# stay away from Control4



## Henry Tsang

We installed Control4 system in our new home five years ago. Ever since we became hostages of the dealer. Control4 system is dealer originated system - every little changes, updates - you need to call your dealer for services. Since technology changes so fast and our needs changes, it is very frustrating to rely on the dealer to keep up the Control4 system to an optimal condition at all time. I wish I could undo all the wiring and installation of the Control4 system in my house to gain my control back.


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## ezlotogura

Henry Tsang said:


> We installed Control4 system in our new home five years ago. Ever since we became hostages of the dealer. Control4 system is dealer originated system - every little changes, updates - you need to call your dealer for services. Since technology changes so fast and our needs changes, it is very frustrating to rely on the dealer to keep up the Control4 system to an optimal condition at all time. I wish I could undo all the wiring and installation of the Control4 system in my house to gain my control back.


Hi Henry
I just want to correct a few statements - every little change regarding programming DOES NOT need dealer interaction. Control4 is the only major home automation system (Crestron, Savant, etc) that offers the home owner software (1 time fee) that they can use to PROGRAM ANYTHING and make any changes to how the system performs. If you need to add hardware then yes you need a dealer to add to the system but 95% of those hardware devices can be "installed" remotely in the program if you can do the wiring yourself and physically do the install. There are many reputable programmers who do remote programming for a living and charge a fraction of an onsite visit.

So if you are handy and can install the devices, you can find people who will charge you a nominal fee to put it into your system, then you can use the software and program anything and everything. How often are you adding a new TV, streaming device, etc into your house?

No one every said Control4 was a totally open platform - it is advertised as dealer only. And if you have a bad dealer you'll have a bad experience. I once had a bad auto mechanic, so I switched to someone else and now I get better service with a new mechanic.


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## AidenL

I would agree with Henry.

I'm in the middle of a very bad, ongoing experience with Control 4. 

I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, its flaky and unreliable.


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## ezlotogura

AidenL said:


> I would agree with Henry.
> 
> I'm in the middle of a very bad, ongoing experience with Control 4.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, its flaky and unreliable.


Again I will not disagree. People have bad Savant systems, Crestron systems, etc. Does not make the system bad. 95% of problems can be traced to the dealer or your home network set up (which can be one in the same if the dealer set up your equipment).

People build new homes and have issues with their plumber, does not mean people should stay away from all toilets in the future! Just get a new plumber.

You can knock C4 for being a dealer centric system, you can call it expensive compared to DIY systems, but it is by far crap or flakey when set up properly.

There are people I can refer you to and a very helpful public user forum that would be of service to you to help you troubleshoot your issues.


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## AidenL

ezlotogura said:


> AidenL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would agree with Henry.
> 
> I'm in the middle of a very bad, ongoing experience with Control 4.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, its flaky and unreliable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again I will not disagree. People have bad Savant systems, Crestron systems, etc. Does not make the system bad. 95% of problems can be traced to the dealer or your home network set up (which can be one in the same if the dealer set up your equipment).
> 
> People build new homes and have issues with their plumber, does not mean people should stay away from all toilets in the future! Just get a new plumber.
> 
> You can knock C4 for being a dealer centric system, you can call it expensive compared to DIY systems, but it is by far crap or flakey when set up properly.
> 
> There are people I can refer you to and a very helpful public user forum that would be of service to you to help you troubleshoot your issues.
Click to expand...

I'd be happy to receive your recommendations if you are able to share,


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## ezlotogura

AidenL said:


> I'd be happy to receive your recommendations if you are able to share,


I'll send you a PM


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## bigbarney

ezlotogura said:


> Again I will not disagree. People have bad Savant systems, Crestron systems, etc. Does not make the system bad. 95% of problems can be traced to the dealer or your home network set up (which can be one in the same if the dealer set up your equipment).
> 
> People build new homes and have issues with their plumber, does not mean people should stay away from all toilets in the future! Just get a new plumber.
> .


I think you have missed the point.

I don't think bad systems (or badly installed systems) are what is being discussed here. It's being forced to pay for a service call every time something goes wrong or every time you want to make an adjustment, update, or just plain system maintenance.

It's the newest fad these days in electronics..... the GENERATING of service calls, and it's going on in just about every sector you can think of. A lot of these electronic control systems are come with some form of lockout so the customer is at the mercy of the install/maintenance people. Many newer electronic household thermostats have "installer codes" and the customer can't get in to make programming adjustments without calling the service tech. Alarm systems have "installer codes" and believe it or not, even today's newer computer based farm tractors now have "installer codes".

Now some companies try not to take these lockout systems too seriously, and others hold you at ransom with every single twist and turn that there is. I think THIS is the point that is being made.


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## Dean Roddey

To be fair, if you are the one who is going to be blamed if something goes wrong, then you will tend to not want anyone but you making changes. You can tell the customer, "If you make changes and anything goes wrong, I'm going to charge you $ per hour for however long it takes to figure out what's wrong and fix it. Even if it turns out not to be your fault, because you have changed the system, I have to prove first that your changes aren't the problem and evaluate how they may have affected things." And they may say yes, but if that ever actually happens, it probably won't go well. So the more straightforward position for many installers is: I am where the buck stops, so I will make all changes. If you want to DIY, then DIY.


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## ezlotogura

bigbarney said:


> I think you have missed the point.
> 
> I don't think bad systems (or badly installed systems) are what is being discussed here. It's being forced to pay for a service call every time something goes wrong or every time you want to make an adjustment, update, or just plain system maintenance.
> 
> It's the newest fad these days in electronics..... the GENERATING of service calls, and it's going on in just about every sector you can think of. A lot of these electronic control systems are come with some form of lockout so the customer is at the mercy of the install/maintenance people. Many newer electronic household thermostats have "installer codes" and the customer can't get in to make programming adjustments without calling the service tech. Alarm systems have "installer codes" and believe it or not, even today's newer computer based farm tractors now have "installer codes".
> 
> Now some companies try not to take these lockout systems too seriously, and others hold you at ransom with every single twist and turn that there is. I think THIS is the point that is being made.


If the original poster made a large investment in c4 unknowing it was a dealer only system the blame falls on their lap because no one markets C4 as DIY and they did not do their homework. If they did purchase knowing its not 100% DIY - then why complain? It is the most DIY of the "major" platforms without a doubt because of Composer HE but its not DIY. So why bash a product that is not falsely marketed because you do not like the decision you made as a buyer?

C4 does strike a very nice balance - it can truly operate and work with 10,000's of items. You can do all of your own programming. You just need a dealer to put the device in the project. When I buy from my dealer he won't charge me to bind the device in the project. If I buy gear on my own he'll do it - it takes a mere few minutes, they do it remote and then I can program. It is also nice they have a very active user forum where dealers and end users help each other out and though it is DIY for programming, if I am stuck I can turn to a dealer or the forum for help. It is not perfect, but as far as the bigger commercially available systems go, it is fairly robust and I think "sucks" is a bit harsh considering you knew what you were purchasing.


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## FlyingDiver

OP was hit and run. That was his only post ever on these forums. We all know he's wrong, time to kill this thread.


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## AidenL

ezlotogura said:


> If the original poster made a large investment in c4 unknowing it was a dealer only system the blame falls on their lap because no one markets C4 as DIY and they did not do their homework. If they did purchase knowing its not 100% DIY - then why complain? It is the most DIY of the "major" platforms without a doubt because of Composer HE but its not DIY. So why bash a product that is not falsely marketed because you do not like the decision you made as a buyer?
> 
> C4 does strike a very nice balance - it can truly operate and work with 10,000's of items. You can do all of your own programming. You just need a dealer to put the device in the project. When I buy from my dealer he won't charge me to bind the device in the project. If I buy gear on my own he'll do it - it takes a mere few minutes, they do it remote and then I can program. It is also nice they have a very active user forum where dealers and end users help each other out and though it is DIY for programming, if I am stuck I can turn to a dealer or the forum for help. It is not perfect, but as far as the bigger commercially available systems go, it is fairly robust and I think "sucks" is a bit harsh considering you knew what you were purchasing.


There must be something wrong with my Composer HE then, because it can't even set a new wake up.

Is there a good online users guide or YouTube tutorial on how to get to grips with using HE efficiently, and troubleshooting it?

I do realise the bulk of he fault is with my dealer - yet he blames me when the apps don't work for example and charges me every time to fix something which did work, and then just stops working. 

It's very frustrating and is leading me to think that I need to cut my losses.


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## ezlotogura

There are YouTube clips. Also look at https://www.control4.com/docs/produ.../latest/composer-he-getting-started-rev-r.pdf and also an older but still basically relevant link in https://www.control4.com/documentation/Composer_HE_User_Guide/Programming_Basics.htm

There is also c4forums.com - very active user group of both end users, dealers, c4 employees and driver writers. There is a sub forum just for programming with composer HE. I highly doubt your first question will stump the crowd. People like helping and sharing ways to accomplish different programming tasks

In a PM I referred you to someone you can help. I gave my first dealer too much time and wasted too much energy. I cut bait got a new dealer and it makes a world of difference.


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## Zuhair

ezlotogura said:


> I'll send you a PM


I'm on the same boat! Can you please PM me?


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## Aslan

We have C4 and that has been a sore point with us. I don't need a tech to come out when I buy a printer, I simply tell my MacBook about it and start using it. Actually, I don't even have to do that anymore, it tells me it sees a new device and would I like to use it.

I've purchased Hue and LIFX lamps and it takes me but a few seconds to tell Alexa and Siri about them and I've got full control—no tech necessary. If I want C4 to control them then that's another story. A complicated, expensive and time consuming story.

We got a demo blackout shade and again it took just a couple of minutes to have Alexa telling it to go up, down or to a preset—without a tech. Even once there's a driver I'm told that C4 will require a tech.

I'd guess that very soon Alexa and Siri will auto-recognize TV's, DVR's, security panels, surveillance cameras, weather stations, clothes dryers, thermostats, and all manor or things.


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## ezlotogura

Aslan said:


> We have C4 and that has been a sore point with us. I don't need a tech to come out when I buy a printer, I simply tell my MacBook about it and start using it. Actually, I don't even have to do that anymore, it tells me it sees a new device and would I like to use it.
> 
> I've purchased Hue and LIFX lamps and it takes me but a few seconds to tell Alexa and Siri about them and I've got full control—no tech necessary. If I want C4 to control them then that's another story. A complicated, expensive and time consuming story.
> 
> We got a demo blackout shade and again it took just a couple of minutes to have Alexa telling it to go up, down or to a preset—without a tech. Even once there's a driver I'm told that C4 will require a tech.
> 
> I'd guess that very soon Alexa and Siri will auto-recognize TV's, DVR's, security panels, surveillance cameras, weather stations, clothes dryers, thermostats, and all manor or things.


What you are describing is control, not automation. Having Alexa control your blinds is different from setting up complex tasks in an ecosystem with different hardware. When my housekeeper comes over my she puts a code into the kwikset lock at the front door. The DSC alarm turns off, the regular old ceiling lights turn on, sonos turns on to her favorite channel and I get at push notice that she came. When she leaves, she has to press 1 button - the door locks, music turns off, alarm engages, lights turn off, and I get a push notification she left and I get another push notification at 6pm to remind me to run the washing machine to clean her rags. That is automation. When I get home from work and hit 1 button my garage opens, my basement door unlocks, the basement hallway lights go on, sonos turns of my favorite music station, etc. 

Those are just 2 simple examples of day to day life that is automated by Control4.

When Alexa (aka Amazon) or Apple or Google can do full home automation I'll play closer attention. Right now Amazon, Google and Apple are basically control devices AND C4 can see them and you can control your C4 automation with those devices. Homekit was Apple's attempt into automation. That was WWDC 2014. Look at all the things you list, 3 years and its still not here. I do not see it showing up overnight and controlling 1,000+ devices like C4, Crestron, Savant, URC, etc can all do. I think if Apple or Google or Amazon are going to make a big play they may buy out one of the companies I listed vs starting on their own.

Buy composer HE - its a 1 time fee of $149. You can program everything in C4 you just cannot add hardware to the project. Get a remote dealer, couple minutes they ID the hardware, plop in the drivers, then you can do all the programming you want.

Long story short, if you have a good dealer and a proper design and layout of what tasks you want accomplished the beauty is that you never have to see or touch C4, it just does its thing in the background.


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## smoothtlk

There are several systems that do full automation (not just control) that are DIY friendly as well. It doesn't require a dealer to do sophisticated tasks. For those that aren't geeked with figuring technical things out or just don't have the time, then a dealer is a great resource. Our system caters to both models (and blended).


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## Aslan

smoothtlk said:


> Our system caters to both models (and blended).


You should perhaps spell and grammar check your website:

"We expect to attend is CEDIA 2017 in San Diego."


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## Aslan

ezlotogura said:


> What you are describing is control, not automation. ... You can program everything in C4 you just cannot add hardware to the project. Get a remote dealer, couple minutes they ID the hardware, plop in the drivers, then you can do all the programming you want.


I shouldn't have to find, wait for and pay that remote dealer. 

I should be able to buy a thermostat or door lock or Anthem receiver or LIFX lamp or Tesla Model 3 or Davis weather station or Rachio irrigation controller or a Miele oven or a security camera or DSC security panel and have my C4 system (or RTI or Savant or ...) recognize it, query it for its capabilities, and make it fully available for scripting. My phone can do that. And my MacBook. And sort of my AppleTV. And sort of Amazon Echo. 

You are correct though that scripting is quite limited today. These other systems are good at integrating new hardware and software. C4, Savant, RTI, Crestron and others are good (or sort of good) at scripting. We should toss them all in a meld machine and maybe we can get some systems that are good at both. I expect someone, likely Apple, Amazon, and Google, will offer that.

BTW, I am not at all anti-integrator or opposed to hiring an integrator. Though I'm somewhat capable myself I'll gladly hire an integrator to install stuff or run wires or write scripts. I'll heartily recommend an integrator to friends and family who want stuff and aren't capable of doing it properly themselves. I just don't like being forced to use an integrator for small stuff that should take a few minutes of my time.


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## smoothtlk

Aslan said:


> You should perhaps spell and grammar check your website:
> 
> "We expect to attend is CEDIA 2017 in San Diego."


thanx for visiting...I think we fixed that one. Thanx for the catch.


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## MOTILAC

ezlotogura said:


> What you are describing is control, not automation. Having Alexa control your blinds is different from setting up complex tasks in an ecosystem with different hardware. When my housekeeper comes over my she puts a code into the kwikset lock at the front door. The DSC alarm turns off, the regular old ceiling lights turn on, sonos turns on to her favorite channel and I get at push notice that she came. When she leaves, she has to press 1 button - the door locks, music turns off, alarm engages, lights turn off, and I get a push notification she left and I get another push notification at 6pm to remind me to run the washing machine to clean her rags. That is automation. When I get home from work and hit 1 button my garage opens, my basement door unlocks, the basement hallway lights go on, sonos turns of my favorite music station, etc.
> 
> 
> Those are just 2 simple examples of day to day life that is automated by Control4.
> 
> When Alexa (aka Amazon) or Apple or Google can do full home automation I'll play closer attention. Right now Amazon, Google and Apple are basically control devices AND C4 can see them and you can control your C4 automation with those devices. Homekit was Apple's attempt into automation. That was WWDC 2014. Look at all the things you list, 3 years and its still not here. I do not see it showing up overnight and controlling 1,000+ devices like C4, Crestron, Savant, URC, etc can all do. I think if Apple or Google or Amazon are going to make a big play they may buy out one of the companies I listed vs starting on their own.
> 
> Buy composer HE - its a 1 time fee of $149. You can program everything in C4 you just cannot add hardware to the project. Get a remote dealer, couple minutes they ID the hardware, plop in the drivers, then you can do all the programming you want.
> 
> Long story short, if you have a good dealer and a proper design and layout of what tasks you want accomplished the beauty is that you never have to see or touch C4, it just does its thing in the background.


I can do all of this with Google Home and Smart Things.

B.T.W., I am a Certified Crestron Programmer. And, I understand everything these folks are complaining about with their C4 systems.


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## ezlotogura

Aslan said:


> I shouldn't have to find, wait for and pay that remote dealer.


You do not have to do any of those things. C4 is advertised as a dealer product. You can get a product that is DIY if you think it fits your needs. The original title of this thread was C4 was crap and there was nothing to back it up. It may not be for you, but its not crap.

If you are on a tech forum with 1,000's of posts you are likely a DIY and would not like the C4 proposition.


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## ezlotogura

MOTILAC said:


> I can do all of this with Google Home and Smart Things.
> 
> B.T.W., I am a Certified Crestron Programmer. And, I understand everything these folks are complaining about with their C4 systems.


Their audio option is just 1 option, Bose, and its limited to 8 streaming options vs 30+ on Sonos - and I also do not see how you would easily use the Bose products in a matrix set up like you can with a few sonos connects and then a matrix switch and amps. How does Smart Things handle multi video distribution? Just curious how you handle a driveway gate in Smart Things or how you handle pool/Jacuzzi/steam room operation in Smart Things? How does these things all tie in to using 1 app to control everything so if you want to turn on the pool or turn on music or do something to lights you just pull up the Smart Things app and its all there on one screen? Maybe these things are possible on Smart Things for the average home owner to set up. 

If you are a certified Crestron tech I would like to think you know the difference between C4/Crestron/Savant, etc vs Smart Things. And if you think Smart Things is just as good as Crestron then I am also hoping you are finding another career because Crestron will be dead shortly by Samsung selling $150 Smart Things hubs.

This isnt an attack, its just trying to refute the original point the original poster made that "c4 sucks" and the reasons why people agree are false. It does not suck because you need a dealer. That just means it is not the right system for you. I am adding these responses to the forum so if someone in 2 weeks or 2 months or 2 years stumbles on this thread they are properly informed, that's all.

I have Control4 and I've recommended C4 and non C4 (smartthings type set ups) to family and friends - different strokes for different folks.


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## ahard

ezlotogura said:


> Their audio option is just 1 option, Bose, and its limited to 8 streaming options vs 30+ on Sonos - and I also do not see how you would easily use the Bose products in a matrix set up like you can with a few sonos connects and then a matrix switch and amps. How does Smart Things handle multi video distribution? Just curious how you handle a driveway gate in Smart Things or how you handle pool/Jacuzzi/steam room operation in Smart Things? How does these things all tie in to using 1 app to control everything so if you want to turn on the pool or turn on music or do something to lights you just pull up the Smart Things app and its all there on one screen? Maybe these things are possible on Smart Things for the average home owner to set up.
> 
> If you are a certified Crestron tech I would like to think you know the difference between C4/Crestron/Savant, etc vs Smart Things. And if you think Smart Things is just as good as Crestron then I am also hoping you are finding another career because Crestron will be dead shortly by Samsung selling $150 Smart Things hubs.
> 
> This isnt an attack, its just trying to refute the original point the original poster made that "c4 sucks" and the reasons why people agree are false. It does not suck because you need a dealer. That just means it is not the right system for you. I am adding these responses to the forum so if someone in 2 weeks or 2 months or 2 years stumbles on this thread they are properly informed, that's all.
> 
> I have Control4 and I've recommended C4 and non C4 (smartthings type set ups) to family and friends - different strokes for different folks.


I'm not replying to bash Control4. I like what Control4 does and it is a fine system. Whether you use Control4 or SmartThings, they're all connected home implementations, as the CEO of Control4 said in an interview several months ago. I just want to address a few of the things you mentioned in your post so that users who come here looking for info have a fuller picture. 

GE/Jasco has a Z-wave product they introduced earlier this year that can control pools and gates. I don't know if that product has been tested with SmartThings, but it does work with the Z-wave hub that I use.

Alarm.com integrates with Nuvo for multiroom audio and Alarm.com is a Z-wave based system in which you can add your own devices after the alarm company installs the system. An Alarm.com connected home could do the same thing that you do in your system in one app. Alarm.com has door locks, thermostats, lighting control, motion sensors, garage door control, cameras, music control, blinds/shading, geofencing and so forth.

For video control, someone on an Alarm.com system or SmartThings can do what I've done in my system. Add a Harmony Companion or above with the Harmony hub. Integrate the Harmony hub with Alarm.com or SmartThings using IFTTT. If you want to control multiple tvs via Alexa, download the Yonomi app, setup the remaining Harmony hubs in Yonomi in and you're done. Then you can control the home audio/video systems with Alexa or Google Home, the Harmony app or the app of the control system (Alarm.com, Smartthing etc.). 

In my system, I can enter the geofence that I've setup near my home and the av systems turns on, the lights activate, the garage door opens, the thermostat goes into the current mode, the hub changes to the home mode. I can punch a code into my Schlage Z-wave locks and have the av system turn on as well as all of the other stuff. When I leave the house I can tell Alexa to turn on Away and everything will turn off, lock or close (like blinds or the garage door) and the home will enter Away way 4 minutes later. I can do the same routine by pressing one button on the Schlage lock. When I leave my home for vacation as I did a couple of days ago, I tell Alexa to turn on Vacation and my hub based system will do exactly what Control4's Mockupancy does (sans music). Lights, blinds, av system all turn on/off/open and close at certain times throughout a day. Cams are set to record if the Alarm.com alarm is triggered or motion in detected in various zones around the home. 


Again, I'm not knocking any system. What used to be the province of the upper end of home automation has found it's way down to the middle. Some folks are DIY people and they can do a number of connect home things themselves and feel comfortable installing, setting up, troubleshooting and fixing problems. I think that is what the OP was trying to say, I guess. And then you have people that may not want to do it themselves and for those folks Control4, RTI, Savant, Elan, Creston, Alarm.com & ADT offer connected home solutions for them. We all end up at the same place; how we got there will be different.


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## ezlotogura

ahard said:


> I'm not replying to bash Control4. I like what Control4 does and it is a fine system. Whether you use Control4 or SmartThings, they're all connected home implementations, as the CEO of Control4 said in an interview several months ago. I just want to address a few of the things you mentioned in your post so that users who come here looking for info have a fuller picture.
> 
> GE/Jasco has a Z-wave product they introduced earlier this year that can control pools and gates. I don't know if that product has been tested with SmartThings, but it does work with the Z-wave hub that I use.
> 
> Alarm.com integrates with Nuvo for multiroom audio and Alarm.com is a Z-wave based system in which you can add your own devices after the alarm company installs the system. An Alarm.com connected home could do the same thing that you do in your system in one app. Alarm.com has door locks, thermostats, lighting control, motion sensors, garage door control, cameras, music control, blinds/shading, geofencing and so forth.
> 
> For video control, someone on an Alarm.com system or SmartThings can do what I've done in my system. Add a Harmony Companion or above with the Harmony hub. Integrate the Harmony hub with Alarm.com or SmartThings using IFTTT. If you want to control multiple tvs via Alexa, download the Yonomi app, setup the remaining Harmony hubs in Yonomi in and you're done. Then you can control the home audio/video systems with Alexa or Google Home, the Harmony app or the app of the control system (Alarm.com, Smartthing etc.).
> 
> In my system, I can enter the geofence that I've setup near my home and the av systems turns on, the lights activate, the garage door opens, the thermostat goes into the current mode, the hub changes to the home mode. I can punch a code into my Schlage Z-wave locks and have the av system turn on as well as all of the other stuff. When I leave the house I can tell Alexa to turn on Away and everything will turn off, lock or close (like blinds or the garage door) and the home will enter Away way 4 minutes later. I can do the same routine by pressing one button on the Schlage lock. When I leave my home for vacation as I did a couple of days ago, I tell Alexa to turn on Vacation and my hub based system will do exactly what Control4's Mockupancy does (sans music). Lights, blinds, av system all turn on/off/open and close at certain times throughout a day. Cams are set to record if the Alarm.com alarm is triggered or motion in detected in various zones around the home.
> 
> 
> Again, I'm not knocking any system. What used to be the province of the upper end of home automation has found it's way down to the middle. Some folks are DIY people and they can do a number of connect home things themselves and feel comfortable installing, setting up, troubleshooting and fixing problems. I think that is what the OP was trying to say, I guess. And then you have people that may not want to do it themselves and for those folks Control4, RTI, Savant, Elan, Creston, Alarm.com & ADT offer connected home solutions for them. We all end up at the same place; how we got there will be different.


Correct there are several ways to achieve certain goals. Alarm.com does try to push the dealer model as well which is the "complaining point" about C4 above. Alarm.com seems a bit more DIY friendly though for that crowd but at least from their website you still need their support in configuring the system and it appears you have monthly subscription fees?

I was referencing video distribution not just using a remote control to control the TV but to centralize video sources and have them play on any TV in the house. I have 2 cable boxes, some streaming devices, blu ray player, etc and my NAS with movies all centrally located. I can pick any source and play it on any TV. And yes I can control it all with Alexa, the C4 remote, the c4 app, the C4 onscreen menu, etc. I do not need another hub and other apps or hardware to make it work.

not saying one solution is better than the other, just referencing what video distribution is vs using a harmony remote to control your TV (which is nice and I've set up for several family members).

And again I am not saying C4/Crestron/Savant is the only solution. I am just saying they dont suck and they do obviously fill a very big need in the home automation space. And if you think Google/Apple/Amazon is months away from being at that level I personally think the opposite. That's all.


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## ahard

ezlotogura said:


> Correct there are several ways to achieve certain goals. Alarm.com does try to push the dealer model as well which is the "complaining point" about C4 above. Alarm.com seems a bit more DIY friendly though for that crowd but at least from their website you still need their support in configuring the system and it appears you have monthly subscription fees?
> 
> I was referencing video distribution not just using a remote control to control the TV but to centralize video sources and have them play on any TV in the house. I have 2 cable boxes, some streaming devices, blu ray player, etc and my NAS with movies all centrally located. I can pick any source and play it on any TV. And yes I can control it all with Alexa, the C4 remote, the c4 app, the C4 onscreen menu, etc. I do not need another hub and other apps or hardware to make it work.
> 
> not saying one solution is better than the other, just referencing what video distribution is vs using a harmony remote to control your TV (which is nice and I've set up for several family members).
> 
> And again I am not saying C4/Crestron/Savant is the only solution. I am just saying they dont suck and they do obviously fill a very big need in the home automation space. And if you think Google/Apple/Amazon is months away from being at that level I personally think the opposite. That's all.


I think we're speaking the same language brother. My form of video distro involves Directv genies, Chromecast and Plex. As far as video I have Directv mini-genies on each TV and each mini genie shares the DVR recordings of the parent Genie. So we can play any recording from the main Genie on any of the tvs or any of the tablets and phones that we have. I use Netflix via Google Chromecast and Amazon Prime for streaming. We cast Netflix, Amazon Prime or Youtube to the tvs that have the Google Chromecasts with the help of Harmony or via the cast button in the app. 

To stream videos I have stored on my laptop or NAS I use Plex. I can get the videos via Plex to the Chromecasts by casting directly from the Plex app to the Chromecasts. We can do independent streams to each Chromecast; so one Chromecast will play video 1 while the other Chromecast plays video 2. I can use Alexa via Harmony for input control for the Chromecast. If I had a Google Home I could cast and fire up Nextflix or Plex videos using my voice straight to the Chromecast. There are a lot of options for non-app control. But I can use the one app if I want to. So it's pretty flexible once it's setup. I also use Harmony to turn the av devices on/off or get the projector, blu-ray player, amp and pre-amp going for Movie time. 

But to your larger point we are in agreement.


----------



## MOTILAC

ezlotogura said:


> Their audio option is just 1 option, Bose, and its limited to 8 streaming options vs 30+ on Sonos - and I also do not see how you would easily use the Bose products in a matrix set up like you can with a few sonos connects and then a matrix switch and amps. How does Smart Things handle multi video distribution? Just curious how you handle a driveway gate in Smart Things or how you handle pool/Jacuzzi/steam room operation in Smart Things? How does these things all tie in to using 1 app to control everything so if you want to turn on the pool or turn on music or do something to lights you just pull up the Smart Things app and its all there on one screen? Maybe these things are possible on Smart Things for the average home owner to set up.
> 
> If you are a certified Crestron tech I would like to think you know the difference between C4/Crestron/Savant, etc vs Smart Things. And if you think Smart Things is just as good as Crestron then I am also hoping you are finding another career because Crestron will be dead shortly by Samsung selling $150 Smart Things hubs.
> 
> This isnt an attack, its just trying to refute the original point the original poster made that "c4 sucks" and the reasons why people agree are false. It does not suck because you need a dealer. That just means it is not the right system for you. I am adding these responses to the forum so if someone in 2 weeks or 2 months or 2 years stumbles on this thread they are properly informed, that's all.
> 
> I have Control4 and I've recommended C4 and non C4 (smartthings type set ups) to family and friends - different strokes for different folks.


I only referred to your original, "my system does this......" post. When we get to Audio and Video distribution, of course consumer DIY systems such as Smart Things falls short....for now. More and more, I am hearing from clients that they do Smart Things or Wink with Sonos and Alexa/Google Home....and aren't worried about a centralized video switching system. If you are watching the trending direction of how television/video is being consumed, you'll know that a centralized video switching system is becomming archaic, VERY quickly. To be honest, there ISN'T MUCH TIME LEFT in the residential market for your exampled systems such as Crestron, C4, Savant, etc. And of your mention of Jacuzzi, I do have a client with an app for his Jacuzzi.
Crestron is developing product lines to remain relevant in these changes.....not sure what Savant and C4 are doing...
Bottom line point is, I can do what your home system does, today, for a fraction of the cost, with more power of control and MUCH better ability to adjust to changing devices for the near future. And, I definitely do NOT want the owners of the C4 systems in this post to feel as though THEY made a mistake that it is their own fault....I was a Certified C4 programmer myself....and I am very well aware of what these systems looked like even a few years ago. Having a great dealer is key...but it does go a bit deeper than that.


----------



## ezlotogura

MOTILAC said:


> I only referred to your original, "my system does this......" post. When we get to Audio and Video distribution, of course consumer DIY systems such as Smart Things falls short....for now. More and more, I am hearing from clients that they do Smart Things or Wink with Sonos and Alexa/Google Home....and aren't worried about a centralized video switching system. If you are watching the trending direction of how television/video is being consumed, you'll know that a centralized video switching system is becomming archaic, VERY quickly. To be honest, there ISN'T MUCH TIME LEFT in the residential market for your exampled systems such as Crestron, C4, Savant, etc. And of your mention of Jacuzzi, I do have a client with an app for his Jacuzzi.
> Crestron is developing product lines to remain relevant in these changes.....not sure what Savant and C4 are doing...
> Bottom line point is, I can do what your home system does, today, for a fraction of the cost, with more power of control and MUCH better ability to adjust to changing devices for the near future. And, I definitely do NOT want the owners of the C4 systems in this post to feel as though THEY made a mistake that it is their own fault....I was a Certified C4 programmer myself....and I am very well aware of what these systems looked like even a few years ago. Having a great dealer is key...but it does go a bit deeper than that.


My system isnt better than yours. Yours isnt better than mine. But my system, for my needs, and my budget is better than what you proposed. 

Does your solution cost less- sure it does. Does it offer the features I need, no it doesnt. So again you are not making an apples to apples comparison and you admitted Smart Things does not do audio on its own and people get a separate system, then you say your system does what mine does but better? It does not do Sonos integration which I wanted nor will it integration with a music streaming service where radios are not needed (aka clutter) - my preference was for in wall/in ceiling speakers in bedrooms, kitchen, dining room, etc.

I use video distribution frequently. Not just for cable boxes but I use it for my IP camera system - door bell rings and I get a PiP in the lower corner of the TV showing a live feed of who is at the door. If its after 10pm and before 7am (normal sleeping time for us) and the alarm goes off I get all of my cameras (interior and exterior) to show on the bedroom TV in a 3x2 grid to see if anything is going on. That is all done via my TV distribution system. Which also has Kodi built into it so I get kodi functionality too. And yes it also distributes my cable box signal and blu ray player and other streaming devices. I was also having issues with mounting or locating cable boxes in some rooms so having just a balun is way neater installation. Also helps some people with ARC for audio. 

Again this isnt a pissing contest, but I am just putting the facts out there. C4 isnt "the best". Crestron can do way more and is super more configurable. I think Savant has a nicer UI out of the box. I am just saying it can do a heck of a lot if programmed and designed properly and it can do more and control more than over the shelf hubs like Smart Things. Could that change in a few years, sure. But everyone said HomeKit was putting the CI unit out of business and the CI revenue streams have grown the last few years with the rebound in the housing market, so go figure.

There are many use cases for Smart Things but there are other use cases for CI installed products. As a C4 and Crestron tech yourself I am sure you know that difference after speaking and working with end users.


----------



## MOTILAC

ezlotogura said:


> My system isnt better than yours. Yours isnt better than mine. But my system, for my needs, and my budget is better than what you proposed.
> 
> Does your solution cost less- sure it does. Does it offer the features I need, no it doesnt. So again you are not making an apples to apples comparison and you admitted Smart Things does not do audio on its own and people get a separate system, then you say your system does what mine does but better? It does not do Sonos integration which I wanted nor will it integration with a music streaming service where radios are not needed (aka clutter) - my preference was for in wall/in ceiling speakers in bedrooms, kitchen, dining room, etc.
> 
> I use video distribution frequently. Not just for cable boxes but I use it for my IP camera system - door bell rings and I get a PiP in the lower corner of the TV showing a live feed of who is at the door. If its after 10pm and before 7am (normal sleeping time for us) and the alarm goes off I get all of my cameras (interior and exterior) to show on the bedroom TV in a 3x2 grid to see if anything is going on. That is all done via my TV distribution system. Which also has Kodi built into it so I get kodi functionality too. And yes it also distributes my cable box signal and blu ray player and other streaming devices. I was also having issues with mounting or locating cable boxes in some rooms so having just a balun is way neater installation. Also helps some people with ARC for audio.
> 
> Again this isnt a pissing contest, but I am just putting the facts out there. C4 isnt "the best". Crestron can do way more and is super more configurable. I think Savant has a nicer UI out of the box. I am just saying it can do a heck of a lot if programmed and designed properly and it can do more and control more than over the shelf hubs like Smart Things. Could that change in a few years, sure. But everyone said HomeKit was putting the CI unit out of business and the CI revenue streams have grown the last few years with the rebound in the housing market, so go figure.
> 
> There are many use cases for Smart Things but there are other use cases for CI installed products. As a C4 and Crestron tech yourself I am sure you know that difference after speaking and working with end users.



Well said, and I respect your system and experience! It's actually VERY nice to see a C4 owner passionate about their system and readily stand up for it! I do not mean to downplay your system. You have a great one. What makes your system also very powerful is your knowledge and ability to use Composer HE, and I'm glad you have a great dealer. Respect!
Now, if we could get these others to your level of satisfaction, all would be good.


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## ezlotogura

MOTILAC said:


> Now, if we could get these others to your level of satisfaction, all would be good.


And that is why I jumped into this thread to start. C4 isnt for everyone, but if you went down that route, or purchased a house with that system it is not garbage. Learn what it can do, talk to a dealer about what you want it to do, get a good dealer and its a totally fine system. Learn to use composer HE and it gets even better. Savant and Crestron do not offer editable software like HE. 

Consumer has options and that is what is best for the consumer.


----------



## MOTILAC

ezlotogura said:


> And that is why I jumped into this thread to start. C4 isnt for everyone, but if you went down that route, or purchased a house with that system it is not garbage. Learn what it can do, talk to a dealer about what you want it to do, get a good dealer and its a totally fine system. Learn to use composer HE and it gets even better. Savant and Crestron do not offer editable software like HE.
> 
> Consumer has options and that is what is best for the consumer.


I do need to add this tidbit.... First of all, C4's Composer HE is really cool in that it comes standard, and has from the beginning.
In Crestron-land, I have written scheduler programming and editable programming for clients. This doesn't come standard in all of the systems I've done, but I've done it and it can be added/implemented per client/system. It can be as detailed as the client would like it to be. Due to Crestron's open architecture programming, most anything is possible. Savant? NO WAY, none of this. In Crestron's Pyng system, users have the ability to edit events and schedules much like C4's Composer HE....but right from any of the interfaces/mobile app....and it comes standard.


----------



## ahard

ezlotogura said:


> My system isnt better than yours. Yours isnt better than mine. But my system, for my needs, and my budget is better than what you proposed.
> 
> Does your solution cost less- sure it does. Does it offer the features I need, no it doesnt. So again you are not making an apples to apples comparison and you admitted Smart Things does not do audio on its own and people get a separate system, then you say your system does what mine does but better? It does not do Sonos integration which I wanted nor will it integration with a music streaming service where radios are not needed (aka clutter) - my preference was for in wall/in ceiling speakers in bedrooms, kitchen, dining room, etc.
> 
> I use video distribution frequently. Not just for cable boxes but I use it for my IP camera system - door bell rings and I get a PiP in the lower corner of the TV showing a live feed of who is at the door. If its after 10pm and before 7am (normal sleeping time for us) and the alarm goes off I get all of my cameras (interior and exterior) to show on the bedroom TV in a 3x2 grid to see if anything is going on. That is all done via my TV distribution system. Which also has Kodi built into it so I get kodi functionality too. And yes it also distributes my cable box signal and blu ray player and other streaming devices. I was also having issues with mounting or locating cable boxes in some rooms so having just a balun is way neater installation. Also helps some people with ARC for audio.
> 
> Again this isnt a pissing contest, but I am just putting the facts out there. C4 isnt "the best". Crestron can do way more and is super more configurable. I think Savant has a nicer UI out of the box. I am just saying it can do a heck of a lot if programmed and designed properly and it can do more and control more than over the shelf hubs like Smart Things. Could that change in a few years, sure. But everyone said HomeKit was putting the CI unit out of business and the CI revenue streams have grown the last few years with the rebound in the housing market, so go figure.
> 
> There are many use cases for Smart Things but there are other use cases for CI installed products. As a C4 and Crestron tech yourself I am sure you know that difference after speaking and working with end users.


You have great a system. Absolutely. I think that the CI group will continue to have their base of customers while the SmartThings of the off the shelf hub world will continue to appeal to a wider audience that may or may not be able to swallow the cost of a CI system. The off the shelf hub systems like SmartThing can do 90% to 95% of what the custom install systems can do; save for integration of some music streaming, alarm systems, & advanced scripting. That 90% to 95% of functionality will be sufficient for the vast majority of consumers that want a connected home, but they can't or don't want to spend 5k to 10k per room. Throw IFTTT and Harmony into the mix for a hub based system and connected home owner can certainly develop a nicely equipmented connected home that isn't complicated to operate. The last mile is the final frontier. 

As far as Homekit is concerned, every review I've seen of Homekit versus the other hubs all mention that Homekit doesn't have the power nor the flexibility that the hubs like SmartThings offer. While Homekit has made progress I wouldn't put it in the same category of flexibility/optionality that you'd get with a SmartThing, Nexia, Vera or Wink hub. And those other hubs use Z-wave which gives the owners access to somewhere in the ballpark of 2k devices to choose from; Homekit is nowhere near that. But Homekit is coming along nicely and it will work a group of people that are Apple fans and don't need a system that uses complex/creative programming.

As you and others have said, no one system is the best system for anyone. Everyone has different needs and that is ok.


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## ezlotogura

MOTILAC said:


> I do need to add this tidbit.... First of all, C4's Composer HE is really cool in that it comes standard, and has from the beginning.
> In Crestron-land, I have written scheduler programming and editable programming for clients. This doesn't come standard in all of the systems I've done, but I've done it and it can be added/implemented per client/system. It can be as detailed as the client would like it to be. Due to Crestron's open architecture programming, most anything is possible. Savant? NO WAY, none of this. In Crestron's Pyng system, users have the ability to edit events and schedules much like C4's Composer HE....but right from any of the interfaces/mobile app....and it comes standard.


Not 100% sure on how powerful the configuration is within Pyng. I can say Composer HE is more than just scheduling events. In fact some new drivers make scheduling events possible in the C4 touchscreen without needed Composer HE. But Composer HE can do everything in a C4 ecosystem except identify/bind new hardware. So you can do very deep dive programming just like an installer with Composer HE. If you can do that with Pyng too that is a nice perk for people wanting to dip into Crestron without going for the full top of the line offering. Even just ability to set up schedules via Pyng is a good start.


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## freeoscar

sort of funny to see people touting $10k+ video distribution systems for their film library when $20/month gets you access to 4k streams of just about any movie you might want. Those systems are like a motorola startac in the age of the smartphone.


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## smoothtlk

freeoscar, yes, but that's if you have the Internet speed to take advantage of those video streaming services. Mine is DSL 7 down, 1 up...that's all folks. No cable available in the distant future. Private road and not enough customers to warrant running the feed.


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## ezlotogura

freeoscar said:


> sort of funny to see people touting $10k+ video distribution systems for their film library when $20/month gets you access to 4k streams of just about any movie you might want. Those systems are like a motorola startac in the age of the smartphone.


I think I gave several examples of video distribution not even touching a personal movie library. Again different use cases for different people. I do not own a 4k tv, 4k content, etc, so it is of no concern to me.

and I agree, bandwidth is a major concern and not many people have the proper bandwidth to stream such content. Some people prefer physical media and ownership of a disc because it is never compressed and a better viewing experience (to some).

Great thing about A/V, many ways to accomplish tasks but each user has their own needs and if their goals are accomplished that's great. I use a video distribution system with built in Kodi, I have my movies ripped on a ReadyNas, and that works for me because I can do more than just stream my movie library using that video system.


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## ezlotogura

Along with Composer HE - C4 takes another step and more DIY friendly options (post install)


http://www.cepro.com/article/control4_if_then_engine_home_automation_system_diy_cedia_2017/news


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## brantmacga

I think C4 is a neat product, but I just finished a job as the EC where the C4 dealer has a few weird issues that C4 has basically said they can't figure out the problem and have no solutions. 


One of them I know of is an issue with the garage door controllers not working properly, and they have some issues with the audio system being controlled by C4. 

This is a $60k install on a 2500 sq ft house. Added with my install, it's a $100k electrical job that just flakes out sometimes.

The dealer is a super knowledgeable guy and has spent days over there trying to figure some of this stuff out and just isn't getting anywhere. I feel pretty bad for them that the manufacturer isn't doing more to help. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ezlotogura

brantmacga said:


> I think C4 is a neat product, but I just finished a job as the EC where the C4 dealer has a few weird issues that C4 has basically said they can't figure out the problem and have no solutions.
> 
> 
> One of them I know of is an issue with the garage door controllers not working properly, and they have some issues with the audio system being controlled by C4.
> 
> This is a $60k install on a 2500 sq ft house. Added with my install, it's a $100k electrical job that just flakes out sometimes.
> 
> The dealer is a super knowledgeable guy and has spent days over there trying to figure some of this stuff out and just isn't getting anywhere. I feel pretty bad for them that the manufacturer isn't doing more to help.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



send the dealer to C4Forums.com - it is a public forum with a lot of helpful folks. lots of dealers/programmers hang out there and offer free advice. 

do you know if it was MyQ garage door or just using the C4 garage door kit to work on any garage door? And do you have any specifics as to what the audio issue is? Streaming services built into the controller? using sonos or another 3rd party streaming device (heos, etc) or is it sending out announcements?

The other option is to sign up for the dealer only forum: https://forums.control4.com/register.aspx

On the public www.C4forums/com there are some C4 employees - if you PM me or have your dealer contact me I can give you the employees handle names so when you post you can reference them, they'll get a message and usually respond fairly quickly.


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## brantmacga

ezlotogura said:


> send the dealer to C4Forums.com.....



He may already be there......idk. 

I can't tell you all the specifics of this system; my role as the EC was to design the electrical system & install devices, while the dealer did the programming.

I don't know the model door operator. What they have on each bay (4 total) is a door operator, and the a separate screen door with its own operator that opens/closes independently. What they tried to accomplish is a program that opens the garage door every morning, and then closes the screen door behind it until the homeowner opens the screen to leave. What happens is the garage door will open, and sometimes the screen will close properly and sometimes it does not. This setup was requested by the homeowner.

With the audio system, they have problems where streaming services will stop working. C4 is saying it's an issue with their ISP. The homeowner has told me he's had other issues where they'll try to activate a lighting scene or open shades, and music will start playing loudly instead and they're unable to turn it off at the wall control. 

I know the dealer is pretty frustrated with it. He told me a couple of days ago they were contemplating refunding the owner the cost of the garage door controls and some of the audio stuff, as they simply can't get it fixed. 

And I'm not knocking the dealer at all; I know the guy has spent hours upon hours trying to fix this. And control 4 is, from what I've seen, and really cool system that has a lot of options for integration that the system I sell does not.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## smoothtlk

The garage door logic is pretty basic...that sounds like it's on the dealer.
The streaming sounds like a use case (no Internet) that C4 didn't iron out in their hardware driver.
Not sure about turning lights on and the music blares...but system logs should tell the dealer what's going on.

Most of this sounds like it's on the programmer. Might be new. Good to hear he keeps trying, but their is no substitute for experience.


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## ezlotogura

brantmacga said:


> He may already be there......idk.
> 
> I can't tell you all the specifics of this system; my role as the EC was to design the electrical system & install devices, while the dealer did the programming.
> 
> I don't know the model door operator. What they have on each bay (4 total) is a door operator, and the a separate screen door with its own operator that opens/closes independently. What they tried to accomplish is a program that opens the garage door every morning, and then closes the screen door behind it until the homeowner opens the screen to leave. What happens is the garage door will open, and sometimes the screen will close properly and sometimes it does not. This setup was requested by the homeowner.
> 
> With the audio system, they have problems where streaming services will stop working. C4 is saying it's an issue with their ISP. The homeowner has told me he's had other issues where they'll try to activate a lighting scene or open shades, and music will start playing loudly instead and they're unable to turn it off at the wall control.
> 
> I know the dealer is pretty frustrated with it. He told me a couple of days ago they were contemplating refunding the owner the cost of the garage door controls and some of the audio stuff, as they simply can't get it fixed.
> 
> And I'm not knocking the dealer at all; I know the guy has spent hours upon hours trying to fix this. And control 4 is, from what I've seen, and really cool system that has a lot of options for integration that the system I sell does not.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Got to agree with the other poster - this really sounds like dealer/programming issues especially hitting a light scene and getting music - you need to tell the system to do that it just doesn't happen out of the blue. The dealer may come across as strong and smart but I wonder how many C4 installs he has under his/her belt. Some of it also may be networking related - are they use unmanaged switches? Nothing fancy with VLANs, etc because that is not advised and can mess up Control4 if not done properly. And C4 recommends against managed switches, etc. There needs to be more info but I am fairly confident something from the story is missing - either their credentials, the lack of C4 help, etc.

When I first got my installation I was having trouble with an older DSC alarm and some funky behavior. C4 actually went on ebay and cobbled together my system for their lab and ran tests and figured out the problem. It was not an overnight solution but they wanted to replicate my house and the issue I was having and they figured it out. So if the dealer says they are not providing support I find that a bit of a stretch. Again always 2 sides to a story.

Have him send me a PM, I'll give him the screen name on the C4Forums of 2 C4 employees who check the forum. he can send them a note, he can post the issues to the public and people will offer their advice for free.


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## brantmacga

I guess from my perspective, the oddity in all of this is that the problems aren't constant. Sometimes you press buttons and it works fine, sometimes you press the same button and get unintended results. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## smoothtlk

I have to assume C4 has a system log that tracks all activity. A review of that from someone that is experienced should be able to isolate what's going on.
It sounds like programming issues. Software generally doesn't run "random". There are likely combination of rules that are hitting that makes it seem like random actions.


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## ezlotogura

brantmacga said:


> I guess from my perspective, the oddity in all of this is that the problems aren't constant. Sometimes you press buttons and it works fine, sometimes you press the same button and get unintended results.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


as Smooth said C4 support can pull logs. It seems like a networking issue or a programming issue. C4 support as I referenced above goes out of their way to mimic the setup and troubleshoot. And they can review your logs to see what is going on.


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## brantmacga

ezlotogura said:


> as Smooth said C4 support can pull logs. It seems like a networking issue or a programming issue. C4 support as I referenced above goes out of their way to mimic the setup and troubleshoot. And they can review your logs to see what is going on.




My understanding is that C4 did look at the logs with the dealer...... but I'm not a dealer for it so I can't say that it's not a programming issue, but I'll certainly pass all these tips along. I have another project coming up with them to install C4 panelized relay cabinets to replace another brand system and I can discuss further with him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ezlotogura

brantmacga said:


> My understanding is that C4 did look at the logs with the dealer...... but I'm not a dealer for it so I can't say that it's not a programming issue, but I'll certainly pass all these tips along. I have another project coming up with them to install C4 panelized relay cabinets to replace another brand system and I can discuss further with him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


good luck and keep us posted. I am glad to help out if he wants to PM me here or find his way to the c4 forums. People have posted their logs on that site for a group evaluation too but as mentioned C4 support usually steps in anyways.

End of day Control4 is just a computer and you need to tell it what to do. It is not going to all the sudden start playing music off pressing Button X when for weeks pressing Button X was turning on a light. It is impossible, you need to tell it to do it. And that is where programming comes in - mixing up macros, variables, not binding the device correctly, etc.


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## SMHarman

bigbarney said:


> I think you have missed the point.
> 
> I don't think bad systems (or badly installed systems) are what is being discussed here. It's being forced to pay for a service call every time something goes wrong or every time you want to make an adjustment, update, or just plain system maintenance.
> 
> It's the newest fad these days in electronics..... the GENERATING of service calls, and it's going on in just about every sector you can think of. A lot of these electronic control systems are come with some form of lockout so the customer is at the mercy of the install/maintenance people. Many newer electronic household thermostats have "installer codes" and the customer can't get in to make programming adjustments without calling the service tech. Alarm systems have "installer codes" and believe it or not, even today's newer computer based farm tractors now have "installer codes".
> 
> Now some companies try not to take these lockout systems too seriously, and others hold you at ransom with every single twist and turn that there is. I think THIS is the point that is being made.


Nobody is locked out of a control 4 system though. 

Even the owner with composer he


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## SMHarman

Aslan said:


> I shouldn't have to find, wait for and pay that remote dealer.
> 
> I should be able to buy a thermostat or door lock or Anthem receiver or LIFX lamp or Tesla Model 3 or Davis weather station or Rachio irrigation controller or a Miele oven or a security camera or DSC security panel and have my C4 system (or RTI or Savant or ...) recognize it, query it for its capabilities, and make it fully available for scripting. My phone can do that. And my MacBook. And sort of my AppleTV. And sort of Amazon Echo.
> 
> You are correct though that scripting is quite limited today. These other systems are good at integrating new hardware and software. C4, Savant, RTI, Crestron and others are good (or sort of good) at scripting. We should toss them all in a meld machine and maybe we can get some systems that are good at both. I expect someone, likely Apple, Amazon, and Google, will offer that.
> 
> BTW, I am not at all anti-integrator or opposed to hiring an integrator. Though I'm somewhat capable myself I'll gladly hire an integrator to install stuff or run wires or write scripts. I'll heartily recommend an integrator to friends and family who want stuff and aren't capable of doing it properly themselves. I just don't like being forced to use an integrator for small stuff that should take a few minutes of my time.


Sddp will get to this point eventually and that will help all automation systems


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## SMHarman

brantmacga said:


> My understanding is that C4 did look at the logs with the dealer...... but I'm not a dealer for it so I can't say that it's not a programming issue, but I'll certainly pass all these tips along. I have another project coming up with them to install C4 panelized relay cabinets to replace another brand system and I can discuss further with him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Some of this also sounds like zigbee network issues. 

I'm hoping zigbee is set to ch25 to avoid WiFi spectrum . That can fix delayed button presses.


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## Aslan

SMHarman said:


> Sddp will get to this point eventually and that will help all automation systems


SDDP is proprietary? 

There needs to be an industry standard similar to USB, WiFi, etc that defines how queries and responses are handled. If I'm a manufacturer I don't want to have to build separate integration routines for every HA system.


----------



## SMHarman

Aslan said:


> SDDP is proprietary?
> 
> There needs to be an industry standard similar to USB, WiFi, etc that defines how queries and responses are handled. If I'm a manufacturer I don't want to have to build separate integration routines for every HA system.


C4 is open so others can challenge and read the SDDP response.

https://www.control4.com/docs/product/simple-device-discovery-protocol/brochure/latest

Working together to make automation even better

The Control4 philosophy is as straightforward as it is simple: Life’s better when everything—and everyone—works together. From a company strategy perspective, that means Control4 stands behind an open platform: We are committed to interoperability so both Control4 dealers and customers can count on a system that communicates with and controls virtually anything and everything in their homes or businesses.

To that end, we work directly with world-class manufacturers to ensure a world-class brand experience for all.


----------



## jedi1982

AidenL said:


> I would agree with Henry.
> 
> I'm in the middle of a very bad, ongoing experience with Control 4.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, its flaky and unreliable.


My brother-in-law basically ripped it out after having it 6 months as it wasn't flexible enough for him. Instead, he's gone with Samsung SmartThings Hub and uses Google Home as well. I myself have decided to go with Savant because I won't foresee me tweaking much once initially configured. I just hope I'm selecting the correct system lol


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## rolldog

I bought a new house 4 months ago, and I've had a C4 system installed that controls everything from the all the lighting, the security system, the blinds, A/V distribution system running 4K HDR content to every TV in the house and outside, speakers in every room and outside, it runs my pool's pumps, heater, waterfalls, lighting, garage door opener, etc. I have 2 theaters, a 5.1 and a 7.1.4 Atmos system, and I'm using DIRECTV, a Roku Ultra, Nvidia Shield, Xbox One, 4 security cameras, 2 door locks, and they integrated a Ring doorbell into the system. I can stream Plex from my QNAP anywhere I want, and I can stream music/TV to any room or all rooms. I have 3 x 55" racks full of equipment in an air conditioned hallway out of sight. I've had zero problems despite all the components in my system.

In my other house, I had Philips Hue lights, Samsung Smart things, LIFX lighting, and I used IFTTT to setup lighting scenes and schedules. Some people may be happy with all the off the shelf devices to setup Zigbee "home control" but the features are nowhere near what you can get from a C4 system. This is why both systems are available. Not everyone needs, or wants, everything you can get from a Control4 system nor do they want to spend the money on it. With all my devices at my other house, I probably have a total of $10,000 in it, and it did everything I wanted. Moving into my new house, I wanted to upgrade to a whole home automation system, I've invested close to $100,000 on it, and I'm 100% happy with it. The installer is a guy who I've known and have been buying home theater equipment from for 20 years, so to have your C4 system run efficiently, it all comes down to the installers qualifications. Luckily, mine knows this system inside and out. If you've invested the money in a C4 system and aren't happy with it, then you probably need to find someone who is capable of installing everything correctly. Once everything is installed and working, not much maintenance is needed except some software updates, which they can do remotely. To say that the C4 system sucks is completely wrong. I think the problem is with whoever installed it. As mentioned before, go to c4forums.com and see if you can find another installer.


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## Mntneer

Something completely lost in these discussions is the network these systems sit on. If you have a cobbled together, generic residential network hardware, system then you WILL have problems.

Yeah, Alexa and DIY solutions can be easy and fun, but I prefer to have a single point of control for all systems in my home, and owners shouldn't have to have an app for this and an app for that, nor should they have to worry if manufacture A's product will work with manufacture B's product. Met a guy that spent a ton on a Nest camera system, which was I guess a great DIY solution for him, but now he's paying extra to the cable company for bandwidth to accommodate that camera system, something he shouldn't have to do.


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## smoothtlk

Mntneer said:


> Something completely lost in these discussions is the network these systems sit on. If you have a cobbled together, generic residential network hardware, system then you WILL have problems.
> 
> Yeah, Alexa and DIY solutions can be easy and fun, but I prefer to have a single point of control for all systems in my home, and owners shouldn't have to have an app for this and an app for that, nor should they have to worry if manufacture A's product will work with manufacture B's product. Met a guy that spent a ton on a Nest camera system, which was I guess a great DIY solution for him, but now he's paying extra to the cable company for bandwidth to accommodate that camera system, something he shouldn't have to do.


We don't find "residential network hardware" to be an issue. "cobbled together" certainly is.

"paying extra to the cable company"...yes. We don't like cloud solutions. Our server stays in the home / business it is controlling and is 24x7 uptime. Only when you are out of the home do you need to send a few packets over the Internet for that function. Most all of the time the user is in the home when they want to control it. No latency, no bandwidth issues, no security concerns (when not cobbled together), no big brother concerns.


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## elloco07

Hi Guys, i just read through this whole thread and there is a lot of pros/cons for Control4 or other dealer installed HA systems. I went to see a dealer today to check out the system and he will be coming to do an in-home consultation. The only thing that is keeping from moving forward right now is really the inability to add my own devices to the system without the dealer involved. If I want to add Ge smart switches or a Nest thermostat later, it means I have to call the dealer to get them integrated into Control4 which they charge an hourly rate. 

is there no way for a home user to add these items to control4 and own it our right?

Thanks


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## SMHarman

elloco07 said:


> Hi Guys, i just read through this whole thread and there is a lot of pros/cons for Control4 or other dealer installed HA systems. I went to see a dealer today to check out the system and he will be coming to do an in-home consultation. The only thing that is keeping from moving forward right now is really the inability to add my own devices to the system without the dealer involved. If I want to add Ge smart switches or a Nest thermostat later, it means I have to call the dealer to get them integrated into Control4 which they charge an hourly rate.
> 
> is there no way for a home user to add these items to control4 and own it our right?
> 
> Thanks


You find a remote dealer on C4forums and they don't for you over the phone at a lower rate than your local dealer.


----------



## elloco07

SMHarman said:


> You find a remote dealer on C4forums and they don't for you over the phone at a lower rate than your local dealer.


So any dealer can get into my system and add devices? I do not have to be stuck with the initial dealer who installed it?

Has anyone become c4 certified and DIY themselves?


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## SMHarman

elloco07 said:


> So any dealer can get into my system and add devices? I do not have to be stuck with the initial dealer who installed it?


Kinda, the only dealer that can 'just get into the system' is the dealer of record on your account. You can change that to let another dealer in then change it back. 
An alternate is to put team view on a machine on your network and let them teamview onto your network. 



elloco07 said:


> Has anyone become c4 certified and DIY themselves?


Not a hope these days. You need a store and and and and


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## ezlotogura

elloco07 said:


> So any dealer can get into my system and add devices? I do not have to be stuck with the initial dealer who installed it?
> 
> Has anyone become c4 certified and DIY themselves?


As I replied to you in the other thread, to be a c4 dealer you need a history of a business in the industry, you need a store/showroom and you need a volume of sales. You can try to get freelance/part time work with a local dealer and go get training then get access to software, but C4 is not giving away access/dealerships that easily to anyone who applies.

And yes, I had an original dealer, it was 50/50 - did some things fine on the networking side but did not have a lot of Control4 programming skills. And since I was new I did not have strength or knowledge of Composer HE. I switched my dealer of record (free and easy to do online) to a remote dealer, now only do they do a better job programming but for free took some time to give me a tutorial of Composer HE so I could do programming on my own. Every so often I may get stuck or just lack of time and pay my dealer to program stuff, but usually I can hack it myself and/or post on www.c4forums.com and get free help.


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## lightsout190

ezlotogura said:


> As I replied to you in the other thread, to be a c4 dealer you need a history of a business in the industry, you need a store/showroom and you need a volume of sales. You can try to get freelance/part time work with a local dealer and go get training then get access to software, but C4 is not giving away access/dealerships that easily to anyone who applies.
> 
> And yes, I had an original dealer, it was 50/50 - did some things fine on the networking side but did not have a lot of Control4 programming skills. And since I was new I did not have strength or knowledge of Composer HE. I switched my dealer of record (free and easy to do online) to a remote dealer, now only do they do a better job programming but for free took some time to give me a tutorial of Composer HE so I could do programming on my own. Every so often I may get stuck or just lack of time and pay my dealer to program stuff, but usually I can hack it myself and/or post on www.c4forums.com and get free help.


I believe this is why allot of people are going with DIY systems and adding compatible devices and using Homekit and hubs like Wink and Smart things. You can pretty much build it yourself and expand it whenever you want. Also the cost, from what I gather Control4 can be very expensive depending on how large and complex it is.


----------



## ezlotogura

lightsout190 said:


> I believe this is why allot of people are going with DIY systems and adding compatible devices and using Homekit and hubs like Wink and Smart things. You can pretty much build it yourself and expand it whenever you want. Also the cost, from what I gather Control4 can be very expensive depending on how large and complex it is.


that is like saying I did not like my plumber so I am just going to dig a hole in the yard and not use indoor plumbing. Everyone has different needs. And some dealers/installers/contractors are good, others arent. Goes with mechanics, plumbers, electricians and custom electronics/automation/installation types. 

My automation needs (not control, but automation) could not be filled by Homekit and its 10's of items or Wink or Smart Things with their limited roster of compatible items. Over the counter/big box store hubs lack really good audio/video support and they lack in depth automation and also the 1 app experience. For some that is fine and I would suggest (and have suggested) these products. In a past life I had Harmony remotes and Hue bulbs and other devices but as my needs (and house) grew these were no longer good options. so they are a solution for some, but they are not a solution for everyone which is why you have C4, Crestron, Savant, Elan, etc.


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## freeoscar

As EZ stated, the DIY and Control4 type systems aren't really comparable. I'm a DIYer, but I understand the attractiveness of Control4, Crestron, etc. and what they offer which a DIY system doesn't. And Control4, which is a public company, has seen it's revenues and profits grow at a pretty healthy clip over the past couple of years, so if anything they maybe be benefitting from people who get introduced to automation through DIY but then want something professional (though my guess is it's just more about a healthy economy and housing market).


----------



## ahard

The good thing is that there is something for everyone. If you can't afford the integrator based solutions, there are DIY hubs that will provided the majority of the general population with a suitable solution. We can thank Amazon, Google, Apple and Samsung for making the connected home more accessible to a broader group of people; for people that want to see the smart home/connected home grow, that is a good thing.


----------



## lightsout190

ezlotogura said:


> that is like saying I did not like my plumber so I am just going to dig a hole in the yard and not use indoor plumbing. Everyone has different needs. And some dealers/installers/contractors are good, others arent. Goes with mechanics, plumbers, electricians and custom electronics/automation/installation types.
> 
> My automation needs (not control, but automation) could not be filled by Homekit and its 10's of items or Wink or Smart Things with their limited roster of compatible items. Over the counter/big box store hubs lack really good audio/video support and they lack in depth automation and also the 1 app experience. For some that is fine and I would suggest (and have suggested) these products. In a past life I had Harmony remotes and Hue bulbs and other devices but as my needs (and house) grew these were no longer good options. so they are a solution for some, but they are not a solution for everyone which is why you have C4, Crestron, Savant, Elan, etc.





freeoscar said:


> As EZ stated, the DIY and Control4 type systems aren't really comparable. I'm a DIYer, but I understand the attractiveness of Control4, Crestron, etc. and what they offer which a DIY system doesn't. And Control4, which is a public company, has seen it's revenues and profits grow at a pretty healthy clip over the past couple of years, so if anything they maybe be benefitting from people who get introduced to automation through DIY but then want something professional (though my guess is it's just more about a healthy economy and housing market).


For the record I am in no way trying to compare the two and say that a DIY system like I mentioned is just as good as a Control4 or Crestron system. I know that those DIY systems cannot do even a fraction of what a Control4 system can do in terms of integration and automation. But the point I was trying to make was that for people who want a simpler and more affordable solution and don't need all the advanced capabilities that a Control4 system can provide a DIY system is favorable. You don't need a dealer, in most cases you don't need an installer if your a little tech savy, and you can build on to it as your liking. And the main thing would be the $$$. I could compare this to the automobile world. Take two big luxury, powerful sedans. One is a Mercedes S600 (control4) and the other is a Chrysler 300 (DIY system). The 300 would pretty much provide all the luxury and features that the majority of people would need. However, for those who wish to go above and beyond and get the best in luxury and technological features the Mercedes is what they would go for. So in a sense A DIY system with a hub, Google Home or Alexia and Homekit is sort of a poor mans Control4 or Crestron. In most cases it will provide what the vast majority of people require.


----------



## lightsout190

ahard said:


> The good thing is that there is something for everyone. If you can't afford the integrator based solutions, there are DIY hubs that will provided the majority of the general population with a suitable solution. We can thank Amazon, Google, Apple and Samsung for making the connected home more accessible to a broader group of people; for people that want to see the smart home/connected home grow, that is a good thing.


Well said, and that was the point I was trying to imply.


----------



## SMHarman

lightsout190 said:


> For the record I am in no way trying to compare the two and say that a DIY system like I mentioned is just as good as a Control4 or Crestron system. I know that those DIY systems cannot do even a fraction of what a Control4 system can do in terms of integration and automation. But the point I was trying to make was that for people who want a simpler and more affordable solution and don't need all the advanced capabilities that a Control4 system can provide a DIY system is favorable. You don't need a dealer, in most cases you don't need an installer if your a little tech savy, and you can build on to it as your liking. And the main thing would be the $$$. I could compare this to the automobile world. Take two big luxury, powerful sedans. One is a Mercedes S600 (control4) and the other is a Chrysler 300 (DIY system). The 300 would pretty much provide all the luxury and features that the majority of people would need. However, for those who wish to go above and beyond and get the best in luxury and technological features the Mercedes is what they would go for. So in a sense A DIY system with a hub, Google Home or Alexia and Homekit is sort of a poor mans Control4 or Crestron. In most cases it will provide what the vast majority of people require.


Still there is the difference between control and automation.


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## lightsout190

SMHarman said:


> Still there is the difference between control and automation.




Could you give me an example of the major difference between control and automation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SMHarman

lightsout190 said:


> Could you give me an example of the major difference between control and automation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Control, ooh look I can turn this light switch on with this app on my phone, and I can stream music with that app, and adjust the temperature with another app, and look at the video cameras with another, all while sitting on my sofa.

So I want to watch a movie and am feeling lazy. I'll open the nest app and adjust the heat, I'll open the hue app and adjust the lights, I'll open the august app and check I locked the front door. Then I start with the TV

Automation. 
I press Watch Netflix, on the Control4 remote. This then adjusts the lights, the heat, checks the doors are locked etc, all from that one action.

Another example. 
I leave my home. I set the alarm to armed away or in my case tap the front door light switch off three times. 

All lights in the house are switched off as are TV and music. A mock occupancy program is enabled that adjusts all lights on the home on and off in line with usual use patterns. 

All that from three taps of a light switch.

And another regularly used. 

There is a night button on a keypad near the bedrooms. Press it and all lights in the vicinity dim to 10%. Music and Tvs in the bedrooms go off. Press a second time and all lights go off. 

So at bedtime this sets a soporific mood quickly and in the middle of the night this allows sufficient light in sufficient rooms for checking in on kids or kids taking a trip to the bathroom.


----------



## ahard

SMHarman said:


> Control, ooh look I can turn this light switch on with this app on my phone, and I can stream music with that app, and adjust the temperature with another app, and look at the video cameras with another, all while sitting on my sofa.
> 
> So I want to watch a movie and am feeling lazy. I'll open the nest app and adjust the heat, I'll open the hue app and adjust the lights, I'll open the august app and check I locked the front door. Then I start with the TV
> 
> Automation.
> I press Watch Netflix, on the Control4 remote. This then adjusts the lights, the heat, checks the doors are locked etc, all from that one action.
> 
> Another example.
> I leave my home. I set the alarm to armed away or in my case tap the front door light switch off three times.
> 
> All lights in the house are switched off as are TV and music. A mock occupancy program is enabled that adjusts all lights on the home on and off in line with usual use patterns.
> 
> All that from three taps of a light switch.
> 
> And another regularly used.
> 
> There is a night button on a keypad near the bedrooms. Press it and all lights in the vicinity dim to 10%. Music and Tvs in the bedrooms go off. Press a second time and all lights go off.
> 
> So at bedtime this sets a soporific mood quickly and in the middle of the night this allows sufficient light in sufficient rooms for checking in on kids or kids taking a trip to the bathroom.


This correct. But I at a base level, the so-called DIY hubs do allow for automation and not just control. I don't want anyone to read this thread and get the impression that they don't. Now, will a DIY hub automate all of the items that a integrator based system can? Certainly not. And I'm not trying to make that case. But for what most Americans would want to automate: lights, HVAC, garage door, door locks, a DIY hub will do those things. 

I can only speak for the hub that I use, but I also have mock occupancy scenes (I read the Control4 blog) that I've created for when I leave to go on vacation. I tell Alexa or Google Home to turn on Vacation and all the lights will turn off, the HVAC will be set to the appropriate temp and the av system will turn off. After 5 minutes the garage door will close and all motion sensors will be set so that if there is movement in the house every light will turn on and the alarm will sound. 

I can tell Alexa or Google Home to turn on the movie and my lights will turn off, the garage door will close, the mud room door will lock, the avr will switch inputs, the blu-ray player door will open and the projector will turn on. If I wanted, I could include my blinds in that automation so that they close when I give that command.

I also have a Good night scene, where I can tell Alexa or Google to turn on Good night and the family room lights, av system and kitchen lights will turn off while the master bedroom and bathroom lights turn on as well as the master bedroom tv. After 15 minutes the motion sensors are set so that if I get up in the middle of the night to use the master bathroom, the light in the master bathroom water-closet will turn on; the same thing happens for the bedrooms at the front of the house.

I have a Good morning scene that I only use on Saturdays, where I turn over to my night stand and I say to Alexa, turn on Good Morning and the lights in the kitchen turn on, the tv in the family room turns on changes to my favorite station and the master bathroom lights turn on.

I also have a Welcome Home scene where on Mon-Fri when I enter a the geofence I've established near my home, the av system in the family room turns on, the garage door opens, certain lights in the house turn on or dim to a particular percentage and the hvac turns on to appropriate temp. On the weekends, whenever I enter the geofence I have it set so that only the garage door opens; no lights turn on. During this time of the year, when I enter the geofence during the work week, my Christmas tree lights also turn on when the other lights turn on. I used to have it set so that when I entered my code on the door lock the Christmas tree lights turned on. On the weekends, the Christmas Tree lights turn on when the sun sets.

My outdoor lights turn on when the sunsets and they turn off when the sunrises.

I have an automation where I can tell Alexa or Google Home to turn on Chromecast or the Amazon Fire Stick and the avr will go to the correct input. I can also ask either assistant to watch Stranger Things on Netflix and Stranger Things will start to play.

I also have automated my ceilings fans. I have a temperature sensor in each room. I can designate a temp for each room so that when let's say the master bedroom reaches 78 degrees, the ceiling fan will turn on to whatever speed I've designated (I like medium for the master). When the temp in the master reaches 76 the ceiling fan turns off. I can also tell Alexa to turn on the ceiling fan and it will turn on.

I never open a single app to do any of these things when I'm home. No need to. If I wanted I could buy a wall mounted tablet-like controller that the company that makes my hub sells and use that to kickoff scenes. But I use voice exclusively to kickoff scenes.


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## SMHarman

Then you sir are the exception. 

Most consumers can't program a universal remote. This thread on this forum is quite a self selecting bunch.


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## ahard

SMHarman said:


> Then you sir are the exception.
> 
> Most consumers can't program a universal remote. This thread on this forum is quite a self selecting bunch.


How right you are. But I'd say that we're making progress when one of the tech writers for the Wall Street Journal talks about using a geofence to turn on lights & open the garage door in his home, which surprisingly happened several months back in one of his articles. More people that don't frequent forums like this one will read that article & others like it & likely become interested in connecting their homes.


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## Sparkycoog

I'm a working pro (master electrician) who focuses on lighting automation side of things and have been doing this stuff for more than 10 years so perhaps I can shed some light on things. First things first, lets get it out of the way: The dealer installed products are still much better than any consumer product out there. They look better, they function better, and they are a status symbol of sorts. Much like buying a $120k Mercedes might not make sense for the average consumer however, unless you can afford the initial cost, maintenance cost, and the complete replacement part in 5-10 years, then you probably shouldn't own one of these systems.


Don't forget that lighting automation has been around since the 80's. The wealthy areas in every major city have had some form of automation be it the original Lutron Homeworks, LightTouch, Vantage, and custom AV systems for many years and those people are the same people who buy a $120k car knowing full well they will never ever touch anything under the hood. It's really in the last 5 years or so that technology has trickled down to the average consumer. 

Some big companies like Lutron get it. They have products for the 1%ers as well as those who want to spend $60. Unfortunately that's not true for many big name AV companies. The prevalence of all the recent DIY consumer AV products has done very little to loosen the grip of the dealer installs because again, their target audience is that sweet 1%er money and they think they can get that and if anything, they are even tightening their grip more and are putting extra pressure on their own dealers to sell more or get kicked out. They are circling the wagons and really are trying to get dealers who are fully invested in their product and their product alone and are trying to get into everything -lighting, shades, AV, etc.

This is very bad because it means less support and more pressure to buy new systems, even if yours works perfectly fine. I worked with one dealer install lighting automation company back when they were a small and hardworking American company and I believed in their product. At the time, they were happy to take on new dealers. They were bought by a bigger foreign company a few years ago. We focused more on service than sales so we could fix all the electrical issues (shorts in light fixtures kill dimmers and modules) as well and maintained many systems that we never even installed. Recently without notice, we got kicked off as dealers and completely cut off from buying any more parts. When we asked why, they said it was because we had not spent as much money with them in the last 3 years mostly because we don't work on new installs as much as we used to. Service was not a concern to them- only growth. 

That means that even if you do have the money and you do have a good dealer that you like, all it takes is for them is to lose their annual sales requirements and you won't even have your own dealer anymore! Or worse, sometimes a company just goes out of business like LightTouch did when Savant bought them. Those people now have to scramble on Ebay to find parts and pray there is someone in their city who still has the old software. 

So the moral of the story: If you want a dealer install system, expect that you will always be a hostage to a dealer. I also suggest going with the best known name so in case something happens to your dealer, you can find another one easily. A lot of the smaller companies may have good products but have limited access.

I may be biased being an electrician first, but I really think that critical aspects of a house like lighting and HVAC should be decoupled from the AV so even if your AV system goes out of fashion or has issues, you can still turn on the lights. As such, I have found Lutron's products to be the best because they only do one thing and do it right. Their DIY stuff is also better than any out there.


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## lightsout190

SMHarman said:


> Control, ooh look I can turn this light switch on with this app on my phone, and I can stream music with that app, and adjust the temperature with another app, and look at the video cameras with another, all while sitting on my sofa.
> 
> So I want to watch a movie and am feeling lazy. I'll open the nest app and adjust the heat, I'll open the hue app and adjust the lights, I'll open the august app and check I locked the front door. Then I start with the TV
> 
> Automation.
> I press Watch Netflix, on the Control4 remote. This then adjusts the lights, the heat, checks the doors are locked etc, all from that one action.
> 
> Another example.
> I leave my home. I set the alarm to armed away or in my case tap the front door light switch off three times.
> 
> All lights in the house are switched off as are TV and music. A mock occupancy program is enabled that adjusts all lights on the home on and off in line with usual use patterns.
> 
> All that from three taps of a light switch.
> 
> And another regularly used.
> 
> There is a night button on a keypad near the bedrooms. Press it and all lights in the vicinity dim to 10%. Music and Tvs in the bedrooms go off. Press a second time and all lights go off.
> 
> So at bedtime this sets a soporific mood quickly and in the middle of the night this allows sufficient light in sufficient rooms for checking in on kids or kids taking a trip to the bathroom.




Ok makes sense. Yes In the end a control4 system is superior to a DIY system. You can pretty much tailor it to your lifestyle in any way. But the only argument that I was trying to make was that for the majority of the people and for people who cannot afford a control4 system, a DIY system can be pretty good and look after allot of your needs. Especially with how alexia and google home ties in everything now. And i think we all have to admit that this is just the beginning. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sparkycoog

lightsout190 said:


> Ok makes sense. Yes In the end a control4 system is superior to a DIY system. You can pretty much tailor it to your lifestyle in any way. But the only argument that I was trying to make was that for the majority of the people and for people who cannot afford a control4 system, a DIY system can be pretty good and look after allot of your needs. Especially with how alexia and google home ties in everything now. And i think we all have to admit that this is just the beginning.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Absolutely. The pro install stuff is better IF you can afford it, but there have been three big game changers that give a lot of power to DIYers as well now. 

1. Smart Phones/ tablets. Prior to smart phones, a low res in wall touch screen from a dealer install would cost you $2000 and then be obsolete after 4 years. 
2. "The cloud". Moving the heavy duty work and integration from an expensive processor in the house to the cloud made things pretty cheap and easy for DIYers...of course, if your internet goes, you're SOL.
3. Voice assistants. Even some pro installs haven't caught up to it yet (*cough* Vantage)


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## SMHarman

Sparkycoog said:


> Absolutely. The pro install stuff is better IF you can afford it, but there have been three big game changers that give a lot of power to DIYers as well now.
> 
> 1. Smart Phones/ tablets. Prior to smart phones, a low res in wall touch screen from a dealer install would cost you $2000 and then be obsolete after 4 years.
> 2. "The cloud". Moving the heavy duty work and integration from an expensive processor in the house to the cloud made things pretty cheap and easy for DIYers...of course, if your internet goes, you're SOL.
> 3. Voice assistants. Even some pro installs haven't caught up to it yet (*cough* Vantage)


1. Most vendors keep their screens working with current os for 7+ years. More than you can say for Apple. Also you choose to upgrade. You can be running a 10 year old screen on a 3 year old OS. 

2. Yeah, poof. And remote locations (boats 1% ers I know) and houses with choppy Internet in much of the US. 

3. And look how one is leveraged by the other. Control4 built an Alexa skill and left the voice hardware and lifting to Amazon.


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## smoothtlk

lightsout190 said:


> Ok makes sense. Yes In the end a control4 system is superior to a DIY system. You can pretty much tailor it to your lifestyle in any way. But the only argument that I was trying to make was that for the majority of the people and for people who cannot afford a control4 system, a DIY system can be pretty good and look after allot of your needs. Especially with how alexia and google home ties in everything now. And i think we all have to admit that this is just the beginning.



It depends on what DIY system you are speaking of. All of the "Master Controller" systems exceed the capability of Control4 systems both in terms of configurability and in customization and in scope of capability. If you are only referencing "hub" DIY systems, then yes, they are limited but have great capability for the initial investment.


----------



## SMHarman

smoothtlk said:


> It depends on what DIY system you are speaking of. All of the "Master Controller" systems exceed the capability of Control4 systems both in terms of configurability and in customization and in scope of capability. If you are only referencing "hub" DIY systems, then yes, they are limited.


In customization yes, but at a huge premium. A big part of C4 speed to deploy is the less configurable GUI. But then you have test driven the GUI and like iOS or appleOS or W10 or Android it has its pros and cons.

Configurability and capabilites you are clutching at straw there.


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## smoothtlk

SMHarman said:


> In customization yes, but at a huge premium. A big part of C4 speed to deploy is the less configurable GUI. But then you have test driven the GUI and like iOS or appleOS or W10 or Android it has its pros and cons.
> 
> Configurability and capabilites you are clutching at straw there.


Yes, more configurable and more capable....this is definitely a true statement.


----------



## SMHarman

smoothtlk said:


> Yes, more configurable and more capable....this is definitely a true statement.


Huh, okay then we can all have our opinions. Factually it will run any home capably 

Custom buttons and other configuration options are also there since you last looked. Part of 2.9 and further embedded into 2.10.

What os version did you last take a look at?

What configuration or capability os it missing?


----------



## smoothtlk

Not as familiar with 2.10 capability.
Can the integrator change button color / opacity / layering based on state of a integrator defined variable for dynamic state updates?
Swap images dynamically like fan art changing in the background for a playing song or movie?
Random fanart like for a photo album? Screen saver with random pictures of family?
Are integrator state variables even possible?

These are technical details that start to form the user experience. We always found C4 to be lacking in the fluidity of the UI. It was always pretty sterile. 90's look and feel.
Did 2.10 address some / all of these capabilities? Would love to see a video of a well designed UI that leverages the new capability. If you have a link, please provide.

When you say "it will run any home capably", certainly that is a qualitative position. Some would say a Smarthings Hub can do the same. Surely C4 is better than that and I would say myServer is another whole level beyond C4 (at least prior to 2.10).


----------



## Dean Roddey

I'm not sure how far C4 lets you go, but with CQC it's way beyond just customizing the look of standard visual elements. You can really create full on touch screen *applications*, not just this page, that page. And you can do that with no coding or copying and pasting commands and so forth, it's all point and click. And they can be extremely visually rich. Our touch screen development system is very powerful. 

We can also generate a standard set of interface for smaller installs, but that is built on top of our interface system, so it has access to all of the power it provides.

Since we are software based, the issue of 'consumer grade' is a different issue. The hardware can be completely commercial grade stuff, and we encourage that definitely. You then layer our software over that quality hardware, and you have a solid, very flexible system. One nice thing is that modern PC hardware is more than enough. So you can get into a fairly basic system, and then up-sell over time without ever having to force them up to a new automation controller, as might be the case with a hardware based system.

The two layers complement each other nicely, and they keep the automation system and the hardware separate, which has a lot of advantages over an all in one system.


----------



## ezlotogura

smoothtlk said:


> Not as familiar with 2.10 capability.
> Can the integrator change button color / opacity / layering based on state of a integrator defined variable for dynamic state updates?
> Swap images dynamically like fan art changing in the background for a playing song or movie?
> Random fanart like for a photo album? Screen saver with random pictures of family?
> Are integrator state variables even possible?
> 
> These are technical details that start to form the user experience. We always found C4 to be lacking in the fluidity of the UI. It was always pretty sterile. 90's look and feel.
> Did 2.10 address some / all of these capabilities? Would love to see a video of a well designed UI that leverages the new capability. If you have a link, please provide.
> 
> When you say "it will run any home capably", certainly that is a qualitative position. Some would say a Smarthings Hub can do the same. Surely C4 is better than that and I would say myServer is another whole level beyond C4 (at least prior to 2.10).


yes that is possible - at least I think based on how you describe it. C4 is moving from Flash to an Android based platform and every update is giving the UI more ability to be customized more than previously. So you can see the roadmap very easily. https://www.blackwiredesigns.com/store/c4z-emoji/ - 1400 emojis. Experience buttons came into play on 2.9 - https://www.control4.com/press_rele...artnerships-and-expanded-dealer-opportunities -- C4 has their own free buttons then people create drivers with even more buttons: https://www.chowmainsoft.com/experience-button-suite - the buttons are dynamic so as a state in the project changes, the icon can change. For instance I have a sprinkler head, and the head is in the ground but if my sprinklers are on, the icon is a sprinkler head above ground with water coming out.

These the types of customizations based on current states? I believe there are several drivers to get fanart into your project. Personally I rarely use a screen for video, im usually picking movies while seated on a couch so I use the Kodi interface for movie selection.


----------



## smoothtlk

ezlotogura said:


> so I use the Kodi interface for movie selection.


Does C4 have a movie interface? You like Kodi better?
What do you use for Music (local) and streaming as an interface?


----------



## ezlotogura

smoothtlk said:


> Does C4 have a movie interface? You like Kodi better?
> What do you use for Music (local) and streaming as an interface?


C4 has a movie database driver called MyMovies. Kodi has a 3rd party driver that is one of the most popular 3rd party drivers: https://www.chowmainsoft.com/kodi-xbmc-full-driver-for-control4/ - for me, my NAS has about 50 movies and its mostly for my wife, I never do it. She is comfortable launching Kodi and picking her movie. Again its basically done while seated on the couch, not standing by a touchscreen, so the 58'' TV screen is her method of choice. I could create a MyMovies database but I do not see the need for my use case.

for music I use Sonos. Though since sonos decided they did not like the CI channel I'll be moving to native C4 shortly since its getting a bit annoying to keep putting a band-aid on some of the breaks. C4 native offers Pandora, SiriusXM, Deezer, Tidal, TuneIN plus a driver for iTunes integration. Plus Shairbridge which is like Airplay. You can get real crazy and hook an Echo up to a c4 matrix and play music around the house that way as well. You got options.

Great thing about c4, tons of options, so you can customize it for how YOU use the system.


----------



## SMHarman

smoothtlk said:


> Does C4 have a movie interface? You like Kodi better?
> What do you use for Music (local) and streaming as an interface?





ezlotogura said:


> C4 has a movie database driver called MyMovies. Kodi has a 3rd party driver that is one of the most popular 3rd party drivers: https://www.chowmainsoft.com/kodi-xbmc-full-driver-for-control4/ - for me, my NAS has about 50 movies and its mostly for my wife, I never do it. She is comfortable launching Kodi and picking her movie. Again its basically done while seated on the couch, not standing by a touchscreen, so the 58'' TV screen is her method of choice. I could create a MyMovies database but I do not see the need for my use case.
> 
> for music I use Sonos. Though since sonos decided they did not like the CI channel I'll be moving to native C4 shortly since its getting a bit annoying to keep putting a band-aid on some of the breaks. C4 native offers Pandora, SiriusXM, Deezer, Tidal, TuneIN plus a driver for iTunes integration. Plus Shairbridge which is like Airplay. You can get real crazy and hook an Echo up to a c4 matrix and play music around the house that way as well. You got options.
> 
> Great thing about c4, tons of options, so you can customize it for how YOU use the system.


This is a good write up.

I do have the my movies set up but it is so rarely used now. It streams my NAS to a postbox V8 through the C4 interface for selection. That said, I took advantage of Vudu D2D and got my movie collection onto UV / DMA/MA. There are a few stragglers on my movies but Vudu on the Roku is now three key presses away. Watch down select. 

Why clutter my NAS with multi gig movie files. And Vudu can download these to Apple and Android on the go. Also recently the DMA > MA made this now seamless on phones and tablets as the ownership rights go to Apple TV and TV on the phone and Google play / you tube. 

The next time I go local movie storage would be in a bigger home with a movie theater and a kaleidoscape for uncompressed 4k BD res and uncompressed digital audio but my current use the res of everything streamed is close enough. 



Sent from my E6603 using Tapatalk


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## HotAhr

I am going to Chime in here if I may. Like many or probably most of you, I've been a Home Theater hobbyist for many years. I've done many self installs and maintained them all from satellite dishes to home theater projectors to audio systems etc. But, I am now disabled with the most painful chronic pain/neurological brain disease known to modern medicine. The days of my being able to DIY are over because of my illness. I am meeting with a representative in my area for both Savant and Control4. I don't know how much or how little I will spend on any product offered. I just know this, I have enough hobbyist experience to know if and when I'm being suckered into something that is not worth my time or money to welcome into my soon to be newly constructed home. And yet at the same time, because of my disability I can no longer get up and down on my hands and knees nor can I be that DIY guy that once did my own installs and maintained them. Therefore, I am very interested to see what Control4 & Savant offers in terms of components and software. Why? Because I am handicapped and I am disabled. And it looks like these two companies' products will probably be able to help me. 

Thanks to all of you for your input in this thread. It is all a very good read.

Happy New Year


----------



## SMHarman

HotAhr said:


> Why? Because I am handicapped and I am disabled. And it looks like these two companies' products will probably be able to help me.
> 
> Thanks to all of you for your input in this thread. It is all a very good read.
> 
> Happy New Year


Happy New Year, sorry to hear of your disabilities. Certainly the stability of my C4 system impresses me and with motion and Alexa voice along with tablet and decent (though some say boring) hard remote it should do you right. 

I've not experienced Savant so can't give positive or negatives there. 

One of the interesting things I noticed over this holidays was how my wife's use of our system has changed. Historically it was all on screen gui. Now music selection is all phone app. That's here change not imposed by anyone. Just her getting to a better way to do things. 

Good luck with your dealer and if they plumb it right any remote dealer can help tweak.

A couple of other reads for you. 
https://www.control4.com/blog/2015/12/automation-for-autism-control-for-a-cause

https://www.cnet.com/news/for-injur...ol4-smart-tech-is-crucial-to-quality-of-life/


----------



## HotAhr

SMHarman said:


> Happy New Year, sorry to hear of your disabilities. Certainly the stability of my C4 system impresses me and with motion and Alexa voice along with tablet and decent (though some say boring) hard remote it should do you right.
> 
> I've not experienced Savant so can't give positive or negatives there.
> 
> One of the interesting things I noticed over this holidays was how my wife's use of our system has changed. Historically it was all on screen gui. Now music selection is all phone app. That's here change not imposed by anyone. Just her getting to a better way to do things.
> 
> Good luck with your dealer and if they plumb it right any remote dealer can help tweak.
> 
> A couple of other reads for you.
> https://www.control4.com/blog/2015/12/automation-for-autism-control-for-a-cause
> 
> https://www.cnet.com/news/for-injur...ol4-smart-tech-is-crucial-to-quality-of-life/



Hey, thanks for the replay. My hope is to keep the cost reasonable. hahaha Imagine that? Reasonably priced A/V.. Does such a Monster actually exist? GRIN, kidding of course.


----------



## SMHarman

HotAhr said:


> Hey, thanks for the replay. My hope is to keep the cost reasonable. hahaha Imagine that? Reasonably priced A/V.. Does such a Monster actually exist? GRIN, kidding of course.


My favourite for reasonably priced AV is amazon warehouse deals. Other people's returns are my bargains.


----------



## blazar

ALL of the home automation systems of old have the same problem:

These were all created for POORLY designed consumer hardware with a useless industry that too WAY TOO LONG to develop interoperability standards. Many products are very good (like automatic surround field presets in marantz based on signal source) or Marantz's multiple 12v triggers depending on the input you are using. ON the other hand, some devices like apple TV's remote and app are annoying as hell.

If most people in homes are still messing with these systems in 10 years I will be surprised.

I have Control4 and spent a silly amount of money. Clearly a "first world" crisis.

I have the technical knowledge to do ANYTHING in the professional system which makes it even more silly that I can't have access to the developer portion.

I tweak some stuff or add a new device and I have to pay more than the device to get it integrated.

To top it all off, I have to jump between numerous apps anyway. Apple TV has its own proprietary remote for example.


This is why the home automation industry (crestron, etc) are doomed:

Rachio handles my sprinkler system perfectly and I don't have to do anything with it. When I want to see whats going on, I can do so from anywhere, without any other fees. The device is cheap, reliable, and doesn't need to be integrated into anything.

My media room - with a combination of 12triggers and converging playback devices (practically all sources will be available on one box - Apple TV 4k for example) so we won't need medial room automation beyond some basics. Smart-Outlets / 12v wall wart will handle 12 volt trigger functions until the manufacturers make EVERYTHING compatible with homekit, google home, alexa. I can program my receiver volume controls into apple TV remote. Input switching will barely be required and even then alexa capable receivers will simply switch inputs or sound fields by voice. Heck a harmony remote can now handle a fairly complex media room. Simplification of devices and more automatic behavior coupled with apps for the details has pretty much become the norm.

My entire music collection now and movie setup in the near future will be cloud based - more apple TV/apple MUSIC - i won't even need a blu-ray in 5 years... there is nothing left to integrate. Apple TV ties in your cable service now.

security system - WHY do you need two separate parties (security company) and control4 to get you convenience. The answer is: You DONT. If I want the away mode setting to be bundled with turning all lights off, I can get that done with alexa. On the whole, you can get a fully app-controllable system with something like Vivint which will even throw in cameras. This stuff is commodity level cheap now.

Control4 requires just about as many button presses for most tasks as simply going to the primary app for your thermostats for example. the primary app is also not crippled by control4's consistent but limited interface. Sure you can program some more if/then comments but control4 is not room aware anyway. No matter what you do, you still have to dig through buttons.

Most of the time i want to turn off ALL the lights in my house and turn on the stay alarm. to do this, you don't need control4 anymore. yes people have convoluted if/then situations which help in some circumstances but most of these were due to poorly thought out programming in the original device. with hardware itself now pretty much a commodity item (apple 4k tv for under $200!), software is the king and most of the best use cases for all logic programming are being implemented in many devices with everyone now copying eachother.

Lutron caseta based lighting - you have an app for all the lighting and shades and it be integrated easily with alexa, etc. The light switches could stand to come down in price but I think my house would run about $5000 for these switches while control4 was more like $10000. Even most of this can be mitigated in terms of cost. With alexa in mind and ultimately location aware "echo dots" or whatever, you should design home lighting with FAR less switches than in the past. part of the cost was all the various 2-way and 3-way switches and redundancy.

In fact, for bathrooms, closets, attics, you really just need a motion/occupancy switch and this is even better than home automation... and cheaper. I have used these in the last 2 houses.

Motor shades - open and close by voice makes great sense compared to fishing for an APP or finding a wall switch. In fact, you could practically do away with the switches AND the wiring.... save even more money. otherwise shades in our house are on a timer and closed about 3 hours a day when the sun hits the west face of our house and the 18 shades go down. this can be best done with a light sensor or astronomical clock. either way, this can be done with the lutron system / app. self timed shades with voice commands when you want to open and close on demand. thats all we ever need. Does anyone really think that shades need fancy control logic... ok so you are going to have them all open when you enter the house... well you dont need control4 for that anymore either.

just about every interface that control4 has for any type of device is at best consistent, and at worse not good enough to be useful. if you have circumstances that you have to go into the blu-ray player's app anyway from time to time... then you have double work.

You get a device that isn't working quite as expected ... oh cant just change devices, have to call the dealer. the fiasco of dealing with blu-ray UHD for the past 3 months has been the opposite of plug and play in many respects.

Oh did I forget to mention.... drivers won't WORK and driver updates can take quite some time for some devices.

In either case, I just called a local lutron guy to change my lutron QED shade setup to see if you can add a current lutron cloud based control system so that I can liberated from control4.

As we design my brother's house... gone are the days of centralized control systems. can you imagine how much is going to change in another couple of years. the cost of home control will be cheaper than wiring/lights switches pretty soon.


Current recommendation:
1. Fully autonomous devices are best (like rachio for sprinklers) or occupancy sensors for certain areas.
2. LED lighting, so having them on a bit longer is not a big deal in energy. philips bulbs are still too pricey to make any sense... alternatives will be coming soon.
3. security system with its own app and connectivity to homekit,alexa, etc.
4. timer switches for exterior lighting that work on an astronomical clock. a smart one that can reset its own clock via wifi/internet ideally. Why have to touch these at all with LED going on.
5. minimize lighting fixture sets when designing rooms. you do NOT need 6 forms of accent lighting. get everything on 1 or 2 switches and then you can have alexa turn off you room with ease.
6. voice control is fantastic for room lights and a variety of other "best-use" cases. alexa if any cheaper, would be free.
7. get a really good wireless internet if you want spend money. A Ubiquity Unifi system is AMAZING. AMAZING. AMAZING. this is especially true for bigger houses which a standard router will not suffice.
8. wire a house with ethernet and POE switches and a wireless access point in EVERY room for great 5ghz speed with no walls to block your transmission. Ubiquiti does a phenomenal job.
9. thermostats - set a daytime temperature and a night temperature for all points for all common users of various rooms. have simple presets to lower or raise the temp a couple of degrees by voice command. get thermostats that predict slightly higher ambient heating and cooling needs based on the subjective differences due to the outdoor weather. I want thermostats that I NEVER have to touch or play with. FORGET control 4.... if the thermostats can't work without you intervening, then they are just no good. EcoBee and others are getting better and better with cloud functions, outdoor temp prediction, multiple temp sensors, etc. Pretty soon, with geofencing, these things will even be able to warn you if you are away and a heater fails or something.
10. the future of home automation is really that our grandchildren will have no idea what it was to live without. calling a "Dealer" to set up "integration" for you? right... They will think we were stupid that stuff didn't integrate automatically.


----------



## SMHarman

blazar said:


> To top it all off, I have to jump between numerous apps anyway. Apple TV has its own proprietary remote for example
> .


Lots in there but this... Do you have the current atv and up driver?


----------



## ezlotogura

blazar said:


> ALL of the home automation systems of old have the same problem:
> 
> These were all created for POORLY designed consumer hardware with a useless industry that too WAY TOO LONG to develop interoperability standards.


I could go line by line but its too long. First the big players, Crestron, C4, Savant, etc all excel at taking various standards and putting them under one roof. Zwave, Zigbee, Wifi, Ethernet, IR, RS232, etc. So the industry may not have done favors but control systems have done their best to integrate regardless of the hardware.

Your suggestions are almost all IoT capable which are great until the company goes out of business, they decide to change their terms of service, they decide to start charging extra fees, the internet goes down and you lose connection, etc. Then all of your toys are useless. With C4, Crestron, Savant, etc you have a controller local so even if you lose connection to the outside world, your system can still operate. 

you may want to stream your movies, I put them on my local NAS and watch that way. to each his/her own I guess.

Why integrate the alarm with your control system? When my dog walker punches in her code on the Kwikset lock, my DSC alarm turns off, the door opens. When she hits the lock button, the door locks and the alarm goes back on. She doesnt have to talk to Alexa because I do not want an Alexa sitting in my foyer. When my housekeeper comes over, same deal, she puts in her code, the alarm shuts off, doors open and Sonos music turns on to her favorite channel. when she hits the lock button the music turns off, all lights turn off, all doors lock and the alarm goes on. So I am taking hardware from various vendors and making it easy for everyday living. Another example: if my water sensors detect water (DSC alarm panel water sensors) then my watercop will close the main water line to my house to mitigate any major water damage/flooding, I get a text message as well. Lastly when I go to sleep I hit a button (or say a command to alexa) and all of my lights shut off except hallway lights and master bed lights go to 50% and slowly fade to off after 3 mins, my doors (garage and physical doors) lock, my master bedroom tv goes on and my alarm goes on plus depending on the season such as now my Christmas tree goes off. There are more examples but I think I've made my point.

There are lots of debates about c4 lighting, yes its expensive compared to the other options. That said you can use the keypads in various ways:
1) it increases your Zigbee mesh so if you have a big house/project it will make it run better
2) you can use single, double or triple taps so even on a basic switch you have 6 things you can program and that is before you explore keypads which could give you dozens of control on one keypad
3) aesthetically I think they are nicer - especially with the engraving and backlighting - compared to Lutron but I know that is a preference not a fact
4) if you are not RA2 certified as a home user, the cost to hire someone to install/program Lutron then to install in C4 it is proven that the cost savings get squeezed and now become more nominal (depending on the complexity of the project)

Control4, Creston, Savant, etc are not for everyone. Heck I do not drive a fancy car because I do not see the value but I see the value in a smart, safe and reliable home automation system. I have friends with 6 figure cars that are happy with a Harmony remote and Alexa and Nest and they cobble something together and that works for them. Different strokes for different folks.


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## SMHarman

Stuff that composer home or when/then can address


----------



## SMHarman

HE and Pro are virtually identical. Just the system tab where you add devices is missing. 

When/then is out. Any 2.10 system with 4Sight has it.

Adding devices is still a dealer but you can do this remotely if you are competent.


----------



## blazar

ezlotogura said:


> I could go line by line but its too long. First the big players, Crestron, C4, Savant, etc all excel at taking various standards and putting them under one roof. Zwave, Zigbee, Wifi, Ethernet, IR, RS232, etc. So the industry may not have done favors but control systems have done their best to integrate regardless of the hardware.
> 
> Your suggestions are almost all IoT capable which are great until the company goes out of business, they decide to change their terms of service, they decide to start charging extra fees, the internet goes down and you lose connection, etc. Then all of your toys are useless. With C4, Crestron, Savant, etc you have a controller local so even if you lose connection to the outside world, your system can still operate.
> 
> you may want to stream your movies, I put them on my local NAS and watch that way. to each his/her own I guess.
> 
> Why integrate the alarm with your control system? When my dog walker punches in her code on the Kwikset lock, my DSC alarm turns off, the door opens. When she hits the lock button, the door locks and the alarm goes back on. She doesnt have to talk to Alexa because I do not want an Alexa sitting in my foyer. When my housekeeper comes over, same deal, she puts in her code, the alarm shuts off, doors open and Sonos music turns on to her favorite channel. when she hits the lock button the music turns off, all lights turn off, all doors lock and the alarm goes on. So I am taking hardware from various vendors and making it easy for everyday living. Another example: if my water sensors detect water (DSC alarm panel water sensors) then my watercop will close the main water line to my house to mitigate any major water damage/flooding, I get a text message as well. Lastly when I go to sleep I hit a button (or say a command to alexa) and all of my lights shut off except hallway lights and master bed lights go to 50% and slowly fade to off after 3 mins, my doors (garage and physical doors) lock, my master bedroom tv goes on and my alarm goes on plus depending on the season such as now my Christmas tree goes off. There are more examples but I think I've made my point.
> 
> There are lots of debates about c4 lighting, yes its expensive compared to the other options. That said you can use the keypads in various ways:
> 1) it increases your Zigbee mesh so if you have a big house/project it will make it run better
> 2) you can use single, double or triple taps so even on a basic switch you have 6 things you can program and that is before you explore keypads which could give you dozens of control on one keypad
> 3) aesthetically I think they are nicer - especially with the engraving and backlighting - compared to Lutron but I know that is a preference not a fact
> 4) if you are not RA2 certified as a home user, the cost to hire someone to install/program Lutron then to install in C4 it is proven that the cost savings get squeezed and now become more nominal (depending on the complexity of the project)
> 
> Control4, Creston, Savant, etc are not for everyone. Heck I do not drive a fancy car because I do not see the value but I see the value in a smart, safe and reliable home automation system. I have friends with 6 figure cars that are happy with a Harmony remote and Alexa and Nest and they cobble something together and that works for them. Different strokes for different folks.


Oh I'm with you on all your points, which is why I actually have a $100k or so control and shade system i place.

It is just waaaaay to much for what it did/does and there are too many costs associated with adding devices and other factors such as just rearranging inputs on my receiver for example.

I am fully aware of all the reasons why rs232 and contact closure and other techniques are good practice.

I certainly don't want any of these things to go "out of date" and i agree they go out of date no matter what you do.

I think that those times are coming to an end however, and the commoditization of the automation industry is at hand and really just late to the game.

Most of the best practices such as security integration are going to be also straightforward so that 99% of people's automation needs are going to be met and the ones that haven't yet been met.

The bulldozer that is apple/google/amazon cannot be understated.

I'll state it for the record now (come back in 10 years and show me I'm wrong) but the confluence and price of technology is deflating so rapidly now that the dizzying pace is going to lead to mass adoption and standards adherence.

Perhaps you will never satisfy the most OCD among us, but we will get pretty damn close for a lot less than historically has been the case.

IP control over everything is going to be a given. I buy nothing that cant be controlled by simple 12v trigger or IP control or whatever that is mass compatible. I don't mind keeping everything cross compatible either, but I think the need will be reduced as the bigger platforms evolve and survival of the fittest occurs.


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## ezlotogura

blazar said:


> Oh I'm with you on all your points, which is why I actually have a $100k or so control and shade system i place.
> 
> It is just waaaaay to much for what it did/does and there are too many costs associated with adding devices and other factors such as just rearranging inputs on my receiver for example.
> 
> I am fully aware of all the reasons why rs232 and contact closure and other techniques are good practice.
> 
> I certainly don't want any of these things to go "out of date" and i agree they go out of date no matter what you do.
> 
> I think that those times are coming to an end however, and the commoditization of the automation industry is at hand and really just late to the game.
> 
> Most of the best practices such as security integration are going to be also straightforward so that 99% of people's automation needs are going to be met and the ones that haven't yet been met.
> 
> The bulldozer that is apple/google/amazon cannot be understated.
> 
> I'll state it for the record now (come back in 10 years and show me I'm wrong) but the confluence and price of technology is deflating so rapidly now that the dizzying pace is going to lead to mass adoption and standards adherence.
> 
> Perhaps you will never satisfy the most OCD among us, but we will get pretty damn close for a lot less than historically has been the case.
> 
> IP control over everything is going to be a given. I buy nothing that cant be controlled by simple 12v trigger or IP control or whatever that is mass compatible. I don't mind keeping everything cross compatible either, but I think the need will be reduced as the bigger platforms evolve and survival of the fittest occurs.


of course prices are dropping. When plasma tvs hit the market in the 50-60'' range they were $10,000. Now you can get a really quality set for 1/4 of the price if not even less. So you cannot compare your purchase 10 years ago to a purchase today. That said, the bigger systems like Crestron, Savant, C4 etc are established so your gear can work. For the most part I know C4 has gear that is ~10 years old that only recently become EOL if you wanted to upgrade to 2.10. To invest in electronic hardware that will support you for 10 years isnt too shabby in today's market. Look at Apple killing your battery after only a few years!

and cost is subjective, again my friend has a Maserati and a Porsche and I have a Hyundai Santa Fe. He has a hodge podge of Nest and Alexa and Wemo and I have Control4 with almost 100 IP devices on my network. I think he spent way too much on his cars, he thinks I spent way too much on C4. Yet there are C4 dealers and Maserati dealers because people enjoy those items and there is a value, it just may not be of value to you.

I would not downplay Amazon, Apple and Google 100% but people have said for 5+ years they are coming at this space. Homekit is still a joke of an ecosystem with a few dozen toys at best. Homekit was announced at WWDC 2014. There are about 60 homekit approved devices on Apple.com - of which at least a good 1/3 if not more are duplicates (several flavors of a Hue bulb or a wall outlet or switch). I do not see that as the bulldozer for Crestron, C4 or Savant. IFTTT is more powerful than Homekit. Amazon of course has Alexa and its hub and world and its great, but its no replacement for Crestron or C4 or Savant. In fact its a nice addition to to those systems. One day it may replace those systems but I think I personally invested in my hardware in a wise way where I'll get the use out of it. I am already 4+ years into a big C4 investment and I do not see their demise anytime soon over Amazon, Google and Apple. If those companies were smart, or even really interested in the true automation side of things (not control but automation) they would make a play to buy one of the players in the industry, slap on their label and R&D and really blow it up big.


----------



## satboy

ezlotogura said:


> I would not downplay Amazon, Apple and Google 100% but people have said for 5+ years they are coming at this space. Homekit is still a joke of an ecosystem with a few dozen toys at best. Homekit was announced at WWDC 2014. There are about 60 homekit approved devices on Apple.com - of which at least a good 1/3 if not more are duplicates (several flavors of a Hue bulb or a wall outlet or switch). I do not see that as the bulldozer for Crestron, C4 or Savant. IFTTT is more powerful than Homekit. Amazon of course has Alexa and its hub and world and its great, but its no replacement for Crestron or C4 or Savant. In fact its a nice addition to to those systems. One day it may replace those systems but I think I personally invested in my hardware in a wise way where I'll get the use out of it. I am already 4+ years into a big C4 investment and I do not see their demise anytime soon over Amazon, Google and Apple. If those companies were smart, or even really interested in the true automation side of things (not control but automation) they would make a play to buy one of the players in the industry, slap on their label and R&D and really blow it up big.



I have the Wine Relay / Hub2 with Alexa setup and it does what control4 does for a lot less with just as many customization capabilities. The Wink relay is built on top of Android / Google which makes it one of the best out of the box wall controllers. After you modify it like I did in this video you can really have it do anything you want 




All my lights, music, garage doors, locks, blinds, security cameras can be controlled by off the shelf stuff without crazy license fees or jacked up installer costs. Years ago you needed the installer do all the work as the platforms were closed and that was the most reliable way to go, but these days so much application development has been done for the DYI market. There still is a huge custom market but target audience is the elite and non tech savvy community. 

My take on it, plus the Wink Relay Controller after modified will let you control or interface into any home automation system, even Control4


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## ezlotogura

satboy said:


> I have the Wine Relay / Hub2 with Alexa setup and it does what control4 does for a lot less with just as many customization capabilities. The Wink relay is built on top of Android / Google which makes it one of the best out of the box wall controllers. After you modify it like I did in this video you can really have it do anything you want https://youtu.be/WRvV4tZxCxo
> 
> All my lights, music, garage doors, locks, blinds, security cameras can be controlled by off the shelf stuff without crazy license fees or jacked up installer costs. Years ago you needed the installer do all the work as the platforms were closed and that was the most reliable way to go, but these days so much application development has been done for the DYI market. There still is a huge custom market but target audience is the elite and non tech savvy community.
> 
> My take on it, plus the Wink Relay Controller after modified will let you control or interface into any home automation system, even Control4


How does your Wink Relay handle Multi Room 4k streaming content and multi room audio? Lots of the DIY stuff is centered around lights, HVAC and security. Usually does not get heavy into multi room A/V controls. Can Wink control your pool? hot tub? steam shower? You may not have those devices so Wink works for you, but for those people who need those controls, Wink may not cut it.

I am not sure why people try to fit all use cases and their personal needs and declare its good enough for everyone. There is a nice section of the economy where Wink, Google Home, Smart Things, etc all work just fine and thats great. But its even better that our free economy allows for choice and for those who need something else, there are options. Also this forum is NOT a great litmus test, its a forum for DIY types. There are MANY people who do not want to bother. go to a car forum and everyone there would laugh at me because I bring my car to a mechanic. Why, because that is what I want to do. I could change my own oil, but I decided not to. So at a car forum you would think no one sees a mechanic, yet for some reason I am usually waiting 2 weeks to make an appt with my mechanic and he is always full. go figure.


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## satboy

ezlotogura said:


> How does your Wink Relay handle Multi Room 4k streaming content and multi room audio? Lots of the DIY stuff is centered around lights, HVAC and security. Usually does not get heavy into multi room A/V controls. Can Wink control your pool? hot tub? steam shower? You may not have those devices so Wink works for you, but for those people who need those controls, Wink may not cut it.
> 
> I am not sure why people try to fit all use cases and their personal needs and declare its good enough for everyone. There is a nice section of the economy where Wink, Google Home, Smart Things, etc all work just fine and thats great. But its even better that our free economy allows for choice and for those who need something else, there are options. Also this forum is NOT a great litmus test, its a forum for DIY types. There are MANY people who do not want to bother. go to a car forum and everyone there would laugh at me because I bring my car to a mechanic. Why, because that is what I want to do. I could change my own oil, but I decided not to. So at a car forum you would think no one sees a mechanic, yet for some reason I am usually waiting 2 weeks to make an appt with my mechanic and he is always full. go figure.


Agreed video adds complexity but why tie that into the home automation for your standard house? Plex or encoding a stream does a great job for that as a host of other things which are easily available to the consumer. With that said I can understand for large complex multimillion dollar homes DIY is not ideal nor do I encourage it. 

So as you say not all fit all, but the majority of us fit in the DIY category and now we have better access and or applications for quality reliable home automation / controls. 

I also still go to the mechanic but drive in and drive out within an hour or so with no appointment needed, but again we all don't drive what I drive (17 JK JEEP)


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## SMHarman

But Control4 as a universal remote is amazing.


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## ezlotogura

I drive a Hyundai Santa Fe thats 2 yars old, nothing super fancy. My mechanic just has ~10-14 day wait to book an appointment, that's all.
and for the record, I do not live in a mcmansion or a multimillion dollar house. My house was recently appraised and it was not north of a million. so this isnt just for uber wealthy mcmansions

Why tie in video? Again everyone has various use cases. For me, its a 2 person house but we have 8 Tvs. So I did not want to rent 8 cable boxes. I did not want to buy and install Tivos and be tied to Tivo. So I have a Video IP Matrix. I have 2 cable boxes (2 people in the house) and I can watch any box on any of the 8 tvs. I also have a few random streaming boxes and sticks (some local, some centralized/distributed too). My movie collection is on my NAS which i stream with these boxes/sticks. I can also see my cameras on the TV. why is that nice:

1) when the doorbell rings, if a TV is on I get PiP for about 10 seconds showing me a live feed of the TV.
2) when my alarm goes off, if it is past 10pm at night (assumes I am asleep or getting ready for bed) my bedroom TV turns on and I see a 3x3 grid with my 6 cameras to see what is going on and why the alarm went off (broken/entered door, etc)
3) its seamless within my Control4 app/remote experience
4) the matrix decoders also distribute IR and RS232 so its easy to run an ethernet or two to the tv then be able to break out HDMI, IR, RS232 for control, to help control the TV, a local AVR, etc
5) I can distribute the audio of the TV to various rooms with speakers. when we have a superbowl party its nice to have the game playing in the bathroom, or out on the back porch when people go for a smoke or to get a drink from the cooler, etc. we use the audio distribution feature on the video matrix several times a year - super bowl, NYE party, etc since we tend to host parties.

And there are some matrix systems that are DIY - if you like DIY look at video storm and netplay they offer a DIY IP Matrix system that works with Alexa.

I am not sure how you say "a majority of us". Are you talking about AVSForums, if so I agree. If you are talking about the population of AV enthusiasts I am not 100% sure. Most new builds these days have automation systems going in, at least in my neighborhood. Even if they do not go full bore C4 or Crestron or Savant you are seeing Lutron and at least extensive $$ into lighting and shading and the like. So again, its a big vague to say "the majority of us" without claiming who is "us"


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## farsider3000

I love my Control4 system and I have also set up Alexa, Hue, Schlage remote lock, Arlo cameras, Ring doorbell, etc. in my house. The Control 4 system brings everything together on one remote / touchscreen vs. messing with multiple systems. It automatically changes to 16x9 aspect when the system shuts off, controls my AC, fans, lighting in the theater. It's not perfect as I would like voice remote functions occasionally.

Most people are definitely not like us on AVSForum. Very few of my friends have even set up Alexa (and they are all engineers). For 90% of people with the means, there is definitely a market for Control 4. But I also appreciate all the new DIY systems.


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## satboy

ezlotogura said:


> I am not sure how you say "a majority of us". Are you talking about AVSForums, if so I agree. If you are talking about the population of AV enthusiasts I am not 100% sure. Most new builds these days have automation systems going in, at least in my neighborhood. Even if they do not go full bore C4 or Crestron or Savant you are seeing Lutron and at least extensive $$ into lighting and shading and the like. So again, its a big vague to say "the majority of us" without claiming who is "us"


Was talking about AVS, and I agree with all comments and posts, there is a right place and time or situation for it. 

Really just trying to highlight from another post that DYI home automation has come a really long way and I love it. If I had to pony up for the control4 costs and dealer based install as the only supported option I would still be waiting for it. 

Years ago to do what control4 does now was not really out there for the DYI person or easy to implement into a total eco-system, that has changed. 

So the topic was "stay away from control4" and I was just having an open thought to express options as others have commented on.


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## ezlotogura

satboy said:


> Was talking about AVS, and I agree with all comments and posts, there is a right place and time or situation for it.
> 
> Really just trying to highlight from another post that DYI home automation has come a really long way and I love it. If I had to pony up for the control4 costs and dealer based install as the only supported option I would still be waiting for it.
> 
> Years ago to do what control4 does now was not really out there for the DYI person or easy to implement into a total eco-system, that has changed.
> 
> So the topic was "stay away from control4" and I was just having an open thought to express options as others have commented on.


My issue with the original post:
1) it was his first post ever knocking something and never came back to defend
2) some of his arguments were off base - there is something called Composer HE that is the home edition license software. You can do 90% of C4 activities in that program and its owned and run by the end user. Since his post "When/Then" was released which is another user tool where you can program on a touchscreen without your dealer involved.

No one is putting down DIY or C4. The suggestions were that the original poster did not give enough information and put out some potentially false information that other users wanted to clean up so the public knew the options

I will agree AVS is a DIY-centric forum so the mind think here is DIY. But out in the general public there is a big demand for set it and forget it. People do not want to come home at night and have to run updates on 7 different apps, wonder why their IFTTT logic stopped working, etc. They want a local controller, they want someone to manage it, etc. To me, a CI dealer is like an electrician, plumber, etc. half of their work you can technically do without a license, yet a majority of us still call them but there are people who do their own plumbing and electrical work within the local codes.


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## ahard

ezlotogura said:


> I will agree AVS is a DIY-centric forum so the mind think here is DIY. But out in the general public there is a big demand for set it and forget it. People do not want to come home at night and have to run updates on 7 different apps, wonder why their IFTTT logic stopped working, etc. They want a local controller, they want someone to manage it, etc. To me, a CI dealer is like an electrician, plumber, etc. half of their work you can technically do without a license, yet a majority of us still call them but there are people who do their own plumbing and electrical work within the local codes.


I?d agree that most of your middle & upper middle folks like ?do it for me?, which is the point you?re making. However, for a lot of those people I?d guess that their version of do it for me probably doesn?t involve paying thousands upon thousands to have a connected home. That?s 1% territory.

Those 7 apps you mentioned don?t bother the non-AVS gen pop folks bc for most of those apps, you literally set it once & forget it, unless you want to change something. And apps auto update on iOS & Android, which makes updating apps a non-issue.

7 apps isn?t the route that I?d go, but I can see why the non-AVS general population would go that route. For these people, 7 apps are a bargain for a cobbled together system. It allows them to achieve some sort of connectivity that is ?good enough? without taking out a 2nd mortgage.


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## ezlotogura

ahard said:


> I?d agree that most of your middle & upper middle folks like ?do it for me?, which is the point you?re making. However, for a lot of those people I?d guess that their version of do it for me probably doesn?t involve paying thousands upon thousands to have a connected home. That?s 1% territory.
> 
> Those 7 apps you mentioned don?t bother the non-AVS gen pop folks bc for most of those apps, you literally set it once & forget it, unless you want to change something. And apps auto update on iOS & Android, which makes updating apps a non-issue.
> 
> 7 apps isn?t the route that I?d go, but I can see why the non-AVS general population would go that route. For these people, 7 apps are a bargain for a cobbled together system. It allows them to achieve some sort of connectivity that is ?good enough? without taking out a 2nd mortgage.


lucky me I guess I am in the 1%. Never knew it til I came to an AVS Forum.....

You and others make some very interested proclamations about 1%s and statistics and demographics yet no one really backs up anything with data. I will say I am glad I have the honor to meet someone online such as yourself who has such knowledge and insight into the buying perspective, budgets and home needs within AV, security and automation for over 300+ million people. Very insightful, I must trust EVERYTHING you say to be real.

We can agree to disagree. I am NOT in the 1% and I have Control4. what bracket or label can you toss me into? Does your demographic labeling have a name for me?

Wake up, everyone is different. people have different needs, spend their money how they want, etc. If you think you know the whims of 300+ million americans and can draw a broad overview of peoples income and allude to their desire for how many apps based on income and age then you are one wise guy and you got it all figured out - congrats!


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## SMHarman

ezlotogura said:


> lucky me I guess I am in the 1%. Never knew it til I came to an AVS Forum.....
> 
> You and others make some very interested proclamations about 1%s and statistics and demographics yet no one really backs up anything with data.
> 
> We can agree to disagree. I am NOT in the 1% and I have Control4. what bracket or label can you toss me into?


Control4 demographic is households with 6 figure incomes. 

Pretty sure I saw that slide once.


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## ezlotogura

SMHarman said:


> Control4 demographic is households with 6 figure incomes.
> 
> Pretty sure I saw that slide once.


6 figures doesnt equate to the "1%'ers" that people throw around. $100k in NYC is not the same as $100k in Podunk, ID. But ahard knows that because he has the demographics on everyone in the US and can crunch that data to spit it out in 2-3 brief general statements


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## SMHarman

ezlotogura said:


> 6 figures doesnt equate to the "1%'ers" that people throw around. $100k in NYC is not the same as $100k in Podunk, ID. But ahard knows that because he has the demographics on everyone in the US and can crunch that data to spit it out in 2-3 brief general statements


Here we go. Pages 6 and 7 of this Pdf/ppt. 
Numbered 5 and 6 in the bottom middle. https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5a56d0fe232f7/v1.0_CTRL_Investor_Deck_4-5-16.pdf


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## ezlotogura

SMHarman said:


> Here we go. Pages 6 and 7 of this Pdf/ppt.
> Numbered 5 and 6 in the bottom middle. https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5a56d0fe232f7/v1.0_CTRL_Investor_Deck_4-5-16.pdf


I am not saying you are wrong. I just said $100k in NYC is not the same as $100k in Podunk, ID. Something I wish our government recognized as well but I won't go into that tangent


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## SMHarman

ezlotogura said:


> I am not saying you are wrong. I just said $100k in NYC is not the same as $100k in Podunk, ID. Something I wish our government recognized as well but I won't go into that tangent


I live in NYC, I wish you were wrong.


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## ezlotogura

I live in Bergen County my friend. Your pain is my pain.


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## ahard

ezlotogura said:


> lucky me I guess I am in the 1%. Never knew it til I came to an AVS Forum.....
> 
> You and others make some very interested proclamations about 1%s and statistics and demographics yet no one really backs up anything with data. I will say I am glad I have the honor to meet someone online such as yourself who has such knowledge and insight into the buying perspective, budgets and home needs within AV, security and automation for over 300+ million people. Very insightful, I must trust EVERYTHING you say to be real.
> 
> We can agree to disagree. I am NOT in the 1% and I have Control4. what bracket or label can you toss me into? Does your demographic labeling have a name for me?
> 
> Wake up, everyone is different. people have different needs, spend their money how they want, etc. If you think you know the whims of 300+ million americans and can draw a broad overview of peoples income and allude to their desire for how many apps based on income and age then you are one wise guy and you got it all figured out - congrats!


 I don't know what bracket you're in, but good for you that you're able to afford your system. I'm not trying to throw shade your way brother. 
Instead of 1% I could have used high-income earners. The point that I was trying to make is that high-income earners are *probably* more likely to gravitate to a installer based system such as C4, etc versus someone that makes $60k. Yes, yes, I know that there are some individuals that make $60k that can afford and will get a installer based system. However, those folks are the outliers of a very small subset of people that are a part of a smaller subset of people. The other point that I was trying to make is that folks that use multiple apps to cobble together a system *may* not feel burdened by having to use multiple apps to get a system that won't set them back a significant amount of money.


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## ezlotogura

ahard said:


> I don't know what bracket you're in, but good for you that you're able to afford your system. I'm not trying to throw shade your way brother.
> Instead of 1% I could have used high-income earners. The point that I was trying to make is that high-income earners are *probably* more likely to gravitate to a installer based system such as C4, etc versus someone that makes $60k. Yes, yes, I know that there are some individuals that make $60k that can afford and will get a installer based system. However, those folks are the outliers of a very small subset of people that are a part of a smaller subset of people. The other point that I was trying to make is that folks that use multiple apps to cobble together a system *may* not feel burdened by having to use multiple apps to get a system that won't set them back a significant amount of money.


agreed which is why there is a market for everyone and everything. i do not believe anyone put down a system cobbled together with 7 apps. I am only trying to dispel some myths and rumors that may be inaccurate so people have the facts.


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## smoothtlk

What I have observed - numbers are for illustration purposes only:

Group 1: 85%: Has a home, but has zero interest or knowledge of any remote control beyond the IR remote their TV / Cable Box / Sat Box came with. This group is shrinking somewhat quickly as of recent.
Group 2: 5%: Has some kind of smart all in one remote they bought at a Big Box or WalMart because they got tired of keeping multiple remotes on the TV table. Stable sized group.
Group 3: 2%: Has some kind of "remote control" ie: hub to provide smartphone based remote control of lighting that was installed by the home owner. This is the growing Group.
Group 4: 2%: Uses their smartphone app to control their streaming media. No lighting control. User installed. This is a quickly growing group.
Group 5: 1%: Has some kind of dealer installed automation. Could be the same hardware as Group 3. This group is shrinking to Group 3 as "hubs" become more known and easier to install ("I saw it at Home Depot").
Group 6: .01% Has one of a few dealer only installed systems: C4, Savant, Crestron. This group is shrinking, even though the affluence of the customer base is growing.
Group 7: .001% Has one of a few "Master Controller" system that are typically PC based: myServer, Homeseer, CQC etc. Typically DIY, but some Dealer installed. This group is slowly growing but suffers from little awareness.
Group 8: .001% Open source / hobbyist implementations that live on OpenHab, Rasperry Pi, Arduino level systems. This group is slowly growing. Same home could have multiple systems at once in different states of "disarray".

The rest of the 100% is a bunch of other varieties, none of which really make up any volume.

I never saw a real study / survey on the above and it would be hard for me to trust a survey result as it would tend to be skewed by the sponsor.

Anyone see any other significant groups that I am not thinking of?
Any other sense of sizing and trend?

We are all on AVSForum so we are all skewed ourselves


----------



## Dean Roddey

I remember when Apple announced Homekit. There were Apple people all over the various HA forums talking about how Apple was finally going to come in and clean house and put all of these 'old fashioned' systems out of business because Apple understands what people want, and they have a huge installed user base. I tried to put things into perspective but was mostly argued down.

But of course Apple hasn't put anyone out of business. It's just yet another player of probably at least tens by now who are going to be fighting it out for the low end of the automation market. None of them is going take over even the low end of the market, though a lot of them will fold ultimately. Some number of players will continue to make it a fractured market. It's going to become more and more a commodity market, with fewer and fewer barriers to entry for companies who will be willing to do it for less (even if they end up going out of business in a few years.) And none of them are going to make the Control4 or CQC type products obsolete.

By definition anything simple enough to have mass appeal cannot compete in a market that requires fairly heavily customization, which is sort of the point of 'old fashioned' automation systems, particularly on the commercial front which is where a lot of their revenues come from. And these commodity level systems will never have the same level of robustness because the price point just won't allow for the type of over-engineering that the higher end requires. 

Some companies may start to try to differentiate themselves by moving up scale, but they'll be taking the long road right to where all of us old timers have been from the start. No company has the pockets deep enough to make all the bits themselves (a la the usual Apple strategy) in order to allow it to be both easy to set up and comprehensive. Even for a very large company that's a money pit. Ultimately all roads to higher end automation involve the automation system going to the mountain, because the mountain ain't gonna come to it. It means embracing the integration of a wide variety of hardware with all their quirks. And that's right back to where we are now.

The fundamental issue is that the world of things to be controlled is VASTLY larger that the world of things that do the controlling. There's no way that that huge and very diverse world of companies is going jump just because Apple or Google or anyone else says jump. So we will never live in a homogeneous hardware world. The only way to get around it will be to limit yourself pretty seriously as to your hardware options (and everyone likes to have best of breed this'es or that'es) or leave significant parts of their home outside of the automation system really. Or you embrace the complexity of the world, as traditional automation systems always have.


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## blazar

SMHarman said:


> But Control4 as a universal remote is amazing.


almost except for what I want to use a remote for most:

selecting my tracks on apple music (which i jump to ipad for)

or using voice control for password or search (there is no keyboard on the control4 remote)


I think the issue for me is that Apple makes all it's stuff for touch screens and ios. it makes the remote experience with control4 a constant bouncing around between various remotes and techniques which defies the point of having the c4 remote in the first place.

I moved everything to voice that I could and I'm using the apple tv 4k remote for everything else now.


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## griffithjerryl

Henry Tsang said:


> We installed Control4 system in our new home five years ago. Ever since we became hostages of the dealer. Control4 system is dealer originated system - every little changes, updates - you need to call your dealer for services. Since technology changes so fast and our needs changes, it is very frustrating to rely on the dealer to keep up the Control4 system to an optimal condition at all time. I wish I could undo all the wiring and installation of the Control4 system in my house to gain my control back.


You are so correct. I was sold a Control 4 system in 2011 and it was pure junk and virtually useless. I learned lesson the hard way. After a year I told the dealer just take that junk back and I want least half my money back. The lesson I learned is to always use ONLY NATIVE SOFTWARE of the vendors product you are controlling. For AV the Universal Remote Control MX-450 I got few years will control 18 devices and it will learn all the functions of the native remote. It simply executes MACROS in the sequence set. There is no way one Vendor like Control 4 could develop a device that will replicate all the features Lutron Lighting controls, Jandy iAqualink pool equipment control, Garage Door control, Deadbolt control, HVAC thermostats, security keypads, surveillance cameras, etc. I access and control all these with smart phone/smart pad apps using NATIVE apps.


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## smoothtlk

griffithjerryl said:


> ...There is no way one Vendor like Control 4 could develop a device that will replicate all the features Lutron Lighting controls, Jandy iAqualink pool equipment control, Garage Door control, Deadbolt control, HVAC thermostats, security keypads, surveillance cameras, etc. I access and control all these with smart phone/smart pad apps using NATIVE apps.


There are quite a few companies that support the majority of functions of the majority of popular hardware.
We add additional functions (that are supported by the devices API / SDK) on a request basis with typically a couple day turnaround all the time. Usually when a device's firmware is updated or a newer model extends the original functionality of the device the software driver was originally written for.

Using the OE's apps for a complicated system is just complicated.


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## SMHarman

griffithjerryl said:


> You are so correct. I was sold a Control 4 system in 2011 and it was pure junk and virtually useless. I learned lesson the hard way. After a year I told the dealer just take that junk back and I want least half my money back. The lesson I learned is to always use ONLY NATIVE SOFTWARE of the vendors product you are controlling. For AV the Universal Remote Control MX-450 I got few years will control 18 devices and it will learn all the functions of the native remote. It simply executes MACROS in the sequence set. There is no way one Vendor like Control 4 could develop a device that will replicate all the features Lutron Lighting controls, Jandy iAqualink pool equipment control, Garage Door control, Deadbolt control, HVAC thermostats, security keypads, surveillance cameras, etc. I access and control all these with smart phone/smart pad apps using NATIVE apps.


You are right there is no way they could develop a device that will replicate all the features, but how often do you use all the features and how many features are set and forget. 

So Control4 can develop a user interface proxy that replicates the commonly used features of a device.

Control4 or a TP vendor can develop a driver to map the API of the device (serial, IR, IP, Zigbee, other Rf by a proxy) to those interface proxy. 

API are pretty stable. The IR commands for one Motorola cable box are a lot like another. Vendors often let companies like control4 know when they are changing this stuff.

Control4 build a Ui/UX and remote access and a baseline set of drivers to connect that to many devices. They have opened their driver development so others can also fill the gaps or even so product manufacturers (e.g. Kscape) can contract with c4 or a developer (e.g. Chowmain) to build that driver / bridge. 

You really think that is the hard part.


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## sbarnesvta

griffithjerryl said:


> You are so correct. I was sold a Control 4 system in 2011 and it was pure junk and virtually useless. I learned lesson the hard way. After a year I told the dealer just take that junk back and I want least half my money back. The lesson I learned is to always use ONLY NATIVE SOFTWARE of the vendors product you are controlling. For AV the Universal Remote Control MX-450 I got few years will control 18 devices and it will learn all the functions of the native remote. It simply executes MACROS in the sequence set. There is no way one Vendor like Control 4 could develop a device that will replicate all the features Lutron Lighting controls, Jandy iAqualink pool equipment control, Garage Door control, Deadbolt control, HVAC thermostats, security keypads, surveillance cameras, etc. I access and control all these with smart phone/smart pad apps using NATIVE apps.


Having 10 apps is like having 10 remotes, it is a shame the dealer sounds like they came up short in the satiation department, but control systems definitely still have their place.


----------



## blazar

two of my light switches sorta died. this is around the 4th or 5th that has died since purchase about 4-5 years ago. Calling out a guy and getting a) new light switches and b) the service call is a not convenient.

Now that I am getting a Lutron smart hub to do my shades, I am going to consider changing light switches as they die to lutron. 

Paying $10k for light switches that die with in 5 years, it is simply indefensible. Any normal person would clearly think I was a complete moron, not just "some rich guy" getting a better experience.

perhaps the most recent generation of control 4 switches is better, but having a dead switch where your room just goes dark unless you pay the ransom of $200 bucks is problematic at best.


----------



## smoothtlk

blazar said:


> two of my light switches sorta died. this is around the 4th or 5th that has died since purchase about 4-5 years ago. Calling out a guy and getting a) new light switches and b) the service call is a not convenient.
> 
> Now that I am getting a Lutron smart hub to do my shades, I am going to consider changing light switches as they die to lutron.
> 
> Paying $10k for light switches that die with in 5 years, it is simply indefensible. Any normal person would clearly think I was a complete moron, not just "some rich guy" getting a better experience.
> 
> perhaps the most recent generation of control 4 switches is better, but having a dead switch where your room just goes dark unless you pay the ransom of $200 bucks is problematic at best.


Your contractor charged $200 to replace one light switch?
That doesn't sound too unreasonable if that is the only purpose for the call. Figure it took him X minutes to go to the jobsite, Y minutes to diagnose and check, Z minutes to remove and Replace the switch and then P minutes to program the system...that sounds like a minimum of two hours on a good day. $100 / hr is about right. Your auto dealership is charging more than that and you bring the car to them.

If you can do it yourself, then you are a DIY'r. And you probably should consider adding in DIY products (like Lutron Casetta). The problem will be integrating the Casetta stuff into the Control4 stuff...you will have a piece meal system until all remnents of C4 are gone.


----------



## blazar

smoothtlk said:


> Your contractor charged $200 to replace one light switch?
> That doesn't sound too unreasonable if that is the only purpose for the call. Figure it took him X minutes to go to the jobsite, Y minutes to diagnose and check, Z minutes to remove and Replace the switch and then P minutes to program the system...that sounds like a minimum of two hours on a good day. $100 / hr is about right. Your auto dealership is charging more than that and you bring the car to them.
> 
> If you can do it yourself, then you are a DIY'r. And you probably should consider adding in DIY products (like Lutron Casetta). The problem will be integrating the Casetta stuff into the Control4 stuff...you will have a piece meal system until all remnents of C4 are gone.


Ok so you see no issue with light switches (a commodity item to say the least) failing at this rate requiring intermittent replacement?

I understand the economics of the dealer labor, etc

What I have the problem with is replacing light switches at these price points with such a high frequency. These things were just not built robust 
enough for serious usage.

I have musical instruments which are electronic, vastly more complex, and capable of lasting well into decades without dying arbitrarily. It's not like the lightswitch has firmware or batteries that need to be changed. The hardware just simple was not built well enough... pure and simple.

The "convenience" of the "smart" lightswitch ends the moment you have to have someone have to come out and fix it. I have to stay home from work and let the guy in to work on the house... and then go make money so I can pay him. And this is post-tax money I have to spend...

My wife is hating the dark room in the meantime and thinks I'm an idiot for bothering with these systems. If you can't keep the wife happy, you can't justify buying this sort of stuff.

Water heaters and other components in a house can 'go down' as well but when you have a 100 switches, and periodically one goes out here and there... its like you ALWAYS have something broken!


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## blazar

griffithjerryl said:


> You are so correct. I was sold a Control 4 system in 2011 and it was pure junk and virtually useless. I learned lesson the hard way. After a year I told the dealer just take that junk back and I want least half my money back. The lesson I learned is to always use ONLY NATIVE SOFTWARE of the vendors product you are controlling. For AV the Universal Remote Control MX-450 I got few years will control 18 devices and it will learn all the functions of the native remote. It simply executes MACROS in the sequence set. There is no way one Vendor like Control 4 could develop a device that will replicate all the features Lutron Lighting controls, Jandy iAqualink pool equipment control, Garage Door control, Deadbolt control, HVAC thermostats, security keypads, surveillance cameras, etc. I access and control all these with smart phone/smart pad apps using NATIVE apps.


I a agree completely with the issue of native apps. There are downsides but you end up learning to live with them for a dramatically cheaper situation.

There are definitely some products I think are better off with no integration. If they were developed well enough, then their own app ecosystem and product should handle itself. RAchio water sprinkler products are a fantastic example.

The concept of high end systems with distributed audio/video seems to come up from time to time on this thread as a reason to get a more complex system. At this point, I can put an apple TV in every room and get most of what most people care about. You can distrubute our family photos, our purchased videos, various cable providers and news sources (assuming you pay for them), a huge library in Apple Music (including our uploaded stuff). Sure we can't play games yet but you could throw a HDFURY Vertex inline with with apple TV and the TV now in order to get a gaming system in there. You just have the game system over-ride the apple tv when it turns on and you are good to go.

I am not seeing the need to "distribute" audio and video in a home anymore in the classic sense. Everyone watches something different and I have to control who watches what (kids, etc).


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## SMHarman

blazar said:


> Ok so you see no issue with light switches (a commodity item to say the least) failing at this rate requiring intermittent replacement?
> 
> I understand the economics of the dealer labor, etc
> 
> What I have the problem with is replacing light switches at these price points with such a high frequency. These things were just not built robust
> enough for serious usage.
> 
> I have musical instruments which are electronic, vastly more complex, and capable of lasting well into decades without dying arbitrarily. It's not like the lightswitch has firmware or batteries that need to be changed. The hardware just simple was not built well enough... pure and simple.
> 
> The "convenience" of the "smart" lightswitch ends the moment you have to have someone have to come out and fix it. I have to stay home from work and let the guy in to work on the house... and then go make money so I can pay him. And this is post-tax money I have to spend...
> 
> My wife is hating the dark room in the meantime and thinks I'm an idiot for bothering with these systems. If you can't keep the wife happy, you can't justify buying this sort of stuff.
> 
> Water heaters and other components in a house can 'go down' as well but when you have a 100 switches, and periodically one goes out here and there... its like you ALWAYS have something broken!


But it is like the lights are electronics and have firmware and maybe batteries etc.


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## griffithjerryl

I have had Lutron switches for 7 years now and never had a hardware or software failure. They are pricy at $100 a switch but they work. Not only can I control them from anywhere in the world I have a signal for my smart phone I can even give my lights in Arkansas verbal commands from the tip of Baja Peninsula. Not that it is useful from Mexico but its cool. When at home its useful because when I see a light on that needs to be off I just tell SIRI and she turns it off and don't have to get up out of my easy chair. When I am in my theater working on my laptop I have the lights on but when I am ready to watch the Super Bowl I tell SIRI turn my theater lights down to 15%. I didn't install Lutron switches in closets or laundry room and not guest baths but I installed them all other areas in and outside lighting. I have had two of the Standard Rocker switches fail but never a Lutron switch.

My darn new construction electrician refused to install them telling me how much trouble it would be and he went on to tell me that he installed some before and even the factory rep couldn't make them work. After he finished the job I just went right behind him and installed the Lurton switches myself. I just connected the wires the same way he had wired the regular switches and worked perfectly. I knew the next job he was on so I took him the box of 40+ regular rocker switches and said "here, use these on another job...I hade to throw them away". He asked who installed them and I said I did. Years ago on another home 10 years old that had power attic ventilator fans that died. When I sold they house I had them replaced with the gravity turbines and I needed to have the switch killed and capped so I called the electrician that I used to wire the house when I built it telling him what I needed him to do. He said "you can do it...just don't touch two wires". That was 17 years ago. Since then if a switch or GFCI fails I replace it myself with it hot without tripping the breaker...I just don't touch two wires. Installing 40+ switches I would occasionally touch two by accident and that would bite me a little and trip the breaker. I don't work above 110 Volts. I do not touch 220.

Lutron has continuously updated their software. One of the newest is the Lutron Connect Bridge and Apple TV with Home Kit is used which accommodates the verbal commands. The local distributor (not a dealer - they sell to dealers) gave the Radio RA2 software to me to get me started. I got so interested I started doing lots of research on their website and found where I could earn their Radio RA2 Level One degree and have my own access to the Radio RA2 software. So I frequently check for upgrades. Lutron RadioRA2 is now integrated with Sonos but as I mentioned I don't even try to do those integrations because they are really not useful to me. I did integrate my Lutron lighting with my security system. There is a Lutron Radio RA2 forum that I went to and asked the question how I could integrate my Security System with the Lurton RA2 VRCX which is designed for that purpose as well as control and program garage door openers, gates, etc. An electrical engineer on the Lutron Forum told me buy ELK-950 Relay and install on the siren output to connect the wiring to the Lurton RA2 VRCX which I programed when there is an alarm condition which has continuous output at the Security panel to "Lock on all interior light except master suite and blink all outside lights including floods, coach, cans on the porches plus entry and dining chandelier blink since they are visible form outside. The switches are LOCKED and cannot be turned off but after the alarm condition is cured the lights go back to where they were before the alarm. That is the only integration I have and that was so simple for $8.50 Relay from Elk products. Thus the ELK- part number prefix. The owner of the ELK manufacturing company is named Moose thus use of the ELK prefix for part number.

You can go to this link to check on the training before you acquire any Radio RA2 parts so you can have the software on hand before you get started. lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/3682540d_RA2%20Qual%20L1%20BLAST.PDF I got so interested I thought I might even get into lighting consulting on new construction (a retro install is even easier) but as time went by and the software was continuously updated I could see where I would get a lot of phone calls for program changes. You design scenes as you think you want them but then decide later you want to change the scene. I thought I would just train the user on the software but lot people are not very tech savvy but have the money to afford Lutron Radio RA2. You don't have to tell them about the software updates. They never see that unless they did some kind of Google search to check on it. The Apple Home Kit and SIRI integration verbal commands I just updated my system three months ago to that capability. The supplier I used and still do for the Lutron Radio RA2 Connect Bridge 2 I just bought. The best prices that I found and turned out to be good service also is prolighting DOT com out of Brighton, Michigan.

Guess you can tell I am hyped on Lutron Radio RA2. I have never had one issue in the 7 full years this equipment has been installed. It takes a Main Repeater that stores your scenes and settings as well as a connection to your network and Auxiliary Repeaters if you send signals more than 30 ft. Auxiliary Repeaters need to be within 60 ft of main or another Auxiliary Repeater. They use low frequency radio signals that don't travel far but are extremely reliable is what I read in their literature. They been correct with that assertion for past 7 years for me. I have never had a signal fail, hardware failure, nothing at all. I have a one level 4200 SF home with a Main and two Auxiliary Repeaters and the one VCRX Visor Control Receiver. You can have your auto HomeLink learn the signal from the VCRX and set that where you can do an ALL ON SCENE from your vehicle as you drive up.


----------



## AidenL

I agree that Control 4 should be avoided. 

I’ve had another visit from my local dealer, supposedly to stabilize my network. However after this visit, the satellite box won’t change channels, some pre programmed buttons on the remote have vanished, scans of media don’t update and many more small glitches. 

And all these visits are chargeable. 

I’m going to buy three Harmony Elites and switch over to them, at least I’ll have control of setup myself. 

Maybe it’s down to the dealer, but C4 can go horribly wrong.


----------



## eatenbacktolife

Always lots of negative C4 posts around here, even with the small amount of traffic this section of forum gets.

I don't install it, but I'm amazed how badly some of these people **** it up? You can't really customize the interface (unless that's changed.) You literally drag and drop the devices in and tell the software how everything is plugged in. Doing a basic residential system should be idiot proof barring issues with all the junk hardware and products out there nowadays.

What does stabilizing the network mean anyways? What did he bill you for? The amount of basic network no-nos I've seen by many "professionals" of different industries is staggering.

I would try and find a different dealer that can do everything remotely and cheaply.


----------



## AidenL

eatenbacktolife said:


> Always lots of negative C4 posts around here, even with the small amount of traffic this section of forum gets.
> 
> I don't install it, but I'm amazed how badly some of these people **** it up? You can't really customize the interface (unless that's changed.) You literally drag and drop the devices in and tell the software how everything is plugged in. Doing a basic residential system should be idiot proof barring issues with all the junk hardware and products out there nowadays.
> 
> What does stabilizing the network mean anyways? What did he bill you for? The amount of basic network no-nos I've seen by many "professionals" of different industries is staggering.
> 
> I would try and find a different dealer that can do everything remotely and cheaply.


I agree, for the frequency of installs, there’s a high degree of dissatisfaction it seems.

This dealer blames my changing ISP and the router they supplied for the issues. But since he visited, all these issues started.

I’m not sure my internet is fast enough to allow a remote dealer to do his thing.


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## SMHarman

AidenL said:


> I agree, for the frequency of installs, there’s a high degree of dissatisfaction it seems.
> 
> This dealer blames my changing ISP and the router they supplied for the issues. But since he visited, all these issues started.
> 
> I’m not sure my internet is fast enough to allow a remote dealer to do his thing.


The remote dealer is looking at a fairly tiny XML file. Your network is fast enough find c4 forums and a remote dealer and watch magic happen.


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## ezlotogura

Your dealer is messing it up. Did you ask for referrals on his work?

Changing your ISP and router could mess things up depending on if dhcp reservations or static IPs were used. 

You need a good network to run Control4. Sometimes the routers you get from telco companies can be the problem 

What router are you using? What switch are you using? How is it all wired? And know if it?s static IP or dhcp reservations?

Go to c4forums.com and go to the remote dealer section - any internet connection is sufficient for remote services. If you want a recommendation PM me here and I can provide you some contact info to a few dealers.


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## ezlotogura

Also where do you get statistics that there a high amount of bad installs? 

People usually post to a forum when things are bad not going well. 

Their sales grow quarter over quarter. If they were so bad not sure they would be seeing their current growth.


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## Chiflyfisher

I have a Control 4 system in my family room. I'm not controlling lights, blinds, temperature with it; but, i am using it to control all of my components. It works flawlessly. I love it. Initially it didn't have all the functionality of, as an example, my Denon remote. I had them come back out and add more functionality to it - no issues. I have a solid dealer - ListenUp - in Denver that does my work.


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## SMHarman

Mine is controlling gen2 lights, Gen3 lights, panel lights, dmx lights, AV, blinds, 6 zones of audio, door entry and water leak detection. 

Flawlessly. 

I just switched my firewall / dhcp from Apple to Ubiquity ( all routing is on a planet switch). That took a couple of hours to remap all the static ip for various devices and without that things stop working but it is all good again.


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## AidenL

ezlotogura said:


> Your dealer is messing it up. Did you ask for referrals on his work?
> 
> Changing your ISP and router could mess things up depending on if dhcp reservations or static IPs were used.
> 
> You need a good network to run Control4. Sometimes the routers you get from telco companies can be the problem
> 
> What router are you using? What switch are you using? How is it all wired? And know if it?s static IP or dhcp reservations?
> 
> Go to c4forums.com and go to the remote dealer section - any internet connection is sufficient for remote services. If you want a recommendation PM me here and I can provide you some contact info to a few dealers.


I didn’t get any recommendations no, I went with the local dealer. 

ISP router is in modem mode, then a Draytek Router, TP Link switch, and all fixed IPs. 

I’m on the C4 forums, but even there, seems some of my questions can’t be answered.



ezlotogura said:


> Also where do you get statistics that there a high amount of bad installs?
> 
> People usually post to a forum when things are bad not going well.
> 
> Their sales grow quarter over quarter. If they were so bad not sure they would be seeing their current growth.


I guess growth can happen in a growing economy, in a niche market, as many, like me I must admit, may not have researched Control 4 thoroughly in advance, else we would have been aware of the potential issues.

I’m reading the Trustpilot reviews, seems to be a lot of dissatisfied customers there?


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## ezlotogura

The media and customers love Nest

https://www.trustpilot.com/review/nest.com 

They get 1 star on Trustpilot. 

On Amazon Nest gets 4.5 out of 5 stars in over 17,000 reviews. 

Trustpilot is all complaints. I?m not going to look up every company to compare another source of reviews to trustpilot but people use these forums mostly to complain and not applaud companies.


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## AidenL

ezlotogura said:


> The media and customers love Nest
> 
> https://www.trustpilot.com/review/nest.com
> 
> They get 1 star on Trustpilot.
> 
> On Amazon Nest gets 4.5 out of 5 stars in over 17,000 reviews.
> 
> Trustpilot is all complaints. I?m not going to look up every company to compare another source of reviews to trustpilot but people use these forums mostly to complain and not applaud companies.


I do agree that forums in general tend to attract negative comments. 

I only have my own experience with Control 4 to draw my own conclusions from in all fairness, but it is a three year saga. Maybe I only have myself to blame for not changing my tack sooner.


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## SMHarman

ezlotogura said:


> The media and customers love Nest
> 
> https://www.trustpilot.com/review/nest.com
> 
> They get 1 star on Trustpilot.
> 
> On Amazon Nest gets 4.5 out of 5 stars in over 17,000 reviews.
> 
> Trustpilot is all complaints. I?m not going to look up every company to compare another source of reviews to trustpilot but people use these forums mostly to complain and not applaud companies.


Nest, comparing a single plug and play device with a box that controls Nest and many thousands of other devices.


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## ezlotogura

I see you are on the c4 forums. Did you PM any dealers? Pm me here or there (eggzlot on that board) and I can send you a few referrals

End of day stop chasing one problem after another. Speak to someone qualified. Get your system set up working. Then you can post and tinker and play. But by your questions it seems like you are chasing your tail. Work with 1 person. Get everything fixed. Then when you want to do something creative and fun ask the masses on the forum and use everyone?s input. 

Support should usually come from 1 person. I am technically inclined as is my brother in law. He ?supports? all of my parents computer and cell phone issues. I could too. But since he used my parents to babysit he sees them more than I do. And we all agreed too many cooks in the kitchen and if I fix something and my brother in law didn?t know it could break a fix he implemented. Long story but you see the point I hope. Get a good dealer. Get your system running as intended. Then reach out to others about fun enhancements and how to grow your system

Enough ranting for me today


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## ezlotogura

SMHarman said:


> ezlotogura said:
> 
> 
> 
> The media and customers love Nest
> 
> https://www.trustpilot.com/review/nest.com
> 
> They get 1 star on Trustpilot.
> 
> On Amazon Nest gets 4.5 out of 5 stars in over 17,000 reviews.
> 
> Trustpilot is all complaints. I?m not going to look up every company to compare another source of reviews to trustpilot but people use these forums mostly to complain and not applaud companies.
> 
> 
> 
> Nest, comparing a single plug and play device with a box that controls Nest and many thousands of other devices.
Click to expand...

Not comparing their abilities. Just that product X is a media darling and is loved on Amazon but that same product has an awful rating on trustedpilot. I know amazon reviews can sometimes be inflated but not usually for very large popular products like Nest. And I don?t even have Nest - it was just the first big consumer product for a household that came to mind.


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## 39CentStamp

These are the common complaints from people who are not happy with their "Smart Home" Home Automation/Distributed Audio Video systems:

*1. Costs too much.* I wont even bother responding to this one because a helicopter costs too much...so i don't have one. Someday if i have the money i might buy one...and when i do...i wont complain that it costs too much to buy...maintain etc.


*2. Dealer holding me/my system hostage.* There are usually two types of these complaints. Type one is about the cost to change things and the other is about code/software "they wont give me the code".

"they want to charge me for every little change". Companies charge for what they do. $75-150 an hour is typical for all service companies and most companies charge you a trip fee. This usually falls under item 1 "Costs too much".

But...

I can totally understand anger and frustration and feeling like you are getting ripped off when products fail or the installation never really ends because your "AV guy" never finishes because expectations were never set so no one knows what the finish line is and then things start to fail and you dont know if it should be covered under warranty...or covered because it was never properly installed/programmed or if its a legit failure or change that you should be paying for. We all have stories...here is mine. I bought a remodeled 60 year old house. Basement toilet wouldn't drain. Plumber charged me $115 to walk into my basement bath and tell me to call a septic company to drain the tank. So i did that...problem wasn't solved and the tank "didn't need to be drained" (says the septic guy) but i did it anyway. $300 later i still have a basement bath toilet that wont drain. I call plumber #2 and pay him $800 to replace the ejector pump. 

It's common for first time "Smart Home" customers to end up frustrated. Luckily there is more awareness these days because of forums like this and the fact that more people today have Control 4 Savant Crestron etc. The reality is that all of these control systems work and can be great. Some have limitations. Others have no limitations but often cost more to get the extra bells and whistles. The hard part isnt choosing Savant or Crestron or Control 4 (or whatever). The hard part is finding/choosing the right dealer/installer. This is really hard because even if Company A has great reviews today and lots of happy clients...it doesn't mean they will be around in 3 or 10 years or that their quality of work will be the same. This is a reality for every business. Your favorite pizza joint might start to suck next week because they changed the sauce. 

It is what it is. All you can do is pick who you think the best is and make sure you cover yourself with things like copies of the programming code being stored at your house so its not all just gone when a company vanishes. F what the dealer tells you about the software and code. Negotiate this up front before they get a signed contract. If they wont budge call the next dealer on your list. No company should be able to keep you from making changes or "screwing it all up" (this is the ridiculous excuse most dealers give you when they wont give you software/code). Its your system and your right to change it..or break it. Understand though that if you do break it...the company will charge you to fix it. Make sure to ask for (and actually receive) wiring plans and connection schematics. the idea here is that you want a new company to be able to walk into your house and make changes without having to reinvent the wheel. No labels or documents means the new company has to waste time trying to figure out how your system is wired and programmed. If they have documents with this information they can skip that "discovery stage" and only spend time (and charge you) for what you called them for. Another important tip is to make sure that you get proper racks & wire management. A clean rack isn't just about looks...it can mean the difference between a 1 hour labor bill and a 3 hour labor bill. Some of the racks i see from other companies look like they will fall apart if the wind blows too hard. You touch one wire and others start to disconnect. What happens then is the service guy leaves with problem A solved and then 2 days later the client discovers problem B that was caused by a wire getting disconnected accidentally.

Example of bad vs good wire management. Which one would you like to work with?










*3. I can do it all with native apps.* This is a 100% false statement. A true statement might be "I can do everything i want to do with native apps". What you cant do with native apps is have things integrated. You cant have the sun shades drop when the interior temperature rises during the day. You cant automate multiple devices and systems via conditions or single button presses. If you dont care about this stuff and all you want to do is have full control of devices from one interface...then yeah...get a table/smart phone and go to town. Honestly there is no good argument for a control system like Control4 Crestron etc. Everyone has a different wish list. The good news is that we have smart phones and tablets and smart devices with apps. We didnt have this 10 years ago. Sonos is great. Nest is Great. And if you need a handheld remote for the media room get a Harmony. The latest Harmony remotes are awesome in my opinion. Easy configuration and the mobile app is generated automatically. You CAN buy all your Smart Home gear from amazon (for example) and set it all up yourself and have a system you will love and that more importantly...will impress the neighbors . 

But...

It's not the same as having a properly configured Crestron/Control4 etc system. Note:If you have a Control4 or Crestron system that only has basic functionality its usually a dealer issue not a product issue. Negotiate the bells and whistles up front before you sign the contract. Think about cool things you would like to do and ask them for advice about cool things you have never thought of.


----------



## eatenbacktolife

AidenL said:


> I didn’t get any recommendations no, I went with the local dealer.
> 
> ISP router is in modem mode, then a Draytek Router, TP Link switch, and all fixed IPs.
> 
> I’m on the C4 forums, but even there, seems some of my questions can’t be answered.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess growth can happen in a growing economy, in a niche market, as many, like me I must admit, may not have researched Control 4 thoroughly in advance, else we would have been aware of the potential issues.
> 
> I’m reading the Trustpilot reviews, seems to be a lot of dissatisfied customers there?


Your ISP gateway is bridged (so public IP is on your router) and your dealer is blaming that for local network and programming issues? Time to find someone new. Seems like a waste to dump all that C4 equipment when your dealer sounds incompetent.


----------



## mdsjedi44

39CentStamp said:


> These are the common complaints from people who are not happy with their "Smart Home" Home Automation/Distributed Audio Video systems:
> 
> *1. Costs too much.* I wont even bother responding to this one because a helicopter costs too much...so i don't have one. Someday if i have the money i might buy one...and when i do...i wont complain that it costs too much to buy...maintain etc.
> 
> 
> *2. Dealer holding me/my system hostage.* There are usually two types of these complaints. Type one is about the cost to change things and the other is about code/software "they wont give me the code".
> 
> "they want to charge me for every little change". Companies charge for what they do. $75-150 an hour is typical for all service companies and most companies charge you a trip fee. This usually falls under item 1 "Costs too much".
> 
> But...
> 
> I can totally understand anger and frustration and feeling like you are getting ripped off when products fail or the installation never really ends because your "AV guy" never finishes because expectations were never set so no one knows what the finish line is and then things start to fail and you dont know if it should be covered under warranty...or covered because it was never properly installed/programmed or if its a legit failure or change that you should be paying for. We all have stories...here is mine. I bought a remodeled 60 year old house. Basement toilet wouldn't drain. Plumber charged me $115 to walk into my basement bath and tell me to call a septic company to drain the tank. So i did that...problem wasn't solved and the tank "didn't need to be drained" (says the septic guy) but i did it anyway. $300 later i still have a basement bath toilet that wont drain. I call plumber #2 and pay him $800 to replace the ejector pump.
> 
> It's common for first time "Smart Home" customers to end up frustrated. Luckily there is more awareness these days because of forums like this and the fact that more people today have Control 4 Savant Crestron etc. The reality is that all of these control systems work and can be great. Some have limitations. Others have no limitations but often cost more to get the extra bells and whistles. The hard part isnt choosing Savant or Crestron or Control 4 (or whatever). The hard part is finding/choosing the right dealer/installer. This is really hard because even if Company A has great reviews today and lots of happy clients...it doesn't mean they will be around in 3 or 10 years or that their quality of work will be the same. This is a reality for every business. Your favorite pizza joint might start to suck next week because they changed the sauce.
> 
> It is what it is. All you can do is pick who you think the best is and make sure you cover yourself with things like copies of the programming code being stored at your house so its not all just gone when a company vanishes. F what the dealer tells you about the software and code. Negotiate this up front before they get a signed contract. If they wont budge call the next dealer on your list. No company should be able to keep you from making changes or "screwing it all up" (this is the ridiculous excuse most dealers give you when they wont give you software/code). Its your system and your right to change it..or break it. Understand though that if you do break it...the company will charge you to fix it. Make sure to ask for (and actually receive) wiring plans and connection schematics. the idea here is that you want a new company to be able to walk into your house and make changes without having to reinvent the wheel. No labels or documents means the new company has to waste time trying to figure out how your system is wired and programmed. If they have documents with this information they can skip that "discovery stage" and only spend time (and charge you) for what you called them for. Another important tip is to make sure that you get proper racks & wire management. A clean rack isn't just about looks...it can mean the difference between a 1 hour labor bill and a 3 hour labor bill. Some of the racks i see from other companies look like they will fall apart if the wind blows too hard. You touch one wire and others start to disconnect. What happens then is the service guy leaves with problem A solved and then 2 days later the client discovers problem B that was caused by a wire getting disconnected accidentally.
> 
> Example of bad vs good wire management. Which one would you like to work with?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *3. I can do it all with native apps.* This is a 100% false statement. A true statement might be "I can do everything i want to do with native apps". What you cant do with native apps is have things integrated. You cant have the sun shades drop when the interior temperature rises during the day. You cant automate multiple devices and systems via conditions or single button presses. If you dont care about this stuff and all you want to do is have full control of devices from one interface...then yeah...get a table/smart phone and go to town. Honestly there is no good argument for a control system like Control4 Crestron etc. Everyone has a different wish list. The good news is that we have smart phones and tablets and smart devices with apps. We didnt have this 10 years ago. Sonos is great. Nest is Great. And if you need a handheld remote for the media room get a Harmony. The latest Harmony remotes are awesome in my opinion. Easy configuration and the mobile app is generated automatically. You CAN buy all your Smart Home gear from amazon (for example) and set it all up yourself and have a system you will love and that more importantly...will impress the neighbors .
> 
> But...
> 
> It's not the same as having a properly configured Crestron/Control4 etc system. Note:If you have a Control4 or Crestron system that only has basic functionality its usually a dealer issue not a product issue. Negotiate the bells and whistles up front before you sign the contract. Think about cool things you would like to do and ask them for advice about cool things you have never thought of.


Great for you - it looks like you have had a positive experience. But don't dismiss the experiences that so many of us have had with our dealers and Control4. 

Like many others, I didn't do the research prior to allowing my dealer to install Control4. I was simply charmed by its features -- it didn't even cross my mind that I would need permission every single time I got a new device. Why would I? 

And what if, like in my case, your dealer is unresponsive? They don't pick up phones, return messages, check emails, or follow through on promises. In theory, adding a device (like an AppleTV, most recently) should be simple, but made far more complicated by unresponsive dealers. For the price we paid, we certainly deserve better. 

And every time I have Internet issues... that's an entirely different problem that Control4 has introduced. 

My advice? Stay away. Don't let dealers hold you hostage. I would have been much better off with Harmony, where at least I can control my own home theater.


----------



## weboperations

39CentStamp said:


> *3. I can do it all with native apps.* This is a 100% false statement. A true statement might be "I can do everything i want to do with native apps". What you cant do with native apps is have things integrated. You cant have the sun shades drop when the interior temperature rises during the day.


This can be done natively with $60 hubs from Best Buy, all without even diving into complicated programming.


----------



## ezlotogura

mdsjedi44 said:


> Great for you - it looks like you have had a positive experience. But don't dismiss the experiences that so many of us have had with our dealers and Control4.
> 
> Like many others, I didn't do the research prior to allowing my dealer to install Control4. I was simply charmed by its features -- it didn't even cross my mind that I would need permission every single time I got a new device. Why would I?
> 
> And what if, like in my case, your dealer is unresponsive? They don't pick up phones, return messages, check emails, or follow through on promises. In theory, adding a device (like an AppleTV, most recently) should be simple, but made far more complicated by unresponsive dealers. For the price we paid, we certainly deserve better.
> 
> And every time I have Internet issues... that's an entirely different problem that Control4 has introduced.
> 
> My advice? Stay away. Don't let dealers hold you hostage. I would have been much better off with Harmony, where at least I can control my own home theater.


So because you were an uniformed customer about the limitations of a system everyone should steer clear of a platform and go with your recommendation? I actually like hiring someone to do the work. I work 8-6pm daily, I travel for work, and it is nice that someone can handle the work for me. And with Composer Home Edition I can do 90% of the work on my own when I want, but when it is above my pay grade, or I am too busy, I can pay someone to do it. Do you know about Composer HE? Do you own a copy of the software?

Control4 has nothing to do with your internet connection - maybe your dealer set up your network incorrectly. Internet can be down but C4 will still buzz along because its locally set up. That is one of the perks of C4 over the IoT hubs.

If your dealer is not responsive, find a new one. If I call my mechanic and he doesnt return my call to make an appointment, or my dentist doesnt call me back to confirm an appointment, I go find a new one, I dont just sit with my car in the driveway not working or a decaying tooth hurting me. It is free to find/switch dealers, takes 2 seconds to do online in your customer.control4.com portal. C4Forums.com has an entire section dedicated to people who make a living remotely programming your system - and I'd be glad to give you a few recommendations if you want to help find one of these remote dealers. They can do it while you are at work, sleeping, or sitting up and working with them on say Teamviewer or something. You own your code with c4 so you can pick a new dealer and switch ASAP.


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## ezlotogura

weboperations said:


> This can be done natively with $60 hubs from Best Buy, all without even diving into complicated programming.


if you think a $60 hub gives you the same integration as Control4, Crestron, Savant, etc you are missing out on true home automation.

automation is not an app that can turn lights on or off, automation is also not setting my lights to go on at dusk and off at 11pm. those are just simple takes you can automate, but when people talk home automation that is not the same. in a given day I press like 4-5 buttons in my house, that is it. a wake up button, a good night button, a door lock button and a button to open/close my garage. that is basically it. everything else is just done for me. and that is just the start of it.


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## 39CentStamp

weboperations said:


> This can be done natively with $60 hubs from Best Buy, all without even diving into complicated programming.


Thanks for confirming my statement that "you cant do it all" with native apps. 

Does your $60 hub let you create a single UI page for a sophisticated home theater with video and audio settings as well as lighting and climate? 
via native apps?

I get it...and i stated it...the gap is closing and you can have good control of your home without a crestron/savant control system. After 20+ years in the industry i am telling you that you cannot (even closely) mimic what a control system like Crestron can do...with native ios/android apps.


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## 39CentStamp

mdsjedi44 said:


> Great for you - it looks like you have had a positive experience. But don't dismiss the experiences that so many of us have had with our dealers and Control4.


I am an installer and i work for a Crestron dealer. My post does exactly the opposite of dismiss your negative experience. I mentioned tips on what to do before signing a contract and the fact that even then its a crap shoot sometimes. I then told a story about how i had a simile experience with a local plumber. A new car i bought in 2015 needed a new engine after a month. Why would i think to ask for a good engine in a new car before buying it? Things happen and it sucks when they happen to us. 



> Like many others, I didn't do the research prior to allowing my dealer to install Control4. I was simply charmed by its features -- it didn't even cross my mind that I would need permission every single time I got a new device. Why would I?


I agree with you 100%. Why should it be your job to ask about stuff like that up front? The dealer should have clued you in on labor rates and important information like "who owns the code" (a hot button topic in our industry).



> And what if, like in my case, your dealer is unresponsive? They don't pick up phones, return messages, check emails, or follow through on promises. In theory, adding a device (like an AppleTV, most recently) should be simple, but made far more complicated by unresponsive dealers. For the price we paid, we certainly deserve better.


Some of these companies (in all industries) shouldn't be in business because they have no real plan for being around in a 10 years or even 1 year. This is why its important and very difficult sometimes to find the right company. 

You mentioned AppleTV as a seemingly simple upgrade. About a month ago i had a client who wanted to swap 2 AppleTV 3's with 2 AppleTV 4's. Sounds easy enough but like everything in life there are things outside of our control and.. Gen 4 has different IR codes and no optical audio output. So now i have to remove the optical audio cable that was converted to coaxial audio going into my audio switch. Then i have to use the audio output from the Crestron DM Video card to route audio to the audio switch. And then reprogram the system for the new audio path routing. Half hour of programming, truck roll and an hour on site implementing the change and testing. And this only because we actually had a video switch that had the ability to strip audio out of the hdmi signal. Without it we would have had a bunch of extra parts that may or may not have worked thanks to HDCP and HDMI.



> And every time I have Internet issues... that's an entirely different problem that Control4 has introduced.


I dont know what this is about. Is it really an internet issue or is it a wifi issue? What i mean is do you have any wired PCs in the home? When you have internet problems with other devices how are the wired devices holding up? You may have a network that is configured wrong or inadequate. Control systems require a beefier backbone. If you are living in a "normal" size (under 5000 sqft) it might be worth it to hire an IT company to diagnose and possibly replace your wifi system with EERO. Relatively inexpensive and rock solid.



> My advice? Stay away. Don't let dealers hold you hostage. I would have been much better off with Harmony, where at least I can control my own home theater.


My advice is that you dont have to stay away while simultaneously not letting dealers hold you hostage.


----------



## ezlotogura

39CentStamp said:


> My advice is that you dont have to stay away while simultaneously not letting dealers hold you hostage.


in C4 it is 100% clear, the owner of the house owns the code, not the installer/programmer. C4 sells software called Composer Home Edition. Its a $150 one time fee. It allows the home owner to _program_ 100% in the same manner a dealer can program. It will not let an end user add/remove new hardware from their project. So for that, you need a dealer. And you very nicely put why - sometimes it is not just swapping hardware but it messes up cabling, IR codes, etc. What may seam simple is not in a complex set up.

But just to be clear to the latest poster - you own your C4 code, you can take it with you to another dealer. the programming sits on your controller, and any dealer you give access to via your online portal can access that code and continue to work on your project. You are not hostage to anyone.


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## weboperations

ezlotogura said:


> weboperations said:
> 
> 
> 
> This can be done natively with $60 hubs from Best Buy, all without even diving into complicated programming.
> 
> 
> 
> if you think a $60 hub gives you the same integration as Control4, Crestron, Savant, etc you are missing out on true home automation.
> 
> automation is not an app that can turn lights on or off, automation is also not setting my lights to go on at dusk and off at 11pm. those are just simple takes you can automate, but when people talk home automation that is not the same. in a given day I press like 4-5 buttons in my house, that is it. a wake up button, a good night button, a door lock button and a button to open/close my garage. that is basically it. everything else is just done for me. and that is just the start of it.
Click to expand...

I was responding to the comment that control 4 was able to close window shades if the interior temp reached a certain threshold. I quoted exactly what I was responding to. 

That automation can easily be done with a consumer level hub.


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## weboperations

39CentStamp said:


> weboperations said:
> 
> 
> 
> This can be done natively with $60 hubs from Best Buy, all without even diving into complicated programming.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for confirming my statement that "you cant do it all" with native apps.
> 
> Does your $60 hub let you create a single UI page for a sophisticated home theater with video and audio settings as well as lighting and climate?
> via native apps?
> 
> I get it...and i stated it...the gap is closing and you can have good control of your home without a crestron/savant control system. After 20+ years in the industry i am telling you that you cannot (even closely) mimic what a control system like Crestron can do...with native ios/android apps.
Click to expand...

I quoted the part of your post where you gave an example of closing the window shades based on Interior temp. That is easily done with a Best Buy consumer level hub. 

I don't know what your definition of sophisticated is so I can't really respond to that part of your post.


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## 39CentStamp

weboperations said:


> I quoted the part of your post where you gave an example of closing the window shades based on Interior temp. That is easily done with a Best Buy consumer level hub.


That was just an example and i noticed you failed to quote the sentence that followed that one. "You cant automate multiple devices and systems via conditions or single button presses." Which $60 hub lets you do this on a single UI page in a single App? 



> I don't know what your definition of sophisticated is so I can't really respond to that part of your post.


Projector + Anamorphic Lens Fixed Height Screen, an AVR + AV sources, lighting shades and climate.

Or...

$1000 projector, $100 screen from amazon and an AVR and Cable box.

You press your "Watch Blu-ray" button on your remote/keypad/tablet/touchpanel whatever and the Blu-ray ON Macro launches and your UI page flips to the Blu-ray page. Your control system knows that you are in the Theater (vs other video zones in the home) so it tells your UI to show extended controls for things like aspect ratio and surround mode. You dont have to page flip to the AVR or launch the AVR app to adjust surround and you dont have to pull up your projector or anamorphic lens or screen app to make those adjustments. They can all be made on the same page.

No $60 or $600 hub at Best Buy allows you to create a single UI page to operate a home theater like that Do you need or want that? If no then you are good to go after a stop at Best Buy. If you do need or want that then you can spend a month at Best Buy looking through every product they own and you wont find what you are looking for unless you meet with the folks at Magnolia who tell you to get Control4.


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## ezlotogura

Another issue for the $60 hub that connects IoT services

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/13/samsung-smartthings-hub-down-north-america/

C4, Crestron, etc run on local controllers in your house. If you have power, it will work. You can get fancy and incorporate IFTTT Triggers into c4 so sure that would be down if the internet is down in your house, but regular automation tasks with your own hardware (most of a persons set up) will continue to function. You do not have to worry that your hue lights cannot talk to your Alexa because the internet is down, a hub service is down, etc.

I’ll keep saying the same thing, a $60 has its place. I have friends with them and they like it and it works. But to say its the same or better than a custom Crestron/C4/Savant system is not true. I drive a $40,000 car and I am happy, but my fellow sales staff at my firm drive $100,000 cars. I am happy with my $40k car but it is certainly missing some bells and whistles from the $100,000 cars. It is America, a free economy, just be an informed customer when you make your purchase.

Which is what brings me here - being an informed customer - I am only on here defending Control4 when someone gives false information that they do not own their code, they are a stuck with their dealer and cannot move, that the internet connection messes up their C4 install, they cannot do any programming, etc. These are falsehoods and should be corrected so those looking for accurate information get it. I cannot easily recommend at $2000 or $20,000 C4 install for someone without knowing their end game, appetite for level of DIY, budget, any special needs (special needs, elderly, religious) etc. I am not sure how people on here say “it is a waste do it my way” when you do not even know the poster. 

Sorry for the rant, I am just cleaning up some falsehoods and providing some facts and examples when people inquire they have some accurate statements of limitations, examples and the pluses/minuses to their potential decisions.


----------



## SMHarman

David Haddad said:


> George Carlin wisdom can be applied to many aspects of life.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWPCE2tTLZQ
> 
> So you see, you need to convince yourself that your 40K car is better than every car that costs less, but that anyone that spends more is wasting money (and probably an idiot for doing it). Most importantly, you need to do that without ever having actually owned or experienced the $100,000 car. And why would you ever need to? Your $40,000 car can do everything it can do. Anyhow who says otherwise has vested motives.


But he said. The $100k car is better, has more features.


----------



## SMHarman

David Haddad said:


> George Carlin wisdom can be applied to many aspects of life.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWPCE2tTLZQ
> 
> So you see, you need to convince yourself that your 40K car is better than every car that costs less, but that anyone that spends more is wasting money (and probably an idiot for doing it). Most importantly, you need to do that without ever having actually owned or experienced the $100,000 car. And why would you ever need to? Your $40,000 car can do everything it can do. Anyhow who says otherwise has vested motives.


But he said. The $100k car is better, has more features. 

Not trying to convince anyone just saying different use cases.


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## ezlotogura

Exactly. I didn’t say my 40k car had all the features of the 100k car. The 40k car suits me. I shopped around. I asked questions. I had a list of my needs and that car made the most sense for me. But I’m not saying a 100k car is crap or over priced. It has more features. It is faster. It has nicer trim. More safety options. Better warranty. But it wasn’t for me. A custom solution is not built for the masses. But it’s not crap, it’s not broken and the flaws pointed out are just misinformed comments. 

My friends Lamborghini is faster 0-60 than my Hyundai Santa Fe. If I said the opposite I would hope someone would correct me. So when someone makes an incorrect statement I corrected it. I don’t believe I told anyone how to spend their money only provided an option, solution or correction

And yes that is a 200k+ car I reference above but he is my friend. My co workers had the 100k cars in my original comment


----------



## weboperations

39CentStamp said:


> weboperations said:
> 
> 
> 
> I quoted the part of your post where you gave an example of closing the window shades based on Interior temp. That is easily done with a Best Buy consumer level hub.
> 
> 
> 
> That was just an example and i noticed you failed to quote the sentence that followed that one. "You cant automate multiple devices and systems via conditions or single button presses." Which $60 hub lets you do this on a single UI page in a single App?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what your definition of sophisticated is so I can't really respond to that part of your post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Projector + Anamorphic Lens Fixed Height Screen, an AVR + AV sources, lighting shades and climate.
> 
> Or...
> 
> $1000 projector, $100 screen from amazon and an AVR and Cable box.
> 
> You press your "Watch Blu-ray" button on your remote/keypad/tablet/touchpanel whatever and the Blu-ray ON Macro launches and your UI page flips to the Blu-ray page. Your control system knows that you are in the Theater (vs other video zones in the home) so it tells your UI to show extended controls for things like aspect ratio and surround mode. You dont have to page flip to the AVR or launch the AVR app to adjust surround and you dont have to pull up your projector or anamorphic lens or screen app to make those adjustments. They can all be made on the same page.
> 
> No $60 or $600 hub at Best Buy allows you to create a single UI page to operate a home theater like that Do you need or want that? If no then you are good to go after a stop at Best Buy. If you do need or want that then you can spend a month at Best Buy looking through every product they own and you wont find what you are looking for unless you meet with the folks at Magnolia who tell you to get Control4.
Click to expand...

Agree to disagree. But if you are just talking about triggering a relay to move the lens, triggering another relay to move your masking system, turning on your AVR and setting all inputs, then dimming the lights... and closing the shades. This could all be done with a $60 hub easily. 

I feel like we have a case on these forums where you have "professionals" which program/install systems like Crestron and C4... and they are so balls deep in that world, that they don't really have enough time in the day to learn the power of some of these newer hubs.

Most of what you are describing can be done with the cheaper systems. Very little that I've seen posted in this thread cannot be done with the same amount of work.


----------



## smoothtlk

weboperations, Several of us on this thread have quite a bit of understanding of "hubs" and what they can / cannot do. We (Allonis and very likely Dean / CQC) have developed integration hardware drivers to use a "hub" as a wireless gateway to the actual device (the "Z-Wave" device). The reason we do this is to replace the limited capability of integration and rules, and UI customization capability that the simple "hubs" provide.
I am not sure how familiar you are with some of the non "hub" systems that are being discussed here.

Is there a new forum / repository for device drivers for Smartthings hub to control, for example, a Russound MCA-88 WHA processor? Or a Lumigen AV processor, Or a monoprice AV matrix? Or a Denon receiver, Or a Sony projector?

What device is used to support RS232 devices which dominate the higher end equipment space (soon IP will dominate). Is there a generic serial driver compatible with Smarthings hub now?

I am NOT talking about a software developer hand writing a driver for a piece of hardware. That can take months of someone's time for ONE well equipped theater, especially if it has higher end components that have few customers to spread the knowledge / share the code. For example, how many customers using a Lumigen have written the device driver for it for Smarthings hub? And, have they shared it? And, has it been tested? And is it complete functionality? Do they charge for it? Do they provide support? How long will they support it for?

If I were to buy a Smarthings hub, how would I create a custom UI for it if I am not a software developer? You mention that Smarthings supports Groovy development language. That's great. But that certainly requires one to be a full boat software developer to write code for it. That's like saying, hey I have a CPU, and I know how to write C#, that then says I have the most powerful automation system capability there is. Of course that is both true and completely false in the real world. Add about 20 years of development time by an expert and will be close to today's capability. But we will be another 20 years ahead of that by the time one gets there.

This is kind of comparing a Triumph GT-6 to a Buggati Veyron. Both get you from point A to point B. Major difference on how. I don't think you are candidly discussing the quality differences. Possibly you don't have that background - which is understandable. Very few actually do, especially across the multiple products being discussed. I bet with enough time, money, and expertise, that Triumph can beat the Veyron in 20 years of modifications. Probably wouldn't look much like a Triumph then.


----------



## 39CentStamp

weboperations said:


> Agree to disagree. But if you are just talking about triggering a relay to move the lens, triggering another relay to move your masking system, turning on your AVR and setting all inputs, then dimming the lights... and closing the shades. This could all be done with a $60 hub easily.


Right...now how do you get this functionality on one UI along with all other aspects of your control/entertainment system?



> I feel like we have a case on these forums where you have "professionals" which program/install systems like Crestron and C4... and they are so balls deep in that world, that they don't really have enough time in the day to learn the power of some of these newer hubs.


Or it could be that those balls deep into $60 hubs are never made aware of what a Crestron/Control4/Charmed Quark etc control system can offer. To be clear...as stated in my posts in this thread...everyone doesn't need or want every feature but that isn't the issue here. The issue is that claims like "i can do all that with a $60 hub" are false.



> Most of what you are describing can be done with the cheaper systems. Very little that I've seen posted in this thread cannot be done with the same amount of work.



So which is it? Most of? Or All of? This is where we are "agreeing to disagree"? I don't know how else to explain things. Part of it is because i live Crestron (and countless other control system products for over 20 years) every day and i expect things to be a certain way because thats how they are with the systems i work with. Crestron is a development platform that lets you control anything...and bring it all into a single user interface. The cost vs value might not work for everyone.

A few screenshots to illustrate what i mean by single UI to control and monitor everything.

Typical Blu-ray iPad UI. Bottom navigation bar has TV/Music (all audio video source macro start up buttons), Control (all subsystem automation devices), Home (home status page) on the left. In the center is the room selection button (where you can choose any room in the house to control it) and on the right is volume control and AV off for the selected room you are in. This navigation bar never changes so you can always get back to where you were. Top bar has the currently selected page name in the center. When AV sources are selected the Share button appears so that you can share a single source with all rooms. The Adjust button appears in a media room or theater or any zone that might have complicated/additional controls.










This is the full screen video window. This feature usually exists on 15" and up panels but we put it on iPads so when you are roaming around the house away from the TV you can see a video source on the iPad. Also used for CCTV cameras.










This page contains commands for devices in a home theater. Anything you might want to have manual control over.










This popup page lets you share the currently selected source with other rooms.










This is a feature we use for monitoring other residences/businesses/boats whatever. Usually made up of basic commands but it can be whatever you want. You could also have full control of another site by adding it to the Rooms Selection list but usually the monitor page is all you need.










These UI pages were created from scratch by yours truly. This is how i like to control things. Dont like it? You can change any of it and im not just talking about the background or button colors. Don't like toggle light buttons...need and ON and OFF? You can do it. You can do sliders for the lights. You can do a floorplan page for the lights. You can do a photo of the room with the light fixtures and press the fixture to turn the light on in the room. You can change the volume slider to vol up and down buttons. You can change the Share page functionality to work anyway you can dream up.

Do you need or want these features? You cant get them with any $60 or $600 hub picked up at best buy.


----------



## weboperations

39CentStamp said:


> Right...now how do you get this functionality on one UI along with all other aspects of your control/entertainment system?
> 
> 
> 
> Or it could be that those balls deep into $60 hubs are never made aware of what a Crestron/Control4/Charmed Quark etc control system can offer. To be clear...as stated in my posts in this thread...everyone doesn't need or want every feature but that isn't the issue here. The issue is that claims like "i can do all that with a $60 hub" are false.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So which is it? Most of? Or All of? This is where we are "agreeing to disagree"? I don't know how else to explain things. Part of it is because i live Crestron (and countless other control system products for over 20 years) every day and i expect things to be a certain way because thats how they are with the systems i work with. Crestron is a development platform that lets you control anything...and bring it all into a single user interface. The cost vs value might not work for everyone.
> 
> A few screenshots to illustrate what i mean by single UI to control and monitor everything.
> 
> Typical Blu-ray iPad UI. Bottom navigation bar has TV/Music (all audio video source macro start up buttons), Control (all subsystem automation devices), Home (home status page) on the left. In the center is the room selection button (where you can choose any room in the house to control it) and on the right is volume control and AV off for the selected room you are in. This navigation bar never changes so you can always get back to where you were. Top bar has the currently selected page name in the center. When AV sources are selected the Share button appears so that you can share a single source with all rooms. The Adjust button appears in a media room or theater or any zone that might have complicated/additional controls.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the full screen video window. This feature usually exists on 15" and up panels but we put it on iPads so when you are roaming around the house away from the TV you can see a video source on the iPad. Also used for CCTV cameras.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> This page contains commands for devices in a home theater. Anything you might want to have manual control over.
> 
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> 
> 
> This popup page lets you share the currently selected source with other rooms.
> 
> 
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> 
> This is a feature we use for monitoring other residences/businesses/boats whatever. Usually made up of basic commands but it can be whatever you want. You could also have full control of another site by adding it to the Rooms Selection list but usually the monitor page is all you need.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These UI pages were created from scratch by yours truly. This is how i like to control things. Dont like it? You can change any of it and im not just talking about the background or button colors. Don't like toggle light buttons...need and ON and OFF? You can do it. You can do sliders for the lights. You can do a floorplan page for the lights. You can do a photo of the room with the light fixtures and press the fixture to turn the light on in the room. You can change the volume slider to vol up and down buttons. You can change the Share page functionality to work anyway you can dream up.
> 
> Do you need or want these features? You cant get them with any $60 or $600 hub picked up at best buy.


I was simply replying to your own proposed scenario of "Projector + Anamorphic Lens Fixed Height Screen, an AVR + AV sources, lighting shades and climate". You created that scenario as an example of what couldn't be done with a hub, I was just arguing that it can.

Many of the things in your screenshots, I'm currently doing in smartthings, using smartapps loaded into the IDE.


----------



## 39CentStamp

weboperations said:


> I was simply replying to your own proposed scenario of "Projector + Anamorphic Lens Fixed Height Screen, an AVR + AV sources, lighting shades and climate". You created that scenario as an example of what couldn't be done with a hub, I was just arguing that it can.
> 
> Many of the things in your screenshots, I'm currently doing in smartthings, using smartapps loaded into the IDE.


Maybe my post was unclear. I didn't spend enough time elaborating. Thats why i followed up with screenshots to further illustrate the differences between native apps and big box hubs.

Typical comments in threads like this is "you can do everything that product x can do for much less than crestron/control4 etc". The much less solution offered is always native apps and inexpensive control hubs. That "everything" statement is false. What might be true is that a particular hub paired with apps can give you "all of the control YOU want/need" but it will never offer complete customization and the ability to control everything from a single UI.


----------



## Spectah

ezlotogura said:


> in a given day I press like 4-5 buttons in my house, that is it. a wake up button, a good night button, a door lock button and a button to open/close my garage. that is basically it. everything else is just done for me. and that is just the start of it.


Buy a SmartThings hub. 5 min to program the same thing. Full flexibility, integrated, automated, and inexpensive!


----------



## ezlotogura

Spectah said:


> Buy a SmartThings hub. 5 min to program the same thing. Full flexibility, integrated, automated, and inexpensive!


I guess you have not read the entire thread. Smartthings cannot help with my centralized audio and video distribution with lip sync delay, sharing 9-10 digital and analog sources to 10 rooms and the same with video content all in sync. I also did not want a mostly wireless, mostly IoT device. I wanted I wanted something local with mostly hardwired products on a LAN. I wanted something that out of the box had drivers for 10,000's of devices via IP, IR or Serial, not a community to ask and wait for someone to conjure up a solution. I wanted a nicer lighting kit than Leviton because my wife did not like the ascetics of Leviton (or even Lutron) and the C4 lighting has way more functionality (when paired with a c4 installation). I wanted a tactile handheld wand remote for TV viewing since using an app on my phone I think is stupid for watching TV and back in 2013 there was nothing for Smart things on the market - maybe Harmony works but I had those plastic POS prior and wasnt a big fan - they froze a lot and I wanted serial/IP control of TV and AVRs to remove the unsightly IR buds needed for Harmony. I also wanted dedicated touch screens in walls that were 100% on and 100% powered, not touch to wake, touch to open a app, wait for the app to connect, then do something. And last but not least, I actually like a dealer model. I work 50-60 hours a week and travel for business. In my down time though I enjoy electronics (and work in IT) my time is important. So with Composer HE I can do some programming on my time, but when I need help, I can make a call and know I'll get support. I am not at the mercy of an open source platform with a forum waiting on help, nor am I dealing with an open source platform and when the OS gets upgraded older projects may start to wither away and not work. C4 does a lot of rigorous QA work and with their driver partners and 95% of functionality remains with OS upgrades and they support their C4 hardware for almost 10 years which in IT and electronics is very rare - who is still rocking a 10 year old iPhone? At the time in 2013 and I still believe today many of these features are missing from a $100 hub. And guess what, that is fine, because you may not need a single thing I listed and your $100 investment is wise. But for my needs, I needed these things so I'd be throwing away $100 on a smartthings hub that I would not be using to my potential.

If a $100 hub could fit all use cases, there would be no $50 or $500 or $5000 solutions with growing customer bases. What works for you, does not work for me. Again I'll liken it to a car, why do they sell $15,000, $30,000, $60,000 , $90,000 and $150,000+ cars? Aren't they all four wheel devices that get you from point A to B with a radio, seatbelts and heating and air conditioning? Why would someone buy a Mercedes when they can buy a Kia? Or if you want a sports car why spend $200,000+ on Lamborghini when you can buy Ford Mustang?


----------



## blazar

i added a lutron bridge / lutron connect app / homeworks QS controller to my lutron system. Now i can set the sunrise/sunset timings for open and closing to keep sun out during the evening sun. I can also directly connect shades to alexa.

I dont have any shades switches and i use alexa via lutron direct for shade open/close. i no longer have to open my phone, mess with control4 at all or do anything else special.

shades are now bulletproof and work well with alexa voice routines.


In the meantime, i had two more of my control4 light switches die and become unresponsive... no idea what the hell. I have spent more time messing with light switch automation than actually time spent turning on and off lights manually. It's obnoxious.

With my homeworks QS, i can technically add lutron switches instead but i am tired of spending money to switch over. I do like how control4 can flash my media room lights when someone rings the doorbell. I do like a few commands that control4 can help with my AVR.


If i can get a thermostat system that can handle my heated floor activation and de-activation based on outdoor temperature lockouts, i can have it fully autonomous with minor up/down on temp via alexa. Im not quite ready to move these off control4 at this moment but i suspect the automation is coming soon via things like ecobee and IFTTT perhaps.

a lutron light system + alexa will take care of over 95% of what most people care about. For a current home design, I would would do all LED and do the entire room on the same lightswitch so that automation would be dramatically easier with the expectation that you use alexa or similar instead of a bunch of 2-way and 3-way switches.

I am most definitely moving to an "autonomous" setup where most things do NOT need integration and mostly work touch free year round with the occasional exception which I can open an app for or speak with alexa.


----------



## funky54

You have a smart home. You are on Vacation. Your daughter calls and says, “Hey our house has mold and a contractor wants us out for a few days... Can we stay at your place?” 

Here are two versions of what happens next:

*Crestron, Control4, Savant...*

“.... Ok honey. Do you still have the door code?” She reply’s, “sure”

After work she arrives and enters her door code. 
The door unlocks
The security system disarms
The lighting path from her entrance point comes on and lights up all the way to the spare room she stays in from time to time.
You receive a push notification email or text stating that she has arrived safe.
The shades around the pool raise because it’s morning
The Ac came on from vacation mode (or it could have been turned on prior by you remotely)
The recirculating water pump is now active

While there later in the day, she decides to watch a movie. She presses “Movie Time” 
The Shades all close around the family room 
The lights turn off leaving the sconces at 5%.
The Projector screen comes down from the ceiling
The projector fires up
The 5.2.4 Atmos surround turns on and whole house audio shuts off in the Family room
The screen is populated with available options such as movies, streaming services, cable...

When she’s done watching the movie she presses “Movie Time” and the reverse happens.

The next morning she wakes because the shades very slowly raised a bit and the lights came on gradually (because she likes it that way)

She decides to go for a swim. She presses “Pool Party” 
The shades around the pool all go up, the bug screens in the lanai all raise
The pool fountain turns on
If its night the pool lights come on and change color
The music comes on 

She finishes her swim, and the reverse all happens.

She leaves the next morning and goes out of the house and presses her lock code again
The lights all go off
The TV’s go off
The shades go down
The climate goes back to vacation mode
The security system goes back on
You receive a push notification saying she has left.


*Alexa, Google Home....*
“Oh Honey, Do you still have your key?” She reply’s...”gosh No..” 

Maybe you can shout really loud at Alexa from the airport... Oh wait Alexa still cant operate that lock... Ok when the plane lands maybe you can login to an app and open that lock.

Ok... shoo. The door is open. She’s carring her luggage and the lights don’t come on... Maybe if she yells really loud to Alexa... maybe she knows the commands to turn on the lights she wants?? But wait!!! Crap! What’s that annoying sound?

OH Crap its the alarm.. She doesnt know or remember the code... oh wait she stored it in her iPhone in notes.. maybe she can get to it in time before its too late... nope the police cant get a hold of you because your in the air on your plane.

So now the cops are with your daughter and are unshure... I mean the name is the same on her license???

Ok you land and she’s detained for 3 hours. You get the call.. Ok, she’s tired and ready to just go to bed.

She arrives... crap the lock again. She calls you.. again (on your vacation) and you unlock the door with your handy app.
Ok..ok she’s there. She stayed on the phone with you to make sure she got in... (you missed your tour, but hey its your daughter)

She stumbles around in the dark and turns on some lights.. Why is it so hot... crap the AC is off... She says “crap, how do I work this thingy?” She calls... “Dad, its really hot.” Ok honey here’s what you do.. and we all know your 20 year old daughter is just great with controlling T-stats... so explain that.

She’d like to take a shower... but why is the water so cold?

The next morning she decides to go for a swim. She doesn’t know how to turn on the music... “Wait” she says, “I got this one” “Alexa Play Lady Ga Ga Radio station” Ok cool it came on. She can here it. Now she goes out side to the pool.... Crap the music isn’t out here. “I Know... I’ll use an extension chord and bring the Alexa Echo thingy out here” BY THE POOL...

Wait... its just nonsense this little Echo sounds like crap out here. The fountain didn’t come on and the pool is cold....

She decides to just watch TV...

“Which remote is it? How do I turn on the sound thingy?” “Why is it so light in here?” “Maybe if I tug on these shades?”
“How do I watch a movie?” She calls (while your on vacation) “Daddy, How do I make the screen go down?” Your reply...”Honey look for the silver remote with the smaller buttons... she’s looks at the four remotes... she’s processing.. Wait.. “Alexa How do I lower the screen and turn on the projector.. Alexa’s Reply.. “I don’t have that information, Its 2:00 and the weather is 78 degrees” We’ll that was not helpful.... So you walk her through lowering the screen... 30 minutes later the projector is on with the screen down.. your both frustrated... She says “Daddy I cant see the Screen, its like pale” You reply, “yeah you need to lower the shades” you reply “Alexa can do that.” “Oh, ok... Alexa close the shades” nothing happens.... “Dad why aren’t they closing?” ...” I dont know honey, I’ll have to look at that when I’m home”

Ok so she’s still on the phone with you (while your on vacation..) You walk her through on the phone (while on vacation) To just watch TV ... first you walk her through how to get the screen back up and the projector back up.

She gets the TV on. 

She decides to leave, not having a key, she locks herself out again... She calls.... 

She’s frustrated, so when she leaves, she’s scared to even arm the security system so she leaves that off...

I could keep going but its just too brutal.

Google, Amazon, Apple all have Crestron at their headquarters operating their systems reliably.. I use Alexa to tell me what time it is when I’m on the can in the bathroom.


----------



## weboperations

Your example is a bit ridiculous. The Echo does voice control better than anything currently available (google home and Apple HomePod are a very distant competitor) It's not designed to do all the things you listed. 

As far as the automation functions you listed. There is not one thing you listed that couldn't be done with consumer automation hubs. SmartThings for example can do every single thing you listed. 

If you don't think it can, I can explain exactly how. Most of the stuff doesn't even require anything custom, but using all built in functionality.


----------



## funky54

weboperations said:


> Your example is a bit ridiculous. The Echo does voice control better than anything currently available (google home and Apple HomePod are a very distant competitor) It's not designed to do all the things you listed.
> 
> As far as the automation functions you listed. There is not one thing you listed that couldn't be done with consumer automation hubs. SmartThings for example can do every single thing you listed.
> 
> If you don't think it can, I can explain exactly how. Most of the stuff doesn't even require anything custom, but using all built in functionality.


No offense, but your statement is absolutely false. The cheap hubs your speaking of absolutely cannot do what automation systems can. There is nothing ridiculous about what I used as an example between consumer remote control and real automation. Alexa is a fun toy. It’s a novelty. It is fun to add to automated systems. When working with my hands it’s great to say “Alexa, play Van Halen on Spotify” it’s great when holding tools to say “Alexa, skip song...” but to use it how automation is used is what’s ridiculous. 

I have no doubt you have done creative, clever things with the products you describe. Those things might really make you happy. It may provide a measure of convenience. But I would suggest you only think it’s the same because you’ve not experienced real automation done right.

SmatThings at minimum does have zig bee... that’s at least a start toward better, more reliable, safer, secured communication, but 3/4 the products you want to automate are either going to be zwave or WiFi. That’s not secure, safe or reliable... there goes hue lights, your garage door opener and “likely” your lock set. Again, it’s a toy. High maintence and poor at security. Limited, with limited partnerships that reside on zigbee. If your a tech person who “wants” to play around and constantly tweak then SmartTings is great... but don’t move into a 7000’ house. Can’t wait to see what kinda reliable “network” you’d use for that and 3/4 of your communication relying on WiFi. By the way as more and more are streaming 4k to their tv’s.. what’s that doing to bandwidth? And if its hardwired, how are you controlling them with SmartThings? Are you partitioning and using several? Hmm... is it cheaper at this point? 

It’s ok to experiment and have fun. But to try and educate others on a site so they spend their money wisely, at least let them understand the huge limitations and security risks involved.

The roof on a 10,000’ house costs more than the roof on a 1800’ house. So will the automation.


----------



## weboperations

funky54 said:


> weboperations said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your example is a bit ridiculous. The Echo does voice control better than anything currently available (google home and Apple HomePod are a very distant competitor) It's not designed to do all the things you listed.
> 
> As far as the automation functions you listed. There is not one thing you listed that couldn't be done with consumer automation hubs. SmartThings for example can do every single thing you listed.
> 
> If you don't think it can, I can explain exactly how. Most of the stuff doesn't even require anything custom, but using all built in functionality.
> 
> 
> 
> No offense, but your statement is absolutely false. The cheap hubs your speaking of absolutely cannot do what automation systems can. There is nothing ridiculous about what I used as an example between consumer remote control and real automation. Alexa is a fun toy. It’s a novelty. It is fun to add to automated systems. When working with my hands it’s great to say “Alexa, play Van Halen on Spotify” it’s great when holding tools to say “Alexa, skip song...” but to use it how automation is used is what’s ridiculous.
> 
> I have no doubt you have done creative, clever things with the products you describe. Those things might really make you happy. It may provide a measure of convenience. But I would suggest you only think it’s the same because you’ve not experienced real automation done right.
> 
> SmatThings at minimum does have zig bee... that’s at least a start toward better, more reliable, safer, secured communication, but 3/4 the products you want to automate are either going to be zwave or WiFi. That’s not secure, safe or reliable... there goes hue lights, your garage door opener and “likely” your lock set. Again, it’s a toy. High maintence and poor at security. Limited, with limited partnerships that reside on zigbee. If your a tech person who “wants” to play around and constantly tweak then SmartTings is great... but don’t move into a 7000’ house. Can’t wait to see what kinda reliable “network” you’d use for that and 3/4 of your communication relying on WiFi. By the way as more and more are streaming 4k to their tv’s.. what’s that doing to bandwidth? And if its hardwired, how are you controlling them with SmartThings? Are you partitioning and using several? Hmm... is it cheaper at this point?
> 
> It’s ok to experiment and have fun. But to try and educate others on a site so they spend their money wisely, at least let them understand the huge limitations and security risks involved.
> 
> The roof on a 10,000’ house costs more than the roof on a 1800’ house. So will the automation.
Click to expand...

I specifically said the things you listed in your post, a consumer hub can do. I never said it can do everything. 

You rattled off all these things in your example... and all of those things can be done with a cheaper device.... even with the automation scenarios you suggested. 

Then with your reply, you tacked on additional things which were not in your first post, as a way to disprove what I said. 

There would be the same amount of "tweaking" with SmartThings as there would be with control4. 

You act as if the pool lights just magically go on... the pool fountain just magically goes on. Everything is utopian with control4. Cmon you are telling me there are no relays... controllers, some kind of interface that you have to setup and configure.... oh I'm sorry pay someone to go setup and configure. 

Those same controllers, relays, switches, motors etc etc would require the same setup in SmartThings. Although at least you can do it yourself. 

I can literally take any of your scenarios... your pool party scenario, your movie scenario, etc. and easily map it out how you could do it without those expensive automation systems. With 99% reliability.


----------



## funky54

weboperations said:


> I specifically said the things you listed in your post, a consumer hub can do. I never said it can do everything.
> 
> You rattled off all these things in your example... and all of those things can be done with a cheaper device.... even with the automation scenarios you suggested.
> 
> Then with your reply, you tacked on additional things which were not in your first post, as a way to disprove what I said.
> 
> There would be the same amount of "tweaking" with SmartThings as there would be with control4.
> 
> You act as if the pool lights just magically go on... the pool fountain just magically goes on. Everything is utopian with control4. Cmon you are telling me there are no relays... controllers, some kind of interface that you have to setup and configure.... oh I'm sorry pay someone to go setup and configure.
> 
> Those same controllers, relays, switches, motors etc etc would require the same setup in SmartThings. Although at least you can do it yourself.
> 
> I can literally take any of your scenarios... your pool party scenario, your movie scenario, etc. and easily map it out how you could do it without those expensive automation systems. With 99% reliability.


Cool. I’ll call the Pentagon and let them know the calloso mistake they made having Crestron there. They can rip that right out and go to Best Buy. I can only imagine the nut jobs driving by to unlock their zwave door locks.


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## weboperations

Hah. Funny.


----------



## eatenbacktolife

There's nothing esoteric about above scenario. It could easily be done with a $300 ISY and $100 iRule. I've never touched a SmartThings before, but it appears to have an ethernet port, a large community and an open api, albeit through the "cloud"? I would never sell it or use it, but if it can send data over ethernet and parse the responses is probably quite capable.


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## weboperations

That was my point.... that the scenarios he presented could be done with consumer level hubs. 

Then he mentioned the Pentagon... which had nothing to do with his scenarios.... and I gave up trying.


----------



## smoothtlk

All you need is a bag of semi conductors, a soldering gun and a programming for dummies book.

No problem


----------



## ezlotogura

Pentagon may be over the top. But you see no benefit of cloud v local? I have the IFTTT driver for c4 and a few other “cloud” drivers. Anytime I need to use a cloud source there is a delay. Within C4 if I keep it local things happen instantly. There are security concerns too about hosting access to your house in the cloud. Is someone going to hack your house I don’t know and odds are low. But odds are still lower when your controller is local and you have a secure network. Lots of big companies have had data breaches. Could cloud IoT be too far behind?


----------



## funky54

ezlotogura said:


> Pentagon may be over the top. But you see no benefit of cloud v local? I have the IFTTT driver for c4 and a few other “cloud” drivers. Anytime I need to use a cloud source there is a delay. Within C4 if I keep it local things happen instantly. There are security concerns too about hosting access to your house in the cloud. Is someone going to hack your house I don’t know and odds are low. But odds are still lower when your controller is local and you have a secure network. Lots of big companies have had data breaches. Could cloud IoT be too far behind?


The “Pentegone” is real. Most all us military facilities use Crestron. My point was that it was that real automation solutions are safer because they are local. Even if the cloud is used for some storage while populating, manipulating or such, the function is not residing on the cloud. Z-wave Door Locks and garage doors have been hacked. Sometimes it’s some geek wanting to see if he can, but it could also be someone with home invasion or theft in mind. That’s the security side.. what about speed, latency... 

There are huge differences between these products. Promoting these consumer grade solutions should come with some responsibility. Don’t just say “we can do all that” without telling the truth of how and the limitations involved.


----------



## ezlotogura

funky54 said:


> ezlotogura said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pentagon may be over the top. But you see no benefit of cloud v local? I have the IFTTT driver for c4 and a few other “cloud” drivers. Anytime I need to use a cloud source there is a delay. Within C4 if I keep it local things happen instantly. There are security concerns too about hosting access to your house in the cloud. Is someone going to hack your house I don’t know and odds are low. But odds are still lower when your controller is local and you have a secure network. Lots of big companies have had data breaches. Could cloud IoT be too far behind?
> 
> 
> 
> The “Pentegone” is real. Most all us military facilities use Crestron. My point was that it was that real automation solutions are safer because they are local. Even if the cloud is used for some storage while populating, manipulating or such, the function is not residing on the cloud. Z-wave Door Locks and garage doors have been hacked. Sometimes it’s some geek wanting to see if he can, but it could also be someone with home invasion or theft in mind. That’s the security side.. what about speed, latency...
> 
> There are huge differences between these products. Promoting these consumer grade solutions should come with some responsibility. Don’t just say “we can do all that” without telling the truth of how and the limitations involved.
Click to expand...

If you read my last posts and other posts I agree with you. I think your example may not ring true to this forum since 0.0001% have experience with DoD security standards. 

But I do agree it’s a matter of time before IoT devices are easily hacked. I wouldn’t want my security devices stored out there. Slower response and not as secure.


----------



## weboperations

funky54 said:


> ezlotogura said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pentagon may be over the top. But you see no benefit of cloud v local? I have the IFTTT driver for c4 and a few other “cloud” drivers. Anytime I need to use a cloud source there is a delay. Within C4 if I keep it local things happen instantly. There are security concerns too about hosting access to your house in the cloud. Is someone going to hack your house I don’t know and odds are low. But odds are still lower when your controller is local and you have a secure network. Lots of big companies have had data breaches. Could cloud IoT be too far behind?
> 
> 
> 
> The “Pentegone” is real. Most all us military facilities use Crestron. My point was that it was that real automation solutions are safer because they are local. Even if the cloud is used for some storage while populating, manipulating or such, the function is not residing on the cloud. Z-wave Door Locks and garage doors have been hacked. Sometimes it’s some geek wanting to see if he can, but it could also be someone with home invasion or theft in mind. That’s the security side.. what about speed, latency...
> 
> There are huge differences between these products. Promoting these consumer grade solutions should come with some responsibility. Don’t just say “we can do all that” without telling the truth of how and the limitations involved.
Click to expand...

I was simply responding to your post. 

Crestron has been owned multiple times as well. 

http://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerabi...&sha=267c51d87e997fd5faa8abad722323c3c565dcd8


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## eatenbacktolife

Is _encrypted_ Zwave broken and I missed it? Nobody should be doing access control on non encrypted Zwave devices. It's user error if some dork can "hack" a device that has no security on it, or the encryption wasn't enabled.

I'm not going to blame Crestron if I can remove the ethernet from one of their devices in a public space and connect to someone's corporate network, because they failed to segregate networks or use any port security. 

I wouldn't use a cloud based hub, I could see latency being an issue and I wouldn't trust Samsung or any other giant company with access control to my property. Not that I think they would use it, but abysmal security practices at these companies could expose tons of user data or who knows what else.


----------



## NoWake200

Aslan said:


> We have C4 and that has been a sore point with us. I don't need a tech to come out when I buy a printer, I simply tell my MacBook about it and start using it. Actually, I don't even have to do that anymore, it tells me it sees a new device and would I like to use it.
> 
> I've purchased Hue and LIFX lamps and it takes me but a few seconds to tell Alexa and Siri about them and I've got full control—no tech necessary. If I want C4 to control them then that's another story. A complicated, expensive and time consuming story.
> 
> We got a demo blackout shade and again it took just a couple of minutes to have Alexa telling it to go up, down or to a preset—without a tech. Even once there's a driver I'm told that C4 will require a tech.
> 
> I'd guess that very soon Alexa and Siri will auto-recognize TV's, DVR's, security panels, surveillance cameras, weather stations, clothes dryers, thermostats, and all manor or things.


I have to agree Aslan, 90% of our home is HUE and I thought it'd be great to use Control4 to control everything. The process for the tech was beyond cumbersome and it cost me a ton of money, and in the long run we asked to have all the programming removed. 

We wanted our Carrier Cor Thermostat to connect to Control4, and guess what, can not do it we were told. No driver. 

Now we have a TV 'on' issue, it randomly selects "input 3" which requires me to dig out my TV remote in order to correct if I do not want to re-power everything.

Also just added a new 4K DVD player that isn't talking to Control4 and sure enough the last Control4 Authorized Service Provided hasn't returned any calls. And just today Sonos made me reset my password and now I cannot stream Pandora or my library. 

Knowing what I know today, I would have saved a ton of money and just figured out a basic and simple system for my wife and I to use. Heck, Hue, Carrier, LiftMaster MyIQ and our LifeShield Alarm are all being controlled from our iPhones and NOT Control4. Our iPhone is doing a better job than our expensive Control4 system. 

Control4 is a great system for a very large home, mansion, that have owners that just pick up the phone and call "their people" to fix the problem, most likely have their credit card on file and never know or even care how much it costs. Working schmucks like me don't like to throw money around, and actually enjoy working on electronic, cars, boats and household issues. If that's you, then I'd suggest not getting a Control4 system.


----------



## NoWake200

ezlotogura said:


> I'll send you a PM


Hello ezlotogura, can you please PM me a recommendation for the Control4 techs that work remotely? I am not having much luck with the so-called dealers in my area of Florida. 

Thank you.


----------



## ezlotogura

NoWake200 said:


> Hello ezlotogura, can you please PM me a recommendation for the Control4 techs that work remotely? I am not having much luck with the so-called dealers in my area of Florida.
> 
> Thank you.


replied


----------



## NoWake200

ezlotogura said:


> replied


Thank you very much for the fast reply.


----------



## ezlotogura

NoWake200 said:


> I have to agree Aslan, 90% of our home is HUE and I thought it'd be great to use Control4 to control everything. The process for the tech was beyond cumbersome and it cost me a ton of money, and in the long run we asked to have all the programming removed.
> 
> We wanted our Carrier Cor Thermostat to connect to Control4, and guess what, can not do it we were told. No driver.
> 
> Now we have a TV 'on' issue, it randomly selects "input 3" which requires me to dig out my TV remote in order to correct if I do not want to re-power everything.
> 
> Also just added a new 4K DVD player that isn't talking to Control4 and sure enough the last Control4 Authorized Service Provided hasn't returned any calls. And just today Sonos made me reset my password and now I cannot stream Pandora or my library.
> 
> Knowing what I know today, I would have saved a ton of money and just figured out a basic and simple system for my wife and I to use. Heck, Hue, Carrier, LiftMaster MyIQ and our LifeShield Alarm are all being controlled from our iPhones and NOT Control4. Our iPhone is doing a better job than our expensive Control4 system.
> 
> Control4 is a great system for a very large home, mansion, that have owners that just pick up the phone and call "their people" to fix the problem, most likely have their credit card on file and never know or even care how much it costs. Working schmucks like me don't like to throw money around, and actually enjoy working on electronic, cars, boats and household issues. If that's you, then I'd suggest not getting a Control4 system.


I believe there is a native Hue Driver. for one room Hue may work, for an entire house that can get expensive fast for those bulbs. I'd consider C4 lighting or Lutron.

Carrier - I am not too familiar, quick search says that Carrier Infinity will work if you have the SAM module. Does that make sense? Most people use the C4 tstat or Ecobee, those are very popular. Carrier is locked down, no API. So not really Control4's fault.

Your random Tv on issue - is HDMI-CEC or its equivalent turned off? Different brands have different terminology but its crappy and buggy and really messes with C4. If you do not know what CEC is just tell me the brand TV and potential AVR you own.

Sonos issues is very well known. Again not a C4 issue - Sonos closed off their API and once you update the Sonos firmware you need a new (free) C4 driver. The driver has a slight limitation, you can only pick your favorites out of the C4 interface. So if you want to create a new channel in pandora you'll have to do it via Sonos. Again not C4's fault, that is 100% on Sonos. Rumors say Sonos/C4 may increase their partnership but for now, only Crestron has 100% control of Sonos within an automated platform.

I do not want to be argumentative, I am just stating some facts that this is not really Control4's issue that Carrier, Sonos, etc have their own APIs. Control4 has its own tstat, lighting controls and its own native music streaming services to save you from these hassles and headaches. I know I sent you some remote dealers but hopefully this provides you some answers in the interim before you get set up properly.


----------



## blazar

Anyone reading this forum should definitely check out Simple Control and see if it is an option for them. It is now doing a great job in my media room and solved the problem of both controlling my media room AND controlling my apple TV 4k from the SAME screen. it has touch keyboard and touch pad just like the apple tv ipad remote. you also get a music slider and feedback of the name/track being played on screen as well. This experience is superior to control4 for me.

After going back and forth, I have decided for myself that any remote MUST do a great job with apple TV and Apple Music first and foremost. It must control all receiver functions that I need secondarily. Ideally it needs to do BOTH of the above sets of functions from ONE screen. The Simple Control guys have done a really nice job on this. The simple control system connected to my honeywell thermostats well as well as belkin wemo switches that i use for 12v triggers. Once I fix my lutron hub thingy with an update, I hope it can do my shades too. the only lutron shade that i want to be controlled by remote is the one for media room but I already have it working with alexa with lutron so its not that bad.

My lights and honeywell "vista" security are pretty much the only items that are still on control4 now. Honeywell Vista is NOT "smart". I am definitely considering switching my security to a self sufficient, alexa command capable setup since I don't use my security to automate things like some people do (like turning on lights and whatnot). I am considering something like Vivint but I also sense that the industry will be giving us much better options in home security over the next couple of years.

Currently the ONLY things i use automation for my home security for: stay and away commands via one-touch buttons on control4 and then connecting those commands to alexa. Really all you need is the alexa command part, and control4 adds too much latency to the command.

I pay for the monthly control4 subscription for ONE thing: to turn on my alarms when im not home (since i forget sometimes as we leave). The newer home security systems do this stuff as part of their package already with their apps. Alexa would be able to activate control4 from outside as well but control4 forces you to get the monthly subscription in order to use alexa... this is another thing that really pissed me off which is why I am in this thread.

I think that the Ring Doorbell + Alexa + home security is the combination required to get 99% of the functions you want but that is not fully ready for another couple of years. it would not surprise me if amazon bought out a security company in the near future (like vivint). The alexa devices all over the house will eventually be programmed to "ring" and serve as intercoms which will eliminate the need for having a distributed home audio system or separate set of speakers or doorbell wiring. I can almost guarantee that the amazon people have already noticed this and everything I mentioned will come to pass. The efficiencies gained through this type of vertical integration will be really hard to ignore. All the technology is already there, putting it all together is what is still missing.


----------



## blazar

ezlotogura said:


> I believe there is a native Hue Driver. for one room Hue may work, for an entire house that can get expensive fast for those bulbs. I'd consider C4 lighting or Lutron.
> 
> Carrier - I am not too familiar, quick search says that Carrier Infinity will work if you have the SAM module. Does that make sense? Most people use the C4 tstat or Ecobee, those are very popular. Carrier is locked down, no API. So not really Control4's fault.
> 
> Your random Tv on issue - is HDMI-CEC or its equivalent turned off? Different brands have different terminology but its crappy and buggy and really messes with C4. If you do not know what CEC is just tell me the brand TV and potential AVR you own.
> 
> Sonos issues is very well known. Again not a C4 issue - Sonos closed off their API and once you update the Sonos firmware you need a new (free) C4 driver. The driver has a slight limitation, you can only pick your favorites out of the C4 interface. So if you want to create a new channel in pandora you'll have to do it via Sonos. Again not C4's fault, that is 100% on Sonos. Rumors say Sonos/C4 may increase their partnership but for now, only Crestron has 100% control of Sonos within an automated platform.
> 
> I do not want to be argumentative, I am just stating some facts that this is not really Control4's issue that Carrier, Sonos, etc have their own APIs. Control4 has its own tstat, lighting controls and its own native music streaming services to save you from these hassles and headaches. I know I sent you some remote dealers but hopefully this provides you some answers in the interim before you get set up properly.


At this stage, any control system worth all the money MUST have a phenomenal interface for apple music, apple TV, and Spotify right out of the box IMO. The hassle and headache for me is having to use a different music system everywhere I go: portable, car, home (control4), other people's cars, homes, etc. The unifying factor here is to be able to get the apple interface to show within the control4 app ultimately. I tend to curate my library (add music and delete, sort playlists) while I am listening. Control4 only works for the passive listener.

Apple Carplay function where you can hit "+" while you are driving to add a song to your collection or "like/dislike" rate a song is really helpful. This level of basics is SUPER useful and therefore the "dream" would be full functionality within control4.

I am not sure how much co-developement occurs between Apple and home automation but I suspect very little. This has been the most frustrating part of home automation to me. The things that matter to me most are the things that automation systems do the least well for me. This is obviously made more complicated by amazon music, google music, spotify, pandora and any number of various disparate music streaming systems which all run on their own interface. 

I wish apple would apps to run within apps (like widgets) so you could pull the apple interface into your control4 while preserving the control4 functions on the border of the screen - such as receiver volume control, thermostat, etc.


----------



## ezlotogura

blazar said:


> At this stage, any control system worth all the money MUST have a phenomenal interface for apple music, apple TV, and Spotify right out of the box IMO. The hassle and headache for me is having to use a different music system everywhere I go: portable, car, home (control4), other people's cars, homes, etc. The unifying factor here is to be able to get the apple interface to show within the control4 app ultimately. I tend to curate my library (add music and delete, sort playlists) while I am listening. Control4 only works for the passive listener.
> 
> Apple Carplay function where you can hit "+" while you are driving to add a song to your collection or "like/dislike" rate a song is really helpful. This level of basics is SUPER useful and therefore the "dream" would be full functionality within control4.
> 
> I am not sure how much co-developement occurs between Apple and home automation but I suspect very little. This has been the most frustrating part of home automation to me. The things that matter to me most are the things that automation systems do the least well for me. This is obviously made more complicated by amazon music, google music, spotify, pandora and any number of various disparate music streaming systems which all run on their own interface.
> 
> I wish apple would apps to run within apps (like widgets) so you could pull the apple interface into your control4 while preserving the control4 functions on the border of the screen - such as receiver volume control, thermostat, etc.


100% _*your*_ opinion. https://www.macrumors.com/2018/02/22/ios-android-duopoloy-reaches-99-9-percent/
Android has 85% of the marketshare. If I were a company and I had to pick to support an interface so closely, not sure I'd picked a "closed" apple system vs an "open" android system

That said, personally I am a mac guy, I have an iPhone, iPad and a iMac. And do not have such issues you mention. my iTunes collection is available within Control4. as are streaming services and in those services like Pandora you can like/dislike songs. So not sure why you do not think you cannot get that functionality. 

Someone wrote a driver to help with Homekit support within C4 for apple fans: http://www.houselogix.com/shop/homebridge-driver

2 years ago control4 did show a demo "connected car" of sorts: https://www.control4.com/press_rele...e-and-car-control4-debuts-concept-at-ces-2016 - things like if you are listening to music in the car and you get home you can continue the stream of audio in your house, etc. it could be on the roadmap, who knows.


----------



## zielin

ezlotogura said:


> 100% _*your*_ opinion. https://www.macrumors.com/2018/02/22/ios-android-duopoloy-reaches-99-9-percent/
> Android has 85% of the marketshare. If I were a company and I had to pick to support an interface so closely, not sure I'd picked a "closed" apple system vs an "open" android system


The people buying home setups aren't the same ones buying the $200 android phone.


----------



## ezlotogura

zielin said:


> The people buying home setups aren't the same ones buying the $200 android phone.


but if you are looking at market share....Average income on the two platforms at last check was about $15k difference worldwide. If you dug through the data and removed areas where an iPhone is not even an option in lower income/standard countries, I am sure that financial gap is not as wide. Usage of iOS may be closer than 15% vs 85% when you net out those countries too, but it is certainly likely not a 50/50 split.

Also you keep forgetting Apple is a closed ecosystem, Android is open. The new C4 touchscreens are already Android-based and can have various pop ups and interactions written in Android programming languages. I guess they figured using their market research that Android was a smarter move.

Savant supposedly has a closer tie in to iOS - maybe that is the route a user should take if they want potential better iOS integration - though still not sure what an iOS user is missing in C4.


----------



## ezlotogura

blazar said:


> Anyone reading this forum should definitely check out Simple Control and see if it is an option for them. It is now doing a great job in my media room and solved the problem of both controlling my media room AND controlling my apple TV 4k from the SAME screen. it has touch keyboard and touch pad just like the apple tv ipad remote. you also get a music slider and feedback of the name/track being played on screen as well. This experience is superior to control4 for me.
> 
> After going back and forth, I have decided for myself that any remote MUST do a great job with apple TV and Apple Music first and foremost. It must control all receiver functions that I need secondarily. Ideally it needs to do BOTH of the above sets of functions from ONE screen. The Simple Control guys have done a really nice job on this. The simple control system connected to my honeywell thermostats well as well as belkin wemo switches that i use for 12v triggers. Once I fix my lutron hub thingy with an update, I hope it can do my shades too. the only lutron shade that i want to be controlled by remote is the one for media room but I already have it working with alexa with lutron so its not that bad.
> 
> My lights and honeywell "vista" security are pretty much the only items that are still on control4 now. Honeywell Vista is NOT "smart". I am definitely considering switching my security to a self sufficient, alexa command capable setup since I don't use my security to automate things like some people do (like turning on lights and whatnot). I am considering something like Vivint but I also sense that the industry will be giving us much better options in home security over the next couple of years.
> 
> Currently the ONLY things i use automation for my home security for: stay and away commands via one-touch buttons on control4 and then connecting those commands to alexa. Really all you need is the alexa command part, and control4 adds too much latency to the command.
> 
> I pay for the monthly control4 subscription for ONE thing: to turn on my alarms when im not home (since i forget sometimes as we leave). The newer home security systems do this stuff as part of their package already with their apps. Alexa would be able to activate control4 from outside as well but control4 forces you to get the monthly subscription in order to use alexa... this is another thing that really pissed me off which is why I am in this thread.
> 
> I think that the Ring Doorbell + Alexa + home security is the combination required to get 99% of the functions you want but that is not fully ready for another couple of years. it would not surprise me if amazon bought out a security company in the near future (like vivint). The alexa devices all over the house will eventually be programmed to "ring" and serve as intercoms which will eliminate the need for having a distributed home audio system or separate set of speakers or doorbell wiring. I can almost guarantee that the amazon people have already noticed this and everything I mentioned will come to pass. The efficiencies gained through this type of vertical integration will be really hard to ignore. All the technology is already there, putting it all together is what is still missing.


that is all fine and it works for you so that is great! That said, most if not all of what I read is about control, not automation. Your new platform may be capable of more and that's fine. start a new thread so its not buried 12 pages deep on a thread about control4. I am all for choices and options. If all you need to do is control a media room in an iOS environment C4 is likely overkill. I wouldn't doubt that.


----------



## blazar

ezlotogura said:


> that is all fine and it works for you so that is great! That said, most if not all of what I read is about control, not automation. Your new platform may be capable of more and that's fine. start a new thread so its not buried 12 pages deep on a thread about control4. I am all for choices and options. If all you need to do is control a media room in an iOS environment C4 is likely overkill. I wouldn't doubt that.


Based on my trials with various products, I find that the automation component of many products (like lutron shades, rachio sprinkler controller, etc) have gotten so much better that with a few minor tweaks for device type identification and device event triggers (based on something like homekit), most of us are actually going to get plenty of automation features without having to buy an expensive system.

I am have been building slowly my parallel system, waiting for the tech to come out that does what my current C4 arrangement does, and slowly replacing things.

I could MAYBE list perhaps 10 or 20 "killer apps" that home automation provides but beyond that is a stretch. Sure, I could use some sort of smart system to warm my toilet seat based on my morning habits, but do most people care about this? Most of the automations are not killer apps.

My point has been that many of the reasons why we own a C4 or Crestron has a LOT more to do with control than automation. In fact, dig into your control4 or crestron setup and you will notice that there may be hundreds of various control buttons but only a few actual automations. Therefore the biggest bang for your buck would be a cohesive control system across all devices and a unifying framework (homekit or whatever). More to my point, go look at IFTTT and you will find THOUSANDS of frivolous automations that you would neither need nor want.

The practical and common automations (without c4) for shades, lighting, heating/cooling, have mostly been worked out as evidenced by the fact that I never have to think of any of these things at all. sprinkler and security can do 99% of what I need without connecting to additional automation as a majority of what they do requires no automation. I would like the security system to lock my doors, provide an intercom, video recording, and give me remote access when I'm not home, and maybe monitor for fires and whatnot. All of these features are now baked into something like Vivint.

Tying those events to additional automation is possible but rarely necessary.

I believe the reason homekit is taking so long is that companies like apple are trying to get a few things right before pushing too hard: 1. airplay2 which just finally came out. 2. security of your network devices and updatable security (which is a lot harder than turning on a lightbulb). Hackers have no interest in turning on your lights, but they might have an interest in turning off your security system. More likely they would gain more benefit from accessing your personal computer via your network if that is possible. Perhaps mine some bitcoin or something using your always-on device.

Based on my review of a whole host of devices, centralized control/automation is going to be barely necessary. This is coming a serious techie that has heated floors, mega home theater, tv's, distributed audio, drip irrigation, 18 shades, tons of lighting, smart locks, etc.

I have yet to hear about a home automation case study where I felt it was worth the high price where there was not a drastically cheaper and even simpler work around. This is coming from someone who has spent $70-100k on stuff already. I'd love to hear from people about their "killer application" which absolutely makes them love their automation system that could not be done with an alternative simpler approach. I haven't even gotten into the fact that you could spend now spend half of what I did 5 years ago and get the same or more capabilities out of most of my devices.


----------



## ezlotogura

blazar said:


> My point has been that many of the reasons why we own a C4 or Crestron has a LOT more to do with control than automation. In fact, dig into your control4 or crestron setup and you will notice that there may be hundreds of various control buttons but only a few actual automations.


The point of automation is that no buttons are needed, things just happen. I'd expect to see zero automation buttons.



blazar said:


> Therefore the biggest bang for your buck would be a cohesive control system across all devices and a unifying framework (homekit or whatever). More to my point, go look at IFTTT and you will find THOUSANDS of frivolous automations that you would neither need nor want.


Homekit is 3-4 years in the making and has a whopping dozen or so partners, that is it. If I was waiting on homekit I'd still be waiting. IFTTT isn't bad but again it relies on the cloud (not secure, introduces a time delay, requires internet connection) and also relies on a 3rd party API platform.



blazar said:


> I would like the security system to lock my doors, provide an intercom, video recording, and give me remote access when I'm not home, and maybe monitor for fires and whatnot. All of these features are now baked into something like Vivint.


Vivint does not tie in audio and video. When my alarm goes off my TV's will turn on and show all of my interior/exterior cameras so I can see what is going on.




blazar said:


> I believe the reason homekit is taking so long is that companies like apple are trying to get a few things right before pushing too hard:


Homekit is delayed because Apple is never the first to the table. They were not the first smartphone. They were not the first tablet. They were not the first portable mp3 player. They were not the first home speaker/assistant.



blazar said:


> Based on my review of a whole host of devices, centralized control/automation is going to be barely necessary. This is coming a serious techie that has heated floors, mega home theater, tv's, distributed audio, drip irrigation, 18 shades, tons of lighting, smart locks, etc.


Based on my usage I have not found a way NOT to use C4 to get all the automation I need.



blazar said:


> I have yet to hear about a home automation case study where I felt it was worth the high price where there was not a drastically cheaper and even simpler work around.


Again injecting your personal feelings. High price - what is a high price? My car is $40,000, some people spend $200,000 on a car. Some people spend $10,000's to go on vacation and others drive to the shore and stay in a beach side roadshack for 1 night as a vacation. Different strokes for different folks. If something doesn't work for YOU that is fine but that solution works for plenty. C4's financial growth has been strong. Crestron's headquarters is 5 miles from me and they just opened a brand new facility that is state of the art, all the bells and whistles of a "silicon valley" type office setting. They all seem to be doing just fine.


----------



## weboperations

ezlotogura said:


> start a new thread so its not buried 12 pages deep on a thread about control4.


Umm, this is a thread opposing Control4... his post was more relevant to the thread....


----------



## ezlotogura

weboperations said:


> Umm, this is a thread opposing Control4... his post was more relevant to the thread....


the original poster (who never came back) was bashing C4 as trash. the post I quoted was 99% about how another user is appreciating another system. the thread title is not comparing C4 to HomeSeer or another DIY platform. so if he is happy with his system that is great. We all come to these forums for ideas and inspiration. how is someone going to find that great info he posted on the 12th page of a c4 bashing thread? I thought he had some good points and likely deserves its own thread. I am not judge and jury was just my opinion that info was better served elsewhere.


----------



## VandelayInd

blazar said:


> Based on my trials with various products, I find that the automation component of many products (like lutron shades, rachio sprinkler controller, etc) have gotten so much better that with a few minor tweaks for device type identification and device event triggers (based on something like homekit), most of us are actually going to get plenty of automation features without having to buy an expensive system.
> 
> I am have been building slowly my parallel system, waiting for the tech to come out that does what my current C4 arrangement does, and slowly replacing things.
> 
> I could MAYBE list perhaps 10 or 20 "killer apps" that home automation provides but beyond that is a stretch. Sure, I could use some sort of smart system to warm my toilet seat based on my morning habits, but do most people care about this? Most of the automations are not killer apps.
> 
> My point has been that many of the reasons why we own a C4 or Crestron has a LOT more to do with control than automation. In fact, dig into your control4 or crestron setup and you will notice that there may be hundreds of various control buttons but only a few actual automations. Therefore the biggest bang for your buck would be a cohesive control system across all devices and a unifying framework (homekit or whatever). More to my point, go look at IFTTT and you will find THOUSANDS of frivolous automations that you would neither need nor want.
> 
> The practical and common automations (without c4) for shades, lighting, heating/cooling, have mostly been worked out as evidenced by the fact that I never have to think of any of these things at all. sprinkler and security can do 99% of what I need without connecting to additional automation as a majority of what they do requires no automation. I would like the security system to lock my doors, provide an intercom, video recording, and give me remote access when I'm not home, and maybe monitor for fires and whatnot. All of these features are now baked into something like Vivint.
> 
> Tying those events to additional automation is possible but rarely necessary.
> 
> I believe the reason homekit is taking so long is that companies like apple are trying to get a few things right before pushing too hard: 1. airplay2 which just finally came out. 2. security of your network devices and updatable security (which is a lot harder than turning on a lightbulb). Hackers have no interest in turning on your lights, but they might have an interest in turning off your security system. More likely they would gain more benefit from accessing your personal computer via your network if that is possible. Perhaps mine some bitcoin or something using your always-on device.
> 
> Based on my review of a whole host of devices, centralized control/automation is going to be barely necessary. This is coming a serious techie that has heated floors, mega home theater, tv's, distributed audio, drip irrigation, 18 shades, tons of lighting, smart locks, etc.
> 
> I have yet to hear about a home automation case study where I felt it was worth the high price where there was not a drastically cheaper and even simpler work around. This is coming from someone who has spent $70-100k on stuff already. I'd love to hear from people about their "killer application" which absolutely makes them love their automation system that could not be done with an alternative simpler approach. I haven't even gotten into the fact that you could spend now spend half of what I did 5 years ago and get the same or more capabilities out of most of my devices.



Honestly, with C4's release of the new CA-1 controller ($350), or EA-1 controller with remote ($600), Home Composer that allows user programming , and integrations with other lighting products like Lutron ...why would you want to hobble yourself with a DIY system? You are correct that C4 used to be expensive even for simple systems, but you can do most of what you list very cheaply these days with C4. You don't get into the big $'s until you start playing with matrix audio/video, door stations, etc. If you're doing any of those C4 is a good deal when you are looking at high end equipment. The company is changing (products, pricing) rapidly to embrace the new reality of DIY competition. This is actually the BEST time to get into C4. 

Full disclosure... we install C4, Alarm.com, and several other professional platforms.


----------



## smoothtlk

VandelayInd said:


> Honestly, with C4's release of the new CA-1 controller ($350), or EA-1 controller with remote ($600), Home Composer that allows user programming , and integrations with other lighting products like Lutron ...why would you want to hobble yourself with a DIY system? You are correct that C4 used to be expensive even for simple systems, but you can do most of what you list very cheaply these days with C4. You don't get into the big $'s until you start playing with matrix audio/video, door stations, etc. If you're doing any of those C4 is a good deal when you are looking at high end equipment. The company is changing (products, pricing) rapidly to embrace the new reality of DIY competition. This is actually the BEST time to get into C4.
> 
> Full disclosure... we install C4, Alarm.com, and several other professional platforms.


"...Home Composer that allows user programming , and integrations with other lighting products like Lutron ...why would you want to hobble yourself with a DIY system? "

Doesn't that make C4 DIY?
Or is it still required that a dealer only add new devices to the system?


----------



## ezlotogura

smoothtlk said:


> VandelayInd said:
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, with C4's release of the new CA-1 controller ($350), or EA-1 controller with remote ($600), Home Composer that allows user programming , and integrations with other lighting products like Lutron ...why would you want to hobble yourself with a DIY system? You are correct that C4 used to be expensive even for simple systems, but you can do most of what you list very cheaply these days with C4. You don't get into the big $'s until you start playing with matrix audio/video, door stations, etc. If you're doing any of those C4 is a good deal when you are looking at high end equipment. The company is changing (products, pricing) rapidly to embrace the new reality of DIY competition. This is actually the BEST time to get into C4.
> 
> Full disclosure... we install C4, Alarm.com, and several other professional platforms.
> 
> 
> 
> "...Home Composer that allows user programming , and integrations with other lighting products like Lutron ...why would you want to hobble yourself with a DIY system? "
> 
> Doesn't that make C4 DIY?
> Or is it still required that a dealer only add new devices to the system?
Click to expand...

Correct dealer still needs to add hardware. You can do anything and veryrhing after devices are added. If you use some 3rd party services like IFTTT Devices then dealer is only needed to install one IFTTT driver. You can then program anything and add new IFTTT devices as you want. That is just 1 example.


----------



## blazar

ezlotogura said:


> The point of automation is that no buttons are needed, things just happen. I'd expect to see zero automation buttons.
> 
> 
> 
> Homekit is 3-4 years in the making and has a whopping dozen or so partners, that is it. If I was waiting on homekit I'd still be waiting. IFTTT isn't bad but again it relies on the cloud (not secure, introduces a time delay, requires internet connection) and also relies on a 3rd party API platform.
> 
> 
> Vivint does not tie in audio and video. When my alarm goes off my TV's will turn on and show all of my interior/exterior cameras so I can see what is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> Homekit is delayed because Apple is never the first to the table. They were not the first smartphone. They were not the first tablet. They were not the first portable mp3 player. They were not the first home speaker/assistant.
> 
> 
> Based on my usage I have not found a way NOT to use C4 to get all the automation I need.
> 
> 
> Again injecting your personal feelings. High price - what is a high price? My car is $40,000, some people spend $200,000 on a car. Some people spend $10,000's to go on vacation and others drive to the shore and stay in a beach side roadshack for 1 night as a vacation. Different strokes for different folks. If something doesn't work for YOU that is fine but that solution works for plenty. C4's financial growth has been strong. Crestron's headquarters is 5 miles from me and they just opened a brand new facility that is state of the art, all the bells and whistles of a "silicon valley" type office setting. They all seem to be doing just fine.



I never said the solution didn't work, and I have enough money to buy whatever I want. I am not keeping people from buying a Ferrari if that's what they want to do. I'm just pointing out that you can get a LOT of what is my control4 system with plenty of cheaper alternatives that are out now that weren't available when I put in my system 5 years ago. I really have no guarantee about the network security of a control4 product any more than I do about any other product btw.

So far as home equipment is concerned, I do have the "Ferrari", as far as most people are concerned. I think the concerning thing is that a person with limitless money for this sort of thing is choosing to invest elsewhere in the future should be worrisome enough. I am generally somewhat of a fanboi for the crap that I buy...

My control4 system isn't bad, but it isn't great either. I even have the latest controller. I did have to replace a lot of their switches ($100+ a pop) that seem to go bad randomly.

A perfect example of where c4 fails me: I have been waiting for a cohesive music library system for around 20 years. I pretty much have that now in the form of Apple Music. Control4 hasn't given me an apple music interface. After everything, I still have to airplay apple music or use the on screen interface on apple TV (another app or remote). I can't do all my listening and library tasks with c4 unfortunately.

On the other hand, a $30/year system like simple control solved this problem amazingly well while also allowing me to activate all my stuff on-screen and control my receiver functions without opening any outside platform and doing it all from the SAME screen. 

Maybe c4 will catch up, but I've been waiting the last 5 years... and no joy. Unfortunately despite my massive C4 purchase, I still can't do the one thing I care about most and use most frequently without outside apps.

If you like c4, feel free to support them, I certainly hope for their success. I would have been dramatically happier if I could have access to a programming interface and didn't need to call out a dealer for stuff I could easily fix myself. This more than anything, bothered me to the point that I could not keep justifying the various costs. A competent consumer should be allowed to download the pro-interface and get the job done if they choose to take the risks IMO. If I buy a new $200 blu-ray player, there is NO reason to be paying another $200 to "integrate" it. I already paid then upwards of $70k for a luxury system. I can work on my $300k ferrari if I want to and this should be no different. I know more than the dealers on these subjects, why in the world am I beholden to them?


----------



## ezlotogura

blazar said:


> I never said the solution didn't work, and I have enough money to buy whatever I want. I am not keeping people from buying a Ferrari if that's what they want to do. I'm just pointing out that you can get a LOT of what is my control4 system with plenty of cheaper alternatives that are out now that weren't available when I put in my system 5 years ago. I really have no guarantee about the network security of a control4 product any more than I do about any other product btw.
> 
> So far as home equipment is concerned, I do have the "Ferrari", as far as most people are concerned. I think the concerning thing is that a person with limitless money for this sort of thing is choosing to invest elsewhere in the future should be worrisome enough. I am generally somewhat of a fanboi for the crap that I buy...
> 
> My control4 system isn't bad, but it isn't great either. I even have the latest controller. I did have to replace a lot of their switches ($100+ a pop) that seem to go bad randomly.
> 
> A perfect example of where c4 fails me: I have been waiting for a cohesive music library system for around 20 years. I pretty much have that now in the form of Apple Music. Control4 hasn't given me an apple music interface. After everything, I still have to airplay apple music or use the on screen interface on apple TV (another app or remote). I can't do all my listening and library tasks with c4 unfortunately.
> 
> On the other hand, a $30/year system like simple control solved this problem amazingly well while also allowing me to activate all my stuff on-screen and control my receiver functions without opening any outside platform and doing it all from the SAME screen.
> 
> Maybe c4 will catch up, but I've been waiting the last 5 years... and no joy. Unfortunately despite my massive C4 purchase, I still can't do the one thing I care about most and use most frequently without outside apps.
> 
> If you like c4, feel free to support them, I certainly hope for their success. I would have been dramatically happier if I could have access to a programming interface and didn't need to call out a dealer for stuff I could easily fix myself. This more than anything, bothered me to the point that I could not keep justifying the various costs. A competent consumer should be allowed to download the pro-interface and get the job done if they choose to take the risks IMO. If I buy a new $200 blu-ray player, there is NO reason to be paying another $200 to "integrate" it. I already paid then upwards of $70k for a luxury system. I can work on my $300k ferrari if I want to and this should be no different. I know more than the dealers on these subjects, why in the world am I beholden to them?


A few things:
1) Still not sure of your Apple issue - I have my iTunes collection of studio albums sitting on a NAS running 24x7. I can pull up any song I want and play it in any room I want at any time - I can do this via the touchscreens, my C4 app, the SR remote controls, etc. I do not have to airplay a thing. I have another folder of almost 2 TB of FLAC music files of live concerts, same thing, I can see the artist, which concert, any concert art I attached, etc. So I guess I am just confused - does it look exactly like iTunes no but I see album art, I see the band's name, I see the album name, track name, etc. And that is all just through Sonos. There is an iTunes driver. There is a Kodi driver. There are other options too.

2) You are beholden to a dealer because that is what you bought into 5 years ago. AVS is a unique forum of gadget freaks but most people are not. I do not fix my HVAC when it breaks, I call the repair guy. That is the same logic for Control4 to most of their user base. They do not appeal to all nor do they claim to be the answer to all. Amongst the big systems (Crestron, Savant, C4, Elan, etc) they are by far the most DIY friendly - that is a fact. 

3) I do not doubt other systems can do parts of what C4 can do at a fraction of the price. I agree. Which is why I suggested starting a new thread talking about your build and move from C4 > another platform, I am sure a lot of people would find that valuable on this type of forum.

4) Network security - its simple, if you are not using 3rd party drivers, everything in c4 is local running on a local box. If you have a good home network setup, your C4 is safe. If you have holes in your network then yes C4 could be vulnerable. That is why when someone specs out a C4 (or any system) they should never cheap out or ignore their home network.

5) You do not have to call a dealer "to fix" anything - things can be fixed in composer HE. You need a dealer to add hardware. I have a good relationship with my dealer, he does not charge $200 to ID something in my system - most of the time if it two seconds he does not charge me a penny. When I need to buy C4 gear or other custom installation line type stuff (dealer only products) I buy from him. In return, when I need to add a driver he only charges me the price of the driver, if its a c4 one he'll pop it in for free. Treat your dealer well, find one that works like you, and you'll have a great experience. And this is where remote dealers can shine - hope in while you are at work, punch in 1-2 things and off you go.


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## sbarnesvta

ezlotogura said:


> A few things:
> 
> 5) You do not have to call a dealer "to fix" anything - things can be fixed in composer HE. You need a dealer to add hardware. I have a good relationship with my dealer, he does not charge $200 to ID something in my system - most of the time if it two seconds he does not charge me a penny. When I need to buy C4 gear or other custom installation line type stuff (dealer only products) I buy from him. In return, when I need to add a driver he only charges me the price of the driver, if its a c4 one he'll pop it in for free. Treat your dealer well, find one that works like you, and you'll have a great experience. And this is where remote dealers can shine - hope in while you are at work, punch in 1-2 things and off you go.


This statement should be a sticky in this thread. It is all about finding the right dealer that fits your needs. There are people out there that will nickel and dime you all day long move on to someone that will work with you as stated above and it will make a world of difference.


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## blazar

well some good news: Apple on monday at WWDC announcned deeper integration with COntrol 4, Savant, and Crestron systems which will be able to have access to SIRI finally as well.

Perhaps control4 users will have the ability to actually get full Apple Music and Apple TV navigation from their control4 interface finally? C4's interface is in need of a redesign anyway and this is the time for them to go for it.

perhaps this is part of apple Music going to a web interface also in this next revision.


----------



## ezlotogura

blazar said:


> well some good news: Apple on monday at WWDC announcned deeper integration with COntrol 4, Savant, and Crestron systems which will be able to have access to SIRI finally as well.
> 
> Perhaps control4 users will have the ability to actually get full Apple Music and Apple TV navigation from their control4 interface finally? C4's interface is in need of a redesign anyway and this is the time for them to go for it.
> 
> perhaps this is part of apple Music going to a web interface also in this next revision.


Again I am just trying to understand - what is your current issue with Apple Music and C4? Are you talking iTunes? Their subscription streaming service? Wondering if there is a way to currently help you out. Sonos Connect works with Apple Music and works in C4, so that could be an option?

Native support is always great, but the press announcement was not full of details. If someone wants Homekit integration today in Control4 - there is a 3rd party driver: http://www.houselogix.com/shop/homebridge-driver

I can only hope for solid integration, but again I am not a huge voice fan so the Siri integration isnt huge for me but if it works for others and provides more options all the better for the platform. I got a feeling the integration will be around a remote control with Siri built in; we'll see how it interacts with HomeKit.


----------



## blazar

ezlotogura said:


> Again I am just trying to understand - what is your current issue with Apple Music and C4? Are you talking iTunes? Their subscription streaming service? Wondering if there is a way to currently help you out. Sonos Connect works with Apple Music and works in C4, so that could be an option?
> 
> Native support is always great, but the press announcement was not full of details. If someone wants Homekit integration today in Control4 - there is a 3rd party driver: http://www.houselogix.com/shop/homebridge-driver
> 
> I can only hope for solid integration, but again I am not a huge voice fan so the Siri integration isnt huge for me but if it works for others and provides more options all the better for the platform. I got a feeling the integration will be around a remote control with Siri built in; we'll see how it interacts with HomeKit.


the c4 interface for managing apple music is weak. The interface needs to be at least as useful to me for library management as the original interface otherwise i end up flipping around anyway.

My issue is that c4 has stagnated along with apple previously not working with integration vendors to be able to offer a full fledged interface. It's really as simple as that.

On top of that, you can't control an apple tv with the c4 interface since it does not have a swipe feature - this really makes browsing lists really bad. additionally being able to have full fledged keyboard on the interface is important for entering passwords and whatnot. On top of that, you cant do siri either to enter search queries, etc.

I squarely place the blame on apple tho as clearly their engineers have never given a rats ass about the integration community. I have given them so many simple improvements that they never implemented which would really work for everyone (not just integrators). control4 essentially has been worse than the apple implementation (which has previously also kinda sucked).

In either case, this will all be a non-issue soon imo. apple tv is going to have all our cable, music, movies (including atmos - eventually lossless??), and they are working with integrators to be able to fix all previous issues. Look at how simple remote (previously roomie) handles apple tv now ... its quite good except for siri being missing still. It is head and shoulders above C4 for apple tv control.

C4 has simply not exerted the resources to do what a small developer clearly understood - people USE apple TV's and therefore it has to be priority #1 for c4 to make that experience great. C4 just simple did not keep with the changes as quickly as they should in my view. C4 works for hotels or people that don't like changes but it does not favor folks that love to see all the new innovations implemented immediately. C4 should have really met with apple folks and cooperated to get deep integration years ago if possible. I really just got bored of waiting for apple and for c4 to get interface issues solved. Sonos did make some progress at least in this regard.


----------



## ezlotogura

blazar said:


> the c4 interface for managing apple music is weak. The interface needs to be at least as useful to me for library management as the original interface otherwise i end up flipping around anyway.
> 
> My issue is that c4 has stagnated along with apple previously not working with integration vendors to be able to offer a full fledged interface. It's really as simple as that.
> 
> On top of that, you can't control an apple tv with the c4 interface since it does not have a swipe feature - this really makes browsing lists really bad. additionally being able to have full fledged keyboard on the interface is important for entering passwords and whatnot. On top of that, you cant do siri either to enter search queries, etc.
> 
> I squarely place the blame on apple tho as clearly their engineers have never given a rats ass about the integration community. I have given them so many simple improvements that they never implemented which would really work for everyone (not just integrators). control4 essentially has been worse than the apple implementation (which has previously also kinda sucked).
> 
> In either case, this will all be a non-issue soon imo. apple tv is going to have all our cable, music, movies (including atmos - eventually lossless??), and they are working with integrators to be able to fix all previous issues. Look at how simple remote (previously roomie) handles apple tv now ... its quite good except for siri being missing still. It is head and shoulders above C4 for apple tv control.
> 
> C4 has simply not exerted the resources to do what a small developer clearly understood - people USE apple TV's and therefore it has to be priority #1 for c4 to make that experience great. C4 just simple did not keep with the changes as quickly as they should in my view. C4 works for hotels or people that don't like changes but it does not favor folks that love to see all the new innovations implemented immediately. C4 should have really met with apple folks and cooperated to get deep integration years ago if possible. I really just got bored of waiting for apple and for c4 to get interface issues solved. Sonos did make some progress at least in this regard.


C4 is not a small developer. They are a publicly traded company and they have shareholders to answer to these days. They cannot hack API's to create drivers when companies have asked partners not to do so. It is no coincidence that the Sonos/C4 driver hack started to slip and went by the wayside once C4 became public and Sonos made changes to their firmware to try and prevent the hole drivers used for control. Other drivers from other brands still work with Sonos, but C4 as a public company is not going rouge and coming up with hack drivers that once an API changes, will break, then leave their customers in a lurch. As C4 grows, they need to grow their partnerships so they have access to APIs so they know when changes are coming, can test and make their changes as required. I'd rather C4 have less drivers but every one is certified and works and will not break with API changes vs having an enormous library of drivers but when Vendor X releases a new firmware update you may be SOL with C4 since now whoever wrote that driver has to go and make changes.

Again still missing the issue with Apple Music - streaming service or iTunes/mp3 playback?

Apple TV - I dont have one as I am a FireTV/Kodi person, but I know there are already drivers and it works in C4. Maybe the UI doesnt go on the touchscreens exactly as you wish, but you can pull up menus, pick movies/tv shows to watch etc with your handheld remote control just like using the ATV Remote. re: scrolling, the older C4 touchscreens were flash based but the new T3 are Android based and you can swipe as a gesture. Again that does not mean Apple products work today in C4, but you can hook up an Apple TV and watch/listen to anything in C4, and if the driver/partner allows for swipe gesture, the new C4 T3 touchscreens are swipe-enabled.


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## blazar

ezlotogura said:


> C4 is not a small developer. They are a publicly traded company and they have shareholders to answer to these days. They cannot hack API's to create drivers when companies have asked partners not to do so. It is no coincidence that the Sonos/C4 driver hack started to slip and went by the wayside once C4 became public and Sonos made changes to their firmware to try and prevent the hole drivers used for control. Other drivers from other brands still work with Sonos, but C4 as a public company is not going rouge and coming up with hack drivers that once an API changes, will break, then leave their customers in a lurch. As C4 grows, they need to grow their partnerships so they have access to APIs so they know when changes are coming, can test and make their changes as required. I'd rather C4 have less drivers but every one is certified and works and will not break with API changes vs having an enormous library of drivers but when Vendor X releases a new firmware update you may be SOL with C4 since now whoever wrote that driver has to go and make changes.
> 
> Again still missing the issue with Apple Music - streaming service or iTunes/mp3 playback?
> 
> Apple TV - I dont have one as I am a FireTV/Kodi person, but I know there are already drivers and it works in C4. Maybe the UI doesnt go on the touchscreens exactly as you wish, but you can pull up menus, pick movies/tv shows to watch etc with your handheld remote control just like using the ATV Remote. re: scrolling, the older C4 touchscreens were flash based but the new T3 are Android based and you can swipe as a gesture. Again that does not mean Apple products work today in C4, but you can hook up an Apple TV and watch/listen to anything in C4, and if the driver/partner allows for swipe gesture, the new C4 T3 touchscreens are swipe-enabled.


Yes you can get around the apple tv a bit with c4, you just can't do enough with the interface. same with apple music on apple tv, the c4 interface is only good for playback with limited manipulation. its too slow for anything really robust or useful.

My whole reason for integration is to not have to jump between remotes and apps. This is the most important thing for me in fact when you look at my usage. I end up using to many extraneous remotes for my taste with control4. It makes the experience somewhat pointless except for a few minor automations that matter to me right now.

These days, I have been looking at who implements the absolute best control surfaces, and then work backwards from there.


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## ezlotogura

blazar said:


> Yes you can get around the apple tv a bit with c4, you just can't do enough with the interface. same with apple music on apple tv, the c4 interface is only good for playback with limited manipulation. its too slow for anything really robust or useful.
> 
> My whole reason for integration is to not have to jump between remotes and apps. This is the most important thing for me in fact when you look at my usage. I end up using to many extraneous remotes for my taste with control4. It makes the experience somewhat pointless except for a few minor automations that matter to me right now.
> 
> These days, I have been looking at who implements the absolute best control surfaces, and then work backwards from there.


That's fair again what works for one doesn't work for another. I control 100,000's of itunes MP3's and another 100,000's of FLAC live concerts via the C4 interface with a breeze and 100% Wife approval. I am not an ATV person so I use Fire Tv/Kodi but it works perfect, the Kodi driver always for 2 way control/feedback though honestly I never stand at a touch screen to pick what to watch. I sit down, pick up a remote control and surf to find what i want - bad habits die hard I guess.


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## SMHarman

Yeah, don't quite get using a small screen to choose what to watch on the big screen.


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## freeoscar

ezlotogura said:


> I got a feeling the integration will be around a remote control with Siri built in; we'll see how it interacts with HomeKit.


There is zero chance that Apple will let C4, or any other company, integrate Siri into one of their remotes. They have always been (with extremely few exceptions in the distant past) about closed systems (for better or worse).


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## ezlotogura

freeoscar said:


> There is zero chance that Apple will let C4, or any other company, integrate Siri into one of their remotes. They have always been (with extremely few exceptions in the distant past) about closed systems (for better or worse).


maybe apple builds the remote to work with C4's Zigbee stack
doesn't have to have the C4 logo on it.


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## ezlotogura

freeoscar said:


> There is zero chance that Apple will let C4, or any other company, integrate Siri into one of their remotes. They have always been (with extremely few exceptions in the distant past) about closed systems (for better or worse).


The word on the street in post follow up sessions is that Apple is opening up an API for remote control support into HomeKit. In other words, the ability to add a "remote" to Homekit as an accessory, which would then be able to control Apple TV including issue Siri commands (to the apple TV). That's what I've learned from a few people with ties as developers to the c4 ecosystem.


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## Dude111

Henry Tsang said:


> We installed Control4 system in our new home five years ago. Ever since we became hostages of the dealer. Control4 system is dealer originated system - every little changes, updates - you need to call your dealer for services. Since technology changes so fast and our needs changes, it is very frustrating to rely on the dealer to keep up the Control4 system to an optimal condition at all time. I wish I could undo all the wiring and installation of the Control4 system in my house to gain my control back.


 
Yes its best to stay away from that SMART stuff..... It just lets them spy and have full control......

It amazes me how many people install that ALEXA crap in thier house...... I WOULDNT HAVE IT ANYWHERE NEAR ME!!!

I hope by now you have everything unhooked and back in your control!!! (I hope to see more posts from you here)


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## gdfein

I have a C4 system with two AV locations and i am having issues in two rooms with the AV remote not reliably controlling my Marantz and DTV products. 

Can I get a PM referral for a remote integrator that can assist? I’m in Houston TX. 

Greg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TrendSetterX

gdfein said:


> I have a C4 system with two AV locations and i am having issues in two rooms with the AV remote not reliably controlling my Marantz and DTV products.
> 
> Can I get a PM referral for a remote integrator that can assist? I’m in Houston TX.



You’ll have better luck at c4forums.com


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## ezlotogura

gdfein said:


> I have a C4 system with two AV locations and i am having issues in two rooms with the AV remote not reliably controlling my Marantz and DTV products.
> 
> Can I get a PM referral for a remote integrator that can assist? I’m in Houston TX.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


PM sent


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## blazar

freeoscar said:


> There is zero chance that Apple will let C4, or any other company, integrate Siri into one of their remotes. They have always been (with extremely few exceptions in the distant past) about closed systems (for better or worse).


actually to my surprise, apple promised exactly this with control4 at WWDC last week. watch the wwdc apple video for more info. looks very promising actually...


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## ahard

ezlotogura said:


> That's fair again what works for one doesn't work for another. I control 100,000's of itunes MP3's and another 100,000's of FLAC live concerts via the C4 interface with a breeze and 100% Wife approval. I am not an ATV person so I use Fire Tv/Kodi but it works perfect, the Kodi driver always for 2 way control/feedback though honestly I never stand at a touch screen to pick what to watch. I sit down, pick up a remote control and surf to find what i want - bad habits die hard I guess.


2 thumbs up on Kodi & Fire Tv stick combo. I have two of those and they're great. The way things are going we'll be selecting more and more shows from a touchscreen. I have multiple Chromecast video pucks and it's simple enough to go my Netflix app or the Bravo app on my tablet or phone and pick a show to cast to the any tv in my home. I still use a remote for my Directv genie, baby genies and the Fire Tv sticks.


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## alightinsight

Having spent a few years in this area of the business but no longer being part of it from a automation standpoint, the biggest problem with C4 tends to be their wide distribution. 

Probably 7 years ago I took my installer level 1 course for C4. I'd spent the last 2 years learning wiring, requirements, networking, standards, etc... my boss had given me an ID to program and a few hardware pieces to play around on my home system. 

By the time I went to the training I could design and program single room system with custom behavior, multi room sure but one of the senior guys would usually take take of that.

When I finally went I learned a few things. 

The first was that their training is more geared towards passing the test than necessarily teaching people the fundamentals. 

The second was from the guy sitting next to me, he was an electrician, struggled with the programming, had no prior experience, and had specced a 200k panelized lighting job already and was doing the training so he could actually sell it. I pity whoever the poor homeowner was that ended up going for that quote. 

We would regularly take over automation jobs that the homeowners were not satisfied with. Before just calling it quits I would see if there's someone in the area more qualified. If they are making not asked for changes like updating drivers and not testing the functionality afterwards. Then charging you for a service call... cut them loose.


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## DW_EDMD

*Sick of excuses for CONTROL4*

I'm disgusted by the disconnect between the installers and end-users of Control4.

Someone should take ownership for the fact that so many clients are paying tens of thousands of dollars for Control4 systems and are fed up with the end result.

When this many people are having poor outcomes and are paying so much money, then someone should step up and take ownership- in this case I think it is Control4 that needs to focus less on it's growth strategy and actually drill down on on how it trains its installers, who it certifies as a dealer and what quality of services these authorized dealers are delivering.

If you couldn't guess, I also got duped. Paid tons of money for a system that doesn't work consistently and, when it is working, doesn't work that well. 

Based on my experience as well as experiences that I keep reading about, I would not recommend that anyone purchase a Control4 System. Either the system is so complicated that Control4's dealers cannot get it right or Control4 has no quality control over its dealers- either way, that's a losing proposition for the person writing the checks.


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## ezlotogura

DW_EDMD said:


> I'm disgusted by the disconnect between the installers and end-users of Control4.
> 
> Someone should take ownership for the fact that so many clients are paying tens of thousands of dollars for Control4 systems and are fed up with the end result.
> 
> When this many people are having poor outcomes and are paying so much money, then someone should step up and take ownership- in this case I think it is Control4 that needs to focus less on it's growth strategy and actually drill down on on how it trains its installers, who it certifies as a dealer and what quality of services these authorized dealers are delivering.
> 
> If you couldn't guess, I also got duped. Paid tons of money for a system that doesn't work consistently and, when it is working, doesn't work that well.
> 
> Based on my experience as well as experiences that I keep reading about, I would not recommend that anyone purchase a Control4 System. Either the system is so complicated that Control4's dealers cannot get it right or Control4 has no quality control over its dealers- either way, that's a losing proposition for the person writing the checks.


can you elaborate on the issues? A crappy Savant dealer will give you the same experience as a crappy Control4 dealer. Can you explain how you were "duped"? What was promised that could not be delivered? What are the specs on your home network system design? C4 gear? Where are the hiccups? 

And you say "this many people" - what stats do you have that show people aren't overall happy with the product? Because 2-3 people complain on a DIY forum that C4 isnt DIY friendly? If you read most of this post its people not wanting to pay for dealer support, only a select few really said their experience was "awful" - they just belly ache that to change a TV you need to call a dealer - and yes, that is a gripe for most. And when pressed for info to help most ran away and never replied so really hard to try to help someone. And mind you, I am an end user, not a dealer, so just offering help out of my own good will since most of the time these are easy to resolve issues.


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## bryantc

I just had my Control4 units installed today and after only 5 minutes of playing with it I have decided to completely abandon it. I already found two config issues that I am going to have to call my dealer to fix and I am dreading having to do this every time I make a change or something goes wrong.

I have to agree with the OP here. Control4 seems designed for the type of person who just pays someone else to set up their entire entertainment system for them and doesn't even know what they might have installed in their own house. If you are any type of DIY'er or tinkerer (and if you're reading this you probably are) stay far away from this system and any like it.

Long story but I paid for 3 Control4 units over a year ago when I was planning my new home. At the time I didn't know much about home automation and I just went along with the salesman when he recommended them. I since did my research and read this thread and many others. I found out that basically nothing in my home would work with Control4 other than the home theater equipment (for which there are already many other superior control options). There are a few smarthome devices that I have to buy extra modules for and the rest just aren't supported at all.

I had the choice of cancelling and just getting my money back but I decided to go ahead with it and try it out. Big mistake.

Anyone want to buy a brand new EA3 and two EA1 units with remotes?


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## TrendSetterX

bryantc said:


> I just had my Control4 units installed today and after only 5 minutes of playing with it I have decided to completely abandon it. I already found two config issues that I am going to have to call my dealer to fix and I am dreading having to do this every time I make a change or something goes wrong.
> 
> I have to agree with the OP here. Control4 seems designed for the type of person who just pays someone else to set up their entire entertainment system for them and doesn't even know what they might have installed in their own house. If you are any type of DIY'er or tinkerer (and if you're reading this you probably are) stay far away from this system and any like it.
> 
> Long story but I paid for 3 Control4 units over a year ago when I was planning my new home. At the time I didn't know much about home automation and I just went along with the salesman when he recommended them. I since did my research and read this thread and many others. I found out that basically nothing in my home would work with Control4 other than the home theater equipment (for which there are already many other superior control options). There are a few smarthome devices that I have to buy extra modules for and the rest just aren't supported at all.
> 
> I had the choice of cancelling and just getting my money back but I decided to go ahead with it and try it out. Big mistake.
> 
> Anyone want to buy a brand new EA3 and two EA1 units with remotes?


What do you have that you want to control that's requiring "additional modules" ?


----------



## bryantc

TrendSetterX said:


> What do you have that you want to control that's requiring "additional modules" ?


Hunter Douglas shades. There is an extra box you have to buy for network control. I already knew this before the install. I also paid for a module thru the installer that was supposed to integrate my alarm system. But the installer took a look at the security box and said that it wasn't compatible. So I am getting my money back for that at least.


Besides that I have Honeywell thermostats, GE appliances, SkyBell, etc and none of these can be integrated. But again I already knew this so I'm not here to complain about anything. Just want to inform people about what they are getting into. The one thing he did integrate was my security camera system but it only does Live View no playback. (And even that isn't working fully until I make some config changes but that's my own issue)


I also forgot to mention my ZWave lights to the installer so those haven't been programmed in. That means another call... But like I said I've already decided this system isn't for me


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## bryantc

To be honest I've never been a fan of any type of automation. And this only reinforces that view. I want CONTROL yes but not automation. Right now I have about a dozen separate apps on my phone to control all the things in my home and I am perfectly fine with that.


The only reason I signed off on this was because of the demo I was shown at the dealer showroom. He pressed one button for "Movie Time" and the shades closed, the lights dimmed, all the AV components started, etc. But at that point I had no idea how my home was eventually going to be setup. For example I have power shades but not in any room with a TV.


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## TrendSetterX

bryantc said:


> Hunter Douglas shades. There is an extra box you have to buy for network control. I already knew this before the install. I also paid for a module thru the installer that was supposed to integrate my alarm system. But the installer took a look at the security box and said that it wasn't compatible. So I am getting my money back for that at least.
> 
> 
> Besides that I have Honeywell thermostats, GE appliances, SkyBell, etc and none of these can be integrated. But again I already knew this so I'm not here to complain about anything. Just want to inform people about what they are getting into. The one thing he did integrate was my security camera system but it only does Live View no playback. (And even that isn't working fully until I make some config changes but that's my own issue)
> 
> 
> I also forgot to mention my ZWave lights to the installer so those haven't been programmed in. That means another call... But like I said I've already decided this system isn't for me





bryantc said:


> To be honest I've never been a fan of any type of automation. And this only reinforces that view. I want CONTROL yes but not automation. Right now I have about a dozen separate apps on my phone to control all the things in my home and I am perfectly fine with that.
> 
> 
> The only reason I signed off on this was because of the demo I was shown at the dealer showroom. He pressed one button for "Movie Time" and the shades closed, the lights dimmed, all the AV components started, etc. But at that point I had no idea how my home was eventually going to be setup. For example I have power shades but not in any room with a TV.


You'll forgive me but none of your complaints appear to be problems with Control4.

Control4 integrates with a very long list of other vendor's products but they are limited by whether or not a given product can be controlled. If you had brought in your dealer earlier in your house planning phase, they would have been able to guide your product selection (and temper your expectations where applicable).


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## They_call_me_Roto

Hmm, about four years ago I purchased a Control4 system simply as a universal remote for my entertainment system. I have no aspirations to control lights, thermostats or window shades, just all the electronics in my entertainment system.


And I love having Control4!


I did my homework and compared the Logitech DIY remotes, and also the offerings from URC, but C4 runs my system flawlessly and has a remote which I consider to have the best ergonomic layout. Maybe I'm happy because I have a good dealer/installer???


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## bryantc

TrendSetterX said:


> You'll forgive me but none of your complaints appear to be problems with Control4.


 Isn't it though? The whole attitude of "well that's not our problem" or "we don't support that" is really the problem isn't it? Why doesn't everything "just work"? Isn't that what we've been promised our whole lives? I don't remember the Star Trek crew being unable to solve a problem because their computer didn't have the right drivers.

It might surprise you to learn that we aren't doing anything today that hasn't been done 30 years ago. There has literally been no advancement in this area. And this isn't just about Control4 but the whole industry. As long as things look like this there really isn't any hope. I've been saying this for years.

But like I said I didn't come here to complain but to inform. I knew what I was getting before I got it: $3000 for a universal remote control.


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## TrendSetterX

bryantc said:


> Isn't it though? The whole attitude of "well that's not our problem" or "we don't support that" is really the problem isn't it? Why doesn't everything "just work"? Isn't that what we've been promised our whole lives? I don't remember the Star Trek crew being unable to solve a problem because their computer didn't have the right drivers.
> 
> It might surprise you to learn that we aren't doing anything today that hasn't been done 30 years ago. There has literally been no advancement in this area. And this isn't just about Control4 but the whole industry. As long as things look like this there really isn't any hope. I've been saying this for years.
> 
> But like I said I didn't come here to complain but to inform. I knew what I was getting before I got it: $3000 for a universal remote control.


The enterprise “just worked” because everything was made to UFoP specifications. There is no common “integration” specification at this time - and that’s the problem - that’s why things don’t “just work.” So every time a new widget comes out, C4 has to hope that widget has an API and then a driver has to be created for that API so C4 Can control it. You blame C4 but you should be blaming the widget manufacturers for not making their devices more interoperable. And then you have to deal with competing interests - do you think Samsung or Nest/Amazon really want to help an establishment player keep their foothold - nope.


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## smoothtlk

Know that no control system controls everything.
The system has to be planned as a complete system.
Start with the control system and THEN pick the devices (like the security panel).
Unfortunately, most don't know this is the best path to success. It's a painful lesson that most all that end up with some type of remote control / automation go through.


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## bryantc

TrendSetterX said:


> The enterprise “just worked” because everything was made to UFoP specifications. There is no common “integration” specification at this time - and that’s the problem - that’s why things don’t “just work.” So every time a new widget comes out, C4 has to hope that widget has an API and then a driver has to be created for that API so C4 Can control it. You blame C4 but you should be blaming the widget manufacturers for not making their devices more interoperable. And then you have to deal with competing interests - do you think Samsung or Nest/Amazon really want to help an establishment player keep their foothold - nope.


 I'm blaming the whole industry. And I'm telling people here to forget about "home automation" because its still a pipe dream just like it was when I was a kid.

And to answer your earlier comment the dealer was in fact involved from the very beginning because they were working thru the home builder. And they didn't really provide any info on what I could do. When I later asked them questions like is there any way to integrate a smart doorbell to do something like show on my TV the answer was always "not really".

And I already know your reply will be "find a better dealer"


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## bryantc

smoothtlk said:


> Know that no control system controls everything.
> The system has to be planned as a complete system.
> Start with the control system and THEN pick the devices (like the security panel).
> Unfortunately, most don't know this is the best path to success. It's a painful lesson that most all that end up with some type of remote control / automation go through.


That's no different than what you had to do in the 80s. So nothing has advanced.


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## smoothtlk

Lots has advanced....
It's a whole lot easier now than then.
Would you build a house from the roof down?
Or drive a car in reverse all day?
There are just some requirements it takes to be successful in automating a home / business.


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## bryantc

smoothtlk said:


> Lots has advanced....
> It's a whole lot easier now than then.


How so? You still have to plan everything from the start just like you did then. So what's easier?



smoothtlk said:


> Would you build a house from the roof down?
> Or drive a car in reverse all day?


I don't even know what you are trying to say. I guess you think home automation is a one-time all or nothing installation. In which case I ask again how is that any different than what we had in the 80s? Back then you could also pay someone to build a system that controlled your thermostat, lighting, blinds, entertainment, intercoms, whole house audio, security systems, cameras, etc, etc.


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## smoothtlk

There are many options of quality hardware that is now available at much reduced prices than ever before.
Lutron Caseta, Z-Wave, AV devices supporting IP connections with much better protocol support than ever before. WiFi device support, bluetooth, smart phones and tablets that can be used as control user interfaces, these and a heck of a lot more advancements make home automation and media control within the reach of the masses.

No, you don't need to do everything all at once. You have to do things with a technical architecture and strategy.

And no, you don't need to hire a integrator / dealer. You can do it all yourself. You just have to do some due diligence to get on a correct path. Buying stuff "willy nilly" and expecting it to integrate with everything else is not feasible today.

And that's what I was referring when I said you wouldn't build a house from roof down...there are certain things that just have to be done in the right order to be successful. You don't need to build a castle from Day 1. You can start your system small and extend. As long as you have a good up front understanding of how things integrate, wiring that should be done for "future proofing", and decide if you want to DIY, or you want to hire a pro or a blend of the two.

If you know you want to have an automated home, or don't want a drawer of hand held remote controls, or don't want a dozen discrete apps on your phone to so X,Y and Z, then know that you will need a control system. Some are dealer only, some are DIY, and some support the DIY'r as much or as little as they require. So, pick the control system.

Once that is done, then the list of hardware / software devices that the control system integrates becomes the superset. Pick devices that fall within that superset. If you pick something outside of it, then expect it to not integrate, or to be fairly expensive if custom software is required. Or you better be a software developer to code the integration driver yourself (and the control system has to support you doing that).

Plan and pre-wire the home. Wire is always better than wireless. Conduit in the walls helps to pull future wires.
Wire the home with an equipment closet in mind. Closet is ideally centrally located within the home to minimize long wire lengths. Must be cool and the whirring noises from fans can't be distracting (like within a theater room).

Buy and install (or have installed) the hardware. Configure the automation controller or pay the dealer / expert to do it for you. Test. Enjoy that aspect of the system.

Down the road, add more stuff that is of need and interest. Ideally that is supported by the controller.

Those are the basics.


----------



## Dean Roddey

bryantc said:


> How so? You still have to plan everything from the start just like you did then. So what's easier?


If planning everything from the start was all there was to it, you'd have a point. Also, if planning everything from the start wasn't a prerequisite of almost any non-trivial project of any sort, you'd have a point.

Anyhoo, home automation is most definitely possible, not a dream. But, you either are going to pay for it with time or money or both. Like anything non-trivial that you want built customized to your needs, it's not going to be cheap. And, yeh, you actually need to choose the central brain first. Otherwise, that would be like showing up a the Ford dealership with an engine and shocks and hood you already bought and telling them you want to use that. Would you be shocked to find out that they don't work with just any engine or shocks or hood you want to use?


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## bryantc

smoothtlk said:


> Buying stuff "willy nilly" and expecting it to integrate with everything else is not feasible today.


But it should be because that's what everyone is doing. Someone might buy an Arlo cam at Best Buy today then a few months from now they decide to get one of these fancy new thermostats they've seen everyone talking about. A few devices later and they get to the point where they want some type of centralized control. But oops now they find out that all their devices support different "standards" and none of them can actually talk to each other.


If this industry wants to limit things to new home owners who meticulously plan everything in advance then they may as well pack up shop right now because they have no future.



smoothtlk said:


> Plan and pre-wire the home. Wire is always better than wireless. Conduit in the walls helps to pull future wires.


This is 2018. Nothing should have to pre-wired or wired at all.


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## smoothtlk

"This is 2018." Yup, that's a fact.

"Nothing should have to pre-wired or wired at all" Good luck with that.


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## bryantc

Dean Roddey said:


> If planning everything from the start was all there was to it, you'd have a point. Also, if planning everything from the start wasn't a prerequisite of almost any non-trivial project of any sort, you'd have a point.
> 
> Anyhoo, home automation is most definitely possible, not a dream. But, you either are going to pay for it with time or money or both. Like anything non-trivial that you want built customized to your needs, it's not going to be cheap. And, yeh, you actually need to choose the central brain first. Otherwise, that would be like showing up a the Ford dealership with an engine and shocks and hood you already bought and telling them you want to use that. Would you be shocked to find out that they don't work with just any engine or shocks or hood you want to use?


 A car is a single product sold by a single company that you buy at one time.


I guess that's the model you still use for home automation but that is quickly dying. That is certainly not the model that is being sold to consumers with all the smart devices being sold now.


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## bryantc

smoothtlk said:


> "This is 2018." Yup, that's a fact.
> 
> "Nothing should have to pre-wired or wired at all" Good luck with that.


What should I pre-wire? My wireless Arlo camera? My wireless smart thermostats? My wireless smart kitchen appliances? My wireless smart washer & dryer? My z-wave light switches? My wireless shades? My wireless garage door opener? My wifi doorbell? My wireless Smart TV? My wireless smart lock? My app-controlled security system? My wireless media player? My wireless speakers? My laptop? My phone? My iPad?


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## Dean Roddey

bryantc said:


> What should I pre-wire? My wireless camera? My wireless thermostats? My wireless kitchen appliances? My wireless light switches? My wireless shades? My wireless garage door opener? My wireless smart doorbell? My wireless Smart TV? My wireless smart lock? My app-controlled security system? My wireless media player? My wireless speakers? My laptop? My phone? My iPad?


If, by wireless, you mean Wifi, then one of the planning stages would have been to ask if Wifi is a good way to go. The answer from anyone with any experience would have been that Wifi is the last possible choice to make, and that would have been a mistake not made. Wifi is a horrible choice. The reason all those doodads out there use Wifi is because those folks are not selling systems, they are selling doodads. So they use Wifi by default, and of course, since they are just selling doodads, generally integration is pretty far down on the list of concerns. And of course Wifi gadgets of that sort are rife with bugs and security holes and such.


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## Dean Roddey

bryantc said:


> A car is a single product sold by a single company that you buy at one time.
> 
> I guess that's the model you still use for home automation but that is quickly dying. That is certainly not the model that is being sold to consumers with all the smart devices being sold now.


The point is, it's a SYSTEM, and it works well because it's a system, not a bunch of bits thrown together because you liked the way they looked or some specific detail about them. An automation SYSTEM is a system. It needs to be thought about in system terms.

The folks selling IoTs gadgets to consumers could generally care less about any of your concerns. They aren't selling things to work together, because that's not their market. They are selling standalone doodads. The folks selling things designed to work together are the folks who sell stuff designed specifically for home automation. IoTs widgets have really nothing to do with home automation at all. It's only be chance that some of them can be used in that way.

Here's a potentially useful rant on the subject, or it covers this subject in addition to some others and will tell you why what you want to be isn't going to be.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/162-home-automation/2942294-automation-thoughts-part-unh.html


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## TrendSetterX

bryantc said:


> What should I pre-wire? My wireless Arlo camera? My wireless smart thermostats? My wireless smart kitchen appliances? My wireless smart washer & dryer? My z-wave light switches? My wireless shades? My wireless garage door opener? My wifi doorbell? My wireless Smart TV? My wireless smart lock? My app-controlled security system? My wireless media player? My wireless speakers? My laptop? My phone? My iPad?


By your earlier logic of “it should just work without planning”:
* Your Arlo cameras won’t work without the internet you had to plan for ahead of time /separately
* your wireless thermostats do in fact have a wire which required prior planning for placement to get the best reading and also for running that wire. They also require planning for both WiFi service and internet.
* same for those “wireless” kitchen appliances and pretty much everything else you listed. 

The difference between 20 years ago and now are your assumptions related to the above. 20 years ago you would have been complaining about the planning you do now but do so. Ow without a thought or care because it’s “standard”


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## bryantc

I didn’t plan for my internet any more than I planned for electricity or running water.

And if you’re saying it’s gonna take another 20 years for this stuff to be ready for primetime I agree.


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## TrendSetterX

bryantc said:


> I didn’t plan for my internet any more than I planned for electricity or running water.
> 
> And if you’re saying it’s gonna take another 20 years for this stuff to be ready for primetime I agree.


You’re missing the nuance. You didn’t “plan” for those things now because you already knew (or have been “trained” to) automatically need them. You think the lay person right now automatically knows that Arlo cams require they have WiFi and that the WiFi be able to extend to where the Arlo is? - nope. Plenty of folks interested in HA know the basics enough to “plan” now. Stop assuming that just because you don’t know means everyone else doesn’t know. I think your biggest problem is you know just enough to be dangerous and then add bias and opinion on top of that instead of just knuckling down and actually learning and becoming educated (or 100% leaning on a dealer if you won’t).

Complete lay people to HA have fully integrated functioning houses with C4. Hell, even 100% blind individuals have fully automated houses they can touch and voice control through C4 (not saying they’re not educated, just pointing out that disabled represent an extreme edge-case that is more difficult to satisfy). The technology isn’t the problem - it can all be done today if you’re willing to listen - I don’t think you are.


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## bryantc

Dean Roddey said:


> The point is, it's a SYSTEM, and it works well because it's a system, not a bunch of bits thrown together because you liked the way they looked or some specific detail about them. An automation SYSTEM is a system. It needs to be thought about in system terms.


Exactly. So you agree that nothing has changed in this industry in 30 years.


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## bryantc

TrendSetterX said:


> You’re missing the nuance. You didn’t “plan” for those things now because you already knew (or have been “trained” to) automatically need them. You think the lay person right now automatically knows that Arlo cams require they have WiFi and that the WiFi be able to extend to where the Arlo is? - nope. Plenty of folks interested in HA know the basics enough to “plan” now. Stop assuming that just because you don’t know means everyone else doesn’t know. I think your biggest problem is you know just enough to be dangerous and then add bias and opinion on top of that instead of just knuckling down and actually learning and becoming educated (or 100% leaning on a dealer if you won’t).
> 
> Complete lay people to HA have fully integrated functioning houses with C4. Hell, even 100% blind individuals have fully automated houses they can touch and voice control through C4 (not saying they’re not educated, just pointing out that disabled represent an extreme edge-case that is more difficult to satisfy). The technology isn’t the problem - it can all be done today if you’re willing to listen - I don’t think you are.


I'm listening. Please tell me exactly what I can do without buying a new house.


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## ezlotogura

so many things I want to tackle - I am sure I'll miss a few.

1) nothing has to be prewired? I am doing renovation right now, not even a new build, and I just has a 2 hour walk through with an electrician re: lighting wiring. just lighting, we did not even get to low voltage yet. Why on earth would you think prewiring is not needed? along those lines...

2) wifi is garbage. If you want wifi cameras good luck keeping batteries fresh, making sure you did not drop signal, etc. Maybe I am old school but I hardwire everything including cameras, audio, alarm sensors, video, etc. When you have a bad experience with large home automation, usually 80% of it can be dialed back to the network/wifi issues. You listed a ton of wifi devices, your neighbors all have that many too, add some baby monitors in there or whatever else and your signal is garbage. so your experience will be garbage.

3) there is a generic alarm driver for control4, a dealer worth his/her salt could likely get your alarm system into C4

4) your cameras do not have live play back in c4? not sure what you are looking for by "live playback" but it is possible, I can hit watch > {insert camera name} and I see that camera on the TV - live feed. I can see a live feed on the C4 touchscreen. I can see a live feed on the C4 app too. and I use blue iris as the NVR so I can see a live feed there too outside of the C4 environment.

5) Automation is not a pipe dream, it is alive and well for those who care to plan the project properly and execute. I have automation and I love it. I've moved out for renovations and I am missing it now more than ever - really made me appreciate what I had (and will have when I move back in). As mentioned you need to plan. I know I want blinds so I looked at HD, Somfy, Lutron, Rollease, etc. I had 4 options within c4, I thought that was fair. Lighting you can do C4, Lutron or other Zwave options with a 3rd party controller - that is fair. Alarms you can use DSC, Honeywell, Elk and several others. Music you can use native streams, Sonos, Heos, Fusion Research and 1-2 others. TVs are almost unlimited in choices though Samsung and Sony now have SDDP baked into many models.

6) no hub can do everything - but C4, Crestron and Savant can do a whole heck of a lot. Crestron maybe the most, but c4 has a lot of DIY aspects missing from Crestron and Savant. Its not 100% DIY but it is the most DIY out of the big commercial market systems.


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## bryantc

Yes I get it. Plan plan plan. Just like the 80s.


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## ezlotogura

bryantc said:


> Yes I get it. Plan plan plan. Just like the 80s.


really not sure what that means. 

In the 80's if I wanted to make spaghetti I boiled water, tossed in the pasta and waited 5-7 mins. Guess what I do the same thing in 2018. But I had to plan to make the pasta and wait 5-7 minutes.

so not really sure what you mean by the 80s. If you think home automation is stuck in the 80s I think your head is stuck somewhere else ;-) I am not saying C4 is for everyone, it is not 100% diy, you need a robust network and a competent dealer and yes C4 does slip in dealer vetting and they grade dealers on sale volume and not always service. They are not perfect.

But to say its stuck in the 80s because of planning is really just making no sense. Like I said I just spent 2 hours planning where light switches are going in a house - is that all "80s" to have a nice scheme so I do not have massive amounts of switches everywhere? I'd rather take the time now and properly lay out my house so it is not a hodgepodge of systems, switches, wall warts, etc. when its done it will be done right with pride.


----------



## Dean Roddey

bryantc said:


> Exactly. So you agree that nothing has changed in this industry in 30 years.


I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this, since you are going to just continue repeating the same thing. But, back to the car analogy. You CAN build your own car if you want. What would that involve? You figure it would require a LOT of planning, finding parts that work together and putting them together so that they do work well together? 

So why can't you, a hundred and forty'ish years after the first car was made, just grab a bunch of parts from various manufacturers and put just sit down without any planning or study and stick it together into a perfectly working car? The car industry must be incredibly incompetent.

The same applies here. You can either buy a system designed to work as a system and have professionals put it together for you and maintain it for you, i.e. go to a dealer and buy a pre-built one. Or, you can go through exactly the same things (though in actual fact far less complex) that you would have to if you decided to DIY a car, and create your own automation solution.

That's basically the gist of it. Look, I've seen many of you. You get frustrated and you decided that everyone in some industry you have no real understanding of is incompetent and if you were just in charge it would all work differently. Everyone it in every industry who hangs out on a forum has seen many of you. I imagine you've seen people who show up one day telling you and your fellow whatevers what a bunch of incompetent bozos you all are. What did you think of that person and his almost certainly naive and unrealistic demands?

Anyhoo, that's it for me. It's not my job to change your mind.


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## bryantc

ezlotogura said:


> really not sure what that means.
> 
> In the 80's if I wanted to make spaghetti I boiled water, tossed in the pasta and waited 5-7 mins. Guess what I do the same thing in 2018. But I had to plan to make the pasta and wait 5-7 minutes.
> 
> so not really sure what you mean by the 80s. If you think home automation is stuck in the 80s I think your head is stuck somewhere else ;-) I am not saying C4 is for everyone, it is not 100% diy, you need a robust network and a competent dealer and yes C4 does slip in dealer vetting and they grade dealers on sale volume and not always service. They are not perfect.
> 
> But to say its stuck in the 80s because of planning is really just making no sense. Like I said I just spent 2 hours planning where light switches are going in a house - is that all "80s" to have a nice scheme so I do not have massive amounts of switches everywhere? I'd rather take the time now and properly lay out my house so it is not a hodgepodge of systems, switches, wall warts, etc. when its done it will be done right with pride.


Please tell me one thing your system can do for me that this one can't. And don't tell me app control.


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## ezlotogura

lets see - from what i can quickly gather that green screen shows a few light switches, irrigation zones, turn alarm on/off, hvac control. all control - zero automation.

I give this example often - my housekeeper. She comes over when no one is at my house. doors locked, alarm on, etc. she puts a code into the front door (Kwikset lock). door unlocks and I get a text she arrived. DSC alarm turns off. Sonos starts playing her favorite channels in various rooms around the house and the lights go on. she does her cleaning and when she leaves she presses 1 button, the lock button on the door. all doors lock (in case she left another door unlocked), the alarm goes back on, sonos turns off, all lights turn off and I get a text she left and i set a script to send me a text message at 6pm that night to clean the rags she left in the washing machine because sometimes I forget to do that then when I go do my own laundry I need to do that load first.

See - that is automation. its taking Kwikset, DSC, Sonos and C4 lights along with push notices to make it all blend together. Your green screen example seems to be a kitschy way to turn a light on and off via an old school TV. But its not automation.

I have another example when I press 1 button for goodnight - most lights turn off, hallway lights illuminate then go off after 5 mins giving me time to go down the hall. bedroom tv turns on. alarm engages, doors including garage doors make sure they are closed/locked. when i get into bed I hit 1 button, sleep timer goes on and the master bedroom lights go off. again automation. Though I have c4 touchscreens I rarely use them because things are automated.

When you see the difference in action you'll know the difference.


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## TrendSetterX

bryantc said:


> Please tell me one thing your system can do for me that this one can't. And don't tell me app control.


Lots. Same difference as the comparison between voice control and home automation. One simply controls individual items, the other integrates them. The interface in that link, while cool, is only home control, it is not home automation, and the items it’s controlling are all from a single manufacturer, not many.


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## bryantc

TrendSetterX said:


> Lots. Same difference as the comparison between voice control and home automation. One simply controls individual items, the other integrates them. The interface in that link, while cool, is only home control, it is not home automation,* and the items it’s controlling are all from a single manufacturer, not many.*


 And how is that bad exactly? Since I have to have a dealer install my entire system all at once and then provide me with support for the rest of my life wouldn't it be better to have it all from one company?

What advantage is there to multiple companies when everyone has just told me that "hodge podge" doesn't work in this field?



And there is absolutely automation in that example. Read the text on the screens.


Here's an idea: why don't people like Control4 and Savant cut out the middle man and sell their products directly to consumers like Apple, Google, and Amazon do. (This is rhetorical btw since I already know the answer)


----------



## TrendSetterX

bryantc said:


> And how is that bad exactly? Since I have to have a dealer install my entire system all at once and then provide me with support for the rest of my life wouldn't it be better to have it all from one company?
> 
> What advantage is there to multiple companies when everyone has just told me that "hodge podge" doesn't work in this field?
> 
> 
> 
> And there is absolutely automation in that example. Read the text on the screens.
> 
> 
> Here's an idea: why don't people like Control4 and Savant cut out the middle man and sell their products directly to consumers like Apple, Google, and Amazon do. (This is rhetorical btw since I already know the answer)


You kinda answered your own question. Because making things work correctly across different vendors and different networks takes skill, c4 wants to make sure people are putting together systems that know what they’re doing.


----------



## Dean Roddey

bryantc said:


> And how is that bad exactly? Since I have to have a dealer install my entire system all at once and then provide me with support for the rest of my life wouldn't it be better to have it all from one company?


If you are going that route, then that is the best way to go. However, if you read my previously linked post, you'd know that the world of things to control is VASTLY larger than the automation world. People often complain about the 'automation industry', when the bulk of what they are talking about is stuff far outside of that industry. There's no company in the world, much less an automation company, that is going to make everything from pool cleaners to video projectors to security systems to intercoms to power monitors to lighting systems and beyond.

So, ultimately, if you want everything from one company you will end up limiting the functionality you can have. That's just the nature of the beast. However, if the person doing the installation is competent, and makes good choices, you can mix gear from multiple vendors and it will work just fine. You cannot just pick some random collection of devices that you like for some specific reason, and expect them all to work together. You should generally stick to pro level stuff that is made with automation system integration in mind. IoT's devices are about as far from that category as possible, for the most part.


----------



## ezlotogura

bryantc said:


> TrendSetterX said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lots. Same difference as the comparison between voice control and home automation. One simply controls individual items, the other integrates them. The interface in that link, while cool, is only home control, it is not home automation,* and the items it’s controlling are all from a single manufacturer, not many.*
> 
> 
> 
> And how is that bad exactly? Since I have to have a dealer install my entire system all at once and then provide me with support for the rest of my life wouldn't it be better to have it all from one company?
> 
> What advantage is there to multiple companies when everyone has just told me that "hodge podge" doesn't work in this field?
> 
> 
> 
> And there is absolutely automation in that example. Read the text on the screens.
> 
> 
> Here's an idea: why don't people like Control4 and Savant cut out the middle man and sell their products directly to consumers like Apple, Google, and Amazon do. (This is rhetorical btw since I already know the answer)
Click to expand...

Why don’t almost all car manufacturers cut out the middle man/dealership? I’m doing a new kitchen - why can’t I buy my thermador appliances direct from thermador? I want cabinets but need to buy through a middle man. The amount of things cheap or expensive you cannot buy direct is long. It’s called an economy. We have a free one here in the US. If it doesn’t suit your taste you got options. Oh by the way a 149 piece of software can basically allow a consumer to do 90% of all the work within Control4 so you aren’t 100% dependant on a dealer for everything


----------



## ezlotogura

And not to sound like a total shill but the guy who founded amazon Alexa smart home hired a CEDIA pro to upgrade and install a new system

https://ceklog.kindel.com/2018/04/30/friday-was-my-last-day-at-amazon/

Oh and that same guy a few months later joined Control4 😉

https://www.cepro.com/article/control4_hires_charlie_kindel_amazon_alexa_smart_home_mastermind

So even someone from Amazon still wanted a unified solution. This guy built windows home server. He knows a thing or two.


----------



## bryantc

As Neo once said the problem is *choice*. I just put together my entire home theater myself. I bought a OLED display, AVR, 4K Blu-ray Player, AppleTV, 7.1.4 speakers, game console, furniture. The AVR remote has Universal control with macro support and it is more than enough for my needs. If it isn't I could *choose* to buy something like a Harmony or other control system. None of this is what I would call "DIY" because I didn't actually *build* anything. I just bought a bunch of hardware and plugged it all in. And it all works because its standardized. All of these products also provide at least some level of support if something goes wrong. But at the same time I don't have to rely on anyone else whenever I feel like changing something.
I also setup my entire home network myself with multiple switches, WAPs and have multiple VLANs setup all managed thru a central controller. And I just built my own Gaming PC too. Depending on who you ask these last two might be considered DIY but its all relative. For some people filling their own gas is DIY.

I could have paid someone to do all of this for me. And I know there a lot of people that would do that. But I *chose *not to since I have enough knowledge to do these things myself.
On the other hand there are things I used to do myself that I now pay others to do like mow my lawn, clean my house, or change the oil in my cars. Again this was my *choice*.

Unfortunately the home automation industry as described in this thread offers me no such choice no matter how much knowledge I have. They want me to stay beholden to them for no other reason than to keep their business model alive. If I go with Alexa or Google then you tell me that's not really automation. I could go *completely* DIY and get into the open source world but then I am totally on my own (not to mention I'd have to learn some coding). There doesn't seem to be any middle ground available.


----------



## Dean Roddey

A theater is trivial in terms of 'working together'. It's not a general purpose system, it's a dedicated media playback system. Try to make it control your IoTs devices. Home automation systems are completely general purpose systems. They aren't products, they are tool kits. A network is also a single purpose thing, basically plumbing. As long as your needs are simple (the equivalent of using an IR remote control in the HA world) it's pretty easy to set up. If your needs are not simple, setting up a home network can be a big learning experience with a lot of study time required.

And you don't have to get into coding and open source to go completely DIY. Our product is a perfect example of something that is of commercial quality but DIY friendly. Combine it with something like Lutron's Radio RA2 system (which is also commercial quality but DIY friendly), and you have a very nice system for the core stuff (lights, motion sensors, thermostats, shades) with just two bits. You can pay someone to install it, since that's the really hard part, but do all of the software side of it yourself (the RA2 system and our system) and retain control.

Yes, it will require some study, but you'll end up with something that you'd pay tens of $K for something equivalent in like a Control4 system, and you can make changes when you want. If you want to dig in deeper over time you can add very powerful voice control, and lots of customization to make it all work exactly how you want, set up a nice media management system, etc... But you just aren't going to get something like that unless you either spend some money and a chunk of time or a lot more money. It's not realistic to expect to get something like that for less than that if you don't want to pay something else to do it.


----------



## TrendSetterX

Dean Roddey said:


> Very powerful voice control


You mean voice enablement. Subtle but important difference especially as it applies to the current conversation. Voice isn't actually controlling anything - it's simply another interface (in addition to touch, etc) that relies on something else to do the actual control.


----------



## smoothtlk

bryantc,
I guess you didn't run into any EDID issues when you plugged your Blu-Ray into your receiver and then out to your TV.
Yes, there are standards (HDMI) but even then there are issues that need to be PLANNED for. If you are running a basic single room system, then it's much easier. But if you were to go to distributed video with an HDMI (or HDBaseT or IP) switch with multiple non same TVs...then you would start to understand that the "standards" start breaking down and you need to know what works with what (ie: planning).

Quite honestly, as you gain more experience in this Media Control / Home Automation / Remote Control area you'll have a further appreciation for what the folks in this thread have been trying to illustrate.
We have all been there.

And we have all wanted the nirvana of "plug and play" without "forethought".
It is definitely easier than what is was in the 80s. Been there, done that.

There are quite a few systems that are DIY friendly and significantly help in integrating many disparate products. Dean's CQC, Allonis's myServer, Homeseer are ones that are readily available and commercially supported. But, even these three highly advanced products that mature most every day, don't integrate "everything" so a bit of planning or consultation goes a long way in reducing unneeded expenses and time consumption.


----------



## ezlotogura

bryantc said:


> As Neo once said the problem is *choice*. I just put together my entire home theater myself. I bought a OLED display, AVR, 4K Blu-ray Player, AppleTV, 7.1.4 speakers, game console, furniture. The AVR remote has Universal control with macro support and it is more than enough for my needs. If it isn't I could *choose* to buy something like a Harmony or other control system. None of this is what I would call "DIY" because I didn't actually *build* anything. I just bought a bunch of hardware and plugged it all in. And it all works because its standardized. All of these products also provide at least some level of support if something goes wrong. But at the same time I don't have to rely on anyone else whenever I feel like changing something.
> I also setup my entire home network myself with multiple switches, WAPs and have multiple VLANs setup all managed thru a central controller. And I just built my own Gaming PC too. Depending on who you ask these last two might be considered DIY but its all relative. For some people filling their own gas is DIY.
> 
> I could have paid someone to do all of this for me. And I know there a lot of people that would do that. But I *chose *not to since I have enough knowledge to do these things myself.
> On the other hand there are things I used to do myself that I now pay others to do like mow my lawn, clean my house, or change the oil in my cars. Again this was my *choice*.
> 
> Unfortunately the home automation industry as described in this thread offers me no such choice no matter how much knowledge I have. They want me to stay beholden to them for no other reason than to keep their business model alive. If I go with Alexa or Google then you tell me that's not really automation. I could go *completely* DIY and get into the open source world but then I am totally on my own (not to mention I'd have to learn some coding). There doesn't seem to be any middle ground available.


C4 can be seen as overkill for a home theater, I'll give you that. They sell an EA1 to break into that space but yes it is more expensive than a Harmony hub remote or Vera hub to control that TV. That said you could do more with the EA1 vs the harmony remote so its not an apples to apples comparison but for your use case if it works that's great. You can control your home theater at a price point you like with the ability to service it yourself. If that is what you want and can accomplish your task it is great, but that does not mean the other products or business models are incorrect. There are plenty of users and investors who like the C4 approach: https://www.investors.com/news/technology/ctrl-control4-q2-earnings-amazon-hire/


----------



## bryantc

ezlotogura said:


> And not to sound like a total shill but the guy who founded amazon Alexa smart home hired a CEDIA pro to upgrade and install a new system
> 
> https://ceklog.kindel.com/2018/04/30/friday-was-my-last-day-at-amazon/
> 
> Oh and that same guy a few months later joined Control4 😉
> 
> https://www.cepro.com/article/control4_hires_charlie_kindel_amazon_alexa_smart_home_mastermind
> 
> So even someone from Amazon still wanted a unified solution. This guy built windows home server. He knows a thing or two.


 This is what he said just 2 months ago:




> However, not even the high-end stuff (or industry) is perfect. Some old-school incumbents have intentionally made their products complex to artificially support dealer networks and protect crazy margins. Some do a horrible job interfacing with other companies’ products. There are not enough skilled installers and programmers, which is limiting growth. And it’s all pretty expensive – everyone in the value-chain wants their fair share and the value-chain is deep.


I'm sure he'll change his tune now that hes jumped ship.



smoothtlk said:


> bryantc,
> I guess you didn't run into any EDID issues when you plugged your Blu-Ray into your receiver and then out to your TV.


Nope. Everything just worked. There were one or two settings to enable things like HDR on all the devices but other than that it was pretty much plug and play.


And same goes for the PC too. I bought a motherboard, a GPU, RAM, SSD, power supply, case, CPU all from completely different companies and it booted up right on the first try. And there really wasn't much room for error. Everything can only go into one slot.

But it wasn't always this way. In the 80s there were countless different type of home computer none of which were compatible with each other. But eventually everything ended up standardized on the IBM-PC. And home theater has always been standardized. We used to have RF cables then composite video then component video and now HDMI. No one decided to make a VCR that would only work with a TV from the same company. Even though there is nothing to stop them from doing that.


And yet when it comes to home automation we just get excuses about how its too hard to standardize anything so we need to rely on professionals to handle it all for us.


----------



## smoothtlk

"And when it comes to home automation we just get excuses about how its too hard to standardize anything so we need to rely on professionals to handle it all for us."

No, you have been told multiple times in this thread that you can DIY with products engineered to support DIY'rs.


----------



## ezlotogura

correct he did say "However, not even the high-end stuff (or industry) is perfect. Some old-school incumbents have intentionally made their products complex to artificially support dealer networks and protect crazy margins. Some do a horrible job interfacing with other companies’ products. There are not enough skilled installers and programmers, which is limiting growth. And it’s all pretty expensive – everyone in the value-chain wants their fair share and the value-chain is deep."

however - this is where I will sound like a shill for c4 - he did not point out C4, just old school incumbents which I am likely thinking was pointed towards AMX, Crestron, etc. I have less experience there but I think I've read that a dealer owns the code in Crestron, not the home user. I cannot get into this guy's mind but reading his blog posts I would think he was pointing out those companies. And I'll also agree with him that there are not enough good installers - I've heard many bad stories about poor installs of various systems - to me that plagues the industry as a whole.

C4 has Composer Home Edition. You can do 90% of the work using that tool. They have When/then that allows you a level of programming using the Web with simple commands. I think this diminishes his claim about artificially supporting a dealer network. Yes there are 10% of tasks you need a dealer to do but I have a fairly complex C4 set up that is going on 5 years and in the last year maybe my dealer billed me 5 hours of work.


----------



## Dean Roddey

TrendSetterX said:


> You mean voice enablement. Subtle but important difference especially as it applies to the current conversation. Voice isn't actually controlling anything - it's simply another interface (in addition to touch, etc) that relies on something else to do the actual control.


I guess it's where you want to stand and look. As with any other input mechanism, voice commands are controlling CQC, and CQC is controlling other things in response. So it's not unreasonable to just call it voice control. That is a pretty widely used term for it and probably difficult to dislodge at this point.

But, anyhoo, yes, voice just becomes another input mechanism in that scenario just like a touch screen or remote control or wall panel.


----------



## Dean Roddey

bryantc said:


> And yet when it comes to home automation we just get excuses about how its too hard to standardize anything so we need to rely on professionals to handle it all for us.


It's not 'too hard' to do it. It's just that, to make that happen, you are going to have to convince thousands of companies, who have nothing whatsoever to do with the home automation industry, to do that. If you want to make that happen, I'm sure we'd be happy to let you. But, otherwise, you are just complaining about something that no one in the automation industry has any control over at all. You really think anyone in the automation industry is going to force Sony, GE, Google, and so forth (all of whom are larger by themselves than the entire automation industry) to do what they want? They can't even force the thousands of vastly smaller companies to do that.

BTW, you keep coming up with comparisons where you cherry pick only those aspects of it that suit your argument. Tell me why you can't take a program that runs on OSX and run it on Windows after all these years? Why can't you take a program written for Linux and run it on your iPhone? And plenty of folks have bought all their parts for their DIY PC and put them together to find out it doesn't work because of incompatible parts, or to find out that they can't even put them together because things don't fit. And, shock, they had to do a good bit of research just to make sure that they got a handful of parts that are compatible. And a PC is a vastly more limited system. 99% of it is fixed function and you are just choosing a handful of options, so it really just doesn't compare to creating a home automation system, which is something quite personalized and which is not fixed function at all.


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## bryantc

Dean Roddey said:


> It's not 'too hard' to do it. It's just that, to make that happen, you are going to have to convince thousands of companies, who have nothing whatsoever to do with the home automation industry, to do that. If you want to make that happen, I'm sure we'd be happy to let you. But, otherwise, you are just complaining about something that no one in the automation industry has any control over at all. You really think anyone in the automation industry is going to force Sony, GE, Google, and so forth (all of whom are larger by themselves than the entire automation industry) to do what they want? They can't even force the thousands of vastly smaller companies to do that.


From what you describe the entire home automation industry is a *hack*: getting products to do things they weren't designed to do. I have no interest in investing time and money in such an endeavor.


----------



## smoothtlk

bryantc said:


> From what you describe the entire home automation industry is a *hack*: getting products to do things they weren't designed to do. I have no interest in investing time and money in such an endeavor.


It's not that they weren't designed to "do", it's that each piece of hardware was designed to integrate but without following any industry standard.
That's where a good control system comes in that knows how each hardware is communicated to and the technical methods to bring them together into an ecosystem.

myServer takes the unique hardware protocol and maps each command back to our "Family Structure". This is our own "standard" for how devices talk to the user interface and the rules engine. All lighting devices at a minimum go On / Off or Dim to a particular value. The user interface doesn't really care how Lutron devices "do it" or how Z-Wave devices "do it". So the UI can talk to many different lighting devices, and all at once as well.

But, it doesn't sound like this is for you. That's certainly your call. There is a fast growing population of new folks that are interested. The major players with their marketing clout are introducing the subject to a whole new group of newbees. Those newbees once they have a taste, some of which will be looking for a true automation system (not just control).


----------



## Dean Roddey

bryantc said:


> From what you describe the entire home automation industry is a *hack*: getting products to do things they weren't designed to do. I have no interest in investing time and money in such an endeavor.


sigh...


----------



## dbone1026

I am new to C4. We just had our basement redone and got a home theater set up, so decided to go the C4 route. Right now I am using C4 for basic stuff (turn on / off HT system, HT lighting). The system does what I need it to do, but honestly is probably overkill if that is all I ever use it for. I have been debating whether or not I expand the system to the rest of the house. For example, lighting control. Currently I have Phillips Hue set up in a few rooms, so we can control those lights either via the App or Alexa voice commands. I would like to expand this but we have a lot of lights in our house so the cost for the Hue bulbs jumps rather quick. The other option is then to start looking at Smart switches instead. The main use would be to turn lights on / off via Alexa. Looking at the cost to just add a single switch with C4 vs some of the alternatives, just not sure if it makes sense to continue with C4 beyond its current use. I will keep digging around a little before sorting out what direction I want to go in.

My two annoyances with C4:

- I can't add new equipment on my own. When my HT first got set up we were still using cable. Decided to ditch cable, so added a replacement device (plus one other) which I need to have the dealer add in. Until then, I have been controlling those devices manually. My understanding, the Composer HE software doesn't give you the ability to add devices.
- In order to use Alexa, not only do you need to pay, but as a subscription (4Sight) which IMO is ridiculous.


----------



## ezlotogura

dbone1026 said:


> I am new to C4. We just had our basement redone and got a home theater set up, so decided to go the C4 route. Right now I am using C4 for basic stuff (turn on / off HT system, HT lighting). The system does what I need it to do, but honestly is probably overkill if that is all I ever use it for. I have been debating whether or not I expand the system to the rest of the house. For example, lighting control. Currently I have Phillips Hue set up in a few rooms, so we can control those lights either via the App or Alexa voice commands. I would like to expand this but we have a lot of lights in our house so the cost for the Hue bulbs jumps rather quick. The other option is then to start looking at Smart switches instead. The main use would be to turn lights on / off via Alexa. Looking at the cost to just add a single switch with C4 vs some of the alternatives, just not sure if it makes sense to continue with C4 beyond its current use. I will keep digging around a little before sorting out what direction I want to go in.
> 
> My two annoyances with C4:
> 
> - I can't add new equipment on my own. When my HT first got set up we were still using cable. Decided to ditch cable, so added a replacement device (plus one other) which I need to have the dealer add in. Until then, I have been controlling those devices manually. My understanding, the Composer HE software doesn't give you the ability to add devices.
> - In order to use Alexa, not only do you need to pay, but as a subscription (4Sight) which IMO is ridiculous.


Do you have an EA1, EA3 or EA5 for the home theater set up? If an EA1 you may be limited to how much more of the house you can run but an EA3 or EA5 should give plenty of head room to grow.

To provide more insight on your concerns re: 4sight's yearly cost and Alexa integration:

for $99/year 4sight gives you:
1) alexa integration native (without 3rd party drivers)
2)push notifications
3) the new remote integration offered with the door station
4) the biggest one - the ability to use the c4 app while not on your home network - since you only have a home theater set up this is likely less important to you.

True you cannot add equipment - Composer HE lets you do 100% of the programming but not add hardware. A good remote dealer can add hardware quick and very cheap. composer He also comes with 1 year of 4site, so for $149 you get the software and the $99/year 4sight for 1 year - its a bargain.

There are 1-2 3rd party drivers for Alexa integration as well, 1 time fee, do not need 4sight, and you can get Alexa to work. So you have that option too.

You have other options for lighting, I personally think hue is way too expensive per bulb as you said, so move on from there. Some people go with Lutron Caseta or Lutron Radio Ra2.

Pros to Lutron: 
- you can buy them direct
- lower price point
- works on same c4 proxy so within C4 you cannot tell if its a Lutron switch or a C4 switch, its seemless

Cons to Lutron:
- you need another hub ($$)
- if you go RadioRa2 you either need to pay for training or pay someone to program it ($$)
- you need a driver for it work in C4 and need to pay for the driver + programming ($$)
- it does not increase your zigbee mesh - that is the biggest plus to C4 light switches

I am not 100% sure about the lutron gear, but c4 switches allow for single, double and triple tap. so every button is really giving you 3 options. single tap lights go on, double tap lights go down to 50%. single tap the music icon music goes on, double tap I mute the music and triple tap skips a song. Plus the increased zigbee coverage - Zigbee is the wireless control C4 uses - think Wifi just a different protocol. Each switch gives off more zigbee signal, so each light switch is like a mini wifi access point. the bigger your house, the more gear ya got, the extra zigbee coverage is a great.

What is saved on the lutron hardware is likely almost spent on additional hubs, programming, drivers, training, etc. Depending on how big of a project you can maybe get some cost savings but its nothing great, then with Lutron (or other options) you do not get the increased Zigbee coverage.

c4forums.com is a great resource dedicated to c4 information. I do my best here to educate where possible but there is a ton more helpful info over on that site.


----------



## Dean Roddey

I don't think you have to pay for training for RA2. It's just an online course, right?


----------



## ezlotogura

Dean Roddey said:


> I don't think you have to pay for training for RA2. It's just an online course, right?


maybe it is Level 2 that has a fee. Either way in C4 you'd need to get a Lutron hub + extra c4 programming + drivers so it does eat into the cost.

I just went with C4 lighting - the zigbee factor plus the aesthetics (wife liked the C4 keypads) just had me go C4

1 other benefit I forgot - C4 has LED lights that are programmable on the top/bottom of their switches/dimmers. When I am in the house and the alarm is on to "stay", the LED's are Red. so if I am about to go out a door I'll see the Red LED's and go wait a minute, the alarm is on, duh. I have the LED's change color when my outdoor heated stairs are I know so I know they are running. You can have the LED's change to a different color to signal any status you want in C4. Another cool little feature. Also I think the backlight engravings look really sharp too - we get complimented on them all the time.


----------



## dbone1026

ezlotogura said:


> Do you have an EA1, EA3 or EA5 for the home theater set up? If an EA1 you may be limited to how much more of the house you can run but an EA3 or EA5 should give plenty of head room to grow.
> 
> To provide more insight on your concerns re: 4sight's yearly cost and Alexa integration:
> 
> for $99/year 4sight gives you:
> 1) alexa integration native (without 3rd party drivers)
> 2)push notifications
> 3) the new remote integration offered with the door station
> 4) the biggest one - the ability to use the c4 app while not on your home network - since you only have a home theater set up this is likely less important to you.
> 
> True you cannot add equipment - Composer HE lets you do 100% of the programming but not add hardware. A good remote dealer can add hardware quick and very cheap. composer He also comes with 1 year of 4site, so for $149 you get the software and the $99/year 4sight for 1 year - its a bargain.
> 
> There are 1-2 3rd party drivers for Alexa integration as well, 1 time fee, do not need 4sight, and you can get Alexa to work. So you have that option too.
> 
> You have other options for lighting, I personally think hue is way too expensive per bulb as you said, so move on from there. Some people go with Lutron Caseta or Lutron Radio Ra2.
> 
> Pros to Lutron:
> - you can buy them direct
> - lower price point
> - works on same c4 proxy so within C4 you cannot tell if its a Lutron switch or a C4 switch, its seemless
> 
> Cons to Lutron:
> - you need another hub ($$)
> - if you go RadioRa2 you either need to pay for training or pay someone to program it ($$)
> - you need a driver for it work in C4 and need to pay for the driver + programming ($$)
> - it does not increase your zigbee mesh - that is the biggest plus to C4 light switches
> 
> I am not 100% sure about the lutron gear, but c4 switches allow for single, double and triple tap. so every button is really giving you 3 options. single tap lights go on, double tap lights go down to 50%. single tap the music icon music goes on, double tap I mute the music and triple tap skips a song. Plus the increased zigbee coverage - Zigbee is the wireless control C4 uses - think Wifi just a different protocol. Each switch gives off more zigbee signal, so each light switch is like a mini wifi access point. the bigger your house, the more gear ya got, the extra zigbee coverage is a great.
> 
> What is saved on the lutron hardware is likely almost spent on additional hubs, programming, drivers, training, etc. Depending on how big of a project you can maybe get some cost savings but its nothing great, then with Lutron (or other options) you do not get the increased Zigbee coverage.
> 
> c4forums.com is a great resource dedicated to c4 information. I do my best here to educate where possible but there is a ton more helpful info over on that site.


Thanks for all the info, that is extremely helpful.

I have the EA5. That is why it seems stupid to not at least try to build off of it for the rest of the house. The dealer needs to come back next week to set my system back up (the ceiling was f'd up, so the contractor is redoing which means all the HT gear needed to be taken back down until completed) so I may talk t o him as well. I could always grab one or two C4 light switches for the rooms where I would most likely use, see how I like before I think further about integration. At some point I would like to integrate things a little better (i.e. I have IP cameras around my house, Ring Floodlight over driveway, Phillips Hue bulbs, Sonos, etc...)


----------



## ezlotogura

With the Ea5 you do not really need sonos - ea5 can do 5 streams. Unless you are using Play speakers? If so you can do Sonos in C4, the c4 interface is just limited (due to Sonos). you can play any favorites within the c4 app, you just cannot search for content, create new stations, etc within the c4 app (again this is a limitation by sonos, not c4)

When people talk about slowly adding light switches there are two mentalities: rooms used often or "security" lights such as ones on the exterior or the front of the house on the inside to make it appear someone is home. I use the scheduler in C4 to have interior and exterior lights go on/off daily based on several factors. Again two schools of thought, neither is right or wrong. If you put one in your theater you can hit watch > movie and the lights can dim (or go off)...TV/projector etc starts the media content, etc. Someone has a driver I think for Dune players or Kaleidoscope, etc, I forget but it can sense when the credits start to roll and you can program for the lights to start to slowly ramp back up to 100% over X period of time, just like a movie theater.

IP cameras you got a few options - my personal favorite is to use Blue Iris. super powerful, camera agnostic - likely over 1,000 cameras will work with it especially all the normal hard ware IP cameras. from there Control4 can see the cameras and you can do various programming, see them on the C4 interface, etc. Not sure about the Ring Floodlight, the Ring doorbell has a closed API. Phillips hue can integrate as mentioned, you need a driver that is a 1 time fee, dont think there is native C4 support for that platform. 

the ea5 has a ton of horse power - giddy up!!!


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## dbone1026

ezlotogura said:


> With the Ea5 you do not really need sonos - ea5 can do 5 streams. Unless you are using Play speakers? If so you can do Sonos in C4, the c4 interface is just limited (due to Sonos). you can play any favorites within the c4 app, you just cannot search for content, create new stations, etc within the c4 app (again this is a limitation by sonos, not c4)
> 
> When people talk about slowly adding light switches there are two mentalities: rooms used often or "security" lights such as ones on the exterior or the front of the house on the inside to make it appear someone is home. I use the scheduler in C4 to have interior and exterior lights go on/off daily based on several factors. Again two schools of thought, neither is right or wrong. If you put one in your theater you can hit watch > movie and the lights can dim (or go off)...TV/projector etc starts the media content, etc. Someone has a driver I think for Dune players or Kaleidoscope, etc, I forget but it can sense when the credits start to roll and you can program for the lights to start to slowly ramp back up to 100% over X period of time, just like a movie theater.
> 
> IP cameras you got a few options - my personal favorite is to use Blue Iris. super powerful, camera agnostic - likely over 1,000 cameras will work with it especially all the normal hard ware IP cameras. from there Control4 can see the cameras and you can do various programming, see them on the C4 interface, etc. Not sure about the Ring Floodlight, the Ring doorbell has a closed API. Phillips hue can integrate as mentioned, you need a driver that is a 1 time fee, dont think there is native C4 support for that platform.
> 
> the ea5 has a ton of horse power - giddy up!!!


The Sonos I had long before C4, so doesn't make sense to get rid of. I have two sonos amps (one powers my backyard speakers and the other powers in ceiling speakers in t he basement). Aside from that I have two S5s which I can place where ever else I want in the house at the time. 

In the HT room, there are already C4 switches in there. I haven't had time to create scenes or any of that stuff, but will work on with the integrator (and if I get the software, can program myself). So far though, everything in the HT works as expected so happy there.

With the other lights in the house, I would probably start with the bedrooms. Right now that is what I use Hue/Alexa to turn on and off the lights (especially since my kids seemed to be challenged with doing so). 

As well, would like to eventually set up smart thermostats. Initially had Nest when I first bought this place, but the Nests didn't play nice with my HVAC system so had to remove. The other ones I was looking at (Honeywell, etc...) all require C wires which at the current moment I don't feel like paying an electric to set up for my 3 zones. 

Will get there eventually though. Baby steps, try some C4 activities outside of the HT room and go from there!


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## ezlotogura

dbone1026 said:


> The Sonos I had long before C4, so doesn't make sense to get rid of. I have two sonos amps (one powers my backyard speakers and the other powers in ceiling speakers in t he basement). Aside from that I have two S5s which I can place where ever else I want in the house at the time.
> 
> In the HT room, there are already C4 switches in there. I haven't had time to create scenes or any of that stuff, but will work on with the integrator (and if I get the software, can program myself). So far though, everything in the HT works as expected so happy there.
> 
> With the other lights in the house, I would probably start with the bedrooms. Right now that is what I use Hue/Alexa to turn on and off the lights (especially since my kids seemed to be challenged with doing so).
> 
> As well, would like to eventually set up smart thermostats. Initially had Nest when I first bought this place, but the Nests didn't play nice with my HVAC system so had to remove. The other ones I was looking at (Honeywell, etc...) all require C wires which at the current moment I don't feel like paying an electric to set up for my 3 zones.
> 
> Will get there eventually though. Baby steps, try some C4 activities outside of the HT room and go from there!


Ecobee is a big fav amongst C4 people. I personally use the C4 stats buried in the basement mechanical room then I run flush mounted paintable sensors around the house and feed those back to the t-stats, so I do not use the t-stats for reading, only control. https://www.amazon.com/Aprilaire-RP8051-Flush-Temperature-Sensor/dp/B00HHDRAII

Like I said Sonos will work, just a bit hampered by the API but you can pick out a stream, program a favorite stream to start up upon an action, etc. I used to have sonos but during my current home renovation project I am removing it and just hardwiring speakers to the ceiling and doubling down on the C4 amp + c4 matrix set up. Just my personal choice and easier for my needs. 

If you got any other questions feel free to ask.


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## smoothtlk

Since C4 system is local in the home (a good thing), you ideally would be using a thermostat that communicates locally to C4. We use Venstar thermostats as they locally communicate via WiFi to the myServer system. That way, if the Internet is down, no issues of remote control / automation.

myServer also supports cloud based: EcoBee (I have one), Nest (had one), Honeywell (I have one), and other local thermostats: RCS (had several), RadioThermostat (had several), Lutron, and others.

Not sure what C4 supports, but see if they support a local communicating thermostat. Once you tie into a good automation system, the thermostat doesn't then need to be "advanced".


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## FlyingDiver

smoothtlk said:


> myServer also supports cloud based: EcoBee (I have one), Nest (had one), Honeywell (I have one), and other local thermostats: RCS (had several), RadioThermostat (had several), Lutron, and others.


No experience with most of the others, but Lutron would be local control, not cloud based. If it's not, you need to have a new driver written.


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## smoothtlk

Yes, might not have been clear, but I listed Lutron with the other Local thermostats (RCS and RadioThremostat).


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## Dean Roddey

We support all of those as well. The Nest of course is to be avoided because of its cloud based connection. But, of course, as seems to always be the case, the worst options end up the most popular.


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## smoothtlk

"COMMUNICATION ALERT
Alert: The thermostat XYZ not communicating with My Total Connect Comfort.
Date & Time: 8/7/2018 11:28:35 PM"

Get these messages pretty much every day from a Honeywell cloud thermostat. Soon followed up with a "it's resolved" message.
Never see such messages from the EcoBee cloud.
So something is different.
Maybe Honeywell cloud server looks for connection more regularily than the Eco cloud.
Or the "XYZ" WiFi isn't as solid as the WiFi the Eco is on.

Either way, indicative of cloud based problem.


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## Tony Vega

Just picked up an EA3 System. Too bad we don't have a dedicated thread with a not so mis-leading title, but I must say, I have been patiently waiting 3+ weeks for my local dealer to install and configure the system.


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## kam.sanghera

ahard said:


> This correct. But I at a base level, the so-called DIY hubs do allow for automation and not just control. I don't want anyone to read this thread and get the impression that they don't. Now, will a DIY hub automate all of the items that a integrator based system can? Certainly not. And I'm not trying to make that case. But for what most Americans would want to automate: lights, HVAC, garage door, door locks, a DIY hub will do those things.
> 
> I can only speak for the hub that I use, but I also have mock occupancy scenes (I read the Control4 blog) that I've created for when I leave to go on vacation. I tell Alexa or Google Home to turn on Vacation and all the lights will turn off, the HVAC will be set to the appropriate temp and the av system will turn off. After 5 minutes the garage door will close and all motion sensors will be set so that if there is movement in the house every light will turn on and the alarm will sound.
> 
> I can tell Alexa or Google Home to turn on the movie and my lights will turn off, the garage door will close, the mud room door will lock, the avr will switch inputs, the blu-ray player door will open and the projector will turn on. If I wanted, I could include my blinds in that automation so that they close when I give that command.
> 
> I also have a Good night scene, where I can tell Alexa or Google to turn on Good night and the family room lights, av system and kitchen lights will turn off while the master bedroom and bathroom lights turn on as well as the master bedroom tv. After 15 minutes the motion sensors are set so that if I get up in the middle of the night to use the master bathroom, the light in the master bathroom water-closet will turn on; the same thing happens for the bedrooms at the front of the house.
> 
> I have a Good morning scene that I only use on Saturdays, where I turn over to my night stand and I say to Alexa, turn on Good Morning and the lights in the kitchen turn on, the tv in the family room turns on changes to my favorite station and the master bathroom lights turn on.
> 
> I also have a Welcome Home scene where on Mon-Fri when I enter a the geofence I've established near my home, the av system in the family room turns on, the garage door opens, certain lights in the house turn on or dim to a particular percentage and the hvac turns on to appropriate temp. On the weekends, whenever I enter the geofence I have it set so that only the garage door opens; no lights turn on. During this time of the year, when I enter the geofence during the work week, my Christmas tree lights also turn on when the other lights turn on. I used to have it set so that when I entered my code on the door lock the Christmas tree lights turned on. On the weekends, the Christmas Tree lights turn on when the sun sets.
> 
> My outdoor lights turn on when the sunsets and they turn off when the sunrises.
> 
> I have an automation where I can tell Alexa or Google Home to turn on Chromecast or the Amazon Fire Stick and the avr will go to the correct input. I can also ask either assistant to watch Stranger Things on Netflix and Stranger Things will start to play.
> 
> I also have automated my ceilings fans. I have a temperature sensor in each room. I can designate a temp for each room so that when let's say the master bedroom reaches 78 degrees, the ceiling fan will turn on to whatever speed I've designated (I like medium for the master). When the temp in the master reaches 76 the ceiling fan turns off. I can also tell Alexa to turn on the ceiling fan and it will turn on.
> 
> I never open a single app to do any of these things when I'm home. No need to. If I wanted I could buy a wall mounted tablet-like controller that the company that makes my hub sells and use that to kickoff scenes. But I use voice exclusively to kickoff scenes.


Ahard, can you please share some more details around your system? I am in market for a new home construction and trying to avoid Control 4 and use DYI project. I need connection between audio, lights, garage, front door, security. Classic scenario coming to mind, tell alexa to play movie and it should turn on projector, close theatre room blinds, dim the lights, lock the front door and garage and adjust heat temperature etc. Thanks in advance


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## ahard

kam.sanghera said:


> Ahard, can you please share some more details around your system? I am in market for a new home construction and trying to avoid Control 4 and use DYI project. I need connection between audio, lights, garage, front door, security. Classic scenario coming to mind, tell alexa to play movie and it should turn on projector, close theatre room blinds, dim the lights, lock the front door and garage and adjust heat temperature etc. Thanks in advance


Everything in the post you quoted summarizes my system. What I didn't say in that post is that my system is all Z-wave, excluding some wifi cams connected to my alarm system. Also, I should have said that I'm not trying lift a tv out of the floor, or looking for some other edge case scenario to happen in my home, which is why my system works for me and why a similar type, not necessarily the same, will work for most Americans that aren't looking for edge case solutions. My system, Nexia, is a orchestrated, connected home that works very well and it doesn't require me to tinker. I don't tinker and even if I wanted to I don't have the time. I like my system because it is 'set and forget'. 

I'll add that there are people that don't want to install everything themselves but they want a orchestrated, connected home like mine. Those people have a choice of alarm companies that install smart locks, switches, etc. They can also contact a Control4 dealer and get a CA-1 installed. That process maybe more costly upfront than installing things yourself or finding a good deal with an alarm company that'll give you all of the gear you want for about the same price of the CA-1. Obviously, going with the alarm company or DIY will allow for the homeowner to add additional gear later if they see fit without having to contact a dealer. Again, I just want to present new readers with an objective list of options and Control4 does a good job, the CA-1 is definitely a viable option for a lot of people and alarm companies offer a very good connected home solution. 

I will say that I've now added music as part of my mock occupancy scenes, a Nest Hello door bell and created automated scenes that involve the Nest and tvs and alarm system can be apart of all my scenes via Alexa or Google Home. Now that the Google Home allows you to schedule routines, I've created several timed music routines in the Google Home that activate at the same time that the other mock occupancy scenes take place. I have Spotify Premium family plan but you can use another music service. In the Google Home app I've selected Spotify as my default music choice. The music scenes happen in all 10 zones (2 outside and 8 inside) with in-ceiling speakers inside attached to a multi-room amp with 6 Chromecast Audio pucks attached to the amp, Chromecast speakers in the covered outdoor zones, compact Chromecast speakers in the laundry room and the master bedroom closet. Whatever Spotify playlist, artist or podcast I designate will play during the music scenes. I can also have the volume adjust individually in each zone if I choose to do so when the music scenes start. The music scenes end at the times that I've designated for a particular day. If I wanted to wake up to music or a podcast as the lights turns every morning I could activate those scenes with my voice using the Google Home mini. I listen to the Sirius Xm app when I wake up each morning; love Watercolors and Real Jazz. I grab my tablet from the night stand and cast Sirius to every zone. 

The Nest Hello doorbell has been in my home for about 3 months. I have Google Homes and Amazon Alexas' scattered throughout the house. But the Nest Hello works very well with the Google Homes. If some rings the doorbell, whichever Google Home you designate will make an announcement that someone is at the front door. You can also set do not disturb hours on any Google Home. Based on a scene I created in my automation system, when someone rings the Nest doorbell, the avr will switch inputs to the Chromecast input. From there I can say "Hey Google, show the front door and the Nest doorbell video will play on the tv. The scene is limited to my At Home mode so that it doesn't happen when I'm not home.


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## ezlotogura

Tony Vega said:


> Just picked up an EA3 System. Too bad we don't have a dedicated thread with a not so mis-leading title, but I must say, I have been patiently waiting 3+ weeks for my local dealer to install and configure the system.


ha - i've thought about asking the admins to change the title because it is misleading. but not worth the hassle I suppose. A dedicated sticky thread would likely yield the same pros and cons anyways. 

So the dealer wired it up but has not programmed it yet? Have you paid in full (hardware + programming) or just for the hardware? If just for the hardware and it is all wired up, go find a remote dealer to do it for you ASAP.


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## Tony Vega

ezlotogura said:


> ha - i've thought about asking the admins to change the title because it is misleading. but not worth the hassle I suppose. A dedicated sticky thread would likely yield the same pros and cons anyways.
> 
> So the dealer wired it up but has not programmed it yet? Have you paid in full (hardware + programming) or just for the hardware? If just for the hardware and it is all wired up, go find a remote dealer to do it for you ASAP.


I have all the equipment in my possession and paid in full but nothing is installed. It was sort of a package deal with Magnolia with my A8F purchase. Fingers crossed it will get installed soon. I have already reached out to other dealers in my area and the recommendation is that I return it and then re-purchase thru them to honor any service or warranty work.


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## ezlotogura

Tony Vega said:


> I have all the equipment in my possession and paid in full but nothing is installed. It was sort of a package deal with Magnolia with my A8F purchase. Fingers crossed it will get installed soon. I have already reached out to other dealers in my area and the recommendation is that I return it and then re-purchase thru them to honor any service or warranty work.


in general Magnolia gets a bad reputation as a C4 installer/programmer. That is not saying all Magnolia stores/installers are bad, and if you are looking for the basics they can usually handle it but they do not get too creative, use 3rd party drivers, etc - and again this is a generalization.

Not sure who warranty's "work". the hardware has a warranty that follows you. I had a bad experience with my original installer, and I had a piece of hardware go bad, my new dealer was able to get me an RMA to return the device and get a new one even though he did not sell it to me directly.

choice is yours, but long haul I'd find another dealer - local or remote - especially if this is the service you are getting as a new customer. Unless they told you it would take 3-5 weeks for set up, then they set up a proper up front expectation. If they sold it to you and said see you on Monday and its been 3 weeks, yeah you should be upset.


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## Dean Roddey

I imagine this was already pointed out as incorrect but this statement:

"This correct. But I at a base level, the so-called DIY hubs do allow for automation and not just control. I don't want anyone to read this thread and get the impression that they don't. Now, will a DIY hub automate all of the items that a integrator based system can? Certainly not. And I'm not trying to make that case. But for what most Americans would want to automate: lights, HVAC, garage door, door locks, a DIY hub will do those things. "

Software based automation systems like ours (which are not 'hubs' but a lot of people use that term these days in place of 'automation system') can control and automated anything and do anything that any other system can. So, if he meant any DIY or DIY friendly automation system, he was very much incorrect. If by hub he meant something like SmartThings or Wink or some such, then yes, that would tend to be true. If anything a system like ours is considerably more flexible and customizable than something like Control4, certainly in some areas like touch screen UI development.

Our system is more in the 'DIY Friendly' realm, like Lutrons RA2 system. It's designed for pro usage, so it's as powerful and robust as any such system should be, but it's DIY friendly. The combination of our system with RA2 is a fairly common one in fact, because they are well matched in that way.


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## kam.sanghera

ahard said:


> Everything in the post you quoted summarizes my system. What I didn't say in that post is that my system is all Z-wave, excluding some wifi cams connected to my alarm system. Also, I should have said that I'm not trying lift a tv out of the floor, or looking for some other edge case scenario to happen in my home, which is why my system works for me and why a similar type, not necessarily the same, will work for most Americans that aren't looking for edge case solutions. My system, Nexia, is a orchestrated, connected home that works very well and it doesn't require me to tinker. I don't tinker and even if I wanted to I don't have the time. I like my system because it is 'set and forget'.
> 
> I'll add that there are people that don't want to install everything themselves but they want a orchestrated, connected home like mine. Those people have a choice of alarm companies that install smart locks, switches, etc. They can also contact a Control4 dealer and get a CA-1 installed. That process maybe more costly upfront than installing things yourself or finding a good deal with an alarm company that'll give you all of the gear you want for about the same price of the CA-1. Obviously, going with the alarm company or DIY will allow for the homeowner to add additional gear later if they see fit without having to contact a dealer. Again, I just want to present new readers with an objective list of options and Control4 does a good job, the CA-1 is definitely a viable option for a lot of people and alarm companies offer a very good connected home solution.
> 
> I will say that I've now added music as part of my mock occupancy scenes, a Nest Hello door bell and created automated scenes that involve the Nest and tvs and alarm system can be apart of all my scenes via Alexa or Google Home. Now that the Google Home allows you to schedule routines, I've created several timed music routines in the Google Home that activate at the same time that the other mock occupancy scenes take place. I have Spotify Premium family plan but you can use another music service. In the Google Home app I've selected Spotify as my default music choice. The music scenes happen in all 10 zones (2 outside and 8 inside) with in-ceiling speakers inside attached to a multi-room amp with 6 Chromecast Audio pucks attached to the amp, Chromecast speakers in the covered outdoor zones, compact Chromecast speakers in the laundry room and the master bedroom closet. Whatever Spotify playlist, artist or podcast I designate will play during the music scenes. I can also have the volume adjust individually in each zone if I choose to do so when the music scenes start. The music scenes end at the times that I've designated for a particular day. If I wanted to wake up to music or a podcast as the lights turns every morning I could activate those scenes with my voice using the Google Home mini. I listen to the Sirius Xm app when I wake up each morning; love Watercolors and Real Jazz. I grab my tablet from the night stand and cast Sirius to every zone.
> 
> The Nest Hello doorbell has been in my home for about 3 months. I have Google Homes and Amazon Alexas' scattered throughout the house. But the Nest Hello works very well with the Google Homes. If some rings the doorbell, whichever Google Home you designate will make an announcement that someone is at the front door. You can also set do not disturb hours on any Google Home. Based on a scene I created in my automation system, when someone rings the Nest doorbell, the avr will switch inputs to the Chromecast input. From there I can say "Hey Google, show the front door and the Nest doorbell video will play on the tv. The scene is limited to my At Home mode so that it doesn't happen when I'm not home.


Thanks ahard.

How is Nexia when compared to SmartThings or Wink? Would you recommend one over the other? I prefer one with more openness/interactivity with other devices but not at the cost of only providing limited basic controls and unable to create bit complex logic scenarios. The idea is that as DIY, you should be able to build any rule to inter-operate between all the devices connected to it, i.e. Lights, Audio, Video, Doorlocks, Cameras, Blinds etc.

CA-1 looks promising too but it does not control audio/video, so I guess it will not be able to turn on your projector/tv and switch receiver input/output accordingly.

For light controls, do you recommend Insteon, Lutron Casetta or Lutron RA2 Select?

For Audio, I am debating between in-ceiling speakers for whole house (apart from Theatre room and common TV areas) or get Sonos playboars for TVs and Play 5 for bedrooms.


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## ahard

kam.sanghera said:


> Thanks ahard.
> 
> How is Nexia when compared to SmartThings or Wink? Would you recommend one over the other? I prefer one with more openness/interactivity with other devices but not at the cost of only providing limited basic controls and unable to create bit complex logic scenarios. The idea is that as DIY, you should be able to build any rule to inter-operate between all the devices connected to it, i.e. Lights, Audio, Video, Doorlocks, Cameras, Blinds etc.
> 
> CA-1 looks promising too but it does not control audio/video, so I guess it will not be able to turn on your projector/tv and switch receiver input/output accordingly.
> 
> For light controls, do you recommend Insteon, Lutron Casetta or Lutron RA2 Select?
> 
> For Audio, I am debating between in-ceiling speakers for whole house (apart from Theatre room and common TV areas) or get Sonos playboars for TVs and Play 5 for bedrooms.


I don't want to clog this thread up about topics that aren't germane to the thread title. Send me a PM and I'll answer your questions when I have time. You can also check other threads on this board for comparison.


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## Aslan

Just to add a data point. Control4 no longer supports LIFX. The LIFX driver was 3rd party and no longer works and will not be updated. Not good to suddenly have no control over your lighting. Our C4 system becomes more useless and problematic day by day.


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## SMHarman

Aslan said:


> Just to add a data point. Control4 no longer supports LIFX. The LIFX driver was 3rd party and no longer works and will not be updated. Not good to suddenly have no control over your lighting. Our C4 system becomes more useless and problematic day by day.


Annoying but you can just not update.


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## ezlotogura

And did lifx change an API and pull support? I haven’t followed anything about LIFX but it’s rare a change with c4 makes a connection die off. Usually the third party makes a change to an api and you lose the ability to connect. That is why where possible I stick within the c4 ecosystem. I moved off sonos for that reason. C4 didn’t break sonos - sonos did and they lost a customer


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## smoothtlk

Quickly looking - LIFX has a published protocol that looks straightforward. We don't currently support it but could.
Example of when I suggest to pick the control system and THEN the devices (like lighting / security / irrigation / climate control etc).

The Third party isn't supporting their driver anymore?
We tend to not put emphasis on third party drivers for exactly this reason. Some of our competing systems thrive on third party development. But then you have a cluster of different methods, different ways to install, different branding, different support levels and worse - lack of support for changes.


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## ezlotogura

Looks like houselogix wrote that LIFX driver. SnapAV purchased Houselogix and moved most development efforts to their SnapAV stuff like ORVC, etc. Personally if you see something being sold/authored by Houselogix run far.

When people ask me about c4 I always say when and where possible stick native for the best experience. Realize if you go for a non supported 3rd party device it may be broken or support stopped. Some 3rd party items seek out developers to help push sales of their items, and that is a true partnership and its better. Example - Steamist is a steam room system. They sought out a driver developer to make a driver to integrate into Control4. So though its a 3rd party its a better relationship than someone hacking into an API to create a driver but they are not notified of API Changes because they are not a partner. API changes, developer needs to make updates if possible. Good developers who do this for a living will update it - otherwise people stop buying their drivers. Driver company goes out of business - there goes your support. Just like blackberry - they left the market for a long time and if you had a blackberry good luck buying apps, etc. So you had to move to iOS and Android.

Point is, if building from the ground up, look at native c4 solutions or solutions with certified C4 drivers. Use 3rd party drivers sparingly and look for ones with high reviews from quality developers who have been in the game a long time. Most of the quality driver companies are well represented at c4forums.com


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## Aslan

smoothtlk said:


> Example of when I suggest to pick the control system and THEN the devices (like lighting / security / irrigation / climate control etc).


These really go hand in hand, not one before the other. More below.

The issue is that C4 never wrote their own driver for LIFX but instead relied on a 3rd party driver which is no longer available. I believe similar for Phillips HUE except this driver is still available. USAI can be controlled via Lutron but is apparently quite messy. It can also be argued that these companies should write drivers for C4. I'm not sure I care who writes the drivers so long as they are done well and will always work. 

LIFX are brighter and have a higher CRI than Hue. Obviously, Hue are not as bright and have less red/orange so the light from them is rather vacuous like florescent. Hue are OK for deep colors but poor for whites in general and very poor as you go warmer (due to their lacking in the red/orange bit of the spectrum). USAI have a higher CRI than LIFX but also a much higher price. 

USAI have the most reliable control since they are hardwired, Hue is next so long as you have sufficient hubs, LIFX uses WiFi and can be spotty so requires a very heavy mesh of AP's to work reliably. Hue & LIFX are both susceptible to damage from brown-outs, USAI handles them much better. When damaged a Hue lamp usually stops working at all, a LIFX will usually become a full on bright white. 

Light quality is important to us so we will have a combination of USAI (BeveLED 2.2 in Tunable White and RGBAW) and LIFX throughout our house. Which makes C4 a bad option.


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## Aslan

At a macro level (and getting well out of my knowledge zone)... We need a set (lighting, HVAC, Audio, ...) of common industry interfaces that everyone can write to and that will allow every HA system that writes to it support on some level every device that writes to it. Consumers do not want to nor should they have to research to figure out who works with who and how well any of them work - that's quite antiquated. These should also, to the extent possible, allow plug and play capability without requiring a vendor. If Savant and USAI want to go beyond the spec for better control then that's fine and consumers will know that worst case they can always fall back to spec level control.

Homekit may well become the default common interface though we may see a multi-approach of everyone supporting Homekit & Alexa (or Google?). This is unless the HA industry and device people who do not want to become beholden to Apple get their act together and develop a solid industry standard on their own. 

As more stuff supports Homekit (or some other standard) we'll likely also begin to see things like good wall control panels that work with Homekit and eventually the need for a centralized HA system will be subsumed by a bunch of ethernet cables and a configuration screen as the new HA system is distributed among devices that all work well and seamlessly together.


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## TrendSetterX

Aslan said:


> At a macro level (and getting well out of my knowledge zone)... We need a set (lighting, HVAC, Audio, ...) of common industry interfaces that everyone can write to and that will allow every HA system that writes to it support on some level every device that writes to it. Consumers do not want to nor should they have to research to figure out who works with who and how well any of them work - that's quite antiquated. These should also, to the extent possible, allow plug and play capability without requiring a vendor. If Savant and USAI want to go beyond the spec for better control then that's fine and consumers will know that worst case they can always fall back to spec level control.
> 
> 
> 
> Homekit may well become the default common interface though we may see a multi-approach of everyone supporting Homekit & Alexa (or Google?). This is unless the HA industry and device people who do not want to become beholden to Apple get their act together and develop a solid industry standard on their own.
> 
> 
> 
> As more stuff supports Homekit (or some other standard) we'll likely also begin to see things like good wall control panels that work with Homekit and eventually the need for a centralized HA system will be subsumed by a bunch of ethernet cables and a configuration screen as the new HA system is distributed among devices that all work well and seamlessly together.


You’re mixing tech. Alexa/google are voice-enablement of existing control interfaces. They don’t actually control anything. Voice is a replacement/augmentation for a remote control or a touch screen - essentially just another input device. 

As far as HomeKit being more than it is today, it is not nearly ubiquitous enough to be any standard on its own (and Apple doesn’t see enough of a market in home automation - they’d rather create the next self driving car).


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## Dean Roddey

Aslan said:


> At a macro level (and getting well out of my knowledge zone)... We need a set (lighting, HVAC, Audio, ...) of common industry interfaces that everyone can write to and that will allow every HA system that writes to it support on some level every device that writes to it. Consumers do not want to nor should they have to research to figure out who works with who and how well any of them work


That is of course the case, but that's sort of like saying, we need nuclear fusion power. We do, but it ain't so easy. A common interface means that any unique capabilities of those devices are not going to be accessible, by definition since they cannot be part of a common interface that will be applicable to all devices of that type without a hundred ifs, ands, buts and gotchas.

Given that an awful lot of devices that people want to integrate not sold primarily for that purpose, they only allow for it, that means that the vendors of those devices are competing against makers of similar devices. And how do they compete? Features mostly. So they feel like they have to continuously add features, none of which can be available to a standard interface unless everyone else implements them.

The only alternative is a 'standard' that's not really a standard. You can have a standard that has lots of optional bits or option ways of doing something and so forth. But that's not really all that useful to the automation industry. If you are writing specific applications for those types of devices, that's one thing. Written programs can deal with all of the gotchas and options involved.

But in the automation industry, if you want a customized system, it's not written in code, or it shouldn't have to be written in code. Mostly it's created via static configuration that is used to drive the automation system in various automated ways. Otherwise, it requires a software engineer to customize any automation system, and that's not practical nor desirable. These static configuration schemes are not capable of dealing with many variations on a theme. 

So any standard interfaces must be strict and tight. Otherwise they are useless. But they will almost certainly never will be strict or tight. In order to get acceptance by all of the vendors of a given type of device, they will fight over it until it becomes a non-standard standard and useless. And of course it will mean that, even if by some miracle it does remain strict and tight, it will be many years before all these vendors come up with new products that will work within that standard. 

This is all part of my common rant that never really seems to be widely understood. Though it would be nice to have all products use some common on the wire format, that's not the real problem. Automation systems are perfect capable of dealing with various protocols. The problem is the semantic definitions of what IS a thermostat, or a heat pump, or spa controller, or a media player, and so forth. Without those types of standardized definitions, we vendors of automation systems are fairly limited in what we can do for you (if you want something beyond a fancy remote control.)

In our case, in CQC, we have 'device classes' which define standard slices of functionality, Where possible we implement our device drivers to implement these standard interfaces. The benefits are huge for us and our customers. But, it runs into all of the problems above. We do make them strict and tight. But that means no access to bespoke functionality, unless you are willing to deal with it yourself, we can't inherently understand it (what do you mean I can't use the egg timer feature of my thermostat?) And it means that some devices just don't get to play because they are too far off the beaten path (or just too sub-par) to make them fit within our view of that type of device. You can low ball the standards more and more to get more stuff under the umbrella but the cost is that it becomes less and less payoff for having those standards since you can count on less and less functionality being generically available.

When it all works it means that you can pull out one device of a given type and replace it with another and require no to very simple changes to compensate for it. And it allows you to create non-trivial logic or UI components that can coordinate a set of devices to achieve a goal, without having to understand the specifics of the particular devices involved.


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## Aslan

Dean Roddey said:


> Given that an awful lot of devices that people want to integrate not sold primarily for that purpose, they only allow for it, that means that the vendors of those devices are competing against makers of similar devices. And how do they compete? Features mostly. So they feel like they have to continuously add features, none of which can be available to a standard interface unless everyone else implements them.


Yes and no. A base standard is exactly that, a common base from which to build on. A properly developed base standard also allows for standard extensions to deal with future capabilities as well as proprietary extensions. A well done standard is not so limiting as you implied.

I was on the initial DMX body. The base standard specified physical (5 wire w/ 5 pin xlr connectors), electrical and network layers. On top of this then some things were fairly easy; a lighting instrument had a level (dimmer) that simply was 0-100 (actually 0-255). Every dimmer pack or internal dimmer in a fixture could work with this. An instrument could also have color channels so we initially did RGBAW with 000-255 for each. Some could move so we had 000-255 for pan and 000-255 for tilt. These are all common across all instruments. This was later extended to add fpan and ftilt for fine adjustments of these. Some controller manufacturers then used pan & fpan in combination to do 360° control of an instrument in a ddd.xx format.

Varilite was able to add some proprietary channels for their instruments such as gobo_shake (which was eventually included as part of the standard as an extension). At this point you could buy any controller and any instrument and know that some basic set of functions would work reliably such as master level and levels for each of the RGBW channels. This hasn't prevented a manufacturer from adding proprietary features. Someone could easily develop an instrument that dims, pans and tilts using those 3 channels (0-255 each) and they could also have a smoke channel that caused the instrument to smoke so the audience would freak out. No other manufacturer has to have that smoke channel and most will not because they think its totally stupid but whomever wants can do it.

HA is no different. If there was a DMXHA standard then a consumer could know that they can buy a LIFX lamp and a Hue lamp and an Anthem receiver and Samsung TV and know that they would all work with any HA controller that also supports DMXHA. Turn on a new LIFX lamp and the HA controller says 'hey, I see a new LIFX lamp' and asks you to name it and tell you where it is and then its available for use. If the HA system is done well then that lamp will automatically appear on the control panels in whatever room it's in. The user can add it to lighting scenes so that it comes on when someone enters the room.


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## Dean Roddey

The issue isn't whether standards can be developed to be extended. They can, and that's fine. The issue is that once you really get into trying to come up with standards for various types of devices (just worrying about what's going to initially be in it), then you quickly realize that there's so much variation in many categories that it's difficult to come up with something that isn't such a low bar that it's almost useless (not enough standard functionality) or that is very useful but the bar is too high to get a lot of commonly used devices in that category to comply with it.

And it's fine if there's functionality outside of the standard, but a lot of what would be outside of the standard would be stuff that many people will have bought that particular device in order to use. If it's not available via the automation system in a way they can manage (i.e. easily), then they may not want to get involved with automating their stuff. It can still be automated of course, but it's now a manual effort, and the fact is that very few people will do that. It will be primarily limited to custom installations done by professionals. The automation system itself will not be able to understand and encompass that functionality on its own.

So it's a fine line to walk and difficult to deal with. The Nest is a perfect example. It has a bunch of functionality that can't be supported within a standard that is also going to include various other thermostats. It does no good to have a standard that says, well this stuff CAN be done, but doesn't have to be. Now you have a situation where you can no longer take thermostat X out and put in thermostat Y and have it all still work, because the system may have been written such that it's dependent on functionality that thermostat Y doesn't have. That undermines the primary purpose of having such a standard. And it leaves it up to the system implementer to understand all of the possible variations that might exist, which is also not desirable. This isn't a standard like UPnP (a very loose standard) which is primarily oriented towards being implemented (in code) in a device once and done. Automation systems are typically not customized via code and therefore cannot automatically adapt to this or that option piece of functionality. And the person doing the customization is not a programmer or an expert in the variations of thermostats or heat pumps and how to guard against potential change in the future.

A strict standard avoids those issues, but comes back around to the above, i.e. no standard access to potentially lots of bespoke functionality, you have to manually deal with it and possibly make radical changes later if you change gear, etc...


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## Aslan

Dean Roddey said:


> So it's a fine line to walk and difficult to deal with. The Nest is a perfect example. It has a bunch of functionality that can't be supported within a standard that is also going to include various other thermostats. It does no good to have a standard that says, well this stuff CAN be done, but doesn't have to be.


Give me a specific example.


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## TrendSetterX

We already have SDDP (Simple Device Discovery Protocol). It really wouldn’t take much to expand SDDP to provide common control interfaces which would then make it a matter of plug and play (for basic/common functionality for a given type of device). The problem comes in convincing IoT manufacturers to use SDDP instead of creating their own APIs.


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## smoothtlk

Does LIFX bulbs support DMX?
Several HA systems including myServer support DMX.
This is a little bit of my point when I suggested the Master Controller is picked first, then then devices.
And you can't do both at the same time because of the impossible number of combinations / permutations you would never be in a position to get anything.
I am kinda surprised if C4 doesn't also support DMX without 3rd party drivers involved.


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## TrendSetterX

Dean Roddey said:


> The Nest is a perfect example.


No, actually, the Nest thermostat is a terrible example. A thermostat is essentially a glorified remote control for an HVAC system. For a TV, would you want/expect an automation system to control the TV or the remote? It’s the former. Likewise with thermostats, one should never actually see that kind of wall acne because the automation system should be controlling the HVAC directly (and not through some other abstracted interface).


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## smoothtlk

"Likewise with thermostats, one should never actually see that kind of wall acne because the automation system should be controlling the HVAC directly (and not through some other abstracted interface).
"

In a perfect world, maybe.
We tend to like systems designed for a particular task to do those tasks - like security systems, thermostats, Z-Wave networks, etc.
The control system then ideally bi-directionally gets status and higher level control over the subsystem.

This then provides the blend of expertise and reliability for the specialized function, yet allowing the individual subsystems to interact in a controlled way.

Re: thermostats - yes, an automation system can replace the need for the thermostat user interface to be exposed to eye sight. But the need for in -room measurement and the logic of controlling heatpump, furnace, zone control, time delay for compressor kickon, coordination of fan / pump activity etc. is best handled by a specialized device like a "thermostat".

We automated a mansion in Aspen years ago that had an "Echelon" HVAC system. Basically a whole bunch of relays. The logic was moved to the control system. Took months of programming. So, yes, it is possible, and never want to do that again. It was basically a miss by the Integrator knowing "it's possible" without thinking out whats "practical". A commercial quality HVAC controller should have been put inbetween the Echelon relays, and the Home Master Controller. A HVAC controller that already has those "rules" and HVAC "understanding" built in firmware.

We routinely suggest the thermostat and the alarm keypad be located in a closet near the living area where it classically would be located and the automation system's user interface (that can be pictures of your kids inbetween uses as a control system) take the more prominent position on the wall that you see and interact with.


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## Dean Roddey

TrendSetterX said:


> We already have SDDP (Simple Device Discovery Protocol). It really wouldn’t take much to expand SDDP to provide common control interfaces which would then make it a matter of plug and play (for basic/common functionality for a given type of device). The problem comes in convincing IoT manufacturers to use SDDP instead of creating their own APIs.


That has little to do with solving the problem, which I've spent a lot of time typing above.


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## Dean Roddey

Aslan said:


> Give me a specific example.


The nest exposes different set points for each thermostat mode. In a normal thermostat, you should be able to set the high and low set point at any time. But you can't do that with the nest because the only set points exposed are the ones for the current mode. That's a fundamental difference that immediately starts messing with an attempt to come up with a generic interface. And there's no fan control, at least via the control protocol, which is typically always available. And it has an 'eco' mode that works very differently from the other modes.

These things can be worked around with sufficient fiddling, but it's messy and sometimes sort of dangerous since the automation system has to take on functionality that really should be done by the thermostat. And of course it still means those Nest specific features would not be supportable by a generic interface, hence for the majority of people making them unsupported by the automation system.


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## Dean Roddey

TrendSetterX said:


> No, actually, the Nest thermostat is a terrible example. A thermostat is essentially a glorified remote control for an HVAC system. For a TV, would you want/expect an automation system to control the TV or the remote? It’s the former. Likewise with thermostats, one should never actually see that kind of wall acne because the automation system should be controlling the HVAC directly (and not through some other abstracted interface).


Again, completely unrelated to what I was talking about. It has nothing to do with where the control is done from, it's about how an automation system understands what a thermostat is such that it can automatically deal with them, or help you in many ways implement automation logic for them.


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## TrendSetterX

Dean Roddey said:


> That has little to do with solving the problem, which I've spent a lot of time typing above.


It completely solves the problem, actually. Except for the fact that consumer IP networks are generally crap and the only sure fire way of consistent control is IR or RS232 or RS485


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## TrendSetterX

Dean Roddey said:


> Again, completely unrelated to what I was talking about. It has nothing to do with where the control is done from, it's about how an automation system understands what a thermostat is such that it can automatically deal with them, or help you in many ways implement automation logic for them.


Congrats, you just described the function of SDDP.


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## Dean Roddey

TrendSetterX said:


> Congrats, you just described the function of SDDP.


You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem. That's just the most basic part of the solution to the problems we have in the HA world. I spent a lot of time explaining why above. Maybe read that.


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## Dean Roddey

TrendSetterX said:


> It completely solves the problem, actually. Except for the fact that consumer IP networks are generally crap and the only sure fire way of consistent control is IR or RS232 or RS485


No, again, you don't understand the issue. It's not HOW you talk to the device. It's how you understand the device you are talking to. That's the real problem.


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## TrendSetterX

Dean Roddey said:


> You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem. That's just the most basic part of the solution to the problems we have in the HA world. I spent a lot of time explaining why above. Maybe read that.


 I write commercial drivers for some of the larger HA manufacturers. I know a little bit about what I’m talking about. You tend to over-simplify the complex things and over-complicate the simple things.


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## Dean Roddey

Well, if we are comparing credentials, I'm the author of one of the most powerful automation systems out there, CQC, and I've been immersed in these types of issues for almost two decades now. And I'm not over-complicating it. We've spent a few years working out these issues of how to define generic interfaces for various types of devices of slices of functionality, and it gets very messy. If you want to make the implementation of automation systems easier, it's got little to do with what communications conduit is used. Automation systems are quite capable of dealing with that. It's a little annoying, but it's not the real problem.

If you want to make it easier to set up automation systems, then those automation systems have to have a fundamental understanding of what a thermostat, pool controller, TV, media player, and so forth is and what functionality it provides and how to access that functionality, exactly how it reacts, and so forth. It has to know what the states of a security zone mean, what the states of a media player mean, how to set thermostat set points and when that's legal to do so, what the forecast data of a weather service means, what the media type of the newly selected media means, and all those types of details that otherwise have to be done manually, and in a device specific way to various degrees.

Without that, there's no hope of making things better. Doing that requires coming up with semantic definitions of everything about the device that is going to be exposed in a consistent way for all devices of that type. That provides for three fundamental capabilities:

1. The automation system can do a lot for you
2. You can swap out gear with minimal disruption or change
3. You can create generic logic and UIs that will work with any device of that type, without having to write code to do it, which is a core requirement (we aren't talking drivers here, we are talking automation system customization.)

We have put in a lot of time to create such a set of 'device classes' for a fairly reasonable breadth of devices, such that they can be applied to as many devices of that type as is reasonable without making the class definition useless or full of ifs, ands, and buts. If you think it's easy, you just haven't tried it. And without them, we couldn't do a lot of what we do. AND, if these types of definitions were truly widely supported, we could do a lot more.


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## ezlotogura

C4 and other 3rd party companies will make a driver based on demand. The demand for LIFX must be minimal which is why no one picked it up when houselogix stopped their support. 

Good luck getting 10,000’s of companies to get together on one standard. That is where automation systems shine - they can deal with thousands of devices but not everything under the sun.


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## Dean Roddey

And there are serious issues with depending on third parties for drivers, as that demonstrates and various other companies have. We take the approach that drivers are enablers, not sources of revenues. So almost all of our drivers are done in our CML language, which is a compiled on the fly language, so the drivers are shipped as source. And some are in our even simpler PDL language, also as source. That means they can't go away really. We do a small handful of the most complex ones in C++, but that's it. And they only way they would go away, since we write them, is if we went away, in which case the driver going away would be a moot issue.

That does of course reduce the incentive for third parties to write drivers, since they cannot profit from them; but, in the end we feel like it's the better approach. 

And it also obviously means that the price of the product isn't obscured by the fact that, after you buy it, you have to then buy a bunch of third party software to make it actually work. Once you purchase the product, all drivers are available to you (though we do tier the product in terms of number of drivers you can load.)


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## Aslan

ezlotogura said:


> Good luck getting 10,000’s of companies to get together on one standard. That is where automation systems shine - they can deal with thousands of devices but not everything under the sun.


Shine? That's like a mechanic screwing up your car doing a simple oil change and then saying that for only $3,000 and $49.99/mo they'll fix it. This may be where the HA manufacturers make a tiny bit of dim light today but is where they will be dark tomorrow. 

The HA industry is microscopic compared to what it would be if it would shed its antiquated ways of doing things. Consumers are confused by it, scared of it, and shy away from it. Saying that HA shines because it glosses over it's own antiquated inadequacies is nuts.

A standard will come forth. The only question is who will define that standard. The industry through ANSI or Apple? (or Google or Amazon as long shots).


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## ezlotogura

Aslan said:


> ezlotogura said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck getting 10,000’s of companies to get together on one standard. That is where automation systems shine - they can deal with thousands of devices but not everything under the sun.
> 
> 
> 
> Shine? That's like a mechanic screwing up your car doing a simple oil change and then saying that for only $3,000 and $49.99/mo they'll fix it. This may be where the HA manufacturers make a tiny bit of dim light today but is where they will be dark tomorrow.
> 
> The HA industry is microscopic compared to what it would be if it would shed its antiquated ways of doing things. Consumers are confused by it, scared of it, and shy away from it. Saying that HA shines because it glosses over it's own antiquated inadequacies is nuts.
> 
> A standard will come forth. The only question is who will define that standard. The industry through ANSI or Apple? (or Google or Amazon as long shots).
Click to expand...

And this is where you lose credibility. Apple is a super closed ecosystem compared to google. If someone would adopt a standard I’d bet on google. 

Apple standard. Thunderbolt instead of USB caught on like wildfire!!

You referred to home kit earlier no? Must be an Apple fan boy. Oh and I use a Mac and 2 iOS devices. I’m not anti Apple but HomeKit is a joke. They have tried to open HomeKit development. HomeKit was announced in 2014 and here are all compatible devices per apples website https://www.apple.com/shop/accessories/all-accessories/homekit

We will have to wait until 2075 to maybe get far enough along to cover the 10,000’s of devices the big players in home automation can cover with their systems. 

Good luck waiting on Apple to define an industry standard. I’ll enjoy my automated home until that time. By 2075 I’ll be up for a system refresh anyways


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## Aslan

I started a new thread for the general standards discussion that is not C4 focused.


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## Dean Roddey

Aslan said:


> Shine? That's like a mechanic screwing up your car doing a simple oil change and then saying that for only $3,000 and $49.99/mo they'll fix it. This may be where the HA manufacturers make a tiny bit of dim light today but is where they will be dark tomorrow.
> 
> The HA industry is microscopic compared to what it would be if it would shed its antiquated ways of doing things. Consumers are confused by it, scared of it, and shy away from it. Saying that HA shines because it glosses over it's own antiquated inadequacies is nuts.
> 
> A standard will come forth. The only question is who will define that standard. The industry through ANSI or Apple? (or Google or Amazon as long shots).


You again have a misunderstanding of the situation. The vast majority of complaints along this line have nothing at all to do with the home automation industry. The HA industry IS indeed small, relative to the mass of companies that make the things out there to be controlled. Those are the companies you have to convince. The HA controller companies like us will use what's available, and you are preaching to the choir when you complain about these things to us.

If you want this situation to change you have convince Sony, Zen-Sys, Apple, GE, Ford, Samsung, Amazon, and thousands of other companies from that size down to the one man shop to adopt a standard. Well, first you have to HAVE a standard, then you have to convince them to adopt it. But they won't adopt it if they aren't part of defining it. And, if they are part of defining it, it becomes a huge political operation that will create a standard that is so loose and compromised that it won't have been worth the effort most likely.

There's no one out there big enough to define a standard and force it down everyone's throats, and which happens to actually have the common sense and expertise to create good standard that would be remotely acceptable if they were able to force it. 

So you, as many people do, have the cart before the horse. The HA industry cannot do anything about this because we are a fraction of a percent the size of the companies that would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into accepting such a thing.


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## mod220

ezlotogura said:


> And this is where you lose credibility. Apple is a super closed ecosystem compared to google. If someone would adopt a standard I’d bet on google.
> 
> Apple standard. Thunderbolt instead of USB caught on like wildfire!!
> 
> You referred to home kit earlier no? Must be an Apple fan boy. Oh and I use a Mac and 2 iOS devices. I’m not anti Apple but HomeKit is a joke. They have tried to open HomeKit development. HomeKit was announced in 2014 and here are all compatible devices per apples website https://www.apple.com/shop/accessories/all-accessories/homekit
> 
> We will have to wait until 2075 to maybe get far enough along to cover the 10,000’s of devices the big players in home automation can cover with their systems.
> 
> Good luck waiting on Apple to define an industry standard. I’ll enjoy my automated home until that time. By 2075 I’ll be up for a system refresh anyways


As someone who is having a hard time going with C4 right now, given the cost ($0) of homekit and how clean and easy it is to use for basic automation (clearly C4 is far superior in advanced automation), I'm always baffled when I see the pro-C4 team talk about the "10,000 devices" available. How many of the 10,000 devices do you have in your home? Reality is most people have 2-3 garage doors, 3-4 exterior locks, use the remote for TV/AVR control, how many products are really needed for an ecosystem to be viable?


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## ezlotogura

mod220 said:


> As someone who is having a hard time going with C4 right now, given the cost ($0) of homekit and how clean and easy it is to use for basic automation (clearly C4 is far superior in advanced automation), I'm always baffled when I see the pro-C4 team talk about the "10,000 devices" available. How many of the 10,000 devices do you have in your home? Reality is most people have 2-3 garage doors, 3-4 exterior locks, use the remote for TV/AVR control, how many products are really needed for an ecosystem to be viable?


One typical example of when my housekeeper comes over. She enters 1 code on a door keypad. I get a text she arrived. Door unlocks. Alarm goes off. Music turns on in all rooms to her favorite channel. Lights turn on. When she leaves she presses 1 button, lock on the door. All doors lock. Alarm goes back on. Music turns off. Lights go off. And I get a text she left. And I get a text at 6pm to remind me to run the washing machine to clean the rags she left behind. Or how about when my doorbell rings and I’m watching any TV in the house I get a live video feed via PiP. Or how about when my alarm goes off my TV will turn on in the master bedroom is it’s between 9pm and 8am and put up a screen on the TV with all of my security cameras.

These examples involve a handful of IP Cameras, Panasonic/Samsung TVs, NuHeat flooring, Sonos, Kwikset and lighting control. not 10,000s of items, in fact, rather common items. Homekit cannot provide that experience. Home kit is free, c4 isnt. I would not expect them to be competitors which you are trying to make them be competitors. And you keep talking about homekit - IFTTT is more powerful than homekit and it is free too. So why not go and rip homekit when you can go IFTTT?

Homekit has been around for 4 years and its mostly light bulbs, tstats and door locks with a few window sensors. If that works for you then that is fine. But right now, today, homekit is mostly about control, not automation of the entire house. Given the pace of growth in the last 4 years, I'd be shocked if it replaces c4 or other larger systems in the next few years. Apple has been talking about making a TV with AppleTV baked in, and they have talked about autonomous cars. I am still waiting.


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## ahard

ezlotogura said:


> One typical example of when my housekeeper comes over. She enters 1 code on a door keypad. I get a text she arrived. Door unlocks. Alarm goes off. Music turns on in all rooms to her favorite channel. Lights turn on. When she leaves she presses 1 button, lock on the door. All doors lock. Alarm goes back on. Music turns off. Lights go off. And I get a text she left. And I get a text at 6pm to remind me to run the washing machine to clean the rags she left behind. Or how about when my doorbell rings and I’m watching any TV in the house I get a live video feed via PiP. Or how about when my alarm goes off my TV will turn on in the master bedroom is it’s between 9pm and 8am and put up a screen on the TV with all of my security cameras.
> 
> These examples involve a handful of IP Cameras, Panasonic/Samsung TVs, NuHeat flooring, Sonos, Kwikset and lighting control. not 10,000s of items, in fact, rather common items. Homekit cannot provide that experience. Home kit is free, c4 isnt. I would not expect them to be competitors which you are trying to make them be competitors. And you keep talking about homekit - IFTTT is more powerful than homekit and it is free too. So why not go and rip homekit when you can go IFTTT?
> 
> Homekit has been around for 4 years and its mostly light bulbs, tstats and door locks with a few window sensors. If that works for you then that is fine. But right now, today, homekit is mostly about control, not automation of the entire house. Given the pace of growth in the last 4 years, I'd be shocked if it replaces c4 or other larger systems in the next few years. Apple has been talking about making a TV with AppleTV baked in, and they have talked about autonomous cars. I am still waiting.


This. Homekit is for really simple and basic home control for those individuals that want to stay in the Apple ecosystem. As mentioned IFTTT is way more powerful than Homekit. And if you combine IFTTT with SmartThings, Wink or Nexia hubs, which are the only DIY hubs that integrate with IFTTT, the alarm companies don't even integrate with IFTTT, you could have a system that blows away anything Homekit could offer. Homekit is an afterthought for those that want a automated connected home system.


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## SMHarman

mod220 said:


> As someone who is having a hard time going with C4 right now, given the cost ($0) of homekit and how clean and easy it is to use for basic automation (clearly C4 is far superior in advanced automation), I'm always baffled when I see the pro-C4 team talk about the "10,000 devices" available. How many of the 10,000 devices do you have in your home? Reality is most people have 2-3 garage doors, 3-4 exterior locks, use the remote for TV/AVR control, how many products are really needed for an ecosystem to be viable?


Huh, confused, get homekit in your home. Then buy new locks, tvs, audio, pool controller that work with home kit.

Get C4. Install drivers that support your existing devices. 

Neither is free


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## smoothtlk

"How many of the 10,000 devices do you have in your home? Reality is most people have 2-3 garage doors, 3-4 exterior locks, use the remote for TV/AVR control, how many products are really needed for an ecosystem to be viable?"

If the consumer buys the control system first (C4, myServer, CQC, Homeseer, Homekit, etc) and THEN the devices for their home from the list of supported devices of that control system, then they don't need the variety. The problem is people don't do things in a planned, engineered way. They buy X and wonder why it's not supported by the control system they buy three years later. So, that's where the broad coverage of competing device support comes in that you have a chance that your X is covered within the "10,000 devices". Also, when you go shopping for a device for a given purpose, the 10,000 devices gives you some choice of which lighting technology / device do you want: Z-Wave, X10, Vantage, Lutron Casetta, RadioRa2, Homekit, UPB, WiFi and bluetooth one off flavors, etc. 
All at different price points, features, aesthetics, availability, reliability, connectivity methods etc.

But No control system covers "all". Even if it supports "10,000" devices (I bet there are way more IR devices than that). So, if there is a thought that "hey, controlling that light was useful, I want to do more", then the early you decide on a capable automation platform, the less rebuy / rework you will need to do.

And Homekit has very little support of devices in general for a "major" player. Well, not major in automation, but in general as a trillion dollar company.


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## Dean Roddey

I'd also be willing to bet that a large amount of those 10K devices supported are very minimal support. I know how much work it takes to write a really full featured driver for pretty much any non-trivial device. 10K of those types of drivers is beyond the scope of a company the size of C4, unless they want to make that their sole purpose in life and are willing to spend vast amounts of money to make it happen. Plus of course you would have to have all those devices in a lab and have a very elaborate testing setup to insure that they stayed correct over firmware and version updates of those devices, since the devices themselves don't stay still over time.

Probably a LOT of those are just IR control, which isn't much to brag about. A bunch more are maybe one way control, which is also of fairly minimal value, though of course better than nothing.


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## SMHarman

Dean Roddey said:


> I'd also be willing to bet that a large amount of those 10K devices supported are very minimal support. I know how much work it takes to write a really full featured driver for pretty much any non-trivial device. 10K of those types of drivers is beyond the scope of a company the size of C4, unless they want to make that their sole purpose in life and are willing to spend vast amounts of money to make it happen. Plus of course you would have to have all those devices in a lab and have a very elaborate testing setup to insure that they stayed correct over firmware and version updates of those devices, since the devices themselves don't stay still over time.
> 
> Probably a LOT of those are just IR control, which isn't much to brag about. A bunch more are maybe one way control, which is also of fairly minimal value, though of course better than nothing.


You also get the multiplier when say all Sony ip avr s use the same driver.


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## dbone1026

How well does C4 work with non C4 light switches? I want to start upgrading the switches in my house. I have C4 set up in my home theater but nowhere else in the house. I had my C4 installer drop off a few C4 dimmer switches for me to install in a few bedrooms, but honestly at $180 a switch, I just can't justify spending that kind of money (especially given how many switches I would like to replace eventually). I was looking at something like the GE Z-Wave Dimmer Switch which is significantly cheaper.


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## ezlotogura

dbone1026 said:


> How well does C4 work with non C4 light switches? I want to start upgrading the switches in my house. I have C4 set up in my home theater but nowhere else in the house. I had my C4 installer drop off a few C4 dimmer switches for me to install in a few bedrooms, but honestly at $180 a switch, I just can't justify spending that kind of money (especially given how many switches I would like to replace eventually). I was looking at something like the GE Z-Wave Dimmer Switch which is significantly cheaper.


what is your main controller? an HC or an EA? The EA series has a dongle you can buy that opens up some ZWave devices natively. otherwise Lutron is a fairly popular option that runs side by side with C4. others use a Vera hub and those Zwave compatible devices. so I think you got a few non C4 options. I believe Vantage works too.

re: the native Zwave support:
Control4 OS 2.9 includes support for Z-Wave wireless technology to expand support for Control4’s already large ecosystem of devices. The initial support will be for 13 devices that communicate to the controller through the Z-Wave Module and Z-Wave USB Dongle

Z-Wave support is available to EA controllers through the Control4 Z-Wave Module (C4-ZWU/E/H) attached to the Z-Wave USB Dongle (C4-ZWDUSB). You must connect the Z-Wave USB Dongle to an EA controller and the controller running Director in your project must be an EA controller. (You can connect the dongle to a secondary EA controller if your primary controller is an EA controller.) Currently you can only have one Z-Wave mesh per project.

You can use any combination of these devices for a max total of 50 devices per mesh. The drivers below are available in the Online Driver Database:

Aeotec Z-Wave Water Sensor
Aeotec Z-Wave Recessed Door Sensor Gen5
Aeotec Z-Wave Door/Window Sensor
Aeotec Z-Wave Siren
Aeotec Z-Wave Range Extender/Repeater (see note below)
FortrezZ Z-Wave Water Sensor • GE Z-Wave ZW1001 In-Wall Outlet
Leviton Z-WaveIn-wall VRR15 Decora Receptacle
Leviton Z-Wave DZPD3 Lamp Dimmer Module
Leviton Z-Wave VRPA1 Appliance Module
Leviton Z-Wave DZPA1 Appliance ModuleSomfy
Z-Wave® Digital Motor Interface ZDMI
Somfy Glydea® Z-Wave® Plug-In Module

Now I'll continue with my own thoughts - the c4 light switches are more expensive but:
1) less programming is needed
2) less dongles/hubs/3rd party drivers are needed
3) they increase your zigbee mesh so you get better coverage around your house
4) they can work off single, double or triple taps - even forgetting about using keypads. so even a normal dimmer/switch gives you single, double or triple tap commands on the top button, then the same on the bottom button. so a regular switch can give you 6 functions off the bat. as an example a simple light switch. single tap turns it on, double tap would put it at 50%, triple tap maybe 33%. in a bathroom you could tie a double or triple tap into turning on a air vent for 10 mins, etc. 
5) when you add a hub or a driver, it may be cloud based (or not) but it still adds 1 more layer for processing, speed, reaction time, etc. for a simple light it may not be significant but it is something to consider

so yes the intial price is high, consider the benefits and features and think of it less as an on/off switch and more about the features you get for the $180 - multiple button options, backlight engraved labels, increased zigbee, easier programming (less dealer time/$$), less 3rd party drivers/hubs/dongles (again save $$), etc

hope that helps a bit.


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## dbone1026

Thanks for the response @ezlotogura

I have an EA controller.

I guess I am still on the fence as to whether or not I want to expand my C4 setup. Right now since it is just set up in my HT, I have only had limited use of C4 (operating HT equipment and lighting in the room). I guess for how I have used C4 so far, I am not terribly impressed, so I keep going back and forth about whether or not to expand C4 in my house. I don't mind spending the money per se, but within reason (i.e. a smart switch for my bedroom so I can turn the lights on/off via Alexa and control if we are away on vacation, if that is all I really need then $180 on a switch is overkill IMO). 

Will keep researching and kicking myself in the head as I change my mind a million times lol.


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## dbone1026

Thanks for the response @ezlotogura

I have an EA controller.

I guess I am still on the fence as to whether or not I want to expand my C4 setup. Right now since it is just set up in my HT, I have only had limited use of C4 (operating HT equipment and lighting in the room). I guess for how I have used C4 so far, I am not terribly impressed, so I keep going back and forth about whether or not to expand C4 in my house. I don't mind spending the money per se, but within reason (i.e. a smart switch for my bedroom so I can turn the lights on/off via Alexa and control if we are away on vacation, if that is all I really need then $180 on a switch is overkill IMO). 

Will keep researching and kicking myself in the head as I change my mind a million times lol.


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## SMHarman

dbone1026 said:


> Thanks for the response @ezlotogura
> 
> I have an EA controller.
> 
> I guess I am still on the fence as to whether or not I want to expand my C4 setup. Right now since it is just set up in my HT, I have only had limited use of C4 (operating HT equipment and lighting in the room). I guess for how I have used C4 so far, I am not terribly impressed, so I keep going back and forth about whether or not to expand C4 in my house. I don't mind spending the money per se, but within reason (i.e. a smart switch for my bedroom so I can turn the lights on/off via Alexa and control if we are away on vacation, if that is all I really need then $180 on a switch is overkill IMO).
> 
> Will keep researching and kicking myself in the head as I change my mind a million times lol.


C4 switches are super reliable. Another plan here is to buy a bunch on eBay. Gen2 switches and dimmers are $40 up. These are great for those other rooms and then you spend on the primary rooms. 

A remote dealer can then add those rooms and devices. They will also then update the firmware as part of that join to your system. 

You'll be on the phone with them tapping the top and bottom of the switch to disconnect and discover / connect to your system.


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## ezlotogura

dbone1026 said:


> Thanks for the response @ezlotogura
> 
> I have an EA controller.
> 
> I guess I am still on the fence as to whether or not I want to expand my C4 setup. Right now since it is just set up in my HT, I have only had limited use of C4 (operating HT equipment and lighting in the room). I guess for how I have used C4 so far, I am not terribly impressed, so I keep going back and forth about whether or not to expand C4 in my house. I don't mind spending the money per se, but within reason (i.e. a smart switch for my bedroom so I can turn the lights on/off via Alexa and control if we are away on vacation, if that is all I really need then $180 on a switch is overkill IMO).
> 
> Will keep researching and kicking myself in the head as I change my mind a million times lol.


yeah it is a long process for some to reach something they desire as their end goal. If all you are doing is turning a TV on and off or turning a light off because you forgot to when you left your house, C4 is overkill. those two examples are control, not automation. with automation you wouldn't have to remember to turn off the lights because it would automatically adjust to your location, time of day, status of your alarm system, etc. when my alarm knows I am not home (its engaged, on) the lighting schemes handle themselves. so i do not have to even look to see ooops did I turn it off.

Automation vs Control. do not confuse the two concepts. Control4 is an automation system, that is where it shines. I've given several complex examples in these forums over the last 20 pages. I can repeat myself if you want those examples if you have not previously read them. 

Over the last 5 years my interactions with my light switches is almost nothing due to automation with various sensors, timers, programs, schedules, etc. We are doing some big renovations right now and even my wife agrees, we are adding C4 switches in areas where we did not add them a few years ago. She loves them for what its worth.


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## ezlotogura

oh I left off another bonus to the c4 lighting - the programmable LED lights. the newer lights have 2 LED lights on the switches/dimmers. they are programmable. so as an example, when my alarm is armed to stay that means no motion beams are on, so i can be in the house, just cannot open the front door or windows (that would set off the alarm). during this setting, the bottom LED on every light in my house is red. its a great reminder because by each door I have anywhere from 1-3 c4 switches. so before opening the door I can see its red, go duh, and turn off the alarm. When I first got my dog this happened 2-3x to my wife and I. sleepy, wake up, forget alarm was on, and set off alarm. we programmed the LEDs and now havent set off the alarm once. I also have some holiday programming around the LEDs to be green/red during xmas time and black/orange during halloween. 

and re: the multi tap feature, lets say you have c4 audio in the house, and you want to call the family to dinner. you can double press the down button on a c4 switch in the kitchen and you can send out a prerecorded WAV/MP3 file on the home audio system saying dinner is ready. 

your options are limitless honestly. a good dealer or a creative mind and you can think of a million uses for these little things. is it worth it? is it something you will use? that is your call. but again as a simple on/off switch with app control yes its expensive, but when you see all it can do, its not as expensive.


----------



## freeoscar

if you decide to switch from Control4 to another automation platform, what happens to the light switches? Can they be controlled by any zigbee-enabled controller, or are they locked in to C4?


----------



## ezlotogura

freeoscar said:


> if you decide to switch from Control4 to another automation platform, what happens to the light switches? Can they be controlled by any zigbee-enabled controller, or are they locked in to C4?


as far as i know, c4 light switches are locked to c4 because they have their own flavor of zigbee. maybe someone did some reverse engineering, I am up to date with the c4 platform. that being said, if you remove the c4 controller, the c4 switches and dimmers are still normal switches and dimmers. you lose the "smart" functions but they will still turn lights on and off and control the loads to where they are attached.

That said, if you leave Crestron or Savant or anyone else their hardware (switches, controllers, video matrix, etc) are all much harder to use in another platform.

that is a pro to using lutron or something not tied to c4, you can use it in various systems, you are just a bit more limited sometimes in control, options, styles, functions, etc.

every decision has its pros and cons.


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## SMHarman

ezlotogura said:


> as far as i know, c4 light switches are locked to c4 because they have their own flavor of zigbee. maybe someone did some reverse engineering, I am up to date with the c4 platform. that being said, if you remove the c4 controller, the c4 switches and dimmers are still normal switches and dimmers. you lose the "smart" functions but they will still turn lights on and off and control the loads to where they are attached.
> 
> That said, if you leave Crestron or Savant or anyone else their hardware (switches, controllers, video matrix, etc) are all much harder to use in another platform.
> 
> that is a pro to using lutron or something not tied to c4, you can use it in various systems, you are just a bit more limited sometimes in control, options, styles, functions, etc.
> 
> every decision has its pros and cons.


They are locked but using an If that then to trigger in or out and with Alexa type connectivity you could relatively easily leave the lighting on C4 and move everything else to a new automation system. 

I have C4 panelized lighting and DMX controlled lighting in my apartment. The next owner will have to live with a C4 HC or EA in the apartment or the lights won't work. 

That said, a baseline setup will run flawlessly on an HC250 and 2.10 forever.


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## bairdmj

You can also use Lutron RA2/RA2 Select/Caseta with C4. It just requires "double" programming (Lutron (easy and you can do it yourself) and C4 (dealer). They also don't give you the benefit of the Zigbee mesh/double-triple tap, but the integration works very well.


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## dbone1026

ezlotogura said:


> yeah it is a long process for some to reach something they desire as their end goal. If all you are doing is turning a TV on and off or turning a light off because you forgot to when you left your house, C4 is overkill. those two examples are control, not automation. with automation you wouldn't have to remember to turn off the lights because it would automatically adjust to your location, time of day, status of your alarm system, etc. when my alarm knows I am not home (its engaged, on) the lighting schemes handle themselves. so i do not have to even look to see ooops did I turn it off.
> 
> Automation vs Control. do not confuse the two concepts. Control4 is an automation system, that is where it shines. I've given several complex examples in these forums over the last 20 pages. I can repeat myself if you want those examples if you have not previously read them.
> 
> Over the last 5 years my interactions with my light switches is almost nothing due to automation with various sensors, timers, programs, schedules, etc. We are doing some big renovations right now and even my wife agrees, we are adding C4 switches in areas where we did not add them a few years ago. She loves them for what its worth.


Appreciate the insight, and definitely the idea of differentiating b/w control and automation. For example, as of now I don't need much, if any automation (probably the only exception being the few times no one is home during the evening/night which is rare), in particular in the manner of which you use it above.

Even if I look at my limited use of C4 currently to operate my HT, I can say that my Harmony hub setups in two other rooms work better, so you can understand my hesitance when it comes to investing any more time/money into C4. 

I decided to pick up a Samsung SmartThings Hub and 3 GE Zwave dimmer switches. Figured all this in total came out to the cost of 1 C4 dimmer switch, so it would be worth testing out first to figure out what fits my needs best. It is good to know that since I do have an EA controller, C4 may still end up being the route i go down the road.


----------



## ezlotogura

dbone1026 said:


> Appreciate the insight, and definitely the idea of differentiating b/w control and automation. For example, as of now I don't need much, if any automation (probably the only exception being the few times no one is home during the evening/night which is rare), in particular in the manner of which you use it above.
> 
> Even if I look at my limited use of C4 currently to operate my HT, I can say that my Harmony hub setups in two other rooms work better, so you can understand my hesitance when it comes to investing any more time/money into C4.
> 
> I decided to pick up a Samsung SmartThings Hub and 3 GE Zwave dimmer switches. Figured all this in total came out to the cost of 1 C4 dimmer switch, so it would be worth testing out first to figure out what fits my needs best. It is good to know that since I do have an EA controller, C4 may still end up being the route i go down the road.


If your harmony set up works better then you have a pretty sad C4 dealer. at worst it should be an apples to apples comparison. as far as not needing automation, almost no one needs it. its a nice to have in my opinion but it just makes life easier. but needed, of course not.


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## dbone1026

ezlotogura said:


> If your harmony set up works better then you have a pretty sad C4 dealer. at worst it should be an apples to apples comparison. as far as not needing automation, almost no one needs it. its a nice to have in my opinion but it just makes life easier. but needed, of course not.


Well, the issue in my case, in my HT I have an Nvidia Shield and eGreat media player. The shield does not have IR, so as is the C4 is unable to control. With Harmony, you can connect the remote to the Shield via Bluetooth and it works perfect. After reading around, it looks like there is a solution (http://www.video-storm.com/proddetail.asp?prod=irusb), I am just waiting for the IRUSB to arrive and then for the dealer to program.

Likewise, with the eGreat, it looks like the driver available for C4 doesn't offer complete control (doesn't power on/off the player properly). With the Harmony, no issues.

So, doing an apples to apples comparison, you can see why the Harmony remote is handling my needs better than C4. Now, it could very well be in part an issue with my dealer. For example, for the NVidia Shield, his suggestion was either I have to continue using the Shield remote to control (which I am doing currently), or to go buy the more expensive Shield Pro that comes with IR. Spending an extra $300 when I already have a player is not a solution, especially when you consider a quick google search I was able to find a solution for $40 (but, is an added cost nonetheless).


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## ezlotogura

how is the harmony controlling the shield if it does not have IR? just curious.
I've been with c4 and following home automation for about 5 years, never heard of eGreat, doesnt mean anything in the grand scheme of things, but there may be other media player that can work. and if it is IR controlled, any good dealer could add on/off programming via an outlet, updating the IR driver, etc.

again the beauty (or drawback) to C4 is the dealer experience. people can complain left and right, but it is what it is, they are a custom install product. a good dealer could have that stuff working without much of a sweat to be honest.


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## dbone1026

ezlotogura said:


> how is the harmony controlling the shield if it does not have IR? just curious.
> I've been with c4 and following home automation for about 5 years, never heard of eGreat, doesnt mean anything in the grand scheme of things, but there may be other media player that can work. and if it is IR controlled, any good dealer could add on/off programming via an outlet, updating the IR driver, etc.
> 
> again the beauty (or drawback) to C4 is the dealer experience. people can complain left and right, but it is what it is, they are a custom install product. a good dealer could have that stuff working without much of a sweat to be honest.


The Harmony has Bluetooth capabilities, so you connect the Harmony remote as a BT controller to the shield. 

the eGreat is definitely not a well known player by any stretch, just pointing out that the Harmony is set to operate it without issue where C4 is not off the bat.

I do agree on the dealer side, as I don't think it is all that positive that I had to actually research to find a solution for the Shield when the dealer should have (or had he been unsure, said he would research and get back to me, not offer me a solution that required shelling out an extra $300).

I will admit as well, I have always been hands on with all tech in my house, so part of me does not like the idea of handing over control to someone else. That is my own issue  I have no issues paying up for quality products, some of C4 just seems like a money grab though (charging an annual fee just to have remote/voice access, charging a fee just to get software so you can have some control over, pricing of their switches / thermostat, the ridiculous $1,200 price I was quoted for their tablet).

The dealer does have to make one more stop back as the Anthem Atmos amplifier already went bad, so waiting for a replacement.


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## ezlotogura

dbone1026 said:


> The Harmony has Bluetooth capabilities, so you connect the Harmony remote as a BT controller to the shield.
> 
> the eGreat is definitely not a well known player by any stretch, just pointing out that the Harmony is set to operate it without issue where C4 is not off the bat.
> 
> I do agree on the dealer side, as I don't think it is all that positive that I had to actually research to find a solution for the Shield when the dealer should have (or had he been unsure, said he would research and get back to me, not offer me a solution that required shelling out an extra $300).
> 
> I will admit as well, I have always been hands on with all tech in my house, so part of me does not like the idea of handing over control to someone else. That is my own issue  I have no issues paying up for quality products, some of C4 just seems like a money grab though (charging an annual fee just to have remote/voice access, charging a fee just to get software so you can have some control over, pricing of their switches / thermostat, the ridiculous $1,200 price I was quoted for their tablet).
> 
> The dealer does have to make one more stop back as the Anthem Atmos amplifier already went bad, so waiting for a replacement.


ah ok, yeah bluetooth is very limited within c4. there may be a work around but I have zero bluetooth devices. I wonder if there is a zigbee to bluetooth device.

again its based on your experience. if you had a mechanic that stunk you'd go elsewhere. if this dealer stinks, go elsewhere.

their touchscreens are expensive, but there are certainly reasons why:
1) if you want their intercom anywhere function it only works on a phone or their screens, no tablets
2) its "always on" the c4 experience vs a tablet that will time out and you'll have to press to open the app up
3) google exploding wall tablets - tablet batteries are different, they are not meant to be charged 24x7. many examples of in wall Apple/Android tablets popping and breaking because the battery explodes
4) support - iOS and Android get support for 3-4 years, then the hardware is obsolete. C4 is still supporting touch screens that are 5-6+ years old.

go set up an account at c4forums.com - it is for power users and some great remote dealers. your opinion will change.


----------



## dbone1026

ezlotogura said:


> ah ok, yeah bluetooth is very limited within c4. there may be a work around but I have zero bluetooth devices. I wonder if there is a zigbee to bluetooth device.
> 
> again its based on your experience. if you had a mechanic that stunk you'd go elsewhere. if this dealer stinks, go elsewhere.
> 
> their touchscreens are expensive, but there are certainly reasons why:
> 1) if you want their intercom anywhere function it only works on a phone or their screens, no tablets
> 2) its "always on" the c4 experience vs a tablet that will time out and you'll have to press to open the app up
> 3) google exploding wall tablets - tablet batteries are different, they are not meant to be charged 24x7. many examples of in wall Apple/Android tablets popping and breaking because the battery explodes
> 4) support - iOS and Android get support for 3-4 years, then the hardware is obsolete. C4 is still supporting touch screens that are 5-6+ years old.
> 
> go set up an account at c4forums.com - it is for power users and some great remote dealers. your opinion will change.


Funny, the selling point from the dealer why I should get the C4 tablet vs using my own tablet is using my own tablet it may be used for other things not C4 related. I have a tablet that sits on a stand in the HT, so I just simply plug it in to charge as needed. I do understand the potential exploding issue with a wall mounted tablet. Still think the C4 tablet price is way over inflated vs what it actually provides, but of course that is just my opinion.

Don't mean to come across as negative on C4. Really, I am just digging around for information on what it can provide, how I use it currently, and whether or not it makes sense to really invest in down the road. Your posts have been very helpful.


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## ezlotogura

dbone1026 said:


> Funny, the selling point from the dealer why I should get the C4 tablet vs using my own tablet is using my own tablet it may be used for other things not C4 related. I have a tablet that sits on a stand in the HT, so I just simply plug it in to charge as needed. I do understand the potential exploding issue with a wall mounted tablet. Still think the C4 tablet price is way over inflated vs what it actually provides, but of course that is just my opinion.
> 
> Don't mean to come across as negative on C4. Really, I am just digging around for information on what it can provide, how I use it currently, and whether or not it makes sense to really invest in down the road. Your posts have been very helpful.


yeah that is another reason, a dedicated device. though that is kinda one of my points, its always "on" to c4 and you dont have to fumble around to launch the C4 app

again i'll suggest spending a lot of time at c4forums.com - though the focus is c4 there is just a lot of good knowledge and chat on there about cabling, best practices, other 3rd party hardware, etc. and you'll find what C4 can do, and you'll find a dealer who can execute for you.


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## gdfein

I’ve been experiencing lag and General bugginess that comes and goes with my C4 systems in both my living room and media room systems. I reboot the controllers and things it works “just ok” for a 4-5days and then starts to get wonky again. Needing to reboot a controller weekly is not acceptable in my mind. 

For giggles I bought a Harmony Elite at BB this weekend for $299, invested a few hours setting it up on my Lroom system (TV, AVR, DTV C61k, ATV4K, Oppo203, PS4 and Sonos). I put this in place right alongside the C4 IR emitters. 

With what I call minimal invested time I am up and running and the system is more responsive (less lag) than C4. Granted I don’t have control of my lights from the Harmony, but I’ve improved the AV control experience significantly. 

I know C4 proponents will say it’s an installer/programmer issue, but I’ve had 3 different Elite/Platinum level installers over the past few years and we always fall well short of having a consistent positive user experience. 

I need more time to draw a better conclusion but sharing my early days feedback. 

One knock on the Elite is that I personally would want a physical number pad section with buttons for channels/TV surfing than the touchscreen. I went Elite so I could have deeper control of Device functions. Sucks their design forces this trade off. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ezlotogura

gdfein said:


> I’ve been experiencing lag and General bugginess that comes and goes with my C4 systems in both my living room and media room systems. I reboot the controllers and things it works “just ok” for a 4-5days and then starts to get wonky again. Needing to reboot a controller weekly is not acceptable in my mind.
> 
> For giggles I bought a Harmony Elite at BB this weekend for $299, invested a few hours setting it up on my Lroom system (TV, AVR, DTV C61k, ATV4K, Oppo203, PS4 and Sonos). I put this in place right alongside the C4 IR emitters.
> 
> With what I call minimal invested time I am up and running and the system is more responsive (less lag) than C4. Granted I don’t have control of my lights from the Harmony, but I’ve improved the AV control experience significantly.
> 
> I know C4 proponents will say it’s an installer/programmer issue, but I’ve had 3 different Elite/Platinum level installers over the past few years and we always fall well short of having a consistent positive user experience.
> 
> I need more time to draw a better conclusion but sharing my early days feedback.
> 
> One knock on the Elite is that I personally would want a physical number pad section with buttons for channels/TV surfing than the touchscreen. I went Elite so I could have deeper control of Device functions. Sucks their design forces this trade off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


C4 Elite/Platinum labels are misleading - it is based on SALES volume. nothing about quality. Some dealer hooked up with say Toll Brothers to do basic installs on new home builds will sell enough to be Platinum. they may be good at adding basic lighting and whole home audio but that is where their knowledge stops.

I'd be curious as to your networking equipment set up, what is your main controller, what is wired vs wireless, how many zigbee/IP devices are in this project, etc. I am by far an expert, so again I'd suggest c4forums.com - lots of dealers on there offer up their time to help troubleshoot. there is a chance you have a script running loose and bogging down your controller. a quick dealer/tech support call can review your logs, see if you have a bad driver/script and get it fixed fairly quick. or it may be a networking/hardware issue too. that is why more detail is needed.


----------



## dbone1026

ezlotogura said:


> yeah that is another reason, a dedicated device. though that is kinda one of my points, its always "on" to c4 and you dont have to fumble around to launch the C4 app


Well, fumble around is a bit of an exaggeration lol. The tablet I have is just set up for C4 in the HT, so the App is right there and it is essentially a dedicated device. The $1000 price difference between the tablet I am using and the one C4 has is rather inflated IMO.

Separate C4 question. Let's say I eventually want to switch over the TV setups in my house to C4 (currently all Harmony setups). What additional equipment would be required? I am assuming if you want to use a remote you would need a separate C4 report for each location. Any other equipment? My EA controller is in the basement HT.


----------



## ezlotogura

dbone1026 said:


> ezlotogura said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah that is another reason, a dedicated device. though that is kinda one of my points, its always "on" to c4 and you dont have to fumble around to launch the C4 app
> 
> 
> 
> Well, fumble around is a bit of an exaggeration lol. The tablet I have is just set up for C4 in the HT, so the App is right there and it is essentially a dedicated device. The $1000 price difference between the tablet I am using and the one C4 has is rather inflated IMO.
> 
> Separate C4 question. Let's say I eventually want to switch over the TV setups in my house to C4 (currently all Harmony setups). What additional equipment would be required? I am assuming if you want to use a remote you would need a separate C4 report for each location. Any other equipment? My EA controller is in the basement HT.
Click to expand...

As I’ve repeated before everyone’s case is different. Someone may have a tablet by the TV but their kids always take it or it runs out of juice when you need it. Furthermore if all you are doing is controlling a TV and maybe lights even an android tablet is a waste. Get Alexa to control lights and use a c4 remote control - SR260. Who likes to channel surf using a tablet?

To answer your question - you need c4 to control the devices. Most popular methods are IR, IP or RS232 - at least those are the most popular media protocols. Each EA controller has a certain amount of each of those inputs. I have an older hc800 and I think I have 6 IR, 2 rs232 and IP is unlimited because it’s thru the network. If you need more inputs you can buy used hc250s cheap on eBay. You can even buy hc800s cheap. Or a dedicated I/o extender. Or in some cases if you have a video matrix (as I do) the balun behind the tv likely can carry IR, rs232 or another Ethernet out port to give more options. I have video storm so the 1 Ethernet wire gives me a tv signal and rs232 or ir. So I can control a local Tv, AVR, etc.


----------



## dbone1026

ezlotogura said:


> dbone1026 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ezlotogura said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah that is another reason, a dedicated device. though that is kinda one of my points, its always "on" to c4 and you dont have to fumble around to launch the C4 app
> 
> 
> 
> Well, fumble around is a bit of an exaggeration lol. The tablet I have is just set up for C4 in the HT, so the App is right there and it is essentially a dedicated device. The $1000 price difference between the tablet I am using and the one C4 has is rather inflated IMO.
> 
> Separate C4 question. Let's say I eventually want to switch over the TV setups in my house to C4 (currently all Harmony setups). What additional equipment would be required? I am assuming if you want to use a remote you would need a separate C4 report for each location. Any other equipment? My EA controller is in the basement HT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As I’ve repeated before everyone’s case is different. Someone may have a tablet by the TV but their kids always take it or it runs out of juice when you need it. Furthermore if all you are doing is controlling a TV and maybe lights even an android tablet is a waste. Get Alexa to control lights and use a c4 remote control - SR260. Who likes to channel surf using a tablet?
> 
> To answer your question - you need c4 to control the devices. Most popular methods are IR, IP or RS232 - at least those are the most popular media protocols. Each EA controller has a certain amount of each of those inputs. I have an older hc800 and I think I have 6 IR, 2 rs232 and IP is unlimited because it’s thru the network. If you need more inputs you can buy used hc250s cheap on eBay. You can even buy hc800s cheap. Or a dedicated I/o extender. Or in some cases if you have a video matrix (as I do) the balun behind the tv likely can carry IR, rs232 or another Ethernet out port to give more options. I have video storm so the 1 Ethernet wire gives me a tv signal and rs232 or ir. So I can control a local Tv, AVR, etc.
Click to expand...

Doesn't using Alexa with C4 require you to pay an annual fee as part of the 4sight subscription? I understand if you already pay for that for what other services it brings, but still, it is an added expense. Also, I am not sure how channel surfing on a tablet applies since we are comparing this against the C4 tablet, not as a replacement to a remote.

Thanks for the info on the other TVs. There is no reason right now for me to make any changes to my other setups, but at some point my current harmonies will need to be replaced.


----------



## ezlotogura

dbone1026 said:


> Doesn't using Alexa with C4 require you to pay an annual fee as part of the 4sight subscription? I understand if you already pay for that for what other services it brings, but still, it is an added expense. Also, I am not sure how channel surfing on a tablet applies since we are comparing this against the C4 tablet, not as a replacement to a remote.
> 
> Thanks for the info on the other TVs. There is no reason right now for me to make any changes to my other setups, but at some point my current harmonies will need to be replaced.


I dont know what you are even using the tablet for next to a HT set up using your C4 setup. If you had a full home and wanted to intercom another room would be the biggest use case. Otherwise you can do most stuff on a phone or Alexa or an SR260 remote for quick commands. So I’m questioning if all you have is a TV set up on C4 - I agree you dont need a c4 touch screen, but i dont even think you need a cheap android touchscreen for C4 purposes. To have one for fun sure why not. I have 5 tv zones and really only the master bedroom has a touch screen within reach. My touchscreens are by the main entry points (front door/foyer area, middle area between my basement entry and my basement gym, kitchen door to patio) and one in an upstairs 2nd floor office - good for the intercom/doorbell function. Sure there is a TV in my gym but I dont really use the touchscreen more for controlling it. Anyways....no right or wrong answer, just curious if you have harmony remotes how do you use the tablet for c4 stuff on a daily basis? More curious than anything.

Alexa is part of 4sight which is $99/year. Buy composerHE which is a 1 time cost of $149 and you get the software and 1 year free of 4sight. Or buy the Epic driver for a 1 time fee of $149 - and his site explains some pros of his driver vs the native C4 support: https://www.epic-systems.com/products/amazon-echo-driver-for-control4 or buy https://www.chowmainsoft.com/ifttt/ which is Chowmain’s IFTTT Driver and it can let you voice trigger Alexa to do things in C4 and gives you a portal to bring any IFTTT device into C4.


----------



## Mntneer

gdfein said:


> I’ve been experiencing lag and General bugginess that comes and goes with my C4 systems in both my living room and media room systems. I reboot the controllers and things it works “just ok” for a 4-5days and then starts to get wonky again. Needing to reboot a controller weekly is not acceptable in my mind.
> 
> For giggles I bought a Harmony Elite at BB this weekend for $299, invested a few hours setting it up on my Lroom system (TV, AVR, DTV C61k, ATV4K, Oppo203, PS4 and Sonos). I put this in place right alongside the C4 IR emitters.
> 
> With what I call minimal invested time I am up and running and the system is more responsive (less lag) than C4. Granted I don’t have control of my lights from the Harmony, but I’ve improved the AV control experience significantly.
> 
> I know C4 proponents will say it’s an installer/programmer issue, but I’ve had 3 different Elite/Platinum level installers over the past few years and we always fall well short of having a consistent positive user experience.
> 
> I need more time to draw a better conclusion but sharing my early days feedback.
> 
> One knock on the Elite is that I personally would want a physical number pad section with buttons for channels/TV surfing than the touchscreen. I went Elite so I could have deeper control of Device functions. Sucks their design forces this trade off.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd love to know what your network looks like and what devices you have sitting on it, and have you had the wireless channels in your area scanned for interference? 

I've got a Harmony as well. I keep it simply for access to Logitech's database. 

EZ I think put it best. It's the difference between automation and control and then tying it all into a single system and single user interface. We've gone from getting rid of the multiple remotes to only have multiple iPhone/Android apps, which may be fine for some, but when I check my security, turn off my lights, look at a camera, turn on my TV and listen to music, I don't want to have to switch in and out of apps.


----------



## dbone1026

ezlotogura said:


> I dont know what you are even using the tablet for next to a HT set up using your C4 setup. If you had a full home and wanted to intercom another room would be the biggest use case. Otherwise you can do most stuff on a phone or Alexa or an SR260 remote for quick commands. So I’m questioning if all you have is a TV set up on C4 - I agree you dont need a c4 touch screen, but i dont even think you need a cheap android touchscreen for C4 purposes. To have one for fun sure why not. I have 5 tv zones and really only the master bedroom has a touch screen within reach. My touchscreens are by the main entry points (front door/foyer area, middle area between my basement entry and my basement gym, kitchen door to patio) and one in an upstairs 2nd floor office - good for the intercom/doorbell function. Sure there is a TV in my gym but I dont really use the touchscreen more for controlling it. Anyways....no right or wrong answer, just curious if you have harmony remotes how do you use the tablet for c4 stuff on a daily basis? More curious than anything.
> 
> Alexa is part of 4sight which is $99/year. Buy composerHE which is a 1 time cost of $149 and you get the software and 1 year free of 4sight. Or buy the Epic driver for a 1 time fee of $149 - and his site explains some pros of his driver vs the native C4 support: https://www.epic-systems.com/products/amazon-echo-driver-for-control4 or buy https://www.chowmainsoft.com/ifttt/ which is Chowmain’s IFTTT Driver and it can let you voice trigger Alexa to do things in C4 and gives you a portal to bring any IFTTT device into C4.


With the tablet, I was really just commenting versus how the dealer presented it to me. When he drew up the proposal for the HT room he had just added the tablet to the order (along with the C4 SR260 remote). When I questioned it (due to price), he mentioned I could just use the C4 App on my own tablet, the only drawback being that my own tablet would not be a "dedicated" C4 device. So really, it was never brought up some of the other features (such as Intercom, etc... which you mentioned). He might have had in mind integrating the C4 tablet eventually into my entire home, but we never talked about doing anything outside of the HT room. Since this install was purely just the HT room, you can understand why I balked at the idea of spending $1,200 on a tablet where the only use would be to operate the equipment and lights in the HT. 

In terms of how I am using my tablet now, I have it sitting on a stand on a counter when you enter the HT room. As soon as you walk in, you can go right to tablet, turn on the lights, turn on the equipment, etc... This is particularly useful for my kids (they are young) as they find it much easier to for example operate the lights or start up an activity from the tablet vs the C4 remote. The C4 remote is usually used afterwards to actually control (select movie, etc...), although right now it is not used a lot since the NVidia Shield is the main player (have to use the Nvidia remote for now). 

As far as the rest of my house, I have a TV setup in my bedroom and the family room (TV, Receiver, Various Media Boxes / Video Game Systems). Right now I use Harmony remotes / hubs to control those. I can also just bring up the Harmony App on my phone to control. We use Alexa to control lights in the upstairs bedrooms.

For 4sight, is that the standard fee ($99/year)? I just checked my invoice, and I was charged $125 by the dealer. Either way, the dealer has still not set this up for me, so it would seem to make more sense to just apply to towards the composerHE software since it comes with 4sight.


----------



## ezlotogura

dbone1026 said:


> With the tablet, I was really just commenting versus how the dealer presented it to me. When he drew up the proposal for the HT room he had just added the tablet to the order (along with the C4 SR260 remote). When I questioned it (due to price), he mentioned I could just use the C4 App on my own tablet, the only drawback being that my own tablet would not be a "dedicated" C4 device. So really, it was never brought up some of the other features (such as Intercom, etc... which you mentioned). He might have had in mind integrating the C4 tablet eventually into my entire home, but we never talked about doing anything outside of the HT room. Since this install was purely just the HT room, you can understand why I balked at the idea of spending $1,200 on a tablet where the only use would be to operate the equipment and lights in the HT.
> 
> In terms of how I am using my tablet now, I have it sitting on a stand on a counter when you enter the HT room. As soon as you walk in, you can go right to tablet, turn on the lights, turn on the equipment, etc... This is particularly useful for my kids (they are young) as they find it much easier to for example operate the lights or start up an activity from the tablet vs the C4 remote. The C4 remote is usually used afterwards to actually control (select movie, etc...), although right now it is not used a lot since the NVidia Shield is the main player (have to use the Nvidia remote for now).
> 
> As far as the rest of my house, I have a TV setup in my bedroom and the family room (TV, Receiver, Various Media Boxes / Video Game Systems). Right now I use Harmony remotes / hubs to control those. I can also just bring up the Harmony App on my phone to control. We use Alexa to control lights in the upstairs bedrooms.
> 
> For 4sight, is that the standard fee ($99/year)? I just checked my invoice, and I was charged $125 by the dealer. Either way, the dealer has still not set this up for me, so it would seem to make more sense to just apply to towards the composerHE software since it comes with 4sight.


$99 is the standard price MSRP price as far as I know. 

the big pro to the c4 tablet is the always on feature, no issue with power supplies blowing up and the integrated intercom system. plus it doesnt disappear because the kids wanted to play games, etc.

to start the tv "watch > tv" on a c4 remote gets no easier. watch > tv, watch > apple tv, watch > blu ray, etc. using the SR 260 to start content on a tv is super easy. my 72 year old mother in law can do it. heck if you get a c4 keypad you can put a button the wall to turn the TV on and always default to say Cable TV or something. having to walk into a room, awake a tablet, open c4, turn on a light then turn on a TV is not automation. and i can see why you arent impressed with what C4 can do!

Agree no real need for the tablet - if you want automation use a few sensors and the lights can go on/off without pressing a tablet or a remote control. or you can use alexa. saying "turn on HT lights" is easier than going to a tablet, waking it, opening up the c4 app (or any other app) then going to the room and turning on the lights. dont think control, think automation. walk into the room, lights go on. leave room, lights go off. watch > movie lights dim and curtain goes down, etc. automation. not control. im trying to change your mind set 

the SR 260 is a great piece of hardware in my opinion. a very fine hand held remote control for TV viewing. it can do lights and other stuff but not as quick as a voice command or just automating it with sensors.

dont ask how you can use sensors - a million ways and design is important. so one needs to physically see the space and how you use the space. again i am no dealer, but i use a remote dealer, yet i've figured out how to sensor 75% of my house so i rarely if ever interact with any lights in my entire house. its not rocket science, you just need to figure it out. you can sensor a door. you can sensor a couch. you can sensor based on motion. you can trigger lights based on what TV input is being used. you can sensor based on geolocation. im not a dealer, I am just saying your options to sensor are almost as limitless as you can imagine.


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## Bigmoviefan

Just updated my AppleTV and it no longer works with my Control 4. AppleTV remote works but the control 4 does not.


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## SMHarman

Bigmoviefan said:


> Just updated my AppleTV and it no longer works with my Control 4. AppleTV remote works but the control 4 does not.


Did ATV add an allow IP control in their options or settings?

Sent from my E6603 using Tapatalk


----------



## TrendSetterX

Bigmoviefan said:


> Just updated my AppleTV and it no longer works with my Control 4. AppleTV remote works but the control 4 does not.






SMHarman said:


> Did ATV add an allow IP control in their options or settings?
> 
> Sent from my E6603 using Tapatalk




Your dealer used the wrong driver. The driver your dealer used is only certified to work with older AppleTvs and was never guaranteed to work with the current gen. Your dealer either needs to swap out for the correct IP driver or switch out to Jesse’s IR driver.


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## ezlotogura

the correct IP driver will require an EA controller I believe and you need to be on 2.10.x and above. Otherwise as referenced there is an IR driver you can use if you do not meet these requirements.


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## MileHighAutomation

This is apart of the package though. Control4 is its own system.


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## Paul Layton

Henry Tsang said:


> We installed Control4 system in our new home five years ago. Ever since we became hostages of the dealer. Control4 system is dealer originated system - every little changes, updates - you need to call your dealer for services. Since technology changes so fast and our needs changes, it is very frustrating to rely on the dealer to keep up the Control4 system to an optimal condition at all time. I wish I could undo all the wiring and installation of the Control4 system in my house to gain my control back.


I agree completely. Avoid the Control 4 pitch. Had system 3 years and constanaly unstable system needing reboots and fiddling to work. Company offers nothing and dealers a joke.
For my $100 k I have a systen that C4 tells me I need to replace with new! As they dont support their products!


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## Mntneer

Paul Layton said:


> I agree completely. Avoid the Control 4 pitch. Had system 3 years and constanaly unstable system needing reboots and fiddling to work. Company offers nothing and dealers a joke.
> For my $100 k I have a systen that C4 tells me I need to replace with new! As they dont support their products!


Paul, I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Where do you live? What's the details of your system?

Constantly unstable is not something I see very often at all, unless there's an issue with either bad hardware or bad networking.


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## Mr_Marty

Want to add my 2/100 of a dollar here.

We built a new home and had a $200K Control4 system installed. Absolute garbage. At best the system is unstable and unreliable needing constant reboots and "adjusting the matrix and baluns". At worst the system just fails to work.

I have to reboot the whole system at least once a week by powering everything off and then back on. The video distribution fails to work more often than it works. The tech has been out at least 20 times and it failed again yesterday.

The lighting control will randomly lock up requiring all the dimmer packs to be rebooted by turning off the breakers and then back on.

The "comfort" (thermostats) has worked correctly for a total of about three days. Every time the tech resets it it works for a few hours and then fails again. We can see the temperatures of the zones but can't set anything.

The intercom is a joke with so much lag that trying to have a conversation is more difficult than a tech support call to Mumbai. The security cameras only update every twenty seconds.

The only thing that works remotely reliably is the audio distribution.

If you are interested the system was installed by Audio-Video Experience out of Hampton Falls, NH.


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## smoothtlk

Mr_Marty said:


> Want to add my 2/100 of a dollar here.
> 
> We built a new home and had a $200K Control4 system installed. Absolute garbage. At best the system is unstable and unreliable needing constant reboots and "adjusting the matrix and baluns". At worst the system just fails to work.
> 
> I have to reboot the whole system at least once a week by powering everything off and then back on. The video distribution fails to work more often than it works. The tech has been out at least 20 times and it failed again yesterday.
> 
> The lighting control will randomly lock up requiring all the dimmer packs to be rebooted by turning off the breakers and then back on.
> 
> The "comfort" (thermostats) has worked correctly for a total of about three days. Every time the tech resets it it works for a few hours and then fails again. We can see the temperatures of the zones but can't set anything.
> 
> The intercom is a joke with so much lag that trying to have a conversation is more difficult than a tech support call to Mumbai. The security cameras only update every twenty seconds.
> 
> The only thing that works remotely reliably is the audio distribution.
> 
> If you are interested the system was installed by Audio-Video Experience out of Hampton Falls, NH.


Yikes....
Most of the time one can easily point the finger at the installer / programmer. You have so many issues it's hard to say. Intercom latency? geees. Is the ethernet network solid? That might determine several of the issues.

so now what? Just continue to deal with it?

Is the lighting system C4 or Lutron (or other)? Just wondering how you deal with next steps ie: continue or bale out and move onto a different solution.


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## eatenbacktolife

I'll be the last to defend manufacturers who make these products since they won't hesitate to throw garbage out into the wild and leave dealers holding the bag. But that sounds like some serious infrastructure issues.

Could be a ****ed network from having the "AV" company do it. I'm guessing there's a rack full of _AV distributor acquired networking gear_ possibly setup completely wrong. There's no reason to use that crap, except contempt towards your clients.

Also never underestimate another vendor breaking things. More-so in commercial, but there's massive idiots in residential as well. Maybe the pool vendor wanted to add their fancy monitoring system and brought their own switch and firewall. And their resident pool cleaner/networking expert decided it would work faster if they connected two lines to the switch.


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## ezlotogura

Mr_Marty said:


> Want to add my 2/100 of a dollar here.
> 
> We built a new home and had a $200K Control4 system installed. Absolute garbage. At best the system is unstable and unreliable needing constant reboots and "adjusting the matrix and baluns". At worst the system just fails to work.
> 
> I have to reboot the whole system at least once a week by powering everything off and then back on. The video distribution fails to work more often than it works. The tech has been out at least 20 times and it failed again yesterday.
> 
> The lighting control will randomly lock up requiring all the dimmer packs to be rebooted by turning off the breakers and then back on.
> 
> The "comfort" (thermostats) has worked correctly for a total of about three days. Every time the tech resets it it works for a few hours and then fails again. We can see the temperatures of the zones but can't set anything.
> 
> The intercom is a joke with so much lag that trying to have a conversation is more difficult than a tech support call to Mumbai. The security cameras only update every twenty seconds.
> 
> The only thing that works remotely reliably is the audio distribution.
> 
> If you are interested the system was installed by Audio-Video Experience out of Hampton Falls, NH.


You can call Control4. They have a customer advocacy group. Call 888-400-4070. You can tell them about your issues and usually they will follow up with another known dealer in the area at least to go check in to see what is wrong and then see if they can work with the original dealer or new dealer to fix it. But I agree, everything you mention with latency, lock ups, etc is really pointing to a failure in setting up a network. C4 is a computer, its very likely not to be the problem but how the computer was set up is likely the issue. I will say the 1 major issue at hand is shoddy dealers - not all C4 dealers are bad but a few bad ones really put a stain on their name and reputation.


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## bryantc

I'd really like to know what a $200k automation system does. Is there a robot butler? I'm guessing that price includes things like the home theater components as well?


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## smoothtlk

bryantc said:


> I'd really like to know what a $200k automation system does. Is there a robot butler? I'm guessing that price includes things like the home theater components as well?


The largest expense is typically video distribution components (Matrix Switches) and lighting controls (X$ times Y switches = a lot). Then Labor to install, Labor to program. In wall and tabletop touchscreens.
When one says "automation", A dedicated Home Theater is typically not in that bill. A Home Theater would be on it's own as a separate (but ideally integrated) project. I am sure many include whole home TVs and Audio distribution in their "automation" package. Sometimes folks bundle security NVR / cameras (and their install labor) in their automation budget.
$200K plus is an exceptionally priced automation system.


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## sbarnesvta

smoothtlk said:


> The largest expense is typically video distribution components (Matrix Switches) and lighting controls (X$ times Y switches = a lot). Then Labor to install, Labor to program. In wall and tabletop touchscreens.
> When one says "automation", A dedicated Home Theater is typically not in that bill. A Home Theater would be on it's own as a separate (but ideally integrated) project. I am sure many include whole home TVs and Audio distribution in their "automation" package. Sometimes folks bundle security NVR / cameras (and their install labor) in their automation budget.
> $200K plus is an exceptionally priced automation system.


Yep it is all about scale. Put a 16x16 video system in, decent lighting package, control and security, you are well over the $200k mark installed and programmed. BUT it should work!


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## ezlotogura

bryantc said:


> I'd really like to know what a $200k automation system does. Is there a robot butler? I'm guessing that price includes things like the home theater components as well?


I'd think so. Speakers x amount of Rooms. TVs x amount of rooms. could include an alarm system from scratch and may include security cameras, etc. Are they running wiring? If its a big home and properly designed they could be running 100 ethernet cables around the house. I have a 3600 sq ft home and I have about 80 ethernet runs and another 8 speaker wire runs. No clue on alarm as that was installed by the original owners but we have ~30 zones so even more wires. Again also depends where people live - in my area (greater NYC metro area) - any trade is getting $85-$150/hr to do work onsite. So if you have 2 people wiring up a 5,000 sq ft house, building a rack, terminating all the wires, doing jacks in all the rooms and finishing off the rack nicely then testing all the wires, etc that in itself is a few days of work. So add up all that hardware, all the labor to run the wires, then start to get into the actual labor for programming, etc it could add up quick.

Also not all dealers explain all the pros cons - for instance with Control4 they may sell you an Ea1 behind all TVs by just saying "do you want on screen display on all the TVs" and someone goes sure. But maybe if show them on the OSD they may say eh, maybe just needed in 1-2 rooms. Or maybe if you have a matrix they would be ok with 1-2 controller feeds into that matrix to share an OSD so the 10 TVs in the house can only access 2 OSD menus at a time (odds of more than 2 ever being used at the same time is slim to none). Sure the extra controllers can help with zigbee coverage but so can other devices too. Its just a quick point to say there may be some overkill/fancy features in there that may not be 100% "necessary".

Without seeing the quote I don't know. But if you are doing a 4-5,000 sq ft home in my area and having someone source all the TVs, speakers, components, controllers, etc and adding in security, door locks, alarms, etc I could easily see the whole thing adding up to $200k. the installer is probably going to be at this house for weeks prior to install and some time post install to work out the tweaks. They have to pay for insurance, pay roll taxes, etc. 

Lastly - some dealers who are busy may throw out crazy estimates to people, and if they bite then sure they'll drop another project and run after that one. So this could have been that case too where a contractor just gave a crazy # and got the gig. I know some people in the trades who do that when they are busy. 

not home automation but as an example of how expensive some areas can be - I have 1 acre of land and I've been given quotes of $14,000-$18,000 for a new sprinkler system (the one originally put in was awfully designed). Those parts are way cheaper than home automation hardware and the install time is way quicker (1-2 days) and I have a new Rachio Gen 3 controller, so this is just the valves/heads and stuff. That said given those quotes I am looking to find someone to do some patch work vs starting from scratch because that is how I value the use of a sprinkler. someone who wants the greenest grass on the block may not balk at those prices. I am sure out of my market the price would be significantly less.


----------



## bryantc

smoothtlk said:


> The largest expense is typically video distribution components (Matrix Switches) and lighting controls (X$ times Y switches = a lot). Then Labor to install, Labor to program. In wall and tabletop touchscreens.
> When one says "automation", A dedicated Home Theater is typically not in that bill. A Home Theater would be on it's own as a separate (but ideally integrated) project. I am sure many include whole home TVs and Audio distribution in their "automation" package. Sometimes folks bundle security NVR / cameras (and their install labor) in their automation budget.
> $200K plus is an exceptionally priced automation system.


When I was talking to the dealer they quoted me on some TVs and AVRs with $1000 markup. So its possible that one dealer is basically installing every electronic device in the house which could easily reach astronomic prices.


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## Mntneer

bryantc said:


> When I was talking to the dealer they quoted me on some TVs and AVRs with $1000 markup. So its possible that one dealer is basically installing every electronic device in the house which could easily reach astronomic prices.


Most of the times however, the pricing you get from the dealers is the same pricing you'd get from a Best Buy or an Amazon, especially on quality models. Some will install owner supplied products for you, but there is that labor expense that still has to be accounted for.


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## cmcjo

ezlotogura said:


> You can call Control4. They have a customer advocacy group. Call 888-400-4070. You can tell them about your issues and usually they will follow up with another known dealer in the area at least to go check in to see what is wrong and then see if they can work with the original dealer or new dealer to fix it. But I agree, everything you mention with latency, lock ups, etc is really pointing to a failure in setting up a network. C4 is a computer, its very likely not to be the problem but how the computer was set up is likely the issue. I will say the 1 major issue at hand is shoddy dealers - not all C4 dealers are bad but a few bad ones really put a stain on their name and reputation.


100% correct. In fact I have seen on more then one occasion, the C4 advocacy group FULLY refund the client. the first thing you should do is call them tomorrow


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## Mr_Marty

eatenbacktolife said:


> I'll be the last to defend manufacturers who make these products since they won't hesitate to throw garbage out into the wild and leave dealers holding the bag. But that sounds like some serious infrastructure issues.
> 
> Could be a ****ed network from having the "AV" company do it. I'm guessing there's a rack full of _AV distributor acquired networking gear_ possibly setup completely wrong. There's no reason to use that crap, except contempt towards your clients.
> 
> Also never underestimate another vendor breaking things. More-so in commercial, but there's massive idiots in residential as well. Maybe the pool vendor wanted to add their fancy monitoring system and brought their own switch and firewall. And their resident pool cleaner/networking expert decided it would work faster if they connected two lines to the switch.


Yes, I think it's a fundamental issue with the network. The AV company installed it and it's all Araknis products that they sourced. The system failed again this week. I told them I want a written proposal outlining the solution to the problems and that the proposal should include replacing the Araknis stuff with name-brand networking gear.


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## ezlotogura

Mr_Marty said:


> Yes, I think it's a fundamental issue with the network. The AV company installed it and it's all Araknis products that they sourced. The system failed again this week. I told them I want a written proposal outlining the solution to the problems and that the proposal should include replacing the Araknis stuff with name-brand networking gear.


Araknis is name brand gear. Its not big box store gear, but its certainly a name brand that is used in many projects. Could be a bad piece of a hardware. Could be poor set up/configuration. Maybe ask another dealer who is more computer/network savvy look at your network?


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## MacOSR

I'm running Araknis equipment with 4 access points, two switches and a router...all Araknis. It works flawlessly with a few dozen wi-fi devices continually active. Something sounds wrong with the wiring or the setup. However, the hardware should perform well. I would first have the wiring checked, then next move to the setup...especially the wifi configuration.


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## MacOSR

Mr_Marty said:


> Want to add my 2/100 of a dollar here.
> 
> We built a new home and had a $200K Control4 system installed. Absolute garbage. At best the system is unstable and unreliable needing constant reboots and "adjusting the matrix and baluns". At worst the system just fails to work.
> 
> I have to reboot the whole system at least once a week by powering everything off and then back on. The video distribution fails to work more often than it works. The tech has been out at least 20 times and it failed again yesterday.
> 
> The lighting control will randomly lock up requiring all the dimmer packs to be rebooted by turning off the breakers and then back on.
> 
> The "comfort" (thermostats) has worked correctly for a total of about three days. Every time the tech resets it it works for a few hours and then fails again. We can see the temperatures of the zones but can't set anything.
> 
> The intercom is a joke with so much lag that trying to have a conversation is more difficult than a tech support call to Mumbai. The security cameras only update every twenty seconds.
> 
> The only thing that works remotely reliably is the audio distribution.
> 
> If you are interested the system was installed by Audio-Video Experience out of Hampton Falls, NH.


I wanted to add more...I also have a very extensive setup and experience none of the problems you are describing. I have nearly 200 C4 devices (Keypads, dimmers and remotes), 4k video matrix (8 zone powering 10 end points) with a mixed device setup, theatre, 24 zone audio system, etc.

From the what you describe if you are having issues with the video distribution and the baluns there is something wrong with the wiring or they specced the wrong baluns for your end points.

As far as the other issues I'm wondering if you do have network issues. I assume that you intercoms are hard wired. If not, they should be. My dealer said they will never (unless the client insists) run them over wifi due to potential lag. When we installed our door stations and in-wall keypads it was a PITA for them to get the wiring in-place but they did it.

With that said...what you are experiencing would be SUPER frustrating but it is not my experience with C4 at all.


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## thebland

I don’t have C4 but have a Crestron system with NVX 4K HDR distribution baluns (6 sources, 3 displays). Their respective Ethernet cables are all ran to a dedicated PoE switch in the equipment room.

The system was having issues, crashing my internet, spotty, dropping video and causing mayhem with other devices randomly. 

The issue was not Crestron but the programming of the dedicated PoE+ switch. Too much of a PoE power draw on the switch.

Crestron, probably like C4, has white papers on programming instructions and settings for network switches and, in fact, recommends certain high power switches (eg Cisco - which I employ).

Like the above poster, with keypads, switches, alarm, audio, etc I have well over 100 devices running through Crestron. Switching is almost instantaneous even with 4K HDR sources. 

Check the network and network equipment and programming.


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## ezlotogura

For a while Blackwire was selling preconfigured Cisco Switches for Just Add Power/C4 installs for Video Matrix. So if a dealer wasn't comfortable doing the proper settings (as @thebland) mentions you could buy it preconfigured "off the shelf" if you will.

It is VERY rarely the Control4 hardware at fault. Its a computer, I am sure 1 out of X are DOA just like buying a Dell or HP. But most of the issues are related to networking. That is why C4 purchased Pakedge, why they created a certification course that really just focuses on Networking for Home Automation, etc. Dealers can use any hardware they want though there is a "do not list" that does circulate.

That said, when most of these problems are posted it BECOMES C4's fault because their name is on "the project" but its usually tied into something with a switch/router or cabling and something was not spec'd or configured properly.


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## eatenbacktolife

Mr_Marty said:


> Yes, I think it's a fundamental issue with the network. The AV company installed it and it's all Araknis products that they sourced. The system failed again this week. I told them I want a written proposal outlining the solution to the problems and that the proposal should include replacing the Araknis stuff with name-brand networking gear.


How many network switches are in your install? Do you have issues with the internet as well (over Wi-Fi for example) when the C4 stops working? 

What's your video matrix? Is it AV over IP like "just add power" or something else?

Arkanis is in the same boat as other AV networking equipment like Luxul and Pakedge. It has good margin for dealers, harder to price shop on Amazon and it's easy (or should be) for AV companies to setup. For what it costs though you are in Aruba, Ruckus, Cisco etc territory. 

Since it sounds like the network slowly starts to **** the bed, this could be something as simple as some switches being looped. Or if the video matrix is Av over IP dumping a bunch of multicast video on your network.


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## eatenbacktolife

ezlotogura said:


> For a while Blackwire was selling preconfigured Cisco Switches for Just Add Power/C4 installs for Video Matrix. So if a dealer wasn't comfortable doing the proper settings (as @thebland) mentions you could buy it preconfigured "off the shelf" if you will.


No dealer should be selling or installing network video if they can't even set up a JAP system using the software, which holds your hand through the process. No wonder why there's so many ****ed installs out there


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## ezlotogura

eatenbacktolife said:


> No dealer should be selling or installing network video if they can't even set up a JAP system using the software, which holds your hand through the process. No wonder why there's so many ****ed installs out there


from my understanding (not a dealer or a JAP user, I use Video Storm/Netplay) the Switch was more or less configured for you with multicasting and a few other features tuned on/off to make it quick plug and play. It seems smart as Blackwire sold JAP too so its a 1 stop shop to buy/install and makes it more plug and play. There was still set up on the C4 side the dealer had to do from my knowledge.

Its been about 4 years since C4 purchased Packedge. I wonder if the amount of poor installs has dropped or if there are any relevant statistics between problem systems and what network/what type of installer did the work. As much as I like the C4 system I do agree they should be stronger on vetting out dealers and from what I gather and read they have started to crack down more and more because they do not want to tarnish their reputation with poor installs.


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## eatenbacktolife

ezlotogura said:


> from my understanding (not a dealer or a JAP user, I use Video Storm/Netplay) the Switch was more or less configured for you with multicasting and a few other features tuned on/off to make it quick plug and play. It seems smart as Blackwire sold JAP too so its a 1 stop shop to buy/install and makes it more plug and play. There was still set up on the C4 side the dealer had to do from my knowledge.
> 
> Its been about 4 years since C4 purchased Packedge. I wonder if the amount of poor installs has dropped or if there are any relevant statistics between problem systems and what network/what type of installer did the work. As much as I like the C4 system I do agree they should be stronger on vetting out dealers and from what I gather and read they have started to crack down more and more because they do not want to tarnish their reputation with poor installs.


I mean hey, its great if they let the system burn in for a few days to keep an eye out for failed hardware. I run across lots of IT people who know very little about anything with a suffix of "cast", so what hope is there for the AV tech who's already smoked 3 joints by 2:30pm. Try explaining a vlan tag to one of these guys. Too bad the client is usually the one that gets screwed when something gets patched wrong and their entire network is flooded with 700mb of multicast video and these geniuses can't figure out why.


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## Ms. Rich

AidenL said:


> I would agree with Henry.
> 
> I'm in the middle of a very bad, ongoing experience with Control 4.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, its flaky and unreliable.


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## Ms. Rich

Agree with a Henry. Held hostage no more. Had a friend come out and disconnect from Control 4 and tun everything through receiver. Have 2 remotes now but I’m free!!!!


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## Ms. Rich

ezlotogura said:


> from my understanding (not a dealer or a JAP user, I use Video Storm/Netplay) the Switch was more or less configured for you with multicasting and a few other features tuned on/off to make it quick plug and play. It seems smart as Blackwire sold JAP too so its a 1 stop shop to buy/install and makes it more plug and play. There was still set up on the C4 side the dealer had to do from my knowledge.
> 
> Its been about 4 years since C4 purchased Packedge. I wonder if the amount of poor installs has dropped or if there are any relevant statistics between problem systems and what network/what type of installer did the work. As much as I like the C4 system I do agree they should be stronger on vetting out dealers and from what I gather and read they have started to crack down more and more because they do not want to tarnish their reputation with poor installs.


Dealer was a total rip off. Never even tegustrr Er Ed my System “Master’s Security System”. His tech told me Ma’am sorry but you got ripped off!


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## ezlotogura

Ms. Rich said:


> Dealer was a total rip off. Never even tegustrr Er Ed my System “Master’s Security System”. His tech told me Ma’am sorry but you got ripped off!


not really sure what all that means. Most people when brought in to look at another vendor/contractors work usually speak ill upon it and say "oh they did that, I do it this way, etc"

Again, there are bad control4 dealers. There are bad auto mechanics. There are bad accountants. That does not mean the accounting industry as a whole is bad nor does it mean Control4 is a bad product, it means you had a bad experience.

Everyone should get 2-3 quotes, everyone should ask for references. You do that when getting quotes on landscaping services, accounting services, mechanic, etc. Your home automation/home network is no different. And I saw your other post, you may have 2 remotes now instead of 1. If all you had C4 installed to do was controlling a single TV then yeah its likely overkill anyways. www.c4forums.com has an area where you can buy/sell C4 equipment so maybe offload your unused c4 gear to a happy home vs a landfill.


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## eatenbacktolife

Let's see if we hit the I hate _particular control system_ bingo


Being held hostage
Was ripped off, because people who service luxury items should always work for free. Seen commonly in people who started life on third base and think they hit a home run
Didn't even mention what the problem was
Largely incomprehensible posting
Can seemingly find this forum after the 12 year old IT genius down the street fixed everything, but not before or during


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## ezlotogura

eatenbacktolife said:


> Let's see if we hit the I hate _particular control system_ bingo
> 
> 
> Being held hostage
> Was ripped off, because people who service luxury items should always work for free. Seen commonly in people who started life on third base and think they hit a home run
> Didn't even mention what the problem was
> Largely incomprehensible posting
> Can seemingly find this forum after the 12 year old IT genius down the street fixed everything, but not before or during


you missed 1 more
profile created within the last 24 hours and all posts on the forum only relate to this awful product


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## thebland

Hilarious!!! But true!!


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## bryantc

eatenbacktolife said:


> Let's see if we hit the I hate _particular control system_ bingo


Let's see if we hit the _particular control system defenders_ bingo


Your dealer is crap
Find a better dealer
Control4 is awesome and perfect and nothing is ever wrong with it
Its your fault
Find a better dealer
You're an idiot for wanting it to just work
Find a better dealer
Find a better dealer
Did I miss any?


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## ezlotogura

bryantc said:


> Let's see if we hit the _particular control system defenders_ bingo
> 
> 
> Your dealer is crap
> Find a better dealer
> Control4 is awesome and perfect and nothing is ever wrong with it
> Its your fault
> Find a better dealer
> You're an idiot for wanting it to just work
> Find a better dealer
> Find a better dealer
> Did I miss any?


you dont find it odd that the OP and several others in this thread, including the latest, are brand new to the forum, create a profile, bash something, and never come back?

Control4's business model may not be for some, that is fine. Its expensive, it is semi closed, pricing is not always transparent, you need a dealer, etc. It is pretty much the anti-AVSForum solution - got it. That does not equate to trash/rip it out. There is a happy medium in there. I'd bet there are way more happy C4 customers than upset ones, otherwise they would not be in business.

I just wish some of these posters who trash it would come back and say what is wrong, what they tried to resolve it, etc. If my denon amp when it would be odd to create a profile, come to AVS, say my denon amp stinks and then run away and never come back to hear people's thoughts, helpful replies, etc


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## bryantc

ezlotogura said:


> you dont find it odd that the OP and several others in this thread, including the latest, are brand new to the forum, create a profile, bash something, and never come back?


Are you implying something? What do they have to gain from bashing it. If they are like me they just came here to vent and they already washed their hands of the whole system. It makes sense that the kind of person who gets Control4 is not likely to be active on a DIY forum, or any forum for that matter.

There are plenty of long term members with complaints too.


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## FlyingDiver

bryantc said:


> Are you implying something? What do they have to gain from bashing it. If they are like me they just came here to vent and they already washed their hands of the whole system. It makes sense that the kind of person who gets Control4 is not likely to be active on a DIY forum, or any forum for that matter.


If that's all they want to do, they should stick to Yelp or Google. No one here is going to take a hit and run complainer seriously.


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## ezlotogura

bryantc said:


> Are you implying something? What do they have to gain from bashing it. If they are like me they just came here to vent and they already washed their hands of the whole system. It makes sense that the kind of person who gets Control4 is not likely to be active on a DIY forum, or any forum for that matter.
> 
> There are plenty of long term members with complaints too.


I do not believe there is some campaign to troll Control4 on the AVS Forum, if so its a really pointless campaign. That said I am just pointing out this fact that an overwhelming amount of people in the 1-2 main C4 bashing threads have created accounts here, posted to rant and never came back. To me, that is odd, and I am just calling that out in case someone is on the internet googling if they should invest in a C4 system (or Savant, or Crestron) and they are reading reviews and stumble on these threads, I'd want them to realize that those posting here just post and run. Conspiracy who knows, I doubt it and I have other things in my life that concern me more than internet trolls. I just call it as I see it. Most of them when pressed if they got 2-3 quotes, if they asked for references from other clients of the dealer go quiet. If you did not do your homework shame on you. I know a lot of people in the home construction trade (electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc). In that trade, and in life, there are 3 sides to the story - your side, the other side and the truth which is usually somewhere in the middle.



FlyingDiver said:


> If that's all they want to do, they should stick to Yelp or Google. No one here is going to take a hit and run complainer seriously.


Agreed - people hate the car analogy but for the most part, you are buying a car from a dealership, not the manufacture. The dealership is servicing it, not the manufacture. So I own a Hyundai, if I had problems I'd write a bad review of the dealership and how they handled my situation on Yelp, Google, some Facebook local forum or whatever (personally I never do this because I believe in karma but that's another story). Hyundai sells I dunno 100,000's of cars in the US a year. I am sure they are not worthless garbage. Can someone have bad service at a dealership either during the sale, or during a check up service appointment, they certainly can but why would I go to a general car forum and bash Hyundai if its the dealership lacking in service? I'd take my investment (the car) to another dealership or service provider. So your C4 install didnt work out - maybe your expectations were not in line, maybe your dealer was awful, but that doesn't mean C4 is crap, it means you had a bad experience.

If you want a fully open DIY system C4 should not be your system of choice, period. I agree there, its not a system for everyone. To say it is crap is erroneous - it is a computer system processing 0's and 1's. It works.


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## eatenbacktolife

bryantc said:


> Let's see if we hit the _particular control system defenders_ bingo
> 
> 
> Your dealer is crap
> Find a better dealer
> Control4 is awesome and perfect and nothing is ever wrong with it
> Its your fault
> Find a better dealer
> You're an idiot for wanting it to just work
> Find a better dealer
> Find a better dealer
> Did I miss any?


 You need a hug bro? Check my post history if you think I'm going to defend dealers or the morons that work for them; or the manufacturers who dump broken garbage out there for the end user to deal with.

Most likely if you had a bad experience, yes your dealer is probably dogshit. I'd bet the majority of "AV techs" can't wire a relay or even know how one works. They can roll a spliff with one hand and their eyes closed though

You want to know the secret though? None of this is even difficult

I've never used Control 4, and I'm guessing like all other manufacturers they ship broken garbage that eventually ends up installed at your house. Would be cool if your dealer caught this stuff, but anyone with common sense probably long left this industry

I wonder how many times "held hostage" has been used in this thread. Always amazed someone can drop 75K on a luxury product like this without a modicum of research and then *shocked pikachu face* not understand why their precious nephew who's a computer whiz isn't allowed access to the software to try and fix it

Or - how often no value is attached to this kind of work. I see it here, when someone is _shocked_ that one of those "ripoff" dealers expects to get paid to come in and try and fix some other dealer's ****-show of a system. Wanna know why that equipment that hardly works makes it past the dealer into your house? Because AV companies have done an excellent job of devaluing their work so who has time for that ****?


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## cmcjo

Just a reminder that Control4 has a customer advocacy program that really works. If you had a real Control4 dealer install your system with new parts, and you have issues, then make the call. 

I’m saying this because alot of people buy used parts on ebay and either get hacked software or a hack programmer for cheap, and try to integrate components that may not be supported. 

That’s why Control4 is to designed to be configured , installed and programmed by trained techs. It’s a 4 day in class program. 

The Control4 advocacy group will make it right. Recently , they reimbursed another end user $28,000 for his botched install. The dealer gets terminated and the end user gets a new dealer who makes everyone happy. 

Working with the right dealer is the way to go. If your a diy person like many are , then Control4 has 2 versions of software tools for you to do everything after the initial setup. (Except add new hardware) 

Control4 wants to make sure you are installing supported hardware , and dealers should know this, and if they don’t , they have tools to find out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## stlcity

Hi guys, I had a control 4 system installed for my new home last year. Have not had any problems with it. But it is not programmed up to its full potential. Dealer installed the system correctly as far as I can tell. Problem I am running into is that I cannot get the dealer to come back to get the programming done. I have tried multiple ways to get in touch with him to no avail. 

Question for u guys is: does anyone have any experience with having their system remotely programmed: from a dealer who's not in the same city. If so, is there any recommendations? There are not too many dealers in the city that I live in(western PA). 

Overall, my experience with Control 4 has been very positive. I do not have the time or the knowledge to tweak myself and it is helpful if I can find someone reliable that I can reach out to. With my present dealer, the other worry is if the system has an issue: not sure if I will be able to get in touch with him to resolve it. 

Thanks in advance.


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## pjp

cmcjo said:


> Just a reminder that Control4 has a customer advocacy program that really works. If you had a real Control4 dealer install your system with new parts, and you have issues, then make the call...


Thanks -- this is *great* info. Wish I knew this a long time ago. Unfortunately, I won't be at the house with the C4 system for a while due to Covid restricting our travel, but will do this a soon as I'm able to get there.


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## cmcjo

stlcity said:


> Hi guys, I had a control 4 system installed for my new home last year. Have not had any problems with it. But it is not programmed up to its full potential. Dealer installed the system correctly as far as I can tell. Problem I am running into is that I cannot get the dealer to come back to get the programming done. I have tried multiple ways to get in touch with him to no avail.
> 
> Question for u guys is: does anyone have any experience with having their system remotely programmed: from a dealer who's not in the same city. If so, is there any recommendations? There are not too many dealers in the city that I live in(western PA).
> 
> Overall, my experience with Control 4 has been very positive. I do not have the time or the knowledge to tweak myself and it is helpful if I can find someone reliable that I can reach out to. With my present dealer, the other worry is if the system has an issue: not sure if I will be able to get in touch with him to resolve it.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I hear this all the time. There are many hit and run providers in all lines of work. I am sending you a PM on how to get help


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## ezlotogura

stlcity said:


> Hi guys, I had a control 4 system installed for my new home last year. Have not had any problems with it. But it is not programmed up to its full potential. Dealer installed the system correctly as far as I can tell. Problem I am running into is that I cannot get the dealer to come back to get the programming done. I have tried multiple ways to get in touch with him to no avail.
> 
> Question for u guys is: does anyone have any experience with having their system remotely programmed: from a dealer who's not in the same city. If so, is there any recommendations? There are not too many dealers in the city that I live in(western PA).
> 
> Overall, my experience with Control 4 has been very positive. I do not have the time or the knowledge to tweak myself and it is helpful if I can find someone reliable that I can reach out to. With my present dealer, the other worry is if the system has an issue: not sure if I will be able to get in touch with him to resolve it.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


PM me and I can give you some specific names of remote programmers. Or you can do your own research here - www.c4forums.com - a great community forum with end users and dealers sharing information. there is a sub forum on there dedicated to remote dealers offering their services. Read their posts, read reviews on their work, sync up and take it from there. Most of those remote dealers are also very active on threads offering advice to people doing their own programming so you can get a flavor of their personalities etc to make sure it will jive well with you.

any questions just let me know.


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