# What is least expensive Vertical Stretch scaler with HDMI ?



## DaGamePimp

Curious as to what the current value leader would be regarding a Vertical Stretch capable scaler with HDMI in/out .


- Thanks ,

-- Jason


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## Uatatoka

I think the Lumagen DVI ($1000) or Lumagen HDP at the $1200 mark brand new are the current value leaders. They have DVI connectors but accept DVI or HDMI inputs/outputs (444 or 422 component). The HDP offers up to 1080p output and true 1080i deinterlacing (DVI is limited to 720p/1080i output max).


The DVDO Iscan HD+ is the bare minimum I believe at $600-$800 (used though) with DVI. The newer DVDO scalers with HDMI (VP20, VP30, and VP50) start at $1600-$3000 respectively.


Mike


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## rrobinson2000

You should also consider the Key Digital HDMI 4X1 switcher/scaler. I got mine this week and literally in less than a few minutes I was vertically stretching 1080i from my Toshiba XA2 HD-DVD and downscaling to my Sony Cineza HS-51A PJ at its native 720P panel size! Sweet price at $599 brand new! It may not have all the bells and whistles of other higher end scalers but when it come to simply vertically stretching the image it gets the job done.


Here is a link to the Power Buy (not sure how may are left at this point either)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=790055


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## Chris1971




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rrobinson2000* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You should also consider the Key Digital HDMI 4X1 switcher/scaler. I got mine this week and literally in less than a few minutes I was vertically stretching 1080i from my Toshiba XA2 HD-DVD and downscaling to my Sony Cineza HS-51A PJ at its native 720P panel size! Sweet price at $599 brand new! It may not have all the bells and whistles of other higher end scalers but when it come to simply vertically stretching the image it gets the job done.
> 
> 
> Here is a link to the Power Buy (not sure how may are left at this point either)
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=790055




Sounds like a good, low cost, add-on to the JVC RS-1, if it doesn't ship with 2.35 stretch.


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## DaGamePimp

Thank you both very much for the input







.


That Key Digital unit sounds like it would be perfect for my basic needs ( I just so happen to require a switcher too ) .


----- Jason


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## Fishysan

I was like ooohhh also - but do note it doesn't accept 1080p input or have a passthrough mode, so if you are wanting to pump through 24p and the like from an HD player...


Though, if you have a good processor in your PJ ( RS1 ) you could fire through 1080i?


It's odd though - says it takes only 1080i in but outputs 1080p


See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post9644728 


Either way - very nice device for the $$ on the powerbuy.


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## rrobinson2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fishysan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was like ooohhh also - but do note it doesn't accept 1080p input or have a passthrough mode, so if you are wanting to pump through 24p and the like from an HD player...
> 
> 
> Though, if you have a good processor in your PJ ( RS1 ) you could fire through 1080i?
> 
> 
> It's odd though - says it takes only 1080i in but outputs 1080p
> 
> 
> See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post9644728
> 
> 
> Either way - very nice device for the $$ on the powerbuy.



I too was initially concerned with the lack of 1080p input but considering that my main motivation was to vertically stretch for low cost, then having the scaler de-interlace a 1080i input wasn't such a big deal since I was still getting the advantage of the increased resolution that 1080 provides anyway. When I do upgrade to a native 1080p PJ (someday) then I'm glad that this unit does output 1080p since my projector won't have to de-interlace then (and I'm hoping that this unit does a better job of de-interlacing anyway). From what I found the only way to get 1080p input was to spend twice as much and I couldn't justify the price of what I think is something that you won't even notice in the picture (there are many other threads out there discussing the virtues of 1080p vs 1080i so you may want to verify my assumptions here).


One other note though is that I have not quite settled on a plan if I leave my horizontal expansion lens (HE) lens in place and view 16:9 content (from my cablebox lets say). I think this is what's considered "Panamorph II mode" where the picture is squeezed horizontally so that if an HE lens is still in place then it re-stretches the squeezed picture so that 16:9 content is displayed within the 2.35:1 screen (black PJ bars on the left and right). At the moment (haven't had time to really try out more options) I don't see this as a function of the Key Digital scaler (the horizontal stretch that is). The only downside here is that the lens would therefore need to be removed when watching 16:9 content (unless you like watching short fat people). Now thats not too bad since there are those who say thats what you *should* be removing the lens anyway for 16:9 content to maximize the PJ panel output, etc...


[EDIT]


I just checked and indeed the scaler supports "Pillarbox" mode which is exactly what you need to watch 16:9 content (w/o moving the lens). So now, I'm happy to say that I can leave the lens in place and with a few clicks of the scaler remote switch between 16:9 and 2.35:1 content with ease! Nice!


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## raoul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chris1971* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sounds like a good, low cost, add-on to the JVC RS-1, if it doesn't ship with 2.35 stretch.



It doesn't support passthrough, all signal goes through the processor and as a result it won't accept 1080p, not good for bluray or PS3.


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## tvted




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raoul* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It doesn't support passthrough, all signal goes through the processor and as a result it won't accept 1080p, not good for bluray or PS3.



I believe the PS3 (as well as all BD players) can be selected to output 1080i as its container for the 24P signal - shouldn't be an issue. It makes no sense to market players that cannot output 1080i as the vast majority of HDTV sets currently do not support 1080*P* on their inputs.


as an aside HD DVD is also 1080p24 on disc - it uses 1080i as its container.


ted


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## rrobinson2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raoul* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It doesn't support passthrough, all signal goes through the processor and as a result it won't accept 1080p, not good for bluray or PS3.



Good point. I of course only have the Toshiba (not Bluray) so I didnt check that. Curious, the Bluray players dont also output 1080i?


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## rrobinson2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tvted* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I believe the PS3 (as well as all BD players) can be selected to output 1080i as its container for the 24P signal - shouldn't be an issue. It makes no sense to market players that cannot output 1080i as the vast majority of HDTV sets currently do not support 1080*P* on their inputs.
> 
> 
> as an aside HD DVD is also 1080p24 on disc - it uses 1080i as its container.
> 
> 
> ted



Ted,


Thanks for the confirmation. I share your opinion on 1080i vs 1080p. So it would appear that this little scaler *will* work with PS3 and Bluray without no noticable degradation of quality. Cool.


Rob


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## raoul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rrobinson2000* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I too was initially concerned with the lack of 1080p input but considering that my main motivation was to vertically stretch for low cost, then having the scaler de-interlace a 1080i input wasn't such a big deal since I was still getting the advantage of the increased resolution that 1080 provides anyway. When I do upgrade to a native 1080p PJ (someday) then I'm glad that this unit does output 1080p since my projector won't have to de-interlace then (and I'm hoping that this unit does a better job of de-interlacing anyway). From what I found the only way to get 1080p input was to spend twice as much and I couldn't justify the price of what I think is something that you won't even notice in the picture (there are many other threads out there discussing the virtues of 1080p vs 1080i so you may want to verify my assumptions here).
> 
> 
> One other note though is that I have not quite settled on a plan if I leave my horizontal expansion lens (HE) lens in place and view 16:9 content (from my cablebox lets say). I think this is what's considered "Panamorph II mode" where the picture is squeezed horizontally so that if an HE lens is still in place then it re-stretches the squeezed picture so that 16:9 content is displayed within the 2.35:1 screen (black PJ bars on the left and right). At the moment (haven't had time to really try out more options) I don't see this as a function of the Key Digital scaler (the horizontal stretch that is). The only downside here is that the lens would therefore need to be removed when watching 16:9 content (unless you like watching short fat people). Now thats not too bad since there are those who say thats what you *should* be removing the lens anyway for 16:9 content to maximize the PJ panel output, etc...
> 
> 
> [EDIT]
> 
> 
> I just checked and indeed the scaler supports "Pillarbox" mode which is exactly what you need to watch 16:9 content (w/o moving the lens). So now, I'm happy to say that I can leave the lens in place and with a few clicks of the scaler remote switch between 16:9 and 2.35:1 content with ease! Nice!



Good news. Where are the docs? I was looking for an online PDF, I'd like to do this too.


R-S


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## rrobinson2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raoul* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good news. Where are the docs? I was looking for an online PDF, I'd like to do this too.
> 
> 
> R-S


 http://www.keydigital.com/documents/...Manual_000.pdf


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## mustang5o

The PS3 can auto detect the resolution of your display or you can set it manually. Anything from 480i-1080p.


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## raoul

I have a strong preference to let the JVC do all the deinterlacing and have the key digital just handle the squeeze part. Now, question is, my cable box passes 480i/720p/1080i to my HD+ right now, and it does the scaling and outputs to 1440x788. Can I get this key digital box to pass the 720P signal to the projector only having squeezed and pillarboxed the image as well as pass 1080i to the projector when the cable box outputs 1080i?


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## Allen

The manual lists a pass through mode where the resolution is not changed. Perhaps the vertical stretch will work with pass through mode to give you what you describe. I for one hope so.


Allen


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## rrobinson2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Allen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The manual lists a pass through mode where the resolution is not changed. Perhaps the vertical stretch will work with pass through mode to give you what you describe. I for one hope so.
> 
> 
> Allen



Its been reported that the pass-thru mode (although documented in the manual) is not available for this scaler. That being said I'm not sure how I would know that its not working since I use 1080i from my cablebox and have had the scaler output 1080i to the PJ with no problems (does this mean pass-thru?). I was also able to vertically stretch the 1080i signal no problem with this setup (as well as horizontal squeeze).


What I think the scaler does *not* do though is what I think raoul was asking and that is does the scaler allow for "autosensing" multiple input resolutions on the same source input, and then perform the proper scaling to output a constant resolution to the PJ. For me this wasnt an issue since I had the cablebox as source #1 (1080i) and the HD-DVD as source #2 (1080i).


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## Allen

I think the only report I saw said it would not pass through 1080P. The manual indicates it does pass through (Of course the manual could be wrong as you said). I think Raoul wants the scaler to pass through the already scalled signal from his cable box to the display.


I know nothing other than what I have read to be sure.


Allen


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## JDLIVE

If you read the links provided, you'll see passthrough of 1080p would not work.


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## Allen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JDLIVE* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you read the links provided, you'll see passthrough of 1080p would not work.



I think I agreed with that. The question is will it use passthrough for 720P and 1080i.


Allen


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## A/Vspec

I think Key Digital could make a simple HDMI IN/OUT box that would take the native signal and apply a vertical stretch to the image and then pass the native signal on. I would think a box like that would not be all that expensive.


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## rrobinson2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A/Vspec* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think Key Digital could make a simple HDMI IN/OUT box that would take the native signal and apply a vertical stretch to the image and then pass the native signal on. I would think a box like that would not be all that expensive.



That would indeed be awesome! Perhaps to make it more attractive it could basically be an apspect ratio "box" so that it could be useful to others as well - i.e. also does horizontal squeeze, etc... But perhaps stretching and squeezing digitially is not that trivial and you might as well do other things (like scaling) while you are at it? A $199 "box" that could maybe switch two source (most popular for cable and dvd) would be the sweet spot I would think!?


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## JDLIVE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Allen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think I agreed with that. The question is will it use passthrough for 720P and 1080i.
> 
> 
> Allen



Ah, I missed that distinction.


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## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rrobinson2000* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That would indeed be awesome! Perhaps to make it more attractive it could basically be an apspect ratio "box" so that it could be useful to others as well - i.e. also does horizontal squeeze, etc... But perhaps stretching and squeezing digitially is not that trivial and you might as well do other things (like scaling) while you are at it? A $199 "box" that could maybe switch two source (most popular for cable and dvd) would be the sweet spot I would think!?



I'm getting the RS-1 and would love to have a simple, inexpensive box like that. I will be using mostly high end sources (hd-dvd, blu-ray, 360, PS3) so I don't really need the video scaling aspect, I just need something that can vertically stretch the image. Being able to switch (2) sources would be enough for me also since I would only need to use it with my Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players. Hopefully a manufacturer will step up and provide and inexpensive way of doing this.


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## Allen

OK, I have some preliminary test results.


Between a careful reading of the manual and some actual testing on the unit it does appear that there is a pass through mode, which is achieved by setting the output resolution to the same as the input resolution. It appears to work that way, and the manual describes this as the "pass through mode".


It seems that at least a 1080I pass through works fine, and you can then apply the various aspect ratio corrections to the signal.


While I didn't have my lens set up to really look at picture quality, I can say that the addition of the scaler to the chain between my Toshiba HD A1 and my Panny 900 projector had no noticeable effect on the picture quality when set to 1080I in (this happens automatically as it senses the signal) and 1080I out set as the output resolution. (You might suggest using 720P for both, but I have it on 1080I mostly because of the very poor results for 720P output on the HD A1 before the firmware updates. After the updates I could notice no difference between the two settings, so I just left it at 1080I.)


After achieving the apparent pass through, I then experimented with the aspect ratio changes, and they all seemed to work as advertised. I looked mostly at the vertical zoom setting, and it did indeed stretch the picture vertically to fill the screen, and while the picture was now tall and skinny, it did not appear to have any other artifacts.


The next test will add the lens (Panamorph 380) into the mix, and I will give you my observations. If this one test, as well as testing the pillarbox function prove successful, then we will at least have a box that will provide the needed stretch for CIH, regardless of how it handles actually scaling and the many other corrective functions available on the box.


For me, the aspect ratio control alone is worth the price of admission, and any other benefit of the box is gravy.


By the way, it does look like it will pass through 1080P 60, as there is an output resolution selection for that. What is not present is any 1080P 24 support. I have nothing that offers a 1080P output in either 60 or 24 to test with.


Allen


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## acegamer

Thanks for the report Allen.







Keep us updated. This may be the same route that I go with to get vertical stretch for use with the RS-1.


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## gmanhdtv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acegamer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the report Allen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep us updated. This may be the same route that I go with to get vertical stretch for use with the RS-1.



I will second that with a big thank you! As I am also looking for a hdmi switch solution along with the needed aspect ratio control for the RS1 this may be the most affordable and efficient way to achieve both.










Thanks,



Glenn


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## gmanhdtv

Allen,


Another thing to test if possible, hdmi audio. Does the Key Digital switch and pass the hdmi audio as well as the video? Many receivers and switches apparently have issues with hdmi audio. Please keep us informed.


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## Allen

According to the manual and the configuration of the device, it will pass anything that is in the HDMI input to the HDMI output, including the audio. It functions as a "true HDMI repeater".


In addition, it has toslink, PCM coax and LR stereo inputs for all 4 inputs. The output has a toslink out, a LR out, and perhaps a PCM coax out. The maual has a glitch in the picture labeling, and I won't be able to check it until tonight. What is not clear is whether it will take a toslink, PCM or LR input and add it to the HDMI out, I would guess probably not.


Testing the audio capabilities will have to wait until I move my Denon 4806 out to the system, as I am using a non-HDMI capable AV receiver presently. Not sure that I wouldn't be using the scaler after the sound is extracted by the AV receiver anyway.


Allen


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## wcaughey

Also jumped on this power buy.


I'll see if I can also help answer some questions with my setup when it arrives next week.


I'm mainly interested in using this scaler as a vertical stretch device for my 720p projector setup (inputing 1080i from either the tosh hd-a1 or xbox 360 player)


I'm using a Yammy HTR-5990 so I'll try a few things with hdmi audio as I will actually need multi-audio output for a setup I'm trying to rig (audio with a dell 24" 1080p + the a/v audio with the Z3 projector). I know I could probably move my 5.1 tosh hd dvd player down for the hdmi input, but I guess I'll have to use the crusty 2 channel HDMI audio output of the ViP622 for now.


Ok, if this chain works, I actually will be able to test a 1080p30 output from the device when it arrives (component output from my xbox360 to yammy a/v, hdmi output to scaler, hdmi-dvi (hdcp compliant too) to my 24" gateway 1080p). Will have to wait till all this nifty new stuff shows up next week, but I'll see if it works.


Just to add some fuel to the fire, why would it have inputs for the hdmi sources and then cancel the ability to use them if there happened to be audio on the hdmi stream? I'm sure you can just disable the use of audio on that hdmi input and substitute any one of the inputs. In that case, though, I bet you would definitely have to use the identical audio output mechanism. At least that's what I am thinking.


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## Allen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wcaughey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also jumped on this power buy.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Ok, if this chain works, I actually will be able to test a 1080p30 output from the device when it arrives (component output from my xbox360 to yammy a/v, hdmi output to scaler, hdmi-dvi (hdcp compliant too) to my 24" gateway 1080p). Will have to wait till all this nifty new stuff shows up next week, but I'll see if it works.
> 
> 
> ...



The available resolutions are all either 50hz or 60hz, doesn't look like it supports 1080p30, but I am not sure about that.


Further testing with lens in place...


I added the lens to the mix last night. It is a panamorph 380. I have little experience with lenses, having only seen an IscoIII at a demo. From just a quick look at the image (actual content, no test patterns) I could discern no obvious affects on the image. The image was still straight arrow lined up with the screen top and bottom edges with the lens in or out of place.


As I am constructing a projection booth I am using the top shelf of a rack mount system for the projector, so it was as simple as sliding the projector back and setting the lens in front of it. I had to re-zoom the projector lens to accommodate the backward movement of the projector, but the final result was an image that had no discernable distortion or CA. Again only using actual content to measure.


What happened to be playing was an HD DVD with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio, so inserting the lens gave me a wide fat picture on my screen. I selected vertical zoom on the scaler, and it stretched the picture to fill the wide screen and I needed no adjustments.


I have been zooming the projector to achieve the CH, and it looked pretty good zoomed. With the lens it was at least as good a picture (Hard to tell if better in apparent resolution) but much brighter. A significant enough improvement to easily justify the lens over the zoom. (This is from a guy that was pretty happy with the zoom)


I then changed to another HD DVD that had a 1.85:1 aspect ratio. I changed the scaler to pillarbox mode, and the image squeezed to the apparently correct aspect ratio. (I say apparently as it still fit the screen top and bottom, and did not appear at all distorted. But as my screen is 235:1, there are no borders to gage the width. If it is slightly off, it is not visible.)


The quality of the pillarbox image varied depending on the source material. I tried the movie, and later the output from a DTV HR20 HD DVR. The movie sources looked pretty good, some of the HDTV looked real good, some was less so, depending on the quality. All of it was watchable, and all of the material that I would tend to watch in the theater was fine, but the image was noticeably better for 16:9 without the lens in the path for some material, like live video (HD News broadcast etc.)


I am guessing I would make the choice to leave the lens in place and use pillarbox rather than removing the lens, and the results were very satisfactory. I might change my mind if I got a motorized sled.


Another thing I noticed was that when I zoomed the lens I always had dark vertical borders, so vertical masking was not as important. When you use the pillarbox, the image compresses to the appropriate width, but the light splash to the sides is greater as you are generating "Black" pillars. It is comparable to the pillars on 4:3 material within the 16:9 frame. Side masking will be important when you use pillarbox instead of removing the lens.


Another thing I noticed that is a small con is the way the remote works on the scaler. Though there is an "aspect" button on the remote, you have to first push "menu" then step through the aspect ratios, then push "exit", though the aspect ratio's change as you are stepping through them. Works okay, but more button pushes than I would like.


Will post more later, will attempt to answer any questions.


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## A/Vspec

For those that don't want to purchase a scaler I have found an alternative that works fairly well.


I have a Snazio HD/DVD player that lets you playback .ts (Hi-Def recordings) files and also archived DVD files from a server.


I have found that one of the DVI output resolutions will do the vertical stretch for you... sort of.


If you set the output to 1280x1024 you can then use the projector zoom mode (at least with the Sony Pearl) to get the correct 2.35:1 image.


This I beleive is the current, cheapest way of playing back DVD and HI-Def .Ts content without a costly scaler or building a HTPC at less then $300.


I have not been able to notice any loss in detail using this method.


I will most likely keep using this method for playback until someone like Key Digital comes out with a cost effective vertical stretch box or a company releases a HD/BR DVD combo unit with a vertical stretch mode built in.


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## TorAtle

I can't really see how you can stretch interlaced video without assembling the odd and even fields first. Are you sure you're not ending up with an upscaled 1280x540 signal?


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## A/Vspec

1280x1024 is considered a computer format and so I believe is output as a progessive signal from the player. The Sony only shows the signal as 1280x1024 and does not say if it is i or p.


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## TorAtle

Actually I was referring to the Key Digital box, but I think the same applies to the Snazio. Inverse telecine of 1080i signals are a well known problem.


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## kits

Let's hope some nice(read cheap!) Vertical Stretch only 1080p scaler comes up in time for RS1 delivery date. Reading Art's thread about RS1 wants me to jump on RS1 and maybe even consider poor man's zoom until some cheap VS scaler is invented for 1080p.


Art projected RS on his 153" 16X9 AT screen and is still very impressed with the picture.


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## Allen

Now that I have used the switch and the lens for awhile, I have fewer reservations about the pillarbox mode. If the source material is good, it remains good after the squeeze. Earlier reservations were influenced by mediocre source material in the 185:1 ratio.


Allen


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## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Allen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now that I have used the switch and the lens for awhile, I have fewer reservations about the pillarbox mode. If the source material is good, it remains good after the squeeze. Earlier reservations were influenced by mediocre source material in the 185:1 ratio.
> 
> 
> Allen



So Allen, are you saying you are now more inclined to just leave the lens in place? The only thing I don't like that you mentioned is the number of steps to switch back and forth from 2.35 material to 1.85. It would be nice to make that happen automatically depending on source - but I suppose the RS-232 could be used for that?


Craig.


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## wcaughey

Ok, maybe someone else can also test this issue I'm having with this scaler and standard definition dvds played on my 360.


The setup:


Now I'm well aware that with normal dvd's the xbox360 itself has a vertical stretch mode. I have experience with a lumagen hdp as well, and never had this problem. I've tried a couple different dvds with no difference in replication. Interestingly, only when using the scaler's vertical stretch instead of the xbox360's stretch does this issue appear.


The input to the scaler from the 360 is 720x480p60Hz and the output is 1280x720p60hz to my sanyo z3. There is a yamaha htr-5990 in the chain between the xbox360 and scaler but it has never been a problem.


The problem:


Mostly noticeable by looking at the top left corner of the screen, a thick scan line will frequently appear (with a 50" tall screen, the line of interest is about 3" thick in vertical height) and move down to the center point of the screen before dissapearing. I can only really see it on the left side, I've never noticed it on the right side of the screen.


Perhaps the black areas above and below the film image are causing problems with the deinterlacing, at least that's what my first impulse is. The regular definition Being fed in at 480p by the xbox360 dvd player and then having to vertical scale to output a 720p image might be causing problems. I think this scaler may be having issues vertical stretching a 480p input. Upscaling 480p to 720p or 1080i is not a problem at all, but adding the vertical stretch is hurting things along the way.


I tried outputting at 1080i instead of 720p, this produced thinner bars (vertically) and less frequently, but they are still there and in the same place.


When the image is vertically scaled with the 360s built in vertical scaler, none of these artifacts appear at all.


Note, in the hd satilite movies I've watched, no artifacting has occured (1080i input to scaler, 720p output to projector). Also, there was no problem with HD DVDs output from the 360 at the same resolutions input and output.


Can anyone else using this scaler verify any distracting scan line/artifacting going on with 480p input with 720p output? I'll try another dvd player tomorrow with 480p as well.


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## rrobinson2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Allen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Another thing I noticed that is a small con is the way the remote works on the scaler. Though there is an "aspect" button on the remote, you have to first push "menu" then step through the aspect ratios, then push "exit", though the aspect ratio's change as you are stepping through them. Works okay, but more button pushes than I would like.



Try just pressing the "Aspect" button again on the remote (without first pressing menu and exit). Mine works just fine this way. You do need to press menu/exit when using the front panel on the device but the remote works by just pressing "Aspect" only (at least mine does anyway - version 3.5 firmware).


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## Allen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So Allen, are you saying you are now more inclined to just leave the lens in place? The only thing I don't like that you mentioned is the number of steps to switch back and forth from 2.35 material to 1.85. It would be nice to make that happen automatically depending on source - but I suppose the RS-232 could be used for that?
> 
> 
> Craig.



Yes, I am. It makes the need for a sled much less important, though I suppose I would use one if I had it. However, with good source material leaving the lens in place is more than satisfactory.


I am sure the RS232 connection would solve the command problems, as there are discreet codes given.


I am going to try harder to see if the aspect ratio button works on the remote as rrobinson mentions. It is intuitive that it would work that way, maybe I just wasn't patient enough to make it work. Now that I am more familiar with the workings of the device it will be more apparent. Will let you know later today if it works, though I am inclined not to dispute rrobinson.


Allen


----------



## Jagercola

So is the bottom line that this scaler will do the required stretch modes? Also, since it has the bandwidth to accept 1080i60, can it be input to accept 1080p24? If so would it output that as well?


----------



## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Allen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, I am. It makes the need for a sled much less important, though I suppose I would use one if I had it. However, with good source material leaving the lens in place is more than satisfactory.
> 
> 
> I am sure the RS232 connection would solve the command problems, as there are discreet codes given.
> 
> 
> I am going to try harder to see if the aspect ratio button works on the remote as rrobinson mentions. It is intuitive that it would work that way, maybe I just wasn't patient enough to make it work. Now that I am more familiar with the workings of the device it will be more apparent. Will let you know later today if it works, though I am inclined not to dispute rrobinson.
> 
> 
> Allen



Thanks Allen. Its looking more and more like this will be the best solution for me so I may jump on the powerbuy. If you don't mind, I would like to know if you are able to get the AR change with the 1 button on the remote. Not that I'm disputing rrobinson, I'd just like another confirmation.


----------



## TorAtle

I would suggest you guys check if you lose half the vertical resolution for HD sources before buying. Obviously that's not acceptable.


----------



## Jagercola

Why would you lose half?


----------



## rrobinson2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jagercola* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So is the bottom line that this scaler will do the required stretch modes? Also, since it has the bandwidth to accept 1080i60, can it be input to accept 1080p24? If so would it output that as well?



Yes, this scaler does do both Modes I and II (vertical stretch "VERT_ZOOM" and horizontal squeeze "PILLARBOX") with 1080i60 inputs. I am not aware of any way to do 1080p24 with it as is is not even a resolution choice from the menu. I would hope though that a firmware update would provide this feature as there seems to be a few resolution "slots" in the manual that are noted as "not used"- perhaps as place holders for future resolutions modes? (just wishful thinking on my part)


----------



## Jagercola

Since its a discontinued product, probably no firmware enchancements. It's a shame, because if this product did 1080p24 or 1080p48 or 1080p60, I'd be all over it.


----------



## TorAtle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jagercola* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why would you lose half?



Because to vertically stretch the picture you'd have to deinterlace first so that you have a complete frame to work with. Deinterlacing HD is no easy task, and I'm pretty sure this box just upscales each 1920x540 field so that it becomes a 1920x1080 frame.


So while doing an ok job for DVDs, this box is most probably making the picture worse for HD. At least thats what I think. Ask the manufacturer.


----------



## Allen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks Allen. Its looking more and more like this will be the best solution for me so I may jump on the powerbuy. If you don't mind, I would like to know if you are able to get the AR change with the 1 button on the remote. Not that I'm disputing rrobinson, I'd just like another confirmation.



rrobinson is right, the aspect ratio works off the remote, and there are discreet iput selectors. What was fooling me is when you select an aspect ratio off the remote directly, after the change the lcd screen stays on the aspect ratio instead of returning to the default resolution in resolution out screen. Doesn't make any difference thhough, you can just press exit if you want the default screen back.


Allen


----------



## rrobinson2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TorAtle* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Because to vertically stretch the picture you'd have to deinterlace first so that you have a complete frame to work with. Deinterlacing HD is no easy task, and I'm pretty sure this box just upscales each 1920x540 field so that it becomes a 1920x1080 frame.
> 
> 
> So while doing an ok job for DVDs, this box is most probably making the picture worse for HD. At least thats what I think. Ask the manufacturer.



Interesting... I'm not knowledgable in such matters but I do know the picture looks fantastic in HD with the vertical zoom (at least no worse than what it was before the scaler was in the chain). So this is either a happy or sad moment for me. Happy if there could possibly be a better picture than what I am already seeing! and sad if I bought something that "loses" 50% resolution. Could someone else please chime in here and let us know what this unit is really doing?


----------



## Allen

I am sure this doesn't apply to all sources, but as I understand the Toshiba HD DVD player, the the movies are on the disk in 1080P, but the player outputs it in 1080I. The difference is that each interlaced frame contains all the material for a whole frame. I think they explain it as a 1080I transport of 1080P material. This makes the job of deinterlacing the signal trivial, and the resulting image on a 1080P display has all the information as if it would have been 1080P all the way through.


I have no idea how this works with the scaler, but it would not be the problem that ordinary 1080I would bring to the deinterlacing task. Of course the scaler would have to to be programed to do this, and I don't know if it is.


Allen


----------



## BOSS10L

Has anyone 100% verified if this particular scaler can do the proper vertical stretch with HD DVD and Blu-Ray via HDMI?


----------



## Allen

I can't speak for Blu-ray, but it definitely does the V stretch for HD-DVD, as well as the pillarbox format if you want to avoid moving the lens for 1.78 or 1.85 material.


It only works with HDMI. There is no component or composite I/O.


I can see no reason why it wouldn't work for Blu-ray as long as you choose 1080I output.


Allen


----------



## BOSS10L

Thanks Allen. I've got a 900u, so I need a scaler to do the stretching for HD material.


----------



## TimB

Excuse the noob question .. I'm used to running a CRT FP, and am moving over to the dark side - or is that the bright side?


With regard to the Key Digital HDMI switcher on powerbuy and discussed a few posts ago. If you are routing your sources to this over HDMI, then are you routing audio from this back to the pre/pro? And does that mean that the pre/pro is always set to the same input - the one output from this device?


----------



## Allen

Depends on whether you put the switcher before or after the pre-pro. I would assume from your question you are putting it before the pre-pro, so yes, you can run audio through it to the pre-pro, and the pre-pro will remain on a single input.


You could also place the switcher after the pre-pro if you have enough inputs on your pre-pro, and then you would change inputs on the pre-pro, and leave the switcher on a single input, and use it to scale.


Allen


----------



## Uatatoka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TorAtle* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Because to vertically stretch the picture you'd have to deinterlace first so that you have a complete frame to work with. Deinterlacing HD is no easy task, and I'm pretty sure this box just upscales each 1920x540 field so that it becomes a 1920x1080 frame.
> 
> 
> So while doing an ok job for DVDs, this box is most probably making the picture worse for HD. At least thats what I think. Ask the manufacturer.




This is the main reason I wouldn't buy this product either (and why DVDO and Lumagen don't sell their products at such a low cost!). For 720p projectors I think it would fit the bill for most however.


----------



## FoolintheRain

I'm assuming the product is fully backward compatible with DVI? Meaning, my Denon 3910 has HDMI out, my Tosh XA1 has HDMI out. I currently use DVI from the Denon direct to my pj b/c it has DVI in. I currently use analog from the Tosh to my receiver to my pj (I have 3 componant ins and then one out to my projector).


So my question is, could I send HDMI from my Denon, HDMI from my Tosh to this "switch/scaler" and then use my exhisting DVI cable from the "switch/scaler" (with the cool little adapter of course) to my projector without any problems?


If so, I may have 1080p projector in my VERY near future


----------



## Allen

It would seem that it would work, but I don't have anything with a DVI in to test it with.


Allen


----------



## locopablo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FoolintheRain* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm assuming the product is fully backward compatible with DVI? Meaning, my Denon 3910 has HDMI out, my Tosh XA1 has HDMI out. I currently use DVI from the Denon direct to my pj b/c it has DVI in. I currently use analog from the Tosh to my receiver to my pj (I have 3 componant ins and then one out to my projector).
> 
> 
> So my question is, could I send HDMI from my Denon, HDMI from my Tosh to this "switch/scaler" and then use my exhisting DVI cable from the "switch/scaler" (with the cool little adapter of course) to my projector without any problems?
> 
> 
> If so, I may have 1080p projector in my VERY near future



I've got this switcher/scaler for a week now, and I think there is a problem with it, I have a Bravo D1 dvd player with DVI output and when I set the dvd player to output 1080i into the switcher/scaler, the color spacing get all screwed up( heavy blue an orange tint), I've tried to change the color spacing on the scaler as well as on the display to RGB and Y Pb Pr, but nothing solves the problem, I have no problem with color spacing when I set the output on the dvd player to 480p or 720p, but at those resolutions I get a nasty scrolling distortion line from the top to the middle of the screen, after that I tried my panasonic s97 dvd player with hdmi output, I set the player to 1080i connected it to the scaler and there was no color spacing problem, the picture was perfect no problems at 1080i, then I changed the panasonic output to 720p and later to 480p to see if the scrolling distortion line was fixed but no such luck, the distortion remained.

Anyone else have this distortion problem?

Does this unit accept 1080i over dvi?

Is my unit defective?


----------



## Allen

I have a Toshiba Hd-DVD HD1 which I have set to output 1080i, and an HR20 HD DVR, set to output 720P. The scaler feeds a Panny 900. I have none of your issues, but I am using HDMI on both sides of the scaler, with the scaler outputting 1080i for the hd-dvd and 720p for the DVR.


I know that some people were reporting colorspace problems when using dvi on some equipment (not the scaler), and this may be a related issue.


Not saying it isn't the scaler, I have no experience with it with DVI.


Allen


----------



## locopablo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Allen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a Toshiba Hd-DVD HD1 which I have set to output 1080i, and an HR20 HD DVR, set to output 720P. The scaler feeds a Panny 900. I have none of your issues, but I am using HDMI on both sides of the scaler, with the scaler outputting 1080i for the hd-dvd and 720p for the DVR.
> 
> 
> I know that some people were reporting colorspace problems when using dvi on some equipment (not the scaler), and this may be a related issue.
> 
> 
> Not saying it isn't the scaler, I have no experience with it with DVI.
> 
> 
> Allen



I received my new toshiba hd-xa2 yesterday and hooked up to the switcher/scaler when I set the player to 1080i via hdmi it works great, but when I switch it to 480p or 720p I get the same distortion as before, so there must be something wrong with switcher/scaler when the input is 480p or 720p because 1080i works great via hdmi.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Allen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I know that some people were reporting colorspace problems when using dvi on some equipment (not the scaler), and this may be a related issue.Allen



That is not the case in my situation because when I connect the bravo d1 dvd player via dvi directly to my hdmi display I get no color space issues at any resolution.



thank you


----------



## Allen

I run my HD DVR at 720p out through the scaler without any problem. I also switch to 480p out of the HD DVR to watch Battlestar Galactica to allow the proper zoom to compensate for the letteboxed output, and it works fine. (don't do this often, as sd TV on a big screen looks awful)


Way too many variables for me to say anything about your problems, but I am not seeing them here. Don't know why.


Allen


----------



## locopablo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Allen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I run my HD DVR at 720p out through the scaler without any problem. I also switch to 480p out of the HD DVR to watch Battlestar Galactica to allow the proper zoom to compensate for the letteboxed output, and it works fine. (don't do this often, as sd TV on a big screen looks awful)
> 
> 
> Way too many variables for me to say anything about your problems, but I am not seeing them here. Don't know why.
> 
> 
> Allen



I emailed Digital Connection and they say it must be a defective unit, I will take it back to them to have it replaced


thank you for your help Allen


----------



## Allen

If that proves to be the case it is good news. Good luck.


Allen


----------



## ebr

These appear to still be available and I'm about to pounce on it. The only thing holding me back is the possibility that this thing really is chopping 1080 into 540p. I have a 1080p projector and just need the vertical stretch for HD-DVD for my anamorphic lens.


Can anyone confirm that this unit delivers the full 1080 resolution to the projector?


----------



## Uatatoka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The only thing holding me back is the possibility that this thing really is chopping 1080 into 540p. I have a 1080p projector and just need the vertical stretch for HD-DVD for my anamorphic lens.



Unfortunately that is the standard quo for cheaper scalers (like this or the many built into 720p projectors). You'll get 1080p resolution, just not the full source resolution. Rather a 540p->1080p interpolated signal which acts as a video filter and slightly softens the image. It will still look good, but you're selling yourself short after spending the extra coin for a native 1080p projector.


Not trying to downplay an affordable switcher/scaler that can get you a valid CIH setup, but if you have 1080p projector you're better off in the long run with a lower end Lumagen HDP or HDQ which is guaranteed to get you the full 2MP of source resolution via inverse telecine (film) and motion adaptive deinterlacing (video). It takes some horsepower to do that which is why you won't find it in a simple scaler/switcher.


----------



## MoG

so do we have confirmation on what kind of processing this unit performs on 1080i material? i'm assuming it performs bob deinterlacing too, but was wondering if we know for certain what it does to a 1080i signal...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Uatatoka* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that is the standard quo for cheaper scalers (like this or the many built into 720p projectors). You'll get 1080p resolution, just not the full source resolution. Rather a 540p->1080p interpolated signal which acts as a video filter and slightly softens the image. It will still look good, but you're selling yourself short after spending the extra coin for a native 1080p projector.
> 
> 
> Not trying to downplay an affordable switcher/scaler that can get you a valid CIH setup, but if you have 1080p projector you're better off in the long run with a lower end Lumagen HDP or HDQ which is guaranteed to get you the full 2MP of source resolution via inverse telecine (film) and motion adaptive deinterlacing (video). It takes some horsepower to do that which is why you won't find it in a simple scaler/switcher.


----------



## ebr

The response I got from digital connection follows:


"...for 1080i output would be identical to 1080i input which would then be scaled vertically to fit the chosen zoom mode size (vertical stretch mode). "


This implies that the scaling and stretching are different processes and that 1080i signals will not be degraded.


I guess I'll find out as I ordered one and can easily compare my A1 picture with and without it.


----------



## Allen

Based on my experience and reading the posts, I would say that this scaler would not be a good choice for 1080P. It does appear to work pretty well for 720P, and at least initially with 1080i.


If you have a 720P projector, this scaler works pretty well. Obviously a more expensive scaler like Lumagen will be better.


I was watching 24 monday and they had a closeup of the woman in CTU that was thought to be a mole and later cleared. The closeup of her face was incredible, as you could see the texture of her lipstick and the sparkles in her eyes. This was with the lens in place and the scaler squeezing it to 16X9. It is not as good as the better scalers, but it is pretty good on a 720P projector for stretch and squeeze.


Probably not a good choice for 1080P projector.


Allen


----------



## ebr

Well, based on my eyeballs, it works just fine with a 1080p projector (1080i/p are the same as far as picture quality when de-interlaced). With my HD-DVD player anyway. I put it in line and set it to 1080i at both ends and there is no way you could convince me that it is chopping the picture to 540p. It is just as detailed and pristine as it is without the unit in place. And, the stretch mode works perfectly for my 2.35 setup.


Halleluja - well, almost. Strangely, what it doesn't work with is my HTPC.


Both the HD-DVD player and my HD-Tivo look just like they do without it in place so I'm happy there. But, it totally butchers the image from my HTPC. Feeding 1080i from it too but, for some reason it looks like its reducing the resolution to about 240p when I run the HTPC through it. I have no idea why this is and I've sent off an email to KD tech support but I'm sure I won't hear back until next week.


Ideally, I wouldn't really care about this problem with the HTPC because I planned to put this unit in line between my HD-DVD player and my Receiver. However, there is some sort of HDMI handshake issue or something with that setup as, even though the projector says its getting a 1080i image from the switcher, it is just a blank screen - no video or audio gets passed when it is in front of my AVR. If I put it between my AVR and my projector, it works like a champ (and has the added benefit of also working with my HDTivo which only has component out - that the AVR converts to HDMI). However, it butchers the HTPC image so I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.


I'm very happy to have found a $600 item that takes care of stretching HD-DVD for my 2.35 setup. Now, if I can just figure out what is going on with the HTPC I'll be completely set.


UPDATE - I fixed the problem with the switcher/scaler butchering the image from my HTPC by bumping it down to 720p at the video card and letting my projector take it up to 1080 from there. Picture appears at least as good as when I was letting the PC go all the way to 1080, and, I may be fooling myself, but I think it may even be a tad better this way.


Anyway, I'm a happy camper as I now have the convenience of my HTPC for regular DVD and can also use my anamorphic lens with HD-DVD now. Been looking for this simple solution for a while and I'm glad I found it (and was patient and didn't blow $3k on a scaler I don't need).


----------



## MoG

great replies!


does anyone have any before/after pics? i'm curious as to how well this unit works as a video processor. regardless, i think i'm going to get one for my CIH setup.


----------



## ebr

If anyone is controlling this thing via RS232, please tell me how. I can't get mine to respond properly. I can make it freeze up so I know the physical communications is working. The manual lists commands but no details on the protocol. I found on the KD site that most of their stuff seems to want 4800 n,8,1 and I've tried that and 2400 and 9600 and nothing works. Also tried a straight through and a null modem cable.


----------



## ebr

Okay - through lots of trial and error, I got the RS232 working. So, I have my setup completely how I want it (for now). I even modified my ML stuff to automatically control the scaler for HD-DVD or regular DVD (changing output resolution and vertical zoom functions). For other's information here's the lowdown on RS232 with this device:


Com settings: 19200 no parity, 8 data, 1 stop (all other KD devices appear to use 4800 but this is 19200)


Now, the RS232 interface of this thing (and apparently most KD stuff) is just plain goofy. It is designed as if a person were using hyperterminal to control the unit as opposed to a program sending discrete commands. It produces menus of options and waits for responses, etc. So, the trick to getting a program to properly navigate the interface is very careful spacing of _each character_ sent to the device.


So to send a command I have to have my interface send a character, pause for about .15 seconds then send another character, etc. A royal pain in the arse but it seems to be working now.


In the end, I would definitely recommend this device to someone that was in my boat and just needed something to do the aspect ratio control for them. I am not using the actual scaling functionality at all (the two are definitely different) so I can't comment on how good or bad that is except to say that my projector does a better job with taking 1080i to 1080p (the KD unit is probably bobbing as suspected above).


----------



## Uatatoka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The response I got from digital connection follows:
> 
> 
> "...for 1080i output would be identical to 1080i input which would then be scaled vertically to fit the chosen zoom mode size (vertical stretch mode). "
> 
> 
> This implies that the scaling and stretching are different processes and that 1080i signals will not be degraded.
> 
> 
> I guess I'll find out as I ordered one and can easily compare my A1 picture with and without it.



That's actually pretty promising then if you have a 1080p projector that handles 1080i->1080p properly and this switcher just applies the vertical stretch to each interlaced field. Of course if you set it to 720p or 1080p output then you won't bypass the deinterlacing which is where this unit wouldn't compete with the fully featured scalers.


Glad to hear it worked out after all.


----------



## Uatatoka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Okay - through lots of trial and error, I got the RS232 working. So, I have my setup completely how I want it (for now). I even modified my ML stuff to automatically control the scaler for HD-DVD or regular DVD (changing output resolution and vertical zoom functions). For other's information here's the lowdown on RS232 with this device:
> 
> 
> Com settings: 19200 no parity, 8 data, 1 stop (all other KD devices appear to use 4800 but this is 19200)
> 
> 
> Now, the RS232 interface of this thing (and apparently most KD stuff) is just plain goofy. It is designed as if a person were using hyperterminal to control the unit as opposed to a program sending discrete commands. It produces menus of options and waits for responses, etc. So, the trick to getting a program to properly navigate the interface is very careful spacing of _each character_ sent to the device.
> 
> 
> So to send a command I have to have my interface send a character, pause for about .15 seconds then send another character, etc. A royal pain in the arse but it seems to be working now.
> 
> 
> In the end, I would definitely recommend this device to someone that was in my boat and just needed something to do the aspect ratio control for them. I am not using the actual scaling functionality at all (the two are definitely different) so I can't comment on how good or bad that is except to say that my projector does a better job with taking 1080i to 1080p (the KD unit is probably bobbing as suspected above).



I may end getting one of these after all for my forthcoming Sharp XV-Z12000 which doesn't have vertical stretch but has a top notch internal scaler for 1080i.


EBR, what program are you using to send the RS-232 commands for unique settings to the switcher? Is "your ML stuff" something you wrote yourself?


----------



## strange_brew

"ML stuff" = Main Lobby by CINEMAR


----------



## Uatatoka

thanks strange_brew...


----------



## raoul




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Uatatoka* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's actually pretty promising then if you have a 1080p projector that handles 1080i->1080p properly and this switcher just applies the vertical stretch to each interlaced field. Of course if you set it to 720p or 1080p output then you won't bypass the deinterlacing which is where this unit wouldn't compete with the fully featured scalers.
> 
> 
> Glad to hear it worked out after all.



Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but it isn't possible to scale w/o deinterlacing. I suspect it may be reinterlacing the image to get an interlaced signal out after doing the deinterlace and scaling.


----------



## Uatatoka

I suspect your right raoul after further thought. You have to fill in the "black bars" with interpolated data, and you simply can't fill in every other line without knowing a lines adjacent neighbors (at least accurately). This requires a full field of 1080p even to do vertical stretch. I don't think there is a way around this....


Looks like I'm back to the Lumagen solution. Not knowing the KD scaler process is too much of an unknown for me despite the positive feedback.


Mike


----------



## bmwracer3

I just received mine, although my theater isn't even close to being finished yet. Seemed like too good of a deal to pass up.


Uatatoka/Mike, I'd venture to say that it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to buy the KD scaler and try it out. If it doesn't fit your setup/liking, I would think you could resale it for a very minimal loss. Certainly a lesser loss than buying another scaler and reselling it (e.g. Lumagen, DVDO, etc).


Just a thought.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raoul* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but it isn't possible to scale w/o deinterlacing. I suspect it may be reinterlacing the image to get an interlaced signal out after doing the deinterlace and scaling.



While that seems logical, it doesn't appear to be the case in practice. At least, I can tell absolutely no difference between my HD-DVDs with and without vertical stretch applied - in terms of resolution and image quality. I've seen 540p and this is NOT 540p...


----------



## Allen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> While that seems logical, it doesn't appear to be the case in practice. At least, I can tell absolutely no difference between my HD-DVDs with and without vertical stretch applied - in terms of resolution and image quality. I've seen 540p and this is NOT 540p...



I can't speak to 1080P, but ebr's experience is what I am seeing on my HD A1 with 1080i selected.


Allen


----------



## A/Vspec

What happens if you try and feed the this thing 1080P? Do you get any output?


----------



## dinode

Any more user comments on this? How about a used Leeza?


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dinode* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any more user comments on this? How about a used Leeza?



If all you need is aspect control for 2.35 and these KD puppies are still available, I say grab one. I couldn't find a better solution for this price.


----------



## MoG

is anyone using this with a 720p projector?


----------



## Allen

I am.


Allen


----------



## benthx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If all you need is aspect control for 2.35 and these KD puppies are still available, I say grab one. I couldn't find a better solution for this price.



They are still available???


I am also looking for a low cost solution to do just the required VS nothing else.


Thanks

Ben


----------



## LenVP

From my understanding, using a scaler such as the Key Digital will then use the video processing from the scaler, then bypass the video processing that is built-in to the projector such as the RS-1, even if you only need to do vertical stretch. Am I right in my understanding?


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *benthx* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> They are still available???
> 
> 
> I am also looking for a low cost solution to do just the required VS nothing else.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Ben


 http://www.digitalconnection.com/pro.../kdhdmi4x1.asp


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LenVP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> From my understanding, using a scaler such as the Key Digital will then use the video processing from the scaler, then bypass the video processing that is built-in to the projector such as the RS-1, even if you only need to do vertical stretch. Am I right in my understanding?



No







.


Basically, you could piggyback scalers as much as you want and they could all impact the image. For instance, you could have an upscaling DVD player output 720p to a scaler that would take that to 1080i then to a projector that would de-interlace that to 1080p. Now, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't _want_ to do that, but you could. Putting a scaler in front of your display won't bypass anything. What happens to the image depends on each device.


Now, having said all that, I don't actually use the scaling capabilities of this KD device. Somehow, the aspect control (stretch modes) are actually separate from the scaler and they do not, I repeat, do NOT impact the image quality in any way that I can discern (on a 1080p display with a 1080 source). The scaling on this device is below what most good scalers are capable of (including my projector) but I use it just for this aspect control and, for that, it works great.


----------



## LenVP

Great...thanks ebr, that's what I've been trying to understand for a while now. Having the RS-1 and the 1500 lens, I'd rather not spend a fortune just to achieve the vertical stretch when I'm so impressed with the video quality with this projector.


Thanks a ton


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> http://www.digitalconnection.com/pro.../kdhdmi4x1.asp



Thx for the link, I thought that I had missed out on the special pricing deal. I just picked up one for use with a 2.35 setup for my RS1. Now I just need to wait for the upcoming Prismasonic lens powerbuy so I can get the lens.


----------



## TravisP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> http://www.digitalconnection.com/pro.../kdhdmi4x1.asp



Will this scaler work with my Mitsubishi HD1000U 720p projector ?


If so, how do you bypass the scaling in my projector to use the external scaler ?

my projector has the Aspects :Auto, Real, 4x3, 16:9, Zoom1, Zoom2, and Stretch.

I think the Auto Aspect, automaticly detects the input aspect signal, but I'm not sure.


Also, do you notice a difference in quality with this scaler hooked up, vs. with out the scaler, good quality, or worse quality ?


----------



## malichai




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Now, having said all that, I don't actually use the scaling capabilities of this KD device. Somehow, the aspect control (stretch modes) are actually separate from the scaler and they do not, I repeat, do NOT impact the image quality in any way that I can discern (on a 1080p display with a 1080 source). The scaling on this device is below what most good scalers are capable of (including my projector) but I use it just for this aspect control and, for that, it works great.



Wow, are you serious? I have an RS-1 and an ISCO-3 with a cineslide on the way and have been cursing that I was going to have to spend 2-3k on a video processor when ALL I need or want it to do is vertically stretch my HD-DVDs and Blu-Rays (since the RS-1 supposedly can stretch DVDs). My understanding previously though was that anything that stretches or changes the image is going to bugger with the processing. You, sir, are a peach.


edit - dang. it doesn't accept 24p nor output 24p, so I guess I'm back to the 2-3k video processors.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TravisP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will this scaler work with my Mitsubishi HD1000U 720p projector ?
> 
> 
> If so, how do you bypass the scaling in my projector to use the external scaler ?
> 
> my projector has the Aspects :Auto, Real, 4x3, 16:9, Zoom1, Zoom2, and Stretch.
> 
> I think the Auto Aspect, automaticly detects the input aspect signal, but I'm not sure.
> 
> 
> Also, do you notice a difference in quality with this scaler hooked up, vs. with out the scaler, good quality, or worse quality ?



I would not use this device as a scaler. It's really not that good at it.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *malichai* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow, are you serious? I have an RS-1 and an ISCO-3 with a cineslide on the way and have been cursing that I was going to have to spend 2-3k on a video processor when ALL I need or want it to do is vertically stretch my HD-DVDs and Blu-Rays (since the RS-1 supposedly can stretch DVDs). My understanding previously though was that anything that stretches or changes the image is going to bugger with the processing. You, sir, are a peach.
> 
> 
> edit - dang. it doesn't accept 24p nor output 24p, so I guess I'm back to the 2-3k video processors.



I was in exactly the same boat in that I only needed aspect control for HD-DVD and my HDTivo. My HTPC can handle it for regular DVD. I searched for almost a year for a scaler under $1k and never could find one worth purchasing. Then I stumbled on this thread and device and gave it a shot. I was actually surprised to find that it was able to do the stretch on a 1080i signal without de-interlacing it - but it appears that's exactly what it does.


I don't have a 24p capable projector so that's not an issue for me.


----------



## TravisP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would not use this device as a scaler. It's really not that good at it.



What Scaler would you suggest to use with my Mitsubishi HD1000U projector ?


Thanks


Travis


----------



## ebr

I am not familiar with your projector, but first, I would be sure you really need an outboard scaler. I don't use one because my HTPC scales DVD very well and all my other sources (HD-DVD and HD-Tivo) are HD. What will your sources be?


----------



## McCall

Many projectors do the vertical scaling and so do many DVD players. So you may or may not need the scaler.


----------



## TravisP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am not familiar with your projector, but first, I would be sure you really need an outboard scaler. I don't use one because my HTPC scales DVD very well and all my other sources (HD-DVD and HD-Tivo) are HD. What will your sources be?



I was thinking about buying one of the Toshiba HD DVD Players.

Toshiba HD-A2

Toshiba HD-A20

Toshiba HD-XA2 "Most likely this one"


But if I could find a HD DVD Player that does the proper vertical stretch I would buy one of those instead, so I won't have to buy a external scaler.


I would like to stay with HDMI and Componant connections though, if possible.


I'm not sure what High Defenition DVD Player have the scaling vertical stretch to do the 2.35:1 that I want.


Maybe you can give me some direction.


Thanks


Travis


----------



## Allen

No Highdef player does.


Allen


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TravisP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was thinking about buying one of the Toshiba HD DVD Players.
> 
> Toshiba HD-A2
> 
> Toshiba HD-A20
> 
> Toshiba HD-XA2 "Most likely this one"
> 
> 
> But if I could find a HD DVD Player that does the proper vertical stretch I would buy one of those instead, so I won't have to buy a external scaler.
> 
> 
> I would like to stay with HDMI and Componant connections though, if possible.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what High Defenition DVD Player have the scaling vertical stretch to do the 2.35:1 that I want.
> 
> 
> Maybe you can give me some direction.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Travis



Well, for HD-DVD (and Tosh is the only one still I think) you don't need a scaler exactly as your source is already 1080p but you may need aspect ratio control for an anamorphic lens. Realize - if you don't have an anamorphic lens and 2.35:1 screen setup, you don't even need that.


But, if that is the case, then the KD unit we were talking about here will do the job for you. Sorry if this is all confusing but, the scaling function and aspect ratio control are two different things.


----------



## TravisP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, for HD-DVD (and Tosh is the only one still I think) you don't need a scaler exactly as your source is already 1080p but you may need aspect ratio control for an anamorphic lens. Realize - if you don't have an anamorphic lens and 2.35:1 screen setup, you don't even need that.
> 
> 
> But, if that is the case, then the KD unit we were talking about here will do the job for you. Sorry if this is all confusing but, the scaling function and aspect ratio control are two different things.



I don't have a anamorphic lens or a 2.35:1 screen as of yet, but I plan on buying them in the near future.


I just want to make sure with the proper equipment that my Mitsubishi HD1000U 720p native 16:9 projector would work in such a setup.


So if I'm understanding you right, "Correct me if I'm wrong" with the Toshiba XA2 HD DVD player and the Key Digital unit and a anamorphic lens and screen I should be able to accompish a 2.35:1 image ?


I'm trying to do a 2.35:1 setup as affordable as possible to see if I will like it or not, since I have never seen one of these setups in action in person.


Thanks


Travis


----------



## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, for HD-DVD (and Tosh is the only one still I think) you don't need a scaler exactly as your source is already 1080p but you may need aspect ratio control for an anamorphic lens. Realize - if you don't have an anamorphic lens and 2.35:1 screen setup, you don't even need that.
> 
> 
> But, if that is the case, then the KD unit we were talking about here will do the job for you. Sorry if this is all confusing but, the scaling function and aspect ratio control are two different things.



ebr, I know you've explained this before, so please forgive me for being obtuse - when you say the scaling function and AR control are 2 different things, do you mean that by outputting 1080P/60 from the source, into the KD, stretching it, and sending to the PJ, that there is no additional scaling added by the KD machine? In other words, a straight pass-thru? I'm pretty sure that's what you're saying but wanted to be 100%


Thanks,

Craig.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TravisP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So if I'm understanding you right, "Correct me if I'm wrong" with the Toshiba XA2 HD DVD player and the Key Digital unit and a anamorphic lens and screen I should be able to accompish a 2.35:1 image ?



Yes - with the caveat that you may not even need the KD unit. The determining factor is whether or not your projector can use its stretch modes on a "hi-rez" input signal (720p and up). Mine (Sony Ruby) cannot, but some can and I'm not familiar with yours.


Once you have a real 2.35:1 setup you will not ever, repeat, ever want to go back to letterboxing 2.35 material on a 1.85/1.78 screen







.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ebr, I know you've explained this before, so please forgive me for being obtuse - when you say the scaling function and AR control are 2 different things, do you mean that by outputting 1080P/60 from the source, into the KD, stretching it, and sending to the PJ, that there is no additional scaling added by the KD machine? In other words, a straight pass-thru? I'm pretty sure that's what you're saying but wanted to be 100%
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Craig.



Correct, except that the KD unit will not accept a 1080p input - only 1080i. But that is a non-issue with any decent projector that can properly de-interlace it.


I didn't believe it either until I saw it.


----------



## TravisP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes - with the caveat that you may not even need the KD unit. The determining factor is whether or not your projector can use its stretch modes on a "hi-rez" input signal (720p and up). Mine (Sony Ruby) cannot, but some can and I'm not familiar with yours.
> 
> 
> Once you have a real 2.35:1 setup you will not ever, repeat, ever want to go back to letterboxing 2.35 material on a 1.85/1.78 screen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



ebr


Here is the different aspects/settings my projector does.

Maybe this will help you, with what my projector does.


Thanks

Travis


----------



## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Correct, except that the KD unit will not accept a 1080p input - only 1080i. But that is a non-issue with any decent projector that can properly de-interlace it.
> 
> 
> I didn't believe it either until I saw it.



very interesting. Thanks ebr.


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> very interesting. Thanks ebr.



I am very surprised that key digital discontinued this unit. It is the only one that I know of in this price range that can do what it does for anamorphic setups. It is the ideal unit for someone who only needs a stretch function, which is exactly my case. Mine should be here in a couple of days so I look forward to picking up a lens along with it.


----------



## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acegamer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am very surprised that key digital discontinued this unit. It is the only one that I know of in this price range that can do what it does for anamorphic setups. It is the ideal unit for someone who only needs a stretch function, which is exactly my case. Mine should be here in a couple of days so I look forward to picking up a lens along with it.



Agreed. The only thing giving me pause is that it can only accept 1080i inputs. Not a big deal now since I'm using my Xbox 360 HD drive, and my RS1 has a good scaler, but still. It would be nice to be able to output 1080P/24 pixel perfect to the RS1 from an HD player. I'm just trying to figure out how much "would be nice" is worth to me in terms of $$, or whether I would notice a difference


----------



## A/Vspec




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Agreed. The only thing giving me pause is that it can only accept 1080i inputs. Not a big deal now since I'm using my Xbox 360 HD drive, and my RS1 has a good scaler, but still. It would be nice to be able to output 1080P/24 pixel perfect to the RS1 from an HD player. I'm just trying to figure out how much "would be nice" is worth to me in terms of $$, or whether I would notice a difference




I sent an email to Keydigital and they tell me they are working on one that will do the stretch on 1080P/24.


I will follow up with them and see if I can get a price/release date.


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Agreed. The only thing giving me pause is that it can only accept 1080i inputs. Not a big deal now since I'm using my Xbox 360 HD drive, and my RS1 has a good scaler, but still. It would be nice to be able to output 1080P/24 pixel perfect to the RS1 from an HD player. I'm just trying to figure out how much "would be nice" is worth to me in terms of $$, or whether I would notice a difference



From what EBR is reporting, he couldn't tell a difference between the HD image with and without the Key Digital unit. I'd be very surprised if any difference will be noticeable.


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A/Vspec* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I sent an email to Keydigital and they tell me they are working on one that will do the stretch on 1080P/24.
> 
> 
> I will follow up with them and see if I can get a price/release date.



That's interesting news too. If that comes out at a reasonable price and provides improved persformacne for 1080p sources then I might sell my current unit and upgrade. However, I suspect that there won't be a noticeable difference. It will be more for a marketing advantage than anything. Without reading the first hand reports on the forum I probably wouldn't have considered the unit for use with my RS-1 either.


----------



## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acegamer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's interesting news too. If that comes out at a reasonable price and provides improved persformacne for 1080p sources then I might sell my current unit and upgrade. However, I suspect that there won't be a noticeable difference. It will be more for a marketing advantage than anything. Without reading the first hand reports on the forum I probably wouldn't have considered the unit for use with my RS-1 either.



Agreed, that would be very interesting!


Ace, are you running the KD unit with your RS1 right now? If so, I assume you are going straight in/out at 1080i and upconverting with your RS1? If so, what sources are you using. In other words, are you upconverting your SD material to 1080i using your player, or passing 480 through and upconverting with the RS1? What HD sources are you using, and how do you have them configured?


ebr, how do you have yours set up?


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TravisP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ebr
> 
> 
> Here is the different aspects/settings my projector does.
> 
> Maybe this will help you, with what my projector does.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Travis



The bottom row of that table is telling you that the projector will NOT apply aspect ratio adjustment to HD inputs (720p/1080i). So, yes, you would need something like the KD unit for a 2.35:1 setup with lens.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Agreed, that would be very interesting!
> 
> 
> Ace, are you running the KD unit with your RS1 right now? If so, I assume you are going straight in/out at 1080i and upconverting with your RS1? If so, what sources are you using. In other words, are you upconverting your SD material to 1080i using your player, or passing 480 through and upconverting with the RS1? What HD sources are you using, and how do you have them configured?
> 
> 
> ebr, how do you have yours set up?



First, just for clarification, going from 1080i to 1080p is not upconverting - its just de-interlacing. A 1080i input is still "pixel perfect" on a 1080 display with a proper de-interlacer (just about all of them now, I think). So, the only thing you gain from the 1080p/24 input capability is the possibility of completely eliminating judder - which may or may not be a problem for you anyway.


I have my KD switcher setup so that it always outputs the same res as my input signal (thus, it never uses the scaler in it). I have only two input resolutions - 720p which is what I output from my HTPC and 1080i which is what I output from both my HD-A1 and HDTivo. In the case of the HTPC, I let my projector (Sony Ruby) take the 720p signal up to 1080p.


One caveat - There is no "thru" setting on the KD unit so you have to adjust the output resolution to match the input resolution if it changes. I've done this via RS232 commands that get sent from my ML interface as I switch inputs.


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Agreed, that would be very interesting!
> 
> 
> Ace, are you running the KD unit with your RS1 right now? If so, I assume you are going straight in/out at 1080i and upconverting with your RS1? If so, what sources are you using. In other words, are you upconverting your SD material to 1080i using your player, or passing 480 through and upconverting with the RS1? What HD sources are you using, and how do you have them configured?
> 
> 
> ebr, how do you have yours set up?



I don't have my KD unit yet. It should be arriving some time this week. I intend to feed it a 1080i signal in and let it output a 1080i signal that will be deinterlaced into 1080p by the RS1. I have a HD-A1 hd-dvd player, a PS3 and Dishnetwork High Definition DVR that will be used as sources. I will set them all to output 1080i, which all of them except the PS3 are set to right now anyway. I will be sure to report my findings once I get everything setup.


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First, just for clarification, going from 1080i to 1080p is not upconverting - its just de-interlacing. A 1080i input is still "pixel perfect" on a 1080 display with a proper de-interlacer (just about all of them now, I think). So, the only thing you gain from the 1080p/24 input capability is the possibility of completely eliminating judder - which may or may not be a problem for you anyway....



I don't even know what judder is, and since I already have 1080i sources going into my RS1 as it is, I am certainly not worried about it being a problem. I'm just thrilled that I don't have to buy a $2000+ scaler to achieve CIH!


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acegamer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't even know what judder is...



I'm gonna be really nice and not tell you. That way, it won't bother you at all







.


----------



## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First, just for clarification, going from 1080i to 1080p is not upconverting - its just de-interlacing. A 1080i input is still "pixel perfect" on a 1080 display with a proper de-interlacer (just about all of them now, I think). So, the only thing you gain from the 1080p/24 input capability is the possibility of completely eliminating judder - which may or may not be a problem for you anyway.



Right, my bad. I do understand the distinction, just a poor choice of words on my part. I'm not really going to worry about judder at the moment since I don't have any 1080p/24 sources anyway...



> Quote:
> One caveat - There is no "thru" setting on the KD unit so you have to adjust the output resolution to match the input resolution if it changes. I've done this via RS232 commands that get sent from my ML interface as I switch inputs.



Is there a direct way to accomlish this on the remote (I'm using IR until I get ML setup)? that said, I can probably stick with 1080i inputs anyway. Only thing I'm not sure of is the cablebox. I'll have to check and see if it just sends whatever the channel rez is, or if it sends out 1080i regardless. It may end up forcing my hand on getting ML up and running...


Love you HT btw. We have pretty similar layouts actually (BPape did my acoustic design as well). I'm just in the finishing stages now, then I'll get the BFD and start "tweaking". Question for you - how much space do you have between your 2nd row and the columns at the "pinch" point. I'm trying to figure out if I can jam 4 seats in there (2 loveseats like you have). My room is a touch narrower than yours though, and looks like my columns are deeper.


Craig.


----------



## ebr

There is no direct acess to resolutions but the remote has a "Resolution" button on it where you can cycle through them.


I have 24" from the arm of my chair to the column. When I was laying out the room I really thought this was going to be too tight but, in practice, it is not. Its not a hallway where people walk all the time. Its just an aisle to get to a seat so it works just fine.


----------



## A/Vspec

1080/24P is a BIG plus for those who have projectors that can except 24 like the Sony Pearl as it will take the 24 and display 96Hz.


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A/Vspec* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1080/24P is a BIG plus for those who have projectors that can except 24 like the Sony Pearl as it will take the 24 and display 96Hz.



I really can't imagine my HD-DVD and Blu-Ray media looking any better than it already does on my RS-1. I don't see how I would even notice anything different if it were any better. Would the image appear even sharper with a 1080/24p signal?


----------



## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acegamer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I really can't imagine my HD-DVD and Blu-Ray media looking any better than it already does on my RS-1. I don't see how I would even notice anything different if it were any better. Would the image appear even sharper with a 1080/24p signal?



Not sharper. The only thing you eliminate is the 3:2 cadence judder induced when processing the conversion from film sources (24 fps) to NTSC video standards (60Hz - or 60 fps). You would still have 24 fps motion judder though (can't get around that as its in the source). Anyway, that is what I concluded from my readings. You might want to check this thread out - I learned a lot from it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=737604 


Craig.


----------



## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is no direct acess to resolutions but the remote has a "Resolution" button on it where you can cycle through them.
> 
> 
> I have 24" from the arm of my chair to the column. When I was laying out the room I really thought this was going to be too tight but, in practice, it is not. Its not a hallway where people walk all the time. Its just an aisle to get to a seat so it works just fine.



ebr, question for you in your HT thread.


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not sharper. The only thing you eliminate is the 3:2 cadence judder induced when processing the conversion from film sources (24 fps) to NTSC video standards (60Hz - or 60 fps). You would still have 24 fps motion judder though (can't get around that as its in the source). Anyway, that is what I concluded from my readings. You might want to check this thread out - I learned a lot from it:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=737604
> 
> 
> Craig.



Mmm, I don't think I even want to read any threads about it, because if I learn what it is then it might start to bother me!


----------



## strange_brew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acegamer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mmm, I don't think I even want to read any threads about it, because if I learn what it is then it might start to bother me!



Good decision


----------



## A/Vspec




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not sharper. The only thing you eliminate is the 3:2 cadence judder induced when processing the conversion from film sources (24 fps) to NTSC video standards (60Hz - or 60 fps). You would still have 24 fps motion judder though (can't get around that as its in the source). Anyway, that is what I concluded from my readings. You might want to check this thread out - I learned a lot from it:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=737604
> 
> 
> Craig.



You are close Craig.


Film and even HD is shot at 24fps and it is encoded on HD/BR at 1080/24p so if you can get that straight to a display device and the display device supports it then yes you completly eliminate the 3:2 judder as it is NOT "in the source".


Now I have not seen this is action yet as I do not have a source that will give me 1080/24p and does the vertical stretch for my 2.35:1 setup but as soon as I do I will be sure to post my finding on how good the lack of motion judder improves the viewing experience.


----------



## strange_brew

Thanks Mark, that is one thing I wasn't sure about - so all HD-DVD and BR discs are stored at 1080P/24? That confused me because I believe other than a couple of BR exceptions, there are no 1080P/24 outputs from those players yet. If that's the case then the player has to be doing the 3:2 pulldown and converting to 60 hz, correct?


I was originally thinking of using the Lumagen HDQ for exactly this reason, but like you, I haven't seen it in practice yet so don't know if its worth the cost / effort.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A/Vspec* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now I have not seen this is action yet



Given that, wouldn't you say that this statement:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A/Vspec* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1080/24P is a BIG plus for those who have projectors that can except 24 like the Sony Pearl as it will take the 24 and display 96Hz.



Might be a little pre-mature...?










Not really trying to bust your b----s here, and I understand that, theoretically, this should be better, but my setup already looks so much better than anything I see in the "real" cinema that I sometimes wonder just how much of a difference things like this will really make - when watching a normal movie.


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Given that, wouldn't you say that this statement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might be a little pre-mature...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really trying to bust your b----s here, and I understand that, theoretically, this should be better, but my setup already looks so much better than anything I see in the "real" cinema that I sometimes wonder just how much of a difference things like this will really make - when watching a normal movie.



YEp, I have the same view on alot of the "technical" improvements that can be made. At some point the benefits become so small as to be unnoticeable to me. My high def DVD images already look perfect as is to me just using a 1080i source. I have used my PS3 to output 1080p for blu-ray movies and my HD-A1 to output 1080i for HD-DVD movies and they both look equally terrific. I just don't think there is that much "real world" improvement to be gained beyond what I'm already getting, which is why I came to the conclusion that the Key Digital unit would be plenty good enough for me, especially when saving me over a $1000.


----------



## usualsuspects

I have the Lumagen HDQ and the Pearl. I take a 1080i60 3:2 feed from the Toshiba XA2 into the HDQ - do a vertical stretch for (scope films) CIH and output at 1080p24. Is 24p noticeably better than the same material at 1080i60 or p60? Yes. It is smother. Would I pay $1000 to get 24p output only with no other improvements - no way - for me the price/performance does not work at $1000. Now that is not to say that the HDQ is not worth it for other reasons - the calibration and tweaking and other image manipulations are very handy.


----------



## strange_brew

usual, does that mean your XA2 is doing the 3:2 pulldown first, then the lumagen is going back to 24P? I'm just trying to understand the impact of that - player is doing 2:2:3:2:2:3... and then the Lumagen is sending 2:2:2:2:2:2. Do I have that right? Is the Lumagen just eliminating the 3 part of it? Not sure if this question makes sense or not...


----------



## usualsuspects

Yeah thats pretty much it. The XA2 is doing 3:2 pulldown on the 24p frames , or the telecined 60i fields are coming out of the decoder and being passed on as-is (unknown what is really going on in the internals of the XA2). In any case the 1080i60 feed is 2:2:3:2:2:3...... The Lumagen is then turning it into either: 1:1:1:1:1:1... in the case of 24p output or 2:2:2:2:2:2... in the case of 48P output. 24psf is also an allowed output on the Lumagen scalers, but I don't use it. I have compared 24p and 48p and find them to be nearly identical - they theoretically should be identical, but there may be some projector and/or scaler deficiencies/interactions that cause them to look slightly different. It might be my imagination, but 24p looks slightly better than 48p to me most times.


----------



## A/Vspec

All the above replies are correct.


Yes, if you have a GREAT processor that can do an excellent job at the 3:2 pulldown then you are correct, you might not notice much of a difference.


"I believe other than a couple of BR exceptions, there are no 1080P/24 outputs from those players yet."


The LG combo player outputs 1080/24p on both formats... infact that seems to be making a lot of people unhappy with the player as they hook it up to there 1080P display and set the LG to output 1080p and wonder why they get no picture... and of course it is because their display can only handle 1080/60p.... which of course if they set the output of the LG to 1080i they will actually get a 1080/60p display because all digital displays de-interlace the incoming signal to display the image in 1080/60p.... lose anyone yet?










So those with nice (and for most of you, expensive) video processors, rest easy... I am sure that when a 1080/24p Hi-Def player comes out with the vertical stretch built into it, the diffence in image quality with not be leaps and bounds (if any) above the hi-end scaler.


That said, if I can get a pure feed with the least amount of video conversions to get the sharpest, cleanest picture on my 130" 2.35:1 curved screen, then g0d da#n it, that is just what I am going to do.


----------



## ebr

You don't need a hi-end scaler for 1080/60p - just a HD-DVD or BD player and 1080 display. So, the question really is, how much better will the 1080/24p combination really be? I have very few even SD discs where judder is noticeable enough to bother me. I don't recall it being an issue on any of my HD discs (probably just because I'm marvelling at the resolution and not paying attention to pans).


However, I've never seen a 1080/24p setup so maybe I just don't know what I'm missing. Considering it would cost thousands to get there - I think I like that I don't know







.


----------



## Lindahl

The only judder I've seen that truely bothers me is due to the speed of the pan and the frame rate of the camera the movie was filmed in. 24p native projection doesn't fix that...


----------



## A/Vspec




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You don't need a hi-end scaler for 1080/60p - just a HD-DVD or BD player and 1080 display. So, the question really is, how much better will the 1080/24p combination really be? I have very few even SD discs where judder is noticeable enough to bother me. I don't recall it being an issue on any of my HD discs (probably just because I'm marvelling at the resolution and not paying attention to pans).
> 
> 
> However, I've never seen a 1080/24p setup so maybe I just don't know what I'm missing. Considering it would cost thousands to get there - I think I like that I don't know
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



If you want the vertical stretch for 2.35:1 setup's (which this thread is about) they you better believe you need a scaler.


----------



## A/Vspec




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lindahl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The only judder I've seen that truely bothers me is due to the speed of the pan and the frame rate of the camera the movie was filmed in. 24p native projection doesn't fix that...



That is exactly what 1080/24p fixes! Film and HD is in 24fps and when you have a pan from side to side you get motion judder because of the 3:2 pulldown conversion. If you have 24fps all the way thru they you will not see that anymore.


----------



## Lindahl




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A/Vspec* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That is exactly what 1080/24p fixes! Film and HD is in 24fps and when you have a pan from side to side you get motion judder because of the 3:2 pulldown conversion. If you have 24fps all the way thru they you will not see that anymore.



You misunderstood. 24p doesn't fix judder that's inherent in the source due to the director panning too quickly for the film he's shooting on. When the camera is shooting 24 frames per second, if you don't pan slow enough, you'll get motion judder. It has nothing to do with framerate conversions. There is judder due to framerate conversions, but the only judder I've found obviously objectionable is the judder found in the source due to the framerate the movie was shot in, and a poor director or camera man trying to pan too quickly.


Hopefully I've explained it better, so you can understand.


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A/Vspec* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you want the vertical stretch for 2.35:1 setup's (which this thread is about) they you better believe you need a scaler.



What EBR was referring to is the fact that you don't need a "high-end" scaler. He picked up a Key Digital HMDI switcher/scaler for $600 that does the stretch needed for 2.35, which is the same thing that I"m going to do.


----------



## A/Vspec




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acegamer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What EBR was referring to is the fact that you don't need a "high-end" scaler. He picked up a Key Digital HMDI switcher/scaler for $600 that does the stretch needed for 2.35, which is the same thing that I"m going to do.



True, and even I am still thinking about picking up one of these. The only thing holding me back is the 24fps thing.


If KeyDigital were to make a simple device that excepted 1080/24p input and applied the vertical stretch only to the signal then I would be all over it.


----------



## johnson_sb

I have the Panasonic AX100U PJ. I am currently doing the "poor man's" CIH onto a 2.35 screen. According to my manual, it will handle a vertical stretch for 720p and 1080i/p from a 2.35 source, but will not do an H-squeeze for 1.85 or 1.78 sources (i.e. I would have to move the lens).


Key Digital mentions in the manual for this thing a "Pillarbox" mode. Does that perform the correct H-squeeze for 1.85 and/or 1.78 sources?


----------



## Allen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnson_sb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Key Digital mentions in the manual for this thing a "Pillarbox" mode. Does that perform the correct H-squeeze for 1.85 and/or 1.78 sources?



Yes, it does. With a scaler you never have to move the lens.


Allen


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A/Vspec* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> True, and even I am still thinking about picking up one of these. The only thing holding me back is the 24fps thing.
> 
> 
> If KeyDigital were to make a simple device that excepted 1080/24p input and applied the vertical stretch only to the signal then I would be all over it.



I read somewhere on the forums that that is exactly what Key Digital is doing for the next iteration of the discontinued model. I don't know how close it is to release or if what I read was really true but I decided to go ahead and get the current discontinued model anyway. You may want to do a little web snooping to see if you can find anymore info on this rumored new model. It is really a shame that more manufactures haven't mad a cost effective box for doing simple image stretching.


----------



## Samurai Jack

So if you could but this at around $600 or a scrounge around for a deal on a used DVDO or Lumagen for maybe $200 or $300 more...what would be the best idea?


Something like a Lumagen or DVDO would obviously perform better processing...worth the extra money once you're spending that much to begin with? Or no?


How futureproof is one of these scalers? I mean, if you blow a big wad on a lens now...at least you know the optics aren't going out of style.


Will the current scalers become obsolete and maybe alot cheaper because newer 1080/24p type units are around the bend?


I've got an anamorphic lens I'd love to use with my projector, but I'm frustrated with my Sharp XV-Z12000 MkII. It'll do the vertical stretch and even pillarboxing _beautifully_ on SD inputs...but not with HD! Why not HD?! So frustrating!


So I'm really looking to solve the problem...I think the picture is otherwise so nice from this 720 DLP that I'm not much interested in going to an HD72 or HC3000 or AX100 instead. But in solving the problem I don't want to go nuts and spend enough that I've essentially spent myself out of this class of projector. At the same time, I want to wring out of the high-end (on-a-shoestring) Sharp the kind of picture I know it's capable of.


So, the Key Digital is cheapest. But in terms of _value_...once you've spent $600...maybe it'd be prudent to pony up the extra couple hundred for something that's going to serve better by producing a better picture (pixel-for-pixel output to a 720 projector) and remaining useful longer? Granted the Key Digital also at least has HDMI connections vs. some like the Lumagen you're dealing with DVI.


Anyway, what does anyone think...again in terms of value?


- Pick up the discontinued Key Digital unit at rock-bottom (a $600 box providing only aspect ratio switch)


or


- Shell out a bit more (maybe finding a deal) for real processing and get overall more for your (larger sum of) money?



Or is everyone using a 1080 projector/display and just doesn't care about anything other than the AR anyway?


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Samurai Jack* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So if you could but this at around $600 or a scrounge around for a deal on a used DVDO or Lumagen for maybe $200 or $300 more...what would be the best idea?
> 
> 
> Something like a Lumagen or DVDO would obviously perform better processing...worth the extra money once you're spending that much to begin with? Or no?
> 
> 
> How futureproof is one of these scalers? I mean, if you blow a big wad on a lens now...at least you know the optics aren't going out of style.
> 
> 
> Will the current scalers become obsolete and maybe alot cheaper because newer 1080/24p type units are around the bend?
> 
> 
> I've got an anamorphic lens I'd love to use with my projector, but I'm frustrated with my Sharp XV-Z12000 MkII. It'll do the vertical stretch and even pillarboxing _beautifully_ on SD inputs...but not with HD! Why not HD?! So frustrating!
> 
> 
> So I'm really looking to solve the problem...I think the picture is otherwise so nice from this 720 DLP that I'm not much interested in going to an HD72 or HC3000 or AX100 instead. But in solving the problem I don't want to go nuts and spend enough that I've essentially spent myself out of this class of projector. At the same time, I want to wring out of the high-end (on-a-shoestring) Sharp the kind of picture I know it's capable of.
> 
> 
> So, the Key Digital is cheapest. But in terms of _value_...once you've spent $600...maybe it'd be prudent to pony up the extra couple hundred for something that's going to serve better by producing a better picture (pixel-for-pixel output to a 720 projector) and remaining useful longer? Granted the Key Digital also at least has HDMI connections vs. some like the Lumagen you're dealing with DVI.
> 
> 
> Anyway, what does anyone think...again in terms of value?
> 
> 
> - Pick up the discontinued Key Digital unit at rock-bottom (a $600 box providing only aspect ratio switch)
> 
> 
> or
> 
> 
> - Shell out a bit more (maybe finding a deal) for real processing and get overall more for your (larger sum of) money?
> 
> 
> 
> Or is everyone using a 1080 projector/display and just doesn't care about anything other than the AR anyway?



Since your main goal is apparently to get aspect ratio control for your HD sources then the Key Digital Unit would still work great for you. It can't take a true 1080p signal but your projector is only 720p anyway. And even if you have a 1080p projector, like I do, then a 1080i signal will still look as good. I have a PS3 feeding my projector a 1080p signal and I have an HD-DVD player feeding it a 1080i signal. I can see absolutely no difference in quality between my blu-ray and hd-dvd media. I really believe that in terms of real-world perceived quality, 1080p and 1080i are practically interchangeable. Now if you do want to get something that will do actual processing of your image then you would likely be better off spending a little more and getting a more full featured scaler.


I just got my Key Digital unit Monday and so once my Prismasonic Lens gets here, I'll be able to give some actual firsthand impressions on what I think.


----------



## Samurai Jack

Cool, I'll be looking forard to hearing your report.


I'm still curious as to how the Key Digital achives the AR change and if there's something significantly inferior about how it does that scaling (it is scaling/zooming the image, after all) when compared to an outboard processor like the Lumagen.


I really do just want the AR change...while it'd be nice, I'm not nearly as interested in which device is doing the 3:2 pulldown or selecting the colorspace...but I want the AR change done well. However you slice it, you're blowing up the image..."making up" data that isn't really there...and that can be done well or poorly, depending upon the sophistication of algorithms used.


If the Key Digital handles the AR change as well as a higher-end scaler, then yeah, I think I'd rather save the difference and lose out on the more advanced features.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Samurai Jack* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Cool, I'll be looking forard to hearing your report.
> 
> 
> I'm still curious as to how the Key Digital achives the AR change and if there's something significantly inferior about how it does that scaling (it is scaling/zooming the image, after all) when compared to an outboard processor like the Lumagen.
> 
> 
> I really do just want the AR change...while it'd be nice, I'm not nearly as interested in which device is doing the 3:2 pulldown or selecting the colorspace...but I want the AR change done well. However you slice it, you're blowing up the image..."making up" data that isn't really there...and that can be done well or poorly, depending upon the sophistication of algorithms used.
> 
> 
> If the Key Digital handles the AR change as well as a higher-end scaler, then yeah, I think I'd rather save the difference and lose out on the more advanced features.



By your own admission you don't need any features other than AR control of HD sources. Therefore, it would be a waste to spend any more than you have to with the KD unit. Plus, the true HDMI nature of this unit is worth something. Look at all the headaches people had with the Lumagen and other devices trying to use HDMI/DVI/HDCP together. So, you could spend more money and end up with more problems.


I have not compared the KD output to any other scaler, but I have compared the KD output to the native output of my HD-A1 and I can see no difference (when used in pass-thru mode with or without stretch). I didn't believe it before I saw it, but there it is.


----------



## strange_brew

Has anyone played around with the Gefen Home Theater Scaler ?


In a forum post they say they've added aspect ratio control


What I like is the component inputs (Xbox 360), although only 2 HDMI is a little light.


Its also cheaper at $449 list.


EDIT: Sorry, my bad. Although they say they have aspect ratio control, it won't do the vertical stretch on 2.35 sources. http://forum.gefen.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2369


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strange_brew* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Has anyone played around with the Gefen Home Theater Scaler ?
> 
> 
> In a forum post they say they've added aspect ratio control
> 
> 
> What I like is the component inputs (Xbox 360), although only 2 HDMI is a little light.
> 
> 
> Its also cheaper at $449 list.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Sorry, my bad. Although they say they have aspect ratio control, it won't do the vertical stretch on 2.35 sources. http://forum.gefen.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2369



Never heard of it. Looking at the specs on that webpage, it doesn't specify what input signals it accepts and that worries me. Based on how its marketed, it wouldn't surprise me if it only accepts inputs up to 480p...


But, then again, I was surprised that the KD unit worked for my purposes without screwing up the picture - so you never know.


----------



## Samurai Jack

There's certainly something to be said for not trying to deal with HDMI/DVI/HDCP all together. However, my projector only has a DVI input, so I'd be dealing with it at one point at least.


I'd be going HD-DVD SCALER PROJECTOR.


That said, I'm pretty tempted to just go with this Key Digital unit and not try to worry about my (distant?) future needs yet. If it were just a bit cheaper, I'd have pulled the trigger already. But it's still about 25% of my projector's price. That's an expensive add-on (especially for someone who's last projector did the necessary AR switch with it's internal chipset).



So this is a good question...


Is anyone here using this KD scaler to feed a display via DVI? Does everything work?


I've heard bad things also about trying to use the Toshiba HD-A2 I just picked up with an HDMI switcher. Hmmm.


----------



## Allen

I am using the HD A1 with the KD HDMI switcher, and it works fine.


Allen


----------



## Samurai Jack

Argh, somebody just tell me to "buy it already, d*** you!"


Lol. I'm so cheap.


Allen, what 720 projector did you say you were using this with? Tell me it's the greatest thing since sliced bread so I can go order it already.


----------



## Allen

I have a Panny 900, and a 49" X 116" screen. The projector is right now 19' from the screen, but that will change to about 17.5' when I finish building the stage and screenwall. The only thing I can't do from my seat is change discs, and I can switch from my HD DVD to an HR20 DVR and change aspect ratios all with the remote.


I would slice my own bread to do that, but I don't have to.










Allen


----------



## Samurai Jack

locopablo, can you report back what happened to with the unit you returned for replacement? Did the replacement solve your problems? That is, was the first unit they sent you in fact defective?


Inquiring mind want to know.










Thanks!


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Samurai Jack* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Argh, somebody just tell me to "buy it already, d*** you!"
> 
> 
> Lol. I'm so cheap.
> 
> 
> Allen, what 720 projector did you say you were using this with? Tell me it's the greatest thing since sliced bread so I can go order it already.



"buy it already, d*** you!"


----------



## locopablo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Samurai Jack* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> locopablo, can you report back what happened to with the unit you returned for replacement? Did the replacement solve your problems? That is, was the first unit they sent you in fact defective?
> 
> 
> Inquiring mind want to know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Yes I did. I have it replaced 2 times , all the units I tried showed the same problem, they said it was a problem with my set up for some reason the unit was not working as it should with my mitsu hd1000u projector @720p, it worked fine @1080i, they even hooked it up to their toshiba lcd projector while I was there and I did not see any problem @720p so it was my projector causing the problem.


----------



## atmer

Hi locopablo,


So are you still using the unit only set to 1080i?

The reason I ask is I also have a Mitsu 1000 and purchased this unit also, I've not been able to hook it up as yet but your experience has me concerned that it will not work w/ my projector.


Thanks,

John


----------



## locopablo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *atmer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi locopablo,
> 
> 
> So are you still using the unit only set to 1080i?
> 
> The reason I ask is I also have a Mitsu 1000 and purchased this unit also, I've not been able to hook it up as yet but your experience has me concerned that it will not work w/ my projector.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John



Yes, I still have the unit, I output 1080i from my toshiba hd-xa2 into the scaler and set the scaler output to 720p it works great that way.

The problem only appears when the source device(dvd player) is set to 720p into the scaler.


----------



## acegamer

Well it looks like it's going to be a few weeks before I can get my Prismasonic lens (backorder) so I went ahead and hooked up the key digital unit tonight. Both my blu-ray and hd-dvd sources look just as sharp as before when running them through the KD unit. I selected the vertical zoom setting on the unit and it did the needed vertical stretch for the anamorphic lens. I couldn't see any degrade in the picture quality in this mode, although I obviously won't be able to properly evaluate it until I can get the lens. I have the unit set to output a 1080i image and all of my sources are set to output 1080i. At first look the unit seems to be the ideal, cost effective solution for CIH setups needing a vertical stretch means.


On a side note, I got some eyeglasses today and was floored at how much sharper and detailed my picture looked when putting them on. I had read a thread on the forums a while back that mentioned how much improvement you could possibly get if you happened to need glasses and not know it. I went and got my eyes checked and the eye doctor told me that I had a slight amount of near-sightedness that probably wasn't even worth bothering to correct. Since my whole intention was to see if it would improve my theater watching, I told him to go ahead and prescribe some anyway. Well I finally got them today and the difference is incredible. I hadn't realized how much sharpness was missing from my vision. I feel like my entire system just got a huge multi-thousand dollar upgrade!







Go get those eyes checked!


----------



## Jack Gilvey

Sorry if I missed it, but is there any confirmation one was or another that the Key bobs 1080i to 540p before stretching to 720p? I still need a scaler, but won't bother if it's not adding source resolution.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jack Gilvey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry if I missed it, but is there any confirmation one was or another that the Key bobs 1080i to 540p before stretching to 720p? I still need a scaler, but won't bother if it's not adding source resolution.



No scaler (or any other device I know of) can add source resolution







.


But, whether or not this will do what you want depends on what you really need. You said "stretching" which makes me think you're interested in the AR control. If so, this will work fine if you output the same resolution as you input.


As for the actual scaler functions, they are probably not up to par but, honestly, I haven't really looked at them that much. Do you actually need a device to take 1080i to 720p? I think almost any decent projector or TV will do a pretty good job of that. Or, did you mean that you wanted to do aspect control of a 1080i source and have a 720p display? If that is the case, this will work, but you should have it output 1080i and let your display de-interlace and downrez if necessary.


Or, did I completely miss your intention?


----------



## MoG

Hi,


I have a 720p projector and am thinking about getting this. I'm currently using an HTPC to do scaling and aspect ratio control of my movies, but watch tv thru my hd cable box and have no aspect ratio on that box.


For those of you with this device and a 720p display device, am I correct you see no change in the image quality when feeding it a 1080i source? be it cable/hddvd/bluray?


thanks.


----------



## MoG

ok. just bought it. i'm looking for advice on the best way to hook up audio.


my AVR does *not* have HDMI, but all my video devices do (3 total.)


so i'll connect all the video devices directly to the KD via HDMI.


however, for audio, should I connect all three directly to my AVR via the TOSlink optical they all have? will that lead to lipsync issues? the other option is to involve the KD in the audio portion of the signal.


thanks.


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MoG* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ok. just bought it. i'm looking for advice on the best way to hook up audio.
> 
> 
> my AVR does *not* have HDMI, but all my video devices do (3 total.)
> 
> 
> so i'll connect all the video devices directly to the KD via HDMI.
> 
> 
> however, for audio, should I connect all three directly to my AVR via the TOSlink optical they all have? will that lead to lipsync issues? the other option is to involve the KD in the audio portion of the signal.
> 
> 
> thanks.



You will want to connect your source TOSlink cables to the Key Digital unit and then run one toslink cable from the Key Digital Out to your AVR. That is how mine is setup and I have no lipsync issues.


----------



## MoG

Thanks for the info acegamer.


----------



## Jack Gilvey




> Quote:
> No scaler (or any other device I know of) can add source resolution...Or, did I completely miss your intention?.



Sorry...wasn't so clear. Please correct up any concepts I've screwed up.


At the moment I'm running CIH with a 2.35 screen using an AE900 and zooming in for 2.35 fare. Zooming gives me all the source's resolution for SD, and is simple for me to do, but with HD I'm leaving quite a bit behind by viewing only ~540 lines of the ~840 on an HD 2.35 film or my pj's 720 vertical res. I do have a Panamorph 752 I'm not using lacking an appropriate scaler for HD. I wouldn't bother to add AR control just for the convenience putting the lens in would add.

So what I want is a scaler that will take the full 1080i output of my A2 and use it to vertically stretch 2.35 then send a 720p feed to my pj (the internal scaler of which isn't great). I want 720p of actual source resolution mapped to my panel. As I understand it, some bob 1080i to 540p _then_ stretch it, which would give me the same source resolution I'm viewing now.


----------



## CAVX

From what I understand about this product (the KD scaler), it will allow you to add your lens back in and use more source rez with your 720 panel...


Mark


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jack Gilvey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry...wasn't so clear. Please correct up any concepts I've screwed up.
> 
> 
> At the moment I'm running CIH with a 2.35 screen using an AE900 and zooming in for 2.35 fare. Zooming gives me all the source's resolution for SD, and is simple for me to do, but with HD I'm leaving quite a bit behind by viewing only ~540 lines of the ~840 on an HD 2.35 film or my pj's 720 vertical res. I do have a Panamorph 752 I'm not using lacking an appropriate scaler for HD. I wouldn't bother to add AR control just for the convenience putting the lens in would add.
> 
> So what I want is a scaler that will take the full 1080i output of my A2 and use it to vertically stretch 2.35 then send a 720p feed to my pj (the internal scaler of which isn't great). I want 720p of actual source resolution mapped to my panel. As I understand it, some bob 1080i to 540p _then_ stretch it, which would give me the same source resolution I'm viewing now.



So your AE900 bobs 1080i to 540 in order to convert to 720? That's unfortunate. I honestly don't know if this thing does the same thing or not as I always output the same resolution as the input.


----------



## Jack Gilvey




> Quote:
> So your AE900 bobs 1080i to 540 in order to convert to 720?



That I don't know. I just find feeding it its native resolution looks better.

I guess what I need is a scaler that de-interlaces before stretching, then scales to 720p for me. Optoma pointed out to me that their HD72 bobs to 540 before adding the stretch, so I didn't want that in a scaler.


----------



## MoG

hooked up my KD HDMI 4x1 switcher last night that I got from Digital Connection.


Works great!


Currently have my HD cable box (SA8300HD DVR) and PS3 connected to it. Will soon have a Toshiba HD DVD player connected. Those are my only source components so far, so I have room for one more HD HDMI source!


i haven't done any analysis to see how well the video processing works, but the stretch works fine. i use it for vertical stretch as my lens (H1200M) does horizontal stretch.


i have a 720p projector and have set the KD to output 720p. I have my cable box set to pass through, so it is outputing 720p and 1080i, and I have my PS3 set to output 720p.


a great solution for CIH ownes IMHO!


----------



## oraclation

MoG,


I am using the HDMI4x1 also, but I have noticed a problem in 720p:


Regardless of the source (BD, SDDVD, HDDVR), and regardless of the cables, and regardless of the 720p projector, I see a slight tearing in PASS THROUGH mode at 720p and VERTICAL ZOOM. In FULL mode there is no tearing. Nor is there tearing at 1080i, just not quite as sharp.


Similar to you, the entire chain is 720p.


The problem is not that noticeable. If you set it to VERTICAL ZOOM every once in a while (mostly during horizontal panning), there is a fine horizontal line that quick moves from the top of the screen to the middle and disappears. If you look really close, the image above and below the line are slightly shifted a few pixels or more.


Could you let me know if you have experience a similar issue?


Thanks!


----------



## A/Vspec

Sounds like tearing.


I have seen this on lots of processors.


----------



## Allen

I have seen it occasionally in vertical stretch also, same scaler. Since I now have a Panny 100u, I use the panny for the vertical stretch, and the problem no longer appears. I haven't seen this artifact in the pillar box mode.


Allen


----------



## ebr

Wow. I've never seen any tearing with mine and everything runs through it. I always have it set to not scale though (input and output res the same).


----------



## oraclation




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow. I've never seen any tearing with mine and everything runs through it. I always have it set to not scale though (input and output res the same).



EBR,


Is your entire chain running at 720p, including a 720p projector? because I don't see this at 1080i, only 720p. Like you, I am also using pass through mode and only the vertical zoom feature is enabled.


If your setup is all 720p, could you test this when you get a chance by looking closely at the upper half of the image for a thin horizontal line quickly moving downward from the top of the screen. I hope you don't start noticing it now...










Also, if you set the output to 480p (while in vertical zoom), does the far right side of the image (~15% of the image width) have some pixelation?


I really appreciate anyone confirming this for me.


Thanks!!!


----------



## ebr

My projector is 1080p. I run my HTPC at 720p and my HD-Tivo and HD-DVD player at 1080i - switching resolutions on the KD unit accordingly.


I am familar with tearing as I had a real problem with it when setting up my HTPC. I had horrible tearing with the ffdshow decoders and was able to get rid of it by using the nVidia ones instead.


I've seen no instances of tearing with the current setup though.


----------



## wcaughey

I have experienced this tearing. It is also present with 480p sources, that you ask the scaler to upconvert to 720p and vstretch.


----------



## oraclation




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wcaughey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have experienced this tearing. It is also present with 480p sources, that you ask the scaler to upconvert to 720p and vstretch.



The store where I bought this unit confirmed that all units have this problem, including the latest model KD-VPHD2.


He said the a rep was planning to visit the store and is working on a firmware update which may or may not fix it.


If I hear anything, I'll keep you posted...


Thanks


----------



## bialio

Does the KD 4x1 remember the stretch mode that you have each of the four channels set up for? Or does it default to no stretch when switching between inputs.


btl.


----------



## Allen

It remembers the aspect ratio for each input.


----------



## oraclation




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oraclation* /forum/post/11276900
> 
> 
> The store where I bought this unit confirmed that all units have this problem, including the latest model KD-VPHD2.
> 
> 
> He said the a rep was planning to visit the store and is working on a firmware update which may or may not fix it.
> 
> 
> If I hear anything, I'll keep you posted...
> 
> 
> Thanks




Amazingly, Key Digital just released a firmware update to correct this problem. Go to the Key Digital website for download. It say v3.18, but I think it's actually v3.8


Thanks


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oraclation* /forum/post/12133698
> 
> 
> Amazingly, Key Digital just released a firmware update to correct this problem. Go to the Key Digital website for download. It say v3.18, but I think it's actually v3.8
> 
> 
> Thanks



I'll be interested in reports of anyone who installs the new firmware. I have now had a few instances of tearing occurring - but only for a bit and then it goes away (and, also, only on a 720p source). Since its not _too_ broken, I don't want to risk fixing it until we're sure there are no other problems introduced.


----------



## oraclation




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/12133986
> 
> 
> I'll be interested in reports of anyone who installs the new firmware. I have now had a few instances of tearing occurring - but only for a bit and then it goes away (and, also, only on a 720p source). Since its not _too_ broken, I don't want to risk fixing it until we're sure there are no other problems introduced.



I have the same concerns, but I'm willing to take the risk. I'm currently outputting 1080i from my PS3 to the processor then 720p out to my 720p projector. I hope to gain something having a fully 720p chain. Unless the PS3 does a terrible job of 1080p to 720p downscaling of BD, I should see some improvement.


I'll keep you posted.


----------



## VTPete

Guys, are we talking the Key Digital "HDMI4x1" or the Key Digital Chroma Series "KD-HDMI4x1"?


And, why would they create two products that have such similar model numbers? Oh well.


-Pete


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *VTPete* /forum/post/12134262
> 
> 
> Guys, are we talking the Key Digital "HDMI4x1" or the Key Digital Chroma Series "KD-HDMI4x1"?
> 
> 
> And, why would they create two products that have such similar model numbers? Oh well.
> 
> 
> -Pete



Its the first one and its discontinued. So, I guess its been replaced by the second one.


----------



## VTPete

Well, Digital Connection had one of the original HDMI4x1s as an open box special for $399, so I snatched it up.


I looked at the new one and oddly, the user manual made no reference to a vertical stretch feature. That, and being at least twice the price of the old one made me spend the $399 on the old one.


Cross your fingers for me... we'll see how this goes. $399 is about 1/10th the price of a VP-50, Crystalio II, etc. We'll see how this gambit works out.


-Pete


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *VTPete* /forum/post/12141910
> 
> 
> Well, Digital Connection had one of the original HDMI4x1s as an open box special for $399, so I snatched it up.
> 
> 
> I looked at the new one and oddly, the user manual made no reference to a vertical stretch feature. That, and being at least twice the price of the old one made me spend the $399 on the old one.
> 
> 
> Cross your fingers for me... we'll see how this goes. $3999 is about 1/10th the price of a VP-50, Crystalio II, etc. We'll see how this gambit works out.
> 
> 
> -Pete



If all you want is aspect control for a 2.35 setup - then you will be very happy. Several of us are using it for that purpose and it does the job well. Even with 1080 material.


The replacement missing this feature is why we all jumped on the discontinued model as well. I imagine the new one is a better scaler but I didn't need that - just needed the stretch modes for hi def material.


----------



## ebr

BTW - does anyone have discrete IR codes for the AR modes for this puppy? The link at KD is broken and I couldn't find it at remote central. I've been using RS232 to control it but, actually, I forgot it even had a remote since I spent so much time getting the RS232 to work. Now I'd like to be able to set the aspect from my MX-800 as well.


----------



## bialio

I've got one of these also. It does a pretty good job, although sometimes if I use 720p on one of the inputs I get some tearing in the picture. I just work around that by not using 720p










I too would like to know if there are discrete codes for AR - would be a nice addition to my Harmony remote if so......


btl.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bialio* /forum/post/12142582
> 
> 
> I've got one of these also. It does a pretty good job, although sometimes if I use 720p on one of the inputs I get some tearing in the picture. I just work around that by not using 720p
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I too would like to know if there are discrete codes for AR - would be a nice addition to my Harmony remote if so......
> 
> 
> btl.



Look a few posts up - there is new firmware apparently that is supposed to fix this. I don't see it much so I haven't taken the risk of updating yet. Feel like a guinea pig...?


----------



## bialio

Yeah, I applied that firmware update about 1 week ago. Didn't help with the problems I'm having.


I'm not sure what the firmware release was aimed at. I got mine from DigitalConnection for $499 on one of their power buys - and received an email towards the end of October that said :



> Quote:
> We received some reports of problems with vertical stretch in 720p mode, as well as observed that the image quality while very good could be improved upon for a few customers with specific type of display, one that expects 0-255 range video level. We worked with the engineers at Key Digital to come up with a solution, which we are currently testing and hope to release the firmware in about one week.



So I don't know if 3.8 (aka as 3.18) was really aimed at the tearing or not.....


btl.


----------



## ebr

I just found a .ccf file on the KD site (found a different link that worked). Unfortunately, however, it just replicates the physical remote keys (jeez, I can do that...). No discrete codes







.


----------



## Steve Dodds

With a bit of juggling, you can get an Optoma HD3000 for close to nothing. The Optoma HD7300 is available online (with rebates) for $1100. It comes with a dedicated HD3000 scaler. You can probably flip the projector for close to $1100.


Voila. Free scaler.


----------



## Anthony1

I'm kinda late to the party here. Ok, here is my situation. I have a Mitsubish HD1000u. It cannot do the 2:35:1 thing with High Def stuff. So, that means I either need to get a scaler, or I need to get another projector.


My question is.... why spend $600 or so on a scaler, when I can sell my current projector for like a $300 loss, and just buy a brand new projector that can scale the HD stuff for 2:35:1?


This way, I don't need a seperate scaler, and don't have to worry about all that. Sure, it sucks to have to sell my HD1000u, because I really like it, and it's performed like a champ, but why pay $600 for a scaler? There has to be a solid under 1 grand 720p DLP projector that can scale HD material to 2:35:1 right?


----------



## A/Vspec

Well Anthony, that is exactly what I did... but it ended up costing me about $1000.


I had the Sony Pearl which I paid $3500 for. I put 75 hours on it and sold it for $2500 and picked up the Black Pearl which or course has the vertical stretch.


I look at is I paid $1000 for a nice vertical stretch scaler (built in) and added panel convergance and a sharper picture.


Well worth it IMO.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Anthony1* /forum/post/12166755
> 
> 
> I'm kinda late to the party here. Ok, here is my situation. I have a Mitsubish HD1000u. It cannot do the 2:35:1 thing with High Def stuff. So, that means I either need to get a scaler, or I need to get another projector.
> 
> 
> My question is.... why spend $600 or so on a scaler, when I can sell my current projector for like a $300 loss, and just buy a brand new projector that can scale the HD stuff for 2:35:1?
> 
> 
> This way, I don't need a seperate scaler, and don't have to worry about all that. Sure, it sucks to have to sell my HD1000u, because I really like it, and it's performed like a champ, but why pay $600 for a scaler? There has to be a solid under 1 grand 720p DLP projector that can scale HD material to 2:35:1 right?



If that's an option for you, its a great one. Wasn't really an option for me. I really like my Ruby and would have taken a lot more than a $300 loss on it. Plus, at the time I got my KD unit I'm not sure there was an option as good as my current PJ that could do the necessary stretch.


----------



## Anthony1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Steve Dodds* /forum/post/12148254
> 
> 
> With a bit of juggling, you can get an Optoma HD3000 for close to nothing. The Optoma HD7300 is available online (with rebates) for $1100. It comes with a dedicated HD3000 scaler. You can probably flip the projector for close to $1100.
> 
> 
> Voila. Free scaler.



Interesting.


----------



## John Nelson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Steve Dodds* /forum/post/12148254
> 
> 
> With a bit of juggling, you can get an Optoma HD3000 for close to nothing. The Optoma HD7300 is available online (with rebates) for $1100. It comes with a dedicated HD3000 scaler. You can probably flip the projector for close to $1100.
> 
> 
> Voila. Free scaler.



Am in correct in that the HD3000 will not accept 1080P from my PC HDMI?


----------



## Nasty N8

Just picked up a Lumagen HDQ for $1000 shipped will work for my setup. Accepts 1080P and outputs [email protected] to my Pearl.


Nate


----------



## mustang5o




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Anthony1* /forum/post/12191480
> 
> 
> I'm trying to do this myself, wish me luck. I just ordered the combo tonite, and already have the HD7300 on Ebay for $999, lol. Man, I hope I'm able to sell the damn projector. I'd rather keep my Mits HD1000u, cause I need a long throw projector.



Where do you get this combo?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nasty N8* /forum/post/12194216
> 
> 
> Just picked up a Lumagen HDQ for $1000 shipped will work for my setup. Accepts 1080P and outputs [email protected] to my Pearl.
> 
> 
> Nate



Does Lumagen make an HDMI processor yet?


----------



## Nasty N8

Yes the Radiance at $3999msrp but all there others will do HDMI with HDMI/DVI addapters simple.


Nate


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nasty N8* /forum/post/12203624
> 
> 
> Yes the Radiance at $3999msrp but all there others will do HDMI with HDMI/DVI addapters simple.
> 
> 
> Nate



It wasn't so simple not too long ago. Maybe they have it all worked out but there used to be a LOT of problems with DVI and some projectors and other gear.


On the Radiance - with the availability of true HD content now and great upscaling players like the A2 I just don't see where the market for a four _thousand_ dollar outboard scaler is anymore...I guess its with the "money is no object" crowd. But, even then, they're paying an awful lot for...what? The ability to scale old, cruddy 480i TV shows the best they can be? I don't get it.


----------



## Bokusf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Anthony1* /forum/post/12191480
> 
> 
> I'm trying to do this myself, wish me luck. I just ordered the combo tonite, and already have the HD7300 on Ebay for $999, lol. Man, I hope I'm able to sell the damn projector. I'd rather keep my Mits HD1000u, cause I need a long throw projector.



Good luck I'm sure u'll have no problem.

I was considering going that direction myself but i hear that the 3000 that ships with the 7100 is locked at 720p


----------



## VTPete

Wish me luck guys... according to UPS my HDMI4x1 is going to be delivered in the next hour. After the baby goes to bed I'll be seeing what it's like to vertically stretch hi def signals. I'm crossing my fingers that playing 60hz instead of 24hz won't be too much of a letdown. ($399 for the HDMI4x1 from Key Digital.)

-Pete


----------



## VTPete

Ok, Baby went to bed and I got to play with it! It works exactly as advertised and stretches the 1080i signal perfectly.


Pros: Works exactly as advertised with no glitches that I see (I only tested the 1080i input setting though.)


Cons: Yup, there's a bit of judder now... same as if I sent 60hz directly to my projector rather than the native 24hz of blu ray. And, the other downside is that it's yet one more device I have to turn off and on. Guess it's time for a universal remote!!!


Definitely worth the $399 I spent on it. Oh, and I like the test patterns and other cool stuff you can do with it.

-Pete


----------



## oman321

If anyone's still thinking about this unit or how to get into a CIH setup with an affordable scaler it might be time to get off the fence.


The price of this unit has dropped another $100.00 bucks and they have 4 left. Ordered mine today.

http://www.digitalconnection.com/pro.../kdhdmi4x1.asp


----------



## ebr

Mine has worked flawlessly for nearly a year so I recommend it as well.


As an aside, do the newer projectors all support aspect control on hi-def inputs now?


----------



## babybike

Hello all, I really need your help. I stepped into this CIH nirvana with this scaler. Received mine a few weeks ago. To my dismay, I have not been able to get this HDMI4x1 scaler to accept input of 1080i 60Hz from my PS3. I have done the following:-


1) If I remove the scaler and let the PS3 bypass the 1080i 60Hz signal directly to my projector, the projector works. Put back the scaler into the video chain, the HDMI4x1 will show "not supported".


2) Change all the HDMI cables. The HDMI4x1 still doesnt support the signal.


3) Upgrade firmware of the scaler to v3.(1)8 from the website. The HDMI4x1 still doesnt support the signal.


4) Upgrade firmware of PS3 to v2.10. The HDMI4x1 still doesnt support the signal.


5) Check video settings again in PS3 and remove the scaler to check if 1080i 60Hz is being output directly to the proejctor....yes. Put the scaler back, the HDMI4x1 shows "not supported".


What could be the fault? Thanks in advance for any help rendered.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *babybike* /forum/post/13231973
> 
> 
> Hello all, I really need your help. I stepped into this CIH nirvana with this scaler. Received mine a few weeks ago. To my dismay, I have not been able to get this HDMI4x1 scaler to accept input of 1080i 60Hz from my PS3. I have done the following:-
> 
> 
> 1) If I remove the scaler and let the PS3 bypass the 1080i 60Hz signal directly to my projector, the projector works. Put back the scaler into the video chain, the HDMI4x1 will show "not supported".
> 
> 
> 2) Change all the HDMI cables. The HDMI4x1 still doesnt support the signal.
> 
> 
> 3) Upgrade firmware of the scaler to v3.(1)8 from the website. The HDMI4x1 still doesnt support the signal.
> 
> 
> 4) Upgrade firmware of PS3 to v2.10. The HDMI4x1 still doesnt support the signal.
> 
> 
> 5) Check video settings again in PS3 and remove the scaler to check if 1080i 60Hz is being output directly to the proejctor....yes. Put the scaler back, the HDMI4x1 shows "not supported".
> 
> 
> What could be the fault? Thanks in advance for any help rendered.



Are you really sure the PS3 is sending 1080/60i? I have a PS3 and run it through this device with 1080/60i. Is it possible the PS3 is actually setup to send 1080/60(or 24)p? I know it won't accept that.


I know you said your display reported the PS3 was sending 1080/60i but that could be explained via the handshake routine when directly connected. Inserting the scaler would screw up that communication...


So, look in the video output settings for HDMI and make sure that 1080p is unchecked.


----------



## babybike

Yes, my HDMI4x1 doesnt seem to accept 1080i 60Hz or even lower res of 720p from the PS3 even after ensuring the the video settings are checked correctly on the PS3 or even a full re-boot ....Puzzling. Any help?


----------



## oman321

Puzzling indeed.


I'm hoping not to have this issue, so im glad to hear it's working for you ebr. I dont have a 1080P display but I have always preferred to feed 1080i to and fro on video sources. I wanted to eventually get a ps3 for blu ray(so long HD DVD







) but that might take a while, I only jumped on this because of the better price and limited quantity. So it's important for this device to work with ps3 in case I go that route vs. a dedicated player. My son's friends and a coworker have a ps3 so I might to hook up with them to test it out. If I get the chance to do so I'll let you what happens babybike.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *babybike* /forum/post/13232707
> 
> 
> Yes, my HDMI4x1 doesnt seem to accept 1080i 60Hz or even lower res of 720p from the PS3 even after ensuring the the video settings are checked correctly on the PS3 or even a full re-boot ....Puzzling. Any help?



So it fails for sources other than the PS3? Have you tried different inputs?


If so, something is definitely wrong. I'd shoot an email to key digital. I've found their support pretty helpful in the past (had to use them to get the RS232 commands to work).


Also, just to be sure, your talking about this unit, right:











I ask because KD actually has a new version out that is totally different but has the same model number.


----------



## atmer

I have the same problem w/ my HDMI4x1 and PS3 w/ my new 1080 projector,Marantz 15S1. Had no problem w/ my 720 Mitsu. HD1000U.

I removed the HDMI4x1 as the new projector has vert. scaling and have had no problem since.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *atmer* /forum/post/13242864
> 
> 
> I have the same problem w/ my HDMI4x1 and PS3 w/ my new 1080 projector,Marantz 15S1. Had no problem w/ my 720 Mitsu. HD1000U.
> 
> I removed the HDMI4x1 as the new projector has vert. scaling and have had no problem since.



Interesting. Did you ask KD about it?


Is there anyone who has one of these who has a PS3 connected directly to it and has it working? Mine is connected via my receiver. Maybe that makes a difference?


----------



## Laserfan

Wondering if there's a firmware rev that's readable at the device; maybe babybike has a different version?


----------



## acegamer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/13244919
> 
> 
> Interesting. Did you ask KD about it?
> 
> 
> Is there anyone who has one of these who has a PS3 connected directly to it and has it working? Mine is connected via my receiver. Maybe that makes a difference?



I have my PS3, HD-DVD player, DVR, and multi-region dvd player connected to the KD HDMI4x1 unit and everything works great. I have all of the devices set to output 1080i into the Key Digital unit. I am using a RS-1 projector.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acegamer* /forum/post/13248528
> 
> 
> I have my PS3, HD-DVD player, DVR, and multi-region dvd player connected to the KD HDMI4x1 unit and everything works great. I have all of the devices set to output 1080i into the Key Digital unit. I am using a RS-1 projector.



Good, then I'm not alone. Mine has always worked fine.


The only glitch I've had is sometimes the auto colorspace sensing doesn't work and I have to manually set it when switching sources.


----------



## VTPete

I too have my HDMI 4x1 hitched up to my PS3, my Popcorn Hour & my HD-A30. All are outputting 1080i60 and it works perfectly. The PS3 and HDMI4x1 work perfectly together. Make absolutely sure your PS3 isn't outputting 24hz.


On an unrelated note, I had to call up Tech at Key Digital this AM. I talked to a real person immediately... Kudos to them for having their line staffed!


----------



## oman321

Hmmm, this is interesting.


I'm picking up my unit today from the local ups warehouse, so I was looking at the key digital website to see if there are any firmware updates I should be applying.


First of all the firmware update I found appears to be for the new version of the HDMI4X1which is merely a switcher and not a scaler (why pay 800+ for switcher I could never understand). Unless I'm looking in the wrong area the HDMI4X1 is only listed in the switcher section and is the only one that pops up during a search.


I then checked out the video processors section the first unit KD-VPHD2 appears to be identical to the older KD-HDMI4X1 from the front but the back has 2 component inputs and 2 HDMI inputs with an hdmi out. When you go into the product page there is a PS3 notice. Check it out
http://www.keydigital.com/FAQPlaystation.aspx 

It specifically says some versions of the PS3 so I wonder if everyone who uses a PS3 with this device can post the build date of their PS3 perhaps or any other identifying info that might correlate to this issue. Thanks.


Babybike if your still checking out this thread, you said you did the 3.18 firmware update this was under the switcher section of the website, did you confirm with keydigital that this was for the older 4x1 if that is what you are using? Has anyone else done any firmware updates?


Edit: I just called Keydigital. The 4X1 3.18 update is for the Switcher/Scaler unit for those interested.


----------



## bialio

This firmware (3.18) is what I'm running on my HDMI4x1 :

http://www.keydigital.com/Firmware_HDMI4x1.aspx 


My unit works great for 1080i material. I get big tearing when I run anything in at 720p.


btl.


edit - just for clarity, this is the unit I have. A pictures worth a thousand words. Especially when two products have the same name!


----------



## tbritton

Verify your firmware version by pressing '7 -> 0 -> 1' of HDMI4x1 remote.


----------



## oman321




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oman321* /forum/post/13291256
> 
> http://www.keydigital.com/FAQPlaystation.aspx
> 
> It specifically says some versions of the PS3 so I wonder if everyone who uses a PS3 with this device can post the build date of their PS3 perhaps or any other identifying info that might correlate to this issue. Thanks.




Anyone care to post their PS3 model 80GB, 20GB, etc. and build date. Curious as to which it might affect, and if when manually changed you have any luck?


----------



## ebr

I have a 60GB built in March of 07. All works fine.


----------



## oman321

Thanks for the response ebr,


atmer, babybike, how about you guys since you were the folks having the main issue.


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## bmwracer3

So this seems the best place to ask this question... Does the older 4x1HDMI scaler from Key Digital give that much up to say, a VP30? I already have the 4x1 scaler, but if I can get a better de-interlacer/image processing with the DVDO then it might be worth coughing up the difference. Any thoughts on that?


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## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmwracer3* /forum/post/14242760
> 
> 
> So this seems the best place to ask this question... Does the older 4x1HDMI scaler from Key Digital give that much up to say, a VP30? I already have the 4x1 scaler, but if I can get a better de-interlacer/image processing with the DVDO then it might be worth coughing up the difference. Any thoughts on that?



I've never used mine as a scaler but I don't imagine its very good. I just use the AR control modes and make sure the output resolution matches the input. Most projectors (or source components) these days do a pretty good job of scaling/de-interlacing, though...


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## rs232guy

If anyone is looking for a Key Digital HDMI4x1, you can get a factory refurbished or b-stock model with a 90-day warranty at my b stock dot com for $250.


I bought an HD Leeza from this source and had a good experience. _(I have no affiliation with this seller - just passing this info on.)_


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## Lee Weber

A fyi...the new onkyo 906 reciever has isf functions added in and has a mode to do the stretch


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## CAVX




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *W3bbY* /forum/post/14523498
> 
> 
> A fyi...the new onkyo 906 reciever has isf functions added in and has a mode to do the stretch




Really? I know some AVR offer the HS (Yamaha), but I have not seen VS yet. One question - how does one change ARs if that is used with out having to go into a complex menu system?


Mark


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## bmwracer3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rs232guy* /forum/post/14523410
> 
> 
> If anyone is looking for a Key Digital HDMI4x1, you can get a factory refurbished or b-stock model with a 90-day warranty at my b stock dot com for $250.
> 
> 
> I bought an HD Leeza from this source and had a good experience. _(I have no affiliation with this seller - just passing this info on.)_



I'm selling mine in the classifieds too, if anyone is interested. My PJ has enough modes that I'm happy.


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## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bialio* /forum/post/12142740
> 
> 
> Yeah, I applied that firmware update about 1 week ago. Didn't help with the problems I'm having.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what the firmware release was aimed at. I got mine from DigitalConnection for $499 on one of their power buys - and received an email towards the end of October that said :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I don't know if 3.8 (aka as 3.18) was really aimed at the tearing or not.....
> 
> 
> btl.



Did anyone ever get a resolution on this tearing issue? I'm seeing it pretty consistently now on 720p inputs with vertical stretch and its bumming me out...


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## Lee Weber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CAVX* /forum/post/14531309
> 
> 
> Really? I know some AVR offer the HS (Yamaha), but I have not seen VS yet. One question - how does one change ARs if that is used with out having to go into a complex menu system?
> 
> 
> Mark



Quote from the manual

"The “Zoom Mode” can also be set using the [DISPLAY]

button on the remote controller. "


I have not seen unit yet, I have just seen the manual and this post in the onkyo 906 thread...




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jon S* /forum/post/14504454
> 
> 
> Something new here... Zoom mode. You now can stretch a non-anamorphic image to fill the screen. Note that this mode once set, remains that way until you go back into the menu and change it... i.e. if you place an anamorphic movie in, the movie is also stretched out to fill beyond the normal screen.
> 
> 4. here is the so-called ISF mode where an ISF tech can adjust the image to correct grayscale... note that this is NOT the same as CMS to correct color inaccuracies.



I am ordering mine asap









I have a prismasonic H-FE700R on its way (great deal on it 600$







SO i need something for the stretch and this seems to be a perfect fit!



Here is an image of the zoom mode in the 906's manual attached.


PS its also on the TX-NR876 which is a bit cheaper than the 906.


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## ebr

Please let us know how it goes once you get it.


It would seem very odd to have this feature and not have quick access to turn it on and off so hopefully there is a direct IR/RS232/IP command to do it.


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## ebr

Okay, I have a new issue with this unit. I'm tinkering with finally getting BD/HD playback through my HTPC as it appears that a lot of the bugs have been worked out and TMT seems to be a viable solution (I'll find out).


I've ordered my BD/HDDVD combo drive and, in preparation, went to switch my HTPC output to 1080i (have been running it at 720p). Unfortunately, this KD unit appears to completely garble a 1080i input from my PC. It doesn't do this to a 1080i source from either my PS3 or HD-A2 but the PC, when set to 1080i is horrible (even on the desktop). Its like its dropping half the pixels.


If I take the KD unit out of the chain, the picture is fine so I know its not the PC per se but maybe it has something to do with how a video card sends 1080i vs a consumer device?


I'm stumped. Is anyone running 1080i from a PC through this thing and getting good results?


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## babybike

It is interesting to discover that the Onkyo 876 and 906 can do VS! Can anyone advise if the 876 and 906 can do VS for 1080p/24 too? Or is it limited to only 1080i/60?


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## tbase1

I'm running the KD HDMI 4X1 and like it very much. No more moving the lens PERIOD!


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## phisch




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *babybike* /forum/post/15152121
> 
> 
> It is interesting to discover that the Onkyo 876 and 906 can do VS! Can anyone advise if the 876 and 906 can do VS for 1080p/24 too? Or is it limited to only 1080i/60?



I checked into this by reading the 876 owner's thread and found out that it will not do the vertical stretch in the 1080p/24 mode. It will do it in 1080p/60, but will probably introduce judder in the process. I suspect the 906 is the same. I was going to update my 805 to the 876 to get this feature, but it looks like it won't do it. I'm not sure if any other AVR will provide VS in 1080/24, but I'm looking into it. Right now the cheapest scaler with VS and outputs 1080p/24 is the DVDO Edge as far as I can tell.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ebr* /forum/post/15148366
> 
> 
> Okay, I have a new issue with this unit. I'm tinkering with finally getting BD/HD playback through my HTPC as it appears that a lot of the bugs have been worked out and TMT seems to be a viable solution (I'll find out).
> 
> 
> I've ordered my BD/HDDVD combo drive and, in preparation, went to switch my HTPC output to 1080i (have been running it at 720p). Unfortunately, this KD unit appears to completely garble a 1080i input from my PC. It doesn't do this to a 1080i source from either my PS3 or HD-A2 but the PC, when set to 1080i is horrible (even on the desktop). Its like its dropping half the pixels.
> 
> 
> If I take the KD unit out of the chain, the picture is fine so I know its not the PC per se but maybe it has something to do with how a video card sends 1080i vs a consumer device?
> 
> 
> I'm stumped. Is anyone running 1080i from a PC through this thing and getting good results?



FYI I changed video cards and this problem went away. I guess it was something with the card...


----------



## oman321

FYI for anyone looking Visual Apex has a really good price right now for a DVDO Edge video processor. As discussed this unit accepts 1080P and outputs 1080P 24hz.
http://www.visualapex.com/accessorie...-29-08&KW=Edge 

http://www.visualapex.com/ProductSupport/Edge.pdf


----------



## ebr

It sux that we still have to drop this kind of money for nothing but aspect control. There are very few uses for external scaling anymore.


I've been out of touch with the new projectors. Do most of them handle stretching and squeezing of HD sources now...?


----------



## oman321

Seems like most of them do. Epson seems to be the lagger although one of their new models does handle it I believe.


----------



## phisch

Does anyone know if you can customize aspect ratio's with the edge like you can with the vp50?


----------



## tvted




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phisch* /forum/post/15440329
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if you can customize aspect ratio's with the edge like you can with the vp50?



Somewhat, as there are restictions dependant on what you want to do. The Edge is not ideal for all situations but is workable in most. I'm not sure a custom setting could be stored as a button press for recall, but existing presets would likely be satsfactory for most hereabouts.


Some postings in this thread might be of benefit.


ted


----------



## MoG

Hi,


I see this same issue I believe. A horiz. line that scrolls from the top of the image to the bottom. I believe I only see it stretch mode, but haven't paid enough attention to that detail.


I see v3.9 firmware on KD's website. Maybe I'll try upgrading to it...


Mo



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oraclation* /forum/post/11254929
> 
> 
> MoG,
> 
> 
> I am using the HDMI4x1 also, but I have noticed a problem in 720p:
> 
> 
> Regardless of the source (BD, SDDVD, HDDVR), and regardless of the cables, and regardless of the 720p projector, I see a slight tearing in PASS THROUGH mode at 720p and VERTICAL ZOOM. In FULL mode there is no tearing. Nor is there tearing at 1080i, just not quite as sharp.
> 
> 
> Similar to you, the entire chain is 720p.
> 
> 
> The problem is not that noticeable. If you set it to VERTICAL ZOOM every once in a while (mostly during horizontal panning), there is a fine horizontal line that quick moves from the top of the screen to the middle and disappears. If you look really close, the image above and below the line are slightly shifted a few pixels or more.
> 
> 
> Could you let me know if you have experience a similar issue?
> 
> 
> Thanks!


----------



## ericeash

will the Key digital allow me to leave my lens in place and do both horizontal squeeze and vertical stretch? trying to get rid of my HTPC


----------



## swithey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ericeash* /forum/post/16338446
> 
> 
> will the Key digital allow me to leave my lens in place and do both horizontal squeeze and vertical stretch? trying to get rid of my HTPC



Yes but not at the same time. Here are the modes allowed:
Vertically Zoom
Horizontally Zoom
Both (Vertical and Horizontal Zoom)
Pillarbox (squeeze in the sides for 1.78:1 viewing without moving the lens away)
Full/Pass-thru -- no stretching done, sends image out at the native ratio


----------



## Andy238

Anyone know what the Key Digital 3.9 firmware fixes? Anyone upgrade to it?


----------



## CAVX




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phisch* /forum/post/15440329
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if you can customize aspect ratio's with the edge like you can with the vp50?



You can customize the Vertical Stretch. Apparently (so I am told) you can create a custom H-Squeeze, however you then loose the ability to VS at the same time.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andy238* /forum/post/17772747
> 
> 
> Anyone know what the Key Digital 3.9 firmware fixes? Anyone upgrade to it?



Mine works so I'm not mucking with it.


----------



## oman321

I tried to call to see if I could find out, unfortunately it went to voice mail. Mines works too, but I have actually had to exchange it twice. First time the image was cutting out and the audio was inconsistent. The second unit worked fine for about year and then all of a sudden image was gone on the 1st two inputs.


Knock on wood the latest unit has been fine, but if this new firmware does anything it would be nice to know. It would be incredible if it actually allowed for direct selection of stretch mode vs. having to cycle thru each mode. You can perhaps do this with RS232 control but that is an added expense and equipment I don't have right now.


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oman321* /forum/post/17777154
> 
> 
> It would be incredible if it actually allowed for direct selection of stretch mode vs. having to cycle thru each mode. You can perhaps do this with RS232 control but that is an added expense and equipment I don't have right now.



Just FYI I use RS232 to direct select modes and it works well. If you are already using an HTPC its not a big deal to hook up serial. But, if not, It could be.


----------



## oman321

Good to know, hopefully in the not so distant future I will be HTPC compliant


----------



## Andy238

Thanks for the info, Mark. The custom vs mode feature would actually be pretty useful. I recently watched Angels & Demons and in VS mode the bottom line of the subtitle (when they speak italian) was cut off. This is the first time I'd run into this. Anyone else run into this?


Happy Holidays all!


Andy


----------



## ebr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andy238* /forum/post/17782791
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info, Mark. The custom vs mode feature would actually be pretty useful. I recently watched Angels & Demons and in VS mode the bottom line of the subtitle (when they speak italian) was cut off. This is the first time I'd run into this. Anyone else run into this?
> 
> 
> Happy Holidays all!
> 
> 
> Andy



Yep that's a problem with some titles. Some of them are smart enough to format the subs over just the picture area but others bleed down to the black bars. I don't think there's anything you can do about this.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I've now received my used EDGE which I'm planing to replacing my HDQ with (HDMI input auto selection, plus the ability to pass 1080/50p for PC use and 10 bit output for use with my new VideoEQ Pro mainly). I've tried using the HD350's internal VS, but it seems a little softer compared to the HDQ (but only on test patterns to be honest). I've yet to try the EDGE with my projector to see how it compares to the HDQ, so I'll post back my conclusions.


I wondered if anyone else had compared VS of various devices and come to any useful conclusion?


----------

