs can probably be made to work great if one is willing to try it and put the effort and time in to get it built and setup. So I think your absolutely right, and incredible combo can be put together with what I currently have to work with. Then just the time is needed to mess around with it all to find what works best, or at least give the results that satisfies in whatever config. They may all feel more similar than not. 

One thing that does kind of concern me though is having the VNFs (full range or MBMs) mounted to the BOSS platform, is giving too much feel over about 25-30hz and above. This may or may not be the case though, and only trying it out will tell. And good points on it maybe bringing more Y axis into the mix with drivers facing forward on the platform in their cabs. 

I think what I'm actually kind of hoping for here though, and what I may try first, is that with 3 DS4-18s mounted cantilevered behind the seats, it will give me ALL the TR I want and need, at least in the 10hz and above area, and heck, maybe even the singles. That might be wishful thinking in the singles, but ya never know, could be enough and feel fantastic in the super low digits. But if not, that's why we have the MAs to add to it!! Then either the 1200d MBMs or JBL's (full range with 2 per cab) mounted behind the seats up above the 18's in the BOSS to bring the mid bass chest punch. Either connected to the BOSS platform or no connected and angled or whatever is needed. This would be pretty easy I think and may just give me everything I desire and would need to go no further  We'll see how it all goes in the upcoming future! EDIT: Also when looking everything over again for the plan of attack, if I want my BKs in the mix, I'd probably just be better off mounting them on the back with the BOSS 18's like your going to test, with the BKs right behind each arm rest on the platform (kind of like I did right before the BOSS entered the picture). That way I could use all 4 or them. I'm just so space limited under the front of my seats where you mounted yours, even though they may feel great there with the 18's being in the back. I could do it, but could only use 3 (1 per seat, which is probably good enough). I think in the rear with the 18's may be better though. 

I'm really looking forward to hearing about your results with your list of things you want to test out!! Nice list too BTW!! I'm sure what you come up with will be even more incredible than the way you have it now 

As far as me getting all mine going and tested too, I hear ya. I've got a couple of days here with small windows of opportunity to start on it all, but then have some big family plans (with some travel too) over the holiday this weekend, plus it's my 8 year old daughters last day of school today. So, that will really cut down on my time to spend on it all for a while, but will try to do what I can when I can, cause I'm super anxious to get it all going! I think I'm at least going to go pick up my lumber today 

Thanks for all the inspiration my great friend Nalleh!!!!


----------



## Sekosche

Nalleh said:


> And if shelf, instead of using angled NF boxes, the shelf itself can be angled, and you can use normal square boxes and still get placement optimized close to seatback



Oh great idea! And easier than building an angled box which I didn’t do from the start. I’ll have to see what clearances I have over the rear BOSS JBL’s and what height I have to work with for building a shelf for the VNF. I’d like to keep them as low and hidden behind the seating as possible too. Will have to see which type of shelf will work best when I’m all done.

Think both my VNF cabs weigh around 90-100lbs each so a couple 2”x4” spanning 90” or so with plywood on top should hold them just fine.


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## Nalleh

@SBuger: no worries mate, just glad to help, often when you stand in by yourself you get tunnelvision and don’t see all the options, and a fresh point of view can help see the light  I often use 90% of the time in a project envisioning things and mulling over the alternatives available, and then often just need 10% of the time to execute the idea.
I just thought you were quick to dismiss what gear you already have and went straight for the "need to buy more stuff" option, LOL.

It’s all good, and you’ll get there, my friend 

Since the cantilever was already mentioned in the BOSS thread i had that in the back of my mind, but i figured it would be a compromized setup being all the way behind the couch, but as luck would have it, it was quite the contrary. Luckily, as it was my last effort in the BOSS game before giving it up, and going back to my old setup 

And yes, i think it has to do with the center of force gets more centered around your main body from your waist up, at least in our recliner seats, instead of being more centered on your lower body, exactly as you experienced with you front vs rear JBL experiment. This is also why the MA’s are recommended mounted under your rear couch feets, and not the front ones.

You have noted the same thing about your BK’s and where to mount them(more to the rear), and that is one thing that puzzles me, because in my case i LOVE the BK’s under the front of my couch, even in a front iso setup only they ROCK in that position. But it may be because they augment the MA’s in the rear so good, and while they work well seperate, they add beautifull together for a summed improved result.

So, i may get better result from trying the BK’s in cantilever, but that also might make the front lacking(my lower body). But as you said, trying your BK’s in the rear could be a viable option

HAHA, yes mounting the BOSS driver OVER the VNF’s could be a great spacesaving idea, and that would be a great sight to turn around and see all hose 18" cones right behind you, LOL. Awsome idea , But it may be a bit less optimal as you said it will end up far from the base. It may change both the TR direction/axis and intensity level, but it is hard to tell. Then again with all these ideas it could turn out great. Remember the most important thing here is the summed total response of the system, and if it will make the VNF’s more optimized for example, it may turn out to give a better result 

I will just mention this as i did it myself, and it made adjustments/ changes so much easier: if you could, do try to make a " one seat sled" like i did! It was a real hassle earlier to remove the whole couch to tinker with it, while now i can just flick up my one seat and basically do whatever i want, the rest of the couch is left alone and works just fine.
And i just have a 2 seater, you have 3 seats. And espesially since there is some options to try out. Once you find the perfect combo, you can make the final version for all three seats. That is now my plan of attack 

My sled couldn’t be easier to make, just a couple of 2x4 lengths, and some MDF/plywood inserts, and your’e up and running.

Yeas, the added TR if you mount the VNF’s on the plattform COULD be a problem in the upper frequencies, and it need to be testd for sure, but somehow i don’t think that will be a problem. If you look at/put your hand on the sub box while playing sine waves, IF you have movement/TR form the box, it is the most at low frequencies, which is what we want to tap into. At higher frequencies (above say 30-40hz) the box is pretty inert.
But if it gets a problem, it could maybe be damped with iso’s under the VNF box. That way the ULF TR may still survive to your seat. Just a thought 

Yeah, i managed to get a supply run yesterday too, so i think i have the materials i need now, so that’s nice. But i hear you on the time managment issue, LOL. I am a shift worker, so somethimes i have several days off, other times work evenings and nights, so getting some time to tinker with "my baby" isn’t always as easy.

Patience, i guess 

@Sekosche: that sound like it should work great, and getting it all packed up close to your back would improve the experience a good bit, me thinks. Awsome, i am following you thread with great interest


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## Nalleh

A couple of pics of the height of the 18" vs if i use the 12"s.

Downfiring.










Upfiring. Either would basically be half the heigth as the 18", at ~7" vs ~14".










And here is the clearence between the 18" basket and the seat back.










Really hoping that 4xJBL is close to the 1x18" in performance, as that would make placing VNF’s much easier.


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## Sekosche

*My 11.4.12 &quot;Franken-Atmos&quot; living room.*

I’ll need a 9” shelf to clear the rear drivers for the VNF. Will have to see how it lands on the seating before building one, may have to get creative with angles because when reclined the chairs move back quite a bit so I don’t have a lot of room for clearance, but I did gain 4” by moving the seating to the edge of this larger platform. Not sure how WAF will land with them suspended off the ground...guess we’ll find out. 

Edit: I guess I could maybe just suspend them 6” or so and move the platform back to right where the driver magnets hit the VNF cabs and that’ll make up for the 4” distance lost.


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## Nalleh

^^ Looking great  Yeah, depending on how much the seats recline back, using a smaller shelf up to the magnets could be the best option


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## Nalleh

Long one 

More VS testing.

Tried with and without the "extra" iso’s on the MA layer, shown in earlier pics. These are strictly not needed for the MA’s as they will utilize the iso’s under the plattform, just as the BK’s and BOSS do. Good news, all measurements shows better values WITHOUT the upper iso’s. So they are gone 

So, MA with 2 layer to left, 1 layer on right. Curves look similar, only higher numbers.










Boss.










BK.










Removed the 18" boss, and tested some VNF options with VS.
First of all, here is the difference in TR with the JBL box in the middle position behind the 2 seat couch(to the right of measured seat), or NF (left pic), and right behind seat (right pic), or VNF.
Again, curves are similar, but higher number for VNF.











Here is the 3 different VNF options, from left to right: 4xJBL sealed, 2xJBL +PR, and SI18 sealed. Look at the improved Y-axis on the PR version!! Right in the meat band at 15-30hz!










All these were done with NF box ON THE PLATTFORM!

So i tried to unload the NF box from the plattform, and this was the result.
A lot of TR below 30hz is lost! Seems smart to have the NF’s on the plattform 










Here is MA+JBL PR in left pic and Ma+SI18 to right. Look at how the PR extends the Y-axis from ~25hz to below 20hz 











And here is all TR together, MA+BK+SI VNF (boss removed) with different settings.
To the left MA and BK are on sub1(FF sub channel) and same phase.
Middle is BK inverted phase.
Right is BK on sub2(NF sub channel) in phase.

All curves look pretty ok, but watching content they feel different.










So i settled on the left curve, but i always check some demo scenes after i am done to listen how it sounds, and i found some new clips from The Meg, this is when the helicopter lands on the rig at sea. Timestamp and setup in title.

And setups are same as pic above. Look and the massive difference in numbers in the middle pic!! Only change from left one is BK are inverted! This one is massively more impressive in feel than the "more correct" left setting.

BK’s on sub2 looks very similar to left pic.










Here is the clip right after the above, and here the table is kind of turned a bit.










So ATM i have no BOSS, but with the setup today it feels pretty darn good, with a lot of shake and wooble, and very punchy too.

These test i could do without building somthing, but next project will be the downfiring PR(will it convert that massive Y-axis spike to Z-axis?), 12" BOSS and BK cantilever.

And then decide final config, LOL.

Crazy times....


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## BP1Fanatic

Keep up the excellent work!


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## SBuger

Awesome testing as always Nalleh!! 

So what isos are you doing away with on the top platform? The ones on the front of your seats (cause those are the only isos you had on top right, with the MAs in the back of seating?) OR the ones directly under the platform underneath the MAs (middle position)? Have you tried taking those iso under the midway position out yet so that you only have isos underneath the platform on the front and back and not in the middle under the MAs? May make it more 'floaty', which I'm not sure if you want more or less of, maybe less after your comments a while back. Also, the MAs might not perform quite as well without isos under the bottom of platform about where the MAs are located above them on top of the platform. Might or might not effect the BOSS, without the isos under the middle position, IDK.


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## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Awesome testing as always Nalleh!!
> 
> So what isos are you doing away with on the top platform? The ones on the front of your seats (cause those are the only isos you had on top right, with the MAs in the back of seating?) OR the ones directly under the platform underneath the MAs (middle position)? Have you tried taking those iso under the midway position out yet so that you only have isos underneath the platform on the front and back and not in the middle under the MAs? May make it more 'floaty', which I'm not sure if you want more or less of, maybe less after your comments a while back. Also, the MAs might not perform quite as well without isos under the bottom of platform about where the MAs are located above them on top of the platform. Might or might not effect the BOSS, without the isos under the middle position, IDK.



The iso’s i was referring to here is the upper ones in front on the "MA layer", not the bottom "BOSS layer". So the bottom BOSS layer is a normal one woth full iso’s(6 of them) and BK’s and BOSS driver solidly attached to the BOSS plattform. On top of that is the MA layer which have MA’s in the rear and iso’s in the front(as a normal MA setup has). These front upper ones are the ones i took out, leaving only the 6 bottom ones under the BOSS plattform. These will still be active for the MA’s, i just replaced the front upper iso’s with wood spacer to match the height of the rear MA’s.

Haha, yes you are correct, i actually tested replacing the middle iso’s just under the MA’s with wood spacers( SO: RIGID IN OTHER WORDS) too, sorry i forgot about that, LOL.
That was a good test to prove what i was mentioning to you earlier about the total picture. Because the individual componenents all actually measured better with no iso’s under the MA’s !!

The "no iso graphs/ wood spacer/rigid" are all to the left in below pics.

MA only. (BOSS and BK’s also measured similarly better, strangely enough)










MA+BOSS+BK. Again, no iso/rigid measures better.










But look here, in The Meg clip full iso measured heaps better, and feels it too 










Granted, no iso’s/rigid under the MA’s makes them feel amazing on its own, but when combined with BOSS and BK’s on full iso it was simply better.

PS: note in all of these graphs the Y-axis also have increased numbers.


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## SBuger

^^^ ah ok, gotcha on the isos up top. Yeah I got stronger readings with NO iso on top too and only sitting on the MAs with back feet of seating. The front feet either on the platform with the front of seating angling down a little or blocks like you used to raise the front up to level. But, IIRC I preferred the feel of the isos on top almost every time. Probably because of my rigid seating I'm guessing. Will have to test all that now that I'm on to something different real soon. 

Man, that's crazy about the NO isos under the MAs on the bottom layer reading stronger on ALL components and combined on white noise (or sweeps right? ..I think your using REW sweeps). BUT, feels better and reads better on real world content WITH the isos under the MAs. hmmmmmm this stuff is crazy sometimes huh. Got to go with what feels best, and if the VS readings match too, then even better LOL


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## Nalleh

^^^ @SBuger, yeah, i guess content is King, right? LOL.

Yes, i use sweeps, they are so much better at picking up differences when you tweak, and IMO WN always looks so choppy. At least when i do them, LOL.

Anyway the point isn’t to compare to others, just to see differences in graphs when i tweak, and i find sweep do that much better.

Yeah, well ikind of expected the results from the rigid under MA test, as that would optimize the MA’s work condition, but hinder the BK and BOSS WORK when all combined. I could almost feel they were working a bit against each other, and the timing issue is probably most important in that case, as it kind of gets a rocking motion between the BK and BOSS.

I think this was a case of the negatives of the MA’s on full iso’s was more than compensated with the BK and BOSS(maybe easier to sum the total work), than the positives of having the optimized MA setup (rigid below) with the BK and BOSS kind of fighting against each other.

I guess this all just proves that setup is everything!!

Let me put it this way: there is a MASSIVE difference between the worst and the best setups in these posts! MASSIVE!
So if one just "plugs and play", there is almost guaranteed TR left on the tavle


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## Nalleh

One 4xJBL sealed converted to 2xJBL with downfiring SLAPS M12 










Working this weekend so will test next week


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## BP1Fanatic

Nice!


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## Nalleh

Ok i couldn’t wait, so i threw out the SI18 VNF and quickly got the JBL box with SLAPS in there 

No pics yet or measurement yet(late at night here), but first impressions?

Hmm, WOW!! That one! SLAPS is amazing in downfiring config! It bring it big time all the way down, wooble, punch, it does it all and from what i can hear and feel, it sums amazing in both the sound and TR department. It is actually way better than when i had the 2x JBL(pr seat) in BOSS config under the seat, LOL.
With it on my TR sled it is basically a VNF sub and a 4inch Xmax/400+grams mms BOSS all in one solution. 

Playing the demo clips from The Meg feels pretty darn close to the way the SI18 cantilever BOSS felt, it is awsome. 
And the JBL/SLAPS is WAY better as VNF than the SI18 VNF.

I am starting to get TOO MANY good TR solutions.... how will this end ?


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## Sekosche

After reading about your different SLAPS configurations, I started to look at PR solutions for future builds a long way off, and I could probably save a lot of space for VNF builds adding a pair of the matching 15” Dayton RSS390-PR to my existing drivers. 
Wouldn’t be using it on a BOSS sled, but who knows one day maybe...

So out of all your configurations you’ve tried so far, what are a couple of favorites?


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## Nalleh

^^ Well, my original stacked MA+BK was/is incredible, but combining it with BOSS has proved hard to better. Until cantilever came into the picture. The current favourite is with the SI18 in cantilever BOSS combined with stacked MA+BK. But it can’t be easily combined with VNF’s. Yet.....

The JBL/PR is an amazing combo of the VNF and cantilever boss, with impressive TR, but probably not quite as brutal as the 18", but not by a lot.

But honestly, this combo is probably more than enough, LOL. It is THAT good. And much easier to build and place 

I still have the 4xJBL mounted on the TR sled in cantilever BOSS to try out, the increased mms should improve on things+ it will make it easier to put a VNF on top. That BOSS version will be 4 JBL pr seat!

And i also plan to test the BK in cantilever.

Will see if i can make some progress this week.


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## DesertDog

Very nice on the SLAPS. When I add the cantilever part to my boss with the VNF JBLs on top I should add a few of them to it. Sounds like great bang for the buck.


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## Nalleh

For what it is, and for the purpose of TR, it is amazing. Granted i have a stacked MA +BK setup, but the added TR from just the one 12" SLAPS, is jawdropping! I just watched Captein America winter soldier with BEQ and the wooble the little 12" managed to give my seat was nothing less than impressive. I am defenitely going to see if no matter if i end up with 18" or 4x12" for cantilever BOSS, i need to look into how to also keep the PR in the mix 


4x12" cantilever TR sled coming up next :










Stay tuned....


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## BP1Fanatic

Keep doing you guy! Your experiments are outstanding!


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## Nalleh

Did a bit of VS graph today, before i took it apart to convert from JBL/PR cantilever BOSS/VNF to 4xJBL cantilever "normal" BOSS.

About the SLAPS: the manual states it has 289grams of MMS without the mass added, and the mass included is 255gram, so that means total MMS is 544grams! No wonder it is impressive, LOL.

And also the EQ and timing delay is left as is(same as NF’s have) on the JBL/PR to avoid messing with the FR.
Removed the seatback, so here is a peek at the VNF. Maybe a bit low for chest punch, but i did it this way in case the 18" BOSS must be used=taller shelf for the VNF. I can reconfigure if needed.










Can’t get more VNF than this 










And the TR Sled as it is configured for JBL/PR 










So here is each component with a flat signal(expect JBL/PR). All summed to the bottom right. It looks pretty ok here, and they sum well, so all is good 










And here is the usual clip from The Meg, and it is awsome, the two best setups was with all components in phase, and the other was with the MA’s out of phase/inverted. But they both felt... dare i say it: the best ever !
With this much TR displacement you get so involved with the action, in this case a submarine imploding, you are IN THE EXPLOSION, and your jaw is just on the floor, totally nuts! But still so precise and "analog" if i may say so. And the Z-axis is over limit again, but look at the Y-axis! It is almost at the limit too, and the Z and Y- axis sums extremly well on the graph, they are almost parallel.

PS: this is with the settings i use under normal watching, EQ, LPF etc.










Ok, out with that, and in with next test subject.










I can combine up and downfiring if i want/need.










Aaaannnd done. Should be fine to mount a VNF on top of this option 










Won’t get much testing until tomorrow.










This should be over 700grams of mms


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## SBuger

^^^ Friggin’ awesome as usual, LOT (Lord of TR )!!! 

That’s gotta feel insanely fantastic!! And yep, REAL nice Y axis too, that has feel great with it working so well with Z!!! 

Looking forward to the rest of your tests and looks like you’re about ready to do just that with the 4 JBLS cantilevered. Cool!!!

EDIT: I bet you'll be the first person ever to actually hit the LIMIT on both Z *and* Y axis at the same time in a VS reading  Go Nalleh!!!


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## DesertDog

Looking good! The cantilever build came out looking really nice. Good job. 

What are you going to put for VNF? The 2 JBL box or the 4? I'm assuming either will have the SLAPs in it. I need to start drawing out the design I have in my head for my cantilever expansion and start firming up the specs on it. Right now I'm thinking 8 JBLs across the back of the couch chest high coming up from the riser with maybe 4 SLAPS. Build it as 4 pairs with a SLAPS in each one.


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## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ Friggin’ awesome as usual, LOT (Lord of TR )!!!
> 
> That’s gotta feel insanely fantastic!! And yep, REAL nice Y axis too, that has feel great with it working so well with Z!!!
> 
> Looking forward to the rest of your tests and looks like you’re about ready to do just that with the 4 JBLS cantilevered. Cool!!!
> 
> EDIT: I bet you'll be the first person ever to actually hit the LIMIT on both Z *and* Y axis at the same time in a VS reading  Go Nalleh!!!


Thanks man, it starting to look like something good, right ?

Funny note: after getting the latest BOSS done this afternoon, my first impressions were rather : meh....
Couldn’t figure out what was wrong or why it didn’t work as expected, then finally hours later i caught it: i was supposed to connect the 4x JBL in series-parallel, and the first step was correct, i connected two in the BOSS in series, and same with the two other, but when i went to PARALLEL connect again, i had a brainfart and SERIES connected them for a total load of 16 ohm, instead of the expected 4ohm !! MAJOR difference, LOL.

And now it is to late to test anything, HAHA.
However just watching TV late at night, i can feel a wobble every now and then.

Promising


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Looking good! The cantilever build came out looking really nice. Good job.
> 
> What are you going to put for VNF? The 2 JBL box or the 4? I'm assuming either will have the SLAPs in it. I need to start drawing out the design I have in my head for my cantilever expansion and start firming up the specs on it. Right now I'm thinking 8 JBLs across the back of the couch chest high coming up from the riser with maybe 4 SLAPS. Build it as 4 pairs with a SLAPS in each one.


Thanks 

Yeah, that depends, i got multiple options, depending on what works best in the cantilever BOSS position. My plan was that if the 4x JBL cantilever BOSS works out, i would then use the SI18 on top of them as VNF’s and the 1 remaining box with 4x JBL as the middle VNF.

But now that the JBL/PR just blew me completely by surprise, i might end up with more boxes/drivers than i can use, LOL.

Regarding the SLAPS and the "rules" they had in their manual. I found a bit more reasonably statement at the Dayton PR page:

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rss390-pr-15-aluminum-cone-passive-radiator--295-504

"Tip: As a general rule, the passive radiator(s) should have at least double the displacement of air (Vd) as the active woofer(s)/subwoofer(s) in the system.
To calculate Vd: Sd x Xmax = Vd"

SLAPS= Sd 483cm2 x Xmax(one-way) 50.8mm =Vd 2453cm3

JBL= Sd 551cm2 x Xmax 12.1mm = 666cm3 x2 units= Vd 1333cm3 and that times 2 is slightly more than the SLAPS Vd at 2666cm3.
But i would say that is close enough.

So yeah, 2x JBL pr SLAPS M12 is a pretty good match., but one SLAPS on my 4x JBL box would be too much. And going to 2x SLAPS pr box is a doable option, but it will make the tune higher. But now that i have tested the SLAPS, i think for a VNF and TR solution like i did, the higher tune wouldn’t matter, because you would get higher SPL up higher AND more TR down low because of double the MMS. Win-win 
I could do either a 2x JBL + 2x SLAPS combo in each box, or even 4x JBL+ 2x SLAPS. All with the boxes i already have.


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> Thanks
> 
> Yeah, that depends, i got multiple options, depending on what works best in the cantilever BOSS position. My plan was that if the 4x JBL cantilever BOSS works out, i would then use the SI18 on top of them as VNF’s and the 1 remaining box with 4x JBL as the middle VNF.
> 
> But now that the JBL/PR just blew me completely by surprise, i might end up with to many boxes to use, LOL.
> 
> Regarding the SLAPS and the "rules" they had in their manual. I found a bit more reasonably statement at the Dayton PR page:
> 
> https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rss390-pr-15-aluminum-cone-passive-radiator--295-504
> 
> "Tip: As a general rule, the passive radiator(s) should have at least double the displacement of air (Vd) as the active woofer(s)/subwoofer(s) in the system.
> To calculate Vd: Sd x Xmax = Vd"
> 
> SLAPS= Sd 483cm2 x Xmax(one-way) 50.8mm =Vd 2453cm3
> 
> JBL= Sd 551cm2 x Xmax 12.1mm = 666cm3 x2 units= Vd 1333cm3 and that times 2 is slightly more than the SLAPS Vd at 2666cm3.
> But i would say that is close enough.
> 
> So yeah, 2x JBL pr SLAPS M12 is a pretty good match., but one SLAPS on my 4x JBL box would be too much. And going to 2x SLAPS pr box is a doable option, but it will make the tune higher. But now that i have tested the SLAPS, i think for a VNF and TR solution like i tested, the higher tune wouldn’t matter, because you would get higher SPL up higher AND more TR because of double the MMS.
> I could do either a 2x JBL + 2x SLAPS combo in each box, or even 4x JBL+ 2x SLAPS. All with the boxes i already have.



Great info! It's nice that my gut feeling on the SLAPS to JBL ratio was spot on.  

I think you had the SLAPS down firing IRC. Have you experimented with any other directions to see if it makes a difference?


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Great info! It's nice that my gut feeling on the SLAPS to JBL ratio was spot on.
> 
> I think you had the SLAPS down firing IRC. Have you experimented with any other directions to see if it makes a difference?


Yup, downfiring now, and it is the cat’s meoooww 

Yes i tested it forward facing:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-w...ranken-atmos-living-room-23.html#post57990084


----------



## Nalleh

Here is some scrap parts in the corner 










Just kidding, LOL.

OK, update time. Again. End in sight 

Just for the record this is now a new TR Sled, a little wider and an little bigger and a lot more sturdy and stiff. First one was made from scrap pieces just for testing. This new one is bulletproof 

I finished up some details today, but still need to make a shelf on top, so i just used some 2x2 pieces and slided (it’s a 100lb)the center VNF box on top of the sled so i had a VNF behind the seat for measuring. Looking good 










This is now my only remaining 4xJBL box, as they were first built.










2 inches of clearence, should be plenty 










Probably getting tired of these graph, but i like to do a "base" graph for all components when i start for the day, so here is today contestants: stacked MA, BK, BOSS and the VNF’s are one 4xJBL behind the measured(left) seat, and behind the right seat is the 2xJBL + frontfiring PR.










And here is all summed with different setups: left is all same phase and delay, middle is BK inverted, and right is MA and BOSS inverted. Inverted version summed best.











And here is the same clip as before from The Meg with each component ONLY! BK is over the Z- axis limit ALONE, LOL!
Look at the y-axis on the VNF’s, pretty good, and it is not even strapped or screwed on the plattform.









OK, here is the golden ticket; did someone ask for multiple axis LIMIT??
You ask, and i shall deliever 

The left graph is all in phase, so so good, but the two other setups, run right trough and over the Z AND Y- axis LIMIT !!










Holy moly!!
Actually all three axis sum extremely well, so that’s a nice bonus 

It seem i have found my best BOSS alternative....

Now for the best VNF alternative to put on top.....


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Killer setup!


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Hell yeah MR NALLEH!!!! Friggin' awesome to say the least, fantastic job my bro!!

and yup ...I knew that double axis LIMIT bust was coming  If it doesn't get any better than this moving forward (it will though), who cares, its already the best I've seen!!


----------



## Nalleh

Thanks man 
Yeah, i am not even sure i have maxed out everything yet either, LOL. But plenty of headroom is a good thing.

Honestly i think i’ll skip the BK in cantilever test, there is simply no need, and i can’t configure the rest in such a option. The way i have it all lined up now, it all works very well, so i think i have done the groundwork now, just cruising it to the finish line now 

Left to test is the VNF options. The 4xJBL is the one i am testing now, then the JBL/PR and the SI18.

I think it has more in it, LOL.


----------



## Nalleh

Yeah, it is friday, and let’s celebrate with some VS graphs 

Came to think about it, using the 4xJBL box as VNF isn’t a option, as i don’t have enough driver for 2 boxes. using the 2 SI18 boxes and this one 4xJBL box as 3 VNF’s is possible, but then i would miss out on the JBL/PR.

Anad i wanted to test the JBL/PR as VNF, because basically that setup would be like the last test with downfiring SLAPS, only now with the BOSS under it. So i took out the 4xJBL again, and made some feets for the JBL/PR box and put it on the TR Sled 

Here is the best from yesterday on the left graph, and today on the right. The one with MA & BOSS Inverted was the best one today. It is all about getting them to sum as good as possible.











And The Meg again, yesterday to the left and todays to the right. Almost hitting triple LIMITS !!!!!

Heck, even the X-axis is tripping 1e+00 on the graph, LOL.










WOW, it was like i hoped, the exellent results from using the JBL/PR as BOSS combined beatyfully with the "proper" 4xJBL BOSS right below it. The funny thing is it is still so precise and nuanced, it is not just a lot of rumble and movement or one note shaking, it is just like when i just had the MA+BK, only more, a lot more, LOL.

So now i have the formula, and just need to get the TR Sled nr2 done, so i can do the whole couch 

And i now have 2x SI18 in surplus, LOL.

I guess i can either stack them as VNF’s in center of couch, or use them as NF’ish, just as @SBuger is doing. We’ll see.

Got some pics coming later


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Yeppers .....really nice!! As for your VNF, I thought that JBL/PR (for BOSS duty as well) would take the cake for the ultimate VNF solution!! Yep, super nice axis overlay too on your graphs!! LOL...and yep almost triple LIMIT there on your MEG clip with inverted!! That's so cool!! 

Nice to have options with the extra SI's now. Yeah I'm sure either would be cool as NFish or more VNF behind the mid of your couch. 

Got my 3 drivers put back in my cabs yesterday, but is as far as I got with it and still not back in my room yet. Need to build my holders to get them angled up and close to my seat backs. Should be quite a bit better for feel than the way I used to run them I would think, even when my seating was lower. We'll see. Watching The Girl in the Spiders Web last night though just felt amazing even without the VNFs, with just BOSS sub riser + MAs only (and NFs and FF of course). Felt so good and so realistic, and just ....'right' that I almost don't even want to mess with my VNFs. HA, that would be crazy though right!!?? LOL


----------



## Nalleh

Just throwing out some pics here, comment more tomorrow.

EDIT: made some feets for the JBL/PR to stand on top of the BOSS, 4 inches of clearance.










A lot of goodies in these pics 



















Final version of TR Sled  Seat ended up a tad under 5 inches higher than original, and the VNF box is 10" higher than before, so using the JBL’s in the bottom holes fits pretty good.










Seat back is almost touching the VNF box in reclined mode, perfect.










TR Sled nr2 is already done


----------



## Nalleh

Managed to watch a couple of movies over the weekend and discovered some popping noises from one of the LFE components during loud ULF transients.

One example is at 10:10 in Captein America Civil War, where black widow is fighting some bad guys, there is a couple of ~15hz bursts that is very loud(look at the BEQ spectrum in Bass EQ thread).

My first suspect was the BOSS unit, as i am not yet limiting them on the amp, but it turned out it was the JB/PR VNF that bottomed out. And it wasn’t the SLAPS, it was the JBL’s. I was thinking, if i have to turn down the level, using a HPF or negative LS, that would affect all content on all listening levels. So once again i activated the compressor function on the 10x10HD. And guess what: it worked perfect for this purpose, it is a soft(totally adjustable) limiter, so you don’t notice it engaging, and it allows you to keep whatever EQ or HC you want, and only limits power when it becomes to much to handle.

It kind of works like a "reverse" Inuke DEQ, only instead of increasing area of the FR curve you choose when lowering the volume, you taylor the FR curve like you want, and instead limit it when it goes bananas 

And then i thought: could that approach work on the BK’s too, to prevent them bottoming out, instead of using the negative LS i have been using up until now, and yup, it works equally great there . So then i ran each of my LFE components(exept FF’s) through some of my demo clips, while tweaking the compressor on each output, and ended up with no bottoming, plopping or clacking, just clean deep ULF TR. I was very impressed with how perfect the compressor worked in this case, because i don’t have DSP amps on all my gear, so this was a great solution


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Nice adjustments!


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> Managed to watch a couple of movies over the weekend and discovered some popping noises from one of the LFE components during loud ULF transients.
> 
> One example is at 10:10 in Captein America Civil War, where black widow is fighting some bad guys, there is a couple of ~15hz bursts that is very loud(look at the BEQ spectrum in Bass EQ thread).
> 
> My first suspect was the BOSS unit, as i am not yet limiting them on the amp, but it turned out it was the JB/PR VNF that bottomed out. And it wasn’t the SLAPS, it was the JBL’s. I was thinking, if i have to turn down the level, using a HPF or negative LS, that would affect all content on all listening levels. So once again i activated the compressor function on the 10x10HD. And guess what: it worked perfect for this purpose, it is a soft(totally adjustable) limiter, so you don’t notice it engaging, and it allows you to keep whatever EQ or HC you want, and only limits power when it becomes to much to handle.
> 
> It kind of works like a "reverse" Inuke DEQ, only instead of increasing area of the FR curve you choose when lowering the volume, you taylor the FR curve like you want, and instead limit it when it goes bananas


Nice! You said it wasn't the SLAPS but the JBLs bottoming out. Do you think it was the addition of the SLAPS to the box though that allowed the JBLs to start bottoming out? 

Mentioning the Inuke DEQ reminded me too that I need to look into how to actually set it up. I've never used it before and wanted to start using it to boost my BOSS up a bit at lower levels.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Nice! You said it wasn't the SLAPS but the JBLs bottoming out. Do you think it was the addition of the SLAPS to the box though that allowed the JBLs to start bottoming out?
> 
> Mentioning the Inuke DEQ reminded me too that I need to look into how to actually set it up. I've never used it before and wanted to start using it to boost my BOSS up a bit at lower levels.


Yes, it was because of converting to "ported". Sending the same 300W pr driver to them now, is asking for 25mm+ Xmax from them(at the same 15hz the content in question was), so they bottom out. They no longer has the "stiff air spring" a small sealed box is.
The SLAPS is at ~80mm stroke at that power, so it’s still good .
So, using the compressor took care of the bottoming, but left all the good stuff in there 

In fact the compressor works so seamless and unnoticed, that i actually use Low Shelfs on both the BOSS, JBL/PR’s and the BK’s to add as much ULF as possible except for those mega bursts that overpower them 

Speaking of, after i read @Sekosche was taking it for a spin, i watched Battle Los Angeles tonight, and O!!!! M!!!!G!!!!!

What a ride!! Holy Moly that movies has a INSANE soundtrack! I used Neural X upmixing for a 9.1.6 config, and altough using even the modern upmixers isn’t a garuantee for a good experience, THIS ONE was ! It had exellent surround and height action and as such was A LOT better than many of the native Atmos/X tracks out there.

And the LFE track...... man it was off the hook! Totally nuts, and BY FAR the best experience i have had in my setup! It was relentless, had very creative use of sounds/effects, guns, bombs, the alien aircrafts, etc.

And it had it all, wobble, punch, sweeps, and all weapons and bombs had different sound signatures, i had such a blast, LOL, i was exhausted after the movie was done, holy cow, HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!! I have of course seen it before, but a long time ago now, with a much smaller setup, so it was such a cool revisit 

After my earlier tweaks on the compressors, this was a perfect test to see how it worked, and i am happy to report no bad sounds from my setup, no popping, bottoming, distorsion(although it is probably there, but nut audiable), so that was cool.
In fact i am so impressed with how well all the components work together now, it is awsome, with so many different components that all have their pros and cons, getting them all to cooperate isn’t easy, but it seems i have made them behave together. It is so dynamic, explosive, the wobbles is just nuts, and it is so tight it is like it is trying to slap you. With a BIIIG hand, LOL. And it sounds and feels so effortless, like the headroom is endless, it just keeps going, there is never a time where you think: oh, that was a little over the top. It’s rather : how the hell can it sound/feel like that, without struggling??


Also, i got the 2x SI18" setup in a NF’ish config, like @SBuger has them, to the sides of the MLP along the back wall, and no REW on them yet, just a quick delay and phase setup by ear, but they really seem to "fill out" the LFE better, it sounded more complete and full.


Here is a pic, you can see the SI’s in the outer rear corners. Sorry for the mess, but i was on my way to work, so just a quick pic 











Fun times


----------



## Sekosche

I bet Battle L.A. is just relentless on your setup! 

I agree about setup complexity being finicky, and I hate recalibrating everything for this reason, because usually I get it just to my liking and then the next big change in the setup I lose a little special sauce doing another calibration and am taking one step forward and another one back. I don’t spend much time these days tweaking anymore now that I know where I like most my settings and haven’t even ran REW in a good while, such a rabbit hole it can be.

Battle L.A. and MMFR are probably the two bass tracks that wear me out to the point of exhaustion when ran full tilt. Speaking of which, I haven’t watched MMFR in a while, but that’s part of the reason why, so brutal!

Looking at the long game now for some serious nearfield subwoofer power, and these “reasonably priced” 21” pro drivers have been calling to me. Just ran across the LaVoce San214.5 Neo drivers that look to be a bargain at only $450 each and seem to be nearly identical to the B&C 21DS115 for $150 less, but they are 8ohm only so I would definitely fall short on power with an iNuke 6K, but I probably wouldn’t need that much anyway. I barely use 5-600w for each of my current 15” nearfields and rarely ever hit the limiter on them.

https://www.parts-express.com/lavoce-san21450-21-neodymium-subwoofer-8-ohm--293-732

It’s innovative DIY threads like yours that make this hobby so fun, and a never ending journey for what is possible and enjoyable. I’ve been working nights the last 4 years and am finally getting back to day shift soon, so I’ll be looking forward to having more time for projects during the daylight hours. I’ve got a big family vacation coming up at the end of July so probably not a good time to drop another grand on HT gear, but will see if any decent sales pop up to get the ball rolling before the end of summer. And this is only if the wife doesn’t kill me for wanting to already replace my current 4.5 cu ft VNF subs with a larger single 10 cu ft box behind the couch after only a year. 

Keep up the good work!


----------



## Nalleh

^^^Thanks man  

Hey now, don’t sell yourself short, i bet it is insane on your setup too, with MA’s, BOSS and ported 15" VNF’s, you have a pretty crazy setup too  

Oh yeah, the complexity can be daunting when you start tweaking, but what i find extremely satisfying is when you get a better results than when you started  Just from tweaking what you already have!
But i agree, i was super happy with my setup after i did the stack MA’s, and had no plans on going further, but as we now: i did, LOL.

But today i am glad i did, because the end result is just staggering, and much better than i hoped. Tried a lot of versions, but have now ended up with a setup i can live with .... i think...

And yes, i too know what works with my setup, and a REW session is rather fast nowadays, so delays, levels and EQ is almost done without measuring. A advantage of knowing your setup and what you like 

Yeah, i have been reading about those B&C and LaVoce drivers too, they seem quite spectacular for the money, so they would probably pound something fierce as nearfields, LOL. Seems like they work extremely well i PSA’s new TV36 subs, so yeah, would be fun to try out. Let us know how that goes, if you go there 

I work nights and weekends too, so i understand about finding time for projects, however i am single, so no WAF to consider, LOL. I don’t think my setup would be this crazy if i wasn’t, HAHA.

BTW: have you seen Fury lately? It is insane in UHD and Atmos, and it has a awsome LFE track too


----------



## Sekosche

Nalleh said:


> BTW: have you seen Fury lately? It is insane in UHD and Atmos, and it has a awsome LFE track too



It is insane! I’ve watched the Fury UHD twice already with BEQ too (I think once after adding the first BOSS), and it was spectacular! Such a well balanced track with just brutal midbass, mortar explosions, machine guns galore, and that deep tank rumbling ULF. Although it’s just an updated soundtrack in my setup, it was easily one of my favorite’s of the year.

I posted my brief thoughts on it in the bass thread after @PioManiac recommended it, and how it nearly gave me an anxiety attack at +120dB’s; only time I’ve experienced that from audio. It was the first movie I really let rip after adding the VNF subs, and wow they really made it pound. It’s memories like that when I wonder why/if I really want more bass...but more is usually better. 

Now I want to watch Fury again, but first I need to give Lone Survivor a BOSS ride, lol. 

The new PSA subs are also what got me looking into pro audio drivers, as those definitely look to be some beasts. I’m still undecided if I want to shoot for a little higher tune in the mid/upper 20’s in a bit smaller cab 5-7cu ft with a pair of boxes or go bigger around 10 cu ft for a 20Hz tune closer to where all my subs are now with a single driver. I guess I could just build one smaller cab for starters and see how I like it, would definitely be the wallet friendly way to go.

I feel like I wouldn’t miss much around 20Hz for TR with all the other fire power I have now, but it’s hard to say without experimenting. The cabs have to be really slim, 14-16” at most for depth to fit behind me and less than 24-26” tall, so I’m not really wanting to build a super long 80”+ single sub enclosure that would be very awkward to handle, which is why I broke up my current VNF into two boxes with one behind each seat.

Luckily, I’ve got a week off now, so plenty of time to get the DIY wheels turning. I think I’ll start a build help thread for potential slim 21” sub designs to verify my WinISD modeling is accurate, and the ideas are sound. We’ll see what the future holds!

Hope you have a good work/weekend!


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Yup, Fury was probably the first movie that got me exhausted too, after the first tank battle i was like: "phew, i almost fogot to breathe there". It is awsome !
Yes, all this TR firepower decreases the need for a low tuned NF somewhat, but if tuned to high, it migh be more localizable, so it is a balance. However you can just turn it down, it that happens, so no biggie. But it seems midbass/punch isn’t hard to do, it’s the ULF that is difficult, and that is what i love, so i would actually do as low a tune as possible. But that’s just me 

A build thread sounds like a good start 

Have a nice weekend you too


----------



## Kevnmin

Nalleh said:


> Managed to watch a couple of movies over the weekend and discovered some popping noises from one of the LFE components during loud ULF transients.
> ....I was thinking, if i have to turn down the level, using a HPF or negative LS, that would affect all content on all listening levels. So once again i activated the compressor function on the 10x10HD. And guess what: it worked perfect for this purpose, it is a soft(totally adjustable) limiter, so you don’t notice it engaging, and it allows you to keep whatever EQ or HC you want, and only limits power when it becomes to much to handle.
> It kind of works like a "reverse" Inuke DEQ, only instead of increasing area of the FR curve you choose when lowering the volume, you taylor the FR curve like you want, and instead limit it when it goes bananas


Nalleh, can you share more about what you're doing with the compressor function. Either the settings you use or how how you derived the setting to use. I read the manual last night for the 2x4HD I have in my system. It sort of make sense, but I'm still somewhat confused by it. 

I'm using an old Sony AVR to power my BOSS. I feel that I have my MV on that unit set just about right, but I do experience the random bottoming out. Last one was in the new Death Wish with Bruce Willis. I didnt time stamp the time, but it was at the bar scene about 3/4 into the movie. The deep ULF music in the background scene was the culprit, but only at one time throughout the whole scene. I think this compressor function would work effectively as you've found.


----------



## Nalleh

@Kevnmin:

Sure, no problem.

In this recent case i had a scene that caused the bottoming, so i used that to test the settings. First of all i played that clip repeatedly with only one LFE component active at a time, while increasing the volume up to my normal movie watching level. This way i found which one was bottoming/overpowered.

Then i started by setting the threshold at -25dB to see if it was enough. You can also see when/how much it activates on the vertical green to red bar. If that was enough, try reducing, if not: increase.

The bar only shows what’s above the threshold, so it should only be active on the peaks/loud sounds). So if it is on 0(zero), it is not still activating.










PS: not the settings i use in pic.

I set the ratio at 4-6 (a rather sharp knee), because i want that level to be more of a stop, not just sligthly progressive.

Then there are 3 more settings: attack, hold and release. As explained in the manual, these are for how quick it activates, how long it holds, and how long before it deactivates after the peak is gone.
Once i found the needed threshold level, i tweaked the others setting and ended up on 30-50ms on the attack and release, and 20-30ms on the hold parameters. 

This fixed the problem like clockwork


----------



## Kevnmin

Thanks for the pointers. I'll do some experimenting to find the magic numbers.

By the way, I love the config of your TR sled setup now. The numbers you posted, holy crap!!!!!!!


----------



## Nalleh

Kevnmin said:


> Thanks for the pointers. I'll do some experimenting to find the magic numbers.
> 
> By the way, I love the config of your TR sled setup now. The numbers you posted, holy crap!!!!!!!


No worries, and good luck


----------



## Nalleh

Hmm, just a week in, and i am already planning upgrades, LOL !

Ok, so a i have now loaded my TR Sled with(amongst other) a 4xJBL cantilever BOSS + the 2xJBL+1x PR VNF/BOSS box on top of that. And it works awsome.

But somehow it just seems i have more gas in the tank....i still feel using 8 total JBL’s pumping free air, seems like a waste, altough it works great for TR, and then i end up with just 2 VNF boxes with "just" 4x JBL’s total(+2x PR) for NF SPL.

So the Pr setup i use now is:

2x 4cf NF boxes each with 2xJBL +1 x downfiring SLAPS M12. MMS for BOSS action= 544 x 2= 1088grams.

And then 8x JBL total in cantilever BOSS. MMS= 179 x 8=1432grams

= 2520grams total MMS for the whole couch.

What i am thinking is:

Use the 3x NF boxes each with 4xJBL as i had it from the start, only adding 2x SLAPS m12 downfiring in each box, so MMS=544 x 6= 3262 gram TOTAL (no BOSS).

This way i will get more MMS for better BOSS function, AND still have all the 12x12" JBL’s for VNF duty making SPL. Plus the added low end from the 6x SLAPS.

The WINisd looks rather similar for the 2xJBL+1xPR as it does for the 4xJBL+2xPR, only more midbass for the latter, but no disadvantages.

Yellow is 4x sealed, blue is 2+1PR, and red is 4+2PR. Both active and passive drivers behave similar in both PR setups, stroke wise.










And instead of 1 xPR working at ~60-80mm stroke, i will have 2 per box!

Sounds like a no-brainer in my brain 

Oh, and i slapped some paint on the nr2 TR Sled


----------



## SBuger

Great stuff man!! 

Sounds like the compressor on the mini works great!!

Also, way cool about Battle Los Angeles. I thought I had that one but don't. Need to check it out for sure. I remember that used to be one of coolrda's favorites for full band craziness, right before he became inactive. That and HTTYD (and TIH) of course.

As far as your latest plan, sounds good. I'm sure you'll settle in on the ultimate and be nothing short of AMAZING!! It already is, but will get even better I'm sure  There always seems to be room for improvement in this crazy hobby of ours. 

Seems kind of strange for me after the last couple months (and even years lol) of seemingly endless experimenting and tweaking, that over the last 3-4 days I've just enjoyed the HT with none of that. Felt reaaaaaaally good actually lol. Finished up the last two seasons of Game of Thrones and some other stuff. 

Cool that you mention B:LA upmixed as being so good from 5.1.

I don't know what it is about 5.1, but it seems to upmix very well for the surrounds channels with an amazing kind of atmosphere or something with Neural:X. Even more so than 7.1 for me with the mixes I've tried it on. EX. Tome raider (the latest one) upmixed in N:X was just crazy and better in ways than the actual atmos mix. I thought GoT was amazing as well upmixed with Neural from the 5.1 track. 

I do think (at least on my system), that the bass (dynamics, clarity, and just raw precision and power (the kind that is hard to describe)) lacks in comparison to the base mix with no upmixer (Neural or the DSU) whether it be 5.1 or 7.1. The bass is just different and losses something with the upmixers in comparison. Maybe a tad bit better in some ways, but suffers in bigger ways (mainly ULF I think). I've noticed this on just about every track I've done the comparisons on. Pirates: DMTNT actually shocked me at the difference and was sickening to find this out. Yes the overall surrounds where better and more engulfing, but the bass suffered in weird ways like I was trying to describe. Sometimes is doesn't matter, and I didn't really care on GOT because the surround and envelopment was so much better and the bass was still good. And if one doesn't do a direct comparison, you may never know the difference anyway in the bass. 

Me and biga use to talk about his quite a bit a while back (before he went missing around here too) and we both found the same thing. Except Neo:X didn't seem to do this with the bass on his, nor did it when I was Neo:X capable on my older system. I wish they still had that as an upmixer option instead of just DSU and Nueral:X only for the older (and sometimes newer) non atmos or dtx movie mixes. 

I may be in the extreme minority here though and one of the few that notices it. Or it could just be on my system. It may be different on you system with so many speakers, but on mine with the normal 11 channels, bass suffers with these two umixers. Sounds like it kicked major ass for you though on B:LA and all your speakers (surround and bass). I'm sure it does as well with most content, 5.1 or 7.1 non atmos mixes. 

Do you ever find this to be the case for you in what I was trying to describe on non-atmos/dtx mix's with the upmixers or do you find it to be the same or maybe even better in the bass department?

With all your speakers though, you may use one of the upmixers (Neural:X) all the time though, even on native atmos/dtx mix's, IDK. Just curious.


----------



## Nalleh

Thanks man 

Yup, you need to get Battle L.A for sure, it is awsome. Can’t believe you don’t have that one, it should be in everyones demo disc pile 

Yeah, i need to order some more SLAPS, and then go for that change. Looking into it.

It is great to finally enjoy some movies, huh? I have managed to see a couple too lately, both John Wicks for example(both were awsome), and plan to watch more going forward.

Yeah, some movies gets a tremendous upgrade from the upmixers, while others are just "mehh", so you never can tell going in how it will turn out.
However i always use one of the upmixers, unless it is native Atmos/X/Auro, So i haven’t noticed any difference in the LFE track. The little i have tested that, i did not noticed any difference either, so that sounds strange.

It may be that my setup is tuned to how i normally listen to it, as since i always use upmixers, it is not a problem for me.

However i have noticed that the Auromatic upmixer seem to have a louder LFE track than DSU and X, but haven’t investigated it further.


----------



## SBuger

Yep for sure, I need to get Battle LA. I did have it at one time on my Hard Drive but lost it. I thought I had replaced it but guess I never did. Gonna do that for sure!! Also glad you mentioned the John Wicks, as I was wanting to re-watch those again to get ready for the 3rd installment but might have forgotten about it with all the other stuff I want to watch as well. 

Also I need to go check out that Underworld Awakening again since you mentioned it in the BEQ thread. That used to be one of my absolute favorite Demo movies (lots of scenes) even before BEQ got hot around here. That movie is insane bass wise and will just pummel and shake you death in such a good way. Some of the best bass ever IMO, right there along side MMFR. Those two just deliver in the BIG bass slam you can really feel, even beyond some of the best bass movies around IMO. Maybe its their mega powerful 20-35hz area and the way its used IDK, along with some deep stuff in there too. 

You and Sekosche were talking about MMFR and Fury being so awesome and exhausting with so much intensity and some of your best experiences. On my last system, that's how MMFR and Underworld Awakening were to me. I remember letting them rip full out when I use to listen louder with about the same amount of TR system capability I have now, and was exhausting (and even terrifying) in such a great and awesome way LOL    Those were the most insane Bass and TR experiences I've ever had back on that system with those two movies. I need to revisit them again on this one, just not quite as loud and see how it compares (I use to listen too loud, because the louder you can listen the more slam you can get). Not good on the ears though if it gets too loud, at least not mine. 

Heck, maybe it'll be even better now with this system . A bit different I'm sure, but hopefully as good or better. That'd be cool  I demo'd my current favorite today of that street chase scene in 'Venom'. It seemed so brutal and had that certain terrifying feel to it, yet still in complete control. It actually felt like it was hurting my insides from bass intensity (although I know it was mainly TR intensity that just seems like ultra powerful bass), but man was it ever satisfying    It's the feeling I've been chasing ever since moving into this new room. I've had it, but wanted more of it. I'm sure you get a real similar kind of feeling and then some on that Battle LA movie (and others) from your descriptions of it (which I loved reading about BTW!! ) I can only image the brutality you get from it on you system!!!!    

I also ran those sniper shots again from The Girl in the Spiders Web that Aron was talking about in the BEQ thread. INSANE!!! Have you checked that on out yet? Super cool use of ULF throughout too!! Good movie too I though, if you haven't seen it yet. 

But yeah man, so great to finally start enjoying some content and be really happy with the system, as well as through in my normal demo time (which is just so fun and satisfying in its own way )

Cool then on your up mixer experiences, glad to hear it that you don't notice a diff in bass quality or presentation on your killer Frankenatmos system, except louder with Aura!!!  That's fantastic, and easy enough to turn your sub trims down a hair too if need be when you do switch to that one. 

I wish I didn't notice a diff in bass presentation, but I do on my system. Oh well, there are becoming more and more good ATMOS and DTS:X mixes all the time. I'll have to try it out again though, and Underworld Awakening will be a good one, since its DTS-MA 7.1 still. I'll try normal DTS-MA 7.1 against DSU and Neural:X. The surround I know will be way more immersive with the upmixers, but am pretty sure my bass will suffer from it too as usual, unfortunately. It's not just that's a little louder either, as I do need to usually turn down the trims about .5 to 1 db to level match them better to non umpmixed (from the redirected bass from extra ceiling channels I think), but it's not just that. It's different feeling and lacking in certain areas vs just the plain ole DTS-MA 7.1 track. Whatever the reason on my system, I wish it wasn't so, but it's there ever time I do the comparison on most good movie bass material. I guess I really only care about this on intense demo sessions on some of my favorite tracks. Just movie watching, not near as big of a deal and the better surround is welcomed.


----------



## Nalleh

Yes, those are all demo movies you mention, for sure 
Yeah, i actually have The Girl In The Spiders Web, just haven’t watched it yet. I actually got all of them recently, both the swedish(original) trio, and the other US version with Daniel Craig, so need to see all of them, LOL.

OK, on another note, got "done" with one of the TR Sleds today, so here’s a couple pics of that.

Started by removing the unpainted one and swapping in the one i painted earlier, this will be for my(left) seat, and i will paint the other one and put on the right side. Ready to mount with iso’s in place 










Everything setup and connected, BK’s in front, stacked MA’s with temp probes, and the 4xJBL BOSS in cantilever mounting.










Seat on sled.










And VNF in place with the 2xJBL+PR. I will use this "temporary" PR box until i get the SLAPS to convert to 4xJBL+2X PR.










Everything is basically setup to mount the other sled too, only some tweaking on the MDF under that seat. Will probably get it done this weekend.

Will be interesting to see if linking those two sleds together as one will have any impact on how it feels and perform


----------



## Nalleh

And i also did a little REW to see how it looks.










Since BEQ i have removed a lot of the house curve, as it is plenty without, LOL, so a much flatter curve now. Didn’t do to much tweaking on the curve, i see that the SI18" NF’s have a dip at ~35hz and the JBL VNF’s at ~ 18hz , but no biggie


----------



## SBuger

WAY COOL!!!!!! The meanest looking TR setup I've ever seen, and I'm sure feels like it too!!!!!!! 

Paint looks great and so do your FR graphs, NICE!!!!

Yeah will be interesting too see what you think when you connect it to your other sled, as well as the more improved VNF/BOSS 4JBL+2x PR versus the 2JBL+1PR. I'm thinking something like


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> Yes, those are all demo movies you mention, for sure
> Yeah, i actually have The Girl In The Spiders Web, just haven’t watched it yet. I actually got all of them recently, both the swedish(original) trio, and the other US version with Daniel Craig, so need to see all of them, LOL.
> 
> OK, on another note, got "done" with one of the TR Sleds today, so here’s a couple pics of that.
> 
> Started by removing the unpainted one and swapping in the one i painted earlier, this will be for my(left) seat, and i will paint the other one and put on the right side. Ready to mount with iso’s in place
> 
> Everything is basically setup to mount the other sled too, only some tweaking on the MDF under that seat. Will probably get it done this weekend.
> 
> Will be interesting to see if linking those two sleds together as one will have any impact on how it feels and perform


Are you keeping the BOSS now? From your post the other day it sounded like you were removing it and going with 4x JBL + 2x SLAPS boxes instead. I was going to ask why not keep the BOSS with the 4x2x boxes. 
@SBuger I'm surprised too that you didn't have Battle LA. It's a monster and doesn't even need BEQ (but of course we BEQed it ) Did you ever check out the Pulse server room scene? 

Another movie to mention with the others that were just listed is Ender's Game. If you haven't tried it in awhile there's an explosion at the end that makes the catalyst bomb in RP1 look tame. It rattled stuff that I didn't know could be rattled.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Are you keeping the BOSS now? From your post the other day it sounded like you were removing it and going with 4x JBL + 2x SLAPS boxes instead. I was going to ask why not keep the BOSS with the 4x2x boxes.
> 
> @SBuger I'm surprised too that you didn't have Battle LA. It's a monster and doesn't even need BEQ (but of course we BEQed it ) Did you ever check out the Pulse server room scene?
> 
> Another movie to mention with the others that were just listed is Ender's Game. If you haven't tried it in awhile there's an explosion at the end that makes the catalyst bomb in RP1 look tame. It rattled stuff that I didn't know could be rattled.



Keeping the BOSS for now 

I only have two SLAPS units so far, so i will order 4 more to do that conversion. And i also have "just" 12 JBL’s in total, so i can’t do 8 in BOSS AND 12 in the VNF boxes.

I don’t want to convert the VNF boxes until i have the SLAPS, because that would leave two gaping holes in each box, LOL. Bad for LFE.....

So for now it is 2x VNF boxes and 8x JBL BOSS.

IT’s not like either is a BAD solution though, LOL.

Yeah, about BATTLE L.A, i didn’t even use the BEQ file when i watched it. I was...afraid to....
Granted it’s not the biggest BEQ, but it should make a difference nevertheless.


----------



## Nalleh

BTW @ryanmh1 : did you notice they have updated the TS for the SLAPS slighly?

https://content.earthquakesound.dk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/07064648/SLAPS-12M_chart.pdf


----------



## SBuger

DesertDog said:


> Are you keeping the BOSS now? From your post the other day it sounded like you were removing it and going with 4x JBL + 2x SLAPS boxes instead. I was going to ask why not keep the BOSS with the 4x2x boxes.
> 
> @SBuger I'm surprised too that you didn't have Battle LA. It's a monster and doesn't even need BEQ (but of course we BEQed it ) Did you ever check out the Pulse server room scene?
> 
> Another movie to mention with the others that were just listed is Ender's Game. If you haven't tried it in awhile there's an explosion at the end that makes the catalyst bomb in RP1 look tame. It rattled stuff that I didn't know could be rattled.


LOL yeah ..i just kinda forgot about it until Nalleh brought it back up. Also, I think LastButNotLeast posted that pulse scene in MKV too for me over in the VS thread a while back. Need to go snag it. 

And yep ..Enders Game is another. Now I do have that one on disc  Not the Atmos version though ;/




Nalleh said:


> Keeping the BOSS for now
> 
> I only have two SLAPS units so far, so i will order 4 more to do that conversion. And i also have "just" 12 JBL’s in total, so i can’t do 8 in BOSS AND 12 in the VNF boxes.
> 
> I don’t want to convert the VNF boxes until i have the SLAPS, because that would leave two gaping holes in each box, LOL. Bad for LFE.....
> 
> So for now it is 2x VNF boxes and 8x JBL BOSS.
> 
> IT’s not like either is a BAD solution though, LOL.
> 
> Yeah, about BATTLE L.A, i didn’t even use the BEQ file when i watched it. I was...afraid to....
> Granted it’s not the biggest BEQ, but it should make a difference nevertheless.


Oh yeah, I didn't think of that, you not having enough 12's for 4 per VNF box + the 4 per seat BOSS canti as well. hmmm ..well should be more than good (maybe even way better) with the extra PRs instead.

yo Nalleh, - I think somebody mentioned over in the BOSS thread, about mounting something in a way to increase X axis (side to side). You ever thought about mounting something (like one of your BKs or driver perhaps facing side to side instead of straight down or forward? Not that your X axis is lacking at all, quite the opposite, but could perhaps overlap perfectly with the other 2 axis into the singles, possibly on your Meg VS and others. 

Just a thought if you wanted to bring it up more, might be worth trying. It might be just about right though as is. I think it was d00d that mentioned somewhere that he thought the X and Y axis (even more so on the X side to side) that the body feels that more strongly than Y and even more so than Z. If that is true or not I don't know for sure, but think it might actually be true. I know at one point, when I had two seats and was messing around I had one of my VNF subs facing into the side seat (into its side, not behind it) super close to my seat I don't set in. It gave me a LOT more side to side feel in the ULF department. Honestly, not quite sure what I thought of it, but was most definitely felt and brought a different kind of feeling that I wasn't used to.


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> WAY COOL!!!!!! The meanest looking TR setup I've ever seen, and I'm sure feels like it too!!!!!!!
> 
> Paint looks great and so do your FR graphs, NICE!!!!
> 
> Yeah will be interesting too see what you think when you connect it to your other sled, as well as the more improved VNF/BOSS 4JBL+2x PR versus the 2JBL+1PR. I'm thinking something like


Thanks man 

It’s kind of funny looking back now, i was over the moon when i got the stack up and running, and after some tuning, got the graph to the left in pic below.

To the right is what i have today. The difference is just ridicolous !!!! Not just the numbers, but the graph is so much better now with all axis combining like that, it’s hard to believe actually.


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Oh yeah, I didn't think of that, you not having enough 12's for 4 per VNF box + the 4 per seat BOSS canti as well. hmmm ..well should be more than good (maybe even way better) with the extra PRs instead.
> 
> yo Nalleh, - I think somebody mentioned over in the BOSS thread, about mounting something in a way to increase X axis (side to side). You ever thought about mounting something (like one of your BKs or driver perhaps facing side to side instead of straight down or forward? Not that your X axis is lacking at all, quite the opposite, but could perhaps overlap perfectly with the other 2 axis into the singles, possibly on your Meg VS and others.
> 
> Just a thought if you wanted to bring it up more, might be worth trying. It might be just about right though as is. I think it was d00d that mentioned somewhere that he thought the X and Y axis (even more so on the X side to side) that the body feels that more strongly than Y and even more so than Z. If that is true or not I don't know for sure, but think it might actually be true. I know at one point, when I had two seats and was messing around I had one of my VNF subs facing into the side seat (into its side, not behind it) super close to my seat I don't set in. It gave me a LOT more side to side feel in the ULF department. Honestly, not quite sure what I thought of it, but was most definitely felt and brought a different kind of feeling that I wasn't used to.



I did try something like that. Don’t you remember when i first built the MDF plattform, i had one BK one each end, and they worked a lot more in the X-axis, actually swapping Z- axis for the X-axis instead.

But didn’t care for it much..... it doesn’t feel natural coming from the sides, i like it from below and behind.

When i moved the BK’s from each end to under the seat, it was miles better


----------



## Kevnmin

SBuger said:


> yo Nalleh, - I think somebody mentioned over in the BOSS thread, about mounting something in a way to increase X axis (side to side). You ever thought about mounting something (like one of your BKs or driver perhaps facing side to side instead of straight down or forward? Not that your X axis is lacking at all, quite the opposite, but could perhaps overlap perfectly with the other 2 axis into the singles, possibly on your Meg VS and others.
> 
> Just a thought if you wanted to bring it up more, might be worth trying. It might be just about right though as is. I think it was d00d that mentioned somewhere that he thought the X and Y axis (even more so on the X side to side) that the body feels that more strongly than Y and even more so than Z. If that is true or not I don't know for sure, but think it might actually be true. I know at one point, when I had two seats and was messing around I had one of my VNF subs facing into the side seat (into its side, not behind it) super close to my seat I don't set in. It gave me a LOT more side to side feel in the ULF department. Honestly, not quite sure what I thought of it, but was most definitely felt and brought a different kind of feeling that I wasn't used to.





Nalleh said:


> I did try something like that. Don’t you remember when i first built the MDF plattform, i had one BK one each end, and they worked a lot more in the X-axis, actually swapping Z- axis for the X-axis instead.
> 
> But didn’t care for it much..... it doesn’t feel natural coming from the sides, i like it from below and behind.
> 
> When i moved the BK’s from each end to under the seat, it was miles better


 @Nallehh I'm glad you mentioned your experience with that because just as @SBuger mentioned, I did make the comment about wanting to try the X axis over in the Boss thread. Sounds like you're light years ahead in the TR realm of experiments. I believe I'll pass on the side to side thoughts now and continue to come up with my own version 2 -most likely more of the cantilever design rather than under seat.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> I did try something like that. Don’t you remember when i first built the MDF plattform, i had one BK one each end, and they worked a lot more in the X-axis, actually swapping Z- axis for the X-axis instead.
> 
> But didn’t care for it much..... it doesn’t feel natural coming from the sides, i like it from below and behind.
> 
> When i moved the BK’s from each end to under the seat, it was miles better


Yes, but I'm talking about not something actually mounted to the side of you, I'm talking about maybe a BK underneath you but just mounted sideways, (not normal mounting and off to the side). Or even a driver or something. Make sense? May not be any good though, IDK. Could possible give too much X as well, again IDK. Was just a thought since you are master of experiment   

When you had the BK mounted on the sides, you just had them mounted normal side up vertical right? Yes, I agree, pull to one side or the other is not good and seems out of balance if you can feel it (not good at all!). Not the same as side to side motion though (X axis).

EDIT: oh yeah, meant to comment on your graphs above too. BIG difference!!!!


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> Keeping the BOSS for now
> 
> I only have two SLAPS units so far, so i will order 4 more to do that conversion. And i also have "just" 12 JBL’s in total, so i can’t do 8 in BOSS AND 12 in the VNF boxes.


You know they've made some more of them, right? What's another 8 to go along with what you already have? THey're almost all hidden. :devil:



Nalleh said:


> i like it from below and behind.


That's a quote to keep


----------



## SBuger

^^^ LOL ..now that's funny and yep a keeper for sure 

and yeah, heck what's another 8 x 12's in addition for more canti BOSS action, you've gone this far


----------



## chroman

Nalleh said:


> Updated the diagrams of the new setups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the LFE.


Been a big fan of your setup, do you happen to have a diagram of both AVRs (pre-outs, zones, etc) to see how everything is connected (similar to the diagram on first page with three AVRs)? I'm still wrapping my head around that. For context, I have a X8500H and I'm considering getting a cheap X6200W to expand the hardware limitation for more channels (Planning to do > 9.2.4). Thank you!


----------



## Nalleh

Kevnmin said:


> @Nallehh I'm glad you mentioned your experience with that because just as @SBuger mentioned, I did make the comment about wanting to try the X axis over in the Boss thread. Sounds like you're light years ahead in the TR realm of experiments. I believe I'll pass on the side to side thoughts now and continue to come up with my own version 2 -most likely more of the cantilever design rather than under seat.


Yeah, IMO X-axis is a bonus axis: if you get some action from it, fine. If not, no need to chase it 




SBuger said:


> Yes, but I'm talking about not something actually mounted to the side of you, I'm talking about maybe a BK underneath you but just mounted sideways, (not normal mounting and off to the side). Or even a driver or something. Make sense? May not be any good though, IDK. Could possible give too much X as well, again IDK. Was just a thought since you are master of experiment
> 
> When you had the BK mounted on the sides, you just had them mounted normal side up vertical right? Yes, I agree, pull to one side or the other is not good and seems out of balance if you can feel it (not good at all!). Not the same as side to side motion though (X axis).
> 
> EDIT: oh yeah, meant to comment on your graphs above too. BIG difference!!!!


Ok, i see what you mean now.

I don’t think i will be pursuing that subject 

Yes, the BK’s were mounted vertical.




DesertDog said:


> You know they've made some more of them, right? What's another 8 to go along with what you already have? THey're almost all hidden. :devil:
> 
> That's a quote to keep





SBuger said:


> ^^^ LOL ..now that's funny and yep a keeper for sure
> 
> and yeah, heck what's another 8 x 12's in addition for more canti BOSS action, you've gone this far


Yeah, sorry about that guys, i wrongly assumed a goal in sight, but will go on to search every webstore for MOAR JBL’s! NEED MOAR JBL’s.....


----------



## Nalleh

chroman said:


> Been a big fan of your setup, do you happen to have a diagram of both AVRs (pre-outs, zones, etc) to see how everything is connected (similar to the diagram on first page with three AVRs)? I'm still wrapping my head around that. For context, I have a X8500H and I'm considering getting a cheap X6200W to expand the hardware limitation for more channels (Planning to do > 9.2.4). Thank you!


Thanks 
I will look into it, but i seem to have problems using the program i used for the drawings. So we’ll see.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Yeah, IMO X-axis is a bonus axis: if you get some action from it, fine. If not, no need to chase it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, i see what you mean now.
> 
> I don’t think i will be pursuing that subject
> 
> Yes, the BK’s were mounted vertical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, sorry about that guys, i wrongly assumed a goal in sight, but will go on to search every webstore for MOAR JBL’s! NEED MOAR JBL’s.....


No need to be sorry man, we're just messin' with ya since your TR is already better than ours   

Also, no worries on the pursing more X axis moment with something mounted differently, was just throwing it out there since I think your were wanting to get as much (all) axis overlay as possible (if one is going to lag any, it always seems to be X). Like I was saying before, might suck, might not. But probably not something i'd be interested in messing with either with sideways mount. Especially since I dint know what to think about the feel, when I was getting a lot more X axis down real low there for a short while with a driver firing sideways.


----------



## chroman

Nalleh said:


> Thanks
> I will look into it, but i seem to have problems using the program i used for the drawings. So we’ll see.


 @Nalleh Thank you!

Question, I still do not fully understand how exactly the wide extraction works (AVR connection level), but a 9.1.4 system could be upgraded to 11.1.4 by adding an extra AVR configured as 5.1.4+Wides (w/ rears @110 degrees) so you get mixed sound from Surrounds/Rears? Does this need some kind of extraction?


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> No need to be sorry man, we're just messin' with ya since your TR is already better than ours
> 
> Also, no worries on the pursing more X axis moment with something mounted differently, was just throwing it out there since I think your were wanting to get as much (all) axis overlay as possible (if one is going to lag any, it always seems to be X). Like I was saying before, might suck, might not. But probably not something i'd be interested in messing with either with sideways mount. Especially since I dint know what to think about the feel, when I was getting a lot more X axis down real low there for a short while with a driver firing sideways.


No worries 

Yeah, the problem with X-axis is we have "no control" over it! The LFE channel is a mono channel, and as such can’t differentiate between left and right motion.

Now, the DBox is another matter completely, as it not only have complete control over motion in ALL three axis, but it also has a seperate encoded signal in the audiotrack, so it can control for example X-axis in accordance to what happens on screen, like a car chase and a left turn, by tilting the DBox plattform. If you look at demo videos on YouTube, it looks like quite a ride, LOL.

BUT SUPER EXPENSIVE !!!!


----------



## Nalleh

chroman said:


> @Nalleh Thank you!
> 
> Question, I still do not fully understand how exactly the wide extraction works (AVR connection level), but a 9.1.4 system could be upgraded to 11.1.4 by adding an extra AVR configured as 5.1.4+Wides (w/ rears @110 degrees) so you get mixed sound from Surrounds/Rears? Does this need some kind of extraction?


Yes, that is exactly as i do it now with just two AVR’s. One set up as 9.1.4 and the other as 5.1.4 +wides.


----------



## Nalleh

Time to get the whole couch in on the fun (poor right seat has just had MA’s for weeks now, LOL):

So got the second TR Sled in place to se how it fits.










Used some more 2x4 lumbar with metal plates/brackets(to save height). Should have thought about this expansion form the start 










Then i took it apart, and flipped it over to put some 3/4" board pieces to connect the underside.










It actually ended up VERY stiff. If i lift one corner, there is no give!! It lifts the whole plattform 

So now there is the (right side)BOSS and JBL/PR part of the TR Sled left to mount. Will do that tomorrow


----------



## BP1Fanatic

OMG! Keep up the insanity!


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, so today i can say i have completed the TR Sled project  The upgrade to 4JBL2SLAPS will get done, but no rush just yet. It is working just CRAAAZY as it is now, complete with both sides done, so i will relax and watch some movies 

So, 4x JBL BOSS done on the right seat. Never mind the messy wires, it is hidden in normal use 










Here is a better view of both sides.










Second JBL/PR done converted. Using just a blockout plate for this one too, easy enough to convert further down the line.










And mounted.










A LOT of firepower in this pic, LOL.

Per seat: 2xBK in front, 2x MA in the middle(2x2 stack on the left seat), 4x JBL cantilever BOSS and 2x JBL VNF box on top with SLAPS passive radiator downfiring for BOSS duty.

So basically double all that for the whole couch 










And what’s cool is with the couch in place, it is mostly hidden, LOL.
Stealth setup indeed 

Just ran trough some demo clips afterwards, and it is just bollocks!! Totally nuts with wooble, insanely sharp attack and displacement like no tomorrow. It’s got everything, and in spades, holy cow. Pretty stoked with the results, i must say


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Incredible!


----------



## SBuger

WOW, insanely cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fantastic job on getting both sleds built and connected!!! I can only imagine how insane that feels!!!

So with them connected, do you think its better then vs just one sled? Better or not, a bit different feel or no?


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> WOW, insanely cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Fantastic job on getting both sleds built and connected!!! I can only imagine how insane that feels!!!
> 
> So with them connected, do you think its better then vs just one sled? Better or not, a bit different feel or no?


Thanks man 

Yeah, it feels better now, the plattform is more stable and uniform. Probably because of how i split it before, since the centersection was not part of my seat, it only had the MA’s from the right seat, while now it has all of it. 
Only negative it is back to being jiggly when the other person moves in his seat. But since the plattform is a lot more rigid now, it isn’t as bad as before.

The whole ting is kind of heavy now thought, LOL. But the effect doesn’t seem lessened by it, on the contrary, it seems more planted and precise.

I tried to make a video of the SLAPS and BOSS moving, but it wasn’t very good. I thought they would be close to bottoming based on how it felt, but they didn’t move as much as i expected. Awsome ! 

Oh, and because of the weigth and the sticky isolators, i can no longer move the couch so my seat is in center when i watch alone, LOL. But i’ll get used to it 

All in all, this is the best setup of all the ones i have tested, and the difference is MASSIVE!!!!!!! It is not one step up from before, it is impoved in every way by a pretty big margin. 

Now that i have arrived at a sort of goal with the project, i still have some tweaking to do with final levels, EQ and delay on it all, i still think there is more in it, but that is icing on the cake


----------



## Nalleh

Here is the video anyway.

Bad focus, bad phone mic, and the noise is from the seat being unloaded and getting airlifted, LOL.

But you can still see the plattform moving

The clip is from the (newer) Poltergeist movie and with no BEQ.

https://i.imgur.com/o6PsmZN.mp4


----------



## Nalleh

Pics of the nearfield setup. Although not much is revealed, LOL.



















And my love for the NF’ish SI18" continue to grow, i love how they fill out and contributes to a fuller more weighty LFE sound, i run both of them from one channel of NU6K and the 4x BK on the other channel, and it seems plenty


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## BP1Fanatic

That's the way it should be, nice and stealth while delivering those body bLOWs!


----------



## SBuger

Wow man, you can't even really tell you have all that massive TR firepower under and behind by sight. Can just see a little bit of your VNFs if you really look. Yep, nice and stealth like BP1 said, while delivering the terror 

Cool your really liking the NFs, I know I really like mine too in the way that they contribute in their location. 

I did a little something different with my VNFs this weekend that seems to work great. I had been meaning to do it, but just never got it done. Didn't take long, so it was cool. I may post a pic of it in my thread when I get a chance.


----------



## rontalley

Nalleh said:


> Ok, so today i can say i have completed the TR Sled project  The upgrade to 4JBL2SLAPS will get done, but no rush just yet. It is working just CRAAAZY as it is now, complete with both sides done, so i will relax and watch some movies
> 
> So, 4x JBL BOSS done on the right seat. Never mind the messy wires, it is hidden in normal use
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a better view of both sides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second JBL/PR done converted. Using just a blockout plate for this one too, easy enough to convert further down the line.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And mounted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A LOT of firepower in this pic, LOL.
> 
> Per seat: 2xBK in front, 2x MA in the middle(2x2 stack on the left seat), 4x JBL cantilever BOSS and 2x JBL VNF box on top with SLAPS passive radiator downfiring for BOSS duty.
> 
> So basically double all that for the whole couch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And what’s cool is with the couch in place, it is mostly hidden, LOL.
> Stealth setup indeed
> 
> Just ran trough some demo clips afterwards, and it is just bollocks!! Totally nuts with wooble, insanely sharp attack and displacement like no tomorrow. It’s got everything, and in spades, holy cow. Pretty stoked with the results, i must say


 @Nalleh, Man I have a UM18-22 in a 4cuft box, a 12" Klipsch Sub and a AuraSound AST-2B-4 shaker on each chair and the bass is INSANE!!! How in the world are you managing all of those subs and tactile feedback! 

My wife would refuse to watch anything with me with all that bass!


----------



## Nalleh

Thanks guys 



BP1Fanatic said:


> That's the way it should be, nice and stealth while delivering those body bLOWs!


I know, right 
A lot of work and hours put into it, and almost impossible to see it, LOL.
But you will feel it 



SBuger said:


> Wow man, you can't even really tell you have all that massive TR firepower under and behind by sight. Can just see a little bit of your VNFs if you really look. Yep, nice and stealth like BP1 said, while delivering the terror
> 
> Cool your really liking the NFs, I know I really like mine too in the way that they contribute in their location.
> 
> I did a little something different with my VNFs this weekend that seems to work great. I had been meaning to do it, but just never got it done. Didn't take long, so it was cool. I may post a pic of it in my thread when I get a chance.


Yeah, NF’ish is another one of your ideas i have adopted, so thanks for that too I had it in the back of my head when i got them. Although they PROBABLY was a bit better as BOSS in the single digits because of the massive stroke, i still think the current setup is the best compromise, considering the extra height the VNF would have with them as BOSS.

However, IF i use them as BOSS, i COULD do the beforementioned 4JBL2PR boxes in combination with BOSS.....

It never ends.....

Dude! Now you HAVE to tell more about this VNF change you did! I am curious  Post pics in your thread please 



rontalley said:


> @Nalleh, Man I have a UM18-22 in a 4cuft box, a 12" Klipsch Sub and a AuraSound AST-2B-4 shaker on each chair and the bass is INSANE!!! How in the world are you managing all of those subs and tactile feedback!
> 
> My wife would refuse to watch anything with me with all that bass!


Well, first of all i am single(no wonder, right?), so no wife to consider, LOL.
But yeah this is bordering insanity, i’ll admit. But i just love to tinker, and always wonder: what if? And this last project was mostly done with gear i already had, just did a massive reconfiguring, and in that regard, the improvement is staggering 

And yeah, i didn’t start with this, my first venture into TR was some tiny, puny, cheap "Sinus Live BassPUMP" shakers, and i was hooked. Down the rabbit hole, you know.

But this complex setup isn’t exactly for newbies


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Yeah, NF’ish is another one of your ideas i have adopted, so thanks for that too I had it in the back of my head when i got them. Although they PROBABLY was a bit better as BOSS in the single digits because of the massive stroke, i still think the current setup is the best compromise, considering the extra height the VNF would have with them as BOSS.
> 
> However, IF i use them as BOSS, i COULD do the beforementioned 4JBL2PR boxes in combination with BOSS.....
> 
> It never ends.....
> 
> Dude! Now you HAVE to tell more about this VNF change you did! I am curious  Post pics in your thread please


LOL, isn't that the truth about it never ends hahahahaha

I said I was done the other day, but already changed a little something on the VNFs. It's not much of a change other than a lift mainly after trying a few different things, but made a hell of a diff in feel. Will post a bit about it here in a few or later tonight.


----------



## DesertDog

@Nalleh did you ever test the JBL+SLAPS without the BOSS riser? I'm thinking of doing my VNF boxes now and adding in the BOSS expansion later. So I'm wondering if it's work putting the SLAPS in right away or adding them when the BOSS expansion happens. I've also been toying with using 4 of the DIY Sound Group's Buyout 15" Subwoofer instead of 8 JBLs. Not much of a price difference with the JBLs not going on sale and the size will work a little better.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> @Nalleh did you ever test the JBL+SLAPS without the BOSS riser? I'm thinking of doing my VNF boxes now and adding in the BOSS expansion later. So I'm wondering if it's work putting the SLAPS in right away or adding them when the BOSS expansion happens. I've also been toying with using 4 of the DIY Sound Group's Buyout 15" Subwoofer instead of 8 JBLs. Not much of a price difference with the JBLs not going on sale and the size will work a little better.


Yes, but only in a frontfacing config. That was the first test i did with SLAPS, and i covered that earlier in the thread. It worked awsome like that too, just on the floor as a VNF, with much more TR in your back/ chest than the 4xJBL.
Sure you can build your VNF boxes now, just take into account how you will mount them later on the riser, so you don’t need to modify the boxes to do that.

Yeah, that 15" probably is a better choise, but at $150 a pop, that’s $600 for 4 drivers, while 8 JBL’s at ~$50 each is $400. And with that 15" you would probably use a 1:1 ratio of active vs passive driver, but with the numbers you speak of, that should be fine.
It doesn’t list Mms of that driver, but presumably it is more than the JBL, so it should be a great BOSS driver 
Do you have any plans/drawings of how it will look?

Edit: just realized the 15" wasn’t meant for BOSS duty, but for VNF  Nevertheless it should work awsome


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> Yes, but only in a frontfacing config. That was the first test i did with SLAPS, and i covered that earlier in the thread. It worked awsome like that too, just on the floor as a VNF, with much more TR in your back/ chest than the 4xJBL.
> Sure you can build your VNF boxes now, just take into account how you will mount them later on the riser, so you don’t need to modify the boxes to do that.
> 
> Yeah, that 15" probably is a better choise, but at $150 a pop, that’s $600 for 4 drivers, while 8 JBL’s at ~$50 each is $400. And with that 15" you would probably use a 1:1 ratio of active vs passive driver, but with the numbers you speak of, that should be fine.
> It doesn’t list Mms of that driver, but presumably it is more than the JBL, so it should be a great BOSS driver
> Do you have any plans/drawings of how it will look?
> 
> Edit: just realized the 15" wasn’t meant for BOSS duty, but for VNF  Nevertheless it should work awsome


Thanks! I already designed out the expansion with the 8 JBLs. It was going to be along the lines of the attached drawing. So what I was thinking of doing now is building the boxes and the the legs to have it behind the couch. Then when I want to pull apart the BOSS and expand it I can attach it to the platform.

I haven't redone it for the 15s yet. But what they'll allow me to do is cut 10" off of the length of it to match the couch size. That's one of the things drawing me to go with the 15". I didn't like the 5" outcropping on each side of the couch. I'll also be able to position it so that each of the seating positions has a 15 firing directly into it. The 12s don't match up directly. 

The Xmax on them is 14.25 mm. That's a Vd of 1173.77 cm^3 which is just under half of a SLAPS (2453cm3) so I was figuring 1:1 with them vs 2:1 with the JBLs (666cm3). So 4 SLAPS either way.


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## Nalleh

^^ Great! Looks like you have it all under control Make it so !

"Approved by the TR King"


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## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Great! Looks like you have it all under control Make it so !
> 
> "Approved by the TR King"


We need to make a seal with that for you so that you can stamp our stuff.


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## Nalleh

Nothing major going on here these days, just enjoying watching movies  I am just in awe of how incredible it all works together now, so it is just plug and play 

A couple of small teething problems has surfaced. The screws i use on each side of the MA’s to keep them from moving, sometimes make a squeeky sound, and the right side BOSS sometimes have a little rattle at around 50hz. No biggie though.

But i am about to leave for 4 weeks vacation, so i will look into it after that


----------



## SBuger

Awesome!! Yeah, you’ve got your TR config nailed down and all working together great now huh!! A few little noises here and there will be an easy fix for you I’m sure when you get back.

Speaking of, wow 4 weeks!? That ought to be a great vaca!! But can you survive being away from that wicked cool system of yours for that long?? hahahaha

I’ve been away from mine for about 4 days this week and can hardly wait to get back to it LOL. A get away is great though for many reasons and can make one appreciate their system even more once you get back to it though 

Cool on your movie watching! I’ve been enjoying quite a few lately too with the new config. Nice to have them working like we want huh


----------



## Nalleh

^^^Yeah, after the last tweaks i did with the compressors and levels, i basically haven’t touched the setup! It just flat out works, which is just awsome 

Yes, i have three weeks vacation, and since i work a shift cycle, my week off comes the week before the vacation weeks, so yeah: 4 weeks! I’ll be visiting my folks, so that will be nice 

I will miss my HT for sure! It is torture, LOL, but as you say a time apart makes one appreciate it more when i am back, and it will be nice with a break from work 

Indeed, watching movies is the point of doing this, so it is awsome to be able to just sit back and press PLAY 

So, even if i will be around, it wouldn’t be to much updates in the thread.

But "I’ll be back"


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## Nalleh

I’m back 

Had a great time on vacation  Me and my brother drives home to my folks each summer, it’s about a 1000 miles each way, and we pretty much drives straight trough, so ~24 hours on the road. Quite the trip, but lovely driving trough the country in the summer 

A couple pics. View from my folks place.










And from our cabin in the mountains.


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## Nalleh

Back on topic:

I have managed to see Alita Battle Angel 3 times lately !! LOVE that movie, the visuals, the action, the story, Atmos, ULF, all of it, just awsome movie. A bit of Fifth Element and Ready Player One vibe from it, which is cool because i love those too 

I got the disc while still on vaca, and couldn’t wait, so a TV viewing and 5.1 DD in 2D BD it was  Second time back home with UHD, Atmos and BEQ. WOW, just WOW, it was nirvana.

And lastly i watched the 3D version with DTS-HD and Neural-X. Atmos was clearly better, but it was still pretty good. But the 3D was VERY nicely done, i love 3D when it is done right, and this was. I would argue that 3D is better than UHD! Man it just is so much more immersive, i am stunned over and over again, just awsome 

Normally i just run the 2D and 3D BD’s in the same chain as UHD, from the OPPO 203 to my AVR, but i have a Darbee and a Marseille Mcable, which i feel contribute to a better picture, but they aren’t HDCP 2.2 compatible, so i can’t connect them in the same way from the OPPO.










But i also have a HDFury Integral i no longer use, and thought i could use it to get both ways. So i connected the HDMI from the OPPO to input1 on the HDFury and then output1 to the input on my AVR i use for UHD.
And sent output2 from the HDFury to the Darbee and then the Marseille, on to a DIFFERENT input on my AVR for 2D and 3D BD viewing.
So if i watch UHD, i chose the UHD input, and if i watch 2D/3D i chose that input, and the HDFury does the switching.

And it worked !! So now i got the benefit of Darbee AND Marseille when i watched Alita in 3D, and it is truly a amazing picture!

I have tried and tested a million versions before to get this to work, but no luck. This time i did it BEFORE the AVR, and Voila !

The HDFury adds a bit of HDMI sync time when starting up, but i can live with that


----------



## Sekosche

Welcome back! That scenery looks like a great place to vacation.

How do you like your Darbee? I read a lot of good things about it a while back, but never got around to trying one but I forget why. Improved sharpness for video games would be a plus, but I don’t like my movies overly sharp. I just had a channel on my Atmos amp go out so have to grab one of those first, but might pic up a Darbee too in the meantime. Figure if I’m going to only be using a 1080p PJ for the next couple years, might as well make the most of it.


----------



## Nalleh

Sekosche said:


> Welcome back! That scenery looks like a great place to vacation.
> 
> How do you like your Darbee? I read a lot of good things about it a while back, but never got around to trying one but I forget why. Improved sharpness for video games would be a plus, but I don’t like my movies overly sharp. I just had a channel on my Atmos amp go out so have to grab one of those first, but might pic up a Darbee too in the meantime. Figure if I’m going to only be using a 1080p PJ for the next couple years, might as well make the most of it.


Thanks 

I love what the Darbee does, i have had it for years, but i guess about a year ago, it went dead(the earlier see-through-body version), so i got the newer metal body version. This one looks and feel much more professional, and has a better remote, but it functions the same. But yeah, it works on all sources, even 3D, so for everything EXCEPT UHD, i would recommend it, for sure  As you say, if you have 1080P only, this makes it somewhat closer to UHD, kind of 
And yeah, if you turn up the knobs too much, it will look bad, but it’s totally adjustable, and has a very cool demo function, so you can easy see the difference, While you to tune it to your preference.
And it seems to work well with the Mcable too, so the performance of my 1080P is as good as possible.

I got them both from Amazon


----------



## SBuger

Yeah welcome back, and beautiful scenery on your vaca!!!

Nice on Alita, I had a feeling you would LOVE it!!!! 

Also, way cool on the 3D and Darbee. Smart with the Darbee and HD Fury!! I also have both and will have to try it if I find sharpness lacking. I still haven't tried 3D yet on the new PJ, but one of the things Im loving most about it is its sharpness in 2D. In fact, I had to back it down just a bit last night on Altered Carbon and Thor Ragnarok LOL We'll see how it does with 3D when I get a chance. I used to love my Darbee with my previous 5030 PJ for 2D and 3D. Ive always found that 3D seems to handle more aggressive sharpness settings better than 2D as well and can make a real nice diff. 

@Sekosche – yep the Darbee can be really good!!!


----------



## Nalleh

^^ You haven’t tried 3D yet ??? What’sa matter with you, you need to try it man! That’s like buying a new car, and only drive it in first gear!! 

Do a test: first play a couple scenes from Alita (or the chase scene in TFA) with the UHD disc, and then switch to the 3D version. Never mind the sound, concentrate on the pic, and immersiveness....

I am torned between what i like most.....proper 3D is insanely cool IMO 

And yeah, i agree on that last bit, 3D does seem to handle more sharpness, the sharper it is, the more it pops


----------



## SBuger

LOL for sure, what up with that right!!?!! A couple reasons I haven’t tried the 3D yet I think.: I’ve been so infatuated with the UHD stuff and getting it all tweaked to my liking (that took a while as I think I tried every user settings and custom gamma there is from the 5040 thread, and finally settling on a tweaked version of one of them), and once I did, I’ve been spending most of my time checking out lots of different UHD stuff (actual blu ray disc and or lossless MKV, as well as the Netflix stuff now, plus the games). I’m still in AWE I think and basking in it , and just haven’t made it to 3D yet, even though I’ve got my glasses all charged up LOL. There are still a couple games I haven’t even checked out yet as well that I’m super excited about. 

Honestly, I think in the back of my mind I know that the new PJ and stuff was probably my last upgrade to the HT for a long time and I’m just kinda taking my time enjoying it and taking it in every small step of the way, and is still giving me something to very much look forward to with the 3D stuff LOL. I know that’s kind of crazy, but I think that’s what’s going on here hahahahaha

But yeah I need to get with it soon, as I totally get what your saying about “which one do you like most”, as I’ve been a HUGE 3D fan and have watched tons of stuff that way with my last PJ (and in both setups, previously downstairs and up in the new room). 

Really good quality 3D can be absolutely amazing on a huge screen IMO and is so much fun!!! Really looking forward to checking out the ones you mentioned, as well as some of my all-time favorites for 3D like Avatar, Pacific Rim, Ghost in the Shell, Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them etc 

Plus there are some recommended settings on this 5040 for the 3D stuff as well that I’m sure I’ll have a heyday with LOL. For some reason, just like my Bass and TR, I always think I have to tweak everything to the max to make sure I feel like I’m getting the most put of it. Fortunately, I think I enjoy this part of it too


----------



## Nalleh

Ahh yes, you mean that UHD is the dinner, and you are saving the 3D for dessert, LOL. Got it 
Yeah, i understand you are having fun with your new toy, always fun to check out all new gadgets 

I think still to this day, Avatar is my favourite 3D movie, man when they are in the jungle, it is insanely cool all the popout effects! My jaw drops evertime i see that one.

Well, i can’t wait to hear your impressions when you finally test out your 3D movies


----------



## Sekosche

*My 11.4.12 &quot;Franken-Atmos&quot; living room.*



Nalleh said:


> I love what the Darbee does, i have had it for years, but i guess about a year ago, it went dead(the earlier see-through-body version), so i got the newer metal body version. This one looks and feel much more professional, and has a better remote, but it functions the same.





SBuger said:


> I used to love my Darbee with my previous 5030 PJ for 2D and 3D. Ive always found that 3D seems to handle more aggressive sharpness settings better than 2D as well and can make a real nice diff.
> 
> 
> 
> @Sekosche – yep the Darbee can be really good!!!


Thanks for the feedback!

So while it was on my mind, I ordered a Darbee, and it’ll be here Wednesday. Also, I should have the new nearfield sub up and running later today or tomorrow at the latest, so it’s an awesome week for home theater shenanigans! I’ve got 4 days off work too, most of which I can spend with the new toys, woohoo.

I really need to spend some time dialing everything in from scratch again with REW, been a long while. I especially want to try some negative high shelf filters for the BOSS, Crowsons, and the miniDSP compression feature, work on better timing of TR devices, etc., but I usually want to just do a quick calibration and get into some demo content and then never really go back to tweak things other than gain settings.


----------



## Nalleh

Sekosche said:


> Thanks for the feedback!
> 
> So while it was on my mind, I ordered a Darbee, and it’ll be here Wednesday. Also, I should have the new nearfield sub up and running later today or tomorrow at the latest, so it’s an awesome week for home theater shenanigans! I’ve got 4 days off work too, most of which I can spend with the new toys, woohoo.
> 
> I really need to spend some time dialing everything in from scratch again with REW, been a long while. I especially want to try some negative high shelf filters for the BOSS, Crowsons, and the miniDSP compression feature, work on better timing of TR devices, etc., but I usually want to just do a quick calibration and get into some demo content and then never really go back to tweak things other than gain settings.


Awsome! Sounds like good times ahead  Please update us about your new NF’s in your thread 
Yeah, doing some setup could be really beneficial when new items are in the mix. I feel like i HAVE to do that before i can start to enjoy content. Or else i would just sit there and listen while wondering: does that sound optimal/feel right? I am a bit OCD about that, so i need to do REW/VS and such first, to have a baseline, so to speak.

I am excited to hear how your new NF sounds? It should be a animal


----------



## Sekosche

*My 11.4.12 &quot;Franken-Atmos&quot; living room.*

Edit: resolved, got the Darbee working with all sources, have to hook it up right before the PJ and leave it up high on the shelf, bit of a pain but oh well.

Got the nearfield sub setup nicely, but less luck with the Darbee cooperating. I can only get it working between individual sources, like a Roku before the AVR (HD streaming looks excellent with it), but using the AVR video out to the PJ I get no output at all. I have all the AVR outputs set to only 1080p with no upscaling at all, so thinking it might just be my long 50’ cable run, though I’ve read of others with no issues here. 

I actually had to upgrade my cable when I added this PJ, as it would only pass audio with the previous cable, even though it’s the same HDMI tech and resolution as the previous PJ. A last ditch effort today is to add the Darbee right before the PJ and leave it up on the shelf above me if it works. More of a pain, because I’ll have to run an extension power cord up there too.

Did y’all have any issues getting the Darbee to pass video? I’ve read quite a few people have had trouble, but most get it figured out eventually.


----------



## Nalleh

Great to hear you solved the issue. Haven’t had any such problems, but then again i don’t have that long HDMI cables, which sounds like it were the culprit.

HDMI in general and HDMI cables in spesific is a nightmare, it is completely unbelievable that a whole industri is satisfied with such a POS!!


----------



## Nalleh

Did a little fix today, and while i was "in there", i took some pics of the completed TR Sleds. Mentioned earlier a little squeeky noise from the MA’s. It’s coming from the screws i use around the MA’s to prevent them from moving, so i just put some rubber hose over the screws 

Here is a low shot of one sled.










Here is one with the MDF sheet(it is pretty hacked up by now, LOL) the seats are on top of.










And without the MDF sheet.










Also, lately i have been running the more correct 9.1.6 setup, but yesterday i went back to the more bonkers 13.1.8, and i just have to admit it is more fun More open, bigger, more seamless. The room and the speakers simply disappear 

Got Captein Marvel in the mail today, so i’ll enjoy that one this weekend


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Looks AWESOME!


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## SBuger

^^^ Nice pics and looks awesome, I never get tired of seeing that insane TR rig   

Also, way cool about you changing back to your 13.1.8. Yeah man, I bet that sounds insanely good and soooooo immersive!!!!

I think you’re really gonna like Captain Marvel on that rig of yours!!! I thought it was pretty fantastic on all levels. I’ve seen it a couple times already and even use a few scenes for demo now. It’s good stuff 



Nalleh said:


> Ahh yes, you mean that UHD is the dinner, and you are saving the 3D for dessert, LOL. Got it
> Yeah, i understand you are having fun with your new toy, always fun to check out all new gadgets
> 
> I think still to this day, Avatar is my favourite 3D movie, man when they are in the jungle, it is insanely cool all the popout effects! My jaw drops evertime i see that one.
> 
> Well, i can’t wait to hear your impressions when you finally test out your 3D movies


LOL, Exactly  

I TOTALLY agree with you on the Avatar 3D and is still my favorite as well. Its effects are insane in that jungle scene!!! I always feel like I could easily touch the foliage and need to duck out of the way, so the branches and stuff don’t get me in that jungle scene  Can’t wait till Cameron comes out with the next 3-4 sequels last I heard he was working on 3 of them and was supposed to be released in the near future, then I read about setbacks again. So, who knows, but when they do eventually come out though, I’m sure they be as good PQ and 3D wise as the first, probably even better, plus hopefully they include the Atmos track on the disc as well this time!!!

So, I was going to check out Avatar 3D last night on the new PJ, but glasses were dead already. It was already like 2 in morning so just shut it all down. Will try to update my thread about it all this week maybe. Ive been watching a lot of stuff lately between Netflix and UHD blu-ray and been thoroughly enjoying it all  In fact I've been kind of taking a break from posting as much because of it I think lol


----------



## Kevnmin

Hey there @Nalleh The sleds look off the hook! So commanding in a sense, more like a futuristic car you'd ride in at an amusement park.

I'm working at dialing in BK LFE into my system and working to prevent the clanging/bottoming in the ULF area. I've got the compressor turned on in my 2x4HD and set fairly good on the output line to the BK so it doesnt clang up around the 25 hz range when I was testing with *Greatest Showman* beginning song. I was hoping that would be enough to keep it from clanging down low, but quickly learned not so. I learned that when running some sweeps to get timing right for TR with all components. The BK certainly doesnt like things down super low in the hz range. So I quickly copied what @SBuger had mentioned to me about a negative low shelf at 12 hz. It worked like a champ. Or so I thought.
I've still got more tweaks to address though since the last two flicks we spun up were *The Nun* and *Aquaman*. Both movies I had to back my MV down to -27 or so to avoid the clanging during a few scenes. Maybe it's just my system and how its setup, I dont know, more tweaks at any rate.

I remember you saying a while back you changed from the negative low shelf with your BK's to instead just using the compressor to avoid bottoming, is that still the case in your setup?


----------



## Nalleh

Kevnmin said:


> Hey there @Nalleh The sleds look off the hook! So commanding in a sense, more like a futuristic car you'd ride in at an amusement park.
> 
> I'm working at dialing in BK LFE into my system and working to prevent the clanging/bottoming in the ULF area. I've got the compressor turned on in my 2x4HD and set fairly good on the output line to the BK so it doesnt clang up around the 25 hz range when I was testing with *Greatest Showman* beginning song. I was hoping that would be enough to keep it from clanging down low, but quickly learned not so. I learned that when running some sweeps to get timing right for TR with all components. The BK certainly doesnt like things down super low in the hz range. So I quickly copied what @SBuger had mentioned to me about a negative low shelf at 12 hz. It worked like a champ. Or so I thought.
> I've still got more tweaks to address though since the last two flicks we spun up were *The Nun* and *Aquaman*. Both movies I had to back my MV down to -27 or so to avoid the clanging during a few scenes. Maybe it's just my system and how its setup, I dont know, more tweaks at any rate.
> 
> I remember you saying a while back you changed from the negative low shelf with your BK's to instead just using the compressor to avoid bottoming, is that still the case in your setup?



Thanks 

Yes, there are several ways of doing it, a ~12hz HPF, a 12-17hz negative LS, or the compressor. I have tried them all, and ended up using the compressor. I am now at -26dB and a ratio of 4, and that seems to work very well. Heck, i even have a low shelf on them now, LOL.

What you need to do is test with content that makes them clack, in your case Nun and Aquaman sounds like good ones. Use the clips that brings the clack and try upping the setting as you play it. You can start at lower MV setting to ease into it.

I am still amazed at how good the compressor works, as i have watched a lot of films lately and it allworks extremly well, just pure ULF TR and wobbles 

I saw Captein Marvel this weekend and i loved it ! It had it all: awsome picture, awsome Atmos, awsome action, and awsome ULF. 
And i loved seeing a young version of Fury, LOL. How he ended up with one eye was hilarious, LOL, bevare of the flerken, HAHA.
I will watch this several times, no dought 

Oh, and the fix for my squeeky MA’s worked like a charm


----------



## Nalleh

Also, just for fun i did a couple of compression sweeps(subs only) the other day. The Umik maxes out at ~120dB, so it won’t go higher, but ok.

First one is just the 2x SI18’ i have NF’ish, and both these are on just one channel of NU6K. Pretty much 110dB down to 10hz.










Here is both sonos only. ~120dB down to 9hz.










And all subs. And since the Umik tapped out, it is same max dB, but i had 7dB lower MV on the AVR when that happened. So while i reached 120dB at MV -6dB with the 2 sonos, i reached the same level with all subs playing at MV -13.










(The lowest sweeps are 5dB increments, while the 3 highest ones is 3dB pr.)
Oh, and i forgot to disable HPF/LPF, but higher up it doesn’t matter, as i have them all EQ’ed down above ~30hz.


----------



## Kevnmin

Nalleh said:


> Yes, there are several ways of doing it, a ~12hz HPF, a 12-17hz negative LS, or the compressor. I have tried them all, and ended up using the compressor. I am now at -26dB and a ratio of 4, and that seems to work very well. Heck, i even have a low shelf on them now, LOL.


Good info and just to clarify, for your BK's you're using compressor + LS?

Interesting you're compressor is at -26. I have mine at -34 and it still was clanging. I have my attack and release at 25 ms. The 2x4HD doesnt have a hold setting. I'm wondering if I need to increase the release time?

Its been a long while since I've ran audy - long before the BOSS even. Off the top of my head I dont think my sub trim in the AVR is any higher than -6. Audy set at at -11, but being a bass geek it wasn't enough. 
As I'm sitting here thinking, I've got DEQ enabled @ -15 in the Denon, which of course listening at my normal -20/-25 MV, is still giving another 3-5 db boost beside the 5 db gain after audy   
I keep telling myself to turn off DEQ now all the TR components but I get too anxious when I fire everything up. Just going for the plug and play and plain forget to turn it off. 

I've still got to get Captain Marvel added to the collection. Excited to see it. Hell, I'm excited to see a crap ton of the marvel flicks. Most of mine are all still in wrap. If time only grew on trees..


----------



## Nalleh

Kevnmin said:


> Good info and just to clarify, for your BK's you're using compressor + LS?
> 
> Interesting you're compressor is at -26. I have mine at -34 and it still was clanging. I have my attack and release at 25 ms. The 2x4HD doesnt have a hold setting. I'm wondering if I need to increase the release time?
> 
> Its been a long while since I've ran audy - long before the BOSS even. Off the top of my head I dont think my sub trim in the AVR is any higher than -6. Audy set at at -11, but being a bass geek it wasn't enough.
> As I'm sitting here thinking, I've got DEQ enabled @ -15 in the Denon, which of course listening at my normal -20/-25 MV, is still giving another 3-5 db boost beside the 5 db gain after audy
> I keep telling myself to turn off DEQ now all the TR components but I get too anxious when I fire everything up. Just going for the plug and play and plain forget to turn it off.
> 
> I've still got to get Captain Marvel added to the collection. Excited to see it. Hell, I'm excited to see a crap ton of the marvel flicks. Most of mine are all still in wrap. If time only grew on trees..


Yup, compressor + LS. What i discovered was that the clanking is centered between 8-9hz and up to 15-17hz. Below 8-9hz it can actually take A LOT more before it clanks, so before i found the compressor i used a negative PEQ around 11hz and then a LS at 10hz to reduce the area around 10-17hz but boost below that. And it worked 

But did you get the "mod" i did to my BK’s earlier? I read about someone doing this earlier, so i opened them up, easy enough with 4 screws, and then put some rubber feet on each end so they don’t bottom as hard. There WAS actually some rubber on each end of the piston inside, but doing this changed the clanking from a very sharp, scary sound to a much more soft sound, like a rubber mallet. This help a lot and kind of acted as a compressor in itself.

Also, what i did to trace the clanking was using REW and then playing a reverse sine sweep from ~40hz and down to 5hz repeatedly while increasing the level. When it started to clank, i set a negative LS there, and continued while increasing the LS. I did this to a little above my normal listening level to have some headroom, and this was how i used it until the compressor 

I would recommend doing this to find the problem area, and you could also try a negative, narrow PEQ in this area.
If you notice a spesific timestamp in a movie with problems, go to the BEQ thread and find that movie and look at the heatmap at that timestamp to find what frequenzy that sound is.

But on the compressor i also increased the ratio parameter, i believe the default was 2 or something to a more "stop-like" 4.

Could you give a quick run trough of your setup: how many BK’s, amp, level on that output in Minidsp, etc?

I now run all 4 BK’s of ONE channel of NU6K (4ohm), whereas before i ran 2 on each channel(8ohms), and it seems plenty, but i think somhow the clanking is less of a problem now with the new TR sleds. I believe it is because the sleds are so much more stable and stiff, while providing consistent movement via the isolators for the whole couch as one unit.


----------



## Kevnmin

Nalleh said:


> Could you give a quick run trough of your setup: how many BK’s, amp, level on that output in Minidsp, etc?


Attached is quick hand written and scanned routing of subwoofer outputs coming from the X6200. 
Basically single output out from AVR(-6 db trim) to 2x4 miniHD. 
Two outputs with 0 db gain from mini feed 4 subwoofers. 
One line out from mini with +2 db gain splits to multi channel inputs on 7 channel Sony ES4300(100 watts/channel), it then powers the 2 shakers(+5db trim), 4 boss JBL's(+3.5 db trim) and a single BK Advance(+7.5 db trim).
The last output from mini has zero gain and feeds into the multi channel sub in on the sony. Then from sub out on sony(-1.5 trim), the line feeds a Buttkicker BKA300-4 amp(full volume) which in turn powers a single BK LFE. I know I dont have to run this line through the sony, but I do so I can have the same timing as all other TR components.

Its a work in progress setup till an Inuke comes into play. Eventual plan is a 3000dsp to feed boss drivers(8 in time) from one channel and then two LFE BK's off the other channel. I may not even need the Aura shakers any more at that time, they most likely will be overpowered by everything else. Oh, I shouldn't forget even further down the road a set of Crowsons.

Just for more info, here is link to a post where I shared graphs after my last calibration to show sub performance.
 HERE  As you can see Audy is more or less bring down peaks from 30-60 hz. No real boost. My only boost would be the 5 db trim from -11 to -6 in the Denon, and of course the boost from DEQ.

I had no idea about opening up the LFE device and adding some additional rubber stops. Ingenious. Also I really appreciate your step by step suggestions of how to prevent/eliminate problem frequencies.


----------



## Nalleh

@Kevnmin: Thanks for the detailed reply, and may i say: WOW, what a setup! There is a lot going on there, LOL, and very nicely done on your FR curve ! Looks amazing 

Ok, so you have just 1 BK LFE + 1 BK advance(much smaller). That may be the problem, as you end up running the single BK LFE to hard. Not to worrie, they are indestructable, but that may explain why it is bottoming out. I noticed that when i went from 2 BK’s to 4 of them, that i didn’t need to run them as hard.

But still, you should be able to get rid of the clanking. As i said, my guess would be that the problem area is around 10-17hz , so if you can get that confirmed, then you can just use one of the methods above to decrease the output in that area.

As you experienced, it might not be enough the first time you tune it, as each movie has different LFE tracks, so you might need to give it more tries.
And there is no reason you can’t combine the compressor and a negative LS.

For example in your latest test, The Nun or Auqaman, if you try again without the LS (or if you used the compressor), is it worse ?

As in: did the solution you tried help at all, or was there no difference?
If you used the negative LS and it was no difference with or without it, then that might not be a viable solution. And you might be better of with a HPF, or a more aggresive compressor setting(or a more agressive LS settingfor that matter).

It is all a bit of trial and error, but if you have some movie clips that you know have these problems those might help honing in on the source of the problem.


----------



## Kevnmin

Thank you for the words of encouragement to keep trying till I get it. In addition thanks for the tips with known problem frequencies. It gives me a quicker place to start from.
I will say I for sure like the more defined wobble the BK's are adding. They really let you know about the movement. I imagine the Crowsons are the same, but on another plane being as they're digging well below 10 hz.

By the way, I re-read your post from the subwoofer compression tests you were doing the other day. I was wondering how your house held up to the violence at 120 db at 10 hz. I imagined a scene from Hurricane Heist where the housing is being blown and ripped apart.


----------



## Nalleh

Kevnmin said:


> Thank you for the words of encouragement to keep trying till I get it. In addition thanks for the tips with known problem frequencies. It gives me a quicker place to start from.
> I will say I for sure like the more defined wobble the BK's are adding. They really let you know about the movement. I imagine the Crowsons are the same, but on another plane being as they're digging well below 10 hz.
> 
> By the way, I re-read your post from the subwoofer compression tests you were doing the other day. I was wondering how your house held up to the violence at 120 db at 10 hz. I imagined a scene from Hurricane Heist where the housing is being blown and ripped apart.



No worries  I know what the BK’s are capable of, and want others to experience that too 
Awsome that you already can feel their wobble, and i agree, you can feel the difference between them.

Well, the house is still standing, LOL, but it sure is making noises during the most ULF heavy scenes


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## Nalleh

Wacthed Aquaman last night... HOLY COW that movie is intense, LOL. AWSOME Atmos, really sharp and nice picture and generally cool action. And with BEQ it just pounds you, so many cool LFE and ULF effects on this one and it goes deeep, with lots of wobbles, so fun.

Took a quick pic while watching 










Fun fact: with my temp sensors on my Crowsons, i can set temp alarms(sensor are made for barbequeing, LOL), so i have a alarm set at 100˚F. This is no where near dangerous, the temp overload circuit on the Crowson are at 160˚F, but i just wanted a notice if they started heating up.

While watching Aquaman the alarm went off!.......twice!...... that is saying something, and i have only had that happen once before: during the first scene in Overlord, which is about 10 minutes of insane ULF pounding, LOL.

The reason is in both those movie there are prolonged scenes of just insane ULF, minutes and more, and that just heats up everything. Luckily in both movies, the alarm went off just at the end of those scenes, and as i said, it was no where near the limit, but just shows that they have A LOT of content down low 

So i think i will adjust the alarm setting to 110˚F and then it should not go off 

Here is the temp graph from when i watched Overlord, look at how the temp spikes during that intense first scene. And as you can see, the rest of the movie the temp was fine 










(Temps are in Celsius, but you get the picture )


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## SBuger

^^ NICE!! Yeah man, Aquaman brings the goods big time in all areas and is such a good time!!    

And that red head .... Damn nice pic BTW bro!!! Gorgeous!! Aquaman has some insane graphics in a lot of scenes huh!!

And the BASS, just for starters, I love the intro and when she's jacking those dudes with her sphere (hits ya so hard), then the aquarium underwater stuff (so weighty and wobbly), then the shark hits ..woah, then the journey out to the sub (crazy ULF wobbles and weight again). Ive demoed this IDK how many times now and just never gets old LOL

Nice temp gauge you got going there for your MAs!!


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## Nalleh

^^ Yeah, i was just going to edit and mention those scenes you talked about, insane wobble, and on that last one i can juuust barely hear my BK’s bottoming out, LOL, that scene is just off the charts with what i guess have to be single digits  But they bottom out so gently, it is almost like it’s supposed to be like that  That is the Minidsp compressor working it’s magic 

Oh yeah the graphics man, all scenes underwater is just breathtaking and your jaw just drops repeatedly while watching.

I got the 4K/3D combo on that one, so i think i need to let the next viewing be the 3D version, as i suspect those underwater scenes will be insane in 3D


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, so remember i put the HDFury into action again earlier. Well, my Integral was the first gen version, and it has had a few glitches since the get go. And now these came back.

So i went on the HDFury website to see if i could find something better, like a Vertex, or something.

Well, i ended up with a Vertex2, a even newer and more improved version than Vertex, and it only took 6 days from i ordered until i got it, all the way up in Norway. Man they ship fast!

And this beaty was on another level, so much more sturdy and it ouzzes quality, and the little OLED screen is really cool 

This new one solved several problems.

First of all it worked flawless with my earlier idea about splitting UHD and 2D/3D BD(for including the Darbee and Mcable), same as i did with the Integral.

And it solved the Dolby Atmos MAT issue, where i couldn’t use my dual Atmos AVR’s on Netflix and ATV4K, as it somehow reverted to multichannel 7.1 as soon as i turned on AVR nr2. Not anymore, all sources work with full FrankenAtmos.

It has 3!! HDMI outputs, 2 for up to 4K full spec, and one for audio only full spec. So now instead of going through the Denon 8500 and via Zone2 HDMI to my second AVR, i simply use the third Vertex HDMI output to my second AVR for sound. Much smoother.

It has 4!! HDMI inputs, so now i connected all sources to the Vertex2 and then on to the Denon 8500. This way i can get full on-screen info about every source regarding 4K details.

And it switches automatically between the active inputs ! I am so impressed with this little gadget, it just simply works! And simplifies the use of my setup. Awsome 

And it is now all programmed into my Harmony


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## SBuger

^^^ Way cool!! Awesome to have that little screen too!!


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## BP1Fanatic

I need to put the Vertex2 on my xmas list!

Nalleh, could you please draw up your system's connection diagram with the HDfury Vertex2? I was hoping the PDF would give some specific connections between TV, game console, blu-ray player, cable box, and AVR.


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## Nalleh

BP1Fanatic said:


> I need to put the Vertex2 on my xmas list!
> 
> Nalleh, could you please draw up your system's connection diagram with the HDfury Vertex2? I was hoping the PDF would give some specific connections between TV, game console, blu-ray player, cable box, and AVR.



Here is how i connected it.










So i put it between the sources and the AVR. I think the more common way is after the AVR, but if so, i can’t use the audio out, since the HDMI out’s from AVR is picture only, no sound. And the audio out from Vertex2 goes to my second Atmos AVR for use in my FrankenAtmos setup.

No matter, it works as intended this way too, so no worries.


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## BP1Fanatic

Thanks guy! Excellent setup!


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## Nalleh

More stuff 

A stack of SLAPS have arrived 










Whoo-hoo


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## BP1Fanatic

Wow!


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## Nalleh

Just to reiterate my thought about the SLAPS:




Nalleh said:


> Hmm, just a week in, and i am already planning upgrades, LOL !
> 
> Ok, so a i have now loaded my TR Sled with(amongst other) a 4xJBL cantilever BOSS + the 2xJBL+1x PR VNF/BOSS box on top of that. And it works awsome.
> 
> But somehow it just seems i have more gas in the tank....i still feel using 8 total JBL’s pumping free air, seems like a waste, altough it works great for TR, and then i end up with just 2 VNF boxes with "just" 4x JBL’s total(+2x PR) for NF SPL.
> 
> So the Pr setup i use now is:
> 
> 2x 4cf NF boxes each with 2xJBL +1 x downfiring SLAPS M12. MMS for BOSS action= 544 x 2= 1088grams.
> 
> And then 8x JBL total in cantilever BOSS. MMS= 179 x 8=1432grams
> 
> = 2520grams total MMS for the whole couch.
> 
> What i am thinking is:
> 
> Use the 3x NF boxes each with 4xJBL as i had it from the start, only adding 2x SLAPS m12 downfiring in each box, so MMS=544 x 6= 3262 gram TOTAL (no BOSS).
> 
> This way i will get more MMS for better BOSS function, AND still have all the 12x12" JBL’s for VNF duty making SPL. Plus the added low end from the 6x SLAPS.
> 
> The WINisd looks rather similar for the 2xJBL+1xPR as it does for the 4xJBL+2xPR, only more midbass for the latter, but no disadvantages.
> 
> Yellow is 4x sealed, blue is 2+1PR, and red is 4+2PR. Both active and passive drivers behave similar in both PR setups, stroke wise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And instead of 1 xPR working at ~60-80mm stroke, i will have 2 per box!
> 
> Sounds like a no-brainer in my brain


So, according to Winisd, doubling the drivers and PR’s in the same box will behave pretty much similar, the stroke of both driver and PR will be the same, so it will be 6 SLAPS pounding instead of just the 2 i have now.


----------



## Sekosche

Noooooyice! It’ll be a TR-PR rocket powered sled now.


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## BP1Fanatic

Right!


----------



## Nalleh

My poor nearfield boxxes now has more holes in them than swiss cheese


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## dgrizzard

Nalleh said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> My poor nearfield boxxes now has more holes in them than swiss cheese



Can you explain in laymen terms what the slaps do and how they effect your VNF? I'm thinking about building a similar VNF after I upgrade my far field subs so I'm curious of I should do slaps or not.


----------



## Nalleh

dgrizzard said:


> Can you explain in laymen terms what the slaps do and how they effect your VNF? I'm thinking about building a similar VNF after I upgrade my far field subs so I'm curious of I should do slaps or not.


Well, passive radiator surve the same purpose as porting a sub, it makes it more efficient around tune and requires less power to reach the same SPL. It has advantages and disadvantages compared to sealed, just as ported has, but you can search that online  I am no expert, i just normally "wing it", LOL.

Normally because of the massive MMS on a PR you need to use two of them and mount them opposite sides to balance them, but that is presicely the effect i am tapping into for VNF and TR duty by mounting them downfiring. So i am getting all the advantages(and diasdvantages for that matter) of a "ported" sub with the added side effect of the increases TR. This only work if the SLAPS is mounted downfiring, otherwise it will cancel out SPL, so it is a pretty spesific use of this kind of config for a spesific purpose.
Simply put: i am going against normal recommendations for this, to exploit one of its disadvantages 

For a normal farfield sub with SLAPS, you need to consider other rules.


----------



## dgrizzard

Nalleh said:


> Well, passive radiator surve the same purpose as porting a sub, it makes it more efficient around tune and requires less power to reach the same SPL. It has advantages and disadvantages compared to sealed, just as ported has, but you can search that online  I am no expert, i just normally "wing it", LOL.
> 
> Normally because of the massive MMS on a PR you need to use two of them and mount them opposite sides to balance them, but that is presicely the effect i am tapping into for VNF and TR duty by mounting them downfiring. So i am getting all the advantages(and diasdvantages for that matter) of a "ported" sub with the added side effect of the increases TR. This only work if the SLAPS is mounted downfiring, otherwise it will cancel out SPL, so it is a pretty spesific use of this kind of config for a spesific purpose.
> Simply put: i am going against normal recommendations for this, to exploit one of its disadvantages
> 
> For a normal farfield sub with SLAPS, you need to consider other rules.


Thanks, so if I'm reading that right with the SLAPS in a down firing position you will get less SPL but increased TR, or am I reading that wrong?


----------



## Nalleh

dgrizzard said:


> Thanks, so if I'm reading that right with the SLAPS in a down firing position you will get less SPL


Where did i say that?


----------



## Nalleh

Two of my VNF boxes has been used with one SLAPS until now, so had to get creative when i reconfigured for two SLAPS pr box.

Strangely enough, one of the new cutouts fit in the old center cutout, completing the circle for one cutout, only requiring a slice for the second circle to make both new circles complete. Lucky i guess


----------



## dgrizzard

Nalleh said:


> Where did i say that?





Nalleh said:


> ...So i am getting all the advantages(and diasdvantages for that matter) of a "ported" sub with the *added side effect of the increases TR*. *This only work if the SLAPS is mounted downfiring, otherwise it will cancel out SPL*, so it is a pretty spesific use of this kind of config for a spesific purpose. Simply put: *i am going against normal recommendations for this, to exploit one of its disadvantages*


I wasn't sure how to interpret this, so hence my question. I wanted to clarify if you were doing this to get more TR even though there is a lower SPL (disadvantage). I just wasn't sure what the disadvantage was, so again just trying to clarify.


----------



## Nalleh

I said if mounted OTHER than downfiring it will cancel SPL 

So, if you have farfield subs and nearfield sub, they all have to be in phase, right?

And if you have TR devices, the TR from them also has to be in phase with the TR from your NF’s and FF.

Altough my NF when fitted with just the JBL’s does contribute to TR because they are so close, it is mostly in the Y axis, and by adding the SLAPS downfiring i kind of get a mix of a regular NF box and a BOSS plattform, adding a lot of TR in the Z axis, which is what we want.

If for example i mounted the SLAPS upfiring, the SPL would be the same, but the resulting TR from it would be in inverted phase! And to get the wanted TR in phase, i would have to invert the whole NF box, and thereby the SPL from the NF would be out of phase with the FF’s!

So for the TR from the SLAPS to be in phase with the sound(SPL) from the NF’s, you have to mount the SLAPS downfiring 

Does that make more sense?


EDIT: a bit more reading about PR:

https://thehometheaterdiy.com/sealed-vs-ported-vs-bass-radiator-subwoofers/

https://www.css-audio.com/single-post/2018/01/02/When-Passive-Radiators-Are-Better-Than-Ports


EIDT 2: a lot of info is earlier in the thread when me and Aron spitballed about the SLAPS.
I first got the SLAPS because i wanted more SPL down low from the boxes i already have, and then the BOSS came around, and my idea evolved to a NF/TR combo that i just had to try. And the rest is history


----------



## dgrizzard

Nalleh said:


> I said if mounted OTHER than downfiring it will cancel SPL
> 
> So, if you have farfield subs and nearfield sub, they all have to be in phase, right?
> 
> And if you have TR devices, the TR from them also has to be in phase with the TR from your NF’s and FF.
> 
> Altough my NF when fitted with just the JBL’s does contribute to TR because they are so close, it is mostly in the Y axis, and by adding the SLAPS downfiring i kind of get a mix of a regular NF box and a BOSS plattform, adding a lot of TR in the Z axis, which is what we want.
> 
> If for example i mounted the SLAPS upfiring, the SPL would be the same, but the resulting TR from it would be in inverted phase! And to get the wanted TR in phase, i would have to invert the whole NF box, and thereby the SPL from the NF would be out of phase with the FF’s!
> 
> So for the TR from the SLAPS to be in phase with the sound(SPL) from the NF’s, you have to mount the SLAPS downfiring
> 
> Does that make more sense?
> 
> 
> EDIT: a bit more reading about PR:
> 
> https://thehometheaterdiy.com/sealed-vs-ported-vs-bass-radiator-subwoofers/
> 
> https://www.css-audio.com/single-post/2018/01/02/When-Passive-Radiators-Are-Better-Than-Ports
> 
> 
> EIDT 2: a lot of info is earlier in the thread when me and Aron spitballed about the SLAPS.
> I first got the SLAPS because i wanted more SPL down low from the boxes i already have, and then the BOSS came around, and my idea evolved to a NF/TR combo that i just had to try. And the rest is history


Yes that makes sense now, thanks for explaining it! Thanks for the links I will read up on it and go back earlier in the thread as well.


----------



## Nalleh

dgrizzard said:


> Yes that makes sense now, thanks for explaining it! Thanks for the links I will read up on it and go back earlier in the thread as well.


No worries, just ask if there is more 


Well, i got done with the SLAPS conversion today. Went from 2xJBL&1xSLAPS to 4xJBL&2xSLAPS pr NF box. So, no more BOSS per say, it is now built into the nearfields in the form of 6xSLAPS  Kind of hard to get a good pic underneath there, but here is 6 SLAPS in a row :










A bit of a hack job getting it spaced right and heavy as hell lifting it in place, but i made it.

No time to test it proper yet, but will provide more info when i do.


Oh, and it seems Viberry is up and running too, so will be fun to test that one out too, when time permits


----------



## SBuger

^^^ .Awesome work mate, as always!!!


----------



## Nalleh

Got some tweaking done today on the new JBL/PR setup. And... this was fun, holy crud the upgrade from 2JBL1PR to 4JBL2PR is MASSIVE!! I has A LOT more TR than the previous setup, even though i have REMOVED the normal BOSS drivers! I now have INSANE WOBBLES ALL THE WAY DOWN TO BELOW 4hz !! I actually think it has more TR in the single digits than the MA’s ! It actually lifts the whole back of the (heavy) plattform without me in the seat, LOL !

And the Viberry is a awsome tool for measuring TR, here is a video while watching a clip from The Meg :






I can’t seem to hold the phone steady enough, everything is shaking, LOL.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ I guess I didn’t realize you removed your BOSS drivers in the process but sounds like it doesn’t matter and is now way better!! Ha, yeah, I bet those 4JBL2PR are just killin’ it like you say, sounds like you are in ULF WOBBLE heaven!!!  And that powerful down that low, I bet that is just sooooooo super cool feeling!!! Bro, you just keep on raising the bar. …. just when you think your system’s TR can’t get any more INSANE, you take it up several more notches, I LOVE IT!!!!!! 

I can only image how powerful that is cantilevered, as I got a taste of BK again today cantilevered, instead of right under me. This time with all 4 of them and with some different settings, so seemed to work way better than the last time I tried it. Whatever the difference was it worked, and man I couldn’t hardly believe what I felt. As we know though, the BKS are only good down to about 10-12hz. BUT, It was so strong feeling on what I demoed that it felt like it was hurting my insides LOL. I love this feel and always have, so I welcomed more of it than what I was getting (which I didn’t think I could get much more of). Will update when I get a chance and am pretty stoked about it. I don’t know that it’s a MASSIVE difference like your latest change, from what I had with them positioned under my but. Well maybe, it’s enough to shock me in the difference it made, so maybe it was massive hahaha


----------



## Nalleh

Yeah, i had "only" 12xJBL’s to play with, but it is pretty clear that this was a better solution 
As i have said before, the TR Sleds are incredible sturdy and stiff, but they are starting to creak and make noise with these monsters now. And because of the weight of the VNF boxes, i only have 4 screws fastening them to the plattform, but i am starting to wonder if they have the capability to fly off the plattform, LOL !!
I would NEVER have believed that a couple of drivers could have so much force !

Another added benefit compared to the old sealed 12xJBL version, is there is now a ton more chest punch!! It seems basically just adding the 2 SLAPS pr box made the JBL’s themself much more effective! When sealed i ran 1 channel of NU6K pr box at 4 ohm, so a total of 1.5 NU6K. Now i run just one amp, with 6 pr channel at 6ohm, and it POUNDS compared to before! So tight, so punchy, and with the immense added heft and weight down low. VERY cool.

Here is a pic of the EQ i started with today for the VNF’s. This was using REW autoEQ, but i wasn’t happy with it, so i went at it manually 

And the curve with all subs are much smoother down low now, than when i started.










Nice you hear you made improvements again  Man, you change things around, LOL. I though you had found a good placement for the BK’s? Well, i can totally understand you liking them cantilevered, that would kind of be what i have, only kind of opposite. But having movement both from under you and behind the seat can be more effective. You with BOSS under you and BK’s cantilevered, and me with BK’s under me and JBL/PR/BOSS cantilevered. I bet the result is a lot of the same  Awsome job, man, always fun when you can get a better result by just switching around the gear you already have  So much fun finding these "gems".
This time i had to "invest" a bit in more SLAPS(still cheap, relatively speaking), but i gained in both sound and TR, so win-win


----------



## SBuger

^^^^^ Awesome!!! Those things just sound BEASTLY!!! Great job on the FR too!!!

Yeah, the result is probably a lot of the same on ours, just kinda switched with the gear. LOL …. Well, I was really happy and loved the BKs under me in the position that I had settled on, better than behind me before. But long story short, to keep all 3 seats feeling pretty equal in intensity from the BKs, I needed the 4 spread out better, instead of 2 under my seat (I want at least 2 under or on the MLP seat), leaving only one under each outside seat. Plus, only one amp to drive them all and not allowing different levels that would be needed on the outside seats to feel equal. Doesn’t matter much I guess because its mainly me watching in the MLP but thought it may be an easy fix if I could get them to feel as good behind me. Plus, I thought 4 across the back could work better with one amp and all levels could be the same. I thought I’d at least try it since it’s a quick changeout and simply put, it worked like a charm this time with different settings etc. and turned out way better than I even hoped for. So, win win I’d say  

I haven’t been wanting to mess with it because I’ve just been enjoying content like crazy and have been so pleased with the system, except for some creaks from the outside chairs at spirited levels with no one in them from so much TR (which this fixed as well). I’ll try to explain more in an update but got a wild hair today and just changed it out right quick to try it. This stuff is getting pretty easy to do at this point LOL. 

Was absolutely thrilled with the results, so back to more content for a good while  At least until I get another wild hair and try for a 24 behind me or something, or maybe mess with my MBM again at some point for a bit mote chest punch or something. Or maybe even the Slats for the rear 3 positions in the sub riser. May work, may not, IDK. 

Actually, I was going to just move ALL MAS and ALL BKs to my seat only (since its mainly me in the HT room) first just to see how it would feel, but honestly, after trying it the way I did today with the BKs spread out for all seats cantilevered, it’s so potent feeling now (and in all 3 seats) I don’t think I really need any more TR (lol yeah right!! Hahaha). Nah seriously, it felt freaking crazy to me today, like bordering on absurd and I’m not even pushing any of them to their limit at my highest listening levels. In fact, I have to back the BKs off about 2 db when I go from my more moderate listening levels of -20mv to -12.5mv (about the loudest I listen these days), or it’s just too much, as crazy as that sounds and starts getting a bit out of balance since I don’t use DEQ to back it off a bit. 

LOL, I may feel differently about it as I continue to watch more content and as always, more demo time which I love just as much as watching new stuff  But its usually during demo time that I start getting crazy and analyzing everything and wanting more, so we’ll see hahaha. I’m kinda thinking at this point though, with the way I have my particular rig set up, maybe the only real/good way to improve it is by adding a 24 behind me for more ‘actually slam’ from particle velocity, or even the MBM added back in. So far in my previous attempts, I haven’t been able to get the MBM nearly as lethal feeling as it was in my last set up downstairs. That thing was beyond insane down there. 

Anyway, sorry to spill all that in your thread, that wasn’t my intention, but once I started telling about it, couldn’t shut it down obviously . So much for long story short, should have saved it for my thread I guess LOL


----------



## dgrizzard

Nalleh said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, i had "only" 12xJBL’s to play with, but it is pretty clear that this was a better solution
> As i have said before, the TR Sleds are incredible sturdy and stiff, but they are starting to creak and make noise with these monsters now. And because of the weight of the VNF boxes, i only have 4 screws fastening them to the plattform, but i am starting to wonder if they have the capability to fly off the plattform, LOL !!
> I would NEVER have believed that a couple of drivers could have so much force !
> 
> Another added benefit compared to the old sealed 12xJBL version, is there is now a ton more chest punch!! It seems basically just adding the 2 SLAPS pr box made the JBL’s themself much more effective! When sealed i ran 1 channel of NU6K pr box at 4 ohm, so a total of 1.5 NU6K. Now i run just one amp, with 6 pr channel at 6ohm, and it POUNDS compared to before! So tight, so punchy, and with the immense added heft and weight down low. VERY cool.
> 
> Here is a pic of the EQ i started with today for the VNF’s. This was using REW autoEQ, but i wasn’t happy with it, so i went at it manually
> 
> And the curve with all subs are much smoother down low now, than when i started.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice you hear you made improvements again  Man, you change things around, LOL. I though you had found a good placement for the BK’s? Well, i can totally understand you liking them cantilevered, that would kind of be what i have, only kind of opposite. But having movement both from under you and behind the seat can be more effective. You with BOSS under you and BK’s cantilevered, and me with BK’s under me and JBL/PR/BOSS cantilevered. I bet the result is a lot of the same  Awsome job, man, always fun when you can get a better result by just switching around the gear you already have  So much fun finding these "gems".
> This time i had to "invest" a bit in more SLAPS(still cheap, relatively speaking), but i gained in both sound and TR, so win-win


Are you using 1 inuke for all of this now? Just trying to judge how much power is required for each 4xJBL2xPR. I would at most do 1 for each seat(so just 2 in total).


----------



## Nalleh

@SBuger. So glad you could find some more oummph in your setup. After i have tried cantilever, it is defenitely a tool to consider when trying to optimize your setup, espesially when mixing more than one TR device. 4x BK’s equals 13 !! pounds of mass(pistons), and with the added leverage of mounted behind the seat(cantilever) it is a force to reckon with 
With more than one device, the point is to balance it out, so cramming it all underneath the seat isn’t always the best.

I hear you one the «difference between seat" experience, but you at least have 3 seats, with a middle main MLP, meaning when you watch movies by yourself, the whole plattform is centered/balanced, side to side. I have just 2 seats, and when i watch alone, i can actually hear the opposite end of the plattform is lifting from the floor, LOL. I may need to put some weigth/dummy in the other seat for when i watch alone, HAHA. 

Yeah, about a 24".... i really don’t think i need/ want any more SPL, because i think i am pissing of the neighbours plenty as it is now, and a 24" can’t be silenced, LOL. I remember coolrda saying that before the 24" he never had any issues with complaints, but only a couple of days after getting the 24", he heards from neighbours, so......

TR on the other hand doesn’t affect the neighbours 

Yup, i have been able to watch lots of movies lately too, and it is so much fun, the other day i watched Gåten Ragnarok(norwegian movie)

https://www.amazon.com/Ragnarok-Blu...1_11?keywords=Ragnarok&qid=1569588253&sr=8-11

This was one the DB bass list, and although i have seen it before, not with this crazy setup. And it was INSAAAANE! It was a lot better than i remembered, it upscaled exellent with Neural:X and had a incredible LFE/ULF track !
Recommended !


@dgrizzard: yes, one NU6K for all 12 JBL’s. With the box(size) i have now and number of driver/radiators i am getting plenty of excursion with 100W pr driver.
With these small sealed boxes i could pump 500W pr driver and not exceed Xmax, but with this "ported" design i reach the same Xmax with ~100W.
Here is a excursion graph with the 3 different options:
Sealed 4JBL= yellow, 500W pr driver.
2JBL1PR= Red, 125W
4JBL2PR= blue, 125W
Same box on all.










125W is actually really pushing it at 18 mm, but it’s just a sim  A NU6K has realistically ~1200W pr channel at 4 ohm, so probably around ~900 at 6 ohm, so more than enough for 6 driver.


----------



## dgrizzard

Thanks! I am probably going to try and consolidate my amplifiers instead of buying a new one. Currently already have 2 (for BOSS and rear surr), so I could probably just buy 1 bigger one and consolidate everything into that.


----------



## SBuger

Ahhhh ….nice on the Raganarock!!! I haven’t seen it yet, but may have a copy of it in MKV on my hard drive somewhere. I’ll have to check. I remember folks on the old bass movies forum used to talk about how great it was for ULF.

Thanks man, yeah it was cool to get a little more oomph out of it. Even with them getting only 250 watts a piece with 4 on one amp now, vs about 1000watts with only 2. Doesn’t seem to matter, which kinda surprised me. I guess they don’t really need all that much to do their thing like they do. 

As far as spreading out the TR devices when running a lot, yep I agree its probably best. And yeah, when you put it that way about the 12 pounds of pistons on the BKs moving with leverage mounted behind, paints a pretty good picture as to why they can do what they can do. 

Yeah, the seats with no one in them can be a noise problem when TR starts getting crazy. I ended up connecting my 3 seats again, even though I got away from it there for a while to help cut way down on this. So, this combined with the BKs now in the back seemed to eliminate almost all of the bad noises. I just barely heard it yesterday on right seat. 

Good Idea for some dummy weight in the other seat when watching alone. You’ve just got so much TR power now that it doesn’t surprise me that that’s happening on your unweighted seat. If it gets bad enough too, it can really be distracting. I started watching the new Godzilla the other day and I was getting way too much noise from the other seats and is partially what pushed me into making the change with BK position and connecting the seats again. 

As far as the 24 goes, good point on the noise issues and pissing off the neighbors. Yeah, I remember cool saying that about this. That would not be good. So that could be a problem, didn’t really think of that Lol. It may not matter, but I’m not really wanting it for more SPL though, as I don’t even use all I have available now at my listening levels (at least I don’t think I do, but maybe on the ultra-deep ULF stuff). I just mainly want it for the internal hard hitting slam effect kind of like what Sekosche was talking about with his new 21 behind him. Kind of like single digit TR, I don’t know that one can ever have too much of that effect. It’s a different kind of TR/slam effect than what the other TR devices give. Well, at least on mine since I don’t have it connected to my platform like you do.


----------



## Nalleh

Just putting this post up here too, in case someone finds it interesting :

More testing ! This Qvibe thing is so much fun 

So i taped the MPU to my speaker cones and let it rip
Like so:










So this basically measures excursion of the driver. Here is white noise and sine sweep with a flat signal. This is a SI18HT in a sealed box, so i guess it shouldn’ be a flat curve?










And here is on the JBL driver which is in the box with a passive radiator. White noise and sweep looks really similar actually.










And here is taped to the passive radiator in the same box. Not as peaky as the Winisd would suggest.










Same as above only with the EQ i need to correct FR. Bottom pic is MPU on plattform above the Crowsons, with and without EQ/LPF.










And i finished the evening with a viewing of San Andreas. WOW, what a ride! There was a cool wobble at around 1:32, so i whipped out the RPI AND the VS to measure it, and they actually show pretty similar too 










PS: the Qvibe pic is up to 80hz, but if you look at 0-50hz, they are very similar.


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> Ok, so remember i put the HDFury into action again earlier. Well, my Integral was the first gen version, and it has had a few glitches since the get go. And now these came back.
> 
> So i went on the HDFury website to see if i could find something better, like a Vertex, or something.
> 
> Well, i ended up with a Vertex2, a even newer and more improved version than Vertex, and it only took 6 days from i ordered until i got it, all the way up in Norway. Man they ship fast!
> 
> And this beaty was on another level, so much more sturdy and it ouzzes quality, and the little OLED screen is really cool
> 
> This new one solved several problems.
> 
> First of all it worked flawless with my earlier idea about splitting UHD and 2D/3D BD(for including the Darbee and Mcable), same as i did with the Integral.
> 
> And it solved the Dolby Atmos MAT issue, where i couldn’t use my dual Atmos AVR’s on Netflix and ATV4K, as it somehow reverted to multichannel 7.1 as soon as i turned on AVR nr2. Not anymore, all sources work with full FrankenAtmos.
> 
> It has 3!! HDMI outputs, 2 for up to 4K full spec, and one for audio only full spec. So now instead of going through the Denon 8500 and via Zone2 HDMI to my second AVR, i simply use the third Vertex HDMI output to my second AVR for sound. Much smoother.
> 
> It has 4!! HDMI inputs, so now i connected all sources to the Vertex2 and then on to the Denon 8500. This way i can get full on-screen info about every source regarding 4K details.
> 
> And it switches automatically between the active inputs ! I am so impressed with this little gadget, it just simply works! And simplifies the use of my setup. Awsome


Gah, I haven't read this thread in awhile and missed a ton. It was interesting to see that you're using the Vertex2 now. I picked up one of the HDFury DIVAs back when they first launched and had been thinking of trying it to Frankenstein a bit. The DIVA is similar to the V2 but it also has an input lag sensor that you can run and it does active bias lighting. I mainly bought it for the latter with DreamScreen going out of business. I still have my old Denon 4310 laying around. So I was thinking of maybe hooking it up to the audio only HDMI and using it to run additional base layer channels. That way I can get wides and do a 9.1.6 

I'm glad to see you've done some upgrades too because I'm coming for you.  SLAPs were delivered today and I already have a couple stacks of subs piled up. The temps here are finally under 100 and my wood store is having their fall sale this weekend. I'm finally going to be able to get back to building some new stuff.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Gah, I haven't read this thread in awhile and missed a ton. It was interesting to see that you're using the Vertex2 now. I picked up one of the HDFury DIVAs back when they first launched and had been thinking of trying it to Frankenstein a bit. The DIVA is similar to the V2 but it also has an input lag sensor that you can run and it does active bias lighting. I mainly bought it for the latter with DreamScreen going out of business. I still have my old Denon 4310 laying around. So I was thinking of maybe hooking it up to the audio only HDMI and using it to run additional base layer channels. That way I can get wides and do a 9.1.6
> 
> I'm glad to see you've done some upgrades too because I'm coming for you.  SLAPs were delivered today and I already have a couple stacks of subs piled up. The temps here are finally under 100 and my wood store is having their fall sale this weekend. I'm finally going to be able to get back to building some new stuff.


Yeah, i looked at the Diva and the rest, but the Vertex2 had what i needed and was cheaper, so.....

Only positillity for wides on the 4310 is the older obselete DSX, i would at least look for a newer model capable of NEO:X. Also remember if you mix in a pre-Atmos AVR into a Atmos setup, it will also contain the content for the overheads in its base layer. So for example your DSX wides would also have the front overhead content, making the pannings and direction dilluted.

Exciting about your upgrades  Can’t wait to hear if you will like the SLAPS like i do  PLEASE do make a thread/update your thread when you start


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> Yeah, i looked at the Diva and the rest, but the Vertex2 had what i needed and was cheaper, so.....
> 
> Only positillity for wides on the 4310 is the older obselete DSX, i would at least look for a newer model capable of NEO:X. Also remember if you mix in a pre-Atmos AVR into a Atmos setup, it will also contain the content for the overheads in its base layer. So for example your DSX wides would also have the front overhead content, making the pannings and direction dilluted.
> 
> Exciting about your upgrades  Can’t wait to hear if you will like the SLAPS like i do  PLEASE do make a thread/update your thread when you start


Yeah, the V2 is perfect for what you're doing. If I didn't want the bias lighting I would have gone with it too. What you mention with the 4310 is one of the concerns I've had with it. I had been thinking of it as proof of concept and if I end up sticking with it I might look into a cheap 2nd receiver. 

Will do on the updates. I should unbox everything from their shipping boxes and start the update in my 24" build thread. I'll just use it for it. I'm going to be building everything to match too.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Yeah, the V2 is perfect for what you're doing. If I didn't want the bias lighting I would have gone with it too. What you mention with the 4310 is one of the concerns I've had with it. I had been thinking of it as proof of concept and if I end up sticking with it I might look into a cheap 2nd receiver.
> 
> Will do on the updates. I should unbox everything from their shipping boxes and start the update in my 24" build thread. I'll just use it for it. I'm going to be building everything to match too.


Yeah, i have the ambilight on my Philips Oled tv, so no need there, and i watch movies on the PJ with pitch black, so no need there either 

You COULD do 7.1.6 with the 8500(as i assume you do now?), and get another 4310 and use the PLII trick to get wides, by extracting a center(wide) from each side’s front and surround 

Or, use the 8500 in a 9.1.4 setup and use two 4310’s to extract two top middles 

Yup, your 24" thread will do  Will follow along eagerly


----------



## gpmbc

Hey Nalleh, are the JBLs covering the same range as your other subs or low passed differently?


----------



## Nalleh

gpmbc said:


> Hey Nalleh, are the JBLs covering the same range as your other subs or low passed differently?



Yes, they are low-passed differently. Because of the immense mid bass capability that 12 of these have i use both EQ and a LPF to tame them up top  A 18dB LPF at 60hz(and negative High Shelf filters) is what i currently use. Using a too high LPF on nearfields, say above 80hz IMO can make then more localizable, and/or sound boomy. But this is preference and different for each setup, but 80hz is a good start point


----------



## maikeldepotter

Nalleh said:


> That is correct, and the clearest example was as i mentioned the guitars in Bailando: clearly in the 'pure surrounds', but not at all in the 'surround wides' (and of course not in the 'pure wides' either).


Nalleh, do you remember if at that time we checked whether the guitars that could be heard in the surrounds of the 5.1.4+wides config were actually object sounds, and NOT coming from rear surrounds bed channels folded into the surrounds of the 5.1.4 config?

*Edit:* OK, I did some test myself with this clip. First of all, those guitars are indeed exclusively positioned to the sides, there are no guitars in the rears with a 7.x.x config nor in the wides with a 9.x.x config. *But the thing is that I hear the opposite of what you have reported.* If I switch from 9.1.4 to 5.1.4+wides (so cutting out the rears), the guitars are now also heard through the wides. So this clip does IMO not provide us with evidence that the part that is arrayed to the wides (in a 5.1.4+wides config) only contains bed channel info and not objects. Maybe the Atmos decoder can in the end ONLY copy the whole side surround audio stream, including objects that are not part of the original bed channel, and array it to the wides. PS: Just like Trinnov has recently explained and which I reported on the Atmos and the Altitude thread.


----------



## Nalleh

maikeldepotter said:


> Nalleh, do you remember if at that time we checked whether the guitars that could be heard in the surrounds of the 5.1.4+wides config were actually object sounds, and NOT coming from rear surrounds bed channels folded into the surrounds of the 5.1.4 config?
> 
> *Edit:* OK, I did some test myself with this clip. First of all, those guitars are indeed exclusively positioned to the sides, there are no guitars in the rears with a 7.x.x config nor in the wides with a 9.x.x config. *But the thing is that I hear the opposite of what you have reported.* If I switch from 9.1.4 to 5.1.4+wides (so cutting out the rears), the guitars are now also heard through the wides. So this clip does IMO not provide us with evidence that the part that is arrayed to the wides (in a 5.1.4+wides config) only contains bed channel info and not objects. Maybe the Atmos decoder can in the end ONLY copy the whole side surround audio stream, including objects that are not part of the original bed channel, and array it to the wides. PS: Just like Trinnov has recently explained and which I reported on the Atmos and the Altitude thread.


Well, first of all this was done a while ago, and second of all i did not include the rears in any of these test. Was too hung up in what the wides were doing i guess, LOL.
But i still remember that there was a big difference in what pur wides, sur wides and pure surrounds did. And if there was guitars in the sur wides, it was incredible faint, and VERY different than from the pure surrounds.

But then again things have happened in the Atmos world since i did this, so maybe this test might behave different with todays gear.
For example the 8500 is handling DTS:X a bit different than my older 7200 does.


----------



## DesertDog

@Nalleh out of curiosity, did you change the weight on your slaps? Wondering what you found to be a good balance on them. I'm putting my boxes together now and it got me thinking. I haven't update my thread yet but here's a sneak preview of one standing on it's end. I need to test it too because I'm not sure if I gave enough clearance for the SLAP when it's going in. I might have to add a 2nd bezel on it get another 3/4" to be safe.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> @Nalleh out of curiosity, did you change the weight on your slaps? Wondering what you found to be a good balance on them. I'm putting my boxes together now and it got me thinking. I haven't update my thread yet but here's a sneak preview of one standing on it's end. I need to test it too because I'm not sure if I gave enough clearance for the SLAP when it's going in. I might have to add a 2nd bezel on it get another 3/4" to be safe.


No, i haven’t touched the weight on them! I always planned on just trying them as is, and they worked so good, i just left them as is, LOL.

Also, the manual says no weight allowed if mounted downfiring, so i am already pushing it  But stuff that !!

I am considering testing adding some 75gram discs i got a while ago, to see what difference it may do, but again: they work just about perfect as is, and i have to remove boxes, and take out all SLAPS to add weight, so i haven’t bothered yet.

Yeah, it is a good idea to leave them some room to work, i have about 2" clearance under mine.

Tip: your result may vary, but i had a tuff time getting that original rubber gasket to seal properly, so i removed it, and used a adhesive rubber gasket instead. Job done 

Your boxes look GREAT, man


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> No, i haven’t touched the weight on them! I always planned on just trying them as is, and they worked so good, i just left them as is, LOL.
> 
> Also, the manual says no weight allowed if mounted downfiring, so i am already pushing it  But stuff that !!
> 
> I am considering testing adding some 75gram discs i got a while ago, to see what difference it may do, but again: they work just about perfect as is, and i have to remove boxes, and take out all SLAPS to add weight, so i haven’t bothered yet.
> 
> Yeah, it is a good idea to leave them some room to work, i have about 2" clearance under mine.
> 
> Tip: your result may vary, but i had a tuff time getting that original rubber gasket to seal properly, so i removed it, and used a adhesive rubber gasket instead. Job done
> 
> Your boxes look GREAT, man


Thanks, this rubber gaskets are odd. I haven't checked how good their seal is. After posting I've been doing more work on the trim pieces and the speaker stands I'm building for my rear surrounds. The SLAPs don't have as much clearance as they should. I think they're going to hit the drive at negative xmax. I have an extra sheet of 3/4" and 1/2" baltic birch here so I cut them down to size to make an extra 1.25" bezel to attach. That'll give me a bit more than needed. I totally spaced about the depth they needed when I made the original design.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Thanks, this rubber gaskets are odd. I haven't checked how good their seal is. After posting I've been doing more work on the trim pieces and the speaker stands I'm building for my rear surrounds. The SLAPs don't have as much clearance as they should. I think they're going to hit the drive at negative xmax. I have an extra sheet of 3/4" and 1/2" baltic birch here so I cut them down to size to make an extra 1.25" bezel to attach. That'll give me a bit more than needed. I totally spaced about the depth they needed when I made the original design.


Spoiler alert: i actually made the same boo-boo when i mounted mine, so the SLAPS are a bit close to the JBL magnets inside the box on negative Xmax, as you say. However i i think i measured right below 2", so i should be fine. When the JBL’s are at full tilt, the SLAPS are at ~60mm, so there should be clearance


----------



## Nalleh

Ever so slightly update.

I had the VNF boxes placed on the TR Sleds with them bolted to it( can be seen at top of pic) to avoid them moving around, and also make them more of a "one unit" so all movements got transferred to the seat.

However, i noted creaks and noises from them when they moved, as in playing heavy content. I also noted that if i tried lifting the sleds at the outer rear cornes, it flexed a bit.

So i made a tiny "brace" from scrap pieces between the top of each boxes, thereby linking the boxes both at the bottom AND top. This made a big difference, all noise/creaks was eliminated, there is NO flex when trying to lift outer corner, and it actually made it more efficient at transferring movement to the seat, as now all 3 boxes is litterally all working as one. Job done


----------



## sirjaymz

@Nalleh - I have a similar setup as yours (7200 + 6300). Do you have any audio delay issues after calibrating both of the units independently?


----------



## Nalleh

sirjaymz said:


> @Nalleh - I have a similar setup as yours (7200 + 6300). Do you have any audio delay issues after calibrating both of the units independently?


You mean when watching movies ? Yes  I have to adjust lip sync from time to time depending on sound format and 2D/3D movies.

One of the pitfalls of doing this trick i guess


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Would you have that issue if both AVR's were the same model?


----------



## Nalleh

BP1Fanatic said:


> Would you have that issue if both AVR's were the same model?


I don’t know, but presumably it would help. My 8500 and 7200 are several years apart, and have slightly different menus regarding lip sync, but they still receive the exact same signal, so it is strange that they don’t process it the same.


----------



## Nalleh

Alaways someone thinking of new tricks, LOL!!!
@SBuger, you may know about Harpervision, as you bragged about his settings for you new PJ?

Well, the other day i found this thread:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-...luding-hdr10-conversion-w-dtm-projectors.html

It appears he found a way to get Dolby Vision to non-DV displays !!!

By using a HDfury Vertex and tricking the source by using a LLDV Sony A1 EDID, both OPPO 203/5, ATV4K and XB1X will "unlock" it’s Dolby Vision layer!!

It is not perfect, but i tried it on my Vertex2, and it works! And even though this is a cheat code and probably need a display calib, i must say the initial test show very promising! Picture look noticable better, with better dynamics, more pop, and better blacks 
I am in no way an expert on calibrating a TV/PJ and what i am looking at may be all kinds of wrong, LOL. But my eyes like what they see 

And hey: i was using the OPPO tone mapping HDR>SDR or Custom gamma curves anyway, so not exactly textbook as it was, and this sure looks better than those cheats 

And it works on all displays/PJ, and it can even convert HDR10 to DV(well at least the OPPO and some Sony’s can), and supposedly gains dynamic tone mapping too 

Cool, and i already had the Vertex2  How awsome is it to be able to get a better picture by just changing some setting on gear you already have, LOL.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Right on man!!! I’ll check out that thread better when I get a chance.

Yeah, I’m absolutely loving the Harper Vision. Well, a tweaked Harper Vision. His was too dark and still a little dull looking to me on HDR content, as well as having to use in high lamp, which was way too loud for my liking. With it tweaked, I can run it in Eco mode (can barely hear the fan) and is super bright and punchy with HDR material, which is what I like. I don’t use a FURY or Vertex though like most of you JVC guys do though. The HV and HV tweak I’m using actually has the Oppo (or whatever the source) send the full UHD and Color Signal to the PJ, where it is then tone mapped within the PJ. Dave Harper was a genius IMO coming up with this. I tried using the Oppo’s tone mapping for a while, but this way just kicks the crap out of it, no comparison at all from what I found. But yeah, this is a cheat as well by tone mapping the Full HDR signal within the PJ for a "Super SDR image’ I guess you could say, but I’m cool with that 

I’ll have a look at that thread but can’t imagine being much happier with the image than what the tweaked HV gives and is easy to do too. But, I’m open minded about all this stuff so will check it out 

Thanks for the link man!!!

So awesome that it’s giving you better results!!!


----------



## Nalleh

Yeah, you may be more into this picture setting stuff than me, i have just use dthe OPPO tone mapping lately, but think this is my new way of doing it. Watched Thor Ragnarok earlier and it is just normal HDR10 and used OPPO’s Force DV mode and it was mindblowingly good 

And then i had to pop in Aquaman, which is DV, to test a little, and just had to take some pics. Just with my phone and handheld, and not sure how it will be compressed when uploading and seen on your screen, but it looked insane!! Very exciting


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Awesome, Pics look amazing!!!! 

Hell Yeah bro, so excited for you!!!!    Yeah man, I hear ya, getting an image that your super pleased with can be so exciting and really does make a difference. I always thought I was mainly a Bass and TR guy, but now I find that I enjoy the PQ and color on these UHD HDR movies just as much as the bass and TR these days LOL. It really does help with the whole experience!!! 

The cool thing is, it makes them ALL look great, I’m sure it will on yours too. With tone mapping using the Oppo, some would look pretty good and others not so great. Also just using the HDR controls the projector has most most times would leave a lot to be desired on most HDR content. Just way too dark and dull. Now I feel it's as great as it was bad LOL


----------



## Nalleh

I know, i am a bass and sound guy too, LOL, but the images i am seing these days make me wanna see A lot of my movies again, HAHA. Now i know how you felt when you discovered how good the pic on your new PJ was 

Ok, on another note:

So, i got an idea (again) about another use of cantilever. On my TR Sleds i have the BK’s up front with iso’s underneath. Altough this gives them some room to work, eventually even the iso’s will "stop", which is under heavy ULF use, and this will make them bottom out easier.
I was thinking: what if i REMOVE the front iso’s and thereby giving the BK’s more room to work. Basically the BK’s will be in "free air", and will kind of be cantilevered from the midpoint of the sleds, where the MA’s are, and forward. NORMALLY with just a plattform this wouldn’t work, as it would tilt the plattform and it would sit on the floor, but guess what: on my plattform i have 300lb of VNF’s bolted to the rear of plattform that works as a counterweigth, LOL.

So i tried it, but i didn’t remove the front iso’s, i just moved them rearwards about 1ft. So i removed those with red cross in pic below and put them were the blue dots are.










Still, the TR Sleds are so sturdy, the clearance to the floor is the same under the front, they did not tilt, and sitting down in the seats was no problem 

So did it work? Well, i found a couple of good movies to test it out: Jurassic World and Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom.

It was clear from the first dinosaur stomp that my idea worked  I even went for broke and REMOVED the negative LS and negative PEQ i used to prevent the BK’s bottoming before i started the movie. And no bottoming occured !!!! It was just EPIC ULF all the way, holy cow this movie is awsome 
The first one is regular HDR10, but i used the force DV setting and this movie has never looked better 

As good as the first one is, JWFK is on another level !!!! A-M-A-Z-I-N-G !!!! When the vulcano goes off and they have to run, HOLY AMAZEBALLS was i pummeled with waves of ULF!!! It was totally crazy, and i could defenitely feel that the BK’s had increased displacement!! What a ride!!

Speaking of vulcano: this one IS in Dolby Vision, and it showed! The lava from the vulcano looked on fire !! My jaws was on the floor! I could not believe the PJ could throw such an amazing picture, it was truly a eyeopener !
I think i is a combo of me not having the best way/settings on the PJ before, and the new DV settings is much closer (and a bit better)to what it should be, but no matter: it is jawdropping !

So between the new DV settings and this BK’s mod, i got 2 pretty major upgrades for FREEEEEE! How cool is that


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Wicked cool my bro, on the new ‘free air’ BK mount and the DV settings for better image!!!

Yep, I TOTALLY agree about free air on the BKs and the isos a little ways away from them, giving them more leverage and range of motion without bottoming as easily. Mine are setup pretty much the same way with 'free air', just on the rear where yours are on the front. Mine are attached directly to my seating behind the armrests (with iso in front up under the seat feet, but probably feels similar to yours. I’ve also taken the Negative LS off of mine as well and haven’t bottomed them yet. I was talking about adding 4 more the other day in the TR thread, but honestly, I don't know that I need them. In fact, I backed my BKs off 3db today for a lot of different demos and they feel just right (I Know, WTF??? LESS LOL). I don't know that my BKs have ever felt better and more powerful (the whole TR package actually, realism as well). Adding more BKs would probably be a waste, but then again, they may give a more powerful synergistic violent feel within the body with 4 more, even with them all ran at lower levels to get about the same amount of shake if that makes since. I feel like Ive got plenty of shake at this point, Ive just been after a more violent feel within the body, and these BK LFE's seem to bring it in spades mounted like this. 

Crazy how a thought about something in your rig pops into your head and then works like a charm huh!!! : I love it when that happens, and free makes it all the better  

Yeah man, I know exactly the part your talking about in JW:FK, I LOVE that scene and have played it numerous times LOL And yeah, the visuals in this one are insanely good. YUP, that lava ….WOWZERS huh!!! :0 

Great stuff here Nalleh, as usual!!!!!! Your rig just keeps getting better, AWESOME!!!!! Your a true inspiration around here in many ways my friend!!!


----------



## Nalleh

Thanks my good friend. 

Yes, your success with your free air mounting of your BK’s(BK actually has a optional bracket that mounts it just like that), my succes with the VNF/BOSS cantilevered and also the fact that i have the counterweigth VNF to balance it out, made me think about it. In fact i might try something similar with moving the REAR iso’s forward, to give the SLAPS some more viggle room, LOL.

I am also going to do the re-greasing of the BK’s. I got some time off next week, so i will do it then.

Awsome to hear you could remove the negative LS too on your BK’s. It made mine feel much better in that area, very noticable actually 

Ohh, and BTW: i also tried the force DV trick on a BD!!! I put in the bluray of Aquaman, and gosh garn it: it looked GREAT !!! I tried the same scenes as i did on the UHD: when Aquaman and redhead first comes to the underwater city. Totally breathtaking pictures !

Which reminds me: i HAVE to see the 3D version of that movie (i got the 4K/3D combo).I bet those scenes are off the charts cool in 3D 

Not sure if the force DV work in 3D though, LOL .


----------



## Nalleh

More mods, LOL.

Got some inner tubing from a wheelbarrow to put under my TR Sleds  

Air suspension, LOL.

Not much pressure should be needed, a couple psi at most i guess, so a little handpump is more than enough.










A little hodge-podge with some air hoses, and tire valves later and voila! I am using the earlier block off boards i used on my VNF’s when i used 2 JBL’s to have between the air bladders and sleds.










And mounted it looks like this, with this coming out to one side. So before watching a movie, just pump it up a little and it clears the normal iso’s, and you have air suspension. Of course fully adjustable  After movie, just let out the air, and it’s back to normal 










A little video. I am just moving it with one hand on top of the VNF. Pretty "floaty"






I have to thank @trhought for this idea 

Not tested much yet, but this seems to have merit, and like i said, can be adjusted within pretty a pretty broad specter, i think


----------



## trhought

Nalleh said:


> More mods, LOL.
> 
> Got some inner tubing from a wheelbarrow to put under my TR Sleds
> 
> Air suspension, LOL.
> 
> Not much pressure should be needed, a couple psi at most i guess, so a little handpump is more than enough.
> 
> A little hodge-podge with some air hoses, and tire valves later and voila! I am using the earlier block off boards i used on my VNF’s when i used 2 JBL’s to have between the air bladders and sleds.
> 
> And mounted it looks like this, with this coming out to one side. So before watching a movie, just pump it up a little and it clears the normal iso’s, and you have air suspension. Of course fully adjustable  After movie, just let out the air, and it’s back to normal
> 
> A little video. I am just moving it with one hand on top of the VNF. Pretty "floaty"
> 
> I have to thank @trhought for this idea
> 
> Not tested much yet, but this seems to have merit, and like i said, can be adjusted within pretty a pretty broad specter, i think


Nalleh....Awesome setup! You went one step further than me with the on-the-fly adjustment capability. It definitely brings more TR than the traditional 30-40 durometer isos based on my testing. Looking forward to hearing your impressions. I went back to the original isos only because I wasn't sure how durable the inner tubes would be over time....especially when my son has the football team over for movies after practice 

The credit for this idea goes to @Longeze. He came up with the original idea of using inner tubes. Then, I thought of combining utilities of the inner tube by using a larger diameter inner tube that could be placed concentric to each JBL driver like a hovercraft for each JBL. With this setup not only does the inner tube provide the "floating sensation" but it also captures the pressure wave off the back of the JBL driver to add additional TR....like hovercraft lift basically. He actually built the hovercraft version after our brainstorming session and reported great results.

I built the non-hovercraft version using the smaller diameter inner tubes as isolators like yours and was impressed with the added TR. The non-hovercraft version can handle more abuse because the smaller diameter, thicker inner tubes are stronger than larger diameter thinner inner tubes needed for the hovercraft version. Even then, I didn't think the stronger inner tubes could handle the abuse from teenage boys so I abandoned that setup.

Your idea of having both the inner tube isolator option and the traditional isolator option is a great one! I'm thinking even in my case, if the inner tubes developed a leak from abuse while I'm not around, the BOSS platforms would still have the traditional isolators as a back-up and still provide TR until the problem is remedied.

Great idea and setup! Looking forward to learning more from your experiments


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Yes, the possibility of leaks was the reason i left in the normal iso’s. That way, if a leaks occur, it won’t be all lopsided and on the floor And to be frank, it is WAY to floaty for everyday use, LOL. If the other person in the couch moves, it is like being in a boat on the ocean! It is basially a rocking chair now, LOL! So i thought it would be best to leave it "optional". And with the handpump it works great, there is probably just 6-7 pumps from on the iso’s to free floating. But i need to get a pressure gauge, to monitor how much is needed, and i need one with probably max 0-10 psi, because the tubes are still way soft even when free floating. And to be able to know what pressure is suitable for "movie time", so it gets consistent every time.

Also, the size and number of innertubes can be used to tune it going forward, this was with 2 innertubes and they are ~4 inch inflated height(width of the tire). This might be too much height compared to pressure needed, so that will need some testing.

I really don’t see it being a problem about durability, the pressure needed is minimal and as long as there isn’t any sharp objects near them, nails, sharp edges etc, i don’t think it will be a problem. They are meant for a good bit of more pressure than in this use case. But time will tell  These innertubes certenly seem like they are solid enough.

I am more worried about the hoses slipping apart, as some wasn’t "ment to fit" and just has a press fit, LOL. I just forced them into each other . But again low pressure, so we’ll see.


----------



## trhought

Nalleh said:


> ^^^ Yes, the possibility of leaks was the reason i left in the normal iso’s. That way, if a leaks occur, it won’t be all lopsided and on the floor And to be frank, it is WAY to floaty for everyday use, LOL. If the other person in the couch moves, it is like being in a boat on the ocean! It is basially a rocking chair now, LOL! So i thought it would be best to leave it "optional". And with the handpump it works great, there is probably just 6-7 pumps from on the iso’s to free floating. But i need to get a pressure gauge, to monitor how much is needed, and i need one with probably max 0-10 psi, because the tubes are still way soft even when free floating. And to be able to know what pressure is suitable for "movie time", so it gets consistent every time.
> 
> Also, the size and number of innertubes can be used to tune it going forward, this was with 2 innertubes and they are ~4 inch inflated height(width of the tire). This might be too much height compared to pressure needed, so that will need some testing.
> 
> I really don’t see it being a problem about durability, the pressure needed is minimal and as long as there isn’t any sharp objects near them, nails, sharp edges etc, i don’t think it will be a problem. They are meant for a good bit of more pressure than in this use case. But time will tell  These innertubes certenly seem like they are solid enough.
> 
> I am more worried about the hoses slipping apart, as some wasn’t "ment to fit" and just has a press fit, LOL. I just forced them into each other . But again low pressure, so we’ll see.


I'm loving the hand pump idea. Longeze was even thinking of controlling pressure through a PID loop since he's in the controls trade.

The tubes lend themselves to lots of different opportunities for experimentation for sure.

Teenage boys and all their horseplay was my biggest concern....especially when I'm not around to keep an eye on them  Having the isolators as a backup would definitely ease my concerns.

Happy experimenting!


----------



## SBuger

Great stuff as always, Nalleh, can't wait to hear your impressions of it!!!


----------



## Nalleh

Did some Viberry’s today with the new "baggers" 

First of all i tested with different air pressure on the bladders. I had it "tuned" to the same height as with the Hudson iso, so the plattform was level. Call it level 0mm. And then i increased pressure until the rear of plattform was 5mm higher, and then to 10mm higher, so level 5mm and level 10mm. Still don’t have a pressure gage, so i go by height only.

HOWEVER, all levels measured EXACTLY the same !! So with these(4inch height) bladders, air pressure is a moot point 
In order to get stiffer suspension from the bladder, i need more air pressure, but that makes them to tall, so to test that i need smaller bladders(less height), or make more height/room for the bladders i have.

Anyway, here is some comparisons with the timestamps i posted in the Martian review i did the other day.
New air suspension is green and Hudsons are orange.

The airlock scene got a little less linear, but remember this is not nesesserily meant to be linear, it is just the content played here.
Still improved several dB’s in several areas. Might also be different resonance frequensies on the iso’s vs bladders.










Storm looks much better, with better exctension too  Much smoother curve too.










Same with launch. Gains pretty much everywhere, touching ~ 140dB between ~10-20hz 











Regarding having the plattform level: i recessed the rear Hudson iso’s about 1/2 inch up into the plattform, so when the plattform is level and resting on the bladders, there is about that clearance, 1/2 inch for the bladders to work. So when i let out the air, the plattform is a tiny bit lower in the rear, but no biggie 

The baggers do feel more "smooth" and effortless than the iso’s, so this feels promising  What still amazes me is how presice and dynamic the TR sleds can be over such a large frequency area. Really cool to have both fast transient and slow wobbles, and with texture and definition. Awsome !


----------



## SBuger

^^^ AWESOME, Nalleh!!!!! Looks like it gave you some real nice gains. It just keeps getting better and better for you my Bro!!!!!


----------



## vn800art

Crazinesssss! Pure AVS stuff here! And comprehensive explanation of testing results. I'm still ages behind, wondering what to add (and how!) to my system and .... voilà another step forward from you in a new and different direction!
Impressed
Congrats!
Regards
Alessandro


----------



## BP1Fanatic

As DJ Magic Mike says....BASS is the name of the game! Pure bassgasm Nalleh!


----------



## Nalleh

Thanks guys, much appreciated 

Well, i got another idea the other day, LOL. If it works like i am thinking it might improve things even more, as if that is needed, HAHA!!

The idea moves things around quite a bit, but to test out the idea can be done with current config. Just need to get the couch off the TR sleds to do it, so a bit of lifting.

No details yet, but i’ll see if i can try it out later this week 

Stay tuned


----------



## Magly

This looks interesting, the way you described the feeling more smooth and effortless is pretty much exactly what i experienced with the cantilevered um18s in free air without isos. 
with isos it kinda had a more sharp feeling and limited the range of motion in the lower frequencies i guess


----------



## BP1Fanatic

You're welcome guy!


----------



## Nalleh

Magly said:


> This looks interesting, the way you described the feeling more smooth and effortless is pretty much exactly what i experienced with the cantilevered um18s in free air without isos.
> with isos it kinda had a more sharp feeling and limited the range of motion in the lower frequencies i guess



That makes perfectly sense. And i would consider doing it your way, if i only had a BOSS cantilevered. But my VNF/BOSS combo is just to heavy to do it that way, it would fall backward, as you mentioned it being on the tipping point on yours. But the resulting function would be the same. I just use the air bags to offset the weight of the boxes 

You could say our setup are similar, only you have the VNF’s and BOSS seperated, while i have them combined 

I also completely agree with you that cantilevered gave much more effect in the single digits than the normal under the seat mounting.


----------



## Nalleh

Didn’t get any free time to test my idea this week, and don’t know if i will until next year. But no biggie 

Funny story:

So a ~ month ago i found a sale on the JBL’s, in sweden. Managed to finish the order, and a week later they sent me a mail, saying that they did not have enough in stock for my order, and wouldn’t get them until januar 2020. That’s ok, i replied, since they had a good price.

Fast forward to Black Friday, and the store here in Norway where i got my first JBL’s had a 50% off sale on them, even better, so i made the order there instead, and cancelled the order from Sweden.

Got a reply from the swedish store, saying that was no problem, BUT they had actually got the shipment of JBL’s THAT DAY!

Anyway, still cancelled, easier to order from Norway 

So, a couple days later i got a reply from the store in Norway, saying they did not have enough JBL’s in stock for my order, and had to wait for more !!!!

HAHAHA, karma right??

I am in no rush however, it’s winter up here, so i’ll wait. They said they will know more about delivery next week.

Oh, right... my order was for 16 JBL’s


----------



## Sekosche

Nalleh said:


> HAHAHA, karma right??
> 
> 
> 
> I am in no rush however, it’s winter up here, so i’ll wait. They said they will know more about delivery next week.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, right... my order was for 16 JBL’s



Haha that figures. You making an IB wall of subs with 16 JBL’s?! Or a BOSS mega riser?

I’m seriously debating selling all my HT toys for cheap and just starting over at the next house. Too bad you’re across the pond!


----------



## Nalleh

Sekosche said:


> Haha that figures. You making an IB wall of subs with 16 JBL’s?! Or a BOSS mega riser?
> 
> I’m seriously debating selling all my HT toys for cheap and just starting over at the next house. Too bad you’re across the pond!


Actually nothing specific planned, LOL. But i have been on the lookout for another sale on them for probably a year now, so i just scooped up "enough" now that i finally found a sale 

I got some plans to test some of them out in new FF subs, instead of my 18" i have now, maybe try some ported ones. We’ll see 

Nice to have a couple of them laying around, in case i wanna build something, LOL !


----------



## Magly

LOL 

I saw your pm, but I don't have enough posts to send pm's yet


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## vn800art

So, I don't know if I have understood well; up there in the northern Europe there will be an earthquake following the installation (not altogether, as it's been said) of 16+16 + the existing 12 if I am not wrong = 44 Jbl 12inches cones!
Unbelievable!
I don't want to follow the construction of this ordeal! Will unsubscribe immediately from the thread, otherwise I'll be consulting compulsively my phone's Tapatalk to read the hundreds posts that will be originated since!


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ LOL, no i cancelled the swedish order, so "just" 16 new ones 


Ok, so about the idea i had.....

This is based on two things.
1. From my early tests, i ended up with my BK’s under the front of my seats. This combined with the MA’s under the rear of the seats gave a good balance and let both devices work optimally. Alone, the BK’s was not as "feet only" feel as i feared, and when i built my TR Sleds, this was even less noticable. Why? Because on my old plattform, the hinge point the BK’s worked against was at the rear of the seat. But now with the new sleds, the hingepoint is ~2ft BEHIND the seat, since the sleds continue past the seats. This makes the movement from the BK’s more Z-axis, which is good.
2. On the TR sleds, the MA’s under the rear of seat has to work against a "soft ground" = the iso’s, so i question if they are optimal i this setup.

So here is the idea. Since the BK’s work so well under the front, what if i put the MA’s under the front, and move the BK’s under the rear of seat(cantilever)?
If i keep only the rearmost iso’s at the rear of TR Sleds, no iso’s under the middle of sled, where the BK’s would be, and have the MA’s under the front, this would make the MA’s work against a rigid ground, the BK’s would have some "flex" with no iso’s underneath, and the VNF’s would have the iso’s or air susp(as it is today) to work against.

So to test this, i moved the MA’s to the front, under the board that the BK’s are mounted on.

Like so.










This was just half the idea, and only the single layer MA’s, but it was easy to do. This made the BK’s kind of "inert" as they did not contribute to the total TR. But that was expected.










Some Viberry. Here is a sweep with just the VNF’s. New test is called "6Ma fr" on graph. Improved curve.










Here is the MA’s only. Nice improvement considering going from 2 layer to one.










And here is some content. New idea is worse, but this is practically without the BK’s, they added nothing here, and again: single layer MA’s.










Here is Z-axis. A bit surprised here but not a big deal.










And Y-axis also took a hit.











I expected the result to be worse, so no surprise there, but i wanted to know how it felt, and in that regard i would call it a success.

Doing the full test, with stacked MA’s and fully working BK’s will require a bigger reconfig of the sleds, with moving several of the boards, and i am going on a christmas holiday trip next week, so it will have to wait until next year


----------



## SBuger

Oh man, have to wait until next year!!!?? …good thing time flies and next year might just be right around the corner 

Seriously, right on, man!! Sounds like a fantastic plan to me and makes perfect sense  

Always thinking and pushin’ the boundaries my friend!! Great stuff as usual, keep it coming!!!


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Nalleh, you're killing it with all the different modifications! Don't ever stop!


----------



## Nalleh

Yeah, i think i must have a very high count of the "what if" gene, because i am always thinking : what if i try this, what if i test that, etc


----------



## SBuger

^^^ LOL yeah, I think I got a good bit of that gene too. I’ve got about 5 more things I’d like to try for TR in my current setup, but just haven’t been able to make myself start in again. I almost tried a couple of them last week, but then at the last minute, I thought to myself, am I freaking crazy, what more am I after here LOL?? …and opted not to touch anything and just went and enjoyed the heck out of some demoing and some more movies  Then there is that inner part of me that pushed me this far that makes me sometimes think “what if” like you and that I may not ever be quite ABSOLUTELY FULLY AND COMPLETELY 110% SATISFIED (although I LOVE what I have going now more than I ever have before) until I get so much TR and slam that it causes me to blackout or something hahahaha. The slam and TR in my system isn’t quite to that point yet (at the normal to lower levels I listen at anyway), so I KNOW there is still room for improvement LOL

I know things can always be better no matter how good it is, but like I was saying earlier, I think I’ve finally got my system’s TR and Bass closer to where I want it to be than ever before. So, I’ll just wait and see when I might start feeling the urge again to experiment and/or add more. Even though we’ve kinda gone about getting what we want from our TR in a bit different way recently, it’s still very inspiring to me to see what you’re up to and experimenting with next. I have already picked up an extra amp for experimenting and will probably try to pick up some extra BKs or something along the way too just because . We’ll see what happens. For now, though, I think I’m just gonna enjoy as is for a while longer with all the new BF 4K movie purchases and going through all the MCU’s in order. Heck, I think I’ve spent the last 3 days or so just watching and demoing Avatar 3D who knows how many hours trying to soak up all it has to offer. I just can seem to get enough of it, as you probably well know from all my recent posts about it in the BEQ thread!!! LOL

Oh yeah, there's the DIY big scope screen too that I’ve almost started on a few times as well. LOTS of things to build and mess with still when I get bored or that craving for ‘more’ becomes too strong again I guess hahahha

So I'm gonna _try_ to just enjoy what I've got going on now and let my "experimental/what if/need for "more" side of me" be lived vicariously through you for now


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Yup, you got it too, LOL.
That is what makes this hobby so fun: a little change here, a new idea here  Sometimes it doesn’t work, but sometimes a simple thing can make it better. And i love when that happens.
Hey, if we didn’t have that gene, we would still just have our MA’s and be happy as a clam, HAHA, not knowing any better 

And if you have just one TR device, it is easier optimizing it, just look at what the different iso’s did for improvements.
But if you Have several TR devices, there is a lot more combos that CAN work. Or NOT, LOL. And it is that nagging feeling: AM I TAPPING INTO ALL I CAN with the combo i got ???? THAT is what drives me, and i LOVE it, when some idea or some tuning makes it better. That like finding money !

But since i am going on a trip next week(monday in fact), and because of your raving reviews of Avatar, i am going to put my rig back to normal today and enjoy that movie, since i can’t wait until next year to experience it, LOL. So thanks for that, HAHA.

It’s not like i wasn’t happy with my setup as it was , LOL.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Very well put on all that, I couldn’t have said it better and agree 100%!!! 

Well, you’ll be a week ahead of me on your trip then, we leave the following Monday LOL

Have a great trip and Happy Holidays my good friend!!!

Oh yeah, cool on Avatar too!! Our rigs are similar enough that I know you’ll get the same kind of experience I got from it, maybe even better actually  Between the huge screen 3D effects in the Navi world (best I’ve seen hands down I think), BEQ and up-mixed 5.1 (carp was right on the money when he posted that in the BEQ thread about it), plus the love I’ve always had for that movie (I know not all folks feel the same way though), it’s one of the, if not THE best overall experiences I’ve had in my HT. As our systems continue to get better and better, it just seems to bring all that I mentioned out more and more for an even better amazing experience, which is way cool and makes the effort we put into our systems even more worth it     

It really just blows me away that to take an older movie that I've probably seen way too many times over the years, to be able to play it multiple times over this last week and I still just can't seem to get enough of it LOL . Something must be wrong with me!! Hahahaha


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Yeah, i ran out of time, but managed to watch half of Avatar today, and i agree : WWWOOOOOOW, WHAT A EXPERIENCE!!!
Like you i can NOT believe that nowadays with UHD, Atmos, HDR and what not, that a 10 year old movie !!!, JUST a bluray, JUST a 5.1 sound can BLOW MY MIND!!! AGAIN!!
This is unbelievable!! The picture is mindboggling clear and vivid, the upmixing is WAY better than most of the Atmos/DTS:X native tracks, and the 3D!!!! This IS THE 3D BENCHMARK !! And the crazy part ? Even today, 10 years later, IT STILL IS!! HOLY MOLY this is a cool A/V Experience 

When they take the first helicopter ride and over the waterfall: WOOW the wobbles, IT WAS TOTALLY CRAZZZZYY!! So cool  

I watched this scene, and several other again and again, LOL, my jaw was on the floor! And when those flying seeds landed all over him, YIKES the 3D was OFF THE SCREEN !!

Will watch the rest tomorrow, and probably 6 Underground too, that looks cool 

Happy holidays back at you, my good buddy


----------



## SBuger

^^^^ YESSSSSSSSS!!!!! I KNEW YOU WOULD BE BLOWN AWAY BY IT TOO!!!!   

Yeah man, all that you mention, just INSANE huh!!!!!!!!!!

It really is still the 3D benchmark, and that 5.1 upmixed sound, good god, yes way better than most native Atmos/DTS:X tracks!!!

Yeah, when they go over that waterfall in the helicopter ride, WOBBLE CITY huh!!! 

Also, yeah, the seeds and so many other places …. just mind-blowing 3D!!!! It just doesn’t get more real and mind blowing that that IMO & E. That whole area actually, from where he is sharpening that stick in the forest and Neytiri is up in the tree with her bow up to that point …just OMG WOW x10!!!!!   

Only halfway through …just wait, there is some more insane 3D and TR stuff coming too LOL. The area where they take Grace to the big tree and all the Navi are sitting together and swaying in circles, the TR will nearly knock you out of your seat and just feels SOOOOO COOL!!!! It’ll rock your world LOL 

Too many mind-blowing scenes to cover, (I could do this all day LOL), but this has to be HT REALISM AT ITS BEST!!!!!!! This is the kind of experiences us diehard TR and HT junkies live for right here, at least IMO it is


----------



## Nalleh

Yup, i agree, it is truly insane, in all aspect. And now i can’ wait see the rest 

Thing is, normally when watching a 3D movie, the effect is cool at the beginning, and then it wears off!!!

Avatar though just keeps getting better, and the WOWs just keeps coming !!

There are other really good 3D movies out there, but i don’t know of ONE, that does that 

And yes, there is constantly either 3D effects, surround/height effects or LFE/ULF effects that just keeps your jaw to the floor !!

LOVE, LOVE, LOVE IT !!


----------



## Arv

ryanmh1 said:


> FWIW, I have actually used the SLAPS, and put an extensive write up of my project over at Data-Bass. I haven't cross posted it here yet, but will when I have some time.



Ryan,
Have you posted that page of technical analysis that got wiped when you bumped the backspace key somewhere? I found your initial post on DB but did not find it anywhere. I'm sure a lot of people would like to see that since there's really not a lot of info on these SLAPS out there. Hope you have time to re-type all of that.





ryanmh1 said:


> In short, for people trying to build stuff with cheap JBLs, there is no point to using a SLAPS. It costs two or three times what the drivers do. Just add more drivers. On the other hand, the SLAPS make a lot of sense when you want an unreasonably low tune in a small box using an expensive driver where you can't just buy 4 more for $120.



I'm one of those people and I'm calling this project "Bass 1221" or "ULF 1221", I haven't decided yet  so I have 21 of these JBLs at home and 6 M12 SLAPS, I'm stacking them up as a Christmas tree and will post a pic here soon! 21 stacked makes a perfect tree, so I bought another one, LOL! We were all impressed by the results posted by Nalleh and Michael when utilizing these and with less JBLs. But your statement above seems to contradict what we've seen but it seems that you've spent a lot of time with these SLAPS so I'm sure you know what you're talking about and have that page of tech analysis to back your statements up. For me, like a lot of people, I was considering a magic cube of (3x3x3) 9 JBLs for a 4 Ohm load now SLAPS came along (courtesy of Nalleh) and the 2 JBLs +1 SLAPS was born. So I'd really like to see your data and how you obtained it so I can start building my boxes! Thx.


----------



## Nalleh

^^ He is not very active around here, but here is his thread on DB with info about SLAPS:

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/746-passive-radiator-project-or-captivator-in-a-tiny-box/

He was not contradicting that the SLAPS work great in a sub box for FR, it is the TR part he was skeptical about.


----------



## Arv

Nalleh said:


> ^^ He is not very active around here, but here is his thread on DB with info about SLAPS:
> 
> http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/746-passive-radiator-project-or-captivator-in-a-tiny-box/
> 
> He was not contradicting that the SLAPS work great in a sub box for FR, it is the TR part he was skeptical about.



Yup found that post on data-bass last night. That's where he referred to the backspace fumble that erased a page of tech. analysis. I like what he said about the tuning of the PR also goes down as you push it! On his post here, I got the part about the non-linearity of the SLAPS hence unsuitable for TR.


But quoted below is where he explains why he thinks(his data) that its better to just get/use more JBLs. Did I get what he was trying to say wrong :-( ?





ryanmh1 said:


> To hit 10Hz, you would need a pair of JBL drivers with a pair of 10" SLAPS weighted to 1200g. This would give you 90dB of output at 2M groundplane. I*t's also mostly a waste of your time. 4 JBLs sealed will get you almost the same output, in the same space, with more output below tune, at less cost.* I could play with the models more, but it didn't look very favorable to me. Low tuned passive radiator systems demand about 30mm of suspension travel from the active driver to avoid bottoming it.
> * In short, for people trying to build stuff with cheap JBLs, there is no point to using a SLAPS. It costs two or three times what the drivers do. Just add more drivers.* On the other hand, the SLAPS make a lot of sense when you want an unreasonably low tune in a small box using an expensive driver where you can't just buy 4 more for $120.



BTW, what's new on your end? Now I understand why DD has that hashtag! LOL.


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Got it 

Well, i posted this in another thread, i guess i can put it here too:

"Let’s take it from the top.
In Winisd the "ported" option looks good for sound/FR and that is what Winisd is for (Not TR).
Both ported and PR have similar pros and cons, they flatten the FR curve, less peaky up top and more effective around tune. And they drop of faster below tune than a sealed would, because of phase shift between the driver and port/PR.

So used as VNF, a ported and PR behave similar, and the fact that the active driver moves the least around tune is irrelevant, because that is exactly where the port/PR is most effective, adding to sound/FR/SPL.

Here is a close mic measurement of the JBL/PR in REW, one on the JBL driver(black) and the other on the PR(yellow). This looks like it should for a ported/PR. This is NO EQ, so a flat signal(sealed box for comparison is red).










And here is how it looks for FR after EQ. This is from the MLP with JBL/PR placed VNF. I had to use less EQ on the JBL/PR because of the things mentioned above, and had no problem integrating the JBL/PR (blue)with the rest of my subs, as can be seen in the black curve, extension well below 10hz.










That was for FR/ sound.
Let’s move to the TR "sideeffect bonus" of this config.

So, putting the PR option into Winidsp it seems to work not as good for TR.
Here is exursion on the JBL, sealed vs PR.
This is typical behavior when using ported/PR. Clearly not as linear as sealed.

(Sorry for the weak blue colour)










And here is exursion on the SLAPS. Very peaky around tune, and not exactly linear.










And here is SPL on sealed vs PR.
PR looks flatter, but drops faster below tune.










So in the Viberry thread i showed what happened when i put the sensor ON the cone of the different subs. These aren’t technically mm excursion, but it meaures how much the cone moves, so it is a good indicator of it.
These are all with NO EQ, so a flat signal.
Just for reference, here is one SI18Mk1 sealed box. Note dip down low! This dip has shown up on everybodys Viberry AND VS measurements to date, so don’t read to much into it.










Here is the JBL cone. Same dip down low, and as expected a dip around tune.










And here is where things differ from Winisd, excursion of the PR. It is not NEARLY as peaky as on paper, however same dip down low, as expected, but for TR i would call this a pretty ok rising house curve.
And guess what: this also mimics how it feels 










And here are a couple of Viberry measurement playing real content, San Andreas:










The Meg:










I think it looks pretty ok, and if the dB scale to the left is any indication, i would say both intensity and extension works pretty good 

To say i am happy with it is a understatement 

Using a PR BOSS solution makes the FR and TR kind of "locked" together. But you still have DSP control. Only when adjusting EQ for FR it also affects TR and visa versa. This also include delay/phase.

So there is three ways of doing this.

1. EQ for FR and let TR be whatever the result is.
2. EQ for TR and let FR be whatever the result is.
3. Make a compromise of both.
Depending on what other TR devices, VNF, NF and FF’s you have, these could all be viable options.

I went for option 1 and the resulting TR was great, so no further action was required 

And IF you feel the FR is great, but TR is a bit much (what blasphemy!!), you could try isolators between VNF box and plattform, to dampen TR while keeping FR.
OR, if TR is great, but VNF are a bit much(even more blasphemy!! ), you could move the VNF’s a couple inches further away from your back. "

We are dealing with the basic differences between sealed and ported/PR here. If you have a set enclosure volume to go on and unlimited amp & drivers: Go sealed and stuff it with as many drivers and as much amp as you can.
Are you limited in the amp or driver area, use Ported/PR to get most out of each watt/driver.

Also he is calculating one SLAPS pr JBL, which is way overkill! This is where the 2JBL’s pr SLAPS is genious, as suddenly the SLAPS are cheaper pr JBL than the JBL’s themself, i.e 2JBL1SLAPS is cheaper than 4JBL’s sealed, and requires less amp. And even another bonus is you don’t have to change the box! Just use the sealed one you have, as i did


----------



## Arv

"Both ported and PR have similar pros and cons, they flatten the FR curve, less peaky up top and more effective around tune. "


I've seen the similar increase in response in the graphs posted between 20-40Hz with SLAPS in use. The one and only thing that I don't like about the PR is that deep notch right below the tuning freq.


"And they drop of faster below tune than a sealed would, because of phase shift between the driver and port/PR."


As far as I remember as you approach port/PR tuning freq, the port/PR is already at 90 deg. out of phase but this is still an additive effect and by the time you reach about a third octave down its completely out of phase.


"Also he is calculating one SLAPS pr JBL, which is way overkill! This is where the 2JBL’s pr SLAPS is genious, as suddenly the SLAPS are cheaper pr JBL than the JBL’s themself, i.e 2JBL1SLAPS is cheaper than 4JBL’s sealed, and requires less amp."


*All you had to say what this! ^^^ Kudos to you Nalleh! But you are always very helpful and go the extra mile to help people out! More power to you Man!!!* That's why I was asking Ryan for more info, I wasn't getting why his results were contradictory to yours and Michael's. Thanks for all the additional info, I'll digest all this later. Just been really busy, expecting family for the Holidays tomorrow.



"And even another bonus is you don’t have to change the box! Just use the sealed one you have, as i did"


This is the beauty of SLAPS that you don't have the extra volume needed compared to a ported alignment specially w/low tuning. Last ported sub I built tuned to 15hz had dual 4" J-shaped ports and that took up a lot of space. No port compression though .


I think I'm building my boxes as I want them to be as small as possible without sacrificing too much SPL and low end FR.


From your modelling, what's the optimum size for a 2JBL+1SLAPS?


Thx again!


----------



## Nalleh

^ Well, i have tried two SLAPS configs, both in the same box i built from the start, which is 4cu ft.

Nr one was the 2JBL1 SLAPS setup, i actually tried that one in both frontfiring and later downfiring. This gave each JBL 2cu ft, and a flatter curve. This replaced the 12x sealed JBL, and was actually plenty. Maybe not as much max SPL, but not a problem the way i set them up. It actually provided more TR than the sealed version.

The reason i had just the two boxes each with 2JBL1SLAPS was i used the remaining 8 of the JBL for BOSS duty. And that worked great, but i just felt the JBL’s pumping free air was a waste of good SPL, which lead to :

Nr two is the version today: 4JBL2 SLAPS per box. I simply put all JBL’s back in the three boxes and put two SLAPS downfiring in each. This gives each JBL 1cu ft, but the sheer number of drivers outweight any downsides to smaller boxes. Instead of a total of 4 JBL’s and 2 SLAPS, I now have 12 JBL’s and 6 SLAPS. And of course all the SLAPS versions was placed ON the TR Sleds for maximum effect from the TR the SLAPS was making. This way i get the max nearfield effect from all 12 JBL’s acting more like a planar wave than omnidirectional, great SPL addition to the whole LFE track, and amazing TR from the DF SLAPS. Win-win.

If you plan to make the most out of any subwwoofer and built from scratch, use Winisd to optimize the enclosure. Aron had some great contributions earlier in this thread with the SLAPS, but i ended up just using the boxes i already had. Which probably leaves a bit on the table, as they are small.

Take a look:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-w...ranken-atmos-living-room-19.html#post57849104


----------



## Arv

Nalleh,
So I looked at the link above and read through it and led me to other pages, I haven't read this much for such a long time! I also read through Aron's PR analysis on this thread.
So your current set-up is with the 4JBLs +2SLAPS, do you happen to have a comparison of the measurements between this and just the 4JBLs sealed? Like not even touching your MV or EQ comparison? This way we can see how much less EQ and power is needed with SLAPS. I know you took measurements with just the 2JBLs + 1SLAPS but obviously that's not apples to apples due to the load/power difference like you said.


Also, I don't recall anyone on those posts mention the effect of wiring in series or parallel when drivers are sharing a box. As far as I know you're supposed to wire drivers sharing an enclosure in parallel to minimize the effect of back EMF produced by one driver to another which can lead to identical drivers performing differently, I don't think the effect is really that much but you're trying to maximize your system so I thought I'd mention it. 



Thx!


----------



## Nalleh

^^ I am still on vacation, but i am not sure i have measurements directly comparing both their native response pre-EQ. I can look into it when i get some time 
However, IIRC i used ~10dB of Low Shelf on the sealed version to get it flat, while i now just use a single 5dB LS to get the same.

About the EMF thing, i have no idea  In my case i have no choise because of the amp i use. I can only go down to 4ohm, so with 4 JBL’s per channel, it has to be series-parallel for a 4 ohm load. With 6 JBL’s per channels, as i use now, it has to be series-parallel again for a 6 ohm total load.

I am not aware of anyone thinking about anything else than amp load when wiring up several drivers, even in same box.

But again i have to "warn" about designing a sub with SLAPS: my use is very special and exploits something normally regarded as a con about sub properties, and my "design" should not be used as a template for a "normal" sub.
I did not do any "designing" as such, i just used the boxes i had (not optimal) and i "abuse" them for TR.
The benefits of a SLAPS sub should be much greater if designed correct from the start. Like Ryan’s example.

If i were to try to build farfield subs with SLAPS, i would use bigger boxes, probably at least 2 cu ft pr driver, and dual opposed SLAPS, to cancel box vibrations.
For example, a 8 cu ft sub tower with 4 JBL’s on the front baffle and one SLAPS on each side. Or a lower "fatter" box with 2 JBL’s front baffle, 2 on the rear and SLAPS on each side. Very inert box


----------



## Nalleh

Posted this in the TR thread, but i guess i can put it here too, a little TR for you 

"Not even sure i can top those last videos, because they were "unsane" but it looked like fun, so i had to " wet my couch" too, LOL.
MV at -20dB, which is my normal movie level. So i got some left in the tank, but approaching ludicrous levels, HAHA.

13 Hours, 1st wave clip:






EOT intro clip. Harmony remote kind of airborn and look at the Mac at the end, LOL.






(Note my little comment at the end of the clip! Didn’t know i said that until i watched the video after, LOL)"


----------



## gpmbc

Sooo tactile! 

if you were redesigning you’re VNFs, would you keep them pretty much as is or increase cubic volume? I ask because I read where you said you were already reaching the limits with minimal power. I figure a bigger box will cause the boxes to reach excursion even easier unless that applies more so to sealed.


----------



## Nalleh

gpmbc said:


> Sooo tactile!
> 
> if you were redesigning you’re VNFs, would you keep them pretty much as is or increase cubic volume? I ask because I read where you said you were already reaching the limits with minimal power. I figure a bigger box will cause the boxes to reach excursion even easier unless that applies more so to sealed.


Yeah, these boxes have been trough some modifications since i first built them. So today i would build them differently. First of all the angle to the seat back isn’t optimal, more slant to fit even closer to the seat. And second bigger boxes. There is a lot more to consider in this special case of VNF/BOSS, so i would exploit more of the space i have available behind the couch. 2cu ft pr driver would give them more low end. Midbass is in surplus no matter what, with these many drivers 

The fact that you need less watt the bigger the box, is just because they are more efficient  With small boxes you just have to "power through " .


----------



## gpmbc

I ordered 2 more SLAPs today so total of 6. I already had enough JBLs. Regarding slant, do you recline almost all the way back when you’re sitting? For cubic feet I’ll be at least 6 cubic feet total maybe a little more.


----------



## DesertDog

gpmbc said:


> I ordered 2 more SLAPs today so total of 6. I already had enough JBLs. Regarding slant, do you recline almost all the way back when you’re sitting? For cubic feet I’ll be at least 6 cubic feet total maybe a little more.


You're not allowed anymore. We just got what you have dialed in! Anyway I think your wife is onto the tricks now and isn't going to fall for it again.


----------



## gpmbc

LOL she actually will be happy to see the pile of JBL boxes disappear from the garage.


----------



## Nalleh

gpmbc said:


> I ordered 2 more SLAPs today so total of 6. I already had enough JBLs. Regarding slant, do you recline almost all the way back when you’re sitting? For cubic feet I’ll be at least 6 cubic feet total maybe a little more.


Ok, so 6 SLAPS and how many JBL’s then?

Yeah, i recline pretty much all the time when watching, but the clue is to find the best angle on the front of the box for both upright and reclined. My seat is a bit finicky in that department as they move both the upper shoulder part and the bottom back part, so i had to take a middle ground. Only talking about a couple inches wrong here, but VNF is supposed to be close, LOL.

6cu ft ? Is that total volume for all the box(es) intended or per box?


----------



## gpmbc

12 JBLs, good to know regarding the angle. 6 cubic feet min for 4) JBLs so at least 1.5 cubic feet per driver.


----------



## Nalleh

gpmbc said:


> 12 JBLs, good to know regarding the angle. 6 cubic feet min for 4) JBLs so at least 1.5 cubic feet per driver.


Ok, sounds good then


----------



## gpmbc

I know added mass is beneficial in a BOSS application for increased tactile response into single digits. Would mass added to the cones of the JBLs prove beneficial when used with the SLAPs?


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ I do not know.

I haven’t ventured into such experiments so far.


----------



## DesertDog

I don't think it's going to do much for them if they're not being used for TR and might reduce their output since it's now having to move more mass than designed.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> I don't think it's going to do much for them if they're not being used for TR and might reduce their output since it's now having to move more mass than designed.


Agreed. Besides, in a SLAPS setup, much better to just load up the SLAPS. That is what they are for


----------



## Nalleh

Just got in a shipment of JBL’s today, all 120lbs of it 










And i got 4 more earlier, so that equal 15 units 










Yes, i know 15 is a odd number. I ordered 16, and through a lot of fumbling and wrong inventory this is what i got. Frustrating, i know, and now they are no longer in stock at the Norwegian store and no longer on sale at the Swedish store, so......


----------



## gpmbc

What’s the plan for the new drivers?


----------



## Nalleh

gpmbc said:


> What’s the plan for the new drivers?


You can never have too many JBL’s, man 

I mainly just took advantage of the sale on BF, and i ordered enough to play a little 

I have also ordered more SLAPS, as i wanted to try them as farfields, built more like a normal sub, LOL.

But also maybe test more with them as boss and innertubes around them, also known as hoverboss.

And then there is the Nano Devastator, and maybe try a proper ported version.

Lot of stuff you can do with a good sub driver 

Oh, and i may also try converting my sonos to ported


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> You can never have too many JBL’s, man
> 
> I mainly just took advantage of the sale on BF, and i ordered enough to play a little
> 
> I have also ordered more SLAPS, as i wanted to try them as farfields, built more like a normal sub, LOL.
> 
> But also maybe test more with them as boss and innertubes around them, also known as hoverboss.
> 
> And then there is the Nano Devastator, and maybe try a proper ported version.
> 
> Lot of stuff you can do with a good sub driver
> 
> Oh, and i may also try converting my sonos to ported


I thought you had decided to go all in and was converting your house's foundation to a BOSS.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> I thought you had decided to go all in and was converting your house's foundation to a BOSS.


Yeah, a HoverHouse !


----------



## gattaca

^^^^ Hmmm.. So when's the structural engineer showing up? Let's not tempt???


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## BP1Fanatic

Looks like Groundhog's Day ($29 JBL 12 thread)!


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, got another test done today. So last time i got too big(fat) tubes to use as iso’s, so the other day i got the more correct 16" X 1.75", and then i could put them under the whole TR Sleds, front and rear. So full air ride 

There is some tweaking to do with finding the best air pressure, and i still don’t have proper pressure gauge, LOL. So a bit by feel so far.

But here is a Viberry of a scene i have done before, from The Martian, and the launch late in the movie. Same settings as before on the rig. White curve is old Hudson iso setup, and yellow curve is from today. New record: ~143dB/1.5G ish(red circle) compared to the old ~136dB/0.6G.

Rather nice upgrade  But I need to get a meter to read the air pressure, LOL.


----------



## gpmbc

Impressive, so are the inner tubes used in conjunction with the ISOs or by themselves? How many inner tubes total?


----------



## Nalleh

gpmbc said:


> Impressive, so are the inner tubes used in conjunction with the ISOs or by themselves? How many inner tubes total?


The iso’s are still there, but the tubes are pumped up past them, so they are not touching the floor. All air ride 

I have 4 tubes now, one in each corner if you will. However, the boards i have the tubes under is narrower than 16", so i simply used duct tape to shape the tubes into more of a figure 8.
Here is a pic where you can see the tubes protruding in front of the sleds, and you can barely see the duct tape in the middle of each tube too.


----------



## DesertDog

gpmbc said:


> Impressive, so are the inner tubes used in conjunction with the ISOs or by themselves? How many inner tubes total?


If you're looking to do it keep the isos in place like Nalleh did for safety. They're your fallback if the tube gets punctured or bursts.


----------



## Nalleh

Next week’s project.

Now that i got a new load of JBL’s i can test hoverboss. So i will use the boards i used to mount 4 JBL’s in this pic:










Only move them under the sleds and downfiring, and then put inner tubes around the drivers to seal against the floor. Basically converting the JBL’s to air pumps, LOL.

I’ll see if i there is room for more while i am under there


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, time for an overhaul 

I had done this earlier, but not as thorough as this time.

So, here is the subject of the lube job today 










So, it is just 4 bolts to loosen, and maybe a little tap with a plastic mallet to part the two sides, and it looks like this. It is glued together.










To get the cylinder out of the remaining half side, to NOT bend on it, instead use the same plastic/runner mallet and hit it on the corners of the housing, like in this pic, while holding it on the cylinder, just inches above the work bench.










Remove the piston from the cylinder by pushing on it from one end. The magnet is resisting this, so you need to push hard, and it will release.

Dry off any lube remaining, and relube with a white lithium grease, or as i did a lithium moly grease. Point is to make it slippery  Apply grease liberally on the piston AND inside the cylinder all over the sliding surfaces.










Then it is just a matter of putting the piston back, wipe any excess grease, and assemble the rest in reverse order.










Pay attention to get the cylinder seated correctly, as glue resedue might get in the way, and check that the two housing halves is seated properly, before tightening the bolts again. Done.


----------



## gpmbc

Nice tutorial and perfect timing. I recently bought one used and just from handling, i can hear the tendency for the piston to hit the housing. Didn’t you also have some rubber in place at one time to quiet in the event of bottoming?


----------



## Nalleh

gpmbc said:


> Nice tutorial and perfect timing. I recently bought one used and just from handling, i can hear the tendency for the piston to hit the housing. Didn’t you also have some rubber in place at one time to quiet in the event of bottoming?


Correct, you can see those rubber feets in pic nr 2, if you zoom a bit. As you can see the piston already has some rubber on the ends, but that mod still helps a lot on the bottoming noise


----------



## Nalleh

Operation HoverBoss.

Ok, so this will not be pretty, LOL. My once pristine TR Sleds have already been converted so many time, it is full of holes, HAHA. 

My poor stripped out sled :










The problem is the space needed for the tubes between all drivers, and i had my earlier cantilever boss drivers as tight as posssible, to make the sleds as small as possible.
But by using a bigger 24" tube instead of 16" tubes i could cover two driver with one tube. Still needed space between each row, but some spacer boards fixed that.

So to convert to HoverBoss i managed to repurpose all previously used wood bits, so it looks like a mess, but this way i could test it rather quick. 










So i started with 6 drivers, mounted and ready for tubes.










Tubes in place and hose excentions for filling outside of sled.










Turned over and all connected. Now there is not only lots of speaker wires, but air hoses too, LOL.










Not done any testing yet, just some sine waves to check if it all works, and yup, this does feel promising,  

More to come


----------



## DesertDog

You should make a 2nd sled for the experiments and swap them out. The wood is cheap for it and it would make life easier.


----------



## Phillihp23

How often do you have to air up your JBL,s? Ever gotten a flat?


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> You should make a 2nd sled for the experiments and swap them out. The wood is cheap for it and it would make life easier.


I would rather use this one as testbed, in case it need changes underway. If i am not happy, and need to go back, i just reconfigure it back. If i build a new one, and then need to change it again after testing, then the new one will have to be modified. Better to do the testing on the old geeser  Unlike a lot of other guys, i don’t build it "done" at first try, so i don’t do the stain/paint etc, until i am truly done.



Phillihp23 said:


> How often do you have to air up your JBL,s? Ever gotten a flat?


Uhhm, i don’t air up the JBL’s(drivers), LOL. I air up the innertubes surrounding the JBL’s. And if you do the excention hoses right, you shouldn’t have any air leaks.

That being said, it is way to early to say what pressure to use, i need more testing. But it is easy to alter pressure with it like this, as i just grab the hose with valve on it an adjust, up or down. No need to lift the plattform.

I did however have a flat earlier, as the innertubes laid against one of the iso’s, and since both are rubber’ish, it resulted in a puncture. No worries, i had more in stock, LOL.


----------



## gpmbc

Getting ready to tend to this. Before I forget, does that N on the bottom need to face up or down? I didn’t pay attention when I took it out. Also, the clank I heard was not from the piston but it was dry anyways and needs grease it’s from the case that holds the piston hitting the outer case. Can I put a little weather stripping or rubber where the arrow points to without interfering with operation? Diggin your new tube set up btw. What made you want BOSS drivers again underneath in addition to SLAPS? I’m sure the answer is “because I can” LOL but maybe there is something you felt was missing.


----------



## Nalleh

gpmbc said:


> Getting ready to tend to this. Before I forget, does that N on the bottom need to face up or down? I didn’t pay attention when I took it out. Also, the clank I heard was not from the piston but it was dry anyways and needs grease it’s from the case that holds the piston hitting the outer case. Can I put a little weather stripping or rubber where the arrow points to without interfering with operation? Diggin your new tube set up btw. What made you want BOSS drivers again underneath in addition to SLAPS? I’m sure the answer is “because I can” LOL but maybe there is something you felt was missing.


The N label faced up on all mine, so up when the BK stand on the floor on its mounts.
Thanks for the pic of the cork pads on the piston ends. I guess they had that before going to rubber pads 
Yeah, if the motor is loose in the housing, you can shim it a bit, but i suspect very little is needed. You could try with some strips of tape or something similar thin, to tighen it up a bit.

Well, i have tried multiple versions of boss before, but compared to a normal boss, the SLAPS works better.

But in my head, this hoverboss kind of convert the principle from a mass shaker, to a air pump, and it just seems like a much more efficient way of making movement. Time will tell if that is the case.


----------



## gpmbc

Thanks for the feedback and I’ll be following along for sure.


----------



## Nalleh

More work. In testing yesterday, i heard a lot of air leaks under the tubes from the drivers pumping. I don’t have carpet floors, i have hardwood.
Also if you noticed on last pics i turned the 2x4 around so it was 4" tall instead of earlier laying flat= 2". This was so the JBL’s under the seat would clear the seat frame.

This of course makes the sleds 2"+ taller. And i don’t like that, so i found a way to continue using them flat, or 2".
I rotated the JBL’s under the seat, so they clear the frame and fits up IN the frame.










And to seal the tubes better, i used speaker box carpet under the sled.










This also solved the squeeking the tubes made against the wood sled.










And tubes back on. Not as symmetric, but purely cosmetic, and doesn’t show under the sleds anyway 











And i will also use the same fabric, or a carpet under the sled, to seal against the floor.

A little more testing earlier today, these tings are totally iiiinsane!! The headroom is simply off the charts, 4 hz is like riding a horse, LOL!! That test was before i made todays mods, so there was a lot of blowing noises, LOL, as air escaped everywhere under and over the tubes, but there wasn’t any signs of the JBL’s giving in. 

Funny note. At first i thought it felt very gimmicky and strange. Since i now have the JBL’s in correct downfiring position, the concensous is to have them in phase, so i did. But then i tried them inverted, and VOILA, there it was, it was like night and day, LOL. Also, they produce a lot more SPL than i thought they would, being so tiny "boxes«, LOL.


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> More work. In testing yesterday, i heard a lot o air leaks from the drivers pumping. I don’t have carpet floors, i have hardwood.
> Also if you noticed on last pics i turned the 2x4 around so it was 4" tall instead of earlier laying flat= 2". This was so the JBL’s under the seat would clear the seat frame.
> 
> This of course makes the sleds 2"+ taller. And i don’t like that, so i found a way to continue using them flat, or 2".
> I rotated the JBL’s under the seat, so they clear the frame and fits up IN the frame.
> 
> And i will also use the same fabric, or a carpet under the sled, to seal against the floor.
> 
> A little more testing earlier today, these tings are totally iiiinsane!! The headroom is simply off the charts, 4 hz is like riding a horse, LOL!! That test was before i made todays mods, so there was a lot of blowing noises, LOL, as air escaped everywhere under and over the tubes, but there wasn’t any signs of the JBL’s giving in.
> 
> Funny note. At first i thought it felt very gimmicky and strange. Since i now have the JBL’s in correct downfiring position, the concensous is to have them in phase, so i did. But then i tried them inverted, and VOILA, there it was, it was like night and day, LOL. Also, they produce a lot more SPL than i thought they would, being so tiny "boxes«, LOL.


Nice! When you say it's insane was that with it having the air leaks or after you added the carpet? I was a little unclear on that point. Also, running into any issues with the 2x4 on top of the ply? I'm thinking of doing mine that way when I rebuild. I'm hoping to be able to get a bunch done on mine this weekend.


----------



## m0j0

Nalleh said:


> More work. In testing yesterday, i heard a lot o air leaks from the drivers pumping. I don’t have carpet floors, i have hardwood.
> Also if you noticed on last pics i turned the 2x4 around so it was 4" tall instead of earlier laying flat= 2". This was so the JBL’s under the seat would clear the seat frame.
> 
> This of course makes the sleds 2"+ taller. And i don’t like that, so i found a way to continue using them flat, or 2".
> I rotated the JBL’s under the seat, so they clear the frame and fits up IN the frame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And to seal the tubes better, i used speaker box fabric under the sled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This also sloved the squeeking the tubes made against the wood sled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And tubes back on. Not as symmetric, but purely cosmetic, and doesn’t show under the sleds anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And i will also use the same fabric, or a carpet under the sled, to seal against the floor.
> 
> A little more testing earlier today, these tings are totally iiiinsane!! The headroom is simply off the charts, 4 hz is like riding a horse, LOL!! That test was before i made todays mods, so there was a lot of blowing noises, LOL, as air escaped everywhere under and over the tubes, but there wasn’t any signs of the JBL’s giving in.
> 
> Funny note. At first i thought it felt very gimmicky and strange. Since i now have the JBL’s in correct downfiring position, the concensous is to have them in phase, so i did. But then i tried them inverted, and VOILA, there it was, it was like night and day, LOL. Also, they produce a lot more SPL than i thought they would, being so tiny "boxes«, LOL.


I have also recently switched my BOSS to inverted and have been happy with the results so far.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Nice! When you say it's insane was that with it having the air leaks or after you added the carpet? I was a little unclear on that point. Also, running into any issues with the 2x4 on top of the ply? I'm thinking of doing mine that way when I rebuild. I'm hoping to be able to get a bunch done on mine this weekend.


Yes, that was before i mounted the carpet, it is much quiter and better now. The carpet also helped where it was very thight between tubes and drivers, and eliminated any squeeks. Still no carpet between the tubes and floor, will do that tomorrow.



m0j0 said:


> I have also recently switched my BOSS to inverted and have been happy with the results so far.


Indeed. I think hoverboss converts the movement again, to in sync with driver movements.


----------



## Magly

Nalleh said:


> Since i now have the JBL’s in correct downfiring position, the concensous is to have them in phase, so i did. But then i tried them inverted, and VOILA, there it was, it was like night and day, LOL. Also, they produce a lot more SPL than i thought they would, being so tiny "boxes«, LOL.


That's what I noticed aswell after adding the BK's they would cancel out the hoverboss but worked well with the regular boss, so I tried a lot of delay and it kinda worked but the delay was very noticable with music so I removed the delay and inverted the hoverboss and VOILA LOL


----------



## SBuger

Yes, an update!!!  . Sounds promising and great so far!!! Yeah, I too was surprised how much SPL those JBLs in the tiny sealed enclosures produce.


----------



## Nalleh

Couple more pics.

By rotating the two forward ones under the seat, i could make them fit within the square seat frame without increasing height. I can’t believe i didn’t think of this earlier, LOL.










It isn’t a world of space, but enough to recline and move around 










And the cantilever ones. Actually struggling with too little weight on these as air presssure from the drivers escapes under the tubes, LOL.











A new day tomorrow


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Also, running into any issues with the 2x4 on top of the ply? I'm thinking of doing mine that way when I rebuild. I'm hoping to be able to get a bunch done on mine this weekend.


Forgot to answer this one.

Not sure what issues you are thinking about, but in my case: no 
It is a genious material to use as a frame, and in my case i needed more height than a sheet of plywood or mdf would give. Since i expected a lot of experimenting, nothing is glued on yet, screws only, so i was a bit worried about movement and squeeks from the screw mounting, but solid as a rock so far  And of course it is very strong and stable, and good material to screw into.

And i find it a bit easier to build a frame with sheets/board where needed, rather than multiple full sheets to get the right height/thickness.


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> Forgot to answer this one.
> 
> Not sure what issues you are thinking about, but in my case: no
> It is a genious material to use as a frame, and in my case i needed more height than a sheet of plywood or mdf would give. Since i expected a lot of experimenting, nothing is glued on yet, screws only, so i was a bit worried about movement and squeeks from the screw mounting, but solid as a rock so far  And of course it is very strong and stable, and good material to screw into.
> 
> And i find it a bit easier to build a frame with sheets/board where needed, rather than multiple full sheets to get the right height/thickness.


Ah, sorry, thought you'd know what I meant. In my rebuild I've been thinking of putting the frame on top of the plywood like what you did instead of under it to make tube placement easier. I'm running into sizing issues the other way. I wasn't sure though if it would give different feel or be worse structurally since the ply will be getting pulled down from the frame instead of being pushed into it. 

I think I'm going to be able to get the rest of my cuts done tomorrow and then be able to start playing with it some over the weekend.


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> And the cantilever ones. Actually struggling with too little weight on these as air presssure from the drivers escapes under the tubes, LOL.


Instead of the drivers in the cantilevered part like that are you going to try putting the VNFs with the slaps on it?


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Ah, sorry, thought you'd know what I meant. In my rebuild I've been thinking of putting the frame on top of the plywood like what you did instead of under it to make tube placement easier. I'm running into sizing issues the other way. I wasn't sure though if it would give different feel or be worse structurally since the ply will be getting pulled down from the frame instead of being pushed into it.
> 
> I think I'm going to be able to get the rest of my cuts done tomorrow and then be able to start playing with it some over the weekend.


Ahh, ok. No, i don’t see any issues doing the frame above the plywood. As you say it simplifies getting the tubes around the drivers, and frame will be hidden under the couch anyway. Go for it, keep it simple 



DesertDog said:


> Instead of the drivers in the cantilevered part like that are you going to try putting the VNFs with the slaps on it?


Yes, i am thinking i can remove the two rearmost JBL’s in the slead, and mount the VNF with DF SLAPS on the slead over those two holes, sealing the opening from above on the sled. The increased stroke of the SLAPS COULD be a advantage, but since it also helps produce SPL(it is the port of the box after all, and i will kind of be plugging it) i might loose SPL doing it that way. But it should be easy to test it. Aside from doing REW in both scenarios i was also thinking of taping the Viberry sensor to the JBL and SLAPS cones in both too, to monitor excurison.

If it doesn’t work, i’ll just use the hoverboss as is, and mount the VNF on top 

Then i’ll be back to 4 TR devices, LOL.

Excess is just enough, HAHA.


----------



## Nalleh

LOL, HoverBoss is just ridicolous !! Holy Testicle Tuesday, the excursion you get from these are second to none, MA’s can’t match this, LOL!! And the single digits? Oh yeah man, All the way down to 3.5hz is like driving a tractor in high gear right through the forest road, HAHAHA.
UNBELIVABLE !!

I do however have 6x JBL per seat, so there is some firepower, two of them per NU6K channel. 

Couple videos. This is at MV -30dB, hoverboss only, and they are actually turned down in the minidsp. 10hz. PS: only one seat/sled is done, so it jiggles a bit sideways too, LOL.






4hz. Listen how it blows at the microfone at the end there, LOL, the sled is to light with no load


----------



## Magly

Nice

Are you going to mount the BK's in the back of the seat like I have them? seems like there is not enough room in the front where you had them under the seats


----------



## Nalleh

Magly said:


> Nice
> 
> Are you going to mount the BK's in the back of the seat like I have them? seems like there is not enough room in the front where you had them under the seats


Yes, i am going to mimic what you, @m0j0 and @SBuger did, and direct mount them on the rear of seat 
I just didn’t have time to do that too now.


----------



## SBuger

@Nalleh - WICKED!!!  So how much air pressure you got in your tubes now?


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> Yes, i am thinking i can remove the two rearmost JBL’s in the slead, and mount the VNF with DF SLAPS on the slead over those two holes, sealing the opening from above on the sled. The increased stroke of the SLAPS COULD be a advantage, but since it also helps produce SPL(it is the port of the box after all, and i will kind of be plugging it) i might loose SPL doing it that way. But it should be easy to test it. Aside from doing REW in both scenarios i was also thinking of taping the Viberry sensor to the JBL and SLAPS cones in both too, to monitor excurison.
> 
> If it doesn’t work, i’ll just use the hoverboss as is, and mount the VNF on top
> 
> Then i’ll be back to 4 TR devices, LOL.
> 
> Excess is just enough, HAHA.


Hmm, I hadn't thought of sealing them down like that. It seems like it would hurt the effectiveness of the SLAPS for their normal use. The question is if the sealing out weighs that loss. Does that put the drivers that are firing into you seats too low? Any thoughts on putting the boxes on legs to give the SLAPS clearance? I have mine on legs that put them about 8" above the frame. That puts the boxes at about the top of my couch so that the drivers are chest high.


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> @Nalleh - WICKED!!!  So how much air pressure you got in your tubes now?


I am at about 4.5 psi now. Haven’t tested with different pressures yet, but it is lifted well of the iso with that pressure, so its all air bags, baby 



DesertDog said:


> Hmm, I hadn't thought of sealing them down like that. It seems like it would hurt the effectiveness of the SLAPS for their normal use. The question is if the sealing out weighs that loss. Does that put the drivers that are firing into you seats too low? Any thoughts on putting the boxes on legs to give the SLAPS clearance? I have mine on legs that put them about 8" above the frame. That puts the boxes at about the top of my couch so that the drivers are chest high.


Yeah, i thought that was that you asked about  Yes, i will and can try using the SLAPS as hoverboss, but it is a experiment for sure, no telling how that will works  I started with those VNF’s on the floor behind me, so it will work for sure 
But like i said, if it doesn’t work, i’ll just put back the two jbl’s in those holes and mount the VNF/SLAPS on top of them(with legs), like i had before


----------



## SBuger

Dude, go check out that scene in Dark Phoenix where Gene goes to see her dad and confronts him. You know where all that mega single digit stuff is. It's some kind of ride with just hover alone!!!!  I think you'll freak with the 6 under your seat when you run this scene 

Ive got 5lbs in my tubes now. But the bottom of the platform touches the isos. Maybe because of my carpet and the tubes really sink in idk


----------



## SBuger

@Nalleh - strange, my HB feels better (similar but still a little better) with it not inverted, especially with the MAs and BK's not inverted. But I have it set to the same negative delay as the MAs and BK too. 24' in the AVR. You got any ND set in your AVR on your HB when you liked it inverted better?

Just curious


----------



## Magly

SBuger said:


> @Nalleh - strange, my HB feels better (similar but still a little better) with it not inverted, especially with the MAs and BK's not inverted. But I have it set to the same negative delay as the MAs and BK too. 24' in the AVR. You got any ND set in your AVR on your HB when you liked it inverted better?
> 
> Just curious


In my setup the HB feels way better when in opposite phase as everything else, but I only have the cantilevered yet, will be interesting to see if I need to invert the jbl's aswell after converting them to HB or if they will work better opposite as the cantilevered drivers.

I'm using the same negative delay for all TR stuff


----------



## gpmbc

Thought you might like to see. First gen Buttkicker, I was surprised the piston is the same size to be so much larger than the LFE.


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Dude, go check out that scene in Dark Phoenix where Gene goes to see her dad and confronts him. You know where all that mega single digit stuff is. It's some kind of ride with just hover alone!!!!  I think you'll freak with the 6 under your seat when you run this scene
> 
> Ive got 5lbs in my tubes now. But the bottom of the platform touches the isos. Maybe because of my carpet and the tubes really sink in idk


Thanks for the demo tip, will look into it 
Yeah, your carpet could be the reason, as it sinks more into it, than my wood floor. I did put that speaker carpet UNDER the tubes too now, and it got even better, very little air escaping now 



SBuger said:


> @Nalleh - strange, my HB feels better (similar but still a little better) with it not inverted, especially with the MAs and BK's not inverted. But I have it set to the same negative delay as the MAs and BK too. 24' in the AVR. You got any ND set in your AVR on your HB when you liked it inverted better?
> 
> Just curious


Yeah, not done ANY measuring yet, so that might be why. And yes i run it all on same ND so far.



Magly said:


> In my setup the HB feels way better when in opposite phase as everything else, but I only have the cantilevered yet, will be interesting to see if I need to invert the jbl's aswell after converting them to HB or if they will work better opposite as the cantilevered drivers.
> 
> I'm using the same negative delay for all TR stuff


I am guessing you would need the same settings on both your cantilever and under seat boss. I have the same now, cantilever and under seat, and if i invert either, they cancel each other out.



gpmbc said:


> Thought you might like to see. First gen Buttkicker, I was surprised the piston is the same size to be so much larger than the LFE.


Thanks for the pics, that older one looks huge, LOL. They really trimmed down that newer edition


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, got my BK’s direct mounted 

Actually got it done yesterday, but was plaqued by a irritating squeek i haven’t had before, so couldn’t turn it up. Turned out to be a screw moving against wood and made the noise. Removed screw, problem solved, LOL.

So i did what @Magly, @m0j0 and @SBuger have done lately and mounted the BK’s on the rear of the seat frame. Me and Magly have the same brand couch, so he did the legwork, so thanks for that 

I (again)used some scrap pieces of 2x4 and a earlier board used to mount the BK(on the prototype sled) for this, and i simply mounted the board at an angle to the 2x4.










Ready to mount to seat.










Mounted.










And seat back together, and it all fit great, and as Magly reported, slightly harder to recline, but nothing big.










So now i have 6xJBL Hoverboss, 2x MA’s(single layer only) and 2x BK’s up and running on my seat.
And i found time check it a bit in REW and Qvibe/Viberry, and i got it all to play nice 

Adding the BK’s to the already insane hoverboss really did improve thing, it seemed to add more dynamic range, it got punchier and fuller feel, and the BK’s clearly likes both this place to mount them AND the tubes instead of iso’s below them.

So here is a quick Viberry graph.
Orange is a older one using iso’s, grey’ish is previous setup with tubes as iso’s and green is todays hoverboss. Orange is MV-20, while the two others are MV -30 !! And still massive i improvements, LOL. Look at that 8.6hz peak in the green one!











And this is still without my VNF’s and only one seat! I expect getting all setup will only get things better


----------



## gpmbc

Keeps getting better! From a Viberry standpoint, does the current set up surpass when you had SLAPs in play?


----------



## m0j0

Great work Nalleh! That looks next level awesome!


----------



## Nalleh

gpmbc said:


> Keeps getting better! From a Viberry standpoint, does the current set up surpass when you had SLAPs in play?



Yes!! That last graph was with NO slaps! And 10dB lower level, so yeah it is heaps better  But that is ALL because of the tubes sealing around the drivers!

But don’t worrie, the SLAPS are going back in  Either on top as before, or incorporated into the hoverboss. I will test with removing the two rearmost JBL’s in the sled and mount the VNF/SLAPS there instead, sealing it to the hoverboss and see if that works.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ If those VNF/SLAPS work as Hover, it might just hover you to the moon!!   Dude, i think you are fixing to surpass whatever was in your wildest TR dreams, even though it probably already has with what your running now.


----------



## Nalleh

Got the VNF back on the sled  I just went out in the garage and found the legs i made for them earlier, and used them to space them up for clearance between the hoverboss JBL magnets and SLAPS. Again: not pretty! But it’s just for testing 










3" + clearance now, should be plenty.











You can see the HB JBL’s, the BK and the VNF/ SLAPS here, LOL.











Made another run with Qvibe, and it is really starting to get wild in the single digits, LOL. 142dB at 7hz ! ! ! (Martian airlock clip again)










Impressions:

Well, even with all this the 6x hoverboss is just crushing it !! UN-BE-LI-EV-AB-LE ! The rest of the TR devices adds a couple dB each here and there, but they are simply no match no more for the HB, LOL.
And the VNF on top of sled adds the same SPL and punchy sound as before, not as much TR, but again, what surprises me is, how much SPL the HB adds! Not so much down low, but from 17-20hz it is very audiable, so it adds SPL to the rest too.
And luckily it doesn’t seem to be any cancellations between the SLAPS and the rest, either SPL or TR wise, so that’s good 

Videos:


----------



## SBuger

^^^ AWESOME and LOTS of movement in those vids!!! WOW!!!


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Yeah there is! AWESOME update Nalleh!


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Thanks guys 

Here is a REW graph with all components.
As you can see, there is plenty of SPL from the hoverboss(black). The HB is of course not EQ’ed any way to flatten that curve, as is for TR only. Any SPL from it is bonus 
Oh, and the curve looks like that on all subs with no EQ on them, so that is all room related nodes, peaks and dips.

So the "baseline" is the FF’s or my sonosubs, in this case the green one, and then each component seperate and added.

Red line is all subs, and then blue is with HB included, so you can see it actually adds a couple dB’s here and there, all the way down to ~8hz! I wonder if that is because the whole hoverboss sled becomes a moving membrane, LOL.










Also note above the VNF’s adds all over the curve, no cancellations anywhere(FF/green compared to FF+VNF/red)

And the added SPL from ~40hz on up from the HB is in spite of it having a 60hz 12dB LPF and -8.5dB of negative HS from 23hz, LOL. These JBL’s just want to pound, haha.










PS: these were done with just one FF (1/2 of normal), one VNF(1/3 of normal) and one hoversled(1/2 of what will be normal), so there is more to come. And that will smooth out the curve more too 

Ohh, and having just 1/3 of the VNF/SLAPS is probably why just the one now "don’t impress me much".


----------



## Nalleh

Time for an overhaul. Again, LOL.

Ok, i have managed some testing lately, mainly variants of hoverboss. So i started with my VNF’s as HB, where the downfiring SLAPS was sealed on top of the sled and replaced the two rearward JBL’s.

Long story short: it didn’t work . Well technically it did, but not good(enough). It kind of reverted the sound of the box back to the sealed box sound, and added less TR than two JBL’s as HB. So i scrapped that idea. On to the next.

Short sidenote:
Earlier i got the two SI18" with sealed boxes to try out as boss drivers. Ended up with 4xJBL’s instead and used these 18" in their boxes as NF’ish rearfill subs.
However, they had some noises in the ULF area, making me think they were damaged, so up until now i simply turned them down a bit and went on.
End sidenote.

But now i was thinking i could try them as hoverboss!
So removed the 4xJBL’s cantilever hoverboss drivers and plywood(since they were somewhat glued i actually destroyed the wood! LOL, so no going back, haha.

And i hodge-podged together a board to mount the 18" cantilever hoverboss(CL HB), and it actually fit under the last VNF iteration.

So now i have the two JBL 12" under the seat HB and a 18" CL HB with the VNF on top.

Last time i compared 1x18" with 4x12" as CL boss, they were about the same in function and feel, but now as CL HB?

IDK if it is the motor strength or the bigger Xmax, but holy crapola the 18" is in another legue than the multiple 12", for sure. When it had the 4x12" as CL HB they were about equal to the 2x12" under the seat(actually less in areas), but now the 18" is just crushing the 2x12", especially in the single digits!!

It is mindblowingly good! And none of the noises i heard from it when in the box, so win-win 
This is of course great news, because it saves lots of 12" for my future sub projects, LOL. If i ended up having to use those for HB that would eat up 12 units of the stock i had. Add two more for a future BB, and i would only have 1 left !!

I think i have to rig up some way to measure actual displacement (mm/inch) of the couch, because it is getting ridicolous, LOL.

Ok, picture time.

Here is the 18" mounted on the sled in CL HB mode with VNF on top.










Close tolerance on the magnet to box, LOL. Nestled nicely btween the SLAPS 










And seat reclined.










Again, this is prototyping, so scrap pieces and holes everywhere it is. Only thing missing now, is the back boss 










Another one of SLAPS and 18"

White wire to the 18" is a temp sensor to monitor temp in magnet, and if the clearance to vent hole is to small. No problems so far 










And a REW graph. Boss drivers adds a good bit of SPL, but doesn’t look good on the graph, LOL. 










Some content. Yes same clip as before, here is a no load vs seated comparison. Loosing about ~10dB’s on the graphs when seated.










And here is a demo clip from Jupiter Ascending. Again seated.










And here is a earlier test with just one TR component at a time to see what each contribute to. This was actually when i tried VNF as HB.










So luckily the 18" works awsome in CL HB, no more noises from it, the VNF fit on top in a reasonable height, i free’ed up some 12"’s, so now i need to get some new plywood sheets and redo my TR sleds properly to the whole couch.

Oh, and @SBuger : you were right about reconfiguring the MA’s ! Now that the HB is king of single digits, instead of pushing the MA’s in that area(didn’t work), i remowed all low shelfs and turned them up a bit instead, and now they are awsome from ~10hz and up, adding a lot more all over the LFE band! Actually removed the LPF too, and used a 15dB negative High Shelf at 50hz insted, great improvement, so thanks for the tip/idea


----------



## BP1Fanatic

WOW! Those 18's look GOOD!


----------



## m0j0

Front the front, that 18 reminds me of a Cylon! Wicked!


----------



## Magly

Can't go wrong with 18's for HB


----------



## DesertDog

Looks great! I really wish Nick still sold those 18s. @gpmbc you should sell me the ones you have sitting around.


----------



## SBuger

@Nalleh - Awesome as usual!!!! Darn you, you're really making me want to try my 18's as CLHB duty instead of as VNFs like they are now (the BB kills them anyway for feel and chest crushing power), and I was (am) super happy/thrilled with the way it is now LOL.   . It really is never over, especially when we have guys like you around here hahahaha   

One thing I think I am going to try first though is @m0j0's double sided tape trick and discs sometime this week for maybe a better seal for the deep carpet I'm on. Will probably cut my own though since I'll need a lot of them for the 12's, plus for the 18's if I try those too. I may try to use the Hardboard tempered panel like @DesertDog mentioned in the TR thread the other day and just cut them to fit. DD, have you picked any of that stuff up yet for your hover?

So, do you think there is any problems with the longer stroke and strength on the 18's in the ULF department compared to the 12's under you? Meaning do you think they combine and feel right working together? I'm sure they do, just curious on your thoughts of the feel when combined vs all 12's since you said they have so much more power.


----------



## DesertDog

SBuger said:


> @Nalleh - Awesome as usual!!!! Darn you, you're really making me want to try my 18's as CLHB duty instead of as VNFs like they are now (the BB kills them anyway for feel and chest crushing power), and I was (am) super happy/thrilled with the way it is now LOL.   . It really is never over, especially when we have guys like you around here hahahaha
> 
> One thing I think I am going to try first though is @m0j0's double sided tape trick and discs sometime this week for maybe a better seal for the deep carpet I'm on. Will probably cut my own though since I'll need a lot of them for the 12's, plus for the 18's if I try those too. I may try to use the Hardboard tempered panel like @DesertDog mentioned in the TR thread the other day and just cut them to fit. DD, have you picked any of that stuff up yet for your hover?
> 
> So, do you think there is any problems with the longer stroke and strength on the 18's in the ULF department compared to the 12's under you? Meaning do you think they combine and feel right working together? I'm sure they do, just curious on your thoughts of the feel when combined vs all 12's since you said they have so much more power.


I have a sheet of it but I haven't used it yet. Over the weekend I mostly got my tubing system figured out to connect all the tubes together. I was experimenting with 3D printing barbed T connectors to join everything together. It worked correctly but the T fittings that I printed had a design flaw when I did my pressurized stress test on them last night. The junction box had a point too close to the wall that caused a slow leak. I redid it last night into a Y shape instead of T so that there are thicker walls around it and hopefully prevent the leak. It was a bit after midnight so I didn't have a chance to print it yet. That's on slate for tonight when I get home from work.


----------



## Nalleh

Thanks guys 

Yes, Shelby the 18" and 12" work great together, and combine awsome in the whole LFE band, so no worries mixing them. Using the 6x12" i had earlier, the two under the seat was actually more impressive than the 4x CL was, but now it is reversed, that 18" is just killer!! There is a difference running under seat vs cantilever: under seat feel all Z axis, up and down, and is just so cool in the single digits, while cantilever gets the Y axis more involved. Still insane in the Z axis but it is a more "combined" axis feel, and then both of them just adds to it all, LOL. Pretty mindblowing, actually 

Yeah, i am going to try the double sided tape and seal them too, i just wanted to get the configuration right first. And i think i have it now  However i am half way there already with the fabric i use over and under the tubes, as it cut down~ 80% of the leakage i had. But when heavy Xmax is called for, it lifts the sled to where it gets airborne and air leaks out, LOL. So sealing it would help that.

I think i will try some heavy builders plastic i have from when renovating the living room, and see if that is enough.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Awesome, thanks for the info and makes total sense!!! I can only imagine the diff the 18's CLHB would make. I know it sure as heck did with the BK's, and HB is a beast of its own in the ULF department and especially the singles. I'm still kind of having a hard time believing the difference the singles from it has made on all these movies. This and what you say about the 18's I think is gonna push me into running them, or at least trying them. Got a bunch of family in town for the next couple of weeks (Father-in law having major surgery), so not sure how soon I'll get to it, but am excited about it now. Now, to try it just on one seat like we talked about or to just do ALL three. Who knows though, I may like them separated into 3 sections for the reasons we discussed too, so maybe I should just start with the single seat and platform to test anyway. Then go from there.

As always, thanks for the info and inspiration!!!!!

EDIT: oh yeah, did you use the same brand (Walmart heavy tubes) as you're using on your 12's, just a bigger size like a 20" for the 18?


----------



## gpmbc

@DesertDog I’ve been flirting with the idea of the 18s cantilevered. I think I gotta try or I’ll always have that what if in play. I do have another unicorn you’re welcome to mess around with though...ascendant audio avalanche 18. @Nalleh are you using the same tubes around the 18s that you previously had for the dual 12s?


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Now see what you and Magly have caused with the 18's CLHB, gpmbc want's in on it too now


----------



## gpmbc

@SBuger I have had analysis paralysis for a bit now considering all the different options. I was gonna go the SLAPs route but after reading so many posts about the difference the Hover BOSS made, it is a much simpler implementation. Then after reading about how HB also improved BK response it just solidified it even more. Then HBD, then BB, then...confusion. Sooo I figured let me start with the foundation which is a cantilevered, sealed HB and go from there. Thinking 18s would be end game for single digit pursuit. I just don’t want to lose anything the JBLs offer now. They have a nice punch for sure.


----------



## DesertDog

gpmbc said:


> @DesertDog I’ve been flirting with the idea of the 18s cantilevered. I think I gotta try or I’ll always have that what if in play. I do have another unicorn you’re welcome to mess around with though...ascendant audio avalanche 18. @Nalleh are you using the same tubes around the 18s that you previously had for the dual 12s?


Thanks! I was mostly joking unless you were crazy enough to give them up.  I'm curious now if I can even fit an 18" in my new cantilevered part for the VNFs. I think I'd have to cut into the 2x6" that makes the frame to fit one. 



SBuger said:


> ^^^ Now see what you and Magly have caused with the 18's CLHB, gpmbc want's in on it too now


Magly and Nalleh can't be held responsible for gpmbc. He's been crazy for awhile. You can tell by the way his wife rolls her eyes and dismisses what he's doing. It's clear that she's been dealing with it for years and is at the point where she's become numb to it. That doesn't happen over night.


----------



## gpmbc

@DesertDog 😂 😆


----------



## SBuger

DesertDog said:


> Magly and Nalleh can't be held responsible for gpmbc. He's been crazy for awhile. You can tell by the way his wife rolls her eyes and dismisses what he's doing. It's clear that she's been dealing with it for years and is at the point where she's become numb to it. That doesn't happen over night.


Ah him too huh LOL. You’d think my wife would be used to it by now, and I guess she is in a way, but I still get that same kind of response from her. I probably shouldn’t have, but I kind of told her I was done for a long while after the BB. I don’t even want to see the look on her face or what she has to say if she sees me tearing my 18” drivers from my VNF cabinets again to now mount them as CLHB LMAO!!! 

Even though it’s my room and I can do whatever I want to it, I still get the look and all that when I go to modifying and adding stuff  I love her to death but she doesn't quite share my same enthusiasm when it comes to all this stuff. Oh well, I guess a couple can't be too much alike in ALL ways, or there may not be enough balance, and well you know, not make it like so many couples seem to not be able to do these days.


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ Awesome, thanks for the info and makes total sense!!! I can only imagine the diff the 18's CLHB would make. I know it sure as heck did with the BK's, and HB is a beast of its own in the ULF department and especially the singles. I'm still kind of having a hard time believing the difference the singles from it has made on all these movies. This and what you say about the 18's I think is gonna push me into running them, or at least trying them. Got a bunch of family in town for the next couple of weeks (Father-in law having major surgery), so not sure how soon I'll get to it, but am excited about it now. Now, to try it just on one seat like we talked about or to just do ALL three. Who knows though, I may like them separated into 3 sections for the reasons we discussed too, so maybe I should just start with the single seat and platform to test anyway. Then go from there.
> 
> As always, thanks for the info and inspiration!!!!!
> 
> EDIT: oh yeah, did you use the same brand (Walmart heavy tubes) as you're using on your 12's, just a bigger size like a 20" for the 18?


No worries 

Yeah, compared to the earlier experience with normal boss, i wasn’t expecting a big difference in performance between 12" and 18", but the 18" did NOT dissapoint, LOL.

I used the same 24" tube i used around the two 12", no Walmart here in Norway, so no idea how it compares, LOL.




gpmbc said:


> @DesertDog I’ve been flirting with the idea of the 18s cantilevered. I think I gotta try or I’ll always have that what if in play. I do have another unicorn you’re welcome to mess around with though...ascendant audio avalanche 18. @Nalleh are you using the same tubes around the 18s that you previously had for the dual 12s?


Yes, same 24" tube 

Ohh, again as normal boss on iso’s, the SLAPS outperformed the JBL’s, and even the 18", but now sealing them with tubes, the 12" are above the SLAPS again  And the 18" above that again!

But both the BK’s and VNF/SLAPS like the tubes better than iso’s, so they all perform better on tubes. And in my setup they actually all work well together, and each one adds its strength to the mix. Weird....one should think that the "mega" HB should be all that is needed, but still the rest of them really adds to the performance. I am guessing that just the HB vs all of it, is at LEAST another 5dB’s on the Viberry graphs.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> No worries
> 
> Yeah, compared to the earlier experience with normal boss, i wasn’t expecting a big difference in performance between 12" and 18", but the 18" did NOT dissapoint, LOL.
> 
> I used the same 24" tube i used around the two 12", *no Walmart here in Norway*, so no idea how it compares, LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, same 24" tube
> 
> Ohh, again as normal boss on iso’s, the SLAPS outperformed the JBL’s, and even the 18", but now sealing them with tubes, the 12" are above the SLAPS again  And the 18" above that again!
> 
> But both the BK’s and VNF/SLAPS like the tubes better than iso’s, so they all perform better on tubes. And in my setup they actually all work well together, and each one adds its strength to the mix. Weird....one should think that the "mega" HB should be all that is needed, but still the rest of them really adds to the performance. *I am guessing that just the HB vs all of it, is at LEAST another 5dB’s on the Viberry graphs.*


Cool. LOL yeah I forget there is no Walmart there 


Well for me (and I think we are both probably saying the same thing here for the most part), the addition of the other devices is way more than just extra TR db’s. It’s the feel they each bring with their strenghts. I don’t know about you, but I don’t really run any of them at max with the moderate MV’s I listen at most of the time, so I could run any of the devices harder if I wanted to, but feels better for different reasons to run each at the level that feels best in the mix. For example, I could turn up the HB more and the BK’s down for about the same TR readings more or less in the 10-30hz area, but feels way better with BKs bringing a certain amount in relation to everything else. And in the case of the BK’s, a certain sharpness and violence in their wheelhouse. More headroom is always good I think as well as combined TR readings, plus allows you to dial in pretty much whatever you want from each within their strengths. That’s how’s it seems to work in my rig anyway. 

So, about the 18’s CLHB that I’ve gotta try. Whenever I can get to it, it might be easier than I had thought to just test all 3x 18’s in combo with how I have it now on my big platform that has all three seats. I’ve already got the piece of plywood with the holes cut and everything for the 18’s when I tried them CL normal BOSS a while back. I could just use that and make a frame for it, making it into a platform that could easily be attached to my platform that I’m using now that houses the 6 JBL’s with the seats. Sounds simple enough anyway LOL.


----------



## Nalleh

@SBuger : Oh yes, for sure, they all contribute in more ways than just TR dB’s, i was just trying to say that even as bad ass as the HB is, the other components can(and do) add to it. And i am not maxing any of them out either as it is now, there is quite a bit more to go on, so yeah, headroom is a nice thing 

IDK, if i were to explain the differences between them, it’s like the HB does "the grunt" of the work, the main movements, and then the BK "finishes" it, extends the motions all the way to the "tip", it just completes all the big motions, pronounces them more. And kind of same with the MA’s, they "firm up" each motion, makes them more presice, and nuanced. Kind of funny when you can mute and unmute each components while feeling the differences, LOL.

But man, that HB is a beast for sure! Talk about your house groaning from all the subs, but the groans coming from the furniture and the sleds now if i turn it up a bit are starting to scare me, hahaha.

Yup, your idea of how to get the 18" up and running sound great


----------



## Nalleh

BB time 
My turn to hack up some furniture.
I had two choises about what version of BB to i wanted to try:
@SBuger ‘s sealed with a tube version
@Magly / @m0j0 ‘s cut a hole in the back version.

I decided to try Shelby’s version, but i couldn’t use the strap idea, so i made a board that screw onto the back with the driver attached and the tube between it and seatback. Like so:










Note the valve easy reachable from the back(red circle) 

All finished.










I actually had it done a couple days ago, i made it probably in less than 2 hours, LOL.
Stole a output from one of my many other gadgets, and let it ripp !

First impression? Meh....... this was disapointing!

Did not have time to test more than some test tones before i had to get to work, so i concluded i need to try the "cut a hole" version.

But then i remember that the mDSP output i used had heavy EQ on it and may have been why it worked so bad. And sure enough, today i switched to another output, and started with a flat signal. MUCH better!!!!
YIKES this little 12" can pack a punch!!!! How it can produce such a effect against basically a closed seatback is pretty unbelievable! WAY more punch, clarity and snap than my VNF’s, LOL!

HOWEVER: to make room for the BB, my VNF had to be moved away from the seatback, so they are a good ~9" from the seatback now, so naturally i am losing a lot of NF effect from them now.

That being said, i can’t remember them ever having such a puncy feel to them as the BB has.

Just played some music on it so far, but the difference i staggering !!

BUT: it doesn’t have ANY ULF effect!! I can’t get any action from it below say ~20hz ! Does that sound right, Shelby?

Magly or m0j0, how about yours, are you guys with holes in your seat get any ULF action?

I keep thinking i HAVE to try a hole in the back version, LOL.


Damn it ...


----------



## Magly

Nalleh said:


> Magly or m0j0, how about yours, are you guys with holes in your seat get any ULF action?
> 
> I keep thinking i HAVE to try a hole in the back version, LOL.


Yes mine have pretty good ULF actually after sealing it up, singles even

I also took a picture from the inside with the driver facing out, if you wanted to try that you would need to space it out a few inches


----------



## Nalleh

Awsome @Magly 

Thanks for the pic, i did have plans to space it out using spacer rings. OR mount it magnet out as you did, but space it IN a bit to get it protruding less out the back. I believe you mounted the driver on the inside of the mdf ring you used? 

As you can see i had to mount it to the outside of the board to give the driver some room to move.


----------



## Magly

Nalleh said:


> Awsome @Magly
> 
> Thanks for the pic, i did have plans to space it out using spacer rings. OR mount it magnet out as you did, but space it IN a bit to get it protruding less out the back. I believe you mounted the driver on the inside of the mdf ring you used?
> 
> As you can see i had to mount it to the outside of the board to give the driver some room to move.


Mounted on the inside of mdf yes
Didn't think of spacing it in, that could probably make it even better with the driver closer


----------



## Nalleh

Magly said:


> Mounted on the inside of mdf yes
> Didn't think of spacing it in, that could probably make it even better with the driver closer


Indeed  You could space it to within millimeters from your back! Talk about back massage 

And BTW: as you said, it balanced rather good with the BK wanting to decline the seat, and the BB wanting to recline it, haha.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Yep sounds like between you and Magly, you are fixing to get EVERYTHING you want out of it!!    Awesome!!!

EDIT: Plus mounted that way, you could move your VNF with SLAPS back closer to your seat again for the best of both worlds. Win Win!!!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ Yep sounds like between you and Magly, you are fixing to get EVERYTHING you want out of it!!    Awesome!!!
> 
> EDIT: Plus mounted that way, you could move your VNF with SLAPS back closer to your seat again for the best of both worlds. Win Win!!!


Yeah, it is great having @Magly test out all these things, so i don’t have to, LOL.

Just kidding, but what is great is we have the same seats, so what works for one, will work for the other 

Yeah, my VNF’s is why i want to make the BB as slim as possible, so i am hoping it will work 

As they are now, i can barely hear them when i unmute them while the BB is playing, LOL. Pretty insane ....but i guess you both know this already, haha.


----------



## Nalleh

Hmm, with all these different sub and TR gadgets lately, i am running out of channels on my mDSP 10x10HD!
Actually it is only a 8x8, as the two remaining is digital in/outputs. To use them, you need a DAC to convert them to analog(at least for this use), and such D/A devices are cheap from Ebay.

However, i wonder if i have a way of using them with the gear i have. All my AVR’s have digital inputs, be it optical or coaxial, and multi-zone capacity. So if i send the digital output 9 and 10 from the mDSP via optical or coax to a digitial input on a AVR, and then send that "stereo" signal to a analog stereo output using zone2 or 3, then i have converted to analog, and can use the two remaining mDSP channels for subs or TR devices. By turning on or off that zone, i can also decide when those outputs are active from the remote. Neat!


----------



## SBuger

Yeah, I'm getting up there too with the 10x10. I think I have 1 spot left free and I'm sure that will get filled up sometime in the near future if I continue to try other things and push on further. Having complete control over all these devices is a MUST though!!! I guess I actually have another 10x10HD (the one that I had to replace with the new one recently) and can use it too if it ends up getting fixed.


----------



## d-rail34

Okay, so this is way too much stuff to read through all at once, but I did skim through enough to understand something.. @DesertDog's #IHateNallah makes so much sense now! 

Jesus (hay-SOOS) Christoff! This is completely mind blowing! You must be in audio nirvana with a system like this. 


ALL HAIL NALLAH!!


----------



## Nalleh

d-rail34 said:


> Okay, so this is way too much stuff to read through all at once, but I did skim through enough to understand something.. @DesertDog's #IHateNallah makes so much sense now!
> 
> Jesus (hay-SOOS) Christoff! This is completely mind blowing! You must be in audio nirvana with a system like this.


Thanks d-rail 

I almost rolled of my seat laughing, LOL . Hay-SOOS was epic!

Well, this is what happens when you spend too much time on this forum , LOL.


----------



## d-rail34

Nalleh said:


> Thanks d-rail
> 
> I almost rolled of my seat laughing, LOL . Hay-SOOS was epic!
> 
> *Well, this is what happens when you spend too much time on this forum , LOL.*


Ummm...ya think?? Lol

Yeah, this place does have a way of sucking you in and not letting go. It's such a great place for information though. Especially from all of you bass heads, because this is the area that I'm really wanting to improve on. Which should be happening pretty soon. 

I'm actually looking at getting either a pair of the Rythmik FV18 or Cap 2400. That's going to be a tough choice though. I'm probably going to wind up having to get one of each and sending the loser back. We'll see how that goes first, and then perhaps I'll look into adding the HoverBoss. That thing sounds like it's been a real game changer for y'all.


----------



## SBuger

d-rail34 said:


> Ummm...ya think?? Lol
> 
> Yeah, this place does have a way of sucking you in and not letting go. It's such a great place for information though. Especially from all of you bass heads, because this is the area that I'm really wanting to improve on. Which should be happening pretty soon.
> 
> I'm actually looking at getting either a pair of the Rythmik FV18 or Cap 2400. That's going to be a tough choice though. I'm probably going to wind up having to get one of each and sending the loser back. We'll see how that goes first, and then perhaps I'll look into adding the HoverBoss. That thing sounds like it's been a real game changer for y'all.


I think you’re gonna love both of those subs and will be interesting to see which one you end up keeping. But since you are a BEQ guy, I think you’re gonna flip with what the HoverBOSS can do down low for TR. It’s great all over, but ULF and especially in the singles is the craziest and coolest thing ever. I think you are fixing to get more improvement than you ever thought possible  LOL


----------



## d-rail34

SBuger said:


> I think you’re gonna love both of those subs and will be interesting to see which one you end up keeping. But since you are a BEQ guy, I think you’re gonna flip with what the HoverBOSS can do down low for TR. It’s great all over, but ULF and especially in the singles is the craziest and coolest thing ever. I think you are fixing to get more improvement than you ever thought possible  LOL


Definitely agree! 

What I'm most curious of to start with, is how well either of those subs are going to respond in my room. If how my current sub responds is any kind of indicator, I should get some really good output in the mid-high singles with either of lower tuned options, especially running duals. This is what will really determine whether or not I pursue the HB right away or not. Regardless of the situation, it WILL happen.


----------



## DesertDog

d-rail34 said:


> Okay, so this is way too much stuff to read through all at once, but I did skim through enough to understand something.. @DesertDog's #IHateNallah makes so much sense now!
> 
> Jesus (hay-SOOS) Christoff! This is completely mind blowing! You must be in audio nirvana with a system like this.
> 
> 
> ALL HAIL NALLAH!!


The hate for @Nalleh runs deep! It's not only for this thread and his set-up. It's also for the horrible influence he is on everyone. 

The hashtag actually started as a joke a few months back in one of the threads as our form of #epstinedidntkillhimself .


----------



## d-rail34

DesertDog said:


> The hate for @Nalleh runs deep! It's not only for this thread and his set-up. *It's also for the horrible influence he is on everyone.*
> 
> The hashtag actually started as a joke a few months back in one of the threads as our form of #epstinedidntkillhimself .


LMAO! Hey, I suppose somebody has to be the bad guy.


----------



## Magly

Have you tried running the jbl's out of phase with the 18 and test some single digits, got my full hover up and running but having a hard time deciding if I want to run the jbl's in phase or not with the um18's
If I run them in phase I get mostly up down movement but if I run them out of phase I get more of a tilting motion in the singles which feels a lot stronger than just up and down, but get a little less TR between 8-12Hz
Leaning toward running them out of phase I think because the singles feels a lot better


----------



## Nalleh

d-rail34 said:


> Ummm...ya think?? Lol
> 
> Yeah, this place does have a way of sucking you in and not letting go. It's such a great place for information though. Especially from all of you bass heads, because this is the area that I'm really wanting to improve on. Which should be happening pretty soon.
> 
> I'm actually looking at getting either a pair of the Rythmik FV18 or Cap 2400. That's going to be a tough choice though. I'm probably going to wind up having to get one of each and sending the loser back. We'll see how that goes first, and then perhaps I'll look into adding the HoverBoss. That thing sounds like it's been a real game changer for y'all.


Agreeing with Shelby, I think both of those are good choises for a sub. And no matter how good those subs are, you will definitely love what the HB can add to them


----------



## Nalleh

Magly said:


> Have you tried running the jbl's out of phase with the 18 and test some single digits, got my full hover up and running but having a hard time deciding if I want to run the jbl's in phase or not with the um18's
> If I run them in phase I get mostly up down movement but if I run them out of phase I get more of a tilting motion in the singles which feels a lot stronger than just up and down, but get a little less TR between 8-12Hz
> Leaning toward running them out of phase I think because the singles feels a lot better


Actually yes. I agree, having them out of phase does induce some interesting tilting/rocking effect. In my case it is opposite, in the 10-15 hz area has incredible tilt when out of phase, but my singles is best in phase.


----------



## d-rail34

Nalleh said:


> Agreeing with Shelby, I think both of those are good choises for a sub. And no matter how good those subs are, you will definitely love what the HB can add to them


Oh, I can only imagine. Having great TR down in the 1-5Hz range has to be a fantastic experience. I'm actually hoping that I can get some decent output somewhere close to the 5Hz range with one of those sub choices, which I'm thinking might be the new Cap2400. 

I finally got a response from Jeff about the new drivers, and he replied with this: 

*"The new driver has 400 grams of aluminum added the motor structure to greatly lower distortion and inductance. The previous 2400 had peak output at 50hz (121db/2m/rms) and then rolled off above there. However, the new driver with much lower inductance doesn't rolloff, giving it 2-3db more output in the upper bass (121db at 125hz, 2m/rms). The lower distortion really improves sound quality. Beyond the driver, we did increase the port size to gain another 1db on the bottomend."*

If what he's saying holds true, that FV18 better impress the hell out of me!


----------



## aron7awol

d-rail34 said:


> Oh, I can only imagine. Having great TR down in the 1-5Hz range has to be a fantastic experience. I'm actually hoping that I can get some decent output somewhere close to the 5Hz range with one of those sub choices, which I'm thinking might be the new Cap2400.


Just keep in mind that no matter what you do for subs, no matter how great your room is, even if you have an awesome suspended floor for TR, no matter how much they end up bringing you in the single-digits, it will be about 0.0001% compared to what you'll get from adding pure TR. I know that sounds hard to believe, but I'm not really exaggerating at all. I would encourage you to choose subs that give you the output you want down to 10-12Hz, and don't even worry about anything lower, it will all end up being inconsequential!


----------



## SBuger

Magly said:


> Have you tried running the jbl's out of phase with the 18 and test some single digits, got my full hover up and running but having a hard time deciding if I want to run the jbl's in phase or not with the um18's
> If I run them in phase I get mostly up down movement but if I run them out of phase I get more of a tilting motion in the singles which feels a lot stronger than just up and down, but get a little less TR between 8-12Hz
> Leaning toward running them out of phase I think because the singles feels a lot better





Nalleh said:


> Actually yes. I agree, having them out of phase does induce some interesting tilting/rocking effect. In my case it is opposite, in the 10-15 hz area has incredible tilt when out of phase, but my singles is best in phase.


 @Magly and @Nalleh - Question for you guys. I think I pretty much know the answer, especially from Nalleh, and I guess it really doesn’t even matter now that you guys run drivers under and CL combined for HB, but if you were to get levels and slopes and all that close where they feel best for the CL (no underneath drivers in the mix) vs Underneath (no CL drivers in the mix), which do you guys prefer?

Yes, the 18’s have the advantage I would think for power, especially in singles the 20hz and under TR  department, but with levels and settings set where they feel and/or read pretty close, which do you prefer and if had to choose between the two, which would it be?

Luckily you don’t have to choose because a combo with TR devices usually owns all. 

Thanks guys, just curious since you both now run 18’s CLHB as well as the JBL 12’s HB underneath your seats.


----------



## d-rail34

aron7awol said:


> Just keep in mind that no matter what you do for subs, no matter how great your room is, even if you have an awesome suspended floor for TR, no matter how much they end up bringing you in the single-digits, it will be about 0.0001% compared to what you'll get from adding pure TR. I know that sounds hard to believe, but I'm not really exaggerating at all. I would encourage you to choose subs that give you the output you want down to 10-12Hz, and don't even worry about anything lower, it will all end up being inconsequential!


Oh, I’ve read enough about y’all’s setups to get a pretty good understanding of what I’d be missing without at least having a Boss set up. And my wife is tired of hearing about it too!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> @Magly and @Nalleh - Question for you guys. I think I pretty much know the answer, especially from Nalleh, and I guess it really doesn’t even matter now that you guys run drivers under and CL combined for HB, but if you were to get levels and slopes and all that close where they feel best for the CL (no underneath drivers in the mix) vs Underneath (no CL drivers in the mix), which do you guys prefer?
> 
> Yes, the 18’s have the advantage I would think for power, especially in singles the 20hz and under TR department, but with levels and settings set where they feel and/or read pretty close, which do you prefer and if had to choose between the two, which would it be?
> 
> Luckily you don’t have to choose because a combo with TR devices usually owns all.
> 
> Thanks guys, just curious since you both now run 18’s CLHB as well as the JBL 12’s HB underneath your seats.


Yeah, both   

Yes, they are different. Under seat is more direct, and more in the Z axis, while CL is probably as intense(at least with the 18") in the Z-axis but involves y-axis much more, for a more rocking motion. They are both insane and they combine beatifully, so no compromises running both.

If you twist my arm, i think i would choose under seat, that 4hz jumping is just so crazy, LOL.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Nice, thanks for the reply!!! Makes total sense  

Yeah those low singles really do seem to jump huh with the drivers under you ...like suck down and toss you back up motion in such crazy powerful way. It's pretty insane that it can do this and just keeps bringing it the more you raise your MV or boost down low. I know there has to be an end to it somewhere ...maybe when you hit your head on the ceiling LOL. There probably is no end with both JBL 12's under and CL 18's combined 

It's like ...ok, just how much do you want hahahaha


----------



## Magly

SBuger said:


> @Magly and @Nalleh - Question for you guys. I think I pretty much know the answer, especially from Nalleh, and I guess it really doesn’t even matter now that you guys run drivers under and CL combined for HB, but if you were to get levels and slopes and all that close where they feel best for the CL (no underneath drivers in the mix) vs Underneath (no CL drivers in the mix), which do you guys prefer?
> 
> Yes, the 18’s have the advantage I would think for power, especially in singles the 20hz and under TR department, but with levels and settings set where they feel and/or read pretty close, which do you prefer and if had to choose between the two, which would it be?
> 
> Luckily you don’t have to choose because a combo with TR devices usually owns all.
> 
> Thanks guys, just curious since you both now run 18’s CLHB as well as the JBL 12’s HB underneath your seats.


I think the under seat JBL's has the overall best feel if I could only choose one, the 18's have too much SPL to get much TR above 20Hz in my setup but are really good below that
I have all 8 JBL's on the same channel so they aren't even getting all the power they can take


----------



## SBuger

^^^ @Magly - Cool, thanks for the reply as well!! Yeah I think I remembered you saying that the 18’s CLHB in your rig gave quite a bit of SPL and you had to LPF them pretty low to keep it more under 20hz.

Yeah I bet just your 8 JBL’s under you will wobble you silly in the singles!! I know my 6 will. I’m actually still having a hard time believing what they are doing in that range LOL


----------



## Nalleh

So, after setting up the BossBack last week i haven’t had much time to try it out for movies and do a proper tune session with it, but finally got some time yesterday. So i popped in some demo tracks and started doing some tweaks. But i was just minutes in when i smelled voice coils, LOL! Man, this sealing it to your back with a tube is just strangling my JBL, so i decided to bite the bullet and make a hole for it instead. I just basically did what @Magly did, but haven’t sealed the seatback at the bottom yet. I used the same board, moved the driver to the forward side of the board and made a hole in the seatback the outside diameter of the driver, and screwed the board directly to the seatback.

MUCH BETTER !! Now the driver could breathe, LOL. And it works pretty much down to the single digits 

Tried the tank battle scene from Fury, and the improvement and difference from the VNF’s is incredible!!!! It is so much more visceral and direct, it is jaw dropping. Shelby, i see what you mean about aching in your chest now, LOL.

I could turn it down at least 8-10dB now, it is so much more effective, but it is more open air now, so that makes sense.

Still not sure it can replace the VNF’s completely though... it doesn’t have the weight and fullness they have, but that may come if i try to seal them like Magly did.


----------



## SBuger

^^^ Awesome that it made that much of a difference!!! But jeez, smelling voice coils, you must have really been pushing that BB!!  I don’t think I've experienced that yet.

But super cool that opening it up more with the setback hole took care of the problem and made it that much more efficient and better feeling as well. Yeah, enough power to cause some chest ache is pretty crazy huh!!  

Hell, maybe I should just go ahead and cut a hole in mine as well. I’ve been thrilled with it so haven’t really felt the urge to mess with it much more and was kind of waiting on Darrell to do his comparisons with the two versions first, but haven’t seen that happen yet. Not sure what happened with that project over in the TR thread. 

So, I may just go ahead and do it when I get a chance. I’m sure it can only make things better and make it more efficient as well like yours.

Anyway, AWESOME!!!!! Plus now, you can move your VNF boxes closer to you to get more of that weight and fullness if sealing it at the bottom like Magly doesnt give it to you. Even if it does, you still have the option of keeping the VNF boxes in the mix a lot closer to the seat now with way more space to work with. 

Awesome stuff @Nalleh!!!


----------



## SBuger

I just played that tank battle scene from Fury since you brought it up. Dayum …talk about work you over  . Every shot and tank sound from the engines and vibration can be felt so deep in the chest (and body)!! Plus the recoil and ULF when those canons fire ..WOWZERS!!! Talk about make your seat jump!!!

All the gun fire can be felt, pistols, rifles, and mounted 50 cals, not just the cannon blasts. It’s hard core feeling in the chest with the way I have it mounted on the oiutside now and can’t imagine it being much better, but does make me wonder what kind of feel it would bring with a hole in the seatback. hmmmmm. @m0j0 ...this is one of your favorites with the BB too right?


----------



## m0j0

SBuger said:


> I just played that tank battle scene from Fury since you brought it up. Dayum …talk about work you over  . Every shot and tank sound from the engines and vibration can be felt so deep in the chest (and body)!! Plus the recoil and ULF when those canons fire ..WOWZERS!!! Talk about make your seat jump!!!
> 
> All the gun fire can be felt, pistols, rifles, and mounted 50 cals, not just the cannon blasts. It’s hard core feeling in the chest with the way I have it mounted on the oiutside now and can’t imagine it being much better, but does make me wonder what kind of feel it would bring with a hole in the seatback. hmmmmm. @*m0j0* ...this is one of your favorites with the BB too right?



Oh yeah, I love testing my whole setup with Fury, it's brutal, along with 13 Hours! Also love the feel of the BB with Hobbs & Shaw!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ Awesome that it made that much of a difference!!! But jeez, smelling voice coils, you must have really been pushing that BB!!  I don’t think I've experienced that yet.
> 
> But super cool that opening it up more with the setback hole took care of the problem and made it that much more efficient and better feeling as well. Yeah, enough power to cause some chest ache is pretty crazy huh!!
> 
> Hell, maybe I should just go ahead and cut a hole in mine as well. I’ve been thrilled with it so haven’t really felt the urge to mess with it much more and was kind of waiting on Darrell to do his comparisons with the two versions first, but haven’t seen that happen yet. Not sure what happened with that project over in the TR thread.
> 
> So, I may just go ahead and do it when I get a chance. I’m sure it can only make things better and make it more efficient as well like yours.
> 
> Anyway, AWESOME!!!!! Plus now, you can move your VNF boxes closer to you to get more of that weight and fullness if sealing it at the bottom like Magly doesnt give it to you. Even if it does, you still have the option of keeping the VNF boxes in the mix a lot closer to the seat now with way more space to work with.
> 
> Awesome stuff @Nalleh!!!


Yeah, with all the different seat variations, it might be my type of seat that is the problem, but it sounds like the seatback is rather similar to yours. But it could also be because i ran a little LS on it to get some action down low, and i believe you have actually turned it down a bit down low?
So it might have survived if i used your settings.

It did work great, awsome in fact above say 25-30hz, so if that is what you want, it should be fine, just don’t boost down low, LOL.

But you know me, i want it all, LOL.

And by just removing the tube and cutting the hole, i got the action down low i wanted. And everywhere else too, as i had to turn it down a lot now, as it simply got to effective, LOL.

To put it short: in my direct testing hole vs tube is at least 8-10dB more effective, so yeah, pretty noticable


----------



## Nalleh

@aron7awol: here is what it looks like now :


----------



## m0j0

Nalleh said:


> Yeah, with all the different seat variations, it might be my type of seat that is the problem, but it sounds like the seatback is rather similar to yours. But it could also be because i ran a little LS on it to get some action down low, and i believe you have actually turned it down a bit down low?
> So it might have survived if i used your settings.
> 
> It did work great, awsome in fact above say 25-30hz, so if that is what you want, it should be fine, just don’t boost down low, LOL.
> 
> But you know me, i want it all, LOL.
> 
> And by just removing the tube and cutting the hole, i got the action down low i wanted. And everywhere else too, as i had to turn it down a lot now, as it simply got to effective, LOL.
> 
> To put it short: in my direct testing hole vs tube is at least 8-10dB more effective, so yeah, pretty noticable


Yeah, I turned my down as well, otherwise it’s just too brutal!


----------



## SBuger

^^^ ah I see, I was thinking you had the driver turned out like Magly's with magnet inside. But maybe I wasn't seeing right in his pics.

Yeah, there have been a couple flicks that I like the BB dropped off more under 30hz. May have been Dracula. One of the episodes could have been pretty hot though in that area IIRC. But for everything else I've been liking it pretty much flat.


----------



## SBuger

m0j0 said:


> Yeah, I turned my down as well, otherwise it’s just too brutal!


LOL, yeah these BB's can hurt ya


----------



## DesertDog

SBuger said:


> LOL, yeah these BB's can hurt ya


Just wait until the athletic supporter BOSS!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ ah I see, I was thinking you had the driver turned out like Magly's with magnet inside. But maybe I wasn't seeing right in his pics.
> 
> Yeah, there have been a couple flicks that I like the BB dropped off more under 30hz. May have been Dracula. One of the episodes could have been pretty hot though in that area IIRC. But for everything else I've been liking it pretty much flat.


Yes, Magly’s pic in post 1040 was to show me how thight it is with magnet in. You can see the magnet pretty much touching the springs, so it needs to be spaced out if mounted like that. The springs compress a lot actually when seated, so it is probably better to mount it magnet out, and then try to space it inwards as much as possible instead, like i mentioned. It might work with a 3/4" MDF spacer ring or two in there.


----------



## Nalleh

Got some work done on rebuilding the TR sleds last week. New plywood sheets, so should be much more steady than the pieced together old HB prototype.

Here is a pic of it from below. Note the little triangular piece above the red air hose, LOL.










I still used the 2x4 pieces, as they are ok, but looks much better with a one piece board 










Flip it over and mount the tubes. Used double sided tape this time. 24" tubes.










And taped some heavy duty plastic under the tubes, making them sealed.










Flip it right way again, 18" mounts from above because of a insane thick surround, and connecting it all.










The board under the couch has seen better days, but is pretty custom made to fit under it, so i still use it. And i got the center VNF mounted, as i could use the old placement for it, the two outher ones will need to be higher to clear the 18", so will do that later. Also MA’s are in place now.










And just a look from behind the seat, also showing the BB. And there is the two BK’s in there too 










And on friday, after 5 weeks of repair, no replacement screen available, waiting for credit approval, our new TV finally arrived.
The wonderful Philips OLED developed some awful burn-in after 1.5 years, so we got full credit on the warranty, and now we got a Samsung QLED. QE82Q60 










Haven’t done too much tweaking yet on the sleds, more or less running the old setting, but it is a rather large improvement, LOL!!
Those 18" CLHB is just out of this world! Holy moly they have some incredible displacement available, and sealing them with the tape and plastic just made them even better, as they no longer blow out air past the tubes, but converts it to more stroke insted. AWSOME!!!

Will post more when i get some more tweaking and impressions done


----------



## m0j0

The TR Beast! Very nice work and truly inspiring, as always!


----------



## Magly

Have you tried using different pressure in the tubes under the seat compared to the 18 in the back

I did some testing with different pressures during the weekend and preffered a little more pressure under the seats and lower in the back, gave me a little more of that rocking motion while keeping the JBL's and UM18's in phase which gave the upper singles a little sharper feel from being in phase, but still the feeling below 5Hz with them out of phase is a little stronger, but I'm keeping them in phase for now

I ended up with 5psi in the 24 inch tuber under each seat and 3psi for the single driver under each armrest and 3psi for the UM18's aswell


----------



## Nalleh

Magly said:


> Have you tried using different pressure in the tubes under the seat compared to the 18 in the back
> 
> I did some testing with different pressures during the weekend and preffered a little more pressure under the seats and lower in the back, gave me a little more of that rocking motion while keeping the JBL's and UM18's in phase which gave the upper singles a little sharper feel from being in phase, but still the feeling below 5Hz with them out of phase is a little stronger, but I'm keeping them in phase for now
> 
> I ended up with 5psi in the 24 inch tuber under each seat and 3psi for the single driver under each armrest and 3psi for the UM18's aswell


Actually yes! And i agree comletely, the ones under the seat seems to want more pressure, while the CLHB wants less pressure. And your pressures sounds about the same as i arrived at.

By accident i ran just 3psi on the HB under the seats last night when i watched Terminator Dark Fate, and it felt like the JBL’s under seat did not contribute as much as the CLHB, which performed just CRAZY!!!!! And this morning i checked the pressures, and sure enough: the under seat HB had just 3 psi, actually making them touch the iso’s without load.

So yeah, when sitting in the seat, using the same pressure on both HB and CLHB make it kind of lopsided, with the sled being lower in the front, so more pressure is needed to make it even.

Question back: have you separated the hoses for each seat, left center and right? Or do you have them all connected with Y or T hoses?

Reason i ask is i had the left and right Y- connected to one fill valve, and it resulted in lopsided left/right tubes, where i almost touched the iso’s under my seat while all that air escaped to the right seat which was much higher(no one sitting there).

So i recommend seperating not only front and back, but also left and right tubes.
However, might not be a problem in your setup as you have a three seater and probably sit in the middle one when watching alone


----------



## SBuger

Lookin' ...and I KNOW feelin' KILLER Mr. Nalleh !!!!!


----------



## LastButNotLeast

Title of the thread is WAY out of date. 
Michael


----------



## Magly

Nalleh said:


> Question back: have you separated the hoses for each seat, left center and right? Or do you have them all connected with Y or T hoses?
> 
> Reason i ask is i had the left and right Y- connected to one fill valve, and it resulted in lopsided left/right tubes, where i almost touched the iso’s under my seat while all that air escaped to the right seat which was much higher(no one sitting there).
> 
> So i recommend seperating not only front and back, but also left and right tubes.
> However, might not be a problem in your setup as you have a three seater and probably sit in the middle one when watching alone


Yes I have all of the tubes separated, I used some 30cm long valve extentions that just screwed right in the valve on the tubes and just have them going through the platform so I can access them from under the seats


----------



## DesertDog

How's the plastic work over using a board? Did you A/B it? I had been thinking of using a 1/8" board when I do mine but the plastic would be a lot easier.


----------



## m0j0

DesertDog said:


> How's the plastic work over using a board? Did you A/B it? I had been thinking of using a 1/8" board when I do mine but the plastic would be a lot easier.


Good question! I have been wondering the differences between the various methods used to seal the tubes myself.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> How's the plastic work over using a board? Did you A/B it? I had been thinking of using a 1/8" board when I do mine but the plastic would be a lot easier.


I have not found any easy acess to such thin boards, so have not tried it.

My idea is that heavy duty plastic can do what the board can do(seal the «box») but also add a bit of displacement.

Look at this exellent CAD drawing. HB on top using a board and bottom one using plastic.
When the tubes have stretched max from the driver excursion, the board(blue) is stiff and stops further movement.
When using plastic(green) and the tubes max out, there is still movement available from the much softer plastic, adding to the max available X-max of the plattform.










Just a theory though


----------



## m0j0

Nalleh said:


> I have not found any easy acess to such thin boards, so have not tried it.
> 
> My idea is that heavy duty plastic can do what the board can do(seal the «box») but also add a bit of displacement.
> 
> Look at this exellent CAD drawing. HB on top using a board and bottom one using plastic.
> When the tubes have stretched max from the driver excursion, the board(blue) is stiff and stops further movement.
> When using plastic(green) and the tubes max out, there is still movement available from the much softer plastic, adding to the max available X-max of the plattform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just a theory though


Interesting... my thought when I was contemplating the best way to seal the HB was I needed something that would be similar to a drum perhaps and in the same circular shape as the tube, so that is what led me to acrylic disks. With the weight of the system, I don't think there is an advantage to either in terms of movement, but I could be wrong. However, there might be an advantage in terms of the SPL, as I do get a fairly hard hitting thwap every once in awhile from the HB drivers sealed up with the acrylic disks, so maybe the plastic handles that better? Not sure.


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> I have not found any easy acess to such thin boards, so have not tried it.
> 
> My idea is that heavy duty plastic can do what the board can do(seal the «box») but also add a bit of displacement.
> 
> Look at this exellent CAD drawing. HB on top using a board and bottom one using plastic.
> When the tubes have stretched max from the driver excursion, the board(blue) is stiff and stops further movement.
> When using plastic(green) and the tubes max out, there is still movement available from the much softer plastic, adding to the max available X-max of the plattform.
> 
> Just a theory though


First off, amazing drawings. So lifelike. 

Does it give more displacement for you though being on hard floors? I'm on carpet and I was thinking of the wood for the opposite reason. To get a solid surface for it to push off of. I'd probably get the extra displacement on carpet.


----------



## Nalleh

m0j0 said:


> Interesting... my thought when I was contemplating the best way to seal the HB was I needed something that would be similar to a drum perhaps and in the same circular shape as the tube, so that is what led me to acrylic disks. With the weight of the system, I don't think there is an advantage to either in terms of movement, but I could be wrong. However, there might be an advantage in terms of the SPL, as I do get a fairly hard hitting thwap every once in awhile from the HB drivers sealed up with the acrylic disks, so maybe the plastic handles that better? Not sure.


Good points.

But i can tell you earlier without sealing the tubes, my HB, even fully loaded had NO problem moving air past the tubes, as it simply «pumped past the tubes» and unloaded the pressure inside the «box». That tells me that there is more displacement to gain.
However i have just converted to sealed HB, so a bit early to tell yet, but i no longer have the problem of air escaping past the tubes.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> First off, amazing drawings. So lifelike.
> 
> Does it give more displacement for you though being on hard floors? I'm on carpet and I was thinking of the wood for the opposite reason. To get a solid surface for it to push off of. I'd probably get the extra displacement on carpet.


Thanks 

Presicely! Since i am on hardwood floors a disc wouldn’t be any different than the floor, both are a flat surface. But the plastic conforms to whatever surface, wood or carpet, and equalizes pressure over the whole surface anyway, so until you reach max tube stretch, they should both perform equal. It’s what happens after the tubes stretch max that it behaves different than a disc.


----------



## gpmbc

@Nalleh What did you use to get the plastic to stick to the bottom of the innertube? I would definitely like an easier fix than double sided tape and all the cutting of individual strips that goes with it.


----------



## Nalleh

gpmbc said:


> @Nalleh What did you use to get the plastic to stick to the bottom of the innertube? I would definitely like an easier fix than double sided tape and all the cutting of individual strips that goes with it.


Double sided tape 

If you look at the third pic, and all the way to the left in the pic, the tape roll is visible on the floor. It is this one:

https://www.tesa.com/en/craftsmen/tesa-professional-4965.html

Incredible strong and easy to shape. The red backing film is thicker and stiffer, but i still managed to use a continous roll of tape around the tube. It is narrower(19mm) than what others use, so easier to make turns with it. The adhesive tape itself is very thin, but stick to pretty much anything. Heck i even used it on my blackout curtains


----------



## gpmbc

@Nalleh Thanks and did you use it to adhere to the underside of the platform also? Any issue sticking to wood?


----------



## Nalleh

gpmbc said:


> @Nalleh Thanks and did you use it to adhere to the underside of the platform also? Any issue sticking to wood?


Yes, i did. No problem, as long as you have clean and dry surfaces on the wood.


----------



## gpmbc

Thanks, I’m in motion and coming down the home stretch.


----------



## Nalleh

Got a email from HDFury the other day about this LLDV hack made possible by their products, and i thought it was very cool that one of my pics about it was used in the announcement 










It was just a phone pic, LOL.

Here is the thread about the «hack» :

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-...luding-hdr10-conversion-w-dtm-projectors.html


----------



## Nalleh

Another REW session.

This is just time aligned with the subs as best as possible.

As you can see, even with the incredible small «boxes» on the HB’s, they still contribute to ULF FR 










And here is a TR graph of the HB alone using Qvibe/Viberry. Pretty flat curve with no EQ 










However, i am using the LPF and LS shown


----------



## Nalleh

Fiddle sticks, the app i used earlier to make the diagrams isn’t working anymore, so i had to make a simpler drawing of the LFE setup. But here it is


----------



## BP1Fanatic

[email protected]@@@@@mmmmmnnnnnn!


----------



## m0j0

Yeah, that is insane!


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Nah, nah, this is standard now


----------



## gpmbc

😂 “standard”


----------



## Nalleh

Oh, and BTW i almost forgot the new TV in all this, LOL.

From Philips OLED 65" to Samsung QLED 82". A rather noticable difference, LOL.










Yes, i know it is off center, but i can live with that 


(And you can just make out the width of the 120" screen up at the ceiling)


----------



## m0j0

Nalleh said:


> ^^^ Nah, nah, this is standard now



The "Gold" Standard for sure!


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Nalleh said:


> Yes, i know it is off center, but i can live with that


If that door leads to a closet, I vote to turn the closet into a subwoofer enclosure so you can center the TV!


----------



## SBuger

@Nalleh - Those new TR sleds look KILLER, as does everything else!!!! Awesome job!!!! Beyond crazy what these MEGA HoverBOSS's are capable of down low huh!!!  

Our systems have come a long way in a short amount of time huh, especially in the singles digit area!!!


----------



## Nalleh

BP1Fanatic said:


> If that door leads to a closet, I vote to turn the closet into a subwoofer enclosure so you can center the TV!


It leads to a hallway out of the room, so unfortunateely no 



SBuger said:


> @Nalleh - Those new TR sleds look KILLER, as does everything else!!!! Awesome job!!!! Beyond crazy what these MEGA HoverBOSS's are capable of down low huh!!!
> 
> Our systems have come a long way in a short amount of time huh, especially in the singles digit area!!!


Thanks, man 

Yeah, a lot of stuff and idea happening these days, very exciting indeed 

I need to finalize placement of the BB, still have some ideas, get it mounted in both seats and then i can get the other VNF’s in place for the full effect 

Still thinking about your BK BB idea and if i should try it. I only have 4 BK’s, today 2 of them is on my seat as CL, and then should i mount one BK BB on my seat, which would leave just one to use on the other seat, or drop BK BB on both and just go for 2x CLBK on both seats.

Exciting times to be a TR junkie for sure, but the current situation in the world is pretty much crazy in so many ways, so i don’t see any investments in new gear for a while 

Heck, i can’t even order a bluray from Amazon ATM....


----------



## m0j0

Nalleh said:


> It leads to a hallway out of the room, so unfortunateely no
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, man
> 
> Yeah, a lot of stuff and idea happening these days, very exciting indeed
> 
> I need to finalize placement of the BB, still have some ideas, get it mounted in both seats and then i can get the other VNF’s in place for the full effect
> 
> Still thinking about your BK BB idea and if i should try it. I only have 4 BK’s, today 2 of them is on my seat as CL, and then should i mount one BK BB on my seat, which would leave just one to use on the other seat, or drop BK BB on both and just go for 2x CLBK on both seats.
> 
> Exciting times to be a TR junkie for sure, but the current situation in the world is pretty much crazy in so many ways, so i don’t see any investments in new gear for a while
> 
> Heck, i can’t even order a bluray from Amazon ATM....



I have a single BK on each seat as CL BK and now also have a single BK on each seat as BB BK and they both bring a lot to the party. I was blown away by the feel of the BK on the BB (which I am calling MBK, or Mega Back Kicker), it really adds an amazing intensity to the setup. My amp went bad last week for my MBK's and I have been living without them for a week now and it's just not the same without them... You should definitely give this setup a try!


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> It leads to a hallway out of the room, so unfortunateely no
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, man
> 
> Yeah, a lot of stuff and idea happening these days, very exciting indeed
> 
> I need to finalize placement of the BB, still have some ideas, get it mounted in both seats and then i can get the other VNF’s in place for the full effect
> 
> Still thinking about your BK BB idea and if i should try it. I only have 4 BK’s, today 2 of them is on my seat as CL, and then should i mount one BK BB on my seat, which would leave just one to use on the other seat, or drop BK BB on both and just go for 2x CLBK on both seats.
> 
> Exciting times to be a TR junkie for sure, but the current situation in the world is pretty much crazy in so many ways, so i don’t see any investments in new gear for a while
> 
> Heck, i can’t even order a bluray from Amazon ATM....


Yeah, pretty darn crazy how the world is right now with everything shutting down, quarantines and all the madness taking place, folks out of work and/or home, kids out of school, etc etcl!!! Will be interesting to see how long it goes on. Hopefully not for months and months and months.

It’s almost like the virus movies we see sometimes. I guess it will be when there is a tiny bit more chaos and folks start turning into zombies when they get the virus  That might be the only thing missing right now LOL

Yeah man, the BK on the BB (MBK) is pretty kliller I must say. I’m sure you’ll love it too, if not I’d be real surprised. Try one right quick on your seat before you attach the other 2 to the other seat just to check it out. If it’s a keeper, yep you’ll need two more for all bases covered LOL. Sucks that you can’t get them right now or even the movies. Craziness!!!!


----------



## BP1Fanatic

It sucks working from home. I've been working 12-16 hour days since 3-23. Twice I logged off after midnight.


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Only 10 hours today!


----------



## Nalleh

Lots have closed here in Norway too, but still business as usual where i work. Amongst other things we make the can materials(aluminium) for canned food, and that area has actually gone up these days! You know, people are hording


----------



## BP1Fanatic

We make Similac, Pedialyte, Ensure, and the coronavirus test kits!


----------



## Nalleh

More tweaks

"Finalized" the BB placement today. I tried inverting it, magnet in-cone out by spacing it out out more, but it required a lot of spacing to be done, so i gave up and spaced it in with magnet out instead. I tried spacing it in with two 3/4 boards, but it was actually too much, so i settled for one 3/4 board.
So then it ended up like this.










And i covered it in speakerfront fabric.










Ruined it by putting the screws in, LOL. Also slimmed down the BK mounting while i was at it 










And i also sealed the BB @Magly style, using the cardboard box the driver came in, LOL.










And then just stapled the rear fabric flap over it.










Finally i opened up the BK’s again, as i got hold of the proper white lithium grease 
And i did what i think @m0j0 meant, using a fairly thick tape between the body and magnet to shim them closer, avoiding noise.











Slimming down the BK mount made more space for the VNF’s, and greasing them actually made them even smoother, and the tape made them more silent. All in all they seem "restored" 

But sealing the BB was the surprise of the day !! YIKES did it improve the performance !! It was like night and day actually, and it now is INSANE down to 4hz !! The improvement down low is incredible, and i did NOT expect that from cardboard, LOL. I did not do the "sealing" of the frontside of the seatback that you did Magly, but it doesn’t seem necessary, as i have at least the same movement of the seatback you had in your video. So thank you so much for this almost too easy trick 

I played a couple demo clips after i was done, and the improvements was easily felt, holy crap, i actually had to turn the BB down, AGAIN, as it is just off the charts effective in the current configuration. MORE than enough headroom in the whole LFE band, it just makes me giggle, LOL. The mods to the BK’s also helped, as i now had some incredible sharp and violent transients in clips i have played before. Awsome 

I have decide to postpone the BK BB for now, it will be a small task adding later on, as i want to use the two remaining on the other seat. Don’t get me wrong, i am sure it works great and i will love it, as those that tried it already is full of praise about, but hey: it is great to have room for improvement 

Anyway, now that the BB is done, i know where to mount the VNF’s, and i’ll see if i can get that done in the next few days


----------



## Magly

It's pretty cool what you can do with just a piece of cardboard LOL, I'm still using cardboard as sidewalls for the UM18 HB and it's still holding up with the amount of pressure being created inside there


----------



## m0j0

A lot of great improvements @Nalleh!


----------



## SBuger

Awesome update @Nalleh !!! Sounds like the BB with it completely sealed is wicked good too, super duper cool!!! You and Magly's seatbacks worked perfect for that!!! I guess I need to try to do it too on mine at some point. I sure wish my setbacks weren't so darn curved though, which will make it harder to get done for a good seal.


----------



## Nalleh

Got the VNF’s placed today

First i got the BK’s and BB done for the other seat, and i just took this pic before i mounted the seatback, pretty cool 
I have now rotated the BK’s 90˚ so they are narrower, which also made the 4 mounting holes narrower, so i managed to only use one 2x4 extension to mount them 










Second(left) VNF on it’s way back in. Starting to get crowded, LOL.










Final placement  The wiring is a MESS!! I need to dive into that someday and clean it up with speakons on the sleads and more hidden wires.










Lower angle shot. I used a lot of 2x4 to space them up, LOL, so it isn’t exactly pretty. But sturdy 










And the third final VNF(right) on the sleds  Seat fully reclined here.










All visible in this pic: HB, CLHB, MA, BK, BB, VNF. Holy crap!!!










The band is back together again  With all of it back on the sleds, it certainly weighted it down in the rear, so it will be exciting to test it out now  As you can see from the pics, the VNF’s is actually BEHIND the CLHB now, so it should balance it out quite a bit.
(Seat half reclined here, so not as close to VNF, as it slides forward a bit)










Let me tell you: i am more exhausted from this weekend doing all this LFE stuff, than i am from a week at work, LOL!

Haven’t connected the two remaining VNF up yet, but all the heavy lifting is done, so i can relax a bit now, and focus on tuning it all back up, now that all is mounted.

Stay tuned


----------



## m0j0

It's a lot of work for sure, but worth it in the end! Yeah, on the wires, I just gave up on trying to keep things sane and just did like Frozen and "Let It Go"...


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> All visible in this pic: HB, CLHB, MA, BK, BB, VNF. Holy crap!!!


You ain't just a kiddin .... AWESOME, soooooooooo cool that you are able to pack all that gear in there, that is some serious freaking TR firepower!!!!!  . Even with the BB, looks like your VNF's still fit in there really nice and close when reclined and way cool that you were able to keep them in the mix like that. 

Super impressive!!!! That system aught to terrorize you to death in the best way possible way and is a TR lovers dream if I ever saw one!!!! 

Fantastic update bro!!! Thanks for all the pics and stuff and I look forward to your impressions and all that in the coming days


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Thanks guys 

It is a lot of work, and a lot of though to find ideas and ways to combine everything, and as i said, it might not look to pretty at times, but i usually have kind of a time limit to finish it, as it is in a living room which is used every day, so no time to let paint dry, LOL. It would be WORLDS easier, and also faster if i had a dedicated room. But it is what it is 

I find it kind of soothing to occupie my mind with these projects, and it is really satisfying at the end of the day, when you clean away all your tools, and can enjoy the fruits of your labor 

Yeah, @SBuger, i wasn’t quite ready to part with the VNF’s yet, i actually tinkered a bit with the one that is active so far, and it defenitely adds something that the BB can’t, and it is the weight and fullness we have talked about earlier. The VNF can’t beat the punch from the BB, that is very clear, but in my case, even with just the one, when i mute it, there is something missing, for sure. So even though you and @Magly took away your VNF’s, i am not ready. At least not yet, LOL. And now with 3 of them, i expect both SPL and TR from them to increase 

It might be a while until i can get a good tune session in, as i have a full work week, but i’ll let you girls know when i do


----------



## LastButNotLeast

Nalleh said:


> It leads to a hallway out of the room, so unfortunateely no


Why would you want to leave the room?


----------



## m0j0

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Thanks guys
> 
> It is a lot of work, and a lot of though to find ideas and ways to combine everything, and as i said, it might not look to pretty at times, but i usually have kind of a time limit to finish it, as it is in a living room which is used every day, so no time to let paint dry, LOL. It would be WORLDS easier, and also faster if i had a dedicated room. But it is what it is
> 
> I find it kind of soothing to occupie my mind with these projects, and it is really satisfying at the end of the day, when you clean away all your tools, and can enjoy the fruits of your labor
> 
> Yeah, @*SBuger* , i wasn’t quite ready to part with the VNF’s yet, i actually tinkered a bit with the one that is active so far, and it defenitely adds something that the BB can’t, and it is the weight and fullness we have talked about earlier. The VNF can’t beat the punch from the BB, that is very clear, but in my case, even with just the one, when i mute it, there is something missing, for sure. So even though you and @*Magly* took away your VNF’s, i am not ready. At least not yet, LOL. And now with 3 of them, i expect both SPL and TR from them to increase
> 
> It might be a while until i can get a good tune session in, as i have a full work week, but i’ll let you girls know when i do



Man, I already have their girl nicknames ready...


Little Sugar SBuger and Magly Pie!


----------



## Nalleh

LastButNotLeast said:


> Why would you want to leave the room?


Have you seen a movie called Idiocracy ? Hilarious and in it there is a guy with a recliner in his living room with BUILT IN toilet !! That would take care of one reason to leave the room 



m0j0 said:


> Man, I already have their girl nicknames ready...
> 
> 
> Little Sugar SBuger and Magly Pie!


LOL, good one


----------



## rontalley

I can't even begin to imagine what you all organs look like with all that vibration! No one is scared of long term damage from being shook around like a rag doll while watching a movie? I'm all for TR but some of this just looks like its painful.


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ Yeah, if i run a 4hz sine wave at a decent level, it feels like the HoverBoss is doing the breathing for me


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Nalleh said:


> Have you seen a movie called Idiocracy ? Hilarious and in it there is a guy with a recliner in his living room with BUILT IN toilet !! That would take care of one reason to leave the room
> LOL, good one


Is this close enough?


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ LOL, close enough


----------



## Nalleh

Hooked up the new Thomann amp today for some testing.

It is this one:

https://m.thomannmusic.com/the_t.amp_quadro_500_dsp.htm

It is a 4 x 500w @4ohm amp with DSP at about the same pricerange as NU/NX series.

So i don’t have gear for doing proper measurements, i just switched between it and a NU6K. And did some REW.

Here is both connected to one of my Sono subs. 2x SI18" in DO sealed config. No EQ in the amps, mic at MLP and just a quick EQ in the mDSP to flatten the peaks a bit and a little LS down low. Same signal for both amps and level matched.
This is two full channels of NU6K at 4ohm vs two channel on the Thomann(half the amp) at 4 ohm. So not totally fair, but here we go.

Note the better low end on the Thomann(red curve):










This was from a comp sweep with both amps, and it was the highest the Thomann could do without compression.

However, when i removed the LS to where both curves looked the same, i could go higher before it compressed again. So these are the highest both could do without compressing(Thomann black curve). About 3dB difference:










And here is REW during content with RTA running. Iron Man soundboom clip. (Same EQ on both amps again on these below, Thomann blue curve):










Then i connected it up on the BB and CLHB instead of the NU6K i used there. Here is BB. Two JBL’s on one channel at 8 ohm(Thomann blue curve):










And here is the CLHB. 2 x 18" in series on one channel on NU6K at 8ohm vs on two channel at 4 ohm on Thomann(red curve):










I was actually surprised at how good this amp worked!! The fans are silent, no need to switch like on NX, it has DSP even LS/HS, lots of features and flexible routing of signals, and it has better damping factor the NX too, 180 vs 140, and it is half the height of a NX(although a couple inches deeper and slighly heavier).

It is bridgable, but can not do less than 4 ohm stereo or 8ohm bridged, but the NX is similar there.

Not too bad 
@aron7awol : this was just a test for LFE use, but thought you might be interested, since i mentioned this one in our mails


----------



## the7mcs

Hey check this guys theater out.... first thing I thought of was this thread and all the kinds of things you’re trying to do to go the extra step to spruce and spice up your theater

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ae3HFMXy-mo&list=WL&index=140&t=0s


----------



## Nalleh

the7mcs said:


> Hey check this guys theater out.... first thing I thought of was this thread and all the kinds of things you’re trying to do to go the extra step to spruce and spice up your theater
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ae3HFMXy-mo&list=WL&index=140&t=0s


Yup, seen it  

Think he has spent a substantional amount more money than i have though


----------



## the7mcs

I remember saying that about you when I saw how much more advanced your theater was I comparison to mine haha, 

I was reading up about the BOSS thing you guys are doing and I believe while it’s not like those D Box chairs or whatever the whole point of it is to provide some tactile feedback right..


----------



## Nalleh

the7mcs said:


> I remember saying that about you when I saw how much more advanced your theater was I comparison to mine haha,
> 
> I was reading up about the BOSS thing you guys are doing and I believe while it’s not like those D Box chairs or whatever the whole point of it is to provide some tactile feedback right..


Correct, boss is TR. Hoverboss, with inner tubes around the driver is even better 

I think D-Box has more movement, but it can’t move as fast(as in higher hz LFE) as it is a linear actuators while the TR devices we use work the whole LFE band.

Although, IIRC the guy in your link also used Crowsons MA’s. Probably for the reason i mention


----------



## Nalleh

Made some simple stands for the 4DX fans over the weekend 

A bit of measuring, cutting some boards, and a "DIY kit" is ready to assemble.










Screwed and glued them together. Not much load or strength needed, but they turned out great 










Slappped some paint on them, and just used velcro to fasten the fans, the e-Tauro below the fan and to fasten the power leads along the rear legs.










4DX has actually been packed away while i had project hoverboss going, so first movie in a while with them was Maleficent: Mistress Of Evil, and i had almost forgotten how cool the 4DX effect was  Loved the movie too, INSANELY good picture, great sound, and LFE with BEQ. Had a blast


----------



## m0j0

Nalleh said:


> Made some simple stands for the 4DX fans over the weekend
> 
> A bit of measuring, cutting some boards, and a "DIY kit" is ready to assemble.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screwed and glued them together. Not much load or strength needed, but they turned out great
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slappped some paint on them, and just used velcro to fasten the fans, the e-Tauro below the fan and to fasten the power leads along the rear legs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4DX has actually been packed away while i had project hoverboss going, so first movie in a while with them was Maleficent: Mistress Of Evil, and i had almost forgotten how cool the 4DX effect was  Loved the movie too, INSANELY good picture, great sound, and LFE with BEQ. Had a blast


Haven't watched that movie for awhile, but yeah, I remember how impressed I was with the LFE in that movie with BEQ, just outstanding! The powerful feeling of those wings just blows me away every time!


----------



## Nalleh

m0j0 said:


> Haven't watched that movie for awhile, but yeah, I remember how impressed I was with the LFE in that movie with BEQ, just outstanding! The powerful feeling of those wings just blows me away every time!


"Awhile" ?

Just to be clear, this is the second movie released in jan 2020. I guess that is technically awhile ago, if that is what you meant.

I got the first one too recently in UHD and Atmos, so look forward to revisit that one too 

But yeah, i liked them both and the picture in nr2 in UHD was breathtaking with the LLDV trick from my Vertex2


----------



## m0j0

Nalleh said:


> "Awhile" ?
> 
> Just to be clear, this is the second movie released in jan 2020. I guess that is technically awhile ago, if that is what you meant.
> 
> I got the first one too recently in UHD and Atmos, so look forward to revisit that one too
> 
> But yeah, i liked them both and the picture in nr2 in UHD was breathtaking with the LLDV trick from my Vertex2



Yeah, I am talking about the new one. I watched it when I received my UHD disc back on Feb 14th, so a couple months back... I agree, the video quality is top notch as well as the BEQ mix!


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Noted


----------



## Daniel Chaves

wait please go into more detail about this 4d setup of yours, you are the second person I have heard do this, what are you using as a controller to activate it, is it time stamp based? is this an open source project that others can do for their own home theater??? 

Also awesome ^_^


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> wait please go into more detail about this 4d setup of yours, you are the second person I have heard do this, what are you using as a controller to activate it, is it time stamp based? is this an open source project that others can do for their own home theater???
> 
> Also awesome ^_^


Hmm, it seems i haven’t updated much about the 4DX fan project in my own thread, LOL, so here is some more info from the fan thread:



Nalleh said:


> Well you know me, i couldn’t wait to the weekend to try it out
> 
> So, i got it all connected, running a signal from my last free channel of my 10x10HD, LOL, and whipped up REW generator to see how it reacted. First of all i need a loud signal to get them started, like +12 dB(max), and i started with a 60hz LPF.
> 
> BUT i am not sure the eTauro has a on/off signal only, because the fans start out VERY slow!! Like barely turning! And there are varying speeds on the fans, depending on how loud signal and a what frequency they are. Although they do make kind of "starting noises", this was with sine waves in REW. I made some tests at different frequencies and added a little EQ so it was kind of smooth and even running trough the range, and then let it rip with a movie
> 
> When watching a movie they are DEAD SILENT!!!! None of the noises when they start and are running normal is in any way audiable, so that was very cool. I even did this test with NO subs on to hear noises better, but nada
> 
> And you can defenitely feel the wind !! Even from ~7 ft. It is very late night, so i couldn’t make a proper test, but it seems promising so far.
> 
> Actually the biggest problem is the size of them, LOL. But i guess i can work it out
> 
> A preliminary placement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So we need something new now:
> 
> For sound we have REW to measure.
> For TR we have VS or Viberry.
> 
> Now we need a wind gauge, HAHAHA.





Nalleh said:


> Indeed !! For sure it might need a bit of tweaking to learn what works, like i said my experience is limited to my earlier ported SVS, where i LOVED the effect during ULF effects. And that was before BEQ and TR journey we have now.
> 
> I was very concerned about the fan noise being a major issue, and already had plans around a hush box and what not, but surprisingly i heard no noise, only feeling wind, LOL.
> 
> Now that i have it up and running i will test more this weekend with content to see what works and feels right. I don’t think it should be more than tweaking the LPF and fiddling with EQ to find what areas Gives the best effect.
> 
> I was also worried about the 2 amp max draw from the eTauro outputs when using the RCA input, and these Lasko fans have a max of 1.4 amp each. Since the eTauro only has one "LFE" output, i had to use the built in outlets on one fan to power the other. But it seems to work great.
> 
> The fans also work great on all three levels, and i think using level 3(max) might be a way to get a more dynamic function. I think i will also look into making a adjustable "nozzle" at the fan outlet to focus the wind beam even more.





Nalleh said:


> Did some more testing today.
> WOW, this is actually very cool !
> 
> It may be "blind" activation of wind, but it sure can add to the immersion. It is MADE for helicopter movies like Lone Survivor and Black Hawk Down, LOL. it was sooo cool in those scenarios  And it can blow some proper wind numbers, actually! During the chinook scene in LS and Irene scene in BHD it was simply amazing, LOL.
> 
> And the one mentioned earlier in HTTYD 3 with the waterfall entrance it added a lot to the scene, much more immersive, it is kind of a 4th dimension to all this.
> 
> There IS a delay, no way around that, but i don’t see it as a problem really, sub port wind has it too, and that is what this most remind me of: port wind.
> It is not pulsing air bursts that comes at you, it is more like a gust of wind, but there is actually very dynamic and "analog". Very surprised by how much it varied.
> I meaured volt output from the eTauro, and as i found out last test, it is very analog, and not just a 1/0 signal. Infact with no signal in it give ~60 volts out ! And then it varies up to a ~120-130 volts with the biggest LFE hits.
> 
> I did find cases were the fans made audiable noise. If there is quite scenes with a lot of LFE/ULF, they will make that start noise i was talking about earlier. Like in The Martian, where he wakes up alone on Mars, there is a ULF pulsing effect, and you can hear the fans here. And also in LS when that chinook scene is over and the chopper fly away, the sound fades away, and this also triggers that noise. The noise isn’t very loud, and probably not noticable for those who don’t know, but i was listening for it
> 
> I ended up watching Angel Has Fallen after the testing, and the added wind was really super cool!! It had a lot of flyovers, and explosions, and i found the 4DX addition did truly add to the whole experience  The drone attack was AAAWSOME!! I was just smiling and like : WWWOUW, that was cooool!
> 
> Here is a little video from BHD, where i tried to show the wind, LOL.
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/5F8q5ZIUlbY



It is all from a idea Archaea had in his thread and he did all the work, i just copied him :

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-...ing-home-theater-fans-blowers-discussion.html

He found the eTauro unit that convert the sound signal(LFE) to a power outlet that the fan is connected to.

https://www.amazon.com/eTauro-6-Out...077XXWZKG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Lot more info and links in that thread


----------



## Daniel Chaves

DUDE!!! I am soooo trying this!!! 

That is awesome!!! 


I searched the make of the fans you are using and came across this one, what do you think? or do you have a recommendation? Trying to find an all black model. 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YKXF9VC/ref=emc_b_5_t?th=1


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> DUDE!!! I am soooo trying this!!!
> 
> That is awesome!!!
> 
> 
> I searched the make of the fans you are using and came across this one, what do you think? or do you have a recommendation? Trying to find an all black model.
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YKXF9VC/ref=emc_b_5_t?th=1


Yeah, it is awsome 

That fan is actually smaller than mine, but still has the same flow and features, so i think it should work fine. Good find 

And i agree, mine has a hidious colour, LOL.


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh said:


> Yeah, it is awsome
> 
> That fan is actually smaller than mine, but still has the same flow and features, so i think it should work fine. Good find
> 
> And i agree, mine has a hidious colour, LOL.


I wonder if smaller might mean louder... as Imagine the larger models use larger fan blades that I would have to assume dont have spin as fast for similar output which would mean it to be quieter but I could be completely wrong about that in this situation, Im just going off of my experience with computer fans...


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> I wonder if smaller might mean louder... as Imagine the larger models use larger fan blades that I would have to assume dont have spin as fast for similar output which would mean it to be quieter but I could be completely wrong about that in this situation, Im just going off of my experience with computer fans...


Good points, but i can’t help you there. I am all the way over here in Norway, and i couldn’t find the same model Archaea used either, so i had to take a chance on the similar one i found on Amazon. At least you should have the option of returning it, if it isn’t usable for you. But if you just run them normally off a power outlet, they WILL be loud, but don’t be deturred by that, as they (at least mine) is very quiet when used in this way.

The big size of mine is one of the negatives about using them, so i would welcome a smaller one


----------



## DesertDog

Daniel Chaves said:


> DUDE!!! I am soooo trying this!!!
> 
> That is awesome!!!
> 
> 
> I searched the make of the fans you are using and came across this one, what do you think? or do you have a recommendation? Trying to find an all black model.
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YKXF9VC/ref=emc_b_5_t?th=1


Check out this one too, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077BMBR5B?tag=price19124-20&ascsubtag=wtbs_5ea0d30edac03e240128c903. It's a little bit higher airflow than the one you posted and amazon stocks it for prime for about the same price. This one too, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E1LYHTE/ref=emc_b_5_t

@Nalleh this looks cool and pretty cheap to do. I'm going to have to read through Archaea's thread before bombarding you with questions.  Since summer is coming and I'm in the desert a fan blowing in my room is needed anyway this might be a really good fit. So many questions though, I need to get reading. One question though, for the fan I linked, how does it compare to your model? What's the CFM on yours?


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Check out this one too, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077BMBR5B?tag=price19124-20&ascsubtag=wtbs_5ea0d30edac03e240128c903. It's a little bit higher airflow than the one you posted and amazon stocks it for prime for about the same price. This one too, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E1LYHTE/ref=emc_b_5_t
> 
> @Nalleh this looks cool and pretty cheap to do. I'm going to have to read through Archaea's thread before bombarding you with questions.  Since summer is coming and I'm in the desert a fan blowing in my room is needed anyway this might be a really good fit. So many questions though, I need to get reading. One question though, for the fan I linked, how does it compare to your model? What's the CFM on yours?


Yes, that first link seems more like the size of mine.

The 4905 in your last link is the one Archaea used, and i asked Lasko about any differences before i ordered the 4900:

"Good morning and thank you for reaching out to Lasko Products LLC.

We appreciate your interest in our products. Model 4905 produces slightly more air flow than model 4900 and these units are a different color. Please see the approximate product specifications listed below.

Model 4905
CFM: 300 Low / 374 High
AMPS: Low-0.80/ High-1.40

Model 4900
CFM: 350 High / 250 Low
AMPS: Low-0.70/ High-0.94

At this time we do not test our products for decibel levels/noise ratings, as there are too many factors involved in this process. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

If you have any further questions or concerns, feel free to contact us at 1-800-233-0268. We are available Monday through Friday between the hours of 8am-5pm Eastern. 

Have a great day! 😊


Best Regards,
Candice
Customer Service Department
Lasko Products, LLC."

So, basically they are all pretty much the same..ish. Infact it puzzles me why they have so many versions, when they all look and perform so similar.

And yes, these 4DX fans are actually dual service: they provide a increased immersion in the movie, AND they provide a cooling function too. The more action, the cooler you get, LOL.
When i close off my living room for movie watching, it heats up, as the PJ and amp fans all add heat, so a little cooling is welcome. Cool thing is we have a ceiling fan too, and even with it on, the Lasko fans still provide the exact same effect to the movie


----------



## Daniel Chaves

DesertDog said:


> Check out this one too, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077BMBR5B?tag=price19124-20&ascsubtag=wtbs_5ea0d30edac03e240128c903. It's a little bit higher airflow than the one you posted and amazon stocks it for prime for about the same price. This one too, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E1LYHTE/ref=emc_b_5_t
> 
> @Nalleh this looks cool and pretty cheap to do. I'm going to have to read through Archaea's thread before bombarding you with questions.  Since summer is coming and I'm in the desert a fan blowing in my room is needed anyway this might be a really good fit. So many questions though, I need to get reading. One question though, for the fan I linked, how does it compare to your model? What's the CFM on yours?


Yeah I have that model saved too but that would be an additional ~$40 in spending for 41cfm more of airflow from each unit and its a larger footprint. Im also only sitting 10ft away from the screen which puts these about 8-9ft away so I think Im better off saving that difference to go towards something else... Unless I can determine for a fact that larger unit is overall quieter than the smaller unit then it could be worth that extra cash.


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> Yeah I have that model saved too but that would be an additional ~$40 in spending for 41cfm more of airflow from each unit and its a larger footprint. Im also only sitting 10ft away from the screen which puts these about 8-9ft away so I think Im better off saving that difference to go towards something else... Unless I can determine for a fact that larger unit is overall quieter than the smaller unit then it could be worth that extra cash.


You could order one of each, and return the loudest


----------



## DesertDog

I had been thinking of changing my sig since it was getting dated but then this happened. So it's still more valid than ever.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> I had been thinking of changing my sig since it was getting dated but then this happened. So it's still more valid than ever.


Awsome !!

Nothing is more fun than spending other people’s money, LOL !!


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh said:


> You could order one of each, and return the loudest





DesertDog said:


> I had been thinking of changing my sig since it was getting dated but then this happened. So it's still more valid than ever.


Mine is arriving May 2nd too ^_^ 

I also ordered everything else I need to get the basics of it going except for the blower fans, Home Depot has a few models so Im going to get them from there as that is easier to try out and return than Amazon.  

I dont have a miniDSP so that will be a later purchase for now Im going to use a cheaper mechanical crossover to set my lowpass and adjust its gain just to see how I like it, then eventually I will buy a miniDSP to control it and my subs.


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Just get the Mindsp 2x4 HD right away !!

I see you have two different sub models and buttkickers, so the mindsp will be incredible valuble to get them all aligned. And a MAJOR bonus is you can get into BEQ with that mindsp to REALLY take your movie watching to the next level! You will not regret it


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Just get the Mindsp 2x4 HD right away !!
> 
> I see you have two different sub models and buttkickers, so the mindsp will be incredible valuble to get them all aligned. And a MAJOR bonus is you can get into BEQ with that mindsp to REALLY take your movie watching to the next level! You will not regret it


Oh I know I wont regret it, but to get that and the mic and so on is like $382 so I dont have the founds to burn for that just yet, going to do a couple side gigs and use that money towards that so hopefully sometime next month but things with the virus and all is pretty slow so I too have to take it slow.


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> Oh I know I wont regret it, but to get that and the mic and so on is like $350 so I dont have the founds to burn for that just yet, going to do a couple side gigs and use that money towards that so hopefully sometime next month but things with the virus and all is pretty slow so I too have to take it slow.


Noted  But do make the Minidsp the next thing on the list  It is THAT good


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Just get the Mindsp 2x4 HD right away !!
> 
> I see you have two different sub models and buttkickers, so the mindsp will be incredible valuble to get them all aligned. And a MAJOR bonus is you can get into BEQ with that mindsp to REALLY take your movie watching to the next level! You will not regret it


I may have a chance to get this for $200? is that worth the purchase? over say the 2x4 HD model, I just dont want to get something that is old or not as capable as say the 2x4HD? 
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-8-x-out


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> I may have a chance to get this for $200? is that worth the purchase? over say the 2x4 HD model, I just dont want to get something that is old or not as capable as say the 2x4HD?
> https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-8-x-out


NO !!

Please hold out for the HD version !

The cheaper ones has different hardware and software. No good 

And they can not use the WI-DG which makes it wifi capable.


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh said:


> NO !!
> 
> Please hold out for the HD version !
> 
> The cheaper ones has different hardware and software. No good


Thank you, I just wasnt sure and I figured if I asked anyone you would know. Thanks.


----------



## DesertDog

Daniel Chaves said:


> I may have a chance to get this for $200? is that worth the purchase? over say the 2x4 HD model, I just dont want to get something that is old or not as capable as say the 2x4HD?
> https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-8-x-out


I'd go for the 2x4HD over it. Looking at the plugin for it, it only has 5 PEQ slots. That's worse than the other "bad" miniDSPs that only have 6. Having more filters helps with both BEQ and with EQing your subs flat. 

I really wish miniDSP would release a new model that has 8-10 outputs that has the same processing ability as the 2x4HD. I'm using all 4 of my outs now and could use a couple more. I'm probably going to have to get another 2x4HD and daisy chain them together like I set up for gpmbc.


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> Thank you, I just wasnt sure and I figured if I asked anyone you would know. Thanks.


BTW, the 2x4HD is $205 + Umik $75 = $280 + shipping if you order from minidsp directly(which i recommend anyway):

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd

Shipping is $45 for me to Norway !!, so it can’t be any more for you ??

That is a bit less than your $382 ?!


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh said:


> BTW, the 2x4HD is $205 + Umik $75 = $280 + shipping if you order from minidsp directly(which i recommend anyway):
> 
> https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd
> 
> Shipping is $45 for me to Norway !!, so it can’t be any more for you ??
> 
> That is a bit less than your $382 ?!


The miniDSP 2x4HD $205, remote $5, Umik-1 $75, wireless adapter $75, $22shipping comes out to $382.


----------



## Daniel Chaves

For the next level of 4D experience... water effects lol...

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lasko-1...r-Misting-Fan-7050/203749154?modalType=drawer

on second thought yeah no... lol


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> The miniDSP 2x4HD $205, remote $5, Umik-1 $75, wireless adapter $75, $22shipping comes out to $382.


Ahh, you plan on going full in. Noted, good man 



Daniel Chaves said:


> For the next level of 4D experience... water effects lol...
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lasko-1...r-Misting-Fan-7050/203749154?modalType=drawer
> 
> on second thought yeah no... lol


Yeah, no i don’t think so, LOL. Mist is only needed under very special curcumstances, LOL. Nothing wet about a firey explosion


----------



## Apgood

Nalleh said:


> Yeah, no i don’t think so, LOL. Mist is only needed under very special curcumstances, LOL. Nothing wet about a firey explosion


I'm now picturing the conclusion of your next project where you are sitting on the couch in a flame retardant suit and some fire emitting contraption mounted on top of the wind blowers.,


----------



## vn800art

Hearth (rattling), wind & fire, plus water. Nothing more to add! I was going to add this comment before, but now I couldn't resist.
Well done! Most informative/addictive thread I ever read! Kudos !


----------



## Nalleh

Apgood said:


> I'm now picturing the conclusion of your next project where you are sitting on the couch in a flame retardant suit and some fire emitting contraption mounted on top of the wind blowers.,


Yeah, maybe add a heat gun, LOL.



vn800art said:


> Hearth (rattling), wind & fire, plus water. Nothing more to add! I was going to add this comment before, but now I couldn't resist.
> Well done! Most informative/addictive thread I ever read! Kudos !


Thanks for the props, nice of you to say


----------



## DesertDog

Well, Amazon lied to me about shipping when I ordered the eTauro. It shipped last night and is out for delivery right now. So I'm running to HomeDepot since the one by me carries the fans. 

What are you using for for a cross over for it and are you giving it any sort of curve?


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Well, Amazon lied to me about shipping when I ordered the eTauro. It shipped last night and is out for delivery right now. So I'm running to HomeDepot since the one by me carries the fans.
> 
> What are you using for for a cross over for it and are you giving it any sort of curve?


How fun!

Here is my setttings(fans at bottom):



Nalleh said:


> My settings.
> 
> Subject to change as i always fiddling. Will update when needed.
> LPF for LFE in AVR: 120hz
> AVR LFE sub channel output level: -8dB on both.
> 
> All amp gain knobs at max.
> 
> * All setting made with 10x10HD MiniDSP unless otherwise noted.
> 
> *HoverBOSS (4x JBL 12")*
> LS @ 10hz/+8dB/Q0.7
> LS @ 10hz/+4.4dB/Q0.5
> LS @ 10hz/+5dB/Q0.7
> LPF @ 10hz 24dB BW !
> In Phase
> Gain +5dB
> 
> *CantileverHoverBOSS (2x SI18")*
> LS @ 10hz/+8dB/Q0.7
> LS @ 10hz/+4.4dB/Q0.5
> LS @ 10hz/+5dB/Q0.7
> LPF @ 10hz 24dB BW !
> In Phase
> Gain +5dB
> 
> *BK LFE’s (2 per seat direct mount on rear of seat)*
> Flat !
> LPF @ 35hz 6dB BW
> In phase
> Gain -3dB
> 
> *Crowson MA’s (6x )*
> LS 10hz/+4dB/Q0.7
> LS @ 10hz/+4.4db/Q0.5
> HS 54hz/-8dB/Q0.7
> No LPF !
> In phase
> Gain -1dB
> 
> *VNF Subs (3x 4cuft Sealed cabs w/ 4x12"JBL+2x DF SLAPS- 1 behind each seat)*
> LS @ 12hz/+4.5dB/Q0.9
> LPF @ 70hz 12dB BW
> In Phase
> Gain -2dB
> 
> *BB (1x per seatback)*
> Flat
> LPF 80hz 12dB BW
> Gain -5dB
> 
> *4DX (1x fan per seat)*
> LS @ 10hz/+5dB/Q0.8
> LS @ 48hz/+7dB/Q0.7
> LPF @ 50hz 12dB BW
> Inverted
> Gain +8dB (unbalanced output)


I am using RCA/ unbalanced output on the 10x10 for the fans, which is why i need so much gain and LS. I think.
I could probably try to open the 10x10 and change the input/output sensitivity, to get back to more normal gains, but it works just fine with those settings, so.....why worry 

Point is: IMO the fans works best when they replicate a ported sub’s port wind, which is what i was used to(SVS PB12/2 with ports facing MLP). I believe Archaea complained about a explosion gave cold wind, as it would be hot IRL, but i don’t see it that way 

In other words: fans blow when big things and LFE effect happen on screen. Which i found worked best with a setting not unlike a normal sub.


----------



## DesertDog

Well, I got it hooked up and can't say I'm blown away yet.  I'm going to have to play with the setting more and probably turn it up some more. Using the RP1 race to test I was barely feeling it at MLP which is about 7.5' from the fan. If I turn the fan on I look like the Maxell blown away ad. So I know it has the power. It's just not getting a strong enough signal. Time to play around with setting a bit.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Well, I got it hooked up and can't say I'm blown away yet.  I'm going to have to play with the setting more and probably turn it up some more. Using the RP1 race to test I was barely feeling it at MLP which is about 7.5' from the fan. If I turn the fan on I look like the Maxell blown away ad. So I know it has the power. It's just not getting a strong enough signal. Time to play around with setting a bit.


Indeed ! What setting are you at now? And you are of course using the F0 output on the eTauro?

It is just a matter of trying. Give it more gain and test. Give it more LS and test.

That scene from RP1 is exellent to test it, the fans should be active through that whole scene, and when the dinosaur and King Kong enters, you should really feel a blast at your face 

Did you have the 2x4HD ?


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> Indeed ! What setting are you at now? And you are of course using the F0 output on the eTauro?
> 
> It is just a matter of trying. Give it more gain and test. Give it more LS and test.
> 
> That scene from RP1 is exellent to test it, the fans should be active through that whole scene, and when the dinosaur and King Kong enters, you should really feel a blast at your face
> 
> Did you have the 2x4HD ?


I was just using your settings to start out and yes on F0. I had the fan on 3 too. I started at 1 and turned it up after the first run. The fan came on but it was mild. Almost like when the AC kicks on in the house. So I have to play with the levels a bit. The T-Rex and Kong kicked it up a little more but it wasn't enough to get my hair moving (I have longer hair right now). 

Yes, I'm using my 2x4HD. For now I unhooked the 12" sub that was attached to it and using that output. I bypassed everything except for your filters. I did forget to remove the 8 ms delay though. That wouldn't affect strength but I did think the effect was coming way too late. 

I'll play with it a bit more later on. I have to run an errand and then I'll hit it once I'm back.


----------



## DesertDog

@Nalleh what volume do you usually listen at? I think that might be the X factor here. I had been testing RP1 at about -10 yesterday (I usually watch movies right around it). I'm wondering now if it needs to be closer to reference to get your experience. 

I added a LS @ 1000hz/+8dB/Q0.7 (basically just boost all the lows) to your filters and it's feeling a lot more like what I was expecting from your descriptions. Watching the race I can lightly feel it throughout it as I'd expect for the bass in it with the bigger hits from the wrecking ball, t-rex, and kong being stronger to where I got some light hair movement. 

I think I'm going to bump up that filter a little bit more. The race is almost a reference scene and not too many movies are matching it. So that should make it good for most titles. 

BTW, it's so weird watching that scene with the subs and TR turned off for testing this. It's completely flat with no impact. I don't know how normies do it.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> @Nalleh what volume do you usually listen at? I think that might be the X factor here. I had been testing RP1 at about -10 yesterday (I usually watch movies right around it). I'm wondering now if it needs to be closer to reference to get your experience.
> 
> I added a LS @ 1000hz/+8dB/Q0.7 (basically just boost all the lows) to your filters and it's feeling a lot more like what I was expecting from your descriptions. Watching the race I can lightly feel it throughout it as I'd expect for the bass in it with the bigger hits from the wrecking ball, t-rex, and kong being stronger to where I got some light hair movement.
> 
> I think I'm going to bump up that filter a little bit more. The race is almost a reference scene and not too many movies are matching it. So that should make it good for most titles.
> 
> BTW, it's so weird watching that scene with the subs and TR turned off for testing this. It's completely flat with no impact. I don't know how normies do it.


I usually watch at MV -20dB, but i guess my LFE is hot at probably about reference, so yeah, as i said ; just upp the gain/ LS ‘til you like it 

But the fans should normally just kick in on the BIG hits, otherwise if they are active more or less all the time, it doesn’t feel as dynamic.(unless it is very warm ATM, and you feel the need to cool of a bit more, LOL)

However it is completely a «season to taste» situation, so.....


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> I usually watch at MV -20dB, but i guess my LFE is hot at probably about reference, so yeah, as i said ; just upp the gain/ LS ‘til you like it
> 
> But the fans should normally just kick in on the BIG hits, otherwise if they are active more or less all the time, it doesn’t feel as dynamic.
> 
> However it is compeltely a «season to taste» situation, so.....


Well, that was only in the race scene and I was staring it right after the big jump at the start and ending after the Kong chest thumps. So there's pretty much constant bass between those two points. Like right now I have a YouTube live stream playing while I'm researching something. There's nothing blowing from it. 

Another factor we need to account for when comparing settings or helping get someone going is AVR gain on the sub out. Like mine's at -9 for that output since the amp's gains dictate it. The fan doesn't have that boost in the middle of the chain like the subs/TR do. 



Nalleh said:


> (unless it is very warm ATM, and you feel the need to cool of a bit more, LOL)


It's 100 out right now and we're supposed to hit 105 on Thursday. So you be the judge if a little fan action is welcome.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Well, that was only in the race scene and I was staring it right after the big jump at the start and ending after the Kong chest thumps. So there's pretty much constant bass between those two points. Like right now I have a YouTube live stream playing while I'm researching something. There's nothing blowing from it.
> 
> Another factor we need to account for when comparing settings or helping get someone going is AVR gain on the sub out. Like mine's at -9 for that output since the amp's gains dictate it. The fan doesn't have that boost in the middle of the chain like the subs/TR do.
> 
> 
> 
> It's 100 out right now and we're supposed to hit 105 on Thursday. So you be the judge if a little fan action is welcome.


Yes, i am at -8dB on my AVR sub out too, so yeah that is part of the problem: too low signal to the fans. But that also means that it is safe to boost it in the mDSP to get the gain back up. A lot ! I would recommend putting on a 15hz LS @5dB. Then another. Then another. Until : Ahhhhhhh, BLISS !!  

Ok, we are currently @ ~45 F, so .......


----------



## Daniel Chaves

okay... you guys talking about is making me bite at the bit... Im getting that "stimulus check" on the 30th... maybe someone of that money will accidentally be used to order that miniDSP 2x4HD... 

Question in regards to that, so it has 4 outs, can I daisy chain my two 15in subs to one of those outputs, my two 12in subs to one output, my 2 buttkickers to one output and the last one to the eTauro? 

and for the two inputs, I was thinking one would be from SUB1 (from my AVR) and can that be assigned to the two outs that the subs are hooked up to and the other input coming from SUB2 for the buttkickers and fans? this way I can disable SUB2 if I dont want any of those additional effects?


----------



## DesertDog

Daniel Chaves said:


> okay... you guys talking about is making me bite at the bit... Im getting that "stimulus check" on the 30th... maybe someone of that money will accidentally be used to order that miniDSP 2x4HD...
> 
> Question in regards to that, so it has 4 outs, can I daisy chain my two 15in subs to one of those outputs, my two 12in subs to one output, my 2 buttkickers to one output and the last one to the eTauro?


Yes, but that really depends on how they set-up and location. The main issue with daisy chaining the subs is getting the gain and delay set correctly for each one when you do your sub integration in REW. If they're identical subs then the gain will most likely be the same. The delay then depends on where they're in the room for both distance and how your room reacts to them playing. Like I'm able to get away with doing my VNFs in pairs due to location.


----------



## Daniel Chaves

DesertDog said:


> Yes, but that really depends on how they set-up and location. The main issue with daisy chaining the subs is getting the gain and delay set correctly for each one when you do your sub integration in REW. If they're identical subs then the gain will most likely be the same. The delay then depends on where they're in the room for both distance and how your room reacts to them playing. Like I'm able to get away with doing my VNFs in pairs due to location.


Gotcha, my two 15" subs are identical and at the front of my home theater evenly spaced between themselves and the MLP. My two 12" subs are identical and are stacked on top of each other directly behind the MLP. So I believe I should be okay daisy chaining them. 

Im going to start watching as many REW and miniDSP videos on youtube so I can have a better understanding of both. 

Also if I didnt mention it before, I really do appreciate everyone's advice as I am still learning a lot so I appreciate your knowledge and patience.


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> Gotcha, my two 15" subs are identical and at the front of my home theater evenly spaced between themselves and the MLP. My two 12" subs are identical and are stacked on top of each other directly behind the MLP. So I believe I should be okay daisy chaining them.
> 
> Im going to start watching as many REW and miniDSP videos on youtube so I can have a better understanding of both.
> 
> Also if I didnt mention it before, I really do appreciate everyone's advice as I am still learning a lot so I appreciate your knowledge and patience.


Yes, then it should work great as you described it 

But realize that if you use sub1 out from AVR to two differently placed subs, you need to time aling them using the delay feature on the miniDSP. Not a problem to do at all, just wanted to mention that. Unless both front subs and the rear sub are at placed at the same distance from MLP.


----------



## DesertDog

Daniel Chaves said:


> Gotcha, my two 15" subs are identical and at the front of my home theater evenly spaced between themselves and the MLP. My two 12" subs are identical and are stacked on top of each other directly behind the MLP. So I believe I should be okay daisy chaining them.
> 
> Im going to start watching as many REW and miniDSP videos on youtube so I can have a better understanding of both.
> 
> Also if I didnt mention it before, I really do appreciate everyone's advice as I am still learning a lot so I appreciate your knowledge and patience.


Like @nalleh said, you should be ok on it. But need to do your time alignments. 

For watching videos, I'd recommend this one from Home Theater Gurus. He walks you through setting up multiple subs with REW for time alignment and then generating a house curve and filters. It's the easiest and most straight forward one I've seen on it.


----------



## Chris Young

*Maybe a line driver...*

Ordered the eTauro 6-Outlet Music Synchronized Power Strip. Definitely all in on this project. Have fans to try also. As for the signal gain some may want to try a line driver to kick the output up some more from the mindsp HD. A Clean Box Pro will work and some other companies make them as well. eTouro will be here about the 7th of May for me. I will test it at that time if the line driver is needed or not. 
Have fun


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Okay so I have everything except for the miniDSP and its related gear so Im just going straight off my AVR and OMG THIS IS AMAZING!!!

By the way if you have not watched TOP GUN with this wind setup... DO IT NOW!!!!! I was giggling like a freaking school girl the entire time... So AWESOME! ^_^


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Awsome, so glad you liked it  It sure can add to the immersiveness of a movie, huh?


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Awsome, so glad you liked it  It sure can add to the immersiveness of a movie, huh?


yeah it really adds a fun element to watching movies. Oh I just placed an ordered for the miniDSP 2x4HD and UMIK-1 Mic.


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> yeah it really adds a fun element to watching movies. Oh I just placed an ordered for the miniDSP 2x4HD and UMIK-1 Mic.


Awsome, i knew you couldn’t resist the force of the BEQ


----------



## Nalleh

Project Fat Tube

Ok, so i got the fat tubes the other day, so today i dismantled the whole sleds and changed from the tiny ~2" bike tubes to the much fatter 5" fat bike tubes.

Here they are together no air in them.










Thing is, inflated to "usable" levels the height(diameter) isn’t that different, but the air pressure is massively diferrent.

Here is old on left, new barely inflated in the middle, and ~3 psi on the right. WAY to much pressure to use here BTW, and ~5" height.
Also note how much more uniform the new ones are in shape/diameter.











New ones in place. Even though they are 26" compared to the old 24", the old ones was a lot more inflated, ~4psi, while the new one i am guessing below 1 !! psi. So they are about same size and fits in the same place as old ones.










I just made some short demos so far, but i can not believe the difference !! I am actually at a loss for words, because not only is the single digits even bigger!! But they seem to be much more responsive, punchy, snappy. More precise, if you can believe it! But again the single digits!!! YIKES, how can just different tubes do this? There is MASSIVE movements down to 2!!! I repeat TWO hz!!!!! HOLY COW, the movement is just silly!!
With the old tubes, it was amazing down to 4 hz, but then decreased a lot by 3,5hz, but the rocking motion i get now at 2hz is UNBELIEVABLE, LOL!!
But i still have to say my recent discovery of the 10hz 24dB slope LPF on the Hoverboss has simply wokened them up, like as they were actually off before, LOL. They really are soooo dynamic and presice now, i can not belive it !
And this improved even more with these new fat tubes, and i BARELY have any air in them!! They are SUPERSOFT to touch, but still hold up the sleds at the same height as before, and earlier i had ~4psi with the old tubes, so they were much harder/inflated.


Ok, while i had everything apart, i also adding some mass to the SLAPS  Easy enough when they were off the sleds. I got some heavy square shims earlier that weights 75 grams each. I put 3 of them on each SLAPS, on top of the 255 gram mass that was there from the beginning.

Here is the original disc on the scale, and the shims i used above.










So i put one in front and two behind the cone for a total of ~240 gram + the original 255grams = 500 gram mass(longer bolt too).
So it look like this now 










This made them sound more "grown up", more weight to them, and more punchy. And yeah, it defenitely helped down low too, they shake all the way down to the single digits now, so that was awsome 
No measurements yet, i’ll see if i can get some done tomorrow 

And some more VNF/TR porn, while we are at it, LOL.


















Nice view at the rear of seat


----------



## SBuger

^^^ I just commented on all this in the TR thread. KILLER!!!! Dude, those pics of your TR rig are freaking EPIC!!!!!!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^^ I just commented on all this in the TR thread. KILLER!!!! Dude, those pics of your TR rig are freaking EPIC!!!!!!


Thanks man 

Yeah, i was assembling the whole thing afterwards, and i stood back and just had to take some pics of the completed sleds, LOL. Not sure i have done that with all of it on there like it is setup now. Or actually the BB and BK’s aren’t on the pics without the couch on the sleds, so it is not even all in there, hahaha.


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh you are without a doubt certifiably nuts and I love it!!!!


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Affirmative !!


----------



## gpmbc

Awesome update Nalleh! Any more specifics on your new tubes? Have a pic of the box?


----------



## Nalleh

gpmbc said:


> Awesome update Nalleh! Any more specifics on your new tubes? Have a pic of the box?


I made a post about them in the TR thread :



Nalleh said:


> Ok, so about the stacked tube vs fatter tube, i have come to the conclusion that the by far easiest method is getting fatter tubes and use them single layer as normal. I can’t use the car tubes that @m0j0 uses or the fatter non-heavy duty @SBuger used because i need the bigger 24"-26" tubes to cover 2xJBL’s, so i found these:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Maxxis-F...679808?hash=item4450c23080:g:77UAAOSwRRheFMbg
> 
> 26" and 3.8/5.0 inches width. That should be ~ double the 1.9/2.25" i use now.
> 
> Granted, single fatter tubes doesn’t give the "progressive" possibilities that the dual layer does, but i am intriqued enough from the above users reviews, that i want to test their solution.
> 
> I am however dredding the work needed to disassemble the sleds to change the tubes.
> 
> I need some time to my self to meditate.......


Pic of the box here:

https://www.deler.no/maxxis/08660/maxxis-fatbike-bil-26-slange-26-x-380-50-421gr-10mm


----------



## Nalleh

Yeah, so... i am bottoming out !!.......

Not my drivers, but Viberry !! LOL!!

I am maxing out at 150.1 "dB" @18hz ! And Viberry stops there, Hahaha.

And 141.5"dB" @ 1hz !!!!










Had a little measuring session today, and checked both in REW and Viberry, and managed to squeeze out a couple dB’s more, LOL. As if i needed that !

To say i am happy with the new Fat Tubes is a understatement, LOL !


----------



## DesertDog

@Nalleh did you have to do an eTauro for each of the fans or did daisy chaining the fans work for you? From one of the pictures it looked like you were daisy chaining. I still only have one of the big fans but I tried plugging in one of my cheap floor fans today into the big fan to see how it works. It wasn't passing through though when in pulse mode. I'm guessing there isn't enough power for the cheap one.


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Yup, i am daisy chaining, and works great for two of those same fans, for sure  Did you try the cheap fan directly in the eTauro?


----------



## Daniel Chaves

I was daisy chaining but decided to just get a Y adapter AC cable and plug them into that to share the same ac outlet just to be certain they are both getting even amounts of power.

Edit: sweet, my miniDSP and UMIK-1 arrive on the 7th. ^_^


----------



## SBuger

@Nalleh - Hey I meant to ask but forgot, did you go back with painters plastic on the bottom of the tubes this time like you did on your previous smaller tubes, or did you forgo it on these bigger softer tubes?

Also, killer TR reading on Alita and is some serious TR across the board!!! NICE!!   . That scene is insane huh!!!


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> @Nalleh - Hey I meant to ask but forgot, did you go back with painters plastic on the bottom of the tubes this time like you did on your previous smaller tubes, or did you forgo it on these bigger softer tubes?
> 
> Also, killer TR reading on Alita and is some serious TR across the board!!! NICE!!   . That scene is insane huh!!!


Yup, i did it exactly like last time, tubes taped to the plywood and to the painter plastic creating a selead enclosure.

Thanks! Yeah, that scene in Alita is EPIC 

You spoke earlier about your seats lifting from the plattform.. Well, after these demo clips i discovered the WHOLE TR SLEDS had moved a good 5 inches rearward almost touching the rear wall!!!! LOL, i need to anchor down the whole plattform, HAHAHA !!


----------



## SBuger

^^ I figured you did, just didn't see it in the photos.

LOL ...that's pretty crazy your sleds moved that much!!  I don't think my platform ever really moves like that as it's pretty big and heavy, but my poor outside seats is another story without them tied together yet. Soon though


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> ^^ I figured you did, just didn't see it in the photos.
> 
> LOL ...that's pretty crazy your sleds moved that much!!  I don't think my platform ever really moves like that as it's pretty big and heavy, but my poor outside seats is another story without them tied together yet. Soon though


Yeah, it was basically just a "remove and replace" operation, so the pictures are almost the same as last time i did it, so i didn’t bother with all the pics, LOL.

Well, a quick head math estimates the whole thing empty weigths ~800lbs, so it isn’t exactly lightweight. Heck, just the VNF is ~300lbs, LOL.

But i guess yours is bigger and even heavier.

With just the plastic on the floor it is rather easy to slide it over the floor, but i have taped some speaker box fabric under the plastic, which makes it very hard to slide over the floor. So i was surprised to discover it had moved, LOL.

I think i may have inadvertenly built a lowrider that can jump with its hydraulics , hahaha


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> ^^ Yup, i am daisy chaining, and works great for two of those same fans, for sure  Did you try the cheap fan directly in the eTauro?


I did tonight. One is a lasko home floor standing fan and the other one was a floor tower fan from costco. Both about $30 fans. Neither one worked plugged directly into the eTauro. I don't think they're getting enough power to get spinning.


----------



## SBuger

Nalleh said:


> Yeah, it was basically just a "remove and replace" operation, so the pictures are almost the same as last time i did it, so i didn’t bother with all the pics, LOL.
> 
> Well, a quick head math estimates the whole thing empty weigths ~800lbs, so it isn’t exactly lightweight. Heck, just the VNF is ~300lbs, LOL.
> 
> But i guess yours is bigger and even heavier.
> 
> With just the plastic on the floor it is rather easy to slide it over the floor, but i have taped some speaker box fabric under the plastic, which makes it very hard to slide over the floor. So i was surprised to discover it had moved, LOL.


Yeah that's pretty darn heavy. I bet your SLAP loaded VNF's have a lot to do with it then and no carpet, even though you have speaker fabric taped down. Either way, crazy you got that much power to move your sleds back that much!!



> I think i may have inadvertenly built a lowrider that can jump with its hydraulics , hahaha


Kinda like the lowrider in this vid maybe?? hahaha ....and then launching you like those dudes towards the end 






They need to reshoot this video and put you and your TR sleds in it!!!     LOL. This came up on one of the music videos my daughter was watching the other day and reminded me of some of the TR we are getting in our crazy rigs LMAO!!


----------



## Daniel Chaves

So I returned the Lasko blower fans, the $75 models from Home Depot and went ahead and bought Lasko Pro series blower fan $89, the top of the line model, super quiet, and a lot more sturdy one could say they are beefy, and the output is nuts!!! lol, I had two going about 10ft away from me on max just to see if the air pressure would reach my seats... yeah no problem... my hair was blowing to the back of my head lol, these can easily be at half power and still feel plenty of air flow. 

I also picked up wood to build similar platforms as Nalleh to raise them off the floor by 6 inches. I also plan to build a box wrapped out of speaker cloth to slip over the fans to hide them along side my subs so they dont stand out and catch people by surprise when the wind hits them. 

Oh and my miniDSP comes on the 7th I cant wait to try that out and then try out BEQ. ^_^


----------



## DesertDog

Daniel Chaves said:


> So I returned the Lasko blower fans, the $75 models from Home Depot and went ahead and bought Lasko Pro series blower fan $89, the top of the line model, super quiet, and a lot more sturdy one could say they are beefy, and the output is nuts!!! lol, I had two going about 10ft away from me on max just to see if the air pressure would reach my seats... yeah no problem... my hair was blowing to the back of my head lol, these can easily be at half power and still feel plenty of air flow.
> 
> I also picked up wood to build similar platforms as Nalleh to raise them off the floor by 6 inches. I also plan to build a box wrapped out of speaker cloth to slip over the fans to hide them along side my subs so they dont stand out and catch people by surprise when the wind hits them.
> 
> Oh and my miniDSP comes on the 7th I cant wait to try that out and then try out BEQ. ^_^


Was this returning the Model 4905 and getting Model U15610? Those are the ones on the HD website that I'm seeing that match the prices. From HD site they look almost identical. I'm surprised there's that much difference. I bout the $89 one (U15610) last week since it's the only one the store by me stocks. It's been good so far and it's quiet.


----------



## Daniel Chaves

DesertDog said:


> Was this returning the Model 4905 and getting Model U15610? Those are the ones on the HD website that I'm seeing that match the prices. From HD site they look almost identical. I'm surprised there's that much difference. I bout the $89 one (U15610) last week since it's the only one the store by me stocks. It's been good so far and it's quiet.


correct, spec wise there isnt much of a difference but build quality wise, its pretty substantial. Also as I had both models side by side, I noticed the pro model spun up faster and had overall more output across the range compared to the cheaper model. So in scenes where the cheaper model was barely putting any airflow out, the pro model had a decent amount of air flow coming from it. So I imagine it must have some better internals to handle varying voltage? I dont know not an electrical engineer. ^^;;

Edit: delivery update, Im getting the miniDSP today! Woot! I know what I am doing tonight! ^_^


----------



## Nalleh

Chris Young said:


> Ordered the eTauro 6-Outlet Music Synchronized Power Strip. Definitely all in on this project. Have fans to try also. As for the signal gain some may want to try a line driver to kick the output up some more from the mindsp HD. A Clean Box Pro will work and some other companies make them as well. eTouro will be here about the 7th of May for me. I will test it at that time if the line driver is needed or not.
> Have fun


Forgot to reply to this one 

Yeah, If you need more gain, that would surely work, great suggestion.

Sound like you have interesting days ahead with the 4DX project


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> I did tonight. One is a lasko home floor standing fan and the other one was a floor tower fan from costco. Both about $30 fans. Neither one worked plugged directly into the eTauro. I don't think they're getting enough power to get spinning.


Ok, then those kinds of fans is not good for this use, i guess


----------



## Nalleh

SBuger said:


> Yeah that's pretty darn heavy. I bet your SLAP loaded VNF's have a lot to do with it then and no carpet, even though you have speaker fabric taped down. Either way, crazy you got that much power to move your sleds back that much!!
> 
> 
> 
> Kinda like the lowrider in this vid maybe?? hahaha ....and then launching you like those dudes towards the end
> 
> https://youtu.be/Io0fBr1XBUA
> 
> They need to reshoot this video and put you and your TR sleds in it!!!     LOL. This came up on one of the music videos my daughter was watching the other day and reminded me of some of the TR we are getting in our crazy rigs LMAO!!


Actually i think it is all the Fat Tubes doing!! Besides the added mass to the SLAPS(which wasn’t the king of wobbles compared to the HB anyway), all i did was change the tubes! I even run the same setting on them now, same gain, LS, LPF and everything. They really are THAT much more effective!!!

Yup, that video is similar to how i feel, hahaha


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> correct, spec wise there isnt much of a difference but build quality wise, its pretty substantial. Also as I had both models side by side, I noticed the pro model spun up faster and had overall more output across the range compared to the cheaper model. So in scenes where the cheaper model was barely putting any airflow out, the pro model had a decent amount of air flow coming from it. So I imagine it must have some better internals to handle varying voltage? I dont know not an electrical engineer. ^^;;
> 
> Edit: delivery update, Im getting the miniDSP today! Woot! I know what I am doing tonight! ^_^


I also find it strange there was such an noticable difference, since i have very similar to the 4905, and mine works awsome !
But no worries, if you ended up with a better product, then that is great 

And good luck with the miniDSP  With that up and running with BEQ and 4DX: you need to watch ALL your movies again, man


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Okay I got the miniDSP setup, no configuration just yet, except for copying what my AVR has set into the miniDSP, like distance and DB level for the subs just as a base and set the AVR to 0 for those fields. Since Im use to how the subs sound like that I just wanted to mimic it to see if I heard a difference and it was the same which in this case is a good test. I was then able to increase the DB for just the fans so no more over the top bass to get the fans to turn since it use to share the same signal path lol... I will do a proper calibration over the weekend.


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> Okay I got the miniDSP setup, no configuration just yet, except for copying what my AVR has set into the miniDSP, like distance and DB level for the subs just as a base and set the AVR to 0 for those fields. Since Im use to how the subs sound like that I just wanted to mimic it to see if I heard a difference and it was the same which in this case is a good test. I was then able to increase the DB for just the fans so no more over the top bass to get the fans to turn since it use to share the same signal path lol... I will do a proper calibration over the weekend.


You should NOT change the settings in your AVR!! The miniDSP in itself is no reason to change anything, if it is zeroed out on those settings 

(It is said that putting the miniDSP into the chain introduces a ~3ms delay, but no worries, doing an new calib will take care of that)


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh said:


> You should NOT change the settings in your AVR!! The miniDSP in itself is no reason to change anything, if it is zeroed out on those settings
> 
> (It is said that putting the miniDSP into the chain introduces a ~3ms delay, but no worries, doing an new calib will take care of that)


Okay Im trying to figure out how to respond but I cant figure out the right words. So I want to leave my Audesey calibrations for the subs on my AVR instead of letting the miniDSP handle it? but if I leave those alone and then run REW to calibrate the miniDSP wont it not get proper readings? shouldn't I pick one or the other to handle all the duties for the sub calibration instead of trying to mix the two? The other reason is if left the delay on the AVR side then there will be delay for my fans and I thought you said you want to get rid of as much delay as possible since the fans take a bit to spin up? also if I leave the -DB levels for the subs on the AVR, then I wont be able to add as much DB on the miniDSP side for the fans?. Or am I completely wrong in that thinking? Im definitely still novice about all of this so Im still learning. ^^;;


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> Okay Im trying to figure out how to respond but I cant figure out the right words. So I want to leave my Audesey calibrations for the subs on my AVR instead of letting the miniDSP handle it? but if I leave those alone and then run REW to calibrate the miniDSP wont it not get proper readings? shouldn't I pick one or the other to handle all the duties for the sub calibration instead of trying to mix the two? The other reason is if left the delay on the AVR side then there will be delay for my fans and I thought you said you want to get rid of as much delay as possible since the fans take a bit to spin up? also if I leave the -DB levels for the subs on the AVR, then I wont be able to add as much DB on the miniDSP side for the fans?. Or am I completely wrong in that thinking? Im definitely still novice about all of this so Im still learning. ^^;;


I was spesifically responding to you setting the DISTANCE setting on the AVR sub outs to 0. I think you might be confusing distance with delay 

In your AVR after Audyssey, the speaker with the longest distance is the one getting 0(zero) delay. This is the speaker that the sound uses the longest time to reach you ears at MLP. So all the other speakers that are closer to you, gets a delay added, so that all speakers sounds arrive at your ear at the same time.

So: longer distance setting= less delay
Shorter distance setting = more delay

By setting your distance setting to 0(zero), you are adding max delay to your subs. Does that make sense?

The gain settings aren’t THAT problematic, and can be set either way.

The way i do it, is i run REW first with Audyssey off to see how the subs look. Then i EQ them manually to flatten the peaks and dips, so that when i run Audyssey afterwards, it doesn’t need to correct the curve as much. This again leaves a flatter signal for your TR devices


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh said:


> I was spesifically responding to you setting the DISTANCE setting on the AVR sub outs to 0. I think you might be confusing distance with delay
> 
> In your AVR after Audyssey, the speaker with the longest distance is the one getting 0(zero) delay. This is the speaker that the sound uses the longest time to reach you ears at MLP. So all the other speakers that are closer to you, gets a delay added, so that all speakers sounds arrive at your ear at the same time.
> 
> So: longer distance setting= less delay
> Shorter distance setting = more delay
> 
> By setting your distance setting to 0(zero), you are adding max delay to your subs. Does that make sense?
> 
> The gain settings aren’t THAT problematic, and can be set either way.
> 
> The way i do it, is i run REW first with Audyssey off to see how the subs look. Then i EQ them manually to flatten the peaks and dips, so that when i run Audyssey afterwards, it doesn’t need to correct the curve as much. This again leaves a flatter signal for your TR devices



Ah okay, gotcha that makes a lot more sense. Thank you.


----------



## DesertDog

Daniel Chaves said:


> Okay Im trying to figure out how to respond but I cant figure out the right words. So I want to leave my Audesey calibrations for the subs on my AVR instead of letting the miniDSP handle it? but if I leave those alone and then run REW to calibrate the miniDSP wont it not get proper readings? shouldn't I pick one or the other to handle all the duties for the sub calibration instead of trying to mix the two? The other reason is if left the delay on the AVR side then there will be delay for my fans and I thought you said you want to get rid of as much delay as possible since the fans take a bit to spin up? also if I leave the -DB levels for the subs on the AVR, then I wont be able to add as much DB on the miniDSP side for the fans?. Or am I completely wrong in that thinking? Im definitely still novice about all of this so Im still learning. ^^;;


If you're going to be running REW and doing a sub calibration with it (like in the video I linked to last week) here's what you want to do:

Configure subs with REW and the miniDSP. At the end of this subs are all set up as one virtual sub off of one of the AVR's outputs.
Run Audyssey through the iPhone app and let it calculate with the sub. It will see the virtual sub and set the gain, distance, and EQ based on it and integrate it with everything else like normal.
Since the subs have already been EQed in the first step I don't want Audyssey messing with it. In the config in the app go into "MultiEQ Filter Frequency Range", select Subwoofer from the drop down, and then drag the slider all the way to 20 hz on the left. That essentially disables the Audyssey EQ for the subs. REW sweeps of the subs with Audyssey on should now match the sweeps with it disabled.

Once everything is set-up you tweak the distance like Nalleh was talking about to get "negative" delay for TR devices or fans. My AVR has 2 sub outs and I use one for the subs and one for the TR stuff. If you do this when you run Audyssey have the miniDSP route both inputs to the subs so that it does it's multisub calculation correctly.


----------



## Daniel Chaves

DesertDog said:


> [*]Since the subs have already been EQed in the first step I don't want Audyssey messing with it. In the config in the app go into "MultiEQ Filter Frequency Range", select Subwoofer from the drop down, and then drag the slider all the way to 20 hz on the left. That essentially disables the Audyssey EQ for the subs. REW sweeps of the subs with Audyssey on should now match the sweeps with it disabled.
> [/LIST]
> 
> Once everything is set-up you tweak the distance like Nalleh was talking about to get "negative" delay for TR devices or fans. My AVR has 2 sub outs and I use one for the subs and one for the TR stuff. If you do this when you run Audyssey have the miniDSP route both inputs to the subs so that it does it's multisub calculation correctly.


I'm on Android, this is what I have under Audyssy in the remote app. Or do I need to buy that $20 app?


----------



## DesertDog

Daniel Chaves said:


> I'm on Android, this is what I have under Audyssy in the remote app. Or do I need to buy that $20 app?


Yes, it's with the Audyssey app and not the Denon AVR app. It's worth getting for the extra control and so that you can keep and switch between different configs. Note that if you get it you have the run Aud through it. The current settings on the AVR don't get downloaded to it.


----------



## Nalleh

^^^^Agreeing with DD here, the Audussey app is much better than doing it with the AVR. And you can do so much more with it. It is a no brainer, really


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Before I click buy, I wanted to make sure this was the app being discussed.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dmholdings.AudysseyMultEq


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> Before I click buy, I wanted to make sure this was the app being discussed.
> 
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dmholdings.AudysseyMultEq


Yup, that’s the one


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh said:


> Yup, that’s the one


Thanks


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Build the stands for the blower fans. Just need to paint the frame black. 😁

I will be building a secondary frames later that will be wrapped in speaker cloth that will enclose the blower fans so they blend with the rest of the audio gear. 😊

Raising it 6inches help clear my foot rest so the wind isn't blocked.


----------



## Nalleh

^^ Nice work  And yes, that is the reason i built stand for mine too.

I was thinking the same, building some frames around the whole fan with speaker fabric around, but haven’t gotten that far yet


----------



## Sekosche

The last pics you posted of the TR sled are my favorite to date! That thing is an absolute monster, and you can’t even see the BK’s, hover tubes, fans, and all the other aspects of your system. It’s so intricate no single photo can capture all the awesome.

I’ve been so busy with projects at the new house, motivation to get my TR devices going in the media room is fading fast. I’m still waiting on a pair of low tuned subs, an Epson 5050UB, and Atmos speakers to arrive to really complete the room.

I’ve invested so much time and money in my audio and TR the last few years, I feel like taking a step back and finally enjoying excellent picture quality in a dedicated room and just regular amounts of TR on a suspended floor. I even considered selling my Crowsons and DIY subs I can’t fit in the new room (or get up the stairs). Blasphemy?! 

We’ll see how long this feeling lasts. The hover boss y’all are rocking is very tempting to at least try on just the MLP.

Hope your side of the pond is doing well!


----------



## Daniel Chaves

I think my fans are toast, now they make a loud rattling sound.... maybe these were not any better than the previous model or maybe its the miniDSP, not sure, before when I had it fed the same signal as my front subs it never rattle this badly... not sure where to start to trouble shoot.


----------



## Nalleh

Sekosche said:


> The last pics you posted of the TR sled are my favorite to date! That thing is an absolute monster, and you can’t even see the BK’s, hover tubes, fans, and all the other aspects of your system. It’s so intricate no single photo can capture all the awesome.
> 
> I’ve been so busy with projects at the new house, motivation to get my TR devices going in the media room is fading fast. I’m still waiting on a pair of low tuned subs, an Epson 5050UB, and Atmos speakers to arrive to really complete the room.
> 
> I’ve invested so much time and money in my audio and TR the last few years, I feel like taking a step back and finally enjoying excellent picture quality in a dedicated room and just regular amounts of TR on a suspended floor. I even considered selling my Crowsons and DIY subs I can’t fit in the new room (or get up the stairs). Blasphemy?!
> 
> We’ll see how long this feeling lasts. The hover boss y’all are rocking is very tempting to at least try on just the MLP.
> 
> Hope your side of the pond is doing well!


Hi there, thanks for the props and yes we are doing fine on this side of the pond  Actually pretty normal day-to-day up here, still normal at work too, so can’t complain  Hope the same in your neck of the woods 

Yeah, tell me about it, LOL the Sleds sure have been packed full of gear lately, HAHA. I am actually rather happy with how "stealth" it has ended up, all things considering 

Great you hear you are getting closer with your media room, i think your plan sounds good, but i wouldn’t sell the MA’s ! They are probably the easiest way for you to get some TR to start with 

However: since you are basically starting over, WHEN you feel the need for more TR, i would defenitely start with a hoverboss! I think you will be amazed at the improved wobble they can produce


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> I think my fans are toast, now they make a loud rattling sound.... maybe these were not any better than the previous model or maybe its the miniDSP, not sure, before when I had it fed the same signal as my front subs it never rattle this badly... not sure where to start to trouble shoot.


That is a real bummer! Is the rattling if you put the fans on a normal outlet too?


----------



## DesertDog

Daniel Chaves said:


> I think my fans are toast, now they make a loud rattling sound.... maybe these were not any better than the previous model or maybe its the miniDSP, not sure, before when I had it fed the same signal as my front subs it never rattle this badly... not sure where to start to trouble shoot.


Hmm, I'm going to have to check mine now. I heard a rattle in a heavy bass scene over the weekend. I thought it was the eTauro though since I have it and the fan sitting on top my my monolith 12" right now. At the time it sounded like the eTauro was bouncing a bit.


----------



## DesertDog

I'm definitely getting a rattling in the fan. I'm not sure what's triggering it though. If I turn the fan on it doesn't make the rattle nor does it make it all the time when bass hits. It seems like it's just a certain frequency range or something. I haven't been able to narrow it down yet though.


----------



## Nalleh

Hmm, i think i have watched 8-10 movies with mine, and no rattles.... maybe there is a difference in the fans.....


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh said:


> That is a real bummer! Is the rattling if you put the fans on a normal outlet too?


Okay so getting full power and changing it between 0-3, there is no rattling, works fine. 




DesertDog said:


> I'm definitely getting a rattling in the fan. I'm not sure what's triggering it though. If I turn the fan on it doesn't make the rattle nor does it make it all the time when bass hits. It seems like it's just a certain frequency range or something. I haven't been able to narrow it down yet though.


Yeah I am thinking the same thing, there is moments where it does not rattle but I have far more moments when it rattles a lot so I feel like its certain frequencies or pulses of a frequency??? Im not sure, but if I feed it a constant signal from REW, it doesnt matter what frequency it rattles. 




Nalleh said:


> Hmm, i think i have watched 8-10 movies with mine, and no rattles.... maybe there is a difference in the fans.....


Maybe, try running a REW Generated Signal sound wave through them and see if you can get them to rattle? if you cant then well I will return these fans and order the same exact ones as you and see if I then notice the difference.


----------



## Nalleh

^^Yes, when running sine waves from REW to the fans, they do make some noises, in my case i would call it "stuttering" noises, but they are not present when watching movies. So far...


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> ^^Yes, when running sine waves from REW to the fans, they do make some noises, in my case i would call it "stuttering" noises, but they are not present when watching movies. So far...


Do you have Netflix? I know I got it with the last two episodes of The Last Kingdom that I watched. I'll grab time stamps when I get a chance for testing if you do.


----------



## Sekosche

Nalleh said:


> Hi there, thanks for the props and yes we are doing fine on this side of the pond  Actually pretty normal day-to-day up here, still normal at work too, so can’t complain  Hope the same in your neck of the woods
> 
> Yeah, tell me about it, LOL the Sleds sure have been packed full of gear lately, HAHA. I am actually rather happy with how "stealth" it has ended up, all things considering
> 
> Great you hear you are getting closer with your media room, i think your plan sounds good, but i wouldn’t sell the MA’s ! They are probably the easiest way for you to get some TR to start with
> 
> However: since you are basically starting over, WHEN you feel the need for more TR, i would defenitely start with a hoverboss! I think you will be amazed at the improved wobble they can produce



I don’t think I would actually sell my MA’s, because as you said, they’re the easiest to integrate and were my first real forays into single digit TR. But trying the hover boss is about all I have left to experience...until the next big thing anyway. 

After building half a dozen subs and multiple boss platforms in the last couple years only to essentially dismantle/discard them when we moved, it kind of sucked all the DIY energy out of my sails for a bit (still have all the drivers and a couple enclosures). So keeping the setup simple will hopefully allow more time to relax and just enjoy content for a while. 

I haven’t even had subs plugged in for several months now, so at this rate, it will be like experiencing a lot of bass and TR for the first time in a brand new blacked out room, on a suspended floor, with new seating, and with a better PJ to boot. Not to mention the back log of films I’ve missed out on in the last 6 months my theater has been shut down, so I don’t feel I’ll truly be missing out on too much. 

I still peruse all the awesome AV threads like yours for inspiration and admire your passion and energy for the hobby, but I think my days of a new DIY project every few months are over. I am well into my 30’s after all, and according to my kids, that’s basically ancient.

All that said, throwing an 18” driver cantilevered with a fat tube under just the MLP for a HB trial would only take like what 20 or 30 minutes to throw together?! Might as well.


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> Do you have Netflix? I know I got it with the last two episodes of The Last Kingdom that I watched. I'll grab time stamps when I get a chance for testing if you do.


Sorry, late reply. Yes i have Netflix.


----------



## Nalleh

Sekosche said:


> I don’t think I would actually sell my MA’s, because as you said, they’re the easiest to integrate and were my first real forays into single digit TR. But trying the hover boss is about all I have left to experience...until the next big thing anyway.
> 
> After building half a dozen subs and multiple boss platforms in the last couple years only to essentially dismantle/discard them when we moved, it kind of sucked all the DIY energy out of my sails for a bit (still have all the drivers and a couple enclosures). So keeping the setup simple will hopefully allow more time to relax and just enjoy content for a while.
> 
> I haven’t even had subs plugged in for several months now, so at this rate, it will be like experiencing a lot of bass and TR for the first time in a brand new blacked out room, on a suspended floor, with new seating, and with a better PJ to boot. Not to mention the back log of films I’ve missed out on in the last 6 months my theater has been shut down, so I don’t feel I’ll truly be missing out on too much.
> 
> I still peruse all the awesome AV threads like yours for inspiration and admire your passion and energy for the hobby, but I think my days of a new DIY project every few months are over. I am well into my 30’s after all, and according to my kids, that’s basically ancient.
> 
> All that said, throwing an 18” driver cantilevered with a fat tube under just the MLP for a HB trial would only take like what 20 or 30 minutes to throw together?! Might as well.


Well, look at it this way: since you already have built all that stuff, it should go WAY easier this second time, since you now have a lot more experience and know more about tips and tricks 

No subs on?? WTF is wrong with you ?? You need to grow a pair 

Thanks, glad to be of inspiration, but into your 30’s?? You’re just a kid, man! I am into my 50’s, and have no problem building stuff, LOL.

Yup, building a 18" CLHB is easily done in a short afternoon  You KNOW you won’t regret it


----------



## Daniel Chaves

So my first go around using REW after watching that how to. I think I did alright for the subs that I have? After AutoREW generated the EQ, I added two more just raise a few dips to help flatten out the low and high end of the frequency range. 

Thoughts? Good? Bad? Okay for what it is? 

Also did you use REW with the Buttkickers? I figured since they are not really producing sound that it's not effective for such, same with the fans. 

Also painted my stands. 🙂


----------



## meles

Nalleh said:


> Fiddle sticks, the app i used earlier to make the diagrams isn’t working anymore, so i had to make a simpler drawing of the LFE setup. But here it is


#IHateNalleh isobaric 18 inch subs? $800 per driver? Any other options for 18's for the sled?


----------



## vn800art

Watch that hashtag! Following also the other thread about Bass TR, happy to see always new techniques and some naive ones, Soda bottles are the best last ones (but, you never know what's in the Nalleh kitchen atm!)!
Stay healthy
Regards
Alessandro


----------



## meles

Nalleh said:


> Another REW session.
> 
> This is just time aligned with the subs as best as possible.
> 
> As you can see, even with the incredible small «boxes» on the HB’s, they still contribute to ULF FR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is a TR graph of the HB alone using Qvibe/Viberry. Pretty flat curve with no EQ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, i am using the LPF and LS shown


So the Qvibe looks like a maximum output? what is the maximum SPL of the hover boss and the cantilevered boss? Your sleds appear to be pushing the limit for a driver density.


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> So my first go around using REW after watching that how to. I think I did alright for the subs that I have? After AutoREW generated the EQ, I added two more just raise a few dips to help flatten out the low and high end of the frequency range.
> 
> Thoughts? Good? Bad? Okay for what it is?
> 
> Also did you use REW with the Buttkickers? I figured since they are not really producing sound that it's not effective for such, same with the fans.
> 
> Also painted my stands. 🙂


That look rather good, nice job  Apart from maybe dial in a bit of house curve, i would leave that one alone 
I only used Auto EQ in REW for the subs, i leave the TR devices flat EQ vise. I do however use low shelf etc to shape the curve for them 



meles said:


> #IHateNalleh isobaric 18 inch subs? $800 per driver? Any other options for 18's for the sled?


The 18" subs i use are SI18HT (~$170 ea) and the alignment is dual opposed sealed in sono tubes ~9.4 cf.

I guess the UM18" is a option, SI SQL 15" another.


meles said:


> So the Qvibe looks like a maximum output? what is the maximum SPL of the hover boss and the cantilevered boss? Your sleds appear to be pushing the limit for a driver density.


Yes, Qvibe can be used for measuring max output, but it is not measuring SPL, it measures vibration(TR). It can also measure avg, and a lot of other things, it is pretty versatile. The dB scale is the TR "equivalent" of dB. Well, i haven’t reached the maximun output yet. I think.. i am still tuning 

Yes, the goal was to hide as much of the gear as possible, make it more stealth


----------



## meles

Nalleh said:


> The 18" subs i use are SI18HT (~$170 ea) and the alignment is dual opposed sealed in sono tubes ~9.4 cf.
> 
> I guess the UM18" is a option, SI SQL 15" another.
> 
> 
> Yes, Qvibe can be used for measuring max output, but it is not measuring SPL, it measures vibration(TR). It can also measure avg, and a lot of other things, it is pretty versatile. The dB scale is the TR "equivalent" of dB. Well, i haven’t reached the maximun output yet. I think.. i am still tuning
> 
> Yes, the goal was to hide as much of the gear as possible, make it more stealth


SI is stereo integrity? I don’t really get hits on SI 18 HT. Is that available for purchase now or just new old stock? I’m assuming UM 18 Is Dayton audio UM18-22?

Would it be a reasonable hope with just the sled part of your set up, the JBL 12s and the two 18s, that one could get 115 Db spl in rew to complement one’s main subwoofers which are -3 db at 19 Hz for me?


----------



## Nalleh

meles said:


> SI is stereo integrity? I don’t really get hits on SI 18 HT. Is that available for purchase now or just new old stock? I’m assuming UM 18 Is Dayton audio UM18-22?
> 
> Would it be a reasonable hope with just the sled part of your set up, the JBL 12s and the two 18s, that one could get 115 Db spl in rew to complement one’s main subwoofers which are -3 db at 19 Hz for me?


Yes, correct. The Stereo Integrity 18HT is unfortunately discontinued now. Too bad, as it was a hell of a deal, and i think i may have gotten some of the last ones, because just a couple months later, they were no longer available 

And yes, Dayton Audio has the UM18’s.

Not sure on the 115dB on the Hoverboss alone, but if you look at the REW graph you quoted, the HB alone isn’t exactly flat, and if you EQ them to be flat, that would make the TR very uneven.
They will add SPL down low though, so they might add very nice to your subs.

As i see it, these TR devices shouldn’t be EQ’ed to SOUND good, but rather adjusted to were they FEEL good. And then the resulting SPL from them just has to be what it is


----------



## meles

Nalleh said:


> Yes, correct. The Stereo Integrity 18HT is unfortunately discontinued now. Too bad, as it was a hell of a deal, and i think i may have gotten some of the last ones, because just a couple months later, they were no longer available
> 
> And yes, Dayton Audio has the UM18’s.
> 
> Not sure on the 115dB on the Hoverboss alone, but if you look at the REW graph you quoted, the HB alone isn’t exactly flat, and if you EQ them to be flat, that would make the TR very uneven.
> They will add SPL down low though, so they might add very nice to your subs.
> 
> As i see it, these TR devices shouldn’t be EQ’ed to SOUND good, but rather adjusted to were they FEEL good. And then the resulting SPL from them just has to be what it is


I just rejected my Hippo Hero at the door literally earlier this week (Hippo = Monolith 15 and rejected for shipping damage.) So that's $1400 of fun minimum for TR budget. The hope with the Hippo was to get down to minimum 16 Hz - 3db and maybe 14 Hz, but was expecting that gained extension to maybe have some near 3 db dips in it combined with my nicely corner loaded PB12-NSD which was 10.5 db stronger from 20-50 than my other PB12. I like my chances with the right Hover Boss as my PB12's are smooth up top. Just need a little help with BEQ and backing the two SVS off so they only lightly flicker their limiters for those special BEQ moments.

What do you think is going on with sealed Boss Back:
1. You have achieved a sealed box that just happens to be against the back of the listener?
2. You have a leaky sealed box directing some extra direct energy to the listener?
3. Do you think driver position matters? Meaning if you had a really thick seatback would it work the same with them pointed at the ground or sky?
4. Do you think sealed box calculations apply? I'm kind of shocked of reports of below 20 Hz bass, but I've not modelled the JBL as a sealed box.

Now for the Hover Boss (smaller sealed drivers):
1. Do you think the thicker tubes done recently are just increasing box volume and therefore extending the response lower?
2. If so how much do you think box volume increased? (Isobaric would double box volume)
3. Have you considered even fatter tires on the 18's? This would involve the cantilevered boss platfrom being at a seperate level. Do you think that could be firmly attached to the underseat portion of the BOSS and gain even lower frequencies? (I might try this myself so very interested in your thoughts.)


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Nalleh said:


> That look rather good, nice job  Apart from maybe dial in a bit of house curve, i would leave that one alone
> I only used Auto EQ in REW for the subs, i leave the TR devices flat EQ vise. I do however use low shelf etc to shape the curve for them


Yeah I didnt do a house curve as I let Audyssey Dynamic EQ handle that.


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Okay the part I need help with is understanding delay in regards to these fans and how I would go about setting that?


----------



## Nalleh

meles said:


> What do you think is going on with sealed Boss Back:
> 1. You have achieved a sealed box that just happens to be against the back of the listener?
> 2. You have a leaky sealed box directing some extra direct energy to the listener?
> 3. Do you think driver position matters? Meaning if you had a really thick seatback would it work the same with them pointed at the ground or sky?
> 4. Do you think sealed box calculations apply? I'm kind of shocked of reports of below 20 Hz bass, but I've not modelled the JBL as a sealed box.
> 
> Now for the Hover Boss (smaller sealed drivers):
> 1. Do you think the thicker tubes done recently are just increasing box volume and therefore extending the response lower?
> 2. If so how much do you think box volume increased? (Isobaric would double box volume)
> 3. Have you considered even fatter tires on the 18's? This would involve the cantilevered boss platfrom being at a seperate level. Do you think that could be firmly attached to the underseat portion of the BOSS and gain even lower frequencies? (I might try this myself so very interested in your thoughts.)


1. No, not quite.
2. Yes.
3. Yes, driver proximity to your back is crucial. This is nearfield on stereoids, and the driver flat against your back is the most effective way.
4. For BB: no. Just mount it!

1. No, in my case they ended up pretty much the same size, because the thinner ones i had to pump up a lot more, like +4psi. These fat bike tubes have less than 1 psi.
2. Again, in my case the same volume.
3. No, I think i have enough  besides, i am not done experimenting yet. Like with different air pressures. My problem is i have my 12" drivers mounted very close, so i need big tubes covering both= big diameter tubes. Same with the 18", i need big tubes. So i can’t use car tubes etc.


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> Okay the part I need help with is understanding delay in regards to these fans and how I would go about setting that?


Starting to get advanced here 

You need to find what maximum distance you can get on your sub out(s). So: make a note(or take a pic) of your current sub distances(both)in the AVR. Then change your farfield sub, which presumably is on sub1 out, to say 30ft. This will give you a "error message" with a max distance you can use(max 20ft difference from your closest speaker distance). Acccept this and you can now see what your max distance can be, and this will be the max negative delay, and will be what you should route your mDSP to send to the fans.

NOW: using this distance will be WRONG for your fearfield subs, so you need to put the delay difference back in your mDSP output for your farfields.

So example(loosely based on my numbers, your may vary):
AVR Sub1out= 13ft.
AVR Sub2 out= 6.5ft.

Changing sub1out, max usable= 22ft
Difference = 9ft. This is the (distance) delay you need to put in your mDSP. 1ms delay is ~ 1ft distance, so put ~ 9ms delay into your MDSP farfield sub output.

So, new settings:

AVR Sub1 out= 22ft (route this to CH1 input in mDSP)
AVR Sub2 out= 6.5ft (route this to CH2 input in mDSP)

mDSP
CH1 input routed to > CH1 out(farfield subs)= 9ms delay
CH2 input routed to > CH2 out(nearfield subs)= 0ms delay
CH1 input routed to > CH3 out(fans, MA’s, or whatever need negative delay)= 0ms delay.

This is just a example, but hope you follow the principle


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> Starting to get advanced here
> 
> You need to find what maximum distance you can get on your sub out(s). So: make a note(or take a pic) of your current sub distances(both)in the AVR. Then change your farfield sub, which presumably is on sub1 out, to say 30ft. This will give you a "error message" with a max distance you can use(max 20ft difference from your closest speaker distance). Acccept this and you can now see what your max distance can be, and this will be the max negative delay, and will be what you should route your mDSP to send to the fans.
> 
> NOW: using this distance will be WRONG for your fearfield subs, so you need to put the delay difference back in your mDSP output for your farfields.
> 
> So example(loosely based on my numbers, your may vary):
> AVR Sub1out= 13ft.
> AVR Sub2 out= 6.5ft.
> 
> Changing sub1out, max usable= 22ft
> Difference = 9ft. This is the (distance) delay you need to put in your mDSP. 1ms delay is ~ 1ft distance, so put ~ 9ms delay into your MDSP farfield sub output.
> 
> So, new settings:
> 
> AVR Sub1 out= 22ft (route this to CH1 input in mDSP)
> AVR Sub2 out= 6.5ft (route this to CH2 input in mDSP)
> 
> mDSP
> CH1 input routed to > CH1 out(farfield subs)= 9ms delay
> CH2 input routed to > CH2 out(nearfield subs)= 0ms delay
> CH1 input routed to > CH3 out(fans, MA’s, or whatever need negative delay)= 0ms delay.
> 
> This is just a example, but hope you follow the principle


I believe he time aligned and EQed all the subs in REW before Audyssey though which simplifies things. So for that I'd have all subs on sub1 and all TR on sub2. The distance on sub2 can then be maxed and good to go unless I'm missing something. 

So, new settings:

AVR Sub1 out= 13ft (route this to CH1 input in mDSP)
AVR Sub2 out= 22ft (route this to CH2 input in mDSP)

mDSP (basically don't touch the delays from what you did in the time alignment. 
CH1 input routed to > CH1 out(farfield subs)= 0ms delay + the delay from when time alignment was done
CH2 input routed to > CH2 out(nearfield subs)= 0ms delay + the delay from when time alignment was done 
CH1 input routed to > CH3 out(fans, MA’s, or whatever need negative delay)= 0ms delay.


----------



## meles

Nalleh said:


> 1. No, not quite.
> 2. Yes.
> 3. Yes, driver proximity to your back is crucial. This is nearfield on stereoids, and the driver flat against your back is the most effective way.
> 4. For BB: no. Just mount it!
> 
> 1. No, in my case they ended up pretty much the same size, because the thinner ones i had to pump up a lot more, like +4psi. These fat bike tubes have less than 1 psi.
> 2. Again, in my case the same volume.
> 3. No, I think i have enough  besides, i am not done experimenting yet. Like with different air pressures. My problem is i have my 12" drivers mounted very close, so i need big tubes covering both= big diameter tubes. Same with the 18", i need big tubes. So i can’t use car tubes etc.


Thank you. So the lower pressure in the bigger tubes just made them more jiggly and you expect this is the reason you got more low bass with the fatter tubes. I guess i'm going to leap in there and go with my thick rigid platform. I'm just going to have to experiment with volumes and can always fall back to mounting from bottom to keep the volume on the smaller side and even removing most of the top plywood. I know Xmax is viewed as a critical factor for BOSS, do you have any other parameters you look out for when evaluating potential drivers?

Oh and any preferred weapons you like for tire inflation? It seems you have a lot of valve extension and pressure changes are very easy for you.


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Okay I will give that a look when I get home. 

Currently my miniDSP setup is:

AVR Sub Out 1 goes to miniDSP input 1 which is connected to Output 1 (Front Right 15" Sub) and Output 2 (Front Left 15" Sub)
AVR Sub Out 2 goes to miniDSP input 2 which is connected to Output 3 (Buttkicker Amp that powers two Buttkicker LFE attached to the couch) and Output 4 (eTauro - Wind Effects)

I also noticed that A LOT of my very noticeable rattle from the blower fans comes at around 50-65hz, so I put in a crossover at 49hz at BW48, it had to be that sharp as anything with more of a roll off was just very noticeable.


----------



## Nalleh

meles said:


> Thank you. So the lower pressure in the bigger tubes just made them more jiggly and you expect this is the reason you got more low bass with the fatter tubes. I guess i'm going to leap in there and go with my thick rigid platform. I'm just going to have to experiment with volumes and can always fall back to mounting from bottom to keep the volume on the smaller side and even removing most of the top plywood. I know Xmax is viewed as a critical factor for BOSS, do you have any other parameters you look out for when evaluating potential drivers?
> 
> Oh and any preferred weapons you like for tire inflation? It seems you have a lot of valve extension and pressure changes are very easy for you.


Yes, that and that they are much fatter give more Xmax on the tubes.

PRICE, Xmax, mms and BL is some of the important factor for a boss driver. For a hoverboss size too. 12" vs 15" for example.

I have a handheld battery operated tire pump for inflating the tubes


----------



## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> I believe he time aligned and EQed all the subs in REW before Audyssey though which simplifies things. So for that I'd have all subs on sub1 and all TR on sub2. The distance on sub2 can then be maxed and good to go unless I'm missing something.
> 
> So, new settings:
> 
> AVR Sub1 out= 13ft (route this to CH1 input in mDSP)
> AVR Sub2 out= 22ft (route this to CH2 input in mDSP)
> 
> mDSP (basically don't touch the delays from what you did in the time alignment.
> CH1 input routed to > CH1 out(farfield subs)= 0ms delay + the delay from when time alignment was done
> CH2 input routed to > CH2 out(nearfield subs)= 0ms delay + the delay from when time alignment was done
> CH1 input routed to > CH3 out(fans, MA’s, or whatever need negative delay)= 0ms delay.


Good point  I was just using mine as a example. Besides, i like individual gain control of the FF and NF from the remote, and i do that from the Harmony, without the need to go into menus 

HOWEVER: you can’t use a TR device as a sub when running Audyssey! It won’t recognise it. If you wan’t it like you said, you need to reconfigure sub1 out to one sub, and sub2 out to the other sub while running Audyssey, and then do as you said afterwards.





Daniel Chaves said:


> Okay I will give that a look when I get home.
> 
> Currently my miniDSP setup is:
> 
> AVR Sub Out 1 goes to miniDSP input 1 which is connected to Output 1 (Front Right 15" Sub) and Output 2 (Front Left 15" Sub)
> AVR Sub Out 2 goes to miniDSP input 2 which is connected to Output 3 (Buttkicker Amp that powers two Buttkicker LFE attached to the couch) and Output 4 (eTauro - Wind Effects)
> 
> I also noticed that A LOT of my very noticeable rattle from the blower fans comes at around 50-65hz, so I put in a crossover at 49hz at BW48, it had to be that sharp as anything with more of a roll off was just very noticeable.


Yes, then more like DD said should work for you.

Yeah, i guess with the low shelfs i use on my fans, they are mostly working below 25-30 hz anyway, so a lower LPF sound good


----------



## sirjaymz

Nalleh said:


> Ok, so remember i put the HDFury into action again earlier. Well, my Integral was the first gen version, and it has had a few glitches since the get go. And now these came back.
> 
> So i went on the HDFury website to see if i could find something better, like a Vertex, or something.
> 
> Well, i ended up with a Vertex2, a even newer and more improved version than Vertex, and it only took 6 days from i ordered until i got it, all the way up in Norway. Man they ship fast!
> 
> And this beaty was on another level, so much more sturdy and it ouzzes quality, and the little OLED screen is really cool
> 
> This new one solved several problems.
> 
> First of all it worked flawless with my earlier idea about splitting UHD and 2D/3D BD(for including the Darbee and Mcable), same as i did with the Integral.
> 
> And it solved the Dolby Atmos MAT issue, where i couldn’t use my dual Atmos AVR’s on Netflix and ATV4K, as it somehow reverted to multichannel 7.1 as soon as i turned on AVR nr2. Not anymore, all sources work with full FrankenAtmos.
> 
> It has 3!! HDMI outputs, 2 for up to 4K full spec, and one for audio only full spec. So now instead of going through the Denon 8500 and via Zone2 HDMI to my second AVR, i simply use the third Vertex HDMI output to my second AVR for sound. Much smoother.
> 
> It has 4!! HDMI inputs, so now i connected all sources to the Vertex2 and then on to the Denon 8500. This way i can get full on-screen info about every source regarding 4K details.
> 
> And it switches automatically between the active inputs ! I am so impressed with this little gadget, it just simply works! And simplifies the use of my setup. Awsome
> 
> And it is now all programmed into my Harmony
> 
> ..photo snipped ...


 @*Nalleh* - So with this Vertex2, can you play different audio tracks into each of the AVR's as it sounds like you do the splitting here, instead of running through the 8500 first, then zone 2 to AVR 2. 

Is this still the case for your setup?



Reason I'm asking, i'm going to remux WotW as the Atmos LFE track is horrible, even with BEQ. Trying to get the best of both worlds. DTS-HD on AVR 1 , for the LFE track fed into my 2x4HD's, and Atmos on AVR2 for my overheads. 

Have you tried something similar?


----------



## Nalleh

sirjaymz said:


> @*Nalleh* - So with this Vertex2, can you play different audio tracks into each of the AVR's as it sounds like you do the splitting here, instead of running through the 8500 first, then zone 2 to AVR 2.
> 
> Is this still the case for your setup?
> 
> 
> 
> Reason I'm asking, i'm going to remux WotW as the Atmos LFE track is horrible, even with BEQ. Trying to get the best of both worlds. DTS-HD on AVR 1 , for the LFE track fed into my 2x4HD's, and Atmos on AVR2 for my overheads.
> 
> Have you tried something similar?


Not possible ! The SOURCE decides what soundtrack to play= bluray player.

And it CAN NOT play two track at the same time. And the Vertex2 (or any of them) can not do what you want either.


----------



## sirjaymz

Nalleh said:


> Not possible ! The SOURCE decides what soundtrack to play= bluray player.
> 
> And it CAN NOT play two track at the same time. And the Vertex2 (or any of them) can not do what you want either.



 Bummer.. I was hoping all audio streams were sent down the line, in which case I would be able to select what to play at each of the AVR's.
If I would have thought about this a little more, I should have realized that it's select at the SOURCE.


----------



## DesertDog

Nalleh said:


> Good point  I was just using mine as a example. Besides, i like individual gain control of the FF and NF from the remote, and i do that from the Harmony, without the need to go into menus
> 
> HOWEVER: you can’t use a TR device as a sub when running Audyssey! It won’t recognise it. If you wan’t it like you said, you need to reconfigure sub1 out to one sub, and sub2 out to the other sub while running Audyssey, and then do as you said afterwards.


When running Audyssey you route both inputs to the subs and have the the TR disabled in the miniDSP. That lets Audyssey not mess with anything different between the two sub outs. You don't want to split the subs between AVR outs when running it since one virtual sub has already been created from all of the subs and you want Audyssey to set the distance correctly. Then after running Audyssey you put the mDSP routing back to the correct settings, change the TR distance in the AVR, and pull the slider all the down to 20hz in the Audyssey app.


----------



## meles

Nalleh said:


> Yes, that and that they are much fatter give more Xmax on the tubes.
> 
> PRICE, Xmax, mms and BL is some of the important factor for a boss driver. For a hoverboss size too. 12" vs 15" for example.
> 
> I have a handheld battery operated tire pump for inflating the tubes


Brilliant. Well its game on for my BOSS project as my PB4000 arrives Friday with its 45 day return window; I want to advance my BOSS build greatly during this window so the whips are out.

You mention size of driver and I can't find @aron7awol 's post on some of the higher end boss driver candidates (can't believe I didn't bookmark it). Right now I plan to stuff 16 of the standard JBL's in a 4 x 7 foot platform to try to have a poor man's Nallah setup. My hope is that my back row of 4 isobaric JBL clams will give that different feel of your 18s, but that really seems a pipe dream. I wouldn't hesitate to snap up 4 of those 18s at the price you had for my cantilevered section. Any suggestions or future experiment I'm all ears and a willing Canary in the Boss coalmine. The clock is ticking on me because if Best Buy fire sales JBL for $30 Memorial day weekend its go time.

Oh and another long, long run curiousity is your multiple receiver setup for Atmos. If you had Denon 8500 7.1.6 would that add channels? Some really like the Auromatic upmixer (Auro) and wonder if you had dreams or schemes of taking Auro over the top. I'm in no hurry on this project and hopefully prices will come down and options expand in a few years.


----------



## Nalleh

meles said:


> Oh and another long, long run curiousity is your multiple receiver setup for Atmos. If you had Denon 8500 7.1.6 would that add channels? Some really like the Auromatic upmixer (Auro) and wonder if you had dreams or schemes of taking Auro over the top. I'm in no hurry on this project and hopefully prices will come down and options expand in a few years.


Not sure what you mean here, but i can run. 7.1.6 or 9.1.4 with the 8500. I’ve used both, and currently using 9.1.4 + what the second AVR adds.

I prefer native Atmos/DTS:X when available, and use Dolby Surround or Neural:X upmixers for those without. But i am setup for the full Auro 13.1 if needed.


----------



## Daniel Chaves

So I watched the Space X Dragon launch on Saturday with the fans going and it worked pretty well with that launch, it was pretty awesome. ^_^


----------



## Nalleh

I guess i can put up this video here too  Fun times 

Here is a video of the latest "trick" i found with inverting the CLHB compared to the HB. I actually tried this clip just now with same setup on both HB and CLHB, same phase, same EQ and 10hz/6dB LPF. it was nowhere NEAR as fun as when i run the CLHB with 10hz/24dB LPF AND inverted like on this clip. It is hilarious, LOL!!







Famous clip from The BFG. Look at the crazy Y-axis rocking(forward/backward)!!


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Jebus... lol... so at this point does the buttkickers do anything anymore? lol ^^;;


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Lol!


----------



## Nalleh

Daniel Chaves said:


> Jebus... lol... so at this point does the buttkickers do anything anymore? lol ^^;;


Oh yeah! The BK’s adds that sharp, visceral, definitive attack that none of the other devices can do, so they are staying, LOL ! Without them, everything simply gets softer


----------



## SBuger

^^^ YUP, right on the money!!!!


----------



## Nalleh

Hmm, i just did a little headcount of gear in my living room:

Speakers: 25 (Atmos).
+
Subdrivers: 24 (6x18", 18x12")(+6xSLAPS).
+
Power amps: 7.
+
AVR: 3.
+
4 BK & 6 MA.
+
A lot more gadgets and dodos 

Hmm, in a living room. Yeah, i’d say that is normal .....


----------



## Nalleh

Ohh, and i have 9 more spare JBL’s and 8 SLAPS, Hahaha.


----------



## BP1Fanatic

I would offer to buy a JBL 12, but the mounting depth is too deep. I need less than 6" for my BP4.


----------



## Nalleh

I think i have sickness.......


BTW: anyone remember the "Buy More" ??

So, these popped up in the ads the other day, had to make a "supply run", LOL!!










4 JBL’s! New! Unopened! At a bargain discount price! Had to pounce on them 😂😂😂, since i was one short on last order, and they are discontinued😁.

AND: two Arendal Sound Monitor 😁 This is a relatively new Norwegian brand that has gotten GREAT reviews on all their line of speakers and subs.

https://arendalsound.eu/

And i have been wanting to test them out for a long time. They are a bit more expensive that the Klipsch i have, but these showed up used, but in great condition and a good price, so i went for it🤓


----------



## SBuger

@;^^^ Awesome!!! Yeah you didn’t have enough drivers and needed more!! 

LOL, they are such great little drivers, yeah may as well have snagged them like you did for your future TR and Bass endeavors …cause we know it ain’t ever over!!! Hahahaha 

Cool on the speakers too!!!!


----------



## peniku8

Nalleh, you need to get a bunch of movers (powersoft). Your TR system is clearly lacking!


----------



## TheCableMan

Nalleh said:


> I think i have sickness.......
> 
> 
> BTW: anyone remember the "Buy More" ??
> 
> So, these popped up in the ads the other day, had to make a "supply run", LOL!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4 JBL’s! New! Unopened! At a bargain discount price! Had to pounce on them 😂😂😂, since i was one short on last order, and they are discontinued😁.
> 
> AND: two Arendal Sound Monitor 😁 This is a relatively new Norwegian brand that has gotten GREAT reviews on all their line of speakers and subs.
> 
> Home Page - Arendalsound.eu
> 
> And i have been wanting to test them out for a long time. They are a bit more expensive that the Klipsch i have, but these showed up used, but in great condition and a good price, so i went for it🤓


Any updates on the Arenal speakers? How do they sound compared to Klipsch?


----------



## Nalleh

TheCableMan said:


> Any updates on the Arenal speakers? How do they sound compared to Klipsch?


They are great! I did some testing with music before i changed them out, just stereo and straight, no eq.
They actually outperformed the floorstanding RF82’s!! For being a (although very big) bookshelf speaker, they sound MUCH bigger than their size, very impressive, and they sound great. However, in the «full setup» full Atmos 13.1.8 movie watching mode, just two of them doesn’t sound that much different, LOL. If i switched the whole setup, all speakers to that same brand, i would probably notice a bigger difference, but now they kind of just «blend in» with all the other speakers, LOL.
I haven’t run Audyssey after i switched, becasue i run Aud With L/R bypass anyway, i just adjusted levels. I was actually expecting to increase their levels, because the RF82‘s was way more effective(98dB vs 89dB), but i actually had to do the opposite and lower their levels, because the Klipsch is 8ohm and the Arendals are 4ohm.
I was under the impression that the horn Klipsches was considered «harsh» sounding, and these have soft dome waveguide tweeters, but when pushed, i actually found the Arendals more «harsh» than the Klipsch. Go figure. But overall they sound amazing and they look and feel very high quality build and parts.
I think having a full Arendal setup would sound amazing 😉😁


----------



## DesertDog

Interesting, RF82s were known to be a bit on the harsher side too. Klipsch fixed a lot of the harshness in the new lines. My RF7IIIs aren't harsh at all. I'm wondering if Audyssey worked its magic and toned down the harshness for you. That EQing could then be throwing off the Arendals.


----------



## TheCableMan

Nalleh said:


> They are great! I did some testing with music before i changed them out, just stereo and straight, no eq.
> They actually outperformed the floorstanding RF82’s!! For being a (although very big) bookshelf speaker, they sound MUCH bigger than their size, very impressive, and they sound great. However, in the «full setup» full Atmos 13.1.8 movie watching mode, just two of them doesn’t sound that much different, LOL. If i switched the whole setup, all speakers to that same brand, i would probably notice a bigger difference, but now they kind of just «blend in» with all the other speakers, LOL.
> I haven’t run Audyssey after i switched, becasue i run Aud With L/R bypass anyway, i just adjusted levels. I was actually expecting to increase their levels, because the RF82‘s was way more effective(98dB vs 89dB), but i actually had to do the opposite and lower their levels, because the Klipsch is 8ohm and the Arendals are 4ohm.
> I was under the impression that the horn Klipsches was considered «harsh» sounding, and these have soft dome waveguide tweeters, but when pushed, i actually found the Arendals more «harsh» than the Klipsch. Go figure. But overall they sound amazing and they look and feel very high quality build and parts.
> I think having a full Arendal setup would sound amazing 😉😁


I think the Arenal have a 50 hour burn in time as well. You Klipsh have probably toned down over the hours played on the. As well. 

I have rf82s as well and I am looking for a switch. Want to go more neutral souding.


----------



## Nalleh

TheCableMan said:


> I think the Arenal have a 50 hour burn in time as well. You Klipsh have probably toned down over the hours played on the. As well.
> 
> I have rf82s as well and I am looking for a switch. Want to go more neutral souding.


I bought the Arendals used, so they should be broken in already 😉



DesertDog said:


> Interesting, RF82s were known to be a bit on the harsher side too. Klipsch fixed a lot of the harshness in the new lines. My RF7IIIs aren't harsh at all. I'm wondering if Audyssey worked its magic and toned down the harshness for you. That EQing could then be throwing off the Arendals.


Like i said i ran both with Mult EQ in L/R Bypass, meaning Audyssey is turned off on L/R. In order words STRAIGHT. No eq on them.


----------



## larson1977

Hi,

I'm very intrigued by your setup and was wondering if you can share some full range (freq response) measurements of your setup including impulse/timing.

regards


----------



## Nalleh

larson1977 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm very intrigued by your setup and was wondering if you can share some full range (freq response) measurements of your setup including impulse/timing.
> 
> regards


Thanks. I actually don’t think i have full range graphs ! I just let Audyssey do its thing, and let it rip 😁


----------



## larson1977

Nalleh said:


> Thanks. I actually don’t think i have full range graphs ! I just let Audyssey do its thing, and let it rip 😁


Maybe an idea to measure with REW and see where yo can improve with e.g cross-overs and timing/delay/impulse? It took my setup an extra level higher


----------



## Nalleh

larson1977 said:


> Maybe an idea to measure with REW and see where yo can improve with e.g cross-overs and timing/delay/impulse? It took my setup an extra level higher


I found this, showing the crossover:









Not too bad 🤓


----------



## eeyoreDK

Hi
I don't know if this has been covered already (it is a long thread), but I am having problems with audio sync between the two receivers.
My setup consists of two Marantz SR7010. AVR 2 is connected to zone 2 output on ARV 1. After calibration everything is fine as long as material framerate is 24 fps, if it changes to 50 or 60 fps, the audio get out of sync. It is very noticeable in eg. menu click sounds where dual click sounds are heard instead of one click. Have you encountered this?


----------



## Nalleh

eeyoreDK said:


> Hi
> I don't know if this has been covered already (it is a long thread), but I am having problems with audio sync between the two receivers.
> My setup consists of two Marantz SR7010. AVR 2 is connected to zone 2 output on ARV 1. After calibration everything is fine as long as material framerate is 24 fps, if it changes to 50 or 60 fps, the audio get out of sync. It is very noticeable in eg. menu click sounds where dual click sounds are heard instead of one click. Have you encountered this?


Yup!
Yes, i have mentioned this before, and in my case i notice it easy as i have two center speakers: one below the screen from my «main» Denon 8500 AVR, and one from my «expanding» 7200 AVR above the screen as «center height». And since both are active on any content, if the sync is off, i can hear it. Most my content is 24 fps, so i don’t see much problem there, but i notice a difference in sound format, where Dolby and espesially Atmos usually is spot on, but DTS HD is off more often. I use the phone app for the AVR to make adjustments on the lip sync on the fly, as that don’t require going into any menus while watching movies, and i usually got it sorted within a minute or so into the movie.

Without a extra center i am not sure it would be that easy to rein in though 😉

If you have a extra speaker laying around, it could be worth going with this option 😋


----------



## Nalleh

Ok, it has been a while since i updated here 😮😮
I have been enjoying my setup immensly the last year or so, with the dual Atmos system just flat out working ! Picture wise too, with the RS600 and Vertex2 providing LLDV content, it has been flawless 😁😁

What HAS been happening is on the LFE side, or more spesific with the HOVERBOSS project(s), where i have made several version since last pics. From the start we were all using cone down setup with the tubes under the plywood and drivers. A while ago several of use started «inverting» the Hoverboss setup with the drivers facing cone up and plywood ABOVE the tubes, lessening the load the drivers work against. This has improved the performance MASSIVELY !! Espesially in the single digits, wich is what i love anyway 😁😁😁

So here is a couple pics of where i am at for now, LOL.

A 4x JBL ConeUpHoverBoss under the seat, a 1x18" CantiLeverHoverBoss behind the seat and a sidemounted NallehFold 4x JBL firing into the CUHB tubes through those slots seen between the drivers, boosting its performance:










And both seats:










And then the plywood sheets on top of that:










And finally the couch:









Not quite done yet, still experimenting, but i think i have found a good patent that works extremely well. As you can see, Cone Up HB requires more height, as the bottom plattform is the whole depth of the driver + some magnet clearance, but IMO it is well worth it 😁😋


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Wow!


----------



## LastButNotLeast

Nalleh's house when he's watching Edge of Tomorrow, as seen from 5 miles away:


----------



## Nalleh

^^^^ 😂🤣😂🤣😂


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Hilarious!


----------



## DesertDog

LastButNotLeast said:


> Nalleh's house when he's watching Edge of Tomorrow, as seen from 5 miles away:


Here's what it looked like inside his place.


----------



## Nalleh

^^^ 😂😂😂 you guys 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## sirjaymz

So I've read your entire thread again.. some serious TR going on, along with the sub action .. now the real question, with all of that... can you give some details on your calibration process for it all. 
I seem to be struggling with what Aud does, and how we all in certain circles/threads , like to run our subs 'hot' as it were, along with TR, however, I am not able to get the full filling audio I guess I am expecting with the Aud calibration. Do you cal with all of your subs, or just a couple? and never mind the TR, That's got to take a significant amount of time on top I would suspect. 

TL'DR - Can you please provide some details on calibration process?


----------



## am2model3

photo with the guy in ceiling is awesome!


----------



## Nalleh

sirjaymz said:


> So I've read your entire thread again.. some serious TR going on, along with the sub action .. now the real question, with all of that... can you give some details on your calibration process for it all.
> I seem to be struggling with what Aud does, and how we all in certain circles/threads , like to run our subs 'hot' as it were, along with TR, however, I am not able to get the full filling audio I guess I am expecting with the Aud calibration. Do you cal with all of your subs, or just a couple? and never mind the TR, That's got to take a significant amount of time on top I would suspect.
> 
> TL'DR - Can you please provide some details on calibration process?


Hi there, i am on vaca ATM, i’ll get back to you on this when i am back home 😉


----------



## DesertDog

sirjaymz said:


> So I've read your entire thread again.. some serious TR going on, along with the sub action .. now the real question, with all of that... can you give some details on your calibration process for it all.
> I seem to be struggling with what Aud does, and how we all in certain circles/threads , like to run our subs 'hot' as it were, along with TR, however, I am not able to get the full filling audio I guess I am expecting with the Aud calibration. Do you cal with all of your subs, or just a couple? and never mind the TR, That's got to take a significant amount of time on top I would suspect.
> 
> TL'DR - Can you please provide some details on calibration process?


If you're looking for just sub calibration check the link in my sig for multiple miniDSP setup. You can use it and just ignore the 2 miniDSP part. It's mainly based on a linked video for calibrating your subs but then I list what I do with Audyssey after it. I believe Nalleh is doing something very similar.


----------



## sirjaymz

DesertDog said:


> If you're looking for just sub calibration check the link in my sig for multiple miniDSP setup. You can use it and just ignore the 2 miniDSP part. It's mainly based on a linked video for calibrating your subs but then I list what I do with Audyssey after it. I believe Nalleh is doing something very similar.


@DesertDog - Thank you ... By reading your steps, I was able to determine that my X7200 is long in the tooth of getting upgraded. The Multi EQ Editor does NOT work with it, so I don't have the ability to modify/run from the app .. ie, probably the changes I dont' see happening under the hood and making my bass sound anemic/out of order of sorts. I wasn't even aware that I would be missing some control there, as I had never investigated further from years past of using the app to make changes. uggg..
@Nalleh had been running an x7200 a while back , but probably just another a nail in the coffin to move to the x8500 for him.
Going to have to re-think my setup. I guess I might have a couple of options. 
Move off the x7200 to the x8500/A110, and convince the wife of that... 
ORRRR put the 6300 as primary unit, ie , base layer, which the app supports that model, run x7200 as secondary, which is normally the tops (figure out speaker connections), and wait for the next flagship unit from D&M. However, since they just released the a110, and have 'upgraded' the 8500 from H to HA, I doubt they have any intention on trying to battle the COVID supply shortage, and try an release a new flagship. 
So now I'm in a quandry. squeeze a little more out of the system i have, or pull the trigger on the inflated prices, and get upgraded. 
On a side note, I have to figure out if I can squeeze one more RU out of my rack somehow, as the x7200 is 4 RU and the 8500 is 5 RU. 

You guys think I could run the 6300 as the main unit ? Can I get my front wides out of the 7200 still make it meld well with the 6300 controling the base layer?
By using 6300 as the main unit, I think I can use the Audyssey app to make changes. This would also probably be the least evasive way to implement.

So on a side note, my entire family thinks incredibly nuts on all the gear I have setup, yet, the experience is by far the best they've expeirienced, and they just don't quite understand this hobby of ours. Is this the same for you guys?


----------



## LastButNotLeast

sirjaymz said:


> So on a side note, my entire family thinks incredibly nuts on all the gear I have setup, yet, the experience is by far the best they've expeirienced, and they just don't quite understand this hobby of ours. Is this the same for you guys?


No, my wife loves the time and money I've dedicated to the hobby and appreciates it every bit as much as I do.

*NOT!*

Michael


----------



## DesertDog

sirjaymz said:


> @DesertDog - Thank you ... By reading your steps, I was able to determine that my X7200 is long in the tooth of getting upgraded. The Multi EQ Editor does NOT work with it, so I don't have the ability to modify/run from the app .. ie, probably the changes I dont' see happening under the hood and making my bass sound anemic/out of order of sorts. I wasn't even aware that I would be missing some control there, as I had never investigated further from years past of using the app to make changes. uggg..
> @Nalleh had been running an x7200 a while back , but probably just another a nail in the coffin to move to the x8500 for him.
> Going to have to re-think my setup. I guess I might have a couple of options.
> Move off the x7200 to the x8500/A110, and convince the wife of that...
> ORRRR put the 6300 as primary unit, ie , base layer, which the app supports that model, run x7200 as secondary, which is normally the tops (figure out speaker connections), and wait for the next flagship unit from D&M. However, since they just released the a110, and have 'upgraded' the 8500 from H to HA, I doubt they have any intention on trying to battle the COVID supply shortage, and try an release a new flagship.
> So now I'm in a quandry. squeeze a little more out of the system i have, or pull the trigger on the inflated prices, and get upgraded.
> On a side note, I have to figure out if I can squeeze one more RU out of my rack somehow, as the x7200 is 4 RU and the 8500 is 5 RU.
> 
> You guys think I could run the 6300 as the main unit ? Can I get my front wides out of the 7200 still make it meld well with the 6300 controling the base layer?
> By using 6300 as the main unit, I think I can use the Audyssey app to make changes. This would also probably be the least evasive way to implement.
> 
> So on a side note, my entire family thinks incredibly nuts on all the gear I have setup, yet, the experience is by far the best they've expeirienced, and they just don't quite understand this hobby of ours. Is this the same for you guys?


You probably can get away with not using the app for the step where you essentially disable Audyssey. If I have my subs properly calibrated before running REW showed not much change pre and post Audyssey for me. I'm not sure if it's the luck of my room or not though. So before dropping money I'd do a proper sub integration and then run a sweep before and after running Audyssey on your 7200 to see if it's messing up your subs. 

On buying the 8500 or not. I'd be mixed on it at this point. The unit is a little long in the tooth but from its thread it had sounded like the new flagship model won't come until 2023. On the flip side since it has been out a few years now it's selling for less than what it did when it came out, and probably what the new model will cost.


----------



## Nalleh

sirjaymz said:


> So I've read your entire thread again.. some serious TR going on, along with the sub action .. now the real question, with all of that... can you give some details on your calibration process for it all.
> I seem to be struggling with what Aud does, and how we all in certain circles/threads , like to run our subs 'hot' as it were, along with TR, however, I am not able to get the full filling audio I guess I am expecting with the Aud calibration. Do you cal with all of your subs, or just a couple? and never mind the TR, That's got to take a significant amount of time on top I would suspect.
> 
> TL'DR - Can you please provide some details on calibration process?


Ok, lets see here. You wonder about multiple sub calibration. In my case i calibrate them manually using REW. I actually redid that whole process recently to simplify it a bit.

But if you just let Audyssey do its thing, i would DEFENITELY suggest upping the level 5-8 dB after calib ! Otherwise it just sound anemic 😉.

However to avoid getting into clipping the signal from you AVR, i would try to get the sub levels a good bit into the negative side, like -8 to-11 dB on the LFE channel(s), before running Adyssey.
So, when running Audyssey and it comes to where it test the sub levels, run that test manually and try to get it as high a possible within the green area(80-82dB iirc) by upping your sub amp level(s). This should set the levels way into the negative side when done. It is never advisable to end up with LFE channel levels above 0dB! And as mentioned prefferably down at -8 to -11 post Aud.

To speed up things until you find these levels, just setup your amp assign as 2 fronts and 1 sub, and run the minimun positions Audyssey allows(3 pos IIRC). When you find those levels, go back and do a full speaker setup Audyssey.

About my recent redo:

Earlier i always EQ’ed each sub manually in REW, then time aligned all of them, then ran Aud. This resulted in a lot of individual EQ filters, and as each of them has a phase shift, that meant the end result phase was far from good. I still got a good FR curve, but not a pretty phase curve.

So now i did it a bit differently. I first time aligned them(no EQ), then i EQ’ed them all together, which now only required 4 or 5 EQ filters TOTAL! Much better and far less phase shifts. And since all subs now have the same phase shifts(EQ filters), it doesn’t matter, as it is all coherent.

Now a bit on calibrating subs AND TR.
Because subs are affected by your room, we need EQ(Audyssey) to make the FR flat again. That is great, but this means that if you have TR devices(which is not affected by your room) on that same EQ’ed signal, they will NOT receive a flat signal, and can feel off, peaky or boomy, depending on what Aud. do with your subs.

So, there are (at least) 4 ways of «seperating» the EQ needed for sub, with the flat signal needed for TR devices.

1. Turn off Audyssey ! This leaves a flat signal for TR, but also for all your speakers and subs. This is not good, unless your run it like that anyway.

2. UNDO what Audyssey does on the LFE signal ! Much better, but requires external EQ, like mDSP. Leave the signal to your subs, and then use REW to undo what Aud. does on those output channel going to TR devices. With a 2x4HD that is easy, just use the USB input😉

3. Limit Aud. FR range on the LFE output. This requires newer Denon using the Aud. app, where you can simply set the the limit all the way down to 20 hz. This means there CAN be filters below that, but likely not.

4. Pre-EQ your subs so Audyssey doesn’t touch the signal ! This keeps Audyssey acitve for all your speakers, but leaves the LFE output flat. But this also means you need to EQ your subs manually afterwards !
This is solution i use, and here is how i do it:

I want to use both subs out from my AVR, one for sub and one for TR. So sub1 is routed to mDSP input 1, and sub2 is routed to input2. In the mDSP routing i route BOTH of them to one of my main subs on output 1. This makes Audyssey do less on the signal, since both sub signals is basically the same sub.

In amp assign i do as mentioned above, set it to 2 front and 2 subs only, and do the minimum positions(3), as it speeds up this process.

Run Audyssey, and after those 3 positions, finish it.
Then run REW twice, one with Audyssey on, and the next with it OFF. Then compare those two graphs. Where Aud. boosted the signal, now put in a negative PEQ in mDSP on that frequency. Expample Aud put in a +7dB at 35hz. So put in a -7dB PEQ at that hz.
Run Aud. again with that filter, then run REW, check result with Aud on and off. Adjust more, rinse repeat until both curves looks the same.

When done, save that mDSP setup ! This way, if you have to run Audyssey again, just load this file, and Audssey will never tough the sub signal again

Now you can run the complete Aud with all speakers.

And then finally you must EQ your subs manually. You can use auto-EQ in REW, it actually works very well, and is much faster than trying filters on a wim until you get a decent curve 😉


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## Nalleh

DesertDog said:


> If you're looking for just sub calibration check the link in my sig for multiple miniDSP setup. You can use it and just ignore the 2 miniDSP part. It's mainly based on a linked video for calibrating your subs but then I list what I do with Audyssey after it. I believe Nalleh is doing something very similar.


Yes, i run it similar. I have a 2x4HD first in the chain, and then linked to a 10x10HD. I run the 2x4 for BEQ and all subs, and then all TR devices on the 10x10. My subs are pretty much done calib. vise, it is the TR i constantly mess with, LOL.


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## Nalleh

sirjaymz said:


> @DesertDog - Thank you ... By reading your steps, I was able to determine that my X7200 is long in the tooth of getting upgraded. The Multi EQ Editor does NOT work with it, so I don't have the ability to modify/run from the app .. ie, probably the changes I dont' see happening under the hood and making my bass sound anemic/out of order of sorts. I wasn't even aware that I would be missing some control there, as I had never investigated further from years past of using the app to make changes. uggg..
> @Nalleh had been running an x7200 a while back , but probably just another a nail in the coffin to move to the x8500 for him.
> Going to have to re-think my setup. I guess I might have a couple of options.
> Move off the x7200 to the x8500/A110, and convince the wife of that...
> ORRRR put the 6300 as primary unit, ie , base layer, which the app supports that model, run x7200 as secondary, which is normally the tops (figure out speaker connections), and wait for the next flagship unit from D&M. However, since they just released the a110, and have 'upgraded' the 8500 from H to HA, I doubt they have any intention on trying to battle the COVID supply shortage, and try an release a new flagship.
> So now I'm in a quandry. squeeze a little more out of the system i have, or pull the trigger on the inflated prices, and get upgraded.
> On a side note, I have to figure out if I can squeeze one more RU out of my rack somehow, as the x7200 is 4 RU and the 8500 is 5 RU.
> 
> You guys think I could run the 6300 as the main unit ? Can I get my front wides out of the 7200 still make it meld well with the 6300 controling the base layer?
> By using 6300 as the main unit, I think I can use the Audyssey app to make changes. This would also probably be the least evasive way to implement.
> 
> So on a side note, my entire family thinks incredibly nuts on all the gear I have setup, yet, the experience is by far the best they've expeirienced, and they just don't quite understand this hobby of ours. Is this the same for you guys?


The 6300 can’t do wides, and using it for the 7 base layer and then blend in the wides only from the 7200 is not optimal. The 6300 will have the wide content divided to its fronts and side surronds, so it will be duplicated.

Not having the aud. app for your 7200 is NOT a dealbraker, just do it one of the other ways i showed above 😁😁

IMO the 110 is not worth the extra money, and if you otherwise are happy with the AVR’s you have, just wait it out ‘til the new one comes along 😉🤓

Yes, i upgraded from the 7200 to the 8500, but that was to be able to go from 3 (!!) AVR’s to «just» two. So now i have the 8500 for a normal 9.1.4 and then sprinkle the 7200 on top of that with a 5.1.4 +Wides setup for a total of 13.1.8.
On top of that again i «matrix» the 7200’s fronts and the 8500 wides outputs to my wides speakers to widen the soundstage. Also called «SpecialWides» , LOL. It actually works VERY well, and by muting and unmuting the 7200 i can easily hear that difference. It truly widens up the whole front soundstage 😉😁.
Aaaand i also send the 7200 center output to the Center Height speaker, so that other than in Auro 3D it is used as «dialog lift». It is also handy for the times i mentioned earlier when the two AVR’s are not in lip sync with each other 😋


EDIT: i think i have showed this before but here is a drawing of the Atmos setup as it is today(i have actually run it like this for years):


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## LastButNotLeast

And that's not counting the dozen speakers he's sitting on.  
Michael


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## Nalleh

LastButNotLeast said:


> And that's not counting the dozen speakers he's sitting on.
> Michael


A dozen is for pussies 😜.

I got 20x12" under my couch 🤣🤣


(Since 4x12" JBL’s equal 1x18" SI HT, and i have two of the 18" + another 12x12" under there, you could say i got 20x12" 🤓)

That’s a total of 26.5 LITER of pump capacity !!! 😮😮😮😮


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## Nalleh

Did some videos ;



Nalleh said:


> Allright guys, here are some video clips for you. I had the phone on a gorilla mount on a floor lamp beside the plattform. So: on the floor, and STILL it shakes like crazy !! And the phone mic picked up something fierce on noise, which is NOT as loud as it sounds on these clips.
> 
> Anyway, some Shazaaaaaam for yee 😜😜


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## am2model3

your 13.1.8 swatmos system is inspirational! I love the ingenuity! So awesome!


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