# Home theater automation software



## cavalier240

I am trying to determine the best way for controlling the components of my home theater. I have been doing a lot of research and I think that the best way to go given my budget constraints is through a software based approach on my HTPC. I currently have a Sony Remote Commander that I have programmed macros into, however, it just doesn't have the same effect or control capabilities as a customizable interface with feedback.


I would like to control the following components:


Denon 3805 receiver (via rs-232)

Neothing Avalon matrix switcher (via rs-232)

Sony KV34XBR800 HDTV (via IR)

Onkyo 5 disc DVD (via IR)

Tivo (via rs-232)

Comcast Motorola HD-DVR (via IR or it also has firewire and usb ports)

HTPC

Infocus 5000 Projector (via rs-232 or IR)

XBOX 360

Maybe lighting in the future


This is what I want to accomplish:

- I want to have a custom interface for controlling each of my components that can be viewed on either a wireless or wired touchscreen panel (or tablet pc through remote desktop)

- I want to still be able to use my IR remotes for simple things such as flipping the channel or controlling volume.

- I want to control as much as possible through rs-232 so that I can have feedback on the current state of each device on my interface

- I want to be able to control each component independently (e.g. turn the receiver volume up using the front knob) and have the system recognize that change

- I want to be able to launch the software that I currently have on the HTPC (e.g. MCE, ITunes, etc)

- I want to be able to create "macros" such as turn dvd player on, switch receiver to dvd, and turn on projector


My HTPC currently has IR Trans software and a front IR receiver that I use to control MCE. I am planning on installing additional serial ports on the back to hook up the rs-232 devices, and then possibly getting an IR out expansion card for the IR devices. The computer is dual-core with 2gb ram, so I am not worried about processing power with it running double duty as the automation controller and media server.


I have been looking mostly into MainLobby and CQC; however I would be open to other suggestions.


With the MainLobby, I know I would need the MainLobby3 program ($99.99), but would I need the MLServer piece as well since I am running everything off of the server? I guess I don't understand what the server component does. Assuming I need the server, that + ML = 179.99. I then need the switcher plugin ($34.99). What else will I need?


With the CQC, I assume it would just be easiest to get the complete package for $495 right now?


Can all of this even be accomplished as I envision it? Please give me as much feedback as possible. Ishould probably also note that I have no interest in automating anything else with the system.


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## IVB

Your requirements will be fine with either package.


Do you already own the neothings? If not, and if you really do have a tight budget and will be the primary driver in this, you could get an Autopatch or one of the other 8 video switchers that CQC can also control for $400ish off eBay, and with the savings you'll more than pay for CQC. (and yes, just get the $495 package now so you get the full deal for $495).


Keep in mind that even if you don't expand your requirements, that's a whole-house license, so you can distribute control to as many PCs as you want later on (ie, you upgrade machines and won't get much $$ selling your old one, so you designate it as a "server") without paying any additional fees.


I can obviously talk for hours more on your setup, but i'll stop there first to see where you want to learn more.


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## majortom

I am curious which TiVo receiver you have that has RS-232 control.


/carmi


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## cavalier240

I already own all of my equipment, so for the time being, that is set in stone.


I guess the area I need explanation on is with the licensing and networking control from additional PCs. So, with the CQC, I can install that on my main HTPC, and then maybe a tablet PC to act as a remote without having to use remote desktop?


With MainLobby, is that the same case, or do I put the MLServer and ML on my HTPC, and then have to buy additional licenses of ML for other computers? If that is the case and I chose to only install ML on my HTPC and use remote desktop, would I need MLServer?


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## cavalier240

I have the Toshiba Tivo/DVD Player model sd-h400. You can find it on the toshiba website, but I am not allowed to post URLs yet.


I never use the DVD part of it. I bought this about 2 years ago because it has a basic version of Tivo that never requires a subscription fee. The only difference that I have noticed between the basic and the subscription versions is that I can only see programming 3 days out instead of 10, but I can still set repeated recordings which is all I care about.


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## IVB

For your CQC question, yes, you can install any and all software bits on any PC or tablet or PDA you have, and not need remote desktop ever again.


For MainLobby, *as I recall*, you must buy at least 1MLServer to go along with MainLobby. The MLServer license allows you to use 5 client connections. So, as long as you only have 1 PC controlling equipment, you only need the 1 MLServer license. It's if you want to use other PCs to control bits that you're going to run into additional MLServer license issues. (i.e., i opted to use my office PC as a 2nd video renderer to go into the autopatch for when it's not in use).


You'd also need to buy:

- Neothings driver ($35)

- (?? Denon Driver) - i see it on this page , as "available for purchase", but there's no place to buy it. It might be a free one, not sure.

- No infocus or tivo driver, if one comes out, that might be either pay or free.


Also, would you want/need DVDLobby/WeatherLobby/CD Ripping/MusicLobby/WebLobby?


BTW, there's a CQC monthly user group webex/teleconference meeting this Sunday, 8:30am PST, if you want to see what it looks like. Check the sticky on the top of the CQC installation forum for login details.


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## Ben Harper

Check out Stardraw Control as well. Requires a little programming but not bad. You can download it for free.


Ben


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## majortom

Are you sure that Toshiba has RS-232 control? There are many other differences between TiVo Basic and full TiVo service, including Home Media and true season passes.


/carmi


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## Dean Roddey

Here are some snaps from my own CQC system, which is a theater oriented system. This is making use of some of the new 2.0 features, such as the new popup interface feature, which I'm using to provide a preview before committing to playing a selection. I'm doing ripped CDs (via our new repository manager) and DVDs are changer based.





















You can see my system in the Gallery tab of the web site (the Small Apartment system gallery), but that's the old 1.6 version of it. I'll be updating my gallery for the 2.0 version here soon when the 2.0 version of the web site is uploaded.


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## cavalier240

IVB - I think I understand what you are saying. If I want to avoid remote desktop, I am looking at $179.99 for MLServer and ML on the HTPC, plus another $99.99 for a second ML on a tablet. I then have at least $34.99 in plugins, so I am at a minimum of $315.00


Would I need to purchase the various Lobby packages (e.g. DVDLobby), or can I make it work with the existing software that I have now? I mainly use MCE, iTunes, and the Nero Ultimate suite.


Dean - Does CQC have built in support for the denon, neothings, tivo, and infocus? Also, how does it handle interfacing with existing software programs?


Two additional questions:

1) How do you program the IR codes that the system sends out to the devices controlled via IR?


2) Assuming I have to buy 3 plugins, 2 licenses, and one server for Main Lobby, that would be around $385.00. The CQC is $495 + $95/year maintenance. Can someone justify the cost difference to me?


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## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavalier240* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IVB - I think I understand what you are saying. If I want to avoid remote desktop, I am looking at $179.99 for MLServer and ML on the HTPC, plus another $99.99 for a second ML on a tablet. I then have at least $34.99 in plugins, so I am at a minimum of $315.00



I don't think you need ML on the tablet if it's "just" a client, and not actually controlling anything. I'm not positive though. But, if you ever need to use a 2nd PC for control purposes (i.e., use something like my office PC to render TV/DVD), then you'd need ML for that.



> Quote:
> Would I need to purchase the various Lobby packages (e.g. DVDLobby), or can I make it work with the existing software that I have now? I mainly use MCE, iTunes, and the Nero Ultimate suite.



I'm not actually sure - when I was evaluating it, I was going with their pre-generated interfaces. Honestly this is one of Cinemar's advantages over CQC - the availability of "pre-built" interfaces for the average consumer. CQC is more targeted towards the professional or pro-sumer, who doesn't mind building his own interfaces. It will absolutely take more time to learn & setup, but once you do, it'll be much more of a "custom fit" to your needs, which will only drive WAF that much higher.



> Quote:
> Dean - Does CQC have built in support for the denon, neothings, tivo, and infocus? Also, how does it handle interfacing with existing software programs?



I happen to know since I also have a Denon3805. If you look at the Learn.Supported Devices page on the charmedquark site, you'll see all the devices that have current support. There's about 100 there. There's another 46 in development or beta , and I think Dean said about 30 will be in the V2.0 product.


There's support for the Denon and Neothings, I see a beta version of an Infocus IN74/IN76 projector but not sure how that maps to yours. Nothing for the tivo.


CQC has an "app control server" that can kick off existing programs, and has current drivers for SageTV, TheaterTek, Zoomplayer. I have it kick off iTunes, but then bypass CQC and use a mouse to control it.


> Quote:
> Two additional questions:
> 
> 1) How do you program the IR codes that the system sends out to the devices controlled via IR?



use a USB-UIRT for this, there's a native driver for it. I spoof this so I can use my MX850's pause button to have CQC send a pause command to either SageTV/TheaterTek/ZoomPlayer/Sony777, based on which one I happen to be using in that room at that time.



> Quote:
> 2) Assuming I have to buy 3 plugins, 2 licenses, and one server for Main Lobby, that would be around $385.00. The CQC is $495 + $95/year maintenance. Can someone justify the cost difference to me?



Apples and oranges. For MainLobby, all you get is the software one-time, upgrades may cost you $$. I know they do small point versions for free (i.e., 3.00.38 is free. 3.1 would be a paid upgrade).


For CQC, the $95/year gets you free minor upgrades. (i.e., 2.1 is free, but 3.0 will cost you).


Also, there's much much much more functionality in CQC than in that $385 ML package. There's a robust event manager, a PDA viewer, a CD ripping engine, a media repository that'll download CD/DVD art off the internet, a web server, and hardware support for over 100 hardware devices. This means that if:

1) that Neothings breaks, or

2) you decide you want to upgrade your 3805,

3) or you want to install CQC on more PCs,

4) you decide you want to add music zones

you won't have to pay any more $$. You're effectively "locked in" at $495 plus $95/year.


At $385, you stand the chance of having to pay more $$ for stuff over time. For me personally, that would have meant $1500 in Cinemar software costs for the same thing that I do now.


In addition, keep in mind that it's on sale now. Once V2.0 goes final, what you get today for $495 (full license) will be $895 (full license). The base package will still be $495, but most folks would want at least 1-2 of the modules at $100/pop.


Honestly, i'm sure either package will be a great choice for you, and frankly it sounds like for your needs, even the $$ amount is generally in the same ballpark. The big question is simply would you prefer to go with

A) a package that's squarely aimed at the consumer (MainLobby), might be a little easier to initially setup, but certainly more limited in functionality, or

B) a package that's squarely aimed at the professional, has a staggering amount of functionality, and is easily implementable by the pro-sumer. There's nothing technical involved, but as there's no pre-canned interfaces, there's more work than an off-the-shelf package.


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## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> For CQC, the $95/year gets you free minor upgrades. (i.e., 2.1 is free, but 3.0 will cost you).



Actually, that's not correct. It will get you all upgrades that come out that year. The issue is minor new components vs. major new components. All the existing optional components so far (web server, event server, XML gateway, and app control) have been of the minor component type, and any new ones like that will just get added to your license when the come out.


The only major component so far is the upcoming media system in 2.0. It is half price for existing customers, and of course is included in the price for new customers at this point. Just by the nature of their being major new chunks of functionality there won't be as many of those as there will be minor ones.


The primary justifications for the price difference are that a) with CQC everything is in the package, so you'll never pay to add support for a new device (unless you buy a driver that some third party has written and decided to charge for, which has never happened so far) and b) it's just a more advanced product in general.


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## IVB




> Quote:
> Actually, that's not correct. It will get you all upgrades that come out that year.



oh! Ok then, there you go, cheaper than I thought. For $95/year, you're totally covered for upgrades. Keep in mind that for the recent round of Cinemar updates, folks had to pay the following:

- $100 for MainLobby

- $20 for each (.)Lobby upgrade


Ok then, so frankly in that case, the Total Cost of Ownership for CQC is definitely cheaper than MainLobby, even for a smaller install like yours.


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## cavalier240

First of all - thank you all for your timely and informative comments.


My major struggle is with initial investment vs ROI. Assuming I would only need one client machine, that would make the initial cost of MainLobby ~ $285. I would then have to buy any future drivers as I update equipment (which I may not do - I am more inclined to leave it alone once I get it running).


I understand that CQC is a more "feature rich" package; however, I am not sure that I will benefit from that. With CQC, in order to be eligible for future drivers, it seems as though I would be locked into the $95/year, which bothers me since I am not sure if I would ever take advantage of that. Dean, do you have any future plans for allowing for al a carte purchases of just the drivers and upgrades that are needed?


It seems to me that the best first step would be to trial each package to see which one I like and fits my needs best. Dean - how long until the special runs up (i.e. any idea when 2.0 will be released?)


On a separate note, my HTPC does not have any serial ports. In order to control via rs-232, is it better to add a serial PCI card and then run DB9/DB9 between, or is it just as good to run a DB9 to usb cable?


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## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> On a separate note, my HTPC does not have any serial ports. In order to control via rs-232, is it better to add a serial PCI card and then run DB9/DB9 between, or is it just as good to run a DB9 to usb cable?



Putting multi-port card in the box is preferable to external ports, if it's reasonable to go that route. It's lower level and one less thing that can become unplugged or messed up by accident, and it's usually cheaper. But an external USB based multi-port box is also a reasonable solution if that's really easier for some reason. The Edgeport boxes are known to be solid.



> Quote:
> It seems to me that the best first step would be to trial each package to see which one I like and fits my needs best. Dean - how long until the special runs up (i.e. any idea when 2.0 will be released?)



I'm probably going to press the '2 week warning buzzer' here soon. It depends on whether we want to wait for the .Net Viewer to be ready or go ahead and get 2.0 out and let the DNV come along afterwards.



> Quote:
> I understand that CQC is a more "feature rich" package; however, I am not sure that I will benefit from that. With CQC, in order to be eligible for future drivers, it seems as though I would be locked into the $95/year, which bothers me since I am not sure if I would ever take advantage of that



I would be willing to bet you'd pay more than that (on average, though not necessary spread out evenly every year) if you go the other way. And it's not just drivers, it's all releases. So 3.0 and 4.0 and so forth as we all slide into our golden years together.


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## cavalier240




> Quote:
> Quote:
> 
> On a separate note, my HTPC does not have any serial ports. In order to control via rs-232, is it better to add a serial PCI card and then run DB9/DB9 between, or is it just as good to run a DB9 to usb cable?





> Quote:
> Putting multi-port card in the box is preferable to external ports, if it's reasonable to go that route. It's lower level and one less thing that can become unplugged or messed up by accident, and it's usually cheaper. But an external USB based multi-port box is also a reasonable solution if that's really easier for some reason. The Edgeport boxes are known to be solid.



Actually, I was referring to either using a internal serial card, or just bypassing the serial port on the HTPC completely and running a usb to DB9 cable between the computer and the component. Thus, each rs-232 controlled component would be connected to its own usb port on the HTPC.


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## IVB




> Quote:
> It seems to me that the best first step would be to trial each package to see which one I like and fits my needs best.



2 thoughts:

1) Don't bother with V1.6 which is the one under the "try" tab - start with the 2.0Beta, link is here 

2) There's a monthly CQC user group webex/teleconference this Sunday @8:30am PST/11:30am EST. If you can connect in from the machine you'll test it out on as the server, we can help you with the install/setup/basic stuff.


BTW, I use an internal Moxa 8-port serial card. Looks like they're down to $40-$60 on eBay.


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## cavalier240

For controlling the IR out of the computer, you suggested the usb-irt. I want to avoid having to blast IR signals, so would something like this work just as well for hardwiring the IR ports?
http://www.digitalconnection.com/pro...ote/ir500p.asp


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## IVB

I believe there's a device driver for that in CQC already, but I don't personally use it so I cannot speak to it. You should ask over on the CQC forums, I think some folks there are using it.


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## barhoram

I would suggest you also look at Girder and Netremote. Girder would run as your back end with plugins controlling all of your equipment via serial or IR. Netremote would run as your front end on a laptop, pocket pc, tablet, UMPC, etc. Netremote also has a plugin for two way control of Media Center. X-10 kepads can also control girder, so you can push one button on the wall when you enter you theater to turn the entire system on, change to the proper inputs, and dim the lights to your preset levels (after allowing enough time to get to your seat), etc.


In my theater I use netremote/girder to control:


Anthem D1 PreAmp (Serial Control)

Harmon Kardon Amp - For Bass Shakers (Serial Control)

Sanyo Projctor (Serial Control)

Lighting - 6 Zones, X-10 (Serial Control)

Pioneer 59AVI (IR)

HTPC - Media Center - (TCP/IP)

XBOX 360 (IR)

HD - TIVO (IR)

Secondary Display - Plasma @ the bar (Serial Control)

Webcams - 6 (web-browser plugin for netremote)


I'm still using the last free version of girder (3.2) and netremote is $89 i think for the latest version and the designer software. You can download most of the serial control files for devices from the girder website. If one has not been created for your equipment, you can create it yourself with the generic serial plugin (free). I created all of the serial control myself (just need the documentation for the commands). The USB-UIRT does have 2 mini-jack emitters, so they would function the same was as the internal card you mention above.


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## cavalier240

Dean: Does CQC support IR receiving and learning of codes from IRTrans? My HTPC case has a built in IR receiver which is run by the IR Trans software. I'm picturing my system as receiving codes from that, going through CQC, and then being blasted out through an R2DI card.


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## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Dean: Does CQC support IR receiving and learning of codes from IRTrans? My HTPC case has a built in IR receiver which is run by the IR Trans software. I'm picturing my system as receiving codes from that, going through CQC, and then being blasted out through an R2DI card.



It only supports learning via the USB-UIRT currently. The R2DI doesn't support learning, only receiving, and I'm just now enabling the receiving part of it (waiting for a receiver dongle to arrive.)


But, if you end up getting a UIRT for learning/receiving, then you wouldn't need to wait for (or use) the receiving support in the R2DI. It works well for blasting and has four zones.



> Quote:
> Actually, I was referring to either using a internal serial card, or just bypassing the serial port on the HTPC completely and running a usb to DB9 cable between the computer and the component. Thus, each rs-232 controlled component would be connected to its own usb port on the HTPC.



I would very much avoid USB dongle type cables. They seem to cause no end of problems. If you are going to go USB, then get an external multi-port USB to serial box such as an Edgeport. They are quite reliable. I had one in constant use for well over a year without any problems.


But, if you can do an internal board, I'd go that route. It probably won't actually be any more reliable (since the external multi-port box will be quite reliable), but it's just a safer choice and makes less use of high level operating system functionality. If they are equally convenient, go with the simpler solution.


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## cavalier240

Maybe I didn't phrase that well. I only want to use the R2DI for sending IR codes. The IR receiver built into my case and the IRTrans software are capable of learning IR codes. Can those IR codes be used by CQC? Or MainLobby?


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## IVB

Sorry, feeling a bit slow here - do you want that IR receiver and ITrans software to receive the IR code and have it tell CQC or MainLobby to do something?


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## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Maybe I didn't phrase that well. I only want to use the R2DI for sending IR codes. The IR receiver built into my case and the IRTrans software are capable of learning IR codes. Can those IR codes be used by CQC? Or MainLobby?



I understood you, but probably I just didn't phrase my answer well. The answer is, for CQC, no we don't support the IRTrans. We do support the USB-UIRT, which should be easy enough to mount in the case as well and isn't expensive. It can provide learning and receiving. We also support the R2DI, for blasting right now, but I'm about to add support for receiving to it. But, if you had the UIRT, that would provide receiving and learning, and you could use the R2DI for 4 zones of blasting. You can use them both together without any problem.


If you mean can the captured IR codes from the IRTrans be converted to something that can be used by CQC, I don't know. It would depend on waht format it is in and whether they have a well defined conversion for something like Pronto format.


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## cavalier240




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry, feeling a bit slow here - do you want that IR receiver and ITrans software to receive the IR code and have it tell CQC or MainLobby to do something?



Exactly.


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## IVB

Ok, Dean answered your question about CQC, and I doubt that MainLobby has a driver for it either, but I could be wrong about that. Good question for the Cinemar forums.


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## cavalier240

Does anyone else have any experience with either, or both, of these packages? I would certainly like to hear more opinions and even a description of how you are using the software.


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## LathanM

If you are looking at MainLobby then you need the ML Cient/Server combo to start with. The base install includes a 1 way serial driver that handles hex and ascii so you should be able to control all the serial devices you have. Additonally I would add an 4 or 8 port serial card or a IP serial device like a Global Cache boxes and a USBUIRT IR tranceiver. I personally am not a fan of usb to serial adapters. I have had enough of them die, drop connection, redetect as new devices to never touch one again (nothing like programing a router only to have it loose connection because you plugged in a new USB device).That get you 5 client connection and 1 server, IR control and serial.


If you need 2 way serial control there is an free 2-way serial plug in that is user supported and a new Cinemar supported 2 way serial plugin that is in beta now. Adding the Neothings driver will make it easier to control the matrix switch since all the hard parts are already done. The Denon plugin is in late beta now. They are verifying the functions across the various models. Most of the test have been done with the 4306 and there are post of people testing it with the 4802, 5803 and 3805. You will have to check the message board to see what theyare saying

http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/f...forum.php?f=90 


The biggest difference between CQC and ML is the mindset behind the products. CQC is a developers kit, ML is a preconfigured interface. Both have advantages and disadvantages. It really comes down to how much time do you want to put into it.


Here are some examples of my ML interfaces:

Gallery of all the various interfaces I have been working on
http://project2501.tzo.com/gallery/automation 

http://project2501.tzo.com/gallery/the-screening-room 
http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/f...pic.php?t=8010 

Sat/TiVo Controls









Horoscope









http://project2501.tzo.com/gallery/smoothxl 
http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/f...pic.php?t=9191 

ELK









Security Cameras









http://project2501.tzo.com/gallery/futuratheater 
http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/f...pic.php?t=9504 

DVDLobby









TV/Movie Control


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## simon

I have come from xlobby to CQC.


What words of wisdom can I offer?


The support offered on the CQC forums is nothing short of amazing.

It is an amazing stable programme; the new beta we have been playing with is more than stable enough to be a release client!


Download the trial and give it a go, there are plenty of people on the forum who will be more than happy to help you out.


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## klindy

cavalier,


I can put my vote in for CQC. I've never played around too much with ML so I can't compare the two for you. I have attempted to use some of the others such as XLobby and even played with Girder for a while but couldn't get the results I hoped for.


Like most automation project, I'm trying to integrate several unrelated components into something that can be easily controlled in the way I want to control it. I have whole-house audio (all file based music), distributed video, security, HVAC, sprinkler system, pool, driveway gate, etc.


My background is in industrial automation but only from the management side of things and not programming. I understand what I see and can talk relatively intelligently with programming folks but couldn't write code from scratch if I had too.


I stumbled across CQC here at AVS and researched what I could. It didn't take long to realize the power (read:flexibility) with CQC. It became clear that I could control things they way I wanted too. For me the real question with CQC was could I control WHAT I wanted too.


After reading the forums for a bit, I downloaded the trial package. It took about 2 days and some help from a couple folks on the forum and I had myself enough of a interface to realize that I had the skills to get something workable in place. Another aspect to my project is, as it likely is with most DIY'ers, a constant work in progress. While I said I had a 'whole-house audio' setup, it's not completely installed - at least not to where I want it yet. Mostly I'm waiting on our ability to remodel a room or build a planned addition to fully complete it. CQC allows me to easily adapt my interfaces to accommodate my progress without getting a third party programmer involved.


I have to admit I was a bit daunted by the trial package. I suppose I expected more than was installed. Sure all the components were installed, but I couldn't SEE the path forward as easily as I expected. It took a little investigating and I realized that CQC was a lot like Microsoft Excel - a blank slate with a TON of possibilities. There are a lot of parts/pieces built in and available to use in the way you need.


In the last 6 months or so, I have witnessed an amazing number of new drivers either in the works or completed. The forums have seen quite a few new(er) members come aboard who are skilled, open minded and willing to help out. It's a pretty good group of folks for sure. On top of the support for the software is incredible.


The new media repository should be a great stepping stone onto the next level of functionality. While the foundation is just about to be laid with the newest release, the future functionality should prove to make CQC best in class when it comes to how you can interact with various media resources. Certainly on par with anything else available in any price range. All while maintaining the flexibility of letting me decide how I want to build the interface itself.


Anyway, sorry for the length, but it's hard to envision going wrong with CQC. Worth every penny I've paid.


IVB made reference earlier about a users conference call this Sunday. Feel free to join in and get a flavor for the software and some of the awesome support available from the community.


Keith


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## Squintz

I have a great deal of experience with CQC and very very little with ML.


However, I do have experience with other home control systems such as HomeSeer so I think I can offer a little bit of an opinion that might help you.


The number one thing I learned from using other HA software products is that the support just does not come close to the support provided by the CharmedQuark team. So if for no other reason I would recommend CQC just for the support.


A good forum to search is www.cocoontech.com . Do a search for ML and CQC and see what the users over there are saying.


My personal opinion may be a little biased because I have been following CQC for about 2 years now. I have been using CQC since the 1.3 or 1.4 version. I like CQC because when an issue comes up where you want to do something but can not because of a minor limitation, Dean is always willing to take a look at the problem and work with you to solve those problems. For example: I was writing a web page for my CQC server and wanted to added user level based security. All I did was ask and sure enough the ability to determine what level(Admin, Normal, Limited) a user is during the loading of a web page is now built into 2.0.


CQC is virtually bug free. The bugs that do exist are very very minor and are fixed as soon as they are discovered.


The time between releases is very short with CQC with the exception of this major release. CQC usually puts out an upgrade about once a month or maybe even more often than that. And best of all Dean provides a daily or bi-daily update of the progress on the next release. So you are never left in the dark about weather a feature is going to make it into the next release.


In CQC you do not have to pay for Drivers or Graphics or minor upgrades. There are lots of DIYers like Me and IVB who are willing to work with you to solve any problems you have. Other members are even willing to help you with your graphic needs.


Creating custom interfaces is very simple. Just find the images you want to use for buttons and backgrounds and start adding them. 95% of creating interfaces is point and click. The other 5% is well documented on the CQC web page which you probably will have a hard time find with other software. Dean takes pride in his documentation. Now you even have video tutorials created by the developer himself.


Since I purchase CQC 2 years ago I have only paid $75 to CQC and that was just last month. I wanted to upgrade to their new media server which was considered a major upgrade.


Just visit the CQC forums one any given day and you will notice that the amount of user support and support from the developer him self is insane. I almost think dean has a clone. I don't know how one man can possibly visit not only his own forum and support his own customers but then branch out to other forums and assist potential customers all while developing CQC and putting out releases faster than any other software company I know.


I actually can tell you how he does all that. It is because he is a GOOD programmer and is writing GOOD software that does not require him to spend hours appon hours fixing problems. His software works unlike other companies I read about and have used.


On a side note. If you think that you have all the equipment you will ever want I can honestly say I don't think that is true. CQC provides the ability for any user to add support to virtually any device. So when you go to buy your next A/V device anyone can write or help you write a driver to control that device. The point I was trying to make here is that it would probably be free. From what I read if you needed support for a device in ML that you would not only have to pay for that support but you would need to convince someone to add that support which may not be likely to happen. Sorry if I am wrong about this assumption.


Good Luck

Hope to see you on the CQC forums

Dave


----------



## Les Auber

cavalier,

I've been a CQC user for about 3 years now from I'd guess version 0.9, 1.0 or thereabouts. First off I can second what Dave, Keith and simon have posted. Support is amazing and the software is rock solid stable. I'm a non-programmer type so the learning curve was a little steep so I tested the support part more then a little.


From the looks of it you'd be controlling much of what I do. Just the theater without a great deal home automation. That may come later for me but wasn't the prime driver. Using CQC I was able to set it up fairly automagically so I could teach anyone to run it in short order. Prior to that it was rather difficult and intensive long term training sessions for anyone that had only pressed the on button for a TV.


I'd found CQC while searching for an alternate to Crestron/AMX. No doubt at all that either one could have done everything I wanted and then some and up front costs where only a little cheaper for the basic set I needed. However, I wouldn't have been able to make changes, add components and expand as time went on without calling in the pros. After searching I came across CQC, the various lobby packages and girder. When reading through the available info and forums I came away with a couple very distinct impressions. Girder and the lobbies were first off front ends to control and HTPC that with add ons could do what I needed. Second was that CQC was designed from the bottom up as a control system that could grow to do literally anything I wanted without additional plugins stuck on to it. The way CQC has grown since I committed has confirmed this original impression. About the only limits is my imagination or abilities.


In reading through your wishlist one thing I'm not sure about is serial control of Tivo. My currrent S3 doesn't have an RS-232 input and my old Sony only had a connection to control satellite STB's. I couldn't find the owners manual or any indication of the serial protocol on Toshibas website for your unit to find out it serial control was possible or if only did what my old Sony does. That's not to say it's impossible but that I couldn't find it.


I don't know the answers to your IR question either. I can say the USB-UIRT works well and that the support Jon Rhees provides for it is quite good also.


I'd suggest spending some time on the CQC forums and downloading the trial version. This will cost nothing but some time. Do the same thing on any other package you are seriously considering. Test drives can answer a host of questions.


----------



## Sparks14

Not sure I can add much except I also use CQC. I would recommend looking around the CQC forums as well as join in on the user conference call. I think you'll find that the support from the users as well as Dean is second to none. There is always someone to help you if you need it. That's one of the biggest reasons I went with CQC. Also, I looked at serveral other products and didn't like the idea that I was going to have to pay for additional drivers and things like that. Sure, with CQC there's the maintenance fee, but for what you get, it's well worth. My vote is for CQC.


----------



## JasonKMonroe

I can also give my vote for CQC. Having demo'd both ML and CQC, I decided on CQC for a 'total' package. Not to mention that drivers are pretty plentiful and there are lots of folks who write them either for free in their spare time or at a small cost (for their time).


I also have the SP5000 projector and as of now, there is no driver for it. As soon as I get a driver completed for my matrix switcher (in progress now), I plan on having someone write a driver for my SP5000. The good thing with CQC is that if someone writes a driver for me, it becomes available to everyone. So with that in mind, the SP5000 driver will be coming soon. :-D


Like IVB mentioned, if youre still on the fence, join the web conference on Sunday. You can see how all of us are using CQC with some real world examples.


- Jason


----------



## cavalier240

Wow - there seems to be quite a consensus. I am in the process of testing out both packages, so I will be sure to keep asking questions as I come across them.


On that note, I received the following private message today, and I was wondering if any of you are part of this "service"? Perhaps I am a bit too worrisome, but I am not sure I trust letting others take control of my computer.



> Quote:
> If you decide to go with CQC or at least give it a try then you may want to download MSN Messenger and then PM me you MSN address.
> 
> 
> We have a network of users who have installed MSN so that they can get help and provide help to others using the Remote Assistance software built into Windows XP
> 
> 
> Remote Assistance would allow one of use to remotely view your desktop just like Remote Desktop and if you provide us permission we could even control your desktop and assist you with the installation or any else you might need help with.


----------



## Dean Roddey

Various people do use that scheme. I cannot say how secure MSN Msg is, since I don't use it and haven't looked into it.


----------



## IVB

Dollars to donuts thats from squintz - he's the resident MSN god. It's more than likely legit. If you PM me the members name, i'll verify - i have a master list of the MSN handles for the CQC folk.


I can also help out over MSN, although I gotta admit - it's not security, but the dang latency that makes it so hard to use MSN.


----------



## smoothtlk

Cavalier240,

You might be interested in this brand new product that Cinemar has just released
www.cinemaronline.com/hardware.irsolutions.html 

It is a 6 zone IR transmit / Learn / IR input USB device. It installs in an extra PC expansion slot for a very clean installation.


We currently are displaying it and the rest of MainLobby suite at the EHX show in Long Beach. The majority of our demonstrations over the last two days have been to integrators and dealers that are comparing our solution to Crestron and AMX from a capability perspective, ease of programming and configuration and price point.


From quickly reading through this thread, the majority of the MainLobby comments and opinions are dated about 2 years ago. Since then MainLobby has been completely rewritten and is as reliable and robust as any of the other offerings mentioned here. You will not run out of things you want to do. We also have as extensive (or more) of a driver collection, growing at an ever increasing rate.


From what our dealers and customers have told us, that have extensively used both CQC and MainLobby, ML is much easier to get over the learning curve and get real things done. Regarding IVBs comment that dealers have no problem spending lots of time configuring systems - that is not what ALL of the dealers are telling us at this DEALER show. Time is Money. What's your time worth?


Both CQC and ML will meet your needs. I am pretty confident about that because both do just about more than any HA / HT product on the market (at any price).


----------



## cavalier240

smoothtlk,


I'm glad that you have joined our discussion. As a representative of MainLobby, hopefully you can answer some licensing questions for me. I have done searches on your forum, but have not found any clear, concise answers.


As I understand it, I will have to run MLServer on my HTPC which will be controlling the devices. I will also have to run MainLobby on that machine to get the nice interfaces that I design. Now is the confusing part. I also have a laptop and an office machine, so 2 questions:

1) If I want to be able to view my GUIs from either/both of these machines and send commands through my HTPC to my devices, can I do this, or do I need additional licenses? For example, I want to control my music volume from my laptop.

2) If I want to modify my user interfaces from either additional machine, and then have those modifications reflected on my HTPC server, what do I need to do that?


I am looking for a definitive answer of the numbers and types of programs/licenses it would take to achieve said objectives.


On a separate note, I have started playing with each demo. First impressions are this: MainLobby reminds me of Microsoft Visio, where all of the cool icons are already created and you just drag and drop. CQC was very accurately described already as being like Excel - although even at that, I have not found it too difficult at all - the user documentation is excellent.


----------



## Ripper99

Cavalier420 I have used both products extensively and use Mainlobby for at least 8 months and then I switched to CQC which in my opinion is a superior product and has much better support than Mainlobby/Cinemar.


As for questions comments being dated 2 years ago..thats the opinion of smoothtlk someone who is affiliated with Cinemar, I used it from last June until February 2006 so even though it may have changed a little since February the attitude of the company hasn't and I'm sure they still say "Coming soon" every other week which in Cinemar Lingo means "Next year"


CQC is very easy to program and integrate and don't let a person from a competing company who is not a user of the product try to make it sound as though you can not do it.


As for drivers and both companies, CQC definetly without a doubt has more quality drivers in my opinion and lets get one thing straight..they are FREE! Every driver Cinemar seems to come out with they nickel and dime people for and this was yet another reason I left the product and started using CQC.


I'm sure David will reply something stupid like "Time is money and drivers cost to make", while this may be true the users of CQC and the company itself give away virtually every driver for FREE..time is money but greed is greed..enough said.


Another thing while on the subject of *drivers* , read through the list of drivers from both companies and see what actually is a device driver and simply a plugin..there is a huge difference and if you are looking for actual drivers that control hardware CQC definitely has the advantage.


Time is money and whats my time worth? Well it sure the hell wasn't worth the 8 months or so I wasted dealing with Cinemar and a product that never came..over those 8 months David can confirm(I doubt he will) the product never had even 1 update to the core product, while he may say shortly after I stopped using it a completely new version was released it probably will deny that from June 2005 up until the time I left every week he would say "coming soon" but yet nothing came and when it did I was expected to pay more for really nothing in my opinion...he claims I paid a fair price to use Mainlobby that long, I totally disagree I shouldn't have to pay for a buggy product and then wait almost a year and then pay more for another version and likely not have any of the previous problems I seen fixed...I could really care less about some new fangled version if old bugs or problems still exist.


David is correct in his one comment that both CQC and ML will meet your needs but I can assure you CQC will do it more reliably, I have used both products and can say without a doubt CQC is a more stable product...I am not affiliated with either company in a business sense so I think my word on reliability and stability can be trusted from a end user perspective.


Last but not least, CQC users such as myself donate plenty of free graphics for you to use and you wont be charged money for XM radio channel logos or DirecTV logos....before I have someone say they sell them because some users cannot make graphics or because graphics take time and cost money lets get one thing straight..the graphics they are reselling for XM radio or DirecTV are gathered from xmradio.com or lyngsat.com and maybe a couple are touched up and resold...reselling network logos  classy..real classy 


I have created the same XM radio graphics which you can download free for personal use and they weren't simply downloaded from the xmradio webpage and resold for profit..sheesh how low can you go 


Also don't bother wasting money on Alarm keypad graphics, I have made better ones for the Elk and Caddx and they are also free for personal use for all CQC users.


David and Mario from Cinemar both know I offered to provide free graphics for their users, they did not seem to approve of my plan as that might take money away from them or something so instead I moved onto another product that doesn't even care about nickel and diming people for graphics and instead concentrate on a stable and reliable control system.


It doesn't really matter how "Flashy" your touchscreen looks if it doesn't run reliably..you can make your CQC system look anyway you want and don't let others try to feed you a line of crap that Mainlobby looks better...perhaps if you spend $500 extra on graphics it might look slightly better but then again you could just download free graphics from CQC users and have the same sort of looks or do like I do and make your own.


I can make a template for a component in CQC editor and export it will all graphics as an importable package so another user can import and use it..I'm pretty sure you can't do this with Mainlobby and if you could you would probably have to buy David lunch or something for that sorta feature or pay just $49.99 which in Cinemar lingo means "We charge this because programming takes time and our dealers agree we should charge end users to export packages they wish to share, if your not happy with this don't pay and you won't have the feature"


Have a look here at many free graphics I offer for CQC..many more to come..also check out the CQC forums and see what other talented users have created and offer for FREE..none of us is looking to make profit from graphics/drivers and we all share and try to help each other build our dream systems, to most of us this has nothing to do with money and we are simply looking to build our own "Crestron on the cheap" and you won't find a more helpful and freindly group of people than the users of CQC.

http://www.touchscreengraphics.com/gallery2/main.php 

http://www.cqcusers.com:8080/index.p...emid=30&id=150


----------



## cavalier240




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can make a template for a component in CQC editor and export it will all graphics as an importable package so another user can import and use it..I'm pretty sure you can't do this with Mainlobby and if you could you would probably have to buy David lunch or something for that sorta feature or pay just $49.99 which in Cinemar lingo means "We charge this because programming takes time and our dealers agree we should charge end users to export packages they wish to share, if your not happy with this don't pay and you won't have the feature"
> 
> 
> Have a look here at many free graphics I offer for CQC..many more to come..also check out the CQC forums and see what other talented users have created and offer for FREE..none of us is looking to make profit from graphics/drivers and we all share and try to help each other build our dream systems, to most of us this has nothing to do with money and we are simply looking to build our own "Crestron on the cheap" and you won't find a more helpful and freindly group of people than the users of CQC.
> 
> http://www.touchscreengraphics.com/gallery2/main.php
> 
> http://www.cqcusers.com:8080/index.p...emid=30&id=150



Very nice. So if I wanted to use a screen someone else created, I could just import it into my system? For example, I am very impressed with this Denon screen: http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ighlight=denon 


Since I have the same model Denon, if he were to send that to me, I could then import it into my system? Can all the programmed buttons be transferred as well since it would be used on the exact same device?


----------



## T.Wells

I recently embarked on automating my home theater as well. I wanted to get away from the Universal Remote Control style of system (MX-3000 / pronto) and wanted something a little more robust (larger touch screen, DVD and CD images ect). Both of these products being discussed would greatly exceed my immediate needs.


I went ahead and purchased ML and added DVD Lobby as well. I hope to add Music Lobby and Weather Lobby in the future.


While my system is not up and running yet (HT still being built), I've found the folks over at Cinemar to be very helpful. I post on their forums and I have a response from someone (usually David or Mario) very quickly. In addition, I've had numerous people send me their layouts for me to poke around in and learn from. While you can't share licensed material (plug-ins and image libaries), you can share layouts and non-licensed material. I have not telephoned for support but they do offer that personal touch if needed.


I orginally planned to control:

Panasonic AX-100

Denon receiver (not purchased yet, model # not decided either)

Sony CX777ES 400 Disc Changer

Lumagen Video Processor

Panamorph UH350/M350 anamorphic lens for 2.35:1 CIH screen

Screen Masking System (possibly HTIQ system)

Whole home lighting (x10 and Insteon)


Since playing with ML, I now plan to add Music Lobby to control my whole home audio system and WeatherLobby just because it looks so cool on the main page.


Good luck with your project.


- T.Wells


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavalier240* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Very nice. So if I wanted to use a screen someone else created, I could just import it into my system? For example, I am very impressed with this Denon screen: http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ighlight=denon
> 
> 
> Since I have the same model Denon, if he were to send that to me, I could then import it into my system? Can all the programmed buttons be transferred as well since it would be used on the exact same device?



Yep, that's the theory. There's a few steps to follow, not sure if jpants has ever tried exporting templates for others to use, so it might take a little work to get it right, but we could help out with that.


I need to add the caveat that since that's his work, i cannot guarantee he's willing to share, but given that he's written drivers and shared freely with the community, so I would ASSume he would.


Actually, if you can make it to that Sunday webex, you should ask him that soon, and we'll knock this one off then. You could be ready to go with CD/DVD/weather with that denon page in short order.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Since I have the same model Denon, if he were to send that to me, I could then import it into my system? Can all the programmed buttons be transferred as well since it would be used on the exact same device?



Sometimes templates are hard to share because they are designed to coordinate a lot of devices (some of which you don't have) in a very specific way (that isn't the way you want.) But for a template like that one, which is probably solely dealing with the partiuclar device you are interested in, it should be trivial for you to use it. He would just need to export it, and then you load the Denon driver and import the template.


----------



## LathanM

CQC ships with a limited graphic set so of course the community will add to it. It has nothing to do with the product itself only with the user community. Maybe there are more graphic design users using the CQC than ML. Or maybe users aren't happy with the default graphics. Either way it is somewhat of a non issue.u


On the MainLobby graphics front, from what I have seen alot of the users tend to stick with the default interface because it is easier. It is sort of the IE browser effect. Why install new graphics if the ones already there work fine? ML ships with a large set that seems to grow with every build. Combine that with the ability to handle jpeg and swf files and you can pretty much add what every you want very easily.


As a side note, every part of all 3 interfaces I show in this thread are available to the entire group of ML and CQC users if they want them. It comes down to users asking for them and what file format you want.


----------



## Ripper99

Actually the current CQC ships with 1800 graphics as mentioned here by Dean

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=2955 


This only includes a small portion of the user contributed graphics.


As for sticking with default graphics..personally I prefer to have something that doesn't look like everybody else if I can help it, I also don't use Internet Explorer just because it works and use Firefox.


You can also very easily add any sort of graphics to CQC but most tend to use .png converted to the CQC image format.


I totally agree its nice to have stock graphics included for free *but* many of the graphics used to advertise Mainlobby need to be purchased for extra money


Library #0019 = $74.99


Library #0017 = $134.99


Library #0014 = $89.99


Security Library = $44.99


Thermostat Library = $34.99


Home and Media Library = $109.99


XM channel icons = $49.99


Network Logo library $79.99


I'm not saying *all* of these graphics are used to advertise Mainlobby but a good number are and as you can see they are pricey and if you want your setup to look like what is advertised you will need to purchase them.


LathanM... thanks for offering your graphics to users for free, it helps everybody in the long run to make an attractive system without incurring hidden costs not mentioned in advertising.


----------



## Mr.Tim

I've been following this thread closely. I'd like to thank everyone, regardless of which platform they advocate, for being making this such a constructive thread rather than a 'bash the other guy' thread.


Honestly I was initially attracted to MainLobby becuase of the eye candy. And for some of us, including myself, that may be an important part of the purchase. However, the graphics ripper has provided are stunning.


The programming end of the project seems a little more involved with CQC. Would this seem like a fair statement?


For myself, the decision is not between CQC and ML, but between CQC and ML+Homeseer.


With so many options, I had to lay out exactly what I wanted for my system now. It is nice to think about what you might need, but it's an uncertainty.


Right now, I need to interface my CAV6.6, my Ademco 128BP alarm, some thermostats (leaning towards HAI at this time), fingerprint readers, DS 1-wire temp sensors and lastly the RFID sensors from iAutomate. Undecided on lighting interface, looks like Insteon or Z-Wave.


Right now this pretty much dictates what I will have to go with. And I don't think it's a bad choice.


However, I do respect the guys at CQC in that if they are going to support a device, they are going to support it 100%. I would rather know that the device is not supported than be told something is supported and be forever waiting for bug fixes or increased command support.


Thanks again, this thread is great.


Tim


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> The programming end of the project seems a little more involved with CQC. Would this seem like a fair statement?



I guess it depends on how canned a solution you are willing to go with. Something to remember is that one reason that CQC takes a little more effort up front is because it's designed to be very highly configurable and it is extremely flexible. But if you look at the 'ownership lifecyle' of this type of product, once you make a decision it's something you are likely to use for many years. Over that time, your system will change and grow and you will add/replace devices and will probably want to refine and change the system to one degree or another.


So making a decision on a system based on whether it might take a bit longer to set one up vs. the other is really somewhat a tail wagging the dog scenario. What's important in a product that you will use for that long is whether it can grow with you, and not continue to cost you, and remain highly stable. A couple years from now, a small difference in the learning curve will have been long forgotten. What will be important is the power, flexibility, and quality of the product.


The statement has been made a few times that ML has way more free graphics than CQC. But, as mentioned, the shipped set is like 1780 images I think. With the downloadable ones it's over 2000. How many images does ML provide for free?


----------



## Mr.Tim

The other thing about CQC.. Responses are much faster










Actually, the question you quoted was in fact that, a question. I don't think it's a deal breaker one way or the other, but is something I would take into consideration. I won't get into dollar amounts, as I think I could make just as convincing an argument the other way.


As far as graphics, my point was that it there really is not that great a difference, which is substantiated by your last sentence.


The real decision maker for me is that I have chosen the products that I am going to use, and CQC simply does not support them at this time (and neither does ML, but Homeseer does). Again, I don't discredit your product for that-- see my post above.


I know there are problems with the other packages. Just looking at the lag between questions and replies is discouraging. However, allowing the software to dictate what devices you do or do not use would be just another example of the 'tail wagging the dog'.


I have actually been reading some of your tutorials and wondering whether I could write my own support. I guess it's as much a question of how much my time is worth as well as how much I am willing to spend now and in the future.


Again, great thread.


Tim


----------



## IVB

Of your hardware, the rfID is the killer. Many of us have straightup begged Peter of iAutomate to let us write a driver, but he's patently stiffarmed us. (for either CQC or MainLobby). He refuses to publish the protocol, and for obvious reasons we don't want to sniff and reverse-engineer a copyrighted protocol.


The rest of the stuff is stuff that I'm sure someone or other will eventually write a driver for. Hence, I don't personally view it as "allowing software to dictate what devices to use", rather "allowing software to dictate my rollout schedule".


As far as time setting up, LathanM put it perfectly - MainLobby is perfect for the consumer who just wants to install something and have it work quickly, and will probably stick with the default template. CQC is perfect for the pro-sumer who can handle a little elbow grease as they'd want something highly configured for their personal desires regardless, and values deep functionality above all else.


There's probably 5-10 folks that have stated their interest in determining whether CQC is right for them before the price increase. I could always arrange a webex to walk you guys through basic CD/DVD/weather/receiver setup, wouldn't take that long. Plus with the thanksgiving holiday coming up, i've got some bandwidth available.


I'll do anything to unwind after these horrifically political and ugly days at work. Getting you up to speed on CQC and kickstarted is something I can do within a few hours. Getting colleagues to follow a straight line for more than a single meeting isn't doable period.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm sure David will reply something stupid like "Time is money and drivers cost to make", while this may be true the users of CQC and the company itself give away virtually every driver for FREE..time is money but greed is greed..enough said.
> 
> 
> David and Mario from Cinemar both know I offered to provide free graphics for their users, they did not seem to approve of my plan as that might take money away from them or something so instead I moved onto another product that doesn't even care about nickel and diming people for graphics and instead concentrate on a stable and reliable control system.



I happen to prefer CQC as well but that can be expressed without your endless mud slinging and sour grapes. And your statement that you offered to provide them with free graphics is laughable. Maybe they don't like your graphics. Maybe they don't like you. Maybe they prefer to create their own graphics or use their own graphics designer. It makes no difference. It's THEIR company.


----------



## QQQ

p.s. I offered to do all the graphics and UI design for Windows for free if they'd lower the price just a bit. What's wrong with that damn Bill Gates, nickel and diming us to death?!


----------



## LathanM

QQQ, so we won't be seeing a skin it yourself version of Vista comming from Redmon or the high priest temple as I like to call it







.


----------



## QQQ

Hey, the good news is that Microsoft has decided in their infinite wisdom that people who buy Vista should only be allowed to use a copy on two different computers with it....EVER. Because in their words "people don't need to upgrade their computers as frequently any more". I'm a strong believer in the free market and do not throw the word greed around lightly as people have every right to make as much money as they can. But that's worse than greed - that's legalized stealing







.


Sorry for going OT.


p.s. Of course there is the possibility that their new strategy is to start off with a policy so absurd and insane that when they "compromise" after unhappy users start screaming about it that they end up right where they wanted to be in the first place.


----------



## dabreeze1970

Put me on the bandwagon as on interested in determining whether CQC is right for me before the price increase. Supporters of ML and CQC make valid points.. I guess it all depends on your preference... canned/out of the box or a little work/custom system.


IVB...that CQC basic setup webex sounds like a great idea!!! Count me in..if the day is right... holidays are always busy.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dabreeze1970* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Put me on the bandwagon as on interested in determining whether CQC is right for me before the price increase. Supporters of ML and CQC make valid points.. I guess it all depends on your preference... canned/out of the box or a little work/custom system.
> 
> 
> IVB...that CQC basic setup webex sounds like a great idea!!! Count me in..if the day is right... holidays are always busy.



There's already one setup for 8:30am PST/11:30am EST Sunday. Details on the CQC site on the sticky in the installation subforum.


I'm happy to do more setup sessions, just have to figure out the timing. Perhaps thanksgiving day when all my psychotic in-laws are here...


----------



## Mike_W




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey, the good news is that Microsoft has decided in their infinite wisdom that people who buy Vista should only be allowed to use a copy on two different computers with it....EVER. Because in their words "people don't need to upgrade their computers as frequently any more".




This is an old policy that has already been changed. Even if the policy wasn't changed it doesn't matter because as you said "It makes no difference. It's THEIR company."

http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles...rticleid=94117 


Mike_W


----------



## QQQ

Thanks Mike, good to know, that makes me a much happier MS customer. I figured they would change that but did not read that they had. In this instance I don't necessarily agree that my statement (that you quoted) applies but I am not going to go further off topic.


----------



## smoothtlk

Cavalier240,


"As I understand it, I will have to run MLServer on my HTPC which will be controlling the devices. I will also have to run MainLobby on that machine to get the nice interfaces that I design. Now is the confusing part. I also have a laptop and an office machine, so 2 questions:

1) If I want to be able to view my GUIs from either/both of these machines and send commands through my HTPC to my devices, can I do this, or do I need additional licenses? For example, I want to control my music volume from my laptop."


You would need one license of MLServer 3, which provides for up to 5 MainLobby client PCs to concurrantly connect. In other words, you can have 5 "UI" only PCs, controlling the actions on MLServer PC. You can purchase addtional license packs, if your system grows that much, which is unlikely based on our sales numbers. But, if you do expand, it's an easy expansion.



"2) If I want to modify my user interfaces from either additional machine, and then have those modifications reflected on my HTPC server, what do I need to do that?"


Each of the MainLobby Client PCs, includes the Designer. So, you can design scenes from any PC, online or offline, including from a laptop on an airplane - which I was doing on my way to EHX show. This is an advantage of MainLobby over CQC in that you have to be connected to your home system to develop scenes with CQC - dealers have mentioned to us that this is very dealer unfriendly.


"I am looking for a definitive answer of the numbers and types of programs/licenses it would take to achieve said objectives. "


Typical: one license of MLServer 3, and one license of MainLobby 3 for a combo price of $179.99.

If you want to use it to play DVD changer based movies: add $59.99 for DVDLobby 3.

If you want to add control over TheaterTek (a version that is not available any where else but to Cinemar today), for hard drive based movie launch, add $19.99 for the brand new TheaterTek Plugin.


Let me know what other capabilities you are targeted to achieve and I can guide you better.


"On a separate note, I have started playing with each demo. First impressions are this: MainLobby reminds me of Microsoft Visio, where all of the cool icons are already created and you just drag and drop. CQC was very accurately described already as being like Excel - although even at that, I have not found it too difficult at all - the user documentation is excellent."


Yes, our end users and dealers consistently comment that the Mainlobby user interface design tools are, in their opinion (as well as mine), the best in the industry. The response we got at EHX was unanimous, with the pro dealers that found our booth and that could stay for more than 5 minutes.


Thank you for your consideration!



Ripper, you are continuing to beat a dead horse. You continue to this day not to understand very basic portions of the MainLobby application with how to build custom user interfaces using your own graphics and don't want to listen on just how easy it really is. Lathanm has done a fantastic job of displaying just that in some of his excellent work that is probably 90% his own work, using MainLobby as the technology backend to his graphical expertise.


Since you have left Cinemar, you have missed 38 MainLobby client builds, and 145 MLServer builds, each advancing the product suite with graphics, with capabilities, with reliability that is rock solid.


----------



## cavalier240




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Cavalier240,
> 
> 
> "As I understand it, I will have to run MLServer on my HTPC which will be controlling the devices. I will also have to run MainLobby on that machine to get the nice interfaces that I design. Now is the confusing part. I also have a laptop and an office machine, so 2 questions:
> 
> 1) If I want to be able to view my GUIs from either/both of these machines and send commands through my HTPC to my devices, can I do this, or do I need additional licenses? For example, I want to control my music volume from my laptop."
> 
> 
> You would need one license of MLServer 3, which provides for up to 5 MainLobby client PCs to concurrantly connect. In other words, you can have 5 "UI" only PCs, controlling the actions on MLServer PC. You can purchase addtional license packs, if your system grows that much, which is unlikely based on our sales numbers. But, if you do expand, it's an easy expansion.
> 
> 
> 
> "2) If I want to modify my user interfaces from either additional machine, and then have those modifications reflected on my HTPC server, what do I need to do that?"
> 
> 
> Each of the MainLobby Client PCs, includes the Designer. So, you can design scenes from any PC, online or offline, including from a laptop on an airplane - which I was doing on my way to EHX show. This is an advantage of MainLobby over CQC in that you have to be connected to your home system to develop scenes with CQC - dealers have mentioned to us that this is very dealer unfriendly.
> 
> 
> "I am looking for a definitive answer of the numbers and types of programs/licenses it would take to achieve said objectives. "
> 
> 
> Typical: one license of MLServer 3, and one license of MainLobby 3 for a combo price of $179.99.
> 
> If you want to use it to play DVD changer based movies: add $59.99 for DVDLobby 3.
> 
> If you want to add control over TheaterTek (a version that is not available any where else but to Cinemar today), for hard drive based movie launch, add $19.99 for the brand new TheaterTek Plugin.
> 
> 
> Let me know what other capabilities you are targeted to achieve and I can guide you better.



Ok, so if I purchase one license of MainLobby, I could install that on each of my computers that will act as a client/design machine, or will each computer require its own license? I understand that the MLServer will allow each computer to concurrently connect, so I know I only need once license of that.


Using that logic, I am at $180 for the basic program. For my needs, I would then have to add $35.00 for the Neothings Avalon plugin. Is the Denon plugin a separate fee as well? Assuming it is $35.00 as well, that brings my total to $250 before I add any programs.


I don't really have any interest in purchasing additional software (e.g. DVDLobby, theatertek) since I already have DVD and Music programs that I have already spent time creating catalogs and playlists within. If I don't purchase the programs supported by ML, can I use ML to control those other programs?


Another thought - I read that ML only includes 1 way serial communication. Do I have to purchase something else to get 2-way so that I can monitor the current status of my components?


----------



## smoothtlk

"Ok, so if I purchase one license of MainLobby, I could install that on each of my computers that will act as a client/design machine, or will each computer require its own license? I understand that the MLServer will allow each computer to concurrently connect, so I know I only need once license of that."


Yes, that is correct.




"Using that logic, I am at $180 for the basic program. For my needs, I would then have to add $35.00 for the Neothings Avalon plugin. Is the Denon plugin a separate fee as well? Assuming it is $35.00 as well, that brings my total to $250 before I add any programs."


yes, that is correct, but the pricing for the Denon has not been set. I expect it to be priced more than the Neothings, but less than $100.


"I don't really have any interest in purchasing additional software (e.g. DVDLobby, theatertek) since I already have DVD and Music programs that I have already spent time creating catalogs and playlists within. If I don't purchase the programs supported by ML, can I use ML to control those other programs?"


You may, depends on the other apps. For example if you use Zoom Player for software DVD playing, there is a free MLServer plugin for that. You can launch most any PC software with the free MLFileOpen plugin. You can control some apps using the free MLTCPSend plugin. It really depends. Let me know specifically which apps, and maybe I can share some direction.


"Another thought - I read that ML only includes 1 way serial communication. Do I have to purchase something else to get 2-way so that I can monitor the current status of my components?"


There is also a 2 way 3rd party plugin called MLGenericSerial plugin. This is what most are using for their own custom RS232 interfaces. There is a very robust MLGenericDevice plugin in advanced beta, but that will not be a free app. Pricing is not available for that as it is still in beta. But, the beta testers are telling us it is excellent, even in the relatively immature state it is in. My suggestion is to try the free MLGenericSerial with your device. If the device requires more complicated scripting control on the return data (as one example), then you will be able to use the MLGenericDevice once it's available. MLGD was built mostly for dealers so that they can get out of a jamb when a custom plugin is not available for a device and they want to build their own without having to wait on a pro developer (like Cinemar) to build it for them.


See, not so bad afterall and the reason why Cinemar sells "ala carte" as no two installs are the same. Your situation is very typical. When users like IVB and Ripper speak of theirs, they have advanced DIY installations that have tons of "stuff" that most pro installs never need and that most DIY'rs never have the time to implement. So, why pay for things you won't be using?


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> When users like IVB and Ripper speak of theirs, they have advanced DIY installations that have tons of "stuff" that most pro installs never need and that most DIY'rs never have the time to implement. So, why pay for things you won't be using?



Can't speak about ripper, but for me, it was the other way around.


I only bought CQC to control some basic H/T stuff. I had the same opinion as cavalier - why in gods name would I do anything else?


Then, when I realized if I spent the whopping $8 on a serial cable, CQC could control

1) my HVAC. And I hated my Carrier Thermo, cuz I couldn't understand how to program it, plus it didn't have the basic programming I needed. (turn yourself on at 7:15am, turn up the temp by 5 degrees). I sold my new Carrier, got an Aprilaire, an $8 serial cable, 1 free CQC driver, and now I can do HVAC.


2) my irrigation controller. Don't even get me started here. I had a $400 irrigation rainbird controller that I put in myself b/c I was told it was the best. But I'll be damned if I had to spend 45minutes each time I needed to change the schedule, b/c there were 3 different dials and 2 buttons to push, some in concert with each other. (no, not joking). I actually sold my rainbird, got a cheap rain8net, another free driver, and made $$ on this deal (offsetting the cost of CQC







)


In either case, I used the free drivers and out-of-the-box event scheduler to automate this. Now, I can use that same scheduler to turn off the HVAC, all amps, and soon lighting when I put the security into ArmAway mode.


I mean this with the utmost respect for individual preferences: I see zero chance of anyone, in 5 years who'll still feel they "only ever" need to automate one fuction in their house. I personally witnessed this same reaction when Ashton-Tate released Frameworks, the original application that housed a spreadsheet, email, a word processor, a database, and a few other apps, and you could work on any or all of them concurrently. Folks said "well, that's nice, but I have no need to ever work on more than one app at once".


In far less than 5 years from that product release, you literally could not find a single person in the workforce who didn't work on all concurrently, indeed copying from one to the other at will.


In my entirely personal prognostication and I could be dead wrong like many times before: All roads lead to an integrated approach like CQC. The only question is how long before the market realizes this, and just how far ahead of the competition will CQC be by then. After all, even the mighty M$ could wake up to this, but CQC will be on V4 by then. There's no one else even on V1 of an integrated architecture now.


----------



## thartigh

Just so there is not any confusion... I keep hearing people speak about how cqc is very customizable and that mainlobby is more of a pre built system and not very configurable.


Just so anyone on the fence is wondering, mainlobby is very configurable. From what I have read of the cqc manuals I would say that both cqc and mainlobby are equal in that if you can think of something you can do it. (as long as a driver is available)


When I think of customized, I think of things like making the system (based on who is home) unlock the door, turn specific lights on, alert if the mail has come yet, turn on the tv and change to your favorite channel, and display the latest news. Or have very complex logic to turn lights or client computers on, based on room activity as well as decide if the hvac should be adjusted. Or know that since you started the hot tub sequence to kick on the towel warmers.


Both have configurable graphics so I dont think is a big deal. Although with mainlobby you can at least buy it and be instantly up and going. Then as you learn more you can customize anything you can think of as long as you can control it.


The one big thing that would kinda scare me with cqc is, what happens if something were to happen to dean? I dont want to jinx anything so (knock on wood) but what if you were sick and couldnt work for 12 months and could not explain your software design to another programer?


It sounds like dean busts his aZZ working around the clock, which is good but is there someone else in the company that knows the programming inside and out?


Anyhow I use mainlobby and am very happy with everything and the service. I dont always agree wih the pricing but at least I only buy what I need. It seems that once the pricing of cqc goes up and has a anual fee, mainlobby with all the plugins needed for most users will be much cheaper. I understand that a few people (very few) would spend more on all the required plugins.


Since the day I started using mainlobby 3 years ago I have spent just shy of $550


Mainlobby 2 with mlserver 59.99

Mainlobby 3 and mlserver upgarde (with library 0019) 99.99

dvdlobby 59.99

dvdlobby 3 upgrade free

musiclobby 59.99

musiclobby 3 upgrade free

weblobby 45.99

insteon plugin (lighting) 59.99

wgl 800rf plugin (security and motion sensors) 29.99

cdripper 29.99

rs232 2 way plugin free


Things I plan to buy cost $114.97:

Theatertek plugin 19.99

Ip camera plugin 39.99

rain 8 plugin 54.99


after the additions I will have spent approx. $670 and the system should be set for another couple years with no more cost.



With cqc I would have spent a total of $795

cqc $495

3 years of fees $300


add on two more years of fees $200 for a total of $995.


In three weeks to duplicate I would be spending (which I wont):

$895 plus 2 years of annual fees for $200 costing me $1095


Someone mentioned they would have spent $1500 with cinemar. Would you mind breaking that down? I am curious how you would spend that much. I also beleive that the event viewer mentioned, functions the exact way that mlserver does by providing two way information feedback, with if then logic to automat pretty much anything. I am also curious how cqc has more functionality. Could you explain?




Good luck on your choice folks!


----------



## smoothtlk

"I see zero chance of anyone, in 5 years who'll still feel they "only ever" need to automate one fuction in their house."


IVB, don't bet that in Vegas. Many MainLobby customers just choose Music Or Movies as their only usage of MainLobby. Then there are others that purchase our "Monster" suite and go to town. Lots of individual needs / wants out there.



Thartigh, thanx for illustrating one of those choices (yours).


----------



## IVB

Sounds like a single server setup with no PDA access, which is what most Cinemar folks i've noticed have. The thing about CQC folks is that since it's a whole-house license, we end up creating several servers around the house and using our cellphones or PDAs. Not because we need to, but honestly, it's part of the price, so might as well. Even if it's only a small amount of incremental value, may as well squeeze every last bit of return on our investment.


Also, your point on dollar comparison is inaccurate - the $95/year gets you all the upgrades and new minor components that come out that year. If I understand your fee schedule, you paid about $200 in upgrade fees for 2 years, coincidentally the same price as the CQC fee, but got nothing other than the newer version of your current stuff (ie, no new minor components). If, in 2 years, you opt to upgrade again, at another $200, you'll get the latest versions of your stuff. For that same $200, I, however, will have gotten any new minor components that CQC has come out with. (ie, in the last year, that's the event server, XML server, web server, PDA viewer. Only the Media Repository is considered "major").


I'll leave others to talk about their take on functional differences, i'll call one bit out that is my personal deal-killer:Underlying architecture, and what functionality is possible both today and in the future with it. The way Cinemar approaches multi-pc systems is to do this via file-sharing. This is the same basic concept as MS-Access - you can have multiple PCs access the same db concurrently, hope nothing happens at the file level to corrupt it. The way CQC approaches it is much more like Oracle/SQL-Server: You open up a network port to communicate [and i don't mean port 80 which is read-only]. All communications is done that way. Not much argument there over which is more reliable and can withstand a beating better. An offtopic but onforum(HomeAutomation) realworld example of how that will forever and always be more powerful than file-sharing is by looking at how PDA access is, esp from outside your network. With ML, you're forced to use logmein externally, and put junk on your server to access it. Furthermore, either internal or external, you have to transfer the whole screen over. With CQC, it communicates over a network port to get the info. Not allowing direct access means it's more secure, more defensible against instability elsewhere in your system. If you use the same button image 10x on your PDA screens, it'll only send that image 1x, and the client-app can tell it already got it, and not redownload it. Granted, that's an obscure example, but it highlights how architectural choices can make something stand far above what others can't even dream of. I'm currently having an issue where my wife screwed up our office PC, then went over to the laptop, accessed the fileshare, and screwed up stuff even more.


There is literally zero chance i'll expose something like a Home Automation machine, even if it's just HomeTheaterAutomation, to the file-share level of exposure. There's also zero chance i'll schlep around to each machine to copy files locally every time I change an interfce, because that's a monstrous waste of time.

You gain security and performance with CQC, but you give up the luxury of building interfaces offline and on an airplane. That's an easy tradeoff for most of us. If there's a dealer who would prefer his personal convenience over my security & performance, I'm not going to hire him ever.


BTW, I was the one who said it'd cost me $1500 on Cinemar software. I was pricing out my setup on Cinemar after the price hubbub, created the post halfwy down this page on cocoontech , an independent site. Well, it was super-ML friendly and anti-CQC when I got there, so I'd have thought they'd be more than comfortable responding. Here's that post. DavidL(smoothtlk) or mario didn't respond, but a user did to confirm my guesses. There's obviously no way I'd pursue my current route had I gone with Cinemar last year instead of CQC based on price alone, but honestly that just proves my point further: On average, those of us who have CQC will always do more with our systems than those of us who use Cinemar, because it's free for us to do so.


Given the OP's position of "just doing X fxnlty" - If you had to choose between a package where the average person didn't do so much because they'd constantly be paying incremental prices or one where the average person did tons b/c they could, which would you pick? There's no wrong answer here, just like some folks buy 100hp cars and some folks buy 300hp cars - some of us just like knowing the power is there if we ever need it, and it won't cost us a dime extra to use it once we pay the initial cost. They're both entirely legitimate choices.




> Quote:
> I have:
> 
> - CD control
> 
> - Currently 7zones, may expand to 10 based on some architecture modifications.
> 
> - DVD control
> 
> - XM Control
> 
> - Misc Web Browser control [SageTV, CCTV]
> 
> - Irrigation
> 
> - Aprilaire
> 
> - Elk M1
> 
> - Weather
> 
> - PPC for all of above. (which i've now actually used several times)
> 
> 
> I also have:
> 
> - 4 PCs controlling something [either hw or sw], 2 of which are used as clients
> 
> - 2 touchpanels today, 2 more coming as soon as I get all the CCTVs and whole-house a/v working
> 
> 
> Future:
> 
> - I *may* throw out the Xantech and get 2 russounds as i'm sick of all the amps, in which case:
> 
> - HD distro [probably Neothings as I can't get a decent price on autopatch]
> 
> - Yamaha RXV1500 for cheap surround in MBR [eBay has it for $375]
> 
> 
> If I understand the licensing structure, that means I need:
> 
> - 1 MLServer 5-client: $100
> 
> - 1 MLServer 5-client pack [2 PCs plus 4 panels = 6]: $100
> 
> - 2 MLServer 0-client [for 2 PCs that control something]: $140 ($70x2)
> 
> - MainLobby: $100 [only need one, right?]
> 
> - DVDLobby: $60
> 
> - MusicLobby: $60 for 3 zones
> 
> - 2 additional 3zone licenses: $120
> 
> - CD Ripping: $30
> 
> - XMLobby: $60
> 
> - Weather: $60
> 
> - WebLobby: $45
> 
> - XMPocket: $45
> 
> - MusicPocket: $35
> 
> - DVDPocket: $35
> 
> - Rain8 driver: $55
> 
> - elk driver: $100
> 
> - Avalon driver : $35
> 
> - Russound: $55
> 
> - Yamaha: $40
> 
> 
> That's $1275. Is that correct?
> 
> 
> Also, that doesn't address the Aprilaire HVAC: I think I need HS there, so that's:
> 
> - HomeSeer: $190
> 
> - ML plugin: $40
> 
> 
> If that's true, then that's $1505, is that correct?





> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> "I see zero chance of anyone, in 5 years who'll still feel they "only ever" need to automate one fuction in their house."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IVB, don't bet that in Vegas. Many MainLobby customers just choose Music Or Movies as their only usage of MainLobby.
Click to expand...


I'm sure they do, which underscores that above point about average size of an install that much more. However, my point is not "what are people doing today", but "what will people be doing in a few years, and which company is looking at that future and preparing for it today".


Whether folks want to go with a company who's preparing for today or a company that can already well cover today and tomorrow is up to them. Again, no right answer there, there's pros and cons to both sides.


----------



## IVB

BTW, when I did that post I didn't realize you have to pay for the XM graphics ($50), network logo grapics($80), security graphics ($45), and thermo graphics ($35). Grapics at that same level of quality is all free with the CQC product (donated by Ripper). There's another $210. Even if he doesn't donate any more in the future, it's part of the current baseline. And let me tell you something - that guy produces more amazing graphics at a faster rate for his fellow CQC'ers than anyone i've ever seen, and religously donates them all.


Make that $1700 all-in just so I can have what I have today for $495. (intentionally not counting annual fee since as proven above, that's a wash between me & tharthigh).


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thartigh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The one big thing that would kinda scare me with cqc is, what happens if something were to happen to dean? I dont want to jinx anything so (knock on wood) but what if you were sick and couldnt work for 12 months and could not explain your software design to another programer?
> 
> 
> It sounds like dean busts his aZZ working around the clock, which is good but is there someone else in the company that knows the programming inside and out?



As mentioned in the past Mark of CQC also has the code if needed...I guess a person could ask the same and what would happen to Mainlobby if Mario were sick or couldn't work for 12 months?


We have to be realistic here, Dean probably never goes outside or sees the sunlight much..I think I've heard of him being sick once this year and that was probably because he strayed more than 20 meters from the bat cave.


----------



## cavalier240

I would like to preface this next post by reminding people that I am just trying to gather information on the various products in an effort to keep this thread on topic.


As I was searching other forums, I came across the following post. I found it troubling that the developers of MainLobby never directly responded to the allegations of copyright infringement. In terms of future product support, I think a copyright lawsuit would certainly make it difficult for the company to stay in business, and then where would that leave me?


Just a thought. Once again, we've done a good job thus far of preventing this from becoming a bashing thread and purely sharing product/company information.

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?...ainlobby&st=30


----------



## thartigh

I am not bashing or starting a peeing match, just informing and since I have looked at cqc was wondering the answer to those questions. I think both are great software choices.


Its good to see there is a back up plan in place for them.


IVB, you could end up spending that much, like I said just curious how. But you dont need the graphics packages for your system to work. They are there in case you want more than the standard stuff. Or make your own just like cqc. Over all the only difference between are systems is you use xmlobby and ppc's. I handle hvac through the 2-way serial plugin.


As for updates I dont understand what you mean by minor updates. All of them with ML are free unless it is some major update or vesion upgrade. Like smooth said I beleive there have been around 40-50 mainlobby and 140+ with mlserver. Most of the mainlobby ones are to give free graphics and add more functionality.


I used to have multiple servers but have since removed most and moved to a single server. I now use four pc's, #1 is the server slash jrivers pc slash office pc, #2 is strictly dvd player and gaming, #3 is dvd gaming and has a ML client running 2 touch screens and #4 is strictly to run touchscreens. It has two ML clients running 8 touch screens. My system is now all in one rack and very simple to manage. I have seven audio zones but handle it with a 3 license musiclobby. I use the three as sources of audio to a switcher. I either play the same thing through the house or have up to three diferrent different things playing.


My question should have been: What can cqc do that mainlobby cant on the server end? I already know the difference in the back end and agree that it is better than file sharing, but is it really necessary for security purposes? It is still running on windows, a hacker can still get to your files and just delete the cqc directory or manipulate system files to make your system unusable and still get to personal information. Most will already have some form of security (firewalls, ect...). Other than thatt I dont see why I would need all the security. Guest dont come over and mess with my system. The only thing someone could really do is go to the pc's and turn them off, but they are locked in a closet.


I dont need to modify my system from every pc. I use my one server pc to change functionality which does not require distribution. I also use that pc to modify the UI. When finished I just click a batch file that copies the mls. files (ui) and and the image directory over to the other pc's. Then I click a button on any one of the client that closes and restarts all clients. I only do this once in a great while. My system always works and I put alot of thought into the UI so I wouldnt have to keep changing it. If I do, I usually do it off site to keep busy, then use the same procedure update all clients.


I dont use a PDA, I may in the future but I have enough screens around I really dont need something hand held for full control. I do have a couple of x10 wirless (RF) key chain remotes for volume, channel, and next song functions that work inside and outside of the house using the wgl w800rf plugin. If I did use a PDA a think I would like to use Ml because of the sliding menus. It allows for great use of small screens.


Mainlobby also uses a webserver for cover art and has a webserver to use.


Again I just want to point out that both functionally do the same thing but have a different backend design and on may control something that the other doesnt.


----------



## IVB

Running to a meeting, let me answer the quick question first, back in a bit with the other one.



> Quote:
> As for updates I dont understand what you mean by minor updates. All of them with ML are free unless it is some major update or vesion upgrade. Like smooth said I beleive there have been around 40-50 mainlobby and 140+ with mlserver. Most of the mainlobby ones are to give free graphics and add more functionality.



Let me try to explain it this way. If Cinemar had the same annual licensing fee that CQC does, you'd have gotten ALL your upgrades for free. MusicLobby3/ML3/DVD3/etc. Given that the average product puts out 1 major version upgrade per year, and that folks may skip 1 version but will usually do the next one, if you spend $200 per upgrade set on fees you're breaking even with the CQC model.


Where the CQC model comes out in the consumer's favor is if they release a new module (aka component). There's a strong chance you'd even get that for free. Again, had Cinemar followed this, you'd get the following free:

- *Lobby

- actually, don't see anything on the Cinemar suite that would rise to the level of "major component".


In CQC terms, new modules that aren't that big in the bigger pond that is CQC are called minor. That means the following would have been covered under the $95/year fee:

- Application Control Server (control software packages)

- DotNetViewer (pull up any screen on your PDA or low powered PC)

- Event Server

- XML Gateway



> Quote:
> IVB, you could end up spending that much, like I said just curious how. But you dont need the graphics packages for your system to work.



Sure, I don't *need* it. But my point is, I'm using professional-level graphics that are part of the CQC package. In order to do an apples-apples comparison of what CQC costs vs what Cinemar costs, you need to include ALL of what CQC is, not just what you need.


In the end, this is the biggest difference between the pricing models. To determine the total cost of ownership with Cinemar, you need to use your crystal ball to determine what equipment you're going to use, what modules you will use, and how many servers you'll use. If you're wrong, you could end up paying a very heavy price, like I would have.


With CQC, there's only 5 optional modules, and those are even currently on sale for the $495 fee. There's really nothing to worry about - you can do what you want, when you want. For example, given that CQC now supports 8 different video switchers, if you decide you want to do HD distro, you're not forced into buying a Neothings b/c that's the only one with a driver. Go find one with the 8 publicly available and free drivers on eBay and go to town.


----------



## smoothtlk

Cavelier240,

As Mario mentioned, we do not speak about legal issues on public forums.

We purchase data from the best data providers in the business.

For example, we just had meetings with another data provider at the EHX show for a new product.

As far as we know, we license more data than anyone else in the software based automation controller PC business. Our pricing reflects that data quality and license fees.

I don't think your concern is warranted and we don't expose our company to loose it to a silly decision.


----------



## IVB

Ok, all of a few mins until the next meeting, but here goes another quickie:


> Quote:
> My question should have been: What can cqc do that mainlobby cant on the server end? I already know the difference in the back end and agree that it is better than file sharing, but is it really necessary for security purposes? It is still running on windows, a hacker can still get to your files and just delete the cqc directory or manipulate system files to make your system unusable and still get to personal information. Most will already have some form of security (firewalls, ect...). Other than thatt I dont see why I would need all the security. Guest dont come over and mess with my system. The only thing someone could really do is go to the pc's and turn them off, but they are locked in a closet.
> 
> I dont need to modify my system from every pc. I use my one server pc to change functionality which does not require distribution. I also use that pc to modify the UI. When finished I just click a batch file that copies the mls. files (ui) and and the image directory over to the other pc's. Then I click a button on any one of the client that closes and restarts all clients. I only do this once in a great while. My system always works and I put alot of thought into the UI so I wouldnt have to keep changing it. If I do, I usually do it off site to keep busy, then use the same procedure update all clients.



The question is less about what given fxnlty is currently there, and more about the approach and architecture used to deliver the bits. Frankly, you don't even need MainLobby to do what you've done - a much much cheaper license for Girder & Netremote could accomplish the same thing. Same basic theory as the Cinemar suite - use a single-pc based concept and extend it, rather than do a ground-up network architecture. Heck, why even pay the $600 for MainLobby in your case - spend the $200 on Girder/NR and be done with it. After all, can MainLobby really do anything that Girder and NetRemote cannot?


With CQC, you have an entire approach that's meant to be scaleable, flexible, and highly configurable. Plus, as LathanM pointed out, it's an awesome developers toolkit for extending custom RS232 support for devices that don't exist. For example, there's 2 primary languages you can create new drivers and functionality in: CML, the heavyweight OO programming language, and PDL, basically a metadata type "protocol description language". Before Dean had a driver for the Polk XRt12 XM tuner, I sat down in PDL and wrote one. I haven't coded in >10 years, and I got through it in about a day or so. Heck, even my wife who's in marketing looked at the code and said "is that all?" Granted, PDL isn't that flexible, but it's meant to be very very easy to write drivers for simple devices. CML is much much more powerful, and can handle anything you throw at it.


This approach is one of the reasons V2.0 will have somewhere around 130-140 drivers in it - it's so easy to write new drivers, everyone is writing them for their own stuff, and donating/submitting to CQC for certification and inclusion in the G/A product.


And how does that extensive hardware support help you? Well, it helps you not make a hardware decision based on the 1 piece of hardware that the software supports - rather, the other way around: Out of the box, CQC can control 8 video switchers, representing nearly the entire market. (might be up to 11 now in V2.0, not exactly sure). It will lower your overall costs at a higher fit to your requirements.


I didn't need to buy a Neothings after all, as I was able to secure a great deal on an Autopatch. Not an option with Cinemar - it doesn't support it. Now that's 2 different ways that CQC has paid for itself (sold irrigation controller, saved $$ on HD distro).


If you're curious as to how easy it is to do this, here's that sample PDL code.
Code:


Code:


[CQCProto Version="2.0" Encoding="ISO-8859-1"]

// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ProtocolInfo=
    TextEncoding="ASCII";
EndProtocolInfo;

// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
//  Mappings
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maps=


EndMaps;



// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
//  Driver Fields
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fields=

    Field=ChannelSelect    Type=Int4;   Access=ReadWrite; Limits="Range:0,255";  EndField;
    Field=PresetSelect     Type=Int4;   Access=ReadWrite; Limits="Range:1,20";   EndField;
    Field=CategoryLeft     Type=Int4;   Access=ReadWrite; Limits="Range:1,20";   EndField;
    Field=CategoryRight    Type=Int4;   Access=ReadWrite; Limits="Range:1,20";   EndField;
    Field=SelectUp         Type=Int4;   Access=ReadWrite; Limits="Range:1,20";   EndField;
    Field=SelectDown       Type=Int4;   Access=ReadWrite; Limits="Range:1,20";   EndField;


    //
    // These Write-only fields are used to trigger commands which either
    // return nothing, or which return values of a different type than input.
    //
    Field=Mute             Type=Boolean;  Access=Write;  EndField;
    Field=Unmute           Type=Boolean;  Access=Write;  EndField;
    Field=ChangeDisplay    Type=Boolean;  Access=Write;  EndField;
    Field=Jump             Type=Boolean;  Access=Write;  EndField;
    Field=Menu             Type=Boolean;  Access=Write;  EndField;
    Field=Enter            Type=Boolean;  Access=Write;  EndField;

    //
    // These Read-only fields contain information returned by the
    // commands and queries.
    //
    Field=SongTitle             Type=String;  Access=Read;  EndField;
    

EndFields;



// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
//  Query Messages
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Queries=

    Query=ConnectXRt12
        QueryCmd=
           "ConnectXRt12\
";
        EndQueryCmd;
    EndQuery;

    Query=PollSongInformation
        QueryCmd=
           "GetSongInformation\
";
        EndQueryCmd;
    EndQuery;

   
EndQueries;



// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
//  Reply Messages
//
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Replies=

    Reply=SongInformationReply
       Store=
         SongTitle=ExtractStr(&Reply,0,16);
       EndStore;
    EndReply;


    Reply=ConnectReply
        EndReply;

EndReplies;



// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Message Matching
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MsgMatching=
    StateMachine=
         State=MsgBody    
             =Equals(&InputByte, 0x0D); 
             MsgBody=True; 
         EndState;
    EndStateMachine;

    MsgMatches=
       Case=SongInformationReply
         Equals (1,1);
       EndCase;

       Case=ConnectReply
         Equals (1,1);
       EndCase;
       
       
    EndMsgMatches;

EndMsgMatching;


// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
//  Write Commands
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WriteCmds=

    WriteCmd=Jump
        Send=
           "Jump\
";
        EndSend;
    EndWriteCmd;

    WriteCmd=Mute
        Send=
           "Mute\
";
        EndSend;
    EndWriteCmd;

    WriteCmd=Unmute
        Send=
           "Unmute\
";
        EndSend;
    EndWriteCmd;

    WriteCmd=ChannelSelect
        Send=
           "ChannelSelect ";
           ToString(&WriteVal);
           "\
";
        EndSend;
        EndWriteCmd;

    WriteCmd=CategoryRight
        Send=
           "CategoryRight ";
           ToString(&WriteVal);
           "\
";
        EndSend;
    EndWriteCmd;

    WriteCmd=CategoryLeft
        Send=
           "CategoryLeft ";
           ToString(&WriteVal);
           "\
";
        EndSend;
    EndWriteCmd;

    WriteCmd=SelectUp
        Send=
           "SelectUp ";
           ToString(&WriteVal);
           "\
";
        EndSend;
    EndWriteCmd;

    WriteCmd=SelectDown
        Send=
           "SelectDown ";
           ToString(&WriteVal);
           "\
";
        EndSend;
    EndWriteCmd;

    WriteCmd=PresetSelect
        Send=
           "PresetSelect";
           ToString(&WriteVal);
           "\
";
        EndSend;
    EndWriteCmd;

        WriteCmd=ChangeDisplay
        Send=
           "ChangeDisplay\
";
        EndSend;
    EndWriteCmd;

    WriteCmd=Menu
        Send=
           "Menu\
";
        EndSend;
    EndWriteCmd;

EndWriteCmds;



// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
//  Connect Attempt Exchange
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
TryConnect=

    Send=ConnectXRt12;
    Receive=ConnectReply;
    WaitFor=2000;

EndTryConnect;


PollEvents=

    Exchange=
        Send=PollSongInformation;
        Period=3000;
        Receive=SongInformationReply;
        WaitFor=250;
    EndExchange;


EndPollEvents;


----------



## thartigh

Actually girder cant provide what I have. Nor the interface and sliding menus I have. Neither can cqc, at least I dont think. Does it have animated graphics and sliding menus? Also the autopatch works great being controlled my cinemar and the free rs232 2 way plugin. When the new one comes out I may buy it just to get more direct logic rather than writing my own within mlserver. Just because there is not a driver dont mean it cant be controlled.



I am sure we can go round and round here all day! but... I dont use cqc or know all of its capabilities but from what I see have read about they basically can provide the exact same thing. It appears that you only know what you have heard or read about ml3. That being said, you keep going on about how much more cqc can do over ml with out knowing if it can or cant. This in my mind mis -informs people who are looking to make a choice on what to buy.


Anyhow, I still dont get why you need all of the security for your automation software. If it runs on windows and is connected to the internet it is vonerable not matter what.


I dont see how ml forces you to make decisions based on the harware it supports. If it does not support something you can either use homeseer or use the rs232 plugin, or write your own plugin.


"After all, can MainLobby really do anything that Girder and NetRemote cannot?"

How is cqc any different?


"With CQC, you have an entire approach that's meant to be scaleable, flexible, and highly configurable"

I would say mainlobby offers the same.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Anyhow, I still dont get why you need all of the security for your automation software. If it runs on windows and is connected to the internet it is vonerable not matter what.



Why do I need a security system, then? Heck, don't even bother locking the doors. As long as I live in public and the cops take forever in Oakland to get to my house, I'm vulnerable.



> Quote:
> I am sure we can go round and round here all day! but... I dont use cqc or know all of its capabilities but from what I see have read about they basically can provide the exact same thing. It appears that you only know what you have heard or read about ml3. That being said, you keep going on about how much more cqc can do over ml with out knowing if it can or cant. This in my mind mis -informs people who are looking to make a choice on what to buy.



Point taken, quite true. If there's a user out there who actually uses MainLobby as their primary Home Automation engine (and i don't mean as just a front-end for homeseer), then they should correct my mistakes with cold hard facts about how their system works. I don't really care about marketing glossies off the website about the potential of their "event/automation engine", I just care about what's actually being done by folks.

This poll over at cocoontech showed that when asked what they use for their primary HA engine, 2 out of 137 people who replied used MainLobby, one of which was Mario, the other was DavidL(smoothlk). I'm not sure if there's anyone out there actually using ML as the Home Automation engine that you describe.


Until there's someone out there who can stand up and say "yes, I use ML as my primary HA engine. Here's what I've done, here's how i've done it, here's the difficulties i've had, here's what i'm doing to work around it", then the new user (ie, cavalier) is forced to make a decision based on what all of us read and hear.


----------



## smoothtlk

IVB,

MLServer 3 is used as a full automation controller by the majority (large) of MainLobby users. No Homeseer, no HAL, no anything else. It's not marketing hype. Download and try it. That simple.

Very few MainLobby customers "hang out" at cocoontech. Heck, go to EHX or CEDIA and ask how many dealers even know what Cocoontech is, and I would be suprised if in a day of asking the same question, how many would even know what you are talking about.


----------



## cavalier240




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Point taken, quite true. If there's a user out there who actually uses MainLobby as their primary Home Automation engine (and i don't mean as just a front-end for homeseer), then they should correct my mistakes with cold hard facts about how their system works. I don't really care about marketing glossies off the website about the potential of their "event/automation engine", I just care about what's actually being done by folks.
> 
> This poll over at cocoontech showed that when asked what they use for their primary HA engine, 2 out of 137 people who replied used MainLobby, one of which was Mario, the other was DavidL(smoothlk). I'm not sure if there's anyone out there actually using ML as the Home Automation engine that you describe.
> 
> 
> Until there's someone out there who can stand up and say "yes, I use ML as my primary HA engine. Here's what I've done, here's how i've done it, here's the difficulties i've had, here's what i'm doing to work around it", then the new user (ie, cavalier) is forced to make a decision based on what all of us read and hear.



This would be invaluable. As a potential user, I would like to see the following:

1) The software package you are using as the primary HA engine

2) Screenshots (links would be best if possible to ease the reading of the thread)

3) Any additional software/plugins/3rd party systems/graphics/etc that you had to buy/incorporate in order to achieve specific functions

4) Any drivers/plugins that you wrote yourself

5) Ballpark $$ spent to achieve your HA (if you don't mind sharing)


I think this will really give potential buyers both ideas of what can be achieved, but also what it will take to achieve said systems.


----------



## cavalier240

As a followup, it should be known that I have scoured several other forums including the CQC and ML forums and have come across several pages of screenshots, which alone are not that helpful, so please don't just post links to galleries. It is the accompanying explantaions which add value. I only gain value if someone says "this is my interface which I use to do this.... In order to achieve this, I had to buy/write x,y, and z plugins, and integrate it with these X pieces of hardware. I also had to buy x,y, and z programs and graphics packs to achieve this GUI."


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> IVB,
> 
> MLServer 3 is used as a full automation controller by the majority (large) of MainLobby users. No Homeseer, no HAL, no anything else. It's not marketing hype. Download and try it. That simple.
> 
> Very few MainLobby customers "hang out" at cocoontech. Heck, go to EHX or CEDIA and ask how many dealers even know what Cocoontech is, and I would be suprised if in a day of asking the same question, how many would even know what you are talking about.



That's asking quite a lot of DIYer's. We're on the bleeding edge with enough of our lives. I might be spoiled by the average 120 posts/day on the CQC forums (or new CQC chat room!) asking questions, posting suggestions, etc, but it sounds you want us to take a gamble when there's no one around where we "hang out". If there's no one around at Cocoontech, the biggest DIY HA forum around, only 2-3 people here who have smaller-size installs, then why would we bother taking a chance on something if there's another alternative that's well proven, better hardware support, more secure, the same price (if not cheaper), and has an architecture that no one has been able to find a weakness with yet, all with a ton of folks around to help us where we prefer to spend our time?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavalier240* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This would be invaluable. As a potential user, I would like to see the following:
> 
> 1) The software package you are using as the primary HA engine
> 
> 2) Screenshots (links would be best if possible to ease the reading of the thread)
> 
> 3) Any additional software/plugins/3rd party systems/graphics/etc that you had to buy/incorporate in order to achieve specific functions
> 
> 4) Any drivers/plugins that you wrote yourself
> 
> 5) Ballpark $$ spent to achieve your HA (if you don't mind sharing)
> 
> 
> I think this will really give potential buyers both ideas of what can be achieved, but also what it will take to achieve said systems.



I could not agree more. I've always given a full disclosure of everything, indeed blogging my progress both on the blog in my sig, and also on my "IVB's HA Progress" thread both here at avs and at the CQC Forums. The AVS one is only 4 pages long, but the CQC one is 34 pages long.


There's nothing illusory here. I walk you through a horrific amount of detail as to how i've evolved my system over time.


I have a complete scorecard as to how I did what I did, comprehensive parts list with $$ amount here in this grid .


----------



## LathanM

I am using ML as my only solution. My system consist of 5 777ES changers, 2 projectors, 4 TVs, 1 motorized screen, 2 100CD changers, Insteon and x10 lighting. Toshiba and USB cameras, 2 surround audio zones (1 5.1 & 1 7.1), 3 music only zones, Sirius tuner control, 3 DirecTv receivers. The video sources are linked through a 3 of Videostorm matrix switchers (years of upgrades and cheaper than starting over with 1 large switch) and a couple of output multipliers. The controls on the devices are a mix of serial and IR control. The client side is handled by touch screens served from Citrix.


As for issues I haven't had any major ones. I had a couple of CallerID issues but they were related to the modem that has been replaced with a NetCallerID. Even then it may be going away if I can find a way to get the SMDR data from my pbx into the system without too much trouble. Getting reliable serial information from my projectors. Just because it says you receive a 0x1 when a command is accepted and 0xF when rejected doesn't help when you occasionally see a 0x4 or 0x9. IR issues were limited to mechanical problems,forgetting to tighten screws all the way down or putting a staple through the wire, and IR learning issues and my own custom IR zone controller relying on my less than perfect wire wrapping skills. Stupid Sirius remote and its combo/double duty buttons. A minor issue with the horoscope plugin that was quickly resolved by Cinemar.


On the development side I have had issue with there being no autosave function in the client and the system defaulting to full paths for button links instead of web page style or unc references. To get around this I run a text search and replace to strip out the unnecessary parts. Alignment of objects can be troublesome but primarily with custom objects. To get around this I have been prebuilding composite objects for things like d-pads and keypads. I also stripped some of the extra motion elements out of my scene transitions since they got old after a few days and slowed things down somewhat. The new licensing setup for hardware has made it harder to develop scenes when I am on the road but thanks to VMware and 120gb laptop drives have eliminated that problem.


Most of the expansion I have planned for my system is finding a way to fully integrate my pbx into the system. TeleVantage ships with a full sdk but ML doesn't support TAPI so I may have to get creative. Possibly adding a Elk but it won't be for awhile. Expanded temperature control is also in the future but it too is no real rush. Maybe replacing my IR controller since ML now offers a 5 zone unit.


Things I won't be adding weather reports, really I am in Chicago do you really want to know the weather, whole house audio, had it an never used it. I am a movie guy and most of my music is still on vinyl and reel to reel tapes. PDA control, unless Apple brings back the Newton it isn't likely, small screens suck. Sprinkler control, first I don't have a lawn and second I hate yard work


I don't think I am alone in my choices. Most of the people that I have spoken with that have HA systems by Crestron or AMX systems are pretty much doing the same things I am. They don't do their own yard work so they don't worry about irrigation. Security cameras are big but more from a static camera point of view. A couple didn't even understand that they had PTZ cameras until they accidentally changed views on the camera.


----------



## thartigh

Oakland? oak-land-cal-i-forn-ia (from rapper too short)

I am seriously asking why the security. Not home security you need that there. Like I said, since its windows, it IS vonerable. As long as you have great protection for the whole pc you should not need it for the HA software. Aslo what is someone gonna do steal your scene layouts or know what light you have on. Your UI should not allow users to access things anyway. You should have a password protected with a hidden button for a admin screen.

I just dont get it!



I dont use homeseer, I have been able to control everything I need without it. To me I want as little software running as possible. I still wish we could ditch j rivers but it would be hard for a HA company to match the development that goes into it.


Here is my system. I started with just wanting a way to control my movies and music. All movies and music are harddrive based. I had several client pc's, one in each room. After a while I wanted the weather and the cdripping engine. Then I added weblobby. I then started using the usbuirt to control the receiver and a ir x10 controller for lighting. Most everything Logic wise I was able to do through mlserver. Some things required workarounds since pre-mlserver3 did not have logic based rules for variables. Work around meaning use commands and plugins to create the logic. It worked well but some things were a pain. I then swapped the ir x-10 for the smarthome stuff (pre-insteon) and used the generic serial to control it.


Everything worked well but it could use much improvement and ML# took care of that. It fixed almost all little things that required workarounds and added alot of capability. The biggest thing being the automation rules. If anyone knows ladder logic this is as cole as it gets. Example: If variable light001=on then run this command, if its not run a different command. A varaible is a line of text in mlserver. Almost all plugins create variables to hold their data, and can include image paths or anything you want. The variable has a name and a value. That value can simply be displayed as text or a picture, be used for an automation rule or be used to temoroarly hold information during a command.


When I switched to ml3 I added the insteon controller mainly because I could still use all of my x10 stuff while I migrated to insteon. Once all that was working I added the w800 plugin. My security system is 100% using ds10a switches and eagle eye motion sensors. Including mail notification via a ds10a. (using the modified antenna with the w800rf) During all of this I started playing with the serial thermostat and have that working through mlserver.


My biggest thing with ML# was what to do? Do I spend all the money for extra license or to make the sytem more reliable and easier to maintain? or do I switch to cqc which allows for this without extra money.


In the end I opted to stick with ML, mainly because service has always been top notch. Second thing was I wanted to ditch some of the pc's anyway. It was getting to be a pain making sure that 8 pc's are up to date with windows and all lobby products. To me trying to use every pc to play movies, music, and run mainlobby was a great idea but unless you use fast pc's it does not work well. So I decided to have to pc's strickly for movie playback and gaming on each. I dont have kids so it is very rare that we ever need more than two sources music playing. I no longer use the usbuirt and switched everything to serial control for reliability and two way status.


I will soon be adding the rain8 controller for irrigation this spring. I just installed a hot tub so a Jandy controller is in my future. That will require serial control since there is no driver.


Ever since ml3 I have never had my system just go down because the software failed. It has gone down because the power went out, but usually starts backup on its own. Once I had it hang on the boot screen which stopped everything. Agai this was a pc failure not software failure.


I attribute most of my reliabilty to a simple setup (that does most everything) with minimal pc's/software and serial/driver/plugin control for everything.


Hope that helps!


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There's also zero chance i'll schlep around to each machine to copy files locally every time I change an interfce, because that's a monstrous waste of time. You gain security and performance with CQC, but you give up the luxury of building interfaces offline and on an airplane.



Am I reading that correctly IVB? Surely you can *design* as many interfaces as you want offline?


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Am I reading that correctly IVB? Surely you can *design* as many interfaces as you want offline?



My definition of the word "design" means to actually create an interface, build up the widgets, do the coding, etc. By that definition, no, you cannot design interfaces while offline. You cannot use the Interface Editor when you're not on the network. There are some folks who've figured out some network port forwarding/VPN thingey for when they're on the 'net, but that doesn't help you when you're on an airplane.


There's workarounds, such as installing a 2nd master server on your laptop and exporting my main templates and importing onto the laptop. When I return, I do the opposite. When I did my Hawaii trip last year, that's what I ended up doing. It's a little bit of work, so not to be taken lightly. This year, I may look into that port forwarding,


It's the price to pay for a true network-distributed architecture.


----------



## QQQ

Let's phrase the question a different way to make sure we are on the same page. I could care less if I have to be running the server on a laptop. What I want to know is - let's assume I have 10 different customers that I want to implment CQC for. Can I design the interfaces and do the coding for each Client from a laptop on an airplane? i.e. a standalone laptop.


----------



## IVB

I'll speak technically and not care about licensing, as I presume CIs have that covered elsewhere in their CQC Authorized integrator agreement.


Yes, you can design an interface on a server running on your laptop, export it, go to your client site, import it, and be in business.


There's a few things you need to be cognizant of (ie, driver names/template names/etc), but it's the same basic theory that I do given that I share all my templates with folks. Really not that big a deal at all.


----------



## Dean Roddey

I don't think that the question is really 'what could possibly be accomplished' given either product and an infinite number of monkeys, or however that scenario goes. It's more an issue of architecture, having a broad and deep foundation, and long legs.


It's already been discussed, I think it was on this thread, how architecturally sophisticated CQC is. And the difference shows if you take the time to use it. We have many times over more proprietary (read: we control the quality) software technology than any other software based automation product, and the result is a highly integrated system wherever everything was designed from the ground up to work together.


We now require very little in the way of external software. We are down basically to things like ZoomPlayer and TheaterTek for folks who want software renderers. But mostly everything is there, fully integrated into the product, from object oriented macro langauge, compiler and debugger and runtime libraries, to fully networked infrastructure, CD ripping and media management, graphical interface design tools, web server, driver development and macro develoment tools, and so on.


It's the difference between a patchwork of tools, and a built to purpose toolkit. They can both be made to work, but most people would like to own the purpose built toolkit. It's a matter of superior sophistication and technology that allows for greater flexibility, more control over quality, and tighter integration of the tools. And when there are problems, we can fix them quickly and completely, which is an enormous advantage we have over other products that depend on various third party technologies.


I'll just give an example... We have our own web server. Our own OO macro language is built into the web server, so you can write dynamic page generation code using our OO language and IDE. So you can just open up the IDE, write a handler, press save, and there it is available to the web browser. It doesn't require setting up any shared drives or copying any files around. You can also fully test it out in the IDE before you even deploy it since the IDE can emulate the web server environment.


You can also embed images in your web pages directly out of our image repository, so that you can use the same images in your CQC interfaces and your web pages. And there's no hacking or setting up third party tools to do it, it's all built in out of the box.


Another example is that since we have our own OO language and IDE, you can develop drivers completely within the IDE, because it can emulate the same environment that the drivers run in inside CQC. So without any changes or conditional code or anything of that nature, you can develop, debug, and deploya, a very complex device driver, without using a single external tool, all from any client in the system. In other systems, you'd have to use some third party language, like VB or .Net or something, with third party tools, and then copy files around and so forth. Yeh it works, but it's not in the same league in terms of sophistication.


Another example... You wife yells that there's some problem, you don't have to get up and go look. You can read through the logs and check the status of the CQC system from any machine. All CQC programs log to a centralized server, and you can watch the logs in real time or spelunk and see what's been logged after the fact. And of course customers commonly send us log dumps which helps us quickly tune in on the problem and help them out. That's possible because we have a distributed object infrastructure and ORB and standardized pluggable ORB interfaces for logging.


Another example... I'm sitting here right now ripping CDs in my bedroom using our repository manager. So I can do all the metadata retrieval and rip and it uploads the data to the repository where it's immediately available. There's no need for J.River or exporting XML and so forth. That requires that we have our own backend repository architecture and all of the distributed interfaces to manage it remotely. And, those interfaces are exposed via our OO language runtime, so that you can access the repository easily in macros or drivers.


And another example... Since we have our own user interface designer, which is fully integrated into our system, our user interfaces in 2.0 have become pretty sophisticated. It's really an object oriented system, not just in that you plop something on the screen and then configure it, but in that the widgets can talk to each other. So you can have one widget changes another widget's color or what image it displays or what text it displays.


And since it's built right in, if you want to reference this or that piece of system information, it's available for selection right there inside the interface design tool. I'm not sure how, for instance, in ML if you have some button or something and you want it to generate a command, how you enter that command. But in CQC, you have all of the CQC specific fields and IR commands and various replacement tokens and such available via popups and menus. It's a huge help in generating user interface based logic. Since ML uses the flash editor, I assume you have to type in those types of commands manually and manually look up references to the things you want to control?


And because of this architecture, things like the cover art browser doesn't have browsing buttons built in, you can put the buttons where you like and just select the browser as the target and send it commands to show text or image or select movies or music or scroll back and forth and so on. So this allows you to have whatever look and layout you want, without having to be limited by to a skinning type system of fixed functions and commands. You can really create quite sophisticated interfaces in a completely point and click sort of way, in which the logic implemented isn't just for controllng the devices but also for controlling the interface itself. But it's done through teh example same interface that you configure the logic for controlling devices. YOu don't have to do flashy stuff in this interface to set up the widget interactions and then go to this other thing to type in devcie control logic. It's all fully integrated.


And of course since it's all fully networked, all of the images, macros, and other templates you need to reference as you design are there available from any machine without any file sharing or anything like that.


And another example... Since we have our own user interface viewer tool, as apposed to a flash viewer, we can provide a dedicated external control interface for the interface viewer itself. So you can load the interface viewer driver and drive the interface via IR remote or via an interface on another machine (such as popping up the interface on the projector to select movies but controlling it via a tablet from the couch.) You can hide or show the IV, move around, invoke things, blank the screen and so forth via the control interface. Here again, it's tight integration of our own tools that allows this.


Anyway, CQC is not for everyone obviously, since it's really a professional system in the end. But for those folks who prefer to use the big iron, it's really what they are looking for.


N.B. CQC does have popup/slideout stuff. They aren't just menus, they are just small regular user interfaces that can have any thing on them. They just slide out and slide back in (and can optionally play a WAV on the way in and out.)


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Let's phrase the question a different way to make sure we are on the same page. I could care less if I have to be running the server on a laptop. What I want to know is - let's assume I have 10 different customers that I want to implment CQC for. Can I design the interfaces and do the coding for each Client from a laptop on an airplane? i.e. a standalone laptop.



I don't think any system will allow you to fully design an interface offline, since so much of it is involved in interacting with the actual devices under control and you cannot do that unless you are connected to the actual system. But you can work on visual layout and getting together the images you want and so forth. And of course you write the logic that you think you'll need, but you can't test that until you can actually run it again the actual system.


Our IPs generally just do a remote desktop into the client system, which gives them full control over the client's PC, not just access via CQC. And it insures that they don't have to deal with versioning issues between their systems and what is on the client's system.


But of course you can also VPN into a system, in which case you would just be running as a CQC client of the customer's CQC system. That's something probably better for the customer himself to use on the road I guess, where he has a broadband connection, when he just wants to check the status of the home and so forth.


For non-broadband you can use the web server for remote access.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't think any system will allow you to fully design an interface offline, since so much of it is involved in interacting with the actual devices under control and you cannot do that unless you are connected to the actual system.



I'm not sure why you say that. We design our panels "off line" all of the time. Why would I need to be connected to a system to design the GUI? Using a DVD player as an example, I know what commands I want to use and it remains constant regardless of what DVD player I might use. THEN I write the code, which I can also do offline. And THEN I load the code on the system and test it and debug it and make adjustments as needed. And it's imperative that we be able to do it that way because someone might be writing code from their home or a hotel room. Otherwise it would be totally impractical.


----------



## Dean Roddey

I guess I just was considering that 'creating an interface' would include the debugging and making it work part, not just the roughing it in part. But yeh, you can do what you think is right offline and then debug when you get there.


But, just for argument's sake, I can pretty much guarantee you you wouldn't have written my theater's automation logic offline. My devices have a number of quirks and the 'obvious' logic to control them would pretty much go down in flames.


If you are talking about mostly IR stuff, which is send and pray anyway, or not really taking into account a lot of two way feedback, it's easier to do something offline and be fairly sure it'll be ok when you actually test it. But if you are going to do slick, high level functionality that coordinates a lot of devices and has to wait for things to happen and time things and so forth, it's pretty easy to do what you think is obvious only to find out that you have to really restructure it when you throw it at the ugly reality of some systems.


The other thing, in CQC anyway, is that when the actual devices are installed, you have a lot of helper popups and whatnot which will go get information from the devices and present it popups and pick list menus. Some types of devices don't know what the situation is until they are connected, because the device under control has a variable number of these or those, so you lose out on some helping hands in those cases. Obvious examples would be the most important devices like lighting systems and automation panels, which are highly configurable and the driver cannot know what to present to you because he has not information from the device.


Anyway, I'm not trying to make a stand about it. You can of course fully 'create' an interface offline. You just can't actually press the buttons and make things happen until you are connected, and therefore the best of plans can go awry, and you can lose out on some conveniences if you aren't connected.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But, just for argument's sake, I can pretty much guarantee you you wouldn't have written my theater's automation logic offline. My devices have a number of quirks and the 'obvious' logic to control them would pretty much go down in flames.



We use equipment that we have experience with and use our own modules or ones that have been written that we know work. We don't reinvent the wheel every time. If we are using a piece of equipment for the first time, we are going to test it first. So we can write a program and know that most of it will work, subject to debugging. And in our case the majority of debugging is going to be done at our offices anyhow, when we stage and test the system.


But it's not uncommon that a programmer do some work from home and the UI is usually developed first before any programming is done, hence my question.


Anyhow, it sounds like CQC has no issues with this scenario.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Anyhow, it sounds like CQC has no issues with this scenario.



It works fine. That's what I did last year in Hawaii, when the kids were taking their naps/sleeping. I had some screens with a ton of widgets (ie, direct Xantech control page probably has 50-100 buttons), so I intentionally waited until then to do all the donkey work. It was simple but mind numbingly boring, hence the delay until I was in a hotel room with nothing to do.


----------



## stwd

cavalier240,


I'm sure you knew that your question would have started quite a debate. I'm happy to see that at least this one did not get too far out of control. In the end, this is a personal decision, just like should I buy a Ford or a Chevy. Only YOU know the answer based on your research and test drive.


You are doing the right thing by testing both products for yourself. All of us learn and work differently. What is easy for some is hard for others. Both of these products are very good and there are passionate and talented developers behind both companies. Their approaches are somewhat different as you can see. Some people are very vocal and will be heard loader than others. My main point I wanted to make was just that you keep this personal - try both packages and I'm sure you will find out what works best for you. Take in all of this input and passion from people but don't let it influence what you experience for yourself. At the end of the day, it is your money, your time and your experience, so you just need to choose what feels right.


That said, I want to just make a few comments. I actually hold licenses to both ML and CQC. I have tried or used both packages. Many comments were made about ML being more prepackaged but having the ability to customize as much as you want while CQC is more a build it from scratch tool and invariably more difficult. From my experience (me personally, you need to form your own opinion) CQC just made much more sense to me. Even without a prebuilt 'starter' interface, I was able to build a solid functional interface faster than just customizing an ML one. To me it just made more sense. I struggled in ML to figure out just how to turn a light on or off. Everything in ML is a button and to issue command I either needed to memorize the command or constantly have a manual open to look up and then type in commands. No matter what I wanted to do, it was just a 'button' with a different image and different commands. In CQC, there are a multitude of 'widgets', each with a specific purpose. If I want a push button, I use a command button. If I want a label, I use a static text widget, etc. It was very easy for me to simply place widgets on the screen, choose an associated graphic and use menus and dropdowns to configure behavior. And this has even been made easier in 2.0. ML has had some tremendous improvements, but mainly to the server. That is a nice solid piece. But the designer is still somewhat difficult to use. I'm sure others would disagree and say they think ML is easy to use and makes alot of sense to them. That's why its personal and only you can decide for yourself.


I could go on and on with opinion about price, support, etc. but I just want you to use your own judgment. For me it was easy, CQC just 'fit' the way my mind works. For others it will be different. Just try them both and choose the one you or comfortable with. Like a good car, you will drive it for a long time.


But please also don't fool yourself, like a nice car, you will do upgrades, whether its new tires and wheels, better spark plugs, window tint, etc, you needs and wants will change - it is natural and human. So too will your HA/AVS system as technology changes and your wants change. So also do pick a system you know will grow better with you. For me, I'd rather know that new wheels, tint, wiper blades, etc are included for a small fee than being killed when I want the new stuff which I know I invariably will. Like a BWM, all basic service is included, you don't need to worry about it, other cars you pay for each service.


Only you can decide what fits you best. good luck with your decision.


----------



## smoothtlk

"If there's no one around at Cocoontech, the biggest DIY HA forum around, only 2-3 people here who have smaller-size installs, then why would we bother taking a chance on something if there's another alternative that's well proven, better hardware support, more secure, the same price (if not cheaper), "


IVB, MainLobby customers "hang around" MainLobby's forum for support. (and call on the telephone). They don't need to rely on a 3rd party website for answers. They are free to go to Cocoontech for any 3rd party info they want too. So, I don't understand your comment.


Don't get me wrong, I too like cocoontech. It's just this PC automation stuff is still relatively new for the dealers / integrators that are the heart of the automation / media control business. Most don't take it serious yet. This tide is changing fast. MediaCenter OS has probably done the most to affect this.


----------



## Les Auber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavalier240* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As a followup, it should be known that I have scoured several other forums including the CQC and ML forums and have come across several pages of screenshots, which alone are not that helpful, so please don't just post links to galleries. It is the accompanying explantaions which add value. I only gain value if someone says "this is my interface which I use to do this.... In order to achieve this, I had to buy/write x,y, and z plugins, and integrate it with these X pieces of hardware. I also had to buy x,y, and z programs and graphics packs to achieve this GUI."



Did you find the gallery page on the main CQC website in your scouring? Don't think it covers everything you're asking but is does parts of it. More then just screen shots it covers hardware and layout.


----------



## cavalier240




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Les Auber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Did you find the gallery page on the main CQC website in your scouring? Don't think it covers everything you're asking but is does parts of it. More then just screen shots it covers hardware and layout.



Sure did. Thanks. I posted this here to hopefully get a collection of systems using the various HA systems for easier comparison.


----------



## cavalier240

I have found several images made available by users such as Ripper, which I am trying to figure out how to import into CQC. Thus, how do you import files ending in .cqctmpack ?


----------



## IVB

Through the Admin Interface, under Administer.Import Package.


However, they need to get redone for V2.0. Those are written for V1.6, so if you are playing with the V2.0 beta they won't work. If you tell me which ones you have, I may have his PNG files. I can email them to you and walk you through how to manually import them. Warning: You don't want to do this for more than a handful of images, it's a bit of a pain.


I'll also harass Dean now to convert those over.


----------



## cavalier240




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Through the Admin Interface, under Administer.Import Package.
> 
> 
> However, they need to get redone for V2.0. Those are written for V1.6, so if you are playing with the V2.0 beta they won't work. If you tell me which ones you have, I may have his PNG files. I can email them to you and walk you through how to manually import them. Warning: You don't want to do this for more than a handful of images, it's a bit of a pain.
> 
> 
> I'll also harass Dean now to convert those over.



Gotcha. I have his png files, but the main pages appear to be constructed of multiple different parts which would be a pain to import in pieces.


What is the typical progression of steps when creating an interface? Do most people create the entire thing on a blank slate within the interface editor? I was thinking about using photoshop to create a background with menu locations and section dividers and then just locating widgets in their spots over the background. Which is easier I guess? I ultimately want to have a series of screens with several common elements/menus along the borders, and have the center be function specific.


----------



## robertmee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavalier240* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Gotcha. I have his png files, but the main pages appear to be constructed of multiple different parts which would be a pain to import in pieces.
> 
> 
> What is the typical progression of steps when creating an interface? Do most people create the entire thing on a blank slate within the interface editor? I was thinking about using photoshop to create a background with menu locations and section dividers and then just locating widgets in their spots over the background. Which is easier I guess? I ultimately want to have a series of screens with several common elements/menus along the borders, and have the center be function specific.



There are many examples of this....Johnnynine, ellisr, ripper, et al. Simply create a static or dynamic if you prefer menu bar on the left right top and/or bottom, and use overlays in the center to load different info based on the menu button selected. Some use a static header/footer which shows the same info and a static left menu bar for global areas (like TV, Music, Weather, etc.). Then they use a dynamic right menu bar that changes based on the left menu bar selection (for example, selecting TV on the left brings up Mute, Play, Channel, etc. on the right).


Here's one with static left/right, dynamic bottom:

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=2934 


Static left, dynamic right, static top:

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=2473 


Static left, dynamic right, top/bottom header/footer with additional menu buttons mid-bottom:

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=2759 


Static left and top:

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=2868


----------



## IVB

It's all over the map. The very graphically inclined like ripper do what you say, then just have invisible command buttons (or maybe just with text) above those locations. Others, like me, aren't that good at creating interfaces, so I just have a basic background, with button images in the widget.



> Quote:
> I ultimately want to have a series of screens with several common elements/menus along the borders, and have the center be function specific.



Keep in mind that there's the concept of an "overlay" widget, which means that you create one larger template for your full screen size with an overlay widget with the size of any sub-templates you want to load.

Then, you create a 2nd template that's the same size as the overlay widget, and you load that into the overlay.


This means that you only create that outer template with all the common elements once, and simply swap out internal center screens. It's very fast & efficient, not sure if this is how the other packages work, but it's definitely one of the big strengths of CQC.


Much easier to explain on the concall, but here's some pics.












here's an example of a template that i'd load into that overlay. It's just a regular template, but sized to fit into that widget size.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> What is the typical progression of steps when creating an interface? Do most people create the entire thing on a blank slate within the interface editor? I was thinking about using photoshop to create a background with menu locations and section dividers and then just locating widgets in their spots over the background. Which is easier I guess? I ultimately want to have a series of screens with several common elements/menus along the borders, and have the center be function specific.



People normally use a background image, though not always. If you look at mine now, they are on a white background since I'm going for a different sort of look. Don't draw the background buttons and LEDs and and such into the background. Those should be separate images and associated with the widgets you drop onto the background. This provides a lot more flexibility since you can just grab a widget and move it in the editor, not regnerate and re-import the backgorund again. And it lets you do things like pressed/unpress images and so forth.


The background image just provides the places to drop them into visually.


----------



## Dean Roddey

BTW, here are a couple videos that will demonstrate the CQC interface system. Just very lightly and it's more oriented towards doing a media repository setup than creating a really fancy interface since it's a media repository configuration tutorial. But you can see how the designer works and fully integrated it is into the product. I'm working on more and will be replacing our current written high level tutotrial with a video one for 2.0.

Part 1 

Part 2 


It also demonstrates the 'action editor' which how you make things happen anywhere that things need to be made to happen. In the examples here they are actions caused by clicking on things in a user interface, but the same applies for configuring a scheduled event, or training CQC to react to an IR command and so forth. I'm working on the action oriented parts of the new tutorial tonight, so I'll post those when I get them done.


----------



## IVB

Question for the MainLobby folks, so I can better understand that package.


How does it allow you to trade info between the 'front-end' and the 'back-end'? Specifically, I just learned about the CQC variables driver, which I just used to create an admin page where I can enable/disable event. It works in conjunction with the if-then logic I put into the event manager to only perform the action if it's "enabled" in that UI.


Here's what I mean:

I created 2 variables in the variable driver called active_hvac and active_irrigation - I can use that to transfer info from the IV to the event manager. This has enabled me to do the following screen.











Then, inside the "Start Sprinklers" action, I added an if-then statement around the whole thing testing for true or false.
Code:


Code:


If System::Equals($(sample-variables-driver.Act..., True) 
   Devices::FieldWrite(sample-rain8net.1_Zone_1, True) 
   Devices::FieldWrite(sample-rain8net.1_Zone_2, True) 
   Devices::FieldWrite(sample-rain8net.1_Zone_3, True) 
End


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> I created 2 variables in the variable driver called active_hvac and active_irrigation - I can use that to transfer info from the IV to the event manager. This has enabled me to do the following screen.



It would be more technically correct to say that you've created flags that can be seen by everyone, and are using them to control whether scheduled events are run or not. Since they can be seen by the user interfaces as well, you can set or clear them via your interfaces.


Basically, the Variables driver is just a driver that talks to nothing, but which you can define arbitrary fields for. So it's a pseudo device that you can make have any fields you want. They aren't associated with anything, they are just there for you to write to and read from as desired. They are used, as here, to provide system wide data values that everyone can see. You could use it to something like zone reservation or that kind of thing as well. In programming terms, you can think of them as network wide variables, hence the driver name.


----------



## LathanM

Setting a variable/flag works pretty much the same way in ML.


Variables in the system are global so they can be read by any other part of the system. So for something like status of device you would create a button in the scene with the variable you wanted. The button could do something simple locally like change color or more complex like limit what DVDs are available when you try to play them. The only difference is where the effect take place. Changing a buttons color or displaying the value of the variable it is handled in client. In the color change example you would adjust the buttons on and off state to be different colors.


For the DVD one, I have 5 changers (Hey I actually watch the extras) and 4 zones of playback. When you select a movie to play it sets a flag/variable in the system for the changer that is playing and starts a countdown for the movie length + 5 minutes + my preMovieManager time. When the next person goes to select a movie the system blocks them from playing any movie on a changer that is already active. The timer is an added safety incase the client disconnects from the server or someone forgets to turn something off.


The logic is added to the system as an automation rule. If you have ever used the Outlook rules wizard then the configuration will work about the same. You select the variable you want (DVDCHNUM), set the condition (equals) then run server macro CHANGERUSE{{DVDCHNUM}}. I use a macro for mine because it is easier for me to debug but I could have it directly display the changer state to the other clients notifying them what movies are available.


The only major difference is the way the rules are written. Because of the wizard you don't directly enter any information, it is all done from pull down menus. The advantage to this is no typos. Nothing like fat fingering a variable then scratching you head for 10 minutes trying to figure out that you were one you typed DVd when it should be DVD. The disadvantage is a slightly slower input method. I kind of wish there was a direct input way of doing it but my typing is bad enough as is







.


----------



## LathanM

Here is an example MainLobby rule:


Description:

Turns Light#5 on when the Elk Zone 16 is Violated


Usage:

When opening a Garage or Door, automatically turn specified light on if it is dark outside.


Rule:

Whenever mlelkm1_zone_016_statusmsg changes value

- And mlelkm1_zone_16_statusmsg equals Violated - Open

- And currenthmmil is nighttime

--- Then MLServeCmd.MLLighting|On~005


----------



## Dean Roddey

Here's another little How To video that demonstrates some of the programmability of the user interface system. The user interfaces created here are very simple since it's just to demonstrate a particular thing and making it fancy looking would distract from what it's trying to teach.


This one demonstrates how to password protect some of your user interfaces. We could have provided some built in scheme and popuped up a generic dialog box to get login info. But, because our user interface system is so easy to program, it's nicer to just allow you to create your own, so that it can have the same look and feel of the rest of your templates.


The video is here.


----------



## Dean Roddey

Actually, here is just the list of videos done so far. The coverage is very spotty yet since only 7 are done yet.


*Tutorial Stuff*


These you would want to do in order.

Installation 

Loading Drivers 

Actions Part 1 

Triggered Events 


*How To Stuff*


These are more 'spot tutorials' that don't have any particular order, though some will refer to things learned in others.

Media Repository Part 1 

Media Repository Part 2 

Password Protecting Interfaces


----------



## cavalier240

Thanks Dean - I've been pretty busy with the holiday, but I will be sure to view those videos soon!


On a separate note, I was hoping to see more responses to my request made several posts ago to hear about the various user setups including:

1) The software package you are using as the primary HA engine

2) Screenshots (links would be best if possible to ease the reading of the thread)

3) Any additional software/plugins/3rd party systems/graphics/etc that you had to buy/incorporate in order to achieve specific functions

4) Any drivers/plugins that you wrote yourself

5) Ballpark $$ spent to achieve your HA (if you don't mind sharing)


----------



## IVB

FYI - The user systems forum over on CQC has a variety of threads like this. That's what inspired me to even build out my "scorecard" with the bulleted item & cost breakdown for my setup (which I promptly regretted consolidating).

Here's one that talks about various equipment costs .


----------



## mcascio




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavalier240* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First of all - thank you all for your timely and informative comments.
> 
> 
> My major struggle is with initial investment vs ROI. Assuming I would only need one client machine, that would make the initial cost of MainLobby ~ $285. I would then have to buy any future drivers as I update equipment (which I may not do - I am more inclined to leave it alone once I get it running).
> 
> 
> I understand that CQC is a more "feature rich" package; however, I am not sure that I will benefit from that. With CQC, in order to be eligible for future drivers, it seems as though I would be locked into the $95/year, which bothers me since I am not sure if I would ever take advantage of that. Dean, do you have any future plans for allowing for al a carte purchases of just the drivers and upgrades that are needed?
> 
> 
> It seems to me that the best first step would be to trial each package to see which one I like and fits my needs best. Dean - how long until the special runs up (i.e. any idea when 2.0 will be released?)



Just to be clear, you only need to purchase MainLobby/MLServer 3 once for your setup. That gives you 5 clients running MainLobby in the home. You do not need to purchase MainLobby for each PC.


MainLobby is not "aimed squarely at the consumer". We had dealers/distributors long before CQC. We have more and more drivers being released weekly that are geared towards the prosumer market. I'd certainly consider our Elk/HAI plugins in this category. Along with Russound and Nuvo. UPB/ZWave/Vantage/etc.


The fact that MainLobby gives you an out-of-the-box solution does not mean it's consumer. It just means its designed to get you up and running faster. If you don't like where we put the button to control volume, move it, remove it, scale it, tint it or do whatever.


We've had almost 40 point releases to MainLobby alone since Version 3.00's release. MLServer 3.00 has had about 142 point releases. All at no charge. Contrary to what's been stated here you would not be charged for a 3.1 upgrade. Our policy has always been we have the "option" to charge at .5 and full point releases. We've waived that option on countless occasions. Including the massive updates recently to DVDLobby Pro 3.5+.


As far as upgrades, yes - MusicLobby and WeatherLobby have been updated with lots more functionality at a cost of $19.99 each. That's piddly winks over the 3 years. I don't foresee any new updates to WeatherLobby 3 - aside from more bonus graphics that will include free along the way.


No yearly maintenance fees - or locking you in. You decide if you want to upgrade.


Cinemar has recently released our own line of hardware which includes the USBIR6. Takes up a slot in your Server machine for that clean professional look:
http://www.cinemaronline.com/hardware.irsolutions.html


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcascio* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> We've had almost 40 point releases to MainLobby alone since Version 3.00's release. MLServer 3.00 has had about 142 point releases. All at no charge.



yes, with such massive improvements as the following excerpt from this page. 



> Quote:
> November 28, 2006 - Version 3.0.149
> 
> Fixes URLEncoding issues with server variables sent to clients.
> 
> Adds two new plugins MLDirTools and MLStrings. These are dll versions of Brandon's wsc plugins by similar names.
> 
> 
> November 11, 2006 - Version 3.0.142
> 
> Fixes several gramatical errors in dialog boxes.
> 
> Updates web links to proper locations.
> 
> Adds latest version of MLCallerID to distribution
> 
> 
> September 28, 2006 - Version 3.0.97
> 
> Fixes one issue that was preventing people from entering activation codes.
> 
> 
> _________________________________
> 
> September 27, 2006 - Version 3.0.96
> 
> Fixes registration bug introduced in 3.093.
> 
> Renamed WatchDog.exe to MLWatchDog.exe to avoid a conflict with another Watchdog program from Girder.
> 
> Adds event logging to certain web server events
> 
> Fixes multiple-client connect issues
> 
> 
> _________________________________
> 
> September 11, 2006 - Version 3.0.84
> 
> Fixes a CPU resource issue introduced in 3.0.83



I'm not anti-Cinemar or any other company, but I need to call B.S. when I see it. This type of "gaming" is exactly what leaves a bad taste in my mouth about how companies conduct themselves nowadays.


But I suppose it is a good thing you didn't charge folks to upgrade those grammatical errors and weblinks, or to fix the bug you introduced in a prior release...


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcascio* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> We've waived that option on countless occasions. Including the massive updates recently to DVDLobby Pro 3.5+.



I bought Mainlobby and virtually everything else they sell in June 2005 and used it until about February 2006 when I decided to finally leave..I guess one could say I was *unlucky* to be one of those who did not see one single update to the core Mainlobby product during that time.


Months after I stopped using the product Mainlobby 3 was released after being talked about for years and I guess you could say it was your right to charge everybody for a major upgrade however I feel rather cheated for the 8 months I did you use and made many complaints and suggestions and not one was implemented...I never even downloaded and added one upgrade to the core product because one was never released 


I'm sure David will be along soon to say "You got what you paid for..you got a full 8 months use" or something ridiculous and forget the bugs mentioned all last year and not one update to the core product was ever released...about all I can say in closing is I'm happy to now be using a product with consistent updates and might I add QUALITY updates...no fluff no filler and most of all I don't have to always hear "Coming Soon" and feel like that means next year sometime in Cinelingo


I'm also not anti-cinemar but if the past experience I had with them is any indication of future support to customers I know to avoid them.


----------



## mcascio

I'd hate to see posts from "anti-Cinemar" people.


And some minor updates to MainLobby which include the following (which address one of Rippers concerns about not being able to add Up, Down and over graphics of their own). But this is just fluff I suppose.









Seacrest...out.


======================================

Release Notes for 11/29/06 - Version 3.00.45

======================================

Added

Support for Flash Based Buttons (Requires Creation of Frames with labels MLUP, MLDOWN, MLOVER within Flash)


Updated Library

Updated LibraryMainLobby.swf to enable new functionality above



======================================

Release Notes for 11/17/06 - Version 3.00.39

======================================

Added

MainLobby Menu Bar is now vertically draggable by grabbing light blue area surround buttons


Updated Scenes

0019_iport.mls

0019_nav_iport.mls


Added Scenes

0019_iport_jumpletter.mls



======================================

Release Notes for 11/13/06 - Version 3.00.38

======================================

BugFix

When using Z-Order, the Hide Button Property was not being moved with other properties


Added Graphics

logo_iport

0019_0526 (Element)

0019_0527 (Button)

0019_0528 (Element)

0019_0529 (Button/Element)

Text.Sizable (Allows user to define width and height of text box)

Usage: The label field requires three variables separated by the ~

Syntax: myVariable~width~height

Example: {{todaystemp}}~300~40


Added Scenes

0019_iport.mls

0019_nav_iport.mls



======================================

Release Notes for 10/29/06 - Version 3.00.37

======================================

BugFix

Fixed Web.NavigateURL~ http://www ... command that became a problem in Version 3.00.36



======================================

Release Notes for 10/28/06 - Version 3.00.36

======================================

BugFixes

WebLobby was calling URL's without being requested when sending MLCmd's




======================================

Release Notes for 10/24/06 - Version 3.00.35

======================================

Added

Scene Options Panel now shows x and y position of RemoteFX2 and RemoteFX layers

Can use layer as name in setProperty|layer~move~0~0 - layer is replaced with name of FX layer the command is being called from

IE as MLServeCmd:

MLServeCmd.MLCmd|MLCommand~{{clientname}}~setProperty|layer~ move~0~0


Added Scenes

0019_horoscopes_aries.mls

0019_smooth_home.mls

0019_nav_smooth_home.mls

0019_menu_main.mls

0019_menu_sources.mls

0019_menu_zones.mls


Updated Scenes

0019_horoscopes.mls


Added Skins

0019_0002_1366x768.jpg


Added Library 0019 Graphics

0019_0002 (extended size to 1366x768)

0019_0013 (extended size to 1366x768)

0019_0500(Element)

0019_0501(Element)

0019_0502(Element)

0019_0503(Element)

0019_0504(Button)

0019_0505(Element - Divider)

0019_0506(Element)

0019_0507(Element)

0019_0508(Element)

0019_0509(Button)

0019_0510(Element - Divider)

0019_0511(Element)

0019_0512(Button)

0019_0513(Element)

0019_0514(Button)

0019_0515(Button)

0019_0516(Button)

0019_0517(Button)

0019_0518(Button)

0019_0519(Meter)

0019_0520(Element)

0019_0521(Button)

0019_0522(Button)

0019_0523(Button)

0019_0524(Button)

0019_0525(Element)


Update Library Graphics

0019_0002 (extended size to 1366x768)

0019_0013 (extended size to 1366x768)



======================================

Release Notes for 10/20/06 - No Version Change

======================================

Added Scenes

0019_slidingcams.mls

0019_nav_slidingcams.mls

0019_slidingmeu_02.mls

0019_nav_fx2_slidingmenu.mls

0019_nav_fx1_slidingmenu.mls

0019_horoscopes.mls

0019_nav_horoscopes.mls

0019_horoscopes_pisces.mls

0019_horoscopes_aquarius.mls

0019_horoscopes_capricorn.mls

0019_horoscopes_sagittarius.mls

0019_horoscopes_scorpio.mls

0019_horoscopes_libra.mls

0019_horoscopes_virgo.mls

0019_horoscopes_leo.mls

0019_horoscopes_cancer.mls

0019_horoscopes_gemini.mls

0019_horoscopes_taurus.mls


Added Library 0019 Objects

0019_0413 (Background Element)

0019_0414 (Background Element)

0019_0415 (Button)

0019_0420 (Button)

0019_0421 (Button)

0019_0422 (Button)

0019_0423 (Button)

0019_0424 (Button)

0019_0425 (Button)

0019_0426 (Button)

0019_0427 (Button)

0019_0428 (Button)

0019_0429 (Button)

0019_0440 (Button)

0019_0441 (Frame)

0019_0442 (Button)

0019_0443 (Button)

0019_0444 (Element)

0019_0445 (Button)


Updated Scenes

0019_nav_home.page2.mls



======================================

Release Notes for 10/18/06 - Version 3.00.33

======================================

BugFix

After sending a MLCmd to move a layer, sending any MLCmd afterwards would cause the layer to move back to its 0,0



======================================

Release Notes for 10/17/06 - Version 3.00.32

======================================

BugFix

Problems when editing buttons introduced in 3.00.31 are resolved in 3.00.32



======================================

Release Notes for 10/17/06 - Version 3.00.31

======================================

Added

0019_0096 (Background Element)

0019_0401 (Meter)

0019_0402 (Button)

0019_0403 (Button)

0019_0404 (Button)

0019_0405 (Meter)

0019_0406 (Meter)

0019_0407 (Meter)

0019_0408 (Meter)

0019_0410 (Button)

0019_0411 (Button)


BugFixes

After selecting MLCmds, they would frequently repopulate MLCmds into other buttons when using the Up/Down keys while in Design Mode



======================================

Release Notes for 10/10/06 - Version 3.00.30

======================================

Added

Meter Graphic: 0019_0095 (Meter)

MLCmd: stopSound

MLServeCmd: MLServeCmd.MLCmd|MLCommand~{{clientname}}~stopSound



======================================

Release Notes for 10/06/06 - Version 3.00.29

======================================

Added

Tint and Alpha label to STATES Sliders


BugFixes

Fix for MusicLobby: Eratic Volume Control




======================================

Release Notes for 09/29/06 - Version 3.00.28

======================================

Added

MLCmd: playSound|filename.mp3

MLServeCmd.MLCmd|MLCommand~{{clientname}}~playSound|filename .mp3

Populated MLCmd drop down with newer commands




======================================

Release Notes for 09/18/06 - Version 3.00.27

======================================

Added

0019_0080.1 (Button)

0019_0081.1 (Button)

0019_0082.1 (Button)

0019_0083.1 (Button)

0019_0084.1 (Button)

0019_0085.1 (Button)


BugFixes

File Fields in Background Skin and FX Layers are no longer Case Sensitive. IE garden.jpg = garden.JPG

In scenarios where a BackgroundFX was an SWF and going into Design and Launch mode the OverlayScene would not reappear




======================================

Release Notes for 09/18/06 - Version 3.00.26

======================================

Added

Scene: 0019_nav_slidingmenu.mls

Scene: 0019_slidingmenu.mls


BugFixes

RemoteFX2 or OverlayScene2 would appear on subsequent scenes, variable is now cleared before going to next scene




======================================

Release Notes for 09/17/06 - Version 3.00.25

======================================

Added

New MLCmds to produce sliding animated menus:

setProperty|~x~

Where FX Layer = RemoteFX, RemoteFX2, BackgroundFX, OverlayFX

Where equals any numeric value

setProperty|~y~

Where FX Layer = RemoteFX, RemoteFX2, BackgroundFX, OverlayFX

Where equals any numeric value

setProperty|~move~~~

Where FX Layer = RemoteFX, RemoteFX2, BackgroundFX, OverlayFX

Where can equal 1 - infinity (1 jumps to the x & y position instantly, the higher the number the slower the transition)




======================================

Release Notes for 09/17/06 - Version 3.00.24

======================================

BugFixes

Background Skins were not loading properly




======================================

Release Notes for 09/17/06 - Version 3.00.23

======================================

Added

New RemoteFX2 or OverlayScene2 Layer under Scene Options Panels

New MLCmds:

setProperty|RemoteFX2~visible~true

setProperty|RemoteFX2~visible~false

setProperty|RemoteFX2~visible~toggle

New MLServeCmd:

MLServeCmd.MLCmd|MLCommand~htpc2~loadOverlayScene2~0014_nav_ games.mls

New Library 0019 Objects

0019_0088 (DVD Image Frame)

0019_0089 (DVD Image Frame)

0019_0090 (CD Image Frame)

0019_0091 (CD Image Frame)

0019_0092 (Panel)

0019_0025b (Element)

0019_0013b (Element)

0019_0093 (Element)

0019_0094 (Element)

Scene: 0019_media.musiclibrary.page2.mls


Bugfixes

Incorrect reference in OverlayScene


Changes

Scene: 0019_nav_media.fullscreen.mls

Scene: 0019_nav_home.480.mls

Scene: 0019_home.480.mls (Samsung Q1 Sample Scene)

Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.1.mls

Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.2.mls

Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.3.mls

Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.4.mls

Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.5.mls

Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.6.mls

Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.7.mls

Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.8.mls

Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.9.mls

Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.10.mls



======================================

Release Notes for 08/24/06 - No Version Change

======================================

Changed

Scene: 0019_callerID.mls

Scene: 0019_nav_media.fullscreen.mls


Added

Library Object: 0019_0087 (Button)



======================================

Release Notes for 3.00.21 on 08/18/06

======================================

BugFixes

If startup Scene had no buttons on it, it would show a Library Object Not Found icon


Changed

Scene: 0019_nav_media.cable.mls


Added

Library Item: 0019_0003b (Background Element)

Library Item: 0019_0004b (Button - 70% transparent)

Library Item: 0019_0004e (Button)

Library Item: 0019_0006e (Button)



======================================

Release Notes for 3.00.20 on 08/14/06

======================================

Added

0019_0003b (Background Element)

0019_0004b (Button - 70% transparent)

0019_0004c (Button)

0019_0006d (Button - 80% transparent)

0019_0006b (Button - 70% transparent)

0019_0006c (Button)

0019_0006d (Button - 80% transparent)

Scene: 0019_nav_home_c.mls

Scene: 0019_nav_home_d.mls


Changes

Changed text label in Startup Options Panel from MLServer Client ID to MainLobby Client Name

Changed text label in Startup Options Panel from Computer Name to MLServer Domain

Changed all fonts in Designer to Arial



======================================

Release Notes for 3.00.19 on 08/09/06

======================================

Added

Library Object: 0019_0075 (Meter)


BugFix

MainLobby wasn't trying to reconnect to MLServer after loading a scene after the default startup scene




======================================

Release Notes for 08/07/06 Updates

======================================

Added

0019_0072 (Decora Switch Top)

0019_0073 (Decora Switch Bottom)

0019_0080

0019_0081

0019_0082

0019_0083

0019_0084

0019_0085

0019_0086


Changes

Updated Scene: 0019_insteon.mls




===============================================

Release Notes for 08/06/06 - No Version Change to MainLobby

===============================================

Changes

Updated Scene: 0019_cable.mls

JPGLoaderTimed01Second - improved reloading for Panasonic IP Cameras


Added

Scene: 0019_insteon.mls

0019_0069

0019_0070

0019_0071

0019_0100 Displays Live Video from Capture Card 1

0019_0101 Displays Live Video from Capture Card 2

0019_0102 Displays Live Video from Capture Card 3

0019_0103 Displays Live Video from Capture Card 4

0019_0104 Displays Live Video from Capture Card 5

0019_0105 Displays Live Video from Capture Card 6




===============================================

Release Notes for 3.00.18 on 08/05/06

===============================================

BugFixes

Library Object Not Found would appear when coming from a Scene with no Buttons




===============================================

Release Notes for 08/04/06

===============================================

Changes

Updated Scene: 0019_callerID.mls

Updated Scene: 0019_weather.mls

Updated Scene: 0019_nav_media.mls


Added

Scene: 0019_weather.02.mls

Library Object: 0017_0050 (Russound Keypad)





===============================================

Release Notes for 3.00.17on 08/03/06

===============================================

Changes

Minor Enhancements for future Trial Users.

Updated Scene: 0019_media.mixer.mls

Updated Scene: 0019_weather.mls


Bug Fixes

The following items would stop working after loading the same scene twice

Time.HourMinutes

Time.AMPM

Date.Date

Date.DayMonthDateYear

Date.MonthDate

Date.MonthDateYear

Date.Year




===============================================

Release Notes for 3.00.16 on 07/26/06

===============================================

Bug Fixes

MLServeCmd.MLCmd|MLCommand~myClient1~Application|maximize wasn't working

Monitor.TurnOn and Monitor.TurnOff was not working


Added

Modified MLCmd dropdown to include more commands



===============================================

Release Notes for 3.00.14 on 07/16/06

===============================================

Bug Fixes

When switching to scenes with no background skin, the prior scene bkgd skin was still showing up

Attempting Client>Server ping to prevent clients from not disconnecting (mlserverconnect.swf - version 3.04)

Ping feature requires MLServer 3.0.52 or higher


Added

Library0019: 0019_0300 [Progress Bar - requires 0 - 100 value]

Library0019: 0019_0301 [Progress Bar with Time Code Display - requires two variables in label field separated by a ~]

ie: {{mldevicemanager_media_percent_done_001}}~{{mldevicemanager _current_mediatime_001}} (will not work with

First value represents a percentage and must equal 0 - 100

Second value can be any label but was designed for a timecode display (01:52:31)




===============================================

Release Notes for 3.00.13 on 07/12/06

===============================================

Bug Fixes

Resolve some systems problem of saving out "0" byte files

When Opening some scenes, all locked graphics would become unlocked.




===============================================

Release Notes for 3.00.11 on 07/10/06

===============================================

IMPORTANT: This update requires MLServer 3.0.25 or higher

Bug Fixes

When changing a graphic through Library List box then moving button using arrow keys, object would cycle through Library objects instead of Moving

When Opening a Scene while in Design Mode, any objects that were programmed to be nonclickable could not be selected without pressing DESIGN first



===============================================

Release Notes for 3.00.10 on 07/06/06

===============================================

IMPORTANT: This update requires MLServer 3.0.25 or higher


Added

Font: Tahoma

Library Object: 000_0031


Changes

Updated 0019_media.mls

Updated 0019_security.mls

Updated 0019_media.movies.mls


Bug Fixes

Display Options had incorrect 840x480 display reading instead of 800x480



===============================================

Release Notes for 3.00.9 on 06/14/06

===============================================

IMPORTANT: This update requires MLServer 3.0.25 or higher


Changes

Associated MLS files with MainLobby again


Added

Skins > Windowsbkgd_1024x600.jpg




===============================================

Release Notes for 3.00.8 on 06/14/06

===============================================

IMPORTANT: This update requires MLServer 3.0.25 or higher


Added

Options > Display 800x480 Button

Skins > 0019_0001_01.jpg


Changes to Library0019

0019_0002 (extended to fit 1280 width)

0019_0013 (extended to fit 1280 width)

0019_0014 (extended to fit 1280 width)

0019_0023 (extended to fit 1280 width)

0019_0023 (extended to fit 1280 width)

0019_0009 (enlarged click area)



===============================================

Release Notes for 3.00.7 on 06/11/06

===============================================

IMPORTANT: This update requires MLServer 3.0.25 or higher


Added

Added MLCmds: (Case Sensitive)

Can be called from an MLServeCmd of another computer: MLServeCmd.MLCmd|MLCommand~clientname~Application|Move~20~20

Application|Move~x~y (where x and y are coordinates)

Application|Shift~x~y (where x and y are relative coordinates - see Options > Display. For a 1024x768 display, -80 is absolute 0)

IMPORTANT NOTE: The entire designer main menu will move with these commands. Make sure you have saved your scene before using




===============================================

Release Notes for 3.00.6 on 06/08/06

===============================================

IMPORTANT: This update requires MLServer 3.0.25 or higher


Added

Passes MainLobby Version number into MLServer Client Window

URLEncoding is now being used when communicating between MLServer and MainLobby to support displaying unique characters from MLServer Variables

MLServerConnect Version Number is viewable on OPTIONS > STARTUP panel (only displays after MLServerConnect version 3.01)


BugFixes

Text.Multiline wasn't updating

Text.Multiline wasn't tinting

Text.Multiline wasn't supporting

in MlServer Variables




===============================================

Release Notes for 3.00.5 on 05/28/06

===============================================

BugFixes

Keyboard Shortcuts were not working in Overlays


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcascio* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd hate to see posts from "anti-Cinemar" people.
> 
> 
> And some minor updates to MainLobby which include the following (which address one of Rippers concerns about not being able to add Up, Down and over graphics of their own). But this is just fluff I suppose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seacrest...out.



Well that makes me smile knowing you addressed one of my main concerns after 18 months..I may have still been a customer had you started doing things LAST YEAR.


It seems you have some activity now but I'm sure soon you'll have to do a total rewrite of Mainlobby since the compiler guys are out of business?


Just curious Mario..do you pay for advertising here at AVS Forums? I notice the link to Cinemars website under your posts and you also posted a direct link to a product above that you sell...it seems others who have been on AVS for years pay for the sort of advertising you do...perhaps the rules have changed?


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> And some minor updates to MainLobby which include the following (which address one of Rippers concerns about not being able to add Up, Down and over graphics of their own). But this is just fluff I suppose.



Eh, yes, 99% of that is fluff. You're claiming victory for free upgrades that (other than #45 with the flash button thing), basically addressing bugs and add buttons? That is a pretty low bar. That type of logic scares the crap out of me, as I'd be petrified how little you would do and claim it's a real upgrade, and i have to pay.


Avoiding ludicrous claims like that is exactly why I don't have an issue with $95/year at all.


- Seacrest way out


(see, I can be just as cool and condescending as you or DavidL. Aren't you all terribly terribly impressed? )


----------



## mcascio

IVB - for someone who is not "anti-Cinemar" - you have a great way of belitting everything Cinemar does. Claiming Cinemar charges for all new graphics. So when we give them away with updates, you now say that it's just graphics. It's kind of like a little brother who just says "So!" after everything you say.


The only reason I'm participating in this thread is to combat all the little "dings/comments" i've been seeing and false statements that have been thrown out so loosely (ie consumer vs prosumer). If they were accurate that's one thing - but they are not. No - I don't have time to go through all your posts and point them out. We could go on and on about why one product is better than the other and how my Dad could beat up your Dad. Every thread turns into the same discussion.


It's amazing how the most vocal campaigners who say they are not "anti-Cinemar" have never even used the latest version. Or in some cases - haven't used it beyond a trial years ago.


I'm very good about "not" bashing others wares - especially when I haven't used them. It's very unprofessional and childish - especially in a public forum. I prefer not to stoop to even this level. However, when I see this many jabs being taken that are not true - it doesn't sit well. I'd hope you'd extend the same professional courtesy and only discuss the products you use and really know.


Cinemar's dealers are out on the job doing real installs and don't have time to participate in these discussions - and I would prefer not to as well. In the end, the thread ends up containing useless information.


As I've always said, try out CQC and try out MainLobby - let the user decide. One is deveoped right brain and the other left brain. Each has their pluses and minuses.


----------



## Mr.Tim

I don't understand the problem with updates being constantly released, even if to fix minor problems.


As I understand it (and I was lurking on the Cinemar forums before ML 3 was available, so I followed the controversy), one user's issue was that there were no releases for months prior to ML3. Now that they are consistantly providing updates, they are faulted again.


Sure a lot of these may be very minor, but at least they're addressed and users are not told "wait for the next big release".


If they're going to integrate new features/fixes/etc it would only be expected that the version be updated.


I interpret that the problem is that Cinemar is stating they released xxx updates, and some users take that as meaning leaps and bounds are made with every point release.


I guess that having been compiling software for years gives me a different idea-- it's being supported.


I don't own either product.. yet. I have found this thread to be a great help though.


Tim


----------



## IVB

Point taken, please educate me on Cinemar. Let's start with your upgrade comment, and educating me on that.


Where are these 142 product upgrades that you've done for free? Were all 142 released to the public, or were they really just internal build/releases? I only see release notes for 17 of them on your site, where 3.0.8 was the production release. Furthermore, only 8 seem to have any new functionality or graphics, most of those even added a single command or driver that most users wouldn't even notice. I'm sorry, but I can't consider a bugfix an upgrade.


If you want to understand my frustration, it's this: Truth in advertising. That's all i'm after, and i've yet to see that.


----------



## royalj7

I'm am also trying to decide between ML and CQC and this thread has been helpful. Take out all the crap that AVS seems to attract (don't seem to get this too much on Cocoontech) and there has been a lot of good infomation. I think there are alot of active and vocial CQC users on the web (a good thing) and maybe not as many ML users (not necessarily a bad thing). Dean and IVB have been great about answering questions and providing info, and so has Mario and Smoothtlk. Thanks for your time everyone!


--Jamie


----------



## Mr.Tim

IVB- not sure if you're addressing me?


royalj7- I was thinking the same thing! It appears that CQC has more users on the web that are willing to help out and are passionate about it. To some people that could sell a product. Definitely not something that should be overlooked. Not to say MainLobby doesn't have the same (LathanM), but it appears the scales are tipped in CQC's favor.


As I don't know if I was being addressed above, I would like to add that it appears that Cinemar makes a distinction between "update" and "upgrade". It's second nature to me, but I did go back and look. Searched this thread for "Upgrade" and it was only used by Mario in one post, and he did state they had charged for some *Lobby upgrades, and reserved the right to charge for MainLobby upgrades. An upgrade would be at a .5 or better. His point was that the user decides whether or not to upgrade. Semantics really, but after looking back it does appear the MainLobby crew uses the terms religeously. It's not all that true either, as IVB mentioned the flash buttons could be considered an upgrade, not an update (semantics, again).


Although I don't think that's much different than CQC, really. You can choose not to pay the $99 to CQC as well. I don't know how the EOL of each product is structured. eg if MainLobby 4 is a $100 upgrade, and you choose not to do it, is MainLobby 3 supported at all? Same question would go for CQC-- if you don't pay the $99, how long is your current system viable.


Something that I would relate is *nix kernels. For a looooong time after FreeBSD 5 was out, 4.x was still receiving security updates. No additional functionality really, but if a bug was discovered, it was fixed. I am the kind of guy that once something works, I don't want to upgrade to the latest-greatest version until everyone else works out the bugs for me










Tim


----------



## Dean Roddey

Our policy is that we will only do about 5 or fewer new releases (or updates or upgrades or whatever you call them) a year. This has been the case for three years now. Our product is very solid so we've just not had any need to do lots of small fix type releases. And it's a pain for our customers to upgrade multiple machines in their system and so forth. Of course that means that they tend to be pretty significant, even when they are a dot release.


We are coming up on our 3 year anniversary since 1.0, and our releases so far have been:


1.0, 1.1, 1.1.1, 1.1.2, 1.1.3

1.2

1.3.10, 1.3.13, 1.3.4, 1.3.5, 1.3.6

1.4.15, 1.4.22, 1.4.23

1.5.6, 1.5.7

1.6.2, 1.6.5, 1.6.20, 1.6.21


And we are about to do 2.0 of course. So I think that it shouldn't be about who put out the most patches and fixes, but who had the least need for patches and fixes.


We do of course put out some number of beta releases before each official release. But we usually only have 5 to 10 such beta drops. Even on 2.0, which is a huge upgrade, will have only about 23 to 25 drops over the last few months.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcascio* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The only reason I'm participating in this thread is to combat all the little "dings/comments" i've been seeing and false statements that have been thrown out so loosely (ie consumer vs prosumer). If they were accurate that's one thing - but they are not.



One mans opinion..and he happens to be the person selling the product.


As for the "dings/comments" and false statements you claim have been thrown out I sure hope you're not insinuating my comments are not accurate?


I started using Mainlobby in June 2005..I believe the first thing I purchased was July 2005 and you can check your records and see I purchased virtually everything you sold at the time.


Now...check your records or I'm sure you can recall from your own mind the amount of updates to the Mainlobby product between June 2005 and February 2006...got a list of all the updates you can post?


Mario...when you and your sidekick come into a public forum and advertise your product like you do then I guess you should expect both good and bad comments, nobody is gonna bow down and kiss your @ss and praise your product if they know different...


As for your comment



> Quote:
> In the end, the thread ends up containing useless information.



Quite the contrary...in fact I think its a good thing for people like me to point out my experience with your product and the company overall, if you don't like it.. oh well.. but please don't whine and make it seem like people are unfairly picking on Cinemar..I can back up any of my words any time and this thread is far from containing *useless information"


I have tried out both products for many months at a time and also had the pleasure to deal with the employees from both companies in their support forums and through email...its unfortunate for Cinemar I had the experience I did with your company during the 8 months or so and now I post in a public forum I have visited for many years...long before these products existed.


**You and David both may recall when I made complaints on the Cinemar support forums many times my comments/threads were deleted when I was asking for help or simply asking "Why no updates?"(other users posts were deleted also)...its unfortunate now afterwards that you can no longer delete my comments at your whim and act like some sort of overlord with an attitude after I spent $1000 with your company.


This is a public forum and anyone is entitled to their opinion whether you like it or not...unfortunately for Cinemar if you choose to publicly advertise and gloat your products on one of the largest forums on the Internet every comment will not be positive and posts and threads won't be deleted like they are in your forums..if you or David choose to come to AVS and freely advertise your product expect more than few people to comment just as they do with every other product mentioned here.


----------



## smoothtlk

Again, just to set the record straight, to date there have been two Cinemar users that Cinemar has had to delete more than a couple posts (outside of outright spammers) as they did not comply with our forum policies. Since then, there have been none. And, only one has been banned. This is out of thousands in our customer base. That is the statistic.


----------



## Mr.Tim

Dean- Your point about "releasing the most patches" is a point well taken. I agree that if you have a solid base there will be less bug fixes. Since I'll only be requiring one server, and am used to constantly applying patches, I kind of like the constant updates. But again, you make a good point.


Ripper- good point as well. Not every post will be positive, and that's what makes this thread great. Pointing out problems is invaluable to those of us making decisions, as long as it is done in a respectful manner. Believe me, I remember the complaints on the Cinemar forum (I don't know who was making them, but I would bet money they were from you), as well as the posts being deleted (something I take issue with).


For the purposes of my own selection, I would like to know what happens when you don't elect to upgrade or pay the maintenance fee. Are the older products given any support, or are you on your own? I'm sure that either company would answer an email, but if there is an issue such as a programming flaw, does either package address those in the older versions? We know the answer in ripper's situation; has there been any change? How about CQC?


Thanks,


Tim


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Again, just to set the record straight, to date there have been two Cinemar users that Cinemar has had to delete more than a couple posts (outside of outright spammers) as they did not comply with our forum policies. Since then, there have been none. And, only one has been banned. This is out of thousands in our customer base. That is the statistic.



Just a note to others..postings of mine that were deleted were in reference to updates/upgrades to the Cinemar product(s) I had purchased..I had every right to ask during my 8 months of use "When will new updates be released"? and think I deserved more than "Coming Soon" which in Cinelingo means "many months from now"...as mentioned 8 months and NO UPDATES to the core product, perhaps David will say something silly like "It ran perfect during that time and therefore didn't need updates" 


If my postings regarding "When will new updates be released"? were some sort of violation of some forum policies on a support forum I guess I don't need to say much more.


Seems rather absurd that I purchase your product and ask legitimate questions concerning when it will be updated on your forums and then you delete my posts..spin it anyway you want David but your actions were uncalled for and I chose to defend myself in your forums...in fact you realized more than once after deleting posts you had did the wrong thing and magically the threads returned...you would think I should be able to ask about updates to all the products I purchased without having posts/threads deleted?


You can try to poke me with a stick after the fact but I assure you if you want to press the issue publicly I have the threads archived somewhere and can post them to show your attitude towards me when I asked about updates to products I purchased..the postings in question did not violate your forum policies otherwise I would have dropped it long ago, plain and simple you deleted my posts because you couldn't provide an adequate answer to my questions and felt I was making Cinemar look bad so instead of providing a truthful or reasonable answer to my questions you took it upon yourself to delete my threads and posts..the worst thing you could have done.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> For the purposes of my own selection, I would like to know what happens when you don't elect to upgrade or pay the maintenance fee. Are the older products given any support, or are you on your own? I'm sure that either company would answer an email, but if there is an issue such as a programming flaw, does either package address those in the older versions? We know the answer in ripper's situation; has there been any change? How about CQC?



If there's a fatal flaw found in the last few official released versions, we'd obvious fix it if it's fixable and someone is still using it. But we don't back-port improvements to old versions and maintain multiple code streams. It's too complex and takes too much away from existing release work. But we don't have many customers stay on old versions becasue our new releases are solid and provide so many benefits.


If you don't pay the upgrade fee, and you decide to upgrade at some point, you would have to pay the fee plus the penalties, which makes it come out more than just paying the owed upgrade fees. It's 5% per month, so if you didn't pay for a year, and then upgraded, it would cost you $152 instead of $95. Two years and it would cost you $304.


----------



## Mark P

Wow, where to start?


First things first I see CQC advertising 10 fold to Cinemars in these forums, I actually found out about Cinemar from a friend of a friend or a friend type scenario. Just because you put in your signature that you aren't an employee of a company, really means boo squat. On the internet anybody can say anything and whether theres freebees or free support or other fringe benefits, who would know, who would care. I do notice a massive amount of Cinemar bashing and some even came from me but I felt I paid for stuff that wasn't working and 96% of that was my fault but if theres anything I hate more its digging through forums asking questions about automation, I would rather be installing a plugin and "BOOM" it works, most of my Cinemar problems were because I was completely new to this stuff but there are a couple bugs I have but it seems its more the fault of my security cameras than Cinemar, the other being status of Insteon not performed in Cinemar not appearing on a regular basis, with all the Insteon bashing that goes on I figure its an Insteon problem.


Other than that, last night I installed DVDLobby and TheaterTek last night and was amazed at how fast I had Movies loaded with Cover art, description and tons of info done by typing the movie title and everything was loaded and available in an instant, my friend I was talking too while doing this did this with 250 movies in 3 hours and can watch these from any client, While we were helping eachother I loaded a Denon plugin and have complete control of my Denon 5805 with a premade client scene ( all buttons and zones done). I also setup my projector, HD DVR, and Lumagen scaler via USB-UIRT and made a command button that fires all these items ( I cant seem to get the PJ power because its a press and hold) so I had a good night that followed a couple days of having a real good day when I got a Jandy pool controller operating via wireless rs232, the plugin was a 3rd party plugin wrote by another Cinemar user that wrote his own plugin including the client scene. I have several other things that are amazing and working but it would take alot to list everything I have rockin & rollin now and all I have left is ELK stuff.


I showed up for a couple CQC meetings and the first one was extremely fun and the people were great, helpful and knowlegable about CQC and we spent 6 hours having a great time discussing possibilitys. We worked on a weather page and after about 30 minutes of them trying to explain to me how to get everything working we basically had a cloud on my scene page with the temperature, I imagine to make a page that resembles my 3 page weatherlobby scenes would take me about 2 days to build in CQC ( OK maybe a day but I find CQC very hard to navigate, I even notice the pros have troubles remembering where they are at while watching them in action) From a complete idiots point of view I can tell CQC is way over my head and its just to split up into so many areas that its confusing to figure out where to even start and I really don't want to follow tutorials time and time again to get moving at a fast pace. Cinemar I resort to calling support if I get in a jam I cant figure out but I have a tendency to go overboard with what I want to do.


Mainlobby is cake to make scenes in and was fairly fast to learn because everything is done on one page, the downfall is also its best asset..........its Flash based and for a guy like me that likes to do all his own graphics I need a $500 program to do so, Im just picky, most would find the provided buttons more than sufficient. Flash when done right just looks amazing on my clients, the CQC scenes never really did much for me even though many have preset scenes you can use, I would never be able to figure out how to tint and alter their stuff, let alone make my own.


Insteon was a huge deciding factor to me because I guess Im the only guy on the planet that it works for and the CQC folks seemed less than enthused about it so you rely on third party stuff that is basically hit and miss to make it function in groups and such, Cinemar is on the verge of releasing their newest Insteon plugin ( hopefully in the next day or so) that will basically let you do anything and everything from inside Cinemar including extensive grouping of dimmed/ramped rates, they have already wrote and sent me extensive macros to get me by until the finalize their plugin. Im not sure where all this " you pay through the nose for Cinemar" comes from, so far I have got freebee after freebee from the owners and other members writing plugins, maybe not the plugin itself but addendums only a nutjob like me would think of I would like to see so they spend hours writing updates and I think I was the only one crying about Insteon grouping so I feel sort of guilty for whining about it but they are addressing it and its obviously a SOB. You can write your own plugins until the cows come home if you want, I have had people notify me that they have wrote plugins I can try and so far they all work great and were free. I have spent around $600 on Cinemar and I figure I have about $150 more and Im done, I would really hate to see how many days I would have spent making DVDLobby in CQC and loading all the art and such and having it all run properly in theaterTek with a customized remote and coverart. It took me all of about 30 minutes in Cinemar downloading 2 plugins, ten or fifteen settings, and one button push to gather all the DVDinfo/art. Time is money and free phone support is really, really, really attractive.


----------



## smoothtlk

Inaccurate Ripper.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> First things first I see CQC advertising 10 fold to Cinemars in these forums, I actually found out about Cinemar from a friend of a friend or a friend type scenario. Just because you put in your signature that you aren't an employee of a company, really means boo squat. On the internet anybody can say anything and whether theres freebees or free support or other fringe benefits, who would know, who would care.



For the record, we offered Vivek soem freebies, not for anything he says here or elsewhere but for helping out newbies so much. He turned us down. Whatever his motivations, they are not driven by any benefits he gets from us.


As to your other points, this has been disucssed already pretty thoroughly. CQC is not designed to be fast, it's designed to be deep and flexible, since that's what is most important in the professional market. The differences will be apparent in the ways that you saw. It's pro/pro-sumer tool and assumes that the enormous flexibility is worth the extra effort. If it is not for you, then it may not be what you want. Professionals, OTOH, will hold flexibility and depth to be all important. They will learn the tools and apply that experience over and over, so the effort is far more amortized for them over time.


----------



## Mark P

Im not sure it is more flexible, everytime someone asks "why is it more flexible?" people say "Try it and find out". Its a cop out beyond belief. A simple "we can do this, this and that and they cant" should be easy considering the amount of time people spend saying how much more powerful something is.


I will say from a newbies point of view I call something that loads from a plugin and the clients scenes are complete and finished in 5 minutes is pretty powerful to me. Money is powerful, time is money, so............


I know people that are good with computers, networking, writing code, ascii, programming and had them take a look at CQC and they seemed leary that it was easy to grasp for a beginner or even a moderate user, and to have an entire house and theater up and automated was weeks and possibly months down the road. I am pretty sure people that are good with this stuff love CQC and love to tinker and get something to work but I could see frustration in my future since some member had been working for weeks trying to get something going and still experiencing bugs. If I had Johnathons experience, Id probably never leave home and play with automation 24/7 and love it but I came to the conclusion of get it done and get on with life again


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Just because you put in your signature that you aren't an employee of a company, really means boo squat. On the internet anybody can say anything and whether theres freebees or free support or other fringe benefits, who would know, who would care.



Well, perhaps no one cares, but as long as it's been mentioned let me absolutely destruct any hint of any perception of any doubt in anyone's mind: I get no money, no freebies of any kind, i'm paying for the new media repository just like everyone else. I turned down Dean so I can say with a clean conscience that I am just a regular joe. I am not an old friend of Dean's, although I did physically meet him once 12 months ago b/c I was going to HomeTech Solutions to get some equipment, and he & ellisr63 live 10mins away.


Everything I do is because my day job is way too stressful, and I need an outlet. Helping folks get up to speed on doing HA is that outlet. I've repeatedly stressed that anyone is welcome to attend the webexes, even if they use another software package.


I hope that eradicates any doubt in anyone's mind about me and my complete and utter independence from either CQC, Cinemar, or anybody else.



> Quote:
> I know people that are good with computers, networking, writing code, ascii, programming and had them take a look at CQC and they seemed leary that it was easy to grasp for a beginner or even a moderate user, and to have an entire house and theater up and automated was weeks and possibly months down the road. I am pretty sure people that are good with this stuff love CQC and love to tinker and get something to work but I could see frustration in my future since some member had been working for weeks trying to get something going and still experiencing bugs. If I had Johnathons experience, Id probably never leave home and play with automation 24/7 and love it but I came to the conclusion of get it done and get on with life again



Well, to each his own. If you search on the Cinemar forums for my name, you'll see that I tried 3x to simply get DVDLobby to work. I tried for hours upon hours. I just couldn't get it to work.


What is intuitive to some is lunacy to others, and that's true for both products.


----------



## smoothtlk

"it's designed to be deep and flexible, since that's what is most important in the professional market. "


Disagree Dean....time is money. A pro wants to get in , get out, get paid.


What you are describing is a DIY approach who wants everything, because it's cool and a challenge. Our DIY'r have way more complicated systems because most homeowners won't pay for that amount of time investment (to QQQ's point).


**************************************

IVB quotes on Cinemar forum:


"Ok, that's nothing short of brilliant. Elegant yet simple.

Did that same thing - set up a network share, "re-installed" MLS on all boxes but to the same share, works like a champ. Thanks."


"that should be in the FAQ - it's an outstanding picture which answers all my DVDLobby questions. Still have some MusicLobby questions, but I'll post that in the MusicLobby forum."


Another post was answered by me the same morning with no response from IVB.


IVB, in looking through all of your posts (21), I would not have guessed that you were unhappy. I wish that you "spoke up" at the time because you have been a big asset to Dean and it would have been nice to keep you as a customer


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Im not sure it is more flexible, everytime someone asks "why is it more flexible?" people say "Try it and find out". Its a cop out beyond belief. A simple "we can do this, this and that and they cant" should be easy considering the amount of time people spend saying how much more powerful something is.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I already covered this previously in this thread. It's not what you can manage to do in the end, it's how you can do it. Since the professionals market that CQC targets never would make use of canned stuff (why would anyone pay them for that?), what matters is now flexible it is to do highly customized systems. So the comparison is how hard/easy it is to do an extensively customized system, not how easy it is to set up some canned interfaces. I made a substantial post previously in this thread where I enumerated the ways that CQC makes customization easier beause of it's substantially higher level of integration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> I will say from a newbies point of view I call something that loads from a plugin and the clients scenes are complete and finished in 5 minutes is pretty powerful to me. Money is powerful, time is money, so............
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the professional market time is also money, and customers are paying the professional for their time to create a highly customized solution. So the time in which that can be done is what is important. So the same rule applies, just in a different situation, which creates a very different type of emphasis.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Les Auber

Mark,

Since I'm none of the things you mention I can attest that it is possible for someone to setup CQC in fairly short order. I'm only doing straight theater type control, nothing fancy, but the only painful part was creating a driver that I needed. The rest of it was straight forward to set up the templates to run my system with a couple days effort. Again nothing fancy there but all of the required settings are automated to select any controlled device along with on/off etc. I wouldn't say that a completely non-technical person could get there but you don't need to be the ultimate computer geek either.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Disagree Dean....time is money. A pro wants to get in , get out, get paid.
> 
> 
> What you are describing is a DIY approach who wants everything, because it's cool and a challenge. Our DIY'r have way more complicated systems because most homeowners won't pay for that amount of time investment (to QQQ's point).



That is not what custom installers tell us. They do want to get in and out as quickly as possible for what needs to be done, but they also have to justify their price and differentiate their services, and they do that by a high level of customization. So a product that allows for a high level of customization is important to them. They will reuse work where possible, but since each system tends to be different, flexibility is an important issue for them.


And of course a high level of integration is important to them. A 'best of breed' argument doesn't really go far in the custom installation world really. They want to be dependent on the fewest companies possible.


I'm not an installer myself obviously. I'm just repeating what we've been told. Our product wasn't taken seriously in the installer market until it recently reached that high level of flexibility and integration.


----------



## Mike_W




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> "Disagree Dean....time is money. A pro wants to get in , get out, get paid.



While I'm sure many custom installers are like this, I sure wouldn't want one with this attitude working on my project. I want an installer who charges a fair price and included in that price is his time to make sure that everything is working properly and might even include a free follow-up visit a month or two later to fine-tune stuff after I've used it for a while.


I've had experience with contractors who have the attitude you stated above and those are the ones to stay away from.


Mike_W


----------



## smoothtlk

Mike_W,

Yes, I understand your point and agree from that perspective. The installer is a businessman. It's a balance act. I am saying that to an installer, Efficiency for profit is key. If you can get to X level in 1 day, vs. X level in 10, which will make you more competitive and be able to spend more time consulting with your customer and listening to customer needs?


The point is that it takes less effort to do any level of customization with MainLobby. Works out of the box for the basic (still more powerful than great majority of systems), and is highly customizable for the high end customer that wants their look and navigation and function that is different for each location in the house. MainLobby covers both spectrums. You can get most running in a night, or take the next year to micro customize everything. All depends on what you want to do. The tools are not the limitation.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mike_W,
> 
> Yes, I understand your point and agree from that perspective. The installer is a businessman. It's a balance act. I am saying that to an installer, Efficiency for profit is key. If you can get to X level in 1 day, vs. X level in 10, which will make you more competitive and be able to spend more time consulting with your customer and listening to customer needs?
> 
> 
> The point is that it takes less effort to do any level of customization with MainLobby. Works out of the box for the basic (still more powerful than great majority of systems), and is highly customizable for the high end customer that wants their look and navigation and function that is different for each location in the house. MainLobby covers both spectrums. You can get most running in a night, or take the next year to micro customize everything. All depends on what you want to do. The tools are not the limitation.



Correct of course. The philosophy that is, I have little interest in this CQC versus ML thing, 90% of which seems to me to be strongly biased opinions as opposed to facts. Anyhow, there must be balance/common sense in everything and it's perfectly legitimate for a business person to consider ease/time of setup required for a product and how much time it will take to accomplish xyz. And it's in no way anti-consumer either. It's the entire reason C4 has managed to attract a good DIY following. Because it allows a lot of people to get up and running very quickly which equals time if you are doing it yourself and money if you are paying someone to do it.


Taking the above into consideration no way (*necessarily*) equals the attitude Mike_W implied.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A simple "we can do this, this and that and they cant" should be easy considering the amount of time people spend saying how much more powerful something is.



Mark has issued this challenge several times. Can't one of the CQC fans give a solid answer? Does a lowly Crestron specialist like me need to dream up scenarios for you CQC users














. To be truthful, I could only dream up challenges to post to the ML guys and ask them if they can do the same since I am not familiar with the latest versions of ML at all.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mark has issued this challenge several times. Can't one of the CQC fans give a solid answer? Does a lowly Crestron specialist like me need to dream up scenarios for you CQC users
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . To be truthful, I could only dream up challenges to post to the ML guys and ask them if they can do the same since I am not familiar with the latest versions of ML at all.



Sorry dude, I could easily tell you, but you're just going to have to download both packages and spend 10 hours on each to find out


----------



## Mike_W




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Correct of course. The philosophy that is, I have little interest in this CQC versus ML thing, 90% of which seems to me to be strongly biased opinions as opposed to facts. Anyhow, there must be balance/common sense in everything and it's perfectly legitimate for a business person to consider ease/time of setup required for a product and how much time it will take to accomplish xyz. And it's in no way anti-consumer either. It's the entire reason C4 has managed to attract a good DIY following. Because it allows a lot of people to get up and running very quickly which equals time if you are doing it yourself and money if you are paying someone to do it.
> 
> 
> Taking the above into consideration no way (*necessarily*) equals the attitude Mike_W implied.



Understood. I had a flashback to when contractors would come in and do a crappy job just to get it done and get out as fast as they can. Your point is completely valid.


Mike_W


----------



## QQQ

Understood on my part as well. I definitely know where you are coming from. Before I started my own business I worked for one too many companies where the focus was on getting in and getting out as quickly as possible rather than getting it done right. At many business installers even learn that they will be "punished" for doing a good job, i.e. taking too long and/or giving a customer the correct amount of attention.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Mark has issued this challenge several times. Can't one of the CQC fans give a solid answer? Does a lowly Crestron specialist like me need to dream up scenarios for you CQC users . To be truthful, I could only dream up challenges to post to the ML guys and ask them if they can do the same since I am not familiar with the latest versions of ML at all.



I've answered this a couple times. My answer is that the question is not well formed. In the end, you can probably manage to do anything no matter how primitive the tools. You could write your own custom code worst case to work around most shortcomings.


To the professional installer (or the DIY'er looking to do something on a (semi) professional scale) it's not whether a product can be pushed to a given point given an unlimited amount of effort, but now well designed the product is for flexibility. I addressed this issue in a long post a while back where I enumerated what I think are the things that make CQC more flexible in this practical way.


I see it as two curves on a graph, where the vertical axis is effort required and the horizontal axi is the increasing level of customization and sophistication you can achieve. A product like CQC starts in the upper left and then moves downwards, at some point leveling out for a fairly broad swath, then moving back up as you get into quite high end systems, and then at the end it would shoot up rapidly as you reach sci-fi levels of sophistication.


Other products will start in the lower left and stay pretty flat for a while, and then move upwards because they are easier to start, but as the level of sophistication of the results increases, their orientation towards easy startup or lower level of integration becomes a liability. And then of course they do the same thing at the end and start upwards again and then shoot up.


CQC aims to provide a reasonably low, reasonably flat line across a range of sophistication of results that would map to the average to pretty sophisticated home automation/media management scenarios. In that part of the graph, what is undue complexity in the tools to a casual customer becomes a required level of flexibility to the professional installer or semi-professional customer. We'd obviously over time light to keep that line flat out further and further to the right, and we'll also try where possible to lower it on the left side.


Anyway, that might have been a very over-intellectualized view of the situation, but that's how I see it. I just think that that once the level of sophistication and flexibility gets beyond a low end home automation scenario, the types of tools you need to get the job done need to be of a different sort than when you are doing lower end solutions.


----------



## Les Auber

Sorry, but I'm in the same boat with ML which is why I've avoided making the us vs them statements like that. When I was making the call about 3 years back everything I could read on the Cinemar site came across as a HTPC front end first and foremost with some hardware control duct taped on. HTPC control was a non-issue for me so I didn't go there. CQC looked as if it was designed from the ground up as a control system. Everything I've seen lately says ML has moved on and progressed. I'm happy where I'm at so no reason to go through ML again, re-evaluate and second guess. Dean's been doing a fine job of growing the thing so it's still far more capable then I need at the moment and has been from the outset.


----------



## IVB

Wow Dean, I have no idea what you just said.


I suppose if we're actually answering this question yet again, it's this; If you have a multi-PC environment doing anything more than basic stuff, then distributed secure control is of paramount importance. Most folks in that environment will want the ability to control and/or modify anything from any machine, and use a robust set of 2way hardware drivers to control their equipment.


With CQC, you have that distributed network control.


You have no need for file-sharing, which after my current freakin' wife accidentally taking out something is hurting my non-CQC life.


You have a dedicated and optimized DotNetViewer application, which gives secure access to your regular whole house control templates over your PDA or other smallclient device. Once you get your base setup done, you can also access it remotely over your PDA or inlaws laptop in a safe & secure fashion to turn up the heat before you go home.


You have 130 drivers, probably >100 of which are hardware. You are not locked in to either a single hardware choice for a video switcher, or writing your own driver, you have a choice.


I can't remember what other advantages i've listed in the past, but i'm too tired to make this point yet again. Try the search button, I'm sure i've proselytized CQC here once or twice in the last few months...


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've answered this a couple times. My answer is that the question is not well formed. In the end, you can probably manage to do anything no matter how primitive the tools. You could write your own custom code worst case to work around most shortcomings.
> 
> 
> To the professional installer (or the DIY'er looking to do something on a (semi) professional scale) it's not whether a product can be pushed to a given point given an unlimited amount of effort, but now well designed the product is for flexibility. I addressed this issue in a long post a while back where I enumerated what I think are the things that make CQC more flexible in this practical way.
> 
> 
> I see it as two curves on a graph, where the vertical axis is effort required and the horizontal axi is the increasing level of customization and sophistication you can achieve. A product like CQC starts in the upper left and then moves downwards, at some point leveling out for a fairly broad swath, then moving back up as you get into quite high end systems, and then at the end it would shoot up rapidly as you reach sci-fi levels of sophistication.
> 
> 
> Other products will start in the lower left and stay pretty flat for a while, and then move upwards because they are easier to start, but as the level of sophistication of the results increases, their orientation towards easy startup or lower level of integration becomes a liability. And then of course they do the same thing at the end and start upwards again and then shoot up.
> 
> 
> CQC aims to provide a reasonably low, reasonably flat line across a range of sophistication of results that would map to the average to pretty sophisticated home automation/media management scenarios. In that part of the graph, what is undue complexity in the tools to a casual customer becomes a required level of flexibility to the professional installer or semi-professional customer. We'd obviously over time light to keep that line flat out further and further to the right, and we'll also try where possible to lower it on the left side.
> 
> 
> Anyway, that might have been a very over-intellectualized view of the situation, but that's how I see it. I just think that that once the level of sophistication and flexibility gets beyond a low end home automation scenario, the types of tools you need to get the job done need to be of a different sort than when you are doing lower end solutions.



While some of you (Mark?







) will see the above as a cop out, IMO it's actually an excellent answer. To use an analogy, and perhaps to explain what Dean said in a manner that will make sense to a broader group of people, many years ago we used to sell a system by a company named PHAST. If you installed a fairly basic PHAST system without too much customization it could be set up quite quickly and could even include some functionality that a more advanced Crestron or AMX system would not include save without additional and more costly add-ons. But the moment you scaled a system up and wanted some sophisticated functionality (which to the end user might actually = simple, powerful and easy to use) - God help you. It could literally, and I mean LITERALLY, take 8 hours to program something that I could accomplish with the more advanced programming tools in Crestron or AMX in 15 minutes. In actuality you simply learned not to attempt certain things with a PHAST system.


I am not saying that is the case with ML and I'm sure the ML people will say otherwise. I'm simply saying that Dean's explanation is IMO excellent with regards to what truly powerful automation tools offer versus weaker ones. Whether it applies to CQC versus ML I'll let them argue out .


----------



## smoothtlk

QQQ, no, doesn't apply










Not the same analogy at all.

There will be (I am sure) debate on both sides...but here is one example that comes to mind....


In MainLobby, Irrigation control is handled by a mini application. It has a database of your sprinklers, your sprinkling devices and the schedules. It comes with a prebuilt user interface that works out of the box You can set various schedules, view progress of a zone and of the entire cycle and see when it's scheduled to sprinkle next. You can interupt the schedule, or force water a particular zone. Right out of the box. This is what we call a "plugin". It is really an application all by itself.


In CQC, folks have told me that Irrigation is controlled by a central generic database where the user has to define all scheduled actions and the devices. And then build a user interface from the GUI toolbox. The CQC irrigation plugin is software that tells the relay to open or close. Rest of functions is done by the core CQC system.

CQC users might say that this is the more "powerful" approach. And it is. But, it likely takes on the order of 5 times longer to get sprinklers sprinkling.


Now, in MainLobby, there is ALSO a central generic database with a drop down rules builder that the installer can custom configure things.. And it can talk to the sprinkler devices too. And there is a custom graphical toolbox to custom build a UI. So, if there is some odd ball thing that the out of the box system can't handle - you can use the custom path too. I use this approach to control my ponds water features (via "sprinkler" valves and pumps). But for most installs, the out of the box method does a much better job than the wall mounted sprinkler controller in 99% of residential usage. The customer can now manage his irrigation system from any touchscreen in the house (or business). It is now available for interaction with other automation systems like a security system.


----------



## QQQ

Not to be a CQC fanbox but simply to take this direction a little furyther - Dean, couldn't a user also write a CQC module/driver that included timer and scheduling functionality?


smoothtlk, I definitely understand the value of predefined functionality. Like you, I also do not see power versus some predefined functionality as mutually exclusive. I suspect Dean will add more wizard type functionality in the future.


----------



## smoothtlk

Of course CQC can build that. But it is Work....and this is only one example. There are hundreds. When you add them up, it's a signficant difference in the integrator's profit or loss.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Of course CQC can build that. But it is Work....and this is only one example. There are hundreds. When you add them up, it's a signficant difference in the integrator's profit or loss.



Could you list those hundreds?


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Of course CQC can build that. But it is Work....and this is only one example. There are hundreds. When you add them up, it's a signficant difference in the integrator's profit or loss.



I think it is relevant though that people understand that both systems can have pre-defined drivers. That what you are talking about is not some basic difference in architecture but rather the fact that you've taken the time to create a sprinkler driver /add-on. Which I agree is a benefit. It's especially beneficial if you are packaging them with predefined interfaces.


----------



## IVB

Let's not forget that it's possible to build plugins or modules upon the right architecture relatively easily.


Doing plugins first, then fixing the architecture, well, that's not possible without a major rewrite.


And back to the OP, for $95/year, you'll get those plugins or modules. No worries.


----------



## Dean Roddey

Each product will have things that the other doesn't. A CQC user could just as easy ask, what no built in web server? I have to look up commands and type them into my interface buttons and so forth. All these things will make some difference in a given implementor's speed of implementation, based on what they need to do.


We've chosen the more generic scenario when it comes to almost all device support. The reason being that it's hard enough to get people to write good, reliable device drivers, even when those drivers only need to be direct interfaces to the hardware. When you impose lots of other stuff on a driver, it gets harder for them to do and, if you change that infrastructure that the driver is specialized for, it becomes even harder to get all of them to change their drivers to fit.


By keeping drivers very cleanly oriented towards just the devices they control, and pushing the logic out to CQC itself as much as possible, drivers are easier to write and the system remains less brittle over time.


We do of course have one set of drivers that impose special issues, and that is the media repository and renderer drivers, because we needed to create a very generic media architecture that could encompass many different types of media devices. Unlike a small thing like a sprinkler, media management is a huge chunk of what we have to do, so it was justified in that case I believe, though the tradeoff is that we've not allowed any third parties to write these two kinds of drivers so far, we've done them for now. We need to allow this architecture to become quite mature before we allow it, so that we don't develop evolutionary baggage that will drag us down later.


And of course there is always the concern of having one set of tools to do things, versus creating 'hundreds' of ad hoc tools to do it.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> I have to look up commands and type them into my interface buttons and so forth. All these things will make some difference in a given implementor's speed of implementation, based on what they need to do.



Is that part true about ML? I honestly don't know, which is why I ask. I know that one of the things i'm most relieved about with CQC is that I don't actually have to know any command syntax at all - it's all point&click, a la the following. This is how i'd either add a new command button or extend an existing command button.


Frankly, that's why i'm able to add seemingly complex screens so quickly - it's just not that hard, really doesn't take more than 30 minutes to do...


----------



## IVB

I just realized that I don't have even a trial version of ML, so I can't go in myself to see.


Can one of you guys post screenshots of how you'd add a new command button in ML, and how you'd set it up to do something? To keep it simple, you could do the same thing as above - show me how you'd add a button that not only did a single action, but ideally also has some if-then logic in it as well. That way I can get a good mental picture of how it works.


----------



## QQQ

I say this without intending to insult. Some of you guys are out of touch with "ordinary" people







. Yes, I understand the shots you posted above IVB but the average person would not find that "point&click" nor "it's just not that hard". To the "average" person that looks like gibberish. That's why Mark_P is telling you that it doesn't look easy to him. It's really funny that you post it as an example of "how easy it is".


I think some of you CQC fans need to contain your excitement and give potential customers a little more realistic view of the work and time that is required to learn CQC. If you keep telling people how easy it is and then someone see screenshots like the ones above, then it puts your other comments into doubt as well. I think the truth is that CQC at this point is a power users product. And I don't think that's a bad thing.


Just to clarify, I DO think it is learnable by a determined individual that is PC savvy and willing to spend the time and the support group/community is obviously (according to all) excellent. What at first looks like gibberish becomes much easier to understand with some tutorials. I'm just trying to provide a balance here.


----------



## Ripper99

Just so nobody gets the wrong idea..smoothtlk and Mario don't pay me for talking bad about their product










And Dean doesn't give me any sort of CQC freebies...if fact when I first started using CQC I hired Mark from CQC to write the Krell HTS driver and it cost $500...the same driver with the exact same command set cost $750 from Cinemar.


Mark also wrote me two free one-way drivers for the Krell KCT and DVD before I paid for the HTS driver..thats about all the freebies I ever got and I paid for the full package just like everybody else.


I make $0.00 from anything dealing with CQC and do it simply as a hobby..I'm far to busy with my real job...I have time to post only because I work from home, I don't sell systems to people or even sell graphics because I just don't have the spare time and I probably wouldn't make as much so why bother.


First time I tried CQC..used it a day or two and uninstalled and went back to MainLobby for about 4 more months..one day I seen some new interfaces someone did so I visited the forums and decided to give it and honest try.


The second time I downloaded IVB's templates for his system and swapped out his widgets with my graphics and one day later I was controlling my 1100 CDs and everything was looking how I wanted to control my music and with actual buttons I could make any size something I couldn't easily do with Musiclobby because they coded the interface in Flash and it was not customizable.


At the time Mainlobby ran slow with my collection size on a 3Ghz pc with 1GB ram..this was very apparent when switching to CQC and I never looked back since...perhaps the Musiclobby works smoother now but back then it choked or ran slow for me..and David doesn't pay me to say this.











Anyways..I'll admit CQC is a different product and at first glance some might be intimidated but I can assure you it is alot easier to understand than it looks..I'm not a programmer or network engineer by any means I simply downloaded and configured it just like any other program or hardware and made it work and when I didn't understand I read the manual and asked questions when I was lost .


I didn't buy it and expect my system to magically configure itself and I sure the hell wasn't gonna pay someone to draw graphics for me and connect everything and really could care less about the language it was written in as long as it was stable.


I'm trying to build a stable control and automation system and could really care less about plugins for sprinklers and would rather have flamethrower cannons to melt the 3 feet of snow in my front yard tonight.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Is that part true about ML? I honestly don't know, which is why I ask. I know that one of the things i'm most relieved about with CQC is that I don't actually have to know any command syntax at all - it's all point&click, a la the following. This is how i'd either add a new command button or extend an existing command button.



I think that that was established a while back in this thread. Since ML uses Flash, it is using a third party tool to create user interfaces. That tool isn't integrated into the product and cannot provide access to that kind of automation system information. An ML user seemed to verify that you have to manually look up stuff and type the command information into the buttons as apposed to selecting from lists. In their rules engine stuff, that's their own interface, and you can do so.


Since CQC has its own interface system and editor, it can use the same interface for settting up actions everywhere, including in the user interface, and the interface widgets (being our widgets) can be targets of actions as well. These are among the advantages I pointed out in my earlier long post when someone asked what some of the advantages are.


This is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier, where higher levels of customization begins to cost more, and at the level of customization that a professional generally requires would very much outweigh something like a built in sprinkler system since it impinges on the core stuff that you would do a lot of of when you are building a customized automation solution.


In my opinion anyway.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think that that was established a while back in this thread. Since ML uses Flash, it is using a third party tool to create user interfaces. That tool isn't integrated into the product and cannot provide access to that kind of automation system information. An ML user seemed to verify that you have to manually look up stuff and type the command information into the buttons as apposed to selecting from lists. In their rules engine stuff, that's their own interface, and you can do so.
> 
> 
> Since CQC has its own interface system and editor, it can use the same interface for settting up actions everywhere, including in the user interface, and the interface widgets (being our widgets) can be targets of actions as well. These are among the advantages I pointed out in my earlier long post when someone asked what some of the advantages are.



I wrote a post earlier questioning how much of an advantage that is. But after thinking about it, I deleted it. I agree this is a huge plus. It's not that it makes CQC more powerful per se (and I'm not even talking about versus ML, just in general), rather that it allows for a much more direct programming approach. It should result in HUGE time savings and less programmer errors (errors that occur when a programmer has to move back and forth between a design program and a coding program) that have to be debugged. This is something that probably requires some experience having done this type of programming (whether with CQC, Crestron, AMX, ML etc.) to fully appreciate. I've done it both ways and would love to be able to always do it all from one view as long as I can use whatever graphics program I want to create the graphics (which CQC allows).


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, to each his own. If you search on the Cinemar forums for my name, you'll see that I tried 3x to simply get DVDLobby to work. I tried for hours upon hours. I just couldn't get it to work.
> 
> 
> What is intuitive to some is lunacy to others, and that's true for both products.



Hmmm, I seem to have got DVDLobby up and running easier than WeatherLobby (lol) like I told someone today, I seem to glide right through the supposedly hard stuff and fight the little cheesy stuff like NetCallerId, this is why I am suprised I never really grasped CQC because I seriously do try and overthink everything and stretch it to the limit. Im going to have to keep buying new phone lines because I know Mario sees my number pop up on caller ID and thinks " Oh chit, here we go again, more insane requests that I have to explain the reason its ridiculous why anyone would want to do THAT"


Obviously something seemed to click with me lately because I am finding Cinemar very powerful, fast and simple, minus the occasional blip like a projectors press and hold IR command which is still bugging me since Digital Projections neglects to answer their phones to give a discreet on code. So far thats about it and this really has nothing to do with Cinemar and more to do with USB-UIRT and DP not having the smarts to allow you to turn on your PJ with a simple on command. I could go rs232 or LAN but why? On/OFF and thats pretty much it, I already have the Mercury dialed in everywhere else.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just realized that I don't have even a trial version of ML, so I can't go in myself to see.
> 
> 
> Can one of you guys post screenshots of how you'd add a new command button in ML, and how you'd set it up to do something? To keep it simple, you could do the same thing as above - show me how you'd add a button that not only did a single action, but ideally also has some if-then logic in it as well. That way I can get a good mental picture of how it works.



Sure, apples to apple I guess, heres my entire Denon 5805 setup. I choose serial, comm7 and Im through and on to something else in 35 seconds including DLing the plugin and installing.











Now the Denon is setup and done, is it in CQC with one selection?


On the client side here is what the 3rd party guy who wrote this plugin includes to drop into Mainlobby and play with or move buttons to other pages, there were more buttons but I deleted a bunch since I knew I wouldnt need them otherwise this is what I got, if I click any button the Denon 5805 performs flawlessly. The next screen will show where I edit my buttons and such using the drop down you see at the top











And heres the meat opened up, theres more if you want to be " flexible" and I do but everything here is already done, I didnt have to add or type anything, if I want to change a button I hit edit click the button I dont like, scroll through hundreds of different buttons if I so choose and click it, but this next screen is going to show you the real POWER behind Cinemar ( atleast a huge thing for me who wants nice looking interfaces with tints and easy to set up on and off states.




















I guess I will make this comparison to hopefully explain my point of view, when I tried CQC and watch others use it and look at your examples I feel like I am stuck back in 92 using Windows 3.1 and clunking around spending hours trying to figure out what the heck a srcinput field value if/else is.


when using Cinemar I feel like Im using Windows 98 on the verge of XP with XP results that I will be glad to show you when Im done but it will be in a video so you can grasp the power of "Flash". Honestly I wish someone had pointed me to the CQC premade scenes because I couldnt find them and editing yours would have taking me days to figure out.


When I read this thread the "Im a Mac & Im a PC" seems to linger in my mind and I will let you guess whos who


----------



## smoothtlk

"I think that that was established a while back in this thread. Since ML uses Flash, it is using a third party tool to create user interfaces. That tool isn't integrated into the product and cannot provide access to that kind of automation system information. An ML user seemed to verify that you have to manually look up stuff and type the command information into the buttons as apposed to selecting from lists. In their rules engine stuff, that's their own interface, and you can do so. "


Dean, you apparantly have never used MainLobby.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think that that was established a while back in this thread. Since ML uses Flash, it is using a third party tool to create user interfaces. That tool isn't integrated into the product and cannot provide access to that kind of automation system information. An ML user seemed to verify that you have to manually look up stuff and type the command information into the buttons as apposed to selecting from lists. In their rules engine stuff, that's their own interface, and you can do so.
> 
> 
> Since CQC has its own interface system and editor, it can use the same interface for settting up actions everywhere, including in the user interface, and the interface widgets (being our widgets) can be targets of actions as well. These are among the advantages I pointed out in my earlier long post when someone asked what some of the advantages are.
> 
> 
> This is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier, where higher levels of customization begins to cost more, and at the level of customization that a professional generally requires would very much outweigh something like a built in sprinkler system since it impinges on the core stuff that you would do a lot of of when you are building a customized automation solution.
> 
> 
> In my opinion anyway.



When I read this the first thing I think is, Does CQC include Photoshop CS2 suite ? Because to make a nice looking interface I think youre going to have to have it but I do understand what youre saying, to get full effect with Cinemar you need Flash if youre a Ripper or me for that matter.


I think the difference where you say you have to type in commands and yours are in a drop down is slightly misleading, in Cinemar the point is its already done, when you buy a plugin everything is already done and setup for you, if you want to change something its called Cut & Paste but I get what youre saying. Lets take DVDLobby for example, I DownLoad it and install it and heres how I add a movie I click the search Icon you see here and pick my movie from Changer or other places we wont discuss and in 10 seconds its done and on the client its all there with TheaterTek remote controls and everything











In CQC what plugin do you DL and how many button pushes does it take to get all the info, as you say everything is dropdown in CQC so theres no typing anything if I understand you correctly and can we see the client side with its remote that operates Theatertek would look like and is it pre-made for you? In other words with Cinemar it takes 1-4 hours to load the program and hundreds and hundreds of movies and your watching them on any client in the home. (the 4 hours is assigning the 200-500 movies the Cover art and all those goodies using whatever sweet thing Cinemar includes to do this)


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Les Auber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mark,
> 
> Since I'm none of the things you mention I can attest that it is possible for someone to setup CQC in fairly short order. I'm only doing straight theater type control, nothing fancy, but the only painful part was creating a driver that I needed. The rest of it was straight forward to set up the templates to run my system with a couple days effort. Again nothing fancy there but all of the required settings are automated to select any controlled device along with on/off etc. I wouldn't say that a completely non-technical person could get there but you don't need to be the ultimate computer geek either.



What I am doing is what I would consider fairly complicated but the 2 hardest parts are done and were so easy to do I almost threw a party when done. What I discovered is if its got rs232 capability, its controllable even in different buildings hundreds of feet away without wires, when I attended the last CQC webmeeting ( those are very cool and I plan to attend them not being a CQC user just to see advancements and things they are doing) so I can keep in touch with other alternatives if I find Cinemar just cant do something I want to do. In the last meeting I was interested in Insteon mainly because thats the huge part of what I have. At that time, as I understood it, CQC was able to only poll 20 Insteon devices at a time and I have 200 devices when done. I was under the impression one guy (I feel for this guy) is writing the plugin and didnt plan on adding grouping of 200 devices with dim/ramp rates and informed me I would have to use 3rd party software and when I checked out the 3rd party software it looked sort of confusing and clunky too me. I also got the feeling since some people dont like Insteon CQC was taking the position that its crap so they arent going to jump in all guns blazing and I felt I would be a nusance bothering their plugin developer every 5 minutes trying to figure things out. Hopefully the guy has a life and from what I gather the Insteon stuff is a bear to program for and it can take 500 hours to get a plugin to perform without grouping dim/ramp rates.


I just feel awkward and out of touch with CQC and all that power, if they hid the power, put everything in plain english and had a server side editor and a client side editor I would have proceeded more. Maybe they do but as I watched people in action on it, it always seemed like drop down after drop down after different programs and different screens and different programs and my head was just spinning. If youre a Pro Automator, Im sure its probably easy to use and extremelly good stuff.


----------



## Les Auber

Just out of curiousity what would it have taken/cost to get 2 way serial control of a Theta Casablanca III/Dreadnaught I, Denon DVD-2900 and a Sony VPL-VW10HT going in ML? I'm assuming that the IR setup of the rest is similar in which the IR codes are learned if there aren't existing files.


On a separate issue. The one thing I don't understand is why anyone with either package would want to directly control sprinklers, HVAC, lighting etc. It is far more robust in my mind for the HA system to talk to the sprinkler controller, HVAC controller, lighting controller etc. That way if the PC crashes (not as common under XP but it still can happen) everything still works. The lawn is watered, the heat still comes on and the lights still work. Maybe inconvenient but not a crisis.


----------



## LathanM

QQQ, I think you have the right approach to this entire discussion. You are starting to remind me of a debate moderator, which is a good thing.










Lets face it neither product is the end all be all in HA. There is no one solution that is perfect. Just pick one and leave it at that. You pick one and if it works out for you great, if not you pick another. That is the nature of software it isn't a one size fits all world. And yes I know that neither package is free and there will be a percentage that will end up buying both packages but that is just the nature of the beast. I see this kind of thing daily in my job, department X buys software package Y. Then a year later package Z comes out and they want it because they think it will be a better fit. The split is about 50% either way.


Where is Electronic House, Consumer Reports, CNet or ZD when we need them?










A couple of impartial independant reviews would do wonders. Sponsors, anyone want to review both products and let us know the findings?


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mike_W* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> While I'm sure many custom installers are like this, I sure wouldn't want one with this attitude working on my project. I want an installer who charges a fair price and included in that price is his time to make sure that everything is working properly and might even include a free follow-up visit a month or two later to fine-tune stuff after I've used it for a while.
> 
> 
> I've had experience with contractors who have the attitude you stated above and those are the ones to stay away from.
> 
> 
> Mike_W



Theres a difference between a driveway asphalt rippoff artist and someone that comes to your site properly prepared to get 4 days work done in 4 days. No one is saying they dont want pro work, what I dont want is some automation installer charging me $100 an hour setting up things that should be setup with one plugin and a setting or two, I also want nice graphics on my interfaces and would like to have dozens of choices so hopefully an installer isnt at my house taking 2 hours to setup a weather page. Hopefully all my media stuff is done in a timely fashion as well. If I have a Denon 5805 I expect it will take him no more than 15 minutes to hook it up and have it running on the touchscreen because this is possible. I want complete lighting control in a 12 year old home and Im going to choke on my coffee when the installer tells me we have to use 100K worth of switches because we dont like the ones that cost 10K. Hopefully I can pull up a "watch movies section" and have hundreds of movies available and know he spent a couple hours doing this. While you guys have seen shoddy rushers, I have had more than my share of high priced milk it men that translate something being of higher quality because they stretched it out while explaining " this is an extra, thats an extra"


Most people dont want complexity, they want to control volume and turn their lights on and off. Ofcourse they want reliability as well but that doesnt translate to plodding along taking hours to set up something thats reliable and takes 5 minutes to setup.


Everybody has seen both ends of the spectrum here, I also dont want someone hanging around for weeks setting stuff up while no one is home, get in, get it done, get paid and thank you very much heres a bonus for being so efficient


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I have a Denon 5805 I expect it will take him no more than 15 minutes to hook it up and have it running on the touchscreen because this is possible.



I'm glad you don't expect anything too extreme














.


----------



## LathanM




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Les Auber* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On a separate issue. The one thing I don't understand is why anyone with either package would want to directly control sprinklers, HVAC, lighting etc. It is far more robust in my mind for the HA system to talk to the sprinkler controller, HVAC controller, lighting controller etc. That way if the PC crashes (not as common under XP but it still can happen) everything still works. The lawn is watered, the heat still comes on and the lights still work. Maybe inconvenient but not a crisis.



Most of these systems, hvac, lighting, etc allow you to override the controls from their control panels so even if the HA crashes you still have manual control. I can't think of any right now that don't allow for direct control but there may be a few out there. The HA system just moves alot of that control to a central location to make them easier to access and more user friendly. Sprinklers are the only one thta I am not sure of since I haven't looks at the controllers. I would assume though the internal timers still work if they are availble on the system.


----------



## smoothtlk

Les,

MainLobby combo is $179.99

The Denon plugin is $39.99 EDIT: oops, I thought you meant Denon Reciever. Not sure on DVD player


The Theta plugin doesn't exist because it isn't in high demand (never have had a request or any discussion of the hardware). You could very likely use the MLGenericSerial to 2 way communicate, which is free. You could reuse one of the many scenes that exist to build the UI.

Yes, IR is supported. www.cinemaronline.com/hardware.irsolutions.html 

Easiest means to get multizone IR control over your system. Ability to import IR codes or Learn them as well. Takes a couple of minutes to install and get going.


Dean, the drop down rules builder in MLServer is used to build the rules. From the client, the button just invokes that built rule. The user is free to also build a command in the MainLobby client designer, but that is optional. Again, multiple ways are supported. What you are focusing on is the worst possible way to use MainLobby (though it is possible to use it that way - but why would anyone?), which apparantly the information that is being spun into CQC and out. Your information is dated about two years.


----------



## smoothtlk

LathanM, yes there are internal timers in most sprinkler controllers. Most limit the max time a relay can be engaged in case PC communication expires so the lawn doesn't get overwatered.


----------



## LathanM

Can we remove Pro installers from the mix for a second. Time and design in the DIY world is a different matter. Having worked with a few and talked to several more, most have set packages and rules they use when designing a system. This allows them to quickly build systems from known working parts that they have tested before getting to the client site. So al large part of the install work is already done for them. Intergrating new gear or pieces the customer already has is an entirely different matter and is normally billed accordingly. It is then up to the customer to decide if they want to keep the old or add new equipment that the installer is still learning. It is like the last VPN I set up for a client. Before the project started I reviewed their configuration and equipment and told them beforehand that intergrating their Cisco equipment wouldn't be a problem but adding in the small offices behind Watchguard routers will take more time. I layed out 2 options one for upgrading and one for working with the Watchguards and let them choose.


When you are working with a good pro installer they will recommend things that they know will work, have tested or will (normally) tell you up front what you are in for. Time involved in making it work is part of buisness and depending on the installer they may or may not want to soend the time. I have a stack of routers, switches and other networking equipment here to play with and learn what works and doesn't. Most good installers do the same thing.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm glad you don't expect anything too extreme
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Well, seriously, If I as a complete no mind with automation can do it, surely a pro can. If I leave for 3 hours and come back and the guy is still playing around making an interface. Heck, I gave him 10 minutes to make sure all the button work










I think you know what I meant, if one way takes 4 hours and the other takes 10 minutes and they both do the same thing is the 4 hour way better because its more complex? Is it more powerful and flexible?


Back to trying to find a discreet on code for a DP Mercury, uuuhhhhggg, Im going to have to charge myself $400 or get off my pooper and go 232 for an on switch


----------



## QQQ

I took a quick look around earlier to see if I could find a discrete IR for the DPI stuff. I didn't find one but that doesn't mean they don't have one.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I took a quick look around earlier to see if I could find a discrete IR for the DPI stuff. I didn't find one but that doesn't mean they don't have one.



Interestingly the Mercurys inner guts that include this are actually made by NEC (GX5000) I have learned alot about DPI since looking for this code which doesnt exsist but they are confirming altering the hex code to lengthen the time its blasted, supposedly one of those 120 digits is the length of time the IR is sent but no one in this country knows which number it is and in England its Friday night and their guru is at the 10th anniversary Party ( probably heavely sedated with Guiness by now)


----------



## Les Auber

Lathan/David

Thanks. Nice to know I'm not the only one to look at it that way. I keep seeing people talking of controlling individual sprinklers, dampers, thermostats, light switches etc and couldn't imagine why. Let the individual controllers do what they do best and then let the HA system orchestrate the whole thing.


David,

If I had the time I might run the trial of ML just to see if the generic serial system would work. For as nice as the gear is Theta's serial protocol is a real kludge. Commands aren't bad but the replies are all dumped in a long string with everything sent without a end or start bit. All the reply bits are different so knowing where it begins and ends was a mess just to be able to pick the xth bit and display it as volume.


The Sony PJ is even worse. Command syntax changes with each one and if you ask for status before it's ready the whole thing croaks. Nice surreal light show but no picture. No idea what Sony did there but it's a pain.


----------



## IVB

Thanks for those screenshots, MarkP. A few followup questions:


1) Cut&Paste is fine if all you want to do is re-arrange an existing screen, but what if you want to design an entirely new one, where the current widgets don't exist? How is that done in ML?

2) Still not following why you think a basic interface takes 4 hours in CQC vs 10 minutes in ML. Could you explain that more?


----------



## smoothtlk

IVB, As MarkP mentioned, if you don't like the look of the existing screen, you just go into Edit mode (1 button push), Click on the button (2), click on the Library button (3), Select a new button (4), Click Close (5), Click Design (6), Click and drag the button (7), Click Save (8), Click Launch (9) Done.


----------



## thartigh

Ok the debate continues! Glad to see it in a positive form that provides quality information to those looking for it.


CQC folks keep speaking of how it is at a more "pro level" and that ML is ok until you try to get to the level of customization that CQC has. I still dont see why this is said. I thinks its fairly evident that both can achieve the same end result. The only difference is how it is handled on the back end of the software. CQC says there method is better than ML's but that does not make it more customizable or flexable.


I still have a question that was not answered. How does the secure method that CQC uses benefit me?


~ I dont think people are waiting outside waiting to hack into my system so they can turn my lights on and off.


~ CQC's system runs on windows it is just as vonerable as ML. Once I hack into windows, I can stop either system by closing it.


~ The only thing that needs to be secure is your personal information.


File sharing cant be so bad, most POS systems use it with MS access sharing a central database. Most major chain resteraunts use digital dining, posi touch or other similiar software. If they can trust it for buisness I think I can trust it for HA. I dont see on the news about people hacking into outbacks system and ordering several thousands in food and charging peoples credit cards. So the firewall must be doing its job.


I understand that answering what one can do over the other is hard but... I keep hearing "more flexable and customizable". I think people have a misconception on pre-built. The pre-builts are editable, if you dont like something remove or add to it with whatever you can think of. Or to go even more custom and you can make your own scene that pulls the same information as the pre-built ones. I would say that 95% of the info ML uses is global in the server. Meaning any client machine can access it.


Overall I guess that HA is just that. If it helps out our everyday lives and makes things easier than it did its job, but I dont want to spent countless hours tweaking my system. I want to enjoy using it.


IVB, sounds like you need to quit that stressful job and get into home automation or start a company hosting your webex meetings for other companies. Life is to short for a stressful job. It sounds like you really enjoy HA and helping others. By the sounds of it "it brings you to a happy place" Please don't take offense, I am just complimenting.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Interestingly the Mercurys inner guts that include this are actually made by NEC (GX5000) I have learned alot about DPI since looking for this code which doesnt exsist but they are confirming altering the hex code to lengthen the time its blasted, supposedly one of those 120 digits is the length of time the IR is sent but no one in this country knows which number it is and in England its Friday night and their guru is at the 10th anniversary Party ( probably heavely sedated with Guiness by now)



ESP cause I was just going to ask which model - as you know many of their models are OEM'd.


----------



## LathanM

Side note: I am amazed that Theta is so unfriendly. They gear is wonderful to use and listen to. I guess they fell into the same trap of adding serial control as an afterthought. I wish one company would come out with a generic module that other companies could buy that handled this sort of thing. They exist for remote controls so why not for other things.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IVB, As MarkP mentioned, if you don't like the look of the existing screen, you just go into Edit mode (1 button push), Click on the button (2), click on the Library button (3), Select a new button (4), Click Close (5), Click Design (6), Click and drag the button (7), Click Save (8), Click Launch (9) Done.



Thanks for that. Hopefully you don't mind continuing the education process a bit more.


BTW, this is one more area where I got TOTALLY lost when I did my trial - I just couldn't figure out how to build or massively modify a screen. Don't get me wrong - I think DVDLobby is a very attractive package. But it evokes the same mental response as ripper's screens do - gorgeous, slick, professional, but very very sterile. Hence, I may not be your target audience as I want to start with a blank slate and build up - it's faster than taking an existing look and modifying the crap out of it.


Q1) How would you start from a blank screen and build up?

Q2) How would you add a new button or bit of fuctionality to a screen?

Q3) What if I wanted to embed logic inside it, how would I do that? My pause button goes out to determine which device is playing (SageTV vs TheaterTek vs 777. Only send the pause command to the device that's playing in that zone) It uses if-then-else logic in combination with variables to accomplish this.


Screenshots would be helpful, as i'm having a bit of a hard time mentally following what you're saying.


Thanks.


----------



## LathanM

I am taking a page from the CQC book and putting together a couple kickstart movies. I should have one up by the end of the day that walks you through the basic interface and adding buttons. I will post a link when it is finished.


----------



## Dean Roddey

It's the latter that Vivek mentions above that I was talking about. If you have a button on an interface, and you need to embed some pretty fancy logic into it, to say power on the theater. How do you go about that?


I'm not talking about changingthe look of a button. And not pre-fab stuff that is more along the lines of 'this is a remote control for device X that's just on the screen', where you have one button that sends one pre-fab command. I'm talking about stuff like I'm doing in my system. I press one button and it powers on those devices that are required for the desired input source, and powers off the others, waits for things to power up, lowers the lights, etc...


What are the steps required to set up a button in ML to do that?


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's the latter that Vivek mentions above that I was talking about. If you have a button on an interface, and you need to embed some pretty fancy logic into it, to say power on the theater. How do you go about that?
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about changingthe look of a button. And not pre-fab stuff that is more along the lines of 'this is a remote control for device X that's just on the screen', where you have one button that sends one pre-fab command. I'm talking about stuff like I'm doing in my system. I press one button and it powers on those devices that are required for the desired input source, and powers off the others, waits for things to power up, lowers the lights, etc...
> 
> 
> What are the steps required to set up a button in ML to do that?



Yes, that would be very useful to know. At this point, I have almost no buttons in my system that just do a single thing. They all do multiple steps, and commonly have logic behind them.


LathanM - can you also add that to your video? If anyone wants to put some screenshots here, I wouldn't argue against that either.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> File sharing cant be so bad, most POS systems use it with MS access sharing a central database. Most major chain resteraunts use digital dining, posi touch or other similiar software. If they can trust it for buisness I think I can trust it for HA. I dont see on the news about people hacking into outbacks system and ordering several thousands in food and charging peoples credit cards. So the firewall must be doing its job.



Well, for one I'd say that if you are paying multiple hundreds of dollars for a product whose architecture you feel the need to decscribe as "can't be that bad", that probably is an issue to begin with 


But seriously, it's not just about security. Go back and read my posts in this thread. I explained the benefits pretty well I think, and they are the same benefits that cause pretty much any serious multi-user product to be implemented as a client/server architecture. A POS application is pretty trivial compared to an automation system really, so I don't think it's a good example. An automation system is constantly active, with many things going on at once, and with background processes constantly accessing and modifying information in addition to potentially multiple users. You really want a system in which all that activity is managed carefully, and a client/server architecture provides that.


----------



## Dean Roddey

If you watch this video , which demonstrates the creation of a basic interface to do media browsing and playback, I can't imagine that anyone would think that this is too complex to understand. I'm not trying to make it look super-fancy here, since the point is to demonstrate a specific thing, but making it look nicer is just an incremental step beyond what you see here.


I can't remember exactly, but I'm not sure I typed in anything at all during this. And it just ain't that technical or complex.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's the latter that Vivek mentions above that I was talking about. If you have a button on an interface, and you need to embed some pretty fancy logic into it, to say power on the theater. How do you go about that?
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about changingthe look of a button. And not pre-fab stuff that is more along the lines of 'this is a remote control for device X that's just on the screen', where you have one button that sends one pre-fab command. I'm talking about stuff like I'm doing in my system. I press one button and it powers on those devices that are required for the desired input source, and powers off the others, waits for things to power up, lowers the lights, etc...
> 
> 
> What are the steps required to set up a button in ML to do that?



I copy and paste the commands and do it differently than most but I press one button and everything turns on except the projector (either DPI or USB-UIRT or NEC or my lazinesses fault,I could run some CAT5 and be done but I already have an IR blaster there )


Consider this, everything you have already has a plugin and a button assigned so if you copy and paste that button into your MLServeCmd it will do that function, seperate by using pipes, tildas, whatever to serve the function you want. if you want pauses for 2 minutes add a 2 minute pause between some items, If I were a pro-installer I would sit down for how ever long and make a command sheet in Notepad and go that route.


Right now I have 152 Insteon lights that go on ramped and dimmed with one button, how is this done in CQC? With a drop down menu?


In my weather lobby I have the next 10 days, maps, windspeed, basically everything I need to know about the weather in Dallas Oregon, Suva Fiji, and Walla Walla WA. and accomplished this by adding 3 zipcodes, how is this accomplished in CQC? It took about 5 minutes to enter the zips and pick my maps I wanted displayed. We messed with this in CQC in a web meeting and after 30-45 minutes I had a cloud on a blank gray screen with the temprature


I am still waiting on a DVDLobby answer too, not sure what its called in CQC but it was something like media repository or something.


IVB you can start from scratch using a premade scene, I do it all the time. I know it sounds funny but in design mode things move fast and the buttons are already assigned, if you want a button to do something else just cut and paste what else you want it to do


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Right now I have 152 Insteon lights that go on ramped and dimmed with one button, how is this done in CQC? With a drop down menu?



Yep.


Well, I can't speak to Insteon, but with zWave you drop-down/point&click to the "zwave.Command" command, then type in allon (or alloff). Damn, I guess you do have to type in 5 characters.

But, if you were using groups, that would be all point&click. you'd point&click to "zWave.GroupBedroom", then point&click to "True" (or "False").



> Quote:
> IVB you can start from scratch using a premade scene, I do it all the time. I know it sounds funny but in design mode things move fast and the buttons are already assigned, if you want a button to do something else just cut and paste what else you want it to do



Like Dean said, anything can be done with any product. The question is how. I need to wait until LathanM's movie is done so I can see how you build something and put logic into it. I'm really not interesting in having button pollution, where I basically replicate a handheld remote onto a touchscreen. I want compound actions so my HA system is actually automating something.


I'm still not getting how cut&paste gets you that embedded logic - it's different for each person, no way can ML or CQC know what I want to do when I push the BRS.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> I copy and paste the commands and do it differently than most but I press one button and everything turns on except the projector (either DPI or USB-UIRT or NEC or my lazinesses fault,I could run some CAT5 and be done but I already have an IR blaster there )
> 
> 
> Consider this, everything you have already has a plugin and a button assigned so if you copy and paste that button into your MLServeCmd it will do that function, seperate by using pipes, tildas, whatever to serve the function you want. if you want pauses for 2 minutes add a 2 minute pause between some items, If I were a pro-installer I would sit down for how ever long and make a command sheet in Notepad and go that route.



But that's not 'logic', that's a sequence of commands. What if you wanted to check that the projector is already on and therefore not turn it on and not wait for it to power up, or to react to the currently selected source on the A/V reciever and set up the other devices to that source as the default when you power up. That sort of thing.

Here is a video that demonstrates that simple type of 'action' as it is called in CQC, to just string together a sequence of device commands. Here again, I can't imagine anyone would see that as terribly complex, and it doesn't require any typing or cutting and pasting.


And another that sets up a triggered event. It uses the same interface for action configuration.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Right now I have 152 Insteon lights that go on ramped and dimmed with one button, how is this done in CQC? With a drop down menu?



Yes. Those lights would be in a group (or whatever that is called in Insteon-speak.) You would add a command to do a field write, select the insteon driver and the group field from a popup, and select True or False from a poup.



> Quote:
> In my weather lobby I have the next 10 days, maps, windspeed, basically everything I need to know about the weather in Dallas Oregon, Suva Fiji, and Walla Walla WA. and accomplished this by adding 3 zipcodes, how is this accomplished in CQC? It took about 5 minutes to enter the zips and pick my maps I wanted displayed. We messed with this in CQC in a web meeting and after 30-45 minutes I had a cloud on a blank gray screen with the temprature



I'm not sure what went on, but it shouldn't take nearly that long.


The CQC driver only works with one zip code, because the WC agreement clearly states that you will never be polling data for more than one location at once. You could load three instances of the driver, and I'm sure that some folks do, but we limit the driver to one zip code in order to stick to the letter of the agreement.


----------



## Les Auber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LathanM* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Side note: I am amazed that Theta is so unfriendly. They gear is wonderful to use and listen to. I guess they fell into the same trap of adding serial control as an afterthought. I wish one company would come out with a generic module that other companies could buy that handled this sort of thing. They exist for remote controls so why not for other things.



Yep, me too. Rather a surprise when I got into it. You are likely correct. The CB I didn't have serial. Later versions did. Of course the protocol is different from CB II to III. Not sure how different but there are two different protocol documents. The Sony PJ was even worse.


This wasn't intended to be a trick question for anyone. The hardware mentioned was the equipment list when I was doing the ML vs CQC decision so the scenario is real. Three years back it wasn't at all apparent that ML could handle the need. IIRC, at the time ML used a Slink-E to add a couple serial ports through a plugin with fairly basic commands. At the same time CQC obviously could though it did hurt a bit.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But that's not 'logic', that's a sequence of commands. What if you wanted to check that the projector is already on and therefore not turn it on and not wait for it to power up, or to react to the currently selected source on the A/V reciever and set up the other devices to that source as the default when you power up. That sort of thing.



Then I do what I did with my pool and run a wireless serial cable from the PJ ( in the PJs case I can run a wire, then use MLGeneric serial plugin which I call a friend and have him explain what commands I need to put where because Im a newbie and am more interested in getting stuff up and running but take the Denon for example, I have status on it, I know if its on and if I want to turn it off I do and the standby light turns a redish color, unless I want a seperperate light then I make one


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> but take the Denon for example, I have status on it, I know if its on and if I want to turn it off I do and the standby light turns a redish color, unless I want a seperperate light then I make one



I don't mean can you see a light on the screen, but how would you in the logic you are setting up for the button respond to the state of the Denon and do either X or Y based on that state?


----------



## thartigh

Dean, a POS system has alot more info passing than an HA system. Sure an HA system Sends out commands that are complex but only for a second or two. For me I go to a screen when I want something to happen in the house. I dont sit in front of it all day long pressing buttons.


Take my old pizza shop for instance. We had 5 touch screen termianls. Three were used non stop from 9am to 12am 7 days a week. The fourth was constantly used by a delivery driver and the last was a spare for real busy days. These terminals ran on xp and had a single MS access database shared from the server. Each client pc was a front end fo the database.


So 3-4 people were constantly sharing the same database. Not just reading but writing to it as well. Things like entering customer information, taking orders/modifiying them, credit card transactions, and the delivery drivers terminal interacted with mapquest using the caller id info to get an address then gather a map and save it for future use. The local bar/resteraunt here has over 20 terminals going non stop.


I would say they are bit more intense with more traffic than an HA sytem.


You explained it but I dont get it. I have a feeling these two packages are alot more alike than everyone thinks. It appears the terms used by the two may be doing the same thing but sound different.



Cinemar folks, I wouldnt make it sound so easy. The buttons are very easy to add to the screen but getting it to do something takes a little more than point and click. You have to type out the command in either the client or in the server.


For CQC people the logic for a button comes from the command typed in the mlservecmd field. this can either be a name of a mapped command or a full command. When I say mapped, that means that you can create a complex command 1 line long or 1000 lines long and save it with a name like "massive command". Then any client can use the command by just putting"massive command" in the field of the button. These commands can be created in ms excel then imported in the server for global use. I make all commands, even one liners this way so they can be called from any client just by adding the name to a button.


LathenM, please show this functionality if you could since it is a global way of doing things.


----------



## smoothtlk

You don't put the logic in the "button". the button just calls the rule on the Server. The Server has a drop down choice box of "what do you want to do under what conditions".

To add the button, click Library, find the button you want, click Add, go into Edit mode, type {{mynewrule}} and click OK. click Save. Click Launch. Now, when you click that button, whatever you defined in "mynewrule" gets executed. that could be Power on the Denon, Change it to Source 1, drop the Stewart screen, change the position to 2 (but only if 4:3 movie), etc.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> Here is a video that demonstrates that simple type of 'action' as it is called in CQC, to just string together a sequence of device commands. Here again, I can't imagine anyone would see that as terribly complex, and it doesn't require any typing or cutting and pasting.
> 
> 
> And another that sets up a triggered event. It uses the same interface for action configuration.



Nice video, I have mentioned to both camps to Camtasia some demos together and in our CQC meeting I asked if this was done and everyone said no, are you stashing these videos or by me/or someone else asking get this achieved?


And by the way I was confused as heck throughout the entire process but I can see how someone with a week or two might be able to pick things up but lordy you slammed through a couple menues so fast I didnt have time to read all the confusing words, phrases, syntax or what ever all that booleon stuff was.Its ok if you cant see how anyone would think its complex.


I will admit I always had the feeling I was following along and understanding to a degree but maybe you should have shown Part 1 as well. This is exactly what we need to help others understand the differences, was that so hard.


CQC looks pretty powerful and point and click, but it looks like plans to the spaceshuttle in the background and some of that lingo is way over my capabilities. I certainly need the stuff made for dummies with a phone call away solving what the dummy cant figure out.


That tutorial was outstanding, I have a dozen just like it but would be ashamed to have people see me doing such simple stuff


----------



## LathanM

Anything that presents a status can be used as a variable. So in the projector example you would add an automation rule (logic) at the server that says check projector state if off then turn on. The button would call that rule and the server would send the appropriate command. I posted an example of an automation rule a few pages back. You could also do this all in the button itself but it is less portable because all the logic is specific to that button and scene.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Dean, a POS system has alot more info passing than an HA system. Sure an HA system Sends out commands that are complex but only for a second or two. For me I go to a screen when I want something to happen in the house. I dont sit in front of it all day long pressing buttons.



But a real automation system isn't just a passive thing that only does something when you are sitting in front of it. CQC is constantly active. The drivers are constantly talking to devices or internet based sources, and logging information if anything goes awry. Events are triggered and processed. The scheduled event server is invoking operations on it's own. The touch screens are still actively updating information whether you are there or not. And various services are regularly checking to see if configuration information has changed and if they need to update themselves, and they are keeping their contact information refreshed on the master server so that others can come find them when they need to. And this stuff is far more rapid and active than human driven POS activity.


So there's a lot more going on than you might think, and a client/server architecture helps insure that they don't step on each other's toes. When you start interacting with the system, then of course there's that much more going on.



> Quote:
> For CQC people the logic for a button comes from the command typed in the mlservecmd field. this can either be a name of a mapped command or a full command. When I say mapped, that means that you can create a complex command 1 line long or 1000 lines long and save it with a name like "massive command". Then any client can use the command by just putting"massive command" in the field of the button.



For CQC, that kind of thing is done in a CML macro. We currently don't store any of the 'actions' globally. Those are associated with whatever they are configured into (interface widget, scheduled event, etc...) CML macros are inherently available anywhere and you can invoke them from actions. We'll probably add global actions at some point as well, for folks who don't want to write any CML.



> Quote:
> These commands can be created in ms excel then imported in the server for global use. I make all commands, even one liners this way so they can be called from any client just by adding the name to a button.



But can you add logic? And if so, how do you test that logic if you are writing them in excel?


----------



## smoothtlk

yes, just as lathanm said, and same as my post two up that I was typing while Lathnam posted










Dean, yes, same in mainlobby. Again, all of your information on MainLobby is old and outdated.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thartigh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dean, a POS system has alot more info passing than an HA system.



Contraire my friend, it's not even close. You're assuming someone has to be pressing a button. That's the least of it.


----------



## QQQ

Oops, I see Dean beat me to it.


----------



## thartigh

Dean, MarkP's example could be accomplished several ways.


The button knows the status based on a global variable in the server. It might be:

receiver on=ON or OFF


So say you have a button that turns on a receiver. The buton when pressed can either send a command or call a command map from the server. (Both do the same thing) It can change colors to show status by placing the variable in the label field of the button {{receiver on}}. It will can also display the varaiable value ON or OFF if you have the setting checked.


The command run from the button can do other things in a couple of ways.


1 Without doing anything in the user interface you could just add a rule to server. the rule would look at the variable "receiver on" if it is equal to "on" do nothing. If it is equal to "off", then check to see if it is dark outside, if it is, turn on the theater lights, if it is not, shut the curtains then dim the lights.


2 call a command map. The map is a global macro command that tells the receiver to turn on, then runs a conditional command to see if the variable receiver on = on, if it is equal to "on" do nothing. If it is equal to "off", then check to see if it is dark outside, if it is, turn on the theater lights, if it is not, shut the curtains then dim the lights.


3 run the command directly from the button itself. The command would look exactly like number 2 except it only runs from that button.




Agreed that alot is going on the backend. I wasnt thinking of that part.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> And by the way I was confused as heck throughout the entire process but I can see how someone with a week or two might be able to pick things up but lordy you slammed through a couple menues so fast I didnt have time to read all the confusing words, phrases, syntax or what ever all that booleon stuff was.Its ok if you cant see how anyone would think its complex.



The media one was a later video in the series, and assumed that you had already gone through the previous ones where those things were discussed in more detail. I wasn't showing you that video to teach you how it works, but to show you how point and click the process is.



> Quote:
> Anything that presents a status can be used as a variable. So in the projector example you would add an automation rule (logic) at the server that says check projector state if off then turn on. The button would call that rule and the server would send the appropriate command. I posted an example of an automation rule a few pages back. You could also do this all in the button itself but it is less portable because all the logic is specific to that button and scene.



That's not quite the same really. Your logic needs to know if the projector is on or off because you are going to react to it. For instance, if you want to change the status of interface elements based on that status, you will have to react to that status locally within the interface itself. For instance, in CQC, often visual elements are not drive by device status but by the logic of the interface widgets themselves, and that is often driven indirectly by device status. So you really need to have logic capabilities in the actual client side stuff as well.


And I don't really think you would want to have to implement every piece of conditional logic globally and keep up with what is what. In many cases you want the logic to be contained to the button or whatever else kicks it off because the logic really is specific to that thing. You might have a number of simple variations of such things that you would do in various places on an interface and having to set them all up as global things would be pretty painful.


Having global ones is good, don't get me wrong, but it's not really an answer for what I'm asking about.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> yes, just as lathanm said, and same as my post two up that I was typing while Lathnam posted
> 
> 
> Dean, yes, same in mainlobby. Again, all of your information on MainLobby is old and outdated.



I don't think it's really the same. Having to set up all logic as global operations that you invoke from a client wouldn't be practical IMO. There could be hundreds of them in a large system, and many of them would be trivial and should be just done in the invoking entity.



> Quote:
> 3 run the command directly from the button itself. The command would look exactly like number 2 except it only runs from that button.



OK, well that implies the button itself can have logic, which doesn't sound like what was said above. If it can, how do you configure that logic in the button, relative to the examples in the CQC videos above?


----------



## thartigh

Dean, thats the beauty of global stuff. You enter the info one time. Then everything eles can access the same info at the same time. All clients see the same thing.



Again, when each group uses a term it means something different.


A plugin within mainlobby not only controls the device but may also check its status. Then based on the status it automatically creates/updates variables for global use with no user interaction. So if I send a "on" command, the plugin sees the status change and automatically updates the on/off varaible.


----------



## thartigh

Dean, it gets entered into the mlservecmd field of the button. This is done manually and is why I said it isnt so point and click.



That is the other beauty. You can make most things global to be used by all or for little stuff do it direct from the client.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IVB, As MarkP mentioned, if you don't like the look of the existing screen, you just go into Edit mode (1 button push), Click on the button (2), click on the Library button (3), Select a new button (4), Click Close (5), Click Design (6), Click and drag the button (7), Click Save (8), Click Launch (9) Done.




Okay lets assume I have 15 buttons on the screen and need to move them all lets say 20 pixels to the right..can I make a bounding box around them like I normally do when selecting multiple objects in windows and then just click and drag and place them 20 pixels to the right? Okay so I dont like where I just positioned those 15 buttons can I easily make a bounding box around them and move them up 6 pixels and to the right 4 pixels or do I need to move them all individually?


How about if I have 26 letters for the alphabet I need to put on the screen and would like to test the spacing between them all..first I want to try to arrange them left to right all in one row with the exact same space between each..can I do this easily?


Lets go one step further and put them in two rows of 13 for a smaller screen size...can I just grab 13 buttons and drag them below the first row and then individually align and space each set of 13 buttons?


If I need to nudge graphics in pixels increments up/down/right/left can I do this easily or must I use X/Y coordinates?



We all have things we need to be able to do and while these features might mean nothing to some users they were VERY important to me after using common graphics tools for years with the same features...while I used Mainlobby none of this was possible so if I had a keypad from one template and wanted to copy/paste to another I could do that but after that every single button had to be moved individually..I couldn't highlight a group of buttons and move them all at once..even windows 3.1 could do stuff like that without asking for x/y coordinates.


**I'm not sure the MLGenericSerial you mention David is the same one you had last year...I recall the one you had was a POS with no support whatsoever..from what I recall the guy who made it got in a fight with Mario or something and disappeared so it had no support at all...you can search the forums and probably find posts of me asking for help with it and was pretty well ignored.


Perhaps you have a new one but the one last year was not viable to write the driver for something like the Krell HTS at the time and Bob who works for you confirmed this and had to custom write the driver for me...a friend was wiling to write it for me but when I told him he needed to sign a NDA he sorta laughed and didn't seem interested so I hired you guys and you made the driver for $750 and it took about 2 weeks.


I'd be surprised to know at this very moment you have a new MLGenericSerial driver or whatever you call it and its 100% free and can be downloaded and any user can easily write two-way plugins..if this was the case you would think you guys would have hundreds of two-way device drivers created by users if it was that simple


----------



## LathanM

I am not following you on this one. The buttons in ML are just that buttons. They send a command when pressed and/or respond to events when variables change at the server. What more do they need to do?


What is the difference between storing the logic at the button or on the server? Just because they are stored globally doesn't mean they are called globally.


----------



## thartigh

ripper,

no on the bounding box, but you can hit shift then select all then move everything togeather.


not sure what you mean by 26 letters and the spacing.


yes, you could grab just 13 and move them. then deselect all and move them individually.


Yes, you can move buttons or groups of buttons one pixel ata time. just use the up, down, left, and right arrow key.


The xy positioning is great if I am trying to line up several buttons I can just drag them close to where I want then use the arrow keys to move in one pixel increments. Or just make sure all have the same x cordinate and they line up.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> I am not following you on this one. The buttons in ML are just that buttons. They send a command when pressed and/or respond to events when variables change at the server. What more do they need to do?
> 
> 
> What is the difference between storing the logic at the button or on the server? Just because they are stored globally doesn't mean they are called globally.



Well, one issue was that as a practical matter, you could have hundreds of simple logic operations, many of which would only be used by a single button. Having to have the logic separated from the button in that case would be very impractical in a large system.


The other is what if you want to interact with the actual interface itself? That requires that the logic also include the interface elements, not just status of devices or things stored in the server.


Here is a for instance... In my user interfaces, I have a button to browse music or to browse movies. But I only have one 'Now Playing' button. That button looks at the status of a device (the active source on the A/V processor) and the loads one or the other overlay and upates an image at the top of the screen that reflects the currently active overlay (a speaker for music or a folder of film for movies.) So I don't need multiple buttons because the logic both deals with device status and interacts with interface elements.

My main interface with movie browsing overlay loaded 


Actually, it does more than that. It will check the A/V processor, and based on whether it is set set up for music or movie, it will then check the status of the appropriate player. It only loads the Now Playing if something of that type is actually playing. But the important thing is that the action understands the system in which it is running (because it's not just a global thing) and can provide point and click configuration and can interact with the interface elements themselves.

Code:


Code:


// See if we are on DVD source in the audio processor
If System::Equals($(HTAudioProc.InputSrc), DVD) 
   // Make sure the changer manager has a valid cookie
   LocalVars::SetVariable(LVar:Cookie, $(ChangerMgr.CurColCookie)) 
   LocalVars::GetLength(LVar:Cookie, LVar:CookieLen) 
   If Not System::Equals(%(LVar:CookieLen), 0) 
      CurOverlayImg::Set Image(\\User\\Blue\\Icons\\Movies) 
      Main Overlay::Load Overlay(BlueFantasy_CurMovie) 
   End
Else
    // No, see if we are on CD
    If System::Equals($(HTAudioProc.InputSrc), CD) 
       // Make sure that Zoom is running
       If Devices::DriverIsReady(MediaPlayer) 
          CurOverlayImg::Set Image(\\User\\Blue\\Icons\\Audio) 
          Main Overlay::Load Overlay(BlueFantasy_CurMusic) 
       End
    End
End


Here is a more extensive example. Here I implement, purely in terms of the CQC interface system, a login screen to password protect an interface. The same can be done to implement security system logins and so forth. It's all point and click stuff.

Password Protect Video 


So you can do this kind of fancy local interface logic and build these types of interactive screens that completely fit within the look and feel of your overall user interface system.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In my weather lobby I have the next 10 days, maps, windspeed, basically everything I need to know about the weather in Dallas Oregon, Suva Fiji, and Walla Walla WA. and accomplished this by adding 3 zipcodes, how is this accomplished in CQC? It took about 5 minutes to enter the zips and pick my maps I wanted displayed. We messed with this in CQC in a web meeting and after 30-45 minutes I had a cloud on a blank gray screen with the temprature



Actually the weather in CQC is for one location as per the user agreement with the source of the data..I'm not sure you know this but I'm pretty sure Cinemar is still scraping weather data from Yahoo and I won't even debate the legality of them doing this and then selling a commercial product based on data they are scraping from Yahoo.


The XM radio plugin also works the same way...it queries XMRO servers and scrapes the data from an .xml file and relays it to the MLServer which of course is not approved by XM Radio...for the fancy coverart you see displayed it doesn't magically come from a Cinemar database but actually if you watch the traffic going in and out of your clients you'll probably see it hitting akamai servers a thousand times a day.


My guess is cover art for the XMlobby plugin is being STILL downloaded from Amazon by their driver visiting the site and submitting the artist name and extracted coverart...I won't call it illegal but I can assure you Amazon would NEVER allow any company to just query their data thousands of times per day and download it and have that other company resell it in a commercial product.


**It will be interesting to see how easy you do weather or how many locations you could have shown should Yahoo all of a sudden take action against Cinemar for using their data in a commercial product and reselling it.


BTW does the DVDlobby plugin still have the problem when it automatically queries you disc and the coverarts it downloads have copyright stuff watermarks on some of them? Perhaps someone is hinting that THEY own the rights to that DVD coverart?


Its all nice and pretty when things just work and magically populate data but its quite another when you realize how the data is being gathered and if its being done legally and WHEN your fancy plugin could break because someone violates a TOS or infringes on copyright.


I'm pretty sure nobody from Cinemar will comment about all this or where they scrape their data from or the legality of such or the possibility said plugins could die at any moment


----------



## smoothtlk

thartigh, a lot of those things that Ripper speaks about were ML2 things that were addressed in Mainlobby 3 releases that I don't believe he has tried. I am not going to read carefully into all of what he wrote, because it is an exhausting argument that has gone on now for gotta be over a year now around and around again.


But thanx for your attempt at clarity.


----------



## IVB

Oy, I go away for a few hours on my stressful job (which I still like, LathanM







), and you're all so deep in it! I am so lost on that logic stuff it's not funny.


With CQC, you can have either:

1) Global rules, aka triggered events, that are centrally stored and accessible by any template.

2) Button-level logic that's bound to a given template. Please note that I didn't say "client", because all clients in CQC access the sample template through the magic of client/server.


It would royally SUCK if I had to stick with #1 for every dang thing, as I'd have dozens upon dozens of rules. Why bother stashing all my CD button logic, DVD button logic, etc, or if you prefer zone-based, then my LivRoom logic/FamRm logic, all in a central place? I'd want them in the same location as my buttons, that is inside my template, so I can keep related items together.


The option of having both is why I say that CQC is a true client/server architecture in the strict interpretation of the words, where a machine can either be a "client" or a "server" based on what it wants to do. In #1, it's a dumb-terminal letting the server run it all. In #2, it's a distributed control mechanism where either the "client" or the server does the work, based on how you set it up.


I keep hearing about how ML is a real client/server app, but that logic sounds like dumb-terminal to me. What types of logic or processing is possible on the client side inside your template?


Can someone please help enlighten the stressed out but dumbfounded one?


----------



## IVB

oh, btw, david/mario - how would you feel about sending me a trial dl of ML3/DVDL/CDL/WL? If things are so different, I don't want to mislead folks by bad data. I have some downtime coming up in a few weeks, I could play around with it then. It would strictly be on a standalone laptop, no hardware connected, but I wouldn't see why I need hardware to understand CD/DVD/Weather/rules...


Email is the same as the one in my Cinemar profile (i think - hasn't changed in years).


(no, i'm not switching, don't anyone flip out, I just don't feel comfortable in my current position of ignorance about *Lobby V3 given all the claims that the world is different now)


----------



## smoothtlk

IVB, you don't have to worry about it. it just works







Relax, think happy thoughts.. go to another place at another time....










You can have commands and if/ then logic in a client stored command (not recommended, but sometimes for easy stuff, this is easier), or, you can have commands kept in command maps and within the rules engine (server side). for that matter, you can also have multiple servers, with multiple command maps and rules engines (no much need for this, but it is possible).


what is the "magic" of client / server? Mainlobby is a client / server application as well.


for applications that deal with media and PC hardware, the client is very important to connect to "stuff" locally. That can either be an "agent" like our MLWMI plugin is (runs on each client, or on the server) and the Mainlobby client so we can do things like streaming video and directX connection to local hardware. but at the end of the day, it just works.. it's not completely different than CQC, but different names for things but they all have to follow security and facts of PC and networking technology that they both are based on.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thartigh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ripper,
> 
> no on the bounding box, but you can hit shift then select all then move everything togeather.



Yeah I guess that works fine to move *everything* on the screen



> Quote:
> not sure what you mean by 26 letters and the spacing.



26 individual images...I would like to put the first image on the left side of the screen and the last image on the right and align them all and have the spacing equal between them all



> Quote:
> yes, you could grab just 13 and move them. then deselect all and move them individually.



So I am assuming if I have 52 buttons I need to ctrl+click until I have 52 buttons selected and then I can move them...if I do 40 and accidently click the screen I have to start over correct? This is what I mean by having the ability to use bounding boxs for m,ultiple selections..we all know ctrl+clicking massive amounts of things is a pita



> Quote:
> Yes, you can move buttons or groups of buttons one pixel ata time. just use the up, down, left, and right arrow key.



I do not recall this being possible when I used the product but I guess this takes us back to the ctrl+click thing and having to select all the buttons to move and then if you change you mind 5 minutes later the same must be done...I am aware shift+A can select all but if you have 75 buttons and only want to move 52 or something I think you would get the idea of whata pita this would be having to control+click a group of buttons that large repeatedly if you tweaking a layout and aligning things.



> Quote:
> The xy positioning is great if I am trying to line up several buttons I can just drag them close to where I want then use the arrow keys to move in one pixel increments. Or just make sure all have the same x cordinate and they line up.



X/Y coordinates reminds me of the 80's







...while the X coordinate will align on one plane and the Y on another its still a real pain to set equal spacing between many buttons unless Cinemar has now fixed this problem? If you buttons are all aligned on the X plane thats all fine but how do you calculate the spacing from one point to another...do you look at the Y position between the first and second button and realize it 19 pixels and then to adjust the other buttons you need to make sure the Y changes 19 pixels for every button after that on the same plane...surely someone understands this madness


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> thartigh, a lot of those things that Ripper speaks about were ML2 things that were addressed in Mainlobby 3 releases that I don't believe he has tried. I am not going to read carefully into all of what he wrote, because it is an exhausting argument that has gone on now for gotta be over a year now around and around again.
> 
> 
> But thanx for your attempt at clarity.



So between ML2 and ML3 the screen scraping methods have changed?


I'm pretty sure *many* of the things I mention were not addressed in ML3 David..thats why I am asking but many times you seem to avoid answering so I ask again....


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> You can have commands and if/ then logic in a client stored command (not recommended, but sometimes for easy stuff, this is easier), or, you can have commands kept in command maps and within the rules engine (server side). for that matter, you can also have multiple servers, with multiple command maps and rules engines (no much need for this, but it is possible).



Why would you not recommend storing an 'if X load interface Y else load interface X' stored in the actual interface that is invoking it? Or is that you cannot actually store any such logic in the Flash interface itself and therefore they must be stored externally? Therefore locally stored means only available on that one client?. Maybe that's the difference.


For us, since it's our own data, we can store the commands directly in the interface widget that invokes it, so it's not like the command is stored locally or globally in that case. It's in the actual interface file itself and comes along with it. So when you load the interface to any client, any embedded logic is actually in the interface itself and there's no issue with where it is stored.


Anyway, please explain what 'locally stored command' means in ML.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually the weather in CQC is for one location as per the user agreement with the source of the data..I'm not sure you know this but I'm pretty sure Cinemar is still scraping weather data from Yahoo and I won't even debate the legality of them doing this and then selling a commercial product based on data they are scraping from Yahoo.
> 
> 
> The XM radio plugin also works the same way...it queries XMRO servers and scrapes the data from an .xml file and relays it to the MLServer which of course is not approved by XM Radio...for the fancy coverart you see displayed it doesn't magically come from a Cinemar database but actually if you watch the traffic going in and out of your clients you'll probably see it hitting akamai servers a thousand times a day.
> 
> 
> My guess is cover art for the XMlobby plugin is being STILL downloaded from Amazon by their driver visiting the site and submitting the artist name and extracted coverart...I won't call it illegal but I can assure you Amazon would NEVER allow any company to just query their data thousands of times per day and download it and have that other company resell it in a commercial product.
> 
> 
> **It will be interesting to see how easy you do weather or how many locations you could have shown should Yahoo all of a sudden take action against Cinemar for using their data in a commercial product and reselling it.
> 
> 
> BTW does the DVDlobby plugin still have the problem when it automatically queries you disc and the coverarts it downloads have copyright stuff watermarks on some of them? Perhaps someone is hinting that THEY own the rights to that DVD coverart?
> 
> 
> Its all nice and pretty when things just work and magically populate data but its quite another when you realize how the data is being gathered and if its being done legally and WHEN your fancy plugin could break because someone violates a TOS or infringes on copyright.
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure nobody from Cinemar will comment about all this or where they scrape their data from or the legality of such or the possibility said plugins could die at any moment



Ummm Im not sure about all that but Im pretty sure they ripoff weather.com just like CQC does, the only difference was I didnt have to do anything in weatherlobby but in CQC we fought for 40 minutes trying to log in with fake emails and such, still not sure what all that was about but it was hokie


Im pretty sure my cover art isnt comming from amazon because their cover art looks like dog balls and has crap all over it, this stuff is clean and has spectacular resolution and info, unlike Amazon and Meedio crap. Hopefully someone can clear this all up. Where does CQCs auto coverart come from?


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Ummm Im not sure about all that but Im pretty sure they ripoff weather.com just like CQC does, the only difference was I didnt have to do anything in weatherlobby but in CQC we fought for 40 minutes trying to log in with fake emails and such, still not sure what all that was about but it was hokie



You weren't trying to log in with fake e-mails. Here again, I think that Cinemar is not following the license agreement. If they ship the system with a pre-fab access key, instead of making you get one, then they are required to meet certain interface requirements (regarding logos) that I doubt that they meet, as we cannot (not to mention they aren't supposed to access more than one location at a time.) Therefore, since we cannot meet those interface requirements (because you create the interfaces however you want), we don't provide you with a Charmed Quark access key, we just let you get your own and then it's between you and WC as to how you build your weather interfaces.


The WC requires that they have a WC logo on their interface, but given that you can remove it any time you want, they are not meeting the requirements and could have their key yanked. We asked about this and was told that our type of application wouldn't pass muster because we cannot guarantee the WC logo on the screen.


The cover art for music comes from Windows Media Player/Microsoft as does the metadata (who in turn get it from AMG.) For movie arte we go to Google Images. The movie metdata comes also from AMG by way of WMP/MS.


----------



## LathanM

FYI: I am going to have to postpone the videos for awhile. Real life is calling. Just once I would like to have a snowstorm not take down 4 clients at once. Did I mention how much I looove waiting around for SBC/Ameritech or whoever they are calling themseves this month.


----------



## thartigh

Dean, if you press a button from a client the server knows what client sent the command. Therefore you can use the clientname variable to display or not display certain things. You can acheive the same thing you are with the above method.



So you mean that every scene has to be configured with CQC? like if I send a command to control theatertek in room1 I have to specifically program each buton to do that?

With ML you can just have one set of global commands. Then based on any variable or clientname direct the command to client.


Read carefully everything cinemar people have posted. With variables you can do anything you can think of there is no limit.



IVB, Do you store a copy of every song you own on every client pc or do you have them stored in one location? Same theory. I think you are very confused about how cinemar works.


Ripper, if the info comes from yahoo then why is everything coming from weather.com along with there logo?


As per the licensing thing with one zip code... Thats the beauty of variables. The plugin has a variable that tells it where to look for weather info. So if you have a button for a favorite city say chicago. When pressed it changes the zipcode variable then the weather plugin updates all of its variable automatically.


or


you can have a scene that has numbers like a calculator. When pressed it adds to a varaible mlweather_enterzipcode=XXXXX so you can manually enter the zipcode of choice by typing it in. once entered all of the variable change (about 150-200) to the selected zipcode.


Isnt that only using one zipcode at a time? Plus two scenes can handle that for all clients and any client can view any zipcode in the world from a button push.


You really should get your info straight before implying they are infringing on license agreements. Give it a rest dude!


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> So you mean that every scene has to be configured with CQC? like if I send a command to control theatertek in room1 I have to specifically program each buton to do that?



No. The button in the interface would contain the actual command and it would be in the interface itself. Anywhere you run that interface it would come down with the interface itself. The Play button on that interface would just have a trivial one line command to send the play command to TheaterTek.


So the difference is storing things that are specific to the interface in the interface vs. storing them externally in some global location. Though the latter has it's uses (and CQC can do that with CML macros), it would be very impractical on a large scale to do every little conditional that a button might want to invoke as a globally stored thing.


The example I gave above where I put the command into the interface to load this or that interface is something that is only used there by that one button. Having to keep it externally and remember what commands do what would not be very user friendly to me.



> Quote:
> As per the licensing thing with one zip code... Thats the beauty of variables. The plugin has a variable that tells it where to look for weather info. So if you have a button for a favorite city say chicago. When pressed it changes the zipcode variable then the weather plugin updates all of its variable automatically.



But that doesn't work if you have more than one interface in the home. If I'm looking at the weather, and you change it from another machine, then you just changed what I'm looking at.


It would only work if you do the data access from teh client itself, which would not pass muster because you could be looking at multiple zips at once.


----------



## thartigh

Ripper,


yes you would have to select each individually and it is a little bit of a pain.


Xy cords are fully to date and used everyday by engineers and designers. Heck, all cad programs reuquire it. Its the only way to define an object in space. But I agree that selecting a group of buttons and tellings it to space equally is very nice.


If you are laying out a screen assume you woud have an idea on paper before you start. Each button needs to be edited either way so when you add the button you plug in the cord directly. So if adding multiple buttons I could place one and remember the cord. x=25,y=30. then for each added button you can set the x to 35 and the y to 30.


This would give you a button spaced 10 pixels apart in the X and aligned in the Y.


----------



## QQQ

Dean,


You know your stuff but you are incorrect on this one. Youy are making a mountain out of a molehill. Well, actually it's bigger than a mole hill but not nearly a mountain. Both Crestron and AMX have a GUI design tool that is separate from the programming tool. There is no logic at all on the button (or very little depending on how you want to look at it). It's a very simple matter. Every button has an identification number. Crestron calls it a "join #' and AMX calls it a "channel #". So you have your programming code that you want the button to invoke. So you give the button and the code sequence the same number. THAT'S ALL there is to do! Let's suppose I have a command that I want to be able to invoke from every page. I write the code and part of that code is "trigger when button xxx is pressed". The button # xxx invokes the code. So I put button # xxx on every page. (and I could also trigger the invoking of the same code based on logic, time of day, whatever).


Now, I like your way of doing things better because it makes it a little bit easier on me as a programmer. But it's no more powerful, it just allows me to work a little faster and probably make few less mistakes (because I don't have to make sure my button numbers match the code number) so I have to debug less.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> If you are laying out a screen assume you woud have an idea on paper before you start.



I would definitely disagree with that. Using the CQC Interface Editor is more like using Illustrator or whatnot. I do the design and layout directly in the editor because it makes it easy to do, and allows you to make changes easily on the fly and align things and move things and so forth.


I will generally have an idea for a particular overally kind of look before I start, techy, soft, very glossy, very minimalistic, but that's about it. I just pay with things in the editor and find something that appeals and then go with that.


----------



## thartigh

Dean, yes you are right. If I want what you describe I can transfer the variables to client specific ones. Then each pc is viewing its own zip code.


works either way.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LathanM* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am not following you on this one. The buttons in ML are just that buttons. They send a command when pressed and/or respond to events when variables change at the server. What more do they need to do?
> 
> 
> What is the difference between storing the logic at the button or on the server? Just because they are stored globally doesn't mean they are called globally.



Exactly Lathan, as noted in my last post there is no difference.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Dean, yes you are right. If I want what you describe I can transfer the variables to client specific ones. Then each pc is viewing its own zip code.
> 
> 
> works either way.



But I don't think it's allowed under the license. We at least try to enforce the license rules, though we cannot completely since people can load multiple driver instances. And I think that they are clearly playing loose by providing a company access key and not strictly enforcing the logo requirements.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Same theory. I think you are very confused about how cinemar works.



Boy, i'll agree with that.


Let me try something simple, then move on to the advanced stuff.


Let's say I'm listening to XM, but I want to change a CD. First, I press the blue source on the left for that zone.











now, this screen comes up.











Once I select CD, it automatically sets the source to CD and loads the CD interface.


All that logic is stored in the button, b/c that's where it makes sense to store it. Sure, I could put it on the server. Hell, I could put it in a text file sitting up on the web too, but that's not the point - the button is a self-contained unit.


I suppose if I wanted to, I could also put this in the triggered events manager, and kick it off that way. CQC can do that too. But I still feel like I'd be "polluting" my events/rules manager with stuff that is inappropriate, and increasing the complexity of the rules administration far beyond what is needed.


If all you do is some simple rules stuff, then I suppose you wouldn't be overly worried about piling on in your rules manager. But I've personally got some pretty serious stuff in there, and I want to keep it as orderly as possible. Using it to have rules for screen transitions, while entirely possible and stable, would add unecessary complexity.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Now, I like your way of doing things better because it makes it a little bit easier on me as a programmer. But it's no more powerful, it just allows me to work a little faster and probably make few less mistakes (because I don't have to make sure my button numbers match the code number) so I have to debug less.



As I just posted above, the question to me is less of "power" - hell, I could use duct tape and scissors and it would work.


The question is more one of "put stuff where it belongs", so the overall complexity and hence brittleness of a system is reduced. Although in CQC you can certainly do things the ML/AMX/Crestron way of centralizing all logic, why in gods name would you put ALL logic there, esp that which would never actually be used by any other template?


Like I just posted, it just seems silly to put logic that would never be shared by other templates into a central location where it'll just make things messier. Keep it where it belongs, and reduce the complexity of your central repo to just that which should be shared.


----------



## thartigh

If I were to install a clients system ml would be easier and take a quater the time. I can make one gui and one set of commands. All are sent where they need to go by a simple client varaibale.


In the end I have less work and one easy set of command to manage. Once finished you copy them out to all client pc's via a batch file (from a button if you want)


The customer sees the same end result and spends less money and I have more time to spend on that customer and others that want to add to there system.


----------



## QQQ

IVB,


Sorry, but you just aren't getting it. It's a "pointer", that's all it is. In Dean's system the button points directly to the code so to speak. In ML's system the button points to a button that IS the code. You are creating an issue in your mind about "button logic" versus "server logic" that is making this much more complex and a much bigger issue than it is.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thartigh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You really should get your info straight before implying they are infringing on license agreements. Give it a rest dude!



Perhaps maybe David should comment on where the weather data comes from and how they are able to allow you to query weather from multiple zip codes without violating TOS.


Or maybe you should visit this page http://weather.yahoo.com/ 


Notice the weather channel logo? Notice the zip code entry box?


Perhaps David or Mario can confirm if I am wrong in saying their weather plugin when I used it visited Yahoo weather and sent a http request to the zip code form and then waited for the reply and scraped the data? perhaps my info is straight and I do know what I'm talking about...lets see how David or Mario explain this if they even will..perhaps they have changed things but I have a very good feeling things work the same as they always have 


As for what I said about XM Radio..David or Mario will confirm 100% when using the *online* option in the plugin that indeed their plugin is accessing a XMRO server, why do you think you need to enter your username/password in the plugin..obviously so it can query XMRO and extract the data..I need not explain this in detail if for some reason you cannot comprehend what I am saying but I can confirm 100% that the plugin could break at any moment and is not something XM Radio says is approved...do you really think they'd approve of thousands of requests to their servers eating their bandwidth while another company makes profit?



> Quote:
> You really should get your info straight before implying they are infringing on license agreements



Actually my info is straight and I am more than aware of the laws regarding the use of copyright images and reselling them in commercial products..in fact I consult for many of the companies who's logos Cinemar resells as graphics packages.


While the companies do indeed give you permission in many cases to use the images for personal use I am not aware of them giving anybody permission to download all their logos and then touch them up and put them into a Flash Library to resell them and make a profit...if you somehow think this is approved by all the networks you see on DirecTV you have no clue whatsoever


Don't you think if all the DirecTV channel logos and XM channel logos could be legally used and resold in a commercial product that those companies would provide pristine versions to better advertise things...or do you really think instead they say "Just go download them off the web, feel free to touch them up and also feel free to resell them and make a profit off them"...perhaps you can explain why their is no pristine FOX network logo in your collection...I can explain a few reasons if you would like me to elaborate 


Perhaps know what your talking about before telling me to give it a rest...better yet lets wait to see what David or Mario will reply to any of this..I have this funny feeling they will totally ignore answering anything about scraped data and copyrighted images...enough said.


----------



## thartigh

IVB, with ML I would have your same screen 1 to select the source then it would auto flip to the cd scene controlling the room that it came from. If I want a different room I would have a button cycled through different zones.


or I couls do it your way, but...


GUI 101... make scenes that require minimal button presses.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thartigh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I were to install a clients system ml would be easier and take a quater the time. I can make one gui and one set of commands. All are sent where they need to go by a simple client varaibale.



Ok, now that's an uneducated response, and you call me biased?


So far everything you've said can be done by CQC. You can absolutely do server-side logic.


You also have the option of doing client-side logic.


So, in my entirely uneducated and ignorant perspective, having a choice is better than not having a choice.


If you're a pro, you've already got a baseline template set built up that you're just "cut+pasting", to use MarkP's terms. If you don't, well check out the site in my sig and download mine, and then you do.


So please, i'm all ears, i really am: Why would using ML be faster? What choices does it give you that CQC doesn't?


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> IVB, with ML I would have your same screen 1 to select the source then it would auto flip to the cd scene controlling the room that it came from. If I want a different room I would have a button cycled through different zones.
> 
> 
> or I couls do it your way, but...
> 
> 
> GUI 101... make scenes that require minimal button presses.



Not asking how you'd redesign my flow, asking how you'd replicate my flow.


When you get to GUI 201, let me know, i'll be waiting for you. It's where I'll show you that if you have a wifi/portable panel, automagic buttons no longer work and you need to code things a different way.


----------



## Ripper99

BTW thartigh...remember last month Mainlobby users complaining about the length of time it took for your weather images to reload? I'll wait for anybody from Cinemar to explain *why* they took so long to load.


----------



## LathanM

Ah, a break in the clouds, what did I miss...Ok.


IVB, The selection form an portable tablet is dependent on how the user want to access the different functions. So in my case all my fixed panels are designed specific to the area they are in and I have options deeper in to control other rooms. On my portable the interface is more generic for now. I just got delivered an RFID dev kit and with any luck I can use it to automatically switch the scenes specific to the room it is being used in.


----------



## Les Auber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dean,
> 
> 
> You know your stuff but you are incorrect on this one. Youy are making a mountain out of a molehill. Well, actually it's bigger than a mole hill but not nearly a mountain. Both Crestron and AMX have a GUI design tool that is separate from the programming tool. There is no logic at all on the button (or very little depending on how you want to look at it). It's a very simple matter. Every button has an identification number. Crestron calls it a "join #' and AMX calls it a "channel #". So you have your programming code that you want the button to invoke. So you give the button and the code sequence the same number. THAT'S ALL there is to do! Let's suppose I have a command that I want to be able to invoke from every page. I write the code and part of that code is "trigger when button xxx is pressed". The button # xxx invokes the code. So I put button # xxx on every page. (and I could also trigger the invoking of the same code based on logic, time of day, whatever).
> 
> 
> Now, I like your way of doing things better because it makes it a little bit easier on me as a programmer. But it's no more powerful, it just allows me to work a little faster and probably make few less mistakes (because I don't have to make sure my button numbers match the code number) so I have to debug less.



I can see how that would be a pain on a complex system. I can also see how for a predone basic system it could make things easier. If play button xxx on a generic DVD interface always joined to the play command xxx on the loaded DVD driver it could be very easy to assemble. All that's needed is not having drivers of different types sharing join numbers. Of course as soon as you add a second DVD transport the whole thing would blow up and make big headaches. 'Tis never easy.


----------



## LathanM

Adding a second source isn't a problem. Add a variable marker to the command that says the source number. This is how I am selecting my different dvd changers and even locking out movies on active changers. One thing you do have to do is think a little ahead but that is part of the fun of DIY, some of your most brilliant solutions come form early miss steps. That was one of the reasons I went to custom interfaces in each room.


----------



## LathanM

Design 101: Designing for Usability Primer
http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/f...?p=60424#60424 


Design 201: Interfacing Mobile Users

Comming soon


----------



## thartigh

Ripper, Sorry, I havnt dug that deap. I just saw the links from WC and assumed thats where all the data came from. Guess we will have to hear from cinemar on that. Again, sorry!


IVB, Lathan explainded it well. I no longer use portables cause they were a pain having to worry about charging. But I had two and always had them default to the room they were docked in. Mainly because they were used in the dock more than anything else.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Adding a second source isn't a problem. Add a variable marker to the command that says the source number. This is how I am selecting my different dvd changers and even locking out movies on active changers. One thing you do have to do is think a little ahead but that is part of the fun of DIY, some of your most brilliant solutions come form early miss steps. That was one of the reasons I went to custom interfaces in each room.



The CQC action system supports those types of variables. They are commonly used to have a single interface be able to control multiple instances of a device, by having the read/written fields be accessed indirectly via a variable that is set by the button that loads it or set in the particular host's environment (which can be used for things like setting the home zone for a hard mounted touch screen and so forth.)


They are also used, if you watch the 'how to password protect' video I posted above, to pass information between interfaces and for use locally within a particular action for scratch values that are tossed when it ends.


Because of the ability to easily do logic in the actions, you don't have to limit them to just something like 'replace this with the number of the zone'. You can react to their value and build up complex names of things you want to access for a given zone, for instance.


But they don't refer to some central database. They refer to whatever you want them to refer to. It's more of a programming language paradigm than having tokens that refer to a central database of items.


----------



## IVB

1 touchscreen per room?


Damn. You guys must have fantastically understanding wives. I have one wifi that's kept in the MBR (usually), and one for the kitchen. I project the CQC InterfaceViewer directly on the plasma for the H/T room. I am straight-up banned from buying a 3rd one to keep in the family/living/etc rooms, so I got 2 docks - once for the MBR, one for the FamRm. I just leave it in the closest dock.


I also have a wife and inlaws who are anti-techie and don't like automagic things as a rule. Given that I have 2 fixed and 1 portable, rather than have templates that behave differently I made them all with the 2 button paradigm (once to change source, once to select room).


Hence, I need to have that additional logic.


----------



## LathanM

IVB, try living with a graphic designer







Hiding Winterms and reworking scenes because the drapes changed is no fun. The list goes on and on. Anything to keep the WAF high.


Take a look at some of the smaller machines like the Q1 for a portable solution. The screen is 800x480 and I think 8" diagonal. I am not running one but I am using a couple screens the same size. One of the better $125 eBay finds.


If I get the RFID stuff working I will pass it on.


Back to waiting


----------



## thartigh

actually I put them all over.


1 - garage-15" elo for movies as well


1 - bar on the deck


1 - hottub on the deck


3 - greatroom - kitchen counter, coffee table, enrty.


1- master bath


1- master bedroom


1- guest bedroom



Overall I would again say that both acheive the same thing with a different approach. It just depends on which approach you like. I dont like CQC's approach after learning about it. But thats me, others appear to love it. That is the great part about having a choice. For me the debate is over, I learned what I needed.


But that wont leave me saying that cinemar is better. Just because I think it is doesnt mean anything. To MEEEEEEEE they are both equal and one way or another I can control what I want wether you use a 3rd party plugin or whatever. Both have ways of controlling and doing the same things.


Guess its all part of advertising, everybody says they have the best burger in the world but that dont mean its true.


----------



## smoothtlk

RFID? LathanM, which solution? BTW, a MainLobby 1-Wire plugin is just about done which will also support iButton which works great for authentication.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thartigh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ripper, Sorry, I havnt dug that deap. I just saw the links from WC and assumed thats where all the data came from. Guess we will have to hear from cinemar on that. Again, sorry!



No problem Thartigh and no need to be sorry..the data is from the Weather channel indeed and perhaps Cinemar has changed the way the plugin works now or perhaps they pay a ridiculously large licensing fee to be able to resell that data in a commercial product and as well query multiple zip codes..as far as I know Weather Channel does not give permission to do this...Perhaps Cinemar will answer this.


----------



## LathanM

The kit is by SmartCode. I haven't started playing with it yet to know what it will do. I got it at a discount from one of their sales reps when a client was looking at using it in their warehouse. I have big plans for it, I just need the time to start playing.


----------



## Dean Roddey

BTW, the kind of thing that Smoothtk did here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...87#post9050187 


Is not right. That is outright advertising. I'll get involved if CQC is already under discussion or someone asks a question, but he's done this kind of outright solicitation of customers in threads that have nothing to do with ML recently. It's not right. I've not complained about it, but if it continues I would have to.


----------



## Mike_W




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No problem Thartigh and no need to be sorry..the data is from the Weather channel indeed and perhaps Cinemar has changed the way the plugin works now or perhaps they pay a ridiculously large licensing fee to be able to resell that data in a commercial product and as well query multiple zip codes..as far as I know Weather Channel does not give permission to do this...Perhaps Cinemar will answer this.




Will someone from Cinemar please respond to this issue? There has been a question about the legality or licensing agreement with using the Weather Channel data and a simple response will clear this up.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW, the kind of thing that Smoothtk did here:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...87#post9050187
> 
> 
> Is not right. That is outright advertising. I'll get involved if CQC is already under discussion or someone asks a question, but he's done this kind of outright solicitation of customers in threads that have nothing to do with ML recently. It's not right. I've not complained about it, but if it continues I would have to.



Dude, that's nothing. There was a thread with folks mourning about the demise of Meedio where he came in and said "yes that's sad. But MusicLobby3 will be out in 2 weeks, which along with ..... does much more than Meedio". 


Or perhaps this thread, where he said the following, without actually mentioning he works for and is an investor in Cinemar.



> Quote:
> Bubbamil,Cinemar's TVLobby is what I use as a simple TV Guide to send IR change channel commands to the Tivo.
> 
> Positives is that is integrates well with rest of Cinemar's MainLobby products.
> 
> Negatives is that it doens't have access to the Tivo's recorded program list. I still use the Tivo menu for that.
> 
> 
> But for very quick "what's on TV right now or in the next two hours", I love TVLobby.



And folks wonder why I have an issue with the Cinemar attitudes...


----------



## Ripper99

David has been advertising like this for a long time while others have to pay advertising fees to do the same...go figure.


I pointed out to Mario the other night about the link in his signature that says something like "Click on My HT" and it is a direct link to the Cinemar website..in the post I also mentioned he shouldn't post direct links to his products if he doesn't pay for advertising like other dealers here.


Here is the post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post9029038 


I'm not the AVS Police but I'm sure sooner than later David will be warned about highjacking threads and advertising for Cinemar and Mario will be asked to pay for advertising if he chooses to use a direct link to his website in his signature..I've been a member of AVS for years and have seen others banned and warned for doing the same thing.


Notice in smoothtlk's older posts he does not have "Cinemar, Inc." in his signature and advertises for Cinemar almost trying to fool people like he has no affiliation with the company.


Mike_W...concerning the "a question about the legality or licensing agreement with using the Weather Channel data and a simple response" ...I'd be very surprised for David to explain this to anybody..I've brought it up many times when he is boasting of Weatherlobby features and the same sort of question is always avoided for whatever reason.


----------



## Mike_W




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mike_W...concerning the "a question about the legality or licensing agreement with using the Weather Channel data and a simple response" ...I'd be very surprised for David to explain this to anybody..I've brought it up many times when he is boasting of Weatherlobby features and the same sort of question is always avoided for whatever reason.



I actually thought he'd address this since I asked him directly to address it, but I think you're right. He hasn't posted anything more in this thread since I asked him directly about it and he's had activity on AVS Forum after I posted.


Mike_W


----------



## Dean Roddey

Notice that he also carefully ignored my invitation to post a list of his 'hundreds' of things like the sprinkler scheduler that ML has that makes it superior 


BTW, a quick search turned up these within the last month:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8977379 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8636977 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8617116 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8870745 



All of which seem to be bending the rules on self-promotion, since they were not in response to previous mentions of the product or answering any questions. They were unsolicited postings pushing the product.


Not a huge number or anything, so I don't want to make a big deal out of it. But fair is fair, and I'm not doing that. Or I don't remember doing it, but if anyone remembers such a thing or finds it, certainly feel free to note it.


----------



## Mark P

Wow, guys, seriously.


instead of posting stuff like whats cluttered the last page, report it to Alan Gouger and be done with it, if this is being read by more than the same 6-10 people that have followed along from the beginning than Cinemar is gaining sympathy points from appearing to be consistantly attacked and questioned about their business practices/models, the ole "sour grapes for whatever reason" situation and we know the attacker never wins in negative campaigning unless theres valid negativity where people are dying or losing their 401K.


Most probably see it like me, The initial poster has 23 posts, all in this thread, hmmm, may be legit, may be the same shilling that runs rampant for dozens of businesses, lets see, what moniker do I choose for this email account. Regardless if this is going on or not and Im sure its not, salesmanship starts in pronto. Personally I see no difference between post #6 of this thread and any that were linked to ( by the way, nice interface on #6, I missed that first time around, elegant and I have a room that would look sweet in!)


I guess I am trying to say that you guys that are complaining and linking to Davids salesmanship may have legit technical arguments but in the end you look like whiners grasping for straws after a battle I felt was actually going good ( FINALLY) with demonstration videos and actual examples of why this is good and thats good. Dean, let your followers and supporters do the talking in matters like this, your best approach is sticking to examples and videos and not finger pointing, I felt you did a pretty decent job of that so far but........the last page things are slipping a little, owners are happy people and dont talk about the competition.


I can clearly see Rippers point of view and I was there with him last month, I felt I had got alot of trash because nothing worked and he paid alot more than I did, I get POed if I pay $1 for something thats worthless. The point about weatherlobby/Coverart is a good one and would be interesting to get a response to but if both are doing the same thing, careful what you wish for, in some peoples eyes just because someone doesnt sell the product to automatically do something but gives you instruction on how to do the same thing in a program you paid for seems like grasping. I am not positive about this but I think I was told that the coverart finding device MLserver uses is a subscrition type deal that Cinemar pays for or something and I thought it was AMG http://www.allmovie.com/ or something like that. If this is true than thats professional stuff and far surpasses a collection that looks (scrubbed) and different sizes and resolutions and such. Otherwise I can relate to feeling ripped off but so far all my complaints but 2 have been addressed and I am in contact with a guy who writes his own plugins for Cinemar and feel he may be a solution to incidental problems.


I wish I had the free time (and would make the free time) to learn CQC if the following questions were answered.


Can CQC turn on 200 Insteon devices at once, dimmed and ramped, the owner says yes and this may be something that happened this week but as of last week the developer of that plugin said no, CQC could only poll 20 devices and long macros werent achievable with the PLC because CQC is designed to not accept things that go on for long periods of time and this is a benefit I wont go in to. Maybe I didnt understand but as of last week the things I want to do with Insteon were not available using CQC, granted the plugin writer contacted me and said he would strive to make it work, but I need this stuff before Christmas (hopefully today). And Im not one that wants to be a burden with constant questions to the developer, I just want stuff to work.


Secondly, are Deans scenes (post #6) downloadable and editable, if so can I see a couple more.


How long would it take someone like IVB from scratch to setup the Media Repository, no fudging just an educated guess and add an hour, nothing is worse than being told something takes 4 hours and it takes 3 days and still does not work. If it honestly takes a week or a day or a minute please be fair because time is valuable.


Is there anything buggy in CQC thats a known issue thats being addressed but theres no guarentee it will ever work, maybe theres dozens of these but Im the kind that wants to know up front and would have the highest respect for honesty here. It could be anything and things Im not even thinking of but everything has a problem and are there members of CQC that are having the same problem getting something to happen and it just doesnt seem to be friendly, An example is in Cinemar I can pan my cheaper security cameras but not the expensive ones, I dont see this as a huge problem yet and dont have time to debug it until later but Mario at Cinemar said send him the camera and he will test it and see if its a manufacterers item that needs addressing. I know, I know, I know, get the stuff and spend 10 hours with it but seriously, I dont have 10 hours to waste, this isnt a game or a hobby, I dont enjoy tinkering for the sake of tinkering, I want to buy something, install it, follow specific instructions and if that means 10 hours to achieve final result thats fine as long as it works. In other words instead of telling me whats so great about CQC, tell me whats wrong with CQC, people seem to have no troubles telling us whats wrong with Cinemar 1-2 years ago


----------



## Les Auber

Mark P,

Roger that. While squarely in the CQC camp I've refrained from commenting because it added nothing.


As to CQC bugs I know of no actual software type bugs in the released version. Either from personal experience or following the CQC forum. If you read on the CQC forum don't mix released with beta.


If CQC has a shortcoming it's much the same as ML in two areas. One is lack of hardware available designed for control by PC based systems. This is getting better all the time but still lacks the stuff available to packages like Crestron, AMX or even Elan.


Second is available drivers(plugins) for hardware/equipment that you want to control. I've no doubt that CQC is powerful enough to control your Insteon equipment but the driver needs to be written for it. When that will be done I can't say. ML appears to be in the same boat. Recall my question about Theta gear. Typing in who knows how many lines in a generic serial controller and hoping it worked in the end is hardly user friendly. Could ML control Theta or my crazy Sony PJ? Most likely but the plugins would again probably take several weeks and I don't know what the cost would be. Remember the drivers are written by people with different skill levels, various equipment versions and varying quantities to control. It's hard to write for 200 Insteon devices when you only have 5 to work with and for version y devices when you have version x. ML seems to have this same challenge, witness your security cameras. I don't know about ML but the CQC driver database is expanding rapidly and is typically free once it's written. Again the only systems I know where this probably wouldn't be an issue would be AMX or Crestron. And if the equipment was obscure it still might take a while.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> instead of posting stuff like whats cluttered the last page, report it to Alan Gouger and be done with it, if this is being read by more than the same 6-10 people that have followed along from the beginning than Cinemar is gaining sympathy points from appearing to be consistantly attacked and questioned about their business practices/models, the ole "sour grapes for whatever reason" situation and we know the attacker never wins in negative campaigning unless theres valid negativity where people are dying or losing their 401K.



Respectfully, I disagree completely. I've reported it several times, and I tire of being exposed to the shills. In addition to reporting it, it is my obligation as an end-user to point out what the morals and ethics are of companies.


To me, software quality in of itself is only half the answer. The attitude and behavior of the owners is the other half. I have no intention of getting into bed with someone I don't trust. If they don't treat forum owners with respect, how will they treat me? Will they be open & honest? Or will it all be marketing fluff and vaporware? If they don't care about these rules, how do we know they really care about reselling network logos and XM online without permission?


I'm an end-user. I'm not interested in winning anything. I don't really care what package you go with. I'm following the golden rule, and I would certainly hope that someone else would warn me about unethical behavior by a company before I align with them.


If this evokes sympathy by you towards them, so be it. But now you're going in eyes wide open.


----------



## QQQ

Wrong. The thread has been dragged down with this bickering and it especially drags down the owners of the companies when they engage in it. And for Dean to chastize another is rather funny. Dean conducts himself professionally here but there was a time when he was a shameless shill for CQC. Most of the stone throwing has come from the CQC users.


If it's an issue address it to the moderator. The thread was actually starting to get fun/useful before this latest nonsense. It's as if once ML was no longer being bashed for their lack of power some other route of attack had to be developed to go after them.


----------



## IVB

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. And to say "wrong" smacks of sanctimonious-ness.


I reiterate - as an end user, I want to know what the behavior is of a company before I buy into them. And that desire is just as legitimate as your opinion.


----------



## QQQ

Wrong.


----------



## Mike_W

I'm still waiting for Cinemar to respond to the licensing agreement they have regarding the Weather Channel and reselling logos. This issue was raised here and it's very important for potential customers to know if Cinemar is violating any laws and/or licensing agreements. Cinemar was very active in this thread, but once this issue came up they are now AWOL. That really says a lot about what the answer probably is, but I'd rather get the facts instead of speculating.


A simple satisfactory response to this will put this issue to bed.


Mike_W


----------



## IVB












I suppose that was the best retort you could have possibly had, cuz god knows you didn't have a leg to stand on.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Can CQC turn on 200 Insteon devices at once, dimmed and ramped, the owner says yes and this may be something that happened this week but as of last week the developer of that plugin said no, CQC could only poll 20 devices and long macros werent achievable with the PLC because CQC is designed to not accept things that go on for long periods of time and this is a benefit I wont go in to.



I don't think he understood what you meant. He's talking about keeping up with the current state of all those hundreds of dimmers. Because of the speed of Insteon, getting the initial values of all those dimmers would take a long time. If you don't need to know each individual state, then that's not an issue. You would just set up a group that includes them and send them on or off commands.


I explained to him how to get around the 20 unit limit. He was trying to do what almost all CQC drivers do, which is that before they come online they have all of the device info that they make available. But in the case of a really slow system like Insteon, where the might be a lot of modules, he can't really do this. He can let the fields come online in the normal process of round robining through them. Until each polled module get's its initial poll, it will remain in error state in the drive.


He's also slightly wrong about things that go on for a long time. He can do it. The issue is that clients can time out trying to talk to the driver if it goes off for 15 minutes or whatever trying to get all the initial values during connection, because the driver is locked during that connection period. And that makes sense because you don't want a client to hang for 15 minutes waiting for it. This is almost never a problem since very products have the kinds of issues that X-10/Insteon have of potentially taking many minutes for a driver to get in sync with the state of the state.



> Quote:
> Secondly, are Deans scenes (post #6) downloadable and editable, if so can I see a couple more.



Mine aren't but plenty of other folks have made theirs available. Here are some threads were people present their stuff:

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=2370 
http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=2875 
http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=3032 
http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=2473 


Those are the ones that just happen to be towards the top of the User Systems part of the forum.



> Quote:
> How long would it take someone like IVB from scratch to setup the Media Repository, no fudging just an educated guess and add an hour, nothing is worse than being told something takes 4 hours and it takes 3 days and still does not work. If it honestly takes a week or a day or a minute please be fair because time is valuable.



I can do one in half an hour (not including of course ripping all the CDs and adding all the DVDs.) But the actual CQC part of setting up a repository involves (with my approximate time required):


1. Adding the driver (5 minutes or less)

2. Adding the content or importing it from JR/DVDP if you use those. If importing, then it takes about 10 minutes. If you are starting fresh, then that's not CQC related time.

3. Creating the interface (less than an hour certainly, not counting one-time newbie spinup time of course.) It involves dropping approximately 7 to 10 widgets onto an interface and configuring them.

4. Making the player start up to play the selected media. A (A few minutes)


You can get fancier than this and do media preview, or preview on a poup where the user can commit to playing or not, create custom images and and so forth. But once you've done the above, these are incremental steps forward.


If you are a newbie, then of course (as with any such program) you'll have to spend some time getting used to the product. But once you've done that, setting up a browsing interface is pretty trivial.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Wrong. The thread has been dragged down with this bickering and it especially drags down the owners of the companies when they engage in it. And for Dean to chastize another is rather funny. Dean conducts himself professionally here but there was a time when he was a shameless shill for CQC. Most of the stone throwing has come from the CQC users.



I wasn't trying to throw stones. I thought I was being kind, by pointing it out instead of reporting it, which would have been quite legitimate, and they can get pretty seriously spanked for it, which is why I don't do it anymore. I've not complained, and I said I hadn't and wasn't trying to make a big deal of it. I didn't think of how it would come across within the context of of things being posted, since I wasn't really thinking of it in those terms.


Anyway, I appologize if it come off overly harshly, since it wasn't intended. The harsh response would have been to send that post to Dave Bott, who gets seriously bent out of shape about that stuff. I'll stick to technical issues henceforth.


----------



## QQQ

I wasn't referring to what you pointed out re: the licensing issue, rather the links to a bunch of threads of them promoting which is a waste of your time when you've got a great product like CQC







.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Respectfully, I disagree completely. I've reported it several times, and I tire of being exposed to the shills. In addition to reporting it, it is my obligation as an end-user to point out what the morals and ethics are of companies.
> 
> 
> To me, software quality in of itself is only half the answer. The attitude and behavior of the owners is the other half. I have no intention of getting into bed with someone I don't trust. If they don't treat forum owners with respect, how will they treat me? Will they be open & honest? Or will it all be marketing fluff and vaporware? If they don't care about these rules, how do we know they really care about reselling network logos and XM online without permission?
> 
> 
> I'm an end-user. I'm not interested in winning anything. I don't really care what package you go with. I'm following the golden rule, and I would certainly hope that someone else would warn me about unethical behavior by a company before I align with them.
> 
> 
> If this evokes sympathy by you towards them, so be it. But now you're going in eyes wide open.



Would you rather some Cinemar user come in and start hollering " If Dean dies tonight, CQC is out of business or is stuck at the point it sits at right now,this may be fine and Im not evn sure thats true but just because something was true 6 months or a year ago doesnt mean its true now. I still dont understand the zipcode deal in full detail but I live at 3 different residences, is it illegal to see the weather at those residences, or is it illegal to see the little cloud icon I see on CQC scenes. I sort of skimmed the explaination because I am interested in videos, demonstrations and facts about how software performs and gets the job done. I think I remember it being that Cinemar profits from weather.com by using their clouds and sun icons that Cinemar automatically loads and in return Cinemar is swarming weather.coms servers with its paying customers. If CQC has a million customers tomorrow and all the customers have the same clouds and temperatures on their clients, where is that info coming from? Do you buy a weather station and run a serial cable to your PC or something?


Im pretty sure I understand that the coverart issue is completely wrong and AMG is used to "scrub" that info, not sure but I think Cinemar paid AMG for this service for their customers and if true means Cinemar is taking money made from selling service and adding major improvements, I like that business model because the end result seems so professional as compared to the crappy Amazon art, Where does CQC users "scrub" all their stuff from? Im only asking because it seems Im supposed to care, while we are at it can we explain where all these Dolby Digital, DTS, ProLogic labels are coming from and are they bought and paid for. The other issue is ripped cds on servers, hopefully CQC has included in their software a safeguard against these being used in their product to prevent unethical temptation and we all know us gangsters that choose to try Cinemar and lower our ethical behavior to such low standards as to rub shoulders with such filth and scurge as Dave cant help ourselves, so would switching to CQC wash away all our sins and gain us entry into the pearly gates of automation bliss?


I think anybody who gives a rats pooper knows all about shilling and wallering around mealy mouthing companys to gain an advantage but more often than not it backfires and makes people shy away.


Construction and General Contracting, this is so rampant its almost sickening what customers are told, in my last days I was hearing all sorts of nasty feedback that all my unethical ways and untrusty professionalism was causing my downfall so stay far away as possible. In reality I was bought out by a very wealthy individual that wanted a personal General Contractor to handle all his business as a matter of taste and trust and never have to worry again therefore becoming more productive in making more money and passing off projects with a sentence over a phone call. The amount of times I heard the words bid rigging have dropped to zero and thankfully I will never hear the BS again.


----------



## Dean Roddey

In the spirit of full disclosure, I'll give you my own critique of CQC.


1. The tools are still more disjoint than they could be. We will be looking to integrate them more as we move forward. I'm not sure if we want to end up with a single uber-administrative program or not. But certainly some of the tools could be integrated into the main administrative program.


2. We could do more during installation to do a 20 Questions thing and auto-generate some configuration to help bootstrap people up.


3. The interface designer, though very powerful, needs some more features such as an Illustrator style widget palette to make some types of operations be easier.


4. No UPB support right now. Weak Z-Wave support. Most folks are doing lighting via Elk/Omni or using a higher end lighting system, so we de-prioritized that stuff for 2.0. We'll get back to it post-2.0, and some Z-Wave improvements will happen in 2.0.


5. The new media system, though an enormous step forward from having to use J.River/DVDProfiler, still has a ways to go. It was a huge effort and as always we couldn't get it as far as we'd like in step 1. It'll be refined over the next releases.


6. The interface designer only allows you to open one interface at a time. This can be a serious PITA sometimes, and will be addressed in the next release. It was on this list for 2.0 but there wasn't time.


7. The interface designer doesn't have any search and replace capability, i.e. to find every reference to field X.Y and replace it with Y.Z and that kind of thing. So making broad wholesale changes across multiple interfaces is harder than it should be.


8. In the hands of non-technical people, TCP/IP and firewalls and such can sometimes be a problem. We need to provide some better diagnostic tools to help them figure out what is wrong when some system configuration change accidentally knocks a node off the CQC network.


9. We need better support for video cameras. Using a Web browser widget works, but it would be better to have more direct support.


10. We need a better multi-zone story for folks who don't use multi-zone hardware, i.e. who want to use a pure software solution. We'll address this soon.


11. The Interface Designer could provide some more helper functions, to auto-generate some common scenarios such as a keypad or a media browser. They wouldn't have any particular look, you'd then apply whatever look you want to them which is easy to do.



Those are the well known non-trivial lackings that we all know about, but which just haven't been addressed yet due to time constraints. They are all on the hit list. Some, like the tools integration and the media system, will continue over a few releases since they are large things and have no final end point really since they can always be further refined. The others will mostly get taken care of in the next release.


----------



## Mark P

Wow Dean!


Nice comeback late in the 4th quarter ( or hopefully early in the first).


I completely respect this kind of post beyond belief because it warns me of what to expect before proceeding or knowing what to expect during frustrating moments where I seem to be chasing my tail.


That video you showed us earlier, do you have a collection of these somewhere and is that you doing the videos or someone else? If someone else do you appove or comment on the way they proceeded though to accomplish results?


Why are your templates not available do they give out some trade secret or do you just like being unique? Can you purchase your templates. I do rather like #3 link you provided with some slight color adjustments but it seems pretty close to something at a higher level.


The Insteon thing is basically the need to turn on large groups of lights with ramped dim levels. One button needs to be capable of almost 200 switches. This Theater alone will have close to 50 zones and basically relys on lighting as its decor,











maybe I should re-ask Johnathon where hes at. Hopefully I will be testing Cinemars new update very soon, I can get it working through macros now but that causes slight problems in here.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> That video you showed us earlier, do you have a collection of these somewhere and is that you doing the videos or someone else?



I know you asked Dean, but I also know he's knee deep in 2.0 right now, so rather than have you wait on an answer: Dean's doing all those himself (so far). Here's the CQC 2.0 Beta Website. 


If you go to the Learn tab, you'll see all the various new stuff, incl the 2 areas for videos. You'll also see a TableOfContents for what is on the docket for the immediate future.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> That video you showed us earlier, do you have a collection of these somewhere and is that you doing the videos or someone else? If someone else do you appove or comment on the way they proceeded though to accomplish results?



Yes, that's me in all my glory. I don't know if I approve of them or not, but I did them. I'm not always showing the fastest way to do something, since they are tutorials that are for people starting off. You can't see me using hot keys so I don't use them in the tutorials, for instance.



> Quote:
> Why are your templates not available do they give out some trade secret or do you just like being unique? Can you purchase your templates. I do rather like #3 link you provided with some slight color adjustments but it seems pretty close to something at a higher level.



Mine are just not well designed for someone else to use, at least without me yanking some stuff out of them. In my case, I make pretty heavy use of CML based logic, since that's easy for me and I can do very complex stuff easily. That makes it not a very good pedagogical starting point for most folks.


Once I get out of the 2.0 release mode, a couple more weeks, I'll see about creating a version of them that would be a good starting point for someone else.


----------



## LathanM

Dean,


Excellent disclosure of what you feel are improvements you would like to see. I kind of wish we could have gotten this for all products back on page 1 instead of page 10.










I don't speak directly for ML, I just run the app but I will give my list of things I would like to see improved or changed in ML:


1 - Improved licensing model. The present model is an activation that is tied to a specific machine. This is fairly common but I wish there was another way, like a dongle option or a developers license. Being mobile makes it tough to debug from the road. (Not their issue but one of my complaints of software in general)


2 - More variable transparency. As plugins are updated more of the internal variables are exposed opening new options and this is a great thing. I may actually be able to build the round DVD browser that has been bouncing arround in my head for awhile.


3 - PNG support (more of an Adobe/Macromedia gripe). This one isn't too much an issue for me but it would be wonderful for beginners making their own graphics. If not teaming up with a program like PNG2SWF and offering it as a $10 addon. They can make them now as jegs without any problem but jpegs don't support transparency.


4 - Global search and replace in the app itself. All the scene files are text based so they can be modified using any text editor. The problem is all the links in them default to absolute references. For 99.9% of users this isn't a problem but on my Citrix enabled network this is a bit of an annoyance. I have a script I run against the files to clean up any of the Citrix unfriendly stuff so it isn't a big deal.


5 - d-pad/number pad alignment. The default alignment tools are ok but could be improved. It would be nice to have a few expanded buttons in the system for these common elements. I have been making my own and importing them but still it would be nice to have an off the shelf option.


6 - Larger data entry fields. The interface for adding server commands to a button is large. The one for adding client side commands isn't so I find myself building commands in an external editor and pasting them in. This for me is a bit of a throw back to when I was learning Quark and would c&p articles into columns.


7 - Auto screen scaling in the client. This is a a tough one and I don't even think it is possible without some major quality sacrifices. Right now I design scenes at the native resolution of where they are going to be displayed. Recently I have been designing scenes for others and the 4:3 to 16:9 conversion is a pain. I guess it is the designer in me but looks count.


8 - No seperate server viewer. Any changes to the server have to be made on that system. I run headless and do it over VNC but it would be nice to have a native server app that I could install on my laptops or Citrix server.


9 - All server pallets are displayed in 1 window. The server supports multiple pallets for variables, rules, plugins, etc. All of these can be tiled, overlapped as normal but you can't drag them outside of the main server window.


10 - Not enough printed doccumention. I have said this about other products and I will keep harping on it. Put instructions in print or at least in a way that is easy to print and keeps formatting. The main books and major plugins are there and that is perfect. The problem is smaller plugins like the horoscope or timer aren't. These require you to click on the pluging to see what it can do and what its command syntax is and print them from there. Having a way to print them all at once would be so much better. There are times I step away from my computers







.


11 - Examples and templates that better mimic systems (mainly v3). V2 came with a few templates that were seperate scenes to get people started and show off some of the options, sort of a system primer. This was great. I got to see alot of possibilities and it opened the door for users to easily design everything from top to bottom. In v3 the v2 templates are still there but you now have the new v3 matser template. It is an excellent piece of work and gets new users off to a running start but it dives into some complex stuff too quickly. Server side scene control, multilayer design, macro building, but the install tutorial guide hasn't been updated to take advantage of these things. Years of IT work have taught me that updating instructions sucks and no one wants to do it but. I would have loved to see out of the box templates for small, medium and large systems. Say a small system template preconfigured for IR control, a medium that adds lighting and the present large.


12 - More sharing in the community. The ML community is pretty responsive if you ask a question, replies come quickly. What I would like to see is users to post more of their solutions to problems. I know coding is a personal thing and some stuff doesn't port well from system to system but so what. Put it out there anyway. For new users this is a good way to show what can and is being done. (Not a ML issue a user issue, so I am a free as in beer, software hippie)


13 - tighter intergration of plugin command sets. Each plugin has its own command set and allot of the commands have to be entered by hand. This can lead to silly mistakes that make for tougher debugging. Having a way for the system to autocheck for these kind of things would save time. Say a typing autocomplete or command shorthand to speed things up.


14 - More button states. Right now each button has 2 alpha layers, one color and 1 transparency. This makes doing state changes easy until you have a tri state device. For example I have a light on one scene that changes from red to yellow to green. To get the 3rd state I have to add a button over the top of the first. It may be possible to get other states but I haven't found a way and it hasn't been important enough for me to ask.


15 - No autosave in the client designer. It it is a bit of a double edged sword since if things are going well and you forget to save you are out all the work but if things are going the other direction you don't destroy a perfectly good interface. I normally get arround this with seperate production and qa workspaces.


Beyond the above I haven't found any real showstoppers in the system. Automation rules are simple, the macros builder lets me do what I want and I can enter any command quiclky as plain text without being forced to use a wizard or 10 menus.


There is one more thing but it is just a general complaint:

Manufactures, stop doing silly stuff with serial control and publish the ****ing protocols! I have had it with begging, pleading and in some cases stealing (don't ask) manuals that explain how the pieces all fit together. If you don't want people to try an control it in ways other than with the supplied remote , don't tempt us with the port. You can't let a skunk go off in a room then tell use we didn't smell it.


----------



## QQQ

So Dean confesses and now he's loved? Man, what a bunch of horsesh*t. OK, let me give this a try. I beat my wife and use cocaine. NOW who's the one with integrity? Try to top that one Dean!


----------



## QQQ

p.s. and now i see Lathan decided to get it on the act too. Perhaps Dean could start a new trend here. First Bill Gates could do something like this with Windows. And when he's done with the list in 2027 Steve Jobs could post his response.


----------



## LathanM

No, I am still firmly in the ML camp. But for once someone asked a straight question instead of the usual one up questions we see on forums. I said it at the begining pick one and try it you will find stuff you like and don't like.


Half the grips on my list are due to years of being thrown every kind of oddball, poorly doccument, vaporware software/hardware solution you can name and being told to make it work by Monday at 8:00am. I guess when you have seen enough crappy environments it takes more to shake you than others.


Oh, and carring a bucket of water helps










2027...Aren't you being a little nice here? Maybe when his children get done with can have Jobs ' kids start his list. Both have commited enough crimes against software for 2 lifetimes.


----------



## smoothtlk

LathanM, I would agree with the majority of your critiques of MainLobby. Many are in progress for a fix or new feature.

Many of your concerns are of "old stuff" that is now being refreshed and DOCUMENTED. There are a lot of products that Cinemar has and we are working pretty much around the clock on addressing your valid points - and a whole bunch more.


thank you for taking the time to post that. We will be taking the time to compare your list with our hit list to make sure it is comprehensive.


Regarding Data - we are preparing a response that is a little more detailed than our existing response which was posted several times to the same point that was brought up (by the same person) a couple of weeks ago. that response was essentially - we don't discuss potential legal issues on public forums. And that we purchase a lot of data, more than I believe any of our competition does today. We just had a meeting at EHX with two more data providers that will allow us to produce some very cool new products that leverages their commercial data. We are primarily a software company that is passionate about protecting both our intellectual property as well as others. We would rather pay for quality data, then strip it from an unreliable (or illegal) one or a non robust one like our competition is using.


Let's continue the more quality side of the discussion that this thread had hints of.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> We would rather pay for quality data, then strip it from an unreliable (or illegal) one or a non robust one like our competition is using.
> 
> 
> Let's continue the more quality side of the discussion that this thread had hints of.



If you want to do that than would you explain with real details what "you are paying for quality data verus non robust one like our competition is using" really means? Unless you already did earlier and I missed it in which case just tell me so and I will re-read.


----------



## smoothtlk

QQQ, that will come soon.


----------



## IVB

A Cinemar co-owner tossing a grenade and then promising satisfaction "soon" when asked to back it up. If you really were interested in having a quality discussion, then you'd never have made the following statement. "We would rather pay for quality data, then strip it from an unreliable (or illegal) one or a non robust one like our competition is using." until you were ready to back it up with facts.


Don't bother posting a reply to me QQQ/MarkP/etc, I'll resume muttering to myself because I know all of you don't understand my frustration with that type of behavior and attitude.


----------



## QQQ

Wrong. Wrong insofar as I do understand and this time you are right







. In fact I was about to post that I was coming around to your way of thinking. I found the posting of the statement as a "matter of fact" and then the answer "that will come soon" when I asked for specifics to be ridiculous and totally inappropriate (EVEN if he believes it's true it totally ridiculous - he posted a statement that made it sound like it was an established fact and then it comes out that he's referring to something that does not even exist yet and he won't tell us about it). If I was choosing between the two products he'd have just given me a good reason to swing towards CQC.


----------



## smoothtlk

IVB, I thought this (HA) was suppose to be therapy to help get you over your stressful day job. Geees....


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Regarding Data - we are preparing a response that is a little more detailed than our existing response which was posted several times to the same point that was brought up (by the same person) a couple of weeks ago. that response was essentially - we don't discuss potential legal issues on public forums.



Yes it usually not good to discuss these things till AFTER you fix the problem otherwise someone could have evidence against you 




> Quote:
> And that we purchase a lot of data, more than I believe any of our competition does today.



I'm not sure what you purchase but I know for fact your XM radio logos you sell are actually downloaded from their website and touched up..I'd hate to show you a pixel comparison but I'll save you the "potential legal issues"...you would have none at all if you gave away these logos for free..you are selling them and DO NOT have permission and have been selling them for quite some time at a good profit.


Your Network Logos advertised here that you sell

http://www.cinemaronline.com/guigrap...rklogosus.html 


If you haven't grabbed them from Lyngsat.com logo archive and edited and instead purchased rights to use all logos it seems very odd you do not have the full set of logos for all channels and many have small flaws that appear on ones freely downloaded from the Internet..its one thing to give them away for FREE but when you resell them you know as well as I do that you may have "potential legal issues" and I am surprised you have been selling them this long 



> Quote:
> We just had a meeting at EHX with two more data providers that will allow us to produce some very cool new products that leverages their commercial data.



Ahh yes..but this has *NOTHING* with what I had mentioned before(Weather/Logos), I can understand you'd hate to admit in a public forum that my words are indeed true and for now you'll remain silent and avoid "potential legal issues"



> Quote:
> We are primarily a software company that is passionate about protecting both our intellectual property as well as others. We would rather pay for quality data, then strip it from an unreliable (or illegal) one or a non robust one like our competition is using.



haha..other companies will protect their own data David and enforce IP rights should you choose to resell data/logos that you have no permission to resell..I've mentioned this to you I don't know how many times and if you continue you will have legal issues..giving the logos away for free is fine but when you resell them and have not paid your dues you know as well as I do what will happen...the licensing rights are not at all cheap especially when you are reselling them for profit.



> Quote:
> Let's continue the more quality side of the discussion that this thread had hints of.



Yes...and thank you David for being so upfront with those who asked about the Weather Channel Data and how its been acquired the past year or so in Weatherlobby and resold..Its almost comical how you slithered out of answering anything about it because you know I'm right and you do have "potential legal issues" if you even comment on how you *REALLY* get it and then resell it...it would be a totally different thing if the plugin was free but once you start profiting....enough said


I'm sure nobody will be holding their breath waiting for your "detailed response" to all this..Is the response being prepared by your lawyers? Or perhaps you are waiting for Weather.com to reply and let you know what it costs to do what your doing now 


**Enough said by me on the issue..I won't make David admit anything publicaly and save him some embarrassment, his reply is enough to show he has something to hide until he can fix it...back to the topic at hand.


----------



## robertmee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IVB, I thought this (HA) was suppose to be therapy to help get you over your stressful day job. Geees....



Classy


----------



## Glenn_Danzig

Not to divert from the exciting issues of Logo usage legality and endorsement rules and disclaimers...


Why is Homeseer not even mentioned in this thread? Is it so inferior to CQC & ML that it doesn't warrant discussion?


I haven't used any of these programs, so forgive me if this is an ignorant question. I'm in the early planning stages for my system.


-GD


----------



## smoothtlk

Homeseer is an excellent application. They deserve every mention in this thread. I suspect that one of the major reasons that it isn't as prevelent on AVSforum, is because AVS is mostly about Media, and Homeseer historically was most about Home Automation with less emphasis on media control. Cinemar grew up within AVSForum initially as media control and is now fully into HA. Homeseer has an excellent active forum of their own and their customers get most of their HA "fill" staying right there.


There are half a dozen CQC fans that are very active posters on all forums and spread the good word every where with emphasis on AVS and cocoontech.


But, back to your initial question, IMHO, Homeseer has the best "back end" for automation in the business. Their "front end" or user interface is not very glitzy or polished for presentation in most theaters. MainLobby IMHO is probably the best "front end" in the business and integrates very smoothly with Homeseer. Homeseer isn't required, but that marriage does add up to about the most capability of any end to end solution, at any price.


CQC advises that a single product plan is the best.

MainLobby provides choice.

Homeseer hasn't commented.


Give Homeseer a look. Good, solid product.


----------



## Dean Roddey

The other big gotcha is that Homeseer is a single box solution. It's not a networked product, except for the special case of a TTS/VR program that can run on multiple machines.


----------



## gbirk

GD -


I use HomeSeer and it meets all of my current needs, Insteon Light Control, Irrigation (Rain8Net) and Security (Caddx). I agree with the prior poster that their "front end" or user interface is not very glitzy. An XLobby user is writing a plug-in for HomeSeer http://www.xlobby.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4874 


The HomeSeer Board is very active. For comparison, I just checked the Boards at HomeSeer, CQC, Cinemar and XLobby. The number of Users currently online:


HomeSeer - 70

CQC - 21

Cinemar - 11

XLobby - 7


----------



## robertmee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gbirk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> The HomeSeer Board is very active. For comparison, I just checked the Boards at HomeSeer, CQC, Cinemar and XLobby. The number of Users currently online:
> 
> 
> HomeSeer - 70
> 
> CQC - 21
> 
> Cinemar - 11
> 
> XLobby - 7



That just means HomeSeer users are the geekiest of all and have absolutely no life


----------



## IVB

Yeah, or the CQC guys are busy hooking up their house, as all device drivers are free so you may as well get everything wired up.


Myself, I've been swearing at 96 yr old houses and electrical wiring and zWave all day. Ok, back to the grind.


----------



## Dean Roddey

Another thing to consider is the nature of the activity. See how many posts are complaints on the various product fora. I read them all pretty regularly so I have a reasonable feel for the level of happihood amonst the various user bases. I think that you will find a fair amount of not too happy traffic on some boards, while others have very little.


----------



## Mark P

Well,

I took IVB strategery and tried a from scratch scene today and made every single thing myself in Photoshop except the buttons (may try that later)


I took a little something from everyone, The Christmas spirit on/off buttons for IVB, Deans winter wonderland, which is cool for seasonal scenes, and a couple other little things that will be changed ( advice from Lathan and Ripper would be nice )


Anyway, 6 hours later (lol, just a little bit) and I sick of the by scratch stuff but seasonal is easy with slight adjustments, I know Spa needs nudged up and already did and the reason its alittle bigger is because thats the main button, other will be deleted to clean it up since they can be controlled in pool and stuff like the cleaner is basically automatic but I was playing around seeing if status was coming back


----------



## QQQ

Very pretty!!! It just looks "right" (of course I have the feeling you will continue to tweak based on following your stuff so far). You have a good eye for design. Did you just start with Photoshop? Did you design your media room as well Mark?


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Very pretty!!! It just looks "right" (of course I have the feeling you will continue to tweak based on following your stuff so far). You have a good eye for design. Did you just start with Photoshop? Did you design your media room as well Mark?



I design everything and the Media Room was designed on the fly as I built it, I knew I wanted to feel like I was in a Theater so I stretched the screen to the limit and went from there. Decided to raise the ceiling because of this ( and acoustics) and once that happened then the PJ became a problem so I built a balcony to hold the PJ and everything just kept falling into place via a saw and tape measure. Im cheap and lazy so theres no plans for anything.


I made everything in photoshop except the IVB colored buttons which are softened up and more of a neutral not so bold green and red now. I am going to give the buttons on my Home page a shot.


The picture I had to alter because there was snow on the steps coming down and the dogs had tracks here and there and last but not least I fixed the reflection in the pool because the other day when I shot it, it was dreary and the reflection was weak and its normally pretty decent. I just masked the house and flipped it and then liquified it ( this was alot of the six hours because getting it to not look to fake took some practice and I am pretty new at Photoshop. Then you run it through Flash and your done.


----------



## QQQ

Why did you make the green bar for "Spa" a different size than the other bars?


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I design everything and the Media Room was designed on the fly as I built it, I knew I wanted to feel like I was in a Theater so I stretched the screen to the limit and went from there. Decided to raise the ceiling because of this ( and acoustics) and once that happened then the PJ became a problem so I built a balcony to hold the PJ and everything just kept falling into place via a saw and tape measure. Im cheap and lazy so theres no plans for anything.



Strange words from someone in the construction biz (on the fly design, no plans)







.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why did you make the green bar for "Spa" a different size than the other bars?



I did that because thats really the only button I want and use for the most part, I changed this about 5 times as I progressed, I had oval buttons but it was just too much oval going on.


And yeah I hate plans, mainly because I used to fight with architects all the time, I swear I dont know where some of those guys get their degrees and have been known to ask them that very question. I have been building since about the age of 7 and its just natural to build on the fly. Most of my projects are on the fly if permits allow which is more than one would think plus most inspectors that know me know Im going to go overboard and beyond unless its Insteon


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And yeah I hate plans, mainly because I used to fight with architects all the time, I swear I dont know where some of those guys get their degrees and have been known to ask them that very question.



Designing something and having it work are two different things







. A friend in construction has said to me again and again that prior to being an architect they should have to intern and work on actual construction sites which seems like a great idea to me. I've worked with some outstanding architects but some often seem more like designers to me, i.e just drawing something with no practical knowledge of implementation and often what is drawn can't even be done or has to be modified for structural reasons.


Heck, the great Frank Lloyd Wright was infamous for designing things that were beautiful but had problems. My favorite was the beautiful office center with the lilly pad design (or what ever it was called) that leaked for 10 years and the owner kept a bucket near his desk...and then hired Wright because of his brilliant design for his next project!


----------



## IVB

very very nice, yet another person with a more artistic eye than myself.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ( advice from Lathan and Ripper would be nice )



Well you sure don't need my advice on how to build a nice house 


As for the graphics..great work Mark and honestly I think most of the time its a matter of taste and what you like not what the other guy likes..myself I prefer metal interface types of things or techy looking stuff.


I see many others interfaces/templates and many have a totally different idea to how they want their systems to work and look..something like peoples homes/cars and what one person likes isn't what everybody likes.


If you are looking for a few tutorials in Photoshop I've made a few videos that show some simple stuff


Here is a video that teachs the basics of making buttons and odd shaped buttons you might find on typical remotes in Photoshop.

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=2677 


Here is a thread on CQC forums that has a link to hundreds of excellent collected Photoshop tutorials compiled into a .chm file that I put together.

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=1085 


Here is another thread that teachs you how to use the Pen Tool in Photoshop to trace things..In this example I teach you how to take an image of the UPS logo and trace and recolor it

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=1819 


**Note the videos may be large(approx) 90MB but they are 20-30 minutes and will walk you through some Photoshop basics..its best to download them and that way you can rewind and replay them etc until you get the hang of things.


----------



## QQQ

Ripper,


Going OT a bit, would you give me your 60 second critique of Macromedia (now Adobe) Fireworks versus Photoshop, assuming you have deep experience with both. We use Fireworks predominantly.


----------



## Ripper99

I have nothing bad to say about Fireworks and used it for at least 3 years while using Photoshop..they both are very powerful and I guess it really comes down to what you get comfortable with.


I started using Photoshop in about 1995 but in 1999 I changed work and basically just used it for a hobby and photo editing stuff until just last summer when I got into the HA stuff a bit..still feel very much like an amateur with some of the new features.


Basically both products have all the features anybody would ever need and more and now that Adobe owns them they will likely just merge them into a single product one day.


I really don't need to use multiple products like I did in the past with work and basically just learned over the years to achieve the same results using Photoshop.


I still own the MX versions of everything from Macromedia but over the years migrated to Adobe CS2 and stayed with it...still learning Illustrator when I have free time..basic its all for hobby these days, you can pretty well do everything one way or another with either product.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Basically both products have all the features anybody would ever need and more...



That is basically what we concluded as well but I wondered if you thought there was any compelling reason to change, any extra power we might gain with CS2. Thanks for the answer. It was pretty funny when I read a thread on a graphics forum once comparing them. It was much like this thread with people in each camp flaming back and forth like crazy with a few people in the middle saying what you say above.


----------



## Ripper99

If you have been using one product for any length of time its always a transition to switch over and new software can't be learned overnight so thats why I try to stick with Photoshop.


I'm not sure how much extra power you would get switching to Photoshop..might be more tutorials and a larger user group compared to Fireworks but regardless I'm sure anything that can be done in Photoshop can also be done in Fireworks you just have to figure out how its done.


Comparisons of software is the same as everything else and each person will always take a side and flamefests happen and never is their an absolute winner


LCD vs Plasma

Flat screen Vs Curved Screen

PS3 vs Xbox

Expensive Cables Vs Lampcord

Crestron Vs AMX

BluRay Vs HD-DVD


----------



## LathanM

I have to agree with Ripper on the Flash/Photoshop comparison, although now that they are both Adobe products expect to see allot more overlap between them. As with anything else pick the tool that fits your style. For most of my work it is a 90/10 split in favor of Photoshop, since I have been using it off and on since v2. My wife is the reverse, loves Flash and Illustrator but is just starting out on Photoshop.


Mark P,

I like the you design. It has a nice 'hommy' feeling that works well for this type on interface. I am a big proponet if simplicity of controls so for me fewer is better. The less a person has to think about what a button does the more they use the system. Using dufferent button sizes is a good way of achieving this since the common controls stand out.


For a qood source of Photoshop tutorials check out Good-Tutorials.com ( http://www.good-tutorials.com/ ). They cover just about every standard photoshop technique so you can get a good idea of what is possible. Don't worry if you don't see an exact match for what you are wanting to do, use the tutorials as guides to build from. Mix and match, take stuff from the edge rounding tutorial, combine it with a rounded surface tutorial then use the techniques in the wood texture tutorial to create a wooden curved button. It doesn't matter what app you use it is about learning the techniques. The more techniques you understand the easier it is to get the effect you are looking for.


----------



## Mark P

Ripper, your the man!

Theres so many cool people in HA, its really a fantastic sharing community. I wish I had those videos before!


The look I am going for is almost as plain as I can get things to hopefully blend into the surroundings so I went the "Picture" route as much as possible. Most things are done with actual pictures since I am more a visual person and clumsy with buttons. I have pretty big hands that have been abused for years so I need stuff fairly large. On my finished Layout the picture will be bigger and to turn pool heat on you will touch the pool, same with the cleaner which will be up by the steps (where it always seems the dirtiest) My "back button is touching the house, my irrigation is touching the lawn ( when I get there)


When done, you will sort of walk through the house screen to screen. Lighting is floorplan and rooms that have major lighting will go to the actual room and you touch the lamps and they go on, touch the ceiling and it goes on, touch the paintings and they turn on. The only buttons will be a all on/off room and all on/off party or entertaining modes.


When it comes to entertainment stuff like TV and sound I will then go towards the buttons approach.


I really, really want to have steam rising out of the pool as an ON indication, and heavy steam in the hot tub. My temp sliders are going to invisable on top with numbers instead to save room but...... I wanted to get a close-up of the hot tub normal and boiling with jets, steam and build an animation type thing for my indicators. Im still trying to figure out how to make actual temperatures fade in and out every 5 or so seconds to really clean stuff up.


after playing around a few more minutes


----------



## IVB

I'd like to formally convey my sustaining jealousy over LathanM/tharthigh's "1 touchscreen per room" structure.


Oy, having 5-8 of them throughout the house would certainly make certain things simpler. Of course, i'd have plenty of WAF since she'd leave me so there wouldn't be any needed, but my god have i mentioned that i'm jealous...


----------



## LathanM

IVB, you also have a few steps above the norm in your install. What was the latest addition magnetic door locks. I call it a toss up on the cool factor.


----------



## Dean Roddey

I'm an Illustrator guy myself. Working with a vector based system has it's pros and cons of course. Actually Illustrator is a bit of a hybrid with a little rastorism thrown in (which is not the same thing as Zororastianism.) The ability to resize art work without much limitations is obviously a big advantage, particularly for doing backgrounds where I want to spit them out for various sizes, and it helps with generating different sizes of buttons and so forth. Though, sometimes it doesn't work quit as well as it should since it doesn't always scale some effects, such as size of gaussian blurs, so you sometimes have to adjust them manually.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LathanM* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IVB, you also have a few steps above the norm in your install. What was the latest addition magnetic door locks. I call it a toss up on the cool factor.



Interesting side benefit/distraction to my HA stuff: I live in one of the nicer neighborhoods in Oakland, CA, and crime is on the uptick. Must be the holidays, at least that's what we're hoping. The wife is happy that I've basically completed the HT bit and have moved on to HA.


I now have free reign to do anything security related, as the wife is now increasingly on edge outside. It's no way to live, but the problem is that in the Bay Area, crime is coming to you. And unless we want to live in a homogenous micro-neighborhood, moving within the bay area isn't an option. If it doesn't change in 6 months, we'd probably look at moving out of state, but hopefully it doesn't come to that.


I'm now looking into flush-mounted, near-invisible maglocks on all doors, keyfob access to lighting from the car (turn on exterior lights with a single button push), and potentially RFID or VR in the entry to unlock the door & disarm the system (or code words for duress/home-invasion). I've already talked to a developer about writing a driver(s) for CQC for the missing RFID/VR bits.


All this won't happen for many months, and of course, the recent spate is all muggings which are indefensible from an HA perspective, but I can't let that get in the way of "progress"


----------



## Dean Roddey

It's an interesting contrast that down here in Silicon Valley, just 40 minutes away, in an equally ethnically diverse area I think, there's very low crime rates. They both are equally expensive to live in pretty much, so it's hard to argue that it's about high cost of living keeping the riff-raff out. If anything, SF is probably somewhat more expensive. I guess it's just the difference between the urban and suburban environment. Silicon Valley is more or less one big suburb. San Jose is I guess the biggest city here and it's not all that large.


----------



## Dean Roddey

There may be a break on the RFID front here soon, so don't make any moves there yet. Can't say anything specific yet but something may be happening soon.


----------



## IVB

Cool. Well, the developer who was going to research it has other drivers that were on his plate first, and wouldn't be able to break ground until Feb->March at the earliest, so I've got some time to see if anything else pans out.


----------



## IVB

Got a question for the ML guys. I was checking out the ML forums, trying to educate myself more on the new stuff so I wouldn't misrepresent anything, came across a statement I didn't quite understand.


It said that there's no PPC version of MainLobby. Is that needed in order to draw a custom UI and pull it up on your PPC?


For example, I've been using the following screens to control my house from my cellphone PDA. Now i personally have been doing this over the Cingular network when not in the house, so as to turn the heat up before I go home, but there's folks who like the whole PPC as their universal remote idea.


It's pretty trivial to do this in CQC - just use the same interface editor that you use for your regular templates, and pull them up in the DotNetViewer on your PPC. How would I do this in ML?

BTW, this is my full list of PPC screenshots from V1.6 , i'll update them once the 2.0 DotNetViewer is available.


----------



## cavalier240

Since I am the one who first started this thread, I figured I would give a quick summation of what I have learned and where that has led me.


While at some points this thread did resemble a shouting match between the CQC and ML camps, A LOT of valuable information was posted. After reading every post and trying both products, I have determined that both products can do what I want to do, but I am 99% sure that I will go CQC for these reasons:


1) Support. While there are certainly very vocal people from both camps on this board, the real difference is on the individual product forums. On the CQC forums, most all of the posts are of users helping users advance the current state of their systems by sharing information, practices, screen elements, etc. Further, when I posted questions, I had numerous answers within hours, from both users and Dean (I still have no idea how many hours Dean has in his day since he appears to be everywhere, while still developing). On the ML forums, the majority of the posts seemed to be problem/issue related, and some front-page posts were several months old. It just seemed to me that the amount of information on those boards that I could use was very low.


2) Licensing. This directly reflects my personal preferences, but I would rather know up front exactly what I have to buy versus constant purchases of drivers/images/etc. Additionally, I like how the CQC package is structured so that any computer on the network can serve any piece of hardware without having to buying additional server licenses.


3) Underlying structure. I like how I can hook any piece of hardware to any computer on my network and control it from any other computer or touchscreen, all using the $495 package. I also like how I can make changes to the user interfaces, hit save, and have that reflected on every machine.


4) Command build structure. Once again, a personal preference, but the manner for building commands and logic just makes sense. Since most all button clicks will execute a unique set of commands (and have to run through a unique set of logic before executing those commands), it makes sense to me to build those commands into the button. I understand the arguments that people have made for global commands, but I think for the relatively short and unique pieces of logic that I am constructing, that tied to the button is the easiest way to go for both construction and editing.


This last reason I am sure is somewhat controversial, but in my mind is also very valid.


5) Ethics. As IVB mentioned, I am not sure that I can voluntarily support a company that I knowingly have doubts on their business practices. All it would take to remedy my doubts is the follow-up answer on where ML gets its data and the terms on which it licenses the icons that it sells. While these may be irrelevant to the capabilities if the software, the absence of those answers is a definite deal breaker.


Please feel free to comment on anything that I have mentioned, whether in positive support or negation of anything that I said, as I still have a few days before I have to buy CQC to get the lower price.


----------



## CTay

cavalier240, I was in the same boat as you. I was leaning towards ML & HS at first. I felt a little pressured to make a quick decision so as to not lose out on the $495 deal, and I really didn't like the $95 "maintenance fee" for CQC. However, the more I looked into what you get with CQC, the support of the CQC user base and the potential problem with ML weather data, logos, etc... I jumped into CQC. I just bought it last night. I'm pretty sure it was the right decision.


Chris


----------



## wdill

overall this has been a great thread, and aside from some bashing, I have learned a lot from it. I am a total home automation newby with no computer knowledge so both systems are way over my head but I felt Cinemar was a bit easier to pick up on. Also Cinemar supports UPB which CQC doesn't appear to have any near plans for this. I had a few early problems (my mistakes) loading and setting up and I was amazed at how fast David responded to my questions and got me going.


Wayne


----------



## IVB

Glad to hear ctay is joining the cult, we'll make sure he gets the answers he needs on a timely basis. For any other folks, a few of the seasoned users are assembling a final "pre-increase" webex this Saturday, i'll post details once confirmed.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wdill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also Cinemar supports UPB which CQC doesn't appear to have any near plans for this.
> 
> Wayne



FYI - Dean has already posted his intention to break ground on this shortly after the 2.0 launch, which is this Sunday. Obviously there's no "release date" promised, but at least there's a near-term "kickoff" date.


----------



## lpott6




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wdill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> overall this has been a great thread, and aside from some bashing, I have learned a lot from it. I am a total home automation newby with no computer knowledge so both systems are way over my head but I felt Cinemar was a bit easier to pick up on. Also Cinemar supports UPB which CQC doesn't appear to have any near plans for this. I had a few early problems (my mistakes) loading and setting up and I was amazed at how fast David responded to my questions and got me going.
> 
> 
> Wayne



Dean (CQC) has stated recently that UPB will be one of the 1st drivers to be added to the product post 2.0.


However, if you have any intention of pursuing a hardware & software solution, I would suggest reading up on the Elk M1. I use the M1 for all mission critical activities, i.e.; security, lighting control and HVAC. The M1 supports UPB fully and exposes the status of all controlled devices to CQC for easy viewing and direct control if desired.


HTH


----------



## smoothtlk

Thank you Wayne, welcome to the Cinemar family.


----------



## IVB

So....what's the answer to this question? Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to understand ML a little more so I don't misrepresent what it can/cannot do.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Got a question for the ML guys. I was checking out the ML forums, trying to educate myself more on the new stuff so I wouldn't misrepresent anything, came across a statement I didn't quite understand.
> 
> 
> It said that there's no PPC version of MainLobby. Is that needed in order to draw a custom UI and pull it up on your PPC?
> 
> 
> For example, I've been using the following screens to control my house from my cellphone PDA. Now i personally have been doing this over the Cingular network when not in the house, so as to turn the heat up before I go home, but there's folks who like the whole PPC as their universal remote idea.
> 
> 
> It's pretty trivial to do this in CQC - just use the same interface editor that you use for your regular templates, and pull them up in the DotNetViewer on your PPC. How would I do this in ML?
> 
> BTW, this is my full list of PPC screenshots from V1.6 , i'll update them once the 2.0 DotNetViewer is available.


----------



## Mark P

Let me take a stab at this, I think I asked this same question awhile back because when I tried Meedio last year people were saying how neat it was to have stuff on a palm pilot so I went and got one and soon found it to be a gimmick and waste of $300 more than anything considering cell phone these days can do what a PPC can do. I cant remember what the answer was but I think it was something to the effect that only one or two people ever asked about it and I was one of them. It would be interesting to know what the support for cell phone is ( or anyones) I would like lighting scenes controlled via a cell phone. Maybe a website that sends commands to server would take care of everything and Im curious about that. Make a little website and different clicks there send different commands back to the house somehow. My PPC has sat around collecting dust for a year because it was so impractical and clumsy to take seriously as a touchscreen but auto dials on a cell phone would be pretty sweet.


----------



## IVB

Thanks for the response. Keep in mind that I have a PDA cellphone (Cingular 8125), so I have a PPC AND a cellphone.


This means that when I'm not at home, I can use those screens above to do stuff like check in on the house while i'm gone, turn up the heat (which lately has been an absolute godsend), turn on the AC/fan, etc. CQC accomplishes this via it's "Dot Net Viewer", which is basically the PPC version of it's Interface Viewer. Not as full-featured as the IV, but you can use the same interface editor and widgets as your regular templates so it only took me


----------



## styxx_78

Where can i get the latest trial version available for download (v2.x)? I thought i saw it on the CQC website but now I can't find it.


----------



## IVB

 This is the link to the post with the beta website info , the post directly above it will always have the latest beta.


FYI - I think Dean is about to post V0.24, which is the likely 2.0 candidate. If you haven't yet installed it, you may want to wait until then.


BTW, there's an intro webex on Sat, 8:30am PST/11:30am EST if you want help understanding what the heck it is.


----------



## cavalier240

How do I take part in that webex?


----------



## IVB

Check this thread for details , PM jkmonroe if you're interested, he'll send out the login info.


----------



## IVB

I'm still holding out hope that I'll get an answer one way or the other about this from either smoothtlk or one of the big ML users that have participated so far.


This has helped me bigtime 2 ways:

1)Given the weather we've had lately, controlling the HVAC and turning on the heat before we get home really has been a godsend.

2) It looks like we'll be able to use some of the cheaper but nicer touchscreen PCs as they're CE.NET devices and we can just run the DotNetViewer to render our screens.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Got a question for the ML guys. I was checking out the ML forums, trying to educate myself more on the new stuff so I wouldn't misrepresent anything, came across a statement I didn't quite understand.
> 
> 
> It said that there's no PPC version of MainLobby. Is that needed in order to draw a custom UI and pull it up on your PPC?
> 
> 
> For example, I've been using the following screens to control my house from my cellphone PDA. Now i personally have been doing this over the Cingular network when not in the house, so as to turn the heat up before I go home, but there's folks who like the whole PPC as their universal remote idea.
> 
> 
> It's pretty trivial to do this in CQC - just use the same interface editor that you use for your regular templates, and pull them up in the DotNetViewer on your PPC. How would I do this in ML?
> 
> BTW, this is my full list of PPC screenshots from V1.6 , i'll update them once the 2.0 DotNetViewer is available.


----------



## Mark P

Latham or Ripper how do you save a style in photoshop? I made some buttons I really like and Rippers walkthroughs talk about saving styles but not how to save a style.


----------



## thartigh

Ripper. I dont use the ppc stuff and have never looked into it. But I would say your read correctly. I dont see any support for mainlobby ppc other than musiclobby and dvdlobby. Looks like people rdp to it though. If I were to do it I would probably use the webserver.


It looks like they have it mostly done but not ready for a production release. It also appears they dont plan to get on it very soon.


Hope that helps!


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thartigh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ripper. I dont use the ppc stuff and have never looked into it. But I would say your read correctly. I dont see any support for mainlobby ppc other than musiclobby and dvdlobby. Looks like people rdp to it though. If I were to do it I would probably use the webserver.
> 
> 
> It looks like they have it mostly done but not ready for a production release. It also appears they dont plan to get on it very soon.
> 
> 
> Hope that helps!



It does, thanks. And it was me, not ripper.


I'm curious as no one else seems to have replied to this other than MarkP. Doesn't anyone else think that being able to monitor/control your house through a PDA cellphone is highly value-add, and that RDP is too skittish for touchscreen control? Heck, during the heatwave in the summer my wife would be the one asking me to turn on the whole-house fan before we'd leave a restaurant. Plus, we were able to kick off DVDs for the babysitters when they called us so we didn't have to worry about them breaking our stuff.


I'm also not following your webserver statement: For in-house touchpanels, why would you choose to use a webserver with the inherent limitations IE would put on you if you could use a native fat-client viewer with better graphics and performance?


But again, thank you very much for your reply and assistance understanding the product.


----------



## smoothtlk

IVB, as our website indicates, Cinemar has a DVDLobby PPC, a MusicLobbyPPC, a XMLobbyPPC and RussoundCav66PPC applications.


----------



## LathanM




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Latham or Ripper how do you save a style in photoshop? I made some buttons I really like and Rippers walkthroughs talk about saving styles but not how to save a style.



There is a New Style button on the right of the style dialog box. Just click it. To quickly get allot of styles to work with try Googling "photoshop styles download".


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LathanM* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is a New Style button on the right of the style dialog box. Just click it. To quickly get allot of styles to work with try Googling "photoshop styles download".



I was wondering if I could save something I made up on a button in the styles as a new style, watching one of Rippers videos I noticed he had quite a few and mentioned he had made them


----------



## LathanM




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IDoesn't anyone else think that being able to monitor/control your house through a PDA cellphone is highly value-add, and that RDP is too skittish for touchscreen control?



It depends on the user. I have yet to find a handheld that is worth the money. Tiny screens, goofy shapes and being too connected are just a few of my gripes with them. The best solution I have found for remote control is voice via products like HAL. Simple, works from any dialtone and is easy for anyone to use.


As for RDP being skittish, I haven't noticed any issues with it and use it daily for all my touchscreens via Citrix. I haven't had any issues with it across platforms (Mac, Win, *nix), over VPN or open internet.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IVB, as our website indicates, Cinemar has a DVDLobby PPC, a MusicLobbyPPC, a XMLobbyPPC and RussoundCav66PPC applications.



I saw that, wasn't debating that bit. What I wanted to understand was whether you could create your own PPC interfaces. You didn't actually answer that question directly, so I take it the answer is "no, you cannot".


does that mean that you cannot control any hardware other than a russound on a PPC? I.E., a denon receiver, elk, etc?


----------



## cavalier240

Well - I took the plunge and purchased CQC tonight. I know that CQC is overkill for what I want to do with it right now, but after dialing into the webex this morning, I decided that having that kind of support is worth the extra money. Thanks to all.


----------



## IVB

good to hear it. And next time, i'll tell my wife not to upload 50MB of pictures to ofoto in the middle of a webex, so I can actually show you how my stuff works. (didn't figure that out until it was over, which is why I ended up abandoning my attempts to show you anything. Guess "the internet" was up after all










Also don't forget that there's a live chat area on cqcusers.com as well as the regular CQC forum. Difficult questions are probably better kept on the forum as they'd need pictures or multiple points of view, but quick live questions or small stuff (or random abuse b/c you're bored) is always welcome.


----------



## Mark P

I think I am going to have to break down and get it as well, if nothing else to have a backup and give me something to play with when I am complete with Cinemar which is pretty close.


My thought is why not run them both, some do things better than others and this is obvious. From watching and not using CQC but attending the Webexs they have, and spending hours on the phone bothering Mario @ Cinemar, it seems to me the glaring differences that would matter to me are.

*Cinemar*


Better ( or easier ) DVD cover Art finding device, type the movie name, pick where the movie is and you're done


Plugins for the most part are done including most scenes on the client, plug'n'play type setup so even if you want to change scenes you already understand whats going on by looking at the buttons on the scenes in edit mode. In CQC even if you use someone elses scenes you have to re-name everything unless you use the same Plugins ( drivers in CQC)


Better Insteon support ( maybe) for me this is top priority NOW, Cinemar is going for total control of Insteon from within Cinemar and this is VERY attractive. Houselinc stinks and digging around in 3rd party betas to make groups seems a bother I dont want to deal with. I figure if one or the other can do something, the other should be getting it covered as well. This may be naive and so far it seems Insteon is keeping everyone from having an easy time developing.


Flash based scenes would appear to have an edge in graphic interface but someone would have to explain if this is true, its a double edge sword though, you want to do your own work on your scenes you better have Flash and its expensive. My example being, I have a pool scene I am perfecting and most of my scenes are photo based ( the photo is my status button on lighting and pool so far) when the pool cleaner is on, the water is moving in the pool, when the heater is on, steam is rising. From my understanding anything you can do on a Web page can be done in Cinemar if you know how to do it. Maybe CQC can as well through animations.


You can call and actually speak to the owners which gives it a more personable feel but unloads the guilt of stopping progress so I understand why Deans stays in the Bat Cave.


Several Owners, one gets hit by a car and life goes on with Cinemar as long as Perrico isnt the one that dies in the car but I think they have developers training to keep the show running. Im not sure if Dean dies tonight from lack of sun and sleep, someone has keys to the Cadillac. It seems Dean is the Sheriff and I hope hes getting a Deputy trained.


Ever expanding hardware solutions appear to be adding to their product line and it appears they arent jacking the price, I have bought my third item dealer direct now, and the pricing appears the same.


I could probably go on but the bottom line is Cinemar is fairly plug n play which is a good direction to take. Id pay $60 to save 4 hours of work any day of the week, even 2 hours if I have 500 hours to go.

*CQC*


I have not used it but have seen it in action in 3 lengthy Webex meetings.


Video tutorials, massive advantage for a visual person like me, I have stated the first that did this got paid and now I have to keep my end of the bargain. This shows willingness to take customers serious even if its one numbskull in the corner complaining. Too me this only makes sense and will get newbies up and running much faster that sludging around forums searching and asking questions.


I will admit CQC confuses the heck out of me and sucks any motivation of delving deeper but I think you may just have to say the heck with it and jump in, everyone says its easy once you get past the first couple days but............. theres a power hidin beneath in the fact there people that really enjoy what I see as a headache and these folks will assist you completely in Webex and in a nightly chat, if I understand correctly, some of the CQC people will grab hold of your CQC and tweak it right in front of your eyes. The support aspect seems to be swinging quickly towards open source. Get in a jam, pull out half your hair, throw a couple remotes through a window and get on a chat and look for squintz or JKMonroe or Larry in Denver and off you go to the races.


CQC seems more powerful from the outside looking in just at watching others messing with it including making user interfaces, I wouldnt believe it was true after getting fairly decent at Cinemar but I can see an advantage to scratch building interfaces in CQC after today. I might not know which of the 5 million commands or menues to go through to design the interface but I was shown a couple things today where Jason made popups and in those popups brought up other popups and then grabbed weather radar and made it a clickable button with power in just seconds. Bounding box driven and basically all the functions of a photoshop/photopaint type layout ( not quite that easy but...) and what you can do with a single button runs very deep.


Cell phone control (not PPC) support is VERY inviting, who doesnt want to turn on their lights a mile from home? I am curious as to what Cinemars support of controlling mainlobby from a cell phone is as well.


Regardless of things I missed, I think having both may benefit me alone and need to figure out how to make buttons in each that will open aspects of one or the other that lack needs I feel are important. Not sure if theres enough hours in a day to mess with CQC but $500 and youre dont is pretty attractive, I do feel theres hidden costs using CQC like the things people use like J..river music do dad, dvd profiler, and any other stuff needed to make things run smooth, if not in cost then in the hundreds of hours to reset everything. I also know zoomplayer was garbage to me ( a year ago) and they seem to use it alot. I havent researched it lately but a year ago it was pretty Plain Jane and showed its freeness factor as compared to a highly tweaked TheaterTek.


Anybody working on XBox360 support? If not, I would get moving on it, its turning out to be a powerful little addition to any HT


----------



## Dean Roddey

You can use TheaterTek as well. We have drivers for both. And our media architcture abstracts them such that they will both work the same with our media repositories and such. Zoom has some benefits for music, since it's so light weight. TheaterTek probably has the edge on video quality out of the box. But you can use either, or both. Whatever works for you.


----------



## Mark P

Actually went to buy CQC and started noticing a pretty good pile of additional $95 costs for additional products and Im guessing I need most of them I f I plan on operating CQC with a cell phone or from a website, is this correct? I am guessing I would need all 6 $100 add ons to do all the things talked about in here. With all the talk about no additional charges for additional componants thats been thrown around in this thread I hope I am miss reading this but CQC cost $1200.00 not $495.


If this is true a whole lot of editing needs to happen to this thread


----------



## robertmee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually went to buy CQC and started noticing a pretty good pile of additional $95 costs for additional products and Im guessing I need most of them I f I plan on operating CQC with a cell phone or from a website, is this correct? I am guessing I would need all 6 $100 add ons to do all the things talked about in here. With all the talk about no additional charges for additional componants thats been thrown around in this thread I hope I am miss reading this but CQC cost $1200.00 not $495.
> 
> 
> If this is true a whole lot of editing needs to happen to this thread



Not true at all. If you look again, you'll see the CQC complete package at the top for $495. That's the pre-lease 2.0 special. The following items are the base package and add-ons which will be the price after 2.0 is released and it goes to $895. All those add-ons listed for $95 you get now in the $495 price.


----------



## Mark P

Good to go then, I saw the scratched out media repository and nothing else. If the other six packages were scratched out I would have been ok. I guess I misread or didnt understand why the other things are even there with $95 price tags if they are included. Now you see why CQC confuses me, I cant read or dechipher properly.


----------



## IVB

BTW, for audio, jonathan has done some amazing things with the slimserver driver. He doesn't use Zoomplayer at all, rather he uses softsqueeze as his CD/XMRO renderer. I'm waiting to switch over until jkmonroe writes up his tutorial on it, but it's supposedly a much better option for the sound quality buffs (of which I am NOT one, but the other features it supposedly are awesome).


I'll wait until midweek, then post a thread on the CQC forum asking about the next desired webex session. The standard is the last Saturday of the month at 8:30am PST, but there's been a flood of new users in the past week so perhaps either 1/6 or 1/13 might be good for a CQC 102 (beginner second course) or 201 (advanced beginner) session. We're probably cancelling this months standard session as I doubt there'd be anyone around on 12/30 to have one


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> I guess I misread or didnt understand why the other things are even there with $95 price tags if they are included. Now you see why CQC confuses me, I cant read or dechipher properly.



Not everyone has bought the full package in the past, though most have. So we have to make the options available separately for those folks if they want to add one or more to their system.


----------



## Mark P

Not to worry, I get it now, sort of. So tomorrow what does CQC cost for the entire package including the all the $95 extras? $895 for total bundle and $495 for the base package and additional $95 for the other components when needed making the Total package attractive at a reduced rate even after tomorrow? I get it, I think, the additional $95 dollar packages arent so much an additional cost but an additional savings to folks that dont want internet capabilities and can still get CQC for $495 next Friday.


----------



## IVB

yes, totally correct.


As of 12:01am tomorrow, the base package is $495. The base is pretty powerful as-is, and has all drivers, etc.


There are 4 $95 and 1 $145 add-on available for stuff like PDA viewer (create a custom interface, some limitations do exist), Web Server, Media Repository (that's $145). Not everyone will need or want those, ie it would seem most participants on this thread don't care about PDA or webserver access. They don't have to buy them, they can stick with $495.


EDIT: Made a mistake, Event Server is NOT part of the base package.


----------



## Mark P

I think it was the scratch outs that got me, that with my usual glance over reading habits, Its my 5th grade teachers fault for passing me.


----------



## Mark P

Not to drag this subject back up but Im not sure I ever understood it completely but I checked the dreaded 5 day outlook up and looked at my screen and remembered the Weather Channel Icon up there and remembered wanting to remove that while editing screens a month ago and had forgot to. I remember one of the issues was that their logo didnt appear but infact it does and has on my screen, also I have residence in my 3 places so where is it again that somethings not quite legal about this, I only ask because I have been watching weather set up in a different program and its always being done with fake emails and such and folks are cutting and pasting a code which I am guessing is the part done automatically in Cinemar. So I paid Cinemar to make my weather page for me, they show the weather channel icon, whats the difference between this and fake email usage to get the zipcode? Am I missing something here?


----------



## IVB

I'm sure there's a question in there somewhere, but I have no idea what it is


----------



## Mark P

A lot of time was spent trying to convince members here that Cinemar is a merry band of thieves breaking all the rules, it even had some people replying they wont get Cinemar because they are bandits, I guess I dont see the difference other than you pay one to make all your completed scenes including a Weather Channel Logo, If you live at 3 different places, 3 different zipcodes would be normal I would think. The other system leaves it up to you to make your weather page and go to weather.com and enter info to get the zipcode #, all three times I have seen this done the instruction was to enter fake email addresses to get that number and never a mention to place a logo anywhere. With all the fuss that was raised, I still wasnt clear on why it was raised if both are accomplishing the same end result.


----------



## IVB

It's a question of risk and exposure to legal liability. Do you take it on by entering fake email addresses, or does the company take it on by bending (breaking?) the weather.com EULA. I don't know the details of the weather.com contracts, Dean could answer that, but here's my guess:


There's no need to use 3 fake email addresses to get your weather. If a user instructed demonstrated this, it's still your choice to do this. If I did this myself, then it was also that i don't want to demo how to do a weather driver and share my real email address with people I don't know on a public webex.


In the end, you're totally correct of course - it produces the same end result. However, in one case the company takes on liability, in the other you take it on IF you choose to enter a fake email address.


I know in my "real" system I use a legitimate email address and website. Hence I'm now covered and legal and so is CQC. Everyone wins in that model.


----------



## Dean Roddey

The WC agreement requires that not only the logo be there (and not be removable) but that it look a certain way and have a certain orientation relative to the other information displayed and so forth.


It requires that there be no other graphic with a 25% width area of the logo, that the logo not be resized or changed, and that you must provide links on the page to weather channel URLs that are sent along with the XML data. And those links must follow the guidelines for appearance. The application must display the location information on the same screen as the weather data. And it clearly says you cannot view more than one location at once.


There are various other constraints, and clearly that screen isn't meeting even all the ones mentioned above. I asked the WC folks about this, and their response was that if it's not a canned application where these things can be enforced, then it won't pass muster and that we shouldn't ship a key with the product. I assume that Cinemar never really bothered to ask, else I assume they'd be told the same thing.


----------



## IVB

Edit to my post above - as of tomorrow, $495 will NOT get you the event server - that's an add-on. Sorry about that.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I saw that, wasn't debating that bit. What I wanted to understand was whether you could create your own PPC interfaces. You didn't actually answer that question directly, so I take it the answer is "no, you cannot".
> 
> 
> does that mean that you cannot control any hardware other than a russound on a PPC? I.E., a denon receiver, elk, etc?



Still waiting on an answer for this bit.


----------



## IVB

It would really help rebuild any hint of credibility smoothtlk has if he would either respond to my requests for info with a direct answer, or stop accusing me of misrepresenting the truth.


Obviously he's watching since he's been posting to other threads and trying to sell his wares, I'm honestly just trying to understand the product so I don't mislead folks in the future.


----------



## IVB

Still waiting, smoothtlk. I'm not interested in being accused of mispresenting Cinemar's capabilities, responding to simple questions like these are a good way to let folks know what your software can and cannot do.


The question again: "does that mean that you cannot control any hardware other than a russound on a PPC? I.E., a denon receiver, elk, etc?"


----------



## smoothtlk

IVB, I would rather you not represent Cinemar at all.


----------



## Ripper99

Yeah you do a pretty good job yourself


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IVB, I would rather you not represent Cinemar at all.



Eh, huh?


Seriously, I just want to understand what PPC capabilities it has. Is that some form of state secret?


----------



## Mark P

Maybe search for Jmorris on the forums, he says he has total control of ML using some sort of Xantec stuff, hes waiting for someone to produce a decent touchscreen and is using a PPC til then, I dont think he wants to come in here and get in the middle of it since hes a pretty cool , mellow guy. If you are buying ML and want to know how to achieve this I can send him your way in a PM or something





> Quote:
> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by Mark P
> 
> link? If its running PPC software it wont work with ML


Didn't you find the email with the link in it? I don't have it here at work.


Also, it WILL work if the pda is running PPC. So there.


I have tested it and it works. I just need to see if I can create a scene of the correct size that makes sense. Hopefully tonight.


Joe


----------



## IVB

thanks for the offer, but i'd just as soon hear direct from the manufacturer so I don't have a "well we never said that" thing going on. I also have about 100 other questions, again just trying to educate myself on how Cinemar does things so I don't mislead anyone.


I have to admit, I'm at a total loss as to why Cinemar wouldn't want to set the record straight; we keep hearing about the awesome power of ML3, but it's been worse than pulling teeth just to get simple questions answered.


----------



## Ripper99

IVB..I highly doubt you will get an accurate answer from Cinemar and in the end they will try to turn it around and make you look like the bad guy for asking questions.


You may recall I am a former customer of Cinemar and used the product for over 6 months, there was a reason why I stopped using the product and moved on to CQC.


I won't say anything like "Cinemar Sucks" because that wouldn't be true but I can without any doubt that David avoids many specific questions about the product, he loves to boast endlessly about how Mainlobby is the best in the world and I'd swear the guy was a used car salesman before selling this software with some of the pitchs he gives to newbies.


I left the Cinemar camp for the plain and simple fact I don't take no BS from anybody and especially not a company that I give money, I don't wanna hear "An update is coming soon" and then you see nothing for months.


I consider this a total lack of respect for the customers investing in your company and if you wanna act that way and think nobody will step up and say something....you've got another thing comin.


I have called David/Cinemar out on many occasions and can assure you he always runs and hides until he sees a new prospective sale and will *always* avoid certain questions or claim something like they are "formulating a reply" which in Cinelingo means "Don't expect a reply anytime soon sucker"


David is constantly on this forum trolling for new sales and will avoid having to defend the product whenever he can but trust me when a sale might be possible he comes out of the shadows and spews a press release of 50 things beta or "Coming Soon" and then disappears until the next potential sale comes along..the whole time he will totally avoid specific questions about the Cinemar product or simply beat around the bush.


Its rather funny to listen to his sales pitch as he reminds you of the Best Buy geeks chasing you around the store trying to make a sale until they realize you only want a new keyboard and then they disappear but first they will ask you if you need an extended warranty on the new keyboard or "If you need help I'll be right over here"


----------



## QQQ

IVB,


This is really a little bit silly. Since you are quite firmly in the CQC camp it's a complete and total waste of ML's time to keep answering your questions. So it's a bit silly to keep asking questions, essentially so you can expand your knowledge of ML for when you offer comparisons telling people CQC is better, and then say "hey, why won't you answer my questions". The ML versus CQC info in this debate long since stopped being useful.


----------



## smoothtlk

Thank you QQQ, couldn't have said it better. You got it.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IVB,
> 
> 
> This is really a little bit silly. Since you are quite firmly in the CQC camp it's a complete and total waste of ML's time to keep answering your questions. So it's a bit silly to keep asking questions, essentially so you can expand your knowledge of ML for when you offer comparisons telling people CQC is better, and then say "hey, why won't you answer my questions". The ML versus CQC info in this debate long since stopped being useful.



Respectfully, I see things a bit differently. Earlier on in this thread, you asked for details about how CQC is more powerful than Cinemar. All I'm trying to do is understand how Cinemar works, so I can properly address that very legitimate question.


I've asked smoothtlk both over email and in this post for a copy of the software so I can make an independent analysis and make a decision based on truth. As those were ignored, the only avenue I have left to properly understand Cinemar is through the use of public forums. As those are being ignored, my only current recourse is to continue asking the same questions without passing judgement on how Cinemar works.


Unless there's real live independent users who can look at both products, newbies have no choice but to listen to filtered material, which helps no one.


I'm only asking for information, if Cinemar doesn't want to answer them then the path is simple - give me a trial copy of the product and i'll play with it myself and then answer it. I don't see the big deal - literally EVERY other package out there has no such tight grip on who is and is not permitted to look at their whole software suite.


And your "it's a waste of ML's time" argument doesn't hold water. In the time it took smoothtlk to type "Thank you QQQ, I couldn't have said it better", and "IVB, I'd really rather you not represent Cinemar at all", he could have just answered the question. Heck, he had to read your entire post to respond. The question was "Is it possible for MainLobby to use a PPC to control any hardware other than a russound device? (ie, Denon, Elk, etc)?". I know i'm not the best at english, but i'm thinking that "yes it can" or "no it can't" is fewer words than SmoothTlk's follow-up posts.


Seriously, how can any company be scared about answering a legitimate question with just the facts?


----------



## QQQ

You may be "an end user with no financial ties to any product" but you do web presentations for CQC for crying out loud. Let's be realistic. You aren't asking these questions because you are considering switching over to ML. So ML is correctly ignoring you, as any business would. And I'm not in ML's "camp" here, I'm just in this instance pointing out the silliness of you repeatedly challenging them for not answering your questions. And then stating that they are ignoring your requests for software.


Let's use an analogy and assume for the sake of discussion that instead of the current debate it was between me as a devoted Creston dealer repeatedly challenging an employee from AMX about their product...I've accused them of being less than ethical and made it very obvious where I stand. Now I ask them for copies of their software so I can "evaluate" it. Do you think I'll be checking the mail box every day for my shiny new CD Rom? Come on IVB







.


----------



## QQQ

p.s. as for your single question, you've asked about 100 single questions. No matter what point they stop/ped answering you, you can they say "see, he won't answer my simple question" just as you are doing.


----------



## IVB

Crestron doesn't come to where you hang out and advertise though, do they?


If Cinemar wants to bow out of this forum, i'll stop asking them questions. Until then, i'm going to continue and continue and continue.


----------



## smoothtlk

You can keep asking. And to what point? Quite honestly, you don't have to answer. I really don't care what the answer is, and won't respond. My concentration is on improving the company's products and helping our customers with their installs, not on responding to such obvious bash attempts.


----------



## IVB

Understanding facts behind how a product works is a bash attempt?


----------



## samgreco

You know, there are some of us here who ARE interested in these answers.


As someone who has not decided what direction to go, this discourse is somewhat important. And I am starting to get very turned off on ML.


I did not buy CQC before the price change because it does not yet fit my needs. Does ML? I'm not quite sure. I have been a bit turned off by the seemingly endless extra charge plugins.


So smoothtlk, I can almost understand your reaction to IVB. But I think you may be cutting your nose off to spite your face, as it were.


I do not have the "warm fuzzies" currently about your company.


Sam


P.S. please note that I am NOT in ANY camp. And I have not yet posted in this thread. AND I haven't spent any money yet.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samgreco* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You know, there are some of us here who ARE interested in these answers.
> 
> 
> As someone who has not decided what direction to go, this discourse is somewhat important. And I am starting to get very turned off on ML.
> 
> 
> I did not buy CQC before the price change because it does not yet fit my needs. Does ML? I'm not quite sure. I have been a bit turned off by the seemingly endless extra charge plugins.
> 
> 
> So smoothtlk, I can almost understand your reaction to IVB. But I think you may be cutting your nose off to spite your face, as it were.
> 
> 
> I do not have the "warm fuzzies" currently about your company.
> 
> 
> Sam
> 
> 
> P.S. please note that I am NOT in ANY camp. And I have not yet posted in this thread. AND I haven't spent any money yet.



You have peaked my interest in why CQC didnt fit your needs yet. Im having a little troubles with remote access of my server from different locations via internet since installing CQC, Im sure this is something I have done but it was all working fine before and I do alot of work on my server when Im hundreds and even thousands of miles away. Sort of like IVB using PPCs except I can bring up MainLobby instantly in another country and contol everything anywhere on the planet that has wireless connection. If I find I cant do this with CQC I would be shocked really. Sor far I cant even do what I was doing 5 minutes before I installed CQC. Again this is almost a guarentee that its something I did but Im not understanding why CQC would ever have anything to do with my network settings but obviously something was changed that needs to be changed back or addressed. The other simple thing I have not quite figured out is "standby" and Im not talking a manual setup standby by pressing buttons or issuing commands to do so. I will have many clients needing to go into standby and come out of standby and as of now I get error messages stating CQC will not allow me to do so. We lost power 3 days ago and its not back online yet but I have the server coming online with power so anything thats operating all the automation needs to allow ALL networked PCs to go in and out of standby automatically.


As far as running MLobby off a PPC, theres a guy doing it but I think this is something most people that try find it pretty clunky, sort of like when a couple people say Insteon is crap because they dont know how to properly install them and the next thing you know you have companies taking the approach of " well, a couple knuckle heads are burning up switches so we will place Insteon on the backburner for a couple years until THEY improve"


I have noticed one thing thats very interesting about both camps, if something doesnt appeal to them, F-you. Sorry to be so blunt but thats the reality. I want rich graphical interfaces that will be appealing and unique and when I read


> Quote:
> "Animation support in CQC is pretty light. It's just for simple stuff like blinking an LED and small things like that. It's been a low priority relative to a lot of other things, so I've not put a lot of time into improving it."



Im not sure this means Im stuck with the generic interface or some time in the future will I have interesting interfaces with movement and animations. MLobby and its flash based interface, the sky is the limit from what I understand and I plan on getting close to the stratosphere.


Im betting both camps have their strong suits, I am in the middle of seeing if they can run together on the same server but you have to pick and choose drivers because Ive seen conflicts already with having drivers/plugins loaded at the same time, mainly Insteon and USB-uirt. Im attempting to have both programs get along much better on my Server than they do in these forums.


QQQ, I think you and I are alot alike in the way we see stuff. I do wsh I had your experience in this field though. I would have some really cool things going on. I already do with Cinemar and was suprised considerng the way everything started out. I also have had great luck with the` few CQC things I have tried , Jandy Pool controller, Insteon, and USB-Uirt but thats all they support that I own at this time.


This is coming from a major newbie


----------



## QQQ

Edit: post Not directed at the one above.


I have a really really wild idea. If after reading through this 13 page thread a person still cannot make up their mind, how about contacting the companies in question and asking them your questions? Since when is a company obligated to answer endless questions in a thread on some third party website? I guess if I want to buy Oracle database software I should visit computing.net and ask questions and then complain that an Oracle rep doesn't continue to endlessly participate.


Let's clarify here - ANYONE can go to either website and download free evaluations for the products! And both companies have their own support forums! IVB complains that he can't get his arch nemesis to get him some trial software. How about clicking to their web site and clicking on any product and filling out the download form? Ooh wow, what an idea!

http://www.cinemaronline.com/mainlobby.html


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> QQQ, I think you and I are alot alike in the way we see stuff.



Here is my attitude Mark. There are not enough companies in this field putting out good solutions. Here we have two small companies offering some legitimate and good solutions. With a marketplace that's barely tapped and big enough for both of them. I just don't like seeing all the flaming (and I'm not claiming I'm any stranger to flaming







). How about some fun back and forth between the two? And let's suppose ML is not properly using the Weather channels stuff. Perhaps they were not aware and now they are trying to fix it. Or maybe they thought no one would notice. It's been brought up and everyone can evaluate whether they think it's a significant issue. Now let's drop it and move on. It's not like it's the equivalent of packaging 100 pirated DVD movies with their software where they could get sued and put out of business for it. I mean, what's the worst that's going to happen? A cease and desist letter.


I just see both products doing some nice things and think both can be argued in favor of by their followers without the flaming (to Dean's credit he has mainly stayed out). I tend to give the nod to CQC but don't have enough worthwhile experience with either to say I know what i am talking about.


This debate reminds me a bit of AMX and Crestron debates (in which I DO know what I am talking about







). Both products are very good and both can do more than most people would ever want yet you'll find *some* dealers for one totally trashing the other product as though one is Gods gift to mankind and the other sucks.


----------



## smoothtlk

QQQ, I agree. Common sense prevails when it is not for a biased purpose










A quick search for "PPC" and "smoothtlk" (my ID) on Cinemar's forum shows a thread second from the top that answers IVBs PPC support question. Like he didn't know already.... That is why we (I) am not answering IVBs attempt to bash questions. He doesn't want to know the answer, only an attempt to distract. Obviously succesful as Samgreco is getting misdirected by the noise. Cinemar just will not participate in an argument on AVSForum and compromise this forum's positive benefits.


But thank you again QQQ for the simple but best answer.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Let's clarify here - ANYONE can go to either website and download free evaluations for the products! And both companies have their own support forums! IVB complains that he can't get his arch nemesis to get him some trial software. How about clicking to their web site and clicking on any product and filling out the download form? Ooh wow, what an idea!
> 
> http://www.cinemaronline.com/mainlobby.html



Been there, done that. Matter of fact, I did that twice just in case my spam filter caught it, haven't gotten a reply.


----------



## QQQ

Well maybe they know it's you







.


ML, I seem to recall when I got a trial some time back having to wait a day or two before someone sent me a link. IMHO if you are going to offer an eval you really should let a person link to it immediately after they fill in the website form. Otherwise it only results in frustration when someone fills out the form expecting to be directed to the download, only to find out they have to wait til someone sends them a link. I'd also think having to manually send a link is a giant waste of your time.


----------



## IVB

No *maybe* about it - the email addr that I used was ivb_(blahblah)@[hotmail/yahoo/google/etc].com


I figured it was best to be blatant that it's me asking for a trial rather than use a newly made-up addr, perhaps that was a bad move.


----------



## QQQ

Next time you could try something less obvious like [email protected] or [email protected] .


----------



## smoothtlk

Agreed, QQQ. We are spending all of our resources to betterment of the product and not nearly enough on automating our website/ trials / shopping cart/ accounting. Directionally, this is where we want to be.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> I have noticed one thing thats very interesting about both camps, if something doesnt appeal to them, F-you. Sorry to be so blunt but thats the reality. I want rich graphical interfaces that will be appealing and unique and when I read



That's a pretty significant misrepresentation of the situation really. We can only do so many things, so we try to those things where the sets of 'what most people seem to need' and 'what we can reasonably do' intersect. Since very few people have asked for extensive animation, we've not concentrated it. Spending weeks and weeks on animation stuff instead of what our customers want/need the most would be an f-you, I'd think, not the other way around.


----------



## samgreco

Well, first MarkP,


The things that CQC does not (yet) do that will be an issue for me are, Playlist support, jukebox style, and UPB lighting support. I realize that they are both coming, but it's hard to spend money on stuff when you're unsure of how it will work.


These may seem like small issues, but the jukebox thing is mainly how I will be using it.


QQQ, smoothtlk,


I am indeed filtering the noise, as difficult as that is. I think that everyone involved probably needs to step back and remember that this isn't freakin' life and death and that we're talking about software and that BOTH PRODUCTS ARE GOOD. Any software product will either work for someone or it won't. Neither company has written the perfect application that will work for every person on the planet. Gees.


There's a side of me that hopes I find something completely new a different at CES in a couple of weeks, then I can unsubscribe from this thread.


Oh, one more thing...


QQQ, I found your undirected post a wee bit insulting. Please don't assume that i didn't go to both companies websites. I did, and do. I have spent ALOT of time on both forums to gauge the support the users give each other and the interaction of the developers.


I got the demo versions of both apps. I installed CQC and played with it for a bit. I then installed ML and spent a very short time with it. Then got distracted with real life for a few weeks. The trial ran out EVEN THOUGH I UNINSTALLED IT a day into it because I knew I wouldn/t have time. When I contacted Mario at Cinemar I was told there was no way to extend the trial. So I am faced with reformatting, yada, yada. I don't have time for that now. I don't think it would have been that hard.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samgreco* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> QQQ, I found your undirected post a wee bit insulting.



Sorry, point taken.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's a pretty significant misrepresentation of the situation really. We can only do so many things, so we try to those things where the sets of 'what most people seem to need' and 'what we can reasonably do' intersect. Since very few people have asked for extensive animation, we've not concentrated it. Spending weeks and weeks on animation stuff instead of what our customers want/need the most would be an f-you, I'd think, not the other way around.



I dont think people are asking about it because they cant do it and just go with the standard template interface we are all accustomed too, personally, I think as soon as someone is able to make an interface with flyins ( you already have pop-ups and this is what Im kind of talking about but with .jpg buttons and such) Im not even talking about making the animations in CQC but having them able to be assignable buttons using GIFs or something. Maybe its already doable because someone mention Ripper has moving fans and such.


Maybe alot of it is small amount of developers with alot on their plate, how many people are actually developing CQC itself, not drivers but the programming of CQC, if only Dean, do you have plans to expand to several developers as your base grows?


I just have an idea ofwhat I want an interface to look like and as long as these take to make it would be nice to atleast make them as close to something that wont take major alteration if flying, animated gifs and such are added


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe alot of it is small amount of developers with alot on their plate, how many people are actually developing CQC itself, not drivers but the programming of CQC, if only Dean, do you have plans to expand to several developers as your base grows?



You know, it's totally off topic, but I believe Microsoft has about 10,000 developers or some such hilarious number working on Windows. And they can't even get the off button right (they have gotten quite a bit of press for having 9 different options in Vista when someone selects Start/Turn Off Computer). I do not write software so I cannot make an informed comment but I honestly wonder if for a product such as Dean's more than one full time developer is required. Of course that's not to say that other developers working on things such as drivers, GUI etc. would not be a plus.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You know, it's totally off topic, but I believe Microsoft has about 10,000 developers or some such hilarious number working on Windows. And they can't even get the off button right (they have gotten quite a bit of press for having 9 different options in Vista when someone selects Start/Turn Off Computer).



I can see 10,000 developers in their product/s Windows ME, NT,Pro, home, tablet, mobile, Vista, plus they are constantly chasing hackers. Is auto update ever not updating? Considering how long it takes to write a driver or plugin for these products, I can certainly see 10Ks worth of employees working on something like Windows.




> Quote:
> I do not write software so I cannot make an informed comment but I honestly wonder if for a product such as Dean's more than one full time developer is required. Of course that's not to say that other developers working on things such as drivers, GUI etc. would not be a plus.



Unless he dies or becomes disabilitized somehow, The ultimate F-you ( again thats a little harsh but it seems this crowd has no trouble with things of this nature)


Im sure there are those out there that CQC is complete, and needs no further support but I see both companies needing all the developers they can afford. Im guessing its a tough trade to really get a good push in and word of mouth is key. Im not sure how you get even 10,000 customers to purchase your product. I could certainly see one of these products being snatched up by Microsoft for a cool 50 million or so if its stable and the graphical interfaces can be Windows Vista-ized. But part of the 10,000 employees are already working in this field. I know an Acoustical engineer who was kidnapped by Microsoft with a flash of cash and he cant even discuss with his friends what it is that he does at Microsoft. Makes for very interesting coversations concerning what you do 8 or more hours a day, not that any of us in this thread have jobs that anyone else on the planet would be interested in hearing about but........


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> we try to those things where the sets of 'what most people seem to need' and 'what we can reasonably do' intersect. Since very few people have asked for extensive animation, we've not concentrated it.



To further expand on this Im betting alot more of the general public would take a Windows Media or Vista interface over a static screen with buttons. Survey 100 people that have full house automation if design, just because those of us that want stable programs arent into graphics ( me excluded ) doesnt mean the people youre installing for dont want something that looks pleasant in their homes. I would like to give Deans interface a spin because it appears pleasant for my application but thats about it. Where are the screenshots of these interfaces that are going in 3 million dollar homes. Are there lead CQC and Cinemar integrators examples available to look at? Do they have websites and such where you can view what would be installed on your clients? I can think of 5 people right now that are waiting for this before they make final decisions. I really find it hard to believe no one cares about whats on the screen 24/7 and are happy with what Ive seen available. I saw a Creston screen about a week ago and it matched a 1995 Nintendo dashboard. Someone go to BestBuy or Circuit City and look at the Playstation3 and how it moves about through its multiple menus. Its 2007 people, most want interfaces matching whats being done behind the scenes. Sorry for all the video game stuff but they seem to have moved along with the times and are easy to look at in any store, even good ole Meedio was on the right track over a year ago.


----------



## Mike_W

If I want something to look like a videogame then I'll buy a PS3 or Xbox 360. If the PS3 didn't have good games to play then it wouldn't matter what kind of fancy interface it has, it would be dead. I purchased CQC for it's HA capabilities and the non-proprietary hardware it runs on. Throw in the top-notch customer support and it's a no brainer. I haven't really heard anybody say they would prioritize looks over functionality.


----------



## Mark P

And therefore since a pleasant client interface is VERY important to me and alot more than that, I attended a Home Theater meet yesterday and you would be suprised at the amount of people following build threads to see which route someone goes with automation and the first thing that is discussed is graphical interfaces, when I post a topic in a build thread, within 24 hours the views increase by 5 thousand waiting to see what unfolds, SandmanX will get a 10K hit within 24 hours and uses Cinemar and is happy enough for now with his interface but wants things to appear well designed and the two of us have spent hours discussing our disappointment in the stock interfaces and since we are a small group with little views other than a handful of us I will be frank and honest as to whats been discussed. Belly laughs have occured while browsing whats available and Im talking hours of this over the last 4 months. Tagged onto the two of us are several other folks tackling this same aspect but are sort of waiting to see how this developes and I guarentee user interfaces are as important as fuction. Dont kid yourselves into thinking whats good enough for people interested in automating toasters, is good enough for a million others.


As it sits now Cinemar is capable with a little tweaking to accomplish high quality interfaces using flash, this has been demonstrated with their T2 DVDLobby scene and when it comes down to operating your house with some PPC which only 5 people on the planet care about after witnessing the clunkyness of doing so, or having graphically pleasing interfaces, I think I might hold off on throwing around whos capable of doing what with their software when it comes down to the thousands of people on the fence waiting to see which program they are proceeding with. Dont fool yourself into thinking whats important to a handful of people is whats important to thousands and thousands of 'us'.


Im taking this stuff alot more serious than you all think because when I finally speak where it matters and demonstrate with video, I can promise increased sales because Im in contact with many waiting to see what the final outcome is. I met with 10 yesterday I wasnt aware that are following closely as lurkers


----------



## QQQ

Mark,


Is your primary issue that you want animations or that you want nicer stock interfaces? The latter seems like a no brainer to me (as far as being a strong selling feature) when Dean gets around to it. The former seems less important to me.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mike_W* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I want something to look like a videogame then I'll buy a PS3 or Xbox 360. If the PS3 didn't have good games to play then it wouldn't matter what kind of fancy interface it has, it would be dead. I purchased CQC for it's HA capabilities and the non-proprietary hardware it runs on. Throw in the top-notch customer support and it's a no brainer. I haven't really heard anybody say they would prioritize looks over functionality.



Really? Maybe you arent talking to the home owners then. We want both, not many times I see a Lamborghini stuffed into an 86 Honda Civic body. I never said looks first, functionality last. I said look at the video game industry and know they spend millions on developement of dashboards. Take a PS3 and have good games and throw a Sega Genesis front end on it and watch what happens. Better yet take any of the current interfaces available of whole house touchscreens on there and see whats said. Maybe the Wii could get away with it but doubtful. People laugh and joke about the Gaming community but they are larger than the motion picture community by leaps and bounds. Either company have a X360 plugin that operates their $159 HD DVD drive? No.......gaming doesnt appeal the the developers? Bad move, the HT meet I attended yesterday was hosted by someone who makes a rather substaintial living in the gaming field, infact we were demoed games that wont be released for another year, playable game after playable game. If what you say is true then maybe games would still look like the original Doom, I mean gameplay is all that matters right?


----------



## Mike_W

All I'm trying to say is that I feel that the core functionality of a program is MORE important than the GUI. Sure, I'd like to see the best interface possible, but not at the expense of functionality. For example, I rather see Dean work on native on-the-fly playlist/jukebox support before spending time on animation. I understand that you want both, but there's just not enough resources at CQSL to do both at this time.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Really? Maybe you arent talking to the home owners then. We want both, not many times I see a Lamborghini stuffed into an 86 Honda Civic body. I never said looks first, functionality last. I said look at the video game industry and know they spend millions on developement of dashboards. Take a PS3 and have good games and throw a Sega Genesis front end on it and watch what happens. Better yet take any of the current interfaces available of whole house touchscreens on there and see whats said. Maybe the Wii could get away with it but doubtful. People laugh and joke about the Gaming community but they are larger than the motion picture community by leaps and bounds. Either company have a X360 plugin that operates their $159 HD DVD drive? No.......gaming doesnt appeal the the developers? Bad move, the HT meet I attended yesterday was hosted by someone who makes a rather substaintial living in the gaming field, infact we were demoed games that wont be released for another year, playable game after playable game. If what you say is true then maybe games would still look like the original Doom, I mean gameplay is all that matters right?


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mark,
> 
> 
> Is your primary issue that you want animations or that you want nicer stock interfaces? The latter seems like a no brainer to me (as far as being a strong selling feature) when Dean gets around to it. The former seems less important to me.



Trust me QQQ, its not me, its thousands of us. Its not even an animation vs static, its bringing this stuff into the 2000's. Use MediaCenter with is as plain as it gets in my mind and compare it to whats available. Watch as it opens or changes to other scenes, you mentioned they have 10,000 employees working on it, well......... it shows. Load any interface available on either DIY product and the way the interfaces onto Media Center and see how many copies sell. If I were Dean, I would be looking for some young buck in the graphical aspects area and put him to work yesterday, I would bet the sales would increase more than enough to pay this guy. I know dozens that would jump right now. With animations I can get rid of most buttons ( all status buttons ) and I really think simple timed fade ins/outs could improve the feel. Do either company support faded sceneswhere as the one scene is fading out, the next scene is fading in. Pretty simple stuff I would want, not want but will have and if its not possible I need to keep searching some more. Most humans and mostly men are visually stimulated and sold on 32 Ford Coupes, 55 Chevys, 63 Vettes for an apparent reason and its not the way the 32 Ford performed on the track. I think this is pretty simple stuff, quit automating refrigerators, go outside and take a day looking at what people like. Trust me, Im not bashing anyone and if it looks this way I promise Im not, Im trying to say start thinking about other aspects of your software and be aware of what people want. Im trying to be helpful and relay information coming from John Q Public. I think one of the companies understands this and we know it certainly takes time to keep both aspects moving ahead. I think both companies could invest in things that run like this http://www.jbltour.com/ . This IS NOT what I want but this type of stuff that appeals to the masses, instead of photos, they are buttons or in my case pictures, 90% of my interfaces are photos


----------



## Mark P

Oh and the home theater meet I went to at the Gaming developers house was in the Theater, truly amazing and I was captivated by everthing including the guy who built it and his presentation. Take a wild stab at why it was not automated yet and guess what a main amount of the questions were aimed at me by the guests who are lurkers here at AVS, 50/50 on does it work and how are the screens coming along and by the way nothing but compliments made about both products but I did confirm I wasnt going to give either a go ahead until I had a workable user interface I wasnt embarressed presenting. The entire group was certainly interested in visuals


----------



## Mike_W

Sorry for the off-topic post, but I just clicked on Mark P's home theater link in his sig and it's pretty amazing. Great job on the home theater!


----------



## QQQ

Mark,


I agree the GUI should be as polished and beautiful as possible. I'm simply not sure that animation is desired in most instances. As an example, right now you are likely using Internet Explorer or Firefox. You want to surf the web. Do you want the buttons to dance and animate every time you press them? Personally I want to click on a link and have it load AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. That's what a touchscreen user *typically* wants (I'm NOT saying there are not exceptions). To draw on an analogy which I may have touched on earlier in this thread, it is well established that web surfers HATE Flash websites. They exist because of the egos of bad web designers, NOT because people want them. But Flash does have some great uses and could also for touchscreens.


Here is an example of a GREAT use of Flash (hover over any printer)
http://www.lexmark.com/lexmark/conte...html#selection 


Used with intelligence I'm all for animations - I just don't think it's a TOP priority but yes it should be on the roadmap.


----------



## QQQ

As a side note Mark the argument that "people want such and such" can go both ways and then examples are usually provided to back up what we ourselves want







. For instance, many people point to Google's tremendous success because they made the search page so ridiculously simple. So that could be sued to counter your argument (I'm not saying I would, just that it could). Similarly, look at the success of the iPod. Not a lot of "flash" there (I'm not talking about Adobe Flash anymore). Rather, very straightforward and easy to use. And as far as whether "good design" is important (it sure is to me), have you ever looked at My Space??? That's got just about every designer in the world turning in their graves but INSANE HORRIBLE design has not stopped it from being the #1 website in the world.


Anyhow my point is that I would not necessarily look to the gaming community for what the greater public wants in a touchscreen.


----------



## Dean Roddey

There are multiple issues involved here. One is graphics development and the other is animation. If you want a truely droolworthy interface, it can be done without a lot of animation. Contact someone like Layne at www.blueskyheart.com and work with him to create you a set of custom graphics. Look at some of his stuff under the Desk Pics link. It's absolutely gorgeous. It'll cost you a bit of course, but you'll end up with a completely one-off, absolutely drop dead gorgeous look. If you don't feel comfortable putting those images to work to create the optimum interface, then there are other folks who you can commission to do that. We do a little of that from time to time ourselves. He did our original logo, BTW, though I subsequently reworked it in Illustrator or our own purposes.


Animation is a separate thing from that. It's not required to create stunning looking interfaces. We clearly aren't against it. But seriously, it's not been emphasized by customers relative to other things. As soon as 2.0 was out, someone started a thread on stuff they'd like to see. No one has even mentioned animation in that thread yet.


So I'm not hallucinating or anything when I say that it's not at the top of the list for most customers. If it had been, then I would have already begun to address it before now, because I do listen to what our customers want. But I'll be putting some thought into it to see what can be done for a small amount of work now. We have done some in the cover art browser, which supports fade ins and shuffles and such of the cover art when you load a new page.


On the 'more programmers' front, we could certainly use more folks working on drivers. We could use a couple more on the core stuff, but you have to be careful because everyone in the software world knows that 1 + 1 in software development only equals ~1.9, and 2 + 2 probably equals ~3.5 and goes downhill as you crank up the number, when they are working on the same product. If they are working on comletely different things then downward trend only accrues within the size of that local team.


The nice thing about automation is that the drivers are very important and they are very separate things that can be worked on separately and requires minimal coordination with the core product work. So you can hire out driver work on a piece-work, mercenary basis if you have the bucks, and it doesn't matter if you hire two or twenty, the 'software math' problem won't apply in that case. And you don't have to incur the high cost of a full time employee to do it. So I'm sure that at some point we'll start doing that.


If we could offload the driver work to some qualified mercs who will do a good job, and leave me to deal with core functionality, that would make a huge difference. Of course, when we start talking about this kind of thing, then the price of the product becomes important and that's why we've implemented the recent price changes.


----------



## LathanM

I understand where Mark_P is comming from on this one. Sadly interface design is one of the things that gets overlooked in alot of products. For an example a little closer than video games take a look at the TiVo menus. Moving graphics, easy to understand and clean as can be. Now look an any other DVR interface. Most are flat and boring. Functionally it really doesn't add anything but from a user experience POV it adds alot.


Usability and design issues abound with all the options on the market including the major players. Each player handles them slightly differently. I am still waiting for a functional experience like we see in the movies 'Minority Report" and "Johnny Nmeumonic". Right now the closest you can get to that kind of interface is with a website. ML is a little further along that most on this front but that may have to do with the tools they chose to build the interface in.


----------



## Ripper99

I was one of the people many months ago that asked Dean for better animation support for CQC however it was not really for me..users had asked for animated weather icons and animated fan icons and I asked Dean if support of gif animations would be possible one day...this was *only* really mentioned by me to assist others with creating certain animations..I'm not sure I'd really use many myself.


Having designed hundreds of websites in my past life(95-2000) I'd have to say most customers could have cared less about animation or Flash design, some would ask for Flash occasionally but for the most part many found pre-loaders and stuff slow compared to a standard .html layout...I should also mention back then Flash was called FutureSplash Animation or something and .gif animations were more popular for use in webpages...when Flash did start getting used by more designers it was more of an annoyance than anything.


I'm not saying nobody wanted Flash but in my experience most did not want the site developed in Flash and many did not want blinky flashy sorta stuff going on and distracting or possibly annoying customers...personally I believe the tag should be outlawed or sold to NewsCorp for use *only* on MySpace.com 


CQC has a few fade effects and this and that for albums covers, stuff I honestly don't use..I'm looking to play a song quickly and could care less about my album covers fading in/out..its a nice feature and I'm sure some people love it but personally its not for me.


A good example..ATM machines years ago you would walk up put in your card and a few button's pressed you got your cash and your out the door, nowadays I encounter new ones where you put in your card you are forced to watch an advertisement before putting in your PIN..then while its just about to give me my money it feels the need to play yet another advert and slow down the process..the way I see it..just shut the hell up give me my money and quit wasting time trying to sell me Cheetos or something.


I'm not sure about others but a touchscreen is cool and all but really do you sit around to watch the animations? Some of the best designers in the world don't need animations to look good..TreeTog has been designing quality GUI's for many years and most of his stuff doesn't need animation to make you take notice of his talent..in fact he designed the JRMC interfaces which in my opinion are a poor example of some of the stuff he does.

http://www.treetog.com/index.php?pagina=portifolio 



Last but not least I have to admit I laugh everytime I hear someone mentioning how with Mainlobby its so cool when the wind arrow moves on some dial depending on the wind or your barometer changes or something silly like that?


Umm just to point out something *VERY* obvious you are not seeing nothing incredible especially considering your weather data is being scraped from weather.com every X minutes so let me ask...do you all just sit around for lets say 15 minutes till new data is scraped with your freinds and go "Look! Look! did you see the arrow move from N to NW...WOW! thats so sweeeeeet" ...come on guys..please don't tell me this impresses the wife or your freinds










Perhaps if you really wanna do Flash weather invest in a *real* weather station and see your wind direction and everything in *real time* at the exact spot your home sits and not the airport 20 miles away or updated every 15 minutes where you have to sit and stare at your touchscreen..sheesh

http://www.weather-display.com/wdlive.php 


Pick a site here where it might be windy to see what I mean

http://www.weather-display.com/index3.php 


Sure beats sitting around for 15 minutes waiting for a wind needle to move











I think subtle animation is nice at times BUT I'd rather have a product that runs well and is functional than worry about if it's animated and crap is flying in and out of the screen or fading in and out when I want to perform simple commands.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As a side note Mark the argument that "people want such and such" can go both ways and then examples are usually provided to back up what we ourselves want
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . For instance, many people point to Google's tremendous success because they made the search page so ridiculously simple. So that could be sued to counter your argument (I'm not saying I would, just that it could). Similarly, look at the success of the iPod. Not a lot of "flash" there (I'm not talking about Adobe Flash anymore). Rather, very straightforward and easy to use. And as far as whether "good design" is important (it sure is to me), have you ever looked at My Space??? That's got just about every designer in the world turning in their graves but INSANE HORRIBLE design has not stopped it from being the #1 website in the world.
> 
> 
> Anyhow my point is that I would not necessarily look to the gaming community for what the greater public wants in a touchscreen.



Point taken Q and you hit it on the head but............ show me a straight up static interface type of guy that wouldnt want flyins, fade ups and fall outs. I think theres a serious amont of folks wanting their interfaces replecating the actions being performed behind the button, Im not sure animation is the correct word here anyway. Im not sure what the proper definition is and Im takling most shortcomings with akward use of fadeins on overlay buttons but its not proper. I think gamer consoles are perfect examples, the XBox 360s would work fine for me as an interface with better fonts, does anyone here own a X360? I really hope drivers are being worked on for these devices since they have powerful HD drives which produce great results, The 360 has downloadable HD movies and the chatter is they may be the first to implement first run features DLed for $20 when the MPAA can make sure they arent losing money because they really dont care if Regal Cinemas sells enough popcorn to stay in business.


I think gaming is overlooked as childish and not reliable as a source for what the masses want. As I said before, they put much more into research of this than you know, controller design takes years and PS3 is taking a huge hit right now because they went on the cheap and the word is spreading that this was a major flaw and yes people will say no to things they dont like. Dean could really use a break from CQC Im sure, go down and buy a X360 and mess with it, see how the Dashboard works and then write a driver that controls the 360 ( hint: hint: ) people are using these and not just kids, they are mobile media expanders and much, much more. I know Mario already owns one and I think he and the others are looking into whats envolved with writing a plugin. If my interfaces could even come close the their dashboard, Id be set. And for those that want a challenge in writing a driver/ plugin you need not look any further in a challenging nightmare than that. If Im not mistaken the average age of 360 owners is between 20 and 30 years old and the elderly gents at the meet yesterday were having a blast with the demonstrations and very impressed with what they had never cared about before. The Wii demonstrations were really hilarious and we were playing actual tennis and such.


----------



## Ripper99

I guess everybody has their own tastes and what they like and dislike, over the years game menus and GUI's surely have evolved and look nice but..have you ever watched two kids or even two adults who play games when they start a game.?


Basically something like this happens in about 1-2 seconds


...game begins


You'll notice most kids and even the adults do not even pay attention to the screens, they quickly learn within a few games how to get the game restarted in the quickest fashion.



> Quote:
> show me a straight up static interface type of guy that wouldn't want flyins, fade ups and fall outs



Hi my names Ripper...supposedly I'm a static interface kind guy 


MarkP don't get me wrong..I agree some people do want things like this will others get really annoyed by things that delay them even a millisecond, a good example is new lighting technologies..people have used flip switch's for most of their life so if these things don't react instantly like a normal toggle and turn on/off instantly..some will ***** and complain with delays of 500ms.


Using IR repeaters..a person is used to their hard remote doing instant channel changes, with a repeater their may be a teeny delay..I assure you my wife notices something like that and I do also.


Compact florescent bulbs..while they do save energy and last alot longer than normal bulbs many do not like the delay when turning them on or the light they cast compared to normal bulbs and the fact special brands need to be bought for dimming.


All these things are simple examples of some things people like/dislike, I'm all for people having animations slide ins popups etc but if it in anyway impacts the quality of a product and makes it sluggish for all users it won't get my vote at all.


I could name 100 other quality things to do to improve CQC instead of making it look and act like Xbox 360, I do not at all look at gaming or game designers as childish and knew many programmers who worked for EA in Vancouver while I lived their..they were one part of the game design but the people who designed the artwork/3D/sound etc were a whole different crew.


I do like having simple confirmations that I have pressed buttons, or having graphics changed when something happens like power on/off I really don't think it would matter at all if they fade in and out.


Popups really are only handy to me to be able to fit more controls on one screen without having to drop down levels while navigating..quick popup do whats needed and it closes..if its gonna have to fade into a popup and waste a few seconds I really don't want it, that would be sorta like using a normal hard button remote and each time you press a button you have to wait?


Slide in/out windows yes they could be handy and I'm sure I might use a couple for special things but I think a little is better than alot in my opinion...sorta like phone ringtones where they were neat at first but now you have people that have ringtones that they seem to let play while standing in line at the grocery store or bank..phone in their hand but they need to wait 4-10 seconds before hitting the talk button to sorta say like "Hey look I just bought this cheezy ringtone...whatcha think"?


----------



## thartigh

Ripper, for me I dont sit around looking at the screen but I mostly use all of my screens for visual reference of what is happening around the house. My home page only has buttons to nav to the basic things. The rest of the screen is a fancy floorplan and a pic of the house edited to look like sketch drawing. It has a button to switch between front view and back view.


Sure I could just use a red or green dot for status but thats not very appealing to me. If the fan is on, a image of a fan is rotating, if a motion sensor goes off then red rays scan back and fourth to show motion was sensed, door of the mail box moves with mail flying inside, and my soon to be taken from markp is when the hottub is on steam will be rolling off the tub.


These are very basic things that are easliy reference by a quick look and anybody knows what they are and mean. If you have ten lines of text with a red or green button, you may be able to look quick but what about a guest.


Not needed, but very nice to look at when I do.


Forgot to mention that I agree, I dont look at anything that delays a selection. although I do like the basic stuff that MCE uses. Very quick and looks nice.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thartigh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> These are very basic things that are easliy reference by a quick look and anybody knows what they are and mean. If you have ten lines of text with a red or green button, you may be able to look quick but what about a guest.



Exactly..keep it simple and use what works for you 


I know if I made some templates for when my mom visits and things are flying in and out like a Xbox 360 or sliding up sliding down and popping up the first thing shes gonna be doing is running to get her glass's 


When in doubt they say to always refer to the KISS principle









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was one of the people many months ago that asked Dean for better animation support for CQC however it was not really for me..users had asked for animated weather icons and animated fan icons and I asked Dean if support of gif animations would be possible one day...this was *only* really mentioned by me to assist others with creating certain animations..I'm not sure I'd really use many myself.
> 
> 
> Having designed hundreds of websites in my past life(95-2000) I'd have to say most customers could have cared less about animation or Flash design, some would ask for Flash occasionally but for the most part many found pre-loaders and stuff slow compared to a standard .html layout...I should also mention back then Flash was called FutureSplash Animation or something and .gif animations were more popular for use in webpages...when Flash did start getting used by more designers it was more of an annoyance than anything.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying nobody wanted Flash but in my experience most did not want the site developed in Flash and many did not want blinky flashy sorta stuff going on and distracting or possibly annoying customers...personally I believe the tag should be outlawed or sold to NewsCorp for use *only* on MySpace.com
> 
> 
> CQC has a few fade effects and this and that for albums covers, stuff I honestly don't use..I'm looking to play a song quickly and could care less about my album covers fading in/out..its a nice feature and I'm sure some people love it but personally its not for me.
> 
> 
> A good example..ATM machines years ago you would walk up put in your card and a few button's pressed you got your cash and your out the door, nowadays I encounter new ones where you put in your card you are forced to watch an advertisement before putting in your PIN..then while its just about to give me my money it feels the need to play yet another advert and slow down the process..the way I see it..just shut the hell up give me my money and quit wasting time trying to sell me Cheetos or something.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about others but a touchscreen is cool and all but really do you sit around to watch the animations? Some of the best designers in the world don't need animations to look good..TreeTog has been designing quality GUI's for many years and most of his stuff doesn't need animation to make you take notice of his talent..in fact he designed the JRMC interfaces which in my opinion are a poor example of some of the stuff he does.
> 
> http://www.treetog.com/index.php?pagina=portifolio
> 
> 
> 
> Last but not least I have to admit I laugh everytime I hear someone mentioning how with Mainlobby its so cool when the wind arrow moves on some dial depending on the wind or your barometer changes or something silly like that?
> 
> 
> Umm just to point out something *VERY* obvious you are not seeing nothing incredible especially considering your weather data is being scraped from weather.com every X minutes so let me ask...do you all just sit around for lets say 15 minutes till new data is scraped with your freinds and go "Look! Look! did you see the arrow move from N to NW...WOW! thats so sweeeeeet" ...come on guys..please don't tell me this impresses the wife or your freinds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps if you really wanna do Flash weather invest in a *real* weather station and see your wind direction and everything in *real time* at the exact spot your home sits and not the airport 20 miles away or updated every 15 minutes where you have to sit and stare at your touchscreen..sheesh
> 
> http://www.weather-display.com/wdlive.php
> 
> 
> Pick a site here where it might be windy to see what I mean
> 
> http://www.weather-display.com/index3.php
> 
> 
> Sure beats sitting around for 15 minutes waiting for a wind needle to move
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think subtle animation is nice at times BUT I'd rather have a product that runs well and is functional than worry about if it's animated and crap is flying in and out of the screen or fading in and out when I want to perform simple commands.



Out of the gates that Treetog website is exactly what many of us waiting on the fence DONT want and youre right, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that stuff would be nice on a screen in a 10 year olds room. We arent wanting stupid My Space crap or zinging around badly designed junk, we want this

http://www.rocktraum.com/ 

http://www.benji.hu/assive/ 

http://www.donalisioaudioproductions.com/main.htm 

http://aroots.com/newMain.php?lang=en 

http://www.aandesigners.com/flash/v3/ 

http://www.adamvonmack.com/main.html 

http://www.bee-creations.com/welcome.html 


I do understand though where someone would want to disregard the power of Flash to further a cause but seriously this stuff take a few seconds because your downloading the actual stuff, if everythings loaded its instant so all the talk about waiting .0005 of a second for a button appears is more appealing than a guest in my home search through 500 buttons on a static page. To each his own but I personally like any of these example over anything Ive seen and definately over that Treetrog stuff, yuck with an exclaimation.


But I do understand your position on wanting static images and dull, depressing interfaces. Still waiting to wowed by anything Ive seen. Actually Lathan from this thread has a nice set hes working on and I would like to use in some areas of the house until I figure this all out but to say most would prefer static is so far off its not even reasonable. In the last couple hours I have come into contact with 15 people of all types and said " hey you got a second I need your opinion" not one picked the tretrog over a couple of those Flash sites. Im guessing but from my scientific experiment maybe 1 in a hundred may want static pages full of 50 buttons. I did find humor in your post though in thinking I want ding dongs and twirly dos zinging about. More like the pool page has a pic of the pool and when in pool mode the water appears moving with a simple animation, the temperature fades in and out in a way where you have to know its there to read it, as in a 53 that fades up a light blue that barely distiquishable. When I touch the house I fade back to Main page. If the heater is on a simple animation has a light steam coming from pool. When I touch the spa a nice popout gentely slides out with a couple nice button options. Actually no buttons is what I really want and will accomplish one way or another. My lighting already is.

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/experience/ 

http://aroots.com/newMain.php?lang=e 

http://www.donalisioaudioproductions.com/main.htm


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MarkP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> show me a straight up static interface type of guy that wouldnt want flyins, fade ups and fall outs.



ME ME ME ME ME



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Exactly..keep it simple and use what works for you
> 
> 
> I know if I made some templates for when my mom visits and things are flying in and out like a Xbox 360 or sliding up sliding down and popping up the first thing shes gonna be doing is running to get her glass's
> 
> 
> When in doubt they say to always refer to the KISS principle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle



YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES


Uh, yes.


I would rather blow my brains out than have auto-magic animation in my interfaces, mainly because my complete anti-techie in-laws who end up babysitting most of the time wouldn't get their glasses, they just wouldn't use it, and then the wife would blow my brains out b/c they'd refuse to ever babysit again. (hmmm. Perhaps smoothlk should contract with Dean to put flash into CQC, and get rid of everyone's problems)


MarkP - you cannot possibly imagine how far your desires are from mine, I want all my stuff to be simple and straightforward without any weirdness going on. As of the time of writing of this post, meaning late 2006, my inlaws just wouldn't get animated interfaces. Heck, they've only gotten ok with using a mouse in the past 2 years. Perhaps in 3-5 years they'll understand flash type stuff, but until then, i'd rather have something very simple and static.


My target audience is my family & relatives who live within 10 miles: A 55yr old montessori school teacher (doesn't like ATMs); a 60yr old architect; a 35 yr old actor (terrified of his iPod); a 30 yr old clerk (learned how to use a mouse 12 months ago); a 31yr old Oakland School public teacher (pretty good with spotting guns).


They are about as far away from gamers by ANY comparison you can possibly imagine. The first time they hit a button and something animated happens, they'd jump back. The 2nd time they'd chuckle. There would be no 3rd time because they'd just smile & mutter something about "That darn Vivek's system - i just don't get it. All these spinning logos and stuff".


But I'd advise you not to ask what they think when I handed them my cellphone PDA and had THEM turn on/up the heat in the house from a restaurant before we all headed home. It was the anti-clunky, such is the power of a network-based architecture.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thartigh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ripper, for me I dont sit around looking at the screen but I mostly use all of my screens for visual reference of what is happening around the house. My home page only has buttons to nav to the basic things. The rest of the screen is a fancy floorplan and a pic of the house edited to look like sketch drawing. It has a button to switch between front view and back view.
> 
> 
> Sure I could just use a red or green dot for status but thats not very appealing to me. If the fan is on, a image of a fan is rotating, if a motion sensor goes off then red rays scan back and fourth to show motion was sensed, door of the mail box moves with mail flying inside, and my soon to be taken from markp is when the hottub is on steam will be rolling off the tub.
> 
> 
> These are very basic things that are easliy reference by a quick look and anybody knows what they are and mean. If you have ten lines of text with a red or green button, you may be able to look quick but what about a guest.
> 
> 
> Not needed, but very nice to look at when I do.
> 
> 
> Forgot to mention that I agree, I dont look at anything that delays a selection. although I do like the basic stuff that MCE uses. Very quick and looks nice.



Thank you, now I know theres two of us that are crazy and want flowing interfaces a child or 80 year old gradparent can navigate, I want to flow and if flowing takes 5 seconds Im happier than being stuck with the norm. I DO UNDERSTAND why people love the static thing. One of the CQC guys has a Rack System thats as impressive as they come but when I look at that I want to go get 15 Saharas and place them on a wall like a rack and use it that way, now that to me would be very attractive, not jumping from onescreen to the next. Im glad theres another nutjob like me out there and I hope to get with him and discuss how to accomplish this so we can exchange ideas and help eachother get through this phase. Once someone points the way I am all over it. Mario said he will look at what I finally decide from a Flash site and see if it incorperates smoothly into Mainlobby exchanging jpg for actual invisible buttons which is already easy enough. But I dont think any of this is possible but Im keeping my fingers crossed


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Im guessing but from my scientific experiment maybe 1 in a hundred may want static pages full of 50 buttons.



Static and 50 buttons aren't related issues. The latter is a matter of design and is unrelated to whether the interface is static or animated. CQC already supports slide out or popup interfaces to access things if you like that style.



> Quote:
> Thank you, now I know theres two of us that are crazy and want flowing interfaces a child or 80 year old gradparent can navigate, I want to flow and if flowing takes 5 seconds Im happier than being stuck with the norm. I DO UNDERSTAND why people love the static thing.



Same as above. They are different issues. Understandability of an interface is really orthagonal to the static/dynamic axis. You can do understandable and incomprehensible displays either way.



> Quote:
> I have come into contact with 15 people of all types and said " hey you got a second I need your opinion" not one picked the tretrog over a couple of those Flash sites.



This really isn't a fair comparison. You'd really need to ask them after they've had to access each one a few hundred times, while in an hurry. That's the issue here. If you just show them the pages once, already loaded, that's not really the criteria that peole will use to judge the effectiveness of a design that they have to interact with constantly. In that case, they are generally reacting to visual design, not to usability.


In the long term, usability is more important (though they of course don't have to be mutually exclusive.) There's obviously a middle road there, where you can have some small amount of animation and whatnot that adds to the design flair without becoming annoying.


----------



## LathanM

UI design is tough and it comes down to what each person likes. I said it eariler I would kill to have a fully interactive interface with 3d rendered objects that react beyond the normal tri-state (up, down, over) where the interface doesn't fee like it was an after thought or an oversized handheld remote control. Right now I can, and am, building this with ML since the bones of it are already there. Does it mean that it is better, no just that it fits my idea of how an interface can work.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ME ME ME ME ME
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES
> 
> 
> Uh, yes.
> 
> 
> I would rather blow my brains out than have auto-magic animation in my interfaces, mainly because my complete anti-techie in-laws who end up babysitting most of the time wouldn't get their glasses, they just wouldn't use it, and then the wife would blow my brains out b/c they'd refuse to ever babysit again. (hmmm. Perhaps smoothlk should contract with Dean to put flash into CQC, and get rid of everyone's problems)
> 
> 
> MarkP - you cannot possibly imagine how far your desires are from mine, I want all my stuff to be simple and straightforward without any weirdness going on. As of the time of writing of this post, meaning late 2006, my inlaws just wouldn't get animated interfaces. Heck, they've only gotten ok with using a mouse in the past 2 years. Perhaps in 3-5 years they'll understand flash type stuff, but until then, i'd rather have something very simple and static.
> 
> 
> My target audience is my family & relatives who live within 10 miles: A 55yr old montessori school teacher (doesn't like ATMs); a 60yr old architect; a 35 yr old actor (terrified of his iPod); a 30 yr old clerk (learned how to use a mouse 12 months ago); a 31yr old Oakland School public teacher (pretty good with spotting guns).
> 
> 
> They are about as far away from gamers by ANY comparison you can possibly imagine. The first time they hit a button and something animated happens, they'd jump back. The 2nd time they'd chuckle. There would be no 3rd time because they'd just smile & mutter something about "That darn Vivek's system - i just don't get it. All these spinning logos and stuff".
> 
> 
> But I'd advise you not to ask what they think when I handed them my cellphone PDA and had THEM turn on/up the heat in the house from a restaurant before we all headed home. It was the anti-clunky, such is the power of a network-based architecture.



I actually used youre interfaces for scientific examples and didnt want to admit that but your stuff came up as the most complicated and confusing of anything I have ever seen, I can navigate with ease but I would love to wager any amount your interface would always come across as the most difficult to understand. Im guessing you havent seen the latest generation of game consol interfaces but a monkey can navigate them. Your missing the point, I dont want the PS3 as my interface but I want it to move smoothly and gracefull like they do with clear objectives right there in front of your eyes. I dont want Jingle jangles and wizzy pops flying around and the whole aninmated spinning fan to me is nothing short of comical. Now the wide angle photo thats up on the screen of my Den to select which light I want to turn on so it looks like its actually happening ( This is happening now with ease) and if I did infact have a fan spinning it would be in the room and appearing to very slowly spin, no hokie animated ding dongs happening here I can assure you. Your entire post has me put me in a rather good mood though, I got quite the chuckle at how far off base you are but it did give you a chance to snipe at Cinemar and distract attention from laziness of trying to proceed with what would be appealing to millions of people. So far we have what, 3 or 4 people that think and are persuaded pages with 50 buttons and status lights make sense. I could spend 1 hour on the phone and flood this thread with hundreds that would inform you exactly which style is appeasing and easy to use. Keep up the good fight though, but hopefully Dean realizes that decent interfaces will make his product explode. I know we all want him doing other things but it seems he has CQC rocking and rolling pretty good and a good group seems to be working on Drivers ( all hail Jonathon) but I would take a serious look at something as simple as scenes fading and maybe your popups are already editable enough to be usable and have jpg instead of goofy icons. I can only hope and pray.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> I actually used youre interfaces for scientific examples and didnt want to admit that but your stuff came up as the most complicated and confusing of anything I have ever seen



Well, to each his own, but the actor & the montessori school teacher would disagree with you. I'm not designing for someone like you - i'm designing for someone like them.


They needed almost zero instruction in how to use my interfaces, and when shown all the other options, their eyes glazed over. I showed them MANY, incl ripper's (sorry), ellisr63's, Cinemar, and MCE.


I didn't stumble onto my UI, it's been a year in the making, and has withstood the test of time by those that matter most to me: The wife & her family. I had a little experiment when 2.0 first came out where I used an interface much like the others, and to say it was a colossal flaming failure would be an understatement. They literally walked away from it, and said 'let us know when you put the old ones back up. We liked those'.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But I do understand your position on wanting static images and dull, depressing interfaces. Still waiting to wowed by anything Ive seen. Actually Lathan from this thread has a nice set hes working on and I would like to use in some areas of the house until I figure this all out but to say most would prefer static is so far off its not even reasonable. In the last couple hours I have come into contact with 15 people of all types and said " hey you got a second I need your opinion" not one picked the tretrog over a couple of those Flash sites. Im guessing but from my scientific experiment maybe 1 in a hundred may want static pages full of 50 buttons. I did find humor in your post though in thinking I want ding dongs and twirly dos zinging about.




Like they say..to each his own 


I'm not sure you looked at many of the links you posted but I'll just say this one as an example http://www.benji.hu/assive/ 


I can assure you as long as it takes for that flash to load and then each time you click a graphics crap flying around and taking what 2-3 seconds to display..if that how you want things to work fine.


As for the Treetog stuff in a 10 year olds bedroom..I guess that your thoughts and you opinion but *obviously* Nintendo Europe and Nvidia think he has talent

http://www.treetog.com/index.php?pag...tifolio&page=3 


PC Magazine, Stardock also seem to pay him for graphics

http://www.treetog.com/index.php?pag...tifolio&page=4 



Mark just so you know I am far from anti-flash and while it has its uses I will say flat out it can easily be overdone and some of the links you posted are prime examples..in no way are many of those sites efficient in my personal opinion...which I'm entitled too.


I'm sure many of the fancy things you do want can be designed but I *assure* you a price will be paid..if money is no object send Mario an email and I'm sure he can come up with something for you for a price but I doubt he will whip it up in a week and have it for sale.


You have a style you like, I have a style I like but I assure you I've designed graphics of all styles for many years for a fee whether I like them or not...it was my job.


Just for reference the Xbox 360 interface took two years to design..it was built for one product and I assure you it cost more than a couple of hundred dollars to create.

http://www.designinteract.com/features/xbox/ 


Just as an example...if you hired these guys below to create your site or lets say a GUI interface to look and function like theirs it would cost $50-75k USD minimum on the low scale.

http://www.2advanced.com 


Hopefully you wont think this design firm is made for 10 year olds, they have many high end clients such as


Alpine

Eidos

Electronic Arts

ESPN

Ford

Fox

Fujitsu

Land Rover

Lexus

Motorola

Nintendo


And the list goes on..they primarily design in flash but most of the stuff they are doing costs more than a mere mortal can afford or has the time to design..some of the stuff I think you are wanting cannot happen overnight or even in months and even if it could be made ina month nobody is gonna design it to suit one persons taste unless you pay the full fee.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> http://www.rocktraum.com/
> 
> http://www.benji.hu/assive/
> 
> http://www.donalisioaudioproductions.com/main.htm
> 
> http://aroots.com/newMain.php?lang=en
> 
> http://www.aandesigners.com/flash/v3/
> 
> http://www.adamvonmack.com/main.html
> 
> http://www.bee-creations.com/welcome.html



To each his own. Those are what I call self obsessed sites where the graphic designer is telling me non-stop "look what I can do, I can make the page dance around, isn't that neat".


The MOMENT I visit a site like that I click away because I find the use of Flash SO overdone and obnoxious. They represent a complete and total triumph of form over function. Going back to my earlier point, I'll argue that there is a very good reason you will not find a SINGLE large company (IBM, Dell, anyone) with a website like that. Because people don't like them. If my touchscreen did that I'd break it in two







. I'd rather use a One for All







.


----------



## Mike_W




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The MOMENT I visit a site like that I click away because I find the use of Flash SO overdone and obnoxious.



LOL!







I actually stopped loading this page http://www.benji.hu/assive/ because it took too long to load. I feel the exact same way about Flash sites.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Like they say..to each his own
> 
> 
> I'm not sure you looked at many of the links you posted but I'll just say this one as an example http://www.benji.hu/assive/
> 
> 
> I can assure you as long as it takes for that flash to load and then each time you click a graphics crap flying around and taking what 2-3 seconds to display..if that how you want things to work fine.
> 
> 
> As for the Treetog stuff in a 10 year olds bedroom..I guess that your thoughts and you opinion but *obviously* Nintendo Europe and Nvidia think he has talent
> 
> http://www.treetog.com/index.php?pag...tifolio&page=3
> 
> 
> PC Magazine, Stardock also seem to pay him for graphics
> 
> http://www.treetog.com/index.php?pag...tifolio&page=4
> 
> 
> 
> Mark just so you know I am far from anti-flash and while it has its uses I will say flat out it can easily be overdone and some of the links you posted are prime examples..in no way are many of those sites efficient in my personal opinion...which I'm entitled too.
> 
> 
> I'm sure many of the fancy things you do want can be designed but I *assure* you a price will be paid..if money is no object send Mario an email and I'm sure he can come up with something for you for a price but I doubt he will whip it up in a week and have it for sale.
> 
> 
> You have a style you like, I have a style I like but I assure you I've designed graphics of all styles for many years for a fee whether I like them or not...it was my job.
> 
> 
> Just for reference the Xbox 360 interface took two years to design..it was built for one product and I assure you it cost more than a couple of hundred dollars to create.
> 
> http://www.designinteract.com/features/xbox/
> 
> 
> Just as an example...if you hired these guys below to create your site or lets say a GUI interface to look and function like theirs it would cost $50-75k USD minimum on the low scale.
> 
> http://www.2advanced.com
> 
> 
> Hopefully you wont think this design firm is made for 10 year olds, they have many high end clients such as
> 
> 
> Alpine
> 
> Eidos
> 
> Electronic Arts
> 
> ESPN
> 
> Ford
> 
> Fox
> 
> Fujitsu
> 
> Land Rover
> 
> Lexus
> 
> Motorola
> 
> Nintendo
> 
> 
> And the list goes on..they primarily design in flash but most of the stuff they are doing costs more than a mere mortal can afford or has the time to design..some of the stuff I think you are wanting cannot happen overnight or even in months and even if it could be made ina month nobody is gonna design it to suit one persons taste unless you pay the full fee.



I do like the beji stuff and yes its slow but purposely so wile downloading is occuring, this could be instant with loaded images and such, infact most of those site when revisited are lightning fast. As I said about treetog, Nintendo...... I rest my case as far as target audience is preteen to teen. The graphics are absolutely first rate no doubt, just not my style ( I think weve confirmed everyone likes different things)


Why do you think I brought up XBox 360? You can tell who knows design and ease of use and navigation, gamer consoles nail it no matter how and who de-values their genious and research into what EVERYONE wants, someone mentioned kids rush as fast as possible out of dashboards and into games, not true considering the 360s capabilities which mirror what we are doing with our interfaces, I see no difference.


And yes I have spent time on your last link, infact I spent alot of time there and linking to their clients, very impressive. This is what I want, the problems not paying someone to do the design, the problem lies in whether a program can handle it or not. I think both you and I know what and where eachother stand on this issue and can lean towards eachother in agreement that some things would be nice and some things would take too much to develope. Im in full understanding but think Dean should know there is a H U G E base out here waiting for 360 type interface. You design webpages and graphics , I design Resorts, Homes, Historic Store fronts, Theaters, Aviaries, Elaborate Boat docks for multi Yachts application, basically three dimensional objects in the real world but step back a hundred feet and we both fit the same needs. Of anyone I figured you understod where I was trying to go with this. You know Im not going for some trashy looking interface with ding doinks and chit flying all over.


----------



## Bauer83




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do like the beji stuff and yes its slow but purposely so wile downloading is occuring, this could be instant with loaded images and such, infact most of those site when revisited are lightning fast. As I said about treetog, Nintendo...... I rest my case as far as target audience is preteen to teen. The graphics are absolutely first rate no doubt, just not my style ( I think weve confirmed everyone likes different things)
> 
> 
> Why do you think I brought up XBox 360? You can tell who knows design and ease of use and navigation, gamer consoles nail it no matter how and who de-values their genious and research into what EVERYONE wants, someone mentioned kids rush as fast as possible out of dashboards and into games, not true considering the 360s capabilities which mirror what we are doing with our interfaces, I see no difference.
> 
> 
> And yes I have spent time on your last link, infact I spent alot of time there and linking to their clients, very impressive. This is what I want, the problems not paying someone to do the design, the problem lies in whether a program can handle it or not. I think both you and I know what and where eachother stand on this issue and can lean towards eachother in agreement that some things would be nice and some things would take too much to develope. Im in full understanding but think Dean should know there is a H U G E base out here waiting for 360 type interface. You design webpages and graphics , I design Resorts, Homes, Historic Store fronts, Theaters, Aviaries, Elaborate Boat docks for multi Yachts application, basically three dimensional objects in the real world but step back a hundred feet and we both fit the same needs. Of anyone I figured you understod where I was trying to go with this. You know Im not going for some trashy looking interface with ding doinks and chit flying all over.



Just to add some support to your statement, but even for myself I would have loved if CQC could use flash to to bring up the interface pages. I personally have absolutely no graphical talent, but my brother is just a genius with flash and graphics (I am the engineer of the family, he is the artist). And the ideas and graphics we could produce for me, especially with animation, would be stunning. This also allows for the professional finish that will sell systems, when that same finish can be put beside a sub 1500 priceline. I bought CQC as I can make it do what I want for now, and control things the way I want. However, if I was able to have my brother design a flash interface for me with the same buttons that I have, the results would be stunning.


----------



## LathanM

One sidenote on load times they are relative to your connection speed. Remember you are going to be serving pages form a local server on your LAN so expect alot faster load times.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mike_W* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually stopped loading this page http://www.benji.hu/assive/ because it took too long to load. I feel the exact same way about Flash sites.



The ONLY and I mean ONLY reason I waited for that site to load was because Mark linked to it and I wanted to see what it was he liked. What a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE site (sorry Mark







)! Man, they break EVERY rule of good website design in the book! This is one of my pet peeves so it is easy to get me going. You click on a link and the damn links all jump around! Give me a fracken break!!!


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To each his own. Those are what I call self obsessed sites where the graphic designer is telling me non-stop "look what I can do, I can make the page dance around, isn't that neat".
> 
> 
> The MOMENT I visit a site like that I click away because I find the use of Flash SO overdone and obnoxious. They represent a complete and total triumph of form over function. Going back to my earlier point, I'll argue that there is a very good reason you will not find a SINGLE large company (IBM, Dell, anyone) with a website like that. Because people don't like them. If my touchscreen did that I'd break it in two
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I'd rather use a One for All
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Yeah , they are self obsessed and thats what appeals to me, I like the fact someone took more than 20 minutes to whip something up. So much so that the more complex someone makes something but done with grace and ease really earns my respect much more that a square with 50 buttons and youre right you wont find a single company like Dell or IBM using Flash just a mountain of others like pointed out by Ripper, take a look at the link he provided and their clients, a couple of them make Dell look like an enterprising paper boy or Lemonade salesman, Im pretty sure ole Rupert would get a chuckle out of people dont like Flash and pizzaz even when done tastfully simple and to the point.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The ONLY and I mean ONLY reason I waited for that site to load was because Mark linked to it and I wanted to see what it was he liked. What a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE site (sorry Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )! Man, they break EVERY rule of good website design in the book! This is one of my pet peeves so it is easy to get me going. You click on a link and the damn links all jump around! Give me a fracken break!!!



Its not that I like THAT, trust me when I say I did a google search on top 10 flash sites and those ten came up. ( turn off the music it really ruins the experience)


You guys know what the heck I am saying, quit toying with my emotions







If I had found exactly what I wanted you would all be the first to know, as I said I was lazy and linked to those, they are all from the first page I found I was so lazy but you get the point, yes I would like some fading between scenes and I want the LEAST amount of buttons possible, If I can have a white screen on a white wall and as I pass my hand over a nice subtle picture and have a nice subtle popup fade out nicely full of other nice pictures ( not nintendo icons) Im a happy camper. You guys are toying with me and Im going to have to get off my rear and bring the heat here very soon.


Dont make me go take pictures of that GAWD awful Crestron screen I saw last week, it hurt so bad after the 15 minute belly laugh at how completely void of any type of design or functionaity it had, and it was in a wonderful setting and destroyed the entire room/s


----------



## QQQ

Sorry, I thought you said those were some of the stuff you really liked. I have a bad habit of skimming. Ya, the stuff that Ripper link to contains some super cool stuff, that's for sure. Not crazy about the navigation but who couldn't say wow as far as some of the effects and graphics go.


----------



## mcascio

Mark - I'll send you a link to some animation I did for MainLobby's BackgroundFX layer back in 2002. They may be outdated, but it might provide some ideas. They were designed to sit in the background.


MainLobby already has sliding menus which actually are very sweet for something like the Russound and selection a specific Zone. It provides one button to serve multiple purposes and utilize very little real estate. This is key for smaller screens like the Q1 and TabletKiosk.


----------



## mcascio

BTW Mark. Put the text fadeIn in your MLCmd line and you'll see the buttons fade in on loading of the scene. Been there for years as well.


----------



## Mark P

Mario,

you already know Im insane and do a fairly good job of calming the beast by explaining a couple doses of Jack Daniels may ease my expectations but darn it, I want some cool stuff and Im gonna cry like a wittle baby until I get it.


In reality I am still hunting for the perfect thing you and I were talking about but theres always something I dont like about the pre-designed Flash sites. still looking, when I get time


----------



## mcascio

Mark,


You've got mail.


No problem - send it over and I'll look at whatever you come up with.


As I've mentioned to Mark on the phone, I also prefer fast changes between scenes for the power-user...but when the friends come over, I'd prefer to show them the bells and whistles version complete with soundFX, animation and the whole shebang. If anyone remembers MainLobby 1.0 - it shipped with a precanned scene that had a metallic opening panel complete with SoundFX and background Music.


We've got a neat idea we may start on for giving demos to visitors that I think the guys with touch screens will love.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcascio* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW Mark. Put the text fadeIn in your MLCmd line and you'll see the buttons fade in on loading of the scene. Been there for years as well.



You know I already do this, and darn it when are my ramp rates on my pictures going to be exactly the ramp rates in real life? Just kidding, I can sacrifice a tiny weenie bit of accuracy but dang it wheres my fading scenes, I havent got that to work.


I admit I have a fairly workable solution using Cinemar, a couple tweaks and a lesson or two in Flash animating and I think I can design what I want. I see it in my head but cant find an example anywhere to demonstrate what I want, I think I have company in that regard


----------



## smoothtlk

What one can do with Flash is a tool in the toolbox. A hammer can do great damage in the hands of a hack, or can build a real nice gazebo in the hands of a craftsman.

I just provides another dimension of capability.

Safe ways to implement flash are to mimic what people see and feel in the 3D real world. That makes the user interface intuitive. The real world isn't static images, but a world with motion. Automation by it's name involves action which many times equals motion.


----------



## mcascio

Mark,


We've got some things in MainLobby 3 already that allow the user to have a slider control the alpha level of any of the layers but not necessarily the whole scene. I would say that would be pretty tough. Because you would want the next set of buttons to be visible before you start fading. I'd have to look at the feasability of this. To be honest though, up until recently, we've really been developing for the slowest machines. With the introduction of the UMPC devices, it is now possible to develop animations. A full screen animation though can be taxing even on the more robust systems. I've played around with some other ways to make the full-screen speed up and be more efficient, but its way too early in development and may never make it to market.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You design webpages and graphics , I design Resorts, Homes, Historic Store fronts, Theaters, Aviaries, Elaborate Boat docks for multi Yachts application, basically three dimensional objects in the real world but step back a hundred feet and we both fit the same needs. Of anyone I figured you understod where I was trying to go with this. You know Im not going for some trashy looking interface with ding doinks and chit flying all over.



Actually thats what I did between 1995-2000..I am in a totally different business now..I do this stuff for a hobby.


I do understand what you want Mark but its doubtful either CQC or Cinemar is gonna foot the bill to have any company design custom graphics anymore than they already do.


Mario designs most of the graphics for Cinemar as you know, not everybody likes them and thats why they allow users to make their own and as you know its not all that simple..you are also free to code your own Flash to work with Mainlobby if you sign an NDA but once again..its not easy at all and I cannot see Mario coding much for individual users and instead they will code/design in Flash for a mass market and hope it sells...


CQC basically the same thing, Dean includes free graphics with the product and the users contribute free graphics, Dean does not do any Flash graphics that I am aware of but he does eat and sleep code and thats why I eventually went with CQC for its features and reliability..the graphics thing I could do on my own for what I wanted so CQC and the amount of graphics that came with it meant nothing at all to me...I needed features/reliability instead.


Lathan has also done some great stuff for Mainlobby and he is like me and contributes everything he can for free but thats about all you can do, I'm sure both of us if given time could imitate the look you want but if we aren't doing it for ourselves and we aren't being paid you know how long that lasts...personally I'm no Flash master, I own the program and have used for years but it doesn't make me money so I don't spend much time with it..hell I have no idea why I keep paying hundreds to even upgrade it 


Other control systems like Crestron and AMX started out the same way..the control worked really well but years ago some of the graphics they had looked like crap and Crestron/AMX were also very static and even today many companies that employ these control systems use the stock Crestron templates..when I lived in Vancouver many Yachts had these control systems and had people designing graphics that were not stock..for $300-500 cdn per hour and I can assure you the graphics were nothing to write home about and were not animated or flash or anything..its looked like chit as you call it and they were paying people to create custom interfaces for $300-500 per hour 


Like I said I do know what you are looking for but its very doubtful either Mainlobby or CQC will have it anytime soon..even making static graphics with either product can take weeks for people with graphics experience, even if you were to go with Crestron or AMX things are not much different you will just be paying more.


While both products offered packaged functionality to do most things if you want to go anything beyond what they offer in the package you would likely have to offer to pay and even then neither company is gonna stop working on their product to create interfaces one customer desires.


They are looking to make their product better so it sells and I do not believe everybody cares about how the program looks if it doesn't run reliably or is sluggish.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Safe ways to implement flash are to mimic what people see and feel in the 3D real world. That makes the user interface intuitive. The real world isn't static images, but a world with motion. Automation by it's name involves action which many times equals motion.



Ooh dat deep. Whether it's deep philosophically or deep as in I need my hip boots I will not say.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What one can do with Flash is a tool in the toolbox. A hammer can do great damage in the hands of a hack, or can build a real nice gazebo in the hands of a craftsman.
> 
> I just provides another dimension of capability.
> 
> Safe ways to implement flash are to mimic what people see and feel in the 3D real world. That makes the user interface intuitive. The real world isn't static images, but a world with motion. Automation by it's name involves action which many times equals motion.



Nice,


I want that little touchscreen to be an extension of whats going on and I wont go all Opra on you all but I think scenes need to fit their atmosphere. I can see myself loving the scenes with the red and green buttons and all the other knobs and sliders and doo-hickeys and I am a geek that loves this stuff as much as the next guy but my scenes arent being displayed in a Foundry or Electrical Substation, their going in a home for Gods/Buddha/Allah/Zeus's/ Gorgon or whatever the scientoligist thing is sake.


And I wasnt fair to IVB, his graphics with the water drops and figures he made are very appealing, the % signs and all the other stuff just doesnt fit the decor no matter how easy it is for everyone he knows. Its not that its not easy, its just too much information and information that can be displayed with other means as to not make my eyes dart around for 20 minutes trying to figure out what Im looking for.


I like Deans stuff and wish we could see it all somehow, come on Dean, give it up, I have a specific room that fits to a 'T'


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What one can do with Flash is a tool in the toolbox. A hammer can do great damage in the hands of a hack, or can build a real nice gazebo in the hands of a craftsman.
> 
> I just provides another dimension of capability.
> 
> Safe ways to implement flash are to mimic what people see and feel in the 3D real world. That makes the user interface intuitive. The real world isn't static images, but a world with motion. Automation by it's name involves action which many times equals motion.



David lay off the Christmas wine already....is this something like your *sheen* you have on flash buttons.











One second Marge I'm trying to mimic what people see and feel in the 3D real world with my flashy touchscreen program


Homer..have you been drinking again?


Marge I only drank a little teeny bit of the christmas wine..honest


----------



## QQQ

You know ripper, when I saw your name just now I swear before I clicked I knew you were going to have posted something with Homer.


----------



## LathanM

Ripper, thats for the compliment. I do comtirbute alot of what I do freely for personal use so it is no big deal since the work is already done. I also work on commissioned things that I wont release to the public. I could but it is sotr of a karma thing.










The deciding factor on what I design is based on the limits of the tools I have to use. The back end side is pretty straight forward and is mostly limited by the equipment I am controling. But the front end is where all the real fun is. This is the wow factor that makes people want to use the system. I said it awhile ago ML is closer to giving me what I want but there are still some things it can't. Are they important now, not really. They can get me close to what I want. Could I go the same things in CQC, probly not but that doesn't really matter either. I would modify my concepts to work within the limitations of the product. The point of all of this is you design for the medium you are working with.


----------



## Dean Roddey

From a purely business standpoint of course there is no comparison. If you have customer A coming to you and he says I have this and that and the other device, can you control those, and you say no, then that conversation is over. If you support those devices, but you don't support heavy animation, that's barely going to be a blip on the radar in comparison, at least as long as you can do very attractive interfaces, which clearly can be done with mostly static displays.


So from a business standpoint, when it comes time to distribute the time over things to do, fundamental functionality like device support, better ways to create automation logic, etc... have to come first. Those are the drop dead limitations on who can/will make use of your product. Particularly in the professional market, I think that core functionality will be far more important, again as long as you can meet a certain level of attractiveness.


Working on automation thingies would be fun for me, since it's much simpler and convenient than a lot of other things I generally have to do. But I do have to concentrate on the things that are preventing people from being able to buy (like the new RFID stuff) before anything else. Lack of animation really isn't stopping many people from buying. Not supporting their hardware (UPB) or fundamental functionality (RFID) stuff definitely is.


I do of course sometimes 'take some time off', meaning I work on something fun for a bit instead of what I need to be. I'll see about using some of that time to provide some things in this area.


----------



## LathanM




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Nice,
> 
> 
> I want that little touchscreen to be an extension of whats going on and I wont go all Opra on you all but I think scenes need to fit their atmosphere. I can see myself loving the scenes with the red and green buttons and all the other knobs and sliders and doo-hickeys and I am a geek that loves this stuff as much as the next guy but my scenes arent being displayed in a Foundry or Electrical Substation, their going in a home for Gods/Buddha/Allah/Zeus's/ Gorgon or whatever the scientoligist thing is sake.
> 
> 
> And I wasnt fair to IVB, his graphics with the water drops and figures he made are very appealing, the % signs and all the other stuff just doesnt fit the decor no matter how easy it is for everyone he knows. Its not that its not easy, its just too much information and information that can be displayed with other means as to not make my eyes dart around for 20 minutes trying to figure out what Im looking for.
> 
> 
> I like Deans stuff and wish we could see it all somehow, come on Dean, give it up, I have a specific room that fits to a 'T'



I am in the same boat as you on this one. Each scene is designed for a specific location and purpose. So in my case the entryway scene is totally different that the kitchen one I am working on, the theater one and the portable one. To me it just doesn't feel right to have 1 interface look for everything. If the room you are putting the screen is is done is greens and blues then the scenes should match the look. In my house every room is done on it's own theme so my scenes match the feel.


One last odd thing I also have different scenes for parties and special events. I am working on ones now for my Superbowl party. Will anyone at the party really notice it, probly not but i know it is there.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> I am in the same boat as you on this one. Each scene is designed for a specific location and purpose. So in my case the entryway scene is totally different that the kitchen one I am working on, the theater one and the portable one. To me it just doesn't feel right to have 1 interface look for everything. If the room you are putting the screen is is done is greens and blues then the scenes should match the look. In my house every room is done on it's own theme so my scenes match the feel.



It's interesting how diverse the population is - I got very much the opposite mandate from the wife, and boy do I mean mandate. She wants absolutely the same interface in all rooms, so folks don't have to think as much as possible. Even though she thinks the interface is pretty darn clear & simple, she doesn't want more than 1 of them. Don't even get me started on what she thinks of Flash.


But, from the descriptions above, I suppose it's my family that's a bunch of nuts.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's interesting how diverse the population is - I got very much the opposite mandate from the wife, and boy do I mean mandate. She wants absolutely the same interface in all rooms, so folks don't have to think as much as possible. Even though she thinks the interface is pretty darn clear & simple, she doesn't want more than 1 of them. Don't even get me started on what she thinks of Flash.
> 
> 
> But, from the descriptions above, I suppose it's my family that's a bunch of nuts.



The interface should always, generally speaking, be completely consistent from room to room. It's always good to remember that we geeks do not remotely reflect the real world. In the real world the interface should be totally consistent from room to room. In my *opinion*







.


----------



## QQQ

p,s, But I should note that I am referring to the operational part of the interface. If someone wants to make the colors on each screen match the theme of the room, great.


----------



## Ripper99

If I had a megabuck budget to create a custom touchscreen interface I would hire http://www.nrg.be to do my graphics and sound effects and of course the voice overs..they've been around for years and if you've followed Flash since it started you've probably heard Peters voice..he is very well known for his voice overs.


They sell some of the coolest sound effects packs I know of http://ultrashock.com/shop/index.php 


It all comes down to exactly what you want and how big your wallet is, anything you want can be designed for a price.


----------



## samgreco




> Quote:
> It's always good to remember that we geeks do not remotely reflect the real world.



One of the truest statements yet in this thread. I have to tell myself that daily.


Well, not daily, since my wife picks up the slack...


----------



## Mark P

Ok QQQ,

After all the heat I received of flash, please, please, please tell me youre no installing this crap in peoples homes http://www.crestron.com/features/touchpanels/ 


I know of no one and I mean NO one that would want this, maybe my 16 year old son. Talk about a fraken mess, this is exactly what I would never want and that is exactly what would scare people ( guests ). For all the grief I handed IVB, the centers of his interfaces are pretty close to the stuff Im talking about ( his figures and waterdrops screens could look good in different rooms )


Also the talk about nobody asking about doing decent screens is hogwash, JKMonroe was wanting to duplicate Media Center so his friends and family would quit complaining about the interfaces. This is exactly what I am saying, Media Center, X360, PS3, some TIVO ( not the new DirecTv tivo, that designer needs to be strung up)


Its simple fades from one button to the next, the " no one ever asked for this" Im hearing is because theres hundreds and hundreds of people not buying this stuff because it does look the way it does, theres a couple people on this forum that if they post a software is not good because it cant do this or that, that company will never sell another copy again, or very few copies. This was done with a certain Screen company that was gouging people for shade screen and passing it off as 10K super screen. Well, someone found a better shadescreen and sold 1000 screens in a few short months and is now working with IMAX and other world wide Theaters on replacing their current screens. The guy tested everyshadescreen available and found a good combo mixing a type with a color and nailed it.


First of all theres millions of DIYers that arent going to pay 10K,50K, 100K and 300K if they know they can do it for 3K-20K themselves



> Quote:
> It's always good to remember that we geeks do not remotely reflect the real world



You got that right, the reason your not "hearing" people ask for nice GUI is because those people arent looking into your products because you dont offer it and personally feel its not important. I could flood this thread with people that think these user interfaces are horrible, the first question Im asked is always " You figured out how to make nice interfaces yet?" For every person that doesnt want to wait .0005 or even 2 seconds for the interface, theres millions that want Media Center style graphics. Heck, Meedio was doing this how long ago? Nobody ever asks, no they dont, they are spending too much time trying to figure out how to automate a garbage can. You guys have not even scratched the dust off the surface of people that would buy these products.


Keep telling yourselves that what your small inner circle wants is what everyone wants or take a day or two and make a scene fade in, up, down, just add a simple movement or allow animationed objects to be placed with an invisible button/widget or whatever you call things here and youre done, Now someone can make a decent interface, take a Camtasia shot of the interface in action, distribute this to three different people and out of the fifty thousand views this will get in a 24 hour period, I think you may be paid for the inconveinance you suffered through for that day or two you werent messing with UPB.


Ive never got a reply but Dean are you doing everything by yourself and whats needed for you to unload this massive undertaking onto a couple other programers? Are you nervous about the employee taking the goods and starting his own business aspect or just feel 2 hours of sleep a night is sufficient. I guess I am just wondering why you dont releive yourself some workload onto a couple others


----------



## Mark P

This thread has had 6K measley views in how long now? Theres a couple threads around where if someone posts decent user interfaces, there would be that many views in one night.


Coocoontech or where ever you target audience is located can even imagine the power of the Dedicated Theaters section of AVS forums


----------



## samgreco

Mark P,


I think you may be over-estimating the market for this a bit. Especially at the prices that this type of software NEEDS to sell for. In my circle of friends and aquaintances, I don't know of another single person that cares about this issue. Most of them think that a Bose Wave Radio is all they would ever need. Not ONE has any kind os home automation or audio distribution.


So saying thousands would jump on it, think might be a bit of a stretch.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ive never got a reply but Dean are you doing everything by yourself and whats needed for you to unload this massive undertaking onto a couple other programers? Are you nervous about the employee taking the goods and starting his own business aspect or just feel 2 hours of sleep a night is sufficient. I guess I am just wondering why you dont releive yourself some workload onto a couple others



I'll take the liberty of answering for Dean. I believe everyone that works with Dean is aware Dean pretty much "is CQC". In a few years Dean has established a small but loyal following. It's his full time gig and I think it's safe to say he has not even come close to recouping his time/investment in it yet. Until recently he pretty much lived off of his savings from a past job as most CQC users were beta testers. Now he's doing everything possible to meet market demands and take it to the next level. I'm quite sure as soon as circumstances allow Dean will be happy to bring on new employees. Based on the speed of the advancements being made with CQC, I see no evidence that additional developers should be a primary concern for Dean at this point and CQC monies would be much better invested in other areas.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok QQQ,
> 
> After all the heat I received of flash, please, please, please tell me youre no installing this crap in peoples homes http://www.crestron.com/features/touchpanels/



That's just a link to a catalog of touchscreens. No interfaces shown or anything so I have no idea what your point is. We create all of our own interfaces.


----------



## Mark P

Who would think 1000 audio transparent screens would sell to DIY theater builders. 600 bought the day I offered up my review on a 14' screen as compared to A Stewart Studiotek and another major Audio screen. Again this is an Audio transparent screen, not a solid screen so this is serious people. I sent my screen to a HT meet that consisted of some of the CRT movers and shakers and they about fainted when they saw what was possible with CRT and Audio Transparent screens, guess how many more sales were made when that circle discovered what was possible. The reason I had to send my screen was because the owner is so over whelmed with orders he couldnt get a screen out fast enough so he called me and asked if I could do him a favor since I had such a large peice and they wanted a 12' screen and some sample to distribute.


I can tell you people want this automation stuff but with 300K bids from AMX and Crestron, its forgotten about. Dont underestimate yourselves, integrators and DIYers are different but DIYers are as rabid and geeky as all of us. Im personally in contact with a dozen people right now that are waiting for my final comments ( just like the AT screens, which the owner of this forum now owns and promotes) and this doesnt include the lurkers I met at the Gaming developers Home Theater Meet, It was really suprising to meet 65 year old men saying " Are you Mark? Ive been following your progress for......." about 10 arent even members that post, not to mention they are at A Meet based on Gaming. Get just a few graphical things happening and I will bet things will change, you guys have the nuts and bolts part moving pretty good, just a little can do alot.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's just a link to a catalog of touchscreens. No interfaces shown or anything so I have no idea what your point is. We create all of our own interfaces.



Got a link or a picture of yours or others screens? I would figure Crestron would have some examples somewhere to choose from, The limited ones Ive seen or them and AMX looked like integrators designed what they felt was necessary for the customer and not what the customer really wants but are stuck with. Of course tech geeks want buttons and such but 2 million dollar homes with a 12" touchscreen full of buttons can ruin the best of room, Ive seen this many times. Colors help but Im not talking colors, Im talking making the interface match whats going on behind the interface. You walk into a wonderful Theater someone spent alot of time getting a certain look or feel only to see some touchscreen that looks like it was designed by Crayola front and center. Im coming to you guys as a customer who talks to alot of other customers frequently and we dont like large remote controls on a screen, we need to automate the automation, streamline if you will. Graceful flowing graphics that ease in and out and match the decor of the home, not a Nuclear Reactor


----------



## LathanM

I found an interesting thread on the XLobby boards and it cought my attention. it is a addon skin for the weather that changes the background based on the weather. Kind of neat.

http://www.xlobby.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5126 


This a good idea of the kind of things I would like to see. Instead of just having static content make it dynamic and blend in with the system. This could easily be done with most systems but no one is really doing it. Can you imagine the having the the rain in the weather scene move and the lightning flash or have the sunlight/moonlight move across the screen with the time of day. I realize it isn't a necessary part of the design but really no graphics are. They are just there to enhance the experience.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'll take the liberty of answering for Dean. I believe everyone that works with Dean is aware Dean pretty much "is CQC". In a few years Dean has established a small but loyal following. It's his full time gig and I think it's safe to say he has not even come close to recouping his time/investment in it yet. Until recently he pretty much lived off of his savings from a past job as most CQC users were beta testers. Now he's doing everything possible to meet market demands and take it to the next level. I'm quite sure as soon as circumstances allow Dean will be happy to bring on new employees. Based on the speed of the advancements being made with CQC, I see no evidence that additional developers should be a primary concern for Dean at this point and CQC monies would be much better invested in other areas.



Understandable,

Lets say Deans product was installed in every new home over 500K in say.............Portland Oregon, would he then need some help. So Deans customers are making bank of Dean while Deans works his arse off making integrators mega money. If Deans product is installed in 200 homes by installer A, then whats his take? This isnt Crestrons business model, If a crestron system is installed by you, Crestron gets a kick back. Dean needs individual licenseing then and each and every license pays him $XXX.XX or $XXXX.XX


Whos approaching me ( design/build Generals) when I wasnt a personally employed and had competition, none of us were approached by anyone. Im guessing Deans advertising is here and coocoontech then. It needs to be forwarded to Developers and Generals and Architectual or those integrators that approaching these types. Theres Backers out there that will back you for 10% for X amount of years to get you moving. I know where Dean is right now and its frustrating and you have good days and bad but he could use a friendly backer then it sounds like. Theres people out here that dont care if it take 5 years as long as they like your presentation and product and it appears he has that foundation. Im just offering up advice as to what my customer/s would want if I would install this in the 30 million dollar projects Im working on. No biggy though, my input seems to being brushed off as what an individual wants and not what everyone wants but I assure you I have been presenting both these products to people that would/will maybe use these products because we plan on implementing this or Crestron/AMX into all of our projects and all of our projects are seen by others working on projects just like this. I had the Cinemar stuff rolling the other day and one of the largest electrical contractors in the area was over and we spent about an hour messing around with it and he was truly impressed as compared to the product hes using now which you QQQ are very familiar with. He had just finished a 3500 sq. ft. job and was charged 52K for nothing but lighting and he installed the switches and ended up with a couple touchscreen that control lights ONLY. He was frothing at what he was seeing here as compared to what hes been getting. Hes very interested and when complete wants all the particulars to start up his own employee installing these things commercially and residential. This is one guy, a biggy, but one guy in one desolate area of nowhere. I could contact dozens and have them stop by and give a 5 minute demo and pricing and product would be sold.


Lucky enough I had fades adressed to all buttons on all screens to mimick a decent layout but I was far from what could have been accomplished with a slight bit of animation.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Got a link or a picture of yours or others screens?



Sorry no. We've invested over 1000 hours in our Crestron interfaces and since we don't sell them (i.e. sell the interfaces) and since they contain what I like to think are some fairly novel features, we don't post screen shots.


As for third party, I guess you could look at www.guifx.com .


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LathanM* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I found an interesting thread on the XLobby boards and it cought my attention. it is a addon skin for the weather that changes the background based on the weather. Kind of neat.
> 
> http://www.xlobby.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5126
> 
> 
> This a good idea of the kind of things I would like to see. Instead of just having static content make it dynamic and blend in with the system. This could easily be done with most systems but no one is really doing it. Can you imagine the having the the rain in the weather scene move and the lightning flash or have the sunlight/moonlight move across the screen with the time of day. I realize it isn't a necessary part of the design but really no graphics are. They are just there to enhance the experience.



Nice, very nice infact. make this very subtle and you have a winner. When you touch a button it may even move slightly or expand into the scene itself. Proceeding to research this guy. Cinemar is very close, Im too busy to mess with Flash so Im recruiting my son to play with it


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Understandable,
> 
> Lets say Deans product was installed in every new home over 500K in say.............Portland Oregon, would he then need some help. So Deans customers are making bank of Dean while Deans works his arse off making integrators mega money. If Deans product is installed in 200 homes by installer A, then whats his take? This isnt Crestrons business model, If a crestron system is installed by you, Crestron gets a kick back. Dean needs individual licenseing then and each and every license pays him $XXX.XX or $XXXX.XX



I suspect that so far very little of Dean's income comes from integrators. Of course Dean gets xxx for every license for an integrator, so for every home he would get his fee, otherwise what's the point (of even selling the product)? I have not read the rest of your post yet.


"Making integrators mega money"? That's a joke right?


----------



## LathanM

Well I think I have finally found the interface I am wanting now if I could just get a copy of it. This is by far the coolest thing I have ever seen when it come so a GUI.

http://www.maniacworld.com/3d-gui.html


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry no. We've invested over 1000 hours in our Crestron interfaces and since we don't sell them (i.e. sell the interfaces) and since they contain what I like to think are some fairly novel features, we don't post screen shots.
> 
> 
> As for third party, I guess you could look at www.guifx.com .



My point exactly


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LathanM* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well I think I have finally found the interface I am wanting now if I could just get a copy of it. This is by far the coolest thing I have ever seen when it come so a GUI.
> 
> http://www.maniacworld.com/3d-gui.html



What plugin runs this? Firefox cant find it.


I think you and I and maybe one other guy want the same thing so I would like to see this


----------



## QQQ

No problems with my version of FF. It's an embedded windows media player file.


----------



## IVB

I don't think the nuts & bolts are covered yet by a long shot. There's a few areas where both companies need to spend more time. Once these are covered, then they can satisfy your mega-cosmetic urges.


1) Single screen for all video entertainment. I still need to use 2 different UI's to choose between recorded TV shows and DVDs. Neither company offers this, although there is some good work being done on beefing up the SageTV TCP driver for CQC. (TVLobby doesn't have integrated PVR, does it?)


A consolidated UI is one of the MOST desired bits of a true HA/HT system. Folks would suck up a static screen if they could have this.


2) Truly integrated VR technology, so you can toss your dang flash-based UIs. Neither company does this natively right now. And yes, I know the hardware is expensive, but for MarkP's megabucks comparison, they'll throw down $3K for VR. Doing this would make the reliance on static screens that much more acceptable.


3) Simpler tools to build interfaces. Both companies could do MUCH in the way of making it easier for folks to use their products. I'm apparently the 1 person on the planet not allowed to use ML3, but I know with ML2 I pounded my head against the wall just trying to get basic stuff working. And CQC could be much easier too - Dean pointed out his areas of perceived weakness, there's a great "post 2.0" feature requests thread on the CQC forum .


Looking at the above, where do you think either company would get more revenue?


A) Ability to create flashy interfaces

B) A consolidated video rendering engine that you can use your voice to control that's easy to use?


Hint: If you're not sure what the answer is, see the dot-com bust of 2000, and what happened to all those companies with the spinning logos on their sites and 800K pages that took 60 seconds to download, but nothing under the covers cuz they wasted their $$ on high priced flash guys like ripper







.


----------



## smoothtlk

Lathanm, I am sure you know, but developing that active background based on Weather (or any other data) is very easy to execute in MainLobby. Would take a few minutes once your graphic was done (or if you asked the XLobby user for permission to use his ).


----------



## Ripper99

MarkP I checked your link here http://www.crestron.com/features/touchpanels/ and think you are referring to the template graphics on the screens? Thats pretty much what Crestron provides for free and as well AMX provides the same sort of graphics.


Other companies design template packages also and resell them such as http://www.guifx.com/ , as far a I know nothing sold by guifx has Flash integrated..just static graphics.


I'll be the first to say making graphics that please everybody is not easy to do and surely nobody is gonna waste their time doing it for free unless of course they are doing it already for themselves..


I'm not sure you've ever worked with any graphics artists but most won't do anything commercially until they have money in hand and the same goes with web design, many times you will get clients that ask for a certain look and you begin design and after 40-60 hours of true work you will have the client tell you "You know..I don't really like that..maybe lets try this instead" and then they will go off and ask for a totally different redesign but oddly most seem to think they don't owe you for the 40-60 hours work.


One of the reasons I got out of web design and graphics in general was these sorts of problems, quite simply you cannot please everybody and most seem to think you should just work endlessly for free till you draft something they like...while its one thing to provide samples based on a persons ideas its quite another for them to tell you over and over what they want and then you do this and they say...nah thats not what I want lets do this instead!


I find my current job much less stressful and the pay nowadays is way more than its worth for me to waste my time doing graphics unless I'm doing them for myself where nobody will ***** that they look like something for a 10 or 16 year olds room, sometimes I like sitting around wasting time and drawing random things or sometimes I draw stuff for myself and post it for free that way nobody can ***** because its free 


People have asked me to create graphics many times and usually I try to avoid this or taking on any sort of project because it just isn't worth it and I'd rather just do things for free if I can help someone...anybody that has worked in web/graphic design and worked for 1-2 weeks at a promised rate and then has the person stiff them knows what I mean..when that happens you only option is to sue and usually thats gonna cost more than its worth so you take the loss.


As an example the stuff sold on GuiFX.com for say $500 a template..thats more than fair but if someone asked me to do that same sort of thing in colors they wanted and then they would say but I only want a few extra buttons and this changed and that changed I would most likely ask for a $1-2K cash deposit before I even considered beginning..as soon as I would accomplish what they first laid out I would then ask for another deposit and then another and not proceed with any more work until the money was in my hand or the check cleared...sorta like how a lawyer makes sure he has the money in case you suddenly disappear or go to jail 


I was burned many times of the years for web/graphic design and it was one the main reasons I left the business and didn't want anything to do with it for years..some seem to think you'll just work for free when realistically the pay rate is $40-500 usd per hour...if some big wheel doesn't wanna pay for my time and all he want to do is ***** the he can go elsewhere, however if he wants to be the big wheel and ***** all day while I work then hes gonna have to pay 


I'm sure we all know people who sit on their ass all day and make $50-100 an hour while others work as slaves for less than $10...one thing I know is the guys making $10 an hour aren't over here at AVS right now posting in the forum


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Once these are covered, then they can satisfy your mega-cosmetic urges.
> 
> 
> Truly integrated VR technology, so you can toss your dang flash-based UIs. Neither company does this natively right now. And yes, I know the hardware is expensive, but for MarkP's megabucks comparison, they'll throw down $3K for VR. Doing this would make the reliance on static screens that much more acceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the above, where do you think either company would get more revenue?
> 
> 
> A) Ability to create flashy interfaces
> 
> B) A consolidated video rendering engine that you can use your voice to control that's easy to use?
> 
> 
> Hint: If you're not sure what the answer is, see the dot-com bust of 2000, and what happened to all those companies with the spinning logos on their sites and 800K pages that took 60 seconds to download, but nothing under the covers cuz they wasted their $$ on high priced flash guys like ripper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



You are hilarious, its no wonder Cinemar ignores your posts. That fact you consistantly insinuate what others are wanting, thinking, doing is beyond my simple minded comprehension. Mega Bucks interfaces? Please, you keep thinking I want spinning do dinkys and crap zinging around, I want anything but this and I guess you just dont understand, If I had 10 buttons on my entire interface thats too much. Those Crestron and AMX examples people are posting for $500 are a perfect example of what I would never want. I dont even want text if possible unless its text that fades to the point its barely noticable. If I can fade all my scenes to a well done graphic thats dimmed in 20 seconds I would even be happier ( screensaver will do) If I attempted to sell anyone I deal with any of those $500 screens I would be laughed at and the asked if I had lost my marbles. Im not checking into all this stuff for myself as much as I am experimenting with whats possible for other projects happening right now, infact Im heading out in a couple hours to look at something where this stuffs going to be happening an 1850s setting inside a Historic building, you think any of these screens would look nice incorporated into that? The thing that appeals to me about Cinemar and CQC is that Im in control of how it all works and not getting the cookie cutter crap we have avoided in the past. The nice thing about this project is that its wide open and can be properly wired now.


Again, fades in, out over up, whatever. Timed fades on scenes and simple animation, I dont want CQC to design my stuff, I have that covered, I would just think it nice to place an animation HERE and place an invisable button/widget on top of that graphic. Is this tough to understand?


This project will have many, many potential customers looking at it, not my customers but when these projects get completed be assured everybody and their mothers will be there getting ideas for their keeping up with the Jones's projects. The guys that build this stuff put the word out so the other guys can come see how they are spending their money.


----------



## Mark P

Ripper,

I plan on making my own so I can ***** at myself, what I want is so simple its almost pathetic. I think people are misunderstanding my intent. No buttons, no text, no goobly goo. Simplistic, but elegant and flowing together with the use of fades and animations presenting status sort of like I have my lighting now but with other stuff.


when I hit the den on the floorplan this appears











when I touch the ceiling I have taken the opacity of another shot with the spots and you see this ( it fades on like ramped lighting)












I touch any painting and this picture thats opacity is at 50% ramps up and this is what you see











If thats difficult for anyone to understand I would be shocked, touch the curtains and the curtain light ramp on, you see what happening in the room without being there. Buttons? Lets see, I name the Hutch button and put it next to the picture ( or is it painting) button, now do I place that above the fence light buttons or under the Kitchen soffits buttons and what exactly do I call some buttons that light 5 different things in five different areas but are all the same thing ( statues) . Statue #1, Statue #2. Attractive and easy for grandma to use my arse.


What do you think IVB, one of those $500 scenes of Crestron or AMX with the 5 zillion buttons would fancy up this room a little? Sit the ole screen right there on the coffee table eh? Mega what was that you said I was after?


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MarkP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You are hilarious, its no wonder Cinemar ignores your posts. That fact you consistantly insinuate what others are wanting, thinking, doing is beyond my simple minded comprehension.



I have between 100-200 people per day read my website and various blogs. Not a made up # either, check out the various counters. I have at least 5 PMs per DAY between AVS, CQC, cocoontech, and HTPCnews. I've had several dozen folks PM me ever since the price increase for CQC was announced and ask me how I did what I did. The reason I put my equipment list in that doc is because everyone was asking the same question "I want to do exactly what you did - how can I do that?" I've had roughly 20 offers to build other folks systems out for a fee, turned them all down because I'm not interested in doing this for $$.


Look back through your posts and what you are insinuating, then tell me if you want to begin personal attacks. I'm game, but I don't think others want to hear that crap.


----------



## smoothtlk

MarkP,

A couple of years ago I did exactly that type of interface with MainLobby. The only difference was that a standard "Decora" switch appeared in the lower right corner when a device supported Dim. Clicking the area of the photo made that device "Active", and then the "Decora" would then be enabled for that device.


When the device was On, the graphic faded up to the On state graphic. Basically, the pic was taken on a tripod and the different states were captured. These larger pics were then chopped up to focus on the different devices and placed as seperate graphical objects on the MainLobby stage. Then, using States, the appropriate graphic was upped in both Z-Order and opacity.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I attempted to sell anyone I deal with any of those $500 screens I would be laughed at and the asked if I had lost my marbles. Im not checking into all this stuff for myself as much as I am experimenting with whats possible for other projects happening right now, infact Im heading out in a couple hours to look at something where this stuffs going to be happening an 1850s setting inside a Historic building, you think any of these screens would look nice incorporated into that?



Perhaps you can talk them into a cute little spider monkey that will flip lights on/off for bananas or possibly just include a butler with each home..if people you work with are that anal that Crestrons designs aren't good enough perhaps they you can convince James Cutler who designed Bill Gate$ home to stop by and have a chat with you...I'm sure he will just ask for a blank check and begin working on your ideas and should have something planned within 5 years or so.


**I really have no idea why anybody in their right mind would put touchscreens into a historical 1850's building..in the Science Fiction museum yes but in a 1850's historical building?


The way you've been talking your last few posts Mark I'm not sure why your even going the touchscreen route..hell it sounds like many of the people you have as clients have a good income why not skip this foolish talk of even having to interact with some stupid touchscreen with hideous graphics attached to marble walls and instead just equip the homes with million dollar voice recognition systems and be done with it...seems like most of these people might be offended that they would have to squint at some silly touchscreen or perhaps lift a finger when they cant just yell "lights off"


----------



## smoothtlk

Because the "million dollar" voice recognition system doesn't work...


Point of trivia: IBM's longest standing project is "Via Voice" (and it's predecessors). Still not ready for prime time for this type of implementation (and most other).


Very serious technical challenge to do what a 2 yr old does naturally.


EDIT: will, hopefully a 3 yr old...my 2 yr old doesn't listen too well either


----------



## LathanM

Mark_P, Interesting interface idea. It should be possible to do what you are wanting. You should be able to achieve the effect by using the show/hide and states controls in ML. So for the lamp example. Start with a background image of the lamp off. Next create a button of just the lamp on and place it over the background image. In the states change the opacity of the off position to 5%. This will hide the "lit" image when the lamp is off. Set the lable of the button to match the server variable for the light {{Light01}} for example. Set the button controls in MLLighting to turn the lamp on when you press the button. Now when you press the button the image of the on lamp will change and the lights will appear. You can do the same thing for the whole scene if you add a non-clickable black button over the whole scene. Tie its opacity to the the value of the lighting. Place a transparent slider button over the upper part of the scene running from left to right. Tie this slider to the whole room light group. Now the whole scene will dim as the value changes.


We can probly get it to do what you are asking. let me know what kinds of things you are wanting. Sounds like a fun concept and I would love to see it completed.


----------



## Mike_W

Mark, I have a question regarding your Den interface. How would a user select a specific lighting "scene" using your interface paradigm? I can see how it would work if I want to turn individual lights on or off, but what about scenes? Also, what about opening curtains, is the user supposed to drag their finger on the curtain image to open it instead of turning on the curtain lights?


My idea of a user interface is to abstract away individual on/off switches or images into scenes which hide from the user all the behind-the-scene actions that are needed. Again, I understand what you are saying, but how would your interface look in order to accomplish these scenes?


Mike_W


----------



## LathanM

Smoothtlk, As a long time ViaVoice users I agree with you but we are getting closer.







If only microphone technology to make these kinds of things easier wasn't so expensive. Kind of explains why they still use lapel mics in Star Trek.


----------



## robertmee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ripper,
> 
> I plan on making my own so I can ***** at myself, what I want is so simple its almost pathetic. I think people are misunderstanding my intent. No buttons, no text, no goobly goo. Simplistic, but elegant and flowing together with the use of fades and animations presenting status sort of like I have my lighting now but with other stuff.
> 
> 
> when I hit the den on the floorplan this appears
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> when I touch the ceiling I have taken the opacity of another shot with the spots and you see this ( it fades on like ramped lighting)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I touch any painting and this picture thats opacity is at 50% ramps up and this is what you see
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If thats difficult for anyone to understand I would be shocked, touch the curtains and the curtain light ramp on, you see what happening in the room without being there. Buttons? Lets see, I name the Hutch button and put it next to the picture ( or is it painting) button, now do I place that above the fence light buttons or under the Kitchen soffits buttons and what exactly do I call some buttons that light 5 different things in five different areas but are all the same thing ( statues) . Statue #1, Statue #2. Attractive and easy for grandma to use my arse.
> 
> 
> What do you think IVB, one of those $500 scenes of Crestron or AMX with the 5 zillion buttons would fancy up this room a little? Sit the ole screen right there on the coffee table eh? Mega what was that you said I was after?



What do you do when you change the painting or rearrange the furniture


----------



## Mike_W




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *robertmee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What do you do when you change the painting or rearrange the furniture



I was under the assumption that you could move the furniture using the touchscreen.


----------



## LathanM

Mike_W, My take on scenes in this kind of interface would be to have certian areas that when clicked gave you additional controls. For example I woulld add an object to the table on the right hand side that when touched would bring up a scene menu. That menu would have the various scenes labled and when one was selected the scene would launch and clear the menu.


Really we have taken this thread past HA and into interface design. It may be time to start a new one to discuss some of the different was of presenting the controls. Alot of the issues in this area are universal and don't change for any of the products.


----------



## smoothtlk

MikeW,

Scenes can be a slide in menu that can be invoked by touching the top right corner (one method). The assumption here is that anyone that is house knowledable to know what "scenes" are, and specifically for that house, would know where the hidden "link" is.


Curtains: just like my description of the Decora standard control - if you clicked on curtains, the "Decora" doesn't have to appear, a different control can (like Open / close). Or, the hot spot on the curtain can be a "toggle" which every time you click it, it goes to the other state. Graphically it would be reflected as well.


One of our customers had us build a flash garage door for him. He rigged his torsion spring with a 10 turn potentiometer that is read by the PC. The MainLobby software then shows him graphically exactly how far his garage is open. He happens to live in a hot climate and pinches his door open a tad for ventilation. Now, the fun thing is when his car is home (detected by an RF device), then as the garage door flash object Opens (smoothly - we are talking Flash here), you see the bottom of the tires, then the bumper, the trunk lid and then the wide open garage with the car inside. If the RF device says the car is not home, then you see an open, empty garage.

No mistaking that, no instructions needed.


On another project, Cinemar developed a water softner graphic that displays graphically how much salt is in the tank. The top of the tank was mounted an ultrasonic sensors that detects distance from the top of the lid to the top of the salt pile. An alert gets set on the home page when it's time to fill the salt tank. Of course this could go the next level, and the usage could be forecasted and an event put on the family MLCalendar (MainLobby flash calendar that integrates with Outlook) that "Bob, Time to get salt for the softner".


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Because the "million dollar" voice recognition system doesn't work...



Hmm works good enough for Bill Gate$



*Mark..after seeing those images you posted and what you want done I would think it would be rather simple to display different background images showing the light at levels between 0-100 based on a value being read from the lighting interface all without the use of butlers or monkeys..I'm actually surprised David hasn't yet offered to sell you such functionality already.


As for invisible buttons..as far as I know both programs can do it so not sure whats holding you up if thats all you need?


Oh and just thought to mention the pictures of the room you posted its very nice but as been said many times on this thread..to each his own, I for one would never want a home that looked like that regardless..just isn't the sort of style I like just like Crestron screens just isn't the same sort of thing you can envision in that room but regardless hundreds if not thousands of the homes with the same sort of style use Crestron/AMX systems..check out some past issues of Audio/Video Interiors to see what I mean...I need not convince you that other homes of the same caliber use screens you claim your people would laugh at.


Another problem your more than likely gonna face with all of this is stylish touchscreens to match all this...surely if your finding graphics Crestron hired professionals to make something your customers will laugh at I'm sure they are will be laughing if you attempt to sell them touchscreens for the coffee tables made out of cheap Taiwanese plastic..only the best for the elite and I assure you marble/granite/gold casings can be crafted to house the touchscreens so they match the rooms beautifully...I've seen them and anything is available for a price


----------



## smoothtlk

As with most all VR equipped houses, I betcha Bill doesn't use the VR unless there is a reporter in it.


----------



## mcascio

Hi LathanM,


Give me a shout via phone if you get a chance. I can shed some interesting light, (if you don't know already), how to do just about anything you can dream up of including everything Mark wants - it would require Flash though. But you seem to have a handle on that. Just would take a few basic instructions to get you rolling onto all the power of Flash with complete control over MLServer.


BTW, what Mark P wants as far as the lights is possible and has been done by others using ML out of the box. I initially was going to do this way back when, but its not totally intuitive to new comers/visitors. Not unless you highlight the clickable objects. Although, again this falls in to the impress your friends or the home owner who actually is all that needs to know the system anyways. Your friends/family may operate the system what .05% of the time. Not unless your buddy lives with you and you have a house like Mark and you can't get him to leave.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmm works good enough for Bill Gate$


 Yep. And Paul Koslow[sbsmarthomes] too using HomeSeer . Sure, he's done tons of research into how to make it reliable, and now he has. Given that he's a professional integrator, I'd only ask (or expect) him to reveal so much of his intellectual property (much like QQQ's screens). All we need is a DIY'er to figure this out and document it for everyone and provide a roadmap.


Oh wait - i'm being presumptuous again, and thinking that more than just lil' ol' me wants form following function.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LathanM* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mark_P, Interesting interface idea. It should be possible to do what you are wanting. You should be able to achieve the effect by using the show/hide and states controls in ML. So for the lamp example. Start with a background image of the lamp off. Next create a button of just the lamp on and place it over the background image. In the states change the opacity of the off position to 5%. This will hide the "lit" image when the lamp is off. Set the lable of the button to match the server variable for the light {{Light01}} for example. Set the button controls in MLLighting to turn the lamp on when you press the button. Now when you press the button the image of the on lamp will change and the lights will appear. You can do the same thing for the whole scene if you add a non-clickable black button over the whole scene. Tie its opacity to the the value of the lighting. Place a transparent slider button over the upper part of the scene running from left to right. Tie this slider to the whole room light group. Now the whole scene will dim as the value changes.
> 
> 
> We can probly get it to do what you are asking. let me know what kinds of things you are wanting. Sounds like a fun concept and I would love to see it completed.



Lathan its already done, the lights even ramp on, I set up a tripod and took individual pictures of each light on and such and its amazing how great it all works. it looks photo realistic just like youre in the room. It was the first idea I had and I ran with it.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Perhaps you can talk them into a cute little spider monkey that will flip lights on/off for bananas or possibly just include a butler with each home..if people you work with are that anal that Crestrons designs aren't good enough perhaps they you can convince James Cutler who designed Bill Gate$ home to stop by and have a chat with you...I'm sure he will just ask for a blank check and begin working on your ideas and should have something planned within 5 years or so.
> 
> 
> **I really have no idea why anybody in their right mind would put touchscreens into a historical 1850's building..in the Science Fiction museum yes but in a 1850's historical building?
> 
> 
> The way you've been talking your last few posts Mark I'm not sure why your even going the touchscreen route..hell it sounds like many of the people you have as clients have a good income why not skip this foolish talk of even having to interact with some stupid touchscreen with hideous graphics attached to marble walls and instead just equip the homes with million dollar voice recognition systems and be done with it...seems like most of these people might be offended that they would have to squint at some silly touchscreen or perhaps lift a finger when they cant just yell "lights off"



Because spidermonkeys crap, The touchsreens are incorporated wisely ( I will find out tonight anyways) and what people want to do with their money is up to them, I just make it work. And as other stated voice recognition doesnt work and will never work in a room filled with 200 people now would it? Im not even talking about homes, I may be practicing in a house but these systems are going in resorts, Historic resturants, Bird Aviaries, Wildlife refuges with Log Cabin resorts around the rim and there are some homes but thats the easy part . Nevermind, I thought maybe someone would like to see their products introduced into some unique situation but Im starting to see what the " inner circle" consists of and what their priorities are. IVB has 200 CQC users visit his sight daily so obviously CQC doesnt need anyone like me asking questions. Its been repeatedly confirmed by their users and Owner as well as Crestron people whats important and whats not. Back to automating trash cans and floor joists and loading screens with hundreds of purty buttons you all can go.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As with most all VR equipped houses, I betcha Bill doesn't use the VR unless there is a reporter in it.



And I'll bet you 75% or better of the wifes of people with touchscreens don't use them and instead say "Give me the normal remote ya bonehead"


Yeah its cool and everything and wows your buddies but seriously I'll bet most people could care less about a touchscreen and would rather have a universal remote than have to worry about waking up their touchscreen, invoking a command and then getting settled back into their seat every fricken commercial.


I'm sure a huge percentage of North America if you did a survey would rather use a clapper like the old lady in the commercial to turn off the bedroom lights instead of(god forbid)having to actually exert some physical energy and bend slightly sideways to turn of all the lights or anything that might burn some calories...never mind having to pay how much for this sort of system where yoiu still have to burn calories to operate it..say it ain't so!!


Yes its true everybody..we are but a small collection of nerds from this huge planet using touchscreens to turn lights and electronics on/off...evolution sure is amazing and we are among the elite of control freaks so to say.


----------



## smoothtlk

Well, to some X10 is reliable too.

After spending years on VR technology with all of the primary players (not HA related), it ain't ready for the difficult environment of an open home. Not unless you can control ambient noise, have close proximity mikes, don't have open floor plan layout, are pretty consistent with your voice control and don't expect your friends and family to be able to use it.


Ripper, no one said a touchscreen is the only control metaphor in a well equipped home. it has it's place. A nice handheld remote control with hard buttons is great for the very routine tasks like channel surfing and volume control. Selecting media is a different matter. A UMPC works great for that in the theater. Controlling whole house lights from convenient touchscreens with a well designed UI is only better than walking across the house to hit the light switch (also on the wall).


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have between 100-200 people per day read my website and various blogs. Not a made up # either, check out the various counters. I have at least 5 PMs per DAY between AVS, CQC, cocoontech, and HTPCnews. I've had several dozen folks PM me ever since the price increase for CQC was announced and ask me how I did what I did. The reason I put my equipment list in that doc is because everyone was asking the same question "I want to do exactly what you did - how can I do that?" I've had roughly 20 offers to build other folks systems out for a fee, turned them all down because I'm not interested in doing this for $$.
> 
> 
> Look back through your posts and what you are insinuating, then tell me if you want to begin personal attacks. I'm game, but I don't think others want to hear that crap.



You have already been called out by several people in this thread and then you turn your BS on me with you "funny" post about Mega This and Mega that. I have no doubts you can automate things. Maybe you should read your own posts. All I asked for was some interfaces that looked like game consoles or Media Center and was put in my place real fast on whats important to a couple companies and what end users really want coming from people that enjoy automating. Im guessing alot of customers really enjoy knowing they have screens full of buttons, for about a day when the ohhhh, ahhhh look at all the shiny icons and red flashing lights wears off and they realize they have a giant remote / Texas Instruments calculator shining brightly in their room. Back to the regularly scheduled informing everyone how lacking ML is. PPC indeed


----------



## Mike_W




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IVB has 200 CQC users visit his sight daily so obviously CQC doesnt need anyone like me asking questions.



I don't think it's the "asking questions" that's the problem. And I really don't think everybody is as far apart on this issue as it might seem. I just think that most people would rather see core functionality upgraded before GUI capabilities.


It's nice to hear other opinions, but what did you expect for a response when you imply that the use of static images is "embarrassing"?


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmm works good enough for Bill Gate$



I bet it works almost as good as this.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j7EEbokKLHI


----------



## LathanM

I forgot all about that one. Almost as good as the USB bluescreen one. I was there live for that one and it was the funniest thing I had ever seen. At least this time he had Conan to save him.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mike_W* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't think it's the "asking questions" that's the problem. And I really don't think everybody is as far apart on this issue as it might seem. I just think that most people would rather see core functionality upgraded before GUI capabilities.
> 
> 
> It's nice to hear other opinions, but what did you expect for a response when you state that the use of static images is "embarrassing"?



Well put, thanks. It's not the asking questions that I'm defending, it's the fact that you're attacking me about how little I must understand of the common person.


You claim to possess the power of the market in your fingertips, and either company will have thousands upon thousands of customers buying tomorrow if they would just listen to you, indeed you personally convinced hundreds of people to buy a screen including 65yr old men by merely speaking, and that I am a complete nimrod.


I'm not saying I'm the god who must be worshipped, but please do not insult me by saying I have no freaking clue about what anyone else wants.


I spend a ton of time & energy on these sites helping others setup their HT/HA systems. I don't ask what package they're going to use before doing so. I setup a website, starting writing a how-to doc, documented my equipment list. I've customized wiring layout diagrams for folks without asking what package they're using or leaning towards using. I've walked Cinemar folks through ElkRP/JRMC/etc setup both on webex and on various chat forums, even though I knew there was no chance they'd switch packages. I've webex'ed folks on Girder setup (granted, the free version that I still have laying around).


In the last year, I've easily personally walked 100 folks through setting up systems live, many many more on the various forums. Probably 30% of that was on non-CQC stuff.


So again, please do not insult me again by saying I have no freaking clue about what anyone else wants.


----------



## ToyMaster458

As the Famous Revised Quote goes...


> Quote:
> You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot please all the people all the time.



Mark,


I agree that you idea has a nice look and feel for some but yet others will think it is just another picture on the wall. If you are looking to do this on a professional bases you will find that everyone has their own opinion on how it should look and feel for use.


I suggest you just design a set of templates that will handle the highest percent of your customers and anything outside of that is extra. For me I found buttons and words type of design to be the best because anyone can walk up to it and start using it. Not to put you design down in any way but if my mom walked into the house and tried to use it, she would not understand touching the light in the picture would turn on the light, she would ask why is the picture so low on the wall.


As far as $500 for graphics, that is not that bad of a price. If they are spending thousands on equipment and your time, $500 for graphics is just another line item on the quote.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LathanM* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I forgot all about that one. Almost as good as the USB bluescreen one. I was there live for that one and it was the funniest thing I had ever seen. At least this time he had Conan to save him.


 http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2005/12/30/gates


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I bet it works almost as good as this.
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=j7EEbokKLHI



Touche....see the look on Bills face, this is the same sorta of look I presume most would have if they walked up to a touchscreen in a room and seen one of the photos Mark posted above showing on it...I would suspect most people/guests would find some buttons a teeny bit more intuitive.


Sure it might be cool to say look press here and see that light come on but what about a Satellite PVR in the room..I'd love to see how that would be controlled if more than 10 buttons would be absurd by Marks owns words.


From that screen above do I press the one image above the fireplace and the picture flips and reveals a 50" plasma sorta like SuperNanny has and all of a sudden I'm on my plasma control screen?


Perhaps the little statue is missing like Bruce Wayne might have on the end table and once plasma control is engaged I then use the statue head to navigate a PVR guide and press down firmly to select channels?


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not saying I'm the god who must be worshipped



IVB say nothing..anybody that is part of the HA community knows your contributions thus far to helping others, some might even think you work for a company by all the time you dedicate to helping others for nothing..your help is appreciated always by many on various forums.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ToyMaster458* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As the Famous Revised Quote goes...
> 
> 
> 
> Mark,
> 
> 
> I agree that you idea has a nice look and feel for some but yet others will think it is just another picture on the wall. If you are looking to do this on a professional bases you will find that everyone has their own opinion on how it should look and feel for use.
> 
> 
> I suggest you just design a set of templates that will handle the highest percent of your customers and anything outside of that is extra. For me I found buttons and words type of design to be the best because anyone can walk up to it and start using it. Not to put you design down in any way but if my mom walked into the house and tried to use it, she would not understand touching the light in the picture would turn on the light, she would ask why is the picture so low on the wall.
> 
> 
> As far as $500 for graphics, that is not that bad of a price. If they are spending thousands on equipment and your time, $500 for graphics is just another line item on the quote.



Not customers, customer and myself. We went through all these screens months ago and well.......lets just say I asked if the graphics for this stuff had arouse from 1992 and was catching up with what has been available for close to a decade now on video game consoles and websites. Its OK guys, Cinemar can handle graphics from my understanding, Im sure it will work fine in our projects. Ive just spent several months hearing about the raw power of a product and I never would imagine you couldnt make a pleasing interface for the 4 people on the planet that want this. Well them and the dozens of others Ive demo this stuff to and brought up book marked pages of the Buttony TI calculator screens. I guess its because its the groups of people Im asking, normal ones and some with a couple bucks. My responses are farrrrr from what people are saying here.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I guess its because its the groups of people Im asking, normal ones and some with a couple bucks.



Perhaps your of some elite group huh?


Do I have to maybe have a set of speakers like yours and cool audio equipment to to be part of your group? Or maybe a 100" screen gets me into your club?


Perhaps you think your group is better than mere mortals like us...


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Touche....see the look on Bills face, this is the same sorta of look I presume most would have if they walked up to a touchscreen in a room and seen one of the photos Mark posted above showing on it...I would suspect most people/guests would find some buttons a teeny bit more intuitive.
> 
> 
> Sure it might be cool to say look press here and see that light come on but what about a Satellite PVR in the room..I'd love to see how that would be controlled if more than 10 buttons would be absurd by Marks owns words.
> 
> 
> From that screen above do I press the one image above the fireplace and the picture flips and reveals a 50" plasma sorta like SuperNanny has and all of a sudden I'm on my plasma control screen?
> 
> 
> Perhaps the little statue is missing like Bruce Wayne might have on the end table and once plasma control is engaged I then use the statue head to navigate a PVR guide and press down firmly to select channels?



Thats from my screen, not the the others, everybody has personal screens thats set up for their personal needs in personal rooms, guestrooms have little need for controlling the Theater now do they? While in the Theater do I need buttons for the pool showing. Maybe the communication breakdown is that you are under the impression of using one screen fits all, hardly. Gotta run but keep the hilarious posts coming so I have some fun reading to show someone when I meet up with them in a couple hours. They should get a good chuckle out of this post here.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MarkP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I guess its because its the groups of people Im asking, normal ones and some with a couple bucks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps your of some elite group huh?
> 
> 
> Do I have to maybe have a set of speakers like yours and cool audio equipment to to be part of your group? Or maybe a 100" screen gets me into your club?
> 
> 
> Perhaps you think your group is better than mere mortals like us...
Click to expand...


No perhaps about it, that is easily the most insulting thing i've read on this forum in a long time.


I cannot believe you've come to this forum looking for assistance in setting up your project, and then blatantly continuing to insult us like this. Good luck getting help, let me know how that attitude works out for you.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> All I asked for was some interfaces that looked like game consoles or Media Center and was put in my place real fast on whats important to a couple companies and what end users really want coming from people that enjoy automating. Im guessing alot of customers really enjoy knowing they have screens full of buttons, for about a day when the ohhhh, ahhhh look at all the shiny icons and red flashing lights wears off and they realize they have a giant remote / Texas Instruments calculator shining brightly in their room. Back to the regularly scheduled informing everyone how lacking ML is. PPC indeed



No one 'put you in your place'. They just disagree with you. You seem to be having a hard time seeing that people have wildly different opinions about what makes a good user interface. You have your opinions, other people have theirs. I've spent the last 5'ish years having people whisper, talk, and scream at me what they need, so I know from whence I speak in terms of prioritization of feature implementation. I can promise you that what you are wanting to do, though very likely of great value in some of the scenarios you mentioned, are not nearly as high a priority for the 'meat and potatoes' needs that most customers have for core home automation, and that we still need to meet in order to get professional installers on board.


That doesn't in the slightest mean that we don't care about it. But we are a business and we have to address the issues first that will bring in the most business. I can promise you that it's not the things that you are talking about. Yes, some of the people you show some screen concept to might say I'd really like to have that. But, if we then don't support the hardware they have or the tools aren't refined enough to make it easy to implement what they need to have implemented, the pretty interface won't matter.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Perhaps your of some elite group huh?
> 
> 
> Do I have to maybe have a set of speakers like yours and cool audio equipment to to be part of your group? Or maybe a 100" screen gets me into your club?
> 
> 
> Perhaps you think your group is better than mere mortals like us...



Actually Im getting that from your group of 2 maybe three, Ill bet Dean just shudders while his two saleman open their mouths.


100" screen? please, we dont deal in inches. J/K, My speakers are DIY as well there Graphics specialist. Watch it Ripper your starting to stereo type here, you guys wanted more and more info as to why someone wanted screens with no buttons, I just started giving examples


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And I'll bet you 75% or better of the wifes of people with touchscreens don't use them and instead say "Give me the normal remote ya bonehead"
> 
> 
> Yeah its cool and everything and wows your buddies but seriously I'll bet most people could care less about a touchscreen and would rather have a universal remote than have to worry about waking up their touchscreen, invoking a command and then getting settled back into their seat every fricken commercial.
> 
> 
> I'm sure a huge percentage of North America if you did a survey would rather use a clapper like the old lady in the commercial to turn off the bedroom lights instead of(god forbid)having to actually exert some physical energy and bend slightly sideways to turn of all the lights or anything that might burn some calories...never mind having to pay how much for this sort of system where yoiu still have to burn calories to operate it..say it ain't so!!
> 
> 
> Yes its true everybody..we are but a small collection of nerds from this huge planet using touchscreens to turn lights and electronics on/off...evolution sure is amazing and we are among the elite of control freaks so to say.



Ripper,


I have to disagree with your statement above. ASSUMING it is properly implemented, I think the average/normal person (if there is such a thing) loves a touchscreen. This ASSUMES the touchscreen does what it is supposed to do and makes everything easy to operate. One of the most satisfyingly things for me is often at the end of the project when I sit down with the Client and get to show them how to operate their system. To relate one instance that is one of my favorites, it was an installation in which the wife never participated in a single meeting because she had 0 interest in his Media Room...UNTIL she sat down and started to operate the system when I unveiled the touchscreen. Her reaction was "WOW, I can do this!". The next week the husband called me up about adding more touchscreens to other rooms.


A good hand held remote can be great too, but nothing can make things easy to operate for people (especially if they have more than a few A/V components) than a touchscreen. However due to the cost and work required, I think very very few people have been exposed to using a touchscreen to operate their home and it will likely stay that way for a long time.


----------



## QQQ

p.s. the above is not meant to suggest that touchscreens are always better than handheld remotes which is a silly argument that people sometimes get into because "I prefer hard buttons etc." They each have their place.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 100" screen? please, we dont deal in inches.



I still deal in inches sometimes since it helps women to visualize things easier (if you start talking in feet a woman can get confused or scared). So when asked my size I normally say 2". The look of surprise on their face often increases when I explain "from the ground baby, from the ground".


I thought perhaps adding that bad joke might lighten things up a bit.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A good hand held remote can be great too, but nothing can make things easy to operate for people (especially if they have more than a few A/V components) than a touchscreen. However due to the cost and work required, I think very very few people have been exposed to using a touchscreen to operate their home and it will likely stay that way for a long time.



Exactly the reason some of my screens have 50 buttons yet Mark feels the need to be sarcastic about it..I'm happy with what I use to control my stuff and it works fine for me..Mark has shown his true colors in most of his posts already and it seems perhaps we are truly separated by some sort of money thing.


As for the remark "Graphics specialist" I'm not sure what your trying to say..I do it for a hobby and don't ever claim to be an expert or think I'm better than the next guy...I surely don't make fun of others graphics like you have especially while at the same time I'm asking for advice.


I really could care less if your screen size isn't in inchs....to me its about as big as your attitude, I made the comment in reply to your elitist attitude in your earlier post.


I don't think I've even seen your speakers and what the hell do they have to do with anything?


----------



## QQQ

Just to clarify for anyone not consistently following this thread or only reading the last few posts, Ripper is only addressing me in the first paragraph. After that he is addressing Mark P.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Exactly the reason some of my screens have 50 buttons...



Speaking of which, I am confused by your current portfolio. A while back you posted some screen shots which I liked much better than what I currently see on your website. Much snazzier buttons (gloss effect) and lots of color etc. The stuff you have on your site now looks like it was first generation or something. Am I missing something? Certainly not intending to insult. I can upload the screenshot I really liked if you don't know what I am referring to.


----------



## ToyMaster458




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not customers, customer and myself. We went through all these screens months ago and well.......lets just say I asked if the graphics for this stuff had arouse from 1992 and was catching up with what has been available for close to a decade now on video game consoles and websites. Its OK guys, Cinemar can handle graphics from my understanding, Im sure it will work fine in our projects. Ive just spent several months hearing about the raw power of a product and I never would imagine you couldnt make a pleasing interface for the 4 people on the planet that want this. Well them and the dozens of others Ive demo this stuff to and brought up book marked pages of the Buttony TI calculator screens. I guess its because its the groups of people Im asking, normal ones and some with a couple bucks. My responses are farrrrr from what people are saying here.



Mark


If it is just you and your buddies that you are building this for, what does it realy matter what other people think of your design.


As far as a "pleasing interface" we go back to my quote in my other post. I have also showed many people many designs and I get different opinions from everyone but this is what makes everyone different from another.


I am very happy for you and your friend that you decided on a Interface that best works for you and if you feel that one product does a better job at providing you with the capability to reach that goal then then other then go with that product but don't put down its competitors just because it lacks a feature that you feel is required for complete capability. For me my goal is for a system that is strong in the backend. I sell products based on the engine in it rather then the color of it.


I am not suprised at all that the responses you get here are "farrrrr from" what you got elsewhere. This is what makes this forum what it is. It is a combination of different views and opinions.


*Legal Notice*

The following is not directed towards anyone directly nor indirectly, it is subject to clarification or withdrawal.


This whole thread reminds me of what I once heard as a young lad, "Opinions are like [email protected]@holes, Everyone has one."


----------



## Les Auber

Am I the only one who thinks this thread has deteriorated into a blonde vs brunette argument? The best touchscreen graphics like other asthetics are very much in the eye of the beholder.


I've watched the graphics capability of CQC improve by orders of magnitude since I started with it. I suspect that animation will eventually hit Dean's radar screen again just like the prior improvements in interface design. Everyone needs a break sometimes, even Dean.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Speaking of which, I am confused by your current portfolio. A while back you posted some screen shots which I liked much better than what I currently see on your website. Much snazzier buttons (gloss effect) and lots of color etc. The stuff you have on your site now looks like it was first generation or something. Am I missing something? Certainly not intending to insult. I can upload the screenshot I really liked if you don't know what I am referring to.



I think what you seen was another set of templates I had did when I first started using CQC and then I changed to another type...alot of times I forget to post new stuff I am working on or I post it to the CQC forums when I remember.


Here is the direct link to a gallery with various things I made in my spare time, as I mentioned previously I have never claimed to be an expert and actually stopped doing any graphics related work around 2000 and only continued doing it as a hobby and even then I didn't do much for years..I do alot different work these days totally unrelated to graphics.

http://www.touchscreengraphics.com/gallery2/main.php 


I truly understand how my personal style might not be what another finds attractive at all or what they want to control their system..thats fine we all have our own styles we like and this is stuff I do as a hobby not trying to make any sort of profit.


----------



## QQQ

Ripper,


I've attached the image I'm talking about? Do you like:
http://www.touchscreengraphics.com/g...?g2_itemId=190 

better?











p.s. Everyone should make sure and maximize the image I attached or it will not look good.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ripper,
> 
> 
> I've attached the image I'm talking about? Do you like:
> http://www.touchscreengraphics.com/g...?g2_itemId=190
> 
> better?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> p.s. Everyone should make sure and maximize the image I attached or it will not look good.



And here's another I just found in your "archives" that seem to randonmly pop up in the left when visiting your site. This looks great:
http://www.touchscreengraphics.com/g...?g2_itemId=122 


The above looks 10 times better than this which you seem to say is your current???
http://www.touchscreengraphics.com/g...?g2_itemId=190


----------



## QQQ

Please note I am referring to the graphical elements only (look and feel of the buttons etc.), not what is or is not on the page.


----------



## Ripper99

Ahh yes that was some older stuff I did from this set of templates

http://www.touchscreengraphics.com/g...p?g2_itemId=97 


The thing is I change things all the time and see what I like in a variety of resolutions..the sets posted online is stuff I had completed and I posted as template packages for people to use.


Here is yet another look I started months ago but I got sidetracked with moving into our new home so I never quite finished doing everything..this time its in 800x600 and isn't finished either


Also..its fairly easy for me to make buttons glossy or whatever color but trust me no matter which way I do them *everybody* will have an opinion as to what they like/dislike so many times I don't even post the 100's of variations of stuff I make..probably save myself from alot of people telling me what I should and shouldnt be doing 












Perhaps this isn't a style for everybody but then again I didn't design for anybody but myself and my equipment..the one advantage I do have is I can rapidly design things for myself and don't have to rely on others to get the look I want to control my equipment..to each his own, I design for myself but also anytime I post anything I can expect criticism....thats what I don't always post everything I do otherwise I'd have to deal with sarcastic comments everyday.


I'm sure someone will say this has way too many button or the icons look like nintendo yet the same people would say that it should look like an Xbox of course...personally I could care less how some others accept things and if they don't like it fine..I make ti to control my system and not theirs, you don't see them posting much to write home about.



BTW QQQ don't think this post is anything against you in anyway...just basically pointing out that some have nothing to do other than criticize others yet they have nothing to show.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW QQQ don't think this post is anything against you in anyway...just basically pointing out that some have nothing to do other than criticize others yet they have nothing to show.



Not at all, it's just funny because I would never think the same guy designed both. I would think that the guy that designed the first stuff would find the buttons on the second stuff boring in comparison







(referring to the comparison I posted a few posts back). You may want to see a doctor. I think you are devolving







.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not at all, it's just funny because I would never think the same guy designed both. I would think that the guy that designed the first stuff would find the buttons on the second stuff boring in comparison
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Exactly...and I'm sure I could design in 1000 other variations and you would never know it was the same person, I came from a background of webpage design and people coded sites in notepad and in that business if you designed the same **** day after day you wouldn't make money and you surely won't have many customers...nobody wants the same old crap as the next guy.


The buttons on the second set were made very simple for a few reasons when I made them..I was testing different designs in dimmed room and the others lit up the room and that version was purposely made so it was washed out and cast less light on the darkened room.


I can do many styles in Photoshop and not just the 50 button remote stuff made for 10 year olds that I do for touchscreens.... thats why I should sometimes just sit back and not comment about graphics..I don't need to try to impress anybody especially if I'm not being paid by the hour.


----------



## smoothtlk

I am not feeling that sheen effect. Also, didn't you upgrade to CQC's 2.0 Pleasure Dot Technology?


----------



## Les Auber

Just when I thought the thread was becoming useful again...


----------



## Dean Roddey

The PDT was delayed due to staffing issues. We keep having to fire the testers, for reasons probably best not gone into.


----------



## QQQ

And when Dean says "staff" issues, he means that quite literally.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And here's another I just found in your "archives" that seem to randonmly pop up in the left when visiting your site. This looks great:
> http://www.touchscreengraphics.com/g...?g2_itemId=122
> 
> 
> The above looks 10 times better than this which you seem to say is your current???
> http://www.touchscreengraphics.com/g...?g2_itemId=190



Hmm not sure what to say..I made that the first day I started using CQC to test controlling my music archive..sorta got bored and made a few other things...I tend to change things weekly/monthly if I have spare time.


The stuff in my archives which says "current" is sort of deceiving because it graphics I made I think in July or something..I've done other stuff since then I just don't always post it because its .psd files I'm working on and when I do post it I'll get emails from people asking me for it and I usually don't have alot of spare time to chop it into buttons or templates for them.


I guess thats an example of how things look different to other people..what might look 10 times better to you looks old and boring to me a few hours after making it..I sorta just laid it out quickly to test playing my music and then I guess the next thing you know I had a few templates.


Here a user on the CQC forum takes some of those graphics and makes something totally different for a smaller touchscreen

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=2875


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am not feeling that sheen effect.



How about a cool breeze?


{picture deleted}


Merry Xmas David


----------



## smoothtlk

Nice, but you should see Pete of iAutomate dance!


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No one 'put you in your place'. They just disagree with you. You seem to be having a hard time seeing that people have wildly different opinions about what makes a good user interface. You have your opinions, other people have theirs. I've spent the last 5'ish years having people whisper, talk, and scream at me what they need, so I know from whence I speak in terms of prioritization of feature implementation. I can promise you that what you are wanting to do, though very likely of great value in some of the scenarios you mentioned, are not nearly as high a priority for the 'meat and potatoes' needs that most customers have for core home automation, and that we still need to meet in order to get professional installers on board.
> 
> 
> That doesn't in the slightest mean that we don't care about it. But we are a business and we have to address the issues first that will bring in the most business. I can promise you that it's not the things that you are talking about. Yes, some of the people you show some screen concept to might say I'd really like to have that. But, if we then don't support the hardware they have or the tools aren't refined enough to make it easy to implement what they need to have implemented, the pretty interface won't matter.



No Dean, I think its you that has a hard time seeing that people have wildly different opinions, In your last 5 years who were these whispers coming from? Integrator/automators or have you personally spoke with the end user that hasnt been informed by the integrator how lucky they are to have the layout they have. Interfaces on just about everything but Home Depot Self checkouts, oops scratch that, those have motion and fade ins and photos, OK maybe Wal-Mart self.....eeerps I guess they are developed for 2007 as well. Point being, Im not sure who was involved in your study group but hopefully in envolved hundreds of every age starting at around 6 and all the way to 80 years old. If youre talking to youre talking and listening to your customers thats great, but in your case theres an end user thats using multiple other products and wondering why everything they own has nice interfaces but the thing that operates their entire home.


Theres a member of this forum that has a thread with 525,000 views on his thread with over 3000 replys, if he says "go buy this its great" people run like sheep as fast as they can without question because they watched his progress and know his dedication to excellence or atleast the most favorable route is. We have discussed this Cinenmar, CQC thing for h.....o...u.r.s and I think you may be suprised what he said about your product no matter how powerful and robust it is. Had it had one itty bitty thing different, he probably would have posted how great and exciting you product was and hundreds would have jumped. Its a simple concept and heres his theater




















Now from the research thats been done in 5 years do you have a suggestion (example ) of what interface screen works well here at the captains chair since its one of the first things that will grap your eyes. DIYers are interested and doing projects like this. Im not ripping on your product like others do on this thread consistantly towards Cinemar, Im just wondering who these people are that are telling you graphics come last.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IVB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No perhaps about it, that is easily the most insulting thing i've read on this forum in a long time.
> 
> 
> I cannot believe you've come to this forum looking for assistance in setting up your project, and then blatantly continuing to insult us like this. Good luck getting help, let me know how that attitude works out for you.



Your insulted, not sure how but then you make stuff up and insert your feelings frequently on what others are thinking or doing.


If it was the normal people and people with a couple bucks, I suppose I can spoon feed you along.


Normal People= people who can turn on a light switch, would never pay for any of this, and could give a rats arse about any screen or how good or robust this stuff is because they have a life. Ive asked many of these types since they are guests and will have to use this stuff


People with a couple bucks= Someone that might, and I stress MIGHT be interested in something like this because even the DIY route is going to be costly and time consuming, and if you spending wads of cash chances are you want your interface matching the price of the product.


You guys seem to think Im saying the actual graphics themselves are crap, nothings further from the truth, its the fact its soon 2010 and look at the interfaces, everybody else on the planet that has interfaces have something appealing going on usually containing some sort of movement.


Its funny all the Cinemar users here are for great graphics, and the couple CQC users and owner and a Crestron guy are brushing graphics to the side as "what people want" and no need to improve. Not suprising


----------



## smoothtlk

Might have something to do with Cinemar's / CQCs roots.


Cinemar was born from AVSForum for media management. Folks that are interested in media tend to emphasize graphical media and approach (from what we at Cinemar see).


I believe CQC was born more from automation of hardware and has less emphasis on what things look like.


Cinemar's founder (Mario) has a strength in graphical development.


Dean's strength seems to be of code.


Since foundation roots, Cinemar has added a team of software development folks as well as graphical folks. ML3 is really the first product that exemplifies that team result that covers both automation nuts and bolts AND graphical content and manipulation. And, the ability to let end user's to add their own bits of graphics (or even plugin code) is supported.


Dean has not expanded his "staff", but does allow for graphical contributions from folks like Ripper99 and code aware end users.


Good to have options. Keeps us up late at night


----------



## samgreco

I can't seem to grasp where all of this anger is coming from. There are 2 different approaches, from 2 different companies being discussed here. The fact is that they both have their own way of seeing things.


It doesn't have to be an ideological war. I don't think that IVB deserves the bashing he's getting. I have found him to be very helpful. Really above and beyond the call. I have seen him recommend products other than CQC if he felt that it was in the posters best interest.


MarkP wants a flashy (no pun intended) animated interface. Well that's just peachy and his right to do so. But not to demand or chastised those, includung Dean, who don't agree.


MarkP - if you're right and there are hundreds or thousands just chomping at the bit for what you describe, then Dean won't get that business. It's his decision which market he goes after. If he's wrong, he looses. If he's right he wins.


Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't make them evil or even wrong. Just a differing view.


I dont happen to agree with MarkP's view of interface. I don't particularly like IVB's either. BUT I appreciate the approaches. I happen to be looking for something a little different.


For instance, when my wife walks up to the touchscreen and wants to play music, shuoldshe have to know which "source" to pick if I have 3 different digital streams possible from the server? Or should she just be able to pick an album and click play?


To me those are the issues of importance. Usability.


And no-one will get my business if they take side jabs at the competition that have nothing to do with the product itself. In all of my years in sales, I have NEVER bashed my competition. I will discuss the differences in products and why I think my products approach is better.


OK, I'm done now.


Everyone try and chill and have a great Holiday Season.


----------



## IVB

Smoothtlk is correct in the foundation of things, substantially off in where CQC is, but at this point i'm not going to feed the various trolls anymore.


Looks to me like MarkP has come to his decision as to which product he's going to use to automate his theater, and I sincerely wish him the best of luck with it.


----------



## Mr.Tim

I don't know what the numbers would be, but I wouldn't dismiss the comment.


Mark has been pretty blunt, but there is a lot of truth in what he has said. I'm not here to defend what he said, or how he said it; the only difference between his comments and other comments from some people is that he doesn't go to great lengths to disguise them as anything else.


Personally, I am waiting to see what both Mark and 'the other gentleman' do. I do believe that they could significantly impact a product. From reading their threads, I also find that their tastes are similar to mine. Not to say that every person on this earth has the same taste, but I think a great deal of people identify with these guys.


I think they share the same passion for their choice of products that other people in this thread share for {CQC,ML}. I think what sets them apart is that when they can't find a product that meets their needs they go to great lengths to build/modify/create/improvise one.


Tim


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samgreco* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can't seem to grasp where all of this anger is coming from. There are 2 different approaches, from 2 different companies being discussed here. The fact is that they both have their own way of seeing things.
> 
> 
> It doesn't have to be an ideological war. I don't think that IVB deserves the bashing he's getting. I have found him to be very helpful. Really above and beyond the call. I have seen him recommend products other than CQC if he felt that it was in the posters best interest.
> 
> 
> MarkP wants a flashy (no pun intended) animated interface. Well that's just peachy and his right to do so. But not to demand or chastised those, includung Dean, who don't agree.
> 
> 
> MarkP - if you're right and there are hundreds or thousands just chomping at the bit for what you describe, then Dean won't get that business. It's his decision which market he goes after. If he's wrong, he looses. If he's right he wins.
> 
> 
> Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't make them evil or even wrong. Just a differing view.
> 
> 
> I dont happen to agree with MarkP's view of interface. I don't particularly like IVB's either. BUT I appreciate the approaches. I happen to be looking for something a little different.
> 
> 
> For instance, when my wife walks up to the touchscreen and wants to play music, shuoldshe have to know which "source" to pick if I have 3 different digital streams possible from the server? Or should she just be able to pick an album and click play?
> 
> 
> To me those are the issues of importance. Usability.
> 
> 
> And no-one will get my business if they take side jabs at the competition that have nothing to do with the product itself. In all of my years in sales, I have NEVER bashed my competition. I will discuss the differences in products and why I think my products approach is better.
> 
> 
> OK, I'm done now.
> 
> 
> Everyone try and chill and have a great Holiday Season.



Great post Sam. And I believe you are on the mark that usability is key...I would say usability if KING. For me it is the first goal because without that nothing else matters. You can have state of the art performance, but if people can't use it, it doesn't matter.


Here is how we like to handle the issue of choosing between 3 streams. There are a lof of variables and ways to do it but in the end we usually do something like this.


Show three buttons for "Stream 1", "Stream 2" and "Stream 3". Each source button should have an indicator that shows if it is in-use or not. Now the user can choose whether they want to select a Stream that is in use or select their own dedicated Stream. The reason this works well is that in a "real" home, people often turn on the music in the kitchen, leave it on there and then walk to the family room and want to turn it on there too. They can see that "Stream 1" is in use, know that it is the one they already have playing in the kitchen and that it is the Stream they want to select. On the other hand, if they see Stream 1 is in use and they are in a room where they want to start up some music for themselves (independently), they know to select Stream 2 or 3.


There are other ways to handle this and I could write 2 pages about the pros and cons but I have found the above to work best.


p.s. of course I would not actually call them "Stream 1" on the touchscreen but rather "Music Library" or something like that.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Im not ripping on your product like others do on this thread consistantly towards Cinemar, Im just wondering who these people are that are telling you graphics come last.



No one said graphics come last. Basically, as the vendor of an automation product, I constantly get contacts of the sort "Can your product do X? If so I may buy it, else I can't, even if it's really good otherwise". Never has X been animation, honestly. It's been support for this device, or that device, or the ability to do scheduled events, or triggered events, or do media management, ect... So these are the things that we've spent the last year or so implementing.


So I'm having a little trouble understanding how you can question that we are doing what those people who are making the decision to buy/not buy are asking for. I'm sure that if you sat down a group of random people and showed them prettier and prettier screens, that a lot of them would pick the prettiest one (leaving aside that they wouldn't understand the usability aspects of it, and are just going by visual appeal.) But, those people don't seem to be the people driving the purchase of an automation product.


In the end, as a business, the people who count are the ones who buy or don't buy. I've talked to thousands by now, and animation has never, ever been a decision point. Device support, far and away, is the make/break issue.


That doesn't mean I don't care about making the interfaces nicer. I do. If you need evidence, here is a screen snap of the 1.0 user interface:

http://charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloa...es/Showoff.jpg 


If yo compare that to what we are doing now, clearly a huge amount of work has gone into the user interface system. It's one of the biggest single chunks of code in the system actually. But other than the occasional request for something like a spinning fan type automation widget (which we do have, though it's not as good as it could be currently) and the slide out interfaces (which we have now), the requests have overwhelmingly been for other things.


So I'm not sure what to tell you. If the bulk of potential buyers had felt the way you do, you can rest assured that it would have been done by now, since that would have been the biggest break point for the buy decision. But it's not been. Given that our customer base has increased by 500% this year, I think that we've done a fairly good job in filling in the holes that people have felt were missing.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Theres a member of this forum that has a thread with 525,000 views on his thread with over 3000 replys, if he says "go buy this its great" people run like sheep as fast as they can without question because they watched his progress and know his dedication to excellence or atleast the most favorable route is. We have discussed this Cinenmar, CQC thing for h.....o...u.r.s and I think you may be suprised what he said about your product no matter how powerful and robust it is. Had it had one itty bitty thing different, he probably would have posted how great and exciting you product was and hundreds would have jumped. Its a simple concept and heres his theater



I guess your talking about Sandman? Well I've read his thread and while I admire anybody that can convert a garage into a theater the way he did I surely didn't run out like a sheep and buy anything he put into his theater because he claimed it was the most favorable route and I'm sure most common sense people wouldn't do the same..beautiful theater Ruben has but just because he likes something its got nothing to do with what everybody else likes nor will people run like sheep to buy products just because he use's them.


Personally I make my purchases based on what I like and how something works for me and not what someone else likes..I've mentioned more than once I used Cinemar for 6 months and it didn't do what I needed..obviously after spending $1000 on the product and a driver for it something had to be wrong otherwise I would be still using it and thats about all the details I need to give without someone implying I'm bashing.


While Mark seemed to have fun making pokes at a few of my 50 buttons screens with the ten year old comment..so be it, I have components that have 50 functions I would like access too quickly the way the wife and I like it, I could really care less about things sliding in and out or built with Flash or looking like an Xbox or how some other guy sees the world..its all personal choice and we are all entitled to use what we want and truthfully it comes down to usability and functionality.


I really have nothing to gain by knocking Cinemar and David and I have had our share of arguments and at times he has somewhat agreed my situation may have had something to do with the way Musiclobby ran for me, I did not at all buy Mainlobby for the way it looked as I can design my own graphics..at the time it was purchased I bought it as a front end to control my gear and my music and that was #1..had nothing to do at all with graphics..if anything I complained about not being able to change the color of things like the Musiclobby interface at that time.


I think both products have a few things users dislike but in no way is either product going to satisfy everybody...regardless of what anybody thinks I don't care who recommends a product if I purchase it and it doesn't work for my situation I'll be taking it back end of story.


If it works for them and they have a fan club of loyal users so be it but if it doesn't work for me or has a problem I'm not gonna sit back and say nothing and act like I think its the best thing since sliced bread just because some other guy likes it..I sure ain't no nutswinger and never will be.


I've been at AVS since around when it started and one thing I've learned is people here say what they want about products..nobody gives a crap that Johny Plasma thinks his set is the best and because he is the plasma god we should all bow down and purchase his plasma...screw that if they know a particular LCD is better and they have the facts you know what they will be buying regardless of what the flock of seagulls is having for lunch.


Personally Mark I think you need to keep doing some research..I've owned/used


Crestron

Pronto

Homeseer

Netremote

Meedio

Xlobby

Cinemar


I've now settled on CQC and I'm a DIY and could care less if any of the products above worked well for 1 or 1000 of those users..in my personal situation each product has something the other didn't but I assure you they all had negatives also..once again the graphics thing meant nothing on any of them for me it usually came down to the reliability and support and how when it controlled my equipment.


From what I've seen so far you seem to be hopping into all this pretty quickly and I hope you have enough time to properly test all your equipment, confirm you have drivers for everything or what the cost is to have them all made and also confirm some basic operational things..just because a software seems to work fine controlling 100 discs do not think it will work the same with over 1000 discs, you better test it yourself or have confirmation from real users and not just because someone tells you it will work and they don't even have 1000 discs.


----------



## cavalier240

There are so many independent issues related to using a product of this type, that I am quite amazed how people are formulating arguments to try to dictate what the "masses" would want in an interface. In my eyes, I think both products have done a great job given that they can accomodate the wide range of interface styles that I have seen on here.


As stated in a past post, first and foremost, usability is key. My background is in systems engineering with a specialty in human factors and human-computer interfacing, and that is the first point that is ever taught in an HCI course. To be useful, an interface must afford easy execution of tasks, and provide useful feedback as to that execution and the state of the system. Each of these elements, however, is guided by the application of the system - which I see as the first big difference between say MarkP and IVB. It appears that Mark is using his system in a very location centric manner where he wants his actions and interfaces to be governed by his location in the house. On the complete opposite of the spectrum is IVB who, as I see it, wants complete system control regardless of what room he is in. Given that defining difference, the designs of their interfaces inherently have to be different.


Having said that, there are several key elements common to interface design period. An interface can be either too busy that it becomes difficult to find a button, or too simple where there are no buttons and no intuitive controls. The balance is often extremely difficult to determine. The beauty about these systems, is that we are designing them for ourselves and we each know what works for us.


As I am developing my system, I have decided that I want the base to be full system control from any location. In order to accomplish this, there needs to be a common element to each screen. In my case, it will be a navigation bar on the left hand side where regardless of which control screen you are on, it is easy to navigate the system. Each overlay screen will then be specific to the room/device I am controlling. My second concern was usability for people other than me. As a result, there are no hidden buttons or fancy light indicators. Just clearly labeled controls that are easy to understand and provide appropriate feedback. I subscribe to the KISS method. Just my $0.02.


----------



## CTay

I just wanted to slip in here as post 533 to say that I chose CQC with out ever thinking about animation. I looked at templates like this and this and felt that the user interface was plenty nice for me. Frankly I would much rather have my automation software work 100% and support the devices that I wish to use. If / when someone makes a cool animated interface I'll download it and use it for FREE in CQC.


Chris


----------



## cavalier240




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CTay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just wanted to slip in here as post 533 to say that I chose CQC with out ever thinking about animation. I looked at templates like this and this and felt that the user interface was plenty nice for me. Frankly I would much rather have my automation software work 100% and support the devices that I wish to use. If / when someone makes a cool animated interface I'll download it and use it for FREE in CQC.
> 
> 
> Chris



100% in agreement.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavalier240* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There are so many independent issues related to using a product of this type, that I am quite amazed how people are formulating arguments to try to dictate what the "masses" would want in an interface. In my eyes, I think both products have done a great job given that they can accomodate the wide range of interface styles that I have seen on here.
> 
> 
> As stated in a past post, first and foremost, usability is key. My background is in systems engineering with a specialty in human factors and human-computer interfacing, and that is the first point that is ever taught in an HCI course. To be useful, an interface must afford easy execution of tasks, and provide useful feedback as to that execution and the state of the system. Each of these elements, however, is guided by the application of the system - which I see as the first big difference between say MarkP and IVB. It appears that Mark is using his system in a very location centric manner where he wants his actions and interfaces to be governed by his location in the house. On the complete opposite of the spectrum is IVB who, as I see it, wants complete system control regardless of what room he is in. Given that defining difference, the designs of their interfaces inherently have to be different.
> 
> 
> Having said that, there are several key elements common to interface design period. An interface can be either too busy that it becomes difficult to find a button, or too simple where there are no buttons and no intuitive controls. The balance is often extremely difficult to determine. The beauty about these systems, is that we are designing them for ourselves and we each know what works for us.
> 
> 
> As I am developing my system, I have decided that I want the base to be full system control from any location. In order to accomplish this, there needs to be a common element to each screen. In my case, it will be a navigation bar on the left hand side where regardless of which control screen you are on, it is easy to navigate the system. Each overlay screen will then be specific to the room/device I am controlling. My second concern was usability for people other than me. As a result, there are no hidden buttons or fancy light indicators. Just clearly labeled controls that are easy to understand and provide appropriate feedback. I subscribe to the KISS method. Just my $0.02.



Great post.


The interface that we use now is actually not as "flashy" as some of our earlier designs. However we found (with REAL usability testing with our customers) that it is easier to use. The important of every element has to be weighed and it is part science and part art and as you say it is extremely difficult to determine the proper balance. The most challenging thing about GUI design is getting your ego out of the way as the designer. It is VERY difficult not to gravitate towards what we as designers find attractive and/or usable, but that may have very little to do with what the end user finds usable.


----------



## IVB

Cavalier, that's a good breakdown of what I want, with one slight modification: I want full system control of any HA or HT function from any location with a highly usable interface. For my target audience, I have accomplished that fully.


For me, highly usable means a common nav element as a wrapper for my screens. This is because my audience understands that method of interaction. Varying screens by location would just confuse the heck out of my users because they'd have to look at the screen and then decide how to interact with it. If I keep it 100% the same, down to the color, I can minimize the learning curve.


In addition, In my 96yr old craftsman house, the touchscreen is NOT a piece of art, rather it needs to blend into the background of the house and be as invisible as possible. It's decorated in "period' style and the opposite of modern, meaning all these fancy graphics would be vastly out of place and visually halting. My 3400 is wallmounted in the kitchen, but it's way too obtrusive for me and i'm looking for a way to even minimize that. It's just that I don't feel like dumping $1K on a super-nice flushmount screen - wouldn't have the ROI for me.


Finally, I'm not just doing HomeTheaterAutomation - I'm doing complete HomeAutomation. It is inherently more complex to automate a full house than pieces of a house, and my UI needs to handle that. I don't want to put up touchscreens and then only be able to access pieces of it from any given location. From a "pieces under control" perspective that means lighting, HVAC, irrigation, CCTV, security, as well as all A/V. In addition, I'm doing tons of "cross-discipline" integration, meaning the security should be able to pause the A/V if the doorbell rings, UNLESS the user has put the house into DND mode through the UI.


And, in the end, given that my target audience feels that I do have a highly usable and intuitive interface, and given that they're the anti-geeks (again, actor, 2 teachers, architect, marketing communications person), I'm content with what I have and would rather see more nuts & bolts assembled to add more functionality.


Perhaps once I've gotten all the nuts & bolts I need to "complete" the HA setup, I'd be interested in revisiting the interface, but if I had to choose between making the screens even easier to use or having better control over what I own, it's an easy choice for me.


Of course, your opinion may be different, and that's why my path may not be right for you. That's cool too, I'm not going to get the Swedish Blonde either way, as long as you're happy that's what counts. All I can do is educate folks on what I did and why, and leave it to them to decide what that means to them.


----------



## smoothtlk

Well, from MainLobby's perspective, you can use static images or you can use animations (yours or Cinemars).

Contemporary, Classic, Traditional, whatever.

Makes no difference. The tool supports all.


The default scenes are there as a way for users to get going quick with quick satisfaction and functionality. You can throw them away and build your own, or tweek the ones that are there and make them "dealerized" or "customerized" whatever is your need.

Most importantly they are there to serve as a model of ways the technology can be used to accomplish end goals.


For those that have not used ML3, this is different from what you may have used before.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, from MainLobby's perspective



Does Mainlobby still have the same perspective where all music is played using that black and yellow flash creation?


No bashing at all David but you may recall I had *many* complaints about not being able to make it customized at all..to display track names it gets displayed in that off black/yellow .swf that cannot be edited..has this been changed so users can make a music screen look anyway they want?


I know you have the basic transport buttons separate and had a few done before I left but my major concern was being forced to use that flash thing to view the track name and also those teeny grey buttons...yes yes I know they can be scaled and that is not the same as everything else is scaled..has this changed with all the improvements to ML3 or does it basically look the same as the last version...I can't seem to find any new screenshots on your website showing any different.


I also had a problem with my 1100+ album collection and displaying the cover art..has this problem been fixed yet? I recall at the time Cinemars recommended solution was "Don't use the coverart and use text view instead" ..I still have to giggle at that suggestion and could just imagine Escient trying to suggest that to their users 


Hopefully you don't mind me asking these sorts of questions each time this thread starts to move and then you start advertising...if the product truly is different and I am speaking of Musiclobby I cannot seem to find *any* screenshots posted on your sales page at all showing custom music control interfaces..it looks like that same thing from ML2 that I complained about?


If you can point out even one example of a user showing an albums coverart/tracks/ not having to be displayed in in the black and yellow thing or the black thing with silver buttons I'd like to see it...it seems everytime I see a music control screen in Mainlobby they all have that same black and yellow thing?


Can all the buttons to work that thing be separated yet or *just* the transport controls like it was last year?


**EDIT - David this is the black/yellow thing I'm talking about..can people change the color/shape of this or are they forced to use this to display all the track names or choose them? I am pretty sure the coverart can be displayed without that border but that was the least of my worries back then..its those god awful yellow headers/buttons and I have no problem whatsoever calling them that, to each his own and I could care less if 5000 think that yellow text and header color is cool..its not my style at all.


The thing the coverart is displayed in..can the coverart just be designed to float on a page or possibly slide in or fade in but without that black/yellow thing around it with that *yellow* text...I am sure many purchasers might like the option to change the color of the yellow text and when I used the product that wasnt possible at all...you may recall i requested and wonder if 18 months later people can indeed change this to something they like instead.


----------



## smoothtlk




















Move anything where you want it, whatever font, coverart or none, etc.

This is for support of the iPort docking station. I just published a similar UI that displays stock portfolios and values. Very reusable. Make it look like you want.


BTW, MusicLobby was tintable for a LONG time. You could also show / hide controls or move many of them around.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Move anything where you want it, whatever font, coverart or none, etc.
> 
> This is for support of the iPort docking station. I just published a similar UI that displays stock portfolios and values. Very reusable. Make it look like you want.



Yes I see that is for the Iport..looks nice, can the same be done to access 1100 albums with jrmc..that was the question I was asking.


Can you point me to *any* example of a user doing something similar but controlling albums in jrmc using the Musiclobby product..I can't see to find any screenshots of anything..this is for the Iport..what about jrmc?


Where it is showing the Artist and song names in your iport example it is a grey background and I'm sure I'd be right in assuming this is a .swf, can a custom graphics be used instead of the color you have chosen?


All I am asking is to see *any* user examples of custom music control interfaces besides that black/yellow flash .swf ...I am not looking to see examples of the iport but perhaps I should have been more specific to avoid going in circles.


Perhaps because this is working right now I assume and is the new Mainlobby3 that I can go purchase and control my music collection you'll have no problem capturing a few images for us right now showing this same thing controlling your music collection in JRiver?


Why if the control of Musiclobby3 is actually like the images you posted are you using images that appear to be Musiclobby2 on your website?


Just to once again make sure you are understanding David..can Musiclobby3 and specifically Jriver be controlled the same way as the Iport screen captures you just posted..can a person purchase Musiclobby3 today and make it look anything like what you just posted to control JRMC...as mentioned if it is possible today* please post some screenshots as I'd love to see what you've done, thanks.



> Quote:
> BTW, MusicLobby was tintable for a LONG time. You could also show / hide controls or move many of them around.



Tintable?..hmm I am speaking of the yellow text for the track names...you seem to be avoiding some very specific questions regarding the yellows..perhaps maybe a Mainlobby user would shed some truth on this if you can't give an honest answer to some *very basic* questions...you know as well as I do the black border around the coverart and around your track listing could not be changed by tint..if it cant please show everybody in this therad even one SINGLE example of the specific things I am mentioning being tintable or changeable..lets not avoid it either 


Specifically David this image right under this sentence and the black that appears in it, can you make it a light blue..if so please show an example..thank you











If the grey buttons that appear beside each track name can be changed..please show an example..no excuses, if the yellow text can be changed to red..PLEASE show an example..no B.S David you should be able to easily be able to show this right?


P.S I'll accept things if you admit I am correct and those specific things cannot have the color changed...I'll even leave you alone but have this feeling you will completely change subjects like you just did with the iport thing...nice try however ;-)


----------



## Ripper99

Calling all Mainlobby users...can even one of you show me Musiclobby in its most current version controlling Jriver using an interface like David posted above?..I read on those captures


Media Management:iPort


I really have no idea whatsoever why David would all of a sudden start advertising his Iport stuff when I was asking him about Musiclobby?


The way David talk most of the time he must have 100's of examples of what he just posted controlling Jriver..you would think all of his users would be using it and showing off their designs? Oddly...I see no examples anywhere from Musiclobby users...hmmm


----------



## Mr.Tim

I just did a quick search over at cinemar and it does appear that musiclobby can be customized per David's last post. I'm not an actual user so I'm sure if I am wrong somebody will shoot me.. err I mean correct me










When I was over "there" I also happened to notice a "Mega" package being marketed. hmmm


Tim


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mr.Tim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just did a quick search over at cinemar and it does appear that musiclobby can be customized per David's last post. I'm not an actual user so I'm sure if I am wrong somebody will shoot me.. err I mean correct me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I was over "there" I also happened to notice a "Mega" package being marketed. hmmm
> 
> 
> Tim



Could you please post an example to the customization you see for Musiclobby..Davids posting of screenshots was for something entirely different and specifically the iPort plugin they market.


I'd love to see Lathans custom Musiclobby design he has made using the sort of features David is advertising about but in his thread with all the stuff he has made I don't see anything of the sort http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/f...pic.php?t=8010 


You will notice his DVD screen he made has the black frames I was mentioning and the silver buttons..not sure why he would keep that stuff if it was totally customizable? Also not sure why he wouldn't just tint that black and maybe make it look sorta silver to match everything else if its been available for a LONG time as David replied to me after I asked about changing the color?

http://project2501.tzo.com/opening-c...-movielist.jpg 


**Lathan if you can please post a link to your Musiclobby template so this can all be cleared up and we can see how customizable it is, thanks.



Here is another user with Musiclobby and the interface I speak of for controlling music

http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/f...pic.php?t=7842 


Here is a direct link so David doesn't once again get confused about what I am saying

http://www.kw1816.plus.com/musiclobby.JPG


----------



## smoothtlk

Ripper, You said MUSIC. iPort is one method for MUSIC. The iPort interface concept was developed to be reusable across all media. and not just MUSIC. The iPort heading is just some text that could easily say "Stock Portfolio".











The MusicLobby back end was rewritten since you been around. The UI aspects of it are next. That started with the UI for the iPort. The original post was not about Music, but about user interfaces in general. I said "From a MainLobby perspective...."


Once again, you have turned this thread into a "rip this" debate.


----------



## Ripper99

David..lets not play semantics...MUSICLOBBY 100% customizable or not?


Lets not try and make me look like the bad guy...you knew exactly what I was askiing and instead of answering tried to advertise yet another product.


Weeks ago you tried to pull the very same move when questioned about Weather Channel data and whether or not you were legally allowed to do what you were doing...you tried to avoid it until multiple people called you on it and then from what I recall you were drafting a statement to provide an answer?


Just curious is that answer ready yet or will you turn this around again and say I'm the bad guy.


You can only BS so many people David but guaranteed many won't stand for it and will call you on it if you try to beat around the bush and play the semantics game..I posted pictures to the Musiclobby interface yet you replied with advertising for your iport plugin...nice try 



EDIT: This post was edited after David quickly edited his and admitted in a very few words and I quote



> Quote:
> The MusicLobby back end was rewritten since you been around. The UI aspects of it are next.



The short and sweet of it...at this time it is not customizable like the Iport interface he posted..not at all and for him to even attempt to make you think that is wrong...perhaps when he has Musiclobby3 finished and working and interfacing like the iport graphics he shows then he can start tooting his trumpet...until then its all COMING SOON.


Again David I am not the bad guy..I have the facts and you beat around the bush, plain and simple...any time I catch you in a lie or simply call you out to show proof the very first thing you do is try to say I'm picking a fight etc, a bit of honesty goes a long way when your trying to be a salesman and want people to respect your word....your tactics remind me of salesmen I try to avoid.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samgreco* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can't seem to grasp where all of this anger is coming from. There are 2 different approaches, from 2 different companies being discussed here. The fact is that they both have their own way of seeing things.
> 
> 
> It doesn't have to be an ideological war. I don't think that IVB deserves the bashing he's getting. I have found him to be very helpful. Really above and beyond the call. I have seen him recommend products other than CQC if he felt that it was in the posters best interest.
> 
> 
> MarkP wants a flashy (no pun intended) animated interface. Well that's just peachy and his right to do so. But not to demand or chastised those, includung Dean, who don't agree.
> 
> 
> MarkP - if you're right and there are hundreds or thousands just chomping at the bit for what you describe, then Dean won't get that business. It's his decision which market he goes after. If he's wrong, he looses. If he's right he wins.
> 
> 
> Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't make them evil or even wrong. Just a differing view.
> 
> 
> I dont happen to agree with MarkP's view of interface. I don't particularly like IVB's either. BUT I appreciate the approaches. I happen to be looking for something a little different.
> 
> 
> For instance, when my wife walks up to the touchscreen and wants to play music, shuoldshe have to know which "source" to pick if I have 3 different digital streams possible from the server? Or should she just be able to pick an album and click play?
> 
> 
> To me those are the issues of importance. Usability.
> 
> 
> And no-one will get my business if they take side jabs at the competition that have nothing to do with the product itself. In all of my years in sales, I have NEVER bashed my competition. I will discuss the differences in products and why I think my products approach is better.
> 
> 
> OK, I'm done now.
> 
> 
> Everyone try and chill and have a great Holiday Season.



Not sure how you know what I want in an interface when I dont even know, I know I want it partially modern like a PS3, X360, Media Center,Tivo, basically everything that has an interface except automation software. If youre talking about my lighting scenerio, thats what Ive chose for the screen in my office, its for ME, I have lihting scenes setup with no buttons at all, no text, nothing. Its mine, I know where and what to touch to make things happen. This was purposeful since my wife or I can setup scenes. No one else from "my" screen. The projects Im working on will have screens for chefs, maids, owners Master Bed, Guest houses, Guest rooms, Pool Rooms, Game Rooms , Theaters, resturants.....................


One screen fits all doesnt, wont, will not work. The comments about all the screens need to be the same and yada ya is so far off base in my situation I have concluded I dont want to explain anymore because when I try posting what Im talking about 2 individuals jump in and start calling me a pompus rich arsehole that says this and that and means this and that. Then they say something about ownng my type of speakers and I say I have DIY speakers they say who cares about your speakers. Its unbelievable, I said I wanted modern or post 1900's interfaces and was instantly told by 4 individuals what was proper and what was right calling my ideas stupid and non functional but were quick to defend with personal attacks and stereotyping when I said no one I know wants that. No one does, since yesterday I have went through this with atleast 18 more people and those people were , Real Estate agent, Architect-design, City Council Members, 2 Winery Owners, Owner, Owners Sister, her son just back from Iraq and a Limo Driver while spending the entire day discussing the transformation of a Historical Building. I wish I had my presentation better prepared but ran out of time and used mine and demoed as many screens as I could dig up plus some OI had whipped up in ML. I was suprised 2 people actually did like the buttons pages ( Lathan your wood grain with Black Buttons I asked about last week, need the Brushed metal Brass or maybe Green or Burgandy Marble) Nice JOB, everyone felt those would work in places if I can change to differant fonts. This is awhile off so I may get with you if you dont mind via PM or something.


The rest agreed with exactly what I knew already, I knew this because Ive asked every walk of lifeI can think of to try and be appealing to everyone since everyone will use these in the 3 major projects Im on right now.


Im sorry Im working on 3 seperate resorts, if it offends people that theres alot of money involved so that automatically transfers to rich snobby stereotypes( what was it Ripper said, Bruce Wayne)


All I ever needed was a simple answer, can an animation be placed on an interface like everyother interface on the planet, we love the fact we have power to design them ourselves. Or pay Lathan, if he has free time.


----------



## Ripper99

First off..I never called you a pompus rich arsehole and don't recall anybody else saying anything of the sort?


As for your speakers I never said anything about them..I recall asking if I had to have a certain size screen, a certain type of speakers or whatever to be on par with your circle of freinds or whatever you called it...I'm sure if I mentioned my speakers I'd get some idiot reply from somebody so its best left unsaid and doesnt matter in the scope of this thread.


As for the Bruce Wayne comment..jesus Mark relax, you think your the only guy in the world with money? I made the Bruce Wayne comment simply as a joke and if you took it any differently oh well.


Many people tried to give you simple answers until you started saying crap like "50 buttons on a screen" "looks like a screen my ten year would use" as well as the comments against IVB..try to disguise it anyway you want but you showed you true colors ina few quick strokes of the keyboard.


No need to be sorry your working on 3 resorts..not sure why you even need to mention it?


I'm not sure why it would offend anybody about how much money you have...most people with money need not make mention of anything the same way the tough guy in the crowd is usually the the guy that says nothing.


Good luck with your project.


----------



## Mike_W

Mark, I thought Dean gave a good response on page 18, post 529 of this thread. I'm curious how you would respond to it. His response seems to be based on real feedback from real customers.


----------



## LathanM

"I'm getting off this merry-go-round!" The Hudsucker Proxy (1994)


All the round and round, finger pointing, axe grinding, whining, attempts to one up, off track side roads (a few of those were mine







) and infighting on both sides has driving me to this. Have fun all.










To anyone reading this thread just pick a product and try it out. Both do essentially the same things. Each has their advantages and disadvantages and the only way to be sure is to buy one and get on with your life. If the choice doesn't fit your development style you try something different. That is the way life is.


----------



## smoothtlk

Me too LathanM. Large waste of time.

Signing off.


And, Ripper, I answered your post above.


----------



## thartigh

Ripper,


Here are some answers (I hope) to your questions.


Musiclobby has had a major change but the way you search the music is using the same UI with some modifications from user requests. These mods have made it easier to use, thought the colors are the same.


Musiclobby can handle large collections.. So far I have found the best way to search is using the thumbs view. It now has a search button that pops up a keyboard. Other search methods were added as well. Searches take place very fast as well as change quickly between pages of coverart.


The controls for just about anything jrivers can do can be programmed into your own buttons without needing to use the musiclobby UI. Any information about the song in jrivers is automatically placed into global variable in mlserver. You can even include lyrics with the free add on plugin. (lyrics update whenever a song changes)


So the sky is the limit on how you want track info and now playing information displayed.


Also with some work you can kinda (did I say kinda) make your own interface using the smart playlists and view schemes then calling them directly from any button that you want to program. This would include things like:

play playlist (smart) which is all music from XXX group rated 3 higher.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First off..I never called you a pompus rich arsehole and don't recall anybody else saying anything of the sort?
> 
> 
> As for your speakers I never said anything about them..I recall asking if I had to have a certain size screen, a certain type of speakers or whatever to be on par with your circle of freinds or whatever you called it...I'm sure if I mentioned my speakers I'd get some idiot reply from somebody so its best left unsaid and doesnt matter in the scope of this thread.



Whatever I called it? I said Ive asked normal people to people with a little cash and you and someone else got so offended you started throwing out BS non related to this thread or any discussion we've been having. I think anyone with a brain can figure this out



> _Quote:_
> _
> 
> 
> Perhaps your of some elite group huh?
> 
> 
> Do I have to maybe have a set of speakers like yours and cool audio equipment to to be part of your group? Or maybe a 100" screen gets me into your club?
> 
> 
> Perhaps you think your group is better than mere mortals like us..._


_
_




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As for the Bruce Wayne comment..jesus Mark relax, you think your the only guy in the world with money? I made the Bruce Wayne comment simply as a joke and if you took it any differently oh well.



So Im supposed to relax but let you get uptight about something looking Nintendo ( because it is) and working in a 10 year olds room, Hipocrasy runs so deep in this crowd we need an excavator to remove half of it. People get all giddy and excited about ripping on Flash or Fade ins but seem to tighten up when someone doesnt like Nintendo icons on 30 million dollar resorts and Luxury Suites.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Many people tried to give you simple answers until you started saying crap like "50 buttons on a screen" "looks like a screen my ten year would use" as well as the comments against IVB..try to disguise it anyway you want but you showed you true colors ina few quick strokes of the keyboard.



Pot .... kettle, kettle........ pot. We saw your colors many pages before this little tiff started, I could drag in multiple quotes through out this thread but weve all read along and noticed the multiple tirades. And it wasnt many, it was 4. The same amount that said they understood exactly what I am saying.



> _Quote:_
> _
> 
> 
> Umm just to point out something *VERY* obvious you are not seeing nothing incredible especially considering your weather data is being scraped from weather.com every X minutes so let me ask...do you all just sit around for lets say 15 minutes till new data is scraped with your freinds and go "Look! Look! did you see the arrow move from N to NW...WOW! thats so sweeeeeet" ...come on guys..please don't tell me this impresses the wife or your freinds_


_
_ You're pretty good, you can insult companies, and my wife and friends all in one meaningless to this thread sentence, do we see a pattern here? Yours and 3 others opinion on multiple touchscreened Resorts and Luxury Suites.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No need to be sorry your working on 3 resorts..not sure why you even need to mention it?
> 
> 
> I'm not sure why it would offend anybody about how much money you have...most people with money need not make mention of anything the same way the tough guy in the crowd is usually the the guy that says nothing.
> 
> 
> Good luck with your project.



I guess I see no difference between a home with one touchscreen ( I was informed quickly that all touchscreens in a building should be the same, different colors.


I was explaining whats going on you see, we do this in business, We make a phone call and say " Yes Mr. Ripper, glad to meet you! My names Mark and Ive been reading about your product and its described as the most powerful automation software in the Universe on page after page on a forum called AVS. What we are doing is building 3 theme resorts, not really theme but resorts in Fiji, A Canadian Wildlife refuge and an 1850s Historical Building thats been ruined through the years and we are restoring it and leaving the storefronts on street level and adding a 12K sq. ft. restaurant below and 4 Luxury Suites above with a centered Ballroom and roof top gardens. We are looking into automation and like the idea of customizable screens with a reliable backend. We are hoping the interfaces will match their surroundings and be of current technology. The reason we need this is because being in this business we have quite exhaustive research into what and how people are stimulated into spending their monies on "our" product. We know the majority of favorite color, smell, building substrates, decor, and visual impacts and the effects these have on bringing customers back as well as word of mouth expansion of customers.


I do apologize to anyone I offended in this thread, when I research the things I research is usually much more aggressive than demonstrated in this thread. We have may things to accomplish in a short amount of time and this takes aggressive, quick and honest answers. We are good at sniffing out BS on the phone and in person but are learning to navigate the "way of the future" internet. In real life If I ask a simple question, and someone representing a product says Im wrong and dont know what Im looking for and I just dont understand that what I want is not whats important........ I say "Thank you for your time"


I never planned on explaining our intent and figured it would be a pleasant suprise to those whos products became involved, Its not everyday products become involved with 30 million dollar projects and honestly this can be intimidating to some small businesses because these are our main target because of their willingness to give their all in moving to the next step. Sometimes these companies need a little help moving to the next step but their attitude and work ethic is more exciting and fun than a company thats lost that touch through the years. Its been awhile since I have had to take their pitch to the final level, Im paid to make these decisions and run with them. We usually dont approach them full bore and all barrels blazing instantly, not because we dont trust them but dont want them becoming exhausted and confused to the point of nervous break down. We like to enjoy everyone and everyone enjoy us, we have zero stress between the trades, Thats left to the interior designer and myself and thats because we unload our stress on eachother. Its quite hilarious to others to watch us in action Ive been informed, usually makes some peole days if not weeks. He in his pink scarf, myself in my faded jeans with all ten of his fingers flailing saying " Mawkus, Mawkus ma love, I dunt wuan to hear thus gubbuly goof abute newt possible, see my visions precious, and make it happen, ok love? ( Im guessing it ends in a question mark and afte all these years cant accept the word 'codes'. All this coming from 5'2" 120lbs speaking to 6'2" 250lbs hick ( since Ive been called this too many times to count it must be a fair representation).


If I would take static screens with buttons to this encounter, trust me when I say I would be laughed at, not just in the room but all the way down the street hanging out the window and its quite embarrasing and I usually look at others and ask " Is he talking to you?" its not the kind of laugh I want to deal with anymore than I already do. In all fairness he knows his chit and we make a good team as long as we give eachother whats expected from the get go. We have learned through the years what that is.


Sorry I asked in the first place, I should have responded the way I usually do and move on. I dont beg anyone because someone else out there is willing and time is precious, Back to pocket PC questions, Ill bow along with Lathan and David.


----------



## Dean Roddey

I'm sorry you found our product lacking. But, I'd have begged off of such a project anyway, even if you had not. It would be too big a step for us to get involved in at this time. It would require us to put all our eggs into one basket at the expense of the more general automation market, which is really our target, and more general product develoment, which is much more important right now for our long term success. I.e. it would have just required us to narrow our focus too much at this time. Perhaps Cinemar would be a better choice for you.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm sorry you found our product lacking. But, I'd have begged off of such a project anyway, even if you had not. It would be too big a step for us to get involved in at this time. It would require us to put all our eggs into one basket at the expense of the more general automation market, which is really our target, and more general product develoment, which is much more important right now for our long term success. I.e. it would have just required us to narrow our focus too much at this time. Perhaps Cinemar would be a better choice for you.



Your product isnt lacking, thats why we purchased it and honestly will still probably be incorporated due to cell phone activation, this I have not researched and try squeezing this into my free time because from my understanding Cinemar doesnt have this capability. This in itself was worth $500. I need to figure out just how to make Cinemar and CQC work in unison somehow. I have already figured out how to make your products do things through experimentation that Im not sure anyones considered yet involving you products activating a daisychain effect. I think your both right in that anything is possible through different means. If a driver isnt available, this is usually not the end of the world I have found. Theres more than one way to skin a cat.


If you get around to adding the capabilty of dropping animations into an interface, its done on my side. No one asked anyone to drop everything and come install or write drivers to control any of our unique situations, The Elk can handle 90%. Ive already accomplished everything I need to implement in the projects stateside, With the coup in Fiji, that gives me a little time to figure that out


The reason Im taking a cram course on this is I know/knew it would take Crestron/AMX so I had them come bid a theater with the hopes that maybe letting them come in and relieve some load since this is what they do. My son is picking this stuff up pretty fast so he can probably deal with the automation aspects when not in school and playing and needing some spending money. I wasnt going to bring any of this up anyway but some couldnt grasp why one ultimate screen wasnt controlling a house, more like multiple screens, contolling multiple houses inside of a big house. So to speak. We may just pull hair and hire these young kids out there doing this these days with Control4 type products. Back to the interface again though. Maybe my Daughter has the right Idea with " cant we just flip a switch?" That may be the ultimate answer other than music , thermostat and lighting. Hopefully you do understand that this











would be fine in the mechanical rooms, not so much in other areas


Again we like using sole proprietors mainly because they have the most incentive to impress. Whether they are on the job or not, we just feel you usually get 110% from them which ultimately leads to their success


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Hopefully you do understand that this would be fine in the mechanical rooms, not so much in other areas



That's not a fair statement. That screen is NEVER accessed directly. Heck, I believe I've only accessed it myself perhaps twice in 9 months. If that's what you think I've been making my relatives access, no wonder you think my stuff is confusing - hell, i think that screen is confusing.


It's only there as a master reset/what-the-heck-is-going-on type screen in case the activity-based coding behind the below screens doesn't work cuz I screwed something up while tinkering with the rest of the system.


This screen comes up if you press the source button on the left-nav (ie, want to change the source in a room)













this screen comes up if you press CD/DVD/XM/etc


----------



## Ripper99

Mark..sometimes whats said in forums isn't always whats meant and when you can't see the other person face to face sometimes its not easy to exactly understand them or sometimes comments made will seem like something they are not and that leads to mud slinging.


Either way at this point I'll just switch to low gear and idle instead of quoting everything you just posted above and dragging this out further..It's very doubtful I'd be able to reply much through the Xmas holidays anyways and I think I'd be better off spending time with the family.


Some of the things you are trying to achieve are probably alot different than what I'm trying to achieve and what alot of others are trying to accomplish for our personal systems...I've been there done that and got the t-shirt so to say and I'm finally realizing what works for the other guy doesn't always work for me.


One thing I have learned over the years through all of this is no matter how good something sounds you will never really know how well it works for you until you have it controlling your media with your hardware in your home...you can take everybody's word for it but words don't necessarily guarantee reliability.


I wish you the best with whatever you choose to do and hope you will do alot of research, I jumped into many of these home automation hardwares and software since about 1999 and started with Crestron and then decided to DIY shortly after purchasing and returned everything..here were are 7 years later and I can say I've tried just about everything 


It will be interesting to see where your at 1 year from now and what product you actually settle with.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I guess I see no difference between a home with one touchscreen ( I was informed quickly that all touchscreens in a building should be the same, different colors.



You have quite a way of twisting things Mark. I was responding to someone else and hadn't even read your post. I don't read all of your long rants as you've said the same thing again and again and again. And you seem to try to turn everything into some lack of respect for your ideas if someone disagrees with you. People have stated several times why they do not believe that Flash effects should be a priority on the road map. Nothing more. No one that I can recall mocked what you wanted and as people understood how much you wanted them they listened and even adjusted their opinions somewhat.


One of the problems is it's a bit hard to give someones opinion the respect it might deserve when they constantly indulge in hyperbole and insults such as how they'd be "laughed out of the room" of they showed someone that. You aren't the only one that's involved in large projects - these static screens you would be laughed out of the room over seem to work fine in plenty of large projects some in the billions of dollars.


And I was expression my *opinion* about good GUI design. That's what people do here, it wasn't someone dismissing you. If you want people listening intently and pretending to give great respect to all of your opinions whether they really agree with them or not call in some sales people.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You have quite a way of twisting things Mark. I was responding to someone else and hadn't even read your post. I don't read all of your long rants as you've said the same thing again and again and again. And you seem to try to turn everything into some lack of respect for your ideas if someone disagrees with you. People have stated several times why they do not believe that Flash effects should be a priority on the road map. Nothing more. *No one that I can recall mocked what you wanted and as people understood how much you wanted them they listened and even adjusted their opinions somewhat.
> *
> 
> One of the problems is it's a bit hard to give someones opinion the respect it might deserve when they constantly indulge in hyperbole and insults such as how they'd be "laughed out of the room" of they showed someone that. You aren't the only one that's involved in large projects - these static screens you would be laughed out of the room over seem to work fine in plenty of large projects some in the billions of dollars.
> 
> 
> And I was expression my *opinion* about good GUI design. That's what people do here, it wasn't someone dismissing you. If you want people listening intently and pretending to give great respect to all of your opinions whether they really agree with them or not call in some sales people.



You must have skipped an entire page or two then, I never asked for Crestrons opinion on modern interfaces, I knew they were null and void to begin with so when they comeout even harder against Flash and well done graphical interfaces and make a mockery of what a massive list of Global Giants want in design. You 4 can laugh and joke and pass along your ideas of whats important all day long and nobodies hurt but when someones truthful about their disappointment in developements in the interfaces, its a tag team of attemping to put that person in his place since he doesnt understand the priorities of automation. I brought up gaming because these companies will work for years on a single game ( backend) as well as the frontend (dashboards)


I know Crestron and AMX do billion dollar projects, this is why they were called in non chalantly on a theater project that was designed to cover most everything needed in future expansion, When 'The quote' and advice as to how to approach the final result came in I was really quite suprised and I wont delve deeper into this because it doesnt belong here.


After 16 pages of Hyperbole and flatout pandering, solicitation, and vengence insues, I figured this was the way this group communicated. Youre quite correct about the path I took but the hypocracy that flows in and out of this thread is rather overwhelming. I think Ripper and I have concluded theres no need to cut & paste everything said because it would take days to accomplish Im all for just deleting everything I said and let the salesmanship and slander continue.


I revived this thread from death several times asking legit questions which turned into informative pleasant posting until the same ole result that was bound to happen occured. I actually got the 2 companies to list their weaknesses, took awhile but........


Im sorry my involvement in this thread is so distastfull to you, back to the worthwhile sales speak. Ill clean up my mess later today when I have time, it wont take to long


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ripper99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mark..sometimes whats said in forums isn't always whats meant and when you can't see the other person face to face sometimes its not easy to exactly understand them or sometimes comments made will seem like something they are not and that leads to mud slinging.



Agreed 100%, thats why phone calls are valuable to me if not face to face. I dont like this interwebnet do-hicky much, takes alot of valuable time. Scouring forums looking for answers is almost at its end thankfully. Peace be with all you in the next week and the rest of your lives.....See Ya all, been interesting


----------



## Mark P

For something no one cares about and never asks about. This was pointed out to me in a PM, supposedly theres more but I dont have time. http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum...ead.php?t=3256


----------



## Mark P

OK guys instead of flooding my PMs, state your cases here, I think it will only help the owners of these products understand what you want and need ( mainly you integrators)


I understand several of your reasons to go PM and respect the reason, Fantastic work to those if I missed replying and telling you so! not a bad bunch in the group. Continue to PM the interfaces , thats fine and I completely understand but voice your opinions here, you wont offend anyone, you will only help them understand.


Thanks, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE. J/K


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> Your product isnt lacking, thats why we purchased it and honestly will still probably be incorporated due to cell phone activation, this I have not researched and try squeezing this into my free time because from my understanding Cinemar doesnt have this capability. This in itself was worth $500.



Just so you know... It wouldn't be $500. The current DIY cost is $895, and you wouldn't be installing the DIY version anyway, you'd be installing the pro version, which would be in the $1700 to $2100 range. Probably the former since I don't think you'd be doing media management in these necessarily.


Not sure if that would make any difference, but just making sure you know. The DIY versions is best effort support via the support forum. Commercial installs require much more support and the pro price includes that support.


On using CQC and ML together, I'd have to be honest and wave you away from that. I don't think it would be something you would want to do. These systems need to be highly robust and stable. It would be in your best interests to take an extremely conservative approach and have the fewest 'moving parts' as possible. I think you should pick one or the other, even if it's not ours.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just so you know... It wouldn't be $500. The current DIY cost is $895, and you wouldn't be installing the DIY version anyway, you'd be installing the pro version, which would be in the $1700 to $2100 range. Probably the former since I don't think you'd be doing media management in these necessarily.
> 
> 
> Not sure if that would make any difference, but just making sure you know. The DIY versions is best effort support via the support forum. Commercial installs require much more support and the pro price includes that support.
> 
> 
> On using CQC and ML together, I'd have to be honest and wave you away from that. I don't think it would be something you would want to do. These systems need to be highly robust and stable. It would be in your best interests to take an extremely conservative approach and have the fewest 'moving parts' as possible. I think you should pick one or the other, even if it's not ours.



I already have the CQC 2.0 and its bought and paid for so I was talking tinkering for exploration. I agree about mixing the two would be slightly troublesome because Im doing it now, I have found conflicts in USB-UIRT and Insteon only when power is lost and the servers restart. other than that your two products get along rather well, much better than the customers










Seems theres some things happening that will get me covered regardless. I think Im good!


----------



## samgreco




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think you should pick one or the other, even if it's not ours.



I think it's important to repeat this.


Not many company owners say things like this.


I applaud you.


----------



## smoothtlk

samgreco, there are hundreds of users using MainLobby and Homeseer in a very nice, reliable, powerful combination. It is the most popular plugin that Homeseer sells - which in this small niche business is a lot of sales.


If this positive experience wasn't the case, then I too would say similar as Dean has. But, experience has proved otherwise, so his statement is not agreed to by me and probably the great majority of those HS / ML users, therefore not needed for me to concur with Dean's direction.


It's really no different than modular AV components. Each one has it's purpose and it's strengths. Is there more probability that one or another component will fail at any given day? Yes, that is the case just due to odds. But, that still hasn't eliminated the need for modular design to take advantage of strengths (in the right integrator's hands - whether that is a DIY'r or Pro). There are built in checks and balances to ensure that the complete system is operational (when used).


Again, different strategies for different folks. Just our experience has not reinforced that direction. These points of view have been discussed to no "end" before (no suprise there







) so I won't be chiming in any more, just wanted to introduce that there is another perspective to the issue.


Oh, to attempt to minimize the noise that these posts tend to make, I am sure Dean's system is very good. It's great to have good competition. It does make us better and the end user's will benefit. I fully expect Dean to spend more time emphasis on graphical display when he can. You can be sure Cinemar will not be sleeping much either. I applaud the progress Dean has made with his limited time. I know what it takes, and there is no doubt in my mind Dean "has no life" outside of CQC. Heck just getting rid of spammers on our mutual forums takes a hour or so a day.


----------



## QQQ

David,


I believe the issue is whether CQC and ML make a good combination, not whether ML and Home Seer make a good combination. There is no plugin and no communication between CQC and ML as far as I see...nor any reason I can imagine one would want to use both (I am sure Mark will get really upset at that statement but what the hey). AT LEAST if one wants and expects seamless integration. i.e. with the user never having to switch from one application to the other. To use an analogy, there are quite a few Crestron and AMX dealers out there, but to this day I've only seen one situation where someone purposely integrated the two. There is very little reason why one would want to attempt such a nightmare.


I may be looking at this from too much of a Crestron/AMX perspective so perhaps there is some good reason why one would want to run CQC and ML, but from having read through this thread I sure can't see one.


----------



## Dean Roddey

There is a difference between a DIY user and a commercial customer. The commercial customer must be many orders of magnitude more concerned with stability and minimizing the number of variables and the number of vendors that must be dealt with. If the DIY user's system has troubles they are the only one bothered by that. If it happens in a commercial venue, it's a serious problem and costs them money and 'face'.


In the case of CQC and ML, it's not a matter of modular components. It's like having two engines in the car, which don't work the same way.


----------



## IVB

Agreed, competition is a good thing. I don't mean this post as noise, but to offer my opinion on eliminating unnecessary risk.


If he can get ML to do everything he wants, (or work with you/Mario/LathanM to help him achieve that), the minimalist in me says "remove unneeded complexity", even if it means not using the product that i'm a fan of.


Just because one can get ML and CQC to work together doesn't mean you should. Unless there's a clear value add, I'm a big fan of KISS. For ML/HS, the incremental value-add is clear. For CQC vs ML (at least for what MarkP would use it for), it's much less clear. If CQC's value add for him is "just" cellphone activation, which I'm *guessing* means SMS or PDA integration, there might be an ML workaround that could bridge the gap.


As an enduser, unless I absolutely positively needed both systems up, I just wouldn't want to be in a position where suddenly things stopped working at exactly the wrong time, and both ML/CQC said "Our code seems to be fine. Must be the other guy."


Of course, MarkP or others are probably not as risk-phobic as I am, even contemplating automating 152 switches proves that


----------



## smoothtlk

Dean, MANY of those sales were to integrators who are installing the combined product in commerical and high end residential installations.


And, I have no doubt that there could be a robust connection if you and Cinemar put our minds to it. As you might remember, we had some discussion of that a couple of years ago (has it been that long?). Now, don't take that to mean that I am soliciting for that to occur.


QQQ, most of the HS users wanted to use ML initially as a "front end" for the graphical experience that ML brings. Pretty much what Mark has been discussing. Homeseer has the most driver coverage of any system, which sometimes made the ML / HS integration appealing to ML customers (more so at that time). CQC has a more advanced UI than Homeseer's so that diminishes that need for a ML / CQC integration. ML and CQC has currently a lot of overlap of hardware coverage, so not much need there either.


EDIT: IVB, I agree with what you are saying, it's sometimes just not all that easy to have full coverage in any one product. It is getting easier as CQC / ML / HS knock off user needs one by one as all of us are doing.



But, I did say I wouldn't chime in any more on this....


----------



## QQQ

David,


This type of issue comes up quite a bit with the systems I work with. For instance, it's common to integrate a Crestron system with a Lutron lighting system. In such cases there may be overlap - for instance "do I hook up my motion sensors to activate the lights to Crestron and then have Crestron tell Lutron when to activate certain lights or do I connect them directly through Lutron and let Crestron know what is happening in case there are other events I want triggers" etc. Such issues can be worked out and the integration of the two makes sense. That seems more analogous to integrating ML and HomeSeer as Home Seer last I looked was, shall we say a bit "poor" on the UI side







.


With ML and CQC the case as you seem to acknowledge is much less convincing and more akin to my Crestron and AMX analogy or for that matter Lutron and Vantage.


----------



## samgreco

David,


I was not in ANY way aiming those my comments at you. Please understand that I was just commending someone for doing something I thought was a standup thing to do.


I was not suggesting you wouldn't. Nor that you couldn't. In fact, I think it is indeed possible that you are BOTH standup guys










And I think it's time to say that I think both of your products are quite good. When it comes time to pick one, it'll be because it fits me. Nothing more, nothing less.


Like buying a pair of shoes. I not buying a pair 2 sizes to small because they look cool. That would be painful.


Maybe I can put Doc Martin laces on my Rockports....


----------



## ToyMaster458

David,


I am confused. I am re-reading Deans post...


> Quote:
> On using CQC and ML together, I'd have to be honest and wave you away from that. I don't think it would be something you would want to do. These systems need to be highly robust and stable. It would be in your best interests to take an extremely conservative approach and have the fewest 'moving parts' as possible. I think you should pick one or the other, even if it's not ours.



And not once did he say using MainLobby with HomeSeer or MainLobby with other products was a good idea and could not be done. All he said was using CQC and MainLobby was not something he would not suggest.


And based on your statement yours


> Quote:
> If this positive experience wasn't the case, then I too would say similar as Dean has. But, experience has proved otherwise, so his statement is not agreed to by me and probably the great majority of those HS / ML users, therefore not needed for me to concur with Dean's direction.



You are suggesting that MainLobby and CQC would make a great combination???


----------



## smoothtlk

I believe Dean's point was centered around using one product for all needs and not to mix two software products together to accomplish the need citing system reliability as the reason. He I believe was talking both generally and specifically.


Cinemar (and Homeseer) know from experience that this is not always the case. The assumption here is that the integration would be a quality one and bidirectional and designed so that one system doesn't "take the other out". Is both powerful AND reliable.


Actually it would probably be a good combination to get best of both products (like the ML / HS integration is). The ML/ HS integration is better than either company individual products. But, it adds more cost (trivial in the HA world), adds more expertise needed (not a huge thing), adds more complexity (manageable) and the possibility for reliability issues due to more "moving pieces" (manageable).


"Good" is a matter of perspective...each of these systems does more than the average (or even above average) user is going to need. If the needs are simple and met with one brand, then no need to add another. If the needs are signficiant (like in many high end installs), then there is no choice but to add the product that meets the need for the job and to integrate it. Just like adding another black box for another set of zones, another switching network, another bank of lights, another pool to control, whatever.


Do what ya gotta do to get the job done for the customer (even if that is yourself). All I am saying is don't dismiss the possibility to meet (exceed) customer needs by limiting the solution set.


CQC too uses this concept...still using TheaterTek and Zoom Player for renderers. This will continue until Dean writes his own. Lot of work to recreate the wheel each time. But, that is a choice each company makes with their limited resources.


----------



## QQQ

That's fine Dave, no one disagrees EXCEPT again, *what would be the advantage of using both CQC AND ML as you see it???* It seems the first 15 pages were you saying "there both good, see which one works best for you". I don't seem to recall you saying "gee, why don't you by both, you'll have even more power that way".


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I believe Dean's point was centered around using one product for all needs and not to mix two software products together to accomplish the need citing system reliability as the reason. He I believe was talking both generally and specifically.



I read no indication of that whatsoever.


----------



## ToyMaster458




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I read no indication of that whatsoever.



Neither do I, This is why I am confused. Was David reading between the lines where the rest of us can not see??


David

I agree with you that ML and HS make a good combination and it has for many years. At one time ML did not due alot of what HS did and vise-a-versa. But as time goes by and with the release of ML 3.0 there is less and less need for the combination. I would even go as far to say that by ML 4.0 there maybe no need for the ML and HS combination and I am sure that is a direction that ML is geared towards in the back of their heads.


----------



## smoothtlk

Well, maybe Dean can clarify as we are apparantly reading his words differently.....but I REALLY can't spend time on this issue as we got work to do. 12:30 and much to do.

Sorry Dean, I know you are busy too.


----------



## thartigh

I think you'all are reading a little deap into what he said.


I think he was agreeing that you wouldnt want to run cqc and ml togeather, but in some cases there is an exception to running two software packages to get the job done. Like running ml with homeseer. Since homeseer can do so much automation wise, many people (when the homeseer ml plugin came out) chose to combine ml with homeseer for a better front. Now that ml has gotten much stronger the need for homeseer is almost gone except for some devices that are not yet controllable with ml. hence why david said what he did.


I agree with dean and think that running minimal software packages is a major key for reliablility.


----------



## Dean Roddey

I've made it clear that I believe that one of CQC's great strengths is that it offers so much under a single umbrella, tightly coupled and tested together as a system. But that wasn't what I was talking about above. I was just making it clear to Mark that trying to mix CQC and ML wouldn't be a good idea.


----------



## CTay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, maybe Dean can clarify as we are apparantly reading his words differently.....but I REALLY can't spend time on this issue as we got work to do. 12:30 and much to do.
> 
> Sorry Dean, I know you are busy too.



I haven't jumped in much here, just watching from the sidelines but I just have to say I really don't like the way that you shamelessly pitch your product ALL THE TIME regardless of the situation. Dean simply stated that using CQC & ML together would probably give you bad results. Everyone else so far read Dean's comment that way too yet you tried to make some statement on how well ML works with Homeseer which was not even close to the point. When it is brought up that you COMPLETELY missed the point (intentionally or not) you no longer have time to respond?


You are leaving an increasingly bad taste in my mouth on every successive page...


----------



## smoothtlk

CTay, the intention was not to "pitch the product", only to advise that there is a difference of opinion that the one product pitch isn't the only viable direction. I think you are reading too much into my comments now.



If you will notice, I am "pitching" Homeseer too, and CQC as well for that matter. But, one will read into exactly what they want to get out of the discussion.


And, just for conversation sake, when I posted my response to Dean's latest comment on the "one stop shopping is the only way" method, I got an email from a Homeseer dealer who had a large job that required touchscreens and wanted to integrate the two together. I asked him if he had read AVSForum, and he had not. Just more votes that the single solution is not the only solution and that the integrator will be flexible until one or more of these solutions "do everything". The openeness of the product design and mindset will be what makes that impossible or easy. Since Dean seems to be squarly in the camp that he doesn't need or want or recommend any componentized solutions, then his customers will just have to wait to add VR, or other features for when Dean has the time to implement it. A MainLobby customer can wait for Cinemar to add VR, or integrate Homeseer or HAL for excellent VR capability with each (as one example of many).


Other quick examples that come to mind is Homeseer has scripts that support capturing of local movies that are playing. MainLobby doesn't have that feature. Does CQC? I haven't looked. Homeseer supports iAutomate RF natively. MainLobby doesn't, and neither does CQC today. ML and CQC customers will have to pay for a hardware box for the iAutomate solution that is not needed in Homeseer. So, that $ difference almost pays for Homeseer software and the iAutomate RF plugin. Adds another software component to the mix, but the alternative adds another hardware component. Choose your poison.


Homeseer supports the Stargate automation panel. ML or CQC don't. So, does the user throw out his several thousand dollar automation controller? Or does he wait until Dean writes the plugin for it (if ever)? Or does he just tie HS and ML together (or another flash front end, Maestro). that is the point.


And in some people's opinion, including a couple of Dean's Dealers, they believe MainLobby's UI is better than CQC's from an end presentation perspective. So, if you want to read into this conversation that the focus should be on ML / CQC integration, that would be a benefit that a couple of CQC's dealers have suggested. AGAIN, I am not suggesting that CQC and ML should do that. If Dean wanted to, Cinemar would consider it, but I am not seeing the return on investement to do that when looking at the likely CQC total population and the subset of that that might be interested in a blended solution and that the CQC principal is opposed (biggest reason).


Now, since MarkP was the one to introduce the subject of CQC / ML integration, I have asked Mark what capability he is missing in ML natively. He mentioned one or two things that happen to be on Cinemar's current development effort (coincidentally). Now, as a matter of example, those functions are supported today by Homeseer. Maybe Mark shouldn't have purchased CQC and ML, but should have purchased HS and ML. I wouldn't recommend that to him today, because what he seems to be looking for is close to be supported in ML natively. But, if he has a client that needs it today....buy Homeseer and meet the need. Don't worry too much about reliability with the combination because there are now a few years of experience that say "don't worry".

There may be things on Mark's list of customer needs that come up. Good odds it will be supported by either Homeseer, HAL or Mainlobby (or CQC). He has options when the products integrate together. His only option if sticking with CQC is to wait until Dean codes it.


----------



## CTay

No, you are still missing the point. Simply put, a system that attempts to incorporate ML and CQC together will probably have a bad result. That is it. Nothing more. When you try to make it into "well ML can incorporate all sorts of different software and CQC can't so you CQC guys are screwed until Dean wants to write it in" it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It is as if you can not simply engage in a discussion with out plugging the superior quality of your product over another product.


For the record, I started out reading this thread not in any camp. If anything I was leaning toward ML because I worried that CQC was a little too complex for me. However, due in some part to the information in this thread I became a CQC customer.


I do not mean to offend you, I am simply stating that IMO you need to tone your rhetoric down a couple notches. It turned me off if no one else.


----------



## smoothtlk

CTay, Again, I am not soliciting for a ML / CQC integration. But, how can you say on a technical level that "Simply put, a system that attempts to incorporate ML and CQC together will probably have a bad result."?


Just reading MarkP's very small amount of comments on how he is integrating the two products, he is not persuing it in the way for good result. No fault of his own because the software engineers and architects on both ML and CQCs side have not spent more than 5 minutes on the subject. Now, because HS and ML DID, and HAL and ML DID, user's don't have that hit and miss method. I have no doubt that it would be technically feasible and good result. But that is only the technical side which you seem to be concentrating on and I believe that would be the less challenging of the issues.


----------



## cavalier240




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CTay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I haven't jumped in much here, just watching from the sidelines but I just have to say I really don't like the way that you shamelessly pitch your product ALL THE TIME regardless of the situation.



Agreed. And the difference between that and this:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think you should pick one or the other, even if it's not ours.



was certainly a major factor in my decision.


----------



## Mark P

We are doing much less automation than say IVB, What we are doing are things most people would never do or need to do. I dont know how to explain why (at this point)we would need both without explaining the circumstances and I never wanted to bring up intentions in the first place and had kept it under wraps for months but turn your head and skip this next part if mentioning what wealthy people ( customers/endusers) are going to need.


In the Canada project the main mode of transportation is Dog Sleds and thats part of the experience. GPS tracking of the sleds is essential for the business but we thought having the capability to do so for the customer on their screen was just as important. The wife and one child stay back at the lodge but want to peek in and see the others progress stands while heading to and from town as well as around the wildlife refuge. I saw this demonstrated on CQC webex last month. As far as I know this isnt a capability of Cinemar and if it was , Im not sure anyone is doing it. A CQC user is doing it now.


I have had no trouble running Cinemar and CQC to this point except initial restart or power outtage when driver conflicts are obvious with say Insteon and its SDM which is understandable, Insteon will not be used on this scale since absolute reliability is a must and hardwiring is possible.


There are CQC users using both products together right now with good results, I would be concerned it they couldnt act independently.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavalier240* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Agreed. And the difference between that and this:
> 
> 
> was certainly a major factor in my decision.



Thats the funny thing about peoples perceptions, I have witnessed something quite different happening but understand completely, theres a fine line between salesmenship and shilling. I feel fortunate to get info from either the owner or users and would rather the majority come from the owners since they should know every aspect of their product.DIY wise I see Cinemar as a product for people that want to install it and be done and go hiking or something, it may be capable to do anything and everything but most want this and that and done.


I see CQC as something for people that like networking and automation geeking ( I know its developed for integrators but........)


I think they are nuts and bolts type of development catering more towards the person that wants to automate grocery lists.


I also think we need both in the market to drive the other and make better products of each.


If smoothtalk wasnt explaining the features of Cinemar, who would? Their users are out Hiking and biking not reading automation forums.


----------



## robertmee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since Dean seems to be squarly in the camp that he doesn't need or want or recommend any componentized solutions, then his customers will just have to wait to add VR, or other features for when Dean has the time to implement it.



I think you are reading outside the lines in an effort to support your platform. Dean's point is that as long as the major software components fall under the CQC umbrella then quality control and interoperability are assured, vs the ML paradigm of providing 3rd party pluggins of which may or may not be properly vetted or adhere to some developer standard. It's the whole 3rd party pluggin reliance that has turned me off of many products in the past. So many become unusable or unsupported over time simply because the original developer loses interest or some small tweak in the core software renders their product unusable. With CQC, Dean enforces any user provided driver (through the use of CQCs own develpment languages of CML and PDL) to adhere to a set standard and Dean can be reasonably assured that as the product moves forward, noone loses support of existing add-on drivers, macros, etc.


For you to suggest that everyone must wait on Dean for functionality is absurd. There is an IAutomate driver in progress, not by Dean. A slimserver driver in Beta, not by Dean. The Horoscope driver, not by Dean. The Insteon driver, not by Dean. The Caddx Security panel, not by Dean. A multitude of AV component drivers not by Dean.


You have a unique market niche in that many Homeseer users that have been around a long time, continue to use their Homeseer installations and by purchasing ML they can have an attractive front end finally. However, CQC is and has always been an integrator centric product that is DIY friendly. I doubt that there are many custom integrators out there installing JDS stargate panels or Homeseer for that matter, so why should CQC be interested in pursuing that customer base? If I'm wrong and Homeseer is the custom integrator's software of choice as a back end, then it's a competitor to CQC and not likely to be an integration partner. It's just a different business model and neither CQC or ML is right or wrong for pursuing it either way.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *robertmee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I doubt that there are many custom integrators out there installing JDS stargate panels or Homeseer for that matter, so why should CQC be interested in pursuing that customer base?



You doubt correct. While I am familiar with both products I don't think I've EVER seen or heard either product mentioned by or spoken of by a systems integrator. That is not to say of course that there are note 1 or 2 out there using them







.


----------



## ToyMaster458




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You doubt correct. While I am familiar with both products I don't think I've EVER seen or heard either product mentioned by or spoken of by a systems integrator. That is not to say of course that there are note 1 or 2 out there using them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



If I remember correctly when HomeSeer released their Integrator Program they had this NDA that Integrators had to sign that pretty much did not allow them to talk. I could be wrong.


----------



## cavalier240




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If smoothtalk wasnt explaining the features of Cinemar, who would?



This is a valid point. I just wish that in some posts there would be less salesmanship and more support. I have seen several legitimate questions be posted that were either flat out ignored or answered in some roundabout fluff filled way that was on a complete tangent to the issue at hand, but did manage to have a sales spin.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavalier240* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is a valid point. I just wish that in some posts there would be less salesmanship and more support. I have seen several legitimate questions be posted that were either flat out ignored or answered in some roundabout fluff filled way that was on a complete tangent to the issue at hand, but did manage to have a sales spin.



Oddly enough, I agree too ( I really do want to understand ML, this is the only way I know), but the answers need to be simple yes/no/fact-based instead of the bizarro stream of conciousness or constant sales pitches or 18 different posts each answering a different small bit of the question after which LathanM or Tharthigh get sick of the roundabout and step in to answer the question.


For example, I'm really not smarter than MarkP, unless someone spells out stuff to me I won't get it. I still don't undertstand what Smoothtlk thinks is a list of strengths & weaknesses to his product. I saw a bullet list from Dean about weaknesses, and another one about strengths. That I understand. I saw LathanM's post about weaknesses, with a SmoothTlk response to "yes, all being fixed soon". But I haven't seen a simple bullet list, so i've been trying to glean that information from the 100 posts in this thread.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MarkP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If smoothtalk wasnt explaining the features of Cinemar, who would? Their users are out Hiking and biking not reading automation forums.



I like having Vendor Reps here to explain their product, but it needs to be a simple non-salesy fact-based explanation of what it really is and what it can really do by the reasonable person.


Btw, does anyone either than me think there's massive danger to not seeing what a real customer says? After all, anything that Dean or SmoothTlk say should be taken with a grain of salt unless they can back it up with "And here's customer XXX, who's doing it now, and would be more than happy to talk to you about his path".


I used to do pre-sales roadshows for my prior employer, and it was amazing how good I could make a product look by only pushing on those sections of the program I knew worked. Having an end-user who's done it himself, or the professional CI who's done it 100x (a la ToyMaster) is the best way to keep companies honest.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ToyMaster458* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly when HomeSeer released their Integrator Program they had this NDA that Integrators had to sign that pretty much did not allow them to talk. I could be wrong.



Oh come on now







! Perhaps integrators had to sign an NDA about something (who knows what), which is not terribly uncommon, but I doubt it was "you can't tell anyone if you are using our product". Does Bill Gates also have a HomeSeer system in his house but no one knows about it because they banned him from revealing it







. Anyhow, products like HomeSeer are primarily DIY. They just aren't used much by integrators. I'm sure HomeSeer will say otherwise, but it would be bunk.


I think Dean will tell you quite honestly it has been very difficult for him to get integrators on board and that most of his business so far has been from DIY.


----------



## IVB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh come on now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ! Perhaps integrators had to sign an NDA about something (who knows what), which is not terribly uncommon, but I doubt it was "you can't tell anyone if you are using our product". Does Bill Gates also have a HomeSeer system in his house but no one knows about it because they banned him from revealing it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Actually I think it's a StarGate


----------



## QQQ

...using X-10.


----------



## robertmee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...using X-10.



Nope, it's all sprint logic. And if anyone here is old enough or been around enough to know what that is, you get an apple.


----------



## smoothtlk

cavalier240, if you have a link to a post that was "ignored" by Cinemar and was of a legitimate question that involved Cinemar and not really an attempt to sell CQC, please point that out as I must have missed that one to answer. And I mean that in good intention.



Robertmee,

There is no difference that I can see on 3rd party plugin support on how CQC does things and how MainLobby does things with the possible exception that the majority of plugins that are developed are developed by Cinemar developers and NOT 3rd parties. Most all of the core applications and plugins are owned and distributed and supported by Cinemar.


I find it interesting that CQC believes that integration of plugins with the core product using 3rd parties (that may or may not be software developers by trade) is a good thing, but not believe that integration with professionally built robust products with proven track records is "unreliable". Which is it?



That's my last post on the subject. I think I have said my fill.


----------



## Ripper99

I'm not sure if things have changed but if a person wanted to write a plugin for Cinemar when I used it they needed to sign an NDA...this was mentioned to me when I was going to have my friend develop a driver to control my equipment.


Long story short..my friend laughed at the suggestion that he might have to sign the NDA to write a driver to interface with their product even though I had all the commands..my friend politely declined having anything to do with a NDA to make a "silly control driver" as he called it and in the end I paid Cinemar way more than I should have to support the gear and write a driver.


I notice now that Cinemar *sells* or offers for sale the plugin I paid to have developed...while this is their right I find it sorta sleezy after I provided them the protocol docs and all the testing to make sure it worked and now they turn around and try to sell it.


After moving over to CQC the very same driver was written in half the time for $250 cheaper and also two free one way drivers were also thrown in by MarkS from CQC..it should be noted also this driver is now provided free and packaged with the CQC product.


**I agree Cinemar is entitled to resell drivers people pay them to create however I mentioned while it was being created that if I was paying to have it created I wanted anybody afterward to have it for free...I noticed shortly after I left the Cinemar product they began offering it for sale however its doubtful they will sell more than a few copies because the equipment is not used by many.


As for Davids advertising..this has been going on forever and its unlikely he will change until someone from AVS bans him for essentially doing what other dealers here tried doing and got the same warning and had to purchase advertising...its one thing to answer questions about your product but quite another to turn it into a sale pitch like he does by basically hijacking a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with his product and blabbing on and on trying to make a sale.


Davids annoying advertising reminds me of the guys that run up to you at BestBuy trying to make the sale or try to charm you into buying a extended warranty you'll never need.


Not a personal attack in anyway against David because I'm sure others have mentioned how annoying you are with your sales tactics...you remind me of when I visit a few countries overseas and some guy screaming "5 dolla 5 dolla 5 dolla 5 dolla" while hes trying to sell me photocopied postcards...you say politely "No thanks" and 20 minutes later the same guy comes outta nowhere while your trying to use the washroom at the same tourist attraction "5 dolla 5 dolla 5 dolla 5 dolla" and hes holding toilet paper in his hand just in case you need to dry your hands


----------



## Dean Roddey

The primary difference between something like Homeseer and CQC, wrt device support is as mentioned above. CQC provides it's own development languages, and therefore enforces a particular paradigm on device drivers. This has made it possible to bring forward basically ever driver ever written from day one to the now 2.0 version. There were a couple times where a small change was required in a couple drivers to correct a non-optimal earlier decision on our part, so as to straighten it out for future drivers, but that's it.


Homeseer, OTOH, allowed basically open ended extension of the product. This of course allow third parties to add a lot of features to the product, but look at what it cost them to move to 2.0. It was a multi-year long death march for them, and cost them a lot of user discontent and probably shaved a few years off their lives.


Also, CQC doesn't have the concept of a user written 'plugin' as I would define it. It has 'device drivers'. Sometimes a device driver might blur the line between strict device support and an extension of the system's functionality. But the stuff that would unambiguously fall into the 'plugin' category, events, web server, media system, etc... we write all those, because allowing third parties that level of control would put us into the same situation that HS got itself into.


But anyway, by having all drivers be done via our own languages, we keep strict control over them, they have to try really hard to do anything that could affect the system adversely. And, very importantly, since the drivers aren't done in the same langauge as the product itself, we don't have to expose any of our product interfaces to driver developers. This is a benefit that cannot be measured because we can change our internal code base any way we need, without affecting any third party code, since that's all done in PDL or CML. So we avoid the biggest source of accumulation of dangerous evolutionary baggage, and we don't require any type NDA because there's no aspect of the internals of the product that is exposed to a driver writer.


Clearly device support must be done by way of 'pluggable' bits of code, often written by third parties. But, beyond that, integration of as much functionality under a single umbrella will tend to create the most stable system in the end, because it's all created by the same company and tested as a whole in every new release. Going further, using as little third party code, as we do, pushes that same idea down another layer and provides for maximum control over product quality.


That doesn't mean it's impossible to do a good system with multiple products. But I think that most people who have gone that route would say that it's more work and requires the user to do more multi-party diplomacy to deal with problems that aren't clearly due to one side or another.


----------



## smoothtlk

Ripper, And now tell us that when you agreed for Cinemar to do the professional services development of a plugin that you are unaware of the ultimate ownership, resale rights, and cost. That was all disclosed to you and agreed upon before any work was commenced. What you paid does not cover the cost of development (ie: you didn't Pay for the Development). There has been one other person that has requested the Krell plugin and the develoment pricing was based on this prediction - which was also disclosed to you. It was also disclosed to you that it was more difficult to write a plugin if the hardware was not in the hands of the developer. You provided the docs...wow...how many do you want? That is about the most minor part of the work and Krell would gladly have provided it with an email like most every other hardware manufacturer that wants support of it's products in the field. We make no apologies that we are in this as a business to make profit. Based on our sales rate, there have been a few good decisions like this one.


CQC was something like $200 in 2004, $500 in 2005 / 2006 and now something like $1000 with annual support fees. See a trend? And if you are a dealer, signficantly more than that (from what we understand). Now, I am not knocking Dean for increasing the price. He deserves it. Just don't make the mistake to say that "it's all free".


Not a personal attack? yeah, right. Nice elf costume, Ripper. Oh, that one was deleted by the Mods as a personal attack...


----------



## cavalier240




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> cavalier240, if you have a link to a post that was "ignored" by Cinemar and was of a legitimate question that involved Cinemar and not really an attempt to sell CQC, please point that out as I must have missed that one to answer. And I mean that in good intention.



I appreciate your good intentions. I hate to open this can of worms again, but IMO, I felt this was one of the most legitimate issues raised in this post.


On November 20, 2006, I made the following post:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cavalier240* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would like to preface this next post by reminding people that I am just trying to gather information on the various products in an effort to keep this thread on topic.
> 
> 
> As I was searching other forums, I came across the following post. I found it troubling that the developers of MainLobby never directly responded to the allegations of copyright infringement. In terms of future product support, I think a copyright lawsuit would certainly make it difficult for the company to stay in business, and then where would that leave me?
> 
> 
> Just a thought. Once again, we've done a good job thus far of preventing this from becoming a bashing thread and purely sharing product/company information.
> 
> http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php...mainlobby&st=30



The answer was:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As Mario mentioned, we do not speak about legal issues on public forums.



I viewed that answer as side-stepping the issue because there should be nothing proprietary about this answer. When the topic was brought up again, this answer was posted on December 2, 2006.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Regarding Data - we are preparing a response that is a little more detailed than our existing response which was posted several times to the same point that was brought up (by the same person) a couple of weeks ago. that response was essentially - we don't discuss potential legal issues on public forums.



Before I purchased a product, I waited as long as I could for your response. When it never came, it sealed the deal for me to go with a different system.


----------



## smoothtlk

That is still in process. Sorry you couldn't wait.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I really don't care what the answer is, and won't respond.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That is why we (I) am not answering IVBs attempt to bash questions.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Me too LathanM. Large waste of time. Signing off.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I wouldn't chime in any more on this....





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ....but I REALLY can't spend time on this issue as we got work to do.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's my last post on the subject. I think I have said my fill.



Are you sure??? Because I think I just noticed some more posts







.


----------



## smoothtlk

QQQ, once again, you are spot on. Back to work I go, ho ho.


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That was all disclosed to you and agreed upon before any work was commenced.



Sure David 



> Quote:
> we are in this as a business to make profit.



Yes and advertising costs on AVS forums..consider purchasing some if you continue to hijack threads and make your sales pitch.



> Quote:
> Not a personal attack? yeah, right. Nice elf costume, Ripper. Oh, that one was deleted by the Mods as a personal attack...



Yawn..bow out of this thread like you mentioned you would twice now, I sincerely believe the *only* reason an AVS mod may have deleted the Elf photo(which I hadn't noticed) was because you sent a whiney private message complaining your makeup didn't look right in the photo or something stupid like that..gee it was a Christmas cheer sort of thing and I thought you might of get a laugh instead of crying about it and your comments right after I posted it didn't seem to indicate it bothered you in the least?...now your whining about it and trying to make an issue about it?


You make all sorts of subtle attacks against people and products with your comments everyday... yet when you get the same thing right back at you pull a hissy fit..I'm sure if any AVS mod has any sort of problem with my postings he will contact me and warn me which I might add hasn't been done and I do not consider posting a xmas photo a personal attack.


As mentioned I think you private messaged an AVS mod and complained your makeup wasn't flattering in the photo and you wanted it removed and he obliged, its all over now except for the whining from the cute little xmas elf...sheesh.


----------



## Mark P

hopefully they get rid of the whole mess and try again, theres about 1 page of useful info here, if that


----------



## Mark P

But I will sneak another question in and hopefully is doesnt get to complicated and answered with a simple on sentance fix.


When I install CQC, I lose remote desktop via Hamachi which I use to connect to my network when in different states ( anywhere in the world ) Lucky enough I had noticed by uninstalling CQC fixes the problem but when I was giving a demonstartion the other day I was using Mainlobby and was getting lighting status as well as pool/ spa status back as if I were on the local network, just as fast and very effective. I can even remote to the server and do anything I want to the sever as well.


If I install CQC, I can not perform these tasks and its beyond me as to why. I mean I lose remote access completely except on the local network. Im guessing setting need to be made somehow but Im not excited about programs grabbing ahold of my standby and remote access settings and changing something without informing me this is happing or happened and a quick explaination of how to fix it fast, I messed around for a couple hours and gave up. Most of my work is done while away


----------



## Ripper99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hopefully they get rid of the whole mess and try again, theres about 1 page of useful info here, if that



Ahh come on now thats not a fair assessment..plenty of info in this thread reveals alot to those considering purchasing products, no reason to sugarcoat anything imho...if your a snake in the grass or a shill you will be revealed like it or not, if a product really does stink it'll be known and if something is a great buy it will be said...nobody likes to read a forum that is edited to come across like an infomercial and if *anybody* dares come into the mix and pitch a product they can expect both positive/negative comments regardless.


You'll find on the AVS forums over the years plenty of threads that go on forever such as the Plasma vs LCD, high end cable vs lampcord, Blurray vs HD-DVD, Xbox vs PS3 or C4 vs Crestron and without these never ending threads where *everybody* can speak I think AVS wouldn't be the forum that it is.


People come here for info and its not always gonna be sugercoated to make *any* company appear to be what they are not..like it or lump it this is AVSforum and this is a public forum not a dealer forum to pitch products and expect everybody to agree in a positive light.


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> When I install CQC, I lose remote desktop via Hamachi which I use to connect to my network when in different states ( anywhere in the world ) Lucky enough I had noticed by uninstalling CQC fixes the problem but when I was giving a demonstartion the other day I was using Mainlobby and was getting lighting status as well as pool/ spa status back as if I were on the local network, just as fast and very effective. I can even remote to the server and do anything I want to the sever as well.



CQC doesn't absolutely nothing that would interfere with that, unless by some wierd chance that package happened to use a port that CQC uses. This is always a possibility because of the fairly lax way that ports are managed in TCP/IP.


Other than that, there's just no way that CQC could interfere with something like that. It does not change any system settings at all, or install any files into any system directories, install any system drivers, etc...


----------



## IVB

Man, I've been trying to take the high road, but this is yet another uncalled for swipe. If there's really an issue here, let the users mention the price increase. You focus on your products, and where your products are better than the competition on a feature perspective using facts. That's where you can add value and no one can attack you for it.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CQC was something like $200 in 2004, $500 in 2005 / 2006 and now something like $1000 with annual support fees. See a trend?



Yep. He's furiously raising the price in order to get close to what your system would be for a real automation system, not some cute 1-server system that can control 1-2 plugins in a home theater. Heck, even little Johnny down the block will be able to single-server stuff with vista, CQC does a little more than that and is priced to suit.


He's still off by 50% though - as repeatedly proven, your price for a full system is $1500 at least, but hey, at least you get Flash support for that.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CQC doesn't absolutely nothing that would interfere with that, unless by some wierd chance that package happened to use a port that CQC uses. This is always a possibility because of the fairly lax way that ports are managed in TCP/IP.
> 
> 
> Other than that, there's just no way that CQC could interfere with something like that. It does not change any system settings at all, or install any files into any system directories, install any system drivers, etc...



I know, I found it strange as well but...........I spent an afternoon trying to deal with it. Clients going into standby is not altering system files?


----------



## Dean Roddey




> Quote:
> I know, I found it strange as well but...........I spent an afternoon trying to deal with it.



Do you know what ports that product uses?



> Quote:
> Clients going into standby is not altering system files?



The system asks each service whether the machine should be able to go to sleep or not. If you stop the CQC Service (you don't have to uninstall it, just stop the service) then it won't be running, and the system won't therefore ask it anything. So on a laptop, the best thing to do is to set the service not to auto-start, i.e. it'll only start up when you ask it to. Then put simple start/stop commands into the start menu that let you easily start and stop the CQC service when you want to use it.


So it's not changing any system settings. It's just that, when CQC actually running, it's telling the system not to allow a sleep, becasue there are active components running on the machine that might cause problems in other nodes. If you shut down the service, then you cleanly remove that client form the CQC network, so it doesn't cause problems in CQC, and it allows the laptop to shut down.


----------



## Dean Roddey

BTW, one pretty good glue that they are both using a common port is to stop them both. Then start up CQC and then start up Himachi. Then do the opposite, i.e. stop them both and then start up Himachi and then CQC.


If the one that works is the one that starts first, and the one that doesn't work is always the one that is started up afterwards, then that's a pretty good clue that they are fighting for some resource and the first one up gets it and the other loses. About the only resource they could be fighting for that would interfere with network operations is an IP port.


I would have given you this advice before, but from what you'd posted on the CQC forum, I thought that it was that CQC wouldn't work when you were running the Himachi thing, and the most obvious thing to suspect was name resolution issues over the VPN type connection. But if they both interfere with each other, then it's more likely contention over a port.


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## Mark P

Dean the Hamachi IPs are 5.85.72.XX , Its strange because Hamachi and CQC should have zero to do with eachother. If I install CQC, Hamachi loads and whatnot, my clients just can not communicate anymore. Hamachi sees the other PCs on the network everything appears normal but when I use the servers Hamachi address from any other machine, I cant access if CQC is installed on the server. This is something I dont even care about Dean so dont even look into it or stress about it, if no one else is having troubles then its obviously something Im overlooking, I just find it strange its dependent on whether CQC is installed or not, I thought their ports were way up in the oddball range where nothing could touch them. Someday I may give it another shot but at the moment its not important at all. I wanted it for a couple days ago but thats done and gone so its moot, get back on UPB or whatever it is your working on.


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## Dean Roddey

CQC's ports are also up in the oddball range, as are most programs (any that aren't widely used enough to have an assigned port or port range of its own.) So it's quite possible that they are clashing. The IP address doesn't really matter. There's only a single set of ports for the whole machine. There are 64K of them, but there's not really any management of these ports, so each app just has to pick some set and hope that no one else uses them, and provide alternatives ports for selection if so. This is a major disadvantage of TCP/IP that was fine for it's original purposes, but a liability in today's world.


If one app grabs a port that the other is also set up to use, then the other will not be able to use it, and the one that cannot will have problems. CQC is normally set up to auto-start when the machine starts, so it would likely normally be the one who gets it. The fact that the apps are completey unrelated wouldn't really matter, since they are both trying to use the same resource to do those unrelated things.


----------



## bradsjm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mark P* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ... but when I use the servers Hamachi address from any other machine, I cant access if CQC is installed on the server.



While I don't doubt your symptoms it may be useful for you to know that I have Hamachi running on my CQC master server at home (5.102.47.xxx) in NYC and on my laptop here in London right now with CQC (5.102.48.xxx) and it is working perfectly. I simply placed my home machine hostname in my HOSTS file with the hamachi IP (5.102.47.xxx mediapc).

Code:


Code:


CQC Network Info Test
Copyright (c) Charmed Quark Systems

System Information
--------------------------------
      OS Version: 5.1.2, Build: 2600
       Node Name: DEV
     TCP Version: 2.2


Network Adaptor Information
--------------------------------
  {9BE1EF83-1634-4F0B-B14C-6F5A7553DE54}
  Hamachi Network Interface
    DHCP Enabled: True
    Gateway/Mask: 0.0.0.0/0.0.0.0
    Hardware Addr: 7A 79 05 66 30 64 
    Address/Mask #0: 5.102.48.XXX/255.0.0.0

  {70BBEAD2-6C56-4D08-B7AC-DCA3671B94EF}
  AMD PCNET Family PCI Ethernet Adapter - Packet Scheduler Miniport
    DHCP Enabled: True
    Gateway/Mask: 192.168.1.1/0.0.0.0
    Hardware Addr: 00 0C 29 5B 9F 0A 
    Address/Mask #0: 192.168.1.110/255.255.255.0


Environment Information
--------------------------------
      CID_NSADDR: mediapc:13502
     CQC_DATADIR: C:\\Program Files\\CQC\\CQCData


Name Resolution
--------------------------------
    Trying to resolve name: DEV...
    Resolved to: 5.102.48.XXX

    Resolving back the other way...
    Host Name: DEV


CQC Connection Tests
--------------------------------
    Trying to connect to CQC name server...
    Connected to name server successfully

    Trying to connect to log server...
    Connected to log server successfully

    Trying to connect to local config server...
    Connected to config server successfully

    Trying to connect to installation server...
    Connected installation server successfully

    Trying to connect to security server...
    Connected security server successfully

    Trying to connect to macro server...
    Connected macro server successfully


----------



## QQQ

Jonathan,


Does Hamachi work well for you? Have to ever attempted to use Hamachi to access something such as a MSDE database that one would normally use something such as Windows terminal services to access?


Thanks


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## bradsjm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does Hamachi work well for you? Have to ever attempted to use Hamachi to access something such as a MSDE database that one would normally use something such as Windows terminal services to access?



Seems to work as well as our corporate VPN does. More bandwidth, better performance







I generally do not like VPNs just because of what they do to your network configuration and anyway my cable modem uplink speed is fairly horrible so remote desktop and remotely anywhere are my tools of choice for most things such as moving files or running applications.


That said, I use the free version of Hamachi for quickly accessing files on the server (e.g. configuration files, or CQC Manifest files) which are small anyway. It is also much faster to edit CML code or use the interface designer when the application is local and just the data is being moved as it removes that "lag" feeling when typing and moving images around. I think CQC caches stuff because once I've got the interface viewer running and gone through the first screens it seems quite fast


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## Mark P

I find the Hamachi premium very fast for what it is, pretty cheap too. Theres no difficult setup either. Install and your done.


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## QQQ

Great thanks both of you, that sounds like it will work perfect for something I want to play with and will save me some time and money.


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## robertmee

Re: Hamachi


Do you still have to run a DNS applet of some sort to resolve to your router (like No-IP) or is this built into Hamachi? I've used PCAnywhere and NetMeeting for years for remote access, and have tried the various free VNC programs with not very good results. I'm on the road quite often and looking for something robust to tie back into my office PC.


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## QQQ

What is it primarily that you need to access Robert? Aps that you need to run that reside on your home PC or files?


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## Mark P

Not sure how it works, its free to try http://hamachi.cc/ Its zero configuration, name your computers, it assigns an IP like 5.85.76.83 assign a password, start it on any machine you want to use and youre done. It great for networking dummys like me.


I bought a year of the premium since I use it to use programs and work on the same things I would while home, when demonstrating Mainlobby in a different state I had my security cameras on and the people could see me operating lighting on the same screen I was using Mainlobby in ( I had pasted the cameras in the lighting scenes). I showed them turning on music and all sorts of things because my security cameras have sound. It was quite impressive to them but I had to explain the graphics werent quite done yet. Other than that it worked as good as being there, just as fast. I start Hamachi on the server, in Mainlobby I put Hamachis IP for the server in my 'connect to address' in Mainlobby and it works everytime. If I want to switch to the server I remote to the same IP and as long as I have remote access settings to have graphics minimal its very fast working in programs


The bad thing is power outtage and having to have a password to remote access a PC, Hamachi loads with Windows ( or not) and being stuck at the password screen. supposedly theres software that allows remote access without signing in, a friend sent me the link but I lost it.


Dont forget Hamachi assigns a seperate MAC address if you use MAC filtering on your router like I do.


I love the stuff and use it it frequently


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## robertmee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *QQQ* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is it primarily that you need to access Robert? Aps that you need to run that reside on your home PC or files?



Both....Often I need to grab a file or reference some docs that I have stored on my office PC/server. Other times, I need to run some software remotely (PLC and HMI development packages) or open up my outlook to find a saved e-mail.


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## smoothtlk

"Quote:

Originally Posted by IVB

I saw that, wasn't debating that bit. What I wanted to understand was whether you could create your own PPC interfaces. You didn't actually answer that question directly, so I take it the answer is "no, you cannot".


does that mean that you cannot control any hardware other than a russound on a PPC? I.E., a denon receiver, elk, etc?


Still waiting on an answer for this bit. "


Cinemar just released to public beta full HTML / Java access to MainLobby server to allow for full bidirectional capability between a lightweight device (like a PocketPC / CE devices) and the MainLobby server plugins and automation capability.

This allows you to build HTML scenes that you can access the MainLobby Russound Cav66 plugin, the Denon plugin, the ELK M1 plugin, etc. Very easy to build a page, if you ever built a webpage in Dreamweaver, etc.

A couple of starter templates were put together as example:

A display to show what TheaterTek is playing and transport controls for a browser. A mini PocketPC sized web page that allows viewing of weather data.


I believe this is the answer you were looking for, IVB. We weren't in a position to talk about it until it was ready for public consumption.


There still exists specific flash applications for accessing music, movies, Cav66, XM satellite radio stations. Now, when used in conjunction with the HTML capability, one can tremendously expand on what you can do from a thin device like a PocketPC or ELK touchscreen (CE OS), or older wireless tablets that aren't strong enough to run the full rich MainLobby 3 client application.


As the new web server built into MainLobby Server also supports HTTPS encryption, one can also access their MainLobby system from work PC (plain web browser) as well.


A user forum was created to allow for sharing of HTML / Java code to quickly expand upon the initial demos that Cinemar has developed. Other Cinemar HTML scenes will also be contributed.


This new powerful feature is provided free of charge to Mainlobby 3 customers.


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## IVB

Yep, thanks for the reply. Reading and re-reading now to make sure I actually understand what it is.


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## samgreco

David,


How does this new HTML interface affect client licenses? If I were to buy ML Server only, could I connect with as many clients as I like?


Thanks,

Sam


----------



## smoothtlk

Sam,

Currently you can have same number of web sessions as you have MainLobby client licenses. So, if you have the default 5 client licenses, you will have an additional up to 5 web sessions open at same time.


In essense, doubling the number of connections.


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## Dean Roddey

Web browser connections are stateless. They connect, get data, and disconnect. So I don't see how you could enforce the number of connections unless you are not really using a real HTTP interface. I.e. if what you've actually got is some sort of control that just runs within a browser, but actually maintains a full time connection back to the server, then you could enforce that, but that's not really a web browser interface per se, and wouldn't necessarily have some of the advantages of an HTTP interface (such as being able to get out via corporate firewalls, work over low bandwidth connections, and so forth.)


I'm not a web guru, so I may be missing something of course.


----------



## Mark P

In english please, can I turn on lighting from a web browsing phone?


----------



## Mark P

Do these 2 programs work in Windows Vista? If no, is this tested or just a guess covering rears incase it doesnt.


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## smoothtlk

MarkP, if your phone supports display of html pages (web browsing), then Yes you can turn on a MLServer supported lighting system (X10, Insteon, UPB, Vantage (Q Series and Infusion), Litetouch (System 5000), RadioRA, GrafikEye, HAI and ELK security system supported lighting (like ALC), soon CBUS, etc.).

The web page has to be coded (no drag and drop interface to build HTML like you can MainLobby flash scenes), but easily doable by anyone that is HTML (website) literate. Tons of folks fit this catagory.


If you mean "2 programs" to mean MainLobby and CQC, MainLobby has not gone thru testing for Vista yet. But, rest assured it will work with Vista when we can get to it. I wouldn't recommend Vista to be the OS today for MLServer. I suspect that the MainLobby client would work on it now, but untested.


----------



## LathanM

This is no different that how most websites work. My TeleVantage web clinet works exactly this way. The web server is just a front end interface and the back end is handled by a seperate server. The web server works as a proxy for the user connection. I run alot of sites like this out of our datacenter. The web servers just maintain the UI so it is easier to cluster the servers. This leaves all the important traffic on port 80 but still gives you full control. The user tracking is handled by the back end and is based on time.


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## Dean Roddey

CQC has not been tested on Vista yet either. Well, it's been proven not to work on Vista currently, but that was expected given the fairly radical changes in security. I just got a copy of Vista that I'm going to install on a crash test dummy machine and probably work on this over the Xmas holidays to see what the deal is. I assume it will be a number of fairly straightforward things that need to be dealt with. If so, we'll do a small patch release just to cover that so as to get it out of the way. If not, then it'll have to wait until the 2.1 release.


----------



## rjammm

l


----------



## QQQ

ll


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Web browser connections are stateless. They connect, get data, and disconnect. So I don't see how you could enforce the number of connections unless you are not really using a real HTTP interface. I.e. if what you've actually got is some sort of control that just runs within a browser, but actually maintains a full time connection back to the server, then you could enforce that, but that's not really a web browser interface per se, and wouldn't necessarily have some of the advantages of an HTTP interface (such as being able to get out via corporate firewalls, work over low bandwidth connections, and so forth.)
> 
> 
> I'm not a web guru, so I may be missing something of course.



I'm not a web guru either but as Lathan mentions it's pretty common and there is no reason it cannot be a "real HTTP interface". Go to any website where these is a list of large files to download. Start downloading one after another and you'll find that most websites limit you to no more than two concurrent downloads. You cannot start another until one of the downloads have finished. In fact, you often cannot load another page on the website if the two downloads are in progress. Without this type of capability it would be infinitely easier for a hacker to destroy a websites bandwidth by simultaneously calling up thousands of downloads.


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## Dean Roddey

That's not the same thing. That's multiple simultaneous connections from one IP address. That wouldn't apply when you are talking about limiting the number of clients that can be out there. It only limits the number of clients that could simultaneously (or close to it) access the system at once. But, generally speaking, the access pattern wouldn't be of the sort that would cause that limit to kick in. You could have 10 or 15 clients and probably not exceed a '5 simultaneous access' limit when the connection is stateless, under normal access patterns.


Not that I really care per se. I'm just being an anal retentive engineer type and debating the technicalities.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's not the same thing.



Good point







. OK, then I will change the example to a hosted solution which is 100% thin client browser based and the license is based on xx number of simultaneous users







.


----------



## Dean Roddey

This gets back to my original point that 'browser based' can mean multiple things. It might mean a control of some sort that loads into the browser that maintains a constant, non-HTTP connection back to the server. But that's not the same as a browser interface as most folks would consider it, which is HTTP based, and stateless, which means it can work via a corporate firewall and can work on very low bandwidth connections since it only talks when you load a new page.


I don't know if that's the case, but it sounded somewhat like that when he described it, which is why my original comment.


----------



## LathanM

I think you are reaching a little here with your definition. The HTTP connection is stateless but that doesn't have any effect on the login or tracking of users by the web server. This is what allows or disallows connections. This can be handled via a cookie in the browser, session timers or by time/password checking code running on the web server. In all cases the connection to the user is handled by standard http request. When you think about it it is just the standard web password/security model being applied to track connections.


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smoothtlk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> MarkP, if your phone supports display of html pages (web browsing), then Yes you can turn on a MLServer supported lighting system (X10, Insteon, UPB, Vantage (Q Series and Infusion), Litetouch (System 5000), RadioRA, GrafikEye, HAI and ELK security system supported lighting (like ALC), soon CBUS, etc.).
> 
> The web page has to be coded (no drag and drop interface to build HTML like you can MainLobby flash scenes), but easily doable by anyone that is HTML (website) literate. Tons of folks fit this category.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean "2 programs" to mean MainLobby and CQC, MainLobby has not gone thru testing for Vista yet. But, rest assured it will work with Vista when we can get to it. I wouldn't recommend Vista to be the OS today for MLServer. I suspect that the MainLobby client would work on it now, but untested.



Sounds good, so find a HTML guy that can make a web page for lighting and security cameras ( scratch security cams, already available) Is there documentation, forum reading for this somewhere.


Vista support will be nice since Im a graphics whore and from the sounds of it they have straightened out all the clunky networking and such. I dont see much need in running Vista on the HTPC/server but will run it on clients as I expect most others (friends and family) will as well. I like up-to-date software so hopefully Mailobby runs well on Vista, Im getting good feedback on Vista from my PC guru friend


Hopefully you developers wont pick and choose whats important to customers when it comes to OS's ( supposed to be smiley wink placed here but Im in edit mode)


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## Dean Roddey

In a kiosk style touch screen, the look of the OS will not come into play. The screen will be covered by the automation interface and they usually will not use any of the standard OS windows. So it wouldn't matter in those cases whether you were using XP or Vista in visual terms. Also, in any commercial application, I'd argue that it's not optimal to use the latest OS until it's been out for some time, unless there is some feature that is an absolute requirement for the application, which is not the case here. You can't even buy Vista right now except as part of an OEM system, right?


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## smoothtlk

I agree with Dean. Reason why Cinemar will be supporting Vista is because people will have PCs running Vista. Similar of MCE2005 OS. The MCE app isn't needed for Mainlobby suite, but the OS works just fine.

There may be some Vista services that end up getting used, but that's down the road.


----------



## QQQ




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can't even buy Vista right now except as part of an OEM system, right?



Vista ships to consumers January 30. It cannot be purchased right now except by corporations.


----------



## BocaPimp

If i already have a Celler Cinemas HTPC, can i add cinemar software to it?


----------



## smoothtlk

BocaPimp,

Yes, if the CellerCinemas HTPC uses standard PC technology and a Windows operating system (newer than Win98) then Cinemar software should run on it fine.

Are you interested in Theater automation as first priority? What hardware will you be wanting to control? (Receiver, projector, screen, lights, matrix switching, etc)? Are your movies stored on a changer (what model) or burned to hard drive?


----------



## BocaPimp

The movies are stores on almost 2 TB of HDs inside the Cellar System ( www.cellarcinemas.com )

and i would like to control everything, and keep a sweet looking statbase of the HD movies, not the normal windows looking thing, plus i would love to have a mini screen to carry around the theater to select from there and not always the projector. i wanna be able to control my pre amp(outlaw990,dvdo vp50,radient switcher,htpc,buttkicker am p,bdp-s1,hd xa2, and maby a couple of HD plug ins, also my lights which are IR right now, and then my BTX curtain motor)


----------



## Mark P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dean Roddey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In a kiosk style touch screen, the look of the OS will not come into play. The screen will be covered by the automation interface and they usually will not use any of the standard OS windows. So it wouldn't matter in those cases whether you were using XP or Vista in visual terms. Also, in any commercial application, I'd argue that it's not optimal to use the latest OS until it's been out for some time, unless there is some feature that is an absolute requirement for the application, which is not the case here. You can't even buy Vista right now except as part of an OEM system, right?



Dean, I think theres alot of things about Vista you may find you love as a developer as well as a security fan. Personally Im after the massive graphics upgrades with Vista that finally make Windows a Mac/Apple clone where Macs were years ahead of Windows in ease, graphics, multitasking and other areas. I had a Vista demonstration yesterday and Ill tell you that I would be overwhelmed with joy if my automation screens were within a mile of the way Vista and Macs deal with interfaces and such. Actually Vista almost looks like CQC in many respects like menues, its almost scary how close the two are but..........the way thumbnails turn into programs and the way programs open and close into others are very "flashish" and quite beautiful. I know hardly anyone here takes graphics and animations seriously but when they see Vista in action this best describes how I want an interface. Vista has weather widgets, clock widgets, movie widgets and all sorts of new features and they all come and go fluidly and gracefully the way things should in 2007. Wait until you see the Mac style roladex type multitasking screen. Its very impressive, then again most here arent into interfaces changing and moving in and out the way I am. Kudos to Microsoft for the way Vista looks and works, I guess thats the finished results of 10,000 employees and it shows.


----------



## Dean Roddey

The point we are making above is that none of that would benefit either product, since the touch screen interfaces of both don't use the standard Windows GUI. It's fine to point it out as an example of what you think is nice, and it may give us some ideas, but running either product on Vista won't make any difference in how the end touch screens look or behave. ML uses Flash and we have our own graphical interface system, so neither use the standard Windows windows.


I got my crash test dummy machine set up yesterday so that I can install Vista on it and start seeing at least what the deal is with CQC running on it.


----------



## Dean Roddey

I just got Vista installed on my old development machine. I was a little worried that it woldn't be compatible but it seems to be happy. It does look quite snazzy.


----------



## Mark P

Nice huh,I actually think alot of things are developer friendly as well. youll see as you dig deeper about what I mean on file searching, naming and other developer features. All my clients are used as PCs as much as automation touchscreens, guests in their rooms use little automation and alot of computer. My main touchscreen the last 3 months is a Panasonic toughbook, another one has been a Toshiba laptop. Some people dont have the want or desire to get touchscreens or kiosks. I completely understand the integrator stance but I think end users want or do more than installers give them credit for. Vista will be on every client I have, I also know of several others doing automation that will have Vista as well because they are Mac users that despise anything PC and its clumsy OS, Ive always been PC and never went Mac because of software support but always admired how much better the Mac platform was.


To get the full effect of what Vista graphics are capable of , you need newer hardware


----------



## Dean Roddey

Actually, I was wrong. CQC does run just fine under Vista, as far as I can tell so far. The problems that people had reported, which I'd not studied too closely, were just getting the installer to run. You have to a little tweak for now to the command file that starts the installer but it looks like that is all that's required. Everything else so far seems to be happy.


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## smoothtlk

Cinemar's MainLobby Server 3.0.210 was recently tested with Vista and so far runs fine as well.


----------

