# Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder



## alk3997

Sony announced their first 3D camcorder - the Sony HDR-TD10. It was announced at the January 2011 CES.


Information about the 3D camcorder can be found at:
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921666294297


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## NorthTV

I note that the specs reference the 3D Hd video format at MVC (original format.) Also noted that recording option includes SD/SDHC/SDXC memory cards. My question is whether the SD memory cards will be able to play 3D directly when inserted into the Panasonic 3D TV SD Memory card slot or whether the camera itself will have to be the input device. (Note the new 2011 Panasonic TV specs including the VT30 and G series reference a SD memory card input for 3D play.)


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## alk3997

Detailed specs can be found at:
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...specifications


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## NorthTV

Anxiously awaiting a test comparison of this and the new JVC 3D Camcorder.


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## alk3997




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/19803627
> 
> 
> Anxiously awaiting a test comparison of this and the new JVC 3D Camcorder.



Removed by author


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## icerat4

From what ive been reading and watching .The jvc beats out the sony.Any other thoughts on these 2 top dogs.


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## threed123

3D will ultimately be best if the lenses are the distance apart of the average eye. Then you would see the images in apparent normal size. If the lenses are closer together, which most of the camcorders are except the Fuji W3, then imagine what is 6 feet from you will appear as if you are standing further away--mabye 12 feet--why they probably call it wide angle 3D. The images will not have the same roundness feel since the lenses are not seeing "around" the object as much as they would if further apart. I have never liked this type of stereo. It looks to flat and cardboard cut-out looking. But it's probably still better than no stereo, however on a smaller TV the images will not have much depth.


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## everyperson

Quote:

Originally Posted by *alk3997* 
One interesting item on this camera is that *supposedly the 3D image (in 3D) is available on the built-in LCD without 3D glasses.* Here is the quote from the Sony info on Amazon:

*Xtra Fine 3D LCD touch panel with TruBlack technology*

A true 3D camcorder, HDR-TD10 is equipped with a 3.5-inch 3D LCD touch panel display that does not require dedicated 3D glasses for viewing.This gorgeous 3D display packs an incredible 1229k dots and is capable of displaying both 3D and 2D images with superb details.

*Parallax barrier system*

Taking advantage of how the human brain-eye system works, the 3D LCD based on the parallax barrier system employs the same concept to make 3D viewing possible without dedicated 3D glasses. By controlling the direction of light that reaches each eye separately, the 3D LCD is able to let each eye see a slightly different image, therefore allowing our brain to create a sense of depth, just as the way human see the world.
*I own the Fuji w3 3D photo/video camera and I think the 3.5" LCD screens are similar. Viewing through the screen in 3D is good only for one person, as you must be at a perfect "sweet spot" to view the 3D image perfectly. However, when you hit that sweet spot the image is very good and you can compose your shots/video and see the 3D effect as you are shooting*.


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## icerat4

Question.Since all my stuff is sony tv camaras camcorders mc5 reader av ps3 the list goes on.When and if i purchase this camcorder will i able to write the 3d captions on a dvd-rw via mc5 or do i need a bluray burner.My main goal is to have the right sony product to record all my 2d 3d stuff to dvds .Any and all advice id appericate mucho


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## icerat4

OOOOK How about does this sony have transfer jet.


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## geezin

Quote:

Originally Posted by *icerat4* 
OOOOK How about does this sony have transfer jet.
What the hell is transfer jet?


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## icerat4

Newer camaras and laptops have it see the vid below.








I just bought a sony vaio f series and this offers this 8 g memory card 99 buck.is it worth it.who know i will let ya know.docking station has been seen for 111 to 150 .I also have the tx9 very nice camara also.



Here is the dock station below
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921666079681


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## bigbarney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/19808397
> 
> 
> From what ive been reading and watching .The jvc beats out the sony.Any other thoughts on these 2 top dogs.



The JVC's lack of 5.1 sound is a deal breaker for me. I'll wait for some comparisons between the Sony and the Panny cams before I make my decision on which to buy. Most likely be the Sony though.... I already have a Sony HW2 wireless Bluetooth mic which I would like to be able to continue using


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## alk3997




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbarney* /forum/post/19991574
> 
> 
> The JVC's lack of 5.1 sound is a deal breaker for me. I'll wait for some comparisons between the Sony and the Panny cams before I make my decision on which to buy. Most likely be the Sony though.... I already have a Sony HW2 wireless Bluetooth mic which I would like to be able to continue using



Deleted by author


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## bigbarney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alk3997* /forum/post/19995407
> 
> 
> If I were doing a serious 5.1-channel mix, I'd be using external mics and then recording that on a multitrack system.



Yeah... that would just work out great with the whole family at the zoo running all over










I have the Sony HW2 wireless blue tooth center channel mic. The receiver fits on the hot shoe and the wireless mic captures the center channel remotely up to 300 feet away while the on-board surround mics *continue* to operate. The mic actually has two way communication to it. There is an earphone that fits on the receiver and another earphone that fits into the mic so that the cam operator and the subject can speak to each other form further distances. The whole thing really makes for a great communication and great 5.1 effect. So I say again.... the JVC's lack of 5.1 sound is a deal breaker for me.

http://www.generalmanual.com/Microph...Microphone.htm


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## alk3997

Quote:

Originally Posted by *bigbarney* 
Yeah... that would just work out great with the whole family at the zoo running all over










I have the Sony HW2 wireless blue tooth center channel mic. The receiver fits on the hot shoe and the wireless mic captures the center channel remotely up to 300 feet away while the on-board surround mics *continue* to operate. The mic actually has two way communication to it. There is an earphone that fits on the receiver and another earphone that fits into the mic so that the cam operator and the subject can speak to each other form further distances. The whole thing really makes for a great communication and great 5.1 effect. So I say again.... the JVC's lack of 5.1 sound is a deal breaker for me.

http://www.generalmanual.com/Microph...Microphone.htm
Append deleted by author


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## bigbarney

Quote:

Originally Posted by *alk3997* 
Do we know yet whether the HDR-TD10 will be able to do the same thing with the center channel (only) recording of an external mic?
As far as I know... yes . They haven't changed the hot-shoe spec in quite some time now and certainly no mention of any change on the TD10 so it should be the same.


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## Don Landis

Bigbarney- I modified my HW2 with a Sony ECM-77 lav mic on a 2 ft cord. I disabled the internal mic because the size of the HW2 is so big it was not easy to hide on my speaker. The addition of the professional lav mic also improved the voice quality of the dialog in the center channel. The large mic also did create lots of noise that the new lav modification eliminated. No more clothing rubbing noise or wind blasts either. Sony rep said the mics and all accessories with exception of lenses work with the 3D camcorder.


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## bigbarney

Hey... cool!

In my case though I'm just using it for family stuff so I'm not really too concerned about it being seen.


The two way communication of them I find to be just great. The last time we used it was at my kids Christmas concert. My wife was up in the second floor seats with one of the cams, and I was down on the main floor with the other. I took the mic because I was closer. My wife and I were able to keep in contact and talk about what we were each shooting.


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## Don Landis

Yes, IFB is something that I wish I had when shooting field TV shows. Only ever had that in the studio. Now we have it as amateur shooters. Only thing I wish I had is a two channel wireless system in this BT setup. I've always had two wireless mic systems for interviews on my broadcast cameras. I made up an adapter for my SR12 that allows me to mount two receivers on the bottom of the camcorder with velcro and the cables connected to a special dual XLR to single stereo mini plug I used for dual mic input. Not sure if I will be able to use that with the 3D camcorder though.


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## bigbarney

Does anybody know when this cam is going to be out??


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## Maxchance

It appears that Sony rushed the project w/o thinking about editing software. In fact, the Sony rep. at CES 2011 said the camera is for "fun" not for editing.


See You Tube video via word search:


DSMA SONY HDR-TD10 camescope HDD 3D


(Cannot post link).


That really makes no sense and is about the most idiotic statement in the history of marketing.


Nor is the camera supported for Mac OS X. I'm not sure if you can even download footage for future editing possibilities. Also, no where does it state that the supplied software can edit the footage with any computer. (Uses a new 3D PMB software package). This is supported by the statements of the Sony rep. as noted above.


The camera is available for pre-orders only, shipping out in mid-April.


Max.


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## bigbarney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Maxchance* /forum/post/20120204
> 
> 
> It appears that Sony rushed the project w/o thinking about editing software.
> 
> 
> Max.



Yes, this is known. It is also pretty much the same for the JVC cam. At present there is no way to edit MVC (mp4) or play it back through anything other than the cam. In fact the same thing happened with the avchd cams. They came out a full year before the avchd editors did.


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## icerat4

will merlin steady shot work with this unit, hum


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## bigbarney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20142320
> 
> 
> will merlin steady shot work with this unit, hum



Yes.


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## icerat4

This camcorder will not be out until the end of summer at best. Japan closed 6 of its factories







. So dont hold your breath on getting your hands on this soon. Bummer


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## alk3997




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20153078
> 
> 
> This camcorder will not be out until the end of summer at best. Japan closed 6 of its factories
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . So dont hold your breath on getting your hands on this soon. Bummer



Source?


Yes, a camcorder is a tiny thing when compared to the devistation that continues to go on in Japan. However, they were close to shipping so that not be as big a delay as you might think, which is why I ask for the source of the info.


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## icerat4

i HAVE NO SOURCE. But the new paper i lay under my parrots cage,


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## alk3997




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20154049
> 
> 
> i HAVE NO SOURCE. But the new paper i lay under my parrots cage,



It's hard to predict the impact of the quake / tsunami / radiation / electricity rationing issues at this point. For instance, we all know that automobile manufacturer has essentially stopped in Japan. However, I also read a report that two ships of Lexus vehicles left Japan yesterday. They had been ready to ship when the quake hit and weren't damaged.


So, a blanket statement that the camera will be delayed is not accurate unless Sony says so. These cameras could already be manufactured and waiting for shipment or final firmware. Could the quake (etc) cause a delay - sure could. But, until we know more that is purely speculation - even if it was newspaper speculation.


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## alk3997

Here's a web site devoted to being the first review of the HDR-TD10. Well at least he was thorough in getting the URL.

http://www.sonyhdr-td10review.com/ 


Also SonyStyle is still showing April 15, 2011 as the availability date.


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## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alk3997* /forum/post/20155146
> 
> 
> Here's a web site devoted to being the first review of the HDR-TD10. Well at least he was thorough in getting the URL.
> 
> http://www.sonyhdr-td10review.com/
> 
> 
> Also SonyStyle is still showing April 15, 2011 as the availability date.



That's the best review till now

Thanks


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## Maxchance

With only a little under a month until the cameras were due, I would suspect many are already boxed and ready to go. I would also speculate that those who pre-ordered will have the best shot at getting one.


I would be a little upset if Sony knows there will be delays and is holding back the information just to get more orders.


We will see soon enough.


M.


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## alk3997

From CNN Money,


"But Sony said it has suspended operations through March 31 at facilities making such things as camcorders, broadcasting equipment, camera lenses and microphones due to limited raw materials and components"


Full article at:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/22/news...ex.htm?iid=RNM 


While camcorders are probably a big part of this plant's output, 3D camcorders are probably a very small part and really wouldn't influence any decisions about reopening of a plant.


Also, if final assembly is done in Japan, then they'll have to find an open port, with open roads, to ship the units to their destination.


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## icerat4

Looks like i was right late june for us sony fans . O well


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## icerat4

Looks like i was wrong again. I have a shipped dated 3/24 on my account.


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## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20198919
> 
> 
> Looks like i was wrong again. I have a shipped dated 3/24 on my account.



how nice!

I just held back my finger which would have ordered a JVC TD1 last evening


looking forward to seeing your review on the sony


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## Maxchance

Has anyone actually received this camera yet?


I see people have posted that it's "been shipped" but no one has confirmed that they received it.


I called Sony and they say many "newer" video products and accessories from Japan are likely to be delayed until further notice, although a few may have shipped in advance of the Earthquake.


Thanks:


Max


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## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Maxchance* /forum/post/20220694
> 
> 
> Has anyone actually received this camera yet?
> 
> 
> I see people have posted that it's "been shipped" but no one has confirmed that they received it.
> 
> 
> I called Sony and they say many "newer" video products and accessories from Japan are likely to be delayed until further notice, although a few may have shipped in advance of the Earthquake.
> 
> 
> Thanks:
> 
> 
> Max






will see it after april 14th delayed


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## icerat4

Delayed til nov. some time.







Seems like the cams were in production when the quake hit.




hope they update the sony style page as it is not.


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## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20227508
> 
> 
> Delayed til nov. some time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like the cams were in production when the quake hit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hope they update the sony style page as it is not.




does your pre-order page say so?

november that long?


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## geezin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20227508
> 
> 
> Delayed til nov. some time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like the cams were in production when the quake hit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hope they update the sony style page as it is not.



Where are you getting your information from?


Have you actually ordered the camera? If so, where?


Thanks


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## Don Landis

While these people generally don't deal with consumer products, I will be visiting with Sony Professional and Broadcast in 2 weeks. I'll try to see what I can find out. I didn't preorder but did plan on buying the unit in May. I will also be able to talk to the reps at B&H as they are the world's largest Sony sales retailer. As soon as I find out anything new, I'll post it here. I may order at the NAB show if there are any show discounts being offered.


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## icerat4

Something is going on. I just recived email saying. Sorry your order will ship on 4/15 . This was after i had recived a email stating 3/24 its shipping. And a person on the phone said nov. At this point who knows. I can tell ya mine was preordered months ago from a sony style store thats was closing.Long story short it took sony corprate 1 month to get me a check back in the mail.After many many calls .It was horrible. But all is said and done i got the camcorder on order and just recived this email of 4/15 to ship. Which is the date on the sony style stores page. For all i went thru with the store closing and dealing with people for a month to get my money back and reorder. They gave me a great deal on the camcorder. 1/2 off the original price. So i was takin care of for the big hassle these people put me thru. I will update ya guys if i get any more new news .


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## geezin

Quote:

Originally Posted by *icerat4* 
Something is going on. I just recived email saying. Sorry your order will ship on 4/15 . This was after i had recived a email stating 3/24 its shipping. And a person on the phone said nov. At this point who knows. I can tell ya mine was preordered months ago from a sony style store thats was closing.Long story short it took sony corprate 1 month to get me a check back in the mail.After many many calls .It was horrible. But all is said and done i got the camcorder on order and just recived this email of 4/15 to ship. Which is the date on the sony style stores page. For all i went thru with the store closing and dealing with people for a month to get my money back and reorder. They gave me a great deal on the camcorder. 1/2 off the original price. So i was takin care of for the big hassle these people put me thru. I will update ya guys if i get any more new news .








Sorry, my bullcrapola meter just went to 11.


Where was the Sony Store was closing?


Why would you go to a store to preorder and not go through sonystyle when you knew the store was closing?


There is no way in hell that Sony is going to give you 50% off the 'original' price.


Your posting of different dates that you 'recived' email from Sony for shipping is at best 11 on the BS meter.


I hope the folks here pay no attention to your crap.


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## alk3997

Quote:

Originally Posted by *geezin* 
...


Where was the Sony Store was closing?


...
Not to support or deny the other statements but Google finds this for SonyStyle store closings, among other locations.
http://economy.kansascity.com/?q=node/6712


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## icerat4

Ok kids. Non believers. I bought a viao and this 3d camcorder from sony style in ill . the old orchard mall in skoike il. I paid cash for both units at the same time.Both were to be shipped to the store were i would pick them up. The computer came in and the store was to set it up. Heres where the problem comes in. They found out they were closing the store days later.So the camara that was going to be shipped would go to a store that wasnt there, So they cancelled the order and said id get a gift card in the mail to reorder the cam and have it sent to my house. Well after many many calls with PEGGY AND others it took 1 month for them to get me a check back to reorder the cam. I had a 500 gift code the store gave me when i purchased it. Dont know why but i didnt ask. As no one was helpping me get my money back i call sony store in nj. melio park. Very nice people they help me out and not only got my money back . But gave me 650 off the unit for all my aggervation and time. so the cam was 850. No ******** guys. Hope that clears up the crap. Lol when i get it i will give ya my impression of it.Sony def needs to get there customer service in line it was horrible dealing with oversea outsource people. Thanks to the folks out in new jersery for the help..










Subtotal:

$1,729.98

Promotional Discount:

-$650.00

Tax:

$53.12

Shipping:

INCLUDED

Total:

$1,133.10





Product: HDRTD10

Per Unit Price: $849.99

Quantity: 1

Total Price: $849.99

Description: Full HD 3D Camcorder

Ship Method: Standard

Estimated Ship Date: On backorder. We will notify you by e-mail once your order has shipped.

Extended Service Plan: 4 Year Service Plan with Accidental Damage from Handling [Sony recommends]

Price: $229.99




Subtotal: $1,079.98

Tax:$53.12

Shipping Charges:$0.00


Order Total:$1,133.10






AS you see 845.00 for the cam. I bought the 4 year warranty to.



Ok say your sorry guys .Lol


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## icerat4

its all good guys ill kep ya in da loop as things go on.


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## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20231069
> 
> 
> While these people generally don't deal with consumer products, I will be visiting with Sony Professional and Broadcast in 2 weeks. I'll try to see what I can find out. I didn't preorder but did plan on buying the unit in May. I will also be able to talk to the reps at B&H as they are the world's largest Sony sales retailer. As soon as I find out anything new, I'll post it here. I may order at the NAB show if there are any show discounts being offered.



thanks don.


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## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20227508
> 
> 
> Delayed til nov. some time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like the cams were in production when the quake hit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hope they update the sony style page as it is not.




That makes it sound like the factory itself was somehow damaged in the quake. Does Sony have manufacturing facilities in the proximity of Sendai? I would have thought most production would be in and around larger areas like Osaka, Nagoya or Tokyo. I wonder if the delay to November is in recognition that JVC has come out with a superior product at a similar price point and so the market was not going to be as robust as originally anticipated or alternatively that domestic orders in Japan have been slashed due to uncertainties. I guess it is all speculation at this point, but sorry to learn that we won't be able to get a good hands on comparison between the JVC and the Sony until probably the end of the year at the earliest.


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## geezin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20190418
> 
> 
> Looks like i was right late june for us sony fans . O well





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20198919
> 
> 
> Looks like i was wrong again. I have a shipped dated 3/24 on my account.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20227508
> 
> 
> Delayed til nov. some time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like the cams were in production when the quake hit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hope they update the sony style page as it is not.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20233276
> 
> 
> its all good guys ill kep ya in da loop as things go on.



What loop? Unless you work for Sony and have inside knowledge, you're in no loop.


Could you post the emails you got from Sony claiming the early release to you and the updates?


SonyStyle still shows a 4/15 date and preorder. I can't understand why your order shows backorder. How can something be a backorder when it hasn't been released yet?


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## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geezin* /forum/post/20237279
> 
> 
> What loop? Unless you work for Sony and have inside knowledge, you're in no loop.
> 
> 
> Could you post the emails you got from Sony claiming the early release to you and the updates?
> 
> 
> SonyStyle still shows a 4/15 date and preorder. I can't understand why your order shows backorder. How can something be a backorder when it hasn't been released yet?





Ya know what dude. When i get my cam i get it. Its people like you who make the internet a drama place. Relax the cam is due out for ship as shown 4/15. I told my story and thats it. Drama Queen RElax Its here when its here. Order one get in line and you will have all the info you want. Hows that.


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## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geezin* /forum/post/20237279
> 
> 
> What loop? Unless you work for Sony and have inside knowledge, you're in no loop.
> 
> 
> Could you post the emails you got from Sony claiming the early release to you and the updates?
> 
> 
> SonyStyle still shows a 4/15 date and preorder. I can't understand why your order shows backorder. How can something be a backorder when it hasn't been released yet?




The loop is ment here. I am in the AV FORUM LOOP LOL.


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## geezin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20237383
> 
> 
> Ya know what dude. When i get my cam i get it. Its people like you who make the internet a drama place. Relax the cam is due out for ship as shown 4/15. I told my story and thats it. Drama Queen RElax Its here when its here. Order one get in line and you will have all the info you want. Hows that.



No, it's *you* that made this thread a *drama* place. Go back and take a look at your posts, as illiterate as they are.


Hows that.


I can't wait to see your review, if and when you get it.


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## geezin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20237392
> 
> 
> The loop is ment here. I am in the AV FORUM LOOP LOL.



illiterate... look it up


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## Maxchance

OK, here is an update from a business associate in NY who buys and reps. Sony products for online camera stores.


There is NO news. Distributors, sales reps, dealers, etc. have been told nothing, other than there is a run on camcorder batteries and some specific Sony items). (See below).


Corporate Sony has not said or otherwise posted anything about delays, delivery dates, etc. He is doubtful that even the management at Sony Style has any word. Sony is a massive company that makes a lot of products, not only 3D cameras! The corporate wheels are obviously turning very slowly right now. From reading various news reports (sample listed below), it appears some "camcorder" factories were closed until the end of the month, in addition to battery manufacturing facilities.


One can assume there will be a delay, but again, w/o any official word it's foolish to make a guess. However, being a businessman myself, I would think Sony might make a special effort to launch a new product on time to avoid others from taking over the market.



From Bloomberg:


"Japan's largest exporter of consumer electronics, halted factories that make televisions and cameras, citing difficulties procuring components and materials following the March 11 earthquake.


The company suspended operations at five plants in central and southern Japan, including in the Aichi and Oita prefectures, starting today until the end of this month, the Tokyo-based electronics maker said in a statement. The factories make liquid-crystal display TVs, camcorders, cameras, mobile phones, headphones and broadcasting equipment, it said.


The move increases the number of Sony's plant closures to 12 after the company halted operations at factories that make products ranging from Blu-ray discs to semiconductor lasers since the March 11 earthquake and tsunami that hit Japan. The electronics maker said it may shift some production overseas if shortages of parts and materials persist."


End quote###


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## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geezin* /forum/post/20237505
> 
> 
> no, it's *you* that made this thread a *drama* place. Go back and take a look at your posts, as illiterate as they are.
> 
> 
> Hows that.
> 
> 
> I can't wait to see your review, if and when you get it.







. Go buy one and review it yourself jerk.hows that for illiterate.


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## icerat4

 http://shine.yahoo.com/event/moments...ation-2469953/


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## icerat4

another e mail today.



Thank you for your recent Sony purchase.


We would like to inform you we are experiencing a delay with your Sony order. The following item HDRTD10 has been rescheduled to ship on 04/15/2011.


Tracking information will be sent via email once your order ships. This number will also be available within the order history in your Sony Account. If you are unable to continue waiting we encourage you to visit our website or call 1-877-865-7669 to work with a Sony sales representative to find an alternative product that will meet your needs.


We appreciate your understanding and thank you for choosing Sony!


Sincerely,


Sony Customer Care

SonyStyle.com


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## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20240554
> 
> 
> another e mail today.



Thank you for this


I think I still wait for sony, no more than half a month left, and this product worthes it.


and I don't think there was any illiterate in your posts, I appreciate your up-to-date sharing very much


and if your Sony comes earlier, please post some comment asap, thanks ahead


----------



## Maxchance

NEWS FLASH.... Some customers have received this camera!!! I found several discussions on tech sites (today) from a few who have just received the camera and are seeking assistance with editing the footage.


This of course does not mean everyone who pre-ordered will get it by April 15th. Regardless, very interesting and positive news!


Max


----------



## icerat4

Good news. Thanks


----------



## icerat4

Still has a date of 4/15. anyone here anything yet.


----------



## TonyW79SFV

I'm anxious to get this camcorder. I went to Best Buy, Sony Store, and Fry's Electronics this past weekend and none have it (in the case of BB and Fry's, they don't seem to carry higher end camcorders anymore). Checking the Canadian Sony Style site, their release date is a week after the US.


----------



## TomWheeler

In January of this year I had my local Sony Professional dealer install a Sony VPL-VW90ES 3D capable projector (replacing a Sony VPL-VW100 that he installed over five years ago). After seeing how much I enjoyed 3D Blu-ray discs on the Sony 90ES on my 100 in. wide Stewart Studiomatte 1.3 screen, I had him place an order for the Sony HDR-TD10 3D camcorder in early February. I have queried my dealer for news on when he expects to receive this camcorder and he in turn has queried his Sony rep on the delivery date for the camcorder. Unfortunately, neither my dealer or his Sony rep have been able to determine anything on when the camcorder is expected in the U.S.


Tom


----------



## icerat4

Bummer.


----------



## alk3997

The funny thing (OK, maybe not so funny) was the Amazon sent me one of their targeted ad emails - where they noticed I was looking at Camcorders. Number one on their list they sent was the Sony HDR-TD10. A great deal ($1 off) but the status still shows that the camcorder has not been released. I thought for a second that they had received some, but no...


----------



## smacarth

Happened to find this link to a users manual.

http://www.pdfuu.com/sony-hdr-td10e-...eshooting.html


----------



## icerat4

Well thats interesting







thanks


----------



## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smacarth* /forum/post/20266798
> 
> 
> Happened to find this link to a users manual.
> 
> http://www.pdfuu.com/sony-hdr-td10e-...eshooting.html



I downloaded that pdf, what attracted me the most is a chart at page 26, which showcases optimum distances at different zooming levels, and there is a maximum tele level in there


am I too optimism or any, does that mean sony introduced a better solution to 3D formation than JVC did? for JVC as we can see from another thread, brings little 3D effect at tele stop


----------



## icerat4

Well this is hopefully the week. Anyone hear anything at all.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20283368
> 
> 
> Well this is hopefully the week. Anyone hear anything at all.



Does Frank have one of these headed his way? Seems he has tried out everything available on the market so far so any comparisons between the Sony and JVC could be made here first!


----------



## Don Landis

icedrat4-


I'm at NAB and Sony has the TD10 on demo along with the new pro version.

The rep here said that they are delayed for 2 weeks but not due to the Tsunami damage. He said first priority will be all preorders and top Sony Dealers.


I played with the TD10 again and was still impressed with it's quality on output. Since I had not done so at CES, I decided to make a direct comparison between the Sony and the JVC. Both live output to a 3D monitor looked equally good. However, the on camera monitor on the Sony was much superior. The JVC in 3D mode looked pretty rough. In 2D mode it was like an SD LCD display. The Sony on the other hand looked very good in 3D and in 2D looked super sharp with lots of image detail. Other than that it is just a different control layout. I happen to prefer the Sony. Plus the accessories are better on the Sony.


The Sony Pro model has the following extras-


Pro audio attachment to include a professional shotgun mic and twin XLR jacks with manual volume control.

Lens shade

96 Gb internal storage

Can record in 1080 24P x 1920

time code


Price- $3400.00


AS bigbarney already posted in another thread, Sony Vegas 10d upgrade will have the new codec to edit 3D in the full resolution.


----------



## icerat4

Bummer before easter would have been nice. Glad i am on the pre list,


----------



## TomWheeler

My local Sony dealer who installed my Sony VPL-VW90ES projection system and from whom I have had the Sony HDR-TD10 on order form since late January told me yesterday that he had just gotten feedback from his Sony rep that the Sony warehouses in the U.S. will have the 3D camcorder on May 2. He also told me that there are lots of orders for this camcorder. It would not surprise me that the supply of the camcorder will be limited. I am hopeful to receive the TD10 that I have ordered through him sometime in May.


It is great news to hear that Sony Vegas 10d will be able to edit the MVC 3D format shot by this camcorder.


Tom


----------



## W.Mayer

what do you think as the sony have compare to the jvc almost the same sensor size

how the low light performance was between the sony and the jvc?


the sony pro version can record in 3d 2x 1920x1080 at 60i 50i and 24p.

so at least the 2x 24p version will play at my cinema dlp.


do you know if the sony will offers also the adjustment the jvc have to

fix and manual adjust the axis?


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *W.Mayer* /forum/post/20294800
> 
> 
> what do you think as the sony have compare to the jvc almost the same sensor size
> 
> how the low light performance was between the sony and the jvc?
> 
> 
> the sony pro version can record in 3d 2x 1920x1080 at 60i 50i and 24p.
> 
> so at least the 2x 24p version will play at my cinema dlp.
> 
> 
> do you know if the sony will offers also the adjustment the jvc have to
> 
> fix and manual adjust the axis?






yes no yes yes maybe


----------



## Don Landis

From what i saw the sony has a manual 3D adjustment on the manual knob where the manual focus and iris is also located. There is a pushbutton to toggle through the different settings.


Today i returned to get further details on the pro version of the camcorder. Confirmed that neither the lens shade nor the pro audio handle assembly will work on the consumer version.


sony pro version records in the same formats as the consumer version plus it does 1080 24p. X 1920 in 3D (same as BluRay). vegas 10d will edit in this native format as well and output for BluRay burning. The way i understood the work flow with 10d. Is that you can bring in consumer version of 1080i x 1920 files, edit, and render the output converted to 24p for bluray.


----------



## bravia3D

JVC can't record in 24p can it?


----------



## TonyW79SFV

Quote:

Originally Posted by *bravia3D* 
JVC can't record in 24p can it?
Nope. Looked at their spec and it lists only 60i for MVC (full 3D), and AVCHD (2D and sbs 3D). It's moot anyways as Sony only records 3D in 60i as is the Panasonic cams, although both can do 24p 2D HD.


That's also a bummer that the TD10 is delayed; it seems to be the most anticipated consumer 3D cam. JVC released their full 3D HD camcorder last month without a hitch, let's hope Sony can so the same this upcoming tax day (for the U.S.).


----------



## NorthTV

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
icedrat4-


I'm at NAB and Sony has the TD10 on demo along with the new pro version.

The rep here said that they are delayed for 2 weeks but not due to the Tsunami damage. He said first priority will be all preorders and top Sony Dealers.


I played with the TD10 again and was still impressed with it's quality on output. Since I had not done so at CES, I decided to make a direct comparison between the Sony and the JVC. Both live output to a 3D monitor looked equally good. However, the on camera monitor on the Sony was much superior. The JVC in 3D mode looked pretty rough. In 2D mode it was like an SD LCD display. The Sony on the other hand looked very good in 3D and in 2D looked super sharp with lots of image detail. Other than that it is just a different control layout. I happen to prefer the Sony. Plus the accessories are better on the Sony.


The Sony Pro model has the following extras-


Pro audio attachment to include a professional shotgun mic and twin XLR jacks with manual volume control.

Lens shade

96 Gb internal storage

Can record in 1080 24P x 1920

time code


Price- $3400.00


AS bigbarney already posted in another thread, Sony Vegas 10d upgrade will have the new codec to edit 3D in the full resolution.
Were you able to play with the two models sufficiently to determine how they comparatively perform in low light situations? My guess based on the specs is that it would be hard for the Sony to capture as clean a picture as the JVC with its 1.2 lens would be capable of doing. I suspect for many having a better resulting recording in low light situations is a lot more important than how crisp the viewing screen is on the camera itself. Assuming the Sony consumer version is deficient in this area, is there any suggestion that the Sony pro version at least equals the JVC's low light without noise 3D recording performance???


----------



## bravia3D

Well since I bought the JVC, I hope my JVC is better







Just so I feel good about my purchase haha


----------



## W.Mayer

one difference between the jvc and the sony is that the sony

start at 34.4mm focal length the jvc offers only 42mm (all compare to 35mm film)


so the sony can record a wider picture.


i dont think that there will be a huge difference that the jvc have a optic that

can capture more light as in 3d we need higher f ratio as one of the golden rules in

3d are that all record material have to be sharp from front to infinity.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20297230
> 
> 
> Were you able to play with the two models sufficiently to determine how they comparatively perform in low light situations? My guess based on the specs is that it would be hard for the Sony to capture as clean a picture as the JVC with its 1.2 lens would be capable of doing. I suspect for many having a better resulting recording in low light situations is a lot more important than how crisp the viewing screen is on the camera itself. Assuming the Sony consumer version is deficient in this area, is there any suggestion that the Sony pro version at least equals the JVC's low light without noise 3D recording performance???



I actually think too many amateur shooters make too big a deal over such subtle differences. As a professional shooter for broadcast TV, I feel if one shoots in too low a light condition he is either doing Detective work or wasting his time. Given the choice of a tool to shoot stunning images, such as a monitor that allows for perfect focus adjustment as opposed to not being able to see what you are shooting due to a coarse monitor and the use of a 1.2 lens vs a slightly slower lens, I'll choose the better, higher resolution monitor any day of the week. You will not be able to see the difference between these two lenses, trust me. Now what you will want in a better lens is a wider angle, especially important for 3D as most of your shooting will be in the widest angle possible. This is where you need to be setting your goals. Besides, you made an assumption that the signal to noise is deficient in the Sony. Is it really? As far as the pro version, The NX, I already listed the basic differences. The main one is the ability to shoot in 24P. Do you really need that?


Here's the bottom line on choosing a camcorder for 3D- Understand that within a category, all these companies will make a high quality product. The main difference will be in the ergonomics and major features. Second is the ability to have accessory support by both the manufacturer and 3rd party. Beyond that your most rewarding return on your investment is to concentrate on shooting skills and story telling.


So, if you are in the field and you try to grab a shot in 3D in low light level- How do you make your 3D adjustments if the image on the monitor is fuzzy and you can't detect what the heck you are adjusting? Answer- put everything in auto and hope for the best. Or, you have a sharp high res monitor and can set the camera for the best image under those conditions. Now you record your scene and have confidence what you shot will work, or you know that shooting will just not give you any results.



For those who want to believe what they bought is better than the competition. I say stop worrying about excuses and start shooting. The more you shoot the better you will be. You will learn to work around your camera's shortcomings. All cameras have them. When I played with the JVC and had trouble with the monitor seeing the 3D effect and focus adjustments, I finally pointed the camera at a very well lighted subject and the 3D began to show up and then I was able to adjust it for eliminating the double image in the shot.


I'm not saying the Sony is the better camcorder for you. Just that for me it fits in my tool kit better because of support structure. I rely on my experience and talent to take what the camera delivers, under my control, and sell the result. If you have no tool kit, maybe what you select is best based on availability and cost. But don't be fooled by specs that in the end won't make you an award winning or money making videographer.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *W.Mayer* /forum/post/20297399
> 
> 
> one difference between the jvc and the sony is that the sony
> 
> start at 34.4mm focal length the jvc offers only 42mm (all compare to 35mm film)
> 
> 
> so the sony can record a wider picture.
> 
> 
> i dont think that there will be a huge difference that the jvc have a optic that
> 
> can capture more light as in 3d we need higher f ratio as one of the golden rules in
> 
> 3d are that all record material have to be sharp from front to infinity.



Hey, thanks for the info. I actually didn't bother to look it up as I worked with the cameras and made the observation about wide angle capability. On my other cameras I can add wide angle lenses as needed but that option is not available on 3D camcorders so this was a key issue to me.


Technically speaking when you go faster lens, as in F1.2 and maintain the same diameter glass, you lose maximum wide angle. I saw the JVC did not go as wide as the Sony but didn't know the focal length. When it comes to Glass, you can't fight the laws of physics, but with image noise, you can easily make up for a faster lens with better S/N in the electronics.


Interestingly, the bigger format cameras shooting in 3D use larger imagers and need bigger glass too. For 3D the separation of the center axis of the lens also affects how close you can shoot 3D. The closer the lenses the the closer you can shoot. Big cameras that have large lenses need to use a special overhead second camera to squeeze the lenses closer together than the diameter of the glass will permit. This is what RED does in their 3D rig using a one way glass. The need to separate the lenses for better stereo effect is a myth and is laughed at by the engineers who design these 3D systems.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20298991
> 
> 
> The need to separate the lenses for better stereo effect is a myth and is laughed at by the engineers who design these 3D systems.



That's absurd. The one inch IA of the Sony makes it worthless to me for everything except close in work indoors.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20299952
> 
> 
> That's absurd. The one inch IA of the Sony makes it worthless to me for everything except close in work indoors.





Dont take this the wrong way Frank. But i know none of these consumer cams are for you. Your in a different leauge all together. Not thats a bad thing. But you judging these cams is unfair in a sence. I am sure there ok for the avaerage idiot like me who just shoots now and then AND never edits anything. Ya get where i am going right. They dont have what you would have built them with . But i am sure they work ok. For us rookie idiots







. Peace frank.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's absurd. The one inch IA of the Sony makes it worthless to me for everything except close in work indoors.



Frank, it might be time you got to know some of these engineers who build the 3D systems for the major motion picture industry. it's just possible you could learn something that could help you in making your custom 3D system. there must be many a need for the dual camera setups in the industry because i saw quite a few companies offering rails to mount cameras for 3D.


I had not seen the overhead mounting before and had to learn why they needed that. Why not just a simpler mount side by side. The answer was to decrease minimum shooting distance. Farther apart the cameras are, the greater the minimum shooting distance. In the RED system they had the center to center distance at just over an inch and a half. If shooting 30 ft away then it doesn't matter much and they could get away with side by side.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20298888
> 
> 
> I actually think too many amateur shooters make too big a deal over such subtle differences. As a professional shooter for broadcast TV, I feel if one shoots in too low a light condition he is either doing Detective work or wasting his time. Given the choice of a tool to shoot stunning images, such as a monitor that allows for perfect focus adjustment as opposed to not being able to see what you are shooting due to a coarse monitor and the use of a 1.2 lens vs a slightly slower lens, I'll choose the better, higher resolution monitor any day of the week. You will not be able to see the difference between these two lenses, trust me. Now what you will want in a better lens is a wider angle, especially important for 3D as most of your shooting will be in the widest angle possible. This is where you need to be setting your goals. Besides, you made an assumption that the signal to noise is deficient in the Sony. Is it really? As far as the pro version, The NX, I already listed the basic differences. The main one is the ability to shoot in 24P. Do you really need that?
> 
> 
> Here's the bottom line on choosing a camcorder for 3D- Understand that within a category, all these companies will make a high quality product. The main difference will be in the ergonomics and major features. Second is the ability to have accessory support by both the manufacturer and 3rd party. Beyond that your most rewarding return on your investment is to concentrate on shooting skills and story telling.
> 
> 
> So, if you are in the field and you try to grab a shot in 3D in low light level- How do you make your 3D adjustments if the image on the monitor is fuzzy and you can't detect what the heck you are adjusting? Answer- put everything in auto and hope for the best. Or, you have a sharp high res monitor and can set the camera for the best image under those conditions. Now you record your scene and have confidence what you shot will work, or you know that shooting will just not give you any results.
> 
> 
> 
> For those who want to believe what they bought is better than the competition. I say stop worrying about excuses and start shooting. The more you shoot the better you will be. You will learn to work around your camera's shortcomings. All cameras have them. When I played with the JVC and had trouble with the monitor seeing the 3D effect and focus adjustments, I finally pointed the camera at a very well lighted subject and the 3D began to show up and then I was able to adjust it for eliminating the double image in the shot.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying the Sony is the better camcorder for you. Just that for me it fits in my tool kit better because of support structure. I rely on my experience and talent to take what the camera delivers, under my control, and sell the result. If you have no tool kit, maybe what you select is best based on availability and cost. But don't be fooled by specs that in the end won't make you an award winning or money making videographer.



Thanks for taking the effort to add additional comparisons. Sounds like no one has really done a side-by-side comparison yet of the JVC vs. the Sony in varying light conditions. I have had camcorders in the past that produce beautiful video taken outside but when you use them indoors the result is most disappointing. The whole idea of a camcorder is so you don't have to lug around lighting equipment. I know the 3D video taken with the Fujipix W1 and W3 is best relegated to well lit situations. Hopefully both the Sony and the JVC can improve on that.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for taking the effort to add additional comparisons. Sounds like no one has really done a side-by-side comparison yet of the JVC vs. the Sony in varying light conditions. I have had camcorders in the past that produce beautiful video taken outside but when you use them indoors the result is most disappointing. The whole idea of a camcorder is so you don't have to lug around lighting equipment. I know the 3D video taken with the Fujipix W1 and W3 is best relegated to well lit situations. Hopefully both the Sony and the JVC can improve on that.



Agreed! What i have seen over the years is a gradual improvement of low light shooting quality. When the CMOS chip sets replaced the CCD there was a dramatic improvement in low light performance. But today comparing one CMOS to another the differences are very subtle. Both JVC and Sony appear to have equal performance for a given low light. Please understand that I find tiny differences unimportant as other differences between the two have greater influence over "getting the shot".


In my travels yesterrday I did some test shooting (with my SR12) and come to the conclusion that the distances I want to shoot, I may need a mattebox but just unsure how filtering will affect the 3D outcome. When I get home, I plan to do some careful studying of the Grand Canyon 3D I have. So, like Frank, I'll be on a quest for something special, the good news for me is that I know the small Matteboxes exist.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Dont take this the wrong way Frank. But i know none of these consumer cams are for you. Your in a different leauge all together. Not thats a bad thing. But you judging these cams is unfair in a sence. I am sure there ok for the avaerage idiot like me who just shoots now and then AND never edits anything. Ya get where i am going right. They dont have what you would have built them with . But i am sure they work ok. For us rookie idiots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Peace frank.



From what I learned in today's sessions the distances that Frank wants to work in could be better achieved using the slightly larger format designs with a 3" IA. both the Sony and the JVC consumer camcorders are designed to shoot between a couple ft and upto 50 feet. Beyond 50' the 3D effects are just too flat to get a value from them. Using wider interaxial distance like 2.5 to 3" the shooting range extends out to 500 ft but the minimum distance also increases as does the physical dimensions of the equipment. Frank, based on your shooting ranges you might better be served by one of the 3D sports shooting camcorders, or just stick with your two camera setup and work the auto alignment tweak in Vegas 10.0d. It is to be released on April 20th.


----------



## dwhite601

Being precise is a worthy goal, but, to my surprise, I discovered that I can get good results with relatively imprecise 3D camera placement.


Before I had a modern 3D camera, I used to just take a couple of photos with my regular camera by dragging the tripod a small distance to the left or right about 7.5cm (3"). The results still looked OK even with small differences with tilt and alignment.


I think this is because our brains also get less than perfect images from our two eyes, but figures things out any way.


I also prefer accuracy, but, based on what I've seen with my experiments, we don't have to worry too much about the lens separation. Our brains already know what we are looking at in a scene and make the appropriate mental adjustments.


From what I learned at the Sony NAB exhibit Tuesday, it's more important to avoid too much difference between left and right views from the foreground to the background. In other words, if you are converged on a close object and the background images are far apart (viewed without glasses), it is difficult to view the image in 3D. Either collapse the distance between the lenses (if possible) or backup from the foreground object.


----------



## bigbarney

Quote:

Originally Posted by *dwhite601* 
From what I learned at the Sony NAB exhibit Tuesday, it's more important to avoid too much difference between left and right views from the foreground to the background. In other words, if you are converged on a close object and the background images are far apart (viewed without glasses), it is difficult to view the image in 3D. Either collapse the distance between the lenses (if possible) or backup from the foreground object.
That's a point that is not emphasized enough at all! If the distance between the 2 lenses is too far apart then the images begin to look distinctly different... instead of the SAME thing at a slightly different angle... and there is a big difference between the two scenarios.


----------



## Don Landis

Based on several days of comparing the JVC and the Sony, I decided to jump on board and preordered the HDR TD10 today. Although the output quality of both camcorders seemed close for either to satisfy, I felt the quality of the equipment was much better on the Sony, especially the touch screen monitor. Additionally, most of my accessories will work on the Sony and won't on the JVC. I don't care about 24P or having XLR audio since I already have an XLR adapter and BT wireless mics plus a Sony Hot shoe shotgun mic. Also the Sony will work with a 3" dia mattebox mount for some special needs. It has a round base while the JVC is an odd shaped base that doesn't lend itself to universal filter systems.


If anyone is still deciding on either of these two competing camcorders, I'd suggest you get a good demo to compare the two.


----------



## icerat4

Well its on back order now. Looks like it was a short list to begin with. Bummer


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well its on back order now. Looks like it was a short list to begin with. Bummer



Last word I got was in 2 weeks. Said they were in the states but didn't know why the delay. I ordered from Amazon for reason they offer better price stability and don't bill until shipped.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20308563
> 
> 
> Last word I got was in 2 weeks. Said they were in the states but didn't know why the delay. I ordered from Amazon for reason they offer better price stability and don't bill until shipped.



Mine was ordered march 23. sony style store. i guess just keep checkin. I am so excited to get this.


----------



## W.Mayer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20308563
> 
> 
> Last word I got was in 2 weeks. Said they were in the states but didn't know why the delay. I ordered from Amazon for reason they offer better price stability and don't bill until shipped.



i have order the sony consumer version US with 60i







(germany version with

50i flickers to much!) today from b&h as i hear the the prof. version will be hit germany not before august.


b&h confirm to have it the first may week so in 3 weeks.


----------



## icerat4

B N H Has the temp out of stock posted. I bet they never had them in stock. What kind of crap is this play on words. what did they make 10 of these cams LOL.


----------



## Don Landis

B&H never had any, ice. That statement is always listed on stuff that is announced and not received yet. Normally I would order from B&H but they will be closed until near the end of the month and won't even be receiving anything. B&H is an orthodox Jewish owned company and they honor their religious holidays ( Passover) strictly. I think they will reopen on the 28th. Nothing will change until after that date. Their sales rep at NAB told me they would not be able to receive until likely the first week in May.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20317148
> 
> 
> B&H never had any, ice. That statement is always listed on stuff that is announced and not received yet. Normally I would order from B&H but they will be closed until near the end of the month and won't even be receiving anything. B&H is an orthodox Jewish owned company and they honor their religious holidays ( Passover) strictly. I think they will reopen on the 28th. Nothing will change until after that date. Their sales rep at NAB told me they would not be able to receive until likely the first week in May.







ok thanks just anties . boy this is a tuff wait..


----------



## Don Landis

ice- I have three projects to keep me busy waiting for the TD10.


1. Finish reading Benard Mendiburu's 3D Movie Making book.

2. Finish editing my recent trip to Death Valley

3. Install and learn the new 3D stuff in Vegas 10.0d.


By the time I get all that done, I'll be ready for the new 3D camcorder.


I feel real good now about not going for the JVC now that I had lots of time demoing both. I think you'll be pleased with having waited for the Sony.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20325804
> 
> 
> ice- I have three projects to keep me busy waiting for the TD10.
> 
> 
> 1. Finish reading Benard Mendiburu's 3D Movie Making book.
> 
> 2. Finish editing my recent trip to Death Valley
> 
> 3. Install and learn the new 3D stuff in Vegas 10.0d.
> 
> 
> By the time I get all that done, I'll be ready for the new 3D camcorder.
> 
> 
> I feel real good now about not going for the JVC now that I had lots of time demoing both. I think you'll be pleased with having waited for the Sony.






Thanks don i am doing these things.


1.checking email and sony style store every hour. Lol

2. drinking beer.

3.drinking more beer .lol



I dont edit stuff as i find those programs way way too tuff for me.To much stuff going on. So i will drink beer check emails and point shoot and watch.


----------



## Don Landis

At least with Amazon, I'll get an e-mail when they ship. Don't need to keep checking as I have you and the Amazon e-mails. Thanks!


----------



## NorthTV

Quote:

Originally Posted by *icerat4* 
Thanks don i am doing these things.


1.checking email and sony style store every hour. Lol

2. drinking beer.

3.drinking more beer .lol



I dont edit stuff as i find those programs way way too tuff for me.To much stuff going on. So i will drink beer check emails and point shoot and watch.
Am I assuming correctly that the beer strategy also obviates any complaints from your beer supplied captive audiences with regard to their watching your unedited content?


----------



## icerat4

Quote:

Originally Posted by *NorthTV* 
Am I assuming correctly that the beer strategy also obviates any complaints from your beer supplied captive audiences with regard to their watching your unedited content?


Yea what he said. Blahhh







No NEW News yet. Don just a bunch of spam mail. Lol







so far. You guys here will be the absolute first to know.







unedited vids to follow ekkkks


----------



## TonyW79SFV

Looks like the Sony MHS-FS3 3D Bloggie is facing the same fate as the HDR-TD10 3D Handycam - backordered. The 3D Bloggie was set to be released the 20th of April. I'm hoping the TD10 is available before Memorial Day, there's already a few events I was anxious to capture in 3D HD; I feel that I won't get it in time for National Train Day.


----------



## TonyW79SFV

 Sony Delays Launch of 3D Camcorder Due to Parts Shortage (via PCWorld)


By Martyn Williams, IDG News Apr 20, 2011 11:40 pm


Sony is delaying the launch of its 3D Handycam video camera by roughly a month due to difficulty securing parts following the March 11 earthquake in Japan.


The magnitude 9.0 earthquake and subsequent tsunami halted factories and disrupted the distribution networks and supply chains on which Japanese electronics makers rely. For Sony, the knock-on effect of this disruption has been a shortage of at least one component for the new camcorders.


A Sony spokesman wouldn't elaborate on the component or components in question.


The camcorder was previously due to launch this month, but will now be available in Japan from May 13. Revised launch dates for other markets were not immediately available from the company's headquarters in Tokyo.


The HDR-TD10 Handycam was first unveiled at January's International Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas and is distinctive for its dual lenses. Behind the lenses are dual image sensors and processors, which add to the complexity and bulk of the camcorder but, according to Sony, result in a superior picture compared to single-lens 3D camcorders.


Other features include a screen that shows 3D images without the need for special glasses. ( Video of the camcorder on show at CES is available on YouTube .)


In the U.S., the camcorder will cost around US$1,500.


It's the second Sony group announcement this week of quake-related disruptions to product plans. On Tuesday, Sony Ericsson said it faces difficulty obtaining some parts for high-end cell phones due to the earthquake. As a result, supplies of its flagship Xperia Arc, Xperia Play and Xperia Neo phones will be affected in the current quarter.


Martyn Williams covers Japan and general technology breaking news for The IDG News Service. Follow Martyn on Twitter at @martyn_williams . Martyn's e-mail address is [email protected]


----------



## icerat4

may 15th maybe huh. how long after japan release do we see stuff.


----------



## Don Landis

Interesting!


So it appears the talking point at NAB that the TD10 was all in stock at Sony US warehouses ready to ship and was not affected by the disaster in Japan was all a lie.

Something doesn't add up here.

If Sony knew they would not be able to ship due to the disaster causing supply shortages, why did they fabricate such an outrageous lie, knowing all along that in a few days the lie would be exposed? It is unlike Sony to operate this way. I've seen Sony be arrogant but they never resorted to outrageous lies. So, either the article has fabricated some reasons for the delay or Sony is in much bigger trouble than we were led to believe.


----------



## TonyW79SFV

I'm still going to believe that Sony should be able to deliver on the camcorder early next month. When I tried searching news articles concerning the whereabouts of the TD10, that one article by IDG posted via PCWorld came up. Let's wait to see if there are any more sources of news about this delay. The earthquake happened 11 March 2011 and the camcorder was to go on sale the 15th April 2011; goods gets shipped by sea over the Pacific, which takes about a month, so Sony has to have had some TD10s out of Japan before the earthquake.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20340050
> 
> 
> Interesting!
> 
> 
> So it appears the talking point at NAB that the TD10 was all in stock at Sony US warehouses ready to ship and was not affected by the disaster in Japan was all a lie.
> 
> Something doesn't add up here.
> 
> If Sony knew they would not be able to ship due to the disaster causing supply shortages, why did they fabricate such an outrageous lie, knowing all along that in a few days the lie would be exposed? It is unlike Sony to operate this way. I've seen Sony be arrogant but they never resorted to outrageous lies. So, either the article has fabricated some reasons for the delay or Sony is in much bigger trouble than we were led to believe.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20340050
> 
> 
> Interesting!
> 
> 
> So it appears the talking point at NAB that the TD10 was all in stock at Sony US warehouses ready to ship and was not affected by the disaster in Japan was all a lie.
> 
> Something doesn't add up here.
> 
> If Sony knew they would not be able to ship due to the disaster causing supply shortages, why did they fabricate such an outrageous lie, knowing all along that in a few days the lie would be exposed? It is unlike Sony to operate this way. I've seen Sony be arrogant but they never resorted to outrageous lies. So, either the article has fabricated some reasons for the delay or Sony is in much bigger trouble than we were led to believe.







O i belive sony lied for sure don. You should have seen the emails and ******** and lies i went thru when i originally order this cam back in feb, There overseas outsource support is just horrible.And i think it stems to the top dogs.Great products Nasty support.Yes after all was said and done 1 month later .I got an awesome deal on the cam. Thanks Sony.







NOW IF I EVER GET IT is another story Lol


----------



## Don Landis

Hasn't been my experience with Sony, ever! Like I said they have been arrogant at times with "the truth" but never lied to my face. Of course, please understand that I don't equate a statement made from ignorance a lie. Some employees, do speak inappropriately but usually that is an isolated case. In this case, I was told by several reps on different days the exact same talking point. The same is true for the release of Vegas 10.0d which was to go out on the 20th. But on the 20th an unforeseen event happened that was not considered at NAB which was the entire Sony Stores Intranet was brought down by hackers. This was an admitted act of terrorism targeted at Sony. So, I still give Sony the benefit of the doubt here, otherwise if it is true that Sony fabricated a laundry list of lies at NAB as a company policy, why should we every buy anything from them again?


BTW- I won a free copy of Sony Vegas Pro at NAB. As you can see I have mixed, confused feelings about all this.


I have no intention on buying the JVC after comparing the two and how they operate. While the output is about equal the user ergonomics and operation quality is far superior on the Sony. When this is all behind us, we will be glad we waited for the Sony. Today, the only advantage I see for the JVC is you can buy it. For some this will outweigh all other advantages of the Sony.


----------



## pteittinen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have no intention on buying the JVC after comparing the two and how they operate. While the output is about equal the user ergonomics and operation quality is far superior on the Sony. When this is all behind us, we will be glad we waited for the Sony. Today, the only advantage I see for the JVC is you can buy it. For some this will outweigh all other advantages of the Sony.



The Sony must be great since I've used the JVC for a month now and it's truly a fantastic piece of kit. I wanted to do a comparison with Sony, but Sony Finland said they have not received a single camera, and have currently no idea when to expect a delivery from Japan. They listed the earthquake as the reason for delays and uncertainty.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20340050
> 
> 
> Interesting!
> 
> 
> So it appears the talking point at NAB that the TD10 was all in stock at Sony US warehouses ready to ship and was not affected by the disaster in Japan was all a lie.
> 
> Something doesn't add up here.
> 
> If Sony knew they would not be able to ship due to the disaster causing supply shortages, why did they fabricate such an outrageous lie, knowing all along that in a few days the lie would be exposed? It is unlike Sony to operate this way. I've seen Sony be arrogant but they never resorted to outrageous lies. So, either the article has fabricated some reasons for the delay or Sony is in much bigger trouble than we were led to believe.




Reading between the lines I think something else is really going on here. I believe it is very likely that we do have product here in the U.S. that could go out now, but it is being purposely held by the parent headquarters in Japan because the camcorders destined for their domestic market are in fact being impacted by the part supply problem. I believe Sony in Japan does not want the U.S. to have the camcorders available first for the retail market for various reasons which may include corporate image issues as well as the fact that typically the price is much higher in Japan and there would be a likely influx of re-imported camcorders coming back to Japan incurring a loss in sales and profits for the distributors and retailers in Japan. For what it is worth when I tried to redo my pre-order on Amazon (to take advantage of a recent promo) I was told that the system already showed I had a pre-order and that these units were being limited to one per customer.


----------



## icerat4

To bad we dont have a sony rep come here and give us the low down. Either way just to clear the air. This seems to be a big web page sight. One would figure they would be here to support there products.Hell jvc had chris doing all he could do with the jvc cam. Id like to know how many people here actually have this cam on order already. Anyone know how to do a poll here .


----------



## Maxchance




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20341240
> 
> 
> Reading between the lines I think something else is really going on here. I believe it is very likely that we do have product here in the U.S. that could go out now, but it is being purposely held by the parent headquarters in Japan because the camcorders destined for their domestic market are in fact being impacted by the part supply problem. I believe Sony in Japan does not want the U.S. to have the camcorders available first for the retail market for various reasons which may include corporate image issues as well as the fact that typically the price is much higher in Japan and there would be a likely influx of re-imported camcorders coming back to Japan incurring a loss in sales and profits for the distributors and retailers in Japan. For what it is worth when I tried to redo my pre-order on Amazon (to take advantage of a recent promo) I was told that the system already showed I had a pre-order and that these units were being limited to one per customer.



I think you hit the nail on the head. I know of two people (camera and video equipment resellers in NY) who have received the camera. (2 total). One guy even sent me a copy of the manual. I tried to buy his camera but he refused.


Releasing the camera in one country and not others would be a really bad PR problem, and it would not be the first time a messed up distribution plan delayed a product launch. If it was a matter of "one part," they could have the part(s) flown in and the distribution could start immediately. After the lies from the nuclear facility, who knows, maybe I'll get a 3D X-Ray camera!!


Max


----------



## TonyW79SFV

It would make sense for Japan to receive products originating in their country before North America; this practice was seen in the past with the various Sony Playstation consoles sold in Japan weeks and months before the US, same with Nintendo - except for the Wii, which was released in the US two to three weeks before Japan.


----------



## bravia3D

Not out here in Japan yet, I been checking around.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Maxchance* /forum/post/20342680
> 
> 
> I think you hit the nail on the head. I know of two people (camera and video equipment resellers in NY) who have received the camera. (2 total). One guy even sent me a copy of the manual. I tried to buy his camera but he refused.
> 
> 
> Releasing the camera in one country and not others would be a really bad PR problem, and it would not be the first time a messed up distribution plan delayed a product launch. If it was a matter of "one part," they could have the part(s) flown in and the distribution could start immediately. After the lies from the nuclear facility, who knows, maybe I'll get a 3D X-Ray camera!!
> 
> 
> Max



It is also possible that a bug has been detected and the cameras are being delayed until a software fix is available. I know Pioneer (or at least others in the supply chain) interruped their release of at least one of their AV receivers for 2011 that had already hit retailers just a week or two ago to fix a software bug as my local Best Buy sent back the four AV units they had received. The last thing Sony would want is for their new product to be subject of massive returns and a rumored recall. In Pioneer's case they claim that a simple firmware update will take care of the problem and have had to dispel rumors that their product is subject of a recall.


----------



## Maxchance




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20344537
> 
> 
> It is also possible that a bug has been detected and the cameras are being delayed until a software fix is available. I know Pioneer (or at least others in the supply chain) interruped their release of at least one of their AV receivers for 2011 that had already hit retailers just a week or two ago to fix a software bug as my local Best Buy sent back the four AV units they had received. The last thing Sony would want is for their new product to be subject of massive returns and a rumored recall. In Pioneer's case they claim that a simple firmware update will take care of the problem and have had to dispel rumors that their product is subject of a recall.



That may be it!! I was thinking the very same thing. You could tell after viewing the famous YouTube interview at the show in Vegas that the Sony spokesperson was very coy about editing, saying the camera "should be only for fun." Who the hell tries to sell a $1,500 camera by saying its for "fun only." The guy I spoke to who got a camera a few weeks ago, said he could not edit / transfer the footage using the supplied software and was seeking help in a technical editing forum. That is how I found him. It could be a combination of things, but it's too bad Sony cannot be honest and just tell everyone what the delay is from. I am guessing it will be at least three weeks, maybe four, given two weeks to assemble (or fix), then ship and distribute. But who knows, it might be out next week...lol


W.


----------



## Richard Adams

Reading through the thread on avsforum about the full 3D JVC TD1 that is already shipping, there are issues playing back the full HD 3D files, i.e. MVC files. The Sony TD10 also produces only MVC output in full 3D mode.


The issue is that although a PC can store and archive the MVC full HD 3D files, neither PS3 nor PC based playback gives results as good as using the JVC TD1 to play back the files, when compared to playback of the same files through the HDMI output of the JVC TD1 camcorder.


Files that are converted to half resolution SBS will playback ok via PC. These are AVC, not MVC, and only 960 pixels wide for each eye, not 1920. This half resolution SBS is similar to, or identical to those produced by the 2010 model Panasonic SBS 3D camcorders. Today, for the average user, the extra quality of full field 3D HD is realized only when a TD1 camcorder is used for playback of its MVC files.


There is also a lack of economical software to convert the MVC 3D to individual left and right streams, these streams being desirable for other playback and processing methods. If these streams were available it would increase the flexibility of using the output of MVC 3D camcorders (Sony TD10 / JVC TD1) for a wider range of pro or prosumer uses.


I do not have a 3D camcorder yet. I need to get one in the next 3 weeks.


We've heard about the lack of editing software.


My point here is that perhaps the playback issue is an additional factor holding up shipment of the Sony TD10.


----------



## Don Landis

Hey Richard, How you been? Haven't heard from you since those days you were developing the DVHS 1394 recording adapters. Memories!


The editing software exists and has been tested for the Sony TD10. The release is imminent but much has happened this past week when both were to be released and Sony is not very forth coming on why. Many are guessing and some even claiming they interviewed nameless sources but the reasons given are in direct contradiction to those who have made official statements, making them out as liars which is just unlike Sony.


BTW- the main purpose of the Vegas capability of import of the full resolution MVC file into editing is not for full res playback on the computer but rather to edit this full resolution file structure and then burn the result to blue Ray direct from the timeline within Vegas. This process will not use DVD Architecture and at this time DVD Architecture will still not be capable of authoring a 3D Bluray. Rather it was strongly hinted by one of the developers that BluRay authoring is being presently worked on for DVDA future release. Today, the only way to author a 3D blue Ray is to use Sony BluePrint but you have to have the big bucks to get into this level of application.


Presently, from my hands on playing with both the JVC and Sony, the two have similar high quality output although the JVC live play appeared just a bit noisier in the darker shadows, the JVC has one major advantage, IT is available, the Sony is not. Both are somewhat limited in producing good 3D z axis separation at distance due to the fixed interocular but a third option exists that can be imported to Sony Vegas editing now and that is the GoPro Hero 3D system. When this system is mounted on a bench where the interaxial distance can be increased and convergence aligned, greater 3D distances with good Z axis can be technically achieved. AVS Member Frank- is the local resident expert experimenting now with this. After much demoing both the Sony,JVC and GoPro as well as the professional equivalents from JVC and Sony, I have made the move to the Sony due to it's user quality and support. I am strongly considering getting the GoPro 3D system too if the Sony is much more delayed. I have personal projects in mind that the Sony ( according to my tests ) won't do and the Go Pro will.


----------



## Richard Adams

Hi Don. I recall our early adopter shared enthusiasm for increasing the availability of HD content. In recent years my day job is to bring to fruition a novel patent pending method to generate electicity.


On the 3D topic, interocular adjustment makes a system more versatile. For my own home video use, the non-adjustable interoccular of these Sony and JVC camcorders is suitable.


Sony TD10 has built in surround sound microphones, while JVC TD1 has "still shot" 3D photo ability. Sony comes out of the gate a few hundred cheaper, and looks like a sleaker smaller unit.


Is there a hands on comparison of the built in view finders on the Sony and JVC?


Is there a solution yet for PC or PS3 playback of MVC files?


----------



## bravia3D

The release date now in Japan says 5/13 Before it said April but they have changed it.


----------



## TonyW79SFV

2011年5月13日発売


Yep, this is what it says on Sony Japan's site for the HDR-TD10 .



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bravia3D* /forum/post/20349980
> 
> 
> The release date now in Japan says 5/13 Before it said April but they have changed it.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TonyW79SFV* /forum/post/20350976
> 
> 
> 2011年5月13日発売
> 
> 
> Yep, this is what it says on Sony Japan's site for the HDR-TD10 .




Thanks for posting that link. The links within the link are noteworthy too. I liked the dimensional diagram with notation that for "best" 3D effect the subjects should be from .8m to 6 meters. (.8m -6m ga besuto!) Curious if this is what the JVC shooters have found to be the "sweet spot range" for 3D effect as well?


----------



## Don Landis

Google translate does a pretty good job of it. Thanks for the link.


NorthTV- In my experience with both JVC and Sony the 3D zaxis separation could be achieved at distances out to easily 35 ft. but objects in the scene out to 50 ft were difficult to see Z axis separation. Out to 100 ft the objects all looked pretty flat. When I shot with an object in the foreground and action out to 50 ft. The 3D effect became uncomfortable. I feel that discussion of capability is OK but in movie making practice, one needs to be careful in shooting design for 3D because the more you stick foreground objects in a scene with your action subject at distance, the harder your viewers will have to work and this becomes tiresome to the eyes.


Richard- The Sony ( IMO) has a much higher quality 3D monitor on the camcorder than the JVC. This allows for better detail and a faster visual of the 3D z axis evaluation during shooting. In addition the 5.1 audio has a very nice 5.1 audio VU metering on screen to see what the scene is recording. The JVC doesn't. If you need a good wireless mic the Sony system has a Blue Tooth mic that makes use of dual channel for IFB where your on camera talent can hear the shooters instructions if he plugs in an ear bud to the microphone. This is really cool. I have one of these mics for my other Sony camcorder ( HDR SR12). When using the BT mic attachment your 5.1 sound will place the on camera talent in the center channel, while still maintaining the other 4.1 channels recorded from the camcorder's mics. When you pull the video clip into Vegas 10 for editing the audio is automatically set up for DD5.1 and then you can add music or sound effects in post to any of the channels.

3D still photos- True that the Sony lacks still photos in 3D, however it is very easy to port a short video into Vegas and place the curser over the timeline, scrub it back and forth to find the perfect shot, and click on save to disk a screen capture in full camcorder resolution. You do have still 2D image shooting, however.

Is there a solution yet for PC or PS3 playback of MVC files? This should work with Vegas 10d upgrade. You will need specific 3D video card hardware on your PC and a 3D monitor. Not sure about PS3 streaming but definitely for Blueray disk burn and bluRay player.




I see the US Sony web page has been updated too with a new feature that previously was only available in the professional version. 1080 24P x 1920. I was surprised to see this and maybe this is the reason for the delay. Maybe Sony's feedback told them this mode was highly requested and at NAB they said the pro version had it. Guess they decided to upgrade the firmware for this feature before release.



> Quote:
> Video Resolution : 3D HD: 2x 1920x1080/60i; HD: 1920x1080/60p,*24p*,60i (FX, FH), 1440x1080/60i (HQ, LP); STD: 720x480/60i


----------



## NorthTV

I'm guessing that the stills captured in post production are equal or better than the stills that the JVC takes? Now if the Sony would only add time lapse 3D like the JVC has.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20351659
> 
> 
> I'm guessing that the stills captured in post production are equal or better than the stills that the JVC takes? Now if the Sony would only add time lapse 3D like the JVC has.



Actually Sony Vegas can do time lapse. But when you can do it in the camera the file is much smaller.







Only advantage I ever saw with frame grabbing in post is you get to choose the perfect shot from 30 per second.


----------



## icerat4

I just got this email







Thank you for your recent Sony purchase.


We would like to inform you we are experiencing a delay with your Sony order. The following item HDRTD10 has been rescheduled to ship on 05/06/2011.


Tracking information will be sent via email once your order ships. This number will also be available within the order history in your Sony Account. If you are unable to continue waiting we encourage you to visit our website or call 1-877-865-7669 to work with a Sony sales representative to find an alternative product that will meet your needs.


We appreciate your understanding and thank you for choosing Sony!


Sincerely,


Sony Customer Care



















































































Hope its not another lie i tell ya


----------



## Don Landis

Just saw Sony updated their web page for the TD10 and it now states new ship date as April 27, 2011 which is today!











> Quote:
> $1499.99
> 
> 
> Cash in on Sony Financing.
> 
> Explore your payment options >
> 
> 
> In Stock
> 
> 
> Estimated ship date: 04/27/2011



Guess the anxious wait will soon be over.


----------



## kostasgr

Review of the sony HDR-TD10:
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/s...27_442503.html


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kostasgr* /forum/post/20363149
> 
> 
> Review of the sony HDR-TD10:
> http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/s...27_442503.html






how do i translate that sight. Never mind sorry igoogles it does it .


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20362996
> 
> 
> Just saw Sony updated their web page for the TD10 and it now states new ship date as April 27, 2011 which is today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guess the anxious wait will soon be over.





Yes sir mine say shipping 4/28 hope this is true.


----------



## Don Landis

Add Google translate to your toolbar. Little rough but you can get the meaning and that review has some interesting video clips.


Also saw on the US Sony site that they changed the spec again on 24P. Now they say that format is only available for 2D. Not overly concerned but it would be nice to get some consistency on this stuff.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20363430
> 
> 
> Add Google translate to your toolbar. Little rough but you can get the meaning and that review has some interesting video clips.



I just downloaded their highest quality clip on the website and am underwhelmed to say the least.










It was 00040.MTS @28Mbps


----------



## geezin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20363430
> 
> 
> 
> Also saw on the US Sony site that they changed the spec again on 24P. Now they say that format is only available for 2D. Not overly concerned but it would be nice to get some consistency on this stuff.



Don, your post on 4/25 (#127) says that 24P is HD only.


Video Resolution : 3D HD: 2x 1920x1080/60i; HD: 1920x1080/60p,24p,60i (FX, FH), 1440x1080/60i (HQ, LP); STD: 720x480/60i


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20363646
> 
> 
> I just downloaded their highest quality clip on the website and am underwhelmed to say the least.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was 00040.MTS @28Mbps




Yea but you have bad eye sight







. So your opinion dosent count Lol


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20362996
> 
> 
> Just saw Sony updated their web page for the TD10 and it now states new ship date as April 27, 2011 which is today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guess the anxious wait will soon be over.




Don't see any projected shipping dates from Amazon though yet. Anyone else getting a projected date from them? I'm curious if there is adequate current supply to meet all the preorders for both Sonystyle and Amazon as well as the others who have been taking preorders.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20364106
> 
> 
> Don't see any projected shipping dates from Amazon though yet. Anyone else getting a projected date from them? I'm curious if there is adequate current supply to meet all the preorders for both Sonystyle and Amazon as well as the others who have been taking preorders.



yes i do have a ship date of 4/27 this is whats on my sony style store info.





Items:

1

Order Status:

READY FOR SHIPMENT

Estimated Ship Date:

04/27/2011


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20363646
> 
> 
> I just downloaded their highest quality clip on the website and am underwhelmed to say the least.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was 00040.MTS @28Mbps




I'm not surprised. You've been underwhelmed with the GoProHD( had to put a different lens), the JVC ( said one camera wasn't working right maybe QC issues) so why not the Sony? You have unrealistic expectations. Either you need a better monitor or much bigger camera budget or both. I feel bad for you being so unhappy.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20364175
> 
> 
> I'm not surprised. You've been underwhelmed with the GoProHD( had to put a different lens), the JVC ( said one camera wasn't working right maybe QC issues) so why not the Sony? You have unrealistic expectations. Either you need a better monitor or much bigger camera budget or both. I feel bad for you being so unhappy.






Better glasses Don .That will fix franks issues








So he can see the damn videos lol


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20364175
> 
> 
> I'm not surprised. You've been underwhelmed with the GoProHD( had to put a different lens), the JVC ( said one camera wasn't working right maybe QC issues) so why not the Sony? You have unrealistic expectations. Either you need a better monitor or much bigger camera budget or both. I feel bad for you being so unhappy.



You definitely have me wrong. I love the GoPro now. I wasn't the one who complained about the JVC not working right. That was first noticed by others.

I have an unlimited camera budget by the way.


What in the world makes you think I'm unhappy?

I couldn't be happier!
















What did you think of the Sony demo video 00040.MTS ?


----------



## Don Landis

What did you think of the Sony demo video 00040.MTS ?


Sucked! as far as subject matter. It was a sun back lit scene with trees, lens flare and iris back reflection. He couldn't have done a better job of displaying the camera's defects if he tried harder.


Check out the 00004.mts. That is an excellent demo of the zoom range and color definition. The file is shot in 3D mode but the mts is just one of the dual files so it is seen in 2D. Did he upload any 3D output?


BTW- his review is the first good one that shows the lcd screen and all the controls. I love the 5.1 vu meter on this thing.


Frank- if you have an unlimited camera budget, why are you fooling around with these toys?


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20364427
> 
> 
> 
> Frank- if you have an unlimited camera budget, why are you fooling around with these toys?



Because I'm a child at heart and I love doing things no one else is doing.


----------



## geezin

Just checked SonyStyle, it shows backorder, again.


In the meantime, they do have the marketing specs here (pdf):

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/mod...pl?mdl=HDRTD10


----------



## icerat4

I got a fed ex tracking number . Mine will be at my house tomorrow. Holy crap i cant believe it. 4/28 delivery dated omg


----------



## Don Landis

Guess they shipped all to all the stores in the country today. Now to find a store that really has one in stock.


icerat4 may be the only one here to get one. I didn't get an e-mail from Amazon. Maybe I will by Friday.


__________________________________

Today, nowhere does it say 24P in 3D mode.

Maybe someone is monitoring this thread from Sony and making adjustments they see we are misunderstanding the specifications they wrote.










Now, I want to go check out any info on the pro version that was stated as 24P 3D being one of the features it had that the consumer didn't.





> Quote:
> Video Resolution (Movie Quality)
> *3D HD: 2x 1920x1080/60i*
> 
> HD: 1920x1080/60p, 24p, 60i (FX,FH), 1440x1080/60i (HQ,LP)
> 
> STD: 720x480/60i
> 
> Video Signal System
> *3D HD: HDTV 1080/60i,*
> 
> HD: HDTV 1080/60p, 24p, 60i,
> 
> STD: NTSC color, EIA standards
> 
> Video Format(s) Supported
> *3D HD: MVC (original format), HD: MPEG4-AVC/H.264 AVCHD
> 
> format compatible (1080/60p: original format), STD: MPEG2-PS*


----------



## icerat4

Yup very strange it came out of la grange il a southren suburb of me. 1 day shipping. holy crap i get mine tomorrow. I am so excited with all my sony stuff ready to use this cam. And my new sony vaio soildstate drive computer will handle all this cam has to offer. yeaaaaaa me



































Will post pics as soon as i get home tomorrow afternoon to show it off. then i will have to figure out how to use it LOL



















Hello, thomas


Something fun is on its way. To track your order, go to My Account and select Order Information.


Order Number:


Your order contains the following item(s):




Product: HDRTD10

Quantity: 1

Description: Full HD 3D Camcorder

Date shipped: 04/27/2011

Ship Mode: Standard

Shipper: Fedex


----------



## icerat4

Its on the fed ex truck out for delivery


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smacarth* /forum/post/20266798
> 
> 
> Happened to find this link to a users manual.
> 
> http://www.pdfuu.com/sony-hdr-td10e-...eshooting.html






Page 30 shows the adjustments i think don and frank are talking about.


----------



## Maxchance

You Lucky %$#$^&*!


They "back ordered" my pre-order this morning. I called and they said they ran out of cameras and had no new shipment date. I canceled the sale. Figure some of the Sony Stores will get a shipment today. I'm sure some pre-order guy will be selling his on the bay for over 2k, although I'm not that desperate.


Good luck everyone!


Oh well..... wait wait wait wait......


M.


----------



## icerat4

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Maxchance* 
You Lucky %$#$^&*!


They "back ordered" my pre-order this morning. I called and they said they ran out of cameras and had no new shipment date. I canceled the sale. Figure some of the Sony Stores will get a shipment today. I'm sure some pre-order guy will be selling his on the bay for over 2k, although I'm not that desperate.


Good luck everyone!


Oh well..... wait wait wait wait......


M.




I know i will not be selling mine period. My wife just called and the cam is at the house it just got there. So i will be home at 4 and have up a vid of the unboxing and if i can firgure out how to use it i will share what i see.


----------



## Maxchance

Glad for you!


It's hard to imagine Sony only received enough cameras to fill a few Sony Style orders. I don't know of anyone else who ordered from the Sony site and has received a shipment notice. They must have had a lot of pre-orders on their site. Amazon says they have not even been notified of an "arrival" date and they usually get about a weeks notice. I called the Sony stores in New York, Dallas and Seattle (to cover all regions) and they also say there is no ship date. I suspect a lucky few are receiving the shipment that went out before the earthquake and now the real back order wait begins.


M.


----------



## Maxchance

UPDATE....


Just got off the phone with Sony Style and spoke with a customer service manager. The ONLY orders that will be shipped in the near future are those placed on the Sony Style site. NO orders will be shipped to stores, vendors, anyone, until all back orders placed on the Sony site are filled. She did not know when more cameras would arrive, since things like customs, processing delays, etc., can alter dates. There were apparently a "load" of orders. So there you go!


----------



## icerat4

Here Ya Go.








http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Inj-skz8_s


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Maxchance* /forum/post/20369329
> 
> 
> UPDATE....
> 
> 
> Just got off the phone with Sony Style and spoke with a customer service manager. The ONLY orders that will be shipped in the near future are those placed on the Sony Style site. NO orders will be shipped to stores, vendors, anyone, until all back orders placed on the Sony site are filled. She did not know when more cameras would arrive, since things like customs, processing delays, etc., can alter dates. There were apparently a "load" of orders. So there you go!



I wouldn't put too much credence into what a Sony Style customer service person reports as to getting the camera from other sources. I ordered one of the new Sony 2011 3D TVs from another source and even after I got it Sony Style was still showing it as not yet in stock and then backordered.


----------



## icerat4

Got mine for 850 usd . sony customer service sucks ass .But they do take care of ya. May take many many phone calls to peggy but at 850 this toy is worth it. Thank you sony. Not so much the out source stuff. But NJ sony style store U get it Ty Vm.


----------



## Don Landis

Saw this in the manual. News to me but this is a great idea. Didn't know this was possible:


 Press MANUAL.

 Rotate the MANUAL dial to adjust the depth of the image on the screen.
*If you press MANUAL for several seconds, you can a  ssign another menu item to the MANUAL dial.*


----------



## TonyW79SFV

Congrats, icerat4 on being one of the first few to receive your HDR-TD10. I did check Sony Style earlier today and at one time, the status said backordered and would ship 2 May 2011; checked again tonight and saw only the backordered status with no shipment date. I pre-ordered from Amazon a few weeks ago and tonight heard no new status on my TD10 shipment yet, not even an ETA.


Sony got an extra $250 from me from this delay; I caved in and ordered the MHS-FS3 3D Bloggie when Amazon started having them in stock earlier this week (the delay for it is only 5 days from the originally scheduled debut date). The 3D Bloggie will be my temporary toy while I wait for the TD10. It's interesting to note that the 3D Bloggie is also backordered on Sony Style's site but not Amazon.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TonyW79SFV* /forum/post/20371642
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting to note that the 3D Bloggie is also backordered on Sony Style's site but not Amazon.




This confirms my experience suggesting that SonyStyle has limited product compared to some of the other sources for Sony products. Go figure.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20371220
> 
> 
> Saw this in the manual. News to me but this is a great idea. Didn't know this was possible:
> 
> 
>  Press MANUAL.
> 
>  Rotate the MANUAL dial to adjust the depth of the image on the screen.
> *If you press MANUAL for several seconds, you can a  ssign another menu item to the MANUAL dial.*







I will let ya know what options open up when i do this later this am. I am done reading thru the instruction book. Batts are fully charged so now i shoot and play.I am a rookie so bare with me.


----------



## bravia3D

I'm curious about this cam even though I own the JVC, please post videos once you shoot them!


----------



## icerat4

ok heres a real noob question should the lcd screen be clear or have an unfocus double image when in 3d mode. The lcd screen on this is very nice i see the 3d very clear. when zooming it gets a little un focus but then adjusted nicely.I just turned the cam on and set 3d to auto and thats it. I am at work with the cam. Once i get home tonight i will see how it looks on my tv.Other wise just viewing stuff on the lcd looks amazing clear and nice 3d too.


----------



## icerat4

I kinda got the impression from the instructions that there would be some distrortion in the lcd when shooting 3d. I see a little but nothing crazy.This is one of the reason i hate being a noob with a new toy first. Lol knowing what to look for. Until i get home and play the stuff on my tv i wont know. Will this display be top and bottom side by side .


----------



## Don Landis

icerat4- When it comes to 3D we are all noobs! That's why I went to classes and read what the experts write. Frank buys stuff and experiments. Together we'll all figure it out and have fun in the process.


On the screen- here is what I was told as the best way to operate the TD10- Set up your scene in 2D mode. Once you are satisfied with the shot in 2D, even if you need to make manual adjustments to stuff like the focus, exposure, f-stop using the knob, then switch to 3D and adjust your view angle as the screen is a single viewer device. If you need to adjust the z-depth use the knob to tweak that. Now roll camera! and then call Action!










There will be times you will want to just shoot 3D on the fly. Understandable, but then you should not expect to achieve 100% perfect results. Rather you load up your shots in the camera and later select the good stuff, tossing out the bad.


Last week I shot some pics of my grandson age 2 coloring easter eggs for the first time with my cell phone. He was so startled at the color his facial expressions were priceless ( to the family) Everyone wanted to know how I can get such great shots. Here's the secret: To get the two they saw I shot close to 50 pictures and tossed the other 48 out.









Most people I know shoot digital like they were paying Kodak $3 per picture to get them developed. Film in my camera is reusable so shoot shoot shoot and pick out what is good later on. The moment is priceless, not the click of the shutter. Same goes for video. Just make sure you aren't making the same mistakes that you know results in poor quality. 3D will have new things to learn on what will ruin the 3D effect.


----------



## TonyW79SFV

Looks like B&H received some TD10s for shipment as they changed the status to "New Item, Available for pre-order" with the disclaimer: "This is a new item being released in limited quantity, We are accepting orders and they will be filled in the order they are received. Your card will be charged upon placing the order." Amazon: no dice. But all in all this is progress from the perpetual backordered status.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TonyW79SFV* /forum/post/20371642
> 
> 
> Sony got an extra $250 from me from this delay; I caved in and ordered the MHS-FS3 3D Bloggie when Amazon started having them in stock earlier this week (the delay for it is only 5 days from the originally scheduled debut date). The 3D Bloggie will be my temporary toy while I wait for the TD10. It's interesting to note that the 3D Bloggie is also backordered on Sony Style's site but not Amazon.



Yes, I got word that my 3D Bloggie order will be here tomorrow too. From Amazon.


I wanted to have small compact 3D camera to keep with me. It was a tossup a few months ago between the Fuji and the Sony but again the Sony won, based on image quality this time. I can't wait to mix Bloggie video with the TD10 in Vegas for two camera angles of view.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20373379
> 
> 
> icerat4- When it comes to 3D we are all noobs! That's why I went to classes and read what the experts write. Frank buys stuff and experiments.



Much of what I buy winds up as part of something I build.


----------



## icerat4

Thanks i will just keep shooting different stuff and see how this works out. I have to figure out how i can get the 3d stuff i shoot onto a dvd. So i have a place to store all my shoots. I am going to shoot my boys playing hockey this sunday will see how that goes. Ive just been leaving it on 3d and shoot and i have to say the lcd vids are nice very nice lcd screen 3d without glasses shows very nice. Now i just have to get home and see it on the big screen ..







i wish more had them here so i could pick up good tips . But i guess i have to wait for that to happen.


----------



## icerat4

Well don i hope you get your sony soon. So you can enlighten me on some tips.If you guys guide me thru how to download what i have shot so you can see it please let me know what and where to do it and i will show ya what ive done.


----------



## Don Landis

You can start with installing the PMB software. Some here may try to tell you you don't need to do that and that is true but without it the file names will be cryptic and PMB just makes things easier and you will have thumbnails as well. Plus you can then burn your downloads to a DVD or BD-R if you have a burner. Later you'll want to install Vegas or your choice of editing software even if you don't edit as that will allow you to re-render clips to a format of choice. I got into the habit of pulling everything into Vegas to check out but other players will also work.


The Bloggie has software that allows you to directly upload the 3D to Youtube and other online services. I see Frank uses Dropbox which is quite popular. I have my own server which allows me to do as I please but there are lots of different online services that allow you to upload your video and give you a link to it to publish.


----------



## icerat4

Hey guys On my camara there is a setting that says HDMI 3D Setting.



Set HDMI output when connected to 3D TV.



AUTO Frame Packing Side By Side which is the best setting to go with.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20374580
> 
> 
> You can start with installing the PMB software. Some here may try to tell you you don't need to do that and that is true but without it the file names will be cryptic and PMB just makes things easier and you will have thumbnails as well. Plus you can then burn your downloads to a DVD or BD-R if you have a burner. Later you'll want to install Vegas or your choice of editing software even if you don't edit as that will allow you to re-render clips to a format of choice. I got into the habit of pulling everything into Vegas to check out but other players will also work.
> 
> 
> The Bloggie has software that allows you to directly upload the 3D to Youtube and other online services. I see Frank uses Dropbox which is quite popular. I have my own server which allows me to do as I please but there are lots of different online services that allow you to upload your video and give you a link to it to publish.




yes i do have PMB on both my computers i love it. So once i take the 3d vids from the cam to pmb just burn it on a dvd. Or i also have a blu ray burner in my high end computer so i am assuming i could also burn all the footage on a bl disk to correct. That would be great. Funny i was shooting at my bodyshop today .And playing around with the settings .Found out i was shooting in 1080i So i switched it to 1080p. opps lol the rookie learning curve.


----------



## icerat4

I will tell all you guys waiting to get this cam. You will be very happy you waited.The lcd screen is really cool. I thought yea sure its a gimmick look. I can assure you its not. The 3d without glasses imo is very clear very nice. You were right Don well worth the wait fo sure. Just the playback on the lcd is great.So i cant wait to see it on the Big screen. I will have a update on that later tonight.


----------



## SYOTR

I was wondering if the Sony came with any software to do basic editing of the 3D files. Can they be saved to SD or flash and viewed on a 3D TV?


----------



## Don Landis

ice- make sure you are using the latest PMB that came with the TD10 and not some earlier version. I heard that the version from older camcorders does not do 3D.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20374879
> 
> 
> ice- make sure you are using the latest PMB that came with the TD10 and not some earlier version. I heard that the version from older camcorders does not do 3D.



I have 5.5.02.12220 which is the latest as i try to do updates and it says latest version. So were all good there. Watching hockey games tonight . Tomorrow early i will take a peek atall i shot. I like to keep the suspense last LOL. I cant wait to see how all this sony stuff works together.Thanks Don And frank for the insight.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20373379
> 
> 
> icerat4- When it comes to 3D we are all noobs! That's why I went to classes and read what the experts write. Frank buys stuff and experiments. Together we'll all figure it out and have fun in the process.
> 
> 
> On the screen- here is what I was told as the best way to operate the TD10- Set up your scene in 2D mode. Once you are satisfied with the shot in 2D, even if you need to make manual adjustments to stuff like the focus, exposure, f-stop using the knob, then switch to 3D and adjust your view angle as the screen is a single viewer device. If you need to adjust the z-depth use the knob to tweak that. Now roll camera! and then call Action!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There will be times you will want to just shoot 3D on the fly. Understandable, but then you should not expect to achieve 100% perfect results. Rather you load up your shots in the camera and later select the good stuff, tossing out the bad.
> 
> 
> Last week I shot some pics of my grandson age 2 coloring easter eggs for the first time with my cell phone. He was so startled at the color his facial expressions were priceless ( to the family) Everyone wanted to know how I can get such great shots. Here's the secret: To get the two they saw I shot close to 50 pictures and tossed the other 48 out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most people I know shoot digital like they were paying Kodak $3 per picture to get them developed. Film in my camera is reusable so shoot shoot shoot and pick out what is good later on. The moment is priceless, not the click of the shutter. Same goes for video. Just make sure you aren't making the same mistakes that you know results in poor quality. 3D will have new things to learn on what will ruin the 3D effect.



That's some good advice, Don. We'll all be making a lot of mistakes, that's for sure. I've shot over 500 clips at Shaw's Garden since I got the JVC TD1. I can't walk 3 feet without seeing another opportunity.







Since I'm in learning mode, I'm also pushing the envelop of what I've read is supposed to be done while shooting 3D. Some of it works and some of it doesn't, but I learn with every shot.


My basic shooting technique is very similar to what I've always done in 2D, but there are differences. I still try to find a way to include foreground, middle ground and background objects in the frame. And if I back off too far, the 3D effect flattens out. I've found that some types of shots that work well in 2D don't come off nearly as well in 3D. And some shots that would be a jumbled mess in 2D are fascinating in 3D.


I may have the JVC, but I'll be following this Sony thread with keen interest. I'm very excited about viewing MVC footage from the Sony, as well as SbS. Right now, I have to view my MVC footage on the JVC camcorder, but I expect I'll have computer MVC playback working on my systems before long. I really hope MVC editing gets here for JVC 3D footage before too long, but I'm really impressed with side by side mode. It looks a whole lot better than I was afraid it might.

Here's a link to some unedited side by side clips from my JVC TD1. I'll be posting links to other clips over in the JVC thread. Comments are always appreciated. It's going to be quite a learning experience - and a lot of fun.


----------



## Don Landis

Joe- thanks for the comments. I would be interested in hearing what you do to get a PC capable of watching 3D working on your computer. I think eventually, I will want to get a 3D monitor on my PC for editing. I'm sure the anaglyph in Vegas will get old fast. Today, I could kick myself for not inquiring at NAB how they had the hardware configured at Sony workstations for doing the sessions on Vegas training. Whatever they were doing it all worked nicely using the 3D passive monitor for watching the editing changes in real time. Passive is the way to go because you could continue wearing the glasses as you switched from 3D to computer monitor 2D. BUT, I understand that passive is just half resolution so that would not work for your purpose of MVC on the PC, right? I may need to wait until next year for the 4K2K passive monitors to get everything. It never ends! Meanwhile I wait for reality to happen which is my Bloggie 3D to arrive. Tracking number says today!


----------



## Frank

I'm tempted to order the Sony for an application that I have involving my work with wildlife.

The fact that it supports LANC is a major plus.

My main concern at the moment is getting live 3D video out for remote viewing.

I suppose it works just like the JVC in that the composite/svideo out is 2D only?

This means I have to add an adapter to convert the HDMI sbs output to composite to feed my computer.

I have one of these and the quality leaves a lot to be desired.


----------



## Don Landis

Frank- Why don't you hold off on the Sony until others can confirm your needs. As I recall how we left LANC discussion there was no guarantee this camcorder would support what you needed. I do have the accessories to verify that but examining the current manual for the TD10 there isn't any reference I could see for these accessories. All it addresses is the location for "Analog video/audio remote control" out jack. That would be the new D shaped connection plug as opposed to the old style stereo mini cable. As for 3D on analog: I'm dead certain that there is no analog capability for this on any camcorder. Everything is HDMI 1.4 these days for 3D video. Or, in off line you can copy/transfer files from camcorder storage to the computer hard drive via the USB 2.0 connection. USB will not support real time monitoring. HDMI will be your only way to achieve 3D output live from the camcorder. How you send that back to your base of operations is where you'll need to get creative.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20376479
> 
> 
> Frank- Why don't you hold off on the Sony until others can confirm your needs. As I recall how we left LANC discussion there was no guarantee this camcorder would support what you needed. I do have the accessories to verify that but examining the current manual for the TD10 there isn't any reference I could see for these accessories. All it addresses is the location for "Analog video/audio remote control" out jack. That would be the new D shaped connection plug as opposed to the old style stereo mini cable. As for 3D on analog: I'm dead certain that there is no analog capability for this on any camcorder. Everything is HDMI 1.4 these days for 3D video. Or, in off line you can copy/transfer files from camcorder storage to the computer hard drive via the USB 2.0 connection. USB will not support real time monitoring. HDMI will be your only way to achieve 3D output live from the camcorder. How you send that back to your base of operations is where you'll need to get creative.



Thanks Don,

I just saw on DVINFO.net that it supports LANC.

Right now I'm getting pretty good 3D remotely using the left and right camera analog outputs and multiplexing them on the computer.

I have hope that I can find a laptop with USB 3.0 that supports the BlackMagic Design HDMI to USB3.0 capture box. With that I should be able to stream live 3D in very high quality via the current method I'm using.


----------



## icerat4

Holy Crap Don Frank. This cam is awesome. Geez what i shot and saw on my hx800 was unbelievable to say the least. I took shots of my wifes flowers on a porch and holy cow














Very very nice. I have all the settings on auto Lol. But im sure with pratice i will get better. I do understand and see when shooting how its nice to have near mid and far imagies in the shot to create a nice 3d experince. Just wanted to let all know here. Hang tight you will not be disappointed at all. Going to shoot a hockey game tomorrow







. The only time i did notice a very very lil ghosting was in weird light situation and fast in and out zoom. Other wize flawless to my eye. Even at dusk i took some same footage of the flowers in the same manner as eariler.And it still looked great.So thats my short review for now.


----------



## W.Mayer

there is a test in a germany magazine "videoaktiv digital"

that test the sony and the jvc 3d cam.


i just read it fast but they say that the jvc have much more resolution.


Sony Resolution vertically 689LP JVC 960LP

Sony Resolution horizontally 621LP JVC 960LP


that means the sony will have not as far as much details in the picture and will be looks

a bit soft compare to the jvc.

can anybody confirm this?

i can not believe this.


they als say the display the sony have is much better but i read posts here that say the same.


it will may 2 weeks befor i can test both myself.


please note this is the europe 50 frame version.

i buy the us version with 60 frame as it not flickers and have more frame and therefore better motion.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20376224
> 
> 
> Joe- thanks for the comments. I would be interested in hearing what you do to get a PC capable of watching 3D working on your computer. I think eventually, I will want to get a 3D monitor on my PC for editing. I'm sure the anaglyph in Vegas will get old fast. Today, I could kick myself for not inquiring at NAB how they had the hardware configured at Sony workstations for doing the sessions on Vegas training. Whatever they were doing it all worked nicely using the 3D passive monitor for watching the editing changes in real time. Passive is the way to go because you could continue wearing the glasses as you switched from 3D to computer monitor 2D. BUT, I understand that passive is just half resolution so that would not work for your purpose of MVC on the PC, right? I may need to wait until next year for the 4K2K passive monitors to get everything. It never ends! Meanwhile I wait for reality to happen which is my Bloggie 3D to arrive. Tracking number says today!



Here's a link to DAVTechTable YouTube videos , and this one talks about 3D monitoring with Adobe Premiere - everything from colored glasses to active. This is a 7 part series on Premiere and Cineform's NeoHD and Neo3D, but Cineform's Firstlight works with Vegas, too. What I'm not sure about is Vegas' monitoring options. Frank's the one who's worked with Firstlight in both Premiere and Vegas. Since I've been out of the editing loop for a while, I"m still getting up to speed on these newest developments. Lots to learn. As for MVC viewing, that happens with Arcsoft's Total Media Theater 5. That's what I'll have to use to watch the JVC's mp4 files from the computer.


Last night I watched well over an hour's worth of footage I shot in MVC mode on the TD1. I didn't see any of the side by side artifacts that sometimes manifest in that mode - minor line jittering and aliasing. MVC output from the JVC is outstanding, and pretty much ghost free on my Samsung plasma display. Wish I could say the same for my JVC 3D projector. Although it's great with 3D Blu-ray, with virtually no ghosting, it ghosts badly with certain kinds of content.


----------



## Joseph Clark

I'm cross posting the following, but I had to set the record straight here because of some misinformation I've been spreading about the new JVC 3D projectors:


I need to apologize and offer a retraction - sort of. I jumped to a conclusion about 120hz video on the JVC projectors. I said I was convinced they couldn't handle 120hz refresh rates without ghosting. The fact is that ghosting with footage shot in MVC mode on JVC's TD1 3D camcorder is not a problem. I just watched some Shaw's Garden MVC footage and it looks wonderful on my JVC RS40. Side by side video on the RS40 is a problem, and I much prefer watching it on my Samsung 3D plasma. The Samsung ghosts far less with SbS 120hz. For MVC, the RS40 turns into a different animal. I don't know why. With SbS, I can't escape the ghosting. With MVC footage, I barely notice it. It's like 3D Blu-ray. And because the JVC has far superior black level and contrast compared to the Samsung, it has a lot more "pop."


Again, I apologize. I jumped to a conclusion, and it was just plain wrong. I'll be shooting only in MVC mode from now on, and I won't worry about a compromised picture for me and my guests. It's a big relief for me, but it also emphasizes the need to get a viable 3D editing solution for MVC files.


----------



## Don Landis

Joe- Interesting observation- With the Sony VW90ES, I see no ghosting at all on BluRay content. I see frequent ghosting on SBS, especially when rules are broken in the shooting. e.g. not to pick on Frank but most of his experiments show ghosting but then we have to accept that he is experimenting with pushing the camcorders into conditions they were published as not designed for. Some video 3D on Vudu which is full frame packed I see mostly washed out colors compared to BD. I have one blueray made in Holland that is washed out video and sideby side. It has a bunch of ghosting but all of that is near the bottom of the screen for some reason. I shot a similar look with the Bloggie today and no ghosting.


My rule- I shoot in the maximum resolution the camera is capable of when not experimenting. I don't want to be caught with a library that could have been shot better technically. I have enough self critical disappointment in my shooting capability so I don't need more kicking myself having wasted an opportunity with being in SD mode. Glad you will follow that rule too as your shooting is quite good. On the JVC you can off load your clips to a hard drive in MVC can't you?


----------



## icerat4

i did this short youtube vid let me know if it worked for you guys



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTurxp7CnSs


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20379261
> 
> 
> i did this short youtube vid let me know if it worked for you guys
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTurxp7CnSs



That appears to be a 2D video that you tagged as 3D.


----------



## icerat4

well i downloaded the stuff i shot on a memory card to pmb then just sent the vid to youtube and in tags i typed in yt3d:embed=true what am i doing wrong.everything i shot on the cam was set on auto.when i played it on the tv it to was set to auto and stuff looked nice.what am i missing.the vids i downloaded to pmb played on pmb look normal no blur nothing 2d and very clear.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20379347
> 
> 
> well i downloaded the stuff i shot on a memory card to pmb then just sent the vid to youtube and in tags i typed in yt3d:embed=true what am i doing wrong.everything i shot on the cam was set on auto.when i played it on the tv it to was set to auto and stuff looked nice.what am i missing.the vids i downloaded to pmb played on pmb look normal no blur nothing 2d and very clear.



My guess would be that PMB is the problem. It doesn't see the 3D attributes and treats it as 2D.

You should just use a internet browser to upload via YouTube.com and select upload and enter the filename directly.


----------



## icerat4

ok try this . if this dosent work someone please give me a play by play to upload to utube. i have the vids on memory card .





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=348xfG4ORWQ


----------



## Don Landis

Two problems ice-


First of all your choice of location had lots of glass and the glass had lots of reflections of the same scene dislocated from the real scene which really confused the 3D.

Second, you need to slow down the camera movement. You are moving much too fast for my brain to catchup to the images.


The video is obviously in red / cyan anaglyph which YouTube did to whatever you uploaded. When I put red cyan glasses on the slower camera movements began to come into 3D view for me.


Couple of tips to improve your 3D productions-


1. shoot only scenes with solid objects that have no reflections.


2. shoot with the camera still for 5-10 seconds, pause move camera hold it still and shoot another without camera movement. This will cut the scenes together in the camera edit and be easier to see.


When photographer must shoot in an environment with lots of glass reflections, use a polarizing filter ( tricky with 3D) to remove the glare.



With 3D video that is being switched such as active glasses, camera movement MUST be kept to very very slow or the image will not track with the eyes and your 3D will be lost to a blurred set of objects in the scene. When the eyes switch, the scene must be the same for each eye for a 30th of a second. If one eye sees a different image than the other each switch point the image 3D will be lost to a blur. In anaglyph the blur becomes a mess of red and cyan over the colored scene. It has no definition.


----------



## Frank

I just played it and it still appears to be a 2D video with the flag set to 3D.


----------



## Frank

Did you shoot the video in MVC or AVCHD mode?


----------



## Don Landis

OK no more reflections but there is something really strange with your video. In the simplest part where there is a table and a stool if I pause the video and look at it with the glasses, one eye at a time, you have actually two different scenes superimposed over each other. I have no idea how this is happening. If I know where and when you shot those two, I may be able to figure out what is getting screwed up here. If you are seeing perfect video in playback on your 3D monitor then it must be something you are doing in YouTube. There are other uploads in anaglyph that look great so the You Tube system works.


Can you grab a couple of stills and send me the raw image with no anaglyph conversion?


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20379680
> 
> 
> OK no more reflections but there is something really strange with your video. In the simplest part where there is a table and a stool if I pause the video and look at it with the glasses, one eye at a time, you have actually two different scenes superimposed over each other. I have no idea how this is happening. If I know where and when you shot those two, I may be able to figure out what is getting screwed up here. If you are seeing perfect video in playback on your 3D monitor then it must be something you are doing in YouTube. There are other uploads in anaglyph that look great so the You Tube system works.
> 
> 
> Can you grab a couple of stills and send me the raw image with no anaglyph conversion?



The problem is that he uploaded a 2D video but set the youtube flag to 3D and youtube just assumes it's sbs 3d and this is the result.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20379617
> 
> 
> ok try this . if this dosent work someone please give me a play by play to upload to utube. i have the vids on memory card .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=348xfG4ORWQ



I think what you did is upload a MVC 3D file that YouTube sees as 2D because it doesn't support the MVC 3D format currently. You then set the flag to YT3D enable = true which tells Youtube that it's 3D.

Doing that makes YouTube assume it's a sbs AVCHD type format which it isn't.


----------



## icerat4

the files in property say avc i dont know how to shoot or get the mvc deal Sorry guys i am a total noob bare with me . Here is what ive done


1. all settings to auto

2. shot vids on the memory card

3 put vid card in computer and waited for pmb to ask to import

4 vids were all uploaded to pmb

5 when i hit the right mouse for propertys it say avc files 5.1

thats it. So i have to figure out the mvc files



inn the manual memory card hd imiage quality says

3d ps FX FH HQ LP



I dont see mvc anywheres


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20380002
> 
> 
> the files in property say avc i dont know how to shoot or get the mvc deal Sorry guys i am a total noob bare with me . Here is what ive done
> 
> 
> 1. all settings to auto
> 
> 2. shot vids on the memory card
> 
> 3 put vid card in computer and waited for pmb to ask to import
> 
> 4 vids were all uploaded to pmb
> 
> 5 when i hit the right mouse for propertys it say avc files 5.1
> 
> thats it. So i have to figure out the mvc files
> 
> 
> 
> inn the manual memory card hd imiage quality says
> 
> 3d ps FX FH HQ LP
> 
> 
> 
> I dont see mvc anywheres



Did you try uploading the file from your computer using the upload facility on the YouTube.com website?


----------



## Don Landis

OK here's my attempt at using You Tube 3D I had to renew and link my accounts as I haven't used YouTube in a couple years.


Finally got it working.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHdeB0ra5WM 



The video has a variety of clips from micro tripod, to handheld, sunlight to shade, simple to busy subject around my backyard. I have not viewed this video on my Sony Projector, only on YouTube in anaglyph color mode. I also just learned about the 3D tags and I must say that info was hard to find.


So, this is my first attempt with the Bl;oggie shot this morning at 10:30AM clips were quickly butted together in Vegas and rendered. Then I spent an hour trying to figure out how to do this in You Tube.


----------



## Don Landis

Hey Frank I put his SBS video up without the anaglyph mode and he clearly has two different video clips running in sync. I have no idea how he did that.


----------



## icerat4

ok i am doing something wrong me thinks . in the manual the only thing i see in mvc is the movie recording format



THIS is right out of the instructions


HD.

3D MVC {original format}

2D MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 AVCHD format compatible {1080/60p orignal format}

STD MPEG2-PS





The movies i have in pmb say avc .does pmb except mvc .where the heck is the settings for the highest quialty. Dam i hate being the new guy .Lol I did shoot some hockey this morning and got home and look at it .Looked nice to me i guess. There is a setting in the cam WHEN HOOKED UP TO THE TV .iT SAYS Auto SbS and framepack does that have something to do with mvc. boy i am clueless


----------



## icerat4

Ok i found some other settings you have to set cam to 2d to open up these other menus . I got frame rate what should i select 60i 60p 24p.. REC MODE WAS ON STANDARD i ASSUME FX is the highest setting there is a chart on the bottom of this screen that says


recordable /Coypable meadia



internal mem memorey card HDD Bluray AVCHD




When i select standard All are on. When i select highest quality FX .The avchd selection is crossed out. Any clues on all this stuff. PLEASE advie me on the frame rate deal thanks alot guys serious thanks.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20380226
> 
> 
> Hey Frank I put his SBS video up without the anaglyph mode and he clearly has two different video clips running in sync. I have no idea how he did that.



That's not what I'm seeing.

I am definitely seeing a 2D video with the left and right sides overlaping.

Your video on the other hand looks fine.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20380227
> 
> 
> ok i am doing something wrong me thinks . in the manual the only thing i see in mvc is the movie recording format
> 
> 
> 
> THIS is right out of the instructions
> 
> 
> HD.
> 
> 3D MVC {original format}
> 
> 2D MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 AVCHD format compatible {1080/60p orignal format}
> 
> STD MPEG2-PS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The movies i have in pmb say avc .does pmb except mvc .where the heck is the settings for the highest quialty. Dam i hate being the new guy .Lol I did shoot some hockey this morning and got home and look at it .Looked nice to me i guess. There is a setting in the cam WHEN HOOKED UP TO THE TV .iT SAYS Auto SbS and framepack does that have something to do with mvc. boy i am clueless



The way I read it is that the Sony only records 3D in frame packed MVC mode unlike the JVC which does both MVC and AVCHD 3D.

Seems to me that there is no way to get 3D out of this thing onto your computer.

I hope I'm wrong about this.


----------



## icerat4

Whats the best frame rate 60i 60p 24p ..


----------



## icerat4

I can tell ya this with rec mode in standard stuff looks good to me..Frank when i choose a lower rec mode such as just high quality FH all recordable /copyable media are lit up .its when i select FX highest quailty the avchd has a slash red line thru it.But blu ray hdd memory card and int memory are all on.


----------



## Frank

I don't know much about this camcorder at all but I just looked at the online manual and it appears that the 3D can only be played back from the camera.

Until Sony supplies a method of working with the 3D MVC files this is pretty much a 2D camera as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## icerat4

Whats the best frame rate 60i 60p 24p .. Trust me guys ive seen alot of 3d movies and know what i saw on my tv. the hockey i shot this am while in even standard looks really nice. When others get it frank i am sure they can clue ya in way better then me. I am just a guy that like new toys a full pleaged rookie. Sorry i cant be much more informative for ya.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20380431
> 
> 
> Whats the best frame rate 60i 60p 24p .. Trust me guys ive seen alot of 3d movies and know what i saw on my tv. the hockey i shot this am while in even standard looks really nice. When others get it frank i am sure they can clue ya in way better then me. I am just a guy that like new toys a full pleaged rookie. Sorry i cant be much more informative for ya.



In 2D mode I would use 60P in 3D mode 60I is the only option I believe.


----------



## sbg777




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20380386
> 
> 
> I don't know much about this camcorder at all but I just looked at the online manual and it appears that the 3D can only be played back from the camera.
> 
> Until Sony supplies a method of working with the 3D MVC files this is pretty much a 2D camera as far as I'm concerned.



Hey Guys, I've been following this thread as I'm interested in getting one of these cameras.


You are correct Frank, until the new version of Vegas Pro comes out there is no way to edit the MVC files.


My question to anyone who might know is can the MVC files be "converted" to side by side with the current version of Vegas Pro?


Jim


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sbg777* /forum/post/20380496
> 
> 
> 
> My question to anyone who might know is can the MVC files be "converted" to side by side with the current version of Vegas Pro?
> 
> 
> Jim



I wish. Vegas Pro 10 version c crashes when loading MVC files.

Hopefully D will be released soon. Sony had announced it would be available end of April. (didn't happen)


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20380451
> 
> 
> In 2D mode I would use 60P in 3D mode 60I is the only option I believe.





The options on my screen 24p 60i 60p Those are the 3 to choose from. Saying that which is best.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20380559
> 
> 
> The options on my screen 24p 60i 60p Those are the 3 to choose from. Saying that which is best.



60P is best!


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sbg777* /forum/post/20380496
> 
> 
> Hey Guys, I've been following this thread as I'm interested in getting one of these cameras.
> 
> 
> You are correct Frank, until the new version of Vegas Pro comes out there is no way to edit the MVC files.
> 
> 
> My question to anyone who might know is can the MVC files be "converted" to side by side with the current version of Vegas Pro?
> 
> 
> Jim



Don't know about the Sony, but the latest version of the JVC software allows you to backup its MVC files to the computer, then convert them to AVCHD side by side and burn them to disc. The conversion takes a while, but it's a way of sharing your work with others right away. Of course, now that I've seen MVC files on my projector, SbS looks less attractive - still good, though, and a nice stopgap until we have MVC editing solutions.


----------



## geezin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20380386
> 
> 
> I don't know much about this camcorder at all but I just looked at the online manual and it appears that the 3D can only be played back from the camera.
> 
> Until Sony supplies a method of working with the 3D MVC files this is pretty much a 2D camera as far as I'm concerned.



Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.


It looks like you're right, Frank. The .mvc files have to be played through the camera.


When Vegas Pro 10d is released... Different story.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20380580
> 
> 
> 60P is best!



Can you give me in lame mans term why. Whats the differnce between all three. I just set mine to fx highest quailty and 60i went outside shot some new footage flowers trees. Holy cow. Things just alittle better. Expecially the trees with lots of depth with tree in front of tree all in a row.But i will take your advice and do apreicate the help mucho.60p it is.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20379225
> 
> 
> Joe- Interesting observation- With the Sony VW90ES, I see no ghosting at all on BluRay content. I see frequent ghosting on SBS, especially when rules are broken in the shooting. e.g. not to pick on Frank but most of his experiments show ghosting but then we have to accept that he is experimenting with pushing the camcorders into conditions they were published as not designed for. Some video 3D on Vudu which is full frame packed I see mostly washed out colors compared to BD. I have one blueray made in Holland that is washed out video and sideby side. It has a bunch of ghosting but all of that is near the bottom of the screen for some reason. I shot a similar look with the Bloggie today and no ghosting.
> 
> 
> My rule- I shoot in the maximum resolution the camera is capable of when not experimenting. I don't want to be caught with a library that could have been shot better technically. I have enough self critical disappointment in my shooting capability so I don't need more kicking myself having wasted an opportunity with being in SD mode. Glad you will follow that rule too as your shooting is quite good. On the JVC you can off load your clips to a hard drive in MVC can't you?



Yes, the JVC software allows you to import the mp4 files into a 3D library on your computer's hard drive. It keeps it organized by date (and other ways, if you want) - kinda cool. It also allows you to convert MVC to side by side. Total Media Theater 5 allows you to play the mp4 files directly from the computer, but it's not triggering my projector to go into 3D mode (no IR signal is being sent to the emitter). I'll get that working. Unfortunately, right now I'm not getting any 3D to play back on my computer.


I agree completely about shooting in the highest quality mode. I was just experimenting with the first footage I shot, but now I wish I'd shot that in MVC, too. Fortunately, I have all summer to get back to Shaw's Garden. I have a membership, and I plan to use it a lot. I think it's one of the most beautiful places on the planet.


You know, Frank is my 3D hero. I've been following his adventures here from the beginning. He's the one who inspired me to start shooting again. I hadn't done much of it for a few years. I'm hoping we can all continue to work together as we explore shooting and editing in the coming months and years. A big part of that will be sharing our experiences and our work - not as easy in 3D as it is in 2D, is it?


I look forward to watching some of the footage you guys have been talking about later today. I shot some footage of my great nephews earlier today, and I'll be watching it, too.


----------



## icerat4

Well if i set the cam too 60p it says cannot save to blu ray/dvd in 60p.



And the recordable list just got shorter. Blu ray and avchd now are crossed off but int memory and card memory and hdd are on. so i guess 60i is best for recordable/copyable meadia


----------



## icerat4

Knowing if set to 60p wont get copyied i will still try it and see how it looks on the tv. But i will say bumping up from standard to fx highest setting helped.So much to learn. Lol I will then set it back to 60i which i assume is the next best setting correct frank.


----------



## Don Landis

Frank and Icerat4:


This is what I see being uploaded on both Icerat4's clips. The widescreen is split in 2 and the left side is on the right, the right half is on the left.


Each eye clip should be full frame but squeezed horizontally so everything looks tall. Ice's video looks normal but it is just cut in two. I'll have to think about this as I can't see what he is doing that causes that. It must be something but working right with You Tube if he is seeing things OK on his monitor. Here are two screen grabs from each clip:


----------



## icerat4

Don the only mode on this cam is the cam to tv setting .Options are Auto which i left it on that. Sbs and framepacking .When i olug the can into my tv since in auto mode my screen on the tv is blurry.Not SbS nor top and bottom. Just a lite blur and im telling ya i just reset some settings and things got better.I will be able to view your utube vids later im watching a hockey game lol. Wonder how you guys do side by side on u tube.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20380660
> 
> 
> Frank and Icerat4:
> 
> 
> This is what I see being uploaded on both Icerat4's clips. The widescreen is split in 2 and the left side is on the right, the right half is on the left.
> 
> 
> Each eye clip should be full frame but squeezed horizontally so everything looks tall. Ice's video looks normal but it is just cut in two. I'll have to think about this as I can't see what he is doing that causes that. It must be something but working right with You Tube if he is seeing things OK on his monitor. Here are two screen grabs from each clip:





Man thats wierd .IVE never seen side by side at all .On this cam.I will try leaving that one setting on SbS WHEN I PLAY the cam thru the tv again and see.I will also burn a dvd tonight and see if what i shot in standard mode will play into my ps3 or sony 3d blu ray player.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20380660
> 
> 
> Frank and Icerat4:
> 
> 
> This is what I see being uploaded on both Icerat4's clips. The widescreen is split in 2 and the left side is on the right, the right half is on the left.
> 
> 
> Each eye clip should be full frame but squeezed horizontally so everything looks tall. Ice's video looks normal but it is just cut in two. I'll have to think about this as I can't see what he is doing that causes that. It must be something but working right with You Tube if he is seeing things OK on his monitor. Here are two screen grabs from each clip:



I already explained what causes it earlier.

I should know since I've made the same mistake myself in the past so I know what it looks like.


----------



## JediMastr

yeah Frank is right....not much of a mystery: Youtube is simply taking a regular 2D video and making it SbS "3D" because it "thinks" the file he uploaded and tagged as 3D must be SbS.


So from what I've been reading, and I'll admit it's mostly skimming--neither JVC nor sony record 3D in anything but MVC? There are no other modes for capturing and sharing 3D video like the bloggie does?


Edit: Nevermind...when I think about it, they shouldn't bother with the bloggie type method...cameras like these should record in the highest quality 3D mode they're capable of, and then those files can be converted to whatever lower quality is needed for sharing...just thought it odd the bloggie could do something they couldn't.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JediMastr* /forum/post/20381243
> 
> 
> yeah Frank is right....not much of a mystery: Youtube is simply taking a regular 2D video and making it SbS "3D" because it "thinks" the file he uploaded and tagged as 3D must be SbS.
> 
> 
> So from what I've been reading, and I'll admit it's mostly skimming--neither JVC nor sony record 3D in anything but MVC? There are no other modes for capturing and sharing 3D video like the bloggie does?
> 
> 
> Edit: Nevermind...when I think about it, they shouldn't bother with the bloggie type method...cameras like these should record in the highest quality 3D mode they're capable of, and then those files can be converted to whatever lower quality is needed for sharing...just thought it odd the bloggie could do something they couldn't.



You can set the JVC to record in AVCHD side by side mode (each eye is converted from 1920x1080 to 960x1080 and stored as a single 1920x1080 video) or MVC mode (full 1920x1080 pixels per eye). When in side by side mode, it creates h.264 standard files which can be dragged into Windows when you plug the camera up via USB. The files will play in almost any Blu-ray player (or PS3). When I burn these files to DVD and play them on my Panasonic 110 3D Blu-ray player, my JVC RS40 projector automatically goes into 3D mode. There's no need to switch to 3D mode manually, as I have to do when playing the files from the computer. The JVC's MVC files can also be imported into the computer and played in software, although I don't have that working yet. Frank does.


Are you guys saying that the Sony doesn't create side by side files that can be imported into the computer? And that it's MVC files can't be brought in either? I thought they could.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/20381369
> 
> 
> 
> Are you guys saying that the Sony doesn't create side by side files that can be imported into the computer? And that it's MVC files can't be brought in either? I thought they could.



Yes, that's what we're saying.


----------



## icerat4

I just want to say this as far as my review.For the average joe like me.Who justs wants to pickup a 3d camcorder and shoot and see nice 3d on your tv.This sony is nice. I will learn and experiment as i go.I like what i see and i guess thats all that matters.Thanks for the help guys.


----------



## bigbarney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/20381369
> 
> 
> 
> Are you guys saying that the Sony doesn't create side by side files that can be imported into the computer? And that it's MVC files can't be brought in either? I thought they could.



Well that's true at the moment, but Vegas 10d which should be released anytime now (should have been late last week) *WILL* import and edit MVC from the Sony cams.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbarney* /forum/post/20381480
> 
> 
> Well that's true at the moment, but Vegas 10d which should be released anytime now (should have been late last week) *WILL* import and edit MVC from the Sony cams.



In what format(s) can they be exported, and how they can be played back? Is this known yet?


----------



## Don Landis

Lets not jump the gun here. I worked with clips pulled into Vegas from the TD10 and in version 10c they port in as SBS. half resolution clips, just like Joe explained. What 10d will give you is full resolution frame packed, the highest recorded video from the TD10. Plus the ability to edit this mode and then render / burn it to a BluRay BD-R. Also, what I saw pulled in from the TD10 looks exactly the same type of video construct as what I am doing with the Bloggie 3D.


I wish I had the TD10 here and I would create a step by step for you icerat. Then do the same for the 10d Vegas.


FYI- The Bloggie 3D video is exported to the computer as a SBS 3D clip 1080i 29.97 fps. half resolution.



I'm only trying to figure out where I may have flipped the left and right anaglyph colors in my rendering process, either with Vegas when I created the upload file as a SBS half resolution or in You Tube when I tagged it as 3D. The SBS video of the same clip looks fine on my Sony. There is no left right flip from the original file I used to upload to YouTube so I'm believing it was switched at You Tube.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20382061
> 
> 
> Lets not jump the gun here. I worked with clips pulled into Vegas from the TD10 and in version 10c they port in as SBS. half resolution clips, just like Joe explained. What 10d will give you is full resolution frame packed, the highest recorded video from the TD10. Plus the ability to edit this mode and then render / burn it to a BluRay BD-R. Also, what I saw pulled in from the TD10 looks exactly the same type of video construct as what I am doing with the Bloggie 3D.
> 
> 
> I wish I had the TD10 here and I would create a step by step for you icerat. Then do the same for the 10d Vegas.
> 
> 
> FYI- The Bloggie 3D video is exported to the computer as a SBS 3D clip 1080i 29.97 fps. half resolution.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only trying to figure out where I may have flipped the left and right anaglyph colors in my rendering process, either with Vegas when I created the upload file as a SBS half resolution or in You Tube when I tagged it as 3D. The SBS video of the same clip looks fine on my Sony. There is no left right flip from the original file I used to upload to YouTube so I'm believing it was switched at You Tube.



I seem to remember reading that YouTube used to use left side/right image, right side/left image format, but that they've changed. The tags have to reflect the correct orientation, but I don't know the details.


So you're saying Vegas 10d will import MVC clips and then render the program as fully compliant, full HD 3D video that can be burned to BD-R and played back on a regular 3D Blu-ray player? I know that's exactly what I want to do. I wonder if Vegas has some limitations in its trial version, as Premiere does? If so, I might not be able to use it to render a test project. If that happens, would you mind if I send you some JVC mp4 clips for testing when 10d becomes available? I know it's unlikely they'll work, but who knows? I might get lucky.







I have so very many "OMG, that's beautiful" clips from Shaw's Garden. I'm finding that the most limiting factor when I watch these clips from the JVC is the shutter glasses themselves. Unless I hold my head just right, the image can go soft. If I turn my head just a "hair," all the resolution comes into focus. The problem is all in the glasses. (I'm picking up on this now, I think, because I do so many long, lingering stationary shots. Of course, you don't get much of that in regular 3D Blu-ray.)


I see an incredible amount of detail in grass, bark, evergreen needles, rocks - and every texture is crystal clear. With the black level and contrast on my RS40, it's as close to being at Shaw's Garden as I'm going to get without being there physically. I'd love to be able to burn this footage to a 3D Blu-ray disc, with some music in the background. I think it might compare favorably to the old "Sunrise Earth" programs that used to air on Discovery HD Theater - but better, because it's 3D.


----------



## Joseph Clark

 Hey, Don, here's a link to some of my favorite clips from Shaw's Garden. I posted it over in the JVC thread. Maybe you could try to pull them into Vegas when Sony gets around to releasing it. Even in 2D (and they play in 2D as is in Win 7 Media Player or TMT5 or PowerDVD 10) these clips give a good idea about the image quality the JVC camera is capable of producing. I think it's stunning.


----------



## Don Landis

The limitation for burning a BD-R from the timeline in Vegas 10d will be no menu structure. For that we will need to wait until DVD Architecture can do 3D BD-R. Sony Rep strongly hinted that will be coming soon. All I can take from that is they are working on it for next version.

When we finally get 10d in, I'll give your files a test. Everyone is curious about that.


----------



## icerat4

I would like to know if fx mode highest quailty and 60p setting is actually mvc files. how in the heck do i know if i am gettin mvc files .Compared to the avc files i see in pmb.One woud think that if you turn on all the settings on the cam to the highest best settings that would be mvc files correct.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20382061
> 
> 
> Lets not jump the gun here. I worked with clips pulled into Vegas from the TD10 and in version 10c they port in as SBS. half resolution clips, just like Joe explained. What 10d will give you is full resolution frame packed, the highest recorded video from the TD10. Plus the ability to edit this mode and then render / burn it to a BluRay BD-R. Also, what I saw pulled in from the TD10 looks exactly the same type of video construct as what I am doing with the Bloggie 3D.
> 
> 
> I wish I had the TD10 here and I would create a step by step for you icerat. Then do the same for the 10d Vegas.
> 
> 
> FYI- The Bloggie 3D video is exported to the computer as a SBS 3D clip 1080i 29.97 fps. half resolution.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only trying to figure out where I may have flipped the left and right anaglyph colors in my rendering process, either with Vegas when I created the upload file as a SBS half resolution or in You Tube when I tagged it as 3D. The SBS video of the same clip looks fine on my Sony. There is no left right flip from the original file I used to upload to YouTube so I'm believing it was switched at You Tube.








really hope you get your soon. So you can give me some tips thanks don.


----------



## icerat4

Well i switched the setting 60i to 60p with the fx highest quailty on and it goes back to 60i .Like some kind of a default. I dont like that you have to set up some settings in 2d.Then switch it back to shoot 3d. Why not have the option menu all open in 3d mode.







I wish i knew how much longer until the rest of you guys get yours Because im useless.







But like i did say the stuff i shot with setting fx 60i looks really nice on my tv.


----------



## Don Landis

OK I saw Frank used a Tag to swap the left/right on his YT uplink. Maybe I need to do the same. Finding out how to do this stuff is like a treasure hunt.


icerat- Yeah, me too! There's nothing like hands on to really get into the meat of these tools. Trying to learn this stuff with a display model at a trade show with 30 people crowding you and impatient to touch it too is not the most ideal learning environment. In the classes they zip through the process pretty fast but it.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20382843
> 
> 
> Well i switched the setting 60i to 60p with the fx highest quailty on and it goes back to 60i .Like some kind of a default. I dont like that you have to set up some settings in 2d.Then switch it back to shoot 3d. Why not have the option menu all open in 3d mode.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish i knew how much longer until the rest of you guys get yours Because im useless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But like i did say the stuff i shot with setting fx 60i looks really nice on my tv.



Do you understand that in order to shoot in 3D mode you can only use 60i?

If you want to shoot in 3D then this camera gives you almost no options at all.


----------



## Maxchance




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20380386
> 
> 
> I don't know much about this camcorder at all but I just looked at the online manual and it appears that the 3D can only be played back from the camera.
> 
> Until Sony supplies a method of working with the 3D MVC files this is pretty much a 2D camera as far as I'm concerned.



Can you download the individual files to a drive for future editing?


Thanks.


Still waiting on Sony.... no ship date provided ):


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Maxchance* /forum/post/20382989
> 
> 
> Can you download the individual files to a drive for future editing?
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Still waiting on Sony.... no ship date provided ):



Absolutely.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20382883
> 
> 
> Do you understand that in order to shoot in 3D mode you can only use 60i?
> 
> If you want to shoot in 3D then this camera gives you almost no options at all.



Yes i see that. When i set it to 24p 0r 60p in the 2d setting. As thats where you can only set those. Then switch back to 3d mode. It say 60i on the lcd screen so 60i is default i assume.


----------



## sbg777

Listed as in stock again at Sonystyle.com with an estimated ship date of 05/03/11


Just placed my order, we'll see what happens.


Jim


----------



## icerat4

All i have for software is PMB . I do not have sony vegas. Nor do i plan on getting it.Unless i cant burn my 3d stuff to dvd blu ray for future viewing. I am not a editing guy i have no time for that.As my agaenda is filled with other stuff. i am just a point shot and save guy.So if you guys can guide me a little in my uses i thank you mucho


----------



## geezin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sbg777* /forum/post/20383152
> 
> 
> Listed as in stock again at Sonystyle.com with an estimated ship date of 05/03/11
> 
> 
> Just placed my order, we'll see what happens.
> 
> 
> Jim



Now it shows:


Backordered


Estimated ship date: 05/04/2011


----------



## Don Landis

icerat4- PMB does have a burn to DVD option but that is not for 3D (yet) The only way to put your stuff in 3D on a BD-R that I know of is to use Sony Vegas Pro 10.0d which isn't released yet.


By the way you describe what you do, it seems like you'll either need to just be satisfied connecting your TD10 to the 3DTV or uploading to Youtube what you shot by getting the clips using PMB and save to SBS file. I haven't seen the work flow for You Tube with the TD10 so I'll be learning that myself. All my knowledge with the TD10 is what I saw being done in association with Vegas in the demo classes at NAB.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20383759
> 
> 
> 
> By the way you describe what you do, it seems like you'll either need to just be satisfied connecting your TD10 to the 3DTV or uploading to Youtube what you shot by getting the clips using PMB and save to SBS file.



You seem to be suggesting that it is possible for PMD to convert a MVC 3D file to sbs and send to YouTube.

Is that right?


----------



## sbg777




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geezin* /forum/post/20383716
> 
> 
> Now it shows:
> 
> 
> Backordered
> 
> 
> Estimated ship date: 05/04/2011



That doesn't surprise me at all. It was listed on Saturday as backordered with an estimated ship date of 05/03/2011 for a couple of hours. When I went back to place my order it had changed again to just back ordered.


When I seen today's listing as in stock I jumped on it right away. I just checked my ordered status and it now shows:


Items: 1

Order Status: PROCESSING

Estimated Ship Date: 05/02/2011


I sure hope it ships today, but I'll believe it when it actually happens.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sbg777* /forum/post/20383878
> 
> 
> That doesn't surprise me at all. It was listed on Saturday as backordered with an estimated ship date of 05/03/2011 for a couple of hours. When I went back to place my order it had changed again to just back ordered.
> 
> 
> When I seen today's listing as in stock I jumped on it right away. I just checked my ordered status and it now shows:
> 
> 
> Items: 1
> 
> Order Status: PROCESSING
> 
> Estimated Ship Date: 05/02/2011
> 
> 
> I sure hope it ships today, but I'll believe it when it actually happens.





Mine said that last week. Next thing ya know i got a fed ex tracking number


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20383785
> 
> 
> You seem to be suggesting that it is possible for PMD to convert a MVC 3D file to sbs and send to YouTube.
> 
> Is that right?



Not sure before I see the new PMB software, but yes that is what I'm suggesting. The manual is a bit sketchy on this. It does not appear that one can convert to SBS in camera before exporting. All reference on 3D is for the one file with 2 1080i x 1920 data to be moved. icerat is the only one here who has it and we've been talking off thread and he is not shure what he is looking at. It would seem to me that when you import the 3D video clip in PMB you get something that is not MVC but a half resolution SBS file and should have a choice to save out the MVC file too.

Keep in mind I am on version 3.0 PMB but in that version there is a drop down menu called "Manipulate" here you can take the raw import from the camcorder and make a version for wmv, AVCHD, MPEG2 as I recall. The original file is also reserved. Sony is pretty consistent so I would imagine in this part of PMB for the TD10 they added a 3D section that allows you to make a copy in SBS, Top/Bottom/ Checkerboard, as well as anaglyph. Then you would select what you want from that for Vegas 10c and when 10d comes out you will likely get the option of putting the full raw file on the timeline to edit. Again, this is my best guess since I have not seen the latest PMB. Icerat is reading this so maybe he can have a look. Also, Frank, remember, that Vegas is non destructive so they would not modify the original file. Only source that to make a copy in the modified form. This is how they are able to do so much without rendering in the timeline for real playback. Also, it is noted in the manual that if you have an older version of PMB, you must update to the version that comes with the TD10 or it will not work for all video. This is another clue that the PMB with TD10 is with new features. There is also a warning to completely uninstall old PMB before installing the new one. This warning is for me.


----------



## Maxchance

I'm really beginning to wonder how **legal** or ethical Sony is handling the HDR-TD10 orders. One moment they update your order saying it will "ship" the next day. You go to the Sony Style site (as a non-signed in customer) and it says "In Stock" then it alternates back to "Back Ordered." Well, if they did indeed have cameras 'in stock" why do they keep sending those on the pre-order list "back ordered" notices. I smell a rat and I think they are manipulating data to gain orders.


M.


----------



## icerat4

Well well well lookie at my utube vid now. Yes i downloaded the disk that came with cam Ver 5.6 .I left my older ver in cause the manual said 5.0 or higher. Well me having 5.0 thinking all was ok . Well i uninstalled my 5.0 ver and installed the 5.6 ver and walla . The utube thing came up so this is where i am at this point. Please tell me if you have a good look OR do i need to type in the yt:3d enable=true. and or change the settings in left to right top and bottom etc. I am getting close i think.












http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_PGPam6V7g 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQZhwkBvt6c 






how are these.


----------



## icerat4

This is also what i can download from the new disk ver 5.6



http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/BDUW/


----------



## icerat4

i loaded the software in my other computer and it dosent work humm


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20385768
> 
> 
> Well well well lookie at my utube vid now. Yes i downloaded the disk that came with cam Ver 5.6 .I left my older ver in cause the manual said 5.0 or higher. Well me having 5.0 thinking all was ok . Well i uninstalled my 5.0 ver and installed the 5.6 ver and walla . The utube thing came up so this is where i am at this point. Please tell me if you have a good look OR do i need to type in the yt:3d enable=true. and or change the settings in left to right top and bottom etc. I am getting close i think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_PGPam6V7g
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQZhwkBvt6c
> 
> 
> how are these.



Yes, add the yt3D:enable=true and that will get the 3D option open for us to look at the clip with our choice of formats. May need to add other tags as well but let's start with this one.


These are the tags I have on my You Tube 3D:


yt3d:enable=true

yt3d:aspect=16:9

yt3d:swap=true



The right PMB version did the trick I see.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20386010
> 
> 
> i loaded the software in my other computer and it dosent work humm


 http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/BDUW/ 


You know that link is for Blu Ray burning plugin for PMB. It is not PMB by itself. It is just for 2D AVCHD burning of BD-R. You also need a Blue Ray Burner.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20383973
> 
> 
> Mine said that last week. Next thing ya know i got a fed ex tracking number



WE really need two separate threads here. One for those awaiting their orders and another for those who are trying to make all the bells and whistles work.


Has anyone been provided a shipping date yet by Amazon direct or for that matter by anyone other than Sony Style?


----------



## icerat4

ok hows this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_PGPam6V7g 




iput this in yt3d:aspect=16:9 did that work





or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_PGPam6V7g 

yt3d:swap=true


----------



## icerat4

If those didnt work cause i see no 3d option on the right lower of the vid. I downloaded this one don. And all 3 of the tags were listed in the tag box this time and now i see you have the 3d option up. See if this is the winner.What i did was just typed yt3d:enable=true and the rest were automatically put in by utube .When the vid cam up.I did not have to type in all those yt3d deals just the first yt3d:enable=true. Let me know if were there or just getting closer.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ej8dAGH4Mc


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20386934
> 
> 
> ok hows this
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_PGPam6V7g
> 
> 
> iput this in yt3d:aspect=16:9 did that work
> 
> 
> or this
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_PGPam6V7g
> 
> yt3d:swap=true



You forgot the most important one- You need to tell it to make it 3D first.


yt3d:enable=true


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20387131
> 
> 
> If those didnt work cause i see no 3d option on the right lower of the vid. I downloaded this one don. And all 3 of the tags were listed in the tag box this time and now i see you have the 3d option up. See if this is the winner.What i did was just typed yt3d:enable=true and the rest were automatically put in by utube .When the vid cam up.I did not have to type in all those yt3d deals just the first yt3d:enable=true. Let me know if were there or just getting closer.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ej8dAGH4Mc




OK you got it!


From now on do everything like that and it will work!










Suggest you delete your garbage test failures now.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20387324
> 
> 
> OK you got it!
> 
> 
> From now on do everything like that and it will work!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suggest you delete your garbage test failures now.































































Hey Hey. great. Thanks alot Don


----------



## icerat4

Ok now that i have the utube deal down. Here is the next question. The 3d stuff i shot.When importing to PMB Can i burn it to a dvd. for future viewing. I really dont care at this point if its the highest rez for now. Just somewheres to save instead of a memory card or internal memory. Cause at some point i will run out of internal and buying memory card will get expensive.So if i am not looking at these so called mvc files the highest rez file. Will it do avchd files and be happy with that at this point. And just wait til sony vegas 10d arives.And play those avchd dvd in my ps3 to view .


----------



## Don Landis

At this point in time I know of no way to make a BluRay 3D DVD. The tool you saw as a plugin for PMB to burn Blue Ray is for 2D files only. Soon, Vegas 10.0d will have this capability but you said you did not want to get Vegas.


If I were you, I would buy cheap USB hard drives, format them for FAT32 and then connect them to your Sony TD10 and copy your clips from the camera over. These will be stored in the MVC format in raw 3D. Some day there will be other tools for making a 3D Bluray BD-R and you will have all your stuff archived on a large hard drive. The details are in your TD10 manual. If you wish to watch your clips on the hard drive you'll need to connect the drive to the camera and copy them back to space in the camera, connect your hdmi cable and watch, playing from the camera.


----------



## icerat4

Wont the avchd files i see be able to burn to a plain old dvd rw. Dont get me wrong don i will pay for the vegas 10d no problem after all i only paid 850 for the cam . so it even out .And with you to help me out







no worries right.












Here is a thread i started in 3d content some hockey i shot and some car i painted enjoy.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1332757


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20388184
> 
> 
> At this point in time I know of no way to make a BluRay 3D DVD. The tool you saw as a plugin for PMB to burn Blue Ray is for 2D files only. Soon, Vegas 10.0d will have this capability but you said you did not want to get Vegas.
> 
> 
> If I were you, I would buy cheap USB hard drives, format them for FAT32 and then connect them to your Sony TD10 and copy your clips from the camera over. These will be stored in the MVC format in raw 3D. Some day there will be other tools for making a 3D Bluray BD-R and you will have all your stuff archived on a large hard drive. The details are in your TD10 manual. If you wish to watch your clips on the hard drive you'll need to connect the drive to the camera and copy them back to space in the camera, connect your hdmi cable and watch, playing from the camera.



I assume the "space" in the camera includes onto a SD card inserted into the camera? That would suggest that one could just record all one's 3D content directly onto the camera inserted SD card and then just take out and put back the cards when one wanted to view same? I see SD cards have been dropping in price like Navy Seals sliding down ropes from helicopters.


----------



## rajibo

Hey Guys,


Well, I just took the plunge and ordered this camera. Unfortunately, it was In Stock when I started the order process and Backordered again by the time I completed it.










I look forward to learning and sharing with you in the near future.


Until then....


----------



## geezin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20388184
> 
> 
> At this point in time I know of no way to make a BluRay 3D DVD. The tool you saw as a plugin for PMB to burn Blue Ray is for 2D files only. Soon, Vegas 10.0d will have this capability but you said you did not want to get Vegas.
> 
> 
> If I were you, I would buy cheap USB hard drives, format them for FAT32 and then connect them to your Sony TD10 and copy your clips from the camera over. These will be stored in the MVC format in raw 3D. Some day there will be other tools for making a 3D Bluray BD-R and you will have all your stuff archived on a large hard drive. The details are in your TD10 manual. If you wish to watch your clips on the hard drive you'll need to connect the drive to the camera and copy them back to space in the camera, connect your hdmi cable and watch, playing from the camera.



Don, an excellent suggestion. This is what I plan to do.


Since you can use up to a 2TB external HD, you can save and wait for an editing program that you like and are comfortable with.


----------



## sbg777




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajibo* /forum/post/20389223
> 
> 
> Hey Guys,
> 
> 
> Well, I just took the plunge and ordered this camera. Unfortunately, it was In Stock when I started the order process and Backordered again by the time I completed it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I look forward to learning and sharing with you in the near future.
> 
> 
> Until then....



Not sure what's going on with Sonystyle.com. I ordered mine yesterday morning when it was listed as "In Stock" with an estimated ship date of 05/03/11. About an hour later it was once again listed as "Back Ordered".


My order showed "Processing" with an estimated ship date of 05/03/11 - then changed to "Processing" with an estimated ship date of 05/02/11.


Today it still shows as "Processing" with an estimated ship date of 05/02/11. I also ordered another item at the same time and it is showing "Ready To Ship" with a date of 05/03/11.


rajibo, does your order show as "Processing" or "Back Ordered"?


----------



## rajibo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sbg777* /forum/post/20389494
> 
> 
> 
> rajibo, does your order show as "Processing" or "Back Ordered"?



I look at it now and it shows 'Processing' with a ship date of 5/3/11. Right after I ordered it, it said 'Backordered'. The main page for the camera still has it listed as backordered.


I hope it's not those Sony hackers trying to be funny while stealing our credit card info....


----------



## Don Landis

The web site also has a reference to stores that currently have stock but while Sony claims they do, the stores I called on have not received anything yet.


----------



## icerat4

Don Check this out. Let me know.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnGIScAQg3o


----------



## Maxchance

I've just about had it with Sony.


They apparently do not understand the consumer protection laws in New York. Jerking people around by listing items as "In Stock," just to accumulate more orders is not right. I'm about ready to go to the Attorney General's Consumer Complaints office and file a report.


I got the guy on the other end of the phone this afternoon to admit they have not had a shipment since the last one. Some cameras were diverted to "other countries." No one there knows when a shipment will arrive, or how many cameras will be received. Apparently, a ton of people have bailed out of Amazon, B&H, etc., and switched their orders to Sony.


I changed my vacation a week to receive the camera which I was told would be shipped out last week.


Lets see if the cameras suddenly show up tomorrow after a complaint is filed.


What a load.


M.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maxchance* /forum/post/20390208
> 
> 
> i've just about had it with sony.
> 
> 
> They apparently do not understand the consumer protection laws in new york. Jerking people around by listing items as "in stock," just to accumulate more orders is not right. I'm about ready to go to the attorney general's consumer complaints office and file a report.
> 
> 
> I got the guy on the other end of the phone this afternoon to admit they have not had a shipment since the last one. Some cameras were diverted to "other countries." no one there knows when a shipment will arrive, or how many cameras will be received. Apparently, a ton of people have bailed out of amazon, b&h, etc., and switched their orders to sony.
> 
> 
> I changed my vacation a week to receive the camera which i was told would be shipped out last week.
> 
> 
> Lets see if the cameras suddenly show up tomorrow after a complaint is filed.
> 
> 
> What a load.
> 
> 
> M.





i hate peggy:d:d


----------



## icerat4

Hey don i am looking at this one to hold my vids. What do ya think.



http://store.westerndigital.com/stor...catid.13093000


----------



## sbg777

Got the following email form sonystyle.com this morning:

*Thank you for your recent Sony purchase.


We would like to inform you we are experiencing a delay with your Sony order. The following item HDRTD10 has been rescheduled to ship on 05/06/2011.


Tracking information will be sent via email once your order ships. This number will also be available within the order history in your Sony Account. If you are unable to continue waiting we encourage you to visit our website or call 1-877-865-7669 to work with a Sony sales representative to find an alternative product that will meet your needs.

*


I’ll really be surprised if it actually ships on the 6th.


----------



## Maxchance

I would not be in any hurry....... just in from Sony


Backordered


Estimated ship date: 05/16/2011


----------



## rajibo

My order still says shipping on the 4th and I havent received an email yet. I ordered through my company's employee purchase plan so I dont know if they handle those orders differently.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sbg777* /forum/post/20391815
> 
> 
> Got the following email form sonystyle.com this morning:
> 
> *Thank you for your recent Sony purchase.
> 
> 
> We would like to inform you we are experiencing a delay with your Sony order. The following item HDRTD10 has been rescheduled to ship on 05/06/2011.
> 
> 
> Tracking information will be sent via email once your order ships. This number will also be available within the order history in your Sony Account. If you are unable to continue waiting we encourage you to visit our website or call 1-877-865-7669 to work with a Sony sales representative to find an alternative product that will meet your needs.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> I’ll really be surprised if it actually ships on the 6th.



OK- I checked back in the thread and you placed your order on the 2nd and are getting good feedback. I think I will place one with Sony today and see how that tracks. Note- my original order was placed on the 15th of April with Amazon and they have no idea when stock will come in. I will keep that one on order and if I get two, then I'll see if anyone here wants it or I'll just return it as Amazon has an excellent return policy.



Done! I also got the estimated ship date as 5/16 after I processed the order. Just got another e-mail and it too said the ship date would be 5/16.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20392183
> 
> 
> OK- I checked back in the thread and you placed your order on the 2nd and are getting good feedback. I think I will place one with Sony today and see how that tracks. Note- my original order was placed on the 15th of April with Amazon and they have no idea when stock will come in. I will keep that one on order and if I get two, then I'll see if anyone here wants it or I'll just return it as Amazon has an excellent return policy.
> 
> 
> 
> Done! I also got the estimated ship date as 5/16 after I processed the order. Just got another e-mail and it too said the ship date would be 5/16.



Wow, 5/16 now. It looks like it will be a footrace at a snails pace to see who ships first, Style or Amazon. Should the Amazon order go out first can you easily cancel the SonyStyle order?


----------



## Maxchance

Sony has made it very clear that all back orders with them will be filled first. I have no reason not to believe this as it's come from multiple sources including Sony, Style Stores and B&H Photo. This may not be true with other product releases, but seems to be true this time.


Max


----------



## Don Landis

Now we know what will take to get product into the stores, don't we?


When the stores begin to price compete, aka street price we will see thenm get inventory. Right now there is no incentive for the consumer to buy from a second in line to deliver. When the stores offer a street discount as is usually the case with consumer electronics, then people will be canceling the Sony orders and place with the street priced store. No more Back orders and now the stores will get shipments so they can deliver.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Maxchance* /forum/post/20393635
> 
> 
> Sony has made it very clear that all back orders with them will be filled first. I have no reason not to believe this as it's come from multiple sources including Sony, Style Stores and B&H Photo. This may not be true with other product releases, but seems to be true this time.
> 
> 
> Max





Max hang tight. You will be rewarded when you get it. Trust me its very very nice. I placed my ordered right after ces show. I have no idea how i got mine so soon. But rest assured when you get it your wait will be well worth it.







I just bought a 1 tb external hd to save the stuff i shoot until a player comes out to burn blurays in 3d


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20393665
> 
> 
> Now we know what will take to get product into the stores, don't we?
> 
> 
> When the stores begin to price compete, aka street price we will see thenm get inventory. Right now there is no incentive for the consumer to buy from a second in line to deliver. When the stores offer a street discount as is usually the case with consumer electronics, then people will be canceling the Sony orders and place with the street priced store. No more Back orders and now the stores will get shipments so they can deliver.



Of course the order site for SonyStyle says orders can only be cancelled in the first hour. Anyone know if you would have to go ahead with the order and the hastle of returning it should an alternative source (i.e. Amazon) become available for the camera prior to the current SonyStyle projected ship date of May16th?


----------



## Don Landis

IIRC Mastercard / VISA rules dictate that a full refund must be given if you can't deliver the merchandise within 48 hours of charging your card if the card owner requests, regardless of your store policy of no refunds. The work around was to not actually charge the card but to put a credit hold on the amount until you could ship. I used to have a merchant account so that is my source for the information. Delivery follows ICC rules which is delivery to a carrier, not necessarily the customer.


----------



## Maxchance




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20393718
> 
> 
> Of course the order site for SonyStyle says orders can only be cancelled in the first hour. Anyone know if you would have to go ahead with the order and the hastle of returning it should an alternative source (i.e. Amazon) become available for the camera prior to the current SonyStyle projected ship date of May16th?



Yes, they will refund. Not sure if it's this special circumstance or their overall policy. My business partner ordered one but got fed up with waiting and went with a GoPro 3D setup for the next few weeks and he'll reorder when there are actually cameras in stock.


Max


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20393864
> 
> 
> IIRC Mastercard / VISA rules dictate that a full refund must be given if you can't deliver the merchandise within 48 hours of charging your card if the card owner requests, regardless of your store policy of no refunds. The work around was to not actually charge the card but to put a credit hold on the amount until you could ship. I used to have a merchant account so that is my source for the information. Delivery follows ICC rules which is delivery to a carrier, not necessarily the customer.



Had the order been placed via AMEX would same rules apply? By the way my order status (pending) actually shows an earlier estimated ship date than that on the order page. Of course, I have not received a confirming email yet so that may be moot. Curious too if paying the extra $20 for expedited shipping, as I did, has any effect on when the order goes out?


----------



## Maxchance




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20394074
> 
> 
> Had the order been placed via AMEX would same rules apply? By the way my order status (pending) actually shows an earlier estimated ship date than that on the order page. Of course, I have not received a confirming email yet so that may be moot. Curious too if paying the extra $20 for expedited shipping, as I did, has any effect on when the order goes out?



My original ship date was April 15. The order page says "shipping date of April 29."


Go figure.


M.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Had the order been placed via AMEX would same rules apply?



Pretty sure but have had no personal experience with them but I believe all the CC rules are universal, some are Federal law and others are just card merchant rules. Understand that returns for refund is not the same thing.


Oh, I forgot. I did have a case with an AMEX a few years ago where a client tried to claim I never delivered on a service. He had me put his 30 second commercial on DirecTV and I did place the ad but he claimed he never got any calls. He tried to claim non delivery and I charged his card. I had to show proof that I delivered the commercial to DirecTV and that they ran the commercial. Submitted the logs and was off the hook. The funniest aspect of this claim was who the client was. Do you recall those commercials for companies who offered a service to show you how to not pay your credit card bill and get away with it? I should have known better than to accept a CC for work that I did for him. LOL! Anyway, the fact is, AMEX made me show proof that I delivered services or I wasn't going to get paid.


----------



## Maxchance

Just got off the phone with Sony. Delivery date on ALL orders now at May 16+. The customer service person did not know why there has been another big delay. Yes, you can cancel the order since they are in "back ordered" mode. Address change is only allowed if it's in the same zip code.


Max


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Maxchance* /forum/post/20394198
> 
> 
> Just got off the phone with Sony. Delivery date on ALL orders now at May 16+. The customer service person did not know why there has been another big delay. Yes, you can cancel the order since they are in "back ordered" mode. Address change is only allowed if it's in the same zip code.
> 
> 
> Max



Thanks for the update but do you question whether these "customer service" people are even with Sony or just part of some fulfilment contractor who really are only privy to limited information?


----------



## icerat4

Hey i have a question. I bought a 1tb my passport essntial se hd. I have to format the drive to fat32 correct. So i have done that via computer so now the hd is fat32. I see on page 47 of the manual that it say the following.Format the external device using the camcorder before use. The format screen appears when an external media deviceis connected to your camcorder. Make sure that important data has not previously been saved on theexternal media device before you format it using the camcorder. See page 47 my question is after i format this external via computer do i have to do it again via camcorder. why would i have to format the external hd twice so it seems.


----------



## sbg777




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20396272
> 
> 
> See page 47 my question is after i format this external via computer do i have to do it again via camcorder. why would i have to format the external hd twice so it seems.



I would just hook it up to the camera and see if it works. If it does you're good to go, if not try formatting it with the camera.


Jim


----------



## icerat4

ok Formatted the external hd to fat32 via computer and went to pull vids off the pmb.Guess what all the files are messed up not mvc at all.Here is what i did wrong . On page 47 .Format the external device using the CAMCORDER before use. The format screen appears when an external media deviceis connected to your camcorder. Make sure that important data has not previously been saved on theexternal media device before you format it using the camcorder. Why is IT that you have to do it that way frist. I didnt think formatting it before would matter but i guess it does for some reason. The screen on the cam show USB CABLE HAS BEEN DISSCONNECTED

External media maybe damaged

Press the x button to end.



So new sony camcorder if saving your stuff to external HD You must set it up via CAMCORDER FIRST . I will reformat the HD BACK to original and see if that will work . If not there went 100 bucks for the learning curve. I really dont understand why if the External hd is formatted in fat 32 via computer first .Theres a problem . Anyone on this


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sbg777* /forum/post/20397272
> 
> 
> I would just hook it up to the camera and see if it works. If it does you're good to go, if not try formatting it with the camera.
> 
> 
> Jim




Nope read post above. I will reformat the External HD BACK to original like when i bought it .And the hook it up via what the book says. And see if that works.Man everything is a learning curve. I guess next time read the instruction book first huh


----------



## Don Landis

icerat4-


You are mixing everything up now. So lets get it done right...


1. You buy an external hard drive.

2. You connect it to the camcorder via USB.

3. You see the camcorder screen that says to format the drive. DO THAT!

4. Now select the 3D clips you wish to copy to the Hard drive. Use "Direct Copy" to copy the clips to the hard drive. "Copy" transfers the clips from internal memory to the SD card.


DO NOT disconnect the drive before you are done. DO NOT USE PMB in this process. PMB is for transferring your video and stills *to your computer from your camcorder.
*


When you connect the new hard drive to your camcorder the copy process has nothing to do with PMB.


Rescue for errors- Should you ever get a message that the files on the camcorder are corrupt it may just be the File allocation table that is messed up. In the menus of the Sony Camcorder they have a tool that allows you to reconstruct the File Allocation Table to salvage the video. This often happens when you lose power during a copy process or you disconnect the USB cable before the copy process is complete. In the camcorder's menus select "Repair Img. DB F" see page 56 in the manual.



> Quote:
> Why is IT that you have to do it that way frist.



?


In addition to doing a hard drive format the camcorder also will set up a standard media folder structure for the files to be stored. such as \\DCIM\\


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20397614
> 
> 
> 
> DO NOT disconnect the drive before you are done. DO NOT USE PMB in this process. PMB is for transferring your video and stills *to your computer from your camcorder.
> *





O i thought you could import the files from the cam to pmb .Then take the vids on pmb and store them in the external HD. in raw form mvc. So pmb is useless for transfering 3d movies in the correct mvc files correct.As it seem. So for full rez mvc files .Direct from can to external Hd is the only way to get the right files for future blu ray burn. If you tell me this is wrong i am going to call you .Because then i know i am slow and stupid.Let me ask you this also .When i watch my vids in 3d via my tv. Are those mvc files or is that half the rez i should be getting more once i can put these raw mvc files onto a blu ray .Which will be sometime later.


----------



## NorthTV

Quote:

Originally Posted by *NorthTV* 
I assume the "space" in the camera includes onto a SD card inserted into the camera? That would suggest that one could just record all one's 3D content directly onto the camera inserted SD card and then just take out and put back the cards when one wanted to view same? I see SD cards have been dropping in price like Navy Seals sliding down ropes from helicopters.


Is this a viable option to dumping one's files onto an external hard drive? Alternatively would transfer to a thumb drive work equally well for storage of full 3D files?


----------



## sharpnicle

i am expecting my sony this afternoon(china) so exited, despite i will buy it § 220 more without manufactureer's warrantee or any drawingback policy, i still enjoy the purchase

thank you all for all the info shared here, and i will report here my feeling about this cam asap


----------



## Don Landis

NorthTV- The TD10 has an option for transferring 3D files to flash media. You stick an SD card into the camcorder and in the copy process, you select copy and it will copy the 3D file to the SD card. Now you can pull the card out stick it in your computer's SD slot and use the file. If you pull it in with PMB you will be converting it or you can pull it in to Vegas 10D and use it as the full res version as 10 will be able to work with that format. I don't know what other purpose that file serves at this time.


As I told icerat4 over the phone- the TD10 only saves what you shoot in 3D in one file format. There are no options as you get with 2D. When you want to work with 3D from the HDR TD10 in Vegas 10C you will need to import the file from the camcorder to the computer hard drive using PMB. Later on when 10D is released you'll be able to work with the file direct without using PMB although there may be other advantages such as meta data, thumbnails etc in using PMB. I'll need to wait and see what those options are, if any, after I get the camcorder and Vegas 10D here.


The only problem I see with the thumb drive is the connection. I think if you formatted the thumb drive with FAT32 and had the right folder structure it should work but until I try it, all best are not on the table. I have the necessary adapters here to try a thumb drive but we'll have to wait and see.

Right now, for 3D files the USB hard drive is what we know works. Not only is it in the manual, icerat4 has now done it successfully while we were on the phone. He also demonstrated that the external hard drive with copied files from the TD10 does not erase the original when copied, and the drive can then be plugged into the computer and those files seen and imported using PMB.


----------



## Don Landis

Quote:

Originally Posted by *icerat4* 
O i thought you could import the files from the cam to pmb .Then take the vids on pmb and store them in the external HD. in raw form mvc. So pmb is useless for transfering 3d movies in the correct mvc files correct.As it seem. So for full rez mvc files .Direct from can to external Hd is the only way to get the right files for future blu ray burn. If you tell me this is wrong i am going to call you .Because then i know i am slow and stupid.Let me ask you this also .When i watch my vids in 3d via my tv. Are those mvc files or is that half the rez i should be getting more once i can put these raw mvc files onto a blu ray .Which will be sometime later.
Most of this is after we went through this over the phone but one comment is that the raw files on your TD10 will not work as they are for making a playable Blue Ray. You will need to use appropriate software to generate the right file structure and associated files in order to play your 3D from a BD. This will be out in Vegas Pro 10D.


----------



## Don Landis

Quote:

Originally Posted by *sharpnicle* 
i am expecting my sony this afternoon(china) so exited, despite i will buy it § 220 more without manufactureer's warrantee or any drawingback policy, i still enjoy the purchase

thank you all for all the info shared here, and i will report here my feeling about this cam asap


Keep us informed. Where did you order from and when?


----------



## sharpnicle

i will buy it from a local dealer in beijing who is one of my friends, i happened to know that he had some in stock last night, so a deal was made right after a call, the price he offered is much higher than amazon us but you know that's common here

besides that, this friend told me that severl dealers in zhongguancun(known as china's silicon valley) had recieved this cam, selling at a very high price of course


----------



## icerat4

Thanks Don.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20398999
> 
> 
> NorthTV- The TD10 has an option for transferring 3D files to flash media. You stick an SD card into the camcorder and in the copy process, you select copy and it will copy the 3D file to the SD card. Now you can pull the card out stick it in your computer's SD slot and use the file. If you pull it in with PMB you will be converting it or you can pull it in to Vegas 10D and use it as the full res version as 10 will be able to work with that format. I don't know what other purpose that file serves at this time.
> 
> 
> As I told icerat4 over the phone- the TD10 only saves what you shoot in 3D in one file format. There are no options as you get with 2D. When you want to work with 3D from the HDR TD10 in Vegas 10C you will need to import the file from the camcorder to the computer hard drive using PMB. Later on when 10D is released you'll be able to work with the file direct without using PMB although there may be other advantages such as meta data, thumbnails etc in using PMB. I'll need to wait and see what those options are, if any, after I get the camcorder and Vegas .




















yes sir.


----------



## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sharpnicle* /forum/post/20398979
> 
> 
> i am expecting my sony this afternoon(china) so exited, despite i will buy it § 220 more without manufactureer's warrantee or any drawingback policy, i still enjoy the purchase
> 
> thank you all for all the info shared here, and i will report here my feeling about this cam asap



Got mine, although not as much as I had expected, it's imo more sleek than JVC.


Screen is really big, and liveview is clear too, and I think it plays par with the one on Fuji W3.


first impression is positive, when I get home, I will be able to test more functions.


oh, one more thing, when I slide the lenses to the max tele stop, I still see divergenced picture from the liveview screen, but for sure not as much as the max wide stop, so I think, it maybe enough to set the interaxial to 20+ mm, because at that distance we can barely see any 3D ourselves either


----------



## icerat4

Hey don the files that were set up on the initial setup are as followed.In these 3 seprate folders





AVCHD , DCIM . PRIVATE,

BDMV 100MSDCF SONY

CLIPNF

PLAYLIST

STREAM

INDEXBDM

MOVIESOBJ.BDM





Above are the folders that were created when first hooking up the external Hd.Only when i click on avchd then Stream i see the movies i shot in mts sitting there. Either DCIM AND SONY Have nothing there.When i open those folders Wonder what the sony private is? Any ways thats what shows up on my computer when hooking the external hd to my computer and going into the External Hd.


----------



## icerat4

Here Don figured you would like this one.


























http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RGOyuHZ5QM


----------



## Don Landis

Yours and my Daisy are indeed close enough to be twins but they are 2 months apart in age.


I'm in the Sony (Soon Only Not Yet ) waiting list or ever changing e-mails now. Got one today stating that my ship date has been changed from 5/16 to 5/13


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sharpnicle* /forum/post/20400377
> 
> 
> Got mine, although not as much as I had expected, it's imo more sleek than JVC.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> oh, one more thing, when I slide the lenses to the max tele stop, I still see divergenced picture from the liveview screen, but for sure not as much as the max wide stop, so I think, it maybe enough to set the interaxial to 20+ mm, because at that distance we can barely see any 3D ourselves either



Are you suggesting that there is some type of shifting of the interaxial distance when one zooms the camera? Something within the lenses actually redirectling angles or some type of software trickery?


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20402051
> 
> 
> . ..
> 
> 
> I'm in the Sony (Soon Only Not Yet ) waiting list or ever changing e-mails now. Got one today stating that my ship date has been changed from 5/16 to 5/13



Did you also get an offer to upgrade your shipping service or had you already paid for fastest shipping available?


----------



## morphioussss

OK, Vegas 10d is now posted for Download at Sony, who is going to be the first to test it and give a full review 


-D


----------



## icerat4

Not me i have no clue of what to do.


----------



## sharpnicle

Quote:

Originally Posted by *NorthTV*
Are you suggesting that there is some type of shifting of the interaxial distance when one zooms the camera? Something within the lenses actually redirectling angles or some type of software trickery?
not that, the interaxial distance of td10 is fixed as some 20+ mm.









i said that because people had a disscussion on the effects brought by different ID settings, i was suggesting that sony's setting may be ok for casual customers like me


----------



## Don Landis

Quote:

Originally Posted by *morphioussss* 
OK, Vegas 10d is now posted for Download at Sony, who is going to be the first to test it and give a full review 


-D
Wrong thread. Work is being done and reported.


----------



## Richard Adams

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
I'm in the Sony (Soon Only Not Yet ) waiting list or ever changing e-mails now. Got one today stating that my ship date has been changed from 5/16 to 5/13
You're lucky. After getting both a written emailed commitment and a verbal commitment that it would ship this week, I got no email updates, and my order status date is in limbo. It seems sonystyle forgot about me. I am on a deadline here.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
Wrong thread. Work is being done and reported.
Do you mean the Sony Vegas/MVC editing thread? No new posts there. If not, which thread are you talking about?


----------



## morphioussss

Well this is correct thread as all I care about is how it works with the HDR-TD10 sitting here on my desk 


I installed the trial yesterday, but yet to have time to play with it yet.


-D


----------



## sharpnicle

update:

Generally positive after 2 days trial, but started to think that jvc may be more capable under low light condition, the clips i took at night with normal electrical lighting show up visible noise and artificial noise reduction.


I tried to look for iso setting or anything like that, but under 3d recording categary, there seems to be only an xvid color triger. hope sony provide more adjustment by fireware updates.


A new finding, maybe not new to you, is that when 3d recording, i can manually set the 3d depth, like what i saw was talked about in the JVC thread.


It is only available at 3d recording mode, not at playback, and from the liveview i can see close items get more divergenced than further ones, so i assume that it may equal the effect that a bigger interactial can bring up. maybe it is somewhat daydream, but as i imagin, if 2 picturs, one from left angle and the other from right angle, have been achieved, no matter how they are deviated, sony can stretch the images like above while not just set them apart more, if it's true, then a bit smaller interaxual may not be a huge problem, and that explains panasonic's 10mm aparted lens setting well, i read several reviews on pany's tm series, and i saw few complained about it's 3d effect while the image resolution is truly a big thing.


----------



## cavitating




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sharpnicle* /forum/post/20408198
> 
> 
> update:
> 
> Generally positive after 2 days trial, but started to think that jvc may be more capable under low light condition, the clips i took at night with normal electrical lighting show up visible noise and artificial noise reduction.



So what happens with the noise when viewed in 3D? With two sensors, the noise has got to be random 2D noise, right? Does it reduce the 3D effect?


----------



## Don Landis

sharpnicle:


> Quote:
> then a bit smaller interaxual may not be a huge problem, and that explains panasonic's 10mm aparted lens setting well, i read several reviews on pany's tm series, and i saw few complained about it's 3d effect while the image resolution is truly a big thing.



Panasonic uses a wider IA due to physical lens diameter and inability to cram them closer. This wider distance limits the closest point of stereo convergence, however it also extends the scene object separation for more distant objects. If one uses a fixed IA that is wide and tries to shoot something passing through the minimum convergence point for the widest lens angle, the object will diverge and you will see separation.

Generally speaking the minimum shooting convergence distance for camcorders with a 1-1.5" IA will be good to 2-3 ft. at 35mm.

If you are planning to do large distant shooting such as at sporting events then a camera like the Panasonic would be better suited. If you shoot mostly at distances between 2-15 ft then you will want good stereo quality in that range and the Sony and JVC are better suited. Differentiating between a 1.25" and a 1.33" IA is inconsequential and academically ignorant in my opinion from a shooter's perspective. Only interesting from a physics discussion.










FWIW- the IA on the Bloggie 3D is only .75" The 3D quality I get is phenomenal range of convergence between 1' and 30 ft. It looks quite natural from what I have seen. However according to the math it should be very limited beyond 12 ft. I see good stereo of objects at close of 10 ft. 50 ft and 200 ft. But not much stereo between objects of 20' and 40 ft' It's really a relative view. The Sony TD10 would see more than the Bloggie3D and the Panasonic would see the most separation in that distance range.


----------



## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavitating* /forum/post/20414495
> 
> 
> So what happens with the noise when viewed in 3D? With two sensors, the noise has got to be random 2D noise, right? Does it reduce the 3D effect?



It has no impact on the 3D effect, which I thought only affected by parallax. and both autofocus and auto-parallax function well


Although I criticised a bit on its low light performance, the result of the TD10 is not bad at all, as a comparison, it's cleaner than my Nikon D200 with an F2.8 lens can do in a same situation, I was wishing it to be better.


I still can't test how noise of two sensors related (no big 3d display other than td10 itself), but I doubt if they occur at a same position, random like you said may be the most possible


----------



## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20414788
> 
> 
> Panasonic uses a wider IA due to physical lens diameter and inability to cram them closer.



It seems that you are talking about the pro model of panasonic, right?


I can't agree more that TD10 accommodates my needs well, as I hardly will film stuff other than my upcoming child's palyarounds


----------



## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20402079
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting that there is some type of shifting of the interaxial distance when one zooms the camera? Something within the lenses actually redirectling angles *or some type of software trickery*?



now I really think there is some software trickery when I adjust the 3D depth at 3d recording mode.


hope another one will check this and correct me if I over trusted Sony


----------



## Don Landis

It's all done in software. The mechanics are just focus, zoom and iris. Everything else is software.



Oh, I almost forgot- My TD10 is to be shipped to me this week and B&H is currently saying they have stock too. So, if anyone is serious about buying the TD10 I think your wait is over.


----------



## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20415082
> 
> 
> It's all done in software. The mechanics are just focus, zoom and iris. Everything else is software.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I almost forgot- My TD10 is to be shipped to me this week and B&H is currently saying they have stock too. So, if anyone is serious about buying the TD10 I think your wait is over.



Congratulations, when you guys get your Td10, you can teach me more on how to handle this interesting gadget.


first, which 3D tv will mostly feed the frame-packed interlace signal from the td10?


samsung? sony? panasonic?


lcd? plasma?


I am a panasonic 2d plasma owner, but the compatibility with TD10 will be the top proirity now


----------



## TonyW79SFV

I actually placed an order on B&H earlier today so that I could pick and choose who will get it first and B&H still had the disclaimer of fulfilling orders when they come in; and now, as you mentioned Don, it says in stock. I checked my status on an order I only placed today and the order was sent to warehouse. Oh, I can't wait! I've been toying with the MHS-FS3 for a week already too.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sharpnicle* /forum/post/20415258
> 
> 
> Congratulations, when you guys get your Td10, you can teach me more on how to handle this interesting gadget.
> 
> 
> first, which 3D tv will mostly feed the frame-packed interlace signal from the td10?
> 
> 
> samsung? sony? panasonic?
> 
> 
> lcd? plasma?
> 
> 
> I am a panasonic 2d plasma owner, but the compatibility with TD10 will be the top proirity now



Any of the new 3D TVs should be compatible, but I like plasma better than LCD because in my experience they ghost less with 3D content.


----------



## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/20415286
> 
> 
> Any of the new 3D TVs should be compatible, but I like plasma better than LCD because in my experience they ghost less with 3D content.



Thanks, I may stick to panasonic TV then.




Frank, I saw you once said in your signature something about checkerboard 3D singal support, looks like panasonic may lack of such feature, does this affect much concerning TD10(or JVC TD1)? and what kind of device use checkerboard output then the panasonic will surely be uncapable of dealing with?


----------



## Don Landis

sharpnicle- I've seen many and I agree Panasonic makes an excellent Plasma. Personally, I prefer my Sony VW90ES. However for the edit room, I'm torn between an LG passive at half resolution and a LCD LED active glasses. Whoever gets me an under 30" screen first at a decent low price will get my business. All I really need is a monitor to check for occlusion and depth placement so I'm thinking something more comfortable with passive glasses will outweigh PQ.


The checkerboard issue is important to Frank because his needs are quite special. With Checkerboard he can open up different windows of 3D. Other formats do not support that. 99.999% of everyone else doesn't care about that either. Most just want full screen high quality 3D of one program at a time.


----------



## sbg777




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20415082
> 
> 
> Oh, I almost forgot- My TD10 is to be shipped to me this week and B&H is currently saying they have stock too. So, if anyone is serious about buying the TD10 I think your wait is over.



Sonystyle.com is showing them in stock again with a ship date of 05/11/11


My order is still listed as processing with an estimated ship date of 5/05/11


My fingers are crossed that I'll have it by this weekend.


-Jim


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20415791
> 
> 
> 
> The checkerboard issue is important to Frank because his needs are quite special. With Checkerboard he can open up different windows of 3D. Other formats do not support that. 99.999% of everyone else doesn't care about that either. Most just want full screen high quality 3D of one program at a time.



A little off topic but since you brought it up:









99.999 percent of the public doesn't care about it because they don't know about it.









The percentage of people who know and care about it who have actually seen how I use it is 100%.


----------



## Don Landis

sharpnicle brought it up!


Can't be 100% because I know about it and don't care. But I do care that you will be happy so I'll vote for it if it ever comes to that.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20416376
> 
> 
> sharpnicle brought it up!
> 
> 
> Can't be 100% because I know about it and don't care. But I do care that you will be happy so I'll vote for it if it ever comes to that.



You don't count cause you haven't seen it for yourself.









Seeing is believing. It's still one hundred percent!


----------



## Frank

Once more off topic and I'm done.

One of the people I showed this to was so excited about it he wanted to call a local TV reporter about it.

I thought about and said no because I knew he wouldn't be able to explain it at all on television.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sbg777* /forum/post/20415908
> 
> 
> Sonystyle.com is showing them in stock again with a ship date of 05/11/11
> 
> 
> My order is still listed as processing with an estimated ship date of 5/05/11
> 
> 
> My fingers are crossed that I'll have it by this weekend.
> 
> 
> -Jim



Actually I just got a "your order is delayed again" email today from SonyStyle. However, they are still "promising" a shipping date by the end of the week.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TonyW79SFV* /forum/post/20415261
> 
> 
> I actually placed an order on B&H earlier today so that I could pick and choose who will get it first and B&H still had the disclaimer of fulfilling orders when they come in; and now, as you mentioned Don, it says in stock. I checked my status on an order I only placed today and the order was sent to warehouse. Oh, I can't wait! I've been toying with the MHS-FS3 for a week already too.




"Sent to warehouse?" Is that B&H speak for drop shipping? I would have expected B&H to actually have items in their possession unless they are talking about their own warehouse.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> You don't count cause you haven't seen it for yourself.



Only saw what you demonstrated to us here.



B&H has a huge warehouse in NY. They are Sony's largest distributor in the world. I would not be surprised if they got a couple pallet loads of T10's in the first shipment.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20417458
> 
> 
> Only saw what you demonstrated to us here.



I've found that it's impossible to demonstrate it online. :









How do I demonstrate the feeling I get as this momma fox is staring right at me with these piercing eyes while I'm typing this.


Indescribable!


Oops! Time to resync the cameras


----------



## Don Landis

Got shipping notice from Amazon but unfortunately it was not the TD10. Just the support accessories I ordered.

Hoodman, Carbon fiber monopod, 2 spare batteries and two 32Gb SD cards


----------



## bigbarney

Has anybody got a raw MVC sample from the TD10 they can post for download... or point me to direction in finding one?


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbarney* /forum/post/20418608
> 
> 
> Has anybody got a raw MVC sample from the TD10 they can post for download... or point me to direction in finding one?



i have plenty i have no clue


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20415082
> 
> 
> My TD10 is to be shipped to me this week and B&H is currently saying they have stock too. So, if anyone is serious about buying the TD10 I think your wait is over.



Thanks Don, I just got my tracking number for the TD10 from B&H. Should be here Thursday.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbarney* /forum/post/20418608
> 
> 
> Has anybody got a raw MVC sample from the TD10 they can post for download... or point me to direction in finding one?



Thanks to Don and B&H, I should be able to get you samples from my ftp server on Thursday. What size would you like?


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20419097
> 
> 
> Thanks Don, I just got my tracking number for the TD10 from B&H. Should be here Thursday.



So much for the SonyStyle Customer Service reps claiming that all their backorders would be filled first before other sellers would get product! Can we now expect Amazon to finally post a shipping date for their preorders now?


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20419032
> 
> 
> i have plenty i have no clue



You could set up a Dropbox account (Google it and follow the directions). When it's installed, you can add up to 2 GB of files for free, plenty for a few MVC files. To upload them, it's simply a matter of clicking on the Dropbox icon and dragging your files to the Public folder. It may take a while for them to upload, but when they're done you can share them with anyone. Right click on a file, go to "Dropbox" and then "Copy public link." In an AVS post box, click on the "Insert Link" button and paste the link you just copied into the box that pops up. Hit OK and you're done. The link will allow anyone to download your file to their computer. If you need more details, PM me.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20419127
> 
> 
> So much for the SonyStyle Customer Service reps claiming that all their backorders would be filled first before other sellers would get product! Can we now expect Amazon to finally post a shipping date for their preorders now?



Looks like Amazon is now posting shipping dates. Assume they have the cameras in stock or will have before the end of the week.


----------



## Don Landis

Things are happening with Amazon. I got my confirmation ETA as this Friday. Just checked and Amazon charged my CC so it looks like their ETA is on target for Friday delivery.

I checked status on my order with Sony and I get a splash page saying "their dog ate the web page" WTF? Guess I should phone them and cancel the order. They have not charged my CC yet either.



Joe- I didn't know dropbox had a free account. Is there a time limit or any nag screens connected with that? What is the upload speed limit you alluded to? I can upload my stuff at 10Mbs to my server here and have half TB of space. Also, I gather Dropbox has it's own ftp client. I should look into what they offer. It would keep my personal hobby stuff off my business server.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/20419364
> 
> 
> You could set up a Dropbox account (Google it and follow the directions). When it's installed, you can add up to 2 GB of files for free, plenty for a few MVC files. To upload them, it's simply a matter of clicking on the Dropbox icon and dragging your files to the Public folder. It may take a while for them to upload, but when they're done you can share them with anyone. Right click on a file, go to "Dropbox" and then "Copy public link." In an AVS post box, click on the "Insert Link" button and paste the link you just copied into the box that pops up. Hit OK and you're done. The link will allow anyone to download your file to their computer. If you need more details, PM me.







Is this the right one



http://www.dropbox.com/


----------



## icerat4

ok i got a dropbox account how do you use this thing.God i suck at this computer ****


----------



## icerat4

 http://http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28877...410152555.m2ts


----------



## sbg777

Just got off the phone with Sony customer service. Although the person I talk to was polite he was no help at all in determining when my order will ship (It’s still listed with an estimated ship date of the 5th).


So I called the sales line and was told that even though they show in stock on the web site with an estimated shipping date of today, they are not shipping yet. If you place an order today you will get an email stating that your order is delayed.


I understand the delays caused by the tragedy in Japan, but if they can’t ship the product it should not be listed as “in stock” ready to ship.


----------



## rajibo

I got an email yesterday stating mine would ship the 13th but the order page still says the 4th...


----------



## Don Landis

ice- your dropbox link is not working. web address is not found.


----------



## Don Landis

Based on the ETA from Amazon, I called and cancelled my order this morning from Sony. I got a notice this morning from Sony that the TD10 I orderd was shipped on 5/11/2011 however, I doubt that was true because they never charged my credit card, not even a credit hold. There was no problem doing the cancellation and the lady said I would be receiving a confirmation of the cancellation via e-mail. She also said she was sorry I had to cancel because they were not able to deliver on time. So... I'm back to Amazon wait and it's been my experience they are always spot on with delivery estimates. I've heard nothing from Amazon until last evening when I received e-mail advising my TD10 was scheduled to ship with an ETA of Friday. Hope it's the real thing!


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20421502
> 
> 
> ice- your dropbox link is not working. web address is not found.



paste the text shown below into your web browser


that worked for me from icerat's m2ts file

dl.dropbox.com/u/28877157/20110410152555.m2ts


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20421573
> 
> 
> paste the text shown below into your web browser
> 
> 
> that worked for me from icerat's m2ts file
> 
> dl.dropbox.com/u/28877157/20110410152555.m2ts



I opened this file and the info says 1440 x 1080 x60i.


Is this an MVC 3D file? Could be the tool I was using.


----------



## Don Landis

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* 
I opened this file and the info says 1440 x 1080 x60i.


Is this an MVC 3D file? Could be the tool I was using.
No it is an mPeg 2 file ( AVC) no 3D but does have AC3 audio.


----------



## Richard Adams

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
No it is an mPeg 2 file ( AVC) no 3D but does have AC3 audio.
Thanks for looking at the file too Don.


I think icerat4 has a good handle on posting raw files, but the request was for an MVC file with full 3D HD inside.


----------



## icerat4

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* 
Thanks for looking at the file too Don.


I think icerat4 has a good handle on posting raw files, but the request was for an MVC file with full 3D HD inside.




Sorry guys that was wrong. I shortly will have mvc right from my cam to my external hd to dropbox. They are uploading right now . so soon i will have them up


----------



## icerat4

 http://file:///C:/Users/Icerat/Downloads/00004.MTS


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20423297
> 
> http://file:///C:/Users/Icerat/Downloads/00004.MTS



I came up with the following link that works to paste in the browser.

dl.dropbox.com/u/28877157/00004.MTS 


The file does open with VideoRedo 4.20.6.619 and edit in 2D. If this is 3D MVC, I suspect that the extra view is in the edit output when I cut at I-Frames, since it does not re-code the stream in that case.


TS mux rate : 28.464 Mbps

Encoding : H.264

VideoStreamID : x1011

Frame rate : 29.97 fps

Encoding size : 1920 x 1080

AC3 5.1


No 3D playback hardware here yet...


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20423728
> 
> 
> I came up with the following link that works to paste in the browser.
> 
> dl.dropbox.com/u/28877157/00004.MTS
> 
> 
> The file does open with VideoRedo 4.20.6.619 and edit in 2D. If this is 3D MVC, I suspect that the extra view is in the edit output when I cut at I-Frames, since it does not re-code the stream in that case.
> 
> 
> TS mux rate : 28.464 Mbps
> 
> Encoding : H.264
> 
> VideoStreamID : x1011
> 
> Frame rate : 29.97 fps
> 
> Encoding size : 1920 x 1080
> 
> AC3 5.1
> 
> 
> No 3D playback hardware here yet...



This file opens and plays in 2D in both Windows Media Player and TMT5 on my system. TMT5 plays back JVC MVC files in 3D.


----------



## sharpnicle

I uploaded some to my syncplicity account, but still haven't checked the link:

https://my.syncplicity.com/invite/wdnr3rot 


the files i got from td10 are m2ts, which in vegas show 2 video streams


ps: I haven't double checked the procudures that how this m2ts files arose, but if I recall it right, after I uploaded these clips from the TD10 to my hard drive via PMB, the PMB took quite a while to reorganise these files when I tried to open the destined folder, even if the PMB itself is closed, then these m2ts files came out.


I think there must be important porcedure, like encoding or something, for a raw file from TD10 to become an appropriate 3d format so a conventional software would recognize it, and by now it can only be done by PMB as we know, hope this would help you, ice!



---------------------------------------------

sorry icerat4, because I can't download your link, so I misjudged your file, I am behind the GreatFireWall


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/20423782
> 
> 
> This file opens and plays in 2D in both Windows Media Player and TMT5 on my system. TMT5 plays back JVC MVC files in 3D.



Joseph, is that 00004.MTS file in 3D on TMT5 ?


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sharpnicle* /forum/post/20423923
> 
> 
> I uploaded some to my syncplicity account, but still haven't checked the link:
> 
> https://my.syncplicity.com/invite/wdnr3rot
> 
> 
> the files i got from td10 are m2ts, which in vegas show 2 video streams



My playback software (TMT5, Win Media Player, PowerDVD) sees the file as 2D only.







I have to get Vegas installed.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20423977
> 
> 
> Joseph, is that 00004.MTS file in 3D on TMT5 ?



Yes, that's the way it plays back for me. MTS files from the JVC are side by side only. The JVC's mp4 files play back in TMT5 in 3D, though I have yet to get my computer to induce my RS40 projector to emit a 3D sync signal. That's a software issue, though.


----------



## Don Landis

Thanks Richard. I'm downloading the file now and will test shortly in Vegas 10d.


PS- I got my tracking number for the TD10 to arrive here Friday AM. I also have some shooter's accessories arriving. But got word my batteries will arrive next week. I'm going to need 2- 70's and 1- 100 to carry with me on my shoots week after next.


Joe: I decided against a glidecam for the TD10 as I'll need a monopod pole mopre because I'll be shooting in huge crowds of people. I ordered a carbon fiber 65" long that will have a belt pocket Should put it above all but the NBA players and I don't think any of them will be in the crowd.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20424068
> 
> 
> Thanks Richard. I'm downloading the file now and will test shortly in Vegas 10d.
> 
> 
> PS- I got my tracking number for the TD10 to arrive here Friday AM. I also have some shooter's accessories arriving. But got word my batteries will arrive next week. I'm going to need 2- 70's and 1- 100 to carry with me on my shoots week after next.
> 
> 
> Joe: I decided against a glidecam for the TD10 as I'll need a monopod pole mopre because I'll be shooting in huge crowds of people. I ordered a carbon fiber 65" long that will have a belt pocket Should put it above all but the NBA players and I don't think any of them will be in the crowd.


----------



## Don Landis

Here is what the file properties says :


Streams

Video 1: 00:00:33.033, 29.970 fps interlaced, 1,920x1,080x12, AVC, AVC

Video 2: 00:00:33.033, 29.970 fps interlaced, 1,920x1,080x12, MVC, MVC

Audio: 00:00:33.056, 48,000 Hz, 5.1 Surround, Dolby AC-3, Dolby AC-3



If I shut off Vegas 3D properties it will load into the timeline as a pair of 2D clips on 2 tracks. If I turn on 3D stereo using anaglyph ( I'm not using a 3D monitor on my computer), it loads as a single 3D clip with excellent PQ and full 1080 x 1920


One thing I have been seeing as a difference between JVC video and Sony. The images are typically warmer with the JVC and have higher chroma saturation. I haven't taken the time to scope them as I wanted to wait for a good Sony raw to do that and now it looks like I have one courtesy from icerat4.


It has been my experience that cameras that over saturate the chroma and not be properly white balanced can lead to trouble later in post. But if one really needs that extra warm look, there is an old shooter's trick to achieving that:

Put the camera in manual white balance, then white balance through a light sky blue gel. This achieves a more natural warming than adding a warming red filter to the lens.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20424068
> 
> 
> Thanks Richard. I'm downloading the file now and will test shortly in Vegas 10d.
> 
> 
> PS- I got my tracking number for the TD10 to arrive here Friday AM. I also have some shooter's accessories arriving. But got word my batteries will arrive next week. I'm going to need 2- 70's and 1- 100 to carry with me on my shoots week after next.
> 
> 
> Joe: I decided against a glidecam for the TD10 as I'll need a monopod pole mopre because I'll be shooting in huge crowds of people. I ordered a carbon fiber 65" long that will have a belt pocket Should put it above all but the NBA players and I don't think any of them will be in the crowd.



Cool. I'd like to see some footage, if you can share a bit.


My Blackbird stabilizer should be here tomorrow. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes me to balance it. I'll provide links to some footage over in the JVC thread, once I get the hang of it.


----------



## TomWheeler

For weeks now I have been following the threads here on the Sony HDR-TD10 with great interest. I ordered the 3D camcorder today from B&H (my Sony dealer had been unable to get one) and I had it sent overnight air. It has already been shipped and should arrive before 10:30 AM tomorrow (Thursday). I just upgraded my Vegas Pro 10 to 10d so I should be able to edit the 3D footage from the Sony TD10.


I am quite excited about shooting 3D with the TD10. In late January I purchased a Sony VPL-VW90ES 3D capable projector and it displays a beautiful 3D image from Blu-ray 3D with no ghosting on my Stewart 100 in. wide Studiomatte 1.3 screen.


The Sony is going to get me back to using my PC for video editing. For the last few years I switched from Vegas to Final Cut Pro on the Mac and more recently to Adobe's Premiere Pro CS5.5 on the Mac, but neither of these are at present able to ingest the Sony TD10's MVC file format, and I am not interested in side-by-side because I want all the resolution I can get for viewing these on the big screen with my 90ES.


So...just a word of thanks to all who have been contribution to both this and the JVC threads. I have learned a lot and look forward to soon be posting a few of my own thoughts.


Tom


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TomWheeler* /forum/post/20424367
> 
> 
> For weeks now I have been following the threads here on the Sony HDR-TD10 with great interest. I ordered the 3D camcorder today from B&H (my Sony dealer had been unable to get one) and I had it sent overnight air. It has already been shipped and should arrive before 10:30 AM tomorrow (Thursday). I just upgraded my Vegas Pro 10 to 10d so I should be able to edit the 3D footage from the Sony TD10.
> 
> 
> I am quite excited about shooting 3D with the TD10. In late January I purchased a Sony VPL-VW90ES 3D capable projector and it displays a beautiful 3D image from Blu-ray 3D with no ghosting on my Stewart 100 in. wide Studiomatte 1.3 screen.
> 
> 
> The Sony is going to get me back to using my PC for video editing. For the last few years I switched from Vegas to Final Cut Pro on the Mac and more recently to Adobe's Premiere Pro CS5.5 on the Mac, but neither of these are at present able to ingest the Sony TD10's MVC file format, and I am not interested in side-by-side because I want all the resolution I can get for viewing these on the big screen with my 90ES.
> 
> 
> So...just a word of thanks to all who have been contribution to both this and the JVC threads. I have learned a lot and look forward to soon be posting a few of my own thoughts.
> 
> 
> Tom



Hi, Tom. I'll look forward to your impressions. We all have much to learn in the coming months, and there are so many unexpected surprised (many of them unpleasant) when you try to use software to get work done. It's great to have other people who are going through the same things and helping find answers.


----------



## bigbarney

Hey thanks for the footage SHARPNICLE.


This is cool... works well on the Vegas time line too. As Don notes it clearly does open on the time line as 2 streams along with the 5.1 surround so it totals out to 8 tracks all together and it is all completely editable. It seems to be basically the same structure you would see on a Blu Ray disk with the only difference being the second stream being noted as a SSIF file


After seeing what the TD10 looks like on the timeline it's quite clear that the JVC footage *IS* different and not accepted by Vegas. Of course JVC has had this issue in the past with unique and oddball format outputs. Maybe a future Vegas update will take care of it but I wouldn't hold my breath.... Vegas (and many other editors) STILL do not readily accept JVC TOD files from the original mpeg hi def jvc hard drive cam.


----------



## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbarney* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey thanks for the footage SHARPNICLE.
> 
> 
> This is cool... works well on the Vegas time line too. As Don notes it clearly does open on the time line as 2 streams along with the 5.1 surround so it totals out to 8 tracks all together and it is all completely editable. It seems to be basically the same structure you would see on a Blu Ray disk.



You are welcome!


Today I checked again the file type issue, found that the original clips are mts extensions, while filenames are organised as 00001,00002...number sequentially


and sync with a harddisk in mass storage mode results in ghost content.


and these mts files are seen by vegas as 2d, like what joe said


----------



## TomWheeler

Joe,


You are indeed right about having a lot to learn. My Sony HDR-TD10 arrived this morning and I have spent the entire morning charging the battery pack that came with the camera and a spare battery pack that I also had ordered form B&H.


Since I needed to charge batteries, I have done nothing with the camcorder yet, but I am impressed with how small and light the camcorder is and with the apparent quality of its construction. I have always found Sony camcorders to be well engineered, and the TD10 certainly seems to follow that tradition. Now it is time to sit down with the manual and start reading. I had hoped to go out to a local park this afternoon to take my first 3D footage, but it is raining and quite dark here today so my first footage may have to be indoor material.


Tom


----------



## Don Landis

Tom-

Since you have batteries to charge- can you take a moment and measure the exact diameter of the lens mounting ring? I need to order the right step up ring for the matte box. It should be 3" according to my notes from NAB. I'd like to have it in mm a little more precise if you have a calipers. The step ring clamps down to 75mm so that one should work if my measurement was accurate. If you don't have time that's OK, I'll order it tomorrow after my camera arrives.


Joe- I got a monopod which I think will suit me better than the Blackbird. Do you know holding the collapsed monopod attached to the camera between thumb and forefinger will allow you to use it like a glidecam? Anyway, I needed something to raise the camera above heads in a crowd.


----------



## pteittinen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbarney* /forum/post/20425295
> 
> 
> Of course JVC has had this issue in the past with unique and oddball format outputs.



But the output from JVC 3D cam is _not_ oddball. The files adhere to the latest AVC spec (which describes MVC in an MP4 container) and had Sony implemented the spec, Vegas would open the files.


----------



## bigbarney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pteittinen* /forum/post/20427905
> 
> 
> But the output from JVC 3D cam is _not_ oddball. The files adhere to the latest AVC spec (which describes MVC in an MP4 container) and had Sony implemented the spec, Vegas would open the files.



MP4 is not Blu Ray compliant... and neither is the AAC audio that JVC is using. What Sony is using *IS* in fact Blu Ray compliant.


Now..... which method makes more sense?


Have a read at how Blu Ray 3D disks are constructed and you'll see that JVC is out in left field once again:

http://www.netblender.com/main/resou.../mvc-encoding/


----------



## pteittinen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbarney* /forum/post/20427940
> 
> 
> MP4 is not Blu Ray compliant... and neither is the AAC audio that JVC is using.



That has nothing to do with what I posted and has no bearing on Vegas file format support. Most cameras on the planet produce output that is not Blu-ray compliant, and yet that output is used to produce Blu-rays. This is not about Blu-ray compliancy in the slightest.



> Quote:
> What Sony is using *IS* in fact Blu Ray compliant.



Right. Go on then, copy the files from Sony 3D camcorder to your PC and burn the files as-is on a BD-R, then play the disc on your stand-alone player. You'll soon understand the difference between format compliancy and authoring.



> Quote:
> Have a read at how Blu Ray 3D disks are constructed and you'll see that JVC is out in left field once again



I'm well aware of the entire 3D Blu-ray authoring workflow.


----------



## Don Landis

Sony invented Blu Ray. Blu Ray is Sony. Vegas is Sony. TD10 is Sony. MY PS3 is Sony. My PS3 plays all BluRay whether replicated or burned. Can't say that for other BluRay players.


JVC is not Sony. If you must complain about Sony not supporting JVC then complain to JVC, not Sony. I said before, I go with Sony because Sony supports it's line completely. Many have good reasons to go with JVC and I respect those reasons but these people have to respect that they may not be playing with a full deck of cards when they decide to go that route. When you work with Sony you know that you will have a complete support system on your side. To me, that means much more than any minor difference I may find with JVC, Panasonic, Hitachi, Canon, etc.

As far as I'm concerned there is no debate here.


----------



## bigbarney

Quote:

Originally Posted by *pteittinen* 
Right. Go on then, copy the files from Sony 3D camcorder to your PC and burn the files as-is on a BD-R, then play the disc on your stand-alone player. You'll soon understand the difference between format compliancy and authoring.
It can and already has been done. Not the authoring part of course... we still need a DVDa update for that, but creating a 3D Blu Ray disk now (from a TD10 source) is entirely possible.


But let's not stray too far from your original claim in that JVC followed the spec... which they didn't. The AAC audio alone puts them out in left field.


I completely agree with Don on this. This is not a "Sony" issue. It's a JVC issue... just as it was with their Enviro cams using some out-in-left-field TOD format. If you read back in my posts months ago just before the JVC cam came out... this was one of my major concerns:


Given their previous track record for oddball output formats... is this cam actually going to be compatible with anything else out there?


And to be honest, I ask this question with ALL of the stuff I buy... and again I agree with Don in that most of the time I go with Sony because I know the item will AT LEAST be compatible with other Sony components.


----------



## pteittinen

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis*
Sony invented Blu Ray. Blu Ray is Sony. Vegas is Sony. TD10 is Sony. MY PS3 is Sony. My PS3 plays all BluRay whether replicated or burned. Can't say that for other BluRay players.
This is my pet peeve: there is no "Blu Ray" or "BluRay". It's "Blu-ray" and just as easy to get right as it is to get wrong









Quote:

JVC is not Sony. If you must complain about Sony not supporting JVC then complain to JVC, not Sony.
No. That is quite simply incorrect. JVC is not the developer of Vegas. It's not the task of individual camera manufacturers to knock on the door of every NLE manufacturer with hat in hand and beg for support for their camera - especially when the file format in question is based on existing spec and not a proprietary solution. It is, however, up to the NLE developer to support the widest possible selection of formats if they wish to cater for the widest possible customer base. If they decide, for whatever reason, not to support format X they are sending a message of "we don't need your custom" and risk losing some business. It is most certainly in the interest of Sony Creative (which is a separate business unit from Sony's video camera unit) to support as many formats as possible.


----------



## bigbarney

Quote:

Originally Posted by *pteittinen* 
This is my pet peeve: there is no "Blu Ray" or "BluRay". It's "Blu-ray" and just as easy to get right as it is to get wrong











No. That is quite simply incorrect. JVC is not the developer of Vegas. It's not the task of individual camera manufacturers to knock on the door of every NLE manufacturer with hat in hand and beg for support for their camera - especially when the file format in question is based on existing spec and not a proprietary solution. It is, however, up to the NLE developer to support the widest possible selection of formats if they wish to cater for the widest possible customer base. If they decide, for whatever reason, not to support format X they are sending a message of "we don't need your custom" and risk losing some business. It is most certainly in the interest of Sony Creative (which is a separate business unit from Sony's video camera unit) to support as many formats as possible.
Well... only if it's worth it for SCS to add support for the cam in question. They have yet to add native support for the TOD file, and don't bother trying to look for support for the semi pro Panasonic cams either.... Sony REFUSES to support Panasonic. That's the chance you take though when purchasing this kind of stuff while it's hot of the presses so to speak. There is no law that says ANY of these nle's MUST support all cams.


Please stop saying JVC followed the spec. They did not.


Need i remind you that Sony Vegas is the *ONLY* nle to support *ANY* of these new cams... but then I don't see you hopping mad at FCP.... Adobe... Corel...etc


If JVC puts out an oddball format... then it's JVC's responsibility to supply the software to convert. To the best of my knowledge they have not supplied software to convert their MVC/MP4


----------



## pteittinen

Quote:

Originally Posted by *bigbarney*
It can and already has been done. Not the authoring part of course... we still need a DVDa update for that, but creating a 3D Blu Ray disk now (from a TD10 source) is entirely possible.
You are confusing compliancy and authoring again. If you burn the files on disc as-is, the resulting disc is not adhering to the Blu-ray standard and will not play. Sure, some players have media player functionality which lets them play many file formats from a BD but that has nothing to with Blu-ray movie spec. My point is that no matter the acquisition format, the data always needs to be manipulated in order to create a playable BD. In that respect all formats are equal and BD compliancy is irrelevant.

Quote:

But let's not stray too far from your original claim in that JVC followed the spec... which they didn't. The AAC audio alone puts them out in left field.
JVC video adheres to the part of AVC spec which defines MVC in an MP4 container. MP4 container spec allows AAC audio. Point being that JVC's is not a proprietary format like, for example, RED's REDCODE.


----------



## bigbarney

Quote:

Originally Posted by *pteittinen* 
If you burn the files on disc as-is, the resulting disc is not adhering to the Blu-ray standard and will not play.
That's true for just about anything... including avchd... which comes pretty close to Blu ray compliancy all on its own

Quote:

My point is that no matter the acquisition format, the data always needs to be manipulated in order to create a playable BD. In that respect all formats are equal and BD compliancy is irrelevant.
No.

avchd (just for example) was in fact created specifically so that the data did *NOT* have to be manipulated.

Quote:

JVC video adheres to the part of AVC spec which defines MVC in an MP4 container. MP4 container spec allows AAC audio.
And once again I'm saying you're wrong. The MP4 container allows for just about anything short of a cat or dog... that doesn't mean JVC followed any spec.


----------



## TomWheeler

Don,


I am sorry but I don't have a pair of calipers so I can't really give you an accurate measurement on the lens diameter. I did check the Sony specifications in the manual but they did not give the lens diameter unfortunately.


Tom


----------



## TomWheeler

It has been an interesting day since my TD10 arrived about 10 AM. I spent hours charging two batteries, but read the manual while doing so in order to become throughly familiar with the camcorder before using it for the first time. It was raining here today and quite dark so there was no chance of getting outdoors with the TD10. In fact, I even had difficulty getting enough light on objects indoors to run the Auto 3D Lens Adjust. However, I finally succeeded in doing so and then the fun began with some indoor clips recorded in 3D.


Others here have commented on how good the LCD display in 3D is on the TD10, and I would certainly agree. In fact, when i first turned on the camcorder and was looking squarely at the LCD, I was really struck by how natural the 3d image looked and the depth of the 3D. Sony did a beautiful job on this LCD display!


I took several clips indoors with normal indoor lightening (i.e. I did not use any supplementary on camera light), and I then viewed them via the camcorder's playback on our Sony 90ES projector on our large screen. My wife and I both were really pleased with the 3D quality of the images recorded by the 10D. We saw ghosting only once in watching about 10 minutes of footage and this occurred when an object, in this case a newspaper my wife was holding, came closer than 3 feet to the camcorder. The 3D image had excellent depth, good color, and was nice and bright on our projector. The only downside I noticed was that the Sony active shutter glasses required for us to watch 3D on our projector did seem to desaturate the colors a bit. Perhaps when I get into editing my footage on Vegas 10d I will be able to correct this.


We then watched all three clips in 2D. Our reaction was that after the 3D the 2D image was a letdown -- not because it was not excellent -- but because we really missed the immersive experience that the added depth gave to the image. Color quality in 2D mode was outstanding with natural flesh tones and a very sharp image even on our large screen. Frankly, I was truly blown away with this initial experience at 3D on the 10TD.


One of the clips that we took this afternoon was essentially a lock-down shot with the 10D on a tripod about five feet from my Yamaha grand piano. I sat down and played a four minute piece just to see what the sound recorded by the 10D would be like and what the 3D image would look like. When we watched this and listened through the 7.1 surround sound system in our home theater, the sound was truly excellent. Of course it was 5.1 Dolby Digital, but I was amazed at how good the mics built into the Sony 10D were. I normally record my grand piano using an Edirol R-09-HR recorder which is noted for having high quality microphones. The Sony 10D equaled the quality of the audio recording of my Edirol which I would never have expected.


I hope tomorrow will present better weather conditions and I can get outside to shoot some 3D footage in a local park. I also am excited about getting up to speed in Vegas and working with the MVC clips shot by the 10D.


So...it's very early in the game for me, but at this point my wife and I are both very pleased with the performance of the 10D.


Tom


----------



## Joseph Clark

Quote:

Originally Posted by *bigbarney* 
... And to be honest, I ask this question with ALL of the stuff I buy... and again I agree with Don in that most of the time I go with Sony because I know the item will AT LEAST be compatible with other Sony components.
Tell that to my friend who never could get his Sony ES series AVR to work with his Sony Pearl projector because of an HDMI incompatibility. After several talks with Sony tech support, and their acknowledgment that there was a problem, he gave up. There are no absolutes in consumer electronics.


----------



## Don Landis

This is the Diameter I was looking for. I also forgot that I will need to mil out a slot for the manual control knob. The prosumer version has a Sony lens shade accessory that mounts to this flange with cutout for the knob. Sony does not make a mattebox but for other Sony Camcorders, companies like Cavision make them.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/20429069
> 
> 
> Tell that to my friend who never could get his Sony ES series AVR to work with his Sony Pearl projector because of an HDMI incompatibility. After several talks with Sony tech support, and their acknowledgment that there was a problem, he gave up. There are no absolutes in consumer electronics.




OK, you win. I had a problem with my Sony HDR SR12 DD5.1 audio would not import the LFE channel into Vegas V8.0x I tried and tried and the sound was zero! I asked many Vegas editors and most were still working in the 2.0 world.

Finally, a year ago, I was ready to give up on this when I raised the question about this in class on new features of Vegas 9 and the instructor admitted they had a bug in 8 that was never fixed. Finally in Vegas 9 they addressed the issue and fixed it. Then, he went on to explain two work-arounds that would get around the bug and allow the LFE channel to import from the clips made by Sony cameras to Vegas v8. But, the easy way was to just upgrade to v9. I tried the work-arounds and they worked fine but as he said, I did it the easy way and upgraded to v9.

Sony is not perfect, but they are the absolutely best, most complete working package you can buy for working in video- and making a profit in the video business.

Couple of days ago I got a call from a Panasonic sales rep as a followup from NAB. I told him Panasonic stuff is OK but, I'm primarily working with Sony. He said Oh, well I can't compete with Sony if you need a complete working solution. I did want to advise you that we lowered our price on P2 memory. I said does it now compete with Sony using SD cards? No, can't compete with that. End of conversation!


----------



## Joseph Clark

Not trying to win. Just pointing out that no company is perfect. Google any of them and you'll find lots of unhappy customers, and horror stories about bad service. The JVC camcorder may have a flaw with focus in the right lens. I haven't seen it in mine yet, but it's shown up in a few AVS members' camcorders.


I'm also not doubting your trust in the Sony video ecosystem. I understand your loyalty. If the Sony had been first to market, I'd probably own one instead of a JVC. That said, I'm extremely happy with the JVC TD1 so far. I think the image quality is stellar for a consumer level camcorder. I also think it's likely that I'll own a second generation 3D camcorder next year.


----------



## harob111

*Intro*

Hey guys, i've been desperately searching the web for thoughts and reviews on this Sony TD10 camcorder. Camcordreviews.com only has the G10 and the Panasonic TM900K reviewed. Both seem great in their own right. Glad I found this site/forum topic.

*About me*

I don't have a lot of experience with camcorders as i'm more of a SLR still image guy. I have a 5DMKII which i love and I've previously owned a Canon HS20 or something.... like 4 years ago. I'm for the best quailty, not for a particular company. If Sanyo made undeniably made the best camcorder this year, that's the one i'd go for. I have no experience editing video when I read and try to grasp the insanity surrounding proprietary editing programs and formats avchd, mpeg4 yadda yadda I get angry. Honestly, I might as well pick up the China Post and try to read it. Not a sniff.

*How I got it*

I was up late this past Wednesday screwing around on the web and it was just my luck that I noticed BHphoto's "Pre-Order" notation has changed to "In Stock". I woke up very early the next (i'm in Santa Barbara, they're in NY) and had it shipped overnight.


*Initial adventure*

I haven't read the manual, but I have gone through every option in the camera menu's MANY times, now. Yesterday I took the Camera over to "Sammy's Camera" (giant camera store in town) and did some shooting with the Canon G10 and the Panasonic HS900K. Unfortunately though, I'm not able to view all of the video I took because when attempting to play back the SDHC card, on screen you get a notification saying something to the effect of "multiple recording sources found - cannot record or play back - would you like to format?", or something to that effect.


*Looks/Design*

First things first, it looks a little like a toaster but it's an elegant toaster. I have monster hands so it fits totally fine and in all honesty, it's not as big and overbearing as you've probably read it is. It's also quite light. It also feels pretty well made...... not as solid as the Canon G10 or the Sony CX700V but definitely more so than the ultra cheap feeling Panasonic HS900K.



*LCD**&Menus*

The LCD is by far, the most dense, pure looking LCD i've used on a camcorder to date. It's also nice and responsive and the menu's are nicely laid out. Sometimes it makes you start over, navigating through menu's but not often. I don't know how they did it but in 3-D mode, it's sick...... it totally does look 3-D with no glasses needed. Pretty neat to see. Outside, in either 2 or 3-D the LCD can be a little difficult to see. I would have thought they could have done better in this respect.


*First Take*

First thing I filmed was the ocean from my deck in (i'm lucky, definitely) in 1080/60P/28mbps and colors appeared very natural looking. I was expecting the colors to be off since camcorderreviews.com gave the Sony CX700V mediocre reviews in terms of color, etc (they seem pretty damn reputable, no...) and I figured this TD10 and the CX700V would be pretty much the same camcorder besides this one doing the 3-D thing and the CX700V having the slightly larger sensor (what are your guy's thoughts on this?). So anyway, ya, colors seemed nice and natural. Motion was very very smooth and lovely to view. In bright light, noise is a non factor as it seems to be with most high end camcorders. The image looked nice and sharp, as well. I switched it to 60i afterward to compare and it still had all the characteristics of 60P but with just a slight hit in sharpness and motion smoothness.... which is to be expected. This 60P stuff is legit, no doubt... I just wish it wasn't such a pain the ass to view/work with.



*24P/24Mbps*

24P Cinema mode or whatever Sony refers to it as was disappointing. VERY juddery when panning. I actually thought this camera was supposed to to Native 24P/24mbps but I guess not. I took off the image stabilizer and panned in 24p/24mbps today while at the driving range and it seemed to lesson the judder perhaps a little bit. When holding the camcorder still, it was fine... moving subjects had a decent cinematic look.... still choppier than native 24p, however.


*No Lens Hood*

One thing I will say, this camera I hope, will have a lens hood in the future. Lens flare at the range today was pretty bad. Granted I was shooting directly towards it (not into it but towards) it.


*Low Light*

There's an auto mode which sets up the camera to shoot in the best possible fashion, determined by the camera itself. In low light, this mode does an ok job. By no means does the image appear brighter in playback then it did in real life... instead, it's nicely truthful to what you saw with your own eye. There's also a nighttime setting (little moon icon) which I'm not sure but I think just slows the shutter speed down.... it's ok. And then there's a low lux mode. I hate it. VERY pixelated and I've noticed large white noise/pixels on scree, every time I use it. Not sure if this is a glitch on my camera or just the small sensor not able to handle situations in very low light. It's also very noisy and blurry. I'd rather have a sharper, more true life, less noisy picture, personally... but to each his own.

24P mode surprisingly, doesn't seem to make too much of a difference in low light situations. It perhaps sharpens up the image slightly, but then it's a lot choppier when moving...

Overall, my assumption is that this camera isn't a low light killer, but to be fair, I haven't used the G10 or the HS900 in low light. I've watched some videos on youtube of these camera in low light and they appear superior.

The TD is very noisy in Low Lux mode, quite noisy in regular modes shot in low lit environments and quite smudgy/blurry looking. I'm talking very low light environments. In regular indoor shooting, in daylight, it's pretty decent and with only house lighting (at night) it's just ok.


*AutoFocus*

Seems to do a good job in everything but very low light. Daylight, great, smile detection and face detection work great, as does the touch a spot on the LCD to lock focus. In low low light, the camera wasn't able to focus on things very well at all. Even if I touched a spot on the LCD, it still either hunted for long time before focusing or it didn't at all. Don't get me wrong, it could be worse, but it could also be a lot better.



3-D

I shot some 3-D footage of myself swinging a golf club this afternoon. Very bright daylight. Again, it looked very good on the LCD and although I didn't buy this camera because of it's 3-D feature, at all, I was BLOWN AWAY with it's 3-D performance on my Panasonic Viera VT25 (54") TV. I've played 3-D video games and i've watched that Greek God Blu Ray movie and I mean, both were kind of cool but i could definitely see it getting old. NOT THIS. This 3-D footage taken with this camera was on a completely different level. I don't know why, or how, but it is. No question. It had such incredible depth to it, and the image quality (sharpness, color, etc) was virtually unaffected from 2-D. If you're buying this camera for it's 3-D feature, you will LOVE IT! So far, by far, the most impressive aspect of the camera. And like I said, I'm not a big 3-D guy. Incredible

*Compared To:*

I was able to do a few comparisons with to Panasonic HS900 and the Sony 700 and the Canon G10 at the store... viewed them last night on a SDHC card. The Canon had far less noise than the the TD10. It also appeared more film like in it's tones and saturation. The Panasonic also had less noise and was definitely sharper and even maybe a little smoother. More saturated colors, too. The 700 Sony seemed very similar but with slightly less noise in low light.

Take these comparisons with a grain of salt. By no means was this a strict, controlled environment test.


This is getting pretty long and i'm tired, let me know if you have any question. I have a couple for you guys.


I'm using a 17" Macbook Pro. When I take the SDHC card and plug it into my Mac, I can't even view the videos from the Sony. Nothing happens. I've heard you can't use Sony's software (that's included) but can you not even view your videos on the computer??? ** Please let me know **.

If I connect the TD10 via USB from the camcorder HD, same thing. No videos, nothing.


Also, when you click on certain frame rates and resolutions and KBPS options on the menu of the camcorder, it shows line of about 5 icons at the bottom of the LCD - a disc meaning blu ray, the letters AVCHD, DVD, and a couple of other things. When you select 24P/24mbps it puts a red line through the AVCHD letters/icon. When you select 60P it puts a red line through the blu ray and the AVCHD letters/icons. When you select 1080P it puts a line through the AVCHD letters/icon.

Let me get this straight then..... AVCHD is a format that allows us to transfer the video data to a flash card, right?

With all frame rates, resolutions, mbps being equal, will this flash card play back your video in a slightly worse looking experience than playing it back straight from the hard drive, right?

Do I have to do anything on my TV to watch 24P video the way it is meant to be watched? This 24/60/96/120 stuff is confusing as hell. 3:2 pulldown, etc, etc. No idea what's going with all of that.

Can I burn 1080P, 24P, 60i to a blu ray? Just not 1080/60P?

Does viewing your video from a SDHC card on your computer change anything from viewing it on your TV?

I could go on and on, basically if one of you could let me know what I have to do to view my videos in the best possible quality I'd appreciate it.


Again, let me know if you have any more questions regarding the camcorder. I'm not 100% sure i'm going to stick with the TD10, just because I've read the Panasonic HS900K has the best pure image quality out there, and the Canon, very close, with superior low light capability.


----------



## iWATCH3D

I've recenly uploaded my first video taken with Sony HDR-TD10 in MVC/AVC mode and edited in Vegas 10.0d, you can find it on Youtube by searching for "Sony HDR-TD10 3D MVC sample " ( as I can't yet post links ) and for the full 3840x1080 download head to 3DVision-blog dot com and find the relevant post. Let me know what you think of the quality.

One last thing, I am really envy of all of you who are now getting deliveries of this cam, as I'm in UK and I've been told shipments might start from end of May the earliest, damn you... I want one now!


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iWATCH3D* /forum/post/20430290
> 
> 
> I've recenly uploaded my first video taken with Sony HDR-TD10 in MVC/AVC mode and edited in Vegas 10.0d, you can find it on Youtube by searching for "Sony HDR-TD10 3D MVC sample " ( as I can't yet post links ) and for the full 3840x1080 download head to 3DVision-blog dot com and find the relevant post. Let me know what you think of the quality.
> 
> One last thing, I am really envy of all of you who are now getting deliveries of this cam, as I'm in UK and I've been told shipments might start from end of May the earliest, damn you... I want one now!







WELL whos cam did you use if you dont have it


----------



## pteittinen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbarney* /forum/post/20428912
> 
> 
> avchd (just for example) was in fact created specifically so that the data did *NOT* have to be manipulated.



The disc will always have to be authored. That's what I mean by manipulation. Does the Sony create the entire BD-compliant directory tree ready for burning on a BD-R, or do you have to arrange the footage in an NLE first and output/render an ISO image?



> Quote:
> And once again I'm saying you're wrong. The MP4 container allows for just about anything short of a cat or dog... that doesn't mean JVC followed any spec.



So are you saying JVC decided to simply create a new proprietary spec of their own on a whim and disregard existing AVC/MP4 specs? I very much doubt it. Vegas development team omitting support for some parts of the latest spec does _not_ mean JVC didn't adhere to specs.


For the record, I own neither the Sony nor the JVC 3D camcorder. I'm now working for a 3D TV network and currently evaluating a large variety of 3D acquisition solutions for network's in-house content production. I've been testing the JVC for a couple of months and still waiting for Sony Finland to deliver the HDR-TD10. So in case someone thinks I'm saying toy A is rubbish and toy B is better... well, I'm not.


----------



## 3Dmadman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *harob111* /forum/post/20430183
> 
> *Intro*
> 
> Hey guys, i've been desperately searching the web for thoughts and reviews on this Sony TD10 camcorder. Camcordreviews.com only has the G10 and the Panasonic TM900K reviewed. Both seem great in their own right. Glad I found this site/forum topic.
> 
> *About me*
> 
> I don't have a lot of experience with camcorders as i'm more of a SLR still image guy. I have a 5DMKII which i love and I've previously owned a Canon HS20 or something.... like 4 years ago. I'm for the best quailty, not for a particular company. If Sanyo made undeniably made the best camcorder this year, that's the one i'd go for. I have no experience editing video when I read and try to grasp the insanity surrounding proprietary editing programs and formats avchd, mpeg4 yadda yadda I get angry. Honestly, I might as well pick up the China Post and try to read it. Not a sniff.
> 
> *How I got it*
> 
> I was up late this past Wednesday screwing around on the web and it was just my luck that I noticed BHphoto's "Pre-Order" notation has changed to "In Stock". I woke up very early the next (i'm in Santa Barbara, they're in NY) and had it shipped overnight.
> 
> 
> *Initial adventure*
> 
> I haven't read the manual, but I have gone through every option in the camera menu's MANY times, now. Yesterday I took the Camera over to "Sammy's Camera" (giant camera store in town) and did some shooting with the Canon G10 and the Panasonic HS900K. Unfortunately though, I'm not able to view all of the video I took because when attempting to play back the SDHC card, on screen you get a notification saying something to the effect of "multiple recording sources found - cannot record or play back - would you like to format?", or something to that effect.
> 
> 
> *Looks/Design*
> 
> First things first, it looks a little like a toaster but it's an elegant toaster. I have monster hands so it fits totally fine and in all honesty, it's not as big and overbearing as you've probably read it is. It's also quite light. It also feels pretty well made...... not as solid as the Canon G10 or the Sony CX700V but definitely more so than the ultra cheap feeling Panasonic HS900K.
> 
> 
> 
> *LCD**&Menus*
> 
> The LCD is by far, the most dense, pure looking LCD i've used on a camcorder to date. It's also nice and responsive and the menu's are nicely laid out. Sometimes it makes you start over, navigating through menu's but not often. I don't know how they did it but in 3-D mode, it's sick...... it totally does look 3-D with no glasses needed. Pretty neat to see. Outside, in either 2 or 3-D the LCD can be a little difficult to see. I would have thought they could have done better in this respect.
> 
> 
> *First Take*
> 
> First thing I filmed was the ocean from my deck in (i'm lucky, definitely) in 1080/60P/28mbps and colors appeared very natural looking. I was expecting the colors to be off since camcorderreviews.com gave the Sony CX700V mediocre reviews in terms of color, etc (they seem pretty damn reputable, no...) and I figured this TD10 and the CX700V would be pretty much the same camcorder besides this one doing the 3-D thing and the CX700V having the slightly larger sensor (what are your guy's thoughts on this?). So anyway, ya, colors seemed nice and natural. Motion was very very smooth and lovely to view. In bright light, noise is a non factor as it seems to be with most high end camcorders. The image looked nice and sharp, as well. I switched it to 60i afterward to compare and it still had all the characteristics of 60P but with just a slight hit in sharpness and motion smoothness.... which is to be expected. This 60P stuff is legit, no doubt... I just wish it wasn't such a pain the ass to view/work with.
> 
> 
> 
> *24P/24Mbps*
> 
> 24P Cinema mode or whatever Sony refers to it as was disappointing. VERY juddery when panning. I actually thought this camera was supposed to to Native 24P/24mbps but I guess not. I took off the image stabilizer and panned in 24p/24mbps today while at the driving range and it seemed to lesson the judder perhaps a little bit. When holding the camcorder still, it was fine... moving subjects had a decent cinematic look.... still choppier than native 24p, however.
> 
> 
> *No Lens Hood*
> 
> One thing I will say, this camera I hope, will have a lens hood in the future. Lens flare at the range today was pretty bad. Granted I was shooting directly towards it (not into it but towards) it.
> 
> 
> *Low Light*
> 
> There's an auto mode which sets up the camera to shoot in the best possible fashion, determined by the camera itself. In low light, this mode does an ok job. By no means does the image appear brighter in playback then it did in real life... instead, it's nicely truthful to what you saw with your own eye. There's also a nighttime setting (little moon icon) which I'm not sure but I think just slows the shutter speed down.... it's ok. And then there's a low lux mode. I hate it. VERY pixelated and I've noticed large white noise/pixels on scree, every time I use it. Not sure if this is a glitch on my camera or just the small sensor not able to handle situations in very low light. It's also very noisy and blurry. I'd rather have a sharper, more true life, less noisy picture, personally... but to each his own.
> 
> 24P mode surprisingly, doesn't seem to make too much of a difference in low light situations. It perhaps sharpens up the image slightly, but then it's a lot choppier when moving...
> 
> Overall, my assumption is that this camera isn't a low light killer, but to be fair, I haven't used the G10 or the HS900 in low light. I've watched some videos on youtube of these camera in low light and they appear superior.
> 
> The TD is very noisy in Low Lux mode, quite noisy in regular modes shot in low lit environments and quite smudgy/blurry looking. I'm talking very low light environments. In regular indoor shooting, in daylight, it's pretty decent and with only house lighting (at night) it's just ok.
> 
> 
> *AutoFocus*
> 
> Seems to do a good job in everything but very low light. Daylight, great, smile detection and face detection work great, as does the touch a spot on the LCD to lock focus. In low low light, the camera wasn't able to focus on things very well at all. Even if I touched a spot on the LCD, it still either hunted for long time before focusing or it didn't at all. Don't get me wrong, it could be worse, but it could also be a lot better.
> 
> 
> 
> 3-D
> 
> I shot some 3-D footage of myself swinging a golf club this afternoon. Very bright daylight. Again, it looked very good on the LCD and although I didn't buy this camera because of it's 3-D feature, at all, I was BLOWN AWAY with it's 3-D performance on my Panasonic Viera VT25 (54") TV. I've played 3-D video games and i've watched that Greek God Blu Ray movie and I mean, both were kind of cool but i could definitely see it getting old. NOT THIS. This 3-D footage taken with this camera was on a completely different level. I don't know why, or how, but it is. No question. It had such incredible depth to it, and the image quality (sharpness, color, etc) was virtually unaffected from 2-D. If you're buying this camera for it's 3-D feature, you will LOVE IT! So far, by far, the most impressive aspect of the camera. And like I said, I'm not a big 3-D guy. Incredible
> 
> *Compared To:*
> 
> I was able to do a few comparisons with to Panasonic HS900 and the Sony 700 and the Canon G10 at the store... viewed them last night on a SDHC card. The Canon had far less noise than the the TD10. It also appeared more film like in it's tones and saturation. The Panasonic also had less noise and was definitely sharper and even maybe a little smoother. More saturated colors, too. The 700 Sony seemed very similar but with slightly less noise in low light.
> 
> Take these comparisons with a grain of salt. By no means was this a strict, controlled environment test.
> 
> 
> This is getting pretty long and i'm tired, let me know if you have any question. I have a couple for you guys.
> 
> 
> I'm using a 17" Macbook Pro. When I take the SDHC card and plug it into my Mac, I can't even view the videos from the Sony. Nothing happens. I've heard you can't use Sony's software (that's included) but can you not even view your videos on the computer??? ** Please let me know **.
> 
> If I connect the TD10 via USB from the camcorder HD, same thing. No videos, nothing.
> 
> 
> Also, when you click on certain frame rates and resolutions and KBPS options on the menu of the camcorder, it shows line of about 5 icons at the bottom of the LCD - a disc meaning blu ray, the letters AVCHD, DVD, and a couple of other things. When you select 24P/24mbps it puts a red line through the AVCHD letters/icon. When you select 60P it puts a red line through the blu ray and the AVCHD letters/icons. When you select 1080P it puts a line through the AVCHD letters/icon.
> 
> Let me get this straight then..... AVCHD is a format that allows us to transfer the video data to a flash card, right?
> 
> With all frame rates, resolutions, mbps being equal, will this flash card play back your video in a slightly worse looking experience than playing it back straight from the hard drive, right?
> 
> Do I have to do anything on my TV to watch 24P video the way it is meant to be watched? This 24/60/96/120 stuff is confusing as hell. 3:2 pulldown, etc, etc. No idea what's going with all of that.
> 
> Can I burn 1080P, 24P, 60i to a blu ray? Just not 1080/60P?
> 
> Does viewing your video from a SDHC card on your computer change anything from viewing it on your TV?
> 
> I could go on and on, basically if one of you could let me know what I have to do to view my videos in the best possible quality I'd appreciate it.
> 
> 
> Again, let me know if you have any more questions regarding the camcorder. I'm not 100% sure i'm going to stick with the TD10, just because I've read the Panasonic HS900K has the best pure image quality out there, and the Canon, very close, with superior low light capability.



How did you physically hook up to the Panasonic TV? Did you hook it up directly via an hdmi cable or use the SDHC slot?


The only thing stopping me from buying one now is the ability to split the MVC files AND KEEPING THE ORIGINAL FORMAT AND QUALITY and the ability to play those files on my pc. I have an NVIDIA GTX 470 hooked up HDMI to a Panasonic TV just like yours(except it is the 58"). Even with 3DTV play I have yet to be able to successfully view a 3D file using the NVIDIA 3D player or Windows Media Player. Any feedback here would be appreciated.


----------



## sharpnicle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3Dmadman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing stopping me from buying one now is the ability to split the MVC files AND KEEPING THE ORIGINAL FORMAT AND QUALITY and the ability to play those files on my pc. I have an NVIDIA GTX 470 hooked up HDMI to a Panasonic TV just like yours(except it is the 58"). Even with 3DTV play I have yet to be able to successfully view a 3D file using the NVIDIA 3D player or Windows Media Player. Any feedback here would be appreciated.



The splitting and storage issue is imo solved, you can edit each video stream of a td10 artifact in vegas10d now.

while the latter depends on software, it is said stereoscopic is on the way to surport MVC codec, the only problem is time, I think


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/20430152
> 
> 
> Not trying to win. Just pointing out that no company is perfect. Google any of them and you'll find lots of unhappy customers, and horror stories about bad service. The JVC camcorder may have a flaw with focus in the right lens. I haven't seen it in mine yet, but it's shown up in a few AVS members' camcorders.
> 
> 
> I'm also not doubting your trust in the Sony video ecosystem. I understand your loyalty. If the Sony had been first to market, I'd probably own one instead of a JVC. That said, I'm extremely happy with the JVC TD1 so far. I think the image quality is stellar for a consumer level camcorder. I also think it's likely that I'll own a second generation 3D camcorder next year.



Joe, for me it is not about searching the internet for a few who got lemons. It is about putting up a list of features available by each camera. I'm not talking just about a button on the device here. I'm talking about the support infrastructure and cost of ownership.

In your case and the case of most who post here, being satisfied with a point and shoot, I don't ever plan to edit, mindset, the JVC will do the trick. Some will want the next step and need to make a BD-R to play ( icerat4 ) I need not just a complete edit system but when I want to pop in a wireless microphone with IFB capability, add a mattebox with rotation, add XLR audio in, add a 250 ft remote control, etc etc, I see the Sony is just a much longer list of automatic capability. Most people don't need this and don't care. If I accidently get a lemon then I also know Sony will stand behind it. Track record! Just little stuff like designing the camera front with a mounting flange for lens accessories, like a TP, mattebox, and lens shade. Of course it can be done with the JVC too but it is bulky using rails.


BTW Postman just delivered my long run battery. Amazon had the Sony 100 class battery cheaper than the Sony Style charges for the 70. and 1/3 the price of Best Buy. Best Buy accessories for Sony are outrageously priced.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iWATCH3D* /forum/post/20430290
> 
> 
> I've recenly uploaded my first video taken with Sony HDR-TD10 in MVC/AVC mode and edited in Vegas 10.0d, you can find it on Youtube by searching for "Sony HDR-TD10 3D MVC sample " ( as I can't yet post links ) and for the full 3840x1080 download head to 3DVision-blog dot com and find the relevant post. Let me know what you think of the quality.
> 
> One last thing, I am really envy of all of you who are now getting deliveries of this cam, as I'm in UK and I've been told shipments might start from end of May the earliest, damn you... I want one now!



Enjoyed your video, very nice steady shots. Hope you post some tips on how you worked in Vegas 10d. I've had my problems with it but I think I have most of them worked out now. Still on the 3D learning curve.


Here's the link to your fine piece:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIFVuk0dYZI


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20431579
> 
> 
> 
> BTW Postman just delivered my long run battery. Amazon had the Sony 100 class battery cheaper than the Sony Style charges for the 70. and 1/3 the price of Best Buy. Best Buy accessories for Sony are outrageously priced.




If I recall correctly you got several interesting accessories for the Sony 3D Camcorder. Do you have a link to where to locate them on Amazon? If that is too much trouble just identifying which battery would be helpful as I didn't see the exact type of battery listed in the specs. Thanks. By the way did your camera show within the time frame Amazon had projected?


----------



## Don Landis

Standard battery for TD10 is a NPFV70 and the long one is NPFV100.


Do not get the NPF*H*70 as this is an older type that will not work in the new cameras but the F*V* version will work in the older cameras.


Hoodman Loupe

Monopod Manfrotto carbon fiber

32 GB class 10 SD card


Jury is still out on the lens shade/mattebox as I need to take measurements. Besides, the stock mattebox will need a notch milled out to fit around the manual adjustment knob so this accessory is not for everyone. Sony has a lens shade custom made but this is accessory for the prosumer NXCAM model to be shipped later in the Summer. It has no mattebox features either and will not work on the TD10 as the NXCAM has a mounting screw for it.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20432326
> 
> 
> Standard battery for TD10 is a NPFV70 and the long one is NPFV100.
> 
> 
> Do not get the NPF*H*70 as this is an older type that will not work in the new cameras but the F*V* version will work in the older cameras.
> 
> 
> Hoodman Loupe
> 
> Monopod Manfrotto carbon fiber
> 
> 32 GB class 10 SD card
> 
> 
> Jury is still out on the lens shade/mattebox as I need to take measurements. Besides, the stock mattebox will need a notch milled out to fit around the manual adjustment knob so this accessory is not for everyone. Sony has a lens shade custom made but this is accessory for the prosumer NXCAM model to be shipped later in the Summer. It has no mattebox features either and will not work on the TD10 as the NXCAM has a mounting screw for it.



Thanks! You also helped answer an unasked question I had as to whether some of my older Sony batteries would work. (On a side note, I see Amazon is still saying that the Sony 3D Camcorder has not yet been released though I do have an impending shipping date. Has anyone's order been filled by Amazon yet?)


----------



## RickD_99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20423297
> 
> http://file:///C:/Users/Icerat/Downloads/00004.MTS



icerat4:


When I downloaded this file and transferred it to a thumb drive and tried playing it through the USB port on my Samsung PN50C7000 3DTV it would not play (Samsung manual indicates mts format is not supported). When I changed the file extension to ts format the file played but only in 2D. Is there a workaround for getting the file to play back in native 3D on my Samsung?


----------



## harob111

I hooked it up with an HDMI cable through a Pioneer SC37 receiver.

How would someone like to answer a couple of my questions under my review considering I spent 30 minutes try give you guys an honest review on the product.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *harob111* /forum/post/20432647
> 
> 
> I hooked it up with an HDMI cable through a Pioneer SC37 receiver.
> 
> How would someone like to answer a couple of my questions under my review considering I spent 30 minutes try give you guys an honest review on the product.




I much appreciated your review though without having the camera yet I'm in no position to offer any answers. I was glad to read that the color saturation issues with the Sony could be lived with. Frank may have some thoughts on the Canon as he is pairing two of Canon's top of the line camcorders to make some pretty impressive 3D with high pq. When I was reading the reviews last year Frank's Canon camcorder (Vixia HFS21) seemed to be ranked at the very top and I doubt if for non 3D whether JVC or Sony's offerings even hold a candle to it. It is also one of the few camcorders to still offer a viewfinder which is a big plus if you are shooting in bright light.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20432540
> 
> 
> Thanks! You also helped answer an unasked question I had as to whether some of my older Sony batteries would work. (On a side note, I see Amazon is still saying that the Sony 3D Camcorder has not yet been released though I do have an impending shipping date. Has anyone's order been filled by Amazon yet?)



Yes, Mine is on the UPS truck "to be delivered before end of the day" per tracking. Normally they are here by 2PM but are running late today. I have to sign for it so have to hang around all day. When they delivered stuff yesterday they were here before 9AM. Go figure.


----------



## harob111




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20432733
> 
> 
> I much appreciated your review though without having the camera yet I'm in no position to offer any answers. I was glad to read that the color saturation issues with the Sony could be lived with. Frank may have some thoughts on the Canon as he is pairing two of Canon's top of the line camcorders to make some pretty impressive 3D with high pq. When I was reading the reviews last year Frank's Canon camcorder (Vixia HFS21) seemed to be ranked at the very top and I doubt if for non 3D whether JVC or Sony's offerings even hold a candle to it. It is also one of the few camcorders to still offer a viewfinder which is a big plus if you are shooting in bright light.




Cool, how is he doing 3-D with Canon? I don't believe canon has a 3-D camcorder out at this time???


----------



## rajibo

Received an email from Sony this week that the camera should ship on the 13th. It 5PM on the 13th with no indication that this is going to happen.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> I'm using a 17" Macbook Pro. When I take the SDHC card and plug it into my Mac, I can't even view the videos from the Sony. Nothing happens. I've heard you can't use Sony's software (that's included) but can you not even view your videos on the computer??? ** Please let me know **.
> 
> If I connect the TD10 via USB from the camcorder HD, same thing. No videos, nothing.






harob111- A couple years ago I wanted to get my daughter a camcorder and we both favored the Sony like I use the SR12 but unfortunately, Sony doesn't write its software for Mac OSx and that is what she uses. So I shopped around and had to buy a Canon of similar style as the SR12 but the Canon software is Mac compatible.


While it is possible to extract files off the Sony camcorders using just the USB port in Windows, you don't get the meta data transferred and the file name is more difficult to understand. I'm not sure about Mac OS but I would think you should see the files.

Now being able to play the files is another story. For that you will need Vegas and that definitely will not work on a Mac. Basically, I've always considered Sony software to be a Windows, not Mac system. If you are strictly Mac then you really should be looking at other software options.

The only way you could make use of the camcorder TD10 is to store your video clips on the SD card and put the SD card in the camcorder and play through that via the hdmi cable. The firmware in the camcorder allows you to do it that way. So, without a windows based PC you will be limited in how you can use the TD10.

Now here's a suggestion as I know this will also work as I have done it here with my Macbook Pro. Install Parallels on your Mac. Then install Windows ( I did it with XP) then install Vegas in the windows load of your Mac under Parallels.


OK, now for the bad news- 3D editing is extremely taxing on computer hardware. At best all I was ever able to do on the Mac was Vegas in SD mode. For even HD I had to resort to the OS10 side of the Mac and use Final Cut Pro. That worked well in HD with an external Hard drive using the FW800 connection.


If you really want to use Vegas and the TD10 in 3D you best plan to get a powerful PC with raid 0 striped hard drives and Quad core processor. Else, you will be in for a lot of frustration.


----------



## sbg777




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajibo* /forum/post/20433159
> 
> 
> Received an email from Sony this week that the camera should ship on the 13th. It 5PM on the 13th with no indication that this is going to happen.



Yep, I've had it with Sony. After several phone calls and no firm ship date I canceled my order today.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *harob111* /forum/post/20433063
> 
> 
> Cool, how is he doing 3-D with Canon? I don't believe canon has a 3-D camcorder out at this time???



Frank is our resident AVS 3D pioneer. He built his own remotely operated 3D rig that he calls R2D3.







It consists of two high end consumer Canon camcorders mounted on an RC chassis. He edits in Vegas or Premiere Pro (with the Cineform Neo3D plug-in). He's recorded hundreds (maybe thousands) of hours of wildlife and nature footage. The quality of the 3D images he records exceeds that of these new JVC and Sony 3D camcorders by a substantial margin, IMO. The tradeoff is that working with the 3D footage can be a bit more complex, and (unless I'm mistaken) there are still unresolved issues with authoring to Blu-ray.


----------



## bigbarney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pteittinen* /forum/post/20430606
> 
> 
> The disc will always have to be authored. That's what I mean by manipulation. Does the Sony create the entire BD-compliant directory tree ready for burning on a BD-R, or do you have to arrange the footage in an NLE first and output/render an ISO image?



Disk authoring and data manipulation are 2 completely different things. Don't confuse them. In the days of DV(avi) there was heavy data manipulation required prior to a disk author. In today's world that data manipulation does not take place (or it doesn't have to anyway). Creating directory trees for a BD structure has NOTHING to do with manipulating (rendering) data to prepare for disk and is furthermore an extremely easy task.




> Quote:
> So are you saying JVC decided to simply create a new proprietary spec of their own on a whim and disregard existing AVC/MP4 specs?



No... YOU said that... I didn't. What I said was they varied from what was considered normal Blu Ray standards. It therefore stands to reason as to why people are having difficulty manipulating its contents.



> Quote:
> So in case someone thinks I'm saying toy A is rubbish and toy B is better... well, I'm not.



I never said you were saying such a thing. What you've said is that JVC followed the avc/mvc spec and therefore Vegas SHOULD have been able to work with it.... and that's wrong.


----------



## Don Landis

Finally, at 5:30PM I got the TD10. Going through the menus now to answer some of the questionable issues that came up over the last month many were concerned about and no real answers, not even from the manual-


The big one for me was the ability to put the camcorder in manual mode in 3D. Here's the truth-


While the TD10 comes preset for manual 3D depth adjustment from the factory, the setting can easily be changed to:

1. Exposure

2. Shutter speed

3. Focus

4. Iris

5. AE shift.

6. 3D Depth adjustment.

7. White Balance shift

But not all in 3D mode


While focus, exposure, and 3D Depth can be adjusted and switched with the front button, the iris, AR shift, shutter speed, and white balance shift cannot. cannot in 3D mode I'll look for more later on but the key one I was interested in locking down to manual was focus.


There is also a "reset" selection you can do to put the camera back in default mode. This is especially good for the 3D Depth.



The Lens accessory mounting flange is 74mm in diameter.


----------



## bravia3D

I look forward to see footage shot from you Don, should be good!


----------



## Joseph Clark

Me, too.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20433739
> 
> 
> Finally, at 5:30PM I got the TD10. Going through the menus now to answer some of the questionable issues that came up over the last month many were concerned about and no real answers, not even from the manual-
> 
> 
> The big one for me was the ability to put the camcorder in manual mode in 3D. Here's the truth-
> 
> 
> While the TD10 comes preset for manual 3D depth adjustment from the factory, the setting can easily be changed to:
> 
> 1. Exposure
> 
> 2. Shutter speed
> 
> 3. Focus
> 
> 4. Iris
> 
> 5. AE shift.
> 
> 6. 3D Depth adjustment.
> 
> 7. White Balance shift
> 
> But not all in 3D mode
> 
> 
> While focus, exposure, and 3D Depth can be adjusted and switched with the front button, the iris, AR shift, shutter speed, and white balance shift cannot. cannot in 3D mode I'll look for more later on but the key one I was interested in locking down to manual was focus.
> 
> 
> There is also a "reset" selection you can do to put the camera back in default mode. This is especially good for the 3D Depth.
> 
> 
> 
> The Lens accessory mounting flange is 74mm in diameter.




nice isnt it


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20433739
> 
> 
> Finally, at 5:30PM I got the TD10. Going through the menus now to answer some of the questionable issues that came up over the last month many were concerned about and no real answers, not even from the manual-
> 
> 
> The big one for me was the ability to put the camcorder in manual mode in 3D. Here's the truth-
> 
> 
> While the TD10 comes preset for manual 3D depth adjustment from the factory, the setting can easily be changed to:
> 
> 1. Exposure
> 
> 2. Shutter speed
> 
> 3. Focus
> 
> 4. Iris
> 
> 5. AE shift.
> 
> 6. 3D Depth adjustment.
> 
> 7. White Balance shift
> 
> But not all in 3D mode
> 
> 
> While focus, exposure, and 3D Depth can be adjusted and switched with the front button, the iris, AR shift, shutter speed, and white balance shift cannot. cannot in 3D mode I'll look for more later on but the key one I was interested in locking down to manual was focus.
> 
> 
> There is also a "reset" selection you can do to put the camera back in default mode. This is especially good for the 3D Depth.
> 
> 
> 
> The Lens accessory mounting flange is 74mm in diameter.



Great news and I just checked Amazon and see mine is in transit with an estimated arrival midweek.


Oh - while you and others are playing around with the settings maybe someone can come up with a way to trick the camera to take 3D stills. Apparently this can be done with the Panasonic 3D consumer camera which also does not list taking stills as a feature, so why not the Sony?


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20434313
> 
> 
> Oh - while you and others are playing around with the settings maybe someone can come up with a way to trick the camera to take 3D stills. Apparently this can be done with the Panasonic 3D consumer camera which also does not list taking stills as a feature, so why not the Sony?



On several recent non-3D Sony camcorders I've used, the stored pixel count is increased to higher quality when a still is taken. The image sensors in those models have a lot more pixels than the sensors in the TD10. Further, with all the processing Sony does for the 3D image, perhaps there aren't many extra pixels available to make a 3D still worthwhile as a seperate function. (speculation)


For many 2D uses, stills captured from selected video frames have been good for me, and I get to pick the exact moment. This is often a matter of luck with delierate still shots, and easier to pick from video. The same would apply to 3D. Can Vegas 10d capture 3D stills from a video stream?


I imagine 3D picture frames becoming commonplace soon, displaying both video clips and stills in 3D. The new crop of 3D camcorders is going to get us there. There is still some reluctance from those who think 3D is uncomfortable. With the TD10, 3D is pleasant, simple and perhaps a bit addictive. The few video clips I took with my TD10 thus far are amazing, all credit going to the TD10 automatic settings... (End of mini-rant.)


----------



## harob111




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20433187
> 
> 
> harob111- A couple years ago I wanted to get my daughter a camcorder and we both favored the Sony like I use the SR12 but unfortunately, Sony doesn't write its software for Mac OSx and that is what she uses. So I shopped around and had to buy a Canon of similar style as the SR12 but the Canon software is Mac compatible.
> 
> 
> While it is possible to extract files off the Sony camcorders using just the USB port in Windows, you don't get the meta data transferred and the file name is more difficult to understand. I'm not sure about Mac OS but I would think you should see the files.
> 
> Now being able to play the files is another story. For that you will need Vegas and that definitely will not work on a Mac. Basically, I've always considered Sony software to be a Windows, not Mac system. If you are strictly Mac then you really should be looking at other software options.
> 
> The only way you could make use of the camcorder TD10 is to store your video clips on the SD card and put the SD card in the camcorder and play through that via the hdmi cable. The firmware in the camcorder allows you to do it that way. So, without a windows based PC you will be limited in how you can use the TD10.
> 
> Now here's a suggestion as I know this will also work as I have done it here with my Macbook Pro. Install Parallels on your Mac. Then install Windows ( I did it with XP) then install Vegas in the windows load of your Mac under Parallels.
> 
> 
> OK, now for the bad news- 3D editing is extremely taxing on computer hardware. At best all I was ever able to do on the Mac was Vegas in SD mode. For even HD I had to resort to the OS10 side of the Mac and use Final Cut Pro. That worked well in HD with an external Hard drive using the FW800 connection.
> 
> 
> If you really want to use Vegas and the TD10 in 3D you best plan to get a powerful PC with raid 0 striped hard drives and Quad core processor. Else, you will be in for a lot of frustration.






Thanks for the info, Don.

I was at the camera store again today and the the guy helping me said I can view the movies from the TD10 if I download this program called VLC. Right now, as far as I can tell, I can't even just view my videos from the TD10 on my Mac Powerbook. I understand Sony's editing Vegas software doesn't work with Mac's so therefore I can't edit the videos, but should I need to download some 3rd party program just to view my videos?

I'm just looking to view the videos I shot with the TD10 on my computer and export them to either youtube or quicktime. No editing.

Is this feasible?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *harob111* /forum/post/20434911
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info, Don.
> 
> I was at the camera store again today and the the guy helping me said I can view the movies from the TD10 if I download this program called VLC. Right now, as far as I can tell, I can't even just view my videos from the TD10 on my Mac Powerbook. I understand Sony's editing Vegas software doesn't work with Mac's so therefore I can't edit the videos, but should I need to download some 3rd party program just to view my videos?
> 
> I'm just looking to view the videos I shot with the TD10 on my computer and export them to either youtube or quicktime. No editing.
> 
> Is this feasible?



Macs are really strange isolationist devices. When I went to the Final Cut training classes I got so annoyed at the arrogance of the instructors. When I tried to do something quite natural and FCP crashed or just became unresponsive, they tried to explain that what I did wasn't in the Apple playbook and I should not do that! So here's how to work in a Mac world and get along-- Always stick with MOV quicktime files. You do that and your MAC will work trouble free. That's why my Macbook Pro sits on the shelf collecting dust! Don't take this wrong, I like my ipad even though it has it's own world too but I don't thing Macs are the best all around video editing tool. Vegas isn't perfect but it recognizes more formats than all the other editing systems out there. Eventually, it will support JVC too, just not immediately.

Having said that- I do believe you should be able to import all your 2D video from the TD10 to a Mac and play the files in quicktime. The 3D stuff, No I think this will not work as I believe the Mac and Apple has not yet heard of stereoscopic video. Could be wrong though. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to explore this as I' have too much learning to do in the PC world with all this new 3D stuff. Don't have the time to drag out the Mac and test for curiosity sake.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> come up with a way to trick the camera to take 3D stills



Don't think so. I looked and the still picture function is isolated from 3D. If you try to do anything related a window pops up saying "Cannot do this in 3D mode. Switch to 2D mode"

When in 2D all sorts of still pictures options open up to you. In 3D you really only get one recording format but the option of recording to internal memory or ext. memory still is available.


If you really need to do stills for a project, simply shoot video, then in Vegas scan the clip for your best shots and save the frame. Vegas works with 3D stills but not the camcorder.

The Bloggie3D shoots nice stills in 3D.


----------



## icerat4

up a little early huh don


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20434739
> 
> 
> On several recent non-3D Sony camcorders I've used, the stored pixel count is increased to higher quality when a still is taken. The image sensors in those models have a lot more pixels than the sensors in the TD10. Further, with all the processing Sony does for the 3D image, perhaps there aren't many extra pixels available to make a 3D still worthwhile as a seperate function. (speculation)
> 
> 
> For many 2D uses, stills captured from selected video frames have been good for me, and I get to pick the exact moment. This is often a matter of luck with delierate still shots, and easier to pick from video. The same would apply to 3D. Can Vegas 10d capture 3D stills from a video stream?
> 
> 
> I imagine 3D picture frames becoming commonplace soon, displaying both video clips and stills in 3D. The new crop of 3D camcorders is going to get us there. There is still some reluctance from those who think 3D is uncomfortable. With the TD10, 3D is pleasant, simple and perhaps a bit addictive. The few video clips I took with my TD10 thus far are amazing, all credit going to the TD10 automatic settings... (End of mini-rant.)




Richard- Glad you got your TD10. Isn't the autostereo screen amazing? I actually forgot how high quality it is. One of my experiments is to try and use it to display 3D live from Vegas. I know this is possible in 2D on my SR12 camcorder but the TD10 is quite a different animal. You are lucky not to have gotten the JVC since the JVC screen is so low res by comparison.


I agree with your future predictions 100%.


So far the only thing I'm a little disappointed in is the lack of having manual iris in the 3D mode. Happy to have at least manual focus, however.


3D still from Vegas- I've only done anaglyph and that works fine. I haven't tried SBS and then try to play projected from my 3D projector.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20435015
> 
> 
> up a little early huh don



Been resting while a rendering was working.


----------



## Philsan

Hi.

Can someone do an audio test in a silent room?

I had a Sony HDR-CX700 and there was a background noise: multiupload.com/BIPSG02B6Y 

Moreover, the CX700 had a "wave" default.

The rocks in this shot seems to move: multiupload.com/B64RS1SKYH


----------



## harob111

Thanks again Don....... I hear you about Mac's being elitist type devices.

Can you quickly tell me how to view my videos on my computer then? When I hook up the TD10 via USB2 either straight to the camera or with the a card reader, I get a folder on my desktop... from there, If I click on it, it shows a bunch of icons that don't do anything. If I open imovie I can't import anything...

Thoughts?


----------



## smacarth




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *harob111* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks again Don....... I hear you about Mac's being elitist type devices.
> 
> Can you quickly tell me how to view my videos on my computer then? When I hook up the TD10 via USB2 either straight to the camera or with the a card reader, I get a folder on my desktop... from there, If I click on it, it shows a bunch of icons that don't do anything. If I open imovie I can't import anything...
> 
> Thoughts?



Hi,


I received my TD10 a couple of days ago shot some 3d video and still photos. I was able to easily import the photos into my iMac using iPhoto and a 2d version of the video into iMovie. I also run Windows 7 on my iMac and will be trying the PMB and Vegas 10d. I'll let you know how it works. Let me know if you have any questions. This is a great forum for learning!


----------



## pteittinen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbarney* /forum/post/20433661
> 
> 
> Disk authoring and data manipulation are 2 completely different things. Don't confuse them. In the days of DV(avi) there was heavy data manipulation required prior to a disk author. In today's world that data manipulation does not take place (or it doesn't have to anyway). Creating directory trees for a BD structure has NOTHING to do with manipulating (rendering) data to prepare for disk and is furthermore an extremely easy task.



It's _not_ your prerogative to define the exclusive definition of a general verb I've used and then use that definition to try to win an argument. By "manipulation" I referred to any action performed on the data required to make it play on a Blu-ray player other than burning the data on disc as-is. This is a pointless exercise anyway since BD compliancy has nothing to do with the subject in the first place; Vegas is not limited to BD compliant sources only.



> Quote:
> No... YOU said that... I didn't.



Huh, what? That's not what I've been saying _at all_. My point has all along been that JVC file format is _not_ an exclusive one, but adheres to the latest revision of the AVC spec, and had Sony Creative implemented the spec fully -- and not only the part which lets it support Sony's choice of MVC format -- Vegas would open files produced by JVC's 3D camcorder.



> Quote:
> What I said was they varied from what was considered normal Blu Ray standards.



One last time: source adhering to Blu-ray standards has *zero* bearing on the matter. Vegas already allows me to create 3D Blu-rays from assets that are anything but Blu-ray compliant.


----------



## fuall

Can anyone give suggestions for a Sony brand case? The smaller, the better.


----------



## fuall

Can anyone suggest a good 3d blu ray player that can play the SDHC card directly? I have a Panasonic VT25, and it appears the MVC file will play only in 2d, and not 3d when I stick the SDHC card into the TV.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fuall* /forum/post/20435226
> 
> 
> Can anyone suggest a good 3d blu ray player that can play the SDHC card directly? I have a Panasonic VT25, and it appears the MVC file will play only in 2d, and not 3d when I stick the SDHC card into the TV.






use the hdmi thru the camcorder. this gives you the highest quality


----------



## fuall




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20435270
> 
> 
> use the hdmi thru the camcorder. this gives you the highest quality



Already did that, but I'd rather keep all videos in SDHC cards and not have to keep connecting the cable to the TV, or transferring video back to the camcorder just to watch my recordings


----------



## smacarth




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fuall* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anyone give suggestions for a Sony brand case? The smaller, the better.



I use a Tenba case. Perfect fit. See attached photo


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smacarth* /forum/post/20435297
> 
> 
> I use a Tenba case. Perfect fit. See attached photo



Not a Sony case, but Amazon had (has?) a promo offering a free case with the camera. Maybe it is a Tenba? Looks similar anyway.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fuall* /forum/post/20435280
> 
> 
> Already did that, but I'd rather keep all videos in SDHC cards and not have to keep connecting the cable to the TV, or transferring video back to the camcorder just to watch my recordings






thats not going to happen.I bought a external hd to store movies until a blu ray burner comes out. other wise i am sure what your doing will not work. But i could be wrong as other finally get this unit more will share there experiments


----------



## fuall

What model is this Tenba bag and where to purchase it?


----------



## fuall




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20435313
> 
> 
> thats not going to happen.I bought a external hd to store movies until a blu ray burner comes out. other wise i am sure what your doing will not work. But i could be wrong as other finally get this unit more will share there experiments




I used to have the Panasonic 3d camcorder STD-750 (sold it just right after the Sony HDR-TD10 was announced) and was able to insert the SDHC cards in either the blu ray or the panasonic vt25 tv to watch 3d movies directly.


----------



## bigbarney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pteittinen* /forum/post/20435179
> 
> 
> It's _not_ your prerogative to define the exclusive definition of a general verb I've used and then use that definition to try to win an argument.



LOL!

Please let me remind you that *YOU* came up with the term "manipulation".... not me.




> Quote:
> My point has all along been that JVC file format is _not_ an exclusive one



Mmmm... strange because I was under the impression that the JVC camera was the *ONLY[/]device that could playback the JVC footage and that there was NO software ANYWHERE that would deal with this stuff. But then I guess this is ALL SCS's fault right










Do you have any idea how silly you're sounding?





Quote:
One last time: source adhering to Blu-ray standards has zero bearing on the matter. Vegas already allows me to create 3D Blu-rays from assets that are anything but Blu-ray compliant.

Click to expand...


Zero bearing? So I guess you can author a 3D mvc dvd and place it in your dvd player and play it back on your 4:3 CRT tv too right. Or maybe you can upload your 3D mvc to YouTube and we can all watch your clip in 3D. Don't be silly.... 3D mvc is ALL ABOUT Blu Ray and has little to do with anything else. Under that pretense alone it was just plain dumb of JVC to stick it in a MP4 container and mix it up with an audio type that's considered more of an Apple topic than anything else. I mean really.... how far off the mark can some one get?? Now... why did they do this? My pure guess would be that they were trying to cheap out of paying licensing fees somewhere along the line.... it wouldn't be the first time.

Vegas BTW doesn't even directly open a AAC file... you need APPLE quicktime on your machine to do it... and it's always been that way*


----------



## icerat4

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
Standard battery for TD10 is a NPFV70 and the long one is NPFV100.


.





Thanks Don npfv100 list everywheres at 159 Amazon 48 buck














Thanks ordered 1 up


----------



## Joseph Clark

Quote:

Originally Posted by *bigbarney* 
Mmmm... strange because I was under the impression that the JVC camera was the *ONLY[/]device that could playback the JVC footage and that there was NO software ANYWHERE that would deal with this stuff. But then I guess this is ALL SCS's fault right







*
*
As an FYI only (don't want to be a part of this, since it's a little too contentious for my taste), Arcsoft Total Media Theater 5 pllays back the JVC MVC mp4 files in 3D. Of course, lots of different software plays its MTS files in Win7.


Just sayin'.







*


----------



## bigbarney

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* 
As an FYI only (don't want to be a part of this, since it's a little too contentious for my taste), Arcsoft Total Media Theater 5 pllays back the JVC MVC mp4 files in 3D. Of course, lots of different software plays its MTS files in Win7.


Just sayin'.








Thank you.... good to know.


----------



## SYOTR

Quote:

Originally Posted by *fuall* 
I used to have the Panasonic 3d camcorder STD-750 (sold it just right after the Sony HDR-TD10 was announced) and was able to insert the SDHC cards in either the blu ray or the panasonic vt25 tv to watch 3d movies directly.
Do you know the file type and directory structure that the Panasonic camcorder used when storing on the sd card? Perhaps a specific directory structure is required for the TV to locate the files.


----------



## Don Landis

I'm going shopping today for a case. While somethings I can order on line a case is one I want to buy hands on first. The one shown here is very close to what I'm looking for, however. Ideally, I want a case to drop the camera in vertically and have it attach to a waist belt but optionally have a shoulder strap too. Plus one side pocket for extra batteries, a ziplock bag or two to use as a rain cover, lens cloth, wireless mic and an ear bud.


Bad news- My Hoodman works fine for the Bloggie screen but is too small for the TD10. If you all buy a Hoodman or the loupe, The model number should be a HD450. I tried the hoodman yesterday and it did a good job in bright sunlight so I may not order a second loupe. Besides the loupe only works in 2D. Hoodman also folds down flat so it will carry easier in the belt bag. Loupe is an extra case on the belt.



icerat4 Sony will have a BluRay burner for 3D soon but soon may be after CES in January. Likely it will just be an upgrade to their present one.


IDEA- I don't like the big heavy neck lanyards for cameras. What works best for me for these little consumer cameras is an ID badge strap with a split keyring to attach it. I get lots of these going to trade shows. I have a "Canon" branded one on my Sony TD10 now. One year at CES I had a Panasonic neck lanyard on my Sony camcorder and a Sony Rep at their both got really upset and gave me a Sony one that only the employees were getting that year. He just didn't like the idea of my Sony Camcorder having a Panasonic strap. LOL!


----------



## Frank

Quote:

Originally Posted by *SYOTR* 
Do you know the file type and directory structure that the Panasonic camcorder used when storing on the sd card? Perhaps a specific directory structure is required for the TV to locate the files.
I brought this up quite a while ago in a thread that went largely unnoticed.

It seems to be propriety to Panasonic.


----------



## fuall

Quote:

Originally Posted by *SYOTR* 
Do you know the file type and directory structure that the Panasonic camcorder used when storing on the sd card? Perhaps a specific directory structure is required for the TV to locate the files.


file type i believe is mts. I am able to play the hdr-td10 sdhc card on the panasonic tv vt25 directly (sdhc slot in the tv), but as I said it only plays the sony mvc files in 2d, not 3d.


----------



## icerat4

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
icerat4 Sony will have a BluRay burner for 3D soon but soon may be after CES in January. Likely it will just be an upgrade to their present one.


!






so 8 more months





















better get another ext hd


----------



## Don Landis

I reviewed this with icerat4 last week. One needs to understand the significance of a "media drive" vs. just a computer formatted hard drive. It is true that media drive or memory card needs to be formatted in a special way. The easiest way is to format it with the device, like the TD10. Any card or hard drive will work if properly powered but it won't be recognized as a media drive until you install the proper folder structure. For the hard drive to be used as a "mass storage" device to be available for playback the folder structure of the media must be like it is on the BD. I know for HD the format sets up the files in a BDMV folder just like on the disk. When you format the hard drive on the TD10 it builds a very lengthy folder structure before it copies your files.


There is one more thing I discovered with the Sony TD10. I could not get the old WD passport drive to be recognized at all at first. Why? because I used some off the shelf cable adapters I had that work otherwise for other connection like to my laptop. Not for the TD10. So, I went to the box and got out the Sony cables that came with the TD10 and voila! it connected and powered the WD Passport, formatted and copied some of my test shooting of 3D over. Later tonight I will test the drive connect to my various USB inputs in my Home theater. I understand PS3 is known to support this. We'll see.


----------



## Don Landis

Quote:

Originally Posted by *icerat4* 
so 8 more months





















better get another ext hd








Soon ( 'r than Sony ) I'll give you the step by step procedure to make a simple BD-R of 23Gb of your work using your computer with a bluray burner drive and Vegas 10d.


----------



## Richard Adams

Quote:

Originally Posted by *harob111* 
Thanks again Don....... I hear you about Mac's being elitist type devices.

Can you quickly tell me how to view my videos on my computer then? When I hook up the TD10 via USB2 either straight to the camera or with the a card reader, I get a folder on my desktop... from there, If I click on it, it shows a bunch of icons that don't do anything. If I open imovie I can't import anything...

Thoughts?
Macs have innovation, and dedicated brand recognition due to the brilliant marketing strategy of a Silicon Valley acquaintance named Guy Kawasaki. Check out his many books.


Many Mac users install extras to have the flexibility to also run Windows software, and they have some nifty tools that PCs can't run. The good with the good.


On the TD10, it may help to select Mass Storage USB mode like this.


MENU > SETUP > USB CONNECT SETTING > select MASS STORAGE


The icons "don't do anything" are the folders that contain the files inside the TD10 that you are accessing though the Mac. This makes the TD10 appear as a hard drive to the Mac while the TD10 is in "mass storage mode."


- .MTS Video files can be found here:


100MSDCF > BDMV > STREAM > .MTS files


- .JPG 2D still shot photos can be found here:


DCIM > 100MSDCF > .JPG 2D still images


----------



## Richard Adams

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
There is one more thing I discovered with the Sony TD10. I could not get the old WD passport drive to be recognized at all at first. Why? because I used some off the shelf cable adapters I had that work otherwise for other connection like to my laptop. Not for the TD10. So, I went to the box and got out the Sony cables that came with the TD10 and voila! it connected and powered the WD Passport, formatted and copied some of my test shooting of 3D over. Later tonight I will test the drive connect to my various USB inputs in my Home theater. I understand PS3 is known to support this. We'll see.








Indeed, the Sony supplied (in the box) USB adapter cable that has the female USB on one end is needed to get the TD10 to talk to external storage devices, while the gray Sony supplied cable is for connecting to PCs, where the TD10 behaves like a storage / media source device.


Using the correct cable, I tried a SIIG model JU-SA0912-S1 USB enclosure with a WD Scorpio Blue WD25000BEVT drive inside, and the Sony TD10 would neither power it nor recognize this when I used external power. It did work with a notebook computer connected in between, and the TD10 again in Mass Storage Mode with the grey Sony cable.


Using the Sony cable with the female USB, the TD10 did recognize various USB flash drives, including Micro SD to USB adapters. Good to hear that an older Passport Drive worked too. I'll give that a try. Thanks Don.


Excellent point about the PS3. That would be a Grey cable connection to the TD10. The PS3 also has a free Sony supplied video editor feature, which can make an easy upload to youtube. Has that editor been tried with TD10 MVC-3D?


Icerat4 shared with us that the newer Passport SE that has USB 3.0 and 2.0 does work. Has anyone conducted speed tests to see if the newer Passport version drive, that allows USB 3.0, works any faster than the older version that only does USB 2.0, while the drive is used in USB 2.0 mode, for example with the TD10 which is only USB 2.0?


----------



## Randy Walters

Hi, gang -


I just wanted to jump in, say hello, and mention that I'm a Mac user who has had the TD-10 for a few days now. A few quick notes:


I love the camera already. I've been viewing in 3D on a 46" Samsung LCD using shutter glasses. The image quality and 3D depth are remarkable. I can see no downside at all to the rather narrow distance between the lenses; whatever Sony's doing to compensate for it, it's working.


Particularly surprising is the macro capability. I moved in until I was about 2 inches away from a cupcake; on the LCD, it looked like a 3-foot cupcake floating 4 feet in front of the screen. Amazing, and in perfect focus and detail.


I *have* been able to use VLC to view *2D* movies on my Mac. It has the added advantage of supporting the 5.1 surround stream during playback.


I'm really not sweating bullets at this point about getting stereo video files on to the Mac for editing; I plan on doing that with a hardware fix. I have a decent high-end FCP setup going; broadcast monitor for color correction, Blackmagic Decklink video card for monitoring.


I'm planning on replacing the Decklink card with their new 3D Extreme card; this will let me capture the 3D as two separate video streams via HDMI, which I can then transcode to ProRes and edit in parallel (monitoring in 2D) in FCP. When finished, I can export movies of the two streams, and use the BMD Media Express software to play them and send them to the 3D LCD in full stereo 3D.


Kind of a kludge, but it should do the trick. I also do stereo 3D animation which I'm looking forward to viewing in the same way (no more anaglyph!) and plan to develop the chops to composite 3D video and animation together. A challenge, but fun.


In the meanwhile, if anyone finds something that will demux these two video streams, I'm all ears. I won't be springing for Vegas; though I can reboot into Windows, I'm staying with OS X software for production. A Windows demux utility for the short term would be interesting, though...










If anyone has questions about the camera or working on the Mac, I'll try my best... but remember, I'm trying to figure this all out, too.


P.S. - I forgot to mention that there is another Randy Walters on AVS who has been here for a long time, and has authored many, many posts. I'm not that Randy Walters!


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Randy Walters* /forum/post/20436163
> 
> 
> Hi, gang -
> 
> 
> I just wanted to jump in, say hello, and mention that I'm a Mac user who has had the TD-10 for a few days now. A few quick notes:
> 
> 
> I love the camera already. I've been viewing in 3D on a 46" Samsung LCD using shutter glasses. The image quality and 3D depth are remarkable. I can see no downside at all to the rather narrow distance between the lenses; whatever Sony's doing to compensate for it, it's working.
> 
> 
> Particularly surprising is the macro capability. I moved in until I was about 2 inches away from a cupcake; on the LCD, it looked like a 3-foot cupcake floating 4 feet in front of the screen. Amazing, and in perfect focus and detail.
> 
> 
> I *have* been able to use VLC to view *2D* movies on my Mac. It has the added advantage of supporting the 5.1 surround stream during playback.
> 
> 
> I'm really not sweating bullets at this point about getting stereo video files on to the Mac for editing; I plan on doing that with a hardware fix. I have a decent high-end FCP setup going; broadcast monitor for color correction, Blackmagic Decklink video card for monitoring.
> 
> 
> I'm planning on replacing the Decklink card with their new 3D Extreme card; this will let me capture the 3D as two separate video streams via HDMI, which I can then transcode to ProRes and edit in parallel (monitoring in 2D) in FCP. When finished, I can export movies of the two streams, and use the BMD Media Express software to play them and send them to the 3D LCD in full stereo 3D.
> 
> 
> Kind of a kludge, but it should do the trick. I also do stereo 3D animation which I'm looking forward to viewing in the same way (no more anaglyph!) and plan to develop the chops to composite 3D video and animation together. A challenge, but fun.
> 
> 
> In the meanwhile, if anyone finds something that will demux these two video streams, I'm all ears. I won't be springing for Vegas; though I can reboot into Windows, I'm staying with OS X software for production. A Windows demux utility for the short term would be interesting, though...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone has questions about the camera or working on the Mac, I'll try my best... but remember, I'm trying to figure this all out, too.
> 
> 
> P.S. - I forgot to mention that there is another Randy Walters on AVS who has been here for a long time, and has authored many, many posts. I'm not that Randy Walters!



Sounds like you are in the industry or alternatively a very dedicated hobbiest. Thanks for the info.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20435414
> 
> 
> Thanks Don npfv100 list everywheres at 159 Amazon 48 buck
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks ordered 1 up



They only had 3 left when I placed my order just before yours. Looks like one lucky guy/gal is going to get the last one.









(Ditto thanks to Don for the earlier response.)


----------



## Don Landis

Actually, I think we all broke some forum rules here but it was to the benefit of the 3D early adopter shooters in the family.







Sorry David. I would have asked for permission but decided it was just better to say Sorry! we'll try not to do it again. I just forgot.


----------



## bravia3D

I finally had a chance to view this Sony cam out here in Japan.

I must say, that LCD looks amazing in 3D. WAY WAY WAY better than the JVC LCD, I'm pretty jealous over that. Also had a chance to view myself in 3D on a Sony TV being shot by the cam, looked great and when I stuck my finger at the lens, it came outa the TV at me.


----------



## Randy Walters




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20436637
> 
> 
> Sounds like you are in the industry or alternatively a very dedicated hobbiest. Thanks for the info.



Yep, shooting/editing HD is one of the things that helps pay for the gizmos!


----------



## fuall

Does anyone have any idea on how to keep these lenses clean and free from scratches? I want to invest in a UV filter or something, but not sure how it would screw in.


----------



## Don Landis

bravia3D- Does the JVC camcorder have a way to trim clips' heads and tails; and join clips in a group into 1 with transitions and add music inside the playback section of the camcorder?


I was exploring this in the Sony and it is pretty slick what you can do. This is for those who want to do some really basic editing of their clips, trim off the junk, split 1 into two and then trim heads and tails. copy all the clips to an SD card in a collection and then present them with music background. My jaw dropped when I saw what they have put into this. It seems the transitions, are at random but maybe you can select them in the highlight settings . The feature is called "Highlight" I now found the Highlight settings where you can select your music and adjust the mix in volume, Different themes, tempos, and timings are all available. When satisfied you then save the presentation for future playback. Talk about easy editng of a 3D presentation!



> Quote:
> I must say, that LCD looks amazing in 3D. WAY WAY WAY better than the JVC LCD, I'm pretty jealous over that.



I told you people who just had to have the JVC if you ever saw the quality in the Sony you would pee in your pants! Quick, sell the JVC before the word gets out and buy a Sony


----------



## pteittinen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bigbarney* /forum/post/20435348
> 
> 
> Please let me remind you that *YOU* came up with the term "manipulation".... not me.



And you tried to tell me what I meant by it. Doesn't work like that.



> Quote:
> I was under the impression that the JVC camera was the *ONLY[/]device that could playback the JVC footage
> *


*


Impressions are a poor substitute for knowledge. TMT5 plays the files in 3D and virtually every video player app worth its salt plays the 2D stream of the 3D file just fine, with audio no less. And can you guess why? Because the players follow the same AVC spec as the 3D file format used by the JVC cam.




Quote:
Do you have any idea how silly you're sounding?

Click to expand...


Not at all to anyone who understands format specifications.




Quote:
Zero bearing?

Click to expand...


Yes, zero. Zilch. I'm talking about input while you appear to be talking about output. The assets used to create a 3D Blu-ray do not have to be BD compliant in the slightest. I can shoot with two VHS-C camcorders for all I care, transfer the footage to PC in pretty much any format, import the files in Vegas and use them to create a 3D Blu-ray. It doesn't matter if the source files are BD compliant or not; Vegas can create a 3D Blu-ray out of them as long as proper support for the source file format has been programmed into it.


Since this discussion has nothing to with the topic of this thread and your arguments are mainly a mix of bluster and ignorance, I'll sign off and leave this thread in peace, starting now.*


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20437208
> 
> 
> bravia3D- Does the JVC camcorder have a way to trim clips' heads and tails; and join clips in a group into 1 with transitions and add music inside the playback section of the camcorder?
> 
> 
> I was exploring this in the Sony and it is pretty slick what you can do. This is for those who want to do some really basic editing of their clips, trim off the junk, split 1 into two and then trim heads and tails. copy all the clips to an SD card in a collection and then present them with music background. My jaw dropped when I saw what they have put into this. It seems the transitions, are at random but maybe you can select them in the highlight settings . The feature is called "Highlight" I now found the Highlight settings where you can select your music and adjust the mix in volume, Different themes, tempos, and timings are all available. When satisfied you then save the presentation for future playback. Talk about easy editng of a 3D presentation!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I told you people who just had to have the JVC if you ever saw the quality in the Sony you would pee in your pants! Quick, sell the JVC before the word gets out and buy a Sony



Funny you should bring this up. I'm digging into the JVC MediaBrowser software more tonight. I assume you're talking about MVC editing, aren't you, Don?


Here's an overview of what you can do with it, although I'm sure this will be incomplete. I'm just getting into a lot of these features. There are promised upgrades (including Full HD 3D playback from the computer) in July. You can archive all your footage to and play it back from an external Blu-ray recorder or USB hard drive. Side by side (MTS) files can be pulled off the camcorder and edited in anything that edits AVCHD. You can trim heads and tails from MVC clips, arrange them in a storyboard and write them back out to SD card for playback. No music or transitions that I can find. You can write 3D MVC files out to Blu-ray discs or AVCHD (onto DVD recordables) as side by side, or as 2D video, for playback on almost any Blu-ray player. The software converts the MVC to side by side or 2D, then writes it out in standard Blu-ray or AVCHD format to the discs.


----------



## Joseph Clark

I'm really looking forward to seeing some more TD10 MVC clips. I can't watch them in 3D, of course, but at least I can get a good idea about the 2D image quality. How about something shot in really good light?


----------



## 3Dmadman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20437208
> 
> 
> bravia3D- Does the JVC camcorder have a way to trim clips' heads and tails; and join clips in a group into 1 with transitions and add music inside the playback section of the camcorder?
> 
> 
> I was exploring this in the Sony and it is pretty slick what you can do. This is for those who want to do some really basic editing of their clips, trim off the junk, split 1 into two and then trim heads and tails. copy all the clips to an SD card in a collection and then present them with music background. My jaw dropped when I saw what they have put into this. It seems the transitions, are at random but maybe you can select them in the highlight settings . The feature is called "Highlight" I now found the Highlight settings where you can select your music and adjust the mix in volume, Different themes, tempos, and timings are all available. When satisfied you then save the presentation for future playback. Talk about easy editng of a 3D presentation!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I told you people who just had to have the JVC if you ever saw the quality in the Sony you would pee in your pants! Quick, sell the JVC before the word gets out and buy a Sony



Are you using Vegas 10d to do all this editing or something else?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3Dmadman* /forum/post/20437762
> 
> 
> Are you using Vegas 10d to do all this editing or something else?



I use Sony Vegas 10d but the comment was about what can be done sans computer, just holding the camcorder in your hand and editing the clips you shot right in the camera, then saving the result to the camera memory. Haven't even connected it to a computer. Consequently, all the work is done with the video as seen on the screen and don't even need to worry about MVC or what form the clip is in. However, one should note that the Sony only uses one file format for all that is shot in 3D. It is MVC. In 2D there are several resolutions to choose from.


Joe- what sort of MVC clip do you want to see? Weather has been terrible today so I didn't do any shooting at all. I'm spending my time learning and getting really comfortable with the camera as a shooting kit. I'm off for 4 days of shooting next week so I'll be doing something then. I'll be doing bright sunlight, indoor, and some night time stuff with lots of interesting subject matter. Hope to even shoot a laser light show and fireworks display. But for now what would you like to see as just a clip of two. If weather is nice I'll do something tomorrow.


----------



## Randy Walters

Here are links to two 3D streams that were copied directly from the TD-10 to an external drive attached to the camera's USB port. These are completely unprocessed.


The files are fairly large... 131MB and 61 MB. Enjoy!

http://memepuffs.com/indoor.MTS 

http://memepuffs.com/outdoor.MTS 


I'd love to see if anyone can manage to demux one of these into two full HD movies using some relatively inexpensive utility; something short of Vegas. Good luck!


P.S. For the record, VLC plays these back in 2D, no sweat.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20437812
> 
> 
> I use Sony Vegas 10d but the comment was about what can be done sans computer, just holding the camcorder in your hand and editing the clips you shot right in the camera, then saving the result to the camera memory. Haven't even connected it to a computer. Consequently, all the work is done with the video as seen on the screen and don't even need to worry about MVC or what form the clip is in. However, one should note that the Sony only uses one file format for all that is shot in 3D. It is MVC. In 2D there are several resolutions to choose from.
> 
> 
> Joe- what sort of MVC clip do you want to see? Weather has been terrible today so I didn't do any shooting at all. I'm spending my time learning and getting really comfortable with the camera as a shooting kit. I'm off for 4 days of shooting next week so I'll be doing something then. I'll be doing bright sunlight, indoor, and some night time stuff with lots of interesting subject matter. Hope to even shoot a laser light show and fireworks display. But for now what would you like to see as just a clip of two. If weather is nice I'll do something tomorrow.



Thanks, Don. Something with lots of detail and color, if possible, preferably shot outside with sunlight. I have a lot of such footage from the JVC, and I'd like to be able to compare similar types of footage.


Also, I wanted to ask you if you have any recommendations for a micro-jib. I really like the Blackbird stabilizer (it's more flexible and easier to use than my Steadicam JR was), but I think a really, really small jib would be better for the kinds of things I shoot, and the way I shoot. I need something I can carry easily and set up fast. Nothing remotely large or time consuming.


----------



## bigbarney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pteittinen* /forum/post/20437500
> 
> 
> And you tried to tell me what I meant by it. Doesn't work like that.



No. I tried telling you it was the wrong word altogether. In today's world we don't need to "manipulate" data, because in today's world consumer cams are set up to AVOID the need for data "manipulation" The data is already in a compliant state.... well... that's true for most consumer cams except of course for JVC







. Authoring/burning disks today simply means ORGANIZING the data into a particular file structure.


It's JVC which needs the data "manipulation"... which BTW puts it in line for a comparison to the VHS cam you mentioned










Anyhow... what I can't quite understand here is why you're limiting your blame to Sony Vegas. Avid MC won't accept a JVC MVC file.... heck... MC won't even readily accept a MPG file.... Adobe won't accept JVC.... FCP won't accept JVC.... corel... pinnacle.... magix.... etc.

Yet the non acceptance of a JVC MVC file seems to be all SCS's fault.

So tell me.... in this little dream world of yours... does JVC get to accept *ANY* blame at all, or are they just the poor innocent pawns in all of this and we should all bend over backwards to accommodate any whacky format they happen to put out?


And if blu ray compliance is not and should not be a consideration then why would you say that JVC went with an internal conversion to avchd SBS (with ac3) when off-loading the 3D for more conventional services? After all...they could have stuck with their rather shabby mp4/aac choice


----------



## Don Landis

Randy- Lots of good natural color in the indoor shot, especially for the fact it was auto white balance in a room with Fluorescent lighting. This is usually very tough to AWB as it is 4000 °K. Still, I don't see nearly the red overtones as I saw in most of the JVC indoor stuff. The clay pots are especially telling in that the color was very natural. I think JVC would have given it a warm fuzzy look. It's something I noticed with Joe's and mostly Frank's JVC video.

The outdoor shot looked like an overcast day which also was not properly white balanced. Overcast creates a typical white color temperature of 8000 °K and the camera wants to see 5600. So, I always look to the sky and if high noon blue sky I know it is 5600 but if overcast, I always execute a manual WB to pull more warmth into the shot. While the Sony has Manual WB in 2D mode it does not give you a °K readout. My Broadcast cameras all give a real light meter readout so I got used to working that way and over the years have developed an eye for what the color temperature is. Most people leave the camera in auto which is fine as few were ever taught to think in °K. I think from what I've seen JVC adds some interesting coloration to the image, less visible on outdoor shots but over done on 3200 °K indoor.


----------



## 3Dmadman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20437812
> 
> 
> I use Sony Vegas 10d but the comment was about what can be done sans computer, just holding the camcorder in your hand and editing the clips you shot right in the camera, then saving the result to the camera memory. Haven't even connected it to a computer. Consequently, all the work is done with the video as seen on the screen and don't even need to worry about MVC or what form the clip is in. However, one should note that the Sony only uses one file format for all that is shot in 3D. It is MVC. In 2D there are several resolutions to choose from.
> 
> 
> Joe- what sort of MVC clip do you want to see? Weather has been terrible today so I didn't do any shooting at all. I'm spending my time learning and getting really comfortable with the camera as a shooting kit. I'm off for 4 days of shooting next week so I'll be doing something then. I'll be doing bright sunlight, indoor, and some night time stuff with lots of interesting subject matter. Hope to even shoot a laser light show and fireworks display. But for now what would you like to see as just a clip of two. If weather is nice I'll do something tomorrow.



Why the heck I am just stunned. I read every manual on this device that I could get my hands on online and there is nothing about editing inside the camera. Now I am wondering how much capability there is that I cant even read about. If anyone has some pdf manual or something that I am missing please post it here.


----------



## Randy Walters

Here's a link to Sony's manual for the TD-10...

http://memepuffs.com//HDR-TD-10.pdf 


Don - it's a little embarrassing for me to throw up something set on full auto, as I'm generally much more painstaking... but these shots are among the first I took with the camera the morning after it arrived. On the bleeding edge, once again. The outdoor shot was definitely under overcast conditions; I had a few minutes to get out during lunchtime, and I grabbed the chance.


There's something else going on in the indoor shot; because I knew I wanted plants in my workspace, I went to the trouble of buying and installing full-spectrum fluorescents right above my plants. They're the only ones in the whole office space, and they definitely make a difference in the color of the indoor shot. The plants love 'em... they're thriving.


----------



## Don Landis

Never be embarrassed about using full auto- In documentary work, I tell my people when the action happens I don't want to hear the excuse you were too busy tying to tweak the manual settings in the camera and missed the shot.










One additional question, however, did you notice the blue streaks in the white on the cow and on the lower right side of the image on the sidewalk? What is that?


3Dmadman- Yes, I agree with you. The manual sucks! They missed quite a bit and that is why I've been spending so much time exploring through the menus.


BTW- I have the hard wires remote control and it works great with the TD10. I tested it with 500ft of extension cable. No problem! Also not in the manual.


The manual adjustment knob is so lacking in the manual it could be considered in error. The menu gives excellent descriptions of each setting. Probably the best place to have a manual, on screen, anyway.


The knob only allows for white balance shift but the on screen settings allow the full 3200 5600 and manual set white balance. I have no idea what the manual set range is but it does work great for 2500 °K lighting as I checked that.


----------



## Randy Walters

Don - the blue lines on the sidewalk are stray-painted marks left to alert construction crews. Yes, they're actually there.


The color on the cow appears to be an artifact of the way the camera is handling the transition away from blown-out highlights - and *that* I have no explanation for.


----------



## bravia3D

Don- The JVC doe's allow you to edit the files on the cam itself. You can delete parts you don't like. But you can't add music on the cam itself. With the software you can edit and add music. Sounds like Sony has beat the JVC in the LCD and edit functions.


I just may try to sell my JVC on an auction if I keep hearing such good things of the Sony! But I'm curious how good it is in low light.


----------



## markr041

"The manual adjustment knob is so lacking in the manual it could be considered in error. The menu gives excellent descriptions of each setting. Probably the best place to have a manual, on screen, anyway.


The knob only allows for white balance shift but the on screen settings allow the full 3200 5600 and manual set white balance. I have no idea what the manual set range is but it does work great for 2500 °K lighting as I checked that."


I have read through this thread and I have read the manual.


Here is what I conclude:


In *3D* mode, the main purpose for having the TD10, you *cannot*:


1. Set white balance (amazing!).


2. Set shutter or iris.


3. Set manual audio (that is true for 2D also).


Thus, in 3D mode the camera is essentially only in auto mode except for focus and exposure compensation. This is the same as a low-level consumer camcorder.


Did I miss something?


----------



## fuall




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smacarth* /forum/post/20435297
> 
> 
> I use a Tenba case. Perfect fit. See attached photo




smacarth,


what Tenba model is this?


Is it the Tenba Mixx Top Load Holster Bag?


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20440851
> 
> 
> "The manual adjustment knob is so lacking in the manual it could be considered in error. The menu gives excellent descriptions of each setting. Probably the best place to have a manual, on screen, anyway.
> 
> 
> The knob only allows for white balance shift but the on screen settings allow the full 3200 5600 and manual set white balance. I have no idea what the manual set range is but it does work great for 2500 °K lighting as I checked that."
> 
> 
> I have read through this thread and I have read the manual.
> 
> 
> Here is what I conclude:
> 
> 
> In *3D* mode, the main purpose for having the TD10, you *cannot*:
> 
> 
> 1. Set white balance (amazing!).
> 
> 
> 2. Set shutter or iris.
> 
> 
> 3. Set manual audio (that is true for 2D also).
> 
> 
> Thus, in 3D mode the camera is essentially only in auto mode except for focus and exposure compensation. This is the same as a low-level consumer camcorder.
> 
> 
> Did I miss something?







no but you just saved 1500 bucks


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bravia3D* /forum/post/20440842
> 
> 
> Don- The JVC doe's allow you to edit the files on the cam itself. You can delete parts you don't like. But you can't add music on the cam itself. With the software you can edit and add music. Sounds like Sony has beat the JVC in the LCD and edit functions.
> 
> 
> I just may try to sell my JVC on an auction if I keep hearing such good things of the Sony! But I'm curious how good it is in low light.



I'm hardware agnostic, so I'm willing to change from any particular manufacturer if I see something I like better. As far as I'm concerned, the jury hasn't heard all the evidence yet in the Sony vs JVC trial. I want to see lots of clips from the Sony. I'm still extremely happy with the overall image quality - detail, color, contrast, 3D and feature set - of the JVC TD1. If I see evidence that the Sony is better in several areas, I'll consider switching. So far, I haven't seen any such evidence (not saying it doesn't exist, just that I haven't seen it). As for 3D editing, that's a wasteland right now. In a few months, the landscape may look very, very different. I'm in no hurry, although I realize some people are. I also want to see some edited 3D footage from Vegas that I can compare with the original source footage. If the original footage is better than the JVC, and the edited program maintains the quality, that would be a strong plus for the Sony. I'd have to weigh that against the learning curve and expense of a new non-linear editing system, because I'm comfortable with Adobe Premiere.


The grass often looks a lot greener on the other side of the fence. But I think the JVC green looks pretty amazing. The Sony's going to have to really bring it for me to want to switch.










I'm not a fanboy. Show me the Sony's superiority and I'll be the first to acknowledge it. In the coming weeks, I'll be working on adding the ability to view full MVC 3D clips on my computer. TMT5 does that with the JVC clips now, but I've yet to work out all the details on my particular computer. Others already have. If anyone finds a way to view the Sony clips in full HD 3D on the computer, I'd really appreciate a step by step on how to do it. I know that with the JVC, side by side video doesn't hold a candle to full HD 3D. In lieu of that, the only way for me to see the quality of the Sony is through video edited in Vegas and burned to a Blu-ray or AVCHD disc. I'd also appreciate getting hold of an iso of such a disc.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bravia3D* /forum/post/20440842
> 
> 
> Don- The JVC doe's allow you to edit the files on the cam itself. You can delete parts you don't like. But you can't add music on the cam itself. With the software you can edit and add music. Sounds like Sony has beat the JVC in the LCD and edit functions.
> 
> 
> I just may try to sell my JVC on an auction if I keep hearing such good things of the Sony! But I'm curious how good it is in low light.



Give me some time- I'll be digging for the bad on this baby. Maybe the difference between me and others is I dig for the bad so I can figure out how to work around it and get the best bang for the buck.

I spent my first day out shooting down town for an hour and discovered something awful- as bright and as good a quality the 3D autostereo monitor is, even with a hoodman on I could hardly determine manual focus. And, I was doing lots of shots that required it. You'll see. I'm rendering the stuff to a YouTube now. So, the first thing I did was order a new Hoodman, one that is exactly the right size for this monitor. It is the HD450. I have an HD300 I bought for the smaller Bloggie. Should be in in a few days in time for my big project. I also ordered a riser for the Hoodman loupe so it also fits the TD10 monitor.

The shoot today was all about a learning session and boy did I learn! Mark- the biggest thing negative is the auto gain control in the camcorder. I need to do some digging on this to see how to knock it down, hopefully get control over the manual audio gain. It's probably there just not recognizable. I know the NXCAM version of the TD10 has manual audio controls but only in stereo, or as the pros say- ch1 and ch2, not in DD5.1 either. So, if you were looking for an excuse to go for a pro cam, I don't think you'll find a DD5.1 mix volume on that either. I do recall Tom found one adjustment as a two position and I will begin by testing that next. I don't need a 5.1 mix board in the cam, but just a way to prevent pumping and run away noise build that auto gain gives you.


----------



## Don Landis

Here is my quickie shoot with the TD10 today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXcNNbQ7-Dw


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20441740
> 
> 
> Here is my quickie shoot with the TD10 today.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXcNNbQ7-Dw







well how do you think it came out. for a low end 3d camcorder


----------



## Don Landis

I have a couple tweaks to the edits before burning to BD-R


Would have caught them but Big Barney says my computer isn't fast enough. So I missed them.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Thanks so much, Don. I appreciate your doing this. Some really cool shots and a great location. Where exactly was this?


I see a similar depth to these shots as the JVC. The parallax, though, seems to work differently. I kept slipping my glasses up and down as I watched the video, and there seems to be more separation (and more consistent separation near to far) of the left/right eye views than I see in the JVC. Not sure why. Did you use auto parallax control, or do anything in Vegas with parallax? As I said, it seems to create a similar sense of depth, but apparently they go about it differently.


Zoom creates much the same effect with the Sony as the JVC - that is, it flattens things out the more you zoom in. I expected that. No surprise there. Of course, the Sony can zoom in further than the JVC at max telephoto, and I believe it can go a little wider, too. Advantage Sony for the range. That could be quite useful. Of course, at max tele, the 3D effect flattens out, but having the extra range when you're shooting opens up more possibilities. Same for the little extra at the wide setting on the Sony.


Is there any way you could put the finished piece in something like Dropbox? I really don't like what YouTube does to 3D video. It washes it out and softens it up, even though I play it in 1080p. For apples to apples type comparisons, I'd like to see the video as it came out of Vegas.

Here's a video from Dropbox, shot with the JVC TD1. It was my first day of shooting and the camera was in full auto. I shot in JVC's native side by side mode, where the camera takes the two images and creates an MTS file (standard AVCHD) from the left and right images as you shoot. I regret doing that now, because the MVC mode is far better. The JVC software lets me convert to side by side after the fact anyway. Except for the conversion time (which I could do pretty quickly with my computer), there's no downside to shooting everything in MVC. I didn't do much zooming, but trust me, the effect is much the same for both cameras.


I edited this in $70 software called Corel VideoStudio Pro X4. It makes no pretense of being a 3D editor, but it has the advantage of preserving the original video quality except for the transitions. You'll notice some artifacting in the rendered dissolves, because I did this quick and didn't bother to do two pass encoding. This little piece also reveals the JVC issue of white objects flashing in some shots. I've picked up on it in a few of my shots. Can you see it? I didn't notice it until bravia3d pointed it out and I went looking for trouble. Thanks, man.


----------



## Joseph Clark









This is a frame grab from a JVC MVC file. It was high noon at Shaw's Garden here in St. Louis, so there's lots of contrast, but it's a good shot for color and detail.


----------



## Joseph Clark

When I saw the frame grab I posted, I realized that it's just a line doubled field, not a whole frame. The aliasing you see in the blades of grass on the bottom right is not visible while watching the video clip in 3D. I thought it looked soft compared to what I see in the 3D video. I was right. It's half res.


----------



## Don Landis

Joe- I started to do manual on focus and Exposure shift, thinking I could take my time and play with the settings but after my first shot, went back inside the van and switched everything (almost) to full auto. I trashed that first clip as it was out of focus. The reason was I just could not see the 3D screen well enough to set all the manual stuff as necessary. If I can resolve a way to see the screen in bright sun, I'll return to using manual out doors.

Options that failed- Using a Hoodman was not good enough, still too bright for my eyes to adjust with the hoodman.

Future options- I will switch the monitor to 2D while shooting 3D and use a loupe hoodman to view. This should work because my eye will be sealed and my iris will open up to see the screen.


Now the explanation of (almost) auto. There is a hidden feature in the Sony that I didn't know about until I discovered it tonight. It is called intelligent AUTO, on or off. Today's shoot was done in all automatic but with "Intelligent Auto" switched off. Don't ask me what it does but what I read about it on the help popup on the TD10 screen is that it optimizes all automatic settings before you can record. I won't claim to know what Sony means by that but it is another option to hopefully improve results when shooting in automatic mode.

The time of day was 4PM, location was Jacksonville, FL Riverwalk, south bank.


In manual mode I would have preferred to make a slight lowering of the Exposure to add more detail to the washed out sky which would have made the clouds visible, while lowering the overall luminance. Most of the sky shots were white clipped.


Here's one from the TD10 that I think is just a tad on the bright side but otherwise no clipping- This was shot in 3D and I just "Photo grabbed" it inside the TD10 where it was converted to a JPG file and then uploaded to my server as AVSForum reduces uploaded images. I saw that is what you did so I just did the same. The Sony allows still image conversion to 2D photos from any 3D video clip at the same resolution.


----------



## Don Landis

Joe- I'm not sure how you converted your image to jpg but you may want to de-interlace it in the future. This seems to be the most obvious difference between the two images. When the TD10 grabs a still image from the video whether it is shot in 2D or 3D it automatically deinterlaces the grab so you get a clean picture.

Edit-

Oh I see you did see it. Not really aliasing but the blades of plants are clearly sliced and missing whole lines.



Watched the Blue Ray at 1280x768 res and the 3D quality was as good as I see on many commercial movie 3D productions. I hope we get the bugs ironed out on Vegas to be able to make a BD at 1080x1920 soon. I am real pleased with how this looked.


Now, time to do some touchups to the edits and experiment with 1080x1920 burn.


----------



## 3Dmadman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Randy Walters* /forum/post/20439146
> 
> 
> Here's a link to Sony's manual for the TD-10...
> 
> http://memepuffs.com//HDR-TD-10.pdf
> 
> 
> Don - it's a little embarrassing for me to throw up something set on full auto, as I'm generally much more painstaking... but these shots are among the first I took with the camera the morning after it arrived. On the bleeding edge, once again. The outdoor shot was definitely under overcast conditions; I had a few minutes to get out during lunchtime, and I grabbed the chance.
> 
> 
> There's something else going on in the indoor shot; because I knew I wanted plants in my workspace, I went to the trouble of buying and installing full-spectrum fluorescents right above my plants. They're the only ones in the whole office space, and they definitely make a difference in the color of the indoor shot. The plants love 'em... they're thriving.



Randy,

Thanks a lot for the manual. This was very helpful.


Don,

I just have one more question. According to the manual you can save a video file as a "scenario". If I understand the manual it says you can replay this continuously. After each time a video clip is played on the camera, does this mean that it will continously loop the clip like the repeat feature in Windows Media player or does it stop and ask you if you want to replay it using a menu on the LCD? Thanks for all of your input.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> If I understand the manual it says you can replay this continuously. After each time a video clip is played on the camera, does this mean that it will continously loop the clip like the repeat feature in Windows Media player or does it stop and ask you if you want to replay it using a menu on the LCD?



I haven't looked into this, what I call presentation mode of playback too deeply but I did check out your question. Once you arrange your clips into a "presentation" with music and transitions, you can save that as a "playlist" It can be quite long. Replay seems to replay the playlist (scenario) as often as you have it saved but, no, it doesn't appear to replay automatically and thewre is no " Auto Repeat" function that I could see. So, if you had a playlist of clips highlighted, that was 3 hours long, you would need to touch "replay" in the menu when it pops up at the end of 3 hours to start it again for another 3 hours.


Hey, I gave up on reading the manual as it lacks too much. If I want to know something I just go the the screen and it can explain what each function does. At this point, to me, the manual seems almost useless.



Other observations I have seen-

When I connected the TD10 to my PS3, it played clips in 2D but not in 3D. The clips burned to a Blu-Ray disk in 3D play fine in the PS3 as they do in my OPPO BD93. The 3D image quality was stunning.


----------



## Don Landis

Is anyone using X.V. Color in either the TD10 or the JVC? I just noticed mine was shut off for everything I have shot so far. Deep color should improve the recording to more than 8bit, usually it's 10 to 12 bit.


----------



## TomWheeler

Don

_


I set up a project for my 10D 3D clips in Vegas 10d using full frame side-byside (which our Sony ES90 recognizes) and burned it from the timeline to Blu-ray in Vegas, took it into my home theater, played it back on my Blu-ray player and it looks identical to the same 3D clips played back from the camcorder and fed to my A/V system via HDMI. The Blu-ray disc even switched on High Lamp mode and Cinema 3 (my preferred 3D) settings on the ES90 automatically. Man, my wife and I were blown away with how good this looked in 3D on our 100 in. wide screen.


Tom_


----------



## Don Landis

Tom, You and I must have a mind meld going! I just did nearly the same thing. Used SBS full and burned the River Walk video to a BD. I used 1080 24p x 1920 25Mbit and DD5.1 sound, however. You didn't say what burn criteria but we did set the project properties the same.


I played mine back in the computer and observed a couple of glitches. The player was only seeing 2D, however. Later today, I will fire up the projector and test this in the OPPO and PS3.


What complete burn settings did you use? Anything custom?


I'm hoping to finally get the procedure figured out so I can edit like I did in SD and burn a BD one time and have it be right.


I also have been working on a play timeline to test the MVC clips transitions by working with Dynamic Ram. So far the video is playing without dropping frames but in slow - steady- frame rate. This is good because I can now see what is happening in the middle of a half second effect and make corrections.


----------



## 3Dmadman

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
I haven't looked into this, what I call presentation mode of playback too deeply but I did check out your question. Once you arrange your clips into a "presentation" with music and transitions, you can save that as a "playlist" It can be quite long. Replay seems to replay the playlist (scenario) as often as you have it saved but, no, it doesn't appear to replay automatically and thewre is no " Auto Repeat" function that I could see. So, if you had a playlist of clips highlighted, that was 3 hours long, you would need to touch "replay" in the menu when it pops up at the end of 3 hours to start it again for another 3 hours.


Hey, I gave up on reading the manual as it lacks too much. If I want to know something I just go the the screen and it can explain what each function does. At this point, to me, the manual seems almost useless.



Other observations I have seen-

When I connected the TD10 to my PS3, it played clips in 2D but not in 3D. The clips burned to a Blu-Ray disk in 3D play fine in the PS3 as they do in my OPPO BD93. The 3D image quality was stunning.
Don,

Thanks so much for the info. I am going to hold out and wait until Stereoscopic adds the MVC codec before pulling the trigger.


----------



## icerat4

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
Is anyone using X.V. Color in either the TD10 or the JVC? I just noticed mine was shut off for everything I have shot so far. Deep color should improve the recording to more than 8bit, usually it's 10 to 12 bit.
Hey i actually found that early on so mine is always on.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20442648
> 
> 
> Joe- I started to do manual on focus and Exposure shift, thinking I could take my time and play with the settings but after my first shot, went back inside the van and switched everything (almost) to full auto. I trashed that first clip as it was out of focus. The reason was I just could not see the 3D screen well enough to set all the manual stuff as necessary. If I can resolve a way to see the screen in bright sun, I'll return to using manual out doors.
> 
> Options that failed- Using a Hoodman was not good enough, still too bright for my eyes to adjust with the hoodman.
> 
> Future options- I will switch the monitor to 2D while shooting 3D and use a loupe hoodman to view. This should work because my eye will be sealed and my iris will open up to see the screen.
> 
> 
> Now the explanation of (almost) auto. There is a hidden feature in the Sony that I didn't know about until I discovered it tonight. It is called intelligent AUTO, on or off. Today's shoot was done in all automatic but with "Intelligent Auto" switched off. Don't ask me what it does but what I read about it on the help popup on the TD10 screen is that it optimizes all automatic settings before you can record. I won't claim to know what Sony means by that but it is another option to hopefully improve results when shooting in automatic mode.
> 
> The time of day was 4PM, location was Jacksonville, FL Riverwalk, south bank.
> 
> 
> In manual mode I would have preferred to make a slight lowering of the Exposure to add more detail to the washed out sky which would have made the clouds visible, while lowering the overall luminance. Most of the sky shots were white clipped.
> 
> 
> Here's one from the TD10 that I think is just a tad on the bright side but otherwise no clipping- This was shot in 3D and I just "Photo grabbed" it inside the TD10 where it was converted to a JPG file and then uploaded to my server as AVSForum reduces uploaded images. I saw that is what you did so I just did the same. The Sony allows still image conversion to 2D photos from any 3D video clip at the same resolution.



Sounds like we're experiencing the same kinds of things. I gave up on using the 3D LCD screen in daylight on the JVC - too dim. In 2D, it's not only a lot brighter, it's also extremely detailed, thus much easier to use.


The JVC also has an iA (intelligent Auto) mode. I've used it for almost all my shots at the Garden. It works very well, and it does a remarkable job of keeping the sky from blowing out. In mixed brightness shots where the sky would certainly overexpose with other cameras, I still see blue sky with the JVC. I read that JVC's 2D predecessor to this camera had a zebra function, which this camera does not have. So far anyway, I've had little need for it. iA works very well. I went from bright sun into a "cave" (with the Blackbird stabilizer) and the exposure changed fluidly and naturally to the dark interior. Pretty impressive.


Really looking forward to hearing more about the Blu-ray burns.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20443872
> 
> 
> 
> Other observations I have seen-
> 
> When I connected the TD10 to my PS3, it played clips in 2D but not in 3D. The clips burned to a Blu-Ray disk in 3D play fine in the PS3 as they do in my OPPO BD93. The 3D image quality was stunning.



My Sony has arrived and is in the battery charging stage. I did glance at the manual and noted that it stated in no uncertain terms that one could only save 3D video to a USB device or disk in 2D. It sounds like this is wrong as you have apparently been successful "burning to a Blu-Ray disk in 3D????" Do I have to invest in Vegas to be able to accomplish this or is there a simpler way? Any editing I do at this point will simply be in camera. If the answer is that Vegas is required to be able to burn a disk in 3D, then as a stop gap measure can I just record my 3D video directly onto the memory card as a storage device and just keep switching memory cards while avoiding recording onto the camera's hard drive? I assume that when I want to play back a 3D video all I would have to do is to reinsert the memory card into the camera and connect the camera directly to a 3D TV.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20445904
> 
> 
> My Sony has arrived and is in the battery charging stage. I did glance at the manual and noted that it stated in no uncertain terms that one could only save 3D video to a USB device or disk in 2D. It sounds like this is wrong as you have apparently been successful "burning to a Blu-Ray disk in 3D????" Do I have to invest in Vegas to be able to accomplish this or is there a simpler way? Any editing I do at this point will simply be in camera. If the answer is that Vegas is required to be able to burn a disk in 3D, then as a stop gap measure can I just record my 3D video directly onto the memory card as a storage device and just keep switching memory cards while avoiding recording onto the camera's hard drive? I assume that when I want to play back a 3D video all I would have to do is to reinsert the memory card into the camera and connect the camera directly to a 3D TV.








Correct north. What i am doing since i am not the editing kind.I am using a external hd to transfer stuff up and back. If need be. And then when a bluray burner that will work with mvc files comes out.iTS BURN TIME. Other wise shoot and save.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20446016
> 
> 
> Correct north. What i am doing since i am not the editing kind.I am using a external hd to transfer stuff up and back. If need be. And then when a bluray burner that will work with mvc files comes out.iTS BURN TIME. Other wise shoot and save.




Thanks. Have you tested playing it back from the external hd to make sure it plays back in 3D?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> I did glance at the manual and noted that it stated in no uncertain terms that one could only save 3D video to a USB device or disk in 2D.



Not that I hold much faith in that manual these days but it seems you read it wrong. What page# did you read it that way?


The reality is, you can't, as of today, _view_ the MCV 3D files outside the camcorder _except_ inside of Vegas 10d. Here in Vegas you can edit them and preview them in 3D as well as render them to different resolutions and bit rates. Outside of Vegas 10d, the file remains a 3D file, but no viewer will show it in 3D.


I went out and found a BD-RE disk so my continued test burns here don't break the bank.


As for the right settings to get good high quality 3D burns, I think I have the right custom template now for 1080 24p 1920 at 25Mbit and DD5.1 audio ( no clicks, Tom! ). I just tested a render with it burned to the BC-RE and it looked great played back with the OPPO BD-93. When I first stuck the disk it it tried to play it in 2D which had me worried. I stopped the play and hit play again and this time the OPPO switched auto into 3D and played the video with no hiccups, no jumpiness and good crisp clean DD5.1 sound. I also added some filtering to remove the wind noise which is a nice tool in Vegas. My non-technical wife was watching it and said it was perfect! If there is a glitch she'll see it, including a mosquito that flies in front of the camera while shooting.









Now I want to figure out the optimum 60i template for 1080 x 1920 and then I think I'll have what I need.


NorthTV- You'll have to experiment with your SD card for being able to handle the data. Personally, I plan to work with the internal memory as I feel that is safer to record as designed. Then as it gets full, do a copy to the SD cards and swap them as they get full. The copy process is non-destructive of the original so if the copy gets trashed, you can try again unless you erased the file. If your copy completes OK then go ahead and erase the original. I also have a 350 Gb WD media drive, two of them, that can be connected and off load the clips. Lot's of options. Learn them all. I could shoot for a week and not ever need to dump to a computer with PMB.


----------



## Don Landis

Updated Jacksonville River Walk


New link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gxrR5k5HG4 


Fixed a few bad edits and added a title, fixed some wind noise in the sound.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20446393
> 
> 
> Updated Jacksonville River Walk
> 
> 
> New link:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gxrR5k5HG4
> 
> 
> Fixed a few bad edits and added a title, fixed some wind noise in the sound.






great that wind noise was killing me


----------



## markr041

"Updated Jacksonville River Walk"


I watched this video (720P, anaglyph red/cyan, full color).


I was disappointed:


1. Most of the shots were long shots that had very little 3D effect. Videos of the bridge across the water, for example. This is not a surprise. Most of the subjects (eg, the boats) were too far away - this is not textbook, there was simply no 3D visible. If there was a railing up close, then that had a 3D effect, but the background across the water did not.


2. Most of the video was almost colorless (in anaglyph). Even the sky showed no blue in many shots, the greens were dull. One exception (there were others) was the last shot where the sky was blue and lamposts were blue - that was a good one, with good depth too.


3. Every shot (this is good) had a window-like appearance.


4. The most effective 3D shot was the Chart House sign (until you zoomed out), but again this demonstrates that the approximate span 3-16 feet really matters.


I know it is not my equipment because I thought the the swimming pool video with kid (bloggie!) was absolutely great: there was great yellow and blue color, there was action, and visible 3D depth - because the subject was close.


So 3D video technique clearly trumps camera equipment.


I learned a lot from the posts here, but I am really quite disappointed by this video.


I know how difficult it is to shoot effective 3D video. This was my first attempt, and some shots work and some do not, just as in the one here:


----------



## Joseph Clark

YouTube does horrible things to 3D. It washes out the video and destroys the contrast. I'd love to see a true 1920x1080 m2ts file created from TD10 footage - standard AVCHD, or whatever output Vegas provides at max quality. A Dropbox account is free (for 2 GB of storage, which is plenty for a few video files). I have some MVC files and an edited m2ts video of side by side footage I shot with my JVC TD1. You can see everything in its original quality. The JVC MVC footage can even be viewed in 3D on the computer with TMT5. (But don't ask me how. I'm still working on it. Frank can probably provide a how-to. He has it working on his computer system.)


YouTube may be convenient, but it absolutely sucks for video quality.


----------



## RickD_99




> Quote:
> The reality is, you can't, as of today, _view_ the MCV 3D files outside the camcorder _except_ inside of Vegas 10d. Here in Vegas you can edit them and preview them in 3D as well as render them to different resolutions and bit rates. Outside of Vegas 10d, the file remains a 3D file, but no viewer will show it in 3D.



Wonderful so in return for spending $1500 on a shiny new 3D camcorder I am left with the dubious honor of giving Sony $500 more for Vegas 10 Pro so I can actually do something halfway productive with my new 3D recordings. You know what Sony, how about this: KISS MY ASS! And that's coming from someone who has loyally purchased your products for over 30 years. I'm really beginning to think that the many Sony detractors here on AVS are right...they are getting more and more anti-consumer as time goes by.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RickD_99* /forum/post/20447392
> 
> 
> Wonderful so in return for spending $1500 on a shiny new 3D camcorder I am left with the dubious honor of giving Sony $500 more for Vegas 10 Pro so I can actually do something halfway productive with my new 3D recordings. You know what Sony, how about this: KISS MY ASS! And that's coming from someone who has loyally purchased your products for over 30 years. I'm really beginning to think that the many Sony detractors here on AVS are right...they are getting more and more anti-consumer as time goes by.



In fairness to Sony, 3D is an infant technology. It's not even close to where we'd all like it to be. Quite frankly, I'm surprised we've gotten this far as fast as we have. I think we'll have lots of options this time next year - including editing both the Sony and the JVC 3D footage in several non-linear editing packages. I'm just happy to be able to shoot it at all.


And next year we'll have more camera options, too. I'm working around its limitations pretty well, I think, but the JVC (and the Sony camcorder, too, from what I've seen) are limited first generation 3D products. I'm actually stunned at how good the JVC footage looks. It's exceeded my expectations by a considerable margin. But it's far from perfect. As for the Sony, I've yet to see its real quality. (I think someone posted some clips, but they were shot when the light was fading and looked pretty soft to me.) The YouTube clips are pretty much worthless in showing what the Sony footage looks like. The YouTube clips of early JVC footage looked pretty bad, too. I want to see the original footage.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RickD_99* /forum/post/20447392
> 
> 
> Wonderful so in return for spending $1500 on a shiny new 3D camcorder I am left with the dubious honor of giving Sony $500 more for Vegas 10 Pro so I can actually do something halfway productive with my new 3D recordings. You know what Sony, how about this: KISS MY ASS! And that's coming from someone who has loyally purchased your products for over 30 years. I'm really beginning to think that the many Sony detractors here on AVS are right...they are getting more and more anti-consumer as time goes by.






What company cares about customers these day.Its all outsourced lol. I love the cam its awesome.More then i expected.As far as editing stuff not here so i give a rats ass.Just store and wait til the bluray burner comes out.And that will be 500 bucks to LOL.


----------



## Don Landis

Mark- Thanks for your constructive comments.


First let me assure you I was not out to do a TV production here. This was to test the camera and see what I can do with it, And WHAT I CAN'T. I could have restricted every shot in the collection to just those with static stills, with something poking my lens in the foreground and all over the shoulder sun angle, no pans or zooms, but what would I have learned about what I can and can't do? The location was chosen because I could go late in the day and shoot with the sun in my face and then turn around with the sun behind me. The first shot in my River walk that was with the sun over my shoulder was the one of the Chart House with the Flowers. All those shots before were shooting into the sun, except the one of the NFL stadium. Also, besides the camera I wanted to get a feel for the range of steadiness using a monopod for full zoom and full pans. I know I won't see any 3D effect with these shots between distant objects, but I will with a few in the foreground. The color saturation is interesting observation. I agree with Joe that YouTube is not the best venue for display but that can be also said for anaglyph red cyan which are polar opposites and tend to greatly reduce chroma to a washed out look compared to display on a real 3D monitor using active or passive glasses. This washed out look can be improved using color enhanced lighting such as low sun angles that enhance reds and deepen blue sky such as you saw in the near perfect shot of the building. I didn't bother to stick two shots in the video that were total trash which was with the sun in the shot as it severly back lit the buildings, much the same as your shot through an opening in a building.

Also, in a real production of this location, I would be using a tripod with mini jib and each shot selected with proper sun angle in mind. I wouldn't avoid full zoom but make sure every shot had something of reference in the foreground because I would know the audience, knowing they were watching 3D would want to be dazzled with depth, at the risk of making some people get headaches due to working their eyes throughout with the focus stereoscopic conflict issue of this format.


In addition to shooting with the sun in the shot, I also avoided other things I already knew would not work- such as MTV style shaky cam movements; Walking along while rolling video; swish pans; snap zooms; an unrecognizable object sticking in the foreground framed there for the sole purpose of showing off 3D.


I used very little pop-out in front of the screen shots but did include the one with the flowers shot close to the ground. No special reason why I avoided this, just didn't strike me as compelling.







Maybe I'm getting over the need to exaggerate the 3D pop in your face impact. I should be careful with that as I know most people are looking for and need that to be dazzled by the concept of 3D. I do know by now how to generate that with both my 3D cameras now.










Regarding your video with the TM900. I must say I didn't learn much about the camera and what its limits are. It had good detailed video quality and good color. It failed on back light as expected for any camera and would need the aid of additional lighting for a shot like that unless black frame was the intention. The shooting style was interesting for the first minute or two but then left me yawning for something different. It was 10 minutes of stills all framed as scenery shots with a couple of unrecognizable object shots. Need more variety of camera angles, panoramas, and purpose to hold interest. Purpose defined as establishment, medium close and detailed for a story in pictures of the subject. But that was for presentation, the static shots as individuals were mostly all well composed and technically well done even if all the same.


Warning- Most of my work will be a learning experience to develop my range of skills- I have no production project where the story is the focus of my work in the foreseeable future, other than family memorabilia. So, please criticize my work with all your impressions as I want to learn what impacts people interested in 3D as well.


----------



## RickD_99




> Quote:
> In fairness to Sony, 3D is an infant technology. It's not even close to where we'd all like it to be. Quite frankly, I'm surprised we've gotten this far as fast as we have. I think we'll have lots of options this time next year - including editing both the Sony and the JVC 3D footage in several non-linear editing packages. I'm just happy to be able to shoot it at all.
> 
> 
> And next year we'll have more camera options, too. I'm working around its limitations pretty well, I think, but the JVC (and the Sony camcorder, too, from what I've seen) are limited first generation 3D products. I'm actually stunned at how good the JVC footage looks. It's exceeded my expectations by a considerable margin. But it's far from perfect. As for the Sony, I've yet to see its real quality. (I think someone posted some clips, but they were shot when the light was fading and looked pretty soft to me.) The YouTube clips are pretty much worthless in showing what the Sony footage looks like. The YouTube clips of early JVC footage looked pretty bad, too. I want to see the original footage.



Well said Joe as always...now that my blood pressure has receded somewhat







I now realize my Sony attack was a bit unfair as apparently the JVC 3D output files are limited in the same way as Sony's. I'll also admit that I have not adequately educated myself on the intricacies of the MVC format. The more I learn about MVC the more I realize the difficulties it creates for editing. However I don't see any of these first generation 3D camcorders making any significant sales inroads until there is a mass consumer affordable editing solution for the 3D MVC file format (something along the lines of VideoRedo). I certainly understand the value of Vegas 10 to professional videographers like Don but really do the majority of us that use the devices once in a while really need a $500 editing solution?


What I find interesting about this whole 3D camcorder subject is Canon...what are they up to? You would think that they would respond to the market given that 3 of their biggest competitors now have 3D camcorders available. Maybe they are the smart ones and are waiting for the editing solutions to be in place before releasing their first offering.


----------



## Don Landis

Rick- Yes, when one understands MVC it does amaze how Vegas can edit with those files.


For the most part, I think Sony has it figured out. There are two types of videographers working with camcorders, Those who will edit and those who won't. Those who won't would love to make a simple presentation so Sony has the "in camera" function that can put together a very nice presentation with music and transitions and then play in full MVC quality on your 3DTV. I do expect they will have a 3D USB connected or hdmi connected burner some day too that won't require a computer. icerat4 wants this real bad and I understand why. Me, I don't care about this at all and as you pointed out, I'm not interested in showing off clips of what I shot, not interested in doing a basic presentation like the Sony Highlight feature. For me all this stuff is nothing without a story. Maybe I'm a student of McLuhanism but I believe the medium IS the message, not the message is the medium. In other words, without a story the shots mean nothing. Video supports the story to be told. Consequently, editing is a very important part of what I do. I would not have purchased any 3D cameras if I could not tell my story.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20450092
> 
> 
> Rick- Yes, when one understands MVC it does amaze how Vegas can edit with those files.
> 
> 
> For the most part, I think Sony has it figured out. There are two types of videographers working with camcorders, Those who will edit and those who won't. Those who won't would love to make a simple presentation so Sony has the "in camera" function that can put together a very nice presentation with music and transitions and then play in full MVC quality on your 3DTV. I do expect they will have a 3D USB connected or hdmi connected burner some day too that won't require a computer. icerat4 wants this real bad and I understand why. Me, I don't care about this at all and as you pointed out, I'm not interested in showing off clips of what I shot, not interested in doing a basic presentation like the Sony Highlight feature. For me all this stuff is nothing without a story. Maybe I'm a student of McLuhanism but I believe the medium IS the message, not the message is the medium. In other words, without a story the shots mean nothing. Video supports the story to be told. Consequently, editing is a very important part of what I do. I would not have purchased any 3D cameras if I could not tell my story.







Got that right Don .All i am doing is saving everything on the external hd. Then when this magic blu ray mvc burner comes i burn it all. HAHAH. And for this consumer cam this is a great toy.I love everything ive shot so far crystal clear 3d and 2d all looks awesome. For a 1st gen cam in such a short time .I think sony did great period.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20448685
> 
> 
> Mark- Thanks for your constructive comments.
> 
> 
> First let me assure you I was not out to do a TV production here. This was to test the camera and see what I can do with it, And WHAT I CAN'T. I could have restricted every shot in the collection to just those with static stills, with something poking my lens in the foreground and all over the shoulder sun angle, no pans or zooms, but what would I have learned about what I can and can't do? The location was chosen because I could go late in the day and shoot with the sun in my face and then turn around with the sun behind me. The first shot in my River walk that was with the sun over my shoulder was the one of the Chart House with the Flowers. All those shots before were shooting into the sun, except the one of the NFL stadium. Also, besides the camera I wanted to get a feel for the range of steadiness using a monopod for full zoom and full pans. I know I won't see any 3D effect with these shots between distant objects, but I will with a few in the foreground. The color saturation is interesting observation. I agree with Joe that YouTube is not the best venue for display but that can be also said for anaglyph red cyan which are polar opposites and tend to greatly reduce chroma to a washed out look compared to display on a real 3D monitor using active or passive glasses. This washed out look can be improved using color enhanced lighting such as low sun angles that enhance reds and deepen blue sky such as you saw in the near perfect shot of the building. I didn't bother to stick two shots in the video that were total trash which was with the sun in the shot as it severly back lit the buildings, much the same as your shot through an opening in a building.
> 
> Also, in a real production of this location, I would be using a tripod with mini jib and each shot selected with proper sun angle in mind. I wouldn't avoid full zoom but make sure every shot had something of reference in the foreground because I would know the audience, knowing they were watching 3D would want to be dazzled with depth, at the risk of making some people get headaches due to working their eyes throughout with the focus stereoscopic conflict issue of this format.
> 
> 
> In addition to shooting with the sun in the shot, I also avoided other things I already knew would not work- such as MTV style shaky cam movements; Walking along while rolling video; swish pans; snap zooms; an unrecognizable object sticking in the foreground framed there for the sole purpose of showing off 3D.
> 
> 
> I used very little pop-out in front of the screen shots but did include the one with the flowers shot close to the ground. No special reason why I avoided this, just didn't strike me as compelling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm getting over the need to exaggerate the 3D pop in your face impact. I should be careful with that as I know most people are looking for and need that to be dazzled by the concept of 3D. I do know by now how to generate that with both my 3D cameras now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding your video with the TM900. I must say I didn't learn much about the camera and what its limits are. It had good detailed video quality and good color. It failed on back light as expected for any camera and would need the aid of additional lighting for a shot like that unless black frame was the intention. The shooting style was interesting for the first minute or two but then left me yawning for something different. It was 10 minutes of stills all framed as scenery shots with a couple of unrecognizable object shots. Need more variety of camera angles, panoramas, and purpose to hold interest. Purpose defined as establishment, medium close and detailed for a story in pictures of the subject. But that was for presentation, the static shots as individuals were mostly all well composed and technically well done even if all the same.
> 
> 
> Warning- Most of my work will be a learning experience to develop my range of skills- I have no production project where the story is the focus of my work in the foreseeable future, other than family memorabilia. So, please criticize my work with all your impressions as I want to learn what impacts people interested in 3D as well.



Good thoughts, Don. We're all going through a learning period with 3D, not only in terms of getting to know the hardware and its capabilities, but also in terms of how to shoot for 3D. I find myself shooting significantly longer shots, just to give myself time to explore the added dimension. We've all gotten used to absorbing 2D video pretty quickly, because of the "MTV quick-cut mentality" that's transformed television the last decade or three. Edit that way with 3D and it usually doesn't work. I for one like the slower pace that 3D often mandates. I delight in finding a person walking in the distance in a shot, obscured by bushes and limbs. That person would be lost in 2D video, but in 3D I can make out a surprising amount of detail. 3D is a lot more than 2+1.










I liked your summary of shooting and editing to tell a story. I like to use the term "funnel technique" - starting with an establishing shot, going to a long shot, medium shot and finally close ups for details and emotion. That leads the viewer into the story organically and gives it a context. All one has to do is watch the opening sequence of most any drama or sitcom on television. Let's take Fringe (one of my favorite shows







). Open with a shot outside a Harvard University building, home of Walter Bishop's lab. Cut to a long shot of the interior of the lab, with Walter and Astrid conducting an autopsy. Cut to a medium shot of Walter examining a corpse, while eating a red Twizzler. Walter asks "Astro" (sic) for a scalpel as he munches on the licorice. Cut to a mildly disgusted Astrid as she reacts to seeing Walter eating and autopsying at the same time (and getting her name wrong for the umpteenth time that day







). In four shots we know who, what, when and where, and

we probably also know how both characters are feeling about what they're doing. Documentary story telling feels different, but many of the visual techniques can be identical.


As for 3D in story telling, it presents its own set of unique issues, especially with these first gen camcorders. My JVC flattens out certain types of establishing shots to the point that unless I include foreground objects in the frame there is very little 3D effect. If people expect to see a 3D program, you run the risk of losing them in the first moments of your production. Losing your audience early can be a problem for any production, 2D or 3D. These first gen camcorders, it seems to me, present us with even more opportunities to mess up.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> If people expect to see a 3D program, you run the risk of losing them in the first moments of your production.



Absolutely, a la Tron Legacy. Another experiment with a huge budget.











Hey here is one I did just with your eye for the perfect image in mind. I have been toying with the idea of getting a mattebox for the TD10 as it has a mounting flange around the front than can be clamped to, but the main purpose is to add a polarizer and gradient color filter. Cavision makes one that with a little nudging on my milling machine could fit the TD10.


But first I need to test the ability to see what affect a polarizer would have on the twin 3D lens system. The good news is it did not affect the 3D depth illusion and the polarizer did work when rotated to find the optimum polarization setting for the shot. I knocked off two stills for you to view. The images were pulled from 3D video as 2D images. In reference to Marks comment about saturated blue sky and clouds getting blown out notice the affect on the blue as well as how the polarizer brings out more detail in the trees.


Normal camera without polarizer filter










Same shot but I held an 82mm circular polarizer in front of the twin lens, rotated to see the image on the 3D monitor deepen and then made a voice cue when to pull the frame grab.


----------



## icerat4

wow


----------



## Vancouverwedding

I have purchased Sony hdr td10 camcorder for a week and so far happy with the camcorder here is some review on my blog but video review is working on. Make sure subscribe to RSS or book mark it so when I finish the video you get to view it first. I have lot to learn on this 3d and thanks for everyone for sharing.


Thanks


3dVancouverWedding.com



Wayne L

Vancouver Videography + Photography


----------



## Don Landis

Wayne- read your nice report on the TD10.


One point you may wish to change- The hot shoe on top supports the external microphones made by Sony. These are quite state of the art and are what I call smart mics. They have two that I purchased here. One auto switches the camcorder to stereo and then it can change the cardioid pattern based on your zoom on the lens. This mic works like a smart shotgun and is small. You can add third party accessories like blimp and fur for wind noise reduction as well. The second mic is designed for wireless remote work. It uses Blue Tooth transmission frequencies but has fairly impressive range with full quieting and can be used in DD5.1 mode and track the audio with the video as the speaker moves around in the shot. In addition this mic has IFB ( Intercom feed back ). This allows the camera operator to communicate instructions to the on camera talent from a distance. The remote wireless mic has a jack for a small ear bud to hear the sound as he speaks as it is recorded. Personally, I never liked it's design because it was too big and modified mine with a 3 ft wire and Sony High quality livelier, The ECM-77. This way a mic and transmitter can be hidden and mounted to free from rustling clothing noise.


Also, I don't believe you mentioned the TD10 supports a LANC remote control for power on, zoom, record, etc. I have a LANC to LTC time code translator here but I have not tested the Lanc jack with that yet. I will need to get an adapter cable first. This would allow the TD10 to sync lock to professional and broadcast multi camera shoots.


Built in video editor for making a simple presentation program of your clips, complete with music and theme transitions.


Check it out. You have more stuff in that little camera than you thought.

BTW- one member here has successfully loaded Vegas on his MAC using windows 7 OS.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20451001
> 
> 
> Absolutely, a la Tron Legacy. Another experiment with a huge budget.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey here is one I did just with your eye for the perfect image in mind. I have been toying with the idea of getting a mattebox for the TD10 as it has a mounting flange around the front than can be clamped to, but the main purpose is to add a polarizer and gradient color filter. Cavision makes one that with a little nudging on my milling machine could fit the TD10.
> 
> 
> But first I need to test the ability to see what affect a polarizer would have on the twin 3D lens system. The good news is it did not affect the 3D depth illusion and the polarizer did work when rotated to find the optimum polarization setting for the shot. I knocked off two stills for you to view. The images were pulled from 3D video as 2D images. In reference to Marks comment about saturated blue sky and clouds getting blown out notice the affect on the blue as well as how the polarizer brings out more detail in the trees.
> 
> 
> Normal camera without polarizer filter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same shot but I held an 82mm circular polarizer in front of the twin lens, rotated to see the image on the 3D monitor deepen and then made a voice cue when to pull the frame grab.



Very cool experiment, Don.


----------



## JediMastr

Still trying to keep up with these 3D camcorders on the market, but had no idea that Vegas 10 costs $500...seriously???????? I gotta google that! I mean, $100 is doable, but $500?...that should've come bundled with the camera for free.


----------



## markr041

"Regarding your video with the TM900. I must say I didn't learn much about the camera and what its limits are. It had good detailed video quality and good color. It failed on back light as expected for any camera and would need the aid of additional lighting for a shot like that unless black frame was the intention. The shooting style was interesting for the first minute or two but then left me yawning for something different. It was 10 minutes of stills all framed as scenery shots with a couple of unrecognizable object shots. Need more variety of camera angles, panoramas, and purpose to hold interest. Purpose defined as establishment, medium close and detailed for a story in pictures of the subject. But that was for presentation, the static shots as individuals were mostly all well composed and technically well done even if all the same."


Thank Don, I agree - I was just trying different shots to see how the 3D add-on worked. Once we all master 3D we can work more on making interesting videos! I do like backlit shots for drama, but I think they work less well for 3D, especially given the inevitable dimming that ocurs for most viewing techniques.


I look forward to learning more about 3D, before investing in a real 3D camera (I have lots of experience with stills using the Fuji W3 (the video is not good)); the TM900 was acquired mainly for regular HD video. I am getting the 3D bloggie to learn about what works in 3D more easily and cheaply. It is not clear its 3D videos will be much worse than the add-on TM900 3D, as both use half-frame sbs at 1080 (and the Panasonic one loses part of the frame).


----------



## SYOTR




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JediMastr* /forum/post/20454166
> 
> 
> Still trying to keep up with these 3D camcorders on the market, but had no idea that Vegas 10 costs $500...seriously???????? I gotta google that! I mean, $100 is doable, but $500?...that should've come bundled with the camera for free.



I have not seen it that cheap. Where did you find it for $500?


The worst thing is that it does not write to DVD or BluRay unless you buy the extra module.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SYOTR*  /forum/post/20454598
> 
> 
> I have not seen it that cheap. Where did you find it for $500?
> 
> 
> The worst thing is that it does not write to DVD or BluRay unless you buy the extra module.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jedinoob* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Still trying to keep up with these 3D camcorders on the market, but had no idea that Vegas 10 costs $500...seriously???????? I gotta google that! I mean, $100 is doable, but $500?...that should've come bundled with the camera for free.



Completely wrong!


Lets get the facts straight!


First of all the MSRP for Vegas Pro is $599, not $500. There are some coupons, sales and discounts offered from time to time such as the one that went on starting today for 30% off this price for those registering for the free webinar training. This includes all the modules for DVD and BluRay authoring, not just simple burning. The current update 10d permits burning 3D Blu-Ray edited projects as well.


You need to recognize that Professional software is not free, it is sold. Sony makes editing packages on 4 levels. The free stuff comes in the camera, does not require a computer. The next level is a limited version of Vegas called Vegas Movie Studio HD at starting prices of $44.95

There are various levels of this depending on your needs and they offer upgrades with credits. Sony has a pattern of making the older versions of the Pro available in the lower consumer price category for example the Vegas Movie Studio is like Vegas V 9.

Please review this web page and get up to speed on the facts.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegassoftware 


Above the level of Vegas Pro at $599 we enter the industrial strength product line and are sold for in the thousands but mainly used my the studios for BluRay and DVD authoring.

3D editing is very new and still in development. Today, if you have to do 3D editing you have 2 choices. The free in camera features and the Vegas Pro package for $599 less various deals being offered.


Want to compare- Check out what Adobe Premiere CS5 costs. Try Final Cut Studio, or Avid products. When you compare the features of what you are buying you will probably find that Vegas is the best value, will tap your wallet the least, and a hidden bonus, it is faster to achieve the same output. I know, I have all three!


But all this is academic if all you want to do is one function. In that case all this is just a waste of your time and money. Some day, I'm sure Sony will offer a simplified solution to connect a specialized burner that will allow those free edits you did in camera to burn to a 3D BluRay. They just don't have it today. Patience, my friend!


----------



## Randy Walters

Don - that polarizing filter works wonders!


And I'm exercising patience, too... Everything goes to an external drive until I get that dual-stream video card I'm saving for.


----------



## markr041

A short (2D) video demonstration confirming what the polarizing filter does to sky color and greenery. It is good to hear that the filter does not affect the 3D effect.


----------



## Don Landis

mark- Yes, that was my main concern of the test. I had some people "explain" to me in much technical gobledegoop how using a polarizing lens would mess with the stereoscopic illusion. Fact is it was totally inert. Now I can feel free to use one for the typical polarizer advantages such as glare and atmospheric haze reduction. The Cavision mattebox allows for two filters, one rotational. I plan to use the second one for an amber filter to cut UV as well. This is the setup I plan to use on my vacation to the Grand Canyon. What do you think?


----------



## smacarth




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20397344
> 
> 
> ok Formatted the external hd to fat32 via computer and went to pull vids off the pmb.Guess what all the files are messed up not mvc at all.Here is what i did wrong . On page 47 .Format the external device using the CAMCORDER before use. The format screen appears when an external media deviceis connected to your camcorder. Make sure that important data has not previously been saved on theexternal media device before you format it using the camcorder. Why is IT that you have to do it that way frist. I didnt think formatting it before would matter but i guess it does for some reason. The screen on the cam show USB CABLE HAS BEEN DISSCONNECTED
> 
> External media maybe damaged
> 
> Press the x button to end.
> 
> 
> 
> So new sony camcorder if saving your stuff to external HD You must set it up via CAMCORDER FIRST . I will reformat the HD BACK to original and see if that will work . If not there went 100 bucks for the learning curve. I really dont understand why if the External hd is formatted in fat 32 via computer first .Theres a problem . Anyone on this







Hi Icerat4,


Hey I got the same drive and tried to format it with the camera and keeps indicating "USB CABLE HAS BEEN DISCONNECTED External media maybe damaged Press the x button to end". How did you get around this so you can format it using the camera?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smacarth* /forum/post/20459990
> 
> 
> Hi Icerat4,
> 
> 
> Hey I got the same drive and tried to format it with the camera and keeps indicating "USB CABLE HAS BEEN DISCONNECTED External media maybe damaged Press the x button to end". How did you get around this so you can format it using the camera?



Make sure you use the special short cable adapter that came with the camcorder. Without that, the camcorder won't see the drive.


----------



## markr041

Don: "mark- Yes, that was my main concern of the test. I had some people "explain" to me in much technical gobledegoop how using a polarizing lens would mess with the stereoscopic illusion. Fact is it was totally inert. Now I can feel free to use one for the typical polarizer advantages such as glare and atmospheric haze reduction. The Cavision mattebox allows for two filters, one rotational. I plan to use the second one for an amber filter to cut UV as well. This is the setup I plan to use on my vacation to the Grand Canyon. What do you think?"


Some are concerned that unless the filter is really high quality glass it will mess with the quality of the video. Using two filters adds to the danger.


While this is not relevant to a Grand Canyon trip, the main reason I acquired a polarizer was to deal with reflections off glass, as I was about to take HD videos in the British Museum, where almost everything (mummies!) is in a glass case. The filter worked wonders, as without them, given the glare of windows and interior lights, the exhibits were almost unviewable:







This is obviously 2D, but we can imagine how great a video might be showing the exhibits in 3D. Maybe I will be back, so it is good to know that 3D will be unaffected by the filter.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smacarth* /forum/post/20459990
> 
> 
> Hi Icerat4,
> 
> 
> Hey I got the same drive and tried to format it with the camera and keeps indicating "USB CABLE HAS BEEN DISCONNECTED External media maybe damaged Press the x button to end". How did you get around this so you can format it using the camera?






Ok i had takin the 1t external hd back. AND BOUGHT THE 500G 2.0 USB. HOOKED THAT RIGHT up to the cam and all was good. i think it had something to do with the cam not liking the 3.0 usb vers, so take the 1t byte hd back and buy a 500 with 2.0 and you will be to go.







YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FORMAT THE NEW HD. Just plug the little usb into the hd frist and then turn on the cam and then plug the usb into the cam .All will be good .


----------



## Don Landis

If the drive was multi lun, I recall there is a setting for that in the TD10 menu. Also, you have to connect the AC supply to the camcorder. This doesn't work just off camcorder battery alone. My WD Passport drives don't need additional power but a few drives I have here I tested do require their own AC power pack. I'm running out of ideas.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20460542
> 
> 
> If the drive was multi lun, I recall there is a setting for that in the TD10 menu. Also, you have to connect the AC supply to the camcorder. This doesn't work just off camcorder battery alone. My WD Passport drives don't need additional power but a few drives I have here I tested do require their own AC power pack. I'm running out of ideas.






Yes your right don the cam does ask you to hook up ac power.other than that i just plugged in and all was good. as per or phone conversation when i got the 500g hd.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20460305
> 
> 
> Ok i had takin the 1t external hd back. AND BOUGHT THE 500G 2.0 USB. HOOKED THAT RIGHT up to the cam and all was good. i think it had something to do with the cam not liking the 3.0 usb vers, so take the 1t byte hd back and buy a 500 with 2.0 and you will be to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FORMAT THE NEW HD. Just plug the little usb into the hd frist and then turn on the cam and then plug the usb into the cam .All will be good .



With the 500G 2.0 USB external hard drive is it just plug and play or do I still need to follow the screen prompts for formatting. By the way, could you identify the manufacturer and model of the 500G that finally worked? (As of now everything I have shot in 3D is on the memory card. Will there be any problems dumping from the memory card onto the hard drive as opposed to off the camera's internal memory?)


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20463056
> 
> 
> With the 500G 2.0 USB external hard drive is it just plug and play or do I still need to follow the screen prompts for formatting. By the way, could you identify the manufacturer and model of the 500G that finally worked? (As of now everything I have shot in 3D is on the memory card. Will there be any problems dumping from the memory card onto the hard drive as opposed to off the camera's internal memory?)






westren digital is the make.There are 2-3 prompts nothing big its pretty quick.As far as the memory card i am not sure .All i shot was on the internal flash drive and sent it over to my external hd. You should be ok doing that one would think let us know .


----------



## cjethomas

Five in stock at JR. No tax in most, overnight Saturday delivery available.


(not trying to be spammy, just trying to help out those who have been waiting for this camera to come in stock somewhere)


JET


----------



## JonStatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20440851
> 
> 
> "The manual adjustment knob is so lacking in the manual it could be considered in error. The menu gives excellent descriptions of each setting. Probably the best place to have a manual, on screen, anyway.
> 
> 
> The knob only allows for white balance shift but the on screen settings allow the full 3200 5600 and manual set white balance. I have no idea what the manual set range is but it does work great for 2500 °K lighting as I checked that."
> 
> 
> I have read through this thread and I have read the manual.
> 
> 
> Here is what I conclude:
> 
> 
> In *3D* mode, the main purpose for having the TD10, you *cannot*:
> 
> 
> 1. Set white balance (amazing!).
> 
> 
> 2. Set shutter or iris.
> 
> 
> 3. Set manual audio (that is true for 2D also).
> 
> 
> Thus, in 3D mode the camera is essentially only in auto mode except for focus and exposure compensation. This is the same as a low-level consumer camcorder.
> 
> 
> Did I miss something?




You can adjust the sound level but it only has 2 steps, normal or low.


The white balance limitation in 3D is bizarre and I can't understand why that option is restricted. Of course this can be corrected in post-edit on Vegas Pro but you shouldn't have to do it that way.


Also I cannot see a way to disable iAuto in 3D. I think it is permanently enabled. If it can auto detect a scene mode in 3D why on Earth doesn't it let you fix it to one preset. Some of the restrictions are very very strange indeed.


----------



## markr041

"You can adjust the sound level but it only has 2 steps, normal or low. "


That does not disable autogain control, which is the bane of good audio: pumps up sound when there is almost silence (so you get noisy videos), compresses loud dynamics. True manual audio (defeat agc) is offered by all other camera manufacturers: Panasonic, JVC, Canon. Even the Kodak Zi8 flip-type camera has true manual audio.


So there is Dolby 5.1 surround sound, but no manual audio control. Amazing.


----------



## TomWheeler

Mark is not only totally correct in what he states, but even worse is the fact that in Vegas the 5.1 audio from the 10D will not play back without distortion and this distortion will be recorded to any Blu-ray disc that is created. Note that this distortion of the 5.1 audio is not the fault of the 10D but rather is a bug in Vegas for 5.1 MVC files. I have replicated the problem in Vegas on 3 separate PC workstations and Don has also confirmed the problem. Both Don Landis and I have filed bug reports with Sony Creative Software in the hopes that this problem will be addressed in a future release of Vegas. Neither Don nor I have been able to find a work around in Vegas to solve the issue, and we have tried a lot of things.


Right now the only option is two record DD *stereo* with the 10D is you are going to edit your footage in Vegas.


Tom


----------



## smacarth




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20460305
> 
> 
> Ok i had takin the 1t external hd back. AND BOUGHT THE 500G 2.0 USB. HOOKED THAT RIGHT up to the cam and all was good. i think it had something to do with the cam not liking the 3.0 usb vers, so take the 1t byte hd back and buy a 500 with 2.0 and you will be to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FORMAT THE NEW HD. Just plug the little usb into the hd frist and then turn on the cam and then plug the usb into the cam .All will be good .



I just ordered an Iomega 1TB Helium drive. This has USB 2.0. Will see how well this one works.

http://www.amazon.com/Iomega-Helium-...5908087&sr=8-2


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smacarth* /forum/post/20464535
> 
> 
> I just ordered an Iomega 1TB Helium drive. This has USB 2.0. Will see how well this one works.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Iomega-Helium-...5908087&sr=8-2




let us know ty.


----------



## rajibo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cjethomas* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Five in stock at JR. No tax in most, overnight Saturday delivery available.
> 
> 
> (not trying to be spammy, just trying to help out those who have been waiting for this camera to come in stock somewhere)
> 
> 
> JET



Has anybody received this from SonyStyle yet?


I ordered it the 3rd, the website says its shipping the 4th, I received an email stating it would ship the 13th and its now the 20th and I've got nothing.


I'm starting to lose interest...


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20463717
> 
> 
> westren digital is the make.There are 2-3 prompts nothing big its pretty quick.As far as the memory card i am not sure .All i shot was on the internal flash drive and sent it over to my external hd. You should be ok doing that one would think let us know .



Thanks. It will probably be awhile before I fill up the memory card and get an external hard drive so if anyone tries this (transferring the data from the memory card to the external hard drive) first, let us know.


By the way, have you tried yet playing the recorded 3D video on your external hard drive back through the camcorder and into a 3D TV? Any prompts or settings required? What connections and cables did you use? (I know the manual shows how to hook the camcorder to a 3D TV to play its internal content but not sure about routing the 3D video back through the camera after it is on an external hard drive.)


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20464979
> 
> 
> Thanks. It will probably be awhile before I fill up the memory card and get an external hard drive so if anyone tries this (transferring the data from the memory card to the external hard drive) first, let us know.
> 
> 
> By the way, have you tried yet playing the recorded 3D video on your external hard drive back through the camcorder and into a 3D TV? Any prompts or settings required? What connections and cables did you use? (I know the manual shows how to hook the camcorder to a 3D TV to play its internal content but not sure about routing the 3D video back through the camera after it is on an external hard drive.)





i will do this .this weekend and let ya know what i see.


----------



## Philsan

Hi.

Regarding audio, could you please make an audio test in a silent room?

I had a Sony HDR-CX700 (IMHO identical to HD10 apart 3D) and there was a background noise: multiupload.com/BIPSG02B6Y (audio set to "normal").

Thanks


----------



## icerat4

Ok i ran the hd thru the cam on to the sony hx800 and walla all looks great.So that worked no problems at all .


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20466792
> 
> 
> Ok i ran the hd thru the cam on to the sony hx800 and walla all looks great.So that worked no problems at all .



Thanks a jillion!


----------



## nosys70

if you have the HVR-TD10 recording in MVC 3D, there is 3DTV.AT (who is making the famous stereoscopic player) just releasing an MVC converter.

you just drop the MVC file into the converter and you got left and right AVI file as output.

Works fine with the samples posted in this thread and the Cineform NEO codec.

Then you can use the good old 2d Editing way to process one eye , and then replaces the left eye rushes with the right ones, and generate both views with minimal work.( for those using premiere, do not forget to delete the preview files).


----------



## 3Dmadman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nosys70* /forum/post/20470023
> 
> 
> if you have the HVR-TD10 recording in MVC 3D, there is 3DTV.AT (who is making the famous stereoscopic player) just releasing an MVC converter.
> 
> you just drop the MVC file into the converter and you got left and right AVI file as output.
> 
> Works fine with the samples posted in this thread and the Cineform NEO codec.
> 
> Then you can use the good old 2d Editing way to process one eye , and then replaces the left eye rushes with the right ones, and generate both views with minimal work.( for those using premiere, do not forget to delete the preview files).



Finally. Yes it actually works. I am able to view the raw files indoor.mts and outdoor.mts using your instructions above. Many thanks. The only thing that stands out is the fact that the camera needs to be kept still or this jittering effect is very noticeable. However I am still very impressed. Now for the Utube videos. I downloaded a Utube video downloader and I have a choice of formats. I tried the HD mp4 option but those will not play using the instructions above. Stereoscopic player doesnt seem to recognize those as MVC files like it does the raw .mts files. Any thoughts here on how to play the Utube videos? I am about to pull the trigger now.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3Dmadman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Finally. Yes it actually works. I am able to view the raw files indoor.mts and outdoor.mts using your instructions above. Many thanks. The only thing that stands out is the fact that the camera needs to be kept still or this jittering effect is very noticeable. However I am still very impressed. Now for the Utube videos. I downloaded a Utube video downloader and I have a choice of formats. I tried the HD mp4 option but those will not play using the instructions above. Stereoscopic player doesnt seem to recognize those as MVC files like it does the raw .mts files. Any thoughts here on how to play the Utube videos? I am about to pull the trigger now.



Can you hear 5.1 sound, just stereo, or no sound at all with that converter?


----------



## 3Dmadman

Don,

I am getting sound. According to the features list it says-


Windows Media 7.1 and 5.1 multichannel audio decoding


I cant tell if I am getting 5.1 on those two samples that I have. Obviously I would like to have more raw samples.


Another concern that I have is that my current 2d camcorder has a 12x optical zoom. I wonder how much difference I will see with just 10x?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3Dmadman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Don,
> 
> I am getting sound. According to the features list it says-
> 
> 
> Windows Media 7.1 and 5.1 multichannel audio decoding
> 
> 
> I cant tell if I am getting 5.1 on those two samples that I have. Obviously I would like to have more raw samples.
> 
> 
> Another concern that I have is that my current 2d camcorder has a 12x optical zoom. I wonder how much difference I will see with just 10x?



Thought I already answered but maybe it didn't take. I'm on the iPad.

When I get back home I'll upload some nice video shot these last few days with the TD10.


I went back to an outdoor classical concert I shot in DD2.0 Friday and reshot it tonight in DD5.1. oboe, cello, and violin. Really sounded great in the headphones!


----------



## JonStatt

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Philsan* 
Hi.

Regarding audio, could you please make an audio test in a silent room?

I had a Sony HDR-CX700 (IMHO identical to HD10 apart 3D) and there was a background noise: multiupload.com/BIPSG02B6Y (audio set to "normal").

Thanks
As was mentioned previously to me, the Sony uses auto gain which cannot be switched off. So in a quiet room, yes there will be noise. It is frustrating that this cannot be disabled. I believe this will apply whether you use the internal mic or an external one connected to the mic-in which is somewhat frustrating.


I still wonder exactly what market this camcorder was aimed at. It seems to have a confused identity. Sony must have been confused themselves. Priced far too high to be for many consumers, having some features found on semi-pro models such as manual controls (2D), yet missing fundamental others like the mic gain.


Even the quality of the construction is a mixed bag. It uses a grippy/sticky rubber on one side which is great quality. It uses a silver glossy scratch resistant coating to the left side. The black shiny plastic which is normally a scratch magnet, is a more resistant "speckly" finish. And then you have the base of the camera which is matt black and is pitiful and will scratch if you just put it down on a table and move it slightly as the rubber feet give less than 0.5mm clearance! On top of that my friends TD10 which was sealed with Sony tape already came with a small scratch on that plate. Only 3 of the pathetic feet are rubber and the 4th is just a protuding bit of plastic.


----------



## Philsan

Quote:

Originally Posted by *JonStatt* 
As was mentioned previously to me, the Sony uses auto gain which cannot be switched off. So in a quiet room, yes there will be noise. It is frustrating that this cannot be disabled. I believe this will apply whether you use the internal mic or an external one connected to the mic-in which is somewhat frustrating.
Thanks Jon.


I found that the auto-gain causes problems (with my CX700) not only in rare situations (like a silent room) but every time there aren't continuous background sounds.

For example, if people in a room stops talking, you hear the noise.


----------



## jraaronson

After having returned the JVC 3D camcorder within 3 days, I was eager to get the Sony version.


So far, I like it. The lenses are way too close together, and I have to experiment on what it will take to get a natural looking 3D that isn't flat. My sense (and knowledge of 3D) tells me that I just need to shoot closer to the subject than I am used to in order to get better (ie: more lifelike) 3D.


I was able to pop the MVC into vegas and get the clip to show up in 3D. However, I on here (in one of the sony threads!) that someone said if you import the MVC file into a 2D project that you will see both left and right clips as separate files. I can't make that happen. Anyone else?


Also, I'm sad that almost all functionality of the camera is lost once in 3D mode. Is this a software or a hardware thing? Do we think more manual options will be available to us in 3D mode after a firmware upgrade at some point, or is that wishful thinking?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jraaronson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> After having returned the JVC 3D camcorder within 3 days, I was eager to get the Sony version.
> 
> 
> So far, I like it. The lenses are way too close together, and I have to experiment on what it will take to get a natural looking 3D that isn't flat. My sense (and knowledge of 3D) tells me that I just need to shoot closer to the subject than I am used to in order to get better (ie: more lifelike) 3D.
> 
> 
> I was able to pop the MVC into vegas and get the clip to show up in 3D. However, I on here (in one of the sony threads!) that someone said if you import the MVC file into a 2D project that you will see both left and right clips as separate files. I can't make that happen. Anyone else?
> 
> 
> Also, I'm sad that almost all functionality of the camera is lost once in 3D mode. Is this a software or a hardware thing? Do we think more manual options will be available to us in 3D mode after a firmware upgrade at some point, or is that wishful thinking?



Wishful thinking!










If you needed manual audio control it is available with the pro version nexcam. It has the accessory that mounts on top of the TD 10 and attaches to the hot shoe. It has 2 xlr audio jacks for mic level and line level inputs plus volume controls. Also, has power for condenser mics. I didn't check out other manual controls. Personally, shooting amateur video, I prefer the TD10 in auto low mode. I'm doing more and more run and gun shooting so good auto is preferred to manual these days. If I need professional features, I have the big boys to set up. But that's too much work unless I'm getting paid.







. Also, JVC has their pro version as well with similar to Sony features.


In case you were wondering if the pro attachments will fit the TD10, no I checked that out and the pro version is a slight different mounting than the TD10. Bottom line, you want pro features, buy the pro stuff.


----------



## markr041

"Bottom line, you want pro features, buy the pro stuff. "


Don, I have to disagree with you here. Manual audio is not only as useful to sound as manual exposure to video, but it is offered on almost all consumer camcorders (near the top end) from other manufacturers. JVC, Panasonic and Canon all allow you to defeat autogain and set audio levels, with metering. Sony is the one, lonely exception to this. Manual audio is not even offered in the semi-pro NEX cameras. Only Sony, and its obvious fans, believe that manual audio is a pro feature (is manual focus only a pro feature?).


Moreover, autogain, _un_like autoexposure, is harmful - it crushes dynamics. It makes for noisy video in quiet environments because it pumps up the ambient noise. It ruins music with dynamics (acoustic) by eliminating them unnaturally. It creates annoying pumped up noise between sentences in an interview - pushing up background noise when the speaker pauses.


While autogain is useful in insuring against overload, there is no defense for pooh-poohing the value of manual audio. Sony, again, is the exception here; Again, you do not need to purchase pro equipment to get manual control over audio, you just have to avoid Sony.


Sorry.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20478154
> 
> 
> "Bottom line, you want pro features, buy the pro stuff. "
> 
> 
> Don, I have to disagree with you here. Manual audio is not only as useful to sound as manual exposure to video, but it is offered on almost all consumer camcorders (near the top end) from other manufacturers. JVC, Panasonic and Canon all allow you to defeat autogain and set audio levels, with metering. Sony is the one, lonely exception to this. Manual audio is not even offered in the semi-pro NEX cameras. Only Sony, and its obvious fans, believe that manual audio is a pro feature (is manual focus only a pro feature?).
> 
> 
> Moreover, autogain, _un_like autoexposure, is harmful - it crushes dynamics. It makes for noisy video in quiet environments because it pumps up the ambient noise. It ruins music with dynamics (acoustic) by eliminating them unnaturally. It creates annoying pumped up noise between sentences in an interview - pushing up background noise when the speaker pauses.
> 
> 
> While autogain is useful in insuring against overload, there is no defense for pooh-poohing the value of manual audio. Sony, again, is the exception here; Again, you do not need to purchase pro equipment to get manual control over audio, you just have to avoid Sony.
> 
> 
> Sorry.


----------



## DueN




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20478154
> 
> 
> "Bottom line, you want pro features, buy the pro stuff. "
> 
> 
> Only Sony, and its obvious fans, believe that manual audio is a pro feature (is manual focus only a pro feature?).



Reading through the thread, it's kinda obvious who that is. Reader beware!


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> "Bottom line, you want pro features, buy the pro stuff. "
> 
> 
> Don, I have to disagree with you here. Manual audio is not only as useful to sound as manual exposure to video, but it is offered on almost all consumer camcorders (near the top end) from other manufacturers. JVC, Panasonic and Canon all allow you to defeat autogain and set audio levels, with metering. Sony is the one, lonely exception to this. Manual audio is not even offered in the semi-pro NEX cameras. Only Sony, and its obvious fans, believe that manual audio is a pro feature (is manual focus only a pro feature?).
> 
> 
> Moreover, autogain, unlike autoexposure, is harmful - it crushes dynamics. It makes for noisy video in quiet environments because it pumps up the ambient noise. It ruins music with dynamics (acoustic) by eliminating them unnaturally. It creates annoying pumped up noise between sentences in an interview - pushing up background noise when the speaker pauses.
> 
> 
> While autogain is useful in insuring against overload, there is no defense for pooh-poohing the value of manual audio. Sony, again, is the exception here; Again, you do not need to purchase pro equipment to get manual control over audio, you just have to avoid Sony.
> 
> 
> Sorry.



Nobody is saying that manual audio doesn't have it's place and Sony does offer it in their next level up of prosumer, or semi professional level gear. You may not like the idea that a company offers several levels and has buyers at all of these, but that is what Sony does. If you hate Sony so much and how they package their equipment, don't buy it. Go buy Panasonic or JVC. You should buy what features you find most important. If no one offers what you desire then prioritize your list of needs and wants. When I shoot for broadcast, I don't use this level of equipment. But for personal use I like what it does and find that allowing some things to just be done in auto is quite acceptable to me and my audience.


Yes, the nexcam version of the TD10 does indeed have manual audio. But it is typical professional quality and is simple ch1 and ch 2. There is no DD5.1 in the manual mix mode. It also offers time code. Is that also something you find most amateurs needing? I think you're the one mistaken here. Most consumers want auto and will shoot in auto. It's the wanna bee professionals who desire the pro features yet refuse to acquire that level equipment. Most likely the reason is budget. These cameras do get expensive so that unless one has a way to generate income with them, they are usually not affordable.


----------



## jraaronson

what I am actually missing the most is the way manual convergence settings work. I get that you rotate the manual dial. But, there is no screen setting for an overlay mode, so I can't do any precise convergence control. Seeing everything in 3D WHILE altering the convergence is not a good way to alter the convergence. I need to see both images and then adjust the overlay.


Why is that not possible?


----------



## tlochner

where can you get a polarizer filter that fits the hdr-td10???


----------



## tlochner

btw, bh photo had 35 in stock this morning after shipping all the preorders out.

good luck

tony


----------



## geezin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20435414
> 
> 
> Thanks Don npfv100 list everywheres at 159 Amazon 48 buck
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks ordered 1 up



Just curious... Is it working? Could you post the UPC?


----------



## Michael Worley

The prosumer NXCAM HXR-NX3D1 will provide a separate display modes for left or right images, and an L/R composite mix of left and right images are also

available for easier confirmation of disparity.


_________

Michael


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jraaronson* /forum/post/20479075
> 
> 
> what I am actually missing the most is the way manual convergence settings work. I get that you rotate the manual dial. But, there is no screen setting for an overlay mode, so I can't do any precise convergence control. Seeing everything in 3D WHILE altering the convergence is not a good way to alter the convergence. I need to see both images and then adjust the overlay.
> 
> 
> Why is that not possible?



I agree! So far most of my work has been in situations where I have had to rely on auto settings as the shooting environment didn't permit me to take the time to do manual setups. But the few times I did get the opportunity, what I did for the 3D manual adjust is frame the shot with foreground, middle, and background objects, then use a middle ground in the scene that has a small hard edge, like a point light white spot, of a thin hard object like a vertical post. Then slowly adjust the knob to be sure the double images converge Next to the little 3D icon you will see a + and - as you roll through the adjustment. When it appears right on the screen is also when the + and - just go off.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tlochner* /forum/post/20480991
> 
> 
> where can you get a polarizer filter that fits the hdr-td10???



There is no way to easily fit a polarizer filter to the TD10. What I did was just hold up a large diameter 82mm filter for an experiment. I plan to buy the Cavision mattebox and will need to make some slight modifications for it to fit around the manual adj knob on the TD10. The TD10 does have a convenient 3" dia. flange to facilitate the Cavision clamp-on mounting of the mattebox. This won't be an easy off the shelf accessory.


----------



## JonStatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jraaronson* /forum/post/20479075
> 
> 
> what I am actually missing the most is the way manual convergence settings work. I get that you rotate the manual dial. But, there is no screen setting for an overlay mode, so I can't do any precise convergence control. Seeing everything in 3D WHILE altering the convergence is not a good way to alter the convergence. I need to see both images and then adjust the overlay.
> 
> 
> Why is that not possible?



I would just move my head so I am not looking at the screen "correctly" for 3D and you can then see both images and align manually that way.


----------



## jraaronson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JonStatt* /forum/post/20483924
> 
> 
> I would just move my head so I am not looking at the screen "correctly" for 3D and you can then see both images and align manually that way.



yeah, that's been my solution so far. Seems a little silly that that is the only solution for now!


I hope Sony will change things with a firmware upgrade at some point.


----------



## 3Dmadman

PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER

Ok, I received my toy yesterday. I got everything working. Here is what I did.

My setup-

Panasonic TC-P58VT25

NVidia GTX 460 connected HDMI

Quad Core, Overclocked with 8 GB Ram, Windows 7


I installed the following software-

Klite codec pack 710 mega

Media Player Classic Home Cinema

NVidia 3dtv play activation utility

NVidia 3d Vision Video Player


Setup Nvidia 3dtv play using the supplied pdf


Now just try and play the NVidia sample videos with the glasses. Use the NVidia 3d Vision Video Player. YOU MUST ZOOM TO FULL SCREEN TO GET 3D TO WORK. Now, if you made it this far install the following software-


Neoplayer

Stereoscopic Player


I recorded some videos on the SDHC card and just copied a few raw .mts streams to my pc using a card reader.

Now open one in stereoscopic player.


Click View, Viewing Method, NVIDIA 3D Vision

Click File, Video Properties, Settings Tab, and check the Interlaced Video(deinterlacing required) checkbox

Click on View, Full Screen Scaled


I use two different resolutions for this, each with its own advantages-

[email protected] is my default resolution.

[email protected] is a resolution setup by 3dtv play. Interesting in that you dont have run in full screen mode to get 3d using stereoscopic player!

Its like having a 3d pip window on my TV. The only downside is that the color has too much blue. I am working on changing the color settings in my display adapter.


You can use Media Player Classic Home Cinema or even Windows Media Player to view in 2D(Thats the Klite Codec).


AunSoft Final Mate is my favorite editing software but as of now it cant handle MVC. I have contacted their tech support and hopefully this will get resolved soon.


The results are dramatic. The 3d is razor sharp with no crosstalk even at 10x optical zoom. I am just amazed at how good this looks. I have Directv 3d channels and they all have crosstalk. The only thing that can compare to this is Avatar Blu Ray at 96hz.


OK, I hope this helps get everything working.


----------



## HarpuaFSB

Hey everyone, not sure if this goes here or in a Vegas thread so I apologize in advance if this post is in the wrong place.


Anyway, I picked up the HDR-TD10 and the picture on the TD10 is phenomenal and when the camera is hooked up to a 3DTV via HDMI, the 3D is awesome too.


I know the options for working with MVC files are limited to either the very expensive tools and then there's Vegas 10.0d which I picked up.


I'm not very familiar with Vegas having used CS5 tools exclusively so the learning curve is a bit steep.


I was wondering if anyone had any success using Vegas to author a 3D Blu-ray?


I figured out on my own that you have to change a Vegas project's properties stereoscopic 3D mode to "blend" to have it work properly with the files. Is that correct?


I also am having difficulty with the 3D bitrate. The camera shoots at 28 Mbps but the options for burning to Blu-ray using MVC maxes out at 10 Mbps which is unacceptable.


I also figured out that you can up that to 25 Mbps by going into the Render As... option and setting up a custom spec there but when I use the custom spec in a project the best I seem to pull after a successful 3D Blu-ray burn is 10-18 Mbps.


Anyone have any suggestions as to what setting I may be missing that is giving me a crappy bitrate?


Thanks!


----------



## Don Landis

The HDR TD10 shoots at 28Mbs total so it is 14 per image variable. Not as high as the professional cams and certainly not as high as some film to video conversions for Hollywood 3D productions. Many of your concerns about Vegas have been addressed in the Vegas / editing threads.


As we say in the classes and OJT for young videographers, spend more time developing your shooting skills and less time worrying about the difference in bit rate or or various HD resolutions and you'll better dazzle your audience.







The HDR TD10 will give you more than enough quality, technically.


At the end of the day of shooting and I look at my work, I complain more about my own mistakes than bit rate of my equipment.


----------



## HarpuaFSB

I get what you're saying but the difference in PQ between what is displayed directly from the camera/files and what was rendered and burned to Blu-ray from Vegas was very noticeable.


I will track down those Vegas threads, thanks.


----------



## lycheejo

wow..., I think I am one of the first owners IN GERMANY of the TD10 yesterday.... I also have the TD 1 and feel the sony is a little toy against it....


I have a special question - maybe it was answered elsewhere here - gimme a chance please:


I cannot lock the recording time on the display. It shows up for some seconds and then gone.... pushing the display again, it´s coming back for seconds...

How do I know about my remaining job by not knowing recording times?

Any hints there?

I cannot find anything in the manuals....


Big thanks

Lycheejo


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> I cannot lock the recording time on the display. It shows up for some seconds and then gone.... pushing the display again, it´s coming back for seconds...
> 
> How do I know about my remaining job by not knowing recording times?



Menu/Camera-Mic/Shooting assist/ Display setting


Switch from Auto to ON


This will keep your recording timer on. Also remaining battery on.


Disadvantage is you lose the record button and zoom control on screen, must use the hard buttons on the camcorder.


As we say in America- Nothing is free.


----------



## lycheejo

great, thanks DON...


yeah, missing the record-button is toooo bad....

Nothing is perfect...


----------



## Don Landis

We've had some really great test studies of low light test charts but how does it really perform in the real world?


I wanted to see how it does with some real world subjects. On my recent trip to Disney, I shot lots of 3D video. Over 11 hours of clips to be more precise. On the first night out with less than 2 hours experience with the TD10, I shot the following on a walk through during sunset at the Disney Downtown and Pleasure Island. I see the darkest shots are barely visible with anaglyph glasses but a burn to BD and on my Sony VW90ES projector the image is quite acceptable. This tells me that for anaglyph, I need to be careful about too low light conditions. Still, the production quality under minimal lighting is surprisingly good.


Everything on the camera was in Auto mode with Auto Intelligence set to on. The sound was mostly in DD2.0 except the opening shots where I had left the camcorder on DD5.1 and this part was edited without the work around for 5.1 distortion. Therefore there is that annoying ticking distortion. I will fix that in later update as time permits. Check it out-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RazuWHO_m1U


----------



## TomWheeler

Don,


Great job on the Disney World 3D project! I just watched it up to the 10.03 minute part where it froze and I could not get YouTube to download further material. Very nice use of zoom with a steady hand on the zoom rate. Not as easy to do as you make it look, but practice makes perfect. Needless to say I enjoyed all the music on the video, especially the classical trio. Well done, and thanks for sharing.


Tom


----------



## Don Landis

Tom- I was thinking of you the whole time I shot the classical performance.







There are a half dozen numbers they performed and I will be rendering those for you as time permits. The walk through is only 10 minutes long so it fades to black with the train ride.


I'm experimenting with a really long piece now. It is a half hour performance of the Lion King- Circle in the round theater. This I shot using DD5.1 and used the new work around and the sound is very clean. It's been rendering for 4 hours now and has an hour to go. I don't even know if You Tube will permit such a long video. So, I'm experimenting.










Yes hand holding still for long time periods is not easy. Requires concentration but in a crowd, people constantly bump into you. So, I get what I can and don't fret about it.


----------



## Don Landis

Got board waiting for a long render of my next edit so I decided to work on the TD10 and make the threaded mount for lens filters.


After careful measurements I determined the easiest attachment to get would be a 1:1 step ring 77mm since the ID of the male thread seems to just slip over the smaller diameter of the partial circle of the TD10 lens frame. I couldn't ask for a closer fit. Just needed a few tiny drops of Crazy Glue to secure the threaded ring.


About that ring- Tiffen used to make these spacer rings in 1:1 but I discovered they are on special order and a long time to get and very expensive. A much much cheaper route is to use a cheap 1A filter and just remove the glass as it is locked in place by a threaded inner ring, removable with a little screw driver and a bit of science. ( Take an ice cube to the glass and a soldering tip to the metal. The expansion and contraction will loosen the lock ring and it easily unscrews allowing the glass to be removed. )


There are two conflicts that need correction. In the third picture, the top of the ring circle exposes the back of the filter which could be a problem of back glare should a light creep in here so this needs to be sealed up. I used a thin piece of black plastic sheet and carefully cut it to the shape of the curved top of the camera and the inner diameter of the inside of the step ring. I then glued this in place with some black rubber cement. Cleaned off the excess with an xacto knife and let everything dry.


The second conflict is the manual control knob. This turned out to be not an issue since the use of the step ring completely cleared the manual knob.


The microphone is completely exposed so I don't think the filter lenses will be an issue. Have to go do some shooting to see if this is a problem.


A quick test of the polarizer showed excellent glare reduction in both swimming pool surface and window glass reflections without affecting the 3D effects in the shot.


I think for anyone wanting to achieve superior results with image quality, adding a threaded ring to the front of the TD10 is a must have.


I'm thinking of getting a warming filter, and a step ring to 82mm for my other filters that work on my broadcast camera. I'm not sure if I will order a mattebox at this point as they are expensive and I don't know how much critical shooting I will be doing.


----------



## TomWheeler

Don and All,


While my first edited project with the Sony HDR-TD10 does not compare with Don's, I present this link to it for your enjoyment: http://www.tnwheeler.com/first-sony-hdr-td10-3d . Lake Lynn is a favorite walk that my wife and I often take. All of the sound except the music on the closing credits is the sound recorded by the TD10. I was trying a mix of near and distant scenes in order to better learn to use the camera so you will see some relatively flat (from a 3D perspective) scenes at full zoom as well as some nice 3D scenes that show off even in anaglyph the excellent 3D quality of this camcorder.


This link is to my own server which downloads quite well to my home computer. The file is about 460 MB so give it a few minutes to begin playing. This was rendered in h.264 to a 960 X 540 pixel format (half 1080p) which works well for posting on the web.


Tom


----------



## Don Landis

Video looked very nice, Tom. You should title it "Feed the Ducks"










It did not play in IE but I think you succeeded in making a 3D video that only plays on my ipad and nowhere else.







Anyway, looked good on the ipad.


The sound was clean, so did you record using 5.1 and edited with the work around or record with 2.0? I was on the ipad to view so it just came out monaural.


----------



## TomWheeler

The video is an h.264 encoded in Vegas and plays fine in Internet Explorer 9 and Safari and will soon play in Firefox when the conversion is complete. Glad to hear that it plays on the iPad. It was recorded on the camera in 5.1 but was encoded to stereo for the web. Oh, that white bird at a distance is a swan







. How about that big turtle on the log catching some rays near the beginning. What a pose!


Tom


----------



## Joseph Clark

Very nice video, Tom. How about a side by side render at 960x1080? I right clicked and selected "Save Link As." It downloaded really fast for me from your server and played just fine in Windows Media Player. I'd love to see it with true color. If you don't want it streaming at that resolution, Dropbox is a way to get 2GB of free storage.


----------



## markr041

Here is what I saw and heard.


1. The sound is superb - the honks of the geese (ducks?) and the joggers plodding by huffing and puffing were great. I really enjoy videos with actual sound. And the fidelity was terrific. In surround sound it must be really great.


2. It is clear that the 3-16 foot (approximate) window rule REALLY matters. If there is nothing in the area, there is simply no 3D, not even a "window" effect. In this regard, the duck feeding off the bridge with the railing was the most effective. So was the woman on the bench and the sign. Distant shots framed by closer greenery were 3D, but the distant scenes beyond the frame were simply cardboard flat. Ducks in the water were flat.


3. In anaglyph red/cyan (I assume that is what it was), there is essentailly no color at all in this video. No color on the geese, no blue sky or water, no clothes color - was this full-color anaglyph? I did see green, of course.


4. Lots of blown highlights. This is common among consumer camcorders - was this overexposure, or just simply too little dynamic range? Even the shots with only ducks in water had blown highlights, as did the woman on the bench, so I suspect a bit of both.


These issues are all about the limits of the technology, not the photographer. But it is clear to me that if we are to interest others in 3D, we have to learn what works best for 3D and how to work with anaglyph. I think I would much rather see the full color 2D version than this 3D anaglyph (obviously, the full-color 3D would be even better).


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> The video is an h.264 encoded in Vegas and plays fine in Internet Explorer 9...



Tom I just checked and on this computer ( not my video editing computer) the file doesn't play in IE ver.8 It may be due to my Quicktime being older Ver 7.6.9 I mostly use FireFox on this machine which is the latest version.


What's funny is that YouTube is pretty good for two reasons, first it has this program where the user can decide which way to view the video in 3D and resolution. Second, it gives your video much greater exposure than any personal web site. FYI-I used to sell video streaming services back before YouTube. Back then I thought Broadcast.com was going to be my competitive death. Mark Cuban sold it to Yahoo and they buried it. So, I had a thriving business with this until YouTube went commercial on Google. Another reason I retired from the business!







I don't even maintain my own web page anymore. I still have my own server because I have 3 more years on the long term contract. Anyway- the point is that with Facebook and Youtube, personal web pages and servers are not very efficient for stuff like this. The only remaining advantage left is you still can be in control.


My next upload ( going on right now ) will be Animal Kingdom's Lion King show. I had to do this in three parts as You Tube limits the length to 15 minutes and 2 Gb. The 32min show did make it under 2Gb as a wmv in 1080p but the time length was greatly exceeded. I didn't want to edit this and just show how a 30 minute show is shot hand held from the audience. In many Disney shows, shooting "video tape" is forbidden, some they say no cameras with a lighted screen, and others they say video is permitted but no flash photography. The Lion King was surprisingly just no Flash Photography. I suppose I could always make an argument my cameras don't use "video tape" but the argument would be silly as I understand their right to control what the audience can and can't do. So, I abide by whatever they say.

In shooting The Lion King, I used DD5.1 but did extract the 5.1 from Vegas Movie Studio work around. (What a great discovery to resolve that bug) and tried to make the Part breaks at an appropriate time in the show. Other than that, no additional editing. PS- This is one location I could have used a 28mm wide angle lens on the TD10. Disney theaters are typically very wide stages with action happening all across the stage even to wrap around to the sides; this allows more of the audience to be close to the performance. Traditional theaters are long and deep which is a disadvantage for people in the back rows.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20500798
> 
> 
> Here is what I saw and heard.
> 
> 
> 1. The sound is superb - the honks of the geese (ducks?) and the joggers plodding by huffing and puffing were great. I really enjoy videos with actual sound. And the fidelity was terrfic. In surround sound it must be really great.
> 
> 
> 2. It is clear that the 3-16 foot (approximate) window rule REALLY matters. If there is nothing in the area, there is simply no 3D, not even a "window" effect. In this regard, the duck feeding off the bridge with the railing was the most effective. So was the woman on the bench and the sign. Distant shots framed by closer greenery were 3D, but the distant scenes beyond the frame were simply cardboard flat. Ducks in the water were flat.
> 
> 
> 3. In anaglyph red/cyan (I assume that is what it was), there is essentailly no color at all in this video. No color on the geese, no blue sky or water, no clothes color - was this full-color anaglyph? I did see green, of course.
> 
> 
> 4. Lots of blown highlights. This is common among consumer camcorders - was this overexposure, or just simply too little dynamic range? Even the shots with only ducks in water had blown highlights, as did the woman on the bench, so I suspect a bit of both.
> 
> 
> These issues are all about the limits of the technology, not the photographer. But it is clear to me that if we are to interest others in 3D, we have to learn what works best for 3D and how to work with anaglyph. I think I would much rather see the full color 2D version than this 3D anaglyph (obviously, the full-color 3D would be even better).



Really excellent points Mark. Couple of comments-


1. Lack of color in anaglyph- I have been noticing this too and I think the solution is to work with shots that do have lots of brilliant color. Nature on the east half of the US is predominately green so good luck getting landscape with color, especially brilliant color to pop through the filtering of anaglyph red / cyan. Best we have are bright sunny days in Flower gardens, a rare number of locations. I have some to show shot at Epcot Disney and hope to get editing later this coming week. Shooting 3D, I'm learning is like realestate- What are the three most important aspects of shooting 3D? Location, Location, and Location!







Where are the desert and western reds and browns 3D shooters?










2. Blown out highlights- I partially agree with you on this. Having shot broadcast cameras for over 20 years, I must say this can easily happen with them too. The trick is to carefully watch for this in the viewfinder and have good manual control over the auto exposure. In bigger cameras, just backing off a hair below an average f-stop set by auto will often pop out the detail in the whites, especially clouds. Zebra- This is a nice tool on professional cameras but all too often cameraman get lazy and will allow 5-10% zebra in the shot. On critical set lighting design, I worked to just reduce all zebra to zero with it's calibration set for 100%. But in most of my TV shows I never used Zebra. In true set design, I worked multiple lights to set all parts of a set for proper lighting and used a waveform monitor to calibrate this. Obviously these things are what we do in a properly budgeted production. With consumer shooting, I recognize that the tools and time to get the shot do not coincide with what I know is picture perfect, so I have my favorite excuse- "Good enough to document my experience and not annoy"

3. Equipment limitations- I am willing to trade off many features to achieve a quick adequate shot. ( My philosophy) Some things I can't change while others I can. To correct some of the washout in the video and intensify the color, the use of filters is an important tool of the trade. This is why I felt the need to add a threaded ring to my TD10. It's an easy way to enhance the image once you learn the art of filters. Cokin and Tiffen offer excellent instruction in this area.

4. "Sound is superb..." Yes it was on his Lake video. Just shows that just because the latest technology is "auto gain" doesn't mean that the sound will pump background noise as was common in older cameras. This area of technology is improving as well. Sony has always been a leader in quality sound. What they did in the Bloggie 3D is amazing. Sony is pioneering the science of intelligent audio, something that Shure invented with their Intellimix. I really like their ability to adjust the cardioid pattern of the mic picups based on the lens zoom setting.

5.


> Quote:
> It is clear that the 3-16 foot (approximate) window rule REALLY matters.



Sometimes I hate rules! This is one of them.







Personally, I'm over the excitement of every shot has to be a smack in your face 3D. The story is what's important and if a flat look works and 3D smack in your face distracts then back off the 3D. For amateur home video shooting, i prefer to see on screen what I experienced at that time, to relive a memory. Many of the publications we are seeing now with our group in 3D is primarily to demonstrate the equipment as opposed to telling the story. MY goal is to shoot so that the 3D effects are not the story but just happen when they add. something visually pleasing. I liked how Tom established his shots with good 3D and then the closeups were more about what the ducks were doing. The 3D was still there but the impact of the 3D did not distract because it became very subtle.


----------



## markr041

Don, good discussion.


I will have a beach (East coast!) video posted soon (Bloggie) where I deliberately shot with anaglyph 3D presentation in mind: bright light (of course), but also looked for green, blue and yellow subjects, and tried to get shots that had depth - more than two distances. No pop in the face stuff, but I wanted at least a window-like look at worst. And, also subjects in many cases that move (this is, after all, video). Some interesting sounds too, but there was a problem with wind noise.


----------



## TomWheeler

Mark,


Many thanks for your detailed comments on the video on my server. This was my very first video shot with the Sony HDR-10D and I am certainly in the process of learning to shoot in 3D so your comments were constructive and helpful.


You are absolutely right about the 3-16 foot rule. Beyond that you are seeing 2D with little or no 3D.


Regarding your third point of "essentially no color at all in the anaglyph video", I am puzzled by that. There is not much color in many of these scenes to begin with, i.e. the ducks are black and white, my wife was wearing black and white, and the sky was overcast and bright, but not a blue sky. The predominate color is green and brown of the water. When I look at the anaglyph video through my red-cyan glasses, I see the typical muting of colors caused by viewing through anaglyph classes, but the color that was in the scene in faithfully replicated in muted form.


Lots of blown out highlights is a fair assessment, and I agree. Mind you all of this video was shot on full automatic with no attempt at correcting the exposure in either the camera or in Vegas during editing. We were taking these at about 1 PM and the bright overcast sky and shadows of the woods was simply beyond the range of the Sony camera to expose properly. I don't think any consumer camera would have done much better with that latitude range.


Mark, regarding the carousel video that you posted on the Sony Bloggie thread, let me add my complements for some very fine shooting. The shots are amazingly stable and quite nice overall.


Tom


----------



## TomWheeler

Don,


Excellent suggestion that I begin using YouTube. It was late last night when I finally got this h.264 video uploaded to our server. Using our server has worked well for me with our 2D videos posted over the last few years, but 3D anaglyph is another matter. My wife is our webmaster and she has been pulling her hair out trying to get our videos to be compatible with various browsers, versions of browsers, etc. In the future, I shall post my 3D videos to YouTube and let them worry about it.


As a guy who has been shooting amateur video for many years, I agree with your statement that many 3D videos over emphasize the 3D'ness of the scene rather than tell a story. And, yes there was a conscious effort on my part to set up the Lake Lynn video with some scenes showing 3D and then to focus on the activities that make this walk fun without worrying about the 3D quality of the resulting clip. For example, when the white swan swam by on the other side of the lake from us, I was certainly not going to pass up the shot because he was too far away to get a good 3D shot.


Tom


----------



## Don Landis

Mark- Looking forward to it. It may satisfy a question I have wanted to test with anaglyph- You are looking for greens and deep blues and yellows while I theoretically suggested even deeper more brilliant cyans and reds in the subject to compensate for the reduction due to the red / cyan filtering of the glasses.


What I'm thinking is that in the edit one could pump up the red gamma and cyan gamma in the production to make a more desirable color blend for anaglyph in the program content. This color adjustment will not be desirable for non red / cyan anaglyph of course.

If you wanted to see some bold magenta, cyan, and yellows check out my Mothers Day pool side video shot with the Bloggie3D. The Lizard float is about as bright yellow as you can get. When I bought this at the Pool store, I was thinking photographically.


----------



## TomWheeler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/20500752
> 
> 
> Very nice video, Tom. How about a side by side render at 960x1080? I right clicked and selected "Save Link As." It downloaded really fast for me from your server and played just fine in Windows Media Player. I'd love to see it with true color. If you don't want it streaming at that resolution, Dropbox is a way to get 2GB of free storage.



Joe,


Thank you for your kind remarks. I am sufficiently sick of working on the Lake Lynn video that it may be a while before I get around to do a side-by-side render and posting it, but if I do so, I'll let you know with a post here.


I can tell you that the Blu-ray burned in Vegas 10d of this video looks really nice on our Sony VPL-VW90ES projector on a 100 in. wide screen. I certainly have not come close to equaling that with the anaglyph video posted on our web site.


Tom


----------



## markr041

Tom and Don, this is a really helpful discussion. We are all learning what works and what does not in 3D, given the limitations of the cameras we have available.


While I agree that it is usually desirable to have setup long shots in a video, followed by closer shots. Given the limitations of the camera, we know the long view will be flat. But I think it is disconcerting for the viewer to see flat 2D shots followed by 3D shots - it actually draws attantion to the 3D, which is bad - we want the video to look natural. So, one would need two cameras or adjustable interaxial lens distance, before we can shoot using old 2D rules. What I am saying is, the whole video needs to show 3D, not go back and forth between 2D and 3D. The small-distance lens issue is a constraint, but it simply cannot be ignored.


----------



## markr041

I have posted the beach video in the Bloggie 3D thread.


Every shot has depth, every shot has color (in anaglyph). Not saying it is a great video, but is shot 3D- and anaglyph-aware. Sorry about the wind noise (subject of another thread).


----------



## Joseph Clark

I realize that the vast majority of people still can't see 3D on their TVs unless the video is anaglyph, but it does such horrible things to the image quality. And YouTube is equally destructive in its own way. I kept thinking, while I watched your video, Tom, that the original footage must have looked wonderful, and I wished I could see it.


That's why I'm maintaining a few videos shot with my JVC TD1 in my Dropbox account (still free until I pony up for some paid space







). They give a true idea of what the camcorder does, flaws and all. I'd really appreciate it if others would do something similar with examples of their own footage. I enjoy watching it, observing shooting techniques, and discussing issues. It's a great way to learn about 3D, and we could all watch the original footage (or something close to it) that way.


In that spirit, here are two videos, both shot on bright sunny days. The edited piece was shot in the JVC's side by side mode and thrown together in a few minutes in Corel VideoStudio Pro X4 (not a 3D editing package) . The other video is a single clip shot in the JVC's MVC mode. It's the original file, straight off the camcorder. It can be viewed in 2D with Windows 7 Media Player, or in 3D with Stereoscopic player if you have the right gear (I don't have it working yet on my computer). Everything was shot in full iA mode (intelligent Auto). There's some good color and lots of detail, so you can see the compromises of side by side mode quite easily, and the obvious superiority of MVC mode.


I doubt very seriously that I would consider switching from the JVC to the Sony at this point, but that's just because they're both obviously first gen products and I happen to like what I've seen with the JVC enough not to want to take a loss selling it. But there are things I like better about the Sony (broader zoom range, LANC). Next year, I may get Sony's second generation camcorder. For now, I just want to see good examples of what each can do. I just haven't seen much original stuff from the Sony at this point - just a couple of clips that weren't severely compromised. I'd love to see more original shots - 10 to 15 second lengths would be great.


----------



## Joseph Clark

For that second clip, depending on your browser, you may have to right click and select "Save Link As" in order to download and save it. In Firefox on my system, it attempts to load and play it in the browser if I left click.


----------



## markr041

It is a great idea to make available the original clips.


I have looked at the JVC sbs video; it is filled with compression artifacts - was this re-rendered in the Corel program, or was smart rendering used? The sbs JVC video is clearly inferior to the Bloggie sbs video I have seen even after editing in Vegas. So it is important to know how this video was processed. It would also be useful to have the original audio from the camera, rather than the generic music. Apart from good video practice, we are here trying to evaluate cameras. Can we perhaps have an unedited original sbs clip right from the camera?




I am going to try to make available the edited Bloggie video to download so it can be compared.


"Everything was shot in full iA mode (intelligent Auto). "


And almost every shot is overexposed, with blown highlights. This is typical of these cameras (interestingly, not the Bloggie). I assume that one can use exposure compensation in auto mode?


----------



## markr041

The 3D beach video, straight from Vegas Pro, can be downloaded here:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HMQXNMY0 



The 3D carousel video can be downloaded here:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=S2TPKE1F 


Both are SBS, full color.


----------



## Michael Worley

I'm new to the AVS Forum and have been shooting with the TD10 for two weeks now.


The majority of our projects are outdoors, on the water and in bright sunlight requiring filters for varying lighting conditions.


I've installed a Cavision 3x3 matte box mounted on a rod support system and made the necessary modification to the adapter ring for the TD10 to mount flush with the matte box.


I slide the matte box slightly forward when I need to use the manual dial for 3D adjustment, focus & exposure and then re-position against the camcorder for the shot sequence.


I'm also using a Sony SH-L35WBP LCD foldable hood which was custom made for the HVR-V1U HDV camcorder's 3.5" LCD monitor.


My goal is to use a similar setup on the NX3D1 for 3D multi-camera back country field projects.


Cavision 3x3 matte box -MB385PW

Cavision rod support system - RS15IIM

Sony SH-L35WBP LCD foldable hood

_____________________________

Michael


l Attachment 213393 

Attachment 213394 

Attachment 213395 

Attachment 213396 

Attachment 213397


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20501640
> 
> 
> It is a great idea to make available the original clips.
> 
> 
> I have looked at the JVC sbs video; it is filled with compression artifacts - was this re-rendered in the Corel program, or was smart rendering used? The sbs JVC video is clearly inferior to the Bloggie sbs video I have seen even after editing in Vegas. So it is important to know how this video was processed. It would also be useful to have the original audio from the camera, rather than the generic music. Apart from good video practice, we are here trying to evaluate cameras. Can we perhaps have an unedited original sbs clip right from the camera?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to try to make available the edited Bloggie video to download so it can be compared.
> 
> 
> "Everything was shot in full iA mode (intelligent Auto). "
> 
> 
> And almost every shot is overexposed, with blown highlights. This is typical of these cameras (interestingly, not the Bloggie). I assume that one can use exposure compensation in auto mode?



This topic probably deserves a thread of its own, rather than diluting the Sony thread with things some owners won't be concerned with at all. We should start one.


Anyway, to address your comments...


Yes, compression artifacts can be a problem with the JVC in side by side mode. They're noticeable in several of the shots in the edited piece. And yes, Corel uses smart rendering. Only the transitions are supposed to be rendered. The JVC also occasionally does something with bright highlights - still don't quite have a handle on that. Compression artifacts are seldom a problem in MVC mode.


If contrast is extremely high, all these cameras blow out bright objects in the shot. Your Bloggie shots demonstrate that clearly. Look out the windows in the carousel video. But I'm really impressed with what this $250 device can do. I would have bought one in a heartbeat if it had been available a few months ago. Just remarkable.


I don't agree that almost all the JVC side by side shots are overexposed. Actually, in iA mode, I think the JVC does a remarkable job of balancing the exposure to give a pleasing image. Virtually any camera is going to have trouble if the contrast range is extreme, such as in bright sunshine. What I look for, though, is the ability of the camera to retain some of the blue of the sky in such shots. In most cases, the JVC does that. Shooting through a window from a relatively dark interior to a bright sky, you practically guarantee overexposure - such as in your carousel video.


The JVC gives you selective manual control while shooting (2D or 3D), but I find it does an excellent job in iA mode. For my purposes, I almost never consider using it. It's there, though.

Here's an original clip from that edited piece that has the ambient audio. Don't know how valuable it might be, but you can pick up on the water, a person talking and what sounds like a chain saw somewhere in the distance. Auto gain was being used, not manual.


----------



## markr041

Thanks, Joseph. I have appreciated your contributions. This clip looks very good.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Michael Worley* /forum/post/20502131
> 
> 
> I'm new to the AVS Forum and have been shooting with the TD10 for two weeks now.
> 
> 
> The majority of our projects are outdoors, on the water and in bright sunlight requiring filters for varying lighting conditions.
> 
> 
> I've installed a Cavision 3x3 matte box mounted on a rod support system and made the necessary modification to the adapter ring for the TD10 to mount flush with the matte box.
> 
> 
> I slide the matte box slightly forward when I need to use the manual dial for 3D adjustment, focus & exposure and then re-position against the camcorder for the shot sequence.
> 
> 
> I'm also using a Sony SH-L35WBP LCD foldable hood which was custom made for the HVR-V1U HDV camcorder's 3.5" LCD monitor.
> 
> 
> My goal is to use a similar setup on the NX3D1 for 3D multi-camera back country field projects.
> 
> 
> Cavision 3x3 matte box -MB385PW
> 
> Cavision rod support system - RS15IIM
> 
> Sony SH-L35WBP LCD foldable hood
> 
> _____________________________
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> l Attachment 213393
> 
> Attachment 213394
> 
> Attachment 213395
> 
> Attachment 213396
> 
> Attachment 213397



Thanks, Michael for your posting this accessory to the TD10. I decided to go the simpler route here by permanently adding a 77mm threaded ring to the front of the TD10. I discovered that the ID of a Tiffen 1A filter with the glass removed slipped onto the rounded portion of the TD10 perfectly. So, now I just use the standard 77mm screw-on filters, + lens shade if desired. I showed this a couple thread pages back.


I am curious about the LCD screen shade from Sony. I have not seen this accessory. I use a low cost Hoodman but my only complaint about it is when I need to use it, I have to dig it out of my belt holster camera case and slip it on. The one you are using looks like it can attach to the camcorder permanently. How easy is it to put in place when needed?


----------



## Michael Worley

Don,


It clips on and can be easily removed or left on the LCD flipped over with screen facing out. The bottom clips release & slide for you to clip on the top of LCD.


I've been using this particular hood on my V1 in the field for more than 4 years without issue. You can find a full description on the Pro Sony website under the HDV section, HVR-V1U description.


_________________________

Michael


----------



## bravia3D

anything like that for the JVC?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bravia3D* /forum/post/20504077
> 
> 
> anything like that for the JVC?



Hoodman, check their website.


----------



## bravia3D

Thanx Don


----------



## Don Landis

M ichael Worley-


I just got back from shooting lots of stuff at a lake and poolside. I used the polarizer and found that in 3D this video was mostly off color, looking too cool. I think some contribution was from the fact that my Sony glasses have a filter that cools the video color and this would be double filtration. I wanted to ask you with your polarizer have you found a need to stack a warming filter to compensate for the polarizer cooling off the video? If so which warming filter have you found is best?


----------



## Michael Worley

Don, I just returned also from a shoot on the American river in Sacramento today. This was the first time that I've had the opportunity to shoot in bright sunlight with a reflective surface using the polarizer. One of the first issues I had was incorrect baseball cap & shirt the instructor wore that washed out immediately.


I completed the render of the 1st session reviewing only in anaglyph. It will take me the rest of this evening into the morning to complete all sessions and then burn to disc before I can give you a conclusive answer regarding the warming filter.


I used the Cavision polarizer and will be adding a Tiffen 3x3 haze 2A to add warmth when it arrives later this week.


_____________

Michael


----------



## Don Landis

I was able to add warmth in the Sony Projector in the advanced custom color settings that helped, but I shouldn't need to do that for stuff I shot. Only should be used to compensate for what the Projector does like the filters added to the active glasses.


Anyway, I was also disappointed in the white detail that was blown out. I shot some white ducks on a small lake and these were lacking detail in the whites. Except for the sky reflections on the lake surface, the comparison video shot without the polarizer actually looked better. I'm a bit concerned that my ability to improve color definition with a polarizer may be misguided. That's why I'm so happy that you are working on this too. One thing I noticed with my setup, is that when I rotated the filter very slow, I could never completely remove all the glare. Almost but not 100%. I was wondering is the fact that the polarizer filter is off center on both lenses so that when you rotate it, you are working with a different section of each part of the filter and then combining them with the stereo camera. I'm getting most confused trying to figure out what is going on with this. Maybe, the better solution is to avoid the circular polarizer and just work with haze filters, neutral density and warming. Your thoughts?


----------



## Michael Worley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20508268
> 
> 
> I was able to add warmth in the Sony Projector in the advanced custom color settings that helped, but I shouldn't need to do that for stuff I shot. Only should be used to compensate for what the Projector does like the filters added to the active glasses.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I was also disappointed in the white detail that was blown out. I shot some white ducks on a small lake and these were lacking detail in the whites. Except for the sky reflections on the lake surface, the comparison video shot without the polarizer actually looked better. I'm a bit concerned that my ability to improve color definition with a polarizer may be misguided. That's why I'm so happy that you are working on this too. One thing I noticed with my setup, is that when I rotated the filter very slow, I could never completely remove all the glare. Almost but not 100%. I was wondering is the fact that the polarizer filter is off center on both lenses so that when you rotate it, you are working with a different section of each part of the filter and then combining them with the stereo camera. I'm getting most confused trying to figure out what is going on with this. Maybe, the better solution is to avoid the circular polarizer and just work with haze filters, neutral density and warming. Your thoughts?



Don,


I'm working with the 3x3 square filters now that do not have the gradient that circular's provide.


In the next few days when the sun comes out again I'll run a test on some reflected surfaces and any white moving objects in the harbor using an 86mm circular polarizer outfitted for my V1's wide conversion lens.


I also use Brightness, color correction and Sharpness in Vegas in my outdoor workflow.


I started a BD 3D 25Mbps render & burn this morning and hopefully the river sequences will have completed when I return this afternoon. I can then give you a better feel for the TD10s color & resolution in a highly reflected outdoor setting using the 3x3 polarizing filter.

_________________

Michael


----------



## icerat4

Everything ive shot so far looks awesome very clear very nice. i am totally happy with this camcorder. my son graduation jet skis everything.


----------



## markr041

 http://www.esquire.com/features/the-...camcorder-2011 


He doesn't have a clue about editing with the video, but his views on 3D I think are right on.


----------



## Don Landis

Mark- Other than a couple technical screwups about the TD10 and how it works, I thought his comments were right on. Frank needs to read his comment about Panning with 3D







Plus longer shot times, shooting on axis, etc.


----------



## markr041

After my experience with the Bloggie 3D (amazing), and having mastered the rudiments of 3D editing in Vegas Pro (with help from people here) - I actually learned nothing additional today's Sony Webinar on 3D editing! - I have ordered the TD10.


I wish it had more manual controls, but Don is correct that only Sony offers a complete system - an editor that works with the video files and bluray players that recognize and play the 3D videos from the Bloggie and the TD10. Neither Panasonic nor JVC equipment/software help out.


----------



## Michael Worley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20508268
> 
> 
> I was able to add warmth in the Sony Projector in the advanced custom color settings that helped, but I shouldn't need to do that for stuff I shot. Only should be used to compensate for what the Projector does like the filters added to the active glasses.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I was also disappointed in the white detail that was blown out. I shot some white ducks on a small lake and these were lacking detail in the whites. Except for the sky reflections on the lake surface, the comparison video shot without the polarizer actually looked better. I'm a bit concerned that my ability to improve color definition with a polarizer may be misguided. That's why I'm so happy that you are working on this too. One thing I noticed with my setup, is that when I rotated the filter very slow, I could never completely remove all the glare. Almost but not 100%. I was wondering is the fact that the polarizer filter is off center on both lenses so that when you rotate it, you are working with a different section of each part of the filter and then combining them with the stereo camera. I'm getting most confused trying to figure out what is going on with this. Maybe, the better solution is to avoid the circular polarizer and just work with haze filters, neutral density and warming. Your thoughts?



Don,


We're very pleased with the color output from the BD 3D burn. Since this was a rehersal for us we purposely shot with the sun behind us, into the sun with shorelines on & off axis for reference on how the TD10 would handle reflection on the water, clothing colors, and reflective surfaces from closeup shots, medium wide to distance shots.


I feel the warming filter will bring out the sky and show a slight improvement of skin tones. I have shot with the circular polarizer and warming filter exclusively using my V1 for over three years and am very comfortable with the dual filter combination.


I have found in my experience on the water there are certain angles even with the sun behind you that a polarizing filter will not eliminate certain glare due to the opposing shoreline.


If you are interested I can burn a BD 3D at 25Mbps and send for setup and workflow comparision. My final output is referenced on an Oppo-93 BD 3D player integrated with a Sony Bravia HX909 display.


----------



## Don Landis

Michael- Which round warming filter did you use on your V1? And just to be clear on this. I understand you used it in combination with the circular polarizer. I haven't ordered any filters yet as I have plenty of time before my next serious trip for shooting on the water.


Mark- When you get your TD10, I would recommend you go into the menus and set the assignment of the manual control to adjust focus first. You'll be able to manually adjust the others in a toggle through the list ( less than the 2D list) that we covered earlier in the thread. I find in the field, just using auto for everything works and allows you more freedom to concentrate on getting the shot. But it seems the first thing to cause trouble are creative shots that require you to lock your focus, with setting the assignment to Focus, you have that option first on the list. Now, having said that, I do have to warn you that the actual manual adjustment is ( seems to me) to be rather cantankerous. It's a bit tricky to get used to. Then once you set it be careful not to touch the knob or it gets thrown off. Basically, auto is your friend on this camera, I'm learning.


----------



## Michael Worley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20511162
> 
> 
> Michael- Which round warming filter did you use on your V1? And just to be clear on this. I understand you used it in combination with the circular polarizer. I haven't ordered any filters yet as I have plenty of time before my next serious trip for shooting on the water.
> 
> 
> Mark- When you get your TD10, I would recommend you go into the menus and set the assignment of the manual control to adjust focus first. You'll be able to manually adjust the others in a toggle through the list ( less than the 2D list) that we covered earlier in the thread. I find in the field, just using auto for everything works and allows you more freedom to concentrate on getting the shot. But it seems the first thing to cause trouble are creative shots that require you to lock your focus, with setting the assignment to Focus, you have that option first on the list. Now, having said that, I do have to warn you that the actual manual adjustment is ( seems to me) to be rather cantankerous. It's a bit tricky to get used to. Then once you set it be careful not to touch the knob or it gets thrown off. Basically, auto is your friend on this camera, I'm learning.



Don - yes I use both the Tiffen 86C Professional circular polarizer and the Tiffen Professional 86C UV Protector together.

______________

Michael


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20510865
> 
> 
> After my experience with the Bloggie 3D (amazing), and having mastered the rudiments of 3D editing in Vegas Pro (with help from people here) - I actually learned nothing additional today's Sony Webinar on 3D editing! - I have ordered the TD10.
> 
> 
> I wish it had more manual controls, but Don is correct that only Sony offers a complete system - an editor that works with the video files and bluray players that recognize and play the 3D videos from the Bloggie and the TD10. Neither Panasonic nor JVC equipment/software help out.




Did I miss something? Once Vegas has been used to allow for burning a Blu-ray 3d disc, are you suggesting that only a Sony Blu-ray player can play it?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20511577
> 
> 
> Did I miss something? Once Vegas has been used to allow for burning a Blu-ray 3d disc, are you suggesting that only a Sony Blu-ray player can play it?



NorthTV- I think you need to get more sleep!


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20510136
> 
> 
> Mark- Other than a couple technical screwups about the TD10 and how it works, I thought his comments were right on. Frank needs to read his comment about Panning with 3D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus longer shot times, shooting on axis, etc.



I read his comments. Now he needs to come to my house and see what I'm doing and realize that his comments do not apply in all cases.


----------



## Don Landis

Saw _Drive Angry_ last night in 3D and this movie makes lots of use of fast pans and it works in 3D. I was not annoyed by the camera movement at all. The movie also used a fair amount of gratuitous smack you in the face 3D effects but did not over do it. Shrapnel from explosions made you want to duck out of the way at times. It was a pretty good action horror thriller movie. I had my doubts from the previews but both wife and I were thoroughly entertained. I also picked up some interesting tips on how the scenes were cut together for 3D.


----------



## Joseph Clark

That's what I love about you, Frank. Whereas Don and I are from the same boring video mold, you look at the mold, modify it, then break it apart for use as bear and squirrel feeders.







I don't know anyone else like you, and I think what you do is incredible.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20511577
> 
> 
> Did I miss something? Once Vegas has been used to allow for burning a Blu-ray 3d disc, are you suggesting that only a Sony Blu-ray player can play it?



Yeah, unless the 3D disc created in Vegas played in all manufacturers' 3D Blu-ray players, it would be virtually useless. We need as much adherence to standards as possible if 3D is to succeed. The problem is that standards are still being established, so it's a bit of a crap shoot right now.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Whereas Don and I are from the same boring video mold...



I won't speak for you, Joe, but my mold was shaped by TV producers who are more concerned about making money in the business than anything else. Consequently, I was taught to listen to my audience. If they like it they will pay for it.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/20512604
> 
> 
> That's what I love about you, Frank. Whereas Don and I are from the same boring video mold, you look at the mold, modify it, then break it apart for use as bear and squirrel feeders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know anyone else like you, and I think what you do is incredible.



Thanks Joe.









Just having fun in my retirement.

I doubt I could make a living at this 3D thing.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20513216
> 
> 
> Thanks Joe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just having fun in my retirement.
> 
> I doubt I could make a living at this 3D thing.



LOL! Same here.


But remember, Gutenberg was long dead before anyone figured out how to commercialize his invention of the printing press. Maybe someday you will be remembered by Skynet as the inventor of the 3D seeing robot, and some advanced version of your 3D seeing robot that resembles a prior Governor of California will be sent back in time to shut you down before you achieve your goal.


----------



## JonStatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20512352
> 
> 
> Saw _Drive Angry_ last night in 3D and this movie makes lots of use of fast pans and it works in 3D. I was not annoyed by the camera movement at all. The movie also used a fair amount of gratuitous smack you in the face 3D effects but did not over do it. Shrapnel from explosions made you want to duck out of the way at times. It was a pretty good action horror thriller movie. I had my doubts from the previews but both wife and I were thoroughly entertained. I also picked up some interesting tips on how the scenes were cut together for 3D.



I don't think there is anything wrong with fast 3D pans. However, for home TVs and projectors, some cope better than others at displaying and maintaining the 3D during a fast pan.


What IS a problem is the stability of the shooting, whether it be fast or slow pans, or movement into or out of a scene. As discussed on other threads, the use of a steadicam is almost essential otherwise it can make the viewer feel motion sickness. I am not saying you cannot shoot something with a steady hand, but the importance of steadiness with 3D shooting cannot be overstated.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20513216
> 
> 
> Thanks Joe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just having fun in my retirement.
> 
> I doubt I could make a living at this 3D thing.



I like tackling projects about things I enjoy, but I hate deadlines and commitments these days. Leave that to the younger guys with lots of energy. Creatively, aesthetically, I think I could still hang in there with many of them, but I have no desire to be a part of that rat race.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JonStatt* /forum/post/20513541
> 
> 
> I don't think there is anything wrong with fast 3D pans. However, for home TVs and projectors, some cope better than others at displaying and maintaining the 3D during a fast pan.
> 
> 
> What IS a problem is the stability of the shooting, whether it be fast or slow pans, or movement into or out of a scene. As discussed on other threads, the use of a steadicam is almost essential otherwise it can make the viewer feel motion sickness. I am not saying you cannot shoot something with a steady hand, but the importance of steadiness with 3D shooting cannot be overstated.



Yeah, when I get used to my new Blackbird stabilizer, I expect to be able to get some wonderful shots with my JVC. Doing some spring cleaning the other day, I found my old Steadicam JR. I looked it over and I might be able to kludge together a fix for it. Some of my students broke it when I loaned it to them for a project years ago, and I never got around to sending it to Tiffen for repair.


----------



## Don Landis

Just discovered a new feature in Vegas 10 that could obsolete my use of PMB.


It's called device explorer under the view menu. You plug in your USB camcorder or any USB device and it displays a complete menu of all the clips with a meta data display including thumbnail right in Vegas. You can then drag that clip to the timeline directly and it will simultaneously save that file to your project media as well as archive it to your hard drive. This is another huge timesaver. I tested it with a USB hard drive storage from my TD10 and the TD10 itself, my HDR SR12 and the Bloggie3D.


Another new feature I see is the ability to access my network connected flatbed scanner. I selected "Get Photo" and it automatically found my flatbed scanner and opened up a very nice scanner interface. My scanner is not even connected to my edit computer but it is connected via wifi to my network. You drag the image from that window right to the time line and stretch to fill.


----------



## bigbarney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20514287
> 
> 
> Just discovered a new feature in Vegas 10 that could obsolete my use of PMB.



Not really a new feature... it was in V8/V9 too.


----------



## Don Landis

Device Explorer is not in 8. I have it still on my machine, Get Photo is but I never noticed it before. Device Explorer is listed as a new feature in 10 by Sony.


----------



## bigbarney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20514956
> 
> 
> Device Explorer is not in 8. I have it still on my machine, Get Photo is but I never noticed it before. Device Explorer is listed as a new feature in 10 by Sony.



I'll have to check my version 8.... but quite matter of factly... it *IS* in 9.


Here's Johnny Roy on the vegas forum talking about it back in 2009:


> Quote:
> If you have Vegas Pro 9.0 then it's even easier using the new Device Explorer. Go to View | Device Explorer (Ctrl+Alt+7) you'll see your camera come up as a drive (at least my CX12 does) and then all of the clips are shown in the browser window with a preview and some info (clip name, date, and size). Just click on a clip to see it play in the trimmer. Select the ones you want to keep and choose Import Selected Clips. They will be copied to your hard drive and added to the media pool. It's as simple as that.


 http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/...ssageID=668110


----------



## Don Landis

Yeah, I went back to the "What's new in Vegas 10 and see it is stated "new improved Device Manager." I didn't ever install v9 but did buy it to maintain my upgrade status. That's why I never used it before v10.


----------



## xxxrimxxx

Greetings to all,


I have been browsing through this thread and I have found it very informative as far as the HDR-TD10 is concerned.


The massive amount of info about the new Sony camera here has come useful for me, Thank you for that.

I think the HDR-TD10 is no doubt, an awesome and promising piece of equipment.


But I do however have the nagging dilemma of having stereoscopic footage taken from the HDR-TD10 to play in stereoscopic on my laptop.


I have tried the Vegas 10D, 3dtv Stereoscopic player and even PowerDVD 10.

the best I have had it come out as, is anaglyphic footage, which isnt really what i was aiming for. I have tried a lot work arounds to make it work, but I have been unsuccessful to this day.


My question is, Is there a way where in I can view my 3D footage in full stereoscopic format using my Sony TDG-BR100/B 3D glasses, on my 3D laptop?


Im hoping that you guys can shed some light on my problem.

More power to you all!



This is the Equipment im using:


Sony HDR-TD10 3D Camera

Sony Vaio F-Series 3D Laptop

Sony TDG-BR100/B 3D glasses



cheers!


----------



## Michael Worley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *xxxrimxxx* /forum/post/20525145
> 
> 
> Greetings to all,
> 
> 
> I have been browsing through this thread and I have found it very informative as far as the HDR-TD10 is concerned.
> 
> 
> The massive amount of info about the new Sony camera here has come useful for me, Thank you for that.
> 
> I think the HDR-TD10 is no doubt, an awesome and promising piece of equipment.
> 
> 
> But I do however have the nagging dilemma of having stereoscopic footage taken from the HDR-TD10 to play in stereoscopic on my laptop.
> 
> 
> I have tried the Vegas 10D, 3dtv Stereoscopic player and even PowerDVD 10.
> 
> the best I have had it come out as, is anaglyphic footage, which isnt really what i was aiming for. I have tried a lot work arounds to make it work, but I have been unsuccessful to this day.
> 
> 
> My question is, Is there a way where in I can view my 3D footage in full stereoscopic format using my Sony TDG-BR100/B 3D glasses, on my 3D laptop?
> 
> 
> Im hoping that you guys can shed some light on my problem.
> 
> More power to you all!
> 
> 
> 
> This is the Equipment im using:
> 
> 
> Sony HDR-TD10 3D Camera
> 
> Sony Vaio F-Series 3D Laptop
> 
> Sony TDG-BR100/B 3D glasses
> 
> 
> 
> cheers!



New Member,


You will need a Blu-ray Disc burner to burn your 3D content from Vegas Pro 10d that will be recognized by the Sony active shutter glasses.


There are two versions of the Viao F 3D laptops, VPCF21AFX/B with a Blu-ray ROM player & the VPCF2190X with a custom-to-order Blu-ray Disc burner.

_____________

Michael


----------



## xxxrimxxx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Michael Worley* /forum/post/20526351
> 
> 
> New Member,
> 
> 
> You will need a Blu-ray Disc burner to burn your 3D content from Vegas Pro 10d that will be recognized by the Sony active shutter glasses.
> 
> 
> There are two versions of the Viao F 3D laptops, VPCF21AFX/B with a Blu-ray ROM player & the VPCF2190X with a custom-to-order Blu-ray Disc burner.
> 
> _____________
> 
> Michael




Michael, Thank you for the reply. I have the VPCF2190X.

I will give it a go.


cheers!


----------



## markr041

I had my first video outing with the TD10, which arrived on Friday.


My first impressions:


The good:


1. The OIS, no more jitters that can wreck 3D. Worked well.


2. The sound is very good (still surprises me). I set the mic level to 'low' as I want maximum dynamic range. Part of the scene today had a folk group playing with cello, trumpet, guitar, bass, mandolin and no mics - one of the few cases I have seen of unamplified music outside.


I have uploaded a raw clip in the raw clips thread of the trumpeter.


3. Auto focus. Seems fine, but given the small sensor and bright light, the dof is so large it doesn't need to focus well. See below.


3. The colors are good.


The bad:


1. Like every consumer camera and camcorder I have owned in recent years, (and as exhibited in most of the sunlit JVC clips) the camera badly overexposes in bright light. This is fixable with exposure compensation, even in 3D, but


2. The camera critically needs either zebra stripes or a histogram. One has to correct the overexposure by sight in the viewfinder alone. I can see the viewfinder pretty well even in bright light, but not really well enough to fix overexposure perfectly without meters.


3. Wide dof; it would be nice to have some ability to narrow the dof; even the trick of maxmum telephoto does not do it as much as on other cameras. Here is where the small sensor hurts (leaving aside low light), although it has the advantage of not requiring critical focusing ability for wide shots.


I will have a video posted later today, with nature scenes, the music group, costumes, kids, and, of course, balloons.


----------



## markr041

Here is the TD10 3D video. This is the grand opening of the Farmer's Market at Edgewood Park, New Haven


Music (no amplification!), balloons, Snoopy, a walking tomato, kids, nature walk, wind power.


Video shows off the telephoto, OIS, sound qualities.


On the sound: There is contrast between the group playing loud (first appearance) and playing soft (later). Also, when in the secluded part of the park, you just hear bird calls and gurgling water (no rushing sounds) - the quiet of the woods is apparent. And you get stereo with directionality (I do not use surround sound).


On the video: this was very bright, noonday harsh light. My main problem was taming overexposure and hot spots, and I was fiddling constantly with exposure. But I think the exposure result is good and the colors good. White balance was fine, although moving from open sun to shade (the musical group) sometimes resulted in bluish tint at the start. I could never get a background out of focus no matter what zoom extension I used.


Highlight: you see children watching the group play from the viewpoint of the band. All in 3D of course.







Watch in 1080p.


----------



## Don Landis

To achieve a rack focus zone you need to shoot zoomed in from a distance ( telephoto) and at low f stop. This is going to be difficult with the TD10 in 3D because there is no double f-stop control in 3D mode. You may be able to force it using neutral density filters. Work with exposure in manual too. That you can preset in 3D mode.


Editing tip for you- Shoot longer, full time on your music clips. Then use that as a sound bed for your visual tour. Use some video shots you did that has unimportant sound to break away from the musicians. You can return to your musicians, especially when one picks up as a solo for reference. Can make a nice music video. But the key is to shoot the entire number they performed like it was live for continuous sound bed.


----------



## markr041

Thanks Don. I had a 2.5 minute stationary clip of the group playing, and thought of using the sound from that track to underpin the nature scenes, but I decided the nature sounds were good. But you are right, for a video where the group playing is the point, cutaways from the group and back with the music continually playing would be effective.



On dof: I know that you get shallower dof with wider lens openings, but as you say, there is no independent control of iris in 3D and so all I had was telephoto. Thus, I am a little confused by this: "Work with exposure in manual too. That you can preset in 3D mode."

There is no control of iris; all you can do in 3D mode is exposure compensate - change the relative exposure, relative to what auto selects. I use "exposure" from the button dial as my preset and was constantly using the dial to avoid overexposure. But you cannot use that to affect iris (dof), since we cannot control either shutter or iris. Maybe I misunderstood.

But in any case, exposure is indeed my manual preset (since (auto) focus in good light is a nonissue but exposure is a big issue).


----------



## markr041

This is the 2D version of the video, specifically the left lens view, with stereo soundtrack.







Also downloadable.


----------



## Don Landis

Actually, all these are interactive, meaning that if you have an aperture set for auto iris, you can indirectly control that by making the exposure under which will try to compensate by making the auto aperture open to maximum. Normally, with my big camera I would use shutter speed as well but the TD10 also restricts this to non adjust in 3D mode. By setting the shutter speed higher you can control the "DOF" too, indirectly. In bright light, there are only two options with the TD10 you can use to force the iris wide open in auto and that is manual Exposure and adding neutral density filters. Well, I have my TD10 modified with a lens threaded ring for adding filters. Of course these are just suggestions on what you can try. Depending on the shooting scene, it may not be enough to do what you want. It's the main reason why "real" photographers use so many different lenses and cameras as opposed to one has to do everything. You and I already are using a Bloggie and the TD10. There will be times when you will say, for this shot, the Bloggie will do a better job.


----------



## markr041

"In bright light, there are only _two_ options with the TD10 you can use to force the iris wide open in auto and that is manual Exposure and adding neutral density filters." italics added by me


Don, you keep saying that the TD10 has "manual exposure" in 3D mode. It does not - the exposure setting is just exposure *compensation*. There is no exposure priority mode. You can't choose the iris. If you open the iris using exposure compensation you just overexpose, ND or not. Maybe that is what you said, but that is not two options. If you open up using exposure compensation (+) and add an ND filter, you will still be overexposed, but at a larger iris. Exposure compensation adds nothing to the ability to select iris and also have the correct exposure. Two tools, different aims.


With no manual shutter in 3D mode either, there is only _one_ option to open up the iris in 3D on the TD10 - to use neutral density filters. You gave us some useful tips as to how to use ND filters with the TD10.


It would be nice to have more manual options on one camera. But I agree the Bloggie and the TD10 give us more options than most for 3D.


----------



## JonStatt

I am noticing a tendency for the Sony to over-expose in bright light, as others have mentioned. The JVC does this too. But when this happens, the JVC seems to maintain a good level of contrast and detail in the non-overexposed parts of the scene. The Sony seems to become washed out and the detail starts to disappear.


I find it puzzling that basic automatic exposure can be so wrong on these camcorders. This of course is then worsened by not allowing manual over-rides in 3D, also for no obvious good reason.


----------



## markr041

I also do not understand the overexposure tendency, which is also true among all of Sony P&S cameras. But you can override with the exposure compensation dial in 3D.


----------



## Don Landis

Quote:

Originally Posted by *markr041* 
"In bright light, there are only _two_ options with the TD10 you can use to force the iris wide open in auto and that is manual Exposure and adding neutral density filters." italics added by me


Don, you keep saying that the TD10 has "manual exposure" in 3D mode. It does not - the exposure setting is just exposure *compensation*. There is no exposure priority mode. You can't choose the iris. If you open the iris using exposure compensation you just overexpose, ND or not. Maybe that is what you said, but that is not two options. If you open up using exposure compensation (+) and add an ND filter, you will still be overexposed, but at a larger iris. Exposure compensation adds nothing to the ability to select iris and also have the correct exposure. Two tools, different aims.


With no manual shutter in 3D mode either, there is only _one_ option to open up the iris in 3D on the TD10 - to use neutral density filters. You gave us some useful tips as to how to use ND filters with the TD10.


It would be nice to have more manual options on one camera. But I agree the Bloggie and the TD10 give us more options than most for 3D.
In 3D mode:

Actually, it does have manual exposure, manual focus, and manual 3D adjust. Those are the only three of the 7 adjustment options offered under the manual knob control. This means you get a a distance in meters at the bottom left of the screen and you can rotate the knob to make manual changes. If you push the button you can over ride it back to auto. Push and hold the button you can activate the Manual exposure too and when this is in manual you will get a -+ bar at the bottom of the screen. Admittedly, this knob and button with menu setting is quite cryptic and you should spend some time learning how it all works. I instruction manual is quite inadequate.


All except 3D adjust is available under 2D setting.



Here's how I did the DOF control:

Camera in full telephoto and in 3D mode, set the screen to 2D to allow for easier view of the settings and it's affect on the image. The recording will remain in 3D.

By setting the exposure to darken the image it is suspected that the iris ( in auto) will automatically open up to it's widest f-stop ( smallest DOF ) before the exposure setting will darken the overall picture in a effort to keep the image perfectly exposed. It is in this position where you will get your optimum ( minimum range) DOF _for producing the rack focus_ you are looking for. Once you have the exposure set, you can then switch the dial to manual focus and dial the focus between two distant objects ( racking the focus ).


I tested this process and it does work but it is not easy as the controls for manual focus on the TD10 are very sensitive compared to a broadcast lens which is smooth and linear by being completely mechanical.


I only mentioned neutral density filters as another way to force the iris open in bright light. Not that you must use both.


I only mentioned shutter speed as another way I use my broadcast cameras to lower exposure with high shutter speed so that in bright light I can adjust the iris full open and maintain proper image exposure.


In any camera, full telephoto, and fully open iris is the way to achieve the tightest range of focus which is what I thought you were looking for.


If you overcompensate the exposure ( very easy to do on the TD10) manual setting you will either overexpose or underexpose the image. You need to adjust the exposure to the edge of minimum to achieve the minimum DOF and not underexpose.


My point is that while this can be done it is not as easy as doing it with large lenses designed for full manual control. But this is how many professional camera procedures suffer in the consumer point and shoot camera designs. As I've said before, Sony makes rigs designed to work in these requirements. They just aren't as low cost as the point and shoot camcorders.


----------



## Don Landis

Jon and Mark- It seems pretty obvious both of you need to spend more time on this with the TD10 in hand. The way auto exposure is set is overall average picture brightness. The selection of manual exposure can properly calibrate the camcorder for a range of light in your shooting, then when you change that range, you'll need to switch it to auto again or readjust the manual control for new scene brightness levels. The TD10 has the capability to achieve good image quality and not blow out but the real problem is the controls are all electronic, suffer lag, difficult to adjust and extremely awkward when shooting on the run. If you are setting up a studio shot and have plenty of time to set lights and get that perfect image, the controls are there if you know what they do. But frankly, just as I never do, doing all this in the field in a public setting just isn't going to happen. Trust the auto and get the shot before it goes away!


----------



## markr041

Don, I know how to get to all of the settings, and i know what i want to get narrow dof. I just do not understand what changing exposure is really doing, not in general but on this camera. First, you are completely right and I was wrong (I just tested what is going on under different light): the "Exposure" setting really sets the exposure. I have never encountered a camera that allowed you only to set exposure (no shutter control and this is not aperture priority either). This means that if the light changes, your exposure will be wrong (with exposure compensation, it is still auto but shifted (called AE shift by Sony)). No AE shift in auto mode.


Now, that I know exposure really changes the exposure, I really don't understand what actually is being changed - either the iris or the shutter could be changing when we move plus or minus. We just see darkening or lightening. If we are not controlling the iris, we do not have control over depth of field (it could be only changing the shutter). Or should we assume that shutter is not being changed? Also, there is one and only one correct exposure setting, so we cannot keep the correct exposure and also alter the dof by changing the exposure. I just don't understand this.


I know perfectly well how to control dof when I have control of both iris and shutter - to narrow dof open iris, increase shutter speed. But we cannot do that in 3D mode.


Now, I have noticed the following: If I move the manual exposure all the way to the end of plus, say, of course I get massive overexposure. Then I go back to auto and get the correct exposure. Then I go back to manual and the cursor is still all the way at the plus end, but the exposure is now correct, not overexposed even though the cursor is all the way to the + side.


Maybe this is what you are thinking is controlling the iris, but I do not get it.


----------



## JonStatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20534254
> 
> 
> Trust the auto and get the shot before it goes away!



I would like to but it isn't working out that way. In brighter situations, I am ending up with poor contrast, over bright, and loss of detail. Yet I know the Sony is perfectly capable...but not in auto! Bring out the JVC TD1, and although it will blow out highlights, the contrast is maintained, the colour is maintained and so is the detail. Perhaps the JVC is capable of a greater dynamic range.


----------



## markr041

Yes, my experience is the same: you need to close down exposure manually in very bright light. When you do the colors are magnificent.


----------



## iWATCH3D

Has anybody experienced the USB transfer freezing at preparing stage ? Tried on two PC's both don't show nothing in the relevant drive. Camcorder is only half full. Used to work normally once before, tried to transfer recently and had no luck.

Any help would be much appreciated, as I don't want to go through the whole replacement process, not to mention possibility of loosing data.


----------



## Don Landis

Mark- In 3D mode- I believe the iris remains in auto and will track the exposure in manual as you adjust it with the range of f-stops. Say your lighting is such that with iris it is f8 and the exposure is set for good +- adjustment. But for minimum DOF you want the f-stop to be 1.4 or minimum. It appears to me that as you increase manual exposure the f-stop will begin to open maintaining picture quality. When you reach minimum f-stop the iris can no longer continue to open automatically as it has reached it's limit ( where you want to be), but now if you continue to adjust the exposure to the - side more the picture will begin to darken. STOP! and back off to the + side with exposure just a bit so that your exposure and f-stop is perfect, or as good as it's going to get. In the case of the TD10, don't worry about shutter speed in 3D because it is locked to 1/60 second.

In Full auto, the exposure will allow the camcorder to achieve maximum DOF by setting the exposure to allow the iris to be smallest. (The opposite of what you are trying to achieve.) It is assumed that point and shoot tactics are to get _everything_ in focus. So full auto is designed to work this way.


AE shift. ( set in 2D only ) The way I use this is to initially calibrate the camera for all modes! There is no such thing as auto and manual AE shift! It is On or off and when on: It is just a shift of calibration of _where_ the f-stop occurs at a given exposure for all modes. Consequently, once to do your AE shift in 2D mode it works that way for 3D as well. If you feel your camcorder is over exposing all the time in full auto, then adjust the AE shift once and forget it. You'll notice the scale for AE shift is -1 to +1. This is the incremental f-stop change (mechanical) you would notice, but is done by a center point setting of exposure (electronic) to achieve that calibration change. What I don't get is why Sony added that adjustment on the knob since it is not something you should be changing on every shoot. I see AE shift as a camera calibration, like flange back adjustment. On all my cameras, consumer and broadcast, I set the AE shift once and don't mess with it. In my case I set it with a waveform monitor for peak whites at 95 IRE.


JVC has greater dynamic range??? Don't know but there is a modern color system now called XV color that permits greater number of colors but not sure how the brightness range can change. Lowering Black level to 0 from 7.5 IRE can work for increasing the dynamic range if the monitor can deal with it. Time to consult Joe Kane.










Jon- Noticed your comment above where you observed the Sony tendency to over expose.







Come to think of it, I have too and consequently find I adjust AE shift to lower exposure adjusting to -.5 EV on the TD10 and similar on my other camcorders. Don't own any JVC since the 80's and that was an analog camera anyway.


----------



## markr041

Don,


"It appears to me that as you increase manual exposure the f-stop will begin to open maintaining picture quality."


Thanks for continuing this discussion as we learn about the TD10. The absence of a thorough manual leaves us on our own!


I do not think you are correct about how exposure works in 3D mode. In fact, I thought that is how it works. But, from auto into manual, using exposure lightens or darkens from where you left auto. Period. If auto gives the correct exposure ("picture quality"), going + or - makes exposure wrong. Thus I do not see how you can use exposure to choose dof. And if the manual exposure setting is the only way to correct overexposure in 3D (always leaning towards - from where auto is set), then for sure you cannot have any independent control of dof. There is no AE in 3D, so exposure is the only way to correct overexposure.


Most consumer camcorders have an internal ND filter. This is used to avoid small apertures and diffraction distortions. Thus, altering the virtual iris does not affect dof very much anyway becasue the iris is not actually moving.


I hope you are correct about the shutter being fixed at 1/60th in 3D mode, as that is appropriate for 60i video. This is contrary, however, to the behavior of _all_ Sony consumer cameras in video mode (including the NEX5) and Sony camcorders in auto mode, where the shutter goes to very high-speed values in bright light and you cannot, of course, stop that. If the shutter is fixed, then changing exposure surely affects the light coming to the lens and thus you cannot have correct exposure and your choice of dof by altering the iris, shutter fixed.


If the shutter is fixed, then we are effectively in shutter priority mode, and in that mode you have no ability to select aperture for dof without losing the correct exposure. Exposure priority mode is the way to achieve choice of dof, and that is not what we have in 3D.


I think the dof discussion for 3D is academic anyway. The main way of shrinking dof is to get close and zoom in (high telephoto). But to maintain good 3D, as you know the minimum distance at maximum telephoto for the 3D window is 25 feet! At 25 feet even at maximum telephoto, given the small sensor, dof will still be relatively wide even if you could somehow open up the iris and still have the correct exposure.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> But, from auto into manual, using exposure lightens or darkens from where you left auto. Period. If auto gives the correct exposure ("picture quality"), going + or - makes exposure wrong.



First part I agree with But going + or minus does not make it wrong, it just makes it closer to what YOU consider right! ( recall I like my peak white to be shifted down to 95 IRE ) exposure and iris always work in tandem when one or the other is in auto. In this case exposure in manual then auto will attempt to track the manual setting until it reaches the maximum or minimum opening. If both could be set to manual, ( 2D ) then there would be no tracking of the iris.


I still say you are not seeing the big picture on how these controls work. They work just like they should and the results are predictable. As I said, the only strange thing I see is the location of A.E. being on the knob. In my opinion it could have been left to the buried menus. But that doesn't affect what it does or how it works. AE is just a calibration tool, not a way to adjust manually for shooting.

On my broadcast cameras, you know I have two of these settings. One is located on the camera and the second is located on the lens. But, you would always leave one in default and only calibrate with the other. If you have 2 or more lenses then you set the camera for zero and calibrate each lens. If you use just one lens then you would calibrate the camera and leave the lens alone. It is usually more difficult to calibrate the AE on a lens than on the camera. Back Flange calibration is always done on the lens as it sets the back lens element the proper distance from the first optical element in the camera. Fixed lenses do not require this calibration. If you ever went through this calibration process on a broadcast camera you could see the f-stop actually track the AE on the servo. All this is hidden from view on consumer camcorders.


As for the manual not being very good, I agree but I wouldn't expect the manual on a camera to explain basic photography. Sony is not changing the definitions of what these controls do, but they also don't explain why some are disabled in 3D. I understand why you set AE in 2D only and then it is "locked" in 3D. That is simple physics! But I can only guess why you don't get manual shutter speeds in 3D and you do in 2D. My guess is cost. The circuitry to track the shutter speeds on two cameras had to be sacrificed, considering consumers probably would rarely use that.


The NEX cams allow for the extra shutter speed, 24P. That's it for 3D. I believe there are two versions of the pro cam just as in the consumer that permit the 50i and 25P in 3D but both are available in 2D. ( Going from memory on that one)


Very important for you to understand: Your assumption that AE shift doesn't exist in 3D is wrong. Sorry, but the fact is it is "locked" to what ever you set it at in 2D. If you feel you are not getting the correct exposure the way the camera was factory calibrated. over ride that with AE in 2D and then, leave it on. switch to 3D and the new calibration will hold in locked position. If you connected a WFM to the TD10 composite output and put the camera on a gray scale test chart you would see that the new AE calibration holds.


I believe the minimum distance in maximum telephoto for focus is closer than 25ft. But I can't say I ever measured it. I would have said 10 ft.







This assumes smallest aperture, brightest lighting.


I don't own that many consumer camcorders but I can tell you that all I have said holds true for both my HDR SR12 and the TD10. Just for the TD10 some things are unnecessary or disabled. The AE works exactly the same way the exposure works the same way and iris the same way. Neither camcorder offers ND filters. The last small camcorder I have with internal ND filter (2 of them) is the PD100 but this is considered a professional series, similar to what the NEXcam series is sold under. The AE exposure auto iris etc all work the same in this much older vintage camcorder. I'd say the way all these controls work is consistent over the last decade!


DOF is a viable creative tool, not just for academics. But it is far more difficult to operate in these consumer camcorders than the pro rigs. The last small camera I used that could be easily used for racking a focus was the HVR Z1U. In fact there was a "focus puller" that could be attached just for that purpose. You could set the camera up then measure your distances between points of focus. start shooting and pull a lever arm as you racked the focus ring through the shot. It wasn't a cheap accessory.


----------



## markr041

Don,


I am learning all the time about this camera.


"Very important for you to understand: Your assumption that AE shift doesn't exist in 3D is wrong. Sorry, but the fact is it is "locked" to what ever you set it at in 2D. If you feel you are not getting the correct exposure the way the camera was factory calibrated. over ride that with AE in 2D and then, leave it on. switch to 3D and the new calibration will hold in locked position."


Don't say sorry; this is very good news! Setting AE to - seems necesary given the tendency to overexposure. Then I can use manual exposure for other purposes than dealing with overexposure. However, I do not find overexposure problems in shade as much as in bright light, so I may have to adjust AE a lot.


Can you lock WB in 2D mode and carry that over in 3D too? I can test that I guess. Tested, and no.




On internal ND - you are not understanding. You have vast experience with pro cameras. I have vast experience with consumer cameras. In most consumer cameras, which is what the TD10 is I think and what I was referring to, there is an internal ND filter. It is NOT independently selectable like on pro cams. It is basically invisible to the photographer. But it is there and used instead of iris movement. I am betting that one is being used in the TD10 too. It is, for example, used in the Panasonic TM900, arguably the best prosumer camcorder; it is used in all Sony P&S cameras. Not a big deal, but relevant to the dof issue.


The manual is deficient. An expert photographer and a novice needs to know whether in 3D the shutter is locked at 1/60th or not in iauto mode. That information is not provided. If it were true, then manual exposure setting is like shutter priority mode. If shutter is not fixed, then we need to know what changing exposure is doing with iris and shutter. Maybe you assume in some cases what is going on based on your experience with other pro cams, and I am coming from consumer cams and assuming that the camera is like those.


Anyway, please keep helping; I am not trying to debate or to show who is wrong or right, just trying to understand this odd (is it pro-like or consumer-like?) very interesting camera.


Btw, the Bloggie does not seem to overexpose as much as the TD10 (which is good given we could not do anything about it).


Two small points for clarity: 1. By minimum distance I was not talking about focus minimum but the minimum for effective 3D. That, according to the manual, is 25 feet for maximum telephoto. I have found the 3D guidelines accurate. Of course, one can focus at a smaller distance. I am only interested in 3D for this camera; it's minimum focus distance in 2D is nor relevant to me. 2. By "academic" I did not mean for academics, I meant it was irrelevant. That is, given 1 (minmimum 3D distance of 25 feet in maximum telephoto mode), using the trick of zooming to get shallow dof was not relevant because one had to also move way back from the subject for 3D, thus incerasing dof.


----------



## markr041

I played one of Don's raw m2ts 3D TD10 clips (from Disneyland - Bazaar and Sunshine Tree Terrace?) using DvMP Pro 5, where the camera moved around and the light therefore was variable. This software plays the video file and reports in real time the f-stop, shutter and WB setting.


I am sorry to report that in this outdoor clip, as the light changed, the f-stop remained at f4.0 and the shutter ranged from 1/90th of a second to 1/250th (!) of a second.


I don't know whether the clip was shot in auto or manual exposure mode, but this is exactly the same behavior exhibited by all of the P&S Sony consumer cameras I have used in video mode: mostly shutter variation instead of iris variation is used to control exposure in auto mode.


Given that the shutter is not fixed, it is thus unclear what manual exposure control in 3D mode is actually changing - shutter or iris?


The TD10 is very much a consumer cam. I still like it a lot though!


----------



## Don Landis

Mark-- That is interesting. I'm pretty sure everything I shot that day was in full auto. If what you said is true than Sony engineer who is the director of the design group lied to me.







He said in 3D, shutter speed is fixed to 60th of a second. Maybe it was a language barrier. His English was better than my Japanese. LOL! The US rep at the demo at CES didn't know much at all.


Anyway- we are getting into academics but need to find the truth out about this.


I tried the software you suggested but it won't load the files. Says the codec I have for AVCHD / h264 is incompatible. You must be using something different.




> Quote:
> Given that the shutter is not fixed, it is thus unclear what manual exposure control in 3D mode is actually changing - shutter or iris?



I'd guess neither. It changes the video gain in the electronics.


----------



## markr041

Don,


The AVC/H.264 codec the software DVMP Pro is using on my computer (Windows 7) is 'Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder.' Windows 7 has a lot more built-in codecs than previous systems. The point is this is plain vanilla, just the codec that came with the machine. You can under options select the codec for the software to use; it may just have defaulted to something it can't use.


I have attached a screenshot showing the software in action with your clip (shutter at 1/180th).


----------



## JonStatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20536074
> 
> 
> 
> AE shift. ( set in 2D only )



So you are saying, that if you set AE Shift in 2D mode, it sticks in 3D mode, even though the menu item is greyed out in 3D? Well done for finding that, but to my mind that's a bug.



> Quote:
> Jon- Noticed your comment above where you observed the Sony tendency to over expose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come to think of it, I have too and consequently find I adjust AE shift to lower exposure adjusting to -.5 EV on the TD10 and similar on my other camcorders. Don't own any JVC since the 80's and that was an analog camera anyway.




Dynamic range is the range from the brightest pixel to the darkest pixel captured at the same time. In a sense, this is like contrast ratio. Some sensors are quite limited. If you imagine that true black is 0 and true white is 100. Then consider that the Sony's dynamic range is 50. This would mean at any one time there can only a range such as 0-50, 20-70, 40-90 depending on the exposure of the scene at the time. I was theorising that the JVC might have a wider dynamic range than the Sony. This is fixed to the sensor, and no calibration, exposure compensation or anything else will change it.


----------



## markr041

"So you are saying, that if you set AE Shift in 2D mode, it sticks in 3D mode, even though the menu item is greyed out in 3D? Well done for finding that, but to my mind that's a bug."


You may call it a a "bug", but I for one am very glad we can do this. Now note it is greyed out in 3D mode because you cannot alter it in that mode. In any case, it does seem like an odd feature. Let's hope they do not correct this bug in a firmware upgrade (that does other valuable things) so that we cannot have the 2D ev adjustment stick in 3D mode!


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JonStatt* /forum/post/20541541
> 
> 
> So you are saying, that if you set AE Shift in 2D mode, it sticks in 3D mode, even though the menu item is greyed out in 3D? Well done for finding that, but to my mind that's a bug.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dynamic range is the range from the brightest pixel to the darkest pixel captured at the same time. In a sense, this is like contrast ratio. Some sensors are quite limited. If you imagine that true black is 0 and true white is 100. Then consider that the Sony's dynamic range is 50. This would mean at any one time there can only a range such as 0-50, 20-70, 40-90 depending on the exposure of the scene at the time. I was theorising that the JVC might have a wider dynamic range than the Sony. This is fixed to the sensor, and no calibration, exposure compensation or anything else will change it.



This would explain everything I've been struggling to articulate. It should be easy enough to verify through testing.


----------



## Don Landis

Jon- How does your theory explain the difference in a camera that works in 4:2:2 vs, 4:2:0?


----------



## JonStatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20543098
> 
> 
> Jon- How does your theory explain the difference in a camera that works in 4:2:2 vs, 4:2:0?



You are focusing very much on chrominance (as the luminance is the same between 4:2:2 and 4:2:0). While the colour does fade out on the Sony as it over-exposes, there are fundamental issues with luminance here. These sorts of things are encoding concerns. The same thing with the expanded colour gamut.


The fundamental issue of being able to "capture" a dark black with the sensor at the same time as the scene contains many bright elements, is at the sensor level before it even gets to the encoder. Even really bad encoders should not lose the luminance dynamic range during the encoding process.


It seems that the brighter the overall scene, the more the Sony has difficulty to capture the dark greys/blacks also present in that same scene. That being said, the differences are far less on indoor shots, which indicates that the Sony is over-exposing so severely that it is crushing all the lighter shades together. Evidence of this can be seen by the fact that detail gets lost too.


Have a look here at a comparison:-
http://www.videoaktiv.de/Praxis+Tech...10/Page-6.html 


See the way the Sony loses detail due the extreme over-exposure compared to the JVC.


----------



## rajibo

Hey Everybody,


I'm looking to get a tripod for the TD10. Can somebody tell me the differences between the VCT-60AV and VCT-80AV tripods? The only differences I can tell from the Sony website are the height and the price.


Any other recommendations would be helpful too, but I like the idea of having the controls on the tripod.


Thanks!


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## Don Landis

Minimum height should be considered for packing in a suitcase for travel. The 80 is about 25" while the 60 is 19". 58" height is a bit short for lots of work, IMO. Sony makes a remote control that can be used with any tripod as it clamps on anywhere. I don't like crank elevators. Too slow to change but the advantage is you can get elevator camera moves if you work it very slow to make it smooth.


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## Don Landis




> Quote:
> You are focusing very much on chrominance...



Actually, I'm not! I have never focused on any of this _nonsense_. I'm not the one out doing all sorts of tests comparing the three camcorders. From the beginning, I focused on the synergism of the production package and the support structure each option has. I don't expect to grab a perfect picture pointing into the sun or get a full perfect picture shooting into a glare. FYI, if I really have to have the perfect image with far superior quality, I'll breakout my big cameras with 2/3" 3 chip sensors and broadcast glass. I have the tools but in the case of these shooting applications, I'm interested in a ultra compact _synergistic_ package that gets the shot, records the sound in 5.1, has a 5.1 with center channel wireless remote mic, a clamp on smart shotgun mic, has maximum telephoto and wide angle, I can clearly see the screen, I can buy and attach accessories that work, and I can edit and make a Blu-Ray disk of my documentary.


----------



## JonStatt

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
Actually, I'm not! I have never focused on any of this _nonsense_. I'm not the one out doing all sorts of tests comparing the three camcorders. From the beginning, I focused on the synergism of the production package and the support structure each option has. I don't expect to grab a perfect picture pointing into the sun or get a full perfect picture shooting into a glare. FYI, if I really have to have the perfect image with far superior quality, I'll breakout my big cameras with 2/3" 3 chip sensors and broadcast glass. I have the tools but in the case of these shooting applications, I'm interested in a ultra compact _synergistic_ package that gets the shot, records the sound in 5.1, has a 5.1 with center channel wireless remote mic, a clamp on smart shotgun mic, has maximum telephoto and wide angle, I can clearly see the screen, I can buy and attach accessories that work, and I can edit and make a Blu-Ray disk of my documentary.
If JVC had sorted out their editing capability from day one by linking up with any well known editing software house, then I think the balance would be different. That being said the JVC cannot do 5.1, which is one of your requirements. Are you using the Sony bluetooth mic for the wireless centre channel? Is the auto-gain on the mics not a problem for you?


I don't think its nonsense at all to compare similarly priced products and evaluate them from a number of perspectives., including one of the most fundamental aspects, picture quality....especially as the restrictions and forced auto mode mean that dependency on this is even higher. Most are buying this camera as a keen hobbyist or semi-pro, and therefore will not have access to more expensive equipment. So I appreciate that any comparison like this may be nonsense for you, but certainly not nonsense for others.


The Sony is over-exposing without shooting into the Sun or glare. It's just not optimised as well as it should be in terms of its in-built algorithms.


----------



## Don Landis

Quote:

If JVC had sorted out their editing capability from day one by linking up with any well known editing software house, then I think the balance would be different.
Problem is JVC has _never_ had a full production solution for any of it's line of cameras except with hardware broadcast and then the stuff was pure garbage and is why the pros avoid it like the plague.

Quote:

That being said the JVC cannot do 5.1, which is one of your requirements. Are you using the Sony bluetooth mic for the wireless centre channel?
Yes, I also have the intelligent shotgun mic which tracks the lens zoom control to shape the cardiod pattern. It's pickup is amazing, rivaling my sennheiser with blimp and fur.

Quote:

Is the auto-gain on the mics not a problem for you?
No, not since the HDR-SR12. The PD100, even though was a Professional DVCAM minicam it was pure garbage in the sound dept with it's auto gain.
Quote:

I don't think its nonsense at all to compare similarly priced products and evaluate them from a number of perspectives.,...
Neither do I! I do think it is nonsense to become obsessed with minor picture differences over all other factors, especially to the point where hours of testing using dubious methods are published, and then readers in search of commentary to support their imagined theories develop extrapolations, that are equally questionable, especially to those who own the equipment.


Please understand, I have absolutely no problem with any of the images I shot, which now totals over 25 hours of 3D video with the TD10. If there was a problem that made the clip unusable, it was my fault in not doing the perfect job. But that's why I shoot shoot shoot. I make sure I have plenty of material to work with. My goal with all this is to tell the story, not to produce a clip of art.

Quote:

The Sony is over-exposing without shooting into the Sun or glare. It's just not optimised as well as it should be in terms of its in-built algorithms.
And this is a prime example of what I refer to as nonsense. But if you feel it is a statement in fact- prove it! Go pull the algorithms and show us all that the math that is flawed or not optimized as you stated.


Here's the thing, from day one here I have never said the JVC TD1 shoots a bad image, nor have I said it shoots a superior image to the Sony. I said it looks like, by examples the JVC has a red push. That is not surprising because that is how their Broadcast cameras shoot. This can be recalibrated on the service bench, inside on the chroma board, but that is not how JVC sets them up. Likewise, Sony has a cooler look to it's color. Heck even the professional and broadcast monitors have that red push. Thing is, most people like that warm look. But, it is a coloration to the image. If I want my TD10 to have a warmer look, I will add a warming filter and plan to have one in my kit! One of my biggest disappointments with the TD10 ( and the TD1 was it's lack of a threaded filter ring. The TD10 was easily modified to add one. So far, as a somewhat experienced TD10 owner, the addition of filters is the only thing about the camcorder I needed. All this nonsense of over obsession with overexposure, either is imagined or improper user skills, IMHO!


----------



## JonStatt

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
Yes, I also have the intelligent shotgun mic which tracks the lens zoom control to shape the cardiod pattern. It's pickup is amazing, rivaling my sennheiser with blimp and fur.
Which mic model number is that Don...it sounds interesting.

Quote:

All this nonsense of over obsession with overexposure, either is imagined or improper user skills, IMHO!








Okay..well thats an opinion, but in the link I forwarded previously, it showed all 3 cameras set up in the same position and you can see the Sony is over exposing much more than the others. You can argue that its poorly set-up in some way, but I imagine it was just left on auto. Assuming this to be the case, the Sony made the poorest choice of exposure.


----------



## markr041

I would add:


1. I think all three cameras overexpose in bright light, and my experience (I own the TM900 and the TD10), is the Sony TD10 does this more.


2. It is correctable, easily with either exposure change or AE shift (the bug!). And I thought Don was using -.7 AE shift, so he is assuming overexposure too.


3. The Archiv comparison: All of the videos are 1/2-frame sbs. The sbs files are native files from the TM900 and the JVC - they are provided by the camera. The TD10 does not produce a 1/2 frame sbs out of the camera. Thus, unlike the other two files, the TD10 original full resolution MVC file had to have been processed, re-rendered to lower resolution, in software. There is one generation loss; the quality of the TD10 video shown thus reflects the quality of the conversion.


4. My gosh! The JVC right side part in the sbs comparison video is blurry compared to the left (compare the frog on the right and the left). This is a real problem.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Okay..well thats an opinion, but in the link I forwarded previously, it showed all 3 cameras set up in the same position and you can see the Sony is over exposing much more than the others. You can argue that its poorly set-up in some way, but I imagine it was just left on auto. Assuming this to be the case, the Sony made the poorest choice of exposure.



The test is flawed. Shot at different fields of view. I suspect the AE was never calibrated for any of the cams because it is my guess this dude doesn't know what that is or why it is important. All you can say for this is when this guy uses a camcorder he relies on out of the box factory to control his photography. From that experiment, I would select either the JVC or the Sony but not the Panasonic.


MY bottom line for all these experiments boils down to this: if you want red push built into your shots with high contrast saturated color, deep blacks, get a JVC. If you want a natural looking image, more neutral with plenty of latitude for operator control, plus an infrastructure support synergism to produce content, then get the Sony. If you just want adapter 3D on a 2D camcorder the Panasonic is a nice alternative.


Shotgun / Zoom mic with digital control is the Sony ECM HGZ1 I recommend using it in audio Normal mode for voice and low for loud PA system music. The onboard Sony Mic seems to work best in Low mode. This mic plugs into all Sony Hot accessory shoe cameras. When doing critical audio, I recommend using full ear cup professional headphones. Mine work well on the TD10.


----------



## JonStatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20546653
> 
> 
> Shot at different fields of view. I suspect the AE was never calibrated for any of the cams because it is my guess this dude doesn't know what that is or why it is important.



Indeed, although he does zoom in later in the movie but the exposure doesn't seem to change. As for exposure compensation, I still think its a bit of luck rather than intention that the HD10 maintains the compensation setting when you click from 2D to 3D, but good that it does for sure.


Thanks for the mic recommendation. It is not an expensive piece either!


----------



## Don Landis

Both internal and external mics will zoom with the lens, but the main advantage of the top mounted mic is it has better isolation from hand noise than the internal mic. I originally bought it for the SR12 but the TD10 is much better at noise cancellation / isolation than the SR12. I hardly hear my hands on the TD10 but the SR12 was quite noticeable.


----------



## JonStatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20546977
> 
> 
> Both internal and external mics will zoom with the lens, but the main advantage of the top mounted mic is it has better isolation from hand noise than the internal mic. I originally bought it for the SR12 but the TD10 is much better at noise cancellation / isolation than the SR12. I hardly hear my hands on the TD10 but the SR12 was quite noticeable.



That mic you mentioned is mono. Does it just function as the centre channel, with the remaining mics on the camcorder doing surround...or do you just get the single mono track?


----------



## markr041

Don,


I am convinced that filters are useful for the TD10, and noted your customization. I am a little unclear on what you need.


For the filter holder: Any old 77mm double-threaded uv, taking out the glass? Or any regular 77mm uv, taking out the glass (no double-thread needed)? Your made-up mount seems a lot thicker than a regular filter in the picture. This is the ad hoc stand-in for a real 1:1 adaptor, which is not available, that I am talking about.


----------



## Don Landis

Jon - Hold on I'm doing some testing of this shotgun mic. It works differently on the TD10 for 3D than it does on my SR12. I tested the BT mic back when I first got the TD10 and it replaces your center channel with the remote mono mic. The rest of the 5 channels comes from the Camcorder internal mic. This zoom / shotgun is much more complicated. I'll give you a complete rundown later today. I'm also testing the audio conflicts with my filters attached this afternoon.


Whoops! forgot to send the above so I'll just continue as I'm done with the audio tests.


First let me thank you for asking me about this mic. I had assumed it worked on the TD10 the way it does on my SR12. Not quite.


On the TD10 you have to power down to get the mic to switch into 2 channel stereo mode. If you don't the plugin doesn't do anything. On my SR12 I could juststop recording and it would switch from 5.1 to 2.0.


The mic has two modes of operation by a switch on the back. Called Zoom and Gun.


I tested Zoom first and its result is a bit complicated, almost goofy.

In full wide lens the plugin mic is almost off and the internal mic below the lens is in full volume, but stereo channels even though the menu is set up to do 5.1. The recordings are switched to 2.0 by the act of plugging in the top mic. The sound is in Left right stereo too with similar separation as we get just using the internal mic in 2.0 mode. Now here is where it gets interesting- I begin to zoom in and as I do the sound sourcing moves from the internal stereo mic to the plugin mic. About half way into full telephoto, I get stereo but I believe it is a blend of both mics. Therefore the program channels offer stereo left and right differences. I do believe the plugin mic offers only mono as a mix to the stereo channels that are bedded by the internal which is a true stereo mic. As I continue to zoom in with the lens, the internal mic goes to near shutoff and all the sound is sourced from the plugin mic. The noise cancellation from surroundings is excellent and as expected now full sound stage being very narrow has no real left right separation.

Now lets switch to the Gun mode. I did not need to power down the TD10 to make this switch. In gun mode the camera can shut off the internal mic for the full range of telephoto. It is basically mono sound recorded to both left and right stereo sound tracks.

Examples of use- Use zoom mode when shooting a stage performance from a distance where you want a bit of ambiance. To shoot a quick interview or man on the street from 6-8 ft. switch to Gun mode. In gun mode at full wide angle the side cancellation is excellent. In Gun mode speaking to the on camera person gets good recording from 6"behind the camera.


Now for the results of my filter test- A bit disappointing in this respect- While I took careful measures not to interfere with the mic grill below the lens with my modification, the sound reflective properties of the glass in front of the mic's center channel severely reduce it's sensitivity and increase front L and R There is also an increase in volume from center rear channel. ( both L and R surround )

The good news is all is normal with the filter removed. And, I can readjust the audio balance in post if necessary.


I have an idea on how to fix this using the BT accessory to recapture the front center channel accuracy by plugging in the BT wireless mic, and making a shotgun attachment for it at the camera. This may be more cumbersome than what it is worth. Another way would be to saw off the bottom part of the round filter so there is no sound reflector over the mic grill below the lens. I like that idea better. Anyone here ever saw a filter glass? Frank, your the new king or mods and retrofits. Think I can saw a filter in half with a dremel tool?


----------



## Don Landis

Mark the filter "holder" as you called it was made from a basic cheap as you can find standard 77mm filter where I did remove the 1A glass. This standard filter has a male thread ( not used but it's ID is just right to fit on the round flange on the camera. The front of the ring has a female 77mm thread that you will mount your first filter of choice.


This is a semi permanent modification and still a work in progress. Another way to mount filters is to use a mattebox attached with rods or rails. The company is CAVISION. Another AVS member here has already done this but it is a more costly way to get the same results.


----------



## markr041

Thanks, Don. I am worried from your recent post that your solution blocks the built-in mics.


----------



## Don Landis

Yes, it definitely affects the directionality of the sound source. Doesn't really block the mic. I'm hoping to make some custom glass filters that do not block anything.


----------



## JonStatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20547827
> 
> 
> 
> I tested Zoom first and its result is a bit complicated, almost goofy.
> 
> In full wide lens the plugin mic is almost off and the internal mic below the lens is in full volume, but stereo channels even though the menu is set up to do 5.1. The recordings are switched to 2.0 by the act of plugging in the top mic. The sound is in Left right stereo too with similar separation as we get just using the internal mic in 2.0 mode. Now here is where it gets interesting- I begin to zoom in and as I do the sound sourcing moves from the internal stereo mic to the plugin mic. About half way into full telephoto, I get stereo but I believe it is a blend of both mics. Therefore the program channels offer stereo left and right differences. I do believe the plugin mic offers only mono as a mix to the stereo channels that are bedded by the internal which is a true stereo mic. As I continue to zoom in with the lens, the internal mic goes to near shutoff and all the sound is sourced from the plugin mic. The noise cancellation from surroundings is excellent and as expected now full sound stage being very narrow has no real left right separation.



Thanks Don for such a complete write-up!


I researched it a little more myself and read the documentation. It seems that it can't actually change its pick-up pattern. So its quite clever. It uses the wider stereo pick-up of the camera mics at wide angle, and gradually shifts to the very focussed gun mic as you zoom in. At full telefoto, gun and zoom are effectively the same. I am curious how you found it on the SR12. I think to have a mic that changes it cardoid pattern as you zoom would require a motorised housing over the microphone itself otherwise a real variable pattern mic would be a LOT more expensive.


----------



## markr041

"I think to have a mic that changes it cardoid pattern as you zoom would require a motorised housing over the microphone itself otherwise a real variable pattern mic would be a LOT more expensive."


No, M-S stereo mics (one cardiod plus a bi-directional mic in one housing) can mix from mono to stereo of different widths by mixing the two side mics and the center mic electronically (matrixing). Coordinating this with the zoom of the lens would require no additional motor, but sophisticated programming.


Sony sells an MS stereo mic for attachment to the active shoe that enables choice of width, but I do not think it is linked to zoom so you have to manually choose it.


----------



## Don Landis

I found this Sony Hot shoe surround mic that may work better with lens filters attached. I understand it is only 4 channel directional and one would need to do some remixing in Vegas to extract 5.1 from the 4 channels.


SONY ECM-HQP1 Surround Sound Microphone This is the model number. Ordered up a used one I found to test.

https://servicesales.sel.sony.com/ec...oryName=Camera 


What I am discovering is that working with 5.1 audio is a lot more work but well worth the effort. It greatly adds to the reliving a memory goal of my work. I really don't want to record anything again unless it is with 5.1 or at least mix the final production to 5.1.


----------



## icerat4

Hey what do you guys think of this .My daughter shot this .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BBurNK1WWM


----------



## bigbarney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20558383
> 
> 
> 
> What I am discovering is that working with 5.1 audio is a lot more work but well worth the effort. It greatly adds to the reliving a memory goal of my work. I really don't want to record anything again unless it is with 5.1 or at least mix the final production to 5.1.



I like working with the HW2 center channel mic myself. (I know you have one). But the blueTooth remote center channel GREATLY enhances the surround effect as the center channel can be located a fair distance away from the cam while the on-board surround mic continues to operate. It makes for an extremely wide surround sound effect.


----------



## MediaWarrior309

I've been following this thread for a few months. I have been on the fence, but finally placed the order for this camera yesterday. It should be here by next week, according to my local retailer.


I am a "semi-professional" videographer. Meaning, I make my living on it (doing weddings, music videos, and running a few small PG-13 rated fetish websites, etc.... all my projects are in HD), but I have never been formally trained in Videography or "film". It's all been self taught, and baptism by fire experiences over the last 10 yrs.


I'm excited about jumping into this new 3D technology with this camera. But I'm also a little confused with all the different tech jargon and things I'm not familiar with and was wondering if y'all could help me out (it would probably benefit many others reading this who have similar questions, but prefer to lurk instead of jumping in and asking...). Jumping into HD was easy for me back in 2006, but this 3D stuff seems over my head a little bit. I came up with a few questions here. Anyone who wishes to speak up and offer their knowledge and experience, it would be greatly appreciated. - Thank you!


Here's the somewhat complex (at least to me) questions I came up with:

1) - Is there a site (other than this thread) that summarizes and explains all the various file formats of 3D (both "source files" from cameras, as well as output file types and qualities and what their respective purposes would be) and goes over a typical workflow? And perhaps something that defines acronyms, explains why some files are better than others for certain purposes, why some manufacturers do things differently, etc... For examples - MVC vs. 3D MPO? What is "side-by-side"? What are the differences in all the 3D delivery formats (side/side, red/cyan anaglyphic, etc..., and pros and cons of each). What is this PMB thing I've seen people mention? What does it do and why?


2) - which 3D formats do I want to render to in order to sell video downloads to an online audience? Blu Ray burning is not important to me, but selling 1-5 minute video clips on a website IS important. Can wmv format do 3D? MPG? mp4? If so, what are typical bit rates, quality settings, etc... in Vegas Pro 10, or the new consumer Vegas 11?


3) - I was under the assumption that computer monitors would have to be rated "3D" in order to display 3D content - meaning, using active shutter glasses that receive a signal from the monitor to sync up. But can ANY computer monitor actually display 3D if it is displayed in red/cyan, which would allow my customers to keep existing computer monitors and instead just buy cheap red/cyan glasses for under $5? I take it that there is a big drop off in quality when going from active shutter 3D down to red/cyan 3D? (because if all monitors can do this, then we would've seen 3D for many years before now, right?)


4) - I currently run/use Vegas Pro 9. I was wondering if I should wait until Pro 11 is out to spend the big bucks, or should I buck up for Pro 10 right now, even though 11 may be due in the next 2-4 months? If I get the new PLATINUM 11 Production Suite (the consumer version, only $129) to hold me over with 3D until Pro 11 is available, does anyone know if it's 3D support (file formats, etc...) and output options, are the same as Pro 10? Or is it missing a bunch of potentially important things? That seems like it might be a great product to hold me over until Pro 11 is available, but if it is not sufficient, I would need to spend the $599 to get the full Pro 10, then spend it again in just a few short months to get Pro 11.


Thanks in advance to anyone who can help resolve these questions, to help make my adventure into 3D a little less intimidating!


----------



## Don Landis

You can start by reading the threads from the stickies at the top in the 3D Tech section here.


As for publishing your 3D videos for others to see, I find You Tube to be the best as it as lots of options for viewers with and without 3D monitors to see your work in 3D. It will have the widest available audience.


Here's my latest 3D upload:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-YuQ5Tx25w 



I'll answer a few but many of your questions will become clearer once you do a bit of homework in reading the threads suggested. Just remember, 3D is new to all of us, so experimenting and learning as we go is what is happening right now. When you jumped into HD it was in it's 7th year. For your camcorder you ordered, it hasn't been out yet for 7 weeks so welcome to the early adopters club!


PMB- Sony's Picture Motion Browser. You will get a disk to load this software onto your computer to offload your video and convert filenames and play on your computer. PMB doesn't really edit but it just makes moving video to your computer easier than windows file explorer.


Any TV or computer monitor can display 3D using anaglyph ( colored glasses) The Red/cyan type are the most popular. Get a pair and keep them by your monitor. You can order from Amazon and they cost very little. I paid $1.49 for mine.


Vegas Pro 9 doesn't do 3D but the upgrade will cost you, well, you know the drill. Hmmm. by your post, maybe you don't... Vegas upgrades ( updates by letter ) are free within a version number but when you jump to a new version from a prior year it costs as little as $249 with some promos once in awhile for cheaper. Generally, upgrade each year for less than half the new price. If you will be editing 3D you will want to upgrade your 9 to 10d. 10d is a bit buggy and has been out for a couple weeks. Just out in the last couple days is Vegas Movie Studio Ver 11. This will permit many of the 3D editing features of Vegas Pro 10d. It might be a cheap way for you to get your feet wet in editing your video clips while you wait to make the upgrade later in the year to Vegas Pro 11. Just be sure to view the Sony webinars at sonycreativesoftware.com on the 3D features in Vegas Pro ( most will apply in Movie Studio too ). As for what you will be missing, it all depends on what you need to use. YOYO on that one.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20569165
> 
> 
> Hey what do you guys think of this .My daughter shot this .
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BBurNK1WWM






anyone get a chance to look at this and tell me what ya think


----------



## Don Landis

I think your daughter should get her own HDR TD10 Then you buy a Bloggie 3D and mount it on that helicopter and fly it over events to capture it for hire.


Seriously, if I had that helicopter, I'd mount my Bloggie3D to it.


----------



## markr041

"Seriously, if I had that helicopter, I'd mount my Bloggie3D to it."


Like this:


----------



## icerat4

My bigger heli would easily fit a bloggie under it.







its a trex 500 3 times the size of that heli in the vid.


----------



## MediaWarrior309

Don,


Thank you for your excellent feedback. I really appreciate you taking the time to address some of my questions. I've really been enjoying your posts throughout this thread.


I think when I started following this thread way back in March or so, there wasn't much other tech talk available on other threads about 3D formats and what not. I see that now there is (I've just had this thread bookmarked and keep coming back to it, and haven't even thought about exploring the rest of the site!), so thank you for pointing out that the rest of my answers may in fact already be found elsehwere on this site.


YouTube will indeed be the best place to promote my work, but I will need to come up with the right choice for a delivery format for my subscription based websites, which cannot use YouTube as a means of distribution. So, that is what my biggest challenge will be... finding something that has the highest liklihood of compatibility, while maintaining ease of use and convenience, but with the security and access management for paying members.


I went ahead and ordered the new Vegas 11 Platinum Suite... and I will wait to do my Vegas Pro 9 to 11 upgrade until Pro 11 comes out. I figure the consumer 11 will be fine for a few months, and another reason I went this route, instead of upgrading to 10, is that the 11 Platinum Suite also includes SoundForge and Architect, 2 programs I haven't used yet, but would like to start getting into. I use Cakewalk Sonar 7 for my home studio recording now, and its interface just flat out sucks compared to Vegas, so if SoundForge and Acid are so very similar to Vegas interface (which I understand they are), I should be able to work much more efficiently in SoundForge than in Cakewalk. If I find that I need Pro 10 for certain 3D features that Consumer 11 doesn't have, then I can always upgrade to Pro 10d, and I'm only out the $129 for Consumer 11 (and even less, if I end up getting value out of using Sound Forge and Architect). The main reason I went from Consumer 6 to Pro 9 last year, was for batch processing (batch rendering) for my various websites. So for 3D, I'll just have to render my clips one at a time for a while, like I used to, then when I upgrade from Pro9 to pro 11, I'll be good to go.


Thanks again for your answers. They say my TD-10 will be here next Monday. Can't wait!





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20571000
> 
> 
> You can start by reading the threads from the stickies at the top in the 3D Tech section here.
> 
> 
> As for publishing your 3D videos for others to see, I find You Tube to be the best as it as lots of options for viewers with and without 3D monitors to see your work in 3D. It will have the widest available audience.
> 
> 
> Here's my latest 3D upload:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll answer a few but many of your questions will become clearer once you do a bit of homework in reading the threads suggested. Just remember, 3D is new to all of us, so experimenting and learning as we go is what is happening right now. When you jumped into HD it was in it's 7th year. For your camcorder you ordered, it hasn't been out yet for 7 weeks so welcome to the early adopters club!
> 
> 
> PMB- Sony's Picture Motion Browser. You will get a disk to load this software onto your computer to offload your video and convert filenames and play on your computer. PMB doesn't really edit but it just makes moving video to your computer easier than windows file explorer.
> 
> 
> Any TV or computer monitor can display 3D using anaglyph ( colored glasses) The Red/cyan type are the most popular. Get a pair and keep them by your monitor. You can order from Amazon and they cost very little. I paid $1.49 for mine.
> 
> 
> Vegas Pro 9 doesn't do 3D but the upgrade will cost you, well, you know the drill. Hmmm. by your post, maybe you don't... Vegas upgrades ( updates by letter ) are free within a version number but when you jump to a new version from a prior year it costs as little as $249 with some promos once in awhile for cheaper. Generally, upgrade each year for less than half the new price. If you will be editing 3D you will want to upgrade your 9 to 10d. 10d is a bit buggy and has been out for a couple weeks. Just out in the last couple days is Vegas Movie Studio Ver 11. This will permit many of the 3D editing features of Vegas Pro 10d. It might be a cheap way for you to get your feet wet in editing your video clips while you wait to make the upgrade later in the year to Vegas Pro 11. Just be sure to view the Sony webinars at sonycreativesoftware.com on the 3D features in Vegas Pro ( most will apply in Movie Studio too ). As for what you will be missing, it all depends on what you need to use. YOYO on that one.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> YouTube will indeed be the best place to promote my work, but I will need to come up with the right choice for a delivery format for my subscription based websites, which cannot use YouTube as a means of distribution. So, that is what my biggest challenge will be... finding something that has the highest liklihood of compatibility, while maintaining ease of use and convenience, but with the security and access management for paying members.



Glad you are enjoying the AVS Forum. You really should explore more of it. Mostly it is about Home theater and these few threads about video editing and cameras are actually unusual for this site, but we have a good bunch here dedicated to helping each other even though we all seem to have our individual special goals with this. Thank you for your kind comments!


Interesting you are doing what I recently retired from. One part of my business was doing what you are doing although I approached it from a slightly different angle. Since I was doing advertising videos, (Infomercials) I was less concerned with subscribers to view than clients who had me host their shows and the views were open to all. Like Network Broadcast TV. That was back before You Tube and my only concern then was Mark Cuban who invented Broadcast.com but he sold the concept to Yahoo, made a fortune, and Yahoo never did anything with it. So, I had a good run of it for a number of years until YouTube became common venue for all web video. Hard to compete with "FREE" even though they had a commercial division few honored it and YT didn't police it. I had a peak time of slightly over 100 shows for clients hosted and then in 2 years it went down to 12 with most moving to YT. The following year, for other reasons I retired from the business and don't regret my little place in it when it happened. I really do empathize with your goals and problems as I've been there done that and enjoyed the ride.


----------



## cinebiz

I have been using my Sony HDR-TD10 3D Camera for about a month now, & love it! The 3D image quality is amazing. I keep reading incorrect comments & concerns in various websites which I would like to address from hands on experience.


First of all, yes you can play back your full HD 3D video on your 3DTV and also on your 3D DLP projector ( if your projector is 3D ready & you have an optoma or viewsonic signal adaptor). The file format used in 3d recording with the Sony HDR-TD10 3D Camera is the same used in 3D Bluray discs. If you can play 3D bluray, you can play back from this camera.


Also, you CAN edit the 3d video & burn 3d blurays with sony vegas pro 10 (with the latest free update downloaded). The Sony HDR-TD10 3D Camera

also has a side X side half frame output option. You can use this format with ANY quality video editing software and burn S X S dvds which will work on 3d tvs that support S X S, the format used by sky tv & many other cable systems.


And last, some are concerned about the distance between the two lenses being too close together to capture good 3D, & having fixed distance lenses which cannot be adjusted for distance. I too had this concern, but made the purchase anyway. I was delighted to find that not only does it take great 3D ( as good or better than my dual camera hd rig ), but the inter-ocular distance IS adjustable via a control knob on the front of the camera.


I hope this clears up some mis-conceptions floating around about this camera.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Sorry, but some of your information is incorrect. Both the Sony TD10 and the JVC TD1 use "frame packing for interlace" (JVC's term, but they are similar formats). These are not the same as the formats used for 3D Blu-ray discs. Vegas 10d can convert the video into a 3D Blu-ray format and burn it to 3D Blu-ray disc, but this is not the same thing as you are suggesting.


----------



## Prema999

Just wanted to let everyone know that I found a 1TB USB 3.0 2.5" HDD that works perfectly out of the box with the HDR-TD10. It's the Adata CH11:

adata.com.tw/index.php?action=product_feature&cid=2&piid=125


----------



## icerat4

Any sony blu ray burners in the works yet Don.


----------



## markr041

For some reason manufacturers pushing 3D cameras use as their demos a kid or woman blowing bubbles.


On a video outing in China and Hong Kong with my TD10, I could not believe the first thing I encountered was - a kid blowing bubbles.


Here is a preview frame grab. The 3D video from this trip will be posted later (and there will be more than a kid blowing bubbles), but I might upload just the kid clip:


----------



## jasm

Why does it say the files are save on the hdr td10 as mvc format when they are mts format.

I can edit the files with Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11 but cant figure out how to save them and get them back on the camera.

I have saved other 3d mts files I downloaded and put them on the camera using the software BMP


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jasm* /forum/post/20626294
> 
> 
> Why does it say the files are save on the hdr td10 as mvc format when they are mts format.
> 
> I can edit the files with Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11 but cant figure out how to save them and get them back on the camera.
> 
> I have saved other 3d mts files I downloaded and put them on the camera using the software BMP



Confusing, isn't it?










MVC is not a file extension. It is a type of package and system used to bundle 3D video and audio in one compressed file. It basically consists of an AVC / h.264 video clip plus a delta file that is used to calculate the difference in image for the accompanying stereo video file plus the audio in one package. The file extension used for Sony TD10 is mts. The MVC codec for Sony 3D is used to calculate the stereo video clip. Without proper decoding, all you will see is the 2D left eye video in AVC. Not all MVC codecs are the same. You have to use the right one for your camcorder.


In your render as section you should see two templates listed for MVC. One will be the 1080 and the other the 720. Pick the 1080i one to render for porting back to the camcorder. Then connect your camcorder to the USB port and open PMB ( not BMP) and transfer the file back- Caveat Emptor- I have not tried this but this should be the way to do it.


----------



## tasos d

hi from cyprus

i have HDR-TD10 3D for 2 weeks.i like to know how can i make anaglyph red/cyan REAL 3D .is anybody know how i can get left and R video.pls help me


----------



## JohnSchultz

The TD10 is a nice 3D camera- editing it currently a bit of work.


----------



## JohnSchultz

I tested Vegas 10d and PPro CS5 with MVC to AVI. The latter is much faster, but no direct 3D controls.


----------



## JohnSchultz

Playing the footage back directly on an HDTV looks excellent.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Quote:

Originally Posted by *JohnSchultz* 
I tested Vegas 10d and PPro CS5 with MVC to AVI. The latter is much faster, but no direct 3D controls.
Did you use Premiere with Cineform Neo? That's the only way you're going to get 3D functionality in PP CS5. Without it, you're just editing 2D. If I monitor in left eye only, editing 3D with Premiere is pretty smooth, close to the 2D experience. But it tends to get a lot flakier when I monitor in 3D. Much of that, I think, is my system, which I suspect may be screwed up from experimenting with so many different codecs over the last few months.


----------



## JohnSchultz

*E3 2011 - Stereo 3D Highlights*


Shot on the TD10, edited with Vegas 10d:






In order to burn a 3D BD, I had to render out the interlaced 1920x1080i footage as Sony YUV (uncompressed or Cineform, etc., would also work), for both left and right eyes, load each into AE CS5, render as 24p (Premiere would also work), then create a new 3D project in Vegas and render and burn the BD (you can create a new preset and burn at 25Mbps, max). Motion is smooth and judder free and looks decent when played back on an HDTV (Samsung D8000 series with MotionPlus set to Standard).


I was able to use DVD+RW discs to test which worked on a Samsung BD-D5500 BluRay player. Also tested DVD+R DL and BD-R and BD-RE (all worked in properly playing and automatically displaying 3D as [email protected]).


Would be cool to learn about any work-around/trick to use [email protected] 3D footage for BD with menus (didn't see a direct way to (properly) use the 3D files with DVD Architect or Encore- Sony seems to want the user to upgrade to BluPrint (very expensive).


Vegas 10d is slow on my 12 core Quadro 5000 box and rendering the 60i to 24p in one shot to burn a full HD 3D BD resulted in significant rendering errors (hence the round tripping described above). Both PPro & AE do a decent job of converting 60i to 24p. 5.1 audio from the Sony TD10 is currently broken in Vegas 10d (click & pops)- can work around by using the Restoration/Noise reduction plugin in Vegas (Sony is aware of the issue). Vegas was able to properly render [email protected] at 25Mbps, but it didn't look as good as the [email protected] (which looked smoother- perhaps due to the HDTV's motion interpolator).


Although it takes ~10x the disk space, splitting with MVC to AVI and using Neo / Neo3D will run much faster, especially in PPPro CS5.x.


----------



## JohnSchultz

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* 
Did you use Premiere with Cineform Neo? That's the only way you're going to get 3D functionality in PP CS5. Without it, you're just editing 2D. If I monitor in left eye only, editing 3D with Premiere is pretty smooth, close to the 2D experience. But it tends to get a lot flakier when I monitor in 3D. Much of that, I think, is my system, which I suspect may be screwed up from experimenting with so many different codecs over the last few months.
I held off on testing Neo/Neo3D as I don't like to transcode unless I have no choice (have a fast computer & GPU). I also try to keep workflows limited to using stable software; however Vegas 10d has its own issues (in addition to being very slow compared to PPro). With MVC to AVI and PPro I edited in 3D as side by side and monitored on a 3D HDTV (had to scale and translate clips manually- for complex project could create subclips for the pairs after scaling+translating the uncut footage).


Someone mentioned cutting in 2D (left eye), then rendering out, renaming media for the right eye, reloading and rendering again. The two files can then be loaded back into Premiere and set up as side by side for Youtube or HDTVs, or loaded into Vegas to burn a full HD 3D BD (their H.264/AVCHD/MVC codec is very slow compared to PPro). No easy way to adjust stereo separation (for this method in Premiere), though (as a last resort I could write a plugin).


----------



## Joseph Clark

Since I have the JVC camcorder, I have to use MVCtoAVI (great utility) to split the 3D files. I set MVCtoAVI to use the Cineform HD Encoder 2 (high quality). I mux the left/right files for use in either Premiere or Vegas. You can adjust stereo separation in FirstLight as you edit in your NLE. Changes are reflected immediately in the Vegas or Premiere timeline. Although far from perfect, the process is fairly stable in both NLEs (with several caveats).


Cineform intermediate 3D files can be output from Premiere for burning in Vegas. I don't do very much of that for two reasons. One, I'm learning Vegas and it's counter productive not to learn as much as I can. Two, if you have to make changes to a project you've edited in Premiere, it has to be re-rendered to a new intermediate 3D file before it can be imported back into Vegas for burning to 3D Blu-ray. If I use the the FirstLight-muxed files directly in Vegas, it invariably involves less rendering time. I made an exception for my 3D titles, which I edited in Premiere and will use in Vegas. Vegas is buggy with 3D titles. No such problem in Premiere.


----------



## Don Landis

John and Joe- Might be better to make edit discussions of Vegas 10d and PP CS5 etc in the editor thread either the beginning one or the regular one. This thread is mostly for the Sony HDR-TD10 Camcorder discussion. I've observed some people here don't follow all the threads and might miss something you offer if posted to the wrong thread. Personally, however, I read everything here about 3D content creation.


----------



## Michael Worley

I've comprised a simple, unscientific comparison of the HDR-TD10 Cavision matte box with 3x3 filters. The stream & mountain/sky test footage was shot using the TD10 3D mode, manual focus, manual 3D Depth Adjustment with Exposure set to Auto. The MVC files were edited and transcoded in Vegas Pro 10d with no FX filtering applied.


Matte Box & Glass Filter Setup

Cavision 3x3 MB385PW Wide Angle Shade Matte Box

Cavision 15mm RS-15IIMQ rod support

Cavision 3x3 Linear polarizing filter

Cavision 3x3 Graduated ND 0.6 filter

Tiffen 3x3 UV Haze-2A Warming filter
Streamside Filter Comparisons

Focus: manual

3D Depth Adjust: manual

Exposure: auto

Location Altitutude: 2300'
Mountain Top / Sky Filter Comparisons

Focus: manual

3D Depth Adjust: manual

Exposure: auto

Location Altitutude: 2726'
TD10 Filter Comparision Test I 
TD10 Filter Comparision Test II 
TD10 3D Footage 

Focus: manual

3D Depth Adjust: manual

Exposure: auto

Filtering: polarizing & ND 0.6
TD10 / HVR-V1U 2D Multi-camera Footage, Sequences 3 - 5 

TD10

Focus: manual

Exposure: auto

White balance: auto

Filtering: polarizing & ND 0.6
V1U

Focus: manual

Exposure: auto

White balance: auto

Filtering: polarizing, UV & ND 0.3
_____________________________

Michael Worley


----------



## Don Landis

Michael- Thanks for your effort to demonstrate the different filters. I like the 2A Haze the best and may add that one to my collection. I have the 1A now.


----------



## icerat4

this is some fireworks i blew off this past monday 4th of july





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVsRHvcC8gk


----------



## Maxchance

Has anyone with an Apple set-up attempted to archive multiple clips on an external HD.


I am shooting in advance of a "someday to be released" converter for FCP and want to archive footage on an external hard drive for future editing. I guess this question applies to both Apple and PC archiving as I am not aware of a different process.


The footage transfers fine to the HD.


My question is two part:


1: What happens to the existing files and clips when additional clips are transferred to the HD? Are the clips automatically named differently than the existing files. In other words what prevents overwriting of existing files on the HD when new clips are added. Is a new main folder containing all the elements created?


2: My HD shows the following files from a single download:


Folder AVCHD - BDMV - CLIPINF - INDEX.BDM - MOVIEOBJ.BDM - PLAYLIST -

STREAM (There are files within these files). CPI, MPL and MTS.


I am assuming these are the total files or did something not transfer?


I'm also curious as to how *any* software finds the individual elements to construct the final clip. I am assuming the software accesses the main folder and finds the corresponding ID numbers of all three files.


Thanks in advance.


W.


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## MarkB




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> Originally Posted by *icerat4* /forum/post/20354180
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I love that, icerat you are funny!


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## Don Landis

I like to record good audio and often this just requires the right microphone. While the internal mic on the TD10 is good, there are times when it picks up too much wind noise or rubbing sound as I try to operate the zoom rocker.


Sometimes mounting on a tripod is best but this really works well when you have a wired remote control. The one shown will power the camcorder on, start stop record and zoom control Plus a photo snapshot button. It has little LED lights to let you know if the record is in standby or recording. The cable comes from Sony with a 4 wire LANC. This makes splicing in a couple of RJ-11 phone plugs and a double female coupler so any length extension can be inserted.


The hot shoe top mounted microphones are shock mounted and and with this set I can record in a variety of formats. Some, like the shotgun mic records same sound to both Left and right channels but in zoom mode will mix with the internal mic for good isolation between stereo and center channel boost.


The external 5.1 is a godsend to use because it gives good surround sound audio, better than the built in mic, is shock mounted, can be wind noise isolated with the fur and it corrects the interference to the surround pattern caused by attached lens filters and hood.


If doing remote interviews with on camera interviewer or standup, the BT wireless mic is great. It can integrate with 5.1 camcorder mic, single channel. Has a earphone jack to monitor the audio from remote volume adjust and remote mic battery level indicator. The remote BT mic transmitter comes with internal mic and has a rather large cylinder transmitter that looks ugly when worn. I removed the internal mic and hot wired a Sony Professional Broadcast lavelier to the transmitter allowing the transmitter to be stored away out of site. This transmitter also has a jack to plug in the earphone for IFB channel communications.


The light is pretty slick item. It's not really bright but just adds enough light to pop some color into an otherwise dim image. It uses battery power off the camcorder and has a switch to operate it manually or in auto mode when you begin to shoot.


Of course, extra batteries, I carry three 70's and one 100. I would suggest avoiding the 100. It does burn a long time but takes forever to recharge. Several 70's are much more efficient, IMO. I like to have one of the little chargers for each battery so I can quickly recharge in an evening in the hotel room when I travel.


Hoodman- Get the HD450 as it is the right one to fit the larger screen size of the TD10.


My tripod is a light weight Manfrotto 190MF4 Carbon fiber 4 stage. The pan tilt head is a 701 RC2. It is light enough to strap to your hip at the belt. Has excellent range 20" to 57" and fits inside my small overnight roller bag. The head is not as good as it could be but the system is very strong with no twistback. It's a bit pricey, however. I've had it for a number of years.


I have a low cost monopod too. It's a cheapie Canon Monopod 500. Works good enough and has a tild lock at the top ( for Bloggie 3D mounting. )


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## TomWheeler

Not infrequently when I turn on my HDR-TD10, I get the message that Auto Lens Convergence needs to be run. I thought that once you ran this and it was successful, you did not need to run this virtually every time you start up the camera. Are any of the rest of you seeing this? How often should Auto Lens Convergence need to be run?


I find this not only a nuisance, but often I am indoors when I start up the camera and it is difficult to get sufficient light to run Auto Lens Convergence which on my TD10 takes a lot of light to "qualify" for running Auto Lens Convergence.


Tom


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## markr041

I have taken many hours of video with the TD10 over the course of a month. I have only been prompted twice for calibration: once when I first turned on the camera out of the box and one other time (I was outdoors and it was the beginning of a new videoshoot). I do not know why I got the prompt that second time, and since then I have not had any new prompts with another few hours of shooting under different conditions


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## markr041

As it says, I purchased a used version of this discontinued mic from eBay ($29.99). Don's description makes this mic almost seem a necessity for good surround-sound - protection from wind (with fur) and isolated more from the camera (indeed, I do not think that the back-surround mics on the camera, which are on the bottom of the camera (!), are ideally placed). And the add-on mic is very small, and does not need an additional power source (active connection), so it does not add much bulk to an already bulky camera.


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## HarpuaFSB

I've shot a few bands with the TD10 and just got around to working with the files.


One thing I've noticed (and it's one big thing) is that I seem to have one second of silence in-between clips when I shoot for more than ten minutes.


To me, this is a crippling "bug", if it can be called that. I was very annoyed when I discovered this.


Does this happen to everyone or do I have a defective unit?


Ugh, so pissed.


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## pteittinen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20626558
> 
> 
> MVC is not a file extension. It is a type of package and system used to bundle 3D video and audio in one compressed file. It basically consists of an AVC / h.264 video clip plus a delta file that is used to calculate the difference in image for the accompanying stereo video file plus the audio in one package. The file extension used for Sony TD10 is mts. The MVC codec for Sony 3D is used to calculate the stereo video clip. Without proper decoding, all you will see is the 2D left eye video in AVC. Not all MVC codecs are the same. You have to use the right one for your camcorder.



So much inaccurate information! MVC is not a "package and system used to bundle 3D video and audio". A container is such a package, while MVC is a video compression codec, not a container format. M2TS and MTS are file extensions for BDAV MPEG-2 Transport Stream container format, which is based on the MPEG-2 transport stream originally designed for broadcasting. Video and audio streams are multiplexed in the container. MVC has nothing to do with audio, and yes, all MVC codecs are the same (since there's only the one MVC standard) - it's the container format that differs between various products, such as the Sony TD10 and JVC TD1 camcorders.


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## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HarpuaFSB* /forum/post/20676597
> 
> 
> I've shot a few bands with the TD10 and just got around to working with the files.
> 
> 
> One thing I've noticed (and it's one big thing) is that I seem to have one second of silence in-between clips when I shoot for more than ten minutes.
> 
> 
> To me, this is a crippling "bug", if it can be called that. I was very annoyed when I discovered this.
> 
> 
> Does this happen to everyone or do I have a defective unit?
> 
> 
> Ugh, so pissed.



How are you getting your files from the TD10 into your editor? The MTS files in the camera are all sliced up and if you drag them as is into your computer you will have that trouble. That is why you should use the tool PMB that comes with the camera and then those long clips will all be stitched together nice and precise plus you have a better file name that represents a date and time shot as opposed to a sequentialnumber.mts. The file in the camcorder is a package that contains the MVC mpeg 2 image a difference file and the audio file plus any meta data. All the long shots will be truncated in the clips, i.e. split into several files due to FAT32 limitations. This is all nicely arranged and stitched together as an m2ts file by PMB for use in your editor. ( I'm sure Petri will come back in here and police my language but the process is basic and correct.)

I don't think there is anything wrong with your equipment. I think there is something wrong with your work flow. Use PMB, and complete the analyze clips before pulling them into Vegas for editing.


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## HarpuaFSB

Ah ok, will do that. I was working on a Mac to do a 2D Blu-ray in Premiere and that software is Windows only. I have a Windows 7 partition on my Mac so I guess from now on I'll pull what I need in Windows instead of OS X.


Kind of annoying though if I want to work with the files in OS X. Is there any way to pull the files out of the STREAM directory and not have this one second of silence?


If not, whatever I guess, but it's another step =)


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## Don Landis

Sorry, but if you just have to use a MAC, you'll need to do what others here do and use windows loaded on a MAC to run windows software. You have plenty of company here doing that for support. The PMB software does a perfect job of stitching those files together for the full length clip. It's all automatic and easy too.


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## HarpuaFSB

Yeah, I just did that.


Not a big deal but having to boot into Windows, import the files via PMB then copy them over to my OS X partition is a little annoying.


Wasn't a problem with other Sony Handycams because I always had a separate audio track.


Sony should port that software to OS X. It's not like the "old" days anymore, Macs are pretty mainstream and should be supported.


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## Don Landis

My daughter wanted a camcorder like mine- the HDR SR12 a couple years ago but I recognized her husband and inlaws refused to permit a PC in the house, Macheads all the way. So, knowing that Sony made PMB only in PC version, I had to buy her a similar Canon camcorder with hard drive record because it came with export software that worked on the Mac too. Maybe you should just avoid buying Sony stuff and stick to what works on a Mac if doing all the work arounds is such a PIA. One has to decide what has priority- the desire to make 3D videos on Blu-Ray, or, to use a MAC and OSX to make video. Right now, the only company that has a complete 3D to BluRay package is Sony and Sony supports the windows environment and not Mac video editing. But many are successful with the hacks and work arounds to mix it all up.


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## HarpuaFSB

Yeah, like I said this extra step isn't that big of a deal but it is an extra step. I mean I use Adobe CS5.5 for all my 2D work so I'm not going to fork over the cash for a Windows version when I already have the Mac version.


Just need to get comfortable in Vegas now for the 3D editing.


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## Don Landis

Two tips to making Vegas really efficient-


1. Get your head out of the 3 point editing box of the last century and start thinking intuitively by just putting clips on the timeline and trimming and moving things there.

2. Take time to learn the advantage of mouse right click to access appropriate tools. The right mouse button over may parts of the desktop will open a whole new way of finding the tool set that has what you need.

3. OK there is a third, that very few ever learn. Shift F1 or the ? button will open up your how to index. If people would learn to use this the forums would be 25% the number of questions. Trust me it's faster to use this than wait for people like me to use it for you and quote what's in there.







Here there is a step by step how to do stuff with index search and key word search, plus lots of explanation to accompany the how to.


With Vegas there are often a half dozen different ways to do the same thing. You decide what works best and fastest. One thing I did was buy a custom keyboard from Bella that has all the hot keys labeled and a jog shuttle wheel for speed moving through video like a real linear edit suite.


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## HarpuaFSB

Thanks for the tips, it's quite different from Premiere, I'm struggling on things such as syncing audio with video but I'll figure it out eventually.


One thing about Vegas I don't really like is the limitation on the bitrate for 3D.


I know Sony wants to protect their pro-tools but it still kind of sucks.


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## Don Landis

If you have an audio clip that was grouped with your video in the file, and you ungroup it, the color will change when no longer synced. When the audio and video are properly realigned by sliding, the clips will go white, no longer pink when unsynced.

Now if you remember what I said about right clicking. Do that on the pink colored out of sync audio. See in the popup menu "Syncing" select it and choose where you want to sync by sliding or moving the clip. Do I need to explain the difference? Or are you on your way to resolving the unknown here?










Remember that the syncing will only work for audio that is sourced from original clips that are grouped. If you shot video without sound ( MOS) and recorded the sound on a audio cassette player and digitized both and are trying to sync them, none of this will work. You'll have to slide the clips around manually. It only works where the audio and video were once grouped. BTW- Grouping is a very powerful tool in editing Select a video and audio tracks clips and tap the G key and they will be joined until you ungroup them with the U key. There are other ways to do the same thing.


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## HarpuaFSB

Yeah, I'm talking about syncing with a different audio source.


In Premiere I set markers on the audio and video tracks where I want to sync them up and then can align the two tracks and fine tune it with the arrow keys when a track is selected.


I imagine that the process is similar in Vegas but I haven't been able to figure it out yet. Granted I haven't spent too much time trying, I just need to sit down and figure it out or find a video tutorial.


Thanks for that grouping tip, will file that in the back of my brain for later use.


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## Don Landis

By markers do you mean you used a clapboard in production? I used to but then I switched my shooting audio and video (recorded separately on multicam shoots) with the use of timecode. (LTC) Using timecode lock on all cameras ( professional camcorders) I just lined up the TC and all was in sync since every cAmcorder and audio Nagra recorder were locked to same LTC. When working blind, to get things roughed in is difficult unless you know what clips are close video / audio. Once they are close you can look for clues in the speech patters like long moments of silence where the speaker should have his mouth shut. I once took on a project for a company when my work was slow to sync audio with video for them where some new employees shot multicam with no reference audio, just the video. Only one camera had the audio track recorded or the project would have been lost altogether. It was pure labor and I billed by the hour. What a mess that was to salvage. When recording audio separately, always clapboard with a slate and voice countdown as in "title, scene 2, take 5, mark(clap) then count them in. Or use time code lock on the cameras and audio recorder.


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## HarpuaFSB




> Quote:
> By markers do you mean you used a clapboard in production



Yeah I think so. I mean I put a marker on the timeline of the audio and video tracks and then line the two markers up in Premiere.


Not a clapboard but in this instance (filming a band playing live) the hit of a snare drum.


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## Don Landis

Yeah that works. Something obvious that you can use to sync with. I still don't know your entire production process but somehow you have clips that aren't synced to audio, or, maybe you shot multicam and wish to sync all other cameras to one master camera that had the audio track you want to use.

If you are using multi cam editing, you need to check out Vegas multicam configuration. It basically gives you a preview monitor for each camera and you can switch by selecting the camera and this sets up the edits on the timeline automatically. It's really a great way to edit many cameras shooting the same scene from different angles. But step 1 is to sync everything up first. This would be a whole special thread so I won't get into it now but use the index, search on keyword multicam and see how you can do this process real slick and easy.


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## HarpuaFSB




> Quote:
> I still don't know your entire production process but somehow you have clips that aren't synced to audio, or, maybe you shot multicam and wish to sync all other cameras to one master camera that had the audio track you want to use.



Basically it's a single-cam shot of a band playing in a bar. I want to sync the soundboard audio with the video I took as the audio I got from the camera was predictably terrible.


Piece of cake in Premiere but I need to figure out the corresponding workflow in Vegas when I do the 3D Blu-ray.


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## Don Landis

OK, you don't need multicam then. You can line up the audio two ways, I always used both at the same time because it was easy. When you put the soundboard audio recording on the audio track just below your camera audio track, do a rough lineup using the waveform. Then play it and listen to both together and slide the soundboard clip while playing until the echo or reverb goes away. They are matched. If you expand the resolution of the timeline Use mouse wheel or click on the + in lower right corner, you can also see the waveform match up. There is a third way too that works but I don't think too accurately in your case. It is an automatic lineup but your waveforms have to be close to work right. Extraneous crowd noise from the camcorder track will mess with the accuracy of this 3rd automatic method. Your ears and brain will be much faster just listening and sliding. Once everything is lined up, then just disable the camcorder audio track on the left or reduce it's volume leaving just the soundboard audio. I wouldn't delete it incase you need to resync later in your project.


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## HarpuaFSB

Do you slide the tracks with the mouse or keys?


For reference, here's a screenshot of how I do it in Premiere.


The top track is the video and the bottom two are the two audio tracks. I add markers at the point I want to sync on both audio tracks and then just line them up by dragging the tracks then checking for an echo.


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## Don Landis

In Vegas you can add the markers if you want or just look at the audio waveform. You can slide the audio track with the click and slide with the mouse or you can nudge left or right with the #1 key or #3 key on the numeric keypad. All this stuff is answered in the help files with methods to use. Many times in video editing you need to set your accuracy stop points to frame points as it is not good to have stuff trigger on a 3/3 frame. However, audio many need a finer tune so in this case you shut off quantization to frames and adjust your audio finer than 1/30 of a second, and then set the snap to back to quantize to frames. I'm sure Premiere permits editing audio more precisely than 1/30 second as well. Since you are into figuring this sort of thing out for your current project I thought I'd pass that tidbit along as well.


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## HarpuaFSB

You can add markers to individual tracks? I could only find markers that extend over all tracks (the ones used as chapter points when burning from the timeline to disc).


And yeah, in Premiere as you zoom in the timeline you gain finer control of moving tracks around.


I'll hit up that help file, sorry to go so off-topic here.


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## markr041

This discussion has really gone off the topic of this thread and forum subtopic - synching audio from an external source has nothing to do with 3D or with the Sony TD10.


Nevertheless, may I suggest looking into PluralEyes, which is a plug-in for Vegas that automatically synchs audio from any source and video based on the audio from the camcorder, and works with multiple cameras too.

http://www.singularsoftware.com/howto_pe_vegas.html


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## Don Landis

You can add markers to individual tracks?


Yes, has exactly the same look as your dot on a line. The true timeline markers you can add captions to remind you what you marked. Or use them as chapter stops when importing to DVD. A marker on an audio track is also known as a key frame spot where the audio can change like change in volume, change in tempo or change in pan. If there is no change it can just be used as a marker.


I agree this side track has gotten way off topic. It should be in the Vegas beginner's editing thread. IMO.







This will be my last post here on this.


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## HarpuaFSB

Yeah, sorry about that guys. Just found out that Vegas released 10.0e? I had no idea, off to find a Vegas thread here to see what's in the update.


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## Andrew_Woods

Hi All,


I've been battling with Sony Vegas Movie Studio 11 (SVMS11) to have the audio correctly in sync with 3D video shot with the Sony HDR-TD10.


The crux of the problem seems to be that when the TD10 shoots for more than about 20mins, the MTS files in the camera automatically get split into 2GB segments, and when SVMS11 imports these files onto the timeline, it gets the audio sync all wrong. SVMS11 doesn't recognise that the start point of the audio and video don't always coincide and it also sometimes miscalculates the correct length of the video clip AND the audio clip. As a result the audio can be very wrong at times.


I've tried using "Videoredo" to "Quickstream Fix" the MTS file, which does overcome the audio sync problem, but Videoredo doesn't recognise the secondary MVC 3D stream so the output file is only 2D.


Someone on this forum suggested using the Sony PMB program supplied with the camera to join the individual 2GB MTS files. In my case one of the resultant M2TS files is ~8GB in size (~60mins of video). This does seem to solve the audio sync problem when playing in an external M2TS player, however when I try to import this 8GB file into SVMS11, the full length of the video file is not shown on the timeline (perhaps only the first 2GB). Is SVMS11 limited to 2GB files?


I've also tried using another utility (TSMuxer) to intelligently split the 8GB M2TS file into 2GB segments, but this particular app also doesn't recognise the secondary MVC 3D stream so the output file becomes 2D again.


Has anyone found a solution to these issues?

It seems to me that (a) SVMS11 doesn't correctly interpret the audio/video sync in the unusual 3D MTS files, and (b) SVMS11 won't import files larger than 2GB. I'm been trying to find a workflow to preprocess the files to overcome these hurdles, but no luck so far...


This is of course in addition to SVMS11's problem of the incorrect decoding of DD5.1 in the 3D MTS files (introducing clicking sounds in the audio) of which a solution was discussed here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post20492186 

In my case, I couldn't find the installer for SVMS10 so I used Videoredo to strip the audio out of the MTS file and Goldwave to convert the AC3 file into a 2 channel WAV (SVMS11 won't directly import an AC3 audio file). BUT... audio sync is still a problem since SVMS11 seems to be incorrectly detecting the correct duration of the video file. sigh...


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## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andrew_Woods* /forum/post/20688016
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> 
> I've been battling with Sony Vegas Movie Studio 11 (SVMS11) to have the audio correctly in sync with 3D video shot with the Sony HDR-TD10.
> 
> 
> The crux of the problem seems to be that when the TD10 shoots for more than about 20mins, the MTS files in the camera automatically get split into 2GB segments, and when SVMS11 imports these files onto the timeline, it gets the audio sync all wrong. SVMS11 doesn't recognise that the start point of the audio and video don't always coincide and it also sometimes miscalculates the correct length of the video clip AND the audio clip. As a result the audio can be very wrong at times.
> 
> 
> I've tried using "Videoredo" to "Quickstream Fix" the MTS file, which does overcome the audio sync problem, but Videoredo doesn't recognise the secondary MVC 3D stream so the output file is only 2D.
> 
> 
> Someone on this forum suggested using the Sony PMB program supplied with the camera to join the individual 2GB MTS files. In my case one of the resultant M2TS files is ~8GB in size (~60mins of video). This does seem to solve the audio sync problem when playing in an external M2TS player, however when I try to import this 8GB file into SVMS11, the full length of the video file is not shown on the timeline (perhaps only the first 2GB). Is SVMS11 limited to 2GB files?
> 
> 
> I've also tried using another utility (TSMuxer) to intelligently split the 8GB M2TS file into 2GB segments, but this particular app also doesn't recognise the secondary MVC 3D stream so the output file becomes 2D again.
> 
> 
> Has anyone found a solution to these issues?
> 
> It seems to me that (a) SVMS11 doesn't correctly interpret the audio/video sync in the unusual 3D MTS files, and (b) SVMS11 won't import files larger than 2GB. I'm been trying to find a workflow to preprocess the files to overcome these hurdles, but no luck so far...
> 
> 
> This is of course in addition to SVMS11's problem of the incorrect decoding of DD5.1 in the 3D MTS files (introducing clicking sounds in the audio) of which a solution was discussed here:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post20492186
> 
> In my case, I couldn't find the installer for SVMS10 so I used Videoredo to strip the audio out of the MTS file and Goldwave to convert the AC3 file into a 2 channel WAV (SVMS11 won't directly import an AC3 audio file). BUT... audio sync is still a problem since SVMS11 seems to be incorrectly detecting the correct duration of the video file. sigh...



If the files are split without headers added, binary concatenation should have worked. I've not used PMB to do this. In case the issue with the SVMS11 import of the result is caused by something PMB did, you could try a CMD based binary concatenation (joining) of the files.


Binary file concatenation of split files can be done in a CMD window using the "copy" function with the /b option for binary. "Binary: this case means to copy the files and combine them without modifying them at all.


>copy /b file1.mts + file2.mts + file3.mts + ... + filen.mts outputfile.mts


Filen.mts are an ordered list of previously split files which should consist of at least 2 files. The /b option causes the binary concatenation copying mode. The output files can be very large. Proof read the "copy" command before pressing enter.


Files may include full path, or default to the directory selected in the cmd window.


I am a bit confused about the problem with the 8GB file and why you are splitting it after you joined it, since that would result in a split up file. Could it be that the original files were not split along packet boundaries, and you are attempting to re-split them at packet boundaries?


Have you tried rendering the files individually through svms11 and then importing the individually output files from SMSV11 back into SMSV11?


On another topic, you mentioned "an external M2TS player." What does that consist of? Does it play the files in 3D?


Wouldn't it be great if VRDO would support 3D MVC file edits at IDR or I frame cut points. This would be a simpler project for them without any need for rendering at the cut points, i.e. their intelligent re-code would not need any recoding at all. All they'd need is recognize and produce the correct headers for the 3D MVC, since they'd leave the two channels intact in the stream. I've been meaning to post that in new feature suggestions at their forum.


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## Andrew_Woods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20688108
> 
> 
> If the files are split without headers added, binary concatenation should have worked. I've not used PMB to do this. In case the issue with the SVMS11 import of the result is caused by something PMB did, you could try a CMD based binary concatenation (joining) of the files.



Hello Richard, Thanks for your detailed suggestion. I just tried the binary concatenation as you suggested and unfortunately the resultant file is unreadable in Sony Vegas Movie Studio 11 (SVMS11).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20688108
> 
> 
> I am a bit confused about the problem with the 8GB file and why you are splitting it after you joined it, since that would result in a split up file.



The problem with the 8GB file is that SVMS11 seems unable to recognise anything past the first 2GB. The file is perfectly OK itself when played with Stereoscopic Player. Hence I wanted to split the 8GB file into 2GB segments (but this time with the splits on packet boundaries) so I can get it into SVMS11.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20688108
> 
> 
> Could it be that the original files were not split along packet boundaries, and you are attempting to re-split them at packet boundaries?



Correct.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20688108
> 
> 
> Have you tried rendering the files individually through svms11 and then importing the individually output files from SMSV11 back into SMSV11?



The problem is that SVMS11 is incapable of importing the original 2GB split MTS files (which come directly out of the camera) without audio sync problems.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20688108
> 
> 
> On another topic, you mentioned "an external M2TS player." What does that consist of? Does it play the files in 3D?



The latest version of "Stereoscopic Player" ( http://www.3dtv.at ) will play the Sony and JVC 3D AVC/MVC files in 3D.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20688108
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it be great if VRDO would support 3D MVC file edits at IDR or I frame cut points.



It seems others have requested that feature. http://www.videoredo.net/msgBoard/sh...ad.php?t=28329 

It would be good to have others express their interest in this additional feature.


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## Andrew_Woods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andrew_Woods* /forum/post/20688016
> 
> 
> I've been battling with Sony Vegas Movie Studio 11 (SVMS11) to have the audio correctly in sync with 3D video shot with the Sony HDR-TD10.



I've done some further experimenting and I think I've come up with a solution.

1. use Sony PMB (supplied with the camera) to download the 3D MVC files from the Sony HDR-TD10 to the PC. This creates M2TS files (and joins files that were split in camera on the 2GB boundary). (Unfortunately SVMS11 seems to ignore anything past the 2GB mark on M2TS files that are larger than 2GB so these files cannot be directly imported into SVMS11).

2. still in Sony PMB, use the "Manipulate->Edit->Trim Video" feature to save subsets of any M2TS files that are larger than 2GB. You'll need to set the IN and OUT points manually, and guess a length that will generate an output file that is


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## Don Landis

This is to all who will be using the Sony 3D camcorder- but Andrew's epiphany got me to thinking as he is not the first to make these mistakes causing user trouble-


Andrew- Please explain something to me because you are not the only one who insists on trying to do things completely bassackwards when the right way has been given to you. Plus has been explained over and over here and in other forums. I just don't understand it.

It's like you buy a box of tools to build something and instead of using the supplied hammer to pound nails you go out and buy an ice pick to pound nails, even after everyone tells you the hammer is the proper tool to do it. Then you finally pick up the hammer and to your amazement it works so you have an epiphany thinking after continued experimenting the hammer actually is the right way to pound nails.


Why is it that buyers of the TD10 insist on refusing to use PMB to import the files?


I swear, soon someone here will post that they ripped open the TD10 and unsoldered the memory chips on the camcorder to try and stick them in their computer and then complain because Sony didn't use memory that fits.










Word of advice- When you buy something new or try to use something you don't know everything about, READ THE MANUAL FIRST! If you want to make improvements on the way the creators of the device recommend, at least _do it their way first_, understand what it is doing, and THEN play with your improvement experiments.


----------



## Videoguy68

Quote:

Originally Posted by *

Word of advice- When you buy something new or try to use something you don't know everything about, READ THE MANUAL FIRST! If you want to make improvements on the way the creators of the device recommend, at least [I*
do it their way first[/i], understand what it is doing, and THEN play with your improvement experiments.
Don:


I share your feelings exactly. I had two Sony AVCHD camcorders and always used the FREE PMB software that came with the camera to ingest (read transfer) files to the computer from the camera.


The same is true with the HdR-TD10 cmaera that came with a new version of Sony's PMB software.


The first step is to install the software, then connect the camera to the computer where it should be identified as a "Mass storage device".

Then fire up the PMB software and transfer the clips to a designated folder on the computer. It is easy and no problem.


Why would anyone do it any other way?


Regards,


Marty


----------



## vsv

Anyone is used DeckLink HD Extreme 3D to LIVE capture uncompressed (or Cineform) stream from TD10 via hdmi ?
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/pro...linkhdextreme/


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20689236
> 
> 
> This is to all who will be using the Sony 3D camcorder- but Andrew's epiphany got me to thinking as he is not the first to make these mistakes causing user trouble-
> 
> 
> Andrew- Please explain something to me because you are not the only one who insists on trying to do things completely bassackwards when the right way has been given to you. Plus has been explained over and over here and in other forums. I just don't understand it.
> 
> It's like you buy a box of tools to build something and instead of using the supplied hammer to pound nails you go out and buy an ice pick to pound nails, even after everyone tells you the hammer is the proper tool to do it. Then you finally pick up the hammer and to your amazement it works so you have an epiphany thinking after continued experimenting the hammer actually is the right way to pound nails.
> 
> 
> Why is it that buyers of the TD10 insist on refusing to use PMB to import the files?
> 
> 
> I swear, soon someone here will post that they ripped open the TD10 and unsoldered the memory chips on the camcorder to try and stick them in their computer and then complain because Sony didn't use memory that fits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Word of advice- When you buy something new or try to use something you don't know everything about, READ THE MANUAL FIRST! If you want to make improvements on the way the creators of the device recommend, at least _do it their way first_, understand what it is doing, and THEN play with your improvement experiments.




Good visualization of the inability to recover recorded content from a camcorders internal flash chips. This is not like tape, where we could get the cassette tape out and recover most or all of our content when the internal tape transport became defective during operation.


With this in mind, I was thinking that I should probably record to the SD slot as the first choice on the TD10, as this will allow easy recovery of the content if / when the TD10 goes belly up. My extended warranty might cover the wife accidentally dropping the TD10 in the pool, but not the recovery of data buried inside.


Closer to the complaint about R.T.F.M., does the manual for Sony Vegas Movie Studio 11 (SVMS11) explain not to use files bigger than 2GB?


The lack of robustness of SVMS11 seems to be the issue here. It is so easy for software to be user friendly. What sort of ridiculous user interface would fail to operate properly on 2+GB files without at least meaningful error message? Importing 2+GB files would be an expected occurrence for video. Also, the software should be able to at least detect and report files that are likely to cause A/V sync issues.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andrew_Woods* /forum/post/20688326
> 
> 
> The latest version of "Stereoscopic Player" ( http://www.3dtv.at ) will play the Sony and JVC 3D AVC/MVC files in 3D.
> 
> 
> It seems others have requested that feature. http://www.videoredo.net/msgBoard/sh...ad.php?t=28329
> 
> It would be good to have others express their interest in this additional feature.



Thanks for link to Stereoscopic Player.


Actually my id at VideoReDo forum is HDStreamer and I started that thread before I got the TD10. I just posted a follow on suggestion there.


----------



## Andrew_Woods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20689236
> 
> 
> {colourful narrative deleted}
> 
> Why is it that buyers of the TD10 insist on refusing to use PMB to import the files?



I can't speak for other users, but this was my reasoning:

1. Because downloading via PMB is VERY slow. My estimate is that it takes about 10 times longer to download the clips through PMB, than directly. (I must admit that I'm a little bit worried that PMB might be recompressing some aspect of the files).

2. Because it requires the installation of additional software.

3. Direct downloading has worked with every other camera I've used.


Direct downloading the


----------



## MediaWarrior309

I've been extremely disappointed with SVMS11 thus far. I've been a loyal Vegas user since Platinum 6/ Pro 7, and I've never had 1/100th of the problems I've had compared to this. This gives a whole new meaning to the definition of "buggy". It just flat out doesn't work worth a S***, and you can quote me on that. This software is utter garbage. It's memory management is completely flawed, it's constantly crashing, even when I'm just trying to render, say, a 30 or 60 second clip, and when you ask it to work with 3D files... forget it.


... and in case anyone is wondering... it's not a hardware issue. My computer is state of the art regarding horsepower (i7 with tons of memory), and runs flawlessly with Pro 9. SVMS11 just isn't ready for primetime, and I'm very disappointed with Sony for the first time ever. Uninstalling.


----------



## markr041

Nice rant. I do understand it is frustrating when you cannot get something to work. I also understand the inclination to blame others when one does not get what one wants. Perhaps the truth is somehwere in between.


I use Sony Platinum 11 on my NETBOOK computer with an Atom chip and 2GB of memory. I have successfully made 7 3D videos of from 5 to 18 minutes in length using on average for each video 3-6 GB's of video files from the TD10. I never had a crash. Period. I have posted the videos in this forum, so you can see I am not making it up, and you can see the quality (they are 108060i sbs 1/2 frame, 16 Mbps). I am amazed that I can do 3D editing on my little computer. The render times are many hours, and it is difficult to do trimming, but it does the job. It is impossible that the program is a resource hog as it works with a 2GB machine. I have not tried any fancy disolves or transitions (I actually dislike their use in most videos I see) and I am not using 5.1 audio, just stereo. So it is certainly possible that some aspects of the program are buggy.


I am not saying the program is flawless. I am saying the program can perform.


Once again this thread has gone off track - this about the camcorder not SVMSP11, but I bit anyway.


----------



## MediaWarrior309




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20692909
> 
> 
> .... and I am not using 5.1 audio, just stereo.



I have decided to not give up and will continue to try to isolate what's causing these constant crashes.... but based off my research so far, I'm thinking that the 5.1 audio may be the biggest culprit. It seems to be "instant crashing" everytime I try to render a stereo clip from a 5.1 source (for instance, using a M2ts video from the TD-10 with 5.1, and rendering to say, a HD wmv with stereo audio....)....


When using 3D source material from the TD-10, no matter what format I am rendering to, it eventually crashes because of "your system is low on memory", even though I've got 16 GB on this machine, which should be plenty (and according to windows task manager, it's only using up to, say, 33% or so). When I'm rendering to a high bitrate format with high compression (say, 8.4 Mbps wmv, or 16/25 Mbps mp4 or avc, or m2ts) it crashes almost the instant it starts to render. If I'm rendering to a low compression, low bitrate format, say MPEG-2 NTSC, or avi, then it seems to last a bit longer... anywhere from a few seconds, up to 7 or 8 minutes into the render.... but still, it eventually crashes too.


I will provide more feedback in the next couple days... Thank you for your reply.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andrew_Woods* /forum/post/20692864
> 
> 
> I can't speak for other users, but this was my reasoning:
> 
> 1. Because downloading via PMB is VERY slow. My estimate is that it takes about 10 times longer to download the clips through PMB, than directly. (I must admit that I'm a little bit worried that PMB might be recompressing some aspect of the files).
> 
> 2. Because it requires the installation of additional software.
> 
> 3. Direct downloading has worked with every other camera I've used.
> 
> 
> Direct downloading the 12Gb m2ts file the last time I worked with VMS and it loaded fast and rendered about 50% longer time frame than Vegas Pro I'm thinking the extra time was due to 32 bit with 3Gb RAM restriction vs. 64bit Vegas Pro with 8Gb ram. Either way the computer did not crash and the operation was complete all the way through.
> 
> 
> 
> Go back to when Vegas first was released in v10d for 3D MVC video in mid May. I had lots of crashes, like everyone else with trouble here. But I went through and did some house cleaning and uninstalled all the bloatware I had including many of the experimental 3D apps recommended here. Then I cleaned up the fragments left in my registry file. There were lots left from all that bug beta wear I had installed. Two things happened after that. 1. My system rebooted in 15% of the time and 2. Vegas hasn't crashed since! It is now 100% crash free! I've done some pretty robust timelines with tons of slomo, pan crop, mattes keyframed effects, 4 and 5 layer 3D composites and the rendering and editing are all crash free. Besides, its running on a 64bit quadcore with Vista Home 64 bit. Vista the OS that everyone claims is so buggy yet you all are the ones with all the trouble.
> 
> 
> Is Vegas ( both consumer and pro) perfect? No. Vegas Media Studio does have the clickity DD 5.1 artifact on TD10 clips but as they now fixed that bug in Vegas Pro 10e, I'm waiting for an update to VMS v11 to have an update to fix that too. But even with that bug, VMS v11 is quite stable and has none of the problems you and Richard are suggesting.The only bugs I have seen in Vegas Pro v10e are cosmetic and work flow issues in the burn bluray.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20693579
> 
> 
> 1. Compared to what? Something you did that doesn't work?
> 
> 2. LOL! You are grasping for excuses. I'd bet with your trouble you have all sorts of unnecessary software on your system you installed.
> 
> 3. Direct downloading of files on the camera that were saved in a format that works directly in Vegas. 3D is totally different.
> 
> 
> Sorry, but Richard is looking in the wrong direction for the resolution to his problems with Vegas.
> 
> 
> PMB created m2ts from the files on the TD10 are no problem working in VMS HD Platinum. v11 or v10. I loaded up a >12Gb m2ts file the last time I worked with VMS and it loaded fast and rendered about 50% longer time frame than Vegas Pro I'm thinking the extra time was due to 32 bit with 3Gb RAM restriction vs. 64bit Vegas Pro with 8Gb ram. Either way the computer did not crash and the operation was complete all the way through.
> 
> 
> 
> Go back to when Vegas first was released in v10d for 3D MVC video in mid May. I had lots of crashes, like everyone else with trouble here. But I went through and did some house cleaning and uninstalled all the bloatware I had including many of the experimental 3D apps recommended here. Then I cleaned up the fragments left in my registry file. There were lots left from all that bug beta wear I had installed. Two things happened after that. 1. My system rebooted in 15% of the time and 2. Vegas hasn't crashed since! It is now 100% crash free! I've done some pretty robust timelines with tons of slomo, pan crop, mattes keyframed effects, 4 and 5 layer 3D composites and the rendering and editing are all crash free. Besides, its running on a 64bit quadcore with Vista Home 64 bit. Vista the OS that everyone claims is so buggy yet you all are the ones with all the trouble.
> 
> 
> Is Vegas ( both consumer and pro) perfect? No. Vegas Media Studio does have the clickity DD 5.1 artifact on TD10 clips but as they now fixed that bug in Vegas Pro 10e, I'm waiting for an update to VMS v11 to have an update to fix that too. But even with that bug, VMS v11 is quite stable and has none of the problems you and Richard are suggesting.The only bugs I have seen in Vegas Pro v10e are cosmetic and work flow issues in the burn bluray.



In this context, "Directly" likely means that the files in the camcorder are transferred into the computer using the efficient and fast USB Mass storage software that is included with the OS. It seems that if Vegas is the target editor, PMB is the best way to go. Is PMB really that slow? That would be something Sony should fix. It doesn't take re-compression to make a data transfer slow. Poor programming practices are enough to cause the inefficiency. I recall that I have an aversion to installing Sony supplied PMB since a similar piece of Sony software messed up a friend of mine's computer by installing a terrible kind of malware known as a "rootkit." This substantially reduced the trust my friend had in Sony Supplied software.


----------



## Don Landis

Richard- As I recall the rootkit scandal had to do with Sony music group adding it to their music CD's. The widely spread rumors that Sony was installing it by playing all it's media, namely bluray movies and other Sony DVD's was without proof or foundation. In addition I never heard any reports that installing Sony Software such as PMB, Vegas or any from the SCS group was participating in this. I'd say your "friend" is at worst a liar, or at minimum covering up that he simply played an audio CD in his computer that had the suspect rootkit. Then trying to blam it on software from a totally different division of the company. Sony recalled all the affected CD's when they got caught in this scandal. BUT, I do agree with you that for a company to do such a thing is a company that we should watch out for.


One problem you are having trouble grasping, Richard, is that the MTS files you are trying to extract to edit with from the camcorder memory are only the building blocks for the files you need to edit. They are not ready to be used for editing until AFTER processed by the PMB software that came with the TD10. If you have an issue with patients waiting for the files to be transformed into what you can use, then send your complaint to Sony telling them they need to speed it up because you feel their code is sloppy. I'm sure they will put your request at the top of their things to do.


Now here's a question you or maybe other can venture a guess at- Given that the TD10 storage is formatted to FAT32 which restricts single file sizes to


----------



## Richard Adams

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
Richard- As I recall the rootkit scandal had to do with Sony music group adding it to their music CD's. The widely spread rumors that Sony was installing it by playing all it's media, namely bluray movies and other Sony DVD's was without proof or foundation. In addition I never heard any reports that installing Sony Software such as PMB, Vegas or any from the SCS group was participating in this. I'd say your "friend" is at worst a liar, or at minimum covering up that he simply played an audio CD in his computer that had the suspect rootkit. Then trying to blam it on software from a totally different division of the company. Sony recalled all the affected CD's when they got caught in this scandal. BUT, I do agree with you that for a company to do such a thing is a company that we should watch out for.


One problem you are having trouble grasping, Richard, is that the MTS files you are trying to extract to edit with from the camcorder memory are only the building blocks for the files you need to edit. They are not ready to be used for editing until AFTER processed by the PMB software that came with the TD10. If you have an issue with patients waiting for the files to be transformed into what you can use, then send your complaint to Sony telling them they need to speed it up because you feel their code is sloppy. I'm sure they will put your request at the top of their things to do.


Now here's a question you or maybe other can venture a guess at- Given that the TD10 storage is formatted to FAT32 which restricts single file sizes to


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Fat32 has no licensing fees while NTFS is the NTFS is proprietary to Microsoft and there licensing fees that Sony doesn't want to pay to use it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat32#Future .



Good as a reason as any. Didn't know that. Wonder if the JVC does the same thing? Joe?


NTFS- I could never get my NTFS to work with my Mac. After I reformatted the drive to FAT 32 it worked for the Mac. Been awhile so maybe it was the write I couldn't do but I know it didn't work for my use.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andrew_Woods* /forum/post/20688326
> 
> 
> The latest version of "Stereoscopic Player" ( http://www.3dtv.at ) will play the Sony and JVC 3D AVC/MVC files in 3D.



Using the "stereoscopic player" I was able to playback 3D MVC files from my Sony HDR-TD10 - it looks excellent.


This looks better than connecting the TD10 directly to the monitor, for this monitor.


My setup: Cored2duo 8500, Nvidia 8500GT graphics, WinXP SP3, LG D2342P interlace polarized passive monitor, RealD 3D glasses from my local theater.


Here is a link to the downloads page for free trial of that player http://www.3dtv.at/Downloads/Index_en.aspx 


There is an issue for me during playback that occasionally there is an aberration in the motion where the part of the screen in motion has decreased interline resolution, and I see scan lines. This may be a unique way that my setup is acting to not having enough CPU or graphics power. Does anyone observe motion artifacts with that player and TD10 files?

*Summary of other methods I've tried to play TD10 files with my setup:*

*From within Sony Vegas Pro 10d* - will do anaglyph and SBS half, though results are inferior to Stereoscopic Player. The selection within Vegas for line alternate, which would seem to have been for my monitor, does not work properly from Vegas.

*PS3* - PS3 won't play 3D from my Sony HDR-TD10 files by flash or by DLNA server. This is a major interoperability snafu by Sony. What were they thinking? I heard that I have to convert the TD10 video to 1080p24 or 720p60 (render encode takes forever) and then burn it to a bluray to be able to play my TD10 files on the PS3. Haven't tried that since bluray blank disks only recently went low enough in price, and I'm sitting on the fence about using another recordable optical format (bluray) when hard drives are still cheaper and faster.

*TMT 7* - Total Media Theater 7 - The trial version locks up and never plays anything for me. Can't get support without buying it so the trial version is useless.

*PowerDVD 11* - In "video" mode, my TD10 files play in 3D and there is some, but only minimal depth. The resolution looks correct but the depth I see on the TD10 viewfinder and via the "stereoscopic player" software on my monitor is missing with PowerDVD 11. I note that there is a Cinema mode for this program, when I select that, I see good depth on the GUI graphics, but I cannot load a file to play. I heard is only plays bluray media or an iso "mounted" to look like a virtual bluray drive, and I haven't tried this yet.


I wonder if I can somehow easily put my TD10 MVC files into a bluray iso file without render / re-encode (they are 1080i60) and play them as a virtual drive in PowerDVD and see the full 3D depth that way with Powerdvd

*Sony HDR-TD10* - direct connection to my passive monitor using the HDMI cable supplied. In order to make this work with my monitor, I have to select Side by Side mode of HDMI output. The video quality is not as good as I see with "Stereoscopic Player" - The resolution seems reduced. When I select "Auto" or "frame packing" mode for the Hdmi output of the TD10, I do not get a correct image on my monitor. This might be unusual for this monitor type.


Note: I didn't install or use PMB, and only did USB mass storage mode to transfer file from the TD10 to the computer, and the 3D looks ok with stereoscopic view, except as noted. I will install PMB and see if that makes a difference.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Richard,


What you're getting with PowerDVD 11 is a 2D to 3D conversion of the left eye view. It's no better than what many HDMI 1.4 TVs, such as the Samsungs, do when they convert 2D to 3D on the fly. It can be a pleasant diversion (which it was when there was virtually no 3D content), but it's not close to the real thing. PDVD 11 can play back 3D Blu-ray or virtual 3D Blu-ray discs (mounted iso's). All your gear needs to be HDMI 1.4 for this to work. I have it working for my systems, although I still have a couple of kinks.


TMT5 actually had support for my JVC mp4 files a while back (pulled directly from the camcorder into a folder on the computer), but it never worked properly for me. I could see the files were 3D, but they never triggered the projector's IR. I believe Frank had it working, using checkerboard. I haven't tried TMT7 (what happened to TMT6?). I'm thinking with the "almost working" solution in TMT5 (without their ever even touting it) it's a feature that's coming.


The "scan lines" you're seeing with the passive monitor are normal for that type of display in 3D mode. You have to sit back far enough for them not to be visible.


I suppose, if you had enough programming savvy, you might be able to create a batch file to convert the Sony 3D clips to 3D iso's, using Vegas, but that's just conjecture. I certainly couldn't do it.


----------



## Richard Adams

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* 
Richard,


What you're getting with PowerDVD 11 is a 2D to 3D conversion of the left eye view. It's no better than what many HDMI 1.4 TVs, such as the Samsungs, do when they convert 2D to 3D on the fly. It can be a pleasant diversion (which it was when there was virtually no 3D content), but it's not close to the real thing. PDVD 11 can play back 3D Blu-ray or virtual 3D Blu-ray discs (mounted iso's). All your gear needs to be HDMI 1.4 for this to work. I have it working for my systems, although I still have a couple of kinks.


TMT5 actually had support for my JVC mp4 files a while back (pulled directly from the camcorder into a folder on the computer), but it never worked properly for me. I could see the files were 3D, but they never triggered the projector's IR. I believe Frank had it working, using checkerboard. I haven't tried TMT7 (what happened to TMT6?). I'm thinking with the "almost working" solution in TMT5 (without their ever even touting it) it's a feature that's coming.


The "scan lines" you're seeing with the passive monitor are normal for that type of display in 3D mode. You have to sit back far enough for them not to be visible.


I suppose, if you had enough programming savvy, you might be able to create a batch file to convert the Sony 3D clips to 3D iso's, using Vegas, but that's just conjecture. I certainly couldn't do it.
Very helpful info on winding up with 2D to 3D instead of actual 3D. Also thanks for not blasting me for calling it TMT7 instead of 5.


I am sitting far enough back and these are much coarser than scan lines so I might have described it wrong. I was thinking it was due to insufficient processor power, as it only happens in a small section of the display where there was high motion rate. I was thinking of upgrading the video card soon if no PS3 solution for 3D files, though Stereoscopic Player is likely CPU intensive.


Have you compared Stereoscopic Player to Power DVD 11?


Have you got a blu-ray made with a 108060i from a JVC or Sony MVC to play as a PowerDVD iso, or only 1080p24 / 720p60 ?


----------



## Joseph Clark

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* 
Very helpful info on winding up with 2D to 3D instead of actual 3D. Also thanks for not blasting me for calling it TMT7 instead of 5.


I am sitting far enough back and these are much coarser than scan lines so I might have described it wrong. I was thinking it was due to insufficient processor power, as it only happens in a small section of the display where there was high motion rate. I was thinking of upgrading the video card soon if no PS3 solution for 3D files, though Stereoscopic Player is likely CPU intensive.


Have you compared Stereoscopic Player to Power DVD 11?


Have you got a blu-ray made with a 108060i from a JVC or Sony MVC to play as a PowerDVD iso, or only 1080p24 / 720p60 ?
I don't have Stereoscopic Player. I should.







Unfortunately, there's no 60i 3D Blu-ray spec. I'd love it if there were. The MVC files from my JVC look absolutely stunning played back on a 3D TV. Buttery smooth motion and incredible detail, color and contrast. It's a shame we can't maintain that 3D image quality from the camcorder to a disc. I'm hoping we see an AVCHD-like extension to 3D Blu-ray, where that's possible. If an editor had only to render the effects, then do a smart copy of the rest of the original footage, we wouldn't have to settle for the processing loss of going to 1080p24 or 720p60 3D Blu-ray. If there's enough demand, the CE companies will make it happen.


----------



## Richard Adams

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* 
I don't have Stereoscopic Player. I should.







Unfortunately, there's no 60i 3D Blu-ray spec. I'd love it if there were. The MVC files from my JVC look absolutely stunning played back on a 3D TV. Buttery smooth motion and incredible detail, color and contrast. It's a shame we can't maintain that 3D image quality from the camcorder to a disc. I'm hoping we see an AVCHD-like extension to 3D Blu-ray, where that's possible. If an editor had only to render the effects, then do a smart copy of the rest of the original footage, we wouldn't have to settle for the processing loss of going to 1080p24 or 720p60 3D Blu-ray. If there's enough demand, the CE companies will make it happen.
The limitation is HDMI, since although MVC can provide a bluray compliant data rate for 1080i60, HDMI, which is uncompressed, does not support that high a data rate for the two uncompressed channels we wind up with.


I recall that uncompressed 720p60 has half the bandwidth of uncompressed 1080i60. This is why 1080p24 is used on HDMI.


For those with JVC or Sony 3D camcorder connected directly to a 3D monitor, what is the rate (24 / 30 / 60) and pixel height (720 / 1080) that your monitor detects and reports on the display when doing direct playback?


----------



## Don Landis

Richard- I would use SBS full and turn on your setting for deinterlace filtering. I use a Vizio 32" Passive monitor here and that's the settings I use. There is no scan lines visible using this method with the 3D polarized glasses on. The displayed resolution with SBS Full is 540 x 1920 since the Passive monitor will cut the resolution of vertical in half. All passive monitors are incapable of the full HD resolution display today. Only active glasses monitors will do full resolution. But if properly set up the smaller screen sizes will yield fairly good results sitting up close. The 32" Vizio recommends 5 ft. minimum and I agree with that recommendation. With Passive monitors in >42" the resolution begins to fail in PQ and you will start to see severe aliasing (jaggies) on diagonal hard lines. Note- Broadcast will use SBS _half_ and this can result in 540 x 960 which can really be a downgrade on the larger screen sizes. Your 23" should be fine but you should use SBS full for best results.

My Vizio can do Top Bottom 3D but the cross talk is ugly so I don't use it. You should experiment with SBS vs. TB using full on both.


Note- I looked up your monitor and saw it does support Line Alternate input but I'm not sure if that has an advantage over SBS Full. I've never seen Line Alternate except on high end Broadcast monitors.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20704717
> 
> 
> Richard- I would use SBS full and turn on your setting for deinterlace filtering. I use a Vizio 32" Passive monitor here and that's the settings I use. There is no scan lines visible using this method with the 3D polarized glasses on. The displayed resolution with SBS Full is 540 x 1920 since the Passive monitor will cut the resolution of vertical in half. All passive monitors are incapable of the full HD resolution display today. Only active glasses monitors will do full resolution. But if properly set up the smaller screen sizes will yield fairly good results sitting up close. The 32" Vizio recommends 5 ft. minimum and I agree with that recommendation. With Passive monitors in >42" the resolution begins to fail in PQ and you will start to see severe aliasing (jaggies) on diagonal hard lines. Note- Broadcast will use SBS _half_ and this can result in 540 x 960 which can really be a downgrade on the larger screen sizes. Your 23" should be fine but you should use SBS full for best results.
> 
> My Vizio can do Top Bottom 3D but the cross talk is ugly so I don't use it. You should experiment with SBS vs. TB using full on both.
> 
> 
> Note- I looked up your monitor and saw it does support Line Alternate input but I'm not sure if that has an advantage over SBS Full. I've never seen Line Alternate except on high end Broadcast monitors.



Thanks Don you are correct. I did get Vegas 10d to output preview 3D playback full screen in both full SBS 1920 3840x1080 and also line alternate mode on the LG D2342P with theater RealD glasses.


My CPU is too weak to play the preview smoothly. I get audio with a frame of video every second or so. I recall this is entirely CPU limited for vegas, and note that the "stereoscopic player" software plays line alternate 3D with my CPU smoothly, but with some motion artifacts.


When I have more data, I'll update my summary of TD10 playback methods, and hope others will post similar results of the various successes.


When you connect your Sony HDR-TD10 to your 3D TV directly via HDMI, and playback a 3D recording, what does the onscreen display on your TV report as the frame rate and image pixels? I.e. is it 1080p24 from the TD10 to your TV? Can you tell me the frame rate and image pixels in "Auto" "Frame Packing" and Side by Side" modes?


Others also please chime in and tell us what your TV reports as well with the TD10 directly connected for 3D playback.


----------



## Don Landis

Richard- The TD10 is connected to my Vizio right now and it reports exactly what it should which is 1080 60i The Vizio seems to only support Frame Packing from my BluRay player in 24p. The TD10 doesn't do 24P and if I select Frame Packing in the TD10 menus the 3D picture is there but flashing horribly. So, I select SBS in the TD10 and it settles down to a nice clean picture. The Auto gets me the same result as the Frame Packing setting.


I could take the TD10 down to my Sony VW90ES projector and see what it does. I'll report back later with that for you.


FYI- I have not heard from anyone who can play MVC files in 3D on their computer in real time perfectly and continuously. I was planning to buy a $3k i7 990x 12 threaded CPU with ample memory buy put it off because it is not yet reported able to play the timeline in Vegas satisfactorily. The 990x is the most powerful CPU tested for Vegas on the market. It is also the most expensive. If it can't do it, I sit and wait for a machine that will. What most of us have been doing is reserve some ram for previewing short chunks of the timeline to test transitions and motion in real time. Review Dynamic RAM preview in the help file on how to use this. It's the best option we have until faster CPU's are available. As I've stated before, I'm not interested in previewing clips as I can do that direct from the camcorder now via hdmi. I want to preview sections of the timeline or entire timeline to evaluate story flow.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20707254
> 
> 
> Richard- The TD10 is connected to my Vizio right now and it reports exactly what it should which is 1080 60i The Vizio seems to only support Frame Packing from my BluRay player in 24p. The TD10 doesn't do 24P and if I select Frame Packing in the TD10 menus the 3D picture is there but flashing horribly. So, I select SBS in the TD10 and it settles down to a nice clean picture. The Auto gets me the same result as the Frame Packing setting.
> 
> 
> I could take the TD10 down to my Sony VW90ES projector and see what it does. I'll report back later with that for you.
> 
> 
> FYI- I have not heard from anyone who can play MVC files in 3D on their computer in real time perfectly and continuously. I was planning to buy a $3k i7 990x 12 threaded CPU with ample memory buy put it off because it is not yet reported able to play the timeline in Vegas satisfactorily. The 990x is the most powerful CPU tested for Vegas on the market. It is also the most expensive. If it can't do it, I sit and wait for a machine that will. What most of us have been doing is reserve some ram for previewing short chunks of the timeline to test transitions and motion in real time. Review Dynamic RAM preview in the help file on how to use this. It's the best option we have until faster CPU's are available. As I've stated before, I'm not interested in previewing clips as I can do that direct from the camcorder now via hdmi. I want to preview sections of the timeline or entire timeline to evaluate story flow.



Thanks for the info on the Vizio, and yes please let me know if you can get Frame Packing output from the TD10, and what the monitor displays as the rate and image particulars for that. Other please chime in with your results.


It seems to me that if Sony incorporated the techniques of "stereoscopic player," which plays smoothly on my older system, for timeline playback, the fuss for a better CPU would be mitigated. I wonder if Sony developers get smooth playback, and what sort of workstation they developed this on.


----------



## achillies000

Indeed, the Sony supplied (in the box) USB adapter cable that has the female USB on one end is needed to get the TD10 to talk to external storage devices, while the gray Sony supplied cable is for connecting to PCs, where the TD10 behaves like a storage / media source device.


Using the correct cable, I tried a SIIG model JU-SA0912-S1 USB enclosure with a WD Scorpio Blue WD25000BEVT drive inside, and the Sony TD10 would neither power it nor recognize this when I used external power. It did work with a notebook computer connected in between, and the TD10 again in Mass Storage Mode with the grey Sony cable hotfile .


Using the Sony cable with the female USB, the TD10 did recognize various USB flash drives, including Micro SD to USB adapters. Good to hear that an older Passport Drive worked too. I'll give that a try. Thanks Don.


Excellent point about the PS3. That would be a Grey cable connection to the TD10. The PS3 also has a free Sony supplied video editor feature, which can make an easy upload to youtube. Has that editor been tried with TD10 MVC-3D?


Icerat4 shared with us that the newer Passport SE that has USB 3.0 and 2.0 does work. Has anyone conducted speed tests to see if the newer Passport version drive, that allows USB 3.0, works any faster than the older version that only does USB 2.0, while the drive is used in USB 2.0 mode, for example with the TD10 which is only USB 2.0?


----------



## Don Landis

I heard about some video editor in the PS3 but have not looked at it. I think it is a free download. to be honest- I have been a contract editor for broadcast TV for over 20 years and knowing how the professional products work, I just can't stand to work in the often backward, restricted, environment of these toys. Time is too precious and these toys, even Vegas Media Studio have limitations that can raise my blood pressure. Having said that I am always curious to learn from others how they work, so give it a try and let us know.



> Quote:
> It seems to me that if Sony incorporated the techniques of "stereoscopic player," which plays smoothly on my older system, for timeline playback, the fuss for a better CPU would be mitigated. I wonder if Sony developers get smooth playback, and what sort of workstation they developed this on.



Richard- are you aware of how Vegas works the timeline? It does not work with original files but has to create proxies for display on the fly from the raw source video. Then as you manipulate the timeline with instructions, these are saved out to the data file called a VEG script. All this takes CPU power. The 3D MVC files have additional steps that need additional horsepower to put on the timeline. A right eye image must be calculated and paired with the left eye for display in 3D. The design concept of Vegas editor is to keep the process non-destructive and avoid the need to do background rendering ( although you can do that is you wish) If you ever spent any time with editors like FCP Avid and others you would know that their process has many disadvantages in this area which can slow down the editing process. But once the editing process is finished, the review is like playing a single completed file. Point is that the vegas design of editing with proxies and scripting an instruction set for the rendering will always require CPU power and more as the tasks we give it are increased.

Also, not only is CPU power needed to constantly compute the editing changes for the preview but also the hard drive throughput must be adequate as well to keep the display buffers filled for real time playback.


As a point of comparison- I was working in FCP a couple years ago and performing a simple dissolve between an MOV file and an AVI (DVCAM) file. In FCP I stuck them on the timeline and overlaped them for a 1 second dissolve and the Macbook Pro halted my progress in editing and began to background render in 5 minutes, I got a message that the ETA of the 1 second dissolve would be complete in 6 hours! I shut down, switched to Vegas using Parallels on the Mac and stuck the same two, MOV and avi files on the timeline viewed the playback and moved on. No file conversion, no background rendering to a new MOV file, just pure work flow. What Sony wanted to do ( actually it was Sonic Foundry who came up with the Vegas design) was to eliminate the need to transcode all files to a common format and then background render all the effects and transitions to an additional clip DURING the edit process. This saves much time in editing with a single gotcha... If your computer isn't up to speed, the preview of a complex proxy will not keep up. So, Vegas offered an option to do a preview render in a couple different ways and that is what we are up against with 3D MVC today.

I seriously doubt Sony will ever change the fundamental architecture back to an antiquated system like is used by FCP just to have a way to view the timeline of an extremely robust process in real time but suffering the wait during the editing process with each change. Basically, were at a point in state of the art where MVC has exceeded the processing power of the most powerful consumer computer. I trust that soon intel will shift the advantage back to the hardware. Just not today.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20709364
> 
> 
> I heard about some video editor in the PS3 but have not looked at it. I think it is a free download. to be honest- I have been a contract editor for broadcast TV for over 20 years and knowing how the professional products work, I just can't stand to work in the often backward, restricted, environment of these toys. Time is too precious and these toys, even Vegas Media Studio have limitations that can raise my blood pressure. Having said that I am always curious to learn from others how they work, so give it a try and let us know.



I downloaded the free PS3 editor and used it on 24mbit 720p H264 about a year ago. The output was glitch free though it was down sampled in both audio and video to a greatly reduced quality bit rate and resolution, "intended for posting on social networking sites," according to the Sony literature. It included a feature to share / upload the result to Facebook I recall. There was no option to recover the original bit rate and resolution of audio or video.


In this regard, the Sony PS3 editor is akin to what the Sony Vegas editor does, in that both limit output bit rates to less than then source signal. Vegas does have much more flexibility than the PS3 editor, since the PS3 editor was a cut and render/down-sample editor only.


Don, your practical knowledge and experience with the tools you do know how to use and share here are extremely helpful. You're one of the most help people I've come to know.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20709364
> 
> 
> Richard- are you aware of how Vegas works the timeline?



Yes. In the instance of a single edit cut, with nothing else going on, it is disappointing that the Vegas architecture is unable to produce a preview which is like what the result will be. It is surprising that apparently no typical user's computer is powerful enough to give a smooth preview. This is not a good selling point.


"Hand waving," is offered to bloviate as to why you think people should accept this. It's acceptability is diminshed when there are other tools that do offer a smooth preview, though Vegas does have a few 3D advantages over the others today.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20707254
> 
> 
> I could take the TD10 down to my Sony VW90ES projector and see what it does. I'll report back later with that for you.



More so than the discussion about editors, and closer to the topic of this thread, I 'd really like to hear the results for that. Via direct HDMI output from your Sony HDR-TD10, can you use SBS or frame packing or both for 3D on your Sony projector?


----------



## Don Landis

I should have something on the VW90ES tonight. Got sidetracked last evening and didn't get to it.



> Quote:
> Yes. In the instance of a single edit cut, with nothing else going on, it is disappointing that the Vegas architecture is unable to produce a preview which is like what the result will be. It is surprising that apparently no typical user's computer is powerful enough to give a smooth preview. This is not a good selling point.



Actually, this is not entirely true. The only current problem I have with consumer HD content is viewing MVC clips edited in the timeline. AVCHD and MPEG2, MP4 all play in real time, in fact my computer was originally designed to handle the data flow of two HD clips from a single raid ) drive set and plat back at full 29.97 fps including some text titles overlay. If I added a third HD clip as in a PIP edit it would begin to get bogged down. This is with no prerendering or Dynamic Ram preview. So, for a short time as I stated, we have Vegas ahead of the hardware for capability in realtime playback for 3D MVC. This is not surprising at all when you understand what is actually going on with Vegas, MVC and it's timeline editing process per second. I accept this because I'm a realist, not a pipe dreamer. I've never had hardware nor software available to me at my fingertips for what I wanted to pay when I wanted it. It has always been a game of wait for the technology to catch up to our wishlist. Just because at Disney " If You Can Dream It comes true" , doesn't mean it will come true today.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20711149
> 
> 
> I should have something on the VW90ES tonight. Got sidetracked last evening and didn't get to it.
> 
> 
> Actually, this is not entirely true. The only current problem I have with consumer HD content is viewing MVC clips edited in the timeline. AVCHD and MPEG2, MP4 all play in real time, in fact my computer was originally designed to handle the data flow of two HD clips from a single raid ) drive set and plat back at full 29.97 fps including some text titles overlay. If I added a third HD clip as in a PIP edit it would begin to get bogged down. This is with no prerendering or Dynamic Ram preview. So, for a short time as I stated, we have Vegas ahead of the hardware for capability in realtime playback for 3D MVC. This is not surprising at all when you understand what is actually going on with Vegas, MVC and it's timeline editing process per second. I accept this because I'm a realist, not a pipe dreamer. I've never had hardware nor software available to me at my fingertips for what I wanted to pay when I wanted it. It has always been a game of wait for the technology to catch up to our wishlist. Just because at Disney " If You Can Dream It comes true" , doesn't mean it will come true today.



Thanks Don. That puts a reasonable perspective on it. Looking forward to your results.


----------



## Don Landis

I pulled up the VW90ES menu and saw the signal was SBS 1080 60i from the TD10 when 3D was set to auto. I put the TD10 in Frame Packing mode and the projector could not work with that. So auto or SBS is it for output. I want to perform one more test but when my wife heard I was looking at stuff I shot she grabbed some glasses and is now watching all my 3D clips on the camcorder.

I also got to switch the TD10 to 2D while playing the 3D clips and the output was pretty high quality and very smooth. Checked the projector and the signal was 1080 60p.


----------



## djdiogo

Hi all, greets from Brazil!!!


Any of you guys tried editing with lastest Canopus Edius 6.03


This update was just released and says that will support new sony codec... lets check out!


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20711735
> 
> 
> I pulled up the VW90ES menu and saw the signal was SBS 1080 60i from the TD10 when 3D was set to auto. I put the TD10 in Frame Packing mode and the projector could not work with that. So auto or SBS is it for output. I want to perform one more test but when my wife heard I was looking at stuff I shot she grabbed some glasses and is now watching all my 3D clips on the camcorder.
> 
> I also got to switch the TD10 to 2D while playing the 3D clips and the output was pretty high quality and very smooth. Checked the projector and the signal was 1080 60p.



Thanks for running the tests Don.


Regarding the report of 1080p60 with 2D mode of 3D recorded material, since the 3D clips are 60i, I wonder if it was the projector or the camcorder that converted from 60i from 60p.


The next question - *does anyone get the frame packing mode of the TD10 direct output working with their monitor?* If so which type of monitor?


----------



## TomWheeler

I do not believe that Edius 6.03 supports ingesting footage in the MVC format from the Sony HDR-TD10. I have asked that question, however, on the Edius forum just to be sure. Edius 6.03 says that it supports the Sony AVC format, but that is quite different than the Sony MVC format. I believe that Vegas Pro 10 is the only NLE supporting ingestion of Sony HDR-TD10 clips.


Tom


----------



## 3Dmadman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20703525
> 
> 
> There is an issue for me during playback that occasionally there is an aberration in the motion where the part of the screen in motion has decreased interline resolution, and I see scan lines. This may be a unique way that my setup is acting to not having enough CPU or graphics power. Does anyone observe motion artifacts with that player and TD10 files?



Richard,

Make sure and go to File, Video Properties, click on the settings tab, check the "Interlaced Video(deinterlacing required) checkbox.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Regarding the report of 1080p60 with 2D mode of 3D recorded material, since the 3D clips are 60i, I wonder if it was the projector or the camcorder that converted from 60i from 60p.



It is done in the camcorder because that is where you set the output for 2D 1080 60p. It also shows up in the VW90ES menu that way as to what the format of the input signal is. And yes, I still wonder about that. Seems to me it should be 30P but that is not what the camcorder says and not what the monitor / projector says. If I switch the output to 60i the projector menu screen says 1080 60i too.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3Dmadman* /forum/post/20714544
> 
> 
> Richard,
> 
> Make sure and go to File, Video Properties, click on the settings tab, check the "Interlaced Video(deinterlacing required) checkbox.



Thanks for that suggestion. That selection is made after a video file is loaded. I am going to study the result of that selection further, while the below setting seemed to make a lot of difference.


In the >file >settings >advanced options >troubleshooting tab -


- I found the "disable hardware accelerated video decoding" check box had defaulted to "checked", so I had no "hardware acceleration".


I unchecked this box and this made a huge difference whereby the artifacts I previously saw and posted about then went away.


Not sure if this is because the player then used the hardware acceleration in the CPU (E8500 core2duo) or in the Graphics card (Nvidia 8500GT), or both. This option is available before loading a video file and stays in effect after being un-check, while the de-interlace option is selectable for the file that is loaded.


So far the *Stereoscopic Player is giving me the best results* for easy and smooth 3D playback of my original .mts *(no rendering or burning to blurau needed)* from the Sony HDR-TD10 3D MVC played on the PC connected to my 23" LG D2342P passive monitor with ordinary 3D glasses from the theater, that were transferred from the camera with the fast USB mass storage mode rather than PMB. Haven't tried this with a PMB transferred file yet.


Note - I am not connected with any company nor received any compensation related to the products I am describing on AVS forum for 3D camcorders and playback.


----------



## MediaWarrior309

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
But even with that bug, VMS v11 is quite stable and has none of the problems you and Richard are suggesting.
Well, here it is a couple weeks later, and I'm still having MASSIVE problems. I've re-installed everything (PMB/SVMS11), and have recaptured everything with PMB, and still, I cannot render anything with a 3D source file. Constant crashes, locking up, etc...


Just trying to do a 1 minute, 15 second clip (3D source) and rendering to ANYTHING fails. If I try to render to wmv, it crashes almost immediately after hitting OK/save. Some of the other file formats last a little longer (got a few minutes in, and up to 25% or so complete, until .mp4 and aac/avc's crashed).


I've tried troubleshooting to the extent of eliminating/changing all the variables I can think of (i.e. - audio changes such as 5.1 to 2.0, or keeping at 5.1; different file formats, bit-rates, moving everything else off of timeline, etc...) - nothing seems to work.


I'm gonna have to raise hell with Sony and get my money back. This totally sucks having a camera that produces beautiful 3D video, and no way to publish any of it to the web in the formats I need, due to the software not living up to the promise.


----------



## Don Landis

The variable here is not the Sony software, the variable is your computer not being stable enough to handle really robust applications in it's present condition. Think about it. If the software was really at fault, all of us using it would be experiencing trouble. We don't have the problem but I bet if we had your same computer we surely would be experiencing the crashes too. I've offered some hints on where to look but not being an expert on these problems, I don't know what to suggest based on your information.


----------



## Don Landis

Back on topic-


Got into a shoot today on my road trip that required I switch to 2D mode!


I kind of figured it was not going to be good in 3D anyway considering the subject was going to be podium talks. But I planned to do it in 3D anyway just because I can and if necessary I would edit and render to 2D later on. Unfortunately, the man in charge moved the podium to a new position so that my video was now completely backlit. Ugh! Nothing ever goes as planned. So at the last second, I moved the camera and switched to 2D mode just to gain access to the manual iris and manual exposure settings, then also manual focus to rack the speaker from him forward to the camera so as to fuzz out the background. No 3D but I got the shot. Then about 20 minutes into the program the PA system got all distorted so the sound was like crap. If there weren't so many guest speakers ( I was one of them) I would have used my BT wireless mic but no time to fiddle switch over to that. Now since I had to move the camera to the middle of the audience for the new location, the tripod was not protected. I haven't looked yet but keeping the video rolling I think my camera got bumped by someone and it looked like it chopped off my head for my entire talk.










Other than that the sightseeing part of the trip worked out well although brutally hot in Washington DC. Got a close up of VP Biden entering the rear of the Whitehouse for the Saturday 11AM budget meeting. He waved but it is hard to see him through the dark glass of the Limo. The rest of the day was spent sightseeing and shooting 3D at the Smithsonian. It will be the subject of my next YT video in 3D.


Planning a relaxing return trip and will begin the editing process on Wednesday.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
Back on topic-


Got into a shoot today on my road trip that required I switch to 2D mode!


I kind of figured it was not going to be good in 3D anyway considering the subject was going to be podium talks. But I planned to do it in 3D anyway just because I can and if necessary I would edit and render to 2D later on. Unfortunately, the man in charge moved the podium to a new position so that my video was now completely backlit. Ugh! Nothing ever goes as planned. So at the last second, I moved the camera and switched to 2D mode just to gain access to the manual iris and manual exposure settings, then also manual focus to rack the speaker from him forward to the camera so as to fuzz out the background. No 3D but I got the shot. Then about 20 minutes into the program the PA system got all distorted so the sound was like crap. If there weren't so many guest speakers ( I was one of them) I would have used my BT wireless mic but no time to fiddle switch over to that. Now since I had to move the camera to the middle of the audience for the new location, the tripod was not protected. I haven't looked yet but keeping the video rolling I think my camera got bumped by someone and it looked like it chopped off my head for my entire talk.










Other than that the sightseeing part of the trip worked out well although brutally hot in Washington DC. Got a close up of VP Biden entering the rear of the Whitehouse for the Saturday 11AM budget meeting. He waved but it is hard to see him through the dark glass of the Limo. The rest of the day was spent sightseeing and shooting 3D at the Smithsonian. It will be the subject of my next YT video in 3D.


Planning a relaxing return trip and will begin the editing process on Wednesday.
Looking forward to that, Don. I haven't been to DC since 03. I had a great time at the Smithsonian Museums. One of the highlights of the trip for me was the 3 or 4 3D movies I saw there.







It was also the last time I was able to take a trip with my Godfather, before he became too ill to travel, so it will always be a trip I remember very fondly.


----------



## Don Landis

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark*
Looking forward to that, Don. I haven't been to DC since 03. I had a great time at the Smithsonian Museums. One of the highlights of the trip for me was the 3 or 4 3D movies I saw there.







It was also the last time I was able to take a trip with my Godfather, before he became too ill to travel, so it will always be a trip I remember very fondly.
Shot the room with all the cardboard pop out books, that will make for an interesting 3D short. Lots of other sections too.


----------



## MediaWarrior309




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20736285
> 
> 
> The variable here is not the Sony software, the variable is your computer not being stable enough to handle really robust applications in it's present condition. Think about it. If the software was really at fault, all of us using it would be experiencing trouble. We don't have the problem but I bet if we had your same computer we surely would be experiencing the crashes too. I've offered some hints on where to look but not being an expert on these problems, I don't know what to suggest based on your information.



I greatly appreciate the information you've offered, as well as on the other thread about 3D editing. I have learned a great deal from your informative posts on both the hardware AND software side of 3D.


However, having said that, I must still disagree with your assessment above. My hardware is an i7 870, with 12 GB RAM. My hard drive space is more than sufficient... source files are held on a 1TB drive, with around 700GB free, and the destination for rendered files is a 300 GB external with 200 GB free. The C drive is a 1TB, and has 690 GB free. I've been EXTREMELY careful to not get any bloatware on this machine. It is only 9 months old, and has successfully done several HUGE projects with processor intensive tasks (things with multi-camera, high bit-rate, combining source files with diff bit rates, diff aspect ratios, length (2+ hour projects), complex graphics, etc....). It has never had a hiccup. Only now, with the 3D is it giving me problems.


I get what you're saying... that you should be experiencing a problem too, if it were a software issue, however, I *DO* see lots of other people having the same problems (crashing/closing during render).


I had some clips edited (source file, text overlay/copyright watermark) on my timeline, with just some minor edits (1 second crossfade at certain split points, fade in/out, etc...). I divided it up into 3 different cilps/regions. Normally, in pro 9, I would batch render these, but in SVMS11, obviously that option isn't there. So, I highlighted each region one at a time and rendered (or attempted to, rather). The first one, took about 10 tries before I finally got a 6Mbps 720/30p wmv 60 second clip made. Obviously 10 tries, with crashing, reboots, etc... this ended up taking several hours, when it really should've only taken about 5 minutes. Then, the 2nd clip, I NEVER got to work... tried 6 and 8 mbps wmv, tried avi YUV, tried mp4, aac, etc... NOTHING would ever work on that clip, it just wanted to crash no matter what I did. On the third, I tried a bunch until finally I got a 1080p AVI to work. This 60 second clip ended up being a ridiculous 7 GB. So, obviously I cannot use that for my business (publishing this content to a website). Then, after I deleted this 7 GB file, I tried to get the same region rendered as a wmv (as I successfully did after 10 tries for region 1). However, no dice with clip 3. Same settings as what I used for region 1, and yet region 3 just kept locking up, crashing, etc... over and over.


So, given that my hardware is sufficient, and that many others are having the same problem, I think it's fair to say that the software is at a minimum partially to blame. If there WERE some kind of hardware issue, it should be able to tell me what it is. This is really getting old, as I was really counting on this for my business to take the next step and evolve and now I'm getting nowhere. Got tons of beautiful video from a pretty incredible camera, and can't do anything with it. Ugh.


----------



## JohnSchultz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MediaWarrior309* /forum/post/20737168
> 
> 
> I get what you're saying... that you should be experiencing a problem too, if it were a software issue, however, I *DO* see lots of other people having the same problems (crashing/closing during render).
> 
> 
> So, given that my hardware is sufficient, and that many others are having the same problem, I think it's fair to say that the software is at a minimum partially to blame. If there WERE some kind of hardware issue, it should be able to tell me what it is. This is really getting old, as I was really counting on this for my business to take the next step and evolve and now I'm getting nowhere. Got tons of beautiful video from a pretty incredible camera, and can't do anything with it. Ugh.



You might give MVCtoAVI and Cineform Neo a try to allow faster and more reliable editing (preserve interlace when converting). For final de-interlaced render, folks are reporting good results with the free yadif plugin for Vegas.


If budget allows, Premiere Pro CS5.5 is a much faster and more stable platform (free trial is available). PPro CS5.5 + MVCtoAVI + Neo = decent 3D production workflow for TD10 footage.


----------



## MediaWarrior309




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JohnSchultz* /forum/post/20738724
> 
> 
> You might give MVCtoAVI and Cineform Neo a try to allow faster and more reliable editing (preserve interlace when converting). For final de-interlaced render, folks are reporting good results with the free yadif plugin for Vegas.



I will google those options and see if I can find more information. If you have any specific places in mind to point me in the right direction, please let me know. Thanks!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JohnSchultz* /forum/post/20738724
> 
> 
> If budget allows, Premiere Pro CS5.5 is a much faster and more stable platform (free trial is available). PPro CS5.5 + MVCtoAVI + Neo = decent 3D production workflow for TD10 footage.



I'm going to make sure I exhaust all options with Vegas before having to learn a whole new system. But thanks for the advice, nonetheless.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JohnSchultz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> You might give MVCtoAVI and Cineform Neo a try to allow faster and more reliable editing (preserve interlace when converting). For final de-interlaced render, folks are reporting good results with the free yadif plugin for Vegas.
> 
> 
> If budget allows, Premiere Pro CS5.5 is a much faster and more stable platform (free trial is available). PPro CS5.5 + MVCtoAVI + Neo = decent 3D production workflow for TD10 footage.



John if CS 5.5 PPro is so much better than Vegas, why would anyone want to work with Vegas for 3D? All I hear is how great it is and how awful Vegas is for others. (I don't share that as Vegas works quite well for me). What is the downside?



Media warrior. I don't have an answer for you. I agree that way too many people are having stability problems with Vegas yet I seem to be free from these. If the hardware is perfect, and there is plenty of hard drive space, plus you have not contaminated your system with bloatware and other stuff that makes the hardware unstable, then you do not fit the common profile I see in these threads. So, what is the difference in how I work vs how you work? Maybe it is work flow? Do you do things that are not the SOP? Many here are doing things improperly and then blaming Sony for their troubles? Most common one as of late is bypassing the PMB and working with raw MTS files from the TD10. Another is not using the format process in the TD10 and formatting SD media with a computer. I have a list of the common errors made by those who think they are smarter and don't need to learn the proper way or use the correct work flow. A common complaint about Vegas is that it is difficult to learn, and I agree with those complaints. I don't have that problem because I grew with Vegas and I attend the classes on advanced methods taught by Sony staff each year. But when I work with people and observe their work flow with Vegas I sometimes catch errors that generate their problems. all I can suggest for you is to not repeat same pro desire over and over and expect different results. Break down your project and determine where the block is that causes the failure. I spent a whole day working with dozens of trial tests to determine where the problem was with the 5.1 error in 10d. Fact was that everyone who followed the exact process that generated the error could observe it. Those who deviated thought the error didn't exist. Once Sony understood there was a problem they fixed it in 10e. Maybe there is a stability issue that causes the crash but no one has given me a complete workflow that generates the problem consistently. In other words I can't reproduce the failure. T


----------



## JohnSchultz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20742245
> 
> 
> John if CS 5.5 PPro is so much better than Vegas, why would anyone want to work with Vegas for 3D? All I hear is how great it is and how awful Vegas is for others. (I don't share that as Vegas works quite well for me). What is the downside?



The Vegas Movie Studio line is low cost- that could be one reason to use Vegas for 3D. The time savings and disk space savings of editing MVC natively is a huge reason (that's primarily why I bought Vegas Pro). Are you happy with the 60i to 24p performance? The (moving) image quality is low and the motion is very choppy compared to PPro/AE (and the free yadif plugin for Vegas). If Vegas is fast & stable enough for your projects (do you get continuous real-time performance?), the yadif plugin might bring the quality up closer to PPro/AE.


Cineform Neo is only $170 to upgrade if you already have Neoscene. MVCtoAVI is ~$70. A bit of cost and extra work, however after the initial prep work, editing is fluid real-time and the final 60i to 24p render looks great. After loading the intermediate codec (Cineform, etc.) left/right files into Vegas Pro, performance is decent and 3D titles can be added and the final full 3D HD BD burn can be performed (using MVCtoAVI with Neoscene (~$100) or Matrox I-Frame HD (free) might also be a way to improve stability and performance for 3D editing with Vegas).


----------



## HarpuaFSB




> Quote:
> Cineform Neo is only $170 to upgrade if you already have Neoscene. MVCtoAVI is ~$70. A bit of cost and extra work, however after the initial prep work, editing is fluid real-time and the final 60i to 24p render looks great. After loading the intermediate codec (Cineform, etc.) left/right files into Vegas Pro, performance is decent and 3D titles can be added and the final full 3D HD BD burn can be performed (using MVCtoAVI with Neoscene (~$100) or Matrox I-Frame HD (free) might also be a way to improve stability and performance for 3D editing with Vegas).



What exactly is the workflow with PPro and 3D files? I'm much more comfortable using PPro than Vegas but I thought you could only edit MVC using Vegas Pro 10.0d and up.


Do I have it kind of right?


MVCtoAVI converts the MVC file to an AVI which can be edited in PPro as L/R. You then render out the L / R files separately from PPro and import them into Vegas Pro as separate files and then do a 3D HD BD burn from there by setting the project properties to stereoscopic 3D/Blend?


----------



## iWATCH3D

Anybody upgraded to 10.0e already ? One thing I spotted straight away is when in burn BD disc option, the burn from pre-rendered iso file option has dissapeared







No render and burn either







Just "render now" and probably it burns it right away too, as the drive parameters are grayed out ... WTF







Is Sony doing what FCP X done to old FCP users -upgrading by reducing the amount of features it can do ?


----------



## JohnSchultz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HarpuaFSB* /forum/post/20742487
> 
> 
> What exactly is the workflow with PPro and 3D files? I'm much more comfortable using PPro than Vegas but I thought you could only edit MVC using Vegas Pro 10.0d and up.
> 
> 
> Do I have it kind of right?
> 
> 
> MVCtoAVI converts the MVC file to an AVI which can be edited in PPro as L/R. You then render out the L / R files separately from PPro and import them into Vegas Pro as separate files and then do a 3D HD BD burn from there by setting the project properties to stereoscopic 3D/Blend?



Right- Vegas supports native MVC editing, PPro does not.


While it is technically possible to edit L+R files in PPro in 3D (side by side) without Neo, it's a bit of work to set up for each clip (less work if using AE, but not realtime). You can copy the 3DGlasses plugin from AE to PPro and try that first to see if that workflow works for you (still more work vs. Neo but lower cost).


Since you can batch process with MVCtoAVI as well as Neo, the process is somewhat automated. Once you have your Neo AVI files (which contain both L+R files multiplexed ('MUXed') together), you can edit very quickly, with real-time transitions, etc. Once the cut is finished, you can render out L+R as [email protected] and bring into Vegas for 3D titles, fine parallax control, and final 3D BD Render. You can also do advanced work with titles and effects in AE (has a 3D camera rig, etc.). Once the files are in L+R AVI (as well as a single Neo AVI), they can also be edited on the Mac (with appropriate QT components, can read AVI directly, else Neo can rewrap to MOV container).


Another benefit of PPro and GPU accel: real-time rendering speed for the final renders (vs. 6-10x slower than realtime for Vegas (on my 12 Core Quadro 5000 hardware)).


----------



## HarpuaFSB




> Quote:
> Since you can batch process with MVCtoAVI as well as Neo, the process is somewhat automated. Once you have your Neo AVI files (which contain both L+R files multiplexed ('MUXed') together), you can edit very quickly, with real-time transitions, etc. Once the cut is finished, you can render out L+R as [email protected] and bring into Vegas for 3D titles, fine parallax control, and final 3D BD Render. You can also do advanced work with titles and effects in AE (has a 3D camera rig, etc.). Once the files are in L+R AVI (as well as a single Neo AVI), they can also be edited on the Mac (with appropriate QT components, can read AVI directly, else Neo can rewrap to MOV container).



So let me get this straight. MVCtoAVI takes an MVC encoded file and splits them into separate L/R AVI files which you can then bring into PPro and edit like you would any video file. You would then render out two separate files (L/R) from PPro and then add the L/R files into Vegas and select the project's stereoscopic mode to blend. Is that the correct flow using MVCtoAVI to edit outside of Vegas?


And the difference between MVCtoAVI and Neo Cineform 3D is that Neo takes an MVC file and converts it into a single AVI file where the L+R are combined into that single file? Do you then render out one single AVI file from PPro which Vegas will recognize as two separate channels for 3D?


Thanks.


----------



## JohnSchultz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HarpuaFSB* /forum/post/20743314
> 
> 
> So let me get this straight. MVCtoAVI takes an MVC encoded file and splits them into separate L/R AVI files which you can then bring into PPro and edit like you would any video file. You would then render out two separate files (L/R) from PPro and then add the L/R files into Vegas and select the project's stereoscopic mode to blend. Is that the correct flow using MVCtoAVI to edit outside of Vegas?
> 
> 
> And the difference between MVCtoAVI and Neo Cineform 3D is that Neo takes an MVC file and converts it into a single AVI file where the L+R are combined into that single file? Do you then render out one single AVI file from PPro which Vegas will recognize as two separate channels for 3D?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Yes.


For MVCtoAVI and PPro - you can copy the 3DGlasses plugin from AE into PPro's plugin directory (without Neo or Neoscene; can use Matrox I-Frame HD codec (free)). You'll add both L+R videos to the sequence and add the 3D Glasses effect to the top track (can add to either), then select tracks as needed in the Effects Controls. You can now edit in side-by-side, interleaved, anaglyph, etc. When you are finished editing, you render out the left and right separately as [email protected] (using Cineform, Matrox I-frame HD, etc.) and bring into Vegas for 3D titles and final 3D BD render. If you need side-by-side for youtube, etc., you can render directly from PPro (perhaps do titles with Dynamic Link and AE).


If using Neo, Cineform states it is compatible with Vegas (haven't tried it). However, you'll want to render out the L+R files separately from PPro (and recombine in Vegas) as PPro/AE's 60i to 24p is superior to Vegas.


EDIT: Good news- Vegas renders the 3D Neo files in (almost) real-time (helpful for those having issues with MVC native and wishing to stay in Vegas (and looking for closer to real-time performance. PPro is faster than real-time). Neo supports rendering 3D Intermediate from PPro. Did a quick test and it won't render (does nothing- looks like a bug; tested on CS5 and CS5.5). Will check with Cineform. Once fixed (or workaround known), will be another useful option.


EDIT2: Cineform tech support suggested running their "Register Components" batch file: fixed all the issues (the issue appears to be with their installer). Tested a Neo file with Vegas- it works (near real-time; faster than MVC native, not as fast as PPro (real-time)).


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JohnSchultz* /forum/post/20742422
> 
> 
> The Vegas Movie Studio line is low cost- that could be one reason to use Vegas for 3D. The time savings and disk space savings of editing MVC natively is a huge reason (that's primarily why I bought Vegas Pro). Are you happy with the 60i to 24p performance? The (moving) image quality is low and the motion is very choppy compared to PPro/AE (and the free yadif plugin for Vegas). If Vegas is fast & stable enough for your projects (do you get continuous real-time performance?), the yadif plugin might bring the quality up closer to PPro/AE.
> 
> 
> Cineform Neo is only $170 to upgrade if you already have Neoscene. MVCtoAVI is ~$70. A bit of cost and extra work, however after the initial prep work, editing is fluid real-time and the final 60i to 24p render looks great. After loading the intermediate codec (Cineform, etc.) left/right files into Vegas Pro, performance is decent and 3D titles can be added and the final full 3D HD BD burn can be performed (using MVCtoAVI with Neoscene (~$100) or Matrox I-Frame HD (free) might also be a way to improve stability and performance for 3D editing with Vegas).



Thanks for the details on this, John. In my case I am very pleased with the stability and bug fixes of 10e. 10d was admittedly a bag of bugs. But I have no complaints with 10e in that respect. As for 24p rendering, I agree it doesn't look great with any constant motion in the shot so I have pretty much restricted all my action projects to the 720p x 1280 rendering. It looks good enough for family documentaries. If Vegas ever fixes the quality then I may re-render the project for a higher resolution. But, I would really prefer to have 1080 60p 1920 on bluray. I don't need film frame rates to be a happy camper.


----------



## markr041

Museum in Palm Beach. Dimly lit rooms with both incandescent lights and window light are a real challenge for video. Was the TD10 up to the task? All shot using wide-angle, as required for getting room shots. No large interaxials needed here.


----------



## JohnSchultz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20746932
> 
> 
> Museum in Palm Beach. Dimly lit rooms with both incandescent lights and window light are a real challenge for video. Was the TD10 up to the task? All shot using wide-angle, as required for getting room shots. No large interaxials needed here.



Looks pretty good- noise levels are decent for low light.

The TD10 held up really well in very low light (including with shifting light-source colors): 



 (looks like Just Dance 3 is going to be a big hit).


----------



## Don Landis

Mark when necessary, I used the little Sony Accessory light that plugs into the hot shoe. Many exhibits in the museum were not up to video quality light but that little accessory was good enough to just push things over the noise level. Model HVL- HL1 It has an auto mode that shuts the light off when there is adequate light, goes to max brightness in dark, and stays off when not needed. These hot shore accessories are really great, The only bad thing is you can only use one at a time. If I wanted to use the light and wireless mic, I'm SOL!


In reviewing your linked video that little light would have made a huge difference in the shots like your opening ones with a vase or other object in the foreground that was front shadowed. In large empty rooms it would not have made a difference.


----------



## markr041

Thanks Don and John for the comments and suggestions. I think the TD10 does pretty well in low light, with little noise and not much of a hit on resolution (smearing).


This museum had very strict rules - in addition to no lights or flash, gum-chewing was explcitly prohibited! I used manual exposure throughout - if a room was dim I deliberately made the video dim - I don't believe in jacking up the gain to simulate a bright room. Rather I wanted to reproduce what the visitor would experience.


That Sony "smart" light seems like a useful, and inexpensive, accessory for providing fill-light. The Sony active shoe seems to be quite useful, and undervalued.


----------



## Don Landis

Mark- I understand about the light rules in some locations. Fortunately, there were no rules That I saw at the Smithsonian. ( MY rule- easier to say I'm sorry than to ask for permission. )










The cam mounted light will present itself more of a key light than a fill light. However, in most cases what is needed is the key light to show up information detail. The art of the scene, however can only be reproduced with 3 point lighting and rarely will an amateur be allowed the freedom to establish that sort of lighting. 3 point lighting is Key, fill, and back lights. Most of those shots that lacked a key light had plenty of back light and a few had what could work as a fill.


----------



## Category 5

My wife and I saw this cam at the Sony store and thought it would be a great tool for documenting our newborn baby growing up. I was set to buy it and then she mentioned that since it was made in Japan perhaps it could carry enough low level radiation to be harmful to a newborn. I don't know much about that but did tell her I'd try to find out where the factory is in relation to the power plant there. I know Canon makes their cameras in Oita, quite a ways from the power plant disaster. Does anyone have any idea where the factory making the td10 is geographically located? Man I want one of these things. The depth of image from the sample at the Sony store was excellent. I think it is even better than some of the 3d blu ray discs we have purchased.


Surprised to see such a successful implementation of this technology in an affordable consumer targeted package so early in the 3d marketing brigade.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Category 5* /forum/post/20751683
> 
> 
> My wife and I saw this cam at the Sony store and thought it would be a great tool for documenting our newborn baby growing up. I was set to buy it and then she mentioned that since it was made in Japan perhaps it could carry enough low level radiation to be harmful to a newborn. I don't know much about that but did tell her I'd try to find out where the factory is in relation to the power plant there. I know Canon makes their cameras in Oita, quite a ways from the power plant disaster. Does anyone have any idea where the factory making the td10 is geographically located? Man I want one of these things. The depth of image from the sample at the Sony store was excellent. I think it is even better than some of the 3d blu ray discs we have purchased.
> 
> 
> Surprised to see such a successful implementation of this technology in an affordable consumer targeted package so early in the 3d marketing brigade.



serious dont worry about nuke around ya everywheres.







dont let the kid talk on a cell phone either.


----------



## JohnSchultz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Category 5* /forum/post/20751683
> 
> 
> My wife and I saw this cam at the Sony store and thought it would be a great tool for documenting our newborn baby growing up. I was set to buy it and then she mentioned that since it was made in Japan perhaps it could carry enough low level radiation to be harmful to a newborn. I don't know much about that but did tell her I'd try to find out where the factory is in relation to the power plant there



The US government has radiation detectors for incoming shipments...


You can rent a Geiger counter for $58/week: http://www.radpro.com/rentals.html 


Can buy one for around $270: http://www.google.com/products/catal...ed=0CHIQ8wIwAg


----------



## pteittinen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Category 5* /forum/post/20751683
> 
> 
> she mentioned that since it was made in Japan perhaps it could carry enough low level radiation to be harmful to a newborn. I don't know much about that



You have access to the most incredible collection of information ever created, so why not use it to educate yourself? It will alleviate undue stress and lets you breathe easier, too.


----------



## fuall




Category 5 said:


> My wife and I saw this cam at the Sony store and thought it would be a great tool for documenting our newborn baby growing up. I was set to buy it and then she mentioned that since it was made in Japan perhaps it could carry enough low level radiation to be harmful to a newborn. I don't know much about that but did tell her I'd try to find out where the factory is in relation to the power plant there. I know Canon makes their cameras in Oita, quite a ways from the power plant disaster. Does anyone have any idea where the factory making the td10 is geographically located? Man I want one of these things. The depth of image from the sample at the Sony store was excellent. I think it is even better than some of the 3d blu ray discs we have purchased.
> 
> 
> 
> You've got to be kidding me!! There are other things you need to be worried about.. like the polluted air you breathe. Also, stop being a whiny wuss and buy the dang thing already.


----------



## Category 5

Well, I pulled the trigger. Now I just need to find some software for Mac that'll let me edit....maybe even make a SBS AVCHD disc.


I have a rather hefty pc here too, but don't have a monitor for it because my new iMac no longer supports target display mode. I access it through remote desktop now. I can do things like convert and burn on the pc easilay but editing through remote desktop is not so good.


Thanks for helping me sway towards this cam...I just needed a push. Lol. The camera looks awesome even aside from the 3d. Fantastic resolution and the build quality is tops.


----------



## markr041

This one has dinosaurs; Egyptian mummies; a dodo (the bird); meteorites; colorful crystal rocks; ultraviolet glowing crystal rocks; live lizards, snakes, and colorful poisonous frogs from the rain forest; bug sculptures; a giant squid. Some pop-out.


The TD10 is ideally-suited for this kind of video: it does well in dim light, it has a wide-angle lens and the smallish interaxial distance is appropriate for the kinds of shots one takes indoors.


----------



## JohnSchultz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20759771
> 
> 
> This one has dinosaurs; Egyptian mummies; a dodo (the bird); meteorites; colorful crystal rocks; ultraviolet glowing crystal rocks; live lizards, snakes, and colorful poisonous frogs from the rain forest; bug sculptures; a giant squid. Some pop-out.



Cool- try adding these tags to the video so it can be watched in all forms of 3D supported by youtube: yt3d:enable=true yt3d:swap=true


More info here: http://www.google.com/support/forum/...b6f6f15dabf994


----------



## markr041

"Cool- try adding these tags to the video so it can be watched in all forms of 3D supported by youtube: yt3d:enable=true yt3d:swap=true"


That was already done. The Youtube 3D viewing options have been there from the start. You need to double click on the video; that will take you to the Youtube site and then you will see the options. If you just play the video you will not get the options. This is true for all of the video links in this thread - you need to double click to get to Youtube. There you can also download the video (108030p MP4 1/2-frame sbs Youtube version).


Alternatively, just click on the link:


----------



## Don Landis

Mark- where on You Tube do you get the link to post the 2D split image player here on AVS? I've always used the link offered and posted that in the forums like you did in your post above #806. It would be nice if the player offered the 3D options here like we get when we go to YT channel. I recall YT offers a link to insert the player and that is probably what you used but why don't they do the one with the 3D options?


----------



## markr041

Don, the player link I used is available here (AVS forum)among the posting options. You click on the icon "You Tube HD" and insert the link. That embeds the player, but evidently one without the 3D options (again, if you double click the player it takes you to the 3D-option player on the Youtube site).


I have not found a way to embed the player (3D) from the Youtube site. The advantage of the player here is that one can at least see what the video is about - a mummy!. But then one has to know the double-click trick for 3D options.


----------



## TomWheeler

You are not going to find any software that will let you edit the 3D MVC clips shot by the Sony HDR-TD10 on the Mac. At present, the only software that will import the Sony MVC files is Vegas Pro 10e and Vegas runs only on a PC. You best bet would be to install Windows 7 64 bit under Boot Camp on your iMac and then purchase and install Vegas 10e. That is what I did with my Mac Pro and I am now happily editing my HDR-TD10 footage in Vegas on my Mac using Windows 7 64 bit Professional.


Tom


----------



## markr041

"At present, the only software that will import the Sony MVC files is Vegas Pro 10e..."


No, Sony Movie Studio Platinum 11 does that and has many of the 3D editing features of Vegas Pro 10. It only costs $94.


----------



## Don Landis

Tom won't want to revert to Movie Studio v 11, Mark. That has the same bugs as Vegas 10d did. I was pretty disappointed in MS v11 when I installed it here and tested it. Currently it is uninstalled! Vegas Pro 10e is the only almost bug free software I use. Actually, I have absolutely no bugs in it at all here. As for performance, I still need to use dynamic ram to play sections of the timeline in real time. Even that didn't work well in 10d and as for MS v 11, it is only 32 bit so it has that limitation as well. ( renders about 50% as fast as Vegas pro 10e. 64 bit. ) Vegas MS v11 is a good idea but it fails on implementation.


----------



## markr041

Don, Could you be specific about the bugs in Platinum 11? I recall the AC3 5.1 bug (irrelevant to me, as I use the higher-resolution stereo setting in the camera so far), but I do not remember anything else. I certainly did not encounter any bugs in my use on the netbook, although, of course, rendering speeds were slow.


It is important for people to know the options. Having a few bugs is better than no working software or clumsy work-arounds or, for many, spending $500 for software that is only marginally superior *depending on one's needs*.


----------



## JStegin

I've been using the trial version of Movie Studio Platinum 11 the past 3 weeks with my primary focus on learning to edit my Sony 3D TD10 video. My video renders (custom of course, with ISO creation) have been stable with 3D titling and dissolves. I do hear the audio 5.1 problem but am pleased with the video results. There is a repeatable problem with the trial software related to 5.1 audio. If I save the project settings for all new projects with audio at 5.1, VMS11 will always start to open, then fail to initialize the project and ask me to send error reporting to Sony. I have reproduced this on the 3 different PCs and solved this problem by always setting the project to open as stereo then changing to 5.1 for the render as needed. Before I close VMS11 I make sure the project is saved as stereo.


Thanks to all on this thread for teaching me...........


----------



## Category 5

Anyone have any experience with aftermarket batteries? We got a digipower battery to go with our td10 and when i plug the camera in to charge the charge light just flashes and doesn't charge. Any ideas?


----------



## Don Landis

5.1 audio distortion was the main one. Tom and I have had enough of that nonsense to mess with that anymore. I also have had numerous issues of the MS v 11 not launching but freezing up on booting. That may be an issue with something I have running on my system that conflicts, but when I reboot windows and launch it first, its OK, if I try to launch it after working in Vegas Pro or using DVDA 5.2 the MSv11 will fail and lock up. My version is not a trial but fully licensed and paid for from Sony.


I'm sure you are fine if you don't care about audio. I place a higher importance on sound quality and 5.1 capability.


----------



## markr041

1. Putting aside audio for the moment, if the main bug is simultaneous use of Platinum and Pro, that is not relevant for getting Platinum _instead_ of Pro for the average user (not poster here). I own Pro and have used Platinum, so I am not exhibiting owner bias here (and neither are you!).


2. Whoa, Don, I am an audio professional! I care deeply about audio quality. That is precisely why I do NOT use 5.1 - because the bitrate per channel is lower than it is in stereo on the camera. I choose audio quality over surround sound. You value surround sound but at the expense of audio quality (which is characterized by frequency response, dynamic range, distortion and level and quality of compression, among other things). As in video, higher bitrates on average means higher quality, _ceteris paribus_. And, again, there are more bits available per channel in stereo mode than in 5.1 mode on the TD10 (448kbps have to be distributed across 5 channels; 256 kbps are distributed across two channels). Am I missing something (aside from surround sound)?


Of course, I know we both know that the best audio is obtained externally - off the camera. But this is about on-camera audio.


----------



## Richard Adams

Quote:

Originally Posted by *markr041* 
"At present, the only software that will import the Sony MVC files is Vegas Pro 10e..."


No, Sony Movie Studio Platinum 11 does that and has many of the 3D editing features of Vegas Pro 10. It only costs $94.
If a Sony TD10 user wants something fast and simple, there is a cut and join editor built into the Sony PMB software that comes on the CD with the TD10 camcorder.


This definitely works great on non-Mac MS Windows based PCs. To do simple edits, no render is needed, so there is no loss of bits quality or frame rate like there is when Sony Vegas renders the file for 1080p24 or 720p60 blu ray burning.


Since Mac based computers were mentioned in this thread, although non-Mac machines work 100% with PMB, it is not known if PMB will run on a Windows version for Mac, as PMB may need to "register" a TD10 camcorder connected at one time to a USB port in order to "enable" these MVC video cut and join features.


Does anyone know if the Mac emulation of Windows operating environment is robust enough to activate the native 3D 1080i60 editing features of PMB? I have heard of other software like this running ok on a Mac when diligently applied.


See this thread about PMB editing. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1349684


----------



## markr041

"If a Sony TD10 user wants something fast and simple, there is a cut and join editor built into the Sony PMB software that comes on the CD with the TD10 camcorder.


This definitely works great on non-Mac MS Windows based PCs. To do simple edits, no render is needed, so there is no loss of bits quality or frame rate like there is when Sony Vegas renders the file for 1080p24 or 720p60 blu ray burning."


This is all true. But after you have created a merged MVC 3D video file in PMB, what do you do with it? Suppose you want to see your "movie" on your 3D HDTV. How do you view it in 3D? You cannot even view it in 3D using PMB on your computer.


In Vegas you can can burn a 3D bluray that will play in any 3D-enabled bluray player. So, you can conveniently watch your 3D video in 3D. And, of course, while editing you can preview in 3D on the computer (many options).


You cannot burn a 3D bluray in PMB. So, again, what do you do to watch in 3D your pristine 3D video file made in PMB?


----------



## Don Landis

Mark the whole point of 5.1 audio IS SURROUND! I have never pushed high quality in bit rate of stereo over lesser bit rate 5.1 surround as my game has always been about entertainment. I place a very high value in the entertainment aspect of video and sound. Entertainment is the very reason I do 3D over 2D. It certainly does not bring higher quality to my screen than what I get with 2D images. In the TD10 the sole purpose of the 5.1 or I should say the 5.0 channel numbers are in the ambiance of the scene. From the start I have always said my goal here is to recreate the experience in my programming. As professional TV producer, that has not always been my goal. In my other life, TV advertising, my goal was to expose my clients product and services to the public. I can't say I have ever been in a project where the state of the art in high quality was the primary goal. It is a noble goal and I admire what some here, especially what Joe Clark has done with quality. BUT, while I can admire that, my personal interest is in entertainment.

So, with that in mind, I see little point in bypassing the 5.1 capability of my TD10 to use the MS v11 software. I have no problem with others who choose to use it and decide to avoid the buggy stuff to have a low cost edit solution. It should do well.

Now you may be wondering why I was even interested in MS v11 in the first place. That is a good question and the answer is to emulate what you have achieved, by loading it on my laptop for on the road 3D editing work if needed. It certainly has no place here on my quadcore 64 bit system. I have Vegas Pro for that. But as it seems to have some issues, I put that goal on the back burner for now. I only own MS Platinum v11 because the v10 was my work around for 5.1 but now is no longer needed. It is just a curiosity at this point.

Quote:

You cannot burn a 3D bluray in PMB. So, again, what do you do to watch in 3D your pristine 3D video file made in PMB?
Load it back into the TD10 and play it? Has anyone tried this yet? I said before I had created a full production once and used PMB to load it back to the camcorder to play but that was a 2D project. Never tried 3D.


----------



## markr041

I had a good experience using Sony Vegas Platinum 11 on my netbook while traveling, ignoring the long render times. However, I was disappointed to learn that the project files from Platinum 11 are not compatible with Vegas Pro 10.


Normally, Platinum project files work in Vegas Pro (not vice versa). However, you get the message in Vegas Pro 10e that the Platinum 11 project files are "newer" and will not work. What a crazy thing!


----------



## JohnSchultz

Regarding 5.1 vs. stereo on the TD10: for natural sound and entertainment value, definitely go for the 5.1. Hearing sounds play back in all the channels in the home theater is worth it (even my non-techie wife notices when surround sound is not happening). 3D sound to go with the 3D video.


For spoken and general ambient sound, the 5.1 audio from the TD10 is pretty good (448kbps for all channels). For a music production with more energy in the higher frequencies, recording separate audio on something like a Sound Devices 788T ($6k) will produce pro-quality 7.1 audio. Adding in pro mics & other gear puts it up over $10k. For a scripted production (or higher-end documentary), that's a reasonable cost (though it might make more sense to rent the gear, or pay a sound guy who already owns this or similar gear). For a 3D BD disk (with uncompressed DTS-MA etc.) or theatrical release (uncompressed), this makes sense. For internet only or cable/sat, highly compressed 5.1 will be delivered and while the quality will be higher with higher quality source material, the average consumer may not be able to hear the difference.


Creating a 'proper' 5.1 (or 7.1) surround mix requires a treated sound mixing room with monitor speakers (can be relatively lower cost thanks to Chinese knock-offs). I have seen (heard) quite a bit of variance in surround mixing in my home theater- ranging from amazing to really bad (commercial BluRay productions). I think it's important to also test surround mixes on typical consumer gear in typical living rooms to get a good all-around mix (it's not enough to mix on neutral speakers). There are ProTools plugins which can use convolution to recreate a variety of consumer spaces to check the mix (can also allow somewhat decent surround mixing on headphones using HRTFs (Head-Related Tranfer Functions: convolution for binaural 3D audio)).


Devices like the Zoom H4N can record decent quality 4 track audio which can be mixed into 5.1 or 7.1. An H4N & decent low-cost mics for 4 channel recording can be had for under $1k. A Zoom R16 ($400) can record 8 channels (also need more mics so more $$$).


Working with separate audio is a lot more work and doing a 'proper' surround mix is even more work. If not doing a professional production (for profit), the built in highly compressed 5.1 is probably adequate (might be interesting to do an A/B test between stereo and mixed-down 5.1 (or just the L&R channels)).


Working with Cineform Neo I just found out that it destroys the 5.1 track when doing the 3D MUX (5.1 channels are present but all zeroes): another challenge with 5.1 is buggy software (work around is the add the original MTS file to sequence and use its 5.1 track aligned to the stereo track (must shift about 2 frames to line up)).


----------



## TomWheeler

Mark, you are correct in calling out my error about Sony Vegas Pro 10e being the only software that will currently import the Sony MVC files. I am aware that Sony's Movie Studio software will also import these files and I should have mentioned that.


However, the real point of my response to the Mac user was to point out that editing MVC files from the TD10 on a Mac is only (at present) possible under Windows and that requires installing Boot Camp and a Windows operating system. That point, which I think is critical to any Mac user purchasing the Sony HDR-TD10 and hoping to edit the MVC files that it produces is true and important for the Mac user to note.


Tom


----------



## Richard Adams

Quote:

Originally Posted by *TomWheeler* 
Mark, you are correct in calling out my error about Sony Vegas Pro 10e being the only software that will currently import the Sony MVC files. I am aware that Sony's Movie Studio software will also import these files and I should have mentioned that.


However, the real point of my response to the Mac user was to point out that editing MVC files from the TD10 on a Mac is only (at present) possible under Windows and that requires installing Boot Camp and a Windows operating system. That point, which I think is critical to any Mac user purchasing the Sony HDR-TD10 and hoping to edit the MVC files that it produces is true and important for the Mac user to note.


Tom
I notice that there is a MAC folder on the Sony PMB disk that came with my TD10. I wonder what that supports. I won't have a chance to test this on a MAC myself for some time.


Can anyone try the TD10 PMB software disk on a MAC with Mac's own OS, and also on a MAC with a windows install?


----------



## Richard Adams

Quote:

Originally Posted by *markr041* 
"If a Sony TD10 user wants something fast and simple, there is a cut and join editor built into the Sony PMB software that comes on the CD with the TD10 camcorder.


This definitely works great on non-Mac MS Windows based PCs. To do simple edits, no render is needed, so there is no loss of bits quality or frame rate like there is when Sony Vegas renders the file for 1080p24 or 720p60 blu ray burning."


This is all true. But after you have created a merged MVC 3D video file in PMB, what do you do with it? Suppose you want to see your "movie" on your 3D HDTV. How do you view it in 3D? You cannot even view it in 3D using PMB on your computer.


In Vegas you can can burn a 3D bluray that will play in any 3D-enabled bluray player. So, you can conveniently watch your 3D video in 3D. And, of course, while editing you can preview in 3D on the computer (many options).


You cannot burn a 3D bluray in PMB. So, again, what do you do to watch in 3D your pristine 3D video file made in PMB?
For better results than connecting to my TD10, I have my 3D monitor connected to my PC via HDMI.


I use the software player called "Stereoscopic Player. There is a functional free trial of this at the link below.


Don could you take a look at this please. I ask since I know you have a Vizio. Is that the passive kind with interline polarized? That would be like my LG monitor.


When the TD10 is connected directly to my monitor, I have to use SBS mode from the TD10, which cuts my horizontal resolution.


With the passive monitor connected to the PC, using "stereoscopic player," I can use the "Row Interlaced" stereoscopic mode native to my monitor, so I get full resolution 3D on my monitor, both full screen and in smaller windows.

*The quality looks better than directly connecting my TD10 to the TV, since I do not have to use the lossy SBS half resolution mode.* Since I did not have to render and burn any bluray disks, nor do I have to down-convert to 1080p24 or 720p60, I am getting as good as or better quality than either of those bluray formats.


Using "Stereoscopic Player," my monitor remains set to 1080p60, and this player software is doing excellent 3D playback in real time directly from my original or PMB trimmed MVC files.


My PC doing this excellent 3D playback has an older CPU and mediocre video card, and still gets great results. I have a 3.16GHz core2duo 8500 CPU, and an Nvidia 8500GT running XP SP3.


I can't see taking the time and expense to run Vegas and burn bluray disks for viewing family clips on the TD10. I still have to use Vegas if I want a bluray to hand out, or want a 3D still frame capture.


The 3D and 5.1 of the family is entertaining. I have to think that a lot of people would prefer to go the PMB / software player route with their TD10 for simplified fast editing. This puts the PS3 on the back shelf (it only does bluray 3D or lossy SBS files), and the HTPC up front for TD10 3D playback for me, since the picture quality is tops, and the simplicity is all there.


link for this 3D player software: http://www.3dtv.at/Shop/Index_en.aspx


----------



## Don Landis

Richard- I uses SBS-Full output now from Vegas, not SBS half. All Passive monitors reduce resolution by half anyway so this way I'm not reducing to 1/4 resolution which really gets jaggy on hard line diagonals. Personally, I have no use for watching MTS files on my PC. To review clips, I look at them in 2D or connected to the 3D monitor via HDMI from the TD10. Beyond that, I'm in edit session on Vegas and now reviewing editing in the timeline playback using Dynamic ram. After that, it's screening the iso file burned to BD-RE. The only use I would have for a PC player is to play the iso rendered file directly on my PC in 3D.


I believe the MAC folder for the disk that came with the TD10 is for loading the TD10 manual and how to get the most from shooting the TD10. It doesn't appear to have a MAC version of PMB on the disk.


Not sure if this version will work for TD10 MVC but you can check it out-

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/swu-do...d=4613&SMB=YES


----------



## Richard Adams

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
Richard- I uses SBS-Full output now from Vegas, not SBS half. All Passive monitors reduce resolution by half anyway so this way I'm not reducing to 1/4 resolution which really gets jaggy on hard line diagonals. Personally, I have no use for watching MTS files on my PC. To review clips, I look at them in 2D or connected to the 3D monitor via HDMI from the TD10. Beyond that, I'm in edit session on Vegas and now reviewing editing in the timeline playback using Dynamic ram. After that, it's screening the iso file burned to BD-RE. The only use I would have for a PC player is to play the iso rendered file directly on my PC in 3D.


I believe the MAC folder for the disk that came with the TD10 is for loading the TD10 manual and how to get the most from shooting the TD10. It doesn't appear to have a MAC version of PMB on the disk.
ALSO

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
Load it back into the TD10 and play it? Has anyone tried this yet? I said before I had created a full production once and used PMB to load it back to the camcorder to play but that was a 2D project. Never tried 3D.
Ya good thing Vegas has full SBS. That gives me great 3D still frames.


I had abandoned HTPC in favor of PS3 for years until recently needed it for a few things the PS3 wouldn't playback correctly. For those I got a 50' HDMI cable to the theater TV from my DLNA server PC. So now with 3D I have another use for that cable. No need to render or burn blu ray and still get top 3D quality.


----------



## Frank

My curiosity overcame my better judgement and I just ordered my 2nd HDR-TD10.

Will be mounting them both on my bench and controlling them with my dual camera LANC controller.

I'm extremely interested in what I can do with four separate video streams from four different perspectives.


----------



## JohnSchultz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frank* /forum/post/20765440
> 
> 
> I'm extremely interested in what I can do with four separate video streams from four different perspectives.












spider vision


----------



## markr041

The perfect solution to get rid of the bugs in Vegas Pro 10e (should have been in the other thread)!


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JohnSchultz* /forum/post/20765772
> 
> 
> spider vision



PMB wouldn't be able to edit 2 3D TD10 streams at once. Oh well.


I see the value in often having one TD10 set to a wider view than the other, and using the two 3D views as an inset or alternate of the same subject matter and time. Very useful for non-staged precious moments.


Spiders have up to 8 eyes. The peripheral eyes judge distance of prospective prey, predators or mates. The two main eyes have higher resolution and are used for closer work. Some species lack the main eyes. I suppose spiders that lack those don't care what their mates or food looks like in detail. The high resolution visual streams on spiders is limited to zero or two.


----------



## Don Landis

Frank- I thought you already did buy two TD10's. Guess I got ahead of myself.


I have been considering buying a second one too. While it will have advantages in using both for wide IA for my large scene 3D shots. My real intent is to get another viewpoint of a given shot. In editing, this is an extreme advantage toward getting that professional look not possible in a single camera run and gun shoot. It's not just what Richard was talking about but actually shooting from different angles. In my other life, I normally shot using 3 and 4 camera productions. I know your goal is quite different from mine but having two 3D TD10's offers me quite a few production advantages, especially since most of my travels I will have my wife along. She can be quite a good shooter if she concentrates. Reason is she follows direction very well. The trick will be getting her to take the amateur shoots I am doing today serious. She never questioned or deviated when I had some serious talent on set for a TV show and she ran a camera for me. But our last Disney trip, I gave her the Bloggie 3D and she shot a grand total of 12 seconds of video all day.


On a shot like that Fireworks show I could set up one camera full wide and a second constantly zooming in for closeups, then cut between the two OR as Richard suggested, use the PIP format.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20766355
> 
> 
> Frank- I thought you already did buy two TD10's. Guess I got ahead of myself.
> 
> 
> I have been considering buying a second one too. While it will have advantages in using both for wide IA for my large scene 3D shots. My real intent is to get another viewpoint of a given shot. In editing, this is an extreme advantage toward getting that professional look not possible in a single camera run and gun shoot. It's not just what Richard was talking about but actually shooting from different angles. In my other life, I normally shot using 3 and 4 camera productions. I know your goal is quite different from mine but having two 3D TD10's offers me quite a few production advantages, especially since most of my travels I will have my wife along. She can be quite a good shooter if she concentrates. Reason is she follows direction very well. The trick will be getting her to take the amateur shoots I am doing today serious. She never questioned or deviated when I had some serious talent on set for a TV show and she ran a camera for me. But our last Disney trip, I gave her the Bloggie 3D and she shot a grand total of 12 seconds of video all day.
> 
> 
> On a shot like that Fireworks show I could set up one camera full wide and a second constantly zooming in for closeups, then cut between the two OR as Richard suggested, use the PIP format.



Great Spider close up!


I was at Disney World + Universal May 19-25 for my youngest daughter's wedding. I wonder which of us was 1st to do 3D there.


Though most of my shooting was "us," the TD10's 3D night shots of castle, fireworks and parades were also fantastic. It's like the camera records the same way my eyes see it.


Is it just me, or do other people have the issue needing to switch the LCD viewfinder display to 2D mode (while 3D recording), in order to see it in bright sunlight?


----------



## Don Landis

Just you, Richard. Use a Hoodman HD450. I don't see a difference in screen brightness in 2D over 3D. But if that works for you, why not do it.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20767590
> 
> 
> Just you, Richard. Use a Hoodman HD450. I don't see a difference in screen brightness in 2D over 3D. But if that works for you, why not do it.



Hmmm.... I wonder if my TD10 is defective. Can you please get me a photo of what your TD10 viewfinder looks like in bright sunlight? Thanks.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20770933
> 
> 
> Hmmm.... I wonder if my TD10 is defective. Can you please get me a photo of what your TD10 viewfinder looks like in bright sunlight? Thanks.



If you watch this video you will find that your opinion is shared.


----------



## cdb1

Can I just check, when I copy my td10s files to the pc are they saved in 2d and not 3d?

When I play them in powerdvd11 it's saying the bitrate is around 15MB/s, picture quality is noticably lower than when viewed direct from the camcorder on the same monitor and it also doesn't fill the screen width ways. To me it looks like it's processing a 2d video into 3d.

IF this is the case, how can I save and view the 3d files on my pc? Obviously I don't want to keep them on the camcorder as it's filling up fast.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20767472
> 
> 
> Is it just me, or do other people have the issue needing to switch the LCD viewfinder display to 2D mode (while 3D recording), in order to see it in bright sunlight?



I was shooting in bright sunlight on sunday and I did notice that the viewfinder was much easier to see in 2d rather than 3d. I had to change it to bright too as I could barely see it in 3d in the standard brightness.


----------



## Don Landis

Richard- My point was that the 2D screen is not bright enough in bright sunlight either. ( My Opinion) I use a Hoodman and that works for me. If you find the 2D screen is adequate then stop whining and just use it! Obviously, my eyesight is not as good as yours.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cdb1* /forum/post/20771254
> 
> 
> Can I just check, when I copy my td10s files to the pc are they saved in 2d and not 3d?
> 
> When I play them in powerdvd11 it's saying the bitrate is around 15MB/s, picture quality is noticably lower than when viewed direct from the camcorder on the same monitor and it also doesn't fill the screen width ways. To me it looks like it's processing a 2d video into 3d.
> 
> IF this is the case, how can I save and view the 3d files on my pc? Obviously I don't want to keep them on the camcorder as it's filling up fast.
> 
> 
> I was shooting in bright sunlight on sunday and I did notice that the viewfinder was much easier to see in 2d rather than 3d. I had to change it to bright too as I could barely see it in 3d in the standard brightness.



Thanks cdb1, Frank and Don for the observations about the TD10 viewfinder in sunlight.


cdb1, when 3D files are copied to the PC from the TD10 using either PMB or Windows copy function, they will be in 3D and aren't converted to 2D during the transfer.


PowerDVD11 does not play TD10 3D files in actual 3D unless you first convert them to a bluray iso with Sony Vegas, mount it on a virtual bluray drive, and then play back in powerdvd11 using the "cinema" mode. Alternately you can burn the iso to actual optical media and playback using a bluray drive and powerdvd11.


When powerdvd11 plays these 3D MVC files in non-cinema mode, they will be displayed in 2D mode or in a 2D to 3D conversion that is no where near as nice as the actual 3D, since this playback mode of powerdvd11 ignores the 2nd eye 3D information contained in the file.


From a user's standpoint, it is ridiculous that powerdvd11 processes 3D files this way. I suspect it is related to bluray licensing that they do not play the files in true 3D from any source except when it appears to be coming from a bluray disk in the cinema mode. The PS3 has a similar limitation, which is additional proof that there is a licensing issue that does not permit 3D playback from files.

*Instead of bothering* with all that work in PowerDVD11, I use the "stereoscopic player" for true 3D playback of 3D TD10 files. Perhaps this non-usa based product isn't affected by the licensing limitations.


Stereoscopic Players gives me better looking playback of the TD10 files than I get when directly connecting the TD10 to the same monitor, since the TD10 only supports my monitor in HALF SBS mode, and this reduces the resolution. Stereoscopic Players doesn't have to use sbs mode.


I do use powerdvd11 to display 3D still photos captured from TD10 3D files in full SBS mode 3840x1080 mode using from Sony Vegas to do the single frame capture to a jpg file that has the sbs image in it.


----------



## cdb1

Thanks for that Richard. So I can safely delete the 3d files on my TD10 now I've dragged and dropped them to my PC via a card reader. (Why oh why is the TD10 so slow at transferring...about 14hours for 60GB)

I've tried the steroscopic player but it's not much better than powerdvd11, it's still like there's a loss of resolution. My picture is by far the best when connected hdmi td10 to monitor (acer 27") however I am getting quite abit of screen tear if that's the right term.

Powerdvd does a reasonable job of converting some pictures and video to 3d, others it completely messes up.



As an aside, I bought Tron3D for testing my monitor with and played through pdvd11 it looks every bit as good as I'd expect my td10 to look.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cdb1* /forum/post/20773903
> 
> 
> Thanks for that Richard. So I can safely delete the 3d files on my TD10 now I've dragged and dropped them to my PC via a card reader. (Why oh why is the TD10 so slow at transferring...about 14hours for 60GB)
> 
> I've tried the steroscopic player but it's not much better than powerdvd11, it's still like there's a loss of resolution. My picture is by far the best when connected hdmi td10 to monitor (acer 27") however I am getting quite abit of screen tear if that's the right term.
> 
> Powerdvd does a reasonable job of converting some pictures and video to 3d, others it completely messes up.
> 
> 
> As an aside, I bought Tron3D for testing my monitor with and played through pdvd11 it looks every bit as good as I'd expect my td10 to look.



The 14 hours sounds slow. Are you using PMB or direct file transfer? If direct transfer works faster, and it's speed is okay, then PMB is simply not as robust. Others have reported that PMB is slower than direct transfer, but the beauty of PMB is that files are ready to use with PMB for video trimming.


I seem to recall direct transfer is 2-4x faster than the 14 hours you mentioned, and I will do a test on my system for that later today.


Potential problem areas to cause slowness include a slow USB hub, a slow USB port, a defective USB cable, other tasks on the PC using up hard drive bandwidth, or defective TD10.


It is a common practice to have a backup of your content before deleting it from the camcorder. A simply way to have a backup is to use an external USB drive that are fairly inexpensive these days. Almost any USB drive that your PC supports can be used for direct backup from the PC.


The TD10 can backup directly to some newer WD passport drives, mentioned in earlier pages on this thread.


When the TD10 backups directly to a drive, or when PMB is used, the file structure is maintained to keep track of recording events and dates. When directly copying via the USB ports on a PC, the filenames may not correspond with file names that the TD10 would pick if it was directly backing up to a drive connected to it without a computer.


The monitor I've used with the TD10 and Stereoscopic Player on the PC is discussed in this thread. It's a 23" passive. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1340108


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> As an aside, I bought Tron3D for testing my monitor with and played through pdvd11 it looks every bit as good as I'd expect my td10 to look.



Out of all the 3D movies on the market you couldn't have selected a worse 3D movie for testing.







The reason why is that this particular movie is a mix of 2D and 3D. I like Tron and enjoy the story but for a test it is not so good. Usually the animated movies give good 3D image quality, right from the start of the movie.


----------



## cdb1

Using pmb at the moment and it's quoting 13hrs+ for 46GB







It doesn't want to download just the new stuff like it should do, so it's insisting on downloading all of it again.

I've reinstalled windows7 on a new hdd at the weekend and last night it finally downloaded sp1 and now things are even slower. I'll check the usb2 driver is uptodate later. (it should be)

Direct copying quotes about an hour at 10MB/s



Don, it was the only 3d blu-ray available when I went into the shop. It did prove that the monitor is OK though and the picture quality was good. There was no screen tear (as when TD10 hooked dierect to the monitor) or bad judder when panning (as provided by powerdvd11).



Edited to add. Just checked my HD-SR12's transfer speed. PMB says about 1hr 15 for 33GB and direct copy and paste was showing 21MB/s, so twice as fast as the TD10 direct and much faster via pmb.


----------



## emporer

The speeds you get from your SR12 is perfect, very similar performance from what I get with my TD10, i'm thinking you may have a faulty TD10, plus the screen tear when hooked up directly to a display is most odd, it should be silky smooth. I'd hazard a guess something is wrong somewhere.


----------



## cdb1

I'm surprised the sr12 doesn't transfer abit faster as it's hdd to hdd. USB2 claims upto 480Mb/s, but I think 23MB (184Mb/s) is the fastest I've ever seen.


For my memory card I can put it in the USB3 card reader and import it that way to PMB at a much faster rate, but it doesn't help with the internal memory. I think I might be contacting Sony.


Re the screen tear. I'm assuming my monitor might not be 1080/50i 3D friendly. I might need to contact Acer as well.


----------



## trevorjharris

Just had my TD10 for a few days now and I think it is fantastic. I have been trying Cineforms neo with premiere pro. I used mvctoavi to convert the mvc file to 2 cineform files and then multiplexed them together with Firstlight. This works very well but I came across a problem. I have an Acer GN245HQ 3d monitor and a geforce 470 graphics card running Nvidia 3D vision. Unfortunatly Cineform only support Quatro cards for thier Nvidia page flip mode.







So if I want to play Cineform files in 3D I would have to spend £500 for a new card. I did try Stereo Player but that does not work although I understand some people have had it working. Does anyone have a work around for this problem?


My monitor does have an HDMI input and the TD10 will play 3D directly from the camera.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trevorjharris* /forum/post/20788365
> 
> 
> Just had my TD10 for a few days now and I think it is fantastic. I have been trying Cineforms neo with premiere pro. I used mvctoavi to convert the mvc file to 2 cineform files and then multiplexed them together with Firstlight. This works very well but I came across a problem. I have an Acer GN245HQ 3d monitor and a geforce 470 graphics card running Nvidia 3D vision. Unfortunatly Cineform only support Quatro cards for thier Nvidia page flip mode.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if I want to play Cineform files in 3D I would have to spend £500 for a new card. I did try Stereo Player but that does not work although I understand some people have had it working. Does anyone have a work around for this problem?
> 
> 
> My monitor does have an HDMI input and the TD10 will play 3D directly from the camera.



This is easy. You just need to add your card to the approved list in Premiere. I'm not where I can give you the direct link, but if you Google "Premiere CUDA hack" you should find everything you need to make it work. Or Google "cuda.exe." It's the program that allows you to do the hack with a few clicks. I have an nVidia 460 and it works great in Premiere.


----------



## trevorjharris

Thanks for the post Joe. The card is Adobe approved and works ok with premiere. The problem is with Cineform which uses OpenGL 3D which is not supported by the Nvidia driver for Gforce cards.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trevorjharris* /forum/post/20789652
> 
> 
> Thanks for the post Joe. The card is Adobe approved and works ok with premiere. The problem is with Cineform which uses OpenGL 3D which is not supported by the Nvidia driver for Gforce cards.



Is the problem that you can't see the Cineform files in 3D just in FirstLight, or in both FirstLight and Premiere?


----------



## trevorjharris

I can see the video OK but I cannot see it in 3D. Cineform does say in a tech note that you have to have a Quatro to support frame flip. Its not a bug it is just a short comming in the cineform software. People need to be aware.


----------



## trevorjharris

Actually I have just discovered you need a Quatro for Vegas Pro aswell to have a 3d secondary monitor using Nvidia Vision 3D. The issue is qud buffered stereo.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Quote:

Originally Posted by *trevorjharris* 
Actually I have just discovered you need a Quatro for Vegas Pro aswell to have a 3d secondary monitor using Nvidia Vision 3D. The issue is qud buffered stereo.
Ugh!


Oh, well, if a Quadro card is in my future, I suppose a Quadro card is in my future.







I'll probably be dealing with the same issue soon.


----------



## pteittinen

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* 
Oh, well, if a Quadro card is in my future, I suppose a Quadro card is in my future.
Same here, although I have to say I'm not liking the situation one bit. I'm not a fan of how Nvidia sells their latest GPUs on gaming cards at a much lower cost than older GPUs on Quadro cards. The GF100 used in Quadro 4000, 5000 and 6000 is 18 months old, eats watts like candy and runs so hot you don't want to block the exhaust vent with your hand...


----------



## kostasgr

Camcorderinfo review of the sony HDR-TD10:
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm


----------



## JohnSchultz

Quote:

Originally Posted by *pteittinen* 
Same here, although I have to say I'm not liking the situation one bit. I'm not a fan of how Nvidia sells their latest GPUs on gaming cards at a much lower cost than older GPUs on Quadro cards. The GF100 used in Quadro 4000, 5000 and 6000 is 18 months old, eats watts like candy and runs so hot you don't want to block the exhaust vent with your hand...
Nvidia rightly charges more for higher stability and advanced features. The gaming cards are clocked higher and are more likely to get computing errors and overheat if used for long periods of GPU activity (apparently computing tasks run the GPU hotter than game graphics). Years ago we use to move surface-mount resistors around to get the improved Quadro rendering features from the consumer cards (other folks ran hacked drivers).


I've got a Quadro 5000 in my 12core box. It is not really any faster than the GTX285 (even older tech) with PPro GPU rendering. It does run hot- however the air won't burn your hand (ambient room temp: ~80F). Touching the metal is probably not recommended beyond a few seconds. The Q5000 has 2.5GB of ECC RAM (not available on consumer cards). When I purchased the Q5000 last year, I figured NVidia+Apple would update the firmware & drivers to also run on OSX. That never happened, so I am considering selling it and putting the GTX285 back in.


I use a second monitor/TV over HDMI for 3D editing: a Samsung 46" D8000 using side by side (works great). Some of my Mac colleagues use 55" LG passives. No need for OpenGL 3D, etc. Lots of 3D HDTV options out there (42" Vizio passive as low as $650 (I prefer shutter until passive ups the vertical resolution)). A 3D HDTV can also play back full 3D HD BluRay content.


----------



## pteittinen

Quote:

Originally Posted by *JohnSchultz* 
Nvidia rightly charges more for higher stability and advanced features.
John, we _don't know_ if Quadro cards are more stable in professional applications: Nvidia does not let anyone do comparison tests. Advanced features, sure - enabled in the Quadro driver, not in hardware. You'd get the same features in gaming cards if they were enabled in GeForce drivers. The two product lines differ hardware-wise only in memory controller and RAM, and that does not merit a 300-400% price difference.

Quote:

apparently computing tasks run the GPU hotter than game graphics
Not quite sure what you're saying here. The GPU does not know what the numbers it's crunching are for, it simply performs the task as quickly as it can. And graphics engines employed in modern games use 100% of available GPU power, easy.

Quote:

I've got a Quadro 5000 in my 12core box. It is not really any faster than the GTX285 (even older tech) with PPro GPU rendering.
That's my beef with Nvidia in a nutshell. Nvidia is gouging professionals simply because professional tools are supposed to be more expensive. I'm not saying they are alone in that, ohhhh no


----------



## JohnSchultz

Quote:

Originally Posted by *pteittinen* 
John, we _don't know_ if Quadro cards are more stable in professional applications: Nvidia does not let anyone do comparison tests. Advanced features, sure - enabled in the Quadro driver, not in hardware. You'd get the same features in gaming cards if they were enabled in GeForce drivers. The two product lines differ only in memory controller and RAM, and that does not merit a 300-400% price difference.
Regarding stability, google "ECC memory". Regarding price- it's up to Nvidia to charge what the market will bear: economics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *pteittinen* 
Not quite sure what you're saying here. The GPU does not know what the numbers it's crunching are for, it simply performs the task as quickly as it can. And graphics engines employed in modern games use 100% of available GPU power, easy.
One of the hats I wear is game developer, and I can tell you firsthand that it's not easy to fully utilize the GPU 100% of the time (and not needed anyway- the game isn't running all the VFX at the same time all the time). Scientific and professional rendering applications (including render farms) can run 24/7. Some gamers are pretty dedicated, but most need to take breaks to eat, sleep, use the bathroom, etc. A gamer will put up with crashing (and can lower the clock speed to make stable). A pro won't tolerate much crashing. Intel sells CPUs which run much faster than they are rated. Consumers happily overclock and take the risk while pros do not (stability is more important). A pro would return a pro graphics card that frequently overheated or had errors: this would cost Nvidia (and it's card vendors) in a variety of ways (returns/warranty claims, etc.). Quality costs money and the market will pay it.


That said, I also need flexibility, and right now the Q5000 is PC only (12core box is a MacPro). I'm working on projects that require both PC/Mac work, and it would be helpful to put the 12core box back into the Mac workflows. So, I'm willing to give the old GTX 285 a spin to see if it is as stable as the Q5000 (while allowing dual use in PC+Mac) before I sell the Q5000 (will also do more careful benchmarks to check rendering performance).


----------



## tonyfarley

I just finished my first video with the Sony HDR-TD10. I used my MacBook Pro. I first had to convert the files to uncompressed with MTS Converter in Windows (using Bootcamp), then I went over to the Mac side and compressed to ProRes, then I used Final Cut Pro with the Dashwood 3D plugin to edit the video. Here is a link to both the video and more details about how I did it. Sorry, I can't post URL's here yet. Go to yosemitewithtony.com and you can see the blogpost.


Tony


----------



## tonyfarley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20767590
> 
> 
> Just you, Richard. Use a Hoodman HD450. I don't see a difference in screen brightness in 2D over 3D. But if that works for you, why not do it.



Thanks for that advise Don. I can't see a darn thing in bright sunlight.


Tony


----------



## JohnSchultz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tonyfarley* /forum/post/20794873
> 
> 
> I just finished my first video with the Sony HDR-TD10. I used my MacBook Pro. I first had to convert the files to uncompressed with MTS Converter in Windows (using Bootcamp), then I went over to the Mac side and compressed to ProRes, then I used Final Cut Pro with the Dashwood 3D plugin to edit the video. Here is a link to both the video and more details about how I did it. Sorry, I can't post URL's here yet. Go to yosemitewithtony.com and you can see the blogpost.
> 
> 
> Tony


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rItByo-ZusY 


The first shot appears to be psuedo stereo (L + R reversed)- should be easy to fix.


Since it is so white, you might try adjusting the color/brightness curve to bring down the highlights so more detail is visible.


You can reduce the room echo for the VO by getting closer to the mic- right up to it (windscreen, pop guard, speaking off axis will help with plosives). Easier with a lower gain dynamic mic, though a condenser will still work with the gain turned down. Garageband and Logic have cool VO features you might want to check out (noise gate, compresser/expander, EQ, etc.).


The snowflakes, the shot by the stream and the walk through the branches looks really good in 3D. Have you considered uploading a 1080p version?


----------



## Zakowsky

Looks like this is the best place on the web for TD10 discussions - I've been using mine for a few months now, and had some questions people have touched on here, but I was hoping for some more info.


1) Relating to the GPU posts going on, so the deal is you absolutely have to have a Quadro to use Nvidia 3D Vision as a preview monitor in 3D with Vegas 10e? I have dual GTX 580's in SLI, which play back the movies perfectly with Stereoscopic Player, so it must do the page flipping fine. I saw the post about using the cards HMDI output and editing 3D on a TV...does this also need a Quadro or will that work with the gaming cards?


3) What format are people outputting their final renders in from Vegas Pro 10e for the highest quality possible? Irrespective of how they are going to be played back, I'd like to keep a master copy of the edited movie, but it seems you can't render to its original MTS/MVC format. When you select Sony AVC/MVC you have a maximum bit rate of 16Mbps, which is less than the 25 it records at. Plus if you try and create a side by side file the width stays at 1920, so you lose half your resolution. So I've been using line-alternate, but I'm really not sure if this is the best way to go. The other way I wanted to try was using MainConcept MPEG-2, which you can get 25Mbps but I can't get it to render without an error. And if I do get something rendered, playback is horrible on the computer, which is a 3.2 GHz Dual Quadcore Xeon, so it shouldn't be the hardware


5) Is there any way (or future hope of a way) to fix the burnt out highlights in 3D mode? 2D 60p is excellent, but the exposure (and color balance etc.) is not so great in 3D. I've been using the trick posted here of setting the exposure down to -1.0 EV in 2D mode then switching to 3D, thanks for that, but the problem is this also shuts off the auto convergence correction, which is really useful. And because of this I have to correct the convergence on most clips (which is the reason for question 1). Has anyone heard of a firmware update being planned etc.?


Thanks!


----------



## Don Landis

Quote:

but the problem is this also shuts off the auto convergence correction,
Not on my TD10. The manual knob/button: Push and hold for the list of available adjustemnts. rotate the knob to select the 3D Depth adjustment and then push the button again to save it. Now the button will toggle between auto adjust valid and invalid


If you rotate the knob you can clear up the convergence for unusual shooting distance like full wide and extreme closeup. In this example rotate the knob for to the little "-" sign on the left of the screen and you will see the image converge.


These adjustments are very difficult to set manually in the field and take time to do properly, especially when the shooting is outside. _I prefer to set the camera to auto and Intelligent auto ( lower right hand corner: iAuto tap the icon and set to "on" or green colored icon)and concentrate on getting pictures._ If I had all the time in the world and the world waited for me to get my camera ready, I would play with these settings. The auto setting does a good enough job but I understand my photography isn't super accurate. In this case I prefer quantity over perfect quality.


Hope this tip helps.


----------



## markr041

"Is there any way (or future hope of a way) to fix the burnt out highlights in 3D mode?"


Yes, use manual exposure, and dial down the expsoure. I use it all the time. Outside, I would say 80% of my shots use the manual setting to avoid overexposure. The screen gives a good idea on exposure, and if lighting conditions are not changing you can set and forget (for a while). This overexposure problem is not confined to 3D or even to Sony. My TM900, arguably the best 2D consumer videocam, requires setting manual exposure on bright days to avoid severe overexposure.


----------



## natiahs

Quick note: Sony's HXR-NX3D1 is now available from B&H. Anybody here planning on getting one? I'd like to pull the trigger, but the published list of upgrades from the TD10 doesn't look like its worth double the money.


N


----------



## Maxchance




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tonyfarley* /forum/post/20794873
> 
> 
> I just finished my first video with the Sony HDR-TD10. I used my MacBook Pro. I first had to convert the files to uncompressed with MTS Converter in Windows (using Bootcamp), then I went over to the Mac side and compressed to ProRes, then I used Final Cut Pro with the Dashwood 3D plugin to edit the video. Here is a link to both the video and more details about how I did it. Sorry, I can't post URL's here yet. Go to yosemitewithtony.com and you can see the blogpost.
> 
> 
> Tony



Tony, have you tried the simplified method of using Sony Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 10 Suite? I have yet to try it with Mac/Bootcamp, but I cannot imagine way it would not work and cut out all the extra processes?


M.


----------



## Zakowsky

Thanks Don, markr041 for the feedback. I guess what I really want to be able to do is leave it at -1.0 EV and turn on iAuto (which is a great function), but it obviously resets the EV adjustment. And yeah, adjusting those arrows in sunlight when you can't even see the scene is tough. I don't really see why you have to lock out so many controls in 3D manual mode, but maybe a firmware update will change this. Either way I'm still amazed with the camera; consumer 3D with this quality is awesome.


----------



## markr041

Whether you use ev shift or manual exposure, you still have to choose the setting, and thus you have to look at the screen in any case. It is easy to adjust manual exposure with the knob, and you do not have to leave 3D mode to do that. But setting ev is a problem, because you cannot change it and stay in 3D mode.


If the sun goes behind the clouds or you go to a shady area, you do not want ev -1, so you would have to change modes and then reset, then change modes again. iAuto would not do well as you would be underexposing in the darker areas or under clouds without having changed the ev.


My practice: In bright sun, set manual exposure using the lcd (it is actually easy to see the hot spots - make them disappear). Then out of bright sunlight just change to auto (one press of the button). Back in sunlight, go to manual and adjust. Auto does fine indoors (except under special lighting) and in shade - you really just need to adjust for bright light.


I am acutely sensitive to overexposure; it is the bane of many photographers who do not want to depart from auto mode. Most videos look washed out, or worse, as a consequence.


----------



## djamesb

Hey folks, just want to join up and say a Big Thank You for this forum and thread. I was on my way back to the Sony Store to return my HD10 tomorrow, but don't have to now. I now understand the 2 images are interlaced. Poor girl at the Sony said I couldn't save my 3d vid to HD and assuming the video file was the same as the bloggie, split screen.


Anyway, I can play back with my Cyberlink player and my NVidia card/glasses works great.


Thanks and will be asking some questions!!, and hopefully contribute.


----------



## Don Landis

I know it is just geek/nerd sacrilegious to read the manuals and in the case of Vegas Pro, to read the help files, but if most people here would just break with that taboo and go do a search on these resources the forum and thread would be 1/10 the size.


----------



## trevorjharris

"Read the manual" thats a revolutionary idea. I was going to buy Vegas Pro until I read here that it was virtually useless for 3D. Limited to 1080p24 and 720p50 at 10mb/s is rediculous. Interestingly enough the Mainconcept beta MVC encoder has the same limitations but will go up to 20mb/s. I wonder if Sony is using Mainconcept's code. I do feel that this lack of software support is going to limit the sale of 3D camcorders. The best bet for me at the moment is cineform Neo with premiere pro for editing and rendering side by side. We desperately need a reasonably priced 3D Blu-ray authorer. As far as I know Sony has not made any commitment to produce one.


I am pleased with the Sony TD10 as I can at least capture the video even if I can do very little with it.


----------



## natiahs

" I was going to buy Vegas Pro until I read here that it was virtually useless for 3D."


What Vegas does for its price is amazing. You can clean up 3D video by keyframing convergence adjustments across a clip, and the ability to overlay graphics is great (for creating 3D watermarks, for example). In addition, Vegas includes many of the same features I used to use After Effects for, such as compositing and color correction.


I know it would be ideal if professional tools were available for consumer prices, but bear in mind that dedicated 3D Blu-ray authoring package still costs five figures and the limitations become a lot easier to deal with.


The latest update has already changed how 3D Blu-rays are prepared in Vegas (you can now create a master iso in addition to directly burning to disk); I'd expect this functionality to continue to evolve in future releases.


N


----------



## markr041

"Limited to 1080p24 and 720p50 at 10mb/s is rediculous (sic)"


Here you go again. What you concluded is incorrect. You can output a bluray iso, 108024p or 720p50, at up to 26Mbps, if you know how to use the program. These two specific specs (ignoring the bitrate) were the only official bluray 3D specs up until very recently. That is not the fault of thee software program.


----------



## trevorjharris

Opps sorry I got it from the manual!. 26mb/s is much better. You have explained why the Mainconcept Beta is so limited. How are they going to be able to charge $4150 with Vegas being so much cheaper. I hope they will include 1080i50 soon, deinterlacing and changing frame rate is not good. I have always found deinterlacing to be a pain. I will try converting some of my clips to 1080p24 to see how good it is.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20823826
> 
> 
> "Limited to 1080p24 and 720p50 at 10mb/s is rediculous (sic)"
> 
> 
> Here you go again. What you concluded is incorrect. You can output a bluray iso, 108024p or 720p50, at up to 26Mbps, if you know how to use the program. These two specific specs (ignoring the bitrate) were the only official bluray 3D specs up until very recently. That is not the fault of thee software program.



Until very recently? Please point me to the update. If it has something to do with 1080i60 3D then that would seem to be on topic for the Sony TD10 here. Thanks.


----------



## emporer

I've now just created my first proper 3d bluray from the footage recorded on my TD10 whilst on holiday last week, a good 2 hours of stuff and mostly is very impressive. I do have a question about something though -


I have the TD10 in 3d mode with iauto enabled so effectively point and shoot, i've noticed on some of the clips I do get a kind of blurring, like a minor ghosting of whats there already. Although there is movement in the footage its not what i'd call quick (just kids running around etc). Ive only appeared to have this on a few bits of footage and some other clips with much quicker movement seem to be spot on with no issues.


Now i'm wondering if the problem is cam related or something to do with Sony Vegas (I created my disc @ 720p50), i've not yet had a look at the raw clip played back via the cam itself on the tv, thats my next thing to do as i'm suspecting they will show the same thing, although ive played back the clip in PMB in 2d and it appeared fine. I'll be looking at the original source clip later and seeing if the blurring is present.


If i'm correct and its on the source then i'm assuming its a problem with iauto changing scenes etc to what it thinks should be best. More testing me thinks!!!


----------



## djamesb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/20703935
> 
> 
> Richard,
> 
> 
> What you're getting with PowerDVD 11 is a 2D to 3D conversion of the left eye view. It's no better than what many HDMI 1.4 TVs, such as the Samsungs, do when they convert 2D to 3D on the fly. It can be a pleasant diversion (which it was when there was virtually no 3D content), but it's not close to the real thing.



Wow, PDVD 11 had me tricked, my wife too! Then again, the crispness wasn't there. Am I getting a true 3d from Nvidia's 1.7.2 player?!


Thanks again for the thread and will have to read the whole thing again and formulate my questions. I've got an 990x w3XGTX580's so should be able to crunch something. I need to make sure I get the right software.


I did upload several of my 1st vids to YouTube 3d via PMB. Is PMB splitting the vid file before uploading or is that more PDVD type magic?


Regards,

Dan


----------



## emporer

Ok, further to my question above, if it does turn out to be an issue from the TD10 side of things and not Vegas as I suspect, could it maybe be an issue with Steadyshot being active? I did think maybe it could be because Iauto was switching scenes but this has made me think a bit more now.


----------



## msv6001

1. Viewing content from camera straight to 3D TV.


From TD10E (3D set to frame packing) via HDMI 4 to Samsung 64D8000 (on TV 3D starts immediately, info on TV shows 50i1080) - image is very sharp and detailed, but every horizontal panning (even slow) cause blurring or ghosting, especially on back plane. Therefore, it is very uncomfortable.
*Is it usual, or it is problem with my camera or TV?*


From TD10E (3D set to SBS) via HDMI 4 to Samsung 64D8000 (on TV 3D starts after 1 second showing SBS, info on TV shows 50i1080) - image is sharp and detailed, no blurring, no ghosting even with fast motion. The picture seems slightly less detailed, but very comfortable for viewing, very impressive. 3D effects for me looks better than from most commercial 3D BD. *Who can tell me does Sony outputs full SBS or half SBS?
*

2. 3D BD created in Vegas 10E and played from 3D player LG660K to Samsung 64D8000 (on TV 3D starts immediately, info on TV shows 24p1080 or 50p720)


MVC 1920 24P - I am unable to view it, especially motion scenes.

MVC 1280 50P - it is viewable, but very far from SBS direct from camera to TV.


Also I have no idea how to make menus.


3. Rendering in Vegas 10E half SBS 1920*1080.50i (files can be played by almost any full HD player). I had used DUNE 3.0, and also players in Samsung TV and LG 3D blu ray player.


3.1. Sony MVC/AVC codec is limited to 21,9 Mbps and result is significantly better then Vegas 3D BD , but far from SBS direct from camera to TV.


3.2. Main concept AVC/AAC codec with bit rate starting from 30 Mbps result seems not worse than SBS direct from camera to TV.


3.3. Main concept MPEG-2 codec (main profile high level quality 31) with bit rate starting from 35 Mbps seems not worse than SBS direct from camera to TV.



What is the best with Main concept MPEG-2 coded files, they can be edited in Corel VS Pro X4 and DMF7 without re encoding. So you can make BD with 2D menus and 3D half SBS, but good quality (far better then Vegas MVC 1920 24P) content.

Of course, you can use half SBS files in DVDA pro 5.2, but they will be re encoded.


----------



## cdb1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *msv6001* /forum/post/20827607
> 
> 
> 1. Viewing content from camera straight to 3D TV.
> 
> 
> From TD10E (3D set to frame packing) via HDMI 4 to Samsung 64D8000 (on TV 3D starts immediately, info on TV shows 50i1080) - image is very sharp and detailed, but every horizontal panning (even slow) cause blurring or ghosting, especially on back plane. Therefore, it is very uncomfortable.
> *Is it usual, or it is problem with my camera or TV?*




I have an Acer HN27H and when viewed direct from my TD10E the picture is good and panning is smooth but I am getting some screen tear.


When viewed through powerdvd11, it doesn't recognise it as a 3d file, so converts what it thinks is a 2d file to 3d and at 24fps - panning is horrible and picture quality is poor at only 17MB/s


----------



## emporer

It is interesting that you find the 3d output from the TD10 to your TV better with SBS as opposed to frame packed, obviously the lower resolution would be noticable but it should be better using frame packed, ive yet to try mine on SBS but will try tonight with the footage i'm finding problematic, although for me its only a few scenes with minor blurring/ghosting.


1080p24 3dbd created in Vegas I find not great with any kind of motion, thus I use 720p50 and its very smooth, on my Samsung 50C680 I hardly notice any difference in resolution.


You cant make menu's with 3dbd in Vegas.


I do find it rather odd that you would find SBS better than frame packed output, even creating a 3dbd at 720p I personally think is much better than a half resolution SBS file.


----------



## NSX1992

After reading this post I ordered the Sony and yesterday shot a few minutes. I was very impressed with the sharpness and 3D effect on my 82" DLP. The viewfinder in 3D was excellent. I had expected a larger camera but it is only slightly larger than my Canon HV20. Also I was surprised how steady I could hold and pan the camera. Next week will be using it a lot on our 7 day cruise to Mexico.


----------



## emporer

Ok some interesting results for me tonight, I tried the footage I took and played it back directly from the TD10 to the tv, the problematic clips played perfectly without any issues of blurring so I can safely assume its not the source material (I think!), i'm thinking its now down to something in Sony Vegas, someone please correct me if i'm wrong. I find it odd though as its only on some scenes and not others, could it be that the TD10 is playing it back at 50i and the Vegas encode is at 50p? would that make the difference in some of the footage? surely if it were a Vegas issue the whole lot of footage I took would suffer from it?


----------



## emporer

I'm getting confused now! Ive just done a test render, exactly the same basic 720p50 settings in Vegas but I just imported the one clip which was the most problematic, only 2 mins long, it was perfect this time, no blurring etc. Can anyone explain to me what is happening? is it just Vegas not being very accurate? is it an issue rendering a long disc ie 2 hours playback? Is it something to do with keyframes?


Help!!


Don mentioned something about using 1 second keyframing to make the encode more accurate, think i'm going to give that a go, my only problem now is that I cant find any option in Vegas or anything related to keyframing, ive googled and not had any luck. Anyone use this?


----------



## NorthTV

OK, a new sub topic - Downloading to an External Media Device. I tried for the first time today to download my 3D videos from the Sony camcorder's internal memory to an external media device (USB attached hard drive - a WD My Passport Essential SE, 1 TB) All went well I think, but at the end when I got the message that the downloading was completed I did not get any prompt asking if I wanted to keep or delete the source data within the camera. Also the little icon that the paper manual said to click on when the loading was completed never appeared. (As a side note - the icon pictured is not shown anywhere else in the manual so I am not sure what it represents. It is the icon at the top right of page 48 where it states, "To disconnect the external media device 1. Touch [the icon] while the camcorder is in playback standby mode...") Anyone had similar experience and what does this icon represent? I did click on Menu to see if it would appear, but it did not. After putting the camera in playback mode the only thing that even remotely resembled the manual's icon was the internal memory icon which I clicked to no avail.


(On a separate note, after downloading [which took about an hour], I did turn the camera on without the USB attached hard drive plugged into the camcorder and it appears my data was still in the camera as I wanted. I just don't know if the download was successful to the hard drive and not sure how to find out short of hooking up the external drive to a computer since I will be keeping the same files on the camera's internal drive.)


Separately, I attempted to make a second download to another WD external USB hard drive (this one a 750 GB) as a further back-up. Any reason that should not have worked? I know the camera will search the original external USB attached hard drive to only download new files, but I assume a completely new hard drive would not be so restricted?


When I tried to connect the second external hard drive I got a message that the USB cable was not connected. I tried the USB cable from the first hard drive on the second one and got the same message so assume it was telling me that there was something wrong with the second hard drive and that it disconnected on purpose. Anyway, I got another WD hard drive (though a 1 TB like the first instead of the 750) and will be trying that tomorrow to rule out that assumption one way or the other.


In any event I'll be checking in the morning to see if there are any responses here to what I have described which may have raised any red flags prompting suggestions that I should be aware of before continuing.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20831328
> 
> 
> OK, a new sub topic. I tried for the first time today to download my 3D videos from the Sony camcorder's internal memory to a USB hard drive. All went well I think, but at the end I did not get any prompt asking if I wanted to keep or delete the source data within the camera. Also the little icon that the paper manual said to click on when the loading completed never appeared. (Also the icon pictured is not shown anywhere else in the manual so I am not sure what it represents.) Anyone had similar experience? (I did turn the camera on without the USB drive attached and it appears my data was still in the camera. I just don't know if the download was successful to the hard drive and not sure how to find out short of hooking up the external drive to a computer since I will be keeping the same files on the camera's internal drive.) It is my intention to make a second download to another external USB hard drive as a further back-up. Any reason that should not work? I know the camera will search the original external USB attached hard drive to only download new files, but I assume a completely new hard drive would not be so restricted?



Here's what I do with my external drive that connect directly to the TD10 without a computer in between. The drive is 1TB WD model WDBACX0010BBk-01 (per the drive sticker), which is a USB2 / USB3 WD passport drive.


1: Drive must be formatted FAT32. This means that files larger than 2GB won't store there unless broken into 2GB segments. The TD10 automatically does this splitting during recording. I formatted the drive once, back in May. FAT32 means that both Mac and Windows can access the files there. So the drive can also be used for direct access to store or retrieve backup data from a PC.


2: When I plug the drive into the TD10 and there are video files I haven't copied to the drive yet, from within the currently active storage device in the TD10 (internal or card, but not both at the exact same time) the TD10 lets me copy the files to the drive, as the first thing to do. So the USB drive is perfect for incremental backup, automatically managed by the TD10 - excellent. This is the so called "EASY COPY" function of the TD10. I have not tried to use a second compatible USB drive for a second backup. Instead, I backup the files after they are imported to the PC with PMB, using a different USB drive connected to the PC that is formatted NTFS so that files can be larger than 2GB, as PMB will join segments to make files larger than 2GB when they are imported to the PC.


3. All of the videos I ever backed up to the 1TB WD passport drive are playable through the TD10 when the drive is connected to the TD10. Excellent.


4. I can access the files that the TD10 copied to the usb drive when the usb drive is plugged directly into the PC, but the files are numbered differently when they are stored on the drive as compared with the file numbers in the memory of the TD10. The solution is to use the Sony supplied PMB software to import the files from either the camcorder or the USB drive when either is connected to a PC, as the PMB software manages the video files by date, and also provides other methods of organization besides file numbers. PMB allows trimming video files while retaining 3D content, but currently does not display 3D content. For 3D playback on the PC I use the separate "stereoscopic player" software.


5. I have other backup data stored on the 1TB drive besides videos. I stored these other backup files on the 1TB drive by direct PC USB access supported by Windows. This hasn't caused me any problems. The 1TB drive is half full and about 200gb of that is video managed by the TD10. I have not installed the WD supplied encryption software on the PC.


6. Another USB drive I have would not work directly with the TD10. This was listed by me back in May here in this thread. Since it wouldn't work directly with the TD10, that is the one I formatted NTFS with windows and backup my PMB managed content on the PC.


Summary-


A) I used the USB drive connected to the TD10 for backups and playback managed by the TD10.


B) I use an internal hard drive on the PC with PMB to manage videos from the TD10. I also use Sony Vegas for still frame captures in full SBS format. I have yet to burn a bluray with Vegas as I do not fancy the idea of having to convert my video to a lower bit rate, and haven't needed to distribute the 3D content to anyone else yet.


C) I use an NTFS formatted USB drive as a second backup, and also as a backup for the videos that I've trimmed with PMB.


D) I use "Stereoscopic Player" software to play back in 3D on the PC, and an LG D2342P monitor on the PC for 3D viewing using the passive RealD glasses from the theater.


With all this great stuff, who could ever go back to 2D?


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20831328
> 
> 
> OK, a new sub topic - Downloading to an External Media Device. I tried for the first time today to download my 3D videos from the Sony camcorder's internal memory to an external media device (USB attached hard drive - a WD My Passport Essential SE, 1 TB) All went well I think, but at the end when I got the message that the downloading was completed I did not get any prompt asking if I wanted to keep or delete the source data within the camera. Also the little icon that the paper manual said to click on when the loading was completed never appeared. (As a side note - the icon pictured is not shown anywhere else in the manual so I am not sure what it represents. It is the icon at the top right of page 48 where it states, "To disconnect the external media device 1. Touch [the icon] while the camcorder is in playback standby mode...") Anyone had similar experience and what does this icon represent? I did click on Menu to see if it would appear, but it did not. After putting the camera in playback mode the only thing that even remotely resembled the manual's icon was the internal memory icon which I clicked to no avail.
> 
> 
> (On a separate note, after downloading [which took about an hour], I did turn the camera on without the USB attached hard drive plugged into the camcorder and it appears my data was still in the camera as I wanted. I just don't know if the download was successful to the hard drive and not sure how to find out short of hooking up the external drive to a computer since I will be keeping the same files on the camera's internal drive.)
> 
> 
> Separately, I attempted to make a second download to another WD external USB hard drive (this one a 750 GB) as a further back-up. Any reason that should not have worked? I know the camera will search the original external USB attached hard drive to only download new files, but I assume a completely new hard drive would not be so restricted?
> 
> 
> When I tried to connect the second external hard drive I got a message that the USB cable was not connected. I tried the USB cable from the first hard drive on the second one and got the same message so assume it was telling me that there was something wrong with the second hard drive and that it disconnected on purpose. Anyway, I got another WD hard drive (though a 1 TB like the first instead of the 750) and will be trying that tomorrow to rule out that assumption one way or the other.
> 
> 
> In any event I'll be checking in the morning to see if there are any responses here to what I have described which may have raised any red flags prompting suggestions that I should be aware of before continuing.



Thanks Richard for your helpful response to some of my above questions. Any response to the "problems" I seem to be having disconnecting the external hard drive by following the instructions in the manual that refer to an icon that I fail to see? How do you complete and disconnect when the files have been transferred from the camcorder's internal drive to the external media device? Do you get a prompt that allows you to choose whether to keep the files on the camera's own memory or to delete it from the camera once it has been exported to the external hard drive?


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trevorjharris* /forum/post/20790696
> 
> 
> Actually I have just discovered you need a Quatro for Vegas Pro aswell to have a 3d secondary monitor using Nvidia Vision 3D. The issue is qud buffered stereo.



Yes that is right - I have pointed that out in the SCS-Forum some time ago. I can confirm that both Vegas Pro 10e but also Vegas Moviestudio 11 Platinum HD need a Quadro for nvidia 3D Vision (not pro).


For me a Quadro 2000D worked fine.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trevorjharris* /forum/post/20823025
> 
> 
> "Read the manual" thats a revolutionary idea. I was going to buy Vegas Pro until I read here that it was virtually useless for 3D. Limited to 1080p24 and 720p50 at 10mb/s is rediculous.



That is not correct. Vegas Pro 10e can be used with the Sony AVC/MVC encoder with data rates up to 25 mb/s.


That can be done in Vegas Moviestudio too - but you have to change the templates manually to that data rate, and can save the new template with your own name. Especially for PAL user it is important to know, that a 720 50p template can be generated too, what is available in Vegas Pro10e anyway.


Those templates can be used in Vegas to create 3D images from the timeline too - works fine.


----------



## JonStatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/20831933
> 
> 
> That is not correct. Vegas Pro 10e can be used with the Sony AVC/MVC encoder with data rates up to 25 mb/s.
> 
> 
> That can be done in Vegas Moviestudio too - but you have to change the templates manually to that data rate, and can save the new template with your own name. Especially for PAL user it is important to know, that a 720 50p template can be generated too, what is available in Vegas Pro10e anyway.
> 
> 
> Those templates can be used in Vegas to create 3D images from the timeline too - works fine.



At least for the European model, the real issue is the 50i to 24p conversion in Vegas which is resulting in all sorts of motion issues. The correct way to do this is to slow the speed down slightly to 48i, and then convert to 24p. However, this is not what Vegas is doing. It is hard to figure out exactly what Vegas is doing but it seems to be throwing frames away instead.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20831328
> 
> 
> OK, a new sub topic - Downloading to an External Media Device. I tried for the first time today to download my 3D videos from the Sony camcorder's internal memory to an external media device (USB attached hard drive - a WD My Passport Essential SE, 1 TB) All went well I think, but at the end when I got the message that the downloading was completed I did not get any prompt asking if I wanted to keep or delete the source data within the camera. Also the little icon that the paper manual said to click on when the loading was completed never appeared. (As a side note - the icon pictured is not shown anywhere else in the manual so I am not sure what it represents. It is the icon at the top right of page 48 where it states, "To disconnect the external media device 1. Touch [the icon] while the camcorder is in playback standby mode...") Anyone had similar experience and what does this icon represent? I did click on Menu to see if it would appear, but it did not. After putting the camera in playback mode the only thing that even remotely resembled the manual's icon was the internal memory icon which I clicked to no avail.
> 
> 
> (On a separate note, after downloading [which took about an hour], I did turn the camera on without the USB attached hard drive plugged into the camcorder and it appears my data was still in the camera as I wanted. I just don't know if the download was successful to the hard drive and not sure how to find out short of hooking up the external drive to a computer since I will be keeping the same files on the camera's internal drive.)
> 
> 
> Separately, I attempted to make a second download to another WD external USB hard drive (this one a 750 GB) as a further back-up. Any reason that should not have worked? I know the camera will search the original external USB attached hard drive to only download new files, but I assume a completely new hard drive would not be so restricted?
> 
> 
> When I tried to connect the second external hard drive I got a message that the USB cable was not connected. I tried the USB cable from the first hard drive on the second one and got the same message so assume it was telling me that there was something wrong with the second hard drive and that it disconnected on purpose. Anyway, I got another WD hard drive (though a 1 TB like the first instead of the 750) and will be trying that tomorrow to rule out that assumption one way or the other.
> 
> 
> In any event I'll be checking in the morning to see if there are any responses here to what I have described which may have raised any red flags prompting suggestions that I should be aware of before continuing.



Any help?


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20831773
> 
> 
> Thanks Richard for your helpful response to some of my above questions. Any response to the "problems" I seem to be having disconnecting the external hard drive by following the instructions in the manual that refer to an icon that I fail to see? How do you complete and disconnect when the files have been transferred from the camcorder's internal drive to the external media device? Do you get a prompt that allows you to choose whether to keep the files on the camera's own memory or to delete it from the camera once it has been exported to the external hard drive?



link for operating instruction manual
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/HDRTD10_EN_ES.pdf 


In my use with the "Easy Copy" mode, with the TD10 directly connected to the compatible USB drive, at the end of copying, the screen displays "completed" and the elapsed time for copying is shown. I press the "OK" in the upper left hand corner of the LCD.


Then, a screen appears which shows the external media playback selection screen. The date of the most recent videos is shown, with thumbnails from the most recent videos.


In the lower left hand corner there is an icon of the camcorder. Pressing this icon exits the external media access, opens the lens cover and enters the camcorder mode.


This is consistent with the step 6 and sub-step 1 on page 48 of manual linked above. What icon are you not seeing? Perhaps the .pdf manual is different and more up to date than the paper manual.


----------



## vsv

Splash Player reported average bitrate of left view is 13 Mbps only...

s****y interlace at this low bitrate with G lens (visible chromatic aberration at x10)...

Not happy with TD10


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JonStatt* /forum/post/20833075
> 
> 
> At least for the European model, the real issue is the 50i to 24p conversion in Vegas which is resulting in all sorts of motion issues. The correct way to do this is to slow the speed down slightly to 48i, and then convert to 24p. However, this is not what Vegas is doing. It is hard to figure out exactly what Vegas is doing but it seems to be throwing frames away instead.



A conversion from 1080 50i to 1080 24p is not easy - it can be done, but I prefer to convert to 720 50p. The reasons for that are quite clear: yes you have to deinterlace the footage (what means that you have to enable deinterlace in the project properties by choosing "blend" or "interpolate, but not by using "none"). And you have to scale the footage down from 1920x1080 to 720p. BUT you will not change the frame rate.


To change the frame rate requires an interpolation of every frame, but not if you go from 1080 50i to 720 50p. Vegas interpolates frames if you do convert to 1080 24p.


The way you describe can be done manually - but that is more work.


By the way, the limitation is not driven by Sony, but the 3D blu ray specification - what allows 1080 24p, 720 50p and 720 60p only. I would have liked to see in addition 1080 50i and 1080 60i too.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20833686
> 
> 
> link for operating instruction manual
> http://www.docs.sony.com/release/HDRTD10_EN_ES.pdf
> 
> 
> In my use with the "Easy Copy" mode, with the TD10 directly connected to the compatible USB drive, at the end of copying, the screen displays "completed" and the elapsed time for copying is shown. I press the "OK" in the upper left hand corner of the LCD.
> 
> 
> Then, a screen appears which shows the external media playback selection screen. The date of the most recent videos is shown, with thumbnails from the most recent videos.
> 
> 
> In the lower left hand corner there is an icon of the camcorder. Pressing this icon exits the external media access, opens the lens cover and enters the camcorder mode.
> 
> 
> This is consistent with the step 6 and sub-step 1 on page 48 of manual linked above. What icon are you not seeing? Perhaps the .pdf manual is different and more up to date than the paper manual.



Thanks - that was very helpful. I don't know why I did not see the camcorder icon yesterday but when I attempted to download onto a second USB connected hard drive today it was there. Unfortunately, however, the camera would not let me download onto a second drive as I hoped I could do. I did connect the first drive to my computer and confirmed that yesterday's download was successful - at least for the 2D highlights I had saved and there were streaming clips of some 400 files that I could play individually in 2D on my computer. I assume the 3D files are also there though I was unable to access them with the computer.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20834514
> 
> 
> Thanks - that was very helpful. I don't know why I did not see the camcorder icon yesterday but when I attempted to download onto a second USB connected hard drive today it was there. Unfortunately, however, the camera would not let me download onto a second drive as I hoped I could do. I did connect the first drive to my computer and confirmed that yesterday's download was successful - at least for the 2D highlights I had saved and there were streaming clips of some 400 files that I could play individually in 2D on my computer. I assume the 3D files are also there though I was unable to access them with the computer.



If you recorded in 3D mode, only 1 file results that contains both the the 2D and 3D content in it.


The 2D part is the information for one eye. 3D is when the information for both eyes is played.


Player software such as PMB and VLC only play the 2D part, and ignore the 3D part. Power DVD11 plays the 2D part, ignores the 3D information, and synthesizes a weak pseudo-3D playback.


The method I use to play back files so I can see the 3D on a 3D compatible monitor connected to my computer is the "stereoscopic player" software, available from the link below, including a version which plays 5 minutes at a time for trial / free.

http://www.3dtv.at/Downloads/Index_en.aspx 


This is the only way I get a true 3D playback from the TD10 camcorder files stored on the PC hard drive. Other playback methods include making a bluray disk, and directly connecting the TD10 to the monitor, but neither of these are playing the files on the PC hard drive directly as the "stereoscopic player" does.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20833686
> 
> 
> link for operating instruction manual
> http://www.docs.sony.com/release/HDRTD10_EN_ES.pdf
> 
> 
> In my use with the "Easy Copy" mode, with the TD10 directly connected to the compatible USB drive, at the end of copying, the screen displays "completed" and the elapsed time for copying is shown. I press the "OK" in the upper left hand corner of the LCD.
> 
> 
> Then, a screen appears which shows the external media playback selection screen. The date of the most recent videos is shown, with thumbnails from the most recent videos.
> 
> 
> In the lower left hand corner there is an icon of the camcorder. Pressing this icon exits the external media access, opens the lens cover and enters the camcorder mode.
> 
> 
> This is consistent with the step 6 and sub-step 1 on page 48 of manual linked above. What icon are you not seeing? Perhaps the .pdf manual is different and more up to date than the paper manual.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20835508
> 
> 
> If you recorded in 3D mode, only 1 file results that contains both the the 2D and 3D content in it.
> 
> 
> The 2D part is the information for one eye. 3D is when the information for both eyes is played.
> 
> 
> Player software such as PMB and VLC only play the 2D part, and ignore the 3D part. Power DVD11 plays the 2D part, ignores the 3D information, and synthesizes a weak pseudo-3D playback.
> 
> 
> The method I use to play back files so I can see the 3D on a 3D compatible monitor connected to my computer is the "stereoscopic player" software, available from the link below, including a version which plays 5 minutes at a time for trial / free.
> 
> http://www.3dtv.at/Downloads/Index_en.aspx
> 
> 
> This is the only way I get a true 3D playback from the TD10 camcorder files stored on the PC hard drive. Other playback methods include making a bluray disk, and directly connecting the TD10 to the monitor, but neither of these are playing the files on the PC hard drive directly as the "stereoscopic player" does.



Thanks again. I do have a Toshiba 3D laptop (though I have never used the 3D feature on it) and it is apparently loaded with some Nividia 3D drivers. Curious if this would allow for 3D viewing as your "steroscopic player" does? Admittedly, I don't have a whole lot of motivation to experiment since I prefer the bigger picture available on my 3D TV even though it requires playing 3D video back through the 3D camcorder.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20836550
> 
> 
> Thanks again. I do have a Toshiba 3D laptop (though I have never used the 3D feature on it) and it is apparently loaded with some Nividia 3D drivers. Curious if this would allow for 3D viewing as your "steroscopic player" does? Admittedly, I don't have a whole lot of motivation to experiment since I prefer the bigger picture available on my 3D TV even though it requires playing 3D video back through the 3D camcorder.



Typical players that support 3D are intended for use with bluray optical disks as the source of the 3D content, and may not play true 3D from TD10 files directly using the vendor supplied software. I am thinking that your 3D laptop has a bluray drive for this purpose.


On the other hand, that Stereoscopic Player would be used on your Toshiba Laptop if you wanted to watch the TD10 3D files instead of a bluray, since the Stereoscopic Player supports "Nvidia 3D Vision" LCD shutter glasses in its selection of supported view methods.


----------



## iWATCH3D

Hi guys/gals. I though it might be a long shot but I still decided to make a petition for Sony to release, even a paid firmware upgrade for our HDR-TD10's to make them do all that HXR-NX3D1's do , apart from having the XLR mic, handle and ND filter.


So what do you say, can we get some signatures here ?
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/h...mware-upgrade/ 


If you know anybody with HDR-TD10 or someone that even want to buy one, please ask them to sign it ! It might be a fools dream but we have spent enough on it to ask for some simple manual controls, 24p and overlay viewing mode rather then constant autostereoscopic 3D. It's not much to ask for.


Let's make it happen !


----------



## NorthTV

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* 
Typical players that support 3D are intended for use with bluray optical disks as the source of the 3D content, and may not play true 3D from TD10 files directly using the vendor supplied software. I am thinking that your 3D laptop has a bluray drive for this purpose.


On the other hand, that Stereoscopic Player would be used on your Toshiba Laptop if you wanted to watch the TD10 3D files instead of a bluray, since the Stereoscopic Player supports "Nvidia 3D Vision" LCD shutter glasses in its selection of supported view methods.
Thanks again, again. You are correct on all accounts as it is intended for use with bluray optical discs as the source of 3D content and it did come with the glasses. (Toshiba Satellite A665-3DV with logo on the front reading, "nvidea 3D Vision") I bought it when it first came out and all of the needed 3D software was not initially available. Hopefully the updates I have tried to install have remedied that though once I got a 3D TV that has been the focus for my 3D viewing.


----------



## vsv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iWATCH3D* /forum/post/20841008
> 
> 
> So what do you say, can we get some signatures here ?
> http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/h...mware-upgrade/
> 
> 
> 
> Let's make it happen !



Good to be belliever







With fw upgrade waiting for

- increased bitrate for MVC up to 28Mbps or more (now only 20Mbps! - 1 min of any file is ~200MB)

- SBS mode for 1080p60(50)


----------



## markr041

"increased bitrate for MVC up to 28Mbps or more (now only 20Mbps..."


I am confused; the spec right now for MVC on the camcorder is 28Mbps, right?


----------



## vsv

The "spec" say also fullHD, but imo 1080*i*nterlace is FoolHD









Shoot 1min of 3D MVC video and calculate real bitrate.


----------



## markr041

The actual bitrate depends on the scene; that is the point about *variable* bitrate. So one arbitrary short scene may reveal little about the maximum. The fact is the maximum MVC bitrate is 28Mbps (combined, two channels); that is not rhetoric like "full" HD. And, any reading of bitrate by software must obtain the bitrate for each channel.


I just used MediaInfo to analyze a single Sony MVC clip (of 10 seconds) right from the camcorder. It reports that the "overall" bitrate is 26.4 Mbps, and the "maximum" bitrate is 28Mbps.


Maybe Mediainfo is conspiring with Sony to report false information, or maybe you do not know what you are talking about, on this issue. I do agree with you that hoping for a firmware upgrade is fruitless.


----------



## Frank

I recently tried shooting some video of a Lake Superior sailboat race with one of my Sony HDR-TD10s and besides the fact that I didn't get acceptable results, I was quite frustrated with my inability to see the LCD screen at all.

This really becomes a problem when I can't even tell if it's recording or not since there is no indication other then on the screen which I can't see.


----------



## markr041

"This really becomes a problem when I can't even tell if it's recording or not since there is no indication other then on the screen which I can't see."


I guess you can't read either: there is a recording lamp on the camera (p. 87, manual).


Granted, it's in the front, but it's there and its red.


And, by the way, I can see the screen in bright light, not very well, but I can see it (including on the beach), enough to know not only whether but what I am shooting.


But I of course agree that a viewfinder is very useful, if that is the point other than sympathy for your vision handicap.


I really dislike negative rants (which usually are also incorrect), but nothing personal: I love the videos and the gear.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20850454
> 
> 
> "This really becomes a problem when I can't even tell if it's recording or not since there is no indication other then on the screen which I can't see."
> 
> 
> I guess you can't read either: there is a recording lamp on the camera (p. 87, manual).
> 
> 
> Granted, it's in the front, but it's there and its red.
> 
> 
> And, by the way, I can see the screen in bright light, not very well, but I can see it (including on the beach), enough to know not only whether but what I am shooting.
> 
> 
> But I of course agree that a viewfinder is very useful, if that is the point other than sympathy for your vision handicap.
> 
> 
> I really dislike negative rants (which usually are also incorrect), but nothing personal: I love the videos and the gear.



You can call it a "rant" if you prefer.









I would actually like to have some good results with these cameras and am always looking for *useful* suggestions.

The recording LED on the other end of the camera is of no use whatsoever (yes, I actually can read) but I'm glad you can see the display.
*Nobody I've shown it to can see it in the same situation either by the way.* Perhaps both of mine have a defective screen?


----------



## markr041

It is *useful* to correct misinformation, like the incorrect info you gave on the recording indication.


Maybe change your friends?


And the problem with the using a high-resolution lcd screen in bright light is well known, and, more importantly, Don gave us *useful* info on using a Hoodman, with part number, to deal with it. So if you *read* the thread, along with the manual, you would have already seen a discussion of this and one solution.


Search for 'Hoodman.' *Useful*?


And, you could add a mirror to the front, at angle on your rig, so you can see the tally light you had no idea was on the camera. *Useful*?


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20850538
> 
> 
> It is *useful* to correct misinformation, like the incorrect info you gave on the recording indication.
> 
> 
> Maybe change your friends?
> 
> 
> And the problem with the using a high-resolution lcd screen in bright light is well known, and, more importantly, Don gave us *useful* info on using a Hoodman, with part number, to deal with it. So if you *read* the thread, along with the manual, you would have already seen a discussion of this and one solution.
> 
> 
> Search for 'Hoodman.' *Useful*?



I read the entire thread and am familiar with the "Hoodman" as if you care.


You are now entering my ignore list.

Feel free to put me on yours if you like.


----------



## Don Landis

Hey Frank- Hoodman is in business for a reason. Pros have been using hoods on monitors for decades. I don't care if it's a Sony 8020 CRT or an LCD screen on a broadcast HDCAM, they all are bad in bright sunlight.


But aside from the Hoodman, I will often just hit the 2D screen button on the side of the camera as the 2D mode adds significantly more brightness. This is important to me if I started shooting something important and didn't have the Hoodman on. Doing this will usually add enough monitor to be able to frame the shot.


To save you the trouble of searching for my reference, the model number of the Hoodman is HD-450. If I'm shooting out doors, I carry the Hoodman the same as a ziplock bag to protect from a rain cloud and a couple extra batteries on _every_ shoot.


I ditto Mark's comment on the rant attitude posts. I don't mind rants as long as the info is correct. Bad attitude and bad reason is annoying.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20850717
> 
> 
> Hey Frank- Hoodman is in business for a reason. Pros have been using hoods on monitors for decades. I don't care if it's a Sony 8020 CRT or an LCD screen on a broadcast HDCAM, they all are bad in bright sunlight.
> 
> 
> But aside from the Hoodman, I will often just hit the 2D screen button on the side of the camera as the 2D mode adds significantly more brightness. This is important to me if I started shooting something important and didn't have the Hoodman on. Doing this will usually add enough monitor to be able to frame the shot.
> 
> 
> To save you the trouble of searching for my reference, the model number of the Hoodman is HD-450. If I'm shooting out doors, I carry the Hoodman the same as a ziplock bag to protect from a rain cloud and a couple extra batteries on _every_ shoot.
> 
> 
> I ditto Mark's comment on the rant attitude posts. I don't mind rants as long as the info is correct. Bad attitude and bad reason is annoying.



When the Sony is mounted on my stabilizer, I can't just turn the thing around to see the LCD indicator on the other side now can I?

Much of the video I shot was ruined because I thought it was recording when it was not.

My information was not incorrect, just incomplete I suppose.

The fact is, I can see my Iphone 4 screen and my Canon screens in the same conditions and I had assumed I would be able to see the Sony screen as well.

Holding my eye up to a Hoodman seems impractical to me in the conditions I'm shooting in but I'll look into it.


----------



## Frank

I just decided I'm going to ask my friend to build me a little circuit to convert the flashing red record indicator on the lens side of the Sony to a bright blue LED on the side I can actually see.

Problem solved!


----------



## Don Landis

Good for you! Idea- tell him to check out fiber optics. May not be bright enough. I'd be curious how difficult it will be for him to get at the circuit board near the lens to access the existing LED connections. These new consumer camcorders are really compact inside. I have seen the Sony glass case display of the TD10 opened up and I don't envy him if he tries to take one apart.



Hoodman also makes a loupe with adapter rubber to use but you don't want this as it is for 2D. I bought one and it is worthless. Never use it.


My SOP these days is to just shoot with auto mode on and put the screen in 2D which is brighter by a little bit. Then if still having trouble I break out the Hoodman. No need to stick your face up against it. I just look at it from normal shooting distance and it makes everything easy to see.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20852809
> 
> 
> Good for you! Idea- tell him to check out fiber optics. May not be bright enough. I'd be curious how difficult it will be for him to get at the circuit board near the lens to access the existing LED connections. These new consumer camcorders are really compact inside. I have seen the Sony glass case display of the TD10 opened up and I don't envy him if he tries to take one apart.



That's not what I had in mind.

I'm going to suggest that he just put the circuit in a small box with a photo sensor that I'll stick on the flashing red LED on the front of the camera and run a wire with the blue LED and stick it on the front of the camera. Quite simple really. I could power it with the 5VDV from the LANC port but probably won't as that will eliminate the composite video which I like to use.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20852809
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hoodman also makes a loupe with adapter rubber to use but you don't want this as it is for 2D. I bought one and it is worthless. Never use it.
> 
> 
> My SOP these days is to just shoot with auto mode on and put the screen in 2D which is brighter by a little bit. Then if still having trouble I break out the Hoodman. No need to stick your face up against it. I just look at it from normal shooting distance and it makes everything easy to see.



I'm going to try to fabricate a sun shield for my TD-10s this afternoon and see what I can do.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20850717
> 
> 
> Hey Frank- Hoodman is in business for a reason. Pros have been using hoods on monitors for decades. I don't care if it's a Sony 8020 CRT or an LCD screen on a broadcast HDCAM, they all are bad in bright sunlight.
> 
> 
> But aside from the Hoodman, I will often just hit the 2D screen button on the side of the camera as the 2D mode adds significantly more brightness. This is important to me if I started shooting something important and didn't have the Hoodman on. Doing this will usually add enough monitor to be able to frame the shot.
> 
> 
> To save you the trouble of searching for my reference, the model number of the Hoodman is HD-450. If I'm shooting out doors, I carry the Hoodman the same as a ziplock bag to protect from a rain cloud and a couple extra batteries on _every_ shoot.
> 
> 
> I ditto Mark's comment on the rant attitude posts. I don't mind rants as long as the info is correct. Bad attitude and bad reason is annoying.



I quickly learned the first day outdoors, at Disney World Animal Kingdom last May, to always put the screen in 2D mode. The camcorder still records 3D, but I can actually see the screen and the red REC indication on screen, as opposed to the green letters of the non-recording indication.


The family got mad when I realized I hadn't been recording, and we all had to backtrack to stand by the dinosaur statue again. It was a good lesson to always hit the 2D button right there next to the display when outdoors. This is obviously 99% why that 2D button is right there for direct access.


I'll bet I was the first one on the planet to use the TD10 at Animal Kingdom.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20853110
> 
> 
> I'll bet I was the first one on the planet to use the TD10 at Animal Kingdom.




That is a cool thing about shooting video in 3D with these new 3D camcorders and the TD10 in particular is more often than not you are capturing subject matter that has never been recorded in 3D video before since most 3D filming in the past has been done by film. OK, here is my likely 1st list:


A Hawaiian Luau taken at sunset overlooking Waikiki


A professional Magic Show, Shave Ice making, and a Hawaiin Band performing at a Child's First Birthday Party


A Japanese Bon Festival at a Japanese Shrine in Oahu


Halibut Fishing off Homer, Alaska in Cook Inlet


An outdoor wedding in Alaska


Fishing the Seward Silver Salmon Derby in Nine Foot Swells in Resurrection Bay


----------



## Frank

When I used it on my stabilizer out on my boat the other day and couldn't tell if it was recording or not, the display was in fact in 3D mode.

I just did some experiments in the sun with it in 2D mode and was able to tell if it was recording or not but just barely.

No need to comment on my bad vision as I have already stated that my eyesight is not very good. (been putting off retina surgery.)


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> I'll bet I was the first one on the planet to use the TD10 at Animal Kingdom.



Maybe you did beat me by a day or two Richard, but I'll bet I beat you publishing an edited production to YouTube.


I was there on May 22. On the 21st we went to Epcot.


I love Disney.


We went to Universal two weekends ago. Wife was there for a big insurance meeting so we stayed an extra day and saw the Harry Potter village at Universal. Universal is more expensive than Disney.


----------



## markr041

I beat you all: first use of the TD10 and any 3D camera in Sunshine City Shopping Mall, NT, Hong Kong!


Inexpensive.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20853881
> 
> 
> I beat you all: first use of the TD10 and any 3D camera in Sunshine City Shopping Mall, NT, Hong Kong!
> 
> 
> Inexpensive.



You're probably right about that, though Don and I were comparing Disney World dates. Are you sure about this since there prior 3D cameras? What date is your claim actually?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20853881
> 
> 
> I beat you all: first use of the TD10 and any 3D camera in Sunshine City Shopping Mall, NT, Hong Kong!
> 
> 
> Inexpensive.




I don't think so. I thought Icerat4 was the first to own one ( in the US) and shoot video we all saw here. But if you are referring to trying one out, I shot one at CES in January the opening day. Other than the rep there (Sony Employee) I was the first one at CES to pick it up and try it out. It was love at first sight!







But Richard and I were talking about first at Animal Kingdom.


----------



## Don Landis

Richard- When at Epcot waiting for the fireworks, I had several Disney employees come up and ask about the TD10. They knew about 3D but had no idea it was available in a camcorder and without glasses. I gave them quite a demo as we waited for the show to start.


----------



## markr041

Hey, guys,


I was not claiming I was the first to own or use a TD10. Full stop. The claim was I was the first to use one in this shopping mall in Hong Kong, while you were at those boring Disney places. Maybe I needed to use a







.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20853392
> 
> 
> Maybe you did beat me by a day or two Richard, but I'll bet I beat you publishing an edited production to YouTube.
> 
> 
> I was there on May 22. On the 21st we went to Epcot.
> 
> 
> I love Disney.
> 
> 
> We went to Universal two weekends ago. Wife was there for a big insurance meeting so we stayed an extra day and saw the Harry Potter village at Universal. Universal is more expensive than Disney.



Universal more expensive? I suppose so if you eat at Universal's Emeril's and skip the Brown Derby, Coral Reef, and Cinderella's Castle at Disney


It's a photo finish for the Sony TD10 3D at Animal Kingdom, as I was also there on the 22nd. I fired up PMB, which gives the date and time. Judges: for a photo finish my time stamp shows 9:40AM on May 22 as the time of my first clip there just inside the security area. What's your time stamp on the 22nd Don?


Epcot - our clan decided to skip that on this trip, so I have no 1st video to compare for that. You win. We did see Magic Kingdom and Disney Studios though. Only missed Epcot.


May 21st was my 3rd daughter's wedding on top of the Castle Hotel in Orlando. At times other than when I walked the bride down the aisle, the video from my TD10 was 10x better than the video from the pro with the Cannon HD camcorder. Must have been an older Canon used on the purchased wedding video. He should have used a polarizer. Even without a polarizer, the video from the TD10 was great.


What a coincidence that both of us were at Animal Kingdom on the same day. My time stamp for the showing of the Lion King four sided stadium seating show was 4:35PM. Did you see that one?

But I was at Disney Quest / Disney Pleasure Island on May 20th with the TD10. Have you played the 3D multi-player Pirates game at Disney Quest? The 20th for the category of "any Disney World attraction" has me as the winner overall.


Haven't posted any 3D anything in public yet. You win on that one.


I did both Universal Islands of Adventure with Harry Potter and Universal Studios on May 25th, and left Florida that evening to avoid the "high priced" season, which seems to be an oxymoron...


Good thing PMB has the actual date and time for the TD10 recordings, which means my post is on topic.


----------



## cdb1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/20853110
> 
> 
> 
> The family got mad when I realized I hadn't been recording, and we all had to backtrack to stand by the dinosaur statue again.




I think the touchscreen is abit sensetive at times. I've gone to press the record button and it registers two touches instead of one, so it starts recording then stops recording immediately. If you don't notice, it throws your start/stop sequence out until you realise you're stopping not starting and vice versa.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> I think the touchscreen is abit sensetive at times. I've gone to press the record button and it registers two touches instead of one, so it starts recording then stops recording immediately. If you don't notice, it throws your start/stop sequence out until you realise you're stopping not starting and vice versa.



You can kill the on screen record spot by turning on the record time display. I used the on screen record button once in a while but find the record timer more useful so that has become my usual setup. Don't miss the onscreen record button at all.


----------



## Don Landis

Yes, quite a coincidence Richard. It's good we didn't run into each other or we would have spent the whole day jaw jacking and not shooting. OK you win! I had to pull up my first shot that day of Animal Kingdom, see below. You were in about an hour before me.


As for cost- I have FL residents discounts on Disney tickets and 20% off on all restaurants. Fast Pass is free at Disney. Souvinirs are 15% discount. Bottom line is I save quite a bit that I don't get at Universal. The Express pass or whatever they called it nearly doubled my day ticket cost which was $85. I did get 15% hotel discounts on all restaurants and souvenirs, however.


My Fl residents multi day lifetime pass puts me at $35 per day. Universal was a smaller park and cost us $85 per day plus a $65 for express pass which I did not buy. There was no lifetime multiday either. Regardless Universal was fun and I can see going back with my grandson when he is 4 or 5. I thought Universal had more and better rides for youngsters.


Lion King was shot beginning at 1:39PM so I did beat you on that one. The production unedited except for splitting into 3 clips in Vegas for timing is on my YouTube channel. You should go to my YouTube channel: DonLandis and check out what I have edited up there from Disney. I also have a long version of Animal Kingdom that isn't up there. Had it up for a short while but YouTube took it down because the file size was so large. It included the jungle tour which was quite bouncy. We also spent a day 23rd at Magic Kingdom but I haven't edited anything from there yet.



> Quote:
> But I was at Disney Quest / Disney Pleasure Island on May 20th with the TD10. Have you played the 3D multi-player Pirates game at Disney Quest? The 20th for the category of "any Disney World attraction" has me as the winner overall.



I was at Downtown Disney on Friday at 9:42AM walking around. Wife had a business meeting that morning so I was just killing time. We stayed at the hotel across the street, The Wyndham. This location makes for easy walk across the street access to Downtown Disney. Also good for an evening stroll to include Pleasure Island. My first 3D video production was a tour through that area shots completed in the evening of the 20th. The second production was part of that tour and is posted on YouTube- I called it "Mostly Mozart" It was of the Italian quintet group but I can't recall their name. It looks like 4 musicians but the 5th played an ipad keyboard and was in the audience, had the ipad linked with wireless mic to the board. They were located out in front of the Fulton House. So, Richard, were you shooting before 9:42 AM on the 20th at that Disney location?


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20856039
> 
> 
> 
> So, Richard, were you shooting before 9:42 AM on the 20th at that Disney location?



According to time stamp from Sony PMB, I was recording with the TD10 facing the parking lot side of the Disney Quest / AMC Theater locale at 9:28AM on the 20th. We went shopping and eating first. Then went to Disney Quest when it opened, followed by wedding rehearsal and then a party to mingle with the groom's relatives from MN at a rented house nearby.


I have a brother and sister who are FL residents, though haven't figured out a way / forgot to ask about discounts using their residency.


At Universal on the 25th, did both parks in one day with double park fast pass picking and choosing. I have TD10 3D video for the Harry Potter's Butter Beer and Pumpkin Juice purchase and toast, though didn't have time to chat with Shrek's donkey this trip.


I found your youtube channel and see you have SBS videos from the Sony TD10 that I will play later today when I'm at my video office computer.


Youtube staff allows some people longer videos. I know one person with that privilege. The reasons how and why youtube grants that privilege are obscure.


If a person posts youtube videos with copyrighted material / music performances playing in the background, youtube might automatically delete the video and take away the privilege to post long videos. This can be as innocent as copyright Disney music playing in the background at the theme park. Was there any flak about Epcot fireworks, as I remember that has a lot of music in it? (didn't watch yours yet).


I have great 3D TD10 video of the Magic Kingdom parade / fireworks which I'm reluctant to post on youtube.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> I have a brother and sister who are FL residents, though haven't figured out a way / forgot to ask about discounts using their residency.



Give Disney a little more credit- They use a picture ID with Florida residence and also finger print scan so your Fl Residents pass is loaded with ID. I don't know anyone who has figured out how to cheat the system legal documents. Of course counterfeit can also be used if you are into that sort of lifestyle.


The copyright issues are interesting with You Tube. No doubt in my mind that technically, any distribution of a recording of copyrighted music is outside the Fair Use provision. Having said that, There is still a huge quantity copyright violations on YouTube. What it demonstrates is a society that is not in sync with the laws. Therefore there is little to no enforcement. It is a random stoppage. I got the notice attached to some of my videos but they have not been taken down. I also have long run time privileges. But it seems there is a balance between long run time and file size.

Bottom line- There appears to be no evenly enforced You Tube rules. It is most inconsistent.


----------



## emporer

Does anybody think Sony will update the f/w on the TD10 to be compatible with AVCHD 2.0? Ive been reading about this today and its most interesting, currently with my PAL TD10 I record my 3D stuff and convert using Vegas 10e to 720p50 3dbd's, all is great but obviously there is a drop in resolution, I did notice the AVCHD 2.0 standard now includes 1080i25, my TD10 records at 1080i50 for 3d I think, would 1080i25 work better rather than currently converting to 720p50? or if Sony dont update then would Vegas be able to do this?


----------



## cdb1

Quote:

Originally Posted by *emporer* 
Does anybody think Sony will update the f/w on the TD10 to be compatible with AVCHD 2.0? Ive been reading about this today and its most interesting, currently with my PAL TD10 I record my 3D stuff and convert using Vegas 10e to 720p50 3dbd's, all is great but obviously there is a drop in resolution, I did notice the AVCHD 2.0 standard now includes 1080i25, my TD10 records at 1080i50 for 3d I think, would 1080i25 work better rather than currently converting to 720p50? or if Sony dont update then would Vegas be able to do this?
Where did you find 1080i25? It's not mentioned in the AVCHD 2 specs that I can see.

http://www.avchd-info.org/format/index.html 


If 720p50 looks worse than 1080i50 then why convert and not just burn the 1080i 3dbd?


----------



## Andrew_Woods

Has anyone found a nice case (with a shoulder strap) which snugly fits just the TD10?

Any suggestions?


----------



## emporer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cdb1* /forum/post/20875207
> 
> 
> Where did you find 1080i25? It's not mentioned in the AVCHD 2 specs that I can see.
> 
> http://www.avchd-info.org/format/index.html
> 
> 
> If 720p50 looks worse than 1080i50 then why convert and not just burn the 1080i 3dbd?



On the Wikipedia entry for AVCHD it states 25i for stereoscopic under rev 2.0.


Also I convert to 720p50 because its the only way to create a disc from the TD10 that is smooth and looks good, the current 3d bluray spec doesnt allow for 1080i50 which the TD10 records in 3d so to have a playable disc it has to be converted, i'm talking about a proper 3d disc too and not SBS stuff, ive experimented with 1080p24 and the motion is awful, due to the interlaced source material from the TD10 but 720p50 is lovely. Obviously the best way would be to burn and play back the stuff exactly as it comes off the TD10 but currently its no possible.


----------



## cdb1

The wiki page seems to have taken the AVCHD specs and halved all the interlace modes.







So if AVCHD says 50i, Wiki says 25i


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *emporer* /forum/post/20876211
> 
> 
> Also I convert to 720p50 because its the only way to create a disc from the TD10 that is smooth and looks good, the current 3d bluray spec doesnt allow for 1080i50 which the TD10 records in 3d so to have a playable disc it has to be converted, i'm talking about a proper 3d disc too and not SBS stuff, ive experimented with 1080p24 and the motion is awful, due to the interlaced source material from the TD10 but 720p50 is lovely. Obviously the best way would be to burn and play back the stuff exactly as it comes off the TD10 but currently its no possible.



Yes, I completely agree with that - that is also the way I do it. The conversion to 1080 24p has significant losses, for example in movements. But 720 50p is fine - when you start from 1080 50i. If your footage is 1080 60i, encode to 720 60i off course.


----------



## NSX1992

Last night watched the video from our Mexican 7day cruise.This was my first extensive use of my new camcorder. Overall the results were excellent. The best 3D effects were from taking videos of the food-great popout. Also taking videos along the railings produced great depth. Taking videos indoors was also good as the Sony worked well in low light.


The biggest annoying problem was not being able to see the screen in broad daylight and thus avoiding zoom shots. Thanks to this forum I did place the screen to 2D which helped a little. I have ordered the hood which hopefully will solve the problem.


I enjoyed showing off the Sony and seeing amazement as they viewed the scenes in 3D without glasses. Watching home movies will now be more enjoyable.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

I tested such a hood - if that is what you mean:

http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B004...ef=oss_product 


It works fine, it helps against direct sunlight, but nothing against the mirror imaging from your own face - what is strong if you work in direct sunlight.


----------



## Don Landis

NSX1992- FWIW- I carry my HD-450 Hoodman with me all the time when shooting outdoors the same as if I'm carrying spare batteries.


----------



## NSX1992

I ordered the 450 Hoodman per Dons recommendation.


----------



## NorthTV

RE: Highlight Feature


I really like the Highlight Feature that is built into the Sony but what I have found interesting is that you can get more than one different set of highlights from the day of shooting. Does anyone know just how the camera selects its highlights and why they are not the same each time? Also I like the Save feature that allows the highlights to be saved, albeit only in 2D when saved. Curious why they cannot be saved to 3D? Finally while the canned music that accompanies the highlights is a nice touch, it would be nice to have a selection of different music so it is not the same tune each time. I wonder if Sony might offer a software update that would allow for more than one?


----------



## Don Landis

I only played with highlight once to see what it did so I can't help you much but I do know that using PMB you can upload your own music to the proper folder in the TD10 for use there. I don't recall the details but if you review the manual, I think that is where I saw the step by step. I believe it replaces the Sony selection so you may want to investigate how to save the Sony music files as well.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

I think the 450 Hoodman is good - even if I see the disadvantage that you will not be able to see the 3D picture as 3D any more - but at least you see a picture!










But the size - it has 3.0 zoll, the TD10 has a 3.5 zoll monitor?


----------



## Don Landis

Wolfgang- The HD450 is a perfect fit for the TD10. It is 4.5" diagonal or 3.7" width. 16x9 aspect ratio.

What is "zoll"?



With the HD450:

You can retain 3D autostereographic viewing just fine. The only disadvantage of using the Hoodman is that it prevents you from touching the screen for any touch control. There are other hoods that use 3 sides with the bottom open. These allow better access to the touch screen but also are less effective in high bright light.


The only Hoodman device that prevents one from seeing the autostereo screen is the loupe adapter with rubber expansion for the 4.5" diagonal screen. The reason why it does not work for 3D is because the loupe is a single eye viewing. That hood is meant for 2D work only.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Oh sorry, zoll is the German word for inch.


Yes, I mixed it up with the Loup but had another look to google and see now what you mean.


The difference to what I have ordered here
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B004...ef=oss_product 


some time ago is that the HD450 seems to isolate the monitor better from the incoming light, given the better surrounding. But on the other side, it is still possible to tough the monitor with what I use.


The major drawback is the strong mirror imaging I see - my face is in the sun, and I see it like in an mirror. I do not know how strong that is for the HD450.


----------



## Don Landis

Normally, I have not seen that mirror effect. I can imagine it showing up if shooting something very dark, however.


The only time I miss not having touch access to the screen is when I am playing back outside in the sun and that has been a very rare need. I also used the on screen record button in the past but since I turned on the run time display timer, the record button on screen is lost anyway. Got used to not having it now.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Well, I have seen this mirror effect working in the direct sun. That will not be true for every shoot. So the hoods should be helpfull in a lot of cases.


Maybe the major need for touch access is to reset the convergence. But if you work in direct sunshine, maybe it is better to stay with the automatic anyway, since it is hard to adjust that manually.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/20888272
> 
> 
> Well, I have seen this mirror effect working in the direct sun. That will not be true for every shoot. So the hoods should be helpfull in a lot of cases.
> 
> 
> Maybe the major need for touch access is to reset the convergence. But if you work in direct sunshine, maybe it is better to stay with the automatic anyway, since it is hard to adjust that manually.



Yes, and I'm of the opinion that for 90% of my shooting Auto is what works best as it allows me to concentrate on the stuff that is not under control of auto. Then there are those tricky shots that just require the manual settings. Fortunately most of what I do does not require manual and auto works good enough. My two most common troubles are bad lighting in the natural world and focus problems. I can't adjust either in 3D and need to put the screen in 2D anyway.


----------



## Prema999

Sorry if it was posted here before:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/h...mware-upgrade/ 


Let`s at least try!


----------



## cdb1




> Quote:
> we would be willing to pay another £400 for this upgrade




No I flaming wouldn't. Not having spent £1300 on the camera in the first place. Which buffoon wrote that? Sony take the p*ss out of us enough without charging a stupid amount of money like that for a firmware upgrade.


There's people out there hacking and modding DSLR firmware for users for free. Why not get one of them on the case to see if it could be ported across with/without modding.


----------



## Don Landis

In my recent google searches for some unrelated accessories for a 3D project I'm building I ran across a new 3rd party wide angle lens that is designed to fit the Sony TD10. I called them and learned that they claim it achieves wide angle of 0.5x for both 2D and 3D. That is really wide and I fear it may suffer fisheye distortion. We'll see. I ordered one to evaluate. I am particularly interested in how it mounts to the camera. The rep said it is a clamp on the the ring around the lens.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20895735
> 
> 
> a new 3rd party wide angle lens that is designed to fit the Sony TD10.



Please do you have a Link or email address, Don? Would like to contact them too!


----------



## Prema999




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wolfgang s.* /forum/post/20896323
> 
> 
> please do you have a link or email address, don? Would like to contact them too!



+1


----------



## Don Landis

I will post it if it turns out to be a good or bad product. I know lenses and want to see if this is the real thing or just a scam. I have my suspicions and reasons. Patience! They also have a 2x telephoto adapter for the same cheap price and claim it is specifically designed to fit on the TD-10 3D camcorder but I did not order the telephoto.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20896423
> 
> 
> I will post it if it turns out to be a good or bad product. I know lenses and want to see if this is the real thing or just a scam. I have my suspicions and reasons. Patience! They also have a 2x telephoto adapter for the same cheap price and claim it is specifically designed to fit on the TD-10 3D camcorder but I did not order the telephoto.



Okay, patience it is. In the mean time, I've seen some good results outdoors from holding a polarizer in front of the TD10. Any chance there is a suitable polarizer with clamp arrangement available. Perhaps this clamp could provide a mount, or is there another suggestion for using the polarizer?


----------



## Don Landis

Just got my tracking number for the shipment and it is scheduled to be here on Tuesday. I thought it would have shipped yesterday but unfortunately, my credit card bank flagged the transaction as a possible fraud. I had to call them today and give them the OK. So, the shipment got detained a day.


Anyway, Richard... I use the polarizing and haze filters here with fair success. I wonder about the polarizer because I suspect it is not a balanced filtration, but close enough to see some nice improvement. Therefore I class this as seeing is believing.










Anyway the how to is described earlier in this thread. I have a way to make a 77mm thread for all your 77mm lens accessories. Its a semi permanent modification to the front of the camera. It can be removed but not something you put on and take off.

Another TD10 owner here has added a Chroszeil Mattebox for square filters with mounting rails. This is a big accessory but adds additional features for photographic improvement. It's also considerably more expensive. I have a mattebox for my broadcast camera and when needed I get superb color depth compared to a simple lens shade.


The reason I said "fair" success is this- When you mount a filter on the front of a lens you have to be very careful with glare from side light washing out your picture. You must ( or really should) use a filter glass in combination with a lens shade to prevent this. The problem with the lens shades I have tried to date is they crop the corners of the left camera at wide angle. This is why the ultimate lens shade is a matte box since if properly designed for a 3D camera it will not crop the left side at full wide.

When considering using filters, one cannot just consider the main result of the filter but also needs to be aware of all the artifacts it brings to the table.


So, the bottom line is, I get good results with my haze and polarizer filter if I use them with the screw on lens shade and zoom in to get full framing. That is not a problem because the haze filter is primarily used at telephoto anyway. With the polarizer I suffer some loss of wide angle.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Well, will be interesting to see what your conclusions are!


Was it you Don - who stated that he would like to have a MVC template that allows to render MVC with the exact camcorder settings 1080 60i/50i? Well as betatester I have suggested that to the SCS development team - even if I know them quite well to understand that this will not be of high priority to them. But they are aware of the wish at least.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/20900700
> 
> 
> Well, will be interesting to see what your conclusions are!
> 
> 
> Was it you Don - who stated that he would like to have a MVC template that allows to render MVC with the exact camcorder settings 1080 60i/50i? Well as betatester I have suggested that to the SCS development team - even if I know them quite well to understand that this will not be of high priority to them. But they are aware of the wish at least.



I don't know if Don suggested it but *who doesn't want that*?


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Right Frank, I did not want to exclude you or somebody else!










I have no clue who said that first.


----------



## Don Landis

Yes, I know I have suggested it since 10d was released. This template can offer much more in features than any minor increase in bit rate to an existing template for Blu Ray burning that was also suggested. It adds the capability to render and export a completed timeline in Vegas Pro using PMB back into the TD10 for additional Playback option. We can do this in 2D now. Let's have it for 3D too.


The other template request ( not by me ) was to add additional higher rendering bit rate to the 1080 24P template. Some here believe this will make a big difference in image quality. I'm not convinced this alone will be the holy grail of 3D quality. Frankly, if I had a choice I'd prefer to also have the 1080 60P at current bit rates. But my first priority is to have the 1080 60i MVC that matches the camcorder file requirements.


Thank you very much for making this a beta tester suggestion. You are my hero!


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Hero? Frist I would like to see such a feature implemented.... at the end we can only make a suggestion, but it is up to SCS what they do with their product.


For the data rate: yes we could need higher data rates, even if the performance of the Sony AVC encoder is not bad. Compared with the Mainconcept AVC Encoder, the Sony AVC Encoder delivers a similar quality also with a lower data rate. So maybe that not in the first priority, even if it makes sense.


----------



## tony3dd

hi,

Just got my td10 in time for the weekend, and so far things are looking pretty good. I shot a few minutes at the local feast last night and was impressed with the quality.


I was able to import with pmb to a trial copy of vegas movie studio hd platinum 11. Vegas recognizes my cuda geforce card, but will only give me an anaglyph display on the external monitor. I have to get a 3d monitor and nividea glasses.


I do have a problem, when I use the make movie to try and record an edited clip to the camera, I get device unavailable, even though the camera is in pc mode and is recognized by windows and pmb. Nothing shows up in the device controller. Am I missing something?


I've scanned through this thread and have to go back read it in greater detail, I know I missed a lot. Thanks for all of your posts.


Tony


----------



## Don Landis

Tony- welcome to AVS. Your question has to do with Vegas Movie studio HD Platinum v11. You should post your question in the thread for that.

I do believe you are trying to render your Vegas timeline to record to the camcorder, like a VCR using mini DV tape or tape based camcorder using a 1394 controller, which the TD10 is not. That's why you get the error device not available. At this time the best output of edited video in 3D that was shot with the TD10 is to render and burn to a Blu Ray BD-R under the tools menu. The work flow for doing that is in the help files in Vegas MS Plat. HD.


----------



## natiahs

Here's my latest 3D sample clip, a flamenco dance performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=VZvtXFvXgBA 


This was recorded at Louisville KY's WorldFest on Saturday, 9/3. It was over 100 degrees without a cloud in the sky. The group somehow performed for a full half hour.


Using the advice of those in this thread, the clip was mastered in Vegas at 720p60.


Hopefully I'll have some 3D footage from last week's Louisville Zombie Attack up later this week.


Chad Thomas

Just in Time Films


----------



## markr041

"Using the advice of those in this thread, the clip was mastered in Vegas at 720p60."


For uploading to Youtube, it is not optimal to render at 72060p. The MVC files are 108060i. To maximize quality for Youtube, the render should be 108030p. Youtube will convert to 30p whether your clip is 60p or 30p. And 1080 is an option to watch your video on Youtube. You reduced the resolution by a lot and gained little in terms of smooth action.


Very nice clip, though.


----------



## natiahs

Thanks for the feedback; that's why I posted on here. I'll try re-rendering in 1080p30 and replace the video file.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20911663
> 
> 
> "Using the advice of those in this thread, the clip was mastered in Vegas at 720p60."
> 
> 
> For uploading to Youtube, it is not optimal to render at 72060p. The MVC files are 108060i. To maximize quality for Youtube, the render should be 108030p. Youtube will convert to 30p whether your clip is 60p or 30p. And 1080 is an option to watch your video on Youtube. You reduced the resolution by a lot and gained little in terms of smooth action.
> 
> 
> Very nice clip, though.


----------



## NSX1992




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *natiahs* /forum/post/20911592
> 
> 
> Here's my latest 3D sample clip, a flamenco dance performance:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=VZvtXFvXgBA
> 
> 
> This was recorded at Louisville KY's WorldFest on Saturday, 9/3. It was over 100 degrees without a cloud in the sky. The group somehow performed for a full half hour.
> 
> 
> Using the advice of those in this thread, the clip was mastered in Vegas at 720p60.
> 
> 
> Hopefully I'll have some 3D footage from last week's Louisville Zombie Attack up later this week.
> 
> 
> Chad Thomas
> 
> Just in Time Films



I liked the subject material but I am sure the Youtube video does not look nearly as good as the original. The Sony is much better.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20896423
> 
> 
> I will post it if it turns out to be a good or bad product. I know lenses and want to see if this is the real thing or just a scam. I have my suspicions and reasons. Patience! They also have a 2x telephoto adapter for the same cheap price and claim it is specifically designed to fit on the TD-10 3D camcorder but I did not order the telephoto.



As I suspected. This was a scam. ( Scam to mean that it is sold to do something it can't do) The two lenses they send out are 37mm wide angle and 37mm telephoto. Not only don't they fit, they come with instructions to mount on a standard 2D consumer camcorder with that size lens. Yet the advertising clearly states for the HDR TD10. I will be calling the retailer tomorrow for RMA number.


Interesting thing is I only paid for the wide angle lens but they sent me both the wide angle and the 2X telephoto. Neither will fit.



First of all anyone who owns a Sony HDR TD10 knows this 3D camcorder has no threaded front end for any lens attachments. Therefore the only way to mount a lens attachment like a filter or mattebox is to modify the flange on the camcorder front with a threaded ring. I found the 77mm 1:1 step ring works best. Or as in the case of a Chroszeil Mattebox, you mount it with a set of rails and a plate that screws to the bottom 1/4-20 tripod mount.


So, if any of you see these being advertised, and the price looks dirt cheap, don't bother as they won't work, in 2D much less 3D mode.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20913899
> 
> 
> As I suspected. This was a scam. ( Scam to mean that it is sold to do something it can't do) The two lenses they send out are 37mm wide angle and 37mm telephoto. Not only don't they fit, they come with instructions to mount on a standard 2D consumer camcorder with that size lens. Yet the advertising clearly states for the HDR TD10. I will be calling the retailer tomorrow for RMA number.
> 
> 
> Interesting thing is I only paid for the wide angle lens but they sent me both the wide angle and the 2X telephoto. Neither will fit.
> 
> 
> 
> First of all anyone who owns a Sony HDR TD10 knows this 3D camcorder has no threaded front end for any lens attachments. Therefore the only way to mount a lens attachment like a filter or mattebox is to modify the flange on the camcorder front with a threaded ring. I found the 77mm 1:1 step ring works best. Or as in the case of a Chroszeil Mattebox, you mount it with a set of rails and a plate that screws to the bottom 1/4-20 tripod mount.
> 
> 
> So, if any of you see these being advertised, and the price looks dirt cheap, don't bother as they won't work, in 2D much less 3D mode.



Here's quick links back to two Filter mounting adaptation posts in this thread


Don Landis glued on ring from 1A filter
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post20499300 


Michael Worley Cavision 3x3 matte box mounted on a rod support system
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post20502131 


Both of these are fantastically innovative, including photos of the setup


Question for Don - you wrote, _"Have to go do some shooting to see if this is a problem. (with built in TD10 microphone)"_ - Are there results of this yet? And also - What's a good approach to unglue the ring?


Question for Michael - Is this rod support system something I can buy off the shelf or can you supply machine shop fab files?


----------



## Don Landis

The rod support system is off the shelf. You just have to buy it sized for the TD10. I have one here too but not for the TD10. Mine is quite a bit larger as it fits the broadcast cameras.


Sound issues with the ring adapter- I thought I did post this but simply repeated, it depends...


No problem when shooting without the filters screwed in. With filter in place the glass blocks the front facing mic and causes sound direction issues. Without the filter glass in place, just the ring, I have no observable issues. So, when I use a filter, I attach one of the hot shoe mics. Problem solved! Note- this will be an issue with any lens accessory, including the rail matte box system.


Removal of the ring- Most glues have a glue removal solvent. I have removed my ring once already using acetone solvent. I do not recommend anyone do this if you want to maintain your TD10 in factory mint condition. My camera is a tool I use to get images. It is not something I am buying and holding for resale.


----------



## natiahs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/20911663
> 
> 
> "For uploading to Youtube, it is not optimal to render at 72060p. The MVC files are 108060i. To maximize quality for Youtube, the render should be 108030p."



Here's the clip re-encoded at 1080p30:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-Jd_-O_bP0 


Thanks again for your help.


----------



## tony3dd

Thanks Don, I have to ask a few q's in that forum.


Have you, or any one else been able to move files from pmb to the camera?

When I've tried this it said I was successful, but the movie isn't there.


natiahs .... excellent! even in anaglyph


I uploaded a video to youtube last night, it plays all stretched out, it says I have to halve it's width and try again ... is there a way around this?

I will look for the 1080p30 setting for my next try.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Have you, or any one else been able to move files from pmb to the camera?
> 
> When I've tried this it said I was successful, but the movie isn't there.



There is no way to render a 3D video in Vegas that is compatible with the 3D file structure needed for playback in the TD10. Several of us have made a request to Sony to have this as a template in the next release of Vegas. I have had success in using PMB to export Vegas rendered 2D files back to the camcorder for playback in the camcorder. In 2D just render to a format that is identical to the format the camcorder records.


----------



## DannyMilan

Hey guys, I'm trying to make up my mind between the Sony HDR-TD10 and the Panasonic HDC-SDT750. The Sony is like $750 more expensive, so I'm like to settle for the Panasonic, however, if there are obvious reasons why I should but the Sony, I will spend that extra money.


I searched the forum for Sony HDRTD10 vs Panasonic HDCSDT750 and search results didn't have any specifically related threads. If anyone can guide me to the right thread, that would be greatly appreciated!


Thanks!

Danny


----------



## markr041

The TM750 is a better 2D camera than the Sony TD10, in particular in sharpness, color accuracy, and the ability to manually control audio. But the difference in 2D, while clear, is marginal compared to the difference in 3D mode.


The TD10 is superior in every way to the 750 as a 3D camera. It, in my view based on ownership of both cameras (I actually have the TM900 with 3D adaptor and the TD10) and the Sony 3D Bloggie and the Fuji W3, the worst 3D camcorder available, leaving aside cell phones and the Aiptek and Viewsonic toys. It has no manual controls in 3D, not even convergence - no zoom and fixed focus. It is 1/2-frame sbs at *less than* 960x1080 per eye (there is a black frame added which reduces the resolution). The Sony 3D Bloggie take better 3D videos. The Bloggie is also 1/2-frame sbs but no black frames, and looks sharper.


The TD10, on the other hand, provides 2x1920x1080 resolution, you can manually focus and control exposure, you can control convergence and it has a 10x zoom in 3D mode. The 3D videos from the TD10 look better than those from the Panasonic even when reduced to 1/2-frame sbs in post.


And, the TD10 has a superb 3D glassless lcd - so you can actually see the 3D while you shoot. The LCD on the Panasonic is 2D - so you are shooting 1/3 blind. Even the 3D Bloggie has a 3D lcd.


If you are interested in 3D video, the TM750 is a poor choice.


----------



## tony3dd

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
There is no way to render a 3D video in Vegas that is compatible with the 3D file structure needed for playback in the TD10. Several of us have made a request to Sony to have this as a template in the next release of Vegas. I have had success in using PMB to export Vegas rendered 2D files back to the camcorder for playback in the camcorder. In 2D just render to a format that is identical to the format the camcorder records.
Don, thanks for clearing that up, something I read, touted reloading 3d to use the camera preview as a feature. I was concerned there was a camera problem.


Here is my youtube clip ... oops won't let me post url yet



I think I am going to try and build a simple stabilizer and seriously consider a matte box once I get a real 3d monitor.


----------



## tony3dd

youtube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6muhyvO_-0


----------



## Don Landis

Quote:

As I suspected. This was a scam. ( Scam to mean that it is sold to do something it can't do) The two lenses they send out are 37mm wide angle and 37mm telephoto. Not only don't they fit, they come with instructions to mount on a standard 2D consumer camcorder with that size lens. Yet the advertising clearly states for the HDR TD10. I will be calling the retailer tomorrow for RMA number.


Interesting thing is I only paid for the wide angle lens but they sent me both the wide angle and the 2X telephoto. Neither will fit.
Further update- I called the retailer and they were very apologetic, claiming they didn't know the product. They told me they didn't want me to return the lenses but would rather send me a second NPFV70 battery and a charger that has about the same value as the lenses. Again, apologized, and hoped I would consider them for future orders.


If the two items arrive as promised, I will consider this an honest mistake. 3D is new and these salesmen are expected to be an expert on everything. They also deal with mostly consumers who don't know much about what they are buying too. It's a tough job and a fine line between being considered a scam and an honest mistake. Often it is the restitution that separates the the two.


----------



## trevorjharris

All three camcorders have been reviewed at camcorderinfo.com. I chose the TD10 because it is full 3d and has a 10x zoom. Only way to to produce a 3D blu-ray is with Vegas Pro and even then it is converted to 1080p24 with no menus. I use cineform Neo with premier pro for editing. I have the trial version of Vegas but will probably wait for version 11 to see if they improve things.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tony3dd* /forum/post/20917583
> 
> 
> youtube video
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6muhyvO_-0



Please add the 3D tags so people can see this in 3D.


----------



## tony3dd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20925608
> 
> 
> Please add the 3D tags so people can see this in 3D.



It was! just activated 3d again ... I can view it anaglyph.


It looks like you cannot add tags anymore!


The anaglyph version plays unevenly, I would appreciate feedback from higher quaility viewers.


----------



## trevorjharris

Just been looking at the 3D Blu-ray specs:

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Do...per_110712.pdf 


This says it only supports


1920x1080 23.976 progressive

1280x720 59.94 progressive

1280x720 50 progressive (optional)


None of which are supported by the TD10. I am begining to think I made a mistake in buying this machine. Clearly the HXR-NX3D does support 1920x1080 23.976 progressive. Is the Sony firmware upgradeable to include this format on the TD10 and if so will Sony release it. My guess is that they won't as they would rather people bought another camcorder.


I have Cineform Neo which can deinterlace and change the frame rate. I am not sure how good vegas would be at doing that.


----------



## cdb1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trevorjharris* /forum/post/20930426
> 
> 
> Just been looking at the 3D Blu-ray specs:
> 
> http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Do...per_110712.pdf
> 
> 
> This says it only supports
> 
> 
> 1920x1080 23.976 progressive
> 
> 1280x720 59.94 progressive
> 
> 1280x720 50 progressive (optional)
> 
> 
> None of which are supported by the TD10. I am begining to think I made a mistake in buying this machine. Clearly the HXR-NX3D does support 1920x1080 23.976 progressive. Is the Sony firmware upgradeable to include this format on the TD10 and if so will Sony release it. My guess is that they won't as they would rather people bought another camcorder.
> 
> 
> I have Cineform Neo which can deinterlace and change the frame rate. I am not sure how good vegas would be at doing that.



AVCHD2 inludes all the Sony specs (although Sony don't seem to claim AVCHD2 compatability) , we just need to wait for everyone else to come upto AVCHD2 spec and catch up with Sony.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trevorjharris* /forum/post/20930426
> 
> 
> Just been looking at the 3D Blu-ray specs:
> 
> http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Do...per_110712.pdf
> 
> 
> This says it only supports
> 
> 
> 1920x1080 23.976 progressive
> 
> 1280x720 59.94 progressive
> 
> 1280x720 50 progressive (optional)
> 
> 
> None of which are supported by the TD10. I am begining to think I made a mistake in buying this machine. Clearly the HXR-NX3D does support 1920x1080 23.976 progressive. Is the Sony firmware upgradeable to include this format on the TD10 and if so will Sony release it. My guess is that they won't as they would rather people bought another camcorder.
> 
> 
> I have Cineform Neo which can deinterlace and change the frame rate. I am not sure how good vegas would be at doing that.



Trevor- The TD-10 is a 3D / 2D consumer camcorder. It is not a Blu-Ray device and has no association with Blu-Ray. It is a camcorder and there are no requirements a camcorder must follow. In order to go from your TD-10 to BluRay you'll have to use Sony Vegas which supports all the Blu-Ray specs. formats in it's rendering output collection plus many many others but not everyone that we would like to see, in particular, 3D MVC 1080 60i


The fact that Sony offers a similar output format as specified by the Blu-Ray standard in their Prosumer version just says that you can record in that format in the camcorder and not need to transcode to render to Blu-Ray in Vegas. Having that format in the prosumer camcorder does not eliminate needing Vegas in the work flow to get to a Blu Ray disk.


Will Sony offer the 1080 24p recording format in the TD-10 consumer camcorder? They could and just might in a future version of the camcorder next year maybe what I will call the "TD-11". There are a number of enhancements externally AND INTERNALLY that differentiate the HDR TD-10 from the HXR-NX3D prosumer version. If you must have that level of camcorder, then Sony offers it now. Can the TD-10 be upgraded to include the format via a firmware change? Maybe, maybe not. Often there is much more going on inside the camcorder that we don't understand. We do know that the HXR-NX3D has considerable more memory internally and different circuitry to support a number of prosumer features not included in the TD-10. So, _my guess_ is that the current TD-10 will not and can not be firmware upgraded. But as I do not know what's involved there is always that possibility.

Look at it this way- It is Sony's past history to come out with new models rather than upgrade older ones for free or for price even if capable. If JVC and Panasonic and Canon all do it ( have the recording mode) in consumer level product then I'm sure Sony will add that to the next version to keep competitive. If Sony does not release a new model next year and the current TD-10 is capable of being upgraded, then I would think Sony would _want_ to make a buck selling a firmware upgrade, leaving it up to you if the price is worth it. But don't hold your breath as that would be a departure from Sony's SOP.


There are those ( icerat4) who want to be able to record a 3DBD direct from the camcorder using a self contained Blu Ray burner for 3D. I'm sure recording in a 3D BD format would be the first step toward achieving that goal. I'm not in that camp but understand why and support that ultimate goal for them.


----------



## tony3dd

Don, Since you're talking about burning, .... I'm going to order a blu ray burner by tomorrow, are there any preferences, or ones I should avoid?


Finally saw the td10 output on a sony 3d tv ... pretty, pretty good!


----------



## Don Landis

Mine are Sata 4x. Matsushita drives. Been working fine for a couple of years. When I bought them 4X SATA was new on the market. I think you can get 6X or higher today at reasonable prices.


----------



## trevorjharris

I have a pioneer BDR-202 which has been very reliable. I am going to upgrade to Pioneer BDR-206MBK so I can burn dual layer. There are lots of good reviews. As far as I can discover the MBK version is the best. There are other cheaper versions but I don't think they are so good. With burners it does not make sence to go for the cheaper models as media will cost far more than burner and so you need reliable burns. For Blu-ray I use verbatim.


----------



## trevorjharris

Thanks for your reply Don. AVCHD 2.0 does support 1080i50 so it was very disappointing to find Blu-ray 3D does not. Of course it may be that in practice 3D blu-ray players may support 1080i50.


I do hope Vegas 11 will provide some MVC and 3d blu-ray improvements. I have a trial of 10e but I have found it to be buggy. The AVC encoded sometimes crashes with no explanation. Only having one time line is a real drag after using premiere pro.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Only having one time line is a real drag after using premiere pro.



Vegas permits unlimited timelines and unlimited number of instances of the software running simultaneously. You just need more ram the greater the number you want to work with.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20917689
> 
> 
> Further update- I called the retailer and they were very apologetic, claiming they didn't know the product. They told me they didn't want me to return the lenses but would rather send me a second NPFV70 battery and a charger that has about the same value as the lenses. Again, apologized, and hoped I would consider them for future orders.
> 
> 
> If the two items arrive as promised, I will consider this an honest mistake. 3D is new and these salesmen are expected to be an expert on everything. They also deal with mostly consumers who don't know much about what they are buying too. It's a tough job and a fine line between being considered a scam and an honest mistake. Often it is the restitution that separates the the two.



Got the two items today! But they sent me another NPFV100. I would rather have the 70 but now I have two 100's and 6-70's in my bag. Guess I have enough batteries. The charger they sent is not the Sony but an aftermarket universal charger that runs off of AC and 12 VDC which is a nice addition for my kit. I'm testing the charger and battery out now.


The people do seem honest and have really great prices. If it were not a forum rule violation I would tell you all where you can get a great price on the TD-10 but I'm sure you can find it with a good Google search. Just be prepared for lots of mistakes and misinformation. PM me if you want to know more.


----------



## tony3dd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trevorjharris* /forum/post/20937849
> 
> 
> I am going to upgrade to Pioneer BDR-206MBK so I can burn dual layer. There are lots of good reviews. As far as I can discover the MBK version is the best.



Thanks Trevor, that does look like an exceptionally good drive. I usually buy from Tiger, but they don't carry it, so I'll shop around.


If I burn a disk, the guys at pc richards will let me test it on their demo. I'm anxious to chip away at the work flow.


I don't know if you guys do any compositing , I threw a couple of animated layers over td10 backyard footage to see if it would hurt my eyes or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyHdfmjkk2Q


----------



## Don Landis

Very nice!


How did you generate your animation? Did you use chroma key or alpha channel to composite?


----------



## tony3dd

thanks, Don


It's actually a scene from a short cartoon I should have finished by now.


I replaced the single camera with a virtual rig, and shot two seperate streams of pngs with alpha mats. That little sphere in the bkd is the point of convergence & slight adjustment with vegas plat. The puff of smoke is a single stream (one camera) of pngs using vegas for the 3d (duplicated in two video streams and combined). As I am only able to view in anaglyph I'm a little nervous about adjustments. .. btw no keyframes for 3d adj in plat only a global setting as far as I can tell.


I hope to do something more ambitious, once I get more camera experience ... the td10 is so light you really need something to hold it or steady it to get something usable, so it's diy time. I have an old bogen w/ floating head that needs a set of wheels.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> It's actually a scene from a short cartoon I should have finished by now.



OK, what software did you use to paint up your characters. Looks good. I'm impressed with that. ( I'm not an artist and have no talent for drawing )


BTW- the only part I didn't care for is the zoom out on the characters near the end as the background remained fixed. That made the characters look like they were backing away on a hidden cart. or an unnatural move. I took it that you were just experimenting at this point so it really doesn't matter.


----------



## tony3dd

Oops, I'm sorry they are not drawn, they are 3d models I animated in a program called carrara. It is good for some things, but not others, it crashes a lot,for me.


I should have the new version of lightwave up this week, it has built in stereoscopic tools and is a better program for special fx. Cant wait to do some particle fx in stereo.


I left that zoom out, in, just out of curiosity, to see what the effect looked like.


----------



## Don Landis

Just curious, Tony. I did 3D animation in the early days for Broadcast TV and industry ( machinery design for the railroad). Lightwave was just an accessory of the Toaster back then. I primarily worked in 3D Studio under DOS and used Diaquest frame controller and a Targa frame buffer to single frame to 1" tape. I had 11 networked computers in a render farm here and an animation like you did would take a month.







I quit the animation business in '92 and got into just shooting and editing.


----------



## tony3dd

actually Don, I was at the big Amiga dinner meeting in Chinatown, where they first were discussing creating the toaster. Lightwave was created by Alan Hastings, as a stand alone program, newtek bundled it with LW as it was smart to do. Alan has moved on to Modo, which is an awesome 3d app.


I believe I am the first person to ever create a broadcast tv opening with a small computer .. HBO's Hardcore TV. 1993 I think


I remember 3ds max before windows, ... I still don't like it!

Frame controlling was the big problem back then, especially if you didn't have broadcast equipment. Used to drive us nuts!


sent you a pm.


----------



## Don Landis

Actually it was just 3D Studio v 1 2 3 and 4. Then came 3D Studio Max. I dropped out of the beta program with Yost group with the intro of Max. I was not making enough money in 3D animation to continue. We did several TV commercials for Toyota but the bulk of my time was working industrial and forensics. I could use my frame controller to my 3/4 U-matic and didn't need to rent time at the TV station 1" suite. I did a few projects low budget after buying my first Betacam SP deck which worked better than the 1" but by that time I was doing very well shooting for local cable ad dept. 3D Studio was in my past by that time.


----------



## Joseph Clark

The Amiga. I had several of them. Good times.










I had a student who wanted to study 3D animation at the university back in the early 90s, but we had no program. So I worked with him on a specialized curriculum. For the yearly Media Excellence Awards (called The Webbies - for Webster University), he created a 30 second animation in Lightwave. I loaned him my Amiga 3000 and, along with his own Amiga 3000, the animation rendered for a MONTH! When the animation was complete, we laid it off to the University's Panasonic D3 digital video recorder one frame at a time, and from there to S-VHS for the show and his demo reel. That work, along with others, helped him land a job with James Cameron's company before he even graduated - working on Apollo 13. He went on to work for George Lucas, Jeffrey Katzenberg, Peter Jackson and Sony animation, on a wide range of movies. Here's Aaron's IMDb page. 


The Amiga was a ground breaking computer. It made so many things affordable in the realm of computer video that previously had been the domain of MUCH more expensive broadcast gear. Because of the Amiga's ahead-of-its-time graphics and sound hardware, and efficient multitasking, it could have been the dominant computer of its era. Too bad the company (Commodore) had a group of bone-heads running it. For my purposes, the Amiga was a Godsend. I wouldn't even consider buying a PC or Mac back then.


----------



## Don Landis

The Amiga - Toaster was the low end entry point for the animation industry. But when the big boys using the Onyx super computers saw what was being done with a toy their jaws dropped. The writing was on the wall. My entry point was a tad higher end with the targa board and 3D studio. I agree that the Amiga bone heads really screwed the Toaster development. They could have charged 3 times as much for the Am,iga and double for the Toaster with Lightwave as a high end accessory. 3D Studio back then was $3000 for the software and it wasn't even a ray tracer. I recall Lightwave was a ray tracer which is why it was so slow on render speed. 3D Studio was not therefore it was faster but it didn't do really high quality reflection mapping like Lightwave could.


----------



## Joseph Clark

I could argue that Newtek (makers of the Video Toaster) knew exactly what they were doing. They provided a high level of quality, at a very low price point, and thus opened up tremendous possibilities to so many people who didn't have the resources to compete with the bigger players. I like to think of the Toaster as one of the landmark products in the democratization of video production through digital technology. Newtek remains very successful today with essentially the same philosophy. My student Aaron happened to have remarkable talent, and he was quite focused. I think he would have succeeded no matter what, but the work he did on his Amiga certainly helped open the door to the animation business at just the right time for him.


----------



## tony3dd

The guys who came up with the toaster were brilliant ... they saw the future! ... broadcast engeneers thought they were crazy ,, they were!


Lightwave always had better native rendering than max, it is not raytracing, though it has those options where they are needed. Max may have been faster, but with less rendering options. Everytime I would run into Alan Hastings he would tell me about a new addition to the renderer, the relationship between lw and the toaster gave these guys a tremendous advantage in developing production tools far ahead of their competitors.


I used to own an amiga dealership in nyc, There are a few 3000s that can even output a broadcast signal, .... if commodore hadn't screwed up it could have been the mac.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tony3dd* /forum/post/20945163
> 
> 
> The guys who came up with the toaster were brilliant ... they saw the future! ... broadcast engeneers thought they were crazy ,, they were!
> 
> 
> Lightwave always had better native rendering than max, it is not raytracing, though it has those options where they are needed. Max may have been faster, but with less rendering options. Everytime I would run into Alan Hastings he would tell me about a new addition to the renderer, the relationship between lw and the toaster gave these guys a tremendous advantage in developing production tools far ahead of their competitors.
> 
> 
> I used to own an amiga dealership in nyc, There are a few 3000s that can even output a broadcast signal, .... if commodore hadn't screwed up it could have been the mac.



I pushed the Amiga at a school that was totally Mac oriented. In the long run, the Amiga died due to Commodore's mis-management, but the Mac was an overpriced under-performer. The administration insisted on Mac hardware that simply couldn't do what the Amiga could, period, even though it cost much more. In the long run, they could probably claim they were right because of the Amiga's decline, but for years I think we could have done remarkable things with our students. That didn't happen, because trying to get the Mac to do things the Amiga did effortlessly was too expensive.


----------



## tony3dd

And you know, you are not the only one, Joe ....


I knew people all over the country doing the same, and they all were frustrated with people just not getting it! My buddy ran a media lab in Wisconsin and he used to bang his head against the wall with administration.


I don't support the mac, they have always been slower and are overpriced .. I just don't see the value.


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## Don Landis

Tony- Joe- the main reason I never bought my own Toaster is because it was composite video and also didn't offer any deck control. Back then we had two options for what I needed for broadcast. Fast Video Machine and Matrox systems. I tested the Matrox at one dealer and they could not get it working. I drove to Miami to a Fast dealer and we set up the board set in my computer and brought along two Betacam SP players, a beta SP recorder, 3/4 U,matic plus an RS422 controlled Hi 8mm VCR and a Control L Sony superbetamax VCR and finally a Panasonic SVHS control L VCR. In 4 hours the VAR had everything configured and set up and began to teach me how to edit with the Fast. It never missed a beat, frame accurate editing on the beta SP, 3/4 Umatic. 8mm, and Betamax. I was doing all sorts of titles, ABC roll editing from a timeline while the decks just spun away flawlessly. The only inaccurate VCR was the SVHS Panasonic but several weeks later I got the control L ballistics finally down and it too was frame accurate. I walked out of his studio that day with the entire system and it set me back $16K, slightly lower than the Matrox but that system rocked! The toaster was just a switcher but it was much lower cost than what I paid for the Fast system. A few years later Fast released the DPR which was an amazing digital video recorder for it's day. It worked along side of deck control and made the system an ABCDE roll edit suite. The entire system from the start was a 4:4:4 component YUV standard so the quality was quite good. The titler was Inscriber and that worked inside of Fast. The sfx was Boris Fx that also was designed for Fast. Between that and 3D Studio, there wasn't much I couldn't do. Plus it was so efficient, I could run rings around the competiton and have more business than I could handle. Soon I had two Fast edit suites here and a second intern helping. When Vegas hit Ver 3 I retired the Fast VM work flow and converted everything to Vegas. Fast was sold to Pinnacle and their NLE software sucked! I was on the beta team and it was so bad I told them I didn't want to be associated with the product. My name was on the DPR for Fast as one of the test team but I made no friends when they sold the company.


----------



## Joseph Clark

There's a big difference in what you were doing as a production pro and what happened in a hands on television production program like ours. Ours was (and still is) a good program, but we had to try to provide each student with the best resources we could, and always within serious budget constraints. In a lab class, I wanted as many learning stations as possible. For those times when students worked in labs on their own, it would have been great to have the ability to fade in and out and do graphic and title overlays. The Amiga could do that with really inexpensive add-on's. Trying to get close with a Mac was very expensive and limited those capabilities to just one or two students at a time, not a lab full of them.


To bring this tangent even remotely back on topic, I'll say that it is precisely hardware like the Sony TD10 and desktop software like Vegas (or my JVC TD1 and Premiere) - and their unbelievable capabilities - that bring us such incredible power at such ridiculously low cost. These production capabilities were simply impossible with our 3/4" and S-VHS editing systems just a few years ago. You had to invest huge amounts of money even to come close to what we can do. And just think - we can even do it 3D now!!! Most people wouldn't have believed it possible to have come so far so fast. And, honestly, you can even count me in that group, even though I like to think I saw things like this coming before most people did.


----------



## tony3dd

I've never owned/used a toaster either, for exactly the same reason, Don. I'm not an editor, but I could see this was going to revolutionize the business. Your 16k was cheap, in relation to your broadcast camera costs. But if that 3 chip svhs camera, is the best you can afford the toaster was like the second comming.


I agree with Joe, though the td10 needs lots of improvements, I think it's going to be a pivotal product in this new 3d revolution.


----------



## Don Landis

It's all relative, Tony. Broadcast level equipment is all expensive. It's relative because you can charge for that in the industry. BUT, you do have to know how to get the shots the client wants and they are ever so picky on the most minor details.

The one complaint I always had with Joe's end of the business is the academics concentrated way too much on perfection and excellence at any cost and failed all too often in educating the videography student how to match the project goal with budgets.


I agree the TD-10 has room for improvements. As I sit here adding a 77mm threaded ring to my second TD-10 to add UV filtering, this is foremost on my mind. I would also like to have additional manual control in the 3D mode. Frank and I both want the composite video out not to be disabled when connecting LANC. I want a cross hairs and grid in the 3D mode on the shooting screen. Ability to keep the camera on when the screen is closed. I miss not having a small eye viewfinder for shooting in bright sun and not needing the Hoodman 450. Sony to make a rectangular lens shade detachable that does not show in full wide 3D. I now have two TD-10's so I don't expect to be buying any more so unfortunately these ideas won't benefit me.


----------



## tony3dd

yep, Don, even though I don't have much shooting experience, those things all bug the hell out of me too, ... believe me, I'd rather have a pro like you come up with the shot, than having to learn how to get something usable by myself.

I'm kinda glad there is limited control on the 3d end, keeps it simple for us beginners.


I'll try and devise some kind of uv filter, cause that's killin' me. If I can't come up with some kind of duct tape hood, I may follow your lead.


Hopefully the td11 will have more features when/if it arrives.


----------



## Don Landis

The UV filter has little use in the typical shots acquired by the 3D user for the TD10 as most of the shots will be under 30 ft distance. However, in 2D mode the TD10 may be called upon to shoot large scenic stuff at great distances and this is where the UV filtering makes a difference. While in 3D the large scenics will be improved, those shots will remain flat.


----------



## trevorjharris

I have been looking at the hoodman hoodloope for working in bright light on the TD10. I am not convinced a lcd hood would be good enough. Does anyone have any experience with a hood on the TD10.


I use the Manfrotto 522AV lanc cable adapter with the bebob controller. I think to limitation of not having lanc with video output is a cable issue. I think it would be possibe for someone to produce cable with both functions.


The TD10 is a very good small point and shoot camera which is what I needed but it could have been so much better. The 10x zoom was a good selling point for me.


On the software side I get the impression that some developers are waiting for the coremvc decoder. Certainly cineform is planning mvc support. I am interested in seeing what Vegas Pro 11 will produce particularly with respect to 3D blu-ray.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20948903
> 
> 
> It's all relative, Tony. Broadcast level equipment is all expensive. It's relative because you can charge for that in the industry. BUT, you do have to know how to get the shots the client wants and they are ever so picky on the most minor details.
> 
> The one complaint I always had with Joe's end of the business is the academics concentrated way too much on perfection and excellence at any cost and failed all too often in educating the videography student how to match the project goal with budgets. ...










"perfection and excellence at any cost" I can't speak for all teachers, but I don't know any teacher with a philosophy even remotely like this. I certainly don't believe it, and I've never said it or implied it in any way, shape or form to any of my students. My colleagues would have laughed me out of the building if I'd I tried to sell this idea in the classroom.


Certainly there can be a disconnect between school and the rigors of a production environment. Some kids are better prepared than others for the transition. Since I've kept in touch with a number of my own students, I know that many of them have adjusted quite quickly. Indeed, many of them don't seem to have had to make any adjustment at all. They've just stepped into positions and performed well. Several of them are now TV pros working in the St. Louis area, and all over the country. Our program graduated people who went on to become indie film makers, PAs in Hollywood, camera operators, TDs, video editors, professional animators and countless other positions.


Maybe the interns who worked with you were not so great, and soured you on the ability of educational institutions to prepare them for the "real world." I'm sure that's a story that has repeated itself time and again around the country, but it's not the way it always turns out.


I'll relate one final anecdote that I always find amusing. My student Aaron (the animator who's worked on many major animated features) interned for an animation company here in St. Louis. He was not particularly well treated or respected by the owner. A few years later, Aaron ran into this man at an animation conference, I believe in Texas. After telling Aaron how well he was doing professionally, he condescendingly offered to see if he could get him special seating for the opening of the event. Aaron politely declined and told him that he was giving the keynote address and already had a good seat.







Schools are different, teachers are different, kids are different. You can't assume they're all the same.


----------



## Don Landis

Trevor- The hoodman loupe is good for a 2D application only. If that is satisfactory then it works. The device is used with a rubber adapter to increase the size to that of the TD10 screen. It is worn on a lanyard around your neck and you hold it up to the screen when needed. There isn't a means to attach it semi-permanently to the screen like the Hoodman 450. The main issue I have with the HD450 is having to attach it. That takes time I sometimes don't have. Generally when needing it I leave it attached and use the button to switch the camcorder on and off. Viewing the screen better in bright light with the HD450 is definitely an improvement. It folds flat and I can carry it like a wallet in my pocket when not on the camcorder.


There are adapter cables with both Lanc and A/V, even Y/C to the 10 pin Sony connector but these are listed with a warning that some Sony camcorders disable the A/V output when accessing the LANC. The HDR TD10 is in that list of camcorders. I believe Frank also discovered this when he purchased one of these cables. I have not personally tested as I learn from Frank's experience and what I've read. I bought the manfrotto adapter here for my twin camera bench 3D setup.



Joe- I hesitated to post my experience with a few interns here locally as I kind of knew you may take offense to it. Please understand you aren't to be held responsible for all programs everywhere. You don't need to defend them. You could have just given me an example of how your courses teach budgets and how to maximize profits in the business while producing art that meets requirements, not always exceeding them at any cost.

I can only tell you that the students who worked with me were ALL introduced to the concept of working inside a budget by the OJT internships not in class. You can be proud of your students who passed through your classes and went on to work in the industry. That was not what I was pointing out. It was that the concept of working inside a budget was not something that seemed to be important to those that worked with me when they came on board. I know that after they worked with me for awhile that concept was driven home.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Warning: This strays a bit off topic - please skip if you are so inclined.










No offense taken at all, Don. For the record, our program included study of budget considerations at every level. As students progressed, budgets received greater emphasis. Intro courses stressed basic production technique and vocabulary to a far greater degree, as was only appropriate. I was simply trying to clarify what to me seemed a generalization on your part - the "perfection and excellence at any cost" part. I've heard you make similar comments before and I don't know where they're coming from. To me, working within a budget, and on a deadline, is a concept so fundamental to production that students (at least in our program) seemed to understand it with the greatest of ease. In even the most basic intro course, they heard things like: these four projects are due in mid-September, October, November and December, and here's how you can use your lab fee to pay for production costs, both individually and for your group projects.


Deadlines and budget (student project or "real world") imply you make the most of what you have in terms of resources and time. You may want a particular shot, but if there's no time or budget for it, it's not possible. It's very simple. Most students had no zero trouble "getting" that. Of course, we've all run into chowder heads who seem to "get" nothing.







Maybe you were unfortunate enough to get more than your fair share of them.


As for me personally, when I have all the time in the world to do what I want (as I do right now), I don't worry how long it takes to get my shots. I'm not answering to anyone but myself. There are probably a lot more people in that boat here on AVS than production pros who depend on their TD10s for a living.


Again, I'm not taking offense. I just wanted to clarify.


----------



## trevorjharris

Hi Don


It seems as though the hoodloope can be straped on with HCAM4 mounting strap. An HR305 head riser would also be needed. Yes it is not stereoscopic but it could be usefull in bright sunlight. I cannot find a UK supplier for the HD450.


Looking at the reviews of the TD10 it looks as though it could benifit from colour correction. Cineform Firstlight has a Look Up Table for colour correction. I have been looking at ways to calibrate the TD10. Up to now every thing I looked at is very expensive. DSC test charts are expensive but xrite produce the color checker at a reasonable price. Then there is the problem of generating the correction table. I have Adobe onlocation which has vector scopes etc to measure the levels. Does anyone have experience of calibrating camcorders?.


----------



## Prema999

Not sure if it had been said here before , but since i updated PowerDVD 11 today it plays 3D TD10 mts files out of the box (audio & video).


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Prema999* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not sure if it had been said here before , but since i updated PowerDVD 11 today it plays 3D TD10 mts files out of the box (audio & video).



That would be a game changer. What are minimum hardware requirements? What additional forms of 3D can it play? How about iso 3D? Why MTS? Those are already unfit as is for playback. I want m2ts real time 3D playback of PMB stitched together and audio synced files plus 3D timeline rendered 3D file playback.


----------



## Don Landis

Trevor- there are other hood shades referenced in the thread but I think the HD450 is best. You could make one easy enough. It just uses Velcro straps with elastic bands to hold it on. IMHO the loupe is awkward to use because you have to get your head right next to the little camera.


I've been using Vegas for color correction for years. Has a complete set of scopes including realtime histogram. Plus you can keyframe the corrections over time.


----------



## Prema999

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
That would be a game changer. What are minimum hardware requirements? No idea! What additional forms of 3D can it play? How about iso 3D? Why MTS? Those are already unfit as is for playback. I want m2ts real time 3D playback of PMB stitched together and audio synced files plus 3D timeline rendered 3D file playback.
PowerDVD Ultra shows version 11.0.2024.53


Just tested, it plays m2ts properly (copied and stiched via PMB, 25GB single file)










I have no idea about hardware requirements. I have a Nvidia 3D Vison Notebook...


Waiting for Vegas Pro 11 or Avid to get their act together, so no idea about rendered files...


3D ISO (Bluray) give me a moment...just like before only via "virtual clone drive"


----------



## Don Landis

Looking good. I can load the 3D iso file into virtual drive but haven't been able to play anything in 3D yet. I'm on vista 64.


Everybody uses stereoscopic player but I haven't spent the money to test it here. It would only be a minor time savings over burning the iso file and playing in a set top player.


----------



## Frank

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don Landis* 
Everybody uses stereoscopic player but I haven't spent the money to test it here. It would only be a minor time savings over burning the iso file and playing in a set top player.
Last time I checked, you don't have to buy it to try it.

It's fully functional for five minutes of play time and then it stops and you have to restart it.


----------



## Don Landis

Frank- Thanks- Decided to go ahead and test it and it was annoying having to restart it a dozen times or so before I got it tuned to working properly. The nvidia 3D didn't work even though that's the card I have, not sure why. The left and right looked like it was way out of alignment but using SBS Left first and scaled with half width gave me a similar quality as I get with the same iso on 3D BD so I guess it works fine. Sure does decode everything and plays smoothly. Also had to download their recommended codecs for video and audio. So, the player now works on my secondary monitor Vizio 32"


Oh, I also tested the m2TS files. These play in 3D on the Vizio BUT they do not play flawlessly. Better than in Vegas player but there is still some hesitation and occasional picture breakup. Most likely my slower computer if others are doing fine.


----------



## markr041

To interrupt briefly: All you oldies here might appreciate this 3D video made with the TD10 of a big band playing a concert outdoors on a Sunday afternoon.


The main point is that the audio from the TD10, even as transcoded by Vegas (to AC from AC3) and Youtube, is quite good.


Recorded in stereo using the internal mics. No pop outs, just depth.







Double click and choose 1080p and your favorite 3D viewing type.


----------



## icerat4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20933944
> 
> 
> Trevor- The TD-10 is a 3D / 2D consumer camcorder. It is not a Blu-Ray device and has no association with Blu-Ray.
> 
> 
> There are those ( icerat4) who want to be able to record a 3DBD direct from the camcorder using a self contained Blu Ray burner for 3D. I'm sure recording in a 3D BD format would be the first step toward achieving that goal. I'm not in that camp but understand why and support that ultimate goal for them.



thats a big 10-4 don ..hope ces brings us good news


----------



## MatiasMesa

Hi All, Im new to the forum but been here on the silent side for a while.

I bought a hdr-td10 a few months ago and been testing footage on different

Monitors. Lately I found that it has different speed capture on both L and R channels, This means that while taping a Soccer game at the Copa America a few weeks ago, the ball gets to the line before on one eye. or I got a Flash from the crowd and its both in both eyes. Has anybody experienced this before? its not even a full frame, with makes it more complex, it half a frame. here are some samples.


----------



## MatiasMesa

Any ideas guys? Thanks


Matias Mesa


----------



## Andrew_Woods

I found a nice case for my Sony HDR-TD10.

It's the "Sony LCS-X10 Handycam Soft Carry Case"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0014T6KSW 

It has a shoulder strap.

It is a snug fit but there is also room for my Fujifilm 3D camera.

There is a front pouch, but the pouch isn't quite big enough to fit a spare battery for the TD10.


----------



## Andrew_Woods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MatiasMesa* /forum/post/20980080
> 
> 
> Lately I found that it has different speed capture on both L and R channels, This means that while taping a Soccer game at the Copa America a few weeks ago, the ball gets to the line before on one eye. or I got a Flash from the crowd and its both in both eyes. Has anybody experienced this before? its not even a full frame, with makes it more complex, it half a frame. here are some samples.



Hello Matias, can you explain how these sample images were captured?

I'm wondering whether the method you have used to create these test images is responsible for the error.

The camera captures interlaced video so I'm wondering whether the left side is the odd field and the right side is the even field - this would partly correlate with the half-frame difference you described.

BTW: Your sample image shows a phase error (or a time offset) but not a speed difference.


Cheers,

Andrew.


----------



## Andrew_Woods

Hi All,

With the JVC GS-TD1 having recently received a firmware update, if Sony was to issue a firmware update for the HDR-TD10, what do people think should be included? Are there some faults or quirks that should be fixed? Are there some obvious functions that they omitted? Let's limit our suggestions to items within the TD10's existing hardware capability.


Here's some thoughts to start the ball rolling:

1. enable 3D still capture (currently the camera can only capture 2D stills).

2. remove the limitation that stills can't be taken whilst the camera is in 3D mode. (this is related to the first item, but it's annoying that the camera can't even take a 2D still whilst in 3D mode - requiring an awkward process of switching the camera to 2D mode, then switch to picture mode, just to capture a high-res still).

3. enable 720P 50/60fps capture (it's unfortunate that the native 3D mode of the camera 1080i50 or 1080i60 isn't a format supported by Blu-ray 3D. Currently I downres my 1080i50 content down to 720P50 for Blu-ray 3D burning, but there may be some advantages in recording originally in 720P50. Of course, it'd be nice if Blu-ray 3D supported 1080i50/60 but I'm not holding my breath.)

4. enable 1080i24 video capture (this is unlikely to be added by Sony since the professional version HXR-NX3D1U includes 1080P24, but I had to mention it since I'm sure others would mention it. But seriously, an interlaced 1080i24 mode would be desirable since 24fps is the only full-resolution mode supported on Blu-ray 3D. Besides a 24i mode wouldn't directly compete with the professional version's 24P mode).

5. truncate long files (>2GB) on proper i-frame boundaries. (Currently when recording for longer than about 20mins, the files on the camera get cut into ~2GB segments, but the position of the cut is not at a proper boundary, and as a result little clips of audio and video get split onto separate files. PMB can be used to correctly recover the split files, but it'd be nice not to need to go through that step).


Any other thoughts?

Perhaps some bugs in the user interface?


Cheers!


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andrew_Woods* /forum/post/20983416
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> With the JVC GS-TD1 having recently received a firmware update, if Sony was to issue a firmware update for the HDR-TD10, what do people think should be included? Are there some faults or quirks that should be fixed? Are there some obvious functions that they omitted? Let's limit our suggestions to items within the TD10's existing hardware capability.
> 
> 
> Here's some thoughts to start the ball rolling:
> 
> 1. enable 3D still capture (currently the camera can only capture 2D stills).
> 
> 2. remove the limitation that stills can't be taken whilst the camera is in 3D mode. (this is related to the first item, but it's annoying that the camera can't even take a 2D still whilst in 3D mode - requiring an awkward process of switching the camera to 2D mode, then switch to picture mode, just to capture a high-res still).
> 
> 3. enable 720P 50/60fps capture (it's unfortunate that the native 3D mode of the camera 1080i50 or 1080i60 isn't a format supported by Blu-ray 3D. Currently I downres my 1080i50 content down to 720P50 for Blu-ray 3D burning, but there may be some advantages in recording originally in 720P50. Of course, it'd be nice if Blu-ray 3D supported 1080i50/60 but I'm not holding my breath.)
> 
> 4. enable 1080i24 video capture (this is unlikely to be added by Sony since the professional version HXR-NX3D1U includes 1080P24, but I had to mention it since I'm sure others would mention it. But seriously, an interlaced 1080i24 mode would be desirable since 24fps is the only full-resolution mode supported on Blu-ray 3D. Besides a 24i mode wouldn't directly compete with the professional version's 24P mode).
> 
> 5. truncate long files (>2GB) on proper i-frame boundaries. (Currently when recording for longer than about 20mins, the files on the camera get cut into ~2GB segments, but the position of the cut is not at a proper boundary, and as a result little clips of audio and video get split onto separate files. PMB can be used to correctly recover the split files, but it'd be nice not to need to go through that step).
> 
> 
> Any other thoughts?
> 
> Perhaps some bugs in the user interface?
> 
> 
> Cheers!



OK, I know this is not a firmware update, but can't Sony just supply a cheap device that is the size of a media card reader that incorporates whatever software is in the camera so that one can play back from a hard drive or a SD card the 3D video taken by the camera that is stored on them without requiring hooking up one's camera? This way you could at least share Full HD 3D video without reducing it to 720P with others who have a 3D TV, but do not have a Sony 3D camcorder.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andrew_Woods* /forum/post/20983416
> 
> 
> 4. enable 1080i24 video capture (this is unlikely to be added by Sony since the professional version HXR-NX3D1U includes 1080P24, but I had to mention it since I'm sure others would mention it. But seriously, an interlaced 1080i24 mode would be desirable since 24fps is the only full-resolution mode supported on Blu-ray 3D. Besides a 24i mode wouldn't directly compete with the professional version's 24P mode).



A format like 1080 24i does not exist at all, and is not specified for 3D Blu Ray either. And for 3D Blu Ray it can only be 720 50p, 720 60p or 1080 24p.


Given the low motion resolution you have to expect for 1080 24i, I think that is no good idea really. Either you have 1080 24p, or you have 1080 50i/60i. And sure, a lot of people would like to see the TD10 with 1080 24p to avoid concersions for 3D Blu Ray - but I agree with you that 1080 24p would be nice, but unlikely to happen for the TD10.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Let's limit our suggestions to items within the TD10's existing hardware capability.



Nice idea, but would you care to list for all of us exactly what those hardware limits are? Bet you can't because I don't know if anyone outside of Sony can answer that. Many would like to have a 3D shooting mode for 1080 24P as they put in the Pro version. But we do know for a fact that the pro version has a different hardware set internally to permit additional features not included in the consumer version.


Instead- I prefer to make a list of features I would like to see in a future TD-10 even though I really don't see myself buying one because I already own two TD-10's.


About the easiest thing to add to a new version of the TD-10 would be a threaded filter ring to mount lens accessories.


Do not disable the Composite video out when a LANC device is connected.


A way to keep the camcorder on when the screen is closed ( many places are now permitting video as long as there are no lights visible to others.) Then a flip up range finder frame for aiming.


----------



## trevorjharris

Sony produce a utility for their pro cameras called Content Management Utility which is similar to PMB but is able to split the left and right views. It can be downloaded from:

http://www.sony-mea.com/support/down...loadScrollable 


To install it you will need to connect your TD10 usb in Mass Storage Mode. It will not install otherwise. You will have to reimport your videos using this tool as it will not process ones imported by PMB. CMU will split your mvc video into two AVC videos both with AC3 sound.


It seems to do the split quite quickly so I assume there may be a way to do this without a full re-encode the right video. This would preserve the quality.


Good luck.


----------



## Don Landis

Nice find!

I have been experimenting with twin TD-10's in 2D mode lately for wide IA 3D. I have observed that the preview playback with two AVC files paired for 3D plays back much faster on my machine than the single m2ts MVC file inside of an edited timeline. It still is not perfect realtime playback but much faster than the MVC file.


I need to check out this utility.


----------



## Andrew_Woods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/20983544
> 
> 
> A format like 1080 24i does not exist



Good point. I was trying to suggest a half-way house for Full-HD 3D using the TD10 since Sony is unlikely to include 24P support since that's an added feature of the PRO model.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/20983544
> 
> 
> for 3D Blu Ray it can only be 720 50p, 720 60p or 1080 24p.



And that in part is the difficulty - there is no easy path from full-HD TD10 footage to full-HD Blu-ray 3D. 1080i50 content could theoretically be slowed down slightly slowed down to output as 1080P24 but there's no such easy path for 1080i60 content.


----------



## Andrew_Woods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/20983453
> 
> 
> OK, I know this is not a firmware update, but can't Sony just supply a cheap device that is the size of a media card reader that incorporates whatever software is in the camera so that one can play back from a hard drive or a SD card the 3D video taken by the camera that is stored on them without requiring hooking up one's camera? This way you could at least share Full HD 3D video without reducing it to 720P with others who have a 3D TV, but do not have a Sony 3D camcorder.



Sony has just announced the SMP-N200 3D Media player.
http://www.stereoscopynews.com/hotne...ia-player.html 

Perhaps it will perform the task you desire, but it's unlikely to be cheap.


The second problem is whether it will output 1080i50 or 1080i60 3D to the 3D display, or whether it will only do this at 720P for the 50 and 60 fps modes.


----------



## Andrew_Woods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20983806
> 
> 
> (1) Do not disable the Composite video out when a LANC device is connected.
> 
> (2) A way to keep the camcorder on when the screen is closed ( many places are now permitting video as long as there are no lights visible to others.) Then a flip up range finder frame for aiming.



Good ideas.

Regarding (1), doesn't a LANC device use the same connector as the composite output? How do you get both? Does your LANC device have a video pass-thru?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andrew_Woods* /forum/post/20995349
> 
> 
> Good ideas.
> 
> Regarding (1), doesn't a LANC device use the same connector as the composite output? How do you get both? Does your LANC device have a video pass-thru?



A Sony Remote breakout cable already exists that has a Lanc female plug plus the AV cables. I even found one that also includes the Y/C cable. The problem is that a few Sony camcorders have one or the other disabled when the other is connected. The TD10 is one of those. The SR12 is not.


See this: http://www.studio1productions.com/lanc-sa.htm


----------



## nosys70

if somebody is interested i am selling my TD10E for cheap.

It is a little marvel , just flawed by a stupid designer that choose to left 24p out of this camera. I will go with the NX3D1 that cost almost twice the price.

My camera is a TD10E, means an european camera that shoot 3D in 1080i50.

So you can easily turn it to 24p by deinterlacing 1080i50 to 1080p25 then slowing down to 24p. I have done it already but it is just silly conversion time i cannot afford for professional use. Really easier that trying to turn 60i to 24p, so also great for NTSC countries

It is all new in perfect state.

Located in switzerland.


Must go , because it turns me mad each time i see it.


----------



## trevorjharris

Came across this today

http://www.fixstars.com/en/codec/ 


The Accelcoder X claims to produce 3D blu-rays and m2ts files. I have not got it working yet but it seems to have very similar capabilities as Vegas with more options. It looks as though it is going to be more expensive than Vegas Pro but it might be worth it. It all rather depends on what Vegas Pro 11 delivers. Cannot wait for October 11 when Vegas 11 is due for release and we all find out what it can really do.


----------



## MatiasMesa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andrew_Woods* /forum/post/20983382
> 
> 
> Hello Matias, can you explain how these sample images were captured?
> 
> I'm wondering whether the method you have used to create these test images is responsible for the error.
> 
> The camera captures interlaced video so I'm wondering whether the left side is the odd field and the right side is the even field - this would partly correlate with the half-frame difference you described.
> 
> BTW: Your sample image shows a phase error (or a time offset) but not a speed difference.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew.





This is what we did:


We opened the Files on Adobe AE and used the field selector to see both fields, then we selected the left field and then the right one to find that both are not in sync. Its not a matter of camera speed but it is one of the camera (both L and R images) and not in sync they are not genlocked, both ayes should be seeing the same flash, not just one. What would be the right (best way) of handling the files that this camera produces? Is there a way of avoiding the Vegas?


Thanks For the help



Matias Mesa


----------



## trevorjharris




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nosys70* /forum/post/20998514
> 
> 
> if somebody is interested i am selling my TD10E for cheap.
> 
> It is a little marvel , just flawed by a stupid designer that choose to left 24p out of this camera. I will go with the NX3D1 that cost almost twice the price.
> 
> My camera is a TD10E, means an european camera that shoot 3D in 1080i50.
> 
> So you can easily turn it to 24p by deinterlacing 1080i50 to 1080p25 then slowing down to 24p. I have done it already but it is just silly conversion time i cannot afford for professional use. Really easier that trying to turn 60i to 24p, so also great for NTSC countries
> 
> It is all new in perfect state.
> 
> Located in switzerland.
> 
> 
> Must go , because it turns me mad each time i see it.



I certainly understand your feeling about the TD10. It does look as though it has been unnecessarily crippled and so is likely to damage Sony's reputation. When I bought mine I was not aware how limiting having only 1080i50 would be as I want it to produce 3D Blu-rays.


With previous models of Sony cancorders it has been posible to increase functionallity by programing registers via the Lanc interface. I wonder if this might be possible on the TD10. As far as I know Sony don't usually produce firmware upgrades for thier camcorders.


If you are going to spend that much on a camera the new Panasonic Z10000 looks very interesting.


----------



## nosys70

the pana is still not available and price announced are higher than the NX3d1.

I already purchased the NX3D1 thanks to a low dollar-swiss franc exchange rate.

Now i am looking for a 2nd one (for multicam).

The TD10E is workable if you can afford to convert files overnight and want a sub $1000 3D camera.

My workflow was shooting 1080i50, then split file into left/right with the 3D MVC converter from 3DTV.AT.

I use cineform codec as output.

Then deinterlace can be made with virtualdub (one of the best deinterlacer for free).

Then importing the files into Adobe Premiere into a 24p project and use option "interpret as" to force 25p to 24p (no conversion needed).

Then you got final export at 24p and you can encode with Cinevision (Sonic) to 1080p24 3D MVC, or use the cheaper Sony Vegas 10e.

We just need a free (or cheap) 3D MVC encoder, because currently all encoders (except Vegas) are very high priced (several thousand dollars at best).

I downloaded the AccelXcoder demo, but if the demo was free, the final price is annouced to be also over a thousand bucks.


For non professional use, the side by side blu-ray (allowed in any framerate) with a manual switch of the 3d TV mode is still the best solution.

So the TD10 would still rock here.


the NX3D1 also has its own curiosity, like : you can switch mode from 50i to 60i but then you need to format the internal harddisk, so no way to switch

from one format to another in the field.

the good thing is you have on the TD10 and NX3D1 a direct 3D output on the HDMI socket, so in theory it could be possible to record "uncompressed" 3D

with a compatible recorder.


Vegas is really nice with 3D, it is almost the only editor to work with 3D without fiddling too much to get it work.

If you use cineform codec, you can join a left/right pair of files into one AVI and edit as a regular avi, but it is still tricky to manage 3D preview into premiere.

For 3D titles, Corel just released a new version of an old application (remember Ulead 3D Studio ?) renamed Corel Motion 3D studio.

The only disapointment is the preview is only 2D or anaglyph (no other 3D mode for instance) and 3D output is limited to half size side by side.

(i hope future updates will include left/right render or at least full size side by side).

Good news is that all previous project from Ulead 3D studio can be opened with the new Corel release...


I also got a dual Sanyo FH1 with support for sale. These very small cameras can shoot an amazing 1080p60, and were my first rig for full HD 3D.

But synchronizing clips from 2 differents cards is just a pain and no 3D monitoring. So for this the TD10 is just like a gift from God.

My first 3D shot were made on a DV camera with the nuview adapter (for those remembering this strange lens add-on).

It was really a great piece of technology giving astonishing results. I still got it , like new.


Matrox has annouced what looks like the ultimate 3D box converter the Matrox MC-100 that allows you to input 2 HD-SDI (unsync) and get an HDMI 3D out.
http://www.stereoscopynews.com/image...00-2-300px.jpg


----------



## Andrew_Woods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MatiasMesa* /forum/post/20998625
> 
> 
> We opened the Files on Adobe AE and used the field selector to see both fields, then we selected the left field and then the right one to find that both are not in sync. Its not a matter of camera speed but it is one of the camera (both L and R images) and not in sync they are not genlocked, both ayes should be seeing the same flash, not just one. What would be the right (best way) of handling the files that this camera produces? Is there a way of avoiding the Vegas?



Hi Matias, thanks for your explanation. The TD10 does not produce side-by-side 3D files, so do I presume that you composited the side-by-side image in Adobe AE? What source files did you use? Did you separate the raw MTS/M2TS files from the TD10 into separate left and right files using another package - what software did you use? As far as I'm aware Adobe AE cannot read the M2TS 3D MVC files directly...


Might I suggest another investigation path... Please use Sony PMB (the software that came with the camera) to clip a 1 second segment (M2TS file) from your football video (one showing fast action and some camera flashes). Please don't separate the video into separate streams - keep it as a single M2TS (3D MVC) file. Upload the video somewhere (maybe dropbox) and post the link so that one of us can have a look for the time offset independently.


I still suspect the offset error is due to a problem in the software path.


----------



## MatiasMesa

Yes, that was the path, the conversion was done at a post production facility, so Im not sure what files they used. I will try your path, Just need to get my hands on a PC, all we use is MAC. This Sony anti Mac policy drives me crazy!!! Will do what you suggested and then will post it he rte. Thanks a lot, you´ve been very helpful.


Matias Mesa


----------



## Joseph Clark

I did my first serious tests today of the Cyclopital3D stereo base extender for the JVC TD1 camcorder. It's a device that extends the separation of the lenses from 35mm to 140mm. The increase in stereo depth is breathtaking. The company is going to be releasing one for the Sony TD10 as well. It should function very, very similarly. It's going to be one of my most valuable accessories from here on out. I was practically giddy watching the footage play back on my Samsung plasma when I got home.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

I got the information that there will be a similar tool for the Sony TD10 - would be great to learn more from your first tests.


----------



## nosys70

well , it is just a dual periscope, so if you get some piece of mirror you can easily build one

front surface mirror is a must.
http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/cat...mirrors_5.html


----------



## trevorjharris

@nosys70


Thanks for your posts. Deinterlacing has been the bain of my life. The best are extremely slow and most of the others are very poor. I must admit that the VirtualDub filter is good but the cineform deinterlacer looks quite good aswell. I wondered what you thought of the Cineform one.


----------



## nosys70

i think i read somewhere written from the director of cineform in his blog , that "real" deinterlacing was not part of cineform codec, and that virtualdub and smart deinterlace filter were superior for that purpose.(i can't find it back, but he says almoste the same here"

-----------------------------

"David NewmanMay 12th, 2008, 04:34 PM

Is it bad to let cineform HDLink to convert the 50i to 24P and edit along using 24P timeline (project) in NLE?


This is my first time converting movie to 24P and it looks odd to me the way the footage became blurring and a bit of slowmo. Or that the way it should be?


No it is bad, and it is certainly convenient, but deinterlacing is not ideal, as interlace itself is the wrong way to capture a progressive image. Every products deinterlacer will do something slightly different. The CineForm deinterlacer is optimized towards resolution, but with more motion blur (which can help fight strobing that occurs in 24p.) The 4% slow down is normal, and the best way to convert 50i to 24p"

-------------------------------


My concern with deinterlacing, is , as good as it can, it always introduce small artifacts. It does not matter for 2D, because it is so fast and small you would hardly see any small glitch.

The problem with stereoscopic, is that your brain is summing left and right picture, and any discrepancy will pop up like hell.

Add to the problem , that deinterlacing could possibly create a different result from different picture (left and right side), even if each side by itself looks ok.

here you can find many information to deinterlacing
http://100fps.com/ and see it is a bit like black magic....

That is why i do not want to take that route, and prefer to make a big loss on my TD10E , despite that with a bit of work and some chance, it still manageable.


----------



## Don Landis

editorial comment-


Several members have made derogatory comments on Sony's design choices for the HDR TD-10, suggesting that they made poor choices, primarily because those choices did not meet your professional needs.


You should not forget that Sony is a company that makes all levels of equipment for all levels of needs from Consumer to Professional to broadcast and even EFP needs, including those for 3D shooting at all these levels. You must not forget that the HDR TD-10 is Sony's _consumer level camcorder_ and is designed to work for the average consumer who wants a bit more than a simple point and shoot Bloggie 3D ( made by Sony as well). But, the TD-10 is NOT a professional camcorder and certainly not a Broadcast level package. To berate the company and complain that those system packages that have your desired features are too expensive indicates a lack of understanding on how the pro world works. Simply put- the needs of the professional are balanced by the ability to pay for the cost of the professional. So, cost of that level of equipment is usually not the issue for those who have the skill and talent to make a profit, even with a quarter million dollar rig! It is not Sony's fault you can't afford what you would like to have; that you chose a consumer camcorder based on cost. You should not then berate the company because they did not sell a professional camcorder for a consumer price.


Some suggest Sony crippled the camcorder to sell the pro version. This is really silly and based entirely on ignorance of what it takes to include the additional options desired. There ARE hardware limitations in the TD-10 that prevent the software upgrade to those professional features. While the form factor and outside design may look like a TD-10 the electronics internally, memory and chipsets, are not the same in the pro camera. Sony does not have a history of adding professional available features in an over designed consumer hardware package. Instead, they do improve the design with yearly new camcorder design releases. I accept that JVC does over design their consumer camcorders and make it possible to upgrade the firmware but that does not mean Sony does the same. I'm suggesting that Sony does not do things the same way as JVC and should not be berated because of it. If you want a JVC then buy the JVC but then you might be sacrificing other Sony features you take for granted.


There is nothing wrong with a professional using a consumer product but the real pro understands that limitation and bills accordingly for the job. The Pro using pro equipment can afford the more expensive features because his business can bill accordingly. It is much easier for a pro to do that than for a typical consumer to afford the pro packages.


Consumer packages are designed to get good results with minimum skill and knowledge. If your skill and knowledge is beyond the consumer level then you have to accept the fact your business skills may be lacking and you are not seeking adequately budgeted clients to afford the equipment matched to your ability. Stop berating Sony for that shortcoming. Invest in yourself and start marketing to the next level. As one who has been there done that, I can assure you those next levels will be surprisingly more demanding too. Your clients will have other expectations for what he is paying you than you feel is important but since he is paying the bill you have to satisfy those too.


----------



## trevorjharris

Don't really agree with you here Don. The main difference between professional and consumer cameras are the lens quality, SDI outputs and better audio inputs. The TD10 does support 50i, 50p and 24p in 2D mode which is why I suspect it has been crippled and would be able to support at least 24p in 3D. I accept that the NX3D will have some extra electronics but it is unlikely that Sony will produce a seperate chip set for the same functionality.


----------



## Don Landis

Trevor- Don't agree with your view on the main difference between pro and consumer is the lens quality and the few other specifics. I don't think this view is consistent throughout the Sony camera line although it probably applies to the use of XLR audio inputs. The Z1U and FXE used the same lens. The internal electronics was completely different. Major features offered in the pro line was a different recorder internally and different functions, plus XLR audio. I had both of those here and speak from experience. Few pro cameras have SDI output, this is reserved for a few broadcast level cameras.


The main difference between consumer and Pro cams is the ability to integrate the equipment with other professional hardware. The professional cams can and often do intergrate with broadcast as well. I know of no consumer camcorder that can do this. The prosumer camcorders can integrate with both consumer line and broadcast line.

With a kludge of adapters and work arounds any camcorder can integrate partially, but the task is easy with professional level equipment ( my discussion pertains to Sony only )


The difference between the professional shooter and the amateur shooter is not the skill level but whether you shoot as a business, or for hire vs just a hobby. Presently all my 3D work is as an amateur.


We both speculate on the issue of 24P in 3D mode. The TD10 is a single format recording 3D camcorder which can be switched to multiformat 2D. 24P is not the only additional feature in the pro version that requires additional circuitry and we do know that the Professional version of the TD10 is more robust in internal design and not just software and strap-on accessories. The TD10's right camera is much simplified compared to the left camera internals. As such it could be called a slave camera added for 3D. Giving that right camera dual or more modes would require additional circuitry not included in the TD10. That design difference comes straight from Sony.


I wonder, does anyone know for certain whether the JVC is using a format conversion to achieve 24P in their firmware upgrade or do they actually have the JVC designed for 24P mode and in the consumer version just had it disabled? Firmware activates it. I know some early 2D 24P camcorders were just conversions and not actually shooting in 24P natively. I wonder if JVC is pulling the same cheap street magic trick to claim 24P in their consumer TD1? I'm a cynic when it comes to things like that.


----------



## nosys70

don't agree at all neither.

It is not a problem of consumer or brodcast.

Sony created the blu-ray and was part in decision for all specifications, included 3D blu-ray.

So they got 3D TV, 3D blu-ray players, 3D software editing and 3D blu-ray authoring, so THEY KNOW. what ?

That the only standard you can get today to distribute or save 3D content is blu-ray and require 24p. So a 3D camera shooting anything else than 24p is just useless.

Like a car running with milk , instead gasolin. at first refill you will see where is the problem.


And for the difference between the TD10 and the NX3D1, are you sure ?

I have both, and believe me, you remove the handle and the sunshade and you got exactly the same camera (including weight), so i do not think the differences are so great as you said.


Ok, sony just miss the mark with the design of the TD10, they made a green banana and probably

sales figures will reflect the bad design choice. We do not need to attribute them evil mind, just warn potential buyers that they will not go far with the TD10 and the twice more expensive NX3D1 is a better choice if they can afford.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> That the only standard you can get today to distribute or save 3D content is blu-ray and require 24p.



Wrong! You are using antiquated knowledge. You do not need Blu Ray to create, or distribute 3D. Internally, I have been using alternate 3D storage and distribution methods here since I got my first 3D projector. Blu Ray is a nice high quality 3D format but it is not the only 3D storage and distribution format. I just added another here and it is working fine for streaming 3D.


> Quote:
> And for the difference between the TD10 and the NX3D1, are you sure ?
> 
> I have both, and believe me, you remove the handle and the sunshade and you got exactly the same camera (including weight), so i do not think the differences are so great as you said.



I trust the Sony engineer at NAB who told me there are many internal differences that make the extra features possible in the NX3D1.


> Quote:
> Ok, sony just miss the mark with the design of the TD10, they made a green banana and probably
> 
> sales figures will reflect the bad design choice. We do not need to attribute them evil mind, just warn potential buyers that they will not go far with the TD10 and the twice more expensive NX3D1 is a better choice if they can afford.



Can't argue that sales numbers point as that was not the thrust of my comment. I don't know how successful the sales were for the TD10. The only warning I see appropriate is to those buyers who don't know how to read specs and don't understand what is important to their needs. As my original point, buyers who bought the TD10 and now berate Sony for the design are, IMO, out of line. Sony never hid the fact that the TD10 was a single format in 3D. Those who believed that the camcorder could be upgraded were in fantasy land. So you think the internals are exactly the same because you weighed both? ROFLOL! I really thought you were smarter than that! I believe smart consumers who are ready to shoot with the TD10 will be quite satisfied with it and those I have spoken with agree with that 100%. A few professionals that can't afford the NX level pro designs and need those features, are the ones who are complaining. You seem to be defending the pro who can't afford the NX pro cams and they are justified in berating Sony for not offering needed pro features in the consumer product. Hey- I have over $30K invested in professional audio here and you don't hear me bitching that the TD10 doesn't support XLR inputs. I certainly don't feel that feature lacking will kill the popularity of the TD10, _edit_- Nor my ability to get good use of the TD10 for the purpose it was designed to do. I own two TD10's now.


----------



## tony3dd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21011030
> 
> 
> Wrong! You are using antiquated knowledge. Blu Ray is a nice high quality 3D format but it is not the only 3D storage and distribution format. I just added another here and it is working fine for streaming 3D.



Don, finally got nvidea vision and a planar monitor. I can see 3d video on their site, and youtube works in lower resolution. Unfortunately Vegas platinum 11 does not work with it. If you can point me at other player options that would let me view td10 output, I would be thankful.


As a totally amateur shooter / editor, I think the TD10 rocks .... Sony made this as small and simple as possible, so anyone can pick it up and be amazed. It's actually almost too small to be taken seriously.


Being a consumer cam, I wouldn't expect it to ever get any real upgrades, there's no money in it.


----------



## Don Landis

tony- I'm not familiar with your monitor. I also don't use Platinum anymore. Trying to make my life simple as possible with 3D







Oxymoron?










For TD10 work flow- viewing 3D clips with the simplest and quick and easiest way first.


1. I prefer to connect the TD10 directly to the 3D monitor using the hdmi connection.


After that it gets complicated-

2. To review in 3D on my computer I use the PMB software to export the clips to the computer, then I can play those clips using stereoscopic player.

Or, most often I go to straight editing and edit the clips in Vegas Pro v 10e. Render and then burn a BD-RE for review. Now with stereoscopic player I can also view the 3D without burning the BD-RE. Either works OK. Playing in Vegas Pro 10e is not full frame rate so that method is unsatisfactory. Maybe Vegas Pro V11 will work as it is promised. Soon to be released.


3. My latest method is to render to SBS full and play on my Popcorn Hour A-210 in my home theater. No need to burn a disk as it streams the full resolution 3D to the big screen is excellent quality. Only negative I see here is the SBS full needs to be in manual 3D mode on the monitor as the system does not auto switch to 3D.


I've tried many other ways but these seem to be the best and easiest depending on whether you are editing to BD or just watching clips.


----------



## Don Landis

nosys70 Since you have the Professional NX3D1, why don't you start a discussion thread for that camcorder. I'd be very interested in a thread like that to discuss the experiences of those using it. Not to read camcorder wars, however. I'm one who appreciates the right tool for the job.


----------



## trevorjharris

One thing I would say Don is that the situation is entirely my fault. I should have checked the Blu-ray 3D specs and not assume 50i was supported. Of course it might be the case in practice that 50i is supported on most players. The original blu-ray spec did not permit 1440x1080i50 with mpeg2 (HDV) but I have yet to find a player that does not support it. Of course Blu-ray may add 50i to the spec and all will be solved.


Are you sure it was a sony engineer you spoke to as most companies don't normally let real engineers loose at a sales show.


So I'm on the lookout for a replacement to the TD10.


@nosys70.


Do I take it that the handle on the NX3D is removable. This could be very usefull to me.


----------



## trevorjharris

@tony3dd


Most 3D editors use Nvidias page flip mode with opengl which is only supported on Quadro video cards. Nvidia 3D player and steroscopic player will work with gforce cards as well. Some people use SDI output and a SDI to hdmi converter but this is very expensive. Best to check with Sony which graphic cards are supported for 3d monitoring. From the Sony publicity on the Vegas Pro 11 it looks as though the quadro is required.


----------



## Don Landis

trevor- The discussion was with a Japanese gentleman who was called over by the sales/marketing guy ( American)when the questions got too technical for him. My only real trouble was I had to get him to repeat many of the answers due to the language barrier. But he really seemed to understand my questions. There was nothing specific, like chip numbers but just generalities such as "many differences inside to support lanc timecode, 24P 3D which was where the topic of my two questions.


The handle and the lens shade are removable. The handle nor the lens shade can be remounted on the TD10 as I tried it. The case of the NX3D1 is slightly different and has a mounting socket for both that the TD10 does not have. A physically modified NX handle can plug into the TD10 hot shoe and get XLR 2 ch audio with volume controls and pro mic according to the engineer, who thought the suggestion humorous. They don't sell the handle separately according to him but I believe it can be ordered through Sony parts as you can get almost everything from them. Just don't hold me to a good price or ETA for delivery.







Based on their other parts costs, my guess would be that handle with mic would be over $1000 from parts.


edit- One thing I did think interesting was that Sony showed the TD10 at NAB. It was the only consumer product there as traditionally, NAB is only professional and broadcast equipment. CES is only Consumer. I never asked why they were showing a consumer product along side the NX linup.


----------



## Prema999




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tony3dd* /forum/post/21011352
> 
> 
> If you can point me at other player options that would let me view td10 output, I would be thankful.



The latest Power DVD plays TD10 files out of the box, directly and via PMB...


----------



## tony3dd

Thanks Prema I'll check it out!


Trevor , it's pretty wild .. it recognizes the geforce 3d card , but gives me the warning I'm in non stereo display mode, ... no driver for the cheap cards.


Don, Planar is a Nvidea ready monitor ..... I'm pretty happy with it so far, except no remote.


----------



## trevorjharris

Just tried Powerdvd and it plays 3D blu-ray fine but not mvc file from TD10. It is very odd as the monitor does go into 3D mode but seens to display the left eye for the right eye too.


----------



## MatiasMesa

Here is the Link to shot I feel it has differences between the eyes, can somebody help me check it? I can't instal PMB because I'm not running SP3. I hate Windows!!!.


Thanks guys.


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43616434/20110724173612.m2ts 


Matias Mesa


----------



## Prema999




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trevorjharris* /forum/post/21015617
> 
> 
> Just tried Powerdvd and it plays 3D blu-ray fine but not mvc file from TD10. It is very odd as the monitor does go into 3D mode but seens to display the left eye for the right eye too.



PowerDVD Ultra version 11.0.2024.53 here.

Just drag and drop mts or m2t 3D (3D display device set to Nvidia 3D vision).


Then i just hit the 3D button and it plays perfectly.


----------



## Andrew_Woods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MatiasMesa* /forum/post/21019052
> 
> 
> Here is the Link to shot I feel it has differences between the eyes, can somebody help me check it? I can't instal PMB because I'm not running SP3. I hate Windows!!!.
> 
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43616434/20110724173612.m2ts



I get a 404 error - can you check the URL?


----------



## Andrew_Woods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trevorjharris* /forum/post/21015617
> 
> 
> Just tried Powerdvd and it plays 3D blu-ray fine but not mvc file from TD10. It is very odd as the monitor does go into 3D mode but seens to display the left eye for the right eye too.



Stereoscopic Player will play MTS 3D files generated by the TD10.

There's a trial download here: www.3dtv.at


----------



## MatiasMesa

It was uploading, please try again. Thanks


Matias


----------



## msv6001




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21011479
> 
> 
> 3. My latest method is to render to SBS full and play on my Popcorn Hour A-210 in my home theater. No need to burn a disk as it streams the full resolution 3D to the big screen is excellent quality. Only negative I see here is the SBS full needs to be in manual 3D mode on the monitor as the system does not auto switch to 3D.
> 
> 
> I've tried many other ways but these seem to be the best and easiest depending on whether you are editing to BD or just watching clips.



Don, what codec and what settings do you use for rendering 3840x1080 full SBS in Vegas 10e? I can't find them.


----------



## tony3dd

Well, I can finally see my td10 footage in 3d with steroscopic player, but I've been running around in circles trying to output a video that will play in full screen like the native td10 video.


I've output in a number of the 1920 1080 formats including blu ray and they only occupy half the screen when I go into full screen mode.


Am I just missing something? It's really making me crazy!


I'd be happy to render something with specific settings for upload if you guys could help me out.


thanks,

tony


p.s. is msv6001 Qs relevant to this ...


----------



## chang69

In stereoscopic player you can full screen on scaled and unscaled. One will put your 3d video in full screen.


----------



## tony3dd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chang69* /forum/post/21038388
> 
> 
> In stereoscopic player you can full screen on scaled and unscaled. One will put your 3d video in full screen.



yes, I know it's supposed to do that







it does for native td10 files. On some of my encodings, it just crashes when I full screen.


----------



## chang69




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tony3dd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> yes, I know it's supposed to do that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it does for native td10 files. On some of my encodings, it just crashes when I full screen.



I render in vegas to blu ray iso and mount the iso. Using stereoscopic player i just play the ssif file. 720p plays full screen as wel as other 1080p 3dz


----------



## tony3dd

thanks, I haven't tried that one ... yet


I was just getting back to say I have succesfully played the blu ray .avc video.

but the .m2ts version crashes in full


----------



## Andrew_Woods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MatiasMesa* /forum/post/20980080
> 
> 
> while taping a Soccer game at the Copa America a few weeks ago, the ball gets to the line before on one eye. or I got a Flash from the crowd and its both in both eyes.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MatiasMesa* /forum/post/21019052
> 
> 
> Here is the Link to shot I feel it has differences between the eyes
> 
> (snip)
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43616434/20110724173612.m2ts



I downloaded the footage and viewed it in Stereoscopic Player.

I cannot detect any missync.

I've paused the video on several sections where there is fast vertical ball or arm movement and I cannot see any vertical misalignment, which is what would be caused by missync.

Going back to my original suggestion and based on your explanations, it is probably a problem in the software or workflow that your post production facility is using to process the footage. They need to debug their workflow, or perhaps do the transcoding yourself. There are several workflows on the Windows platform which work perfectly. There might be proven workflows on the Mac platform but I am not aware of them.


----------



## Andrew_Woods

I was using my TD10 for a 3D shoot last night when it suddenly locked up...

I was in the process of recording when the first thing I noticed was that the zoom lever wouldn't do anything, and then noticed that the record button wouldn't stop recording either. Full motion video was still showing on the display, and the red "REC" label was on screen, but I couldn't control anything.

I had to remove the battery to regain control (I didn't have a paperclip on me to be able to press the RESET button).

I haven't ascertained yet whether the clip I was recording at the time is still on the HDD, but in a quick look, I suspect not.

Obviously a bit of a worry... Has anyone else encountered this?


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Have not seen that with my TD10 at all. Is that something, that happened just one time, or do you see that again and again with your TD10?


----------



## Andrew_Woods

Just once. Fingers crossed it's the only time.


----------



## tony3dd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andrew_Woods* /forum/post/21040831
> 
> 
> I was using my TD10 for a 3D shoot last night when it suddenly locked up...
> 
> I was in the process of recording when the first thing I noticed was that the zoom lever wouldn't do anything, and then noticed that the record button wouldn't stop recording either. Full motion video was still showing on the display, and the red "REC" label was on screen, but I couldn't control anything.
> 
> I had to remove the battery to regain control (I didn't have a paperclip on me to be able to press the RESET button).
> 
> I haven't ascertained yet whether the clip I was recording at the time is still on the HDD, but in a quick look, I suspect not.
> 
> Obviously a bit of a worry... Has anyone else encountered this?



This happened to me once, a couple of days after getting the td10, it hasn't reoccurred, but I haven't shot very much.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andrew_Woods* /forum/post/21040831
> 
> 
> I was using my TD10 for a 3D shoot last night when it suddenly locked up...
> 
> I was in the process of recording when the first thing I noticed was that the zoom lever wouldn't do anything, and then noticed that the record button wouldn't stop recording either. Full motion video was still showing on the display, and the red "REC" label was on screen, but I couldn't control anything.
> 
> I had to remove the battery to regain control (I didn't have a paperclip on me to be able to press the RESET button).
> 
> I haven't ascertained yet whether the clip I was recording at the time is still on the HDD, but in a quick look, I suspect not.
> 
> Obviously a bit of a worry... Has anyone else encountered this?



I had a similar problem during playback when everything froze. I was sure I had lost all my data but went to the manual and found instructions saying to disconnect the power supply which I did and all was good. By the way, what and where is the paper clip activated reset button? I wonder if I should have tried that first? Anyone used the reset button and are there any limitations or risks in using it?


----------



## cdb1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/21047031
> 
> 
> By the way, what and where is the paper clip activated reset button? I wonder if I should have tried that first?




Open the lcd screen and it's to the left of the power button as you look at it.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Prema999* /forum/post/21019430
> 
> 
> PowerDVD Ultra version 11.0.2024.53 here.
> 
> Just drag and drop mts or m2t 3D (3D display device set to Nvidia 3D vision).
> 
> 
> Then i just hit the 3D button and it plays perfectly.



I recall that if not in Cinema mode, powerdvd11 playback of mvc-3D files from the TD10 is actually a 2D to 3D conversion of just one eye. The result looked nowhere near as good as playback with the "Stereoscopic Player" software.


Stereoscopic player used the complete 3D 2-eye information from the MVC file


To get the actual 2 eye 3D playback with the powerdvd11 software, a bluray disk or iso of a bluray is needed, and the cinema mode of the powerdvd11 had to be selected.


----------



## trevorjharris

Thanks Richard I was a bit suprised when I saw a 2D video playing in 3D and your post explains why.


I have just been trialing Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11 and found it supported Nividia 3D vision on Gforce cards so it might be supported on Vegas Pro 11. I do my editing in Premiere Pro so Movie studio is all I need to produce 3D blu-ray. I am hoping like many others that Vegas Pro will add mvc encoding to m2ts files and the addition of 50i support in mvc. I would buy Pro if this was the case otherwise I would go with Movie Studio which is very good value.


----------



## trevorjharris

Powerdirector 10 is out and may be the answer to all our prayers. Unfortunatly the trial version does not support what we want but according to the manual it will produce m2ts files with mvc content. Until someone tries it we will not know if these can be played from the TD10. It also looks as though it will burn 3D blu-rays with menus. To get it to run I has to use 16bit mode on my Gforce 470 graphics card.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Have a look here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1366056


----------



## icerat4

PMB Bluray disk burning question from sony 3d camcorder.So i downloaded pmb and and the bluray software installed.I popped in a bluray disk and followed the prompts and choose the burn 2.0 deal.I have a 6x burner and the selections went on to the disk no problem.No editing nothing just burned.I do not have a bluray player to try it out but is thats all i need to do is fast burn to disk and its all good.How do i know the disk i made has The highest format mvc.Burned to it.I played it on coral and it just looked like a normal 2d bluray.


----------



## f13dfx

Hello all! I don't have much time as I am heading out-of-town and doing a test-drive of the Sony TD10.


All I wanted to confirm is that I am able to offload the recorded 3d video in MVC format to my PC (with the bundled software) and then play it from my PC to my Sony 3D Bravia using Stereocopic Player, correct? At least that is what I have dug up by going through a few pages on this thread.


I am not too concerned with authoring the files in full 3D on a Bluray right now but just more concerned that I am able to offload them from the camcorder to my PC without any loss in quality.


Excellent thread! Thank you all!


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f13dfx* /forum/post/21102157
> 
> 
> Hello all! I don't have much time as I am heading out-of-town and doing a test-drive of the Sony TD10.
> 
> 
> All I wanted to confirm is that I am able to offload the recorded 3d video in MVC format to my PC (with the bundled software) and then play it from my PC to my Sony 3D Bravia using Stereocopic Player, correct? At least that is what I have dug up by going through a few pages on this thread.
> 
> 
> I am not too concerned with authoring the files in full 3D on a Bluray right now but just more concerned that I am able to offload them from the camcorder to my PC without any loss in quality.
> 
> 
> Excellent thread! Thank you all!




Maybe we have been reading different posts, but I believe to see 3D on a 3D TV recorded by the TD10 (without creating a Blu-ray 3D disc) still requires playing back through the TD10 camera though the source of that playback can be from the computer's hard drive and/or an external drive. What I understand the updated PMB software to do is to facilitate creating a Blu-ray 3D disc without having to use more sophisticated 3D editing software such as Vegas. I'm sure we will get corrected one way or the other. I am assuming of course that it is full HD 3D that you are talking about and not a compromised version that degrades the original recording.


----------



## f13dfx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/21102907
> 
> 
> Maybe we have been reading different posts, but I believe to see 3D on a 3D TV recorded by the TD10 (without creating a Blu-ray 3D disc) still requires playing back through the TD10 camera though the source of that playback can be from the computer's hard drive and/or an external drive. What I understand the updated PMB software to do is to facilitate creating a Blu-ray 3D disc without having to use more sophisticated 3D editing software such as Vegas. I'm sure we will get corrected one way or the other. I am assuming of course that it is full HD 3D that you are talking about and not a compromised version that degrades the original recording.



NorthTV:


Good point......hope someone can clarify one way or the other.


I was doing a search and found this guide and it clearly shows in the Sony Vegas Pro 10e GUI that the OP has offloaded the TD10 files on to his PC's hard drive. Take a look at Vegas Pro's file explorer pane on top left side of 2nd JPEG from left of OP's guide: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1347180 


I also have downloaded 3 sample TD10 3D files that have been offloaded and posted on a couple of review sites with the extension .MTS


When I load any one of these sample files in Sony Vegas Pro 10e, this is what shows up in stream info:


Streams

Video 1: 00:00:20.800, 25.000 fps interlaced, 1,920x1,080x12, AVC, AVC

Video 2: 00:00:20.800, 25.000 fps interlaced, 1,920x1,080x12, MVC, MVC

Audio: 00:00:20.800, 48,000 Hz, 5.1 Surround, Dolby AC-3, Dolby AC-3


----------



## Don Landis

f13dfx- The referenced MTS file is a raw file from the TD10's internal memory. While it is possible to extract that file onto a computer hard drive and play it, the file has not been properly formatted for such purpose and will result in unexpected trouble. Even if you can play the MTS file it will not be suitable for editing, the audio and video will not be in sync and they may even be of different time lengths. The longer MTS clips will also be truncated to under 2Gb. All these issues are handled in PMB transfer. Always use the PMB software supplied with the TD10 camcorder which does a number of housekeeping tasks, including a file name change to transfer the video files from the TD10 to the Computer hard drive. This information has been posted here and in other forums hundreds of times but people still feel they have to do things the wrong way.

My suggestion is to just forget about the MTS file and do the transfer the way it was designed to.


----------



## f13dfx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21105017
> 
> 
> f13dfx- The referenced MTS file is a raw file from the TD10's internal memory. While it is possible to extract that file onto a computer hard drive and play it, the file has not been properly formatted for such purpose and will result in unexpected trouble. Even if you can play the MTS file it will not be suitable for editing, the audio and video will not be in sync and they may even be of different time lengths. The longer MTS clips will also be truncated to under 2Gb. All these issues are handled in PMB transfer. Always use the PMB software supplied with the TD10 camcorder which does a number of housekeeping tasks, including a file name change to transfer the video files from the TD10 to the Computer hard drive. This information has been posted here and in other forums hundreds of times but people still feel they have to do things the wrong way.
> 
> My suggestion is to just forget about the MTS file and do the transfer the way it was designed to.



Don Landis:


Thanks for the clarification. I have read your idiot's guide. Where I had assumed incorrectly was the raw MTS file. All I wanted to point out to NorthTV was that one could offload the videos taken by the TD10 using PMB on to their PC for archiving, and not having to connect to the TD10 for future editing using Sony Vegas Pro 10e.


----------



## f13dfx

BTW, I do not own a TD10 yet! I am doing a lot of reading in forums as I intend to buy one and give it a trial run on my trip to Europe


----------



## Don Landis

If you are planning a multiday trip to Europe, you may want to consider taking along a small USB hard drive. I have two here that are 120Gb Western Digital "Passport" USB 2.0 that I have used for extensive trips for archiving video for several years now. Today you can buy much larger like 320Gb and I believe 500Gb. These plug directly into the camcorder with a special supplied USB adapter cable that you get with the camcorder. In a couple days of heavy shooting you will fill up the camcorder's internal memory. You don't need a computer as the offloading of the clips is directed right in the camcorder's system. Read the manual for details. Once you have archived your clips to the drive each day you can then delete the clips from the camcorder to make room for more shooting. I always check the drive content first before deleting from the camcorder. You can play the external hard drive content from the camcorder by selecting it as your source. When you get home you can connect the drive to your computer and *use PMB* to convert the files for editing. Note- Offloading to a hard drive from the camcorder does not convert the files for use.


----------



## f13dfx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21107181
> 
> 
> Note- Offloading to a hard drive from the camcorder does not convert the files for use.



This refers to offloading to an external USB hard drive, correct? I'm assuming that when I get back from Europe I will hookup the USB hard drive to the TD10 and use PMB to offload them to my PC.


Great suggestion on the WD Passport Ext. USB hard drive. 500gb going for $79 CDN here in Canada










I get my hands on the TD10 today!


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f13dfx* /forum/post/21107940
> 
> 
> This refers to offloading to an external USB hard drive, correct? I'm assuming that when I get back from Europe I will hookup the USB hard drive to the TD10 and use PMB to offload them to my PC.
> 
> 
> Great suggestion on the WD Passport Ext. USB hard drive. 500gb going for $79 CDN here in Canada
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get my hands on the TD10 today!



One way I use the USB drive is for a simple backup while away from home, and to offload files from the TD10 to make more room for recording. So I take the USB drive with me to use each day. It's small.


Also, I prefer to record to a removable flash card plugged into the TD10's slot, since if anything bad happens to the TD10 which makes the files inaccessible, I will still be able to get to my files by taking the flash card out and putting it in a reader.


----------



## f13dfx

Okay, just got the unit. Took 2 short indoor test shots. I'm very impressed with low light capability.


I was able to copy the 2 test shots as well as the Sony 3D demo video into my 750gb WD Passport Essentials external usb hard drive.


I installed supplied PMB version 5.6. However, I found out that I have to go out and get a Male to Male USB cable as the one supplied goes from a Mini (from TD10) to a Female










Out to get one now


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f13dfx* /forum/post/21109716
> 
> 
> Okay, just got the unit. Took 2 short indoor test shots. I'm very impressed with low light capability.
> 
> 
> I was able to copy the 2 test shots as well as the Sony 3D demo video into my 750gb WD Passport Essentials external usb hard drive.
> 
> 
> I installed supplied PMB version 5.6. However, I found out that I have to go out and get a Male to Male USB cable as the one supplied goes from a Mini (from TD10) to a Female
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Out to get one now



The USB cable you need should already be in the box. Two usb cables are supplied with the camera.


There is a grey male to male cable to connect to a PC


There is a black male to female cable to connect the USB mass storage device such as the WD 750gb passport drive. Also be sure to have the AC adapter plugged into the camera and AC when connecting the WD passport drive to the TD10's black usb cable.


Save your money


----------



## f13dfx

Thanks Richard. Yes unfortunately it is a standard Male to Mini Male grey cable










I need a standard to standard


----------



## cdb1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/21055887
> 
> 
> I recall that if not in Cinema mode, powerdvd11 playback of mvc-3D files from the TD10 is actually a 2D to 3D conversion of just one eye. The result looked nowhere near as good as playback with the "Stereoscopic Player" software.
> 
> 
> Stereoscopic player used the complete 3D 2-eye information from the MVC file
> 
> 
> To get the actual 2 eye 3D playback with the powerdvd11 software, a bluray disk or iso of a bluray is needed, and the cinema mode of the powerdvd11 had to be selected.




I contacted Cyberlink in August about playing TD10 files as a 2D to 3D conversion and they fixed it by September. TD10 files are now played as 3d files, not 2d converted to 3d files. You might need to download a patch if you have this program and it isn't working as I said.
http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/pos...375.page#94795


----------



## Don Landis

Does your drive use a large size USB connection, like on a computer? The WD Passport HD's I have seen use mini USB so you just connect the gray cable to the special dongle that connects to the TD10 making a mini male to mini male and that works. Just make sure you connect your power supply to the TD10 as well, like Richard said. Just read page 44 of your manual! It's all explained.


One more thing I forgot- Be sure you format your drive *with the camcorder.* It will not only prepare the proper format but also set up the folder structure as needed to be compatible for TD10 media STORAGE.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cdb1* /forum/post/21109904
> 
> 
> I contacted Cyberlink in August about playing TD10 files as a 2D to 3D conversion and they fixed it by September. TD10 files are now played as 3d files, not 2d converted to 3d files. You might need to download a patch if you have this program and it isn't working as I said.
> http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/pos...375.page#94795



That's great information. I'll get an update.


Do you happen to know if any other files are supported for true 3D output, such as half SBS, full SBS, or top / bottom?


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21110888
> 
> 
> Does your drive use a large size USB connection, like on a computer? The WD Passport HD's I have seen use mini USB so you just connect the gray cable to the special dongle that connects to the TD10 making a mini male to mini male and that works. Just make sure you connect your power supply to the TD10 as well, like Richard said. Just read page 44 of your manual! It's all explained.
> 
> 
> One more thing I forgot- Be sure you format your drive *with the camcorder.* It will not only prepare the proper format but also set up the folder structure as needed to be compatible for TD10 media STORAGE.



This is different than the way I use my WD Passport with the TD10.


First, my WD drive measures 4.25" x 3.25" x 5/8" and is model number WDBACX0010BBk-01.


I do not use the Sony grey cable at all with the WD drive. I use the WD supplied cable which has a custom connector on one side, and a male USB on the other. The custom connector plugs in the WD.


The 7" long black Sony supplied cable has a mini usb that plugs in TD10. The other end has a standard USB female, This female end is where the standard male end of the usb cable from the WD drive plugs in.


In this configuration, the TD10 supplies power to the hard drive. This is why it is important that the AC power pack for the TD10 is used. These backups can take a good part of an hour if there is a lot of data to copy.


Please note: not all hard drives will work directly with the TD10. If the drive isn't recognized by the TD10, you won't be able to use it for a direct backup.


Don's reminder to format the drive with the format command from the TD10's own menus is very important. Even if the drive comes pre-formatted or you already formatted it with a computer, Let the TD10 be the one to format the drive before you being to use it for backup / copying files.


Also, the drive must be formatted with the FAT file system. This is the format that the TD10 will use. So if the drive was previously formatted with windows NTFS file system, it might be necessary to format the drive with FAT on the PC before the TD10 will accept it and let you do the TD10's format command.


Don, we should make a single page guide for this with a photo for future reference.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> I use the WD supplied cable which has a custom connector on one side, and a male USB on the other. The custom connector plugs in the WD.



Nothing custom about it. The Sony Gray cable is a standard USB *mini* to USB A ( flat) male to male. Your WD drive is the latest rendition of the Passport series. It has a USB A and a USB *Micro* male to male. In addition I looked up your model and see it uses the newest compatible Micro USB 3.0/2.0 connection on the drive. More and more, devices are switching to the Micro USB. My drives are several years old and use the Mini USB which is the same as the Sony Gray cable and the connector on the camcorder. The newer MicroUSB was made popular by cell phone manufacturers early in 2010.


As a reminder the special mini male to USB A female dongle is special for the TD10. Early on I grabbed a similar USB adapter from my parts box and it didn't work. Important to use the one supplied by Sony. The Mini USB has 5 pins, the pin 4 can be wired for a detection circuit. I suspect Sony rigged this in the TD10 to make sure people used the proper hookup with their dongle cable. Using the optional detection loop in the mini connector, Sony uses that to throw the TD10 into a "external USB device ( media hard drive or the Sony DVD burner) is connected" vs just a computer connection.


----------



## f13dfx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f13dfx* /forum/post/21109853
> 
> 
> Thanks Richard. Yes unfortunately it is a standard Male to Mini Male grey cable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I need a standard to standard



My apologies to all, I finally figured it out:

1. Short Black USB Mini A to Female Standard A USB is for connecting an external USB hard drive like my WD Passport.

2. The longer Grey USB cable which has USB Mini B on one end and Male Standard A USB on the other end is for connecting the TD10 to a PC.


I was fooled by the USB receptacle on the TD10 into thinking that it would only take the BLACK cable and not the GREY one, since the Mini A and Mini B connectors did not look the same.


Anyway, all is well sort of. My Sony Vegas Pro 10e is installed in my WinXP SP3 32bit OS part of a dual boot system with Windows 7 Professional 64bit, where I have installed PBM. Somehow, I cannot install PBM on my WinXP OS. It's just a hassle switching OS from PBM to Sony Vegas Pro.


Also, successfuly burned a 3D BD-RE of 4 test videos I took and offloaded to my PC via PBM. I used the 1280 x 720 60p template in Sony Vegas Pro 10e and it played fine on my PS3 and outputted to my Sony LX900 3D XBR.


Well I'm off to Europe with the TD10. Hopefully I'll be able to share/post some 3D videos/shots. Especially excited to do night shots of the Eiffel Tower.


Special thanks to Richard & Don for all the help!


----------



## Zakowsky

Speaking of idiots...after finally reading Don's note on this page about not just copying the MTS files and using PMB to import from the camera, I realized all the troubles I'm having trying to edit in Vegas are probably related to me just copying the MTS files. So it looks like my months of videos that I copied in USB mode lack some keyframe and bitrate information, which would explain the weird laggy videos I'm rendering. Damn. Does anyone know if you can at least re-index them or add the bitrate tag somehow? They play fine as they are, but as mentioned, causes editing woes.


So the reason I didn't use PMB is because I looked at it for a minute and couldn't stand the childish interface. My question is, will the Content Management Utility import the TD10 files 100% correctly? That I can use, rather than PMB.


Thanks.


btw - as people with 3DVision rigs probably know the new version of Vegas Pro (11) supposedly supports normal GeForce cards for 3D playback. Test before you buyI tried every configuration and couldn't get it to work. But I am using dual GTX 580's in SLI configuration, which should work (better) but as we know doesn't always.


----------



## Don Landis

To tell you the truth, I haven't even looked at the content management utility. Sounds interesting and if it works as suggested, it may shorten the workflow. I promise to check it out. Thanks for the suggestion. As for the comment about PMB looking childish???? Well, lets just say who's looking childish now?







.


Some card aren't supported but the 580 is definitely. Maybe you need to upgrade your drivers. I had to for my "supported" card. The other difficulty is getting all the configs set properly. You have three areas besides hardware wiring to be done properly. First set your windows up to recognize dual displays, then set the nvidia utility for correct resolution and which is which. Make sure your card is set to "extend the desktop" Finally you need to have Vegas set to recognize where to put the preview on secondary monitor.



On replacing clips with the proper ones, I know of no way to do that easily. There is a way to copy and paste event attributes to selected clips, but not to manage the cut points. If yopur clips were short, the issue of audio sync will not be severe. But my testing on a very stable system has no indication that Vegas crashing is caused by MTS files. Issues with MTS files are entirely sync, and truncated long clips that need stitched together. The file naming convention assigned by shooting time is merely a convenience. IMO selecting the clips with a 5 digit sequential number that is TD10 default is much harder to understand than the date time shot in the explorer. Of course once you add the clip to your timeline you can see the thumbnail of the MTS in the Project Media window.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> To tell you the truth, I haven't even looked at the content management utility. Sounds interesting and if it works as suggested, it may shorten the workflow. I promise to check it out. Thanks for the suggestion.




First of all it isn't called "content Management Utility" but I knew what you were talking about.

Curiosity kept me up another hour on this!










Well this is a game changer, indeed.


The procedure is pretty simple:

1. Connect your TD-10 to the computer with USB. Suggest you connect the power supply.

2. Ignore the PMB if it launches automatically.

3. Launch Vegas Pro

4. Select device explorer and your TD 10 will show up as a drive letter. In Device properties you can select a folder to import the selected clips. Then just select Import! Simple.


Cool features- You will get a complete breakdown on the clip meta data in a format that is easy to see. You can preview the clip before importing. and you get a thumbnail to see what the clip is.


Once your clip is imported you can put them to the timeline for editing.


Using the Device Explorer, you will get a slight variation to tne file name. It is better than either direct copy or PMB. The name begins with the MTS camcorder sequence number followed by the Date followed by the time of day separated by underscore_. Finally the file extension is MTS, not m2ts.


More good news: Like in PMB the clips that exceed 2Gb are properly stitched together for one clip file with synced audio.



I think I just retired PMB!











If you can't locate the Device Explorer, just do a search for it in the Vegas Help file!


----------



## Wolfgang S.

It makes no difference if you use the PMB, or the Content Mangement tool or copy the TD10 files directly from the harddisk of the TD10 to your PC. For short files that is fine. Longer files, that have been splitted during acquisition of the material, should be imported with the PMB or the Content Management tool - to ensure that you get the full audio without a break.


The only thing that you have to avoid for Vegas is to trimm the clips in the TD10. That kills the 3D effect in Vegas.


----------



## cdb1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/21111013
> 
> 
> That's great information. I'll get an update.
> 
> 
> Do you happen to know if any other files are supported for true 3D output, such as half SBS, full SBS, or top / bottom?




Sorry I don't. I only play them as they come off the camera in 120hz style.


----------



## f13dfx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21111647
> 
> 
> 4. Select device explorer and your TD 10 will show up as a drive letter. In Device properties you can select a folder to import the selected clips. Then just select Import! Simple.



I just tried this step but instead importing the saved 3D MTS files directly from my WD Passport USB External Hard Drive connected to my PC. Seems to work just as well.


Thanks for the guide Don!


----------



## Wolfgang S.

I think the hint with the device explorer is a great one. Works also fine for other AVCHD camcorders, like my Panasonic 750 (I want to combine the footage with TD10 footage).


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/21114248
> 
> 
> I think the *hint with the device explorer is a great one.* Works also fine for other AVCHD camcorders, like my Panasonic 750 (I want to combine the footage with TD10 footage).



Yeah, I can't wait to hear from Mark on this new and better workflow.










What's funny is Sony briefly went over this tool in the class but I forgot all about it until the reminder here. I was about to install PMB on my new computer, now I don't have to. It is obsolete!


----------



## Wolfgang S.

I think the PMB is an interesting product - for user who do not wish to spend a lot of time for editing their footage. And the new AVCHD 2.0 burning possiblity is a great one too.


For me the PMB is of limited interest only - and for you too maybe, because we to edit our footage in Vegas 10e/11a or the PD10 and that is another approach.


The device explorer is not necessry for all user too. If you shoot short clips only, where you do not touch the 4 GB limit of the internals hard disc or the sdhc chips, you simply can copy the files without any tool - it will work. But when you film a longer event - I had to film a concert - then you will fail since you have the well-known audio disruption. And that can be avoided with the PMB, the Sony conctent management tool and also with Vegas (what I prefer since you have a great preview what will be combined - as you said!).


----------



## Don Landis

Wolfgang- I agree that the Device Explorer is a tool that benefits us Vegas users and that not everyone should be into full editing. But I disagree that it is OK to simply click on and drag the camcorder virgin MTS file into the computer. It is not an issue here of whether you break the 2Gb limit but rather one where you get what we call a short term benefit for a long term pain. While the trouble may not be detectible in short clips the audio / video sync problem is still present and as you approach the 2Gb limit the error in audio video becomes worse. IMO, there are only two ways to transfer your files, PMB and Vegas Device Explorer. Both avoid trouble with the clip and both offer many advantages as well. Dragging a clip into the computer should only be done if you don't plan on doing anything with the file except trashing it. Of course why would you waste your time when the clip could be trashed in the camcorder?


Several people have tried the lazy route and avoided the proper procedure only to get into trouble wasting everyone's time as they blamed Sony for their own trouble. When does lip sync begin to cause trouble? And, if you deleted the original clip your stuck with your laziness. Not only that but as you shoot more clips, you will begin to suffer file naming matches and will be required to rename the files. When PMB or Device Explorer renames the clips for your computer, they get a unique number that is never repeated.


Remember- Short term laziness and long term pain!


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Don, I see your point. As usual, we have to know exactly what we do. And yes, you are on the sure side when you use the device explorer!


----------



## Zakowsky

Thanks for the response Don. So that others know, the software I was referring to actually is called Content Management Utility - it was described by trevorjharris back on page 35 in this thread. It's from the professional side of the Sony site, has a professional interface, and as you mention, displays the metadata for the video files well.


Wolfgang, f13dfx, and anyone else thinking about the importing files issue, you can do this experiment. Transfer a file using CMU (or I suppose PMB would work as well), so that the .m2ts file is created. Then just connect the camera as a USB device and copy the same .MTS file. Look at both with CMU (or any program that shows the metadata in detail) and you will see something surprising. Video bit rate, video frame rate, audio bit rate and audio sampling rate are all missing from the .MTS file but are present in the .m2ts file. Further, if you look at the concomitantly created .cmuprops file, there is a lot of key frame and codec information in there that, if it is actually missing from the .MTS file, would explain sync problems. And in fairness to people who did a direct transfer from the device rather than use PMB, I actually thought I would preserve more of the original format/information by doing it that way, as I believed I was archiving the most complete version of the file, so it was not because of laziness.


Also, I suppose it didn't come across, but what I was saying about the GTX 580 and previewing in Vegas 11 using 3DVision from NVidia is that yes, a single GTX 580 card probably works fine with two monitors, but if you have a more complex set up, there are still bugs in the system. I use at least 4 monitors at a time, and have a minimum of 2 video cards to drive them. When you have more than one video card, people (with the appropriate motherboard) often have them in SLI configuration. This is more for gaming, but it does allow you to define a 5760x1080 desktop and the multiple cards provide more CUDA processing power, which is useful for some. It is in these modes that Vegas 11 does not work. While it is true they say it works on single-display 3D computers, that in itself is not a clear statement, since we are talking about displaying on a secondary monitor anyway


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> And in fairness to people who did a direct transfer from the device rather than use PMB, I actually thought I would preserve more of the original format/information by doing it that way, as I believed I was archiving the most complete version of the file, so it was not because of “laziness”.



If you need that kind of additional information to edit then I suppose you have your tool in CMU but the laziness comment referred to those who admitted that using PMB was too much trouble to be bothered with because in their opinion they could just grab the 1234.MTS and begin working. If you followed the threads on this subject last summer, we spent too much time defending claims that Vegas was flawed, when the fact was the user was too lazy to follow the recommended work flow. I stand by my comment!









As for the 580 question, I don't believe I've seen anywhere that Sony claims to support more than primary and secondary monitors. People with more complex systems are obviously in the YOYO world regarding Vegas support so I don't believe it qualifies as a bug.

I sated before I have no problem with experimenting beyond recommended work flow and systems but I do take issue when those who do so claim the product is buggy because they aren't on track with what is supported.

We have enough real bug issues to get fixed without needing to chase after something that is not part of the supported system.


e.g. Last summer when we were working on the DD5.1 noise bug, a poster offered his "discovery" that the audio is also out of sync. That was an unnecessary distraction to the real issue since it was his work flow that generated the problem and not a bug.


BTW you are not alone with the more than 2 monitors and video cards. djamesb also is trying to get his to work too. I think he has 4 monitors.


----------



## itou31

Hello TD10 users,


I have just enough budget to change my 3d rig (2 FH1 sanyo).

I would like to have 3D zoom and perfect synchronization.

I think about the TD10 or GS-TD1 as they are nearly the same price.

Not easy to choose...

I think I would read more review ...


----------



## Wolfgang S.

If you wish to edit - then take the Sony TD10. Here you can use Vegas Pro. For the JVC TD1 you have to use the PD10, what is nice too but not compareable to Vegas really.


But that is only one aspect - in terms of other aspects the TD1 looks better (e.g. the stereo extender that is available, maybe also the manuel controlls).


----------



## Don Landis

Advantages of the TD10:

TD10 offers DD5.1 audio, more accessories, especially for the hot shoe, LANC remote control and direct Sony editing support for both amateur and professional editing Has wider angle lens and greater zoom range. Much higher resolution LCD monitor. The street price is now very attractive.


I don't necessarily agree that the JVC automatically gets a better picture, Joe Clark gets some of the best 3D video quality I've seen with these consumer camcorders with his JVC but I think he gets the credit there because he is a really good shooter. I think he would do equally well with the TD10.


Most people got the JVC because it was first on the market by a couple months.


----------



## itou31

thanks Don,

I think I will go with the TD10.

More compact and as I used to work with vegas, editing will be easier.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21125651
> 
> 
> Advantages of the TD10:
> 
> TD10 offers DD5.1 audio, more accessories, especially for the hot shoe, LANC remote control and direct Sony editing support for both amateur and professional editing Has wider angle lens and greater zoom range. Much higher resolution LCD monitor. The street price is now very attractive.
> 
> 
> I don't necessarily agree that the JVC automatically gets a better picture, Joe Clark gets some of the best 3D video quality I've seen with these consumer camcorders with his JVC but I think he gets the credit there because he is a really good shooter. I think he would do equally well with the TD10.
> 
> 
> Most people got the JVC because it was first on the market by a couple months.



Thanks, Don. I appreciate the kind words. I wish I could hack these cameras and combine their best features.







I really miss some of the Sony features that you detail above. I have to say, though, that the more I use the JVC, the better I like it. Much of that has to do with the manual/semi-automatic features. I've gotten some of my best footage in the last few weeks, because I stopped shooting in full auto mode most of the time. And the Cyclopital3D adapters I've bought for it (stereo base extender and 77mm adapter) have yielded some incredible footage.


By way of clarification (though I know you understand this), I can and do edit my JVC footage in Sony Vegas, Adobe Premiere and PowerDirector 10. For Vegas and Premiere editing, there's an extra (tedious and hard drive hogging) step (and program) that TD10 users don't have to go through if they choose to edit the original source footage in Vegas, but the results are similar. Honestly, I think for most people, PowerDirector 10 is a fantastic way to edit the JVC footage (and I'm assuming the Sony footage). It works with the original MVC (mp4) files and it's fast and easy.


PD10 is not a heavy duty editor. Don't expect the fine control a Vegas or Premiere offers. It also has serious motion issues converting my 60i JVC footage (which the Sony also shoots in) to 24p when I burn a 3D Blu-ray. I don't expect to be able to use some of that footage (if it's destined for 3D Blu-ray) unless I process the footage first through Yadif (Yet Another De-Interlacing Filter). I've yet to do much with the program, but from what I've seen so far, I'd say PD10 will be a real contender for users of both these camcorders. And it's on sale now for $90.


----------



## Joseph Clark

I expect Sony TD10 users will have the same motion issues (due to how PD10 de-interlaces 1080i to 24p) as JVC users. If someone knows different, they should speak up. The way around this is to use Yadif to de-interlace, or simply to edit completely in 60i mode and output to a 60i m2ts file. PD10 does this extremely well. When the new AVCHD 2.0 capable 3D Blu-ray players become available, we *should* all be able to use our original footage without converting to 24p. Of course, this will also mean that such discs will not play on older 3D Blu-ray players. This is based on my understanding of what the new AVCHD 2.0 standard will provide. I don't know for sure. What is becoming clear is that the future for 3D editing looks brighter all the time.


----------



## Don Landis

AVCHD 2.0 will be a tough sell if it requires new players. Bad enough anything new requires a firmware upgrade. It took me 5 years before I would trust making and selling productions on DVD due to player compatibility issues. If AVCHD 2.0 requires new players, it will never fly!

For home video, I have no problem working in what renders smooth motion and glitch, judder free 3D. That for me is using 720p60 on BD-R. If I wanted to do this 3D for hire, I'll get professional cameras that shoot in the format that I need natively, i.e. 24p. It is really the best all around solution to profitability. And, when it comes to shooting professionally, profitability is the key factor, the bottom line. In addition, if needing to author 3DBD, I'll author in Blu Print, not PD10.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21127640
> 
> 
> AVCHD 2.0 will be a tough sell if it requires new players. Bad enough anything new requires a firmware upgrade. It took me 5 years before I would trust making and selling productions on DVD due to player compatibility issues. If AVCHD 2.0 requires new players, it will never fly!
> 
> For home video, I have no problem working in what renders smooth motion and glitch, judder free 3D. That for me is using 720p60 on BD-R. If I wanted to do this 3D for hire, I'll get professional cameras that shoot in the format that I need natively, i.e. 24p. It is really the best all around solution to profitability. And, when it comes to shooting professionally, profitability is the key factor, the bottom line. In addition, if needing to author 3DBD, I'll author in Blu Print, not PD10.



Yup - 720p60 works today with old players, but not for average consumer.


Likely all players will become 2.0 in the next model round. Good consumers like icerat4 that want to make a bluray from their TD10 (and 2D 1080p60 camcorder) recordings will buy a new bluray player to view these, and so will their friends / family that want to view the disks.


New 2.0 player likely soon will be under $40.


I just supplied the Oppo engineering with samples and other info about the 2.0 they need to support.


@Joseph Clark- I didn't think PD10 would edit in 1080i60 and output 1080i60 without a recode, so I will have to look at that again.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/21127002
> 
> 
> PD10 is not a heavy duty editor. Don't expect the fine control a Vegas or Premiere offers. It also has serious motion issues converting my 60i JVC footage (which the Sony also shoots in) to 24p when I burn a 3D Blu-ray. I don't expect to be able to use some of that footage (if it's destined for 3D Blu-ray) unless I process the footage first through Yadif (Yet Another De-Interlacing Filter).



Well Joe, I told you exactly that you have a serious motion issue when we discussed your stereo base extender video. But that is not due to the PD10, that is due to your decision to convert 1080 60i footage to 1080 24p. It would happen also with Vegas.


That is why I said that the best way would be to render to 720 60p, regardless if you use Vegas or the PD10. Here the yadif plugin will help in Vegas, since the deinterlacing is better then the deinterlacing in Vegas. But the more important point is that you do not change the frame rate when you convert from 1080 60i to 720 60p - you make an deinterlacing and a downscaling what will still cost some quality, but will still deliver results that can be used. The conversion from 1080 60i to 1080 24p would require that EVERY frame must be calculated new - and that is something that will cost much more quality.


And yes, it is not an issue of the JVC TD1, it is also an issue of the Sony TD10 - since it is not the camcorder but the format conversion from 60i to 24p that drives that problem.


And Richard, for sure 720 60p will work on every 3D Blu Ray player. Simply, because the 3D specification foresees for 3D BD-R only 3 formates - 720 60p, 720 50p and 1080 24p. So if you author a 3D Blu Ray with 720 60p, and if your customer has a 3D Blu Ray player, that will work for him.


For PAL users there is a possible solution, if somebody does not like to convert 1080 50i to 1080 24p - the solution is to strech the timeline by the roughly spoken 4%, so that every frame from 50i fits the new position of the frames in a 23.976 (IVTC film) project. But that cannot be done if you start from 1080 60i. But even for PAL you never ever will be better then if you would render to 720 50p, since your acquisition footage is interlaced.


The best way to overcome that is to shoot during aquisition in 1080 24p - either using the professional version of the TD1 or the TD10, or to use the upcoming Panasonic Z10000.


And yes, the output to 1080 50i or 1080 60i would help if you start with 50i/60i in your camcorder, but only if they extend the 3D Blu Ray specifiation for that footage. What they have not done by now, what I think is a shame - there is no technical reason that would forbid that.


The only charm of AVCHD 2.0 is, that it allows to use 1080 50i/60i in a BVDA structure on BD-R. Well, up to now we only have the PMB 5.8 for that, but maybe tools like the PD10 can incorporate in future a simple authoring for such an "AVCHD-BD", similar to what we had in the past in Ulead authoring tools like the Moviefactory (= Filmbrennerei). That would allow to stay with 1080 50i/60i, allow some simple authoring - but that is still some future thinking.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Richard,


Right now, PD10 does require a recode to output a 1080/60i file. I was just speculating about what AVCHD 2.0 might bring to the table. That's why I asked for people who know more about the standard than I do to clarify. What I do know is that the m2ts 60i file that PD10 created from my footage looked good and didn't have the 60i to 1080/24p motion problems that the 3D Blu-ray output had.


Wolfgang,


I did the tests with Vegas months ago and decided that 1080/24p 3D Blu-ray is what I want to use. There are some shots that require the Yadif filter, but for most the Vegas 24p output looks great without it. The end result is far better than 720/60p. As you know, both conversions compromise the image, but the loss of resolution (and other artifacting) at 720p is much worse than what happens because of the frame rate conversion. For other types of projects than my Missouri Botanical Garden video, the story would be different. Motion is a problem I can work around, and the Garden comes off best at the higher resolution.


Don,


It can get confusing talking about professional vs consumer gear. For most little stuff I shoot, minimal editing is required. If it's just my nephew's soccer game, I don't spend a mountain of time on it. It's fast and easy, or it doesn't get done. That's where PowerDirector 10 is going to be a tremendous asset for most people. It's so darn fast and easy to pop the SD card out of my JVC, throw the clips on the timeline, add a dissolve or fade here and there, create a simple title and let the program do its thing. Easy peasy. I'll tweak my Garden project(s) to death, and I'll need the fine control a professional editor provides.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Joe, then I would look for a 1080 24p Camcorder, if possible - maybe the upcoming Panasonic Z10000, or the professional version of the JVC TD1?


----------



## Don Landis

Wolfgang- The interesting thing about Joe's Garden project is that throughout, it has little movement. Therefore he gets away with the 60i to 24p conversion. In my first edit project I was happey with my video until I got to the section where I was riding on a tram ans shooting the scenery as it moved by. The entire section was jerky along the horizontal. When I did move to 720p, the video was just fine in image quality and the motion artifact from the tram was gone.


Old story- years ago, I often heard young newbie videographers beg to shoot that "film look" My comment was if you want film look so much, then go shoot film. Today we can get 24p in a video camcorder and with a bit of color tweaking, make video look like film. So, my comment is the same- Go shoot 24p. It really is the only way to avoid trouble. But, even if you read the SMPTE specs on shooting 24fps, pan and zoom speeds still have speed limitations.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/21128552
> 
> 
> Joe, then I would look for a 1080 24p Camcorder, if possible - maybe the upcoming Panasonic Z10000, or the professional version of the JVC TD1?



I like the JVC so much that I'm seriously considering upgrading to the JVC HMZ1 (the pro version of my camera), which shoots at 24p. That would solve the conversion problem. The irony is that it costs about the same as my TD1 did just a few months ago. It also has even more manual control than the TD1, and my stereo base extender and 77mm adapter will work with it. And if things go well in this hobby for me, I'll do what Don just did - build my own dual camera 3D rig with a variable interaxial.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21128757
> 
> 
> Wolfgang- The interesting thing about Joe's Garden project is that throughout, it has little movement. Therefore he gets away with the 60i to 24p conversion. In my first edit project I was happey with my video until I got to the section where I was riding on a tram ans shooting the scenery as it moved by. The entire section was jerky along the horizontal. When I did move to 720p, the video was just fine in image quality and the motion artifact from the tram was gone.
> 
> 
> Old story- years ago, I often heard young newbie videographers beg to shoot that "film look" My comment was if you want film look so much, then go shoot film. Today we can get 24p in a video camcorder and with a bit of color tweaking, make video look like film. So, my comment is the same- Go shoot 24p. It really is the only way to avoid trouble. But, even if you read the SMPTE specs on shooting 24fps, pan and zoom speeds still have speed limitations.



Right. I love movies, but I believe there's nothing "magical" about film technology. I'd shoot 60p video before I'd shoot film any day. I don't like the low frame rate (though it works in my favor with the current project) and I don't like film grain. Give me HD video and smooth motion and I'm a happy camper. If we can do 1080p/60 3D some day, I say the sooner the better.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21128757
> 
> 
> Wolfgang- The interesting thing about Joe's Garden project is that throughout, it has little movement. Therefore he gets away with the 60i to 24p conversion.



Yes I know that - there was only one small movement in this great footage, a women moved slightly. It need a trained view to see that this movement was not smart.


Unfortunately either Joe sticks with no movement and this imperfect conversion, or switchs to 1080 24p - and I see you see that similar:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21128757
> 
> 
> Today we can get 24p in a video camcorder and with a bit of color tweaking, make video look like film. So, my comment is the same- Go shoot 24p. It really is the only way to avoid trouble. But, even if you read the SMPTE specs on shooting 24fps, pan and zoom speeds still have speed limitations.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/21128785
> 
> 
> I like the JVC so much that I'm seriously considering upgrading to the JVC HMZ1 (the pro version of my camera), which shoots at 24p. That would solve the conversion problem. The irony is that it costs about the same as my TD1 did just a few months ago. It also has even more manual control than the TD1, and my stereo base extender and 77mm adapter will work with it.



Yes, I agree that this woul be a nice solution - and the HMZ1 is a great camera. I miss a lot of manual controll both in the TD1 and the TD10, that is why I am waiting for the Z10000.


I was also investigating the possiblity to go for 2 cameras and a 3d rig. But the disavantage is, that this tends to become heavy and more complex, with the controller and the adjustment and a big steadycam... . I like the capability to move if I shoot people, as Don says!










And for sure I would like to have 1080 50i also as render result - but that is something where you need professional MVC encoders.


----------



## Don Landis

Joe- Does the JVC pro version have Lanc? Having worked with and without it, there is no way I want to go back to not being able to sync the two cams. It can be done but the calibration is a real chore just to get a shot. With Lanc sync its as easy as hitting the switch.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21129296
> 
> 
> Joe- Does the JVC pro version have Lanc? Having worked with and without it, there is no way I want to go back to not being able to sync the two cams. It can be done but the calibration is a real chore just to get a shot. With Lanc sync its as easy as hitting the switch.



Unless I'm badly mistaken, it does not have LANC. From my point of view, that's its biggest weakness. I've gotten around some of the drawbacks of the TD1 with the stereo base extender and 77mm adapter, but that limitation (as far as I know) is not going to change.


Here's the deal for me: to get really satisfying 3D, I'm know I'm going to need to add a dual camera rig to my shooting gear. That means dual Canon or dual Sony camcorders (24p capable) on a variable interaxial bench system like Frank or Don's. And the rig will have to have dual LANC control. That raises the level of complexity and the difficulty of setup/shooting/editing and every other part of the production and post production process. The way I shoot, I just don't want to deal with that right now. I'm absolutely convinced that I can make my Garden project work with the tools I already have. IMO, the JVC TD1 is a phenomenal camcorder, and I'm sure the HMZ1 pro version is even better. I don't see myself selling the TD1 (unless I do it as an upgrade to the HMZ1), because it does so many things well - without a lot of fussing about during setup.


A dual camera/variable interaxial rig, though, will give me the ability to shoot at a much greater wide angle and get the kind of depth I love with the TD1 and Cyclopital3D stereo base extender. Footage from the dual camera rig should also be easier to work with, since I won't have to worry about MVC files in post - just left/right AVCHD streams.


So, that's the tradeoff - to get the most flexibility when shooting, I need a dual camera rig. But that adds considerable weight and hassle to the process. I'll have to see just how successful I am with my Garden project. If it works really well, I may invest the time and money to go dual camera. If it isn't all I hope it will be, I'll probable stand pat for quite a while longer. I'm sure in a couple of years, we'll be looking back on this time and laughing at how primitive it all was.


----------



## itou31

Hello,


Just click on the button "ORDER".

Now I should read all your recommendations through several posts about this cam.

...







whouah, just realised that I will become a TD10 user ! (and all tha pain that come with !







)


----------



## JStegin

I tried the capture feature in VHS11 (jpg) and the 3D is not correct. How do I cut a single frame from my 3D timeline imported from the TD10?


Thanks


----------



## Don Landis

Pause your timeline to the frame you wish in jpg, (anaglyph or SBS) jpg Then click on the "save snapshot to file" ( icon of a floppy Diskett in the preview window) You'll get what you see in the preview window so if you want the highest quality be sure to set the preview for Best full.


----------



## JStegin

Don,


I tried that and the 3D view did not look right. I was able to split a frame out of the timeline, duplicate it multiple times and then make a subclip. It looked top quality when placed back in the timeline for rendering. I also had to go to properties-media to turn stereoscopic to SbS.


Thanks for your ongoing help!


----------



## Don Landis

I'm not sure what it is you are trying to do. Thought you needed a jpg image of one place on the timeline but if all you need to do is pause the video as it plays, you can do that by doing what you started, split off the last frame and then grab it on the right side and while holding down the control key drag it out and that will create a still frame. There are other techniques more advanced using a velocity curve too that will allow you to _ease to_ the pause.


----------



## JStegin

Yes, that is what I want to do and much simpler. I was dragging the frame before but without holding ctrl key.


Thanks


----------



## Don Landis

More tips and tricks-

Use the same technique to create a slomo without using a velocity curve. split off a part of the clip you wish to have in slomotion ( more than one frame) and ctrl drag to stretch it out and it will play in slomo. You will see a zigzag line in the center of the clip that denotes it isn't playing normal but in slomo, also fastmo by squeezing it shorter. Use a velocity curve when you need a smooth ramp of the speed change but a velocity curve applies to the entire timeline which may not be desirable. Also, be careful with how this affects your audio.


----------



## tblunt

I am new on this board but I have one for sale on eBay if anyone is looking. I am not sure if I can post about this stuff so delete it if not policy. I did not see anything in the FAQ. Lowest price you will find for $950.


Thanks


----------



## threed123

This is odd. I just started reading this thread this week and everyone went on vacation. Hello???


Anyway, where is the best place to get one of these new right now? Also, does anyone here have experience with the TD10 and the new Optoma HD33/HD3300 3D projector. I have one and am thinking of getting the TD10 (now shhh, don't tell my wife...







).


Edit: Found one just over a grand with another battery and case included. Now we wait for the Santa UPS man.


----------



## Don Landis

threed123- That's about the right price these days. I paid a grand for my second one in September. Then they threw in a bunch of extras for free too. I got two batteries and a aftermarket charger as a bonus. You did good, Enjoy!


----------



## Zakowsky

I have a very simple question that reading through threads here doesn't seem to bother anyone but me, so maybe I'm missing something...


If you want to render 3D SBS, even if you select Full, the 2 side by side images are in a 1920x1080 frame. That cuts the resolution in half, and you can't change the resolution to 3840x1080 with most of the codecs, nor can you render top/bottom at 1920x2160. So how do you do side by side (or top/bottom) at the original resolution per frame? It works to use line alternate 3D encoding (and it plays in Stereoscopic Player), but if you want to put it on Youtube 3d or something, it has to be SBS. Thanks.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Zakowsky* /forum/post/21170292
> 
> 
> I have a very simple question that reading through threads here doesn't seem to bother anyone but me, so maybe I'm missing something...
> 
> 
> If you want to render 3D SBS, even if you select Full, the 2 side by side images are in a 1920x1080 frame. That cuts the resolution in half, and you can't change the resolution to 3840x1080 with most of the codecs, nor can you render top/bottom at 1920x2160. So how do you do side by side (or top/bottom) at the original resolution per frame? It works to use line alternate 3D encoding (and it plays in Stereoscopic Player), but if you want to put it on Youtube 3d or something, it has to be SBS. Thanks.



You haven't read through all the threads as we have had a lengthy discussion about this recently in order to create a work flow to export 3D video for import to Power Director 10. Hint: Use AVC Main Concept codec and set the pixels to custom and then enter your numbers. Also in Project set the render output to SBS or TB Full depending on what you want to do. Warning- While this codec seems to be the only one that permits oversize pixel settings, render results appears to be rather buggy, even in the latest release. I have found only TB Full to work with perfect render quality. Wolfgang using Pal claims to have success with SBS Full.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Don is right - if you are taling about the export from Vegas, then you can use the MC-AVC enoder to do so (if you are talking about the export from PD10, there are more possiblities).


There could be differences in the export, maybe depending if you start from between PAL MVC 1080 50i footage, and NTSC MVC 1080 60i footage. Even if it is still not clear to me if that are really the differences. I test some footage from Don at the moment.


But fact is: you can use the MC-AVC encoder in Vegas, either top/bottom full or sbs full, to export MVC footage from Vegas. Maybe you have to test that on your machine, we can tell you our templates but you have to try.


----------



## threed123

Newbie question: Is this the software I need?


Sony Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11 Production Suite


It's fairly cheap right now at $66.


Edit: Okay, I read a review that it doesn't allow creating 3D blu-ray disks, but I thought I read on this board that there is software to do this. Did I miss something?


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Sure, you can use Vegas Moviestudio 11 HD Platinum - but be aware that it is a 32 bit Application, what has some clear limitations for 3D, especially if the project becomes longer. Due to that many users are not happy with VMS. The better choice - but more expensive - would be Vegas Pro 10e or Vegas Pro 11.


There has been a new update for VMS 11 some days ago. I recommend you to test the gratis trial before you purchase.


----------



## threed123




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/21170973
> 
> 
> Sure, you can use Vegas Moviestudio 11 HD Platinum - but be aware that it is a 32 bit Application, what has some clear limitations for 3D, especially if the project becomes longer. Due to that many users are not happy with VMS. The better choice - but more expensive - would be Vegas Pro 10e or Vegas Pro 11.
> 
> 
> There has been a new update for VMS 11 some days ago. I recommend you to test the gratis trial before you purchase.



Thanks, my bigger problem is I have Windows 7 32 bit loaded on my PC, so I'm stuck either way. But I want to confirm the VMS will allow me to cut a full 1.4 compliant 3D blu-ray disk or not?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *threed123* /forum/post/21171078
> 
> 
> Thanks, my bigger problem is I have Windows 7 32 bit loaded on my PC, so I'm stuck either way. But I want to confirm the VMS will allow me to cut a full 1.4 compliant 3D blu-ray disk or not?



Unless you want lots of frustration and limitations, you really need to be running 64 bit OS for 3D editing. Others have done it but the process is painfully slow. I recall bravia3D stating he was waiting a week to do a render.


Here is what Microsoft says about your prospects:



> Quote:
> If you want to move from a 32-bit version of Windows to a 64-bit version of Windows 7 or vice versa, you'll need to back up your files and choose the Custom option during Windows 7 installation. Then, you'll need to restore your files and reinstall your programs. For more information about performing a custom installation, see Installing and reinstalling Windows 7*.
> 
> Notes
> 
> Notes
> 
> 
> To install a 64-bit version of Windows 7 on a computer running a 32-bit version of Windows, you'll need to start, or boot, your computer using a 64-bit Windows 7 installation disc or files.



In any event you should start with a hardware compatibility test first. But, if your system is old and small, chances even with windows 7 64bit the process will be frustrating.


My experience was that in SD video DV source, I could easily edit complex stuff on a dual core laptop wunning 32 bit win XP. When I wanted to edit HD video I had to go to a quad core 64 bit with about 8Gb of ram and Vista 64bit to edit satisfactorily. When I started editing in 3D, that quadcore was brought to it's knees. I had to upgrade to win7 64 bit on a new i7 with 8 cores and 12Gb ram. 3D editing with MVC file structure is the most intense processing work you can do on your computer. If it is weak, you will not like it.



BTW- the "1.4 compliant" referes to the 3DBD player and the hdmi connection ports. Not the editing software. VMS will, however, allow you to edit Sony Camcorder HDR TD10 clips on the timeline and burn the render to 3DBD-R so that a real 3D Blu Ray player will auto sense 3D and switch your monitor to 3D.


----------



## threed123

Ugh, I was afraid my computer would not be up to it. And now it looks like the company I ordered the TD10 from doesn't have them stock and might be changing the price on me...so the adventure limps along.


Thanks, Don and Wolfgang. It's people like you that make this all come together for the rest of us...


----------



## itou31

hi everyone,


Just have my TD10E (PAL)

Check PMB, CMU and Device explorer from vegas 11.

As I use vegas, I find that device explorer a very good method for transfer. Thanks Don.

I have check CMU for extract to L/R files, but have something strange in the properties of one of 3D video files : codec found is AVC and not MVC (so it cannit be splitted into 2 files). The LCD screen is very good.


----------



## bravia3D

You forsure want Windows 7 64bit. When I used 32 bit it was very slow and would often take days.


----------



## Zakowsky

Thanks for the response Don, Wolfgang. I had tried the MC-AVC encoder and got what was perhaps similar results as Don...mine was choppy no matter what I tried. Then as a test I tried encoding a 3840x1080 clip in Premiere using their MC encoder and it played fine, so I figured it was just a bug with Vegas.


But I just ran a test again with Vegas, with the new 425 build of 11, and the MC was perfectly smooth with SBS 3840x1080! So that is good to go, I just wish MC supported 5.1 Dolby - I guess you could render the audio separately but it would be nice if you could do it in one shot. Is there any disadvantage to using Line Alternate for output? Doesn't seem as smooth as SBS to me...


Btw to the people with processing power woes with their system and limited resources, don't forget Vegas (and some other programs) can use the GPU in addition to the CPU for rendering, and it does make a difference. So adding a newer or second video card not only gets you a nicer video setup, but a rendering speed increase for not too much money, and you don't have to upgrade your whole computer.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *itou31* /forum/post/21172777
> 
> 
> As I use vegas, I find that device explorer a very good method for transfer.



Do you use Vegas Pro or VMS? For VMS there was a bug in the device explorer, clips longer then 20 minuts were not imported in a correct way. But there is an update for the VMS, where that is fine now.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Zakowsky* /forum/post/21173821
> 
> 
> I had tried the MC-AVC encoder and got what was perhaps similar results as Don...mine was choppy no matter what I tried. Then as a test I tried encoding a 3840x1080 clip in Premiere using their MC encoder and it played fine, so I figured it was just a bug with Vegas.



Well, the MC encoder in Premiere is not the same as in Vegas. Different builds, different software dlls - so we should be carefull here.


Funny, I still have not been able to reproduce the choppy results that Don and now also you have seen. Regardless what I try.


So with which version (VMS or Vegas Pro, and which build) have you seen that choppy results?


Because:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Zakowsky* /forum/post/21173821
> 
> 
> But I just ran a test again with Vegas, with the new 425 build of 11, and the MC was perfectly smooth with SBS 3840x1080!



Maybe that is the reason why I am not able to repro - because I use Pro 11 build 425/426.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Zakowsky* /forum/post/21173821
> 
> 
> So that is good to go, I just wish MC supported 5.1 Dolby - I guess you could render the audio separately but it would be nice if you could do it in one shot. Is there any disadvantage to using Line Alternate for output? Doesn't seem as smooth as SBS to me...



Well, the render templates of the MC AVC encoder do not support 5.1. Yes, you have to render the audio part separately - but the major question is where you wish to use the footage. In another tool like the PD10? The question is also how to muxe the footage if you have an audio and a video stream.


Line alternate has the disadvantage that is halfs the resolution. Maybe it depends on the unit where you will view the results.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Zakowsky* /forum/post/21173821
> 
> 
> Btw to the people with processing power woes with their system and limited resources, don't forget Vegas (and some other programs) can use the GPU in addition to the CPU for rendering, and it does make a difference. So adding a newer or second video card not only gets you a nicer video setup, but a rendering speed increase for not too much money, and you don't have to upgrade your whole computer.



Yes, that is right, and especially for older PCs that could be an option. For a new strong CPU it can happen, that CUDA is weaker then the CPU - especially if the GPU has a low number of CUDA cores.


For my i7 2600K system I have ordered a nvidia GTX 570, and will test that beside my Quadro 2000D (what is nice for 3D but terrible weak for CUDA), but I have no idea yet how the Quadro behaves beside the GTX. Will see how it performs in Vegas Pro.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Is there any disadvantage to using Line Alternate for output? Doesn't seem as smooth as SBS to me...
> 
> 
> Btw to the people with processing power woes with their system and limited resources, don't forget Vegas (and some other programs) can use the GPU in addition to the CPU for rendering, and it does make a difference. So adding a newer or second video card not only gets you a nicer video setup, but a rendering speed increase for not too much money, and you don't have to upgrade your whole computer.



You need a monitor that supports Line alternate. Unless you are in a Broadcast station or pro facility, it is unlikely you are using this type of monitor for 3D. Likely your monitor supports frame packing like from a BluRay player connected by hdmi or SBS / TB half or full. when the source is not from a BluRay player. Could also be Checkerboard as there are a number of monitors out that support checkerboard.


If your computer is older and slower, your options may be limited by a motherboard that does not support faster video cards. I ran into this here with my older quad core Q9300. I HAD to go to a completely newer MB to even support a faster video card.



BTW- this is a bit off topic for the TD10 thread and we already have discussions ongoing in the appropriate threads here on these topics.


----------



## Zakowsky




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/21174414
> 
> 
> Funny, I still have not been able to reproduce the choppy results that Don and now also you have seen. Regardless what I try.
> 
> 
> Maybe that is the reason why I am not able to repro - because I use Pro 11 build 425/426.



Yes, it looks like the new build works great!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/21174414
> 
> 
> Well, the render templates of the MC AVC encoder do not support 5.1. Yes, you have to render the audio part separately - but the major question is where you wish to use the footage. In another tool like the PD10? The question is also how to muxe the footage if you have an audio and a video stream.
> 
> 
> Line alternate has the disadvantage that is halfs the resolution. Maybe it depends on the unit where you will view the results.



For 3D viewing right now I mainly use Nvidia's 3DVision glasses and a 120 Hz monitor...eventually a DVI linked 120 Hz projector (when they finally get 1080p 120 Hz coming in through DVI and not HDMI).


Having your TD10 edited movies in full SBS with Dolby 5.1 makes for a quick render to any other format as your friends and family get 3D tv's etc. And thanks for you and Don pointing out the drop in resolution with Line Alternate. I read some more on it and I see that it is an older format.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/21174414
> 
> 
> Yes, that is right, and especially for older PCs that could be an option. For a new strong CPU it can happen, that CUDA is weaker then the CPU - especially if the GPU has a low number of CUDA cores.
> 
> 
> For my i7 2600K system I have ordered a nvidia GTX 570, and will test that beside my Quadro 2000D (what is nice for 3D but terrible weak for CUDA), but I have no idea yet how the Quadro behaves beside the GTX. Will see how it performs in Vegas Pro.



Congrats on the new GTX 570...you should see an improvement. The 570 has 480 cores compared to the 192 of the Quadro, and most configurations have more memory too. I have 2 GTX 580's and they are great, a little noisy when they are working but not too bad. With the GPU/CPU issue, I also have a i7 system, with 16 cores (dual hyper-threaded quad core Xeons), and if the program is multithreaded properly (and Vegas Pro is) it can still use the GPU's to make things even faster. But as Don mentions, you do need multiple PCIe 2.0 16x slots on the motherboard.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Zakowsky* /forum/post/21177986
> 
> 
> But as Don mentions, you do need multiple PCIe 2.0 16x slots on the motherboard.



Yes, I am aware of this issue - my board supports one 16x speed slot, if you put in a second card you grade it down to two times 8x speed only.


There is a third PCIe 2.0 slot, but that will work at 4x only - but maybe the best solution because then the first one stays at 16x. I have to make some tests to see how I can achieve the best performance. But that is another story, this ith the TD10 thread.


----------



## Prema999

Anyone tested these with the Sony, yet?

http://www.cyclopital3d.com/Sony-Cam...cessories.html 




Looks like they will block the front mics...there are two wholes at the bottom though...

Is there anything that can give us a wider angle with that Filter Mount?


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Prema999* /forum/post/21183701
> 
> 
> Anyone tested these with the Sony, yet?
> 
> http://www.cyclopital3d.com/Sony-Cam...cessories.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like they will block the front mics...there are two wholes at the bottom though...
> 
> Is there anything that can give us a wider angle with that Filter Mount?



I have the JVC version, and a Marumi +3 Achromat macro lens. It works very well. I don't know if a wide adapter would work well with the dual lenses. I suspect you might run into issues with part of the image being cut off. No such issues with macro photography on my JVC. I have access to the full zoom range. I haven't tried a wide angle adapter - though obviously that would be a great tool to be able to use.


----------



## threed123

Just got the camera in hand today. My first impressions after 15 minutes of shooting indoors: I have the Fuji W3, so I'm familiar with what it can do for video. Frankly, there is little comparison, the Sony video looks very professional with minimal judder--I was really surprised. I walked around the house while narrating and the movement was smooth and well balanced. I was also surprised by the low light capability. I had just the light from the windows to work with and still the rooms were well lit. The wide angle view is also nice--wider than I expected. And the auto-white balance--better than any other Sony or other video camera I've used.


After shooting I went to the basement and switched on my new Optoma HD3300 Full 3D projector, hooked up the hdmi to my receiver that also hooks to the projector and watched playback on my 142" screen! Wow!







Images matched what I've seen in 3D TV and movies. This camera is definitely a keeper. The only downside--and I"ve got to get used to this--was the walking around movement made me instantly sea-sick







. I must learn not to walk the camera forward while recording. Side to side movement is okay, but wow, forward movement put me into a tailspin. Also, recording outside in bright sun really crushes the whites--way too much contrast. I'll have to watch out for that as well as others have mentioned.


I must say, it's smaller and lighter than I imagined. Others have said it's like holding a brick, but I found it's not that big and bulky. The lens is closer together than the Fuji W3, so the 3D is not as pronounced. It's as if you are standing further back than you are. It reduces some of the roundness of objects, but unless you are looking for it, the average person wouldn't notice. And the sound, another wow for a camcorder this size. My voice through my receiver sound system sounded professional--not tinny like I expected.


Oh, the fun begins right now


----------



## f13dfx

I may have missed reference to a software 3D depth adjustment in either PD10 or Vegas Pro 10e. Where in each of these programs would one be able to do this?


Right now when playing the raw footage from the TD10 to my Sony Bravia XBR52LX900 via HDMI I always have to adjust the 3D depth to +2.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

An adjustment of the depth can be done with both Vegas and the PD10. While the PD10 does not have other 3D controls, the Vegas plugin offeres a lot of more adjustments.


----------



## f13dfx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/21200579
> 
> 
> An adjustment of the depth can be done with both Vegas and the PD10. While the PD10 does not have other 3D controls, the Vegas plugin offeres a lot of more adjustments.



Pardon my ignorance but can you step me through how I go about making a 3D adjustment of +2 to my TD10 video in PD10.


Thanks in advance!


----------



## Don Landis

If you are shooting with a properly calibrated TD10 and properly importing those clips to Vegas there should be no need to make any deviation to the placement of the video 3D calibrations. The adjustments in the 3D Stereographic effect is for use with a twin 2D camera system that uses the two files in a 3D pairing configuration. There is also a horizontal disparity adjustment that is for use on overlays to position the overlay in Z axis space. For example- say you have a 3D video clip and wish to place a text graphic overlay. You create then text graphic and since this is a simple 2D clip, it will land at the screen plane on the Z axis. Using the 3D Stereographic effect and its horizontal adjustment, you can move the Text position in front of the screen by going negative on the slider or back into the background by going positive on the slider. You want to set the horizontal Z axis location so that you don't have any depth collisions with any 3D object that is in the background video.


Normally the monitor has a 3D adjustment that is set yo favor the owner's depth perception. Pulling it positive on the monitors I've seen spread the 3D more causing a greater 3D effect. This also will increase the likelihood that video with extreme 3D effects will tire you more frequently because your eyes will need to work harder. Putting this setting negative will squeeze the 3D spread flatter more toward the 2D and will be easier on the eyes. When I first got my 3D projector I had it set for greater spread too and when the novelty wore off and I preferred longer viewing times with less fatigue, I put the adjustment back to default of 0.


Finally, repeating many posts, the Sony HDR TD10 3D adjustment simply places your screen along the Z axis. Some may prefer the action in front of the screen more while others prefer this to be behind the screen. If you have a shot where something is popping out too far in front it may not converge so you may wish to push it back a bit. In other cases you may be shooting a distant shot zoomed in and everything is way behind the screen plane so you use this control to bring some of it closer.


Basically, if you don't know what you are doing, it's best to leave these things in auto or default. If you do understand what these controls adjust, you can tweak the video for some outstanding custom look. Most of my public shooting I don't have the time to be tweaking every little manual adjustment so I do mostly auto and let the camera technology do what I paid for. If you shoot documentary or news gathering style you won't have the time to play with all the manual calibrations or the shot will be gone. But if you shoot film style, do a massive setup for a few seconds of video, you will get better image quality because you have the time for great control over what is shot.


----------



## f13dfx

Don:


Thanks for the detailed explanation.


I did leave everything I shot while trying the TD10 on auto mode. As mentioned, to get best results and avoid ghosting on my Sony XBR 52LX900 the setting +2 for 3D depth adjust seemed best to view all video shot with the TD10 whether attached directly to my 3DTV or when I burnt a 3D Bluray via PD10 and played it on my PS3.


All I wanted to see was if there was a simple 3D adjustment in PD10 that I could use when creating a 3D Bluray to play on my PS3 so that I don't have to keep doing a 3D depth adjustment on my Sony 3DTV


----------



## Don Landis

If ghosting is a problem you might have the TD10 not properly calibrated. Run the calibration test again carefully following the instructions in your manual. Make sure you have plenty of room and light. Then set the 3D adjust control to auto and gain your 3D shooting experience with auto first. Second, be careful to avoid the shots that have too much spread in 3D depth with extreme close up objects and far distant background which will cause ghosts in the close up objects especially if they are closer than 4 feet from the camera.


----------



## f13dfx

I did actually run calibration several times.


I took several videos after each calibration all with similar results. Honestly, there is very little ghosting of mid to far objects and it's just the close-in ones that are very apparent.


So unfortunately I'm left with video I can't retake since I've come back from our trip to Europe


----------



## Joseph Clark

I've never used Vegas' built-in tools to adjust the position of the left/right frames. I use Cineform FirstLight (part of their Neo software) with my 3D clips. It gives you the ability to move left/right, up/down and rotate the images to make sure they create a pleasant viewing experience (and to correct edge violations). There's a very helpful "Auto Zoom" function in FirstLight. Checking it means that FirstLight notes the adjustments that you've made and automatically zooms the image in to fill the frame and keep the stereo pairs aligned properly. Don't despair that you won't be able to adjust your European 3D videos. You may lose a little resolution, but if it means the video is easier to watch, it's well worth it. Others may be able to guide you through the process directly in Vegas, but I haven't done it yet.


----------



## f13dfx

Thanks Joseph. I think I'll just live with doing the 3D adjustment on my 3DTV


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f13dfx* /forum/post/21200990
> 
> 
> I did actually run calibration several times.
> 
> 
> I took several videos after each calibration all with similar results. Honestly, there is very little ghosting of mid to far objects and it's just the close-in ones that are very apparent.
> *
> 
> So unfortunately I'm left with video I can't retake since I've come back from our trip to Europe*



OK, this may call for the extra work necessary to get the results you are looking for. You decide if it is worth the effort. I'll give you the tools direction but you have to go into the help file and read and study the step by step process on how to use the tool. You will need to learn to use the keyframing tool inside of Vegas 3D stereographic effect.


Put the whole offending clip in your timeline. Then apply media effect 3D stereographic to the clip and open up the corrections. where you get access to the vertical adjust, zoom, rotation etc.


Position your cursor at the beginning of your clip and open up your keyframing tool ( the clock to the right of each adjustment. ) Now do a horizontal adjust to get the desired screen plane position. Next you can manually adjust each of the corrections or use Sony's Auto adjust and crop. Be sure you turn auto crop in either case as this will prevent your screen edges from showing. Once you have the the best correction possible, step through your clip to a point where the scene changes significantly such as a pan or zoom and place the next keyframe and repeat the correction process. Continue this until you have the keyframes all set for the clip in your timeline. Yes this is tedious work and is very time consuming. But that is the price you pay for not spending sufficient time prior to your trip learning the camera and it's limitations. ( Please excuse me for being blunt, but you need to know so you don't repeat the mistakes in the future. ) Understand that doing all this work is a timeline editing process and until you render the output, these corrections you made are not permanent on the clip. Your clip is still in it's original form. So if you go to the trouble of making all these key frames do not remove your clip from the timeline. Instead, you must save the timeline as a veg file and then you can maintain all the settings and even pull them for the clips on the timeline with corrections into your real story timeline later using the paste insert or copy event effects and paste them to the same clip in your story timeline. You can open both instances of Vegas on your desktop together to aid in this copy paste insert process.

If I were doing this project I would stick all the clips on a timeline that needed correction and then saved that as a _projectname-clipcorrections.veg
_

It is important to understand why you'll need to use the keyframing inside the corrections. Most people do not shoot a scene with a static shot. In this case only one correction would be required but if you moved the camera or the scene changed, the corrections you made at the first frame of the scene will not be valid when the scene changes. Also, inside each keyframe you have the option to select the bezier curves for easing to and from each correction point so there is no jump to the adjustments.


I have only used this process for real with my twin camera system but it can be applied to an MVC clip from the TD10 as well, without needing to convert the MVC clip to a left and right file using the pairing process. That is totally unnecessary in VegasPro v11 This did not work properly in Vegas 10e.



One more comment about shooting- When you do a lot of shooting with your camera you will become familiar with it's limitations and anticipate how to frame a subject. so that the camera can capture the image without defects such as focus, excess noise due to low light level etc. In 3D there are additional limits that you now understand enter the shooting process. For 3D, you have to recognize that interaxial distance between the lenses affects the minimum negative parallax of the scene. In other words, you can shoot closer but you need to make the minimum IA distance smaller. For a fixed IA this is not possible. What I do for an extreme close up shot that has a close foreground object that is key to the shot, I break out my 3D Bloggie and capture it. If the foreground object is not key, such as a tree branch jutting into the side of the frame and the key focus is a person 12 ft away, I frame out the branch from the tree because I know it will ruin the 3D of the scene. This is called knowing your camera by the pros.


Finally, in 3D these ghosts are often related to the screen for viewing. The best adjustments you can achieve for corrections is to make the adjustments while viewing the final monitor. I know for me this is not possible so I have tio guess and sometimes I have to make 3-4 runs before I get the big screen perfect. The bigger the screen the more critical these up close ghosts get.


----------



## itou31

Hello Don,

Thanks for these advices.

I've shoot some videos this WE of my kids, and have played with zoom. Ouch, the zoom goes too quick. What a pleasure to view to the 3D TV just after shooting, but some video should be adjusted in vegas. I have some ghosting too, but for object that are far. I can reduce the ghosting on my samsung PS63C7700 by applying -5 on 3d adjust.

As you said, ghosting depends on the TV, as viewing on my LG 32LW4500 monitor, it's just fine.

I just received the micro zoom ECM-HGZ1. It's seems very fragile !

I had to get used with this zoom in 3D, it's too fast.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> I just received the micro zoom ECM-HGZ1. It's seems very fragile !
> 
> I had to get used with this zoom in 3D, it's too fast.



I did some testing on two different camcorders with this mic and it seems that the zoom control does not gradually blend the wider stereo mics in the camcorder with wide angle to the shotgun for full telephoto lens but rather at some point switches to it. Consequently there is an abrupt sound quality switch in any slow zoom in or out. So, when using this mic I rarely record zooming in or pulling wide as the sound quality switch becomes annoying. Adding a background music bed does mask the switch point somewhat.


----------



## Don Landis

Some of you may have a need to remote control and monitor the HDR TD10. One simple application is where you may want to lift the TD10 above the heads in a crowd of people to video something like a parade. I tested this using a monopod last summer and it worked but I had no control and no way to see what I was shooting without severe neck fatigue.


Sony makes a small remote control that can power on and off, zoom at two speeds, record / pause recording and snap a photo while recording. But we still need to be able to monitor what the camcorder is shooting. Last summer I could find no consumer grade cam monitor that worked in HD resolution and had HDMI input. Unfortunately, Sony disabled the composite video out when connecting a LANC remote control. But the hdmi is still active.

Recently Sony has offered a camera monitor with nice features and hdmi input. But it is rather expensive. If you have the budget I would always recommend Sony first.

We also have a choice. A new company just released a monitor in two sizes 5" and 7" ( I recommend the smaller, for less than half the cost of the Sony, Lilliput offers a nice option. It comes with a clip on sun shade ( I will probably use the Hoodman since it folds flat and easy to carry) and has three 1/4-20 standard mountings. Has two adapters for different brand LiIon batteries. I'll have to fabricate a clamp so it can attach to my monopod.


http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...52921666295823 

http://www.lilliputuk.com/monitors/hdmi/569gl/ 

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sony-RMAV2...00000003142050


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f13dfx* /forum/post/21200639
> 
> 
> Pardon my ignorance but can you step me through how I go about making a 3D adjustment of +2 to my TD10 video in PD10.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Sorry I have not seen that, but I think Don has explained that in a great way. I agree with his comments - and my experience is also that you may decide to shoot with the convergence in the automatic mode, since you may not have the time to adjust convergence in the TD10, especially not if you film live events.


The adjustment with the 3D plugin in Vegas is great but work intensive. You may be faster if you work both with the external and the internal preview - I tend to switch the internal preview to a difference picture between the two steams. Then you see very fast where the two videos converge really, by adjustment the horizontal shift. That is also a way that is used for broadcast productions like Hobbit, where they use such a difference picture to adjust convergence during shooting in a very fast way.


I tend to avoid auto crop, but then I have to be sure that I make the croping manually - also with keyframing in the 3D plugin of Vegas.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21259935
> 
> 
> Recently Sony has offered a camera monitor with nice features and hdmi input. But it is rather expensive. If you have the budget I would always recommend Sony first.
> 
> We also have a choice. A new company just released a monitor in two sizes 5" and 7" ( I recommend the smaller, for less than half the cost of the Sony, Lilliput offers a nice option. It comes with a clip on sun shade ( I will probably use the Hoodman since it folds flat and easy to carry) and has three 1/4-20 standard mountings. Has two adapters for different brand LiIon batteries. I'll have to fabricate a clamp so it can attach to my monopod.
> 
> 
> http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...52921666295823
> 
> http://www.lilliputuk.com/monitors/hdmi/569gl/
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sony-RMAV2...00000003142050



The only point what I do not like is that those monitors are 2D only. I look for something for 3D, even if I think that this will be more expensive for sure.


----------



## Don Landis

Give it time. Last summer we didn't even have 2D monitors of this size and cost with hdmi and 1080 x 1920 res. For now, I rely on my experience that the TD10 will do fine with the 3D auto as long as I have some way to frame the shot. I'm 99.9% where I want to be with this rig for shooting in a crowd. I'll get some pictures later of what the rig looks like. The tests I did an hour ago worked great. I need to get outside now and see how the bright sunlight affects my control.


BTW- The TD 10 has a menu selection where you can set the camera to full remote control and not have to open the LCD screen to turn it on and off. The wired remote has all the led lights to let you know things are working.



But if you have lots of money burning a hole in your pocket you can get one now from Marshall--








http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/12/m...nitor-for-pro/


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Well, 8000 $ is really cheap....


----------



## lunaluagua

I'm somewhat confused about this camera and was wondering if anyone could answer a question for me. I've read that this camera records 3D in full 1080 resolution for each eye at 60i....but how is that possible for us to view it in that resolution (aside from specialized computer monitors)? I heard a while back that the majority of 3dtvs and projectors previously sold can only display 3D in [email protected] and [email protected] because the bandwidth of their internal chipsets are limited to such (even though the 1080p60 3D protocol is in the hdmi 1.4 spec), does this camera when hooked up to a 3dtv output in full 1080 at such high framerate? or is it downscaled internally in the camera to 720p before the tv even reaches it (thus displaying the image but leaving the true stereo 1080 file intact)? or do people's tvs now do true 1080p @ 60fps per eye?


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lunaluagua* /forum/post/21263297
> 
> 
> I'm somewhat confused about this camera and was wondering if anyone could answer a question for me. I've read that this camera records 3D in full 1080 resolution for each eye at 60i....but how is that possible for us to view it in that resolution (aside from specialized computer monitors)? I heard a while back that the majority of 3dtvs and projectors previously sold can only display 3D in [email protected] and [email protected] because the bandwidth of their internal chipsets are limited to such (even though the 1080p60 3D protocol is in the hdmi 1.4 spec), does this camera when hooked up to a 3dtv output in full 1080 at such high framerate? or is it downscaled internally in the camera to 720p before the tv even reaches it (thus displaying the image but leaving the true stereo 1080 file intact)? or do people's tvs now do true 1080p @ 60fps per eye?



When recording in 3D mode, the TD10 has only one mode of recording which is 1080i60 per eye into a file that has MVC coding.


In playback mode from HDMI, the TD10 has selections for frame packing and SBS mode, plus auto. The best information I have is that the frame packing is 1080i60-3D. Few monitors work with that mode. The SBS output mode has the highest compatibility, though I'm not certain what the the full range of output resolutions and frame rates modes are for SBS from the TD10.


3D Bluray disks are either 1080p24 or 720p60. So the TD10 output files have to be converted to one of these before burning to a bluray disk, in order to have a compatible 3D media that works in all 3D bluray players. Conversion can be done by software called Sony Vegas version 10 and 11, and Cyberlink Power Director version 10.


The 1080i60-3D recordings made by the TD10 actually correspond to a spec called AVCHD 2.0. Sony supplies a free program called PMB (version 5.8) that will burn the 1080i60-3D to a bluray disk media. Since PMB records the native 1080i60-3D recording, no conversion is needed for this. So far the only bluray players that can play these AVCHD 2.0 disks are Sony models 480 580 and 780.


For more reading see these threads:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1369627 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post20921791 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1364668


----------



## Don Landis

Here are the pictures of the Remote controls for the TD10 on a monopod. Had trouble uploading yesterday.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Richard,


I don't know about the Sony, but my JVC TD1 outputs 1080i/60 frame packing via HDMI, which none of my three 3D displays has any trouble playing. When they showed it at CES , JVC tested it with lots of 3D TVs and it played on all of them. My JVC RS40 projector actually says "60i FP" when it gets the signal. My Samsungs don't say that, but they have no problem playing the video. Although I've never seen it listed as a supported format for these first gen TVs, apparently it is. I enjoy watching from the camcorder because the motion is silky smooth and 3D TVs scale the 1080i/60 up to 1080p/60 per eye. That looks incredible. When I convert to 1080p/24, the conversion artifacts really hurt the image, especially shots with much lateral motion. That's one reason I'm looking forward to AVCHD 2.0 so much.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21264288
> 
> 
> Here are the pictures of the Remote controls for the TD10 on a monopod. Had trouble uploading yesterday.



That are nice pictures Don - you in action. Hmm, and the Monopod and the Lilliput looks nice too.


There is no issue to playback footage from both the JVC TD1 but also not from the Sony TD10. It works fine with every 3D HDTVs, also for the PAL version. The answer why it is possible to view that is that the signal is 1080 50i/60i (interlaced), but not 50p/60p - what would be too much. For 1080 24p it is fine too - but that is the end of what seems to be possible at the moment, even with hdmi 1.4.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/21264353
> 
> 
> Richard,
> 
> 
> I don't know about the Sony, but my JVC TD1 outputs 1080i/60 frame packing via HDMI, which none of my three 3D displays has any trouble playing. When they showed it at CES , JVC tested it with lots of 3D TVs and it played on all of them. My JVC RS40 projector actually says "60i FP" when it gets the signal. My Samsungs don't say that, but they have no problem playing the video. Although I've never seen it listed as a supported format for these first gen TVs, apparently it is. I enjoy watching from the camcorder because the motion is silky smooth and 3D TVs scale the 1080i/60 up to 1080p/60 per eye. That looks incredible. When I convert to 1080p/24, the conversion artifacts really hurt the image, especially shots with much lateral motion. That's one reason I'm looking forward to AVCHD 2.0 so much.



I'm sure it depends on the monitor, Joe. My Sony says the same thing for the TD10; i.e. 1080 60i Frame Packing. I also get some 1080 60p on the Sony when playing some of my commercial movie BD in the video shorts and extras from my PS3 or OPPO but the main features always switch to 1080 24p.


Now on my Vizio, the listing is problematic and I have to select SBS for it to play properly. Funny that the TD10 can't even be in auto. Haven't connected in quite awhile but that was the case last I checked.


For the Lilliput cam monitor I just leave the TD10m in auto and the 3D mode just displays 2D as that monitor is not 3D, but the input data shows it to be 1080i. If I put the TD10 in 1080 24p mode the Lilliput data shows 1080 24p.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21264288
> 
> 
> Here are the pictures of the Remote controls for the TD10 on a monopod. Had trouble uploading yesterday.



This monopod beats holding my arm up in the air with head tilted back for a 15 minutes straight during a Disney fireworks show. During parades, arm height adds to the 3d perspective of the heads of the crowd in front of me.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/21264353
> 
> 
> Richard,
> 
> 
> I don't know about the Sony, but my JVC TD1 outputs 1080i/60 frame packing via HDMI, which none of my three 3D displays has any trouble playing. When they showed it at CES , JVC tested it with lots of 3D TVs and it played on all of them. My JVC RS40 projector actually says "60i FP" when it gets the signal. My Samsungs don't say that, but they have no problem playing the video. Although I've never seen it listed as a supported format for these first gen TVs, apparently it is. I enjoy watching from the camcorder because the motion is silky smooth and 3D TVs scale the 1080i/60 up to 1080p/60 per eye. That looks incredible. When I convert to 1080p/24, the conversion artifacts really hurt the image, especially shots with much lateral motion. That's one reason I'm looking forward to AVCHD 2.0 so much.



Joe, I recall you mentioned that you were getting a Sony 580 at Best Buy.


The Sony PMB software installer wants a Sony TD10 camcorder and a bluray drive connected to the PC in order to install the PMB 5.8 that allows burning the AVCHD 2.0 disks.


Do you have a way to make AVCHD 2.0 disk from your JVC 3D camcorder files? If not, perhaps you can get me a raw clip that I will try to use with PMB 5.8 to make an AVCHD 2.0 disk of that content.


I also recall there was a method to bring those JVC files into Sony Vegas Pro, and wonder it that would be needed with PMB to make AVCHD 2.0 disks for playing on the 580.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Interesting - I see no way how TD1 files could be used within the PMB 5.8.


----------



## Joseph Clark

I can use PowerDirector 10 to convert the JVC's mp4 files into 3D m2ts files. Can those files be burned to AVCHD 2.0 format by the Sony software, or does it only work with the raw MTS files from the TD10 when it's connected directly to the computer?


The new version of the JVC Everio Mediabrowser software is supposed to provide some AVCHD 2.0 compatibility, and it should be out before the end of the year. Details are still sketchy, though.


Although I have little hope that it will work, I intend to try some 3D m2ts files on a USB flash drive plugged into the 580 today or tomorrow. I just got it hooked up in my system, and updated, a little while ago.


----------



## Joseph Clark

I tried playing 3 3D files from a flash drive plugged into the Sony 580's front USB port - a 3D MTS file recorded with a Panasonic Z10000, a 60i 3D m2ts file created in PD10 from Fuji W3 files and a 60i 3D m2ts file created in PD10 from JVC TD1 files. The Sony recognized all of them and played them without a hiccup in 2D, but not in 3D. That's what I expected. I suspect I won't be able to get playback of 60i 3D until it gets wrapped in an AVCHD 2.0 file/folder structure. For years, I've been able to get the PS3 to play back AVCHD recordings from my Canon camcorder's SDHC card, once it was plugged into a PS3 USB port with a USB to flash adapter.


Richard,


I think the problem is that no software out there right now except for Sony PMB can create the necessary AVCHD 2.0 file/folder structure, at least until the JVC software is released. If I'm wrong, I'd sure like to know about it. Before too long, I expect PD10 also will get an update to be able to create such disc structures. I haven't heard that, but given Cyberlink's track record in adding such features, it seems very likely to me.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/21266482
> 
> 
> I tried playing 3 3D files from a flash drive plugged into the Sony 580's front USB port - a 3D MTS file recorded with a Panasonic Z10000, a 60i 3D m2ts file created in PD10 from Fuji W3 files and a 60i 3D m2ts file created in PD10 from JVC TD1 files. The Sony recognized all of them and played them without a hiccup in 2D, but not in 3D. That's what I expected. I suspect I won't be able to get playback of 60i 3D until it gets wrapped in an AVCHD 2.0 file/folder structure. For years, I've been able to get the PS3 to play back AVCHD recordings from my Canon camcorder's SDHC card, once it was plugged into a PS3 USB port with a USB to flash adapter.
> 
> 
> Richard,
> 
> 
> I think the problem is that no software out there right now except for Sony PMB can create the necessary AVCHD 2.0 file/folder structure, at least until the JVC software is released. If I'm wrong, I'd sure like to know about it. Before too long, I expect PD10 also will get an update to be able to create such disc structures. I haven't heard that, but given Cyberlink's track record in adding such features, it seems very likely to me.



The only content that the 580 will play in 3D from its USB port is if a Sony TD10 camcorder is directly connected there, and the files from within TD10 are played. This seems to be a deliberate design by Sony to restrict sources that play in 3D.


At the link below you can get an image of an AVCHD 2.0 disk I burned with PMB 5.8 from Sony TD10 content. The file there is 99mb. When uncompressed, it expands from 99MB to 23GB. After decompressing (with winrar), the file can be renamed to .iso, since it is an image of a bluray disk. It can be burned to a bluray with imgburn, or other burning software. I didn't find a way to access the files within this image with tools I usually use for this.

http://siliconturbines.com/y11_06-05_5-14-45PM.rar 


Even though the content is only 100mb, the disk imaging software made a 23GB file when imaging the disk written by PMB. The disk is mostly unused space which would have been taken up if I had put more content on the disk. I made the content small so the download would be short.


This bluray disk image has a short AVC 2.0 3D file inside. Even though the content can be burned to a bluray disk, the structure is different from the bluray standard. It is an AVCHD 2.0 files disk. It plays the 1080i60-3D from the TD10 without any re-encoding, only on the Sony 480 580 or 780 bluray players so it is exactly the highest quality possible from the TD10. It only plays on those players now, but other players may incorporate this ability in the near future.


About PD10 - I do not think that outputs 1080i60 MVC 3D, Does it?


I offer that if you get a me file from the JVC camcorder, I will try and write an AVCHD 2.0 disk for you with PMB. If PMB works, I'll put an image file of that in a place you can download, for you to test your 580 with your own content prior to JVC shipping their software.


Alternately, if someone takes the image apart from the link above, it might be possible to plug different content into the image using the image as framework for doing so.

.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Thanks, Richard. Here's a file I converted in PD10, from the JVC's mp4 3D 60i format to a 3D 60i m2ts format that plays nice with Sony Vegas. The bit rate is less than the original (25mbps vs 34mbps), but the quality is still very good, and because it's 60i the motion is just like the original - i.e. glassy smooth. PD10 can export any JVC clips in m2ts format. It's a simple alternative to Peter Wimmer's MVCtoAVI utility, and files converted this way have the advantage of being even smaller than the original JVC files.


The Cineform or Matrox transcode alternatives (from my JVC original files) are better for projects in which image quality is paramount, but those files are HUGE and eat up massive amounts of hard drive space. I'm sure you wouldn't be able to do anything with my original JVC mp4 files in PMB. This is the only practical way to test the possibilities.


I'm going to download your iso and burn it to disc, to test on my Sony 580. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## Joseph Clark

I downloaded the file and burned it but got an error message that said the burn failed. The disc played anyway in the Sony 580. Don't know what that was about. I'll see if there's a newer version of ImgBurn. At any rate, it worked. Good to know that we're this far along with AVCHD 2.0. If you have any more iso's like this, maybe longer, I'd appreciate a link.







Let me know if you have any success with PMB burning the m2ts file I posted.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/21267172
> 
> 
> I downloaded the file and burned it but got an error message that said the burn failed. The disc played anyway in the Sony 580. Don't know what that was about. I'll see if there's a newer version of ImgBurn. At any rate, it worked. Good to know that we're this far along with AVCHD 2.0. If you have any more iso's like this, maybe longer, I'd appreciate a link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know if you have any success with PMB burning the m2ts file I posted.



FYI - I didn't try to burn a disk with that image I provided. The same exact image read by two different programs. Glad that test worked.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/21266959
> 
> 
> Thanks, Richard. Here's a file I converted in PD10, from the JVC's mp4 3D 60i format to a 3D 60i m2ts format that plays nice with Sony Vegas. The bit rate is less than the original (25mbps vs 34mbps), but the quality is still very good, and because it's 60i the motion is just like the original - i.e. glassy smooth. PD10 can export any JVC clips in m2ts format. It's a simple alternative to Peter Wimmer's MVCtoAVI utility, and files converted this way have the advantage of being even smaller than the original JVC files.
> 
> 
> The Cineform or Matrox transcode alternatives (from my JVC original files) are better for projects in which image quality is paramount, but those files are HUGE and eat up massive amounts of hard drive space. I'm sure you wouldn't be able to do anything with my original JVC mp4 files in PMB. This is the only practical way to test the possibilities.
> 
> 
> I'm going to download your iso and burn it to disc, to test on my Sony 580. Thanks for posting it.



I got the file and loaded it into PMB ok. When I tried to make the bluray, just at the step where it is supposed to start burning, I got an error message and an error code. Tried 2 different target disks. It did not write anything to the disk, and likely determined it didn't want to write it since the PD10 output was too different from what Sony wanted.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/21267798
> 
> 
> I got the file and loaded it into PMB ok. When I tried to make the bluray, just at the step where it is supposed to start burning, I got an error message and an error code. Tried 2 different target disks. It did not write anything to the disk, and likely determined it didn't want to write it since the PD10 output was too different from what Sony wanted.



Next, I tried to combine the clip I download from you of Shaw's with that other clip from my TD10. PMB gave me an error message saying that I could not combine clips with different frame rates. Maybe this will help us find a work around. Maybe different settings are needed for the PD10 output.


----------



## lunaluagua

Much thanks to Richard Adams for the info, those are some really interesting developments. Now that I think about it it does seems wholly possible to firmware update current gen 3d specs to handle 1080 3d @ 60i since roughly the same amount of information is being sent over hdmi for 1080 60p....much like what they did with the ps3 for it's initial handling of 3d.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/21267842
> 
> 
> Next, I tried to combine the clip I download from you of Shaw's with that other clip from my TD10. PMB gave me an error message saying that I could not combine clips with different frame rates. Maybe this will help us find a work around. Maybe different settings are needed for the PD10 output.



That seems likely. I'll try it.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/21270110
> 
> 
> That seems likely. I'll try it.



I compared the Sony TD10 file to the file I got from Joe and found that the Video frame rate same at 29.97. Don't know which of these (or something else) is at fault to make PMB barf on writing an AVCHD 2.0 bluray, or doing a "combine." Since the video frame rate wasn't different, which PMB claimed, I checked what else could be different.


I think that any of these could negatively affect what PMB was written to handle.


TS Mux rate

28.597 Sony TD10

72.526 Joe JVC convert by PD10


Header bit rate

22.000 Sony

50.000 Joe


VBV Buffer

2928KB Sony

0952KB Joe


Bit Rate

25.291Mbps Sony

33.256Mbps Joe


Audio Channels

5.1 Sony

2.0 Joe


Audio Bit rate

448kbps Sony

256kbps Joe


----------



## Joseph Clark

Sounds like PMB "knew" this file wasn't from a Sony TD10. I thought PD10 had set the bitrate to 25mbps, but that doesn't appear to be the case. No wonder it looks so similar to the original. Oh, well, we're inching closer. Guess I'll have to wait for the JVC software. It shouldn't be much longer. Of course, there's no guarantee it'll like the file format either.


----------



## bertoy

Where can I find a good deal on this camcorder? Please share.


----------



## daveperso

Hi everyone, apologies if I am not posting in the right place. I have been an avid reader of this thread from the beginning and am a proud owner of the HDR-TD10E, Vegas Pro 11, Vegas Platinum and Cyberlink PowerDirector 10 Ultra. I am in Europe (France) so I am always particularly interested to hear Wolfgang speak about recommended settings for burning to blu ray etc. However my problem is more fundamental. PMB has stopped working on me. It used to work FINE before. I am now unable to burn either 2D or 3D. The process begins and then about 13% in, I get the message "cannot write to the disc because an error occurred". I can burn to the same blu ray disc in the other programs. The PMB (what I can find) suggests that this might be a codec error. I uninstalled KLite Codec pack (which I had recently installed), rebooted but still no good. PowerDirector is a recent acquisition. Could this be responsible for the error? I am trying to figure out what change to my configuration could have caused PMB to stop working. Of course I would like to have both programs installed and functioning. I must add that I updated PMP to the latest version 5.0.02.10270 to see if that would do the trick but it didn't. I reinitialized PMP but still no good. Has anyone else had a similar problem with PMB? Thanks in advance


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Well, I have not seen issues with the pmb up to now, and I have installed also the PD10. Frankly spoken, I would assume that you have killed your system with codec packages or other things. Do you have an earlier image from your system? It is always nice to have such images, for example generated with tools like trueimage. If you do not have an image, I would expect that the solution may be a new setup of your system. That is work, but should work out really. And if you do so, invest the money in such an image tool and create some images at different installations phases - so one for windows and the driver only (so a clean base system). A secoid one after installation of the major applications, that you trust really (your editiors or whatever you have). And after you have such a clean installation and checked that it seems to work fine, then you can start to play with things like codec packages. If something goes wrong, you always can go back to a clean system within 20 minutes or so.


For the render settings: since you are in PAL-country, for TD10 you have 2 possibilities:

- either you generate a 3D Blu Ray from the timeline with the Sony AVC/MVC encoder to 720 50p. Settings for that can be found here (sorry, it is in German, but the wordings for Vegas are at least in english):
http://www.videotreffpunkt.com/threa...threadid=13106 


- the othre way is more tricky to - to render to 1080 50p, then stretch the timeline by ~4% and render to 1080 24p. This way has been published in some detail in the last German magazin Videoaktiv digital, but sorry there is no englisch publication of that and it is not available for free.

http://www.videoaktiv.de/20111104656...die-Augen.html 


You could also try to render your project to 1080 24p in a direct way, but only with Vegas Pro 11 in build 425/426. And even then the outcome will not be completely free of errors.


----------



## f13dfx

I have since returned the TD10 that I had bought to try out in our trip to Europe.


I still have my 750gb WD My Passport external USB hard drive that has all the 3D video archived via the TD10. I do know that the current PMB 5.8 software in conjunction with the TD10 looks (I don't know for sure, that's why I'm asking







) like the only way of burning a 3D bluray in the highest quality resolution (like the original source in AVCHD 2.0 spec). I don't want any menus/transitions, etc. I do want chapter markers if that's possible.


The reason I'm asking is that right now locally, I can purchase the Sony S580 3D Bluray player for $100 (taxes incl.) or for FREE with my Visa Avion points







so that would enable me to play 3D blurays burned in the new AVCHD 2.0 spec. I am currently playing any 3D material with my PS3.


Any advice/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## daveperso

Thanks Wolfgang. Yikes. I wasn't expecting such a radical solution. I don't feel up to wiping clean by computer just yet. Since I did very little (except it seems install some codecs needed for another program), I am really surprised that this has completed disabled PMP for me. I uninstalled it, reinstalled again, installed the new version with the BD software too and still the same error. Sony Vegas works fine.


For the moment I don't have one of the Sony BD players that will read AVCHD 2.0 so I think I am just going to make do with the less than perfect rendering of Vegas or PD10 and keep the original files on hard disk. Maybe this same software will also be able to burn the HDR-TD10 files into AVCHD 2.0 without rendering in the same manner as PMP in the future. I am still able to import media into PMP.


In answer to fd13fdx, I was going to buy a Sony player myself until PMP stopped working on me and did a fair amount of reseach. By European standards, $100 is an excellent price (you would need to pay practically double that over here). It is, as far as I know, only one of three players that will play the AVCHD 2.0 files. The only difference between the s480 and the s580 is the wireless feature though frankly, I'd probably prefer to go for the Ethernet cable. The s780 is also Skype compatible (though you need to buy the camera which over here is about €100) and the remote control is backlit. The guy at the Sony Store in Paris told me that the player itself was the same as the other two models though, to be honest, I am not sure if he knew what he was talking about.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Even if I have to state that I cannot be sure if the codec package is the reason for your problems with the pmb, I know that a lot of people have killed their system with such codec packages. So, I would say it is a possible reason.


Well, rendering is not perfect since the Blu Ray consortia forces us to render 1080 50i to 720 50p. If they would have specified 1080 50i/60i for 3D BD too, what should have been possible, we would not have that issue.


If a software learns to create AVCHD 2.0 file structures for 3D BD, then maybe the PD10. For Vegas I would not think so, since that is no professional structure, even if the quality is slightly better.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f13dfx* /forum/post/21318598
> 
> 
> I have since returned the TD10 that I had bought to try out in our trip to Europe.
> 
> 
> I still have my 750gb WD My Passport external USB hard drive that has all the 3D video archived via the TD10. I do know that the current PMB 5.8 software in conjunction with the TD10 looks (I don't know for sure, that's why I'm asking
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) like the only way of burning a 3D bluray in the highest quality resolution (like the original source in AVCHD 2.0 spec). I don't want any menus/transitions, etc. I do want chapter markers if that's possible.
> 
> 
> The reason I'm asking is that right now locally, I can purchase the Sony S580 3D Bluray player for $100 (taxes incl.) or for FREE with my Visa Avion points
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so that would enable me to play 3D blurays burned in the new AVCHD 2.0 spec. I am currently playing any 3D material with my PS3.
> 
> 
> Any advice/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!



If you installed the PMB 5.8 before returning the TD10, you can still use the bluray burning feature of that, even if the TD10 is no longer present.


There does not seem to be any other burning tools to author new AVCHD 2.0 3D bluray at this time, though image burner software can make duplicates of bluray AVCHD disks previously burned with PMB 5.8.


Are you in a situation where the AVCHD 2.0 3D burning features of PMB 5.8 are no longer accessible?


To play back the 1080i60 files, so far only the Sony 480 580 and 780 players do this from burned media, or a software player can be used with the 1080i60-3D files.


----------



## Prema999












http://www.bluewaterphotostore.com/R...ny-3D-HDR-TD10 


$$$







$$$







$$$







$$$


----------



## emporer

Anyone else keep having the 3d auto lens adjust thing come up alot more now than when first used? Its happening quite a bit now for me and to be honest its a pain to have the right environment to run it and have it perfectly steady.


----------



## bravia3D

I am curious how well does the TD10 function in the dark or shooting fireworks? Does it look good? I ask because I may buy the DEV 5 which is like the TD10 but it has 2 CMOS chips.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bravia3D* /forum/post/21343377
> 
> 
> I am curious how well does the TD10 function in the dark or shooting fireworks? Does it look good? I ask because I may buy the DEV 5 which is like the TD10 but it has 2 CMOS chips.


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT2LktPvP4g 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtv2lXdB2Aw 



I hope to do some more soon using twin TD10's in 2D mode paired for 3D using IA of 9"


----------



## bravia3D

Very nice Don, how did they look on your 3D TV? Also how does it compare to the black levels of the JVC?


----------



## Don Landis

I don't have a JVC so I don't know how the blacks do. I would imagine the JVC has a bit of red tint in the blacks because JVC is known for its red push while Sony is known for a cooler less saturated color. Of course this can be adjusted in post as long as the noise level is not too obvious and I think both are very good for noise. There is a little secret to shooting good black level, in general. If your overall scene is low light the blacks on a consumer camcorder will often compensate to an auto gain gray. If you shoot with some bright light in the shot and use manual gain plus adjust your iris to just properly expose the whites, the blacks will get pitch black.


----------



## bravia3D

Cool, thanks for the info Don


----------



## markr041

This 3D video demonstrates the night-time performance of the TD10. Excellent blacks. Nighttime shots in mnaual mode, for the reasons Don gives.


----------



## Andrew_Woods

Hi All,

I co-produce the 3D Theatre session at the annual Stereoscopic Displays and Applications conference: http://www.stereoscopic.org/3dcinema 

Does anyone have a tightly-edited well-produced 3D piece (up to 3mins long) filmed with the HDR-TD10 that they'd be willing to allow us to screen at the conference (23-25 January 2012)?

If so, please send me a PM and I'll provide you with more details.

Best Regards,

Andrew Woods.


----------



## natiahs

I remember reading somewhere on here that the XLR handle from the NX70U or NX3D1 would work on this camera. Does anyone know the part number of the handle?


Thanks,


CT


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *natiahs* /forum/post/21369067
> 
> 
> I remember reading somewhere on here that the XLR handle from the NX70U or NX3D1 would work on this camera. Does anyone know the part number of the handle?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> CT



I already tried this and it does not. Well, I suppose you could go in and hack up the connection interface to make it work. The case of the NX3D1 is different from the TD10 and the TD10 has no mountings for the handle. It is unknown whether the hot shoe of the TD10 electronics will support the xlr handle.


----------



## Don Landis

My Magic Kingdom Fireworks 3D Video shot with the twin TD-10 rig using 9" IA is up at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSt_SgzBVw0 



The two TD-10's were set in full IA mode but controlled using the Lanc Shepherd device. The lens was set to full wide angle.


In case you want to try this--

Getting an ideal shoot location with full front view was not easy. It was the most difficult part of the project as the crowds were packed in tight shoulder to shoulder. I scouted out a dozen locations throughout the day but settled in on this one and the only issue I had with it was the light pole located about half way to the castle. It pops out in the foreground of the 3D due to using such a wide IA on the cameras. The 9" IA was selected based on a main subject stage of 1.5 miles wide and .75 miles to the front of the stage ( fireworks ).


The TD-10 cameras were both in 2D mode 1080 24p x 1920 ( FX quality ). I imported the clips using PMB and edited in Vegas Pro using properties set for 1080 23.976fps.


I used an external 5.1 mic on one camera and the internal mic 5.1 on the second camera but after syncing the two clips I deleted the audio from the camera with the external 5.1 mic based on the fact that in my edit suite that mic did not have the best LFE quality. I used no filters for this shoot so there was nothing blocking the sound direction.


The YouTube rendering looks best using SBS on a 3D monitor set to 1080p in YT.


----------



## natiahs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21372715
> 
> 
> I already tried this and it does not. Well, I suppose you could go in and hack up the connection interface to make it work. The case of the NX3D1 is different from the TD10 and the TD10 has no mountings for the handle. It is unknown whether the hot shoe of the TD10 electronics will support the xlr handle.



Thanks, Don. Really appreciate the heads up.


CT


----------



## Randy Walters

This may be old news for many of you, but in case it isn't... I received this email from Laura Brown of GoPro.


*******

We *are* actually the Neo3D folk, so you're in luck! CineForm was acquired by GoPro this year, and we're in the process of rebranding our products from 'Neo' to 'GoPro CineForm Studio' lineup. The product that will replace Neo3D is GoPro CineForm Studio Professional.


More good news. Your Sony TD10 source is now supported!


Are you 100% Mac, or do you use Windows as well? If you want to try out the Windows software, use the links I sent before. If you're only Mac, please let me know that and I'll make a note on my list here to add you to the Mac beta list.

*******


And here's the original email, with links for Windows betas -


*******


Dear GoPro/CineForm User,


Thank you for you interest in the Premium and/or Professional version of GoPro CineForm Studio for Windows. Good news: Our first round of betas are now available for download!


As these products are so close to public release, our beta time will be limited. Please report any issues or feedback promptly so that we can address any bugs asap. You may report any technical issues directly to me ([email protected]).


You will be running this beta software in trial mode. We suggest a complete clean install, so please remove any previous versions of CineForm or GoPro/CineForm software before you install the new software.


We appreciate your time and effort in helping us test these awesome new products. Enjoy!


If you currently use Neo (Windows), download GoPro CineForm Studio Premium here: http://software.gopro.com/PC/GoProCi...m-1.1.1.95.zip 


If you currently use Neo 3D (Windows), download GoPro CineForm Studio Professional here: http://software.gopro.com/PC/GoProCi...o-1.1.1.95.zip 


**Note to Neo 3D users: Independent eye correction is not yet enabled, so we've included a current version of FirstLight so that you do not lose any of your current features/functionality. This feature will be enabled in the Studio before public release.


*******


As I'm a Mac user, I'm very excited and eager to get my hands on the beta. I'm hoping some of you Windows mavens will check out the Windows beta, and let us know what you think! Thanks, and happy new year -


Randy


----------



## cakefoo

I'm trying to psyche myself up to purchase this or the JVC.


My main concern at the moment is outdoor contrast and saturation being blown out in every single outdoor shot I've seen on Youtube.


Does anyone feel like shooting a test video or know of an existing video that employs the exposure adjustment knob?


----------



## Don Landis

When shooting manual, there may always be times that an event may blow out the shot while shooting. I use auto most of the time so these things can be auto compensated for. This works 99% of the time. But for really good Professional looking work, adding filters is the way to achieve EFP results. I even have a gradient neutral density filter set for toning down the sky and prevent the terrain from going too dark. These filters aren't cheap in 77mm but you can find sales all the time. I rarely pay more than $12 for them.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Yeah, it's pretty easy to blow out just about any camera. Just put a really bright light source into a dark setting (doesn't even have to be that dark, comparatively) and you exceed the contrast range of the camera - blowout! Professional crews go to great lengths to avoid it (giant sunshades and reflectors, filtration placed over the outside of windows to reduce the level of light streaming in and change its color temperature). Most of the time, we just live with the compromise at this level and accept that it's not going to be perfect.


That said, you can make a big difference with a few simple tricks. For instance, shoot with the sun (or any bright light source) behind you as much as possible. Shooting into bright light almost invariably destroys the shot. When shooting in direct sunlight, have a friend with a white poster board stand off to one side for medium shots and closeups. Reflect light onto the shadow side of your subject's body. It will pull in the contrast from the dark side to the light side and make that shot look 100% better. It makes a night and day difference.


----------



## Don Landis

Right on Joe- When I did my location shoots for my TV show we used all those flags, tents and such for the main scenes. However, when we went out to shoot a man on the street interview, the setup was much simpler, at most my grip would hold a fold away "light disk" reflector. Now with in the crowd run and gun style I do 99% of the time, I just use a filter on the lens at most.

Electronic Field Production-(EFP) Full grip truck on location. a ton of gear to set up.

Electronic News Gathering- (ENG) Shoot it to get the story and run to the next shot and shoot it to get the story.


----------



## trevorjharris

Sony has announced the TD20 at CES but still no 24p in 3D. Clearly Sony don't listen to thier customers. It is interesting that Canon have not entered this market. If only they could produce a 3D version of the G10 I would sell my TD10.


The HXR-NX3D is very overpriced for the extra sound quality and 24p it gives.


----------



## Prema999

The reduced lens spacing on the TD20 wasn`t the best idea either...


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21454403
> 
> 
> Right on Joe- When I did my location shoots for my TV show we used all those flags, tents and such for the main scenes. However, when we went out to shoot a man on the street interview, the setup was much simpler, at most my grip would hold a fold away "light disk" reflector. Now with in the crowd run and gun style I do 99% of the time, I just use a filter on the lens at most.
> 
> Electronic Field Production-(EFP) Full grip truck on location. a ton of gear to set up.
> 
> Electronic News Gathering- (ENG) Shoot it to get the story and run to the next shot and shoot it to get the story.



Sorry to hear about your friend, Don. I know how much that must have hurt.


----------



## Richard Adams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *trevorjharris* /forum/post/21469704
> 
> 
> Sony has announced the TD20 at CES but still no 24p in 3D. Clearly Sony don't listen to thier customers. It is interesting that Canon have not entered this market. If only they could produce a 3D version of the G10 I would sell my TD10.
> 
> 
> The HXR-NX3D is very overpriced for the extra sound quality and 24p it gives.



I'd rather see 48p-3D. That is the next generation of movie production. It would be easy enough to convert 48p to 24p, for playback compatibility with the clunky current breed of players and TVs.


Push the envelope on the source side until the playback side catches up.


Not sure what pressure would have made the TD20 smaller than the TD10. Could customer feedback have driven that?


----------



## Maxchance

RE: Neo3D software for Mac..... This rumor has been gone over on the Apple discussion groups.


There is no evidence that this software will allow "full editing" on a Mac. You have to remember that in addition to the software required for editing, there are also hardware considerations, including graphic cards, drives (if you want Bluray), monitors, etc., that are more PC based. I have contacted Neo and asked for more technical information, including hardware requirements, but have received no response. Regardless, the software sells for $999.00 so it better work seamlessly.


Apple has made the serious mistake of ignoring 3D as a future media. So far, all attempts to fully edit Sony 3D footage on Apple products have failed, although some may have found complex, time consuming and expensive ways to do it. I am not aware of any Mac method that is as stable and fully featured as PC editing.


Your best bet is to go with a PC laptop designed to edit 3D footage.


W.


----------



## dohccom

Greetings all. I have read through a lot of threads and apologize if this is a repeat question but how is everyone rendering their 3d Content. I have been playing with my SONY HDR-TD10 since Christmas with Vegas PRO 11 and PMB and Roxio and cant for the life of me get a rendering that looks anywhere as nice as the camera plugged into my 3d TV. SBS Full/Half/Real 3d etc all I get is half resolution, lots of ghosting or bad jittering with little 3d effects. Must have burned through 30 Blu Ray disks. The camera manual says it outputs to TV in Frame Pack mode to get full resolution but none of the products seem to offer that.


Love the camera and native display but rendering is beyond me so far. Any advice welcome as I am running out of memory and SD card and don’t want to offload till I know I can reproduce the on camera quality. If I am interpreting this post it sounds like 720 is best we can get on a render?? Hope not.


Mark


----------



## cakefoo

I just noticed this is on clearance at my local Best Buy for $899!


----------



## bravia3D

When rendering the Sony MVC files in Vegas or PD10, do you get any flickering or distortion in videos? Do they look pretty sharp, clear and flicker free?

Using the JVC no matter what I do, I always get flicker, and motion blur on some scenes. Truly annoys me badly.


----------



## Don Landis

No flicker at all but some fast pans will suffer some motion blur. e.g. If the image has a detailed pattern, like a closeup of window screen so the still is completely detailed. If I pan the camera the detail will be gone, until I stop the pan. Solution: pan either slower or very fast for a swish pan effect. It's those moderately fast pans that can get troublesome for motion blur. In a swish pan you want the blur as part of the effect. But if later the swish is annoying- here's how I get rid of it in my live shot-


Some suggestions on how I deal with blur and pans-

So, when I'm shooting and need to move to a new shot, I will often deliberately swish over to that shot or pan very slowly. Later in post, if I don't like the swish effect, I will cut it out and then (in Vegas) make an edit slice on down to the next edit point and go back to the gap now in my timeline and stretch the clip (slomo with control click and drag) to fill the 1 second gap. Choice of a scene cut or overlap the clip a second will be made when you view it. If you did the swish pan quickly, you probably only have to slice out a second of time and this 1 second time stretch over, say an 8-30 second long clip being stretched will hardly be noticed. Another option is to add a velocity curve and ramp the slomo back up to normal speed during the clip.

Of course there is also the old standby of a B-roll shot to cover the gap. You have lots of options to deal with equipment limitations.


----------



## relaxman

"If I pan the camera the detail will be gone, until I stop the pan."


Exactly what i discovered with TD10 glidecam shots in the forest yesterday,

and never see that with my dual Canon HV10 setup
 








As i walk near a big tree, sometimes i see details on it, sometimes not.

Maybe locking exposure or focus can help?


Even the resolution seems worse than my Canons did (1440x1080!)

Tomorrow i will made a resolution chart recording test.


----------



## Don Landis

relaxman- While auto focus can do some drift, even with lock down manual, the pan movement refresh problem has been with us since CCD and only improved slightly with CMOS devices. The better 3 Chip cameras have it too but not nearly as bad. The larger the imager (pixel density), the more of them, the less noticeable this is.



Hey- I forgot to tell you I used the Manfrotto glide cam device and it works pretty good. But, I still say the monopod works nearly as well. Nice it folds up like it does so I tossed it in my camera bag in case I need it some day.


----------



## bravia3D

Sounds like I should upgrade to the Panisonic in the future.


----------



## markr041

Sooner, rather than later. You will love the easy control you get of the 3D (convergence), and its 3D range from close-up to telephoto. Not to mention teh quality from the 3-chip design.


----------



## relaxman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21748008
> 
> 
> While auto focus can do some drift, even with lock down manual, the pan movement refresh problem has been with us since CCD



I never saw something like this with my Canon XM2 CCD.

And also never with my HV10 CMOS.

I thinked with TD10 it's beacuse of low bitrate MVC encoding.

What you think? (not every frame is I-frame)


I have some high quality polarizer sheet, and want to use with the TD10.

How can i easily secure it to the cam? Magnets, velcro or something else?


My glidecam 2000 is much lighter with the TD10, only need 1-1 weight at the bottom, so maybe i don't need another steadicam.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> I thinked with TD10 it's beacuse of low bitrate MVC encoding.



You can think or believe in whatever you want but the truth is this has been a well known artifact of the CCD and less, the CMOS forever. As I said 3 chip it will be less and going more in image elements will reduce it, but if you look for it, it will be there. On my broadcast cams, you have to zoom in to magnefy the pattern and then pan across it to see the blur. I've shot with a number of Canon's such as the XL1 and XL2 GL1 etc and they all have the "pan blur" This is one of the disadvantages of going smaller in imager size and/or single chip.


Polarizers and filters in general:


> Quote:
> How can i easily secure it to the cam? Magnets, velcro or something else?



This is what I have done since I use filters often for outside shooting.

The mount is a simple 77mm UV 1A filter with the glass removed to create a 1:1 threaded ring. It is glued in place with "Krazy Glue" That can be remove with Krazy glue solvent or Acetone when you wish to remove it and clean off the glue residue. I have removed my ring once. The back side of the open top is sealed with a piece of Black PVC plastic sheet about the thickness of a credit card cut to size and mounted in place with black silicone rubber cement.


I buy filters when on sale at Amazon. Even very expensive filters can run under $10 each when the run sales. I recently picked up a couple of $90 color gradients for $4.50 ea. I never pay full list price for filters. For the TD10 quality, the cheap filters will work as well as the broadcast glass from Tiffen.


Glidecam- Whatever works for your needs... I don't think I'll be using mine much but I did test it with a running shot and it was better than the monopod. I don't do much running shots these days. 12 years ago I did a TV show called "Running the Road" But in those days my camera weighted 25 pounds and the steadicam cost $10,000. A roof mount on a car with a sun roof was my solution. Since we were hired by the race director, permission to drive among the runners was not a problem.


----------



## relaxman

Great! Thanks for the pictures.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21750420
> 
> 
> You can think or believe in whatever you want but the truth is this has been a well known artifact of the CCD and less, the CMOS forever.



What i have seen is not the simple motion blur, trust me. Motion blur gives natural looking, i love it.

I'm also in the video industry for many years, and i think this effect is because of avchd long gops and low bitrate. I will post some samples soon!


Sorry, Krazy Glue is some special Super Glue, or can i use whatever i found?


I have Hoya CP filters and love the deep blue sky, green leaves, look under the water with it, etc.


----------



## relaxman

OK, i choose a scene from my test video:

a 3 sec walking next to a tree.

Please download it from here. 

Load to Vegas and play. What do you see? Not a simple, constant motion blur, which would be normal of course.

Instead the pattern on a tree pulse!! How often? Around 12 frames.


How much is the gop length of the 50i AVCHD file?....









I want to eliminate this ugly effect.


It's not because of recompressed rendering from Vegas. The original file also look like this.


----------



## Don Landis

Krazy Glue-Super Glue just brand names- Chemically its a cyanoacrylate class glue. Very good for this type of application to stick metal to metal surfaces. Some of these have a thickener to keep the glue from running. I prefer the thickened kind as it is safer around sensitive areas like a camera lens. Currently using "Gorilla" Super Glue.


I'll download your file in a few minutes and get back to you.


----------



## Don Landis

I don't see any pulse every 12 frames. In fact if I step through the clip one frame at a time there is no real change from one frame to the next. I put my timeline to 25 FPS PAL too. The only thing I did see was the exposure or luminance level adjusts in a couple increments as you get closer to the tree the auto exposure increases the overall frame brightness based on a dark tree trunk to a better, lighter exposed tree trunk. This is just your auto functions taking control, I'm sure. But the adjustments are in steps, not a smooth analog ramp.


The GOP conundrum is as old as video compression technology. There is always a compromise in the interest of cost, convenience, and speed. h.264 definitely uses a longer GOP than mpeg2. It also limits the bitrate. These compromises are all in the interest of being able to do higher and higher pixel resolutions and easier and lower costs of storage. Since you've been in this business longer than a month







you recall the transition from HDCAM to DVCAM to DVCPRO when considering a GOP. Then there was a big jump from mpeg2 to mpeg4 which enabled the use of recording HD to hard drives and P2 memory. Today we are using Flash memory by limiting the bandwidth even more. As flash memory gets faster and larger per unit cost we will see the GOP reduce. As the resolution goes to higher standards such as 4K we will see the GOP increase again as the designers of this stuff make compromises to give the best image, all things considered. If memory is made larger and faster, then maybe GOP will remain the same. The engineers are being pulled in many directions as they decide what is important in the end result.


----------



## relaxman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21751163
> 
> 
> I don't see any pulse every 12 frames.



Interesting. I clearly see it. Look it again!

Yes, it was auto exposure, but i not see only change in brightness, i see changes in detail at the tree. This is compression artifact, i'm sure now.

Set your preview monitor quality to half, and don't check "scale video to fit preview window" (right click on monitor)

You will see the effect.


"I put my timeline to 25 FPS PAL too"

When you step from 1:24 to 2:00 (PAL) look for the small detail.

2:00 has more!


"The only thing I did see was the exposure or luminance level adjusts"

I can do this again with locked exposure, but i don't think it will

resolve the problem.


----------



## markr041

There is another factor not being considered here: noise reduction. Sony employs noise reduction very aggressively in its cameras and camcorders, with a resultant loss in resolution. The noise-reduction algorithm also will result in resolution chnages when the light changes. The video clip looks like it was taken in a relatively low-light setting, and dark tree trunks are targets for Sony's noise-reducing destruction of sharpness.


----------



## relaxman

It was outdoor, around 14:00pm

Light was more than enough.

But yes, noise reduction is also affect this.

Just interesting, that exactly after every 12 frames, sharpness

changes. To me this only means one thing: When I frame is

stored, the picture is perfect, but after 12 frames it so much

differs from the I frame, that the sharpness will be worse.

This can be avoid with higher bitrate, like JVC.


----------



## Don Landis

I see no pulsing. I saw some differences in the detail as the distance got closer but what I saw here was the focus changing. ( Yes, I blew up the preview screen now to full resolution Thanks for the reminder as I was only looking for some sort of pulse in the video, not detail or sharpness)

At frame 26 and frame 40 there is a horizontal line that appears on the trunk below the hole on the right. This I suspect is a shadow of a branch that appeared and disappeared. There were other changes like this other places on the tree

Overall the entire tree was out of focus and lacked detail. The focus issue may be as a result of low light in that part of the shot and the cam was shooting at low depth of field due to wide open lens. Of course these are just guesses.


It is also obvious this is a back lit subject and is in it's own shadow. These kind of shots will always lack good contrast ratio and coupled with shadows over a highly textured surface like the bark of a tree, makes for a difficult subject to get the "Kodak Moment" picture. Come in from the other side with the sun to your back, or the brighter side of the tree and see if the image improves. You also have a back light compensator but this just washes out the background and forces the shadowed object to be at proper exposure. Not always a good solution unless shooting news or person in interview.

Again, I didn't see the sharpness change on a single frame ever 12 frames, I saw the over all focus lacking and change slightly through the clip. Behind the tree the detail on the ground is the same, but it was in the light. I followed a single white piece on the ground through out and it remained defined the same throughout the clip.


What setting did you use. The maximum bit rate for 24FPS here is 28Mbit. ( PS Mode I recall )


----------



## relaxman

"I see no pulsing"


I see "detail pulsing" on the tree, every 13 frames.

Please see with "Preview HALF" quality in Vegas.

Look. I made stepping frame by frame in the timeline and place a marker,

when i see some big detail changes.

The result is here .

I don't watched the frame counter meanwhile, just hit "M" when changes appear. Do you see some normality at the marker position?

Yes, everyone follow the next after 13 frames.

This can't be the iris adjust, i just don't walked so precisely









And the GOPs are exactly so long..


Actually light was more than enough, the lens wasn't open wide, and the tree is not out of focus. It just don't have enough contrast for the realtime MVC encoder. I think because the background has very tiny details (especially on the ground, brown leaves), and this changes from frame to frame, the encoder need more bitrate! Around 16mbit is just not enough for full hd. Remember the other 8mbit is for depend view in MVC stream.

So because the tree is dark, and don't have enough contrast, the encoder

simplify this part of the frame, not to carry much attention (heavy compression)

And because at every 13 frames the whole frame are encoded again, without any reference to the previous, this looks good again..


"Come in from the other side with the sun to your back"


I will check it.


"The maximum bit rate for 24FPS here is 28Mbit."


I was in 3D mode, so i cannot change anything for the bitrate.

And it's 50i.


----------



## Don Landis

Out of curiosity- I grabbed one of my TD10's and took it outside. It is a cloudy day, rained earlier so no direct sun, similar to your setting. I shot a tree in my back yard. I walked around the tree and when the sun was into the camera the image was less contrasting and dull. The camera was in 24fps 2D mode FX quality (highest) Lots of motion blur when I moved the camera fast. But I don't see any degrading of the image every 13 frames. Technically, the mp4 codec should all average out. The camera was left in IAuto mode so no attempt to do any manual override.


This is the link to your test file 


I'll check out your new upload now.



Yes, I agree with your observation the focus seems to shift and shadows seem to shift at your markers more than other locations. I still don't understand why your video is so out of focus on the tree.


On my upload you can see when I moved in real close, I think about 5 inches from the tree it was all out of focus but I expected that. Let me know if you see the same problems you call pulsing on my clip.


----------



## relaxman

OK, but i record technically in around 16mbit AVCHD format. (3D left)


Yes, your footage looks fine, but it's 2D and 28mbit.


----------



## Don Landis

Here is the 3D at 60i rendered to left only. Looks to be about 13Mbit. The sun was out so I don't know how meaningful this will be. When I jerked the camera the image blurred.


Download from here


----------



## relaxman

Yes, but this time, not much motion is there









I will repeat the test in a very sunny day too.

Focus, exposure locked too.

In 2D too.

Just don't like my footage now..


----------



## Hoteyes

Hi,


I was originally looking at the Panasonic TM900 as it has more zoom, but as I came across a good offer on the Sony TD10 I am thinking that the addition of 3D can make up for the less zoom.


One thing though; how it the built in microhone compared to adding an external microphone? I will mainly be recording indoor performances where the music is play back, but the singing live. From time to time I will however also be shooting outdoor live performances and a few interviews here and there.


For the performances I am looking at a Røde Stereo VideoMic and is thinking about getting the Audio-Technica AT8004L handheld microphone to use for interviews.


Does it make sence though to invest in the Røde microphone or will the built in microphone on the camcorder be good enough?


Thanks in advance


----------



## Don Landis

The TD10 has a great built in set of microphones for DD5.1 and stereo. It also has one of the best wireless remote mics for interviews. It is the only wireless mic with IFB which is a real professional feature. The live performances I have uploaded on my You Tube channel give a good demo of the TD10's internal mic capability. Sorry, no examples on YT of my BT mic. www.youtube.com/user/DonLandis Check out the Earth Wind and Fire as well as Kelly Pickler live concerts.


In order to connect a professional mic to the TD10 you will need an XLR to stereo mini impedance matching balun. I have both a mono and stereo adapter for this but it is one I wired up and not something you can buy over the counter.


Here's some of my accessories I have for the TD10:

The plugin 5.1 mic is no longer made and I really couldn't get it to work with the TD10. It works fine with my older SR12. The HLV HL1 is actually a video light, not a mic (typo) OK in an emergency but not very good because it is too close to the camera. Runs off of camera battery.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21755562
> 
> 
> In order to connect a professional mic to the TD10 you will need an XLR to stereo mini impedance matching balun. I have both a mono and stereo adapter for this but it is one



Well I have such XLR to stereo mini for both XLR 3 poles (mono) and XLR 5 poles (stereo). You can purchase that, even if they may not be cheap.


The second issue is that you will need an adapter to plug in an external microphone. That can be purchased too.


The third issue is that a professional microphon may be to long - if you use a dead cat then you may see that in the video.


----------



## TrickMcKaha

Hey Don, I might want to get that wireless mic for my TD10 that is now in shipment. Would you post details or maybe a link?


----------



## Don Landis

Trick- The Blue Tooth wireless mic shown is my modification of the one you will get when you order it. I hard wired the Sony ECM-77 lavelier as it is much higher quality and smaller than the one inside the large transmitter. But you can order them from B&H, Amazon EBAY as well as a number of camera stores on line. Locally, Wolf / Ritz camera stores have them in stock.


Wolfgang- If you have the XLR conversion to stereo mini, then you can plug that into the mic input on the TD10. It's behind the door same as the earphone jack.


Here's my setup for adding a shotgun mic. Note- with this setup be sure you buy a mic that has self power as the TD10 does not supply professional mic power through the mini stereo jack. The mic shown is one I had handy for this quick photo but it does not work as it requires power. I have a Sennheiser ME66 with Power K6 that I normally use when needed.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21756621
> 
> 
> Wolfgang- If you have the XLR conversion to stereo mini, then you can plug that into the mic input on the TD10. It's behind the door same as the earphone jack.



Don, I know that...


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> The second issue is that you will need an adapter to plug in an external microphone. That can be purchased too.



Sorry, must be the language barrier. I thought you were thinking of the 3rd party hot shoe adapter that converts it to an analog mike input with volume control. I would have purchased one of those adapters but it was mono only.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

It is no problem, Don. Sure, language barriers are always an issue, if you are not a native speaker. But as said - that is no problem.


----------



## relaxman

Today i printed a resolution chart and played with my cams.

What was interesting that TD10 in 2D mode is a lot-lot sharper than in 3D mode! I think it's because the full sensor area is not used because of parallax adjusting possibilities, but i wondered how blurry is the picture in 3D mode







In fact even my many years old Canon HV10 with 1440x1080i resolution was way sharper!









I also have a HX7V full hd camera, and grabbed some frames in progressive format. I get the same resolution like with TD10 in 2D mode.


Back to TD10:

AE shift work in 2D. Is there any trick to work also in 3D?

Also i have read in one topic (not remember which) for a trick using the TD10 in 3D,

which was not documented in manual. Somebody can explain again? thx


----------



## Don Landis

At one time I thought AE shift would hold for 3D mode if set in 2D but I don't think so mow. Therefore when I believe exposure is too bright (Usually the case) I push the button and select manual exposure and then ride that control for the shot. This is what I had to do for the Kelly Pickler performance on my YT channel. They blasted the girl's face with shotgun spot lights and the video got torched until I could switch to manual exposure.


I haven't seen image softness from 3D mode to 2D at all here and I'm presently working on a project where I shot most of the scenes with ultra stereo base TD10's in 2D and paired in post. 5" - 30" IA depending on the stage size. Then some shots were done with a single TD10 in 3D mode because I needed the tighter IA for closeup shots. The shots are identical in image sharpness.


----------



## relaxman

So, that was the trick which i read here somewhere, but finally i have to forget it?

As i remember it also worked by somebody, and he hoped that with the next firmware this will not be disabled.


"I haven't seen image softness from 3D mode to 2D at all here"


Hmm, your TD10 differs from mine (again), maybe the NTSC version differs from the PAL?


Here is the test grabbed progressive frames.


First, compare TD10 in 2D and 3D (with stabilizer off):
http://www.relaxvideo.hu/res-td10-2d.png 
http://www.relaxvideo.hu/res-td10-3d.png 

I think anybody can see the difference. It's not small.


Here is the nice, light hx7v:
http://www.relaxvideo.hu/res-hx7v.png 


And my (not used anymore) HV10:
http://www.relaxvideo.hu/res-hv10.png 

Pretty good from 1440x1080 source, isn't?


Can you also do the test? No chart is needed, just a scene with small details in 2D and 3D mode.


thx


----------



## Don Landis

The test chart needs to be properly set up in order to do any meaningful comparison. You need to align the chart with the small white triangles at the edge of the frame in each shot. There are two for each top, bottom, left and right sides ( 8 total) It seems you either were unaware of how to use the chart or didn't care about getting meaningful test measurement. The chart must be placed so that it is not leaning back at the top nor shot off center at an angle. You don't need to compare the TD10 to another camera with different imager as while it may be fascinating it has nothing to do with the claim that the TD10 has less resolution in 3D mode than 2D. Also, when you pull a 2D still off the 3D TD10 all you are looking at is the same left camera in in both modes, so your mode for shooting needs to be the same also, mode in this case to mean the 2D has to be set to the same as the 3D since there is only one 3D shooting mode allowed ( frame rate 60i and size 1080x1920 and bit rate for a single left eye camera ) I'm not sure what the bit rate setting in Image/size selection in the TD10 menu would be. While there may be some reason for comparing the 2D image grab from a 2D shot, it would be better to compare the visual res test in a 3D image since that is really what we are trying to compare. This presents some tricky decisions on how to do that. Easier to do it for a 3D _video_ clip of the chart and compare with a 2D _video_ of the chart, but this is just to make the test more representative of how the cameras will be used.


What I can tell you is that when I shoot twin TD10's in 2D for stereo pairs, I set them for maximum quality in 24p which I know is a higher bit rate than the 3D mode allows. Then in post I am converting my few 60i 3D shots to 24p for the edit. So, yes, this in and of itself technically will result in a lower "quality" than the paired clips. But the real question is: How critical and how noticeable is that difference? I say it is far less important than the other aspects of my project which is 1. story line, 2. exposure, color match, focus, 3D parallax, framing, and sound quality, 3. overall presentation flow. I recognize that I am working with different cameras and shooting in different modes with the same camera. To me, the subtle differences in the resultant image are undetectable by _my_ audience. But here I'm referring to just a philosophy of TV production, not the technical measurements of two different modes of operation of the same camera.


Bottom line to all this is pretty simple, From what you showed me in the tests, even though the chart was not properly aligned, the TD10 appears to be working within design specifications. If you feel the TD10 is inadequate for your work then I suggest you shop for higher quality equipment. If you feel your TD10 is defective and needs repair, send it in to Sony but from what I see I'm afraid your biggest challenge will be to convince the repair tech there is something broke that he can fix to your satisfaction.


----------



## relaxman

Yes, i don't made it with properly setup, studio quality test, just a quick test, chart on my bed, etc. I placed the cam always so the top and bottom white triangles just doesn't go out of the frame.

But i don't think a better test environment can give another result. In fact, i record 2 other charts too, with exactly the same result. So i'm sure this is the reality, and this is what i saw with my naked eyes: the resolution is much lower in 3D mode than in 2D.


"You don't need to compare the TD10 to another camera"


Why you say this? I will do a film with TD10 and for far object with two HX7V, so i will mix the videos, and don't want big difference in picture quality.


Recording mode was 50i in both 2D and 3D mode..


"it has nothing to do with the claim that the TD10 has less resolution in 3D mode than 2D."


Yes, i just showed the test result for people who are interested in it. Like the HV10 result.


"But the real question is: How critical and how noticeable is that difference?"

Yes, in fact i made this test not because i was curious or have several hours leisure, instead because i saw this resolution loss with my eyes!

I saw it has lower resolution than my HV10, etc.


"it is far less important than the other aspects of my project"

I agree, that many aspects are important too, but for me the resolution is in the first 3 aspect for sure. On a fullhd tv i want to see crystal clear fullhd videos..


"If you feel the TD10 is inadequate for your work then I suggest you shop for higher quality equipment."

Yes, when i buyed not many alternatives was available:

3DNX1, which has the same optics and sensor, so the quality is equal.

JVC TD1, maybe a better resolution, but narrower FOV, pulsing highlight,

worse lcd screen, etc.


"If you feel your TD10 is defective and needs repair"

I don't think any service can amend the resolution, it seems all td10 is work so because the parallax adjustment possibilities


regards!


----------



## Don Landis

You may have confirmed a qualitative difference with improperly set up tests but then you already were convinced there was a qualitative difference. Running more qualitative examples doesn't result in _quantitative_data which is what the charts would give you if run properly. Not that it matters because you have your mind set that the TD10 isn't high enough quality for your needs. I don't question that.










> Quote:
> "You don't need to compare the TD10 to another camera"
> *Why you say this?* I will do a film with TD10 and for far object with two HX7V, so i will mix the videos, and don't want big difference in picture quality.



I thought I explained but again, it has to do with how much difference _and your original question that the TD10 in 3D isn't as high resolution as TD10 in 2D._ I'm presently working on a project with a huge range of scene sizes and use a single TD10 in 3D mode for small scenes and the larger ones with twin TD10's in 2D FX mode 24fps with wide separation IA for the large distant mountain ranges. IA's vary widely but I'm not seeing a difference between the 3D mode and 2D mode _that is significant._ Then again, I'm not biasing the comparison either, as my audience is actually viewing under what would be considered a double blind viewing session. Trust me, if I felt the image was inadequate, I would get something that is adequate. For example, I shot a bunch of clips using the Bloggie 3D and have tried to mix with my TD10 and it is just too much of a difference. So, I gave up on that. It was detected in a double blind viewing by my wife who didn't know what she was looking at and saw the difference.


When all of us first saw the TD10 there really was only 2 to choose from in the price category. TD10 from Sony and TD1 from JVC. TD10, IMO, had the advantage too. Today there are more choices. Maybe you need to consider the Panasonic Z10000 which clearly has higher sharpness and is better able to preserve the mode resolution because of the 3 chip cameras. Your needs are different and it may be a better suit for you. For me, it is too big or I would own a pair of them as opposed to a pair of TD10's.

Possibly, in 2-3 years none of these technologies will be satisfactory for your needs as maybe by then you will insist on 4K cams and by then they may be available and affordable. But I want to make 3D today without the expense and difficulty of large complex equipment. I'm officially retired from those days of studio in the field EFP and my only association with it now is to try and sell what's left of my field production truck load of equipment.

Seriously, you should examine the Panasonic z10000. More and more shooters with professional goals are advancing to that system. Or, wait until after NAB announcements and see what will be new. I haven't heard any rumors yet so hopefully I'll be surprised. I will be there and keep you all posted what's new.


----------



## relaxman

OK, Don you are right!









I was wrong. My statement: 3D is a lot softer than 2D is not 100% true.

(now i see a very minor quality difference or nothing)


What changed?

I captured the wrong view: the right frame.
*Which is softer than the left!*


The issue is also found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1363453 


I read that your cam hasn't this difference, you are lucky!


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> What changed?
> 
> I captured the wrong view: the right frame.
> 
> Which is softer than the left!



Interesting. If you can clearly document this problem where the right camera doesn't focus track the left camera a good tech should be able to correct this in their diagnostics and calibration application. There is a hot connector on the bottom of the TD10 behind a door that they connect to to do final calibration and setups. I understand it takes only about an hour service charge to do. But I would worry that I get a novice tech who doesn't know how to be precise in the setup. I'm sure that Sony didn't design the right camera to be out of focus sync with the left.










Sony may have a flat rate repair charge or charge by the hour. They operate both ways depending on the camera. If I had your problem it would be worth a phone call to find out what can be done. Then you can make an informed decision. Be sure to ask how long the down time will be. In a discovery diagnostics repair, you will pay for an hour minimum to get your camera back, not repaired and they will give you an estimate. If you go ahead with the repair, you will give them your CC number and they will proceed immediately. I've been through this with Sony many times so I know the drill.


----------



## iWATCH3D

Hey guys, as a break from the all important tech talk, want to share a video with you that I shot on the HDR-TD10 and edited in Vegas 11. It's the start of the Gumball 3000 rally, so cars, models and lots of other crazy people. Hope you like it.





With what parallax I had to work with, it kind of looks best on my Gadmei P83 8" autostereoscopic viewer, ok on a 24" Alienware 3D Vision monitor, but on my 50" plasma it does lack a higher interaxial, but anyway, it's a point and shoot,you have to know your limitations and just work with what you've got.

Please give comments and feedback.


----------



## relaxman

I can set manual exposure in 3D.

How can i know, when i am at zero gain?


The focus assist function only available in 2D mode?


thanks


----------



## Don Landis

iWATCH3D- I follow your work on YT and it is always a pleasure to watch.


> Quote:
> you have to know your limitations and just work with what you've got.



You and I would get along great on a shoot.










________________________



> Quote:
> I can set manual exposure in 3D.
> 
> How can i know, when i am at zero gain?
> 
> 
> The focus assist function only available in 2D mode?



relaxman- Don't worry about the numbers. Just adjust the exposure for proper image that you like on the TD10 monitor.


A good way to know what you can and can't adjust in 3D mode on the TD10 is click on the manual adjust button and hold it in and up pops a menu of adjustments. The FIRST THREE on the list are available in 3D mode and all BUT the first one is available in 2D Mode. Or, you could just read the manual.


----------



## relaxman

Thanks, i already read the manual..

Just ask, if there is some trick.


"Just adjust the exposure for proper image that you like on the TD10 monitor."

When i film say at room with 40W lightning, i see in 2D display mode that the dark areas have noise. I want to lower the gain to zero to eliminate noise. But if i set lower and lower the exposure, the noise don't disappear in 4-5 step instead just darken. So i just wanted to know, where is the point, where noise not exist for sure?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> where is the point, where *noise not exist for sure*?



When the camera is shut off.










Seriously, the TD10 has a Low Lux mode for 2D. This is a special high gain light amplifier that can produce an image in poor light conditions. It is _not_ a night vision IR amplifier. I don't generally use this except when I have no choice to raise the lighting to acceptable levels. This might be a stage show where the lighting is controlled by the show. Even then there might be not enough light for a good image. AND, it will have a level of noise I can see. There is not one technology, not even high speed film that doesn't add some visible noise to the picture. When it comes to 3D the lack of adequate lighting will ruin the 3D capability and produce poor results. Sony does not enable the Low Lux amplifier in 3D as high noise could be counter productive to creating 3D in video. High speed film may prove to be a better choice and then shoot day for night like is done in the movies to create the illusion of night.


The best low lux, low noise amplifier technology is available through FLIR corp. I have one of these night vision scopes on my rifle for hunting at night. It uses thermal imaging technology. Some camcorders have these options too but none are noise free. Rather they are meant mainly for surveillance, or real night vision applications.


Sometimes you have to follow the excellent advice from IWATCH3D, _"you have to know your limitations and just work with what you've got."_ I would add to that, if you know your camera very well then you will be able to maximize your performance with what you have.


----------



## relaxman

Thanks i mean, where no gain is set.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxman* /forum/post/21861304
> 
> 
> Thanks i mean, where no gain is set.



Set the manual exposure to center scale. Remember this is an electronic device, not film. But to relate to photographic language for photographers, light amplifier gain or attenuation control is called "exposure" This could be debated all day long but the bottom line is all video will generate some level of noise. In film, noise is called "grain" In video the zero gain is a reference point related to exposure. So, in video there is no such thing as "no gain." All light is processed through amplifiers to record the image. Gain is a relative issue in video. It is not absolute. This means that "no gain" or center scale for one camcorder will be different for another. Unlike film where the sensitivity to light follows the film, not the camera.


____________________________________


Just curious, are you reading this in English or are you translating to your native language? I am concerned that I am writing to get the message across as I know you understand how to shoot with lots of experience. But, I think some things get lost in translation.


----------



## relaxman

Interesting. Thanks for info.

With my Canon XM2 when i set to manual mode, and set 0 gain, i always get very clean picture, without noise. Up to +6dB noise is acceptable, but with higher it's not. I thinked zero gain means record what the sensor see. Yes, of course it also has internal amplifier, but i don't want to go higher with user adjustable gain.


I read in english.

regards


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> I read in english.



Thanks, sometimes the Google translate can get confusing.

______________________


I think it also has to do with the scene. I know that an overall low light with difuse lighting the overall image has to be amplified and this will generate lots of noise. But, much of the work I have done is lots of small bright lights at night with black sky. This can result in a nice low level noise and pitch black surrounding. But when the lighting gets bright enough to expose the surrounding area, often this will produce some noise that otherwise is lost. Check out my Fireworks at Disney on my YT channel This has some scenes of different levels of noise yet the cameras were both set for "Low Light" = off and manual exposure for pitch black sky but not lower exposure.


----------



## relaxman

Hi


is there any trick to use the Content Management Utility for creating separate 2D left-right files from the 3D MVC files (recorded with TD10)

Unfortunately we have only the MTS files, not the additional small files.

The program recognize the files as 3D video, but cannot convert to 2D.

Why?? On our computers Vegas rendering from paired clips are more reliable, than with MVC files on the timeline.

thanks


----------



## Don Landis

I'm not familiar with Content Management Utility as it was released for Pro version of the TD10. But, the equivalent utility for output is the Device Explorer in Vegas. Select this under "View". This will also deliver MTS video that is properly formatted for Vegas rendering of the MVC file. Put this clip on the Vegas timeline and select Left only for output in 2D mode for project rendering. Save the file as "Left" Then repeat the process selecting "Right" only. I'm not sure this answers your question but it is what I do to extract the left eye and right eye 2D clips from a 3D MVC TD10 recording.


A better question, I think, is why are you having trouble working with MVC 3D files in Vegas? I work with MVC files and paired files as well as other file types that are supported with no problems in Vegas. Most of my MVC files are imported in batch with the PMB and if I have one or two files to bring in I will just connect the TD10 and use Device explorer. Now I may have m2ts and MTS files mixed on the timeline plus some paired video too.


----------



## relaxman

Thanks.

I also don't know the reason, why we have problems with MVC on the timeline. We tested 3 different PC now, each with i5 or i7 cpu, 8-16GB ram, win7 64bit, legal Vegas11 Pro, and neither can render the 1 hour long 3D film to Sony MVC (1920 at 23,97fps). One PC was just builded few days ago. Just can't be that all computers suffers from hardware error.

And the most interesting thing, that rendering bring bad frames here and there. Sometimes cpu usage drop to 0%, etc. But not always exactly the same place. We cannot think anything else than a software error, but don't understand why nobody else have such issue? Maybe they don't edit 1 hour long project, and render to MVC codec?

We render the timeline to lagarith lossless avi left and right only, bring those files to a new timeline, pair to 3D, and voila: mvc rendering is flawless.


----------



## hibijibis

hi all. new to avs forums.


not sure if this has been asked before. however does anyone know if there is a timelapse mode on the HDR-TD10?


thanks!


----------



## relaxman

No, only with JVC TD1, or gopro or some canon cameras.

But you can record a few hours easily with TD10, and speed up later.

Much better method than with DV tape, like i did it in 2004-2008


----------



## viperdriver5150




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/20948903
> 
> 
> It's all relative, Tony. Broadcast level equipment is all expensive. It's relative because you can charge for that in the industry. BUT, you do have to know how to get the shots the client wants and they are ever so picky on the most minor details.
> 
> The one complaint I always had with Joe's end of the business is the academics concentrated way too much on perfection and excellence at any cost and failed all too often in educating the videography student how to match the project goal with budgets.
> 
> 
> I agree the TD-10 has room for improvements. As I sit here adding a 77mm threaded ring to my second TD-10 to add UV filtering, this is foremost on my mind. I would also like to have additional manual control in the 3D mode. Frank and I both want the composite video out not to be disabled when connecting LANC. I want a cross hairs and grid in the 3D mode on the shooting screen. Ability to keep the camera on when the screen is closed. I miss not having a small eye viewfinder for shooting in bright sun and not needing the Hoodman 450. Sony to make a rectangular lens shade detachable that does not show in full wide 3D. I now have two TD-10's so I don't expect to be buying any more so unfortunately these ideas won't benefit me.



Hello. I could use a little help and I am at a loss on how you install UV filters on the HDR-TD10. I just received the camera today and any help would really be appreciated.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *viperdriver5150* /forum/post/21924743
> 
> 
> Hello. I could use a little help and I am at a loss on how you install UV filters on the HDR-TD10. I just received the camera today and any help would really be appreciated.



I believe Don has described his device in prior posts, but if you are not a do-it-your-selfer, I have seen a ready-made device promoted by a small company that also offers a mirror set-up that allows for a greater separation between the lenses for long distance 3D shots. Both of these add-ons for the TD10 are several hundred dollars apiece so I would be curious to learn if Don's solution is more economical.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I believe Don has described his device in prior posts, but if you are not a do-it-your-selfer, I have seen a ready-made device promoted by a small company that also offers a mirror set-up that allows for a greater separation between the lenses for long distance 3D shots. Both of these add-ons for the TD10 are several hundred dollars apiece so I would be curious to learn if Don's solution is more economical.



Yes, considerably!


If you see a sale on the filters, it's the best way to buy them. The mount on the TD 10 is really simple. Buy two UV filters. The first one you remove the glass and discard it. Then you mount the threaded ring to the camera with an instant bonding glue from SuperGlue. Radio Shack sells it. You will also need to fit a thin piece of black plastic on the top back to shield light from hitting the back of the filter which can cause glare. The second filter you bought is used as is. The size that will rest on the face of the TD10 is 77mm. I found sale prices on UV filters for as low as $1.99 ea. on Amazon. My filter mount is fairly simple while the one available from Cyclopital3D has a mount from the bottom threaded hole. Mine is semi permanent modification while the one from cyclopital3D is temporary. If your the type that considers maintaining your equipment in virgin condition then you don't want to use what I did. If you don't mind big bulky temporary accessory for several hundred dollars then go with the cyclopital3D.


FYI - in my last flight, TSA dropped my TD10 on the inspection table and dented the 77 mm ring making it unusable. I had one spare UV filter in my filter set so I removed the glass, went to Radio Shack and bought some super glue and fitted a new ring to the camera in the hotel room. It's that easy!


----------



## dwhite601




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21925252
> 
> 
> FYI - in my last flight, TSA dropped my TD10 on the inspection table and dented the 77 mm ring making it unusable.



Ouch! I took my new JVC HMQ10 (4K camera) to NAB this week. I keep it in my backpack. On the way out, TSA scaned my backpack twice, but stoped short of a visual inspection. On the way home, I offered to take the camera out, but that TSA crew said just leave it in the bag. Maybe it helped that I had told them in advance that there was a camcorder in the backpack.


This summer, when I go to Hawaii, I'll need to get my laptop, two portable hard drives, my Panasonic Z10000, JVC GY-HMQ10, Fuji 3DW3, Sanyo VPC-102, and possibly my Canon EOS 350D through security. I'm not looking forward to that part of the trip.


----------



## Don Landis

If the camcorder uses tape, the rules say the camcorder needs to be placed in a tray, just like a laptop. If hard drive or memory card camcorder you can leave it in the camera bag. I also suffered another loss unrelated to the TD10 damage. In viewing online whether others have suffered and it seems the number of claims being filed it os a quite common event and practice for TSA to steal and damage your stuff. For both damage and TAS agent theft is horrendous. Cash jewelry, cameras and iPads are the most common losses being filed. Says also it takes an average of 6 months for the claim to be reviewed. I will b filing a claim when I get home.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/21928727
> 
> 
> If the camcorder uses tape, the rules say the camcorder needs to be placed in a tray, just like a laptop. If hard drive or memory card camcorder you can leave it in the camera bag. I also suffered another loss unrelated to the TD10 damage. In viewing online whether others have suffered and it seems the number of claims being filed it os a quite common event and practice for TSA to steal and damage your stuff. For both damage and TAS agent theft is horrendous. Cash jewelry, cameras and iPads are the most common losses being filed. Says also it takes an average of 6 months for the claim to be reviewed. I will b filing a claim when I get home.



Sorry to hear that. Several years ago I had an electronic game wrapped for Christmas in my checked in luggage. it mysteriously disappeared somewhere between Alaska and Hawaii. At least I consoled myself that some TSA agent's little kid might be having a happier Christmas.


----------



## SonyListens

Hello Hibijibis,


Good afternoon! My name is Amanda Maffei and I work for the SonyListens department. I wasn't able to find that question in our Esupport website, so I would recommend calling: Priority Service: 239-768-7547 Hours:


Mon-Fri 8:00am-12:00am (Midnight) ET

Sat-Sun 9:00am-8:00pm ET


Regarding to your questing with the timelapse mode. I hope this helps! Thank you! =)


-Amanda Maffei

SonyListens team


----------



## bordo32

Intersting that several Best Buy stores still have last HDR-TD10 units on sale for $599.


----------



## Darkside




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bordo32* /forum/post/21984230
> 
> 
> Intersting that several Best Buy stores still have last HDR-TD10 units on sale for $599.



Wow. Best Buy online store is advertised for $1499. The cheapest I can find online is about $900.


----------



## bordo32

I went to one BestBuy accidentaly, found they have them for $899, few days later came back, wanted to take a closer look, but TD10 it was gone. I asked sales, they checked their system (not BB.com) but their internal DOS OS or something, it showed that svereral BB stores 50 mile radius had them available for $599. Those units brand new, not the returned ones. One unit is at BB Mishawaka, MI; other in Calamazoo MI or something.


----------



## djamesb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Adams* /forum/post/21263677
> 
> 
> Since PMB records the native 1080i60-3D recording, no conversion is needed for this. So far the only bluray players that can play these AVCHD 2.0 disks are Sony models 480 580 and 780.



Hi again guys, been a while, hope things going well for you all. I still have my TD10 and ready to video again, looking to get a bluray. If I'm going to use PMB and burn AVCHD 2.0, imagine it's still recommended to get a Sony Bluray player. Can I presume the newer models S790 and S590 will work fine?


Thank you and best regards,

Dan


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *djamesb* /forum/post/21989070
> 
> 
> Hi again guys, been a while, hope things going well for you all. I still have my TD10 and ready to video again, looking to get a bluray. If I'm going to use PMB and burn AVCHD 2.0, imagine it's still recommended to get a Sony Bluray player. Can I presume the newer models S790 and S590 will work fine?
> 
> 
> Thank you and best regards,
> 
> Dan



Probably, but I do have a word of caution about the ability to play back 3D Blu-ray file sturctures from DVD media. I've owned the Sony 480, 570 and 580 3D players, and they all played back such discs. I use them a lot, since I do frequent tests of 3D Blu-ray iso files created in Vegas (since DVD discs are cheaper than blank Blu-ray discs.) The Sony 590 does not play the discs at all. I replaced my 580 with a 590, but had to return it because that capability had been removed. I bought a Samsung instead, since they do play back such media. The 590 probably will play AVCHD 2.0, but someone will have to verify that.


----------



## djamesb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/21989398
> 
> 
> Probably, but I do have a word of caution about the ability to play back 3D Blu-ray file sturctures from DVD media. I've owned the Sony 480, 570 and 580 3D players, and they all played back such discs. I use them a lot, since I do frequent tests of 3D Blu-ray iso files created in Vegas (since DVD discs are cheaper than blank Blu-ray discs.) The Sony 590 does not play the discs at all. I replaced my 580 with a 590, but had to return it because that capability had been removed. I bought a Samsung instead, since they do play back such media. The 590 probably will play AVCHD 2.0, but someone will have to verify that.



Thanks Joe, will stand by for other comments and you confirm caution and appropriate research before getting the newer player. Looks like it best to stick with a Sony BRay player, as previously discussed.


Best regards,


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bordo32* /forum/post/21985480
> 
> 
> I went to one BestBuy accidentaly, found they have them for $899, few days later came back, wanted to take a closer look, but TD10 it was gone. I asked sales, they checked their system (not BB.com) but their internal DOS OS or something, it showed that svereral BB stores 50 mile radius had them available for $599. Those units brand new, not the returned ones. One unit is at BB Mishawaka, MI; other in Calamazoo MI or something.




Looks like the $599 ones are no longer listed on those store's websites as clearance items. Also looks like that clearance price was limited to the Midwest region. On the West Coast best I could locate was one for $899 and several other stores had higher clearance prices. The dot.com website no longer offers the TD10 for shipping so you have to search to find a BB that still has one in inventory - most don't. Anyone know if you find one at a store that you cannot drive to whether the stores will ship clearance items directly to a customer or otherwise send one to your local store?


----------



## markr041

Don has posted, appropriately, a video he made using the TD10 in the Youtube Home Video thread. Those of you interested in the TD10 should view it to see how the camera performs run n' gun:







Here are my comments:


I downloaded the 1080p version of the video and watched it on my LG 3D monitor in both 3D and 2D. In general it was great to see all the color, and I liked the way the camera moved and scenes were set up to exploit depth or popout. I actually liked the ceiling shots among the best, which must have been difficult to shoot given the backlighting, but they were well-exposed and despite being distant, had depth.


But there are in evidence many of the problems that frustrate me with the TD10, and 3D issues as well:


1. Many of the shots are overexposed, with lack of color saturation (e.g., 4:21, 3:48). Some of this is due to limited dynamic range. The TD10 in auto mode overexposes in bright light and that seems to be in evidence here sometimes (far from always). I am constantly fighting this when I use the TD10, using the exposure ring. The close-up flower shots were all well-exposed with excellent color (even lighting).


2. In many shots, the limited dynamic range is in evidence (e.g. 7:08). There was evidently horrendous harsh uneven lighting conditions during the day, and the result is many hotspots or vast parts of the scene overexposed.


3. Relatedly, the shots at night had much better color - the TD10 is really good in dim light, and if the lighting is not so harsh, as in the daylight scenes, the color is nicely saturated. The scene pair where you go from the daylight shot to the nightime equivalent is interesting in itself, but also shows the difference in overall light balance.


4. The inability to fix exposure sometimes hurts - in one shot, with red and yellow flowers (9:21), the camera moves a fraction of an inch and the whole scene gets darker (because more of the bright yellow flowers were in the scene, causing the iris to close). In many slow pan shots, the exposure changes as the light changes, resulting in a lot of the shot being either overexposed or underexposed dynamically. Of course if the exposure is fixed, there would still be a problem as the light changes (the wb changes also, because the light source changes). I just avoid scenes with changing light. They don't look good in televised sports events either, where thay have the best cameras, when the shot moves from shadow to bright light. But the problem is worse if the camera has limited dynamic range.


5. The 3D was nice, but, and this is a big but: the many close-up flower shots of course had pop-out but almost all had severe window violations - the objects in front of the frame were almost always cut off at the bottom of the window. The only one that worked well - no wv - was the oval with shoe-pair centered and in front of the frame, since there is no stem support in view that is cut off. But in one shot, the camera moves towards the shoe/oval and slightly cuts off the bottom of the oval that is in front of the window (2:54), so another wv. Looking at flowers in front of the window with their stems cut off by the window frame results in headaches - it violates the physics the eye is used to. Many shots like this. The penultimate close-up of the framed picture (not the last one, which is very nice) also has severe wv.


I did not get a headache, and I enjoyed the video - the color overall and the third dimension were impressive. A fun tour.


----------



## NorthTV

Do you have a sense as to whether any of these limitations have been overcome in the TD20? Has anyone here found a compelling reason to get the TD20 over the TD10?


----------



## markr041

I would bet the limited dynamic range is related to the small sensor (1/4"), which has not changed. But this is speculation. There are no more manual controls in 3D than in the TD10. But supposedly, the TD20 is sharper, although lack of sharpness is not a big deal with the TD10 in my view. Window violations are not the fault of the camera, of course.


----------



## relaxman

"lack of sharpness is not a big deal"

Sorry, i don't agree with you. Even my years old hdv canons can record sharper pictures! The TD10 sharpness is ok in 2D, but somewhat lower in 3D from my experiences.


----------



## markr041

You don't have to be sorry! I agree with you, the camera is less sharp in 3D than in 2D (I think this is true also for the Z10000, but it is a lot sharper than the TD10 or TD20) and less sharp than many 2D camcorders, certainly than the TM900. I am just saying that in 3D, the sharpness issue is not that conspicuous.


----------



## relaxman

OK, agree









I think all of this is because the possibility of change the parallax, don't you think?


----------



## markr041

That's an interesting thought - you mean that the frame is shifting over the set of pixels when parallax is changed. But I think the sensor has many more pixels than are needed for 1920x1080, so there should be no reduction in resolution - plenty of room to shift around. One reason may be the bitrate per view is lower on average in 3D than 2D - 28Mbps for _one_ view in 2D and the same bitrate for _two_ 1080i views in 3D (although there is use made of one view to compress the other in MVC, which results in more efficiency).


----------



## relaxman

I don't know for sure, but i think because of lower bitrate we have more often macroblocks especially when fast motion is present. But this resolution loss is also visible with static scene, where the bitrate is more than enough.

This is also with photos: say you have two pictures, one is 2 megapixel, the other is 1 megapixel, and you scale down to 640x480. From the 2 megapixel version you can get sharper downscaled picture.


----------



## markr041

Yes, bit-starved action can result in macro blocks. But the bitrate requirement also depends on the complexity of the scene - some static scenes require more bits than others. If there is a lot of detail - e.g., blades of grass, leaves on trees - more bits are needed. So, a lower bitrate can lower "sharpness" or detail even for static scenes. Higher megapixel sensors can in principle resolve more detail in still shots; same point.


----------



## Don Landis

Mark- Thanks so much for your detailed review of the Bellagio Spring Gardens in 3D.


Couple of comments now to satisfy your curiosity on some of the points you made-


The TD10 was put in IA the entire shoot which lasted about 30 minutes for the daytime and about 15 minutes for the evening shots. I did not have a lot of time because I was on the way to the fountains which was my main goal that day. So, your assessment of run and gun style was dead on! The evening shot was done as I returned from shooting the evening fountain performances. In both cases I took time to do an auto calibrate of the 3D setup the TD10 offers just outside the Conservatory in the lobby near the fountain before beginning to shoot. I also shoot everything with x.v. color enabled and most of the time use a UV filter, either for UV or to just protect the lens from water splashing. The lens filter had to be cleaned off several times for the fountain shoot. In one shot with the bridge, I had lens flares as I was shooting in the direction of the sun.

I made no color balance, brightness, contrast, or gamma adjustments to any of the shots in post, all were as the camera recorded them.




Brightness and washout of the shots: First of all there were no shots that were done in manual exposure, everything was in I.A. mode. Lighting did vary but the sun light coming through the roof was pretty constant location. What you observed in some of the shots was a shadow cast over the stage I was shooting by the windmill vanes as it rotated. I rather liked the effect so I used the shot. Even the evening shots had varying lights in motion in the ceiling that caused some movement of the light intensity.

Normally in bright sun I use manual exposure, especially for lock down shots and always like to back off about a half stop to a whole stop for high noon light. So we do agree that the TD10 tends to wash out the color in bright sun. It must be a Sony thing.









Portions of the image get washed out while others are properly exposed, as in your dynamic range reference. Actually I have several 2/3" 3 chip broadcast cams here and they all suffer this problem. This has some rather technical explanations dealing with CCD and MOS chip technology that I don't care to get into here but the bottom line is simple- this is an area that film still has superiority over video. Maybe you recall I cut my teeth on 16mm a few decades ago so I know just a little about this first hand.


Window Violations- Yes, lots of them throughout but what I tried to do is shoot it in a way that worked for my large 110" projector screen and even though the WV is still present, in my HT, the images often fill the room all the way up to where I can reach out and put my hand behind the image, such as the Red Iceland Poppy. A bed of flowers fills from 2 ft in front of me to well behind the wall an effect I wanted to achieve. Personally, I don't worry much about WV as long as the shots are not jarring or causing headaches. Thanks for your comment on that. I think WV's are more bothersome to some people as they are watching on a smaller screen that does not fill the visual periphery.


Sharpness of the video- Remember that this is not a true 1080 x 1920 on YT because it is rendered SBS HALF. The detail and image quality are sharper on my iso rendering for Blu Ray.


I'll be reviewing the specific time references you pointed out later but wanted to just clear up any guessing as to how I shot this and what the environment lighting conditions were.


----------



## markr041

Thanks, Don.


Panasonic also overexposes in bright light - the 3D1 and the Z10000. For the former in bright light I shoot at -1 ev (indoors even -2/3 ev). For the latter I gave up on autoexposure outdoors!


The only camera I have used that is spot on outdoors in autoexposure is the Sony 5N (which also has the best dynamic range of any consumer camera for video I have seen). The Bloggie 3D actually does not overexpose as much as the TD10, whatever it's other limitations.


We need to shoot 16mm cams in tandem for the best 3D! But then someone will say 40mm is better.


----------



## relaxman

I just came back from France, worked 2 weeks with TD10, and i can say for sure, that unfortunately almost 80% of the shots needed to down the exposure 1 or 2 value with the knob. Then hold the knob to select 3D depth setting, adjust a little bit, and finally hit the 2D display button to see the actual recording in bright sunlight







So it was not easy...


I also have two HX7V cameras in video mode (for far objects), and with it i can set AE shift! For example -0.7 worked well in many situation. No overexposed aread but still auto exposure. Don't understand why a real videocamcorder not has this function..


----------



## markr041

The perplexity is worse - for the TD10 in 2D mode, you do have AE shift, not to mention shutter priority, manual wb, etc. These are shut down in 3D mode.


----------



## dwhite601

Nice video, Don. The panning and zooming was slow enough for my eyes to stay tracked in 3D. You might want to slow down the titles, however. It was hard to read "Recorded in Apr 2012". That part of the image got a bit busy and just about the time my eyes settled down on viewing the text, it was fading away. It might help to put a solid background behind the text to minimize the depth difference with the letters.


The shots of the Bee looked quite flat. Were you zoomed near max? The TD10, as I recall can zoom 10x in 3D. It might be better to limit zoom to less than 5. I expect distant objects to look flat, but with high zoom, (apparently) close objects tend to look flat as well.


As for the comparisons to 2D and 3D sharpness, can't the TD10 record 2D at 60p? If so, it might turn off the low pass filtering meant to minimize interlace flicker. I know that my Z10000 looks much sharper in 60p mode (alas, only available in 2D).


It would be _great_ if we could manually turn off 60i filtering. It was only useful for CRT displays and almost nobody watches those anymore. LCD and plasmas have their own way of dealing with interlaced video and, I suspect, don't need a softened image.


----------



## Darkside

My opinion of Bellagio Garden video:


Even though I watched the rendered YT video sbs half, the colors are awesome. I also like the I.S. knowing that Don hand-held the TD10 the whole time.


I do agree with overexposure. The TD10 has a difficult time adjusting when lighting was changed in full I.A. mode.


I also watched the majority of it again in sbs 2D mode and noticed that the right lens has a higher exposure compared to the left. I'm not sure if this is done on purpose for the 3D effect.


Thanks for sharing Don. I enjoyed it.


----------



## markr041

I do not see a difference in exposure between the two sides in general; sometimes this can happen with a light source that is on one side or another though.


----------



## Don Landis

dwhite601-


Yes, the titles were added as an afterthought and both my wife and I don't care for them. They will be replaced on my BD version but I haven't decided what they will be yet. I have editor's block on it right now as I'm in the middle of a Family Disney video with several long segments mixed with a bunch of clips, probably will be another 90 minute video. Also have started Valley of Fire which will be mostly SBS TD10's in 24p mixed with a few TD-10 clips in 3D 60i. The IO of the SBS shots there will be a range from 6" to 26" depending on the size of the scene. The Bees you commented on are about 40 ft away so they are technically outside the 3D range of the TD10. I rarely go beyond 5:1 zoom without a tripod as I'm not steady enough at my age.


In case you're interested I used an AVCHD "render as" to m2ts in SBS Half 1080 60i x 1920. The Bit rate was at 16000. Its a cleaner render for YT but that upload was 1.376 GB Took awhile to upload but I think this is much cleaner quality than my prior practice of using wmv for YT.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/22004045
> 
> 
> I do not see a difference in exposure between the two sides in general; sometimes this can happen with a light source that is on one side or another though.



Mark I have not seen that either but I can tell you that when I was experimenting with the circular polarizer, the filtering effect can never be the same for both cams as the filter is not concentric on either lens. This was an issue I had to tweak each time in post. Today, I go with ND and only use polarizer when absolutly called for due to glare and reflections. Also, my sync Lanc device cannot synchronize the manual exposure master to slave. I have to do that on each cam by eye too when shooting SBS. I think Wolfgang bought a better sync system that costs double what mine did so his may handle that. I'm waiting for his review.


----------



## dwhite601




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/22004387
> 
> 
> I rarely go beyond 5:1 zoom without a tripod as I'm not steady enough at my age.



Your video looked quite steady. I've been using a monopod, but recorded last weekend's Renfair on a tripod for the first time. I find that I'm becoming more sensitive to camera shake. Perhaps that's due to camera motion being more obvious in 3D. Or maybe it's because I'm viewing on a larger TV these days.


Recording on a tripod had one interesting advantage, my hands were occasionally free to take 3D stills. Fortunately, nobody complained about the tripod. I try to keep a low profile so people don't get annoyed with me.


----------



## Don Landis

In the past 2D world I rarely, if ever used a monopod since my cameras were normally 20-25 pounds. But since moving to the TD10 for almost all my work these days the monopod goes with me most of the time since I can hang it off my belt. It also is normally allowed in many places where using a tripod requires a permit when shooting video, NYC-Manhattan, Washington DC and some public events even here in Jacksonville. In Las Vegas I was stopped at the Stratosphere hotel when I tried to set up a tripod. As long as you are aware of the restrictions... Fortunately, in Disney, they don't mind and I've even set up my SBS bench for some presentations.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

I think that is a nice video. Don, have you done this shooting with your sbs-rig and your two TD10s in 1080 24p, or have you done it with one TD10?


Even when we shoot with the TD10 in 3D mode we can adjust the overexposure a little bit - I think the backlight can be adjusted here.


The other point that I would like to point out is that the divergence is significant in some part of the shooting - what increases the danger of ghosting especially if that is paired with high contrast. I do not know yet how far that takes place here really, since I have not seen the video on my HDTV yet.


But with both the Z10K and the TD10 we are able to mininimise that risk if we shoot with parallel axis. Can be done if we adjust the convergence with the Z10K to C99, and with the TD10 to +oo. The disadvantage is that we have to adjust that then in the postproduction for sure, but the horizontal adjustment tends to be small when we shoot with paralell axis.


----------



## MLXXX

I'm a complete amateur at photography and am enjoying reading comments of some of the very experienced people in this thread!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxman* /forum/post/22003441
> 
> 
> I just came back from France, worked 2 weeks with TD10, and i can say for sure, that unfortunately almost 80% of the shots needed to down the exposure 1 or 2 value



Overexposure is certainly a problem. Attached is a Left frame _[I used VirtualDub to move to the frame I wanted in the mt2s file; and Gimp to scale to 50% size]_ showing a startled wallaby or kangaroo. I took this at a moment's notice with the TD10 in 3D mode with automatic settings, and at around x8 zoom. The camera had had time to settle down but the patches of white fur of the marsupial are obviously overexposed.


I wouldn't normally want to tamper with a newly acquired camera but is there likely to be a hidden service menu that a user could access to reduce the default exposure level?


----------



## PaulTV

Hello All,


I've been shooting with my TD10 for 6 months - no problems really, although it does take more time and effort to realise good 3D - exposure setting is tricky as the 3D viewfinder is so dark - really need an external monitor...very togh in sunlight. I just shot some material and have found that the "Right" eye is not focussed correctly - either manual or auto. If I set the exact focus on the left stream the right is out, and if the focus is correct on the right, the left is soft. Factory reset and Auto 3D lens adjust, although finalising correctly, makes no odds - looks like a visit to Sony -


I must say I find the detail from this camera pretty good - as I'm more into softer filmic looking, less "popping" 3D animation style - more natural, but 3D all the same - I've been experimenting with slo - motion 3D and Magic Bullet Looks with some pretty good results so far.


I never have any exposure shift errors, with the right settings you only need worry if the gain kicks in during low light - watch out for the auto white tracking producing vague changes in colour balance though, a pity you can't go full manual white in 3D mode.


There's a Twixtor 3D slomo test on my blog, poor quality from youtube I'm afraid, but there's a link to a SBS mp4 within the blog - feel free to download, Twixtor does pretty well.


Paul


----------



## Don Landis

Wolfgang- The Bellagio videos (both) were done with a single TD10 in IA mode all the way! Gardens was all handheld and the Fountains made use of a monopod. When it comes to 3D parallax, I find that over engineering this during the shoot leeds to lost opportunity with the shot, especially with documentary and event shooting. In the Gardens video, the the shot picks were done to eliminate anything I saw that went out of focus, extreme loss of detail due to overexposure in a _key part_ of the shot, or a person getting in the way too close. When I shoot, I like to feel "I have the shot" and worry about the technical stuff later. I rely on the camera's auto capability in most of my run and gun shooting. The most frequent use of manual is, when I have the time, to put exposure in manual. Normally this is done with my SBS shooting with the twin cameras. By its physical nature, this SBS system does not permit run and gun shooting, yet often I have far more shooting locations to do than time allotted. Therefore I make compromises in precise engineering the shot here as well.


Also the clips in the Gardens and Fountains videos were not adjusted in post for color correction, and contrast/brightness. What you see there are clips right from the camera, that is what the TD10 does in full auto mode I.A.


Today, in viewing 3D on either my projector or my Vizio 32" screens, I rarely see ghosting. However, when I do see it it frequently is from a low budget movies or when I decided to put the TD10m in manual 3D mode and monkey around with the 3D parallax control.

I find it better to make sure the auto calibrate is working just before a shoot and then rely on it to make the shots work. This gives me the freedom to just shoot away and focus my attention to looking for unique shot opportunities. In SBS shooting with wide IA, the story is a bit different in that here, I pick my IA based on the stage sizer and near objects in the shot, then I tweak the horizontal offset in post after keyframing a setting with auto correct. I set the horizontal offset so that the clip does not punch my vision around and wear me out while viewing. It must be comfortable to watch along side the adjacent shots. Wide IA is far more work to get right in post than a single TD10 in auto mode. Now that you are getting into this, you will discover the work in edit increasing ten fold!


----------



## Don Landis

Sound recording problems with the TD10-


This is a special problem that will affect only those who choose to monitor voice recordings with the earphone jack on the camera.


There is about a half second delay of the sound which can make monitoring very difficult to impossible. Today I tried to use the TD10 to record my own readings for voice over work for a project and it nearly drove me nuts! Finally I gave up and got out my older HDR SR12 a hard drive HD camcorder that I haven't used since buying the TD10. It has no delay at all. I had a nice DAT recorder for this purpose but sold it a long time ago. The only problem with all these consumer camcorders is that have an AGC that is always on. I bet the Z10k or the pro version of the TD10 has no AGC with their pro audio inputs but how about the delay on the monitor?


----------



## PaulTV

I was surprised at how good the TD10, set to "low level" recording fed with a Sony ECM55 (sent to both channels) was.


I had to use the TD10 for an interview, and I can percieve almost no agc effects at all - normally I use my EX1 or Tascam DR100, but I agree, the delay for monitoring is absolutely ridiculous!


Paul


----------



## MLXXX




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markr041* /forum/post/22002732
> 
> 
> Don has posted, appropriately, a video he made using the TD10 in the Youtube Home Video thread. Those of you interested in the TD10 should view it to see how the camera performs run n' gun:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 5. The 3D was nice, but, and this is a big but: the many close-up flower shots of course had pop-out but almost all had severe window violations - the objects in front of the frame were almost always cut off at the bottom of the window. The only one that worked well - no wv - was the oval with shoe-pair centered and in front of the frame, since there is no stem support in view that is cut off. But in one shot, the camera moves towards the shoe/oval and slightly cuts off the bottom of the oval that is in front of the window (2:54), so another wv. Looking at flowers in front of the window with their stems cut off by the window frame results in headaches - it violates the physics the eye is used to. Many shots like this. The penultimate close-up of the framed picture (not the last one, which is very nice) also has severe wv.
> 
> 
> I did not get a headache, and I enjoyed the video - the color overall and the third dimension were impressive. A fun tour.



A pleasing video, of inherently delightful scenes, enhanced by Don Landis's experienced shooting and editing. To think this quality of 3D video can be achieved with a consumer camcorder, is amazing.


As a member of the "YouTube audience', I found the tempo restful and soothing. (And well suited to 24fps.) [I downloaded the file first, so as to be able to watch it smoothly, in its entirety.]


In my opinion the TD10 has a pleasing default 3D "volume". The interaxial lens separation although somewhat less than average human adult interocular distance seems, subjectively, to work very well. (It's a much more natural effect than what I have obtained with my Fujifilm FinePix REAL 3D W3 camera, which so often exaggerates the 3D effect.)


In the quote above, I have left in markr041's comments about window violations as to me this was the only aspect of the video that caused me any real concern. (The overexposure from time time didn't particularly worry me.)


Watching a 50" plasma TV, I found a fleeting closeup view of flowers ok for my vision. However when the camera lingered on a close up view of the flowers and at the same time showed much more distant flowers without anything to draw my attention to the middle of the scene; my brain became aware of something "not quite right" at the left and right edges, and my vision felt a little uncomfortable.


I would think that to release this type of video for general exhibition some sort of processing would be desirable to reduce the strength of the 3D for some of the closeups of the flowers, or at least to reduce the wv.


As Don has indicated, the existing level of wv could be less noticeable if viewing a large projection screen.


A very enjoyable video to watch!


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Yes, the workload increases significantly if you work with the sbs-rig - that starts with the import and pairing of the single files (where I see that it seems to be necessary to pair every clip manually in a single way). And even with the automatic you still have to adjust convergence.


But to come back to shoot with one TD10: I have seen some ghosting here, both with the Z10K but also with the TD10. The good old rule that this comes from high disparity and high contrast - well that is something that I see here too. And I have seen a lot of footage from different people during the last 3Dimensionale in Vienna - Ghosting took place for the cases only wher you had the combination of high disparty and high contrast. So I come up more and more to the conclusion that to shoot wit parallel axis offers you more flexiblity in the postproduction, and help to avoid ghosting. That does not touch the feeling of shooting, since the only adjustment that I think about is to adjust the concergence to +oo before I start to shoot.


For the luminance issue - maybe we have to take more care about that. Since the TD10 misses the beloved zebra functionality, the bring down the lunimance could be one of the major adjustments one has to do when working with the TD10.


----------



## Don Landis

WV- I think it is near impossible to free every scene of window violations unless you restrict your shooting to a simple floating object in the center of a flat single colored wall. Or, you push every thing in the shot behind the screen plane that touches the screen's edges. If I shot that way, I think I would only achieve .001% of the shot picks for my edit, maybe less! So, as I stated before, as long as the video isn't jarring and I get general over all comments that the video is pleasing to watch, I'll accept WV here and there when I need to present a closeup.


Exposure- If I may let me comment on the wallaby posted by MLXX. I gather that this is a rare experience to capture these animals in the wild so I generally forgive most imperfections in technical photography in the interest of the fact he got the shot.

But the shot itself, if he had reduced the exposure to pop all the detail in the wallaby's white fur, he may have pushed the background so dark that the detail of where this animal was would be lost, i.e. a wallaby against a slightly textured black background as underexposed.

I ran into this many times in shooting advertising and the general rule was, go for the subject and allow the background to blow out. If time permitted, shoot the background again with same camera position properly exposed and then do an additive blend in post to combine the two shots with a dynamic matte. This can produce a perfectly exposed shot and in advertising we generally have the budget for such time consuming corrections unless deadlines overrule. If the shot was done in efp or staged, we would have time to setup lights and blast the subject with enough light to match the luminance a color temperature. But all this stuff is professional video, not what most of us are doing today.


In the TD10, you can set the camera to do a spot exposure and focus by touching the screen. This setting will hold if you do it in 2D mode and then switch to 3D.


----------



## Joseph Clark

I'm generally OK with edge violations. They usually don't bother me, unless they call attention to themselves dramatically. That's sacrilegious to some, but it's a growing sentiment.


James Cameron puts it this way: "There is no screen." By that, I think he means that 3D space in a movie should not be constrained in almost any way by the edges of the frame. It should be experienced as we experience things in real life. He also suggests being as close to the display as you can get, in which case the edges of the frame begin to get lost in your peripheral vision. In an interview/Q&A about 3D, he says that 3D pundits are wrong when they say that edge violations (window violations) should never be allowed. He suggests that creative freedom in 3D movie making is not possible without them (I tend to agree), and that the only exception is when an object flies out of the frame into the room. He encourages breaking this "3D rule" as frequently as possible. Edge violations are everywhere in Avatar, and in Scorsese's Hugo.


For the last few months, I've avoided them by setting my JVC TD1 manually. This works well much of the time, but there are instances when it hurts the shot. By default, the JVC "floats" the convergence point (what appears at the screen plane), setting it differently as the subject matter changes in a pan or tilt. Overall, I think this yields good results, and it usually involves fewer instances of ghosting than setting convergence manually. Some of the shots that elicit the most powerful positive responses from viewers of my 3D are ones in which there are multiple edge violations. The average person doesn't know and, I suspect, wouldn't care if they did.


I'm very careful to avoid edge violations in macro photography (closeups of flowers, insects, etc.), but in wide shots and most medium shots, it's not something that will make me lose any sleep. I'm not set hard and fast in this position, but that's the way I'm leaning right now.


----------



## dwhite601




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/22008097
> 
> 
> By default, the JVC "floats" the convergence point (what appears at the screen plane), setting it differently as the subject matter changes in a pan or tilt. Overall, I think this yields good results, and it usually involves fewer instances of ghosting than setting convergence manually.



I learned early that I could trust the TD1's auto convergence which is good because it's viewfinder, in 3D mode, is difficult to see outdoors.


I don't mind edge violations either. It's OK for objects to appear in negative space (front of the screen) as long as they are still close to the screen.


The goal is to avoid reminding the viewer that they are watching a 3D 'movie'. They should be totally absorbed by the story, event, etc. Any technique that achieves this is good.


----------



## Joseph Clark

A friend of mine just picked up that $500 Sony TD10 at Best Buy. He's going to use it in his high school media program. He couldn't pass up that price.







He just added a couple of 55" LG passive LCD displays recently. I took a few minutes of some of my footage over the other day, and you could feel the level of excitement that the experience of watching 3D created with those who viewed it. You could almost see the wheels of possibility turning.







When the school year ends, I'll finally get a chance to try the TD10 first hand, since he'll loan it to me this summer. And I may be back here if he has questions I can't answer about its operation.


----------



## markr041

Audio:


1. The Z10000 has zero latency (tested) from the headphone port (no audio lag) and has complete manual control over audio (and agc if you want it) as well as a no compression option (PCM) along with Dolby 2 and 5.1.


2. I have found the low microphone setting of the TD10, which still has AGC, to yield very good audio, with little pumping. In contrast, the Panasonic 3D1, which has good mics, pumps up all sounds to maximum levels.


WV:


1. Let's be clear - it is not a wv to have negative parallax - an object in front of the window. The wv occurs if that object is cut off by the frame, violating physics (seems to be in front and not in front). Popouts can have no wv.


2. Yes, some wv's are innocuous, but some are distracting. In Hugo and Avatar, there are mv's but they are brief, usually occurring for a moment with the camera moving. You can even have a person walk across the screen in front of the window and cut off, and it is not bothersome, because it is brief. When the main, centered large subject is in front of the screen for the whole shot and is cut off, that is not ignorable and can make some sick. I do not think there is anything like that in Avatar or Hugo (please!).


"James Cameron puts it this way: "There is no screen." By that, I think he means that 3D space in a movie should not be constrained in almost any way by the edges of the frame. It should be experienced as we experience things in real life."

That is not giving license to wv's - the opposite: A windows violation destroys the illusion because it violates real life - it is simply impossible to have something in front of a window and also cut off by the window frame; it calls attention to the frame as well as discombobulates the brain.


3. Some people are more sensitive than others to mv's. If your viewer does not know what they are, he or she can still get a headache, because it directly affects the brain. And, yes, people constantly harping about wv's can be annoying - the wv police!










4. The Panasonic 3D1 has a wv indicator that works really well. It detects wv's occurring at the edge (or center) of the frame and gives a warning. I sometimes say to myself - warning, you are wrong - only to find when I review the shot there is a troubling wv I did not catch. For maximum pop-out with no wv, you can move back until the symbol disappears.


----------



## Joseph Clark

I don't mean to put words into James Cameron's mouth. The "real life" comment was my interpretation, not a direct Cameron quote. As for giving license to edge violations, I don't think there's any doubt that Cameron is OK with them in his own 3D film-making. I'm trying to find the clip, if anyone's interested.


That said, I think it's clear from both Avatar and Hugo that the "violations" these film-makers find acceptable are those things happening primarily in the periphery. I think just about everyone is in agreement that chopping up your main subject with a frame edge is not good 3D.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/22009070
> 
> 
> I don't mean to put words into James Cameron's mouth. The "real life" comment was my interpretation, not a direct Cameron quote. As for giving license to edge violations, I don't think there's any doubt that Cameron is OK with them in his own 3D film-making. I'm trying to find the clip, if anyone's interested.
> 
> 
> That said, I think it's clear from both Avatar and Hugo that the "violations" these film-makers find acceptable are those things happening primarily in the periphery. I think just about everyone is in agreement that chopping up your main subject with a frame edge is not good 3D.



In Cameron's 3D version of Titanic there is a scene during the sequence when the ship is sinking that the camera looks directly over the railing and downward. The railing is blurred and in your face as the camera pans down. Is this what you are talking about?


----------



## Don Landis

Joe- I guess this is one area that James Cameron and I agree about WV. Frankly, anyone who professes that rule be never broken, likely does not shoot and if they do breaks their own rule.










I also agree that in 3D there is no screen surface. BUT, there is always a screen edge and this is where the w.v. gets pinched back to the screen frame plane.


I think in my Gardens video, my intentional shots of the _bed_ of flowers that fills the screen width is what would be the most egregious WV violation according to the _3D rules of Mark_. But I wanted it that way and held it on the screen to emphasize the look of what I did see. The look I get on my large screen is that my room is filled with a bed of flowers from just in front of me all the way through and well beyond the screen. Maybe its just my vision but I don't have brain flips and neither does my wife over it. Yes, it also does violate the rule that the camera should be invisible to the story, but inn the Gardens video the point is to display extremes of 3D. I don't always do that. On a smaller screen, the same effect in that I see the bed of flowers spilling out of a bezel frame of the Vizio. Being only 32" screen it does not fill the room but is like water pouring out of a rectangular opening from the volume behind the Vizio.


AGC in the TD10- yesterday I measured the AGC recovery time and it was the same for both normal and low volume setting for the TD10. It takes about 4-5- seconds to come to full gain and full quieting attack takes about a tenth of a second. To kill the pumping action I just spoke a single word ahead of my sentence with each take. I'm using an RE20 traditional studio mic with a sure M367 preamp feeding a balun into the camcorder's ministereo jack. Mark- thanks for the report on latency of the Panasonic Z10k. That camera is looking really good on my wish list but I'm still throwing money at my editing computer to afford one now. Maybe next year...


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Whatever we do - we should be aware that we are able to put significant stress on the eyes of the people who view our products.


Good 3D productions will minimize the 3D stress and - also important - they work with parallel axis during shooting. If you find the time, have a look to the Die Drei Musketiere
http://www.amazon.de/Die-drei-Musket...6722803&sr=8-1 


then you see wonderfull and really great 3D. The parallaxis is always very very small, but the depth brackets are wonderfull - and no ghosting at all takes place. The movie has been generated by some of the team members of Avatar. I am not sure if it has now been published in the States yet, since it was produced in Europe. But it is the best 3D production that I have seen in the last time, in terms of 3D.


From that side I tend to trust he convergence automatism of both the TD-10 an the Z10K not really - and tend to use parallel axis and adjust the convergence in the postproduction. What I understand more and more that this is best practice.


----------



## Don Landis

New Topic: Correcting the slightly washed out low saturation of the TD10 in Vegas Pro


Here are two images, shot in 3D mode full IA auto. (Left only)

The first one is camera original while the second has a subtle color correction added.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/22010097
> 
> 
> Whatever we do - we should be aware that we are able to put significant stress on the eyes of the people who view our products.
> 
> 
> Good 3D productions will minimize the 3D stress and - also important - they work with parallel axis during shooting. If you find the time, have a look to the Die Drei Musketiere
> http://www.amazon.de/Die-drei-Musket...6722803&sr=8-1
> 
> 
> then you see wonderfull and really great 3D. The parallaxis is always very very small, but the depth brackets are wonderfull - and no ghosting at all takes place. The movie has been generated by some of the team members of Avatar. I am not sure if it has now been published in the States yet, since it was produced in Europe. But it is the best 3D production that I have seen in the last time, in terms of 3D.
> 
> 
> From that side I tend to trust he convergence automatism of both the TD-10 an the Z10K not really - and tend to use parallel axis and adjust the convergence in the postproduction. What I understand more and more that this is best practice.



It's been out here since at least February. I have this in my collection. It's OK but not best of breed, IMO.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

And what is best of breed, to your opinion?


----------



## Don Landis

debatable opinion for another forum. ( has nothing to do with the TD10 anyway)


----------



## Frank

I took one of my TD10s outside and shot this quick video of some bears playing in my yard. My other TD10 is currently in Utah somewhere being used by my daughter and son in law.




 video of bears at play[/URL]


----------



## Maxchance

I finally getting around to editing my HDR-TD10 footage.


I am considering an "all in one" desktop to do the editing, due to space restraints and the fact that I may need to be portable.


Can one of the experts here recommend a good all in one computer with the best hardware to get the editing done quickly and effectively. I been looking at some of the HP and Lenovo all in ones. I am not sure if a "touch" screen is necessary or useful? I am only planning on editing clips and sending them out to clients for PR, etc.


Thanks in advance.


W.


----------



## Darkside

I have a 21.5" Sony all-in-one i3. It's decent, but lacking speed for editing. If you can afford it, go for an i7 whichever brand. I never use the touchscreen, but my kids use it to draw fun stuff.


----------



## Darkside




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/22010117
> 
> 
> Correcting the slightly washed out low saturation of the TD10 in Vegas Pro
> 
> 
> Here are two images, shot in 3D mode full IA auto. (Left only)
> 
> The first one is camera original while the second has a subtle color correction added.



Color correction looks good. What settings in Vegas did you use to correct it?


----------



## relaxman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/22007895
> 
> 
> you can set the camera to do a spot exposure and focus by touching the screen. This setting will hold if you do it in 2D mode and then switch to 3D.



I tried that, but this setting remain manual. So i can set manual exposure in 3D mode also and down the dial a little. Why is this method better?

I need a spot mode with auto exposure. Can't be? This was the "trick" from what i read here in the past and somebody sayed this is good, and hope that it will not change with the next firmware? Or is there other tricks?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Darkside* /forum/post/22012391
> 
> 
> Color correction looks good. What settings in Vegas did you use to correct it?



I used the regular color correction effect and applied it to the timeline. A primary concern was the glass globe fish bowl. Live it looked quite clear and had the sparkle. The TD10 tends to make glass like this look frosted, dirty, and dull. As you can see, some very subtle correction can pop the sparkle and clarity back into the glass.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Why is this method better?



I wouldn't say it's better, just an alternative. Both are manual, one you select which part of the image you want to allow the camera to properly set the exposure to and the other you would dial in that same region. The spot exposure is kind of a hybrid between the auto and complete manual with the knob. In the menu you can also select whether the spot applies to exposure, focus, or both. Personally, I still prefer the manual dial. I start with IA in a shoot and if I don't like what I'm getting I use the knob and switch to manual for the exposure dial in.


----------



## Maxchance




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Darkside* /forum/post/22012367
> 
> 
> I have a 21.5" Sony all-in-one i3. It's decent, but lacking speed for editing. If you can afford it, go for an i7 whichever brand. I never use the touchscreen, but my kids use it to draw fun stuff.



Thanks. Sounds like the i7 and a top of the line video card is the way to go.


W.


----------



## relaxman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/22014484
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say it's better, just an alternative.



But you really use this way?

I mean it's far quicker hit the knob, set the exposure, that switch the cam to 2D mode, set the spot exposure, and go back to 3D mode.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxman* /forum/post/22014618
> 
> *But you really use this way?*
> 
> I mean it's far quicker hit the knob, set the exposure, that switch the cam to 2D mode, set the spot exposure, and go back to 3D mode.



Did you read the last two sentences in my post? Joe Clark, here has been the only one I recall who prefers the spot adjustments on his JVC.


----------



## Joseph Clark

The clips I link to in this post were all shot with the area select feature on my JVC. If a comparable adjustment is possible with the TD10, I recommend Sony users check it out, even if it adds some time to shot setup. (I realize this won't always be possible, but it is for the kind of shooting I do.) Since I started using it on my JVC, I've been much happier with the results.


The JVC has full manual control of aperture and shutter speed in 3D, but no zebra function. While it's certainly not foolproof, "area select" for exposure and focus in 3D mode has yielded some outstanding results. There's no way I can achieve anything close to this in full auto mode, and using area select typically adds only 3 or 4 seconds to the shot. Even if it takes longer on the Sony, I suspect it would be worth it.


These are raw JVC TD1 clips, shot using area select (touch the screen to set the spot for exposure and focus):

The Bulb Garden in Spring. 

More from the Bulb Garden. 

The Dwarf Conifer Garden. 

The Carver Garden. 

More Carver Garden. 


These clips may need convergence correction, but I doubt I'll have to adjust exposure or color at all. I rely on the area select feature constantly.


----------



## MLXXX




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/22007895
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Exposure- If I may let me comment on the wallaby posted by MLXX. ...
> 
> 
> But the shot itself, if he had reduced the exposure to pop all the detail in the wallaby's white fur, he may have pushed the background so dark that the detail of where this animal was would be lost, i.e. a wallaby against a slightly textured black background as underexposed.
> 
> 
> I ran into this many times in shooting advertising and the general rule was, go for the subject and allow the background to blow out. If time permitted, shoot the background again with same camera position properly exposed and then do an additive blend in post to combine the two shots with a dynamic matte. ...
> 
> 
> In the TD10, you can set the camera to do a spot exposure and focus by touching the screen. This setting will hold if you do it in 2D mode and then switch to 3D.



Thanks Don, yes that general rule about shooting for the subject makes a lot of sense.

_____


Re exposure adjustments while shooting, I'm finding it convenient in 3D mode to set the adjustment knob at the front of the camera for manual _exposure_ at the beginning of the shoot. I then press the button in the centre of the knob to toggle to auto. Manual exposure is then just a button push away.


(If there's to be a firmware update for this camera, I'd be opting for AE shift to be available in 3D mode.)


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Re exposure adjustments while shooting, I'm finding it convenient in 3D mode to set the adjustment knob at the front of the camera for manual exposure at the beginning of the shoot. I then press the button in the centre of the knob to toggle to auto. Manual exposure is then just a button push away.



Yes! My SOP as well. But, if in a hurry I still trust the IA to give me a great compromise in the interest of gaining more quantity with acceptable quality.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Don,


My friend ended up getting 2 TD10s from a local Best Buy. He has a couple of 55" LG passive displays in his media program, but he wants something smaller for home - something 32" or so. I can't recall the size and make of the passive display you use. Is it a Vizio?


BTW, he called me twice today to rave over the TD10. He used it to shoot a special program at the school, and he was extremely excited with the results. He's actually been doing 3D longer than I have, but it was anaglyph and mostly SD, so he's psyched to be able to shoot 1080/full color 3D. I wouldn't be surprised to see him around here before long.


----------



## Don Landis

Yes. It's a 32" Vizio. I really like it for my edit workstation as my 2nd monitor. I don't like the nag screens and that I have to constantly put it back to 3D all the time. When it believes I need a break from 3D it switches to 2D. But other than that it is a feature loaded tool and was under $500 at Walmart.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Thanks, Don. I'll let my friend know.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/22027908
> 
> 
> Yes. It's a 32" Vizio. I really like it for my edit workstation as my 2nd monitor. I don't like the nag screens and that I have to constantly put it back to 3D all the time. When it believes I need a break from 3D it switches to 2D. But other than that it is a feature loaded tool and was under $500 at Walmart.



This is the exact same 3DTV I use as my office computer monitor.

I watch a lot of 3D on it and monitor Vegas edits with it and I have never, ever used the 3D mode.

I just output everything in line interleaved mode and it works perfectly every time.


P.S. In case you're interested, I shot this short video of the Chevy Volt I bought my wife for her birthday. Since she's in Germany I get to drive it.












 Volt in 3D[/URL]


----------



## Don Landis

Off Topic-

Pretty nice, Frank. Does the Volt use gasoline as a backup?


I did some math based on your test run and your Volt costs about 1/3 to run as my Camry Hybrid, but I had to use numbers for 35mph - 40 mph which is what it looked like you were driving. Our electric is 13.5 cents per KWH and gas is about 3.55 here. Do you know what the kwh per mile is for 65mph interstate? At 70 mph I do about 40mpg average and at 35 it is around 50 mpg but usually 35 means start and stop around town so we only average 33mpg around town.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/22029376
> 
> 
> Off Topic-
> 
> Pretty nice, Frank. Does the Volt use gasoline as a backup?
> 
> 
> I did some math based on your test run and your Volt costs about 1/3 to run as my Camry Hybrid, but I had to use numbers for 35mph - 40 mph which is what it looked like you were driving. Our electric is 13.5 cents per KWH and gas is about 3.55 here. Do you know what the kwh per mile is for 65mph interstate? At 70 mph I do about 40mpg average and at 35 it is around 50 mpg but usually 35 means start and stop around town so we only average 33mpg around town.



It has a gasoline engine but I've never heard it run in the time I've been driving it.

It has about a 9 gallon tank I believe.

It seems to get around 4.5 miles per KWH at highway speed and about 5.0 average in stop and go around town.

The worst equivalent MPG I've calculated for it so far is 155 miles per gallon and at least 200 MPG around town.

This is if I charge it during the day when I pay closer to 10 cents/KWH vs 7 cents overnight.


----------



## NorthTV

Well since we are off topic anyway - that Volt, and even the Hybrid Camry, sure look nice at the gas pump this week. Here on the West Coast $4.50 per gallon gasoline is already here - it jumped 4 cents overnight from just yesterday to today. (A couple of refineries in California are down for maintenance and one in Washington is still out from a previous fire - so it is all supply and demand as the barrel price for crude oil has actually dropped at the same time that gasoline prices have risen here out West.)


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well since we are off topic anyway - that Volt, and even the Hybrid Camry, sure look nice at the gas pump this week. Here on the West Coast $4.50 per gallon gasoline is already here - it jumped 4 cents overnight from just yesterday to today. (A couple of refineries in California are down for maintenance and one in Washington is still out from a previous fire - so it is all supply and demand as the barrel price for crude oil has actually dropped at the same time that gasoline prices have risen here out West.)



Gas in Florida has dropped for the past two weeks. Now below $3.50 I'm in Tampa today and I saw it was 3.48. US demand has fallen for the past 3 years as we keep finding new reserves. You are correct that the new problem now is refinery capacity.


I was planning on shooting some generic video of sunsets at Clearwater Beach here but the weather sucks. I brought my 1 meter stereo base bench for the sunset shot. I'm here with my wife who is at a Wells Fargo internal meeting for two days. Saturday, I plan to go to Hollywood Studios At Disney. I heard the Star Wars convention is there. Hopefully I'll find some opportunity to shoot something then. With the weather so bad, I think I'll go to see the Avengers3D this afternoon. Will check out the horizon again after the movie but I think the T storms will not cooperate. Wife will be in meetings until 10PM, so maybe another movie in the evening.


----------



## dclark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NorthTV* /forum/post/22032294
> 
> 
> Well since we are off topic anyway - that Volt, and even the Hybrid Camry, sure look nice at the gas pump this week. Here on the West Coast $4.50 per gallon gasoline is already here - it jumped 4 cents overnight from just yesterday to today. (A couple of refineries in California are down for maintenance and one in Washington is still out from a previous fire - so it is all supply and demand as the barrel price for crude oil has actually dropped at the same time that gasoline prices have risen here out West.)



Hybrids still use gas and have extra mechanical/electrical crap to fail. Rather than tolerate the crappy performance of a hybrid, we have a '03 jetta tdi wagon 5sp. I put larger Bosio injectors, different ecu tuning, vr6 clutch, it has enough power to spin the tires in 2nd gear, torque that pushes you back in your seat yet still can get 55mph. Just the other day, wife went 837 miles on one tank! I could go from San Francisco to Miami and have to stop maybe 3x for fuel, maybe just twice.

Thread relevent- I show some video in the jetta today while wife drove, wanted to see how well it does with fast action stuff like the side of the road as we traveled.


----------



## Frank




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dclark* /forum/post/22034655
> 
> 
> Hybrids still use gas and have extra mechanical/electrical crap to fail. Rather than tolerate the crappy performance of a hybrid, we have a '03 jetta tdi wagon 5sp. I put larger Bosio injectors, different ecu tuning, vr6 clutch, it has enough power to spin the tires in 2nd gear, torque that pushes you back in your seat yet still can get 55mph. Just the other day, wife went 837 miles on one tank! I could go from San Francisco to Miami and have to stop maybe 3x for fuel, maybe just twice.
> 
> Thread relevent- I show some video in the jetta today while wife drove, wanted to see how well it does with fast action stuff like the side of the road as we traveled.



Too bad diesel isn't 6 cents a gallon like it was when I was pumping gas as a kid.


----------



## Don Landis

Looks like I might get lucky. Clearwater Beach has clear sky's as far as I can see.


----------



## Powerplay4

I bought a TD10 this week. Soon I will send the links of my Youtube videos in 3D.


Thank you!

Milton


----------



## NorthTV

RE: Good quality multi-LED light for TD10.



I see several have recommended using a good or high quality multi LED light for the TD10. BB has two economical models available but the review suggest they are only good for 5-10 feet distance. On the other hand the company named after a South American River has a similar priced unit which looks like it will give twice the light but is a no name brand and probably does not have a dimmer feature. (LED Digital Video Light of 28 LEDs 6500k and made for the Sony Hdr-ax2000.) What are you using with your HD10 for LED video lighting and are you happy with it? I would like to find a unit that could reach out at least 15-20 feet and have a dimmer feature.


----------



## Don Landis

I actually have three lights to optimize size/weight vs. power.


The big boy for the TD10 is the Neewer CN-160 which has 160 LED lights, dimmer, and uses multiple power sources.


The one I carry most of the time is the Lumi Bank 48 LED rechargeable with dimmer.

I bought this at NAB booth on impulse.


The little TD20 hot shoe powered Sony light HVL-HL1 is pretty useless for everything critical but it can do in a pinch. If I feel I may need something the last minute to get a shot where otherwise I couldn't shoot this will be a good backup in my pocket. This is an example where I had to resort to this because the lighting was way too dark to shoot anything in this room, glad I had the HL1 in my pocket. The main problem with this little light is the camera body casts a shadow as the light mounts too far back to get full frame lighting. If you are aware of this you can work around it to a degree. Not ideal but otherwise I would not have had the shot.


After that experience, I decided to add a cold mounting shoe near the front of my camera that works well for both lighting and mounting a professional shotgun mic too.


----------



## Powerplay4

Soon even today, so I end up uploading to Youtube, I'll post two links to two videos I did with the TD10 and edited with Vegas 11.


----------



## Powerplay4

As I had promised this is my second video done in 3D with the TD10 camcorder and edited with Sony Vegas Pro 11, available on Youtube:






If you want to download this video in Blu-ray 3D MVC (ISO file) without compression of Youtube, follow the links:
http://netload.in/dateiUntPs2w7jL/Ja....part1.rar.htm 
http://netload.in/dateiA3QEchkshF/Ja....part2.rar.htm 
http://netload.in/dateiWcM8sUaF4g/Ja....part3.rar.htm 
http://netload.in/dateilgUepdPK41/Ja....part4.rar.htm 


Thanks

Milton


--------------

My channel on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/play4power


----------



## Don Landis

Very nice work there, Milton. What slide table or dolly rig did you use on some of those shots?


----------



## Wolfgang S.

I think it is a nice video - well done.


Just one technical comment and I hope you allow me to say that: the TD10 has a convergence contro - but that is a difficult point also with the fixed IO. If you shoot with convergence and adjust then the footage in Vegas, that everything is behind the zero window, this is one possible way to handle convergence. But there is the danger that the total disparity becomes too high in the final video. Here in this case I see something about 4.2% disparity, of the width of the monitor. There is a rule that it should not go beyond 2.5 or 3 or maybe 3.5% in the final video. The lower the better, since that means less stress for the audience, and reduces the danger of ghosting. Even if we have to be aware that this limit is not a hardfact limit, it depends from the perception of different people where they feel that it becomes stress to them. But it is just another expression of the 70-minute rule.


With the TD10, you have two possibilities to improve that to bring the disparity down: either you adjust the convergence to a middle point or - in extreme - the the farpoint. Especially if the depth bracket is as high as it is here. If you do then the horizontal adjustment in Vegas, total dispartiy should be lower.


The other possibility, especially if the depth bracket is large as it is here, would be to shoot with the TD10 with parallel axis - for the TD10 you can do that when you adjust the convergence to "+oo". For sure you have to make the horizontal adjustment in Vegas then because everything would be in front of the zero window, but with parallel shooting you can up with much smaller disparities even if this method has the disadvantage that you have to crop your footage more compared with the first method.


But as said, that is a technical aspect. I like the video and think it is well done. I know from own - painfull - experiences with my TD10, that the control of the disparity is an intesting learning point also for compact cameras like the TD10 or the Z10K.


----------



## Powerplay4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis* /forum/post/22082537
> 
> 
> Very nice work there, Milton. What slide table or dolly rig did you use on some of those shots?



Don, the slider is Konova Slider ( http://www.konovaphoto.com/ ).


Thanks,

Milton


----------



## markr041

I really appreciate it when people post their videos of interesting subjects and that show skill, like here.


But, let me start by saying that I tend to dislike videos that are essentially a series of static shots - like a slide show. Here, there is no action except for moving water and slighly moving plants in the wind. And the moving (slider) camera gets tiresome - moving the camera the same way shot after shot does not make the video more interesting or make up for a lack of really anything going on. But that's me. On to 3D issues, associated both with the camera and the technique.


This is typical of a first attempt at 3D from someone who is obviously skilled at video in 2D - the shots are well-composed and exposed, but:


1. The vista shots have a convergence problem for distant objects, and hardly have any interesting 3D. These type of shots are to be avoided with small-io 3D cameras like the TD10. There is nothing that gives a strong sense of depth in these shots. As brief set-up shots (for some interesting action up close) they are useful, but not as main subjects for 3D, unless much wider io is employed or some closer-up objects are included in the shots to convey depth. And even then...


2. The indoor plant shots are shot like in 2D - wth a dongle (close foliage that frames the image). That is is effective in 2D, but here the dongles are mostly violating the window (wv) and are distracting. Dongles do not work in 3D unless a lot of care is taken. Many of the subject plant leaves also cause wv - stick out of the frame and cut off. And there are no attempts to play with 3D, to purposely get a feeling of depth by emphasizing different layers.


3. The indoor shots show how in dimmer light the TD10 lacks color saturation. Green is a real weakness of the TD10. I do not have a remedy for this. But green plant pictures are not the forte of this camera.


4. The length of each individual shot is about right - in 3D one needs a little more time. But the moving camera makes it more difficult for the viewer to exploit the 3D by looking around the frame. Again, sliders are effective in 2D but are less desirable in 3D, though a moving camera can be effective used sparingly.


----------



## Don Landis

Thanks, Milton. I liked the look you did with the slider. You may have read in the other thread about my use of the igus system for my wide stereo base rig. This is essentially a slider system that I doubled up to make a good rig for ultra stereobase shooting. I haven't tried the slider assembly yet but your video inspires me to try some 3D experiments with a single TD10. Thanks for the inspiration.


BTW- I saw the Konova rig at NAB. Its a nice system but a bit too much for me to carry around on my travels. The igus slider is much more compact so I will give it a try next time.


----------



## MLXXX




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Powerplay4* /forum/post/22082290
> 
> 
> As I had promised this is my second video done in 3D with the TD10 camcorder and edited with Sony Vegas Pro 11, available on Youtube:



Hi Powerplay4,

a pleasant and relaxing video to watch. Thank you for uploading it.


----------



## 3dPCH

New owner here of a Best Buy blow-out HDR-TD10. I apologize in advance for violating accepted forum etiquette by not searching out each individual answer (I've made it through about 15 of the 45+ pages on this thread). But as a newbie, I though it might be useful to collect all the testing and research done to this point by the experts on this thread into one post so that I and others might get the most out of owning this camera. I recently went to my local big-box store and did a simple plug-and-play (3D video mode, HDMI) test into a couple 3d TV's on display. In a Sharp I saw a disappointing amount of ghosting (for an active shutter glass system), but good 3D; on one LG (passive glasses) I saw no ghosting , but a noticeable problem rendering correct depth on parts of the display (same for the in-store demo video); I went to another LG and the depth rendered correctly, picture was great, some motion lines. I don't currently own a 3D-capable display. Some of the topics previously discussed here (and which would be great for someone to summarize):


Are we seeing the full resolution when displaying 3D video directly from the TD10 via the HDMI-out port into the TV, and if not, is it significant?


Are you losing any data by not using PMB 1st to download the raw video onto your computer before using a video editor (again, is it significant)?


Are there any new software/editing options that make it easier to get TD10 video converted for Blu-Ray disc burning at a resolution and frame rate and time investment that makes it worthwhile. (i.e., is it still for experts only?)


Are there any particular 3D TV specs I should look for to maximize the quality of TD10 output with minimal editing?


What is the easiest display method- using a computer hooked to the TV thru a video editor?; burn a DVD/Blu-Ray?; a mass media storage device that the TV recognizes?; HDMI-out from the camera? (apologies for the general nature of all these questions).

Comments (or not) on one or all of these topics appreciated.


Phil

Los Angeles


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3dPCH* /forum/post/22094914
> 
> 
> In a Sharp I saw a disappointing amount of ghosting (for an active shutter glass system), but good 3D; on one LG (passive glasses) I saw no ghosting , but a noticeable problem rendering correct depth on parts of the display (same for the in-store demo video); I went to another LG and the depth rendered correctly, picture was great, some motion lines.



Ghosting derives from a not perfect separation of the Sharp or LG. Both, active and passive systems, are sensible for ghosting (at least I have seen on both systems more or less significant ghosting). The comparison of the Sharp and the LG for ghosting would be valid only, if it has been the same footage that you have seen. Without that I would not trust that.


The point is more, that the combination of high disparity AND high contrast makes the likelyhood for ghosting significant higher. You can influence contrast a little bit (not with your TD10 but in the postpro, or with high-sofisticated units like the Z10K by choosing another gamma curve). But what you can influence to avoid ghosting is the disparity you have in your videos. That is the major reason why I am a absolut fan of low disparities in our products (as good as possible).




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3dPCH* /forum/post/22094914
> 
> 
> Are we seeing the full resolution when displaying 3D video directly from the TD10 via the HDMI-out port into the TV, and if not, is it significant?



Yes, if you playback 3D footage from your TD10 via HDMI-out you will have 1080 60i if the HDTV is able to display that. Be aware that there are a lot of settings in your TD10 where you can adjust the output - for example to 1080 60i or 1080 60p or to lower resolution also. A lot of people like that, since here you are able to playback the native resolution where the camera shoots in.


My opinion is still, that there is not such a huge difference between 1080 50i and 720 50p (I shoot in PAL).




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3dPCH* /forum/post/22094914
> 
> 
> Are you losing any data by not using PMB 1st to download the raw video onto your computer before using a video editor (again, is it significant)?



No, since the PMB copies the footage only. Also, if you use Vegas or Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum, you will not loose quality when coping the footage to the harddisc.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3dPCH* /forum/post/22094914
> 
> 
> Are there any new software/editing options that make it easier to get TD10 video converted for Blu-Ray disc burning at a resolution and frame rate and time investment that makes it worthwhile. (i.e., is it still for experts only?)



The issue is the 3D Blu-ray specification, that allows 720 50p, 720 60p and 1080 24p only. So since you come from a footage with 1080 60i, you always may need a conversion. At least for 3D Blu-ray. So a new software will not help really.


What is possible is that you use the PMB to create a BDAV structure on a Blu-ray. The newer Blu-ray player are able to playback the footage then with 1080 60i, some play that back as 720p only, and some do not playback that at all. I do not know any other software yet, that is able to create such a BDAV-structure for 3D.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3dPCH* /forum/post/22094914
> 
> 
> Are there any particular 3D TV specs I should look for to maximize the quality of TD10 output with minimal editing?



If you wish to edit the footage, you have to use a software that has an MVC-encoder - to be able to create a Blu-ray. If that is minimum editing may depend on your definition. Minimum editing can be done also with the PMB - in terms of trimming clips and make cut-points. But no color correction, no level correction, no adjustment of the geometrics (but that is not often requiered for the TD10).




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3dPCH* /forum/post/22094914
> 
> 
> What is the easiest display method- using a computer hooked to the TV thru a video editor?; burn a DVD/Blu-Ray?; a mass media storage device that the TV recognizes?; HDMI-out from the camera? (apologies for the general nature of all these questions).
> 
> Comments (or not) on one or all of these topics appreciated.



To my opinion to burn a 3D Blu-ray accoding to the actual standards as defined by the Blu-ray consortia. And to playback that with a standard 3D Blu-ray player - or with a harddisk player like the Prodigy 3D or the iconbit.


But there is no general answer to that - this will depend on your wishes and needs. There is also some editing possibility in the TD10 itself - but be aware that edited footage in the TD10 cannot be edited again in Vegas (you loose 3D here, for whatever reason).


----------



## Andrew_Woods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.* /forum/post/22095053
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3dPCH* /forum/post/22094914
> 
> 
> Are you losing any data by not using PMB 1st to download the raw video onto your computer before using a video editor (again, is it significant)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, since the PMB copies the footage only. Also, if you use Vegas or Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum, you will not loose quality when coping the footage to the harddisc.
Click to expand...


There is a technicality here. If a single video is longer than ~2GB in size, the camera breaks the recording into multiple files (


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Don and I use the Vegas tool, called "decive explorer", for that problem. Is the better choise IF you wish to edit in Vegas anyway.


----------



## Don Landis

With a TD10 there are two and only two easy to use methods that I prefer.

1. I use PMB that is built for the TD10 when I have hundreds of clips to move to my hard drive. Using PMB is simple, almost automatic, and I have a quick review of thumbnails and easy to understand file names to screen during the process. Why anyone would use windows explorer to do this transfer is beyond me but I recognize some people think that these video clips are just ordinary computer files and can be treated as such.

2. If I have just a couple of clips to move from the camcorder WHILE I'M IN THE MIDDLE OF AN EDIT PROJECT, AND MY TD10 IS ALREADY CONNECTED, I use the Device Explorer in Vegas Pro to get the clip or two.


There are a couple of other products that also work, including an upgrade to PMB you can download. One was designed by the Play Station 3 division. I have not tried this because I see no reason to fix what isn't broke from the two methods above. If you are using a PS3 in your process it may be to your advantage to use that. But be careful if using any product that is not specifically recommended by Sony _for the TD10_, including earlier versions of PMB as you will be entering into unknown hidden problems that could create trouble for your editing, rendering and playback of burned BD.


----------



## jwcole1224

I too am a new owner of the Sony TD10, Best-Buy closeout....

I'm pleased with it so far.


From what I can find, there appears to be two consumer 3D editing products:

Sony's Vegas and PowerDirector.


Would anyone on this forum recommend one over the other?


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jwcole1224* /forum/post/22098445
> 
> 
> I too am a new owner of the Sony TD10, Best-Buy closeout....
> 
> I'm pleased with it so far.
> 
> 
> From what I can find, there appears to be two consumer 3D editing products:
> 
> Sony's Vegas and PowerDirector.
> 
> 
> Would anyone on this forum recommend one over the other?



They're really two different products. Vegas Pro is a much more powerful editor with tons of pro features. PowerDirector is a consumer editor that easier to use. If all you want to do is minimal editing (trim clips, add dissolves, throw in some background music and sound FX), PowerDirector is great. It even lets you add menus. Vegas gives you a lot of control over every aspect of the production, and the output can look better, but the learning curve is steeper and it costs quite a bit more. It also does not allow you to create menus.


If you're serious about editing, you'll outgrow PowerDirector, but it's a good place to start.


----------



## jwcole1224




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark* /forum/post/22098880
> 
> 
> They're really two different products. Vegas Pro is a much more powerful editor with tons of pro features. PowerDirector is a consumer editor that easier to use. If all you want to do is minimal editing (trim clips, add dissolves, throw in some background music and sound FX), PowerDirector is great. It even lets you add menus. Vegas gives you a lot of control over every aspect of the production, and the output can look better, but the learning curve is steeper and it costs quite a bit more. It also does not allow you to create menus.
> 
> 
> If you're serious about editing, you'll outgrow PowerDirector, but it's a good place to start.



Joe,


At least to start, it sounds like PowerDirector may work for me.

Since you didn't mention the consumer version of Vegas, I assume that wouldn't be the best choice.


Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Jerry


----------



## Darkside

Although I don't do much editing, I use Vegas to edit and PD to author menus. I purchased Vegas Studio, which is less than $100 but still has lots of features.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

I would go for Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum, I think that is the better choice compared with the PD10. The 3D function is similar in both Vegas Pro 11 and VMS, too - in terms of 3D.


----------



## jwcole1224

Thank-you for the reply.

While I've already ordered PD-10, I may need to get Vegas too.


----------



## Don Landis

If you plan on creative editing the Vegas products are much superior. PD10 is limited, but does offer many canned effects for those who want fancy but don't want to be creative about it. They even have a "club" to join where you can share other's creativity. While Vegas products are more flexible, they do require some learning and the Vegas Pro o9ffers more than you will use, likely in a consumer environment, such as multicamera editing.


Personally, I prefer Vegas Pro for editing and then export to PD10 to author a 3D BluRay with menus. It's an excellent package. If you enter Vegas Movie Studio Platinum you can always upgrade to Pro later and use the same work flow and learning for Pro.


I would start with Vegas Movie Studio Platinum, when you want to do Blu Ray burning with menus, add PD10 to your kit. If you need professional features in editing, upgrade to Vegas Pro later on. But- PD10 will also do a consumer fine for a starting point. You may find you need to save your money for faster computer anyway, as 3D editing really taxes the hardware.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jwcole1224*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1380#post_22110280
> 
> 
> You're all a great help.
> 
> I will start off with PD10 and then move on as I learn more.
> 
> I purchased the TD10 because I got a great deal and I have a 1 year grand daughter, she's incredible and I want to capture moments that the family can enjoy many years from now. For me, 3D conveys a sense of space to moving images that 2D cameras just simply cannot provide. I want to learn how to do this well.
> 
> Best Wishes
> 
> Jerry



You're in for a fun ride, Jerry.







I agree with you wholeheartedly. 3D gives you a sense of "being there" all over again. 2D can't touch it.


I think PD10 is a really good place to start. You can get great results by trimming your clips, then adding a few fades, dissolves, titles and some appropriate background music. Finish it off with one of the built-in menus, and people will think you're a genius!







When you're ready, just know that there are more powerful video editors waiting to take you to the next level. And people here on AVS will be happy to answer questions.


----------



## jwcole1224




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1380#post_22110326
> 
> 
> You're in for a fun ride, Jerry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you wholeheartedly. 3D gives you a sense of "being there" all over again. 2D can't touch it.
> 
> I think PD10 is a really good place to start. You can get great results by trimming your clips, then adding a few fades, dissolves, titles and some appropriate background music. Finish it off with one of the built-in menus, and people will think you're a genius!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you're ready, just know that there are more powerful video editors waiting to take you to the next level. And people here on AVS will be happy to answer questions.



FYI, I deleted my original post with the intent of re-posting, but I was side tracked a bit.

Thanks for the reply.


Jerry


----------



## 3dPCH

To piggyback on the excellent answers so far, has anyone used Vegas Platinum or PD to create slideshows from 3D stills, with advanced tools like pan-and-scan and zoom (Ken Burns-like effects)? Can these still animations be turned into a recordable 3D slideshow to be burned in Blu-Ray/DVD, or incorporated into a movie timeline with 3D (and 2D if needed) video clips?


Update: Moving this discussion to other forum(s), thanks. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333927/3d-editing-room/300#post_22115121


----------



## Joseph Clark

3D slide shows are a piece of cake in PD10, as is integrating 3D stills and video. I've burned many projects from 3D MPOs taken with a Fuji W3. Ken Burns type effects may be possible, but I've never used them in PD10 (although many times in Premiere). Many projects can be burned to DVD or Blu-ray in 2D and 3D. You can choose to burn a DVD of a project, then click a couple of buttons and create a Blu-ray version that works virtually identically.


----------



## markr041

"To piggyback on the excellent answers so far, has anyone used Vegas Platinum or PD to create slideshows from 3D stills."


Yes, used Vegas to take MPO files and make a 3D slide show. No zooming though (that's done in the field):














Of course, the TD10 does not take 3D stills, so I am not sure why this topic is in this thread







.


----------



## GMDFilms

I produce lower budget indie movies and shot my first 3D feature last summer, "Blood of Ohma".


My 'rig' consisted of two Sony HD cams mounted side by side, and I edited the whole thing with Sony Vegas 11.


This summer, I'm taking on my next 3D feature, and I'll be shooting it with the HDR-TD10.


The picture quality of this camera looks fantastic, but more importantly, it features a range of manual controls that you usually only get on camera's twice the price, and never in 3D.


The shuttle ring on the front of the camera can manually control the convergence point, and also the exposure and focus, which lets you do more cinematic 'rack focus' type shots.


I've only done a test project on it so far, but I'll be able to really put it thru a field test on the next movie. That's where I'll discover any limitations of the camera.


I'll be sure to check in with how it goes.


----------



## Don Landis

Welcome new member!


We look forward to seeing your progress in 3D. A few of us are very interested in twin camera rigs. We have a thread here dedicated to such work. Would like to see a picture of your system. I use two TD10's in 2D mode for my twin stereo setup with variable IA from 5" to 1 meter.


----------



## trevorjharris

The are problems with dual rigs though. I have always thought you need to have genlock to syncronize frames and these cameras are expensive. You may need to syncronize other functions such as zoom. I have see that some people use lanc for this. Don I wondered why you chose the TD10 for a dual rig. There are other cameras like the Canon HF G10 which have a higher overal performance.


----------



## Don Landis

The only real problem for dual rigs is that they are not automatic consumer level tools. Everything about shooting dual is manual and far more complex image design has to be considered compared to 2D or even 3D with a single camera. This task is not for the newbie in dealing with complex details. For even the expert, it remains a learning exercise.


A pair of TD10's in your kit is a perfect compact pair for shooting a variety of 3D. You have two POV cameras for times when you need two points of view shooting in 3D. Then using Lanc controller you can attain adequate sync for twin wide Stereo Base shooting including zoom sync, plus the Sony camcorders have the most supported accessories of any camcorder family. Its a hard to beat package that can travel the easiest. Combine that with a Panasonic 3D1 and you have a great pocket 3D camcorder and still shooter. Combine that with a NEX5n and now I can add 3D panorama shots. So that's my kit, designed around what I need for what I do.

Canon has always been a good company for lenses. They were the first to make an OIS lens system and I have rented their $25,000 broadcast version many times for helicopter shooting. However as of about 2009, Sony stepped up and matched the Canon performance in their consumer camcorders so IMO, that Canon superior performance is now a match. X.V. color in The TD10 is a great PQ improvement too. All in all the remaining superiority of the Canon HFG10 remains in the glass. The Sony is the accessories and ergonomics. It would not be possible for Canon to maintain the glass superiority and be a 3D design, so if I had gone with the HFG10's I would have had to spend more for a larger size kit. The trade off wasn't there, plus the HFG10's weren't out when I got into the TD10. Back then it was the Sony vs the JVC. I'd say if I had to do it all over again, I would only get the TD20 to do the same thing but not the Canon. If one already is into Canon then a second one is not a bad investment but the 3D shooting will be limited to stage sizes bigger than typical home video shooting in a room.


----------



## Frank

Yesterday I tried to connect the output of my TD-10 to a Avermedia capture card with the output set to side by side and the output was 2D only. I thought that decidedly inconvenient.









I then connected to a wireless HDMI transmitter with the same result.

I wound up having to program the EDID from my Yamaha Receiver into one of my HDMI detectives and put it in series to get the TD-10 to output side by side.
*It's at times like this that I often curse the designers of the HDMI spec.*

My JVC TD-1 doesn't require the HDMI detective by the way.


After getting it to work I put it on my remote controlled tripod head out near the forest and started watching the live 3D in my living room.

It wound up working better then I hoped.


----------



## hibijibis

hi all.


have recently started playing around with some clips from my td10. unfortunately for me, i dont have a 3d monitor to test things on. i tried a quit test.


i have been importing files using PMB. it produces a m2ts and modd file.

i then edit the clip in vegas pro 11. but when it comes to export, there is no option of going back to an m2ts file. the aim being that if i could somehow export to an m2ts file, i would be able to import that file back into pmb and then export back to camera for viewing.


has anyone been able to export an edited clip back to the TD10?


thanks pros!


(first post)


----------



## Powerplay4

Another video made with the td-10:





If you want to download this video in Blu-ray 3D MVC (ISO file) without compression of Youtube, follow the links:


> Quote:
> http://www.netload.in/dateiuDx81vkVks/3D.Shopping.Barigui.Curitiba.16.06.2012.part2.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiEdTdXxmcK7/3D.Shopping.Barigui.Curitiba.16.06.2012.part1.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateihEtHAVIFzp/3D.Shopping.Barigui.Curitiba.16.06.2012.part3.rar.htm



Thanks

Milton


----------



## Powerplay4

Another video made with the td-10:





If you want to download this video in Blu-ray 3D MVC (ISO file) without compression of Youtube, follow the links:


> Quote:
> http://www.netload.in/dateicBq87FeF4A/3D.Um.Passeio.pelas.Ruas.de.Curitiba.part08.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateirnFgwufs4X/3D.Um.Passeio.pelas.Ruas.de.Curitiba.part07.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiMhWkFFkBUY/3D.Um.Passeio.pelas.Ruas.de.Curitiba.part01.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/datei1jTIqGFYxu/3D.Um.Passeio.pelas.Ruas.de.Curitiba.part02.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiFpCuybXzLV/3D.Um.Passeio.pelas.Ruas.de.Curitiba.part03.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiiobSZZFE8Y/3D.Um.Passeio.pelas.Ruas.de.Curitiba.part04.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateinOIcJA4cAE/3D.Um.Passeio.pelas.Ruas.de.Curitiba.part05.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateilHAGv4K3zQ/3D.Um.Passeio.pelas.Ruas.de.Curitiba.part06.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateipY3zQtPnTQ/3D.Um.Passeio.pelas.Ruas.de.Curitiba.part10.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiSetwgQCx1Z/3D.Um.Passeio.pelas.Ruas.de.Curitiba.part09.rar.htm



Thanks

Milton


----------



## GMDFilms

Here's a picture of my 2 Camera Rig, next to my concept drawing of it.

 


It's 2 Sony HDR-CX100's with the Zoom H1 sound recorder mounted on top of a handmade 'Fig Rig' for stability.

 


Each camera was shooting 1080/60i HD, and all the post production was done in Sony Vegas 10 using their 3D tools.


Here's a 3D video trailer to the movie I filmed with it.





The limitations to this style of rig are numerous.


There's no control over zoom, focus or convergence, which takes away most of the 'cinematic' tools for film makers. Everything had to be done in post production.


I'm very happy with the end result, but the limitations is why I upgraded to the HDR-TD10, which gives me back all those tools, including the ability to zoom in 3D.


What I will say though, is doing my first project manually (with a 2 camera system) gave me the practice and experience to fully understand how 3D film making works.


----------



## GMDFilms

Here's a picture of my 2 Camera Rig, next to my concept drawing of it.

 


It's 2 Sony HDR-CX100's with the Zoom H1 sound recorder mounted on top of a handmade 'Fig Rig' for stability.

 


Each camera was shooting 1080/60i HD, and all the post production was done in Sony Vegas 10 using their 3D tools.


Here's a 3D video trailer to the movie I filmed with it.





The limitations to this style of rig are numerous.


There's no control over zoom, focus or convergence, which takes away most of the 'cinematic' tools for film makers. Everything had to be done in post production.


I'm very happy with the end result, but the limitations is why I upgraded to the HDR-TD10, which gives me back all those tools, including the ability to zoom in 3D.


What I will say though, is doing my first project manually (with a 2 camera system) gave me the practice and experience to fully understand how 3D film making works.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

A nice idea that I like.


What about the relativ strong movements in the vertical direction - between L and R of the video? The typical opinion for 3D is that this should not take place...


----------



## Joseph Clark

GMDFilms,


I love this kind of creativity and passion in independent filmmaking. I look forward to seeing more of your work. Blair Witch Project, move over.


----------



## Powerplay4

Another video made with the td-10:





If you want to download this video in Blu-ray 3D MVC (ISO file) without compression of Youtube, follow the links:


> Quote:
> http://www.netload.in/datei2jJyGrBVFY/3D.Parque.Tangua.2012.06.15.part2.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/datei1RYDav5Ntd/3D.Parque.Tangua.2012.06.15.part1.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiLi7HIe5TJe/3D.Parque.Tangua.2012.06.15.part3.rar.htm



Thanks

Milton


----------



## Powerplay4

Another video made with the td-10:





Thanks

Milton


----------



## the-bunker




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hibijibis*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1380#post_22146582
> 
> 
> has anyone been able to export an edited clip back to the TD10?



I don't believe you can output back into the same input format, so no you wouldn't be able to put it back onto the TD10.


This is not unusual in the AV world - think of the original content as an intermediate format, and not the final format.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

That seems to work with the pmb only.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1380#post_22156379
> 
> 
> That seems to work with the pmb only.



I have never tried it with 3D video but once I used Vegas to edit a video with titles and new soundtrack and then put the production back on the camcorder ( HDR-SR12) using PMB. It worked great. But I don't think PMB will do that with MVC especially long form in excess of 2Gb. Could be wrong on this. Would be nice to have someone prove me wrong. I'd love to have an SD card of my work that I could play back on the auto stereo monitor on the TD10


----------



## Wolfgang S.

As far as I know, to copy back a video to the TD10 will work with the pmb, but ONLY if you edit the video within the PMB.


That is not what I wish to do, given the limited features of the PMB in terms of editing.


----------



## MLXXX




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GMDFilms*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1380#post_22150724
> 
> 
> Here's a picture of my 2 Camera Rig, next to my concept drawing of it.
> 
> The limitations to this style of rig are numerous.
> 
> There's no control over zoom, focus or convergence, which takes away most of the 'cinematic' tools for film makers. Everything had to be done in post production.
> 
> I'm very happy with the end result, but the limitations is why I upgraded to the HDR-TD10, which gives me back all those tools, including the ability to zoom in 3D.
> 
> What I will say though, is doing my first project manually (with a 2 camera system) gave me the practice and experience to fully understand how 3D film making works.


Great to have drama being captured in 3D. The trailer includes some high interaxial distances (a bit too high for my conservative tastes!).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Powerplay4*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1380#post_22151824
> 
> 
> If you want to download this video in Blu-ray 3D MVC (ISO file) without compression of Youtube, follow the links:
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Thanks, Milton


Thanks, I downloaded the rar files and burned the iso. Good detail in the video and nice clean sound. I note the 24fps render rate suits slow pans.


Milton, something I've noticed with your TD10 videos, is an often muted effect for green. I don't know whether that is a result of overcast weather, the camera itself, or a combination. Perhaps some colour adjustment could be experimented with??


----------



## Powerplay4

Another video made with the TD10 - Japan Square (Curitiba - Brazil):





If you want to download this video in Blu-ray 3D MVC (ISO file) without compression of Youtube, follow the links:


> Quote:
> http://www.netload.in/dateiVfYcyFEGYV/3D.Praca.do.Japao.23.06.2012.part2.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/datei2Zyp7wy10L/3D.Praca.do.Japao.23.06.2012.part1.rar.htm



Thanks

Milton


----------



## gozoman

This weekend I bought a 2 TB external hard drive to archive videos from my HD10. Copying works fine.

In the manual I read that the maximum number of scenes to be saved on the external media in HD quality is only 3999. The complete copy of my internal memory (64 GB) already contains 1378 scenes. Does this mean that after saving less than 3 times my internal memory I can't save no more video's?

Are there ways to overcome this? Like saving onto another external hard drive and copy to my 2 TB drive?

I thought I was able to save 31 internal memories, but it seems I'm left disappointed.


----------



## Don Landis

Yep- Sony wants you to throw the camera away and buy a new one.


Just kidding!











I've not run into this before but it may be a FAT32 limitation or a limitation in the TD10's file numbering system. Try to transfer to separate folders on the 2Tb drive. That is- do your first transfer of 3999 scenes. Then move this folder set created by the TD10 to a new main root folder to hide the archive. Now transfer more "scenes" to the 2Tb drive again and repeat until the 2Tb drive has several archive folders with the limit in each. It's what I would try.



What you referenced in the manual-


Notes

The number of scenes you can save on the

external media device are as follows. However,

even if the external media device has free space,

you cannot save scenes exceeding the following

number.

High definition image quality (HD) movies:

Max. 3,999

Standard definition image quality (STD)

movies: Max. 9,999

Photos: Max. 40,000

The number of scenes may be smaller

depending on the camcorder setting and the

type of images recorded.



I use the external media process only when in the field and need to offload my TD10 for more shooting. Normally at home, I use PMB to transfer and convert the files to make ready for editing to my computer work drive, a 4Tb Raid system and have no trouble with limits on clip numbers.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Don, since you use two TD10 as I do - is it necessary to have two harddisks, or is it enough to have one harddisk for two TD10s? I assume it is necessary to have two discs for two cameras....


----------



## Don Landis

My SOP in the field is that I have a TD10 #1 and a TD10 #2. The second one is only used for the twin rig but the first one I will record both 2D clips and 3D clips. Normally this causes my TD10 #1 to fill up first. So I don't know if I would need a second hard drive in the field to save the clips from the camera memory or not. I think the file system would get confused don't you?

First of all the files on my camera are sequentially numbered MTS files. These numbers are the same as on my second camera. That would be a conflict. When I use PMB to the computer I set up a Left cam folder and a right cam folder. Here the files are maintained separately and if I import the files as a group for a given day, the files are now in sequence. and match up from each folder. When I import them to the timeline as a group for pairing, it is obvious that each collection of clips match on the left time line on top to the right time line underneath. If I used my TD10#1 to shoot a clip by itself during the shooting of the twin cams that clip will insert itself as an extra clip throwing the match if clips out of alignment. It's easy to spot and I just select those and delete them and with ripple on the remaining 2D clips realign themselves. If there is a sync issue on my clap board, I do a bit of sliding so the sound tracks line up for that clip. Then I pair and auto adjust each. It really is a fast process. Setting the keyframes for correcting is the slow part.


So, with that said, I would use a second field hard drive for the second camera and I happen to have two WD Passport 120Gb drives but have never been in a shooting trip where I needed to do that. I shoot a lot but not that much. Plus, I begin each trip with my cams and SD cards all cleaned and reformatted. I don't carry my archive stuff from previous projects in the camera. It gets dumped to home storage after each trip. My cams are cleaned and ready to go the day after I get back. BTW- I also have two 32Gb SD class 10 cards and find it just easier to switch to recording onto those as the internal memory fills up during a trip.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Yes, I agree that it will be necessary to run two harddrives for our purpose, to avoid that they become confused. I wonder if it makes much sense to invest in harddrives at all. Maybe it is enough to have some additional 32 gb sdhc cards?


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> Maybe it is enough to have some additional 32 gb sdhc cards?


For most work, that is much simpler, especially when in the field.


The cool thing is, the SD card is compatible across many cameras. Everything I carry uses them. I believe for you too.


----------



## Powerplay4

Another video made with the TD10 - Barigui Park (Curitiba - Brazil):





If you want to download this video in Blu-ray 3D MVC (ISO file) without compression of Youtube, follow the links:


> Quote:
> http://www.netload.in/dateikaTCmYPSi6/3D.Parque.Barigui.e.sua.Fauna.04.07.2012.part2.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiHvdQxOtc7a/3D.Parque.Barigui.e.sua.Fauna.04.07.2012.part1.rar.htm



Thanks

Milton


----------



## gozoman

Thanks, Don! I did what you advised me to do. I think this should work.

Does PMB create the same file and folder structure as a direct transfer between the TD10 and an external hard drive? And can the hard drive in the computer be NTFS?

I ask this because my current computer is not able to run PMB. I plan to buy a new one which should also be able to edit 3D films.


----------



## MLXXX

I have completed editing a choral concert performed in a cathedral. I cannot upload more than a few seconds of it, but I hope the excerpt illustrates at least in part the capacity of the built-in mikes of the Sony TD10 to achieve an impressive sound. (I am personally very impressed with what this consumer grade camera can achieve in its sound recording.)

_Vegas Pro_


Although I was tempted to edit using a trial of Edius 6.5, I used the more familiar (albeit temperamental) Vegas 11. I was almost tearing my hair out when the render of the 50 minute 3D Blu-ray image persistently froze at _different_ percentages of job completion... After scouring the net, I eventually found a solution that worked: open a second instance of Vegas and copy and paste all tracks and save to a new file. (The surround setting for each audio track has to be manually adjusted to match the original.) It sems the Vegas file I had been working on had become corrupt...


At one point I used the Vegas pan/crop tool to create a slow pan of the singers using a zoom window of 480x270 pixels. I needed to use the stereoscopic 3D adjust plug-in, to reduce the excessive parallax that the x4 electronic zoom introduced. Resolution was of course noticeably poor with x4 zoom, but provided relief from the original footage's mostly fixed, relatively wide angle, views.

_The excerpt_


And here is a very brief segment taken from behind the choristers while they were rehearsing. For the YouTube upload, only stereo sound has been used, rather than 5.1 channel sound the camera produced. This segment is original footage; with no adjustment to parallax, rendered at 23.976p, half-width side by side:


----------



## MLXXX




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Powerplay4*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22198299
> 
> 
> Another video made with the TD10 - Barigui Park (Curitiba - Brazil):
> 
> ] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzEZXne1DFw


Hi Milton, in this video I see that the greens are stronger. To me they look more natural than in some of the previous videos. Unfortunately, the boost in the colour has also affected the blues, e.g. of the sky, and of the water. (I had previously noticed that blue was a little unusual, but in this latest video, blue is much too strong, in my opinion.)


It is difficult to "tell a story" when covering a single attraction such as a park. I liked the effect at the end of a theme of "leaving the park", including having no music. I think the idea of sorting and assembling the individual clips into different "phases" is very desirable. It gives structure, and maintains the viewer's interest. Perhaps you could have given the start of the video more of an "arriving at the park" theme. Another possibility would be for the waterfowl to have started on shore, headed out to the middle of the lake/river, and then returned to shore. Just some suggestions. Cheers


----------



## djamesb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1380#post_22107061
> 
> 
> If you plan on creative editing the Vegas products are much superior. PD10 is limited, but does offer many canned effects for those who want fancy but don't want to be creative about it. They even have a "club" to join where you can share other's creativity. While Vegas products are more flexible, they do require some learning and the Vegas Pro o9ffers more than you will use, likely in a consumer environment, such as multicamera editing.
> 
> Personally, I prefer Vegas Pro for editing and then export to PD10 to author a 3D BluRay with menus. It's an excellent package. If you enter Vegas Movie Studio Platinum you can always upgrade to Pro later and use the same work flow and learning for Pro.
> 
> I would start with Vegas Movie Studio Platinum, when you want to do Blu Ray burning with menus, add PD10 to your kit. If you need professional features in editing, upgrade to Vegas Pro later on. But- PD10 will also do a consumer fine for a starting point. You may find you need to save your money for faster computer anyway, as 3D editing really taxes the hardware.



Hey Don, did a little catching up through the thread, looks like you've definitely upped your hardware! Cool.


I'm getting back to taking vid and editing. I'm still using my TD10.


I have current versions of PD10 Ultra, Vegas Pro 11, and HD Platinum (bought that first then got Pro).


-- When you say "Vegas Pro for editing and then export to PD10" , what exactly are you doing? Are you rendering as a certain format then importing to PD10?


Also, before I start searching all over the place, are the various work flows for the TD10 posted in this thread, or are they residing somewhere else also?


My 3 basic workflows I'm looking for are:


TD10 > PMB > "Edit" > Youtube - seems all these programs upload to youtube but end result seems to differ depending on what you upload with.


TD10 > PMB > "Edit" > back to best resolution/format for viewing with Cyberlink 12 Ultra


TD10 > PMB> "Edit" Vegas > import to PD10 > Burn to Bluray - - a little frustrated as the only way I can burn a Bluray that will work is with PMB---now on this one, didn't I read to import with Media Manager in to Vegas Pro?


If you tell me I should read all 3 threads, Vegas Pro, TD10, and PD10 I will, later...










Thanks and regards,

Dan


P.S. I have no hardware restrictions so feel free to pass on PC stressing procedures.



>>>>>ok, forget it, I figured it out....


Import the files from td10 with pmb/play memory

Import the files to Vegas Pro

Put in timeline/edit

Burn BluRay with MainConcept 1920X1080-60i 25 MBS


I kept screwing around with changing "Properties" from Off to SBS etc. I just left off and am getting a fine product.


One question now though, I can't really tell the difference as far as quality between burning at 60i vs 24p? Is there much?


Also, I see to burn with Sony AVC/MVC the max is 16 Mbps stream. So MainConcept with higher Mbps is better?, that's the end output product going to the screen?


Thanks.....

Dan


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> - When you say "Vegas Pro for editing and then export to PD10" , what exactly are you doing? Are you rendering as a certain format then importing to PD10?
> 
> 
> Also, before I start searching all over the place, are the various work flows for the TD10 posted in this thread, or are they residing somewhere else also?



Try the Vegas Pro thread, post number 52, I recall. Richard Adams did a nice summary of what I am doing here with the above.


----------



## Powerplay4

Another video made with the TD10 - Curitiba Motor Show 2012 (Curitiba - Brazil):





Thanks

Milton


----------



## TrickMcKaha

Does anyone know the rolling shutter percentage for the TD 10? I'm using Deshaker.


----------



## 3dPCH

Has anyone tested the quality of authoring TD-10 3D video with the Sony PMB editor in AVCHD 2.0 format and playing on a compatible (Sony) Blu-Ray player, versus converting to another Blu-Ray standard? Is there a noticeable gain in fidelity and playback quality by going this (the AVCHD 2.0) route? Is there another program that has full editing controls AND AVCHD 2.0 authoring capability out there?


----------



## maxwell2323

I see the TD10 on a very popular auction site now in excellent condition currently at $33. Thinking of bidding. At what price would this be too much?


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3dPCH*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22462138
> 
> 
> Has anyone tested the quality of authoring TD-10 3D video with the Sony PMB editor in AVCHD 2.0 format and playing on a compatible (Sony) Blu-Ray player, versus converting to another Blu-Ray standard? Is there a noticeable gain in fidelity and playback quality by going this (the AVCHD 2.0) route? Is there another program that has full editing controls AND AVCHD 2.0 authoring capability out there?



I have not tested it yet - but will receive one of the AVCHD 3D (part of the AVCHD 2.0 specification) capable Blu-ray Players Sony 590 in the next days. Tests may take some time.


Yes, there is some software that can use that now:

- Cyberlink PD11 - creates a structure that can be burned to a disc.

- Pinnacle Studio 16 (with quite hiqh data rates up to 40 Mbps!) - either as a file, or you author a disc (but with lower data rates)

- Edius 6.52, what has got the AVCHD 2.0 capabilities - here you canot burn a disc yet, but you can use the so called "AVCHD 3D Writer" to write the file to the harddisc, or to create a BDMV-structure that can be burned to a disc.


So that is still quite new, not well explored, not well documented yet (also not on the side of the 3D-Blu ray player where it is hard to find in the specification if the player is AVCHD 2.0 capable (but the new Sony and Panasonic player are able to playback that footage).


----------



## Joseph Clark

Wolfgang,


I haven't been able to burn to an AVCHD 3D folder structure in Edius 6.52. According to Grass Valley:


"Support to export to AVCHD 3D.

Only supports file export. Exported file cannot be played in a camera and cannot be loaded into other editing software."


So, I think Edius' support for the AVCHD 3D standard is very limited. It makes me wonder what "standard" means to these companies. It's a high quality export, but if we can't get it to disc for playback, it's not very useful. But maybe I'm missing something. If there is a way to get this file to disc for playback on my Panasonic 320 Blu-ray player, I'd love the details.


While PowerDirector 11 creates AVCHD 3D discs, I don't like the quality. It appears that it doesn't simply copy the 60i footage over. In my tests, it re-encodes everything, and the quality degrades a lot. If I've missed a setting, I'd appreciate a head-up about how to get it to do a "smart render."


Have you had a chance to try Pinnacle Studio 16 yet? I haven't used Pinnacle for quite a long time.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Joe, you are right: there is no burning function in Edius 6.52 for AVCHD 3D. But what you can do is to use another application to burn the structure to a disc. It works similar in PD11 - you can also use separate burning tools.


I do not know what are the licensing issues that prevent the producer to implement such burning capabilities.


But one trick that seems to work is to use the output from tools like the Pinnacle Studio 16, that can be done with up to 40 Mbps. Import that to the PMH, the PMH accepepts the file. And then use the PMH to burn the disc. The product seems to run on AVCHD 2.0 able 3D-Blu-ray player.


I have not tested what happens if one burns the Edius output - I am still waiting for my new 3D-BD player. There was a delay from Amazon, unfortunately.


I have started to test Pinnacle Studio 16 - to my opinion it seems to work better (with my system) then the PD11. But there are some issues, too. The 3D-preview does still not work with my nvidia 3D vision and my Quadro 2000D graphic card - I see the 3D preview for a static picture, but when I start playback on my system it is 2D only. And the s3D plugin is very very simple - nothing similar to Edius or Vegas. And you do not have the capability to burn MVC-based 3D-BDs - only AVCHD 3D structures. So I think that Pinnacle Studio has some potential for a really good beginner-product, but the first launch of the product has still some issues that must be corrected.


----------



## Joseph Clark

I can't get the Pinnacle 16 trial to recognize any of my clips as 3D - JVC TD1, JVC HMZ1 or Panasonic Z10000. Is it possible the trial doesn't include the 3D functionality?


As for Edius, there is no folder structure to burn to disc. It exports only an m2ts file in what it says is AVCHD 3D format, but it also says it won't work in other 3D editors (or cameras) besides Edius. If AVCHD 3D is in fact a standard, I wonder if the files have some sort of header that identifies their origin, and if they don't match the application's criteria, they won't be recognized.


----------



## jacques.mariaud

Hello to you all


Pinnacle Studio 16

JVC GS-TD1 3D

Double-click the clip in the library

Select JVC GS-TD1 3D

Stereoscopic 3D - 3D frame 50%


There are still some bugs in this program including Export AVCH2

I remain at your disposal

cordially

Jacques


----------



## jacques.mariaud

Hello


Bug sur Pinnacle studio 16

_*Here is the structure of the original file from the Sony HDR-TD10 E*_



Général

ID : 0 (0x0)

Nom complet : C:\Users\Jacques\Videos\20121006111018.m2ts

Format : BDAV

Format/Info : Blu-ray Video

Taille du fichier : 42,1 Mio

Durée : 13s 496ms

Type de débit global : Variable

Débit global moyen : 26,2 Mb/s

Débit global maximum : 28,0 Mb/s


Vidéo #1

ID : 4113 (0x1011)

ID de menu : 1 (0x1)

Format : AVC

Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec

Profil du format : [email protected]

Paramètres du format, CABAC : Oui

Paramètres du format, RefFrames : 2 images

Paramètres du format, GOP : M=2, N=13

Identifiant du codec : 27

Durée : 13s 440ms

Type de débit : Variable

Débit maximum : 22,0 Mb/s

Largeur : 1 920 pixels

Hauteur : 1 080 pixels

Format à l'écran : 16/9

Images par seconde : 25,000 Im/s

Espace de couleurs : YUV

Sous-échantillonnage de la chrominance : 4:2:0

Profondeur des couleurs : 8 bits

Type de balayage : Entrelacé

Ordre de balayage : Ligne du haut d'abord *Is good*


Vidéo #2

ID : 4114 (0x1012)

ID de menu : 1 (0x1)

Format : AVC

Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec

Profil du format : Stereo [email protected]

MultiView_Count : 2

Paramètres du format, CABAC : Oui

Paramètres du format, RefFrames : 2 images

Identifiant du codec : 32

Durée : 13s 440ms

Type de débit : Variable

Débit maximum : 22,0 Mb/s

Largeur : 1 920 pixels

Hauteur : 1 080 pixels

Format à l'écran : 16/9

Images par seconde : 25,000 Im/s

Espace de couleurs : YUV

Sous-échantillonnage de la chrominance : 4:2:0

Profondeur des couleurs : 8 bits

Type de balayage : Entrelacé

Ordre de balayage : Ligne du haut d'abord *is good*


Audio

ID : 4352 (0x1100)

ID de menu : 1 (0x1)

Format : AC-3

Format/Info : Audio Coding 3

Extension du mode : CM (complete main)

Paramètres du format, Endianness : Big

Identifiant du codec : 129

Durée : 13s 536ms

Type de débit : Constant

Débit : 448 Kbps

Canaux : 6 canaux

Position des cannaux : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE

Echantillonnage : 48,0 KHz

Profondeur des couleurs : 16 bits

Mode de compression : Avec perte

Délai par rapport Vidéo : -80ms

Taille du flux : 740 Kio (2%)


Texte

ID : 4608 (0x1200)

ID de menu : 1 (0x1)

Format : PGS

Identifiant du codec : 144

Durée : 12s 935ms

Délai par rapport Vidéo : -80ms





*Here are the structure of a file encoded in ST16 HD AVCHD Disc*




Général

ID : 1 (0x1)

Nom complet : C:\Users\Jacques\Videos\AVCHD HD disc.mts

Format : BDAV

Format/Info : Blu-ray Video

Taille du fichier : 29,4 Mio

Durée : 13s 928ms

Type de débit global : Variable

Débit global moyen : 17,7 Mb/s

Débit global maximum : 20,4 Mb/s


Vidéo #1

ID : 4113 (0x1011)

ID de menu : 1 (0x1)

Format : AVC

Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec

Profil du format : [email protected]

Paramètres du format, CABAC : Non

Paramètres du format, RefFrames : 2 images

Identifiant du codec : 27

Durée : 13s 560ms

Type de débit : Variable

Débit maximum : 9 273 Kbps

Largeur : 1 440 pixels

Hauteur : 1 080 pixels

Format à l'écran : 16/9

Images par seconde : 25,000 Im/s

Espace de couleurs : YUV

Sous-échantillonnage de la chrominance : 4:2:0

Profondeur des couleurs : 8 bits

Type de balayage : Entrelacé

Ordre de balayage : Ligne du haut d'abord *is good*


Vidéo #2

ID : 4114 (0x1012)

ID de menu : 1 (0x1)

Format : AVC

Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec

Profil du format : Stereo [email protected]

MultiView_Count : 2

Paramètres du format, CABAC : Non

Paramètres du format, RefFrames : 2 images

Identifiant du codec : 32

Durée : 13s 560ms

Type de débit : Variable

Débit maximum : 7 727 Kbps

Largeur : 1 440 pixels

Hauteur : 1 080 pixels

Format à l'écran : 16/9

Images par seconde : 25,000 Im/s

Espace de couleurs : YUV

Sous-échantillonnage de la chrominance : 4:2:0

Profondeur des couleurs : 8 bits

Type de balayage : Entrelacé

Ordre de balayage : Ligne du haut d'abord *is good*


Audio

ID : 4352 (0x1100)

ID de menu : 1 (0x1)

Format : AC-3

Format/Info : Audio Coding 3

Extension du mode : CM (complete main)

Paramètres du format, Endianness : Big

Identifiant du codec : 129

Durée : 13s 504ms

Type de débit : Constant

Débit : 256 Kbps

Canaux : 2 canaux

Position des cannaux : Front: L R

Echantillonnage : 48,0 KHz

Profondeur des couleurs : 16 bits

Mode de compression : Avec perte

Taille du flux : 422 Kio



*Turning now to the structure of the encoded file by ST16 AVCHD HD (HDD)*



(HDD)

Général

ID : 1 (0x1)

Nom complet : C:\Users\Jacques\Videos\AVCHD HD (HDD).mts

Format : BDAV

Format/Info : Blu-ray Video

Taille du fichier : 41,6 Mio

Durée : 14s 113ms

Type de débit global : Variable

Débit global moyen : 24,6 Mb/s

Débit global maximum : 28,8 Mb/s


Vidéo #1

ID : 4113 (0x1011)

ID de menu : 1 (0x1)

Format : AVC

Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec

Profil du format : [email protected]

Paramètres du format, CABAC : Non

Paramètres du format, RefFrames : 2 images

Identifiant du codec : 27

Durée : 13s 560ms

Type de débit : Variable

Débit maximum : 13,1 Mb/s

Largeur : 1 920 pixels

Hauteur : 1 080 pixels

Format à l'écran : 16/9

Images par seconde : 25,000 Im/s

Espace de couleurs : YUV

Sous-échantillonnage de la chrominance : 4:2:0

Profondeur des couleurs : 8 bits

Type de balayage : Entrelacé

Ordre de balayage : Ligne du haut d'abord *is good*

Vidéo #2

ID : 4114 (0x1012)

ID de menu : 1 (0x1)

Format : AVC

Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec

Profil du format : Stereo [email protected]

MultiView_Count : 2

Paramètres du format, CABAC : Non

Paramètres du format, RefFrames : 2 images

Identifiant du codec : 32

Durée : 13s 560ms

Type de débit : Variable

Débit maximum : 10,9 Mb/s

Largeur : 1 920 pixels

Hauteur : 1 080 pixels

Format à l'écran : 16/9

Images par seconde : 25,000 Im/s

Espace de couleurs : YUV

Sous-échantillonnage de la chrominance : 4:2:0

Profondeur des couleurs : 8 bits

Type de balayage : Entrelacé

Ordre de balayage : Ligne du bas d'abord *Is no good*


Audio

ID : 4352 (0x1100)

ID de menu : 1 (0x1)

Format : AC-3

Format/Info : Audio Coding 3

Extension du mode : CM (complete main)

Paramètres du format, Endianness : Big

Identifiant du codec : 129

Durée : 13s 504ms

Type de débit : Constant

Débit : 384 Kbps

Canaux : 6 canaux

Position des cannaux : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE

Echantillonnage : 48,0 KHz

Profondeur des couleurs : 16 bits

Mode de compression : Avec perte

Taille du flux : 633 Kio (1%)




*If I now switches to disc, and I'm trying to encode in AVCHD2 - Multistreaming


on an SD card, I found the same errors in the BDMV folder (Stream) file is wrong


encoded

In Video # 1 - Order of sweeping top line first

For video # 2 - Order of bottom line scan first


It is in interlaced mode


If I do, in "Progressive", a file 1920x1080, Multistreaming mode, the file is good


but if I go into disk mode for BDAV realized my SD card, I find the same


issue.*


*If Pinnacle could fix this would be nice.


I may be wrong but I'd like to explain myself.*


cordially

Jacques


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22526879
> 
> 
> I can't get the Pinnacle 16 trial to recognize any of my clips as 3D - JVC TD1, JVC HMZ1 or Panasonic Z10000. Is it possible the trial doesn't include the 3D functionality?



Right - the MVC decoder (and a bunch of other codecs) must be activated after the installation. I am not quite sure, but it did not work out with the trial really. But it works with the retail version I have here the Ultimate version as press version for testing purposes).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22526879
> 
> 
> As for Edius, there is no folder structure to burn to disc. It exports only an m2ts file in what it says is AVCHD 3D format, but it also says it won't work in other 3D editors (or cameras) besides Edius. If AVCHD 3D is in fact a standard, I wonder if the files have some sort of header that identifies their origin, and if they don't match the application's criteria, they won't be recognized.



Joe, Edius can writte the muxed AVCHD 3D file to the harddisc, or it can write the full SD-Chip structure to the harddisc. I have tested that, it works with the export to "AVCHD 3D" or "AVCHD 3D Writer". BUT you have to burn it to a Blu-ray with another tool. I still do not have the player here and cannot test the playback.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jacques.mariaud*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22528359
> 
> *If I now switches to disc, and I'm trying to encode in AVCHD2 - Multistreaming
> 
> on an SD card, I found the same errors in the BDMV folder (Stream) file is wrong
> 
> encoded
> 
> In Video # 1 - Order of sweeping top line first
> 
> For video # 2 - Order of bottom line scan first
> 
> It is in interlaced mode
> 
> If I do, in "Progressive", a file 1920x1080, Multistreaming mode, the file is good
> 
> but if I go into disk mode for BDAV realized my SD card, I find the same
> 
> issue.*
> *If Pinnacle could fix this would be nice.
> *



So you think that the field-order is wrong, if you encode to an interlaced file? Would look like a mixture of top-field first and bottom field first?


Are you sure that the reporting tool is really correct? I would not bet on that.


Have you been able to check if the playback is right?


----------



## jacques.mariaud

Hello Wolfgand S


For the analysis I used: Info Media


For control: PowerDVD 12, I put my drivers for my graphics card to date (GT530).


A reading either PowerDVD or Power Director 11 on the rendered file, I alternating Left Right (HD AVCHD HDD)


My LG 3D platinum is too old (BX580) to switch the AVCHD2 but I'll change for panasonic


Multistreaming files are not recognized by Vegas Pro 11 and finally played perfectly by Stereoscopic Player.


cordially

Jacques


----------



## jacques.mariaud

In order not to pollute this, I opened a new post "Pinnacle Studio 16 3D"


cordially

Jacques


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22528453
> 
> 
> Right - the MVC decoder (and a bunch of other codecs) must be activated after the installation. I am not quite sure, but it did not work out with the trial really. But it works with the retail version I have here the Ultimate version as press version for testing purposes).
> 
> Joe, Edius can writte the muxed AVCHD 3D file to the harddisc, or it can write the full SD-Chip structure to the harddisc. I have tested that, it works with the export to "AVCHD 3D" or "AVCHD 3D Writer". BUT you have to burn it to a Blu-ray with another tool. I still do not have the player here and cannot test the playback.



I'll take this over to the new Pinnacle thread. Thanks, Jacques.


----------



## Powerplay4

Another video made with the TD10 - Psy (possibly cover) Gangnam Style - 3D - Sao Paulo Auto Show 2012 (Brazil):





Thanks

Milton


----------



## 3dPCH

Six Months With the Sony HDR TD-10 Update #4


In the last few months I've tested Cyclopital's 15mm wide angle adapter, the various SteadyShot modes, with and without a tripod, and figured out how to download music onto the camera for "Highlight" playback. Also did some further parallax adjustment testing and revised the results. I've removed some earlier subjective reviews on the camera overall and stuck with how to get the most out of it.




This post is designed to help new users get the most out of this camera. Some tips probably apply to other cameras in the Sony range. This info is only about using the 3D video mode however. If some of my terminology is off, please let me know as I don't come from a technical photography background.


My own particular specialty is 3D outdoor scenic shots and shots with a lot of motion where the need to travel light is key. Scenics are sometimes difficult to shoot with any meaningful 3D, but it can be done. I find it is critical to evaluate the scene from a 3D perspective first and try to find an optimum vantage point before shooting. I like the TD-10's relatively wide field of view and the close-to-natural stereo base for this, as well as the large zoom range vs. the JVC. I also like the 64gb of onboard memory plus the memory card slots and the HDMI-out port, which allows me to keep a large portion of my 3D footage stored on the camera for playback directly to TV. I also like the underwater potential of the camera, although I've yet to try one of the housings that are available for it. The remote control should allow for the camera to be controlled even when fully enclosed by a housing.


Some tips on Depth/Parallax and Cyclopital's Wide-Angle Adapter


The camera itself can give you excessive amounts of negative parallax (objects coming out of the screen/frame) depending on zoom level and the setting of the parallax adjustment. I personally don't like this effect, as it hurts to watch for any length of time and seems unnatural, but some do. Rotating the dial CCW (-) "pushes" objects into the frame and CW (+) to brings them out. I've found that at the widest zoom setting the range of adjustment is about 15" to 40", at full (-) and (+) comp respectively, for the where objects start going negative. At full zoom, the range is between 15ft and 35ft. I've found to minimize negative parallax, set the compensation to full (-) (look for a "stop" icon on the screen if you can't tell), try to get as close to the subject as possible, and watch the zoom level when you are closer than 15ft. Further compensation can be done in post production.


I also have Cyclopital's wider of two wide-angle angle adapters it offers, the 15mm. In addition the the wider field of view, you can also get physically closer than the limits above before depth goes negative. You might get better macro results without the adapter, though. It does limit max zoom at the far end and gives an almost fisheye effect when used at full wide zoom, with serious vignetting from the housing visible and chromatic and sharpness problems in all but the center of the image. Where you want to use it is at a zoom level past where the vignetting and aberrations are no longer noticeable but which still gives you a nice wide field of view, to the limit of the zoom on the far end. There will be some overall softening vs the built-in lenses but that's to be expected. The AF seems to work well through the adapter within this range. The housing is made on a 3D printer of a somewhat brittle ceramic material- mine didn't survive a drop from a table-top recently. The product is not cheap, but it works.



SteadyShot


I use the camera with a sturdy tripod and quality pan-head to the max extent possible to get the most professional looking output (if that is important to your project). There are two optical stabilization modes and they both work great. In extensive testing, I detected no significant difference in overall sharpness with the SteadyShot on "Active" mode vs. "Off", both handheld and with a tripod, where I read some systems might compensate for shake that isn't there. The shake reduction on Active is excellent, and I would recommend leaving it on all the time. Full Active mode only works with the lens at the wide end. There is about 5-7% reduction in field of view when in "Active" and maybe a very slight difference in resolution, but almost not worth mentioning. There will be image blur as the speed increases as there's no shutter speed adjustment in 3D. As a side note-I use one of the better consumer level lightweight tripods and pan heads and get smoother pans by just grabbing and turning the camera and pan-head directly rather than using the supplied arm.


Manual Controls


In 3D mode (that's all I'm going to discuss here) there are only 3 manual adjustments you can make- focus, exposure (and depth). This is a huge limitation IMO, but we just have to deal with it. That said, I would become very familiar with the on screen menus to access various camera features. Perhaps more importantly, I'd learn how to use the the manual dial and pushbutton on the front of the camera before I went out on that first day. The ability to quickly select the right mode can save you hours of mis-shot video (trust me, I've already done it). Know the difference between the long and short pushes on the button. Short pushes in general cancel your manual settings and go back to auto mode and vice-versa. You may or may not want that to happen at that moment. Long pushes preserve your manual (or auto) setting (in general) and allow you to select another mode to adjust.


Exposure


I find it generally overexposes in auto exposure mode in bright conditions. To make matters worse, the LCD screen is almost useless in sunny conditions, especially to evaluate exposure adjustments. You need to practice working with it. In general, if you can see the image brightly on the LCD, it is probably overexposed. (This may be somewhat compensated later by the darker playback when looking through polarized/shutter glasses on a big-screen 3D-capable TV-I've yet to evaluate that effect). To compensate for exposure, I shoot with the dial always set up for manual exposure, or start out in auto, then tap the button and back it down 1-step when in a hurry. Because the screen gets washed out in sunlight, I use clouds or light rocks, concrete, or light painted areas which are easier to see on the screen, and lower the exposure value until I begin to see texture in these areas. Also, I always try to bracket a scene with multiple exposure values, time permitting.


Focus Issues


Next, there's a flaw in my camera (and perhaps others) in the manual focus mode. When partially or fully zoomed in on distant objects, and _infinity_ is selected manually, there is a _significant_ loss of resolution across the image. Oddly enough, in auto focus and the same zoom level the image retains its sharpness. This effect was a large part of my initial disappointment in video quality, but I didn't know it at the time. In general I start with the camera always in AF mode.If the scene permits, I'll switch to manual focus because the AF seems to focus on the nearest object in the frame, like a small branch on the edge and not the subject in the middle. Manual focus is also useful, say in a scenic where you are tracking a distant eagle. You want the camera on infinity, but when he momentarily flies behind some nearby trees, you don't want the camera switching to focus on the trees.

To fix the manual infinity focus problem, I found that starting with infinity and then backing the dial toward the 100m setting brings the distant objects into correct focus. 100m is actually infinity. Remember, the 100m setting and many of the shorter focus points are only available with the lenses nearly fully zoomed _in_. If you set 100m and zoom _out_ to a wider angle, the camera may default back to the infinity setting with the possible loss of resolution described above. The manual focus mode can also be _inadvertently_ shifted from your last setting too easily, in my opinion, even without touching the dial. I would practice using the manual button/dial to avoid this. Turning the camera on and off may also reset the focus to the infinity setting. It does seem to remember the last manual exposure settings, however, always check your settings every time you power up the camera.




Others have discovered a softness in the right vs left image. I have done my own test and not found this problem.


.


Zoom Controls


The zoom toggle switch is another issue. It does have useful slow and fast modes, but it's difficult to keep the switch (it's spring-loaded) in the desired range, especially when using the slow zoom, which can take 10 sec. Also, the finger pressure required introduces camera shake both on touch and release, even on a tripod. The remote control can help (it has zoom buttons) but it too has limitations, the biggest being that it is infrared and only seems to work when pointing it at the front end of the camera. This doesn't help when you are shooting and panning from behind the camera! I've recently tried using the touch screen for camera control when using a tripod, and it does seem to reduce the camera shake vs the physical buttons. The zoom speed available through the touchscreen is somewhere between the fast and slow modes of the toggle switch. To get the slowest zoom, you'll have to use the toggle.


Built-in Mic


On another note, the 5.1 Dolby surround sound mode is excellent and I would set it and forget it (unless you have limitations working with it down the line). There is a wind noise reduction mode which works in windy conditions, but don't leave it on as it degrades the audio quality in normal conditions. I recently cut a piece of felt to just cover the microphone grills on the front and used rubber cement to hold it in place, but haven't tried it in windy conditions.


Downloading Music onto the TD10 with Music Transfer


This was NOT a user-friendly process. But, if you like the "Highlight" playback mode, you can add your own music to the production. There was supposed to be a separate program bundled with PMB that comes with the camera called "Music Transfer". If you haven't updated PMB with Sony's newer Play Memories Home program, it should still be there. If you have updated PMB, you will have to download a new copy (l found a Mac OS X version under Sony Asia). Frustratingly, even without any documentation online or elsewhere, you may have already found the cameras Music folder and tried dragging and dropping song files into it. Doesn't work.


Here's how it works: Open a copy of Music Transfer. Connect the camera to your computer via USB and power on. From the touchscreen, X out of the "Connect via USB" dialogue, and instead go to Settings-Download Music and touch that. (it might work in straight USB Connect mode too). The camera will go into the download music USB mode and Music Transfer will show the cameras Music dialogue window, with options for Music 1-4. Click on one option. It will open a Browse option for your computer. Now the key: you can only select a folder with music in it, NOT an individual song, so arrange the songs you want into a folder first. The songs will show up in the Music Transfer window and now you can select which song you want to load first. The program "converts" and loads it into the camera. Repeat for the other 3 positions if desired. Disconnect the camera and From the Highlight mode on the camera, select Settings, one of which is to select the desired song.



All this aside, I believe it is possible to shoot impressive (If not in terms of absolute resolution, but for 3D) footage with this camera if one is careful. In my next update ill post a link to a music video shot entirely with the TD-10 that looks like it came from Hollywood.


Update #2: Can't find the video link any more. It was a French production/ edgy hard rock band. I'll keep looking.


Update#3: Found it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QWX2YG2onew


----------



## Wolfgang S.

The weaknesses are well known:


- the tendency to overexposure is an issue in 3D, I have the same experience. I think that the adjustment in expose can help, but since a zebra function is missing that is one of the clear weaknesses

- the weak lcd view in sunlight is an issue, one has to take care and may use Hoodman units (I use the big 450, but it is tough to reach the lcd to touch it- maybe the smaller 350 or 300 is better)

- I have not seen a difference in sharpness of the L and R picture, not for any one of my 3 units

- the fact, that one does not have a manual adjustment for white balance in 3D, is a major weakness of the cameras

- same findings with manual focus - the manual focus does not work in infinity, the automode is much better

- same finding with the manual pushbottom. It is confusing that there is a difference between long and short pushes, takes some time to learn that



But there is another major point: I do not like the convergence buttom at all. It is better to shoot with parallel axis, to avoid a high disparity in the farpoint. That can be done with the TD10 too.


----------



## relaxman

Interesting, that you guys don't have right lens out of focus problem.

I had with my 1st TD10, had with the 2nd which i became for repair time,

and after 2 (!) official Sony repair, still had this problem with my original TD10.

Interesting, the issue is not exist in all of my recording.


Around:

20% of my recorded videos are perfect

60% of my videos are bad (right is soft), but can be corrected with sharpening filter

and 20% of my videos are so bad, that i have to delete it.


So if you make a test with 1 or 2 short recording, that doesn't mean anything.

Try recording at leasr 15-20 scenes, and watch it with stereoscopic player in mono

mode (left only or right only), pause somewhere and switch the views with F7 key.

I think some of you, will see some difference!


I tried to figure out, what cause the problem:

tried at different lightning conditions (iris wide or small)

tried with different zoom levels

tried with auto/manual focus

and the effect is absolutely RANDOMLY!


One thing is sure: when i record scenes with lot of details, motions (waterfalls, rivers, etc)

right video is always even worse. I think here the limited MVC bitrate is just not enough.

But sadly the problem exist even at static scenes.


My question:

When Sony cannot repair, who can???


My dream would be a release info about the TD30:

24fps support

manual white balance support

AE shift

better resolution

and sharp right video of course!


----------



## Wolfgang S.

I think we have the right "lens to focus issues" - but I do not have the issues that you describe here.


----------



## 3dPCH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22534011
> 
> 
> The weaknesses are well known:
> 
> - the tendency to overexposure is an issue in 3D, I have the same experience. I think that the adjustment in expose can help, but since a zebra function is missing that is one of the clear weaknesses
> 
> - the weak lcd view in sunlight is an issue, one has to take care and may use Hoodman units (I use the big 450, but it is tough to reach the lcd to touch it- maybe the smaller 350 or 300 is better)
> 
> - I have not seen a difference in sharpness of the L and R picture, not for any one of my 3 units
> 
> - the fact, that one does not have a manual adjustment for white balance in 3D, is a major weakness of the cameras
> 
> - same findings with manual focus - the manual focus does not work in infinity, the automode is much better
> 
> - same finding with the manual pushbottom. It is confusing that there is a difference between long and short pushes, takes some time to learn that
> 
> But there is another major point: I do not like the convergence buttom at all. It is better to shoot with parallel axis, to avoid a high disparity in the farpoint. That can be done with the TD10 too.



Wolfgang, good points about the Hoodman for shading the LCD in sunlight. I don't have one myself because I'd probably lose it and don't always have the time to put in on when I'm in a rush. But..you could keep it permanently installed and set the camera to turn on with the power button and not the LCD screen so you can leave the screen open.

I agree about the convergence, too. I've never been able to get the auto convergence to work, and decided that since I don't shoot close-up, I don't need to mess with it.


Phil


----------



## Powerplay4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3dPCH*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22533866
> 
> 
> On another note, the 5.1 Dolby surround sound mode is excellent and I would set it and forget it (unless you have limitations working with it down the line). There is a wind noise reduction mode which works in windy conditions, but don't leave it on as it degrades the audio quality in normal conditions.



I recorded the video-clip "Psy (possibly cover) Gangnam Style" (a few posts ago), with the option "redution wind noise" enabled and the sound was really bad (you can check the clip). I think indeed that to obtain a good sound with the TD10, we have to leave the option "redution wind noise" off, mainly for indoor environment.


I'm uploading a long video (55 minutes), which I did with the TD10, the Auto Show 2012 in São Paulo. Once finished uploading, I'll post the link for you evaluate.


Thanks,

Milton


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *3dPCH*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22535671
> 
> 
> I agree about the convergence, too. I've never been able to get the auto convergence to work, and decided that since I don't shoot close-up, I don't need to mess with it.



I shoot in the way that I switch the TD10 to parallel axis - by choosing "+infinite" with the convergence knob. Works fine.


----------



## relaxman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22534011
> 
> 
> It is better to shoot with parallel axis, to avoid a high disparity in the farpoint.



I don't understand this. TD10 optic is always parallel, isn't? With the knob you set which area of the sensor is used for 3D picture.

Optic do not move and will never cross in a point. So it's always parallel. In fact for closeup scenes, TD10 method is better than

correcting parallax later in post WITH loosing resolution. With TD10 method, resolution will not be worse.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

What the WallEs like the TD10, TD1 or even Z10K use, is that they shift the picture on the sensor. Means, that you do not end up with a keystone effect as you would have from two independend cameras, when you choose a convergent shooting. Beside the keystone effct, if you adjust the convergence with the TD10 to a certain convergence point, you do the same as if you cross the camera axis - you have a point of zero parallax in the point where you converge. And that is NOT parallel in the end. Means, that if the convergence point is near to the camera, you will end up with a huge disparity in the farpoint - and if you go here beyond the 6.5 cm eye distance (what will depend on the size of your monitor too), fusion of L and R will not work any more.


True, parallel axis have always the need to make a horizontal adjustment in the postproduction, what will require cropping and will result in a loss in resolution. But it depends:

- if you are inside a house or room with limited distances, you can shoot with converging axis (since the disparity will not go beyond the 6.5 cm maybe). It will take your more time but it can be done

- if you have larger distances in your farpoint, it will be dangerours to shoot with convergeing axis, especially it the convergence point is near to the camera (because then the dispartiy in the farpoint may become huge).


My experience is, that in a lot of cases you have to adjust disparity in the postproduction anyway. But parallel axis will allow you to result with low disparities overall, what reduces also the danger of ghosting and will result in relativ low cropping.


----------



## Don Landis

relaxman- I'm sure your understanding is right on. It is what I got from Sony engineers.










But, in the real world, I find I can make post ( Vegas Pro 3D stereoscopic adjust effect) adjustments to the horizontal to set the depth and the slight loss of resolution is quite tolerable to my eyes. I rarely do this since nearly all my shooting with a single TD10 3D is set to Intelligent Auto. With this nearly all my shots are great looking 3D and never need adjustment in post. Single TD10 shooting is almost all run and gun style so I don't have the time to set adjustments and fiddle with controls.



Wolfgang- When I spoke to the Sony Engineer at CES who is the director of design on the TD10 he said the camcorder lenses were always parallel, no convergence. Two wider than normal sensors slides the images to achieve proper 3D with auto or the 3D knob. Admittedly, the language was an issue in the conversation but he repeated with hand gestures to explain and that was what I got from the discussion. Additionally, I looked at the camera in the display that was shown without the housing, where I could see the internal workings. There was no way the twin cameras could be adjusted for convergence mechanically.


In reality, I think creating a 3D camera with converging lenses, electronically or mechanical adjustment would be quite a feat. But I would love to read some documentation FROM SONY that stated differently. But then that would mean that the guy I spoke with, the project director, didn't know what he had designed.


----------



## relaxman

"if the convergence point is near to the camera, you will end up with a huge disparity in the farpoint "


Of course i only converge, when far point is not visible.

If it's visible, and i need to show a very close object then that's impossible with this cam,

even smaller stereo base is needed. You cannot correct it in NLE either.


"will result in a loss in resolution. "

I prefer to set parallax in TD10, because the cam has not the greatest resolution

in 3D mode and i will preserve this, not to make worse in NLE.


How can be better (less disparity) setting the parallax in post?

It doesn't do the same? It shifts the pictures horizontally.

It's even worse, because lower the resolution.


----------



## Powerplay4

Another video made with the TD10 - Sao Paulo Auto Show 2012 (Brazil):





If you wish to download this video in 3D BLU-RAY, just use the link below the NETLOAD.IN.

This video is in 720p 60Hz 3D format. If you use PowerDVD to watch this video, please select CONFIGURATION 3D DISPLAY, DISPLAY DEVICE tab, the format ENABLED HDMI 1.4 3D TV (720p 60H):
http://netfolder.in/fKWQ3Wc/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012 


or


> Quote:
> http://www.netload.in/dateiBq8OZ2MmK8/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part09.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiP4E8eupJfe/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part08.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiXySYZ7Tcpm/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part20.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiASjlz3H2kM/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part19.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateir9mSIP3XJt/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part18.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateidZLrvLCJLn/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part17.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiwmgaHVydFk/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part16.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiILLpEl6WMh/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part15.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiIoG1iH3ZXX/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part14.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiHjCKfOitGO/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part13.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateijsJGwCg8aG/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part12.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/datei7h07d69ldm/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part11.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiSgrm20fmLr/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part10.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiRZy4DCNSGb/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part07.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateijPmpPjWbrv/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part06.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiMUNffXspLS/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part05.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiwtFMTc9Zyq/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part04.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/datei3RUxwBjslf/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part03.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiZxBn7MqYIx/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part02.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiT2mEcs68wo/BD.3D.ISO.Salao.Automovel.SaoPaulo.2012.part01.rar.htm


Thanks

Milton


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22542824
> 
> 
> Wolfgang- When I spoke to the Sony Engineer at CES who is the director of design on the TD10 he said the camcorder lenses were always parallel, no convergence.



In a mechanical sense, I think it will be treu that the the lenses are always parallel. BUT in terms of actual results that is quite different: play with the convergence knob and you see that you can shift the zero-level. I think they use pixel-movng on the sensors (as all WallEs do), and for the result it makes no difference if they achieve the convergency adjustment by mechanical by electronical means. The result is the same as if you would converge two cameras in terms of total disparity and zero level, beside the fact that we do not end up with at keystone effect.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxman*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22542825
> 
> 
> Of course i only converge, when far point is not visible.



A farpoint will be visible always, also within a closed room. The question is only what the distance between camera and farpoint is.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxman*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22542825
> 
> 
> If it's visible, and i need to show a very close object then that's impossible with this cam,
> 
> even smaller stereo base is needed. You cannot correct it in NLE either.



Sure, you can adjust the total disparity in the footage by adjusting the convergence what is nothing else then a convergence adjustment. By adjusting it with the convergence buttom to the maximal "+" figure. *Give it a try!!*


I agree that the IO is fixed, and for some purposes the IO may be too large, and for others it may be too small. And you cannot correct the shooting is if the overall disparity becomes too large - since that is "hardwired" in your shooting.


BUT if I can extend the range of use by avoiding a disparity that become to high, an dthat is waht you can do with parallel axis, then it is worthwile to do that for situations where it is appropriate.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxman*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22542825
> 
> 
> I prefer to set parallax in TD10, because the cam has not the greatest resolution
> 
> in 3D mode and i will preserve this, not to make worse in NLE.
> 
> How can be better (less disparity) setting the parallax in post?
> 
> It doesn't do the same? It shifts the pictures horizontally.
> 
> It's even worse, because lower the resolution.



Two points:

- resolution is less critical in s3D then in 2D, sin eour barin adjusts that during the fusion process

- you see only the resolution. But you oversee that a shooting with a high disparity will not work, if you go beyond the 6.5 cm eye distance on your screen later. That is scrap and should not be presented, if one wishes to avid headache.


----------



## Don Landis




> Quote:
> If you measure that at the actual results, it may be right that mechanically the lenses are always parallel. BUT in terms of actual results that is quite different.
> 
> 
> They use pixelshifting (as all WallEs do), and it makes no difference if they do the convergency by mechanical means, or by electronical means. The result is the same, beside the fact that we do not end up with at keystone effect.



Language confusion on my part, but if you are saying the adjustment in the camcorder does not ever create a keystone distortion in the "electronical" adjustment, then you agree with the Sony Engineer that designed the TD10.







The two lenses and sensors remain parallel and the image always rectangular.


If you are saying there isn't a way to adjust the angle of the cameras mechanically, then your understanding agrees with how the camcorder is constructed.



Another way to describe the method is to understand that the image pixels in the horizontal is 1920 wide but the actual image captured may be 2000. Then a 1920 count of width is sampled for the actual output image. Where this sampling occurs is set either by auto adjust or by the manual 3D adjust knob. This can create a shift from the parallel image lines to converging or diverging through the mechanically fixed lens. In other words, the _light_ trajectory through the lenses is no longer parallel but angled by the adjustment. The physical lenses themselves remain fixed, parallel. This is how the adjustment can effect a change in the depth.

Also, it is important for the 3D calibration to be set properly for the auto adjust to work.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Don, you know that I am not a native speaker, and from that side I may use wrong words - so sorry that I confuse you.


But I think we have the same understanding about how the TD10 works. I also think that the sensor size is larger then 1920x1080, and they move the pictures. How that is done - well I do not know. I do not think that it is done by moving the beams, since that would again require the mechanical movement of linses. I assume it is done electronically.


But we have facts - also from what we see when we edit the TD10 footage (but also Z10K or TD1 footage). And here we see, that


- we find now keystone effect. Means, that it is not a mechanical movement of the lenses but something different

- we are able to adjust the convegence, and that works really within some limitations. Fine.


So in the endo of the day, I do not care a lot how that is done in my WallEs. But I know that it words.










Don, have you ever tried to shoot with the maximum convergence setting? So where you move the knob with the convergence until you end up with the sign "+ oo" in the display? I have done that, and see in the postpro that you end up with the same as if you adjust the axis to parallel settings. And that is great. Since it allows you to limit the disparity in the farpoint. with parallel axis, you end up with a parallaxis of 3.1 cm in 1m distance, with 3.1 cm in 5m distance but also in 100m. So you can controll that in the farpoint, and that is great. I know, there are endless discussions if one should work with parallel or convergent axis. The point is that it is possible to do both with the TD10 also, to controll the disparity in the far point really.


Because you said that you can do a change in depth. Well, my understanding is that the depth budget is defined by the IO mainly, beside the focal length. BUT you will not change the depth budget (so the overall distance between farpoint and nearpoint) by the convergence. That will adjust the distance and position of the zero-level only.


----------



## relaxman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22543289
> 
> 
> A farpoint will be visible always, also within a closed room. The question is only what the distance between camera and farpoint is.



Ok, let me write with another words:

I only converge, when needed AND the farthest point willn't be more that 6,5cm horizontally on my big screen.


"resolution is less critical in s3D then in 2D"


Don't agree. Resolution (at least for my eyes) is critical also in 3D. Yes, i see the depth with lower resolution video,

and by many people this also make a WOW factor, but for me, a sharp 3D video give much more WOW factor.


"sin eour barin adjusts that during the fusion process"

What adjust? Then why we shoot in HD and not in SD in 3D?


"But you oversee that a shooting with a high disparity will not work, if you go beyond the 6.5 cm "


See above, i don't go beyond 6,5cm.


"That is scrap and should not be presented"

Agree. My question is, why is parallax adjust better in post with resolution loss,

than with in camera method?


TD10 use a much wider sensor that full hd because of the possibility of adjusting parallax.

In fact, 2D mode is sharper exactly because it use the full sensor area.


regards


----------



## Wolfgang S.

The adjustment in the sharpness takes place in our brains also, because our two eyes receive two pictures, that are merged in our brains to one s3D picture. Since you merge TWO HD pictures, even with some loss in resolution our brain will receive still a good picture - at least to some extend. If you focus yourself very strong to resolution, you should

- shoot in 1080 24p instead of 1080 50i/60i, since a progressive picture is better here compared to an interlaced one (where interline flicker between lines reduces resolution)

- use active presentation systems, but not passive ones (since passive systems reduce the resolution to the half)


And yes, you will ge beyond 6.5 cm if you shoot in a situation where hte nearpoint is not far away, so where you converge to the nearpoint, and the farpoint is really not near. In such a situation you will end up with a higher disparity, even if that depends from your screen size.


To shoot with parallel axis can be better, since here you will be able to reduce disparity to a low number in BOTH nearpoint and farpoint. The overall disparity in the footage is here limited to the IO of 3.1 cm, while it can be larger, especially with strong object convergence to a near object.


In terms of 2D resolution, the TD10 is not as strong as I would like it to have. Here you really see some weaknesses compared to other cameras, e.g. the Panasonics 2D cameras. Remember, the TD20 has become better here.

It is also not right to say that the resolution is better in 2D - in 3D you use two sensors, but in 2D only one. But you can review some measumrents aboult line-pairs that show that quite well.


----------



## relaxman

"even with some loss in resolution our brain will receive still a good picture "

OK, good picture, but without adjusting parallax in post, our brain receive a better (sharper) picture.

I prefer this.


" If you focus yourself very strong to resolution"

No, i simply like and prefer the sharper video in 2D and also in 3D..


"shoot in 1080 24p "

I shoot with cam what i have, and since TD10 cannot do 24p 3D, this question is not exist,

only with camera upgrade









I use active and passive systems too. And true, both method has advantages, and disadvantages.


"In such a situation you will end up with a higher disparity"

And with your method (change parallax in post) the situation is the same, isn't?


Sorry, i don't understand you here:

"It is also not right to say that the resolution is better in 2D - in 3D you use two sensors, but in 2D only one"


And? In 2D cam use the full sensor, in 3D not. That's the difference.[/quote]

I compared the resolution, 2D was a lot better.


----------



## Don Landis

Wolfgang-


No, I have not experimented with extreme adjustments. When I first got the camcorder, I played around with the manual adjust but discovered the results were not good and many shots did not look right in 3D. So, after spending some time with the training videos on how to achieve the best results, with the TD10, I settled in on allowing the camcorder to do the thinking for me and then concentrate on framing and setting exposure manually. I'm sure it isn't as creative but I could not see any advantage to all the time spent in manipulating the 3D adjust control then finding many of the shots poorly done for 3D.


relaxman- better image resolution in 2D has other possibilities too. In addition to what Wolfgang said, I think the bit rate for the 2D is higher than in 3D. I see this when using the TD10's in twin 2D mode. Here the image is more intense and sharper than what I see with single 3D TD10

In 2D mode only the left cmos is used and the 1920 pixel image is sampled from the center, not full size and then scaled down. The TD20 uses a higher density sensor, but smaller optics so some think it may be a wash on resolution. I haven't seen any good resolution tests.


BTW- What's the purpose of the discussion, better understanding on how the TD10 works or how to shoot better 3D, or how to have greater control over the recording 3D Depth? If the later, then I think that is only possible with controlling physical IA. But that's just my opinion.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxman*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22543810
> 
> 
> "In such a situation you will end up with a higher disparity"
> 
> And with your method (change parallax in post) the situation is the same, isn't?



It is fundamental geometry (some may call it the theorem of intersection lines): two lines, that are parallel at 3.1 cm, will have that distance of 3.1 cm also in 10m or 100m or 1000m. But two lines, that are crossed in a point 2 or 3 m in front of the camera, will have an increase in distance after this crossing point. Distance will become larger then 3.1 cm after some meters.


And no, that is nothing that you can correct in the post - because you have this distance in your footage.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxman*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22543810
> 
> 
> Sorry, i don't understand you here:
> 
> "It is also not right to say that the resolution is better in 2D - in 3D you use two sensors, but in 2D only one"
> 
> And? In 2D cam use the full sensor, in 3D not. That's the difference.
> 
> I compared the resolution, 2D was a lot better.



It is simple. Check the technical specifications. The TD10 has two 1/4inch sensors. TWO. If you shoot in s3D, it uses the two sensors. If you shoot in 2D, it uses only one.


It is not so that you share one sensor for 3D, as it is done in the Panasonic models like the Pana 750.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22544844
> 
> 
> Wolfgang-No, I have not experimented with extreme adjustments.



That is the funny point here. To shoot with parallel axis is best practise in s3D for a lot of people, funny that you have to go to extreme adjustmens with a TD10 (+oo) or Z10K (C99) to adjust the cameras to parallel shooting.


But everybody can do it as he likes. I know from a lot of testing that the drop in resolution is not remarkable if you do it in NLEs like Vegas or Edius, but the adjustment in convergence and the control of disparity is more important. And I have seen a lot of cases where the adjustment of the convergence in the post is necessary even with convergent axis.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22544844
> 
> 
> Wolfgang-No, I have not experimented with extreme adjustments.


When I first got the camcorder, I played around with the manual adjust but discovered the results were not good and many shots did not look right in 3D. So, after spending some time with the training videos on how to achieve the best results, with the TD10, I settled in on allowing the camcorder to do the thinking for me and then concentrate on framing and setting exposure manually. [/quote]


I do the same. I set the camera to object convergence in smaller rooms mainly. But I set it to parallel axis where I am faced by larger distances. And do not care about the convergence adjustment during the shoot but do that in the post.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22544844
> 
> 
> BTW- What's the purpose of the discussion, better understanding on how the TD10 works or how to shoot better 3D, or how to have greater control over the recording 3D Depth? If the later, then I think that is only possible with controlling physical IA. But that's just my opinion.



Well I would say it is both: how to shoot with the TD10 but also how to shoot better 3D. That brings us to a little bit theory about the s3D, but also about how to implement that theory with the TD10. But I know, a lot of people never tried to explore what happens with "+oo", and do not care about what parallel axis and disparities are really. I have seen that in a lot of discussions.


----------



## relaxman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22544844
> 
> 
> the bit rate for the 2D is higher than in 3D


Yes, it is true, but for static scenes this cannot degrade the resolution so much.

Try with a simple resolution chart. Higher bitrate is needed mainly for moving scenes, with lots of details.

A "still picture" is also sharper in 2D.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22544844
> 
> 
> In 2D mode only the left cmos is used and the 1920 pixel image is sampled from the center, not full size and then scaled down.



Do you have some official document about thi?

I don't know for sure, but please explain why in 2D mode FOV is bigger than in 3D mode?

(electronic stabilization is OFF).


When our cam use the whole sensor area this easily explain:

-the sharper picture

-and the wider FOV


Wolfgang:


"If you shoot in s3D, it uses the two sensors. If you shoot in 2D, it uses only one."


Exactly.


"It is not so that you share one sensor for 3D, as it is done in the Panasonic models like the Pana 750."

I don't say this.


In 3D mode left sensor create the left picture, but not use the full area.

In 2D mode left sensor what only works, but with full area.


regards


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Well, that is a nice discussion - but I ask myself if it is helpfull really. I think the TD10 is a nice unit for a consumer unit, and I still like to use it for situations where I will not use the Z10000 because of the attention you catch with such a unit.


We CANNOT change the datarates that are used in the TD10 for 2D, we CANNOT change the datarates tht are used for 3D. We CANNOT change the sensor size or how it is used. But what we can do is to find out how to use the unit in the best way. And my results are really simple:


- in smaller rooms, object convergence is fine and can be used

- if the farpoint is at a higher distance, I always tend to switch to parallel axis/mode (however that is done in the unit) since I will have significant advantages in editing (limited disparity, limited ghosting)

- I do not care a lot about small losses in resolution due to cropping, since both Vegas but also Edius have great scaler and will not drop the quality of the footage significantly

- A major drop in quality can take place if you burn the footage to 720 50p/60p for MVC-based 3D-BDs. That can be avoided (for the home use) by using AVCHD 2.0/AVCHD 3D, in combinations like PMH and Edius 6.52 or PMH and Pinnacle Studio 16. If I handover the discs to somebody else, I have to take care about his 3D-BD-Player (AVCHD 2.0 is available in newer models only).


To my opinion, that is it.


----------



## relaxman

" I ask myself if it is helpfull really"


Yes, the discussion is helpful. So people can better decide if they set parallax in camera or in post.


Sorry, i only wrote because you sayed:

"It is better to shoot with parallel axis, to avoid a high disparity in the farpoint"

I thinked you mean here ALWAYS shoot that way, and never use the parallax knob.


Now you say:

"in smaller rooms, object convergence is fine and can be used"


I agree with this.


Yes, Vegas has a great scaler, but in digital world this will reduce quality, and i see it










If the in cam parallax method is the same as the post method just without loosing a little

resolutin, i choose this.


----------



## Wolfgang S.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxman*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22545957
> 
> 
> I thinked you mean here ALWAYS shoot that way, and never use the parallax knob.
> 
> Now you say:
> 
> "in smaller rooms, object convergence is fine and can be used"
> 
> I agree with this.



No, I said that in the very beginning - see post 1460.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxman*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22545957
> 
> 
> Yes, Vegas has a great scaler, but in digital world this will reduce quality, and i see it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the in cam parallax method is the same as the post method just without loosing a little
> 
> resolutin, i choose this.



You have to answer yourself following questions - and then you have to decide what you do:


1. Do I want to edit the s3D movies at all?


2. If yes, then tools like Edius or Vegas are a good choice (beside others, but for those tools the quality is fine.

But if you say yes, then you run into some quality losses:

2a. loss due to render losses (maybe acceptable)

2b loss du to resizing for 3D-BD (to 1080 24p, 720 50p/60p (significanter)


3. If no, you can use the PMB/PMH

3a eliminates 2a and 2b, but you have very very limited editing capabilities

3b playback is limited to new 3D-BD-Players with AVCHD 2.0 capabilities

3c no adjustment of disparity in the PMB possilbe, means you have to get the disparity right when shooting


3. How do you want to make the playback?

3a with MVC-based 3D-BD according to the BD-ROM specification, you have universall playback capabilities (but the resizing issue in 2b)

3b with AVCHD 2.0 3D-BD Player, you will loose mainly 2a and for sure 2b but have to choose the right tools

3c with playback fromt he laptop and stereoscopic player, the world looks different (but you have 2a for sure).


4. How do you want to shoot?

4a parallel or converged

4b do you do an adjustement in the post for the disparity?



With Pinnacle Studio 16 you can render to a muxed file with a high data rate of 40 Mbps. - what seems to be great. But the editing capabilies are not soo great. But you can use the PMH too.


The sequence of the questions does not matter - but they are interlinked. So there are different solution possibilities - for different people.


----------



## JOAT09

*Viewfinder for TD10*



In the past some contributions were talking about the brightness of the screen in 2D/3D. To see

the great screen TD10 only need avoid dazzling the eye with a screen protector and have the best

viewfinder for the TD10, I built one with a truncated pyramid (image) made ​​of black

polypropylene from a notebook cover.

The result is perfect for shooting in sunlight (the beach or the mountains).

The shield is disassembled and provides room to operate the touch screen.


Regards

O.Alda


----------



## MLXXX

A neat looking viewing shield, JOAT09.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Powerplay4*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22543038
> 
> 
> Another video made with the TD10 - Sao Paulo Auto Show 2012 (Brazil)
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Milton


I find the Sony HDR-TD10 at moderate shooting distances gives just the right amount of intensity of stereoscopic effect to suit my vision, with a minimum of fuss. For me, Milton's video gives a very natural effect.


(I note that the display behind the dancers was obviously in 2D, with an incorrect aspect ratio that made the dancers look as if they were carrying quite a few extra pounds!)


----------



## Powerplay4

There follows another video made with TD10:


Christmas on HSBC 2012 - 3D:





Christmas on HSBC 2012 - 2D:






If you wish to download this video in ISO 3D format Blu-ray 1280x720/60p, follow the links:


> Quote:
> http://www.netload.in/dateixg1XOdewM2/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part10.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateioncoAPWbz7/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part11.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateia7sFrvB7FO/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part13.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiL2EnWfex56/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part16.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateifLPjVlLUHs/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part14.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiS5Ramz9WMu/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part18.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiV0dpODzWdo/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part17.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiU0wODUoDw3/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part07.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/datei69rWw2eutT/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part06.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateivdN3qbwi9G/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part15.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiMbDpmF0y1W/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part08.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/datei4tNLRbNylg/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part09.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateigqAEC8ioPB/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part12.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateixRwi44q7Y6/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part03.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateicXve9WwIXO/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part02.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/datei1I4wSiulE7/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part05.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateibXM1ZgW7bK/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part01.rar.htm
> http://www.netload.in/dateiA3qdtVhdgs/Natal.do.HSBC.2012.3D.part04.rar.htm



Thanks,

Milton


----------



## MLXXX




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Powerplay4*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22664155
> 
> 
> There follows another video made with TD10:
> 
> 
> Christmas on HSBC 2012 - 3D:


Thanks for this, Milton; a colourful entertainment at night using a small stage protruding from the corner of a hotel, and with additional performers appearing in numerous rooms of the hotel.


Nighttime shots are always challenging. The TD10, often prone to overexposure, did over-expose the stage in distant shots, but when the camera zoomed in, the stage looked fine.


For my eyes, there was a sufficiently powerful 3D effect, and it added to the interest of the show.

Cheers


----------



## Don Landis

Merry Christmas to all TD-10 lovers.


Here is a 3D video full of bubbles to fill your viewing room shot with the TD10.






And here is a 3D video of "Celebrate the Magic" and "Wishes" I shot in a tightly packed crowd of tens of thousands of people pushing a shoving. Sorry, no room for a tripod. All hand held. Getting memories like this is why I love the TD10. I had my twin rig with me but kept it packed in my backpack. Sometimes I have to adjust my plans for the shooting conditions.


----------



## MLXXX




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22742452
> 
> 
> Merry Christmas to all TD-10 lovers.
> 
> 
> ~
> 
> 
> And here is a 3D video of "Celebrate the Magic" and "Wishes" I shot in a tightly packed crowd of tens of thousands of people pushing a shoving. Sorry, no room for a tripod. All hand held. Getting memories like this is why I love the TD10. I had my twin rig with me but kept it packed in my backpack. Sometimes I have to adjust my plans for the shooting conditions.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyCfWbTKvAk


You showed some stamina there, Don, keeping the TD-10 pointed in the right direction for so long.


Disney certainly know how to animate a castle, and weave that special Disney magic.


I note the TD-10, even at the distance it must have been, captured a noticeable 3D effect, adding interest. If I close one eye, the castle suddenly becomes quite flat.


----------



## Don Landis

Did I mention, the Td10 was in full auto mode except for exposure and focus. At night auto focus and exposure is rarely recommended. But the 3D was calibrated the day before and I didn't do any adjustment in Vegas Pro.


Thanks for the compliment on shooting in the crowd. I often miss the clearance crowds gave me when I shot with the big cameras. But the TD 10 doesn't weigh 25 pounds and batteries only last for 30 minutes either.


----------



## Don Landis

Speaking of 25 pound cameras, I'm here in Las Vegas this week for the CES show and will be testing out my rig that will use two Nex5n with different wide angle lenses, 10 mm, 12 mm, and 16mm, with ~20 inch IA. In the center between these two cameras, I have a second fluid head for independent control of my TD10 to shoot close ups. The plan is to shoot the Bellagio Fountain with this extreme wide angle rig. It weighs in at 26 pounds. Hopefully the plan works, but I expect I will be on a learning curve here too. I had planned to test this at Disney but the crowds made me abort and shoot with just a TD10 hand held.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1440#post_22790613
> 
> 
> Speaking of 25 pound cameras, I'm here in Las Vegas this week for the CES show and will be testing out my rig that will use two Nex5n with different wide angle lenses, 10 mm, 12 mm, and 16mm, with ~20 inch IA. In the center between these two cameras, I have a second fluid head for independent control of my TD10 to shoot close ups. The plan is to shoot the Bellagio Fountain with this extreme wide angle rig. It weighs in at 26 pounds. Hopefully the plan works, but I expect I will be on a learning curve here too. I had planned to test this at Disney but the crowds made me abort and shoot with just a TD10 hand held.



I don't think the Red laser projector is going to be at CES this year, Don, but if it is would you mind checking it out. I'd like to find out what you think of it, especially in comparison to your Sony projector. It should be closer to final production by now. I haven't heard any rumors of new 3D cameras, but I'm sure you'll be on the lookout for those. Looking forward to your reports.


----------



## SoloForce

Hello. I'm somewhat new to the AVS Forum.

And definitely late for this game. I didn't know you TD-10 people were here.

I have to do some reading and catch up.


But I stumbled upon your TD-10 forum last night and NOTED.

But today I posted some info for others on a 3D Projector forum, and wanted to share here also.

Incase you haven't seen it. Or maybe know of another Calibration Disc or File already.



Be Joining in the discussions later!

Here's my new info below for Calibration for 3D Auto Modes on TV/PROJECTORS.




SOLOFORCE 3D Blu-Ray Calibration Pattern Disc for 3D Blu-Ray Players

(will throw your projector into 3D AUTO mode) Image will look 2D except for OPENING title.

IT WILL SWITCH DEPTHS. BECOME GHOSTY cause of the BRIGHT LETTERS ON BLACK. (Normal)


If you know how to calibrate your TV/Projector, and have the BLUE FILTER Lens

(Like the one from the WOW disc) you will be able to Calibrate COLOUR, and TINT, more accurately.


This is the link for the .ISO. Burn this to a BLU-RAY Disc, with the proper .ISO burning program...and you are set.

http://netload.in/dateiC6mazm1glI/SoloForce3D.iso.htm 




SOLOFORCE 3D Calibration Pattern .MKV file for SBS Mode on your TV/PROJECTOR

Switch your TV/PROJECTOR into SIDE BY SIDE MODE when using this file.

Some Blu-Ray Players with USB accept .MKV Files. or Media Centers.

Note: The 3D settings for your projector are different when using SBS or AUTO.

The only way to calibrate in AUTO is with a 3D Blu-Ray Calibration Disc as above.

(That's what I've found anyway)


This is the link for the .MKV file for SIDE BY SIDE Calibration.

http://netload.in/dateiLmKS5nfC4d/SoloForce3DCALIBRATIONSBS1080.mkv.htm 




SOLOFORCE 3D Calibration Pattern .M2TS file for SBS Mode on your TV/PROJECTOR

All the same information about the .MKV file but in .M2TS format.

.M2TS formats can play from a USB on your playstation 3. And again this is for SIDE BY SIDE Mode


This is the link for the .M2TS file for SIDE BY SIDE Calibration.

http://netload.in/datei5XWWgRzRsq/SoloForce3DCALIBRATIONSBS1080.m2ts.htm 



GOOD LUCK!!!


iMIKE THEATRE


----------



## Andrew_Woods

At CES, Sony has just announced another new 3D HD camcorder - the HDR-TD30V.
http://www.ubergizmo.com/2013/01/sony-hdr-td30v-handycam-camcorder/ 

Although I still suspect the TD10 is still the pick of the bunch with its 33mm lens separation, the release of this new model demonstrates Sony's continued confidence in the 3D market.

I haven't determined the lens separation of this new model, but it looks similar to the TD20.


----------



## SoloForce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Powerplay4*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22198299
> 
> 
> Another video made with the TD10 - Barigui Park (Curitiba - Brazil):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to download this video in Blu-ray 3D MVC (ISO file) without compression of Youtube, follow the links:
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Milton



Very Nice. I'm late to this forum. So I apologize if this has already been answered.


Edited in Vegas 11 ?


Out put template ?


And how did you achieve your dolly shots?


Thanks.

iMIKE THEATRE


----------



## Don Landis

Thanks for the story link Andrew. Can you repost your TD30 info in the thread already started on the TD30 ? This is the TD10 thread.


----------



## Powerplay4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SoloForce*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1470#post_22809081
> 
> 
> Very Nice. I'm late to this forum. So I apologize if this has already been answered.
> 
> 
> Edited in Vegas 11 ?
> 
> 
> Out put template ?
> 
> 
> And how did you achieve your dolly shots?
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> iMIKE THEATRE



Yes, was edited with Sony Vegas 11.


The template is: 1920x1080, interlaced Upper field first, frame rate 29,970, side by side (half). Render with template Sony AVC/MVC MP4, frame rate 59,940, progressive scan, bit rate 25,999,360.


The slider is Konova Slider.


Milton


----------



## SoloForce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Powerplay4*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1470#post_22829542
> 
> 
> Yes, was edited with Sony Vegas 11.
> 
> 
> The template is: 1920x1080, interlaced Upper field first, frame rate 29,970, side by side (half). Render with template Sony AVC/MVC MP4, frame rate 59,940, progressive scan, bit rate 25,999,360.
> 
> 
> The slider is Konova Slider.
> 
> 
> Milton



Thank you very much.

So I am to understand the your first template was for H SBS, and the Second Template is your FULL 3D Bluray .iso?

iMIKE THEATRE


----------



## 3DMOVIEMAN






Funny Brazilian Jiu Jitsu match at the 2013 Springfield Open

sponsored by the American Grappling Federation. Shot with a

Sony TD10 and edited with EDIUS 6.5


----------



## Jan Sobr

Hallo everyone here, I am new to this forum. I´d like to ask someone for help with an issue regarding my TD10. (I apologize if this was discussed here before, maybe I did not search thoroughly).......Does anyone here have an experience with attaching a telephoto lens to the front of the TD10? I am planning to shoot a wildlife documentary and therefore I´ll need to somehow increase the zoom capabilities of the TD10 to be able to shoot on long distances. I have learned that Cyclopital makes lens mount adapter for the TD10 which has 86 mm thread on it, so with the series of step-down rings I should be able to pair my TD10 with, say, the Vivitar 22-72 telephoto lens. But here comes the BUT. Since I mostly shoot in 2D and the TD10 uses only its right eye for 2D shooting (if I remember well), there is gonna be a little off-axis thing going on. Simply said - the TD10´s lens won´t line up with the telephoto lens. I must admit, beeing a technical rookie, I have no clue what this could cause to the footage. Please help me someone.....Or if you have some other suggestions on adding a telephoto to the TD10......Thanks in advance.....Jan


----------



## dfergie

Don would probably be the one to answer that...


----------



## Don Landis

Jan Sobr- Welcome to the forum!










You have a pretty good handle on the problems already. While not impossible, it would be a bit clumsy to achieve. I think it was cyclopital that resolved the issue with wide angle by using two wide angle lenses that line up on each camera axis. The same configuration adapter would need to be done with a 2X multiplier for getting 20x optical or 34x digital. I don't know how much you need but for 2D, it's probably a better idea to just get a better 2D camcorder with a simple single lens mount. Most serious shooters carry several cameras that do what they do well but none do everything the best.


----------



## Jan Sobr

Hello, Don, I was hoping you´ll chime in - I´ve read lot of your posts here and I appreciate your knowledge. So thank you very much for your answer.............you exactly summed up what I was afraid of....a tele add-on with 2 separate lenses....Oops.







As far as I like 3D footage that the TD-10 produces, now it seems clear that it is not suitable for serious 2D work........Now I´ll have to try to trade it in for sth. geared more towards my needs - maybe NEX VG-30? Anyway, thanks a lot, Don ! J.


----------



## Don Landis

I think you are on the right track, plus, the point of shooting telephoto 3D is somewhat self defeating with the small Interaxial as the distant objects will flatten out anyway. That's why I use twin cameras on a wide bench for distant shooting.


I think you are on the right track for a really good 2D video camera in the VG30. I like the ability to put prime lenses on it. For you, maybe you'll be interested in one of those 800mm beasts. I would own one of the VG30's here if I was into 2D again. You see, I have quite a collection of wide angle prime Sony e lenses and converters now. I also have the 18-200 and really like it for my NEX 5n. But the 18-200mm for the VG30 also has power zoom which you don't want to be without in a video kit. When I shoot Video with my NEX system, I miss having power zoom.


But, if you get back into 3D, all you'll need to do is buy a second one and a home made bench.


----------



## ThomasAJonsson

Hello. I'm somewhat new to the AVS Forum.

And definitely late but definitely hot for this game. I didn't know you TD-10 people were here.

I have to done some reading and tried to catch up just reading all these 50 pages. It took me two days. I learned allot.










I have own this Sony HDR-TD10 for 7month now. I just love it. Because I started late compere to you I luckily missed lots of your starting problems. I am editing everything in CyberLink PowerDirector 10, which runs smooth on my computer. I use to watch my 3D videos on my 27inch PC-monitor Samsung SyncMaster TA950. I always do the avchd solution with MVC. This is so I can watch the videos in 3D with active glasses in full resolution 1080i.


My favorite object is our daughter Andrea 8years old. I shot hours on her.

Now to my problems: I shoot allot indoors so I would love to have a wide-angle or a fish eye.

I have already seen that you guys are familiar with Cyclopital 3D accessories. (I would like to by all of their assessors for TD 10) As you mentioned it looks like they have miss the fact that TD 10 has a surround mike just under its lens and there is no opening so the mike can catch the sound. Anyone who has experience of this sound recording problem? In fact it looks like the adapters encapsulate the mike. This must led to the fact that the recorded sound will become very low and dull.

Anyone who has tried the quality of these lenses to add for getting bigger angle to catch video objects with and increasing the 3D depth with? The lenses on TD 10 have very good quality according me.

Unfortunately for me it looks like no one of you has tried these assessors. Maybe they are no god and their four out of interest for you but if there are some experiences I would be very thankful to know.

Sorry for my broken and bad English, I live in Sweden, Scandinavia, northern Europa


----------



## Roger Gunkel

Joseph Clarke in the JVC TD1 thread has a reviewd the Cyclopital Stereo Base Extender for that camera and I would expect a similar result on the TD10. The Cyclopital site also has an example video showing the differences, which I believe that Joe shot. The results looked pretty impressive for greater depth from an increased fixed base extender.


Roger


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Fine, but be aware that there will be a minimum distance with a solution like the Cycloptial. So for indoor shooting that can be an issue, depending on the size of the room. But sure, it increases the IO and the depth.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ThomasAJonsson*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1470#post_22909048
> 
> 
> Hello. I'm somewhat new to the AVS Forum.
> 
> And definitely late but definitely hot for this game. I didn't know you TD-10 people were here.
> 
> I have to done some reading and tried to catch up just reading all these 50 pages. It took me two days. I learned allot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have own this Sony HDR-TD10 for 7month now. I just love it. Because I started late compere to you I luckily missed lots of your starting problems. I am editing everything in CyberLink PowerDirector 10, which runs smooth on my computer. I use to watch my 3D videos on my 27inch PC-monitor Samsung SyncMaster TA950. I always do the avchd solution with MVC. This is so I can watch the videos in 3D with active glasses in full resolution 1080i.
> 
> 
> My favorite object is our daughter Andrea 8years old. I shot hours on her.
> 
> Now to my problems: I shoot allot indoors so I would love to have a wide-angle or a fish eye.
> 
> I have already seen that you guys are familiar with Cyclopital 3D accessories. (I would like to by all of their assessors for TD 10) As you mentioned it looks like they have miss the fact that TD 10 has a surround mike just under its lens and there is no opening so the mike can catch the sound. Anyone who has experience of this sound recording problem? In fact it looks like the adapters encapsulate the mike. This must led to the fact that the recorded sound will become very low and dull.
> 
> Anyone who has tried the quality of these lenses to add for getting bigger angle to catch video objects with and increasing the 3D depth with? The lenses on TD 10 have very good quality according me.
> 
> Unfortunately for me it looks like no one of you has tried these assessors. Maybe they are no god and their four out of interest for you but if there are some experiences I would be very thankful to know.
> 
> Sorry for my broken and bad English, I live in Sweden, Scandinavia, northern Europa



Hi, Thomas and welcome to AVS. The Sony TD10 and the JVC TD1 have a lot in common, including a stereo base that is almost identical. Shooting yields very similar results in many ways, and the Cyclopital3D adapters perform very much the same. I don't know a lot about the Sony, since I don't own one, but the JVC adapters are designed to leave the microphones mostly unobstructed. Have you thought about adding an external mic? I have a Sony Bluetooth external wireless that works pretty well, but it's stereo only. There are lots of options. The wide angle adapters are very useful for my JVC - two regular wide angles and a fisheye. I think the Sony has only the two wide angles. IIRC, a fisheye adapter wouldn't work because of the Sony's design. The wide angle adapters are great, but they don't change the stereo base. The stereo base extender increases the sense of depth and roundness dramatically, but you lose the wide angle range from the normal lenses. This is unavoidable, without making the SBE too large for practical use, but whenever possible I use it. The closest object in the scene shouldn't be any closer than about 12 feet, and it's a little harder to set up shots, but when it can be used the difference is amazing.


----------



## Don Landis

Thomas- I have my TD10 modified for adding filters and done the way I did it does not muffle the audio. I use a 77mm threaded ring from a low coast UV filter with the glass removed. This ring is mounted with glue to the front lens flange of the TD10. It fits perfectly. Now I can screw on any 77mm filter and filter both camera lenses. The top of the ring is backed with some black plastic sheet cut to fit and glued in place. The bottom that is infront of the microphones are left open. I think the Cyclopital kit blocks all these mics on the TD10. On the second image the top back of the filter is blocked with the plastic to prevent back glare from reflecting on the filter and glaring out the camera.


----------



## ThomasAJonsson

Thank you for your kind answers and advises.










Because you told me that JVC GS-TD1 and SONY HDR-TD10 are quite the same camera and there is a thread for JVC GS-TD1 I have to read this one too. It’s a long one so it will give me some days of pleasure reading.










It seems like your Pro have the same problem s as I, consumer/ enthusiastic amateur, have. To create BRD 3D 5.1 with menus’. I also have half of my relatives in America and the other half here in Europe. They all are hungry for my videos BRD 3D 5.1 with menus’. They don’t know about all the problems there are. So fare I have done my 3D videos in PowerDirector.


I’m curious about making this rig for 2 SONY HDR-TD10, this will make it possible to achieve 1080p. The problem is that I don’t have a knowledge to edit this material with 2 captured videos in 1080p 5.1. How to make it to one MVC-movie?


/Thomas


----------



## Don Landis

Thomas- Vegas Pro is the best editor to handle all types of 3D content and easy to make paired video for Blu ray 3D.


I have Power director too but use it only when I want 3D menus and DTS 5.1 sound track. Here I still start with Vegas Pro for basic editing the program then complete with Power Director. The JVC also has no 5.1 audio so you would need to create that in post from your own source. I think Joe Clark sticks with stereo for his productions.


BUT- be advised that Vegas Pro is not compatible with the JVC file format. Joe Clark describes a better work flow for JVC camcorders. There are a number of differences in how you have to work with the JVC as compared with many other 3D cameras due to the special file format. Also, you need to consider the problems of shooting and editing for PAL or ATSC standards too. Wolfgang, is familiar with the PAL versions of these files. But he does not use a JVC either.


Pairing two Sony TD10's will permit you to shoot 1080 24p or even 1080 60p since you put the camcorders in 2D mode for the shoot giving you additional format options. This also will improve the bit rate for your compression. But, JVC is still a higher bit rate for their 3D files than the Sony TD10.

But taking two videos shot the same way for 3D "pairing" is east. In Vegas Pro you line up the two clips on the timeline one above the other, left eye file on top. Use the sound to sync the two clips precise to a single frame. Select each, then "pair" the two clips in the drop down menu selection. You may need to calibrate the clips alignment for best results. This calibration is done in Vegas Pro with an effect assigned to the clip. Pretty easy. Now you can delete one of the audio timelines and begin to edit the 3D paired video just like any other 3D clip.


I only did 1080 60p shooting as an experiment since it has no way to be compatible with any playback system I have. 1080-24p is my favorite standard for either burn to BD-R or render to a file for playback in my home theater, or even distribute for other to play. I also have no problem with shooting 1080 60i and let Vegas Pro de-interlace and convert to 1080-24p. For the most part, the conversion is pretty good. Once in awhile a pan is too fast and some vertical lines in the image will get separated but that is rare.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

The PAL versions of two TD10s will allow to shoot in 1080 25p - unfortunately not 1080 24p - or in 1080 50p, beside 1080 50i. I tend to use 1080 50p, since it is a format that allows me to create every other format like 1080 24p, 1080 25p or 1080 50i. But be aware that pairing two 1080 50p streams is something that takes a lot of ressources in the preview - both in Edius but also in Vegas. So from that side it can be better to shoot in 1080 25p if you use PAL cameras, render to 1080 25p, import the result again in Vegas and stretch the timeline to come up with 1080 24p what can be burned to a 3D BD.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Yes, I recommend Edius 6.5 to anyone who uses the JVC. There's no way I would want to be without it in my workflow. Now that menus can be created in Vegas (even though they're 2D only), Edius and Vegas will probably be the only editing programs I use most of the time. I'll use Edius to edit the video, export the files, and then create menus and render to 24p Blu-ray 3D in Vegas. I do 5.1 audio editing in Vegas, where it's very easy and intuitive IMO. Multi-channel audio editing in Edius still confuses me. I have a lot to learn there. The area which has caused me grief in the past is the transfer of the Vegas 5.1 audio to PowerDirector, and the fact that the video quality takes too big a hit for my taste most of the time. I wish Vegas allowed for a higher bit rate in the render to Blu-ray 3D, but I think they feel they have to maintain a clear distinction from higher cost products. Still, rendering 24p at 25mbps in Vegas makes for some great looking 3D.


----------



## ThomasAJonsson

Thank you for all your advices.










I had to read for several days to catch up with all these fantastic threads. Unfortunately I had troubles with watching some of the videos in the threads, “Error (404) We can't find the page you're looking for. Check out our Help Center and forums for help, or head back to home”. All the points to other threads that I have to read and follow up took some time to catch-up with to but it is fantastic and interesting. I learn allot.










So fare I have ordered the book, MENDIBURU, BERNARD: 3D MOVIE MAKING to catch up with all this witch I have to know about 3D, and I have ordered a hood: Hoodman 4-inch Widescreen LCD Hood - Hoodman HD450. So I will be able to see what I shoot in the sun. Before I have to guess pretty much what I’m catching, thank you Don Landis . I have also bought a TimeLaps sender from Scotland (I already love their whiskey) so I assume I will like this one to.


(This is maybe for the thread JVC GS-TD1, where I read about it and saw video too, but I get good hints from Roger Gunkel and Joseph Clark, in this thread, thank you) I was very impressed by the little family movie in 3D with TimeLaps made by “JoeFourMan” JVC Sams grass 3d 60i. It is a way of shooting the everyday life with family happenings and friends happenings, I really enjoyed it. Since I saw that film “JVC Sams grass 3d 60i” I have to figure out how the heck he did this TimeLaps shoot. After a while I discovered that the JVC GS-TD1 3D is equipped with this toy. Then I discovered “gentLED-AUTO” on internet it makes it possible to shoot TimeLaps with our SONY HDR TD10 as well. The Camera in this movie “JVC Sams grass 3d 60i” is in this movie is equipped with the “Cyclopital3D Wide-Angle Lens” and this is what I liked to see to but for SONY HDR TD10. I think it is as you say the JVC and SONY are very similar cameras. But I fear bad sound when I use it on a SONY.


In another of the “side threads” witch I followed was about two cameras and of course the progressive catching. The thread was “When small interaxials just don't cut it!” In this tread I got hints to some of these videos that were catch with two cameras apart. It was amazing to see the 3D depth of these shots on such a distance, fantastic. I just don’t understand why …..but I received a tremendous headache after this movies. This I never had with the 3D solution of one camera. Somewhere I read it is possible to train your eyes for 3D….so maybe my eyes are 3D beginners. Well it was then I decided to order the book, 3D MOVIE MAKING. I love the fantastic movie “Bryce Canyon National Park in 3D”. Maybe I have to be satisfied with catching 3D with just one camera. I don’t get headache then, but I will miss the possibility to catches it in Progressive with fps instead of the interlaced way I have now. It makes every fast move with blur contours. Maybe in the end of this year I can afford a bigger TV with 3D or a new projector with 3D. Then I will see and discover if I still get the headache of films with two cameras. Now my 3D watching is just 27inch.


Thomas


----------



## Joseph Clark

Hi, Thomas,


The missing videos were probably mine. I typically place videos in my Dropbox account for people to download or watch, then delete them as the 2 GB of free space fills up. You'll get errors because the old files are gone.


My eyes are "trained" for 3D. I find it very easy to converge very widely diverged 3D images. For everyone, it depends on the size of the screen, the distance from the screen, and the degree of separation of all the objects within the left/right frames. Smaller screens are much easier to converge, because the maximum distance that separates the left/right views is smaller. The bigger the screen, the bigger your headaches are likely to be, at least until you condition your eyes. Once the degree of separation of objects in the left/right views exceeds a certain amount, almost everyone will be unable to converge them. That will cause headaches, or at least severe discomfort while watching. That's the reason your Sony isn't nearly as likely to cause headaches. Like the JVC, its narrow interaxial distance minimizes how far any objects will be separated in the two eye views. A stereo base extender, OTOH, creates a wide stereo base so you get a sense of separation at much greater distances (just like using two cameras that are placed further apart). The downside is that you have to be very careful of objects in the foreground. Closer foreground objects are likely to be separated enough that your eyes won't be able to converge them comfortably. With the SBE that I use on my JVC, I can't have objects closer than about 12-15 feet, and even that can be too close depending on what's in the background. You have to learn to frame so as to avoid those widely divergent objects, no matter where they are in the stereo image. If you frame to eliminate wide divergence in the background, it may be too great in the foreground, and vice versa. And you have to be thinking about your viewers, too, and not just what's comfortable for you. That's why it's better to shoot conservatively.


----------



## Andrew_Woods

For those with a technical bent, I've just found the service manuals for the HDR-TD10 are available online:

Service Manual level 2: http://elektrotanya.com/sony_hdrtd10_sm.pdf/download.html 

Service Manual level 3: http://elektrotanya.com/sony_hdr-td10_hdr-td10e_level3.pdf/download.html 

Hopefully your TD10 will remain trouble free, but if it does develop a problem, these manuals will help you save the Earth from electronic waste.


----------



## Frank

I tried shooting a 3D video of my CNC machine with my Sony TD10 and was surprised to find that it produced a significant amount of vertical disparity as I zoomed in.

It took quite a bit of time for me to correct it using Vegas.. I put the corrected video on YouTube.





I don't recall this camera having this issue in the past.

I was hoping to use this camera for training purposes but this makes it too much trouble for me.

Another issue is the inter axial which produces so much negative parallax when zoomed in that even Vegas can not remove it all as the YouTube video shows on the last zoom.

Perhaps the TD20 would be a better option since the video will be mostly at short range and the TD20 has a smaller inter axial.


----------



## Joseph Clark

It's so good to see here you again, Frank. It's been too long. Is the CNC machine a part of your new business?


----------



## Frank

Thanks Joe,

The CNC machine is indeed part of my business.

I haven't done much with 3D lately.

I was using Solidworks eDrawings to visualize my design assemblies in 3D using my Quadro 4000 and my Asus 120 hertz monitor and a 3D television but it fails to work so often that I finally gave up. Many calls to SolidWORKS engineers got it to work from time to time but not consistently.

I am training someone to operate my machinery and I was hoping to use 3D as part of the training. It's not looking too promising at the moment.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Hope the business is going well. I miss your posts on 3D. You're always doing something interesting.


----------



## relaxman

Frank: run the lens calibration process from the menu, maybe it helps.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Frank, I hope you are fine so far again - we missed you. Good to read somthing again from you.


----------



## Frank

Thanks Joe and Wolfgang.









I read your posts sometimes with interest.

Since I haven't done much with 3D lately I have nothing particularly interesting to contribute.

The last interesting thing I did with 3D was watching construction across from my office remotely from my home in 3D in high definition.

I was streaming it using VLC. I finally gave it up because my internet service provider at home is too slow for it to be effective.

On another note; I gave one of my Sony TD10s to a friend in the hope that he would shoot some industrial video with it for me and he has yet to follow through.


I will try making another test video of the CNC machine after doing the auto calibration and see how it does.


----------



## TrickMcKaha

For those interested in wide angle 3D shots of indoor locations, I find a pair of GoPro cameras to be best for that. You can add expensive lenses to the Sony or the JVC, but look into the 3D GoPro offerings for a simple solution. I have both the TD-10 and 3D GoPros, and as Don notes, you can then use whichever camera that fits the application.


----------



## relaxman

I also have, but hero2 3D system is unreliable.

I tried many firmwares and different SD cards, but often

left cam freeze or start recording automatically, or

stop recording at random times, etc..


----------



## van Gageldonk

Hi,

I recently noticed this forum and see that we have been living in a parallel world. I wished I had found it sooner so I could share my founds with you guys and girls. I use my TD10 since June 2011 and have used the camera for many hours.

I'm a PAL guy.

I've published some on youtube for those interested;

http://www.youtube.com/user/rnvgrenevg 


Any comments are very welcome!


I'll check in soon again so if you have questions, don't hesitate to ask.


Regards,

René van Gageldonk


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *van Gageldonk*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1500#post_23115700
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I recently noticed this forum and see that we have been living in a parallel world. I wished I had found it sooner so I could share my founds with you guys and girls. I use my TD10 since June 2011 and have used the camera for many hours.
> 
> I'm a PAL guy.
> 
> I've published some on youtube for those interested;
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/rnvgrenevg
> 
> 
> Any comments are very welcome!
> 
> 
> I'll check in soon again so if you have questions, don't hesitate to ask.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> René van Gageldonk



I really like your videos, Rene, especially the 3D moves of still images of paintings. How did you achieve the moving circular highlighting of areas of those paintings? You also have several clever moves. I was struck by the one in which the 2D painting moves through 3D space in the background between two museum goers and positions itself on the screen plane. Very well done.


----------



## Don Landis

Joe- check out Boris Effects Continuum for 3D object manipulation and extrusion. It's a plugin for Vegas Pro.


----------



## Joseph Clark

Thanks, Don. Looks promising.


----------



## van Gageldonk

Hi Joe

thanks for the complement.

I use after effects for the animation of the paintings in S3D and put it all together in Vegas. The highlighting of details can be done several ways in After Effects, I used the Magnify effect on some, or else I use an enlarged part of the painting with a mask and animate both the detail and the mask in 3D space. More ways possible and probably on of them is with Boris Effects Continuum as Mr Landis suggests. I'm currently working on a third "Being there" of a painting in the Rijksmuseum.... should be finished soon. I'll notify this forum when so.


----------



## van Gageldonk

I have published the third "being there" on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/rnvgrenevg is the channel and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1U2UWb1_pc is the publication. It's a 2 minute quick impression of the painting and of the gallery it's in.

(It must be said that youtube renderings are not as fluid as the originals. smooth movement in the original rendered Blu-rays are still smooth when I upload but not in viewing. pans and zooms are sometimes a bit shaky in Youtube.)

Because most of it is done in After Effects and animation of the painting it is not as appropriate for this forum as some of my other presentations. The ones called "Beauty Spot" Walcheren and "Beauty Spot" Middelburg are more to the point for you people because it's all done with HDR TD10. Also the one called Het Rembrandthuis is all TD10. Anyway. Take a look and be my guest.


----------



## Don Landis

va Gageldonk- Your work is quite appropriate for this forum, no matter how you created it. Looks very good. It's always refreshing to learn of some new tools stereographers are using to do 3D.


As for YT stuttering at times- I think all of us have experienced this from time to time. I don't worry about it. I'm not trying to sell quality with YT. I have seen better quality using Vimeo but even here it can have a glitch from time to time. If you want to distribute your highest quality to select viewers, you can render your work to an iso file in Vegas and upload that to a web server, then hand out the link to any you choose. They will download it and burn it to a BluRay for playback. Some of us here have used that procedure to distribute bluray quality of our work to others.


I used to use and have after effects here. I got it in CS3 production suite that cost me a lot of money. Last year when Adobe switched to a subscription business model they disabled my CS3 on my computer. I called Adobe and they now wanted me to pay more money to get back what I had already paid for. I was not at all happy with that so I won't do business with them again.


----------



## Joseph Clark

I don't understand how its legal for Adobe to disable CS3 on your system. Did they give a reason?


----------



## Don Landis

I don't either but all they would tell me is the CS products are now subscription only. When I try to use my serial number I got with the purchase it activates for a short time and then the next time I reboot the computer I'm told I need to contact Adobe to renew my subscription with a link to a page to renew at a price. I've called several times with no luck, thinking I would get a different answer from a different rep.

I plan to stop in at the adobe booth at NAB and find a high ranking exec to speak with about the problem.



Details- I originally had the CS3 installed on another computer when I first bought it. When I built the new one I followed their instructions to deactivate the old computer's install before installing to the new one which would transfer the license. That worked and I had CS3 running on the new computer for about 10 months. Then about a month after they announced the change to subscription model I began to have the problem.


----------



## TrickMcKaha

Adobe is scary the way they reach inside one's computer.


----------



## Don Landis

Actually, many product companies today use a system requiring your computer be online to open the software as it verifies the serial number. The trouble with Adobe is that it switched to a subscription business model and now won't authorize my older products serial numbers, everything that was installed with CS3.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

But that cannot be true for an existing license - that was purchased BEFORE they decided to change their business model? Sounds like a horror.


----------



## van Gageldonk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1500#post_23131565
> 
> 
> va Gageldonk- Your work is quite appropriate for this forum, no matter how you created it. Looks very good. It's always refreshing to learn of some new tools stereographers are using to do 3D.
> 
> 
> As for YT stuttering at times- I think all of us have experienced this from time to time. I don't worry about it. I'm not trying to sell quality with YT. I have seen better quality using Vimeo but even here it can have a glitch from time to time. If you want to distribute your highest quality to select viewers, you can render your work to an iso file in Vegas and upload that to a web server, then hand out the link to any you choose. They will download it and burn it to a BluRay for playback. Some of us here have used that procedure to distribute bluray quality of our work to others.
> 
> 
> I used to use and have after effects here. I got it in CS3 production suite that cost me a lot of money. Last year when Adobe switched to a subscription business model they disabled my CS3 on my computer. I called Adobe and they now wanted me to pay more money to get back what I had already paid for. I was not at all happy with that so I won't do business with them again.



Thank you for your reply. Yes, that's what I usually do: I export to half SBS and to Blu-ray.iso . Publishing the iso online I haven't done so far but will in the near future.


I'm sorry to hear about your AE problems. Hopes it will work out with your visit to NAB.


----------



## HnsC

can anyone suggest a workflow with 3D Blu-ray iso and be able to view it? When I use a 720blu-ray iso I can't play it in my setup of Playstation3 with Bravia3D tv. That's why I have to export my vegas projects to half SBS up to now. But I want better quality (and perhaps a smaller filesize along the way) and that's why I would like a 3D iso file. When I play the iso op playstation it states it can't find a title.

anyone? Wolfgang S perhaps as a fellow European TD10 user?


----------



## Wolfgang S.

I have published the full workflow with Vegas, both to 720 50p but also to 1080 24p, here:

http://www.videoaktiv.de/201111046569/Artikel/CAMCORDER/Schau-mir-in-die-Augen.html 


Unfortunately, it is in German.


----------



## HnsC

Aha, thanks Wolfgang, but the keyword in my question is "be able to view it". (well it's not a word but..) I used your description to create 3D blu-rays... no problem. But I want to play the iso file without the disk. any suggestions? I use PS3 and Bravia. In the meantime I've discovered that Popcorn 400 can play BR 3D ISO. But it's another toy in the game. Can I use the equipment I've got? Being able to create similar files as the TD10 does would be nice, In Europe that's 25 fps 1920x1080. but that's out of the question....no tool to do that. Has anyone experience with Popcorn 400 or similar? Not having to burn onto disks is a big advantage I think.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

The playback of a s3d-BD-ISO from Vegas works (without menus) from players like the iconbit or the 3D-Prodigy.


----------



## Joseph Clark

I use the Mede8er MED600X3D to play 3D iso files created with my JVC TD1, but it can play commercial 3D discs from a network or an attached USB hard drive, too. It shouldn't have any problem with 1080/24p discs created in Vegas from the TD10.


----------



## HnsC

Oke, thank you both for the suggestions about the mediaplayers. So it's got to be a new toy.

Nobody is contradicting me about the statement that there's no tool to produce similar files as TD10 does... a MVC in the shape of a .m2ts. to bad. I read some time about CombineMVC.exe but can't find it anywhere...

thanks.


----------



## Joseph Clark

PowerDVD can export 60i NTSC (and maybe PAL, but I can't test that) m2ts and mp4 MVC files that play on the MED600X3D, but the audio stutters. Raw 60i MVC mp4 and MTS files (from the JVC TD1 and the Pansonic Z10000, respectively) play smoothly with the 600X, but audio stutters with those, too. Raw MTS and mp4 MVC files recorded at 24p with either the JVC HMZ1 or the Panasonic Z10000 play cleanly on the 600X (both audio and video). With the level of support offered by Mede8er, I wouldn't be surprised if they clean up audio playback of 60i files, too, but that's certainly not a given.


----------



## nxmehta

Is there any display out there (computer monitor, TV, etc.), that I can buy today, where I can view videos recorded with this device in glasses free 3D? The camcorder itself has an autostereoscopic LCD- I just want something, anything that is bigger (20"-40"). I can't for the life of my find anything. Are 3D camcorders and the Nintendo 3DS the only commercially available autostereoscopic displays?


----------



## Don Landis

So far the only stuff is in the Broadcast divisions. Sony just announced their 24" auto stereo work station monitor and it looked quite good. I saw it at NAB. Prior to that Marshall has had an auto stereo 8" monitor designed to work with broadcast 3D cameras. It's been out for over a year. It was SDI input but also had hdmi too. The price on this last I checked was $7900. It also had built in diagnostics for 2D and 3D.


----------



## nxmehta




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Landis*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1500#post_23249373
> 
> 
> So far the only stuff is in the Broadcast divisions. Sony just announced their 24" auto stereo work station monitor and it looked quite good. I saw it at NAB. Prior to that Marshall has had an auto stereo 8" monitor designed to work with broadcast 3D cameras. It's been out for over a year. It was SDI input but also had hdmi too. The price on this last I checked was $7900. It also had built in diagnostics for 2D and 3D.



Wow, that is nuts. $8k for an 8" monitor!


Thanks for the info though. It's amazing to me that it's so tough to find these displays...


----------



## Don Landis

Keep an eye out for or contact B&H. B&H is the worlds largest Sony Broadcast retailer. If anyone will have it first, it will be them.


Yeah, Marshall is very high quality monitors. Broadcast stuff is indeed much higher in price than consumer stuff anyway.


----------



## 3dPCH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jan Sobr*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1470#post_22902816
> 
> 
> Hallo everyone here, I am new to this forum. I´d like to ask someone for help with an issue regarding my TD10. (I apologize if this was discussed here before, maybe I did not search thoroughly).......Does anyone here have an experience with attaching a telephoto lens to the front of the TD10? I am planning to shoot a wildlife documentary and therefore I´ll need to somehow increase the zoom capabilities of the TD10 to be able to shoot on long distances. I have learned that Cyclopital makes lens mount adapter for the TD10 which has 86 mm thread on it, so with the series of step-down rings I should be able to pair my TD10 with, say, the Vivitar 22-72 telephoto lens. But here comes the BUT. Since I mostly shoot in 2D and the TD10 uses only its right eye for 2D shooting (if I remember well), there is gonna be a little off-axis thing going on. Simply said - the TD10´s lens won´t line up with the telephoto lens. I must admit, beeing a technical rookie, I have no clue what this could cause to the footage. Please help me someone.....Or if you have some other suggestions on adding a telephoto to the TD10......Thanks in advance.....Jan



I don't have experience with tele adapters but I've been using Cyclopital's widest TD10 adapter (15mm) for some time. I recently updated my "unofficial" guide to using the HDR-TD10 with new info on the adapter, as well as SteadyShot performance tests I did and how to download music onto the camera for playback during the "Highlight" mode. You can find it here (It's getting somewhat long but i hope it is useful to others):

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22533866 


Phil


----------



## tony3dd

Hi,


It's been quite a while since I've been here. Skimmed through the last few pages, but haven't had a chance to check out the vids most of you posted yet. I'm having problems with you tube 3d, so sometimes it works.


Hi Don, good to see you're still pushing the envelope, got a few of yours to work, ... very cool! ... wish I could view the source quality of those landscapes.


van Gageldonk, couldn't get being there to run in 3d, yet. Though I enjoyed Beauty Spot very much.


I put aside the td10 in frustration, partially because Vegas was too unstable on my pc, version 12 (movie studio 12) actually works for me, except the 3d preview, so I decided to make a home movie of my 87 year old dad to give it a try.

I haven't had much success with the manual controls so it's auto all the way, I tried to get in as close as possible without messing up the stereo effect.

though I uploaded it in 1080 they reduced it to 720 and the movement is very jumpy ... I'm guessing that I would have better results if I reduce it before upload.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dbXoeB9HPo 

please excuse the transitions ... I was curious to see what they looked like in stereo.


Tony


----------



## Don Landis

Nice piece, Tony. Now I know how to make Chicken Soup.










Opening graphics looked good too. What did you use to create the cartoon effects?



You might want to pump up the sound track. Use Normalize in Vegas at first. I had to crank all my amps up to hear it.


----------



## tony3dd

Thanks Don, I'm a beginner with the audio, .... it sounded fine on my pc, so I had no idea it was so far off.

Would you try this other one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugQFwVLW1g4 ... does it have the same problem?


I animate in lightwave 3d, wanted to get that old cartoon look. I'm going to try some tests animating the interaxial on the fly.


Do polarizing filters work with your modification?


Tony


----------



## Powerplay4

There follows two more videos in 3D and 2D of my authorship of the "Sao Paulo Motor Show 2012". Recorded with the camcorder Sony HDR-TD10. Editing was done with Sony Vegas Pro 12. No color correction was made.


3D Version:








2D Version:








Thanks!

Milton


----------



## NorthTV

It has been awhile since I have been to this forum though I have continued to use my TD10. I am at the stage now where i would like to go back and edit some of the "footage" that I have taken over the past few years. I see Toshiba has a 3D laptop that plays 3D Blu-rays and has an HDMI output that will connect to a 3D video display or 3D TV. The model is X875-Q7390. I will try to add a link. It is designed as a gaming computer with a NIVIDIA graphics card, 2 Terabite hard drive, etc. I assume the laptop will not directly input 3D video for immediate viewing from the TD10 since the HDMI is output only. I have read quite a few reviews about the most current Toshiba 3D Laptop which is equipped with Windows 8 and though it is mentioned that it is suitable for editing I have not seen any specific mention of editing 3D video. My question is whether this would be a suitable computer to use for editing and whether it would have any advantages over a non-3D laptop for editing 3D video from the TD10? I assume I will have to get the most current version of Vegas or has something better come along in the last year for 3D editing? Does Vegas work effectively with Windows 8? (If not I see Toshiba has an older 3D laptop that is equipped with Windows 7 home version. - the X775-3DV80.)


http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-X875-Q7390-17-3-Inch-Diamond-Textured-Aluminum/dp/B009D1UWUA/ref=sr_ob_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1376502666&sr=8-2#productDetails


----------



## NorthTV

In checking the link in my above post I see i was off on the size of the hard drive. Anyway, here is also a link to the prior model that uses Windows 7 home edition. If I get one of these two Toshiba 3D laptops for the purpose of editing 3D video from my TD10 is there any advantage of one over the other when it comes to using Vegas for 3D editing?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&sku=822596&is=REG&Q=&A=details


----------



## NorthTV

Should add that both of the above referenced 3D laptops come with a BLU-ray Disc Rewritable (BD-RE) and DVD SuperMulti drive supporting 16 formats. Other specs of relevance for the Windows 8 version include a Core 17-3630QM 2.4 GHz CPU, 16 GB DDR3 memory, 1000 GB 5400 RPM Hard Drive and NVDIA Geoforce GTX 670 graphics card. (Reportedly there is a newer model that is same but comes with the New Haswell 4th Generation Intel for an extra 150 dollars - should I wait for that to speed up 3D rendering?).


I have read Don's discussion regarding the PC configuration he put together but since I need a new laptop anyway would one of these 3D laptops work equally well for editing 3D as discussed in my original thread just above?)


----------



## NorthTV

Just learned from Toshiba that 3D will not be a feature in its upcoming laptop that has the new 4th generation intel. Looks like theToshiba Qosmio X875-Q7390 17.3 inch 3D laptop with Windos 8 that came out at the beginning of this year will be the ticket unless someone here warns me that I need to go with the older Windows 7 home edition model in order to be compatible with Sony's 3D editing Vegas software.


----------



## Joseph Clark

The 5400 rpm hard drive will be a big performance issue. 3D editing from a single drive (much less such a slow one) will never be smooth. At minimum, the OS and Vegas should be on one drive, with a fast SSD or striped RAID0 hard drive array for 3D video and other assets. This looks like a very good laptop, but frankly I'd hesitate to tackle 3D video editing on any laptop. OTOH, for about what this laptop costs you could probably put together a very respectable tower system.


----------



## NorthTV




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joseph Clark*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1530#post_23634391
> 
> 
> The 5400 rpm hard drive will be a big performance issue. 3D editing from a single drive (much less such a slow one) will never be smooth. At minimum, the OS and Vegas should be on one drive, with a fast SSD or striped RAID0 hard drive array for 3D video and other assets. This looks like a very good laptop, but frankly I'd hesitate to tackle 3D video editing on any laptop. OTOH, for about what this laptop costs you could probably put together a very respectable tower system.




Thanks for the response. The subject laptop is promoted as a desktop replacement so assume there would be no problem adding a faster hard drive externally though not sure how that would allow for getting the OS and Vegas on the one hard drive?


----------



## Don Landis

NorthTV-


I have a Microsoft Surface Pro with 128Gb Ram plus a SD class 10 64GB card. It is running stock Windows 8


Note that vegas v12 MUST run on a 64bit OS which is what the Surface Pro is. Vegas 12 is working fine on my Surface Pro. The Vegas license will allow you to use a second install to a laptop without having to buy another license. During the install you may experience the windows 8 want to reboot and go online to add some OS updates. Let it do that and then it will reboot. Launch Vegas12 again and enter your serial keys in the box. It will then launch Vegas 12.


I have also tested the Device Explorer with a Sony HDR TD10 connected to the Surface Pro USB port. and it will transfer the 3D video just fine. The class 10 SD card is plenty of storage for a 3D video project running 45 minutes.


In order to view 3D in your preview window you need to set your preferences to 3D anaglyph and use colored glasses since the screen is just a 2D screen.


The playback on the surface is near real time and looks quite smooth with clean audio .


Problems- The display of certain parts of Vegas is a bit goofy looking with larger than normal or smaller than normal fonts. For example the File, Edit View... bar is larger than normal. But the access appears to be bug free. Same with the Explorer window and file listing. But it does work. The Project Media window looks better and there is no problems managing the various edits in Vegas on the Surface Pro. I do not know if this is a windows 8 issue or most likely a graphics card display incompatibility. Likely, this display problem will get corrected with updates.


Basically, the system works and I can do some basic editing with a surface Pro and my TD10 3D video.


----------



## NorthTV

Thanks too to Don. That is assuring to learn that Windows 8 should not be a problem with Vegas 12. Had been looking at the Surface Pro for other purposes and had not considered it for 3D editing.


----------



## Powerplay4

There follow one more video in 3D and 2D of my authorship of the "Curitiba Motor Show 2013". Recorded with the camcorder Sony HDR-TD10. Editing was done with Sony Vegas Pro 12. No color correction was made.


3D Version:





2D Version:





Thanks!

Milton


----------



## Don Landis

Wanted to post a question to all TD-10 users.


Recently I decided to record to the SD card for a project since I discovered I had some prior projects on my TD-10 internal memory that I had not transferred. I Switched over to a blank high speed class 10 32Gb SD card and shot the project. Most of the clips were short 10 sec to 30 seconds. But a couple were longer, running for 4-10 minutes. I had about 7 of these longer clips.


So I get home and transfer all the video using PMB. All the short clips were fine but the longer ones suffered some flaws after about 2-3 minutes into the clip. These clips would not load into Vegas at all. Next I tried to load with Device Explorer and had the same problem. Finally, back in PMB, I split the clips, isolating the corrupted parts and then importing them to Vegas as several shorter clips. This worked and I was able to salvage the scene.


I wonder if any of you all have had trouble with recording long form 3D to the SD cards? Could it be just a bad SD card?


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Don, typically I use the internal memory too. But with the Z10K I have no issue at all, to shoot longer s3D files and import them to Vegas. But I do not know what went wrong with your card.


----------



## Don Landis

FYI- The card I used has been used without issue in my Z10K as well. I consider myself warned not to use the SD card in the TD10 for 3D from now on.


----------



## Andrew_Woods

> the longer ones suffered some flaws after about 2-3 minutes into the clip.


What is the file size of those clips. It sounds akin to the 2GB file boundary problem discussed much earlier, but I think that only occurs after about 20 minutes.

What brand card were you using?


I have a project coming up soon where I'll need to be recording to both the onboard memory and the SD card in one long job, so your message is a good prompt to be careful and test test test. ;-)


Cheers!


----------



## Don Landis

Andrew- None of the affected clips were that long that required stitching of multiple MTS files needing to be stitched in PMB. Therefore no FAT file limits could be blamed. I think the largest file was an MTS at 1.2Gb. It's quite possible the card brand is to blame but I only had one experience. It would not be fare to mention the brand since that same card previously performed flawlessly in the Z10K with even longer clips.


Good luck on your long form project. Yes, wise to test test test. I would start the testing with a freshly formatted card and then record the card full. PMB or device explorer the long clip and then try to load it in the timeline. If it loads fine then repeat the test, Then repeat fort a 3rd time. If it performs without flaws and your clip loads without failure for 3 tries, then I would say you'll be good to go for the project day, the 4th trial. Be sure the test recordings have the same motion that the real shoot will have.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

It should be possile to use tools like the pmb or in Vegas the device explore to combine longer takes to one correct file without issues (like missing frames or missing audio parts) from all cameras mentioned here. I have done so for the TD10 (but using the internal memory) but also the Z10K (using sdhc cards) without an issue.


Andrew, test your cards in your camera before you go into a real filming situation. From time to time there seems to be some issues with some cards, if that happens the easiest solution will to to take another card and see if it happens again.


----------



## trevorjharris

Powerdirector 12 is out. Please can anyone tell me if they have changed anything on the 3D front. In particular can it produce at higher bitrates in MVC.


----------



## Liam Goodison


I'd be interested in knowing this also, PD11 has done a sterling job converting my td10e footage for watching on my oculus rift in 3d


----------



## van Gageldonk

De-interlace considerations

I've been thinking about the interlace of our camerafootage: 50i for 2 eyes = 25i for 1 eye. So it's interlaced. Actually our footage is half HD.



For my personal use I used to export to halfSBS. (show with Playstation3 and PSmediaplayer).

Now I'm thinking: if I use half TopBottom it should be sharper than halfSBS. Creating halfSBS drops half the width and is lossy. Creating halfTopBottom drops the interlaced lines, thus keeping the right lines and dropping nothing.

What are your thoughts about this?


----------



## Wolfgang S.

From a theoritical poins of view, tob-bottom half should deliver the better quality. In real live you will not see much differencte comapred to sbs-half.


----------



## MLXXX




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *van Gageldonk*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1530#post_24060216
> 
> 
> De-interlace considerations
> 
> I've been thinking about the interlace of our camerafootage: 50i for 2 eyes = 25i for 1 eye. So it's interlaced. Actually our footage is half HD.
> 
> 
> 
> For my personal use I used to export to halfSBS. (show with Playstation3 and PSmediaplayer).
> 
> Now I'm thinking: if I use half TopBottom it should be sharper than halfSBS. Creating halfSBS drops half the width and is lossy. Creating halfTopBottom drops the interlaced lines, thus keeping the right lines and dropping nothing.
> 
> What are your thoughts about this?


Unfortunately half height top-bottom does discard valuable video information for those parts of the scene that were static or moving only slightly. I explain this below.


People commonly assume that a video camera setting of 1080i60 (or for those in PAL DVD regions, 1080i50) gives inferior vertical resolution to a setting of 1080p24. However the analysis depends on how quickly the subject (or the camera) is moving. 24fps is a very slow frame rate, with a history stretching back to the late 1920s. During a pan, the image can become quite blurred. A typical exposure time of 1/48th second blurs the content but reduces the jittery stroboscopic effect of the pan, a good compromise for projection at the cinema. Hollywood movies require great care to avoid camerawork that would expose this limitation of frame rate.


60i is far better for pans or fast movement of the subject than 24p. A typical exposure time of 1/120th second keeps the successive half vertical resolution frames crisp and the frame rate is high enough to hide jitter between frames. It is a good frame rate for sport or for general unplanned camerawork. Despite the limited vertical resolution of 60i during movement, the video can for some scenes momentarily (and paradoxically) provide _more_ visible detail (after adaptive deinterlacing) than blurred Full HD frames. A lot depends on the speed of movement (of the subject, and panning/zoom of the camera). At sedate rates of change, 24p will provide a slight resolution advantage over 60i as the deinterlacing cannot quite reconstruct the missing information and introduces a degree of (deinterlacing) blur.


60i for a perfectly still scene, and using no panning or zooming, is equivalent to 24p in its resolution. That is because the deinterlacer in the display device (or editing device with adaptive deinterlacing) is able to combine each pair of interlaced captures into a set of progressive 1920x1080 frames. For example, one second's worth of 60i (containing 60 still captures that weave together to yield 30 full resolution still captures) can be used as source material for creating 24 progressive still captures in the editor.


1080i60 for a partially still, partially moving, scene provides Full HD resolution for the still parts, and a non-blurry high temporal resolution, but limited vertical resolution image, for the moving parts.


Some people prefer half-height top and bottom for use with passive Full HD LCD displays as such displays can only use 540 vertical lines for each eye anyway. That is an exception to video authoring practice.


The normal video authoring practice is to use half-width side by side when transferring 3D to a Full HD 2D video format. There is no reason not to follow that practice simply because the 3D capture is at 60i rather than 24p. I say that because, resolution-wise, 60i is
for a static scene, as good as 24p [assuming sufficient light for adequate exposure]; and,
for a slowly moving scene, _almost_ as good as 24p, depending on the quality of the deinterlacing.


----------



## Don Landis

I believe there is also a double hit if you choose Top / Bottom and are using a Passive display monitor. With Passive display, the most benefit is from SBSh. For active, only, you can make the case for Top / Bottom format.


Personally, I only use Top / Bottom in full frame as it is a great compatible format for lossless transfer of 3D for further editing in Power director. For You Tube, I use SBSh. For my home viewing I use iso rendering in Vegas Pro which is full resolution frame packed.


----------



## MLXXX

I'm not sure there has to be a double hit. I think the case for half height top bottom is that the passive display is only capable of extracting half of the 1080 lines anyway for each eye. Putting aside schemes that try to get around the limitation by alternating which lines they extract or discard for the Left image (and which lines they extract or discard for the Right image), the passive screen is compromised vertically to start with. And so feeding it a reduced vertical resolution source shouldn't have as much impact. Whatever the theoretical analysis, I recall reading that some people with passive sets have reported a better 3D effect with Top/Bottom half height, than with the usual half width side by side. (I should try to test my own vision with this.)


I think part of a post from the thread _top-bottom-3d-vs-side-by-side-on-passive-display_ explains the theoretical position nicely:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron*  /t/1364877/top-bottom-3d-vs-side-by-side-on-passive-display#post_21051640
> 
> 
> TAB progressive is much preferred with Passive displays. The vertical resolution is not halved twice. It is halved once by the TAB encode, it is then anamorphic expanded to full vertical height before display. During display it is halved by the the passive technology. This only means you lose the lines that were doubled in the anamorphic expansion, bringing you back to 1920x540p.



I guess this topic might be better discussed in that thread than here! Having said that, the HDR-TD10 does produce interlaced 3D and it is a real question how to use its output most efficiently if encoding to a 2D frame at either half height per eye or half width per eye. An important point is that successive fields of an interlaced scan are displaced vertically by one line width. So if you were inclined to simply harvest each interlaced field to create 60 (or 50) half height frames per second, those half height frames would bob up and down by a line width at 60 (or 50) frames per second. Simple bob deinterlacing was used in early display panels. How a modern 3D panel would react if presented with such video to process and expand to full size 3D I don't know. If your target frame rate were 24fps progressive, the video editing software would I imagine default to an advanced adaptive deinterlacing method, thus avoiding the bobbing movement. And the display would have a straightforward processing task.


On the general topic of passive displays, I recently saw a 4k passive LCD TV (a Sony 65") displaying 3D from a Full HD 3D Blu-ray. I was impressed with how unobtrusive the alternate horizontal black lines were even at a close viewing distance. (With a 1920x1080 passive display I find those black lines a bit too conspicuous.)


----------



## HnsC

I'm confused and maybe someone here is willing to help me...

with the footage of my TD10 in Vegas Pro I'm trying to make an .iso file in 3D. No mather what I do, my 20 minute edit is turned into a 13minute 52 sec blu-ray.iso. It cuts the end. And it's only 3.396 gyg. I export it to 720P 50fps version. I've tried using 'render loop region only' with the loop region set to full project, but no luck there.

does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?


----------



## HnsC

Ah, never mind, my mistake:

I extracted the .iso with winrar archiver, resulting in a shorter blu-ray. With deamon tools it was alright and resulted in the full length!


----------



## JOAT09

To HnsC


Surely you will have some bug in the edit line at the point which is cut.


Kind regards,


J.O. Alda


----------



## HnsC

Thanks jat09, I usually would think so too, but in this case I know it's because I extracted the .iso with winrar....a workflow that usually works well.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Yesterday I have seen another anoying issue with the TD10.


I purchased a Ninja2 - there is a great promotion by Atomos until end of January.

http://www.atomos.com/ 


Well, with my Z10000 it is possible to have a clean hdmi output - seems to be 8bit 4:2:2 instead of 4:2:0 with AVCHD. But also, I can set the hdmi output to side-by-side half and can shoot to the Atomos with high data rates. Fine.


But that is not possible with the TD10. Sure, it also has a clear hdmi output - BUT it is not possible to set the HDMI-out to side-by-side for a 2D unit really. That seems to work for a 3D-HDTV only!! Borring.


----------



## van Gageldonk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1530#post_24247958
> 
> 
> 
> But that is not possible with the TD10. Sure, it also has a clear hdmi output - BUT it is not possible to set the HDMI-out to side-by-side for a 2D unit really. That seems to work for a 3D-HDTV only!! Borring.



Hi Wolfgang,

I don't know what you intend to do with side by side on a 2d screen but you know it is possible to just switch it to 2D with the switch on the back? That shows the leftonly single eye on a 2D and 3D screen.


regards,

René van Gageldonk


----------



## Wolfgang S.

The idea is quite simple and not very new: you can use a Ninja2 with a 3D camera to capture s3D footage as side-by-side half. The Ninja2 is a 2D unit - so to record the sbs-half footage it is necessary to set the camera to sbs-half. The reason why you may with to do so is because the Ninja2 offers professional codecs like ProRes 422 or DNxHD - and that you may end up with a better quality even with side-by-side half compared to the MVC footage.


As said, that works for the Z10000 - but not for the TD10.


Sure, you can set the TD10 to 2D as you suggest - but then you will have 2D only, but not sbs-half.


----------



## van Gageldonk

I see. Sounds good Wolfgang.

I guess the side by side setting in the menu> HDMI 3d setting is full sbs and will not work?

thanks for pointing to ninja2. new to me.


regards,

René van Gageldonk


----------



## Wolfgang S.

We are talking about the TD10... side-by-side means here side-by-side HALF, and it seems to work on a 3D-HDTV only. At least it works with the TD10 on my active Panasonic 3D-HDTV - but here I do not need it at all. Here side-by-side half is a loss in resolution only.


But if you record the signal of a camera like the Z10K to the Atomos using a professional format, the result can be better.


By the way, Atomos is running a cash-back promotion until end of this month. That is why I have purchased one unit - I think it has become really afordable.

http://www.atomos.com/ 


The good point is that is improves the value of my Z10000 - maybe also the value of the TD10 (but only in 2D).


----------



## van Gageldonk

3 of my videos captured with TD10 will be shown on The SD&A conference: Stereoscopic Displays and Applications Conference on 3 t/m 5 februari 2014 in San Francisco. http://www.stereoscopic.org/3dcinema . I'm showing my videos on the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam.

Anyone of you planning to go to the conference? I'm curious how it looks on the big screen. The organisation got my footage in 2 seperate HD files and they show it with polarized glasses.

Please let me know if you happen to go and have seen the presentation.


----------



## trevorjharris

I deinterlace my TD10 video with QTGMC which also is able to simulate shutter blur. Looking at the meta data on my video I read the shutter speed for each frame. It varies from 1/450 sec to 1/50 sec so the shutter angle varies from 40 to 360 degrees. I often find the deinterlaced video flickery and so I want to add some shutter blur to the video when the shutter speed drops below 1/100 sec. At the moment the only way I see of doing this is splitting the video into lots of small clips and apply the blur and the recombing the clips. Is there any software which will apply blur depending on shutter speed. The reason for deinterlacing is that I need this for authoring blu-ray discs. I could of course just add some blur and put up with the high blur when the sutter speed is at 1/50 sec. I wondered what other have found with shutter blur.


----------



## Wolfgang S.

Puhh, terrible lot of work. Cannot remember that I have seen something like a shutter blur.... so that has not been an issue for me up to now.


Do not know if you shoot with a PAL or NTSC version. But for both it should be possible to render to 720 50p(PAL) or 720 60p(NTSC) where this kind of issue should not take place at all. Both 720 50p/60p are fine for 3D-BD too.


If you wish to render to 1080 24p then you have the issue that this cannot be done from 1080 60i (NTSC) versions of the cameras in a really great way. There are user that find that good enough today, but for 1080 50i I still do not like that. For PAL another way would be to slow down the footage from 50i to 24p what works great.


----------



## Bergj69


Hi there,

 

Since I am new in the 3D arena (in fact, my HDR-TD20VE is still in Germany and on its way to the Netherlands), I am lacking behind somewhat. I struggled through quite some discussions here. Correct me if I am wrong, but ultimately my findings are:

1. There aren't too many options on getting a decent 3D consumer camcorder.

2. It boils down to: HDR-TD10, 20 and 30 and the Panasonic Z10k.

3. The latter has the biggest spacing between the lenses (40 mm) hence the furthest distance at wich it can still produce a good 3D effect.

4. The price for that is twofold: even secondhand running at € 2000,- ($ 2750,-) and it is really big and heavy (not likely to be taken on the motorcycle holiday).

5. The small distance between the lenses of the HDR-TD10 can be enlarged by means of a Cycloptical Stereo Base Extender. Footage available on YouTube demonstrating the differences.

6. With the higher pixel amount (better stills) than the TD10, the built in 64 GB, the better battery (NP-FV70 iso FV50 that comes with the TD30) and the manual control wheel, TD20 is the best Sony option.

 

7. Now I need a Cycloptical SBE that fits the TD20VE (and thus will fit the TD30VE as well). That way I can make long shots (Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Sedona, Yoshua Tree park), as well as living room shots and not carry around a chunky device. Hopefully such a SBE device will become available soon.

 

8. With a SBE the TD20VE is the best portable option available now. A new Sony HDR-TD40VE device that would capture 1080 50p (EUR) or 1080 60p (USA) with lenses set at 60 mm apart would obviously be the ultimate device. But as long as that thing is not on the market, a TD20VE with a SBE is the best of both worlds: portability and 3D range.

 

What's wrong with my findings??

 

Greetz,

 

NewBee Jeroen


----------



## guitarman512

TD20 and TD30 are great cameras. As long as you have something in the foreground and mid distance, distant subjects still look 3d. Even getting a high perspective and including some ground footage can help. I find some footage with base extenders hard to watch esp. On a projection screen. I've not yet tried the sterioscopic filter on movie studio 13 yet but this may let you increase the apparent depth and correct errors.


----------



## Bergj69


Hi Guitarman512,

 

Thanks for the feedback.  On YouTube  I watched a comparison of shots taken with a TD10 with and without the Stereo Base Extender, I watched them using my Full HD 3D Optoma beamer. The thing with the Cyclopital SBE is that, once installed on the TD10, it cropped the image, making it unpretty to look at. To prevent this crop effect, the camera required zooming, thus changing the shot. To get a similar shot (in order to make a good comparison), the guy that did  this footage  had to walk back for 50 (!) meters. That shot did look similar as to what was within the frame, but it did have a noticeable better 3D effect.

 

It will be very interesting to learn whether or not the Pinnacle Studio 16 Ultimate version I use for editing is capable of enhancing 3D effect. I have yet to find out how this program deals with the footage of my future HDR-TD20VE.

 

The tip you gave, to include objects in the foreground, thereby creating a 3D effect in the background is something I figured would work after having watched several sample shots on YouTube. I was particularly impressed by footage shot in Japan, the 3D effect did appear to extend much further beyond the 15 meters that I have found to be the agreed end of 3D by most of the forum users discussing the TD20 and 30. Either this footage has been edited and the 3D effect has been enhanced by some means, or, when this is not the case, the end limit of the 3D effect is apparently very much depending on objects in the foreground.

 

I can’t wait until I have the camera in my hands and can start experimenting!

 

 

Regards,

 

Jeroen


----------



## Don Landis

Bergj69-


Welcome to 3D !


If you're a veteran shooter in 2D you will find new challenges in the real world of 3 dimensions.


Both the TD10 and 20 are excellent starter choices for 3D introduction. The 30 was Sony's last offering in 3D consumer camcorders. It basically is a cut down version of the 20 lacking internal memory and being constructed with all recycled materials. The later of no importance to us here. There was a major reduction in physical size between the 20 and the 10 but otherwise both have similar performance and features. The 20 offered slightly better CMOS imager but the visual difference was hard to see for most people.


When dealing with the interaxial spread between these small camcorders, the differences offer very little visual advantage. A few mm difference in IA doesn't matter in the "bigger picture" by my experience. Basically these small camcorders shine with excellent 3D in shooting under 30 ft and tend to produce flat backgrounds beyond 30 ft distance. guitarman is correct that you can get some stereo effect by placing an object in the foreground to maintain a 3D look when shooting greater distances but this will not increase depth or solids of the background. The only way to achieve this in larger scenery of large objects is to increase the interaxial to what is known as super interaxial distance, generally greater than 65mm. Then with really large stages such as the Grand Canyon, we move to hyper interaxial. There are formulas and calculator aps that help do the math where you enter your distance to near object, distance to far object, your lens focal length and the display screen size to determine the optimum IA. But when moving to these wide lens spacings you have to be careful not to have near objects too close. For example- with a 20 inch interaxial, the near object can't be closer than 250 feet or the images will not converge for stereo and people get headaches. But your far objects will miniaturize and maintain some stereo appearance.


To do these larger subjects such as the ones you mention, you would need to use two cameras on a bench and a way to sync them. I have such a system with two TD-10 where I put each into 2D mode and then pair the left and right files with Sony Vegas Pro. Trust me when I tell you shooting 3D is a challenge, but adding the complication of a hyper interaxial spread and syncing two greatly expands the challenges. Each shot is usually done several settings to evaluate in editing. But that is what it takes to do the bigger scenes and maintain 3D.


The main advantage of the Panasonic Z10000 is you have a professional camcorder that offers XLR audio and 3 chip imagers for better color. But it is bigger, heavier, and gets more attention and often will brand you as a professional shooter and raise obstacles in some locations that do not allow professionals to shoot while ignoring amateurs. Like at Disney World, nobody questions you with a TD10 but carry a Z10k and I've been stopped several times by park security wanting to know who I am working for.


----------



## Bergj69


Hi Don,

 

Thanks for your comprehensive technical explanation. I read about those rigs carrying two TD10 camera’s for the ultimate long shot 3D effect. The thing is: when on a holiday, rushing through the States in only 2 and a half week (including a stop by at my Uncle’s place in Winfield, British Colombia, yup, that is Canada…), I don’t have the time to set up such a rig. And afterwards I will not have the time to do the time consuming editing. Though I am indeed reasonably a 2D video editing veteran, I made use of the very basic Pinnacle Studio video editing software (with which I  could do the tricks I wanted) and gradually progressed through the version step ups (each step up with more options of which I used quite a number, like picture in frame, rotating frames within frames, etc).

 

Pondering about what you said about the required distance between recording lenses (20 inch….) for very long shots like the Grand Canyon…. I can’t escape the thought that viewing the result of such footage on a big screen would very likely create a more and deeper 3D effect for the viewer of that footage than the camera man had when he shot the scene and looked at it through his human eyes. Because the eyeballs of the cameraman are very likely to be not more than 6 centimetres apart. Thereby giving me the impression that in natural life we humans are limited in range over which we can see proper 3D. Using those rigs to have the two lenses spread over a much longer distance than the 6 centimetres of our eyeballs would be like shifting the 3D perception way backwards once viewed on a large screen. “Larger and deeper than real life itself!”

 

I can imagine this does horrid things with the brain when all of a sudden something in the foreground pops up while the rig is used to shoot the footage. Digging through the tons of sample 3D (SBS) material available on YouTube I witnessed such an effect when a Japanese guy approached the camera far too close, and that was a HDR-TD20VE with the lenses set very close together at only 20 mm!

So, to sum it all up, as an amateur it seems I must learn to live with the fact I will not be able to create a huge “Wow” effect when I will shoot the gorgeous scenery of the Grand Canyon since I will not be travelling with rigs and such. Sure, putting the edge of “my side” of the Canyon in the shot, possibly with a tree or family member, will be a valuable add-on compared to the same shot “only” shot in 2D. And that is where my second thought comes in to view: although the 3D range of my future TD20VE is limited, I am not paying a huge price in return. The only compromise I can come up with is that I can shoot 1080 50p when I go in 2D (using the TD20), whilst I am stuck to 1080 50i doing the same shooting in 3D. It will be interesting to see if I can notice the difference in sharpness between those two shots. As an amateur, for now I believe I would only see differences when objects start moving fast. The 50p 2D picture should show smoother movement. If I do not notice difference in sharpness and avoid fast moving objects and fast camera movement, I have the “limited” 3D effect as an extra when I shoot 3D 1080 50i.  Because, even as a 2D camera, the TD20V well out performs my previous (and now son owned) Sony HDR-XR155. If I do not see dramatic differences and can live with the fact in 3D mode I will have less manual control or scenery functions available, I am fine using the 3D capturing mode (with my son shooting 2D as a back-up with his XR155.

Using a stereoscopic tweek in editing software might just do the trick enough for me. If not, perhaps using a SBE will give me that bit more 3D on long shots. But at first I will experiment in positioning the convergence point at various places, using various zoom settings and see what that does once viewed on my 2 metre 50 centimetre screen.


----------



## Bergj69




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wolfgang S.*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22534011
> 
> 
> The weaknesses are well known:
> 
> 
> - the tendency to overexposure is an issue in 3D, I have the same experience. I think that the adjustment in expose can help, but since a zebra function is missing that is one of the clear weaknesses
> 
> ...


As I am an utter NewBee, I noticed in the manual of my (yet to be delivered TD20) that this camera is fitted with a "Zebra" function, 70% and 100%. But I have no clue as to how to use this feature. The online guide of Sony did not make it much clearer for me. I get a hunch it has to do with exposure, but what info can this Zebra function give me and how will I know what to adjust and by how much?

 

Sorry if this is a Stupid Question....


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bergj69*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1560#post_24635297
> 
> 
> As I am an utter NewBee, I noticed in the manual of my (yet to be delivered TD20) that this camera is fitted with a "Zebra" function, 70% and 100%. But I have no clue as to how to use this feature. The online guide of Sony did not make it much clearer for me. I get a hunch it has to do with exposure, but what info can this Zebra function give me and how will I know what to adjust and by how much?
> 
> 
> Sorry if this is a Stupid Question....



Not a stupid question. Zebra gives you a visual cue that areas of the image are overexposing. If you see the zebra stripes, that area of the image is past the 70% or 100% exposure level. It tells you that you need to reduce the aperture and/or increase the shutter speed, or that part of the image will lose detail. That is, what should be shades of gray (like details in a cloud) will be one solid bright white area.


----------



## Joseph Clark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bergj69*  /t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1560#post_24634161
> 
> 
> Hi Don,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your comprehensive technical explanation. I read about those rigs carrying two TD10 camera’s for the ultimate long shot 3D effect. The thing is: when on a holiday, rushing through the States in only 2 and a half week (including a stop by at my Uncle’s place in Winfield, British Colombia, yup, that is Canada…), I don’t have the time to set up such a rig. And afterwards I will not have the time to do the time consuming editing. Though I am indeed reasonably a 2D video editing veteran, I made use of the very basic Pinnacle Studio video editing software (with which I  could do the tricks I wanted) and gradually progressed through the version step ups (each step up with more options of which I used quite a number, like picture in frame, rotating frames within frames, etc).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pondering about what you said about the required distance between recording lenses (20 inch….) for very long shots like the Grand Canyon…. I can’t escape the thought that viewing the result of such footage on a big screen would very likely create a more and deeper 3D effect for the viewer of that footage than the camera man had when he shot the scene and looked at it through his human eyes. Because the eyeballs of the cameraman are very likely to be not more than 6 centimetres apart. Thereby giving me the impression that in natural life we humans are limited in range over which we can see proper 3D. Using those rigs to have the two lenses spread over a much longer distance than the 6 centimetres of our eyeballs would be like shifting the 3D perception way backwards once viewed on a large screen. “Larger and deeper than real life itself!”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can imagine this does horrid things with the brain when all of a sudden something in the foreground pops up while the rig is used to shoot the footage. Digging through the tons of sample 3D (SBS) material available on YouTube I witnessed such an effect when a Japanese guy approached the camera far too close, and that was a HDR-TD20VE with the lenses set very close together at only 20 mm!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, to sum it all up, as an amateur it seems I must learn to live with the fact I will not be able to create a huge “Wow” effect when I will shoot the gorgeous scenery of the Grand Canyon since I will not be travelling with rigs and such. Sure, putting the edge of “my side” of the Canyon in the shot, possibly with a tree or family member, will be a valuable add-on compared to the same shot “only” shot in 2D. And that is where my second thought comes in to view: although the 3D range of my future TD20VE is limited, I am not paying a huge price in return. The only compromise I can come up with is that I can shoot 1080 50p when I go in 2D (using the TD20), whilst I am stuck to 1080 50i doing the same shooting in 3D. It will be interesting to see if I can notice the difference in sharpness between those two shots. As an amateur, for now I believe I would only see differences when objects start moving fast. The 50p 2D picture should show smoother movement. If I do not notice difference in sharpness and avoid fast moving objects and fast camera movement, I have the “limited” 3D effect as an extra when I shoot 3D 1080 50i.  Because, even as a 2D camera, the TD20V well out performs my previous (and now son owned) Sony HDR-XR155. If I do not see dramatic differences and can live with the fact in 3D mode I will have less manual control or scenery functions available, I am fine using the 3D capturing mode (with my son shooting 2D as a back-up with his XR155.
> 
> Using a stereoscopic tweek in editing software might just do the trick enough for me. If not, perhaps using a SBE will give me that bit more 3D on long shots. But at first I will experiment in positioning the convergence point at various places, using various zoom settings and see what that does once viewed on my 2 metre 50 centimetre screen.



As Don says, getting the most of a wider interaxial is challenging. IMO, it's definitely worth it, but the best way to find out if an SBE is going to work for you is to experiment. One thing you don't have to do is move 50 meters back from your subject. I can make the SBE for my JVC TD1 work well at distances as close as ~15' (4-5 meters), depending on the subject matter and background. One big problem is setting the convergence point, especially with subjects at, say, 15' in the foreground and way off into the distance. To make that work, you're probably going to have to be willing to put up with edge violations. If you don't, distant objects will be too divergent (especially with a larger screen), and your viewers will experience discomfort. The disparity between left and right images will exceed the 2.5-3" eye separation of the average human being.


I'm guess-timating that I use roughly 5-10% SBE shots (maybe even less) in a video I'm working on. While it's not a lot, I really like the added punch those shots give the sequences where I use them. On the long shots where I didn't have the SBE with me, things don't turn out nearly as well. You may have seen it, but if not take a look at this video I did for Cyclopital3D. The JVC TD10 and the Sony TD10 have a very similar interaxial distances, and the SBE works much the same way. It might be even more valuable for the Sony, since it has a longer zoom in 3D, but don't quote me on that. I've never shot anything with a TD10. Compare the with/without shots of the waterfall. These were taken from at least 50 meters away, and the difference is striking. The shots of the drum bridge also show how much more dramatic the SBE shot is. All these shots were done at the same distance. I had to zoom in with the SBE on the camera (same as the Sony) - roughly 1.1x normal when adjusted. I shot the SBE stuff first, then re-framed to get the same shot with the normal JVC lens.


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## Bergj69

Thanks for your feedback!


To be honoust: the availability of a SBE for the TD10 gave me a hard time making a final decision: both the TD10 and TD20 were available as second hand eBay objects (and only 1 item available of each). Since the TD20 has no SBE available yet, choosing the TD10 was tempting. It was a rough $65 cheaper as the TD20, but that one came with a carry bag and a class 10 16GB SD card. And the pictures of the TD20 ad also showed all accesories like cables, user guide and remote. The TD10 ad only showed the camcorder and some vague box of unknown origin. Most reviews commented the TD20 layed more comfortable in the hand than the TD10, that together with the higher resolution and the 1 millimeter bigger CMOS made me go for the TD20 whilst keeping the fingers crossed for a rapid release of a Cyclopital SBE for the TD20.


Your estimates of percentage of footage making use of the SBE will pretty much be equivalent on my estimate of average useage in my material, I agree, that 7% will have a far more "Wow" effect with a SBE. I haven't seen your footage yet, but I will certainly look at it tomorrow.


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## Bergj69

Still struggling on what to do. I've put out a cry for "HELP" at the TD20 thread. Since that has been inactive for a year, I decided to put a link in this thread. Please help me with deciding on what to do... at the TD20 thread


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## Bergj69


OK, the final verdict: get myself a TD10. Unfortunatly, I missed the eBay auction. So, should any of you want to get rid of his/her TD10: [email protected], just let me know what you want for it!

 

Cheers!

 

Jeroen.


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## Bergj69

Got lucky, refurbished TD10 is on its way. Bought it at Amazon. They suggested bying a Wasabi battery set and charger. Reviews vary quite a lot,,some give this cheap option 5 stars, others only 2. Any of you TD10 users with experience with the Wasabi set? It seems too much of a bargain to be any good.... But how did it get so much positive feedback if it is junk? Wasabi


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## FredTevnon

*Hello Don ...about using two td10 instead of cyclopital SBE...*

I was about to buy the expensive SBE for td10 to do 3D shootings of Paris- France which requires big distance between the camera and the monuments ( at least 30 meters ) but I'm not convinced in this technique , first because of the obligation to do a cropping by zooming and secondly because you can't graduate the IA regarding to each situation.
And the thing is that I own two td10 and use vegas pro 13 ! So I got really happy to read your words about this new possibility.
I would like to find more information about the calculation of the IA and also the problem of the synchronization.
Furthermore , the idea would be to have two files in 50 p instead of the two 50 i you get with a single td10.

Hope to read from you soon on these subjects.

Frédéric.


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## Wolfgang S.

I am not Don, but a good place to start with calculation formulas for the stereo base is the old page of John Wattie, where he has collected a lot of informations about the Bercovitz formula:


http://nzphoto.tripod.com/stereo/3dtake/fbercowitz.htm


There are also a lot of excel sheets on this and on other pages, but it is hardcore work to adjust that for specific cameras. There are also calculators for the iphone or other smartphones available.


I have also three TD10 units, and two are equiped to be used on a sbs-rig but also on an mirror rig. The limitation of two TD10 units is that the minimum IA you will have - especially if you shoot in 1080 50p - is about 11cm. Fine enough for monuments, but not great for every situation.


A first task is to adjust the two units before shooting - go in full zoom and adjust the two units to a point far away. That will take some time to find out how that is done in real life.


Synchronisation can be done by using some lanc-controllers - for example ste-fra lanc
http://www.digi-dat.de/produkte/index_eng.html



Another hint is to use a clear audio signal when you start to record with both units - that will help you to adjust the footage later in Vegas.


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## Don Landis

In addition to what Wolfgang said, with two TD-10's you will put them in 2D mode each and set the recording to 1080 24P. ( or 25p ) Now you are shooting in a native file format for highest resolution compatible with Blu ray, no interlace errors. While you can sync up two video cameras easily without a sync controller, you will always need to use sound sync to line up the frames and absent genlock which to my knowledge none of the controllers do anyway, you won't have complete frame lock so high speed motion will have some errors. But what the controller will do pretty well is sync the zoom control which is nice. 

Wolfgang did describe the correct way to align the cameras. I suggest turning on the grid lines in the TD10 screen so you have some cross hairs to sight in on. 

As for the IA calculation, it's really not critical but unless your minimum distant object is close, you can use something pretty wide. My widest is 1 meter IA that I use to shoot scenes that have objects 1000 meters or more away and then other factors will cause you trouble. You will be needing haze filters, and hopefully thin cold air for those distances. Consequently, I shoot in high altitude or really cold winter days in Death Valley. Cold thin air in the desert is the clearest. 

As for calculations, the easiest are the app calculators. I have one on my ipad that is my favorite. You enter all the important data on your cameras and your shooting location and it will tell you what your IA needs to be. Rule of thumb- wider angle lenses will be less critical but produces the least Z axis separation on the distant objects.

If you have an ipad, go the the ap store and do a search on "3D calculators" They are free so try a few out and see how you like them. I also have one on my android phone that is OK too. 

Final word of caution- Be really careful not to have any close objects in your shot, including the ground in front of you or you will never be able to pair the left and right for good 3D. Foor example, shooting a 1 meter IA at the rim of the Grand Canyon or at Bryce Canyon worked because I could set up the camera right at a 2000' dropoff. If I saw trees and other stuff blocking the shot, I pushed the cameras together or switched to my Z10K. So, in a video like Death Valley you will see my rig and I shoot all three cameras rolling so if any close objects got in the shot I switched from the 1 meter IA to the Z10K in the center.


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## Wolfgang S.

I agree with all points that Don said - beside one: to use controller is important to start the readout of both sensors at the same time. True, this is no genlock, bur the only way to avoid that L and R are out of sync for a certain duration. Controllers cannot avoid that a shift out of sync will take place. But they tell you when that has happened and allow you to know when you have to start your cameras new.


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## van Gageldonk

It's been a while since the last post. Hype is over. a shame. I'm still very much into S3D but we can't seem to be able to buy a 3D camera like our TD10. Mine is starting to become unreliable.... the right eye view sometimes gives a different lighting than the left one. Have to correct that in post. Are you guys still using TD10?


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## Bergj69

Yep, still using it. Mostly with the Cyclopital Stereo Base Extender attached. And only twice a year (holiday's). I'm lagging behind in the editing though... Something to do for next winter.

Had a quick look at some raw footage I shot at the Grand Canyon with the TD10, equipped with the SBE, it was breathtaking (watched it using my Full HD Optoma 3D beamer), so I'm puzzled as to why the consumer 3D market has collapsed.


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## Bergj69

Yep, still using it. Mostly with the Cyclopital Stereo Base Extender attached. And only twice a year (holiday's). I'm lagging behind in the editing though... Something to do for next winter.

Had a quick look at some raw footage I shot at the Grand Canyon with the TD10, equipped with the SBE, it was breathtaking (watched it using my Full HD Optoma 3D beamer), so I'm puzzled as to why the consumer 3D market has collapsed.


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## Wolfgang S.

I still have here 3 Sony TD10 units and 1 Z10K - and I use them from time to time when I shoot in s3D. They are all working. But we have to handle them carefully. There will not be any replacement available.


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## termite

Bergj69 said:


> Yep, still using it. Mostly with the Cyclopital Stereo Base Extender attached. And only twice a year (holiday's). I'm lagging behind in the editing though... Something to do for next winter.
> 
> Had a quick look at some raw footage I shot at the Grand Canyon with the TD10, equipped with the SBE, it was breathtaking (watched it using my Full HD Optoma 3D beamer), so I'm puzzled as to why the consumer 3D market has collapsed.


Do you know if there's a SBE available for TD20?
Has anyone used one?


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## Roger Gunkel

I don't have and have never used any Sony 3D cameras, but do have the JVD GS1 which is very similar in general performance to the Sony's. I love the convenience of everything being in sync, and being able to edit almost as easily as 2d, BUT the lack of a wider base for greater stereo depth on further objects is always going to be a limitation. 

A few people here use twin 3D cams for extending the base, but although you can use a better picture quality by setting each cam to 2d, synching then requires much more time and care, as does image alignment etc. since about 2009, before I had the JVC, I have been using pairs of matching 2d cams for when I require wider or variable IA spacing, and still use various pairs including in 4K.

I'm just wondering why nobody seems to be recommending using twin 2d cam video rigs, rather than twin 3D cams. It is far cheaper to get a pair of modern HD cams, than trying to get hold of rapidly disappearing and aging 3D cams. By far my most heavily used twin rig for the past few years has been a pair of Panasonic SD700 cams, long since superseded, but still giving great HD performance. They are synched for stop/start, zoom etc with the standard IR remote, which works on both cameras at the same time. Usually they start in perfect sync, but if they are a frame out, they can easily be audio synched in post. They are also small enough to get IA down to about 60mm and I use both viewfinders like a telescope for a full live 3D view.

I also have other twin rigs, with a pair of Panasonic FZ200s and another pair of FZ1000s, both of which are synched by a push button remote, or a pair of wireless triggers if they are further apart. All 3 rigs are able to take high res stills and video via the triggers or remotes and the FZ1000s give me 4K aswell, but only the smaller SD700s allow for a much narrower 'human eye' IA.

I usually use a 300mm wide tripod plate by Hague to vary the base, but a tripod mounted slider rig for the cameras would give even further separation if required.

So the lack of new 3D cams coming onto the market really doesn't inhibit 3D filming. I even have a pair of SJ4000s (GoPro clones) that cost me less than £100 for the pair new!

Roger


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## MLXXX

Hi Roger, you may be perfectly well aware of this issue. However I suspect that occasional readers of this part of AVS Forum might not appreciate that generally speaking you cannot achieve perfect Left and Right image synch with two separate home consumer video cameras, even if controlling them using a single remote control.



Roger Gunkel said:


> By far my most heavily used twin rig for the past few years has been a pair of Panasonic SD700 cams, long since superseded, but still giving great HD performance. They are synched for stop/start, zoom etc with the standard IR remote, which works on both cameras at the same time. Usually they start in perfect sync, but if they are a frame out, they can easily be audio synched in post.


When you wrote "perfect synch", I believe you meant that the two cameras were out of kilter with each other by no more than half a frame. (In any case where the mismatch in the capture time of the raw footage happened to be greater than half a frame, then the Left or Right clip could be advanced or retarded one or more whole frames in the editing so as to reduce the discrepancy between the clips to no more than half a frame.)

With unynchronized capture, the effect of any discrepancy can be minimised to be no more than a half-frame. Use of a single remote control is no guarantee the two cameras responding to the remote control will start up at the same time (say to the nearest millisecond) for video capturing purposes. Generally, there will be significant variations in starting up.

I note that at 60fps (USA), half a frame is 8.33mS. At 50fps (Europe), half a frame is 10.00mS.

For certain fast moving scenes (such as a close-up of a water fountain) a timing mismatch of several milliseconds will markedly compromise the 3D effect for many viewers. (I myself see a mirage effect or a general blurring.) Other viewers may not notice any anomaly.



Roger Gunkel said:


> So the lack of new 3D cams coming onto the market really doesn't inhibit 3D filming. I even have a pair of SJ4000s (GoPro clones) that cost me less than £100 for the pair new!
> 
> Roger


I think there is a significant limitation in using separate non-synchronised cameras (be they 2D or 3D camera models). The 3D effect from the captures will not be successful for fast motion in the foreground; unless you are lucky enough to find that the two cameras happened to be out of kilter with each other by only a small fraction of a frame, for the particular take. For less demanding scenes, you can get by without synchronization at the time of capture, if using 50i/50p or 60i/50p. (Using an unsynchronized capture frame rate of only 24p or 25p would be risky, unless movement of the camera, and in the scene were sedate.)

There are other issues that can arise too with two independent cameras, such as variations in automatic exposure, focus, and colour balance.

I do regret the disappearance of consumer level 3D video camera models from retailers' shelves. Even with GoPros, I rarely see a 3D kit on display these days.


----------



## Roger Gunkel

MLXXX said:


> Hi Roger, you may be perfectly well aware of this issue. However I suspect that occasional readers of this part of AVS Forum might not appreciate that generally speaking you cannot achieve perfect Left and Right image synch with two separate home consumer video cameras, even if controlling them using a single remote control.
> 
> 
> When you wrote "perfect synch", I believe you meant that the two cameras were out of kilter with each other by no more than half a frame. (In any case where the mismatch in the capture time of the raw footage happened to be greater than half a frame, then the Left or Right clip could be advanced or retarded one or more whole frames in the editing so as to reduce the discrepancy between the clips to no more than half a frame.)
> 
> With unynchronized capture, the effect of any discrepancy can be minimised to be no more than a half-frame. Use of a single remote control is no guarantee the two cameras responding to the remote control will start up at the same time (say to the nearest millisecond) for video capturing purposes. Generally, there will be significant variations in starting up.
> 
> I note that at 60fps (USA), half a frame is 8.33mS. At 50fps (Europe), half a frame is 10.00mS.
> 
> For certain fast moving scenes (such as a close-up of a water fountain) a timing mismatch of several milliseconds will markedly compromise the 3D effect for many viewers. (I myself see a mirage effect or a general blurring.) Other viewers may not notice any anomaly.
> 
> 
> I think there is a significant limitation in using separate non-synchronised cameras (be they 2D or 3D camera models). The 3D effect from the captures will not be successful for fast motion in the foreground; unless you are lucky enough to find that the two cameras happened to be out of kilter with each other by only a small fraction of a frame, for the particular take. For less demanding scenes, you can get by without synchronization at the time of capture, if using 50i/50p or 60i/50p. (Using an unsynchronized capture frame rate of only 24p or 25p would be risky, unless movement of the camera, and in the scene were sedate.)
> 
> There are other issues that can arise too with two independent cameras, such as variations in automatic exposure, focus, and colour balance.
> 
> I do regret the disappearance of consumer level 3D video camera models from retailers' shelves. Even with GoPros, I rarely see a 3D kit on display these days.


I have been producing 3D video for a number of years, some of which I get paid to produce as part of my full time video filming business, so am well aware of the synch problems with two ungenlocked cameras. I'm also well aware that if you want to take best cinema quality 3D footage, then you need to spend huge ammounts of money and probably won't be asking questions on this forum.

My post was mainly in response to other posters talking about having two separate 3D cameras for a wider stereo base, which would give exactly the same sync problems as a pair of 2d cameras. When I mentioned 'perfect sync' from the remotes, I meant that there was often no need to adjust the two video streams in post as they started within half a frame of each other. 

Unless you are watching action shots with lots of very fast movement, an accuracy in PAL of 1/50th of a second between video streams gives a perfectly acceptable 3D image for the type of personal documentary work and contracted wedding work that I do. The more noticeable problems arise when the streams start drifting further on longer duration shots. This of course is not really a problem when taking short clips or if cutaways are taken with a second pair during long shots. The cutaways or different angles will enable the long clips to be cut and resynched if necessary. 

All my synching is done to the audio track using auto synching to the natural sound or a cue signal if appropriate, although it is pretty straight forward to visually sync from the audio waveform.

Using a pair of consumer cams is going to make matching the streams more time consuming if you choose to use auto everything. I always manually set the cameras for white balance, exposure etc and never use in camera stabilizing as that is impossible to get identical on both cameras. I have frequently used Mercalli though to stabilise already synched footage. 

I think we need to be clear here that there is a big difference between commercially produced 3D video for broadcast or cinema and video for the use of family and friends. Most reading these threads will be wishing to produce 3D video for their own use and it is perfectly viable to make 3D video using pairs of cameras at almost any price providing you have some control over manual settings and follow basic 3D filming practice. 

I would like to encourage more people to try 3D video filming and pointing out simpler and cost effective ways to do it seems a good way to go.

Roger


----------



## tomtastic

Roger Gunkel said:


> I'm just wondering why nobody seems to be recommending using twin 2d cam video rigs, rather than twin 3D cams. It is far cheaper to get a pair of modern HD cams, than trying to get hold of rapidly disappearing and aging 3D cams. By far my most heavily used twin rig for the past few years has been a pair of Panasonic SD700 cams, long since superseded, but still giving great HD performance. They are synched for stop/start, zoom etc with the standard IR remote, which works on both cameras at the same time. Usually they start in perfect sync, but if they are a frame out, they can easily be audio synched in post. They are also small enough to get IA down to about 60mm and I use both viewfinders like a telescope for a full live 3D view.
> Roger


I would say they use dual 3D cams solely because it doubles the arsenal of 3D cameras that user has, also like you mentioned in your next post, a lot of the usage here isn't for professional use, but recreation and 3D enthusiasts with various levels of experience. If you're traveling to say a National Park and shooting scenery in 3D, one person can only carry so much so taking two 3D cameras that could shoot in 3D if needed by themselves, plus shoot in wide I.A. 3D works for that person. 

Of course the biggest problems with all in one 3D cameras are the fixed lens spacing and performance of the cameras (small sensors and consumer grade in-camera compression).

I agree, if I was going that route I'd probably use better 2D cameras. The other problem would then be that you'd need a mirror rig for close up 3D as the cameras won't be close enough to shoot anything under 10 to 15 feet. And that's more weight and money and time for most enthusiasts.

I experimented briefly with dual cameras with a cheap GoPro like system but learned that the best outcome was a half frame off sync. I would have to unqauntize to frames to get them paired up correctly but I understand that would result in interlacing issues if it re renders frames to match. It was only a 130.00 experiment for the cameras and I built the case for around 5.00. A good learning experience. The lens spacing I made adjustable from 1.5 to 3 inches and with no zoom on these action cams it was perfectly fine. As long as there's not much quick movement up close they work ok.

If I were to move to a better 2D camera I think I'd go the genlock route. I have both the Panasonic Z10k and the Panasonic 3DA1 which has the wider I.A. and the genlock and alignment are something that go unappreciated in 3D. It's just something that you expect with shooting 3D after you own one of these and then moving to something that isn't aligned and synced out of the box and it gets really frustrating.

If you're shooting long distance shots, then it's probably not a big deal to have perfect sync, but if you want more range out of your 3D system, using it up close, mid range and distance, it's the better way to go.


----------



## MLXXX

Just before posting this, I've noticed a post from tomtastic. There will be a degree of overlap in some of my comments below.



Roger Gunkel said:


> My post was mainly in response to other posters talking about having two separate 3D cameras for a wider stereo base, which would give exactly the same sync problems as a pair of 2d cameras. When I mentioned 'perfect sync' from the remotes, I meant that there was often no need to adjust the two video streams in post as they started within half a frame of each other.


Yes a number of the 3D enthusiasts who already had one 3D video camera chose to purchase a matching second 3D camera for hyperstereo, rather than make use of two 2D cameras.

Reasons for that could include:

The first 3D camera could be used alone for regular 3D shots.
The second 3D camera could be pressed into service for hyperstereo and provide an excellent match of lens characteristics and image sensor characteristics.
The two 3D cameras could be used for simultaneous regular 3D shots from different angles.

But yes someone with no 3D camera could decide to purchase two 2D cameras and mount them in such a fashion that they could be used for regular 3D or hyperstereo. There are number of challenges here:


Achieving basic physical alignment of the lenses of the two cameras
If telescopic lenses are to be used at an intermediate extent of zoom, achieving a matching of the zoom [this could prove very difficult]
As previously discussed, (for a given aperture) manually setting the exposure time of each camera
Having a solution for focus (perhaps allowing auto-focus and accepting there will sometimes be disparities between Left and Right)
As previously discussed, avoiding scenes that will highlight lack of synchrony in the capture of the Left and Right images, e.g. a dog running into view in the foreground; a horse race, or an athletics event.
Being prepared to slip the Left or Right footage by one or more frames in the post production editing phase where the cameras for some reason were unable to start within half a frame of each other.

I note that for 3D shooting with a normal stereo base, a single dedicated 3D video camera would be considerably more convenient to use than two unsynchronised 2D cameras. With hyperstereo, inconvenience may be unavoidable.

_The future_

I'm hoping there'll be a new crop of home consumer 3D cameras in 2016. For example I see quite a potential to design a 4K 2D camera for alternative use as as 2K stereoscopic camera with the addition of an adaptor lens. This would provide Full HD 3D.

As for a new dedicated semi-professional 3D camera, I would hope to see the option to vary the lens separation and even the toe-in. I note that the closer the subject is to the camera lenses, the more important it can become to have the option of turning the lenses inwards, mimicking the convergence of human eyes necessary to view very close objects clearly with both eyes.


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## Roger Gunkel

MLXXX said:


> Just before posting this, I've noticed a post from tomtastic. There will be a degree of overlap in some of my comments below.
> 
> 
> Yes a number of the 3D enthusiasts who already had one 3D video camera chose to purchase a matching second 3D camera for hyperstereo, rather than make use of two 2D cameras.
> 
> Reasons for that could include:
> 
> The first 3D camera could be used alone for regular 3D shots.
> The second 3D camera could be pressed into service for hyperstereo and provide an excellent match of lens characteristics and image sensor characteristics.
> The two 3D cameras could be used for simultaneous regular 3D shots from different angles.
> 
> But yes someone with no 3D camera could decide to purchase two 2D cameras and mount them in such a fashion that they could be used for regular 3D or hyperstereo. There are number of challenges here:
> 
> 
> Achieving basic physical alignment of the lenses of the two cameras
> If telescopic lenses are to be used at an intermediate extent of zoom, achieving a matching of the zoom [this could prove very difficult]
> As previously discussed, (for a given aperture) manually setting the exposure time of each camera
> Having a solution for focus (perhaps allowing auto-focus and accepting there will sometimes be disparities between Left and Right)
> As previously discussed, avoiding scenes that will highlight lack of synchrony in the capture of the Left and Right images, e.g. a dog running into view in the foreground; a horse race, or an athletics event.
> Being prepared to slip the Left or Right footage by one or more frames in the post production editing phase where the cameras for some reason were unable to start within half a frame of each other.
> 
> I note that for 3D shooting with a normal stereo base, a single dedicated 3D video camera would be considerably more convenient to use than two unsynchronised 2D cameras. With hyperstereo, inconvenience may be unavoidable.
> 
> _The future_
> 
> I'm hoping there'll be a new crop of home consumer 3D cameras in 2016. For example I see quite a potential to design a 4K 2D camera for alternative use as as 2K stereoscopic camera with the addition of an adaptor lens. This would provide Full HD 3D.
> 
> As for a new dedicated semi-professional 3D camera, I would hope to see the option to vary the lens separation and even the toe-in. I note that the closer the subject is to the camera lenses, the more important it can become to have the option of turning the lenses inwards, mimicking the convergence of human eyes necessary to view very close objects clearly with both eyes.


I think it all depends on what your requirements are and how much work you want to put into the end product, balanced against how much it is all going to cost you.

I have a Fuji W1, a Fuji W3, JVC GS-TD1, 2xGoPro hero3s, 2xSJ4000s, 2xLumix FZ200s, 2xLUMIX FZ2000s for 4k, 2Panasonic SD700/750s with a 3D adapter for a third SD750 and an LG3d phone, so I am pretty well tooled up for anything I may want to film. I tend to use the JVC for all the general and fairly close video work, with the twin SD700 rig for very quick and easy close to wide shots. The LUMIX cams tend to be used more for HD stills and video which requires a bigger imaging chip, but are far less portable than the SD700 rig. 

The twin SD700 are easily aligned on a simple base plate and the zooms match very well with the remote although any minor variations can be adjusted in post by zooming in on or cropping slightly on one of the images (I only zoom for reframing) They also start usually on the same frame, but if not, the chances of getting them exactly half a frame out is remote. Colour matching with two identical cameras is usually not needed if they are set up properly, but is quite straight forward in post if required. The SD700s are usually on a very simple base plate, aligned, and used more like a pair of binoculars, with a bigger base plate for wider base if needed.

The JVC twin lens is by far the most convenient for instant 3D and very little editing correction, and for the same reason I still love the Fuji W3 for quick stills. Most of my non movement stills are cha cha with the LUMIX FZ1000 or with both of them twinned for more serious work.

For those that already have a 3D camera, then getting a matching one if you can find it can be useful, particularly for two angles as mentioned, but with little available new and used ones holding their price, anyone starting from scratch would find it far more economical using a matching 2d pair in my opinion and it will help with an understanding of 3D techniques.

Roger


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## MLXXX

Roger Gunkel said:


> The twin SD700 are easily aligned on a simple base plate and the zooms match very well with the remote although any minor variations can be adjusted in post by zooming in on or cropping slightly on one of the images (I only zoom for reframing) They also start usually on the same frame, but if not, the chances of getting them exactly half a frame out is remote.


Half a frame out is the worst case; perfect synch the best case. Indeed, the chances of _either_ exact occurrence are remote.

With 2D cameras more generally, the result will tend to lie somewhere between the two extremes, and vary from take to take. (Some takes will be closer to perfect synch, some closer to a half frame discrepancy [where applicable, after slipping one of the clips along the timeline by one or more full frames before pairing them for 3D].) I have recommended that if shooting a water fountain, several takes be done (powering down one of the cameras between takes if that helps), increasing the chances of a favourable result. Some of the videos uploaded to this forum with unsynched cameras have included fortuitously close to perfect synch footage of critical subject matter in part of the video, and poorer results in other parts. My eyes unfortunately are very sensitive to timing mismatches!

A while back I tried a very cheap solution: two web cams attached to a lap top pc, and controlled by the same software. I had hoped that this might result in good synch. I found that the synch was usually better than one-quarter of a frame out, so there was some benefit in the arrangement, but it wasn't good enough to eliminate anomalies for my eyes for many everday scenes. The arrangement was useful though for hyperstereo of distant scenes.

In case readers of this thread haven't seen this before and might possibly be interested, here is a reference to a video I prepared in mid-2012 to illustrate the effect of relatively small discrepancies in synch on the apparent motion of the balls of an anniversary clock:


MLXXX said:


> 
> ...
> 
> I've prepared a video to show the effects of a mismatch between Left and Right timing on apparent motion. I captured at 60i with my Sony HDR-TD10, extracted Left and Right (using the MVC to AVI converter from 3dtv.at), and with VirtualDub converted to 60p (using odd and even fieds). I used VirtualDub again, with its motion interpolation filter, to arrive at 240p. The result was as if I had captured the moving orbs of the anniversary clock at 239.76fps!
> 
> I then used VirtualDub to harvest every tenth frame to get to 23.976fps (a frame "decimate" option in VirtualDub). But the point of harvest could be offset by 1, 2, ..., 10 frames, to simulate capture delays ranging from 4.17mS (1/10th of a frame at 23.976fps) to 41.7mS (one frame at 23.976fps). Even at 4.17mS, an effect on the motion of the orbs is apparent for my vision. Here is a link to the YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_m4ETc-ydY
> 
> The video lasts just under 7 minutes. The smallest mismatch shown (4.17mS), begins at 3m 15 sec.
> 
> ...


As 7 minutes is a long time, it might be convenient to proceed directly to the point 3m 15 sec into the video, where a mismatch of only 4.17mS (1/240th second) is demonstrated.


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## Bergj69

termite said:


> Do you know if there's a SBE available for TD20?
> Has anyone used one?


No, there is not (and probably will not ever become) a SBE available for the TD20. The lenses are mounted too close on the TD20 model to make the mirror construction possible, the distance on the TD10 is just that wee bit more and the minimum required spacing for a SBE to function. In fact, that is the only reason why I purchased myself a TD10 on top of the TD20 that I already had! So that I could equip it with a SBE. With the SBE mounted on my TD10 I cannot increase the 3D range as much as one can using a rig, but working with a rig puts the whole 3D project at a much more advanced level, including effort and time required both in shooting (setting up the rig) and in editing.

The set of TD20 and TD10 with SBE was portable enough (albeit a TD10 fitted with a SBE unit is still quite bulky) to carry along on my holiday's and use for "from the hip shooting". I had the SBE permanently mounted on the TD10 to have it readily available for the long shots and used the TD20 for the nearby shots. I simply do not have enough time to extend my holidays long enough to see just as much as I did now and shoot footage at the same spots but using rigs for the long shots (setting up, shooting, breaking up, etc). Don Landis has made breathtaking 3D projects with his rig, but it very likely has taken him quite a lot of time to produce them (figuring out the setup of the rigs, carrying the stuff around, setting it up, fine tuning the hardware, etc, etc). As I said, by using the SBE I managed to increase the 3D depth such that for me it still produced breathtaking shots from the Grand Canyon and Sedona. But footage made using a rig and a lot of time will definitely be more impressive.


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## termite

Bergj69 said:


> No, there is not (and probably will not ever become) a SBE available for the TD20. The lenses are mounted too close on the TD20 model to make the mirror construction possible, the distance on the TD10 is just that wee bit more and the minimum required spacing for a SBE to function. In fact, that is the only reason why I purchased myself a TD10 on top of the TD20 that I already had! So that I could equip it with a SBE. With the SBE mounted on my TD10 I cannot increase the 3D range as much as one can using a rig, but working with a rig puts the whole 3D project at a much more advanced level, including effort and time required both in shooting (setting up the rig) and in editing.
> 
> The set of TD20 and TD10 with SBE was portable enough (albeit a TD10 fitted with a SBE unit is still quite bulky) to carry along on my holiday's and use for "from the hip shooting". I had the SBE permanently mounted on the TD10 to have it readily available for the long shots and used the TD20 for the nearby shots. I simply do not have enough time to extend my holidays long enough to see just as much as I did now and shoot footage at the same spots but using rigs for the long shots (setting up, shooting, breaking up, etc). Don Landis has made breathtaking 3D projects with his rig, but it very likely has taken him quite a lot of time to produce them (figuring out the setup of the rigs, carrying the stuff around, setting it up, fine tuning the hardware, etc, etc). As I said, by using the SBE I managed to increase the 3D depth such that for me it still produced breathtaking shots from the Grand Canyon and Sedona. But footage made using a rig and a lot of time will definitely be more impressive.



Great info. Thanks Bergj69!


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## 3DBob

Please share some results directly or through links, guys. The proof is in the pudding...err 3D videos that came out of all this experience.


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## Barry C

I have found that using the SBE on a JVC-TD1 and then adding additional depth with the Edius Stereoscopic filter horizontal slider gives a sufficient 3D bump to exceed what the camera and SBE alone can do. Here's an example of some Yosemite footage which was done in this manner. To me, the added depth effect combined with the SBE looks good, however, I realize that some people will disagree and perceive the 3D effect as ineffective with this technique. It's all in the eye of the beholder, no real right or wrong, IMHO! The important thing is that I like the way it looks


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## MLXXX

Barry C said:


> To me, the added depth effect combined with the SBE looks good, however, I realize that some people will disagree and perceive the 3D effect as ineffective with this technique. It's all in the eye of the beholder, no real right or wrong, IMHO!


I particularly like a scene near the end (at 5min 13sec) of a mountain peak in the middle to far distance. For my eyes there's a full and interesting 3D effect in the overall composition of that scene.


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## Don Landis

Using the SBE is a tiny step in the right direction but, still El Capitan is flat. To achieve a real 3D solid of the distant mountain your IA needs to be much wider than the SBE permits. 

With an 18mm lens, you would need 1 meter or more of IA for a distance of 2000 meters and maintain a minimum distance of 100 meters to the near object in the scene. 

What I see is what you were able to achieve with the tools you had. You got improvement of 3D of the near trees in the scene only as a result of the SBE. The effect H slider only pushes the far distant mountain back farther away. This adds the illusion of more distance but not depth of the mountain itself. Stereographers call this the cardboard cutout look. Personally, I don't mind that in some 3D but it's no substitute for the look of real 3 dimensional capture of a landscape scene to the small TV screen. Of course this practice also has the artifact of miniaturization. I prefer the latter ( more 3 dimensional with some miniaturization ) than the cardboard cutout flat look. The background mountain, if the subject of the scene, should be optimized for 3 dimensional with wide IA, but if the scene's focus is the foreground and the mountain is just background, then the flat look is OK.


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## Wolfgang S.

Sure, the hyperstereo aspects are great points I think. When pairing two TD10 units I used the ste-fra lance to measure how long the units stay in sync - tends to be something between 30-45 minutes in my case. And I also use the side-by-side rig with an IO of up to 1.5 meters - what is fine for many shootings (typically I use the 60cm base when I am travelling).


So sure, I also recommend to use two cameras - and I still like the idea to use two TD10 units to do that. For much smaller IOs one can use one unit of the TD10/Z10000 too, or has to invest in a beam splitter rig.


All of that is a question of equipment only.


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## tomtastic

I think with scenes like mountains or something large and in the distance, easier to not worry about making that the convergence point. Like Don said, you'd probably need anywhere from several yards to hundreds of feet to get it right, depending on how far away they are. Just set up shots with something in the foreground either as positive parallax or set in. It's not like our eyes see mountains in 3D anyway.


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## Barry C

Don Landis said:


> Using the SBE is a tiny step in the right direction but, still El Capitan is flat. To achieve a real 3D solid of the distant mountain your IA needs to be much wider than the SBE permits.
> 
> With an 18mm lens, you would need 1 meter or more of IA for a distance of 2000 meters and maintain a minimum distance of 100 meters to the near object in the scene.
> 
> What I see is what you were able to achieve with the tools you had. You got improvement of 3D of the near trees in the scene only as a result of the SBE. The effect H slider only pushes the far distant mountain back farther away. This adds the illusion of more distance but not depth of the mountain itself. Stereographers call this the cardboard cutout look. Personally, I don't mind that in some 3D but it's no substitute for the look of real 3 dimensional capture


Don, this is exactly what I meant when I said that some people would disagree with this approach and percieve the 3D effect as ineffective Or, in your case, percieve the mountain- Half Dome, the narrow FOV with the SBE wouldn't let me to get all of El Capitan- as flat But, we all pervieve things differently, as I don't see it as flat or cardboard at all and, since I am very familiar with this terrain in that I'm in Yosemite at least a few times a year, this depth effect is far more crucial than what would be achieved with a wider IA. Again, this is a very subjective thing, and as I said before, really no right or wrong here. It's just what works for me in the best way to approximate what I actually see in real life.

Forinstance, when shooting scenes such as Yosemite Falls, which is basically water coming down a flat cliff with foreground trees, getting some 3D effect in the foreground trees and then pushing the waterfall back to add depth cues works well. I don't feel that anything would be gained here shooting a waterfall on a flat cliff with a wider IA. Also, I STRONGLY believe- again just my perspective- that much of what our eyes see and percieve as 3D is all about depth between us and the subject. When we see distant subjects, mountains forinstsnce, the 3D interpretation has everything to do with lighting and shading/shadowing of that mountain or other distant object. Considering our eyes are only about 65mm apart, this makes sense. When shooting the ending scenes of Half Dome, artificially adding the correct amount of depth to approximate what I see when I'm there and then letting the natural lighting and shading do the rest, works well for me. However, I find it perfectly acceptable that you should disagree. 

You know I've been trying to get you to come out here so we can join up for a Yosemite trip where you could bring your twin cam rig. It would be very cool to see what effect you would get this way. I have no doubt it would be fantastic. I'm not sure, though, that it would make for a more realistic presentation of what the naked eye actually sees, however. So, any chance I can get you out here next year?


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## Don Landis

OK, first lets keep shading and other aspects of depth illusion out of the discusion because while it does affect the perceived depth it does not relate to the science of the optics for creating a stereoscopic illusion. These other qualities of the image relate more to depth illusion on a 2D image and only enhance the depth of a stereo image.

The practice of sizing the optics for optimizing 3D stereo illusion is not subjective at all. It is a rather precise set of mathematical relationships that optimize the appearance for what you want to see in the stereo illusion. These have all been well defined in various literature and put in layman's terms by one Bernard Mendiburu. In his discussion of the physics he explains that the interocular distance of 65mm is not a limiting factor because the fact that we are not displaying the captured image in real size, but rather shrinking it to a display size. Therefore the use of greater than 65mm for our interaxial cameras is perfectly acceptable to minimize the flatness of distant subjects. 

I mentioned the use of 18mm as the focal length of the camera lens but that is not representative of what the human eye is either. The focal length of the human eye has never been matched with lens optics. Peripheral vision that is near 180° while no horizontal line distortion and a front distance that mimics a 50° lens for front view distance has not yet been achieved. So, because of that no ultra wide angle lens has ever been produced. We can get a fisheye 6mm but then the image is farther way and severely curved. 

So, in stereoscopic 3D the math dictates that the wider the the view angle the less the 3D effect as subject is pushed back. But keeping the same IA, the more we zoom in the better the 3D effect and closer to reality the image looks except that we lose scene width and object or subject depth in the distance. The latter may be recovered by using wider IA. The math says that the wider the field of view, the wider you need to have the IA to achieve the same depth of the distant object. 

In the practical example of the water fall you zoom in and demonstrate the validity of the science because the water fall is now seen in front of the rock wall while in the wider shot the water fall is almost on the rock wall. What I am saying is by increasing the IA of the cameras well beyond the SBE you are limited to, you could achieve an appropriate spread of the water fall over the rock face and do that with a wider angle of view that would be closer to what you see with your eyes in the real world as you project it to your small screen at home. 

In other words, you buy an SBE to improve the depth of your camera for distance but that is not the limit of the science. You can achieve more depth over greater distances with wider angle lenses by using greater spread than the SBE. You have nearly all the tools. You have GoPro's with very wide angle lenses. You have two of them. Now just mount them on a precise slide table to achieve the depth at distance. 

My widest angle lens system for My twin system is 8.8mm on the DSLR's and I have a 1 Meter bench. The trick in using this maximum system is finding a location where I can use it and keep near objects from the scene as the near objects violate the stereo convergence. Places like the rim out on a point at the Grand Canyon would be one of the few locations this can be used. Next year I want to try to shoot NYC skyline in 3D with this setup. I have it now with a 18mm lens and 150mm by shooting from a high point off a cruise ship top deck in the center of NY Harbor. I have a feeling that the Yosemite El Capitan is too compromised with near objects to use the techniques I mentioned. This is one reason my bench uses the twin cameras at either end and the Z10K in the center for a tighter shot. My twin 3D system is not capable of zooming in sync. 


PS- the water fall would also appear blurry due to the problem of the rapid motion not being genlocked, however, the mountain would be sharp as a tack. To fix this I would take your genlock cable for the GoPro's and extend it to 2 meters in length. Might buy an extra one as it would no longer fit in your housing. Just cut the genlock GoPro cable in two, match the wires up with some stock multi wire cable and splice it in. There are wiring diagrams on line I have seen for doing this, but you really don't need them. 

One day we will get out there. I'm pretty much done with everything I wanted to do in Death Valley now. I may make it out there in April if I don't go on a cruise in May. We've also been looking at an Alaskan trip next summer too. All depends on the money. I like paying for the trips when I sign up so that is not an issue when it's time to go. 





Ok enough for now. I need to get back to work on my video.


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## Barry C

Don, I think some of our differences are philosophical. I'm more of a seat of the pants shooter and you're more of an engineer/ technician. I believe in trying to find things that work for me even when it means disregarding the science and orthodoxy. Doesn't mean it's flawed, just means that I don't regard it as gospel. I've found a technique with the SBE that works for me, and I like it. Is it correct from a technical standpoint? No! But, it does look like it does when I'm standing there. With my recent Bahamas underwater projects which utilized the Gopro Duals for the first time, the gospel rule was that you can't shoot wide angle underwater through a flat port without causing chromatic abberations and distortion. Well, I used the flat port, and there were no abberations or distortion that I could see. Is this optically possible? Theoretically, no. But nevertheless, it wasn't there in spite of the established theory. So, again, I'll go with what works for me.

I'm hoping to get to Yosemite this winter- assuming we have one. It's been several years since I've been there when there was snow on the valley floor. It's really quite spectacular and I'd love to get some 3D of the snow on the mountains and trees shot from the same vantage points as the summer shots were shot from. I actually recently created a Yosemite YouTube channel to feature content from Yosemite and surrounding areas in the Sierras. As for the next diving trip, I've pretty much decided on Playa Del Carmen. 

Looking forward to seeing the project you're working on now.


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## Don Landis

The primary reason for using a dome ported lens is that it permits the correction of the 1.33x enlargement factor of any lens, thus preserving the original angle of view of the lens as it was used in air. But, putting a lens behind a flat port will cause the colors of light that pass through the a flat port to the first lens element to arrive at different times causing a chromatic blur to appear on the edges. This varies with different focal length lenses. When shooting in deeper water the distribution of color in the light is reduced so the artifact is less unless using local light source. In a complex scene such as a reef this artifact is often difficult to see, especially when there is nothing to compare it to. 



> Looking forward to seeing the project you're working on now.


 Unlikely as it is one of those personal travel logs that won't be uploaded to YT. I really didn't shoot much of the last trip in 3D. 

I shot the Eclipse from the ship and posted a ship board edited piece using 300 still images put to stop frame animation. That was uploaded while on board. It's 2D of the moon. 

The only thing I did shoot was the Statue of Liberty and NY harbor, departing in 3D. 

I also spent 2 days exploring cemeteries for ancestor's grave markers to put with my ancestor.com family tree. 


I 'll be in Bonaire next month and plan to shoot some U/W on Kleine Bonaire but time will be short as I only have 4 hours to play. It's more of a revisit from my trips there back in the early 70's. I'll probably take the Nabi 3D rig and maybe also the GoPro4 B to shoot some 4K.


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## Barry C

Don Landis said:


> I 'll be in Bonaire next month and plan to shoot some U/W on Kleine Bonaire but time will be short as I only have 4 hours to play. It's more of a revisit from my trips there back in the early 70's. I'll probably take the Nabi 3D rig and maybe also the GoPro4 B to shoot some 4K.


Sounds good


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## van Gageldonk

Bergj69 said:


> Yep, still using it. Mostly with the Cyclopital Stereo Base Extender attached. And only twice a year (holiday's). I'm lagging behind in the editing though... Something to do for next winter.
> 
> Had a quick look at some raw footage I shot at the Grand Canyon with the TD10, equipped with the SBE, it was breathtaking (watched it using my Full HD Optoma 3D beamer), so I'm puzzled as to why the consumer 3D market has collapsed.


Ah, Bergj69, I've found a fellow Dutchman here, would be nice to compare notes?

A bit further down the thread I saw people distinguishing between professional use and 3D for a hobby. Of course there's a difference, I don't argue with that. But I think there's an area between those two: we are not just shooting for cinema or shooting our kids birthday. There's a whole new area of channels out there that's in between professional and 'fun'. It's the area where people experiment, and hopefully find a new way to make some money with this. 

I've been experimenting with TD10 for quite some years now documenting museums and works of art in a way nobody in the museum is noticing me. I combine it with computer graphics and voice over to make a 'proper' presentation. I intend to get more CG into the footage composited into the TD10 3D footage.
The only limitation is the fixed IA distance, but I try to overcome that problem....managing more or less.

Shooting TD10 has posibilities a couple of 2D camera's or a large 3D camera don't have.... it's small and nobody notices it. I hope I can put it to commercial use some day.
Take a look at my museum presentations and other here: (you can even download the S3D .iso file) https://www.youtube.com/user/rnvgrenevg


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## tomtastic

van Gageldonk said:


> I hope I can put it to commercial use some day.
> Take a look at my museum presentations and other here: (you can even download the S3D .iso file) https://www.youtube.com/user/rnvgrenevg


You have to be careful when crossing into the commercial area. Institutions usually have policies regarding filming for commercial use. My local Zoo for instance, has a specific policy for that. You have to be insured and bonded, get prior approval for everything down to the number of crew working to equipment and days of filming.

They may not take notice of you filming as most are just there for the museum experience but if you plan to make money from that, you need to inform those places and find out what their policy is on commercial use of their institution. Better to find out before hand than a lawsuit down the line.

The other thing is filming individuals without their consent. For documentaries it's sort of a gray area. Generally, if you film a feature you should have anyone in that feature on your payroll as actors. For Youtube stuff, I don't worry about it. But if I was doing something for money, I wouldn't have anyone in the frame that I didn't put there. Not worth the legal hassles.


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## Bergj69

You are right about the segment between professional use and "birthday shooting". My Grand Canyon project is almost near publishing state, I've shown it to friends (before watching "The Martian" and they were impressed). I did some extensive cutting, the clip is now reduced to 19 minutes. In my enthousiasme, I deleted so many scenes that my carefully timed music is now misplaced (in the helicopter ride, you hear music and narration during the ride, the helicopter company "Pappilon" has this music clip that they let you hear when you are approach the rim (a rought 100 feet above the trees and than the earth falls downward a mile or so). I managed to identify and download this clip, obviously I want that music at that point in the footage and presently it is not). 

In my humble opinion the Grand Canyon is precisely a location where 3D is "added value" to you "home video", you can almost "feel" the depth of the rim on some of those shots when viewing the footage using a 3D projector. As soon as I have the music in place, I will drop a link here.

I'll have a look at your museum project. I tend to visit musea on a regular basis but rarely carry the TD10 nor TD20. For indoor shooting, I tend to use the TD20, outdoors the TD10 comes in to view, standard the Cyclopital Stereo Base Extender fitted. I had the opportunity to compare shots taken with the TD20, standard IA (smaller than the standard IA of the TD10) and the TD10 with SBE. The TD20 does a relatively good job, apparently, a lot of the depth is created by on board software. Nonetheless, the TD10 Cyclopital shots had more pronounced depth feel in them. The downside of the SBE is the long range you need the have to you subject, since you have to zoom in at least 33% of the zoom travel to prevent gray bars to appear on the right and left side (zoomed in, you see the inside of the mirror construction of the SBE). On top of that, where it can be rather akward to have something too close by in the shot, this is even more so when shooting with the SBE.


----------



## 3DBob

van Gageldonk said:


> Shooting TD10 has posibilities a couple of 2D camera's or a large 3D camera don't have.... it's small and nobody notices it. I hope I can put it to commercial use some day.
> Take a look at my museum presentations and other here: (you can even download the S3D .iso file) https://www.youtube.com/user/rnvgrenevg


Very nice. I have to reconsider my TD10 again. I've been using my dual gopro system for a while now, but the TD10 still looks good on closeup work.


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## van Gageldonk

tomtastic said:


> You have to be careful when crossing into the commercial area. Institutions usually have policies regarding filming for commercial use. My local Zoo for instance, has a specific policy for that. You have to be insured and bonded, get prior approval for everything down to the number of crew working to equipment and days of filming.
> .


 You are right. I’ve been in touch with The Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. When working professionally, I can only work with equipment that’s approved for their insurrance purposes. And only certain equipment can be used. Up to now I've just been making demo's or 'proof of principle' so I guess no problem there now. Thanks for pointing that out though.


----------



## van Gageldonk

3DBob said:


> Very nice. I have to reconsider my TD10 again. I've been using my dual gopro system for a while now, but the TD10 still looks good on closeup work.


thanks Bob. When using closeup I dial in depth all the way and get as close as 60 cm (is that 2 feet?) to get the object at screen level with zero parallax or a bit negative.


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## Don Landis

Professional vs Amateur shooting generally has to do with working for money. It has nothing to do with the equipment.

While what Tom suggested is correct in some limited way, there are other factors to consider as well-

You have to be aware of the laws in your country that limit what you can and cannot do in shooting. 

In the US we have a first Amendment that allows us to shoot video journalism without the need to seek approval, get permits, have certificate of insurances etc. Anyone has a First Amendment right to shoot video as a journalist. There are still limits in that right does not give you permission to breach private property that is not open to the public. In a private property that is open to the public, such as a retail store, you can do your journalism until you are asked to leave and then you must comply. On a public right of way, you may not be required to leave by the government unless there are specific security risks to your being there or your presence disrupts the public good. What you shoot as a journalist is yours to profit to your delight.

If you produce a product to sell such as a fictional video or a documentary, then the production of that falls under certain copyright limits for music, and images contained within your work. People need to sign a model release and professional actors should be paid something to avoid hassle with their agents that are under contract. 

Working as an Amateur is simple and easy, but not profitable. Being a journalist in the US, is a protected right with some restrictions. Shooting a production for a business is costly and full of restrictions that cost a lot of money.


----------



## van Gageldonk

Don Landis said:


> Professional vs Amateur shooting generally has to do with working for money. It has nothing to do with the equipment.
> 
> While what Tom suggested is correct in some limited way, there are other factors to consider as well-
> 
> You have to be aware of the laws in your country that limit what you can and cannot do in shooting.
> 
> In the US we have a first Amendment that allows us to shoot video journalism without the need to seek approval, get permits, have certificate of insurances etc. Anyone has a First Amendment right to shoot video as a journalist. There are still limits in that right does not give you permission to breach private property that is not open to the public. In a private property that is open to the public, such as a retail store, you can do your journalism until you are asked to leave and then you must comply. On a public right of way, you may not be required to leave by the government unless there are specific security risks to your being there or your presence disrupts the public good. What you shoot as a journalist is yours to profit to your delight.
> 
> If you produce a product to sell such as a fictional video or a documentary, then the production of that falls under certain copyright limits for music, and images contained within your work. People need to sign a model release and professional actors should be paid something to avoid hassle with their agents that are under contract.
> 
> Working as an Amateur is simple and easy, but not profitable. Being a journalist in the US, is a protected right with some restrictions. Shooting a production for a business is costly and full of restrictions that cost a lot of money.


Thanks for clearing that out. Being a professional certainly comes with a lot of limitations and costs. My intention with these S3D productions is finding a job in this field or some kind of cooperation. I produce ideas and the productions are the result and showcase. In this case of museum docu's called "Being There" I want to give people the feeling of being there with the added realism of S3D. In future this can be enhanced with HDR, HD-sound, 8K, smell, VR, interaction etc. .....but I'm getting ahead of myself .

My S3D presentationdownloads here Or youtube
René van Gageldonk https://www.youtube.com/user/rnvgrenevghttp://


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## Barry C

I'm sorry to say, but trying to do commercial work with 3D won't be particularly profitable, since very few people have 3D capability- or an interest in it. Forinstance, for the museum piece, how many people who go to, or are interested in seeing a documentary on it, have 3D? Probably very few. So, that will mean you've cut off 90% of your potential customers if you only offer it in 3D.

There is another very talented gentleman on the forum- Joseph Clark- who, off and on over the past few years, has been working on an excellent documentary of the Missouri Botanical Gardens. However, he's well aware of these limitations of 3D and knows he will have to offer a 2D version as well to make it commercially viable.

Again, I take no joy in pointing this out, but unfortunately, this is the state of things with 3D products. Like Don, I'm fortunate enough to be retired and can produce 3D features for my YouTube channels solely as a labor of love without having to be concerned about their commercial viability.


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## tomtastic

Barry C said:


> I'm sorry to say, but trying to do commercial work with 3D won't be particularly profitable,


And along with that docu's themselves aren't profitable either, most are self funded and don't make back what they put into them. It would be far easier to seek employment with an already established stereography crew which already has professional 3D rigs and equipment particularly large sensor cameras and rigs, basically all the stuff a small crew can't manage on their own.

Along with that, 30 ft. jigs, motion control sliders, arial shots, dedicated lighting and sound engineers. Trying to market something shot by one or two individuals shot on prosumer cameras, will appear amateur in comparison. When someone purchases a 3D blu ray, they expect a certain level of expertise, falling short of IMAX expectations they'll leave scathing reviews.

Not to sound negative, I'll given this a lot of thought too, would love to startup my own crew, but I think it would have to be much more than just myself. And getting back to my original point, there's not any profit in it, certainly not from the start.


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## Bergj69

Barry C said:


> I'm sorry to say, but trying to do commercial work with 3D won't be particularly profitable, since very few people have 3D capability- or an interest in it. Forinstance, for the museum piece, how many people who go to, or are interested in seeing a documentary on it, have 3D? Probably very few. So, that will mean you've cut off 90% of your potential customers if you only offer it in 3D.
> 
> There is another very talented gentleman on the forum- Joseph Clark- who, off and on over the past few years, has been working on an excellent documentary of the Missouri Botanical Gardens. However, he's well aware of these limitations of 3D and knows he will have to offer a 2D version as well to make it commercially viable.
> 
> Again, I take no joy in pointing this out, but unfortunately, this is the state of things with 3D products. Like Don, I'm fortunate enough to be retired and can produce 3D features for my YouTube channels solely as a labor of love without having to be concerned about their commercial viability.


Though I personally have the feeling the approachable portion of the market is about to grow on an exponential scale: I think it won't take too long before a large number of the consumers have one ore more Oculus Rift VR sets of glasses in their households. Though set out to create a different sensation (Virtual Reality, you get to see in 3D what you are "looking at", so the view follows the movement of your head, 3D in an entire different setting and put to a "beyond the reach of prosumer standard" since you require an absurd amount of camera's to do the shooting and a supercomputer to do rendering), I believe people will discover the option to simply watch movies in a private setting with that thing. And since it is equipped with two display units, watching 3D movies comes that much closer....

But I might be wrong here...


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## tomtastic

I think VR will be marketed to PR stuff, amusement parks, training programs and of course YT, as far as it taking over theater and primetime TV, I won't live to see it. If people gawk at putting on shades to watch a movie, those goggles will surely be over the top and as difficult as it is to get directors to shoot in native 3D, can you imagine how they would react to 360 shooting? Sure, there might be that one James Cameron that will do it, but it will be far, far niche than 3D.


----------



## Bergj69

tomtastic said:


> I think VR will be marketed to PR stuff, amusement parks, training programs and of course YT, as far as it taking over theater and primetime TV, I won't live to see it. If people gawk at putting on shades to watch a movie, those goggles will surely be over the top and as difficult as it is to get directors to shoot in native 3D, can you imagine how they would react to 360 shooting? Sure, there might be that one James Cameron that will do it, but it will be far, far niche than 3D.


Well.... Today the Worlds very first VR Cinema opened it's doors... Right here in the Netherlands, in Amsterdam. Anyways, I will go next week and do a review right here. . . It is by far not the same as "taking over theatres" but.... I can vividly remember people stating that professional photographers would never (and I repeat: "never") exchange their film camera's for digital camera's simply because digital capturing technology would not be able to reach a high enough level of resolution. And those guys saying that were professionals... And how long ago exactly was this? Less than 2 decades! I mean, only 1 decade ago our televisions had the size of an average refrigerator and you needed to be with two adults to even move these things. Nowadays they are as thick as a sandwich, have tenfold or higher resolution and you get to see what you want when you want it, without even a recorder attached. Science Fiction only a decade ago.... Reality in quite a lot of households today. I think you'll be surprised as to who many amazing technological developments you get to witness in your life time...

Just my two cents..


----------



## tomtastic

Bergj69 said:


> Well.... Today the Worlds very first VR Cinema opened it's doors... Right here in the Netherlands, in Amsterdam. Anyways, I will go next week and do a review right here. . . It is by far not the same as "taking over theatres" but.... I can vividly remember people stating that professional photographers would never (and I repeat: "never") exchange their film camera's for digital camera's simply because digital capturing technology would not be able to reach a high enough level of resolution. And those guys saying that were professionals... And how long ago exactly was this? Less than 2 decades! I mean, only 1 decade ago our televisions had the size of an average refrigerator and you needed to be with two adults to even move these things. Nowadays they are as thick as a sandwich, have tenfold or higher resolution and you get to see what you want when you want it, without even a recorder attached. Science Fiction only a decade ago.... Reality in quite a lot of households today. I think you'll be surprised as to who many amazing technological developments you get to witness in your life time...
> 
> Just my two cents..


Film to digital is hardly a comparable analogy. The result is ultimately the same viewing experience. With 3D and even more with VR, you're asking the viewer to change what they're used to. 3D had a big following after Avatar, then interest dwindled, HFR was rolled out, just about everyone thought it had a negative impact on the movie, for movies and TV, VR will have the toughest hill to climb. It's not going away, but I don't look for movies or TV to change any time soon.

The problem is, for movies and TV, we're used to what works. Really, not much has changed over the past 60 years with film as far as how we view it. There's technical changes, but we still view it the same way. Traditional movies will be around a long time.

With VR, it's a different concept, you're more involved than just a viewer. For movies, we're used to looking ahead and watching a rectangle. Having to turn your head around all over the place and use interactive controls, it will have its place. For entertainment I'm picturing something like an arcade center in the mall or theme parks and for commercial use, specialized flight simulators and training.


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## Bergj69

My comparison film camera vs digital was not intended in the technical sence, more in a sence as to how difficult it is to predict technical developments and what the impact on the public is going to be. 30 years ago experts predicted home computers would only have a limited interest with the public. As to how we watch TV: untill not too long ago one had to consult a TV guide, shows were presented on a linear scale. Now Video On Demand services have changed that. E.g. I missed Homeland entirely, thanks to Netflix I can see the whole series in a row.

I expect more fom the Oculus than I did from 3D TV's. Yes, you need to put on glasses. But the 3D sensation, even when the viewing point is fixed to "straight ahead" will be overwhelming. I believe Oculus can mean the same fore "portable 3D movie's" as the Sony Walkman did for music (there was no such thing as real portable HiFi stereo listening equipment up untill Sony introduced the Walkman! iPad took that portable music experience to the next level. I might be wrong here, but I see myself enjoying 3D Blockbusters in my hotel room when I'm on the road for work. And I guess I wont be unique..


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## trevorjharris

*3d Camcorders*

I have been using a TD10 for many years and I am very pleased with it. I am however worried that I might need to replace it or it could get stolen. It now appears that there are no 3d camcorders being produce even semi-profesional. Is there any hope that someone might produce a new 3D camera. I see blackmagic produce a 4k mini camera that is suitable for dual camera rig but it is still too bulky.


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## Barry C

trevorjharris said:


> I have been using a TD10 for many years and I am very pleased with it. I am however worried that I might need to replace it or it could get stolen. It now appears that there are no 3d camcorders being produce even semi-profesional. Is there any hope that someone might produce a new 3D camera. I see blackmagic produce a 4k mini camera that is suitable for dual camera rig but it is still too bulky.


I wish I could say the near future looks bright for new 3D camcorders but, unfortunately, the odds of that happening are probably slim and none. My guess is 10 years, at least. Hope I'm wrong. Probably your best bet would be to go on Ebay and pick up a spare or two. I've bought extra JVC-TD1s this way. Ebay is quite good about making the sellers stand behind their claims if they say something is in excellent condition and it turns out not to be.


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## 3DBob

I see Amazon has the new Japanese version for sale of the TD20--same with ebay unless you get a used US version. You have to search Sony TD20 3D Camera to find them. I don't know how usable they are in the US or other English speaking countries, though. The problem is they do not support other languages than Japanese. So be careful to make sure you are getting a version that works for you. I think the menus are in the same order so you could create a cheat sheet from the camera you own now to navigate the menus.


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## Rockerob

Im sure a few 3d rigs have been setup from existing 2d hardware


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## turls

I ended up with a 50hz / PAL (?) HDR-TD20V from Ebay. Is there any limitation on using content recorded on this camcorder on USA displays or projectors? It has been a while since I tried 3D playback on a computer setup with Nvidia 3D Vision but was never successful. I'm wondering now if the display rate has something to do with it?


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## 3DBob

Your TV or monitor would need to be able to handle 50hz. If a PC and monitor, then the PC graphics card would need to handle it as well. Otherwise you would have to post process it to 30/60hz or 24hz. But, depending your setup, that might be problematic as well.

I've read that you can use PowerDVD and set your monitor to 75hz or 100hz refresh and that actually works on US monitors. As PDVD converts to 25hz and 75hz is a multiple of 25hz. Most monitors will do this, but some at a different resolution. My monitor will do 25hz interlaced at 1920x1080. I doubt if you will have it work with a TV or projector, unless you can switch them to PAL--and some do, I think.


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## turls

3DBob said:


> Your TV or monitor would need to be able to handle 50hz. If a PC and monitor, then the PC graphics card would need to handle it as well. Otherwise you would have to post process it to 30/60hz or 24hz. But, depending your setup, that might be problematic as well.
> 
> I've read that you can use PowerDVD and set your monitor to 75hz or 100hz refresh and that actually works on US monitors. As PDVD converts to 25hz and 75hz is a multiple of 25hz. Most monitors will do this, but some at a different resolution. My monitor will do 25hz interlaced at 1920x1080. I doubt if you will have it work with a TV or projector, unless you can switch them to PAL--and some do, I think.


Thanks. I wish there was a firmware tweak to fix this. By the time I decided to try to round one of these up I couldn't be too choosy on the specs, especially considering the listing did not note this limitation. I'll play with it some more when I get a chance.


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## tomtastic

Time to dust off this old thread. I added a used TD10 to my 3D camera gear. Looks hardly used, original box all the accessories. Batteries are same as my AX100's so plenty of those, menu system is very similar. Decided to get one now that they're cheap and it's a smaller 3D camera, not like they're making them any more. No 24p or manual white balance and settings would be my only complaint but overall I'm liking it. It's about half the size of the Z10k and about a 1/3 size of the 3DA1 so if I don't feel like lugging those around and I want full HD per eye I'm bringing this one.

The little 3D1 is small but I find the SbS and lower bitrate a bit of a letdown. TD20 and TD30, yes a bit smaller but they made some compromises like closer lenses, and then the TD30 has no internal memory and made from recycled bits. And most importantly the prices on those haven't dropped yet and they might not now, these cameras are entering the collectable market.

I need to get a hot shoe adapter, not the same as my AX100's, much smaller. Also the lanc control uses same cable that I have, part of it anyway, but the zoom controller I have doesn't work with it. 

Watched an old review on the TD10, they called it a large camera for a Handycam, well not really for 3D, it has two lenses after all but I guess they tried to appeal to them with the TD20 and 30 models. It's about 2 lbs. size and weight about half the Z10k so I can see using this one in places where I'm not going to bring my larger cameras.


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## relaxman

I had a TD10, now TD30.
TD10 has more depth in 3-6m range, while TD30 is better for close subject, and macro (especially wit close up lens)
TD10 miss AE shift, so i always had to use manual exposure or the sky oftern burned out.
I like TD30 smaller size and use microsdxc cards anyway.
But all of these record only in interlaced format, which is bad in 2018..
For normal depth scenes i use Firefly 8S camera with 90 degree lens in 2.5k 50p mode, SBS configuration with 7cm base.
I really like what it produce.


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## tomtastic

relaxman said:


> But all of these record only in interlaced format, which is bad in 2018..
> For normal depth scenes i use Firefly 8S camera with 90 degree lens in 2.5k 50p mode, SBS configuration with 7cm base.
> I really like what it produce.


I shot quite a bit with the Z10k in 1080p30 mode which is interlaced 60i just repacked internally. I plan on outputting to 1080p30 to remove interlaced look, so far it's looked decent with z10k footage.

Broadcast is still 1080 60i or 720p60 mostly so I don't think these cameras are obsolete just yet, should be good for years to come.

the Firefly 8s is that setup with sync? I also have my 4K3D rig but it's not perfect sync so have to be careful on fast movement but yes, visually on my AX100 rig 4K with 1" sensors really outdoes even my best 3D camera the 3DA1. Still, I think HD 3D looks pretty decent. I haven't seen a VR 3D camera yet that can get as good framing as the best 3D camcorders that were released. They're better for VR goggles with the wide FOV but it's not really for me. I'd rather have 3D. 

I was checking out the Weeview SID 3D camera which is about 2X HD 1440x1440/eye and they have a 4K version releasing this summer. The video I viewed on YT looked pretty good, better than the little Panasonic 3D1, however I viewed one video of someone walking around and that's where it really fell apart. Trees started bending and moving about, the 160 degree FOV was just awful. Basically you have to just hold it in one direction and not move it around. So I think I'm just going to stick with 3D cameras and forget about Kickstarter and all these VR 180/360 cameras. Until they release a decent normal view 3D camera, I'm not interested.


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## 3DBob

I have the Panny 3D1 compact camera and the TD10. I find myself using the 3D1 more just because it's quick and easy and can give me stills as well. Though the TD10 is better with inside video shots. That said, I always found the 3D1 to be lacking in clarity when watching on my projector in 3D. Then I got an LG passive 60" 4k 3D TV, and wow, my whole experience changed for both stills and video. Now I really like the 3D1 again. My point is that the display used can sometimes make a big difference in how these cameras all perform.


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## relaxman

With Firefly very good sync is possible with external power on.
https://s13.postimg.org/if7s69t0n/sync.jpg

With latest hacked firmware it can do clear 1080/100p (without pixel binning) at 100mbps.
My dream comed true! 
I also can mount this setup to my Smooth Q 3 axis gimbal.


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## tomtastic

relaxman said:


> With Firefly very good sync is possible with external power on.
> https://s13.postimg.org/if7s69t0n/sync.jpg
> 
> With latest hacked firmware it can do clear 1080/100p (without pixel binning) at 100mbps.
> My dream comed true!
> I also can mount this setup to my Smooth Q 3 axis gimbal.


Try ceiling fan on high speed, it will show even the slightest miss-sync, use anaglyph output and you can see where it's off. I tried external power with one battery and switch on my AX100's but doesn't work. Lights don't always come on at same time and even if they do it's not any better sync. So internally the AX100's are just different. Would have to hack the internal components, I gather but I'm going to give up on that and just use it for less motion scenes and use the 3D cameras for that stuff. 

Faster the frames/second the less miss-sync possible. With 120p you would only have 4mS max mis-sync possible or better. With 30p it's 16mS or better. I've gotten really good sync but it's random as the cameras are turned on unfortunately.

The 3D1 Bob, it's still the smallest true 3D camera but you need either active 1080p screen or a 4K LG to see its full resolution since it's SbS. I was impressed with the Weeview videos I viewed on YT because it's twice the resolution as the 3D1 and it even looks twice as good on screen, however walking around or moving the camera and the 160 degree field of view is horrendous, have to view with VR goggles. The 3D1 doesn't handle daylight very good either, always has a washed look to it.


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## relaxman

It's always so good. I'm satisfied. Much better than random sync. And it's 50/60p.


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## tomtastic

Oh, forgot to post one other thing on the TD10 I noticed. I thought I had heard zoom noise on one of your guys vids with the TD10 and I do hear it on the camera now that I have it. I suppose the internal mic pics it up, will probably use a small external mic. Did you guys notice it much?


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## Don Landis

tom- As you may recall I got started in 3D seriously with a TD10 and soon bought a second one for wide IA 3D. Using two on a bench you can put them in 1080 24P mode and then add the controller, if you can find one. The controller allows the two to actually sync and the zoom control is very accurate. 

The camera 5.0 mics are pretty good but using the sound from the camera along with one of the new digital recording mics, like the Zoom H2n can really boost your surround sound quality. 


Bob- I still find that little 3D1 great to carry with me all the time when traveling for 3D shots. While I can shoot now with the Sony Xperia XZ Premium in 4K with image stabilizer and even 960 frames per second slomo and it carries like a smart phone, if I need 3D the 3D1 is good enough for amateur work. 

I continue to carry one of my TD10's when I need something between the Z10k and the 3D1. However, I haven't shot wide IA with them in years. Last summer I shot some wide IA of the Daws glacier in Alaska from the ship using my twin NEX3N's With them I can shoot 3D with 1080 60p. If I need to zoom in I have lenses to do that but mostly shoot with 16mm or 12mm fixed lenses. 


As you all know I am fascinated by 360VR in 3D. It keeps getting better and now with the newest software from Facebook Spaces and using SGO Mistika stitching we can achieve near UHD quality on some of the goggles out there now with the Vuze Camera. Most of the true 3D 360VR cameras that record in 8K are not only expensive still but very bulky. 

Tom- enjoy the TD10. It is a great backup when you need to get production quality video for 1080i30. I have some tips on how to add filters if you need to.


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## tomtastic

Don Landis said:


> Tom- enjoy the TD10. It is a great backup when you need to get production quality video for 1080i30. I have some tips on how to add filters if you need to.


I recall you had one large filter on the front. Did you just glue that on? I can't remember where you posted that but I recall seeing the pictures.

I did some shooting with it last week around the house and backyard. I think the image stabilization is really good on it. As good as the Z10k or a little better since it's smaller. It does crop in slightly when used but not much. I have a feeling I'll be using it quite a bit for when I don't want to lug around 4lb plus 3D gear but still want full HD 3D.

Image quality, low light seems to be about the same as Z10k, overall PQ I can't really compare yet. Just not enough color outside right now, too gloomy. 3D effect is slightly less than Z10k because of closer lenses, I don't think I'll bother with TD20 or 30 given they're priced higher still and even closer lenses. I compared specs on the TD10 to TD30 and the 30 is about .5" less width height and length all around so it is notably smaller but lenses have no space between them so less overall disparity will shorten the 3D range. Nice thing about the TD10 is the files are same as what Z10k uses so easy workflow there.

I've been going back and watching footage from my Z10K and 3DA1 on my 65" OLED I picked up recently. Good grief! There's times when it actually looks like it was filmed in 4K. I have this older 49" 4K screen, it's just LED and everything looks pretty good on there but the OLED is just a completely different level. Of course 4K sourced material is best but it makes everything look a step up from actual resolution. SD looks HD, HD looks 4K and 4K is just superb.


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## relaxman

I have a 62->67mm and a 67->72mm step up ring on my TD30, so i can use any 72 mm filter 
Closeups, polarizer, UV..


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## tomtastic

I tried 82mm first, too big. Pulled a 62mm off my AX100 and it's too small. Catches some of the frame of the filter. Pulled a 67mm off my Nikon P900 and that seems to be perfect size, doesn't catch anything on sides thru the lens. I'll order another 67mm kit, is that the size you used Don?


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## Don Landis

Tom- I have a couple pics I can put here that show how I mounted the filter ring to the camera. I used industrial strength "krazy Glue" to cement the thread ring to the camera. The right size filter is a 77mm that fits properly. The open back of the thread ring is covered with some thin black vinyl plastic sheet that I used black rubber cement to hold it in place. This was necessary to prevent light reflections on the back side of the filter. 

Note- because one filter is for both camera lenses, the precise adjustment for a polar filter is not possible but for most of my work it is good enough for glare from my car's windshield where I use the TD-10 to shoot road video in 3D.


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## relaxman

100fps 4x slowdown 3D test recordings with FF-8S cams


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## 3DBob

Nice--really enjoyed it.


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## tomtastic

Overall, it's pretty good sync, but I do see some miss-sync @ 00:26-00:30, bird wings aren't aligned. It shows as a blur. When I paused it, left eye the wings are in one position, right eye they are in another, fast movement here is showing mis sync. Rest of it looks in time, couldn't see any mis-sync, was there something different on that one scene?


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## relaxman

no, just very fast movement, where 100fps is still slow 
i had to repeat such scenes 2-3 times, and select the best sync
but that bird didnt want to repeat the action..

So i really can't upload 3d videos in OU format to youtube? Why they always change something?


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## tomtastic

relaxman said:


> no, just very fast movement, where 100fps is still slow
> i had to repeat such scenes 2-3 times, and select the best sync
> but that bird didnt want to repeat the action..
> 
> So i really can't upload 3d videos in OU format to youtube? Why they always change something?


Oh, I thought you said it was in sync, isn't this just random sync?


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## tomtastic

So I ended up getting a second TD10, it was listed for 400 on eBay and I wasn't going to buy it and then it dropped to 300.00 so went ahead and bought it. I'll keep it is a back up.

Interesting, it must be a early prototype or pre release model. Japanese writing on bottom of camera, no serial number, just 120 stamped there, no following digits like on my first TD10. Also, it came in a plain white box which is the same as the retail box but no writing or pictures or logos, had all the accessories TD10 written on the side. It does have english language so not the Japan models without English language. Basically the same as final models but there is one difference I've seen so far. There is no convergence reset on right side of screen. Pretty much have to go thru the auto 3D adjust if you want to get it back to default or try to get it close enough with the manual dial but it's tricky to do that always. I really only change this setting for macro but it's pretty hard to get it set back to normal without any disparity indicators. I think I will not change it on this one, too much work to get it back. I would say the convergence reset was added later in software. Don't see any software update on these in menu. The AX100's I had to update to 3.0 software. 

Bonus: So there was a few clips on these cameras that haven't been deleted, always interesting buying used cameras and seeing what previous owners haven't deleted. The first TD10 I got last week had about 48gb on the internal storage. Both of these cameras came from Florida. Neither may have been used much. That one was mostly some vacation shots at Disney Hollywood Studios. Dated from May 2011, must be when camera was released, then up to July of that year and nothing else. The previous owner was elderly, may not be around any longer, I guess I'll store the data, hate deleting someone's memories, might be the only recording of it, I suspect a lot of people who bought these have no idea how to transfer data off them.

The prototype TD10 must have been handed out to a Sony employee or exec. a brief shot around the Sony office floor and then what looks like a CES-type event, with some dancing girls, possibly still in Japan. Nothing else recorded only about a minute's worth in total and that dated from April 2011 so likely before final release in May.

I guess there's no way to check hours on with these so can't really be sure how much they were used. This pre release TD10 froze up once and the screen glitched out. Had to pull the battery. After that it was fine and hasn't repeated that, happened when I hit record, but it hasn't done that since only once.


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## relaxman

In this case i didn't use sync.
Just tested the new 100p quality, which is very good for a $100 cam!


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## tomtastic

So is there a sync cable between the two cameras?


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## relaxman

possible, but not tested with 100p mode yet


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## tomtastic

I saw there was a sync bac for Hero 4 and Hero 6 cameras, 269.00. Supposed to be frame synced.

https://www.timecodesystems.com/syncbac-pro/


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## relaxman

I doubt it can synronize sensor readout.
For hero 4 it's possible:


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## tomtastic

Not sure. From their website for Hero 4: _Simply clip our SyncBac PRO for GoPro HERO4 Black and Silver cameras to the back of the GoPro. This enables the camera to generate frame-accurate timecode, producing a timecoded MP4 file at source and creating the capability to wirelessly timecode sync multiple GoPros, and GoPros with pro cameras and pro audio devices over Timecode Systems’ long-range BLINK RF network._


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## relaxman

i dont read pixel perfect sensor readout sync


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## tomtastic

tomtastic said:


> So I ended up getting a second TD10, it was listed for 400 on eBay and I wasn't going to buy it and then it dropped to 300.00 so went ahead and bought it. I'll keep it is a back up.
> 
> Interesting, it must be a early prototype or pre release model. Japanese writing on bottom of camera, no serial number, just 120 stamped there, no following digits like on my first TD10. Also, it came in a plain white box which is the same as the retail box but no writing or pictures or logos, had all the accessories TD10 written on the side. It does have english language so not the Japan models without English language. Basically the same as final models but there is one difference I've seen so far. There is no convergence reset on right side of screen. Pretty much have to go thru the auto 3D adjust if you want to get it back to default or try to get it close enough with the manual dial but it's tricky to do that always. I really only change this setting for macro but it's pretty hard to get it set back to normal without any disparity indicators. I think I will not change it on this one, too much work to get it back. I would say the convergence reset was added later in software. Don't see any software update on these in menu. The AX100's I had to update to 3.0 software.
> 
> Bonus: So there was a few clips on these cameras that haven't been deleted, always interesting buying used cameras and seeing what previous owners haven't deleted. The first TD10 I got last week had about 48gb on the internal storage. Both of these cameras came from Florida. Neither may have been used much. That one was mostly some vacation shots at Disney Hollywood Studios. Dated from May 2011, must be when camera was released, then up to July of that year and nothing else. The previous owner was elderly, may not be around any longer, I guess I'll store the data, hate deleting someone's memories, might be the only recording of it, I suspect a lot of people who bought these have no idea how to transfer data off them.
> 
> The prototype TD10 must have been handed out to a Sony employee or exec. a brief shot around the Sony office floor and then what looks like a CES-type event, with some dancing girls, possibly still in Japan. Nothing else recorded only about a minute's worth in total and that dated from April 2011 so likely before final release in May.
> 
> I guess there's no way to check hours on with these so can't really be sure how much they were used. This pre release TD10 froze up once and the screen glitched out. Had to pull the battery. After that it was fine and hasn't repeated that, happened when I hit record, but it hasn't done that since only once.


So I went back and read a few posts from early in this thread. The TD10 was announced in January 2011. The cameras come with the sample Sony 3D film dated January 2011 first on the camera. The recording on the pre release TD10 I just received had recordings from April 14, 2011 from an office floor at the Sony Headquarters in japan (I think). So the TD10 release was originally delayed til late April, some posts here receiving them April 28th, most in mid May after _another_ delay in shipping. So somehow this unit made it to US even though it's not a retail model.

The TD10 is 7 years old now.


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## tomtastic

Filter mod performed on TD10, same as Panasonic Z10k but I used 77mm. I thought I might be able to go smaller but I don't think so. With the lens hood on it's picking up a bit of the sides, I can probably trim them down a little and fix that. Kit also came with a rubber lens hood too that could be molded to fit as well.

I located lens a little high off center so it doesn't block the mic's as much (see pic 4) and can be set down on table without removing the filter. But since it's off-center, that's why it's hitting the sides of lens hood. I'll take a little off the sides and that should do the trick. Got this idea from Don of course but I was a little hesitant to glue the filter ring onto the camera. There's a bit of movement if you grab the lens and pull it hard but it won't fall off or move on it's own so it should be pretty well stuck in place and it can be removed later if needed.

So I also have ND's, CPL and FLD with the kit that can be attached. 

Another low cost mod, cost of filter kit: 23.00, sticky back velcro: 17.00 already had enough to finish most of this one but I had to buy more.


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## Don Landis

Tom, after you have the frustration of the velcro coming loose, and decide to keep the threaded ring, just use crazy glue. If you must remove it for some reason Crazy Glue or any cyano acrylate glue can easily be softened with nail polish remover (acetone). Been there done that on other systems I experiment with. Enjoy!


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## tomtastic

As long as the glue holds up (back part of velcro), I don't think the velcro will come loose. I literally have to hold the camera firm and rip the lens off very slowly and so far the glue has held to the camera. I actually worry about breaking the glass when pulling it off, so that could be a problem. But I don't plan on taking it off again unless it somehow gets dirty in there, but I think I have it sealed up pretty tight. And if it does break, it's just a cheap UV filter.


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## Don Landis

The problem isn't the hook and loop coming lose as the longer it stays the more secure it will lock up. The problem is with the adhesive on the velcro. I discovered it gets sticky and weak in the heat especially with not much surface area. A couple places I need to use it because I have to stick things up temporarily, I've had to coat the velcro back with shoe goo rubber cement which doesn't get weak in the heat. 

Note, the only thing I glued to the camera is a threaded ring. No glass at all over the lenses when all filters are removed. It looked to me like you velcroed the whole filter to the camera. I removed the glass of the 77mm 1A filter to get the ring.


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## tomtastic

Odd, I've used sticky back in a car once to repair something and it never gave me any trouble or came loose and that was definitely in the heat, I'll see how it holds up over time on the camera. I tried pulling the velcro loose from camera and it appears to be a pretty good bond, it's some kind of glue, very good stuff.

Yes, I masked off the unused part of filter with velcro same as the Z10k. On TD10 it's sticks at top and bottom and then I have a long wrap that goes 3/4" around it to help hold it in place and also keep dust, dirt, sun out of the filter area. But having the glass on was intentional that way it also provides UV protection without the other filters on.


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## Don Landis

I have 1a filter for the TD-10's but used it so rarely as nearly all my TD-10 shooting is daytime and involves water or through the windshield. CPL is on the camera all the time. I think the last time I took it off was when exploring a cave in Barbados. That was 2 years ago. 

Recently tried to use the stick on velcro on my GoPro to mount a USB C to stereo audio jack adapter that is about as big as the camera. But when I removed the adapter it pulled the Velcro right off the camera. Currently just holding the adapter in place with just the USB-C plug. It's not very heavy so I will probably just go with that for now.


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