# 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a will be possible in 2012



## Richard Paul


Here is some basic information and a short FAQ with information current as of September 22, 2012.


There are several "frame compatible" 3D methods such as "side-by-side" and "top-and-bottom". These 3D methods are simple to send and store since they fit the video for both eyes into a single video frame but that means they only offer half resolution per eye 3D video. The highest quality 3D video is full resolution per eye 3D video. There are several different terms used for full resolution per eye 3D video at 1080p60 with the HDMI organization using the term "1080p60 Frame Packing", AMD using the term "1080p60 Stereoscopic 3D", and through most of the thread I use the term "1080p60 per eye 3D video".


When the HDMI 1.4a specification was released on March 4, 2010 it required that 3D HDMI devices support mandatory 3D formats (such as 1080p24) which can be seen in this HDMI press release . 1080p60 Frame Packing was optional and it wasn't until May 2011 that a company announced 300 MHz HDMI chips capable of it. The technical details can be found in this thread and in this post on 297 MHz bandwidth . As such products that support 1080p60 Frame Packing ( or 2160p30 ) require HDMI chips that are capable of 297 MHz bandwidth. 300 MHz HDMI chips are also called 3 GHz HDMI chips. Both numbers are technically correct since it depends on whether you measure the clock rate or the raw data rate.


The first consumer product capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing was the AMD HD Radeon 7970 which was released on January 9, 2012. This was followed by several additional AMD cards so that on March 19, 2012 there were a total of six AMD cards ranging from $109 to $549 MSRP that were capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing. On March 22, 2012 the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 was released which based on current information is most likely capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing. Several additional NVIDIA cards have been released since than and had their HDMI output tested at 4K resolution which proves that they use 300 MHz HDMI chips.


*FAQ*


Should I be concerned about 1080p60 per eye 3D video?


A HTPC can be capable of it today and for game consoles this will likely be an issue within 3 years. For major Hollywood movies though it depends if future movies are made at 60 fps 3D.



Are there any Hollywood movies that would benefit from 1080p60 Frame Packing?


No, and that even applies to Hollywood movies currently in production since The Hobbit movies are being made at 48 fps 3D. James Cameron has said that he personally prefers 60 fps over 48 fps but even if he uses 60 fps 3D for Avatar 2 it is years away from being released.



Will AV receivers from 2011 or earlier support 1080p60 Frame Packing?


No, and only AV receivers that are capable of input, switching, and output of a 1080p60 Frame Packing signal will be able to support it. The only exception to this might be modular AV receivers that use add-in modules for HDMI switching.



Do current High Speed HDMI cables work with 1080p60 Frame Packing?


Yes, and High Speed HDMI cables are tested at 340 MHz which is even higher than the 297 MHz bandwidth needed for 1080p60 Frame Packing.



What consumer products are currently capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing?
AMD Radeon HD 7700 series
AMD Radeon HD 7700M series
AMD Radeon HD 7800 series
AMD Radeon HD 7800M series
AMD Radeon HD 7900 series
AMD Radeon HD 7900M series
NVIDIA GeForce GT 640 (likely based on 4K support)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 series (likely based on 4K support)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 series (likely based on 4K support)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 670 (likely based on 4K support)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 (likely based on 4K support)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 690 (likely based on 4K support)
Yamaha RX-V373 (likely based on 4K support)
Yamaha RX-V473 (likely based on 4K support)
Yamaha RX-V573 (likely based on 4K support)



*Original Post*


Silicon Image recently announced in a press release that HDMI chips with a bandwidth of 300 MHz are currently sampling (which means that the mass production of them will begin later this year). As explained in this thread to send a 1080p60 per eye 3D signal requires a bandwidth of 297 MHz. As such CE products that support 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a will be possible in 2012.


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## Lee Stewart

What 3D source is going to use 1080x60P per eye?


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## Richard Paul

 Here is a link to one of the 300 MHz HDMI 1.4a chips.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20573817
> 
> 
> What 3D source is going to use 1080x60P per eye?



The only current source would be a HTPC . Within 3 years though I think it is likely that 1080p60 per eye video will be possible on one or more future game consoles. As for 3D TV channels I wouldn't even guess at when it might happen but I did find a press release from ESPN that shows that they are considering it.


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## GregK




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20573817
> 
> 
> What 3D source is going to use 1080x60P per eye?



Aside from games, Avatar II will be shot in 48 or 60 fps. The Hobbit will be in 48fps. However, current Bluray max specs are still limted to 1080 24p, or 1080 60i.


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregK* /forum/post/20574466
> 
> 
> Aside from games, Avatar II will be shot in 48 or 60 fps. The Hobbit will be in 48fps. However, current Bluray max specs are still limted to 1080 24p, or 1080 60i.



You think the BDA is going to change the specs of 3D BD for a couple of specially made 3D movies? If it was an industry change I would agree, but it isn't.


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/20574426
> 
> Here is a link to one of the 300 MHz HDMI 1.4a chips.
> 
> 
> The only current source would be a HTPC . Within 3 years though I think it is likely that 1080p60 per eye video will be possible on one or more future game consoles. As for 3D TV channels I wouldn't even guess at when it might happen but I did find a press release from ESPN that shows that they are considering it.



HTPC - OK. I can see that.


I don't see 1080x60P 3D in that presser. I do see 1080x60P HD and 3D though. I know a while ago, they did an upgrade that allows them to work with 1080x60P HD.


3D by "OTA" is Frame Compatible - the bandwidth of a single HD channel. Who is going to give up the required bandwidth to use Frame Packing at 1080x60P. DirecTV is already using MEPG4.


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## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20575229
> 
> 
> I don't see 1080x60P 3D in that presser. I do see 1080x60P HD and 3D though.



Here are some statements from the the ESPN press release :



> Quote:
> As both ESPN and ESPN-2 transition to all MPEG-4 HD over the next several years, Motorola's system will distribute full resolution HD programming while simultaneously providing legacy MPEG-2 HD and SD services to ESPN affiliate operators, all without requiring additional satellite bandwidth.
> 
> ...
> 
> As part of the migration, all ESPN and ESPN-2 programming will be processed with Motorola's SE-6601A high definition MPEG-4 AVC encoder capable of 1080p60 and 3D encoding.
> 
> ...
> 
> At the downlink sites, the content will be received and processed with Motorola's DSR-6100, which receives MPEG-4 720p60 or 1080p60 video (including 3D), and then transcodes to MPEG-2 HD, SD and/or analog NTSC to support whatever video infrastructure the service provider has in place.



Whether the system can handle full resolution 3D video though would depend on whether the statement on "full resolution HD programming" applies to 3D video.


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/20575538
> 
> 
> Here are some statements from the the ESPN press release :
> 
> 
> Whether the system can handle full resolution 3D video though would depend on whether the statement on "full resolution HD programming" applies to 3D video.


*1080p / 60 fps production confirmed for ESPN's new L.A. studio*

May 5th 2009

http://hd.engadget.com/2009/05/05/10...ew-l-a-studio/


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## GregK




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20575197
> 
> 
> You think the BDA is going to change the specs of 3D BD for a couple of specially made 3D movies? If it was an industry change I would agree, but it isn't.



Lee- I merely mentioned that upcoming "over 24p" sources that will be high profile titles are being made, in responce to your original question. And then noted that the current Bluray spec only allows for 1080 at 24p or 60i, for those who might be interested.


If there's a demand to see these in full 1080p 3D HD with "above 24p" frame rates, I'm sure someone will devise a delivery and/or download format to do so, .."whatever" it may be.


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregK* /forum/post/20579281
> 
> 
> Lee- I merely mentioned that upcoming "over 24p" sources that will be high profile titles are being made, in responce to your original question. And then noted that the current Bluray spec only allows for 1080 at 24p or 60i, for those who might be interested.
> 
> 
> If there's a demand to see these in full 1080p 3D HD with "above 24p" frame rates, I'm sure someone will devise a delivery and/or download format to do so, .."whatever" it may be.



Sure - like the IMAX footage on The Dark Knight BD


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## DanielJoy

its about time. these current HDMI 1.4 sets are such a disappointment to me. now if they could eliminate the crosstalk to at least DLP levels- then we would have something worth buying.


im keeping my fingers crossed that i see a DLP projector or RP TV with these chips. Maybe one of those new LED laser DLP projector at 1080p60 3d! that would be amazing!


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## Exposed

So for those of us that already purchased expensive 3DTV's, we'd need to buy new expensive 3DTV's?


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## obveron

Yes, and likely new AVRs too... again. Don't worry the tech will need to exist for at least a few years before consumers will get their hands on it.


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## BlackShark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Exposed* /forum/post/20626782
> 
> 
> So for those of us that already purchased expensive 3DTV's, we'd need to buy new expensive 3DTV's?



Yes of course !

A new TV, a new BluRay "3D plus" certified player that can handle MVC at 60fps, and also a new AVR that can handle the extra bandwidth.


Concerning backwards compatibility, MVC is not designed just for stereoscopic content, it is designed to hold any number of multi-views, so I believe MVC is flexible enough to allow both the 24fps movie and the missing frames to coexist on the same disc, there will be 3 dependent views instead of one with current BluRay 3D :

-main Left @ 24fps,

-dependent Right @ 24fps (just like current BluRay 3D)

-dependent extra frames Left @ 24fps

-dependent extra frames Right @ 24fps


So if you read such a disc in your current player on your current TV, the BlRay disc association should be able to standardize it in such a way that it's backwards compatible with 24fps limited equipment.


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## DanielJoy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BlackShark* /forum/post/20626844
> 
> 
> Yes of course !
> 
> A new TV, a new BluRay "3D plus" certified player that can handle MVC at 60fps, and also a new AVR that can handle the extra bandwidth.
> 
> 
> Concerning backwards compatibility, MVC is not designed just for stereoscopic content, it is designed to hold any number of multi-views, so I believe MVC is flexible enough to allow both the 24fps movie and the missing frames to coexist on the same disc, there will be 3 dependent views instead of one with current BluRay 3D :
> 
> -main Left @ 24fps,
> 
> -dependent Right @ 24fps (just like current BluRay 3D)
> 
> -dependent extra frames Left @ 24fps
> 
> -dependent extra frames Right @ 24fps
> 
> 
> So if you read such a disc in your current player on your current TV, the BlRay disc association should be able to standardize it in such a way that it's backwards compatible with 24fps limited equipment.



this makes me glad i sent my panny back.....


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## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/20626834
> 
> 
> Yes, and likely new AVRs too... again.



Unfortunately no current CE product can handle 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/20626834
> 
> 
> Don't worry the tech will need to exist for at least a few years before consumers will get their hands on it.



Silicon Image usually makes HDMI chips in very large numbers so I think it is likely that there will be many CE products released next year that will support a 1080p60 per eye 3D signal.


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/20662824
> 
> 
> Unfortunately no current CE product can handle 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI.
> 
> 
> Silicon Image usually makes HDMI chips in very large numbers so I think it is likely that there will be many CE products released next year that will support a 1080p60 per eye 3D signal.



Isn't there an AVR that upscales HD to 4K now available? You see any consumer 4K TV sets available yet? Coming soon?


I just do not believe the industry is going to abandon 24 FPS industry wide. Nor do I see HD content originators or providers using 1080x60P for HD let alone for 3D.


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## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20663154
> 
> 
> Isn't there an AVR that upscales HD to 4K now available? You see any consumer 4K TV sets available yet? Coming soon?



Well several years ago when CE companies released the first 1080p TVs none of them supported 1080p60 over HDMI. The next year (after faster HDMI chips were released that supported 1080p60) the majority of 1080p TVs released supported 1080p60. I don't know if history will repeat itself but I feel confident enough to make what I would consider a safe prediction (considering that this year Sony released 16 1080p 3D TV models ). I predict that in 2012 there will be over 30 1080p 3D TV models released that will both accept and display a 1080p60 per eye 3D video signal sent over HDMI. Lee, would you disagree with that prediction?


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/20672589
> 
> 
> Well several years ago when CE companies released the first 1080p TVs none of them supported 1080p60 over HDMI. The next year (after faster HDMI chips were released that supported 1080p60) the majority of 1080p TVs released supported 1080p60. I don't know if history will repeat itself but I feel confident enough to make what I would consider a safe prediction (considering that this year Sony released 16 1080p 3D TV models ). I predict that in 2012 there will be over 30 1080p 3D TV models released that will both accept and display a 1080p60 per eye 3D video signal sent over HDMI. Lee, would you disagree with that prediction?



No - but what good is it without the content?


How many HDTVs claim Deep Color yet to this day there is no consumer HD content that is Deep Color encoded.


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## mrjktcvs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20672633
> 
> 
> No - but what good is it without the content?
> 
> 
> How many HDTVs claim Deep Color yet to this day there is no consumer HD content that is Deep Color encoded.



In the software industry, they have extra columns in tables and extra bits tacked on to data labeled "reserved for future use". Blu-ray as we know it will eventually be replaced by something more enhanced. Most people will update their source components more often than their displays with cost being a major factor in such decisions.


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## William




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrjktcvs* /forum/post/20673025
> 
> 
> In the software industry, they have extra columns in tables and extra bits tacked on to data labeled "reserved for future use". Blu-ray as we know it will eventually be replaced by something more enhanced. Most people will update their source components more often than their displays with cost being a major factor in such decisions.



Possibly but unfortunately doubtful. The video industry will likely mirror the audio industry. The CD was never replaced by a higher standard and now the majority of music is highly compressed MP3 download format.


BD will likely be replaced by streaming Nexflix/Apple TV. Also as for 60p 3D, fact: CONTEN IS KING. Until/if there is ever a library of content what is the pont of having a 60p 3D home format?


You are promoting a classic "cart before the horse".


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrjktcvs* /forum/post/20673025
> 
> 
> In the software industry, they have extra columns in tables and extra bits tacked on to data labeled "reserved for future use". Blu-ray as we know it will eventually be replaced by something more enhanced. Most people will update their source components more often than their displays with cost being a major factor in such decisions.



With the exception of the Mits and Samsung 3D ready DLP RPTVs as far as 3DTVs, that didn't happen did it?


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## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20672633
> 
> 
> No - but what good is it without the content?



I can understand that given the current situation those who are only interested in movies and TV programming might not consider this to be an issue. For those interested in HTPCs though this is an issue today. In a few years I think this will likely be an issue with future game console(s) and some consumer 3D video cameras as well.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20672633
> 
> 
> How many HDTVs claim Deep Color yet to this day there is no consumer HD content that is Deep Color encoded.



I believe that 1080p60 support on 1080p displays is a better analogy for 1080p60 per eye 3D support on 1080p 3D TVs.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *William* /forum/post/20673299
> 
> 
> Possibly but unfortunately doubtful. The video industry will likely mirror the audio industry. The CD was never replaced by a higher standard and now the majority of music is highly compressed MP3 download format.



Well 10 years ago (with the exception of Japan and the very expensive MUSE Laserdisc format ) there was no HD pre-recorded video content. As such 10 years ago for the vast majority of people DVD was the best pre-recorded video content that was possible. Today there are several video streaming services that stream 720p video. We likely won't see 1080p60 per eye 3D video streaming anytime soon but based on past history does anyone think that it won't eventually happen?


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/20675445
> 
> 
> I can understand that given the current situation those who are only interested in movies and TV programming might not consider this to be an issue. For those interested in HTPCs though this is an issue today. In a few years I think this will likely be an issue with future game console(s) and some consumer 3D video cameras as well.



And how big is that market?



> Quote:
> I believe that 1080p60 support on 1080p displays is a better analogy for 1080p60 per eye 3D support on 1080p 3D TVs.



Why? There is no 1080x60P per eye 3D content. Nor is there 1080x60P native HD content either. Don't mistake some upgrade that ESPN did and use speculation that consumers will be getting 1080x60P. The lions share of consumer viewing is still done by CBL/SAT/TELCO/OTA (if you doubt this just Google the Nielsen Three Screen report). You see any of them giving up the bandwidth to make available 1080x60P? I don't. So that means another higher level of MPEG encoding which means none of the equipment in consumers hands is compatible.



> Quote:
> We likely won't see 1080p60 per eye 3D video streaming anytime soon but based on past history does anyone think that it won't eventually happen?



Yes - me - I don't think it's going to happen. Just like I don't think they will ever give us Deep Color or High Dynamic Range HD.


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## BioSehnsucht

Gaming would benefit - even though no consoles would support it any time soon, it would be trivial for PCs to do it.


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## mrjktcvs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *William* /forum/post/20673299
> 
> 
> Possibly but unfortunately doubtful. The video industry will likely mirror the audio industry. The CD was never replaced by a higher standard and now the majority of music is highly compressed MP3 download format.
> 
> 
> BD will likely be replaced by streaming Nexflix/Apple TV. Also as for 60p 3D, fact: CONTEN IS KING. Until/if there is ever a library of content what is the pont of having a 60p 3D home format?
> 
> 
> You are promoting a classic "cart before the horse".




There is Netflix now, yet lots of people buy BD for various reasons, such as not wanting to wait until Netflix can actually deliver movies that have been released for home viewing well before then. Not to mention that their streaming library is disappointing, to say the least.


BD will be replaced because from everything I've read, 4k-2k is in our future. Disk-based media will be superior to downloads in some technical aspect for a long time to come, and there is a market for that.


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## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20675882
> 
> 
> And how big is that market?



I would start out by mentioning that it doesn't have to be an issue for the majority of customers. As long as the additional cost of adding that feature is small enough than even if that feature is an issue with only 10% of potential customers than I think the CE company will want their product to support that feature. Now with that being said I don't know how big of a market it will in the next few years based on the three sources I mentioned. The game console market though is fairly large and in a 2007 Nielsen survey game consoles were in over 40% of US households.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20675882
> 
> 
> Why? There is no 1080x60P per eye 3D content. Nor is there 1080x60P native HD content either.



I can think of a few sources of 1080p60 native HD content that exist today such as HTPCs, two game consoles (though to be fair only a tiny fraction of games are rendered at 1080p60), and several consumer video cameras (such as the Sony DSC-TX100V ). Though it hasn't been used in any products yet there is even a smartphone CMOS sensor (the OmniVision OV12825 ) that is capable of recording at 1080p60. And OmniVision is no small company since it has shipped over a billion CMOS sensors and as a recent example had a CMOS sensor used in the iPhone 4 .




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20675882
> 
> 
> Yes - me - I don't think it's going to happen. Just like I don't think they will ever give us Deep Color or High Dynamic Range HD.



Never is a very long time.


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/20678379
> 
> 
> I would start out by mentioning that it doesn't have to be an issue for the majority of customers. As long as the additional cost of adding that feature is small enough than even if that feature is an issue with only 10% of potential customers than I think the CE company will want their product to support that feature. Now with that being said I don't know how big of a market it will in the next few years based on the three sources I mentioned. The game console market though is fairly large and in a 2007 Nielsen survey game consoles were in over 40% of US households.
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of a few sources of 1080p60 native HD content that exist today such as HTPCs, two game consoles (though to be fair only a tiny fraction of games are rendered at 1080p60), and several consumer video cameras (such as the Sony DSC-TX100V ). Though it hasn't been used in any products yet there is even a smartphone CMOS sensor (the OmniVision OV12825 ) that is capable of recording at 1080p60. And OmniVision is no small company since it has shipped over a billion CMOS sensors and as a recent example had a CMOS sensor used in the iPhone 4 .
> 
> 
> 
> Never is a very long time.



LOL - the myth that Joe Sixpack is going to attach his computer to his television. How many years have we heard about this going to happen?


I guess we should cheer and wax lyrical about a camcorder or two that actually can shoot in XV Color!


You have a weak grasp on the difference between marketing and technology. The Asian TV CEMs have been selling Unicorns for decades. There are so many examples it's pathetic. What's one more.


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## Augerhandle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20679385
> 
> 
> LOL - the myth that Joe Sixpack is going to attach his computer to his television. How many years have we heard about this going to happen? ... [snip]



I don't have numbers on how pervasive it is nationwide (and I'm not Joe), but myself and three of my children have been connected for quite some time. Netflix, YouTube, and media files from our computers play quite often on our TVs and AVRs. It isn't perfect, but it's convenient.


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## GregK

I don't think Deep Color and 48/60fps is a good "apples to apples" comparison.


Deep Color, as I understand its implementation in HDMI 1.3, is totally imcompatible with older HDMI versions. So if a content provider were to use Deep Color, they would still need to provide another version for older players and/or displays. Plus Deep Color (for many ..not all) would only be subtle upgrade at best.


3-D, as used in HDMI 1.4, worked on avoiding this issue, by being backward compatible with HDMI 1.3 displays, and should be able to deliver a 2-D image to HDMI 1.3 2-D displays instead of simply going black or showing a distorted image.


Higher frame rates, especiallly 48fps, could be coded so legacy gear would only see 24fps. But those with newer gear would see the advantages of higher temporal rates, which is also far more noticable than what any Deep Color improvements can offer.


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregK* /forum/post/20680727
> 
> 
> I don't think Deep Color and 48/60fps is a good "apples to apples" comparison.
> 
> 
> Deep Color, as I understand its implementation in HDMI 1.3, is totally imcompatible with older HDMI versions. So if a content provider were to use Deep Color, they would still need to provide another version for older players and/or displays. Plus Deep Color (for many ..not all) would only be subtle upgrade at best.
> 
> 
> 3-D, as used in HDMI 1.4, worked on avoiding this issue, by being backward compatible with HDMI 1.3 displays, and should be able to deliver a 2-D image to HDMI 1.3 2-D displays instead of simply going black or showing a distorted image.
> 
> 
> Higher frame rates, especiallly 48fps, could be coded so legacy gear would only see 24fps. But those with newer gear would see the advantages of higher temporal rates, which is also far more noticable than what any Deep Color improvements can offer.



I disagree I think it's a perfect comparison. The entire industry uses Deep Color. It's an industry standard. They just don't give it to consumers. And so far, the entire industry is NOT using 1080 X 48 or 60 FPS. Few if any are using higher frame rates.


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## BioSehnsucht

Again, not all content comes merely from movies and TV. Games are a big thing, and if the next MS and Sony consoles (Nintendo is only just now catching up to / slightly passing the current gen with the Wii U) aren't capable of supporting (with enough graphics horsepower to actually _use_ as opposed to 1080 resolutions now) 1080P/60 3D I would be disappointed.


Joe Six Pack may not connect his PC to his HDTV, but many many PC gamers can and do. Sometimes I play at 1600x1200 on my ye olde ViewSonic P-series 19" CRT monitor, sometimes I play at 1920x1080 on my 3D capable DLP (though I haven't gotten around to playing with iz3D and such to play in 3D from the PC ... I have played in 3D from the Xbox). I just have to change the input select on my HDMI switcher, and load the game up on the other "monitor" that is now attached to my computer. (USB keyboard / mouse and extension / hub + Monoprice HDMI extender PID 8008 ftw - I was using a 35' cable before but it started flaking out, too much getting moved around with hooking / unhooking PC)


Are PC gamers enough to justify the creation of such a standard? No, not really, not if that is all there would ever be. But it wouldn't be. Consoles would pick it up, and even if that alone isn't good enough, it's good enough with both of them to wedge the door open wide enough for it to eventually become mainstream. Consumer 3D recording devices are only just now becoming available to the masses (i.e. 3D camera phones), it's only a matter of time before people take having a 3D 60fps camera phone for granted. And at that point, even if mainstream movies still aren't shot in higher framerates, there will still be a call for support of higher framerates for all the non movie / TV stuff out there.


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## GregK

I agree 100%. There will be an increasing interest in higher frame rates. I *do* think it will be a slow transition, but having (higher than 24fps) titles like Avatar II and the Hobbit in the works will certainly help educate those to it's advantages. As you noted, gamers already know these advantages.


Unlike the consumer non-backward compatible Deep Color as implemented with HDMI 1.3, 48fps & 60fps can be made to be backward compatible.


24fps, while certainly having it's "charm", in many respects is an antiquated temporal rate. But there will always be those who will prefer it. Or .. in the case of this given thread, "don't think it will happen".


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## Airion

I think 1080p60fps 3D capable sets will become the norm, whether everyone uses that capability or not.


I think it's quite simple. There will be a Playstation 4. The Playstation 3, though it struggles a bit, can already do 720p 3D. Sony will not limit it's new console to 720p 3D. It's weaksauce, people will ask why not 1080? Same with 1080p at 24fps, for games, that's weak. "It's (next) next generation and it still can't do proper 1080p?" Sony doesn't play that game. They always push the technological envelope with their consoles (and portables, for that matter).


Besides the fact that Sony also makes TVs and will make them to support it's consoles, if the PS4 supports this new HDMI, other TV manufacturers will have to support it too.


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## tory40

I read several years ago the gaming industry rakes in more money than Hollywood, so i guess thats part of it if that was correct. The only reason i bought a 3D Tv was for gaming. I look at it like a surround monitor setup, without the frames in the way and with a higher vertical field of view, which is trendily underrated at the moment in my opinion. I found out only after buying it that it will only do 720p. That was a bummer.


Nvidia wont even support 1080p30 3d, which it should since Tv's already do 1080p60 in 2d. Im awaiting a answer from Tridef as to whether their drivers support 1080p30. I'm hoping this will be a good solution, since i think the update rate may be higher, reducing mouse lag. Obviously theres a bit of flicker @24hz and 30hz, which i somehow only really notice in light scenes.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregK* /forum/post/20687685
> 
> 
> I agree 100%. There will be an increasing interest in higher frame rates. I *do* think it will be a slow transition, but having (higher than 24fps) titles like Avatar II and the Hobbit in the works will certainly help educate those to it's advantages. As you noted, gamers already know these advantages.
> 
> 
> Unlike the consumer non-backward compatible Deep Color as implemented with HDMI 1.3, 48fps & 60fps can be made to be backward compatible.
> 
> 
> 24fps, while certainly having it's "charm", in many respects is an antiquated temporal rate. But there will always be those who will prefer it. Or .. in the case of this given thread, "don't think it will happen".



Why couldn't Deep Color be made backwards compatible? You think it's impossible to go from 10 or 12 bit per color back to 8 bit?


----------



## GregK

It could have been, but from what I've read previously of the HDMI 1.3 specs, it currently is not backward compatible with older versions of HDMI. That's why there is *zero* consumer Deep Color content via HDMI. Of course, the current HDMI Deep Color specs could still be modified in the future.


----------



## Lee Stewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by *GregK* 
It could have been, but from what I've read previously of the HDMI 1.3 specs, it currently is not backward compatible with older versions of HDMI. That's why there is *zero* consumer Deep Color content via HDMI. Of course, the current HDMI Deep Color specs could still be modified in the future.
Guess you read wrong:

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles...ipment_how.php


----------



## GregK

Yeah - partly: It is Bluray that currently doesn't support DeepColor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Bl...HD_DVD_players


----------



## obveron

Honestly I don't know what all the debate is about..

1080p60 frampacking is a feature that interests GAMERS. Thats all the justification needed for the production and installation of higher bandwidth HDMI chips.

If the tech is released, Bluray may follow suit with higher framerates, but really thats a secondary consideration, the tech will need to come to displays FIRST.


It's just too bad that this wasn't done upfront with the release of HDMI 1.4. Nothing kills the adoption of new tech (3DTV) more than the incremental and staggered release of important features.

Personally I still don't own a 3DTV, I have the cash, and I LOVE stereo 3D. I can't commit to buying something that lacks a feature I want, when I know the feature could be right around the corner. HDMI really dropped the ball by not making 1080p60 Framepacking mandatory, and providing faster chips 2 years ago for all 3DTVs.


----------



## walford

We will probably have to wait for the next release of the US ATSC specs from the FCC which should include 1080p/120 as a supported video content protocol for3D which may use the HDMI 1.4 1080p/48 packed buffer format as a base and then there may be a corresponding update to the Blu-Ray 3D spec.

There is no problem with the today's 3D TVs/displays being able to display the 1080p/60 content per eye since they do that today when the they convert the convert the 1080p/48 packed buffer content to 1080p/60 per eye content using 3:2 pulldown.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/20708498
> 
> 
> Honestly I don't know what all the debate is about..
> 
> 1080p60 frampacking is a feature that interests GAMERS. Thats all the justification needed for the production and installation of higher bandwidth HDMI chips.
> 
> If the tech is released, Bluray may follow suit with higher framerates, but really thats a secondary consideration, the tech will need to come to displays FIRST.
> 
> 
> It's just too bad that this wasn't done upfront with the release of HDMI 1.4. Nothing kills the adoption of new tech (3DTV) more than the incremental and staggered release of important features.
> 
> Personally I still don't own a 3DTV, I have the cash, and I LOVE stereo 3D. I can't commit to buying something that lacks a feature I want, when I know the feature could be right around the corner. HDMI really dropped the ball by not making 1080p60 Framepacking mandatory, and providing faster chips 2 years ago for all 3DTVs.



What was going to be the storage media used for 1080x60P frame packing? It wasn't going to be Blu-ray.


What organization was going to adopt the specifications and promote it?


----------



## mrjktcvs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20711291
> 
> 
> What was going to be the storage media used for 1080x60P frame packing? It wasn't going to be Blu-ray.
> 
> 
> What organization was going to adopt the specifications and promote it?



It seems like the next logical step. Both Sony and Panasonic are hot competitors in the camcorder business. Sony displays already support 60i.


----------



## tory40

Having a line of "Gamer Certified!" Tvs makes sense, having special processors to eliminate input lag while allowing for special features like local dimming, etc. That way gamers could spend the extra cash needed for those features and you wouldn't have to pass the costs on to everyone. While there at it, lets make menus come up instantly, modes switch instantly, the cursor/selector scroll instantly, the Tv turn on instantly, change channels instantly. My Intel I7 CPU has a video card IN IT, that can run the graphically demanding game Crysis for ^@#! sake and has over billion transistors in it. Cost: $290. My video card, which can run Crysis in its sleep while playing the violin: $270.


A video card creates and draws the game scene 60 times a second, CREATES! The video processor just takes info from the disk and displays it on the screen.


Please Tv manufactures, get your unrevolutionary, piddlywink processor with its AMAZING 100 extra mhz of raw, pure power out quickly and im sure the Intel 3.4GHZ I7 2600k under my desk will do its best not to laugh when it arrives.


----------



## obveron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20711291
> 
> 
> What was going to be the storage media used for 1080x60P frame packing? It wasn't going to be Blu-ray.
> 
> 
> What organization was going to adopt the specifications and promote it?



Who cares? As I said, this feature is of interest to gamers, bluray is non-factor.


..but if you must, Bluray triple or quadruple layer disks would need to be used. No biggie.

We went from 700mb CDs to ~9GB DVDs, that's an increase of over 12X. Bluray came out with 50GB, an increase of less than 6X









Quadruple layer disks should be used for Studio Films with less compression. Full 60p framepacking would be easy with similiar compression to what we have now.

Heck with 128GB of space maybe 1080p24 2D films could even be lossless transfers.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/20708498
> 
> 
> 1080p60 frampacking is a feature that interests GAMERS. Thats all the justification needed for the production and installation of higher bandwidth HDMI chips.



Agreed, I think that for CE companies that alone would be sufficient reason to add 1080p60 Frame Packing to 3D HDMI products.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/20708498
> 
> 
> It's just too bad that this wasn't done upfront with the release of HDMI 1.4. Nothing kills the adoption of new tech (3DTV) more than the incremental and staggered release of important features.
> 
> Personally I still don't own a 3DTV, I have the cash, and I LOVE stereo 3D. I can't commit to buying something that lacks a feature I want, when I know the feature could be right around the corner. HDMI really dropped the ball by not making 1080p60 Framepacking mandatory, and providing faster chips 2 years ago for all 3DTVs.



The HDMI organization is mostly composed of CE companies and would not have made 1080p60 Frame Packing mandatory for 3D HDMI products unless it could have been done cheaply. As such though their decision to make it optional has caused problems it could have been based on the cost of the technology at that time.


On the other hand I think that the lack of a universal standard for 3D active shutter glasses was a mistake that could have been easily resolved by now had the CE companies made a serious effort at it. Though so called "universal" 3D active shutter glasses are sold they aren't exactly "universal" since CE companies use different color tints on their 3D active shutter glasses . I think that eventually a universal standard for 3D active shutter glasses will happen but right now the CEA is still working on it .




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20711291
> 
> 
> What was going to be the storage media used for 1080x60P frame packing? It wasn't going to be Blu-ray.



Do you think that Blu-ray will be the last physical video format released? Personally I think that eventually another physical video format will be released with greater capacity and using a more efficient video codec (such as HEVC ).


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/20727676
> 
> 
> Who cares? As I said, this feature is of interest to gamers, bluray is non-factor.
> 
> 
> ..but if you must, Bluray triple or quadruple layer disks would need to be used. No biggie.
> 
> We went from 700mb CDs to ~9GB DVDs, that's an increase of over 12X. Bluray came out with 50GB, an increase of less than 6X
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quadruple layer disks should be used for Studio Films with less compression. Full 60p framepacking would be easy with similiar compression to what we have now.
> 
> Heck with 128GB of space maybe 1080p24 2D films could even be lossless transfers.



Are those 3 and four layer BDs ROMs or are they R/REs?


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/20730401
> 
> 
> Do you think that Blu-ray will be the last physical video format released? Personally I think that eventually another physical video format will be released with greater capacity and using a more efficient video codec (such as HEVC ).


*Sony Admits: Blu-Ray Is the Last Optical Disc Format.*

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/storage...sc_Format.html 


What physical media do you know of that will hold 200 to 300 GBs and can be replicated 6 a minute at a cost of less then a dollar each?


And if you increase the size of the storage capacity, you don't need to increase the efficiency of the compression codec. We already have Motion JPEG 2000


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20730522
> 
> 
> Sony Admits: Blu-Ray Is the Last Optical Disc Format.
> 
> http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/storage...sc_Format.html



Lee, does this mean that you agree with the speculation from the Sony product strategy manager for home video marketing in Europe who made those comments back in 2008? Would you agree with the other Sony spokesman in that article that talked about "prototypes for 400GB discs" and how that would allow Blu-ray to store 4K video?




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20730522
> 
> 
> What physical media do you know of that will hold 200 to 300 GBs and can be replicated 6 a minute at a cost of less then a dollar each?



There was a reason I used the word "eventually" and on the specific issue of optical discs I would mention that research does continue both on multi-layer discs and ultraviolet solid state lasers .




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20730522
> 
> 
> And if you increase the size of the storage capacity, you don't need to increase the efficiency of the compression codec. We already have Motion JPEG 2000



Well even with greater capacity having increased efficiency allows you to do more with that capacity. For a consumer physical video format that is important.


----------



## obveron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20730515
> 
> 
> Are those 3 and four layer BDs ROMs or are they R/REs?



They could make them ROMS, nothing is stopping them. Yes I realize they're only available as R/REs right now, but they COULD print them. People would need new BD players. I think the extra layers could contain the extra frames so that people with old players could still get 24P. I'm sure MVC could allow such division of optional frames.


----------



## Lee Stewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* 
Lee, does this mean that you agree with the speculation from the Sony product strategy manager for home video marketing in Europe who made those comments back in 2008? Would you agree with the other Sony spokesman in that article that talked about "prototypes for 400GB discs" and how that would allow Blu-ray to store 4K video?
4K video? What will that be, the next Laserdisc? Some super niche format for a couple of million consumers. You don't seem to understand the law of diminishing returns Richard.


We have been looking at large storage optical disc prototypes for over 10 years. So where are they? 400GB? That's a joke in comparison to other technologies. 1 TB - that has to be the minimum. Enough of the baby steps. No evolutionary change - has to be revolutionary or it will never be widely adopted.

Quote:

There was a reason I used the word "eventually" and on the specific issue of optical discs I would mention that research does continue both on multi-layer discs and ultraviolet solid state lasers .
What? 20 years from now? I guess that falls under the heading of "eventually" doesn't it.

Quote:

Well even with greater capacity having increased efficiency allows you to do more with that capacity. For a consumer physical video format that is important.
Don't forget the emphasis is on; "consumer" which has many limitations attached to it.


----------



## Lee Stewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by *obveron* 
They could make them ROMS, nothing is stopping them. Yes I realize they're only available as R/REs right now, but they COULD print them. People would need new BD players. I think the extra layers could contain the extra frames so that people with old players could still get 24P. I'm sure MVC could allow such division of optional frames.
No issues at all huh? What is the reject rate for quad layer optical discs? Can't answer that can you because there has never been a quad layer ROM disc replicated at high speed has there?


You also fail to understand that the more layers you add, the more error correction you will need as the read error rate increases geometrically. We are talking about consumer machines here, not precision professional grade equipment.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20735733
> 
> 
> 4K video? What will that be, the next Laserdisc? Some super niche format for a couple of million consumers.



I asked about 4K video since it was in the article that you posted and to see how much of that article you agreed with. For the next physical video format I personally would like to see support for higher frame rates, increased color depth, and less/no color subsampling.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20735733
> 
> 
> Don't forget the emphasis is on; "consumer" which has many limitations attached to it.



Well the definition of what is considered "consumer" changes with time.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/20742282
> 
> 
> I asked about 4K video since it was in the article that you posted and to see how much of that article you agreed with. For the next physical video format I personally would like to see support for higher frame rates, increased color depth, and less/no color subsampling.
> 
> 
> Well the definition of what is considered "consumer" changes with time.



You honestly believe the indusrty will give consumers a professional grade video format? They haven't yet.


----------



## GregK




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20743623
> 
> 
> You honestly believe the indusrty will give consumers a professional grade video format? They haven't yet.



Hmm.. For decades, they said the same thing about 3-D.










Richard is correct: As far as "professional grade" formats go, that definition can be somewhat subjective and fleeting in nature. I'll take a brand new transfer delivered on consumer Bluray over a transfer on a professional grade format that was made just ten years ago.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregK* /forum/post/20745214
> 
> 
> Hmm.. For decades, they said the same thing about 3-D.



That is subjective. Yes we have 1080P per eye, no we do not have a color depth greater than 8bit per color



> Quote:
> Richard is correct: As far as "professional grade" formats go, that definition can be somewhat subjective and fleeting in nature. I'll take a brand new transfer delivered on consumer Bluray over a transfer on a professional grade format that was made just ten years ago.



That would be 2001 right? You really think Blu-ray looks better than Panasonic's D-5HD?


----------



## GregK

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* 
That is subjective. Yes we have 1080P per eye, no we do not have a color depth greater than 8bit per color :
Ha ha! Subjective indeed! Which validates what Richard and I said.

It seems your sole critera for "professional" is color depth.


Quote:

Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* 
That would be 2001 right? You really think Blu-ray looks better than Panasonic's D-5HD?








Yes, which commonly back then was likely 1080i, along with not having other transfer advancements in the last ten years.


Everybody else "gets it", Lee. I'll pop back in from time to time, but won't be feeding the troll.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GregK* /forum/post/20746650
> 
> 
> Ha ha! Subjective indeed! Which validates what Richard and I said.
> 
> It seems your sole critera for "professional" is color depth.



Seems you don't care about color banding or hue accuracy. I am surprised. Just a pixel counter huh?



> Quote:
> Yes, which commonly back then was likely 1080i, along with not having other transfer advancements in the last ten years.
> 
> 
> Everybody else "gets it", Lee. I'll pop back in from time to time, but won't be feeding the troll.



Don't know much about D-5HD do you?


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart* /forum/post/20743623
> 
> 
> You honestly believe the indusrty will give consumers a professional grade video format? They haven't yet.


 Ateme has shown that encoding at 10-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr takes no more video bandwidth than encoding at 8-bit 4:2:0 YCbCr. Here is a technical paper and an article from Ateme explaining why. Here is a technical paper from Ericsson to support this as well. I believe that one day consumer video will move beyond 8-bit 4:2:0 YCbCr.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/20748859
> 
> Ateme has shown that encoding at 10-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr takes no more video bandwidth than encoding at 8-bit 4:2:0 YCbCr. Here is a technical paper and an article from Ateme explaining why. Here is a technical paper from Ericsson to support this as well. I believe that one day consumer video will move beyond 8-bit 4:2:0 YCbCr.



That they can do it is not the question. Will they do it - THAT is the question. Same as this:

*GE Shows 500GB Holographic Disc*

http://dvice.com/archives/2011/07/ge-announces-ho.php


----------



## obveron

I think this thread needs to be bumped.


Look at these threads

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1358680 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1359207 



1080p60 framepacking already in current Sony camcorders and Samsung TVs?


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/20926989
> 
> 
> Look at these threads
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1358680
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1359207
> 
> 
> 
> 1080p60 framepacking already in current Sony camcorders and Samsung TVs?



As far as I know the first HDMI chips capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing only began sampling in May and mass production usually happens months after sampling. As such when it comes to these rumors of CE products from the spring of 2011 being capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing I am very, very skeptical.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/20926989
> 
> 
> I think this thread needs to be bumped.
> 
> 
> Look at these threads
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1358680
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1359207
> 
> 
> 
> 1080p60 framepacking already in current Sony camcorders and Samsung TVs?



Video Resolution : 3D HD: 2x 1920x1080/60i; HD: 1920x1080/60p,24p,60i (FX, FH), 1440x1080/60i (HQ, LP); STD: 720x480/60i

http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...specifications


----------



## Richard Paul

Since I have seen this discussed in other threads here is an explanation for the 297 MHz bandwidth number for 1080p60 Frame Packing. With the blanking intervals included 24-bit color 1080p60 Frame Packing is 2200 (horizontal pixels) x 2250 (vertical pixels) x 60 (frame rate) x 10 (an 8-bit color component converted into a 10-bit TMDS symbol) x 3 (a color component is sent over each of the three TMDS data links) = 8.91 Gbits or 297 MHz (since a 10-bit TMDS symbol is sent over each of the three TMDS data links every clock cycle). Here is an image from the HD Guru website of how Frame Packing looks though I would mention that the image doesn't show the horizontal blanking interval or the entire vertical blanking interval (there is an additional 45 pixels of vertical blanking interval on the outside of the active video area).


----------



## obveron

Yup, false alarm. Too good to be true syndrome.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obveron* /forum/post/20933807
> 
> 
> Yup, false alarm. Too good to be true syndrome.



I can understand the optimism behind such threads but based on what I have read we most likely won't see CE products that support 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a until next year.


----------



## Augerhandle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/20957849
> 
> 
> I can understand the optimism behind such threads but based on what I have read we most likely won't see CE products that support 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a until next year.



And wouldn't they deem to call it something else, as well, such as HDMI 1.4c or HDMI 1.5?


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Augerhandle* /forum/post/20962537
> 
> 
> And wouldn't they deem to call it something else, as well, such as HDMI 1.4c or HDMI 1.5?



The bandwidth limitation that prevented 1080p60 Frame Packing (1080p60 per eye 3D video) was due to the HDMI chips that were used. 1080p60 Frame Packing is one of the optional 3D formats in HDMI 1.4a and is supported with this HDMI 1.4a chip that was announced back in May . As such the HDMI version won't tell you whether a 3D product will support 1080p60 Frame Packing. The only ways to tell will be if the CE company promotes 1080p60 Frame Packing as a feature, lists 1080p60 Frame Packing support in their product manual, or if the product can be shown to work with 1080p60 Frame Packing video.


----------



## Richard Paul

Silicon Image has put up the pages for the SiI9587-3 HDMI 1.4a port processor chip and the SiI9589-3 HDMI 1.4a port processor chip which are the two other 300 MHz HDMI chips that were announced back in May . Previously the only 300 MHz HDMI chip on the Silicon Image website was the SiI9136-3 HDMI 1.4a transmitter chip .


Silicon Image has announced two additional 300 MHz HDMI chips with 6 HDMI inputs and 2 HDMI outputs and one of them is the SiI9575 HDMI 1.4a port processor chip . Note that multiple HDMI chips can be used in an AV receiver but using only a single HDMI chip makes for a simpler design. Silicon Image is currently giving product demonstrations at the CEATEC Japan 2011 show (October 4-7) .


----------



## ComputerCowboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BioSehnsucht* /forum/post/20675889
> 
> 
> Gaming would benefit - even though no consoles would support it any time soon, it would be trivial for PCs to do it.



Yes it is games that will be the first to support it, in fact they already do! You can go out right now today and buy a monitor made for nVidia 3D Vision that does 1080P @ 120Hz or 1080P 3D @ 60Hz.


Most of the displays today do what we want, it is just a matter of getting the data to the display. Dual Link DVI and DisplayPort can drive a display with that bandwidth requirement right now. Current HDMI seems to be capped at 155Mhz or so (this is from my real world tests) 1080P @120Hz needs 285Mhz of bandwidth. The new 300Mhz chips would fill that need. I agree that they aren't just making those chips for no reason, they are going to find their way into displays and displays are going to start supporting 1080P 3D @ 60Hz per eye.


----------



## Richard Paul

The AMD Radeon HD 7970 graphics card was announced today (for release on January 9th of 2012) and one of the new features it supports is 1080p60 per eye 3D video over HDMI 1.4a . AMD calls it both "Fast HDMI" and "3GHz HDMI" (a 300 MHz HDMI chip can send 3 Gbps of TMDS data over each of the three TMDS data channels). As far as I know this is the first consumer product to be announced that is capable of 1080p60 per eye 3D video over HDMI.


----------



## Richard Paul

 Here is a link to a video that was made yesterday at CES 2012 with Steve Venuti (the president of HDMI LLC). During the video he mentions that though he can't name any of the companies that several companies will announce products that support 1080p60 per eye 3D video over HDMI. The relevant part of the video begins at 6:28.


----------



## Cackus Jack

Technology is so damn aggravating.


I got my 3DTV a year ago and in less than a year it will be outdated.


What's the point in buying anything these days?


----------



## miahallen

Thanks for keeping this thread updated Richard Paul.....I've been very interested in this for quite a while (I'm a PC gamer







)! sub'd


----------



## Solid-State

FINALLY!!!


This has been a big deal for some years and doesn't just affect 3D. We have never had official 120Hz support in the HDMI spec. This is a HUGE DEAL for 3D PC gaming and as movie makers and consoles move forward it only makes sense for their content to also be 60fps per eye frame packed or sequential.


I'm hopping Panasonic will take the DT30 series in the future and really think of creating a TV for this market by supporting 1080p60 120Hz frame sequencial 4:4:4 via HDMI port as well as adding a DL-DVI port with this support. Ditch the RETARDED D-SUB VGA connection manufacturers!


Any manufacturer that does this on their 3D product line will instantly gain the PC 3D gaming market.
*

Owhh and by the way manufacturers this is THE BIGGEST MARKET for 3D FPD users duh!*


----------



## tory40




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Solid-State* /forum/post/21524497
> 
> 
> Any manufacturer that does this on their 3D product line will instantly gain the PC 3D gaming market.



As long as they don't mess it all up with high input lag, low brightness, or high crosstalk levels.. *crossing fingers*


I am also waiting for this eagerly and hope they hurry it up. I wonder why monitor manufacturers don't buy some 3DTV's from Sony and add on dual link dvi. Especially when you consider how popular surround gaming is.


Heres an interview with Steve Venuti, the CEO of HDMI from this years CES.
http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?opti...2810&Itemid=75


----------



## eqzitara

Unfortunately they were just talking about the chip at CES.(silicon vendors)

Just because the chip was made they need to talk the developers into using them. Meaning displays companies may decide not to use it. All hardware will need to be upgraded to use it. Pc video cards, blu-ray players, recievers, tvs, etc. Your tv and the connected product both need the chip. A developer may not invest in it.


Also you cant just add dvi-d onto a display and it will magically support it.(3d)


----------



## tory40




> Quote:
> Also you cant just add dvi-d onto a display and it will magically support it.(3d)



That i didn't know. But aren't there displays with HDMI and DVI-D? If you needed to view HDCP content use HDMI, if 3D gaming, use DVI-D?


----------



## miahallen

@ tory, HDCP can be supported through DVI-D just fine.


The real problem is that while many displays can show 120Hz or more at their native resolution, they do so by using interpolation. Support for 1080p120 input is a whole different beast.



> Quote:
> As long as they don't mess it all up with high input lag, low brightness, or high crosstalk levels.. *crossing fingers*



+1....Acer needs to make a new version of the H5360 with 1080p support


----------



## obveron




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cackus Jack* /forum/post/21503068
> 
> 
> Technology is so damn aggravating.
> 
> 
> I got my 3DTV a year ago and in less than a year it will be outdated.
> 
> 
> What's the point in buying anything these days?



Hahah i feel you man, I also only bought 6 months ago, and 1080p60 s3d gaming was the only thing that tempted me to wait. I had been waiting an eternity for my first flat panel.

In the end my desire for a new TV and the consideration that 1080p60 framepacking may not happen in the near future (or at all), pushed me to pull the trigger.

It's typical that the feature is hitting the shelves so soon. haha

Technology kinda bites you in the ass that way. It's all good for people who can afford a new TV every few years.


I try to clear my mind of such "regrets", I'll enjoy this TV for what it is for the next 15+ years. I'll pull the trigger again when TVs are massive leaps ahead.


Of course the in meanwhile I'll keep meticulously informed on every model, as if I were ready to buy again (one of my weird hobbeys).


----------



## eqzitara

I wouldn't worry about it if you bought a display already. People are jumping the gun since the new chip has been announced. It may or may not even be supported in displays. As it is right now, no name chipset producers are trying to push a product we have no idea works 100% okay. No tv,monitor,projector manufactor has even given a hint that they are interested in this chip.

Im hoping for 2013 if at all.


----------



## Lee Stewart

What good is a chipset without the support of the content providers?


HDMI 1.3 chipsets support Deep Color. Has any Hollywood studio released a BD that has 10bit color or higher? The answer is no.


----------



## miahallen

What I don't get is that the tech to support 1080p120 is already here....why are manufacturers ignoring it? (Displayport or dual-link DVI) So frustrating


----------



## tory40




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miahallen* /forum/post/21538644
> 
> 
> @ tory, HDCP can be supported through DVI-D just fine.
> 
> 
> The real problem is that while many displays can show 120Hz or more at their native resolution, they do so by using interpolation. Support for 1080p120 input is a whole different beast.
> 
> 
> 
> +1....Acer needs to make a new version of the H5360 with 1080p support



Oh, thats what i was, i completely forgot DVI-D monitors operate at 120hz...


----------



## tory40




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ComputerCowboy* /forum/post/21100869
> 
> 
> Yes it is games that will be the first to support it, in fact they already do! You can go out right now today and buy a monitor made for nVidia 3D Vision that does 1080P @ 120Hz or 1080P 3D @ 60Hz.
> 
> 
> Most of the displays today do what we want, it is just a matter of getting the data to the display. Dual Link DVI and DisplayPort can drive a display with that bandwidth requirement right now. Current HDMI seems to be capped at 155Mhz or so (this is from my real world tests) 1080P @120Hz needs 285Mhz of bandwidth. The new 300Mhz chips would fill that need. I agree that they aren't just making those chips for no reason, they are going to find their way into displays and displays are going to start supporting 1080P 3D @ 60Hz per eye.



Anyone ever try overclocking these chips with some water cooling? I'm sure its not that easy, but i'd buy a water cooler kit and solder some stuff if it worked!


----------



## almostinsane




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miahallen* /forum/post/21568688
> 
> 
> What I don't get is that the tech to support 1080p120 is already here....why are manufacturers ignoring it? (Displayport or dual-link DVI) So frustrating



It's a computer connection. No CE devices have either of those on them.


Same reason you don't see TV's with USB 3.0 or eSATA ports.


----------



## Richard Paul

On January 31 the AMD Radeon HD 7950 was released so there are now two consumer products that support 1080p60 per eye 3D video over HDMI (AMD uses the term "1080p60 Stereoscopic 3D" ).




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *eqzitara* /forum/post/21567953
> 
> 
> People are jumping the gun since the new chip has been announced.



300 MHz HDMI chips were announced in May of last year and on January 9th the first consumer product that uses a 300 MHz HDMI chip was released.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *eqzitara* /forum/post/21567953
> 
> 
> As it is right now, no name chipset producers are trying to push a product we have no idea works 100% okay.


 Silicon Image was one of the main companies behind the creation of both DVI and HDMI. In fact they developed TMDS which is the way that data is transmitted over DVI/HDMI.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miahallen* /forum/post/21568688
> 
> 
> What I don't get is that the tech to support 1080p120 is already here....why are manufacturers ignoring it? (Displayport or dual-link DVI)



I think the main issue is that the CE world uses HDMI which includes those products that go between source and display such as AV receivers and HDMI switches. For a 3D TV the value of having a dual-link DVI input or DisplayPort input that supports 1080p60 per eye 3D video is less than the value of having a HDMI input that supports it.


----------



## miahallen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/21594300
> 
> 
> I think the main issue is that the CE world uses HDMI which includes those products that go between source and display such as AV receivers and HDMI switches. For a 3D TV the value of having a dual-link DVI input or DisplayPort input that supports 1080p60 per eye 3D video is less than the value of having a HDMI input that supports it.



I agree that a 1080p120 over HDMI solution is preferable to DP or DVI....
*My point is that a DP or DVI solution is better than NOTHING!*


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miahallen* /forum/post/21603535
> 
> 
> I agree that a 1080p120 over HDMI solution is preferable to DP or DVI....
> *My point is that a DP or DVI solution is better than NOTHING!*



True, but the less value a feature adds to the 3D TV the less likely it is to be added to the 3D TV. That would be my guess for why none of the 3D TVs released so far have supported 1080p60 per eye 3D video using DisplayPort or dual-link DVI.


----------



## Richard Paul

Since this relates to the past discussion on 300 MHz HDMI chips I would mention that 2160p (4K) at 24/25/30 fps has a bandwidth of 297 MHz. To be exact the video timings with blanking intervals for 2160p24 is 2250 x 5500 x 24 = 297 MHz and for 2160p30 is 2250 x 4400 x 30 = 297 MHz. As such products announced at CES 2012 that support 2160p24 video over HDMI like the Sony BDP-S790 are using 300 MHz HDMI chips.


----------



## Richard Paul

With the February 15 launch of the AMD Radeon HD 7770/7750 graphic cards there are now two more consumer products on the market that support 1080p60 per eye 3D video over HDMI.


----------



## Richard Paul

Onkyo has announced four new AV receivers with the TX-NR616 and TX-NR515 supporting video upscaling/output at 4K. Sadly it seems unlikely that they will support 1080p60 per eye 3D video since the TX-NR616 datasheet notes that pass-through of 4K video isn't supported.


----------



## Richard Paul

The AMD Radeon HD 7870/7850 graphic cards have been announced for a March 19 launch. When that happens there will be six AMD graphic card models on the market ranging from $109 to $549 MSRP that are capable of 1080p60 per eye 3D video over HDMI.


----------



## Tracydick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/20574426
> 
> Here is a link to one of the 300 MHz HDMI 1.4a chips.
> 
> 
> The only current source would be a HTPC . Within 3 years though I think it is likely that 1080p60 per eye video will be possible on one or more future game consoles. As for 3D TV channels I wouldn't even guess at when it might happen but I did find a press release from ESPN that shows that they are considering it.



Really that would make my day.... Sports and video games are most of what I watch on my 3D TV. I would probably have to upgrade but resell would be pretty high. That on an Oled would be amazing.


----------



## Richard Paul

The NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 was released on March 22 and it most likely supports 1080p60 per eye 3D (also called 1080p60 Frame Packing or 1080p60 Stereoscopic 3D) over HDMI. I say most likely since NVIDIA doesn't exactly make things clear and on the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 specification page it simply lists a "maximum digital resolution" of 2560x1600 and doesn't give any details on 3D output. In contrast the AMD Radeon 7970 specification page is very clear on those issues.


There is a lot of evidence though that the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 is capable of 4K over HDMI. The GeForce GTX 680 whitepaper says that the display engine was designed for "4k and 3GHz HDMI displays". Also the Zotac press release for the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 states that it "supports 3840 x 2160, or 4K, displays via HDMI 1.4a and DisplayPort 1.2 ports to take gaming beyond HD resolutions" and the Zotac specification sheet states that the HDMI 1.4a connector is "4K ready" and lists "Quad Full HD (4K)" under the HDTV Ready section. If the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 is capable of 4K over HDMI than it almost certainly is capable of 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI as well.


----------



## walford

When the ATSC spec is updated to include the 2025x1080 packed buffer 3D format and frame sequential 1080p/60 3D format then we will see a HDMI spec update also for these frame formats and 4K format updates also for the ATSC and HDMI specs we will see content from the suppliers.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/21823151
> 
> 
> When the ATSC spec is updated to include the 2025x1080 packed buffer 3D format and frame sequential 1080p/60 3D format then we will see a HDMI spec update also for these frame formats and 4K format updates also for the ATSC and HDMI specs we will see content from the suppliers.



HDMI 1.4a is capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing and 2160p30 (3840x2160 at 30 fps) it is simply that they require a 300 MHz HDMI chip. At the CES 2012 HDMI press conference (starting at 11:40 in the video) it was announced that the next HDMI specification would be capable of 2160p60. I would mention that DisplayPort 1.2 is already capable of 2160p60 due to its higher bandwidth which also allows for higher resolution 3D video formats such as "2560x1600p60 Stereoscopic 3D" which can be seen on the AMD Radeon 7970 specifications page . I agree that if ATSC is updated to include a video format we would be more likely to see pre-recorded content made for that video format but the ATSC 3.0 standard is years away from being finished.


----------



## Richard Paul

Yamaha recently released 3 new AV receivers capable of 4K pass through over HDMI (3840x2160 at 30 fps or 4096x2160 at 24 fps) which is noted in their user manuals. The user manuals can be downloaded from the USA Yamaha website (it requires registration) though it is easier to download them from the UK Yamaha website . These are the first AV receivers I know of that are capable of 4K pass through over HDMI. Hopefully this means that they are also capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing.


----------



## tory40

Onkyo has 3 or more receivers (i don't even know what those are) that have instaprevue, a technology that "can" (perhaps only?) come with 300mhz chips by Silicone Image. But how can you use this with a TV, isn't the TV's input still a bottleneck?


I haven't seen any LCD 3DTV's that do 1080p60 yet. Im worried that they might not list the spec explicitly or at all do to the relatively low demand for the feature.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tory40* /forum/post/21874298
> 
> 
> Onkyo has 3 or more receivers (i don't even know what those are) that have instaprevue, a technology that "can" (perhaps only?) come with 300mhz chips by Silicone Image.



As mentioned in this earlier post the two Onkyo AV receivers that were recently released can only upscale to 4K and do not support 4K pass through. My guess is that it is a cost issue and that Onkyo decided to use slower 225 MHz HDMI chips for the inputs and only use a faster 300 MHz HDMI chip for the output. Currently as far as I know only Yamaha has released AV receivers capable of 4K pass through over HDMI. There is the possibility that they support 1080p60 Frame Packing and that Yamaha simply didn't mention that in the user manuals (Yamaha listed the 4K video formats but only mentioned support for 3D video) but there is also the possibility that they don't support it.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tory40* /forum/post/21874298
> 
> 
> But how can you use this with a TV, isn't the TV's input still a bottleneck?



Until 3D TVs are released that can accept a 1080p60 Frame Packing signal the only devices I know of that can even test for it would be professional HDMI testing equipment.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tory40* /forum/post/21874298
> 
> 
> I haven't seen any LCD 3DTV's that do 1080p60 yet. Im worried that they might not list the spec explicitly or at all do to the relatively low demand for the feature.



Just my opinion but I think that if a CE company released the first 3D TV capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing they would mention that especially now that there are graphic cards capable of it.


----------



## walford

Are there published specs for 4K and/or 1080p60 packed frame 3D video that fully describe the sound location and size so the audio can be extracted by AVR's and TVs?


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/21879262
> 
> 
> Are there published specs for 4K and/or 1080p60 packed frame 3D video that fully describe the sound location and size so the audio can be extracted by AVR's and TVs?



The HDMI 1.4 specification (and more recent versions) would have that information but the last version of the HDMI specification that was available for public download was the HDMI 1.3a specification.


----------



## Colm

1080p60 3D is a secondary format under the HDMI 1.4a specification. 4K is not covered.


----------



## walford

If I remember from the HDMI web site the alternate 3D HDMI 1.4a spec for side by side 1080p frames is for frame sequential frames also known as page flipping and not for a packed frame 3D format?


----------



## Colm

1080p60 3D frame packing and side-by-side (half) are secondary 3D formats under the 1.4a specification.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/21881215
> 
> 
> 1080p60 3D is a secondary format under the HDMI 1.4a specification. 4K is not covered.



I am certain that the 4K formats (4096x2160 at 24 fps and 3840x2160 at 24, 25, and 30 fps) are in the HDMI 1.4a specification. Those 4K formats are mentioned in the press release for the HDMI 1.4 specification and there are HDMI products that support them . I think you may have read the 3D portion of the HDMI 1.4a specification which is available for public download on the HDMI website.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *walford* /forum/post/21882728
> 
> 
> If I remember from the HDMI web site the alternate 3D HDMI 1.4a spec for side by side 1080p frames is for frame sequential frames also known as page flipping and not for a packed frame 3D format?



From what I have read there is no Page Flipping 3D method in HDMI 1.4a. The Page Flipping 3D method is used by NVIDIA 3D Vision (and NVIDIA use a proprietary method to do it). Though it is different than the Page Flipping 3D method you may be thinking of the Side-By-Side (Full) 3D method. A figure for Side-By-Side (Full) can be seen on page 23 of the 3D portion of the HDMI 1.4a specification. Side-By-Side (Full) is similar to the Frame Packing 3D method except instead of the left eye and right eye frames being on the top and bottom they are side by side.


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul* /forum/post/21884283
> 
> 
> I am certain that the 4K formats (4096x2160 at 24 fps and 3840x2160 at 24, 25, and 30 fps) are in the HDMI 1.4a specification.



Sorry if my comment was too terse. I was referring to a 3D format.


----------



## walford

OP,

You are correct I was assuming that the HDMI 1.4a optional 1080p SbS Full 3D format was the same as the Stereoscopic Player page flipping format which AFAIK is also what Nvidia uses.


----------



## tory40

The Sony HX850 of 2012 is listed as doing 1080p60, but didn't specify whether or not it will do that in 3D so i went down to a local store and checked it out with the monitor resource manager utility and to my dismay it uses the old 225mhz chips.


On a side note, I also loaded up a 3D game with the HX929 in 1080p24 and it doubled or tripled the framerate (and thus flicker rate) and the input lag was very close to making it usable. I'd couldn't try the HX850 in an actual game because Nvidia requires approval or something for all new displays they will support. I would have liked to try it because it supposedly has new faster chips for the 3D processing.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tory40* /forum/post/21905410
> 
> 
> The Sony HX850 of 2012 is listed as doing 1080p60, but didn't specify whether or not it will do that in 3D so i went down to a local store and checked it out with the monitor resource manager utility and to my dismay it uses the old 225mhz chips.



That is unfortunate news and so far I haven't even heard of one 3D TV capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing. Based on current information I think it is likely that the vast majority of 3D TVs released this year won't support 1080p60 Frame Packing.


----------



## Richard Paul

The AMD Radeon HD 7700M series , AMD Radeon HD 7800M series , and AMD Radeon HD 7900M series have been announced today and they support 1080p60 Frame Packing (AMD uses the term "1080p60 Stereoscopic 3D" ).


----------



## Bob7145

Nvidia has no monopoly on page flipping. The Acer H5360 works quite well with AMD also.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bob7145* /forum/post/21947941
> 
> 
> Nvidia has no monopoly on page flipping. The Acer H5360 works quite well with AMD also.



From what I have read NVIDIA uses a patented/proprietary method of Page Flipping with NVIDIA 3D Vision. As such displays that only support 3D video using NVIDIA 3D Vision won't work with the 3D video from graphic cards made by other companies. I checked the user manual for the Acer H5360 projector and it supports both NVIDIA 3D Vision and DLP Link. Since that projector supports DLP Link it would work with 3D video from AMD graphic cards.


The vast majority of the 3D displays that only supported 3D video using NVIDIA 3D Vision were older 3D computer monitors. Most of the 3D computer monitors released in the last year support 3D video using DisplayPort and/or HDMI as well as supporting NVIDIA 3D Vision. I think in the long term NVIDIA 3D Vision will fade away since from both a consumer and manufacturer viewpoint it really isn't needed now that there are standard ways to send 3D video using DisplayPort and HDMI.


----------



## Bob7145

I would never want to use 3D on an LCD anything. Why buy into crappy LCD tech when for about the same money or less in some instances you can get a much faster DLP projector and make the screen any size you want? The larger the screen the better the 3D effect. Using a monitor for 3D is like eating bits of steak the size of Cherrios.


----------



## tory40

I checked out the Samsung ES8000 and it does not have the new HDMI chips. That makes Sony's and Samsungs top end not having it. I'll be trying the active 3D Panasonic, Sharp and Phillips when they come out.


----------



## miahallen

Any updates :-/


----------



## miahallen

*"LG Has Announced an 84-inch 4K Ultra Definition 3D-capable HDTV"*

http://3dvision-blog.com/8301-lg-has-announced-an-84-inch-4k-ultra-definition-3d-capable-hdtv/ 


> Quote:
> The good thing from all this is that we are probably also going to have support for 1080p 60Hz frame packaged 3D mode sooner than later, so while 4K TV sets at every home is something still in the not so near future, we may all benefit from that even in the next generation of Full HD 3D-capable solutions.


----------



## miahallen

Sony's go one too!

http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&identifier=S_4KTV


----------



## Lee Stewart

The Sony, Toshiba and LG 84" 4K 3DTVs will sell for $20,000+ each.


----------



## Richard Paul

I recently checked on the price of 300 MHz HDMI chips and they tend to cost about $2 more than 225 MHz HDMI chips. As such hopefully the lack of 3D TVs this year that could accept 1080p60 Frame Packing was due to their development time.


----------



## Ilya Volk

Richard, I think 3D devices with 1080p60 support will not appear without new HDMI standard.


They planned to release it in "mid 2012".

http://www.hdmiforum.org/Documents/2011_10_31_HDMI_Forum_Orientation_FINAL.pdf 


> Quote:
> Goals
> 
> Develop feature set for HDMI Specification v2.0, with the intent to release the next version of the specification in mid-2012.



Then in "late 2012"

http://www.hdmiforum.org/faq.aspx 


> Quote:
> When does the HDMI Forum expect to release the next version of the HDMI Specification?
> 
> The HDMI Forum Members and the Board of Directors intend to have the next version of the HDMI Specification available for release sometime in late-2012.
> 
> 
> When does the HDMI Forum expect work to begin on the next version of the HDMI Specification?
> 
> The Technology Working Group is currently working on the next version of the HDMI Specification with a late-2012 target release date.



Absolutely no news since then. Zero. It looks like we have to wait another year.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ilya Volk*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22398894
> 
> 
> Richard, I think 3D devices with 1080p60 support will not appear without new HDMI standard.
> 
> They planned to release it in "mid 2012".
> http://www.hdmiforum.org/Documents/2011_10_31_HDMI_Forum_Orientation_FINAL.pdf


300 MHz HDMI chips are capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing and can be found in several current consumer products. The need for more bandwidth with the next HDMI specification is due to 2160p (also called 4K). Here is a link to a post that I made on this subject from several months ago and here is a link to a YouTube video of the CES 2012 HDMI press conference (starting at 11:40 in the video) where it was announced that the next HDMI specification would support 2160p60. HDMI is not currently capable of 2160p60 since it requires four times the bandwidth of 1080p60 and twice the bandwidth of 1080p60 Frame Packing.


----------



## Ilya Volk




> Quote:
> 300 MHz HDMI chips are capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing and can be found in several current consumer products. The need for more bandwidth with the next HDMI specification is due to 2160p (also called 4K).



Richard, I've read this thread and saw the video from HDMI press conference.


Yes, the HDMI chips with enough bandwidth are already available, more than one year.

The question is why we still don't see new TVs/projectors supporting FullHD [email protected] over HDMI? It's been a lot of time, why are manufacturers still do not use these 300 MHz chips?


In my opinon, it looks like they are still waiting for the new HDMI spec.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ilya Volk*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22406499
> 
> 
> Richard, I've read this thread and saw the video from HDMI press conference.
> 
> Yes, the HDMI chips with enough bandwidth are already available, more than one year.
> 
> The question is why we still don't see new TVs/projectors supporting FullHD [email protected] over HDMI?


In my opinion it may just be an issue of development time. From what I have read it is common for the design of TVs to be finished a year before they start being sold to consumers. This to allow for the amount of time needed for testing the design (such as the entire video processing chain), shipping components between factories, mass production of the product, and than shipping the product to the various countries where it will be sold. As such 2012 3D TVs were designed a year ahead of when they were sold and as seen in this Silicon Image press release the first 300 MHz HDMI chips from Silicon Image were announced on May 24, 2011. And important issues for 300 MHz HDMI chips such as mass production time and price may not have been known for months after they started sampling.


Now as for why we have seen video cards that used 300 MHz HDMI chips it is because they can literally just be added to a graphics card which makes for a much quicker process. As for the Blu-ray players with 4K output since they are simply using 4K upscaling chips that connect to 4K HDMI chips the design process is simple compared to a TV. AV receivers are more complex but many are simpler than a TV and some of the AV receivers released this year that could do 4K over HDMI only supported it for upscaling/output. As such I am hoping that the lack of 3D TVs this year that could accept 1080p60 Frame Packing was due to their development time.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ilya Volk*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22406499
> 
> 
> In my opinon, it looks like they are still waiting for the new HDMI spec.


Well in terms of the vast majority of 2013 3D TVs the CE companies have already finished designing them. They either used 300 MHz HDMI chips or they did not.


----------



## Lee Stewart

So again I have to ask - what is the purpose of HDMI chips that can do 1080x60P per eye 3D when there is no content like that? It's just like HDMI.org saying that HDMI 1.3 was capable of handling Deep Color.


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22423949
> 
> 
> So again I have to ask - what is the purpose of HDMI chips that can do 1080x60P per eye 3D when there is no content like that?


Well now that there are video cards capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing output HTPCs can certainly do it.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22425074
> 
> 
> Well now that there are video cards capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing output HTPCs can certainly do it.



Are there any PC 3D games that use 1080x60P FP?


----------



## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22425788
> 
> 
> Are there any PC 3D games that use 1080x60P FP?


As long as the PC game can render correctly in 3D than it is only an issue of whether the computer is powerful enough to render at that frame rate. There have been 1080p120 3D computer monitors on the market since 2009 that used dual-link DVI (more recent models support it over DisplayPort as well). Here is a link to an article from tomshardware that did a comparison between the 3D systems used by AMD and NVIDIA.


----------



## motorman45

I have been playing Call of Duty and Portal 2 in 3D with my dual stack passive projector set and my filter set in 1080p 60fps for a while now with two optoma projectors and my custom gaming PC with an Nvidia quadro dual DVI card. if i had better hardware the games could easily do faster FPS.


----------



## Flavius

The new Sony ES high end receiver line for 2012 does NOT support 1080p60 3D passthrough in Frame Packing mode according to manual, even though it supports 4K passthrough!. I wonder about the HX950 TV.


This is seriously going to suck for next gen consoles. I wonder if that's why they're being pushed back so much (Sony and MS at least). I can only imagine next gen consoles will do 1080p at 60FPS for all content, so having to drop to 30FPS for 3D content would be harsh.


----------



## Flavius

Speaking of which, I'd like to know of one CONFIRMED receiver than can do the 1080p60 Frame Packing passthrough. I don't think the Yamaha receivers can actually do it, even with 4K, as my Sony ES receiver made last month with 4K passthrough can't do it, according to manual. It can only do 1080p30 with FP.


----------



## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22426459
> 
> 
> As long as the PC game can render correctly in 3D than it is only an issue of whether the computer is powerful enough to render at that frame rate. There have been 1080p120 3D computer monitors on the market since 2009 that used dual-link DVI (more recent models support it over DisplayPort as well). Here is a link to an article from tomshardware that did a comparison between the 3D systems used by AMD and NVIDIA.



Ok - but you have been promoting this HDMI 300Mhz chip and it's capabilities. Dual-link DVI is a whole different animal.


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## Lee Stewart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Flavius*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22426673
> 
> 
> The new Sony ES high end receiver line for 2012 does NOT support 1080p60 3D passthrough in Frame Packing mode according to manual, even though it supports 4K passthrough!. I wonder about the HX950 TV.
> 
> This is seriously going to suck for next gen consoles. I wonder if that's why they're being pushed back so much (Sony and MS at least). I can only imagine next gen consoles will do 1080p at 60FPS for all content, so having to drop to 30FPS for 3D content would be harsh.



It gets worse than that. Just think of all the receivers and BD players people are buying now and previously. When they find out they will have to upgrade again because HDMI.org will be releasing a new version (1.5?) later this year that will deal with 4K 48 and 60 fps. Even the new 84" 4K TVs from LG and Sony can't do those. Only 24 and 30 fps.


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## Flavius




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22426722
> 
> 
> It gets worse than that. Just think of all the receivers and BD players people are buying now and previously. When they find out they will have to upgrade again because HDMI.org will be releasing a new version (1.5?) later this year that will deal with 4K 48 and 60 fps. Even the new 84" 4K TVs from LG and Sony can't do those. Only 24 and 30 fps.



I just spent $600 on a new ES receiver and pre-ordered a 65HX950 TV... neither of which will likely be able to do 1080p60 Frame Packing. If the next gen of Sony and MS consoles CAN, I will be royally pissed. $6000 and I can't even do 60FPS 3D.


I might as well give up on 1080p60 3D completely right now and hope I can get it in another 4 or 5 years when I upgrade to a 70"+ OLED.


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## tory40




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22425788
> 
> 
> Are there any PC 3D games that use 1080x60P FP?


All of them can in the same way Nvidia lets them do 720x60p FP. As i understand it, the 224mhz of the current HDMI chip just isn't fast enough to shovel all that pixel data fast enough. So the speed of the processor is the only limitation. I don't understand why any of this stuff can't be totally backwards compatible.


Interesting to note the framerate difference between 1080p and 720p using 3D. Its just a huge waste of technology potential. Its really sad to me. Im putting off playing games because I keep wondering if the new chips will be incorporated soon.


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## Richard Paul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Flavius*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22426673
> 
> 
> The new Sony ES high end receiver line for 2012 does NOT support 1080p60 3D passthrough in Frame Packing mode according to manual, even though it supports 4K passthrough!. I wonder about the HX950 TV.


That is unfortunate to hear and just a guess but it might be due to the video processing chip that Sony used in that AV receiver.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22426717
> 
> 
> Ok - but you have been promoting this HDMI 300Mhz chip and it's capabilities. Dual-link DVI is a whole different animal.


You asked whether PC games could do 1080p60 Frame Packing so that is why I mentioned that 1080p120 3D computer monitors have been on the market since 2009 that used dual-link DVI (and more recently DisplayPort). As such based on everything I have read there are many PC games that will be able to take advantage of 1080p60 Frame Packing over HDMI once there are 3D TVs capable of it.


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## tory40

All games do basic 3D. The reason this is, is that Nvidia and 3rd party drivers can access the rendering system. Since 3D computer games [by that i mean games that have a virtual 3rd dimension to them, ie, not side scrolling games like super mario brothers] are rendered in 3 dimensions, all the data to determine where things need to be on the screen already exists and just has to be read by the 3D software. Nvidia has direct access to its video cards, which juggle all this stuff on the fly. Tridef 3rd party drivers access DirectX drivers I think, in part at least. So all game world itself and the models will be rendered in 3D.


The problem a few games have that are not designed with 3D in mind is that some of the elements in the game are not rendered at the real world equivalent depth, ie, the moon doesn't need to be a million miles away to look real, so in a couple games it look like its 15ft above you, and tiny. Special effects are often in 2D as well and shadows are sometimes not at the right depth, making it look like you were looking out of a window, but the shadows appeared on the glass.


Tridef, Nvidia and the 3D community frequently make their own fixes for these problems or work with the game developer to fix them. Skyrim for example, had loads of problems and was made perfect by a guy who calls himself Helix. Dead Space 2 was also a mess, then completely fixed by Helix. Alan Wake was fixed after release in response to community requests. However, many games are just rendered correctly to begin with.


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## Flavius

So not only do the latest Sony ES top of the line receivers not support 1080p60 FP, (only 1080p30 FP), but the latest high end Sony HX950 TVs released this fall have the same limitation! So I think we can kiss hopes and talk of 1080p60 FP goodbye unless we are talking specialized PC setups, or maybe OLED in the coming years. Sad.


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## Lee Stewart

With HDMI.org annnouncing a new version of HDMI shortly, does it make sense for the CEMs to use a chip that will be outdated in just a few months?


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## Flavius




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lee Stewart*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22430627
> 
> 
> With HDMI.org annnouncing a new version of HDMI shortly, does it make sense for the CEMs to use a chip that will be outdated in just a few months?



Sadly they will anyway, until the HDMI spec change forces their hand. If it saves them even $1, they won't add it in. They will see the new spec as a reason to create new devices to sell you. CEMs will never future proof anything, its against their bottom line. I see HDMI.org as the FDA of electronics. Without it, we'd all be eating contaminated meat.


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## miahallen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tory40*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22427815
> 
> 
> All of them can in the same way Nvidia lets them do 720x60p FP. As i understand it, the 224mhz of the current HDMI chip just isn't fast enough to shovel all that pixel data fast enough. So the speed of the processor is the only limitation. I don't understand why any of this stuff can't be totally backwards compatible.
> 
> Interesting to note the framerate difference between 1080p and 720p using 3D. Its just a huge waste of technology potential. Its really sad to me. Im putting off playing games because I keep wondering if the new chips will be incorporated soon.


Yup, this list is pretty deceptive because its so short. There are literally hundereds that have official support from 3D Vision, and thousands that will work without official support.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Paul*  /t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22428235
> 
> 
> As such based on everything I have read there are many PC games that will be able to take advantage of 1080p60 Frame Packing over HDMI once there are 3D TVs capable of it.


Correct!


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## tory40

@miahallen


Right, just about any PC game will use 3D. That list was just to show one of the frustrations us 3D PC gamers have when looking at the situation, as it takes very little power to run at full 1080p over 720p, despite 1080p having over twice the amount of pixels to render. The scaling at 720p is pretty tough to bare after looking at what your missing, apparently all over 66mhz of processing power.


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## motorman45

it seems like display technology has always lagged behind PC video processing power. there is little reason that 120hz is not available in projectors and displays. 1080p60 is possible now, ive been doing it with two projectors running from a PC.


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## Ilya Volk

"1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a will be possible in 2012" Guess not!


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## psolord

Any 120Hz native input HDTV news from CES?


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## tory40

I didn't see anything yet. Neil Schneider of MTBS3D.com said they would have interviewed Steve Vinuti again this year but apparently he was absent. Neil did mention he got "some of the answers we need" from other vendors, but hasn't uploaded any videos yet.


This was in a newsletter from HDMI:


> Quote:
> Update on the status of the next version of the HDMI Specification
> 
> 
> The HDMI Forum, Inc. was launched in October 2011 to allow for broad industry participation in the development of the future versions of the HDMI Specification. Currently, its 83 Members are actively and collectively working on finalizing the next version of the HDMI Specification. HDMI Forum, Inc. has targeted the first half of 2013 for the release of the next version of the HDMI Specification.



..but that doesn't guarantee new chips will be used in 1080p TV's.


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## Ilya Volk

So it was "mid 2012", then "late 2012" now "first half of 2013"... I see how it is. I guess we'll have it by 2017.


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## tory40

The MTBS3D CES coverage begins today.


Also, someone pointed this out to me:


Dual Link Dvi projectors. Just seeing this now, so not sure how many but there seems to be more than 2 that do 3D and some have a 2560x1600 resolution.

http://www.projectiondesign.com/products 


EDIT: The F35 model is 20k....nevermind.


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## Paul33993

The fact that Silicon Image is selling the 300Mhz chip on their website for 6 dollars and nobody bothered to use it means I'm just giving up. Between manufacturers not caring about this and completely ignoring input lag, I'll continue doing 3D on my PC monitor ([email protected]). Hopefully when the Oculus Rift consumer edition comes out, that'll end me even caring about big screen 3D anymore.


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