# Crestron equipment/programming advice needed



## A&M 350Z

I am new to the Crestron world, always been more than what I needed. However, we just purchased a new home that previously had a full crestron setup controlling theater (including screen, drapes, pj, audio, etc), whole home audio, pool, outdoor lighting, fireplace. The Crestron panel and wiring are still in place. We also negotiated the equipment into the contract but it has been removed and is not connected. The equipment included is below and was originally installed in 2005:


PRO2 Professional Dual-Bus Control System

CNX-PAD8A Audio Distribution Processor

C2N-TXM Radio Tuner

TPMC-10 Wireless Tablet Touch Panel

TPMC-10 Docking Station

3 LC1000


So the questions are, what would it cost me to reinstall? I assume it is all still programmed for the house. What are areas that may be worth upgrading? I have a Sonos setup now, is it worth integrating or should I just dump Sonos?


Thanks in advance.


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## Blowne30M3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19502138
> 
> 
> I am new to the Crestron world, always been more than what I needed. However, we just purchased a new home that previously had a full crestron setup controlling theater (including screen, drapes, pj, audio, etc), whole home audio, pool, outdoor lighting, fireplace. The Crestron panel and wiring are still in place. We also negotiated the equipment into the contract but it has been removed and is not connected. The equipment included is below and was originally installed in 2005:
> 
> 
> PRO2 Professional Dual-Bus Control System
> 
> CNX-PAD8A Audio Distribution Processor
> 
> C2N-TXM Radio Tuner
> 
> TPMC-10 Wireless Tablet Touch Panel
> 
> TPMC-10 Docking Station
> 
> 3 LC1000
> 
> 
> So the question is, what would it cost me to reinstall? I assume it is all still programmed for the house. What are areas that may be worth upgrading?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Whew, it's a little more difficult then you think. These systems are usually sold to clients by realtors like they are just your everyday receiver and tv. Unfortunately and fortunately that is not the case.


1. You will need to have an authorized Crestron installer come in and hook everything back up. Or if you are pretty handy you can go to Crestron's website, pull down the documentation and give it a go yourself, but get ready for some headaches. The equipment you listed is some of the most common equipment they have (save the LC1000's, those are junk now)


2. Code, code, code. You need to MAKE SURE you have the most recent version of the code and touchpanel files from the previous owner or installer. If it is the installer, forewarning, they may charge you for it. And they are allowed to. If you cannot find these files, no changes can be made to your system and it sounds like you would be hard pressed to make anything work at all. If that is the case, you will need to get it re-programmed and I would recommend going with a CAIP (Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer) to make sure it is done right.


3. Upgrades. That is where a consultant should be brought in. You need to figure out exactly what you have/are controlling and what you would like to do. Nothing is impossible, these systems can literally do almost anything. Shooting from the hip at your equipment list, I would say to update the TPMC10 to a TPMC8X for starters. The 10 was discontinued due to wireless problems, weight, and overall unhappiness with the product. The TPMC8X is its successor and has corrected all those problems. The LC1000's need to go to, those are extremely old. They can be replaced with TPS4L's (smaller screen) or TPS6L's (larger screen). The rest of the equipment is good.


Hope this helps.


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## A&M 350Z

Great, thanks for the advice. I know this equipment is complicated and I have no intentions of going the diy programming route! Props to those who can but for me time is money!


I know Crestron installers are hesitant to install used equipment but hopefully the original installer wont have a problem since it was purchase with the house as opposed to fleabay. Are the code and touchpanel files stored in the equipment or a connected server? The equipment was disconnected but otherwise has not been changed from when it was fully functioning.


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## Blowne30M3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19502274
> 
> 
> Great, thanks for the advice. I know this equipment is complicated and I have no intentions and going the diy programming route! Props to those who can but for me time is money!
> 
> 
> I know Crestron installers are hesitant to install used equipment but hopefully the original installer wont have a problem since it was purchase with the house as opposed to fleabay. Are the code and touchpanel files stored in the equipment or a connected server? The equipment was disconnected but otherwise has not been changed from when it was fully functioning.



Only the compiled versions of the files are stored on the devices. They would do you no good if you pulled them out. You need the full uncompiled versions.


Technically if everything was hooked up again it should work. There are variables though such as with the TPMC10. If it does not have the matching ID with the code it will never function and that is something you would need the uncompiled code to reference. You would also need to know which COM ports and IR ports the different systems are hooked up to, again needing to reference the uncompiled code.


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## A&M 350Z

Makes my head hurt! Gross ballpark for reinstall and new touch panel? 15k?


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## GoGo Delicious




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blowne30M3* /forum/post/19502188
> 
> 
> . . . I would recommend going with a CAIP (Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer) to make sure it is done right.



I don't know about recommending a CAIP to "make sure it is done right". Just make sure the Crestron programmer you talk to or your dealer uses is a Certified Crestron Programmer and has a good programming portfolio under his or her belt. Any Certified Crestron Programmer will make sure it's done right.


Also, if you end up pursuing the Crestron solution, the Crestron dealer you end up working with will more then likely have a Certified Crestron Programmer on staff or works with one closely who they will work with in programming your system. Ask the dealer you end up working with about programming.


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## Blowne30M3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19502324
> 
> 
> Makes my head hurt! Gross ballpark for reinstall and new touch panel? 15k?



It's up in the air on the re-install. With just the equipment you mentioned it could take half a day to a day. To replace equipment here are the prices:


TPMC8X: $3800

TPS4L: $1250

TPS6L: $2400


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## Blowne30M3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GoGo Delicious* /forum/post/19502347
> 
> 
> I don't know about recommending a CAIP to "make sure it is done right". Just make sure the Crestron programmer you talk to or your dealer uses is a Certified Crestron Programmer and has a good programming portfolio under his or her belt. Any Certified Crestron Programmer will make sure it's done right.
> 
> 
> Also, if you end up pursuing the Crestron solution, the Crestron dealer you end up working with will more then likely have a Certified Crestron Programmer on staff or works with one closely who they will work with in programming your system. Ask the dealer you end up working with about programming.



Go ahead and give Crestron a call on that one. First thing they will say is to go with a CAIP. Sure a certified programmer can do the job, but I've done plenty of systems where so called "certified programmers" have decimated it. Then there are some who do a fine job, it's a flip of a coin. Fact is any 18 year old working for an A/V company can get certified. Does that mean they know what their doing? Nah ah.


Edit: I'd like to point out that CAIP's are not required as there are PLENTY of install companies with on staff programmers who not only meet but exceed Crestron training standards. But if you are an end user and need programming help, it is usually in your best interest to go with a CAIP and not a fly-by-wire programmer no matter what their credentials. They don't have the backing of a company is more my point. The OP here would be much better suited finding an A/V company with an on staff programmer or a company that outsources to a CAIP for their programming seeing as he needs install help as well.


Argument for another thread though.


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## GoGo Delicious




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blowne30M3* /forum/post/19502377
> 
> 
> Go ahead and give Crestron a call on that one. First thing they will say is to go with a CAIP. Sure a certified programmer can do the job, but I've done plenty of systems where so called "certified programmers" have decimated it. Then there are some who do a fine job, it's a flip of a coin. Fact is any 18 year old working for an A/V company can get certified. Does that mean they know what their doing? Nah ah.
> 
> 
> Argument for another thread though.



A CAIP does NOT have any more specialized training than a Crestron Certified Programmer. In fact they both take exact same classes and tests. The only difference is the a CAIP has to pay for the training, unless they are sponsored by a Crestron Dealer, and apply to become a CAIP once certified. A dealer gets it for free.


Don't get me wrong, I am not against CAIPS at all, but to tell a person, who is new to Crestron and asking questions, that "I would recommend going with a CAIP (Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer) to make sure it is done right." is a bit skewed and not objective.


As far as the statement "I've done plenty of systems where so called "certified programmers" have decimated it." ( You're a "Certified Programmer" am I wrong?) I have had the same experience with CAIPS. Thats why I stated "Just make sure the Crestron programmer you talk to or your dealer uses is a Certified Crestron Programmer and has a good programming portfolio under his or her belt." Because of the issues I had with local CAIPS in the area, I stopped using them and hired a Certified Crestron Programmer full time. I am sure there are plenty of GREAT CAIPs out there and I can think of a few that I wish where located locally. I would use them.


I will repeat, just make sure the Crestron programmer you talk to or your dealer uses is a Certified Crestron Programmer and has a good programming portfolio under his or her belt. Whether they are a CAIP or not.


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## A&M 350Z

I plan on just using the original installer. Hopefully the same people are around! CAIP or not. If it was running right the first time shouldn't be to hard to getting going again. Hopefully all the ancillary stuff is still functional, ie pool controls, fireplace, lighting controls.


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## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GoGo Delicious* /forum/post/19502347
> 
> 
> Part1)I don't know about recommending a CAIP to "make sure it is done right". Just make sure the Crestron programmer you talk to or your dealer uses is a Certified Crestron Programmer and has a good programming portfolio under his or her belt.
> 
> 
> Part2) Any Certified Crestron Programmer will make sure it's done right.



I agree with the first part


I Disagree with the second part. I have seen some Certified Programmers do a terrible job.


As he said with the first part. Check there programming portfolio. Find out how many projects they've done with the integrator (more jobs that have been done with the integrator will tell you that they have a good relationship and more likely than not work well together) secondly, if possible, get customer referrals and ask those customers about any negatives that they have about the integrator/programmer


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## Neurorad

In an ideal world, the original installation company will hook up all the equipment, in 2 hours, and everything will work.


I suggest bringing them back in a month or 2, to make changes as needed.


I think that sucks you're stuck with the original installer - he has the code. If you want to use a different company, you'll have to start the programming from $cratch. If it comes to that, you're best off hiring a programmer yourself.


Hopefully, the original installion company's salesman will practice some restraint, and won't milk you for too many new devices. It will be up to you, to some extent, to recognize how perfect you want the system. Do you want good, or do you want awesome.


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## GoGo Delicious




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19503119
> 
> 
> In an ideal world, the original installation company will hook up all the equipment, in 2 hours, and everything will work.



One issue I see off the bat with re-installing this system is the network. The system programing may have to be updated in order to work with your network.


One example is that the PRO2 may have a static IP address such as 192.168.15.x and if your network is on a 192.168.1.x network then it will not work since they are not on the same network and can not communicate. If this is the case the programming will have to be modified OR you will have to modify your network to work with the Crestron system. Depending on how complex your home network is and if you are able to, it may be easier, and less expensive, to modify your network to match what the Crestron system is on.


Now, if the PRO2 is set for DHCP then chances are it will work and the Pro2 will pick up an IP address from your router.


This also goes for the wireless, WiFi, touch panels.


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## A&M 350Z

A little off topic but I was browsing crestron's site. What do you guys think of ipad as controllers? Could provide an updated touch pad to the tpmc10 that would be cheaper than the tpmc8x I assume.


Also, the rack was removed. Will any basic middle atlantic rack work? Might be another opportunity to save rather than paying the full dealer retain for a new rack.


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## Greg C




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19503119
> 
> 
> In an ideal world, the original installation company will hook up all the equipment, in 2 hours, and everything will work.
> 
> 
> .



2 hrs to re-install a system? Ha, ha, ha.


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## DaveChester

You should be able to persuade a local company to come and quote for reinstalling it all. It may not take that long if it is simply a case of reconnecting everything in the rack area (assuming all cables are still terminated).


I wouldn't expect them to charge you anything for this quote, especially if you mention you are interested in upgrading some items.


P.S. Personally, if budget allows, I would steer clear of iPad control except in secondary zones.


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## stefuel

The re-installation time will be depenant on how the de-installation was done.

Snip snip means days.







However if it was done with a little thought (Un-plugged), perhaps even marked, it should go fast.

With the front panel of the Pro2, figuring port assignment should be easy.

The stuff on cresnet will sort it's self out. Me, I would just put everything back the way it was, then decide later what needs to be up-graded.


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## A&M 350Z

Everything is still terminated! All crestron equipment and rack were removed from house. A couple large inwall panels are present labeled crestron. I would hopefully only need to put a new rack back in and get someone out to the house to redo it.


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## Neurorad

So, the rack is gone, but the Crestron equipment returned?


Where did the rack go?


If you need new equipment, in a new rack, programming will be required. It's not the rack that is the problem, it's the source components that were in the rack.


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## 39CentStamp

IMO the 2 hours (more like a full day imo) neurorad estimated is possible if and only if they neatly unplugged everything and everything is labeled. The problem though is that people tend to yank and cut wires. A cut cat5 could cost you an hour trying to figure out where it goes.


You will need to pay 2 guys (at least) to come out for a few days and reverse engineer the system. They need to figure out what products went where. This can be a pita when you have multiple same model touchpanels."what room does it go in".


With your amplifier and pad8.. what zone goes to what room? They wont know it until the get the system connected and start trying things. You need to know what pair of speakers goes to what output on the amp then you have to figure out what output from the pad8 goes to what input on the amp and so on and so forth for the subsystems etc.


First thing to do is contact the original dealer and pray they can make this painless for you. If they cant.. then IMO i would consider having the new company rewrite the program from scratch. This will cost less because they will just connect the system however they want and match that in the program. The money spent on programming will save days in labor and you can negotiate your copy of the code this time and you wont be in this position next time you want to make changes.


The LC-1000's suck but they are ok to use again. I would lose the TPMC-10 and replace it with an iPad. You cant get replacement batteries for the TPMC-10 and it will soon be a boat anchor.


Sonos cant be truly integrated but you can easily add it as a source since you already own it. You could use an iPad to control the crestron system and then switch apps to control sonos. I have customers who do that with apple airports.


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## A&M 350Z

Neurorad you are correct. The problem will be that I will have completely differnt theater equipment! Guess it probably will need some significant reprogramming. I guess the step is to get the rack and my theater equipment installed. Then get the crestron folks involved and hang on tight to my wallet!


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## Greg C

If you have different equipment, just start from scratch with the programing.


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## stefuel

I just re-read the first post and best I can tell, you just got the "control system" and not the display, screen and source equipment for the theater along with any other controlled devices. If that's the case you will be starting from scratch. I mistakenly thought you had a whole system in place to reconnect. You have your work cut out for you. Add some zero's to the cost.


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## stefuel

Damn, no replies. Checking my self for stink.









This thread came to a screeching hault. I hate being the bearer of bad news.

Sounds like he's got a Corvette engine sitting on the garage floor but where's the rest of the car


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## A&M 350Z

Yeah, I know. Sorry I didn't get back. Long hours on call! But I am afraid you are right. Big engine, no chassis. Better than nothing at all! Plus it was a no lose situation since it was thrown in with the house. I guess the best plan to install my theater equipment which I will do myself to save some coin. No expert but three dedicated full theater builds under the belt! Get everything in place and have someone come and give me some quotes. Since it will be a complete reprogram should i care if it is the original installer? You say add some zeros. Surely not a zero to my 15k guesstimate.


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## stefuel

Before you get to involved in installing everything I think it would be in your best interest to contact them first. Some frown on integrating stuff they did not install. We already know what your Crestron equipment is but perhaps if you list your HT equipment, someone here might be interested in a remote side job. I can't do it for you. I am a hobbiest and to do so would be taking money from those who do it for a living and have been very helpfull to me in the past. Something about crapping where you eat comes to mind.

The comment about the couple of zeros had to do with thinking you had to also buy all the connected HT equipment. Good luck with your project. I don't think it will be all that bad.


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## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/19520587
> 
> 
> Before you get to involved in installing everything I think it would be in your best interest to contact them first. Some frown on integrating stuff they did not install. We already know what your Crestron equipment is but perhaps if you list your HT equipment, someone here might be interested in a remote side job. I can't do it for you. I am a hobbiest and to do so would be taking money from those who do it for a living and have been very helpfull to me in the past. Something about crapping where you eat comes to mind.
> 
> The comment about the couple of zeros had to do with thinking you had to also buy all the connected HT equipment. Good luck with your project. I don't think it will be all that bad.



I don't like the thought that they would not integrate stuff I didn't purchase from them. I know what kind of equipment installers that sell crestron carry! I am not planning on a 75k pj or mcintosh amps! Maybe I will need to hire someone on the side.


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## Neurorad

Any equipment will work, for the displays and source components.


But some equipment will work MUCH better than others.


Get the programmer involved now, maybe he can also be hired to consult. You also want to buy the equipment now, rather than figure it out over the next 2 years and then have some REALLY outdated Crestron components.


One of the greatest things about hiring a pro is that it GETS DONE NOW.


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## David Richardson

Been programing installing Crestron for 11 years. I would say ask the original dealer to put the system back together. Once that is done an iPad can always be added in. Also this gives you a chance to see if you like the system, like the original install company. Once they have the system back in it would be much easier for the install company to give you esitmates on adds etc.


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## A&M 350Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by *David Richardson* 
Been programing installing Crestron for 11 years. I would say ask the original dealer to put the system back together. Once that is done an iPad can always be added in. Also this gives you a chance to see if you like the system, like the original install company. Once they have the system back in it would be much easier for the install company to give you esitmates on adds etc.
David, in your opinion, what do you think the response will be from the installer if I have my own equipment? I have no problem paying an installer for there expertise and program. I have a touch time paying full msrp for equipment, which I need all new. I am just not interested in buying a 15k pj to get the bleeding edge. Was think about a more middle of the road JVC RS40 or 50 which of course the dealers who care Crestron won't carry or if they do will be heavily marked up compared to our host, avs. Same thoughts for audio equipment. Maybe a top of the line, but still considered low rung in comparison Integra pre-pro and splurge on the amp. I sold all my equipment with our theater when we sold our last house.


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## David Richardson

Heck I don't want to pay my HVAC guy his rates but I do. Everythings cost. If one doesn't want to pay our rate then that is their choice. Market value as they say.


The reason most CIs don't like to work with old gear as they don't know if it works, how it works fully, how much time it takes to deal with your gear. If it is our gear I know how long things will take and will give a fair bid. You are asking me to work with something I may or may not have dealt with, so I bid high it is all about at the end of the day being able to put gas in the car and food on the table. Yes some will MSRP some items and you can say yes or no. Paying for leading edge is always expensive with anything.


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## A&M 350Z

I think you misunderstood me. "Heck I don't want to pay my HVAC guy his rates but I do. Everythings cost. If one doesn't want to pay our rate then that is their choice. Market value as they say. " I don't mind the high price for install, it is definitely a very skilled commodity. It is the overpriced equipment. For instance, when I bought my first PJ, the local av store wanted 2k more than other authorized stores like avs. Look, I could pay 6k for a 720p SIM2 or a few grand less for a 1080p JVC that will provide equal or better picture quality and features.


"The reason most CIs don't like to work with old gear as they don't know if it works, how it works fully, how much time it takes to deal with your gear. If it is our gear I know how long things will take and will give a fair bid. " Not talking about old equipment. I don't know that I buy you don't know how it works. Whether it is a barebones Panasonic or a Titan they all still have similar function. On/off, source, etc. One just works much better. Maybe from the programming end some are more difficult? I still feel like an installer refusing to work on a theater because it doesn't have there equipment is silly. But if they have enough business and can afford to turn people away, more power to them.


Regardless, I understand there is always a trade off of pro vs diy. I just wish the home theater stores would be willing to carry lower end products and get true theater experience to the masses, not the HTIB experience. My first theater had very basic equipment but everyone was blown away with the experience and the cost. Most people assume a home theater has to cost at least 100k.


I do very much appreciate the help and advice you have given.


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## petemcn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19525159
> 
> 
> I think you misunderstood me. "Heck I don't want to pay my HVAC guy his rates but I do. Everythings cost. If one doesn't want to pay our rate then that is their choice. Market value as they say. " I don't mind the high price for install, it is definitely a very skilled commodity. It is the overpriced equipment. For instance, when I bought my first PJ, the local av store wanted 2k more than other authorized stores like avs. Look, I could pay 6k for a 720p SIM2 or a few grand less for a 1080p JVC that will provide equal or better picture quality and features.
> 
> 
> "The reason most CIs don't like to work with old gear as they don't know if it works, how it works fully, how much time it takes to deal with your gear. If it is our gear I know how long things will take and will give a fair bid. " Not talking about old equipment. I don't know that I buy you don't know how it works. Whether it is a barebones Panasonic or a Titan they all still have similar function. On/off, source, etc. One just works much better. Maybe from the programming end some are more difficult? I still feel like an installer refusing to work on a theater because it doesn't have there equipment is silly. But if they have enough business and can afford to turn people away, more power to them.
> 
> 
> Regardless, I understand there is always a trade off of pro vs diy. I just wish the home theater stores would be willing to carry lower end products and get true theater experience to the masses, not the HTIB experience. My first theater had very basic equipment but everyone was blown away with the experience and the cost. Most people assume a home theater has to cost at least 100k.
> 
> 
> I do very much appreciate the help and advice you have given.



I think the real question that comes up right now is "Why are you looking to install a Crestron system?" I recognize you have some hardware from your home purchase that you are hoping to use, but IMO you will end up spending far more money utilizing that hardware and having a Crestron system than just writing it off or selling it on Ebay and going with something else. Don't get me wrong, I think Crestron offers a lot (which is why I have a system) but whenever customers start asking the questions that you are asking, it usually means that a Crestron system isn't right for them.


Crestron systems are great for somebody who wants to hire a professional, give them a budget and a list of wants and expects a finished product. Not for somebody who likes the idea of Crestron but wants to purchase their own equipment and is looking for the Crestron dealer to "just" program the whole thing. There are many other systems out there and people who will help you automate them which will fully allow you to buy exactly the hardware you want and seek out the best prices for that equipment. Crestron just isn't one of them.


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## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19525159
> 
> 
> Whether it is a barebones Panasonic or a Titan they all still have similar function. On/off, source, etc. One just works much better. Maybe from the programming end some are more difficult?



It is not the programming but compatibility which kills us. Recently we did a remote install which was supposed to be single day affair. A simple theater where we provided the projector and rest of the AV system sans the Sony LCD TV the customer had bought. Well, our guy gets down there, installs it and all is working. Thirty minutes later, the Sony TV shuts down claiming there is no signal on HDMI. They string a cable to the Blu-ray source directly and the TV lights up. Route it back through the processor and no joy. So the arrow points at the processor except that the same processor is driving the projector we sold and it was working perfectly. And again, even the Sony TV worked great for 30 minutes. Many, many tests later, and a number of phone calls back and forth and we hear that Sony TV has had this issue before and that a secret handshake forces a hard reset which fixes the problem. We do that and the system lights up and keeps working!!!


Needless to say, we did not get paid for our guy staying in LA for 4 days working on this. We ate the cost. Worse yet, he was a friend of the store so we had sold him the gear at very low margin. Just like you are asking







. So we lost money on the whole thing. Had an upset customer in the interim who thought this was all our fault or that of the equipment we had sold him.



> Quote:
> I still feel like an installer refusing to work on a theater because it doesn't have there equipment is silly. But if they have enough business and can afford to turn people away, more power to them.



It is not that they like to turn away customers. It is just that the people in this industry as a whole, don't like customers like yourself or frankly most everyone who hangs out at AVS! I am serious. Most companies in this business like to come and bid a system, install it and go and not deal with DIY folks who want discounts, want to learn to do things themselves, etc. I personally think this is a bad attitude and reflects poorly on the industry as a whole. There is a much larger market waiting for us consisting of people who frequent places like AVS and we just have to figure out how we can work with them effectively.


I think if you search enough, you should be able to find a cooperative company to work with. Before I started my own business, I found a local guy to install the wiring in my system and I managed to source some of the components for him to install which were way below his cost.



> Quote:
> I just wish the home theater stores would be willing to carry lower end products and get true theater experience to the masses, not the HTIB experience.



Oh, this should not be a problem. At least it is not with ours. Companies should be able to offer a range of systems. We go from under $5K for a complete system to $500K for a theater and many price points in between. And none of this involves HTIB.


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## petemcn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/19525482
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is just that the people in this industry as a whole, don't like customers like yourself or frankly most everyone who hangs out at AVS! I am serious.



I couldn't agree with this statement more. I'm sure a lot of dealers would disagree publicly but inside are saying @#$& when they are presented with a client who mentions AVS. It would be the same thing as a Kaliedescape dealer that hears somebody mention XBMC.


If a HA customer is reading/getting info on AVS, there is probably a better system out there for them than Crestron (with perhaps the exception of Prodigy). It isn't that the other system will perform better, but the customer's presence on AVS either means that they have some form of interest in the field or else has a strong opinion on price vs. features desired. Both of these to me says that they should stop looking at Crestron and search elsewhere.


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## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/19525482
> 
> 
> It is not the programming but compatibility which kills us. Recently we did a remote install which was supposed to be single day affair. A simple theater where we provided the projector and rest of the AV system sans the Sony LCD TV the customer had bought. Well, our guy gets down there, installs it and all is working. Thirty minutes later, the Sony TV shuts down claiming there is no signal on HDMI. They string a cable to the Blu-ray source directly and the TV lights up. Route it back through the processor and no joy. So the arrow points at the processor except that the same processor is driving the projector we sold and it was working perfectly. And again, even the Sony TV worked great for 30 minutes. Many, many tests later, and a number of phone calls back and forth and we hear that Sony TV has had this issue before and that a secret handshake forces a hard reset which fixes the problem. We do that and the system lights up and keeps working!!!
> 
> 
> Needless to say, we did not get paid for our guy staying in LA for 4 days working on this. We ate the cost. Worse yet, he was a friend of the store so we had sold him the gear at very low margin. Just like you are asking
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . So we lost money on the whole thing. Had an upset customer in the interim who thought this was all our fault or that of the equipment we had sold him.



A clients distributed DVD player died. We replaced it with a Blu-ray player. Blu-ray player has a weird issue where after a given period of time it wont accept IR commands.


I sold her the Blu-ray player for exactly what it cost me to pick it up and charged for installation and programming (system builder).


I picked it up last week to send in for repair. I did the math and by the time i get the unit reinstalled it will have cost us $500 to provide the Blu-ray player and the client is unhappy.


Obviously these are rare occasions for your company and ours.. but they do happen.. and im sure everyone can see how my $500 loss is a blessing compared to the hit your company took.


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19525159
> 
> 
> I think you misunderstood me. "Heck I don't want to pay my HVAC guy his rates but I do. Everythings cost. If one doesn't want to pay our rate then that is their choice. Market value as they say. " I don't mind the high price for install, it is definitely a very skilled commodity. It is the overpriced equipment. For instance, when I bought my first PJ, the local av store wanted 2k more than other authorized stores like avs. Look, I could pay 6k for a 720p SIM2 or a few grand less for a 1080p JVC that will provide equal or better picture quality and features.
> 
> 
> "The reason most CIs don't like to work with old gear as they don't know if it works, how it works fully, how much time it takes to deal with your gear. If it is our gear I know how long things will take and will give a fair bid. " Not talking about old equipment. I don't know that I buy you don't know how it works. Whether it is a barebones Panasonic or a Titan they all still have similar function. On/off, source, etc. One just works much better. Maybe from the programming end some are more difficult? I still feel like an installer refusing to work on a theater because it doesn't have there equipment is silly. But if they have enough business and can afford to turn people away, more power to them.



Most AV dealers will carry products in all ranges. If you tell me your budget is $10k for a theater then obviously i will suggest you use a lower end projector. But if you call me and say "i want a kick ass theater" im going to hand you a proposal with $1million+ in hardware on it. IMO its best to start with your budget so that the dealer knows what you are looking to spend. You can get a great theater for $10k but you can get a much better one for $1mil+.


Sometimes we have to turn people away because we lose money if we accept their business. Some companies are set up to install $2-10k systems on a daily basis while others are set up to sell fewer 6 figure projects each year. Everyone has a business model that they have to follow. If someone called me today and said "i want to pay you to install my niles system" i would say "sorry i cant help you". Why? Because i dont carry niles. I cant afford to learn enough about niles to install it for you because i work for a crestron dealer. All R&D revolves around Crestron solutions.



> Quote:
> Regardless, I understand there is always a trade off of pro vs diy. I just wish the home theater stores would be willing to carry lower end products and get true theater experience to the masses, not the HTIB experience. My first theater had very basic equipment but everyone was blown away with the experience and the cost. Most people assume a home theater has to cost at least 100k.
> 
> 
> I do very much appreciate the help and advice you have given.



They cant afford to carry lower end products. Best Buy and Amazon and even AVS are reasons why. If i carry a $2000 projector you can find it for less online or at a big box store. So why would i bother selling $2000 projectors? I have to spend the same amount of time dealing with the sale and support of a $20,000 projector.


Many think you need to spend $100k for a luxury automobile.. Hyundai has a different opinion. Most Hyundai owners are blown away with their experience.. but that doesn't mean they wont have a better experience with a more expensive car.


All of us our bound by budget whether we are in the market for a sandwich or a home theater. Make your budget known up front, qualify your dealer by asking to see examples of their work and you will end up with something special whether it costs $10k or $100k.


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## Neurorad

A&M 350Z, keep in mind that most current installers' business plans include making a profit on hardware. They must, to stay afloat.


If they install your hardware, bought at wholesale, they will need to charge more for installation and programming, to make a profit. If it's a good install company, there is a huge amount of overhead, with space rental, employee benefits, fleet maintenance, training, etc.


I've said it before here on AVS - I don't mind paying more for installation and programming, if I pay wholesale pricing for equipment. There is a tremendous annoyance to paying retail price for anything. It's the top customer service that I'm interested in paying for.


There should be 2 price tiers for installation - equipment spec'd and sold by the install company vs. existing equipment provided by the client. Granted, there will be more hours billed for integration of existing equipment (unfamiliarity with devices), but the cost still needs to be higher, to make a profit.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Thanks to all the pros here for making me see your side of the argument more clearly. I think the general avs member often thinks that dealers are simply gouging us. While that may happen some, I need to keep your side of the equation in the back of my head, especially when shopping.


Neurorad, I agree with your assessment. I would happily pay more for installation if it is my equipment. Maybe it's the years of internet shopping that has made it difficult for me to pay retail for anything!


Regarding finding a better system (or better for me) than crestron, perhaps I could. It is just tempting to keep it the way it was because I will have the equipment and it controlled a fairly large amount of junk throughout the house. I can't even turn the lights on in the theater as the system is setup now!


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## stefuel

One of the things that I don't think was mentioned here is that the integration companies also prefere to use their own products because they have a substantial amount of investment in time developing custom programming modules for the equipment they sell. It's all tested and proven in advance. Those custom modules are the tools of the trade that have a subsantial value to them. When a project involves other equipment, it usually means they have to start from scratch with a little bit of a learning curve thrown in.


----------



## ddave12000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/19526551
> 
> 
> A&M 350Z, keep in mind that most current installers' business plans include making a profit on hardware. They must, to stay afloat.
> 
> 
> If they install your hardware, bought at wholesale, they will need to charge more for installation and programming, to make a profit. If it's a good install company, there is a huge amount of overhead, with space rental, employee benefits, fleet maintenance, training, etc.
> 
> 
> I've said it before here on AVS - I don't mind paying more for installation and programming, if I pay wholesale pricing for equipment. There is a tremendous annoyance to paying retail price for anything. It's the top customer service that I'm interested in paying for.
> 
> 
> There should be 2 price tiers for installation - equipment spec'd and sold by the install company vs. existing equipment provided by the client. Granted, there will be more hours billed for integration of existing equipment (unfamiliarity with devices), but the cost still needs to be higher, to make a profit.



I agree with your statement in general except for the paying at wholesale part...see below.


To the OP, CI pros have to make money on equipment in order to stay in business. Wouldn't it suck to buy a large system from me which you forced in at the lowest price possible (which I agreed to in order to try and keep my employees paychecks coming) only to have me go out of business 6mo later because there was too much of this going on? The costs to then have a new integrator come in are exorbitant - I know from experience of taking over many jobs the last 2 years. When you buy a system from us, you're paying a premium for premium service, on both equipment and labor. It costs more to run our business because in order to have the best techs and in-house programmers, we need to pay a premium for their services, the same as we ask our customers. I'm just being honest here. If you want that, great, if not, the reality is that no matter how good of a job I do, you probably won't be happy because you'd feel I gouged you. That's just my opinion.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19527708
> 
> 
> I would happily pay more for installation if it is my equipment.



I am curious how much you all would be willing to pay. For example, will you pay $100/hour until it all works?


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## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/19531323
> 
> 
> I am curious how much you all would be willing to pay. For example, will you pay $100/hour until it all works?



Not sure what the going rate is per hour. I guess if is $75/hour then yes $100 would be fine. Not sure why you ask. Frankly, I don't get the hourly rate concept. Shouldn't it just be quoted on what you think it should cost. If you get done sooner, great. If it takes you longer because you didn't get a good night sleep, not my problem.


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## amirm

Well, as we explained, the problem with customer bought equipment is that we may not know in advance what problems we might run into. If we just charged $100 and then it took all day, that would be $12/hour. That would get us a minimum wage worker+benefits. I am pretty certain you don't want that person working on your project







.


As to why I ask, as I explained earlier, the industry shies away from doing business this way in part due to the complexity and risk. To the extent you and others like you are willing to pay for actual work done, then that lowers the risk and perhaps gets more companies to want to do business this way.


The other reason I asked was that in a way, I knew what your answer would be







. If you thought there was a $100/hour clock ticking, you will likely not want to go buy the equipment discounted and then pray you don't come out upside down when the install is finished! Now you see what your system integrator faces in reverse














.


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## GoGo Delicious




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19527708
> 
> 
> . . . .Maybe it's the years of internet shopping that has made it difficult for me to pay retail for anything!



What the Internet has done is given us a nation that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.


My 2 cents.


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## Neurorad

50% markup on hardware is part of everyone's business plan, and it shouldn't be.


CI Labor is billed at $75-300/hour, according to industry magazines, a very wide range. Installers should not be charging at the low end of that if they want to stay afloat. What I want to pay top dollar for is expertise, and attention to detail.


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## 39CentStamp

The internet is here and thats a fact. A fact that everyone has to accept. The middle man days are almost over. Anyone playing in that space had better become a shipping/receiving company like fedex or ups or change careers. Products are going straight from the factory to the end user via efficient "holding" companies like Amazon. The markup will continue to vanish.


I bought a pair of $90 head phones a few months ago. Sort of. They were $90 at best buy. I had $20 in best buy bucks burning a hole in my pocket. I was ready to jump in the car when i decided to do one last search for reviews to make sure they were going to be good. First hit at google that i noticed was an amazon link for $44 dollars to the same headphones. I next day aired the headphones and got them for $60-65. I cant remember the exact amount now but i ended up saving about $20 and i didn't have to leave my house. How can i expect a client to pay MSRP on something when i cant even force myself to?


The manufacturers are 100% to blame for this. They are the ones with the power to stabilize their pricing. They decided to move more boxes instead. This decision is forcing CI's to redirect the risk back to the client. Want to save $300 on a TV? No problem. Hopefully it doesn't show up damaged, DOA or fail within a week.


For end DIY guys/gals its great. You get your toys for less and install them yourself. You are used to assuming the risk for products so only positive changes have occurred as far as you are concerned. But for clients who need or want to hire a pro... they are now faced with "do i pay this guy more for the same damn product? or do i get it myself and pray it doesnt fail?".


If my head phones had failed i would have spent another 20 shipping them in for repair or replacement. I wouldn't have been able to walk into Best Buy and get the problem resolved. If a client sourced TV fails.. the installer has to charge for the truck roll and labor to pick up/uninstall/ship in for repair/drop off/reinstall etc. It could easily cost $500 to get a TV repaired. I posted a story about a Blu-ray player i sold/installed. By the time its reinstalled i will be upside down on the project by $500. I would have done better to not answer the phone.


----------



## GoGo Delicious




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *39CentStamp* /forum/post/19534729
> 
> 
> . . . .This decision is forcing CI's to redirect the risk back to the client.



I do not agree with the statement above. I was involved in a study about 9 months ago in regards to the brands and models we carry and what goes into the decisions go into carrying those brands. I stated pretty simply, we only carry brands or models not available in the Big Box stores and we have dropped Manuf's. and brands that have gone into the big box stores.


I think CI's need to be more discriminating in the products they carry and the service they provide in order to be a viable business and make a profit. If you are doing the same thing the Goon Squad, aka the Geek Squad, is doing then it's just a matter of time. Why? Again Price vs. Value. A client shopping at Best Buy and hiring the the GS is more concerned about price and here you, as a CI, can not compete.


----------



## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/19531705
> 
> 
> Well, as we explained, the problem with customer bought equipment is that we may not know in advance what problems we might run into. If we just charged $100 and then it took all day, that would be $12/hour. That would get us a minimum wage worker+benefits. I am pretty certain you don't want that person working on your project.
> 
> 
> The other reason I asked was that in a way, I knew what your answer would be
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . If you thought there was a $100/hour clock ticking, you will likely not want to go buy the equipment discounted and then pray you don't come out upside down when the install is finished! Now you see what your system integrator faces in reverse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



No offense, but welcome to the real world! Just about every professional I can think of have some jobs that take a little time, others a lot of time. Lawyers, 30% contingency if it takes 3 days of trial or 30 days. Doctors, sometimes taking a gallbladder is easy, other times complicated generally same pay. Realors, 3% of the sale if you find a house in 1 day or 90 days. Engineers/Architects, the ones I know bid a fixed priced not hourly. Investment advisors, percentage of earnings not hourly. Etc, etc.


As far as competing with internet and big box, I don't mind paying more if I am getting good service. Maybe others go for cheapest at all cost. My experience though has always been a HUGE price difference, hence gouging. I remember when I was looking at a Sony VLP-HS10 way back in the day. Online was around 1400 bucks, in store 2999. I didn't and don't think the difference in price can be justified by the better customer service.


On an aside, saw B&W in best buy yesterday. Interesting. Doubt they will sell the nautilus soon though!


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19537026
> 
> 
> No offense, but welcome to the real world!



You and I must be living in different worlds







. I live in a world where my attorney charges me hourly rate and never on a fixed bid. If I have a gallbladder that needs to be taken out, I check into a hospital and they charge me anything they want and no way do they commit to a fixed bid. I live in a world where my contractor who remodeled my house was on a "cost plus" basis and not a fixed bid.


Yes, realtors have a shared risk profile where they charge a commission on sale of a house. Investment bankers do work on percentages of the portfolio.


So there is no one model. My question, and it was a question not intended to convince you of anything, was as a customer would you be willing to pay for actual cost of doing the work for you as opposed to someone bidding a fixed price with plenty of padding for contingency, or else, walking away from the job with many integrators do. I hear you loud and clear that you want a fixed bid. That's cool....


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19537026
> 
> 
> I remember when I was looking at a Sony VLP-HS10 way back in the day. Online was around 1400 bucks, in store 2999. I didn't and don't think the difference in price can be justified by the better customer service.



I agree with you that $1400 vs $2999 is a big difference and hard to swallow. When the Sony shows up and you plug it in and nothing happens what then? $1400+shipping+time waiting for replacement and repair. @$2999 the CI shows up and plugs it in and nothing happens. Now its up to him to get your replacement. The pressure and risk is on him.


I can get everything i need to make breakfast at the grocery store for $10. I can get enough to feed 4 people. At the restaurant on the corner it costs between $25-50 to feed 4 people with the exact same food. Are the gouging me? Or is it ok because the bill is under $100?


I am not trying to tell you that you are wrong for shopping on the internet. I do it. I also shop at walmart even though they are doing their best to help destroy our economy. What i am saying is that its not fair for you to suggest that someone is trying to gouge you when they show you a MSRP (manufacturer suggested retail pricing) for an item. The guy on the internet offering it to you @$1400 is able to do that because he doesn't have a store front. I dont see a problem with him running his business that way. I dont have a problem with people shopping online so long as they live in reality and understand why it costs less online.


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GoGo Delicious* /forum/post/19536229
> 
> 
> I do not agree with the statement above. I was involved in a study about 9 months ago in regards to the brands and models we carry and what goes into the decisions go into carrying those brands. I stated pretty simply, we only carry brands or models not available in the Big Box stores and we have dropped Manuf's. and brands that have gone into the big box stores.
> 
> 
> I think CI's need to be more discriminating in the products they carry and the service they provide in order to be a viable business and make a profit. If you are doing the same thing the Goon Squad, aka the Geek Squad, is doing then it's just a matter of time. Why? Again Price vs. Value. A client shopping at Best Buy and hiring the the GS is more concerned about price and here you, as a CI, can not compete.



I am not a fan of protected lines in general. I know that monster cable is 90% hype and i laugh when someone asks me which HDMI cable is the best. My answer is vanco because i cant get a 30 footer that works reliably for under $40.


I am not saying that protected products are all smoke and mirrors hype. I use many products that can only be picked up at distribution or only available direct. But my reasons for using them is not because they are protected. I use them because i have found them to work properly.


I am not suggesting that we engineer our systems around whats available at Amazon. What im saying is that its silly to suggest that your client spend More than $500 on a blu-ray player. Its silly to suggest that your client pay for monster cable HDMI cables for their directv receiver... because one comes in the box! Its silly to try and sell a plasma TV that costs more than $4000 when most of the $2000 models look great.


Having said that.. i admit i am not a business owner. I am an employee. But i am also consumer. I wont pay $99 for headphones when i can get the same ones for $45. I understand the risks and i understand that the online guy has no over head and might not be there tomorrow.


----------



## stefuel

As long as the cheaper products are automation friendly










The LG flatscreen I bought for my own use looks great and was at a decent price. It was not until I got it home and hung on the wall that I discovered that it required multiple button presses on the factory IR remote just to select the required input. Thank god for the RS232 port on the rear which allowed me direct input control. Bailed on that one but it could have gone the other way.


----------



## slash76




> Quote:
> ...I think the real question that comes up right now is "Why are you looking to install a Crestron system?" I recognize you have some hardware from your home purchase that you are hoping to use, but IMO you will end up spending far more money utilizing that hardware and having a Crestron system than just writing it off or selling it on Ebay and going with something else. Don't get me wrong, I think Crestron offers a lot (which is why I have a system) but whenever customers start asking the questions that you are asking, it usually means that a Crestron system isn't right for them.
> 
> 
> Crestron systems are great for somebody who wants to hire a professional, give them a budget and a list of wants and expects a finished product. Not for somebody who likes the idea of Crestron but wants to purchase their own equipment and is looking for the Crestron dealer to "just" program the whole thing. There are many other systems out there and people who will help you automate them which will fully allow you to buy exactly the hardware you want and seek out the best prices for that equipment. Crestron just isn't one of them.



Perfect...I agree theese holy words!! I can bring my experience, living in a country where home automation is not so known and used...Crestron is a brand born in Italy 10 years ago...It's for a hi end market and folks with a lot of money...I started with Crestron from one year and people don't know what they could get as hardware on Ebay...This is something that makes no sense to me...My list price for a panel is 5.000?my client can get it for $1.500 brand new with a best buy...How could i tell him..."this is a professional products so you better avoid to buy on ebay"...Protected products not always mean the best, sure but Crestron systems needs experience, high knowledge in integration, and everything that takes it to the highest point of integrated system...We have only 6 certificated CAIP in Italy and more or less 10 authorised dealers called "Crestron home partner"...they program and garantee only what they sell. Every Crestroin programmer or installer should refuse to program Hardware sold on ebay.Are you a owner?You bought Crestron Hardware on ebay?OK! Contact Crestron Italy and they'll give you an authorised programmer or dealer but they guarantee nothing and you have to pay exactly what he'll ask to you, but this is the range:$ 150/h...If you don't like...well sorry...this is the best that we can do for you, or visit Crestron.com...I'm sure that next time, he will think twice before buiyn something not from an authorised dealer...As shown by Mr. Petemcn, if you want a system half configurable in a different way,with a low cost and no need to have a programmer, but every thing by yourself, Crestron is not for you....We have very easy systems such as My home-Bticino from Legrand Group...Good price, very very easy to install and there isn't any software but hardware configuration by putting configurators into them...All electrician use My home Bticinwner can choose where to buy and how to install but if they decide to have something more...Integration, programmer and money is the only way


----------



## LanceBeasley

My guess, 350Z, is you have made purchases in the past, or have been made offers in the past, that you found out to be just bad choices, thus you are carefully weighing your options. I agree 100%. So how do you know the right move in your current situation?


99% of the AV businesses out there do relatively small projects. I don't know what the average is in your area, but in our area the top integration companies routinely install systems north of 100k, while the remainder do jobs that never exceed 20 or 30k. The 99% never rise above the "glass ceiling" because they either don't have the business skills to manage a larger company, or technical skills to bring a larger job to completion, or simply don't have the man power to get everything done.


Now, setting aside the fact that every industry has bad apples, those 99% do very good, conscientious, ethical work. But what makes the 1% rare and rather pricey is the amount of training and investment necessary to _successfully_ complete a job such as yours. That separates the wheat from the chaff.


A company that can successfully field a control system with Crestron will need people who are experts with projectors and TVs, surround systems, HVAC, music sources, Ethernet networking (including routers and switches), etc. On top of that, they must have skilled, talented programmers who not only can write software that works, but that you and your family can actually use.


I know the expenses of building such a team first hand. We have 2 degreed electrical engineers on staff, 2 fantastic field technicians with years of experience, and great supporting team.


So, find a reputable company (within two hours of you if possible) with several years in business and can show you some of their recent, successful Crestron projects. Have them take you to a couple of their client's homes to see the work for yourself (the good companies are so rare that their clients are more than pleased to let you come by for a visit). While there, try using the gear for yourself. With hardly any instruction, can you make the system play music for you, or change the thermostat in a selected room? Does the system feel stable? Is their wiring neat? Because your experience will be very similar in your own home.


Finally, great companies in the upper 1% aren't hoping you will be their "first big job". They want you to enjoy their work, and they will charge you a fair price because they know buyer's remorse doesn't produce repeat business.


I've put together a few pointers here . A good company will cost a bit more, no doubt. But I guarantee you will be satisfied and will enjoy using that good Crestron gear.


Lance Beasley

ENCO Electronic Systems
www.encoelectronics.com


----------



## petemcn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *39CentStamp* /forum/post/19537350
> 
> 
> I agree with you that $1400 vs $2999 is a big difference and hard to swallow. When the Sony shows up and you plug it in and nothing happens what then? $1400+shipping+time waiting for replacement and repair. @$2999 the CI shows up and plugs it in and nothing happens. Now its up to him to get your replacement. The pressure and risk is on him.



I've seen you make this point a few times and while I typically agree with your comments I always am surprised when you mention this general idea. When people do buy from the internet or a big box store, it isn't that they aren't getting a warranty for the product, or at least if they aren't than they aren't comparing apples to apples. It also is very unlikely that if you buy a new TV from a reputable place, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Amazonm it will arrive in a non-functional condition.


If you happen to be the unlikely person that gets a malfunctioning or damaged piece of hardware it is probable, again depending on where you bought it from, that they will pick it up from you and deliver a replacement. Yes it will be frustrating to have to wait for the situation to get resolved, but that will hold true even if you buy it from a CI. Sure they may test it in the shop first and bring you a functioning one, but all that means is if they received a malfunctioning TV they will likely delay the start date for your project so you still will be without the TV for the same amount of time, you just won't realize it was b/c of a broken TV.


We both agree that this example is extreme, $1400 vs. $2999, but even a smaller difference would hold true. It is a scare tactic to say "But imagine the TV arrives and you plug it in and it doesn't work, that is your headache now". You fail to say that the likelihood of that happening is probably less than 5% and even if it does happen it will just mean a phone call to the place of purchase and will be rectified, not a total loss of the purchase price of the TV.


Don't misunderstand my words, I read a lot of your posts and typically agree with what you say but this point that you often make, as do others in the industry, always makes me shake my head. As I stated earlier though, if a customer is looking at this price difference and considering handling the ordering themselves, Crestron is not for them. This is coming from a Crestron customer who understands both the power and the cost of Crestron.


Unfortunately there aren't many good choices for a DIY who is looking for the level of automation that the top brands offer. I think Harmony needs to buy a competitor, URC comes to mind first, and start offering something that starts to bridge the gap between DIY and Professional.


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *petemcn* /forum/post/19542600
> 
> 
> I've seen you make this point a few times and while I typically agree with your comments I always am surprised when you mention this general idea. When people do buy from the internet or a big box store, it isn't that they aren't getting a warranty for the product, or at least if they aren't than they aren't comparing apples to apples. It also is very unlikely that if you buy a new TV from a reputable place, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Amazonm it will arrive in a non-functional condition.



When you purchase between 1-3 TV's a year it is easy to assume that it will arrive in a functional condition. But as an example.. I had a client order 2 sony LCD's from best buy. 1 failed within a week. Another client who ordered 10 pioneers and 1 failed within a year. Another client who ordered 3 runco tv's and 1 failed within a year. I had a client who purchased a sim2 c3x and the first 2 were defective. It happens quite frequently. You should have been around for Phast.


If you purchased from Best Buy then you can load it into the car and drive it over. If you purchased from amazon you now have to pack it completely up and ship it in for service and wait.



> Quote:
> If you happen to be the unlikely person that gets a malfunctioning or damaged piece of hardware it is probable, again depending on where you bought it from, that they will pick it up from you and deliver a replacement. Yes it will be frustrating to have to wait for the situation to get resolved, but that will hold true even if you buy it from a CI. Sure they may test it in the shop first and bring you a functioning one, but all that means is if they received a malfunctioning TV they will likely delay the start date for your project so you still will be without the TV for the same amount of time, you just won't realize it was b/c of a broken TV.



The difference with the CI is that the burden is on them. Same with Best Buy. If the TV fails right away you have a person, not an address and phone number to deal with. You have a loaner TV installed until yours is repaired or replaced.


I bought most of the CE products in my house from best buy. I get the extended warranty on things over $1000. I can usually get TV's @ or under what distribution sells them to me for and i know i can get the item replaced right away if it fails. I dont usually hire a CI and even though i am one i prefer to pick my products up some place else because i dont want to have to stand in line at the distributors monday morning getting my Blu-ray player replaced.



> Quote:
> We both agree that this example is extreme, $1400 vs. $2999, but even a smaller difference would hold true. It is a scare tactic to say "But imagine the TV arrives and you plug it in and it doesn't work, that is your headache now". You fail to say that the likelihood of that happening is probably less than 5% and even if it does happen it will just mean a phone call to the place of purchase and will be rectified, not a total loss of the purchase price of the TV.



I am not trying to create a boogie man scare tactic. I am simply stating that if you contact a CI its similar to order breakfast at a restaurant. All you have to do is pay the bill and everything is done for you. I am not saying 1 way is better than the other. Simply that just because amazon has a TV for less money.. it doesnt mean that a CI is gouging anyone.


TV's show up and fail out of the box all the time. Most distributors make you open then and check the glass to see if they are broken. We have to sign documents that they were inspected. Other CE products fail frequently also. Its difficult to imagine when you are purchasing say 3 Blu-ray players a year vs 300.



> Quote:
> Don't misunderstand my words, I read a lot of your posts and typically agree with what you say but this point that you often make, as do others in the industry, always makes me shake my head. As I stated earlier though, if a customer is looking at this price difference and considering handling the ordering themselves, Crestron is not for them. This is coming from a Crestron customer who understands both the power and the cost of Crestron.



Its my opinion that Crestron is for everyone. I think i can bid (correctly) any distributed av or home automation system with Crestron and be @ or close to any similarly featured product. If all you want is to distribute your ipod to every room then obviously you dont need Crestron. But once you step outside of the boxed lower end products you have to use the right product. Any imagined savings on a mix of 3rd party products to achieve the same goal will end up costing you the same amount once you figure in the labor for planning and implementing the mix of products. What typically happen though.. is the dealers who recommend the Frankenstein projects usually dont know how to big a job properly and they lose money by not charging for their time. So the client ends up with a 1 off system that no one will touch for less than T&M.


The reason this point is often made by me is because i get to experience the look on customers faces a few times a year when their internet sourced hardware fails. It sucks to tell the client to get his TV serviced and then bill him to uninstall and reinstall it. I am not set up for or interested in trying to get products that i don't carry, repaired. I worked for a Phast dealer. There was so much failure we rarely made a dime and often lost money on the product. This was over 5 years ago. I have been a BIG fan of letting the client source hardware themselves so i don't have to be responsible for it. Client saves money and i dont lose money when it fails.



> Quote:
> Unfortunately there aren't many good choices for a DIY who is looking for the level of automation that the top brands offer. I think Harmony needs to buy a competitor, URC comes to mind first, and start offering something that starts to bridge the gap between DIY and Professional.



Harmony is something i only poked fun at until this year. I had never used it or seen it in action. A new client had a crestron system installed in 2 rooms. At some point he lost touch with his dealer and decided to have someone else come in and upgrade his directv receivers... reprogram his touchpanels. New company sells him harmony and puts the crestron gear in a box. I get there and pick the remote up and it looks very slick, nice touchscreen. Then i spend 5 minutes trying to navigate it. I admit i dont know what the programming abilities of the harmony are but this thing was a nightmare. Maybe the dealer who configured it was to blame.. it was awful. I reprogrammed the crestron products with system builder. Small 1 room systems. The bill was less to reprogram and reinstall the crestron hardware than it was to put in the harmony gear.


There is a product thats bridging the gap. Its called the iPad. This is the answer to taking a product like charmed quark and getting a fully featured system for less. Initially anyway. Its my opinion that things cost what they cost. What you save on up front costs you will spend in labor making it work. Finding products that actually do what the manuals say they will do can be quite frustrating. This is why crestron has a sku for everything you can think of. As a DIY the hit on labor costs you nothing extra so its an acceptable trade off. As a dealer, interested in charmed quark or similar pc based products.. you take the hit once and after the learning curve you will be able to take advantage of it.


I am not saying "ooh you better buy from a CI or you will be sorry" i am saying "if you buy from a CI you dont have to deal with product failure". The primary reason i respond in threads like this is because of the frequent assumptions that the price posted at amazon is what things should cost everywhere. We all know that is ridiculous.. or we should anyway. It bugs me that people form these opinions with seemingly no understanding of the market place.


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *petemcn* /forum/post/19542600
> 
> 
> 
> Don't misunderstand my words, I read a lot of your posts and typically agree with what you say but this point that you often make, as do others in the industry, always makes me shake my head. As I stated earlier though, if a customer is looking at this price difference and considering handling the ordering themselves, Crestron is not for them. This is coming from a Crestron customer who understands both the power and the cost of Crestron.
> 
> .



After reading this again i want to be very clear here. I dont think and didnt suggest that the OP should hire a crestron dealer unless he understands that hes basically going to be paying T&M to reinstall the existing hardware & preprogram the system. Initially i understood that he had everything in the existing system but in the later posts you realize that he has a few pieces of the puzzle and already plans to swap out most of the CE products.


I say/ask this every day.. What is the budget? Set a budget, find a product that will give you all or most of what you want within that budget.


My posts here addressed 2 different topics. Originally i was speaking to the OP about crestron but later i was commenting on why amazons low prices dont equal "CI is gouging me". I didnt mean for it to seem as if the 2 were related.


----------



## stefuel

Just for $hits and giggles, what would be the answer to this question?

I have a Crestron system which is working fine. My projector died and is out of warrantee. My dealer is no where to be found and I don't have a copy of my program. I'd like to get a new projector and add a blue ray player to my system.


Even if you sell him a new projector and BD player, the other 90 percent of the system you didn't provide. Would you take it on or refer him to a CAIP and pick up his equipment elsewhere?


Point is, not everyone is trying to beat you out of a buck. They're in a bind and just need service.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19531510
> 
> 
> Not sure what the going rate is per hour. I guess if is $75/hour then yes $100 would be fine. Not sure why you ask. Frankly, I don't get the hourly rate concept. Shouldn't it just be quoted on what you think it should cost. If you get done sooner, great. If it takes you longer because you didn't get a good night sleep, not my problem.



A fixed quote on product I do not supply is business suicide IMHO... All electronics have idiosyncrasies that we need to figure out. Product I supply is product I have done my research on and know the ins and outs of the product.

I have no issues installing client supplied equipment, and I can give you a guesstimate of what kind of time frame we are looking at to complete the project.


But if this particular product does not play nice with baluns or has some funky start up sequence that needs to be figured out. I feel comfortable in the fact that I am not going to pay for this education so you can save some money on the product. I will still do everything in my power to give you efficient and fair service. But I will not pay for it with my or my employees time or energy.


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/19545217
> 
> 
> Just for $hits and giggles, what would be the answer to this question?
> 
> I have a Crestron system which is working fine. My projector died and is out of warrantee. My dealer is no where to be found and I don't have a copy of my program. I'd like to get a new projector and add a blue ray player to my system.
> 
> 
> Even if you sell him a new projector and BD player, the other 90 percent of the system you didn't provide. Would you take it on or refer him to a CAIP and pick up his equipment elsewhere?



Well, that is one of the dirty secrets of the industry in not providing the source code to the customer. Everyone should demand and get that source code. In every case the customer has been much happier with the results.


We have taken on jobs like that and one of two things happens:


1. We get the customer to get the source code from the other installer. We actually have a job like this right now.


2. We examine if the customer was happy with the old system anyway. Half the time we find out they couldn't use it because it was too complex, too old, or too unreliable. In these cases, we show them the Elan/HomeLogic and they always go for it. We can then get them back to speed at lower cost than making sense out of the old system without source code.



> Quote:
> Point is, not everyone is trying to beat you out of a buck. They're in a bind and just need service.



I don't know how this point is related to the topic at hand. The issue here is lack of source code, not who buys the gear or whether it is discounted or not.


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/19545217
> 
> 
> Just for $hits and giggles, what would be the answer to this question?
> 
> I have a Crestron system which is working fine. My projector died and is out of warrantee. My dealer is no where to be found and I don't have a copy of my program. I'd like to get a new projector and add a blue ray player to my system.
> 
> 
> Even if you sell him a new projector and BD player, the other 90 percent of the system you didn't provide. Would you take it on or refer him to a CAIP and pick up his equipment elsewhere?
> 
> 
> Point is, not everyone is trying to beat you out of a buck. They're in a bind and just need service.



In this instance you have to have the program rewritten. Before the program can be written we would need to charge you for discovery (if you dont have complete documentations of everying). Thats where a couple of guys go out for a day or two to reverse engineer the system. Then we have to document the system so that we have something to hand to the programmer. Not just wiring and zone information. Product models, inputs used, what level of control you currently have and what if any changes you would like to make to the interface.


I would estimate 2 full weeks, 2 guys for this project. First week will be spent figuring out the old system and installing the new hardware. Second week will be spent testing the programming and configuring the new hardware. Plus there are always tons of missed details. I get to takeover jobs sometimes and find programming bugs allover the house. No one ever noticed them because the system was so complicated/buggy that they just assumed it was doing what it should be doing. Another common thing is to find multi thousand dollar touchpanels with the bare bones basic feature set included. The crestron processor can handle everything yet the original dealer was lazy or not skilled enough to implement them. Point being that sometimes it takes a couple days just to give the client what he should have had in the first place.


All this is assuming you are the typical client who doesn't know the difference between HDMI and RCA. Now if you are the guy who wires his own house, installs his own gear and only need the program rewritten.. Why would you call me in the first place? Its in your best interest to contact a programmer directly.


I do my own brakes on my car. I hit the auto parts store, pick up what i need and handle it in my driveway. Why? I can spend $100 on parts doing it myself or i can spend $600-1000 letting the repair shop do it. When i have engine trouble i have to let the pros handle it. I dont have the ability or interest to learn how to repair engines. If they tell me its $1500 then i pay $1500. If my brakes fail its my problem. I dont think the brake shop is trying to rip me off because i understand what it costs to run a business.


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/19545506
> 
> 
> Well, that is one of the dirty secrets of the industry in not providing the source code to the customer. Everyone should demand and get that source code. In every case the customer has been much happier with the results.



The problem is that most dont know what source code is and have no idea that they need it. I also dont think all CI's are trying to hold it hostage. I think its more likely that some companies are not organized well enough to have a process in place for assembling a document package for the client. It gets forgotten about. Even those who do provide the code often dont follow up after additional programming changes.


At a recent take over project the client gave me the document package. The files on the CD were months older than the version on the lighting processor. I had no choice but to use the archived D3Pro file and attempt to guess at all of the changes made by the other firm at their last visit. Luckily the client remembered most of it and i was able to figure the rest out. We still arent 100% sure i got everything but shes happy for now.


----------



## stefuel

I just feel bad for the OP. How could he possibly know how important ALL the equipment is in a "whole system". Most of the missing stuff is "plug and play" on it's own but when part of integrated system, is like a chain missing a link.

I only see a few options here.


1. Contact the company that installed it and see what they would be willing to do.

2. Contact the seller and see if he has or can get the programming and touch panel source files. The installation Co. is not likely to give it to the second owner.

3. Find out what equipment is missing, see if he would be satisfied with what was there. If so, replace it part for part and make it re-plug and play.

He does have to buy replacement equipment anyway and he might just like what was there


----------



## A&M 350Z

Stefeul, I agree those are the best options.


1. Sounds like what I will do. Hope they are understanding.

2. Doubt he has source files. Whats the chance the installer even still has them from 2005?

3. It was high-end equipment but circa 2005. 720p, no bluray, no new audio codecs, etc. I know the pj was a 720p SIM2. I think I would much prefer new. I wouldn't really like the gameroom having better equipment than the theater!


Stamp, I am the type that can do my own install and just need programming. So as you suggested, why wouldnt I just contact a programmer? Well, other that the guys here, I would have no idea how to find a local programmer.


As an aside, whats a cost comparison of the Homelogic/Elan system vs Crestron? Looks nice on there site, though the list of supported display devices is little (only one JVC pj, perhaps not updated?)


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19548191
> 
> 
> Stefeul, I agree those are the best options.
> 
> 
> 1. Sounds like what I will do. Hope they are understanding.
> 
> 2. Doubt he has source files. Whats the chance the installer even still has them from 2005?
> 
> 3. It was high-end equipment but circa 2005. 720p, no bluray, no new audio codecs, etc. I know the pj was a 720p SIM2. I think I would much prefer new. I wouldn't really like the gameroom having better equipment than the theater!
> 
> 
> Stamp, I am the type that can do my own install and just need programming. So as you suggested, why wouldnt I just contact a programmer? Well, other that the guys here, I would have no idea how to find a local programmer.
> 
> 
> As an aside, whats a cost comparison of the Homelogic/Elan system vs Crestron? Looks nice on there site, though the list of supported display devices is little (only one JVC pj, perhaps not updated?)



Why not contact Crestron to point you in the right direction as far as finding a programmer (CAIP) or dealer in your area? There are several programmers here that can also do remote programming if you can provide remote access to your system.


Armin also mentioned earlier about the code. Hopefully you can get the existing code, but also make sure if you move forward with Crestron what the code policy is with the dealer/programmer you use. Some will give the code and others will not. There are several threads and articles with plenty of details on the argument. I personally do not understand not giving the client the code when the project is paid in full. But many others disagree with me.


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19548191
> 
> 
> Stefeul, I agree those are the best options.
> 
> 
> 1. Sounds like what I will do. Hope they are understanding.
> 
> 2. Doubt he has source files. Whats the chance the installer even still has them from 2005?
> 
> 3. It was high-end equipment but circa 2005. 720p, no bluray, no new audio codecs, etc. I know the pj was a 720p SIM2. I think I would much prefer new. I wouldn't really like the gameroom having better equipment than the theater!
> 
> 
> Stamp, I am the type that can do my own install and just need programming. So as you suggested, why wouldnt I just contact a programmer? Well, other that the guys here, I would have no idea how to find a local programmer.
> 
> 
> As an aside, whats a cost comparison of the Homelogic/Elan system vs Crestron? Looks nice on there site, though the list of supported display devices is little (only one JVC pj, perhaps not updated?)



The chances of them having the files is pretty good IMO. I have programming files from 12 years ago.


If you are able to document the system well enough for the programmer.. then IMO you should contact one. You basically just need to give him a list of how things are connected. Like "relay 1" is film screen up and relay 2 is film screen down" "Master bed audio zone is output 1" etc. If you can setup a network you can even have the programming done remotely. This typically costs less but takes 2 or 3 times longer with the back and forth bug discovery/correction. Having someone come out to your home can be annoying but its so much easier to track down problems when the programmer is there to spot them and correct them.


Google "crestron programmer_________" your area in the blank space. You can also check the crestron yahoo group. Post "i am located in___________ and looking for a programmer". Here and Remote Central are also good places to find programmers.


I dont know enough about elan to be specific but as a general rule.. any CE product can be controlled by any control system product. They all have the ability to learn or add IR and RS-232 commands to their data base. The issue is making sure you pick a product that has discrete commands. Most of the JVC projectors should be safe bets.


Depending on the scope of your project.. it may be less expensive to start over with a different product. The pro2 and audio switcher and xm tuner are great products. It would be difficult IMO to price out a comparable system that costs less than just reinstalling the crestron gear. The PRO2 is IMO the best control system processor on the market and the bipad is a great switcher. The LC-1000's and TPMC-10's i would get rid of and replace with iPad's.


----------



## Neurorad

OP, You're going to need some kind of control system. Find one that is DIY, or you will require a pro.


Some pros will give/sell you the programming software, as part of the deal. Make it clear up front.


For a single room, a Logitech Harmony will suffice until you find a more...suitable solution. It will buy you some time. Will take a while to figure out a reasonable DIY control solution.


Or, you can call a pro now, who will help you pick out good equipment and set you up with a control system that works well immediately.


----------



## stefuel

I'm having a brain_fart this morning but won't he need the router that was configured in the system for any "remote" service to happen?


----------



## A&M 350Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by *stefuel* 
I'm having a brain_fart this morning but won't he need the router that was configured in the system for any "remote" service to happen?
Had the same thought but since I am clueless about this stuff thought I would leave it alone!


Neurorad: Agreed, days of the harmony are over for me. It was great in our previous theater with an IR repeater system but the one way communication always has its limitations. Wife always would get frustrated when some command was missed, I always got frustrated when the PJ off command was missed and pj got left on! Plus this house has way too many things to control with a Harmony. DIY may be the ultimate avenue (I know not Crestron DIY!) depending how much they want to get this thing setup. Tempted just to bite the bullet and do it right upfront though.


----------



## A&M 350Z

`


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/19551969
> 
> 
> I'm having a brain_fart this morning but won't he need the router that was configured in the system for any "remote" service to happen?



Any router with port forwarding capabilities will work and can easily be configured for remote access. Most entry level Linksys routers can handle this... Or you can step up to something with VPN capabilities depending on how your programmer wants to deal with access. As long as you have high speed Internet (not everyone does believe it or not) remote access should be the least of your worries...


----------



## David Haddad

Lots of good discussions in this thread, although I think I've seen them take place here before







.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19537026
> 
> 
> No offense, but welcome to the real world! Just about every professional I can think of have some jobs that take a little time, others a lot of time.



That is true but that does not mean they are all equal in that regard, some fields involve much higher predictability than others.


In my experience the higher priced and skilled the professional the more likely they are to work on an hourly basis. Even in instances where bids are given by high priced professionals there are usually a plethora of circumstances where change management occurs, so for example if when a builder opens the walls it's discovered that the pipes are defective and replacing the pipes was not part of the bid, that's an immediate change order.


In instances where the work is not predictable it's very common for professionals to work on a time and materials basis (or to quote very high). As an example, there is a good level of predictability involved in wiring new construction, but in retrofit all bets can be off. Walls may have horizontal cross members installed in unexpected places that prevent wire from being fished up the wall. Existing work may be found to be defective as work progresses, requiring additional work.


For the same reason most CI's want to work on T&M if they have not supplied the equipment. Too little predictability, and also too much research that will have to be done to get up to speed because of the unknown components. This concept is hard for some to relate to if they come from a profession where they don't deal with this level of unpredictability regularly. Amir gave a great example with the TV. To explain further, we can't even count on the manufacturers to provide accurate information. As an example a manufacturer thinks nothing of putting an RS-232 port on a piece of equipment and claiming it has a protocol when it doesn’t! We just dealt with this on a project where a Client had an existing CCTV DVR. After countless phone calls and emails and claims by the manufacturer that the product could be controlled via RS-232 we discovered that well, it was a false claim, and the port did nothing.

*This is different than many other industries, as an example I think I could set up just about any network router and have it up and running in short order because in the PC industry there is a higher level of standardization. Give me any PC from any manufacturer and I'll gladly agree to have my techs install windows on it and set it up for my Client, it's predictable. I can't even dream of that level of predictability in my industry.*


Another question to ask is does the Client want to pay for the necessary research that might assist in delivering a fixed bid? I’m much more inclined to deliver a fixed bid if the Client understands that it’s going to require x hours of work and discovery to determine the work that needs to be done. Using your project as an example, the very first thing I would do is ask you if you had documentation for how your house was wired. Then if you didn’t, I’d want to trace out all of the wire in your home, and research the equipment you own to determine how well it can be controlled. That would be the best way to generate a predictable bid.


----------



## stefuel

Heeeeee's Baaaaack.


----------



## David Haddad

Good to see you too Chip







. I've been busy really.


----------



## stefuel

I was starting to think you'd given up on us.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/19556822
> 
> 
> I was starting to think you'd given up on us.



I don't think David could give up on the forums even if he wanted to give up... lol


----------



## A&M 350Z

Is there anyway to know what av products are middle of the road and easy for integration? You guys have suggestions? The main dealer town that installs Crestron carries Theta, B&K, Linn, Arcam, VTL, BEL and NAD. You guys know how expensive that stuff is with the exception of NAD. I assume Denon should be good. How about Integra?


They carry JVC, Runco, Epson, Sim2 for pj's so should be able to find something reasonable in that category. The previous av equipment was a Denon AVR 4306, Denon dvd, not sure about other sources.


Theater lighting is via Crestron. A caen-2x1 enclosure is in the equipment closet.


Regarding wiring, the audio is labeled by rooms. The crestron terminated wiring does not appear labeled. I would need to figure how the control of Jandy pool equipment, pool lighting, landscape lighting and the additional wall controllers in master bedroom and living room are wired. Is there a good way to sort that out? Some sort of wire tester or apply low voltage and testing with a multimeter?


----------



## Blowne30M3

Denon and Integra are perfectly fine. As far as projectors go, those are all good brands that offer a mid level product along with a high end.


----------



## roddymcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19557627
> 
> 
> Is there anyway to know what av products are middle of the road and easy for integration? You guys have suggestions? The main dealer town that installs Crestron carries Theta, B&K, Linn, Arcam, VTL, BEL and NAD. You guys know how expensive that stuff is with the exception of NAD. I assume Denon should be good. How about Integra?
> 
> 
> They carry JVC, Runco, Epson, Sim2 for pj's so should be able to find something reasonable in that category. The previous av equipment was a Denon AVR 4306, Denon dvd, not sure about other sources.
> 
> 
> Theater lighting is via Crestron. A caen-2x1 enclosure is in the equipment closet.
> 
> 
> Regarding wiring, the audio is labeled by rooms. The crestron terminated wiring does not appear labeled. I would need to figure how the control of Jandy pool equipment, pool lighting, landscape lighting and the additional wall controllers in master bedroom and living room are wired. Is there a good way to sort that out? Some sort of wire tester or apply low voltage and testing with a multimeter?



You can pick up a toner/inductive pick up at Home Depot for around $100. That is pretty simple tool to use, just make sure nothing is powered when tracing wires... Yes it is tedious and time consuming, you might want to talk a friend into helping you. 2 people are 3 times as productive as 1.


Most Crestron dealers carry product that is controllable. There is no blanket statement that a line is controllable. For instance there were issues with discretes with entry level Sim2 projectors. I have integrated dozens of Sim2's, but never an entry level component... Places like here and remotecentral are good places to search. This is the stuff we as dealers/integrators deal with...


Jandy has a white box, a 7620 that would interface via serial connection to your processor. If only a small amount of Crestron lighting that could all be controlled via 1 processor probably via Crestnet wiring. They could be using Infinet and have repeaters in conjunction with what is in The CAEN.


----------



## stefuel

Well if you want to take baby steps to start figurnig everything out you could take the LC-1000's and plug them in at their wall boxes. They are cresnet devices and should have only a 4 wire plug that only goes in one way. Then connect the cresnet connector to the Pro2 and then the power cable. After the Pro2 powers up, you should be able to get lighted screens at the LC-1000's. Look at the screens and see if they make sense where they are. If you have pool controls in the master bedroom, it's probably not in the right place, unless of course the pool is in the bedroom









I'm guessing the wireless panel is for the theater.


----------



## stefuel

Get the correct router and finish sorting out which touchscreens go where.


Then go to the projector location and see what you have for connectivity there. That's where the first snag will come in when you up-grade the projector as you will probably want HDMI there and you probably only have RGBHV or component. Also look to see what type of control was fed to the projector (IR or serial).


Here's a way to sort out serial cables. If everything is unplugged at both ends, use a multimeter and check pins 2 and 3 on the DB-9 connectors at the rack end. They should all show open circuit. Go to the projector and jump pins 2 to 3. Go back to the rack end and look for continuity and mark that plug "projector". You can use the jumping/continuity test for just about anything when everything is disconnected. Comes in real handy for un-marked speaker wire. Use a digital multimeter with a "diode test" (BEEP). that makes it go fast.


----------



## David Haddad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19557627
> 
> 
> Regarding wiring, the audio is labeled by rooms. The crestron terminated wiring does not appear labeled. I would need to figure how the control of Jandy pool equipment, pool lighting, landscape lighting and the additional wall controllers in master bedroom and living room are wired. Is there a good way to sort that out? Some sort of wire tester or apply low voltage and testing with a multimeter?



In order to provide a meaningful document to an integration firm I recommend the following.


1. Install labels on each cable.


2. Each cable label should have a unique number. If you also want to put room names on the cable that is fine, but if it has to be one a number is much better because it can be unique and referred to on a spreadsheet.


3. The cable number should be entered on a spreadsheet with the following information for each cable:
Cable Number (101)
From (living room, east wall)
To (head end)
Cable Manufacturer (Belden)
Cable Model (1829A)
Cable Description (Category 5A)


----------



## A&M 350Z

Great information guys, truly appreciate it.


There is an HDMI run to the projector box as well as what looks like IR control. Don't see any DB-9 there. In fact, I don't see many DB-9's in the closet either. Maybe removed or everything was controlled via cresnet and IR? Lots of plugs with the blue crestron 4 wire termination. I know the Jandy had to be a DB-9 connection though. When I get everything sorted out a little I can get some pics up.


----------



## GreenlineAV

Crestron is fairly simple though like anything it has its quirks and shortcuts, though the shortcut for Crestron is to do it right the first time. The Jandy talks over a 4 wire from the Aqualink RS in the Pool equipment area to the equipment room, could be Cat5 too though should be 16 or 18/4.


So how far are you planning on going with the DIY?


FYI the Crestron and Elan will be almost impossible to do yourself, both really control their lines and programming is not simple.


I would get a local pro in the area to help you out if not do it for you, Im going to get killed for saying this but if your not going to hire a company Im sure there are plenty of out of work guys that will help you out. It is risky but if all you care about is saving money thats your option.


----------



## stefuel

Then you have to tell us what type control connections are at the screen and drape locations. Are the drapes and controllers still there. I'm starting to think you don't even have all the Crestron equipment that was there, like a cresnet distribution block and perhaps a power supply or two.


----------



## David Haddad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19559784
> 
> 
> There is an HDMI run to the projector box as well as what looks like IR control. Don't see any DB-9 there. In fact, I don't see many DB-9's in the closet either. Maybe removed or everything was controlled via cresnet and IR? Lots of plugs with the blue crestron 4 wire termination. I know the Jandy had to be a DB-9 connection though. When I get everything sorted out a little I can get some pics up.



If I were looking at this project the thing I really want to know re: wiring is what I detailed in my last post. I really don't care what equipment was there before, or whether cables have DB9 connectors etc., what I care about is what is the cable and where does it go from to. For instance if you can tell me that from the head end to the projector is a HDMI cable and a Cat 5e cable that's what I need to know. That tells me I can run video over the HDMI cable and use the Cat 5e cable for control over Ethernet or IR or possibly RS-232 depending on the distance. On the other hand if you were to tell me that it looks like there is a cable there for IR control, that really doesn't tell me anything unless I know what the cable is, i.e. is it 18 AWG 2 conductor shielded, cat 5 etc.


I'm just trying to give you a feel for what is going to be the most useful information to provide an integrator.


----------



## stefuel

David, not sure if you read the whole thread but in the beginning we were led to believe that he got the whole system back. Then we found out that he only got some of it back. My line of questioning is to figure out what else might have been there that he doesn't have but should. The theater equipment is gone and I'm starting to think that some of the control support equipment is MIA also. In the beginning he was looking for someone to come in and re-connect everything. Everything is not there to re-connect.


----------



## David Haddad

Got it. I am just saying that from my standpoint if his goal is to save himself the expense of having an integrator have to trace down all the wiring in the system, that my primary interest is what is there *now*. Certainly that would include equipment too in addition to the cabling I mentioned.


If he knows what is there now (equipment and cabling, both with the information I mentioned for the spreadsheet) then it should be pretty easy to determine what might be missing and needed.


Of course an integrator is still likely going to want to perform an on-site visit, but if he has already traced everything down and documented it that could mean the difference between the integrator having to devote 2 days to it versus 2 hours. My point being that with the documentation I mentioned and an on-site visit by an integrator, they should be able determine any additional components that he might need.


----------



## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/19561360
> 
> 
> David, not sure if you read the whole thread but in the beginning we were led to believe that he got the whole system back. Then we found out that he only got some of it back. My line of questioning is to figure out what else might have been there that he doesn't have but should. The theater equipment is gone and I'm starting to think that some of the control support equipment is MIA also. In the beginning he was looking for someone to come in and re-connect everything. Everything is not there to re-connect.



stefuel, I confirmed with the previous owner that everything previously installed is either present or will be returned to the house. I know the Jandy controller was removed but will be returned.


David, you are correct. I know Crestron is not DIY but I don't need to pay someone to come in and spend days tracking down wiring. I should be perfectly capable of doing that. Should save some coin, albeit likely little. Still, I prefer to be an educated consumer and involved in the process rather than saying "here, fix it".


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19562790
> 
> 
> stefuel, I confirmed with the previous owner that everything previously installed is either present or will be returned to the house. I know the Jandy controller was removed but will be returned.
> 
> 
> David, you are correct. I know Crestron is not DIY but I don't need to pay someone to come in and spend days tracking down wiring. I should be perfectly capable of doing that. Should save some coin, albeit likely little. Still, I prefer to be an educated consumer and involved in the process rather than saying "here, fix it".



Depending on the size/scope of your project you could easily end up saving yourself a few thousand by tracking the cables down yourself. And even more if you document/label your findings properly. As mentioned above.. it will mean the difference between 2 guys for 2 days vs 2 guys for 2 hours.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Good to know. David provided me with some good information on what to keep track of. Is there any other information you guys/custom installers like to have?


----------



## mike1812

A&M, sending you a PM. I think I know the dealer you are talking to (I'm local Houston Tx), but am suggesting another local Crestron dealer to contact as well.


----------



## petemcn

Can anybody recommend a good cable toner for a DIY? It would probably help the OP as well as myself. Are there separate ones for LV and HV or will the same toner work for both? Thank you.


----------



## stefuel

Once you get all the touch panels sorted out, especially the wireless one, the front panel on the Pro2 will save you a bunch of time sorting out the ports on the rear. When you can navigate to a page or subpage that is for say a Fios cable box, press any button on that page and one of the 8 IR led's on the front panel will flash. The number on the front panel is the same on the IR port on thr rear. Do the same thing for all the device pages you can find. Each device will be associated with a front panel LED.


I don't know how many cresnet devices were configured in the system but it doesn't take much to overcome the small power supply in the Pro2.


Did you ask the previous owner if he had a copy of his program or try to get it for you? That would take all the guesswork out of it.


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *petemcn* /forum/post/19565235
> 
> 
> Can anybody recommend a good cable toner for a DIY? It would probably help the OP as well as myself. Are there separate ones for LV and HV or will the same toner work for both? Thank you.


 http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-701K-...1177449&sr=8-3 


This is what i use for tracing LV cables. You can usually find it at home depot near the data stuff.


You can use it to trace any kind of metal cable. Obviously you cant use it to tone out live high voltage cable. It will fry your tone generator and maybe you if you try.


A tip for toning low voltage cables. If you have a weak signal or it seems like its toning out on several cables.. have someone stand at the other end and hold one of the alligator clip leads while the other is connected to the wire. This usually amplifies the signal so that you can tone out the cable.


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19564351
> 
> 
> Good to know. David provided me with some good information on what to keep track of. Is there any other information you guys/custom installers like to have?



The only thing i would add is a full inventory of what hardware you already have including (if possible) what type of shades are installed.


----------



## petemcn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *39CentStamp* /forum/post/19572458
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-701K-...1177449&sr=8-3
> 
> 
> This is what i use for tracing LV cables. You can usually find it at home depot near the data stuff.
> 
> 
> You can use it to trace any kind of metal cable. Obviously you cant use it to tone out live high voltage cable. It will fry your tone generator and maybe you if you try.
> 
> 
> A tip for toning low voltage cables. If you have a weak signal or it seems like its toning out on several cables.. have someone stand at the other end and hold one of the alligator clip leads while the other is connected to the wire. This usually amplifies the signal so that you can tone out the cable.



Thanks for the response. I was just about to buy this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Eclipse-902-22...1177810&sr=8-1 


It seems like there is more information given on this unit than the one you recommended. Any particular reasons why I would be better off going with one over the other? Thank you.


----------



## jdanforth

I'm seriously late to this thread but I wanted to say that you have some very sound advice here. The only thing that I would add is about picking your Crestron programmer. I suggest that you look very carefully at the portfolio of user interfaces that your programmer interviewees have.


I've found in my years of being a Crestron programmer that there are loads of excellent programmers and loads of excellent graphic/UI designers. _Rarely do the two exist in one person._


The UI is something that your family will have to live with for years and it must be something that everyone in the family is comfortable with. I suggest that you have your programmer walk you through screenshots of past work and explain the flow of the program... how the user achieves a desired goal (play a CD, check the weather, choose something on the movie server, etc.).


Be willing to trust their experience and expertise but *don't* do it blindly; ask questions and know why if it's unclear to you. There are very sound psychological and artistic reasons why my buttons are the size/shape/color/location that they are but I'm also under no illusion that I am writing a bespoke interface for a paying client.


Ask how much it would cost for your programmer to "skin" the UI (it shouldn't be too much... maybe an extra day's worth of programming time). Over the years your choices in color palette and general appearance will change. If the programmer is prepared for this ahead of time s/he can build in the ability to easily customize certain features such as color and background image.


And ENJOY YOUR NEW HOME! Congratulations!


----------



## A&M 350Z

Update:


I was able to obtain the programming files! I hope it is all there. Looks like a few large .vtp files, .smw, .sig, .spv, .usp, .ush, .umc, and a few .ir and some crestron caip pdf help files.


Here is the company that did the install if anyone knows anything about them:
http://www.premierhometechnologies.com/ 


So my system breakdown should look like this if anyone has any suggestions:


PRO2 Professional Dual-Bus Control System

CNX-PAD8A Audio Distribution Processor

C2N-TXM Radio Tuner

Jandy RS serial interface

TPMC-10 Wireless Tablet Touch Panel

TPMC-10 Docking Station, update to Ipad eventually

3 LC1000, updated to tps-6l

Niles si-1230 12 channel amp

JVC RS40

Integra 80.2 preamp

emotiva xpa-5 and xpa-3

oppo bdp-93


Hopefully it wont be too cost prohibitive to reprogram to control the new theater equipment. Theoretically, the rest of the house should be unchanged.


----------



## DaveChester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19649201
> 
> 
> Update:
> 
> 
> I was able to obtain the programming files!



That's a result - the upgrades should be a nice easy job for someone. It's a great time to get someone decent involved who can support the system going forward.


Enjoy the system!


----------



## Neurorad

If there are any...issues...with the local dealer, then you could consider hiring a non-local CAIP, something that many dealers do. Quite a bit of talent out there, if you expand the search nationwide.


----------



## amargiot

I am familiar with premier. I know the owner and several of their programmers. They have had some turnover in the past.


I am a houston based caip. www.cidesigners.com .


i can look at your code and see if it is complete. the code could be modified to control any new equipment. they should have sent you a ZIP file that is an archive with all your systems files.


Anthony


----------



## Blowne30M3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amargiot* /forum/post/19660965
> 
> 
> I am familiar with premier. I know the owner and several of their programmers. They have had some turnover in the past.
> 
> 
> I am a houston based caip. www.cidesigners.com .
> 
> 
> i can look at your code and see if it is complete. the code could be modified to control any new equipment. they should have sent you a ZIP file that is an archive with all your systems files.
> 
> 
> Anthony



Pimpin yourself out tonight huh?


----------



## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amargiot* /forum/post/19660965
> 
> 
> I am familiar with premier. I know the owner and several of their programmers. They have had some turnover in the past.
> 
> 
> I am a houston based caip. www.cidesigners.com .
> 
> 
> i can look at your code and see if it is complete. the code could be modified to control any new equipment. they should have sent you a ZIP file that is an archive with all your systems files.
> 
> 
> Anthony



PM sent


----------



## A&M 350Z

Have a quick question. I am trying to simply hook this equipment back together to see what goes where (Pro2, PAD8A, LC1000, Jandy RS interface). I have two wires terminated with the 4 port cresnet plugs (24 V W G), one for the LC1000 and one from the crestron lighting. However, the pro2 only has one of the 4 port cresnet plug ins. What am I missing? I also need to plug in the PAD8A. I have a Crestron terminated wire with a two port plug also. It fits perfectly into the 4 port plug in but would only occupy the 24 and Y or Z and G. Or do they all communicate via the ethernet interface?


Just an FYI, I will be hiring a pro to get everything going but need to get some basic stuff hooked together to control my pool!


----------



## 39CentStamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19746694
> 
> 
> Have a quick question. I am trying to simply hook this equipment back together to see what goes where (Pro2, PAD8A, LC1000, Jandy RS interface). I have two wires terminated with the 4 port cresnet plugs (24 V W G), one for the LC1000 and one from the crestron lighting. However, the pro2 only has one of the 4 port cresnet plug ins. What am I missing? I also need to plug in the PAD8A. I have a Crestron terminated wire with a two port plug also. It fits perfectly into the 4 port plug in but would only occupy the 24 and Y or Z and G. Or do they all communicate via the ethernet interface?
> 
> 
> Just an FYI, I will be hiring a pro to get everything going but need to get some basic stuff hooked together to control my pool!



The Pro2 can power up to 50W (i think). For best results keep it around 80% of the spec.


What you are missing is a connection block. There are other models and it might be a hub but these pics will give you an idea about what you are looking for. And.. its quite possible the original installer used some home brew way to combine the cables.


















*WARNING!* You had better be very careful. The LC-1000 and the PAD8A get their power from cresnet but the lighting processor may have its own power supply.That wire may go to a connecting block to power lighting keypads and you DONT want to plug it into the PRO2 or you will be running power into power. The lighting processor? What model? It may be getting powered from cresnet and using ethernet to communicate with the pro2 or it may be getting powered plus data.

*WARNING!* The 2 port connector could be for anything because crestron uses a standard phoenix connector. That cable may not be for cresnet.


I would pay someone to come out for a day and connect these things up so you dont fry all of the cresnet devices.


----------



## A&M 350Z

The dimmer modules are a clx-1dim4 and clx-1dim8. There are no lighting keypads. The lighting is controlled from the tpmc-10.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Just noticed there is a caen block installed in the lighting panel. However, there is only one wire hooked to the block. Shouldn't there need to be a minimum of 2. One as input and one an output. Otherwise it would provide power only without signal. I check with a voltimeter the single wire connected to the block and it is powered. I guess I am just not understanding the flow of things from the pro2, caen block, lc1000 and Pad8a.


----------



## weddellkw

Connection between the pro2 and the caen block should be: terminal 1 - empty, 2 - white, 3 - blue, 4 - black (y, z, g). Assuming the Pad8a and LC1000 are intended to draw power from the Pro2 (up to 50 watts total, including draw from any expansion cards in the Pro2), they should be hooked up red, white, blue, black...

Make sure the color scheme matches on both ends before making the connections to the Pro2


----------



## CJO




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/19746893
> 
> 
> The dimmer modules are a clx-1dim4 and clx-1dim8. There are no lighting keypads. The lighting is controlled from the tpmc-10.



There are no lighting keypads?! Isn't this against the building code?


CJ


----------



## 39CentStamp

Any inwall touchpanels with hard buttons? Seems really strange that there are no lighting keypads anywhere. As mentioned above.. seems against code to me.


----------



## A&M 350Z

I reinstalled my Jandy Onetouch and it is working fine. I also connected the RS serial adapter as per the manual. The adapter is getting power but I am unsure what COM port on the PRO2 it was installed on. I have tried randomly connecting to all but that is not working. Any ideas? Would the program files tell me? The crestron touchpanels are powering on but not communicating the best I can tell.


As for the lighting switches, I don't know why there are no dimmers. Perhaps code is different here?


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/20119307
> 
> 
> I reinstalled my Jandy Onetouch and it is working fine. I also connected the RS serial adapter as per the manual. The adapter is getting power but I am unsure what COM port on the PRO2 it was installed on. I have tried randomly connecting to all but that is not working. Any ideas? Would the program files tell me? The crestron touchpanels are powering on but not communicating the best I can tell.
> 
> 
> As for the lighting switches, I don't know why there are no dimmers. Perhaps code is different here?



OK, my first thought for the "not communicating" tp's is that they are getting power from a external power supply and the cresnet from the processor is not connected to that supply.


Do you have the ability to make a short cable to go from the pro2 direct to a tp? If so, just construct a short cable that allows you to take a tp to the processor and check from there. If you take the tp that controls the Jandy to the pro2 and get communication there, a touch of any button should trigger a led on the front of the pro2. This will tell you what port it should be connected to. A quick check to see if there is a external power supply in the mix is to disconnect the cresnet from the pro2 and see if the tp's still power up. Quick_and_dirty


----------



## A&M 350Z

Thanks. Yeah, when I disconnect the cresnet from the pro2 the tp's lose power. I can make a short cable to check and see if they really are communicating (or whatever term is appropriate







) or if just getting power.


Also, the pro2 is connect to my switch but like is not connecting to the net as the previous owners ip would be different. Should the system work locally though without net?


----------



## A&M 350Z

When wired locally, the tp powers and illuminates the net light on the pro2 if anything is selected. The IR lights come as well for some items. However, the tp is not transmitting or receiving info for the pool controls (no temp or status). I have tried different com ports but not luck. I double checked the wiring and all is correct from the Jandy Onetouch to the RS serial adapter (red, black, yellow, green). Perhaps bypass the onetouch?


----------



## stefuel

OK, out of mostly curiosity and desire to help get things connected back the way they were I asked him to send me a copy of his files. Woooa, there's way more going on here than we thought. No way would trial and error get this straightened out. I'm short on time this morning so I'll only list the serial port assignment. Later I'll do the IR which is fully populated and stacked.


port A Denon reciever


port B Denon DVD


port C Pool/spa


port D open (un-used)


port E Alarm


port F open (un-used)


Hope this helps get you started. If I can figure out how to post a screen shot of the port assignments I will if asked.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Thanks, that helps tremendously! IR is a mess as well, all cut no labels!


----------



## A&M 350Z

Duplicate post (dumb phone)


----------



## stefuel

More food for thought. here's the IR, typed word for word because I don't understand why it is this way.


Port A Directv HD 10 white remote Directv HD 10 white remote

Port A Shuman DTV D10 Shuman DTV D10


Port B Directv HD 10 white remote Directv HD 10 white remote


Port C Denon DCM-270 (infared control)


Port D Wright Sim2 projector Wright Sim2 projector

Port D Sim2 CX3 Sim2 CX3


Port E Panasonic PV-VS4820 (infared control)


Port F Caress Winbook TV Caress Winbook TV

Port F Caress Winbook TV Caress Winbook TV


Port G Wright Masterbed INDI Shades Wright Masterbed INDI Shades

Port G Hunter Douglas Drapes (Drapes 1-10 control)


Can someone explain to me what's going on with the likes of port F.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Thanks! The win book tv was a cheap LCD in the outdoor loggia. I don't see control for the electric screen which is odd. Don't understand how iit got signal



The tp still isn't getting info from jandy using com c. Not sure why


----------



## stefuel

That depends on the screen. It might just be getting a signal from the projector. What screen is it?


I have not looked at any of the logic yet and not even the rest of the ports.


----------



## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/20132116
> 
> 
> That depends on the screen. It might just be getting a signal from the projector. What screen is it?
> 
> 
> I have not looked at any of the logic yet and not even the rest of the ports.



It is a dalite, not sure what model.


So the jandy serial adapter is connected to com C. When selecting items on the tp, the net but lights. The rxd, rts, cts lights are on for com c. When I select the com port c in menu and select ascii, nothing scrolls across the screen. When I select bin, bunches of 1's and 0's. The jandy manual shows it to be ascii communication which is what I put it back on but still no control of pool from tp, nor status on tp's from jandy power center.


Also, the jandy manual states


"Most applications will only require a simple3-wire interface. In these applications, or ifusing in conjunction with a Creston HomeAutomation System, the Isolator includedwith the Serial Adapter should be installed

as shown in Figure 4."


Not sure what the isolator is and if that is the problem.


Also, the isys touchpanel for the theater is password protected. I know the password (provided by the original owner) but it wont let me enter it because it isn't connected to the wireless access point. Would it work if I set up a temporary router and give it the ip address provided on the pro2?


----------



## stefuel

There is a "help" file along with the Jandy module that says it requires a three wire "straight through" cable from the processor to the Jandy serial adapter.

(pins 2-2, 3-3 and 5-5). Hope that helps. I have no Jandy experiance.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by *stefuel* 
There is a "help" file along with the Jandy module that says it requires a three wire "straight through" cable from the processor to the Jandy serial adapter.

(pins 2-2, 3-3 and 5-5). Hope that helps. I have no Jandy experiance.
Spoke with Jandy, seems to be that I am missing a serial adapter isolator. I hope that is it. I ordered online (next day delivery gotta figure this thing out







)


----------



## weddellkw

I doubt it, I've hooked the Jandy units up without them before. Was the wiring all pre-terminated when you hooked it up? Have you tried reversing pins 2 & 3 (ie. a null-modem?


How long is the run from the processor to the Jandy Serial Adapter? From the Jandy SA to the Jandy controller?


----------



## stefuel

And now for your dining pleasure, the third course of tonights meal will show that the internal relay and IO cards are not used. Enet devices are the TPMC-10 at IP-ID-05 and TCP/IP Client at IP-ID-07. The cresnet devices are,


ID-08 C2N-SPWS300

ID-1A LC-1000 (game room)

ID-1B LC-1000 (Patio)

ID-1C LC-1000 (master bedroom)

ID-44 CNX-PAD8A

ID-55 C2N-TXM (old)

ID-65 CLX-1DIM8

ID-66 CLX-1DIM4


And for desert...........Chilled Monkey brains


----------



## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *weddellkw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I doubt it, I've hooked the Jandy units up without them before. Was the wiring all pre-terminated when you hooked it up? Have you tried reversing pins 2 & 3 (ie. a null-modem?
> 
> 
> How long is the run from the processor to the Jandy Serial Adapter? From the Jandy SA to the Jandy controller?



Well that sucks! Waste of fifty bucks overnight if you are right. It is a good distance say 50 feet from processor to jandy onetouch (but onetouch is working fine) and another few feet from serial to pro2. The jandy serial adapter

is preterminated.


----------



## stefuel

How can you tell what address the pro2 is set to so that a router can be set up for his theater touch panel to communicate with? I have been poking around in his program and can't find it.


----------



## A&M 350Z

In the menu setting on the pro2 an ip address is listed. I guess I could try it.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Can't seem to figure it out. On the Pro2, the addresses list are for device (192.168.1.130) and router (192.168.1.1). I tried the first one but it would not connect. I can not figure out how to use 192.168.1.1 as a static ip address as I get a invalid gateway. Anyone know what gateway address I would use? I'm not a networking guru.


----------



## stefuel

Damn, I was hoping to hear better news by now. Have you tried re-booting the router with both the Pro2 and touch panel running?


Do you have access to the router from your PC? Does the router at least see that something is connected to a port other than your PC?


----------



## A&M 350Z

No, not working yet. I will try your suggestions. Work has been crazy so I have only had a few minutes. Need a little more time to work with the router.


The isolator for the jandy didn't solve the problem as suggested here. I will keep problem solving there as well.


Looking back, I have sorted out quit a lot since I started (thanks to stefuel and everyone here!). I at least have all the wires traced/labeled, know the r232 and ir assignments on the pro2 and found out the screen is on a 12 volt trigger with a relay to boost miliamps. Certainly this will help out the programmer when I get all the new equipment and has been very educational so I am a somewhat educated consumer.


----------



## stefuel

Also, the original programmer left three back-door passwords. I don't know what the origial owner gave you for a password but I have three that you probably don't know







. I can post them here if you like. When the program is updated, they are a quick change.


----------



## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/20171151
> 
> 
> Also, the original programmer left three back-door passwords. I don't know what the origial owner gave you for a password but I have three that you probably don't know
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I can post them here if you like. When the program is updated, they are a quick change.



Sure, post away. The owner gave me the password 2006. Doesnt work though if the panel is not communicating over wifi.


Not sure why it still isn't working. Setup router with ip listed on the pro2. Gave it the ssid "Caress" which was listed on the pro2 as well. Pro2 Net light is on, router is working but the tp doesn't work. In the end it doesn't matter too much as I will replace the tp with a few ipads. Still really would like to get the inwall tp's controlling the pool though.


----------



## stefuel

2006 is one of the passwords I have here. there is also 7070 and 9999.


Double check all the cresnet wiring for the cresnet comminication problem.

I've never used the C2N-SPWS300 power supply but it is a cresnet device.

Make sure the cresnet output from the pro2 is connected to the top right input of the power supply. Not sure but I don't think it matters which device is plugged into which output port. With the system powered up, report which LED's on the power supply are on and off. I can't remember if there is a "NET" LED on the power supply but if there is and it's off that would be a big clue.

If I read everything you've posted correctly, it sounds as though your power connections are correct (24 and G), so I would double check that all the (Y and Z) connections are also correct as they provide the communication. There is a "NET" LED on the CNX-PAD8A. Is it on when the cresnet from it is connected to the C2N-SPWS300 power supply?


----------



## stefuel

We're getting close to the point that unless we stumble onto something stupid and silly that has been missed, someone with a laptop and software will have to go there and sort it out for you. If the Pro2 can't connect to the router, remote help is out of the question.


----------



## stefuel

Oh where, oh where has the 300 watt power supply gone?

Oh where, oh where could it be?



I just re-read the whole thread from start to finish and his Crestron list and all following posts omit the 300 watt supply which is configured into his system and explains why he does not have sufficient ports to plug in all his cresnet connectors. Earlier in the thread we were looking for a junction block for connection to all his cresnet devices. You don't require a junction block when you have 16 open ports on the power supply.


So where is the C2N-SPWS300 that is configured into the system???


----------



## A&M 350Z

You are correct, I do not have a C2N-SPWS300. I do have two smaller cresnet power supplies, one permanently installed in the lighting panel ( CAEN-BLOCK) and one loose that was on his cabinet. The owner states he never had the C2N-SPWS300. So maybe it was programmed but not used? I have no reason to believe the prior owner is keeping the power supply of all pieces of equipment.


The 3 inwall touchpanels are serial so that is only one cresnet plug. That leaves the PAD8A and C2N-TXM. The lighting is on the CAEN-BLOCK. I have plenty of free ports on the power supplies.


----------



## stefuel

Oh you're killing me










Break out the digital camera


What power supplies do you have?


Does the PAD8A net light come on when it's powered up and connected to the cresnet?


Lets start from scratch and make sure you're not over taxing the processors power supply. Please list ALL crestron equipment even if you don't think it matters. I'll look at the power needs and and suggest how best to add in the power supply. Then we will finish up the cresnet wiring and move on to something else.


Did I just step in something


----------



## weddellkw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/20192326
> 
> 
> Did I just step in something



Only the joys of remote troubleshooting.


I agree that one concise post with an equipment list and basic connection details would help to move forward, I've sort of lost the scope of this thread over the last several weeks.


----------



## stefuel

OK, your program only lists total power consumption of 54 watts. The Pro2 has a 50 watt power supply. I do not know how much of that the Pro2 uses but the PAD8A uses 10 watts, the C2N-TXM is 8 watts and the three LC-1000's are 3 watts each. The CAEN-BLOCK is not a power supply. I am not sure what if any cresnet power is consumed by the 1DIM4 and 1DIM8. If my calculations are correct, the addition of a CNPWS-75 (75 watt) power supply would be a good addition to your system.


So here's what I want you to try. First un-plug power from the Pro2. Then I want you to connect the cresnet out from the Pro2 to the left most "NET" connector on the CAEN-BLOCK. That leaves 3 open "NET" ports. Plug the PAD8A and the common connector for the 3 LC-1000's onto two of those ports.

Leave the TXM out of the remaining port because that puts you over power budget. Now before you re-connect power to the Pro2, I want you to double check every cresnet connector on each end to be sure the wire colors are in the identical order on each one. I think you said the 1DIM4 and 8 were still wired to the CAEN-BLOCK. If so, make sure they are getting line voltage connection. Make sure the power supply is connected to the Pad8A and Plug un the Pro2 and let it boot up. The "NET" led's on all connected cresnet devices should be on. If so, power down again, un-plug the PAD8A and plug in the TXM and re-boot the Pro2 again. The "NET" led should come on on that.


If anyone see's something wrong with this last post, speak now or forever hold your magic smoke. Time for dinner


----------



## A&M 350Z

Equipment rack, close up of pro2 and pad8a front, front of c2n-xm and cnt-block, crestron caen enclosure and close up of caen-block in panel. I will try hooking things up again as suggested tommorrow. Too late tonight!


----------



## A&M 350Z

And for fun since everyone loves pics. Theater room back and front, one of the kef ci9000, bar area in game room outside theater.


----------



## stefuel

"I will try hooking things up again as suggested tommorrow."


NOPE!!!

Now you snuck in another piece of the puzzle after the fact. (CNT-BLOCK)

No time to post a re-configure this AM. Will re-do tonight after ALL crestron equipment has been listed. EVERYTHING...


----------



## CJO

Does the PAD8A use 10 watts from the Pro2 even though it has its own power supply?


CJ


----------



## A&M 350Z

PRO2 Professional Dual-Bus Control System

CNX-PAD8A Audio Distribution Processor

C2N-TXM Radio Tuner

TPMC-10 Wireless Tablet Touch Panel

TPMC-10 Docking Station

3 LC1000

Crestron dimmer modules

Creston panel with CAEN-BLOCK

CNT-BLOCK


Really that's it, I promise. It is as listed in first post except I didn't have the CNT-BLOCK at time of posting.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/20203302
> 
> 
> PRO2 Professional Dual-Bus Control System
> 
> CNX-PAD8A Audio Distribution Processor
> 
> C2N-TXM Radio Tuner
> 
> TPMC-10 Wireless Tablet Touch Panel
> 
> TPMC-10 Docking Station
> 
> 3 LC1000
> 
> Crestron dimmer modules
> 
> Creston panel with CAEN-BLOCK
> 
> CNT-BLOCK
> 
> 
> Really that's it, I promise. It is as listed in first post except I didn't have the CNT-BLOCK at time of posting.



OK, almost the same. Power everything down. Connect the cresnet out from the Pro2 to NET 1 on the CNTBLOCK. Connect the CNX-PAD8A to NET 5.

Connect the C2N-TXM, the common cresnet connector for the three LC-1000s and the cresnet feeding the CAEN-BLOCK to NET 2, 3 and 4. respectively.

Do double check all the cresnet connectors for correct wiring. Is the Jandy serial adapter and cable still hooked up? If not, connect it the way that it looks it should be. Power everything up. After the Pro2 re-boots, check for power and NET lights on all the Crestron equipment. The first place you should see a power LED is on the CNTBLOCK. You should see power and NET lights on the PAD8 and TXM. I'm pretty sure there are NET lights on the dimmer modules also. (never seen one up close). After everything is powered up, report the state of the three LEDs on the CNTBLOCK. That is your cresnet troubleshooting tool.


Go to the Crestron website and download the manual for the CNTBLOCK.

There is a section in that 4 page manual on how to use the LEDs for troubleshooting.


I NEED A DRINK!!!


----------



## A&M 350Z

Thanks again. I am short a few of the black crestron wire terminations. Didn't get all the interconnects so I am ordering some from fleabay. Once I get them I will give it a try!


----------



## stefuel

I don't know how many 4 wire ones you are missing but don't forget the 2 wire IR ones. You need 8 for that. Do you have the IR emitters? You can fleabay those as well. While you are there, check out the 75 and 300 watt power supplies. A 75 watt will do.










Also, I think you make a appointment with a programmer to come by to sort out the ethernet issue. I don't think that can be resolved by trial and error. A hour service call with a programmer and a program called toolbox or Viewport and you'll be back up_and_running.


----------



## patb93

It's looking more and more like someone needs to go out and hook up a laptop and take a look as suggested before. I saw a post from a Houston based CAIP earlier that probably can help you out easier than I can since I'm a CAIP based in Dallas. I do work in Houston from time to time and if you haven't figured it out by the time I make my next trip to Houston I'd be glad to stop by and take a look if you're interested.


Be sure to stick with a CAIP also if you're looking for help. There is a HUGE difference in a CAIP vs just being "certified". Yes we all took the same classes, but I got my "certification" 8x10 to hang on my wall before I even started on the CAIP test. Basically anyone that goes to class and doesn't fall asleep (or at least the teacher doesn't catch them sleeping) walks away with a "certification" so they can call themselves "Crestron Certified". A girl was in the certification class with me that works for a local dealer and even though she advertises herself as "certified" and has the 8x10 certificate sitting on her desk she could barely program herself out of a wet paper bag. To be recognized as a CAIP there is a pretty involved test to pass and you have to go through an approval process by Crestron that includes a review of your business model and past work history.


----------



## A&M 350Z

I agree. I have already spoken with the local caip and he has been out to the house. Right now I am getting all my theater equipment together and at the same time sorting out as much out as possible to make the process easier. In fact, the caip (anthony) who posted here actually did the original programming for the house! I probably have saved quit a bit of the caip's time by tracking, labeling, testing wiring


----------



## stefuel

Oh goodie goodie, I'm off the hook


----------



## clkoontz3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *patb93* /forum/post/20216884
> 
> 
> It's looking more and more like someone needs to go out and hook up a laptop and take a look as suggested before. I saw a post from a Houston based CAIP earlier that probably can help you out easier than I can since I'm a CAIP based in Dallas. I do work in Houston from time to time and if you haven't figured it out by the time I make my next trip to Houston I'd be glad to stop by and take a look if you're interested.
> 
> 
> Be sure to stick with a CAIP also if you're looking for help. There is a HUGE difference in a CAIP vs just being "certified". Yes we all took the same classes, but I got my "certification" 8x10 to hang on my wall before I even started on the CAIP test. Basically anyone that goes to class and doesn't fall asleep (or at least the teacher doesn't catch them sleeping) walks away with a "certification" so they can call themselves "Crestron Certified". A girl was in the certification class with me that works for a local dealer and even though she advertises herself as "certified" and has the 8x10 certificate sitting on her desk she could barely program herself out of a wet paper bag. To be recognized as a CAIP there is a pretty involved test to pass and you have to go through an approval process by Crestron that includes a review of your business model and past work history.





Really! I am a certified programmer and feel like thats a little harsh. I have had to fix plenty of CAIP's code. I think that blanket statement needs a little revision. But I'm sure you much better than the rest of us.


Thanks.


-Chip


----------



## GoGo Delicious




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *patb93* /forum/post/20216884
> 
> 
> Be sure to stick with a CAIP also if you're looking for help. There is a HUGE difference in a CAIP vs just being "certified". Yes we all took the same classes, but I got my "certification" 8x10 to hang on my wall before I even started on the CAIP test. Basically anyone that goes to class and doesn't fall asleep (or at least the teacher doesn't catch them sleeping) walks away with a "certification" so they can call themselves "Crestron Certified". A girl was in the certification class with me that works for a local dealer and even though she advertises herself as "certified" and has the 8x10 certificate sitting on her desk she could barely program herself out of a wet paper bag. To be recognized as a CAIP there is a pretty involved test to pass and you have to go through an approval process by Crestron that includes a review of your business model and past work history.



In response I will quote myself as my response is applicable to the above.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GoGo Delicious* /forum/post/19502566
> 
> 
> A CAIP does NOT have any more specialized training than a Crestron Certified Programmer. In fact they both take exact same classes and tests. The only difference is the a CAIP has to pay for the training, unless they are sponsored by a Crestron Dealer, and apply to become a CAIP once certified. A dealer gets it for free.
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I am not against CAIPS at all, but to tell a person, who is new to Crestron and asking questions, that "I would recommend going with a CAIP (Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer) to make sure it is done right." is a bit skewed and not objective.
> 
> 
> As far as the statement "I've done plenty of systems where so called "certified programmers" have decimated it." ( You're a "Certified Programmer" am I wrong?) I have had the same experience with CAIPS. Thats why I stated "Just make sure the Crestron programmer you talk to or your dealer uses is a Certified Crestron Programmer and has a good programming portfolio under his or her belt." Because of the issues I had with local CAIPS in the area, I stopped using them and hired a Certified Crestron Programmer full time. I am sure there are plenty of GREAT CAIPs out there and I can think of a few that I wish where located locally. I would use them.
> 
> 
> I will repeat, just make sure the Crestron programmer you talk to or your dealer uses is a Certified Crestron Programmer and has a good programming portfolio under his or her belt. Whether they are a CAIP or not.


----------



## stefuel

OK boys, play nice. This is a mostly unmoderated forum and we don't need you know who to have to have to show up and start spanking now do we?


----------



## GoGo Delicious




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/20278021
> 
> 
> . . . . .you know who to have to have to show up and start spanking now do we?



Don't threaten me with a good time


----------



## stefuel

Anyway.....I was hoping when I saw some activity on this thread that there was some progress made with this re-install project.


Back to lurking in the shadows.


----------



## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/20279615
> 
> 
> Anyway.....I was hoping when I saw some activity on this thread that there was some progress made with this re-install project.
> 
> 
> Back to lurking in the shadows.



Progress? Of course! Working on it every spare moment. It took a bit as I had to order the crestron teminals from fleabay and the first shipment was 3.5 mm instead of the 5mm I needed.


Everything is wired as you described! The lights on the cnt block (power, z, y) are all lite and according to the manual show no problems. The xm tuner is powering on though it is not receiving signal from the satellite. I need to find where the external antenna runs to but the antenna is plugged in. I don't have the signal measuring adapter







. Net lights on everything are on.


The touch panels are powering on and communicating with the PRO2/PAD8a. When I turn a zone on at the touchpanel, the appropriate light on the pad8a comes on.


Still, the jandy interface is not functioning. Powering on but not communicating. Since the tp's work with the pad8a I am assuming something is not communicating b/w the Jandy serial adapter and pro2 or the jandy onetouch controller and serial adapter.


The screen is on a 12 volt trigger as you suggested. There is a relay in the closet that I assume changes the amperage from the projector box to the screen motor. However, something is not functioning. I hooked my receivers 12 volt trigger up and nothing!


Bottom line: SERIOUS progress from a pile of equipment on the floor which I had not clue how to hook up!


----------



## A&M 350Z

AT LAST, we are up and running! The XM tuner is functioning and the whole home audio is fully functional! TP are communicating. I just need to get the programmer to add some additional sources (Sonos, Directv).


Still haven't figured out the Jandy. Another day!


----------



## stefuel

If you can, post a picture of the relay device in the closet along with name/model numbers. Also the name and model of the screen. Post as much info as you can if you see any tags on the stuff. Do you have touch screen control of any of the lighting and what about the wireless touch screen?

Is that sorted out???


Lets get that damn screen to go up and down next.


----------



## A&M 350Z

I will do some investigating and get some pictures tonight.


Unfortunately the touchpanels are not programmed to control the lighting in the theater. I am still manually turning the lights on/off at the dim modules. All the theater controls was on the wireless touchscreen which I haven't been able to configure because of the network issue.


Getting the screen up and down would be money. Once that is done, I can get my pj setup.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Here are pictures. In the picture of the relay the twisted blue and white cat5 wire at the bottom run to the pj booth. The white wires at the bottom of the relay plug into the wall. The red, white, black wires at the top run to the screen motor.


The relay is a:

NTE Electronics

R95-110, 300V 10A.


The coil on the relay coil states:

R14-11D10-12

Coil: 12vdc

1/2 HP 120VAC

12A 240VAC RES


The screen info is:


Dalite Model: HD060106 115 VAC 60 Hz

Part: 84326

Order: 908310

Fabric: V3


The 84326 appears to be a Advantage Electrol Motorized. What fabric is V3. Love to know the gain.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/20328585
> 
> 
> Here are pictures. In the picture of the relay the twisted blue and white cat5 wire at the bottom run to the pj booth. The white wires at the bottom of the relay plug into the wall. The red, white, black wires at the top run to the screen motor.
> 
> 
> The relay is a:
> 
> NTE Electronics
> 
> R95-110, 300V 10A.
> 
> 
> The coil on the relay coil states:
> 
> R14-11D10-12
> 
> Coil: 12vdc
> 
> 1/2 HP 120VAC
> 
> 12A 240VAC RES
> 
> 
> The screen info is:
> 
> 
> Dalite Model: HD060106 115 VAC 60 Hz
> 
> Part: 84326
> 
> Order: 908310
> 
> Fabric: V3
> 
> 
> The 84326 appears to be a Advantage Electrol Motorized. What fabric is V3. Love to know the gain.



Piece of cake


First there should actually be 4 wires coming from the screen motor

Green = ground

White = common

Black = up

Red = down


First make sure there is line voltage power to the plug that feeds the relay.

If there is line voltage power to the relay with no 12 VDC to the relays coil, you should be able to read 120 VAC at the white and red motor wires and the screen should be in the up position with the motor off on high limit.

With 12 VDC applied to the relays coil, you should no longer get line voltage from the red wire. It should be at the black wire and the screen should go down until it reaches the low limit switch.


If you haven't changed any of the wiring, it should be OK. Make sure you do have 12 volts DC at the blue and white wires at the relay. The relay will make a distinct clicking noise when 12 VDC is applied to it. If it does not, the relay is NG. I think you can still get them from Radio Shack if you need one.

They just plug into the base that the wires are attached to. They are called "cube relays". Make sure you get the correct coil voltage.


If you still can't get it to work and want to "hot wire" the screen to test it, we'll cover that later.


----------



## A&M 350Z

I connected the 12 volt trigger out from my onkyo receiver and turned on zone 2 which should activate the trigger but nothing happened, no clicking. I need to check that the receiver is actually is sending a constant 12V DC. What other 12 volt source could I use just for test purposes? Maybe I have a 120 ac to 12 volt dc power adapter laying around somewhere. Would that work?


----------



## stefuel

Do you have a digital multimeter???

Set the meter for DC volts and check for 12 volts from the white and blue twisted pair. You will not get a shock from 12 VDC.


Check the outlet that the relay is plugged into for power. Just plug a lamp or something into it to test it.


If you have power to the relay, you should be able to read 120 Volts AC at the white and red leads going to the screen motor assuming it's in the up position. Carefull probing those wires. They are line voltage and will shock you.


Any 12 volt DC source will do it. A automotive battery charger will do it.

Just make sure to disconnect the trigger connection from your reciever first so that you don't short it out if you get reverse polarity. The coil in the relay is not polarity sensitive.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Yep, multimeter showed that my 12 volt trigger on my avr is not working. Oh well, it is scheduled for replacement!


I found a 12 volt wall wart and it worked great! Screen comes down perfectly. I am disappointed the screen is not tensioned and is slightly wrinkled at the bottom. Perhaps another upgrade down the road!


----------



## stefuel




----------



## stefuel

OK now post some pictures of how the Jandy is hooked up.

Try to list everything from the Pro2 serial port to the Jandy control.

This is probably something simple that you've hooked up wrong.


Have you tried both types of serial cables (crossed and straight through)???


----------



## A&M 350Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by *stefuel* 
OK now post some pictures of how the Jandy is hooked up.

Try to list everything from the Pro2 serial port to the Jandy control.

This is probably something simple that you've hooked up wrong.


Have you tried both types of serial cables (crossed and straight through)???
Will do tomorrow. Working tonight


----------



## stefuel

What kind of wire is used between the serial adapter and spa control?

The serial connection between the adapter and Pro2 can be 3 wire but the connection between the adapter and spa control should be 4 wire.


If I'm reading the installation manual correctly, there is a terminal block on the serial adapter labled J2 (green, yellow, black and red). The power center and Aqualink should have the same terminal block and you should be able to connect the serial adapter to those terminals on the Aqualink or power center

G to G, Y to Y, B to B and R to R.


If Cat5 was used for this connection, just match what is installed on each end. I don't know why but the manual shows cat5 wiring to be done like this,

terminal 1 orange + white/orange

terminal 2 green

terminal 3 white/green

terminal 4 brown + white/brown


I probably would have just used all four twisted pairs or four conductor wire.

Perhaps the green twisted pair used the way it is works better that way.


Be sure to turn off power to the jandy prior to making any connections.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Here is how it is wired.


1. Jandy Power center to junction box via 4 wire (20 ft run)

2. Junction box to Jandy onetouch control pad (in theater closet) via 4 twisted cat5 pairs. (long run~50ft or so)

3. Jandy onetouch control to serial adapter (the J2 terminal block) via 4 twisted cat5 pairs. (short 2 ft)

4. Serial adapter to pro2 via pre-terminated r232. (1 ft)


The jandy one touch controller is fully functional so the wiring in items 1 and 2 should be correct. I used the same wiring order in 3 and the serial adapter powers on. You can check the data transmission on the pro2 and it show the com is transmitting data (various requests like pool temp) but is not receiving. All the rts lights are on.


Its a mystery!


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/20343315
> 
> 
> Here is how it is wired.
> 
> 
> 1. Jandy Power center to junction box via 4 wire (20 ft run)
> 
> 2. Junction box to Jandy onetouch control pad (in theater closet) via 4 twisted cat5 pairs. (long run~50ft or so)
> 
> 3. Jandy onetouch control to serial adapter (the J2 terminal block) via 4 twisted cat5 pairs. (short 2 ft)
> 
> 4. Serial adapter to pro2 via pre-terminated r232. (1 ft)
> 
> 
> The jandy one touch controller is fully functional so the wiring in items 1 and 2 should be correct. I used the same wiring order in 3 and the serial adapter powers on. You can check the data transmission on the pro2 and it show the com is transmitting data (various requests like pool temp) but is not receiving. All the rts lights are on.
> 
> 
> Its a mystery!




I'm going to have to assume that 1 and 2 are correct. The first thing I would do is double check 3. You might have mixed up the twisted pairs in that. If you have a short piece of cat5a just make up a new one and pop it in.

After that, I would double check the serial cable end to make sure it's OK.

Make sure you don't have any bent or missing DB-9 pins at the Pro2. That leaves only the jumpers on the serial adapter (JP1-JP4). If the wiring is correct and the jumpers set correctly and it still does not work, I'd suspect the serial adapter. I have not taken the time to figure out the jumper configuration yet. Assuming that it was the one that came with the system, the jumpers (should) be correct. Although I'm starting to think that nothing should be assumed with this project.


----------



## stefuel

OK I have done a bit more investigating into the serial adapter. It seems the 9 conductor ribbon cable connected to J1 is not keyed and can be installed upside down. Please make sure the "striped side" is up. The dip swtches for yours should be in the default state which is for one adapter set to baud rate of 9600. From left to right (off off on off off on). I also think you should only have a jumper on JP4. The rest should be open. Report back your findings with that.










Chip


----------



## A&M 350Z

I disconnected everything and powered down. Replaced cat5 from touch controller to serial adapter, triple checked wire order and powered up. Still same thing. Power light on serial adapter is on but the pro2 is not receiving data.


My switches were (off off on on off on), I change the 4th to off and it didn't do anything. My 9 pin ribbon has stripes on both sides! I flipped though and no go.


So either the serial adapter is not functioning or the pro2 is not setup to receive the data. I did notice in the program you said the jandy was on com 3. When i checked the data transmission it is com4 that the pro2 is transmitting requests for pool data from (ie requests for temp, status, etc). Not sure what that means. But I have tried com 3 and 4 to no avail.


----------



## stefuel

OK, hang around for a couple of minutes. Just to make sure the #1 switch should be located with the "ON" above it. 4, 5 and 6 set the baud rate.

"on off on" is 2400 baud. I'll have to go back and double check the settings in your program.


1 set's it for normal operation

2 ignore not used

3 = number of adapters connected on=1 off=2


I'll be right back


----------



## A&M 350Z

Thx


----------



## stefuel

Looks like he's gone Casper on me again. Why do I bother










I still stick by my original settings for the dip switches as the program you sent me calls for port c with 9600 baud. Soooo


1 off

2 who cares

3 on

4 off

5 on

6 on


what about the jumpers???


As far as the ribbon connector goes, the owners manual says striped side up which also puts pin 1 up.


----------



## A&M 350Z

No, I'm here, no casper! The only jumper present is on jp4 spot


----------



## A&M 350Z

wait, is 5 off or on. Your posts were different


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/20346086
> 
> 
> wait, is 5 off or on. Your posts were different



My bad. use the last one.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Ill give it a quick try


----------



## A&M 350Z

ARGGH!! Not working. Very frustrating. I really appreciate your help very much. Ill keep messing around. I see why these systems can get costly to install.


----------



## stefuel

Is one wire of the ribbon cable a different color that the rest and why they call the ribbon "striped"?

If so with the serial adapter in front of you with any writing on it right side up, the stripe goes up/top.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Got it. Yes one wire is stripped, I will make sure it is on top


----------



## stefuel

I'm now curious about the program you sent me. It clearly shows pool controls on port C. It also clearly shows nothing on port D (port D open)


----------



## A&M 350Z

Yeah, I don't understand either. The original owner says it is the most recent program. Unless someone reprogrammed it and he didn't remember or get that version.


----------



## stefuel

I'm also curious about that serial adapter that you have and if it was the one that was original to the working system. Why was it set to 2400 baud???

If all that we've done today does not do it, I would look into sending it back to Jandy for testing and/or replacement cause homeboy, we are there.


I still want a picture of the adapter hooked up with the cover off so I can varify.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Yeah it is original to the system and was working. I will grab some photos


----------



## stefuel

Try it without the serial adapter isolator and you did put it back on port C???


----------



## A&M 350Z

Here are some pics. I tried with and without adapter and port c and d


----------



## stefuel

OK, flip the ribbon cable. Remember I said "with the writing on the board up put the stripe up" You have the stripe down.


Also, is the isolator adapter also a "null modem" adapter??

If not you need to reverse 2 and 3.

Terminal 2 of the Jandy is RXD and terminal 2 of the (non standard serial port)

of the Pro2 is also RXD


You need TXD to RXD and RXD to TXD

Pin 5 is ground on both.


If you stick around long enough, I think we'll get it today


----------



## A&M 350Z

Oh, I flipped it earlier and then didn't flip it back. Not sure about the adapter. How would I know?


----------



## stefuel

If it;s to much trouble to swap the pins on the existing cable, Radio shack has null modem cable and null modem adapters Take your pick.

You just need to swap 2 and 3 on one end.


----------



## A&M 350Z

The db9 plug that came with the adapter is a plastic one that will not allow you to change pins best I can tell. I am guess that is why the jandy serial isolator is needed? I can get a null modem adapter though


----------



## stefuel

Is that plastic db-9 plug part of the ribbon cable? Anyway flip the ribbon connector at the serial adapter and call that part a day.


You can use your digital multimeter to test that isolator. If your meter has a diode test that beeps when you touch the probes together you can test the adapter for "null". The platic part that holds the pins or sockets in place are numbered. You need good eyes to see the numbers. Touch one probe to pin or socket 2 on one side and pin or socket 3 on the other side. If you get a beep, it's a null adapter. Use it. If you are testing female db9 you can use a paper clip to reach inside. Most probes won't fit into the small hole.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Ill give that a try, thanks again for the help and check your pm


----------



## stefuel

I am willing to keep going with this tonight as long as you are. I'm getting pissed and want to see this work just as much as you.


Tomorrow is another thing. I'm on call tomrrow and may be here or not.

You know how that goes


----------



## A&M 350Z

No kidding, it is really irritating to have to go to the theater closet to adjust the pool!! I really appreciate your time. My father-in law just arrived so the wifey is telling me to give it a call!! I will get the null adapter tonight and see how that goes and post back. Thanks again.


----------



## stefuel

I will be here all night. I may be over to remote central for a while looking for some IR codes for a programming project I'm working on but I will be back







.


----------



## stefuel

I want you to shut off the Jandy and un-plug the Pro2.

With the ribbon cable in the correct position, install the null modem adapter and connect to port C. Power up the Jandy first and wait for the one touch to be up and running than plug in the pro2 and wait for it to re-boot.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Tried the null modem adapter. Nothing. Anyway to test if its the pro2 to receiving or the adapter not sending the info?


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/20346993
> 
> 
> Tried the null modem adapter. Nothing. Anyway to test if its the pro2 to receiving or the adapter not sending the info?



Not from here.



Recap


1. We have triple checked and replaced the connection between the Jandy controller and serial adapter, so I think it's safe to say we are good to go right up to the red (J2) connection on the serial adapter.


2. We have confirmed that there is a jumper on (JP4) only.


3. We have set the dip switches per the manual to one adapter set to 9600 baud. Please double check 1-off 2-off 3-on 4-off 5-on 6-on.

As a last resort , just for the heck of it, try switch 1 to the on position. If that does nothing, put it back to off. I'm still curious how that adapter got set to 2400 baud if that's the one that came with the system and why you are showing serial activity on port D when the program you provided shows "pool connections" to port C 9600 baud and port D unused.



I'm 99% sure we have all the wiring correct with port c and d questionable.

Perhaps there has been programming alterations and I don't have the most current.


Last ditch experiment


Shut everything back off re-set dip switches 4, 5 and 6 back to 2400 baud

4-on 5-off 6-on and re-connect serial adapter to port D. Then try that both ways null and straight through.


Question: Did you say in a previous post that if someone presses a button on a tp related to the pool you see the activity on port D? If so, the program I have can't be the latest version.


----------



## A&M 350Z

1. Yes. And I also plug the one touch into the j2 cat5 termination (the serial adapter and one touch have same plug) and it works at that end as well.


2. Yep, JP4 only.


3. Yes, triple checked! I will switch 1 to see.


Good idea. I will try it as was with null.


No, I noticed when you look at the com info on the pro2 panel it is com D that is transmitting pool item requests but is not receiving from the serial adapter.


----------



## stefuel

"Good idea. I will try it as was with null."


Try it both ways, with and without null adapter.


Besides the theater remote, is anything else not working as expected?

When is the programmer supposed to show up?

I really think the version of your program I have is bogus as port D is empty.


----------



## stefuel

In a past thread you asked about the screen material. So today I looked it up again. The screen is a straight off the shelf pt# 84326 which is a 52X92

106 diagonal 1.78: "Matte White" screen. If it isn't matte white, someone re-clothed it.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Thanks.


I tried original settings with null adapter. Nothing. I will retry everything just to be sure on wednesday. Otherwise will just have to wait for programmer.


I checked again with original owner and this is the most recent version he has. I guess no guarantees there were some additional updates along the line somewhere.


I am really happy to have made it this far!


----------



## stefuel

If you have access to the original owner still and are on good terms with him perhaps he could shed some light on what was connected to what.

You might ask him if he took everything out, does he remember what port the Jandy was working on. You might also want to ask him if he has the router that was configured into the system. It may just be sitting on the floor of his new place unused. I can't tell you how many places I go where there are multiple used routers and switches just sitting there because the new home was already connected. That would (or should) resolve the theater remote problem.


I feel like I own this system now. I want to see it working just as much as you. When will the programmer be going there?


----------



## A&M 350Z

I got as much info as I could! He was a hands of kinda guy so he doesn't really know things like com ports, etc. I am very lucky he even had the program. I had a feeling this was the case when he recommended I get a "receiver with equalizer" and a "state of the art 720p projector"


I am going to try to save some money by having the programmer only come once to update software for my new equipment and reinstall what I couldn't get to work. Most of the equipment I have with the exception of the pj. I am actively trying to decide what I want. As soon as I get that I will have him come out and finish up.


----------



## stefuel

Just curious, Do you have the alarm system connected to port E and do you have control over it?

I have my eye on a thread in another forum about Jandy communication and the need to initialize the serial adapter to get communication back.


----------



## stefuel

Boy am I a numbsckull. It's a Pro2 with front LCD display. I'm trying to remember but if you press the "MENU" button and then the left most button (info) I think, the installed program version should be displayed.

That's all we need to figure out if the program I have is the same one that's installed.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Good point.


The file name is 2007Caress.smw. Version is 2.07.22, date 1/12/2008


I do not have the alarm connected to the Pro2. Not sure if I am going to try that route or replace the entire alarm system.


----------



## Neurorad

As an aside, have you considered the brand of replacement alarm?


I'd really like to go with Elk (I really like the company), but it seems that HAI panels are much more widely integrated with Crestron.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/20363256
> 
> 
> Good point.
> 
> 
> The file name is 2007Caress.smw. Version is 2.07.22, date 1/12/2008
> 
> 
> I do not have the alarm connected to the Pro2. Not sure if I am going to try that route or replace the entire alarm system.





The date of last modification in the program you sent me is 5/23/07 so this is a older version. I wonder what else has been changed.

Thought something smelled fishy









You should try the alarm just to see if that works on port E


Back to the Jandy. You did flip the ribbon cable so that the stripe is at the other top







?

Make sure it's set back to 2400 baud and try this.

Hook it up with the isolator and try it on port D. With everything up and running note a TP's feedback. Does it show temp? Probably not. with everything still hooked up, shut off the power to the jandy, wait a minute and power back up. This will initialize the serial adapter in circuit.

Try this 4 times. With and without the isolator then set the isolator aside and try it with and without the null adapter.

Past that we're shooting inthe dark. I wish I could be more help but with the wrong program, no internet connection and 1.500 miles between us, we're screwed.


----------



## A&M 350Z

It isnt clear which is top! The labeling on the outside of the adapter is opposite of the labeling on the internal board.


----------



## Neurorad

Just thinking out loud, but is the Jandy controller programmed to operate? That is, is it currently on a schedule?


Jandy controller programming may interfere with the incoming Rx.


Just trying to help.


----------



## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neurorad* /forum/post/20365320
> 
> 
> As an aside, have you considered the brand of replacement alarm?
> 
> 
> I'd really like to go with Elk (I really like the company), but it seems that HAI panels are much more widely integrated with Crestron.




Agreed. The programmer suggested I go with HAI for ease of installation. The current system is a Honeywell which apparently works but not great.


The Jandy is programmed so it could interfere. But I think the touchpanels should still be receiving some data like temp, etc.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/20365501
> 
> 
> It isnt clear which is top! The labeling on the outside of the adapter is opposite of the labeling on the internal board.



Look at the picture you posted of the inside of the Jandy serial adapter. In that picture, the ribbon cable is wrong. It is 180 off


----------



## A&M 350Z

Which would be the top of the printed internal board but the bottom of the adapter box (board inside is flipped)


----------



## stefuel

Yes the top of the printed circuit board. JP1-JP4 are on the "top". I am going by a diagram in the adapters installation manual. Your picture shows it's wrong. Flip it good.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Yes were pretty much screwed







. I have tried all the suggestions. But as i said before, i am very grateful for the progress which will help a ton.


Regarding the alarm, there is a cat5 wire with ethernet rj-45 plug running to the alarm. I assume there was a wire that was rj45 on one side and db9 on the opposite plug into com e. However, i do not have that wire nor would i know the appropriate db9 configuration.


----------



## stefuel

So how and when is this going to work? Are you goig to do ALL the physical installation work and he will wire and program? Is he going to show up and resolve your modem issue so that he can work on it remotely

I'm dying to find out what stupid thing we missed here with the Jandy


I was just looking at your program again and i found something funny.


There is a program header pop up. It's not signed but in the comment section it says "PAIN IN THE ASS. SHOULD YOU CHOOSE TO ACCEPT

THIS MISSION, GOOD LUCK...."


Ain't that a *****


----------



## A&M 350Z

Hah! While the seller was cordial to me, i have heard he was a major perfectionist/ocd type and a huge choir to work with. I think he did a little installer shopping along the way as well.



Yes, i am going to install everything and provide the model info, input and ir assignments, etc. He can then start on the programming and come out to finish up, ideally only 1-2 days.


----------



## Neurorad

Quote:

Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* 
The Jandy is programmed so it could interfere. But I think the touchpanels should still be receiving some data like temp, etc.
I read that this could be an issue, in the yahoo group - pool guy programs controller, interferes with Crestron programming. Solution was to put a sign on the controller for the pool guy - 'do not program'.


Another thread mentioned that the OneTouch controller and rslink won't work together. Maybe the OneTouch was added to the system after frustrated attempts at Crestron control?

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/C...e&var=1&tidx=1 


Maybe take the OneTouch out of the loop - connect the Jandy serial interface directly to the Jandy controller? The Aqualink RS and OneTouch units appear to be sensitive to lightning/surges, could have taken a sub-lethal hit.


350z, do you have the Aqualink manuals?


I'm certain that Anthony has some Jandy experience (!) and could clear this part up pretty quickly.


Edit - I saw someone mentioned that the AquaLink RS Serial Adapter is a joke; if you open it up, the cables connect straight through.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Very interesting. I will try removing the onetouch from the system. In retrospect, the original owner states he did not use the onetouch. Not sure if that is because it wasn't installed. I know the programming must be done through the onetouch as the crestron has limited functionality, mostly just on/off controls (atleast that is how my is programmed).


Yes, I have the aqualink manuals. According to the manuals the onetouch and adapter should play together.


I don't think the rs serial adapter is a joke based on the internal board and relays. But I have heard the rs isolator is a joke.


Also, I approached Anthony with the suggestion he come out and help with the Jandy and get the network connection running which would allow him to remote program. Waiting to here back.


----------



## stefuel

That's interesting. I only downloaded the manual for the serial adapter and as it shows the one touch and serial controller wired together, I thought it was OK. Back to 2400 baud and port D without the one touch









Both ways please (with and without null adapter). Don't forget to include cycling the power to initialize the serial adapter.


I'm changing my name to Mentalcase


----------



## Neurorad

Oh, yeah, sorry - RS Isolator was the junk. RS Serial Adapter would be essential.










Don't go to to much effort on this one, since Anthony will be coming out anyway.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Will do.


I was think of picking of one of these to be safe:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Crestron-CSP-RS2...item2a0eacf701 


What do you guys think? Or is there a cheaper form of protection?


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/20370052
> 
> 
> Will do.
> 
> 
> I was think of picking of one of these to be safe:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Crestron-CSP-RS2...item2a0eacf701
> 
> 
> What do you guys think? Or is there a cheaper form of protection?



I would discuss any additional hardware with the programmer first.

I wanna know what the heck I've missed here the second he's got it working.

I have to much time invested in this to just let it go.







Of course it would have been a big help to have the latest version of that program in front of me.


----------



## stefuel

Progress???


----------



## A&M 350Z

No. Trying to get the programmer out. He seems very busy! Hopefully end of this week or next.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/20419223
> 
> 
> No. Trying to get the programmer out. He seems very busy! Hopefully end of this week or next.



Anything???


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/20419223
> 
> 
> No. Trying to get the programmer out. He seems very busy! Hopefully end of this week or next.




Well it's been a month and today's my birthday. All I want for my birthday is good news...


----------



## stefuel

Well Sheeeeeeeeiiiit, I had hoped this would have had a happy ending.

It was like reading a good book and finding out that the last chapter had been ripped out.


----------



## tres_1tc

As long as all the equipment is on the same subnet schema and static'd as such, they will work if the new network is on a totally different network subnet schema. it is only if a device is using DHCP and the processor is not, the new network schmema would cause problems.


so if the panel is on 192.168.15.x and the processor is on 192.168.15.x but the router is giving out 192.168.1.x, this will not cause the two devices not to talk.


What this will affect is if your toolbox session is on the 192.168.1.x schema, you will never hit either device. you would then need to static your pc running toolbox to the 192.168.15.x schema to talk to those devices.


tres


----------



## stefuel

What happened to my buddy???

It's been almost three months since his last post.


----------



## danhawk911

Quick programing question can you use any tablet with internet access to control a Crestron system form the web site that they have. thinking of using the hp touch pad as a controller for my system that i am building.


----------



## Techphil

No. You need a tablet or smartphone with a supported app (mobole pro g). ios or android.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Well it seems like its been forever. I totally left this book without a closing chapter! Became very frustrated with the process and life took over! But I have carved out some time got the entire system connected and diagrammed. Theater install is near complete with a new Epson 6010. Just need to update my AVR. I purchased an Autelis Jandy Ipad network pool contoller for a cheap pool control and it works great. But I am ready to get this project properly finished. I OWE that to everyone here who has helped me greatly!!! I will email Anthony soon and hope to get it finished properly! If he can't maybe I will fly down another CAIP. The local store was trying to sell me on just switching to Control 4. I don't think that would be a good idea as I have heard they are not as reliable as Crestron.


----------



## stefuel

I thought I would bump this. Perhaps the two threads should be merged so that all interested parties are on the same page and know the score










I know a couple of issues have been resolved and only a few remain.

I'm glad to see that you are back at it


----------



## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/21866915
> 
> 
> I thought I would bump this. Perhaps the two threads should be merged so that all interested parties are on the same page and know the score
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know a couple of issues have been resolved and only a few remain.
> 
> I'm glad to see that you are back at it



Yes, and this time it will be finished. I kind of forced myself into it by installing all new theater equipment! We have made it a long way from a pile of wires and equipment to where it is today! Currently talking to programmers and deciding who to used. Seems finding a good installer/progammer is key in this industry.


Unfinished items:

1. Theater equipment program

2. Jandy pool control (but like I said above, I purchased a device from autelis which allows remote ipad control of the pool)

3. Get rid of tpmc10 for Ipad integration.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/21867266
> 
> 
> Yes, and this time it will be finished. I kind of forced myself into it by installing all new theater equipment! We have made it a long way from a pile of wires and equipment to where it is today! Currently talking to programmers and deciding who to used. Seems finding a good installer/progammer is key in this industry.
> 
> 
> Unfinished items:
> 
> 1. Theater equipment program
> 
> 2. Jandy pool control (but like I said above, I purchased a device from autelis which allows remote ipad control of the pool)
> 
> 3. Get rid of tpmc10 for Ipad integration.



So what equipment needs to be swapped out in the theater to make what you have now work Projector, AVR, BD player and perhaps cable box???

That's doable without a complete re-write. Now that we know you have ethernet connectivity it could be done remotely.


----------



## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/21868283
> 
> 
> So what equipment needs to be swapped out in the theater to make what you have now work Projector, AVR, BD player and perhaps cable box???
> 
> That's doable without a complete re-write. Now that we know you have ethernet connectivity it could be done remotely.



Thats it. New avr, pj, bd, directv box and maybe throw in an apple tv. Doesn't seem earth shattering. 12 volt trigger from pj is working with screen now. Shades and lighting work great with tpmc. Problem solve the cresnet issue and pool controls and that's it. Do need to replace the tpmc with an ipad too.


Literally I can see light out the end of the tunnel (well at least light in theater room which was formerly completely dark!!)


----------



## stefuel

What kind of wire are you using to supply the cresnet?

Also give me a little bit to bring your program back up and do a power check.


----------



## stefuel

OK, as you no longer have the external power supply that was configured into the system you are now over budget by 4 watts Your usage is 54 watts and the pro only provides 50 watts. That along with sub par wire could be your problem.


----------



## A&M 350Z

How did you get to 54? I am using cat5 twisted pairs. Thats what was originally used, at least to the caen


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/21868722
> 
> 
> How did you get to 54? I am using cat5 twisted pairs. Thats what was originally used, at least to the caen



When I open your project in Simpl Windows (C's software) and click on the project tab then go down and click on "display power consumption" it lists,


Total power consumed 54.0 W

Power consumed by rack 27.0 W

Total power supplied 375.0 W


You no longer have the external power supply in the chain so you are relying on the pro's internal power supply for everything. It is my understanding that the pro only provides 50.0 W. Now that supply is used and may be even less then that now. At the very least I would grab a 75 watt supply and put it in the chain where it makes the most sense. Those are plug-and-play. They don't have to be configured into the system.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Hmm, i can try adding a power supply. But my numbers say, 9 (3 lc1000) + 10 (pad8a) + 8 (xm tuner) = 27. Guess the dimmer modules use some? So i guess the original owner is holding the power supply hostage. He swears he doesnt have it as that was part of the contract on the house.


----------



## A&M 350Z

I believe you are correct regarding the power. When I add back the xm tuner but take out the touchpanels, the lighting works. Add touchpanels, lighting modules lose connection. Need to find a power supply. Stupid things are pricey. 475-900 bucks for the c2n-spws300 on fleabay.


Turns out Directv hasn't changed remotes or IR codes since '07. Hooked up the PRO2 to an emitter and now we have control over the satellite box from the tpmc10!!! So all we are missing is pj, avr and bluray.


----------



## stefuel

I would just get a 75 watt supply. It does not need to be configured. It has no address. It has two connections, cresnet in and cresnet out. It simply adds 75 watts to the chain after it.


----------



## weddellkw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/21869737
> 
> 
> I believe you are correct regarding the power. When I add back the xm tuner but take out the touchpanels, the lighting works. Add touchpanels, lighting modules lose connection. Need to find a power supply. Stupid things are pricey. 475-900 bucks for the c2n-spws300 on fleabay.
> 
> 
> Turns out Directv hasn't changed remotes or IR codes since '07. Hooked up the PRO2 to an emitter and now we have control over the satellite box from the tpmc10!!! So all we are missing is pj, avr and bluray.



I think they did change IR codes with the newest generation of box (H24/HR24 I think). Mostly a change in the D-Pad I believe, but Crestron has provided a functioning IR set for the new devices. Good to know in case you upgrade a box.


----------



## GoGo Delicious




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/21868722
> 
> 
> . . . . I am using cat5 twisted pairs. Thats what was originally used, at least to the caen



You should really be running Cresnet to the CAEN.


----------



## A&M 350Z

You mean the 4wire cresnet cable?


----------



## A&M 350Z




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would just get a 75 watt supply. It does not need to be configured. It has no address. It has two connections, cresnet in and cresnet out. It simply adds 75 watts to the chain after it.



You mean the cnpws-75? I dont understand how it works. Its not labeled in or out. Wouldnt you be putting power to power with it? Seems like it is made for control systems without any power,


----------



## stefuel

No, you are not putting power to power. I don't have one in front of me but as I remember one port is labled input. You plug the powered cresnet into it. It drops the 24+ off from the pro and continues on. It only passes Y Z and G.

So in your case, I would let the pro power the devices in the rack and the external supply take care of everything outside the rack.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Here is the one I was looking at:

http://www.crestron.com/resources/pr...model=cnpws-75 


Not labeled input or output


----------



## stefuel

That is the one you want. The cresnet that leaves the rack plugs into the left port. That is where the control systems 24+ stops. Only the other three are passed. From there the power supplies 24+ takes over and out the right hand port. Look at the manual available from the link you provided. I know it looks confusing but it works. Have I steered ya wrong yet


----------



## CJO




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/21873260
> 
> 
> No, you are not putting power to power. I don't have one in front of me but as I remember one port is labled input.



I don't think that's right. I'm fairly certain that there are no inputs in the power supply. Both ports are outputs wired in parallel.


CJ


----------



## stefuel

The manual shows the left port 24 as not connected. That either means you omit it at the plug or it's not connected internally. I'm not 100% sure. I don't use them.

Either way, he's only short a couple of watts and that will make up the difference with plenty of head room.


----------



## fuzzy bee

When you connect Cresnet to a power supply, never connect the 24 wire to anything that already has a power supply.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Hmm, so the cresnet plug on the left you leave out the 24v?


----------



## stefuel

Look at the diagram in the manual. Follow the connection of 24 from the control processor, daisy-chained through a couple of cresnet devices and into the 75 watt supply. Make note of where it says "no connection"


----------



## A&M 350Z

So looks like i can leave everything as is but put the power supply between the cnt-block and caen-block with the 24v disconnected on the cnt-block side.


----------



## stefuel

Yes... Just get one and deal with it. Nothing else should be done until the cresnet power issue is resolved.


Also just for $hits and giggles, go to the front panel of the pro2. You should be able to read the name of the program that's currently running. I'm curious if it is the same as the one you sent me.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Oh, I already ordered the power supply. Should be here Tuesday.


The file name is the same, caress 2007. But the compiled date on the pro2 is 1/12/2008 while file info shows a date of 5/23/2007. Rev on the pro2 is 2.07.22. The owner says it is the most updated program. Who knows.


Epson lists "ESP/VP Level 21 Command Codes" on their website. Not sure what that is. http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/s...4&infoType=Doc 


I think I read somewhere Onkyo will email the codes. I can ask them tomorrow. Previously the PJ was controlled IR, simple on/off. AVR was rs232. The apple tv is the new one.


----------



## stefuel

When your new power supply shows up do me a favor just to satisfy my curiosity. As I recall you have a multimeter. I want you to bench test the supply. Power up the supply. Set your mm to dc volts and check 24 and ground on both plugs.

I could sware I read someplace that the 24 from the processor is not passed internally. If you do have 24 on both then I guess I was wrong. However it won't hurt to omit the 24 from the connector on the processor side of the supply.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Argh! Bad power supply, seller cancelled order. This time i just ponied up for a new one. Looks like it will be thursday but i will test asap.


----------



## stefuel

I have another test for you if you are up to it. Now that the theater remote is working, try hooking up the jandy again and see if you can control it from the theater remote.


----------



## stefuel

"The file name is the same, caress 2007. But the compiled date on the pro2 is 1/12/2008 while file info shows a date of 5/23/2007. Rev on the pro2 is 2.07.22. The owner says it is the most updated program. Who knows."


You are running a modified version of the original program. The one you sent me is the original (not what you are running) which could be why we have had trouble with some items like the jandy. I've been telling you to try stuff based on what I have in front of me.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Power supply didn't help. FYI, it is 24v out on both ports. So I left the 24v disconnected from the cnt-block to the power supply. Both with and without the power supply, I lose cresnet connection when the lc1000's and the t2n-txm are connected. Must be a cresent communication issue. Looks like I will be selling a very slightly used power supply. Anyone interested? Likely will need Crestron's toolbox to problem solve.


----------



## stefuel

You are over budget on the power without the supply. I would keep it in the chain. You stand the chance of nuking the supply in the pro2 eventually keeping it overtaxed as it is.


Go back and double check every connection in the cresnet. You must have a bad connection or something. Especially if you are using twisted pairs. Check them very closely. Check every wire in every twisted pair, especially in the area where you are unplugging things to make it work. You will find it. I have faith.

Is all of the cresnet accessable? I'd like to see you ditch the cat5 or whatever it is and replace it with the real thing.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Seems odd that if I disconnect any one cresnet device, pad8a, xm tuner or lc1000's, I get control of the lighting. But add any that one back in and lighting is out. All the wiring is accessible, accept from the rack to the lighting but that should be easy to pull. I will order some of the cresnet wire. I probably will just keep the power supply, future proofs it too in case I add down the road.


----------



## stefuel

OK, explain to me in detail the cresnet connections from start to finish. I would also like you to look at the LED's on the cntblock. I assume you have a short cresnet wire from the pro2 to the cntblock correct? Then each device is plugged into one of the ports on the cntblock.


If you are willing to put in the time, I will make it my mission to resolve this tonight.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Sure. The CNT-BLOCK has all 3 lights on and appear bright though the 3rd light is flickering. Not sure if the flickering is supposed to be dimmer. Connection is as follows.


PRO2-->CNT BLOCK Port 1

T2N-TXM-->CNT BLOCK Port 2

3 LC1000's---> CNT BLOCK Port 3

CNPWS-75 power supply--->CNT BLOCK port 4. 24v disconnected

PAD8a-->CNT BlOCK port 5


CNPWS-75--->CAEN-BLOCK--->Dimmer modules


The local frys has a 4 wire stranded 22 gauge. Wonder if I should try that as opposed to the expensive cresnet wire.


----------



## stefuel

That led should not be flickering. Unplug everything from the block but the connection from the processor. Is it still flickering? You should have a bright power, one bright red and one dim red.


----------



## A&M 350Z

with everything disconnected but power from pro2, it still flickers but is slightly dimmer. I double checked connections from pro2 and all looks good.


----------



## stefuel

Which one is flickering Y or Z???


----------



## A&M 350Z

Z


----------



## stefuel

What kind of wire are you using between the pro2 and the cntblock?

I think you have a bad connection or bad/broken wire on the Z.

Can you make a new cable up for that. According to the troubleshooting chart I have here your power and Y are OK. You say the Z is bright and or flickering. That tells me the problem is the Z wire. That can be the wire, connector (at either end) the block it's self or..........the Pro2

Make sure you are not clamping down on the wires insulation within the connector.

Try different connectors on the cable. Prehaps one of them is not making good connection on the Z pin at either end. Try a different port on the cntblock from the processor. Something is causing the flickering.


----------



## A&M 350Z

It flickers but is dimmer slightly. I will try a new wire. I am using cat5


----------



## stefuel

Ya know, if this was going on when you were attempting to get the jandy working....


----------



## A&M 350Z

you think something zapped? Or thats why jandy is down. Only thing is, the lc1000s are working and controlling the the pad8a and xm tuner over cresnet through the cntblock.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Jandy should not have anything to do with it since its connection is serial. Changed wire from pro2 to cnt-block. Samething. All lights on, Z light slight dimmer and flickering. I am not so sure the flickering isnt just a poorly dimming light.


----------



## stefuel

After making a new wire, try plugging the processor into other ports on the cntblock and see if the flicker changes.


----------



## A&M 350Z

same on all 8 ports.


So when I add each device back, the net light stays on at the dimmers until the last device is connected. No matter what the last device is, it shuts off.


----------



## stefuel

OK I'm starting to think you have a weak Z signal coming out of the pro2.

But because I'm such a meathead and cheap to boot, I would try one more thing. Before I condemed the pro I would eliminate the cntblock and daisy chain the whole mess. I am comfortable doing that for my self but I don't know if you are up for it. Do you understand "daisy chain"? If so let's do that but leave out the 75 watt supply for now. For now all we are interested in is seeing that net led stay on with everything connected.


Pro2>first device>second device>third device and so on. If the net led stays on get a new cntblock off fleabay. If it doesn't stay on then I suspect you have bigger decisions to make.


Don't try any of this unless you are comfortable with what you are doing.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Yeah, I follow you. Basically, each unit connected in series.


----------



## stefuel

Just go slow and be carefull and don't F up.










I'll be back


----------



## A&M 350Z

Here is what I realized.


1. It is a pain in the *ss to daisy chain these devices with cat5e twisted pair. Too many little wires. Don't want to screw up. I think I will pickup some 22 ga 4 wire.


2. I will need to remove one the lc1000s from the wall and bring to the rack. Of course, then we are introducing a variable. 1 lc1000 vs 3.


I will try tomorrow. So your premise is the pro2 could have a weak z out and may need fixed? If this doesnt work maybe the programmer can run the network analyzer in toolbox.


----------



## stefuel

Does the cresnet for each LC1000 come back to the rack or one wire out to feed all three? What kind of wire is going to the tp's. If it's just one wire out to the tp's just daisy chain the single wire.

Damn, I wish you were local. I know I could figure it out if I could just put my hands on it. I'm pissed enough now that I would just come over and look at it.


----------



## stefuel

The more I ponder this the more I think the problem is right in front of you.

IF you have it like this, Pro2 > short cresnet interconnect > cntblock with nothing else plugged into the block and you have a bright Z (or bright Z with a flicker) led on the cntblock, then the problem is one of the three. If you have already tried a new interconnect (with new plugs on each end) then you've narrowed it down to the pro2 or block.


If I read the instructions correctly for troubleshooting using the LED's on the cntblock, a bright (Z) led indicated a loss of Z connection. Bright with a flicker probably means a loose or bad connection on the Z someplace.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Okay, picked up some "bell wire" which is solid 18 g 5 conductor so we can eliminate the cat5 interconnects and i can more easily daisy chain. Could there be some conflict with the cresnet addresses? I also need to check voltage on the z. I heard somewhere it should be around 3-5. Again, the z light is dimmer not bright


----------



## stefuel

Start with a new interconnect between the pro and block to see if the flickering Z led goes away. If the Z is solid dim at that point, plug everything back in and try again. If you are still getting flicker, try the daisy chain route next. I would get rid of as much Cat5 as you can from the cresnet. That said, I'm not sure how well the wire you bought will work for data.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Why wouldnt it work for data? cresnet wire is just 2 solid strands of 22 g and 2 solid strands of 18 g. The wire is even labeled "bell or other low voltage control"


----------



## stefuel

I suspect it has to do with the insulation of the individual strands.

Just try it.


I'm going to the doctors now. For some reason my blood pressure is up









I'll be back about 5:30.


----------



## CJO

The difference is that CAT5 and the Crestnet data cables are twisted, which helps with interference. The Crestnet data cables are also shielded. That's why Crestron won't give tech support to installs that aren't done with Crestnet, many of the issues are finally traced to the wiring. Also, Crestnet is stranded, not solid, which makes it a lot easier to work with and much less prone to breaking.


CJ


----------



## A&M 350Z

Okay, i will just order the cresnet wire so we are certain. Anyone know what the volts are on Z. I am getting 1. 3 volts on Y and 24 on the 24.


----------



## stefuel

Just out of curiosity I checked the voltages on mine that is working perfectly

I'm showing 3.5 on Y and 1.5 on Z. Not even sure what that means.


----------



## A&M 350Z

So, seems like the Z output is good. My Z is like 1-1.3. I will check it at various locations past the cnt-block and see if we are losing signal. Theater seats arrived today, rooms getting closed to done.


----------



## stefuel

When network analyzer tests the cresnet it is not just a matter of voltage.

It is both voltage and time. According to the help files in toolbox, the voltages can be anywhere from -5 to +10 volts and does so with a 6.55ms sample so I don't think just looking for voltage on pins has any value.


----------



## stefuel

Just a thought.

With everything connected and the lighting not working, have you ever looked at the front panel of the pro2 and looked at the status LEDs next to the computer port on the left hand side? You should have only "PWR" and

"NET" illuminated. The third status LED "MSG" should be off.

"MSG" is the same as "ERR" in older units and has the same funtionality and you know what ERR means


----------



## A&M 350Z

No msgs or err listed


----------



## stefuel

OK got right in this morning


08 the missing power supply obiously FAILED


1A, 1B and 1C LC1000's Error "High Z does not exceed low Y on recieve."

I also looked at this in Viewport and these don't even show up as being connected. FAILED


44 Pad8 OK


55 TXM FAILED Error "First transistion on Y and Z do not match"


65 Dim8 FAILED Error "No response on Y"


66 Dim4 OK


Now I just have to figure out what this all means


----------



## stefuel

It's either a pile of defective devices or mis-wired twisted pairs.


First pull any one LC1000 and look at the cresnet connection on it's end.

If they are on cat5 they could be wired one of two ways. It might be using one full twisted pair for each connection (not recommended) or

one twisted pair for 24, one twisted pair for G and one twisted pair for Y and Z. The 4th twisted pair is not used.


This has to be a wiring problem.

Make up a new cresnet cable to connect the TXM. Use that solid core wire you bought as a experiment. Do the same thing in your lighting cabinet for the DIM8. The DIM4 is OK so the cresnet is good to the cabinet. When you have done that I will test again.


Chip


----------



## A&M 350Z

1. The LC1000's are connected with 4 twisted pair to each, ie not the "recommended way" This is also how I wired it at the rack. The LC1000's were already wired when we moved in so that is how it was previously functioning. Not surprised they did not show up as being connected they were not. I left them out so I could control lighting.


2. I dont see how DIM8 failed but not DIM4. They are connected together via the interconnect cable in series on the same cresnet cable to the CAEN-BLOCK. Perhaps the DIM8 is bad or the lighting is wired incorrectly. There has been a few strange issues with lighting control.


I will try to run a new cresnet to the xm module. It might be tomorrow night or Wednesday as the house is PACKED with family for my sons 2nd birthday. They think the theater is amazing though I see lots of work!! Crestron, calibration, need some subs, etc! I guess thats why it is our hobby.


----------



## stefuel

I think one of those two nights you should call me on the phone while I am linked up with your system. We can unplug everything and while I'm monitoring it with network analyzer, plug it one device at a time. That way we can see it when errors appear on the cresnet (in real time). That won't take much time and is much better then playing internet tag.

When you are done with the theater for the night, disconnect the cresnet for the lighting all the way back to the rack and plug in the LC1000's. I will re-scan before I go to bed or in the AM with my coffee.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Okay, lighting disconnected at cnt-block. Everything else on and working.


----------



## stefuel

OK now unplug everything else and only plug in the lighting.


----------



## A&M 350Z

All disconnected except lighting


----------



## stefuel

Don't go away. We're almost done


----------



## stefuel

OK here's the deal. With the lighting disconnected all other errors on the cresnet go away. With only the lighting connected I show a good dim4 and a bad dim8. I'm not convinced that the 8 is bad yet. so do this first. Disconnect the short ribbon jumper between the 4 and 8. I want to test the 8 all by it's self. Do it now.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Done


----------



## stefuel

OK does the ribbon connector from the caen-block reach the dim4?? If so move it from the 8 to the 4.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Done, barely reaches


----------



## stefuel

OK last test. Put everything on the lighting end back the way it's supposed to be.

You said you bought some wire that you thought you might use. Is there enough to make it from the cnt-block to the caen-block just for a test.

I just want to make sure there isn't enough signal or voltage loss in the old cable to cause it. If so do it now.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Done with new wire


----------



## stefuel

OK done deal. I don't think I'd be going to far out on a limb by telling you to get another Dim8. The only thing left to do is try is to put it all back together with all cresnet devices attached. pull the jumper between the dins again and plug the long ribbon cable back into the din4. I'll bet you will have a clean cresnet and control over everything including the 4 circuits attached to the din4. I think I saw some dealer display models on fleabay for short money. Grab one and hook it up. I can set the cresnet address from here.

While you are looking into that, there is a couple of dealers selling real cresnet cable. They sell it by ten foot units. So if you figure you need 100 feet you just order ten units.


You want to try and hook up the alarm system now


----------



## A&M 350Z

Could it be the electrical wiring to the dim8 is incorrect? I noticed some of the zones have been disconnected. Or would that only cause though zones to not work.


----------



## stefuel

No, I'm pretty sure you could leave all those line out's empty and it won't effect the cresnet signal. We are looking at the control side logic/low voltage that has nothing to do with the high voltage.


Final test How long does it take a driven person to come up with a new one










I have my own little crisis tonight. I've been having issues with with the AVR in my main theater. It's a Yamaha what has dual zone output. The second zone was for the outside theater. That zone crapped out last year. Tonight the L and R mains dropped out. I knew this was coming so I've been scoping out a used Denon 3808. I've already modified my program to use it. Just haven't found one for the right price yet.


----------



## A&M 350Z

You sir are correct. With the dim8 bypassed, all cresnet devices function properly. Sounds like it is the bad apple.


How easy are these to change? I am no electrician. Trying to figure the logic in how they are wired. Seems like mine is all screwed up. Shouldnt one zones hot and neutral be on the same respective rail slot 1-4 or 1-8? Mine are not. Also, just notice one of the rails (not the power in) is hot on dim8 even though it is all off.


Regarding, the avr. If you need an onkyo 705 i know someone who has one


----------



## stefuel

Just get one and I'll walk you through swapping it out. Something about a piece of cake comes to mind







Just remember, that black wire attached to "LINE IN" is hot all the time. That is the supply. Find a replacement.

Figure out which breaker cuts the power to it. I'll help you do it.


I'm going to run a scan one more time to be sure all errors are gone. I'll be back...


----------



## stefuel

Comes back clean as a babies bottom


----------



## A&M 350Z

Great. It is not so easy to find a clx-1dim8 online. None on fleabay. Might have to call around. There is a used one in GA I inquired about.


----------



## stefuel

Well keep looking. When you get a chance, grab your camera and take a close up of the wiring block to the left of the dim8. I'm mostly interested in the red section (line out). Why is the area where the red wire is connected discolored?


----------



## stefuel

"Regarding, the avr. If you need an onkyo 705 i know someone who has one"


I have no idea what this is or if it will do what I want. What is the full model# and I'll look it up. I know the Denon 3808 fits the bill exactly.


----------



## A&M 350Z

 http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=...s=Receiver&p=i 


Nothing high end but may be a good stop gap or second zone avr.


----------



## A&M 350Z

Good pick up. I noticed that tonight as well. Here is another pic. Also,noticed some of the neutrals go up the panel and corresponding black wire does not. Seems wrong. For instance, load 1 after hot in. The red wire is hot with all loads off so i guess it is shorted. It is not hot when disconnected


----------



## stefuel

I looked at your program and it shows you are only using 6 of the 8 outputs from the dim8. You say that red wire is hot all the time until removed from the connection block correct. That means one of these six items is on all the time and can't be shut off.


1. Scounces

2. Behind_scr_dn (not sure what that is)

3. Art

4. Steps

5. Ceiling_dn1 (not sure what dn1 means)

6. Ropes


They are all listed as incandescent.

See what's running of those six that shouldn't be then yank that red wire and see if it goes off.


----------



## stefuel

If you can't find any lighting running that shouldn't be, pull the red wire and see if you can make the screen come down.


----------



## stefuel

I am a little worried about that red wire. It's overheated the connection there. If you have a clamp on amp meter, I would love to know how many amps it's trying to pass.


----------



## Dahwoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stefuel* /forum/post/21921059
> 
> 
> I looked at your program and it shows you are only using 6 of the 8 outputs from the dim8. You say that red wire is hot all the time until removed from the connection block correct. That means one of these six items is on all the time and can't be shut off.
> 
> 
> 1. Scounces
> 
> 2. Behind_scr_dn (not sure what that is)
> 
> 3. Art
> 
> 4. Steps
> 
> 5. Ceiling_dn1 (not sure what dn1 means)
> 
> 6. Ropes
> 
> 
> They are all listed as incandescent.
> 
> See what's running of those six that shouldn't be then yank that red wire and see if it goes off.




Haven't been following the thread but I'm pretty sure that "dn" is short for "Down light" or "ceiling light" in other words


----------



## A&M 350Z

I have no clue what the red wire supplies. I disconnected it and it doesnt seem to power anything I know of. It shows 0.15 amps with my clamp on meter (which I confirmed was working on other loads!). Any clues on what type of load would have 4 wires (Hot red, Hot black, Neutral and grd)?


The rope lighting does not respond appropriately. Might be a function of bad dim8. It intermittently comes on when I cycle the main overhead lights which are on the dim4 though they do not come on at all with the dim8 disconnected.


The screen down lights do not work at all. There is a disconnected load wire in the box, perhaps it feeds these lights. There are also 3 additional disconnected hot feeds to the lighting panel, possibly for future additions?


Again, it seems like the whole thing is a wired wrong. Shouldnt the neutral and hot feeds it on the appropriate rails? Understand what I am trying to explain? The 4th hot on dim8 is on a different load than the 4th neutral.


Whats that about trying to find a dim8? Ordered, and for a steal! 1000 bucks from the local dealer, 680 from fleabay dealer, 175 from online add. We will see it works but the guy guarantees it.


----------



## stefuel

I'm 99.9% sure all the "N's" are common. That's why you don't see them coming out of the Dim8 and why they don't have to match on the rail. You will have to put the red wires from the replacement in the same place they are now. I took a very quick peak at your program this AM and noticed some logic that suggests there is a motion sensor in the theater someplace. The logic inhibits sensor lights "IF" the projector is on. That red wire puzzles me.

Is there any lighted ceiling fans in the theater?


----------



## A&M 350Z

There are 2 ceiling fans in the theater but they have there own switches. The fans work without the red wire connected. Perhaps there is a light box on the fans not connected?


There are motion sensors and smoke in the theater.


Only other powered loads are bathroom lights, wall and floor receptacles and motorized drapes


----------



## stefuel

I have tomorrow off. I will try to follow the lighting part of the program and try to figure it out. The only way right now to quicly see what's what is to get it going again. Clip the black wire of your multimeter to N and starting with the top load out probe the clamp screw for that wire with the meter set to AC volts. Try each lighting button on the TP. When you find the one that makes a difference, make a note of it on a piece of paper.


You woulsd have to go through a dealer but I wonder how much Crestron would charge to fix it.


----------



## stefuel

Have you tried to make the screen come down with that wire dis-connected?


----------



## stefuel

That wire with the red, black, white and ground, what terminal on which Dim is the black connected???


----------



## A&M 350Z

Yeah, screen still works. Let me check the black wire.


----------



## A&M 350Z

The corresponding black wire is to the 5th rail of dim8. It is the 6th thats is always hot, blackened and had the red wire. When i cycle dim8 with setup button, here is how it is wired.


1 sconce

2 none

3 art

4 steps

5 rope

6 none

7 none

8 none


The screen lighting does not cycle and is either disconnected or has dead bulbs


----------



## stefuel

Well one of two things made that discoloration at the connection with the red wire.


1. A bad connection under that screw

2. The load was to great for the connection to carry.


The fact that it won't shut off leads me to think there is a stuck relay or something internally. I'm just double checking here but did you day that even with the cresnet disconnected there is still power going ot through that red line? I'm pretty good at locating defective components on circuit boards.

If you want to, box it up and send it to me with a return label and I'll take a quick look at it.


----------



## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/21924359
> 
> 
> The corresponding black wire is to the 5th rail of dim8. It is the 6th thats is always hot, blackened and had the red wire. When i cycle dim8 with setup button, here is how it is wired.
> 
> 
> 1 sconce
> 
> 2 none
> 
> 3 art
> 
> 4 steps
> 
> 5 rope
> 
> 6 none
> 
> 7 none
> 
> 8 none
> 
> 
> The screen lighting does not cycle and is either disconnected or has dead bulbs



According to the program this is how the Dim8 should be connected


1. Scounces

2. Behind Screen

3. Art

4. Steps

5. Ceiling

6. Ropes

7. not used

8. not used


Now tell me what the Dim4 actually does and I'll tell you what the program says.....This freaks me out when I try to follow it but #4 on the Dim4 has a signal attached to it called "hundred". When I trace that it sets the Denon's volume to 100% and tells the speakers in the house to come on. (perhaps a feature of the alarm system???) I have not gotten that far into it yet.


----------



## stefuel

First, when you print a "detail view of" a cover page prints and under comments the original programmer notes:


"PAIN IN THE A$$. SHOULD YOU CHOOSE TO ACCEPT THIS MISSION, GOOD LUCK...." Do ya think










That said, the touch panel lighting screen shows 8 zones of lighting. The program shows 9.


According to what I have here, on your touch panel I show the following


1. Front lights Those should be the front ceiling lights. and the power from them should come from the Dim4, second terminal from the top. (not counting the line input which is the wire at the very top).


2. Back lights Those should be the back ceiling lights. This might be a bit confusing. The load may have been split between the two modules as I show power to them as coming from both the top terminal on the dim4 and the 5th

terminal from the top on the dim8.


3. Deck lights Those should be the screen floods. They get their power from the dim4 on the third terminal from the top.


4. Screen lights These show as behind screen lights. They get their power from the dim8 on the second terminal from the top.


5. Ropes You know what they are. They get their power from the dim8 on the terminal that is 6th from the top.


6. Art You know these also. They get their power from the dim8 on the terminal that is third from the top.


7. Scounces Again you know. They get their power from the dim8 on the top terminal.


8. Steps Shouldn't be hard to figure out where they are. They get their power from the dim8 on the fourth terminal from the top.


I still have not gotten to the fourth terminal on the dim4. The signal associated with that "hundred" also is associated with the pad8 setting volume to 100% on all 8 zones (I think). Also a 9th zone of lighting which seems to be MIA called "downs". It's in the program but not on the TP.


Does any of this make any sense when you are testing the lights from the TP?


----------



## stefuel

I'm assuming after all this that you don't even have "ropes" yet as the theater was empty in the picture you posted. You also said somewhere that there was wall and floor outlets. I'll go out on a limb and say that the floor outlets are for the ropes to plug into. Plug a lamp into the floor outlets and see if they are on when the red wire is attached and off when not attached.


I'm starting to feel like Sherlock Holmes, detective from afar


----------



## A&M 350Z

The rope lighting is uplighting around the room from the tray. The receptecles are hot with the red wire disconnected. The room is no longer empty. See post titled united leather in the theater acces subforum


----------



## stefuel

So do the labels for the buttons on the TP match the areas of the lights they are supposed to control???


----------



## A&M 350Z

For dim4, yes for all loads. For dim8, sconces-yes, steps-yes, screen down lighting- no but doesnt come on manually either, ropes-no but does work manually.


----------



## stefuel

Did you say that even with the cresnet connected that the output for the red wire is still hot? Any chance I can convince you to send me that dim8 for quick inspection?


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## A&M 350Z

No, with red disconnected the wire is not hot. The 6th rail is hot all the time , cresnet connected or not. Sure, im on call all weekend so might not get to mail it right away. Replacement should be here monday anyways. I am going to connect the extra non hot wire in the panel tonight to see if it feeds the screen lights.


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## stefuel

I'm on call this Sat. Was on call past Sun. Next weekend I have Fri, Sat, Sun and Mon off.







Check e-mail. I'll give you my address.


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## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/21927425
> 
> 
> No, with red disconnected the wire is not hot. The 6th rail is hot all the time , cresnet connected or not. Sure, im on call all weekend so might not get to mail it right away. Replacement should be here monday anyways. I am going to connect the extra non hot wire in the panel tonight to see if it feeds the screen lights.



As you've probably figured, I am the curious type which got me involved in this project in the first place. When I condemn something I usually like to see it up close and personal so I feel better about telling someone to spend money. Oh yes, you will be adding that 75 watt power supply to the system when we are done. You really do need it. Check about any of the 6K plus posts I have here on AVS. You rarely see me tell anyone they have to buy this or that.


I still haven't figured out if the 705 will do what I want but I probably should take you up on the offer. The 3808 is "Network" able which is what I was looking for.


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## stefuel

Are you ready to plug the serial cable from the alarm system into port E on the pro2


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## A&M 350Z

I dont believe Onkyo 705 is "networkable" to any extent. You could use it as zone 2 and have rs232 control.


I connected the "extra" load wire in the panel and it is in fact the screen down lights which are now working and appropriately associated on the touch panel. The rope lights then are the only load that does not respond from the touch panel. When the dim8 is connected there are some glitches. Some of the responses are slow and sometimes missed altogether. That completely goes away when just the dim4 is connected. Maybe a function of the cresnet issues of the dim8. Time will tell.


I am told the Honeywell Vista does not play well with Crestron and may be very difficult to program. I think I need to switch to Elk or HAI. Is your alarm integrated?


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## stefuel

OK, with the red wire removed does everything else still work??? If so the red (probably) supplies the ropes. The ropes might be low voltage and the red is powering it's supply. Follow the ropes and look for a serviceable device on either end. Is the theater on a slab or over a basement? If over a basement it might be down there. Look for a access cover on the wall someplace that you've always wondered why it was there. It is against code to make connections unserviceable. I think someplace you will find a transformer type device that supplies power to the ropes. Can you see a name or anything on the ropes? Post a picture of the style and I'll research it. Curiosity kicking in again. It ain't easy diagnosing problems that you can't see but I think we are doing well.

Find the ends of the ropes and follow the wiring that feeds the ropes. I think you will find a shorted transformer that caused the overheated connection on the dim8 and caused it to fail.


I'm on call tomorrow but if I'm not actually working, I'll be right here. Find me the ropes info and that will give me something to do to pass the time. Oh ya, don't have a alarm. Don't need one , bark bark.


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## A&M 350Z

The ropes work with the red wire disconnected. The rope lighting only works with the manual setup button on the dim8, not the touchpanel. I am guessing since all the other loads are appropriately programmed/mapped in the existing program it is a cresnet issue with the dim8. I will still look for the transformer just for curiosity. I also will open one of the fans and see if the read wire runs there.


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## weddellkw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/21930335
> 
> 
> The ropes work with the red wire disconnected. The rope lighting only works with the manual setup button on the dim8, not the touchpanel. I am guessing since all the other loads are appropriately programmed/mapped in the existing program it is a cresnet issue with the dim8. I will still look for the transformer just for curiosity. I also will open one of the fans and see if the read wire runs there.




Does the LED corresponding to that output turn on when you activate from the TP?

If so meter the output of the dim8 when you turn it on with the setup button and compare with the output when turned on from the TP. Some ropes won't dim, and if the program is telling the dim8 to put out less than 100% that may be why its not working.


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## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/21930335
> 
> 
> The ropes work with the red wire disconnected. The rope lighting only works with the manual setup button on the dim8, not the touchpanel. I am guessing since all the other loads are appropriately programmed/mapped in the existing program it is a cresnet issue with the dim8. I will still look for the transformer just for curiosity. I also will open one of the fans and see if the read wire runs there.



First rope lights come in at least three flavors 12 volts, 24 volts and 120 volts. I have no idea what you have. Now, the sixth output (the one with the red wire) attached to it (according to the program) is supposed to be ropes. When you go into manual, you should be able to follow the LED's on the right side of the dim8. Which LED is on when the rope lights come on?

Also, besides the output that the red wire is on being live all the time, is the associated LED for #6 also on??


Grab some paper and somthing to write with. Go into manual again on both the 4 and 8 Make a note as to what actually comes on with what LED.

Something doesn't make sense here. #6 is supposed to be the ropes


Or you can take the TP over to the lighting panel and press the ropes button and look for activity on the LEDs on the right side of both dims.


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## A&M 350Z

Okay, got my homework assignment







. Likely will be tomorrow night though. Work needs to stop getting in the way of fun!


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## stefuel

Tomorrow night?

Damn, looks like it's going to be a long day tomorrow with nothing to help pass the time.......oh, wait a minute. Where's that paint brush.









Naaa, I'd rater pester you with new things to try.










I wish I had the funky Dim8 here. I would rip it apart and try to figure out what's wrong with it. That would kill some time.


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## A&M 350Z

Okay, some more info with the limited time i had. The touchpanel rope button turns on the 6th spot on dim8, that is the red wire slot that remember is always hot. The ropes are actually plugged into the 5th slot when i cycle manually on the dim8. Hmm, something not right in h-town!


And the system definitely misbehaves with the dim8 connected!


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## stefuel

Remember I told you that in programming I saw the "back lights" signal on both dims. When you turn on the back lights, terminal 1 on the dim4 AND terminal 5 on the dim8 should be hot. If what you are telling me is correct, the ropes should come on along with the back ceiling lights.

Probably if you follow the black wire from #1 on the dim4, you will find it tied to another black wire with a wire nut. That other wire used to go to #5 on the dim8. I'm not sure why you would want the ropes to come on with the back ceiling light but that's what I'm seeing from here. I would say there has been a problem with the lighting (also the cresnet) long before you bought the house.


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## stefuel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A&M 350Z* /forum/post/21924359
> 
> 
> The corresponding black wire is to the 5th rail of dim8. It is the 6th thats is always hot, blackened and had the red wire. When i cycle dim8 with setup button, here is how it is wired.
> 
> 
> 1 sconce
> 
> 2 none
> 
> 3 art
> 
> 4 steps
> 
> 5 rope
> 
> 6 none
> 
> 7 none
> 
> 8 none
> 
> 
> The screen lighting does not cycle and is either disconnected or has dead bulbs



I think I may have figured this out. Find the end or ends of the rope where the power is attached. That yellow jacketed wire with the red, black, white and ground goes to there. The black wire that is powering the ropes is in the same jacket as the red. You will have to play detective and find the junction from that black wire to the ropes. When you find it...Digital camera please.


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## stefuel

This whole red wire on burned terminal 6 has me really bothered. Until we know what it's actually connected to, I want you to pull it out and wire nut it.


Along with finding the red wire at the other end we need the brand, model and how many feet of rope lighting there actually is. Most rope lighting watts is calculated by the foot. You could have to much for one circuit to handle or a short in the rope someplace.


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## stefuel

One other thing to consider while you are scoping things out. Both the Dim4 and Dim8 have the same max watt capacity (1,920 watts/16 amps). Each output is also capable of handling 1,920 watts/16 amps. So if you use all 8 or just 1 as long as you dont go over. Both the 4 and 8 should be on their own 20A circuit.


Next time you have a chance you should turn everything on and use your clamp over amp meter on the black feeds to each dim module. That should be below 16 amps each.


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## A&M 350Z

I will check the amps. The dim4 and dim8 are on separate breakers.


The ropes are 120v american lighting brand. They plug directly into 4 receptacles. No transformer. The receptacles with the ropes do not have a red wire. I checked all receptacles and the only one with red wire is the fan dimmers. 2 fans with two lutron fan blade dimmers. Both fans work without the red wire connected. Also of note, the red wire ascends out of the panel. Only ceiling loads are fans and lighting. All the lighting though works with red disconnected.


I noticed something interesting. When the backlight button is selected on the touchpanel, the backlights come on and occasionally the ropes come on too. Maybe some cresnet issue related to faulty dim8?


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## stefuel

"I noticed something interesting. When the backlight button is selected on the touchpanel, the backlights come on and occasionally the ropes come on too. Maybe some cresnet issue related to faulty dim8?"


See the last post on pg 12


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## stefuel

"The ropes are 120v american lighting brand. They plug directly into 4 receptacles. No transformer. The receptacles with the ropes do not have a red wire. I checked all receptacles and the only one with red wire is the fan dimmers. 2 fans with two lutron fan blade dimmers. Both fans work without the red wire connected. Also of note, the red wire ascends out of the panel. Only ceiling loads are fans and lighting. All the lighting though works with red disconnected."


One of those 4 rope outlets has to have the other end of that 14/3 wire in it OR there is a junction box somewhere between the CAEN enclosure and the outlets for the rope lighting. Code dictates it. It is against code to make mechaincal electrical connections un-serviceable. Wire nuts burried in the wall is a big no no.

There is also the chance that another wall outlet is the junction box for that 14/3 wire. All outlets can be configured for one live and one switched on the same plug. One of those may have been set up as a switched outlet for a free standing lamp that was supposed to come on with the ropes.


With the red still connected, check every plug top and bottom at every location for power then pull the red and do it again. Use a lamp or test light to do this. I do not want this red wire connected to the new dim8 when it gets here.


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## stefuel

My last thought for the morning. Is there a chance that the red wire powers up something that leads you to or in the bathroom or kitchen. Is there a light outside of the entry to the theater that you would also want to go dark at movie time???


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## stefuel

Here is what I think happened and I don't think it's a result of you trying to put this back together. I think some time before you bought the house, the dim8 failed and the rope lights would not turn off or dim. The easy fix was to move the wire that was supposed to be on terminal 6 (ropes) and move it to terminal 5 (back lights). That way when you turn down the back lights, the ropes turn down with it. The back lights are working so they must be getting their power from the dim4 on terminal 1 or terminal 5 on the dim8 (I suspect 1). The red used to be on terminal 5 and the black from 5 was on 6.

That red wire which is supposed to be on terminal 5 goes to a "incandescent" light someplace.


1. Is there a light fixture in the pocket for the projector?

2. Is there a light of some sort outside of the entrance to the theater that you wish you could control from the TP? It may even be on a switch but may be getting it's power from that red wire that is always hot.

3. Is there a media storage cabinet with a light in it. How else would you find your cd's and dvd's in the dark.

4. The equipment room. That's probably on a switch but you never know.

5. Any plugs in the middle of the floor near the seating that a lamp may have been plugged into.


The fact that it's associated with the "back lights" and not the "front lights" leads me to think that it's also in the back of the room. Look for signs on the carpet indicating a large furniture item was there perhaps a lighted hutch.


After we get the new dim8 in place and run network analyzer again to make sure all the cresnet errors are gone, it would be interesting to re-try hooking up the jandy spa controls. If you remember, we were trying to control and monitor it from the TP1000's They are on the cresnet which at the time was riddled with errors because of the dim8.


You better figure out where that red wire goes before I make you fly me down there and find it


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## A&M 350Z

Ha ha. All good thoughts. I need to do more investigating and take more pics. At work now, dont leave till 11, then back at 6 am! Maybe tomorrow afternoon. Dim8 scheduled for tuesday delivery.


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## stefuel

Just so you know, there is one last circuit of lights to figure out. That is connected to the dim4 on terminal 4. That is the one that is associated with the pad8 audio controller (hundred). All the other lighting is listed as incandescent but that one. That one is listed as "no dim". Do you have lights that shine down on the LC1000's when you touch the screen? I ask because the signal for terminal 4 originates within the audio zone logic and not addressable from the lighting screen on the tp.


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## A&M 350Z

Argh, busy weekend! Here is what little I learned tonight though.


For reference I confirmed what terminals are activated by the various touchpanels buttons.


Back lights DIM4-1 and DIM8-5

Front lights DIM4-2

Deck lights DIM4-3

Sconce DIM8-1

Screen lights DIM8-2

Art DIM8-3

Steps DIM8-4

Ropes DIM8-6


Those are all linked correct except ropes as we know. Again, ropes are on DIM8-5. I agree with your assertion that DIM8 went bad and ropes were connected to DIM4 back lights. To further that theory, there are two black wire connected to DIM4-1. The back lights are actually the main overheads in the room. Maybe they had originally spread the load over DIM4 and 8 and then to keep ropes working they pulled the wire from DIM8-5, added to DIM4-1 and put ropes on the DIM8-5. I checked the amps though it looks okay. It is stupid to have the ropes linked to the back lights. The ropes would be nice accent lighting during tv or sports watching. But you would not use the back lights, even dimmed with the pj on, even with my light cannon.


DIM4-4 is the floor receptacles. It was previously floor lamps I believe. Now I am using the floor receptacles (there are 3) to power my seating. So always on works good. Not necessary to go through the DIM4 but fine nonetheless. I have no idea why it is linked to the pad8/audio logic except perhaps in my pm to you.


Red wire remains a mystery. There is no entry light to the room, it is connected with game room via glass sliding doors. Maybe it was planned to control screen motor and then decided to use 12 volt trigger? The equipment closet is on a separate load controlled by a door trigger. Bathroom lights and fan all separate. The theater is an addition over our outdoor loggia/kitchen. Perhaps something powered outside was controlled. However, everything is working that I can find. I guess it can just remained disconnected!


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## stefuel

When the new dim8 is installed, split the back lights the way it was intended and put the ropes back on six. Wire nut and tape that useless red wire and push it off to the side. Tomorrow night we can swap out the dim8 and I should be able to reset the cresnet address for it from here. That'll be a first for me. See, I'm learning something too










I did some more poking around in the program you sent me. This is incomplete. None of the serial device drivers have serial strings entered in the correct fields so these drivers are sending nothing. But one thing at a time. Lets finish the lights up.


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## stefuel

When the new dim8 shows up and you see it on the table in front of you, it will become obvious to you how to change it. Just do it









I'll be home from work between 4 and 5 PM tomorrow. I just looked because I haven't done it in a while but it should take me no longer than a minute to change it's cresnet address from here.


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## A&M 350Z

DIM8 didn't show up before I left for work. On call again till 12. Might try to install it late tonight if not too tired.


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## stefuel

Damn. I was sitting here with my finger on the button


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## stefuel

Not sure what time zone you are in. Is 12:00 for you 1:00 for me??? That means 2:00AM or later at best before I could change the address. I'll check in the AM while I'm having coffee. If it's there and plugged in, I'll know it and change it.


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## A&M 350Z

Dim8 installed. Operating correctly in manual mode. Back overheads split between dim4 and dim8-5. Ropes on dim8-6. Net light off, just need a cresnet address! Red disconnected.


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## stefuel

Good job.

Net address is set. The replacement was at 11 and is now set to 65. Net light should be on now. I scanned it again with network analyzer and now what's connected is clean. You did however forget to connect the TP1000's as they show N/A. Now everything (should) be working OK. You are however still over budget on the cresnet power. Tonight we will go over how I'd like you to use that 75 watt supply so that you don't torch the 50 watt supply in the Pro2 and loose everything.


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## A&M 350Z

Awesome!! Everything works great. I intentionally left the tp disconnected. Added them in this morning and all is working well. Can you explain how we are over budget. I went to crestron's cresnet calculator and they don't even list dim modules as power items. Without the dim modules the power is sufficient.


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## stefuel

Sorry for the delay. I was having trouble with a mousetrap









My son has a physics project due tomorrow and I thought it was next week.

Try and build a single mousetrap powered car that can go 15 meters and stop give or take a half a meter. No one in his class has done it and some of these dads are hot shot engineers. I built him one that goes 15 meters and stops give or take a half inch







That ain't easy. I'd rather be troubleshooting cresnet problems from 1,500 miles away blindfolded










Anyway, I'm still trying to figure out this power usage thing. The pro2's manual states 50 watts output. I have been told that it actually has a 75 watt supply but only makes 50 at best from the cresnet connector. The more options you ad to it like the C2ENET1 reduce the available power accordinly. So 27 watts is being used by the Pro2


Pro2 27 watts

3 LC1000's @ 3 ea 9 watts

CNX-PAD8A 10 watts

C2N-TXM 8 watts

--------

54 watts


So if it is a 50 watt supply, you are over budget by 4 watts. Now if it is a 75 watt supply (manual does not say so) You do (on paper) have 21 watts to spare. Now you do have to take into consideration wire length and wire gauge. I don't know how many feet of cresnet (especially that, that is cat5) you have. Cat5 even using twisted pairs is way smaller then the 24 and G on real cresnet wire and being smaller gauge does require more power to overcome the resistance of the smaller wire. That said, power supplies especially those that have been pushed hard weaken faster with age. So my thought is as you already have it, put that 75 watt supply in service and take some of the load off the Pro2. You can do this a couple of ways but I would, let the pro2 do nothing but power it's self and 75 watt supply handle everything else. That way both would be coasting along with plenty to spare.


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## stefuel

Oh yea, plug the Jandy stuff back in and try it from the theate TP.

Now that we have reasonable communication everywhere else.


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## stefuel

I ran network analyzer again this AM and all devices came back OK. However there is still quite alot of noise on the "Y". Are you still using 4 twisted pairs?

If so, drop the twisted pair that is now on the "Y" at all connectors ALL OF THEM or it won't work and use the twisted pair from "Z". From that pair use the solid color for "Y" and the white with stripe for "Z" at all connectors. I have been told that the use of one twisted pair for Y and Z helps in rejecting the noise.


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## stefuel

Something that can cause alot of problems with cat5 that is used for any reason is the use of hand staples to secure the wire to the rough framework.

If the staples are driven in to hard, it crushes the wires insulation enough to cause shorts between wires or break wires in the pair.


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## A&M 350Z

Good point on the pro2 expansion modules using power. Didn't consider that. I am still not sure if the DIM's are using any power. My understanding is no, so the power supply as is currently configured isn't really powering anything. If I use that power supply to power all above I would need to daisy chain the devices. Or just use it to power the pad8a and maybe daisy chain the xm tuner.


Interesting about the noise on Y. I bet that is cat5 related. I cant easily change the wiring to the touchpanels. They may very well but stapled to studs in the walls. I will change the local wiring at the rack. Rather than spend hours redoing the twisted pair, I will just get the cresnet wire and do it right once.


I will give the Jandy one more shot. On call again Friday night, might try tonight or tommorrow morning though.


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## stefuel

"I'm Sorry for the delay. I was having trouble with a mousetrap

My son has a physics project due tomorrow and I thought it was next week.

Try and build a single mousetrap powered car that can go 15 meters and stop give or take a half a meter. No one in his class has done it and some of these dads are hot shot engineers. I built him one that goes 15 meters and stops give or take a half inch That ain't easy. I'd rather be troubleshooting cresnet problems from 1,500 miles away blindfolded"


I know this is just a bit OT but I'm batting a thousand this week.

My son took his mousetrap car to physics class today and it performed perfectly on the first try. There was three tests. You got X points if it could go five meters and a additional X points if it could go ten meters.

To go for the gold it had to go 15 meters and stop within a half meter of the finish line. The finish line was a 1/2 inch wide strip of tape. The cars front wheel stopped on the tape, 1/4 inch from the center line of the tape.









But that's not the best part. The cars design made it pick up speed at the end of the run. The teacher almost jumped the gun and failed it because he was sure it would blow way past the finish line. It did......but then it shifted into reverse, backed up and stopped right on the line.







I was told everyone in the room cracked up. His is so far the only one that has even gotten close


I AM THE MASTER OF THE MECHANICAL.............STUFF.


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## A&M 350Z

That is awesome! Can't wait for school science projects.


Tried the Jandy, still not working. Oh well it was worth a try. I will be curious to see what I am doing wrong.


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## stefuel

A family member was supposed to be involved in the project because part of the written part of the project was to discus tool safety. It must have been pretty obvious he had help as most of the kids cars were consructed of wood and plastic. The frame on ours is TIG welded aluminum.










I DON'T LIKE TO LOSE, it's not optional


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## stefuel

OK, back to work. There's a few things you should do before you get your reprogramming. I would like to see you split up some of the load on the cresnet. I'm sure those long runs of cat5 are sucking up their share of power.

If it were me, I would let the power supply in the Pro2 just take care of it's self. I would make up a three wire (Y,Z and G) interconnect to go from the Pro2 and say terminal 1 on the CNT-block. Then I'd make up a four wire and plug the 75 watt supply into say terminal 2. Then all you have to do is plug all the rest of the Cresnet devices into the CNT-Block. You have enough ports for that and you won't be mixing power.


Then I'd like you to replace as much of the cat5 as you can with the real thing. You really do need to reduce the amount of noise on the cresnet,

I actually did come up with a couple of fails since the dim8 change but it was not a hardware problem this time. I could see that it was just outside of what would pass and it was noise.


You said you'd like serial control of the projector. How many feet is it from the Pro2 and the projector and is there a way to get a serial cable to it.

You have a IR feed to the projector. That's still a option.


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## A&M 350Z

Found a local programmer and programming is nearing completion!! It will be loosely based on guifx Oscar layout. Will upload on Wednesday and troubleshoot, make adjustments and improvements from there. Also going to get some cresnet cable on Wednesday and rewire just for the heck of it.


----------

