# HDMI ARC and HDCP 2.2



## Michael McNeill

Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum, but I've been searching for the answer to this question, and I'm hoping you can help me! I just recently bought a 60" Vizio (M60-C3) 4K LED TV, and I also bought a Vizio 5.1 Channel Soundbar (S5451w-C2). I didn't realize until after I made the purchase that 4K content could be trouble for the soundbar because of HDCP 2.2. My plan is to let the TV handle all the inputs (a Roku 4, PS4, DirecTV Genie, and an 4th Gen Apple TV) and use the 5th HDMI input (marked for ARC) to pass audio through to the soundbar. I understand that with HDCP 2.2 that everything in the chain must be HDCP 2.2 or it won't output 4K content. Since I'm having the TV be the broker to the soundbar just using the Audio Return Channel, I'm hoping that doesn't break the chain required for 4K content. Can someone let me know if I'm thinking of this correctly? Thanks for your help in advance!


----------



## Ratman

I think that as long as your soundbar doesn't have a 4K display, ARC would work just fine, which is audio. 

If HDCP 2.2 were a problem for "the entire chain" you would have to question the compatibities of Roku 4, PS4, DirecTV Genie, and an 4th Gen Apple TV too.


----------



## Otto Pylot

HDCP 2.2 has a much more complicated "handshake" routine than the previous version. In order to watch copy-protected Ultra HD content--be it on a disc, a download, or via an over-the-top stream—you’ll need HDCP 2.2 compatible devices at every link in the signal chain. Because this isn’t just about media players and TVs; it applies to any component with an HDMI connection. Having a non-HDCP 2.2 sound bar or AV receiver in your home theater system will be enough to terminate the handshake. You could use an optical cable for audio from the tv to the soundbar instead of ARC. That would eliminate the HDMI component.

The tv should not be the hub of your HTS. The receiver should be. A lot of tv's will have trouble passing audio via an externally connected device, even with ARC. You'd be best to dump the soundbar and, at the very least, pickup an good entry level 5.1 HTiB to keep the cost down.

However, until everyone is on board with 4k content, which won't be for quite awhile yet, you can still enjoy your 4k tv at 1080p. HDMI 2.0, on the other hand, is required for 4k but does not guarantee HDCP 2.2 compatibility.


----------



## Ratman

That's why I can only play games on an Atari 2600.


----------



## mdram

the only true 4k device you have would be the roku 4
feel free to use the soundbar


----------



## Glenshaw

I have a question about ARC and I just thought I'd tag it onto this thread. My set has 4 HDMI ports, one of them labeled "ARC". Is this port only for audio, or can it be used just like a regular audio/video port? I don't have any audio components to which I'm connecting this.


----------



## mdram

Glenshaw said:


> I have a question about ARC and I just thought I'd tag it onto this thread. My set has 4 HDMI ports, one of them labeled "ARC". Is this port only for audio, or can it be used just like a regular audio/video port? I don't have any audio components to which I'm connecting this.


works as regular av port, but allows audio to go back to avr
(example: if you stream on a smart tv. the avr should have a setting such as 'tv audio')


----------



## Otto Pylot

^^^ yep. But keep in mind that ARC is limited to 5.1 audio just like optical. It can't send HD Audio (DTS-MS, Dolby TrueHD, etc). The only advantage of ARC is that it eliminates the optical cable. ARC is also associated with CEC (both are HDMI mediated) and there are lots of issues with CEC which can carryover to ARC.


----------



## Glenshaw

^^^Thanks guys.


----------



## kitti

Otto Pylot said:


> In order to watch copy-protected Ultra HD content--be it on a disc, a download, or via an over-the-top stream—you’ll need HDCP 2.2 compatible devices at every link in the signal chain...


True.


Otto Pylot said:


> ...Because this isn’t just about media players and TVs; it applies to any component with an HDMI connection...


Video chain? Yes.
Any component with an HDMI connection? No.


Otto Pylot said:


> ...Having a non-HDCP 2.2 sound bar or AV receiver in your home theater system will be enough to terminate the handshake...


Because the previous sentence was false, we can't sure this is true now. That was the reason for the OP, as I read it. In fact, it was my understanding that ARC wasn't ever part of the HDCP chain. By that logic, the OPs situation could work. I just don't have a old soundbar and new TV to test the theory with.


Otto Pylot said:


> ...You could use an optical cable for audio from the tv to the soundbar instead of ARC. That would eliminate the HDMI component...


A great solution.


Otto Pylot said:


> ...The tv should not be the hub of your HTS. The receiver should be...


The OP bought a Visio TV and soundbar. What do expect? A receiver and 6 passive speakers is unrealistic for many.


Otto Pylot said:


> ...A lot of tv's will have trouble passing audio via an externally connected device, even with ARC...


Since when? Sure, ARC can be problematic, but I think TVs can, by and large, pass audio to externally connected optical devices very reliably. It is typically only 2ch PCM or DD 5.1, sure. But soundbars don't need more than that.


Otto Pylot said:


> ...However, until everyone is on board with 4k content, which won't be for quite awhile yet, you can still enjoy your 4k tv at 1080p...


You can enjoy your 4k content today on smart TV apps, Roku 4, Amazon Fire TV, YouTube, Netflix, Amazon, Vudu, Sony Media Player/Video Unlimited, Gaming and HTPCs, and more. No need to wait until "everyone is on board," and no need to watch _disgustingly low-res 1080p_ 


Otto Pylot said:


> ...HDMI 2.0, on the other hand, is required for 4k...


No. We've had 4k for over half a decade. It has been supported since HDMI 1.4.


Otto Pylot said:


> ...HDMI 2.0, on the other hand...does not guarantee HDCP 2.2 compatibility.


True.


----------



## Otto Pylot

I admit some of my comments were a bit vague and unclear so thank you for pointing them out and clarifying a bit. That's what I get for trying to respond responsibly while doing three other things at the same time.


----------



## Ratman

No problem IMHO. For the years of help you've provided to others (me included), you're absolved of your sins. Go and sin no more.


----------



## Otto Pylot

Ratman said:


> No problem IMHO. For the years of help you've provided to others (me included), you're absolved of your sins. Go and sin no more.


But sinning is so much fun!


----------



## doublea71

New member with a related question. 

I have:

Sony W800C HDTV
Sony HT-CT380 Soundbar

I stream movies and TV shows from my laptop via the Plex app/wifi. 

The TV and soundbar both have HDMI ARC inputs, and regular HDMI inputs. I want to take advantage of the Dolby TrueHD in the soundbar, but neither the optical cable (which I currently use) or the HDMI ARC inputs support this feature.

I've tried to use the regular HDMI inputs to no avail. I'm pretty sure I hooked it up correctly - I got no sound when I did this. I stopped in at a Sony store (I'm in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam), and the staff told me that I can't use the regular HDMI inputs with my soundbar for sound. Is this correct or is the staff misinformed? If so, it seems like it is almost impossible to take advantage of a key selling point. 

Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## Otto Pylot

HDMI carries both audio and video. An optical cable only carries audio. 

Optical cables are limited to discrete 5.1 audio only. HDMI can carry HD Audio (DTS-MA, Dolby TrueHD, etc) if the HDMI chain is source to receiver (blu-ray player to receiver for example), in one direction. If you use ARC, which is bi-directional audio, you can not send HD Audio. The only advantage of ARC is the elimination of an optical cable.

For ARC to work, both devices have to be ARC capable. In other words the soundbar as well as the HDMI connected device both have to be ARC capable and have ARC enabled. If you disable ARC, you can still use the ARC labeled HDMI input as a "regular" uni-directional HDMI connection and transmit both audio and video.


----------



## Joe Fernand

_'I want to take advantage of the Dolby TrueHD in the soundbar' _- no matter what cable you use, badges/features are on the kit you cannot achieve 'TrueHD' using a budget 2.1 channel wireless Soundbar.

Ideally you would connect the Laptop HDMI to an Input on the Soundbar and then the Soundbar HDMI Output to the ARC enabled HDMI Input on the TV.

ARC is used to transfer the TV audio back to the Soundbar.

Joe


----------



## 6volt

Reading this thread and others trying to figure out my options too. While not a Soundbar, for me it's an AVR

My 4k TV has (2) HDMI 2.0's, and (2) HDMI 1.4's, one with ARC, the other with MHL but it DOES have Optical.

I don't know if there is any point to having the latest surrounds like TrueHD when all I have is a 5.1 speaker system. (Sometimes AVR conversions can work quite well, but I have no idea if this is the case.)

Since I am a big OTA user, audio from the TV is a must. Obviously there is Optical. But from what I've read here, there is no point to using ARC since it offers nothing over Optical. (And that would explain why the ARC HDMI is only 1.4.)
But there is something more perplexing about this: If I use OTA, and want to use HDMI, I would have to use ARC between the AVR and TV. But that would be a 1.4 HDMI. I would not be able to use 2.0 HDMI. Have I gotten that right and if so, what at the implications of that?​I'm running all my inputs straight to the TV. They are a BD player and eventually my HTPC. The digital audio outputs from these inputs and my TV go to a H-K AVR 430 which is a pre-HDMI AVR.

QUESTION: With a 5.1 speaker system, is this really about the best I can do for surround?

If I want TrueHD, I'll have to get a 4k HDCP 2.2 AVR and run the BD player through it - I doubt if the HTPC will ever produce even a 5.1DD. 

Of course this begs the question, do I really need a 4k AVR just to get TrueHD? I've read discussion of how the BD player can do the decoding, but my Sony BDP-S3100 which has TrueHD, only has a COAX audio output. I would think a BD player w/decoder would have discrete channel outputs (which I could connect to my H-K AVR) otherwise how would you connect a "decoded" surround?

I think I understand the situation (plight might be more like it) - have I got it right or have I missed a point or two?

Thanks
Tom


----------



## Otto Pylot

To my ears, a well made blu-ray with lossless audio (Dolby TrueHD, MTS-DA, etc) is a little bit better with a more defined sound with my 5.1 speaker setup. I don't have the best hearing in the world anymore so YMMV.

As has been stated, the only advantage of ARC is the loss of an optical cable, which for some, is one less cable to deal with and is worth it.

4k, HDCP 2.2 doesn't really have anything to do with lossless audio. You can enjoy lossless audio now with HDMI 1.4. The better your speakers are the more noticeable it can be.

We are OTA viewers only (no cable or sat) and use optical for discrete 5.1 audio from the ATSC tuner when the program presents it. Sounds great and is very clear and defined.

The receiver is the hub of our HTS (not the tv) as it should be so everything connects to it first (with the exception of the antenna coax which connects to the ANT/COAX input on the back of the tv). The receiver decodes whatever audio format is presented to it and plays it back as originally encoded, whether it be stereo, 5.1, or lossless (HD Audio). The video is just passed to the tv. I haven't bothered to jump to 4k yet because formats and protocols are just starting to settle down so I'll upgrade the tv and audio system when the time is right for us.

HDCP 2.2 is for copy protected blu-ray movies and UHD when they become available.

I don't think ARC as we know it now will ever have the bandwidth to pass lossless audio so I would invest in a nice receiver and speakers, use that as the hub of your HTS, and enjoy HD Audio as well as discrete 5.1 for whatever source is presented to it. Some tv's do passthru 5.1 audio from an external source but whether that works with an optical cable or ARC is still a question for some. I would think that there would be no problem with an optical connection to pass an external (HDMI) audio source but using ARC may not work as you want.

So, to answer you question, you do not need a 4k capable receiver to listen to HD Audio. 4k is a video format, not an audio format. But yes, you will need to connect your blu-ray player to the receiver first so it can decode the audio format and just pass the video to the tv. If you want to pass UHD blu-rays, when they become available, then the receiver will need to be 4k capable with HDCP 2.2. A 4k tv can upscale 1080p blu-ray to 4k and look quite nice so you could get by with a non-4k/non-HDCP 2.2 receiver for now if you choose. The audio format will not change for the forseeable future.

I have bookshelf-sized speakers for our HTS (WAF nixed floor standing, for now) so they are decent but I could do much better. That being said, discrete 5.1/HD Audio sounds great. A 7.1 speaker system could give a little more definition but there isn't any space behind the couch for the two rear speakers so 5.1 is it for us. I don't feel that we are losing anything as far as immersive sound with 5.1 speakers whether the sound track is 4 speaker stereo, discrete 5.1, or HD Audio.


----------



## 6volt

I would not assume upscaling to 4k w/o HDCP 2.2 - I don't remember the specifics, but there were issues upscaling DVD to 1080.

It seems like a waste to run video through an AVR just to get the HD surround - the best connection is direct to TV as far as video goes.

I guess the Big Question is are the BD players that have HD decoding?


----------



## mdram

6volt said:


> I would not assume upscaling to 4k w/o HDCP 2.2 - I don't remember the specifics, but there were issues upscaling DVD to 1080.
> 
> It seems like a waste to run video through an AVR just to get the HD surround - the best connection is direct to TV as far as video goes.
> 
> I guess the Big Question is are the BD players that have HD decoding?


get a bd with dual hdmi
problme solved


----------



## Otto Pylot

6volt said:


> It seems like a waste to run video through an AVR just to get the HD surround - the best connection is direct to TV as far as video goes.
> 
> I guess the Big Question is are the BD players that have HD decoding?


No, you are wrong. There is no difference in pq in running video via HDMI directly to the tv from the source or thru a receiver. If you want to do that then as suggested get a blu-ray player with dual HDMI out but it's unnecessary and an extra set of cables to deal with. 

All blu-ray players today (whether they be HDMI 1.4 or 2.0, with or without HDCP 2.2) will decode HD Audio.

You will not get HD Audio via HDMI if you run a single HDMI cable directly to the tv. The tv cannot decode the lossless audio format and pass it via ARC to the receiver. You're making this too complicated.

Oh, and you don't need HDCP 2.2 to upscale to 4k. HDCP 2.2 is to prevent you from recording a native 4k format.


----------



## 6volt

My BD player is a year old and will pass TrueHD but only has HDMI and Coax outputs - no RCA phono plugs for the 5+1 discrete channels.

*But regarding ARC and Optical: So you have a HDTV with Netflix apps which are as good as Dolby Digital Plus and what.... there is no way to get that sound out of your TV?*

Frankly, that one is Hilarious!

That is about as bad as the Trinitron tubes that didn't have enough lines to do 1080 and yet they were HDTV's.

Where is the FCC and FTC when you need them? The FCC laid out in detail the whole spec for HDTV including D-VHS. Then the standards exploded chaotically like a cancer.


----------



## Otto Pylot

Your BD player passes lossless (HD Audio) to what? The tv? My 4 year old Panasonic blu-ray player can decode and play back all lossless audio formats (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc) and it sounds great in 5.1. Nothing is passed to or thru the tv other than video.

If your tv has SmartApps, you can send 5.1 to your receiver either with ARC or optical. I prefer optical so I don't have to deal with the oddities of ARC/CEC.

TV's now-a-days are really meant to be display devices only, with all of the heavy lifting (audio decoding, device switching, etc) performed by the hub or your HTS, which is the receiver.


----------



## 6volt

Your BD player passes lossless (HD Audio) to what?
AVR via COAX (and I realize that is not lossless but that is all I have)​The tv?
No​My 4 year old Panasonic blu-ray player can decode and play back all lossless audio formats (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc) and it sounds great in 5.1. Nothing is passed to or thru the tv other than video.

If your tv has SmartApps, you can send 5.1 to your receiver either with ARC or optical. I prefer optical so I don't have to deal with the oddities of ARC/CEC.
5.1 does indeed pass properly over the Optical to the AVR, however anything less than 5.1, like stereo, has LOOM (Left Only Over Modulated) - and that is through the Optical. In fact, if I set Optical to PCM, _everything is LOOM (!) 

_NOTE: I do not know if LOOM is present on the ARC too. I don't see any point getting a new AVR just to run ARC. Although if ARC did behave properly, I probably would pick up a used AVR.​_ 
But,_ Netflix is moving Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) which is beyond Optical and ARC bandwidth. So how in the world is surround from TV Apps supposed to be obtained?​TV's now-a-days are really meant to be display devices only, with all of the heavy lifting (audio decoding, device switching, etc) performed by the hub or your HTS, which is the receiver.
I would disagree regarding OTA where the tuner is in the TV. It is essential that the Optical works properly. And in this case, yes it does. When set to RAW, it processes OTA 5.1 and Stereo correctly. Again, if set to PCM, OTA is all LOOM.​


----------



## Otto Pylot

Any program that is encoded in discrete 5.1 from my built-in ATSC tuner plays just fine. My tv is dumb (and I bought it specifically for that reason) so streaming is done either the AppleTV or the blu-ray player. My receiver is set to take whatever audio format it receives and play it back as natively as possible. TV's are just not designed to do that. If your tv is going to be the hub of your HTS with all of your devices connected to it then you are just going to have to make compromises. That is also a limitation of HDMI ARC, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. HDMI sucks but that's what we have to deal with currently.

I have never been a fan of SmartTV's but that's pretty much all you can get now because the tv industry says you must have one. Too many issues as far as I cans see with automatic updates, phoning home, and apps with limited functionality. Others love it and it works well for them, and that's fine. I don't, and am very happy with my alternatives.


----------



## 6volt

For years, I've used my AVR simply as an audio device. 

When there was no HD, I used a JVC JX-S900 S-video matrix switcher to handle all my devices. The JVC made the best AVR's look pathetic.

When I got D-VHS, JVC made a firewire switcher which was a poorly conceived and basically useless device.

But the audio end of it with DVD players did just fine with everything going to the AVR. (The JVC was a _single input_ to the AVR and yet I had 7 devices attached to the JVC. No AVR could do that.)

So I was thinking with TV's w/4 HDMI inputs, that should be overkill for handling 4 video devices plus OTA.

That would leave the AVR to handle the audio.

Imagine how simple it would have been if I could have run HDMI to the TV from all my devices and then a single Optical to the AVR from the TV and be done with it. (That does actually work on this TV, its just that the Optical is LOOM.)

But even if I stay with using the TV for video switching, I can still run the individual audio outputs to the AVR.

The TV is the video hub and the AVR is the audio hub.

Since this TV does OTA correctly, then I can still do this. 

It's just that I use my BD player for Netflix 99.999% of the time and it would have been SO CONVENIENT to have the TV do the Netflix. If that would have worked, the only real use for the BD would be Crackle which the TV doesn't have. But since I'm also using a HTPC, I could do Crackle via it.

Regarding LOOM:

1) it is possible the ARC is OK, and
2) another AVR may for some reason handle the Optical w/o LOOM.

Who knows.


----------



## Otto Pylot

You are free to setup your system however you see fit. There are no rights or wrongs. However, to keep it simple and trouble-free, most prefer to use the receiver as the hub and just pass the video to the display (which is basically what it's for). There is no loss of video fidelity in doing so and most receivers are designed to do just that. LOOM is a term that I have not heard of before so I can't really comment on that. Google is not very helpful so I don't how "legit" or real the term is.


----------



## mdram

never heard of loom, got a link to a techinical artical


----------



## Otto Pylot

He defined LOOM as Left Only Over Modulated, but I haven't been able to find anything technical.


----------



## mdram

Otto Pylot said:


> He defined LOOM as Left Only Over Modulated, but I haven't been able to find anything technical.


my google fu failed me also

which is why i asked


----------



## 6volt

My Bad! Yeah, I made up LOOM as a local anachronism.

But get this (my head is going to explode), another fellow with the same TV as me had success with the TV app Pandora.

So I went there and had to register the TV on Pandora's web site.

So guess what happens next?

EVERYTHING WORKS JUST FINE!

Netflix Stereo does not have LOOM and changing between RAW and PCM behaves just like it should.

The guy with the same set saw something similar when he registered his TV with his youtube account.

Go figure.

The Chaos in modern tech is pretty damn magnificent, huh? I'm 62 and get very frustrated when highly skilled engineers and car people in their 70's simply cannot navigate Windows on a PC. It's like Cut & Paste, Drag & Drop is beyond their ability to comprehend. Perhaps, I'm showing a similar "pudding my head" with regard to getting all this stuff to work. But then, no one chimed in and said, "It's really simple - this is all you have to do..." So I guess I take that back - I'm still a pretty smart guy - hahahahaaaa

I really feel bad about taking that set back - but who knows, maybe there was something wrong with it because I sure can't explain what just happened here.


----------



## Ratman

6volt said:


> The Chaos in modern tech is pretty damn magnificent, huh?


Yeah. But it's not all "doom and loom" as some imagine.


----------



## Otto Pylot

^^^  One doesn't have to be old to have trouble with Windblows, but that's another issue entirely. I'm old too but don't seem to have trouble with the "doom and loom" technologies. I find the challenge stimulating. If I get stuck, I just have a nice tumbler of a 15-year old Scotch and think on it for awhile


----------



## Ratman

Otto Pylot said:


> If I get stuck, I just have a nice tumbler of a 15-year old Scotch and think on it for awhile


I crack a beer and ask my 7 year old grandson for help. :grin:


----------



## Otto Pylot

^^^^ that is so sad but so very true  I find that consulting with my kids is usually my last option, and the one that works.


----------



## 6volt

Just thought of a Fly in the Ointment regarding using the AVR as the hub.

That would imply to not use the TV apps - use the BD apps for lossless surround extraction.

However, while my Sony BD player is absolutely perfect without issue, _it does not have the Netflix 4k category I'm paying for - only the TV Netflix app has that.

_When will BD players "see" the Netflix app 4k content? I don't know. Mine is only 1 year old.


----------



## Otto Pylot

You need to remember that 4k is a video format. It has nothing to do, generally speaking, with the audio formats. 4k streaming will in all likelyhood still only have 5.1 audio or expanded 5.1 audio because of the bandwidth needed. Eventually you will be able to stream HD Audio (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc) but not now. Don't confuse 4k video with HD Audio. 4k video does not mean you will have an HD audio soundtrack. 

As we have stated before, the receiver should be the hub of your HTS. There is nothing wrong with streaming 4k video with a 5.1 audio track. Just use ARC if it works well or, better yet, just use an optical cable from the tv to the receiver when streaming your video, 4k or otherwise. Use your BD player for blu-ray movies with lossless audio (if you can really tell the difference).

There is no fly in the ointment


----------



## 6volt

It is obvious 4k is a video format, but HD TV was accompanied by improved surround tech. "4k systems" will be accommodated by even more advanced surround systems. 4k and 5.1DD will be what you get on _HSN._
_______________________________

The market dictates the tech. Tablets were the rage and people dumped their laptops, but soon they discovered that the tablet really offered only a niche advantage: they were basically a big smart phone with none of the features of a laptop - sort of a Lose Lose situation. So the market has re-embraced the laptop and abandoned the tablet. So we're back to smart phones and laptops. 

Maybe 10 years ago the AVR was the hub of the system. But the market has abandoned the AVR and even "speakers" for the SoundBar. 

And the DVD and BD are already basically dead too as is any kind of HDTV recorder like D-VHS and BD - the market streams and DVR's.

And when you really get to it, the TV STB is on its way out too - the only connection will be the TV to the internet and OTA - and no other devices.

People that want uber loss surround will devolve into a niche of specialty products.


----------



## Otto Pylot

You can want what you want but you're not going to get it if you think televisions will evolve anytime soon into one "box" that has has all of the latest video technology as well as the latest audio technology. If that does come to pass it will be a very long time from now and be expensive (as all new technologies are).

The receiver as the hub of the HTS will never go away. Just take a look at the Home Theater build forum. If you purchased a 4k tv (I don't think you ever mentioned the model) thinking it will be a one device purchase for all of your viewing and listening needs then you didn't do your homework. A lot of early adopters discovered that when they purchased their 4k/UHD tv's not realizing that to use them to their fullest capabilities they would also have to upgrade their peripheral devices for HDMI 2.0a/HDCP 2.2. Just look at the problems people are having when they want to push 18Gbps over a passive high speed HDMI cable. The technology is there but the connectivity isn't, not yet.


----------



## Ratman

Otto Pylot said:


> You can want what you want but you're not going to get it if you think televisions will evolve anytime soon into one "box" that has has all of the latest video technology as well as the latest audio technology. If that does come to pass it will be a very long time from now and be expensive (as all new technologies are)..


You get an "Amen".


----------



## 6volt

The TV's and the market place have already evolved into what I'm saying. 

People buy a HDTV, soundbar, and _maybe _an internet connection and then are done with it. Some people just plug the BD player into their HDTV and that is all folks - they use the TV speakers. And these people that establish this marketplace would _never_ show up on this forum - everyone here is nothing more than a niche of hobbyists, audio and vidiophiles.​This lossless uber sound future you are alluding to is like the hopes and failure of the DACD to the... MP3... yes, the crappy sound of MP3.

The Soundbar is the "MP3" of HDTV.​


----------



## Otto Pylot

Ratman said:


> You get an "Amen".


Thanks. We'll see what the response is.


----------



## Ratman

6volt said:


> Some people just plug the BD player into their HDTV and that is all folks - they use the TV speakers. And these people that establish this marketplace would _never_ show up on this forum - everyone here is nothing more than a niche of hobbyists, audio and vidiophiles.


Uh... that's an incorrect _assumption_ sport. Wow! 

EDIT:
And there are soundbars that sound very good.
And MP3 can sound good also.
It depends on the individual's needs and desires.


----------



## 6volt

Yes, what I'm saying sounds outrageous, but you have to remember if you are on this web site, you are not in the majority - the majority is quite pathetic and yet, they shape the mass market. (I'll throw you the "mass" market but beware that new product development is fueled by that market.)

Soundbar: Why would anyone ever develop this tech if everyone was running AVR's? In fact the market "situation" is even worse than you suggest: people are using their TV speakers over AVR's.
The more stunningly beautiful the room, the less people want speaker boxes hanging all over the place
A HDTV is just a TV - the idea of adding speakers does not occur
A young male cousin, in college, was looking to buy a HDTV, was completely unaware of 4k. So I sold him of the tech and falling prices and he will definitely get one now. I doubt he would have any clue about an AVR, but I'll bet he'd want to connect his smart phone.
All the people I know don't use AVR's:

The only person I know running an AVR (other than me) is using it so he can power his Bose 901 speakers _without the equalizer since his AVR has no "tape loop" on it. 
_
I know a bunch of kids that connect their XBox and PS directly to the HDTV - none use an AVR.
I know three other families that use the HDTV speakers.
And I know 2 families that still run a NTSC tube through a cable box. One lady passed away and had over 1500 VHS tapes of old movies.
Every single one of these families I know were completely oblivious to 4k technology and they all shop at Sam's Club.
And at first, many of them complained about not being able to use their VHS VCR but as soon as they discovered their cable box DVR, they were happy as clams.
I just checked my Owners Manual for the Hisense TV and it shows the TV exclusively as the hub. There are no connection diagrams or mention of an AVR's.All video sources connect directly to the TV.

For "How to Connect Speakers" is one of three ways:

Directly to headphone jack
Optical to an_ Audio Receiver_
ARC to a SoundBar
There is not one mention of a AVR in any capacity.
​


----------



## Ratman

6volt said:


> Yes, what I'm saying sounds outrageous, but you have to remember if you are on this web site, you are not in the majority


Perhaps... but just your assumption. Folks come here for help, opinions and suggestions.



> ... the majority is quite pathetic


IMO, that's rude. 



> ...and yet, they shape the mass market. (I'll throw you the "mass" market but beware that new product development is fueled by that market.)


No... that's your opinion. The market is shaped by consumer's purchasing power and the manufacturer's intent to sell a product. It's business. 



> Soundbar: Why would anyone ever develop this tech if everyone was running AVR's?


Who said everyone is using a AVR? That's no different than saying everyone uses only TV speakers.



> In fact the market "situation" is even worse than you suggest: people are using their TV speakers over AVR's.


No..... some individuals may use TV speakers most times, AVR's sometimes. Again... your assumption.



> The more stunningly beautiful the room, the less people want speaker boxes hanging all over the place


Therefore, soundbars. 



> A HDTV is just a TV - the idea of adding speakers does not occur


 Personal choice.



> A young male cousin, in college, was looking to buy a HDTV, was completely unaware of 4k. So I sold him of the tech and falling prices and he will definitely get one now.


Now all he needs is content. 



> I doubt he would have any clue about an AVR, but I'll bet he'd want to connect his smart phone.


Personal choice.




> The only person I know running an AVR (other than me) is using it so he can power his Bose 901 speakers without the equalizer since his AVR has no "tape loop" on it.


Provide direction to your friend and suggest he get a new(er) AVR.



> I know a bunch of kids that connect their XBox and PS directly to the HDTV - none use an AVR.


Personal choice or lack of money. So what? They're kids and probably happy.



> I know three other families that use the HDTV speakers.


I know more than that that. 



> And I know 2 families that still run a NTSC tube through a cable box. One lady passed away and had over 1500 VHS tapes of old movies.


So what? Personal choice.



> Every single one of these families I know were completely oblivious to 4k technology and they all shop at Sam's Club.


Why _would_ they care about 4K? I don't care about 4K either. 



> And at first, many of them complained about not being able to use their VHS VCR but as soon as they discovered their cable box DVR, they were happy as clams.


Discovered? Some folks don't want to pay or afford a monthly DVR rental fee (extra clams  ).




> I just checked my Owners Manual for the Hisense TV and it shows the TV exclusively as the hub. There are no connection diagrams or mention of an AVR's.
> All video sources connect directly to the TV.
> 
> For "How to Connect Speakers" is one of three ways:
> 
> 
> Directly to headphone jack
> Optical to an_ Audio Receiver_
> ARC to a SoundBar
> There is not one mention of a AVR in any capacity.​



​ Hisense? Now there's a quality product you can trust! 

Phew!


----------



## 6volt

You need to read previous threads. My comments are actual facts that support my objection to the people that say I must has an AVR as the hub for all my video devices because "that is the way it's supposed to be done."

Market says no to that,
Sales people say no to that,
Everyone I know says no to that.
I say no to that.

The argument that an AVR should be used is bogus.


----------



## Otto Pylot

Ratman - I'm glad you had the energy for that  He's posted in another thread about Hisense issues. I think he's upset because one, he purchased a budget tv (Hisense) and two, he didn't quite understand HDTV's in today's market. I'm not a fan of Vizio by any means but personally I'd have purchased a comparable Vizio over the Hisense any day. At least with Vizio if something goes wrong or is defective they usually replace it with a new tv.

No one is saying that you have to have an AVR as the hub of your system. However, to get the most out of your HTS, an AVR is necessary because they don't make tv's, and probably never will, that have the audio circuitry necessary to properly decode all of the audio formats currently available. Most people who come here are looking for answers because they want the best possible a/v performance and are asking for suggestions and help. The general population probably doesn't care, nor can even tell the difference, between DD+, DTS-MA, or 5-channel stereo and are perfectly happy with using the tv's speakers. Sheesh!


----------



## Otto Pylot

6volt said:


> I just checked my Owners Manual for the Hisense TV and it shows the TV exclusively as the hub. There are no connection diagrams or mention of an AVR's.All video sources connect directly to the TV.
> 
> For "How to Connect Speakers" is one of three ways:
> 
> Directly to headphone jack
> Optical to an_ Audio Receiver_
> ARC to a SoundBar
> There is not one mention of a AVR in any capacity.
> ​


_Optical to an Audio Receiver - _That's the same thing as an AVR (Audio Visual receiver)! You can add one that is audio only or one that can also handle video formats  It's apparent that you don't understand modern terminology.


----------



## 6volt

An audio receiver is not the same thing, it has no video connections. 

This means the TV is the video hub.

Maybe the pro-AVR group is "not up to speed" because they're not using Smart TV's. 

The Smart TV is essentially the one universal box that does it all. BD is being dropped for Streaming so everything you could "possibly want" is in the TV itself. Provide an internet connection and you have it all.

AND they even throw the OTA folks a bone too by providing an ATSC tuner!


----------



## Ratman

Otto Pylot said:


> He's posted in another thread about Hisense issues. I think he's upset because one, he purchased a budget tv (Hisense) and two, he didn't quite understand HDTV's in today's market.


Yes... I've browsed through that thread. Assumptions can be dangerous to consumers.



> I'm not a fan of Vizio by any means but personally I'd have purchased a comparable Vizio over the Hisense any day.


I guess that's a choice between shopping at Sam's Club or BJ's.  



> No one is saying that you have to have an AVR as the hub of your system.


Nor a soundbar. OTOH... 6Volt (or anyone) should understand that if they want take advantage of "high resolution" audio formats and assuming a TV can be a "hub" for A/V switching...... it ain't here today and possibly will never happen.



Otto Pylot said:


> _Optical to an Audio Receiver - _That's the same thing as an AVR (Audio Visual receiver)! You can add one that is audio only or one that can also handle video formats  It's apparent that you don't understand modern terminology.


Or capabilities and/or restrictions. 

And you now get a "hallelujah"!


----------



## Ratman

6volt said:


> The Smart TV is essentially the one universal box that does it all.


There are those _assumptions_ again. 

"Smart TV's" are marketed by smart manufacturers to not so smart consumers.


----------



## Otto Pylot

6volt said:


> An audio receiver is not the same thing, it has no video connections.
> 
> This means the TV is the video hub.
> 
> Maybe the pro-AVR group is "not up to speed" because they're not using Smart TV's.
> 
> The Smart TV is essentially the one universal box that does it all. BD is being dropped for Streaming so everything you could "possibly want" is in the TV itself. Provide an internet connection and you have it all.
> 
> AND they even throw the OTA folks a bone too by providing an ATSC tuner!


You didn't read my post. I said a receiver can be either audio, video, or both. So your manual clearly says using a receiver (your choice of which one) is one of the three audio connection methods.

Yes, the panel is the video hub. No one said it wasn't. But your complaint is audio, not video. A lot of AVR's can also upscale to 4k but most prefer to let the tv do the upscaling because it is more efficient.

You, like a lot of folks, have bought into the whole SmartTV marketing. SmartTV's are a good thing, especially if one wants that nice, sleek, uncluttered look. And a lot of high end tv's have very good SmartTV features and capabilities. But audio is not one of them. At best, you're going to get DD+, either optical or ARC.

SmartTV's are sold as the universal box for those who don't know any better. A lot of folks would much rather use an external device for streaming like and AppleTV, Roku, Chromcast, HTPC what ever. And run all of that thru an AVR to hide the cables etc and have just one, possible two cables going to the tv. Gamers may want to use the PC input of the tv for games but we'll restrict the conversation to just tv and movies for simplicity. BD players may be dropped for streaming (even tho the high end models still seem to have those capabilities) but the other mentioned external devices will be around for a very long time. They are just better than most SmartApps.

What you want is a "SmartTV" that has full audio capabilities with a built-in amplifier so all you need to do is connect a 5.1 (or 7.1) speaker set directly to your tv and listen to any audio format that is being presented (not even considering bandwidth restrictions), or use your tv as the switching device. You put all your eggs in one basket and what happens if that basket breaks?

Television for us is OTA only. I don't have cable or sat nor do I want/need it. We get perfect OTA tv here regardless of environmental conditions and enjoy crystal clear, discrete 5.1 when presented. ATSC tuners are required to be part of the tv if the panel is to be sold as a television. The ATSC standard is 8-VSB of which Dolby Digital (AC-3) is part of that standard.

I would suggest you either get a soundbar or receiver (either one) as _per the instruction manual _and run your BD palyer thru it for HD audio or just deal with the internal speakers and quit complaining.


----------



## Ratman

Otto Pylot said:


> What you want is a "SmartTV" that has full audio capabilities with a built-in amplifier so all you need to do is connect a 5.1 (or 7.1) speaker set directly to your tv and listen to any audio format that is being presented (not even considering bandwidth restrictions), or use your tv as the switching device.


How long before Smart TV's will have Atmos capability? :grin:


----------



## Otto Pylot

Ratman said:


> How long before Smart TV's will have Atmos capability? :grin:


I suppose they could design a panel with slots in the top of the bezel for ultra-small speakers for Atmos. Maybe someday when they can design circuit boards and amplifies small enough to fit in a 1/2" bezel we'll get that truly SmartTV, all-in-one tv that so many people apparently want .


----------



## 6volt

Otto Pylot said:


> I would suggest you either get a soundbar or receiver (either one) as _per the instruction manual _and run your BD palyer thru it for HD audio or just deal with the internal speakers and quit complaining.


Man, you totally missed my point. My mention of the owner's manual covering sound connections to an _audio_ receiver was to emphasize the point that AVR's are not the Rule anymore. Not only do people just throw on a soundbar, _but they use the TV as a hub _eliminating the need for an audio _video_ receiver. 

I would never use a Soundbar because they can't play loud and have limited imaging. I have 2 high end audio front speaker, no center, 2 semi-crappy surrounds, and a couple subs running through a H-K pre-HDMI AVR430 via Optical. 

If you want Netflix, it's an internet streaming app. Streaming 4k 5.1 from the Netflix app on my 4k TV is simple and should be the way to do it. With streaming, the Smart TV is a brilliant combination.

The effort to get the higher bandwidth DD+ through external app boxes and AVR's is significant and may be in vain if Netflix is providing a reduced bandwidth DD+ - just like they're doing with 4k content.​


----------



## jotavip

Hi 

I have a question that is bothering me very much. My Home Theater is a Onkyo HT-3700 that I bought last year, and today I discovered that it doesn't have HDCP 2.2. 

I am planning to buy a 4k TV Samsung UN49KS7000, and I want to know if I connect the HDMI ARC port or the optical port of this TV to my receiver and run the Netflix app to stream 4K content, I will have any issues with the audio? I am really concerned because of this HDCP 2.2 thing. 

I plan to buy a Xbox One S, and for example, if I connect it directly to the TV, and use it to watch a 4K Bluray, I will have issues with the audio through the receiver? 

Thanks in advance for the help


----------



## mdram

arc does not work for everyone all the time
i have had good luck with it, but many just use the optical


----------



## Joe Fernand

ARC - delivers audio from the TV to the AVR.

ARC - can support up to 5.1 DD/DTS, though not the lossless HD variants.

ARC - is often limited to 2.0 when you are passing an external source via HDMI through a TV. Check the TV user guide.

UHD 4K - you will likely use HDMI to the TV plus Optical direct to the AVR.

UHD 4K - if a new AVR is not on the cards there are devices such as the HDFury Integral you may want to consider.

Joe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mdram

its a neat device but with the cost of an integral being from 250-580, why not just put that toward an avr


----------

