# Top Ten Things You Need to Know About Cabling



## prepress

Hello,

Good points on cabling. I have the dreaded "technospaghetti" effect now, due to various factors, but all things considered it would probably not pay to bundle mine exactly like those in the picture you have there, especially since I may be changing them out and don't have ready access to the back of my equipment.

I will be pleasantly amazed if point #9 doesn't generate any controversy. To be sure, there are plenty of high-end cables that carry very high price tags and which I wouldn't buy even if the money were available; I have a hard time seeing spending four figures or more on a pair of interconnects. There are companies in the audiophile world that have reasonably-priced cables ("reasonable" may be relative, I admit); there are also the brands you mention. I have used several Blue Jeans products with no complaints, the only hiccup was one HDMI cable that failed. Even with that, depending upon what I needed I'd consider BJ again.

So again, good points.


----------



## Max Caliber

I would add an 11th, 12th and 13th line:


11 Add 12 to 24 inches at each end of the cables for service loops. This will allow the extraction of an item ( e.g. a pre-pro from a rack) without having to undo the entire setup. Especially true if you don't have easy access to the rear of the equipment rack. Also this could help if the speakers have to be moved somewhat from their original planned position.


12 Audio input cables should also be kept separate from speaker cables, never run them in close contact parallel to each other over long distances. This can actually cause a feedback loop resulting in the destruction of the audio amplifier. Again XLR cables offer much better rejection in this case. 


13 Beware of ground loops. Make sure the equipment grounds are all located at one point, (a star connection plan), don't have some equipment connecting off of a different power outlet from the other items. Sometimes this is unavoidable and again balanced XLR cables can greatly help in this area, the ground connection of the XLR connector (pin 1) is not really necessary and could be removed in really bad cases.


----------



## Kingcarcas

"and power cables. Measure twice, cut once." - That's the thing, who is cutting power cables? If they don't offer varying lengths you're SOL.

Kudos to SVS, $20 for their tidy cables, not too expensive when you know you're just paying for fashion.


----------



## blazar

complex cable management is only needed for more complex systems and when airflow issues might be involved. There is nothing technically wrong with technospaghetti. For those that will be changing out gear frequently, crazy numbers of wire ties will really slow you down.


----------



## prepress

blazar said:


> complex cable management is only needed for more complex systems and when airflow issues might be involved. There is nothing technically wrong with technospaghetti. For those that will be changing out gear frequently, crazy numbers of wire ties will really slow you down.


For me, the clutter slows me down on those unfortunate occasions I have to squeeze behind the setup. This is what the rear of things looked like two years ago; it's pretty much like that now.

One thing I had done before was to velcro the pairs of interconnect together; never did that after changing out the cables last year.


----------



## Skimanfz1

imagic said:


> 4. Practice good cable management; avoid creating a tangled mess of technospaghetti.


 
Why? Because it looks neater? Imagine trying to trace one of the 8 XLR connected cables in the illustration in that big fat bundle. Now imagine tracing the same cable hung loosely.


----------



## imagic

Skimanfz1 said:


> Why? Because it looks neater? Imagine trying to trace one of the 8 XLR connected cables in the illustration in that big fat bundle. Now imagine tracing the same cable hung loosely.


Lol, I actually swapped out that exact pre/pro and had to ruin what you see there (which I am not responsible for). Not my system, that's Theo Kalomirakis' rack. I did not put it back the way you see it, but that picture was chosen for its suitability for posting on the AVS homepage. As others mentioned in the comments, velcro is a better solution than zip ties. I was simply saying avoid tangled messes, so tracing that cable is easy.


----------



## HockeyoAJB

Skimanfz1 said:


> Why? Because it looks neater? Imagine trying to trace one of the 8 XLR connected cables in the illustration in that big fat bundle. Now imagine tracing the same cable hung loosely.


Labeling each cable at both ends or at least using various colors of tape to color code each cable helps tremendously, regardless of how neatly you arrange your cables. In some cases the cables themselves are offered in various colors.


----------



## witchdoctor

Here are some more economical cable choices:

http://audiophilereview.com/cables/5-cable-combos-that-wont-break-the-bank.html


----------



## dnoonie

imagic said:


> Cables are the glue that binds a system together. There's no need to spend a fortune, but it's a good idea to plan out your installation.
> 
> 
> 1. Make sure you know exactly how long each cable needs to be. That goes for speaker cables, interconnects, and power cables. Measure twice, cut once.
> 
> 4. Practice good cable management; avoid creating a tangled mess of technospaghetti.
> 
> 10. Are you building your room from scratch? Consider running all the cables you need in the walls or soffits.
> 
> Like AVS Forum on Facebook
> Follow AVS Forum on Twitter
> +1 AVS Forum on Google+


1. Good point if your setup is stable and going to be in use for 5 years without changes, I make changes about every 6 months or even more often when in that mode so I stopped cutting my cables to length a long time ago and I use standard lengths like 1' patch, 3' patch, 6' patch, 10' shorty, 25' run, 50' run, 100' run, 200' run, etc.. And as has already been mentioned I leave a courtesy loop at each end usually handy but not close to the gear.

4. Yes I do try to make the back of my equipment rack look like the example. And a part of good cable management would be:
*a.* Label your cables. For short term lables of less than a week I use white gaff tape written on a tab that can be flipped over and written on both sides what the input or output is. For long term labels I put a nylon zip tie on the cable and put the tape on the zip tie since the tape will leave sticky goo on the cable if left on for a month. Goo Gone (or other citrus cleaner) takes tape goo off nice, then use rubbing alc to take off the goo gone.
*b*. Velcro ties. Nylon zip ties are useful but I don't use them directly to organize cable bundles, instead I use Velcro ties since they can be redone a lot easier and use a zip tie to tie the velcro if it's needed.
*c.* Label the length of the cable. I use a permanent maker and mark the cable connector with the length as I unwrap/re-wrap a new cable for the first time. It makes setup go so much faster if you know the length of your cables.
*d*. Unwrap *new *cable as if you were rolling it off a spool, I put the cable on my two wrists and roll my arms one over the other until the cable is sitting in a nice pile on the floor, then I re-wrap the cable over-under so that I can pull it off the end and it will lay flat with no kinks. Along the same lines don't pull cable off a spool by letting it slip off an end, put it on a dowel or large screw driver and let it spool/roll off otherwise it will have twists in it.
*e*. Colored cables are great if they're out of site, it makes it easier to trace, no I don't label the middle of my cables only the ends
*f*. D-plug power cables come in 1', 3'...many different lengths, it helps a lot if gear is close to the power distro to have short D-plug cable. And I get 10', 12', 15' etc. so I don't have to use an extension cord on powered speakers.
*g*. Service loop. In addition to a courtesy loop I leave a service loop if my equipment is on sliding rails. Racking on sliders is great when you have space constraints and can't access the back of the rack from behind but you can't pull out the equipment without that service loop on all cables. 

10. Soffits!, Yeah, I'm just about to leave to get parts for building them. 

Wow...I think I'm cable obsessed. Dr. am I cable obsessed?

Cheers,


----------



## witchdoctor

dnoonie said:


> 1. Good point if your setup is stable and going to be in use for 5 years without changes, I make changes about every 6 months or even more often when in that mode so I stopped cutting my cables to length a long time ago and I use standard lengths like 1' patch, 3' patch, 6' patch, 10' shorty, 25' run, 50' run, 100' run, 200' run, etc.. And as has already been mentioned I leave a courtesy loop at each end usually handy but not close to the gear.
> 
> 4. Yes I do try to make the back of my equipment rack look like the example. And a part of good cable management would be:
> *a.* Label your cables. For short term lables of less than a week I use white gaff tape written on a tab that can be flipped over and written on both sides what the input or output is. For long term labels I put a nylon zip tie on the cable and put the tape on the zip tie since the tape will leave sticky goo on the cable if left on for a month. Goo Gone (or other citrus cleaner) takes tape goo off nice, then use rubbing alc to take off the goo gone.
> *b*. Velcro ties. Nylon zip ties are useful but I don't use them directly to organize cable bundles, instead I use Velcro ties since they can be redone a lot easier and use a zip tie to tie the velcro if it's needed.
> *c.* Label the length of the cable. I use a permanent maker and mark the cable connector with the length as I unwrap/re-wrap a new cable for the first time. It makes setup go so much faster if you know the length of your cables.
> *d*. Unwrap *new *cable as if you were rolling it off a spool, I put the cable on my two wrists and roll my arms one over the other until the cable is sitting in a nice pile on the floor, then I re-wrap the cable over-under so that I can pull it off the end and it will lay flat with no kinks. Along the same lines don't pull cable off a spool by letting it slip off an end, put it on a dowel or large screw driver and let it spool/roll off otherwise it will have twists in it.
> *e*. Colored cables are great if they're out of site, it makes it easier to trace, no I don't label the middle of my cables only the ends
> *f*. D-plug power cables come in 1', 3'...many different lengths, it helps a lot if gear is close to the power distro to have short D-plug cable. And I get 10', 12', 15' etc. so I don't have to use an extension cord on powered speakers.
> *g*. Service loop. In addition to a courtesy loop I leave a service loop if my equipment is on sliding rails. Racking on sliders is great when you have space constraints and can't access the back of the rack from behind but you can't pull out the equipment without that service loop on all cables.
> 
> 10. Soffits!, Yeah, I'm just about to leave to get parts for building them.
> 
> Wow...I think I'm cable obsessed. Dr. am I cable obsessed?
> 
> Cheers,


This is a link with some ideas for cable management for the cable obsessed of us. YMMV:

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Wire-Management-For-Good-Sound/products/222/


----------



## darthray

imagic said:


> Cables are the glue that binds a system together. There's no need to spend a fortune, but it's a good idea to plan out your installation.
> 
> 
> 1. Make sure you know exactly how long each cable needs to be. That goes for speaker cables, interconnects, and power cables. Measure twice, cut once.
> 
> 2. Use cable designed for the task at hand. Speaker cable should be of sufficient gauge for its length and power handling. Analog interconnects should be well shielded.
> 
> 3. Double-check all your connections, including the polarity of your speaker cables.
> 
> 4. Practice good cable management; avoid creating a tangled mess of technospaghetti.
> 
> 5. Avoid running AC power cables alongside analog audio cables; this can cause interference in the audio signal. If they must be in the same vicinity, try to arrange them so they cross at right angles.
> 
> 6. If your equipment offers both balanced XLR and unbalanced RCA connections, use balanced XLR for better rejection of induced noise.
> 
> 7. Avoid excessively long HDMI cable runs. Keep an eye out for signs of signal degradation such as sparkles in the picture.
> 
> 8. Use a wireless HDMI transmitter/receiver or a powered/active HDMI cable, such as those that use Redmere technology, if you need to cover a distance greater than 20 feet or so.
> 
> 9. Don't bother with "audiophile" cables that often cost more than the actual gear. Save your money and use basic cabling from companies like Monoprice and Blue Jeans Cable. Amazon is a good source of economical cables.
> 
> 10. Are you building your room from scratch? Consider running all the cables you need in the walls or soffits.
> 
> 
> 
> Like AVS Forum on Facebook
> Follow AVS Forum on Twitter
> +1 AVS Forum on Google+



Much better job than mine











Kingcarcas said:


> "and power cables. Measure twice, cut once." - That's the thing, who is cutting power cables? If they don't offer varying lengths you're SOL.
> 
> Kudos to SVS, $20 for their tidy cables, not too expensive when you know you're just paying for fashion.



+1



blazar said:


> complex cable management is only needed for more complex systems and when airflow issues might be involved. There is nothing technically wrong with technospaghetti. For those that will be changing out gear frequently, crazy numbers of wire ties will really slow you down.



I cannot disagree, it is a matter of doing once and not often.



Skimanfz1 said:


> Why? Because it looks neater? Imagine trying to trace one of the 8 XLR connected cables in the illustration in that big fat bundle. Now imagine tracing the same cable hung loosely.



Also, I agree with you.
Unless, you are happy with your stuff and not willing to do it often



imagic said:


> Lol, I actually swapped out that exact pre/pro and had to ruin what you see there (which I am not responsible for). Not my system, that's Theo Kalomirakis' rack. I did not put it back the way you see it, but that picture was chosen for its suitability for posting on the AVS homepage. As others mentioned in the comments, velcro is a better solution than zip ties. I was simply saying avoid tangled messes, so tracing that cable is easy.



Another +1
A well made cable management look nice, much better than tangled messes. 




HockeyoAJB said:


> Labeling each cable at both ends or at least using various colors of tape to color code each cable helps tremendously, regardless of how neatly you arrange your cables. In some cases the cables themselves are offered in various colors.



Very good advise



dnoonie said:


> 1. Good point if your setup is stable and going to be in use for 5 years without changes, I make changes about every 6 months or even more often when in that mode so I stopped cutting my cables to length a long time ago and I use standard lengths like 1' patch, 3' patch, 6' patch, 10' shorty, 25' run, 50' run, 100' run, 200' run, etc.. And as has already been mentioned I leave a courtesy loop at each end usually handy but not close to the gear.
> 
> 4. Yes I do try to make the back of my equipment rack look like the example. And a part of good cable management would be:
> *a.* Label your cables. For short term lables of less than a week I use white gaff tape written on a tab that can be flipped over and written on both sides what the input or output is. For long term labels I put a nylon zip tie on the cable and put the tape on the zip tie since the tape will leave sticky goo on the cable if left on for a month. Goo Gone (or other citrus cleaner) takes tape goo off nice, then use rubbing alc to take off the goo gone.
> *b*. Velcro ties. Nylon zip ties are useful but I don't use them directly to organize cable bundles, instead I use Velcro ties since they can be redone a lot easier and use a zip tie to tie the velcro if it's needed.
> *c.* Label the length of the cable. I use a permanent maker and mark the cable connector with the length as I unwrap/re-wrap a new cable for the first time. It makes setup go so much faster if you know the length of your cables.
> *d*. Unwrap *new *cable as if you were rolling it off a spool, I put the cable on my two wrists and roll my arms one over the other until the cable is sitting in a nice pile on the floor, then I re-wrap the cable over-under so that I can pull it off the end and it will lay flat with no kinks. Along the same lines don't pull cable off a spool by letting it slip off an end, put it on a dowel or large screw driver and let it spool/roll off otherwise it will have twists in it.
> *e*. Colored cables are great if they're out of site, it makes it easier to trace, no I don't label the middle of my cables only the ends
> *f*. D-plug power cables come in 1', 3'...many different lengths, it helps a lot if gear is close to the power distro to have short D-plug cable. And I get 10', 12', 15' etc. so I don't have to use an extension cord on powered speakers.
> *g*. Service loop. In addition to a courtesy loop I leave a service loop if my equipment is on sliding rails. Racking on sliders is great when you have space constraints and can't access the back of the rack from behind but you can't pull out the equipment without that service loop on all cables.
> 
> 10. Soffits!, Yeah, I'm just about to leave to get parts for building them.
> 
> Wow...I think I'm cable obsessed. Dr. am I cable obsessed?
> 
> Cheers,



YES and also have very good words of advises.
Now, take the Blue pill or the Red one!?


But to be serious.
I like my cables to be well manage
If you do it often, it is a waist of time to try to achieve perfection.
If it is only be for every few years, why not?


Ray


----------



## toddman36

HockeyoAJB said:


> Labeling each cable at both ends or at least using various colors of tape to color code each cable helps tremendously, regardless of how neatly you arrange your cables. In some cases the cables themselves are offered in various colors.


This is Exactly what I do, label both ends of the cabling....


----------



## breezy2012

Add me to the "label your cables" crowd.

It can save SO much frustration.


----------



## prepress

HockeyoAJB said:


> Labeling each cable at both ends or at least using various colors of tape to color code each cable helps tremendously, regardless of how neatly you arrange your cables. In some cases the cables themselves are offered in various colors.


Yes, another reason I've been slow to bundle my cables is that the interconnects are currently Audioquest King Cobra, which have a red/black jacket and are easier to distinguish. The Wireworld power cords come in different colors, also easy to distinguish (not to mention their flat profile). My HDMI cables are Pangeas (blue/black jacket), also easy to spot. So identifying cables is much less of an issue.

It's still tricky to maneuver the tangle if I need to reseat anything, though. And I may be going back to the Kimber Hero interconnect I was using before, which is an all-black jacket. I don't have much room to move the system out from the wall, and I think a big deterrent to my organizing better is rear access to the system. It's a tight space back there.


----------



## dnoonie

I thought of another one...

Stressed that the weight of your cable will pull it from your equipment?
Stressed that the weight of your cable will wear out the plug on your equipment?

Use strain relief.

Typically I run a Velcro tie through its built in loop and cinch it tight around a cable bundle. Then take the loose end and run it through a loose/non-snug zip tie attached to the rack to take the weight off the connectors.

There are also releasable zip ties available and zip ties with cinch limiters. Just other tools for different situations.

Zip tie anchors are also great if there's nothing to anchor too.









Cheers,


----------



## nvidio

There's only one thing you need to know about cabling.






1. It's spelled _gauge_, not _guage_.


----------



## p5browne

Weird, no mention of the 6' rule for HDMI!


----------



## RLBURNSIDE

Skimanfz1 said:


> Why? Because it looks neater? Imagine trying to trace one of the 8 XLR connected cables in the illustration in that big fat bundle. Now imagine tracing the same cable hung loosely.


At pro audio shops there are XLR signal terminators available quite cheaply to see which wire is which from the other end. Stick a terminator on the end you want, then check each other terminal to find out which it is.


----------



## xBradyx

_Analog interconnects should be well shielded_

Now I'm scared. I recently finished wiring a home project to bring sound to 6 of my rooms and, to save money I shared their grounds. Layout: 3.5mm output of in-wall mounted bluetooth receiver, to zoned amp 100' away using 16awg for L and R, and another 16awg shared by two separate receivers. Am I absolutely going to redo my work or are the shared grounds not that big a deal?


----------



## tleavit

I've had a 35 and 50 foot HDMI cable run through my walls for 8 years without any issues at all. In all that time I have never heard anyone say keep them under 20 foot, in fact I was always "keep them under 50 foot".


----------



## tleavit

Skimanfz1 said:


> Why? Because it looks neater? Imagine trying to trace one of the 8 XLR connected cables in the illustration in that big fat bundle. Now imagine tracing the same cable hung loosely.


Ya but look at that picture. As a person who has worked in data centers for 20 years I can tell you that cable management is important but look at all those tie wraps. Imagine the pain of replacing one cable on that rack.

There are much better ways to cable cleanly and allow much easier access to the cables.


----------



## lovinthehd

That picture of the cabling is for a theater built for someone who is probably not likely to ever do anything for himself in the way of gear is my guess. If they have to hire the guy to do anything in terms of tracing down a problem or changing gear later, he can deal with it (and likely make more money since it will take more time to do). Perfect for the guy who buys complete theaters for his home from that guy. They can afford it.


----------



## stef2

It always make me laugh when I see those "top 10" claims...

Ten ideas, maybe.
But this is no "top" ten....at least, not to me.


----------



## lovinthehd

stef2 said:


> It always make me laugh when I see those "top 10" claims...
> 
> Ten ideas, maybe.
> But this is no "top" ten....at least, not to me.


Let's see your top ten then....


----------



## imagic

stef2 said:


> It always make me laugh when I see those "top 10" claims...
> 
> Ten ideas, maybe.
> But this is no "top" ten....at least, not to me.


It's true. "Top" is just there because there's a tradition in journalism that headlines be somewhat sensational


----------



## fokakis1

These are all good points. As an installer, I would modify point #8 to recommend also the use of HDBaseT Sender/Receiver "BALUNS" over CAT-5e or CAT-6 as a reliable option before going wireless. These BALUNS can turn long, cheap runs of network cable into Full HD HDMI interconnects.


----------



## mark haflich

Mark. You nailed it and writing the entire top ten list off the top of your head in what about 12 minutes? Nah. It had to take you at least 15 minutes to generate a list of this quality.  Come on. Fess up. How long did it take you to write this list?  Rather than pick on this pile by the shovelful  I would just caution that often one should avoid using the balanced connectors vs the unbalanced ones because the entire circuit may not be balanced and a cheap awful sounding phase inverters may have been used to provide a balanced chassis output or input. I am looking forward to your next Top Ten list in yet another of your evidently many areas of AV expertise.


----------



## blazar

You could summarize "cable management" or any other engineering as such: Design to suit the needs of the user.

There is no need for all folks to go OCD about this and there is as usual an opportunity cost to spending a day wiring your crap that you could have otherwise used to watch movies or cure cancer. One person's over-engineering is another person's "sloppy" work.

I would like to point out that often some of the most productive creative talents in the world have been totally sloppy with their work space. Again, there is an opportunity cost to everything.


----------



## dnoonie

fokakis1 said:


> These are all good points. As an installer, I would modify point #8 to recommend also the use of HDBaseT Sender/Receiver "BALUNS" over CAT-5e or CAT-6 as a reliable option before going wireless. These BALUNS can turn long, cheap runs of network cable into Full HD HDMI interconnects.


I've used Extron, Atlona and Gefen (maybe others too) HDMI over Cat 5 and although they're great for certain situations I wouldn't use them were quality is a priority. Is the BALUNS better?

I've used 50' HDMI runs with 1080p with good results and 100' HDMI runs with 720p, For longer runs I usually convert to HD-SDI (good for up to a bit over 300 feet with good connectors) if the source will take it or use fiber.

I have a bunch of Gefen cable that I purchased when it was a good value, their prices seem to have gone up but they're available for less if you shop around, http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dcable.jsp?prod_id=5402, I have a 15' HDMI to DVI cable that I've been using for 10 years to connect my media computer to my TV, 1080p no problem and now that I have a video card with audio support the cable passes audio too, nice.

I want to move the computer to a room 75' away if I can find a way to pass the video signal at a reasonable cost, for XLR audio that's not an issue. I should probable put in a nice 3 inch conduit in the attic and always keep a pull line in it for passing cable between the rooms...or not...I just don't know how long that setup would last.

And there's another tip, *conduit for passing cable* between rooms or levels in a house or office. And always keep a *pull line *in it, once it has a bunch of cable in it pushing a snake tape through it is a pain. And rubbing a little *bar soap *on the cable can do wonders if the bundle is getting kind of tight and best to terminate the ends after the cable's been run if you can or need to.


Cheers,


----------



## mark haflich

One of any top ten cabling things one should know and do is to label every wire, especially those running into walls. This will save you time and effort over the years. Another thing to know. especially with respect to analog audio wires is to chose an interconnect that uses at least one pair of twisted wires to carry the feed and return and has a separate shield. DO NOT USE A CABLE WHOSE SHIELD IS CONNECTED AT BOTH ENDS. That is not a shield in ay way, shape or manner. The cable will work and sound best if the shield is connected at the source end. Further, any cable will work to the system's detriment by functioning as a high frequency antenna hurting the sound by introducing high frequency grunge. Wrap each cable with one turn around a ferrite ring or whatever. This will raise the surface resistance of the cable sheath skin and make it not function as an antenna. I could go on and on.


----------



## imagic

mark haflich said:


> One of any top ten cabling things one should know and do is to label every wire, especially those running into walls. This will save you time and effort over the years. Another thing to know. especially with respect to analog audio wires is to chose an interconnect that uses at least one pair of twisted wires to carry the feed and return with a shield. DO NOT USE A CABLE WHOSE SHIELD IS CONNECTED AT BOTH ENDS. That is not a shield in ay way, shape or manner. The cable will work and sound best if the shield is connected at the sink end. Further, any cable will work to the system detriment by fubctioning as a high frequency antenna hurting the sound by introducing a grunge. Wrap each cable with one turn around a ferrite ring or whatever. This will raise the surface resistance of the cable sheath skin and make it not function as an antenna.* I could go on and on*.


Top 10 list mission accomplished. It prodded you into coughing up some good info.


----------



## mark haflich

dnoonie said:


> I've used Extron, Atlona and Gefen (maybe others too) HDMI over Cat 5 and although they're great for certain situations I wouldn't use them were quality is a priority. Is the BALUNS better?
> 
> I've used 50' HDMI runs with 1080p with good results and 100' HDMI runs with 720p, For longer runs I usually convert to HD-SDI (good for up to a bit over 300 feet with good connectors) if the source will take it or use fiber.
> 
> I have a bunch of Gefen cable that I purchased when it was a good value, their prices seem to have gone up but they're available for less if you shop around, http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dcable.jsp?prod_id=5402, I have a 15' HDMI to DVI cable that I've been using for 10 years to connect my media computer to my TV, 1080p no problem and now that I have a video card with audio support the cable passes audio too, nice.
> 
> I want to move the computer to a room 75' away if I can find a way to pass the video signal at a reasonable cost, for XLR audio that's not an issue. I should probable put in a nice 3 inch conduit in the attic and always keep a pull line in it for passing cable between the rooms...or not...I just don't know how long that setup would last.
> 
> And there's another tip, *conduit for passing cable* between rooms or levels in a house or office. And always keep a *pull line *in it, once it has a bunch of cable in it pushing a snake tape through it is a pain. And rubbing a little *bar soap *on the cable can do wonders if the bundle is getting kind of tight and best to terminate the ends after the cable's been run if you can or need to.
> 
> 
> Cheers,



The problem is that most of these types will not carry UHD. UHD carry ones are just starting to come to market and they are expensive.


----------



## Jinjuku

blazar said:


> complex cable management is only needed for more complex systems and when airflow issues might be involved. There is nothing technically wrong with technospaghetti. For those that will be changing out gear frequently, crazy numbers of wire ties will really slow you down.


Velcro


----------



## mark haflich

Imagic. You didn't answer my question. If I were to write a Top 10 list of the quality of yours. I would be chastised by many posters. Your list looks like it was quickly done with no research and little if any thought. I realize that that are many many things one should know about wiring. Any top ten list by a professional AV writer should be studied and well thought out before publication. Maybe AV Science Forum is changing and not for the good. You were a regular participant before you starting being paid. And your work has traditionally been top notch both as a regular poster and now as AV Science Forum's only paid writer.. Now it appears that you are being coopted by what looks like a publish every day or perish mentality. You want to impress us? Spend an hour revising the list to be a true top ten list and to reflect the outstanding writing and communicating ability you have and which your work normally reflects. This would well serve the people not forum members who google for wiring tips and who will not read a long thread. I appreciate that the forum administrators are tolerant of my criticism here. I remain one of your strongest supporters and one of your biggest fans. You are a very good man.


----------



## imagic

mark haflich said:


> Imagic. You didn't answer my question. *If I were to write a Top 10 list of the quality of yours. I would be chastised by many posters. Your list looks like it was quickly done with no research and little if any thought. *I realize that that are many many things one should know about wiring. Any top ten list by a professional AV writer should be studied and well thought out before publication. Maybe AV Science Forum is changing and not for the good. You were a regular participant before you starting being paid. And your work has traditionally been top notch both as a regular poster and now as AV Science Forum's only paid writer.. Now it appears that you are being coopted by what looks like a publish every day or perish mentality. You want to impress us? Spend an hour revising the list to be a true top ten list and to reflect the outstanding writing and communicating ability you have and which your work normally reflects. This would well serve the people not forum members who google for wiring tips and who will not read a long thread. I appreciate that the forum administrators are tolerant of my criticism here. I remain one of your strongest supporters and one of your biggest fans. You are a very good man.


IMO you must bored, to be wasting your time criticizing a listicle. Lol.


----------



## xBradyx

imagic said:


> IMO you must bored, to be wasting your time criticizing a listicle. Lol.


He could have criticized my post instead and made someone grateful. But no, let's criticize a post that doesn't really deserve it. Let's kick a pup


----------



## mark haflich

I do not criticize newbies. BTW. Welcome to AV Science Forum. Glad you are here. You asked a question. How can that be criticized? 


Imagic is not a pup and I consider him a friend who can take it. His hide is very very thick and he is not overly sensitive. I would kick him in the rear but the only likely outcome would be me losing my foot. :}


As to your question, I really don't know. I have never done a common ground system given that the extra copper costs are rather insignificant. There are certain considerations where a common ground system may result in raising of the noise floor and could introduce hum but I really do not know. Maybe Imagic can jump in but he probably doesn't know either.


----------



## mark haflich

imagic said:


> IMO you must bored, to be wasting your time criticizing a listicle. Lol.



And you must be ____ being required to write one under a very very short deadline.


----------



## imagic

mark haflich said:


> And you must be ____ being required to write one under a very very short deadline.


I think you would do better at making such a list than I, and if you found the spare time perhaps you could do exactly that, thusly making this thread more worthwhile and proving once again that AVS is all about its members and the spirit of sharing knowledge.

"The comments _are the content_" - South Park


----------



## mark haflich

Ahem. I and many many others proved that a long time ago. I do not have to reprove that. As for doing a revised list, I will do it for you provided you promise to follow the general extremely wise, sage, and sound advise I proffered for your future listicles.  I doubt what appears to be a quantity over quality publish one almost daily dictate would permit this. BTW About your South Park quote, while you make a solid point. Unfortunately this listicle brings forth the title of long departed Marshall's book, The Medium is the Message. BTW I admire your attempt at humility shown by your statement that you "think" I could do better than you in this instance. Many of the participants in this thread and many many members of AV Science could do much better and you certainly "know" that I could. Humility is not a quality that I possess or have ever needed. I hope you "know" that all these jousting posts between you and I while sadly true are in good fun.


----------



## Glimmie

mark haflich said:


> Imagic. You didn't answer my question. If I were to write a Top 10 list of the quality of yours. I would be chastised by many posters. Your list looks like it was quickly done with no research and little if any thought. I realize that that are many many things one should know about wiring. Any top ten list by a professional AV writer should be studied and well thought out before publication. Maybe AV Science Forum is changing and not for the good. You were a regular participant before you starting being paid. And your work has traditionally been top notch both as a regular poster and now as AV Science Forum's only paid writer.. Now it appears that you are being coopted by what looks like a publish every day or perish mentality. You want to impress us? Spend an hour revising the list to be a true top ten list and to reflect the outstanding writing and communicating ability you have and which your work normally reflects. This would well serve the people not forum members who google for wiring tips and who will not read a long thread. I appreciate that the forum administrators are tolerant of my criticism here. I remain one of your strongest supporters and one of your biggest fans. You are a very good man.


I see nothing wrong or in error of Mark's list. No it certianly isn't all inclusive, that would be endless. It is a good foundation for a non technical HT builder to follow.

The lifting of grounds on balanced cables is hit or miss. IME, with line level signals and the lengths in a typically HT, it really doesn't matter. I run with both ends grounded at home and at work.

P.S. I should also note that when lifting a ground, it should be *lifted on the SINK end* and connected on the SOURCE end. The reason is you want the burden of cable capacitance resting on the driver and not the receiver. grounding at the sink end on OPAMP drivers can upset the feedback loop at higher frequencies. This is standard practice not only with audio but any differential signalling setup.


----------



## Glimmie

xBradyx said:


> _Analog interconnects should be well shielded_
> 
> Now I'm scared. I recently finished wiring a home project to bring sound to 6 of my rooms and, to save money I shared their grounds. Layout: 3.5mm output of in-wall mounted bluetooth receiver, to zoned amp 100' away using 16awg for L and R, and another 16awg shared by two separate receivers. Am I absolutely going to redo my work or are the shared grounds not that big a deal?


The shared grounds in this application are not a problem. When you say 16awg, is that shielded audio cable? Because if not, at 100 feet there _could _be noise pickup problems.

For line level at 100 feet 24awg is all you need. 22awg is better for cable strength.


----------



## 18Hurts

Straight forward information complete with pictures! 

For the OCD folks, you can cut your stock power cables to length and use a hospital grade plug to finish. The Hubbel versions work best as you have a spot to add a spacer for smaller wire as a strain relief. 

As others have mentioned, when using heavier, shielded cable--run the cable out and have a cable carrier hold the weight to prevent stress on the connections of the electronics. 

You forgot the most important statement! Use ONLY audiophile grade zip ties! Cyrogenically frozen zip ties, very thick to absorb signal damaging micro-harmonic vibrations with multiple layers to trap dark matter to vastly improve digital black.


----------



## Glimmie

18Hurts said:


> Straight forward information complete with pictures!
> 
> For the OCD folks, you can cut your stock power cables to length and use a hospital grade plug to finish. The Hubbel versions work best as you have a spot to add a spacer for smaller wire as a strain relief.


Monoprice carries several lengths of short power cords - cheap. As for quality, we use them by the hundreds where I work, Technicolor's primary mastering facility so a lot of your BluRays and TV shows are made with these cords in line. So much for audiophile power cords!

Belden and Mid Atlantic also sell short cords but are about 2x the price ($4 vs $2). And they all probably come from the same factory in China.


----------



## RayDunzl

I used to do perfect installs for Sprint, USWest, NyNex, TDS Telecom, WorldCom, Genuity, etc.

At home the AWAW* wiring method works as long as nobody is going to perform an inspection or acceptance test.

Is this what we are supposed to avoid behind our stereo?










and behind the computer?










A little cleanup is on my list of things to do, but, there are some other items with higher priority.


*AWAW - any wire any where


----------



## witchdoctor

RayDunzl said:


> I used to do perfect installs for Sprint, USWest, NyNex, TDS Telecom, WorldCom, Genuity, etc.
> 
> At home the AWAW* wiring method works as long as nobody is going to perform an inspection or acceptance test.
> 
> Is this what we are supposed to avoid behind our stereo?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and behind the computer?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A little cleanup is on my list of things to do, but, there are some other items with higher priority.
> 
> 
> *AWAW - any wire any where


What is the big blue one coiled up on the ground? I see a wrench in place so this must be a work in progress.


----------



## witchdoctor

Glimmie said:


> Monoprice carries several lengths of short power cords - cheap. As for quality, we use them by the hundreds where I work, Technicolor's primary mastering facility so a lot of your BluRays and TV shows are made with these cords in line. So much for audiophile power cords!
> 
> Belden and Mid Atlantic also sell short cords but are about 2x the price ($4 vs $2). And they all probably come from the same factory in China.


I assure you, recording quality was the furthest thing from Technicolor s mind when they were deciding their budget for power cords. If you don't think using high end cables makes a difference in the studio Mapleshade Records uses high end cables in their recording studio, even low rez MP3's sound better:

http://mapleshaderecords.com/freemp3s.php

If you like the free MP3 try one of their CD's.

http://mapleshaderecords.com/press/audiophile.php

_"He has, for instance, discovered that by demonstrating the impact of changing interconnects, or other wires such as those used by instrumentalists between their guitars and amps (which are usually taken for granted by most engineers), typically astounds these folks. From then on, they are sensitized to why audiophiles go to the extremes we are noted for, and they work harder at getting things right, or at least better." _

Taken from the Audiophile Voice


----------



## imagic

witchdoctor said:


> I assure you, recording quality was the furthest thing from Technicolor s mind when they were deciding their budget for power cords. If you don't think using high end cables makes a difference in the studio Mapleshade Records uses high end cables in their recording studio, even low rez MP3's sound better:
> 
> http://mapleshaderecords.com/freemp3s.php
> 
> If you like the free MP3 try one of their CD's.
> 
> http://mapleshaderecords.com/press/audiophile.php
> 
> _"He has, for instance, discovered that by demonstrating the impact of changing interconnects, or other wires such as those used by instrumentalists between their guitars and amps (which are usually taken for granted by most engineers), typically astounds these folks. From then on, they are sensitized to why audiophiles go to the extremes we are noted for, and they work harder at getting things right, or at least better." _
> 
> Taken from the Audiophile Voice


I know that a guitar cable should be well-shielded, it's an extra-long analog interconnect. But taking that and saying it is justification for $1000+ "audiophile" power cords and USB cables is where I draw the line. It is unsurprising that guitarists don't want their cables turning into antennas, and the same goes for analog interconnects in home systems.

The cable debate never ends, but when I see an audiophile going to extremes over cables, often I am left baffled by the "science" used to rationalize the high prices.


----------



## TMcG

Haflich-inspired imagic witch hunt aside, the list has some very sound principles for the uninitiated.

Aside from having a service loop available out-of-sight for any impending upgrades, using Velcro ties and labeling both ends of the wires, I would vehemently disagree with the assumption in #8 about going with a wireless HDMI transmitter. Go with wired over a single or dual Cat6 wire....period...unless you are forced into wireless as an option of last resort. The wireless tech works, but at nowhere near the reliability of the wired interface.

I'd also add to keep a smooth radius to cable bends with no hard, tight angles.

EDIT:
A few photos from my previous system in 2004 - all pictures were during the wiring process and not yet finished.

Structured cable and antenna system with modulated channels for remote cameras:


Distributed audio system amplifier:


7 channel Lexicon home theater amplifier, 3 digital cable DVRs:


----------



## witchdoctor

imagic said:


> I know that a guitar cable should be well-shielded, it's an extra-long analog interconnect. But taking that and saying it is justification for $1000+ "audiophile" power cords and USB cables is where I draw the line. It is unsurprising that guitarists don't want their cables turning into antennas, and the same goes for analog interconnects in home systems.
> 
> The cable debate never ends, but when I see an audiophile going to extremes over cables, often I am left baffled by the "science" used to rationalize the high prices.


Excellent point, how do you define "value" in any audio investment. I am going to leave that up to the user, their taste, budget, etc. I think $1000 is a good line to draw for most cables but then I also draw the line at $2000 for speakers where for some people that would be a budget component.

FWIW Chesky Records use customized versions of Crytal Cables. Here is a link to one of their power cords:
http://www.crystalcable.in/powercablecatalogue.pdf

Does it make a difference? They seem to think so.


----------



## TMcG

RayDunzl said:


> Is this what we are supposed to avoid behind our stereo?


If it isn't, I'm missing the following from my system:

Stack of bricks
Rainbow of CFL bulbs tossed about
50' industrial extension cord to connect a 3-way splitter just a few feet away
Black light
Lava lamp
Various spotlamps
Dust brush sitting in dust
Random power supply with fan sitting with one side completely blocked

I'll put a few on my upgrade list.


----------



## RayDunzl

witchdoctor said:


> What is the big blue one coiled up on the ground? I see a wrench in place so this must be a work in progress.


It's just a handy length of unconnected ethernet for when wireless won't do. The work-in-progress was finding some loss in the ISP/TV cable - that turned out to be outdoors.


----------



## Suntan

tleavit said:


> I've had a 35 and 50 foot HDMI cable run through my walls for 8 years without any issues at all. In all that time I have never heard anyone say keep them under 20 foot, in fact I was always "keep them under 50 foot".


I have a 50'er in the ceiling to the PJ too. I've always been in the camp that says, just unwind it and make sure it works before running it in the wall.


----------



## mark haflich

Suntan said:


> I have a 50'er in the ceiling to the PJ too. I've always been in the camp that says, just unwind it and make sure it works before running it in the wall.


 
Just about all the longer HDMI cables with a built in chip are directional. Make sure you test first to make sure you have the right direction before installation in a wall and even if external don't freakout if your cable doesn't work. Try it in the other direction first.


----------



## mark haflich

Glimmie said:


> I see nothing wrong or in error of Mark's list. No it certianly isn't all inclusive, that would be endless. It is a good foundation for a non technical HT builder to follow.
> 
> The lifting of grounds on balanced cables is hit or miss. IME, with line level signals and the lengths in a typically HT, it really doesn't matter. I run with both ends grounded at home and at work.
> 
> P.S. I should also note that when lifting a ground, it should be *lifted on the SINK end* and connected on the SOURCE end. The reason is you want the burden of cable capacitance resting on the driver and not the receiver. grounding at the sink end on OPAMP drivers can upset the feedback loop at higher frequencies. This is standard practice not only with audio but any differential signalling setup.



What you say makes sense re lifting the shield at the sink end. I do disagree with the use of the term ground here though the shield is certainly grounded. A shield functions as a Faraday cage and to so function it must be grounded only at one end. As to balanced cables, there is little reason to use one that is shielded. Not so with respect to single ended cables. In video cables, the shield functions as the signal return and while these cables are described as quad shielded, their really is no shield so to speak unless I don't understand.


----------



## Joe Fernand

_'8. Use a wireless HDMI transmitter/receiver or a powered/active HDMI cable, such as those that use Redmere technology, if you need to cover a distance greater than 20 feet or so._' - not convinced with either of those options.

Wireless HD (you can't officially call it HDMI) is a non-starter in terms of reliability.


Active HDMI cables - what do you do when HDMI Specs change and the chip in the cable is 'redundant'?


HDMI over single CAT is the way to go.


Joe


PS Labels and Velcro here too


----------



## Glimmie

mark haflich said:


> What you say makes sense re lifting the shield at the sink end. I do disagree with the use of the term ground here though the shield is certainly grounded. A shield functions as a Faraday cage and to so function it must be grounded only at one end. As to balanced cables, there is little reason to use one that is shielded. Not so with respect to single ended cables. In video cables, the shield functions as the signal return and while these cables are described as quad shielded, their really is no shield so to speak unless I don't understand.


Yes, the term "ground" is becoming unpopular because it doesn't really fit the application in many cases. Is there a "ground" on your car's electrical system? Even in the electrical trade, the are using the term "bonding" to mean the connection ot the metal box or conduit. "Ground" is only used where the actual earth ground is connected. In electronics the term "return" or "shield" is more accurate.

Still I find the "pin 1" problem rare in my installations within electrically clean facility systems. Now in sound reinforcement with multiple power sources and often large light dimmers, it become a far more important issue.

And on gear that I have built I always follow the rule to bond pin 1 right to the chassis at the connector. Never return it to the signal ground and I have never experienced a problem following this rule.


----------



## mark haflich

When I helped design high end audo preamps in another life, I always insisted on using star grounds.


----------



## Glimmie

witchdoctor said:


> I assure you, recording quality was the furthest thing from Technicolor s mind when they were deciding their budget for power cords. If you don't think using high end cables makes a difference in the studio Mapleshade Records uses high end cables in their recording studio, even low rez MP3's sound better:
> 
> http://mapleshaderecords.com/freemp3s.php
> 
> If you like the free MP3 try one of their CD's.
> 
> http://mapleshaderecords.com/press/audiophile.php
> 
> _"He has, for instance, discovered that by demonstrating the impact of changing interconnects, or other wires such as those used by instrumentalists between their guitars and amps (which are usually taken for granted by most engineers), typically astounds these folks. From then on, they are sensitized to why audiophiles go to the extremes we are noted for, and they work harder at getting things right, or at least better." _
> 
> Taken from the Audiophile Voice


LOL! Technicolor doesn't do quality audio! Too bad I don't have some pictures of the equipment room that supports that mixing stage. I could show you the hundreds of Monoprice power cords we used.

I should note that the technical electrical system in that facility is fed from a 250kva UPS with under 3% THD on the 60hz sine wave, regulated to within 2%. How good is your power at home? You think some magic cord is going to do the same?










http://www.technicolor.com/en/solut...technicolor-los-angeles/sound/sound-paramount


----------



## Glimmie

mark haflich said:


> When I helped design high end audo preamps in another live, I always insisted on using star grounds.


Well in unbalanced products, this is good practice. And even in balanced gear you still have to be careful. After all most balanced I/O gear immediately unbalances the signal and all processing is in the unbalanced domain.


----------



## witchdoctor

Glimmie said:


> And what is your engineering background to understand the differences in cables? Your quote even acknowledges that "engineers" don't buy into this stuff. So some tiny niche recording studio knows more than the major players. Come on!
> 
> And ironically there is a tad of truth in their statement Guitar cables are unbalanced, high impedance, and typically 50 feet or more. So yes, here cable capacitance is a major factor and I have no doubt many cables in this application sound different. But that does not mean analog cables in balanced line level applications suffer from the same deficiencies.
> 
> Furthermore most modern mastering plants are digital except for microphones and speakers. So cable quality is limited to standard HF signal distribution engineering.
> 
> As for power cords, well Technicolor for one has over $2m in megawatt plus UPS systems to provide isolated clean power to the entire plant. So to say we don't care about power quality is a rather ignorant statement.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, I guess I should cancel my subscription to the AES journal, the SMPTE journal, and the IEEE journal. Seems like the "Audiophile Voice" is where it's at today in studio systems engineering.


Do hi rez recordings sound better than an MP3? Yes, but if that is the case why haven't all the major players (except Neil Young) gotten on the high rez bandwagon? It's a business decision, the majority of people don't own systems that are sensitive enough to hear a difference in high rez or just don't care. That is the niche market for Mapleshade and Chesky, the people that can hear a difference and do care and yes it remains a boutique market. As for cable quality please check the link that I posted to the power cable from Crystal, it is right there for your review.


----------



## Glimmie

witchdoctor said:


> FWIW Chesky Records use customized versions of Crytal Cables. Here is a link to one of their power cords:
> http://www.crystalcable.in/powercablecatalogue.pdf
> 
> Does it make a difference? They seem to think so.


That brochure/spec sheet is for high voltage distribution cables - like 45kv & 132kv as mentioned. What does that have to do with 120vac power cords? Of course cables in the tens or hundreds of kilovolts need special manufacturing. So did the HV lead in your old CRT based TV.

This is so typical of audiophile cable fanatics. Take specialized technology from another industry and blindly apply it to consumer audio engineering.

You also are not seeing the marketing plan behind these esoteric record labels. They know you guys but into this cable hype so if they want to sell you their records, they have to join the band wagon.

And enough with the "your system can't resolve the differences". I can dig up several accredited papers that prove there is nothing but noise beyond 20 bits in HiFi audio recordings and no discernible differences in audio waveforms samples beyond 96khz. .


----------



## jimv1983

Skimanfz1 said:


> Why? Because it looks neater? Imagine trying to trace one of the 8 XLR connected cables in the illustration in that big fat bundle. Now imagine tracing the same cable hung loosely.


Colored duct table. Put a thin strip around the cable every few inches and then follow the colors. I don't have anything nearly as complicated as what is show in the OP picture but I've done it before and it is very helpful.


----------



## jimv1983

jimv1983 said:


> Colored duct table. Put a thin strip around the cable every few inches and then follow the colors. I don't have anything nearly as complicated as what is show in the OP picture but I've done it before and it is very helpful.


I meant "colored duct *TAPE*"

On an unrelated note, does anyone know if a post can be edited. It would make it much easier to fix typos.


----------



## lovinthehd

jimv1983 said:


> I meant "colored duct *TAPE*"
> 
> On an unrelated note, does anyone know if a post can be edited. It would make it much easier to fix typos.


It's the edit button in the lower right area of your post....if you're posting on a phone I don't know what to tell you....


----------



## 18Hurts

witchdoctor said:


> As for cable quality please check the link that I posted to the power cable from Crystal, it is right there for your review.


No need to read the review--the laws of electricity have not changed. Since engineers design, build and improve audio equipment, here is their take on speaker wire. 

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Enjoy the read, learn a few things and good luck on your journey. :kiss:


----------



## witchdoctor

Glimmie said:


> That brochure/spec sheet is for high voltage distribution cables - like 45kv & 132kv as mentioned. What does that have to do with 120vac power cords? Of course cables in the tens or hundreds of kilovolts need special manufacturing. So did the HV lead in your old CRT based TV.
> 
> This is so typical of audiophile cable fanatics. Take specialized technology from another industry and blindly apply it to consumer audio engineering.
> 
> You also are not seeing the marketing plan behind these esoteric record labels. They know you guys but into this cable hype so if they want to sell you their records, they have to join the band wagon.
> 
> And enough with the "your system can't resolve the differences". I can dig up several accredited papers that prove there is nothing but noise beyond 20 bits in HiFi audio recordings and no discernible differences in audio waveforms samples beyond 96khz. .


All of these recording studios have access to the same literature you mention, yet all of them found a reason to use "expensive" Crystal Cables. Why would they just waste money like that?

http://www.crystalcable.com/recordings/


----------



## jimv1983

lovinthehd said:


> It's the edit button in the lower right area of your post....if you're posting on a phone I don't know what to tell you....


Where? I don't see any edit button.

Here is a screen shot of what I see in one of my posts. The only buttons I see are "Quote", "Multi-Quote" and "Quick Reply".

http://s24.postimg.org/f5h18ujmd/AVS_Post.jpg


----------



## lovinthehd

jimv1983 said:


> Where? I don't see any edit button.
> 
> Here is a screen shot of what I see in one of my posts. The only buttons I see are "Quote", "Multi-Quote" and "Quick Reply".
> 
> http://s24.postimg.org/f5h18ujmd/AVS_Post.jpg


Edit button appears to the left of those others in every one of my posts. I'm using Firefox and don't remember doing anything particularly to setup editing in user control panel....you might want to look around or post up here http://www.avsforum.com/forum/43-forum-operations-center/ unless someone else can explain why you don't have an edit option in your posts....


----------



## Glimmie

witchdoctor said:


> All of these recording studios have access to the same literature you mention, yet all of them found a reason to use "expensive" Crystal Cables. Why would they just waste money like that?
> 
> http://www.crystalcable.com/recordings/


I already explained that. They are selling their recording to you folks that believe in the cable hype. If they didn't use these cables, you would take them less seriously. And that's a very small list compared to all the media produced these days.

*Also please note that is a different WEB site than you noted in post #52.* It seems you got them confused with a company that makes cables for the electrical utility industry. Funny you didn't catch that error if you are so familiar with the company.

Now here is a very telling example of the hype and BS. The first Crystal link you provided is a legitimate cable manufacture. Their spec sheet has pages of standard engineering information which any electrical engineer would require to specify a product. - Look for yourself!

The second Crystal Cable web site, the one I think you regionally intended, has none of that critical information posted. Just the same old audiophile magazine hype and not a thread of technical information in standard engineering format. Fancy words, fonts and pictures but not one technical chart.

So tell me how these engineers at these ultra high end record labels determine if these cables are suitable for their application? Is it because "Stereophile" said so?


----------



## markrubin

jimv1983 said:


> Where? I don't see any edit button.
> 
> Here is a screen shot of what I see in one of my posts. The only buttons I see are "Quote", "Multi-Quote" and "Quick Reply".
> 
> http://s24.postimg.org/f5h18ujmd/AVS_Post.jpg


please check for the edit button now...


----------



## witchdoctor

Glimmie said:


> I already explained that. They are selling their recording to you folks that believe in the cable hype. If they didn't use these cables, you would take them less seriously. And that's a very small list compared to all the media produced these days.
> 
> *Also please note that is a different WEB site than you noted in post #52.* It seems you got them confused with a company that makes cables for the electrical utility industry. Funny you didn't catch that error if you are so familiar with the company.
> 
> Now here is a very telling example of the hype and BS. The first Crystal link you provided is a legitimate cable manufacture. Their spec sheet has pages of standard engineering information which any electrical engineer would require to specify a product. - Look for yourself!
> 
> The second Crystal Cable web site, the one I think you regionally intended, has none of that critical information posted. Just the same old audiophile magazine hype and not a thread of technical information in standard engineering format. Fancy words, fonts and pictures but not one technical chart.
> 
> So tell me how these engineers at these ultra high end record labels determine if these cables are suitable for their application? Is it because "Stereophile" said so?


The high end studios state their preference for cables in the link I posted, did you read why they prefer it?

http://crystalcable.com/recordings/

You seemed to make a claim that since Technicolor doesn't use audiophile cables all "expensive" cables provide no value. I simply made a counter claim that many recording studios do use audiophile cables because they do provide value. I posted a link to a low rez MP3 from Mapleshade so readers here can decide for themselves if they think their is value. That pretty much covers it for me.


----------



## lovinthehd

witchdoctor said:


> The high end studios state their preference for cables in the link I posted, did you read why they prefer it?
> 
> http://crystalcable.com/recordings/
> 
> You seemed to make a claim that since Technicolor doesn't use audiophile cables all "expensive" cables provide no value. I simply made a counter claim that many recording studios do use audiophile cables because they do provide value. I posted a link to a low rez MP3 from Mapleshade so readers here can decide for themselves if they think their is value. That pretty much covers it for me.


Do you also believe when celebrities tell you about all those products that helped them be the pretty and good smelling and well coifed and dressed selves they are today? LOL. Did Crystal charge the studio for the cable or is it a marketing deal? Mono crystal cable technology....that's great, combining the world of crystals and audiophoolery, good combo....now to work in some aromatherapy for a full package. The other studios I've seen/heard using audiophool cables were given it in return for promotional considerations....


----------



## prepress

mark haflich said:


> One of any top ten cabling things one should know and do is to label every wire, especially those running into walls. This will save you time and effort over the years. Another thing to know. especially with respect to analog audio wires is to chose an interconnect that uses at least one pair of twisted wires to carry the feed and return and has a separate shield. DO NOT USE A CABLE WHOSE SHIELD IS CONNECTED AT BOTH ENDS. That is not a shield in ay way, shape or manner. The cable will work and sound best if the shield is connected at the source end. Further, any cable will work to the system's detriment by functioning as a high frequency antenna hurting the sound by introducing high frequency grunge. Wrap each cable with one turn around a ferrite ring or whatever. This will raise the surface resistance of the cable sheath skin and make it not function as an antenna. I could go on and on.


I've long known power cords are susceptible to antenna behavior, but I hadn't thought about interconnects that way. Good point.


----------



## Glimmie

witchdoctor said:


> ...I simply made a counter claim that many recording studios do use audiophile cables because they do provide value.


Many? I counted six in your example provided. And these are small operations without any engineering staff. Putting together a basement recording studio these days is no more complicated than an average HT system. The guys running these shops are musicians, not engineers. They do not know how to interpret specs and choose cost effective yet good cables.

Now these high end cables in most cases do no harm, after all it's just audio, the lowest end of the EM spectrum, so yes they do produce high quality recordings. But so does the standard stock from Belden, Canare, and Mogami. Do you know how many studios and broadcast facilities use the three brands I just listed? 

And you didn't address the other point I raised about the lack of specifications. How do I or anyone know how good these cables are without technical specifications disclosed? If these cables are so good, then why not publish standard engineering specifications? What are they hiding?

P.S. And it's not just Technicolor. Ditto that for Deluxe and all the other major players as well as the major TV networks.


----------



## jimv1983

markrubin said:


> please check for the edit button now...


Wow, whatever you did worked. I see the edit button now. Thanks!


----------



## witchdoctor

Glimmie said:


> Many? I counted six in your example provided. And these are small operations without any engineering staff. Putting together a basement recording studio these days is no more complicated than an average HT system. The guys running these shops are musicians, not engineers. They do not know how to interpret specs and choose cost effective yet good cables.
> 
> Now these high end cables in most cases do no harm, after all it's just audio, the lowest end of the EM spectrum, so yes they do produce high quality recordings. But so does the standard stock from Belden, Canare, and Mogami. Do you know how many studios and broadcast facilities use the three brands I just listed?
> 
> And you didn't address the other point I raised about the lack of specifications. How do I or anyone know how good these cables are without technical specifications disclosed? If these cables are so good, then why not publish standard engineering specifications? What are they hiding?
> 
> P.S. And it's not just Technicolor. Ditto that for Deluxe and all the other major players as well as the major TV networks.


When you buy a TV do you always get the technical specs? Most people walk into a store and buy what looks good. When i buy a cable I listen and if it sounds good to me it is good. If it doesn't sound good I send it back for a refund. If you want technical specs for a cable please contact the vendor and they are generally happy to send. I am really happy to hear they are handing out Grammy awards to these basement studios like Chesky, I guess anyone can win one now in their basement.
Awards and recognition[edit]
1997 Grammy, “Best Latin Jazz Recording,” Portraits of Cuba, Paquito D’Rivera[19][20][21]
1998 Grammy nomination, “Best World Album,” Circle of Drums, Babatunde Olatunji[22][23]
2000 Latin Grammy, “Best Latin Jazz Album,” Tropicana Nights, Paquito D’Rivera[19][20][24]
2005 Grammy nomination, “Best Engineered Classical Recording,” Area 31: Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, The Girl from Guatemala, David Chesky[25][26]
2005 Grammy nomination, “Best Latin Jazz Album,” The Body Acoustic, David Chesky[27][28]
2007 Grammy nomination, “Best Classical Contemporary Composition,” Concerto for Bassoon and Orchestra, David Chesky[15][25]


----------



## lovinthehd

witchdoctor said:


> When you buy a TV do you always get the technical specs? Most people walk into a store and buy what looks good. When i buy a cable I listen and if it sounds good to me it is good. If it doesn't sound good I send it back for a refund. If you want technical specs for a cable please contact the vendor and they are generally happy to send. I am really happy to hear they are handing out Grammy awards to these basement studios like Chesky, I guess anyone can win one now in their basement.
> Awards and recognition[edit]
> 1997 Grammy, “Best Latin Jazz Recording,” Portraits of Cuba, Paquito D’Rivera[19][20][21]
> 1998 Grammy nomination, “Best World Album,” Circle of Drums, Babatunde Olatunji[22][23]
> 2000 Latin Grammy, “Best Latin Jazz Album,” Tropicana Nights, Paquito D’Rivera[19][20][24]
> 2005 Grammy nomination, “Best Engineered Classical Recording,” Area 31: Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, The Girl from Guatemala, David Chesky[25][26]
> 2005 Grammy nomination, “Best Latin Jazz Album,” The Body Acoustic, David Chesky[27][28]
> 2007 Grammy nomination, “Best Classical Contemporary Composition,” Concerto for Bassoon and Orchestra, David Chesky[15][25]


You win the non sequitur award for the day....


----------



## Glimmie

witchdoctor said:


> When you buy a TV do you always get the technical specs? Most people walk into a store and buy what looks good. When i buy a cable I listen and if it sounds good to me it is good. If it doesn't sound good I send it back for a refund. If you want technical specs for a cable please contact the vendor and they are generally happy to send. I am really happy to hear they are handing out Grammy awards to these basement studios like Chesky, I guess anyone can win one now in their basement.
> Awards and recognition[edit]
> 1997 Grammy, “Best Latin Jazz Recording,” Portraits of Cuba, Paquito D’Rivera[19][20][21]
> 1998 Grammy nomination, “Best World Album,” Circle of Drums, Babatunde Olatunji[22][23]
> 2000 Latin Grammy, “Best Latin Jazz Album,” Tropicana Nights, Paquito D’Rivera[19][20][24]
> 2005 Grammy nomination, “Best Engineered Classical Recording,” Area 31: Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, The Girl from Guatemala, David Chesky[25][26]
> 2005 Grammy nomination, “Best Latin Jazz Album,” The Body Acoustic, David Chesky[27][28]
> 2007 Grammy nomination, “Best Classical Contemporary Composition,” Concerto for Bassoon and Orchestra, David Chesky[15][25]


But was winning those Grammy's dependant on the cables they use? I think not!

Audiophile cable vendor supplying standard electrical specifications. LOL! They run for the hills every time somebody asks for that. It has been tried before.

And most TV manufactures do post basic specs on their sites.

You have failed to prove anything more than the fact that you buy cables based on consumer audio magazine reviews.


----------



## markrubin

Moderator: thread cleanup 

Thank you


----------



## Glimmie

mark haflich said:


> What you say makes sense re lifting the shield at the sink end. I do disagree with the use of the term ground here though the shield is certainly grounded. A shield functions as a Faraday cage and to so function it must be grounded only at one end. As to balanced cables, there is little reason to use one that is shielded. Not so with respect to single ended cables. In video cables, the shield functions as the signal return and while these cables are described as quad shielded, their really is no shield so to speak unless I don't understand.


Here's an AES paper which is an outstanding lecture on this subject.

https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf


----------



## mark haflich

Very long but easy read. I took a 3 hour course with the author about 10 years ago at Cedia. I used Jensen transformers to eliminate many a ground loop.


----------



## witchdoctor

Glimmie said:


> But was winning those Grammy's dependant on the cables they use? I think not!
> 
> Audiophile cable vendor supplying standard electrical specifications. LOL! They run for the hills every time somebody asks for that. It has been tried before.
> 
> And most TV manufactures do post basic specs on their sites.
> 
> You have failed to prove anything more than the fact that you buy cables based on consumer audio magazine reviews.


I proved that a small boutique recording company that has a target market of passionate music lovers that own the most sensitive audio equipment available penetrate that market using the best recording equipment (including audiophile cables) to produce recordings of such high quality that they can compete and win Grammy awards going head to head with the "big players".

Why do you get so angry about this? If you would like to speak to any of these vendors let me know and I am sure they won't run anywhere. I think they would be more than happy to address your confusion about standard electrical specifications.


----------



## mark haflich

If one comes out with cables make a big difference in he audio quality one can put on storage medium or what one can get off that medium through their system one gets ridiculed from the only thing that matters is E =IR and cable capacitance. God forbid that DA might make a difference just to name one thing. One chooses cables in a high quality system by a/b comparisons and god forbid that lifting speaker cables off the rug by simple wood blocks might actually improve the sound. Many engineers are flat earthers. There is nothing that matters except basic classical electrical theory. All caps were equal until Richard Marsh's two part article years ago in Audio Magazine. And Marsh was a physicist at Lawrence Livermore laboratories.


----------



## januza

TMcG said:


> Haflich-inspired imagic witch hunt aside, the list has some very sound principles for the uninitiated.
> 
> Aside from having a service loop available out-of-sight for any impending upgrades, using Velcro ties and labeling both ends of the wires, I would vehemently disagree with the assumption in #8 about going with a wireless HDMI transmitter. Go with wired over a single or dual Cat6 wire....period...unless you are forced into wireless as an option of last resort. The wireless tech works, but at nowhere near the reliability of the wired interface.
> 
> I'd also add to keep a smooth radius to cable bends with no hard, tight angles.
> 
> EDIT:
> A few photos from my previous system in 2004 - all pictures were during the wiring process and not yet finished.
> 
> Structured cable and antenna system with modulated channels for remote cameras:
> 
> 
> Distributed audio system amplifier:
> 
> 
> 7 channel Lexicon home theater amplifier, 3 digital cable DVRs:


Holy crap.. can u come to my house and fix my techno wires??? I will pay you well !!!


----------



## Glimmie

mark haflich said:


> If one comes out with cables make a big difference in he audio quality one can put on storage medium or what one can get off that medium through their system one gets ridiculed from the only thing that matters is E =IR and cable capacitance. God forbid that DA might make a difference just to name one thing. me chooses cables in a high quality system by a/ comparisons and god forbid that lifting speaker cables off the rug by simple wood blocks might actually improve the sound. Many engineers are flat earthers. There is nothing that matters except basic classical electrical theory. All caps were equal until Richard Marsh's two part article years ago in Audio Magazine. And Marsh was a physicist at Lawrence Livermore laboratories.


Flat Earthers? 

I just finished getting 13kw of solar installed on my house. Naturally as a flat earther myself, I did a lot of research into the technology before committing to a deal. I read a lot of research into inverter design and panel chemistry, all in the interest of efficiency. But I found nothing in the way of better wiring? What is universally used is standard THHN building wire. So with all these break throughs in electrical wire by the audiophile cable industry, why is none of this technology being applied to the multi billion dollar solar power industry?

A couple of years ago I read an article in the IEEE journal about the Tesla motor and how they were using multiple DSP's to produce the most efficient multiphase AC motor drive waveform on a microsecond by microsecond basis. They are attempting to squeeze every last bit of power from that battery. But once again, no mention of any advanced cable technology being employed to spite the numerous reports of superior conductivity by the audiophile speaker and power cord makers.

And let's not forget the mega computer networking industry segment. Sure they have made vast improvements in high speed signal transmission but again not much in the way of better wires. And what research that has been done with cable design is well documented in technical journals with full disclosure if the underlying science.

So why are all these ground shattering break throughs in cable design solely limited to high end consumer audio? Why are the vendors always small companies based in lower rent industrial park suits - or in their personal garage/basement in some cases?

Something just doesn't add up here!

As for capacitors, what competent EE ever said all caps are the same?

Here is a cut and paste from the online Digikey catalog for capacitors.

Ceramic Capacitors (190320 items) Capacitors
Aluminum Capacitors (82734 items) Capacitors
Film Capacitors (21606 items) Capacitors
Tantalum Capacitors (54110 items) Capacitors
Electric Double Layer Capacitors, Supercaps (882 items) Capacitors
Aluminum - Polymer Capacitors (7268 items) Capacitors
Tantalum - Polymer Capacitors (4487 items) Capacitors
Mica and PTFE Capacitors (3880 items) Capacitors
Trimmers, Variable Capacitors (1426 items) Capacitors
Capacitor Kits (268 items) Kits
Thin Film Capacitors (2242 items) Capacitors
Capacitor Arrays (2145 items) Capacitors
Feed Through Capacitors (1326 items) Filters
Silicon Capacitors (321 items) Capacitors
Accessories (199 items) Capacitors

I didn't add it up but there must be approaching a million items in that list. And as I am educated as an RF engineer I can assure you that capacitor style selection is no joke in that field. I have also done high speed video AtoD conversion work in the early 80s. Getting that sample and hold circuit capacitance right was no walk in the park (in those days of course). Here dielectric absorption problems are very pronounced.

Now also as a hobbyist audiophile I have built quite a few amplifiers over the years and I'll be damned if I can measure the difference using lab grade test equipment at work between a film cap and bipolar electrolytic cap in an audio coupling application. And of course I didn't hear any difference either!

So it's not a question if all capacitors are the same, they aren't. The real question is how much of a detrimental effect those short comings are at audio frequencies.

Honestly Mark, based on your reputation here I am surprised by your last post here. If you did read that paper or sat through the course you already know that Bill and his colleagues don't buy into the audiophile junk science either. In fact he is rather belittling in that paper. But I guess he's just another Flat Earther


----------



## markrubin

thread cleanup

going forward, please limit your posts to technical issues


----------



## Glimmie

mark haflich said:


> I did not call you a flat earther though you may be with respect to certain things. What you can hear only you know. In my younger day, we played with caps a lot and sadly because of demise of plated through circuitry cap selection in the audio field has diminished. I remember using scopes and analyzers to compare input out put signals using recordings with a lot of high frequency detail. We tested a lot of things. Shunt caps of various types and we tested cables. And the photos of the screens showed great differences in the passing of detail. I remember how different and better sounding to my ears in those days how home made cables sounded, twin lead flat cable wrapped in an aluminum foil shield compared to generic giveaway cables.


The practice of passing signals through capacitors and noting the differences is covered well by Ron Elliot and others. The fact that a difference is shown does not mean the effect is detrimental to audio signals passing through. You need to analyze the circuit and application as a whole. The fact that a capacitor blocks DC is a difference right there. If I want to pass DC, then no capacitor is any good is it? If capacitors were transparent across the board, of what use would they be? 


> This is not a forum where one who believes cables make a difference should participate in cable discussions. I remember testing three MIT cables by a//c ing only by changing the cable going from a tone arm connector box to a preamp. The system altogether say 25 years ago was say $12,000. The differences between a $50, vs $100, vs $150 cable were staggering. With the more expensive cable allowing the position and height of each of three back ground singers to be heard rather than sounding like one combined voice.


Without being part of your dynamic tests, I can't comment on why you heard differences. There must be a reason, there always is.



> As to your solar cabling, of course its a perfect analogy and rebuttal. Congrats. Those cables carry very low voltages and high frequency lets call it noise with respect to the ac generated by a solar panel system must faithfully be passed. Series loop impedance, damping factors, these are critical to getting high efficiency performance out of a solar panel system.
> 
> Your analogy is absurd. You are a smart guy. I am a smart guy. You have a degree in Engineering. I have a degree in Engineering. I remember things I was taught as gospel being later proven wrong.


I think I did state my comments were related to speaker and power cords where most of the audiophile cable vendors tout superior conductivity, not interconnects. That is relevant to any electrical energy distribution. And my Tesla analogy is even more pointed. If they are creating complex waveforms to drive a motor, then we are talking about audio like signals at high power levels. Solar panels are DC to the inverter so there is no sereis loop IMPEDANCE, resistance, yes. But what about Tesla, there sure is series loop impedance feeding that motor with AC signals. And what is "damping factors" as it applies to cables? I have never heard of that. Can you point me to an accredited reference so I can learn?

_EDIT: Google is my friend. There is in fact a wealth of formal engineering information available on cable damping! It all centers on rigging and applications like suspension bridges! But I found nothing of an electrical nature!_

Ok so you don't like those two analogies. You like the examples of low voltage and low current yet complex signals in interconnect cables. Well what about all the physics labs that are analyzing stuff in the nanovolt range. Medical science probably has similar needs. I see no proof of these audiophile cable technologies being applied there. How do I know that? Simple! If some prestigious lab were to buy wire form an audiophile cable vendor, the vendor would have a field day in the audiophile press with this. I have never seen it, have you? And lets not forget the power cord issue here. What kind of cords do these ultra precision labs use on their gear? My guess is plain old Belden or if leakage is an issue, a hospital grade cord (Belden makes those too). But I have never seen any mention of some lab using audiophile grade cords.



> I don't want the ridicule of people who think that things that I think matter are trivial or represent some scam trying to pinch money out of them. I know Ray Kimber, Noel Lee, Bill Lowe, Steve Hill just to mention a few owners of cable companies.


Yes I forgot you did run a high end stereo / HT store. So of course you know these guys and had to promote their products like it or not. If I were to open such a shop myself I would have no choice either. Many customers at this level expect to see these brands thanks to all the consumer audiophile magazines. I heared Noel Lee was some kind of physicist?, But the other three are not accredited EE's are they? In the case of Bill Lowe, he clearly discloses his sales background which contains not a stitch of any engineering discipline. I will say of all the audiophile cable vendors, Ray Kimber does have my respect. He does stick to honest physics and less techno babble.

Audioquest is my favorite for many reasons. Rather recently some magazine did a spread of the Audioquest headquarters. It was all about their various listening rooms. On and on about all the high end gear these rooms had to evaluate their cables. But not a single shot or mention of their R&D labs! So please tell me where all this advanced cable engineering and science is being done? Since they aggressively advertise their R&D achievements don't you think at least a paragraph or photo of a lab would have been included in a factory tour? R&D labs are proprietary? OK, but a wide shot of the room would hardly disclose any design secrets. It is all about the listening rooms! That is where they listen to the generic cheap raw cable stock the buy in the far east and sell for thousands of percent profit. The fancy listening rooms are to impress the people who don't know any better.



> As for HT systems, I agree cabling makes little difference. The objective of multi channel is not the accurate to the nth degree of the signal on that channel. High frequency detail is of much much less importance than in high quality two channel reproduction. I use cheap organic fertilizer cabling in my HT. Why. Because for this application and for solar power generation it just doesn't make a difference.
> 
> Now all HDMI cables are not the same. What matters are the quality of the connectors and the ability to carry the signal over the length needed.


I completely agree that all HDMI cables are not the same. Once you get over 5 feet, cable quality does make a big difference. But bad cables mean sparkles, breakups or outright failure. I have a huge problem with these claims that one HDMI cable has "deeper blacks", "richer colors", "less noise". Because based on how the interface and digital video as a whole works, that is simply impossible. Yes HMDI cable quality is important over 5 feet, but if your cheap cable is still providing a stable image free of sparkles, well that's as good as it will ever get.


----------



## mark haflich

A discussion of the effect of series loop impedance and its effect on the damping factor that an amplifier posses is really not germane here. Needless to say it is particularly important where one might be using a tube amplifier a beast which has a very low damping factors to start with.


----------



## Glimmie

mark haflich said:


> A discussion of the effect of series loop impedance and its effect on the damping factor that an amplifier posses is really not germane here. Needless to say it is particularly important where one might be using a tube amplifier a beast which has a very low damping factors to start with.


Rather than continue the verbal bickering which the moderators seem to be getting tired of, here is my 16 channel HT master analog volume controller. This comes after the DACs (2 Lucid 88192 units) to the power amps. All front end processing including the 3 way LCR crossovers are done in the AES domian with MiniDSP products in a sister chassis, yes that is PC chassis.

This represents a very recent home DIY project of mine and the competence I have with high end audio design. - Note the "plated through" PC board! Forget the cheezy knob. This can be the master volume as well as setups but all functions of the unit are also under RS232 / IP control via an Ipad..

Let the public decide for themselves if I know ho to do precision audio.


----------



## witchdoctor

*More Awards for Chesky Records*

This just shows what can be accomplished in a "boutique studio" that uses audiophile cables:
A great example of "precision audio":

http://www.stereophile.com/content/david-chesky-scores-his-second-ima-award


----------



## Neurorad

witchdoctor said:


> This just shows what can be accomplished in a "boutique studio" that uses audiophile cables:
> A great example of "precision audio":
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/david-chesky-scores-his-second-ima-award


I read a few of the Cable Reviews, at that Stereophile link. Hysterical!

"the Nirvana S-X strips away electronic grunge, and beautifully conveys the continuity of the space and musical flow"

I don't know Chesky, but I'm sure he would be insulted if you said his art was the result of his cables.


----------



## witchdoctor

Neurorad said:


> I read a few of the Cable Reviews, at that Stereophile link. Hysterical!
> 
> "the Nirvana S-X strips away electronic grunge, and beautifully conveys the continuity of the space and musical flow"
> 
> I don't know Chesky, but I'm sure he would be insulted if you said his art was the result of his cables.


They actually brag about the Crystal Cables they use

Chesky Records

_Crystal Cable just sounds transparent and many (Chesky) recordings have been made so far using special made, complicated Crystal cables which are perfect for our system. 
David Chesky, Chesky Records_

This thread actually has a lot of good info about cables, not just the ones they use at Chesky.


----------



## KitKatHT

I like the use of PVC for keeping connections clean. My AC wires are always ran through PVC and kept way from other cables.

Another choice is inexpensive pipe foam weatherproofing, as it bends easy and keep cables separated/


----------



## dnoonie

KitKatHT said:


> I like the use of PVC for keeping connections clean. *My AC wires are always ran through PVC* and kept way from other cables.
> 
> Another choice is inexpensive pipe foam weatherproofing, as it bends easy and keep cables separated/


Maybe you know this already but...Only AC wire without the outer insulation should be run through PVC (use 3 separate wires in PVC). The reason is heat build up, it can cook the insulation covering the wire with the extra heat insulation of the PVC. That's why it's against code to run jacketed AC in PVC. Building codes aren't just funny rules there's usually a good reason for them, a certified electrician explained this to me a couple week ago. There are also rules for the number of AC wires that can be run through a particular size of PVC.

Low voltage signal wires it's fine.

Cheers,


----------



## KitKatHT

dnoonie said:


> Maybe you know this already but...Only AC wire without the outer insulation should be run through PVC (use 3 separate wires in PVC). The reason is heat build up, it can cook the insulation covering the wire with the extra heat insulation of the PVC. That's why it's against code to run jacketed AC in PVC. Building codes aren't just funny rules there's usually a good reason for them, a certified electrician explained this to me a couple week ago. There are also rules for the number of AC wires that can be run through a particular size of PVC.
> 
> Low voltage signal wires it's fine.
> 
> Cheers,


Yes, thank you. I used to make AC cables, you are correct and I should have explained more. A picture would help here.

I will add, do not use the foam with any AC cables!


----------



## GrandPixel

imagic said:


> Cables are the glue that binds a system together. There's no need to spend a fortune, but it's a good idea to plan out your installation.
> 
> 
> 1. Make sure you know exactly how long each cable needs to be. That goes for speaker cables, interconnects, and power cables. Measure twice, cut once.
> 
> 2. Use cable designed for the task at hand. Speaker cable should be of sufficient gauge for its length and power handling. Analog interconnects should be well shielded.
> 
> 3. Double-check all your connections, including the polarity of your speaker cables.
> 
> 4. Practice good cable management; avoid creating a tangled mess of technospaghetti.
> 
> 5. Avoid running AC power cables alongside analog audio cables; this can cause interference in the audio signal. If they must be in the same vicinity, try to arrange them so they cross at right angles.
> 
> 6. If your equipment offers both balanced XLR and unbalanced RCA connections, use balanced XLR for better rejection of induced noise.
> 
> 7. Avoid excessively long HDMI cable runs. Keep an eye out for signs of signal degradation such as sparkles in the picture.
> 
> 8. Use a wireless HDMI transmitter/receiver or a powered/active HDMI cable, such as those that use Redmere technology, if you need to cover a distance greater than 20 feet or so.
> 
> 9. Don't bother with "audiophile" cables that often cost more than the actual gear. Save your money and use basic cabling from companies like Monoprice and Blue Jeans Cable. Amazon is a good source of economical cables.
> 
> 10. Are you building your room from scratch? Consider running all the cables you need in the walls or soffits.
> 
> 
> 
> Like AVS Forum on Facebook
> Follow AVS Forum on Twitter
> +1 AVS Forum on Google+


#9 . Thank you.


----------



## Steve Crowley

Labeling cables is a rather easy way to find what goes where. You can use a label maker, cable tags or what ever floats your boat. I'm from the old school of lacing cables in telephony systems with all wire bundles and pairs labeled. Anyone who has traced 88 blocks on telephone systems through cable trays knows the effort it takes to manage cables.


----------



## sealmaniac

Here is my semi organized mess of cables. 
One thing I like to do is use colored zip ties as they are much easier to find when replacing a piece of gear.


----------



## richardsim7

imagic said:


> 4. Practice good cable management; avoid creating a tangled mess of technospaghetti.


Not only this, but people should know how to properly wrap cables when they're not using them

A good example of how to do this here:

https://youtu.be/edWQfNnj5P4?t=40

Also I would advise using velcro over cable ties as to avoid damaging the copper inside the cables (and DEFINITELY use velcro when it comes to fibre!)


----------



## catodici

dnoonie said:


> For long term labels I put a nylon zip tie on the cable and put the tape on the zip tie since the tape will leave sticky goo on the cable if left on for a month. Goo Gone (or other citrus cleaner) takes tape goo off nice, then use rubbing alc to take off the goo gone.


Could you post a picture of that?


----------



## dnoonie

catodici said:


> Could you post a picture of that?


Sure. Please excuse the poor pic quality...and it should be BDP-93 not BD 93, they're quickly done with my cellular device.

Parts needed: Sharpie, white tape, zip tie, scissors.

Put the zip tie on the cable and cut the length shorter than your label.

Write on the white tape twice (once for each side because you can't always turn it over once it's plugged in).

Fold the tape over so that it folds on itself and will stick to the zip tie.

Done

If you need to do a lot of labeling consider a cable labeler.


Cheers,


----------



## 2channel8

*Save headaches*

If you are having ground loop problems may I suggest that you check your outlet(s) with a $5 plug tester before you too go crazy digging into connection/cable issues. When I added a phono pre to my setup this year, I got an awful hum. I tried several different grounding combinations: TT to pre, pre to amp, TT to amp, both to amp. Then I got out my Stanley tester. The outlet had a ground error. I traced it back to the first outlet box in the circuit. The idiot electrician (me) didn't tighten the ground wire from the panel to the box well enough. I made him fix it no charge. Problem solved. I was surprised that none of the other equipment attached to this circuit had acted up.


----------



## 2channel8

Neurorad said:


> I read a few of the Cable Reviews, at that Stereophile link. Hysterical!
> 
> "the Nirvana S-X strips away electronic grunge, and beautifully conveys the continuity of the space and musical flow"
> 
> I don't know Chesky, but I'm sure he would be insulted if you said his art was the result of his cables.


With a name like NeuroRad, I'd think you would appreciate the sensitivity of conductors. For instance, mild stimulation of the Vegus can affect emotions, appetite, and addictive behavior.
From an old MRI tech and an aide back in the day of direct sticks.


----------



## kevon27

For the Win.. No wiring mess.


----------



## torii

^^^^^ o hell no, not even from sennheiser or other brands

to clarify, this means you alone...cant share


----------



## malba2366

Skimanfz1 said:


> Why? Because it looks neater? Imagine trying to trace one of the 8 XLR connected cables in the illustration in that big fat bundle. Now imagine tracing the same cable hung loosely.


No need to trace the XLR cable....just number or letter each end so you know where it is coming and going from.


----------



## Steve544

Those XLR cables look awful heavy in that bundle...over time that must do some harm to the inputs.


----------



## bobpaule

toddman36 said:


> This is Exactly what I do, label both ends of the cabling....


Words of wisdom, saves a lot of pain trying to trace cables.

I use white electrician's tape with a mini sharpie on a lanyard around my neck when I work on the system.

The only unlabeled cables in my system are ethernet ones.


----------



## BiggAW

I wire everything on the ground in front of my TV stand at a 90 degree angle to the TV stand, so that when the components are put into the stand, they have enough room to come back out to the same spot that they were wired in. The only problem is that my AVR is now too deep for my TV stand, so I had to be very careful to not use up any more depth than necessary with the extra cable length. Lighter components like a Roku are also problematic, as they can end up at weird angles due to heavy wiring.


----------



## qwho51

After all is said and done regarding cabling do’s and dunt’s, sorry Ricky Ricardo, let us not forget to align all cables with the lines of the earths magnetic field.


----------



## tenthplanet

qwho51 said:


> After all is said and done regarding cabling do’s and dunt’s, sorry Ricky Ricardo, let us not forget to align all cables with the lines of the earths magnetic field.


You'll need a ground penetrating radar to do that, unless you what to try using a meter and an oscilloscope. But if you use the scope you have to compensate for Lirpa-Resonata distortion.


----------



## qwho51

I was afraid of that but did not want to raise the alarm just yet. I do not know what will happen when the poles flip. I just hope there will be enough cable ties to address the chaos.


----------



## impala454

I honestly never understood why folks think velcro is better than zip ties. Is it simply because it's re-usable? Zip ties are cheap and IMO easier than futzing with velcro. You get just the right amount of tension on whatever it is you're tying down.


----------



## Suntan

Is busy admonishing against "messy" cables yet says nothing about making sure cables run in walls are properly in-wall rated... Weak list.


----------



## Daniel Chaves

I colored codes my network cables and power cables, so each device that has network and power use the same color cabling, so on my AVR, I have a red network cable and a red power cable both designed to handle what they are plugging into. Makes it nice and easy when I am troubleshooting or need to cut power to something.


----------



## Daniel Chaves

Steve544 said:


> Those XLR cables look awful heavy in that bundle...over time that must do some harm to the inputs.


There is lacing cables running in the back that those cables are zip tied to, so the weight is being supported by those and not by the connection points. 



impala454 said:


> I honestly never understood why folks think velcro is better than zip ties. Is it simply because it's re-usable? Zip ties are cheap and IMO easier than futzing with Velcro. You get just the right amount of tension on whatever it is you're tying down.


I have used both and I can say I prefer Velcro. Its safer on the cables and easier to maintain the system when you need to change something versus having to cut the zip tie which I have seen people accidentally cut the cable or cut into the cable when removing the zip ties.


----------



## BiggAW

impala454 said:


> I honestly never understood why folks think velcro is better than zip ties. Is it simply because it's re-usable? Zip ties are cheap and IMO easier than futzing with velcro. You get just the right amount of tension on whatever it is you're tying down.


Zip ties are horrible for the cables. They crush them, and when you're cutting them off, you can further damage cables. Monoprice sells velcro ties that are awesome for super cheap, I have a ton of them, and I use them all the time.


----------



## suffering

I have always believed in good cable management and coding on cables to assist in finding issues when they pop up. I have worked plants as an I.T. guy for most of my career and bc of that, I have worked with the process controls guys. They taught me about Panduit tray. It is better than sliced bread! You can see it in my first photo, they are grey pieces on the back of my rack. It has a removable top and fingers that cable can be routed though. Best way I have found to manage cables but also make them way more accessible than zip ties. Velcro is not bad but Panduit is even easier. It also comes in a ton of sizes for about any use. You can also see the inexpensive wire cable tray used to bring in the majority of the cabling in the third photo. Btw, most of my cabling is either Monoprice or Blue Jeans. I find Blue Jeans a good middle of the road, good quality, reasonably price solution.


----------



## OGauge4Me

Suffering:

Love the D Rings under the stairs. You did a nice job that complements your setup. Too bad in todays world a lot of technicians do not take the extra 5 minutes to make the wiring neater.


----------



## bobpaule

sealmaniac said:


> Here is my semi organized mess of cables.
> One thing I like to do is use colored zip ties as they are much easier to find when replacing a piece of gear.


Not too bad but the long coiled power cords may induce interference, i suggest replacing them with hospital grade short ones, 3ft or so:
https://www.amazon.com/Cablelera-No...e+power+cable&qid=1550656580&s=gateway&sr=8-4


----------

