# Ask the Editors: Are Dolby Atmos-Enabled Speakers Special?



## DS-21

Don't forget the EQ Dolby applies. Markus posted miniDSP biquads in one of the Atmos threads.


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## imagic

DS-21 said:


> Don't forget the EQ Dolby applies. Markus posted miniDSP biquads in one of the Atmos threads.


Do you mean the circuit/filter in the licensed Atmos-enabled speakers that incorporate a HRTF (head-realted transfer function)? It may help if there is excess leaked sound, but the sound that's coming from above creates the real HRTF when it bounces off your shoulders. So, if you manage to get most of the sound to reflect off the ceiling by raising the height speakers and using sound absorbing material (to limit dispersion) then the "natural" HRTF will do its thing.


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## markus767

The HRTF processing ('height filter') is described in Dolby's patents, e.g. WO2014107714A1. They obviously think that adding two HRTFs (one in the speaker response and one created by your own head and torso) is better than one.

My question would be, did you really perceive the sound as distinctively coming from the ceiling? Or was it more like a very spacious version of a sound coming from where the speaker is located?


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## DS-21

imagic said:


> Do you mean the circuit/filter in the licensed Atmos-enabled speakers that incorporate a HRTF (head-realted transfer function)?


Yes, that's "EQ" in too many words 



imagic said:


> It may help if there is excess leaked sound, but the sound that's coming from above creates the real HRTF when it bounces off your shoulders.


Be that as it may, the Atmos reflecting speaker configuration is indisputably designed with that EQ curve in place. IMO to get the result intended one should apply that EQ curve. Fortunately, there are instructions in the big Atmos thread somewhere how to do so with miniDSP and with Yamaha AVRs. I know Markus wrote the biquads for the miniDSP units. I don’t remember off hand who posted the programming for Yamaha AVRs.



imagic said:


> So, if you manage to get most of the sound to reflect off the ceiling by raising the height speakers and using sound absorbing material (to limit dispersion) then the "natural" HRTF will do its thing.


Perhaps. but at the same time it’s worth noting that the commercial Atmos modules from better designers (e.g. Elac, Debut KEF, Pioneer) don’t have any sound absorbing material on the baffle to limit dispersion, though. A speaker like the questioner's KEF Q15 (polar map available at gedlee.com, and incidentally an Andrew Jones design IIRC, just like the Pioneer and Elac Debut Atmos modules) would likely be very good in this role.


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## imagic

DS-21 said:


> Yes, that's "EQ" in too many words
> 
> 
> 
> Be that as it may, the Atmos reflecting speaker configuration is indisputably designed with that EQ curve in place. *IMO to get the result intended one should apply that EQ curve. *Fortunately, there are instructions in the big Atmos thread somewhere how to do so with miniDSP and with Yamaha AVRs. I know Markus wrote the biquads for the miniDSP units. I don’t remember off hand who posted the programming for Yamaha AVRs.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps. but at the same time *it’s worth noting that the commercial Atmos modules from better designers (e.g. Elac, Debut KEF, Pioneer) don’t have any sound absorbing material on the baffle to limit dispersion, though*. A speaker like the questioner's KEF Q15 (polar map available at gedlee.com, and incidentally an Andrew Jones design IIRC, just like the Pioneer and Elac Debut Atmos modules) would likely be very good in this role.


Sure, no reason you can't replicate/clone the measured EQ curve and apply something similar if you have parametric EQ available. And on the flip-side, Klipsch says its Atmos-enabled modules can also be wall-mounted and used as standard surrounds... weird, huh?

The lack of sound absorbing material on the modules might have to do with pragmatic/aesthetic limitations.


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## imagic

markus767 said:


> The HRTF processing ('height filter') is described in Dolby's patents, e.g. WO2014107714A1. They obviously think that adding two HRTFs (one in the speaker response and one created by your own head and torso) is better than one.
> 
> My question would be, *did you really perceive the sound as distinctively coming from the ceiling?* Or was it more like a very spacious version of a sound coming from where the speaker is located?


Yup. Now, well-designed and properly placed in-ceiling speakers are better (IMO) but in my experiments, I achieved reflected-sound results with hacked Atmos that (again IMO) beat what I have achieved so far with official licensed modules in terms of creating actual objects in a 3D soundfield, and not just overhead ambience. Nothing improves the sound of a reflected Atmos system as much as raising the height speakers a foot or two above the ear-level speakers they are paired with.


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## markus767

imagic said:


> Yup. Now, well-designed and properly placed in-ceiling speakers are better (IMO) but in my experiments, I achieved reflected-sound results with hacked Atmos that (again IMO) beat what I have achieved so far with official licensed modules in terms of creating actual objects in a 3D soundfield, and not just overhead ambience. Nothing improves the sound of a reflected Atmos system as much as raising the height speakers a foot or two above the ear-level speakers they are paired with.


Just to make sure we're not talking at cross-purposes. Did you play sound through a single reflected sound speaker and perceive the sound coming distinctively from the ceiling?


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## imagic

markus767 said:


> Just to make sure we're not talking at cross-purposes. Did you play sound through a single reflected sound speaker and perceive the sound coming distinctively from the ceiling?


Yes, that's pretty much the first thing I did. If something does not meet that threshold I'm not going to listen to it. I definitely do listen to "height only" as well as run the Atmos demo loops, which have very obvious, discrete height effects in them. I've heard far too many Atmos demos, and set up too many systems in my studio, to settle for some smeary ambient mess. My standard for a good Atmos experience is that it offer the ability to track individual sound objects in 3D space.

Oh, and I've certainly heard some dismal Atmos demos, too. And my own experiments did not work right away, hence the tweaks I prescribed. However, I did not attempt to replicate the HRTF "bump and notch"


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## blazar

I still think that if you love movies and multichannel, you will definitely love atmos and should consider "doing it right" with actual real channels in as many standard speaker locations as possible.

I suppose the technical dilemma of wiring and placing new speakers will ultimately make "atmos speakers" the only way to get any real adoption numbers...

Most people would be laughing if one suggested listening to stereo off of a phantom image from reflections off the ceiling.

It also seems like dolby is going to continue their 7.4.1 standard arrangement ... sigh... I guess you have to start somewhere.

2 channel: you are old school
3 channel: you are hard of hearing and need that center channel
5.1: you are "normal" and have little black cubes everywhere
7.1: you are obsessing just a little bit
11.1 matrixed: you are likely just a little bit delusional but boy don't those wides sound cool?
15+ channels: you are clearly insane.
7.4 with atmos upfiring speakers: you are insane, delusional, and perhaps straight up lazy...


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## Tin_Can

blazar said:


> I still think that if you love movies and multichannel, you will definitely love atmos and should consider "doing it right" with actual real channels in as many standard speaker locations as possible.
> 
> I suppose the technical dilemma of wiring and placing new speakers will ultimately make "atmos speakers" the only way to get any real adoption numbers...
> 
> Most people would be laughing if one suggested listening to stereo off of a phantom image from reflections off the ceiling.
> 
> It also seems like dolby is going to continue their 7.4.1 standard arrangement ... sigh... I guess you have to start somewhere.
> 
> 2 channel: you are old school
> 3 channel: you are hard of hearing and need that center channel
> 5.1: you are "normal" and have little black cubes everywhere
> 7.1: you are obsessing just a little bit
> 11.1 matrixed: you are likely just a little bit delusional but boy don't those wides sound cool?
> 15+ channels: you are clearly insane.
> 7.4 with atmos upfiring speakers: you are insane, delusional, and perhaps straight up lazy...


My Erskine theater has upfiring speakers. I'm not sure laziness has anything to do with it. Sometimes they might be the best option.


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## DS-21

blazar said:


> Most people would be laughing if one suggested listening to stereo off of a phantom image from reflections off the ceiling.


Ahem...

http://www.audiokinesis.com/dream-maker-lcs.html


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## markus767

DS-21 said:


> Ahem...
> 
> http://www.audiokinesis.com/dream-maker-lcs.html


Yes, the idea isn't exactly new:
http://www.carlssonplanet.com/history.php


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## imagic

markus767 said:


> Yes, the idea isn't exactly new:
> http://www.carlssonplanet.com/history.php


And then there's this: http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/au...igital-sound-projector/ysp-5600_g/?mode=model


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## markus767

imagic said:


> And then there's this: http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/au...igital-sound-projector/ysp-5600_g/?mode=model


Yep, Yamaha bought the IP from http://www.cambridgemechatronics.com
https://web.archive.org/web/20120111022541/http://www.cambridgemechatronics.com/technology/audio_DSP


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## blazar

DS-21 said:


> Ahem...
> 
> http://www.audiokinesis.com/dream-maker-lcs.html


I should rephrase... most audio dorks like us that hang around these forums... would be laughing...


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## markus767

blazar said:


> I should rephrase... most audio dorks like us that hang around these forums... would be laughing...


I wouldn't.


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## blazar

markus767 said:


> I wouldn't.


So am I to assume that you think that reflections are going to be a standard way of transmitting audio? Or perhaps will sound as accurate as direct radiating sound? What is the take home message here?


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## dholmes54

Is everyone talking about those up firing spks that go on top of your mains,if so why couldn't you buy a bookshelf spk, and angle it up,wouldn't that be cheaper?


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## Tin_Can

blazar said:


> So am I to assume that you think that reflections are going to be a standard way of transmitting audio? Or perhaps will sound as accurate as direct radiating sound? What is the take home message here?


I know this question wasn't directed at me, but the extra dispersion created by upfiring speakers was needed because of my low ceilings. With really high ceilings I'd rather use direct radiating.


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## 18Hurts

Uhhhh,

The Auro3D system makes the most sense to me as far as typical living rooms and not dedicated theater rooms. 

Found a review on the Auro 3D system VS Atmos and they preferred the Auro 3D. 

http://rslspeakers.com/dolby-atmos-vs-auro-3d/

If you had to have the "voice of God" center mounted ceiling speaker--just make it look like a light or something. It is only one so modify the ceiling fan by placing the speaker in the center and the lights around the sides.  Since the surround speakers (and speakers in general) have their space, not hard to place another speaker above it at the ceiling/wall junction. 

For now, I'll just ignore Atmos and pay attention to Auro3D to figure out how well it works in AVRs. Since 3D video seems to be dead, sometimes it is a good idea to sit back and see if the tech moves. My wife don't want holes in the ceiling with grills and I don't want sound bouncing speakers knowing they are a simulation so not worth the effort. 

Maybe the best format win and I hope they both don't die like 3D televisions before they get the tech correct.


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## markus767

blazar said:


> So am I to assume that you think that reflections are going to be a standard way of transmitting audio? Or perhaps will sound as accurate as direct radiating sound? What is the take home message here?


Without reflections there's no spaciousness, no apparent source width, no envelopment, no believeable auditory scene. Some recording techniques and speaker configurations aren't capable of delivering said reflections hence speakers utilizing the room as a 'mechanical effects processor' is nothing I would laugh at.


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## desray2k

imagic said:


> *Q*: Are Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers special? I have KEF Q900 tower speakers and want to use a pair of KEF Q15s as Atmos speakers on top of the towers. What angle should they be aimed at the ceiling?
> 
> - AlanAbby
> 
> *A*: I'm glad you asked about implementations of Dolby Atmos that do not conform to the company's guidelines. I've spent the better part of the past year toying with various Atmos configurations in my studio, as well as attending many demos, and in the process, I've tried various approaches similar to what you are asking about.
> 
> But before I get to that, let's review what Atmos-enabled speakers are. Dolby Atmos is an audio format that adds overhead speakers to a standard surround array. You can mount speakers directly on or in the ceiling, or you can use "Atmos-enabled" speakers that point up at the ceiling, which reflects their sound back down to the listeners, creating the effect of sound coming from overhead. Atmos-enabled speakers integrate upfiring speakers on top of conventional front-firing speakers, while Atmos "modules" are separate speakers normally placed on or near the front LR and/or surround LR speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Atmos-enabled speakers bounce sound off the ceiling to create height channels._
> 
> The answer to your first question—are Atmos-enabled speakers special?—is yes. The angle at which Atmos modules fire sound at the ceiling is just one factor in a proper Atmos-enabled speaker design. Other crucial considerations include dispersion characteristics and maintaining proper phase in 2-way designs.
> 
> Some Atmos-enabled speakers and modules use concentric drivers, while others employ one or more full-range drivers. Furthermore, good Atmos-oriented reflected-sound speaker designs use absorptive materials around the driver(s) to limit sound leaks to the sides.
> 
> Controlled dispersion is key to achieving the illusion that audio is coming from above. You only want to hear the reflected sound that bounces off the ceiling, not sound directly from the upfiring speaker itself. In order to achieve the best height effects, you want the beams of sound to be behave like spotlights, not floodlights.
> 
> One key differentiating factor between a standard bookshelf-style speaker and an Atmos module is the inclusion of a hardware circuit built into each module or speaker. Dolby says the processing it performs enhances the sense of sound coming from overhead. Manufacturers have to pay Dolby a licensing fee to include this technology in a design, and without it, a speaker does not qualify as Atmos-enabled.
> 
> When I first started experimenting with Atmos, using compact 2-way bookshelf speakers in a reflected-sound configuration produced good results. As I experimented, I discussed the use of satellite and bookshelf-style speakers for the reflected-sound channels with Dolby engineers as well as several speaker designers. While they did not explicitly endorse this sort of experimentation, I gleaned that it was OK to experiment as long as you understand the challenges you face.
> 
> Fortunately, Atmos for the home is robust and adaptable. If you keep a few key concepts in mind while experimenting with reflected-sound speaker arrangements, you should succeed in achieving 3D audio immersion without necessarily following Dolby's guidelines to the letter.
> 
> Let's discuss what you can do to implement Atmos using reflected sound and your KEF Q15s. It's 100% possible to get a good result—I know because I've done it using a number of different compact bookshelf speakers. The key to success is understanding how to coax the speakers you use into behaving more like well-designed Atmos modules than wide-dispersion bookshelf or satellite speakers.
> 
> During my experimentation, I found it was better to tell the system I was using standard in-ceiling speakers for height channels, rather than Atmos-enabled speakers. This let me choose the crossover point rather than using the predefined crossover prescribed by Dolby.
> 
> I determined that a 120 Hz crossover worked well for my reflective-sound system. The danger in using a lower crossover is that the low frequencies are omnidirectional, and they arrive at your ears directly from the speaker a lot earlier than the midrange and treble, which must travel up to the ceiling and back.
> 
> The KEF Q15 is an interesting choice for this application because it features a concentric 2-way driver, which turns out to be an optimum design for reflected-sound Atmos applications. KEF and Pioneer Elite both use concentric drivers in their Atmos-enabled products. However, it is quite possible that the dispersion of the Q15s is too wide to be optimal. There are two ways to solve this problem: *add some padding/absorptive material around the driver to control sound leakage—an approach used in many official Atmos-enabled speakers—or elevate the speakers.*
> 
> According to Dolby, the reflected-sound modules do not need to be directly above the speaker channel they pair with—there's about three feet of leeway for positioning. The best use of that leeway is to elevate the modules (or the speakers you are trying to use as modules) several feet above the tops of the corresponding ear-level speakers in the system. One option is to use short speaker stands on top of the main speakers. This simple act will ensure that you hear more reflected sound and less leakage.
> 
> If you can add acoustically absorptive padding around the driver and raise the whole contraption a foot or two, that is sure to produce the best result.
> 
> When it comes to the question of what is the optimal angle for the reflected-sound speakers, I recommend that you experiment to see what creates the best effect. The ideal angle will vary a bit depending on room size and seating position, but the goal is to make the reflected sound appear to come from the same spots you'd place ceiling-mounted speakers in an optimal configuration—that is, slightly in front of and (if you're using more than two upfiring speakers) behind the listening position.
> 
> One of the best ways to know if an improvised Atmos reflected-sound system is working properly is to run the automatic speaker configuration utility on the AVR or pre/pro. The system should report distances for the height channels that are consistent with the total distance from the speaker to the ceiling and then to the listening position.
> 
> If the automatic measurements don't include the extra distance required for the reflection, that's a sure sign it's not going to work because it means sound emanating directly from the speaker is louder than the reflected sound. For a proper Atmos effect, the reflected sound has to be louder than the direct sound.
> 
> If you take care to properly deal with the dispersion of your reflected-sound speakers, you'll likely achieve a good result. On the other hand, if you simply place bookshelf or satellite speakers (like the KEF Q15s) directly on top of existing tower speakers and wedge something underneath it, chances are the result will not sound very good. It's certainly worth experimenting if you already have the KEF Q15s on hand; you could well like what you hear.
> 
> If you've got an AV question, please send it to Scott Wilkinson ([email protected]) or Mark Henninger (imagic, [email protected]) via PM or email.


Hi Mark, can I check what kind of "absorptive material" would you recommend in your experience?


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## desray2k

Another question from me...

As I'm using a Dolby certified KEF R50 Atmos enabled speakers at this moment...does it make a difference if I choose pre-calibration setup for my speaker layout as "Height speakers" over "Dolby Atmos enabled speakers"...I presumed the latter should be the "correct" thing to do...but sometimes doing it "differently" may yield some surprisingly good results like what you did for your pseudo-Atmos enabled speaker setup when you decide to choose "height speakers" over Atmos enabled speakers.

Your thoughts?


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## IanR

I'd like to see a similar Q&A discussion thread specific to in/on ceiling Atmos speakers. I haven't seen a lot that are 'Atmos-certified' other than the recent Golden Ear review .. and I noticed that those have a uncommon angled design that provides some aiming as opposed to just down-firing. How important is it to have an 'Atmos certified' speaker as opposed to a good quality 'standard' ceiling speaker? What speaker qualities (concentric; wide dispersion; etc) are highly desired for the heights? Maybe these should be more like 'floods' than 'spots' .. to use your earlier analogy .. and maybe that recommendation depends on ceiling height (or not).


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## imagic

IanR said:


> I'd like to see a similar Q&A discussion thread specific to in/on ceiling Atmos speakers. I haven't seen a lot that are 'Atmos-certified' other than the recent Golden Ear review .. and I noticed that those have a uncommon angled design that provides some aiming as opposed to just down-firing. How important is it to have an 'Atmos certified' speaker as opposed to a good quality 'standard' ceiling speaker? What speaker qualities (concentric; wide dispersion; etc) are highly desired for the heights? Maybe these should be more like 'floods' than 'spots' .. to use your earlier analogy .. and maybe that recommendation depends on ceiling height (or not).


That is a good follow-up question and a discussion worth having.


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## IanR

imagic said:


> That is a good follow-up question and a discussion worth having.


Mark .. this thread is now months old and I haven't really seen any other conversation around Atmos speakers considerations.. other than the long Atmos for the home one. However, I have seen the odd thread (including this one ) where people are still trying to at least understand the basic decision process even without getting into the technical details of speaker technology. I took a shot late in that thread of trying to create a sort of decision tree to attack some of the basic, speaker-independent stuff as follows:

Is your ceiling flat with no significant irregularities or sound treatments and at least 7.5 feet high?

No: Do you rent or own?
Rent: Are you interested/capable/able to mount speakers on the ceiling .. and, if appropriate, does it meet WAF/SO approval?
No: You're screwed .. Atmos isn't for you unless someone builds an Atmos sound bar
Yes: Buy/build concentric driver speakers and mount them to the ceiling angled toward the main listening position​Own: Buy/build concentric driver speakers and mount them to the ceiling angled toward the main listening position​Yes: Are you interested/capable/able to mount speakers on the ceiling .. and, if appropriate, does it meet WAF/SO approval?
No: Buy/build Atmos enabled speakers/modules
Yes: You have a choice to Buy/build Atmos enabled speakers/modules or to buy/build concentric driver speakers and mount them to the ceiling angled toward the main listening position but the general and growing trend is that ceiling mounted is preferred over upfiring all other things being equal especially in home theaters where the owner is in control of most of the decisions.​
Once you get through those basic questions, there are still some technical ones that I've been thinking about. For example, how strong a recommendation is it to have concentric drivers? There seems to be a growing thought that you need them but it would be nice to see it confirmed. And can I use Atmos-enabled standalone modules and ceiling mount them? Pioneer has some in their Andrew Jones line and they'd probably be a nice timbre match for my fronts but I think either type (integrated or modules) of up-firing has been designed/altered to reduce the dispersion while ceiling mounted Atmos speakers are supposed to have a wide dispersion to reduce localization. But maybe the resulting ceiling reflections from an up-firing Atmos speaker are essentially 'widely dispersed' anyway after travelling twice the distance of ceiling mounts.

Sorry for the 20 questions .. Happy New Year in advance.


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## markus767

IanR said:


> Once you get through those basic questions, there are still some technical ones that I've been thinking about. For example, how strong a recommendation is it to have concentric drivers? There seems to be a growing thought that you need them but it would be nice to see it confirmed. And can I use Atmos-enabled standalone modules and ceiling mount them? Pioneer has some in their Andrew Jones line and they'd probably be a nice timbre match for my fronts but I think either type (integrated or modules) of up-firing has been designed/altered to reduce the dispersion while ceiling mounted Atmos speakers are supposed to have a wide dispersion to reduce localization. But maybe the resulting ceiling reflections from an up-firing Atmos speaker are essentially 'widely dispersed' anyway after travelling twice the distance of ceiling mounts.


Strong recommendation of using coax drivers for upfiring modules as they don't show the pronounced lobing of multi-way speakers. The dispersion pattern should be rather narrow though. I'm using fullrange drivers with good results.

Atmos-enabled speakers have a non-flat on-axis response so they should not be used as direct firing speakers, e.g. mounted on the ceiling.

Wide dispersion is necessary for delivering similar direct sound to multiple seats. As a by-product the room gets "illuminated" more than it should which creates louder reflections which can blur sound localization. This isn't a desirable effect. Single speakers should be localizable as much as possible. In a multichannel system the recording should deliver the necessary reflections that will make sounds more or less blurry/spacious.


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## wuther

Reminds me of HD 'enabled' antennas.


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## IanR

markus767 said:


> Atmos-enabled speakers have a non-flat on-axis response so they should not be used as direct firing speakers, e.g. mounted on the ceiling.


Tks


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## bass excavator

Hi all

I am thinking of installing an Atmos setup. I currently run 7.1. My speakers are Klipsch with RF-82s as mains and RS 62ii as main surrounds (very large surrounds). My room is about 1700 cubic ft in size with 8 foot ceilings. I sit about 8.5 ft from the main towers. If I install two height speakers, they would be situated about slightly forward from my main seating position about 1.5ft to 2ft forward from my ears. The height speakers would be about 4ft away from the main surrounds and about 6ft back from the main towers. The main surrounds are about 7ft from the main towers.

Obviously all pairs of speakers mentioned above would be fairly close to each other. In your honest opinion would it be worth the added cost for performance or does this sound like a mashup of confusion? To myself this sounds like to much of a cluster of confusion however I don't know. I'm after quality and not quantity. FWIW I own an SVS PB 13Ultra subwoofer and an Anthem Statement P5 multichannel monoblock amp. I use a smaller amp to run the surround backs with extra channels available for Atmos.

Thank you


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## welldun

bass excavator said:


> Hi all
> 
> I am thinking of installing an Atmos setup. I currently run 7.1. My speakers are Klipsch with RF-82s as mains and RS 62ii as main surrounds (very large surrounds). My room is about 1700 cubic ft in size with 8 foot ceilings. I sit about 8.5 ft from the main towers. If I install two height speakers, they would be situated about slightly forward from my main seating position about 1.5ft to 2ft forward from my ears. The height speakers would be about 4ft away from the main surrounds and about 6ft back from the main towers. The main surrounds are about 7ft from the main towers.
> 
> Obviously all pairs of speakers mentioned above would be fairly close to each other. In your honest opinion would it be worth the added cost for performance or does this sound like a mashup of confusion? To myself this sounds like to much of a cluster of confusion however I don't know. I'm after quality and not quantity. FWIW I own an SVS PB 13Ultra subwoofer and an Anthem Statement P5 multichannel monoblock amp. I use a smaller amp to run the surround backs with extra channels available for Atmos.
> 
> Thank you


Personally I think your room could be perfect for Atmos. If you think about how object based sound works, each speaker will only get sound when the event calls for it. Yet, in other situations where there is an ambiance (think jungle scene or maybe something like the sandstorms in Interstellar) your speaker proximity should provide a better/tighter transition since they won't be too far apart. This would make the sensation of being in the middle of the scene more realistic.

I was in the AMC 25 Dolby Cinema in NYC and there, the speakers are all aligned relative lively close to each other as well.

In my own room which is 18 feet long and 13 feet wide with 7.5 feet tall ceilings I'm using 5.2.4 and just finished testing 7.2.4 and I love it! I got a hold of the sept. 2015 atmos demo disc files and they sound awesome. I'm using the andrew jones elite atmos speakers and the Helicopter demo (along with the others) had myself and my guests looking up at the ceiling the whole time!


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## bass excavator

Thank you very much Welldun for your detailed explanation. This is exactly the help I was looking for. This helps to cement my decision in going for Atmos. All I really need are either replacing my towers for the Klipsch Atmos ones or adding height modules they make and also getting an Atmos pre-pro. I also would prefer to add speakers that fire off the ceiling in that I don't want to get into a drywall project by installing in-ceiling speakers. Too much hassle. 

Thanks again


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## welldun

bass excavator said:


> Thank you very much Welldun for your detailed explanation. This is exactly the help I was looking for. This helps to cement my decision in going for Atmos. All I really need are either replacing my towers for the Klipsch Atmos ones or adding height modules they make and also getting an Atmos pre-pro. I also would prefer to add speakers that fire off the ceiling in that I don't want to get into a drywall project by installing in-ceiling speakers. Too much hassle.
> 
> Thanks again


Glad I could help. 

When you do finally set up, assuming that your run the calibration software that comes with your avr, keep these two things in mind;

1. Make sure that the avr is adding the distance from the upfiring speaker to the ceiling and not just a straight line distance as in what you would have with just your main speakers. For example if your main Left and right speakers measure a distance of 9 feet from the main listening position and and then you add the atmos modules, If the distance from the modules to the ceiling is 4 feet, then your AVR should be showing a distance of 13 feet or so for the atmos modules.

2. Based on what Andrew Jones suggested for his Atmos enabled speakers during one of his demos, after your AVR has finished calibrating the system, feel free to add a few more db of gain to the Atmos channels. In one of the demos, due to the ceiling construction and the energy loss introduced by ceiling material's absorption, he added an extra 5db of gain to the atmos channels which resulted in a stellar presentation and experience. For what It's worth, with my own system (which you can see in my signature below), after calibration in my room I added 2db to each of the 4 atmos channels and it sound Great. Just make sure you add the same amount to each channel independently of what the original setting was. 

P.S. If you have an opportunity to get the September 2015 Atmos disc, do it. It has several demos (including the audio only clips like the helicopter, Santeria, Rain storm) that really show off the technology. Good luck and have fun!


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## bass excavator

welldun said:


> Glad I could help.
> 
> When you do finally set up, assuming that your run the calibration software that comes with your avr, keep these two things in mind;
> 
> 1. Make sure that the avr is adding the distance from the upfiring speaker to the ceiling and not just a straight line distance as in what you would have with just your main speakers. For example if your main Left and right speakers measure a distance of 9 feet from the main listening position and and then you add the atmos modules, If the distance from the modules to the ceiling is 4 feet, then your AVR should be showing a distance of 13 feet or so for the atmos modules.
> 
> 2. Based on what Andrew Jones suggested for his Atmos enabled speakers during one of his demos, after your AVR has finished calibrating the system, feel free to add a few more db of gain to the Atmos channels. In one of the demos, due to the ceiling construction and the energy loss introduced by ceiling material's absorption, he added an extra 5db of gain to the atmos channels which resulted in a stellar presentation and experience. For what It's worth, with my own system (which you can see in my signature below), after calibration in my room I added 2db to each of the 4 atmos channels and it sound Great. Just make sure you add the same amount to each channel independently of what the original setting was.
> 
> P.S. If you have an opportunity to get the September 2015 Atmos disc, do it. It has several demos (including the audio only clips like the helicopter, Santeria, Rain storm) that really show off the technology. Good luck and have fun!


Thanks again Welldun for your post reply. I have a technical question about Atmos. I an Atmos movie, will the 5 main channels - front mains, center, and surround left and right be the predominant work-horses and the surround backs and heights be added only on scenes where tracks are warranted for those speakers or is everything working independently throughout the whole movie. I know that in a 7.1 movie, the main 5 provide the lion's share of the sound experience. Will this work in the same way with Atmos.

Thanks and please ask for further clarification if I am not clear with my question.


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## welldun

bass excavator said:


> Thanks again Welldun for your post reply. I have a technical question about Atmos. I an Atmos movie, will the 5 main channels - front mains, center, and surround left and right be the predominant work-horses and the surround backs and heights be added only on scenes where tracks are warranted for those speakers or is everything working independently throughout the whole movie. I know that in a 7.1 movie, the main 5 provide the lion's share of the sound experience. Will this work in the same way with Atmos.
> 
> Thanks and please ask for further clarification if I am not clear with my question.


I believe that Atmos or not the front stage(especially the center speaker) will usually do the bulk of the work. The same was experienced in the Dolby Cinema that I visited. Since most of the action is being presented in front of you, It follows that most of the sound will also come from that direction. that is not to say that the rest of the speakers won't be working hard when its their turn, but simply that the front speakers will probably be the work horses. For now, I believe movies will continue to be recorded this way so the final presentation will also follow suit. What Atmos adds is a more accurate experience by allowing the sound to follow the camera with more precision. Setting up your speakers in a way that will allow the sound to travel all around you, will put you in the middle of the action. Enjoy!


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## Carsten Hdt

welldun said:


> I believe that Atmos or not the front stage(especially the center speaker) will usually do the bulk of the work. The same was experienced in the Dolby Cinema that I visited. Since most of the action is being presented in front of you, It follows that most of the sound will also come from that direction. that is not to say that the rest of the speakers won't be working hard when its their turn, but simply that the front speakers will probably be the work horses. For now, I believe movies will continue to be recorded this way so the final presentation will also follow suit. What Atmos adds is a more accurate experience by allowing the sound to follow the camera with more precision. Setting up your speakers in a way that will allow the sound to travel all around you, will put you in the middle of the action. Enjoy!


Dear all,

many thanks for your valuable insights in this thread and page as the whole.

I have a similar question like 'bass excavator'. My room is quite small as well and I am thinking of buying 4 Martin Logan Atmos players.

Now, the rears cannot be placed behind since my sofa is located directly at the wall:

* TV




Atmos>____SOFA____*


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## Carsten Hdt

Carsten Hdt said:


> Dear all,
> 
> many thanks for your valuable insights in this thread and page as the whole.
> 
> I have a similar question like 'bass excavator'. My room is quite small as well and I am thinking of buying 4 Martin Logan Atmos players.
> 
> Now, the rears cannot be placed behind since my sofa is located directly at the wall:
> 
> * TV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Atmos>____SOFA____*


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## welldun

Carsten Hdt said:


> Quick add: my TV is located in front of the sofa and not to the left (somehow the space characters were not represented correctly in my sketch before)


I believe that you will still get good overhead sound even if the speakers end up where your diagram illustrates them. In my own setup I have the rear atmos speakers behind and left and right of the second row of seating, and the effects still work very well for all seats. You can see the speaker location the pic below. 

*Note: Once you've calibrated the system, you may have to experiment with the positioning of the speakers a bit in order to get the best overall effect. If at all possible, try to move the sofa up a bit.


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## memesatwork

welldun said:


> ;
> 
> 1. Make sure that the avr is adding the distance from the upfiring speaker to the ceiling and not just a straight line distance as in what you would have with just your main speakers. For example if your main Left and right speakers measure a distance of 9 feet from the main listening position and and then you add the atmos modules, If the distance from the modules to the ceiling is 4 feet, then your AVR should be showing a distance of 13 feet or so for the atmos modules.


Do you have a reference for this? I'm honestly curious. My avr definitely has my upfiring Atmos speakers at the straight line distance from mlp. There's a separate adjustment for distance to ceiling. I had assumed the avr was doing the math itself on the distance. I guess it seems odd to me that you would have to calculate the reflecting distance to set it up properly. And I can't find any information that says one way or the other.

Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## DavidinCT

WOW, thanks for this. As my AVR supports Atmos, I just purchaced the home I have been renting for the last 6 years, I now can move forward with mounting speakers in my "media room" and i am ready to setup my 7.1 setup (living on 5.1 for the longest time).

I was figuring I needed to just put smaller speakers in the top left and top right of the front of the room for Atmos, boy, I was wrong. 

I guess a lot more reading is due... I have a whole Mirage setup M5-si and MCSI for fronts and M-290is for the rears, so finding a Atmos speakers for the front that will be tone matched might be hard, and I am sure not affordable... sigh...


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## welldun

memesatwork said:


> Do you have a reference for this? I'm honestly curious. My avr definitely has my upfiring Atmos speakers at the straight line distance from mlp. There's a separate adjustment for distance to ceiling. I had assumed the avr was doing the math itself on the distance. I guess it seems odd to me that you would have to calculate the reflecting distance to set it up properly. And I can't find any information that says one way or the other.
> 
> Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk


One of the goals when setting up your surround sound is to get the sound to be time aligned so that sound from every speaker reaches the main listening position at the same time. Your AVR depending on make and model, will have its own way of calculating this by using the calibration tones in its software. With Atmos modules the idea is for the sound to be bounced/reflected off of the ceiling in order for it to appear to be coming from above you. This requires that the modules typically be position slight above ear level and properly aimed at the ceiling. My Pioneer SC-99 requires that I also input the distance from the Atmos module/speaker to the ceiling and then computes the rest.

Prior to my SC-99 I had an Onkyo 838 which was retro fitted with Atmos via a firmware update. The Onkyo 838 however did not require the additional ceiling distance info. I reached out to Onkyo and received mixed info about how or if the AVR was calculating ceiling distance. One tech told me to manually add the distance after the calibration, and another one told me to leave the results "as is" after the calibration. 

I say all of this just to point out that different manufacturers will have different ways of formulating the proper timing for the Atmos effects. In the end, I say use which ever method gives you the best real world results.


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## madbrain

blazar said:


> I still think that if you love movies and multichannel, you will definitely love atmos and should consider "doing it right" with actual real channels in as many standard speaker locations as possible.
> 
> I suppose the technical dilemma of wiring and placing new speakers will ultimately make "atmos speakers" the only way to get any real adoption numbers...
> 
> Most people would be laughing if one suggested listening to stereo off of a phantom image from reflections off the ceiling.
> 
> It also seems like dolby is going to continue their 7.4.1 standard arrangement ... sigh... I guess you have to start somewhere.
> 
> 2 channel: you are old school
> 3 channel: you are hard of hearing and need that center channel
> 5.1: you are "normal" and have little black cubes everywhere
> 7.1: you are obsessing just a little bit
> 11.1 matrixed: you are likely just a little bit delusional but boy don't those wides sound cool?
> 15+ channels: you are clearly insane.
> 7.4 with atmos upfiring speakers: you are insane, delusional, and perhaps straight up lazy...


How about 7.1.4 with 4 subs and all 7 regular speakers bi-amped ?


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## AndreNewman

madbrain said:


> How about 7.1.4 with 4 subs and all 7 regular speakers bi-amped ?




Seek medical help..

Could you make an appointment for me while you are there?


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## tomvinelli

I have a 5.1.4 Atmos setup. Dolby enabled speakers .I have a flat ceiling however it's still hit and miss with the bounce . So I wasn't getting that top layer I was looking for or I should say hearing for.
I decided to try a pair of SVS elevation speakers for front height .Wow what a difference ! I'm hearing what I hoped for. You have to worry about the bounce and all of that. In fairness not all Atmos movies are not mixed the way we may want them. A dolby demo disc is what I used to test Dolby enabled vs The SVS's . You can hear what everyone has been making a fuss about. The SVS's clearly the way to go or any height speaker. The SVS'S are designed for that top layer in Atmos. And of course Dolby doesn't put there stamp of approval on these or any height speakers lol. So soon I will get to more for the rear.


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## JCLGiants

In order to have a true Dolby Atmos system, don’t the rear speakers need to be Dolby Enabled? Upfiring? I have seen systems like the Nakamichi that are about to get Dolby Atmos certification but have just regular forward firing speakers.


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## LNEWoLF

JCLGiants said:


> In order to have a true Dolby Atmos system, don’t the rear speakers need to be Dolby Enabled? Upfiring? I have seen systems like the Nakamichi that are about to get Dolby Atmos certification but have just regular forward firing speakers.


For the Nakamichi 9.2 the surround and rear surround speakers come shipped attached in a dipole configuration. The speakers can be detached and then be placed individually due to the design of the speaker housing. So that they angle upwards toward the ceiling. Nakamichi will be releasing new firmware that will will further produce the elevation effects with Dolby Atmos material. Thru the current hardware and new Atmos firmware.

You can read about it on nakamich-usa.com

This thread on AVS 
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/195-...2-dts-x-dual-subwoofers-soundbars-thread.html


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## Blade 77

Mark Henninger said:


> *Q*: Are Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers special? I have KEF Q900 tower speakers and want to use a pair of KEF Q15 s as Atmos speakers on top of the towers. What angle should they be aimed at the ceiling?
> - AlanAbby
> 
> *A*: I'm glad you asked about implementations of Dolby Atmos that do not conform to the company's guidelines. I've spent the better part of the past year toying with various Atmos configurations in my studio, as well as attending many demos, and in the process, I've tried various approaches similar to what you are asking about.
> 
> But before I get to that, let's review what Atmos-enabled speakers are. Dolby Atmos is an audio format that adds overhead speakers to a standard surround array. You can mount speakers directly on or in the ceiling, or you can use "Atmos-enabled" speakers that point up at the ceiling, which reflects their sound back down to the listeners, creating the effect of sound coming from overhead. Atmos-enabled speakers integrate upfiring speakers on top of conventional front-firing speakers, while Atmos "modules" are separate speakers normally placed on or near the front LR and/or surround LR speakers.
> 
> The answer to your first question—are Atmos-enabled speakers special?—is yes. The angle at which Atmos modules fire sound at the ceiling is just one factor in a proper Atmos-enabled speaker design. Other crucial considerations include dispersion characteristics and maintaining proper phase in 2-way designs.
> 
> Some Atmos-enabled speakers and modules use concentric drivers, while others employ one or more full-range drivers. Furthermore, good Atmos-oriented reflected-sound speaker designs use absorptive materials around the driver(s) to limit sound leaks to the sides.
> 
> Controlled dispersion is key to achieving the illusion that audio is coming from above. You only want to hear the reflected sound that bounces off the ceiling, not sound directly from the upfiring speaker itself. In order to achieve the best height effects, you want the beams of sound to be behave like spotlights, not floodlights.
> 
> One key differentiating factor between a standard bookshelf-style speaker and an Atmos module is the inclusion of a hardware circuit built into each module or speaker. Dolby says the processing it performs enhances the sense of sound coming from overhead. Manufacturers have to pay Dolby a licensing fee to include this technology in a design, and without it, a speaker does not qualify as Atmos-enabled.
> 
> When I first started experimenting with Atmos, using compact 2-way bookshelf speakers in a reflected-sound configuration produced good results. As I experimented, I discussed the use of satellite and bookshelf-style speakers for the reflected-sound channels with Dolby engineers as well as several speaker designers. While they did not explicitly endorse this sort of experimentation, I gleaned that it was OK to experiment as long as you understand the challenges you face.
> 
> Fortunately, Atmos for the home is robust and adaptable. If you keep a few key concepts in mind while experimenting with reflected-sound speaker arrangements, you should succeed in achieving 3D audio immersion without necessarily following Dolby's guidelines to the letter.
> 
> Let's discuss what you can do to implement Atmos using reflected sound and your KEF Q15s. It's 100% possible to get a good result—I know because I've done it using a number of different compact bookshelf speakers. The key to success is understanding how to coax the speakers you use into behaving more like well-designed Atmos modules than wide-dispersion bookshelf or satellite speakers.
> 
> During my experimentation, I found it was better to tell the system I was using standard in-ceiling speakers for height channels, rather than Atmos-enabled speakers. This let me choose the crossover point rather than using the predefined crossover prescribed by Dolby.
> 
> I determined that a 120 Hz crossover worked well for my reflective-sound system. The danger in using a lower crossover is that the low frequencies are omnidirectional, and they arrive at your ears directly from the speaker a lot earlier than the midrange and treble, which must travel up to the ceiling and back.
> 
> The KEF Q15 is an interesting choice for this application because it features a concentric 2-way driver, which turns out to be an optimum design for reflected-sound Atmos applications. KEF and Pioneer Elite both use concentric drivers in their Atmos-enabled products. However, it is quite possible that the dispersion of the Q15s is too wide to be optimal. There are two ways to solve this problem: add some padding/absorptive material around the driver to control sound leakage—an approach used in many official Atmos-enabled speakers—or elevate the speakers.
> 
> According to Dolby, the reflected-sound modules do not need to be directly above the speaker channel they pair with—there's about three feet of leeway for positioning. The best use of that leeway is to elevate the modules (or the speakers you are trying to use as modules) several feet above the tops of the corresponding ear-level speakers in the system. One option is to use short speaker stands on top of the main speakers. This simple act will ensure that you hear more reflected sound and less leakage.
> 
> If you can add acoustically absorptive padding around the driver and raise the whole contraption a foot or two, that is sure to produce the best result.
> 
> When it comes to the question of what is the optimal angle for the reflected-sound speakers, I recommend that you experiment to see what creates the best effect. The ideal angle will vary a bit depending on room size and seating position, but the goal is to make the reflected sound appear to come from the same spots you'd place ceiling-mounted speakers in an optimal configuration—that is, slightly in front of and (if you're using more than two upfiring speakers) behind the listening position.
> 
> One of the best ways to know if an improvised Atmos reflected-sound system is working properly is to run the automatic speaker configuration utility on the AVR or pre/pro. The system should report distances for the height channels that are consistent with the total distance from the speaker to the ceiling and then to the listening position.
> 
> If the automatic measurements don't include the extra distance required for the reflection, that's a sure sign it's not going to work because it means sound emanating directly from the speaker is louder than the reflected sound. For a proper Atmos effect, the reflected sound has to be louder than the direct sound.
> 
> If you take care to properly deal with the dispersion of your reflected-sound speakers, you'll likely achieve a good result. On the other hand, if you simply place bookshelf or satellite speakers (like the KEF Q15s) directly on top of existing tower speakers and wedge something underneath it, chances are the result will not sound very good. It's certainly worth experimenting if you already have the KEF Q15s on hand; you could well like what you hear.
> 
> If you've got an AV question, please send it to Scott Wilkinson ([email protected]) or Mark Henninger (imagic, [email protected] ) via PM or email.





MasterkillerX said:


> lso, I've ordered a new hdmi 2.1 cable on Amazon yesterday - Audiano 8K Cable - so hopefully this helps. Should


hello, i have read the above text and i would like yours help. I have a 5.1.4 with Denon 3700 and 4xQuadral A5 Dolby Enabled Speakers. My problem is that i cant get feeling that sound is coming from above. What do i need to change?


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## smdelaney

A number of manufacturers are producing front speakers with an up-firing Atmos enabled driver built into the top. If you don't have the ability to make minor adjustment to the upward angle how are you supposed to position the fronts and still expect to have a meaningful Atmos outcome? Are those speaker designs just a gimmick? How could they possibly be correctly positioned for a variety of physical room layouts with different ceiling heights?

Also, as long as one maintains sufficient vertical separation between surrounds and "elevation" speakers (appropriately positioned on the walls at the ceiling pointed at MLP), does it matter if the speaker is "Atmos enabled" or would any speaker that would work as a surround be a suitable stand in? When (in 2+ years) I upgrade my speakers I'm hoping to repurpose my current satellites as surrounds and moving the surrounds to Atmos duty. If I also replace the surrounds I would instead repurpose my satellites for Atmos. Is either plan likely to gain me the desired Atmos effect?


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## markus767

smdelaney said:


> A number of manufacturers are producing front speakers with an up-firing Atmos enabled driver built into the top. If you don't have the ability to make minor adjustment to the upward angle how are you supposed to position the fronts and still expect to have a meaningful Atmos outcome?


You can't expect "a meaningful Atmos outcome". All you get is a more spacious presentation. Not necessarily what the mixer intended.



smdelaney said:


> Are those speaker designs just a gimmick?


They are certainly far from what they are supposed to do and what they could do when aimed correctly.



smdelaney said:


> How could they possibly be correctly positioned for a variety of physical room layouts with different ceiling heights?


They can't. One would need to have ceiling firing speakers that can be aimed independently from the speakers they are sitting on top. Furthermore Dolby Atmos enabled speakers really just work for a single seat not multiple seats.


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