# BLOG #2: Sony G70 and Sharp XV-Z11000 Comparison



## Guy Kuo

At 2 PM Pacific (GST + 8 hours) today, Sunday, February 15, 2004 Steve Smith will host a comparison of a Sony G70 and the Sharp XV-Z110000 projectors. This is the second CRT and DLP comparison event which we will attempt to report in BLOG fashion. Join us and enjoy as we muddle through. This forum thread will hold the event commentary. Last time the digital forum was the venue.


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## Guy Kuo

With any luck we'll won't have any technical glitches with the wi-fi network. I'm bringing four laptops so we'll have plent of access for those present. It all depends on how busy we are during the event. Not everyone is as willing to write their thoughts as we go along. Please bear with us. We don't get paid for this, but ARE planning to have some fun while we compare.


Now to pack up everything and go pick up the most important supplies for the event - Krispee Kreme donuts.


Hopefully see you all on line in a few.


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## Chuchuf

Have fun guys, that really what it's all about.


Terry


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## Drew Packard

Hi Guys,


Curt just left my house for the shootout.....Can't wait to see how Steve's G70 fare's.......

I recently had a G70 that I put 3 new factory tubes in, so I know what THAT looks like!

Have fun!


Drew


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## fulabeer

How long until the start in actual hours?

The UK is normally about 5 hours ahead, but all this GST time has thrown me!


In the mean time... 


I don't believe there can be any winners in this comparison.


Until this latest generation of HD2+ DLP, CRT of any description (7" onwards) would probably win outright.

This was mainly due to the fact that we could tell when we were looking at a digital projector.


I could spot the artificial colours and lack of subtle variations on hues.

All the attention seems to be on Ansi contrast, but i see the improvement in these areas(colour/subtleties) as the biggest improvement.


As it stands now, is as i said above "no winners". I don't mean it like there can be any harm that comes from this comparison. Rather that each projector will shine in different areas. So no "outright" winner!


I stopped posting in the "OTHER" thread due to some "unreasonable" arguments.

But one thing about that thread, is the large amount of people suggesting ways to improve "Goliath" sorry CRT for tonights show. Anybody else notice zero posts about how to improve "David" sorry the "Sharp" for tonights show? 

There is something in that point alone!


The Atlanta guys have posted invites for somebody to bring a 12K for a shootout.

This is great, that they actually feel it wouldn't be wasting their time.

This time last year, the very thought of a similar comparison would have been laughable!


My personal view is the Sharp11K/12K and the Marantz S3 are very very good indeed.

And they are a true alternative to a good 8" CRT.

However i still don't think they are better than a 8"+, just an alternative.


It has been mentioned that it would be interesting to hear the views from a 12K owner after they have lived with it for a while.


I bought my Marantz S3 HD2+ DLP three months ago (19-11-03).

I still own a Barco808s CRT.

I was going to go with a Barco1209s.


Well i'm still being amazed day in day out with the S3.

It is getting almost daily use, and instead of me noticing more artifacts i'm actually getting less!

This is down to getting used to the settings, and beginning to use "DVI".

Film grain is a big problem now, as the S3 uses a very sharp lens.

In fact i would say the leap in sharpness from the 808s is like i have already gone to HD!

The extra detail in things like textures is worth the loss of "fade to black".

As already mentioned, the blacks are better than the 808s as long as there is some light in a scene, and shadow detail is great.

When there is a lot of light in a scene, the S3 is streets ahead with stunning /black/shadow detail.


But i would have gotten most of the same kind of leap in performance if i had gone for a 1209s.

As for a Cine9/G90 well lets be sensible, there isn't a digital out yet to reach for that crown!

If i won the lottery, yep a Cine9/G90 would still be my first choice(quad-stacked of course!- ie double side stacked...ART you know you want too!)

So for those CRT owners that for some strange reason are getting rattled, lighten up. This advancement in DLP isn't going to stop you buying CRT. It just gives us that wanted a good image without the hassle at least a decent choice!


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## Stephan

Interesting 


Would it be possible to feed the Sharp with a [email protected] or 72Hz Signal?


I downloaded the manual of the 12k and while it lists several refresh rates (including 72Hz) at different resulutions, DTV with 720p is only listed at 60Hz and 50Hz. The important thing is the slowdown or speedup of the colorwheel.


If you have the possibility to try it, it would be nice, as this would be a dealbreaker for me if it doesn't work.


I'll also try to call Sharp tomorrow and see what they have to say about it.


If 48Hz or 72Hz will indeed work with the unit, I'll just order one from japan and put it up against my Barco 1209 and use it as a second projector. Otherwise, I'll have to try to get my hands onto a unit, that I can use over a weekend for comparison.


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## Paul Butler

Quote:

_Originally posted by fulabeer_
*How long until the start in actual hours?

The UK is normally about 5 hours ahead, but all this GST time has thrown me!
*
Fulabeer,

PST is 8 hours behind UK time.

Paul


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## fulabeer

I suspect that the G70 might just win. Nothing to do with it's ability though, just the mind power of all those CRTers!

That how planes take off, it's those passengers onboard urging it off the ground!


Stephen, i've tried [email protected] on the S3 and it works fine, which means there should be zero tearing from framerate conversion.

I was expecting some sort of flickering, but the image remains solid.


Paul, so that means about 10pm then?...thanks!


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## Stephan

Quote:

Stephen, i've tried [email protected] on the S3 and it works fine, which means there should be zero tearing from framerate conversion.

I was expecting some sort of flickering, but the image remains solid.
I know the S3 can do 48Hz, it actually slows down the color wheel, while 72Hz is converted back to 60Hz.


48Hz is important to me for one reason, remove NTSC motion artifacts, that are already in the source. Drop the 3:2 to 2:2 or pull it to 3:3 for 72Hz. Either will be fine for me as long as it's a full multiple of the original 24fps from film.


It's not that I'm not happy with CRT, but I want to do something that can't be done by a CRT. I'd like to have a 2.35:1 constant height screen, somewhere between 70" and 80" (between 164.5" and 188" wide @2.35:1). It should be perforated so I can place the speakers behind the screen and should have perforated side masking.


The S3 would perfectly work for me, as it does 48Hz. But since all DLPs only do 720p and can't display de-interlaced material from 1080i sources (at least not without loss of resolution), it's a big no-no for it's price.


The Sharp is really cheap in japan and it wouldn't hurt me if I order one and then end up using it as a second or party projector.

The S3 would cost me an additional â‚¬2500,- and I consider that too expensive for a 720p projector, that I'll sell anyway once 1080p is out.


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## Guy Kuo

Network is now up. Curt Palme was already here and Darin is just now arriving.


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## Guy Kuo

Darin, "I'm driving down the road was thinking I brought a lot of stuff, but then I realized I left the main part of my PC."


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## WanMan

Maybe a low-light capable video camera feeding into a webcam-ish PC setup for a live video feed of the action!?!


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## Guy Kuo

ChrisWiggles is now here.


We're just looking at the Nascar feed as stuff is being brought in.


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## WanMan

Is it me or am I seeing a slight convergence issue on the lower-left hand corner of Steve's Sony? I also thought I observed a rainbow or two.




Ok, this will get me ignored. But, before that happens, can someone tell me if this is going to be a case in which the screen is getting shared in a manner in which one projected image is conducted at a time, or will it be split, like I suggested last week?


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## Guy Kuo

Steve's screen is 96 inch wide Stewart 1.5 gain. We're about to watch Coral Reef Adventure WMV HD on the G70.


As the title screens play, I can see some light scatter in the black backgrounds, but as usual the overall picture on his machine looks quite richly colored.


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## Curt Palme

So here we are, Krispy Kreme donuts in hand (thanks Guy!)


You know, every time I go to someone's HT system that is well set up., I realize how inadequate mine is.


I have to go publicly on record here that Steve's G 70 set up has forever changed my mind about the color rendition of the G 70 I'll never bash it again!


Will I pull uot my XG no, but this G 70 driven by a 3 Ghz HTPC kicks some serious butt!


NOte that I'll have a bunch of typos, I'm not good at typing in the dark.


Curt


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## WanMan

Curt, typing 'in the dark and with sticky fingers' ...


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## Guy Kuo

The gradients on blue in the underwater scenes doesn't appear to have any banding on the G70. We'll pay attention for that on the Sharp when we switch over.


There is a flickering in some scenes which we don't know is in the source or the system.


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## Curt Palme

So since I'm constantly buried in bad modules and burnt tubes, I'm not up at all on the latest software and hardware out there. This is the first time I've seen the WMD DVD, and OK, those of you familiat with cutting edge DVD's win, you CAN do better than a high end scaler and a regular DVD player.



I REALLY need to get out more, or at least spend a bit of time in other forums to keep current.


I feel so inadequate and like such a newbie here..


Curt


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## madclammer

This should be interesting. Bless you curt for attending !


starting to chant: CRT CRT CRT CRT


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## Curt Palme

Well, I've been here an hour and I have to say, the DLP has perfect blacks. Darin is still setting it up..


Curt


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## QQQ

Could someone post an explanation of exactly how everything is connected and being routed to each projector, what the associated equipment is etc.


Thank you everyone for your efforts. This is fun.


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## JimmyR

Wondering if Alan can tell how many of us a locked on this thread ?


In any case, better than Janet Jackson's ratings I'll bet.


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## Curt Palme

Funny, we just watched about 20 minutes of Coral Reef, which his a pretty dark underwater movie, and after the credits which ran on a black background, the desktop was pure white.


Ouch!


Complaint: the G 70 is too bright!


You might laugh, but we all squinted as the all white screen came up..


Curt


Curt


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## Guy Kuo

Actually, he's setting it up in the dark.


End of Chapter 5 of Boys and Girls is now playing via DVD. We're examing fleshtones and they look quite realistic on the G70. I do note some washout in the bright scenes, but once APL drops the scenes clean up considerably.


I'm thinking the distributor of this film is seeing an inexplicable bump is sales of this disc. Darin tried to get it and it was out of stock.


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## ChrisWiggles

its actually not super bright, its perfectly set. Ive seen the qualia sxrd, and THAT thing is bright. this looks very nice though, and very 3d so far.


The spill even with an LC pj is significant, moreso than I recall seeing in the past.


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## Curt Palme

I think Guy is posting as to the equipment list. The room itself is well laid out, black carpeting on the floor and ceilingfrom the screen to about 4' forward. Does that ever eliminate ceilng reflections..


Steve's projector is recessed into the ceiling, with only th elenses sticking out. Cooling is circulatingthru ducting and a fan back into the room.


Most impressive is Darin's double Rubbermaid container stack to position the Sharp above the couch.


Curt


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## mrmike

So the no-power-cord tweak helps with DLP black levels. Interesting.


-MM

"None more black"


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## Guy Kuo

I'll leave it to Steve and Darin to explain the connections and hardware. The Sharp is now being connected to Steve's HTPC via DVI-D.


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## Curt Palme

We've all agreed that Darin bringing a DLP into the mix makes this CRT shootout unfair (Darin's comment)


Curt


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## Curt Palme

OK, since we're all passing the buck, here's the equipment list:


HTPC with 3 GHz P4, Radeon 9800 PRo card, 1280 X 720 at 85 Hz to the G 70


DVI to the Sharp, 16' cable to the Sharp.


The Sharp has just been fired up...


Curt


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## Curt Palme

Set up time of the Sharp is now going to 1 hr, and still no pix. Set up time of Steve's g 70 in the room, 0 minutes..


Curt


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## HoustonHoyaFan

Guys

any initial comments about any subjective differences between last weeks XG and the Sony G70 on Chapter 5 of Boys and Girls?


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## Curt Palme

Oh, Steve is using Powerstrip..


Curt


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## Chuchuf

Curt 85Hz refresh??


Terry


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## Curt Palme

Yes, 85 Hz.


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## Guy Kuo

It's pretty treacherous to compare the G70 and NEC from memory. I think the NEC has less scatter and better performance during the brighter scenes, but I would want us to get ANSI contrast measurements to objectively compare that parameter. By eye, the colors look similar. We should get xy coordinate of the G70 primaries.


Still working on getting the DVI timings to work with the Sharp.


Hey! The Digital is sure taking a long time to set up.


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## WanMan

If this Radeon card a Mike Parker modified card?


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## Chuchuf

Guy,


I would be also very interested in your comments when comparing the 3000 to the HTPC.


Steve, do you have the MP modded ATI??


Curt, yea the colors on the G70 can be very nice. When you measure them you'll find that they are pretty close to the XG's>


Terry


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## Curt Palme

No, this is a stock Radeon card.


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## ChrisWiggles

Computers suck. :|


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## ChrisWiggles

We're sending 60hz to the crt, 85 to the sharp, having trouble flipping them.


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## madclammer

Dont you mean windows sucks


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## ChrisWiggles

Yes. Especially since im typing this on a mac .


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## Curt Palme

Bang on Robert!

But at least with analog you get a visual indication of what's going on.


With digital, it's there for one second, gone the next.


The room is full of geekspeak right now "refresh...Powerstrip...60 Hz..autosync...blah..blah"


And I mean that in the nicest of ways..


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## Curt Palme

Hey, and I just hit 7K posts!..


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## Guy Kuo

Thus far, the G70 is handily beating out the Sharp. We can't even see a picture on the Sharp!


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## madclammer

an omen of sorts perhaps.... "Hey, and I just hit 7K posts!"


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## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by fulabeer_
*How long until the start in actual hours?

The UK is normally about 5 hours ahead, but all this GST time has thrown me!


i'm actually getting less!

This is down to getting used to the settings, and beginning to use "DVI".

Film grain is a big problem now, as the S3 uses a very sharp lens.

In fact i would say the leap in sharpness from the 808s is like i have already gone to HD!

The extra detail in things like textures is worth the loss of "fade to black".

stop you buying CRT. It just gives us that wanted a good image without the hassle at least a decent choice! *
Isnt the "sharpness" of a digital image caused by the jagged edges though? Isnt that a perceived sharpness?


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## SkyLite

Try and focus, Curt.


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## ChrisWiggles

I cant read japanese, but the menu items are the most interesting things going on right now...


That and windows desktop.


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## WanMan

Did Darin bring his Momitsu just in case there is a snag in using the HTPC's DVI-D?


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## ChrisWiggles

I will say that even with menus only, the SDE is worse than I hed expected based on past threads...


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## Chuchuf

Are you creating a new custom rez in PS?? Or just trying to change the refresh rate of the one that was used on the G70??


T


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## ChrisWiggles

We have picture!


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## WanMan

Of the menu or something else?


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## Guy Kuo

They 've tried entering a custom res. The problem is that the analog feed to the G70 can be adjusted to the correct refresh rate, but the DVI feed to the Sharp keeps reverting to 85 Hz midway through Windows Boot. Steve just pulled the analog cable and this has allowed us to finally get a picture on the DLP.


"This is turning interesting." says Curt.


Convergence looks good.


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## ChrisWiggles

The desktop color looks different...


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## Guy Kuo

Holy smokes the Windows desktop looks sharp. Steve's G70 shows it well but you have to concede the focus and geometry to the Sharp. 1280 x 720 pixel perfect says Darin.


We're putting on Coral Reef for the Sharp


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## Curt Palme

OK, we got Windows up finally.


NO question that the icons are sharper on the Sharp.


We're running 1280 X 720 here as well, 60 Hz though.


Apparently that is what was holding up the Sharp from projecting, it would not take the 85 Hz.


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## WanMan

Convergence looks good? On the 11000? If I see one rainbow convergence is off, way off. I get the joke, though.


Curt/Steve, make sure Windows' has the 'Hide modes that this monitor cannot display' unchecked.


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## ChrisWiggles

Yes, focus is much better, icons are sharper, especially in the corners.


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## Guy Kuo

Steve refuses to show us the Windows clock in the lower right hand corner now that the DLP is on.


Wow! It's bright and it's sharp, but you can see pixels say some of the obsevers. I can't at about 1.4 widths. They guys are now standing three feet from the screen to examine the pixels.


Darin and Steve are slightly defocusing the DLP. We have Steve running the focus ring. Defocused it is still much sharper than the CRT.


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## Curt Palme

You can see pixels... just a bit at 10' or so. Darin says that he would defocus the DLP just a bit..


Curt


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## Curt Palme

You can see pixels... just a bit at 10' or so. Darin says that he would defocus the DLP just a bit..


Curt


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## Guy Kuo

Steve accusedly pointing at someone in the room, "Who comes to a home theater meet wearing a light colored shirt?"


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## stefuel

WOW, this is soooo exciting. Kinda like watching maple syrup flow down the tree at, oh say ZERO.


Chip


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## ChrisWiggles

weve defocused it now, screen door is less visible from myu position


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## ChrisWiggles

rainbow on the intro, blacks not pitch black, but very good


theyre noticing the text jaggies, not so on the crt, this a function of the sharpness of the digital


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## Kysersose

How close are you guys sitting to the screen?


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## JeffY

sitting?


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## Chuchuf

Defocusing!!!! yea that's he trick (as us CRT owners cringe at the thought.....lol)

We all know the desk top will be super sharp. It is on a G90 as well.


Terry


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## ChrisWiggles

brightness uniformity across the screen looks better than the crt.


weve noticed flicker on the source DVD on both the dlp and the crt on coral reef wm9


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## Kysersose

Standing..


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## Tryg

Art likes to sit at .9 screen widths. Would DLP work?


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## ChrisWiggles

weve just ripped the ability to get good gradiations in color guy says "insufficient bit depth"


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## Chuchuf

Curt,

While I have your attention. I have been looking at your avitar and just can't make it out (got to get a better bigger monitor). What is it??


Terry


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## ChrisWiggles

I think the 3d effect is less pronounced than the g70


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## Wireless

Terry,


Think Superbowl.


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## Chuchuf

Oh to funny!!!


Hi John, I see the gang is all here.


Terry


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## WanMan

Terry, it looks like one of the intro 1/10 second patterns.


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## ChrisWiggles

the shimmer in the dvd mixed with gradiance problems is really bad. It should be less noticable without the shimmer. this dvd is a pretty bad torture test for this


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## Curt Palme

OK, the HD show has started (Coral Reef.


Pixellatin is a bit noticeable, the blacks are not perfect as expected on the Sharp.


OK, my first impressions:


1) This is the best DLP I have ever seen. This absolutely blows away the Runco $30K unit I saw about 2 weeks ago.


2) I see some red color fringing around the bottom of the pix. Datrin says that this is due to the lens on the Sharp.


3) The banding and/or solarizaion is noticeable, esp. on the blue. Annoying to those that notice it, I'll bet most casual viewers will not see it unless it's pointed out. Then again, a lot of casual viewers will not see CRT burnunless it's pointed out..


Curt


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## Chuchuf

As Steve sits in his corner, we give him some water, clran the blood off his face and send him back in.


Terry


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## Guy Kuo

"This is a pain to rewind. Look what happens here when I do it." - Steve


"That's how I missed Janet Jackson's breast." - unnamed.


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## Tryg

Quote:

_Originally posted by Curt Palme_
*

1) This is the best DLP I have ever seen. This absolutely blows away the Runco $30K unit I saw about 2 weeks ago.
*
I concur the 11k/12k and S3 beat every 1 chip runco I've seen


even the $30k unit in the ridiculously oversized box


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## Curt Palme

There are some jaggies on some of the straight edges on the Sharp. We can't instantaneously switch to the Sony G 70, but we'll come back to that same scene to see if the CRT does it too.


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## ChrisWiggles

we rewound because were getting white clipping, may be in the source, detail not revealed when we turned down white on the dlp. This may be on the dvd, or computer versus video contrast wierdness


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## Curt Palme

The HT newbie asks what he should be seeing when Darin points out the not perfect blacks of the DLP..


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## Guy Kuo

Darin is cueing up a recording on tape which will be fed via component into the Sharp.


This recording shows much much less banding problems in gradients. I actually have trouble seeing them.


Darin brings up a good point. The previous feed may be undergoing a video the pc level conversion. That would create some non-monotonicity and exacerbate banding which would otherwise not be visible.


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## ChrisWiggles

from dvhs the gradiation problem was almost unnoticable. Likely the problem on wm9 coral reef was more wm9 than the dlp, which is good for the dlp, since this was really quite bad on wm9 coral reef. likely "video expansion to PC"


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## WanMan

Has anyone performed the hand-puppet test?


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## ChrisWiggles

black detail is about the same, or perhaps slightly better on the dlp, in terms of light spill in the crt


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## ChrisWiggles

im seeing a little rainbow.


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## Kysersose

I see a little rainbow on my CRT RPTV. 

Does it bother you? Doesn't bother me.


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## ChrisWiggles

blacklevel was too high, we're now fiddling with grayscale, curt pointed out that it was yellow


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## Curt Palme

The gloves are off. As good as the videos look, the gray scale is off to my eyes with Guy's AVIAPro disc.


Guy is getting out the colorimeter..


Curt


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## ChrisWiggles

we're setting up a light meter now to measure the light output and get the grayscale right.


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## lsteere

Quote:

_Originally posted by ChrisWiggles_
*from dvhs the gradiation problem was almost unnoticable. Likely the problem on wm9 coral reef was more wm9 than the dlp, which is good for the dlp, since this was really quite bad on wm9 coral reef. likely "video expansion to PC"*
Didn't they use the same source for both the CRT and DLP? If it was the source, wouldn't there also have been banding on the CRT?


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## ChrisWiggles

guy tried to explain this. Since we were sending dvi to the dlp, this introduces problem in translating the video info into the digital realm without enough steps. This problem wouldn't be apparent going to the crt with analog. perhaps he will post later with a better explanation.


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## Tryg

Bob, I think any dithering now is acceptable with this color wheel. You have to get within a few feet to see it.


how about juddery pans?


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## scottatl

Curt, you think you are going in with an open mind?

Terry and Wanman, you got to set this up in Atlanta with that G90 you have in your shop!


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## lsteere

Quote:

_Originally posted by ChrisWiggles_
*guy tried to explain this. Since we were sending dvi to the dlp, this introduces problem in translating the video info into the digital realm without enough steps. This problem wouldn't be apparent going to the crt with analog. perhaps he will post later with a better explanation.*
I'll have to claim ignorance on this - my own of course  I thought DVI was the holy grail...digital signal from end to end with no analog conversion.


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## benareeno

In short form...is it agreed that the HT1000 isn't quite "there" yet??


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## Curt Palme

Yes, I am going in with an open mind, but I'm also having a bit of fun.


I've aslog to my conclusion formed, but won't post it until the end..


Curt


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## JimmyR

Your right, the HT1000 isn't in the house.


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## benareeno

you mean it's still a definite step below crt?


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## bdk11

Is it live or memorex! Keep the updates coming


brian


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## lsteere

Are there any neutral parties at this shootout? You know...someone who doesn't have a stake in either CRT or digital, and is seeing both FP formats for the first time.?


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## ChrisWiggles

were not comparing the ht1000, we;re using the sharp 11k


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## Kysersose

Ben,

Guy has already posted in the past that in *some* ways he prefers his HT1000 image. They (HT1000 and CRT) are really two very different images. If you think your 5700 looks good with HD you should see the HT1000. The CR of the HT1000 is well above the 5700.


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## WanMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by scottatl_
*Curt, you think you are going in with an open mind?

Terry and Wanman, you got to set this up in Atlanta with that G90 you have in your shop!*
No! Its to be a 9500LC with Mike Parker playing the evening's God. And while I know Terry and Mike will make the best out of the situation (Mike's bringing his HTPC), i fear the ability to acquire and calibrate the Sharp. Fingers are crossed, though.


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## Curt Palme

WE do have a newbie here. He finds the Sharp to be....sharper (groan), but also likes the CRT. We've been watching the DLP for over an hour now, and Guy is still adjusting the white balance, but we'll be switching back to CRT at som e point.


I'm going to have to split within the hour, but will post when get back to Vancouver tonight,


Curt


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## benareeno

Keyser, I sold my 5700 and now I'm painfully trying to figure out if I want an HT1000 or a crt....


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## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by benareeno_
*Keyser, I sold my 5700 and now I'm painfully trying to figure out if I want an HT1000 or a crt....*
Beeno - so you gave up on the CRT setup? Going back to DLP???


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## Curt Palme

Ever since the checkerboard pattern went up from the AVIA disc I see rainbows...


Curt


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## penticton102

robert, will do exactly that when i take my empties in,hehehe...........


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## Kysersose

Ben, Yes, I know that you sold it to your brother.

I was just pointing out the difference between the 5700 & the HT1000.

(And letting you know what Guy has posted about the HT1000 in the past.)


Although Guy was using S-video and a smaller screen (around 70") I believe. DVI from something like the Momitsu should be much better. IMHO


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## RobertWood

Quote:

_Originally posted by Curt Palme_
*Ever since the checkerboard pattern went up from the AVIA disc I see rainbows...


Curt*
It's not looking good, guys (digitalers that is). In fact it's looking like we're going to have a 1 - 1 series here unless the Sharp can hit a home run in the 9th. (or get the puck in the net for you Canadians)


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## WanMan

Curt, I have decided to classify DLP rainbows as a digital convergence problem. Just because one cannot discern a convergence problem doesn't mean it does not exist. Unfortunately, I can discern them and now so can you!


----------



## benareeno

I am going to have to return this crt that I bought 9PGXtra because of grey scale and geometry issue that are so far incurable...it's for this reason that I'm even considering a dlp again....but I still think a crt that isn't all screwed up like this one is definitely the way I want to go...


----------



## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by benareeno_
*I am going to have to return this crt that I bought 9PGXtra because of grey scale and geometry issue that are so far incurable...it's for this reason that I'm even considering a dlp again....but I still think a crt that isn't all screwed up like this one is definitely the way I want to go...*
Is it all screwed up or were you not experienced enough with it? No offense intended as I myself am a few days away from my first CRT setup attempt.


----------



## lsteere

Quote:

_Originally posted by Curt Palme_
*WE do have a newbie here. He finds the Sharp to be....sharper (groan), but also likes the CRT.

Curt*


After the shootout is finished, ask him which image he prefers overall...I'm just curious.


----------



## Guy Kuo

I was complaining about washout during chapter 6 of Boys and Girls so we've taken time to recalibrate gray scale on the Sharp using the CA-6X. Then we verified black and white levels prior to measuring ANSI style measurements to see what the room is doing to optical scatter.


White = 120/ Black = 0.33 = 360:1 contrast ratio.


Compared to the Darin's reading of 790:1 ANSI style using a completely black sheet as the screen to remove the room effects and the ANSI styles in my black room WITH screen in effect.


NEC XG White = 36.8 Black 0.330 = 110:1


NEC HT1000 White = 34.50 Black 0.060 = 580:1


Sharp 12000 White 813 Black 1.22 = 670:1


The room is creating quite a bit of optical scatter here so we're losing quite a bit high APL clarity.


----------



## Curt Palme

NOw that we're watching the 5th Element, I still see rainbows. Dunno what happened, but I;m seeing them occasionally ever since the checkerboard pattern was put up.


We're also noticing a bit of pixellation, very minor mind you.


----------



## benareeno

It's all screwed up...no doubt about it. For instance, setting the akb switch to test all but blanks out all 3 crt's....I don't think that's normal. But anyhow, this is for another thread.


Curt, don't forget to email me about those 6 Xtra's you got in on Friday.

|

Ben


----------



## WanMan

Guy, I thought it was Chapter 5 you observed the initial washout and recomposure of the fleshtone colors on the G70.


----------



## RobertWood

Come to think of it, Steve hasn't weighed in yet either.


----------



## Curt Palme

Darin is too busy trying to keep the Sharp converged to answer..


Seriously, he thought that the HTPC cleaned up the G 70 image quite a bit as compared to the shootout last week, with the Boys and Girls DVD.


----------



## lsteere

Please, don't get too caught up in comparing only color and washout. I hope you also spend some time compairing fine image detail....I'm still wondering why the film grain didn't show up on the Sharp during the first shootout.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

shadow puppets


----------



## Curt Palme

Note that shadow puppets are still possib;le in the blacks of the Sharp..O


----------



## lsteere

Quote:

_Originally posted by Curt Palme_
*Note that shadow puppets are still possib;le in the blacks of the Sharp..O*
Does the 11K make those look sharper too?


----------



## WanMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by lsteere_
*Does the 11K make those look sharper too? *
Of course! Compare one point source of light to three point souces of light!


----------



## Kysersose

Quote:

We're also noticing a bit of pixellation, very minor mind you.
FROM WHAT DISTANCE? (Sorry for the caps)


Someone please answer this. The comment above means nothing unless the distance is known.


Thanks,


----------



## Curt Palme

12' on an 8' wide screen.


----------



## Kysersose

Thanks Curt!


----------



## madclammer

ROM WHAT DISTANCE? (Sorry for the caps)


Someone please answer this. The comment above means nothing unless the distance is known.


The comment means something. it means more pixils are needed !


----------



## lsteere

Quote:

_Originally posted by WanMan_
*Of course! Compare one point source of light to three point souces of light!*
Yeah, but if you turn off the Green tube and just use the Red and Blue and also put on a pair of 3D glasses, the image depth is incredible


----------



## Curt Palme

The newbie says he's going to buy a tube 12" B/W TV.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

measuring the primaries:


guy says: "everything we've been seeing on the dlp has had its colors screwed up."


----------



## lsteere

Quote:

_Originally posted by Curt Palme_
*The newbie says he's going to buy a tube 12" B/W TV.*
Apparently he didn't catch the HT bug during this shootout. The room full of technicians all speaking in a foreign language probably scared him away.


----------



## WanMan

Well Bob, if I point my SIG at them I'll surely shoot them.


----------



## madclammer

I think that being in close proximity to curt palme may have affected the 11k somehow


----------



## RobertWood

Round 9


DLP... 3

CRT... 5

12" black and white... 10


----------



## Chuchuf

Steve,

You gonna jump in and have guy redo your grey scale and set up you contract and brightness and saturation while he's there?? lol


Terry


----------



## lsteere

Quote:

_Originally posted by RobertWood_
*What happened to digital projectors being point and shoot?*
That term when applied to digital projectors has been very misunderstood by most. What it means is that digitals are usually taken out back and shot soon after they are purchased


----------



## madclammer




----------



## penticton102

its amazing what you see when you run out of ammo hehe...........


----------



## RobertWood

You better breathe some life in her, Darin. Or HEAT's never gonna let us hear the end of this.


----------



## HoustonHoyaFan

Is the G70 that much better than the XG1352LC???


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Curt is extremely impressed.


I have mixed reactions mainly because of pixels, but I am sitting a foot or so too close.


the dlp does throw a VERY nice picture though. I would be very happy with this sharp if it were the price of a used crt. It should be soon


----------



## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by ChrisWiggles_
*Curt is extremely impressed.


I have mixed reactions mainly because of pixels, but I am sitting a foot or so too close.


the dlp does throw a VERY nice picture though. I would be very happy with this sharp if it were the price of a used crt. It should be soon*
Seems the digital value drops faster than computers and chips!


----------



## Phil Smith

Don't you guys think that viewing distance is a critical variable, and that ALL of you should sit (or stand) the same distance back, and maintain that exact distance between the pjs?


PS: I've been following this while I do ebay stuff. This has got be the neatest thread I've seen!


----------



## WanMan

I would imagine we each have our tastes for the seating distance, and this could weight one's decision on these two projectors.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

guy and I were sitting a little of to the side and closer. I am sitting about exactly the distance ratio i will be in my HT, which is helpful for me.


weve spent quite a while trying to get the colors set right on the dlp. It looked pretty amazing before regardless. This isnt something youd notice at all, IMO. Just meter readings.


----------



## Phil Smith

Well at least i would think you'd want to maintain your preferred distance while switching pjs.


----------



## QQQ

Quote:

_Originally posted by Phil Smith_
*Don't you guys think that viewing distance is a critical variable, and that ALL of you should sit (or stand) the same distance back, and maintain that exact distance between the pjs?*
I agree. I would think everyone should be sitting at (as close to possible) the same seating distance for the comparison or it's hard to judge the proper context of peoples comments. Or perhaps everyone should view at two distances, say 1.5 times for a few minutes AND 1.2 times for a few minutes or whatever. At the least, I would like to know what ratio/distance people are sitting.


----------



## QQQ

Quote:

_Originally posted by ChrisWiggles_
*guy and I were sitting a little of to the side and closer. I am sitting about exactly the distance ratio i will be in my HT...*
And that's supposed to tell us something ? What's your seating distance/ratio?


----------



## RobertWood

Quote:

_Originally posted by Curt Palme_
*12' (viewing distance) on an 8' wide screen.*


----------



## Guy Kuo

We've just finished resetting the Sharp's primaries and secondaries. Something was amiss and the primaries were about 10% desaturated on the Sharp by colorimetry. Now it's reading normally. Great! We've been watching the DLP with its colors messed up. After fixing we put in Boys and Girls again and are now about to rewatch it with the G70.


----------



## Phil Smith

For all things to be equal, shouldn't you also dial in the G70?


----------



## Kysersose

Quote:

Curt is extremely impressed.


I have mixed reactions mainly because of pixels, but I am sitting a foot or so too close.


the dlp does throw a VERY nice picture though. I would be very happy with this sharp if it were the price of a used crt. It should be soon.
Interesting comments!


----------



## GScott

Did Darin change something this week or is this really how digitals will behave as the bulb ages? Come on guys it has only been a week.


----------



## QQQ

Quote:

_Originally posted by GScott_
*Did Darin change something this week or is this really how digitals will behave as the bulb ages?*
The bulb aging? Come on, be serious . It's on a different screen in a different room.


Edit: My mouse finger is faster Kysersose .


----------



## Kysersose

The G70 was sitting in a house, setup, and already dialed in. The Sharp was just hooked up a few hours ago.


Anyone who owns a Digital knows that even they take some time to dial in properly. Different room, screen, source, etc...

Takes a bit of adjustment.


----------



## Kysersose

Q, by mere seconds...


----------



## WanMan

GScott, also keep in mind that last week Darin used his Momitsu v880 and this week they are using Steve HTPC. Playing the devil's advocate here and pointing a finger at the source.


----------



## GScott

Give me a break. Are you going to tell me that there is so much difference between a 1.3 and 1.5 gain Stewart screen that it takes this long to recalibrate the Sharp? So much for plug and play


----------



## Kysersose

Why not put the Momitsu up against the HTPC?

Just for fun...


----------



## Kysersose

Quote:

Give me a break. Are you going to tell me that there is so much difference between a 1.3 and 1.5 gain Stewart screen that it takes this long to recalibrate the Sharp? So much for plug and play
Different screen, room and source.


A CRT would still be on it's way up the stairs.


----------



## WanMan

Kysersose, I wondered about that myself, but I think it had to do with some (including myself) questioning the two different sources in BLOG#1 shootout.


GScott, I know, I know. First, my condemning DLP rainbows as a convergence problem that I, and now Curt, can see, and the lack of PnP of turning on Darin's flashlight-come-projector, hehe.


----------



## QQQ

Quote:

_Originally posted by GScott_
*Give me a break. Are you going to tell me that there is so much difference between a 1.3 and 1.5 gain Stewart screen that it takes this long to recalibrate the Sharp?*
Every projector must be calibrated for the screen and source equipment. Nothing unusual about it.
Quote:

*So much for plug and play *
True, plug and play is as much a myth for projectors as it is for computer equipment, IF your goal is an outstanding picture. Otherwise, it's pretty reasonable to call them plug and play.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

we also used the momitsu, we'll have more info in a bit. We're going to report also on the light scatter problems in dark parts within bright scenes. this is in large part a mix of optics, and the room, which is fairly bright. Guy is going to measure the dlp as well to get an idea of how much is the optics on the crt, versus the room, to see if the dlp beats the crt in this regard.


----------



## Kysersose

WanMan, The HTPC was setup for the CRT.

The Momitsu was setup for the Digital.


I really don't see why they can't face off.


I know that if I was to use someone else's HTPC for my projector I would have to change the settings to suit my PJ, not theirs. That takes a fair amount of tweaking and viewing time. IMHO


EDIT: There's also the different screen and room to account for.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

"the reasons for dialing in the dlp were because we were using the HTPC, and it hadn't been dialed in all the way at guy's house preiously."


----------



## RobertWood

It was just an unfortunate set of cirumstances. They said in the beginning that Darin forgot to bring his HTPC. The Sharp would have been dailed in for that. Then they would have been plugging and playing from the start.


----------



## RobertWood

Or do I have that mixed up and you are using Darin's HTPC?


----------



## ChrisWiggles

now we're measuring the colors of the g70


guy is excited because the red on the g70 is "right on smtpe" "better than the xg"


green: "looks just like the NEC"

guy is baffled with the derision that the g70 gets because of color reproduction. "what are they talking about?"


blue: "pretty dang close" "a little bit worse than the xg"


so blue is a little off versus the xg, green the same, and red is perfect, better than the xg


----------



## ChrisWiggles

we're using steves htpc, darins dvhs, momitsu. the htpc on both g70 and the sharp, the other sources on only the sharp.


----------



## Kysersose

Quote:

so blue is a little off versus the xg, green the same, and red is perfect, better than the xg
Maybe tube wear has something to do with this?


----------



## RobertWood

So see. If Steve's dog had accidentally eaten his PC, and instead they had to feed the G70 with Darin's PC, it would have been just the opposite. They would be re-calibrating the G70.


----------



## WanMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kysersose_
*WanMan, The HTPC was setup for the CRT.

The Momitsu was setup for the Digital.

I really don't see why they can't face off.

I know that if I was to use someone else's HTPC for my projector I would have to change the settings to suit my PJ, not theirs. That takes a fair amount of tweaking and viewing time. IMHO

EDIT: There's also the different screen and room to account for.*
I know what was sources each projector were originally calibrated for. I also know that time is required, but it was harped on about the lack of PnP after an hour and the 11K wasn't ready yet. I am more than willing to give Darin & Co. the time needed to accommodate the HTPC. I also do not think there is a real problem with the 11K using the Momitsu v880, too.


Chris, there isn't a way to use the DVHS with teve's G70?


----------



## Phil Smith

To be a fair test the G70 needed to be tested to be sure it was right as well. It seems now that was on the agenda all along.


----------



## Phil Smith

I agree WanMan. The Z12 should use whatever allows it to be at it's best. This is not a RGB/DVI shoot out.


----------



## RobertWood

But, wanman (and Phil), everybody complained in the first blog *BECAUSE* Darin was using the DVI DVD player. Because it couldn't also be used with the CRT.


----------



## Kysersose

It's a "Digital" projector, not analog. 

Give it what it was meant to use, DVI!


----------



## Phil Smith

Robert I don't see the problem. That's how you would use a Z12 in a normal HT environment. That's a true representation of it's normal performance.


----------



## Kysersose

Quote:

Robert I don't see the problem. That's how you would use a Z12 in a normal HT environment. That's a true representation of it's performance.
BINGO!


----------



## RobertWood

Frankly, I don't either. But I repeat the reason Darin is not using it now is because he took so much flak for not using the same type source for both in the first blog. People said the old Faroudja wasn't up to it. And it was unfair to pit that against the DVI player. So using an HTPC with both was the compromise.


----------



## Guy Kuo

I'll composite together the CIE diagrams for the Sharp and G70 later. We got all the measurements. I think the primaries are close enough that in terms of gamut the NEC XGLC, Sony G70 and Sharp XVZ-12000 are pretty much a draw.


----------



## draganm

so is it over, who won? It can't really be a draw can it. Last time everyone at the shootout seemed to think the Sharp won.

Robert to say that "everyone complained" last time about sending DVI to the Sharp is a little exageration, don't you think. The vast majority didn't care what was fed to the DLP, we just wanted a better signal the CRT and today we got it. It's hard to tell from the thread so far but the better source to the G70 seems to have made a positive difference for the CRT right? Somebody please take a vote, If you had watch all 3 Lord of the Rings movies back to back which machine would you choose?


----------



## Phil Smith

Well I own a G70 and have no plans on switching any time soon (wouldn't have purchased 2 new tubes for it if I was). But being a CRT owner doesn't make me want to weight the test in favor of CRT. I'd like to know how the Z12 performs at it's best.


Frankly, tonight's test couldn't have made me any happier. My G70 should last me at least 5 or 6 years. When it's time for a new pj, I now (for the first time) feel confident that there will be superior digital pjs available, and at a very reasonable price.


I'm currently a very happy CRT owner, but I will have absolutely no problem pulling a Bob Wood in the future and jumping ship to digital.


----------



## Guy Kuo

I'm now leadiing the crew through the scenes in Bring it On which are difficult to render. We're look at the G70. Yes, red on Steve's G70 are convincingly red. The scene wherein the station wagon pulls up to pick up Missy is a tough black level test. On a machine with elevated black level a filmy fog is seen as the station wagon parks. Also, the view of the characters talking as they drive looks great on the G70. Night time football cheer sequence shows great, velvety black levels behind the cheerleaders.


----------



## RobertWood

I agree with you guys that one thing that's going to be key to these comparisons is that a DLP can accept DVI but a CRT cannot. It's not an insignificant thing.

It has a bearing on why my CRT doesn't get turned on but my DLP does.


----------



## Guy Kuo

Going back to the Sharp via the HTPC. We debated HTPC vs the Momitsu because we have color dialed in for the Momitsu and not the HTPC, but people were interested in how the Sharp fared with DVI.


----------



## RobertWood

Quote:

Robert: It's hard to tell from the thread so far but the better source to the G70 seems to have made a positive difference for the CRT right?
Agreed.


----------



## WanMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by RobertWood_
*But, wanman (and Phil), everybody complained in the first blog BECAUSE Darin was using the DVI DVD player. Because it couldn't also be used with the CRT.*
Bob, quit labeling that 'everyone' ...


I mentioned that it would be interesting to have both the projectors on hand been fed the same kind of signaling to rule out a problem from the source/processing/transport. While some may have stated their concern over Darin originally using just his momitsu v880 for DVI-D delivery, I can perfectly understand that if Darin doesn't have his HTPC then trying to configured a Steve-specific (G70) HTPC on the fly to a different projector may warrant a reconsideration for what source to use.


Homestly, I was more concerned over the source/processing/transport Guy originally used for his XG135LC than Darin's Happy Meal DVD player, hehe.
Quote:

_Originally posted by Kysersose_
*It's a "Digital" projector, not analog. 

Give it what it was meant to use, DVI!*
Its being fed DVI-D from Steve's HTPC. Steve setup another resolution for the Sharp 11K, but they had a problem getting it to lock in at 85-Hz. instead it would only work at 60-Hz. I do not know if they resolved this issue.


Guy, glad to hear the primaries are all complete. Woohoo, let's get some commentary on the results of some viewing. Hope you guys weren't expecting to work in the morning.


----------



## JimmyR

If you had watch all 3 Lord of the Rings movies back to back which machine would you choose?

..........................

Careful what you ask for , there's bunch's of lurking and mostly silent Digi guys hovering here.


This isn't a shoot-out anyway, it's an intelligent comparison with a few of our best having fun...

As for me, I've been pushing f5 since 2 O'clock and enjoying myself listening to all the funny stuff some have injected to rub the poor Sharp.


----------



## RobertWood

Okay. It wasn't everybody. Maybe nobody. Hell I've forgotten.


----------



## RobertWood

I think we've all learned one very important thing from all this.

Guy, dump the Faroudja.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

multi monitor setup problems again, frustrating trying to get the output to the sharp to be 60hz so it will display. I reiterate my "computers suck" post of earlier .


----------



## ChrisWiggles

newbie quote: "ohhh, it looks so pixelated"


----------



## RobertWood

QQQ, can't you put a positive spin on this? We're going down in flames here. 


HEAT's gonna be waking up any minute now.


----------



## Kysersose

Quote:

newbie quote: "ohhh, it looks so pixelated"
Who did he/she come with? I smell a CRT plant! 

EDIT: P.S. I can't see pixels on my NEC 240K from about 10 feet back (8 foot screen), what are you guys using? Binoculars!?

Or are you all walking right up to the screen?


----------



## lsteere

A good test scene is the opening chapter in Bourne Identity. Very deep shadows, but also some deep rich colors.


----------



## RobertWood

I guess QQQ's left and gone back down to his showroom. I can see him now removing the DLP's and dragging the CRT's back in. Cussing all the while.


----------



## WanMan

One just needs to know where and what to look for. Heck, throw up any Disnet movie using the white on blue Disney logo and look around Tinkerbell. This was a very easy thing to see limitations.


Of course, we could always throw up a 1:1 resolution pattern and be done with it.


----------



## RobertWood

Quote:

_Originally posted by lsteere_
*A good test scene is the opening chapter in Bourne Identity. Very deep shadows, but also some deep rich colors.*
Wait, QQQ. Don't take down those DLP's yet. There's still hope.


(I think anyway. Which projector are we looking at that has the deep shadows and deep colors. Lord, please tell me it's the DLP)


----------



## lsteere

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kysersose_
*EDIT: P.S. I can't see pixels on my NEC 240K from about 10 feet back (8 foot screen), what are you guys using? Binoculars!?
*
You might want to go to an eye doctor and get checked for cataracts...they're fixable - I think


----------



## WanMan

I think Duncan got new eyes on Ix. I wonder how much that upgrade was and exactly what performance he's getting (gotten?) out of them.


----------



## Kysersose

Quote:

You might want to go to an eye doctor and get checked for cataracts...they're fixable - I think
Actually, I don't need glasses. (Yet)

I've also had a few CRT fellows (from AVS) agree that SDE is not an issue on my setup from 10' back. Are we all blind?


----------



## RobertWood

Would it make any difference to point out now that the DLP can make 35 trillion different shades of color?


----------



## lsteere

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kysersose_
*Actually, I don't need glasses. (Yet)

I've also had a few CRT fellows (from AVS) agree that SDE is not an issue on my setup from 10' back. Are we all blind?*
Probably not...just a bit of humor


----------



## Guy Kuo

Matrix beginning chapter. Overall, comparison of G70 vs Sharp group consensus. The DLP was slightly annoying in the dark opening sequence of Matrix to approximately the same degree that the optical scatter fog on bright scenes in CRT were annoying. On both the CRT and DLP we find that the picture was still watchable. The G70 gets the nod, but not by a large margin.


Now back to Bring it On.


----------



## Kysersose

Quote:

Probably not...just a bit of humor
No problem... you could be right... we're all getting "up there" in age.


----------



## Kysersose

"Seabiscuit" is a really nice transfer. Anyone have it there?


----------



## Guy Kuo

Night football cheer sequence looks better on the CRT. The black background is a tad too bright.


"They're really close," but the G70 wins here.


----------



## RobertWood

QQQ, are you doing anything tomorrow. I could sure use some help getting the AmPro back on the ceiling (apparently where it belongs after all).


----------



## ChrisWiggles

the beginning of the matrix looked about the same to my eyes. Pixels are the most distracting to me, and with so much darkness, there arent many pixels to see. The slightly higher black levels on the dlp didnt lose any detail to my eyes. The sequence looked amazing.



Darin comments that he might prefer the crt by a nudge on "bring it on." We do not admit to having watched thius movie  It's more 3d on the CRT, especially the outdoor football scene, likely because of the darker blacks.


The reds were amazing on the CRT (g70 is filtered), though the dlp we ran via the htpc, which was not optimized for color on the sharp, so while it was not as good, its not a correct comparison. We will try the same on the momitsu with correct color in a bit.


One test scene in bring it on in the car we saw crawling with rainbows because of vertical chrome. Guy points out that the windshield in this scene did not cause a fuzzy film over the scene on either, as it would on older digitals with poorer black levels


----------



## Kysersose

A CRT needs a higher gain screen, a DLP does not. Could this be making the difference? Just curious.


----------



## RobertWood

Curt, have you got a good G70 to sell? Do you ship to Florida?


----------



## WanMan

It does? I'm using a 1.3 gain screen (admittedly only 80" wide) and getting 14fL. I do not see a lack in white level (it is calibrated, too). I believe that some measurements were made, but did this include fL, Guy?


Bob, you're pathetic, man! But you are still welcome in my household.


----------



## Kysersose

Let me rephrase it... I think a CRT would benefit more from a higher gain screen. Maybe I'm wrong but most everyone I know (with a CRT) has a higher gain screen than I do.

I find DLP's too bright on higher gain screens myself. Maybe I'm alone here?


----------



## ChrisWiggles

that was a direct quote off the windows logo viewed on the dlp. The sharpness, though, is IMMENSELY better on the dlp, we certainly all agreed.


----------



## RobertWood

Terry, is it too late to return the HT1000? I've kept good care of it. And I still have the box.


----------



## WanMan

Well, Guy was using a 1.3, same as me, and I know of someone else that uses a 1.3. Of course, I see some that have used 1.8, 2.5, and 3.1 around town, but I think this is when they are pushing the screen size a bit.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

the dlp is actually dimmer in our setup than the crt. the screen gain is 1.5. it is in low light mode.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

As I am not used to dlps, i see rainbows all over, and found them disturbing on LOTR beginning as well. Guy comments that he is largely used to rainbows and doesnt notice them unless he looks.


We are using the low brightness mode for the highest contrast and best blacks on the dlp.


----------



## RobertWood

Pixels, rainbows, shadow puppets, and now the thing aint even as bright.

Guys, we've gotta be honest with ourselves here. And be good sports about it. The fat lady's done sung on this one.


----------



## WanMan

Robert, are you saying you are ready for bed?


----------



## ChrisWiggles

noise in the sky now on the dlp from the momitsu, not present on the htpc on either projector. we will test the disc on a laptop to see if it is on the disc or momitsus fault


----------



## penticton102

what does curt have to say ? did he go home already?.........


----------



## WanMan

Chris, forget that just plaug the Momitsu up to the G70 as it will do RGBHV on the DVI interface (a la DVI-A).


----------



## ChrisWiggles

curt left some time ago, he had service to do. He will be posting his thorough results later tonight. Needless to say he was impressed.


----------



## RobertWood

wanman, I've seen DVI-A. Trust me. We don't want them to see that.

Not after Radeon RGB.


----------



## RobertWood

Wait a minute. What am I saying. Yes, by all means compare DVI-A to the CRT. Folks, we've still got a chance.


----------



## WanMan

Robert, I meat to just confirm its the Momitsu and that's it. This certainly would not be a 'best in show' arrangement, but we pity you fools. LOL


----------



## ChrisWiggles

now on the momitsu, the red is almost the same as on the htpc. I see them as the same. It is not as good as on the g70, we all agree. The g70, as shown by guy, is spot on with the red. The dlp is measured a little off. The blacks are amazing still on the dlp.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

wanman: we can't hook up the momitsu to the crt because it would require a setup of the cRT for that refresh. needless to say, a big PITA.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

steve, who owns the g70 says "in a few years a dlp will sweep a crt"


----------



## RobertWood

Shucks. We almost pulled it out.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

newbie leaves and passes judgement:


he was WOW with the crt, and moving to the dlp he was even MORE impressed. But after going back and forth, the crt is smoother overall, things "pop" its subjective, but the colors are also better, and he prefers the CRT overall.


We are all impressed with the picture of both units.


----------



## WanMan

Ok, I'm going to go watch a DVD and then go to bed. I am sure there will be plenty to read in the morning, followed by many, many questions for me to post. I would be most interested if its been determined, though, if Darin feels using an HTPC is better, or not, than his Momitsu v880 for a DVI-D delivered DVD content. I really wonder what kind of performance could have been had with an MP-1 on Steve's G70.


See y'all in the morning!


----------



## Kysersose

Quote:

steve, who owns the g70 says "in a few years a dlp will sweep a crt"
I'm betting within 2.

There are some things that I already prefer from my DLP image over CRT. It's really only a matter of time. (I think everyone will agree to that)

But this shouldn't be a CRT vs Digital thread.

It's all about having fun with our hobby and this has been a great thread!

The technology is different but the hobby is the same.


----------



## RobertWood

You've all gone to a lot of effort and done a fantastic job. And I think after the two comparisons and reading all your comments we now all have a heck of a lot better idea of how a good DLP projector and a good CRT projector actually do compare. Thanks a bunch for doing this. My hat's off to all of you.


----------



## JimmyR

Fun day with you guy's, I'm packing it in also. SUL !


----------



## jcmccorm

I'd like to echo Bob's comments and thank you guys for doing this. It's very interesting and informative.


Cary


----------



## ChrisWiggles

I think most of my comments were sprinkled through the thread, but I'll try to summarize:


These are both amazing projectors. Amazing picture, and if they were the same cost it would be close in my mind. The small size of the DLP for me personally has a big plus because I have low ceiling height. PQ, I still give a slight nod to CRT because of my overall preferences.


CRT's weakness was immense in terms of sharpness. The sharp was, well, much sharper.


However, this can be negative too, pixels are viewable from my position, and some mpeg things especially in grasses, are smoother over by CRTs softness. I find this to be a plus for CRt.


Rainbows bother me on the DLP, moreso than I expected. Guy is very used to them, I am not, and so they bother me. The colors were amazing on both, and the differences were only clearly visible on bring it on, the red costumes.


The 3d effect on the dlp was good, but not as good as the CRT. The CRT still pops off the screen and has a depth that just isnt there on the DLP.


Another thing i forgot to mention is the brightness was more uniform on the DLP than the CRT. These are all very close nitpicks though, and from a distance such that I cant see pixels, I would have a hard time telling the two apart. Both were amazing.


----------



## Guy Kuo

We're getting pretty spent here as well. I think the last will be some 16:9 Times recordings on the G70. I don't know if I can see much more.


We're really lucky to have Chris here today, for he has been able to post much more regularly than we ever could last week.


Sorrry we can't do DVI-analog from the Momitsu to the G70. The timing and signal level changes would have required a full setup of a new memory on the CRT.


----------



## Guy Kuo

Hehehe. After a few minutes of trying to figure out why we weren't getting any picture on the G70 I asked if the picture mute was on. It was.


----------



## noah katz

"CRT's weakness was immense in terms of sharpness. The sharp was, well, much sharper.


However, this can be negative too, pixels are viewable from my position, and some mpeg things especially in grasses, are smoother over by CRTs softness. I find this to be a plus for CRt."


How about a quick additional defocus of the Sharp to see if that smooths things over enough for you w/o losing too much detail?


"The 3d effect on the dlp was good, but not as good as the CRT. The CRT still pops off the screen and has a depth that just isnt there on the DLP."


Hmm, for me the most exciting part of the XG/Sharp comparison was the better 3D effect that Darin reported for the DLP. Is the G70 that much better than the XG?


Perhaps arin will comment on this.


Thanks


----------



## ChrisWiggles

we think its more the function as the htpc versus guys faroudja and toshiba


----------



## Guy Kuo

Thanks all for joining us. Big thanks to Steve for hosting this event. I can't look at any more!


----------



## noah katz

Chris,


"we think its more the function as the htpc versus guys faroudja and toshiba"


Sorry, I'm not clear, is that in response to my questions?


Thanks


----------



## Doug Baisey

Guys,

Geese, I missed the whole thing.


Id also like to say thanks to everyone there, very well done and informative.


Can we get the tube hours as well as the hour count on Darins bulb? Thanks again! Doug


----------



## Guy Kuo

249 hours on the bulb


2300 hours on the tubes


----------



## ChrisWiggles

noah, yes that was their hypothesis. I was not at guys to see his xg, so their impressions and such are theirs, as to why the g70 here seemed to be better.


----------



## Phil Smith

Thanks guys! That was great! Sure sounds like everyone came out a winner on this shoot out, including HTPCs!


----------



## HoustonHoyaFan

Guy

any ANSI CR numbers on the G70? It looks like almost 50% reduction in ANSI CR for the sharp from the XG shootout. Did that make a material difference?


----------



## darinp2

I think Chris has probably posted most of the comments I made while moving around and changing sources that might be of interest. Overall I think the HTPC to the G70 cleaned up some of the issues I saw on faces in "Boys and Girls". Overall I think I prefer these images from this CRT setup to my 11k in high CR mode a little bit. Probably more on DVD than HD. Some of the issues with noise on faces I saw on the XG135LC with the Faroudja 3000 also seemed to showup on the 11k with TheaterTek, but not as bad. Switching to the V880 seemed to fix most of that up, but then we saw some issues in the blue sky on "Bring it On." I'm looking forward to getting my Denon 5900 that I have on order to see how it compares.


We're watching "The Fifth Element" in HD right now on the CRT. It looks really good, but I'm wondering if I might like a little more image punch. I tend to prefer my Firehawk for DVDs and my High Power for the cleaner HD sources. I could live with these images, though.


The whole video level vs PC levels is really frustrating to me and I believe this is the reason that I see some banding with the WM9 version of "Coral Reef" on the 11k. I don't see the same kind of banding with HD IMAX films through component. At this point I would bet that I wouldn't see as much banding with one of the new "Windows Media" PCs that output video levels, but I'm not going to spend any money on one of those at this point. I hope the Bravo D3 will play these DVDs as I bet it will output the correct video levels.


--Darin


----------



## luke_3891

thanks guys, another very interesting thread. it does seem it comes down to if you like the smoother picture the CRT creates compared to the sharp picture a digital has. personally im all for the shaprmess and punch of the image, but i think now, and it seems to be, all about preference on smoothness and sharpness. all that has to be done now is drop those prices for DLP's. this will make many switch to digital and wil then help out the CRT guys with even cheaper CRT's. although that part about digitals getting that cheap will be some time from now.


----------



## Ohlson

The big thing about the earlier comparison 11k and xg was with comments about the image depth.


Questions

Did you resolve the room scatter vs projector related scatter. The room effect on the ANSI reading, the light pollution of reflected light by the room can that be a factor in swinging the image depth crown?


Any ambient light issues that was hard to eliminate during the test?


----------



## Li On

Quote:

_Originally posted by WanMan_
*Chris, forget that just plaug the Momitsu up to the G70 as it will do RGBHV on the DVI interface (a la DVI-A).*
I tried that quite a while ago. It sucks!


Btw, instead of 720p, also try 1080i on the G70. IMO they both look great and depends on each tast.


regards,


Li On


----------



## Stornn

This thread was a really interesting read, but the thing that puzzles me is that in the NEC vs Sharp thread the big difference between the projectors was the image depth and 3d qualities which put the sharp ahead. Here it was not the case. I thought the NEC was supposed to be better than the G70?


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Stornm, I wasn't at the previous shootout so I don't know, nor do I feel like pludging back through that thread to find those reactions right now. But their hypothesis was that this was source/processor related, not projector related. So the HTPC was a better source than guy;s setup, though guy's room is apparently much superior than Steve's which has some black fabric on the floor and ceiling in front of the screen, but the rest is pretty light colored. This made for a lot of spill back onto the screen.


We never did make it back to measure the dlp's light scatter, we did that on the crt i think. But after viewing, both suffered from the room scatter. However, lens/phosphor scatter in the g70 was significant too. This is what guy was alluding to in the previous thread about CR, is that this is better with the DLP, EVEN compared to an LC CRT. As black levels continue to get better on the digitals, i think that this advantage will far outweigh the total pitch black that CRT can achieve. Pitch black is great when the WHOLE scene is black, but if there is black and light in the same scene, then a lot of that CRT CR is lost because of lens scatter and such.


----------



## Ohlson

I understand that it is difficult to say and remember , but


darinp2 and Guy Kuo

Do you believe the 11k showed the same depth in this room with the 1.5 gain screen as in the last "shootout"?

Could it be that the crt gained depth from a better source and that the dlp lost more depth in this setupt than the crt since the crt has more black level to spare?


I mean every projector deserves the best it can get, both the crt and the dlp. It may be that a dlp needs a better light controlled room to reach its image depth maximum.


When dlp gets fade to black technology this should no longer be the case. Then it is

dlp

smaller, sharper, less light scatter

crt

smoother, artifact "free"


----------



## ChrisWiggles

"artifact "free""


I found this a fascinating issue. I felt that the sharp revealed more detail, but often to negative results. Difficult to describe this here, but there were a couple scenes in more than one clip with grasses and bushes that had tons of detail going on. On DVD especially, MPEG compression rendered them "stuck" pretty much. As the breeze blew, the motion moved in large chunks, and it was very distracting and unnatural on the DLP, which rendered each pixel very sharply.


The CRT, on te other hand, sort of "mushed" this a little bit. The ugliness of the MPEG compression was smoothed out, and the jerky clumpy unnatural motion that should have been swaying in the breeze was much more natural than the dlp. The dlp correctly rendered the image data, which was unnatrual clumped jerking. Which is "better" and which is more "accurate" is hard to say. Not always the same thing?


We saw this on sky scenes as well. Things were just smoother on the CRT, which also had it's pluses and minuses.


The grass effect also was strange in leilu's hair in the 5th element. There was strange honeycombing going on in her hair on both DVD, and to a lesser extend, HD. This was much more objectionable on the sharp, yet still viewable on the CRT.


Ok thats enough for me for today, i think my brain is suffering from text burn by now...


----------



## Steve Smith

I had a great time hosting this event today. Everyone in attendence seemed to thoroughly enjoy giving both projectors and our eyes a good workout. And I finally got to meet Curt and also Chris. Curt had a long drive from Vancouver and showed up about an hour early. We had some time to get aquainted and look at a basketball game on HDNet and the Hulk on DVD before everyone else arrived.


We had a few technial issues that slowed us down but nothing insurmountable. The worst of it was getting my HTPC's DVI output configured to work with the 11k. This should have been something simple but I have never used the DVI output and was somewhat unfamiliar with it. We finally got it working after some trial and error. We had planned on using Darin's HTPC for the 11k but he forgot it at home, not surprising considering the amount of equipment he brought with him. We also got tripped up on some settings while adjusting the colors on the 11k which took a bit longer than expected.


I'd like to thank Guy for taking the time to measure and plot the CIE coordinates for the G70. For a long time the G70 has been thought to have less accurate color reproduction than the XG's. I always thought the colors on the G70 were great and were comparable to the XG's. We now have the data to back that up.


Both the G70 and 11k are great machines. I don't think you could go terribly wrong with either of them. Both also have their strengths and weaknesses. Some scenes we compared were just to close to call either machine a clear winner.


The dark scenes we watched like the opening of the Matrix and LOTR I thought favored the G70 which was able to reproduce deeper blacks and didn't continue to light up the screen when it faded to black. Some scenes where there was a bright background with dark foreground objects favored the 11k, there was a bit less light scatter from the dlp. There's a scene in Bring it On where the cheerleaders are on the field with the night sky in the background. Here I thought the the G70 had better blacks, color, and depth of field. But again this was not a night and day difference and the 11k still looked very very good.


As mentioned earlier the 11k exhibited some banding on the WMV-HD Coral Reef disk. This was disappointing and pretty much ruined the Coral Reef presentation on the 11k. I know Darin will get to the bottom of what the problem is. We also saw something similar but to a lesser extent on the Living Seas played form the V880. I saw a lot more rainbows from the 11k today compared to last week, not sure why but I did find them kind of distracting and annoying at times.


Overall I preferred look of the G70 to the 11k but not by a huge margin. This time around the HTPC really made things a lot closer. I'm sure Guy's XG would have looked similar to the G70 with a HTPC connected. The 11k continues to impress me. Late in the evening Darin showed us some video based HD that looked pretty amazing.


I'm too tired to continue writing, more later....


Steve


----------



## Ohlson

ChrisWiggles

In my interpretation of your words a dlp has more to gain with a higher bit rate source with more resolution and less digital looking compression. The crt will continue to smooth things out and the dlp will just keep on showing what you feed it.


Did hd reduce artifacts on dlp compared with dvd. 1080p might be very good for the dlp if feed material sampled at 4k and displayed at 1080p by a dlp. Then the dlp would show presmoothed pixels and not just pixels.


----------



## darinp2

I was thinking about today as I drove home. I think in the end I preferred the CRT for mostly the same reasons that I prefer D-ILA over DLP in general. That is, if I could get a D-ILA with good CR. We all prefer different things and I'm starting to think that ANSI CR isn't as high on my list as it is on some people's, but on/off is still up there a ways. And lack of artifacts and shadow detail are both huge in my book. The lack of artifacts was probably the biggest difference today with the CRT vs the last CRT. I think it was just the HTPC vs the Faroudja 3000. I probably should mention that my experience in the past in my multiple setups is that CR matters less in rooms with white walls (like my living room) than with completely light controlled rooms with black velvet, like I have in my theater room.


I was sitting at about 1.7x for a lot of this material and to tell the truth, other than absolute black level in the darkest frames I thought a lot of the images looked almost exactly the same on both projectors. I really had to concentrate to try to see some of the differences. When I sat at about 1.5x I think I noticed the smoothing on the CRT more.


We were trying some different material and I'm not sure about the 3D effect on the DLP compared to last time. I think it might have been less, but I'm really not sure. Chris noticed that the CRT looked more 3D than the DLP, but I didn't notice it that much sitting back at the 1.7x spot. I think Chris has pretty good eyes for finding problems/weaknesses. Also, I was getting stuff ready part of the time and missed some of the test material on one or the other.


I was amazed at how much the screen lit up in completely black scenes on the CRT just when somebody would open a laptop facing away from the screen. It doesn't take much light to get rid of black.


Somebody may have already mentioned that there were some lines near the top of the image with the G70 that were noticable with completely black frames. I'm not sure if the gray "black" of the 11k would bother me more or these lines during frames that are meant to be black.


If I was making the decision of what to get 1 1/2 years ago with the knowledge I have now and the digitals that were available then, I might get a CRT for my theater room and a cheaper digital for using other places. However, today I think I am more likely to just sell the NEC 9PG+ that I have. Digitals have advanced since then and are improving fairly quickly, IMO. At least that 9PG+ should still have some value after today's shootout.


I'm still amazed that we were getting 7.5 ft-lamberts or so with the 11k before a screen that probably wasn't putting out much more than that to the people on the sides (outside the viewing cone) and yet people thought it was fairly bright.


I definitely learned quite a bit today, which was one reason for doing the comparison/shootout. Thanks for hosting, Steve.


--Darin


----------



## Guy Kuo

The situation for today's comparison was indeed different. The room's higher reflectivity took away nearly half of the DLP's advantage in handling higher APL scenes. Optical scatter for the DLP was raised by the room so that meant its superior clarity effect was diminished in moderately dark to medium scenes. It still was visibly less foggy in the brighter scenes, but the room took away the depth advantage it enjoyed in my black room. That meant that the CRT was able to maintain a superior sense of depth from very dark scenes on up to a higher level because optical scatter was more similar. It's basically two forms of optical light pollution in effect. The total pollution determines the sense of fogginess. The CRT starts with a lower floor (deeper black) buck suffers more scatter as APL goes up. The DLP starts with a higher floor (brighter black) and suffers less optical scatter as APL goes up if nothing else causes the scatter to increase faster than the projector optics. The room has a large effect and greatly shifts the cross over point at which the CRT and DLP trade places in terms of clarity. This fundamentally favored the CRT today.


In terms of signal quality. The HTPC I think pretty clearly delivered a cleaner signal to the CRT. This was another factor in favor of the CRT compared to last weeks comparison. The difference is notable enough that a Windows Media PC will definitely be joining my setup soon.


As expected, the DLP was sharper and had better geometry than the CRT. That point we can pretty much concede. As pointed out by Chris, this will tend to show noise that might be hidden by the softer focused CRT.


The lesser number of avialable image intensities on the DLP was more evident today in the form of visible banding during some scenes. The severity of these was probably exacerbated by a DVI signal level definition mismatch in the system. That created a signal expansion on the WM9-HD Coral Reef material and quite severe banding. Beyond that, the sharp focus of the DLP definitely brought out more detail in HD than the G70 could deliver.


Color accuracy on the G70 is quite close to that of the NEC. The red and green phosphor chromaticities were basically indisinguishable. Blue was slightly more saturated on the NEC but really not to any great extent. I don't think we should be deriding the Sony G70 as having inferior color to an NEC XG. I don't measure or see a significant difference in that regard.


The Sharp had slightly oversaturated and blue red and a more yellow green than the CRT's. It's blue was however more accurate than either the NEC or XG's blue. The secondaries of the Sharp were adjustable for near perfect placement, but I was a bit vexed to find ourselves needing to redo some of our color correction work. Once that was corrected, colors were better. The reds in Bring it On did look a bit more saturated and bluish on the Sharp than on the G70. This is consistent with what we measured for the red primary. We didn't take the time to attempt correcting the red primary on the Sharp. That would have taken more patience than we had. In retrospect, I think we should tried to fix that. The pressure to move on and see more material was present. I doubt many of us found Darin and my working on the color primaries and secondaries much fun to watch.


The signal source and room both had an effect on todays comparison. Last week, the relatively noisy signal on the CRT hurt its performance while the DLP enjoyed freedom to take advantage of its lesser optical scatter. The DLP clearly had greater depth of image last week over the majority of material. I think this week the situation was changed and the clarity was probably split 50/50 between the two. The CRT winnning in the lower APL's and the DLP winning in the upper APL's. In other words, the situation was better for the CRT while the DLP suffered a worse environment.


Overall, the CRT probably gets the most nods in my mind this week. It's not a landslide victory. The DLP wins in terms of sharpness and upper APL clarity. As we viewed material it was evident that both projectors were turning in good showings and we were at the level of nitpicking. A passer-by from the street would have a very hard time deciding which was the better picture. We all had our points of interests. What was anathema to one observer was inconsequential to another. Hence, the seeming conflicting opinions as we went along.


I think a 9 inch CRT should be able to beat the DLP, but I must stress strongly that the venue should be with totally black surfaces. Otherwise, you allow the room to greatly affect the results when considering apparent image depth. Since we are comparing projectors, we probably should remove the room as much as possible.


A most enjoyable day it was. I'm happy to find a little more life left in my CRT. I'm also delighted to see the DLP still put in a respectable showing despite being hobbled by the room reflectivity. At any rate, I'm exhausted and ready for sleep.


----------



## JeffY

Interesting point, DLP needs a darker room than CRT?


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by JeffY_
*Interesting point, DLP needs a darker room than CRT?*
That is a tough one, but I think Guy has hit on an important point. It should be mentioned that this may not extend to all DLPs, though. For instance, the InFocus 7200 has much lower on/off CR than the 12k does in its high CR mode and then a dark room could have some disadvantages.


It might not be that the DLP needs a darker room than CRT, but if the question is, "How much could I improve my images by covering the room in velvet?" the answer might be much higher improvement with the 12k than with a CRT with lower ANSI CR. There is gold in them there hills, so to speak. If you want to see that high ANSI CR of the 12k you need to have a pretty good room, but if you do the room right you can find the improvement in many of these scenes. I'm not even sure we know the ANSI CR of the 12k as it can be hard to test. The highest numbers I've gotten were close to 800:1 by covering the screen in my dark room with a dark sheet. I think we were all the way down to 360:1 or so today. These were pointed at the projector. If we were pointing at the screen I think the ANSI CR drop from a dark room to today's room might have been even bigger. BTW: I like the way the room is layed out and I wouldn't change this if I were Steve. I'm just commenting on the physics.


The downside I see to darker rooms are that they seem to make on/off CR weakness more obvious. That is just my experience, though. In my white walled living room even with a 400:1 or so on/off D-ILA there were many times where the high black level just looked like the screen was a different shade than the off white walls behind (this requires perfect masking or it is obvious that the projector is creating an outline). With black velvet everywhere the contrast between the dark gray in a frame that is supposed to be black but isn't on a digital and the black wall behind is pretty obvious.


--Darin


----------



## Ohlson

I understand what you talk about , but what does APL stand for? Is it Average Light Pollution?


It will get very interesting when dlps start showing with the technology that lets the dlp move the dynamic range from frame to frame. Then the dlp should mostly have the advantage of optical clarity and sharpness and the final defenses of the crt picture will be smoothness and lack of dlp like artifacts.


The big question is if it will be dlp or lcos that will make the final challenge on crt now that black is most likely coming to lcos. However dlp might beat lcos to this challenge in time.


----------



## dokworm

We noticed the same thing here with playing with a 12K in Oz, curtains open exposing the walls, and the light pollution killed the 3D look of the dlp. curtains closed and the dlp had a better '3D look' than the crt, although the lighter 'black' in fade to black scenes etc was more obvious.

So like anything video or audio, you need to match your room to your gear.

What we 'decided' is that the dlp was certainly at the very least an equal of my PG, and with the room right most of us preferred the dlp - if only they could solve the fade to black...

It would be neat if the projector could detect a black frame and actually turn off the picture altogether!


----------



## dokworm

BTW anyone seen an LCOS unit running? How does it look?


----------



## Tom Rosback

Great thread, thanks to all for the considerable time and effort it takes to pull this off. All the tweaking, fiddling, PC problems, and critical watching are stressful and time consuming. More work than fun. But this is how we get better.


I'm probably years away from a projector replacement, and its great to see the DLP machines closing in on CRT. We'll all be the better for it.


Since I own the 'Rodney Dangerfield' of 8" CRT machines, this was, at least, a little validation of what I already knew. The G70, properly set up, is a mean machine that throws a very bright, competitive picture.


----------



## Vern Dias

Quote:

with TheaterTek
Well, I guess you all didn't really see the best detail, from DVD at least, that either projector has to offer, then.


Based on tests I have run using several test DVD's including DVE and AVIA, as well as a lot of critical DVD viewing, Theatertek comes in at 3rd place in clearly rendering detail in both the vertical and horizontal dimension, while minimizing ringing.


1st place is the new Nvidia FWMM player in either HW or SW mode.


2nd place is WinDVD 4 or 5 in software decode mode.


Sounds like material for another shootout......


Vern


----------



## JeffY

TT is better than WinDVD 4 or 5, software mode or not. No problem about that. As for the new NVdia player, we will just have to wait and see, I'll let you know if its better as and when I see it.


----------



## lsteere

Thanks for all your efforts. Very fun shootout for all of us.


----------



## Chuchuf

Steve, Darin, Curt, Guy, Chris and anyone else there I just want to say thanks for the real time report that was put out and all your efforts. Sound like ya'll had a lot of fun in the process. Thi thread in view had to set a record.

Now ya'll know why I cryed foul at the last one. The HTPC for the money IS the only way to go. And Guy if you are looking at one in your future, take a look at the MP modded video card for it. There is nore improvement to be had with it. Also it would appear that the GForce 5700 is coming on strong to give the ATI cards a run for their money.

Steve's G70 had almost 3K hrs on the CRT's interesting. I'll bet we might have been able to get a bit more focus out of it, but homestly when compared side my side even the least expensive of digital projectors at their native resolution will have a sharper desktop. We all expect that.

I am really glad to see that Curt had an opportunity to see a well set up G70. They are a very nice 8"LC projector and right up there with the XG. Heck they both use the same exact P16 tubes except for a difference on the G2 pinout. The XG tends to focus up a bit sharper and the G70 has what most describe as a more "film like" quality. Tom....."It just can't get no respect!!!!"

Also, us curved screen owners know that you can get even more out of a CRT if you go that route. Tons of contrast and a great 3d look and as side benefit (or maybe a primany benefit) a larger than normal screen.

Scott if you can find someone with a high end digital (we have been unsuccessful to date) we could definately arrange a shootout with either a G90 or MP modded 9500LC here. It would be fun.


Terry


----------



## wireburn

APL=Average Picture Level


-Mike


----------



## Vern Dias

Quote:

TT is better than WinDVD 4 or 5,
Certainly not true in my environment. A very large screen, (5' x 12') with a relatively close viewing distance (15').


Note that when I make my comparisons, I am comparing the WinDVD and NVidia FWMM directshow filters using Zoom Player as a front end to the TT player with its included Sonic filters. I certainly agree that the TT user interface is better than either the WinDVD or Nvidia user interface, but image quality, including proper handling of the chroma decoding, is my overriding concern.


Vern


----------



## scottatl

reading these posts it really seems that if sharpness is the biggest issue of the Nice DLP, then a 9 inch would do some real damage to it in the battle field.


Guess I will just keep burning through my tubes and in another 6k hours of watching i will need to get a DLP or that G90 I am still drooling over.


----------



## Chuchuf

Yea Scott, the G90 really has a very nice tight focus. Very similar to the dlp's. So does an MP modded 9500LC and the Barco 1209S is nice as well but need color correction.


Terry


----------



## WanMan

Drain, Guy, Steve, Chris, and Curt (and anyone else I may have missed), thanks for a wonderful evening of enlightening experience. I greatly enjoyed this thread and I wish I had been there. I agree with Guy about a completely black environment and this will be a challenge in future comparisons.


I am also surprised at the relative forward performance of an unmodified ATI-based HTPC compared to the DVP-3000 from the previous weekend. I now really wonder how clean of a signal an HTPC with an MP-1 (especially based on the best ATI card or the nVidia 5700 MP has been raving about) would look for the CRT.


I can also see that one really needs to work on the DLP-DVI connectivity for HTPC sourcing. Sorry to hear there was such a difficult and problematic situation you found yourselves facing, but you did seem to overcome those obstacles.


I do recognize and believe it is difficult, and maybe unfair, to expect to use the same sources/processing/transports for two very technologically-different projectors. I think the previous week's complaints were incorrectly identified as being unfair because of dissimilar sources, but those warmongers could have been quelled by simplifying finding a means to eliminate the CRT being the cause of negatives being observed (i.e. verifying its in the source, processing, or transport).


The upcoming (future) comparisons will have a much better knowledge base from which to draw upon in the preparation department. Kind of like 'measure twice, cut once' kind of operating modus. Personally, I am really eager to see the 12K perform with its best delivery means against something similarly priced in terms on one's afford-ability.


Well, I think any future comparisons take place we should come up with a set of software sources (DVD, DVHS, HD, etc.) that should be used, what to look for (chapters, timestamps, etc.) for the comparison, and what also to watch out for in setup and calibration.


----------



## NIN74

Thank you guys! Now, I have one question.

Many says that DLP are plug-and-play but I see here in you thread that it take some time to get it 100% right. Now, how much time was spent on the DLP to calibrate it?


Thanks again


/Mattias


----------



## Doug Ravizza

Quote:

_Originally posted by Chuchuf_
*take a look at the MP modded video card for it. There is nore improvement to be had with it.*
Terry,


This is a bit of an understatement IMO. The difference was quite dramatic on my G70 going from a non-modded Radeon 9500 to the MP1 version. Adding a 5X run, 30ft. long, of Belden 1694A (P/N 7712A, I think) improved things even more.


Doug


----------



## HEAT

Interesting..


So,to summarise,the G70 had better colours,better blacks, more depth,no rainbows,no pixels.


The Sharp has better brightness and was sharper.


I agree with the brightness but the sharpness? uummm...I believe this is a trait of the pixel panel not REAL sharpness,first we must think..is the G70 able to resolve everything up on the screen? im sure the answer is yes..so what is the Sharp replicating that the G70 isnt?

I believe nothing..I saw the same thing with my 12ht-a perception of more sharpness thats down to the technology used to produce the signal thats all.

Measurements of the signal might settle this though..


No if my memory serves me,the 1272 tubes were a little bigger than the G70`s?(..obviously the 1272 wasnt as bright..)-so its not SO off the wall to believe that a well set up 7"+ crt projector like the 1272 may best the Sharp?


I believe though i have been proven correct inasmuch as comparing to a 9" is premature-it had to show what it could do with a 8"...now either the G70 is a better machine than Guys NEC-or the NEC has some problems?


It would be interesting to re-run the Sharp v`s NEC shootout..


Because something doesnt equate-by general consensus the G70(..when you read between the lines of the politically correct comments..) is better.


YET the NEC gets a bit of a pasting...both 8" machines? ..strange..


Whatever you do dont put the Sharp up against a 9"-Darin will shoot himself!!


  


Seriously though,I have said all along the Sharp is at the top of the tree in dlp land-never denied that,my issue was bringing it out of its tree to enter into another league-over zealously claiming things for the Sharp that i knew were false.


I would expect the Sharp-at its price-being the top dlp-to fare well against ANY projector-thats not the point though-IS the Sharp better than top level crt`s?

The answer must be no.


The only thing in issue is how far the Sharp is able to compete-clearly it cant compete above 8"(..i dont think it would beat 7"+-but thats my opinion).


In fairness.the Sony VPH D50Q im playing with at the moment puts up a cracking little picture THAT i think is on a par with the Sharp.


Based on projectors I have seen this is how i would call it overall pic quality wise-all factors considered & in relation to this thread.


(1) G90- overall score;- 98/100


(2) G70-overall score;- 96.5/100


(3) 1272-overall score- 94.5/100


(4) Sharp-overall score- 92/100


(5) D50Q-overall score- 91-92/100?


Places 3 & 4 i admit could be reversed by some-its close..



Another thing to consider is that in the eyes of some,the Marquee 9500lc ultra might be a 98.5/100,the Cine 9 may be a 99/100..personal taste..


It comes down to as well ,what facets of the picture are most important to you-though i have tried to score overall,i realise that for some black level is the most important thing -even down to allowing that person to ignore other "problems" in the picture.


Some rate colours as THE priority for them..


I would also say that i have to agree with some of the conclusions about digitals future.i think this is a good showing by the Sharp-I knew it would not "beat" the G70 -but it got "closer" than some might expect,i think the key to beating crt is a little more res than Qualia and a lot more black level than the Sharp ( 12,000:1 will do i suppose..)-then they will be real close to 9".


THE only stumbing block for a digital contender is not being able to achieve that sense of 3d depth that crt can do-that digital because of the pixel structure cannot emulate-this is for me a real sticking point.


That is the most persuasive singular quality of crt for me.


My forecast? three years from now the 9" crt loses. BUT FOR NOW..the crt reigns.

I certainly applaud Darin though for getting the Sharp close enough to be considered a contender by many-but ultimately its like when Naseem Hamed tried to beat Barrera..


----------



## RobertWood

Quote:

"It comes down to...what facets of the picture are most important to you"
Actually, for me it comes down to the content of the movie. I guess I'm weird that way.


----------



## Chuchuf

I think that Guy has agreed that the source in his NEC is really not up to the source of a well set up HTPC (which Steve actually had sans MP1 mod). That is the only reason the NEC XGLC didn't show well in my opinion.

The XGLC and G70 are both fantastic 8" PJ's and for sharpness the XG might even be a bit ahead of the G70. Colors are close but the controls on the XG will give you a boost in R if you want it.

According to the Sony Projection guys at CES, 3 or 4 generations from now they "hope" that the Qualia will be a comparable PJ to the G90. This is what they said, not us. If you look at the way they produce images, there is something o be said for not having any color wheels in the light path. And the spaces between the crystals are so small that screen door becoes a non issue.

Personally I believe that LCOS has the most to gain from digital advancements in the future with the technologies that are being used today. We will see if they can get the CR right with some work that is being done in that area.


Terry


----------



## luke_3891

this is my opinion, but going to the 9" projector isnt a great deal of differnce from an 8" or 7". i think its a little overated when people talk about such supposedly big differences between projectors. the difference is subtle with the tighter beam focus but apart from that, i cant see why people say they should put the Sharp up against a 9" CRT, when in honesty, it will make no "big" difference.


the tests from how i read it they are peering at scenes to check for deficiences in the image, and in honesty, i dont think in general when sitting back watching a movie, it will be all that noticable, virtually non-existent. in the dark scenes they are showing, its as though you checked for every detail nook and cranny.


ok so your really trying to see whats best, but really, in general many wont be that fussed about the difference between the blacks, as u have noted. in many non home theatre peoples eyes they would percieve the digital to be much better due to the nice sharp picture they produce.


if you read some of the CRT guys crossing over to a digital, many are happy with the slight drop in contrast to have a digital like an LCD Sanyo Z2, which is an excellent projector. ok the blacks just wouldnt hold up to CRT in complete black scenes but looking at it as an overall picture, i think the Z2 looks better than a CRT in general, thats just my opinion though.


i not being rude to anyone here but i think when people state how better an MP-1 (i havent seen one mind you) modded video card will be the difference in picture it makes, for the person just sitting back watching a movie being kind of picky, id say he wouldnt see too much of a difference. lets face it, many of us here just like looking and comparing the smallest of differences because we like to know and like doing it. but really if we all just sit down and relax and watch a movie, im sure many wouldnt find theres not much (big) difference at all between the later digitals (both LCD/DLP-except for blacks) and CRT's.


and no offence HEAT, no one can rate those projectors like that, because in honesty, u wouldnt virtually spot a difference bewteen them all (unless u were to see a digital picture and CRT one). also to notw i havent seen a G90, but have ownbed a 1292, 801 and 6pg.


what are your guys thoughts? really after looking back at it, without looking at a scene mulitple times over, is there really such a big difference to make u buy a whatever $$$ DLP and whatever it costs for a LCD? just like saying is it really in the end worth it ju,ping from an XG to a G90, i dont think so somehow, due to the price difference.


----------



## WanMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by RobertWood_
*Actually, for me it comes down to the content of the movie. I guess I'm weird that way.*
You could spent nothing and gotten your content, but based on the fact that you actually spent something in the neighborhood of $3K for your latest projector is clear evidence that content is not the only thing, Bob, that you are interested in.


luke_3891, cost:advance in moving from a 7" to an 8" to a 9" is not a linear reward. If anything, its more logarithmic.


----------



## Chuchuf

Luke,

Sorry but I don't agree with you here. The difference between a well set up G90 or MP modded 9500 LC and even the 1292 you have owned is not small. It's huge. Of cource as one who looks at these things all the time, I can immediately see the differences. But what I am talking about is very evident even to a casual observer.

And the difference on the ATI stock cards and an MP1 card is also not small. It's pretty big. Can't wait to see what he does with the GForce cards!!


Terry


----------



## lawdawg

Thanks to all involved with this shoot out. Not having access to higher end dlp projectors, I'm gratefull to you for sharing your expeirences.


I don't want to start trouble, but I found it interesting that the digital was hampered by having a lower gain screen and less than optimal light control. They seem to be mirroring CRT's in more than just picture quality these days.


----------



## WanMan

Especially when you look at going from $1500 to $4500 to $9K. With each increase in one's expenditures for the display device the need to better all other aspects of the chain are necessary as well. Thus, one could be spending $2K, to $6K, to $18K very easily and beyond.


----------



## penticton102

did anyone take any pictures of this event ?.................


----------



## luke_3891

Terry,


when people say the MP-1 cleans up the signal, does it help prevent artifacts showing etc?


about the differences betweeen projectors...when you say the differnces are huge, are you talking what exactly apart from the tighter beam spot focus?


i can see differences between the Z2 and 1292 i owned, but for a nice sharp clean picture, i preferred the Z2, even if the blacks arent perfect, thats why i think a few CRT owners have switched to the cheap digital. the marantz S2 i saw i would rahter have than a CRT, the blacks are virtually idnetical to a CRT. anyhow, in the end i have read many say the same about the Z2. ok theres is slight problems with the banding issue as is does have it from what ive seen, but really, but on the whole, the image difference in most scenes, apart from complete dark ones, the Z2 i think looked better. i guess many will have to agree to disagree with each other here depending on how picky people are.


im picky but can give leeway to minor problems in getting the best picture. as far as reading these threads, even though i think theres isnt much difference, i think they still are a very interesting read because i love to know about the latest and greatest in home theatre.


luke

Quote:

_Originally posted by Chuchuf_
*Luke,

Sorry but I don't agree with you here. The difference between a well set up G90 or MP modded 9500 LC and even the 1292 you have owned is not small. It's huge. Of cource as one who looks at these things all the time, I can immediately see the differences. But what I am talking about is very evident even to a casual observer.

And the difference on the ATI stock cards and an MP1 card is also not small. It's pretty big. Can't wait to see what he does with the GForce cards!!


Terry*


----------



## luke_3891

yeah i agree with you there to a degree WANMAN. but like i said before, in my view, on a 100" screen, your not going to see a gigantic difference, well not enough to justify spending the extra $$$$.


if you run a largre screen like a guy i know at 5m wide (Millsy, had posted his image before on here) i guarantee you can detect differences between cheap display devices versus the dearer ones.


Quote:

_Originally posted by WanMan_
*Especially when you look at going from $1500 to $4500 to $9K. With each increase in one's expenditures for the display device the need to better all other aspects of the chain are necessary as well. Thus, one could be spending $2K, to $6K, to $18K very easily and beyond.*


----------



## WanMan

The Marantz VP12-S2 had blacks virtually the same as a CRT? I would seriously question a) the environment, and b) the setup before I could resolve this stance. Heck, if Marantz believed this they wouldn't have gone for the S3, but then again this is why I question what I did.


----------



## luke_3891

of course they are always advancing tewchnology with better blacks, but the S2 in my eyes done very well, i wouldnt say theres a great deal of difference between blacks on a CRT and the S2. this is where i start to point out how picky we all are i guess. to really find out how the blacks compared to the CRT, you would have to put it side bu side and start doing what the guys have done here. really, i think to many peoples eyes, many wouldnt see a big difference.


FYI, the S2 i saw was in a completely dark room from memory at a local AV store running HDTV. unfortunately we couldnt see any dark movies to be played on it. also to note that the HDTV loop consists of mainly brighter scenes with the occasional dimmer one.


Quote:

_Originally posted by WanMan_
*The Marantz VP12-S2 had blacks virtually the same as a CRT? I would seriously question a) the environment, and b) the setup before I could resolve this stance. Heck, if Marantz believed this they wouldn't have gone for the S3, but then again this is why I question what I did.*


----------



## Raul GS

It is interesting how it is clear that the Sharp was disadvantaged by the room, yet there aren not nearly as many people claiming foul. Further, it is interesting how some "non-biased" comments are very quick to draw conclusions about the inferiority of the Sharp in most areas even though the short comings of the environment have been stated and explained, and the possibility insufficient setup for the Sharp has been suggested.


Cheers

R.


----------



## JeffY

How many DLP owners have really dark rooms compared to CRT owners?


----------



## Curt Palme

HI gang, I had to leave at about 6 PM yesterday to attack a dead BG 800 and then have a 3 hour drive back to Vancouver. Made it home at about 11:30 PM..


I also thank Steve once again, Darin and Guy for bringing hardware (watching 4 wireless laptops in action all in one living room was interesting in itself), and to everyone else that I met yesterday, including the blonde hitch-hiker...(oops, wrong forum!)


I'm going to sum this all up a bit differently, after which I may be banned from the realm of tweakers, let alone this forum.


As I've said before, I've never liked the G 70 as to the colors and overall picture based on units that I've seen in the past. I always thought that they were washed out compared to the XG's that I've set up. As I walked into Steve's place, the WOW factor of the G 70 driven with HDTV hit me like a slap in the face.


As stated by others early in this thread, the pix of the g 70 is every bit as good as any XG that I've set up here, but as I've said to many newbies, trying to judge which CRT is 'the best' is like trying to pick the best set out of a wall of TV's at BEst Buy or Circuit City, it depends in what you like in a picture. AS mentioned numerous times in this thread, a lot of the PQ also has to do with what is driving the projector.


While I arrived early and I had about an hour of watching the G 70 with Steve demoing the new HD DVD and a satellite HD source, most of the shootout while I was there was spent tweaking the DLP and sorting out signal issues. I had about 2 hours of viewing time with the DLP.


THere's no question in my mind that a DLP and a CRT each gives a completely different picture. Throw a movie and a Windows desktop up with the projector source hidden, and I'll bet any of us in the room would be able to pick out what technology was throwing the image every time.


THe CRT is a bit softer than the DLP, the DLP is sharper.

The CRT has better blacks and no rainbows.

The color rendition of both was excellent IMHO, and having seen any number of low end digitals, the WOW factor for me with Darin's Sharp was damn high..


NOw here's where I'll differ perhaps in the opinion of what's 'better':


1) There is no one winner. To a newbie that is used to seeing dead CRT's in a sports bar, or maybe owns a Sony 10XX series or a video only Zenith, the G 70 with an HTPC is unbelieveable. To someone like me, I was blown away by the DLP.


2) As you all know, I spend most of my time repairing projectors rather than dialling them in. If I would have shown up at Steve's place yesterday on a service call, I would have walked in, seen his image, and said 'well, the set works, my job here is done"..


3) Guy has once again upped himself to a god-like status with the phenomenal amount of tweaking that he can do on any projector to get that last nano-percent of performance out of any display device (not that he wasn't at that level in my mind having met him last year..)


But there's a point to be made here. WE were about 90 minutes into the demo when we threw in the AVIA PRO disc, and I noticed that the grays were a bit yellow/green. As soon as I said it, we all saw it, and out came the colorimeters and light level meters. But no-one had said anything until the AVIA disc came out.


There were other issues with the image that I didn't notice that were pointed out to me, and once they were pointed out, I saw them as well.


Point is here, everyone has different expectations of what the image should and shouldn't be.


In my opinion (and don't kill me here), is that the Sharp gives many options to tweak the colors within the menus. Enough so that a newbie messing with the controls at random will completely screw it up.. But even before Guy started tweaking these controls well into the demo, the picture of both the G 70 and Sharp were excellent. The tweaking that was done in my eyes at least amounted to less than a 1% improvement. Noticeable? well yes, but that's where I personally would not spend 3 hours dialling in a projector before I wanted to watch a movie. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but as was pointed out earlier, it would be interesting to make the measurements on both projectors in 1500 hours from now. Both the CRT will have a bit of phosphor wear, and the DLP should show some color shift due to the amount of bulb wear.


Would anyone other than someone that already owns a colorimeter bring in an ISF guy to completely redo the color calibration every 1000-1500 hours? I doubt it.


4) Now let's throw in some numbers. I believe Darin is on his 8th digital in about 5 years. While it's enviable that he can do that, and all the power tio him, he's much more the exception than the rule. Most of us have a HT system put together on some kind of budget, be it $2K or $15K or more. Most of us here in the CRT forum (and a lot I guess in the digital forums) are D-I-Y'ers that have fun experimenting, trying to get the best sound and picture with the equipment that we have, and hopefully without spending a bunch of change to upgrade a piece of gear.


The customers that typically call me are seeking out a used projector because they are on a budget, and they don't want to upgrade next year when a better model comes out. THat's where CRT outshines any digital, even the Sharp. I asked Darin what he will dop if the trend continues to discontinue bulbs for a typical digital after 5 years, and he laughed and said that he didn't expect to keep the 11K for more than 2-3 years. Again, I think he's the exception rather than the rule, and sure, I'm jealous!.


So throw in the fact that Steve did not buy is low hour G 70 new, it was used, plus the fact that he can repair the Sony if it fails, plus the lack of bulb costs, and now you have the reason why CRT is a better bargain than digitals.


Should a digital like the Sharp come out with a 10K hour bulb that costs $1K USD, then we might have a different story.


BAsed on the relatively low markup of the initial digital projector purchase that both the manufacturer and the reseller make, I can't see a cheap long life bulb happening soon.


Should the time comes that a 9500LC sells for under $5K, then there's no money to be made on CRT's, and I'll only be repairing PC boards and I'll stop selling refurb CRT's. I believe that will happen in about 4-5 years. I'll be repairing these sets and boards for maybe another 10 years or so.


Based on what I saw yesterday, the DLP is very impressive. Will I ever sell used DLP's with the quality of the 11K? I doubt it, as I still think the life span of a digital is


----------



## HoustonHoyaFan

Guy, Darin, Steve

what was the measured ANSI CR of the G70?


----------



## WanMan

Curt, I am a little anxious to see how MP's HTPC will perform.


----------



## Chuchuf

Curt,


Nice writeup. I am really glad you got to see a well set up G70. I never could understand why in the past you didn't like them. I have set up and calibrated a lot of XG's and G70 and they both throw a very nice, but a bit different picture.

I think it's interesting that Steve PJ already had almost 3K hrs on the tubes. While I don't think this is a problem, guy mentioned somewhere this past week that about 3K hrs the CRT's start to loose some of their focus. I wonder if Steve re-focused this G70 from the ground up??

Also, did anyone do a color calibration of the G70, was white really D65? was black really black and how about the lower IRE's and gamma. Was any of this measured on the G70??

Curt, I am a bit like you in my analogy of Digital vs CRT. To each his own. For me the smoothness of the CRT and depth of field (especially if you get the gray scale right) produce a more pleasing picture to me. It's kind of like looking out a window as opposed to looking at the same scene as a picture on the wall.

I think that Guy has now seen that the quality of the source make a pretty big difference. Technology has coming screaming at us with the HTPC and some of the newer low end scalers. Heck for scaling DVD playback I think that a Lumagen would give the 3000 in sone regards a run for the money.


Terry


----------



## Ohlson

Chuchuf

3-4 generations then the G90 might lose the crown. The question is how long is a generation, 80 years or 80 days.


The biggest hope to shorten this time is dynamic range expansion. It is not yet clear how Eclipse works , but it does somehow. An sx21 was made almost black starting at 800:1. I wonder what happens if you apply this to sxrd at 2000:1?


If this could be implemented well by Sony would they offer it immediatley or would they milk a couple of generations before selling such a product.


----------



## WanMan

Mattias, even if 3-4 generations is all that it takes it'll probably take a couple of more to get them at price points people like me can actually afford them. So, in five years I'll be on the lookout for a decently priced digital projector that can replace my XG--which I'm currently saving.


----------



## Kysersose

Quote:

So throw in the fact that Steve did not buy is low hour G 70 new, it was used, *plus the fact that he can repair the Sony if it fails*, plus the lack of bulb costs, and now you have the reason why CRT is a better bargain than digitals.
One thing Curt, you do realize that with new Digital projectors you don't have to repair them. All new PJ's come with a warranty.

My NEC has a 3 year instacare warranty, it's one of the best around. If there is a problem I'll have a new PJ at my door the next day. I've had to use it once so I know what I'm talking about. (Got a new bulb too!) 

You won't get that with a used CRT.


----------



## WanMan

Umm, I bet NEC is an anomaly in the marketplace.


----------



## Kysersose

I believe that Infocus has quite a good warranty as well. I really only have first hand experience with NEC though.


----------



## Curt Palme

A few more points that I thought of:


1) I have to be careful how I word this, but from the few


----------



## Jerry Pease

great reading guys, thanks for the ride.


----------



## mp20748

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kysersose_
*


My NEC has a 3 year instacare warranty, it's one of the best around. If there is a problem I'll have a new PJ at my door the next day. I've had to use it once so I know what I'm talking about. (Got a new bulb too!) 

You won't get that with a used CRT.*
And neither will you get it with A used digital. Fact is, after the 3 years warrantee is up, so is the projector..... used value wiht no warrantee, none.


----------



## Steve Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by Chuchuf_
*Curt,


I think it's interesting that Steve PJ already had almost 3K hrs on the tubes. While I don't think this is a problem, guy mentioned somewhere this past week that about 3K hrs the CRT's start to loose some of their focus. I wonder if Steve re-focused this G70 from the ground up??

Also, did anyone do a color calibration of the G70, was white really D65? was black really black and how about the lower IRE's and gamma. Was any of this measured on the G70??


Terry*
I spent several hours going over the G70 including a complete refocus and gray scale calibration. White was spot on D65. Black level was also calibrated with Avia before we began. There was more light pollution than normal in the room. At one point I suspected the black level was screwed up so I did the shadow puppet test and waved my hand across the lenses. No shadows were present which led me to believe the light was coming from all the laptops and equipment led's. We only measured the primary/secondary colors on the G70. There were plans to make more measurements but we got distracted doing some other things.


----------



## Chuchuf

Seeing ANY pixels is to much IMO.

Mattias, I am very curious as well about what Tom is doing to help the blacks and CR out on the LCOS technology. I have heard some very mixed reviews of what was demonstrated at CES. Yes the room went black during all black scene's but how was the ANSI CR??

My guess is that he is modulating the light path somehow with the same video info that is being sent to the LCOS. Could he be monulating the bulbs intensity......I really don't think that would work. Or could he put something (like an LCD panel since it passes the light through) in the light path right before crystals. Who knows??


Terry


----------



## QQQ

Enjoyable read and a good comparison. Thanks to everyone that participated.


----------



## Raul GS

Quote:

_Originally posted by Curt Palme_

1) I have to be careful how I word this, but from the few


----------



## RobertWood

There's one thing that's for sure. If they ever do build a perfect video projector which has everything.

We'll all be on it like a bum on a baloney sandwich.


----------



## WanMan

Robert, I cannot believe you posted that from the other thread. LOL


----------



## RobertWood

It's called plagiarism.


----------



## Kysersose

Quote:

My point about the longevity extends past the warranty period though. What happens in 5 years, and what price are you paying to repair a digital at that point, or are you just replacing?
I would say that most people are replacing.

Even CRT guys are looking to go from 7" to 8" to 9" to LC etc...

It is a hobby after all. 


I get your point though.


One thing, there are some things that I enjoy from my 240K image over CRT. They really are two different images. I prefer a much sharper image, no convergence problems and even focus across the entire image. I also like the "punch" that I get from my 240K.


For what it's worth... if I had the money I would do what some people already have... own both. (CRT & DLP)


----------



## RobertWood

No money needed. AmPro been velly velly good to those what aint got no money.  (please, no wisecracks)


----------



## budiman

A hearty thanks to all the people involved in this shootout; pat yourselves on the back guys: Guy, Darin, Steve, ChrisWiggles, and Curt (and the unnamed newbie).


This is one of the most informative thread I've read in awhile - even with all the different opinions, and how people slice the information, it is a damn good read and unbelieveable effort by the people involved. My gratefulness to all the people involved, especially the host (Steve) and Darin for wanting to compare his Sharp DLP, since we learn a lot from this event.


Different people have different needs, and Curt's post hits closer with my enthusiasm for this hobby. than others I have my 1272 since 1999, a good 5 years, even though it is only used heavily for about 3 years (due to moving, not enough space, etc. etc.). I spent a good $2100 for it, and has since added a good 2200 hours on it. It should still have a good 6000 hours of life left in it, which I plan to exhaust in the next 4-5 years. By then, hopefully I can spend another $3K for something that will last 8-10 years.


There are people that upgrade and push the edge of the envelope all the time - unfortunately, I'm limited in my resources, and as such CRT is my better outlet, than digital. But it is interesting to learn, that digital is catching up and given the scale of economics, my next purchase might be a digital .


Ah, such a good read - thanks again guys.


----------



## Deja Vu

Interesting that nobody is dismissing digital on this forum anymore! Wasn't long ago that digital was completely dismissed here no matter what the price - now price has become relevant. It won't be long when 2K digital pjs will match or better the Sharp! As far as bulb life is concerned there are lots of 3,000 hour to 6,000 hour blulbs out there in digitals - this is not the issue it is being made out to be.


Any pixel seen is one too many! What about scan lines or other problems incorrectly calibrated CRTs display. Moving back sure helps with pixel visibility and an anamorphic lens helps as well. People here a grasping at straws to find fault with digital. If you fear that the day of digital (PQ) is descending too quickly then you really do have something to be afraid of. The emphasis has now changed from totally dismissing digital to complaining that's it is too expensive. Remember that it is digial that has killed the resale value of CRTs and that is what allows you to pruchase them soooo cheap. You have a stake in digital being successful!!


I just purchased a 65 inch CRT RPTV because it still has, IMO, the best PQ in RPTVs; however, both LCD and DLP are nipping at its heels with massive improvements from year to year - probably in two or three years the choice will be easy and I'll go for that relatively light weight digital with the small footprint that will do that "fade to black" with ease.


This battle reminds me of Canada v. Russia in hockey back in the 1960s. We always used the excuse that Russia could only beat us because we couldn't use our best because they were were in the NHL and couldn't play. In 1972 our best went against their best and we pulled it out only at the last second (literally). That ended our superiority complex when it came to hockey - it was no more a Canadian birthright. PQ is not the birthright of CRT and this will become more evident as time goes on.


IMO the best CRTs have the best PQ, but this won't be the case for much longer. Not only will digital surpass CRT, but it will continue to surpass itself.


Cheers,


Grant


----------



## WanMan

Grant, price is only a consideration when something is considered. I do not think the Under $3500 forum's products are even considered in the race. Now, if you want to compare $2K digital projectors please just inform us (if we're still alive) when you think something comes up and is worthy to compete against either Guy's XG135LC or Steve G70.


----------



## Raul GS

Quote:

_Originally posted by WanMan_
*Now, if you want to compare $2K digital projectors please just inform us (if we're still alive) when you think something comes up and is worthy to compete against either Guy's XG135LC or Steve G70. *
Considering how much the rate of improvement and pricing drop in DLPs resembles the PC market, it would not be that surprising to see a DLP type product competing with the quality of a Sharp 11K/12K within 3 years at the $2-3K price range.


R.


----------



## fulabeer

Thanks guys, great reading.


I agree that this comparison was also very fair.

Slightly different results, but we all have different rooms so each review will be different anyway!


I think ChrisWiggles was spot on with his observations of the 11K, and not just being fussy.(or biased)

If he saw artifacts, then they exist!

If this comparison was for the benefit of better video, people need to know the facts, good or bad.

I too see the things Chris saw, but i have finally manage to watch from just two feet further back and it does make a real difference.

The Marantz might be even worse with artifacts, as it has custom Minolta optics.(no fringing/very clear)

But like any quality product, it can be great with good sources and merciless with poor ones.

We have to be careful that flaws noticed are no just a projectors ability to show them. (Cine9/G90 owners know all about this!)

I am having slight banding issues with DVI from my HTPC(to a Marantz S3 DLP), but i believe they are driver issues as another member"tbar" has managed to cure them with a Matrox VGA card. The same banding isn't there via my DVD player through DVI or via normal RGBHV.


The black issue with digitals is a least 6 months away from being sorted, but in the meantime rainbow can be eradicated with the latest 3 chip DLPs.

I have seen the SimHT500, and i can promise anybody who can afford one that it is a leap forward from my S3.

Being 3 chip also reduces the SDE, but i hope this doesn't then introduce uniformity/convergence issues.

My biggest impression of 3 chip DLP was 3Dness, and vibrancy. It was also brighter but this was at the expense of black level.


Did Darin try the 11K at a brighter setting?

I know this would have impacted black level, but i have found the extra punch is a fair trade with some material.



Quote:

_Originally posted by Curt Palme_
*

1) There is no one winner. To a newbie that is used to seeing dead CRT's in a sports bar, or maybe owns a Sony 10XX series or a video only Zenith, the G 70 with an HTPC is unbelievable. To someone like me, I was blown away by the DLP.

Curt*
I said at the start of this thread there would be no winners.

Even though CRT has shown better here, the simple fact that digital has progressed to this level is a feat in itself.


Curt, for somebody who's actual living could be impacted by this type review, i think you have been very honest and fair handed.

The temptation to just rubbish the DLP would have been too much for some in the CRT sellling business.

So "thank you".

I too have seen rainbows, but rarely during actual viewing. But i am surprised you thought the image pixelated. I have found any pixelation on my DLP to be in the source, and the DLPs ability to show it.

If pixelation wasn't present on HD feeds, then it wasn't due to the fixed panel etc.

Seeing pixels on the projectors menus(depending on make), or pixelation in windows panels may not be actual SDE as i see the same squares on my Barco 808s CRT.


I have "leaped" back to digital earlier than some here.

I did it for reasons other than quality.

My room is multimedia rather than just cinema and i wanted sharper images to use when browsing the web etc.

I wanted the option of using the projector with some lights on. The Marantz can go much brighter than any CRT i have seen.


I also noticed i was using the CRT less and less, as the optimum warm up time was preventing me from impulsively using the room.

So i bought the DLP thinking i was having to give up a load of quality. As it turned out, i feel apart from total black level i have a better image than the Barco 808s was capable of. And yes i do realise that although the Barco 808s is fine, it isn't the best 8" out there.


Another issue i feel i can know mention(due to CRT getting a good show here!) is tweaking fatigue.(i didn't want stir up trouble, when CRT tensions where running high etc)

I was getting caught in the constant tweak, zero film watching trap. Yes i did see some films, but never all the way through!

I even gave up on the HTPC which has done so well last night. The reason being that every change in resolution or refresh rate needed a full recalibration on the CRT. I also noticed that saturation/brightness changed with each refresh-rate/resolution change. It was explained to me this was due to the way CRTs work. Ie more lines mean more brightness, and different refresh rates means the phosphor has more/less time with the beam scanning across it.

All this meant to me is a different picture depending on what combination i chose. Maybe if i had the right calibration equipment this wouldn't have been a problem etc.

With the S3, the image stays the same brightness/saturation regardless of refresh-rate/resolution.

This has me going back to the HTPC via DVI, to see what 48hz looks like with zero flicker.


But getting back to the main point is that i built my home cinema to watch films.

Not having to mess with the Marantz S3 has allowed me to do this.

I'm on one film a night at the moment, and this has been going on for three months!

Yes i have compromised in some areas, but no i didn't make a mistake.

I'm happy, and if you own a good CRT "Stay happy"! 


I think this year may be the year of the shootout!


----------



## CaspianM

Thank to every involved party in this event. The read was very interesting and effort was phenomenal.


----------



## Frank

I am curious about the focus of the Sharp. I read that it was defocused somewhat and still noticably sharper then the G70. What if it had been defocused until the sharpness was similiar to the CRT? Would the image have been just as "smooth"?


Frank


----------



## Art Sonneborn

Quote:

_Originally posted by Ohlson_
*Chuchuf

3-4 generations then the G90 might lose the crown. The question is how long is a generation, 80 years or 80 days.


The biggest hope to shorten this time is dynamic range expansion. It is not yet clear how Eclipse works , but it does somehow. An sx21 was made almost black starting at 800:1. I wonder what happens if you apply this to sxrd at 2000:1?


If this could be implemented well by Sony would they offer it immediatley or would they milk a couple of generations before selling such a product.*
Wouldn't that be the truth. Perhaps in a year that device or another like it will exist. No rainbows, no pixels at even absurdly close range like I sit, blacks and contrast which will do justice to any film. This would be the ultimate type at least based on what we know now. This would be the leap and not the increment.


Art


----------



## Mercer

What I think is a bit funny is how this forum seems to think that there is a certain "minimum" criteria for a projector to even be in the running. I myself am a "proud" owner of the Sony HS-20 LCD champion, and I'm quite happy with the picture it produces. Sure, it can't come close to getting perfect black cut-off, but it's got a very nice and smooth image with plenty of resultion and brightness. It's colors are very good out-of-the box, and can be adjusted to perfection with a bit of expertise.


My friend has got a BarcoGraphics 808s, and the difference in picture quality is more a matter of taste, than a real night-and-day difference. We did our own shoot-out between the two, and had quite some fun doing it. The major problem was that the HS-20 was so much brighter in his setup, hence we couldn't do a fair A/B comparision.


Regards,

Tore K.


----------



## dawziecat

Quote:

_Originally posted by WanMan_
*Grant, price is only a consideration when something is considered. I do not think the Under $3500 forum's products are even considered in the race. Now, if you want to compare $2K digital projectors please just inform us (if we're still alive) when you think something comes up and is worthy to compete against either Guy's XG135LC or Steve G70. *
Just curiosity but have you seen a Z2 picture?


Just a question . . . no intent to wage war on the matter.


----------



## GScott

Quote:

_Originally posted by dawziecat_
*Just curiosity but have you seen a Z2 picture?


Just a question . . . no intent to wage war on the matter.*
Yes I have and I have a Z1 here currently. Sorry but Wanman is correct.


----------



## WanMan

Tore, if there wasn't a minimum then some would complain about it being unfair. I mean, wouldn't you think that a $999 X1 would be unfairly compared with against something like a heavily modified 9500LC or a G90? I certainly could not consider the proposed comparison of the X1 to either of these projectors to be of any relavent contribution.


If you feel that the 9500LC or G90 and the least expensive new digitals are not in different playing fields then there probably would be a comparison.


----------



## dawziecat

Quote:

_Originally posted by GScott_
*Sorry but Wanman is correct.*
No need to apologize. I can take the truth.


My experience with a CRT FPTV goes back about 8 years. I had a Runco 750T "Video Grade" unit.


Memory is a tricky thing but my Z2 seems to put out a better picture with DVDs than I recall the 750T did with LDs.


Still, I remain curious as to how the Z2 would fare against a high end CRT set up. Don't suppose I'll ever see though.


----------



## noah katz

Guy, Darin, Steve, Chris, Curt,


Thanks so very much for your efforts and thoughts. It doesn't get any better than this so interesting, informative and insightful. I especially appreciate how you communicated your subjective impressions, yet were unbiased.


----------



## Mercer

Quote:

_Originally posted by WanMan_
*Tore, if there wasn't a minimum then some would complain about it being unfair. I mean, wouldn't you think that a $999 X1 would be unfairly compared with against something like a heavily modified 9500LC or a G90? I certainly could not consider the proposed comparison of the X1 to either of these projectors to be of any relavent contribution.


If you feel that the 9500LC or G90 and the least expensive new digitals are not in different playing fields then there probably would be a comparison.*
I'm not talking about the low-end products, I'm talking about the HighEnd LCD projector, that is Sony HS-20. I for one would think it would be an interesting comparision to see how the best of LCD and DLP compares against a "regular" CRT. The HS-20 is in the used Barco 808s priceclass, and from what I've seen the LCD is quite capable of throwing a better image in many areas compared to the 808s.


Regards,

Tore K.


----------



## fulabeer

Art,

No disrespect, but viewing from a close distance isn't just down to the projector.

DVD has limiting factors in resolution + Mpeg artifacts.

HD is much better, but again depends on the quality of transfer.

Even true film suffers up close etc.

This added to the effect too larger screen can have on head and eye fatigue.


I have followed your quest for the ultimate setup. And you deserve a big thumbs up!

I wouldn't hesitate in following your lead if room size and finances allowed.

I have to agree that your choice of projector was spot-on.


Screen size can have a big impact on the cinema experience, but seeing things like film grain doesn't do anything for me, except to confirm i'm at least seeing all the detail on offer.


1920x1080 digital projectors may allow closer viewing, or a larger screen size.

But viewing material still remains a limiting factor etc. 


(nevermind the quality, feel the width?)


----------



## MYoung

Quote:

_Originally posted by Deja Vu_
*Interesting that nobody is dismissing digital on this forum anymore!*
I'm still going to dismiss the digitals on the blue collar end of display, regardless of what the results are here (though I'm still skeptical to digital having bested CRT yet). A $500 7" data-grade CRT projector for home theater applications still bests digital's budget offerings even at twice the cost in several image aesthetic departments. The high-end is being argued here, but the low end for the capable and willing folks is still going to be a gold mine as far as used CRT FPTV is concerned for quite a while to come. Just my humble opinion. Happy A/Bing guys!


----------



## Ohlson

Has anyone tried showing and comparing high quality digital photos on both a crt and a dlp.


1 Take a photo with a high quality digital camera

2 Store it uncompressed and do just a save to the desired resolution

3 compare the picture


This way should avoid the source influencing this. The source is better than the projectors. There might be a lot of head room with current digital and crt projectors with improved source material.


----------



## WanMan

Mattias, you are talking about on an HTPC, right? How would this be different than just using a test pattern from one of tha Avia Pro disks?


BTW, I just thought of a question for Steve and his HTPC:


Was the DVI connector treated as a second monitor? If so, was the DVI and VGA connectors switched back and forth as the primary monitor? Something in the back of my head tells me about the second monitor lacking some features through Windows.


----------



## HEAT

..WELL I USED TO WATCH LOTS OF MOVIES EVERY NIGHT-THEN I DISCOVERED WOMEN..SO WATCH AT THE WEEKEND NOW! 


Ive changed my mind im gonna be like Fullabeer from now on-hes a great example,im gonna be `ever so `umble and agree with everything as long as i can ingratiate myself and be able to join all the village peoples knees ups!   


..So here goes....Everything is beautiful in its own way(..sounds familiar?)-everythings fair...all the shootout in the future are going to be fair too-why write threads asking if they are fair-you know they are-dont say they are not...This shootouts fair as well...NOBODY dare say nothing..the Sharp 11-or is it 12 is soooo good...the G70`S...sooooo good ..nothing to chose between either of `em....be careful...stay on that fence....im trying......

-------------------

--------------------------ahhh ive fell off........I cant do it....i cant live in a world where everythings as good as each other...and everybodys the same..and everybody wont say anything to offend unless they are not invited to the next knees up...where politically correctness reduces us to all having the sam view-and nver deviating too far...


...PPPPPPPPhhhhewwwwww ..It was a dream a horrible nightmare ,i was in this room and there were 10 projectors from different manufacturers and they all looked different but no-one was allowed to say so-one guy disagreed with the criteria in the comparison-he was thrown out of the PROJECTOR EQUALITY party and ostracised by not being invited anywhere..



HERE GOES...IM GONNA OFFEND HERE...the first comparison was flawed albeit in a nice way..the second comparison was good -but no real conclusion...a lot of manager double speak-but no real conclusion(..thats why i had to draw my own..)-because everyone was too polite to say THE G70 KICKED ITS A**E!!!


...COME ON say it...the Projector police wont arrest you....


Ahhh,oh for the passion and verve and vigour of yesteryears crt enthusiast-where are they?


Theyve been replaced by civil servants it seems ...still,if you cant beat `em ..join `em....


It was all good...it was not flawed ...there was no winner...they all have their strengths..they all have their weakness`s...it was close...


..........Give me strength..


----------



## luke_3891

i know everyone will disagree with me here but the Z2 i believe holds up well, but of course the complete darks scenes wont be good as a CRT.


well do a comparison soon with a Z2 up against an NEC 6PG. no where near what these guys do but just see how well the Z2 in general goes up against the CRT. i think many CRT will be overall pleased when seeing the Z2 against the CRT. the only complaint from the CRT guys will be the blacks in completely dark scenes, apart from that, id say they will be happy with the performance. im looking forward to what they think about it.


like ive said before, a few CRT guys on here have changed to a Z2 and are quite happy it seems. i have seen the Z2 and think it does well enough to change for convienence.


Quote:

_Originally posted by dawziecat_
*No need to apologize. I can take the truth.


My experience with a CRT FPTV goes back about 8 years. I had a Runco 750T "Video Grade" unit.


Memory is a tricky thing but my Z2 seems to put out a better picture with DVDs than I recall the 750T did with LDs.


Still, I remain curious as to how the Z2 would fare against a high end CRT set up. Don't suppose I'll ever see though.*


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by Curt Palme_
*I believe Darin is on his 8th digital in about 5 years.*
Actually, I didn't know anything about projecters until about 19 months ago. Counting what I own now I've had 9 digitals and one CRT.


At this point I consider it research for a new career. I would like to see these projectors get better and tomorrow I plan on talking to my bosses about leaving my current position working on software on a small ultrasound machine (medical). My most likely path will be to go work for Immersive. I believe that my background in software and working with hardware engineers combined with the knowledge I've gained on this site and doing testing at home as well as at these shootouts will help me to contribute toward the advancement of home theater. I hope that the people from here who have decided to invest in Immersive recently will be happy if I become part of the permanent team.


I don't know if everybody here realizes it, but the contributions from people here do have an effect on improvements to home theater, even if they aren't direct. Without some of the picky eyes manufacturers could sit on their laurels. I believe that these shootouts and the discussions help pinpoint areas that have room for improvement.
Quote:

*

I asked Darin what he will dop if the trend continues to discontinue bulbs for a typical digital after 5 years, and he laughed and said that he didn't expect to keep the 11K for more than 2-3 years.
*
Actually, it will probably be more like 2-3 months, but I don't know what I'll have next.
Quote:

*

Again, I think he's the exception rather than the rule, and sure, I'm jealous!.*
I know I am the exception. I have been fortunate to be able to do this. I went without toys for years while I struggled to buy a house, etc., but I'm definitely taking advantage of the payoff now.


BTW: Thanks for calling it like you see it. I know I appreciate it.
Quote:

_Originally posted by Kysersose_
*All new PJ's come with a warranty.

My NEC has a 3 year instacare warranty, it's one of the best around.*
Just so people are clear, the LT240 is a business projector and next day replacement warranties are common in the business market. That is what it takes to compete. While warranties are nice for HT projectors, they don't tend to be nearly as good. Just different markets and different requirements.


As far as the difficulties mentioned it setting up the 11k, I think people are taking this too far. The HTPC thing was my fault as I just forgot the main part of the PC. I didn't realize my brother was bringing my nephew over to my house when he came over to watch the Daytona 500 and things got fairly hectic as I had to get him setup to play XBox games while I was also trying to get ready for the shootout and get everything out the door. There is a simple reason that it was difficult to get the 11k synced up with Steve's PC and that is that his CRT can support higher resolutions than 60 Hz (which I definitely think is an advantage of the CRT) and he was running a custom 1280x720. This meant that we had to add a resolution with Powerstrip that had the same pixel count as his main one, but a different refresh rate and also try not to mess up his settings. Here is what is required for somebody who wants to connect an 11k/12k to an HTPC at 1280x720 60Hz over DVI.


1. Set the projector to PC input type (not video).

2. Go into Powerstrip and select the already predefined 1280x720 resolution.

3. Select that resolution on the desktop display.

4. Reboot and disconnect other video sources (may or may not be necessary).


We had some special circumstances here and I don't think any of us realized that we would have to disconnect the other video source in this case (I don't have to on mine when using an LCD monitor as the DVI takes precedence).


As far as calibration, yes it can take a long time if you want to get it right. Before I left Guy's house after the first shootout we had adjusted the primaries, secondaries, hue, and saturation some for the V880. However, we then watched some material and adjusted the hue by eye. When I got there yesterday we looked at the primaries and the red was off. After quite a bit of fiddling around we found that the hue setting we had changed by eye had thrown off the red primary. Guy was surprised by this and I didn't know enough to be surprised. 


I had adjusted the V880 in the past to where I was very happy with the colors, shadow detail, etc. However, to tell you the truth the component input looked good enough to me from a color standpoint that although I knew I could make it better, when it came time to either calibrate it or watch a movie, I always chose to just go watch something. Most of what I watch from component is HD or regular TV anyway. The PQ of the regular TV doesn't matter that much as it looks better than I expect and the HD looked good enough to me to just enjoy the projector.


I am a little disappointed that some seem so willing to just accept that the CRT has better depth without defining the parameters. Did the Faroudja 3000 take away some of the depth in the last shootout? I think it did for me. Did the white walls and white screen take away some of the depth from the 11k (and the CRT) yesterday? From thinking about this some more I am convinced that it did. As I and others have posted multiple times on other forums, the Firehawk tends to show more depth than these white screens and especially in a light colored room (the Firehawk helps hold ANSI CR). Steve's screen is a good match for his setup, but if I were advising somebody with a similar room who was going to get an 11k/12k I would suggest the Firehawk for many of them and the High Power for those who want more brightness and are willing to tradeoff some of the depth.


Also, are we talking about more depth on the CRT with DVDs, HD, anamorphic lens on the 11k or not, from what viewing distance, etc.? I know I'm the exception with probably 200 tapes of HD material, so DVD seems to still be more important than HD to many people. Also, I believe I measured 11' viewing distance for Chris to an 8' wide screen (somebody can correct me if I am wrong). That is 1.38. We have mentioned before that anything inside 1.4x was too close and I was recommending about 1.5x. However, I'm going to revise that for Chris and others with eagle eyes. I think a lot of people would be happy at 1.5x, but if you notice anamolies more than most people you may have to move back a little bit to be happy. Especially with DVD.


I am hoping that some of the people from yesterday will agree to come see the 11k on my Firehawk screen in my very dark room. Some of the issues mentioned yesterday were things I have mentioned in the past as being improved with the Firehawk to my eyes and I would like to see what some of the other participants think. I know we can't do this with a CRT, but if we could do it soon maybe the images from Steve's place will still be fresh enough in people's minds. And this would be the first time the 11k would be shown on a screen of my choosing.  And I could set up my HTPC with the anamorphic lens this time.


--Darin


----------



## QQQ

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*My most likely path will be to go work for Immersive.*
Does that mean there's no truth to the rumor you are going to work for MAXX?


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by QQQ_
*Does that mean there's no truth to the rumor you are going to work for MAXX?*
Aren't they out of business yet? 


--Darin


----------



## RobertWood

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_

Actually, I didn't know anything about projecters until about 19 months ago. Counting what I own now I've had 9 digitals and one CRT.

Well I'll be a bum on a baloney sandwich. Now that's a lot of projectors.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by RobertWood_
*Well I'll be a bum on a baloney sandwich. Now that's a lot of projectors.*
Oops. Forgot one. I had an LC75u that I used for less than an hour when I decided I couldn't trade the images on my M20x for those on that one even if I did see a few rainbows. That one didn't cost me anything to own, just as the G20 I bought on ebay with a problem and I turned around and sold didn't cost me anything because I got a partial refund from the seller for the problem. A couple others didn't cost me anything, either. The 10k cost me a little bit since I bought it used and sold it to a friend later. The X1 probably cost me $100 to own counting shipping.


--Darin


----------



## RVonse

I finally read through this lengthy thread and I thought it was a great read.


I really did not expect the G70 to make such a good showing after what happened to the XG in the last shootout. Just a couple thoughts that have come to my mind:


1. Guy, Darin, Steve, Chris, Curt appeared to make honest, intelligent and very worthwhile comments. They certainly did a better job then I could have.


2. Despite making a lot of people angry, HEAT was much more correct than wrong on the last shootout. You do have to give him credit for his knowlegde of projectors. And he is also absolutely correct that a 1272 does infact have a bigger tubes than a G70 so I would have to believe him when he thinks it would probably be a close match.


3. Guy's NEC must either be broken or the NEC XG reputation is way over bloated on this forum. Theres just no other logical conclusion any honest person can make from the findings. I use a HTPC and love it, but this surely can't be the whole reason for such a bad showing.


4. We appeared to have come full circle now. It used to be that you associated small screens and perfectly black theater walls with the crt crowd. Now these appear to be more important requirements for digital DLP projectors.


----------



## RobertWood

Doesn't a 1272 use O7's? I have 07's in several of my AmPros and I could have sworn my 8" tubes are bigger. I'm half sick with the flu and before I go to the back of the house to look can anyone give the straight poop on that?


----------



## RVonse

Quote:

_Originally posted by RobertWood_
*Doesn't a 1272 use O7's? I have 07's in several of my AmPros and I could have sworn my 8" tubes are bigger. I'm half sick with the flu and before I go to the back of the house to look can anyone give the straight poop on that?*
Yes it uses 07's. Your AmPro probably uses a tube very close to the 180DMB22 (which is in the Marquee 8000). The 180DMB22 is about 1/2" smaller when measured from corner to corner.


I know this for a fact because I have measured both of these tubes with a tape measure.


----------



## RobertWood

My 8" AmPros use Panasonic tubes. Are you saying that Sony's tubes which they describe as 8 inch are actually smaller than the 07's?


----------



## mikecazzx

Quote:

_Originally posted by RVonse_
*I finally read through this lengthy thread and I thought it was a great read.


I really did not expect the G70 to make such a good showing after what happened to the XG in the last shootout. Just a couple thoughts that have come to my mind:


1. Guy, Darin, Steve, Chris, Curt appeared to make honest, intelligent and very worthwhile comments. They certainly did a better job then I could have.


2. Despite making a lot of people angry, HEAT was much more correct than wrong on the last shootout. You do have to give him credit for his knowlegde of projectors. And he is also absolutely correct that a 1272 does infact have a bigger tubes than a G70 so I would have to believe him when he thinks it would probably be a close match.


3. Guy's NEC must either be broken or the NEC XG reputation is way over bloated on this forum. Theres just no other logical conclusion any honest person can make from the findings. I use a HTPC and love it, but this surely can't be the whole reason for such a bad showing.


4. We appeared to have come full circle now. It used to be that you associated small screens and perfectly black theater walls with the crt crowd. Now these appear to be more important requirements for digital DLP projectors.*
I certinaly think the $7500 -$10000 and up DLP's are "getting there" but other than a softer image a CRT can be just plain "more pleasing" to the eye.


Although I do enjoy the sharpness of a DLP machine I always feel like I am watching a computer.


To use the professional audio analogy - our brains can perceive high frequency info even when our ears cant - it has been proven on sources like mini cd and the sub standard compressed dat cassette that the missing information can be perceived.


I dont know if that makes sense - but ya just somehow "know" its digitized even when you can readily see it. This is aside from the obvious artifacts.


When I saw a lower end DLP I noticed that films like the opening of Matrix Reloaded were spectacular but Nemo was jagged and artifacting on its edges. Just an example recently.


----------



## RVonse

Quote:

_Originally posted by RobertWood_
*My 8" AmPros use Panasonic tubes. Are you saying that Sony's tubes which they describe as 8 inch are actually smaller than the 07's?*
Yes. Give me a couple of minutes and I will find the actual photographs of the tubes and post them.


----------



## RobertWood

Pics not necessary. I believe you. I just wasn't clear about what you were saying. I would be interested to know what the diagonal measurement of the 8" tube face is though to compare that to the ones I'm using. I'm rather surprised to learn that tubes even smaller than 07's are responsible for the picture last night that was described as being so bright.


----------



## RVonse

Quote:

_Originally posted by RVonse_
*Yes. Give me a couple of minutes and I will find the actual photographs of the tubes and post them.*
Here is a picture of an 07 tube. From the photo it looks like it measures about 6-1/4".


----------



## RVonse

Quote:

_Originally posted by RobertWood_
*Pics not necessary. I believe you. I just wasn't clear about what you were saying. I would be interested to know what the diagonal measurement of the 8" tube face is though to compare that to the ones I'm using. I'm rather surprised to learn that tubes even smaller than 07's are responsible for the picture last night that was described as being so bright.*
This is a 180DVB22 which I think is the one in your Ampro. It measures about 5-3/4". The G70 tube is very close to this I believe.


----------



## RobertWood

If the G70 is making as bright a picture as they were describing last night. And doing it with little bitty old tubes. Then it must be driving em pretty durn hard.

Yall laugh at my AmPros, but the more I learn about the competition the more respect I have for my projectors.


----------



## RobertWood

Of course, I aint measured those either. So for all I know the 8" Panasonics aint no bigger. Maybe it's like 2x4's. Like those are not actually 2" by 4", maybe there's no such thing as an 8" projection tube.


----------



## RVonse

Quote:

_Originally posted by RobertWood_
*Of course, I aint measured those either. So for all I know the 8" Panasonics aint no bigger. Maybe it's like 2x4's. Like those are not actually 2" by 4", maybe there's no such thing as an 8" projection tube.*
The specs are so inflated they are worthless. Might just as well not even pay attention to them at all. I have never seen a tube out of Barco's 12"er but maybe it would be around 8" or so if you measured it.


----------



## Mark_A_W

Yep 7", 8", 9" is a class rather than an actual physical measurement.


I think the tube faces in a 12xx are the same size or bigger than an XG, but there aint no way a 12xx is an 8" projector - coz it hasn't got EM focus.


It's about ability rather than real size, that said the tubes in a 1292 are frickin huge.


----------



## HoustonHoyaFan

Darinp2

From reading Guyâ€™s summary, he seems to be certain that the difference was due to


â€œThe room's higher reflectivity took away nearly half of the DLP's advantage in handling higher APL scenes. Optical scatter for the DLP was raised by the room so that meant its superior clarity effect was diminished in moderately dark to medium scenes. It still was visibly less foggy in the brighter scenes, but the room took away the depth advantage it enjoyed in my black roomâ€

Of course the only way to be sure is to do another comparison at Guyâ€™s, but this time use a HTPC! The change in the Sharpâ€™s ANSI CR from 670 in Guyâ€™s Black room to 360 in Steveâ€™s room may well be the most important difference.


Rvonse

The Sony G70 tubes are listed as 8â€, same tubes as the XG135. The 1272 is listed as 7+â€, the D50 is listed as 5.5â€. The G70 is LC, color corrected, and EM focused. It is almost twice as bright as a 1272! Despite Heatâ€™s silliness, a 1272 to G70 comparison would not be as close as Sundayâ€™s Sharp 11K to G70. When I bought my D50 in â€™97 I did an A to B with a 1272 on the same screen, I got the D50!


A lot of conventional wisdom, G70 is poor, digitals are poor, got shattered in the last week.


----------



## xamphear

Quote:

_Originally posted by dawziecat_
*Just curiosity but have you seen a Z2 picture?


Just a question . . . no intent to wage war on the matter.*
In my HT right now I have a G70 and a Z1 (I know, not quite a Z2, but let's not split hairs) both set up pointing at a matte white 1-gain screen. I'm still learning the ropes of my CRT and its green tube is a little worn, but even just getting it roughly focused and converged my first thoughts were that I could simply see details using the CRT that were just NOT THERE using digital. Does the digital have some benefits, like more brightness and pseudo-sharpness? Yep. But when I get the CRT set up correctly, more like a professional, or have one do it, I fully expect it to blow the pants off of my Z1. So much so, in fact, that I've already agreed to sell it to a friend, once I get the green tube replaced and don't need to use it as my "backup projector" any more.


My 2 cents: I look forward to the day that a


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan_
*Of course the only way to be sure is to do another comparison at Guyâ€™s, but this time use a HTPC.*
I don't think we need to do this comparison again. My room is a little darker than Guy's and I have a Firehawk. So, the plan is to have the other guys see this in its natural habitat just as we have seen the other two in their natural habitats.


--Darin


----------



## darinp2

I just remembered something that was discussed at the shootout, but I don't remember if it was posted here. I don't think either the XG or the G70 were stock. They both had filtered red tubes. Does anybody know how much those add to the cost/effort? Do most CRT owners here have filtered red tubes? I'm just not sure how common this is and whether it is the norm or the exception.


--Darin


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Darin, these both have color filtered lenses. You don't need to add filters to these if they have the lenses on them. So nice try, but they were stock.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

AT least I think they have color filtered lenses. Or the tubes have the correct color so they needn'tbe filtered, unlike the MEC tubes. Crap, can't remember. Regardless, they shouldn't need to be modified.


----------



## Mercer

Quote:

_Originally posted by xamphear_
*In my HT right now I have a G70 and a Z1 (I know, not quite a Z2, but let's not split hairs) both set up pointing at a matte white 1-gain screen.*
PLEASE! Hairs? It's a much bigger difference between a Z1 and a Z2. We're talking about a 964x544(0.5mpixel) vs 1280x720(0.92mpixel) difference. Not to mention the 1.1mpixel resolution of the Sony HS-20. There is also the point of chosing a correct screen for the correct projector, and the Z1 is more a grey-screen LCD projector. Of course your going to see more details with a CRT projector that is able to handle much higher resolutions than the Z1, it doesn't magically produce information that isn't there.


Sigh..


Regards,

Tore K.


----------



## Li On

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*Somebody may have already mentioned that there were some lines near the top of the image with the G70 that were noticable with completely black frames. I'm not sure if the gray "black" of the 11k would bother me more or these lines during frames that are meant to be black.
*
It's the AKB line which does a auto color temp adjust. It basically render the Brightness control useless! Turn that off and redo the color temp. Then you get REAL black. NEC XG has this line too and it's OFF by default.


regards,


Li On


----------



## Li On

Quote:

_Originally posted by JeffY_
*TT is better than WinDVD 4 or 5, software mode or not. No problem about that. As for the new NVdia player, we will just have to wait and see, I'll let you know if its better as and when I see it. *
Do you use ffdshow? If not then you haven't seen DVD! If so then TT (Sonic filter) in software mode (with ffdshow) has Chroma Bug, don't say you like the effect!


regards,


Li On


----------



## Li On

Quote:

_Originally posted by Ohlson_
*Has anyone tried showing and comparing high quality digital photos on both a crt and a dlp.


1 Take a photo with a high quality digital camera

2 Store it uncompressed and do just a save to the desired resolution

3 compare the picture


This way should avoid the source influencing this. The source is better than the projectors. There might be a lot of head room with current digital and crt projectors with improved source material.*
4 drag the picture around and enjoy the DLP motion dithering!


Sorry can't resist! 


regards,


Li On


----------



## HEAT

What always amuses me is some of the statements made about me..inflammatory..silly...but then people start saying.:-".hang on hes right...hes got a point..."


I dont profess to be the font of all knowledge-technically im quite weak(..but getting better..)-where i think i am quite good is setting up a projector to get a good picture-the best i can out of it.


Ive been a projector affecionado for 20 years-In that time i have seen/owned a few projectors believe me-what knowledge I have is based on experience-experience in the most part based on either ownership or extensive hours in demo rooms.

When you talk about shootouts,i was doing that years ago!! For my own fun -not to pontificate in a forum.




There are some (..who shall remain nameless..),who have been involved in this hobby for a short time-in that short time they have "crammed" extensively-and thats great...BUT...when those people think they know it all after a few months because they can quote from a specs sheet-to me that doesnt cut it-NOTHING replaces first hand experience.


MY standpoint ALL along is that the 1272 WOULD ice the Sharp-In fact any 7+" crt would,my standpoint was that the G70 was better-it was.

My standpoint is that its pointless pitting it against a 9" -this is also correct im sure youll agree.


Ive seen the Sharp and owned a G70 -so I knew the outcome of that one...I am still passionate about this hobby after 20 years-this isnt a new thing for me,thats why when objectivety is watered down because of political correctness i dont agree-IF you read the G70 and Sharp comparison it reads like a close battle...ITS NOT...UNLESS of course you overlook the pixels,the lack of depth,the lack of blacks,the rainbows,the artificial sharpness and the lower bulb life-then its close-but what does that mean? you have made it close by careful presentation of selected criteria and a bit of diplomacy ?


If Sony dont think the Qualia is as good as the G90 what does that tell you?

Lets cut the c**p here,you want a digital thats close to the best of crt-buy the Qualia-IF you want a dlp thats close to the Qualia buy the Sharp!


This is the reality and this is what it comes down to-the rest is wishful thinking and falsehood.


----------



## HEAT

Heres another thing to consider..ive seen guys spend hours on setup-use the right cables ..the right connections..etc..and the picture still comes out looking like a "dogs dinner"!

I know there is such a thing as having a "feel" for this sort of thing-you can have two guys-one that spends hours and comes out with a fair picture and one that spends 10 minutes and gets a great picture-in my view experience plays a MAJOR part-NOTHING is a substitute for experience.


Ive said before,people are too locked into 6500k to explore the possibilities of 6800-6900k ish which in my opinion whitens up the "cream" just a tad,adds a little more punch and gets a little closer to realism-my view is that with everything we should aim to expand the boudaries of what is accepted-we should aim to better -not stay within -parameters.


The guys that are limited by the specs and the "accepted dogma" are not the innovators to my mind.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

"When you talk about shootouts,i was doing that years ago!! For my own fun -not to pontificate in a forum."


Heat, Perhaps you should do the same now to keep up to date? No doubt even a year ago the DLPs were of no comparison. We weren't comparing a G90, if we had been it would have been a pretty obvious win for the g90. It's much more informative to compare projectors of similar PQ, regardless of price. Tradoffs of similar projectors is the whole point. Throwing up an X1 against a G90 is a waste of everyone's time. When there's a digital that can go up against a G90 I hope someone can do a quality comparison then as well.


Pretend what you like, they were close with all the image tradeoffs taken into account. You focus too much on only the weaknesses of DLP, as if CRT were perfect in every way.


----------



## JeffY

Quote:

_Originally posted by Li On_
*Do you use ffdshow? If not then you haven't seen DVD! If so then TT (Sonic filter) in software mode (with ffdshow) has Chroma Bug, don't say you like the effect!


regards,


Li On*
Sorry Li On, I meant WinDVD in software or hardware mode isn't as good as TT (in hardware mode.) All software only decoders are rubbish, so the starting point for FFDShow is severely compromised.


----------



## Li On

Hi Jeffy,


I take that as you don't use ffdshow. Then I've no further comment!


regards,


Li On


----------



## JeffY

No I don't use FFDShow, my 9" CRT projector shows mpeg artefacts too well  I think Vern has switched back to DXVA, sounds like a good move.


----------



## Rob Dingen

Hi


Thanks for the shootout en the nice repots you al given.

But I have a question about the G70.

When you look at the sharp you all se pixels but when you look at the G70 setup at 1280x720 nobody complaints about scanlines.

I have setup several G70 and tons of Barco 808 and with a good quality CRT you see easy scanlines at 1280x720 at 1.5 screenwide whats the deal here.

I think the CRT could be sharper if you didn't see the scanlines.

Guy Curt Steve and Darin?


Rob


----------



## Guy Kuo

There were visible scan lines if the screen was viewed from several feet. Remember, Steve's tubes are now a little older. They are no longer as sharp as fresh, new tubes. This gets glossed over when talking about CRT. The change is very gradual so you don't notice on your own system. It's most evident when you retube or go set up someone elses's new machine. You notice that the fresh tubes are able to create a sharper edge around the electron spot. As the tubes age, this gradually becomes more gaussian. Steve's are now such that at 720P the scan lines just touch.


At one point Chris was at the screen wondering what those fine wavering faint and evanescent bright and dark horizontal lines were on bright areas during G70 viewing. It was the interline twitter you see due to slight vertical deflection instability of the scan lines. That makes well focused scan lines sometimes closer or farther apart during subsequent scans. You see that as fine, faint horizontal lines which rapidly twitter when you are up close to the screen. At our viewing distance those artifacts were pretty well hidden. Pixellation was a complaint more this time due to the slightly closer viewing distance than last week. I think Chris was the most vocal about it, and was also sitting closest to the screen. It was at his preferred view angle, but in my opinion too close to be supported by and 1280 pixel wide DLP chip. When setting up a system with fixed panel whose elements are so sharply focused, you really need to pay attention to making sure you are far enough away to make the pixels visually blend together. A one or two foot change in viewing distance tremendously alters your perception of pixels vs smoothness.


----------



## Guy Kuo

Quote:

_Originally posted by Li On_
*It's the AKB line which does a auto color temp adjust. It basically render the Brightness control useless! Turn that off and redo the color temp. Then you get REAL black. NEC XG has this line too and it's OFF by default.

Li On*
Actually, the situation is a bit worse on the Sony G70 and D50 machines. Not only is the straight AKB line visible at the top above the image, but you also see the retrace of the AKB line. The straight AKB line itself can be pretty well hidden with black masking. The unfortunate thing on the Sony's is that the unblanked AKB line retrace curves downward into the image area. Unlike the NEC's, turning off the AKB system on the Sony's drastically drops light output and attempts to redo color temp to compensate usually fails to compensate adequately before you run out of control range.


You don't notice this curved line except during dark scenes. It's akin to the faint horizontal line you see on a Trinitron tube. You don't realize it is there until someone points it out. Then you keep seeing it for while.


----------



## Guy Kuo

Quote:

_Originally posted by RobertWood_
*If the G70 is making as bright a picture as they were describing last night. And doing it with little bitty old tubes. Then it must be driving em pretty durn hard.*
Not overdriven, but a bit harder driven than my NEC. Steven has his set to deliver 10 FL at the screen for a 100 IRE Window on a 96 inch wide screen. That's 15 FL taking into account his 1.5 screen gain.


Take the 40% increase in screen area (96/80)^2 over my 80 inch wide screen, that means his G70 needs to deliver 40% more light to achieve the same FL delivered to the screen. However, remember he uses a 1.5 gain screen instead of 1.3. Divide that by the screen gain ratio 1.5/1.3 (1.154) and you get 1.4 / 1.154 = 1.2. He only needs to push 1.2 times harder to get the same intensity delivered to the eye.


I have my NEC delivering 11 FL at the screen for an effective 11 x 1.3 = 14 FL for white, a bit dimmer than Steve's G70. I'm pushing roughly the XG to output 14/15/1.2 or 78% as hard as Steve's G70. The G70 is working 1.3 times harder than my XG.


----------



## Guy Kuo

I've had verified yesterday that much of the banding we were seeing in Coral Reef is encoded in the source itself. That was further exacerbated by the DVI level mismatch. We should pretty much discount the banding we saw on the DLP during that sequence.


----------



## xamphear

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mercer_
*PLEASE! Hairs? It's a much bigger difference between a Z1 and a Z2. We're talking about a 964x544(0.5mpixel) vs 1280x720(0.92mpixel) difference. Not to mention the 1.1mpixel resolution of the Sony HS-20. There is also the point of chosing a correct screen for the correct projector, and the Z1 is more a grey-screen LCD projector. Of course your going to see more details with a CRT projector that is able to handle much higher resolutions than the Z1, it doesn't magically produce information that isn't there.*
What I was saying implies no magic, nor does it have anything to do with screen color preference or resolution. It's not about absolute black level or the screen door effect or scaling artifacts. It's not like the Z1 is removing detail or the G70 is adding any, especially when viewing a source with an original resolution far below 1280x720.


It's merely a factor of contrast ratio; the G70 can simply discern many times more discrete levels of shading, which enables it to display details that are "missing" (in quotes so you don't think I'm playing hocus pocus) on the Z1. And before you jump up and down about the Z2 having 50% more contrast ratio than the Z1, that's still a *far* cry from what the G70 and 11k can do. (And this of course, leaves out the fact that the Z series is plagued by vertical and horizontal banding, among other LCD artifacts)


Have you see your Z2 (I'm assuming you own one) displayed back to back with a good CRT? Have you seen a good CRT period? If not, then I'm really the only one between us qualified to comment on how low-end digitals stand up against CRTs. I'm not trying to crap all over low-end digitals, I've owned one for a while now, and have had no problems with it. In fact, if you had read my entire post, I'm looking forward to the day when I can go back to buying low-end digital projectors.


----------



## Guy Kuo

Compared to older DLP, the Sharp has less visible dither during the Avia PRO Rainbow Dither test. It's much less a problem now, but can still occur. It is far far less severe than on the LT150 generation of machines. The faster mirrors of the HD2 helps. Also, greater DLP resolution means viewing distance is getting easier to match to the chip resolution. With the lower resolution of the older machines it was all too easy to sit too close to the screen relative to the available pixels.


----------



## MC Maniac

Guy,


Is there an 'ideal' FL we should be targeting our PJ's for ?


Is there a point where our eyes adjust to any extra brightness - in effect discard it - and you don't get any perceived benefits?


I wanted to ask you - and Bob Wood this question..


As you switch back and forth between a DLP and CRT is this making the DLP seem to have more punch because you are comparing against the CRT?


Conversely does this make the CRT look more dim to you as compared to someone who just had the same CRT/Screen/room combo because you are alternating?


----------



## Guy Kuo

16 FL is commonly quoted, but many aim below or above. It's a range of acceptable values.


It's difficult to perfectly match digital vs CRT in terms of brightness and "punch" because the CRT doesn't deliver the same FL for 100 IRE in all conditions. The amount of screen area varies the light output on a CRT. Thus, setting both for the same FL on a 100 IRE window doesn't mean the machines are equally matched. In this last comparison, we had the DLP definitely dimmer than the CRT except for a brief few moments with the machine in high output mode. That was very bright. I found the DLP too dim this Sunday. By calculations it was only 78% as bright to our vision as at my place so it lost quite a bit of punch in addition to contrast ratio. I think it was no longer in its "sweet" performance range.


----------



## dawziecat

I am painfully aware of that. I have NEVER seen a high-end, line doubled CRT in action. My Runco of years ago, was the low-end 750T model. In fact, I have never seen a high-end dPJ in action either, although the Sony 10W was getting up there in price when I saw it. That was four years ago and I KNOW the new Z2, at a fraction of that cost looks better than the 10W did.


I still feel the CRT crowd is a tad elitist and "dis" anything that does not mesh with their rather anomalous world. Anomalous because of the highly artificial set of market circumstances that has resulted in these, formerly VERY costly, machines being dumped on the market. That they are great machines for those prepared to keep them in action, that they throw pretty much the best picture around, that they are the greatest "bang for the buck" possible, I do not dispute. How could I? I have, to repeat, really never seen one.


BUT . . . I sense exaggeration too. The old metaphors and rhetoric used in the past. The smug epithets hurled at digital . . . no need to repeat 'em here. I don't think that has changed. The attitude expressed with "The Z2 is cheap! That alone means any CRT will "blow it out of the water!" (My words, no one else's but I sense they are not far off what many here think.)


Well, I am not so sure. In truth I think the differences, while very likely real, are far less than the zealots would have us believe. In truth, I truly don't see how the Z2 picture COULD be so much worse than that thrown by ANY machine extant today simply because it is a damn fine picture! There just does not appear to be room for the kind of improvement that would make comparison with ANY machine a "night and day" proposition. The improvements, undeniably offered in some, CURRENTLY available higher priced dPJs are certainly there. But, I feel those improvements are likely incremental, as opposed to earth shattering. And, too, I suspect the hypothetical Z2 vs G70/90 contest would be a less dramatic comparison than folks here want to believe.


But, I humbly repeat, my opinion counts for little. I'd like to have the experience base with G90s and the like to be able to assert it more forcefully.


The marketplace will iron out this debate. The digitals are getting better, are already MUCH better and cheaper than what I looked at four years ago and, the CRT FPTV is headed to the boneyard.


The whole issue is reminiscent of the "digital vs film" debate rife throughout the photo industry up to about three year ago. You don't hear much from the film crowd anymore. They are still there of course, but the "quality of digital vs that of film" does not get much time on the debating floor these days.


I suspect the situation in this field will come to a similar end.

Quote:

_Originally posted by luke_3891_
*i know everyone will disagree with me here but the Z2 i believe holds up well, but of course the complete darks scenes wont be good as a CRT.


like ive said before, a few CRT guys on here have changed to a Z2 and are quite happy it seems. i have seen the Z2 and think it does well enough to change for convenience.*


----------



## WanMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*I don't think we need to do this comparison again. My room is a little darker than Guy's and I have a Firehawk. So, the plan is to have the other guys see this in its natural habitat just as we have seen the other two in their natural habitats.

--Darin*
Is this due to the black velvet? I thought Guy's environment was flat black all around, but my imagination keeps me in trouble all of the time. Also, I didn't know anyone had filtered (color corrected) any XG's. That is a good question.


Guy, wasn't Sam Runco & Co. pushing 14 fL? I thought they claimed this is what people are seeing in the public theaters (or suppose to be seeing)?


----------



## Ohlson

Guy

Are you in fact saying that in addition to the this room being a non perfect match for the 11k that the screen was also a bit big?


1.3 gain , dark room, smaller screen

1.5 gain , more room reflections, was it 96''


Modern dlp give up alot of light output for the best cr. It will be interesting to see if they can apply extensions to the dynamic range of digitals in the future. The vp-10s1 has alot of light output and 4000:1. This is one of my candidated to get eclipsed.


----------



## GScott

Quote:

_Originally posted by dawziecat_
*

And, too, I suspect the hypothetical Z2 vs G70/90 contest would be a less dramatic comparison than folks here want to believe.

*
Are you serious? The comparison between a G90 and the Sanyo Z2 would not even be close. I'm trying to phrase this nicely but that comment is no better than the ones you claim the CRT elitists make. I'm also trying to be nice because I assume you are not familiar with the comments that came out of the G90/Faroudja 1080p demo. It's been awhile but the comments were along the lines of "best looking video I've ever seen". I don't recall hearing anyone make the same comments about the current digital projectors. In fact I still read references to that demo.


I'm not trying to bash your Z2. I'm glad you like it but don't pretend it is in the same league as the Sharp 11k or a high end CRT. This has nothing to do with CRT elitism. It is the simple fact that the Z2 (or any other LCD) does not have the contrast ratio or fill factor of the Sharp 11k. I don't have the spec's of the Z2 but I think the contrast ratio of the Sharp is about 3x's greater. I have seen a calibrated Z2 and I have a SMART calibrated Z1 setup next to my XG110 and the LCD's throw a nice image but it only takes a few minutes to notice the typical LCD flaws.


----------



## GScott

Quote:

_Originally posted by Guy Kuo_
*There were visible scan lines if the screen was viewed from several feet. Remember, Steve's tubes are now a little older. They are no longer as sharp as fresh, new tubes. This gets glossed over when talking about CRT. The change is very gradual so you don't notice on your own system. It's most evident when you retube or go set up someone elses's new machine. You notice that the fresh tubes are able to create a sharper edge around the electron spot. As the tubes age, this gradually becomes more gaussian. Steve's are now such that at 720P the scan lines just touch.

*
Guy,


I don't think anyone glosses over CRT scan lines. I've always considered it a non issue because if I can see scan lines from my seat at 720p then I just change the resolution to a higher one in which I don't see the scanlines. One my old green CRT I didn't see them from about 1.5x at 720p. Now that I have retubed the green I can occassionally see them on very bright scenes. I have decided to live with for now since we are moving and the projector is coming down next month.


Unfortunately on a digital you cannot increase the resolution to get rid of the screen door. You can defocus or move your seating position. I can easily see LCD screen door from my seating position and occasionally see pixels from a DLP (but only on bright scenes). I, like many others, enjoy sitting about 1.3 - 1.5x so at this point the scan lines are easier for me to deal with than pixel structure. I did notice on the SXRD demo at Cedia that the pixel structure was essentially non existent. I'm not sure if this was the LCOS panels, the 1920x1080 resolution, or both but it was very impressive.


----------



## WanMan

I think we can all agree that both technologies will offer their ever-changing conditions as the tubes and lamps wear, and this should even be something worth discussing unless one technology seems to change much more rapidly than the other (rate of hour accumulation).


I think a well setup CRT can resolve the issues of discernible scan lines at one's appropriate seating distance. Define the appropriate seating distance for both technologies and if they differ select the mid-point between the two for the comparison. I do not think we all went into this we the intention to pan down one's wear-conditions while high-lighting the opposing technology's wear conditions.


Thus, if the CRT wants, as an example, 1.4x and the digital wants 1.6x then select a 1.5x for the comparison. If the percentage of wear (or hours) are the same, the I think discussion of the relevant sharpness/focus for the two technologies is a fair topic for discussion. The problem comes in when trying to determine when light-source A reaches 80% of its best operating conditions. Yes, I suppose one could attempt a comparison at 100-hours, but even 100-hours for (extreme analogy) G1000 compared to 100-hours on a 9PG+ would probably yield different results provided all other things were constant (i.e. they were operated during those 100 hours in a manner of appropriateness and not abuse).


No comparison will be perfect and I think we'll all agree on that note. But I would find it fair to determine and issue a comparison in which both technologies have sufficient hours on their light sources to be 'broken in' while not outside the best-hours range for the best operating conditions.


The same compromise (e.g. seating distance) needs to also be taken in what is considered fair for screen size and format. CRT's of course get the bulk of their light output with the increased use of phosphor while the lamps in digitals output regardless of how much of their panels are in use. So, once the screen size and format are determined to be fair then we can move onto the bloody discussion of environment controls.


We would all like to have the perfect testing environment but I am not so sure this can be easily achieved without permanently modifying one's personal home. I thought I did a decent job in creating a black hole of my viewing room, but the condition of light reflection off of the wall do to the paint sheen was resulting and light reflection all over the place. Thus, looking for an environment that eliminates outside influence is a must, but this need not be a perfect black-body interior, just one that lies below the boundary of influence for the two compared technologies.


Dear god, we haven't even gotten to the discussion of source materials, decoders, transcoders, transports, and display setups!


----------



## luke_3891

its basically what im saying aswell. after all the figures and everything been noted etc, it really comes to your eye in what you see is best. its great to read these shootouts, very interestingly actually, but in the end of the day, after owning a 1292, i dont think the differences between these projectors are all that great. yes of course you can see the difference. eg. i saw the SIM2 HT PLUS and the Yamaha LPX-500. after it being switched from projector to projector with the same source and everything, there isnt THAT much difference, and i firmly believe that. yes straight away i could see the SDE more pronounced on the Yamaha and the contrast, but its not a massive difference, its just noticable. and well for the price difference, why would you go with the [email protected] unless you earnt big $$$$$.


and well about the Z2, in most dvds i use etc, id rahter that than my old 1292. theres not as much contrast etc but the punch of a digital wins me over, plus theres not jet taking off in the process creating volcanic heat. and in now way does the 1292 blow the Z2 out of the water. if someone says this, well im sure they are for some reason trying to put the wrong point across in peoples minds.


CRTs still overall to a degree have the edge in blacks but in overall quality, id choose a HD2 DLP anyday if i had the cash, or it would be the Z2 at the moment as it puts out a very decent image.


Quote:

_Originally posted by dawziecat_
*I am painfully aware of that. I have NEVER seen a high-end, line doubled CRT in action. My Runco of years ago, was the low-end 750T model. In fact, I have never seen a high-end dPJ in action either, although the Sony 10W was getting up there in price when I saw it. That was four years ago and I KNOW the new Z2, at a fraction of that cost looks better than the 10W did.


I still feel the CRT crowd is a tad elitist and "dis" anything that does not mesh with their rather anomalous world. Anomalous because of the highly artificial set of market circumstances that has resulted in these, formerly VERY costly, machines being dumped on the market. That they are great machines for those prepared to keep them in action, that they throw pretty much the best picture around, that they are the greatest "bang for the buck" possible, I do not dispute. How could I? I have, to repeat, really never seen one.


BUT . . . I sense exaggeration too. The old metaphors and rhetoric used in the past. The smug epithets hurled at digital . . . no need to repeat 'em here. I don't think that has changed. The attitude expressed with "The Z2 is cheap! That alone means any CRT will "blow it out of the water!" (My words, no one else's but I sense they are not far off what many here think.)


Well, I am not so sure. In truth I think the differences, while very likely real, are far less than the zealots would have us believe. In truth, I truly don't see how the Z2 picture COULD be so much worse than that thrown by ANY machine extant today simply because it is a damn fine picture! There just does not appear to be room for the kind of improvement that would make comparison with ANY machine a "night and day" proposition. The improvements, undeniably offered in some, CURRENTLY available higher priced dPJs are certainly there. But, I feel those improvements are likely incremental, as opposed to earth shattering. And, too, I suspect the hypothetical Z2 vs G70/90 contest would be a less dramatic comparison than folks here want to believe.


But, I humbly repeat, my opinion counts for little. I'd like to have the experience base with G90s and the like to be able to assert it more forcefully.


The marketplace will iron out this debate. The digitals are getting better, are already MUCH better and cheaper than what I looked at four years ago and, the CRT FPTV is headed to the boneyard.


The whole issue is reminiscent of the "digital vs film" debate rife throughout the photo industry up to about three year ago. You don't hear much from the film crowd anymore. They are still there of course, but the "quality of digital vs that of film" does not get much time on the debating floor these days.


I suspect the situation in this field will come to a similar end.*


----------



## WanMan

While there may be CRT advocates that tend to have a rather harsh response to competing technologies, I would not think to label the whole based on those extreme advocacies. Additionally, one needs to look beyond the intonation of posts and replies and read the core and be able to determine if the written word has merit in the reader's own HT life.


Don't get caught on the emotional side of technologies. There are many more things in life to get emotional about.


----------



## luke_3891

Rob,


if you want a sharper picture from a CRT, in my view id rather have the scanline shsowing a little to make it sharper looking. if you didnt see the scanlines, the picture will then start to look softer.


Quote:

_Originally posted by Rob Dingen_
*Hi


Thanks for the shootout en the nice repots you al given.

But I have a question about the G70.

When you look at the sharp you all se pixels but when you look at the G70 setup at 1280x720 nobody complaints about scanlines.

I have setup several G70 and tons of Barco 808 and with a good quality CRT you see easy scanlines at 1280x720 at 1.5 screenwide whats the deal here.

I think the CRT could be sharper if you didn't see the scanlines.

Guy Curt Steve and Darin?


Rob*


----------



## Guy Kuo

Quote:

_Originally posted by GScott_


I don't think anyone glosses over CRT scan lines. ....on a digital you cannot increase the resolution to get rid of the screen door. ... [/b]


I was actually referring to the focus of the tubes softening over time rather than visibility of scan lines. This is forgotten when some claim 10,000 hours of run time for a set of tubes. There is degradation of that time and the more discerning viewer may well decide that retubing is needed to maintain maximal sharpness of beam focus.


I agree that digitals would do much better with increased panel resolution. The SXRD's 1920 x 1080 pixel resolution did lend it a smoothness and sharpness which we don't quite see at lower resolutions. With increased seating distance, you get it back. At 1.3 screen widths, there is definite doubt that the distance is appropriate for current DLP resolution.


----------



## Mercer

Quote:

_Originally posted by xamphear_
*What I was saying implies no magic, nor does it have anything to do with screen color preference or resolution. It's not about absolute black level or the screen door effect or scaling artifacts. It's not like the Z1 is removing detail or the G70 is adding any, especially when viewing a source with an original resolution far below 1280x720.


It's merely a factor of contrast ratio; the G70 can simply discern many times more discrete levels of shading, which enables it to display details that are "missing" (in quotes so you don't think I'm playing hocus pocus) on the Z1. And before you jump up and down about the Z2 having 50% more contrast ratio than the Z1, that's still a far cry from what the G70 and 11k can do. (And this of course, leaves out the fact that the Z series is plagued by vertical and horizontal banding, among other LCD artifacts)


Have you see your Z2 (I'm assuming you own one) displayed back to back with a good CRT? Have you seen a good CRT period? If not, then I'm really the only one between us qualified to comment on how low-end digitals stand up against CRTs. I'm not trying to crap all over low-end digitals, I've owned one for a while now, and have had no problems with it. In fact, if you had read my entire post, I'm looking forward to the day when I can go back to buying low-end digital projectors.*
Well, there are some faults in your logic.

- LCD has a problem with fill-ratio, hence a higher resolution will give smaller pixels, and at the same time reducing the SDE.

- In my experience contrast ratio is more of a tool for determining black level than actually saying anything about how many "shades" the projector can produce. For instance, the HS-20 can produce 65 trillion different kinds of colors, double the number of colors of the Sharp 11000, does that make it better? Also, if you focus on the ANSI CR of the CRTs, they are hardly better than the digital projectors.

- Yes, I have seen a few CRTs, both the BarcoData 800 and BarcoGraphics 808s. I've also seen Sony HS-10, Epson TW-100 and of course my own Sony HS-20. I've however not seen the Sanyo Z2, but the Epson TW-100 is a very similar product(although a older version of the panels used in the Z2). To me the HS-20 is in a whole different league than the TW-100, but that is more a matter of taste. The HS-20 has a more smooth picture.

- I've also done comparisons between the HS-20 and the BarcoGraphics 808s in equal environment, and using the same source. It wasn't a fair comparison though, since the HS-20 was over twice as bright as the Barco 808s.


You can see my results from this shootout on my web-page:

http://home.online.no/~tklev/LCDvsCRT 


Regards,

Tore K.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Quote:

originally posted by guy: At our viewing distance those artifacts were pretty well hidden. Pixellation was a complaint more this time due to the slightly closer viewing distance than last week. I think Chris was the most vocal about it, and was also sitting closest to the screen. It was at his preferred view angle, but in my opinion too close to be supported by and 1280 pixel wide DLP chip. When setting up a system with fixed panel whose elements are so sharply focused, you really need to pay attention to making sure you are far enough away to make the pixels visually blend together. A one or two foot change in viewing distance tremendously alters your perception of pixels vs smoothness..
Yes, I was sitting a little too close, and though I didn't mention it, I think I did notice to a small degree the scanline shimmering on the desktop, and once in the sky on the CRT as well. Not sure if my eyes were playing tricks on me though. Pixels were degrading at first on the dlp, and even moving back to the rear of the room didn't totally get rid of them for me, which is surprising since I wear glasses which aren't always as sharp as I'd like them to be. However, by the end of the evening, my eyes were getting pretty tired, and I wasn't even paying attention or hardly noticing the pixels anymore. The pixels, IMO really only jump out at you on text and such that will create jaggies, and with a diminished 3d effect. Though we'll see if I can make it to Darin's darkroom to see how much the room washout degraded the 3d effect on the dlp. I'd be curious to see how the better in-scene cr helps with that. Typing this on an LCD monitor right now, definitely scooting back can help eliminate seeing the pixels, but jaggies are still visible. Darin mentioned pixel bleeding might help with this, along with tighter packing, and of course just more pixels.


----------



## Steve Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*I just remembered something that was discussed at the shootout, but I don't remember if it was posted here. I don't think either the XG or the G70 were stock. They both had filtered red tubes. Does anybody know how much those add to the cost/effort? Do most CRT owners here have filtered red tubes? I'm just not sure how common this is and whether it is the norm or the exception.


--Darin*
Just for clarification, both the XGLC and G70 come from the manufacturer with color filtered green and red lenses. Guy has some charts he'll be posting which compare the primaries of the 11k, XG, and G70.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by Steve Smith_
*Just for clarification, both the XGLC and G70 come from the manufacturer with color filtered green and red lenses. Guy has some charts he'll be posting which compare the primaries of the 11k, XG, and G70.
*
Okay, I was definitely confused. I thought you and Guy were talking about modifying the projectors.
Quote:

_Originally posted by HEAT_
*In fact any 7+" crt would,my standpoint was that the G70 was better-it was.*
Weren't you the person telling us that the shootout was basically worthless and originally posted quite a bit encouraging us not to even hold it? And now you seem to be saying that you predicted the outcome. Why didn't you tell us before the shootout that the G70 would win?


As I said before the shootout I wanted to gain information. And I think we did. I also think that viewing the 11k in a completely controlled room with a Firehawk will give us some more information.


Guys room is pretty dark, but isn't velvet dark all around and there was also some light coming under the door. I have no idea if the light under the door made any difference (probably not), but I'll measure the ANSI CR in my room again when I get some more of the black material put up on my back wall (that is currently dark purple).


Here is what you said before the shootout:
Quote:

*

..I must also state that their is no harm in having fun comparisons as long as its clear that no conclusions are meant to be taken ad verbatim..The best test is to see for yourself ..*
I of course don't disagree that the best test is to see things yourself (who would?), but now you seem to be changing your stance as to whether people who weren't there should accept the results.


I don't need 20 years in the industry to know that comments along the lines of (my interpretation) "it is unfair to use the digital input on a digital projector" don't make a lot of sense. 


--Darin


----------



## Steve Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by Li On_
*It's the AKB line which does a auto color temp adjust. It basically render the Brightness control useless! Turn that off and redo the color temp. Then you get REAL black. NEC XG has this line too and it's OFF by default.
*
Quote:

_Originally posted by Guy Kuo_
*Actually, the situation is a bit worse on the Sony G70 and D50 machines. Not only is the straight AKB line visible at the top above the image, but you also see the retrace of the AKB line. The straight AKB line itself can be pretty well hidden with black masking. The unfortunate thing on the Sony's is that the unblanked AKB line retrace curves downward into the image area. Unlike the NEC's, turning off the AKB system on the Sony's drastically drops light output and attempts to redo color temp to compensate usually fails to compensate adequately before you run out of control range.


You don't notice this curved line except during dark scenes. It's akin to the faint horizontal line you see on a Trinitron tube. You don't realize it is there until someone points it out. Then you keep seeing it for while.*
Guy is correct, there's really not much you can do here except learn to live with it. For me this has always been a minor annoyance with the G70. None of my guests have ever noticed the retrace lines unless they were pointed out. If you turn AKB off you lose a lot of light output and gray scale tracking is not nearly as good. This was confirmed with Guy's Sencore color anaylzer.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by xamphear_
*Have you see your Z2 (I'm assuming you own one) displayed back to back with a good CRT? Have you seen a good CRT period? If not, then I'm really the only one between us qualified to comment on how low-end digitals stand up against CRTs. I'm not trying to crap all over low-end digitals, I've owned one for a while now, and have had no problems with it. In fact, if you had read my entire post, I'm looking forward to the day when I can go back to buying low-end digital projectors.*
I have an AE500 that is fairly comparable to the Z2. I wouldn't have brought it to the shootout as there would have been no point in doing that. Not bad for the price, but it is in a different league than the 11k and I think everybody at this shootout would have seen that pretty quickly.


--Darin


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by HEAT_
*Lets cut the c**p here,you want a digital thats close to the best of crt-buy the Qualia-IF you want a dlp thats close to the Qualia buy the Sharp!
*
I figured I should address this one as you've mentioned it multiple times and the SXRD vs the 11k is a very good question. Which is better? Well, I have seen the SXRD a couple of times and I would trade my 11k for it in a second. However, would others? I am confident that Guy Kuo would not as he values CR very much. Both ANSI and on/off. The SXRD is not that strong in those areas compared to the 11k from my viewings. It does have great pixel count and smoothness and I have to believe that the colors will be tweakable even if some reported that the colors weren't spot on at the showings in San Francisco or Bellevue that I attended. I know that Guy has seen it on multiple occasions and for his small theater room I would be willing to bet that he would rather use an 11k. He of course can weigh in on that one.


Is "Rock, Paper, Scissors" a universal game? I know it is common in the US and the reason I bring it up is that when the question of what is better is asked it is very possible that the answer will change depending on the environment and viewers. Also, even if Rock loses to Paper and Paper loses to Scissors it does not follow that Rock loses to Scissors. I don't believe that the SXRD would beat the 11k in every situation and I know there are many who will just like some of the advantages of DLPs over this SXRD, but I would still trade for one in a second. I would love to have one for my 116" wide High Power in my living room and hope to get something like it in the future (at least some variant of LCOS at 1920x1080p). I would still like more CR, though.


You have mentioned the SX21 multiple times and have preferred it to the DLPs. I think that is common. Some prefer the SX21 and some prefer the DLPs. Just different strokes for different folks. However, I also own an SX21 so it isn't like I am completely unfamiliar with it. I prefer the 11k for my theater room in general.


--Darin


----------



## Tryg

You are a black level addict. Seek help!


Only then will you be able to enjoy a full movie.


----------



## HEAT

Heat, Perhaps you should do the same now to keep up to date?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I do frequently.


Darin,

When you do a shootout,(a) it would be preferable if you could state up front what the object is -or what in fact you are trying to achieve-if it is to be a shootout that is trying to determine something-then either the criteria is common-or you show each projector at its best-either way you state clearly what is intended.


or (b) There are no conclusions to be drawn other than its a bit of fun.


As hobbyists sure there can be an element of fun with (a).


I dont say this to be facetious,rather to help you actually conclude something after you have gone to the trouble.


As regards why didnt i state in advance the G70 was better,I had already stated that in my opinion ANY 7"+ crt would have the better of the Sharp,i stated that the 1272 would best the Sharp(that has larger tubes than the G70)-so i think it obvious my views on what would fare better.

I would also say that for a lot of people who had seen both projectors it was obvious which would win.

You guys have made it sound a lot closer than it was which is probably why people want to do compariosns with X1`S and the like!!

In my view again,it is not close-you may well have made the Sharp look better than ive seen it-but with its inherant limitations it is still not as close as has been stated(..or should i say NOT stated.)


I nearly always talk of the overall picture-the technology doesnt bother me-the end result is what counts-im with crt because at the moment it is the best -i know it is the best.That evaluation is based on 20 years of experience and continual comparisons.


Believe me,do i want a big behemouth like crt-no way,but until the picture is as good from digital i wont switch-that doesnt make me a die hard crt`er -I defend crt because i still have faith it can produce the best picture.


You are to be applauded for actually getting some of these crt fogies to believe in the Sharp-...(but then they are like old dogs waiting to be put out of their misery from the addiction of crt!)


Another thing is,i dont hero worship-i can set up a great picture-i dont need the measurements ..and the color facts and all that money making crud to minimise the chance of feeble evaluation.

I use my experience..my eyes..my memory..and aim to get close to emulating real life ..real colours..


As an example,I remember recommending the 12ht to a friend of mine-he had it ISF calibrated(..another money making unecessary con..)-we debated what would look better his ISF`d TO 6500K OR the 12ht I HAD AT THE TIME.

He brought his round looking quite confident -all i can say is that the conficence had gone when he left.


So ALL these guys who are gurus this and that..who can take a projector apart and put it back together-all power to them...But im confident i can put up a picture with the best of them.


Heres an example for you,a techie pal of mine had a problem on a projector-he spent hours and hours trying to solve the problem..he sold it to me cheap because he couldnt solve the problem-i solved it on the remote in 5mins while he sat there.


Sometimes the art is in the simplicity of the situation-and i believe that getting the best out of a picture is simplicity+ experience...make it simple ..know from experience how to make it look good.


All the manuals and measurements in the world dont beat that,you can over egg the mix-as happens many times in shootouts in here-so its all complicated in setup and how many hours were spent twiddling this and that-then like a good film with a cr*p ending -the conclusion is not there --or its blurred.

People need to think more on this instead of complicating matters so much they draw no conclusion at the end...


There should never be a sit on the fence shootout...a politically correct shootout...waste of time really.


----------



## WanMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by Tryg_
*You are a black level addict. Seek help!


Only then will you be able to enjoy a full movie. *
Well, I did help myself to a projector with a decent black level. 


And as a result, I enjoyed plenty of movies.


----------



## ssj2

HEAT, you're not going to convince too many people that what you have to say is valid with comments such as this:

Quote:

Another thing is,i dont hero worship-i can set up a great picture-i dont need the measurements ..and the color facts and all that money making crud to minimise the chance of feeble evaluation
or this:

Quote:

So ALL these guys who are gurus this and that..who can take a projector apart and put it back together-all power to them...But im confident i can put up a picture with the best of them
Guy Kuo is the best of them. And other than not coming to the conclusions you wanted, how was the shoot out politically correct, or even fence sitting?


I'm a former digital & now CRT owner. For anybody who's interested in picture quality, the performance of the latest digital projectors should be viewed as good news.


----------



## Moe

Well I just read this whole thing.


Thanks for doing all this guys, very fun and informative post. Although it doesn't mean much to me because I couldn't afford one of these new digitals even if I wanted to.


Glad to see Curt has finally come to his senses about the G70 as well.


(Proud G70 owner here)


----------



## ChrisWiggles

"I had already stated that in my opinion ANY 7"+ crt would have the better of the Sharp"


...........


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by HEAT_
*As regards why didnt i state in advance the G70 was better
*
Actually, my question was, "Why didn't you tell us before the shootout that the G70 would win?" Not whether you thought it was better or not. I already knew the answer to that one. Maybe the reason is that you thought the people there wouldn't be honest about what they saw.


Also, I see nothing wrong with laying out what some of us hope to learn before a shootout, but I don't necessarily even know the room layout or much else before I get there. So, I also don't see much wrong with trying this stuff and learning as we go. Maybe all we learn is, "This G70 with an HTPC tweaked by somebody with Steve Smith's skills compares to an 11k tweaked with some help from Guy Kuo with different sources in Steve's room with some tan walls in these ways." That is good enough for me. As I've said before, one of my goals in all this is to see these CRTs as I have not been familiar with them. And I think the other people who have attended these shootouts have learned a lot, also.


I didn't state which one people would like better before the shootout because I didn't know the answer, as I basically said before the event. And I'm not sure how much difference my Firehawk and dark room will make, but I am planning on doing the testing and seeing what people think. I will state my goal clearly here. I want to see if Chris and Steve feel that these two things help the depth perception with the 11k (I will guess that they will) and whether the Firehawk helps with some of the other issues in their opinions.


--Darin


----------



## Campster

Awesome comparison guys! I've just read through the lot and loved it all!


I know I'd be extremely happy with either projector. There is only one reason I'm sticking with CRT's atm, and thats price. I'm sure I'd have a very tough time choosing if the 11k was the same price as a used CRT - but for now they arent. And until they are I'll stick with the behemoth! 


Nice work and congrats to both digital and crt


----------



## Energeezer

Well as a CRTer I don't think i would have much trouble choosing IF the 11K and a good 8" USED CRT were the same price.

Judging from what I've read on the last 2 comparos

11K hands down simply for the fact it carries a warrentee, its new, its small, its easy to set up and it compares well if not as good as a G-70 tweaked. Oh ya and i could take it to the lake on the weekends and have movies there.

Steve


----------



## WanMan

Steve, just don't forget your ND4 when watching Alien at the lake.


----------



## Li On

Quote:

_Originally posted by Steve Smith_
*Guy is correct, there's really not much you can do here except learn to live with it. For me this has always been a minor annoyance with the G70. None of my guests have ever noticed the retrace lines unless they were pointed out. If you turn AKB off you lose a lot of light output and gray scale tracking is not nearly as good. This was confirmed with Guy's Sencore color anaylzer.*
No, Guy is NOT correct! (wow, I said that!  I once owned a new G70 and the first thing I did is turn off the AKB! And redo the color temp. Used it for around 150 hours and sold to a friend (Bought a new NEC XG85, what a dump idea now come to think of it!) Also I helped a friend with a G70 to get rid of the AKB.


In my experience, with the AKB off and gray scale re-adjusted, the G70 gives a FAR MUCH better picture dynamic with the correct BLACK and shadow detail (without the interfence of the AKB) and the white level still looks as good as it gets. If you can't get it right in the first run, try harder! The new R/G/B gain/bias are COMPLETELY different!


Besides, with the AKB on, the G70 will give weird brightness flicker when one adjust the Top blanking around the AKB position.


The G70 is THE best 8" CRT projector IMO. This comment comes from watching many G70 (7 among my friend's, 2 of them with AKB off by me) in the past 4 years and my own experience with a brand new NEC XG85 for around 2200 hours before it died on me! If today I MUST use a CRT projector, the G70 is the only choice.


regards,


Li On


----------



## Li On

Quote:

_Originally posted by HEAT_
*I use my experience..my eyes..my memory..and aim to get close to emulating real life ..real colours..
*
KBK, where are you? 


regards,


Li On


----------



## jcmccorm

Li On -    Good one.


Cary


----------



## WanMan

Li On, if you shut off the AKB and re-do the color temp, how did you keep track of the changes in the tubes over time? Oh yeah, you didn't have the projector long enough to find out.


----------



## Guy Kuo

Lion, I don't think your G70 was typical in that regard. We definitely ran out of bias and gain adjustment range on Steve's G70. Even with maxed out controls there wasn't any way to regain the losses using the bias and gain controls with AKB off. The D50 had the same problem as well. It may be that the G2 system on your G70 was differently set and allowed your bias and gains to have sufficient range in either AKB state. The firmware version determines whether or not one is allowed to adjust G2. The later ones did not so we were unable to redo G2 to regain sufficient adjusment range.


----------



## budiman

Question to Guy Kuo:

I was just wondering why you did not go to the Technology Retreat? I thought you would be one of the people who would definitely go there - of course if you had gone, we wouldn't have this shoot-out, so all in all it's a wash .


Just curious - Schubin's memo seems to imply a lot of interesting stuff was discussed over there.


----------



## RoBro

"Technology Retreat", what is that?

Roland


----------



## WanMan

Roland, ancient Chinese secret.


----------



## RoBro

Ni hao ma?


----------



## WanMan

Nein!


----------



## RoBro

???

I just asked you in chinese:"How are you".

So you are not???

Roland


----------



## WanMan

Heck, no. I'm German-Scottish, ethnically, but American most of the way.


----------



## RoBro

How about the ancient Chinese secret?


----------



## WanMan

Its a Tide secret, IIRC!


----------



## dokworm

Hey HEAT, if you can get a perfect calibration without instruments - good for you.

If you can KNOW that your projector is better than another projector without actually seeing them side by side - then good for you too.

Hell, you know that the G70 kicked the 11K's arse without even being there... that's pretty cool; you don't happen to know next weeks lottery numbers too? I could really really use them!   


As a colour grader my experience has been that memory is horribly subjective, and that just walking in and out of a room for 5 minutes to grab a coffee can change your colour perception. When adjusting an image to convey a particular feel, then sure we go by memory/experience, by eye. But when calibrating equipment, its instuments all they way, aided by our experience etc. I have also been to some peoples setups so that they can show me how fantastic it is, and I have had to be *really* tactful, and they thought it was the best...

I would be willing to put real money down that if you came to our studios and calibrated our 5 workstation monitors by eye, that none of them would be within 5% of each other.


-Worm - Happy CRT owner.


PS> Now you can stop complaining that no one is being flammatory enough for ya!


----------



## George Kouzev

Quote:

_Originally posted by Li On_
*The G70 is THE best 8" CRT projector IMO. This comment comes from watching many G70 (7 among my friend's, 2 of them with AKB off by me) in the past 4 years and my own experience with a brand new NEC XG85 for around 2200 hours before it died on me! If today I MUST use a CRT projector, the G70 is the only choice.


regards,


Li On*
Hi Li On, I understand your decision to jump on the XG and dump the Sony. Since we have been around this forum for a while, we remember how much praises we have heard about the Nec XG pj. Sony's are great, but they were sort of buried in all that excitement.


Now I am curious to see if Sony digitals will reach the top in that market at some point. The G90 did it for the CRTs, as for digitals, the future will tell....


GK


----------



## Li On

Hi GK,


NEC XG is fine, as long as it works! It does give a sharper focus, as long as you only display ONE source. It's globle EM control SUCKS big time compare to the G70. With all the point control the geometry can be slightly better but only slightly because more push on the point control will cause scanline "gap"! Color rendering is pretty close though the XG is much harder to adjust as each time the AKB line will screw it up slightly each time! Brightness uniformity is a bit harder on the G70.


And most important of all, even my latest XG85 is supposed to work with component source, it's far from perfect. In my area every component source has macovision embedded from DVD progressive to HDTV 1080i and don't work on the XG. I tried so many component to RGB transcoder I lose count!


On the G70, get the Input B 5BNC/component card and dump the default Input A! (That's my little secret G70 tweak!) Get rid of the AKB and redo color temp. It's a whole different level! IMO the best tweaked G70 beats the XG hand down.


regards,


Li On


----------



## Curt Palme

Careful Li On, dem's fightin' words!...


Curt


----------



## dawziecat

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*I have an AE500 that is fairly comparable to the Z2. I wouldn't have brought it to the shootout as there would have been no point in doing that. Not bad for the price, but it is in a different league than the 11k and I think everybody at this shootout would have seen that pretty quickly.


--Darin*
It is just the fact that less than 4 years ago the Sony 10HT was comparably priced to what the Sharp is going for now. (I think?)


While recall is undependable in such things, I believe the black values on that machine were very poor compared to the Z2. I know I had no interest at all in buying at that price point when I auditioned the 10HT. The Z2 goes for about 1/4 the price and is a better machine to my eye.


Sure, I'd like to see the Sharp but I doubt very much the image quality difference would be worth the cost differential to me personally.


And I categorically would not swap the Z2 for the Runco 750 CRT I owned a few years back! The Runco, bought new, cost more than 3 times the price of the Z2 and came with all the attendant problems of CRT placement and setup.


----------



## budiman

Erm, sorry for those not in the know - basically I read Mark Schubin's Monday Memo somewhat religiously - just because it can contain tidbits of info I'd never would've known otherwise. The link for his memos is here:

http://www.digitaltelevision.com/mondaymemo/mlist/ 


And in it he mentioned there's a technology retreat for those that dealt with video production/processing/post-production - a lot of the big name guys are there (Poynton, Bob Ross from CBS, etc. etc.), so I was just wondering why Guy didn't went there. Costs money, of course, but he might have a chance to hawk his AVIA pro there as well.


For those interested, the retreat is already over, it was from February 4-6.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Li On_
*Hi GK,


NEC XG is fine, as long as it works! It does give a sharper focus, as long as you only display ONE source. It's globle EM control SUCKS big time compare to the G70. With all the point control the geometry can be slightly better but only slightly because more push on the point control will cause scanline "gap"! Color rendering is pretty close though the XG is much harder to adjust as each time the AKB line will screw it up slightly each time! Brightness uniformity is a bit harder on the G70.


And most important of all, even my latest XG85 is supposed to work with component source, it's far from perfect. In my area every component source has macovision embedded from DVD progressive to HDTV 1080i and don't work on the XG. I tried so many component to RGB transcoder I lose count!


On the G70, get the Input B 5BNC/component card and dump the default Input A! (That's my little secret G70 tweak!) Get rid of the AKB and redo color temp. It's a whole different level! IMO the best tweaked G70 beats the XG hand down.


regards,


Li On*
I've known the G70 was a better projector than the XG for years, but who want's to continuously argue with XG and Marquee owners. I happen to also own a couple of M8500's and a PG9, I just use the best projectors for my own use, which is 2 G70 in the HT and 1 G70 on the bedroom ceiling.


Gee, now I have to hide from Curt. But even he knows how sharp the G70 focus' is and now he's seen one properly setup.


----------



## schud

Quote:

_Originally posted by techman707_
*I happen to also own a couple of M8500's and a PG9, I just use the best projectors for my own use, which is 2 G70 in the HT and 1 G70 on the bedroom ceiling.*
Holy smokes!


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Guy Kuo_
*Lion, I don't think your G70 was typical in that regard. We definitely ran out of bias and gain adjustment range on Steve's G70. Even with maxed out controls there wasn't any way to regain the losses using the bias and gain controls with AKB off. The D50 had the same problem as well. It may be that the G2 system on your G70 was differently set and allowed your bias and gains to have sufficient range in either AKB state. The firmware version determines whether or not one is allowed to adjust G2. The later ones did not so we were unable to redo G2 to regain sufficient adjusment range.*
Guy,


What firmware version "doesn't" allow Bias (G2) adjustment. I have 3 G70's of which one of them is one of the last ones made and the Bias can be adjusted. I have versions 1.03, 1.10 and 1.13. What version does Steve's unit have?


Also, when you checked the color temperature (which I believe you said you checked reflected off the screen), how many NITS (or Foot lamberts) did you have at peak white coming off the screen?


Bruce


----------



## Guy Kuo

We'd have to ask Steve for that data. We're getting our terminiology crossed here. When I say bias I mean the lower end offset of the video signal level applied to G1 used to set the intensity of the dark end of the grayscale. Gain is the control for the top end. When I say G2, I don't mean the bias but the relatively high amplitude, negative potential applied to the G2 of the tube. He can adjust the bias and gains for each channel but the underlying G2 for the guns is not accessible by pressing bias twice.


The peak white 100 IRE window was picked up at the screen with the probe pointed back at the projector. I believe Steve had it set to 10 FL.


----------



## Chuchuf

The individual G2 adjustment is available on the earliest G70 firmware (1.00, 1.01 maybe more). As Guy point out his allows you to electronically adjust the G2 if you hit the bias key twice. This was taken away on later revs of the firmware (1.10 and later for sure)


Terry


----------



## Guy Kuo

Sony probably had to do that after getting a bunch of destroyed tubes from people messing with G2 inappropriately. Pity for we who would have liked a little bit more control over the cutoff characteristics of the tube, but I guess quite understandable in terms of service costs.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Guy Kuo_
*We'd have to ask Steve for that data. We're getting our terminiology crossed here. When I say bias I mean the lower end offset of the video signal level applied to G1 used to set the intensity of the dark end of the grayscale. Gain is the control for the top end. When I say G2, I don't mean the bias but the relatively high amplitude, negative potential applied to the G2 of the tube. He can adjust the bias and gains for each channel but the underlying G2 for the guns is not accessible by pressing bias twice.


The peak white 100 IRE window was picked up at the screen with the probe pointed back at the projector. I believe Steve had it set to 10 FL.*
Oh ok. That is adjustable on both the D50 and the G70 on one of the boards, but you need the extender card to do it.


I think you may be making a mistake about 10 FL. That would be just about 35 NITS, which if the probe was pointed at the projector, would be an awfully dark picture.


Steve, could you confirm this?


----------



## Guy Kuo

That's 10 FL delivered to the screen. After the 1.5 gain, he's back up to 15 FL which is pretty close the 16 FL average for the recommended SMPTE range.


Which extender board and where can it be obtained. If we could adjust G2, then there is hope for getting rid of his AKB retrace line. Without that, we're sunk. I'm also curious how the control is accessed. Looking through the D50's schematics I could find the DAC which controls the G2 but no manually adjustable pot. Does the extender board allow computer access to the register values?


----------



## ChrisWiggles

I mentioned this but never got around to explaining what I meant, not sure how to pull it off with a fixed 16:9 screen though:


His G70 is setup with anamorphic squeeze, and the AKB line is at the top part of the RASTER, not the image, am I right?


So, instead of running a raster squish, if you use a normal 4:3 size, the 16:9 would be letterboxed within the 4:3 size (which would extend above and below the screen). The AKB line would be at the top of the raster, which would now be way off the screen, right?


The trick would be to figure out a way to set up the HTPC so that ratios narrower than 16:9 would remain in that 16:9 frame, and not go off the screen in a constant width-type setup. Is this possible? Wouldn't this get the AKB line off the screen? And if Steve watches NO 4:3 stuff, then perhaps he wouldn't even have to bother a way for getting the HTPC to output the image within the screen.


And another thought, I haven't gotten any hand-on experience with HTPCs yet, but can't you set up different resolutions and such in the computer? IF you can do different setups on the g70, one 4:3, another anamorphic crush, then you could switch between setups on both if you need to watch 4:3, and you'd only get the AKB line there.


I hope that post made SOME kind of sense. It does in my brain...


.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by Guy Kuo_
*That's 10 FL delivered to the screen. After the 1.5 gain, he's back up to 15 FL which is pretty close the 16 FL average for the recommended SMPTE range.*
It would have been interesting to see what the gain was out where you were sitting, as I'm guessing it was quite a bit below 1.5. The 11k was only about 7.5 ft-lamberts from the projector, but I don't think anybody was complaining about brightness with either one other than when I was wondering if I wanted a little more at one point with the CRT (we didn't watch the same scene with the digital so I don't know if I would have felt the same way). I'm pretty confident that the 7.5 number is correct because it matches up with my calculations I've done in my theater and Steve's screensize.


Maybe the recommendations for image brightness will change to lower values as ANSI CRs get better. I don't know what kind of ANSI CRs we see with film. On the other hand I could see recommendations for peak image brightness going up as we get higher quality sources and get beyond the flicker issues with film in the theater when the images get too bright.


--Darin


----------



## Guy Kuo

He probably could set up the system as a 4x3 raster and then having the PC scale signals such that the central portion of the raster is used. The AKB line (and its much more troublesome visible retrace) would be off the viewing area. The problems are you through away part of your bandwidth in doing this and it won't help during HDTV viewing.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Guy Kuo_
*That's 10 FL delivered to the screen. After the 1.5 gain, he's back up to 15 FL which is pretty close the 16 FL average for the recommended SMPTE range.


Which extender board and where can it be obtained. If we could adjust G2, then there is hope for getting rid of his AKB retrace line. Without that, we're sunk. I'm also curious how the control is accessed. Looking through the D50's schematics I could find the DAC which controls the G2 but no manually adjustable pot. Does the extender board allow computer access to the register values?*
Guy,


It would have been interesting to see what the picture looked like in person. I personally don't like "very" bright pictures, which fortunately most theatres are unable to attain 16FL anyway. However, with video, the SMPTE changed the RP for video in 196M to 12FL, with a color temp of between 6000 and 6600K, although I use about 5500 for B&W material.


I'm in Florida right now, but I'll be back up in NY on Sunday. When I get back to NY, I'll post the part numbers for the boards. There are 4 different extender boards for the G70. If I recall, 2 or 3 of them are compatible with the D50, so there is only 1 or 2 boards that are unique for each projector. When I post the part numbers, I'll tell you which extenders go for which boards on the projector, since depending on what you need to work on, you may not need ALL the boards. If I recall (which usually I can't), the most expensive extender boards are the "double socket" ones that are used on the deflection and PS boards. The extender boards don't give you computer access to anything, they're just extenders, although they have test points on the boards.


What specifically do you want to alter, there are other ways that can be done with a programmer.


One of the biggest problems I've seen on G70's is that people replace the tubes, but don't bother to perform ALL the factory recommended adjustments because they don't have access to the extender boards necessary for some of the adjustments. Unlike many other projectors, the D and G series projector's have more on board analog adjustments then I care to think about and many of them are undocumented in the service manual. Back in the early 70's, Sony, like some other Japanese companies, hold seminars for technical writers who collaborated with Sony engineers to write their service manuals. Sony's manuals were very complete and included the circuit theory for every board. Then, at some point in the early 80's, Sony decided that they would write and print ALL their manuals IN JAPAN. That's why they are so poorly documented and written.


Bruce


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by ChrisWiggles_
*I mentioned this but never got around to explaining what I meant, not sure how to pull it off with a fixed 16:9 screen though:


His G70 is setup with anamorphic squeeze, and the AKB line is at the top part of the RASTER, not the image, am I right?


So, instead of running a raster squish, if you use a normal 4:3 size, the 16:9 would be letterboxed within the 4:3 size (which would extend above and below the screen). The AKB line would be at the top of the raster, which would now be way off the screen, right?


The trick would be to figure out a way to set up the HTPC so that ratios narrower than 16:9 would remain in that 16:9 frame, and not go off the screen in a constant width-type setup. Is this possible? Wouldn't this get the AKB line off the screen? And if Steve watches NO 4:3 stuff, then perhaps he wouldn't even have to bother a way for getting the HTPC to output the image within the screen.


And another thought, I haven't gotten any hand-on experience with HTPCs yet, but can't you set up different resolutions and such in the computer? IF you can do different setups on the g70, one 4:3, another anamorphic crush, then you could switch between setups on both if you need to watch 4:3, and you'd only get the AKB line there.


I hope that post made SOME kind of sense. It does in my brain...


.*
While I'm not bothered by the AKB line with my setup and don't see any retrace from it, while doing what you propose would work, it's like going backwards to use letterbox. You would be loosing resolution gained by using the anamorphic feature that is even used on flat 1:85.1 pictures transferred to DVD. No matter which method you use, you would STILL be burning the same area of the raster, whether you obtain your 16:9 by using letterbox or anamorphic and squeezing the vertical.


----------



## CaspianM

Is there any reason one cannot mask the lens over the front element to hide the AKB?


----------



## Guy Kuo

It's NOT the AKB line itself that is the problem. That lies above the image area. The problem is that the RETRACE of the AKB line is curved and dips downward into the image area. It is particularly problematic on Steve's setup because his HTPC drives the projector at a higher scan rate. The higher the scan rate, the further down the retrace dips down into the image. It's pretty faint and you'll learn to ignore it. Then somebody like me comes along and mischievously points it out and for the next few days you keep looking at it. Kind of like calling out "RAINBOWS!" every time someone in the audience sees one. Before long all you hear about are rainbows. Like any new and novel stimulus input, your brain is initially very good at paying attention to them once you reallize they are there. With time, they become old hat. I see them readily but my brain no longer pay any attention.


If you mask the AKB retrace, you cover top part of the picture as well, unless you do something like Chris suggests for DVD's or can coax your G70 into working correctly without the AKB active like Lion has. We're stuck on Steve's because the bias and cuts dont' have enough range to operate the projector without the AKB. Perhaps with Techman's info we can get that to work. Interesting that there are so many undocumented controls.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by ArtisTech_
*Is there any reason one cannot mask the lens over the front element to hide the AKB?*
If you were in a projection booth and the projector lens was a couple of feet back from the port glass, maybe you get away with masking it, but if you were to do it near the lens, you would just create a shadow into the top of the picture that would be MUCH worse than what you are looking to correct.


Guy or Steve,


What scan rate is the G70 being run at? I want to check that retrace out on one of my G70's when I get back to NY. All I have here in Florida are a couple of 8500's  and an old Sony 1270  with wear on the Blue tube.


----------



## Guy Kuo

He's running the HTPC at 1280 x 720 at 85 Hz (I think). The screen needs to be almost entirely black for it to be visible on his machine. The D50 does the same thing. At 480P/60Hz the curved AKB retrace is outside of the visible image area. At 720P/60Hz it dips a little into the active image.


----------



## Chuchuf

What firmware version is Steve running?

I dount that Steve is running 85hz refresh. Since he is HTPCing it I would think he would run 72hz??


Terry


----------



## Guy Kuo

I'm fairly certain I saw 85 Hz. I recall discussing this with him quite a time ago and he said that motion was smoother to his eyes despite the odd rate.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Guy Kuo_
*That's 10 FL delivered to the screen. After the 1.5 gain, he's back up to 15 FL which is pretty close the 16 FL average for the recommended SMPTE range.


Which extender board and where can it be obtained. If we could adjust G2, then there is hope for getting rid of his AKB retrace line. Without that, we're sunk. I'm also curious how the control is accessed. Looking through the D50's schematics I could find the DAC which controls the G2 but no manually adjustable pot. Does the extender board allow computer access to the register values?*
I believe I recall the setting for the D50 is RV-1301 on the "A" board, which you need a dam extender for. I'll have to look whaen I get to NY for the G70 adjustment.


WOW!! If Steve was running at 85hz refresh, it's no wonder you can see any picture. I think Terry is right, must be 72hz. It's a good thing that nobody is trying 85hz on VDC rebuilds, the tube wouldn't be dark, it would JUST EXPLODE (ha, ha).


----------



## CaspianM

Quote:

_Originally posted by Guy Kuo_
*If you mask the AKB retrace, you cover top part of the picture as well*
Ok, my assumption was that the AKB itself as the major offender and sets somewhat above so gives room to be masked externally with some good absorptive material which does not add to an already established scatter problem.


----------



## Guy Kuo

Did anyone ever get to the root of why the VDC tubes were overheating at lower frequecies than stock tubes? I wondered about the extent of the aqudag perhaps extending further into the neck or having different conductance, but never read anything new here.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by ArtisTech_
*Ok, my assumption was that the AKB itself as the major offender and sets somewhat above so gives room to be masked externally with some good absorptive material which does not add to an already established scatter problem.*
The AKB itself is pretty well invisable at the screen, if you use good masking material, however, Guy says that the retrace is "into" the picture area. While I've never seen this on my G70's, I sure don't run at 85hz either, if that's correct. My feeling is, if your friends don't complain when watching a picture, DON'T make yourself crazy. I don't recall reading that any of the people that were there in person and watching the projector tests complained much about it.


----------



## Chuchuf

Techman,

I have seen this on a few occasions on older G70's with early firmware. Just like Guy describes. I have upped the firmware to 1.11 on a few and made this go away.


Terry


----------



## techman707

Terry,


I believe you're talking about hitting bias twice on the 1.03 firmware (which has so many bugs that who wants it). There is a trimpot on one of the boards that can also adjust it. Like I said, if I recall, on the D50 it's RV 1301 on the "A" board. I just don't recall on the G70, I'll check it out when I get up to NY.


Bruce


----------



## Steve Smith

Guy did remember correctly, I'm currently running [email protected] I arrived at this a long time ago when running an early Radeon with the ATI MMC. At 72hz I was getting some micro stutters which disappeared when I switched to 85hz. Now that I have a new HTPC with Theatertek and programs like reclock available I could probably go back to 72hz. I don't think that will help the situation with the retrace lines. There wasn't much of a difference in how far the lines extend down between 72 and 85hz. I've setup several G70's with various firmware versions. Every one of them has had visible AKB retrace lines. An easy way to see it is to hit picture mute and look into the lenses.


Here's my firmware:


M:1.11

S1:1.12

S2:1.10

S3:1.00


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Steve Smith_
*Guy did remember correctly, I'm currently running [email protected] I arrived at this a long time ago when running an early Radeon with the ATI MMC. At 72hz I was getting some micro stutters which disappeared when I switched to 85hz. Now that I have a new HTPC with Theatertek and programs like reclock available I could probably go back to 72hz. I don't think that will help the situation with the retrace lines. There wasn't much of a difference in how far the lines extend down between 72 and 85hz. I've setup several G70's with various firmware versions. Every one of them has had visible AKB retrace lines. An easy way to see it is to hit picture mute and look into the lenses.


Here's my firmware:


M:1.11

S1:1.12

S2:1.10

S3:1.00*
With the exception of S1, which is the REGI chip, you have the latest firmware. The final S1 is 1.13.


85hz is pretty hard on the projector, it's strange that when you switched to 85hz the stuttering disappeared, since it really shouldn't be affected by that.


Whaen you say an easy way to see the retrace is to look into the lens, isn't it easily noted on the screen? Since you've seen it on a number of G70's, I'm more curious than ever to check mine.


----------



## Li On

Hi,


As Guy still insist AKB off can't be done, I'm going to do it again in a week or 2. A friend's G70 still has this ugly thing on and it annony me everytime I visit him! Next time I'll bring along the ColorFacts and turn that thing OFF, once and for all!


regards,


Li On


----------



## techman707

I know that IT CAN BE DONE. What Guy is saying is that on Steve's G70, when the AKB is turned off they can't get enough output. While it requires a complete recalibration of the color temperature, I've never experienced the gain problem.


I'm going to be checking it out again on one of my G70's and would like to know how you friends G70 turns out. If you can, when you finish setting the color temp, could you read how many NITS or FT Lamberts is coming off the projector? This is the only way to keep it objective.


Bruce


----------



## Steve Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by techman707_
*With the exception of S1, which is the REGI chip, you have the latest firmware. The final S1 is 1.13.


85hz is pretty hard on the projector, it's strange that when you switched to 85hz the stuttering disappeared, since it really shouldn't be affected by that.


Whaen you say an easy way to see the retrace is to look into the lens, isn't it easily noted on the screen? Since you've seen it on a number of G70's, I'm more curious than ever to check mine.*
Bruce,


Any idea what changes were made on the 1.13 version?


Why is it hard on the projector, 85hz is still only 63.5khz.


You should be able to see the retrace lines on the screen if it's almost completely dark.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Steve Smith_
*Bruce,


Any idea what changes were made on the 1.13 version?


Why is it hard on the projector, 85hz is still only 63.5khz.


You should be able to see the retrace lines on the screen if it's almost completely dark.*
I'm really not sure what they did between 1.12 and 1.13 because I really don't notice any difference, but whatever it is, it's meant to improve setting registration. Maybe it just corrects a bug that if you don't use the projector with a particular setup you would never have the problem. As I'm sure you know, the "real" difference is between 1.03 and 1.10, there are MANY improvements.


As for 85hz, just like in a regular computer monitor, higher refresh rates put a load on the horizontal deflection circuitry. It's not that it doesn't work, but it's like a car, if you go 60mph all the time the car will wear out in a certain amount of time and you can go 120mph, which will wear out the same car faster. I'm not sure that's the best analogy, but my eyes are starting to close and it's the best example I can think of now.


----------



## Rob Dingen

Hi


Back to the Sharpness of the G70.

I now for shure if you run it at a lower refresh rate the picture would be a lot sharper.

Also if you run it on 1440x960 48Hz the picture wil be more 3D and better looking then what you have now.

That te scanlines where not very wel visable still bothers me I did see a G70 with 8000 hours setup with a PSM-1 at 1024x768 on a 16:9 screen with scanlines at 2x screenwide.

I now still doubt that you had the best 8" setup avalible at the moment and it's not the type of projectors because they belong to the best out there.


Rob


----------



## Steve Smith

I agree that generally speaking the lower refresh rate should be sharper. Last night I began setting up for [email protected] After focusing was completed on the green gun I compared the sharpness at 72 and 85. I can't see a noticeable difference in sharpness between the two. I looked at 48hz a couple of years ago and found the flickering bothersome. Based on your recommendation I'll look at it again and report back.


----------



## Guy Kuo

Now it's Steve's machine's turn to be roasted. Eh?


----------



## WanMan

Guy, we roast everybody! Its in our nature to scrutinize.


----------



## David F

Fabulous comparison, everyone! Kudos all around.


----------



## Bart Tichelman

FWIW, when I reduced the refresh rate to 48Hz from 72Hz (both at 1280 x 720) on my Sony D50, the image improved AND the retrace problem was significantly reduced. I don't notice a flicker at all, and I've never had anyone comment on it in ~2 years of use.


----------



## Curt Palme

I smell a rematch..


Curt


----------



## Steve Smith

Just took another look at 48hz. Flickering is still bothersome. It's especially noticeable on bright scenes, pans, and on the desktop. I can't see any difference in the retrace lines either.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by Curt Palme_
*I smell a rematch..
*
I told Steve to load that thing in the car and we could do it at my house. 


Actually, it isn't a rematch, but a couple of the guys will be coming to my house tomorrow to see if my dark theater room and Firehawk make much difference. I have been doing a little bit of testing and I think there is some improvement, but we'll have to see what they think. I tested with the beginning of LOTR and the scene with Gollum in the cave looks much better than what I remember it looking like on the 11k at Steve's place. The whole front half of my room is black velvet at this point. Well, except for the ceiling that is dark purple as is most of the rest of the room except for the back wall that has some velvet that is said to be black but isn't as black as the other stuff I have.


I can't recall if anybody was using their laptop in Steve's room when we watched the beginning of LOTR on the G70. That is all it took to brighten the blacks on the screen.


If they want to and have time we may even watch a movie (Is that allowed?) and see how we feel once we get into things.


--Darin


----------



## Steve Smith

The 182lb monster hasn't been down from the ceiling since I originally installed it almost 4 years ago.


I'm looking forward to seeing your HT tomorrow, maybe you can give us a sampling of that 3D system.


Actually watch a movie? What did you have in mind?


----------



## WanMan

I would have thought it easier (on the back) to simply install black velveteen on all the walls/ceiling, doors at Steve's place.


Steve, how did you get it down? Certainly not by yourself.


----------



## Steve Smith

Darin's just messin with me. There's no way in hell I'm pulling the G70 down and taking to his house.


----------



## Energeezer

Well not to brag or anything but my weight training partner and myself hoisted a Marquee 8500 up to a four point unistrut mout by ourselves after a 1 3/4 hour shoulder workout.

OK I'm braggin


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by Steve Smith_
*Actually watch a movie? What did you have in mind?*
Here are some I was thinking about:


From the HTPC:


"The Fifth Element" in HD


From D-Theater:


"X-Men 2"

"Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai"

"Fight Club"

"The League of Extraordinary Gentleman"

"The Ninth Gate"

"Kiss of the Dragon"

"Stir of Echoes"


From HD tape:


"A Clockwork Orange" (not sure if this recording is good, though)


Unfortunately, I missed recording the HD version of "Die Another Day" to my PC and now my Dish5000 has been disabled. From the HTPC I could use the ISCO II anamorphic lens, but I don't have a scaler yet that will allow me to do that with D-Theater tapes. I'm not sure if I like things better with that lens on there or not, though.


I would probably lean toward "X-Men 2" if you guys are interested. Is that a good one for variety? I haven't seen it, but I think the first one had some good variety for bright and dark.


I can show you a little bit from the 3D system, also. I'll probably want to wait until after we check other things out, as I don't expect things to be quite as 3D as something with active glasses like this system.


--Darin


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Energeezer_
*Well not to brag or anything but my weight training partner and myself hoisted a Marquee 8500 up to a four point unistrut mout by ourselves after a 1 3/4 hour shoulder workout.

OK I'm braggin*
Am I missing something here. While I don't do shoulder workouts, because I have a bad back, me and a friend of mine often lift G70's up to unistrut mounts. The G70 is heavier than the M8500 by 20 to 25 pounds. I once even had my wife help me hang a G70 (just the two of us), but it had the lenses removed first. When she was young, she lived on a farm and used to sling bails of hay into the barn loft. Should I be braggin about it?


----------



## ChrisWiggles

"Actually watch a movie? "


BLASPHAMY!!


----------



## ChrisWiggles

apparantly I can't spall.


----------



## Steve Smith

My vote would be to watch X2.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Fifth element? I don't think I've ever seen that one. 


I actually vote for Ghost Dog. I have no idea what the PQ is like, from my recollection, not the greatest? But a fascinating film.


The others are ok by me too, though dunno if I'll be able to stay to watch an entire movie. I have some other movies I might need to see on Sat before they skip town.


----------



## WanMan

The Ninth Gate is very good with dark darks and bright backgrounds. I usually bring this DVD with me to meets (when I remember).


----------



## Energeezer

Quote:

Am I missing something here. While I don't do shoulder workouts, because I have a bad back, me and a friend of mine often lift G70's up to unistrut mounts. The G70 is heavier than the M8500 by 20 to 25 pounds. I once even had my wife help me hang a G70 (just the two of us), but it had the lenses removed first. When she was young, she lived on a farm and used to sling bails of hay into the barn loft. Should I be braggin about it?
Well yes I think you should brag. While I won't say hoisting the 8500 was a near death experience I wouldn't say it was a piece of cake either. Maybe i shouldn't workout first. Here is a link to a pic of me at my last contest.

http://www.cbbf.net/events/1999_cana...onships_03.htm 


My name is Steve and won the Welterweight DIV.

Apparently your wife will kick my ass. LOL


----------



## QQQ

I often lower 9" CRT's all by myself as a person is upgrading to digital. My favorite technique is to simply loosen the bolts until they crash to the ground. We usually take pictures and have a party to celebrate another CRT departure and bringing a new digital into the world. Occasionally if it's something like a G-90, I give it special treatment and lower it manually and let it live out the rest of it's life at my home like a good racing horse in retirement.


----------



## Energeezer

QQQ in thier right mind would replace a G-90 with a digital?


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Energeezer_
*Well yes I think you should brag. While I won't say hoisting the 8500 was a near death experience I wouldn't say it was a piece of cake either. Maybe i shouldn't workout first. Here is a link to a pic of me at my last contest.

http://www.cbbf.net/events/1999_cana...onships_03.htm 


My name is Steve and won the Welterweight DIV.

Apparently your wife will kick my ass. LOL*
Steve,


Did you say hoist? If you did, that's cheating, we lifted it up. You're right, must be the workout, I keep saying that exercise is bad, so I avoid it whenever I can.


Bruce


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by QQQ_
*I often lower 9" CRT's all by myself as a person is upgrading to digital. My favorite technique is to simply loosen the bolts until they crash to the ground. We usually take pictures and have a party to celebrate another CRT departure and bringing a new digital into the world. Occasionally if it's something like a G-90, I give it special treatment and lower it manually and let it live out the rest of it's life at my home like a good racing horse in retirement.*
How many G90's have you saved? I run a rescue operation, I think I can find good homes for them.


----------



## QQQ

One of my customers passed away and I made a promise to him as he was on his death bed that I would take care of his G-90 and watch over it. The second was from a customer that upgraded to a smaller digital to make his wife happy. The two of them (G-90's) now keep each other company and are like siblings. There's just no way I'd break them up, I think it would be too traumatic for them.


----------



## techman707

I understand.


----------



## deronmoped

Rainbows?


How bad were the rainbows in this shoot out? As soon as I heard about them, the shootout was over for me. I read that one reviewer found them annoying. Are they not a issue? How can anyone that has seen them sit through a movie and enjoy it? I experiance them and after that all I did was try not to move my eyes or head as not to take the chance of seeing them.


Let me know when there is a shootout with a PJ that does not do rainbows.


Deron.


----------



## Kamel407

Can you guys tell me what the current street price is of the Sony G70 and the Sharp Z11000. Wouldn't this also come into play for someone who is looking to make their first PJ purchase?


Thanks,


Kamel407


----------



## WanMan

Kamel407, the 11000 is a Japanese model. You would be looking for the 12000 model if you were wishing a local )American) warranty with your purchase. Since I do not know of the actual _street pricing_ I can only offer a dated 'guess', which is roughly about $6500-7000 for the 11000 from Japan, and about $7500-8500 for the 12000 in the USA.


My concern is that the last time I ventured onto the Sharp USA website I could not find a resource to find 'authorized' SharpVision dealers. If I go onto Videogon, there is someone selling the 12000 below $8K, but I, personally, don't trust the person, and as I am unable to verify the company I cannot determine if they are authorized or not.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by deronmoped_
*Rainbows?


How bad were the rainbows in this shoot out? As soon as I heard about them, the shootout was over for me. I read that one reviewer found them annoying. Are they not a issue? How can anyone that has seen them sit through a movie and enjoy it? I experiance them and after that all I did was try not to move my eyes or head as not to take the chance of seeing them.


Let me know when there is a shootout with a PJ that does not do rainbows.*
This is completely fair, but I was thinking about this the other day. I find it interesting that many of us with DLP projectors have had well over 100 people who have seen our projectors and for most of them not a single person who didn't already know about rainbows has mentioned them. I find it interesting that when people from this forum or even the other forums view these projectors they see rainbows, but for the general population very few of them see these. And I'm even counting much slower wheels than the 5x on my 11k. My Sharp M20x had a 3x wheel and I had one person mention something about some flashes one time. That is it after large numbers of guests and the only other people who have seen them had already read about them.


One difference might be that we look at test patterns. Curt didn't see rainbows until we put test patterns up.


I would be willing to bet that if you went to the average DLP owner with a 5x machine who has had it for more than a year and mentioned color flashes they wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about. I'm not trying to make this a rainbow argument, just pointing out that there seems to be a huge divide. I think this is one reason that TI hasn't been more concerned about this issue. It just seems that it hasn't had a huge effect on their sales since most people don't even know about them after extended viewing.


I know that Guy feels that the incidence of rainbows goes down quite a bit after a little while.


We'll do one of these shootouts with an LCOS or 3 chip DLP eventually.
Quote:

_Originally posted by Kamel407_
*Can you guys tell me what the current street price is of the Sony G70 and the Sharp Z11000. Wouldn't this also come into play for someone who is looking to make their first PJ purchase?*
I've heard that a refurbished G90 can be had for about $10k. However, I think you need to consider that there is going to be a lot more spent than that to get one of those setup and looking good. That may be partially sweat equity (do it yourself), but with an 11k/12k many people are finding that the projector, a mount, a $350 High Power screen, a $200 or $300 DVD player, and then an HD receiver is about all they need. I am happy that I hardly have to use my HTPC anymore and consider that a large positive. I will probably get an external scaler at some point for using an anamorphic lens, but it isn't required.


--Darin


----------



## WanMan

Darin, I remember when Terry (Chuchuf) kept telling me he observed something he called a lightning bolt across the scree. He previously stated he never observed DLP rainbows, but when I asked him to describe the 'lightning bolt' (he was seeing it on the NEC HT1000) is was, without a doubt, DLP rainbows.


My point is simple: not everyone knows what DLP rainbows are, and not everyone knows that what they are seeing are a) attributing it to the projector, and b) what they may be seeing is what we all affectionately refer to as DLP rainbows.


Ignorance and education.


PS I didn't even know what a DLP rainbow looked like under I described, as Terry did, what I was seeing and someone on AVS pointed out it was DLP rainbows. Thankfully I had the nerve to ask.


----------



## Kamel407

Quote:

I've heard that a refurbished G90 can be had for about $10k. However, I think you need to consider that there is going to be a lot more spent than that to get one of those setup and looking good. That may be partially sweat equity (do it yourself), but with an 11k/12k many people are finding that the projector, a mount, a $350 High Power screen, a $200 or $300 DVD player, and then an HD receiver is about all they need. I am happy that I hardly have to use my HTPC anymore and consider that a large positive. I will probably get an external scaler at some point for using an anamorphic lens, but it isn't required.
Oh I was thinking about going with either a


Sony G70

or

Marquee 8xxx


definitely not a G90 though since I want to buy a good used CRT for $1200 or below


I'll go DIY route for the screen for under $100

Progressive Scan DivX/DVD Player for under $100

I have an Xbox

and I have Brighthouse HDTV/Digital Service already

I also own an old Sony Surround Sound system which will get me by

the SONY HCD-541


So hopefully a Basic HT package for under $2000 with shipping


----------



## GScott

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*

I've heard that a refurbished G90 can be had for about $10k. However, I think you need to consider that there is going to be a lot more spent than that to get one of those setup and looking good. That may be partially sweat equity (do it yourself), but with an 11k/12k many people are finding that the projector, a mount, a $350 High Power screen, a $200 or $300 DVD player, and then an HD receiver is about all they need. I am happy that I hardly have to use my HTPC anymore and consider that a large positive. I will probably get an external scaler at some point for using an anamorphic lens, but it isn't required.


--Darin*
So for $10k plus $1-2k for HTPC/DVD/Scaler plus a nice screen you could have what many say is the best video on the planet. Plus the ability to display 1080p. Can the 11k/12k display 1080p natively?


I agree that digitals are progressing quickly but it's one thing to have a picture comparable to a nice 8" CRT but something entirely different to have a digital that even matches the picture quality of the G90. I've read others quoting Sony as saying that the Qualia is still about 4 generations away from matching the G90.


Assuming a digital meets or exceeds the picture quality of the G90 how much will it cost? If current and past history is an indication then it will sell for at least $20k. At that point why would I pay twice as much for something that is only the same quality. And before anyone tries to bring up that CRT's need constant tweaking/adjustment I would suggest that they do a search and read William Phelp's comments about a professionally setup G90 needing little or no tweaking as the CRT's age.


I admit that I was willing to spend $7-10k on a new digital to replace my XG but I think when the time comes I will most likely replace it with a G90.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by WanMan_
*My point is simple: not everyone knows what DLP rainbows are*
I understand that, but when I asked my guests I didn't ask them if they saw rainbows. I would ask them if they saw anything they didn't expect. And the polls on the forums have been about whether people complained about rainbows or flashes or anything like that, from what I recall. The only person who didn't know about rainbows who ever said anything to me mentioned that he saw a few flashes during the movie.
Quote:

_Originally posted by Kamel407_
*Oh I was thinking about going with either a


Sony G70*
Sorry, for some reason I registered G90. If you want price/performance and don't count convenience and being able to use some of the latest input devices (like DVI and HDMI), then CRT will be your best bet for quite a while. There probably isn't even much point in doing a shootout between CRT and digital if they have to be the same price. Especially the same price when going with used pricing for the CRT and new pricing for the digital. The market values convenience and small size and digital owners have to pay for that whether they value it or not. That is the market.


--Darin


----------



## Kamel407

Quote:

Sorry, for some reason I registered G90. If you want price/performance and don't count convenience and being able to use some of the latest input devices (like DVI and HDMI), then CRT will be your best bet for quite a while. There probably isn't even much point in doing a shootout between CRT and digital if they have to be the same price. Especially the same price when going with used pricing for the CRT and new pricing for the digital. The market values convenience and small size and digital owners have to pay for that whether they value it or not. That is the market.
Not worried about it at all, I have been doing research on purchasing my first PJ since December, and just this week I came across CRT


I figure if there is a shootout between a G70 which I CAN afford and a Z12000 which I CAN'T afford and the picture is comparable then CRT is the way to go.


My search is Best Bang for the Buck

Ideally I want to find a PJ for under $1000

I figure with patience I can find a G70 or 8500 for this price.


I can deal with component or S-Video since all of my current devices don't go beyond that technology


Kamel407


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by GScott_
*So for $10k plus $1-2k for HTPC/DVD/Scaler plus a nice screen you could have what many say is the best video on the planet. Plus the ability to display 1080p.*
Yep. And I bet I could have one installed within 2 weeks if I wanted it. But I haven't. There are many reasons. I would get great video in one room with reinforcements added to my ceiling and a huge projector up there that would dominate my room (unless I cut a hole in the ceiling). As it is I get video in at least 5 different places. I just move my projector. I have the place for the big crowds of 30+, a place for the small groups in a dark theater room, a way to watch from bed, outdoor theater at 16' wide for watching movies in the summer, something to take to friends houses, etc.

And I get pretty bright images when I want them in different places without an expensive screen. I am not willing to give those things up at all.


Yes, a 20 lb projector that had the same images as a G90 would sell for a lot more than a G90. Many will be confused by that. I'm not, but then I value some of the things I get with my digital that I cannot get with a CRT.


Also, it could be that it will be a while before a digital matches a G90. However, that doesn't preclude the case where a G90 cannot match a digital before that. What I mean by this is that the argument for matching a G90 is that it has to be able to do everything a G90 can do. However, the digitals will be able to do some things the G90 can't way before they at least match them in every category. Such as, being bright enough that they can be used with a gray screen that significantly lowers the washout effects from a room and at the same time having higher ANSI CR than the G90. Any real room has reflections and I am pretty confident that the G90 doesn't even have as much ANSI CR as some digitals even today. So, you combine the gray screen with high ANSI CR in the future and you end up being able to hold the blacks in mixed scenes extrememly well. My guess is that nobody would complain about the G90 ANSI CR currently, but once the digitals get very close to the G90 level in other categories I think people will see that there was room for improvement in the instantaneous CR that people see from the screen in many scenes from a G90. Also, I think there are some installations where a Qualia would look better than a G90. Not the videophile black rooms, but there are enough people out there who will value the huge screens that projector can drive with its high pixel count combined with high brightness.


My belief is that a 1080p 3 chip DLP will change a lot of people's opinions. But they won't be cheap, as you say.


--Darin


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kamel407_
*Ideally I want to find a PJ for under $1000

I figure with patience I can find a G70 or 8500 for this price.
*
I don't know what you will be able to find one for, but one thing to keep in mind is that it sounds like Steve really had that G70 setup well. You may want to consider getting a professional calibration or just understanding that you might not be able to get it setup as well as he did. Especially without getting some calibration equipment.


It does sound like a CRT would be a good choice for you. If you were going to look the digital direction then I think the upcoming InFocus 4805 might be a good one to look at for under $1500. With the Faroudja DCDi that would help with your s-video input and help make your DVDs look good. You would probably want to consider a much bigger viewing ratio than the 1.5x screen width or so that we have been talking about here, though. Probably at least 2.0x.


--Darin


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Quote:

I figure if there is a shootout between a G70 which I CAN afford and a Z12000 which I CAN'T afford and the picture is comparable then CRT is the way to go.


My search is Best Bang for the Buck

Ideally I want to find a PJ for under $1000

I figure with patience I can find a G70 or 8500 for this price.


I can deal with component or S-Video since all of my current devices don't go beyond that technology
Kamel: During this shootout though, Steve's G70 was in very good condition with relatively low hours. You will have a tough time finding a G70/8500/B808 or similar 8inEM machine for 1K that is in decent condition. Minty ones would be more like 3.5K, ones with wear more like 2K. A g70 is a LC, color filtered, 8in EM machine, and a damn nice one. Ebay units can be in pretty unusable condition sometimes... A heavily worn machine would not have been a fair match against the Sharp DLP.


S-video is not really appropriate to use for one of these units, you really need to feed them high quality video from a scaler or HTPC. And they do not take component video, but RGB. You will at least need a transcoder, and preferably just use an HTPC to scale up the video to higher resolutions. I'm not sure if the G70 takes component, the manual I'm looking at says it does not, but I had the impression that it, like the G90, did. But most all CRTs don't have component video inputs, just RGB (and s-video/composite, but you don't want to use those).


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Ok, my memory was correct, indeed the G70 does have component inputs. I thought it did...


----------



## Kamel407

I was looking at this site for the G70 info

http://www.mindspring.com/~jonfoulke.../SonyG70Q.html 


The wonderful thing is that I've never seen a projected image other than a movie theater so I think the WOW effect will last a long time no matter what I purchase.


Right now I'm looking at CRT because of the quality and the life.

Now that I know you can get so much life out of a CRT, I don't think there are many DLP/LCD/LCOS projectors I would even think about anymore.


----------



## QQQ

Just a note. I don't know where the 10K number is coming from for a G-90, but last time I checked, which was quite recent, no way you can get a refurb for 10K. Try 20K.


----------



## RobertWood

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kamel407_

I've never seen a projected image other than a movie theater


Now that I know you can get so much life out of a CRT, I don't think there are many DLP/LCD/LCOS projectors I would even think about anymore.
When you say a big consideration for you is how much life you can get out of it, there are some things to consider. Do you mean how long is it going to last without any need for repair? CRT projectors are not exactly like consumer TV sets. Those, even the el cheapo ones, do seem to go on working forever. But CRT projectors can and do occasionally experience failures of one sort or another. And depending on what that is, it can be a very expensive proposition. One long time and well known forum member bought a Barco 1209 that was in excellent condition and working perfectly. About a week after he got it home and set it up, it died on him. He got shed of it and last I heard the next owner still had not been able to get it repaired.

Take a look at all the threads on this forum that have subject lines like "my so and so just took a crap. what do I do now"?


The CRT believers here will now point out to you that I'm full of s**t. That these things are built like tanks, that they last and last, and when they do go out they can be pretty easily fixed. Sure, Curt Palme can fix em. But you and me aint Curt Palme.


I'm not trying to discourage you from choosing a CRT projector But if you're going to get into this, I'm just crazy enough to think that you need to go into it with realistic expectations. And before you spend thousands of dollars on anything, it might be wise to do some more researching. Learn what's involved in setting one up. And it wouldn't hurt to get opportunities to see and compare some of this stuff before buying.

I know. They'll probably tell you I'm full of s**t for saying this too. That DLP's and the rest are not even an option. But not all of us agree with that.


Bob


----------



## QQQ

Bob,


I've never understod why some over here feel the need to exagerrate the reliability of CRT. All one needs to do is look at the first page over here to seee that a large percentage of the threads are always related to service issues. It's like anything else, it's a crap shoot. You can buy used and go for 5 years without trouble or need a repair the week after you buy it that costs more than what you paid for the projector.


Projectors, BOTH digital AND CRT have always been service prone compared to electronics like regular TV's or amplifiers etc.


----------



## Kamel407

that is always a concern, which is why I am looking for the best bang for the cheapest buck just incase something like that happens


Which is why I will search for sub $1000


----------



## RobertWood

I've never understood how slave laborers in China can build a TV set that Walmart sells for $49.95, and it lasts forever. But a $10-20,000 video projector supposedly built with all the very best of components can start spitting fire the first year out of the chute. Go figure.


But they might have a point about one thing, Q. Those little digitals are probably frying their little guts out inside. I've never kept one for more than a year so don't know.


----------



## ChrisWiggles

CRTs rarely fail, and because of the immense knowledge here, most problems that arise are easily fixed. Varies by model, but most are very modular, and some don't even really need tools to fix, you can just swap in a new board.


When digitals fail, then what? You can't fix it, and nobody around the forums can help you fix it. If it's even worth fixing you'd have to send it away and pay some godawful price to have it repaired if it's not under warranty.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kamel407_
*that is always a concern, which is why I am looking for the best bang for the cheapest buck just incase something like that happens


Which is why I will search for sub $1000*
Since I own 3-G70's and recently sold a G90, I've been reading this whole exchange with amusement. I wouldn't count on seeing a "decent" (5000 hours or less) G70, 8500, or for that matter, E8000 for $1,000 or less. If you did see one of these projectors for that amount, it would probably be an Ebay swindle, or just as bad, not worth the shipping cost.


Low hour CRT projectors are pretty reliable. I think most of the problems seen with CRT projectors are caused by inexperienced people playing with them. If you're REALLY looking for a decent LOW HOUR CRT projector, plan on spending AT LEAST $3500. Don't count on finding a G90 that's worth owning for $10,000 either. In fact, I would be very leary of someone selling a G90 for $10,000.


Good Luck with your search though,


Bruce


----------



## Kamel407

Quote:

_Originally posted by techman707_
*Since I own 3-G70's and recently sold a G90, I've been reading this whole exchange with amusement. I wouldn't count on seeing a "decent" (5000 hours or less) G70, 8500, or for that matter, E8000 for $1,000 or less. If you did see one of these projectors for that amount, it would probably be an Ebay swindle, or just as bad, not worth the shipping cost.


Low hour CRT projectors are pretty reliable. I think most of the problems seen with CRT projectors are caused by inexperienced people playing with them. If you're REALLY looking for a decent LOW HOUR CRT projector, plan on spending AT LEAST $3500. Don't count on finding a G90 that's worth owning for $10,000 either. In fact, I would be very leary of someone selling a G90 for $10,000.


Good Luck with your search though,


Bruce*
This is awesome I love a good challenge!!

I'm the king when it comes to finding good deals.

By the way where are you in NY and FL?


----------



## RobertWood

Haha. If he's close to Campbell Hall you might be in business.


----------



## darinp2

I thought I heard someone at the last shootout mention they knew of a refurb G90 for $10k down in the Bay Area or something, but that is just my memory, so it could of course be wrong. Heck, I read G90 when somebody wrote G70, so what do I know?  Maybe they said G70, also.


--Darin


----------



## Steve Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*I thought I heard someone at the last shootout mention they knew of a refurb G90 for $10k down in the Bay Area or something, but that is just my memory, so it could of course be wrong. Heck, I read G90 when somebody wrote G70, so what do I know?  Maybe they said G70, also.


--Darin*
I heard that as well. It came from the Magnolia folks in attendance. They said the G90 was their store demo unit but didn't know any more about it's condition or hours. $10k seems like a great price though. I wonder if it's still available?


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kamel407_
*This is awesome I love a good challenge!!

I'm the king when it comes to finding good deals.

By the way where are you in NY and FL?*
I'm In Coral Springs, FL, but I'm leaving for NY tomorrow.


----------



## WanMan

QQQ, a quick look on Videogon shows someone (familiar) selling G90's for under $15K, but just a expensive in my home.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Steve Smith_
*I heard that as well. It came from the Magnolia folks in attendance. They said the G90 was their store demo unit but didn't know any more about it's condition or hours. $10k seems like a great price though. I wonder if it's still available?*
Yeah, they've probably been demo'ing it for 5 years and has 10,000 hours on it. I'll tell you one thing, unlike a G70, I sure wouldn't want to have to pay for new tubes in a G90. The new tubes could cost you close to $10,000 (heh, heh).


----------



## Chuchuf

That G90 on Videogon is sold as of yesterday (at least the one I had).


Set one up today at 1080p for their 1080i HD source material. Smooth, very smooth looking.


Terry


----------



## WanMan

It wasn't Darin, was it?


----------



## QQQ

WanMan,


I may have been talking different lingo than Darin. By refurbed, I meant new refurb from the (Sony) factory. And as far as I am aware the only one that is still selling those is Benjamin Woo for ~20K.


Sounds like someone got quite a PJ from Terry for


----------



## jsaliga

Quote:

_Originally posted by QQQ_
*You can buy used and go for 5 years without trouble or need a repair the week after you buy it that costs more than what you paid for the projector.*
I'm painfully aware of that. The Barco 1209s I owned blew the HV 20 hours after it was setup.


It is a crapshoot. The three other CRT projectors I owned never gave me any problems in years of ownership. But it only takes one.


--Jerome


----------



## QQQ

Yes Jerome,


But surely all you had to do was post the problem here and the immense knowledge of the board would have quickly brought about an easy fix .
Quote:

_Originally posted by ChrisWiggles_
*CRTs rarely fail, and because of the immense knowledge here, most problems that arise are easily fixed.*


----------



## GScott

Quote:

_Originally posted by QQQ_
*Yes Jerome,


But surely all you had to do was post the problem here and the immense knowledge of the board would have quickly brought about an easy fix .*
How about the thread in the >3500 forum in which a Sharp 12k's iris had already failed. How much do you think that would cost after the warranty had expired


----------



## QQQ

But I'm not saying projectors rarely break and that when they do it's usually an easy fix. That's the difference .


And I have no idea what it would cost to fix the iris on the Sharp.


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## WanMan

Someone else just posted their one-month old 12K DVI went on the fritz. Luckily, its under warranty or that could get expensive as well.


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## RobertWood

Oh how I long for the good ole days when they made stuff to last. And they made it all in the US of A. Yep. Just like Ampro.


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## QQQ

AmPro might not be the best example to use Bob .


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## WanMan

Bob, when were these good ole days? Was this before or after Columbus?


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## RobertWood

Oh, along about back THEN I guess.


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## WanMan

Its really too bad it was 16mm and not 35. I'd actually be interested in it for the novelty. Were you one of the early adopters of that thing? LOL


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## RobertWood

No. But I did own a hula hoop. And an erector set. The erector set was made of something they called metal. Mighty good stuff, that metal.


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## Kamel407

RobertWood does his converging with an abacus


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## WanMan

Now robert, I had my share of wooden toys, hehe. Link Tinker Toys and Lincoln Logs. LOL


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## RobertWood

But where are our manners? I'm afraid we've hijacked the blog thread. We better stop talking all this trash now, wanman, or they're gonna be telling you and me where to stick those toys.


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## WanMan

Stick those toys? Well, the wife is in firm control of the _projector_ and will not let anything happen until she is thoroughly entertained with it for the evening.


Seriously


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## RobertWood

It's a good thing the folks over here don't read the other forums. Because if they did, they would now be seeing that one of the long time AVS CRT projector die hards has now jumped ship altogether.

As I understand this it all began when his old ship would not fit the new boat dock and because of that he was forced to consider a newer, smaller ship. All pretty innocent stuff.

But now he's traded in the old ship and has started sailing the new ship (LCD no less). And boy is he now singing the praises of the enemy.

In fact, he's so big now on LCD that I'm thinking about dumping my DLP and getting me one too.


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## RobertWood

Whoops. My mistake. It is a DLP afterall. So now I can keep what I've got.


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## ChrisWiggles

OK STOP!!!


This thread is officially TOTALLY off-topic. Today Steve, Darin and I at Darin's blackened room with both a firehawk and a (highpower) did another viewing of the 12K. I will post here later with my impressions.


The final result was: I thought 3d effect was improved with less room spill, the ANSI contrast was better without the room spill (black velvet everywhere and painted black ceiling).


Pixels were roughly the same visibility, though they didn't bother me since no CRT to compare them.


Bad news: rainbows EVERYWHERE. At Steve's I saw them a few times, unintentionally, otherwise I had to go looking. In Darins dark room they were driving me bananas. I liked the grayhawk better than the firehawk which was a little too dim. The depth on the highpower was much better, and the image was much punchier. This, however, was at the cost of black levels, which were VERY good on the firehawk. However, after seeing film last night at the theater, the 12K on the highpower was still WAY better in black levels, and the benefits in depth and punch and brightness were better, IMO than the loss of deeper blacks on the firehawk.


Overall, the results were pretty similar to at steve's. I actually would prefer steve's room because the rainbows in Darins dark room were very very distracting, MUCH moreso than at Steve's. I was surprised by this. Other than this, though, the picture was DAMn fine.

_Edit: I was in a rush and wrote grayhawk when I meant high-power. I can see why that was confusing. I've changed it so it's correct. Firehawk and highpower were the screens._


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## ChrisWiggles

I like how I just said "I will post here later with my impressions."


And then posted my impressions now. 


I am officially taking this thread back on-subject to the original shootout.


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## RobertWood

Please forgive wanman. He didn't mean to take the thread off topic. He promises not to do it again.


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## WanMan

Chris, I think you meant that you liked the Firehawk (1.35 gain) better than the Grayhawk (0.95 gain) because the Grayhawk made the picture too dim. Right? Also, I guess environment can affect DLP rainbow awareness, or maybe you just know now how to look for them subconsciouslessly.


BTW/OT, wife watched Operation Petticoat and Father Goose this evening, and is now watching Showtime's _L Word_.


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## deronmoped

Darin wrote:


"I am happy that I hardly have to use my HTPC anymore and consider that a large positive. I will probably get an external scaler at some point for using an anamorphic lens, but it isn't required".


I agree a HTPC can be a a pain in the ass right now, but as soon as they have a easy solution for all the problems associated with them, they will be hard to keep up with.


Imagine a HTPC that works perfect all the time (right now I have no problems with mine not unless I change something) with the ability to upgrade with a simple download. What standalone player will allow you to do that? Right now every time they come out with a better standalone player with better features, you have to get rid of the old one buy a new one and hook it up. Not alot of fun researching, shopping around, could end up with a bum one, different cables and then find out the controlls sucks or the remote sucks.


Here is some fun stuff I do like about my HTPC.


I have a three monitor desktop (two monitors and the PJ). I can start up the DVD let it go through all the warnings and junk, select the audio and whatever else I want to do on a monitor, pause it, when I'm ready to start the movie I fire up the PJ and just drag and drop the movie onto the movie screen. This allows me to keep my PJ running time a little lower and saves my friends from having to wait through all this.


The software DVD players are getting better, with more features all the time. Last time I upgraded it cost me $20.00 and took all of an hour to do it. And it worked flawlessly!


The only problem I can see is having a HTPC that is powerfull enough to do all the things that you will be able to do in the future. Might need a fifty gigahertz processor


Deron.


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## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by ChrisWiggles_
*I liked the grayhawk better than the firehawk which was a little too dim.*
Just so people don't get confused, this was the High Power that everybody liked better. I would say the 11k/12k with a High Power is one of the top digital setups going at the moment.


Sorry about the rainbows. Looks like you are going to have to steer clear of single chip DLP for a while.


And once again, we all had a fun time (if you don't count the rainbows ).

Quote:

_Originally posted by deronmoped_
*I agree a HTPC can be a a pain in the ass right now, but as soon as they have a easy solution for all the problems associated with them, they will be hard to keep up with.*
I know there are some advantages, but for me maybe it is the size that I have the most problem with. If I got one of the small ones maybe I wouldn't feel as bad about that part. My HTPC is just a pain in that department. And it doesn't seem like I am nearly as likely to get glitches and things on my standalone equipment as I am on the HTPC. Some of the issues with different decoders and things can take me a while to figure out.


Before people got here I changed my mind about using the anamorphic lens and the HTPC and about half an hour before people got here I went in my theater room to check the calibrations with the other devices for which I use ColorFacts on the PC. I went to boot the PC and found that I had a disk problem and couldn't even get past the BIOS, so that was out. Fortunately, we were still able to use the other devices and I just used some settings I had posted here a while back. Long story short, I was lucky and it was my 2nd hard drive that failed and my main drive was still okay. I swapped a new 2nd drive in and I'm back in business and I don't think I lost anything super important.

Quote:

_Originally posted by WanMan_
*Also, I guess environment can affect DLP rainbow awareness, or maybe you just know now how to look for them subconsciouslessly.*
My experience is that darker rooms and higher contrast ratios can show more rainbows (all else being equal), so I wasn't that surprised that Chris saw more in my room. I didn't expect them to be as bad as they turned out to be, though. I might have hoped that on a 2nd viewing like this he would have seen less even with the room effect. I don't think I saw any all night long.


--Darin


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## Guy Kuo

Time is also a factor with rainbows. You first learn to see them and then become very keen at noticing them. After 40 or 50 hours of DLP viewing, you still see them with your eyes, but they become just a new type of blur that your brain ignores when your eyes move. I suspect a lot of people quit training their brains to DLP rainbows while they are still haven't developed the ability to ignore them. Stop viewing at that phase and you're stuck at the good at seeing but bad at ignoring phase. Then you become a rainbow zealot. It takes time, more than most non-DLP owners have in front of a DLP machine, to retrain your brain.


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## Steve Smith

Thanks for having me over Darin. Now I know why I had to go to 2 different Joann fabric stores to find some black velvet. Darin bought it all and lined his whole room with it . I love the effect it creates. Darin's certainly taking advantage of the portability of the 11k. He's got a screen in just about every room. Can't do that with my G70.


Darin's got the 11k dialed in pretty well although at first before Chris showed up we did notice the color and black level was off. He made some adjustments and afterwards it was putting up some really nice looking images. There was definitely an improvement in ansi contrast due to Darin's black velvet room. Also noticecable was considerably less light scatter from the lens compared to my G70. This was pretty noticeable on scenes with bright backgrounds with dark foreground objects.


Saw more rainbows than at my house but this time I tried to ignore them to see if they would be something I could learn to live with. I was actually more bothered by the glowing screen at the beginning of LOTR and the haze or fog in dark scenes. This seemed to be slightly worse with the high power screen.


Overall I preferred the high power over the firehawk. The firehawk still looked good but brightness was marginal. I was sitting a little farther back than I was at my house. Pixels didn't bother me as much although I did see them a few times on white objects. I had already seen the 11k in Guy's black room. This experience was pretty much what I expecting so it didn't change my opinion. Overall I still prefer my CRT because the flaws it has annoy me less than the 11k's.


Steve


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## Guy Kuo

I've pretty much gone to choosing the projector to match the film at my place. If a film has a lot of dark scenes or 2.35 ratio, it definitely goes on the CRT. If it is one without lots of dark scenes, we put it on the NEC HT1000 DLP. Darin's Z11000 outperforms the HT1000, but even my lowly HT1000 is the preferred machine for movie viewing fairly frequently. Nice luxury to match the film to the projector which performs best for it. It's ironic given that HT1000 DLP was added up to served only as the regular TV to preserve the XG for film viewing.


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## WanMan

Darin, Steve, exactly which velvet product are you using?


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## Art Sonneborn

Quote:

_Originally posted by Steve Smith_
*Overall I still prefer my CRT because the flaws it has annoy me less......


Steve*


I had to laugh when I saw this part of Steve's post since this was the reason I stated that I went with the stacked CRT again



Art


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## Steve Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by WanMan_
*Darin, Steve, exactly which velvet product are you using?*
The stuff Joann's fabrics carries comes in two varieties. The black velvet is made out of a polyester or rayon based synthetic fiber and has a fairly thick pile. At certain angles it has a shine or sheen to it. I'm using this on the ceiling in front of my screen. The other stuff they carry is veleveteen. This is a much thinner material with low pile and is made from cotton. I just bought some of this for a screen masking project I'm working on.


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## deronmoped

Guy


When do you think you will have your HTPC up and running? Will you install the MP-1? I would be interested in what you think of it compared to what you have now. Also I would like to know what you think of the CLEV feature in PowerDVD, you could download that for free and try it out. WinDVD has a similar option.


Darin


That is another positive thing about the HTPC option, you can download the free trial version of software players, give them a try and then decide to buy.


Also you pointed out a nice thing about HTPC. Being modular, you can change out or upgrade different componets.


Deron.


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## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by WanMan_
*Darin, Steve, exactly which velvet product are you using?*
I have some of each. I had to go to multiple stores (multiple Jo-Anns and at least one Hancock's) to get enough. Some was $12.99 per yard and some was $16.99 and I had a coupon for some of it, but not all. I've been adding more over time and it didn't turn out to be cheap.


I've tried multiple things and nothing has come close to velvet. I bought a "black" carpet, but that looks gray next to black velvet and I've now completely covered it with velvet. At the back of the room I have some velvet type sheet stuff that someone said he has used in his room, but it also looks gray next to regular black velvet. It does come in stick-on strips so that you can get it flat, but isn't black enough for me and I don't want to permanently change the room to black. I also bought a huge backdrop that was advertised as black for a backdrop for shooting pictures, but it is also gray when put next to black velvet. So, I ended up wasting a reasonable amount of money trying to find something other than this expensive velvet.


The paint I have on the walls is a dark purple that looks pretty dark when there isn't too much light in the room, but has a nice purple look to it with light directly on it. When I sell the house I will take all the velvet out and shine a light on the wall and open a blackout blind so that potential buyers will see that the wall color can have a nice look to it with light and isn't the harshness of black that will turn off large portions of the house buying population. The dark carpets are also temporary and will come out for showings if I sell the house.


--Darin


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## WanMan

My biggest concern with moving away from a [darkly] painted wall/ceiling is to now get away from sheen. Using the flattest paint doesn't seem to help any and the way Steve describes the velveteen its got a sheen, too.


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## deronmoped

I was thinking of ways to stop the reflected light and one that I came up with works real good, you use a fabric that will let some of the light through. I have used trunk liner, comes in black, is about $3.00 a yard, looks nice too.


Another thing you can do is fold the fabric, this will cause the light to bounce off in a different direction.


Deron.


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## JBJR

I get my velvet on ebay, there is a woman who sells it there regularly. I get the heavy furniture grade cotton type. And it's cheaper than the fabric stores and no sheen.


John


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## dokworm

If you are buying a lot of velvet, you can go straight to the fabric manufacturer and buy it by the large roll. Costs about 6-8 bucks a yard.

Hey go to alibaba.com and get a consortium together and import your own


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## WanMan

Well, I'd be doing the entire room. That's about +500 Square-feet. John, care to offer up an ebay sales ad ID or the contact info of the seller?


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## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Guy Kuo_
*It's NOT the AKB line itself that is the problem. That lies above the image area. The problem is that the RETRACE of the AKB line is curved and dips downward into the image area. It is particularly problematic on Steve's setup because his HTPC drives the projector at a higher scan rate. The higher the scan rate, the further down the retrace dips down into the image. It's pretty faint and you'll learn to ignore it. Then somebody like me comes along and mischievously points it out and for the next few days you keep looking at it. Kind of like calling out "RAINBOWS!" every time someone in the audience sees one. Before long all you hear about are rainbows. Like any new and novel stimulus input, your brain is initially very good at paying attention to them once you reallize they are there. With time, they become old hat. I see them readily but my brain no longer pay any attention.


If you mask the AKB retrace, you cover top part of the picture as well, unless you do something like Chris suggests for DVD's or can coax your G70 into working correctly without the AKB active like Lion has. We're stuck on Steve's because the bias and cuts dont' have enough range to operate the projector without the AKB. Perhaps with Techman's info we can get that to work. Interesting that there are so many undocumented controls.*
I have been checking out the issue of the retrace lines entering picture area and have found that only if the picture isn't "shift"ed to the proper position with that problem occur. It isn't related to the AKB and will appear even with it off.


BTW- It appears that the gain characteristics can be changed using Sony's Comm Control software using the RS-422 port. However, it isn't completely documented. They do make reference to it in the SM for a couple of adjustments that can ONLY be made with the RS-422 port.


When I get time, will explore it further.


Bruce


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## Guy Kuo

I'll have to have Steve take another look at this as well. The experience he and I have with G70's and D50's with this curved line into the image seems to be quite different from what you are seeing. I'm worried that we're talking about two different things.


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## techman707

I'm sure we're talking about the same thing. As the picture is shifted up, it will reach a point where retrace lines start to infringe on the active picture area. While if it's shifted very far up the retrace lines are obvious, if the shift is only slightly off, you will get a very light retrace that begins to show.


Bruce


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## Guy Kuo

The line we are talking about doesn't change as the image is shifted up and down, but arcs downward into the image area. Its ends are exactly at the start and end of the ABK line.


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## techman707

It sounds like what you are describing may not actually be a retrace line. If I understand you correctly, if it were to start on the left at the AKB line and end at the right of the AKB line, the point that infringes the most would be in the center of the screen (like a sagging line)? Would it show on a picture?


Bruce


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## Phil Smith

Guy,


When you first mentioned this, I looked very hard and couldn't find such a line in my picture. I don't know if it's what you're seeing or not, but I have often experienced what Bruce is talking about when shifting the image too far up.


----------



## Bart Tichelman

I am traveling this week, but when I get home on Friday I'll try and take a picture of the image displayed from my D50 that has a good example of this line.


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## BenY

That`s what it looks like on my NEC and i wish i could get rid of.One thing i can say,it started after a full system rest.So i think it may have to do with custom factory calibration within the service menu.


----------



## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bart Tichelman_
*I am traveling this week, but when I get home on Friday I'll try and take a picture of the image displayed from my D50 that has a good example of this line.*
Do you have this line on your projector also? Assuming it's the same line that Guy is talking about, it will be interesting to see a picture. I have 3 G70 and 2 D50's and have had many others and never had a problem with this line, unless it's the one I'm referring to.


Bruce


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## techman707

Quote:

_Originally posted by BenY_
*That`s what it looks like on my NEC and i wish i could get rid of.One thing i can say,it started after a full system rest.So i think it may have to do with custom factory calibration within the service menu.*
That's it, however, where is it in relation to the avtive picture area and aty what refresh rate?


----------



## Guy Kuo

Quote:

_Originally posted by techman707_
*It sounds like what you are describing may not actually be a retrace line. If I understand you correctly, if it were to start on the left at the AKB line and end at the right of the AKB line, the point that infringes the most would be in the center of the screen (like a sagging line)? Would it show on a picture?


Bruce*
Yes, it is a sagging, faint arc whose end points are exactly at the end points of the AKB line. The center of the arc infringes into the image area. We believe it to be the retrace of the AKB line, not a retrace of an image line.


I've seen the odd lines which appear if the image is shifted too far up or down. This doesn't look like those.


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## techman707

Guy,


Is the line the same as in the pix posted by BenY ? While it is always there, it shouldn't infringe onto the active picture area. That line IS different than the "retrace lines" that appear if the picture is not shifted to the proper position.


Once again, there is an adjustment that DOES NOT appear in the SM that is sometimes necessary when tubes are replaced that can affect the AKB. I've been looking for my notes and the additional documentation that I had when I attended the Sony training seminar back around 1996. There were MANY checks that were talked about that wasn't documented in the SM. Sony's manual's are the worst on the face of the earth and seem to get worse every year.


----------



## techman707

Guy (or Steve),


If I recall, the signal was from an HTPC, which I assume was with Power Strip software. I know that Steve said he was running at 85kHz refresh, but could you post the rest of the Power Strip info, like the porch timing, etc.? I want to be sure that I am reproducing the exact settings that Steve had, since it is possible to create timings in Power Strip that are really not correct.


Bruce


----------



## Guy Kuo

Yes, it looks like BenY's picture. The amount of sag worsens with increasing scan rate. At the higher rates used with HTPC's, the sag increases so much that it dips down into the active image area. Steve runs his machine at 85 Hz x 720 lines so really dips down on his G70.


I've sent a note to Steve to look back at this thread. We'll need him to give us the settings.


----------



## GScott

Quote:

_Originally posted by BenY_
*That`s what it looks like on my NEC and i wish i could get rid of.One thing i can say,it started after a full system rest.So i think it may have to do with custom factory calibration within the service menu.*
Ben,


Which NEC do you own? On my XG110 the AKB line is a very faint white line. It is completely absorbed by the black velvet that surrounds my screen. Even in complete darkness I cannot see it unless I move the velvet or look into the CRT's.


----------



## Guy Kuo

I just realized that Ben's is on a NEC. I haven't seen this on a NEC except for when the image is shifted too far up or down in the raster. Maybe I haven't been looking close enough for it.


----------



## techman707

I realized that Ben's pix was from an NEC, but since it's the same as what you described, I wanted to see if he could take a pix with it showing in the active picture area. I'm not sure if in his case it's actually in the picture, or he's just annoyed that it's there at the top of the screen. It seems that not only do the NEC's and Sony's share the same tubes, they may also share some of the same problems.


----------



## BenY

Hi,

I mostly use a squeezed picture but even on 4x3 picture the arched RGB is going through the top part of the picture,in squeeze mode its even worse because the AKB line is on the white part of the screen,but the arches are clearly visible in all conditions.


----------



## Steve Smith

Hi everyone,


Recently I've tried a bunch of different scan rates and it really doesn't matter what resolution or refresh rate I use. The lines are always there and sag about the same amount. If you're still interested I can post the powerstrip settings when I get home tonight.


Bruce, are you saying you're not seeing these lines on any of your G70's? Try pressing picture mute on the remote then look into the lenses. If AKB is enabled you should be able to clearly see both the main AKB and retrace lines. I can shift the image around all over the place but it doesn't change the visibility of AKB lines. The only way to get rid of them that I'm aware of is to disable AKB. For me this results in poor gray scale tracking and lower light output.


----------



## techman707

Steve,


This is getting curiouser and curiouser! While I can certainly see the lines looking into the tubes, NONE of my machines have the lines encrouching into the picture area, even with a full 4:3 image (blanking wide open of course). Something isn't right here.


If you have NO INPUT signal and put up a white field, can you still see it? Also, Change through the internal frequencies. If I had that happening, I would go crazy.


Ben,


When did you first notice it on your NEC?


----------



## ChrisWiggles

Quote:

curiouser


----------



## techman707

Guy, Steve,


I just finished checking it again. From the AKB line, the DIP of the line you're talking about drops to a maximum of about 40mm from the AKB line in the center. From that point, there is at least another 30 to 40mm BEFORE you would be into the picture, which is why I never saw the problem.



Bruce


----------



## Guy Kuo

Steve's drops at least a good 6 to 8 inches into the image. I've seen the same on D50's.


----------



## techman707

While I'm not sure what the problem is, I can assure you that something is wrong. Since I own and have worked on so many G70 and D50's and have never had this particular problem, out of curiosity I'm going to start a thread to find out how many other G70 and D50 owners might have this problem.


I'll post Ben's picture so they understand what I'm talking about.


Bruce


----------



## Steve Smith

Quote:

_Originally posted by Guy Kuo_
*Steve's drops at least a good 6 to 8 inches into the image. I've seen the same on D50's.*
I just measured it on the HD and PC inputs. The main AKB line is 2" above the screen. The retrace lines are about 3" into the active picture area at the center of the screen or about 5" below the main AKB line.


----------



## BenY

techman707,

I`m sure it started after i did a full system reset,and it show also on my second NEC projector,both are PG-6`s.


Yuval.


----------



## Mark_A_W

It's not something you can fix with RGB SHIFT plus some ZONE 1 is it?


Move ZONE 1 up and RGB SHIFT down to compensate, thus moving the raster + AKB upwards on the screen out of the way?


I'm sorry if these terms don't apply, I'm only familar with a 1251.


Maybe this is too simplistic...


Mark


----------

