# craig john's theater



## craig john

Updated on 8-13-2022 to show the current state of the theater:

In 2009, I upgraded my speaker system with a full set of Triad speakers. The fronts are Platinum LCR's with a Platinum CC:










The deep red burgundy drapes in this pic were hand-made by my wife. 

I bought these speakers "used" and the set came with the horizontal CC. Even though it is a horizontal CC, it uses the same vertical MTM driver array as the L/R's. It also uses the exact same drivers as the L/R's. The only significant different is the lateral placement of the woofers. I would have preferred a 3rd identical LCR speaker, but the set came this way, and the timbre-match between the 3 speakers is so good that I feel no need to replace the CC with a 3rd LCR. Please note that all 3 tweeters are at exactly the same height, which is exactly my seated ear height, and which further enhances the timbre-match. 

CC:









The stands were custom built by a good friend and forum member, @DMark1. I helped, but my woodworking skills pale to insignificance compared to Dennis'. Dennis has a side business building drum kits. He has honed his wood working skills by making some beautiful drums kits. Markley Custom Drums He's also a professional drummer and percussionist, so he has a great ear for music and has helped me significantly in fine tuning my system.

The stands have 1.5" thick plinths with columns supporting the speakers. The columns are 1 layer of 3/4", 9-ply plywood with an inner layer of 3/4" MDF. The two layers are adhered with Green Glue and the CC column is additionally lined with No-Rez. All this was done to reduce resonance in the columns. (Doing the knuckle rap test shows that the efforts were successful. The columns are very dead.) They were painted with the original Triad factory paint used on my speakers. We bought the paint directly from Triad and got the application instructions directly from the lead "paint guy" at Triad. Dennis has a spray booth in his drum shop, and he applied the paint there. The final coat is a textured "spatter" coat that required some specific painting skills. Fortunately, Dennis has them. Here is a pic of the CC stand:










As you can see, the paint is a perfect match. What's even more amazing is how good the texture match turned out.










Needless to say, I am extremely happy with how they compliment the speakers!

I also added Triad surrounds. I used the Silver Monitors because they use the same mid-woofers as the LCR's, but 6.5" instead of 5.25"), and a tweeter that is almost exactly the same as the Platinum's but without the dispersion lens. I use 4 Silver Monitors placed as Wides and Sides. The Wides are supposed to be at 60 degrees to the listening position, but as you will see in the pic below, I couldn't quite get them that wide. Due to wall constraints, they ended up at about 50 degrees. They still work quite well there. Here is a pic of the right Wide:










I have 3 Submersive HP's for subwoofer duties. They are placed somewhat randomly around the room and EQ'd with Audyssey XT32. Here is a pic of the right, front Submersive HP:










In addition to the Submersive on the right side of the CC, there is a 2nd Submersive on the left wall beneath the left Wide. The 3rd Submersive is on the left side wall behind the LP at about 4/5 of the long dimension of the room. About a year ago, I replaced the amps in the subs with the redesigned amps from Seaton Sound. They have more control and flexibility than the origianal amps. After gain-matching the 3 subs, optimizing their Delay settings, EQ'ing them with Audyssey XT32, and adjusting the target curve to my preference in Audyssey:X, I get the following frequency response and max output/compression:










That is just the subs, (no speakers, with an 80 Hz crossover.) That is 115 dB at 10 Hz with no compression.

Here is the in-room decay of the subs:










... and here is a 1/3 Octave RTA of the full bandwidth of the system:










I also added Atmos to my system in 2020. I used RSL C34e's for the speakers, 4 speakers in a Top Fronts and Top Rears configuration. These are unenclosed in-ceiling seakers with 15 degree angled baffles and an additional 15 degrees of tweeter tilt adjustment. I had custom-built backboxes made that are exactly 2'x2' squares and drop right into my ceiling gridwork. The speakers are rotated in the boxes to aim them as closely as possible at the Primary LP: 











The rest of my audio equipment consists of:

Pre/Pro:
Marantz AV 8805

Power Amps:
Sanway Clone Amp, 2,400 wpc x 2, for L & R
Earthquake Cinemova Grande BR7, 650 wpc @ 4 Ohms x 7, for CC, Wides, Sides and Rears
Earthquake Cinenova Grand 5, 650 wpc @ 4 Ohms x 5 for 4 Overheads

Source Devices:
Roku 4k Ultra
Apple TV 4K
Oppo BDP UDP 205

Tactile Motion Actuators:
Crowson Technology TES 100 Shadow 8 Dual Motion Actuator System, (2 transducers)
Crowson Technology D-501 Tactile Mtion Amplifier

Here are pics of the audio equipment:
















... and the Middle Atlantic Rack that holds everything:











Video System:
JVC RS2000 4K Projector with HDR and Theater Optimzer
SeymourAV CenterStage UF, 115" Diagonal, 2.35, motorized, retractable, Acoustically Transparent, (AT), screen with Side Masking
Panamorph DCR Palladin Anamorphic Lens
DataColor SpyderX meter for use with JVC AutoCal

Here is a pic of the Seymour AT screen deployed:









(This pic shows the L/R speakers outside the screen borders. I have since moved them to just inside the screen borders. This places them at 23 degrees from the LP, which is inside the recommend 22 to 30 degrees.)

Here is the screen with the 16x9 Side Mask's deployed:










(Screen shots are available here:








craig john's theater


Craig, Have you considered changing out your Marantz pre-pro with a different one? If you get a processor with even a slightly higher channel count, you can have your front wides as well as all the other speakers active. Just make sure that the unit can be upgraded to DTS: X Pro whenever...




www.avsforum.com





Acoustic Treatments:
The room is acoustically treated, with 12" thick acoustic cotton over fiberglass bass traps in the front corners, (they're behind the burgundy drapes.) The front wall is treated with 2" of acoustical cotton. The side walls past the first reflection points are treated with 6" of acoustic cotton. All the absorption is covered by the deep burgundy velvet drapes, hand-made by my wife.

The ceiling is a dropped acoustical ceiling using CaPaul Open Plan 1" thick tiles with a black nubby finish. Above the dropped ceiling, the overhead joist spaces are stuffed with fiberglass insulation, making the entire ceiling a large bass trap/broadband absorber. The floor is concrete with dark brown carpet over the thickest pad available. With all the dark surfaces, and all the acoustic absorption in the front of the room, when the lights go out and the movie starts to play, the front of the room is one big black hole for both light and sound.

There are other acoustical treatments placed around the room to reduce slap echo. Here is a pic of one of them:









The seating is a 4-chair row of Acoustic Innovations Traditional seats with power recline, heating and vibration. configured as in this pic:










The seats are a Burgundy leather. (The pic makes them look lighter than they actually are.) They sit on an 8" riser. This gets my eyes to 1/3 screen height, my ears to tweeter height. The seats are shifted to the left so the 2nd seat from the left is directly the sweet spot, (guess who's seat that is!) The Crowson transducers are placed with two seats straddling each transducer, allowing all 4 seats and the riser to have tactile motion with with deep bass. 

Summary:
I have been an HT enthusiast for about 35 years. I built my first "HT" in 1987, (before the term "Home Theater" was even in use). That theater used a 50" Pioneer RPTV. At the time a 50" TV was unheard of, and my "HT" had a huge "WOW Factor." Soon after, I acquired a LaserDisc player... and the rest is history.  I have been through quite few different systems in the ensuing years. However, the above system is far and away the best I've ever had in my HT. I have a few things to do yet, but I am close to the point that my "upgradeitits" is almost cured.  (Yeah right, she said!) 

In the meantime, I am thoroughly enjoying my system!😄

Thanks for reading.

Craig

Last edited on 8-13-2022


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## Roger That




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## Frohlich

Fantastic set-up. I am sure it looks and sounds unreal. Well done.


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## Bunga99









*INCREDIBLE* Set Up Craig!










Awesome Job!


PS. there's a few pics I cant see like the Equipment rack and Seats. Wonder if its an issue on my end.


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## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/20732157
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *INCREDIBLE* Set Up Craig!
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Awesome Job!
> 
> 
> PS. there's a few pics I cant see like the Equipment rack and Seats. Wonder if its an issue on my end.



Thanks Claude, Frolich and Roger That!


I have reattached the pic's of the equipment rack and the seats. Please let me know if you can see them. Are there any others not showing up?


Craig


PS. Claude, I'm following your thread and will be interested to hear what you think of the JTR's. Frolich and Roger, I have checked your threads as well. Awesome theaters guys!


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## Bunga99

I can see the Equipment Rack and the seats. They look great BTW!


The only one I cant see now is this:



> Quote:
> There are other acoustical treatments placed around the room to reduce slap echo. Here is a pic of one of them:


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## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/20732494
> 
> 
> I can see the Equipment Rack and the seats. They look great BTW!
> 
> 
> The only one I cant see now is this:



I re-attached that one too. I'm not sure why they didn't attach to begin with, but they show at the bottom of the post now, and they didn't before.










Thanks!


Craig


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## Bunga99

I can see that one now too. It looks great as well - I really like the design and that it matches the curtains in the front of the room.


How far back do you sit from that screen?


Something about this pic gives me goose bumps!
















Not sure if its the Platinum Triads, 120inch AT screen, the SubMersiveS or just the combo of everything...Either way, I love it!










PS. The stands look Fantastic!


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## g_bartman

Wow cj, very nice indeed. Well planned, equipped and exicuted. Looks like someone did their homework. Do you do any music listening on this system or is it strictly ht?


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## hometheatergeek

Good Morning Craig,


I'm glad to see you have started a thread about your wonderful HT room.







Everything looks great and from what I know about you that system as been tweaked to the MAX.







Can you decribe how the wide speakers enhance the overall soundstage?


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## craig john

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Bunga99* 
How far back do you sit from that screen?
About 11 ft. It's *immersive*!









Quote:

Originally Posted by *Bunga99* 
Something about this pic gives me goose bumps!
















Not sure if its the Platinum Triads, 120inch AT screen, the SubMersiveS or just the combo of everything...Either way, I love it!
Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Bunga99* 
PS. The stands look Fantastic!
I'll pass that along to DMark1. He deserves the credit for 'em.


Craig


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## craig john

Quote:

Originally Posted by *g_bartman* 
Wow cj, very nice indeed. Well planned, equipped and exicuted. Looks like someone did their homework. Do you do any music listening on this system or is it strictly ht?
Thanks! I listen to a *lot* of music on my system, both multi-channel music and 2-channel. It's a terrific music system as well as a great HT.


Craig


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## Nismyst

Nice setup! I'm jealous.


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## craig john

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hometheatergeek* 
Good Morning Craig,


I'm glad to see you have started a thread about your wonderful HT room.







Everything looks great and from what I know about you that system as been tweaked to the MAX.







Can you decribe how the wide speakers enhance the overall soundstage?
Thanks htg! Good to hear from you!


The Wides can add a level of immersiveness I've never experienced before. They can make you feel like you're in a 3D hologram of sound with a very cohesive front, side and rear surround effect. They can make you feel like you're in the *middle* of the soundfield, which is something no 2-channel system can do, and it's better than a 5.1, or even a 7.1 with rear surrounds, can do.


Note that I said "can." I said that because they don't always do that. When they do it, it's phenomenal. However, they can also cause the imaging to become "unfocused." It may be that the less focused imaging is more "real", but it's not what I'm used to.


Because of this, I don't use it at all for 2-channel listening. Also, in order to use it for 2-channel, you need to use PLIIx or DTS Neo before you can add DSX. The resultant sound is too "processed" for me. It sounds kind of fake. For MC music, it's definitely beneficial on some content... not so much on others. For movies, it generally excellent. In fact, there have been moments where it's jaw dropping.


Bottom line, I'm keeping them, but I don't use them for everything.


Do you still have those Forte's? I loved those speakers!!! My son still has them so I get to visit them occasionally.










Craig


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## craig john

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Nismyst* 
Nice setup! I'm jealous.


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## Roger Dressler

Very nice setup, Craig. A friend has the Triad Golds and they kick like crazy. I can't even imagine what the Platinums can do.










> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/20736187
> 
> 
> Also, in order to use it for 2-channel, you need to use PLIIx or DTS Neo before you can add DSX. The resultant sound is too "processed" for me. It sounds kind of fake.



I found when using DSX with 2-ch sources and PLIIx Music mode, that would override my Center Width setting (usually the default #3), and force it to 0, so all the vocals come from the center speaker. This also somewhat collapses the stereo spread. This is done so tat DSX will tap the L/R channels with minimal vocals in them, so as to avoid making them too fuzzy. The 5.1 music I tried has vocals in L/C/R so that was not a happy result, either.



> Quote:
> For movies, it generally excellent. In fact, there have been moments where it's jaw dropping.



Any particular movies/scenes that you recall?


I found some passages in Ratatouille that created extended L/R pans, but I did not hear any soundfield difference.


Where are your surrounds positioned?


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## Franin

Hi Craig a fantastic system. I love the choice of speakers and subs.I bet it sounds awesome


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## MIkeDuke

Craig, glad to see this on here. Those chairs look sweet. I hope I still have an invitation to check it out







. Again, one bad ass system that makes me want to try and make mine sound as good as it can. With your help, I am certainly there. Thanks for your help the other day with the amp.


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## craig john

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Franin* 
Hi Craig a fantastic system. I love the choice of speakers and subs.I bet it sounds awesome








Hi Frank,


Thanks for the kind words. Coming from you, and knowing what a fantastic theater you have makes this high praise indeed.


Craig


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## craig john

Quote:

Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* 
Craig, glad to see this on here. Those chairs look sweet. I hope I still have an invitation to check it out







. Again, one bad ass system that makes me want to try and make mine sound as good as it can. With your help, I am certainly there. Thanks for your help the other day with the amp.
Hi Mike,


Thanks. As soon as I get the new seats, I'm planning to have you and few other forum members over. I'll let you know.


Craig


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## craig john

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* 
Very nice setup, Craig. A friend has the Triad Golds and they kick like crazy. I can't even imagine what the Platinums can do.









I found when using DSX with 2-ch sources and PLIIx Music mode, that would override my Center Width setting (usually the default #3), and force it to 0, so all the vocals come from the center speaker. This also somewhat collapses the stereo spread. This is done so tat DSX will tap the L/R channels with minimal vocals in them, so as to avoid making them too fuzzy. The 5.1 music I tried has vocals in L/C/R so that was not a happy result, either.
Thanks Roger. I have been following your posts on the Audyssey thread. Let's take the DSX discussion back there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* 
Any particular movies/scenes that you recall?


I found some passages in Ratatouille that created extended L/R pans, but I did not hear any soundfield difference.
King kong jungle scenes. Avatar jungle scenes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* 
Where are your surrounds positioned?
The sides are at 90 degrees and the rears at 140 degrees, just like the Dolby rec's.










Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by *craig john* 
Hi Mike,


Thanks. As soon as I get the new seats, I'm planning to have you and few other forum members over. I'll let you know.


Craig
Cool. Can't wait.


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## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/20747125
> 
> 
> Thanks Roger. I have been following your posts on the Audyssey thread. Let's take the DSX discussion back there.



Perfect.



> Quote:
> King kong jungle scenes. Avatar jungle scenes.



Key word, jungle. Got it.












> Quote:
> The sides are at 90 degrees and the rears at 140 degrees, just like the Dolby rec's.



Goot. Thanks.


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## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* /forum/post/20748005
> 
> 
> Key word, jungle. Got it.



I watched Sherlock Holmes last night with some guests. I gave up the primary LP and sat outside the sweet spot. The first half of the movie, I had the Wides off. I noticed that the side surrounds were out of balance, with the closer right surround being louder and more prominent than the left. When I turned on the DSX Wides, that completely changed and the surround field was more symmetrical, even sitting outside the sweet spot.


Just thought I would mention that.


Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Sherlock Holmes, is a good one for sure. I love the overall music and soundtrack in that one. Plus it does have dynamics







.


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## MIkeDuke

Craig, quick question. You said your screen was an AT 120" screen. That is obscene BTW







. The Plats are to either side of the screen. Obviously the center is behind the screen. You said you were thinking about a new projector and you are getting new seats that will go on a riser. In your space, could you adjust everything so that you can accommodate a larger screen that would extend past the right and left Plat's? Not that you have to. Your screen is pretty damn big as it is. I was just wondering if it _could_ be done that's all. Just for the total illusion feeling.


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## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20809304
> 
> 
> Craig, quick question. You said your screen was an AT 120" screen. That is obscene BTW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . The Plats are to either side of the screen. Obviously the center is behind the screen. You said you were thinking about a new projector and you are getting new seats that will go on a riser. In your space, could you adjust everything so that you can accommodate a larger screen that would extend past the right and left Plat's? Not that you have to. Your screen is pretty damn big as it is. I was just wondering if it _could_ be done that's all. Just for the total illusion feeling.



Hi Mike.


Yes, I could get a bigger screen and have it extend past the L/R Plat's. However, that gets to be a very big screen. At my 11' seating distance, 120" diagonal is already plenty big. My wife actually thinks the current screen is a little too big, but I think she's gotten used to it. To go bigger and get the speakers behind it, (without moving them), I would need to go to about 146" diagonal. That's a very big screen... too big for an 11" viewing distance.

















Also, I wouldn't want the bottom of the screen any lower, so the added 10" of screen height would have to go at the top. That would force the viewer to look up too much and cause some neck/eye strain.


I could also move the L/R speakers in so they are behind the current screen. Actually, when I first got them, that's were I placed them. However, with the Plat's outside the screen edges, the front soundstage is noticeably wider, and I like that better. It seems just right.


I'm pretty content with my screen right now. A new projector is definitely on the horizon though.










Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Got you. Yea 146" would be huge. But I think I have seen screens that big. That's just plain silly







. Your screen size is awesome to me. Personally, I don't think you need any bigger. You picture is crystal clear to me. I am sure that you will pick the best new projector also.


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## MIkeDuke

Where does the madness end. I just saw a theater in the $20,000 section that has a 170" wide screen. I don't know what that is diagonal. Plus I have seen another one that has a 176" screen. Now that *IS* just plain silly


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## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20813663
> 
> 
> Where does the madness end. I just saw a theater in the $20,000 section that has a 170" wide screen. I don't know what that is diagonal. Plus I have seen another one that has a 176" screen. Now that *IS* just plain silly



Actually, in a larger theater, with a greater viewing distance, a larger screen makes sense. Here's a calculator that can help determine the optimal screen size for the viewing distance:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/v...alculator.html 

You'll see that I'm actually sitting a little too close to my screen... but I'm OK with that.










Craig


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## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/20813818
> 
> 
> Actually, in a larger theater, with a greater viewing distance, a larger screen makes sense. Here's a calculator that can help determine the optimal screen size for the viewing distance:
> http://myhometheater.homestead.com/v...alculator.html
> 
> You'll see that I'm actually sitting a little too close to my screen... but I'm OK with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Craig



I saw that as well. I know that I could go with a larger screen if I wanted to. But I think mine matches the room. So does yours. I guess being in my room and even my living room I tend to forget that are people that have really massive rooms out there. That's why I focused more on the audio portion of my system. Because that really does not take up "space" like a screen does. So my goal was to get the audio as good as it possibly could be.


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## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20813878
> 
> 
> I saw that as well. I know that I could go with a larger screen if I wanted to. But I think mine matches the room. So does yours. .



So does mine Mike thought with mine I couldnt go any bigger if I wanted to I think its perfect at the size it is. I wish I bought a screen like craig where im able to put the speakers behind the screen, thats a big plus in my book.


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## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin* /forum/post/20819855
> 
> 
> So does mine Mike thought with mine I couldnt go any bigger if I wanted to I think its perfect at the size it is. I wish I bought a screen like craig where im able to put the speakers behind the screen, thats a big plus in my book.



PLEASE, 117" is Plenty big







. I would be happy with a 92in screen. That is what my friend has with a slightly older Sim2 projector and it looks great.


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## craig john

I think Frank is referring to the acoustic transparency of my screen. I will say that going AT was a *big* improvement. I previously had a 92" fixed, wall mounted, non-AT screen. This dictated that the CC be placed below it. Therefore I had a horizontal CC situated below the screen. I always noticed that the CC was too low. It was below the video image and voices didn't "lock up" perfectly with the on-screen image. With an AT screen, and the CC being placed directly *behind* the screen, the audio and the video lock up precisely. It may seem like a subtle change, but the improvement is significant.


Craig


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## MIkeDuke

My friend has a non AT screen and his screen is a non fixed retractable one that comes down from the ceiling. He freely admits that my audio is better but even with a non AT screen, and his center below it, it is still a very nice system. If I had my way and a room to do it right, I would hope that I could set something up where all the speakers are behind the screen. But AT would be it for me so at least I would have the center behind it. For now, I have to live with my KILLER 42in plasma







.

P.S I hope your chair experience is better than mine was. Looking forward to checking out you system again.


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## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/20833722
> 
> 
> I think Frank is referring to the acoustic transparency of my screen. I will say that going AT was a *big* improvement. I previously had a 92" fixed, wall mounted, non-AT screen. This dictated that the CC be placed below it. Therefore I had a horizontal CC situated below the screen. I always noticed that the CC was too low. It was below the video image and voices didn't "lock up" perfectly with the on-screen image. With an AT screen, and the CC being placed directly *behind* the screen, the audio and the video lock up precisely. It may seem like a subtle change, but the improvement is significant.
> 
> 
> Craig



That's correct Craig.

My room been treated originally by a HAA consultant helped a lot with the front stage imaging which is quite good to be honest but I believe and know that speakers behind the screen will show a significant improvement. Unfortunately due to my room size it does make it hard( wont say it cant happen ) but I will look at it one day.


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## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20832612
> 
> 
> I would be happy with a 92in screen. That is what my friend has with a slightly older Sim2 projector and it looks great.



I used to that also before I went Scope A Sim Domino D35 and Stewart 16:9 Studio tech 130.


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## MIkeDuke

Craig, if I remember correctly, you had a couch to sit on right? When you get the new chairs, will you still keep the couch as well? You said you got a 4 seat row. I can imagine that the were not cheap. Given what my Lazy Boy chairs were and what the ones I was planning on getting would have cost me. Any plans in the future of getting a second row at some point?


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## Don the A/V Dude

That is the nicest screen calculator I've ever seen!


The system looks phenomenal Craig, great work- and thank you for turning me on to AVS Forum!


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## craig john

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don the A/V Dude* 
That is the nicest screen calculator I've ever seen!


The system looks phenomenal Craig, great work- and thank you for turning me on to AVS Forum!
Hi Don! Welcome to the forum. We'll have to get you and your wife over here soon. In the meantime, enjoy the forum. I'm sure that with your background and knowledge, you'll be a great asset to the forum. Be careful though... it can be addicting!










Craig


PS. Don, be sure to add your website in your sig. and in your profile.


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## Roger Dressler

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don the A/V Dude* 
That is the nicest screen calculator I've ever seen!
The calculator works nice, but the statement >>Recommended THX viewing distance (36 degree viewing angle)


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## craig john

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler* 
The calculator works nice, but the statement >>Recommended THX viewing distance (36 degree viewing angle)


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## FOH

Craig,



> Quote:
> Be careful though... it can be addicting!

















...I believe you're right..





I expressed it before, but love the system progression. You have a wonderful demeanor to your contributions, your tech savvy is solid, yet you possess a very down to earth posting style,...and that's refreshing.



Q; what is your _most needed tended to_ acoustic issue,..or are you right where you want to be?


Q; wrt viewing angle, I'm relatively weak on the visual side of HT (nor is the the ideal place), however wouldn't there be a singular ideal distance for a rez/screen size combo? Any farther and rez is wasted, any closer and rez elements can be seen.


Q; also, what's the most demanding material, ie., the most demanding single scene on your sub system?


Q; attending Cedia?


Thanks


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## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/20862292
> 
> 
> Craig,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...I believe you're right..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I expressed it before, but love the system progression. You have a wonderful demeanor to your contributions, your tech savvy is solid, yet you possess a very down to earth posting style,...and that's refreshing.



Thanks, FOH. I've learned a lot from contributors like yourself over the years.












> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/20862292
> 
> 
> Q; what is your _most needed tended to_ acoustic issue,..or are you right where you want to be?



I would like to add some diffusion. However, most diffusion panels are ugly and expensive. They're also somewhat complex to DIY. I don't feel a pressing *need* to do this, but I think it may have some benefit.


OTOH, if I could start over again... there's a lot of changes I would make, starting with a wall to enclose the room, and make it symmetrical and rectangular. Then I would take great pains with sound *isolation* which I have none of ATM.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/20862292
> 
> 
> Q; wrt viewing angle, I'm relatively weak on the visual side of HT (nor is the the ideal place), however wouldn't there be a singular ideal distance for a rez/screen size combo? Any farther and rez is wasted, any closer and rez elements can be seen.



Good point, and this was much more important with older 720p projectors, where screen door effect was more obvious. With 1080P projectors, this is less of a problem, and viewing distances can be closer without having to view visible projector artifacts. However, some screens have heir own artifacts, (sparklies, hot spots, etc.), and closer viewing distances can make those worse. My AT screen has a woven fabric structure. If I get too close to the screen, I can start to the weave. However, at my 11' viewing distance, and with my getting older eyesight,







I can't see the weave at all when viewing content.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/20862292
> 
> 
> Q; also, what's the most demanding material, ie., the most demanding single scene on your sub system?



Terminator Salvation gives it a workout, as does Tron, The Dark Knight, War of the Worlds, Master and Commander, Ironman and Flight of the Phoenix. However, my all time favorite scenes to use for demo use are:


King Kong, Bronto stampede and triple T-Rexx/KK battle

Avatar, First Flight scene

Alice In Wonderland, most any scene

All of these movies have rich saturated colors and excellent surround tracks. They have some good, but not great bass scenes, but the overall experiences shows off the whole system.


And the last piece I use for every demo I do:

Eagles, Farewell 1 Tour on HD-DVD. This was shot on 1080P/60 video cameras, so the PQ is stunning. The soundtrack is the best recording I've ever heard on any concert DVD/BluRay/HD DVD. And I grew up with the music and know every note of every song, as does virtually everyone else. Every time I end a demo with that concert, my guests always leave with a huge smile. In fact, that concert is the only reason I keep my HD-DVD player hooked up. I wish it would come out on BluRay.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/20862292
> 
> 
> Q; attending Cedia?



Unfortunately not this year. I am on-call at the hospital and can't get anyone to cover for me. I would really like to go to be able to lay eyes on the new batch of projectors. Just not happenin'.










Are you attending?


Craig


----------



## Vinculum

Hi Craig,


I noticed there is no center seat in your new seating. Does this mean the "sweet spot" is no longer a major influence? Perhaps the seating will be offset in your room? I bet in leather they will look and feel fantastic!


Offtopic, Have you heard the new Danley loudspeakers at Lambeau field yet? I was curious if you, as a spectator, could notice the difference from the old system? The loudspeaker system is comprised of 17 GH60 Genesis Horns, 14 TH118 subwoofers, 20 SH100 downfills, and 56 SHmicro's in the luxury boxes. Wow!


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vinculum* /forum/post/20864892
> 
> 
> Hi Craig,
> 
> 
> I noticed there is no center seat in your new seating. Does this mean the "sweet spot" is no longer a major influence? Perhaps the seating will be offset in your room? I bet in leather they will look and feel fantastic!



I did not want to be the first to ask this question but I was thinking the same thing. Which seat do you predict to be the "sweet spot" After gettibg chairs nyself that allow me to sit in the sweet spot, I understand how important it is. Can't wait for you to get them. I will also be in touch so we can work out a time for you to check out my new chairs.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vinculum* /forum/post/20864892
> 
> 
> Hi Craig,
> 
> 
> I noticed there is no center seat in your new seating. Does this mean the "sweet spot" is no longer a major influence? Perhaps the seating will be offset in your room? I bet in leather they will look and feel fantastic!



Hi Scott,


Good pickup on the "sweet spot" issue. However, I specifically chose those seats because I could configure them such that the second seat from the left could be placed *exactly* in the sweet spot. This will place the console off center and the other primary seat to the right of the console a little further off axis of the sweet spot. But *my* seat will be perfectly centered on the screen and the CC, and equidistant from the L/R's. I wouldn't have it any other way. The 4th seat, all the way right, will be outside the right speaker plane, but that's kind of a "throw away" seat anyway. I'll sit in it when I have guests over, and will (temporarily) give up the sweet spot. In fact, the next time you're over, I'll sit there and make sure YOU get the sweet spot.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vinculum* /forum/post/20864892
> 
> 
> Offtopic, Have you heard the new Danley loudspeakers at Lambeau field yet? I was curious if you, as a spectator, could notice the difference from the old system? The loudspeaker system is comprised of 17 GH60 Genesis Horns, 14 TH118 subwoofers, 20 SH100 downfills, and 56 SHmicro's in the luxury boxes. Wow!



I haven't been to Lambeau in a few years. I did follow the AV upgrade they did. From what I understand, it's a HUGE improvement. The old system was pretty antiquated.


Here's a video:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=2051257375139 


Here's what they're planning to do next:











I'm gonna hafta schedule a trip to Lambeau.










Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/20867155
> 
> 
> I did not want to be the first to ask this question but I was thinking the same thing. Which seat do you predict to be the "sweet spot" After gettibg chairs nyself that allow me to sit in the sweet spot, I understand how important it is. Can't wait for you to get them. I will also be in touch so we can work out a time for you to check out my new chairs.



Yes, we both understand the importance of finding the "sweet spot." (See above.)










Craig


----------



## Vinculum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/20867609
> 
> 
> In fact, the next time you're over, I'll sit there and make sure YOU get the sweet spot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



Now there's something I'll be looking forward to!


RE: Lambeau Field, as usual, you're on top of it!


----------



## MIkeDuke

That's pretty cool that you have the ability to configure the chairs a bit so you can sit right in the sweet spot. They do look fantastic BTW. I think I got mine as close as I could. I will give you and Dennis that chair of course when you guys come over. I will interested in hearing your thoughts about where they are.


----------



## RMS Hickock

Craig


VERY extensive & nicely executed system. You've done "the work" many times over, your dedication/pa$$ion is huge.

My compliments. You've every right to be proud and I laud your statesmanship and diplomacy as well.


Thanks


Sincerely


Dan in Bothell Wa. ( aka. RMS Hickock)


----------



## Woodshed

I used to work for a Triad dealer and our distributor had the platinums set up in a theater with the Denon stack running them. They ran a Godsmack demo and man those speakers were insane dynamic. The wood finish was awful but those speakers could make your ears bleed with their dynamics and sheer spl capability.


I sold a few Triad systems and always loved their dynamics and installation flexibility.


The width channels are very interesting. You may have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but what type of processor are you using to "get" information to those channels?


----------



## craig john

I agree that the Triads with the "standard" finish are not the most beautiful speakers I've ever seen. However, Triad will custom-finish them in any finish you want.


The dynamics of these speaker is, as you say... "insane." Not that there's anything wrong with that!










I'm using an Integra DHC 80.2 pre/pro to provide the signal for the Wides. The system that synthesizes the Wides and/or Heights is called Audyssey DSX:
http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/audyssey-dsx 


Craig


----------



## Woodshed




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/20934987
> 
> 
> I agree that the Triads with the "standard" finish are not the most beautiful speakers I've ever seen. However, Triad will custom-finish them in any finish you want.
> 
> 
> The dynamics of these speaker is, as you say... "insane." Not that there's anything wrong with that!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm using an Integra DHC 80.2 pre/pro to provide the signal for the Wides. The system that synthesizes the Wides and/or Heights is called Audyssey DSX:
> http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/audyssey-dsx
> 
> 
> Craig



Yes, the black you have looks much nicer than the ones I saw.


Just curious, how do you determine whether to have the width cannels on before starting a movie? The DSX is also very interesting. I had never heard of it previously.


Also, would you assume that if the width channels were not timbre matched it may be distracting? (also just curious)


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Woodshed* /forum/post/20935967
> 
> 
> Yes, the black you have looks much nicer than the ones I saw.
> 
> 
> Just curious, how do you determine whether to have the width cannels on before starting a movie? The DSX is also very interesting. I had never heard of it previously.



I pretty much always start a movie in PLIIx DSX mode. Then, if I don't like the effect, I have the option to shut it off. I have never shut it off.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Woodshed* /forum/post/20935967
> 
> 
> Also, would you assume that if the width channels were not timbre matched it may be distracting? (also just curious)



The Triad Silver Monitors I use for wides and surrounds use the same drivers for the midrange and tweeters as the Platinums. They are as good a timbre match as is possible in the Triad line without getting more Platinums. I listen to a lot of multi-channel music and a good timbre match was very important to me when I selected my surrounds and wides. I would not personally recommend a poorly matched speaker for wides, or for surrounds for that matter.


Craig


----------



## craig john

Hmmmm.....

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/...yssey=nav|head 


^^^ That is surprising!


----------



## Vinculum

As the article suggests, they probably just need to do some real life fine tuning. All those screaming "water bags" could not be simulated!


----------



## White Noise

Very nice!


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/20951063
> 
> 
> Hmmmm.....
> 
> http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/...yssey=nav|head
> 
> 
> ^^^ That is surprising!



They'll get it worked out.


When Lucas Oil Stadium first opened, we had many complaints about the various sound systems. Too loud, too soft, mis-matched delays etc. It takes some time to sort those things out.


What people may not realize, is the extent and seriousness that many businesses, facilities take legitimate complaints. I spent a decade of my career at the RCA Dome. Then, after being involved in the design process, I essentially lived at the new Lucas Oil Stadium, in an oversight/acclimation capacity while it was under construction. After opening the facility, I was part of a weekly management team production meeting. In addition to covering all aspects of up-coming events, we addressed fans concerns complaints together, as a group. We took all complaints very seriously.


Now, Packers fans will love this. The Indy fans are great, but man they are soft....Our first home game where we opened the window, and opened the roof, we had scores of complaints about the SUN!







Yep, the sun,..sunburn, the sun obscuring vision, excessive heat from the sun,...no kidding,..it's bright and it's hot. Well, like all aspects, we took these complaints seriously. So from that day forward, or guest services staff had sunscreen available free, for anyone that needed it. We also saw to it that the media outlets warned attendees about the status of the roof; be it open or closed. For 20 plus years Colts fans went to games dressed for a climate controlled environment.


WRT Green Bay's system; Nothing changes the character of a large sound system more than 70,000 warm bodies with head-worn foam HF attenuators


----------



## craig john

"... screaming water bags..."


"...warm bodies with head-worn foam HF attenuators..."


Those are not very complimentary descriptions of fine, upstanding Packer fans.







 Still, when your team currently holds the trophy named after your highly distinguished head coach, everyone is going to take shots at ya. That's OK, we can take it.










FOH, thanks for your insights. I wasn't aware of your experience at this level. It certainly adds credence to your always-helpful contributions to the forum.


BTW, Packer fans could never be called "soft." If anything, they're the hardiest fans in the NFL. EVERY game is a sellout, no matter the weather at the "frozen tundra of Lambeau Field." In fact, if there is snow in the days leading up to a game, the Packers organization can count on volunteer fans to help clear the stands and the parking lots:







Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *White Noise* /forum/post/20979621
> 
> 
> Very nice!



Back on topic... Thank you!


----------



## DMark1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/20990606
> 
> 
> Packer fans could never be called "soft." If anything, they're the hardiest fans in the NFL. EVERY game is a sellout, no matter the weather at the "frozen tundra of Lambeau Field." In fact, if there is snow in the days leading up to a game, the Packers organization can count on volunteer fans to help clear the stands and the parking lots:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



Man, you'd think after all these years dealing with unpredictable snow and cold weather, that Green Bay would have figured out how to build a climate controlled stadium with a roof over it, like those soft Indianapolis idiots.










Or, maybe that's their "home field advantage"...


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> FOH, thanks for your insights. I wasn't aware of your experience at this level. It certainly adds credence to your always-helpful contributions to the forum.
> 
> 
> In fact, if there is snow in the days leading up to a game, the Packers organization can count on volunteer fans to help clear the stands and the parking lots:





I certainly appreciate the kind words. I want to make clear, I do not mix, nor am I a stagehand at Lucas Oil Stadium. My side of things was rooted in the electrical department at Convention Center/RCA Dome/Lucas Oil Stadium. We had dedicated stagehands that operated and mixed the house events.


My scope was everything electronic/electric. All incoming house power from 13,800v, down to low voltage control. All 1300 HD displays, from the armrests, elevators, to the 100" Panny plasma and the enormous $11 million HD Stadium bowl displays(97'x53). Get this, inside the mammoth re-play screens, they have tiny mobo fans,..like a few hundred per display,...and they're getting dirty







(We bought the service plan)... I was tasked with stage power for concerts, sports lighting and control. All automated control/dimmers of every light fixture in the facility (10's of thousands). I'd liaise with all network television electrical/electronic and signal routing needs (we built a superb, massive indoor/underground truck dock, where we park all network trucks, except sat up-link truck, which resides outside). I was one of only a handful that was trained to operate the roof. All aspects of the video head end (we'd gather many HD signals from every type of source imaginable, modulate them on our own in house cable RF distribution system).


It was the most incredibly enjoyable and rewarding job in the world. One day, 18 months or so ago, entirely out of the blue I had a medical situation/discovery, that left me unable to work any longer. So for now, I'm a stay at home dad, I take care of the kids and my wife of 25 years continues working.


As far as FOH engineering, I've been involved in live work since the early 80's. I dabbled in it as an avocation for years, then finally began full time in the 90's. Then slowly did less of it as I began working at the RCA Dome/convention Center in the late 90's. There simply wasn't time due to the long hours involved in live event work at the CC/RCA Dome.


Just wanted to clear that up. BTW, the main bowl PA, and all smaller PAs though-out the facility are all quite nice. The primary PA is an active Crown on-board powered/JBL line array center cluster, I believe there's 72 cabinets in the center cluster, with delayed cabs flown throughout the bowl. After the contractor finished and the system was real close, another several weeks were spent EQ'ing, aligning balancing the main system. It's actually got some decent bottom end, and can play extremely loudly and cleanly. Still today, it's the worlds largest HiQ networked JBL system. Here's the problem, the main cluster hangs out in the open under the open roof,.....no aspect of it is waterproof. There's amp rack and electronics flown up there and they would not spend the money to water tight this system! So, mgmt. is really gun shy about any rain, and having the roof open







Lovely


Thanks


btw;

Here was a concert set-up, with many house reduction curtains etc in place;










This, illustrates the un-weatherproofed line array cabinets, etc, in addition to the 72 center cabinets, there were many other line arrays delays (maybe 80 cabs or so) around for better coverage. Center cluster fed with 208v power, and fiber optic to the amp racks. Other delay arrays were remote powered.










It would've been a pleasure working toward this coming Super Bowl Sunday. It may not be as nice as what Jerry Jones built, but it is very nice. I really dig the retro "fieldhouse" styling. It's much bigger than the outside appearance suggests, as a significant portion is below grade. As is any state of the art facility, it is a technological tour-de-force,..and I really miss it.



Thanks and good luck


----------



## craig john

Great stuff, FOH! I'm about to watch the Sunday night game, Steelers at Colts at Lucas Oil Field. It's cool that I'm conversing with one of the guys involved in the design and application of that stadium.










Enjoy the game!


Packers 27 -- Bears 17!!!










Craig


----------



## craig john

The new seats arrive tomorrow!!! I'm stoked!










Craig


----------



## Bunga99

How do you like the new seats?


Got any pics of em?


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/21045727
> 
> 
> How do you like the new seats?
> 
> 
> Got any pics of em?



FedEx screwed up the delivery. They had the wrong zipcode. (Actually, it might have been Acoustic Innovations who screwed up the shipping info, but FedEx should have verified it when they called to schedule the delivery.)


Anyway, the delivery is rescheduled for Friday.










Craig


----------



## Bunga99

That kinda sucks but if you do get it tomorrow, it should make this weekend that much better!


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/21047675
> 
> 
> That kinda sucks but if you do get it tomorrow, it should make this weekend that much better!



Yeah, I probably wasn't going to get around to installing them until the weekend anyway. Still, I ordered them at the end of July and it's now early October. What ever happened to "instant gratification?"










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21047785
> 
> 
> Yeah, I probably wasn't going to get around to installing them until the weekend anyway. Still, I ordered them at the end of July and it's now early October. What ever happened to "instant gratification?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



Like I mentioned before, I feel your pain. But you will be so happy once they get installed







.


----------



## FOH

Good luck with the delivery. Did you get my PM?


Thanks


----------



## craig john

The chairs arrived today!





















They look awesome! I'll be installing them this weekend. First, I need to add an extension to my riser, then re-carpet the whole riser, then re-install my Crowson transducer... and THEN install the new chairs. I'll take pics along the way.


FOH, I got your PM. WOW! You hit on a lot of topics and there is lot's to respond to. I'll get to it after I get the chairs done. There are a lot of thoughts I want to share.


Craig


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21052225
> 
> 
> The chairs arrived today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They look awesome! I'll be installing them this weekend. First, I need to add an extension to my riser, then re-carpet the whole riser, then re-install my Crowson transducer... and THEN install the new chairs. I'll take pics along the way.
> 
> 
> FOH, I got your PM. WOW! You hit on a lot of topics and there is lot's to respond to. I'll get to it after I get the chairs done. There are a lot of thoughts I want to share.
> 
> 
> Craig



I'm glad the chairs arrived.


Take your time responding, I was uncertain as to it's delivery. I sent a PM recently, and the individual couldn't locate the message. Take your time, enjoy the weekend/chairs/football, etc.


Thanks


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21052225
> 
> 
> The chairs arrived today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They look awesome! I'll be installing them this weekend. First, I need to add an extension to my riser, then re-carpet the whole riser, then re-install my Crowson transducer... and THEN install the new chairs. I'll take pics along the way.
> 
> 
> FOH, I got your PM. WOW! You hit on a lot of topics and there is lot's to respond to. I'll get to it after I get the chairs done. There are a lot of thoughts I want to share.
> 
> 
> Craig



That's great Craig. I glad you got them. I can't wait to see some pics of them. But from the website I can tell they are top notch.


----------



## craig john

Well, a small delay...


The riser is reconfigured and I set the chairs on it and made sure everything worked, (power recline, heat and massage.) I then took the chairs apart so I could have the riser carpeted. The riser looks great. However, after looking closely at the construction of the chairs, I decided I needed a 2nd Crowson tactile actuator. I need one for each loveseat. So, I ordered the 2nd one today, along with more motion isolation pads. They should be here in 2 days. I'm going to wait until they get here to put the chairs back together. It's a fair amount of work, and I don't feel like doing it twice in 2 days.


For now, I have a bunch of pillows thrown on the riser. My tweeters are not at ear height, but I can live with that for a couple of days.
























Pics to follow...


Craig


----------



## DMark1

Craig, did the carpet installer make it over to your place today?


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DMark1* /forum/post/21067625
> 
> 
> Craig, did the carpet installer make it over to your place today?



See the post just above yours.










Craig


PS. Thanks for the help with the riser!!!


----------



## Fanaticalism

Hey Craig,


What made you go with the Triads over the Seatons?


----------



## MIkeDuke

A few more days won't hurt Craig







. I can't wait to finally see your new chairs and hopefully get out there to check your stellar system.

"power recline, heat and massage"

That is sweet. I hope you don't mind slumming when you come to my place and have no heat and have to recline the seat yourself







.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fanaticalism* /forum/post/21069328
> 
> 
> Hey Craig,
> 
> 
> What made you go with the Triads over the Seatons?



I got a good deal on a used set of Triad Platinums. Even though the MSRP of the Platinums is about 2X the price of the Seatons, I got them for less than the Catalysts.


Frankly, I love both speakers and could be happy with either one for a very long time.


Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/21070310
> 
> 
> A few more days won't hurt Craig
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I can't wait to finally see your new chairs and hopefully get out there to check your stellar system.
> 
> "power recline, heat and massage"
> 
> That is sweet. I hope you don't mind slumming when you come to my place and have no heat and have to recline the seat yourself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



I never mind "slumming" at your place.










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21071625
> 
> 
> I never mind "slumming" at your place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



Thanks. I try







. Is that projector you bought out yet or is it yet to be released. After the chairs I am guessing that is the next big install. Can't wait to see the chairs though.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Any news on the second Crown? I hope you get it soon so you can get the seats setup.


----------



## FOH

I'm really interested in reading your thoughts/impressions on the tactile transducer system, once they're up and running and optimized with the entire rig.


Good luck


----------



## benclement11




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger That* /forum/post/20731436



Indeed. I would do some unspeakable things to have this theater...unspeakable things.


----------



## benclement11




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/20867609
> 
> 
> Hi Scott,
> 
> 
> Good pickup on the "sweet spot" issue. However, I specifically chose those seats because I could configure them such that the second seat from the left could be placed *exactly* in the sweet spot. This will place the console off center and the other primary seat to the right of the console a little further off axis of the sweet spot. But *my* seat will be perfectly centered on the screen and the CC, and equidistant from the L/R's. I wouldn't have it any other way. The 4th seat, all the way right, will be outside the right speaker plane, but that's kind of a "throw away" seat anyway. I'll sit in it when I have guests over, and will (temporarily) give up the sweet spot. In fact, the next time you're over, I'll sit there and make sure YOU get the sweet spot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't been to Lambeau in a few years. I did follow the AV upgrade they did. From what I understand, it's a HUGE improvement. The old system was pretty antiquated.
> 
> 
> Here's a video:
> http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=2051257375139
> 
> 
> Here's what they're planning to do next:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm gonna hafta schedule a trip to Lambeau.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



Hopefully my company will win this job. I'm pretty certain that their current video displays are ours. Also, the Lucas Oil stadium video stuff is ours. I walked by it being built about everyday. Not trying to be a braggart, it's just fun seeing people talk about it. It's funny though...the one I always get asked about we didn't do. The Cowboys display is Mitsubishi.


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *benclement11* /forum/post/21081770
> 
> 
> Hopefully my company will win this job. I'm pretty certain that their current video displays are ours. Also, the Lucas Oil stadium video stuff is ours. I walked by it being built about everyday. Not trying to be a braggart, it's just fun seeing people talk about it. It's funny though...the one I always get asked about we didn't do. The Cowboys display is Mitsubishi.



When you say you walked by as they were being built,..._as in_,.. in the shop? Or, in Indianapolis?


You must work for DAK. Nice stuff, we (LOS)bought 2 primary displays, and about a thousand feet of ribbon board, then several other items as well. I worked on Mitsubishi screens at the RCA Dome, as they died a slow death it was really difficult keeping them going. I spent perhaps 4 hours a day rebuilding individual CRT modules,...just to keep it decent for each event. I drove a big rental truck to old Bush Stadium/St. Louis, inspected and subsequently bought all of their modules from them that I could, as they were literally tearing the place down. I bought them from the salvage company, like a big drug deal as we negotiated a price. Too funny







They didn't make them any longer, we searched all over the country for them.


As they would fail, I would oftentimes be inside the screen, repairing things, at some point during Colt's games.

----------


Back to Lambeau, I'd love to hear the Danley Genesis/etc. system at Green Bay or anywhere for that matter. Tom Danley is brilliant, and bringing his craft to applications such as that is a perfect marriage. Can anyone here attest to the quality/intelligibility of the Lambeau system? Craig, have you heard it? Know anyone that has?


What I find so refreshing, is the trend toward higher, and higher quality PA systems for fixed installations such as these. The systems are geared more for wide-bandwidth music playback than ever before. For Colt's games, the team hires a DJ to come and sit next to our house engineer, he plays specific tracks as per a Colt's executive's direction, who also sits right there.


The house guy has to get announcements, referee mic, and advertising copy thru the system. Then the Colts exec cues the DJ when to play what track,....and it's highly choreographed and typically identical each game. Very specific tracks are played during the pre-game warm up period. The energy builds and builds, culminating with a raise in level and Phil Collins'/In the Air Tonight,... as the team captains gather everyone for synchronized calisthenics. At that time, team GM Bill Polian, walks amoung the players, and shakes each team member's hand wishing them well. Same thing, same ritual,...every home game.


They do make changes at times, however not much, merely little tweeks here and there. A few years ago they changed from running out the tunnel/taking the field with Hell's Bells, to Won't Get Fooled Again. Often, they'd run behind this very elaborately tricked out Lucas Oil/Colt's chopper,...and the house sound guys would mic the exhaust, and mix it into the PA, and this is during the big cresendo of Won't Get Fooled Again.


Anyway, the house system is quite capable, and I'm sure the Danley system at Lambeau is too,...I'd love to hear it. There's one track they play between downs, that's got some real strong LF,...you can feel the bass during particular notes. I'm curious as to the LF at Green Bay,...any subs?


Now being able to have somewhat of a tactile element to the LF in essentially as large a cubic environment imaginable, is quite a task. But this is a wonderful trend amoung stadiums/arenas; moving away from merely public address, and toward high quality, wide bandwidth, large scale sound systems. Even the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as big a venue as it is, installed subwoofers for music playback, for their largest pit grandstand. Several years ago, they switched from nasty compression horns, to these great QSC 10" two ways, with 3" compression tweeters everywhere. I mean they bought several hundred, augmented the LF w/double 15" subs down the main straight. The FOH engineer is a friend of mine, and they've really stepped up their game quality wise. Here is a nice pic(click to enlarge), showing subs/mains on the front straight. I think they clearly needed tighter coverage MF/HF, but they opted for minimal visual impact to sightlines. Oh well, still decent.


So, whether it's Danley @ Lambeau, QSC @ Indianapolis Motor Speedway, or even your local arena, systems are getting better and better.


Speaking of systems getting better and better; Craig, with those Triad Platinums/Submersives, and tactile transducers,... it's most likely just like being there,...but much better










Also, I've been inquiring with every enthusiast I can, do you run your subs flat, hot, or with an eq curve emphasizing an area? I've seen your response graphs(superb), just curious in operation if you change things. Music, movies, any differences? I just bought a brand new Velo/SMS-1, to help facilitate some experiments. I really like the multiple EQ curve, high pass, etc., via remote @ the LP.


Have fun, and good luck with the chairs. You've got me considering a tactile transducer rig of some type. So I hope that all works out.


Thanks


----------



## benclement11




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21083749
> 
> 
> When you say you walked by as they were being built,..._as in_,.. in the shop? Or, in Indianapolis?
> 
> 
> You must work for DAK. Nice stuff, we (LOS)bought 2 primary displays, and about a thousand feet of ribbon board, then several other items as well. I worked on Mitsubishi screens at the RCA Dome, as they died a slow death it was really difficult keeping them going. I spent perhaps 4 hours a day rebuilding individual CRT modules,...just to keep it decent for each event. I drove a big rental truck to old Bush Stadium/St. Louis, inspected and subsequently bought all of their modules from them that I could, as they were literally tearing the place down. I bought them from the salvage company, like a big drug deal as we negotiated a price. Too funny
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They didn't make them any longer, we searched all over the country for them.
> 
> 
> As they would fail, I would oftentimes be inside the screen, repairing things, at some point during Colt's games.
> 
> ----------
> 
> 
> Back to Lambeau, I'd love to hear the Danley Genesis/etc. system at Green Bay or anywhere for that matter. Tom Danley is brilliant, and bringing his craft to applications such as that is a perfect marriage. Can anyone here attest to the quality/intelligibility of the Lambeau system? Craig, have you heard it? Know anyone that has?
> 
> 
> What I find so refreshing, is the trend toward higher, and higher quality PA systems for fixed installations such as these. The systems are geared more for wide-bandwidth music playback than ever before. For Colt's games, the team hires a DJ to come and sit next to our house engineer, he plays specific tracks as per a Colt's executive's direction, who also sits right there.
> 
> 
> The house guy has to get announcements, referee mic, and advertising copy thru the system. Then the Colts exec cues the DJ when to play what track,....and it's highly choreographed and typically identical each game. Very specific tracks are played during the pre-game warm up period. The energy builds and builds, culminating with a raise in level and Phil Collins'/In the Air Tonight,... as the team captains gather everyone for synchronized calisthenics. At that time, team GM Bill Polian, walks amoung the players, and shakes each team member's hand wishing them well. Same thing, same ritual,...every home game.
> 
> 
> They do make changes at times, however not much, merely little tweeks here and there. A few years ago they changed from running out the tunnel/taking the field with Hell's Bells, to Won't Get Fooled Again. Often, they'd run behind this very elaborately tricked out Lucas Oil/Colt's chopper,...and the house sound guys would mic the exhaust, and mix it into the PA, and this is during the big cresendo of Won't Get Fooled Again.
> 
> 
> Anyway, the house system is quite capable, and I'm sure the Danley system at Lambeau is too,...I'd love to hear it. There's one track they play between downs, that's got some real strong LF,...you can feel the bass during particular notes. I'm curious as to the LF at Green Bay,...any subs?
> 
> 
> Now being able to have somewhat of a tactile element to the LF in essentially as large a cubic environment imaginable, is quite a task. But this is a wonderful trend amoung stadiums/arenas; moving away from merely public address, and toward high quality, wide bandwidth, large scale sound systems. Even the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as big a venue as it is, installed subwoofers for music playback, for their largest pit grandstand. Several years ago, they switched from nasty compression horns, to these great QSC 10" two ways, with 3" compression tweeters everywhere. I mean they bought several hundred, augmented the LF w/double 15" subs down the main straight. The FOH engineer is a friend of mine, and they've really stepped up their game quality wise. Here is a nice pic(click to enlarge), showing subs/mains on the front straight. I think they clearly needed tighter coverage MF/HF, but they opted for minimal visual impact to sightlines. Oh well, still decent.
> 
> 
> So, whether it's Danley @ Lambeau, QSC @ Indianapolis Motor Speedway, or even your local arena, systems are getting better and better.
> 
> 
> Speaking of systems getting better and better; Craig, with those Triad Platinums/Submersives, and tactile transducers,... it's most likely just like being there,...but much better
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I've been inquiring with every enthusiast I can, do you run your subs flat, hot, or with an eq curve emphasizing an area? I've seen your response graphs(superb), just curious in operation if you change things. Music, movies, any differences? I just bought a brand new Velo/SMS-1, to help facilitate some experiments. I really like the multiple EQ curve, high pass, etc., via remote @ the LP.
> 
> 
> Have fun, and good luck with the chairs. You've got me considering a tactile transducer rig of some type. So I hope that all works out.
> 
> 
> Thanks



Yeah, I am a project coordinator at Daktronics. On my way up to my desk I walk by where they build all the stuff for large venues. I agree with the movement toward higher end audio systems. Daktronics offers sound. It is pretty good. We get high schools that buy what we call Sportsounds. There are def. more and more moving toward higher quality sound and not just pro teams.


----------



## craig john

I got the Crowson Tactile Effects System today. I will be installing it and setting up the chairs on Wednesday evening. Below are pics of the riser with the extension DMark1 and I built. The next pic is the carpeted riser. I used a slightly contrasting carpet for the top of the riser, but the same carpet as the floor for the "upright" sections of the riser. It blends into the floor very well.









*Riser with extension:*









*Carpeted Riser:*










I will need to attach the isolation feet to the bottom of the chairs.











Speaking to Randy Crowson at Crowson Technology, he suggested the following locations for the feet, (shown in red):











The actuator will be placed under the frame of chairs where the solid blue circle is shown. Two chairs will straddle one actuator. The two chairs are connected with the metal joiner circled in blue. They will both be shaken as one chair.


The way the Crowson actuator works, the top side of the actuator will shake the chairs. The bottom half of the actuator will contact and shake the riser.
http://crowsontech.com/go/crowsontec...opDefault.aspx 











The riser is built such that the joists are 2" x 4"'s, while the outer frame is 2" x 6"'s. The joists don't contact the floor; they are "suspended" above the floor. The top of the riser is 3/4" pressboard. Because of the suspended nature of the riser, it shakes quite well.


I think it's important to shake the riser as well as the seats. If you only shake the seats, and your feet are on the floor, and the floor isn't shaking, you don't get any tactile response through your feet. Feeling shaking in your body, but not in your feet is unnatural and I find it makes the effect a lot less believable. Shaking the riser shakes your feet and makes the whole effect much more natural and believable.


I will try to take pic's of the completed installation Wednesday night.


Craig


----------



## FOH

Nice, thanks for the details. I know nothing about this stuff, so I'm all ears/eyes. Have fun.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Great stuff Craig. I am sure the chairs will look and feel great once they are in place.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21094222
> 
> 
> Nice, thanks for the details. I know nothing about this stuff, so I'm all ears/eyes. Have fun.



Hi FOH,


Some background...


I have had a single Crowson actuator underneath my seats for years. I originally had it just on the floor, (carpet over concrete), without the riser. I could shake the seats, but I always noticed that the floor didn't shake, and that I got no sensation through my feet; and therefore I've always found the effect to be compromised. About 6 months ago, I built the riser to try to transmit some tactile sensation to my feet to make the experience more believable. It worked quite well, so I'm now extending it to the new riser and the new seats.


I have 2 friends who's HT's are on the 2nd floors of their homes. They are on "suspended" floors. They both get incredible tactile response from acoustic-mechanical coupling of the bass to their floors. The floors shake and transmit tactile response to your feet, but they also shake the seats and transmit tactile response to your body. It's an all-inclusive experience.







This is the effect I'm trying to emulate in my room. My HT is in the basement, on a concrete floor. Without the tactile actuator, I get ZERO tactile response, even with 3 Submersive HP's. It's simply impossible to shake concrete with acoustic-mechanical coupling. The only way I could get anything close to what my friends have is to use a tactile actuator. I looked at all of them, (Buttkicker, Aura, I-beam, etc.), and decided on the Crowson. (The Earthquake wasn't available at that point.)


After installing the actuator and riser, I found there is actually an unexpected benefit to this arrangement over shaking the whole floor. A suspended floor shakes at a "resonant frequency", which means it only shakes when actuated with that frequency, (or the range around that frequency.) So, sometimes you get *massive* shaking when you have LFE at that frequency range... and other times you don't get much shaking at all, when the LFE is outside that range. With a tactile actuator, you get shaking at all frequencies, and you can actually feel the difference between different frequencies.


I have set up the "source signal" for the actuators a little bit unconventionally. I use Audyssey XT32 for room correction. This means that both subwoofer outputs on my pre/pro are exposed to the EQ for that room correction. The tactile actuators don't need or benefit from room correction, so the challenge was to find a source signal without room correction. I could not get one from my pre/pro. Then it dawned on me... since the vast majority of my "quality" viewing/listening is sourced from my Oppo BDP-83, and since it has MC analog outputs, including a subwoofer output, and those outputs are active even when the HDMI connection is in use, I simply connected the Oppo's subwoofer output to the amp for the Crowson directly. I then set the Bass Management in the Oppo to re-route all the main channel bass to the subwoofer output,an _viola_... a "pure" subwoofer source signal without room correction.







The one downside is that the signal is not exposed to the Master Volume Control, so I need to control the "volume" of the actuator manually. I have settled on 2 different settings, one for movies and one for music, with the music setting being about 25% lower than the movie setting. It's a simple matter to set it before listening to one or the other, but there have been occasions where I forget and I get the mvie setting for music...
























I am using the Buttkicker mono amp to drive the Crowsons. It delivers 1,000 watts into 4 ohms. It has an LPF and an HPF. I set the LPF at 40 Hz and disable the HPF. I don't like the actuator to shake at higher frequencies. 40 Hz is the highest frequency I find "believable" for shaking. Above that, and it becomes gimmicky and fake. I do enjoy the shaking for the infrasonic stuff. The Crowsons have response down to 3 Hz, as does the Buttkicker amp, so you get really good shaking with the ULF's.










The one downside to using an actuator with a riser is that the riser can become a "speaker." It can make some noise with the shaking. However, it's a low enough level sound that it is completely masked by the sounds from the speakers and subs. I never hear it or notice during normal use. In fact I only hear it when I have the speakers and subs turned off, and I'm just driving the actuator. However, it is potential issue.


Otherwise, I would not give up my tactile response system for anything. It adds a level of immersion and enjoyment that is otherwise not possible in my basement HT.


Pic's to follow...


Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/21094512
> 
> 
> Great stuff Craig. I am sure the chairs will look and feel great once they are in place.



Hopefully tomorrow night...










Craig


----------



## DMark1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21096088
> 
> 
> Hi FOH,
> 
> 
> Some background...
> 
> 
> I have had a single Crowson actuator underneath my seats for years. I originally had it just on the floor, (carpet over concrete), without the riser. I could shake the seats, but I always noticed that the floor didn't shake, and that I got no sensation through my feet; and therefore I've always found the effect to be compromised. About 6 months ago, I built the riser to try to transmit some tactile sensation to my feet to make the experience more believable. It worked quite well, so I'm now extending it to the new riser and the new seats.
> 
> 
> I have 2 friends who's HT's are on the 2nd floors of their homes. They are on "suspended" floors. They both get incredible tactile response from acoustic-mechanical coupling of the bass to their floors. The floors shake and transmit tactile response to your feet, but they also shake the seats and transmit tactile response to your body. It's an all-inclusive experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the effect I'm trying to emulate in my room. My HT is in the basement, on a concrete floor. Without the tactile actuator, I get ZERO tactile response, even with 3 Submersive HP's. It's simply impossible to shake concrete with acoustic-mechanical coupling. The only way I could get anything close to what my friends have is to use a tactile actuator. I looked at all of them, (Buttkicker, Aura, I-beam, etc.), and decided on the Crowson. (The Earthquake wasn't available at that point.)
> 
> 
> After installing the actuator and riser, I found there is actually an unexpected benefit to this arrangement over shaking the whole floor. A suspended floor shakes at a "resonant frequency", which means it only shakes when actuated with that frequency, (or the range around that frequency.) So, sometimes you get *massive* shaking when you have LFE at that frequency range... and other times you don't get much shaking at all, when the LFE is outside that range. With a tactile actuator, you get shaking at all frequencies, and you can actually feel the difference between different frequencies.
> 
> 
> I have set up the "source signal" for the actuators a little bit unconventionally. I use Audyssey XT32 for room correction. This means that both subwoofer outputs on my pre/pro are exposed to the EQ for that room correction. The tactile actuators don't need or benefit from room correction, so the challenge was to find a source signal without room correction. I could not get one from my pre/pro. Then it dawned on me... since the vast majority of my "quality" viewing/listening is sourced from my Oppo BDP-83, and since it has MC analog outputs, including a subwoofer output, and those outputs are active even when the HDMI connection is in use, I simply connected the Oppo's subwoofer output to the amp for the Crowson directly. I then set the Bass Management in the Oppo to re-route all the main channel bass to the subwoofer output,an _viola_... a "pure" subwoofer source signal without room correction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The one downside is that the signal is not exposed to the Master Volume Control, so I need to control the "volume" of the actuator manually. I have settled on 2 different settings, one for movies and one for music, with the music setting being about 25% lower than the movie setting. It's a simple matter to set it before listening to one or the other, but there have been occasions where I forget and I get the mvie setting for music...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am using the Buttkicker mono amp to drive the Crowsons. It delivers 1,000 watts into 4 ohms. It has an LPF and an HPF. I set the LPF at 40 Hz and disable the HPF. I don't like the actuator to shake at higher frequencies. 40 Hz is the highest frequency I find "believable" for shaking. Above that, and it becomes gimmicky and fake. I do enjoy the shaking for the infrasonic stuff. The Crowsons have response down to 3 Hz, as does the Buttkicker amp, so you get really good shaking with the ULF's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The one downside to using an actuator with a riser is that the riser can become a "speaker." It can make some noise with the shaking. However, it's a low enough level sound that it is completely masked by the sounds from the speakers and subs. I never hear it or notice during normal use. In fact I only hear it when I have the speakers and subs turned off, and I'm just driving the actuator. However, it is potential issue.
> 
> 
> Otherwise, I would not give up my tactile response system for anything. It adds a level of immersion and enjoyment that is otherwise not possible in my basement HT.
> 
> 
> Pic's to follow...
> 
> 
> Craig




I can certainly attest to the effectiveness of Craig's Crowson transducer setup. I agree with everything he says above. As a musician, I very much appreciate being able to discern the vibrational differences between bass notes. That's the same feeling I get when playing live music.


Some other tactile transducers just shake at the same frequency for everything. To me, that would not feel right, and would distract me. Craig's riser does indeed help the experience when you feel the vibes through your feet. I am looking forward to setting up the second Crowson - I think it will make the experience even better!


----------



## Mark Seaton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21096088
> 
> 
> I have set up the "source signal" for the actuators a little bit unconventionally. I use Audyssey XT32 for room correction. This means that both subwoofer outputs on my pre/pro are exposed to the EQ for that room correction. The tactile actuators don't need or benefit from room correction, so the challenge was to find a source signal without room correction. I could not get one from my pre/pro. Then it dawned on me... since the vast majority of my "quality" viewing/listening is sourced from my Oppo BDP-83, and since it has MC analog outputs, including a subwoofer output, and those outputs are active even when the HDMI connection is in use, I simply connected the Oppo's subwoofer output to the amp for the Crowson directly. I then set the Bass Management in the Oppo to re-route all the main channel bass to the subwoofer output,an _viola_... a "pure" subwoofer source signal without room correction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The one downside is that the signal is not exposed to the Master Volume Control, so I need to control the "volume" of the actuator manually. I have settled on 2 different settings, one for movies and one for music, with the music setting being about 25% lower than the movie setting. It's a simple matter to set it before listening to one or the other, but there have been occasions where I forget and I get the mvie setting for music...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am using the Buttkicker mono amp to drive the Crowsons. It delivers 1,000 watts into 4 ohms. It has an LPF and an HPF. I set the LPF at 40 Hz and disable the HPF. I don't like the actuator to shake at higher frequencies. 40 Hz is the highest frequency I find "believable" for shaking. Above that, and it becomes gimmicky and fake. I do enjoy the shaking for the infrasonic stuff. The Crowsons have response down to 3 Hz, as does the Buttkicker amp, so you get really good shaking with the ULF's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The one downside to using an actuator with a riser is that the riser can become a "speaker." It can make some noise with the shaking. However, it's a low enough level sound that it is completely masked by the sounds from the speakers and subs. I never hear it or notice during normal use. In fact I only hear it when I have the speakers and subs turned off, and I'm just driving the actuator. However, it is potential issue.
> 
> 
> Otherwise, I would not give up my tactile response system for anything. It adds a level of immersion and enjoyment that is otherwise not possible in my basement HT.
> 
> 
> Pic's to follow...
> 
> 
> Craig



Hi Craig,


Sounds fun. One detail few consider when setting up tactile enhancers is the propagation delay vs. the physical coupling. Our perception of location and other factors is dominated heavily by the first sound we hear/sense. Being physically connected to the seats, there is no "time of flight" for the shakers while there is for the subs and speakers. In your particular case, you also have to consider the internal latency of the preamp vs. the analog outputs of the Oppo.


Ideally when I've set up a few systems with shakers used I will actually set the microphone flat on the seat and run an impulse-like test with the sub channel low pass in the loop. You can basically line up the mounds of energy between the shaker and the sub, followed by a little fine tuning with real listening. Percussive tracks are more useful for this.


With a little measuring and comparing to what many will approximate by ear/feel, we find that the low pass not only reduces the level of the more localizable upper bass content, but also adds group delay due to the nature of the filter. For a given filter type, ie 12 or 24 dB/oct, half the frequency means 2x the group delay. 24dB/octave is a bit more useful in its scale for most rooms, but 12dB is still in the right direction where a 40Hz L/P adds 5.5-7ms of group delay, and 20Hz adds 11-14+ms. A 24dB/octave low pass filter is a bit more than 2x the amount of delay.


If I recall correctly, you have only one of your two subwoofer outputs in use with Audyssey. I wonder if you calibrate the system with no sub on the 2nd output and then turn it on after calibration, if it will leave the signal alone and also allow you to use a reduced distance setting vs. the subs? While I know Audyssey applies separate delays, I'm not sure if it uses a common correction to both outputs. You could measure the subs with Audyssey off, then turn Audyssey back on and plug the subs in to output 2 for comparison.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark Seaton* /forum/post/21097184
> 
> 
> Hi Craig,
> 
> 
> Sounds fun. One detail few consider when setting up tactile enhancers is the propagation delay vs. the physical coupling. Our perception of location and other factors is dominated heavily by the first sound we hear/sense. Being physically connected to the seats, there is no "time of flight" for the shakers while there is for the subs and speakers. In your particular case, you also have to consider the internal latency of the preamp vs. the analog outputs of the Oppo.
> 
> 
> Ideally when I've set up a few systems with shakers used I will actually set the microphone flat on the seat and run an impulse-like test with the sub channel low pass in the loop. You can basically line up the mounds of energy between the shaker and the sub, followed by a little fine tuning with real listening. Percussive tracks are more useful for this.
> 
> 
> With a little measuring and comparing to what many will approximate by ear/feel, we find that the low pass not only reduces the level of the more localizable upper bass content, but also adds group delay due to the nature of the filter. For a given filter type, ie 12 or 24 dB/oct, half the frequency means 2x the group delay. 24dB/octave is a bit more useful in its scale for most rooms, but 12dB is still in the right direction where a 40Hz L/P adds 5.5-7ms of group delay, and 20Hz adds 11-14+ms. A 24dB/octave low pass filter is a bit more than 2x the amount of delay.
> 
> 
> If I recall correctly, you have only one of your two subwoofer outputs in use with Audyssey. I wonder if you calibrate the system with no sub on the 2nd output and then turn it on after calibration, if it will leave the signal alone and also allow you to use a reduced distance setting vs. the subs? While I know Audyssey applies separate delays, I'm not sure if it uses a common correction to both outputs. You could measure the subs with Audyssey off, then turn Audyssey back on and plug the subs in to output 2 for comparison.



Hi Mark,


Thanks for your valuable input. I have noticed and recognized the issue you raise. In fact, I had given consideration to adding some delay to the output of the Oppo to compensate for the pre/pro processing. I actually asked Randy Crowson about this, but he had no suggestions. Even their own amps don't have any delay capability, (which seems like it should be an essential element of a tactile actuator system, if for no other reason than to account for the time differences of the physical coupling of the actuator vs. acoustic propagation of the soundwaves.) Nonetheless, they provide no method of doing this.


I had also asked Chris K. of Audyssey if there was a way to use one of the subwoofer outputs without any Audyssey correction and with different delay. He said the delay is no problem; you can just use different Distance settings. However, both outputs are sent the same EQ'd signal and both will have the room correction applied to them. That was why I investigated my somewhat unconventional arrangement.


I guess I should have just come straight to the best source of info I know... you!







Do you know of a simple, external device that can add adjustable delay to the system? I could probably use something like the Behringer DEQ2496 to add delay, but that seems like overkill. Is there something simpler and easier to use? I think that is probably the last little detail I need to address to ideally integrate the tactile actuators.


Thanks for any insights.


Craig


----------



## FOH

Thanks for the details, watching closely...


The Behringer DSP110 may work, it's got XLR, and 1/4 I/O's

Here's more from Behringer. The bigger 2496 would perhaps future proof you in other ways you're not considering right now, but who knows. I don't know if the smaller DSP110 is even made anymore. With the exception of the link I provided, several retailers list them as unavailable.



Good luck


----------



## thxman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21096088
> 
> 
> …I have set up the "source signal" for the actuators a little bit unconventionally. I use Audyssey XT32 for room correction. This means that both subwoofer outputs on my pre/pro are exposed to the EQ for that room correction. The tactile actuators don't need or benefit from room correction, so the challenge was to find a source signal without room correction. I could not get one from my pre/pro. Then it dawned on me... since the vast majority of my "quality" viewing/listening is sourced from my Oppo BDP-83, and since it has MC analog outputs, including a subwoofer output, and those outputs are active even when the HDMI connection is in use, I simply connected the Oppo's subwoofer output to the amp for the Crowson directly. I then set the Bass Management in the Oppo to re-route all the main channel bass to the subwoofer output,an _viola_... a "pure" subwoofer source signal without room correction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The one downside is that the signal is not exposed to the Master Volume Control, so I need to control the "volume" of the actuator manually. I have settled on 2 different settings, one for movies and one for music, with the music setting being about 25% lower than the movie setting. It's a simple matter to set it before listening to one or the other, but there have been occasions where I forget and I get the mvie setting for music...



Hmm, this is a good point. I may move my output for my D-Box (audio mode) to my Oppo. The D-Box software also lets me control delay and volume from my remote, so I have those issues covered. Thanks for the great idea!


----------



## craig john

I've been away for a while attending to some family things... weddings, babysitting grandkids, etc.







All good stuff...










Anyway, I'm back and the new chairs are set up along with the Crowson actuators. I have some pics of the install:



Here is a pick of the shipping box.











Inside the box, the two actuators are shipped in their own velvet bags... nice touch.


















We changed the mounting of the isolation feet from the original plan. We placed one foot underneath the middle of the arm to stabilize the arm. We eliminated the foot nearest the actuator because the acuator became the needed support in this area.











Here is one of the actuators installed underneath one of the chairs. The other chair will be moved over, on top of the actuator and it will shake both seats.










See next post...


----------



## craig john

Here are the seats configured as dual love seats:











Here they are configured as 4 individual chairs using what Acoustic Innovations calls their "Shark Arms." These are removable arms that can be placed between the seats to make them individual seats. They have "fins" that go down into the space between the seats to hold them in place:










Here is Dennis enjoying the fruits of our labors: a DogfishHead 60 Minute IPA.











We later fully enjoyed The Eagles, Farewell 1 Tour HD DVD from our reclined and heated seats. It doesn't get any better than this!!!


Craig


PS. The lighting in the pic's makes the leather look much lighter than it really is. It's a burgundy leather. It's actually a much deeper red than it shows in the pic's.


----------



## Will216

Dogfish !!! I like your taste in beer , sir....


----------



## MIkeDuke

They look fantastic Craig. Nice platform as well. A very big congrats to you







.


----------



## Vinculum

Looks great Craig!


Did you officially retire the coffee table?


I'm thinking mine has to go, as it's a big reflection point.


----------



## audioguy

Craig:


You are going to need to pick a new pro football team. The Green Bay colors don't go with the rest of your room










Those chairs look very nice --- properly "loaded" with beer !!


----------



## MIkeDuke

Craig, check your PM and email please







.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Will216* /forum/post/21141170
> 
> 
> Dogfish !!! I like your taste in beer , sir....














> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/21141251
> 
> 
> They look fantastic Craig. Nice platform as well. A very big congrats to you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Thanks Mike!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vinculum* /forum/post/21141258
> 
> 
> Looks great Craig!
> 
> 
> Did you officially retire the coffee table?
> 
> 
> I'm thinking mine has to go, as it's a big reflection point.



The coffee table is gone. Nothing between me and my music anymore!












> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy* /forum/post/21142145
> 
> 
> Craig:
> 
> 
> You are going to need to pick a new pro football team. The Green Bay colors don't go with the rest of your room
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those chairs look very nice --- properly "loaded" with beer !!



I think the Green and Gold look just fine. Watching Aaron Rodgers, Greg Jennings, B. J. Raji, Charles Woodson, Clay Matthews and the rest of the team work their magic on the big screen *requires* the GB colors to be flown close by. The "cheesehead" is now so old it can no longer be worn, but it has taken up a place of reverence atop a Submersive.







Mark Seaton, being from Chicago, and likely a Bears fan, probably hates seeing it there, but, oh well...










With all the snow being predicted for today and tonight, I'm gonna camp out in the heated theater chairs. Maybe an LOTR marathon!


Craig


----------



## audioguy

Having Aaron Rogers as quarterback gives Green Bay an unfair advantage. He's almost as hard to catch as Michael Vick but a much better passer. I can't imagine who can beat them this year!


----------



## FOH

Packers, Packers, Packers, blah blah blah, .....keep up the faith, they need it







I'm sure that cheese head deal, could serve you well as a reflection point attenuator, no? My Colts are about to make their move anytime. Just as Aaron Rodgers went on to fame as a Hall of Famer back-up, so can Curtis Painter










J/K, the Packers are truly extraordinary, Rodgers is quite something to watch right now,...exciting stuff.

--------


So, what gives?



> Quote:
> We later fully enjoyed The Eagles, Farewell 1 Tour HD DVD from our reclined and heated seats. It doesn't get any better than this!!!



Is this all we get? I was really looking forward to more detailed description of the integration/enjoyment of the shakers. Are there elements that aren't all in place yet?










All joking aside, once optimized/etc., I really am curious as to the shakers/transducers contribution, and how the experience changes, as I've never had the opportunity to audition anything like that before. I personally value your contributions and even handed approach to sharing details of listening HT experiences with others.



Additionally, Lancaster PA, just noticed that detail. I took a high school German Club trip to your fair city many, many years ago







Good times!



Thanks, enjoy the weekend


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21142640
> 
> 
> Packers, Packers, Packers, blah blah blah, .....keep up the faith, they need it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure that cheese head deal, could serve you well as a reflection point attenuator, no? My Colts are about to make their move anytime. Just as Aaron Rodgers went on to fame as a Hall of Famer back-up, so can Curtis Painter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J/K, the Packers are truly extraordinary, Rodgers is quite something to watch right now,...exciting stuff.
> 
> --------
> 
> 
> So, what gives?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this all we get? I was really looking forward to more detailed description of the integration/enjoyment of the shakers. Are there elements that aren't all in place yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All joking aside, once optimized/etc., I really am curious as to the shakers/transducers contribution, and how the experience changes, as I've never had the opportunity to audition anything like that before. I personally value your contributions and even handed approach to sharing details of listening HT experiences with others.



I was going to start the "Official Crowson Technology Tactile Actuator" thread over in the Subwoofers, Bass and Transducers forum. I was kinda saving all that for that thread. I'll PM you when I get it posted.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21142640
> 
> 
> Additionally, Lancaster PA, just noticed that detail. I took a high school German Club trip to your fair city many, many years ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good times!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, enjoy the weekend



We moved here 28 years ago. It's a great place to raise a family. And the weather is *generally* a lot better than the Wisconsin weather. However, this is the first time in 28 years that we've had snow in October.







There's about 6" out there and still snowing. Oh well, back to the movie.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy* /forum/post/21142572
> 
> 
> Having Aaron Rogers as quarterback gives Green Bay an unfair advantage. He's almost as hard to catch as Michael Vick but a much better passer. I can't imagine who can beat them this year!



"Unfair advantage..." I like that!


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21142785
> 
> 
> I was going to start the "Official Crowson Technology Tactile Actuator" thread over in the Subwoofers, Bass and Transducers forum. I was kinda saving all that for that thread. I'll PM you when I get it posted.



Good idea.


----------



## Bunga99

The new seats and riser look great Craig!


How does the new seats compare in comfort to the old seats?


I especially like the fin idea of those seats.


You guys really did a terrific job on the riser too not just with the transducer install but the riser itself and the color/carpet choice. Maybe it just an optical illusion on my end but there are some pics, like this one , that appear the riser top is almost hovering 4-5 inches off the floor







Again, very cool choice in color combo.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/21150930
> 
> 
> The new seats and riser look great Craig!



Thanks!



> Quote:
> How does the new seats compare in comfort to the old seats?



The old seats were pretty shot, especially the sweet spot seat. I had *lots* of seat time in that one. The new seats are much more firm. Plus, they have recline, heat and massage. The heat came in real handy this past weekend when we had that crazy snowstorm. Cupholders and remote storage are icing on the cake. I really like them.











> Quote:
> I especially like the “fin” idea of those seats.



Yeah, they're a cool feature. When it's just the wife and I, we each get a nice big chair. When the guys are over, and I don't feel like "rubbing elbows" with them, the shark arms provide individual seats. The only problem is, I don't have a good place to store them.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/21150930
> 
> 
> You guys really did a terrific job on the riser too not just with the transducer install but the riser itself and the color/carpet choice. Maybe it just an optical illusion on my end but there are some pics, like this one , that appear the riser top is almost hovering 4-5 inches off the floor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, very cool choice in color combo.



Thanks again. I had some leftover floor carpet that I used for the sides of the riser. That's why it matches the floor so well... it's the same carpet. For the riser top, we wanted something matching, but a little more "visible" so people would see it and not step off it unknowingly. My wife, ("she who decorates"), picked it out. I'll tell her you said she did a good job.










Craig


----------



## craig john

This is totally off-topic for the AV Science Forum, but this is my thread, so WTF...


Packers 45, Vikings 7.


'nuff said.


Jared Allen... KMA.


See ya next year.


Bu-Bye!


Craig


----------



## DMark1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21213384
> 
> 
> This is totally off-topic for the AV Science Forum, but this is my thread, so WTF...
> 
> 
> Packers 45, Vikings 7.
> 
> 
> 'nuff said.
> 
> 
> Jared Allen... KMA.
> 
> 
> See ya next year.
> 
> 
> Bu-Bye!
> 
> 
> Craig



Craig, man - you are too funny!! I'm glad the Packers are on a roll!


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DMark1* /forum/post/21213549
> 
> 
> Craig, man - you are too funny!! I'm glad the Packers are on a roll!



And my poor Eagles are dead and burried


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/21214563
> 
> 
> And my poor Eagles are dead and burried



Poor Eagles? Dead and buried....How do think it feels to be a Colt's fan?










Watching Rogers operate so decisively, great decision making etc, sweet. Seeing him, or Brady,.. perform at a high level, it's a real pleasure,..._*especially in context*_ after watching our 4th string QB, Dan Orlovsky, on Sunday. C'mon man, Orlovsky has a shot at quite a dubious distinction. Being part of two 0-16 clubs, in three years










Any room on the wagon Craig?


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21215601
> 
> 
> Poor Eagles? Dead and buried....*How do think it feels to be a Colt's fan?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Watching Rogers operate so decisively, great decision making etc, sweet. Seeing him, or Brady,.. perform at a high level, it's a real pleasure,..._*especially in context*_ after watching our 4th string QB, Dan Orlovsky, on Sunday. C'mon man, Orlovsky has a shot at quite a dubious distinction. Being part of two 0-16 clubs, in three years
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any room on the wagon Craig?



True. True. an 0'fer is really sad.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DMark1* /forum/post/21213549
> 
> 
> Craig, man - you are too funny!! I'm glad the Packers are on a roll!














> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/21214563
> 
> 
> And my poor Eagles are dead and burried



I said when they gave Mike Vick that big contract that his value would be determined by his ability to stay healthy. I respect that he plays balls to the wall, but it leads to all his health issues. Now, with 2 broken ribs, the Iggles are in trouble.


















> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21215601
> 
> 
> Poor Eagles? Dead and buried....How do think it feels to be a Colt's fan?



And Peyton said he was OK with them drafting a quarterback with their (assumed) high draft pick? Do you believe he said that?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21215601
> 
> 
> Watching Rogers operate so decisively, great decision making etc, sweet. Seeing him, or Brady,.. perform at a high level, it's a real pleasure,...



Substitute Payton for the strikethrough.







Hopefully he gets back soon.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21215601
> 
> _*especially in context*_ after watching our 4th string QB, Dan Orlovsky, on Sunday. C'mon man, Orlovsky has a shot at quite a dubious distinction. Being part of two 0-16 clubs, in three years



Ouch!!!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21215601
> 
> 
> Any room on the wagon Craig?



All Aboard!










Craig


PS. To get back on-topic, I bought the Pink Floyd WYWH boxed set over the weekend. I've listened to a few of the discs: the Hi-Rez, (96/24) MC BluRay Music version, and the original Quad mix. Very different! What sound! The bass is incredible. The surround mixes add a level immersiveness that needs to be experienced. I've only listened in "base" codec, (i.e., no post-processing added.) I will re-listen with DSX added and report back.


At the beginning of _Welcome to the Machine_, there are some incredible bass tones that really get the Crowson's rockin'! They add a whole new perspective to the music. WOW!


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21217769
> 
> 
> I bought the Pink Floyd WYWH boxed set over the weekend. I've listened ....
> 
> 
> What sound! *The bass is incredible.* The surround mixes add a level immersiveness that needs to be experienced.



Yeah, WYWH,...strong strong stuff there. Sounds exciting! I've not picked it up yet.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I Know WYWH sounds good on my system with just stereo. I can imagine how good it sounds on your system with MC.


----------



## hometheatergeek

Afternoon Craig,


I noticed XTZ Standard is on sale for only $230 from acousticfrontiers, $260 after shipping. Do you think this would be a good buy or if you were to do it all over again would you have gone with the OmniMic system? I'm still on the fence on which one to buy.


----------



## hometheatergeek

BTW did you see anyone can now receive an Electronic Lifestyles® Magazine subscription for free from CEDIA. All you have to do is sign up here.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hometheatergeek* /forum/post/21314266
> 
> 
> Afternoon Craig,
> 
> 
> I noticed XTZ Standard is on sale for only $230 from acousticfrontiers, $260 after shipping. Do you think this would be a good buy or if you were to do it all over again would you have gone with the OmniMic system? I'm still on the fence on which one to buy.



Hi HTG,


I've used them both, and I like them both. They're both easy to set up and get started with, although OmniMic might be slightly easier. I like the 2D time decay charts in xtz. I wish it had higher resolution than 1/6th octave. The new "Pro" version with the upgraded mic looks interesting, but it's more $$$.


At the price, IMO, you can't go wrong with either one. They'll both give you good FR and bass decay measurements. However, if you want to get really serious about speaker design and/or higher level room acoustics measurements, you'll need to step up to some better software, or you'll need to take the time to get past the learning curve for REW.


Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hometheatergeek* /forum/post/21314477
> 
> 
> BTW did you see anyone can now receive an Electronic Lifestyles® Magazine subscription for free from CEDIA. All you have to do is sign up here.



Thanks. Subscribed.


Craig


----------



## DMark1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hometheatergeek* /forum/post/21314477
> 
> 
> BTW did you see anyone can now receive an Electronic Lifestyles® Magazine subscription for free from CEDIA. All you have to do is sign up here.



Thanks HTGeek - I'm signed up too.


----------



## craig john

Tonight I placed an order for a JVC RS-55. It should be here the first week in January.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21382729
> 
> 
> Tonight I placed an order for a JVC RS-55. It should be here the first week in January.



Very nice looking projector Craig. Congrats. I hope I can see it in person







.


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Tonight I placed an order for a JVC RS-55. It should be here the first week in January.



My envy runs deep!!!! Lol.....seriously though, that's a great move! Congratulations.


----------



## Bunga99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast* /forum/post/21384925
> 
> 
> My envy runs deep!!!!



+1


----------



## hometheatergeek

*Good Afternoon and a Very Merry Christmas Craig.*


Hope you are having a great time this holiday season.


----------



## craig john

Thanks guys! We are in AZ spending the holidays with the kids/grand kids. I also get to visit the Forte's.










Nice win by the Packers last night! Here's hoping for another SB run!


Happy Holidays to all my AVS friends!!!


Craig


----------



## craig john

Something shipped today!


----------



## pokekevin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Something shipped today!



What is this something??


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin* /forum/post/21436831
> 
> 
> What is this something??





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21382729
> 
> 
> Tonight I placed an order for a JVC RS-55. It should be here the first week in January.













Craig


----------



## pokekevin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



Oh la la! I see you had new year resolutions lol


----------



## DMark1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21436643
> 
> 
> Something shipped today!



Craig: My JVC RS45 is on its way also - should be here maybe Thursday this week! January is going to be alot of fun for both of us!!


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DMark1* /forum/post/21437039
> 
> 
> Craig: My JVC RS45 is on its way also - should be here maybe Thursday this week! January is going to be alot of fun for both of us!!


----------



## hometheatergeek

Ooooh Mr John has a new PJ perhaps. You dog you.







Can I be like you when I grow up?


----------



## craig john

Grow up??? Who wants to grow up???










Craig


----------



## hometheatergeek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21437213
> 
> 
> Grow up??? Who wants to grow up???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



Oh I meant rich and famous like you.


----------



## pokekevin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Grow up??? Who wants to grow up???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



I miss thoe days of no tax


----------



## bencorn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hometheatergeek* /forum/post/21314477
> 
> 
> BTW did you see anyone can now receive an Electronic Lifestyles® Magazine subscription for free from CEDIA. All you have to do is sign up here.



Sweet, thanks for posting.


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin* /forum/post/21437020
> 
> 
> Oh la la! I see you had new year _resolutions_ lol



Yep,...a very high resolution _resolution_


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21439630
> 
> 
> Yep,...a very high resolution _resolution_



Clever!


----------



## craig john

Welllll... good news and bad news...


Good news... I received the JVC RS-55 today.


Bad news... my mount is too small to fit the spacing of the holes on the projector.





















First time in my life I've ever been 2" too short!
























Anyway, I called Mark Haflich and ordered a new mount. Should be here next Wednesday.


Worse news... I had already taken down my BenQ W10000 when I figured this out, so now I need to decide whether to put it back up, or wait until next Wednesday... and be out of commission in my HT until then.


Instead, I think I'll just go over to Dennis' place, (DMark1), and check out his new RS-45.










Craig


----------



## craig john

Well, I went to Dennis' last night to check out his RS-45. This morning I made an appointment with an oral surgeon to have my jaw put back in place.










Seriously, I must have said, "Look at that... that's unbelievable!" at least 100 times. We watched scenes from Avatar, Tron, Speed Racer,





















, Cars 2, and a Lindsey Buckinghame concert. Everything looked just incredible. Colors POPPED! Detail, clarity and sharpness were at least as good as, (mostly better than), my BenQ DLP, but with hugely better contrast and brightness.


Made me extremely anxious to get my RS-55 up and running. Gotta go work on that right now!


Craig


----------



## FOH

Good stuff, huh?


For an entirely, audio oriented, projector noob (moi







), what is so great about this avenue? Seriously, ... a dissertation isn't needed, but I am _beginning,..a little_ to consider something other than my near-field Panny 65", so perhaps merely the Cliffs Notes version is all that's needed.


----------



## DMark1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21455198
> 
> 
> Well, I went to Dennis' last night to check out his RS-45. This morning I made an appointment with an oral surgeon to have my jaw put back in place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, I must have said, "Look at that... that's unbelievable!" at least 100 times. We watched scenes from Avatar, Tron, Speed Racer,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , Cars 2, and a Lindsey Buckinghame concert. Everything looked just incredible. Colors POPPED! Detail, clarity and sharpness were at least as good as, (mostly better than), my BenQ DLP, but with hugely better contrast and brightness.
> 
> 
> Made me extremely anxious to get my RS-55 up and running. Gotta go work on that right now!
> 
> 
> Craig



Thanks Craig. Last night was the second day with the RS45 in the theater, and I was running it on the normal (low) bulb setting in the "Cinema" mode, with the settings straight out of the box! The lens aperature is currently open all the way, as it comes from the factory. The only thing we changed from the stock setting was running Clear Motion Drive (frame interpolation) on the #3 setting, which smoothed out motion without looking like a soap opera.


Like Craig said, we were both very impressed with the initial viewing of the JVC RS45 projector in my room. Very bright on a 100" wide sheerweave acoustically transparent screen, with the pj roughly 14 feet back from the screen. Very good black level and good shadow detail.


The black bars above and below the picture were so black, they virtually disappeared! I am actually considering just going with a 16:9 screen now instead of a 2.35:1 screen because the bars were so dark that they were almost unnoticable. Starfields were incredibly inky black with bright white stars. I can't wait until everything is calibrated and even better. The picture looks a little red at the moment, but man do colors POP!! Tron, Avatar, Cars 2, and Speed Racer (OMG!!!- CRAZY vivid color palette) all looked fantastic!


----------



## craig john

After being overwhelmed by the absolute goodness of Dennis' projector last night, I got my RS-55 jerry-rigged today. I placed it atop a tall shelf behind the seating. Fired it up and...

*WOW!*


This thing is just freakin' incredible! It has the same spectacular color saturation and intensity as Dennis' RS-45, the same brightness and deep contrast, but if anything, it is both sharper AND it's smoother at the same time. Not that Dennis' pj is not extremely sharp and very smooth. It definitely is both. However, the e-shift, 4K resolution takes it to the next level. If I get very close to the screen, I can see the weave pattern and the holes, but no pixel structure. Even if I put a piece of white paper over the screen, the pixel structure is completely invisible.


I watched a little bit of Avatar and then the wife came down and wanted to watch one of her DVR'd shows... Blue Bloods or something. She couldn't stop saying stuff like, "WOW that's incredible!", "Look at those colors!", "Look at the detail. I can read his name on his ID Badge!," Stuff like that. Suffice it to say she *easily* saw and appreciated the improvements.


Shortly after that we had to go out to our company Holiday party. When I got home, I watched the Saints/Lions game. I've seriously never seen football look like this. I was so involved in the image quality, I almost didn't watch the game. The Lions won, right? (J/K!)










After the game, I threw in King Kong. I zoomed out to 2.35:1, (don't have my a-lens mounted yet), and jumped to the brontosaurus stampede scene. I saw detail and depth in that scene I've never seen before. Colors were also much more vivid and saturated. Tomorrow, (before football), I'll try a few scenes from RotK, particularly the Battle of the Pelenor Fields scene. That is one of my "go to" scenes for both image and sound quality. I've seen it so many times that I know it by heart. If anything will show the benefits of this pj, that scene will.


Suffice it to say that Dennis's and I are both *VERY* happy with our new projectors.


Having said that, I think there's probably a little performance left in these pj's. OOTB, they are very, very good, but I suspect there is some black level and shadow detail still available. In addition, I wonder how accurate these highly saturated colors really are. I am going to get some hours on the bulb and then get it calibrated.


Craig


----------



## FOH

Wow,...is right.


If only you'd pick up your game on the audio side of things,...get some decent mains and subs,... you'd be all set


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21458722
> 
> 
> I wonder how accurate these highly saturated colors really are. I am going to get some hours on the bulb and then get it calibrated.
> 
> 
> Craig



Accurate? Who cares? Fun, involving, spectacular, amazing, bright, detailed, yes? Accurate? Maybe preference is more fun the reference for video. (just kidding)


My 55 arrived today but of course I was not here when it showed up. So I'll get it tomorrow. The mounting plate for the motorized Panamorph arrived today (and weighs about 25 pounds !!) and the bracket should be here tomorrow.


Maybe on Wednesday or Thursday.


I'm stoked !!


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy* /forum/post/21466984
> 
> 
> Accurate? Who cares? Fun, involving, spectacular, amazing, bright, detailed, yes? Accurate? Maybe preference is more fun the reference for video. (just kidding)
> 
> 
> My 55 arrived today but of course I was not here when it showed up. So I'll get it tomorrow. The mounting plate for the motorized Panamorph arrived today (and weighs about 25 pounds !!) and the bracket should be here tomorrow.
> 
> 
> Maybe on Wednesday or Thursday.
> 
> 
> I'm stoked !!



You need to start a thread on this forum. You need to share your spectacular theater with the world... seriously.


Craig


----------



## hometheatergeek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21467137
> 
> 
> You need to start a thread on this forum. You need to share your spectacular theater with the world... seriously.
> 
> 
> Craig



I know Chuck already had a thread started in the WYSC. He is such a slacker and does not keep it updated.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john* /forum/post/21467137
> 
> 
> You need to start a thread on this forum. You need to share your spectacular theater with the world... seriously.
> 
> 
> Craig



Craig: Thanks for the kind words. Once I get the new surrounds installed/mounted (hopefully I will have them next week), get the electrician to install new power where the 4 surrounds will be located (he's coming tomorrow), I will take some new photos and post them. I may end up having to use a professional photographer as every-time I take photos of the room (given my amateur photography skills and a black and gray room), it does not show up very well and does not do the room justice. I don't think I have even taken photos since the Catalyst were installed.


The dealer from whom I purchase some of my gear (Atlanta Home Theater) uses a guy that does magic with lighting. I have attached some of his photos. (Love the last one with wine racks in the theater !!)


The chairs in the back row of the first photo are now in my theater!!


----------



## pokekevin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Craig: Thanks for the kind words. Once I get the new surrounds installed/mounted (hopefully I will have them next week), get the electrician to install new power where the 4 surrounds will be located (he's coming tomorrow), I will take some new photos and post them. I may end up having to use a professional photographer as every-time I take photos of the room (given my amateur photography skills and a black and gray room), it does not show up very well and does not do the room justice. I don't think I have even taken photos since the Catalyst were installed.
> 
> 
> The dealer from whom I purchase some of my gear (Atlanta Home Theater) uses a guy that does magic with lighting. I have attached some of his photos. (Love the last one with wine racks in the theater !!)
> 
> 
> The chairs in the back row of the first photo are now in my theater!!



So this what heaven looks like....beautiful


----------



## BrolicBeast

Man, you picked up an RS-55? That's essentially as good as it gets. Have you tested the 3-D light-output yet? I really want a JVC-RS-series projector, but I'm afraid to spring for one until 4k is either here or on the wayside. Speaking of which.......how's e-Shift???


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast* /forum/post/21473822
> 
> 
> Man, you picked up an RS-55? That's essentially as good as it gets. Have you tested the 3-D light-output yet? I really want a JVC-RS-series projector, but I'm afraid to spring for one until 4k is either here or on the wayside. Speaking of which.......how's e-Shift???



I haven't done any testing yet. I have about 20 hours on the bulb... too early for testing. I also don't have all the "stuff" for 3D yet. I ordered a new Oppo last night. I ordered the glasses and emitter also. I should be up and running with 3D by early next week. I'll post my impressions then.


E-shift is awesome... incredible sharpness, but a very smooth image at the same time. I *really* like this projector.


Craig


----------



## FOH

Craig,

I've got an Oppo BDP-95, if you've not experienced Oppo's shipping/packaging, it's quite nice. Also, their 93/95, what a player,...and finally got the aesthetic right. Anyway, me, being an real noob wrt projection, did a bit of reading on your new projector. Wow, what a piece of work. Really cool tech, makes me want to fully explore my projection options,...so thanks for that and good luck.


Later


----------



## MIkeDuke

Craig, I am glad the projector lived up to what you hoped it would. Can't wait to see it for myself







.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FOH* /forum/post/21491484
> 
> 
> Craig,
> 
> I've got an Oppo BDP-95, if you've not experienced Oppo's shipping/packaging, it's quite nice. Also, their 93/95, what a player,...and finally got the aesthetic right. Anyway, me, being an real noob wrt projection, did a bit of reading on your new projector. Wow, what a piece of work. Really cool tech, makes me want to fully explore my projection options,...so thanks for that and good luck.
> 
> 
> Later



Cliff Notes on Front Projection...


The biggest benefit of front projection is immersiveness with the huge, bright, sharp, saturated and contrasty image. This new JVC projector takes that to the next level, and beyond. My BenQ was always very sharp, being a DLP projector. However, it was never very bright, and the contrast left a lot to be desired. Colors were always good, but without the brightness and contrast, they could only be so saturated. The JVC does everything the BenQ did, but it improves on the weaknesses in every area.


Here is a Viewing Distance Calculator:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/v...alculator.html 

Check out how close you need to sit to a flat panel display to get the same kind of immersiveness as a large front projection screen system.


Another big advantage of a front projection system is the ability to use a 2.35:1 screen. This allows viewing of 2.35:1 "scope" movies in full screen mode, with no black bars above and below the image, and/or no odd scaling of the image to fill the screen. Once a 2.35:1 screen is installed, there are 2 ways to effect this: anamorphic lens or lens memory. The JVC can use both. I haven't finished mounting the projector yet, it's still on a ladder behind the LP. Once it's ceiling mounted, I will install my anamorphic lens. Until then, I have tried the lens memory system and it works *very* well.


A widescreen movie on a large, wide screen is as immersive as it gets. With the dark red burgundy curtains, the black ceiling and dark brown carpet, when the lights are out, the room disappears and the huge, wide image just hangs in space, up front.


Imagine an image this size, with the lights out and all you can see is the image on the screen. The speakers disappear, the rest of the room disappears, everything is invisible... and all you can see is the *MOVIE*:











Yet another big advantage to a projector/screen combo is the ability to properly place the center channel speaker. With a flat panel or rear projection display, the CC always needs to be placed above or below the display. It's impossible to get a perfect "lock-up" of picture and sound. Voices will always "image" from a location that is disconnected from the on-screen image. Obviously, the closer the speaker is to the display, the less prominent this problem becomes. In fact, some people never notice this issue... until they've seen/heard a *properly* placed CC.


By using an Acoustically Transparent, (AT), screen, the CC can be placed *behind* the screen where it belongs. Voices suddenly originate from the actor's mouth.







Sounds that pan across the front soundstage, pan through the screen instead of around it. These changes may seem like they're subtle... I can assure you, they are not. They enhance the "suspension of disbelief" significantly.


Not only can one place the CC optimally with a front projection AT screen, one is also afforded the opportunity to use an identical, vertically oriented speaker instead of an unmatched, horizontally oriented speaker. My current system uses a "matched", but horizontally oriented speaker. I bought them used, and the system came with the horizontal CC. I couldn't afford this speaker system new, so buying used, I had to take what was offered. If I had had my "d'ruthers", I'd rather have a third LCR. As it is, the horizontal CC timbre-matches the L/R's exceptionally well. It exhibits a little off-axis comb filtering in the upper bass, but I don't sit off-axis, so I'm not too concerned about it.


My previous system, (3 Atlantic Technologies 8200e's) was 3 identical speakers across the front, with the CC placed behind the screen, and all 3 tweeters at ear level. The current system keeps all 3 tweeters at ear level, and they are essentially identical, (same driver complement and crossovers, same internal cabinet volume), except for the horizontal alignment of the woofers. The solidity and cohesiveness of the front soundstage with my current system is as good or better than my previous system. However, that is more of a statement about Triad engineering and their ability to make a horizontal speaker sound exactly like a vertical speaker than it is about the concept of 3 identical, vertically oriented speakers. The later is the *ideal* arrangement, and only an AT screen allows it to happen.


In the past, the downsides of AT screens were that they were not really acoustically "transparent," and they caused some video aberrations. Both of those have been addressed with the newer, woven AT screens. Woven screens no longer need EQ to correct the upper midrange and high frequency losses. Previous generation, "perforated" screens did need EQ because they had up to 6 dB of loss at high frequencies. In addition, they would comb-filter, which woven screens don't do.


Also, because the holes/perforations would often line up with the video pixel structure, they would cause an effect called "moire", which looked like "flashing" of things that had stripes or banded colors. The woven screens don't exhibit this characteristic. Also, most woven screen manufacturers mount the screen material at a 30 degree bias to the weave, which completely eliminates any problems with moire.


One other potential downside to an AT screen is light loss through the holes. If the "open area" of a screen is 10%, that could mean a 10% light loss. This can be addressed by using a brighter projector. The JVC makes this a non-issue.


Sooooooo... ^^^ those are the "Cliff Notes" on front projection. The benefits are numerous; the downsides are trivial. This new JVC projector trivializes them even more.







It is as close as I've seen to a Pioneer Kuro plasma, but 4X as big.










Craig


----------



## Bunga99

These new projectors sound Amazing! You guys have me intrigued to say the least. I love my Kuro and probably won't upgrade anytime soon (I've heard that before) but I have to ask the following questions for you, DMark1 and Audioguy (please). I am probably going to have to stay with RS45 if I ever do upgrade as I can't afford the 55 anytime soon.


My room is very small and I would sit approximately 8ft away from the screen. Assuming you all have 20/20 vision, do you notice any screen door effect or woven pattern sitting 7-8ft from your AT screen?


In my room, the projector would probably be mounted about 4ft above my head. Do you guys notice any fan noise or any noise from the projector after it's been running for a bit from 4ft away?


I love the size and picture you can get from a DLP rear projection set or projector but the rainbow effect bugs me. I can notice rainbow effect in a heartbeat even when I'm not looking for it; it rears its ugly face. Do you guys have the same issue and does any of the new JVC have that issue?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DMark1* /forum/post/21456932
> 
> 
> The black bars above and below the picture were so black, they virtually disappeared! I am actually considering just going with a 16:9 screen now instead of a 2.35:1 screen because the bars were so dark that they were almost unnoticable.



I noticed Dennis mentioned this ^

Do you guys feel the same that black bars are so inky that they disappeared? If I ever do upgrade, I'd probably go the same route with a 100in-ish 16:9 AT screen?



Thx,

Claude


----------



## DMark1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/21496962
> 
> 
> These new projectors sound Amazing! You guys have me intrigued to say the least. I love my Kuro and probably won't upgrade anytime soon (I've heard that before) but I have to ask the following questions for you, DMark1 and Audioguy (please). I am probably going to have to stay with RS45 if I ever do upgrade as I can't afford the 55 anytime soon.
> 
> 
> My room is very small and I would sit approximately 8ft away from the screen. Assuming you all have 20/20 vision, do you notice any screen door effect or woven pattern sitting 7-8ft from your AT screen?
> 
> 
> In my room, the projector would probably be mounted about 4ft above my head. Do you guys notice any fan noise or any noise from the projector after it's been running for a bit from 4ft away?
> 
> 
> I love the size and picture you can get from a DLP rear projection set or projector but the rainbow effect bugs me. I can notice rainbow effect in a heartbeat even when I'm not looking for it; it rears its ugly face. Do you guys have the same issue and does any of the new JVC have that issue?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed Dennis mentioned this ^
> 
> Do you guys feel the same that black bars are so inky that they disappeared? If I ever do upgrade, I'd probably go the same route with a 100in-ish 16:9 AT screen?
> 
> 
> 
> Thx,
> 
> Claude



Hi Claude! I am actually in Orlando FL at the moment on vacation with my family. The RS45 is my first projector, and I am thrilled with it, especially for the great AVS price. I have not seen Craig's RS55 yet, but he has seen my RS45, so he can compare the two for you. Although, when he was at my house, he seemed very impressed with the RS45's picture quality. I still stand by my comment that the black bars above and below the screen are so black that I could easily live with a 16:9 screen instead of a 2.35:1 - and I am a big fan of SciFi movies in space, and black starfields, so that's saying something! I still haven't decided for sure between 16:9 and 2.35:1, but I am seriously considering the larger 16:9 now. I was formerly set on a 2.35:1 and zooming with the lens memory before seeing the RS45 in action....


My current "temporary DIY screen" is 16:9 made with the Sheerweave AT material. it is 100" wide, and I am sitting 10' away. The Sheerweave material is not woven as tightly as newer materials, like the Seymour AV Center Stage XD material that I am considering. I can see some screen texture with the Sheerweave material at 10 feet. At 8 feet, you should definately consider better material like the Center Stage XD or Screen Excellence Enlightor 4K material for best results...


I am sensitive to rainbow effect too, and the JVC RS45 does NOT have ANY rainbows. (BTW, the RS55 doesn't either, since they are both DILA technology). And the RS45 is extremely quiet. I can't hear it at all from 4 feet away when it's running on "normal" (low lamp), and it's plenty bright for my 100" wide screen.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Great notes and info on front projector systems. One day I hope to be able to do that but for now that is not in the cards. But these JVC projectors sure seem to be great.


----------



## Bunga99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DMark1* /forum/post/21498996
> 
> 
> Hi Claude! I am actually in Orlando FL at the moment on vacation with my family. The RS45 is my first projector, and I am thrilled with it, especially for the great AVS price. I have not seen Craig's RS55 yet, but he has seen my RS45, so he can compare the two for you. Although, when he was at my house, he seemed very impressed with the RS45's picture quality. I still stand by my comment that the black bars above and below the screen are so black that I could easily live with a 16:9 screen instead of a 2.35:1 - and I am a big fan of SciFi movies in space, and black starfields, so that's saying something! I still haven't decided for sure between 16:9 and 2.35:1, but I am seriously considering the larger 16:9 now. I was formerly set on a 2.35:1 and zooming with the lens memory before seeing the RS45 in action....
> 
> 
> My current "temporary DIY screen" is 16:9 made with the Sheerweave AT material. it is 100" wide, and I am sitting 10' away. The Sheerweave material is not woven as tightly as newer materials, like the Seymour AV Center Stage XD material that I am considering. I can see some screen texture with the Sheerweave material at 10 feet. At 8 feet, you should definately consider better material like the Center Stage XD or Screen Excellence Enlightor 4K material for best results...
> 
> 
> I am sensitive to rainbow effect too, and the JVC RS45 does NOT have ANY rainbows. (BTW, the RS55 doesn't either, since they are both DILA technology). And the RS45 is extremely quiet. I can't hear it at all from 4 feet away when it's running on "normal" (low lamp), and it's plenty bright for my 100" wide screen.




Dennis,

Thank you so much for the wonderful feedback! I greatly appreciate it! It looks like I might have to keep this on my radar as a potential upgrade for this year!


Craig,

I apologize if I am high jacking your thread







but I really appreciate feedback from members like you DMark1 and Audioguy. Your enthusiasm for these new projectors really has my wheels turning over here. I definitely need to do some more research on them this year.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DMark1* /forum/post/21498996
> 
> 
> Hi Claude! I am actually in Orlando FL at the moment on vacation with my family. The RS45 is my first projector, and I am thrilled with it, especially for the great AVS price. I have not seen Craig's RS55 yet, but he has seen my RS45, so he can compare the two for you. Although, when he was at my house, he seemed very impressed with the RS45's picture quality.



The RS-55 looks very much like the RS-45 with a little more sharpness and smoothness. Whether that is valuable or not depends on the budget. I can honestly state that I could be perfectly happy with an RS-45.



> Quote:
> I still stand by my comment that the black bars above and below the screen are so black that I could easily live with a 16:9 screen instead of a 2.35:1 - and I am a big fan of SciFi movies in space, and black starfields, so that's saying something! I still haven't decided for sure between 16:9 and 2.35:1, but I am seriously considering the larger 16:9 now. I was formerly set on a 2.35:1 and zooming with the lens memory before seeing the RS45 in action....



You should come see the 2.35:1 image on my screen before you make this decision. I could be perfectly happy with your projector, but I wouldn't trade my 2.35:1 screen for anything, (unless it was a bigger/better 2.35:1 screen.) I can accept the black pillars on a 16:9 image much better than the black letterboxing on a 2.35:1 image. But that's just me.



> Quote:
> My current "temporary DIY screen" is 16:9 made with the Sheerweave AT material. it is 100" wide, and I am sitting 10' away. The Sheerweave material is not woven as tightly as newer materials, like the Seymour AV Center Stage XD material that I am considering. I can see some screen texture with the Sheerweave material at 10 feet. At 8 feet, you should definately consider better material like the Center Stage XD or Screen Excellence Enlightor 4K material for best results...



I could see the weave and the texture/pattern even further away when I stood behind your seating. A new screen with a better AT material will make a huge difference for you.



> Quote:
> I am sensitive to rainbow effect too, and the JVC RS45 does NOT have ANY rainbows. (BTW, the RS55 doesn't either, since they are both DILA technology). And the RS45 is extremely quiet. I can't hear it at all from 4 feet away when it's running on "normal" (low lamp), and it's plenty bright for my 100" wide screen.



Totally agree that LCoS doesn't exhibit rainbows. That's a DLP phenomenon.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/21501672
> 
> 
> Dennis,
> 
> Thank you so much for the wonderful feedback! I greatly appreciate it! It looks like I might have to keep this on my radar as a potential upgrade for this year!
> 
> 
> Craig,
> 
> I apologize if I am high jacking your thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but I really appreciate feedback from members like you DMark1 and Audioguy. Your enthusiasm for these new projectors really has my wheels turning over here. I definitely need to do some more research on them this year.



Claude, you're not hi-jacking my thread. We're discussing the technology in my theater. That's totally on-topic. Please feel free to continue the discussion.










BTW, your room, you may not want a 100" screen. 92" might be more than big enough. My first screen was 92", and it had tremendous "WOW" factor. At a seating distance of 8', a 92" screen would be huge and immersive. I think your bigger problem will be throw distance, especially if your CC is behind the screen. Unless you have some space behind you to get the projector further away than right overhead, you may not have enough "throw distance" for even a 92" screen. Try this calculator:
http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com/ 

I think you would need a minimum of 9' 2" from the front of the lens to the screen for a 92" diagonal image.


Craig


----------



## FOH

Craig, wow, what a great post!


I very much appreciate the time, just makes me salivate for a big immersive experience such as yours. Our A/V room is somewhat different, as it's in use essentially every waking hour of the day. A modest room, kitchen at one end and HT at the other, throw in multiple PC workstations and windows,... it presents a different set of obstacles. _However_, you're making me contemplate a retractable, front projection rig. With seating varying from 8 feet, to about 11 feet (I just measured), and a door at the business end of the HT, again added logistics to consider.


The new 65" plasma serves us well for now, as with windows etc., we've got a modest amount of light. A screen for night-time movie watching would be nice for sure. My primary HT focus has been audio. My mains are all in a row, directly above the display,...now not behind the screen, but quite optimized non-the less. The mains elevation seems fine, but as you stated, I know no different without hearing an AT config in the space.


Thanks again, good luck with the JVC install (how bout that Oppo packaging?)


Later


----------



## Bunga99

Craig,


Thanks again for your fantastic input/feedback! I dont know that much about projection yet so it looks like I have some research ahead of me if I choose to go down this route later. The much bigger screen, Kuro type picture and lack of rainbow effect all seems So Tempting


----------



## MIkeDuke

Craig, don't forget to make sure your front page equipment list is up to date with the changes you made.


----------



## Mike Garrett




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bunga99* /forum/post/21496962
> 
> 
> These new projectors sound Amazing! You guys have me intrigued to say the least. I love my Kuro and probably won't upgrade anytime soon (I've heard that before) but I have to ask the following questions for you, DMark1 and Audioguy (please). I am probably going to have to stay with RS45 if I ever do upgrade as I can't afford the 55 anytime soon.
> 
> 
> My room is very small and I would sit approximately 8ft away from the screen. Assuming you all have 20/20 vision, do you notice any screen door effect or woven pattern sitting 7-8ft from your AT screen?
> 
> 
> In my room, the projector would probably be mounted about 4ft above my head. Do you guys notice any fan noise or any noise from the projector after it's been running for a bit from 4ft away?
> 
> 
> I love the size and picture you can get from a DLP rear projection set or projector but the rainbow effect bugs me. I can notice rainbow effect in a heartbeat even when I'm not looking for it; it rears its ugly face. Do you guys have the same issue and does any of the new JVC have that issue?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed Dennis mentioned this ^
> 
> Do you guys feel the same that black bars are so inky that they disappeared? If I ever do upgrade, I'd probably go the same route with a 100in-ish 16:9 AT screen?
> 
> 
> 
> Thx,
> 
> Claude



With an 8' viewing distance, I would go with the Enlightor 4K. From 8' you will be able to see the weave of Center Stage. I saw the weave every now and then at 11'. I moved my seating to 10' and switched to Enlightor 4K and now the screen just disappears.


----------



## Bunga99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AV Science Sales 5* /forum/post/21624875
> 
> 
> With an 8' viewing distance, I would go with the Enlightor 4K. From 8' you will be able to see the weave of Center Stage. I saw the weave every now and then at 11'. I moved my seating to 10' and switched to Enlightor 4K and now the screen just disappears.



Thanks Mike!


I think I am gonna stick with my Kuro plasma for now but this is good info to know!



Thx again!

Claude


----------



## mrcoop

very nice...I have told so many people that a black wall where your screen goes has an amazing affect...no matter what type of display you have...it looks like the image is just floating...I never had the ability to hide the speakers/sub behind the screen, yet when the lights go out, you can't even see them up against the black wall.


Nice room! Wish I had room to move the screen forward to put the center channel behind the screen.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Craig, I have a request to ask. Immortals is not a horrible movie. The audio is fantastic but I would like you feedback on its video. On my plasma, it looked stunning. However, there were parts that were extremly dark and black. So much so that I could just about make out the people in the scene. There were quite a few of them. It would be great if you could check out the movie and just report back if the blacks were almost super black. I mean, this could be one of the darkest movies I have ever watched on my TV. I know it's probably wrong, but I wondering how it would look in Vivid mode. Just a thought.

Thanks


----------



## SeaNile

Great setup. I haven't been on this site much lately but when I see/read stuff like this the first thing that comes to my mind is upgrading!


----------



## maciejj

Hi guys, you are talking just about a specific problem. All of you own a house or a flat. I am renting an aparment and right now the renting company decided to paint my apartment again after 17 years. I own Panasonic PT-AE4000 projector and do not use a screen anymore. The main reason is an automatic projector's zooming which is awesome. My walls are painted not in a quite white color, but something like that. Very light Green, very light yellow, ... Fortunately 1600 lumens is enought to get a great picture. With my 120" white screen the picture was a little brighter, but still the wall is fine. So, the question - may I suggest to the painters to mix the paint with someting, for this particular wall, without the color changing and to get a little better effect?


----------



## pokekevin

Craig,


I remember reading that you used to have AT 8200e's. How are the Triad Plats compared to those?


----------



## DMark1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin* /forum/post/22066234
> 
> 
> Craig,
> 
> 
> I remember reading that you used to have AT 8200e's. How are the Triad Plats compared to those?



Hi Pokevin, I'm a friend of Craig's and I'm sure he will give you a more detailed response, but I can say that from my POV, there is absolutely no contest - the Triad Platinum LCRs are in a whole 'nuther universe, chock full 'O goodness compared to the ATs.


The ATs weren't bad, but the Platinums are so much better in every way you can evaluate a speaker. Also, the Triad Silver surrounds and wides he uses blend so well, it just extends that Platinum bubble all around you - giving you a totally immersive effect. Craig's system is definately world class with the Platinums as his mains.


That's my opinion, anyway.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I hope to hear the difference myself at one point. The AT system sounded great but just reading about the Triads I can guess that the changes would be great and for the better


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin* /forum/post/22066234
> 
> 
> Craig,
> 
> 
> I remember reading that you used to have AT 8200e's. How are the Triad Plats compared to those?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DMark1* /forum/post/22068011
> 
> 
> Hi Pokevin, I'm a friend of Craig's and I'm sure he will give you a more detailed response, but I can say that from my POV, there is absolutely no contest - the Triad Platinum LCRs are in a whole 'nuther universe, chock full 'O goodness compared to the ATs.
> 
> 
> The ATs weren't bad, but the Platinums are so much better in every way you can evaluate a speaker. Also, the Triad Silver surrounds and wides he uses blend so well, it just extends that Platinum bubble all around you - giving you a totally immersive effect. Craig's system is definately world class with the Platinums as his mains.
> 
> 
> That's my opinion, anyway.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke* /forum/post/22069553
> 
> 
> I hope to hear the difference myself at one point. The AT system sounded great but just reading about the Triads I can guess that the changes would be great and for the better



Hi guys,


I was away for the holiday weekend and just saw these posts. Thanks!


Pokekevin, when I had my AT 8200e's I really liked them. They had plenty of output and very "accurate" sound. I sold them to another forum member, and I'm sure they went to a great home!










Nonetheless, I totally agree with Dennis' enthusiasm for the Triad Platinums. They are absolutely the best speakers I've ever had in my theater. In fact, they are among the best speakers I've ever heard. The dynamics, output capability and high level of detail and articulation is as good as anything I've ever heard. They are smooth, crisp and refined at virtually any output level you ask of them. I haven't found their limits yet, (although I have found mine.







)


It seems almost unfair to compare the Plat's to the AT 8200e's. The Plats are more than 3X the price of the AT's. However, in many ways they are similar, and if you just looked at the speakers, they don't look that different:

*Triad's:*









*Atlantic Technology 8200e's:*










In addition to the WMTMW alignment, they share some of the same design goals: high output capability, limited vertical dispersion with wide horizontal dispersion, sealed cabinet design, "LCR" design philosophy, etc. The AT's are THX Ultra2 certified, which specifies many of these parameters. The Triads are not THX certified, but they could easily pass the Ultra2 test; they've been designed to meet... and go well beyond... the THX Ultra2 spec. Triad has had many lesser speaker designs get THX certification, so they know the design goals and philosophy's. The Plat's easily meet the design goals for THX certification, yet they go well beyond the THX requirements for output.


I really love the treble produced by the tweeters. They are a very unique design, mating a Seas silk-dome driver with a unique "dispersion lens." The lens has some CNC-cut, articulated "steps" that reduce "HOM's, (high order modes), which are inherent in many other "horn" designs:











Each "step" in the lens has a different dimension. It's hard to see in the above pic, but it's easier to see in an angled view of the CC from above:











I really like the sound of silk dome tweeters. Improving both it's sensitivity and it's dispersion with a well designed "lens" improves it's sound quality AND it's overall output... without any degradation that I can hear.


The Scan-Speak Revelator midrange drivers are some of the best drivers available. They are modified to Triad's specifications, and they yield spectacular midrange clarity, with incredible dynamics. Speech intelligibility is the best I've ever heard. Across the entire midrange, I would describe the sound as extremely "accurate." These midrange drivers don't add or subtract anything from the sound.


The dual 10" woofers are also Scan Speak drivers. They provide incredibly full, solid bass down to the transition point to the subwoofers. As an "LCR" design, they are designed to be used with subwoofer(s). Paul Scarpelli specifically e-mailed me to tell me that they are designed for use with 80 Hz crossovers. This, in spite of them having dual 10", high excursion drivers. Triad gets an extra 3 dB of sensitivity out of the entire speaker by designing the woofers to roll off at 60 Hz. They could certainly design them to extend an octave or more lower, but at the expense of overall sensitivity. Since Triad *expects* them to be used with sub(s), they design them for a higher roll-off, and the advantage is increased sensitivity. The Plat's are 94.5 dB/1 watt/1 meter... a very good spec, although not a ultra-high sensitivity design like some others. Instead they have very high power handling; 500 watts. The combination of good sensitivity with high power handling yields very high SPL capability and excellent dynamics. Of course, they benefit from strong amplification, and my Earthquake Cinenova fills that requirement with aplomb.


There are some significant differences between the AT's and the Triad speakers that directly impact the price and the performance, principally the driver compliment and the build quality. The most significant driver compliment differences are the 8" woofers in the AT's vs 10" woofers in the Triads. My sense is that the Triad/Scan Speak drivers are not only larger, they also have higher excursion. The result is much more air movement capability, which nets better mid and upper bass response in the range above the crossover point to the subs. The Triads have seemingly unlimited, and massively powerful, output in the 80 to 300/400 Hz range. This range is the "fundamental" range for many sounds, including human voices and many musical instruments.
http://www.independentrecording.net/...in_display.htm 

The AT's are good in this same range, but the Triads are just much better. They have a power and "authority" in this range that is unmatched by the AT's, and most other speakers, IME.


The other major difference is the dispersion lens loading of the tweeters. Both the Triads and the AT use silk dome tweeters, and I really like the sound of silk domes. I prefer this sound to the sound of metal domes or compression drivers. The silk domes with dispersion lenses remind me of ribbon tweeters but with higher output capability and a larger sweet spot.


Finally, the build quality of the Platinum's is a giant step up from the AT's. The Plat cabinets, at 135 lbs., weigh almost 2.5x the AT's at 53 lbs. The Plat's are much more massively overbuilt. This results in a more neutral, resonance-free, "quiet" cabinet. The sound of the drivers is unaffected by additional "sound" from the cabinets. My Seaton Submersive HP subwoofers are dual-opposed designs. This design concept virtually eliminates cabinet resonance. The Plat's extend this philosophy to the speakers.


Bottom line: I thoroughly enjoyed my time with the AT 8200e's. They did everything their THX Ultra2 certification guaranteed they would. At their pricepoint, I think they are very difficult to beat. I think they work very well for both movies and music, especially MC music. I can highly recommend them... at their pricepoint.


Nonetheless, the Plat's go well beyond the capabilities of the AT's... as they should at a much higher pricepoint. The Plat's are significantly more powerful in the mid- and upper-bass. The midrange is stronger and more accurate, and they also have more transparent and detailed treble. Frankly, I couldn't be happier with my current system. I have no reason to upgrade, nor any desire to do so.


Thanks for asking!










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

Great feed back Craig. I have been to the Triad website a number of times and I can tell that they are really top quality speakers. I am also sure that they sound great for music and movies. They also look great. I hope to hear them at some point. So again, I am sure you are more than happy with them. I also understand about getting a great deal







. They do look quite imposing on from your pics. I am glad that you are set now for speakers. It's a good feeling. I am probably set unless sometihing really wows me. But have fun with your setup.


----------



## Bunga99

I agree Mike - this is an excellent write up/comparison. I really enjoyed it and the pics too!









Fantastic job, Craig!


----------



## pokekevin

Excellent write up! If I could afford the Plats I'd go for them but I think I'll have to settle for the 8200e!


----------



## JimP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin* /forum/post/22096595
> 
> 
> Excellent write up! If I could afford the Plats I'd go for them but I think I'll have to settle for the 8200e!



I have made the mistake of reading his well written post and am now thinking about getting 6 of the platinum LRs and a CC. Time to short some stocks.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin* /forum/post/22096595
> 
> 
> Excellent write up! If I could afford the Plats I'd go for them but I think I'll have to settle for the 8200e!



That is hardly "settling". I predict you will *love* them. I thoroughly enjoyed mine. They were a huge upgrade over the Klipsch RB-75's I had before them.










Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/22096607
> 
> 
> I have made the mistake of reading his well written post and am now thinking about getting 6 of the platinum LRs and a CC. Time to short some stocks.



If the budget allows, the Platinums are just awesome. I don't know how to "short" stocks, but if it allows a Triad Platinum purchase, I'm all ears!










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22096595
> 
> 
> Excellent write up! If I could afford the Plats I'd go for them but I think I'll have to settle for the 8200e!


I can agree with what Craig said his AT setup sounded fantastic and I don't think it would "settling" to get the 8200e's for a HT system.


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/150#post_22081882
> 
> *Triad's:*


Hi Craig,


For others who may be inclined to Platinums, especially likely after that great review, just wondering why not use another of the LCR units for the center, instead of the horizontally configured one, being that in the AT setup all are hidden from view. I'm sure they are sonically well matched in either case, but was there some particular reason?


----------



## pokekevin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22112728
> 
> 
> Hi Craig,
> 
> For others who may be inclined to Platinums, especially likely after that great review, just wondering why not use another of the LCR units for the center, instead of the horizontally configured one, being that in the AT setup all are hidden from view. I'm sure they are sonically well matched in either case, but was there some particular reason?



It was too expensive nib. He bought the speakers used and the previous owner only had the center . I believe that's right?


----------



## JimP

You also have the issue of horizontal dispersion of the tweeter. I'd think you'd want a CC instead of a LR for center channel duty.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22113053
> 
> 
> It was too expensive nib. He bought the speakers used and the previous owner only had the center . I believe that's right?


From what I remember Craig saying, this is correct. But I think his first choice may have been three speakers that were the same. Again, I am guessing here.


----------



## Roger Dressler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22113053
> 
> 
> It was too expensive nib. He bought the speakers used and the previous owner only had the center . I believe that's right?


That makes perfect sense.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22113289
> 
> 
> You also have the issue of horizontal dispersion of the tweeter. I'd think you'd want a CC instead of a LR for center channel duty.


That doesn't.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22112728
> 
> 
> Hi Craig,
> 
> For others who may be inclined to Platinums, especially likely after that great review, just wondering why not use another of the LCR units for the center, instead of the horizontally configured one, being that in the AT setup all are hidden from view. I'm sure they are sonically well matched in either case, but was there some particular reason?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22113053
> 
> 
> It was too expensive nib. He bought the speakers used and the previous owner only had the center . I believe that's right?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22113679
> 
> 
> From what I remember Craig saying, this is correct. But I think his first choice may have been three speakers that were the same. Again, I am guessing here.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Roger Dressler*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22114363
> 
> 
> That makes perfect sense.


Hi Roger,


I just returned from vacation and saw these posts. As Kevin and Mike said, I bought the speakers used, and the set came with a CC. My preference would have been for a 3rd LCR, but beggars can't be choosers.







My previous Atlantic Technology system was 3 identical LCR's across the front soundstage:

 


That system was solid, seamless and very cohesive. The exact timbre-match of 3 identical speakers, all mounted at the same, ear-height, is the ideal front soundstage, and that system exhibited all the ideal properties associated with that arrangement.


The Triad Platinum CC gets as close to the ideal as possible with a horizontally arranged speaker. It uses the exact same drivers, in the exact same internal volume box, with the exact same alignment of the MTM as the LCR. The crossover is slightly tweaked to account for the horizontal arrangement of the woofers, but otherwise it's the exact same speaker. On axis, it measures very similar to the LCR:
http://www.hometheater.com/content/triad-inroom-platinum-speaker-system-measurements 

Nonetheless, as you can also see from those measurements, it does exhibit some of the usual off axis anomalies associated with horizontally aligned speakers, especially in the 200 to ~600 Hz range:

 
*Fig.3: Platinum Center, pseudo-anechoic response at 45° (red) and 60° (blue) off-axis in the horizontal plane.*


It's not a huge deal to me because I do all my critical listening on-axis, in the sweet spot, and it sounds fine there. I know only a few people who would have any idea what to listen for if they were sitting off-axis. When they're here, I give 'em the sweet spot.







(although, honestly, on those occasions when I do sit of-axis, I always surprised at how good the system sounds in those less-than-ideal LP's)


More importantly, as you can see from the picture you linked above, I have all 3 tweeters mounted at the exact same height. When Dennis and I built the stands, we were very precise about the height of the CC stand to make sure we got the tweeters aligned perfectly. This is probably more important than the horizontal arrangement of the speaker. The central image is exactly where it needs to be to solidify the front soundstage. So many people mount their CC above or below their display. That, to me, is a bigger compromise than a horizontally aranged center speaker.


I was skeptical about CC before I bought this set, but I was fortunate to get an in-home audition of the the speakers before I purchased. I think it took about 3 minutes for me to make up my mind. I put on Dire Straits, _Money For Nothing_, MC SACD. When the drums came in, the hair on my neck stood up, I got goosebumps and couldn't breathe. It was almost scary how incredible it sounded. We listened to a bunch of other stuff before I told the guy I would take them... but I _*knew*_ right away.










Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22113289
> 
> 
> You also have the issue of horizontal dispersion of the tweeter. I'd think you'd want a CC instead of a LR for center channel duty.


Hi Jim,


A horizontally aligned speaker will exhibit response anomalies that a vertically aligned speaker won't exhibit. See the Stereophile measurements I linked in the above post. 3 identical, vertically aligned speakers, all mounted at the same height and aimed at the listening position is absolutely the best possible front soundstage. A horizontal CC is a compromise, any way you look at it.


Craig


----------



## pokekevin

hey Im using the same stands you have for my system 450 e







well the ones you used with your 8200s


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22129957
> 
> 
> hey Im using the same stands you have for my system 450 e
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well the ones you used with your 8200s


Yeah, they're great stands. They weren't rated to handle the weight of the 8200e's, but they did just fine. They were a little "tippy", but with the screen down, no one got near them anyway.










Craig


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22130258
> 
> 
> They were a little "tippy", but with the screen down, no one got near them anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



I've had that problem before when I exceeded my allotment of two glasses of wine!


I still want to get up there and hear the "tied-for-first" (







)world's best home theater system. My only concern is I might end up liking "wides" and then I have to convince the bride that Mark Seaton needs more of my money!!


Or worse yet, wanting to put my center channel behind my screen. THAT would be serious, serious, serious money !!


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22147312
> 
> 
> I've had that problem before when I exceeded my allotment of two glasses of wine!


Lightweight!!!










> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22147312
> 
> 
> I still want to get up there and hear the "tied-for-first" (
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )world's best home theater system. My only concern is I might end up liking "wides" and then I have to convince the bride that Mark Seaton needs more of my money!!


You're welcome, Mark.










> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22147312
> 
> 
> Or worse yet, wanting to put my center channel behind my screen. THAT would be serious, serious, serious money !!


That would be money well spent. Not only would you get the dialogue to the proper location, you would get that CC standing up vertically. And it wouldn't be all that expensive, (relatively speaking), if you used a motorized, drop-down screen, like mine. OTOH, if you wanted to build a false wall, that would start run into some serious change.










Craig


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22148113
> 
> 
> That would be money well spent. Not only would you get the dialogue to the proper location, you would get that CC standing up vertically. And it wouldn't be all that expensive, (relatively speaking), if you used a motorized, drop-down screen, like mine. OTOH, if you wanted to build a false wall, that would start run into some serious change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



I already have the false wall. There is about 18 inches between it and the real wall and the Catalyst is only about 14 inches deep if I recall. The cost is the new screen material, modifying the existing false wall and building some kind of support for the speaker and then figuring out how to power it up since I would no longer have access to the power switch on the rear. I really don't have any desire for a drop down screen but without it, getting to the center speakers (e.g repair) would be ugly at best (e.g removing the screen and frame from the wall)


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22148113
> 
> 
> That would be money well spent. Not only would you get the dialogue to the proper location, you would get that CC standing up vertically. And it wouldn't be all that expensive, (relatively speaking), if you used a motorized, drop-down screen, like mine. OTOH, if you wanted to build a false wall, that would start run into some serious change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



I already have the false wall. There is about 18 inches between it and the real wall and the Catalyst is only about 14 inches deep if I recall. The cost is the new screen material, modifying the existing false wall and building some kind of support for the speaker and then figuring out how to power it up since I would no longer have access to the power switch on the rear. I really don't have any desire for a drop down screen but without it, getting to the center speakers (e.g repair) would be ugly at best (e.g removing the screen and frame from the wall).


I guess I need to ask in some other forums how those who have center channels behind fixed screens access the speaker? (My wife is going to kill me)


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22148209
> 
> 
> I already have the false wall. There is about 18 inches between it and the real wall and the Catalyst is only about 14 inches deep if I recall. The cost is the new screen material, modifying the existing false wall and building some kind of support for the speaker and then figuring out how to power it up since I would no longer have access to the power switch on the rear. I really don't have any desire for a drop down screen but without it, getting to the center speakers (e.g repair) would be ugly at best (e.g removing the screen and frame from the wall).
> 
> I guess I need to ask in some other forums how those who have center channels behind fixed screens access the speaker? (My wife is going to kill me)



Borrowing a pic from your thread, is the false wall the black wall behind the speakers?

 


Is that acoustically transparent? I always thought it was acoustic *treatments*. Also, remember, if you move your speakers closer to the back wall, you'll magnify the SBIR off that wall. Audyssey may be able to deal with it... maybe not.


Craig


----------



## audioguy

Third attempt!!


Here is the false wall being built. The fake wall was built to get the length of the room to be what the room designer wanted:

 


False wall with screen on it (previous speakers):

 


I then added acoustic treatment to (a) remove the effects of the hard surfaced walls and (b) hide the masking system. It sits about 5 inches in front of the fake wall. It is anything but acoustically transparent as the top and bottom are 1 inch Owens 703 and the sides are 1 inch RPG BAD Panels.

 


I believe I could easily cut into the center of the fake wall behind the screen and place the Catalyst but really don't know how I would access it for repairs or anything else without taking the entire screen down. I might also want to cut a larger opening so that I could weather/moister seal those windows since the back of the Catalyst would be very close to it.


As I post these pictures and think about what would need to be done to make this work, I get cold sweats. Maybe I won't come to visit after all










I also have no interest in moving the left and right speaker any closer to the front wall. Soundstage depth would go in the toilet plus this is where I get reasonably good FR prior to Audyssey.


----------



## Brad Horstkotte




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22148209
> 
> 
> I guess I need to ask in some other forums how those who have center channels behind fixed screens access the speaker? (My wife is going to kill me)



In my case, piano hinges:












> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22148375
> 
> 
> also, remember, if you move your speakers closer to the back wall, you'll magnify the SBIR off that wall.



But you also raise the frequencies that it affects, which makes it easier to treat with absorption.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Brad Horstkotte*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22148687
> 
> 
> In my case, piano hinges:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you also raise the frequencies that it affects, which makes it easier to treat with absorption.



I never thought about piano hinges but I would still need to think through it as I have a masking system attached to the screen. Thanks.


Does your screen hang free at the bottom or is it attached somenow?


----------



## Brad Horstkotte

Just hangs, and fits snugly against panels at the bottom and sides


----------



## MIkeDuke

Well, I spent a nice afternoon over at Craig's house yesterday. It was the first time I have been over since the changes were made. The chairs are very comfy. Plus, I have to admit, the auto recline is pretty cool. The picture from that projector is just sick. But I will get to that in a sec. First we listened to some music. It sounded really good. With all of the speakers going you were really envolped in the music. It was quite cool. So we did that for a little while. Then Craig put on Avatar. Holy crap did that look fantastic. The colors and clarity were out of this world. Plus, with a picture as big as Craig has, it only adds to the experience. Also, the sound from that movie was so good it was scary. The motion arround the room plus the clarity of the dialog plus the bass made it quite the moive watching experience. We watched about an hour and a half of that. Then we switched movies to Star Trek. That also was just insane. The black start field with the ship against was so good looking. Plus with this movie, Craig was able to fill the entire screen with the picture. I was really impressed. Plus the audio was just so dynamic and clear. We listend to -3db all day and it was not a strain at all. So I can say without restraint, that Craig has put together one of the best HT I have ever experienced. It was a fun day. Then I went back to my room and watched TFDOTM. It sounded great but going down to a 42in TV made me







.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22182146
> 
> 
> Well, I spent a nice afternoon over at Craig's house yesterday. It was the first time I have been over since the changes were made.


Yes, it was a great afternoon.







We don't do this often enough.



> Quote:
> The chairs are very comfy. Plus, I have to admit, the auto recline is pretty cool.


I really like these Acoustic Innovations chairs. They're comfy and attractive. I'm glad you liked them.



> Quote:
> First we listened to some music. It sounded really good. With all of the speakers going you were really envolped in the music. It was quite cool. So we did that for a little while.


The DSX Wides do add a sense of envelopment that seems "missing" when it's turned off. The "gap" between the front soundstage and the side surrounds is filled in and the whole soundfield becomes more immersive and enveloping. It works best with multi-channel music and that's what we listened to. With the limited time we had, we didn't get to listen to any 2-channel. We'll do that next time.











> Quote:
> The picture from that projector is just sick. But I will get to that in a sec.





> Quote:
> Then Craig put on Avatar. Holy crap did that look fantastic. The colors and clarity were out of this world. Plus, with a picture as big as Craig has, it only adds to the experience. Also, the sound from that movie was so good it was scary. The motion arround the room plus the clarity of the dialog plus the bass made it quite the moive watching experience. We watched about an hour and a half of that. Then we switched movies to Star Trek. That also was just insane. The black start field with the ship against was so good looking. Plus with this movie, Craig was able to fill the entire screen with the picture. I was really impressed. Plus the audio was just so dynamic and clear. We listend to -3db all day and it was not a strain at all. So I can say without restraint, that Craig has put together one of the best HT I have ever experienced. It was a fun day.


Thanks Mike!!! It was a fun day. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself. And your kind words mean a lot because I know how passionate you are about this hobby of ours.


> Quote:
> Then I went back to my room and watched TFDOTM. It sounded great but going down to a 42in TV made me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Well, as with anything else, quality is always more important than quantity. The picture quality on your display is second to none. I would take an excellent, smaller picture over a mediocre, larger picture any day. So, instead of this:







, you should have this:







. IOW, just enjoy what you have because it's darn good!.










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Craig. OK. I will turn that







upside down







. I do like the way my picture looks. I really think that it is very clear and clean. If I watch Avatar on my TV, I am impressed with how it looks. But, I will say that watching it on your screen just added more, And I don't mean just the bigger picture. There are points in Avatar where they have scrolling words or infomation on their screens in the movie. Like when they do the video log. On you big screen, I could see all that very clearly. It was very cool to be able to read that. It really brought you into the movie more. On my TV, while the picture is simply stunning, scenes like that lose their impact a bit because I can't read everything. I can read some things, but not all. That's all I meant. But I figure I make up for that on the audio side so it sort of evens out.


I agree that it would great if we could do this more often. I was really close to asking about just 2ch but I know how much you like using the MC stuff so I figured we could just stick with that. I know this is your thread but I will give a quick update for me here. Do you remember what I said about the chiars moving. I said something like "wow, those Crowsons really feel good. But not like mine." You asked something like "are yours more?" I answered "Nope, yours are." Then we had a little chat about it. When I came home i just moved it up a smidge because as we said, that amp is very sensitive. Well, when I watched TFDOTM, I could tell that little bit made a difference. Now I really like the way it feels. I am going to double check but I still may be just below 3. Anyway, I hope we can do this again







.


----------



## DMark1

Hi Craig and Mike. Next time you come up, we'll have to spend some time at my theater too. It's not quite up to Craig's system, but it's slowly getting there.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Dennis, I would love to hear your theater. Too bad we could not meet up this past time. If I remember correctly, the only "not there" part are the subs. I think you have your Legacy speakers, great electronics, projector and screen. All you need are maybe more treatments, your subs, and if you want them, dedicated theater chairs. But I am sure your system also kicks butt. It's a little bit of a haul but it is fun when I can find time to do it. I would like to check out your system when you think it may be further along. Maybe with your subs? Are you going to order Seaton SubMersive subs? I can imagine though that those Legacy speakers are quite dynamic as well. Anyway, I had a great afternoon







.


----------



## dRwOOD73

Looks like I found the Eastern/Lancaster PA crowd, glad to see some folks in my neck of the woods.. just thought I'd say hi.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dRwOOD73*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22184160
> 
> 
> Looks like I found the Eastern/Lancaster PA crowd, glad to see some folks in my neck of the woods.. just thought I'd say hi.



Hi! We have a little group here in Central PA, with forum members from York and Lancaster. Mike lives northeast of Philly, but we get together once in a while too. If you have an interest in joining us sometime, let me know and I'll include you in our next GTG.


Craig


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22096607
> 
> 
> 
> I have made the mistake of reading his well written post and am now thinking about getting 6 of the platinum LRs and a CC. Time to short some stocks.



You need to call me for a "road trip" when you install those bad boys !!


----------



## MIkeDuke

Trust me, 3 up front plus the sides and surrounds that Criag has is PLEANTY







. They are pretty big and hefty when you see them in person as well.


----------



## dRwOOD73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/200_50#post_22184182
> 
> 
> Hi! We have a little group here in Central PA, with forum members from York and Lancaster. Mike lives northeast of Philly, but we get together once in a while too. If you have an interest in joining us sometime, let me know and I'll include you in our next GTG.
> 
> Craig



That sounds great, although I am nowhere near where most of you guys are ( HT & gear-wise)... I come here mainly to aspire and mentally note ideas for future reference... our current home is just not HT friendly, but we hope to be in the market in the next two years or so.


Important Disclaimer; I am an avid Chicago Bears fan - thought I'd get that out of the way after seeing your avatar.. lol


----------



## FOH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/180#post_22182146
> 
> 
> Well, I spent a nice afternoon over at Craig's house yesterday....



Sounds nice Mike, Craig. Thanks for taking the time to share.


When spending so much time in this hobby around one's own system, then getting the opportunity to spend a nice relaxed audition at another enthusiast's home, I always enjoy analyzing and attempting to quantify the audible differences. Clearly, it seems Craig's screen and projection system are very nice. But focusing on the audio side of things, I would really enjoy reading Mike's impressions about the differences between the two systems; his own and Craig's.


They both have SubM bottom end, w/tactile transducers. However, with the other factors like decay characteristics dominating how we perceive the bass range, I'd very much enjoy reading Mike's take on the various perceived differences. Also, the critical midband and HF, and how each system is voiced and how each room translates the experience to the listener. I realize the rooms couldn't be much different. But there's much to be said for both. Mike's near-field/mid-field scenario, with the outstanding Focals very likely convey an incredible image. Likewise, Craig's much larger, wider room, in addition to the 60 degree wides creates an interesting tool to the experience as well I'm sure.


So Mike, any more descriptors about differences? Image specificity and clarity over immersiveness and envelopment? All of the above?



Thanks again for sharing...


----------



## MIkeDuke

I can only try. When I use certain words, please do not think that I am using them in a disparaging way. I will start with my own system. My speakers are maybe 91db sensitive and really are full range in my room. I know I can listen with the sub on(for music), but more often then not, I just listen to music in bypass mode. Unless it is a MC SACD or DVD-A. I ocasionally listen in one of the multi-channel modes of the Integra but I guess I am just stubborn







. My system, IMHO, presents the music in a more "calm" way then compared to Craig's Triads. Forget about the dynamics, in which there is no comparison between the two, Craig "wins" that one hands down. If you look back in my thread at my measurements, you will find that they are very good. I think they even surprised Craig, The RT time really was a shock to him I think. I am right on the money with the RT measurement so the decay is probably as good as I can get in this room. That gives the entire sound, highs to bass an incredible "presence" and start stop feeling. The music and movie effects just start and stop on a dime. At least I think they do.


Now, I have Dire Straits Brothers in arms as a remastered CD and Craig has it as a SACD so it is not a true comparison. I really like the way this CD sounds on my system. I can get a great sound stage and the instruments all sound real and correct. I really can't hear anything wrong with the way it plays the CD. In bypass mode or regular stereo mode. I can say that another CD I have, TOOL 10,000 days, often fools me into thinking my surrounds are on even when I know I am listening in bypass mode. That's how good of an image I can get. Now, in Craig's system, it is a whole different kettle of fish. His system has a clarity that I have rarely heard on any system, even my own. That Brothers in Arms SACD was just magnificent on his system. Since I think it was a MC SACD, the sound filling the room was remarkable. The Vocals coming from that center were some of the best and cleanest I have ever heard. Here is an interesting tidbit that I did not mention before. When we first started, Craig did not realize that something was amiss with one of his amps. It turns out we were first only listening to the silver wide speakers he had and no center. I have to say, with music, that sounded pretty good. But then when he realized the problem and fixed it, and we were running the Plats, well, I think you can guess the results. But again, if I were to try and compare my system to his, it is still hard to do. I really like the sonic signature of my speakers. If we move to movies, you can again hear the difference.


Craig's speakers just keep on going louder with no problem at all. That center is simply fantastic. Spoken words are just so damn clean and clear. Now in my room, with movies, I still like how my speakers sound and I think Craig would also agree that they sound very good. But mine would probably give up the ghost at really really high levels. Lucky for me, my room is small enough that my Focal's get plenty loud before I can hear any breakup. In Craig's room, having 9 speakers around the room just puts you in the middle of the music or movie. It is quite the experience. Now don't get me wrong, I still really like my system and I love the way it sounds. But Craig's system is just that much above mine as putting you in the action. But, for movies, I can get close to that as well I think in my small room. They obviously sound different. The Triads are more "direct" and crisp as compared to my Focal speakers. At least, that's the best way I can explain it. I am not as good at describing "mid range" sound and the like. I think the fact that my speakers were designed ported and full range make them sound much different than Craig's speakers which were not meant to be full range and are sealed. Craig's speakers have more snap to them then mine. Not that mine are soft in the mid range. I think vocals and any instruments that are located in that area of sound are really well represented by my speakers. But Craig's speakers being able to play louder and not as low, present the mid range in a different way.


Even in Craig's large room, when we were only listening to the other speakers and not the center, the sound stage was quite good. That is one area where I think there is not much difference in our systems. I have fooled myself many times into thinking the center was on when it was not. Even though Craig's room is much bigger, and his mains are further apart, he too can get a very nice center phantom effect. I know this is long but I still have a bit more to say







. Regarding bass. In my room, the bass is first rate, IMHO. Craig did a fantastic job calibrating the sub. It just fills the room. Adding the Crowson was the icing on the cake. Now it is even a better, more fun experience for me. Craig's bass system is just plain sick. He is on a concrete floor so the SubMersive are on a concrete floor but his chairs and Crowson are on a riser that he built. Because he has an older amp, I think he can crank his Butt Kicker amp a little higher then I can so the tactile effect is "more" than what I get. I still get it and enjoy it, but I am afraid to put it much above 3 on the amp for fear of burning the Crowson out again. I have it right below 3 and I do get a nice sensation at that level. I may try to put it right at three because truthfully, my amp is more sensitive then his and even the slightest movement on the level makes an impact. So as far as bass goes, I am closer with the Crowson in my room but really, watching Avatar had me saying "Anybody who has an issue with the bass in this movie needs to watch it here." I think that's about it. In summary, I think Craig would agree that both of our systems are really good even though they present the media in different ways. I hope Craig chimes in on my thoughts as well.

Edit for a few grammar corrections.


----------



## Bunga99

Mike,


That was one helluva nice comparison write up!! I very much enjoyed reading them both (this and the first one you did earlier)! Great Job! I have no doubts both of your rooms must sound *phenomenal*!!


Thx,

Claude


----------



## MIkeDuke

Thanks Claude. I tried my best. I know that there are people much more knowledgeable then me about systems. The hows and the whys they do what they do. I don't know all of the technical stuff that many here do so I have to do my best and explain it in terms that I know how to use. So, I do what I can do and I explain things the best way I know how,


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/210#post_22195606
> 
> 
> I can only try.


Try??? Mike, that was one hell of an effort.







There's not a lot I can add to that. I just throw a few things out there.


> Quote:
> When I use certain words, please do not think that I am using them in a disparaging way. I will start with my own system. My speakers are maybe 91db sensitive and really are full range in my room. I know I can listen with the sub on(for music), but more often then not, I just listen to music in bypass mode. Unless it is a MC SACD or DVD-A. I ocasionally listen in one of the multi-channel modes of the Integra but I guess I am just stubborn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . My system, IMHO, presents the music in a more "calm" way then compared to Craig's Triads. Forget about the dynamics, in which there is no comparison between the two, Craig "wins" that one hands down.


IMO, you give your own system too little credit. The beryllium tweeters in your speakers are very dynamic. Their extremely low mass makes them very easy to drive and control and that makes them very quick, dynamic and detailed.


> Quote:
> If you look back in my thread at my measurements, you will find that they are very good. I think they even surprised Craig, The RT time really was a shock to him I think. I am right on the money with the RT measurement so the decay is probably as good as I can get in this room. That gives the entire sound, highs to bass an incredible "presence" and start stop feeling. The music and movie effects just start and stop on a dime. At least I think they do.


Yes indeed, the "decay" in your room is exceptionally good for such a small space. Your room treatments have done an excellent job with that. Here is the RT-60 measurement, (which is actually more like an RT-30 measurement at these levels):

 

(Ingnore the high frequency roll-off in this measurement. I had the mic pointing straight up for this measurement. The mic is a "pressure" mic not a "grazing incidence" mic. It needs to be pointed directly at the speaker for high frequency measurements. It's fine for everything below about 5 kHz with the mic pointed straight up, (grazing incidence), but above 5kHz, it needs to be pointed at the speaker for accurate measurements. My error.







)


Here is the bass decay in your room, (upper right corner):

 


Together, these show very short decay times across the board in your room... and it sounds that way also. There is no "overhang" at any frequency. Notes, voices and other sounds all "stop" very quickly. This gives everything excellent articulation and intelligibility. I would like to think my room is similar:

 


and:

 


In both of our rooms, I "hear" very articulate sound.










> Quote:
> Now, I have Dire Straits Brothers in arms as a remastered CD and Craig has it as a SACD so it is not a true comparison. I really like the way this CD sounds on my system. I can get a great sound stage and the instruments all sound real and correct. I really can't hear anything wrong with the way it plays the CD. In bypass mode or regular stereo mode. I can say that another CD I have, TOOL 10,000 days, often fools me into thinking my surrounds are on even when I know I am listening in bypass mode. That's how good of an image I can get. Now, in Craig's system, it is a whole different kettle of fish. His system has a clarity that I have rarely heard on any system, even my own. That Brothers in Arms SACD was just magnificent on his system. Since I think it was a MC SACD, the sound filling the room was remarkable. The Vocals coming from that center were some of the best and cleanest I have ever heard.


I think it's important to note that the Brothers in Arms multi-channel SACD is a re-mix as well as a re-master. The re-mix allowed placements of sounds in the CC and surrounds that are not possibe on a CD, no matter how good the re-mastering is. I agree that the SACD sounds magnificent on my system, but some of the credit needs to go to the recording. Mike, we should listen to the SACD on your system to make a fair comparison.


> Quote:
> Here is an interesting tidbit that I did not mention before. When we first started, Craig did not realize that something was amiss with one of his amps. It turns out we were first only listening to the silver wide speakers he had and no center. I have to say, with music, that sounded pretty good. But then when he realized the problem and fixed it, and we were running the Plats, well, I think you can guess the results.


Detail: We had a lightening storm the night before Mike came over, and it had tripped a couple of circuit breakers in my panel, unbeknownst to me. One of them was the 20 amp circuit for my Earthquake amp. I didn't notice that it wasn't working at first because I had a CD case in front of the power indicator light. After the intro of "Money For Nothing" I knew something didn't sound right. I skipped to "Ride Across th River", and when that sounded wierd, I started investigating... and found the tripped breaker. We had been listening to just the Emotiva amp driving the Wides and Sides, (without the Earthquake driving the fronts and rears.)







It sounded a lot better when I corrected it.







The rest of the day was uneventful.


> Quote:
> But again, if I were to try and compare my system to his, it is still hard to do. I really like the sonic signature of my speakers. If we move to movies, you can again hear the difference.
> 
> Craig's speakers just keep on going louder with no problem at all. That center is simply fantastic. Spoken words are just so damn clean and clear. Now in my room, with movies, I still like how my speakers sound and I think Craig would also agree that they sound very good. But mine would probably give up the ghost at really really high levels. Lucky for me, my room is small enough that my Focal's get plenty loud before I can hear any breakup.


I think this is probably the biggest difference between the two systems... sheer output capability. Mike's system is more than capable in his room. My room requires more.


> Quote:
> In Craig's room, having 9 speakers around the room just puts you in the middle of the music or movie. It is quite the experience. Now don't get me wrong, I still really like my system and I love the way it sounds. But Craig's system is just that much above mine as putting you in the action. But, for movies, I can get close to that as well I think in my small room. They obviously sound different.


And this is the other big difference. Mike's system is more "intimate", and it get's its' envelopment from the nearfield. Mine has enough distance separating the fronts and sides that there seems to be an empty "hole" between them. It's not dramatic, but sometimes "pans" seem to "jump" from the front to the sides. The Wides fill that gap and provide a completely enveloping surround field. It's a different kind of envelopment, and both systems work.


> Quote:
> Regarding bass. In my room, the bass is first rate, IMHO. Craig did a fantastic job calibrating the sub. It just fills the room. Adding the Crowson was the icing on the cake. Now it is even a better, more fun experience for me. Craig's bass system is just plain sick...
> 
> 
> ...watching Avatar had me saying "Anybody who has an issue with the bass in this movie needs to watch it here."


Thanks, Mike. Obviously, this is the area of my system that I've put the most effort into in terms of setup, so your kind words are truly appreciated.


> Quote:
> In summary, I think Craig would agree that both of our systems are really good even though they present the media in different ways.


I could not have summarized it better.










Mike, thanks for taking the time to comment on my system. You may think you don't have the technical knowledge, but you certainly have the listening experience and the well-tuned ear to *know* what good sound is. This makes your comments on my system especially appreciated.










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

No problem Craig. Like I said, I had a great afternoon. I guess I got a few things right in my analysis







. I know Craig's room is much bigger than mine, The entire space that he has is at least 3x what I have to fill. I asked Craig if he felt if more treatments would be of any more "help" to me. I know Craig has his room treated to the T. But I was just wondering. He said, probably not except the part right near my head. Now, when Craig, and hopefully Dennis come over again, we can explore that a bit more. With the chair not reclined, my head is really right at the bottom of my back wall treatment. When I am reclined, their may be a bit more wall showing. But I am not sure if I need to take care of that or how. Eventually I am going to get a server for my movies. When I do that, at least two of my wall units will be gone, Now that will open up more bare wall space in one area and a little in another. I am wondering if that will change the sound and if I need to treat that. But that won't be for awhile. In the mean time I am enjoying my system and I hope Craig and Dennis can find the time to swing by for an afternoon. Maybe Craig can bring that Brothers in Arms SACD. Anyway, as I said before, I had a great time and a I got a real appreciation for those Triads. Also, I am glad that I was not too far off with my analysis







. I will just add this final thought. I think I am going to start listening to more music in that neural surround mode. I listened to that TOOL cd and it sounded great. The front stage was very good and the surrounds were just engaged a little bit. You may make a MC man out of me yet Craig.


----------



## craig john

I updated the first post with some recent changes to my theater. I added the new projector, the Darbee Darblet and I updated the picture of the chairs.


Craig


----------



## Franin

I see you ended up getting the JVC DLA X70/RS 55? Very nice projector Ive been told. Chairs look nice too I like the colour congratulations on the upgrade Craig.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/210#post_22307985
> 
> 
> I see you ended up getting the JVC DLA X70/RS 55? Very nice projector Ive been told. Chairs look nice too I like the colour congratulations on the upgrade Craig.



Hi Frank,


The RS-55 is an absolutely fantastic projector. The E-Shift is a great feature. Compared to my old Benq W10000, the picture is brighter, the colors have more POP and the blacks are MUCH deeper. The only thing the W10000 did better was sharpness of the image, and that was not by much. Adding the Darbee to the mix now adds the sharpness, clarity and definition, and even that aspect is now better than the W10000. It's just a stunning image that makes me smile every time I watch it.










In case you missed them, there are more pic's of the seating on Page 4, as well as some pic's of the Crowson install.


Craig


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/210#post_22308111
> 
> 
> Hi Frank,
> 
> The RS-55 is an absolutely fantastic projector. The E-Shift is a great feature. Compared to my old Benq W10000, the picture is brighter, the colors have more POP and the blacks are MUCH deeper. The only thing the W10000 did better was sharpness of the image, and that was not by much. Adding the Darbee to the mix now adds the sharpness, clarity and definition, and even that aspect is now better than the W10000. It's just a stunning image that makes me smile every time I watch it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In case you missed them, there are more pic's of the seating on Page 4, as well as some pic's of the Crowson install.
> 
> Craig



I've just had a look very nice mate. The crowson does a good job ?

Mate I have to say you have a fantastic theatre it's definitely up there with the best of them


----------



## Franin

just want say Im never using my phone to type. Mate I tell you they are sensitive.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Nice update on the equipment list Craig, Glad that everything is up to date and now people can really see all the great equipment you have. It's really hard for me to imagine that picture looking any better then it did when I was over. On the chairs, another great pic. They are VERY comfortable and the auto recline is really cool. Although I still like mine with the old timey manual recline







.


Frank, as far as the Crowson goes, it is great feature. In Craig's system you really know it's there. It add that extra feeling to movies. I get close to what Craig gets with my little Crowson setup but I think he gets more of a "rumble" then I do because of the type of chairs he is using and the fact that the chairs are on a riser. Plus the amp that Craig has is different than mine so I think that allows him to turn it a bit more than I can. As I mentioned above, Avatar was outstanding and the Crowson really added a lot to that movie. But for me, the Crowson is also a very welcome addition and I would not trade it for anything. So yea, Craig's system is top shelf all around.


----------



## craig john

Thanks, Mike!!!







The best thing about the chairs is the cup holders!










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/210#post_22311189
> 
> 
> Thanks, Mike!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The best thing about the chairs is the cup holders!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig


Don't rub it in. I don't have any cup holders







. But you chairs are sweet







.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/210#post_22307127
> 
> 
> I updated the first post with some recent changes to my theater. I added the new projector, the Darbee Darblet and I updated the picture of the chairs.
> 
> Craig



It's about time. Those photos of the chairs that you were using are not even close to being as attractive as yours are. VERY nice.


I still want to come up and listen to your system. Maybe when my season slows down I will invite myself up


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/210#post_22314211
> 
> 
> It's about time. Those photos of the chairs that you were using are not even close to being as attractive as yours are. VERY nice.
> 
> I still want to come up and listen to your system. Maybe when my season slows down I will invite myself up


Trust me, they look even better in person. And I really can't stress enough how comfy they are.


----------



## Franin

Hey Craig how have you been its been awhile have you done anymore updates on your amazing theatre ?


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/210#post_22424998
> 
> 
> Hey Craig how have you been its been awhile have you done anymore updates on your amazing theatre ?


Hi Frank,


Thanks for asking. As a matter of fact, I re-ran Audyssey XT32 yesterday using a new mic pattern. There was some discussion a while back on the Audyssey thread about using a mic pattern that prioritizes the primary LP, as opposed to the old mic pattern that defined a "bubble" around the LP. Several members have used this new mic pattern with good results. I've been wanting to try it for a while, and the opportunity presented itself yesterday afternoon.


Here is my old mic pattern spread out over the 3 primary seats:

 



Here is the new mic pattern emphasizing the primary LP:

 



After running Audyssey, I again had the same issues with the crossovers and subwoofer distance that I have detailed so frequently in the past. In the following measurement, the green trace is the response as measured immediately after running Audyssey vs. the response I was able to achieve with my post-Audyssey adjustments, (blue trace.) Audyssey had set the mains to 40 Hz, and you can see the choppiness in the response around 40 Hz in the green trace. In the blue trace, I changed the crossovers to 100 Hz, adjusted the distance and switched the Submersive HP's to Prg 2.

 



The next graph shows the effects of Prg1 vs Prg2 in the Submersive amps. Starting about 40 Hz, Prg2 adds a few dB to the lowest frequencies to extend the -3 dB point from 19 Hz to 15 Hz. It works exactly as advertized:

 



The next graph shows both the effect described above as well as the effect of changing the subwoofer distance setting. The yellow trace is SubM Prg1, with the crossover reset to 100 Hz and the Audyssey-set distances of 11.2 ft., (Sub 1 output), and 13.4 ft., (Sub2 output.) The blue trace is with SubM Prg2, and with the Distances adjusted to 13.6 ft, (Sub1), and 15.8 ft. (Sub2). The additional output realized between about 50 Hz and 150 Hz is due to the improved timing of the speakers and subs around the 100 Hz crossover:

 



This is the final response I achieved overall:

 


After all this, I spent some time listening to the new response.










Dire Straits, _Brothers in Arms_, SACD, sounded absolutely fabulous. The imaging and smoothness through the midrange seemed improved. The saxophone on "Your Latest Trick" sounded like it was right in front of me. The bass was incredible; articulate, tight and "fast" without a hint of boom. However, the treble seemed just *slightly* recessed compared to what I'm used to. This effect didn't seem to carry over to other content however...


FourPlay, _Between the Sheets_ sounded the best I've ever heard it. This disc is almost 20 years old, but it's an excellent 2-channel recording with great bass and precise articulation of every note and instrument. I've used it as my primary music demo disc for years, and I've heard it on at least 25 or 30 different systems. I've also listened to it many, many times on my own systems over the years. So, when I say this is the best I've ever heard it, for me, that's sayin' sumpthin!







The first song, "Chant", starts with a large floor tom being struck. This iteration of Audyssey EQ made that floor tom sound bigger, fuller, more round and powerful than I've ever heard it. The rest of Harvey Mason's drums and percussion sounded equally superb. Nathan East's bass sounded more powerful and clean than ever before. Lee Ritenour is the guitarist in this version of FourPlay, and his guitar is crisp and clean and you can easily hear the *pluck* of every string. And Bob James keyboards are just effortless. They sounded that way on the system. Overall, the high frequencies on this disc did not seem to exhibit the "recession" I noticed on the Dire Straits disc. On the FourPlay disc, the highs had all the "sparkle" that I'm used to.


I then watched few movie clips. I won't bore you with the details, but selected scenes from Tron, StarTrek, and Avatar sounded incredible with no hint of the HF recession I noticed on the Dire Straits disc.


Bottom line, I think this new Audyssey EQ with the focus on the primary LP is a substantial improvement IN THE PRIMARY LP over the more traditional mic placement scheme. Of course, I must admit that I haven't listened to it outside the primary LP, and it could well be a setback in those other LP's. Frankly, I'm not too concerned about those other LP's, and I don't sit in them enough to be able to make any valid or useful comparisons. Nonetheless, if a larger listening area is more important, it's certainly possible that the more traditional mic placements could provide a better overall result. For now, I'm sticking with this new Audyssey EQ. I like it!


Craig


----------



## Franin

Hi Craig

That new LP mic placement looks very interesting I might have to give that a try thank you for the tip.







My placements are only on 2 seating position due to the other ones are close to the side wall which whoever sits there (its never me







) wont benefit as much as the main LP. But its good to see its worked for you which I might do the same and try to prioritize my LP and see what results I get.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I don't know how Craig did my system. If there is a "bubble" or what have you. When I watch TV or a movie, or listen to music, for a lot of the time it is just me. If there is someone else in the room, it's someone who would not notice the difference. All I know is that the way Craig setup my system, movies and music sound out of this world. I think because my chairs are so narrow, and my listening window is so narrow, the way it is setup now is probably perfect for what I need in my room. I mean as I said, when I listen to music it just sounds fantastic. And again, movies really sound great and given the size of my room, the speakers I have are perfect. But it's great that you could do a bit more tweaking and get that amazing system sounding even better. It has to be mind blowing now if it is any better then what I heard the last time I was over. For me, I am not sure how much the new way would make my system sound better, It already sounds great as it is. But I am glad that you were able to get your system sounding even better Craig.

EDIT: As I re-read Craig's post again maybe I was wrong. Since I am mainly the only one critically listening to movies and music, and my main chair is the main chair, maybe this focused way would actually be better for a system like mine? I will leave that to Craig to let me know what he thinks.


----------



## craig john

Hi Mike,


Your listening area is focused on one seat, so I used mic positions that were pretty tightly focused on your one LP. I'm not sure a tighter mic grouping would be significant for your system.


Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

One more thing. So you basically doubled up on the mic locations from 3 to six for the main position? If that's what you did, then that is probably what we did with my chair right? I think I remember most of the positions being around my main chair. Please correct if I am wrong. If I am right, then I already have it the way you just changed it to correct?

Edit: I see you just answered my question as I was typing this one. Thanks for the reply







.


Thanks

Mike


----------



## Franin

Just out of curiosity are you both using dynamic Eq ?


----------



## craig john

I'm not using DEQ. But then I am using the Prg2 in the SubM amps. You can see the effect of Prg2 in the 2nd measurement above. It's a similar kind of adjustment as DEQ, but it starts lower than DEQ, (40 Hz vs. ~120 Hz), and it's a constant correction, as opposed to the increasing amount of correction that DEQ adds as the MVC is lowered. I prefer the effect of Prg2 over DEQ. I think Mike's is set up the same way. I know I set it up that way initially, so if Mike didn't change it, that's how he's set up also.


Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

Craig, if that's the way we setup the new amp, then that is the way it is still setup. No way I am going to try and tilt that sub to experiment







. So if that's the case, then I am in Prg 2 I guess.


----------



## audioguy

Looks good. I will give that whirl. My "bubble" is a tad larger than that. See below


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/210#post_22434090
> 
> 
> Looks good. I will give that whirl. My "bubble" is a tad larger than that. See below



You're using Pro, right? With Pro, you can do so many more positions. Looks like you're using 13 now. You could probably keep your current mic grouping and just add a few extra in close proximity to the main LP.


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/210#post_22428636
> 
> 
> Hi Frank,
> 
> Thanks for asking. As a matter of fact, I re-ran Audyssey XT32 yesterday using a new mic pattern. There was some discussion a while back on the Audyssey thread about using a mic pattern that prioritizes the primary LP, as opposed to the old mic pattern that defined a "bubble" around the LP. Several members have used this new mic pattern with good results. I've been wanting to try it for a while, and the opportunity presented itself yesterday afternoon.
> 
> Here is my old mic pattern spread out over the 3 primary seats:
> 
> 
> Here is the new mic pattern emphasizing the primary LP:
> 
> 
> t



I'm definitely going to need to try this as well. With only 3 seats (w/ 90% Brolic-only usage rate), this would most certainly beneficial.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22435315
> 
> 
> I'm definitely going to need to try this as well. With only 3 seats (w/ 90% Brolic-only usage rate), this would most certainly beneficial.



I've tried it and it works well







I did 16 pos with my new chairs and 6 were dedicated to my chair


----------



## MIkeDuke

As Craig said we were pretty close to that for me but I forget how may we did for me. I know that the majority were for my main chair







.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22435390
> 
> 
> As Craig said we were pretty close to that for me but I forget how may we did for me. I know that the majority were for my main chair
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


We did the maximum number of mic positions, which for XT32 is 8. Your "acoustic bubble" was pretty tight.


Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22437174
> 
> 
> We did the maximum number of mic positions, which for XT32 is 8. Your "acoustic bubble" was pretty tight.
> 
> Craig


Thanks Craig for the reminder. I know XT32 is really good and improvement over the last version. Since 8 was enough for me, and you seemed to have done very well with 8, is there any benefit to the pro version? I guess for people with much bigger rooms or with more places to sit? I know it is supposed to be more "sensitive" then the standard XT32 though. But what is the reason to use a pro cal. I guess if you have some really funky audio stuff it can be useful but is that about it?


----------



## primetimeguy


craig john,

 

Do you have a full range freq plot for you room rather than just the sub?  And do you run 100hz crossover on all speakers?

 

Thanks


----------



## cuzed2

craig john,


Just found this thread and subscribed. Back in the fall when I was traveling (and purchasing my 3rd SVS cylinder), I spent a motel evening reading the excellent write-ups (level matching, sub-distance settings, etc..) that you and Mr Seaton had put together.

That is some great material - Thank You!


I now need to revisit those articles because I am about to bring the 3rd sub-woofer on-line.

If I recall correctly; you were also running 3 subs, but at one time I believe you were "EQ-ing" them as a single group?

On page 8 of this thread it appears that you may now be using 2 separate; sub EQ settings?


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *primetimeguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22602931
> 
> 
> craig john,
> 
> 
> Do you have a full range freq plot for you room rather than just the sub?  And do you run 100hz crossover on all speakers?
> 
> 
> Thanks



Hi PTG,


The first post has a full range RTA. Also, in Post #219, I posted this measurement:

 



Yes, I do, (currently), run a 100Hz crossover on all the speakers. Also the LPF of LFE is set to 100 Hz. I've tried multiple different crossovers, from 60 to 100. his 100 Hz crossover for all speakers seems like the best for maximum system headroom, and lack of sub localization.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cuzed2*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22603308
> 
> 
> craig john,
> 
> Just found this thread and subscribed. Back in the fall when I was traveling (and purchasing my 3rd SVS cylinder), I spent a motel evening reading the excellent write-ups (level matching, sub-distance settings, etc..) that you and Mr Seaton had put together.
> 
> That is some great material - Thank You!
> 
> I now need to revisit those articles because I am about to bring the 3rd sub-woofer on-line.
> 
> If I recall correctly; you were also running 3 subs, but at one time I believe you were "EQ-ing" them as a single group?
> 
> On page 8 of this thread it appears that you may now be using 2 separate; sub EQ settings?


Hi cuzed2,


I was, at one point, running all three subs off one subwoofer output. They were gain-matched and placed randomly around the room. I posted all that here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/4500#post_19446901 


After some discussions with other members, I decided to try one sub on one output and the other 2 subs on the second output, I moved the 2 subs so they were the same distance from the LP and further away than the 1 sub. After running Audyssey, manipulating the subwoofer distances and levels, the differences between the 2 setups were trivial/insignificant. I left it with the "split" setup, but only because it would have been a lot of work to re-route the cables to go back to the "triplet" setup.


One note: with the "split" setup, I ended up with different level settings for output1 and output2. This effectively results in a level-matched situation, and to get back to gain-matched, I split-the-difference on the level settings. IIRC, they were set at -11 for the dual subs and -6 for the single sub. I reset them both to -8.5 to get them to the same levels. This had virtually no impact on the FR.


If you run into any issues with your new setup, let me know. I'll try to help. Good luck with it.










Craig


----------



## cuzed2

Craig J


Thanks for the explanation. One thing I could use: a refresher on difference between gain matching and level matching?


It's been awhile...


Thanks!


----------



## craig john

 http://www.avsforum.com/t/1282064/two-subs-gain-matching-vs-level-matching 


Enjoy!










Craig


----------



## cuzed2

Thanks!

Just gave it a read and realized (DUH), that I had my terms mixed up. Gain matching is what I previously read, and it is indeed very logical.


My setup consists of an older Marantz 7002 If I recall; it has only Muti EQ capability.

I am using the preamp outs to a Marantz MM9000 amp.

I have my receiver X/O set at 100Hz (to allow my multiple location subs to help with a null that is near 100Hz at the seating position).


My LFE arrangement:

The receiver LFE out is going to a Velodyne SMS1, the SMS has 3 "outputs" (although I believe a common output circuit)

2 "outputs" drive two SVS 16-46+ cylinders (stock 16Hz tune) that are located near the L/R front corners of my HT and equidistant (7') from my primary LP

The 3rd SMS "output" goes to a QSC RMX850 amp that is pushing a SVS 20-39 cylinder (matching 12.3 driver, one port plugged for 16Hz) This is centered on the back wall, about 6' from the LP.


When I bring these out -by-one to set the gains, my plan will be as follows:

1) Will initially turn up the volume on my receiver setup, to set a reference of 75 db from my front left channel (on a rat shack meter)

2) I will then set my Velodyne gain to 3 (out of of 1 thru 6 settings), and will set my receiver to output subwoofer pink noise

3) I will start by moving the 20-39 rear passive sub to the test postion and will run the QSC gain up until I produce 75db of subwoofer pink noise

4) I will then repeat step #3 with each individual 16-46+ cylinder.


5) then when finished; will move all subs back to their home position and run sub-woofer pink noise again. I suspect I will be needing to turn the Velodyne gain back down, to get back down to 75db at the LP when all the subs are on-line


Hope that made sense?


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cuzed2*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22608477
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Just gave it a read and realized (DUH), that I had my terms mixed up. Gain matching is what I previously read, and it is indeed very logical.
> 
> My setup consists of an older Marantz 7002 If I recall; it has only Muti EQ capability.
> 
> I am using the preamp outs to a Marantz MM9000 amp.
> 
> I have my receiver X/O set at 100Hz (to allow my multiple location subs to help with a null that is near 100Hz at the seating position).
> 
> My LFE arrangement:
> 
> The receiver LFE out is going to a Velodyne SMS1, the SMS has 3 "outputs" (although I believe a common output circuit)
> 
> 2 "outputs" drive two SVS 16-46+ cylinders (stock 16Hz tune) that are located near the L/R front corners of my HT and equidistant (7') from my primary LP
> 
> The 3rd SMS "output" goes to a QSC RMX850 amp that is pushing a SVS 20-39 cylinder (matching 12.3 driver, one port plugged for 16Hz) This is centered on the back wall, about 6' from the LP.
> 
> When I bring these out -by-one to set the gains, my plan will be as follows:
> 
> 1) Will initially turn up the volume on my receiver setup, to set a reference of 75 db from my front left channel (on a rat shack meter)
> 
> 2) *I will then set my Velodyne gain to 3 (out of of 1 thru 6 settings),* and will set my receiver to output subwoofer pink noise
> 
> 3) I will start by moving the 20-39 rear passive sub to the test postion and will run the QSC gain up until I produce 75db of subwoofer pink noise
> 
> 4) I will then repeat step #3 with each individual 16-46+ cylinder.
> 
> 5) then when finished; will move all subs back to their home position and run sub-woofer pink noise again. I suspect I will be needing to turn the Velodyne gain back down, to get back down to 75db at the LP when all the subs are on-line
> 
> Hope that made sense?


The only thing I don't understand is the bolded part. The SMS-1's volume control is set up for "unity gain", (volume input = volume output with no EQ engaged), with a setting of 15. It's range is far higher than 1 thru 6.


Also, gain-matching is really most appropriate for identical subs. Your results with dissimilar subs may not be ideal with gain-matching. It will depend on how dissimilar the 20-39 is from the 16-46. I don't know enough about SVS subs to comment on that. Maybe ask in the SVS thread?


Finally, that "null" at 100 Hz, which is also your crossover frequency, may actually be an incorrect setting of the subwoofer Distance in the receiver. I find that Audyssey often gets this setting wrong, especially in multi-sub systems, and the result is a recession around the crossover frequency. Use the FR graph of the SMS-1 to view the response while adding some distance to the subwoofer Distance setting and see if that doesn't correct the "null." It has worked for me in a number of multi-sub systems. (BTW, the "correct" subwoofer distance is usually not the physical distance as measured with a tape measure. The correct subwoofer Distance takes into account the latency involved in the subwoofer amp, (any phase control or EQ/crossover in the sub amp will add latency. Also, in your system, the SMS-1 will add some latency. This will cause the signal to be delayed a few milliseconds. Prolonging the subwoofer Distance setting causes the subwoofer to "fire" first and allows the signal to "catch up" to the signals from the speakers. In this way, all the signals from all the speakers and sub(s) arrive at the same time at the listening position. This means they are all in-phase. If they arrive at different times, they will be out-of-phase and you'll get the aforementioned cancellation/null.


Craig


----------



## cuzed2

Craig J,


Thanks for responding!

Oops - It is clear I need to revisit the gain portion of my SVS manual before I do any further tweaking.


As for the SVS situation:

I have spoken with one of the key SVS reps (Ed Mullen) on matching these units. With SVS' advice; I have upgraded a driver to make sure all units have matching 12.3 drivers, and with minimal port plugging, I now have "matching16Hz tunes". It has been suggested; that aside from drive levels I will be very close.


As for my null:

I have indeed had several sessions of using the SMS FR graph to monitor response while varying the receiver subwoofer distance. The first time I tried varying the distance while leaving the X/O set to 80 Hz > only a slight improvement. (this despite varying the distance up and down considerably).

Next up; I increased the X/O to 100 Hz and then tried a similar change in +/- distance settings. I was now able to reduce the null (with 80db as a reference - the null was improved from a 7db dip to about a 5 db dip. Cranking in some boost on the SMS reduced the dip to about 3~4db. I am getting the feeling that my favored seating position is in a null?


Of course: there is also the possibility I am doing something wrong


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22607851
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I do, (currently), run a 100Hz crossover on all the speakers. Also the LPF of LFE is set to 100 Hz. I've tried multiple different crossovers, from 60 to 100. his 100 Hz crossover for all speakers seems like the best for maximum system headroom, and lack of sub localization.



Interesting! What is the "advertised" low end response of your Triad mains?


----------



## DIYHomeTheater

Craig:


With all this subwoofer and mains power, does your projector vibrate at all when the decibel level is high? If not, how have you mounted it to ensure stability? Thanks


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22625539
> 
> 
> Interesting! What is the "advertised" low end response of your Triad mains?


60 Hz. Even though they have dual 10" woofers, they're "LCR" speakers, so they're designed to be used with subs. Triad picked up 3 dB of sensitivity by tuning them to 60 Hz. With respect to LF design, they are similar to the Catalysts you have.


Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DIYHomeTheater*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22625547
> 
> 
> Craig:
> 
> With all this subwoofer and mains power, does your projector vibrate at all when the decibel level is high? If not, how have you mounted it to ensure stability? Thanks


I use a Chief RPA mount. http://www.chiefmfg.com/Series/RPA It's mounted through the dropped ceiling to the joists overhead. I needed an additional 4" of "drop" to get the projector to the right height. I got a piece of pipe threaded on both ends from Home Depot for about $4. It's as solid as a rock.


How is your HT coming along? Do you have the 8200's installed yet?


Craig


----------



## DIYHomeTheater




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/200_100#post_22625643
> 
> 
> I use a Chief RPA mount. http://www.chiefmfg.com/Series/RPA It's mounted through the dropped ceiling to the joists overhead. I needed an additional 4" of "drop" to get the projector to the right height. I got a piece of pipe threaded on both ends from Home Depot for about $4. It's as solid as a rock.
> 
> How is your HT coming along? Do you have the 8200's installed yet?
> 
> Craig



Thanks. I screwed a 2x10 to the joists through my double drywall resilient channel ceiling, so I should be able to get stability. I got concerned because i installed the AT in-wall 8e Subs and tested them at reference volume and I could hear an HVAC register vibrating at the back of the room. The were shaking the walls!


My theater is now close to completion - needs carpet, screen, chairs and projector mount. I have everything wired, and the room is now acoustically treated with bass traps, riser and stage. Have not installed the 8200s yet. Would love to have you come over and take a look when it is all ready!


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DIYHomeTheater*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22625662
> 
> 
> Thanks. I screwed a 2x10 to the joists through my double drywall resilient channel ceiling, so I should be able to get stability. I got concerned because i installed the AT in-wall 8e Subs and tested them at reference volume and I could hear an HVAC register vibrating at the back of the room. The were shaking the walls!
> 
> My theater is now close to completion - needs carpet, screen, chairs and projector mount. I have everything wired, and the room is now acoustically treated with bass traps, riser and stage. Have not installed the 8200s yet. Would love to have you come over and take a look when it is all ready!


I would love to come hear/see it.







I can bring XTZ and we can see if we can get Audyssey to behave itself too!


----------



## DIYHomeTheater




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/200_100#post_22625688
> 
> 
> I would love to come hear/see it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can bring XTZ and we can see if we can get Audyssey to behave itself too!



That will be great. I put my rack in a different space (under the stairs in an unfinished space) outside the theater, but put a 3/4" PVC plumbing conduit for the Audyssey microphone. The whole place is wired for 11.x. I will have 3 subs (maybe a 4th inexpensive one). Two are the ATs in-walls, one is an older B&W 400W sub that I already had.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22625591
> 
> 
> 60 Hz. Even though they have dual 10" woofers, they're "LCR" speakers, so they're designed to be used with subs. Triad picked up 3 dB of sensitivity by tuning them to 60 Hz. With respect to LF design, they are similar to the Catalysts you have.
> 
> Craig



I assumed it was something like that but I was surprised that you used 100hz vs 80 (ish). As you may remember, I use Audyssey Pro and it recommends the first crossover choice as 40hz which of course I ignore so I typically use 80 which is usually way down the list of recommendations.


----------



## AltaHomeTheatre

Craig,


Read through the entire thread today, very interesting and amazing system that you have. I was most interested in reading the comments about the Traid speakers. I was wondering if you could give your comments of the Triads compared to the Seaton Catalysts?

Thanks


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AltaHomeTheatre*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22711317
> 
> 
> Craig,
> 
> Read through the entire thread today, very interesting and amazing system that you have. I was most interested in reading the comments about the Traid speakers. I was wondering if you could give your comments of the Triads compared to the Seaton Catalysts?
> 
> Thanks


Hi AltaHomeTheater,


First, thanks for reading my thread and the kind words about my system. Much appreciated.










In terms of comparing the Cats to the Plats, I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for. They are both sealed "LCR" designs that are intended for use with subwoofers and 80 Hz crossovers. They both use large woofers, but limit their extension to about 60 Hz. They both have very high output capabilities and excellent dynamics. They both have wide horizontal dispersion with limited vertical dispersion. In all these respects they are more similar than different.


Of course, there are differences. The Cats use a compression driver tweeter mounted co-axially with the midrange; the Plat's use a silk dome tweeter mated to a very unique horn, (or "dispersion lens" as Triad calls it.) The Cats are active speakers with active crossovers, internal DSP, and amplification built-in and dedicated to each driver or driver system. The Plat's are traditional, passive designs which require external amplification, and use passive crossovers. Finally, the Cats are half the price of the Plats... and that *includes* the amplification, crossovers and DSP.


In terms of sound quality, that will have as much to do with setup and the room as it will the speakers. I've heard the Cats in an *excellent* room, very well designed and executed in terms of acoustic treatments and room correction, (audioguy's system.) In that system, the Cats sounded incredible, very dynamic, uncompressed, smooth and just plain FUN! However, in a different room, one that was not designed as a listening room, and completely untreated, the room overwhelmed the "goodness" of the speakers, and the Cats didn't come off so well in that system. If you've read my comments about the Plats, you already know what I think of the sound quality of those speakers.


I am not going to make a judgement about which of these speakers is "best." I think they're both great speakers. Some folks don't like the sound of horns; some folks don't like the sound of compression drivers, so neither of these speakers will be perfect for everyone. Certainly some will see the Cats as the "value" choice at the lower price point AND with built-in amplification, and that POV is impossible to dismiss. Others will see the additional required A to D and D to A conversion steps as added intrusions in the signal chain.


I got a great deal on a set of Triad Platinums, and I couldn't be happier. I have heard nothing that I like better than these speakers, and I have zero desire to change speakers at this point. If I did, I think I would like to hear some of the new designs using Air Motion Transformer tweeters, either the Triad Cinema Reference Line or the Legacy Audio AMT tweeter/midrange designs.


What speakers and subs are you using?


Craig


----------



## AltaHomeTheatre

Craig,


Thanks a ton for your detailed reply. i currently have paradigm 60s in a small (11x17) dedicated HT room. The room is fairly well treated on all sides. I have read a little about Triads and a fair bit about the Cats. Not many I know of that have experience with both so was happy to read your comments. I dont remember reading anywhere that you directly compared the two.


I have no great reason to change (upgrade) but have been interested in Cats for quite some time. Also have considered Danleys. My problem is I live in Western Canada and the chance of listening to any of these is next to impossible. Also the shipping cost will be fairly high. I understand that either the Cats or the Plats will be overkill for my small room, but if I am going to change I dont want to be wondering "what-if".


There is currently a set of used Triads for sale that appear to be a good price. The used price puts them similar to new Cats. This has got me interested again. On the other hand, I think it is insane for me to spend this much without ever listening to them.


Regards

Darryl


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AltaHomeTheatre*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22712829
> 
> 
> Craig,
> 
> Thanks a ton for your detailed reply. i currently have paradigm 60s in a small (11x17) dedicated HT room. The room is fairly well treated on all sides. I have read a little about Triads and a fair bit about the Cats. Not many I know of that have experience with both so was happy to read your comments. I dont remember reading anywhere that you directly compared the two.
> 
> I have no great reason to change (upgrade) but have been interested in Cats for quite some time. Also have considered Danleys. My problem is I live in Western Canada and the chance of listening to any of these is next to impossible. Also the shipping cost will be fairly high. I understand that either the Cats or the Plats will be overkill for my small room, but if I am going to change I dont want to be wondering "what-if".


Neither the Cats nor the Plats will leave you asking "What if..." especially not in an 11 x 17 dedicated HT.










If you want to hear the Plats, contact the factory rep for Canada and ask him where the closest displaying dealer is: http://www.triadspeakers.com/howtobuy_usacanada.html# 


If you want to hear the Cats, go to the Seaton Sound Forum and ask if there is anyone with Cats in your area. You never know... http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/?forum=86963 


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AltaHomeTheatre*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22712829
> 
> 
> There is currently a set of used Triads for sale that appear to be a good price. The used price puts them similar to new Cats. This has got me interested again. On the other hand, I think it is insane for me to spend this much without ever listening to them.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Darryl


I had the advantage of an in-home audition of the Plats before I bought them. Having said that, it took about 5 minutes to make the decision once I heard them.










Good luck whatever you decide. The good news is that there are no bad decisions here.










Craig


----------



## audioguy

If you consider CATs, I would suggest the CAT8's in that room. That's not a lot of space to fill. OTOH, if you want to buy for the longer term and there is any chance you will be able to move into a larger space, then go for the 12's.


I have not had the pleasure of hearing Craig's system but I have no doubt, that price notwithstanding, it is every bit the sound quality anyone could want. Having said that, either solution will require great care in applying *appropriate and well placed room treatment*. Without that, all bets are off. As Craig said, he heard the CATS in an untreated room (as have I) and if that had been my only experience (I already owned the Cats prior to hearing them in that space) I would never have bought them. In addition, a prepro with appropriate room eq (e.g Audyssey X32) is every bit as important as the room itself.


Have fun on your journey ! And as Craig said, this is a win-win for you


----------



## AltaHomeTheatre

Craig and audioguy,


I dont want to take over craigs thread but i want to thank you both for your advice and direction. Audioguy you are right that I likely only need the cat8s. If I do change, I don't want to wonder in a year "what if". There is also a significant expense to ship to northern Canada.


Thanks again

Darryl


----------



## BrolicBeast

Craig, thanks for introducing me to the Behringer NU1000DSP. The trigger has been pulled on the Behringer, along with a Crowson Transducer system for my theater. I’m going to follow your decision to utilize the Oppo’s Sub output. The only other source I’d want to use the Crowsons for—gaming—can be solved by simply connecting my systems to each of the Oppo 105’s two HDMI inputs and let the DACs do their job. You’re a genius for this solution. I’ll probably need to PM you to discuss proper delay settings on the Behringer, as that is something I know very little about.


Happy Holidays.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22730286
> 
> 
> Craig, thanks for introducing me to the Behringer NU1000DSP. The trigger has been pulled on the Behringer, along with a Crowson Transducer system for my theater. I’m going to follow your decision to utilize the Oppo’s Sub output. The only other source I’d want to use the Crowsons for—gaming—can be solved by simply connecting my systems to each of the Oppo 105’s two HDMI inputs and let the DACs do their job. You’re a genius for this solution. I’ll probably need to PM you to discuss proper delay settings on the Behringer, as that is something I know very little about.
> 
> Happy Holidays.


Way to go on the Crowson. It will be a fun ride. Trust me.


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_22730378
> 
> 
> Way to go on the Crowson. It will be a fun ride. Trust me.



I'm very very existed for their arrival man! I have two transducers coming with about 15 isolation feet (for the pressure points across my three-seat arrangement.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_22730993
> 
> 
> I'm very very existed for their arrival man! I have two transducers coming with about 15 isolation feet (for the pressure points across my three-seat arrangement.)


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22730286
> 
> 
> Craig, thanks for introducing me to the Behringer NU1000DSP. The trigger has been pulled on the Behringer, along with a Crowson Transducer system for my theater. I’m going to follow your decision to utilize the Oppo’s Sub output. The only other source I’d want to use the Crowsons for—gaming—can be solved by simply connecting my systems to each of the Oppo 105’s two HDMI inputs and let the DACs do their job. You’re a genius for this solution. I’ll probably need to PM you to discuss proper delay settings on the Behringer, as that is something I know very little about.
> 
> Happy Holidays.













I have every confidence that you'll love your Crowson transducers. Mike and I both really enjoy ours. PM me if you want to discuss delays, but know that I am in Phoenix, AZ for the next week spending the holidays with my kids and grandkids. I may not be able to get back to you right away. Have a great holiday season!!!


Craig


----------



## hometheatergeek

Happy New Years Craig.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hometheatergeek*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_22768365
> 
> 
> Happy New Years Craig.



Hi Al,


A Happy New Year to you too! I've been away from the forum for a while. I went to Phoenix to visit kids/grandkids over the holidays, and then had to attend an unexpected funeral in Dubuque, IA, (my 84 y/o aunt passed.) Not the best start to the New Year, but hopefully it's all up hill from here. smile.gif


Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

Hey Craig.

I was just in Franin(Frank) 's thread and it looks like he has "heights". You indicate on your front page that you have "wides". Any benefit for either? Is it room dependent? Can you just share why you added "wides" instead of "heights". Is there ever a point in time when you would add heights?


----------



## craig john

Hi Mike,


To view Audyssey's logic for Wides over Heights, read this document:

Audyssey DSX Guidance-1.doc 46k .doc file


There is also a very good explanation of height channels. Since you know my room, you'll understand why Heights would not work well in my room.


Looking forward to seeing you at the GTG!










Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_22952197
> 
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> 
> To view Audyssey's logic for Wides over Heights, read this document:
> 
> Audyssey DSX Guidance-1.doc 46k .doc file
> 
> 
> There is also a very good explanation of height channels. Since you know my room, you'll understand why Heights would not work well in my room.
> 
> 
> Looking forward to seeing you at the GTG!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig


B. Wide versus Height Channel Speakers

1. Wide channel speakers will make the most noticeable improvement, as they provide cues that are significantly more important than the Height channels. The Wide channels are really part of the front speakers; they are not considered surround speakers.

a. *The recommended placement for the Wide speakers is at a ±60° azimuth (angle), but there is a ±10° placement tolerance which still provides very good results.*

b. To get the most benefit from the Wide speakers, it is important to have them at the same height as the front channel speakers.

1) Placing the Wide channel speakers at a different height from the front channel speakers may influence how you perceive left-to-right pans.


III. Height Channel Speaker Placement


A. *Audyssey recommends the ideal Height channel speaker location as ±45° azimuth and a 45° elevation (from ear height).* This potentially places the Height speakers close to the seating area, depending on your ceiling height. This guidance presents several challenges with clearances and aesthetics.

1. A room with 8 foot ceilings and the listeners’ ears 44 inches from the floor would place the Height speakers about 5 ½ feet forward of the listening position.

2. In rooms with average ceiling heights, the potential for bumping your head on the bottom of a ceiling-mounted speaker is probable.

3. The sight of a speaker hanging from the ceiling in the middle of a room may not be appealing in a multi-use space.


OK, So looking at those two sections, and the points in bold, I am guessing that it was more fesable for you to do the the wides "correctly" instead of trying to do the heights more "correctly". That paper seems to perfer wides over heights anyway if there is a choice involved. My room could not acommodate wides the right way it may not even be able to accomodate heights in the right way because of my room treatments. The only other thing I could do, and I probably would not do it any way is put what I would call "sides" They would go over my closet and my window. I am not sure if that would add anything to pans that happen in the movie but I doubt I could do heights or wides the right way. I am also really looking forward to hanging out at the GTG as well.


----------



## craig john

Dolby Heights, (Dolby PLIIz), might work in your room:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-pro-logic-iiz-details.html 
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/home-theater/dolby-pro-logic-iiz.html 


They would go on the wall directly above your L/R's. You could use the same Focal speakers we used for your surrounds. Your pre/pro is Dolby Height capable, so it would just be a matter of the new speakers and wiring.


Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

I was just joking about adding heights. You know who would really have a fit with that







. Plus, I have limited space since I have the Tri Traps in the corners and there really would be no way to put the "directly" above my mains. The only place I could do on the inside of the Tri Traps on the front wall but then they would not be right above my mains. They would be more to the inside of them. Plus, We have the cables looking halfway decent now. There would be no easy way to run the cables cleanly. I am cool with just the basic 5.1 setup. It sounds really good as it is. I was just wondering why you did what you did that's all, Did I get it right why you did what you did? Again, really looking forward to the GTG







.


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_22954044
> 
> 
> I was just joking about adding heights. You know who would really have a fit with that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Plus, I have limited space since I have the Tri Traps in the corners and there really would be no way to put the "directly" above my mains. The only place I could do on the inside of the Tri Traps on the front wall but then they would not be right above my mains. They would be more to the inside of them. Plus, We have the cables looking halfway decent now. There would be no easy way to run the cables cleanly. I am cool with just the basic 5.1 setup. It sounds really good as it is. I was just wondering why you did what you did that's all, Did I get it right why you did what you did? Again, really looking forward to the GTG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



You know—you could a actually pull off height channels if you got some in-ceiling speakers with tweeter-guidance toward main LP. I’m looking forward to hearing what Craig’s width channels do in his room. If they really add presence, I’d be willing to get the Legacy Signature SE’s instead of the Focus SE’s, and use the funds saved to place additional speakers in the width space. I think heights are certainly possible for you though, if yo ureally wanted to.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_22954342
> 
> 
> You know—you could a actually pull off height channels if you got some in-ceiling speakers with tweeter-guidance toward main LP. I’m looking forward to hearing what Craig’s width channels do in his room. If they really add presence, I’d be willing to get the Legacy Signature SE’s instead of the Focus SE’s, and use the funds saved to place additional speakers in the width space. I think heights are certainly possible for you though, if yo ureally wanted to.


Focal has plenty of in ceiling speakers but I don't think any have tweeters that can be "guided" to you. To be honest, I am not sure of any speaker that has a tweeter that you can rotate towards the listener. I was just day dreaming. I not sure if it would be worth the effort. I just stick with my 5.1 setup. It sounds pretty good now as Craig and Dennis can attest to







.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_22952457
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, So looking at those two sections, and the points in bold, I am guessing that it was more fesable for you to do the the wides "correctly" instead of trying to do the heights more "correctly". That paper seems to perfer wides over heights anyway if there is a choice involved. My room could not acommodate wides the right way it may not even be able to accomodate heights in the right way because of my room treatments. The only other thing I could do, and I probably would not do it any way is put what I would call "sides" They would go over my closet and my window. I am not sure if that would add anything to pans that happen in the movie but I doubt I could do heights or wides the right way. I am also really looking forward to hanging out at the GTG as well.



Just to add Audyssey DSX is definitely no good for heights it duplicates what the fronts are doing Its sounds all good but the problem that occurs is when a vocal is mixed into the L/R front speaker you get an echo effect one example is SW EP 3 intro bit when the pilots say "realese the Sfoils " you get an echo effect. Ive spoken to Chris about this and he is aware of it but he says there is not much he can do when the mixers apply the voice in the F/L speaker. If you do ever consider it Mike the best for heights is IIz, works very well.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_22954437
> 
> 
> To be honest, I am not sure of any speaker that has a tweeter that you can rotate towards the listener.



Sonance virtuoso 834dr do.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_22974703
> 
> 
> Sonance virtuoso 834dr do.


Just checked their website. The one you mentioned is a "legacy" speaker but they do seem to a number that have a tweeter that pivits. The only thing is they seem to be mostly, if not all inwall speakers and I don't know if I want to that way. I will probably just continue to slum with my standard 5.1 setup







.


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_22974959
> 
> 
> I will probably just continue to slum with my standard 5.1 setup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


----------



## petronsky

I own an Integra 80.1 and my video "twitches" when I run HDMI signals throught the preamp from Sony BDP and Dircet TV sources. There are no audio issues. Any suggestions from a fellow Integra owner? Nice setup, by the way.


----------



## MIkeDuke

OK. Just had a little GTG at Craig's house again. Yep, it his system still kicks ass. The sound is just so incredible and all around you. The dynamic range is just crazy. Craig, I don't know if you can, but can I somehow get a copy of that Dark Side of The Moon we were listening to? Because that was just mind blowing. Now on my system the SACD sounds really good an the LP also sounds really good. But on your system, it was a new experience. The best example I can give is that in the beginning of the CD, when you have the blending of all of the sound with the clocks and and cash registers AND the people talking, it was amazing. That's the track "speak to me" I can honestly say that I was able to understand more of what each person was saying. I mean, some parts are always clear, like the one line "I don't know, I was really drunk at the time." But there are other lines that were not as clear every time I have listened to that record. On your system, I heard, and could make out EVERY LINE and EVERY WORD that was being said by all the different people. I would love to get a copy of that for my system. Just so I can compare. But besides that, all the other demos, music and movies were just outstanding. I saw the new Total Recall at a friends house before and thought it sounded OK. At your house, it was freaking amazing. Plus, The Terminator clip, for sound, was just crazy. And both clips from Book of Eli were outstanding. Also, your video is also just insane. Watching the Avatar Clip and Alice in Wonderland clips was just breathtaking, I hate to use such flowery language, but that's what it was. Your screen is so big and the picture quality is so good, Plus, I would be remiss if I did not say again, how comfy your chairs are and that Crowson really adds that extra that puts you over the top. So again, I had a great time meeting everyone. It was great to see Jeff again and meet Matt for the first time. I look forward to having you come over with Dennis when I get the server setup.


----------



## audioguy

I would have loved to have been there but it sounds like Craig is going to get people to spend their hard-earned money on audio toys, yet again!!! I'm sure, had I been there, I would have needed to go home and buy SOMETHING (like "wide" speakers or seat actuators or something else).


I really do want to hear your system but you aren't near any place I visit. Maybe someday.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23007939
> 
> 
> I would have loved to have been there but it sounds like Craig is going to get people to spend their hard-earned money on audio toys, yet again!!! I'm sure, had I been there, I would have needed to go home and buy SOMETHING (like "wide" speakers or seat actuators or something else).
> 
> 
> I really do want to hear your system but you aren't near any place I visit. Maybe someday.


Yeah, like people don't demo YOUR system and walk out checking their wallets!!!










Of course you're welcome any time, but you shouldn't wait for a visit to investigate the Crowson tactile actuators. They're one of the best additions I've ever made to my system. You didn't hear me say this, but I would accept lesser subwoofage before I would give up my Crowson's.










Now, go spend some money!!!










Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23007895
> 
> 
> OK. Just had a little GTG at Craig's house again. Yep, it his system still kicks ass. The sound is just so incredible and all around you. The dynamic range is just crazy. Craig, I don't know if you can, but can I somehow get a copy of that Dark Side of The Moon we were listening to? Because that was just mind blowing. Now on my system the SACD sounds really good an the LP also sounds really good. But on your system, it was a new experience. The best example I can give is that in the beginning of the CD, when you have the blending of all of the sound with the clocks and and cash registers AND the people talking, it was amazing. That's the track "speak to me" I can honestly say that I was able to understand more of what each person was saying. I mean, some parts are always clear, like the one line "I don't know, I was really drunk at the time." But there are other lines that were not as clear every time I have listened to that record. On your system, I heard, and could make out EVERY LINE and EVERY WORD that was being said by all the different people. I would love to get a copy of that for my system. Just so I can compare. But besides that, all the other demos, music and movies were just outstanding. I saw the new Total Recall at a friends house before and thought it sounded OK. At your house, it was freaking amazing. Plus, The Terminator clip, for sound, was just crazy. And both clips from Book of Eli were outstanding. Also, your video is also just insane. Watching the Avatar Clip and Alice in Wonderland clips was just breathtaking, I hate to use such flowery language, but that's what it was. Your screen is so big and the picture quality is so good, Plus, I would be remiss if I did not say again, how comfy your chairs are and that Crowson really adds that extra that puts you over the top. So again, I had a great time meeting everyone. It was great to see Jeff again and meet Matt for the first time. I look forward to having you come over with Dennis when I get the server setup.


Hi Mike,


It was great to see you again yesterday. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself. Sorry you got stuck in the worst seat in the house for the beginning of the day, but at least you got the sweet spot for a number of the demo's.










I'll be happy to send you a copy of that PF disc. Just shoot me your address. I know I have it in an old e-mail or PM, but I could search for hours trying to find it. As you said, that disc is AMAZING! The quadraphonic recording is absolutely incredible. We've all heard those songs a million times, but to hear the true artist's intent with the spatial presentation of the surround envelope is, (as Dennis described it), a "revelation".) It's like hearing that whole thing again for the first time. That really is one of my favorite pieces of content in my collection.


After you left, I pulled out The Eagles, Farewell 1 Tour. I have it on HD-DVD, and it is the only reason I keep my HD-DVD player in my system. (Fortunately, it comes out tomorrow on BluRay. http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Live-From-Melbourne-Blu-ray/dp/B00AR1G3FS This is also one of my favorite pieces of content in my collection. Even if you have it on DVD, you should get it on BluRay. The image quality is FAR superior and the BluRay has the DTS-MA track.) Dennis and I were both singing along to the songs. It's just a really fun concert to watch.


Thanks again for all the kind words about my system. I've been building this system since 1986 when I got my first "big screen TV." It's been a work in progress ever since. I can say that I am *VERY* happy with where it is right now.


I'm looking forward to your experience with the media server. If you and Dennis get that all worked out, that may be my next upgrade path. As you saw yesterday, changing shiny disc's gets old, and having everything at your fingertips on a server would be an awesome upgrade. We'll stay in touch as you guys move forward with that.


Anyway, keep enjoying that awesome system of yours.


Craig


----------



## BrolicBeast

I remember the first time I went Ice Skating at Rockefeller Center in NY—it was a highly anticipated experience that was not soon forgotten. I had a similar experience yesterday: Craig's system.


About a month ago, I visited Dennis’ (DMark1) home in PA, and got introduced to the world of Legacy Audio ( View my impressions of Dennis' (DMark1) legacy systems here ). Yesterday, I took a trip back up to PA to check out Craig’s (Craig John) system—and I do believe my mind has been blown. In the words of Diana Krall: “If you could be so kind, to help me find my mind







” for my mind was all over the place after yesterday. The speakers’ setup is essentially ideal—even the tweeters are the same height scross the Left, Center, and Right channels (done with careful stand design on the parts of Dennis and Craig). Let me also say that normally, listening at Reference levels fatigues me, and my ears begin to feel uncomfortable—Craig’s silk-dome tweeters are so smooth, that when the volume was pushed between -2 and reference levels, I didn’t even know that we had hit reference levels yet, because my ears were just too busy having an ear-gasm to feel fatigued. There was no harshness at all. Interestingly, one of the primary things I wanted to listen for was the effect that wides had on the system—but, for the first 10 minutes or so, I was so floored by the overall sound, I kept forgetting to listen for the width channels and was just surrounding by the performers. That is a testament to the quality of the system, as well as the utility of the width channels, as they can widen the soundstage without becoming obvious. Craig’s RS55 is also a stunning performer and really helps put the finishing touch on the full envelopment of the viewer into the experience. As Mike mentioned, Total Recall was insane. I watch that movie back when it was released with my Klipsch RF-82’s, and apparently—I had not actually heard the movie until yesterday. The experience was def8initely an improvement over my previous viewing of the film. We went over a lot of great audio and video demos and each one tickled my ears with joy.


On top of the awesome sound, I got to meet the mighty Mike (MikeDuke) and Jeff (Pepar)—both of whom were great to speak with; it was also great to see Dennis and Craig again, and Craig was a very gracious host, and mentioned that Jeff had given him advice in the early days of his setup, and I thought to myself “Anybody who can give Craig advice on home theater must be able to write an encyclopedia on the subject-matter…” because Craig has a superb knowledge base of all things HT. It also turns out we all have a passion for luxury cars and Mike let us know about BMW’s forthcoming re-alignment of models. (4-series? Yes they did!).


It’s difficult to put into words how everything coalesces so well in Craig’s theater. I mean—the treatments are well-executed, the width channels w/ DSX engaged were an absolute revelation ( I now must add wides to my speaker upgrade plan.), not to mentioned the TRIPLE Submersives that power the theater. Those Triad Platinums look great on the stands Dennis built, and they sound even better than they look. I could go on and on, but it’s best to bow out with this: When setting up my Legacy Focus SE/Marquis HD speakers, Craig’s system will be the bar against which I compare the audio. I will tweak, and position, and treat as necessary until I sit down in the sweet-spot and get an experience that tingles my spine the way Craig’s system did. Once that occurs—AVS Movie Night!


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23008013
> 
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> 
> It was great to see you again yesterday. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself. Sorry you got stuck in the worst seat in the house for the beginning of the day, but at least you got the sweet spot for a number of the demo's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be happy to send you a copy of that PF disc. Just shoot me your address. I know I have it in an old e-mail or PM, but I could search for hours trying to find it. As you said, that disc is AMAZING! The quadraphonic recording is absolutely incredible. We've all heard those songs a million times, but to hear the true artist's intent with the spatial presentation of the surround envelope is, (as Dennis described it), a "revelation".) It's like hearing that whole thing again for the first time. That really is one of my favorite pieces of content in my collection.
> 
> 
> After you left, I pulled out The Eagles, Farewell 1 Tour. I have it on HD-DVD, and it is the only reason I keep my HD-DVD player in my system. (Fortunately, it comes out tomorrow on BluRay. http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Live-From-Melbourne-Blu-ray/dp/B00AR1G3FS This is also one of my favorite pieces of content in my collection. Even if you have it on DVD, you should get it on BluRay. The image quality is FAR superior and the BluRay has the DTS-MA track.) Dennis and I were both singing along to the songs. It's just a really fun concert to watch.
> 
> 
> Thanks again for all the kind words about my system. I've been building this system since 1986 when I got my first "big screen TV." It's been a work in progress ever since. I can say that I am *VERY* happy with where it is right now.
> 
> 
> I'm looking forward to your experience with the media server. If you and Dennis get that all worked out, that may be my next upgrade path. As you saw yesterday, changing shiny disc's gets old, and having everything at your fingertips on a server would be an awesome upgrade. We'll stay in touch as you guys move forward with that.
> 
> 
> Anyway, keep enjoying that awesome system of yours.
> 
> 
> Craig


No problem Craig. Your system is what my system wants to be when it grows up







. The server is going to be fantastic. I am guessing probably April or May for my server. By the time Dennis gets everything and the has a chance to set everything up, that seems like a good time frame. Dennis said that it should nit take that long for the OPPO to come in so when ever I order that, I will be set. I will probably order it in April because I need to build a little cushion in the old account







. But when I do get everything, it will be awesome. Having that for your system will be out of this world. I am also looking forward to condensing some of my remotes with the tablet and remote app. I don't have that Eagles concert at all. So you can send me a copy of that disk and it will be the same as the version that you played? I guess it's not a DVD-A then? Is it just a regular CD just mixed differently. I will PM you my address as well as send you an email because you I like to make sure things get through.


----------



## hometheatergeek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23007968
> 
> 
> Yeah, like people don't demo YOUR system and walk out checking their wallets!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you're welcome any time, but you shouldn't wait for a visit to investigate the Crowson tactile actuators. They're one of the best additions I've ever made to my system. You didn't hear me say this, but I would accept lesser subwoofage before I would give up my Crowson's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, go spend some money!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



You got that right Craig. I went right out and bought the Darblet almost right after I left Chuck's place. The Cats will have to wait a little while longer.


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## pokekevin

Craig is using DSX? No love for Pl2Z??


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23008065
> 
> 
> I remember the first time I went Ice Skating at Rockefeller Center in NY—it was a highly anticipated experience that was not soon forgotten. I had a similar experience yesterday: Craig's system.
> 
> 
> About a month ago, I visited Dennis’ (DMark1) home in PA, and got introduced to the world of Legacy Audio ( View my impressions of Dennis' (DMark1) legacy systems here ). Yesterday, I took a trip back up to PA to check out Craig’s (Craig John) system—and I do believe my mind has been blown. In the words of Diana Krall: “If you could be so kind, to help me find my mind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ” for my mind was all over the place after yesterday. The speakers’ setup is essentially ideal—even the tweeters are the same height scross the Left, Center, and Right channels (done with careful stand design on the parts of Dennis and Craig). Let me also say that normally, listening at Reference levels fatigues me, and my ears begin to feel uncomfortable—Craig’s silk-dome tweeters are so smooth, that when the volume was pushed between -2 and reference levels, I didn’t even know that we had hit reference levels yet, because my ears were just too busy having an ear-gasm to feel fatigued. There was no harshness at all. Interestingly, one of the primary things I wanted to listen for was the effect that wides had on the system—but, for the first 10 minutes or so, I was so floored by the overall sound, I kept forgetting to listen for the width channels and was just surrounding by the performers. That is a testament to the quality of the system, as well as the utility of the width channels, as they can widen the soundstage without becoming obvious. Craig’s RS55 is also a stunning performer and really helps put the finishing touch on the full envelopment of the viewer into the experience. As Mike mentioned, Total Recall was insane. I watch that movie back when it was released with my Klipsch RF-82’s, and apparently—I had not actually heard the movie until yesterday. The experience was def8initely an improvement over my previous viewing of the film. We went over a lot of great audio and video demos and each one tickled my ears with joy.
> 
> 
> On top of the awesome sound, I got to meet the mighty Mike (MikeDuke) and Jeff (Pepar)—both of whom were great to speak with; it was also great to see Dennis and Craig again, and Craig was a very gracious host, and mentioned that Jeff had given him advice in the early days of his setup, and I thought to myself “Anybody who can give Craig advice on home theater must be able to write an encyclopedia on the subject-matter…” because Craig has a superb knowledge base of all things HT. It also turns out we all have a passion for luxury cars and Mike let us know about BMW’s forthcoming re-alignment of models. (4-series? Yes they did!).
> 
> 
> It’s difficult to put into words how everything coalesces so well in Craig’s theater. I mean—the treatments are well-executed, the width channels w/ DSX engaged were an absolute revelation ( I now must add wides to my speaker upgrade plan.), not to mentioned the TRIPLE Submersives that power the theater. Those Triad Platinums look great on the stands Dennis built, and they sound even better than they look. I could go on and on, but it’s best to bow out with this: When setting up my Legacy Focus SE/Marquis HD speakers, Craig’s system will be the bar against which I compare the audio. I will tweak, and position, and treat as necessary until I sit down in the sweet-spot and get an experience that tingles my spine the way Craig’s system did. Once that occurs—AVS Movie Night!



Matt,


I am truly humbled by this.







Your words are too kind. Thank you.


I just want to say a few things about the Wides. With a lot of content, I find the Wides to increase the sense of envelopment. They "fill in" a hole between the front soundstage and the side surrounds. They make the entire "surround soundstage" a seamless and cohesive whole; one that can be disconnected from the speakers and tied instead to the video image. Without them, there are times when the surround content can seem "attached to the side surround speakers", and not a seamless part of the whole. This may have something to do with the monopole nature of my side surrounds. Your Legacy side surrounds will be "multipolar" speakers. They may do a better job of filling in the gap between the fronts and the side surrounds. Another thing about the Wides is that they don't work well for *all* content. Some 2-channel content is not improved by adding the Wides. Also, you need to use some other form of processing on 2-channel content to be able to use the Wides, (PLIIx, DTS Neo, etc.) I suggest you start out with just the multipolar sides before you jump wholeheartedly into the Wides.

I'm just sayin' that before you commit to the Wides, I suggest you see how well the Phantom surrounds work, and see if you even need the Wides.


One other comment about the Phantom side surrounds... with them being multipolar, they fire a midrange speaker towards the front wall. You can get a "bounce" off the front wall that has the tendency to pull the surround image forward. (You get a similar bounce off the back wall which pulls the surround image back towards the rear of the room, but that's not nearly as problematic as pulling the image forward towards the front of the room. I suggest you acoustically treat the first reflection point for the side speakers on the front wall to reduce this reflection. Of course, that spot might be right were your screen is, so you may not be able to treat it.


Finally, the Phantoms have "boundary compensation" (BC) designed into their driver layout. If you're not wall mounting the Phantoms, you may want to ask Bill Dudleston about changing the BC. From the Legacy website:


> Quote:
> "Anytime you place a loudspeaker element near a boundary it is always accompanied by a reinforcement rise, then followed by a dip. The frequency of the dip is a function of the distance from the boundary. When I built the Phantom, I carefully positioned the 5.25" drivers very close to the wall to fill in the response -just where the 8" driver is subject to a dip in the frequency response.
> 
> 
> This arrangement also enhances dispersion and prevents near field hot spots. Phantom is a diffuse field radiator that uses the wall to its advantage, yet provides great direct field clarity. The slopes in the baffles are key to the performance. They work great as side, rear, and height channels and can even be used as overhead channels on a sloped ceiling.
> 
> 
> Consistent with the new Atmos (Dolby) standards, Phantom avoids the phasey dipole effect of the early days of home theater."


 http://www.legacyaudio.com/products/view/phantom-hd/ 


Bill may be able to do something with the crossovers to impact the BC.


I can't wait to hear your Legacy speaker system. The next GTG is at your place when you get your Legacy speakers.







You've been "volun-told."










Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23008288
> 
> 
> No problem Craig. Your system is what my system wants to be when it grows up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


That's funny!


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23008288
> 
> 
> The server is going to be fantastic. I am guessing probably April or May for my server. By the time Dennis gets everything and the has a chance to set everything up, that seems like a good time frame. Dennis said that it should nit take that long for the OPPO to come in so when ever I order that, I will be set. I will probably order it in April because I need to build a little cushion in the old account
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . But when I do get everything, it will be awesome. Having that for your system will be out of this world. I am also looking forward to condensing some of my remotes with the tablet and remote app.


I'm looking to your lead on the server. Between you and Dennis, I'm sure you'll figure it out. if it works for you, I will probably go ahead and get one too.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23008288
> 
> 
> I don't have that Eagles concert at all.


Then I highly recommend you get the BluRay. I'd bet even your parents would love to watch it with you.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23008288
> 
> 
> So you can send me a copy of that disk and it will be the same as the version that you played? I guess it's not a DVD-A then? Is it just a regular CD just mixed differently. I will PM you my address as well as send you an email because you I like to make sure things get through.


It is a DVD-A, but it also has a regular DTS track on it. You'll want to listen to the Multi-Channel track though as that is the Hi-Rez track.


Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hometheatergeek*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23009099
> 
> 
> You got that right Craig. I went right out and bought the Darblet almost right after I left Chuck's place. The Cats will have to wait a little while longer.


Yup, I doubt many people get out of Chuck's room feeling like they don't need an upgrade of some kind.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23009126
> 
> 
> Craig is using DSX? No love for Pl2Z??


I have Wides. I have no room for heights unless I use in-ceiling speakers:

 


Craig


----------



## pokekevin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23009871
> 
> 
> I have Wides. I have no room for heights unless I use in-ceiling speakers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig


Damn that picture always gives me the goosebumps


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23007968
> 
> 
> ...... you shouldn't wait for a visit to investigate the Crowson tactile actuators. They're one of the best additions I've ever made to my system. You didn't hear me say this, but I would accept lesser subwoofage before I would give up my Crowson's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, go spend some money!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



I have experienced various seat "stimulation" products and each time, I felt it to be a major distraction from the movie. I've heard(felt) the D-Box which is/(was) supposed to be the ultimate implementation of seat actuators since some movies had D-Box information encoded in them. I think I also heard different versions of Butt Kickers.


Since everyone that comes to your theater seems to like them (and goes home and spends their hard earned money to replicate what you have), there must be something about the way you implemented it that is better than what I have heard the 4 or 5 times I have heard it -- or it's just not my cup of tea.


I did get a sample of seat actuators when I put all 4 subs in the rear of my room. The bass was INTENSE but the seat was constantly moving/vibrating in tune with the movie --- didn't like that either!!


But my interest in hearing your system has much much much less to do with having my rear end being massaged by explosions in a movie and more about your listening to your speakers and the implementation of "wides".


All of that aside, I will somehow get up there.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/270#post_23009830
> 
> 
> That's funny!
> 
> I'm looking to your lead on the server. Between you and Dennis, I'm sure you'll figure it out. if it works for you, I will probably go ahead and get one too.
> 
> Then I highly recommend you get the BluRay. I'd bet even your parents would love to watch it with you.
> 
> It is a DVD-A, but it also has a regular DTS track on it. You'll want to listen to the Multi-Channel track though as that is the Hi-Rez track.
> 
> 
> Craig


First, did you get my address? So, when I put this disk into the player, on the Integra, do I scroll around the surround "modes" until I see Multi on the display? Will there be a menu section on the disk as well that I have to select a listening mode? Then I will be getting almost the same sound quality that you have on your disk. Is that right? If the server works for me, it will work for anybody. I AM the lowest common denominator when it comes to stuff like this







. I am assuming Dennis put in my order for the server. He said the wait time is 6-8 weeks. So about a month in a half to two months. Then he will load everything on their for me and set it up. Then he will program the tablet I am getting as well, So that will also take time. I am probably looking at just over 2 months before I have it in my system.


Again, I just have to say it, as I have said it before in many places here. You and Dennis have really helped me elevate my system to a place I really did not think I would be to attain in my room. So for that, I have to say thanks again







. Without you guys there is no way my room would sound as good as it does now. Anyway, back to the server. I am really looking forward to having everything at my command and I am really curious to see if getting the DVD racks out of the makes the room seem bigger. So just let me know if you got my info. One more thing. I listened to part of that demo disk.







. That about sums it up. It sounded amazing. I was just curious and I put my system in bypass mode(you know me). The total sound, from the highs down to the bass was just insane. I could not believe the bass my speakers were putting out on their own. It was truly mind blowing so thanks for that. It was a great day. Great people to hang out with while listening to a great system. I am sure Dennis will keep you posted and I will keep you updated on the server side of things.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Craig,


I certainly appreciate that insight. I am actually considering getting the studios instead of the Phantoms—I do love direct radiating surrounds, as all my setups have eschewed diffusion (bi-pole and di-pole) in the past, in favor of mono-polar speakers. Believe it or not, I like the concept of localizing surround effects, as makes for precise imaging. I generally test out surround imaging by popping on an Xbox 360 game and standing the character next to a source of persistent sound (could be an in-game power generator, or some other source of noise. I then just move my POV from right to left, and listen to how well my surrounds pan, and—at a 180 degree turn, I listen to see how well the speakers create a phantom (pun intended) 6th channel directly behind me. I hadn’t given much thought to the multi-polar nature of the Phantoms until reading your post, but I do think I’ll be sticking with direct radiation in the Studios.


Interestingly enough, I was looking at my room last night and if I went with the width channels at 60 degrees, they would be placed right in front of each of my Submersives. I may not be able to do the 60 degree location—perhaps around72 degrees will have to suffice, at which point, I could (theoretically) wall-mount each studio (although the amount of hassle involved would be monumental)


LOL, definitely—I will definitely be hosting the next one once the Legacies are up and running. It should be lots of fun


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23011678
> 
> 
> I have experienced various seat "stimulation" products and each time, I felt it to be a major distraction from the movie. I've heard(felt) the D-Box which is/(was) supposed to be the ultimate implementation of seat actuators since some movies had D-Box information encoded in them. I think I also heard different versions of Butt Kickers.


D-Box is so "over-the-top" it's gimmicky. It actually makes me nauseous. Comparing BK's to Crowsons is like comparing Cerwin Vega to Seaton Sound. BK's have massive output and strong effect, but they lack the subtlety and finesse of the Crowsons. The Crowsons add detail to the sound as well as just simple shaking.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23011678
> 
> 
> Since everyone that comes to your theater seems to like them (and goes home and spends their hard earned money to replicate what you have), there must be something about the way you implemented it that is better than what I have heard the 4 or 5 times I have heard it -- or it's just not my cup of tea.


It may be my implementation, but others have easily duplicated it.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23011678
> 
> 
> I did get a sample of seat actuators when I put all 4 subs in the rear of my room. The bass was INTENSE but the seat was constantly moving/vibrating in tune with the movie --- didn't like that either!!


Maybe they're just not for you. That's fine. If you come up, I can easily turn them off.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23011678
> 
> 
> But my interest in hearing your system has much much much less to do with having my rear end being massaged by explosions in a movie and more about your listening to your speakers and the implementation of "wides".
> 
> 
> All of that aside, I will somehow get up there.


You're welcome anytime.







Just check your wallet at the door. I don't want to be held accountable for any damage to it.










Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23012214
> 
> 
> First, did you get my address?


Yup! I will get it sent out today.










> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23012214
> 
> 
> So, when I put this disk into the player, on the Integra, do I scroll around the surround "modes" until I see Multi on the display? Will there be a menu section on the disk as well that I have to select a listening mode? Then I will be getting almost the same sound quality that you have on your disk. Is that right?


Yeah, it's easy to navigate.


> Quote:
> If the server works for me, it will work for anybody. I AM the lowest common denominator when it comes to stuff like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I am assuming Dennis put in my order for the server. He said the wait time is 6-8 weeks. So about a month in a half to two months. Then he will load everything on their for me and set it up. Then he will program the tablet I am getting as well, So that will also take time. I am probably looking at just over 2 months before I have it in my system.


This will be good!


> Quote:
> Again, I just have to say it, as I have said it before in many places here. You and Dennis have really helped me elevate my system to a place I really did not think I would be to attain in my room. So for that, I have to say thanks again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Without you guys there is no way my room would sound as good as it does now.


You're certainly welcome Mike! We have enjoyed the experience and getting to know you!


> Quote:
> One more thing. I listened to part of that demo disk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . That about sums it up. It sounded amazing. I was just curious and I put my system in bypass mode(you know me). The total sound, from the highs down to the bass was just insane. I could not believe the bass my speakers were putting out on their own. It was truly mind blowing so thanks for that. It was a great day. Great people to hang out with while listening to a great system. I am sure Dennis will keep you posted and I will keep you updated on the server side of things.


Yeah, that demo disc is AMAZING! Every song on it is unique and they all have excellent sound quality. Enjoy!


Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23012262
> 
> 
> Craig,
> 
> 
> I certainly appreciate that insight. I am actually considering getting the studios instead of the Phantoms—I do love direct radiating surrounds, as all my setups have eschewed diffusion (bi-pole and di-pole) in the past, in favor of mono-polar speakers. Believe it or not, I like the concept of localizing surround effects, as makes for precise imaging. I generally test out surround imaging by popping on an Xbox 360 game and standing the character next to a source of persistent sound (could be an in-game power generator, or some other source of noise. I then just move my POV from right to left, and listen to how well my surrounds pan, and—at a 180 degree turn, I listen to see how well the speakers create a phantom (pun intended) 6th channel directly behind me. I hadn’t given much thought to the multi-polar nature of the Phantoms until reading your post, but I do think I’ll be sticking with direct radiation in the Studios.
> 
> 
> Interestingly enough, I was looking at my room last night and if I went with the width channels at 60 degrees, they would be placed right in front of each of my Submersives. I may not be able to do the 60 degree location—perhaps around72 degrees will have to suffice, at which point, I could (theoretically) wall-mount each studio (although the amount of hassle involved would be monumental)
> 
> 
> LOL, definitely—I will definitely be hosting the next one once the Legacies are up and running. It should be lots of fun


Hi Matt,


If you're planning to do Wides and Sides, I think monopoles are a much better choice. I'm sure you can work around the placement issues. Instead of sitting in front of your F2's, could they sit on top of them? If not, then I think I would opt for "inside" the F2's at less than 60 degrees rather than "outside" the F2's at greater than 60 degrees. Can you try it out both ways before you install them?


Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

"Yup! I will get it sent out today







."

Sweet

"Yeah, it's easy to navigate."

I like easy.

"This will be good!"

Indeed. It will be very convenient.

"You're certainly welcome Mike! We have enjoyed the experience and getting to know you!"

I appreciate that. You know it's the same for you.

"Yeah, that demo disc is AMAZING! Every song on it is unique and they all have excellent sound quality. Enjoy!"

I can't wait to listen to the entire disk from start to finish.


----------



## Bunga99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23012366
> 
> 
> Comparing BK's to Crowsons is like comparing Cerwin Vega to Seaton Sound. BK's have massive output and strong effect, but they lack the subtlety and finesse of the Crowsons. The Crowsons add detail to the sound as well as just simple shaking.
> 
> It may be my implementation, but others have easily duplicated it.
> 
> Craig



Besides what Craig mentioned above, I think the Crowson react faster and seem much quieter.

I only experienced the BK once. It was a few years ago at my friend's house and I believe he had it turned up too much and using too high of a crossover. It also was making some buzzing noises. I thought it was too gimmicky and distracted me from the movie experience. My friend, on the other hand, loved it but he has complained a few times about the Buttkicker bottoming out and making some god awful sounds. He still loved it though. My wife also experienced the Buttkicker at this friend’s house. She originally did not want me to buy the Crowson based off that BK experience. We probably would have enjoyed the BK experience better if it was dialed in more. The Crowsons also require some tweaking but, I think, the end result is awesome.


If it was not for Mike, Matt, and Craig, (THANKS AGAIN GUYS!) I would have based my limited transducer experience on the one, over the top, Buttkicker setup and never would have gotten the Crowson. That would have been a huge mistake on my part.


----------



## MIkeDuke

For me, what did it was the subtlety of the system. It just felt like a natural extension of the soundtrack. At least in my system. it seems to grab the last bit of grunt that's on the disk. The Tron grid scene, it just has that extra "shake" if you will. Not like it's going to shake you out of your chair, but you get every last bit of that movie with the Crowson. Not that I felt like I missing anything with the SubMersive HP. But with the Crowson, you just get that extra, not over the top extra though, that makes you smile just a bit more. Experiencing it at Craig's house again was a real treat since his is setup different then mine. Not that I don't, but Craig really has them dialed in really good. But again, I really like how it is setup in my room. It's a wow factor addition for sure.


----------



## Frohlich

Wonderful set-up. When I see Brolicbeast and MikeDuke drooling, I know the set-up is something special. Maybe someday I will have the resources and knowledge to build something comparable. Very well done.


----------



## MIkeDuke

When you take the entire package, meaning audio, video, and the room(seats), it's really hard not to say great things about Craig's system. I know Matt is excited to get his Legacy speakers. When he does, his system will also have some major drool factor. Not that it doesn't now, but I have a feeling that the new speakers will take that up a notch. Me, I think I have really good sound with a small screen. Oh well, what can you do







. Since I had to compromise on the picture size, I refuse to compromise on the sound. But Craig's setup everything setup right. In the right proportions. His sound and picture go hand in hand.


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frohlich*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23013611
> 
> 
> Wonderful set-up. When I see Brolicbeast and MikeDuke drooling, I know the set-up is something special. Maybe someday I will have the resources and knowledge to build something comparable. Very well done.


Hold up just a sec. I wrote that reply without talking a look at your system first. Are you kidding me? You hope to someday build something comparable. Um... I hate to say this, but you are already there. You have NAD gear, which I know is top notch. You have 7 JTR speakers and 2 JTR S2's. You have 4 automatic reclining chairs. And you have a 110" screen. I will say it again, you are there. The ONLY things I might suggest is if your preamp does not have XT32 maybe you should think about getting one that does like an Integra. Yea, Craig may have more power but your speakers are really sensitive as well so I am sure the NAD amp can make them sing. And he has a larger screen







. Like 110" isn't big enough. The only other thing I would recommend you look into are room treatments. They will make a world of difference and you will hear what your gear really sounds like. In fact, I would do that regardless of any of my other comments. If you are not sure where to start with treatments, as I said many times, I would look into, and contact GIK treatments. They will really help you out. But enough about not being there. You are closer then you think.


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frohlich*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23013611
> 
> 
> Wonderful set-up. When I see Brolicbeast and MikeDuke drooling, I know the set-up is something special. Maybe someday I will have the resources and knowledge to build something comparable. Very well done.



You know--a room designed from the ground up is a reflection of it's designer, and your room is quite drool inducing visually. Although I haven't ever heard JTR's offerings, the firm's reputation among the enthusiast community is purely positive, which leads me to believe it's audibly drool-inducing as well. I'd love to hear JTR's Noesis' horn-loaded compression driver in an a/b test with the Triad Platinum horn-loaded silk dome tweeters. Epic!


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23012403
> 
> 
> Hi Matt,
> 
> 
> If you're planning to do Wides and Sides, I think monopoles are a much better choice. I'm sure you can work around the placement issues. Instead of sitting in front of your F2's, could they sit on top of them? If not, then I think I would opt for "inside" the F2's at less than 60 degrees rather than "outside" the F2's at greater than 60 degrees. Can you try it out both ways before you install them?
> 
> 
> Craig



Craig, ive been thinking about this all day....I'll probably try to rig an old receiver to pull amp-passthrough duty so I can test this week or next.


----------



## Frohlich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23013815
> 
> 
> Hold up just a sec. I wrote that reply without talking a look at your system first. Are you kidding me? You hope to someday build something comparable. Um... I hate to say this, but you are already there. You have NAD gear, which I know is top notch. You have 7 JTR speakers and 2 JTR S2's. You have 4 automatic reclining chairs. And you have a 110" screen. I will say it again, you are there. The ONLY things I might suggest is if your preamp does not have XT32 maybe you should think about getting one that does like an Integra. Yea, Craig may have more power but your speakers are really sensitive as well so I am sure the NAD amp can make them sing. And he has a larger screen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Like 110" isn't big enough. The only other thing I would recommend you look into are room treatments. They will make a world of difference and you will hear what your gear really sounds like. In fact, I would do that regardless of any of my other comments. If you are not sure where to start with treatments, as I said many times, I would look into, and contact GIK treatments. They will really help you out. But enough about not being there. You are closer then you think.



I appreciate the kinds words Mike. I don’t want to threadjack Craiq’s thread so I will keep it short. I think on the L/C/R speaker front, projector front and room treatment front Craiq has the upper hand. I love my new room and am very blessed to able to have put it together. Seeing Craiq’s room, for example, gives me something to look forward to as I know there is room for improvement for me.


----------



## MIkeDuke

I won't thread jack either except to say that Craig's room is one of the rooms I look to for inspiration.


----------



## pokekevin

I've been wanting to demo the plats for awhile. I've heard a system comprising of Gold LCRs+ Silver LCRs for surrounds and loved em. Do you think they will do well for an 18x24 room?


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Frohlich*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23014079
> 
> 
> I appreciate the kinds words Mike. I don’t want to threadjack Craiq’s thread so I will keep it short. I think on the L/C/R speaker front, projector front and room treatment front Craiq has the upper hand. I love my new room and am very blessed to able to have put it together. Seeing Craiq’s room, for example, gives me something to look forward to as I know there is room for improvement for me.


Since HT is not a competitive sport, I try to stay away from comparing the relative goodness of one system vs. another. Your system looks absolutely fantastic, and I have no doubt you are very happy with it, and proud of it... as you should be. Still, it's nice to know that others appreciate the hard work we put into our "labors of love."










Craig


Edit: The "not-so-man-cave" is AWESOME!!!


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23014139
> 
> 
> I won't thread jack either except to say that Craig's room is one of the rooms I look to for inspiration.



Thanks Mike. See above as my response to Frohlich applies equally to you.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BrolicBeast*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23013895
> 
> 
> Craig, ive been thinking about this all day....I'll probably try to rig an old receiver to pull amp-passthrough duty so I can test this week or next.


Let us know how it goes. I'll be interested in your thoughts and impressions of the Wides in different positions.


Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pokekevin*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23014433
> 
> 
> I've been wanting to demo the plats for awhile. I've heard a system comprising of Gold LCRs+ Silver LCRs for surrounds and loved em. Do you think they will do well for an 18x24 room?


My room is 24' long. The width varies from 15' to about 19'. There is a stairwell off the right, front corner and a hallway to a bathroom in the rear, so the right side of the room is "uneven." The total cubic footage is about 3,800. Short answer... yes, I'm sure the Plat's would work well in your room. The seating distance is key. You want to be far enough away that the output of the drivers blends into a cohesive signal. I am 11' away, and I don't think I would want to be much closer than that. Ask Paul Scarpelli what the optimal minimum seating distance is. I'm sure he can tell you.


BTW, I think you've seen this before, but if I could do it over, I would seriously consider a "baffle wall" with the Plat's. Anthony Grimani uses these and they make the whole system significantly more efficient:

040601_baffled_again.pdf 182k .pdf file


Craig


Edited to fix link


----------



## thxman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23012366
> 
> 
> D-Box is so "over-the-top" it's gimmicky. It actually makes me nauseous.
> 
> Craig


When is the last time you tired D-Box? Also, did you know to can tweak it? You an adjust the motion and vibrations to almost infinite levels. At one point Crowson even wanted to be able to use D-Box codes for their vibrations due to the fact that they are more intelligently coded vs just running off the bass track. Hope I am not out of place here. I am a D-Box owner, and at one point I thought they sounded so gimmicky but now I don't enjoy movies nearly as much without it.


I do want to point out that I am not the biggest fan of the theater implementation of D-Box, but then again, I don't like going to the theater much anyway.


Great setup btw.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thxman*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23031554
> 
> 
> When is the last time you tired D-Box? Also, did you know to can tweak it? You an adjust the motion and vibrations to almost infinite levels. At one point Crowson even wanted to be able to use D-Box codes for their vibrations due to the fact that they are more intelligently coded vs just running off the bass track. Hope I am not out of place here. I am a D-Box owner, and at one point I thought they sounded so gimmicky but now I don't enjoy movies nearly as much without it.
> 
> 
> I do want to point out that I am not the biggest fan of the theater implementation of D-Box, but then again, I don't like going to the theater much anyway.
> 
> 
> Great setup btw.


Hi thxman,


I last tried D-Box at CEDIA 2 years ago in the D-Box booth. They weren't allowing any tweaking of the system. The effect they were using was really over the top. The scene they used was from _Live Free or Die Hard,_ the scene where Bruce Willis is driving the semi while being attacked by the plane. The tipping and tossing of the seat followed the action very well, but it was just way too much for me. It was only about a 2 minute demo, but I was slightly dizzy and nauseous the rest of the day from it. I've never tried D-Box while having the ability to adjust the system. I would imagine it would be better if I could adjust it to taste.


At that same CEDIA I spoke with Randy Crowson about their interest in using the D-Box track. It seemed like D-Box was being very "proprietary" about their track, and the impression I got was that they were not interested in sharing it with other tactile actuator vendors.

Nonetheless, so much of the D-Box programing is front/back and left/right motion, I'm not sure it would translate effectively to simple up/down motion.


Anyway, thanks for visiting my thread and the nice words.










Craig


----------



## DMark1

I had a DBox demo at a NYC audio show, and it was not to my taste either. We saw a Shrek demo, and were tossed about as Shrek rode in a runaway carriage and a horse. Most of the action lined up with what was happening on screen, but the program missed some obvious bumps in the action, which took me out of the moment. I also thought it was set too high, just to make the point of what it could do, but again, i found it more distracting than anything else. I much prefer the Crowson experience, where you feel exactly what is on the bass track, instead of a contrived DBox motion program. An especially after looking at the price difference, Crowson wins in my book.


----------



## thxman

Thank you both for describing your experiences. Your time is much appreciated. My 1st experience was with Iron Man 1 (1st fight scene) I have been sold every since. I don't want to derail your thread any further.


Going back on track, would love to hear the Triad Plats. They seem to fit the bill for my next upgrade.


----------



## pokekevin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23014694
> 
> 
> My room is 24' long. The width varies from 15' to about 19'. There is a stairwell off the right, front corner and a hallway to a bathroom in the rear, so the right side of the room is "uneven." The total cubic footage is about 3,800. Short answer... yes, I'm sure the Plat's would work well in your room. The seating distance is key. You want to be far enough away that the output of the drivers blends into a cohesive signal. I am 11' away, and I don't think I would want to be much closer than that. Ask Paul Scarpelli what the optimal minimum seating distance is. I'm sure he can tell you.
> 
> 
> BTW, I think you've seen this before, but if I could do it over, I would seriously consider a "baffle wall" with the Plat's. Anthony Grimani uses these and they make the whole system significantly more efficient:
> 
> 040601_baffled_again.pdf 182k .pdf file
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> Edited to fix link



Hmm sounds good! I'll definitely contact Paul Scarpelli to see what he thinks. He always seems to give out really solid advice!


On the side note I was looking at the crownson tranducers and was really interested in them till I saw the price. DAMN!


----------



## Franin

Hey Craig john Ive been doing catch up and read that your GTG was a success. Ive read great things about your theatre which is awesome. I would love to come to the States one day and catch up with all you guys. Take care mate talk to you soon.


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Franin*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23056018
> 
> 
> Hey Craig john Ive been doing catch up and read that your GTG was a success. Ive read great things about your theatre which is awesome. I would love to come to the States one day and catch up with all you guys. Take care mate talk to you soon.


Hi Frank,


If you ever do get to the US, do an East Coast Tour and come see all of us. Would love to have you over.


Craig


----------



## Franin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/300#post_23069383
> 
> 
> Hi Frank,
> 
> 
> If you ever do get to the US, do an East Coast Tour and come see all of us. Would love to have you over.
> 
> 
> Craig



Thank you Craig. My son (5yr old )wants to go to lego land in the States, apparently we've been told its amazing.


----------



## DIYHomeTheater




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/240#post_22625643
> 
> 
> 
> How is your HT coming along? Do you have the 8200's installed yet?
> 
> 
> Craig



Installed them this week. Not done Audyssey yet, but they sound awesome. My room is treated. Will run Audyssey once the seats are installed. Would like you to come visit. Thanks


----------



## craig john

Excellent Customer Service from Emotiva!!!!


I have owned an RPA-1 since 2007. It recently developed a problem where it would spontaneously shut off. You could turn it back on again, but then it would shut off spontaneously again a little while later. I called Emotiva and they thought it was a relay in the power switch. Since it was out of warranty, I asked for an estimate, but they were hesitant to provide one without seeing the amp. I boxed it up and sent it back to them, ($35 in shipping.) I called a couple days later and talked to the Service Manager, Joe E. He said they hadn't had a chance to look at it yet, but he would call me with an estimate. Two days later and no estimate... the amp shows up at my door. I open the box and here's the service ticket: "No Power. Replace power switch relay and front power button. N/C"


So not only did they fix it for free, they paid for the return shipping... on an amp that was well out of warranty.

















I just hooked it up in my system. For grins, I hooked it up to my L/R Triad Platinums, just to see how it sounded driving the big boys. The Plat's are usually driven by an Earthquake Sound Cinenova Grande 5. In stereo, playing Steely Dan, Aja on SACD @ -3, the RPA-1 sounded fabulous. Totally transparent and quiet. The VU meters were barely moving. I love this little amp. I don't think I'll ever part with it. And Emotiva's CS makes it a whole lot easier to love. Thanks Emotiva!


Craig


----------



## Franin

It's good when you get excellent customer service. Good to hear they looked after you Craig.


----------



## DMark1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/330#post_23280086
> 
> 
> Excellent Customer Service from Emotiva!!!!
> 
> 
> I have owned an RPA-1 since 2007. It recently developed a problem where it would spontaneously shut off. You could turn it back on again, but then it would shut off spontaneously again a little while later. I called Emotiva and they thought it was a relay in the power switch. Since it was out of warranty, I asked for an estimate, but they were hesitant to provide one without seeing the amp. I boxed it up and sent it back to them, ($35 in shipping.) I called a couple days later and talked to the Service Manager, Joe E. He said they hadn't had a chance to look at it yet, but he would call me with an estimate. Two days later and no estimate... the amp shows up at my door. I open the box and here's the service ticket: "No Power. Replace power switch relay and front power button. N/C"
> 
> 
> So not only did they fix it for free, they paid for the return shipping... on an amp that was well out of warranty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just hooked it up in my system. For grins, I hooked it up to my L/R Triad Platinums, just to see how it sounded driving the big boys. The Plat's are usually driven by an Earthquake Sound Cinenova Grande 5. In stereo, playing Steely Dan, Aja on SACD @ -3, the RPA-1 sounded fabulous. Totally transparent and quiet. The VU meters were barely moving. I love this little amp. I don't think I'll ever part with it. And Emotiva's CS makes it a whole lot easier to love. Thanks Emotiva!
> 
> 
> Craig



Glad to hear the Emotiva RPA-1 is back in action in the rack! Now, hopefully it won't be too long until Joseph gets your Earthquake amp fixed up too.


----------



## MIkeDuke

It's great when a company gives customer service like that. It really makes you want to support them. You are just getting the Earthquake "Upgraded" right? I mean, there was nothing wrong with it was there. Your system sounds fantastic as it is and I hope you get back to enjoying it in all it's full glory real soon. On an unrelated note, I had an issue with one of my Bryston amps and they were really good to deal with as well. Having that 20 year warranty doesn't hurt either







. I still think I have a few years left on them. But again, I hope you are up to 100% soon.


----------



## audioguy

Craig. Since my new room presents some issues in terms of symmetrical placement of subs (doors in the wrong places) I was wondering if u documented the methodology u used to come up with the position of your 3 "random" positioned subs!


----------



## craig john

Hi Chuck,


I documented the "final" measurements here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/4500#post_19446901 


I also described a lot of the decision making, and the logic I used, in that post and a few subsequent posts. However, the "methodology" involved dozens of FR measurements of the subs in different locations and in different combinations. In an "asymmetrical" arrangement, there is really no substitute for that.










Craig


PS. I'm concerned for your OCD mental health in an asymmetrical room.


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> PS. I'm concerned for your OCD mental health in an asymmetrical room.




So am I. Actually the room is symmetrical but door placement removes the ability to place my subs in a symmetrical location. I'm starting to tear up thinking about it. I will read your thread to see if I can reduce the number of combinations and permutations that I will need to explore.


----------



## mogrub




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/330#post_23280086
> 
> 
> Excellent Customer Service from Emotiva!!!! I have owned an RPA-1 since 2007. It recently developed a problem where it would spontaneously shut off. You could turn it back on again, but then it would shut off spontaneously again a little while later. I called Emotiva and they thought it was a relay in the power switch. Since it was out of warranty, I asked for an estimate, but they were hesitant to provide one without seeing the amp ...'Two days later and no estimate... the amp shows up at my door. I open the box and here's the service ticket: "No Power. Replace power switch relay and front power button. N/C". So not only did they fix it for free, they paid return shipping. I love this little amp. I don't think I'll ever part with it. And Emotiva's CS makes it a whole lot easier to love. Thanks Emotiva!



Thanks Craig. Great story. I'm glad to give my business to a company that's operating at such a high level on product quality and customer service. 👍


----------



## craig john

1st post updated with new equipment, recently added.


----------



## mankite

What's your thoughts of the Integra vs the Marantz?


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mankite*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/330#post_24241144
> 
> 
> What's your thoughts of the Integra vs the Marantz?


I know most people who've switched preferred the SQ of the Marantz. Personally, I'm not hearing it. Don't get me wrong, the Marantz sounds GREAT, but so did the Integra 80.2. Audyssey XT32 in both is, IMO, the final arbiter of the SQ. In some ways I prefer the Integra. The menus are easier to navigate in the Integra. Also, the Integra was THX certified and had the THX processing.


IMO, the Integra is the better value.


Craig


----------



## carp

Myself and a few other AVS guys were lucky enough to get a demo in Craig's room this last weekend. My good friend Jonathon (goes by Archaea) and I had flown out to the Philly area for a speaker GTG and were able to setup a time on Sunday to come over to Craig's house along with some other AVS friends - Mike (ironhead1230) and Ben (rush2049) and also Mark Seaton was able to make it (he was showing off his awesome Catalyst 12 speakers at the speaker GTG).


As soon as we met Craig I knew it was going to be a nice time. Very nice guy, friendly and very humble.










His room sounded great without anything playing - I could tell right away it was treated very well. It wasn't too dead either, just right IMO.


So, he starts off playing a blu-ray concert of some classical music. Unreal!! My immediate impression was that the image on the screen was the clearest I have ever seen. The movement of the musicians looked so real and the blacks! Wow, the blacks! Beautiful contrasts. Now, full disclosure, I'm not really a videophile guy, I'm much more into audio BUT I have been in a LOT of HT rooms and I've never seen a picture so life like. Wow!


Now, on to the sound. The concert blu-ray sounded great (understatement) but I hadn't heard that before so I couldn't really compare to past experiences. Next we watched some movie clips starting with King Kong. I noticed he had the volume set to 0 so I was expecting it to be VERY loud. It was not. I've heard movie clips at and above reference many times and I can never take that volume for very long. I have VERY sensitive speakers capable of incredible dynamics in my room but still going to reference is not something I do very often because it sounds so loud. In Craig's room reference sounded perfect for King Kong. Now, later we watched scenes from Terminator Salvation at -3 and this is a much louder movie IMO but still -3 in Craig's room reminded me of more like -10 in my own.


The surround effect was equal to the best I've ever heard (Randy Bessinger's room here in Kansas City, he has Trinnov) and the dialogue crystal clear and very life like.


Now about the bass.... I have a bit of an addiction to bass. I'm currently in therapy







for the condition but it's not going away any time soon. Did I miss the crazy bass that I have in my room during the movie demo's? Well, yes and no. Having the bass more level matched had some benefits that's for sure. It made the movie clips seem more realistic and I got lost in the movies more than I do with boosted low bass in my own room. I really liked that!


Now on to music. I listen to music A LOT in my room. I love sitting in the sweet spot and listening to stereo music and enjoying the soundstage from that spot and have spent a lot of time tweaking the exact settings of my speakers, postition of my main LP, toe in of the speakers, treatments on the walls for first reflections of each speaker as well as the ceiling half way between me and my mains, etc not to mention the constant upgrades in speakers for the past 3 years or so - oh yeah, and also eqing the subs to have just the right frequency curve that I like. I am now at the point where I like how music sounds in my room better than any room I've been in. I am not saying that I have the best speakers or my room has the best treatments or anything like that, it's just that I am used to the sound so it's what I prefer to anything I've heard - until now.


2 channel music in Craig's room is now my all time favorite. We did hear some songs I've familiar with so I can say that for sure. Why do I like it better? Here is where I fall short. I'm terrible at describing what I like about one setup over another.... all I know is the feeling I get while listening to music on a system and Craig's system does it for me.


My one regret is not bringing some heavier music over to sample. I do listen to all kinds of music now that I have some great speakers but I am a metal-head though and through. Most of it isn't recorded well, but a lot is. I would have loved to have heard any heavy bands like Metallica, Opeth, Dream Theater, Tool, Slayer, Black Sabbath etc. just to see how it compared to my room but I didn't have any of that with me.


What a cool afternoon though, Mark Seaton was spewing out advice left and right both in Craig's room and on our drive back to the airport - I think I can speak for Craig that it was so cool to have him along for the demo!


Later in the day Craig had a friend of his come over (Dennis -DMark1 - also a very nice guy!) and then we went back to his place to get a demo of his Legacy Whispers. That was great too! The room wasn't as well treated but I did love a lot of the music I heard from the Whispers. I would say that the singer was more defined in the soundstage with the Whispers than I have ever experienced. It's hard to explain what I mean. The voice was more distinct from the other instruments. Another thing I noticed was that the singer was higher up than I have heard before. I'm used to the singer being right in the center right in front of me. With the Whispers it seemed the singer was not only right in front of me but also higher up. I'm not sure if I preferred this or not, but if you think about it that's pretty cool because if the singer was in the room they would be standing, and it sounded like that's where the voice was. Now, maybe I'm nuts because I asked Jonathan if he noticed this and he did not so maybe it was just me.


I also liked the bass from the Whispers. They were run full range and no subs and the bass was very good. From what I have learned about bass frequencies and the many measurements I have taken in my own room I know that the chances of the frequency response being smooth at our LP was very low, but the bass still sounded great IMO.


I did get to hear Black Sabbath's Black Sabbath and NIB and thought it sounded fantastic. I like more bass (shocker) but I could have listened all day. I prefer how Sabbath sounds in my room, but not by much and i was loving it! I did think that Journey sounded thin but I blame this on Audyssey - I think we had Audyssey on for Don't Stop Believing (hmmm were we listening to the Whispers at that point or the other Legacy speakers?)


Oh yeah, the Submersives in both rooms sounded fantastic. I've owned dual Submersives and heard a ton of subs and IMO it's the best sounding sub you can buy.


One more thing. My ears should have been pretty fried from all the music I heard the day before at the all day GTG and then the day before that movie and music at another AVS friends house in DC. However, I had no fatigue at all listening to either system which says a lot IMO.


Jonathan will come along and post a much better/detailed review of both rooms than mine (including videos I believe), he's much better at that than I am, but I wanted to at least put in my 2 cents.


Thanks again Craig and Dennis!!


----------



## MIkeDuke

I posted this before in this thread but I really wanted to bring it to the front again. Given that a few guys went over to Craig's, I wanted to just re-post my thoughts. I hope that's O.K

I can only try.


When I use certain words, please do not think that I am using them in a disparaging way. I will start with my own system. My speakers are maybe 91db sensitive and really are full range in my room. I know I can listen with the sub on(for music), but more often then not, I just listen to music in bypass mode. Unless it is a MC SACD or DVD-A. I ocasionally listen in one of the multi-channel modes of the Integra but I guess I am just stubborn







. My system, IMHO, presents the music in a more "calm" way then compared to Craig's Triads. Forget about the dynamics, in which there is no comparison between the two, Craig "wins" that one hands down. If you look back in my thread at my measurements, you will find that they are very good. I think they even surprised Craig, The RT time really was a shock to him I think. I am right on the money with the RT measurement so the decay is probably as good as I can get in this room. That gives the entire sound, highs to bass an incredible "presence" and start stop feeling. The music and movie effects just start and stop on a dime. At least I think they do.


Now, I have Dire Straits Brothers in arms as a remastered CD and Craig has it as a SACD so it is not a true comparison. I really like the way this CD sounds on my system. I can get a great sound stage and the instruments all sound real and correct. I really can't hear anything wrong with the way it plays the CD. In bypass mode or regular stereo mode. I can say that another CD I have, TOOL 10,000 days, often fools me into thinking my surrounds are on even when I know I am listening in bypass mode. That's how good of an image I can get. Now, in Craig's system, it is a whole different kettle of fish. His system has a clarity that I have rarely heard on any system, even my own. That Brothers in Arms SACD was just magnificent on his system. Since I think it was a MC SACD, the sound filling the room was remarkable. The Vocals coming from that center were some of the best and cleanest I have ever heard. Here is an interesting tidbit that I did not mention before. When we first started, Craig did not realize that something was amiss with one of his amps. It turns out we were first only listening to the silver wide speakers he had and no center. I have to say, with music, that sounded pretty good. But then when he realized the problem and fixed it, and we were running the Plats, well, I think you can guess the results. But again, if I were to try and compare my system to his, it is still hard to do. I really like the sonic signature of my speakers. If we move to movies, you can again hear the difference.


Craig's speakers just keep on going louder with no problem at all. That center is simply fantastic. Spoken words are just so damn clean and clear. Now in my room, with movies, I still like how my speakers sound and I think Craig would also agree that they sound very good. But mine would probably give up the ghost at really really high levels. Lucky for me, my room is small enough that my Focal's get plenty loud before I can hear any breakup. In Craig's room, having 9 speakers around the room just puts you in the middle of the music or movie. It is quite the experience. Now don't get me wrong, I still really like my system and I love the way it sounds. But Craig's system is just that much above mine as putting you in the action. But, for movies, I can get close to that as well I think in my small room. They obviously sound different. The Triads are more "direct" and crisp as compared to my Focal speakers. At least, that's the best way I can explain it. I am not as good at describing "mid range" sound and the like. I think the fact that my speakers were designed ported and full range make them sound much different than Craig's speakers which were not meant to be full range and are sealed. Craig's speakers have more snap to them then mine. Not that mine are soft in the mid range. I think vocals and any instruments that are located in that area of sound are really well represented by my speakers. But Craig's speakers being able to play louder and not as low, present the mid range in a different way.


Even in Craig's large room, when we were only listening to the other speakers and not the center, the sound stage was quite good. That is one area where I think there is not much difference in our systems. I have fooled myself many times into thinking the center was on when it was not. Even though Craig's room is much bigger, and his mains are further apart, he too can get a very nice center phantom effect. I know this is long but I still have a bit more to say







. Regarding bass. In my room, the bass is first rate, IMHO. Craig did a fantastic job calibrating the sub. It just fills the room. Adding the Crowson was the icing on the cake. Now it is even a better, more fun experience for me. Craig's bass system is just plain sick. He is on a concrete floor so the SubMersive are on a concrete floor but his chairs and Crowson are on a riser that he built. Because he has an older amp, I think he can crank his Butt Kicker amp a little higher then I can so the tactile effect is "more" than what I get. I still get it and enjoy it, but I am afraid to put it much above 3 on the amp for fear of burning the Crowson out again. I have it right below 3 and I do get a nice sensation at that level. I may try to put it right at three because truthfully, my amp is more sensitive then his and even the slightest movement on the level makes an impact. So as far as bass goes, I am closer with the Crowson in my room but really, watching Avatar had me saying "Anybody who has an issue with the bass in this movie needs to watch it here." I think that's about it.


I just wanted to add again that Craig is a great guy. I will try and make this part quick. I first somehow contacted Craig about room treatments. We started to talk and he asked if I have ever measured my room. I said no. He said he would be willing to come down and do it for me. WHAT???? Here is a guy, I did not even know yet, and he was willing to come down and measure my room. From that point on we became friends. I can't tell you how many times Craig and Dennis have come down to help me out with my system. If it's a calibration(way more then once) or installing new gear, Craig and Dennis have been willing to help me out. For someone who can't work on their own system, I take that very seriously.


But I will just end on this note. I have never had a total HT experience anyplace else like I have had when I go to Craig's house. That's not me sucking up. That's the the truth. Anyway, I think I have said enough







.


----------



## audioguy

I have not been fortunate enough to hear Craig's system but I have no doubt it is exceptional. Here is what I do know: Being around Craig or reading his thread or emailing him or talking to him can cause you to spend money. Near as I can calculate, based upon his visits some number of years ago, and subsequent emails and phone calls, I have probably spent $15,000: 4 new Seaton Sparks ($6000) since he had sold me 4 surround speaker mounts (which are now for sale) and I needed to purchase more speakers so that I could use them all







; a new AT screen ($1100) so I could put my center channel behind it (since that is what he did) PLUS the building of a screen wall to support the behind the screen center channel plus electrical and drywall and .... ($2000); and since I needed a new screen I was also forced (OK, maybe that is too strong of a word) to get a new masking system ($4600); plus a few other odds and ends.


Warning: If you visited Craig this past weekend, have your wife hide your checkbook and your credit cards.


You have been warned !!!


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/330#post_24246572
> 
> 
> Myself and a few other AVS guys were lucky enough to get a demo in Craig's room this last weekend. My good friend Jonathon (goes by Archaea) and I had flown out to the Philly area for a speaker GTG and were able to setup a time on Sunday to come over to Craig's house along with some other AVS friends - Mike (ironhead1230) and Ben (rush2049) and also Mark Seaton was able to make it (he was showing off his awesome Catalyst 12 speakers at the speaker GTG).
> 
> 
> As soon as we met Craig I knew it was going to be a nice time. Very nice guy, friendly and very humble.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His room sounded great without anything playing - I could tell right away it was treated very well. It wasn't too dead either, just right IMO.
> 
> 
> So, he starts off playing a blu-ray concert of some classical music. Unreal!! My immediate impression was that the image on the screen was the clearest I have ever seen. The movement of the musicians looked so real and the blacks! Wow, the blacks! Beautiful contrasts. Now, full disclosure, I'm not really a videophile guy, I'm much more into audio BUT I have been in a LOT of HT rooms and I've never seen a picture so life like. Wow!
> 
> 
> Now, on to the sound. The concert blu-ray sounded great (understatement) but I hadn't heard that before so I couldn't really compare to past experiences. Next we watched some movie clips starting with King Kong. I noticed he had the volume set to 0 so I was expecting it to be VERY loud. It was not. I've heard movie clips at and above reference many times and I can never take that volume for very long. I have VERY sensitive speakers capable of incredible dynamics in my room but still going to reference is not something I do very often because it sounds so loud. In Craig's room reference sounded perfect for King Kong. Now, later we watched scenes from Terminator Salvation at -3 and this is a much louder movie IMO but still -3 in Craig's room reminded me of more like -10 in my own.
> 
> 
> The surround effect was equal to the best I've ever heard (Randy Bessinger's room here in Kansas City, he has Trinnov) and the dialogue crystal clear and very life like.
> 
> 
> Now about the bass.... I have a bit of an addiction to bass. I'm currently in therapy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for the condition but it's not going away any time soon. Did I miss the crazy bass that I have in my room during the movie demo's? Well, yes and no. Having the bass more level matched had some benefits that's for sure. It made the movie clips seem more realistic and I got lost in the movies more than I do with boosted low bass in my own room. I really liked that!
> 
> 
> Now on to music. I listen to music A LOT in my room. I love sitting in the sweet spot and listening to stereo music and enjoying the soundstage from that spot and have spent a lot of time tweaking the exact settings of my speakers, postition of my main LP, toe in of the speakers, treatments on the walls for first reflections of each speaker as well as the ceiling half way between me and my mains, etc not to mention the constant upgrades in speakers for the past 3 years or so - oh yeah, and also eqing the subs to have just the right frequency curve that I like. I am now at the point where I like how music sounds in my room better than any room I've been in. I am not saying that I have the best speakers or my room has the best treatments or anything like that, it's just that I am used to the sound so it's what I prefer to anything I've heard - until now.
> 
> 
> 2 channel music in Craig's room is now my all time favorite. We did hear some songs I've familiar with so I can say that for sure. Why do I like it better? Here is where I fall short. I'm terrible at describing what I like about one setup over another.... all I know is the feeling I get while listening to music on a system and Craig's system does it for me.
> 
> 
> My one regret is not bringing some heavier music over to sample. I do listen to all kinds of music now that I have some great speakers but I am a metal-head though and through. Most of it isn't recorded well, but a lot is. I would have loved to have heard any heavy bands like Metallica, Opeth, Dream Theater, Tool, Slayer, Black Sabbath etc. just to see how it compared to my room but I didn't have any of that with me.
> 
> 
> What a cool afternoon though, Mark Seaton was spewing out advice left and right both in Craig's room and on our drive back to the airport - I think I can speak for Craig that it was so cool to have him along for the demo!
> 
> 
> Later in the day Craig had a friend of his come over (Dennis -DMark1 - also a very nice guy!) and then we went back to his place to get a demo of his Legacy Whispers. That was great too! The room wasn't as well treated but I did love a lot of the music I heard from the Whispers. I would say that the singer was more defined in the soundstage with the Whispers than I have ever experienced. It's hard to explain what I mean. The voice was more distinct from the other instruments. Another thing I noticed was that the singer was higher up than I have heard before. I'm used to the singer being right in the center right in front of me. With the Whispers it seemed the singer was not only right in front of me but also higher up. I'm not sure if I preferred this or not, but if you think about it that's pretty cool because if the singer was in the room they would be standing, and it sounded like that's where the voice was. Now, maybe I'm nuts because I asked Jonathan if he noticed this and he did not so maybe it was just me.
> 
> 
> I also liked the bass from the Whispers. They were run full range and no subs and the bass was very good. From what I have learned about bass frequencies and the many measurements I have taken in my own room I know that the chances of the frequency response being smooth at our LP was very low, but the bass still sounded great IMO.
> 
> 
> I did get to hear Black Sabbath's Black Sabbath and NIB and thought it sounded fantastic. I like more bass (shocker) but I could have listened all day. I prefer how Sabbath sounds in my room, but not by much and i was loving it! I did think that Journey sounded thin but I blame this on Audyssey - I think we had Audyssey on for Don't Stop Believing (hmmm were we listening to the Whispers at that point or the other Legacy speakers?)
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, the Submersives in both rooms sounded fantastic. I've owned dual Submersives and heard a ton of subs and IMO it's the best sounding sub you can buy.
> 
> 
> One more thing. My ears should have been pretty fried from all the music I heard the day before at the all day GTG and then the day before that movie and music at another AVS friends house in DC. However, I had no fatigue at all listening to either system which says a lot IMO.
> 
> 
> Jonathan will come along and post a much better/detailed review of both rooms than mine (including videos I believe), he's much better at that than I am, but I wanted to at least put in my 2 cents.
> 
> 
> Thanks again Craig and Dennis!!



Hi Sheldon,


Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough and thoughtful review of Dennis' and my systems. I can't tell you how much it means when someone with the same passion for our hobby recognizes and appreciates the work it takes to get a system to this level. I've been at this since 1986, when I installed my first "theater" in my basement. (Sam Runco trademarked the term "home theater" in 1990, but I've had one longer than that!







) My first theater consisted of a 50" rear projection Pioneer TV, (which was a HUGE TV in it's day), a pair of Klipsch Forte speakers and a Pioneer receiver. I had both a Super VHS and a Sony BetaMax.







I even had "room treatments" in that first theater. The front and side wall were covered with rockwool and fabric in an LEDE arrangement. Over the ensuing quarter century plus, it has evolved to the theater you saw and heard on Sunday. It's been a long journey, with lots of iterations and combinations of equipment.


Adding the Triad Platinums was the best upgrade I've ever made, (well, that and the Submersives.) The first time I heard them, I played that _"Money For Nothing"_ SACD track by Dire Straits. After that opening crescendo, I had goosebumps, and I knew immediately I was buying them. I don't know about you, but I had goosebumps again when we played it on Sunday.


One thing we forgot to do on Sunday was that tornado scene from _Oz, The Great And Powerful._ We talked about it but never got around to playing it. That scene has a prolonged run of 25 - 40 Hz that will scramble your innards with the Earthquake shakers:

 


It's a fun ride and the Earthquake shakers shake significantly harder than the Crowsons. There are other things they don't do as well, as we discussed, but on this scene and others, they are much more powerful. Since you now have a Crowson, it would have been interesting to get your thoughts on them.


I'm sorry I didn't have any of the heavy metal music you enjoy. Another member, DreamWarrior, visited me a few weeks ago and he is into that same type of music. He brought some along, although TBH, I can't remember any of the names of the bands or the songs. He could probably tell you. Anyway, he felt that the Triads didn't quite have the maximum output he was looking for, or at least I wasn't willing to go as loud as he wanted. We actually had my amp go into "thermal protection" mode so we were hitting the limits of my system. IDK if the speakers had more left, but my 650 watt @ 4 Ohm amp was done. It eventually cooled down and is fine, and I might be able to get more out of it with a cooling fan. I may do that eventually. DreamWarrior ended up buying the Seaton Catalysts that were sold at the GTG. I expect he found the speakers he was looking for. The Seatons will likely have more output than the Triad Platinums. The JTR's as well would likely have higher ultimate limits than the Triads.


It was great to have Mark Seaton here. I learn something ever time I talk to him.


Anyway, it was a fun day. Maybe I'll get to KC sometime and you can give me a listen to the JTR's and your incredible subs.










Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MIkeDuke*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/330#post_24246822
> 
> 
> I posted this before in this thread but I really wanted to bring it to the front again. Given that a few guys went over to Craig's, I wanted to just re-post my thoughts. I hope that's O.K
> 
> I can only try.
> 
> 
> When I use certain words, please do not think that I am using them in a disparaging way. I will start with my own system. My speakers are maybe 91db sensitive and really are full range in my room. I know I can listen with the sub on(for music), but more often then not, I just listen to music in bypass mode. Unless it is a MC SACD or DVD-A. I ocasionally listen in one of the multi-channel modes of the Integra but I guess I am just stubborn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . My system, IMHO, presents the music in a more "calm" way then compared to Craig's Triads. Forget about the dynamics, in which there is no comparison between the two, Craig "wins" that one hands down. If you look back in my thread at my measurements, you will find that they are very good. I think they even surprised Craig, The RT time really was a shock to him I think. I am right on the money with the RT measurement so the decay is probably as good as I can get in this room. That gives the entire sound, highs to bass an incredible "presence" and start stop feeling. The music and movie effects just start and stop on a dime. At least I think they do.
> 
> 
> Now, I have Dire Straits Brothers in arms as a remastered CD and Craig has it as a SACD so it is not a true comparison. I really like the way this CD sounds on my system. I can get a great sound stage and the instruments all sound real and correct. I really can't hear anything wrong with the way it plays the CD. In bypass mode or regular stereo mode. I can say that another CD I have, TOOL 10,000 days, often fools me into thinking my surrounds are on even when I know I am listening in bypass mode. That's how good of an image I can get. Now, in Craig's system, it is a whole different kettle of fish. His system has a clarity that I have rarely heard on any system, even my own. That Brothers in Arms SACD was just magnificent on his system. Since I think it was a MC SACD, the sound filling the room was remarkable. The Vocals coming from that center were some of the best and cleanest I have ever heard. Here is an interesting tidbit that I did not mention before. When we first started, Craig did not realize that something was amiss with one of his amps. It turns out we were first only listening to the silver wide speakers he had and no center. I have to say, with music, that sounded pretty good. But then when he realized the problem and fixed it, and we were running the Plats, well, I think you can guess the results. But again, if I were to try and compare my system to his, it is still hard to do. I really like the sonic signature of my speakers. If we move to movies, you can again hear the difference.
> 
> 
> Craig's speakers just keep on going louder with no problem at all. That center is simply fantastic. Spoken words are just so damn clean and clear. Now in my room, with movies, I still like how my speakers sound and I think Craig would also agree that they sound very good. But mine would probably give up the ghost at really really high levels. Lucky for me, my room is small enough that my Focal's get plenty loud before I can hear any breakup. In Craig's room, having 9 speakers around the room just puts you in the middle of the music or movie. It is quite the experience. Now don't get me wrong, I still really like my system and I love the way it sounds. But Craig's system is just that much above mine as putting you in the action. But, for movies, I can get close to that as well I think in my small room. They obviously sound different. The Triads are more "direct" and crisp as compared to my Focal speakers. At least, that's the best way I can explain it. I am not as good at describing "mid range" sound and the like. I think the fact that my speakers were designed ported and full range make them sound much different than Craig's speakers which were not meant to be full range and are sealed. Craig's speakers have more snap to them then mine. Not that mine are soft in the mid range. I think vocals and any instruments that are located in that area of sound are really well represented by my speakers. But Craig's speakers being able to play louder and not as low, present the mid range in a different way.
> 
> 
> Even in Craig's large room, when we were only listening to the other speakers and not the center, the sound stage was quite good. That is one area where I think there is not much difference in our systems. I have fooled myself many times into thinking the center was on when it was not. Even though Craig's room is much bigger, and his mains are further apart, he too can get a very nice center phantom effect. I know this is long but I still have a bit more to say
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Regarding bass. In my room, the bass is first rate, IMHO. Craig did a fantastic job calibrating the sub. It just fills the room. Adding the Crowson was the icing on the cake. Now it is even a better, more fun experience for me. Craig's bass system is just plain sick. He is on a concrete floor so the SubMersive are on a concrete floor but his chairs and Crowson are on a riser that he built. Because he has an older amp, I think he can crank his Butt Kicker amp a little higher then I can so the tactile effect is "more" than what I get. I still get it and enjoy it, but I am afraid to put it much above 3 on the amp for fear of burning the Crowson out again. I have it right below 3 and I do get a nice sensation at that level. I may try to put it right at three because truthfully, my amp is more sensitive then his and even the slightest movement on the level makes an impact. So as far as bass goes, I am closer with the Crowson in my room but really, watching Avatar had me saying "Anybody who has an issue with the bass in this movie needs to watch it here." I think that's about it.
> 
> 
> I just wanted to add again that Craig is a great guy. I will try and make this part quick. I first somehow contacted Craig about room treatments. We started to talk and he asked if I have ever measured my room. I said no. He said he would be willing to come down and do it for me. WHAT???? Here is a guy, I did not even know yet, and he was willing to come down and measure my room. From that point on we became friends. I can't tell you how many times Craig and Dennis have come down to help me out with my system. If it's a calibration(way more then once) or installing new gear, Craig and Dennis have been willing to help me out. For someone who can't work on their own system, I take that very seriously.
> 
> 
> But I will just end on this note. I have never had a total HT experience anyplace else like I have had when I go to Craig's house. That's not me sucking up. That's the the truth. Anyway, I think I have said enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Thanks for re-posting this Mike. I remember that day. We had fun! As I said to Sheldon, that Dire Straits SACD is incredible. Your comments reconfirm this again.


We've had some good times listening to your system also. I really like your system, and you've done a great job integrating it into your room. Your acoustic treatments have turned what could be an acoustic nightmare into a little slice of heaven. Keep on enjoying that great system.










Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/330#post_24247426
> 
> 
> I have not been fortunate enough to hear Craig's system but I have no doubt it is exceptional. Here is what I do know: Being around Craig or reading his thread or emailing him or talking to him can cause you to spend money. Near as I can calculate, based upon his visits some number of years ago, and subsequent emails and phone calls, I have probably spent $15,000: 4 new Seaton Sparks ($6000) since he had sold me 4 surround speaker mounts (which are now for sale) and I needed to purchase more speakers so that I could use them all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ; a new AT screen ($1100) so I could put my center channel behind it (since that is what he did) PLUS the building of a screen wall to support the behind the screen center channel plus electrical and drywall and .... ($2000); and since I needed a new screen I was also forced (OK, maybe that is too strong of a word) to get a new masking system ($4600); plus a few other odds and ends.
> 
> 
> Warning: If you visited Craig this past weekend, have your wife hide your checkbook and your credit cards.
> 
> 
> You have been warned !!!



I'm not comin' back to your theater. That would probably cost me $14,000 for a new projector. Yeah, yeah, yeah, then you could say we're even, but I'm perfectly happy with my current projector.







I've had it calibrated by a guy who does incredible work, (Ryan, if you're reading this THANKS AGAIN!)


I am thinking about one of those new Seymour AV screens with the built-in masking, so I'll blame that on YOU! Dennis, just received his, and we need to install it this weekend, so I'll check that out and make a decision.


In your new room, since it's upstairs on a suspended floor, do you get a lot of tactile feedback from the floor?


Craig


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/330#post_24250977
> 
> 
> but I'm perfectly happy with my current projector.



I was as well until I saw the 1000 and then Sony announced the 600. So, your idea of not seeing what could be is incredibly wise.


> Quote:
> I am thinking about one of those new Seymour AV screens with the built-in masking, so I'll blame that on YOU! Dennis, just received his, and we need to install it this weekend, so I'll check that out and make a decision.


Is that the screen that uses magnetically held masking panels?


Once I switched out the two piece top and bottom frame pieces to a single piece for my Seyour screen, the frame went together quickly and hung perfectly. Great product so thanks for the recommendation .... plus it's a WHOLE lot cheaper than the Stewart microperf screen of the same size.


> Quote:
> In your new room, since it's upstairs on a suspended floor, do you get a lot of tactile feedback from the floor?



With the one completed movie and multiple movie clips I have watched, yes I do get tactile feedback!! It is very difficult to get accustomed to as I have never experienced it before. I'm not sure I'll ever get completely used to it though there is nothing I can do to eliminate it. And I can't help but have a couple of brain cells worrying about the structural integrity of the floor given that amount of air the system can move.


I still don't have the sound I had in my other room but am getting closer. With the new OmniMic 5.1 disk, I have been diddling with sub distance(s) to get the smoothest response for all speakers (still haven't figured out the best way to deal with all four surrounds) . While the LR response does not look quite as good as they would if I only concentrated on them, the overall sound is really much better. I had always measured the subs along with either the left or right speaker for adjusting the sub distance but it is really much more productive to measure the center channel along with the sub. In fact, I have adopted your procedure of adjusting each sub distance individually to get the best overall response.


I loaned the 5.1 OmniMic disk to a friend and he did the procedure above and got great results.


Craig[/quote]


----------



## MIkeDuke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/330#post_24250930
> 
> 
> Thanks for re-posting this Mike. I remember that day. We had fun! As I said to Sheldon, that Dire Straits SACD is incredible. Your comments reconfirm this again.
> 
> 
> We've had some good times listening to your system also. I really like your system, and you've done a great job integrating it into your room. Your acoustic treatments have turned what could be an acoustic nightmare into a little slice of heaven. Keep on enjoying that great system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig


No problem Craig. Those were my first thoughts and they still hold true today. Trust me, it was an acoustic nightmare. I still owe Mark S the initial credit for me trying to make "the room" better. He said he was" please with the results we got in Mike's small, untreated room." He also said my wall unit was killing my audio. After that, and after I got rid of the wall unit, is when I contacted you. The room is the way it is because of you and Dennis. Remember when my racks were together? It was you guys who recommended we separate them. I thought it would be to much work, but you guys did it anyway. And it was Dennis I think who said we should try moving the SubMersive out of the corner. That also made a huge difference.


Going over to your place has always been great. Seeing your system has always made me try and get the most out of my system. The Crowson,. That's on you. After I experienced that I had to have it even with my small room and single chair. I am so glad I did that. But at some point I would like to see what the Earthquake system is like. I can agree that The Great and Powerful Oz really makes the Crowson move. Along with a whole bunch of other movies. So again, you cost me money as well







. Anyway, I know you just about reached the apex. I guess the scree idea would be the last thing.


Thanks again for the nice words about my system. It wouldn't be this good without your guidance. I just wish it were bigger so I could fit more then just 1 or 2 other people. Oh well. I do enjoy it and I will continue to.


----------



## carp

Craig, what was the name of that Blu-ray you played first that had the symphony playing? That was incredible!


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carp*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/330#post_24251488
> 
> 
> Craig, what was the name of that Blu-ray you played first that had the symphony playing? That was incredible!


I put a post in the Submersive thread with the info on that disc: http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/8940#post_24241082 That disc is amazing. Dennis, who is a classical percussionist, turned me on to that one.


Craig


----------



## craig john




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioguy*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/330#post_24251135
> 
> 
> Is that the screen that uses magnetically held masking panels?


No, it's the electric drop down screen with electric drop down masking panels. You can do it 2 ways... 1. a 16x9 screen with a single drop down panel from the top for 2.35:1, (you use the projector to "scroll" the bottom black bar off the bottom of the screen), or, 2. a 2.35:1 screen with two masking panels dropping down on either side for 16x9. http://www.seymourav.com/masking.asp (go all the way to the bottom of the page.)


> Quote:
> Once I switched out the two piece top and bottom frame pieces to a single piece for my Seyour screen, the frame went together quickly and hung perfectly. Great product so thanks for the recommendation .... plus it's a WHOLE lot cheaper than the Stewart microperf screen of the same size.


The Stewart needs extra EQ for the screen; the Seymour does not. Did you get to talk to Chris Seymour? He's a very nice guy and very helpful.


> Quote:
> With the one completed movie and multiple movie clips I have watched, yes I do get tactile feedback!! It is very difficult to get accustomed to as I have never experienced it before. I'm not sure I'll ever get completely used to it though there is nothing I can do to eliminate it. And I can't help but have a couple of brain cells worrying about the structural integrity of the floor given that amount of air the system can move.


The structural integrity shouldn't be a huge problem. My friend, pepar, has had incredible tactile response in his 2nd floor theater for years and his house is still standing.







Enjoy the effect and don't worry about it.










> Quote:
> I still don't have the sound I had in my other room but am getting closer. With the new OmniMic 5.1 disk, I have been diddling with sub distance(s) to get the smoothest response for all speakers (still haven't figured out the best way to deal with all four surrounds) . While the LR response does not look quite as good as they would if I only concentrated on them, the overall sound is really much better. I had always measured the subs along with either the left or right speaker for adjusting the sub distance but it is really much more productive to measure the center channel along with the sub. In fact, I have adopted your procedure of adjusting each sub distance individually to get the best overall response.
> 
> 
> I loaned the 5.1 OmniMic disk to a friend and he did the procedure above and got great results.


Yeah, I discussed that trick using the CC with Mark Seaton again this weekend. He reconfirmed that it really works. You need to use PLIIx Movie, (or Cinema) mode. PLIIx Music won't work, but you probably knew that.


Craig


----------



## audioguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craig john*  /t/1349395/craig-johns-theater/330#post_24251612
> 
> 
> No, it's the electric drop down screen with electric drop down masking panels. You can do it 2 ways... 1. a 16x9 screen with a single drop down panel from the top for 2.35:1, (you use the projector to "scroll" the bottom black bar off the bottom of the screen), or, 2. a 2.35:1 screen with two masking panels dropping down on either side for 16x9. http://www.seymourav.com/masking.asp (go all the way to the bottom of the page.)
> 
> The Stewart needs extra EQ for the screen; the Seymour does not. Did you get to talk to Chris Seymour? He's a very nice guy and very helpful.
> 
> The structural integrity shouldn't be a huge problem. My friend, pepar, has had incredible tactile response in his 2nd floor theater for years and his house is still standing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy the effect and don't worry about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I discussed that trick using the CC with Mark Seaton again this weekend. He reconfirmed that it really works. You need to use PLIIx Movie, (or Cinema) mode. PLIIx Music won't work, but you probably knew that.
> 
> 
> Craig



The Carada Masking system I use is like your number 2 option (Constant Image Height). I have a friend who now owns my JVC and he was using CIW with masking panels that come up from the bottom and down from the top (Stewart). With the new projector, he is moving to a larger screen (52 x 122) and is acquiring the same Panamorph that I think you use and will run all his viewing (mostly movies) through it. No masking


Yes I did talk to Chris and he made a very fair exchange from the two piece top/bottom to the single piece. He is a nice guy. The owner of Carada is also an incredibly nice and very helpful guy. The patience of Job.


I would like to clarify my understanding the use of PLIIx Movie. With this new disk, it will send signals to the 5.1 channels (individually as I select the channel) so I am assuming the use of PLIIx will send the side channel surround signal to the rear surrounds? (I would imagine I will have to unplug the side surrounds to be able to measure the rears?) Is this correct?


----------



## audioguy

Given all of the huge accolades you received from those that recently visited your home, I am definitely going to come visit. First thing is to get my system as good as it can be. Something is apparently not right with my right speaker (plots sent to Mark) so I will move it to the center channel and then re-calibrate the room. Once I am very accustomed to the sound, I will contact you for some available time to come visit.


If I had to speculate now, a lot of the differences I am hearing in this room versus the last is that this room is a good bit more damped. For two channel, it is less obvious. While I have exchanged hardwood floors (last room) up front with carpet in this room, my first reflection point is all diffusive versus diffusive and absorptive in my last room.


Congrats on the accolades. I have no doubt they are well deserved.


----------



## BrolicBeast




> Craig, after reading all the kudos being given to you and your room, I felt the urge to search your thread until I found my impressions after my visit to your place last year.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are my impressions from February 2013.
> 
> 
> 
> I may have to drop you a line to discuss possibly replicating some of your treatment methods in the new room.  How did you come up with your treatment design? As a fellow Plat owner, I know what my theater experience *can potentially *be.  Now I just have to get there.


----------



## mankite

Craig, are you going Atmos?


----------



## craig john

mankite said:


> Craig, are you going Atmos?


ATM, no. I would need to add 4 in-ceiling Silver Monitors, 4 channels of amplification plus a new pre/pro. That would be a minimum $12k investment... for a technology that only has ONE movie currently available??? In addition, I would need to give up my Wides and Rears... unless I went with an uber-expensive, ($16-20K), pre/pro. I'm just not seeing the "value" in that investment.

Craig


----------



## MIkeDuke

Hey Craig, price not withstanding, would you have to give up your sides and heights simply because the more affordable preamps don't have enough speaker outputs? In theory, you could do both if you were willing to spend the money right? I mean Atmos and your wide/height setup are not mutually exclusive are they? You could keep your 9 speaker setup as is and just add the four if you wanted to couldn't your? Or would the Atmos layout requirements make you move those to other spots.


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Hey Craig, price not withstanding, would you have to give up your sides and heights simply because the more affordable preamps don't have enough speaker outputs? In theory, you could do both if you were willing to spend the money right? I mean Atmos and your wide/height setup are not mutually exclusive are they? You could keep your 9 speaker setup as is and just add the four if you wanted to couldn't your? Or would the Atmos layout requirements make you move those to other spots.


Hi Mike,

TBH, I haven't really looked that closely at all the options for Atmos. Nor have I looked at all the different processors and receivers. At this point, I know I would have to sacrifice at least my Wides to run Atmos, (unless I spent a ridiculous amount of money on a processor that will likely be obsolete in short order.) Sacrificing Wides just to add Overheads doesn't seem like a significant upgrade to me, and it certainly doesn't justify the huge investment I would need to make. In addition, I think there are still some issues with the HDMI spec and HDCP, (although admittedly I am not fully informed of all those details.)

At this point, IMO, it's not a mature enough technology, (yet), to warrant an investment, at least not from me. I will sit out the first round and wait to see how much better the 2nd generation processors are. In addition, I would like to see what DTS comes up with. For now, I'm quite content with 9.3 and Wides using DTS NeoX in my Marantz 8801. 

How about you? Are you considering Atmos? It would probably be difficult to implement in your room with your LP against the back wall and your surrounds mounted up high on the side walls. But... where there's a will... 

Craig


----------



## asoofi1

MIkeDuke said:


> Hey Craig, price not withstanding, would you have to give up your sides and heights simply because the more affordable preamps don't have enough speaker outputs? In theory, you could do both if you were willing to spend the money right? I mean Atmos and your wide/height setup are not mutually exclusive are they? You could keep your 9 speaker setup as is and just add the four if you wanted to couldn't your? Or would the Atmos layout requirements make you move those to other spots.






craig john said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> TBH, I haven't really looked that closely at all the options for Atmos. Nor have I looked at all the different processors and receivers. At this point, I know I would have to sacrifice at least my Wides to run Atmos, (unless I spent a ridiculous amount of money on a processor that will likely be obsolete in short order.) Sacrificing Wides just to add Overheads doesn't seem like a significant upgrade to me, and it certainly doesn't justify the huge investment I would need to make. In addition, I think there are still some issues with the HDMI spec and HDCP, (although admittedly I am not fully informed of all those details.)
> 
> At this point, IMO, it's not a mature enough technology, (yet), to warrant an investment, at least not from me. I will sit out the first round and wait to see how much better the 2nd generation processors are. In addition, I would like to see what DTS comes up with. For now, I'm quite content with 9.3 and Wides using DTS NeoX in my Marantz 8801.
> 
> How about you? Are you considering Atmos? It would probably be difficult to implement in your room with your LP against the back wall and your surrounds mounted up high on the side walls. But... where there's a will...
> 
> Craig



Currently, you can either do 7.x.4 or 9.x.2 with atmos receivers released thus far. So only 2 ceiling speakers with a 9 channel step. The most effective is with 4 ceiling speakers get the panning effect of any sound overhead.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## craig john

asoofi1 said:


> Currently, you can either do 7.x.4 or 9.x.2 with atmos receivers released thus far. So only 2 ceiling speakers with a 9 channel step. The most effective is with 4 ceiling speakers get the panning effect of any sound overhead.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I guess I should have also mentioned... I want to continue to use Audyssey XT32.


----------



## MIkeDuke

craig john said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> TBH, I haven't really looked that closely at all the options for Atmos. Nor have I looked at all the different processors and receivers. At this point, I know I would have to sacrifice at least my Wides to run Atmos, (unless I spent a ridiculous amount of money on a processor that will likely be obsolete in short order.) Sacrificing Wides just to add Overheads doesn't seem like a significant upgrade to me, and it certainly doesn't justify the huge investment I would need to make. In addition, I think there are still some issues with the HDMI spec and HDCP, (although admittedly I am not fully informed of all those details.)
> 
> At this point, IMO, it's not a mature enough technology, (yet), to warrant an investment, at least not from me. I will sit out the first round and wait to see how much better the 2nd generation processors are. In addition, I would like to see what DTS comes up with. For now, I'm quite content with 9.3 and Wides using DTS NeoX in my Marantz 8801.
> 
> How about you? Are you considering Atmos? It would probably be difficult to implement in your room with your LP against the back wall and your surrounds mounted up high on the side walls. But... where there's a will...
> 
> Craig


Got you on all that. I have never heard it so I can't say how fantastic it is or what the differences would be with speakers over your head instead of wides and heights like you have. As for me, I don't think it would happen for a number of reasons. One, is that it seems like for a setup that I have, you need 4 overhead speakers. Right now I have enough space for two amps. Even if I replaced my one 3ch with a 5ch that would only give me 7ch total. That's not enough. I would have to replace both with a 5ch then I could do it with 10ch of amplification. I really don't feel like doing that. The other thing to do would be to replace both my racks with other racks that would allow me to place another amp in addition to the ones I already have. But that would be a major undertaking and I could not do that myself.

Then there is the placement of the speakers over head. They would probably not be in the right spots. I admit that I am not as much as a stickler as you are with regards to knowing listening and viewing angles. But they would not be over head. They would be just outside of my main listening position. So I don't know if that would be an issue. 

Another issue is replacing a working preamp with something else. I think you why that would be an issue . Those are just a few things that I can come up with now. The only thing I could see myself doing is trying to set up a 7.1 system. But I don't know where the other two speakers would go. Also, that would require me to get the 5ch and replace my 3ch amp. I think in my room, 7 speakers are probably enough. I would like to get the matching SR1000be speakers and see if I could put them on my back wall but they are A LOT of money. I need to see where they can go and how they would needed to be setup. But keeping what I have and trying to just add two more for a 7.1 setup is probably the easiest. Plus, let's not forget that we are going to try and get a FP system in my room. That will take some skill as well, if you know what I mean. So that's it. Your room is already outstanding and if it's not worth the effort, it's not like you will be slumming it with your current 9.3 setup .

P.S check out post 1057 in my thread regarding a link you wanted me to show you about the Panny and what I think are its limitations.


----------



## randallhill

Hi Craig John,


Curious...what RTA software, computer, and OS did you use that is shown on post #1 , page #1 ...I'd like to measure my subs FR individually (like you), before and after Audyssey XT32.


Thanks!


----------



## craig john

randallhill said:


> Hi Craig John,
> 
> 
> Curious...what RTA software, computer, and OS did you use that is shown on post #1 , page #1 ...I'd like to measure my subs FR individually (like you), before and after Audyssey XT32.
> 
> 
> Thanks!


I use XTZ Room Analyzer. Here is the "official" thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...264522-official-xtz-room-analyzer-thread.html

The current US distributor for XTZ Room Analyzer is Acoustic Frontiers: 
http://store.acousticfrontiers.com/XTZ-Room-Analyzer-II-Pro.html
http://store.acousticfrontiers.com/XTZ-Room-Analyzer-II-Standard.html

The graphs posted on Page 1 were done with RA Standard. I have since switched to the Pro version, and greatly prefer it. It works with most any PC running most any version of Windows. 

Good luck.

Craig


----------



## Spanglo

Great job on the room. The reviews I've been reading here are beyond excellent. I have yet to read a single criticism, which is rare for forums, but obviously a testament to the total quality of your HT. Extra props for achieving such a high level experience without a ultra high-end price tag - very impressive.

In many ways I've tried to emulate your system, and you have definitely influenced a number of my HT decisions. One of more recent was to rearrange my room and go with a 2.35 screen, so thanks a ton for that one. You've also played a significant role in my HT education. Over the years I've paid especially close attention to the advice you give others, and you're one of the few who's information always seems be on point. So again thank you, and congrats on the nice HT.


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## craig john

Spanglo said:


> Great job on the room. The reviews I've been reading here are beyond excellent. I have yet to read a single criticism, which is rare for forums, but obviously a testament to the total quality of your HT. Extra props for achieving such a high level experience without a ultra high-end price tag - very impressive.
> 
> In many ways I've tried to emulate your system, and you have definitely influenced a number of my HT decisions. One of more recent was to rearrange my room and go with a 2.35 screen, so thanks a ton for that one. You've also played a significant role in my HT education. Over the years I've paid especially close attention to the advice you give others, and you're one of the few who's information always seems be on point. So again thank you, and congrats on the nice HT.


Wow! I almost don't know what to say... other than... Thank you for the kind words. I'm humbled. Truly. 

I just looked at your WYSC thread. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-what-s-your-system-configuration/1195711-setup-small-apartment.html I really like the evolution of your HT. You did a serious overhaul, with some big improvements, not just in equipment, but in room configuration and layout. You've certainly integrated many of the important principles of proper HT design: proper subwoofer placement optimized with measurements, proper seating placement, proper surround speaker placement, acoustic treatments, etc. I'm sure the new configuration looks and sounds a lot better. If I had some small part in that, I'm certainly happy to have helped.  

Thanks for stopping by my thread, and please continue to enjoy your HT. 

Craig


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## audioguy

I had an opportunity to visit Craig's room today. He's a great guy; great host and fellow addict!!

His system is EXCELLENT (both audio and video). The Triad Platinum LCR's are a serious HT speaker - but hang in there with the best for music as well. He played some great concert videos (Steely Dan being on top of the list) that, in his room, are just over the top. In addition to the concert/music videos, we played some 2 channel, some movie clips and a few other cuts as well. The Plats have a wonderful midrange, dynamics up the ying yang and do everything you would want a speaker to do - at least for a speaker that cost less than a nice SUV!

I sat immersed in the sweet spot all afternoon and loved every minute of it. Even on those occassions where the volume creeped north of reference, there was never any listener fatigue -just a floating sonic image from floor to ceilng and from behind the listener to behind the speakers. Certainly one of the top 3 or 4 best HT audio experiences I have ever enjoyed (the best costing about 10x what Craig has invested).

The room is appropriatley treated to extract the max out of the system. Really, really well done. I thorougly enjoyed myself. And did I say his system was EXCELLENT !!

PS. And this is the first time I have ever experienced a seat acutator system that actually increased the listening experience instead of taking me out of it.

Great system and thanks for your hospitality.


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## MIkeDuke

Glad you got to experience it first hand Chuck. Yep, Craig's system is probably the best I have heard to date. Only one other system that I experience years ago could come close, but that was many times more expensive when compared to Craig's system, and I am still not convinced it was better. 

Yep, his audio and video are just too damn good. It is also because of him that I bought a Crowson for my system. Craig is a great guy and very willing to share his knowledge. That is why my system sounds as good as it does. So again, glad you got to experience it.


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## mankite

My condolences on Green Bay. Never seen such a thing in my life.


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## craig john

audioguy said:


> I had an opportunity to visit Craig's room today. He's a great guy; great host and fellow addict!!
> 
> His system is EXCELLENT (both audio and video). The Triad Platinum LCR's are a serious HT speaker - but hang in there with the best for music as well. He played some great concert videos (Steely Dan being on top of the list) that, in his room, are just over the top. In addition to the concert/music videos, we played some 2 channel, some movie clips and a few other cuts as well. The Plats have a wonderful midrange, dynamics up the ying yang and do everything you would want a speaker to do - at least for a speaker that cost less than a nice SUV!
> 
> I sat immersed in the sweet spot all afternoon and loved every minute of it. Even on those occassions where the volume creeped north of reference, there was never any listener fatigue -just a floating sonic image from floor to ceilng and from behind the listener to behind the speakers. Certainly one of the top 3 or 4 best HT audio experiences I have ever enjoyed (the best costing about 10x what Craig has invested).
> 
> The room is appropriatley treated to extract the max out of the system. Really, really well done. I thorougly enjoyed myself. And did I say his system was EXCELLENT !!


Thanks Chuck. It was a really fun weekend.* 

*(For those reading along, it turned out to be a full weekend instead of a 1-day visit. As I was driving Chuck back to the airport on Sunday morning, we ran into the ice storm that blanketed the northeast on Sunday. One second the road was fine... and the next second we were skating on a sheet of ice. I was standing on the brakes and the car was not stopping! Fortunately, we were able to get to the shoulder and stopped without spinning, without hitting anything and without anything hitting us. However, up ahead we could see that some other drivers were not so lucky. We sat for almost 3 hours while they worked to clear the road and get it de-iced, at which point we turned around and came back to my house. Chuck got to watch the Packers/Seahawks game with us and some of my local Packer fan friends... and share in our agony. He then got home on Monday, all safe and sound. Quite an adventure.  )

Anyway, thanks for your kind words about my system. It's been a lifelong work-in-progress, and those are real compliments coming from a guy who has also spent a lifetime in audio. The ultimate compliment is that it looks like you are going to buy a full set of Triad speakers: 
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/921427-triad-owner-s-thread-224.html#post30990594
It'll be really interesting to see how they work in your room, and what you do to optimize/integrate them. I can't wait for you to get them setup and dialed in so I can get your impressions of them in your room and system. I know I'll be taking a trip to Atlanta sometime in the future! 

The music DVD we listened to first was Steely Dan's _Gaucho_ in 5.1 hi-rez DVD-Audio. We listened to it with DTS Neo:X applied, which added the Wides and Rears, thus making it a 9.1 experience. In my experience, this combination of a multichannel recording with DTS Neo:X extracting the Wides and Rears is the most seamless, immersive and holographic listening experience I've ever had, which is the reason I played it for you first. It puts you in the middle of the soundstage, and literally surrounds you with dynamic and fluid music. The 2-channel stuff we listened to later was good, (and even better when we upscaled it to multichannel), but it just can't compare to content that is native multichannel. It's really sad that DVD-A and SACD died a premature death, and that BluRay Music has not taken off as an alternative. 



audioguy said:


> PS. And this is the first time I have ever experienced a seat acutator system that actually increased the listening experience instead of taking me out of it.


Thanks Chuck. The Crowsons are the real deal, and I'm glad you liked them. Seat actuators are not easy to integrate into an audio system, and I've spent an enormous amount of time getting them to "*add* to the experience without taking the listener out of the moment. As with anything in AV, it's all about setup. 



audioguy said:


> Great system and thanks for your hospitality.


I really enjoyed the weekend too, (except for the driving and the end of the Packer game.) 

Craig


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Glad you got to experience it first hand Chuck. Yep, Craig's system is probably the best I have heard to date. Only one other system that I experience years ago could come close, but that was many times more expensive when compared to Craig's system, and I am still not convinced it was better.
> 
> Yep, his audio and video are just too damn good. It is also because of him that I bought a Crowson for my system. Craig is a great guy and very willing to share his knowledge. That is why my system sounds as good as it does. So again, glad you got to experience it.


Mike, meeting you and your family is one of the best benefits I've realized from being an AVS Forum member. Thanks for being my friend. 

Craig


----------



## craig john

mankite said:


> My condolences on Green Bay. Never seen such a thing in my life.


I am still in a state of shock and disbelief. I literally can't believe we went from being 4 minutes from going to the Superbowl... to going... home.... season over... done. 

We were clearly the BEST team for 56 of the 60 regulation minutes. We dominated every aspect of the game. How we could collapse at the end like that is just unthinkable. 

It will take Packer fans a long time to get over this loss. Our best hope is that Aaron Rodgers uses this to put (another) chip on his shoulder and make it a motivation. 

Craig


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## mankite

When you think of how many things had to happen for that outcome it doesn't seem like real life. The first thing was why in gods name did the defender go to the ground on the interception instead of trying to score or at least get more yards. There was still 4 min left. Then I kept saying to myself if they can keep them from scoring until under 2 min left its over, they score with 2:07 left. Then the 2 point conversion which was a joke. Then a guy that was supposed to be a blocker tries to field the ball on the onside kick when if he just blocked like he was supposed to Jordy Nelson would have definitely snatched it up.


----------



## audioguy

That may have been the most disastrous final 5 minutes in the history of pro football playoffs. It was very difficult to watch. It gives new meaning to the expression: "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory".


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## MIkeDuke

craig john said:


> Mike, meeting you and your family is one of the best benefits I've realized from being an AVS Forum member. Thanks for being my friend.
> 
> Craig


Thanks Craig. The same to you. I mean that.
But on to that GB game. I can not believe that it finished like that. That onside kick was like out of a circus. I am so upset that they lost. 

But what can you do. It will probably be a good super bowl in which I want neither team to win.


----------



## asoofi1

mankite said:


> When you think of how many things had to happen for that outcome it doesn't seem like real life. The first thing was why in gods name did the defender go to the ground on the interception instead of trying to score or at least get more yards. There was still 4 min left. Then I kept saying to myself if they can keep them from scoring until under 2 min left its over, they score with 2:07 left. Then the 2 point conversion which was a joke. Then a guy that was supposed to be a blocker tries to field the ball on the onside kick when if he just blocked like he was supposed to Jordy Nelson would have definitely snatched it up.


There was someone on the field who waved the defender to actually go down...it was weird...being conservative at the wrong time.


----------



## Kain

Hi Craig,

Few questions for you...

1. If I am not mistaken, you had the Catalyst 12C speakers prior to your current Triad speakers. Any comments/opinions on how the two compare?

2. You sit about 11 ft from your AT screen. Do you see any screen artifacts during bright scenes? Do you think roughly 8 ft would be too close to sit from an AT woven screen?


----------



## craig john

Kain said:


> Hi Craig,
> 
> Few questions for you...
> 
> 1. If I am not mistaken, you had the Catalyst 12C speakers prior to your current Triad speakers. Any comments/opinions on how the two compare?


I never owned the Cat's. Prior to the Triads, I owned some Atlantic Tech 8200e's. However, I have heard the Cat's several times. They're great speakers. They'll get VERY loud. I prefer the sound quality of the Triads, but have nothing bad to say about the Cat's.



Kain said:


> 2. You sit about 11 ft from your AT screen. Do you see any screen artifacts during bright scenes? Do you think roughly 8 ft would be too close to sit from an AT woven screen?


I have the Seymour AV xD screen material. I see no screen artifacts at 11 ft, and I don't see any as I approach he screen until I get to about 4 ft. However, if I was concerned about screen artifacts, I would consider the Enlightor 4K screen material. http://www.seymourscreenexcellence.com/materials.asp

Good luck and thanks for looking at my page!  (I really should update this. It hasn't been done in a while.)

Craig


----------



## Kain

craig john said:


> I never owned the Cat's. Prior to the Triads, I owned some Atlantic Tech 8200e's. However, I have heard the Cat's several times. They're great speakers. They'll get VERY loud. I prefer the sound quality of the Triads, but have nothing bad to say about the Cat's.
> 
> 
> I have the Seymour AV xD screen material. I see no screen artifacts at 11 ft, and I don't see any as I approach he screen until I get to about 4 ft. However, if I was concerned about screen artifacts, I would consider the Enlightor 4K screen material. http://www.seymourscreenexcellence.com/materials.asp
> 
> Good luck and thanks for looking at my page!  (I really should update this. It hasn't been done in a while.)
> 
> Craig


Thanks! 

Sorry for hijacking your thread, but I have just one more question. If I cannot build a baffle wall for the AT screen and I can't (or more like don't want) to hang the screen from the ceiling in front of the LCR speakers because the ceiling is quite high at 9.5 ft, what options do I have to place (or suspend) the AT screen in front of the LCR speakers? I am guessing I could place it on a stand? If you view the following video and skip to 1:22, I like the stand they are using. Could I use something similar even for an AT screen?


----------



## craig john

Kain said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Sorry for hijacking your thread, but I have just one more question. If I cannot build a baffle wall for the AT screen and I can't (or more like don't want) to hang the screen from the ceiling in front of the LCR speakers because the ceiling is quite high at 9.5 ft, what options do I have to place (or suspend) the AT screen in front of the LCR speakers? I am guessing I could place it on a stand? If you view the following video and skip to 1:22, I like the stand they are using. Could I use something similar even for an AT screen?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvQWU-7FLb0


Certainly you could use a stand like that. However, I would try to design it so that the legs and side braces do not sit in front of the speakers. You don't want to have the sound diffracting off a hard solid object close to the speakers. How wide is the screen you're planning to use? Depending on the size of the screen, you could potentially place the L/R's outside the screen edges. This gives a slightly wider soundstage. 

Also, if you use a stand, be sure it is well-braced so it can't tip over. I don't know if Seymour AV sells the stand shown in that video, or if it's just a one-of that they use for shows. If they sell it, ask Chris S about it. 
Good luck.

Craig


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## Kain

craig john said:


> Certainly you could use a stand like that. However, I would try to design it so that the legs and side braces do not sit in front of the speakers. You don't want to have the sound diffracting off a hard solid object close to the speakers. How wide is the screen you're planning to use? Depending on the size of the screen, you could potentially place the L/R's outside the screen edges. This gives a slightly wider soundstage.
> 
> Also, if you use a stand, be sure it is well-braced so it can't tip over. I don't know if Seymour AV sells the stand shown in that video, or if it's just a one-of that they use for shows. If they sell it, ask Chris S about it.
> Good luck.
> 
> Craig


Thanks.

Here's a rough drawing of my new proposed setup.










Viewing distance will be roughly 8 ft. I want the largest 16:9 screen I can "appropriately" have. I want a 16:9 screen instead of a CinemaScope screen because the width of the two screens, in my room, will be the same. So why not get a 16:9 screen and have an even bigger image for 16:9 movies.


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## craig john

The door next to the left speaker is an issue. Is it "open" or is there an actual door there? Which way does the door swing? 

Is the long red thing on the front wall a screen or a CC speaker? If it's a screen, I don't see any space for the CC behind the screen? You'll need to move the screen forward so you can place the CC behind it. 

If it's a CC speaker, and you're using an AT screen, I suggest you forgo a horizontal CC and get a 3rd matching, vertical speaker, the same as your L/R's. This will give you the very best chance possible to have an ideal timbre-match for your front 3 speakers. Both Seaton and Triad will sell 3 identical speakers for the front soundstage... and I'm sure both companies will tell you a 3rd identical speaker, vertically depolyed is the best option. 

With a 12 ft. front wall, you could probably go with a 92" to 106" screen at an 8 ft. seating distance. I myself would probably go with a 100" screen, especially if your going 16:9. a 100" diagonal screen is 87" wide x 49" tall. That should leave you about 28" on either side of the screen for the L & R speakers. In the Triad line, with that listening distance, I would suggest the Gold LCR's, or if you want to spend the money, the Gold Monitors. Platinums would be way overkill in your room at your listening distance, as would Seaton Cat 12c's. In the Seaton line, I would use the 8c's. 

Craig


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## Kain

There is an actual door there and it opens into the room. I will be reversing the door to open outwards to the room. That long red thing is the center speaker. When I made this drawing, I had an actual TV in mind but now I'm considering a projector. The main goal of using an AT screen is to have identical LCR speakers. I'll most likely be going for Alcons Audio speakers with Seaton Sound subwoofers. I was thinking of getting a 110" 16:9 screen and having all three of the LCR speakers behind the screen. Hope the screen won't too overwhelmingly big from an 8 ft or so viewing distance? If it won't be, could I go even bigger?

Lastly, you recommended the Seymour Enlightor-4K screen. Does it have a requirement for a minimum distance between the LCR speakers and the screen?

Thanks a lot for your input!


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## craig john

Kain said:


> There is an actual door there and it opens into the room. I will be reversing the door to open outwards to the room. That long red thing is the center speaker. When I made this drawing, I had an actual TV in mind but now I'm considering a projector. The main goal of using an AT screen is to have identical LCR speakers. I'll most likely be going for Alcons Audio speakers with Seaton Sound subwoofers. I was thinking of getting a 110" 16:9 screen and having all three of the LCR speakers behind the screen. Hope the screen won't too overwhelmingly big from an 8 ft or so viewing distance? If it won't be, could I go even bigger?


This is a personal preference thing. Do you like to sit in the front row in the movie theater? Personally, I don't like to sit that close. I find it overwhelming and I don't like having to move my head to look side to side or up and down. I prefer an image size I can take in with little to no head movement. So, I personally would not go that big. However, if you peruse the forum, you'll find people who like even bigger screens for that close a distance. It's just personal preference, and I can't tell you what yours is. The best way to figure it out is to hang a white sheet and a projector with a zoom feature. Zoom it in and out until you find the image size you feel most comfortable with. This may be a PIA, but it's a very important decision, (in fact, it's probably the FIRST decision you should make in your HT design),so it's worth the effort. Otherwise, you'll end up doing what I did... having 4 screens over a few years:

* 92" 16:9, (not big enough)
* 110" 16:9 (too big)
* 100" 16:9 (just right, but not 2.35:1)
* 120" 2.35:1 with Panamorph lens (perfect)





Kain said:


> Lastly, you recommended the Seymour Enlightor-4K screen. Does it have a requirement for a minimum distance between the LCR speakers and the screen?
> 
> Thanks a lot for your input!


I honestly don't know the minimum distance for the Enlightor 4K screen material. If it's similar to the xD material, you can be as close as 2". I suggest you ask Chris Seymour: [email protected]

Craig


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## Kain

Thanks again. 

Say you are deciding between a 16:9 and a CinemaScope screen. The max horizontal width potential of both screens is the same (in this room), so the only difference will be the height difference each aspect ratio offers. Any reason to go for a CinemaScope screen? I mean displaying a CinemaScope movie on a 16:9 screen (in this room) will offer a CinemaScope image size that will be equal to what you'd experience with a CinemaScope screen.


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## craig john

Kain said:


> Thanks again.
> 
> Say you are deciding between a 16:9 and a CinemaScope screen. The max horizontal width potential of both screens is the same (in this room), so the only difference will be the height difference each aspect ratio offers. Any reason to go for a CinemaScope screen? I mean displaying a CinemaScope movie on a 16:9 screen (in this room) will offer a CinemaScope image size that will be equal to what you'd experience with a CinemaScope screen.


If you don't find the black bars distracting when you when you watch Scope content on a 16:9 screen, then a 16:9 screen would be fine. I have several friends who do this. A high contrast projector can help in this regard, but anything with a dynamic iris will cause the black bars to "bloom" as the average in-scene light level changes. I personally find that very distracting.

The other alternative would be a masking system to mask off the black bars, but that adds expense, and I'm not sure it would work when mounted on a stand like the one you are considering. Screen Excellence has a number of masking options, so again, Chris Seymour will be your best resource for answers.

Craig


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## craig john

It's been 2.5 years since I last posted in this thread.  In the meantime, all the picture links got lost. I have re-attached some of them, and taken new pic's to replace the others. 

I plan to do an Atmos upgrade in the fall, and I will be updating here as that progresses. 

Craig


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## Balbolito

Nice Thread, since it's a month from your last update, did you manage to install those Atmos speakers?


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## craig john

Balbolito said:


> Nice Thread, since it's a month from your last update, did you manage to install those Atmos speakers?


Thanks for asking. I have not had a chance to do the upgrade yet. Because of my dropped acoustical ceiling, the whole thing is a little more complicated than most Atmos upgrades. I'm trying to figure how to enclose some unenclosed in-ceiling speakers to mount them in the grid-work of the dropped ceiling. Once I figure that part out, I'll be proceeding.



I heard a system very similar to mine this past weekend, and it had Atmos.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-d...1498937-beast-unleashed-225.html#post56889390

I was convinced, yet again, that I need to do this upgrade. I just haven't figured out all the details yet.


Craig


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## Balbolito

craig john said:


> Thanks for asking. I have not had a chance to do the upgrade yet. Because of my dropped acoustical ceiling, the whole thing is a little more complicated than most Atmos upgrades. I'm trying to figure how to enclose some unenclosed in-ceiling speakers to mount them in the grid-work of the dropped ceiling. Once I figure that part out, I'll be proceeding.
> 
> 
> 
> I heard a system very similar to mine this past weekend, and it had Atmos.
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-d...1498937-beast-unleashed-225.html#post56889390
> 
> I was convinced, yet again, that I need to do this upgrade. I just haven't figured out all the details yet.
> 
> 
> Craig


Yeah once i installed my first pair of Atmos ceiling speakers i was blown away by the new sound! never expected that two little speakers overhead could do this. i was really missing info from most of the audio tracks in movies.


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## MIkeDuke

Well it's about damn time this thread got resurrected . It's still one of the best systems that *I* have heard. Adding Atmos will be killer in this room. So any thoughts on a processor?
And, um, well, I have to ask. Is 4k in the future as well (runs and hides in the corner). And what kind of speakers and how many.


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## FOH

Hey Craig

Any update on the expansion into ATMOS in your system?


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## craig john

FOH said:


> Hey Craig
> 
> Any update on the expansion into ATMOS in your system?


Hi my friend, haven't seen you on the form in a while! Good to hear from you. 



I should have an update coming soon. I was abale to complete a lot of the installation yesterday, but I need to do some calibrations and EQ before I comment further. I will say this... I watched Dunkirk in Atmos last night without a full cal, (just levels and distances) and it was AWESOME! 



More to come soon including new pics and measurements. 



Thanks for continuing to follow my thread. 


Craig


PS @MIkeDuke


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## MIkeDuke

Can't wait to get a full report. My envy monster (not too bad) is starting to wake up again . Really looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Mine thoughts don't count on how atmos is since I am cheating and I don't know what it really is supposed to sound like. My system does sound good and I do get great surround effects. But to me, not much of right over or in front and above me. But I don't care. The 7.1 plus what I perceive to be much better surround sound is good enough for me. But as I said, I am looking forward to your report. I am not sure you answered my question but what preamp did you settle on?

As I said, looking forward to hearing your thoughts once everything is calibrated.


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## BP1Fanatic

Looking forward to seeing the updates!


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## craig john

BP1Fanatic said:


> Looking forward to seeing the updates!


I've been meaning to get back to this. The Atmos/DTS:X update is finished, just needs some paint. My wife picked out the new colors, but we haven't gotten it done yet. Soon... I hope. 


Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Can't wait to read what you think Craig. And looking forward to the new pics. And yes, Dunkirk is crazy sound wise.


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## BrolicBeast

FOH said:


> Hey Craig
> 
> 
> 
> Any update on the expansion into ATMOS in your system?



I came here to ask this exact question!!!



craig john said:


> ... I watched Dunkirk in Atmos last night without a full cal, (just levels and distances) and it was AWESOME!



The kicker here is that Dunkirk is 5.1 lossless because Christopher Nolan does not believe in immersive audio. You heard the proficiency of immersive audio upmixing!!! Wasn’t it grand? I do it to every single track that’s not native immserive! 



craig john said:


> I've been meaning to get back to this. The Atmos/DTS:X update is finished, just needs some paint. My wife picked out the new colors, but we haven't gotten it done yet. Soon... I hope.
> 
> 
> Craig



I am on the edge of my seat on this one. Please Please Please give us verbal updates, pictures, calibrations details, and....most importantly.....G2G DATES!!!!!  



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## audioguy

Anyone out there??


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## craig john

audioguy said:


> Anyone out there??


Yes... we're WAY out there. We're on a two week riverboat cruise of the Rhone River, ending in Paris and attending the French Open. I haven't been checking the forum. I'll have more to say when we return. 
Craig


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## audioguy

craig john said:


> Yes... we're WAY out there. We're on a two week riverboat cruise of the Rhone River, ending in Paris and attending the French Open. I haven't been checking the forum. I'll have more to say when we return.
> Craig


Good for you. Enjoy the trip and RELAX - and drink lots of good wine.

We just back from two weeks in Italy - where I (somehow) managed to gain 12 pounds !!


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## highmr

*mixing speaker brands*

It seemed from your post in the loudspeaker science thread that you have RSL C34Es for ceiling speakers. That is what I have. Do you use this room for music or movies only? If for music, and since we were also talking about options such as Dolby Surround for music, do you find any problem with this mix of speakers? I don't notice anything particularly objectionable with my mismatched system (Revels in LCR, two of which are in wall speakers) with simulated multi channel music play back.


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## craig john

highmr said:


> It seemed from your post in the loudspeaker science thread that you have RSL C34Es for ceiling speakers. That is what I have. Do you use this room for music or movies only? If for music, and since we were also talking about options such as Dolby Surround for music, do you find any problem with this mix of speakers? I don't notice anything particularly objectionable with my mismatched system (Revels in LCR, two of which are in wall speakers) with simulated multi channel music play back.


I do have the RSL C34E's for my height channels. I use the system for both movies and music. I don't use DSU much as I seem to prefer the DTS upmixer. However, neither of them makes use of the Wides I have in my system, so I'm not overly happy with either of them. Atmos uses the Wides when the content is Atmos, but if it's upmixed from any lesser codec, it doesn't. DTS:X doesn't use them at all, even with their Neural:X upmixer.!  The older DTS:NeoX but that's no longer available since the introduction of Neural:X. 


I think the RSL's are a decent match with my Triad speakers, but I wish I could have used the Triad In-Ceiling Silver Monitors. They would have been a perfect timbre-match for my other surrounds, as they are the exact same speaker just packaged differently. I do like the angled speaker baffle, the rotation of the faceplate and the aimability of the tweeter. 



What are your thoughts?


Craig


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## mhrischuk

I've been to Craig's place and listened to his system. Craig has it very well sound engineered with amazing absorption and controlled reflection.


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## audioguy

craig john said:


> I do have the RSL C34E's for my height channels. I use the system for both movies and music. I don't use DSU much as I seem to prefer the DTS upmixer. However, neither of them makes use of the Wides I have in my system, so I'm not overly happy with either of them. Atmos uses the Wides when the content is Atmos, but if it's upmixed from any lesser codec, it doesn't. DTS:X doesn't use them at all, even with their Neural:X upmixer.!  The older DTS:NeoX but that's no longer available since the introduction of Neural:X.





craig john said:


> I think the RSL's are a decent match with my Triad speakers, but I wish I could have used the Triad In-Ceiling Silver Monitors. They would have been a perfect timbre-match for my other surrounds, as they are the exact same speaker just packaged differently. I do like the angled speaker baffle, the rotation of the faceplate and the aimability of the tweeter.
> 
> What are your thoughts?




Triad In Ceiling Silver Monitors for Atmos? At an MSRP of $2000 each? Heck, I thought the Triad IN-CEILING ROTATING SILVER/9 SATs were expensive at $800 each.

I'm still not convinced that even the In-Ceiling Silver Monitors (which match the tweeters in the Plats and Silver Monitors) would have been any better than the RSLs or any other reasonable in-ceiling speakers - given a reasonable EQ system - and Audyssey qualifies.


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## craig john

audioguy said:


> Triad In Ceiling Silver Monitors for Atmos? At an MSRP of $2000 each? Heck, I thought the Triad IN-CEILING ROTATING SILVER/9 SATs were expensive at $800 each.
> 
> I'm still not convinced that even the In-Ceiling Silver Monitors (which match the tweeters in the Plats and Silver Monitors) would have been any better than the RSLs or any other reasonable in-ceiling speakers - given a reasonable EQ system - and Audyssey qualifies.


It's wierd... Triad was the speaker company who worked with Dolby to develop Atmos. How is it that they have no ceiling speakers that are optimized for Atmos? When I was looking at Atmos ceiling speakers, Dawn told me not to use the In-Ceiling Rotating Silver/9 Sats because they would not be a good timbre-match. She suggested I stay with the In-ceiling Silver Monitors. I also looked at the In-ceiling Silver Mini-Monitors as they use the same drives as the Monitors, just one less mid-woofer. Neither could be properly aimed at the LP, and they were both way more than I wanted to spend. So, I went with the RSL's. I had heard them at @BrolicBeast's house and they seemed to keep up with the Plat's just fine. I figured Audyssey could do a good job of timbre-matching. I had backer boxes built for them so they became enclosed speakers. 



I had some issues with setting levels, as the Audysseyset levels of the Heights were off by 3 to 5 dB, (too low). Once I got that figured out, the RSL are good, but they're not what I would call "great." 



I just wish that Triad would make a real, dedicated Atmos ceiling speaker that has a great timbre-match to the Plat's and can be aimed precisely at the LP. If the Silver Monitors had been that, I would have (begrudgingly) spent the money. Should I reconsider the In-Ceiling Rotating Silver/9 Sats? Do they have the output required to keep up with the Plat's? 



Craig


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## audioguy

craig john said:


> It's wierd... Triad was the speaker company who worked with Dolby to develop Atmos. How is it that they have no ceiling speakers that are optimized for Atmos? When I was looking at Atmos ceiling speakers, Dawn told me not to use the In-Ceiling Rotating Silver/9 Sats because they would not be a good timbre-match. She suggested I stay with the In-ceiling Silver Monitors. I also looked at the In-ceiling Silver Mini-Monitors as they use the same drives as the Monitors, just one less mid-woofer. Neither could be properly aimed at the LP, and they were both way more than I wanted to spend. So, I went with the RSL's. I had heard them at @BrolicBeast's house and they seemed to keep up with the Plat's just fine. I figured Audyssey could do a good job of timbre-matching. I had backer boxes built for them so they became enclosed speakers.
> 
> I had some issues with setting levels, as the Audysseyset levels of the Heights were off by 3 to 5 dB, (too low). Once I got that figured out, the RSL are good, but they're not what I would call "great."
> 
> I just wish that Triad would make a real, dedicated Atmos ceiling speaker that has a great timbre-match to the Plat's and can be aimed precisely at the LP. If the Silver Monitors had been that, I would have (begrudgingly) spent the money. Should I reconsider the In-Ceiling Rotating Silver/9 Sats? Do they have the output required to keep up with the Plat's?
> 
> Craig


The In-Ceiling Rotating Silver/9 Sats are slightly less efficient than the RSLs (86dB vs 88dB) -- which is a bunch less than the 94.5 of the Plats and 92.5 for the Silver Monitors. And even using the RSLs, I had to be careful on the target curves I used because if I set the curve toward the bottom of the in-room response, they simply did not have enough output. 

I, like you, do find it odd that Triad can't seem to produce an Atmos speaker that is more appropriate for a high end/high efficiency set of (their own) speakers. But, that said, once a movie starts up (or listening to music), I never think about it.

As for use of wides, I could not agree more. My top middles get more use than my wides. Trinnov will be the first to include DTS:X Pro and I am hopeful that as a result, the DTS upsampler will use every speaker I have installed.


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## highmr

craig john said:


> I do have the RSL C34E's for my height channels. I use the system for both movies and music. I don't use DSU much as I seem to prefer the DTS upmixer. However, neither of them makes use of the Wides I have in my system, so I'm not overly happy with either of them. Atmos uses the Wides when the content is Atmos, but if it's upmixed from any lesser codec, it doesn't. DTS:X doesn't use them at all, even with their Neural:X upmixer.!  The older DTS:NeoX but that's no longer available since the introduction of Neural:X.
> 
> 
> I think the RSL's are a decent match with my Triad speakers, but I wish I could have used the Triad In-Ceiling Silver Monitors. They would have been a perfect timbre-match for my other surrounds, as they are the exact same speaker just packaged differently. I do like the angled speaker baffle, the rotation of the faceplate and the aimability of the tweeter.
> 
> 
> 
> What are your thoughts?
> 
> 
> Craig



I have no complaints, and I can't notice a lack of timbre matching with the front Revels (two of which are in wall). (I have Audyssey XT32.)
As a caveat, I haven't been able to really exercise the system much due to a young child in the house. 
I liked the angled woofer and adjustable tweeter conceptually - I think that this has a better chance then a good, wide dispersion speaker given variations in non-ideal placement and room size and shape. For anyone else reading this, I wouldn't count on their quoted 70 Hz frequency extension, though. The frequency extension depends on the size of the space behind the speaker, plus they are only two 4" woofers.
I like Dolby Surround with the ability to change the center spread option as an approximation of the old movie and music modes with previous Dolby. I haven't spent enough time with DTS Neural:X to comment much there.


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## audioguy

I cross my RSLs north of 100Hz (as I do my in room Silvers). No sense in blowing up perfectly good speakers should I push on the volume knob a tad aggressively!


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## craig john

audioguy said:


> I cross my RSLs north of 100Hz (as I do my in room Silvers). No sense in blowing up perfectly good speakers should I push on the volume knob a tad aggressively!


I cross mine at 150 Hz.


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## SouthernCA

craig john said:


> I have recently upgraded my speaker system with a full set of Triad speakers. The fronts are Platinum LCR's with a Platinum CC:
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> The stands were custom built by a good friend and forum member, DMark1. I helped, but my woodworking skills pale to insignificance compared to Dennis'. Dennis has a side business building drum kits. He has honed his wood working skills by making some beautiful drums kits. http://www.markleycustomdrums.com/ He's also a professional drummer and percussionist, so he has a great ear for music and has helped me significantly in fine tuning my system.
> 
> The stands are 1.5" thick plinths with columns supporting the speakers. The columns are 1 layer of 3/4", 9-ply plywood with an inner layer of 3/4" MDF. The two layers are adhered with Green Glue and the CC column is additionally lined with No-Rez. All this was done to reduce resonance in the columns. (Doing the knuckle rap test shows that the efforts were successful. The columns are very dead.) They were painted with the original factory paint used on my speakers. We bought the paint directly from Triad and got the application instructions directly from the lead "paint guy" at Triad. Dennis has a spray booth in his drum shop, and he applied the paint there. The final coat is a textured "spatter" coat that required some specific painting skills. Fortunately, Dennis has them. Here is a pic of the CC stand:
> 
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> As you can see, the paint is a perfect match. What's even more amazing is how good the texture match turned out.
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> Needless to say, I am extremely happy with how they compliment the speakers!
> 
> I've also added Triad surrounds. I used the Silver Monitors because they use the same mid-woofers as the LCR's and a tweeter that is almost exactly the same as the Platinum's but without the dispersion lens. I use 4 Silver Monitors placed as Wides and Sides. The Wides are supposed to be at 60 degrees to the listening position, but as you will see in the pic below, I couldn't quite get them that wide. Due to wall constraints, they ended up at about 50 degrees. They still work quite well there. Here is a pic of the right Wide:
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> I have 3 Submersive HP's for subwoofer duties. They are placed somewhat randomly around the room and EQ'd with Audyssey XT32. Here is a pic of the right, front Submersive HP:
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> In the first pic of the theater above, there is another Submersive on the left side of the CC. That sub has since been moved to a point on the left wall beneath the left Wide. The 3rd Submersive is on the right side wall behind the LP at about 3/5 of the long dimension of the room. After gain-matching the 3 subs, EQ'ing them with Audyssey XT32, optimizing their Distance setting, and invoking the 2nd DSP program on the Submersives, I get the following frequency response and max output/compression:
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> That is just the subs, (no speakers, with an 80 Hz crossover.) That is 115 dB at 10 Hz with no compression.
> 
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> and here is a 1/3 Octave RTA of the full bandwidth of the system:
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> The rest of my audio equipment consists of:
> 
> Marantz AV 8801
> Earthquake Cinemova Grande BR7 (7 x 650 wpc)
> Clone Amp (2 x 2,400 wpc)
> Tivo HD DVR
> Oppo BDP 105D
> Crowson Technology TES 100 Shadow 8 Dual Motion Actuator System
> Buttkicker BKA 1000 Amplifier
> 
> Here is a pic of the equipment rack:
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> The video system consists of:
> 
> JVC RS-55
> SeymourAV 120" Diagonal 2.35, motorized, drop down Acoustically Transparent screen
> Panamorph UH 480 Anamorphic Lens
> JVC 3D Glasses
> 
> Here is a pic of the screen deployed:
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> The room is acoustically treated with 8" thick acoustic cotton and fiberglass bass traps in the front corners, (they're behind the burgundy drapes.) The front wall is treated with 2" of acoustical cotton, as are the first 4' of the side walls. The ceiling is a dropped acoustical ceiling using CaPaul Open Plan 1" thick tiles with a black nubby finish. Above the dropped ceiling, the overhead joist spaces are stuffed with fiberglass insulation, making the entire ceiling a large bass trap/broadband absorber. The floor is concrete with dark brown carpet over the thickest pad. With all the dark surfaces, and all the acoustic absorption in the front of the room, when the lights go out and the movie starts to play, the front of the room is one big black hole for light and sound.
> 
> There are other acoustical treatments placed around the room to reduce slap echo. Here is a pic of one of them:
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> The seating is a 4-chair row of Acoustic Innovations Traditional seats configured as in this pic:
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> The seats are a Burgundy leather. They sit on an 8" riser. This gets my eyes to 1/3 screen height, my ears to tweeter height, and allow the transducer system to shake the entire riser.
> 
> I have been an HT enthusiast for about 25 years. I built my first "HT" in 1987, (before the term "Home Theater" was even in use), using a 50" Pioneer RPTV. At the time a 50" TV was unheard of, and my "HT" had a huge "WOW Factor." Soon after, I acquired a LaserDisc player... and the rest is history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have been through quite few different systems in the ensuing years. However, the above system is far and away the best I've ever had in my HT. I have a few things to do yet, but I am close to the point that my "upgradeitits" is almost cured.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Yeah right, she said!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the meantime, I am thoroughly enjoying my system!
> 
> Thanks for reading.
> 
> Craig


I want to hear a good system in a good room. Just to see what is possible. Anyone has an idea where I can do that? The dealers here don't have a well treated room with properly set up speakers ..


----------



## craig john

SouthernCA said:


> I want to hear a good system in a good room. Just to see what is possible. Anyone has an idea where I can do that? The dealers here don't have a well treated room with properly set up speakers ..



I don't know where you live in "SouthernCA" bu I suggest you contact @sdurani (Sanjay Durani.) He is from Monterey Park, CA and is part of an HT group in Southern CA. I'm sure he can hook you up with some people who have excellent HT's. 



Or, you're welcome to fly, (or drive), to PA and check out my system.  



Craig


----------



## audioguy

SouthernCA said:


> I want to hear a good system in a good room. Just to see what is possible. Anyone has an idea where I can do that? The dealers here don't have a well treated room with properly set up speakers ..


What Craig said - and if you are really feeling it, and you can get to Georgia, you would be welcome here as well.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> What Craig said - and if you are really feeling it, and you can get to Georgia, you would be welcome here as well.


If you're up for travel, Chuck's place is the FIRST place you should visit.


----------



## SouthernCA

Thank you for your generous offers. I am in San Diego.


----------



## audioguy

SouthernCA said:


> Thank you for your generous offers. I am in San Diego.


Either offered choice would be a very long trip. Surely, in "The Land of Plenty", there must be a bunch of places you could go hear a well done home theate.r


----------



## craig john

SouthernCA said:


> Thank you for your generous offers. I am in San Diego.


 https://www.avsforum.com/forum/61-area-home-theater-meets/1526437-san-diego-meet.html#post24583547


Contact some of those guys. Or, cruise up to LA.


Craig


----------



## Phamgia

Hello Craig, you did a review on Earthquake Mkv-15 long time ago. Do you still have it? I've recently purchased two brand new Earthquake Mkv-12 for $575 each. I am just wondering if it was a good purchase or should I return them for a more popular subwoofers like SVS, HSU, or Monolith since I am still within the return window. Thank you.


----------



## Phamgia

Thank you for your contributions in helping me and others in this forum.


----------



## audioguy

Phamgia said:


> Thank you for your contributions in helping me and others in this forum.


He's been very helpful to me - spending my money !! But I would agree, he has been very generous with his posts on the forum and freely offering his experience and advice.


----------



## craig john

Phamgia said:


> Hello Craig, you did a review on Earthquake Mkv-15 long time ago. Do you still have it? I've recently purchased two brand new Earthquake Mkv-12 for $575 each. I am just wondering if it was a good purchase or should I return them for a more popular subwoofers like SVS, HSU, or Monolith since I am still within the return window. Thank you.


 PM sent.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> He's been very helpful to me - spending my money !! But I would agree, he has been very generous with his posts on the forum and freely offering his experience and advice.



Back to that, are we????


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Back to that, are we????


Many times when I am in our theater and get to listen to those amazing speakers, I think about my trip to your home. So, yes, it was you who helped me spend my money - and worth every penny of it. I have said many times, as has the dealer I used, Triad speakers are one of the most un-recognized and under appreciated brands in audio.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Many times when I am in our theater and get to listen to those amazing speakers, I think about my trip to your home. So, yes, it was you who helped me spend my money - and worth every penny of it. I have said many times, as has the dealer I used, Triad speakers are one of the most un-recognized and under appreciated brands in audio.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Hey man, I saw the RS55 for sale w/ pics of it dismounted....please spill the beans. What did you/will you upgrade to? JVC RS/NX-something, I presume?


----------



## craig john

BrolicBeast said:


> Hey man, I saw the RS55 for sale w/ pics of it dismounted....please spill the beans. What did you/will you upgrade to? JVC RS/NX-something, I presume?


Yes, an NX7. What a stunning projector. It's like having a 120" OLED! If my wife notices the difference, its a BIG difference. And she definitely noticed. She was talking about going to NYC for the US Open Tennis. After watching a couple of early round matches on the new pj, she said she wanted to stay home. We've been watching 4K movies too. The resolution and the color saturations are incredible. It's as big a leap as going from my old rear-projection 50" Pioneer TV to my first projector, a Sony VPL HS-20, 720p "HiDef" projector back in 2003. 

BTW, a while back we talked about PLEX and sharing some files. Is that still a possibility? I now have a Roku Ultra with PLEX installed, but I haven't used it. Should I? Do I need a PC for file storage?

Craig


----------



## BrolicBeast

craig john said:


> Yes, an NX7. What a stunning projector. It's like having a 120" OLED! If my wife notices the difference, its a BIG difference. And she definitely noticed. She was talking about going to NYC for the US Open Tennis. After watching a couple of early round matches on the new pj, she said she wanted to stay home. We've been watching 4K movies too. The resolution and the color saturations are incredible. It's as big a leap as going from my old rear-projection 50" Pioneer TV to my first projector, a Sony VPL HS-20, 720p "HiDef" projector back in 2003.
> 
> BTW, a while back we talked about PLEX and sharing some files. Is that still a possibility? I now have a Roku Ultra with PLEX installed, but I haven't used it. Should I? Do I need a PC for file storage?
> 
> Craig




Great choice, Craig! Yeah, when the Mrs. recognizes any difference, it’s a monumental achievement! Are you looking at a Lumagen or MadVR Envy to take your 4k HDR to the next level? If not, you will soon! 

Sure—I have a library of at least 50 or 60 demo scenes I’ve created (twelve of which you experienced at last year’s G2G) that are great for gauging audio and 4k/HDR performance. Once you sign up, email/PM/text me the email address you use to sign up and I’ll give you access to that library. I’d definitely recommend a NAS instead of a PC (I know the old Baetis used onboard storage but these days, the standalone NAS is the best way to take advantage of digital files if you plan to import your 4k discs). I’ve tried a 2013-era Synology and a Western Digital “user friendly” media NAS—neither were powerful enough for 4k. The only one that works well for full uncompressed 4k HDR and Atmos/DTS-x is the Western Digital PR4100. I know there are some newer Synologies (Audioguy has one) that also work. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

Congrats on the new projector. That is quite a jump form the RS55 to the RS2000/NX7. And I do understand how our brides are usually not impressed with out HT upgrades, but mine was impressed with my original 4K Sony projector and my current one as well. In fact, even after having it for just over a year, she still comments on it. Try watching some of your 1080P concert videos. They will look spectacular as well.



As Brolic said, I am using a Synology NAS. I use it for storing my ripped movies, as a backup for my ripped music files and as a backup for our photo library. And other miscellaneous files as well. *HERE* is the model I have. And these are the drives I purchased: *WD Red 4TB NAS Hard Disk Drive - 5400 RPM Class SATA 6 Gb/s 64MB Cache 3.5 Inch - WD40EFRX*

After setting up the system for RAID backup, I ended up with about 22TB of usable space.


----------



## craig john

BrolicBeast said:


> Great choice, Craig! Yeah, when the Mrs. recognizes any difference, it’s a monumental achievement! Are you looking at a Lumagen or MadVR Envy to take your 4k HDR to the next level? If not, you will soon!


Hi Matt. JVC is releasing a firmware update that adds "Frame Adaptive HDR" similar to what the Lumagen and MadVR are doing. That may be all I need to "take it to the next level." The update should be available later this month, so I'm gonna wait and see what it does before I spend any additional $$$. 




BrolicBeast said:


> Sure—I have a library of at least 50 or 60 demo scenes I’ve created (twelve of which you experienced at last year’s G2G) that are great for gauging audio and 4k/HDR performance. Once you sign up, email/PM/text me the email address you use to sign up and I’ll give you access to that library. I’d definitely recommend a NAS instead of a PC (I know the old Baetis used onboard storage but these days, the standalone NAS is the best way to take advantage of digital files if you plan to import your 4k discs). I’ve tried a 2013-era Synology and a Western Digital “user friendly” media NAS—neither were powerful enough for 4k. The only one that works well for full uncompressed 4k HDR and Atmos/DTS-x is the Western Digital PR4100. I know there are some newer Synologies (Audioguy has one) that also work.


I'll try to sign up for PLEX this weekend. I'm busy every night this week so it ill have to wait until the weekend. Thanks!!


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Congrats on the new projector. That is quite a jump form the RS55 to the RS2000/NX7. And I do understand how our brides are usually not impressed with out HT upgrades, but mine was impressed with my original 4K Sony projector and my current one as well. In fact, even after having it for just over a year, she still comments on it. Try watching some of your 1080P concert videos. They will look spectacular as well.
> 
> 
> 
> As Brolic said, I am using a Synology NAS. I use it for storing my ripped movies, as a backup for my ripped music files and as a backup for our photo library. And other miscellaneous files as well. *HERE* is the model I have. And these are the drives I purchased: *WD Red 4TB NAS Hard Disk Drive - 5400 RPM Class SATA 6 Gb/s 64MB Cache 3.5 Inch - WD40EFRX*
> 
> After setting up the system for RAID backup, I ended up with about 22TB of usable space.



Thanks Chuck! I'll look into this. Much appreciated!


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Thanks Chuck! I'll look into this. Much appreciated!



The Synology has a Plex server app that can be downloaded to it which talks to the Plex Client located in my Nvidia Shield. The ONLY down side of the Nvidia/Plex combo is that it automatically up-converts everything to 4K but I want my Lumagen to do that. Not a HUGE deal, and if I am feeling particularly anal, I can either use Kodi on the Shield or play it through my Oppo 203.


----------



## craig john

I have posted some updated pics of the 4K and Atmos updates in the first post of my thread. Thanks for looking. 


Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> The 3D Audio upgrade is a highly worthwhile upgrade as well. My system prior to the upgrade was quite immersive, especially with the Wides activated using DTS Neo X. The Wides filled the gap between the front mains and the side surrounds. The whole soundstage was very cohesive and solid, with no gaps The upgraded system is fully integrated, and immersive but in a different way. It was all on the horizontal plane. With the addition of 3D audio, the immersiveness now extends to the overhead plane as well. Unfortunately, I can't use my Wides much any more. The new Marantz 8805 pre/pro doesn't have DTS Neo X, or Audyssey DSX or Dolby Prologic IIx either. Atmos only uses the Wides when the content is native Atmos. The DSU upmixer doesn't use them at all. DTS:X only uses them with native DTS:X content, (and there is very little of that available.) The DTS Nueral:X upmixer only uses the Wides when I turn off the rear surrounds off. While that is a compromise I'm willing to make to get a solid, cohesive and fully integrated front soundstage, I wish I didn't have to make that compromise.
> 
> To be brutally honest, and knowing what I know now, I think I would have done just the 4K projector upgrade at this time, and foregone the 3D audio upgrade. Don't get me wrong, when the content is native Atmos or DTS:X, the system is demonstrably better than prior to the upgrade. However, for all content that uses the upmixers, (probably 80% of what we watch), I've merely traded on kind of immersiveness for another, with the new kind not be appreciably "better" than the old kind. I am hoping that more content becomes available in native 3D audio formats, and as that happens, I believe I will be more content with the audio upgrade.
> 
> Craig


Craig: I am somewhat surprised that you're are less than "wildly enthusiastic" about 3D audio. That upgrade, for me (even my wife), was probably the single biggest improvement in the audio part of movie watching since digital room correction. - and like you, I moved form 7.x to 7.x.4 -- but on an earlier version of a Marantz (7702).

I don't know if your Marantz will ever offer DTS:X Pro and its up-mixer (Neural:X) but it will use every speaker in your room, wides included. In my room, the addition of wides, even when in actual use by the mix, does very little to improve the immersiveness. I have an Atmos music album (_R.E.M._ - Automatic For The People (25th Anniversary Deluxe Edition) that makes very specific use of wides (and every other speaker in my room) but the difference between what I hear with and without wides enabled is very slight, even with those very specific "wide" signals. My L&R are at about 30 degrees, wides at 60 degrees and surrounds are at 90 degree so I have always gotten very great imaging where my wides are located. In my case, center heights probably added more immersion than did wides.

A little "enhancement" I use when calibrating a 7 (or 9).x.4: I set my surrounds at +1, rear surrounds at +2, my front heights at +1 and rear heights at +2.

After your retirement party, come visit and you can hear what I am talking about!!


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Craig: I am somewhat surprised that you're are less than "wildly enthusiastic" about 3D audio. That upgrade, for me (even my wife), was probably the single biggest improvement in the audio part of movie watching since digital room correction. - and like you, I moved form 7.x to 7.x.4 -- but on an earlier version of a Marantz (7702).
> 
> I don't know if your Marantz will ever offer DTS:X Pro and its up-mixer (Neural:X) but it will use every speaker in your room, wides included. In my room, the addition of wides, even when in actual use by the mix, does very little to improve the immersiveness. I have an Atmos music album (_R.E.M._ - Automatic For The People (25th Anniversary Deluxe Edition) that makes very specific use of wides (and every other speaker in my room) but the difference between what I hear with and without wides enabled is very slight, even with those very specific "wide" signals. My L&R are at about 30 degrees, wides at 60 degrees and surrounds are at 90 degree so I have always gotten very great imaging where my wides are located. In my case, center heights probably added more immersion than did wides.
> 
> A little "enhancement" I use when calibrating a 7 (or 9).x.4: I set my surrounds at +1, rear surrounds at +2, my front heights at +1 and rear heights at +2.
> 
> After your retirement party, come visit and you can hear what I am talking about!!


Hi Chuck,

I'm not sure why we have such divergent impressions on this, but I was always enthralled with the immersiveness provided by DTS Neo X, which added in the Wides in a way that was immersive without being directional and without changing the front soundstage in any way. It merely enhanced the envelopment, ambiance and immersiveness. I get something similar now with DTS Neural X and the Heights added. It's a "different" kind of envelopment coming from above rather than between, but it is equally enveloping. Nonetheless, "equal but different" is not necessarily "better." And for what I spent, I expected it to be better. 

BTW, the 8805 won't let Atmos DSU or DTS Neural X use Wides if all the other surrounds are also used. To use Wides with either upmixer, one other set of surrounds needs to be disabled. I've chosen to disable the rear surrounds making my system a 5.1.4 system + Wides for everything other than native Atmos and DTS:X. I am assuming the upmixers will mix the rear surround content into the rear Height channels, and sonically, it does seem that way, but I would still prefer to have the content actually originate from where its supposed to originate rather than somewhere else. Since a lot of what we watch is still DD or 2 channel, this is a glaring inadequacy.

And I will say that, on native Atmos and DTS:X content it IS better... significantly better. I'm definitely hoping that more and more content comes out in 3D audio, but for now its just not as much of an improvement as I was hoping for, and a *slight* step backwards vs-a-vis the Wides. I'm just not feeling like the upmixing is better, and the elimination of the older upmixers is a step backwards, IMO and IME. If I could have DTS Neo X back, and it could integrate the Heights in a 9.1.4 system, I would be happy as a pig in... 

You can bet I'll be visiting after I retire!!! I wanna hear all the upgrades since my last visit and I want to compare the RS4500 to my RS2000. Can't wait. 

Craig

PS. I noticed that you raised the levels of all the surrounds channels EXCEPT the Wides. Do you think that may have something to do with why you don't feel the Wides add as much as the other speakers?


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> If I could have DTS Neo X back, and it could integrate the Heights in a 9.1.4 system, I would be happy as a pig in...


DTS:X Pro does exactly that! (plus every other speaker you may happen to have - like middle heights)



> You can bet I'll be visiting after I retire!!! I wanna hear all the upgrades since my last visit and I want to compare the RS4500 to my RS2000. Can't wait.


 I have seen a friend's RS2000 with the DTM firmware upgrade. Stunning! Without seeing his 2000 and my 4500 side by side, hard to tell much difference. 

PS. I noticed that you raised the levels of all the surrounds channels EXCEPT the Wides. Do you think that may have something to do with why you don't feel the Wides add as much as the other speakers?[/QUOTE]

I chose to only raise the levels of those speakers that are not in front of me (or are above me), so wides don't qualify! You will have to experience my "virtual wides" when you visit and see (hear) what I am talking about.


----------



## tigerhonaker

craig john said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> *You can bet I'll be visiting after I retire!!!*
> 
> I wanna hear all the upgrades since my last visit and I want to compare the RS4500 to my RS2000.
> Can't wait.
> 
> Craig


Hey Craig,

I got to totally retire back in 2008 thanks to my wife (Cathy).
We have been Married plus 35-years now. 

She works for Cigna Insurance at home.
We converted one of the bedrooms to an office for her.
She said to me, honey why don't you just retire after I was laid-off when the economy went really baddddddddd in 2008.
She said she was sometimes getting a little lonely being always by herself. 

I checked at the Social Security local office and sure enough there was no point in me finding further employment as it wouldn't really effect my Social Security benefits much.

*So,* I just wanted to say to you ...........
Man if you can retire, do so, and don't ever look back buddy.

Good-Luck,
Terry


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Great wife! I can't wait to retire.


----------



## craig john

tigerhonaker said:


> Hey Craig,
> 
> I got to totally retire back in 2008 thanks to my wife (Cathy).
> We have been Married plus 35-years now.
> 
> She works for Cigna Insurance at home.
> We converted one of the bedrooms to an office for her.
> She said to me, honey why don't you just retire after I was laid-off when the economy went really baddddddddd in 2008.
> She said she was sometimes getting a little lonely being always by herself.
> 
> I checked at the Social Security local office and sure enough there was no point in me finding further employment as it wouldn't really effect my Social Security benefits much.
> 
> *So,* I just wanted to say to you ...........
> Man if you can retire, do so, and don't ever look back buddy.
> 
> Good-Luck,
> Terry


Hi Terry,

Thanks for the encouragement about retirement. I have worked for 43 years in the medical field, running the heart-lung machine in open heart surgery, running artificial hearts, artificial lungs, and various and sundry other heart and lung support devices. Over the last 5 or 6 years, my profession has gotten significantly more taxing with the widespread use of ECMO, (Extra-Corporeal Membrane Oxygenation), which is a last ditch effort to save lives by putting dying patients on emergency heart/lung machines, then maintaining them for days, weeks, even months, until they recover from heart attacks, congestive heart failure and even the flu. These patients require intensive, round the clock care, which my group and I provide. We also take call and get called in emergently to place patients on the devices. And now, with the onset of the coronavirus, the number of patients with lung problems has the potential to skyrocket! At 66 years old, I'm finding that I'm just not up to the task anymore. I think the hardest part is getting to know the patient's families while they struggle watching their loved one get through their illness, and especially the ones who don't get through their illness. I just don't don't have the where-with-all to deal with it anymore. It's time for younger souls to take over. 

I'm anxiously looking forward to June 30th. My wife is very supportive of this as she has spent a lot of her life taking care of the kids, raising them and being the primary parent, while I was at work. They're all grown and have families of their own now, giving us 5 wonderful grandchildren! We pretty sound financially, so the reduced income shouldn't hold us back from doing what we want to do. We plan to travel after retirement and we already have two big trips planned, as well as a vist to Audioguy's place. One trip will be to Germany to drive the Autobahn, go to Munich and tour the BMW factory. I may just take European delivery of a new BMW while I'm there! 

One of my other loves is fast cars, as is yours. He's my current garage queen:








Over the years, I've had 2 other M3's, an E36 and an E46. 

A couple years ago, we took a trip to Italy with 3 other couples. We went to Modena and toured the Ferrari factory. While there, we rented these:









Here's me driving the Ferrari California:









Ripping around the rolling hills of Tuscany was Best Vacation EVER!!! 

Craig


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> DTS:X Pro does exactly that! (plus every other speaker you may happen to have - like middle heights)
> 
> I have seen a friend's RS2000 with the DTM firmware upgrade. Stunning! Without seeing his 2000 and my 4500 side by side, hard to tell much difference.
> 
> PS. I noticed that you raised the levels of all the surrounds channels EXCEPT the Wides. Do you think that may have something to do with why you don't feel the Wides add as much as the other speakers?
> 
> I chose to only raise the levels of those speakers that are not in front of me (or are above me), so wides don't qualify! You will have to experience my "virtual wides" when you visit and see (hear) what I am talking about.


I don't think my 8805 is updateable to DTS:X Pro, but we'll see. 

I am so ecstatic with my RS2000, don't see myself upgrading my video for quite a while... but NEVER SAY NEVER.... Right???


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> I don't think my 8805 is updateable to DTS:X Pro, but we'll see.
> 
> I am so ecstatic with my RS2000, don't see myself upgrading my video for quite a while... but NEVER SAY NEVER.... Right???


The guy that did my video calibration (Craig Rounds) thought the RS2000 + Panamorph Anamorphic Lens + Lumagen (Needed less now) was the steal of the video chain options. And having seen the RS200 (without the lens but the guy will soon own the new Panamorph), it is a heck of projector that cost less than a nice car!!


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Hi Terry,
> 
> Thanks for the encouragement about retirement. I have worked for 43 years in the medical field, running the heart-lung machine in open heart surgery, running artificial hearts, artificial lungs, and various and sundry other heart and lung support devices. Over the last 5 or 6 years, my profession has gotten significantly more taxing with the widespread use of ECMO, (Extra-Corporeal Membrane Oxygenation), which is a last ditch effort to save lives by putting dying patients on emergency heart/lung machines, then maintaining them for days, weeks, even months, until they recover from heart attacks, congestive heart failure and even the flu. These patients require intensive, round the clock care, which my group and I provide. We also take call and get called in emergently to place patients on the devices. And now, with the onset of the coronavirus, the number of patients with lung problems has the potential to skyrocket! At 66 years old, I'm finding that I'm just not up to the task anymore. I think the hardest part is getting to know the patient's families while they struggle watching their loved one get through their illness, and especially the ones who don't get through their illness. I just don't don't have the where-with-all to deal with it anymore. It's time for younger souls to take over.
> 
> Craig



I got stressed out an exhausted just reading this. Your retirement can't come too soon!!


----------



## tigerhonaker

craig john said:


> Hi Terry,
> 
> Thanks for the encouragement about retirement. I have worked for 43 years in the medical field, running the heart-lung machine in open heart surgery, running artificial hearts, artificial lungs, and various and sundry other heart and lung support devices. Over the last 5 or 6 years, my profession has gotten significantly more taxing with the widespread use of ECMO, (Extra-Corporeal Membrane Oxygenation), which is a last ditch effort to save lives by putting dying patients on emergency heart/lung machines, then maintaining them for days, weeks, even months, until they recover from heart attacks, congestive heart failure and even the flu. These patients require intensive, round the clock care, which my group and I provide. We also take call and get called in emergently to place patients on the devices. And now, with the onset of the coronavirus, the number of patients with lung problems has the potential to skyrocket! At 66 years old, I'm finding that I'm just not up to the task anymore. I think the hardest part is getting to know the patient's families while they struggle watching their loved one get through their illness, and especially the ones who don't get through their illness. I just don't don't have the where-with-all to deal with it anymore. It's time for younger souls to take over.
> 
> *I'm anxiously looking forward to June 30th. * My wife is very supportive of this as she has spent a lot of her life taking care of the kids, raising them and being the primary parent, while I was at work. They're all grown and have families of their own now, giving us 5 wonderful grandchildren! We pretty sound financially, so the reduced income shouldn't hold us back from doing what we want to do. We plan to travel after retirement and we already have two big trips planned, as well as a vist to Audioguy's place. One trip will be to Germany to drive the Autobahn, go to Munich and tour the BMW factory. I may just take European delivery of a new BMW while I'm there!
> 
> One of my other loves is fast cars, as is yours. He's my current garage queen:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over the years, I've had 2 other M3's, an E36 and an E46.
> 
> A couple years ago, we took a trip to Italy with 3 other couples. We went to Modena and toured the Ferrari factory. While there, we rented these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's me driving the Ferrari California:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ripping around the rolling hills of Tuscany was Best Vacation EVER!!!
> 
> Craig


Craig,

Since this is your dedicated thread I don't think you will mind me going on for awhile.   

Speaking of Fast-Cars, M-3's a bunch of those, M-5's several, Audi's several different models including my favorite S-4's several of them, RS-3 now, AMG Mercedes's a bunch of those, Volvo S-60R, Porsche 911 Turbo.
Domestics like, SS Impalas several, SLP SS Camaro, Corvette's ZR-1 (Mercury Marine- Lotus Powered), bunches of all year Corvette's, Ford bunches of all years of Mustangs all modified with Superchargers, Factory S/C pick-up trucks several, many-many more over the years, Challenger Hellcat, 2008 40th Anniversary Bullitt Mustang (Highly Modified to 1,000 H/P) and the list would just keep going buddy.
Craig, I came really-really close to purchasing a 328 GTS in BRIGHT RED of course when I was in sales.
But ...........
I had another brand new BMW M-5 with BBS 3-Piece Modular Wheels and No-Miles on it to talk trade.
The salesman was a Bonafide JERK, Pompous Ass when I asked him to UN-Lock it so I could see if I fit in it ???
He said we don't UN-Lock the Ferrari's unless we have a Signed-Buyer's-Order !!!
The wife and I turned around and left ........
I had the ONLY 1-of-1 in the World 5-Speed Automatic 2008 Bullitt Mustang !!! 




















Speaking of the Heart thing.
I had a heart-attack in the house as I stepped off the Elliptical-Trainer in our Master Bedroom.
Because of that when they ran the blood-work I had Quad-By-Pass Open-Heart-Surgery.
(I met in person the guy that would be holding in his hand's my heart)



So brother Craig you have had a very-very interesting life so far.
My opinion is it's only going to get a heck of a lot better once you do the *RETIREMENT* !!!

My wife (Cathy) is 9-years younger than me.
So with her working from home for Cigna Ins. which she has done for years.
Her thinking is she is going to keep doing so that she Maxes out All her Retirement benefits and SS benefits.
In doing the above our yearly income (Together) will stay exactly where it is or greater than. 

Just so you know I never thought you were being a Wise-Ass or Know-it-All over on my thread buddy.
I did carefully read everything you said.
I then reached out as you read to my guy and he followed-up from his end with Triad.
I'm probably doing a poor job of saying what's in my mind here. 
Your comments/suggestions as well as (Audioguy) Chuck's were never taken lightly by me at all.
I simply like what I like and in my case as Very-Very-Strange as it might seem to other's money is NOT the deciding factor at all.
I only do two (2) things, Fast-Vehicles & Home Theater ............
And being 74 right now and when you my AVS Internet-Buddy Retire this coming June I'll already have turned 75-years young. 
And we have No-Children so there is no reason for me or us not to do what we want to do as far as what it cost money-wise, within-reason that is.

Lastly,
Nice meeting you on this internet site as well as some other members.

Terry Honaker


----------



## BP1Fanatic

I can't believe you bought an atx Bullitt. Steve McQueen is rolling in his grave. Love the blower tho'! I bet 1,001 hp is very fun to drive!


----------



## craig john

Best line from the video:

_"This particular customer's tastes have changed quite a bit..." 
_


> Speaking of the Heart thing. I had a heart-attack in the house as I stepped off the Elliptical-Trainer in our Master Bedroom.
> Because of that when they ran the blood-work I had Quad-By-Pass Open-Heart-Surgery. (I met in person the guy that would be holding in his hand's my heart)


You may have met the surgeon who "held your heart in his hands," but you may not have met the perfusionist who kept you alive while the surgeon was holding your heart. I'm THAT guy.  I literally just left the OR after completing a 4-vessel bypass operation. 

Glad to hear you've had a good result. 

Craig


----------



## tigerhonaker

craig john said:


> Best line from the video:
> 
> _"This particular customer's tastes have changed quite a bit..."
> _
> You may have met the surgeon who "held your heart in his hands," but you may not have met the perfusionist who kept you alive while the surgeon was holding your heart. I'm THAT guy.  I literally just left the OR after completing a 4-vessel bypass operation.
> 
> Glad to hear you've had a good result.
> 
> Craig


Well buddy I have not really a clue but who ever that was talking to me right before they knocked me out said," I'll actually be holding your heart Terry".
I said with a bigggggg smile please be careful and don't slip on the floor or anything and drop my Little-Heart buddy. LOL !!!
All went A-OK with the surgery and as time/years now like maybe 4 I think.
My Cardiologist told me I have a heart like a mid 50 year old guy now.
He is Super-Pleased with the way everything went and the way I have continued to be.

Terry


----------



## craig john

tigerhonaker said:


> Well buddy I have not really a clue but who ever that was talking to me right before they knocked me out said," I'll actually be holding your heart Terry".
> I said with a bigggggg smile please be careful and don't slip on the floor or anything and drop my Little-Heart buddy. LOL !!!
> All went A-OK with the surgery and as time/years now like maybe 4 I think.
> My Cardiologist told me I have a heart like a mid 50 year old guy now.
> He is Super-Pleased with the way everything went and the way I have continued to be.
> 
> Terry


I hope you've made the appropriate lifestyle changes to reduce your risk of further advancement of your coronary artery disease. You know, like... stop smoking, lower your blood pressure, reduce stress, control your diet... etc.  

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> I hope you've made the appropriate lifestyle changes to reduce your risk of further advancement of your coronary artery disease. You know, like... stop smoking, lower your blood pressure, reduce stress, control your diet... etc.
> 
> Craig


It most certainly is a progressive disease. I participated in the Dean Ornish Heart Disease Reversal Program (YES, it is reversible and there are scientific studies to prove it). My cholesterol dropped 40%; BP went to normal; Inflammatory markers went to non-readable. Until I started this program, I was on a very, very steep road to dead-ness. The Plan consists of four elements: Diet (plant based AND low fat); Exercise (been doing that since 1968); Stress Reduction (primarily meditation); and keep connected to your friends and community. 

The diet portion really sucks but not nearly as bad as early deadness. Fortunately, I never needed bypass surgery - but Marvel had considered making a new movie series to go along with some others like Ant Man or Spider Man or Iron Man. I would be staring in a new series called "Stent Man". I didn't like the script, so the movie won't happen !!


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> It most certainly is a progressive disease. I participated in the Dean Ornish Heart Disease Reversal Program (YES, it is reversible and there are scientific studies to prove it). My cholesterol dropped 40%; BP went to normal; Inflammatory markers went to non-readable. Until I started this program, I was on a very, very steep road to dead-ness. The Plan consists of four elements: Diet (plant based AND low fat); Exercise (been doing that since 1968); Stress Reduction (primarily meditation); and keep connected to your friends and community.
> 
> The diet portion really sucks but not nearly as bad as early deadness. Fortunately, I never needed bypass surgery - but Marvel had considered making a new movie series to go along with some others like Ant Man or Spider Man or Iron Man. I would be staring in a new series called "Stent Man". I didn't like the script, so the movie won't happen !!


Well, I, for one am very happy you're still with us. I'm sure that are lots of other people in your life who feel the same way! Keep up the good work! 

Craig

PS. Don't let my description of my job cause you any undo stress. The good news is: today we interviewed a guy who may take my place!


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Well, I, for one am very happy you're still with us. I'm sure that are lots of other people in your life who feel the same way! Keep up the good work!


Thanks

Craig



> PS. Don't let my description of my job cause you any undo stress.


It didn't cause me any stress but I can sure see how it would be a stressful job 



> The good news is: today we interviewed a guy who may take my place!


Excellent!!


----------



## tigerhonaker

craig john said:


> I hope you've made the appropriate lifestyle changes to reduce your risk of further advancement of your coronary artery disease. You know, like... stop smoking, lower your blood pressure, reduce stress, control your diet... etc.
> 
> Craig


Craig,

Major life-style-changes !!!
I did weigh like 210 Lbs. ... 6' 1" tall and after the heart issue I went by the book and have stayed that way for years now.
Always a Non Smoker, Don't drink and eat right ............
I weigh between 170-175 Lbs.
I walk between 5-7 days 3-miles per day.
And of course do all the other things so I'm A-OK thank-goodness.

Terry


----------



## craig john

tigerhonaker said:


> Craig,
> 
> Major life-style-changes !!!
> I did weigh like 210 Lbs. ... 6' 1" tall and after the heart issue I went by the book and have stayed that way for years now.
> Always a Non Smoker, Don't drink and eat right ............
> I weigh between 170-175 Lbs.
> I walk between 5-7 days 3-miles per day.
> And of course do all the other things so I'm A-OK thank-goodness.
> 
> Terry


Excellent! Good on ya! :smile:


----------



## audioguy

Craig:


Are the backer boxes you made for your RSLs stuffed with any kind of absorptive material?


----------



## craig john

Yes. I stuffed them with polyfill. I made sure the polyfill did not come in contact with the back of the drivers. They were built to the interior volume recommendations of RSL... 1.1 cubic feet. I cross them to the subs at 120 Hz.


----------



## audioguy

Craig: I noted that you were changing screens and that the replacement was a bit smaller. You went from approximately 130" diagonal to 115" diagonal. Curious as to what prompted that choice? Has the new screen arrived and, if so, how do you like it?

Certainly we all have different listening preferences and biases, but I am still curious at your reaction to your 3D audio upgrade. While I did not use wides prior to 3D audio so have no basis for how immersive that might have been, I have said, and still believe, that moving to 3D audio was one of the most significant improvements I have made in my audio change for as long as I have had a theater. And even my wife loved the improvement!! Digital room correction would be right along side of that. And using the "Gerlach Modification" of the AuroMatic Up-Mixer has greatly enhanced my music listening (and I have it set up to use my Wides as a copy of the front L&R). 

When you are finally retired and we are all off of this "Stay at Home Lock down" (whenever that might be) and you are able to come visit, I will be curious if you have the same response, though I suspect you may. It will still be fun to have you visit. 

Take care!


----------



## craig john

Hi Chuck,

I downsized the screen from 120" Diag. 2.35:1 to 115" Diag. 2.35:1, so just a 5" downsize. I downsized *slightly* to make the WAF of the new screen more palatable to my wife, who occasionally complains of motion sickness on fast moving scenes. I also switched to the UF screen material. After much discussion with the boys at SeymourAV, including Chris S., we decided my viewing distance of 9.5' was a little too close for the XD material. Also, I added the side masking to remove the (very dark) gray side borders. 

I do really like 3D audio. I just wish I could use my full speaker count on all content. It is clearly noticeable when the Wides are active on native Atmos content. The immersiveness is on a different level with all 13 speakers engaged. It seems like a huge oversight by Dolby and DTS to not include the Wides into their upmixers. I'll bet I would be a LOT happier if they had done so. At this point, I just feel like I traded some base-level immersiveness for some overhead immersiveness. Seems like a lateral move more than a horizontal one, (reverse pun intended!)

I can't wait to visit you and your lovely wife, and your magnificent theater! I also can't wait until this virus scare goes away. It's a scary thing to go into the hospital right now.  And sad. We have 28 patients in-house right now with 14 on ventilators. We're not overwhelmed... yet. The hospital is gearing up for a surge in 2 - 3 weeks, with a peak in late May/early June... ya know... just before I retire! I've worked in Open Heart Surgery for almost 38 years. I'm ready to be done. I just wish it were on better terms than the current situation! 

Looking forward to seeing you late summer/early fall. 

Craig

PS. We hired my replacement yesterday. He starts June 15th.


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> I downsized the screen from 120" Diag. 2.35:1 to 115" Diag. 2.35:1, so just a 5" downsize. I downsized *slightly* to make the WAF of the new screen more palatable to my wife, who occasionally complains of motion sickness on fast moving scenes. I also switched to the UF screen material. After much discussion with the boys at SeymourAV, including Chris S., we decided my viewing distance of 9.5' was a little too close for the XD material. Also, I added the side masking to remove the (very dark) gray side borders.


Got it. I love my masking system. Is your new screen installed yet?



> I do really like 3D audio. I just wish I could use my full speaker count on all content. It is clearly noticeable when the Wides are active on native Atmos content. The immersiveness is on a different level with all 13 speakers engaged. It seems like a huge oversight by Dolby and DTS to not include the Wides into their upmixers. I'll bet I would be a LOT happier if they had done so. At this point, I just feel like I traded some base-level immersiveness for some overhead immersiveness. Seems like a lateral move more than a horizontal one, (reverse pun intended!)


If Marantz adds DTS:X Pro, you will really be a happy guy. The up-mixer will use every speaker you have. Below is the DTS:X Pro speaker usage and the squares represent the speakers in my room.










And here is how the Trinnov sees my room:

















> I can't wait to visit you and your lovely wife, and your magnificent theater!


Looking forward to it as well 



> also can't wait until this virus scare goes away. It's a scary thing to go into the hospital right now.  And sad. We have 28 patients in-house right now with 14 on ventilators. We're not overwhelmed... yet. The hospital is gearing up for a surge in 2 - 3 weeks, with a peak in late May/early June... ya know... just before I retire! I've worked in Open Heart Surgery for almost 38 years. I'm ready to be done. I just wish it were on better terms than the current situation!


It is a scary thing. And I have 3 bad things: age, heart disease, partially compromised kidney function. So needless to say, I am trying to be super careful. I can't imagine what it must be like for you going to work everyday.

Craig



> PS. We hired my replacement yesterday. He starts June 15th.


As my wife and I would say: "Sounds like a 'God Thing' "


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Got it. I love my masking system. Is your new screen installed yet?


New screen arrived yesterday. The things weighs 130# and I can't have anyone over to help with install, (Social Distancing and all that), so it's gotta wait.



audioguy said:


> If Marantz adds DTS:X Pro, you will really be a happy guy. The up-mixer will use every speaker you have. Below is the DTS:X Pro speaker usage and the squares represent the speakers in my room.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is how the Trinnov sees my room:


I just have to ask Chuck... I know it's 20 discrete speakers... and I don't doubt it's more immersive... but is it really *that* much more immersive than 13 speakers? Can you even tell were sounds originate with that many speakers? I greatly anticipate hearing it for myself, but if it causes me to spend a boatload of money.... 




audioguy said:


> It is a scary thing. And I have 3 bad things: age, heart disease, partially compromised kidney function. So needless to say, I am trying to be super careful.


Yes, but you're doing all the right things. I've no doubt you're staying home, washing your hands, wearing a mask if you need to go out, etc. My wife is sewing cloth masks if you need some. Just let me know. They're really expensive tho... She has a personal stockpile of fabric that could make about 16 bazillion masks. We're heading to NY tomorrow with a trunk full. Gotta make a buck some how, right? 

J/K! She's giving them away! 



audioguy said:


> I can't imagine what it must be like for you going to work everyday.


We're turning our OR's into ICU beds, 4 patients per OR. Can't do surgery in 'em tho, so the elective schedule is cancelled. Just emergencies now. 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> I just have to ask Chuck... I know it's 20 discrete speakers... and I don't doubt it's more immersive... but is it really *that* much more immersive than 13 speakers? Can you even tell were sounds originate with that many speakers? I greatly anticipate hearing it for myself, but if it causes me to spend a boatload of money....


I have stated this on multiple threads: 7.x.4 is the sweet spot. For the vast majority of Dolby material, there is not much upside but when the recording has lots of objects and will use every channel you have, it is pretty amazing (e.g. Gravity and Hurricane Heist). And now that DTS:X Pro is available, it is VERY nice improvement. Is it better? Yes. But the improvement for each additional set of speakers decreases. The differences are not of the magnitude of going from 7.1.to 7.x.4. Am I glad I did it? Yes? Necessary to be pulled into the movie? NO !!! This is not unlike some of the upgrades I made in my stupid expensive 2 channel days - but better.

What you will love when you come is the HUGE improvement when using AuroMatic on DVD-A 5.1 stuff (that I got from you) - one example is Dark Side of the Moon. I have never heard it sound like that. Overhead stuff (that is clearly not on the disc) is so much fun!!

You will get to decide yourself when you are here. I will say that the improvement (to my ears) moving from Audyssey to first Dirac and now Optimizer is really a good bit larger than moving from 7.x.4 to 9.x.6. That difference was NOT subtle!


----------



## BP1Fanatic

audioguy said:


> If Marantz adds DTS:X Pro, you will really be a happy guy. The up-mixer will use every speaker you have. Below is the DTS:X Pro speaker usage and the squares represent the speakers in my room.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is how the Trinnov sees my room:


AWESOME setup! I have been using DTS:X lately in mancave since I read about Pro a couple of months ago. I like it better over Dolby for PCM music. I've been using Neo:6 in my basement while I work from home.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> I have stated this on multiple threads: 7.x.4 is the sweet spot. For the vast majority of Dolby material, there is not much upside but when the recording has lots of objects and will use every channel you have, it is pretty amazing (e.g. Gravity and Hurricane Heist). And now that DTS:X Pro is available, it is VERY nice improvement. Is it better? Yes. But the improvement for each additional set of speakers decreases. The differences are not of the magnitude of going from 7.1.to 7.x.4. Am I glad I did it? Yes? Necessary to be pulled into the movie? NO !!! This is not unlike some of the upgrades I made in my stupid expensive 2 channel days - but better.
> 
> What you will love when you come is the HUGE improvement when using AuroMatic on DVD-A 5.1 stuff (that I got from you) - one example is Dark Side of the Moon. I have never heard it sound like that. Overhead stuff (that is clearly not on the disc) is so much fun!!


I worked my behind off this past weekend, so I took a day off today. I spent it revisiting my DVD-A and SACD collection. I listened to a bunch of Steely Dan and Donald Fagan stuff. I used DTS Neural:X and DSU, and you are correct! Adding overhead stuff that definitely wasn't on the original disc increases the immersiveness significantly. It also expanded the size of the soundstage noticeably. I was also pleased to hear that the original imaging was not diminished by adding the extra channels, which I feared could potentially intefer with imaging specificity. With DTS Neural:X, I turned off the rear surrounds, which allowed me to add the Wides. That alone made a huge difference. 

Having said that, some of the mixes are still kind of irritating, and the overhard/wide content didn't help. I really dislike hearing "background singers" coming from my right and left SURROUNDS! Background singers should be BEHIND the primary soundstage, not beside it. But that's a blunder made by the mixing engineer, not the surround codec. 



audioguy said:


> You will get to decide yourself when you are here. I will say that the improvement (to my ears) moving from Audyssey to first Dirac and now Optimizer is really a good bit larger than moving from 7.x.4 to 9.x.6. That difference was NOT subtle!


I'm looking forward to hearing these upgrades, but I'm leaving my wallet at home with my wife! 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Having said that, some of the mixes are still kind of irritating, and the overhard/wide content didn't help. I really dislike hearing "background singers" coming from my right and left SURROUNDS! Background singers should be BEHIND the primary soundstage, not beside it. But that's a blunder made by the mixing engineer, not the surround codec.


I find lots of sounds coming from the surrounds that don't belong there and it is a bit distracting, but it "almost works" given the music. Even with that, they are still fun discs (I finally got them all ripped to my server). 



> I'm looking forward to hearing these upgrades, but *I'm leaving my wallet at home with my wife*!
> 
> Craig


But if you are anything like me (fortunately for you, I don't think you are) it won't help. 

After my last upgrade (about which I had assured my wife would never happen), we had some "discussion". Now all of my money and energy is into buying new movies. And the good news: no more space in my rack to put anything and no more empty wall (or ceiling) space to place speakers. And I already own the top of the line processor and a video chain that given my screen size, doesn't scream for improvement. And given the almost minuscule improvement I got from the upgrade, I MAY have learned my lesson. 

When you come, and if it works out, I would like you to hear a theater that belongs to a guy for whom I have done some consulting and calibration. He lives in Atlanta. His ear level speakers are all Wisdom line source speakers (Sage II's up front and L8i as surrounds), *12* Seaton F18's, amps are all ATI, projector is NX9 with Panamoprh Paladin Lens and Lumagen video processor and a Trinnov Altitude 16 processor. The last time I calibrated it, he ONLY had 8 F18's and his surrounds were not Wisdom line source. And it was clear that when he made the next changes, it would become the best home theater I have ever heard. It will be a 7.x.4, but his room size (~19 x ~19 x 9) really won't support more speakers. Even as it was when I was last there, music was just stupid good. 

There is also a friend here who, at the moment, has the best 2 channel system I have ever heard - Magico's dtriven by Spectral amps in a custom built room, Simply extraordinary.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> I find lots of sounds coming from the surrounds that don't belong there and it is a bit distracting, but it "almost works" given the music. Even with that, they are still fun discs (I finally got them all ripped to my server).


Yes they are fun! I plan to make some more time to listen to the other stuff in my collection. Most of it doesn't use the extreme side surround mixing that Elliot Scheiner used on the SD/DF DVD-A mixes. 



audioguy said:


> But if you are anything like me (fortunately for you, I don't think you are) it won't help.
> 
> After my last upgrade (about which I had assured my wife would never happen), we had some "discussion". Now all of my money and energy is into buying new movies. And the good news: no more space in my rack to put anything and no more empty wall (or ceiling) space to place speakers. And I already own the top of the line processor and a video chain that given my screen size, doesn't scream for improvement. And given the almost minuscule improvement I got from the upgrade, I MAY have learned my lesson.
> 
> When you come, and if it works out, I would like you to hear a theater that belongs to a guy for whom I have done some consulting and calibration. He lives in Atlanta. His ear level speakers are all Wisdom line source speakers (Sage II's up front and L8i as surrounds), *12* Seaton F18's, amps are all ATI, projector is NX9 with Panamoprh Paladin Lens and Lumagen video processor and a Trinnov Altitude 16 processor. The last time I calibrated it, he ONLY had 8 F18's and his surrounds were not Wisdom line source. And it was clear that when he made the next changes, it would become the best home theater I have ever heard. It will be a 7.x.4, but his room size (~19 x ~19 x 9) really won't support more speakers. Even as it was when I was last there, music was just stupid good.
> 
> There is also a friend here who, at the moment, has the best 2 channel system I have ever heard - Magico's dtriven by Spectral amps in a custom built room, Simply extraordinary.


My wife has given me the "Once you retire..." speech. I'm on lockdown! 

One of the very best systems I've ever heard was a Wisdom Audio multi-channel line source system. Dynamics, imaging, soundstage, FR smoothness, immersiveness, etc. were all at the top of all systems I've ever heard. That system was well into $$$ 6-figures... so far out of reach for me that I could only appreciate it, not lust after it. 

I would love to hear that system, as well as the Magico's. However, with Georgia re-opening this early, I'm afraid of re-bound. We'll have to see how this virus stuff plays out to figure out when it can happen. Stay safe and stay healthy. 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> One of the very best systems I've ever heard was a Wisdom Audio multi-channel line source system. Dynamics, imaging, soundstage, FR smoothness, immersiveness, etc. were all at the top of all systems I've ever heard. That system was well into $$$ 6-figures... so far out of reach for me that I could only appreciate it, not lust after it.


I could probably pull off the cost of the speakers (nothing near their top of the line), but install cost plus ancillary cost would be almost as much as the speaker cost. Since the front 3 speakers are bi-amped, I would need another 3 channels of amp AND another 3 channels of Trinnov. Those two cost are probably well north of $10,000. And since the speakers need to be in or on-wall, they would need to go behind my screen - and my masking system in not acoustically transparent. So new screen and masking system (~$10,000); the wall onto or into which the left speaker would go has many of the 20amp circuits buried in it that would need to be moved. And all of the locations where my surrounds are would need to be highly modified - and this is why I still have and will for as long as I live, Triads. I have heard many, many theaters with different kinds of speakers and the only one I found to be significantly superior to what I already own are the Wisdoms. 



> would love to hear that system, as well as the Magico's. However, with Georgia re-opening this early, I'm afraid of re-bound. We'll have to see how this virus stuff plays out to figure out when it can happen. Stay safe and stay healthy.
> 
> Craig


The governor's decision is poorly thought out and moronic. There was a poll on the news as it was being discussed and 96% of the respondents disapproved. Every health care professional I have spoken to disagrees with it. Georgia cases are INCREASING and many of the hospitals are already at capacity. The best estimates I have heard are that our peak will be mid May. So he is needlessly putting folks at risk and many hundreds or thousands will needlessly die as a result. And the possibility of a second was is very high even if he was much smarter than he is. I have no doubt that we have not seen the last of this Chinese virus. We had a trip planned in August and we just cancelled it.


This will EVENTUALLY get better and then we can get together.


----------



## MIkeDuke

Glad to see these upgrades Craig and even better to hear that you like them so much. I hope to hear and see the changes myself once everything cools down. And you know what we have to talk about . Plus, maybe one other thing to discuss. But your discussion with Chuck is way over my head so I need to try and read it again.


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> Glad to see these upgrades Craig and even better to hear that you like them so much. I hope to hear and see the changes myself once everything cools down. And you know what we have to talk about . Plus, maybe one other thing to discuss. But your discussion with Chuck is way over my head so I need to try and read it again.


Hi Mike,

It's almost time for a couple of ROAD TRIPS!  Looking forward to it!


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> I could probably pull off the cost of the speakers (nothing near their top of the line), but install cost plus ancillary cost would be almost as much as the speaker cost. Since the front 3 speakers are bi-amped, I would need another 3 channels of amp AND another 3 channels of Trinnov. Those two cost are probably well north of $10,000. And since the speakers need to be in or on-wall, they would need to go behind my screen - and my masking system in not acoustically transparent. So new screen and masking system (~$10,000); the wall onto or into which the left speaker would go has many of the 20amp circuits buried in it that would need to be moved. And all of the locations where my surrounds are would need to be highly modified - and this is why I still have and will for as long as I live, Triads. I have heard many, many theaters with different kinds of speakers and the only one I found to be significantly superior to what I already own are the Wisdoms.


Let me know when construction starts! 



audioguy said:


> The governor's decision is poorly thought out and moronic. There was a poll on the news as it was being discussed and 96% of the respondents disapproved. Every health care professional I have spoken to disagrees with it. Georgia cases are INCREASING and many of the hospitals are already at capacity. The best estimates I have heard are that our peak will be mid May. So he is needlessly putting folks at risk and many hundreds or thousands will needlessly die as a result. And the possibility of a second was is very high even if he was much smarter than he is. I have no doubt that we have not seen the last of this Chinese virus. We had a trip planned in August and we just cancelled it.


We have a summer vacation planned with a big house on the beach at the Outer Banks. All the kids and grandkids for 10 days. We haven't cancelled yet, and we're still hoping it'll happen. We'll see. 



audioguy said:


> This will EVENTUALLY get better and then we can get together.


----------



## MIkeDuke

craig john said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> It's almost time for a couple of ROAD TRIPS!  Looking forward to it!


Me too Craig. That is if your are willing to "suffer" with my 7.1.2 setup (that isn't even real atmos). 
But still it would be great to hang out at your place or mine. Of course I would love to hear Chucks system
But it's kind of far, for me.


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Let me know when construction starts!


The cost of that project would pale in comparison to the cost of my divorce. 

While I have now said I will never again say "no upgrades", moving to Wisdom speakers is never going to happen. Cost notwithstanding, it is a multi-month project and I refuse to have an unusable theater for that period of time.


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> The cost of that project would pale in comparison to the cost of my divorce.
> 
> While I have now said I will never again say "no upgrades", moving to Wisdom speakers is never going to happen. Cost notwithstanding, it is a multi-month project and I refuse to have an unusable theater for that period of time.


Chuck,


We All will be Watching to see how things go as I'm rather Confident you might go for it .....................



T.


----------



## audioguy

tigerhonaker said:


> Chuck,
> 
> 
> We All will be Watching to see how things go as I'm rather Confident you might go for it .....................
> 
> 
> 
> T.



For this particular change, I will more than happy to bet whatever you or anyone else are willing to put up. As I said, I can't say there will NEVER be any changes in this room but I am saying moving to Wisdom speakers won't be one of them (unless Wisdom decides to give me the speakers and pay all of the other expenses associated with getting them installed). So, don't hold your breath!


----------



## tigerhonaker

tigerhonaker said:


> Chuck,
> 
> 
> We All will be Watching to see how things go as I'm rather Confident you might go for it .....................
> 
> 
> 
> T.





audioguy said:


> For this particular change, I will more than happy to bet whatever you or anyone else are willing to put up. As I said, I can't say there will NEVER be any changes in this room but I am saying moving to Wisdom speakers won't be one of them (unless Wisdom decides to give me the speakers and pay all of the other expenses associated with getting them installed). So, don't hold your breath!


Chuck,





T.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> The governor's decision is poorly thought out and moronic. There was a poll on the news as it was being discussed and 96% of the respondents disapproved. Every health care professional I have spoken to disagrees with it. Georgia cases are INCREASING and many of the hospitals are already at capacity. The best estimates I have heard are that our peak will be mid May. So he is needlessly putting folks at risk and many hundreds or thousands will needlessly die as a result. And the possibility of a second was is very high even if he was much smarter than he is. I have no doubt that we have not seen the last of this Chinese virus. We had a trip planned in August and we just cancelled it.


At least you'll be able to get a haircut, a tattoo and a massage!


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> At least you'll be able to get a haircut, a tattoo and a massage!



After which we can go bowling !!


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> After which we can go bowling !!


Bowling while social distancing in Georgia...










After bowling....
Guy on the left going for a haircut. 
Guy on the right going for tattoo. 
Two in the middle going for group massage. 

Thanks Guvna!


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Lmao


----------



## DietCokeFan

Craig-
What are the dimensions of your room? Did I read that your seating distance is 9.5" from the screen? Gives me hope as I don't have a huge room and want to plan out my system in the near future.


----------



## craig john

DietCokeFan said:


> Craig-
> What are the dimensions of your room? Did I read that your seating distance is* 9.5"* from the screen? Gives me hope as I don't have a huge room and want to plan out my system in the near future.


I do sit 9.5 ft, (not inches  ) from the screen, but the screen is 2.5 ft forward from the front wall with the CC behind it. My seating is actually 12 ft from the front wall. My screen is 120" diagonal, 2.35:1. 

My room is 27 ft deep by 8 ft high. The width is variable as I have steps that land in an alcove on the right, then my equipment cabinet, then a hallway leading to a bathroom and then a small bar area. At it's widest it is 19 feet wide and at it's narrowest, it is 15 ft wide. 

I hope this helps. Congrats on starting your project. Keep us informed of your progress as you move forward. We're always here to help!


----------



## DietCokeFan

Damn typo! I'm just staring to think about putting together my HT. Total redo of a foreclosure so there is a lot of work to be done. I have an area in mind for the HT but not sure of components, speakers, etc. Just saw LCR of Triad Gold in the classifieds. Never thought of those before but just made they are an option. Lots of research to do before I start buying things.


----------



## Dan Hitchman

craig john said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> I downsized the screen from 120" Diag. 2.35:1 to 115" Diag. 2.35:1, so just a 5" downsize. I downsized *slightly* to make the WAF of the new screen more palatable to my wife, who occasionally complains of motion sickness on fast moving scenes. I also switched to the UF screen material. After much discussion with the boys at SeymourAV, including Chris S., we decided my viewing distance of 9.5' was a little too close for the XD material. Also, I added the side masking to remove the (very dark) gray side borders.
> 
> I do really like 3D audio. I just wish I could use my full speaker count on all content. It is clearly noticeable when the Wides are active on native Atmos content. The immersiveness is on a different level with all 13 speakers engaged. It seems like a huge oversight by Dolby and DTS to not include the Wides into their upmixers. I'll bet I would be a LOT happier if they had done so. At this point, I just feel like I traded some base-level immersiveness for some overhead immersiveness. Seems like a lateral move more than a horizontal one, (reverse pun intended!)
> 
> I can't wait to visit you and your lovely wife, and your magnificent theater! I also can't wait until this virus scare goes away. It's a scary thing to go into the hospital right now.  And sad. We have 28 patients in-house right now with 14 on ventilators. We're not overwhelmed... yet. The hospital is gearing up for a surge in 2 - 3 weeks, with a peak in late May/early June... ya know... just before I retire! I've worked in Open Heart Surgery for almost 38 years. I'm ready to be done. I just wish it were on better terms than the current situation!
> 
> Looking forward to seeing you late summer/early fall.
> 
> Craig
> 
> PS. We hired my replacement yesterday. He starts June 15th.



Craig,


Have you considered changing out your Marantz pre-pro with a different one? If you get a processor with even a slightly higher channel count, you can have your front wides as well as all the other speakers active. Just make sure that the unit can be upgraded to *DTS: X Pro* whenever that is added to units outside of the Trinnov. I don't recommend Emotiva processors given their track record, however.


----------



## craig john

Dan Hitchman said:


> Craig,
> 
> 
> Have you considered changing out your Marantz pre-pro with a different one? If you get a processor with even a slightly higher channel count, you can have your front wides as well as all the other speakers active. Just make sure that the unit can be upgraded to *DTS: X Pro* whenever that is added to units outside of the Trinnov. I don't recommend Emotiva processors given their track record, however.


Hi Dan,

The Marantz has 15.2 channels available, but it can only process and output 13.2 at a time. Also, it won't use the Wide channels on anything except native Atmos content that has metadata for Wides. The DSU won't use them under any circumstance, and DTS NeuralX will only use them if the Rear Surrounds are disabled. 

Do you know of a processor that can output 13 to 15 channels simultaneously, or will use the Wides for both upmixers, without going to the expense of something like a Trinnov or DataSat? I am not aware of any, nor am I aware of any (more) affordable processors that are coming out with DTS:X Pro capability. If you know of something... I'm all ears! 

In the Triad thread, you asked about my backboxes for the RSL C32e's. They are built out of 3/4" MDF. They 23.75" square and 5.5 " tall, Outside Dimensions. This makes the internal volume 1,980 cubic inches. One cubic foot is 1728 cubic inches, so my boxes are 1.15 cubic feet, which is close enough to the RSL recommended 1.2 cubic feet. The internal seams are sealed with rubber caulking and the boxes are stuffed with polyfill. They are 1/4" shy of 2' x 2' and that allows them to drop perfectly and snugly into my 2 x 2 ceiling gridwork. 

Craig


----------



## Dan Hitchman

craig john said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> The Marantz has 15.2 channels available, but it can only process and output 13.2 at a time. Also, it won't use the Wide channels on anything except native Atmos content that has metadata for Wides. The DSU won't use them under any circumstance, and DTS NeuralX will only use them if the Rear Surrounds are disabled.
> 
> Do you know of a processor that can output 13 to 15 channels simultaneously, or will use the Wides for both upmixers, without going to the expense of something like a Trinnov or DataSat? I am not aware of any, nor am I aware of any (more) affordable processors that are coming out with DTS:X Pro capability. If you know of something... I'm all ears!
> 
> In the Triad thread, you asked about my backboxes for the RSL C32e's. They are built out of 3/4" MDF. They 23.75" square and 5.5 " tall, Outside Dimensions. This makes the internal volume 1,980 cubic inches. One cubic foot is 1728 cubic inches, so my boxes are 1.15 cubic feet, which is close enough to the RSL recommended 1.2 cubic feet. The internal seams are sealed with rubber caulking and the boxes are stuffed with polyfill. They are 1/4" shy of 2' x 2' and that allows them to drop perfectly and snugly into my 2 x 2 ceiling gridwork.
> 
> Craig



Thanks for the info on the backer boxes! 



The Monoprice Monolith HTP-1 (built by ATI) checks off many of the boxes you are looking for. It does 16 channels (up to 9.1.6 or 9.2.4). It has Dirac with an upcoming Bass Management Module (to get the highest tiers of sub management calibration, there is an upgrade fee from Dirac - nothing to do with Monoprice - but the base tier of BMM is free). The HTP-1 is upgradeable to DTS: X Pro for free (this will allow native DTS: X and Neural: X upmixing to use all speaker outputs), and will be eligible for a paid HDMI 2.1 board upgrade in the future. Dolby Surround upmixing does not allow for front wide synthesis, so ATI devised a way to output matrixed Front Wide audio channels in different modes. This feature is disabled with native Dolby Atmos or DTS: X Pro modes (when available) due to Pro already allowing for Front Wides with all other speakers active and Dolby Labs restricting the use of upmixers on top of Atmos. 


It is not absolutely perfect, but is far more stable out of the box than Emotiva or even the JBL Synthesis SDP-55, which have been plagued with firmware problems. Monoprice has been willing to add features and upgrades that customers have asked for. The interface is quite slick and user friendly. Firmware updates have been frequent to address various issues, again, unlike the once awesome Synthesis brand. 


The HTP-1 was also measuring much better than the current crop of high end Denon and Marantz flagships. 


In order to keep the price at just shy of $4,000, you do need to purchase a separate Dirac compatible microphone (they don't break the bank, thankfully), but then you can choose whichever calibration mic model that meets your needs.


https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=37887


----------



## audioguy

I can’t comment on the processor but Dirac is about a gazillion times better than Audyssey and ATI is an excellent company. I have three of their amps!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## craig john

Dan Hitchman said:


> Thanks for the info on the backer boxes!
> 
> 
> 
> The Monoprice Monolith HTP-1 (built by ATI) checks off many of the boxes you are looking for. It does 16 channels (up to 9.1.6 or 9.2.4). It has Dirac with an upcoming Bass Management Module (to get the highest tiers of sub management calibration, there is an upgrade fee from Dirac - nothing to do with Monoprice - but the base tier of BMM is free). The HTP-1 is upgradeable to DTS: X Pro for free (this will allow native DTS: X and Neural: X upmixing to use all speaker outputs), and will be eligible for a paid HDMI 2.1 board upgrade in the future. Dolby Surround upmixing does not allow for front wide synthesis, so ATI devised a way to output matrixed Front Wide audio channels in different modes. This feature is disabled with native Dolby Atmos or DTS: X Pro modes (when available) due to Pro already allowing for Front Wides with all other speakers active and Dolby Labs restricting the use of upmixers on top of Atmos.
> 
> 
> It is not absolutely perfect, but is far more stable out of the box than Emotiva or even the JBL Synthesis SDP-55, which have been plagued with firmware problems. Monoprice has been willing to add features and upgrades that customers have asked for. The interface is quite slick and user friendly. Firmware updates have been frequent to address various issues, again, unlike the once awesome Synthesis brand.
> 
> 
> The HTP-1 was also measuring much better than the current crop of high end Denon and Marantz flagships.
> 
> 
> In order to keep the price at just shy of $4,000, you do need to purchase a separate Dirac compatible microphone (they don't break the bank, thankfully), but then you can choose whichever calibration mic model that meets your needs.
> 
> 
> https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=37887


Thanks Dan. The Monoprice unit looks interesting, but is "Out of Stock" with no mention when it will be back in stock. It appears to have 3 sub outs, but those outputs look like they can also be assigned to the Wides? If one uses it that way, does that leave only 1 Subwoofer output? I don't see a link to the manual so I can't tell. (Nevermind, I found a link to the manual in the Monolith thread.) 

Also, I owned a miniDSP DDRC88A for about 6 months back before I went to Atmos. I must have run the Dirac routine 100 times. I tried multiple target curves. I tried multiple different mic placement strategies. I played with levels and gains. I never, in 6 months, got Dirac to sound as good as Audyssey. I was never able to measure anything in-room that was remotely close to the target curves in Dirac, even with multiple, spatially averaged measurements trying to mimic the mic placements I used for the Dirac measuerments. I deleted alll the measurements after I sold it, or I could show you the confusing response graphs I got. When I finally went back to Audyssey, I was like "AHHHH... THAT's what it supposed to sound like!" I don't know if I had a defective unit, or if I was the defective part. I know my experience is not widely shared by most of the forum users, (Chuck included). Nonetheless, I am a little gun shy. 

I'll do some more reading in that that thread. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Craig


----------



## Dan Hitchman

craig john said:


> Thanks Dan. The Monoprice unit looks interesting, but is "Out of Stock" with no mention when it will be back in stock. It appears to have 3 sub outs, but those outputs look like they can also be assigned to the Wides? If one uses it that way, does that leave only 1 Subwoofer output? I don't see a link to the manual so I can't tell. (Nevermind, I found a link to the manual in the Monolith thread.)
> 
> Also, I owned a miniDSP DDRC88A for about 6 months back before I went to Atmos. I must have run the Dirac routine 100 times. I tried multiple target curves. I tried multiple different mic placement strategies. I played with levels and gains. I never, in 6 months, got Dirac to sound as good as Audyssey. I was never able to measure anything in-room that was remotely close to the target curves in Dirac, even with multiple, spatially averaged measurements trying to mimic the mic placements I used for the Dirac measuerments. I deleted alll the measurements after I sold it, or I could show you the confusing response graphs I got. When I finally went back to Audyssey, I was like "AHHHH... THAT's what it supposed to sound like!" I don't know if I had a defective unit, or if I was the defective part. I know my experience is not widely shared by most of the forum users, (Chuck included). Nonetheless, I am a little gun shy.
> 
> I'll do some more reading in that that thread. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
> 
> Craig



The current target is early June for the next shipment from ATI in California. However, the virus is calling the shots right now and probably will be for some time to come given the absolutely appalling general response from governments across the board at local, state, and federal (just different levels of bad and incompetence). 

The HTP-1 is like a mini Datasat processor given that ATI also builds Datasat products and there's a lot of cross platforming involved. In fact, ATI scrapped their own processor because it was going to be so similar to the HTP-1. 

Quite a few higher end processors have moved to Dirac. Maybe you just had a bum unit. That can happen. However, it's always possible that in a year to a year and a half that D+M will come out with new flagship units that address higher channel counts, DTS: X Pro, etc. unless we're under another lock down scenario.


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> Also, I owned a miniDSP DDRC88A for about 6 months back before I went to Atmos. I must have run the Dirac routine 100 times. I tried multiple target curves. I tried multiple different mic placement strategies. I played with levels and gains. I never, in 6 months, got Dirac to sound as good as Audyssey. I was never able to measure anything in-room that was remotely close to the target curves in Dirac, even with multiple, spatially averaged measurements trying to mimic the mic placements I used for the Dirac measuerments. I deleted alll the measurements after I sold it, or I could show you the confusing response graphs I got. When I finally went back to Audyssey, I was like "AHHHH... THAT's what it supposed to sound like!" I don't know if I had a defective unit, or if I was the defective part. I know my experience is not widely shared by most of the forum users, (Chuck included). Nonetheless, I am a little gun shy.
> 
> I'll do some more reading in that that thread. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
> 
> Craig



While I have no doubts about your experience, I find it to be so bizarre. And knowing you, I'm sure you gave it every opportunity. 

Given my experiences with moving from Audyssey to Dirac and and those of calibration clients I helped and several friends, I can only assume it had to be the platform on which Dirac was running. The positive differences between Dirac and Audyssey were so profound in each case that it was actually hard to believe. *Much* better bass integration and the overall sense of envelopment was so much improved. Speakers just disappeared. In each case, however, it was a Datasat. Either the LS10 or the RS20i. Of course, there were other platform options that may certainly have been part of the success - like cross-over slope and type selection. While you could probably buy a used LS10 for a fair price, it currently only supports 11 active channels (7.x.4) and I doubt that it will be upgraded to handle DTS:X Pro

Maybe when the ATI product gets back in stock you can get one with some kind of return policy.


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> While I have no doubts about your experience, I find it to be so bizarre. And knowing you, I'm sure you gave it every opportunity.
> 
> Given my experiences with moving from Audyssey to Dirac and and those of calibration clients I helped and several friends, I can only assume it had to be the platform on which Dirac was running. The positive differences between Dirac and Audyssey were so profound in each case that it was actually hard to believe. *Much* better bass integration and the overall sense of envelopment was so much improved. Speakers just disappeared. In each case, however, it was a Datasat. Either the LS10 or the RS20i. Of course, there were other platform options that may certainly have been part of the success - like cross-over slope and type selection. While you could probably buy a used LS10 for a fair price, it currently only supports 11 active channels (7.x.4) and I doubt that it will be upgraded to handle DTS:X Pro
> 
> Maybe when the ATI product gets back in stock you can get one with some kind of return policy.


Yeah, the whole Dirac experience was totally confounding to me. I was expecting, based on all the forum hype, that I would be able to improve on Audyssey with Dirac. I never got it to that point... not even close. And after listening, I would take measurements to try to see what was wrong... and everything was wrong! The measurements were never smooth, and they never reflected the target curve. 

I see they now have a Bass Management module, and that may improve things, but the bass wasn't the only area where I had problems. The full range of the response was f'd. I even tried cutting of the EQ at 300 Hz. Surprising, the response above 300 Hz was still different after even this change! My conclusion was that I either had a defective unit, or the user was defective. I contacted the guy who bought my DDRC 88A to see if he ever got it to work, but he said he never even set it up and he sold it a few months after receiving it. So I guess I'll never know which part was defective, me or the device. 

Right now, I have my system set up with the Rear Surrounds disabled, which allows me to use the Wides with DTS Neural:X. I love the widened front soundstage I get with that setting. I also love the seam;ess of the pans when sounds move from Front to Wides to Sides. I don't miss the RS's that much because the Rear Overheads take up some of that slack. If I watch an Atmos movie that uses the Wides, I'll turn the RS's back on, and I then get the full 9.3.4 effects... and that is spectacular! But a lot of what we watch is streamed and doesn't have Atmos, so I'm limited to Neural:X. I think I'm just gonna wait until someone comes out with a more affordable DTS:X Pro processor with Audyssey, (or the unlikely event that Marantz does a DTS:X Pro upgrade for my 8805.) For me, that would be the best solution.

I can't wait to be able to travel again so I can check out the Oconee Theater!  That may change my mind!

Craig


----------



## craig john

@Dan Hitchman I've often wondered what your signature means: "Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!"  Can you fill me in? Thanks!


----------



## Dan Hitchman

craig john said:


> @Dan Hitchman I've often wondered what your signature means: "Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Liteâ„¢ print-outs must stop!!" /forum/images/smilies/confused.gif Can you fill me in? Thanks!


Some studio (mostly Disney 4k titles, but occasionally others) home Atmos mixes are locked/fixed to limited channel counts like 7.1.2 (bed channels only), 7.1.4, or 7.1.6.

The 3D objects (often behaving more like channels than pannable objects) are limited in movement and scalability to those particular speaker layouts and cannot address the full 24.1.10 home Atmos speaker layout. 

These types of limited Atmos encodes render more sophisticated Atmos processors (like the Trinnov, Monolith HTP-1, JBL Synthesis, Datasat, etc.) moot.


----------



## BP1Fanatic

craig john said:


> Right now, I have my system set up with the Rear Surrounds disabled, which allows me to use the Wides with DTS Neural:X. I love the widened front soundstage I get with that setting. I also love the seam;ess of the pans when sounds move from Front to Wides to Sides. I don't miss the RS's that much because the Rear Overheads take up some of that slack. If I watch an Atmos movie that uses the Wides, I'll turn the RS's back on, and I then get the full 9.3.4 effects... and that is spectacular! But a lot of what we watch is streamed and doesn't have Atmos, so I'm limited to Neural:X. I think I'm just gonna wait until someone comes out with a more affordable DTS:X Pro processor with Audyssey, (or the unlikely event that Marantz does a DTS:X Pro upgrade for my 8805.) For me, that would be the best solution.
> 
> I can't wait to be able to travel again so I can check out the Oconee Theater!  That may change my mind!
> 
> Craig


I love Neural:X! It definitely has a wider soundstage than Dolby.


----------



## craig john

Dan Hitchman said:


> Some studio (mostly Disney 4k titles, but occasionally others) home Atmos mixes are locked/fixed to limited channel counts like 7.1.2 (bed channels only), 7.1.4, or 7.1.6.
> 
> The 3D objects (often behaving more like channels than pannable objects) are limited in movement and scalability to those particular speaker layouts and cannot address the full 24.1.10 home Atmos speaker layout.
> 
> These types of limited Atmos encodes render more sophisticated Atmos processors (like the Trinnov, Monolith HTP-1, JBL Synthesis, Datasat, etc.) moot.


Thanks! Is there a database of these movies?


----------



## craig john

BP1Fanatic said:


> I love Neural:X! It definitely has a wider soundstage than Dolby.


I love it too! I just wish I could use my full speaker compliment with it.


----------



## audioguy

Craig: I just have to wonder if the mic you used for running Dirac was (very) faulty. These inexpensive mics do fail. I assume you sold the mic when you sold the miniDSP but if not, it would be (fairly) easy to check it out. When you said where the actual results looked nothing like the target just suggests something like a bad mic.


----------



## BP1Fanatic

craig john said:


> Thanks! Is there a database of these movies?


Disneyplus.com.


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Netflix also lets you search by Dolby Atmos.


----------



## Dan Hitchman

BP1Fanatic said:


> craig john said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! Is there a database of these movies?
> 
> 
> 
> Disneyplus.com.
Click to expand...

Ha! Pretty much.


----------



## craig john

My new screen is installed! It's a SeymourAV 2.35:1, retractable electric screen with side masking. At 105" wide and 115" diagonal, it's slightly smaller than my previous screen, which was 110" wide and 120" diagonal. I downsized slightly at my wife's request as she experienced motion sickness on widescreen action moves with lots of left/right, right/left panning. Our seating is only 9.5' from the screen so the image is quite immersive even though its not huge. The new screen uses their CenterStage UF AT screen material. My old screen used their older CenterStage material, which was a generation BEFORE the XD material. It had a fairly wide open weave which let a lot of light through the screen, reducing brightness, which I wasn't aware of until I got the new screen. Even though the new screen has a lower gain specification, the image is actually actually brighter and the colors have more "pop" than the old screen! Its also more detailed, smoother and crisper than the old screen. The retractable side masks make 16:9 viewing much better by eliminating the gray pillars on the sides of the image. 

I demo'd it for my wife by playing a few scenes from King Kong, (the brontosaurus stampede and the scene were Kong Kong fights 3 T-Rex's.) The first thing she mentioned was that the picture looked more dimensional. Then she said it looked brighter and the colors looked better. Finally, when demo was done, I asked her if she experienced any motion sensitivities. "Nope!" She's happy.. so Daddy is happy! I'm fine with the slightly smaller screen. The improvement in picture quality is well worth the tradeoff! I'll post up some pictures soon. 

A very big THANK YOU to forum members @reg152 and @DMark1 for the help with the design of the mounting system and the installation. These guys went way above and beyond and I truly appreciate their help!!! The screen ended up being *perfectly* aligned with the projector and is so solidly installed that I can literally hang from the screen. We used a UniStrut system and threaded steel rods to suspend the screen from the joists. It looks GREAT and very professional! Thanks again guys!

Craig


----------



## audioguy

^^ Excellent. New projector and a new screen. *And* the wife is happy. Does not get much better in video land.


----------



## craig john

Pic's of the new screen:

Screen up:









Screen down in full Widescreen Cinemascope screen. 









Here's a couple screenshots:


















Masks down in 16:9 mode. This appears small, but it is actually a 92" diagonal image, which is still bigger than most any OLED or QLED flat panel TV. 









Here's some screen shots:



























The mounting system. The threaded steel rods go up through the ceiling tiles and attach to the UniStrut system mounted to the joists above the suspended ceiling. 









This is Seymour's new tab tensioning system. The webbing is new and probably helps to spread the tensioning over a wider area. You can also see the density of the weave of the ULF material.









Finally, these are the new remotes, 1 each for the screen and the masks:









I'm gonna hafta get a Universal remote that can be programed for these and all my other remotes. This has become MADNESS! 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> The mounting system. The threaded steel rods go up through the ceiling tiles and attach to the UniStrut system mounted to the joists above the suspended ceiling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Craig



Now that is some clever engineering.


----------



## craig john

Yeah, that was all Dennis and Ryan! Those guys engineered this whole mounting system. (BTW, Ryan ( @*reg152* ), is the guy who bought your Submersives a few years back. Ryan and a friend of his drove down there and got them, and they each took 2. He's building a new theater right now and it will be AWESOME! 16 seats, 155" screen, 9.2.6 3D audio... etc. I suggested he start a thread here, and he may get around to that eventually.) 

I'm gonna get some shrink wrap and put it on the ends of the threaded rods, just to make them a little less visible. We talked about cutting them off with a Dremel tool, but that would make the nuts hard to get off if I ever need to change anything or take the screen down  for any reason. That pic was taken with a bright light shining up into that area. When the lights are off in the theater, they're not really visible at all. None of the mounting system is visible. 

Craig

PS. Looks like I need to clean the screen case! Fingerprints and dust all over it. That stripe is from the binding tape that went around the screen during shipping.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Greetings Craig,

Just looked at all your new posts.
New screen with the 16x9 masking look sweet buddy.
And the mounting looks as you said ............ Solid !!!




Terry


----------



## craig john

tigerhonaker said:


> Greetings Craig,
> 
> Just looked at all your new posts.
> New screen with the 16x9 masking look sweet buddy.
> And the mounting looks as you said ............ Solid !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terry


Thank you.


----------



## SouthernCA

craig john said:


> Pic's of the new screen:
> 
> Screen up:
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> Screen down in full Widescreen Cinemascope screen.
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> Masks down in 16:9 mode. This appears small, but it is actually a 92" diagonal image, which is still bigger than most any OLED or QLED flat panel TV.
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> Here's some screen shots:
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> The mounting system. The threaded steel rods go up through the ceiling tiles and attach to the UniStrut system mounted to the joists above the suspended ceiling.
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> This is Seymour's new tab tensioning system. The webbing is new and probably helps to spread the tensioning over a wider area. You can also see the density of the weave of the ULF material.
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> Finally, these are the new remotes, 1 each for the screen and the masks:
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> I'm gonna hafta get a Universal remote that can be programed for these and all my other remotes. This has become MADNESS!
> 
> Craig


Love the idea of using a second screen to mask the sides for 16:9 projections.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## craig john

SouthernCA said:


> Love the idea of using a second screen to mask the sides for 16:9 projections.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Thanks, but just to be clear, it's not a "second screen." The side masks roll down out of the same case as the wide screen. They cover the side black pillar bars when watching 16:9 materail on a 2.35:1 screen. They have a second set of motors that just drop the masks. 

Craig


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## audioguy

craig john said:


> (BTW, Ryan ( @*reg152* ), is the guy who bought your Submersives a few years back. Ryan and a friend of his drove down there and got them, and they each took 2. He's building a new theater right now and it will be AWESOME! 16 seats, 155" screen, 9.2.6 3D audio... etc. I suggested he start a thread here, and he may get around to that eventually.)



I remember that transaction. Nice guys. I have swapped out a lot of equipment in the time I have been in this hobby. Virtually all made medium to huge improvements. Trading out the SubMersives was the absolute worst decision I have made. It was the opposite of an improvement. While the F18's are great subs, they are nowhere as good for music as are the SubMersives and the mid/upper bass is far superior to the F18. I can't tell you how much time (and money) I have spent trying to get the F18 to sound like a SubMersive. 



And 16 seats in his theater? What are the room dimensions?


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## craig john

audioguy said:


> I remember that transaction. Nice guys. I have swapped out a lot of equipment in the time I have been in this hobby. Virtually all made medium to huge improvements. Trading out the SubMersives was the absolute worst decision I have made. It was the opposite of an improvement. While the F18's are great subs, they are nowhere as good for music as are the SubMersives and the mid/upper bass is far superior to the F18. I can't tell you how much time (and money) I have spent trying to get the F18 to sound like a SubMersive.


I know you've said this before, but I'm still surprised. I know the SubM's are incredible, but I was always under the impression that the F18's were equally impressive. I guess that's not so? 



audioguy said:


> And 16 seats in his theater? What are the room dimensions?


I *think* it's 17' x 25', but I'm not completely sure. I do know it's 2 rows of 5 with a bar and 6 chairs in the back. 

BTW, his SubM's were labeled differently. They both has two push buttons, but one said "Sub1/Sub2", while the other was the standard Mute/PMG buttons. They both *work* the same, but they're labeled differently. Just kinda weird.


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## audioguy

craig john said:


> I know you've said this before, but I'm still surprised. I know the SubM's are incredible, but I was always under the impression that the F18's were equally impressive. I guess that's not so?



Like most things in audio, personal preference plays a big role. The F18's are incredible subs. And it is entirely possible that the SubMersives liked my room better (whatever that means). For movies, I think it is close to a toss up, and the edge would go to the listeners preference toward more low end weight vs mid/upper bass slam. But for music, I just much prefer the SubMersives.


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## SouthernCA

craig john said:


> Thanks, but just to be clear, it's not a "second screen." The side masks roll down out of the same case as the wide screen. They cover the side black pillar bars when watching 16:9 materail on a 2.35:1 screen. They have a second set of motors that just drop the masks.
> 
> Craig


Yes. That is what I meant. Great idea.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Roger Dressler

audioguy said:


> While the F18's are great subs, they are nowhere as good for music as are the SubMersives and the mid/upper bass is far superior to the F18. I can't tell you how much time (and money) I have spent trying to get the F18 to sound like a SubMersive.


Hi Chuck,

Did you have the SubM's oriented with drivers facing front/back or sideways? I'm thinking of getting them for the music attributes but they have to be sideways to fit. Does it even matter?


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## audioguy

It makes no difference. The two I had in front were oriented with the drivers facing front and rear and the rear sub drivers faced across the room!! Just give the drivers facing the wall enough room to breath (maybe 4" or so)


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## craig john

Roger Dressler said:


> Hi Chuck,
> 
> Did you have the SubM's oriented with drivers facing front/back or sideways? I'm thinking of getting them for the music attributes but they have to be sideways to fit. Does it even matter?


Not Chuck, but orientation of the Submersives is not an important criterion. The "acoustic center" of the SubM is the exact middle of the inside of the box and rotation around that center does not effect the propagation. Like Chuck, I LOVE the sound of the SubM's for music, (and for HT!) Mark Seaton has changed the amplifier and I don't think the new one uses the same DSP as the old one, so check that to be sure. Also, Mark recommends at least 2" to 4" of space around the drivers for "breathing room." 

BTW, thanks for checking in to my thread! 

Craig

Ooops... I see Chuck beat me to it!


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## harrisu

audioguy said:


> I remember that transaction. Nice guys. I have swapped out a lot of equipment in the time I have been in this hobby. Virtually all made medium to huge improvements. Trading out the SubMersives was the absolute worst decision I have made. It was the opposite of an improvement. While the F18's are great subs, they are nowhere as good for music as are the SubMersives and the mid/upper bass is far superior to the F18. I can't tell you how much time (and money) I have spent trying to get the F18 to sound like a SubMersive.
> 
> 
> 
> And 16 seats in his theater? What are the room dimensions?


I have been chasing good Midbass for a while without the use of NF sub since I think NF can overcome the bass sound with TR (YMMV). I have built VBSS with PA460" drivers 
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa460-8-18-pro-woofer--295-036. I'm not a big DIY guy but build is so simple that I think anyone can do it. You build a 2-3 based on your needs and how your room responds to subs and you won't miss midbass. This VBSS+PA460 combo is amazing. Just to be clear, I had used other subs (Mini Marty......) in the same locations and VBSSS+PA460 made a BIG difference in midbass. If you want to step up the game then Devestators are the way to go. I have 2 of them now in my room and they can produce insane Midbass. Devastator is a little harder build but soooo worth it.


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## audioguy

harrisu said:


> I have been chasing good Midbass for a while without the use of NF sub since I think NF can overcome the bass sound with TR (YMMV). I have built VBSS with PA460" drivers
> https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa460-8-18-pro-woofer--295-036. I'm not a big DIY guy but build is so simple that I think anyone can do it. You build a 2-3 based on your needs and how your room responds to subs and you won't miss midbass. This VBSS+PA460 combo is amazing. Just to be clear, I had used other subs (Mini Marty......) in the same locations and VBSSS+PA460 made a BIG difference in midbass. If you want to step up the game then Devestators are the way to go. I have 2 of them now in my room and they can produce insane Midbass. Devastator is a little harder build but soooo worth it.



Thanks. But I'm done with DIY. Built four SI 18's. The Seaton SubMersives are the benchmark (to my ears) of the best of both worlds. Best mid/upper bass I have heard and if you have enough of them (I currently have 8 Seaton F18's) then there is enough headroom to have some low shelf PEQ's to tune south of 50 Hz anyway you like.


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## DMark1

I agree - The Seaton Submersives are the best sounding, most MUSICALLY accurate subwoofers I have heard yet. They are incredibly deep (down to 10 Hz measured in my room) and very "fast", meaning that I can easily hear both accurate pitch definition and timbre of bass notes. Accurate timbre means that I can easily tell a plucked acoustic upright bass apart from an electric bass, or the musical qualities of a tuba apart from a keyboard bass. When set up properly, there is no excess bass overhang, just great mid-bass punch and deep bass extension all from a single relatively compact subwoofer package. 

I was happy to help install Craig's new screen on Saturday. It is very solidly mounted with Unistrut directly to the ceiling joists and 4 threaded rods down through the ceiling tiles suspending the screen, The whole system will probably hold 1,000 lbs, so its not coming down anytime soon! LOL The final mounting design also resulted in a much "cleaner" look too. I ended up machining a few custom spacers from 1/4" thick aluminum bar stock to allow a solid and flat surface to tighten the Unistrut and screen rails together, and they worked great. 

I stuck around a while after Ryan left and helped Craig move all the Triad speakers back into place, and we measured everything to dial in the imaging perfectly. Acoustically, the speakers sounded as fantastic as I remembered them, and Craig hasn't even felt the need to re-run Audyssey yet. 

I will also say that this new Seymour AV screen with the new 4K fabric and separate 16:9 masking is a very definite upgrade from his previous screen. Even though it is slightly smaller, I think it is sized better for the viewing distance. In combination with his new JVC projector, the image is bright and fantastic - getting very close in performance to a good OLED flat screen display in every way, except the black levels. I am anxious to see how good it can get once Ryan has a chance to calibrate the projector to the new screen. The image when projecting 4k HDR material was amazingly good already!


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## craig john

DMark1 said:


> I agree - The Seaton Submersives are the best sounding, most MUSICALLY accurate subwoofers I have heard yet. They are incredibly deep (down to 10 Hz measured in my room) and very "fast", meaning that I can easily hear both accurate pitch definition and timbre of bass notes. Accurate timbre means that I can easily tell a plucked acoustic upright bass apart from an electric bass, or the musical qualities of a tuba apart from a keyboard bass. When set up properly, there is no excess bass overhang, just great mid-bass punch and deep bass extension all from a single relatively compact subwoofer package.
> 
> I was happy to help install Craig's new screen on Saturday. It is very solidly mounted with Unistrut directly to the ceiling joists and 4 threaded rods down through the ceiling tiles suspending the screen, The whole system will probably hold 1,000 lbs, so its not coming down anytime soon! LOL The final mounting design also resulted in a much "cleaner" look too. I ended up machining a few custom spacers from 1/4" thick aluminum bar stock to allow a solid and flat surface to tighten the Unistrut and screen rails together, and they worked great.
> 
> I stuck around a while after Ryan left and helped Craig move all the Triad speakers back into place, and we measured everything to dial in the imaging perfectly. Acoustically, the speakers sounded as fantastic as I remembered them, and Craig hasn't even felt the need to re-run Audyssey yet.
> 
> I will also say that this new Seymour AV screen with the new 4K fabric and separate 16:9 masking is a very definite upgrade from his previous screen. Even though it is slightly smaller, I think it is sized better for the viewing distance. In combination with his new JVC projector, the image is bright and fantastic - getting very close in performance to a good OLED flat screen display in every way, except the black levels. I am anxious to see how good it can get once Ryan has a chance to calibrate the projector to the new screen. The image when projecting 4k HDR material was amazingly good already!


Thanks for adding your comments Dennis. And for all your help with engineering the mounting system and the installation. It turned out better than I could imagine, and MUCH better than if I had done it myself. 

I agree that the new, smaller screen size is better. Part of the improvement is the screen material, which is brighter than the old CenterStage, (non-XD) material. But I think part of the improvement is the smaller screen. I had calculated viewing angles prior to ordering the screen using the following formulae:






I sit 9.5' or 113" from the screen. Using the formula for a 40 degree, 16:9 Viewing Angle, (VA), = Viewing Distance, (VD), in inches x 0.84, results in a VA of 40 degrees with a 95" 16:9 screen. The diagonal size of my 16:9 image is 93". 

Using the formula for 2.35:1, (VD x 0.95) yields a 107" screen for a 40 degree VA. My 2.35:1 screen is 115" diagonal so I'm closer to a 45 degree viewing angle for my favorite AR. It's completely immersive without being uncomfortable. I think it's actually a better size in my room, at my viewing distance than my old screen, which could cause some head turning and motion symptoms, (especially for my wife). 

I wanted to get the room cleaned up before I reran Audyssey. I'm now ready to run it, and I'll get to it either tomorrow or the weekend. 

Thanks again for all your help! I hope I can return the favor sometime soon when you start your theater! 

Craig


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## Roger Dressler

craig john said:


> I sit 9.5' or 113" from the screen.
> 
> Using the formula for 2.35:1, (VD x 0.95) yields a 107" screen for a 40 degree VA. My 2.35:1 screen is 115" diagonal so I'm closer to a 45 degree viewing angle for my favorite AR.


Using my favorite *Carton Bale calculator*, you are enjoying a 50-deg VA.  

How often do you need to raise the screen? Just wondering if a fixed screen would have worked.


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## craig john

Roger Dressler said:


> Using my favorite *Carton Bale calculator*, you are enjoying a 50-deg VA.


Yes! Thank you! 



Roger Dressler said:


> How often do you need to raise the screen? Just wondering if a fixed screen would have worked.


I sometimes raise the screen when listening to music, and of course when I need to get behind it for cleaning and maintenance or to change subwoofer settings. I considered a fixed screen, but I thought it would look awkward with a screen frame hanging free in the front of the room, and I would have still needed to come up with a mounting system. I also considered a false wall, but it would have meant redoing the entire front of the room, including flooring and the dropped ceiling. In the end, the retractable was the best alternative... for me. 

If I ever "start over" I would do a baffle wall for the speakers and a false wall for the screen, but that's not gonna happen any time soon. 

Craig


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## JMAX2016

DMark1 said:


> I agree - The Seaton Submersives are the best sounding, most MUSICALLY accurate subwoofers I have heard yet. They are incredibly deep (down to 10 Hz measured in my room) and very "fast", meaning that I can easily hear both accurate pitch definition and timbre of bass notes. Accurate timbre means that I can easily tell a plucked acoustic upright bass apart from an electric bass, or the musical qualities of a tuba apart from a keyboard bass. When set up properly, there is no excess bass overhang, just great mid-bass punch and deep bass extension all from a single relatively compact subwoofer package.
> 
> I was happy to help install Craig's new screen on Saturday. It is very solidly mounted with Unistrut directly to the ceiling joists and 4 threaded rods down through the ceiling tiles suspending the screen, The whole system will probably hold 1,000 lbs, so its not coming down anytime soon! LOL The final mounting design also resulted in a much "cleaner" look too. I ended up machining a few custom spacers from 1/4" thick aluminum bar stock to allow a solid and flat surface to tighten the Unistrut and screen rails together, and they worked great.
> 
> I stuck around a while after Ryan left and helped Craig move all the Triad speakers back into place, and we measured everything to dial in the imaging perfectly. Acoustically, the speakers sounded as fantastic as I remembered them, and Craig hasn't even felt the need to re-run Audyssey yet.
> 
> I will also say that this new Seymour AV screen with the new 4K fabric and separate 16:9 masking is a very definite upgrade from his previous screen. Even though it is slightly smaller, I think it is sized better for the viewing distance. In combination with his new JVC projector, the image is bright and fantastic - getting very close in performance to a good OLED flat screen display in every way, except the black levels. I am anxious to see how good it can get once Ryan has a chance to calibrate the projector to the new screen. The image when projecting 4k HDR material was amazingly good already!


You guys should have texted me, I would have came and helped! Next time...


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## craig john

JMAX2016 said:


> You guys should have texted me, I would have came and helped! Next time...


Thanks! I thought about calling you, but I figured 3 guys was the magic number. If you want to help someone, call Ryan. He's in the home stretch of his theater and it will be AWESOME! He may appreciate a second pair of hands...

Craig


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## lawdogx

Nice set-up Craig! I replaced/upgraded all my speakers and subs in the last few years with diy/custom options. The only holdouts are my four RSL c34e atmos speakers. I have them on my list to replace, but every time I listen to them I decide not to, they still sound great and integrate very well with my room. The only time I'm reminded that they're not in the same class as the rest of my system is when I look at trim levels and everything's deep in the minus while these are at +5. 

Those $125 speakers are even more outclassed in your room with those awesome Triads! Are you planning on sticking with them or going in a different direction for atmos?


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## audioguy

lawdogx said:


> Nice set-up Craig! I replaced/upgraded all my speakers and subs in the last few years with diy/custom options. The only holdouts are my four RSL c34e atmos speakers. I have them on my list to replace, but every time I listen to them I decide not to, they still sound great and integrate very well with my room. The only time I'm reminded that they're not in the same class as the rest of my system is when I look at trim levels and everything's deep in the minus while these are at +5.
> 
> Those $125 speakers are even more outclassed in your room with those awesome Triads! Are you planning on sticking with them or going in a different direction for atmos?



I'm not Craig but I, too, use Triad Plats + Triad Silvers (and Triad Bronze) in my room (11.x.10) - and I have 7 of the RSL34E speakers in my ceiling. They are NOT outclassed by the Triads in terms of their function and performance. Yes, they are less efficient but it makes no difference for this application. With my processor, I have the ability to use a "solo" button that instantly mutes every other speaker other than the one I "soloed". The levels that go into the ceiling speakers must be *AT LEAST *10dB to 20dB+ less than what goes into the LCRs. So the fact that they are about 6dB less efficient than my Plats makes zero difference and zero chance of them being over driven. Even if the difference were 10dB vs 6dB, the same still holds. But to give you some comfort if you are still nervous, you can either use a higher crossover and/or (depending on your SSP) a steeper high pass filter at the crossover. There is absolutely no reason to ever consider replacing those speakers other than for "bragging rights" - or because you have money burning a hole in your pocket and can't find anything else to spend it on.


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## craig john

lawdogx said:


> Nice set-up Craig! I replaced/upgraded all my speakers and subs in the last few years with diy/custom options. The only holdouts are my four RSL c34e atmos speakers. I have them on my list to replace, but every time I listen to them I decide not to, they still sound great and integrate very well with my room. The only time I'm reminded that they're not in the same class as the rest of my system is when I look at trim levels and everything's deep in the minus while these are at +5.
> 
> Those $125 speakers are even more outclassed in your room with those awesome Triads! Are you planning on sticking with them or going in a different direction for atmos?





audioguy said:


> I'm not Craig but I, too, use Triad Plats + Triad Silvers (and Triad Bronze) in my room (11.x.10) - and I have 7 of the RSL34E speakers in my ceiling. They are NOT outclassed by the Triads in terms of their function and performance. Yes, they are less efficient but it makes no difference for this application. With my processor, I have the ability to use a "solo" button that instantly mutes every other speaker other than the one I "soloed". The levels that go into the ceiling speakers must be *AT LEAST *10dB to 20dB+ less than what goes into the LCRs. So the fact that they are about 6dB less efficient than my Plats makes zero difference and zero chance of them being over driven. Even if the difference were 10dB vs 6dB, the same still holds. But to give you some comfort if you are still nervous, you can either use a higher crossover and/or (depending on your SSP) a steeper high pass filter at the crossover. There is absolutely no reason to ever consider replacing those speakers other than for "bragging rights" - or because you have money burning a hole in your pocket and can't find anything else to spend it on.


Yup, what he said ^^^!


I will also refer you to a set of measurements I did to demonstrate the requirements for the overhead speakers. They show that deep LF extension and high output are not necessary requirements for Atmos overheads. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-g...g-up-dated-august-2018-a-16.html#post59296984


I am perfectly content with my RSL C34e overhead speakers. Last night I watched the Eagles Farewell 1 Concert in DTS MA with Neural:X processing added. The overheads added a significant ambiance and immersiveness and they never were sounded strained or "unmatched" to my Triad Platinums or Silver Monitors. Besides audioguy, I know another Triad Plat user who also has RSL overheads. He plays his system SIGNIFICANTLY louder than I do. The RSL don't sound strained or distorted in his system either! 



I have no reason or incentive to upgrade my RSL's. They work perfectly for their application.


Craig


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## lawdogx

Thanks @craig john and @audioguy, interesting to see the data backing up what I'm hearing ... I will look elsewhere to scratch the upgade-itis itch


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## audioguy

As a result of reading these last few posts about the viability of the RSL 34E for Atmos use, I re-read (should not have - bad for the heart) the interchange with Terry on his choice to spend close the $30,000 for an Atmos upgrade. And after re-reading it (and the ludicrous responses from both Wolf Hill and Triad) I am so disappointed with Triad. While their products are phenomenal, their integrity clearly is not. They should be ashamed of themselves for taking advantage of Terry as they have. And if I knew of a place to post it, I would blast Wolf Hill. Terry has been a loyal client of theirs for a long time and that they would take such advantage of him borders on criminal. Terry admits over and over again that he is not very knowledgeable on technical matters so he has no choice to be rely on others for his purchase decisions. 

Rant (almost) over. If I were starting today, I would no longer ever consider Triad. As much as I love my system and specifically their speakers, and as many times as I have recommended them to others, that kind of business practice I find totally unacceptable. And as for Wolf Hill, .......

Rant NOW officially over. (and sorry for cluttering up your thread).


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## BP1Fanatic

It is criminal. They ripped him off like an used car dealer.


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## Dan Hitchman

audioguy said:


> As a result of reading these last few posts about the viability of the RSL 34E for Atmos use, I re-read (should not have - bad for the heart) the interchange with Terry on his choice to spend close the $30,000 for an Atmos upgrade. And after re-reading it (and the ludicrous responses from both Wolf Hill and Triad) I am so disappointed with Triad. While their products are phenomenal, their integrity clearly is not. They should be ashamed of themselves for taking advantage of Terry as they have. And if I knew of a place to post it, I would blast Wolf Hill. Terry has been a loyal client of theirs for a long time and that they would take such advantage of him borders on criminal. Terry admits over and over again that he is not very knowledgeable on technical matters so he has no choice to be rely on others for his purchase decisions.
> 
> Rant (almost) over. If I were starting today, I would no longer ever consider Triad. As much as I love my system and specifically their speakers, and as many times as I have recommended them to others, that kind of business practice I find totally unacceptable. And as for Wolf Hill, ....../forum/images/smilies/mad.gif/forum/images/smilies/mad.gif/forum/images/smilies/mad.gif/forum/images/smilies/mad.gif.
> 
> Rant NOW officially over. (and sorry for cluttering up your thread).


Though, sadly, this is what passes for customer service in luxury audio these days. It's not just Wolf Hill (apt name) and Triad. They will take advantage of those with money to burn and little technical skill and/or knowledge to challenge them or ask tough questions. You see this a lot at trade shows with multiple hungry dealers and high end manufacturers too.

That's not an excuse, that's just a fact.

I still like Triad speakers (I own some), but like with anything you have to know what your money is getting you.


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## craig john

audioguy said:


> As a result of reading these last few posts about the viability of the RSL 34E for Atmos use, I re-read (should not have - bad for the heart) the interchange with Terry on his choice to spend close the $30,000 for an Atmos upgrade. And after re-reading it (and the ludicrous responses from both Wolf Hill and Triad) I am so disappointed with Triad. While their products are phenomenal, their integrity clearly is not. They should be ashamed of themselves for taking advantage of Terry as they have. And if I knew of a place to post it, I would blast Wolf Hill. Terry has been a loyal client of theirs for a long time and that they would take such advantage of him borders on criminal. Terry admits over and over again that he is not very knowledgeable on technical matters so he has no choice to be rely on others for his purchase decisions.
> 
> Rant (almost) over. If I were starting today, I would no longer ever consider Triad. As much as I love my system and specifically their speakers, and as many times as I have recommended them to others, that kind of business practice I find totally unacceptable. And as for Wolf Hill, .......
> 
> Rant NOW officially over. (and sorry for cluttering up your thread).


I agree completely! However, I think this customer bears a large share of responsibility also. In the face of all reason, he was more interested in posting pictures of the proposals, even going so far as to show the ones he was rejecting because they didn't cost enough. He was more interested in showing he *could* spend the money than in considering the knowledge and evidence provided to him. In the end, Wolf Hill and Triad simply did what he asked, (as unconscionable as that may have been.)


Personally, I am less favorably inclined toward Triad because they won't provide the most basic of measurements of their speakers. Their insistence on protecting their "secret sauce" and having that outweigh customer service, is beyond the pale. 



If I were starting over, and I wasn't able to see measurements of their speakers, Triad would be off my list. Of course, their business model of selling primarily to CI's is not my preferred plan, so I am not a great match for them anyway. Nonetheless, I am certainly less enamored of their company and business practices than I used to be. (I still like my Plat's though.)



Craig


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## audioguy

^^ When you are finally able to make it down here, I will want you to hear a HT in Atlanta. A calibration client of mine will have 12 Seaton F18's (currently a mere 8 of them), and Wisdom line source speakers all around and, of course, the Trinnov --- AND a fully passively treated room (easily the most important piece of the puzzle). The bad news: it will sound better than your (and my) room. As awesome as vocals are on the Plats, the Wisdom's take it up a notch - or three. And these are by far not the most expensive Wisdom speakers - but pricey nonetheless !!

There is a also a guy who lives 15 minutes from me with what may be the best 2 channel system I have heard. He has Magico + Seaton Subs [2 SubMersives in the rear and two of Mark's dual 18 ported in the front). And a room treatment plan like you have never seen.

As for the guy who WAY over bought for his Atmos setup, I will try and let that drop (at least until such time as I again stumble across a copy of that unbelievable invoice he shared). Not good for my blood pressure.


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## BP1Fanatic

Lol!


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## MIkeDuke

Nice info on the upgrade Craig. I can't wait to see and hear it for myself.


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## BrolicBeast

craig john said:


> If I ever "start over" I would do a baffle wall for the speakers and a false wall for the screen, but that's not gonna happen any time soon.



Keep talking to @audioguy and this might change. You two have been spending each other’s money since at least 2009! 




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> Keep talking to @*audioguy* and this might change. You two have been spending each other’s money since at least 2009!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


 Not sure how I helped him spend his money. What he helped me with was to make a major and most excellent decision on speakers. My change to the Trinnov came from the Trinnov thread. The change to the RS4500 can from the RS4500 thread, etc. You helped me with the Nvidia Shield/Plex choice. All good. I have no more space in my rack for equipment and no more room in the theater for more speakers. The only change I would still like to make is to replace my masking system with one that has acoustically transparent masks and them put my L&R behind the screen. But that is a huge amount of effort and no small amount of money - and that doesn't include the expenses for a divorce attorney !! 

I am still trying to come up with a way to move my L&R speakers a bit more toward the front wall. We have purchased some bar chairs and a (temporary) bar. It is a bit crowded back there so would like to move my seating up but to do that means I have to move the L&R speakers. That will all wait until I figure out the best and least expensive way to do it! Or not do it!!


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Not sure how I helped him spend his money. What he helped me with was to make a major and most excellent decision on speakers. My change to the Trinnov came from the Trinnov thread. The change to the RS4500 can from the RS4500 thread, etc. You helped me with the Nvidia Shield/Plex choice. All good. I have no more space in my rack for equipment and no more room in the theater for more speakers. The only change I would still like to make is to replace my masking system with one that has acoustically transparent masks and them put my L&R behind the screen. But that is a huge amount of effort and no small amount of money - and that doesn't include the expenses for a divorce attorney !!
> 
> I am still trying to come up with a way to move my L&R speakers a bit more toward the front wall. We have purchased some bar chairs and a (temporary) bar. It is a bit crowded back there so would like to move my seating up but to do that means I have to move the L&R speakers. That will all wait until I figure out the best and least expensive way to do it! Or not do it!!


I can help you push those speakers back when I come down there! 

Now that I'm RETIRED we'll make that work soon! 

Craig


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## audioguy

craig john said:


> I can help you push those speakers back when I come down there!
> 
> Now that I'm RETIRED we'll make that work soon!
> 
> Craig



*Mr. Retired:* The actual moving of the speakers is not the issue. There is a door to the left of the screen AND a "fake cosmetic panel door in front of the real door" that opens *into* the room. That will have to be redone in order make it work. Though the fake door is just for aesthetics, I want to figure out the solution before I move the speakers. Once you are here, you will see what I am talking about.


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## craig john

audioguy said:


> *Mr. Retired:* The actual moving of the speakers is not the issue.


I was hoping you would see the "Big Grin" emoji and realize I was joking. 





audioguy said:


> There is a door to the left of the screen AND a "fake cosmetic panel door in front of the real door" that opens *into* the room. That will have to be redone in order make it work. Though the fake door is just for aesthetics, I want to figure out the solution before I move the speakers. Once you are here, you will see what I am talking about.


Is it door #1 :










Or door #2 :









Edit: Just realized you said "to the left of the screen." So it's door #1. That leads to your equipment room, right? 



Can you accommodate a "pocket door"?


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## audioguy

Craig: A sliding "door" could be an alternative. But the REAL door is not the issue so much as the fabric covered frame that swings into the room so that the left and right side of the screen "match" cosmetically.











. 
The image you selected only shows the real door, but as you can see in my attached image, it has the fabric covered frame so that the left and right side of the screen match cosmetically. I will investigate how I might make that a sliding fabric covered frame instead of one that open INTO the room (but with the speaker being moved back, would not be able to).


----------



## craig john

About 10 months ago, I acquired an RS200 projector. I have been extremely please with the pj up to this point. A few months ago, I replaced my 11 year old SeymourAV screen with a new retractable screen, 115" diagonal, 2.25:1 and using the UF AT screen material. I also added side masking for 16:9. I have been very pleased with that result as well. Here's a link to my post about that: craig john's theater

Last week I was fortunate enough to take advantage of the closeout on the Panamorph Paladin Lens, (not the DCR.) Panamorph was closing them out at <50% of original MSRP. At the closeout price of $3k, it was 1/3 the price of a DCR lens, so it seemed like a no-brainer. The Paladin lens requires a 1.6:1 throw ratio and it provides a 33% brightness increase vs. the 38% of the DCR. Yesterday my buddy Ryan, (@reg152 ) stopped over and helped me install it. Ryan has forgotten more about video than I'll ever know. (I help him with audio and he helps me with video. It's a symbiotic relationship that is mutually beneficial. He owns an RS2000, a DCR lens and a Lumagen processor, as well as a full-blown calibrating system. Since he was familiar with lens installation on this projector, he cut the time of installation and optimization by at least 98% over what it would have taken me by myself. (Thanks Ryan!!!) The adjustments included adjusting lens shift in the projector, then moving the lens fore and aft in front of the projector to be able to use the full lens, then moving the lens in the vertical plane to center the image inside the lens to align it to the projector, and finally tilting and rotation of the lens to eliminate pin cushion. He was able to get it almost perfectly aligned, with just a _very_ slight pincushion in the upper right corner, which we fixed with a few pixels of overscan. We used Anamorphic A for 2.35 and Anamorphic B for 16:9.

He also went through my entire video chain and optimized the signal path. I use a rather unconventional signal chain. I have an Oppo 205 which has an HDMI input, and I run my Roku through it to take advantage of it's excellent 4K upscaler. I switch sources via the Oppo, between the Roku for streaming and the Oppo player for shiny discs, (which are my only 2 sources.) (I also use the Oppo's analog subwoofer output to drive my tactile transducer system. This provides a "pure" signal to the transducers with no Audyssey EQ in the chain. It also allows for a separate Distance setting for the transducers than for the subs, which allows synchronizations of tactile with sound, which really improves the "beleiveability" of the transducers. But I digress...)

Ryan used the video processing in the Oppo to add a few ticks of sharpness to the signal. I was already using the upscaling by setting it to "Custom" with a 4K output resolution so we left that alone. Ryan then did a full panel "pixel adjust" on the projector. Red and Blue were both out considerably, and inconsistently, across the panel. Some of the adjustments in certain areas of the screen were in the range of +/- 24 to 28, when the full scale of the adjustments is 31. Suffice it to say the pixel convergence was off by a LOT and re-converging them made the entire image much sharper and better focused. He spent almost an hour reconverging everything and the white lines were much sharper and narrower when he was finished.

The final result was that I now have a "new" projector, fully upgraded from the original. The image is brighter, especially with HDR material. (I should qualify that by saying that the _overall_ image doesn't seem much brighter, but the bright areas seem brighter even though the overall image seems like it's about the same brightness.) It is also much sharper and has more detail and depth than the "old" projector. Blacks seem "richer", like there is more shadow detail due to the increased sharpness. The 3-dimensional depth of the image is greatly improved. 4K HDR with Scene-by-Scene DTM is absolutely stunning, the best image I've ever seen! 1080P Bluray and streaming in SDR with the "Natural" setting and upscaled through the Oppo is very, very close to the 4K image. 16:9 images with Anamorphic B and the side masking are also greatly improved.

When I first got this projector, I thought it was stunning right OOTB. After the screen upgrade and the installation of the lens and Ryan's tweaks to the system, the image is now simply jaw-dropping. And it's not even calibrated for grayscale and color yet. We didn't have time to do that yesterday. However, with this "new" image, I'm in no hurry to get the calibration done. I could live with this image for a very long time and not feel like I needed an upgrade of any kind.

Thanks JVC, SeymourAV, Oppo, Panamorph and especially Ryan!!!

Craig


----------



## audioguy

Craig: You now have one heck of display system. I also have the Paladin because with my projector, the DCR would not work without a Lumagen and I had no intention of acquiring one (sound familiar?). With the HDR tone mapping in your projector and that Panamorph, that is about as good as it gets for your screen size - short of spending $300,000 for a Christie.

Congrats!!


----------



## craig john

audioguy said:


> Craig: You now have one heck of display system. I also have the Paladin because with my projector, the DCR would not work without a Lumagen and I had no intention of acquiring one (sound familiar?). With the HDR tone mapping in your projector and that Panamorph, that is about as good as it gets for your screen size - short of spending $300,000 for a Christie.
> 
> Congrats!!


Thanks Chuck! I forgot to mention that I also repainted the room in a very dark charcoal flat black. The lower reflectivity has reduced ambient light spill back onto the screen, improving contrast even more. The room is now so dark that pretty much all you see is the image hanging in space. Each of these things was an incremental improvement on it's own, but taken as a whole, the result is absolutely stunning. 

My friend @reg152 is building a 16 seat, 3-row HT with a 150" screen. He'll be using an RS2000 with a DCR lens. I've seen the preliminary image on his screen and, the lens adds significantly to the brightness. Before any tweaking or calibrations, it is really incredible. That impressively large screen takes it to the next level. I can't wait to see it in all it's glory after the room is finished and he's had a chance to really dial it in. 

I wish this Covid thing would go away so I can travel down to Georgia to check out your place again. 

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> I wish this Covid thing would go away so I can travel down to Georgia to check out your place again.
> 
> Craig


No indication of that happening any time soon. As you can see from the attached, if there is any downward trend in Georgia (red line added by me), it is very minor/slow. And unless I am tied down and gagged, I won't be one of the first to take any kind of vaccine - particularly the one that Bill Gates is trying to rush to market. 










And at the risk of turning this to a political statement/argument (certainly not my intent), it appears that the death rates in Georgia as a percent of the population are pretty much in line (but slightly less) than the total US numbers. Our numbers (Green County) are skewed a bit because many of our inititial and on-going deaths occurred in the equivalent of Nursing Care Facilities.

I do not mean to diminsh the serious danger of this virus, particularly to folks my age or others with various medical complications. But it is just difficult for me to comprehend what we have done to our economy, our emotional well-being; small and large businesses, etc for something that has a death rate affecting 4 people out of 10,000. 

Sorry for this OT rant. I'm just very frustrated!!


----------



## craig john

This is totally off-topic for AVS, but this is my thread so I'm posting it here...

I saw my ENT surgeon for my 5th year annual check up following my throat cancer surgery. My scans were negative and the the Doc declared that, 5 years out, I'm CURED! 😁

My wife made me pecan pie with ice cream to celebrate! 👩‍❤️‍👨

Craig


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> This is totally off-topic for AVS, but this is my thread so I'm posting it here...
> 
> I saw my ENT surgeon for my 5th year annual check up following my throat cancer surgery. My scans were negative and the the Doc declared that, 5 years out, I'm CURED! 😁
> 
> My wife made me pecan pie with ice cream to celebrate! 👩‍❤️‍👨
> 
> Craig


The words "cured" and "cancer'' are not normally used in the same sentence. So congrats. That is just great news. I am very happy for you, your bride and your children. 

New topic: Your eventual trip to New Zealand will be one you will remember. LOVED that place but only visited the South Island. If I were doing it again, I would make it a 3 week vacation and see it all. Such a beautiful country - and so many sheep !!!

If you do decide to plan the trip, you will want to talk to my wife. She planned the trip and can tell you where we went, etc.

And again, congratulations on the good news medical report !!!


----------



## BP1Fanatic

Congratulations!


----------



## garygreyh

craig john said:


> This is totally off-topic for AVS, but this is my thread so I'm posting it here...
> 
> I saw my ENT surgeon for my 5th year annual check up following my throat cancer surgery. My scans were negative and the the Doc declared that, 5 years out, I'm CURED! 😁
> 
> My wife made me pecan pie with ice cream to celebrate! 👩‍❤️‍👨
> 
> Craig


Great news Craig! So glad to hear it. A good friend of mine had cancerous lymph nodes removed today. Hoping for his successful recovery as well. Eat all the pie and ice cream!


----------



## tigerhonaker

craig john said:


> This is totally off-topic for AVS, but this is my thread so I'm posting it here...
> 
> I saw my ENT surgeon for my 5th year annual check up following my throat cancer surgery.
> My scans were negative and the the Doc declared that, 5 years out, I'm CURED! 😁
> 
> My wife made me pecan pie with ice cream to celebrate! 👩‍❤️‍👨
> 
> Craig


Craig,

We do have a difference of opinions on HT topics at times but ...........


> I saw my ENT surgeon for my 5th year annual check up following my throat cancer surgery.
> My scans were negative and the the Doc declared that, 5 years out, I'm CURED!


*I would like to offer my "*Congratulations*" to you.* 🏆


Terry


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## Dan Hitchman

Fantastic health news! There is so much celebrating to do. Hop to it. 😁


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## craig john

audioguy said:


> The words "cured" and "cancer'' are not normally used in the same sentence. So congrats. That is just great news. I am very happy for you, your bride and your children.
> 
> New topic: Your eventual trip to New Zealand will be one you will remember. LOVED that place but only visited the South Island. If I were doing it again, I would make it a 3 week vacation and see it all. Such a beautiful country - and so many sheep !!!
> 
> If you do decide to plan the trip, you will want to talk to my wife. She planned the trip and can tell you where we went, etc.
> 
> And again, congratulations on the good news medical report !!!


Thanks Chuck! We'll definitely talk to you and your wife about the NZ visit when we visit your place! 😃 

Craig


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## craig john

garygreyh said:


> Great news Craig! So glad to hear it. A good friend of mine had cancerous lymph nodes removed today. Hoping for his successful recovery as well. Eat all the pie and ice cream!


Thank you sir, and here is to a full and speedy recovery for your friend! Finished the pie tonight! 😊

Craig


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## craig john

tigerhonaker said:


> Craig,
> 
> We do have a difference of opinions on HT topics at times but ...........
> 
> *I would like to offer my "*Congratulations*" to you.* 🏆
> 
> 
> Terry


Thank you Terry! I don't think we disagree all that much about HT topics. It's more like a difference of priorities. I'm as much a fan of overkill as you! 😁

Craig


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## craig john

Dan Hitchman said:


> Fantastic health news! There is so much celebrating to do. Hop to it. 😁


Thank you Dan! To celebrate, we spent the day taking our granddaughter on a hike to Pine Grove State Park. The water was freezing but she couldn't help getting her feet wet:









(daughter on the left, granddaughter on the right.)

Craig


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## audioguy

craig john said:


> *I'm as much a fan of overkill as you!* 😁
> 
> Craig/QUOTE]
> 
> Then you need to buy my 6 Silver and 3 Platinums and do your room up right!! (or not)


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## craig john

audioguy said:


> Then you need to buy my 6 Silver and 3 Platinums and do your room up right!! (or not)


I don't need the Plat's, but I'm gonna be talking to you about the Silvers Monitors.


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## DMark1

Great news, Craig! We should get the group together soon to celebrate!


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## tigerhonaker

craig john said:


> Thank you Terry! I don't think we disagree all that much about HT topics. It's more like a difference of priorities. I'm as much a fan of overkill as you! 😁
> 
> Craig


Hey Craig,

I might have never posted this I actually don't recall now if I did or not on the Atmos/Triad portion of my 2020 HT changes/up-dates.
I spent the money and have no-regrets and part of the reason I did things the way I did.
Was simply because once the HT for 2020 was completed I wanted things to get back to 100% normal for Cathy & I to enjoy it not have it worked on.
So, I did it so that I knew later I would have no-regrets about and would never-ever question or think maybe I should have done this or that with the Atmos.
Once the money was spent I knew in our case we could recover from all the HT expenditures fairly quickly and hopefully not have to possibly readdress any portion of that HT project.

Peace my brother and stay-healthy,
Terry


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## MIkeDuke

As I said in my email (I think I said it), great news on your check up. And I am sure your system looks and sounds better then I remember. It is a killer setup. 
The Triads are really fantastic speakers. I can't wait to come up and check it out. I do wish you could use your wide speakers when you use Atmos. It sounds
like you can't? Maybe there is an add on piece of gear you ca get that would allow you to do that? Anyway, no matter how you listen, I am sur it sounds awesome.
And thanks for your thoughts in my thread. Can't wait to check out your system. I don't know what you have in mind for Chuck's silvers. But I am sure it's great.

P.S Your grand daughter is so cute.


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## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> As I said in my email (I think I said it), great news on your check up. And I am sure your system looks and sounds better then I remember. It is a killer setup.
> The Triads are really fantastic speakers. I can't wait to come up and check it out. I do wish you could use your wide speakers when you use Atmos. It sounds
> like you can't? Maybe there is an add on piece of gear you ca get that would allow you to do that? Anyway, no matter how you listen, I am sur it sounds awesome.
> And thanks for your thoughts in my thread. Can't wait to check out your system. I don't know what you have in mind for Chuck's silvers. But I am sure it's great.
> 
> P.S Your grand daughter is so cute.


Hi Mike,

Marantz and Dolby recently released a firmware update for my pre/pro that enabled the Wides on DSU. It also enabled DTS:X Pro, which enabled the Wides for DTS material. So Wides are now active for all my content. (Unfortunately Dolby screwed up the 2-channel upmxing for DSU, so now I'm waiting for a firmware update to fix THAT problem. In the meantime, I'm using DTS:X Pro to upmix 2-channel content, but that is not as good an upmixer as DSU, IMO).


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## MIkeDuke

So this is the part I was talking about. It's from your first page
"Unfortunately, I can't use my Wides much any more. The new Marantz 8805 pre/pro doesn't have DTS Neo X, or Audyssey DSX or Dolby Prologic IIx either. Atmos only uses the Wides when the content is native Atmos. The DSU upmixer doesn't use them at all. DTS:X only uses them with native DTS:X content, (and there is very little of that available.) The DTS Nueral:X upmixer only uses the Wides when I turn off the rear surrounds off."

So now you can use your wides for non-Atmos and non-DTS:X content. For movies you can use all your speakers. How many speakers do you right now.


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## craig john

The current system is 9.3.4. (LCR + Wides + Sides + Rears= 9) + (3 subs = .3) + (Front and Rear Overheads = .4) 

Yeah, I miss PLIIx and DTS Neo X, ...Audyssey DSX not so much. I can now up mix everything to use all my speakers, but DSU does a SH##y job of upmixing 2 channel. I use the DTS:X upmixer for that, until Dolby/Marantz release the firmware to fix the problem, (siad to be Fall '21.)

I posted a bunch of new pics in my first post of the Atmos upgrade, and pics of my new screen and some screenshots here: 
(Scroll down for pics and screenshots)








craig john's theater


Craig, Have you considered changing out your Marantz pre-pro with a different one? If you get a processor with even a slightly higher channel count, you can have your front wides as well as all the other speakers active. Just make sure that the unit can be upgraded to DTS: X Pro whenever...




www.avsforum.com





Craig


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## audioguy

craig john said:


> The current system is 9.3.4. (LCR + Wides + Sides + Rears= 9) + (3 subs = .3) + (Front and Rear Overheads = .4)
> 
> Yeah, I miss PLIIx and DTS Neo X, ...Audyssey DSX not so much. I can now up mix everything to use all my speakers, but DSU does a SH##y job of upmixing 2 channel. I use the DTS:X upmixer for that, until Dolby/Marantz release the firmware to fix the problem, (siad to be Fall '21.)


Does your processor have Auro? And if so, does it have a way to make any adjustments within Auro. The "go to"up-mixer for 2 channel for folks with either a Datasat or Trinnov is Auro because of the adjustability of Auro. Should you decide to give that a go, you will need to make some adjustments so the bass does not overwhelm. For every non L&R speaker, you turn off bass management, but then create a target curve that will act as a high pass filter on all of those non L&R channels. If your version of Auro does not allow you to make some other adjustments, it may still not be to your liking, as the levels of the non L&R channels can be too strong. Which I guess you could deal with by adjusting their levels individually. Call me if you want to discuss further.


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## craig john

I do have Auro, both 2D and 3D, and I have tried them both, but I've been underwhelmed by the results. Auro 2D is base-layer only, and doesn't use the Height layer speakers. Auro 3D uses Height layer speakers, but it has just has never sounded "right" to me. I always chalked it up to having my speakers in the "Atmos-positions", which are the wrong positions for Auro. In fact, when I assign the speakers as Atmos "Tops" instead of "Heights", the ability to select Auro 3D goes away, and I can only select Auro 2D. I would need to re-assign the speakers as Heights to make the speakers work for Auro 3D, but with them actually being in the Tops positions, I'm not sure it will work right anyway. 

I don't know if you remember, but when you were here, you commented several times that the front soundstage in my room seemed to image "higher" than the speakers. Voices and other front soundstage sounds came from "above" the speakers. And that was long before I added Atmos. In any event, I'm not sure adding front Height speakers above my front 3 will raise the imaging from the front soundstage, or broaden it to a "taller" ambiance. I would be interested in your thoughts on that.

I would like to try your suggestions, but I think I would need to add another set of Height speakers in different positions to make it work properly. Also, I can only load one Audyssey EQ/calibration at a time. I can save several more outside the pre/pro on a tablet, but it takes about 5 minutes to upload a new one, and then a few more minutes to enter the new speakers assignments, calibrations, and BM settings. Then I would need to repeat the process to go back to mu Audyssey settings. 

If you tell me that Auro is worth the effort, and that I don't need to add anymore speakers, (or move the ones I have), I will certainly consider making the effort.) Otherwise, I'll wait to hear it at your place before going any further. 

Craig


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## audioguy

craig john said:


> I do have Auro, both 2D and 3D, and I have tried them both, but I've been underwhelmed by the results. Auro 2D is base-layer only, and doesn't use the Height layer speakers. Auro 3D uses Height layer speakers, but it has just has never sounded "right" to me. I always chalked it up to having my speakers in the "Atmos-positions", which are the wrong positions for Auro. In fact, when I assign the speakers as Atmos "Tops" instead of "Heights", the ability to select Auro 3D goes away, and I can only select Auro 2D. I would need to re-assign the speakers as Heights to make the speakers work for Auro 3D, but with them actually being in the Tops positions, I'm not sure it will work right anyway.
> 
> I don't know if you remember, but when you were here, you commented several times that the front soundstage in my room seemed to image "higher" than the speakers. Voices and other front soundstage sounds came from "above" the speakers. And that was long before I added Atmos. In any event, I'm not sure adding front Height speakers above my front 3 will raise the imaging from the front soundstage, or broaden it to a "taller" ambiance. I would be interested in your thoughts on that.
> 
> I would like to try your suggestions, but I think I would need to add another set of Height speakers in different positions to make it work properly. Also, I can only load one Audyssey EQ/calibration at a time. I can save several more outside the pre/pro on a tablet, but it takes about 5 minutes to upload a new one, and then a few more minutes to enter the new speakers assignments, calibrations, and BM settings. Then I would need to repeat the process to go back to mu Audyssey settings.
> 
> If you tell me that Auro is worth the effort, and that I don't need to add anymore speakers, (or move the ones I have), I will certainly consider making the effort.) Otherwise, I'll wait to hear it at your place before going any further.
> 
> Craig


Given your room size, and my personal experience, I would not recommend you use front tops over your LCRs.

And when you get here, listening to Auro upsampling of 2 channel music may still not be your deal. We all have personal preferences. Others like pure 2 channel, others use DTS or Dolby or ??? But at least you can hear what I hear (or soon will here hopefully!!)


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## craig john

Are you using your Atmos speakers for Auro?


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## audioguy

craig john said:


> Are you using your Atmos speakers for Auro?


Yes. The Trinnov has 3D remapping but I've never tried it for music. When I get my system back together, I will give it a try.


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## craig john

The Marantz AV8805 doesn't have 3D remapping. It can set "Levels" and "Distances" but Distance is just a delay setting. What else does the Trinnov do when remapping other than change levels and delays?


----------



## audioguy

craig john said:


> The Marantz AV8805 doesn't have 3D remapping. It can set "Levels" and "Distances" but Distance is just a delay setting. What else does the Trinnov do when remapping other than change levels and delays?


Because of the 3D mic, it knows, in all 3 dimensions, where your speakers are. Remapping uses the two or three speakers closest to the intended location of a sound to create a phantom image of the sound coming from the correct direction. Among other things, Remapping serves as a bit of a “Universal Translator” between the various audio formats.


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## BP1Fanatic

I want to thank you fellas for fixing my Neural X! After reading that link about Dolby blocking 3rd party upscaling, I went into my settings and saw my Neural X was off. Once I switching the sound field to A.F.D., I was able to turn the Neural X. The 2 channel upscaling is off the hook now!


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## MIkeDuke

I just went back to the first page again Craig. Was that 115db at 10hz cleanly that I read? Wow. Incredible. I think my room is a room that has a "perceived" sound that is louder than the "actual" sound. I ran a few tests with my new SPL meter, and while it sounded loud, it hardly got above 100db. Strange I know. But I hope to experience your new setup at some point. And maybe you can come back and just check out mine again. But if yours is better than what I heard and saw last time, it will be one of the best HT I have ever experienced, which it already was .


----------



## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> I just went back to the first page again Craig. Was that 115db at 10hz cleanly that I read? Wow. Incredible. I think my room is a room that has a "perceived" sound that is louder than the "actual" sound. I ran a few tests with my new SPL meter, and while it sounded loud, it hardly got above 100db. Strange I know. But I hope to experience your new setup at some point. And maybe you can come back and just check out mine again. But if yours is better than what I heard and saw last time, it will be one of the best HT I have ever experienced, which it already was .


Hi Mike,

It's weird that I never got a notification of this post!?!. Yes, that graph is shows the max output with no compression of 3 Submersives in my room. 115 dB at 10 Hz is indeed correct.










However, you should realize that the output below about 40 Hz is mainly due to "room gain" in my room. Here's a graph that shows the native response of the subs with my graph right below it. I edited the graphs so the x-axis scales line up:










You can see that the native response of sub itself tapers off below 40 Hz in the blue outdoor ground plane measurment, but in my room, that SPL all comes back, primarily due to room gain. In addition, I am using Pgm 2 to increase the output below 40 tapering up to +3 dB at 18 Hz, and I've used a target curve manipulation in the Audyssey App to add a little more at those frequencies. All in all, the rising response of my subs below 80 Hz is a great final result, and I like it a lot. 

Also, above 80 Hz, my response tapers a lot more than the native response of the sub due to the 80 Hz crossover reducing that output. 

Even with 115 dB at 10 Hz, I can't really "hear" a 10 Hz note... but I can _feel_ it!  

You may find these graphs particularly interesting because you have the same sub, and a smaller, more tightly sealed room, which would increase the room gain you get substantially. I don't think your pre/pro is one of the ones that can use the Audyssey App, but I'm pretty sure we engaged Pgm 2 when I was there last. Still we've never measured a max output/compression test, so we don't know what your max SPL is before compression sets in, although I'm fairly certain it's higher than 100 dB. I doubt we can even do it when the other occupants of your home are there, and we would definitely need to secure all the "loose" articles throughout your home to be able to do it. We don't want to damage anything! 🤭😉

I do need to get you out here to hear my system again. Let's try to set that up in the not too distant future.

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

I do need to hear and see your system. Thanks for the explanation. But, I hate to say it, I think I need another check up. I am just not sure everything is fine. Again, I have hit the idea of perceived volume and realized volume level. 

For instance, I watched 4k WOTW. The part were the truck hits the house did not even register 100db. The Crowson was shaking but not like it should, I think.
I watched TENET. That was a rockin movie but I did not do any measurements of that. So, if you would not mind, after I see and hear your system, you can
maybe swing down and we can watch a movie first, then if there is time, we can do some measurements. I mean I have to turn it up to -15db just to get the
dialog loud enough for my folks sometime. I mean, we blew the crowson before at those levels. Now, I just don't know. I mean, I remember when I would never
dream of -15. Now, that seems to be the norm. I just don't understand. Anyway, when you come down here, you can judge for yourself. Maybe I am just imaging,

But we are here to talk about your HT. If I could, I would nominate it for HToTM. And that's before I even heard it. 
Your theater is a probably one of the best out there. Probably no comprises at all. Mine, it may sound good but
comprises all over the place. Although, Snatch 4k did sound pretty awesome .

P.S Do you think I should think about upgrading the crowson to a a newer one? Or get two for one chair?
Sorry for taking up your thread with questions about my theater.


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## craig john

MIkeDuke said:


> I do need to hear and see your system. Thanks for the explanation. But, I hate to say it, I think I need another check up. I am just not sure everything is fine. Again, I have hit the idea of perceived volume and realized volume level.
> 
> For instance, I watched 4k WOTW. The part were the truck hits the house did not even register 100db. The Crowson was shaking but not like it should, I think.
> I watched TENET. That was a rockin movie but I did not do any measurements of that. So, if you would not mind, after I see and hear your system, you can
> maybe swing down and we can watch a movie first, then if there is time, we can do some measurements. I mean I have to turn it up to -15db just to get the
> dialog loud enough for my folks sometime. I mean, we blew the crowson before at those levels. Now, I just don't know. I mean, I remember when I would never
> dream of -15. Now, that seems to be the norm. I just don't understand. Anyway, when you come down here, you can judge for yourself. Maybe I am just imaging,
> 
> But we are here to talk about your HT. If I could, I would nominate it for HToTM. And that's before I even heard it.
> Your theater is a probably one of the best out there. Probably no comprises at all. Mine, it may sound good but
> comprises all over the place. Although, Snatch 4k did sound pretty awesome .
> 
> P.S Do you think I should think about upgrading the crowson to a a newer one? Or get two for one chair?
> Sorry for taking up your thread with questions about my theater.


It's hard to comment on any of this without hearing your system. Let's set up a time for a visit. With a few days notice, I can make most weekdays work if that works for you. Weekends seem to be taken up with grandkids. 

Craig


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## MIkeDuke

Understood. If it were to happen, it would most likely be a Fri. Does that mean if I were to visit you, you would want it during the week also?
I would have to take that day off. That's why I like Sat's because no work and I can stay later. But I understand that Grandkids come
first. Let me think about it. I may just leave it the way it is, because it does not sound bad. We shall see.
Thanks .


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## audioguy

Merry Christmas everyone - and remember the reason for the season!!


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## newoski

Hi Craig,

How far do you sit from your 2:35:1 120" screen?

Thanks!


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## craig john

9 - 9.5' from my 115" 2.35:1 screen. It changes a little depending on whether my seat is upright or reclined.


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## newoski

craig john said:


> 9 - 9.5' from my 115" 2.35:1 screen. It changes a little depending on whether my seat is upright or reclined.


Thanks! So that's relatively the same as a 120" 16:9, correct? Why didn't you just go with the 16:9? I'm genuinely asking. This point has me perpetually confused. You'd have the same immersion on scope content, but then get the vertical increase on 16:9 content...


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## craig john

newoski said:


> Thanks! So that's relatively the same as a 120" 16:9, correct? Why didn't you just go with the 16:9? I'm genuinely asking. This point has me perpetually confused. You'd have the same immersion on scope content, but then get the vertical increase on 16:9 content...


At one point I had a 120" 16*9 screen. Every member of my family complained it was too big. My wife refused to watch it because it made her dizzy. Even the kids thought it was overwhelming.

I love my current screen at 115", 2.35:1 and side masking for 16*9. I'm sure many forum members would say my 16:9 image is too small, but we mostly use it for TV viewing and it's fine for that. And my wife will watch with me. 😀

Craig


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## Cam Man

@craig john , I've somehow missed your thread over the years. Very nice room! I particularly like seeing someone with the Triad Platinums. I'm a big fan of that general design, and have just retrofitted my room with the smaller cousin, the Inroom Gold THX LCR. Retrofitted with a retro speaker. lol I run them with MBMs and VLMs so they have a fair amount of the performance of your Platinums. You can see the install and description in post 47 and 48 on my config thread. Cam Man's Media Great Room I probably missed it somewhere, but what is the throw to your MLP or row? Cheers.


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## craig john

Today, I rearranged some stuff and added some new stuff to my first post to update it to the most recent configuration. 

Craig


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## mhrischuk

Craig... a lot has changed since I visited years ago. Moved to Texas last year. Sold the Vette before the move. I will never forget your hospitality and sitting there immersed in the sound and visuals even then. Looking good. The stuff hasn't really changed alot except for atmos since then. Good seeing you post and hope all is well.


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## craig john

mhrischuk said:


> Craig... a lot has changed since I visited years ago. Moved to Texas last year. Sold the Vette before the move. I will never forget your hospitality and sitting there immersed in the sound and visuals even then. Looking good. The stuff hasn't really changed alot except for atmos since then. Good seeing you post and hope all is well.


I remember the adrenaline rush when riding in that incredible Corvette! That was a fun day! Thanks for the kind words about my system. 

I hope you're enjoying the move to TX and I hope all is well with you too! Thanks for checking into the thread! 

Craig

PS. I just checked your thread. It hasn't been updated since the move. What are you rockin' these days?


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## BP1Fanatic

Geez, I graduated from high school and went to BGSU in 1987!


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## craig john

BP1Fanatic said:


> Geez, I graduated from high school and went to BGSU in 1987!


😁

I graduated HS in 1972, so I guess I'm about 15 years older than you. By 1987, I was already out of school, had 3 kids, and was well into my career in healthcare. 

Craig


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## BP1Fanatic

I got 5 more years until I get full medical. Just celebrated 30 years in the healthcare industry in June.


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