# Sticky  What players support 480i over DVI-D or HDMI?



## Robonaut

Hi, all,


I'm looking at getting a Lumagen external scaler. From my correspondence with them, it seems that the best DVD signal to feed the scaler is a normal 480i signal. Obviously, I'd like this 480i signal to be as clean as possible, so I'd like it to come out of the player's digital output.


So, are there any players that can do this? Preferably under $500?


Edit: Fast forward......


Pioneer Elite 79avi

Pioneer Elite 59avi

Sony DVP-NS975V

Arcam DV79

Marantz DV9600

Classe CDP-300

SigmaTek XMB-510

LG LDA-511

NeuNeo HVD2085 (latest firmware as of 3-14-2006)

LG DVX9900H

Oppo 970HD

Oppo 980H

Pio DV490-V

Denon 2930

Denon 3930

Onkyo DV-404

Panasonic DVR (DMR-EH75VS)

Astar [Starlight] HDX9350 (Mediatek MPEG decoder - $20 player)

Esoteric DV-60

Panasonic S53

Panasonic DMR-EZ485VK VHS/DVD recorder,


The following players do also output 480i/576i over HDMI according to their manuals:

JVC XV-N652S

JVC XV-N670B

Kenwood DVF-5400

Kenwood DVF-5500

LG DV390H

Onkyo DV-SP405

Onkyo DV-SP406

Pioneer DV-410V


Hidef players:


Sony BDP-S1

Pioneer BDP-HD1

Toshiba HD-A2




[I added list here and left the other entries for "historical purposes". The OP or myself can edit the list when needed. Post additions below....larry]


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## BillP

I believe the Sony's do it. So do the Pioneers, but they are more expensive than your budget (unless you can get a great deal on a 59ai since it's being replaced by the 79ai).


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## PooperScooper

You can sometimes find used SDI modded DVD players for $500ish, but then you'd have to spend extra for the SDI input on the scaler (most of the time).


larry


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## mimason

Videogon has a Sony 975 for sale







. Arcam is another player than can do 480i HDMI.


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## Paul Bigelow

Sony DVP-NS975V does 480i over HDMI the NS70, NS90 do not.


Paul


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## rboster

Pioneer 59avi....with the 79avi out, you might find this player in your range. Also, I would run a search in advance search, title search only for this forum and you'll find previous posts on this exact topic.


Ron


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## derekjsmith

The OPPO 971 can be SDI modded http://www.pixelmagicforum.com/forum...read.php?t=639


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## JayNYC

The Sony DVP-NS975V is discontinued. I see it used and refurbished only.


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## Robonaut

Thanks, all!


I have looked through all of the other threads on this, and based on what I found, the list of players that can output 480i over HDMI is quite small:


Pioneer Elite 79avi

Pioneer Elite 59avi

Sony DVP-NS975V

Arcam DV79

Marantz DV9600

Classe CDP-300


I may try and get this thread stickied so that future seekers have any easier time of it.


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## Bytehoven




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *derekjsmith* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The OPPO 971 can be SDI modded http://www.pixelmagicforum.com/forum...read.php?t=639



I'd love to see the OPPO SDI output.


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## Mikenificent1

The Momitsu 880DX with the latest firmware can...


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## nachin

Out of these league but the Sigmatek XMB-510 can

http://www.sigmatekcomputer.com/products.php?p=xmb510 

http://www.divx-compare.com/lecteur-...0.htm?refptn=2 


It will be nice to compare video performance of High End and Low End DVD players over 480i HDMI and external scaler










Nacho.


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## PooperScooper

nachin,

Did the web pages name the manufacturers of the MPEG decoder and scaler chip(s)?


larry


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## nachin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PooperScooper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> nachin,
> 
> Did the web pages name the manufacturers of the MPEG decoder and scaler chip(s)?
> 
> 
> larry



Sure, Mediatek 1389, same model as famous Oppo.


Nacho..


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## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nachin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sure, Mediatek 1389, same model as famous Oppo.
> 
> 
> Nacho..



Thanks. It would be nice if the player performs as well as the Oppo and have 480i output via HDMI.










larry


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## PatrickGSR94

My LG LDA-511 will output 480i over HDMI, as my projector confirms that it receives a 480i signal.


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## PedroV




> Quote:
> It would be nice if the player performs as well as the Oppo and have 480i output via HDMI.



According to Kris Deering, Oppo will be launching the 970 with 480i through HDMI.

It will be a scaled down model from the 971 without the Faroudja chip but with the same Mediatek MPEG decoder.

It seems the player has a very clean 480i HDMI output.


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## bradesp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PedroV* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> According to Kris Deering, Oppo will be launching the 970 with 480i through HDMI.
> 
> It will be a scaled down model from the 971 without the Faroudja chip but with the same Mediatek MPEG decoder.
> 
> It seems the player has a very clean 480i HDMI output.



Pedro, did Kris indicate an ETA for this new Oppo model?


Thanks!


bradesp


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## PedroV

Sorry, no ETA for now.


You can read more about the new 970H in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=619439


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## Mr Joshua




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Robonaut* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi, all,
> 
> 
> I'm looking at getting a Lumagen external scaler.......



I'm in exactly the same boat. I was really clueless about the newest generation of DVD players and I've literally spent hours over the last few days reading up on them. Some support custom resolutions, some don't. Some will output 480i via HDMI, some won't. A couple will upconvert through the component connections, most won't. Its the wild west out there. You really have to know what you want and do your homework.


Very timely post Robonaut. Thanks a lot.


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## mav52

Sony 3100es


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## nachin

I can confirm now that the SiGMATek XMB-510 do 480i/576i over HDMI output.


With my Marantz S4, Gennum chip inside, 480i/576i are the best options as 576p/720p/1080i, neither in 50 or 60Hz don´t pass 24 frame conversion in the PeterFinzel test disc, so I use 576i with no problem and the Genum make the work.


SiGMATek XMB-510 It´s a cheap and respectable option until next generation High Def DVD´s.







but I suppose that high end actual DVD´s will make a better job even in 480i/576i, usually life is like that










Nacho.


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## asagarra




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nachin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can confirm now that the SiGMATek XMB-510 do 480i/576i over HDMI output.
> 
> 
> With my Marantz S4, Gennum chip inside, 480i/576i are the best options as 576p/720p/1080i, neither in 50 or 60Hz don´t pass 24 frame conversion in the PeterFinzel test disc, so I use 576i with no problem and the Genum make the work.
> 
> 
> SiGMATek XMB-510 It´s a cheap and respectable option until next generation High Def DVD´s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but I suppose that high end actual DVD´s will make a better job even in 480i/576i, usually life is like that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nacho.



100 player!!


Sorry for this dummy question but.. :


576i is standard DVD format for PAL discs, right? If the player only reads the sample from the disc and outputs it through a digital HDMI output, no option for loss seems to be possible, IS THAT CORRECT?


So, in case using an external scaler and a hq amp for sound, is there any reason for spending more than 100 in a player?? I guess there is, I must be missing quite a few points.


Would any dummies evangelist pls throw a bit of light to my brain darkness..??


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## nachin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *asagarra* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 100 player!!
> 
> 
> Sorry for this dummy question but.. :
> 
> 
> 576i is standard DVD format for PAL discs, right? If the player only reads the sample from the disc and outputs it through a digital HDMI output, no option for loss seems to be possible, IS THAT CORRECT?
> 
> 
> So, in case using an external scaler and a hq amp for sound, is there any reason for spending more than 100 in a player?? I guess there is, I must be missing quite a few points.
> 
> 
> Would any dummies evangelist pls throw a bit of light to my brain darkness..??



Try yourself


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## asagarra




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nachin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Try yourself



I did at some point. I bought one of the first players with DVI.

However, I did not have the external scaler and it worked with its internal one.


Results were very positive regarding PQ but very negative regarding usability.

After four or five firmware upgrades, the unit behaviour is a bit tricky.


Nowadays, the unit will stop after 20 min of operation until its get cool again.


lesson learnt: it might happen that from a tech stand point these boxes may do its job but at the end of the day paying for a bit of engineering may be worth.


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## nachin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *asagarra* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I did at some point. I bought one of the first players with DVI.
> 
> However, I did not have the external scaler and it worked with its internal one.
> 
> 
> Results were very positive regarding PQ but very negative regarding usability.
> 
> After four or five firmware upgrades, the unit behaviour is a bit tricky.
> 
> 
> Nowadays, the unit will stop after 20 min of operation until its get cool again.
> 
> 
> lesson learnt: it might happen that from a tech stand point these boxes may do its job but at the end of the day paying for a bit of engineering may be worth.



DVI it´s an only progressive output, so, as you know, that´s mean that electronics inside the player make a difference, HDMI it´s different as you can get the 576i stream in YCrPb4:4:4 to the display or scaler directly.


Absolutely agree with you that picture quality it´s not the only matter and a better chasis, components, etc makes the diff. The question is that in a few months will get HD DVD´s and, in my opinion, we can get pretty aceptable results with a 100 DVD and a good scaler (if we already own it).


For sure I would prefer a Pionner 989i/79 to the Sigmatek










The question is that the Sigmatek it´s a nice player and make his job in 576i, very well indeed. You can also pass track at high speed







but don´t use his progressive outputs as they are not good at all










Nacho.


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## asagarra




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nachin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> DVI it´s an only progressive output, so, as you know, that´s mean that electronics inside the player make a difference, HDMI it´s different as you can get the 576i stream in YCrPb4:4:4 to the display or scaler directly.
> 
> 
> Absolutely agree with you that picture quality it´s not the only matter and a better chasis, components, etc makes the diff. The question is that in a few months will get HD DVD´s and, in my opinion, we can get pretty aceptable results with a 100 DVD and a good scaler (if we already own it).
> 
> 
> For sure I would prefer a Pionner 989i/79 to the Sigmatek
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The question is that the Sigmatek it´s a nice player and make his job in 576i, very well indeed. You can also pass track at high speed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but don´t use his progressive outputs as they are not good at all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nacho.



Tomorow I will go and get a new Sony NS92V. It's supposed to be a good video and audio player and able to output 576i to feed the A/V receiver+scaler I'll be getting soon (Philips DFR9000/01).


I will let you know how the whole thing works.


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## nachin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *asagarra* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Tomorow I will go and get a new Sony NS92V. It's supposed to be a good video and audio player and able to output 576i to feed the A/V receiver+scaler I'll be getting soon (Philips DFR9000/01).
> 
> 
> I will let you know how the whole thing works.



Some info on it;

Sony NS92V 


Nacho.


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## asagarra




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *asagarra* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Tomorow I will go and get a new Sony NS92V. It's supposed to be a good video and audio player and able to output 576i



Bad news! at least for me...!


Got my new NS92V this afternoon. It does not output 480i/576i over HDMI.

576i comes only through components. I'll investigate about possible hacking to make that work. Otherwise, I'll give it back to the shop.


BTW, First impression is very good PQ over HDMI but a bit special when trying to read non original discs. Not tested audio capabilities yet.


If I find the time, I'll run DVE to give more info.


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## bri1270

I don't think the Sony 3100ES does 480i over HDMI - it's not listed in the options anyway. Is there a hack for it or something?


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## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bri1270* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't think the Sony 3100ES does 480i over HDMI - it's not listed in the options anyway. Is there a hack for it or something?



You have the player? If so, I'll remove it from the list until proven otherwise. Also, I assume you are connected to a HDMI display.


larry


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## hifiaudio2

Any chance the Sony changer does this?


DVP-CX995V


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## bri1270

I do have the player Larry, I just bought it a few days ago. I'm connected through component, but I've gone through the set-up options thoroughly, and the only HDMI output options listed on screen and in the manual are:


Auto

1920x1080i

1280x720p

720x480p


There is a note in the manual that states: "To force the system to switch to interlace when "PROGRESSIVE" is selected..."


However, that note is clearly in the Component Out section of the manual. Unfortunately I can't test it to see if it applies to the HDMI, but I would seriously doubt it.


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## PooperScooper

Thanks, we'll go with a "no".


larry


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## mav52

my mistake on the 3100es. I have the player but its also operating in component not HDMI. According to the sony support site:

» digital video upconversion

» selectable 480p/720p/1080i output via HDMI digital interface (separate adapter available for TVs with DVI input)


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## PooperScooper

No problem, Mav.










larry


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## welwynnick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *asagarra* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 100 player!!
> 
> 
> Sorry for this dummy question but.. :
> 
> 
> 576i is standard DVD format for PAL discs, right? If the player only reads the sample from the disc and outputs it through a digital HDMI output, no option for loss seems to be possible, IS THAT CORRECT?
> 
> 
> So, in case using an external scaler and a hq amp for sound, is there any reason for spending more than 100 in a player?? I guess there is, I must be missing quite a few points.
> 
> 
> Would any dummies evangelist pls throw a bit of light to my brain darkness..??



This is a very useful sticky thread.


There are several processes that a DVD player typically performs, not necessarily in this order:


0. Video is recorded as interlaced YCbCr 4:2:0 (compressed Horiz & Vert chroma)

1. The MPEG decoder de-multiplexes the stored data stream into the separate audio and video channels.

2. The MPEG decoder also up-converts to YCbCr 4:2:2 (compressed H only)

3. The player performs up-conversion to YCbCr 4:4:4 (no chroma compression).

4. Interlaced component may be de-interlaced to progressive.

5. Video processing may be applied - filtering, colour, contrast, sharpening etc.

6. Component is D to A converted, buffered and filtered for analogue output.

7. Progressive component may be up-scaled to 720p etc.

8. Component is transcoded from YCbCr 4:4:4 to RGB 4:4:4.

9. Upscaled progressive RGB is output by HDMI.


A "pure" HDMI digital video output may come in lots of different flavours:

1. Upscaled RGB ("worst")

2. Progressive RGB

3. Interlaced RGB

4. Interlaced YCbCr 4:4:4

5. Interlaced YCbCr 4:2:2 ("best" - same as SDI)


So it's not quite so simple to say that interlaced video is what you want, but that is the most important process that you want the scaler to perform instead of the player. However, the closer you can get to raw data off the disc the better. SDI is the best interface, but even that has been through one up-conversion process (which is prone to chroma bugs!). That's why you always want a player with a good MPEG decoder.


BR, Nick


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## Steve L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *welwynnick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 4. Interlaced YCbCr 4:4:4
> 
> 5. Interlaced YCbCr 4:2:2 ("best" - same as SDI)



Nick,


Will 4:4:4 sampled video look worse than 4:2:2? You'd think the more samples taken the better the image quality would be. Yet I know 4:2:2 is the choice for many pro video applications, so apparently that's not the case.


Or is 4:4:4 only superior "on paper", and not used because the difference in quality is not worth the extra bandwidth cost?


The reason I ask is I'm trying to understand if an SDI mod'd player might be superior to a 480i HDMI player that is YCbCr 4:4:4.


Thanks.


/steve


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## PooperScooper

The only reason I can see upsampling to YCbCr 4:4:4 is for easy conversion to RGB 4:4:4 or analog output. There's only 4:2:0 on the disc, everything else is "made up". Certain video processing chips may only take YCbCr 4:4:4 - another reason to upsample.


larry


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## nachin

Which players output 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 over HDMI?


My Sigmatek XMB-510 output 4:4:4.


Nacho.


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## PooperScooper

At a minimum, 8bit 4:2:2 comes from the MPEG decoder. For 480i, it really doesn't matter if it's 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. For 480p and higher, the Denon 5910 and Pio 79avi definitely do 10bit YCbCr 4:2:2 via HDMI. I would hope the Marantz 9600 and Classe CDP 300 would too. I'm not sure about some of the other popular players like the Denon 3910, Pio 59avi, etc.


larry


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## jschefdog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nachin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Which players output 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 over HDMI?



I believe the Sony DVP-NS975V outputs 4:2:2 over HDMI at 480I. I'm pretty sure that is what the VP30 I have connected to it reported. Would have to check to be positive. It definitely wasn't 4:4:4.


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## mimason

My 975 outputed RGB via HDMI with HD+.


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## welwynnick

Firstly, NOTHING outputs YCbCr 4:2:0; not even the MPEG decoder.


No Denon DVDs output native interlaced video over DVI / HDMI.


4:2:2 is preferred to 4:4:4 _in the context of scalers_ so that the up-conversion can be performed by the scaler rather than the player. I believe many scalers process video as YCbCr 4:2:2, so this format will reduce undesirable digital conversion stages, as well as analogue.


Therefore an SDI feed to a scaler will almost certainly be better than HDMI 4:4:4.


A few DVDs can output interlaced native digital YCbCr 4:2:2. I know the Arcam DV79. Pioneer 79AVi and Marantz 9600 certainly can, and I believe the upcoming Oppo OPDV970H will be able to, as well. Some of them do good audio, too, and the Marantz does SACD over iLink, as well as 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:2. Nice.


Nick


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## Steve L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *welwynnick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> [...] and I believe the upcoming Oppo OPDV970H will be able to, as well. [...]



Actually, one of the reasons for my post was that in response to my query, Oppo customer service said the 970h will probably output YCbCr 4:4:4. I'm not sure if that's a design decision on Oppo's part, or perhaps a Mediatek requirement. I didn't ask and they didn't mention whether the bit depth would be 8 or 10.


I'm trying to find the best fit for the AVM II processor/scaler already built-in to my Fujitsu XHAP5040US display. AVM II currently does an amazing job with analog 480i over component. Picture quality is indistinguishable, to my eyes, to upconverting players I've tried (including the Oppo 971H) at 720p or 1080i. I'm just wondering if PQ might surpass them, given the right 480i digital signal?


/steve


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## PooperScooper

For 480i output 8bit YCbCr 4:4:4 is fine. AFA the P50 is concerned, there's no need to feed it anything other than 480i or 480p. With my older P50/10, 480p from a Silicon Image deinterlacer does a better job for DVDs.


larry


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## Steve L

Assuming the 971H is [arguably] the "state of the art" for upconverting players, I have to say I was pleasantly surprised at how well the AVM-II scaler performed when I A/B'd the Oppo 480i component signal vs. 720p/1080i DVI, using DVE test patterns and video segments. They were so close, at times I forgot which one I was looking at! I guess Fujitsu has improved the scaler with each succeeding generation.


/steve


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## MoG

been searching for the sony for the past few days with no luck... doesn't seem to be available anymore... (new or refurb)


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## jkeener71




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PatrickGSR94* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My LG LDA-511 will output 480i over HDMI, as my projector confirms that it receives a 480i signal.



HEH,


My LG LDA-511 will output 1080i over HDMI


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## ted_b




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jkeener71* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> HEH,
> 
> 
> My LG LDA-511 will output 1080i over HDMI



?? let's stay on topic, especially for a sticky please!


This thread is about 480i over digital (so you can use the DVD player as a perfect transport for a scaler, with no deinterlacing, etc being done prior to the scaler).


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## Slonk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nachin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can confirm now that the SiGMATek XMB-510 do 480i/576i over HDMI output.
> 
> Nacho.



Does it have HDCP protection on 480i/576i ?


----------



## Rick Green




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ted_b* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ?? let's stay on topic, especially for a sticky please!
> 
> 
> This thread is about 480i over digital (so you can use the DVD player as a perfect transport for a scaler, with no deinterlacing, etc being done prior to the scaler).



Ted:


Actually, the thread is about 480i over DVI-D and HDMI. Period.


It is not stated in the sticky nor should it be inferred that anyone would be able to "use the DVD player as a perfect transport" just because you are using the digital output at 480i. That would be more like SDI, but that isn't through DVD-D or HDMI.


It will be unlikely to get a pure MPEG bit stream out of any current DVD player because they are performing processing of the MPEG bit stream before it even leaves the player. There seems to be some misunderstanding that the processing takes place after the signal is de-interlaced. This is not so. DVD players perform many steps of picture enhancement before the signal is de-interlaced.


All you can hope for is an interlaced digital stream that has not had too much processing and that has not passed through a D/A converter. 480i should not be thought of as a "perfect transport" digital steam. That would exist only if the manufacturer wanted to output a SDI-like signal. They don't, for the most part. They want to output what they think will be the best looking processed 480i signal.


I use 480i HDMI to an outboard processor and think it is a great idea, but I think I would be misleading someone if I told them my Pioneer 59 or 79 was a perfect transport because I know it is doing a lot of processing before the signal leaves the player. Pioneers' "Digital Direct" setting is not pure MPEG! I don't know about other DVD players but I suspect they are not out-putting a pure MPEG digital bit stream.


Which DVD player does the least amount of processing of the 480i signal would be a great topic for another thread. What I would like to know is this: What manufacturer is out-putting a pure MPEG bit stream?


Rick


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## ted_b




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick Green* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ted:
> 
> 
> Actually, the thread is about 480i over DVI-D and HDMI. Period.
> 
> 
> It is not stated in the sticky nor should it be inferred that anyone would be able to "use the DVD player as a perfect transport" just because you are using the digital output at 480i. That would be more like SDI, but that isn't through DVD-D or HDMI.
> 
> 
> It will be unlikely to get a pure MPEG bit stream out of any current DVD player because they are performing processing of the MPEG bit stream before it even leaves the player. There seems to be some misunderstanding that the processing takes place after the signal is de-interlaced. This is not so. DVD players perform many steps of picture enhancement before the signal is de-interlaced.
> 
> 
> All you can hope for is an interlaced digital stream that has not had too much processing and that has not passed through a D/A converter. 480i should not be thought of as a "perfect transport" digital steam. That would exist only if the manufacturer wanted to output a SDI-like signal. They don't, for the most part. They want to output what they think will be the best looking processed 480i signal.
> 
> 
> I use 480i HDMI to an outboard processor and think it is a great idea, but I think I would be misleading someone if I told them my Pioneer 59 or 79 was a perfect transport because I know it is doing a lot of processing before the signal leaves the player. Pioneers' "Digital Direct" setting is not pure MPEG! I don't know about other DVD players but I suspect they are not out-putting a pure MPEG digital bit stream.
> 
> 
> Which DVD player does the least amount of processing of the 480i signal would be a great topic for another thread. What I would like to know is this: What manufacturer is out-putting a pure MPEG bit stream?
> 
> 
> Rick




My comment was less about "perfect" and more about the "1080i over HDMI" post....wayyyyyy off topic. Yeah, an SDI mod is definitely at a subparticle level, where 480i over HDMi is more macro, but not what I was reacting to. Sorry if I technically said the word "perfect"; it's not.


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## Rick Green

Ted:


I understood that your post was more about the 1080i comment which was a good call. I was also being a little too focused on your "perfect transport" wording. I just get tired of what I precieve as misleading statements from manufacturers and other review sites that make "480I over HDMI" to be some sort of perfect transport solution. For the most part, I think it is 480i without D/A conversion. They are still processing the signal.


Rick


----------



## Steve L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick Green* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> All you can hope for is an interlaced digital stream that has not had too much processing and that has not passed through a D/A converter.



Forgive my ignorance, but in this respect, exactly how does 480i digital via HDMI differ from 480i via SDI? What extra conversions are taking place in the HDMI scenario?


----------



## Slonk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sluciani* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Forgive my ignorance, but in this respect, exactly how does 480i digital via HDMI differ from 480i via SDI? What extra conversions are taking place in the HDMI scenario?



Color coding (RGB vs YUV), i think SDI is the original format from the mpeg decoder i.e. YUV as coded on the DVD, while HDMI -i think- is transcoded to RGB.


Also HDMI could have added HDCP protection while SDI is always "cleartext"


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sluciani* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Forgive my ignorance, but in this respect, exactly how does 480i digital via HDMI differ from 480i via SDI? What extra conversions are taking place in the HDMI scenario?



Go into the 59avi thread and look for the posts (near the end) that "csuddborn" (I can't remember Carl's AVS name - it's something like that). Check out the settings that the 59avi needs to have set to output the correct digital data from the color test patterns in AVIA Pro. SDI is about the only way to guarantee you are getting *decoded* MPEG from the MPEG decoder (I'm nitting Rick's post above mentioning MPEG raw bits - he may have meant raw YCbCr 4:2:2. MPEG decoders decode the MPEG and upsample the YCbCr 4:2:0 to 4:2:2).


larry


----------



## Rick Green




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PooperScooper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...he may have meant raw YCbCr 4:2:2. MPEG decoders decode the MPEG and upsample the YCbCr 4:2:0 to 4:2:2).
> 
> 
> larry



I was not even thinking of that as a type of processing that I was concerned with. I would be happy with only one conversion which up-samples to YCbCr 4:2:2, which is not quite raw bits, you are right. But, after that the player is doing quite a bit of processing of the 480i data. My wish would be for just the 4:2:2 conversion and then out the door to my processor.


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick Green* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was not even thinking of that as a type of processing that I was concerned with. I would be happy with only one conversion which up-samples to YCbCr 4:2:2, which is not quite raw bits, you are right. But, after that the player is doing quite a bit of processing of the 480i data. My wish would be for just the 4:2:2 conversion and then out the door to my processor.



Yes, I know what you meant but I just wanted to make sure others didn't get the wrong idea and knew what the minimum that has to be done. Some MPEG decoders still don't do the 4:2:0 -> 4:2:2 upsample correctly. I'm not opposed to some processing on the 480i stream as long as it's done correctly - i.e chroma filters and the like. Although with SDI you can just let the external scaler do the filtering and everthing else. It will be interesting to see what the new Oppo does with 480i via HDMI.


larry


----------



## Steve L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick Green* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But, after that the player is doing quite a bit of processing of the 480i data. My wish would be for just the 4:2:2 conversion and then out the door to my processor.



If what you're talking about are things like additional circuitry for contrast, color, sharpness, NR and other controls, I see what you mean. One would hope in a well-engineered player, though, that setting these controls to "flat" or "off" might make such circuitry transparent.


Oppo, hope you're reading this!


----------



## Steve L

By the way, a month or so ago, Oppo customer service said the 970H will most likely be digitally outputting 480i RGB at 4:4:4. (They did add that these specs might be subject to change prior to introduction.) As of last week, latest timeframe for this unit is April.


I wonder, is YCbCr-> RGB colorspace conversion hardwired into the Mediatek MP2 decoder chip, or a design decision by Oppo? If the latter, wouldn't it be a nice plus to make it menu selectable?


/steve


----------



## PooperScooper

I think I remember reading the MPEG decoders can output RGB 4:4:4. I doubt you'd visiually notice any difference with everything else being equal compared to YCbCr 4:2:2. However, I believe scalers/processors work in the YCbCr "domain". If so, they'd convert the RGB back to YCbCr.



> Quote:
> One would hope in a well-engineered player, though, that setting these controls to "flat" or "off" might make such circuitry transparent.



Which is exactly what didn't happen in the Pio players. And 0 vs 7.5 IRE option for digital output? Please. Black level IRE doesn't exist in the digital domain.


larry


----------



## Steve L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PooperScooper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And 0 vs 7.5 IRE option for digital output? Please. Black level IRE doesn't exist in the digital domain.
> 
> 
> larry



Are you _*this*_ Larry?









http://www.larryjordan.biz/articles/lj_white.html 


Oppo service also said the 970H would pass BTB.


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sluciani* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you _*this*_ Larry?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.larryjordan.biz/articles/lj_white.html
> 
> 
> Oppo service also said the 970H would pass BTB.



LOL! No, that's not me.








Also, one reason I thought Oppo might convert the 480i to RGB is to guard against the HDMI chip from doing conversion from YCbCr to RGB for DVI targets. Some older HDMI chipset(s) did this conversion incorrectly (clipped BTB and WTW data). However, I didn't mention this because I wouldn't think anybody would be using these old HDMI chips and hopefully the current ones do it correctly.


larry


----------



## jkeener71

O what the heck!


Does mine? See sig...


I think it does, but I am sure I'm wrong.


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jkeener71* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> O what the heck!
> 
> 
> Does mine? See sig...
> 
> 
> I think it does, but I am sure I'm wrong.



Don't think so. Also, your gear list belongs in your AVS user profile, not your sig. Thanks.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6930498 


larry


----------



## Steve L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PatrickGSR94* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My LG LDA-511 will output 480i over HDMI, as my projector confirms that it receives a 480i signal.



Anyone have any critiques of the video quality of the LG LDA-511? At $199 MSRP, is it a sleeper? Or should it be put to sleep?










Does anyone know what MPEG decoder it uses and how 'pure' the 480i output is? I just don't want to overlook a potentially good 480i over HDMI l player amidst all the hoopla surrounding the upcoming 970H.


/steve


----------



## uliving

Is the Sony DVP-NS975V HDMI output selectable for 480i in addition to the 720p and 1080i?


I'd like to buy one, but I'd really appreciate it if somebody here could verify that it does 480i output, for sure. I haven't been able to find anything on the Sony website to confirm that it does. It must be a discontinued player because it doesn't show up in the list of current DVD players.


----------



## ted_b




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *uliving* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is the Sony DVP-NS975V HDMI output selectable for 480i in addition to the 720p and 1080i?
> 
> 
> I'd like to buy one, but I'd really appreciate it if somebody here could verify that it does 480i output, for sure. I haven't been able to find anything on the Sony website to confirm that it does. It must be a discontinued player because it doesn't show up in the list of current DVD players.



Easy solution (2 min or less). Google it, go to Amazon.com, download pdf manual.


Did it. Net/net, on page 79 it confirms that an HDMI selection can be 720 x 480i.


----------



## uliving

ted_b, you're a scholar and a gentleman....as well as one clever guy...thanks !!!


----------



## ted_b

No prob.....just a guy with WAY too much time on his hands.... :>)


----------



## PooperScooper

The first post in the thread also has a list of players that do 480i via HDMI and the Sony 975 is in the list.










larry


----------



## uliving

Is there is an opinion from the folks on this thread regarding the quality of the Soni 975 outputting 480i ?


poor, good, great ???


----------



## PooperScooper

Kris reported in his Secret's review that the 975 does not pass black-than-black via HDMI. IMO, any player that has this bug is worthless, especially if you want to use it for 480i into a good scaler.


larry


----------



## Steve L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PooperScooper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Kris reported in his Secret's review that the 975 does not pass black-than-black via HDMI. IMO, any player that has this bug is worthless, especially if you want to use it for 480i into a good scaler.



Larry,


As long as there's no black crush going on and the player's gray scale has been carefully calibrated with something like DVE (or even the THX setup patterns), why is not passing BTB necessarily a bad thing? There shouldn't be an BTB information on the source DVD, should there?


Or are you thinking you need BTB if you want to use the player to display JPEGs?


/steve


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> There shouldn't be an BTB information on the source DVD, should there?



DVDs contain BTB and WTW. Somewhere, probably in the archives now, you can find images that show the BTB data in a screen capture. Search for "The Talented Mr. Ripley". Even though a calibrated digital display will not show BTB, the video info is crucial for scaling. If you want a video chain that is close, clipping BTB and WTW may not be a big impact. If you are trying to put together a video chain that is as accurate as you can make it, you want all the video info contained on the DVD to make it to your video processor.


larry


----------



## Steve L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PooperScooper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> DVDs contain BTB and WTW.



WOW. You learn something new every day! I assume DVD's that pass this info are technically "out of spec", however? I understand that the data can help scaling "in theory", but in reality, do you think anyone is likely to notice less than perfect edge definition in these extreme black and white areas of the picture? Maybe, but I'm not sure.


And as you say, if a display is properly calibrated, you're not going to notice detail in these areas either.


Here's the thread I think you were referring to. This post is an analysis of below black pixels in selected frames of "Talented Mr. Ripley". Post #21 has a link to a JPG scene.

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...94#post1486694 


/steve


----------



## PooperScooper

There's a reason why "black" is 16 and "white" is 235 (or is it 234?) in the range of 0-255 in 8bit digital video.










> Quote:
> And as you say, if a display is properly calibrated, you're not going to notice detail in these areas either.



Yes, but only for digital displays. Clipping BTB can cause "dark" details to be lost where there was BTB info and scaling is being done. CRTs, given they way they work, will sometimes show BTB info depending on the level of "brightness" immediately preceeding the BTB in the same part of the image.


larry


----------



## uliving

You guys are way over my head on the BTB thing....


I already have a Sony DVD that does a decent job of 480p, but I'm getting a Lumagen HDP and have read just enough to be dangerous. It sounds like getting a 480i would be a good idea and send the signal to the LumagenHDP via the HDMI input. I'm in the process of deciding on a 720p DLP projector (probably the new Infocus IN76, but waiting for a few reviews before purchasing). Other options are the Benq 8720, if I can get confirmation from Benq that a short throw lens is available...which I haven't been able to confirm yet.


I was interested in the Sony 975 because it is reasonably priced right now...but from the above it sounds like I should pass on it.


Has anybody thought of ranking the list at the beginning of this thread in Best to Worst dvd machines that can do 480i via HDMI and identifying those that really aren't worth considering? That would be EXTREMELY helpful for us neophytes.


----------



## PooperScooper

If you are getting a 720p native DLP or LCD projector, you may want to try an upscaling DVD player outputting at 720p. The Lumagen is a nice piece of gear, but it may be a good a idea to get a "baseline" for comparison so you can decide if the extra thousand(s of) dollars is justified for your own personal tastes and criteria.


larry


----------



## ted_b




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PooperScooper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The first post in the thread also has a list of players that do 480i via HDMI and the Sony 975 is in the list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> larry



Yes, of course, that's why the player was of interest! He just couldn't confirm it with Sony, et al. I don't blame him for checking. No offense, but I'd do the due-dilligence too if spending any $$.


----------



## PooperScooper

Oh, I didn't know there was a question. Well, obviously there was but not when the players were put on the list. Back when the 975 came out there was a lot of discussion about it and 480i output was confirmed, from what I remember. No harm helping a guy out. Please don't stop.










larry


----------



## Steve L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *uliving* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You guys are way over my head on the BTB thing....



What I take from what Larry is saying re: BTB is that if you plan on using a *digital* display device _calibrated to ISF or DVE black levels_, it's not going to make a visible difference if the player passes blacker than black or not. If the DVD has below black information encoded on it, you're not going to see it, whether the player passes it or not, because you've adjusted your display to the industry standard for black level that most DVD's adhere to. Anything blacker than standard black will be 'crushed'.


If, like me, this is the way you choose to go, the Sony 975 would be fine, assuming you can find one. It's also an upconverter, and I agree with Larry that you might want to try it's built-in 720p upconversion before spending big bucks on an external scaler that may only offer a subtle improvement in picture quality for a much higher cash outlay.


If, on the other hand, you either plan to use a CRT-based projector, or to adjust your digital projector so that industry standard 100% blacks are really charcoal gray instead, than you may see more shadow detail on some DVD's with a player that allows BTB information to pass to your display device. (I used to adjust my plasma display blacks to charcoal grey, but have since come to prefer seeing black as _truly_ black.) Well-regarded and relatively inexpensive 720P upconverters that do pass BTB (but not 480i digital) that come to mind include the Oppo 971H (connected via DVI), the Panny S97 and the Denon 1900.


/steve


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> If, on the other hand, you either plan to use a CRT-based projector, or to adjust your digital projector so that industry standard 100% blacks are really charcoal gray instead,



Actually, some people advocate this. Many digital displays are "weak" at displaying things at the very bottom of their "black range". If you elevate brightness a tad, you can see more dark detail at the expense of "not black" blacks. Sometimes this is not a bad tradeoff, especially in bright viewing environments.


larry


----------



## absolutezerok

Just as an FYI, everyone seems to be leaving out that the Sony 975 is plagued with issues. I only got to play about 3 DVD's before the HDMI on mine went out. It also has a big issue with the DVD tray getting stuck.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

The NeuNeo HVD2085 added 480i over HDMI with the latest firmware available at the Neodigits site.


Chris


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chris Gerhard* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The NeuNeo HVD2085 added 480i over HDMI with the latest firmware available at the Neodigits site.
> 
> 
> Chris



Thanks. I added it to the list in post #1.


larry


----------



## Steve L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Paul Bigelow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sony DVP-NS975V does 480i over HDMI the NS70, NS90 do not.l



Anyone know if the NS75, due out next week, will support 480i over HDMI?


/steve


----------



## andersbk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick Green* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ted:
> 
> 
> What I would like to know is this: What manufacturer is out-putting a pure MPEG bit stream?
> 
> 
> Rick



None. HDMI carries video pixels across the link, i.e., RGB444, YCbCr444, or YCbCr422. It's not designed to transport MPEG2 packet data.

The ieee1394 interface, however, does transport MPEG streams. In this case, the TV is the decoder, and then the question becomes "how good is the decoder in the ieee1394 tv set"? But that's OT for this thread.


----------



## rlawlis

NeuNuo HELIOS HVD2085 w/ recent ver. 4 firmware supports both 480i and 576i trhu HDMI port. Anyone tried one?


----------



## Steve L

Looks like the new Pioneers will continue to support 480i over HDMI as well. The MSRPs are only $99 for the DV-490V and $149 for the DV-696AV! They are both "universal" players (DIVX, WMA, etc).


The 696AV also supports DVD-Audio and SACD and has some additional circuitry intended to improve PAL playback (Dual Pure Cinema Progressive Scan ).


Anyone tried one of these?


/steve


EDIT: Japanese link to the 696AV: http://www.pioneer.co.jp/dvdld/playe...6av/index.html . This player appears to support just about any input format out there.


----------



## dicey

Kris Deering of Secrets just did a review of the Marantz 9600 and said its the most accurate video trasport (480i via HDMI and component) to date. One little snag though, it costs $2099! Of course, it does a lot more than just play DVDs. Hopefully the Oppo 970 will have similar video performance for 1/10 the price whenever it finally comes out.


----------



## kashmir

Excellent thread, thank you for the information. I've recently ordered a DVDO VP30, and was looking for a DVD player to do exactly this - output 480i. I have not decided on a display yet (I'm leaning towards the AE900, but have an offer on an InFocus 7210 that is tempting) but this thread has helped me knock one more decision off the list.


I believe I'll be going with the HVD2085, going by the name Helios now on the Neodigits website.


----------



## oink




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dicey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Kris Deering of Secrets just did a review of the Marantz 9600 and said its the most accurate video trasport (480i via HDMI and component) to date. One little snag though, it costs $2099!.




No one is dumb enough to spend $2100 for a transport....right??


----------



## nachin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oink* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No one is dumb enough to spend $2100 for a transport....right??



You spend more in a car, also a transport










Nacho.


----------



## rmlowz

No one is dumb enough to spend $2100 for a transport....right??


Hello,



Audio/Video is my only hobby that I have had for most of my 49 years. It is only money in my opinion. I say this because I think I need to try one of the 9600s out. Input 480i into the VP30 to my Epson 800.


rmlowz


----------



## nachin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rmlowz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No one is dumb enough to spend $2100 for a transport....right??
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> Audio/Video is my only hobby that I have had for most of my 49 years. It is only money in my opinion. I say this because I think I need to try one of the 9600s out. Input 480i into the VP30 to my Epson 800.
> 
> 
> rmlowz



I want also one for my S4.










But I still think like you










Does anyone tried the 9600 + S4?


Nacho.


----------



## oink




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rmlowz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Audio/Video is my only hobby that I have had for most of my 49 years. It is only money in my opinion. I say this because I think I need to try one of the 9600s out. Input 480i into the VP30 to my Epson 800.
> 
> 
> rmlowz




I wouldn't say that Audio/Video is the only hobby I have had for my 50 years...


Yeah, I am looking for 480i HDMI for my VP30 to augment my Onkyo sp1000 setup.

$2100 is about $1500 more than is necessary for that IMHO.

Bring on the Oppo 970H!


To each his own...


----------



## rmlowz

Hello,



I need to correct what I said. What I should have said is, its the only hobby that I have had and kept for a long time. All the other hobbies have come and gone.


rmlowz


----------



## frthomas

Apparently the Pioneer DV-989AVI-S and Pioneer DV-868AVI-S also support 480/576i via HDMI (from their User Guides). They may be the EU models of the Elite ones...


----------



## frthomas

And so does the LG DVX9900H


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *frthomas* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Apparently the Pioneer DV-989AVI-S and Pioneer DV-868AVI-S also support 480/576i via HDMI (from their User Guides). They may be the EU models of the Elite ones...



Yes, they are the US equivalents.


larry


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *frthomas* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And so does the LG DVX9900H



OK, I'll take your word for it.










larry


----------



## frthomas




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PooperScooper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, they are the US equivalents.



Right. Now I think it could help European readers if their references made it to the list on the first post, maybe in parenthesis next to the US models ?


Also, may I suggest the last item on the list (a Pio 490 or something) is placed next to the other Pioneer with a full "brand" name? It took me a while to figure out "Pio" was "Pioneer" 


Just trying to make an excellent reference better. Thanks for maintaining the list, this is a great resource.


Fred


----------



## FerretHunter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oink* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No one is dumb enough to spend $2100 for a transport....right??



Everyone has different tastes and preferences. There is no need to ridicule someone for their choices. The Marantz has a lot of things in it that I highly doubt the Oppo will have, or even your Onkyo 1000. Heck, the Onkyo has a retail price of $2000, and it can't even output 480i over HDMI into your VP30. How dumb is that? And if you have a $2000 player, why do you have a $2000 video processor? Some might see that as dumb.


For people who are unfortunate enough to have a very critical video eye, the Marantz might be worth the extra money to squeeze whatever extra performance they can.


Having a look at the Marantz user manual, you have a choice of outputting one of these formats over HDMI (at 480i), dependent on the connected display:


RGB-Normal

RGB-Expand

YCbCr-1 (4:4:4)

YCbCr2 (4:2:2)


I'm no video guru, but I think these options might be important. All 480i outputs over HDMI are not equal. The goal is to have an unprocessed signal going straight from the DVD disc out through the HDMI port. Perhaps the Marantz does this the best over any other players that Kris Deering has reviewed.


I don't have any Marantz equipment. I'm just saying that it is insensitive to infer that anyone who might be thinking of purchasing the Marantz for its' 480i output over HDMI instead of the Oppo might be dumb. There are a lot of reasons one might want the Marantz instead of the Oppo.


----------



## oink

*FerretHunter*,



I wasn't attempting to ridicule anyone...if so, I apologize.


I was merely looking at the situation as to what that amount of money can purchase in terms of performance.

If you add the cost of a VP and an inexpensive 480i HDMI transport this could equal or be less than the Marantz, with the added bonus of processing other sources for a display.

And more and more AVSers are arriving at that analysis.


How have I come to this conclusion?

A little history helps...I purchased the Onkyo 1 1/2 years ago.

Puts out a nice picture @720p IMO.

However, I wanted to upgrade performance for dvds and other sources.

So I bought a DVDO VP30 a month ago (not 1 1/2 years ago).

Now I need a 480i player (the Onkyo goes upstairs at that point).


Sensitivity aside, there are not good reasons to buy the Marantz for 480i *only*.

If anyone thought there was, I would say that "more research" might be appropriate.

Lastly, and not least: IMHO.


----------



## Darian

Well boys... and girls if so happens.

I have a VP30 with SDI... the add on card on the way...

A RP56 with SDI, a RP62 with SDI, and (wait for it) picked up a Marantz 9600 today.


Should have time to use it all this weekend.


----------



## oink




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Darian* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well boys... and girls if so happens.
> 
> I have a VP30 with SDI... the add on card on the way...
> 
> A RP56 with SDI, a RP62 with SDI, and (wait for it) picked up a Marantz 9600 today.
> 
> 
> Should have time to use it all this weekend.




Please give us a review after you have hooked up all your players.

Have you received an ABT102 yet?

Should have an excellent benefit to SD DVD...


----------



## Bill

How about this one? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1134703785411 I got one, love its look and it plays well. It does have optical audio out as well as coax. The picture doesn't do it justice. It is piano black on the sides.


----------



## oink




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How about this one? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1134703785411 I got one, love its look and it plays well. It does have optical audio out as well as coax. The picture doesn't do it justice. It is piano black on the sides.




Does it put out 480i HDMI?


Seems to be a bit _too_ inexpensive perhaps...


----------



## Bill

Yes, and a 30 day return policy.


----------



## Ursa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, and a 30 day return policy.



Is it selectable between RGB and digital component as well? (i.e., 4:4:4 vs. RGB)


----------



## Bill

yes.


----------



## TWD

You don't have to pay $2100 for the DV 9600. Do a google search. You can find them much cheaper.


----------



## glenned

I started a new thread about this player, but thought that I should include a post here as well.


The new Pioneer DV-490V-S, MSRP $120.00.


Has an HDMI output. Will put out RGB or YCbCR at the following resolutions:

480i

480P

720P

1080i


It will do this into an HDMI or DVI input.


It has two selections for HDMI Color:

"Full range RGB" outputs digital video in the PC signal standard

"RGB" outputs digital video in the Video signal standard (16-235).


It does not pass Blacker than Black. It does pass Whiter than White.


Navigation is almost instantaneous.


The 480i YCbCr output is correctly decoded by the Rec 601 decoding matrix. I don't know if upscaled YCbCr is twisted to Rec 709 in the upconversion.


At 480P YCbCr there was some pixel cropping or image shifting at the Top and Right sides of the image when feeding an Infocus SP7200.


At 720P YCbCr, it was more severe with 2" Black Bars on the Top, Bottom, and Right sides of the image. This was with DVE test patterns. I haven't played an actual DVD to see if it happens with that too, but I presume that it will.


No problems like this at 480i YCbCr. Other than that I can't evaluate the PQ at 480i because the Infocus , though it will accept 480i on its DVI input, does not handle it correctly and produces an image with some screen flicker. It looks like a computor monitor does when run at 60hz vs 72hz or faster.


The image shifting problems might be the Infocus inability to properly handle video that is non-standard for DVI. I will try it out on a display that has HDMI inputs to check.


Glenn


----------



## oink

*Glenn,*



Thanx for the report.


We really do need a few good 480i HDMI transports.

Please keep us posted of your findings.


No BTB?

Bummer...


----------



## Steve L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *glenned* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It has two selections for HDMI Color:
> 
> "Full range RGB" outputs digital video in the PC signal standard
> 
> "RGB" outputs digital video in the Video signal standard (16-235).
> 
> 
> It does not pass Blacker than Black. It does pass Whiter than White.



Great report, Glenn. Thx so much.


I prefer to calibrate my DVD and display using the DVE black level adjustment, which puts value 16 at 100% black. This is probably the correct setting for about 95% of the DVDs out there, so the 490V's inability to pass BTB is really not a huge issue for me.


Perhaps an imperfect, but acceptable, solution for those who prefer to see value 16 as dark gray, is to switch to "Full Range RGB" and re-tweak their display's black and white levels to compress the extended 0-255 range?


/steve


----------



## glenned




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Steve L* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Great report, Glenn. Thx so much.
> 
> 
> I prefer to calibrate my DVD and display using the DVE black level adjustment, which puts value 16 at 100% black. This is probably the correct setting for about 95% of the DVDs out there, so the 490V's inability to pass BTB is really not a huge issue for me.
> 
> 
> Perhaps an imperfect, but acceptable, solution for those who prefer to see value 16 as dark gray, is to switch to "Full Range RGB" and re-tweak their display's black and white levels to compress the extended 0-255 range?
> 
> 
> /steve



Your Welcome.


Actually, the code 16,16,16 is the signal for Black for all sources mastered to the digital Video signal standard, which includes all DVDs and all digital video broadcasts whether off-air, cable, or satelite.


If you set the DVD player to output video in the PC signal standard, the player scales 16,16,16 to 0,0,0 and 235,235,235 (White) to 255,255,255. All the values in the video signal which are close to 16 and 235 are rescaled so that they are below 16 and above 235. Which shoves them below Black and Above White. The result is that all signals with those values disappear from the video image because they are all displayed as Black or White. All shadow details and all highlite details disappear.


Video is mastered to the Video signal standard and all sources and displays should be designed to that standard. Even PC's are moving to that standard via Microsofts cooperation with the ISF in designing future versions of Windows.


Glenn


----------



## PooperScooper

 http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an9717.pdf is a nice short PDF on converting RGB to YCbCr and vice versa. Very straight forward. I didn't know where to stick this cause it comes up here and there.


larry


----------



## malbo1

Don't know if you are still looking for player options, but my Yamaha 950 can do :


480i

480p

576p (pal hd)

720p

1080i

auto


I have been very happy with this player so far. It also gives the added benefits of being a 5 disc player, DVD-Audio, SACD, MP3, NTSC and PAL formats with HDMI and component outputs.


----------



## Steve L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *glenned* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually, the code 16,16,16 is the signal for Black for all sources mastered to the digital Video signal standard, which includes all DVDs and all digital video broadcasts whether off-air, cable, or satelite.
> 
> 
> If you set the DVD player to output video in the PC signal standard, the player scales 16,16,16 to 0,0,0 and 235,235,235 (White) to 255,255,255. All the values in the video signal which are close to 16 and 235 are rescaled so that they are below 16 and above 235. Which shoves them below Black and Above White. The result is that all signals with those values disappear from the video image because they are all displayed as Black or White. All shadow details and all highlite details disappear.



I agree. Was just thinking that for the rare DVD that is mis-mastered with black between 5,5,5 (or whatever) and 16,16,16, the PC standard might make a difference to someone who calibrated their display so that 16,16,16 is charcoal grey instead of black.




> Quote:
> Video is mastered to the Video signal standard and all sources and displays should be designed to that standard.



My thoughts too, which is why not passing BTB is not a big issue for me.


/steve


----------



## wimpynet

i bought today a pioneer 578a

i think that dont support, im ok?


----------



## rtankm

The Pio 490V can output 4:4:4 at best and the Pio 989 4:2:2. The 989 have a much better picture then the 490v after going thru my vp30 to optoma h77. Now do I still need a SDI picture to get any much better picture out?


----------



## jjmd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *malbo1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Don't know if you are still looking for player options, but my Yamaha 950 can do :
> 
> 
> 480i
> 
> 480p
> 
> 576p (pal hd)
> 
> 720p
> 
> 1080i
> 
> auto
> 
> 
> I have been very happy with this player so far. It also gives the added benefits of being a 5 disc player, DVD-Audio, SACD, MP3, NTSC and PAL formats with HDMI and component outputs.



I have a 950 and I'm pretty sure it does not do 480i via HDMI, only component. If I'm wrong, let me know.


Jay


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rtankm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Pio 490V can output 4:4:4 at best and the Pio 989 4:2:2. The 989 have a much better picture then the 490v after going thru my vp30 to optoma h77. Now do I still need a SDI picture to get any much better picture out?



It depends. It depends on whether or not the 490V is doing something more than upsampling 4:2:2 to 4:4:4. There's no easy way to tell. SDI has two major benefits: 1) You know that you are getting output from the MPEG decoder. 2) You don't ever have to worry about HDCP. In theory a DVD player can output 480i YCbCr 4:2:2 as it comes from the MPEG decoder (some may output 4:4:4, I don't know for sure) via HDMI.



larry


----------



## funlvr1965

looks like the new denon dvd-955s wil do 480i although I believe that using the analog outputs as well as some other goodies like mosquiton noise reduction


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *funlvr1965* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> looks like the new denon dvd-955s wil do 480i although I believe that using the analog outputs as well as some other goodies like mosquiton noise reduction



The 955s is a 2910. No 480i via HDMI in the specs I saw for the 955s. 480p/720p/1080 was all it said.


larry


----------



## Denner

Which of the players outputs the correct WTW and BTB via HDMI 480/576i ??


Pioneer Elite 79avi

Pioneer Elite 59avi

Sony DVP-NS975V

Arcam DV79

Marantz DV9600

Classe CDP-300

SigmaTek XMB-510

LG LDA-511

NeuNeo HVD2085 (latest firmware as of 3-14-2006)

LG DVX9900H

Oppo 970HD

Pio DV490-V

Denon 2930



Hope some of you can awnser, I am looking for a DVD player to feed my LumagenDVI via HDMI with a 480/576i signal










Best Regards

Denner

(Denmark)


----------



## uzun

I want to know which output correct WTW and BTB via HDMI 480i, and which exhibit no CUE problems with their HDMI 480i output.


----------



## benthx

I see a lot of mention about dvd players ability to output 480i or 576i over hdmi. While this can be a desirable feature for some. Not all projectors will accept 480i directly from the dvd player. The specs on the majority of pjs will shown accept formats but dont always specify over which connection. I found this out only a few days ago.










So before you set your mind to dvd player that outputs raw data make sure your pj accepts it via hdmi/dvi. If you are going straight from the player.



Ben


----------



## ted_b




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *benthx* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I see a lot of mention about dvd players ability to output 480i or 576i over hdmi. While this can be a desirable feature for some. Not all projectors will accept 480i directly from the dvd player. The specs on the majority of pjs will shown accept formats but dont always specify over which connection. I found this out only a few days ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So before you set your mind to dvd player that outputs raw data make sure your pj accepts it via hdmi/dvi. If you are going straight from the player.
> 
> 
> 
> Ben



The relevance of "raw" 480i over HDMi is so that via a scaler or vid processor your signal is not scaled twice (over-simplified answer). If a pj doesn't accept 480i then it doesn't have a vid processor capability that's the subject of this thread.


----------



## benthx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ted_b* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The relevance of "raw" 480i over HDMi is so that via a scaler or vid processor your signal is not scaled twice (over-simplified answer). If a pj doesn't accept 480i then it doesn't have a vid processor capability that's the subject of this thread.



Yes you are correct here.


I should have gone into depth a little more with my post. For example the benq 8720 which has quite a good scaler/deinterlacer faroudja flx2310 has this capability. So the need for a separate vid processor is not as important but do recognise it gives more control. Feeding this projector 480i/576i raw from dvd player capable of doing so with hdmi will not work. The projector has the onboard processing but only via componet conection on a 480i signal. This is for those who wish to output raw and let the pj do the upscaling and deinterlacing without the addition of a video processor.


Ben


----------



## ted_b

Ben,

So you're saying to be aware of the fact that there are some pj's with scalers that have HDMI but cannot take a 480i HDMI signal and upconvert? Good point then. Thanks


----------



## razel

Was interested in an HDMI 480i player and been watching this tread until I ran HQV benchmark and exposed the crappy deinterlacing on my Sony 60XS955. The Insignia player below scored better in the important benches. Am shocked at how difficult it is to create a basic 480i HDMI player with little problems. I guess trying to decode MPEG and spit it out as raw as possible is as hard to do as making as pure water, but how hard is it to create a fast player that doesn't have basic problems?


I wound up going back to my 6 year old Toshiba 480i component player with no problems for most DVDs and use my laptop for DVDs with better picture quality connected DVI-HDMI to TV. Not as easy as putting a disc in and hitting play, but if I want a great player, the NVIDIA PureVideo deinterlaces wonderfully and is something I already have.


480i HDMI players tried and problems noted:

Sony DVP-NS975V: edge enhancement in 720p & 1080i, green color decoding push.

Insignia NS-VDVD1: doesn't pillar box 4:3 content, has Y/C error, edge enhancement in 720p & 1080i.


480i HDMI recorders:

Philips DVDR3400: wants to reset HDMI to 480p when changing tv inputs, slow.


Noticed that the Insignia and Philips haven't been added to the list. I also see more DVD recorders from Panasonic with HDMI 480i, but I have no experience.


----------



## Zusan

1. From what I read in the (downloaded) manual, the LG DV9900H does NOT support 480i over HDMI. It supports 480i over component, but not over HDMI. HDMI-out is only 1440x576i/1440x480i, which I think is not 480i?!? Or is it?


2. There is one more player, which I think makes 480i over HDMI as well, the Xoro HSD-8500. I dont know if this is german or european-only product.


3. Would this be the wrong thread to ask for a recommendation for a "[email protected]"- or better a "[email protected]"-player in the range of about 250 euros?


Sorry if No. 3 is off-topic.


Zusan


----------



## KMO

Informative thread, but here are a couple more questions.


Which of these players will output high-resolution multichannel audio over HDMI alongside 480i/576i? Many seem to be restricted to basic audio when set to these formats. Sloppy. And how many receivers and displays fail to cope with this, given that it entails extra pixel repetition to make room?


And how many of these 480i/576i capable players signal 4:3/16:9 aspect ratio over HDMI?


----------



## KMO

Oh, and Zusan, yes that is 576i/480i. The pixel rate of 720x576i is too low for HDMI, so it sends every pixel twice. They call it 720(1440)x576i. It doesn't give you double horizontal resolution.


To get hi-res multichannel audio in, you have to repeat pixels even more to make room (because the audio data is fitted into the borders, effectively, so by doubling up pixels, there's more transmission space in the border). So you step up to 720(2880)x576i or 720(1440)x576p.


----------



## c722

The Pio industrial player V8000 also does 480i over DVI


----------



## rrg

I own the NeoDigits Helios HVD2085 player. It's running the latest firmware (V6) which is supposed to provide 480i/576i output over HDMI, but I've been unable to get it to do so. Neodigits customer support has stopped answering my mail after telling me to run the latest firmware (which I'm already doing).


Can anyone else who owns this player confirm for me whether they're able to get digital 480i/576i out of it? If so, is there some special trick apart from just setting the player to output "NTSC only" or "PAL only"?


480p/576p work fine, but that's not what I need here.


It's frustrating. I just want a decent region-free player that outputs digital 480i/576i. This doesn't; another player that I considered (the Oppo 970) has an image size problem with upconverted content--separate from the 480i/576i problem, but I'd like a player that handles both functions properly.


----------



## audiovision

the Onkyo DV-404 does. must say with the DVDO VP50 it gives an amazing picture. way better then with the 12 times more expensive Parasound D3.


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiovision* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the Onkyo DV-404 does. must say with the DVDO VP50 it gives an amazing picture. way better then with the 12 times more expensive Parasound D3.



Thanks, I addded it to the list in post#1.


larry


----------



## StoneFool

Which players output 480i/576i through HDMI/DVI without HDCP?


Neodigits 4000H

Yamakawa 365 (this one s*cks though)


Momitsu 880N


LG DV9900H (with "hack?")


----------



## c722

The new pioneer dvd recorder 645/745 does 480i too. It even offers 4 complete color space options: video RGB, PC RGB, YCbCr 444, YCbCr 422. It has slight pixel loss (2 at bottom) but otherwise okay as a 480i transport. It's chapter/menu traversing is quite fast also.


I was pleasantly surprised because I bought it not for this purpose, but now I'm glad I just got my 480i transport. The built is definitely way better than oppo.


----------



## JThiessen

My Panasonic DVR (DMR-EH75VS) allows me to choose either 480P, 480i, 720P, or 1080i


----------



## sciondriver

I just want a player that can..


do my laundry

cook my food

cut the grass

provide love

pay my bills

keep me cool or warm

lastly provide 100 gigapixels per square inch of SHDTV (super hdtv)


is this really too much to ask?

i would pay upwards of $99 with 62 years no payments no interest.

todays players just do not seem to live up to the hype.




...yes i am just playing around


----------



## Ebanks

Anyone know off hand if the pioneer elite DV-46AV will do 480i over HDMI? The local pioneer rep just told me it would, but I don't see it on the list in this thread and haven't been able to find anything specific about it on their website...


It is SO much cheaper than the 79avi..


----------



## baltar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nachin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> DVI it´s an only progressive output, so, as you know, that´s mean that electronics inside the player make a difference, HDMI it´s different as you can get the 576i stream in YCrPb4:4:4 to the display or scaler directly.
> 
> 
> Nacho.



Does this mean that the Oppo 971H (DVi only) does NOT do 480i/576i? De specs say it does?


----------



## moxie1617

Actually the specs don't say 480i over DVI. It doesn't do 480i over DVI.


----------



## baltar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moxie1617* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually the specs don't say 480i over DVI. It doesn't do 480i over DVI.



Yes my mistake. I read (specs on a Dutch webseller) that it does support 480i/576i but not on which output so that must be component and not DVI.


I had almost ordered it.


----------



## mac4big2

I have a maxent 42" tv to which I'm tryng to add a DVD player VCR combo with composite and component cables, I tried both of these and they work fine, my problem is, I would like to hook up the cable line from the dvd vcr box to the maxent tv, but as you know the tv does not have a tuner, it is a monitor. has I said before the dvd and vcr players work fine with either the composite of component cable, but I get no tv image. what can I do?


----------



## z28rod

By a hdtv tuner or get a cable box.


----------



## audiocvk

The New Panasonic DVD-S53 player will allow you to use 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p with HDMI. It has excellent picture quality. It can be had for under $100. Sadly like most DVD players today..... Panasonic has removed buttons on the unit so you only get play, stop, eject, and power button. Forward and reverse buttons have been removed that have to be used from remote. All these companies are taking this trend to further their profits.


----------



## Mechanon

Astar [Starlight] HDX9350 supports 480i over HDMI

Chipset: Mediatek MT1389EE.

Price: $20 at newegg


----------



## razel

Mechanon,


$20 after rebates holy ------. Got a review for us? How's the response time? Any problems with picture quality?


----------



## Televators




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *razel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mechanon,
> 
> 
> $20 after rebates holy ------. Got a review for us? How's the response time? Any problems with picture quality?



FWIW, you can get it for half of that price right now on the same site.


However, I have no clue if this DVD player is any good. The price is ridiculously low though.


----------



## ELMitz

Esoteric DV-60 does 480i via HDMI


----------



## JETninja




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mechanon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Astar [Starlight] HDX9350 supports 480i over HDMI
> 
> Chipset: Mediatek MT1389EE.
> 
> Price: $20 at newegg




It's $9.99 after a $20 Rebate right now at Newegg.....know nothing about the unit though.


You need promo code from an newletter they send out for this price, good till 4/30


----------



## PooperScooper

Thanks for the updates, I updated the first post. I'm going to pick up the Astar. The Mediatek MPEG decoder is good. I'm going to see how it compares to the Oppo 970HD for 480i.


larry


Edit: Nevermind, I don't do rebates so it's $30 from Newegg. Reviews suck too.


----------



## polyscroll

Add the Pioneer DV-400V as another that will do 480i over HDMI. It also has the MediaTek MT1389FE Decoder.


----------



## Arvy

I have an Oppo 970 and a Dell 37" LCD. The Dell supports resolutions from 4801 to 1080i, but I can't find it's native resolution. My question is whether to set the Oppo at 480i and let the Dell upscale the picture (if it even will) or put the Oppo at 1080i and risk multiple upconversions.


----------



## PooperScooper

Try 480p, but just use what looks best.


larry


----------



## Arvy

The difference in resolutions is barely noticeable to me. As usual, 720p does better with motion scenes and 1080i without movement. My TV must not have a top quality scaler, but for the money, the Oppo is just fine.


----------



## Axatax

The Sony BDP-S1 does 480i HDMI and so does the equivilent Pioneer. These are Blu-Ray players, however, but of course play standard DVDs.


----------



## rkgriffin

Anyone know if the Onkyo DV-SP504 can output 480i?


EIDT: Found the manual and it does not. However, the new DV-SP405 (replacing the 404) still outputs 480i.


----------



## eightninesuited

Can someone tell me which players meet this criteria?


- Must play SACD + DVD Audio

- Output 480i via HDMI to scaler

- Under $300


Thx.


----------



## moxie1617

Oppo 970.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=682896


----------



## Sankar

The Oppo 970HD sends 480i via HDMI but will do so using either RGB or YPbPr 4:4:4 colorspaces.


The Toshiba HDA2 will send using the YpbPr 4:2:2 colorspace which I believe is the native recording on dvds.


I believe that the new Oppo 980HD also can send via 4:2:2.


----------



## Hal900x

Edit because my original point was dumb, and I'm learning just enough to be dangerous.


----------



## Hal900x




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sankar* /forum/post/11284868
> 
> 
> The Toshiba HDA2 will send using the YpbPr 4:2:2 colorspace which I believe is the native recording on dvds.



The A2 can output 480i? I thought your lowest rez option on those was to upconvert to 480p. If so it seems ideal: 4:2:2 with 480i over HDMI. Can't really beat that until SDI right? Not to mention it plays HD DVD's and, with the newest firmware, supposedly handles 1080p/24. Anyone tried it out for 480i over HDMI?


----------



## PooperScooper

SD and HD DVDs are encoded with 8bit YCbCr 4:2:0. The only benefit of YCbCr 4:2:2 is the ability to output 10bit video (pre Deep color) vs 8bit. For 480i ouput 8bit is all that is needed so YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB 4:4:4 is fine since it has to end up at 4:4:4 for displaying. 10bit output is nice for upconverted/scaled SD video if the display can handle it.


larry


----------



## dweltman

Does anybody know if the Esoteric DV-50S will out 480i over its DVI output?


----------



## PooperScooper

No it won't. I don't know of any DVD players that output 480i via DVI.


larry


----------



## Mustang3GT07

samsung


----------



## Serpeant

So, which are the best value divx DVD players that output 480i over HDMI?


I plan to use it with my Onkyo 875 amp to upscale which has a Reon HQV chip.


So far, I have found the Panasonic DVD-S53 - what is the PQ like? Would it do my Onkyo 875 justice? Its RRP in Aus is $219.


It needs to be available in AUstralia.


----------



## PooperScooper

You should ok with the S53. Deinterlacing is key. Hopefully the Reon filters ICP (or CUE) if they exist. I'm guessing it does but it may be selectable and it could depend on how the Onkyo sets up the Reon.


larry


----------



## jfz

Does anyone know if the Toshiba A3 outputs 480i via HDMI?


----------



## SpeedDemon

Oppo DV-980H does 480i over HDMI flawlessly. Please add to the first post. I run this setup to my Pioneer PDP-6010FD and it flawlessly inverse telecines to 480p/24 and then scales it up to 1080p/24 and cadences to 72hz. The end result is smooth judder free motion and a smooth SD picture. 480i sucks, but at least the Oppo and Pioneer have let me make the most of it.


----------



## Ovation




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Hal900x* /forum/post/11889701
> 
> 
> The A2 can output 480i? I thought your lowest rez option on those was to upconvert to 480p. If so it seems ideal: 4:2:2 with 480i over HDMI. Can't really beat that until SDI right? Not to mention it plays HD DVD's and, with the newest firmware, supposedly handles 1080p/24. Anyone tried it out for 480i over HDMI?



The A2 will NOT output a 1080p signal. It is limited to 1080i. But it does output 480i via HDMI so either the display or an outboard video processor can do all the work (one of the reasons I chose it over the A3 that was available at the same price).


----------



## Ovation




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jfz* /forum/post/12328368
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if the Toshiba A3 outputs 480i via HDMI?



It does not.


----------



## THE_COW_IS_OK




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ovation* /forum/post/12393871
> 
> 
> The A2 will NOT output a 1080p signal. It is limited to 1080i. But it does output 480i via HDMI so either the display or an outboard video processor can do all the work (one of the reasons I chose it over the A3 that was available at the same price).



Just to confirm. NTSC 480i 4:2:0 out over HDMI?

Also, how about multi zone? Does it read PAL disc, if so, does it output 576i?




I am looking for a DVD player that output 480i & 576i & read mpg2(SD&HD) stored movies on my HDD (via usb or RJ45). Any input?


Tkx, Sam.


----------



## ashmostro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiocvk* /forum/post/10165342
> 
> 
> The New Panasonic DVD-S53 player will allow you to use 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p with HDMI. It has excellent picture quality. It can be had for under $100. Sadly like most DVD players today..... Panasonic has removed buttons on the unit so you only get play, stop, eject, and power button. Forward and reverse buttons have been removed that have to be used from remote. All these companies are taking this trend to further their profits.




thanks to this post, i picked up one of these units and A/B'ed it against a denon 1740. i returned the 1740 because it doesn't handle layer changes as well as the panny










i am quite happy with the speed and quality of this unit. i'm unhappy with how ugly it is...


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *THE_COW_IS_OK* /forum/post/12841886
> 
> 
> Just to confirm. NTSC 480i 4:2:0 out over HDMI?
> 
> Also, how about multi zone? Does it read PAL disc, if so, does it output 576i?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am looking for a DVD player that output 480i & 576i & read mpg2(SD&HD) stored movies on my HDD (via usb or RJ45). Any input?
> 
> 
> Tkx, Sam.



No SD player outputs YCbCr 4:2:0 over any output. The output of the MPEG decoder is YCbCr 4:2:2 (possibly 4:4:4). I doubt the HDM players are any different. The chroma upsampling done by the MPEG decoder is, in some cases, the root of the CUE bug (Chroma Upsampling Error).


larry


----------



## THE_COW_IS_OK




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PooperScooper* /forum/post/12865705
> 
> 
> No SD player outputs YCbCr 4:2:0 over any output. The output of the MPEG decoder is YCbCr 4:2:2 (possibly 4:4:4). I doubt the HDM players are any different. The chroma upsampling done by the MPEG decoder is, in some cases, the root of the CUE bug (Chroma Upsampling Error).
> 
> 
> larry



K, 4:2:2 is ok.

I was reading about the oppo, it is great cause it can also output SACD DSD, but some members mentioned it have problems with 480i/576i HDMI output and need an SDI to fix. my VP (radiance) doesn't have SDI input so what other player you suggest.


----------



## M4P

So would it be better to set the DVD player to 480i and let the tv do the upscaling? Does setting the player at 480i as opposed to 480p really make a difference? I have a 1080p tv (Sharp LC-52D62U )


----------



## ashmostro

from what i've recently learned (and it ain't much!) it all depends on the quality of the upscaler being used, regardless of where it's located (in the source, avr, or tv).


in my situation, the best upscaler in my system resides in my avr, so i send 480i to it, let it do the upscaling to 1080p and then let my tv just play the signal without further scaling or deinterlacing. i made that decision after testing all the scalers in the system and chose the one that resulted in the best picture quality. you should do the same experiment and find out which works best in your system.


----------



## M4P

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it. Right now I am trying to decide between the Panasonic S53K, the Philips 5982, or the Samsung DVD-1080P7. I have a credit to use at a store and unfortunately they don't carry Oppo, so I am pretty limited. I understand the Philips can't pass DTS, the Samsung has had good reviews as to PQ, but seems they have build quality problems (I did see on their site they have a new firmware out last week, but don't know if it addresses these problems). Back to the Panasonic, are you happy with the PQ? Also, can you play +R/W disks on it?


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *THE_COW_IS_OK* /forum/post/12953531
> 
> 
> K, 4:2:2 is ok.
> 
> I was reading about the oppo, it is great cause it can also output SACD DSD, but some members mentioned it have problems with 480i/576i HDMI output and need an SDI to fix. my VP (radiance) doesn't have SDI input so what other player you suggest.



I have a 970 that outputs 480i/576i just fine. I've seen one or two people claim the SDI modded outputs a slightly better image, however, I have no idea what screen size is needed to see it or what the differences really are. The only issue is that the Mediatek MPEG decoder suffers from ICP (chroma error, just like almost every other MPEG decoder) but all scalers nowadays have filters to fix it. The Mediatek deinterlacer in the player does and excellent job of fixing the issue.


larry


----------



## MSmith83

Seeing that the Denon DVD-2930CI is listed in this thread as a player with 480i output, I should mention that it's not a pure 480i output. The player seems to be doing some sort of processing before outputting 480i. This results in external video processors to severely trip on even the most basic material. Stay away from the Denon DVD-2930CI if you for some reason seek to use its 480i output.


----------



## Fudoh

Guys,


if SDI is not an option and price doesn't matter while picture quality and especially built-quality (= no! oppo) is important, what's the current 480i/576i non-plus-ultra DVD player ? I have looked into reviews for the Marantz 9600 and Arcam DV137 (and similar), but it's hard to find any statements on the digital SD quality, since the reviews (and reviewers) focus on the 1080p quality of the high-end players.


Any recommendations ?


----------



## bullzeye

I just picked up a Toshiba HD-A30 HD-DVD player on clearance from Best Buy, and can confirm that it will output 480i over HDMI. I'm surprised this one hasn't been mentioned. I played a horribly interlaced episode of Star Trek: TNG through my Onkyo TX-SR875's Reon processor, and it looked pristine.


The one downside is if you want to play an HD-DVD, you'll have to go into the setup and switch back to 1080p manually. But I don't imagine too many of us are going to be playing many HD-DVDs in the future.


----------



## mjg100




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bullzeye* /forum/post/13203853
> 
> 
> I just picked up a Toshiba HD-A30 HD-DVD player on clearance from Best Buy, and can confirm that it will output 480i over HDMI. I'm surprised this one hasn't been mentioned. I played a horribly interlaced episode of Star Trek: TNG through my Onkyo TX-SR875's Reon processor, and it looked pristine.
> 
> 
> The one downside is if you want to play an HD-DVD, you'll have to go into the setup and switch back to 1080p manually. But I don't imagine too many of us are going to be playing many HD-DVDs in the future.



I am keeping my HD DVD A35 player just for the 480i output. Gefen has a new scaler coming out that has the T2-400 Realta chip in it. This should make an excellent up-converted SD image.


----------



## ivo welch

The original list of qualifying DVD players is years old. many of the models are now obsolete and can no longer be found.


Is there a list of *cheap* DVD players with HDMI out that qualify nowadays?


Do any of my local costco or walmart models fit the bill? since all we need is a 3-year old chipset, this should be really cheap today.


----------



## greyflag

The Oppo 980H seems to be the most cost effective solution out there. I have an Anthem AVM-50 on order and am deciding between the Oppo or a DV-79AVI demo unit. The new Denon DVD -2500BTCI transport is also in the running...


----------



## moxie1617

The list was updated on 1/9/08. Re-read the 1st post again.


----------



## ashmostro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greyflag* /forum/post/13395359
> 
> 
> The Oppo 980H seems to be the most cost effective solution out there. I have an Anthem AVM-50 on order and am deciding between the Oppo or a DV-79AVI demo unit. The new Denon DVD -2500BTCI transport is also in the running...



the panny s53 is cheaper


though the oppo has nicer "features" imo.


i use the panny for compatibility reasons. it's a good transport.


----------



## kkpro

Does the S54 also output 480i? I went to Panny's website but it does not say.


----------



## ashmostro

the downloadable manual says no, only 480p+


----------



## kkpro

Thanks, I'll try and get the S53 then


----------



## jackculb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ashmostro* /forum/post/13578879
> 
> 
> the downloadable manual says no, only 480p+



The S54K does in fact output 480i over HDMI.


----------



## Ultimateherts

JVC XV-N652S/XV-N650B supports 480i HDMI.


----------



## uderman

I am looking for a DVD player which can play region 2(ntsc/pal) movies from europe and japan. My current tv is a Sony XBR2 LCD which wont do PAL so I am going to need a pal to ntsc converter but soon I am buying a Pioneer 141FD which can use Pal/Ntsc/Secam. 480i over hdmi to denon 5308ci's hqv realta then pioneer 141fd.


there are a few options


i can buy a european player or version


or us player or version with region code hack


it could be a blu-ray player which can do 480i over hdmi (in a decent way thats mentioned in above posts) and a european player or version (region b and region 2) ntsc/pal


which do you think would be better?


note: i am not interested in watching region 1 dvds on this dvd player, i will be using a different one for that purpose. the reason i am looking for a transport is to take advantage of the realta in denon and spend less on the player


----------



## wmcclain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *uderman* /forum/post/14989137
> 
> 
> I am looking for a DVD player which can play region 2(ntsc/pal) movies from europe and japan. My current tv is a Sony XBR2 LCD which wont do PAL so I am going to need a pal to ntsc converter but soon I am buying a Pioneer 141FD which can use Pal/Ntsc/Secam. 480i over hdmi to denon 5308ci's hqv realta then pioneer 141fd.
> 
> 
> there are a few options
> 
> 
> i can buy a european player or version
> 
> 
> or us player or version with region code hack
> 
> 
> it could be a blu-ray player which can do 480i over hdmi (in a decent way thats mentioned in above posts) and a european player or version (region b and region 2) ntsc/pal
> 
> 
> which do you think would be better?
> 
> 
> note: i am not interested in watching region 1 dvds on this dvd player, i will be using a different one for that purpose. the reason i am looking for a transport is to take advantage of the realta in denon and spend less on the player



The Oppo 980 at $169 meets your criteria.


Blu-Ray: I'm not sure. I thought there were no such players for SD-DVD NTSC and PAL region free (without a soldering iron?) but I haven't kept up.


-Bill


----------



## uderman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wmcclain* /forum/post/14989609
> 
> 
> The Oppo 980 at $169 meets your criteria.
> 
> 
> Blu-Ray: I'm not sure. I thought there were no such players for SD-DVD NTSC and PAL region free (without a soldering iron?) but I haven't kept up.
> 
> 
> -Bill



seems like its going to be an oppo 980h for me. in case i want to upgrade to something a bit better, what options would i have? again it could be a region 2 only player but i want the ntsc playback for japanese dvds.


would a pioneer 79avi be a much better transport than 980h?


----------



## uderman

can I set oppo 980h to output native (ntsc or pal) system? There is a big chance that pioneer 141fd handles pal and ntsc signals better than oppos pal/ntsc converter.


and how is the Denon DVD-2500BDCI European edition(region B,region 2) comparing to oppo 980h on DVD playback? denon outputs 480i over hdmi and its a pal/ntsc player. I read some somehow negative feedbacks about denon dvd players like 3930 and 2930 in previous posts(they output 4:4:4 vs oppos 4:2:2) but denon must have a better mpeg decoder and interlacer than oppo. i know its much more money but it can play region b blu-rays for that reason i would be willing to spend more money on it.


thanks


----------



## wmcclain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *uderman* /forum/post/14991869
> 
> 
> can I set oppo 980h to output native (ntsc or pal) system?



Yes.


-Bill


----------



## Barneys




----------



## mariajohn

Arcam DV79

Marantz DV9600

Classe CDP-300

SigmaTek XMB-510

LG LDA-511


Hidef players:


Sony BDP-S1

Pioneer BDP-HD1

Toshiba HD-A2


I believe the Sony's do it. So do the Pioneers, but they are more expensive than your budget


----------



## adesio

fairly sure any dvd player that has dvi out and hdmi will also upscale... interested in what your application is here.


----------



## wmcclain




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adesio* /forum/post/15186370
> 
> 
> fairly sure any dvd player that has dvi out and hdmi will also upscale... interested in what your application is here.


 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...aysprune=&f=37 


-Bill


----------



## greeno

Along with passing 480i via DVI/HDMI, I'd like to see a list of players that do not clip BTB and WTW via HDMI. From the display calibration sub-forum HERE there's some discussion of the clipping and Mediatek-based players. I have no colorspace control on my display (toshiba 36AV500U LCD) so I couldn't test that.


LG DN898 via HDMI (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i (1080p not tested) clips BTB and WTW.

Philips 59xx via HDMI also clips BTB and WTW.


Note: BTB = blacker than black, WTW = whiter than white.


----------



## ageha

Is the list up-to-date?


----------



## ageha

The following players do also output 480i/576i over HDMI according to their manuals:

JVC XV-N652S

JVC XV-N670B

Kenwood DVF-5400

Kenwood DVF-5500

LG DV390H

Onkyo DV-SP405

Onkyo DV-SP406

Pioneer DV-410V


----------



## PooperScooper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ageha* /forum/post/15395180
> 
> 
> The following players do also output 480i/576i over HDMI according to their manuals:
> 
> JVC XV-N652S
> 
> JVC XV-N670B
> 
> Kenwood DVF-5400
> 
> Kenwood DVF-5500
> 
> LG DV390H
> 
> Onkyo DV-SP405
> 
> Onkyo DV-SP406
> 
> Pioneer DV-410V



Thanks, I updated the first post. Looks like 480i via HDMI may be more common nowadays especially if players share the same video chips.


larry


----------



## ageha




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PooperScooper* /forum/post/15395610
> 
> 
> Thanks, I updated the first post. Looks like 480i via HDMI may be more common nowadays especially if players share the same video chips.
> 
> 
> larry



The manuals for the Kenwood DVF-5400, DVF-5500, Onkyo DV-SP405, DV-SP406 and Pioneer DV-410V are looking pretty similar. I mean it seems all OSD options are the same. Could it be they are all the same player with a different case?


I just realized not even all Full HD sets do accept 480i/576i over HDMI... Looks like all LG and Samsung sets don't support 480i/576i over HDMI. Sharp and Sony seem to do it and Panasonic has no information about HDMI input formats in their manuals.


By the way I found another player which can output 480i/576i over HDMI according to the user manual:

Panasonic DVD-S54


----------



## RavynX

I've been very impressed with Sony in this area.


----------



## ageha




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RavynX* /forum/post/15540029
> 
> 
> I've been very impressed with Sony in this area.



May I ask why? I thought Sony current generation of DVD players don't offer 576i/480i support over HDMI.


----------



## Rgb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greeno* /forum/post/15244894
> 
> 
> LG DN898 via HDMI (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i (1080p not tested) clips BTB and WTW.
> 
> Philips 59xx via HDMI also clips BTB and WTW.
> 
> 
> Note: BTB = blacker than black, WTW = whiter than white.



Anyone know if the Pioneer DV-410V clips BTB/WTW?


----------



## ageha




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rgb* /forum/post/15976997
> 
> 
> Anyone know if the Pioneer DV-410V clips BTB/WTW?



It clips either blacks or whites. I can't remember anymore. To get no clipping at all you have to apply a custom/hacked firmware.


----------



## Rgb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ageha* /forum/post/15978445
> 
> 
> It clips either blacks or whites. I can't remember anymore. To get no clipping at all you have to apply a custom/hacked firmware.



Thanks.


I just checked my "new" (bought as refurb from overstock.com) Panasonic DMR-EZ485VK VHS/DVD recorder, and it can output 480i over HDMI from the DVD player. I got it for $190 shipped at overstock. Yeah, yeah, it's got bugs like most set top DVD recorder/DVR's, but it appears well built and the VHS deck appears better quality than most ~$100 VHS decks you can find now. It outputs 480i over HDMI from the ATSC/QAM tuner and even the VHS deck!


I bought it to make it easier to convert old analog cable VHS recordings to DVD for the wife.


I don't know if it clips BTB/WTW. What is the easiest/quickest way to check? Avia? DVE? Just look for missing bars in the gray scale pattern?


----------



## PooperScooper

Avia does not contain BTB (not sure about WTW). Use DVE or GetGray (AVS member disc).


larry


----------



## ValjeanPhantom

I own three MediaTek MT1389-based players. Their brightness settings range from -20 to +20. Their contrast settings range from -16 to +16. After reading manuals to the Onkyo DV-CP706, the Onkyo DV-SP406 and the Onkyo DV-SP506, I notice their video adjustments include only switchable black level, brightness, and sharpness (no contrast, tint, croma level, or gamma). This makes me think these Onkyos do not use the MediaTek. Can anyone prove me right or wrong?


----------



## Nixterdemus

With my Panasonic 50X1 being 720P and myself having a collection of standard DVDs coming out of the one for a fin tub would it make any sense to purchase anything other than a entry model? I'm not sure what is available at this time.


The standard DVD may well be dead but, I'm not interested in replacing mine w/blueray.


So, I'd like a DVD that will take advantage of a mail order HDMI cable w/o providing me more than my needs require. I wish to take advantage of what the panny offers through an equal quality entry level DVD.


I've tried some research here however, the volume of material is a tad overwhelming and for the most part geared to the higher end products.


Thanks...


----------



## lindseyparker

I would like to say Pioneer Elite 79avi and Pioneer Elite 59avi both are good. I Like to favour a bit more to the Elite79.I think no one can exceed the Elite79's video quality. The Elite79 will play amazing anything you through at it without noise.


----------



## neilkevins

Hi..

Good information regarding 480i players over DVI-D...


----------



## Kaelyn29

Thanks for your sharing, But I still use Sony DVP-NS975V


----------



## jamesmartyn

hi there....


I have a Pioneer Dv-400V-K and am going HDMI out into the DVI-D port of a panasonic projector. The pioneer does not support the type of cable connection and will only allow me a 480P output on the projector. The projector, a PT-DW5100U, is capable of supporting 1080P input.....


----------



## TiminMem




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Robonaut* /forum/post/6678737
> 
> 
> Hidef players:
> 
> 
> Sony BDP-S1
> 
> Pioneer BDP-HD1
> 
> Toshiba HD-A2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [I added list here and left the other entries for "historical purposes". The OP or myself can edit the list when needed. Post additions below....larry]



The Insignia NSBRDVD with netflix streaming outputs 480i via HDMI according to the manual. That is interesting with the Netflix stream. I wonder if this would make a decent straight DVD/Netflix player for the base level scalar in my Onkyo 886?


----------



## EJ

I have a Toshiba A-2 HD DVD player that I see can output 480i over HDMI. I would like to connect it to my new Denon 2310CI receiver with the Anchor Bay chip to be able to upconvert SD DVDs to 1080p/24Hz.


Has anyone used a combo similar to this? I know it's the same chip as used in the DVDO Edge, but with many functions not activated. Just curious.

thanks!

ej


----------



## AVfile




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lindseyparker* /forum/post/17112933
> 
> 
> I would like to say Pioneer Elite 79avi and Pioneer Elite 59avi both are good. I Like to favour a bit more to the Elite79.I think no one can exceed the Elite79’s video quality. The Elite79 will play amazing anything you through at it without noise.



Too bad the 79AVi failed most of the Secrets benchmark tests










Was there a firmware fix?


I have 59AVi which scored much better, but won't handshake with my Anthem


----------



## liveoutloud

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I am having trouble with my dvd player not keeping up with bit rates... Anyone have a suggestion for the dvd player that can run the highest bit rate on the market?


----------



## Animephile




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AVfile* /forum/post/20212548
> 
> 
> Too bad the 79AVi failed most of the Secrets benchmark tests



Um, isn't the point of 480i over HDMI so that you can _avoid_ the player doing any processing? Consequently, you can just ignore anything about cadence detection and deinterlacing performance. Just try to find a player that's responsive, has good playback controls, and bitstreams all audio formats over HDMI.


----------



## Animephile

Hey, it seems like the Toshiba BDX2150 has an option to configure HDMI for 480i. At least, according to the manual:

http://cdgenp01.csd.toshiba.com/cont...BDX21KU_OM.pdf 


Can anyone confirm this about it or other Toshiba players in that series?


----------



## Animephile




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Animephile* /forum/post/21256013
> 
> 
> Hey, it seems like the Toshiba BDX2150 has an option to configure HDMI for 480i. At least, according to the manual:
> 
> http://cdgenp01.csd.toshiba.com/cont...BDX21KU_OM.pdf
> 
> 
> Can anyone confirm this about it or other Toshiba players in that series?



I got a slightly older Toshiba player (BDX1200) that does have a 480i output mode. My video processor confirmed that it was indeed 480i.


At the same time, I ordered a JVC XV-N680B DVD player. I also confirmed that I was able to set its output to 480i. Since this player has been discontinued, I was only able to find one that had a multi-region hack. When I tried a PAL disc, the output was still limited to NTSC resolution - I could not get it to output 525i @ 50 fps, for instance.


----------



## uderman

Which is the best DVD player with 480i over HDMI?


Its only purpose going to be DVD transport. I will run 480i over HDMI(preferred 4:2:2) into algolith mosquito hdmi video noise reducer then Crystalio II video processor to de-interlace and upscale to 1080p via its Gennum VXP.


Below is what I am looking for


480i over HDMI (YUV4:2:2)

Pal/NTSC playback ( conversion is NOT needed)

All region playback

CUE free




Pioneer DV-420 and Oppo DV-980 seems to fit above description. I can buy the pioneer brand new still. Do I really need oppo over pioneer?


----------



## AVfile

Does it have to be a DVD player? Oppo BDP-83 is good and plays everything.


----------



## uderman

Algolith doesnt pass 1080p. Thats why it has to be a dvd player.


----------



## AVfile

 http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/oppo-dv-983h-scores-the-first-perfect-100-in-the-secrets-dvd-player-benchmark-844027.htm


----------



## uderman

983 will not do 480i over hdmi. Only 980 does.


----------



## Big C

I can think of a few Pioneer players not mensioned in this thread that output 480i via HDMI. In 2006, North America had the Elite DV-46AV while the rest of the world had the DV-696AV. In 2007, North America had the Elite DV-48AV and Elite DV-58AV while the rest of the world had the DV-600AV and DV-LX50 (as known as the DV-800AV in Japan). In 2008, North America had the Elite DV-49AV while the rest of the world had the DV-610AV. I believe all these players used the MediaTek MT1389EXE, one of the best CPUs for this kind of device. All of these players were capable of 480i and DSD via HDMI--perfect SD transports! I own the Elite DV-58AV and Elite DV-49AV. I'll admit that Blu-ray with its 1080p/24Hz and lossless audio codecs is the best way to watch a movie. However, the features, functionality, speed, responsiveness, wide file compatibility, and load time of these Pioneer DVD players are something that I'll never forget. As I am posting this, I am now considering keeping those DVDs I bought Blu-ray editions of. While I prefer the picture and sound quality of Blu-ray, it's as if the functionality of watching DVD titles in these players is so enjoyable that it's outweighing the quality of Blu-ray.


----------



## rdickson12

Didnt know people are still using DVD players


----------

