# The ONE SINGLE ReplayTV / $149 Activation Thread



## jleavens

This is it. Post factual information here, no personal attacks or simple opinions. Any other threads created will be merged into this one.


[UPDATE] At this point, I realize that there's no way I can just tell people to stop talking about this...


As long as it stays in this thread and is not personal or flaming, fair game.


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## BeefStu

FACT: jleavens is my new hero for killing off all of the annoying noob threads that have littered this forum for the past 14 days 


Now let's all just have a group hug and start speculating about DVArchive 3.0


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## SSFan

As a long time user of RTV, I'm concerned about its brand value in the market. With all these people filing complaints in Atty. General office, TV News Show, BBB, Small Claims Court, would it affect the RTV brand? At the end of this hoopla, I hope the brand does not get "damaged" and stays credible in the market.


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## Pete Rod

So I did my CC return of 2 55xx's that went deep sleep. Will buy then back when they go refurb at the outlet. So on to bigger and better things.


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## rmalbers

I hate to say it but I think this 'brand' is done. I think most people that are going to spend this kind of money on something are going to check it out on the internet and run across this mess.

Having said that, 'brand' names can be changed and we might not see ReplayTV on the market after a couple of months, we will see 'whatever' on the front of what was ReplayTV's and really nothing will change but what it's called. The names have changed in the past and I predict the name will change again, real quick, but not the company producing them.


Whoops, I just noticed I wasn't suppose to enter an opinion, sorry about that.


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## Slack

Can I be the first to say that:
















The Sky Is Falling.




Thanks, I needed that.


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## tluxon

Saying they aren't long for the market is very much an emotional response. This latest SNAFU might end up helping ReplayTV more than hurting it, but the future for standalone DVRs of ANY brand is very much up in the air.


It doesn't seem to me to make much sense for DNNA to invest much in improving these glorified VCRs, especially with HD being more and more in demand (both HDTV and HD-DVD) without any conversion (by this I mean storage and playback on demand) standards set in stone yet. However, even if they don't spend a dime developing the Replay beyond its current configuration, they could be integrated into very robust networked systems quite easily.


It's way too early to be making predictions of success or failure in this rapidly evolving technology.


Cheers!


Tim


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## ftw

The title of this thread is not very helpful - should be something like "The ONE SINGLE Is-my-$149-unit-activated-or-not Thread"


Just my $10.


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## jleavens

How's that?


Keep it to facts, folks. Replay's activated, deactivated, back to the store. Replay said this, Replay said that. That kind of thing.


Pete, sorry that the Replay didn't work out for you. We could tell that you were excited by the prospect...


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## bwzippy

As of tonight, my box got reactivated. I turned it on just to check it, and it was sitting at the "You must contact ReplayTV blah blah" screen. So, I pressed remind me later and the box went to registered after I did a net connect (243 Zones, net connect).


Am I missing something here? Will it get deactivated again? I checked the setup screen and it says Registered and I clicked the registration screen and it says Registered.


Anyone else try this? Anyone else getting the same or different results tonight?


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## ftw

Quote:

_Originally posted by jleavens_
*How's that?


Keep it to facts, folks. Replay's activated, deactivated, back to the store. Replay said this, Replay said that. That kind of thing.
*
Much better. I'm gonna go take all the $10 bills I never actually sent out and go get snookered to start the new year.


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## Markz2k

Ok, here's a fact:

*"ReplayTV customers furious over service charges"*


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...ss/7609763.htm


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## jleavens

It's an AP story, which means that it will be widely carried.


(Of course, last time AP carried a story about ReplayTV, they incorrectly announced that QuickSkip had been removed from the product...)


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## repnewbie

My $150 Circuit city ReplayTV 5504 DVR is still activated. I last connected to their servers on 12/30/2003 at 1300E.


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## joe221

They're not happy in NJ!

Channel 10 in NJ, article. 


DNNA isn't exacly getting good Press. As far as I'm concerned when the bounced my rebate...


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## GooberedUp

AP's got it with a brand new story (not related to the earlier NJ article) and it's burning up the newswires.


Do a google news search for replaytv + irk


and/or


replaytv + furious


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## Diode1

Still activated as it should be, forced net connect minutes ago.

AP News wire, Wow that din't take to long.

The ball drops on New Years Eve in more then one way.


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## RChobby

It is on ABC news now

ABC news


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## millwood

the interesting thing in the Nj story is that:


1) rptv acknowledges "miscommunications", and miscommunications at "multiple levels". That's a (slight) change of tone from the blame-our-retailer stand;

2) rptv is searching for a solution.


again, i think rptv made a fatal mistake in day 1(12/17/03) by replying on the retailers for a foundamental change in its business model, with so much inventory in circulation and the holiday shopping season in full swing. It is only a fool from the mars that would have thought of doing that.


the 2nd fatal mistake is their lack of action until 12/22/03. the silence added to the confusion and dug rptv deeper into the trouble.


the 3rd fatal mistake is the blame-our-retailer announcement on 12/22/03 (or is it 12/23?). You just don't want to kill your future sales, no matter whose mistake it really is.


the 4th fatal mitake is their insistance on conditioning services on prices paid (no legal basis) and starting to deactivate rptvs in the field based on incompete s/n book keeping. that's a breach of contract between customers who paid the full price and customers who may have a claim on 3-yr of free services. This also calls into the language in the 12/22/03 press release that offered customers on 3-yr commitment then life-time services. Those who bought their units prior to 12/22/03 for $149 now may have the right to free life-time services, should rptv lose the first battle (of if those $149 customers have free 3-yr services). I suspect the legal department proof-read the press release not knowing the $149 fiasco.


the 5th mistake (may not be fatal tho.) is their giving in to some customers when approached by some philly TV stations, depending on how that was communicated to the Tv stations. You just should not make a move when you don't know the full ramifications of that move and in the worst case they should maintain equality and not discriminate some customers while favoring others (those backed by the TV stations).


folks, I think we are living "history" right now. this whole thing may very well turn into a wonderful case of how NOT to manage a crisis.


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## Diode1

Quote:

_Originally posted by jleavens_
*It's an AP story, which means that it will be widely carried.


(Of course, last time AP carried a story about ReplayTV, they incorrectly announced that QuickSkip had been removed from the product...)*
They did release a correction after the error.
http://www.webprowire.com/summaries/511743.html


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## toots

Fact:


The textbook on this sort of thing has already been written, so it's too late to include ReplayTV.


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## tluxon

The more people that learn as much as possible about this, the better. Once the story gets out to the masses with a balanced perspective of BOTH sides it will be harder to emotionalize the issue.


Happy New Year!


Tim


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## Grosvenor

In the "Ethical Behavior" thread the David Bott said:

Quote:

I would agree with this...but then I ask myself this...how did they know to come to this site to post about the issue as a first time poster? I only ask this because one could conclude that they were here reading all along and knew what they were buying. Other then that...how did they know to come here right after?
In my case I googled.


I have been thinking about a DVR for quite a while. TV is a very small part of my life. I have never bought a television costing more than $30. I have not had anything other than broadcast (with cheap rabbit ears) since I moved out of my parents house in 1986. I have gone years without a TV at all on several occasions. Still I wanted a DVR. I enjoy a couple shows but I'm not going to schedule my life around a TV show.


I saw the low price at techbargains and bought one. I got it for my parents. I had no idea what to get them for Christmas and this seemed ideal. My mom is always complaining about how the few shows she likes are on after her bedtime. Now that they have DirecTV it is even worse. Frasier starts two hours after she goes to bed.


I thought about it and decided to get one for myself too. I had been thinking about putting together a Shuttle box as a DVR/media center but for $150 I would rather buy off the shelf. Now I can watch Angel.


I thought the price was legitimate. I don't see that there is much to a DVR. I see the current DVR situation as being like routing (something I do know) was in the early 1990's. Back then if you wanted a router you bought a Sun box and rolled your own or you bought a cisco. They were expensive. They were complicated. Over time people developed ASICs and routing ceased to be the black art it once was. Now consumer routers are free after rebate.


I used to work for a (the?) patent attorney for TiVo. He seemed to think that the IP in a TiVo was something close to magic. Maybe he is right, but I don't see it. There are several open source projects that look pretty good. Give them another year or two and they should be near perfect.


From these forums it sounds like ReplayTV has not revised the hardware in a very long time. Judging by the specs I believe it. My understanding is that these things have cheap, slow MIPS chips. They have tiny hard drives. 10/100 NICs. The IP put into the software and UI have surely been made back. Dial up connections from iPass are cheap. If TitanTV can provide program listings free to the user then I have a hard time believing it costs ReplayTV that much to maintain their servers.


My assumption was that the new management had outsourced everything. Customer service went to Wipro (or someone), program listings to TitanTV (or someone), dial up to iPass. Now they want to get the old units out of the channel. That would give them a chunk of cash. Always a good thing to get out of an acquisition. At least that is what I would do if I were DNNA. Start figuring out how to sell my UI instead of TiVo's. Building hardware is a suckers game. Licensing is where the money is.


Now that I have looked into it I see the ReplayTV was a bad purchase for my parents. A DirecTiVo would have been much better. They are $100 and the service is only $5/month. For me the lifetime of one of these is 12-18 months. Two years at the most. From a hardware standpoint what we have now is barely useable. I look forward to changing channels without a "Please Wait" screen.


I seem to have digressed. What I wanted to say was "We Googled." I'm sorry we crashed your party. I was just looking for the people who know about ReplayTV.


Dan


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## Diode1

Happy New Year to all.

Here is a very interesting look at DVRs by the Wall Street Journal.

http://www.sunspot.net/technology/ba...ness-headlines 


With the market soon to be saturated with DVR offers, I know I have been receiving them by mail from both Direct TV and Comcast cable as we subscribe to both, the fight for market share has begun some time ago.


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## QuicknDirty

Quote:

_Originally posted by Grosvenor_
*In the "Ethical Behavior" thread the David Bott said:




In my case I googled.


I have been thinking about a DVR for quite a while. TV is a very small part of my life. I have never bought a television costing more than $30. I have not had anything other than broadcast (with cheap rabbit ears) since I moved out of my parents house in 1986. I have gone years without a TV at all on several occasions. Still I wanted a DVR. I enjoy a couple shows but I'm not going to schedule my life around a TV show.


I saw the low price at techbargains and bought one. I got it for my parents. I had no idea what to get them for Christmas and this seemed ideal. My mom is always complaining about how the few shows she likes are on after her bedtime. Now that they have DirecTV it is even worse. Frasier starts two hours after she goes to bed.


I thought about it and decided to get one for myself too. I had been thinking about putting together a Shuttle box as a DVR/media center but for $150 I would rather buy off the shelf. Now I can watch Angel.


I thought the price was legitimate. I don't see that there is much to a DVR. I see the current DVR situation as being like routing (something I do know) was in the early 1990's. Back then if you wanted a router you bought a Sun box and rolled your own or you bought a cisco. They were expensive. They were complicated. Over time people developed ASICs and routing ceased to be the black art it once was. Now consumer routers are free after rebate.


I used to work for a (the?) patent attorney for TiVo. He seemed to think that the IP in a TiVo was something close to magic. Maybe he is right, but I don't see it. There are several open source projects that look pretty good. Give them another year or two and they should be near perfect.


From these forums it sounds like ReplayTV has not revised the hardware in a very long time. Judging by the specs I believe it. My understanding is that these things have cheap, slow MIPS chips. They have tiny hard drives. 10/100 NICs. The IP put into the software and UI have surely been made back. Dial up connections from iPass are cheap. If TitanTV can provide program listings free to the user then I have a hard time believing it costs ReplayTV that much to maintain their servers.


My assumption was that the new management had outsourced everything. Customer service went to Wipro (or someone), program listings to TitanTV (or someone), dial up to iPass. Now they want to get the old units out of the channel. That would give them a chunk of cash. Always a good thing to get out of an acquisition. At least that is what I would do if I were DNNA. Start figuring out how to sell my UI instead of TiVo's. Building hardware is a suckers game. Licensing is where the money is.


Now that I have looked into it I see the ReplayTV was a bad purchase for my parents. A DirecTiVo would have been much better. They are $100 and the service is only $5/month. For me the lifetime of one of these is 12-18 months. Two years at the most. From a hardware standpoint what we have now is barely useable. I look forward to changing channels without a "Please Wait" screen.


I seem to have digressed. What I wanted to say was "We Googled." I'm sorry we crashed your party. I was just looking for the people who know about ReplayTV.


Dan*
Dan-


I'd unfortunately have to disagree with you on all points, even in light of recent developments that cause some hard feelings with DNNA....


The 5040 is an awsome piece of tech. Having owned a Panasonic Showstopper for a few years now, I have adjusted the way that I watch TV to take full advantage of the units. No more channel surfing (which eliminates the slow response) because none is needed. If I want to see what else is on TV, I use the directional keys to "surf" the descriptions, while the show I'm watching plays in the background...or just record and watch at my leisure only the shows I want to watch.


Don't get me started on the Commercial Advance feature, which has to be the single most amazing thing ever invented for my TV...PERIOD. Having used my 5040 now for a couple of weeks, I can't begin to tell you how much I LOVE commercial advance. I can't imagine giving it up. The networking is great as well. No, we're not dealing with any amazing "voodoo" technology, nothing magical about what the units do or how they do it...but I think that has more to do with more technologically advanced consumers than anything else. They are a good idea, although marketed poorly, IMO.


However- keeping in mind that I originally paid about $250 for my Showstopper w/lifetime service, I wouldn't pay a $200 premium for commercial advance or any other of the "advancements" (or $400 in my case, as I have two new units). When I stumbled across the deal, I jumped because it was a deal for the equipment and service, like my Showstopper. If the box and product information posted at the store, and the salesperson I was talking with at the time not all tell me that service was included at the $149 price point, I would not have purchased. Period.


This being said, I do think that DNNA hosed themselves with this snafu. If I was not already a customer, I wouldn't buy one after reading what I'm finding online about this now...if nothing else, I'd be concerned about the financial impact involved. The more you dig, the more you find out how RPTV has been passed around like a hot potato... which isn't exactly a good selling point for the brand.


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## Diode1

For those that may have an inside scoop with ReplayTV, can you please explain the logic of this statement within the Official Press release dated

December 22, 2003
http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/com...ess.asp?ID=598 
Quote:

ReplayTV 5500 Series customers who have already purchased 3-year subscriptions to the ReplayTV Service under the previous pricing model will have their services automatically extended for the lifetime of the product at no additional charge.
Would'nt it have been better for Replay not to make these statements at this given time when they found themselves in serious limbo with many of the green sticker three year service boxes being sold at $149?

This seems that it only added to the confusion along with administering further damages to themselves only to deal with at a later time.


Mod's

Feel free to delete this post if it is felt OT,

I have not read any viewpoints to this particular point of the press release anywhere here at AVS or other forums.


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## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by Diode1_
*Would'nt it have been better for Replay not to make these statements at this given time when they found themselves in serious limbo with many of the green sticker three year service boxes being sold at $149?

This seems that it only added to the confusion along with administering further damages to themselves only to deal with at a later time.*
I mentioned that in my post earlier. yeah, it is a serious problem for rptv as they don't know how the whole thing would shape out to be. If they are obligated to provide free 3-yr services to those $149 units, it stands to argue that all those units will have to be upgraded to free life-time subscription.


I speculated that the press release was pre-drafted and probably was reviewed by the legal department without knowing the whole fiasco. After it broke, no one from the legal department reviewed the document before its final release.


That may have contributed to rptv's hardened position on this because they realized now that the loss, if they gave into the $149 unit owners, would be that much bigger because of the automatic conversion.


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## Diode1

Thanks millwood

This just proves a point, read the thread not once but twice prior to posting anything. duh..


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## gweempose

Quote:

_Originally posted by millwood_
*

I mentioned that in my post earlier. yeah, it is a serious problem for rptv as they don't know how the whole thing would shape out to be. If they are obligated to provide free 3-yr services to those $149 units, it stands to argue that all those units will have to be upgraded to free life-time subscription.*
I think you may be missing the point. There isn't going to be any such thing as three years of built-in service anymore. It doesn't matter if it's an old box for $499 or a new box for $150. DNNA obviously realized it was going to be too much of a headache to support the 3-year pricing structure. If DNNA ultimately caves, everyone will without a doubt be getting free *lifetime* service.


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## zyxwvuu

How many ReplayTVs were sold at $149 with 3 years activation?


It seems that thousands were sold. Any news to the exact number?


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## Scyber

Quote:

_Originally posted by joe221_
*They're not happy in NJ!

Channel 10 in NJ, article. 
*
NBC 10 is a philadelphia (PA) station.


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## zeromorph

Quote:

_Originally posted by gweempose_
*... If DNNA ultimately caves, everyone will without a doubt be getting free lifetime service.*
If DNNA caved - who would support the service? That's the problem, we're not talking about just flipping a switch in your Replay and you have life time service - we talking about a daily service that has to be updated, and THAT costs money. Someone has to maintain the channel guide, and I don't think anyone is going to jump up and do it for free. If they did, would it be as good? How many times would a person have to miss Love Boat because the channel information is wrong before thay just gave up and got one of a dozen PVRs that are more up to date with the current standards?


Look at Divix players. Sure, they work as regular DVD players now - but the "subscription" part of the players are just wasted now.


Companies kill themselves all the time with bad marketing and bad decision making. It doesn't matter how good your products are - it's whether the consumer likes it or not. Look at Amiga - far superior to PCs at the time, made the mistake of selling them almost exclusively at Toys R Us. No one ever took them seriously again. Look at Syquest vs. Iomega in the early days - Syquest was bigger and faster, but Iomega was blue! and hip! So people bought the cool product. There are countless other examples.


Replay gone forever? Nah, you can still buy an Amiga and a Syquest drive - but the gap has grown much larger between the technology levels. I don't know what the future holds, but I wouldn't count on lifetime service.


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## jleavens

I'm confused. Are you guys complaining about the conversion to lifetime service?


Look, let's put aside the issue of implementation here, because we all recognize that it was a mess. But aside from that, Replay decided (smartly) to change the price of the hardware on the shelves. Putting ReplayTV on the shelf for $50 less than a TiVo (with the same service pricing) is a great move.


They also decided (smartly again) not to alienate customers who had bought 3-year activations for $499 by giving lifetime service to new owners who would pay $450 all-in ($149+$300 activation). I'm sure it also bought them some benefits by having two service levels instead of three (just monthly and lifetime), but it was also an excellent move as well. If they hadn't, we would be flooded with posts complaining about second-class 3-year citizens.


So, I'm not sure there's a huge difference to Replay right now between 3-year and lifetime activation. If they change their mind or if they're forced to provide service on these $149 units, I believe it's technically possible for them to provide 3-year service plans for them still, but it may also be easier to provide lifetime. I don't have all the facts here. Either way, the decision to drop the price and convert units to lifetime was made before the mess and would stand regardless, I think.


And yeah, I'm aware that a thousand great decisions can be undone by just one bad one. I'm just trying to discuss the whole picture here.


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## beatwerx

i got 4. Start adding!


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## roddogii

Quote:

After NBC 10 contacted the company, they have agreed to activate all three of the units Wilson bought and not charge the fee.
After reading the NBC10 article, it seems to me that by activating all three units, they ultimately admitted fault and have agreed that customers shouldn't be holding the bag.


Wouldn't they have just told the man to return the units (as others here have) if in fact they truly believed it was just a retailer error? Will this require everyone who purchased the units under that impression to get their local "7 on my side" investigative reporting team to call on their behalf?


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## Diode1

Quote:

_Originally posted by jleavens_
*I'm confused. Are you guys complaining about the conversion to lifetime service?*
No, not at all.

I just felt that those statements/move made things a bit harder for Replay to digest at this time.

This was something that could have been handled internally until this whole mess was sorted out.

I also see your point as to three year or lifetime costs as not a real issue.


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## jleavens

Okay folks, here's news...


I just got this message from Mike Adell, the VP of Sales at ReplayTV, who asked me to pass it along to the forum:


"We have reactivated all units previously deactivated and will be assessing

the situation over the next few days."


So the issue still appears to be fluid.


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## Diode1

Damage control.

This move may make it difficult on Replay later if they deactivate again.

Those that only have a 14 day return policy may lose that.

And the retailers will also say it's to late, just to cut the loses.

So this leaves people sending them back to Replay for a cash back offer within 30 days, this is from within the manual.

These shipping costs would be on replay.

This is a positive move on behalf of Replay.


Edit:

Just the logistics involved if people took it upon them selves to return

product directly to replay as this is an offer given.

Replay would be paying out full retail + tax paid for inventory that had middleman & retailers profits built in.

Just the manpower to sort this out would be a tremedus cost.


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## tarfin

Wow! Good move DNNA


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## wagoss

I have an RTV5504 that I was trying to figure out if it was deactivated. I tried the Menu>Setup and I do not have a menu item that says "Connect to replay" The last time it shows an update is 12/20/03 and the schedule only goes out to 01/11/04.


Note: I called ReplayTV on the 22nd and had it activated for 3 years by the CSR.


Second Note: I also received a Pioneer DVD/TiVo for Christmas and was wondering why people thought that the Replay was better. They both have features I like and dislike and I think they are balanced. If the need arises again, I will probably stay away from ReplayTV because of this debacle.


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## wagoss

OOPs, I mean it was last updated 12/30/03 NOT 12/20/03


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## telamon

Quote:

_Originally posted by wagoss_
*I have an RTV5504 that I was trying to figure out if it was deactivated. I tried the Menu>Setup and I do not have a menu item that says "Connect to replay" The last time it shows an update is 12/20/03 and the schedule only goes out to 01/11/04.


Note: I called ReplayTV on the 22nd and had it activated for 3 years by the CSR.


Second Note: I also received a Pioneer DVD/TiVo for Christmas and was wondering why people thought that the Replay was better. They both have features I like and dislike and I think they are balanced. If the need arises again, I will probably stay away from ReplayTV because of this debacle.*
Streaming and better show navigation are why I think the Replay units are better. As do many people on these forums. In the end it's a matter of taste. I'm a techy and long time Replay user. The Tivo interface drives me nuts.


As for your 5504, it doesn't have the latest software if it's not showing the Connect to ReplayTV Service Now button under Setup. While watching a show, try the following:


1) 243 Zones.


2) Choose option 2 to clear the channel guide.

The unit will erase any channel data then reboot.


3) After reboot, do 243 Zones and choose option 7 to for a net connect.

Hopefully it will download the new software and grab your new

activated status. If it doesn't, then I think the CSR didn't complete your

activation.


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## toots

ReplayTV pluses:


1) Streaming (at no extra cost)

2) Show navigation

3) Guide navigation


TiVo pluses:


1) Reliability (of both the unit and the company)

2) To do list


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## rad

Quote:

_Originally posted by jleavens_
*Okay folks, here's news...


I just got this message from Mike Adell, the VP of Sales at ReplayTV, who asked me to pass it along to the forum:


"We have reactivated all units previously deactivated and will be assessing

the situation over the next few days."


So the issue still appears to be fluid.*
My 5504 was zapped 12/31 after working since 12/17. Called to see why, was told to pay up, it's now back in CC's hands. Between dealing with Dish and now DNNA these companies are driving me crazy with their indecision.


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## telamon

Quote:

_Originally posted by rad_
*My 5504 was zapped 12/31 after working since 12/17. Called to see why, was told to pay up, it's now back in CC's hands. Between dealing with Dish and now DNNA these companies are driving me crazy with their indecision.*
Save your receipt from CC showing the date of your original purchase. Whatever happens in the end will probably affect anyone who bought from 12/17 forward.


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## toots

But hasn't this been a wonderful, warm, bonding experience for all of us?


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## Runny

Quote:

_Originally posted by jleavens_
*Okay folks, here's news...


I just got this message from Mike Adell, the VP of Sales at ReplayTV, who asked me to pass it along to the forum:


"We have reactivated all units previously deactivated and will be assessing

the situation over the next few days."


So the issue still appears to be fluid.*
Does this mean that if I go to the activation website right now and enter my serial #, it will come up as activated? Because that's not what I see. Maybe I misinterpreted Mr. Adell's response...


Runny


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## repnewbie

Only naive people would return this until the very last day possible. I believe that is Jan 31st if you bought from CC. Replay with 3 yrs for $150??You better believe it!!!


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## jleavens

Yeah. I think things are complicated enough... If you return your unit, the chances of getting anything out of Replay are going to be slim.


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## melduforx

Quote:

_Originally posted by wagoss_
*Second Note: I also received a Pioneer DVD/TiVo for Christmas and was wondering why people thought that the Replay was better. They both have features I like and dislike and I think they are balanced. If the need arises again, I will probably stay away from ReplayTV because of this debacle.*
Streaming, streaming, streaming...


Also, Commercial Advance (or Show|Nav for you 55xx owners)...


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## Foxtrot-Yankee

It's not just streaming in general that's the great feature. The "killer" feature of a Replay is DVArchive, an app that Replay had nothing to do with making.


ReplayTV owes Mr. Duprey and his peers everything for finishing their box for them.


--Fox


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## Pete Rod

Quote:

_Originally posted by Foxtrot-Yankee_
*It's not just streaming in general that's the great feature. The "killer" feature of a Replay is DVArchive, an app that Replay had nothing to do with making.


ReplayTV owes Mr. Duprey and his peers everything for finishing their box for them.


--Fox*
Lets not forget "Record On Network Replay" option.


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## Diode1

OK,

Here is my suggestion to DNNA ReplayTV.

If and when this has been settled, lets just say they do the right thing

and keep those boxes activated that have been deactivated and say welcome to the ReplayTv family.

That would be a class act, in turn they could offer t-shirt sales from their

web site, "2003 ReplayTV Survivor & Family Member"

Even at $20

I'd be good for one or two 

This would cover the theme of the past few weeks & the 2003 DNNA acquisition.

It's time to move on and turn this into a positive for the longevity of the company.


With the proper steps this day forward, Replay can repair damages,

they could also offer to activate the USB port at a nominal fee to help generate some additional cash-flow

Just thinking out-loud.


----------



## tarfin

If my 5504 stays activated I would defintely throw my HT receiver business Denon's way. They're pricey but I'd definitely support the family. Having a 2nd unit sure would be nice even though I have few scheduling conflicts, it sure is nice to have a resolution.


----------



## back40

Quote:

_Originally posted by Foxtrot-Yankee_
*It's not just streaming in general that's the great feature. The "killer" feature of a Replay is DVArchive, an app that Replay had nothing to do with making.


ReplayTV owes Mr. Duprey and his peers everything for finishing their box for them.


--Fox*
I'll have to agree. DVArchive makes ReplayTV stand out over TiVo.


----------



## toots

I have to say that it really means something that the coolest part of the ReplayTV software (DVarchive) is software that ReplayTV didn't have anything to do with writing.


----------



## jleavens

Quote:

_Originally posted by toots_
*I have to say that it really means something that the coolest part of the ReplayTV software (DVarchive) is software that ReplayTV didn't have anything to do with writing.*
Gotta disagree with you, toots. As much a fan I am of DVArchive, and I am a fan, I think that the built-in streaming and remote record-setting capabilities that are in the ReplayTV units are what make ReplayTVs cool.


DVArchive is brilliant in emulating another Replay on the personal computer. But DVArchive is able to do what it does because the Replay is that powerful.


off-topic alert, off-topic alert....


----------



## ekaxel

Two questions:

1. About how many units were sold during the disputed period?

2. If replay is reactivating, what about all those units resold on ebay for $131?

OT:Welcome back Toots! Haven't seen you in a while.

Happy New Year all!


----------



## dyker

Quote:

_Originally posted by joe221_

They're not happy in NJ!

Channel 10 in NJ, article.
*Did anyone read this part of the article???


>>After NBC 10 contacted the company, they have agreed to activate all three of the units Wilson bought and not charge the fee.*


----------



## Markz2k

Maybe DNNA/ReplayTV could recoup some of the losses from this fiasco by coming up with some new features to implement in a software upgrade, and then charge for it. (A reasonable, ONE TIME fee.) Sorta like how Tivo did with their media option, or whatever it's called. Just make sure it's an OPTIONAL feature, not something you have to buy to continue to use your Replay. And don't remove any current features for those who choose not to buy an upgrade.



I can't think of anything off-hand to add that would be worth paying for, though. Maybe a status bar?  (Kidding, don't kill me) A to-do list? Would have to be somthing unique, not just copy ideas from tivo.


Of course, if they laid-off the development team, then that could be a problem.


----------



## BeefStu

Quote:

_Originally posted by dyker_

*Did anyone read this part of the article???


>>After NBC 10 contacted the company, they have agreed to activate all three of the units Wilson bought and not charge the fee.*
*
Are you kidding?


That's what all the whiners & armchair lawyers are quoting as "proof" that DNNA is legally bound to activate them, too *


----------



## j.m.

Quote:

_Originally posted by jleavens_
*Gotta disagree with you, toots. As much a fan I am of DVArchive, and I am a fan, I think that the built-in streaming and remote record-setting capabilities that are in the ReplayTV units are what make ReplayTVs cool.


DVArchive is brilliant in emulating another Replay on the personal computer. But DVArchive is able to do what it does because the Replay is that powerful.


off-topic alert, off-topic alert....*
You know, I was about to post a similar response to Foxtrot-Yankee's post earlier but decided not to since it was sort of off topic to the purpose for which jleavens created this thread. At the risk of straying things further off topic, I'll now say that I agree with jleavens. While ReplayTV didn't help code DVArchive, it is a little strong for one to say they "had nothing to do with making" it. As jleavens points out, DVArchive can only do what it does because ReplayTV provided a (semi) public HTTP interface to the ReplayTV filesystem.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by jleavens_
*I'm confused. Are you guys complaining about the conversion to lifetime service?*
No. the discussion is about, or more of our speculation about, how the internal processes at rptv worked and what would that 12/22 PR put them, should the fiasco on the $149 units turns out to be.


a couple of us argued that the 12/22/ release would give credibility to the argument that the $149 units should all have life-time services, should rptv be order to perform per the sticker and then pricing plan in place prior to 12/22.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by jleavens_
*"We have reactivated all units previously deactivated and will be assessing

the situation over the next few days."*
this is one seriously confused company ran by a very challenged mgmt team, .


----------



## Foxtrot-Yankee

 Fark just picked up the story.


--Fox


----------



## Diode1

 USA TODAY


----------



## volcs0

In a Boston area Circuit City last night. - right on the shelf was an 5508 with the big green sticker staring at me for $299 - just waiting for some unsuspecting person to pick it up. It is hard to imagine that CC hasn't removed all of these from their shelves yet.


----------



## Diode1

Quote:

_Originally posted by volcs0_
*In a Boston area Circuit City last night. - right on the shelf was an 5508 with the big green sticker staring at me for $299 - just waiting for some unsuspecting person to pick it up. It is hard to imagine that CC hasn't removed all of these from their shelves yet.*
Just maybe CC has made a determination that its not their responsibility to

change the packaging/labeling of products and the ReplayTV detailing crew has not yet made it that store?

As a legal fight, this may have been told to all stores not to change things.

If a few stores do it, then that would look bad for CC, even if they had no responsibility to do so.


----------



## bull51

The people who complain about the cost of monthly service or one time fee are not aware of the effect Replay has on their lives. I don't want to turn this in to a 'they're dumb and I'm not' thing but if I ever told my wife(the dumb one) I was paying 9.95 per mo. for the service my crawling, trembling marriage would splinter in to a million different parts. Non-techies will never understand Replay. Never. I think that Replay (Tivo) is still ahead of it's time like wireless. The service should be an inducement to TV rather than a totally different product. Broadband Reports had an interesting article about how wireless doesn't pay for itself at Starbucks. The cost of keeping track of charging customers for a wireless connect is a lot more than what they are getting for charging for it so some stores are giving it away for free to get people to come to their businesses. The cost of giving it away is about three bucks a day and the cost of charging for it is seventy dollars a day. Replay will end up at the same conclusion. How the fact that TV survives on commercials and Replay cuts out commercials will be the question. Just thinking about it gives me a headache so I think I'll go watch a little TV.


----------



## Bobcrane

Quote:

*I don't want to turn this in to a 'they're dumb and I'm not' thing but if I ever told my wife(the dumb one)...*
LoL. Glad you didn't turn it into that argument! 

Quote:

*...my crawling, trembling marriage would splinter in to a million different parts.*
I know some good marriage counselors in the Chicagoland area.


----------



## seidelhd

I'm curious to see what Replay TV would say if you purchased the unit in Boston that still had the green sticker. Obviously they already changed the policy but that doesn't change the fact that all the documentation on and inside the box say it includes 3 years of activation.


----------



## wagoss

This might create some discussion.


I still don't get it.


My ReplayTV is slow when using menus, changing channels etc, no "todo" list, slow connection with the daily call in, system not available messages, can't connect via Ethernet. BUT does have the 30 sec advance


The disadvantage to TiVo is that it only saves the last 30 minutes, but I solve that by hitting record, and I have to pay a one time $99 fee for the home media option.


With all of the problems I have experienced lately trying to get my units activated, yes I have two replays, and the other issues I have read, why do people think ReplayTV is better.


Yes I agree that the initial outlay is more, BUT I always say, you get what you pay for.


----------



## toots

Kumbaya my lord...


----------



## protopunk

I bought a ReplayTV for my wife for Christmas. I decided to purchase the DVR for her so she could better manage her reality tv show addiction.


Before purchasing, I researched TiVo and ReplayTV. I eventually decided on the ReplayTV because of the included ethernet and quick skip features.


For a few days, I kept checking various sites to see who had the 5504 in stock. On December 17th, I checked Circut City online and noticed that the price had dropped to $149.00. I checked the ReplayTV site and noticed that they had not yet changed the price there.


After a quick search, I determined that the cost was lowered because service was now extra and NOT included. I was a little hesitant to buy it at the old price, but now that it was inline with Tivo, I could not resist.


I called my local Circut City and they had 1 unit in stock.


When I got to the store the salesperson informed me that the price of the unit was dropped because service was now extra.


I paid for the ReplayTV and picked it up at the customer service desk. It then sat in my trunk until the day before christmas when I wrapped it.


When my wife opened it, the first thing I noticed was a sticker that said 80 hour recording.


80? A check of the receipt confirmed that I bought a 5504. The box had a Circut City warehouse tag that said 5504. The serial numbe ron the unit said it was a 5508.


Can you believe that? I got a 5508 for $149.00! What did I do? I returned it because it was dishonest to keep it. When I spoke to the manager, he offered to discount a 5508 for me to $219.00. I agreed. Say whatever you will, but my parents raised me well.


Circut City screwed that one up good. I wonder how many other people got a mis-labled unit from that pallet?



I bought the unit on December 17th. Our box also had a sticker that read "activation included". I know that is was sold without activation based on the price.


My wife is very happy with the ReplayTV. So am I. I don't see the purpose of trying to get free service from Replay when it's obvious that the units were sold without it. I think it's clear that most of those whining about this are selfish people trying to get something for nothing. Paying for service helps support ReplayTV so it can remain a viable alternative to TiVo. It is foolish to rip them off when the end result could very well be the end of the platform. Then what do you have?


Yeah, ReplayTV made a poor decision to roll out a price change so late in the holiday season. So what? Return it. What have you lost? Nothing.


Our society is so rife with individuals who think that they are owed something for nothing. And when they don't get what they think they deserve, they turn to attorneys.


----------



## jleavens

Quote:

_Originally posted by wagoss_
*This might create some discussion.*
How about creating it in a separate thread? Thanks. 


protopunk- Not many people out there would have done that. Glad you were able to turn your "good fortune" into something that you were comfortable with.


----------



## genearch

Quote:

_Originally posted by protopunk_
*


Our society is so rife with individuals who think that they are owed something for nothing. And when they don't get what they think they deserve, they turn to attorneys.*
Truly refreshing..


From one honest man to another.. enjoy your new Replay!


----------



## jones07

Yes it is. Regretfully there are many individuals who would think you were a fool. My hats off to your parents. I hope someday my children will honor me as well as you have yours 


I'm just about done with the whole subject 


Have a Happy New Year


----------



## Crrink

protopunk,

Please explain to me how it was "obvious" that service was not included when all parties involved in the agreement stated unequivocally that it was.

I realize the person at your CC informed you of the unbundling of service. The guy at my CC asked me what DVR's were, and then he commented that they had sure sold a lot of them that day (12/17).


Did you pay for your service before 12/22? If you did, you got to buy lifetime for $250. If you waited until after Xmas to set it up, you got the privilege of paying $50 more. That stinks, IMHO. It's not that I expect prices not to go up, but I think it's a bad business practice to raise the price of a gift by 12.5% between the time it was bought and the time it begins being used.


You mention that you think paying for service is good because it helps ReplayTV stay in business.

Do you also plan to send them monthly/quarterly/annual payments in addition to what you paid for service?

Why not?

Won't that help them stay in business?


I'm guessing you're happy paying the price that was offered to you. I understand that, and I agree with that sentiment.

That's all I want. To pay the price that was offered to me, and nothing additional. How does that make you a good guy and me a bad guy?


----------



## protopunk

Crrink,


I never said I was a good guy. Everyone has their own belief system, so good and bad can be relative. Even Al Capone, though a thief, thought he was a good guy.


I noticed that you have been a member of the AVS forum since September of 2002, therefore, it is a reasonable assumption that you are a more informed customer than most. It is also a reasonable assumption that you knew exactly what you were banking on when you purchased your unit at the discounted price.


Of course I would not send extra money to Replay. That would be ridiculous. But I will pay the cost of service, if that service is valuable to me.


Your hostility is also not appreciated. Like you, I'm entitled to my own opinion.


It is clear to me that your post is somewhat based on the fact that you know that there is some merit to my post. Perhaps you feel guilty because you are trying to get something for nothing.


If you are looking for a solution, feel free to return your ReplayTV for a refund. Then you can move on. If you like the unit, pay for the service.


----------



## tluxon

Crrink,


I haven't been able to figure out why you're so determined to have a working relationship with a company that doesn't want to provide the service you want for the price you want to pay. If both parties can't agree on the terms of a continuing relationship, what's the point of pressing the issue? Get on with life.


Tim


----------



## jameskollar

Look, we can put this whole thing to bed. Anyone who bought a 55xx box between say Dec 15 and Jan 1 gets 3yrs subscription (dates may need to be modified) period! DNNA needs to own up to their mistake and eat their mistake. There's precedent for that with the 4xxx, 5xxx interoperabilty problems they attempted to correct with the trade in program. Imagine the good will that would create. Now, at CES they need to announce the next generation, must have, standalone PVR. JMHO.


----------



## Crrink

protopunk,

I think that, based on your actions with the 5508 you were mistakenly given, you are a good guy.

I also think that, given your comments about those of us who bought units expecting the terms of that contract to be honored, you think I'm a bad guy.


I don't think I insinuated that you are not entitled to your own opinion, I merely asked you to clarify how you have reached a different conclusion than I have. I am honestly curious.


I would agree that I am a more informed customer than most. I was literally amazed when DNNA offered the refurbished RTV's with service last Summer - quite a deal, huh? I almost bit on that offer, but the price was still just a little too steep for me to try something other than TiVo.


When I saw the posts on FW about this deal I was amazed even more. I had no intention of bothering with the deal until RTV's own CSR's verified that it was legitimate.

I concluded (quite logically, I think) that if the retailer and manufacturer both guaranteed that the offer they were making was valid, that I could trust that word.


I went to CC that day fully prepared to refuse delivery of my unit if they informed me of any error on their website - you see, they hadn't taken my money yet, and therefore it would've been completely legal for them to tell me that they had made a mistake and that the actual price of the unit was $1,499.99. At that point I would've been disappointed, maybe even cranky, but I would've had them cancel my order and been on my way.

That's not what happened.

They took my money, handed me my box, we both thanked each other, and I went on my way.


You know the rest of the story.


Again, I'm not trying to be hostile or trying to suggest that you don't have a right to your opinion. I'd just like to hear you explain what I did that was wrong.

It's true, I don't believe that there is any merit in your argument, and I think I've explained why.

I would like to hear you explain your disagreement with my opinion to me.

I don't feel guilty as I have not tried to get something for nothing. I have tried to get a company to honor the terms of an agreement they freely entered into. If they entered into that agreement in error, they can ask for me to be a nice guy and let them out - they haven't asked nicely at all, now, have they?

Out of curiosity, if I paid for lifetime service and realized I didn't mean to after the return period had ended, do you think DNNA would let me out of our agreement?

I suspect not.


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by tluxon_
*Crrink,


I haven't been able to figure out why you're so determined to have a working relationship with a company that doesn't want to provide the service you want for the price you want to pay. If both parties can't agree on the terms of a continuing relationship, what's the point of pressing the issue? Get on with life.


Tim*
Well, the company did offer to provide service at a price I am willing to pay. I'm just trying to stop them from changing their minds retroactively, that's all.

We already agreed to terms of a continuing relationship - terms I'm happy with, and terms I expect to be honored.

I am upset by RTV's attempt to wring more money out of me, but I'm hoping they'll learn a valuable lesson from this - I know, RTV has made a lot of mistakes in the past, and they don't seem to have learned much, but I'm being optimistic due to the fact that they offered me such a good deal.


I've been curious about RTV since the day they came out. I did a lot of research before I bought a PVR and I chose TiVo. I like TiVo a lot - I have two of them now.

I'd like the chance to experience RTV and see if I might like it better. I'd also like to enjoy the benefits of owning both platforms. The company's offer gave me the chance to do that quite economically.


Once this issue is sorted out, I expect that my contact/relationship with the company will be basically nonexistant. It's not like agreeing to live with a person who tried to cheat you, you know? Once RTV agrees to honor the terms of our agreement, I'll use the unit and have a solid basis of comparison to the TiVo's I own.


This opportunity will help me decide which company's product I buy when I move to HDTV - some time later this year, I hope.


I won't respond to your comment about getting on with life, as I'm trying to keep these posts civil.


----------



## Kraken

Any Toledo, OH residents should respond to this. A local tv station is investigating there. Go to 13abc.com and look for BBB alert (sorry, userid can't post links yet). The media is really doing a good job picking up on this situation!


----------



## rad

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kraken_
*Any Toledo, OH residents should respond to this. A local tv station is investigating there. Go to 13abc.com and look for BBB alert (sorry, userid can't post links yet). The media is really doing a good job picking up on this situation!*
Here's the link:
http://www.13abc.com/index.cfm?Artic...SideID=&IsItm=


----------



## antnjen

Quote:

_Originally posted by Crrink_
*protopunk,

I think that, based on your actions with the 5508 you were mistakenly given, you are a good guy.

I also think that, given your comments about those of us who bought units expecting the terms of that contract to be honored, you think I'm a bad guy.


I don't think I insinuated that you are not entitled to your own opinion, I merely asked you to clarify how you have reached a different conclusion than I have. I am honestly curious.


I would agree that I am a more informed customer than most. I was literally amazed when DNNA offered the refurbished RTV's with service last Summer - quite a deal, huh? I almost bit on that offer, but the price was still just a little too steep for me to try something other than TiVo.


When I saw the posts on FW about this deal I was amazed even more. I had no intention of bothering with the deal until RTV's own CSR's verified that it was legitimate.

I concluded (quite logically, I think) that if the retailer and manufacturer both guaranteed that the offer they were making was valid, that I could trust that word.


I went to CC that day fully prepared to refuse delivery of my unit if they informed me of any error on their website - you see, they hadn't taken my money yet, and therefore it would've been completely legal for them to tell me that they had made a mistake and that the actual price of the unit was $1,499.99. At that point I would've been disappointed, maybe even cranky, but I would've had them cancel my order and been on my way.

That's not what happened.

They took my money, handed me my box, we both thanked each other, and I went on my way.


...*
Here, here, Criink!!!


Those of us who clearly made sure of the terms of the deal prior to purchase (i.e. spoke directly with employees of RTV and CC, and verified written communications from both) are getting lumped in with those who believed the deal to be bogus and/or the Fatwalleters.


All the self-righteous people on this forum blasting the likes of you and me keep trying to make this mistake seem like it was just an innocent typo on some obscure web site. Well, if they stop pontificating long enough to listen to the facts from *some* of our stories, maybe they'll see fit to put down the pitchforks.


This forum has been a great help to me on all things RTV, and I'm sure it will continue to be a great help in the future. However, I am very surprised at the reaction from many on this forum. ***Newsflash***: Thread topics are clearly indicated on the thread results page. If you don't want to hear (figuratively) people "rant" and "whine", then don't click on the link to view the thread. You have a choice. Just say, "No."


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by protopunk_

Of course I would not send extra money to Replay. That would be ridiculous. *But I will pay the cost of service*, if that service is valuable to me.
so if you were presented a report on how much it costs for rptv to provide the service and it is above and beyond what they are charging you, you will pay the extra difference?


Bear in your mind that rptv is likely lossing money right now.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by tluxon_
*If both parties can't agree on the terms of a continuing relationship, what's the point of pressing the issue?


Tim*
because you have an in-the-money contract. If anyone is allowed to back out from their contractual obligations, commerce and the society wouldn't function.


----------



## winter

Quote:

_Originally posted by protopunk_

I find it facinating that someone would take the time to post a holier than thou speech in this particular thread.


You made it perfectly clear that you think that what you did with the mislableled unit makes you a good guy and that you think your parents raised you right (according to you). And apparently anyone who is attempting to hold DNNA & the retailers to the terms that they advertised and reiterated prior to the sale is nothing more than a thief since we are, as you putting, "ripping them off". Who cares what you think? Who asked you to use *your* belief systems and pass moral judgement on others? Do you really think anyone here cares that you disagree with their choices?


protopunk wrote:
Quote:

"Like you, I'm entitled to my own opinion."


"Perhaps you feel guilty because you are trying to get something for nothing."


"I think it's clear that most of those whining about this are selfish people trying to get something for nothing. "


"Our society is so rife with individuals who think that they are owed something for nothing. And when they don't get what they think they deserve, they turn to attorneys."
jleavens started this thread with request that it contain _*no personal attacks or simple opinions*_ and yet you post crap like these gems and he says nothing - I wonder why that is?


I guess as long as you are attacking those people are trying to get Replay to do the right thing, its ok...what a joke.


----------



## civy

Crrink, Antngen, & similar viewpoints,


I agree! I would love to see what 'these' people say after their 'old' $250 lifetime service goes to 'Additional Fees Now Required' after purchase. Would they quietly pay another $299 and say 'Thank You' to replay?


As a side note, most of us would see this differently, if just once in the last 2 weeks, ReplayTV admitted & apologized for having their CSRs and bundled paperwork promise the included free 3 year activation and 99 cent/month extensions there after. But all ReplayTV does is lie & posture to minimize THEIR liabilities, with little concern for the customer or what is right.


----------



## Markz2k

One other thing. As I understand it from PU82 (I think that's the correct user name) All the Replay's that were in stock at CC and the other retailers were purchased from DNNA at the old wholesale price that includes 3 years of service, as advertised on and in the packaging. Why not simply deny CC price protection for each unit sold at $150 for which activation was not paid by the customer? (As was their right based on the terms on the box.)

*IF* it is true that the mistake was made by CC in dropping the price too early, then let them pay for it. I'd think DNNA would be afraid of pissing off their biggest retailer, but angering the consumer instead doesn't seem too intelligent. After all the consumers complain to CC and the returns, what are the chances they're going to continue to sell ReplayTV anyway?


DNNA and the retailers need to work together to come up with a solution that allows the consumers to get what they paid for - A working replay with 3 years of service, extendable to 6 years for $36.XX.


----------



## BaysideBas

Quote:

_Originally posted by millwood_
*Bear in your mind that rptv is likely lossing money right now.*
And Replay isn't alone in this. Tivo has yet to get out of the red...


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by Markz2k_
*they'd be afraid of pissing off their biggest retailer, but cheating the consumer instead doesn't seem too intelligent.*
that's why, I think, it takes so long for rptv to yet come out, for the 2nd time around, to say what the final decision would be.


For God's sake, this whole fiasco broke out almost 14 days ago. And one of the major players was silent for almost a week; flip-flop'd three times ("include service / pre-activated" -> "service contingent on price" / deactivation ->de-deactivation / "waiting for a solution next week").


rptv is in between a rock and a hard place: they don't have the financial means to pay CC if indeed CC paid the full price for those $149 units; they cannot piss off CC (tho. they tried until they got wiser and could see two steps down the road); they cannot refuse serivces to the consumers because they would sue.


indeed, no way out for rptv.


----------



## tluxon

Quote:

_Originally posted by Crrink_
*Well, the company did offer to provide service at a price I am willing to pay. I'm just trying to stop them from changing their minds retroactively, that's all.

We already agreed to terms of a continuing relationship - terms I'm happy with, and terms I expect to be honored.*
There's no question that DNNA and some of their retailers really dropped the ball on this price changing debacle, and I've been quite outspoken about how I felt regarding their lack of public response right out of the gate. I've also stated in no uncertain terms that their "best" response after the fact would be to let these errors go and cut their losses. That would've been even less harmful had they been on the ball and taken public action immediately. Their unfortunate situation was nothing but exacerbated by their lethargic response.
Quote:

*Once this issue is sorted out, I expect that my contact/relationship with the company will be basically nonexistant.*
Unfortunately, it's hard to know _what_ the nature of the service agreement with ReplayTV will entail. Your Replay will check in with the mothership every night on the average. They can roll out software "updates" at any time that have the potential to significantly change the behavior of the Replay box. Most of the changes improve the way things work but some have been known to introduce problems for some. They _do_ have a little continuing leverage over us in this regard.
Quote:

*I won't respond to your comment about getting on with life, as I'm trying to keep these posts civil.*
You're right - I apologize for that ill-placed comment. I _hate_ it when I "speak" before thinking!  I'm afraid my disappointment in DNNA has clouded my thinking.


Enjoy,


Tim


----------



## Crrink

tluxon,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.


Yeah, I do realize that my RTV will have an umbilical to the mothership, but I would expect that if they bother to keep the service going, they'll do what they have done, and what TiVo does, and do more good than harm, for the most part.


That is one of the really bothersome things about the way DVR's are set up - there's always the possibility for the parent company to significantly alter the way your unit functions. Whether it's RTV and putting ads up while you pause, or TiVo sending extra advertising your way, there's not a whole lot we can do about it.

The benefits of having a DVR make this risk worthwhile to me, but I still, way in the back of my mind, worry that someday some spam company will acquire TiVo/Replay and all I'll get on my boxes are advertisements for "The real Viagra without a Doctor's prescription!"


I don't know, things might've been different if DNNA had fallen on their sword in the beginning and apologized for the whole mess, but they didn't. They were quiet, and then tried to take the hard line, and that irritates me.

I'm not saying I definitely would've just returned my RTV if they'd been nicer, but I certainly would've been a lot more likely to than I am now.


I believe that what they're trying to do is illegal, but if they have a legal out and they use it, I won't be bitter toward them at all. I very likely won't be a customer, but at lest you guys won't have to put up with me posting here anymore if that happens 


Anyway, I'm rambling OT, so I'll stop now.


----------



## melduforx

Quote:

_Originally posted by civy_
*I agree! I would love to see what 'these' people say after their 'old' $250 lifetime service goes to 'Additional Fees Now Required' after purchase. Would they quietly pay another $299 and say 'Thank You' to replay?*
Civy,


I paid my lifetime. Three times for three units. People who bought the $149 units paid nothing for the lifetime.


So, if Replay says, "pay another $299" I can show them my receipt and not worry about it. I don't rely on pricing mistakes to get the stuff I own.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by melduforx_
*Civy,


I paid my lifetime. Three times for three units. People who bought the $149 units paid nothing for the lifetime.*


so you got the best deal available then, and the $149ers got the best deal available now. their paying less doesn't in any way shape or form makes them "lesser" rptv customers. They have the same rights as you do.

Quote:

_Originally posted by melduforx_
*So, if Replay says, "pay another $299" I can show them my receipt and not worry about it. I don't rely on pricing mistakes to get the stuff I own.*
you can do that because the contract between you and rptv is legally binding. The same contract between the $149ers and rptv is equally binding. so they just have as much rights to refuse rptv's demands for additional payment, as you do.


----------



## Markz2k

This comment to the article posted at http://www.gripe2ed.com/scoop/story/...2/24/14241/702 is kind of interesting:

*i contacted: John Muscari +1-212-388-1400 ReplayTV's media/pr guy he said, "a press release will go out next wk and although I won't say in writing I can say the consumer will be pleased"*


----------



## GizmoZilla

Wow, out of all the responses on both sides, this reply sure does read like sour grapes.


Quote:

_Originally posted by melduforx_
*Civy,


I paid my lifetime. Three times for three units. People who bought the $149 units paid nothing for the lifetime.


So, if Replay says, "pay another $299" I can show them my receipt and not worry about it. I don't rely on pricing mistakes to get the stuff I own.*


----------



## jones07

I felt the same way when 6 house down, section 8 people move into the same neighborhood for 1/8 the cost I pay.


----------



## zeromorph

Sorry if this is off topic, it's gotten confusing as to what this thread is really about anymore.


I've had a slightly different experience in the puchase of my first replay and I think it might shed some insight as to the communication problems that are long running.


I did not purchase a 5504 after 12/17. I did a lot of research on the net and found Replay to be a bit too expensive compared to Tivo - though I really liked the features better. So I went to buy a Tivo on 12/12 from Circuit. When I got there I found that they had a 5080 for only $50 more than a Tivo series 2. That was all I needed to know so I switched back to the Replay. The thing that got me in the store was the activation. The price tag on the shelf said "3 years Activation included", the brochure for Replay next to it said $12.95 a month, and the sticker on the box said $9.95 a month. I spoke with 4 diffrerent sales reps and none of them could tell me how much (if anything) per month I'd have to pay. Finally with a fifth salesman he called another store and they didn't know - but suggested he call Replay. So he did and Replay told him it would be $12.95 a month. Fine great I'll take it. I got it home, hooked it up and activated it for... $9.95 a month.


After speaking with no less than 7 people and reading 3 different price tags - no one could answer the seemingly simple question of - how much is this?


I'm not surprised that just a week later all hell broke loose. Who's to blame? According to this thread it might be DNNA or Circuit City or me. I think it's probobly a little bit of all 3. I just wanted to get a present for my wife for christmas. I get wrong information all the time from places like CC. If I had a quarter for everytime... well you get the point. Stuff happens. Life goes on.


----------



## toots

That really is the crux of the problem. No one really knows.


Back before SB started charging subscription fees on the 4500s, I had a friend tell me he wasn't considering ReplayTV, because some store guy told him he'd have to pay a subscription cost, which up to that point, was clearly false.


There's a lot of disinformation out there in the best of cases. Changing from one plan to the other (subscription vs bundled) three times in 2 years; twice in one year - just adds to the confusion.


----------



## protopunk

Crrink and others:



I agree with you that ReplayTV, the retailers, or some sort of hired merchandisers made a huge mistake.


I also agree with you that if you called replay before purchasing, and they confirmed the units came with activiation, then you are absolutely right. Replay should make good on its promises.


Crrink, if this is actually what happened to you, I agree 100%.


I know there exists a bunch of people out there who bought a Replay with the intention of profiting from an error.


It is those folks who are " bad".


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by protopunk_
*It is those folks who are " bad".*
the point is that we shouldn't stereotype others. They are people who try to profit from these. But that doesn't mean every and each one of us is trying to profit from these.


However, putting that aside, i don't think there is a legal argument from not to providing services to those who are trying to profit. being morally correct has no bearing on being legally correct, tho. we wish they are one and the same.


----------



## jleavens

There are very few people in this forum who are completely irrational (even icecow makes sense some times  ). And even the strongest opinions here are pretty capable of empathy...

Quote:

I know there exists a bunch of people out there who bought a Replay with the intention of profiting from an error.
The Replays that are on eBay I think are a good example of this, personally... This is the "I should make $200 on Replay's error" crowd.


----------



## tluxon

Quote:

_Originally posted by protopunk_
*...I know there exists a bunch of people out there who bought a Replay with the intention of profiting from an error.


It is those folks who are " bad".*
You mean like all those fatwalleters who are asking what "lie" they need to tell Replay to get their unit re-activated? Yes, this is the part that leaves the bad taste in my mouth.


Those who indeed asked multiple sources - especially ReplayTV - deserve much better treatment. Unfortunately, for DNNA to do the most honorable thing, many "bad" folks will also be _temporarily_ enriched. These are the ones who are going to be a little tougher to help when they come here seeking help.


Tim


----------



## RChobby

I was cautious about this deal until I called ReplayTV themselves on Dec. 18. I called the customer support line (India) and asked if the 3y activation with the 5504 replaytv units for $149 was for real. They said that yes for the units at Circuit City, there was a pre-christmas promotion with 3y activation included. They said if you got a box with the green sticker, you were good to go. That induced me to drive over one hour each way to buy one from the only CC in my state that still had them in stock (direct delivery was not available). At CC all I did was go up to the desk and pick up the package, nobody came up to tell me activation was not included. The CC website said 3y activation was ncluded when I placed the order. I'm surprised some of you think I did not pay for the activation, I really did try to get all the the facts before I made the purchase and the terribly long drive. If ReplayTV reps themselves were saying activation was included, what more research can the customer do???


----------



## JohnFR

Don't know if this is related to the debacle under discussion, but I tried to buy a 40 hr today, and all 3 Circuit City stores in my area are sold out. I also stopped by one of the larger Radio Shack stores and the sales guy told me "we don't sell them anymore." (I don't really believe that -- figure he was ignorant or just out-of-stock).


I'm sort of glad I didn't find one. I had it my mind that the service was $10 a month but I see it's gone up to $13. Given that, I think I'll get a refurb with lifetime off the website. Seems like the economical way to go.


----------



## civy

I had the same questions over the last 2 weeks. I called ReplayTV 2 weeks ago, they confirmed my used and new units were activated (think something like 250+150). I even registered with ReplayTV. But these simple facts do not sway the people who appearantly paid more for their units.


Today ReplayTV reps said I am indeed activated again, but this is after they arbitrarily deactivated my units earlier in the week. I asked for email confirmation on the specific terms of my activation. They original said they would send it this morning. After calling back every ~ 2 hours, total of 4 calls, still no email. The only thing that happens is they ask for more 'information', and appear VERY reluctant to provide anything in writing.


This does NOT inspire any trust or confidence in ReplayTV. ...My guess is their lawyers are covering posteriors/ running the show, in preparation for inevitable lawsuits & investigations. Hope everyone keeps good records/ documentation and filed appropriate complaints with AG, etc. Don't be lulled by current reversals!!!


----------



## Charms

Quote:

_Originally posted by jleavens *POST#1 in this thread*_
*This is it. Post factual information here, no personal attacks or simple opinions.*
Quote:

_Originally posted by protopunk *POSTS#74, #79 & #103 in this thread*_

*I got a 5508 for $149.00! What did I do? I returned it because it was dishonest to keep it....


my parents raised me well. ...


most of those whining about this are selfish people trying to get something for nothing. ...


It is foolish to rip them off ...


Our society is so rife with individuals who think that they are owed something for nothing. And when they don't get what they think they deserve, they turn to attorneys.


I'm entitled to my own opinion.


Perhaps you feel guilty because you are trying to get something for nothing.


I know there exists a bunch of people out there who bought a Replay with the intention of profiting from an error.


It is those folks who are " bad".*
I guess all of those things you state are to be considered "factual information" and not "personal attacks or simple opinions"


It's nice to see that you paid such close attention to _jleavens'_ post that started this thread.


HAND


----------



## Runny

At the very least, we need to hear something from DNNA by the 15th because Radio Shack's return policy is only 30 days. Knowing that DNNA has reactivated all previously deactivated units, if they keep that activation beyond the 30 day return window and then decide to deactivate them yet again, there is no recourse at all for the consumer. The line "return it if you don't want to pay the activation fee" will no longer work. I suspect, as Justin's post alluded to, that we'll hear something next week.


We'll see...


Runny


----------



## ekaxel

I buy and resell a lot of stuff on ebay - yes, to make a profit! I think thats what it is all about.

No, I didn't buy any replays. I was out of town skiing and missed the whole thing.

Making a profit on ebay is not a sin. Some people just don't know what they have and give it away.

However, whin something doesn't go right, and I have to eat some merchandise, I cheerfully refund a customer's money and take my lumps.


----------



## melduforx

Quote:

_Originally posted by millwood_
*so you got the best deal available then, and the $149ers got the best deal available now.*
What you got wasn't a "deal", it was a pricing error.


So look, this is wayyy off topic, and a moderator can delete it, but here goes...


Every response to one of my SNAFU posts has read something like, "You're just angry because you didn't get the good deal like we did."


Guess what, I'm not.


The point I keep trying to make is that I'd glad pay what I paid or even more to get this technology. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy this stuff, so I'm really not sure why people get so upset over it. I buy it because I like the stuff. It's worth $500 to me. It's worth twice that much to me.


It looks as if, from the snippets that have been released, activation is going to be enabled on all of these units. Everybody should calm down. I vow to not post anymore to this thread. (I can already hear the cheering...)


Now back to my paused Fiesta Bowl game.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by melduforx_
*What you got wasn't a "deal", it was a pricing error.*
not according to rptv's csrs; nor their website; nor the retailers; nor the product packaging; nor the letter inside of the product; etc., etc.


Did you do as much due diligence when you paid 499 for yours? how did you know that it wasn't a pricing error then? How did you know that it shouldn't have been priced at 4990?


giving your commitment to pay rptv's cost of providing the services, they may very well take you on that offer, .


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by zeromorph_
*Sorry if this is off topic, it's gotten confusing as to what this thread is really about anymore.


I've had a slightly different experience in the puchase of my first replay and I think it might shed some insight as to the communication problems that are long running.


I did not purchase a 5504 after 12/17. I did a lot of research on the net and found Replay to be a bit too expensive compared to Tivo - though I really liked the features better. So I went to buy a Tivo on 12/12 from Circuit. When I got there I found that they had a 5080 for only $50 more than a Tivo series 2. That was all I needed to know so I switched back to the Replay. The thing that got me in the store was the activation. The price tag on the shelf said "3 years Activation included", the brochure for Replay next to it said $12.95 a month, and the sticker on the box said $9.95 a month. I spoke with 4 diffrerent sales reps and none of them could tell me how much (if anything) per month I'd have to pay. Finally with a fifth salesman he called another store and they didn't know - but suggested he call Replay. So he did and Replay told him it would be $12.95 a month. Fine great I'll take it. I got it home, hooked it up and activated it for... $9.95 a month.


After speaking with no less than 7 people and reading 3 different price tags - no one could answer the seemingly simple question of - how much is this?


I'm not surprised that just a week later all hell broke loose. Who's to blame? According to this thread it might be DNNA or Circuit City or me. I think it's probobly a little bit of all 3. I just wanted to get a present for my wife for christmas. I get wrong information all the time from places like CC. If I had a quarter for everytime... well you get the point. Stuff happens. Life goes on.*
Why on earth would you think that you deserve any blame in all this?

I think that even the RTV users who call me a thief would agree that you tried your best to find the answer to your question.


----------



## zeromorph

Quote:

_Originally posted by Crrink_
*Why on earth would you think that you deserve any blame in all this?

I think that even the RTV users who call me a thief would agree that you tried your best to find the answer to your question.*
Some people may think I should share the blame - I know because that's one of the biggest accusations in this thread. Accusations of people being too naive or not doing enough research before buying - not knowing that a Replay with 3 years activation would have been worth more.


Where is the line? Would it have been enough for me to go in and just pick one of the signs that had the activation price? How many people do I need to talk to? How much research on the internet do I have to do before I've done my part? I just wanted a gift for my wife - so why shouldn't I be able to go into a Circuit City having never even heard of Replay TV and have a knowledgable employee can introduce me to a whole new amazing technology called a "PVR"?

Am I expecting too much of the employees of Circuit City to know all of the contract details of all of their equipment including any last minute changes the parent companies decide to make during the busiest time of year, especially considering 1/3 of the employees are only working there for the duration of the Holidays? Or do I just blame the parent company for seeing their Holiday sales tank and make a quick last minute decision to boost sales?


I have read blame falling on everyone in this forum, from the consumer to company. Everyone wants to point fingers and find the exact point of failure. Yea, mistakes were made but they were SIMPLE mistakes. I didn't do enough research, Circuit City didn't inform their employees well enough and someone at Replay forgot there were stickers on the boxes! SIMPLE.


I know, it sucks, it really does. It's a Holiday bummer. No one is trapped here though. Regardless of who did what wrong there is an out still and if people are that worried they should take that out and return the units. What have people really lost here? Lost out on a chance of what appeared to be a really good deal? Like I said, Life goes on.


----------



## Charms

For those who aren't following the FW thread, there's a link that people here might find interesting:

http://www.classcounsel.com/ 

Quote:

Welcome to Green & Jigarjian LLP - National Class Action Attorneys


We represent consumers and investors in class actions and complex litigation throughout the United States.
Halfway down the page:

Quote:

ReplayTV - Green & Jigarjian is investigating claims that ReplayTV represented that its new model receivers included three years of service in the purchase price of $149, then canceled the service claiming it was a mistake. If you purchased a 5500 Series Digital Video Recorder (DVR) distributed by ReplayTV and you are unhappy with the service, please contact us.
Let the personal attacks & simple opinions continue...


----------



## RChobby

Just pray that lawyers don't get involved. If they do, we are all screwed.


----------



## jleavens

At this point, I realize that there's no way I can just tell people to stop talking about this...


As long as it stays in this thread and is not personal or flaming, whatever.... knock yourself out.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by RChobby_
*Just pray that lawyers don't get involved. If they do, we are all screwed.*
there isn't much we can do to stop that. However, rptv still has a chance but it is looking dimmer and dimmer by the minute.


----------



## Diode1

Quote:

_Originally posted by Charms_
*For those who aren't following the FW thread, there's a link that people here might find interesting:
http://www.classcounsel.com/ 

Halfway down the page:
*
And to be fair to the FW community:

The poster with this link said:

*The vultures are looking into this. Even bought a paid result on Google.*


----------



## beatwerx

maybe Replay will get there head$ out there a$$E$ now.


----------



## wagoss

Actually DNNA did not automatically reactivate all the units.


My unit was activated on Dec 16th or 17th and when I received the unit, it worked like a charm (although it never said it was registered). The last update was on 12/30/03. I had tried approx. 15 times over the next few days to manually connect to ReplayTV, nothing happened. I finally called them yesterday and they said, hmmmm, your account looks ok. Just keep trying. Thirty minutes later I connect and the unit is registered.


My guess was that they deactivated the unit and never bothered to let me know.


Even though I called them before I placed my order and was told that they activated my unit, they still felt that they had the right to deactivate it.


And NO, I didn't not think anything was out of the ordinary here, I was just buying my son a Christmas gift.


----------



## BeefStu

Quote:

_Originally posted by beatwerx_
*maybe Replay will get there head$ out there a$$E$ now.*
Thanks for your well thought out and valuable contribution to these threads.


Ah, I can still remember when I had *my* first beer...


----------



## BeefStu

Quote:

_Originally posted by Diode1_
*And to be fair to the FW community:

The poster with this link said:


The vultures are looking into this. Even bought a paid result on Google.*
Sweet. I can click through that link at least 10 times per minute just while I'm sitting here watching TV. Maybe I'll even write a Perl script to do it for me...


----------



## GizmoZilla

That you think Google is that stupid says a lot. 


Ahh, that first beer...


----------



## Thalydimide

Let's all have a beer and relax a little!


----------



## tarfin

My 5504 was purchased on the 17th and the grace period says it has expired. Time to call CS and see what the real scoop is.


----------



## telamon

I was looking at the Replay activation FAQ and I noticed they've changed the grace period for new units from 3 days to 10 days. Nice to see they are listening to the input from this forum.


----------



## repnewbie

A lot of haters and bitter folks in this thread. I guess i would too if i paid damn nearly $500 for a unit with service and some punks paid $150 with service for the same box. Get over it!! Some you win, some you lose. You are always welcome to become a FW member. As they say, "membership has its privileges"! Enjoying my $150 activated ReplayTV!!


----------



## jones07

Rub it in why don't ya 


There's a "Nice" place in H#LL for you FW members.........You will see. 


Enjoy your RPTV it will change the way you watch TV. If you have any


questions about how it works stop back in


----------



## oldnacl

I called Replay support yesterday and spoke with a lovely woman in Waco (I think - not India, anyway), commiserated over the problems both CSRs and customers were having this past week, and told her my ReplayTV purchased Dec 17 and connected Dec 21 was showing grace period expired. After waiting some time on hold, she told me it was activated. I checked off and on for the rest of the day and again this morning and still couldn't connect, even using 243-ReplayZones. Finally I used 382-ReplayZones, went through the setup and I'm now showing activated. I don't know if this will last or not, but regardless, my experience with ReplayTV CSR was most satisfactory. Anyway, if you've been told your unit is activated yet it won't connect, it might be worthwhile to run 382-ReplayZones.


----------



## Grosvenor

Quote:

_Originally posted by oldnacl_
*I called Replay support yesterday and spoke with a lovely woman in Waco*
I had the same experience. But mine was a nice guy in Texas. I didn't ask what town. It was kinda funny. His accent was as thick as the Indian people's. Maybe thicker. I had to keep asking him to repeat himself. I'm more used to an Indian accent than a drawl 


He activated the box I gave my parents. I gave him some internet advice. It was a nice conversation.


Maybe DNNA has decided to do the legal thing (notice I did not say "right" or "moral" thing) and activate them. I hope so. Nothing like giving your parents a Christmas present that doesn't work.


I feel bad for the reVue guy. I hope he did not return his.


Dan


----------



## RamblinWreck

Are the RS 5040's also being activated, or is it just the 5504's ? I did a quick search and didn't see anything distinction between the two units.


Thanks !


----------



## jones07

Both are being activated. If they will stay that way, we will found out next week


Just for personal entertainment, I would like to see DNNA grow a pair. And turn them back off.........Just to see FW explode in one big BOOM


----------



## FtLaud222

Hi - I haven't followed the forum for a few days, as I was a way for New Years, but just notice the question about the 5040. I was deactivated on Dec 29th and didn't call Replay, as I figured I would deal with it after the Holiday (I needed a break from it all). When I returned home today, I turned on the Replay and it was up and running and now says "One Time Fee Paid". For everyone with the 5040, I hope this is encouraging news. I hope everything works out for other models as well - and Happy New Year to ALL !!!


----------



## RustyUL

Hi all. In the past few days I have decided to purchase a DVR, probably a Replay TV model. I was wondering if Replay will still honor the activation of units clearly marked as such, still on sale at Circuit City. Obviously, $150 for a 3-year (or lifetime) is a great deal. Do you think they will end up honoring the commitment?


----------



## GooberedUp

Quote:

_Originally posted by jones07_
*Both are being activated. If they will stay that way, we will found out next week


Just for personal entertainment, I would like to see DNNA grow a pair. And turn them back off.........Just to see FW explode in one big BOOM

 *
You really are bitter, aren't you!?


At any rate, it's clear that DNNA will lose in one way or another, regardless of the path they choose. It's up to them to decide in what manner they would like to spend their money. It's really not a matter of growing a pair, it's more a matter of economic sensibility.


Being vindictive (like you) won't really buy them anything tangible. Maybe a little self-satisfaction at some management level, but that's about it.


----------



## jones07

Not bitter, just in need of some entertainment. And what would be more entertaining then reading the posts of thousands of FW'ers when they see a great deal go down the drain


----------



## allaboutmojo

I have a 5504 model. I notced a few people stating that their units indicate "activated" or "one time fee paid". I don;t see this anywhere on my unit although it is working???


Where woudl I find this on a 5504? I looked under system, etc and it shows "registered" but nothing about activated or grace period, etc.



Thanks


----------



## jconawa

Replay should go ask Jaguar what happened when negative reports surfaced on the internet about the x-type and Jaguar initially tried to ignore it. If Replay continues to ignore its customers they will pay a heavy price. Its now making mainstream news. Power to the internet!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3858754/


----------



## jones07

The same old azz AP wire story that's been making the rounds for 4 days. Old old old old news dude.


And Jaguar did not mis-price a $80K Jag for $1000. Believe me, if they did you would not be keeping that car either.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by jones07_
*Believe me, if they did you would not be keeping that car either.*
but how do we know that? I know of one transaction where a major long distance carrier did not put resale restrictions into a contract with a customer and that customer turned around and set up a business that resold those long distance capacities.


there were major discussions between the two companies and threats of litigation but the long distance carrier ended up backing down.


----------



## liunam

Quote:

_Originally posted by jones07_
*

And Jaguar did not mis-price a $80K Jag for $1000. Believe me, if they did you would not be keeping that car either.*
Wrong analogy. It's more like Jaguar decides that the steering wheel is no longer part of the base model and drops the price from 80,000 to 50,000. They did not pull out their old models from the dealers though that still said that the steering wheel was included in the base price. Then, they turn around and tell customers who bought the car that they need to pay 20,000 more for the steering wheel or return the car to the dealership....


I really hate these car-computer anlogies


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by liunam_
*return the car to the dealership....*
a little correction: Jaquar would have said: "Mr. liunam, you can either pay us or work it out with your dealer."


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by RustyUL_
*Hi all. In the past few days I have decided to purchase a DVR, probably a Replay TV model. I was wondering if Replay will still honor the activation of units clearly marked as such, still on sale at Circuit City. Obviously, $150 for a 3-year (or lifetime) is a great deal. Do you think they will end up honoring the commitment?*
Well, technically there shouldn't be any units out there that still have the green sticker that promises 3 years of service.

ReplayTV and most of the retailers have made it clear that the units no longer come bundled with service.


That being said, I still read reports here and on FW daily of people walking into CC, RS and CUSA and finding units and signage still indicating that service is included at the new low price.


One guy on FW bought a new unit a day or two ago intending to buy service for it. When he opened it up he saw that the unit had been activated on 12/18, so basically he bought an open box item that was sold as new. He's not too angry because he'll likely get free service for this one, but what are the odds of getting a returned unit?


Anyway, I guess I'm saying that there is a chance that you could find a unit that would fly under the radar and be activated when all the rest of ours are, but since you know that's not what RTV and the retailers are meaning to sell, you have to decide whether or not you want to take advantage of their gross incompetence.


----------



## roddogii

I had three friends this weekend, who after I told the whole story to, went and found three units at compusa's and rs's. The compusa's still had boxes with the green stickers and still had signage up stating the incorrect. Well, they all bought the units, returned home and connected and found all the boxes were activated. They did mention that the compusa's had new shipments with purple stickers (i believe) that mentioned activation was not included -- so I'm assuming the retailers have gotten new shipments and my friends lucked out on finding a few old stock.


----------



## GAM

Don't want to jump to conclusions, but my 5508, bought 12/17 from CC for $299, registered 12/27, had been counting down the 10 day trial until today. It now shows activated with one time payment. I only called once on 12/31 and got the standard "you had to pay $499+ to get free activation."


I'm assuming they could have just reset the 10 day trial clock if they were concerned about complaints before a decision was announced (I had two days left.) Are they starting to implement some unannounced decision? Are they just confused? I don't know, but I've done nothing special to merit this. But I'll take it, and bet some others will find activation this weekend.


----------



## tedkunich

My cousin just bought a 5504 Replay - unopened box off of ebay. The seller says that the unit comes with a 3yr activation and gave the serial number of the unit for verification. Is there a way to know if this was one of the units that DNNA are reniging the activation on?


Unit S/N : G3MA0216072



Thanks


Ted


----------



## chain777

You can go here to check the status of activation, but you need the service activation key, not the serial number.


BIG YMMV on this one.


edited to fix link


----------



## jameskollar

Look everybody, lets do the math.


ReplayTV has about 100000 units of 4xxx and above out there. They've been selling them for about two years. That means they are selling about 50,000 units per year (for this example I''ll exclude increased sales) or about 4000 units per month. Problem occurred in Mid December of last year. Using above, at max, there were 2000 units sold at the wrong price. But for arguments sake, lets say 4000 units were sold at wrong price.


Sooo...., their mistake cost them 4000 X $300 which is 1.2 million dollars in unrealized revenue. However, they did make some money on the units themselves which offsets the lost. Also, they had unrealized sales as that there were many units purhcased that would not have been purchased otherwise. They already have the infrastructure in place to support servicing these units so that is a wash.


All in all, this was probably a $600,000 mistake. Personally, I think they should just eat it, write it off on their taxes, and activate any 5504 purchased between Dec. 15th and Jan 1. I also predict this is exactly what they will do. End of story.


BTW: Seahawks suck!


----------



## Cubfan

Quote:

_Originally posted by jameskollar_
*BTW: Seahawks suck!*
Time to hit that "jump to live button," as the Seahawks are now toast... much as I hate the cheeseheads who beat them.


----------



## liunam

Mine says activated too.... Bought it on the 17th but did not activate until the 30th (was on vacation and did not have an Ethernet cable to the living room yet)....


I raised h*ll (to no avail) with their customer service reps and escalation team when I learned last week that I had to pay for activation after all the crawling and drilling I did to get that Ethernet cable in place....


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by jameskollar_
*Look everybody, lets do the math.*
we simply don't know how much inventory there is (or was) in the retail chain and at what velocity those things are selling. However, we can do a quick estimate.


Tivo sold about $47 million worth of hardware alone in the last nine month through Oct, 2003, vs. a hardware cost of $48 million. so they broke even and I guess RPTV is about the same if not worse.


assume on average $200 per unit, that translates into 235,000 units over 9 months or 26,000 per month. retailers usually keep 2-3 months supply on hand so that means 50-75,000 units in the retail chain for Tivo.


what do you think RPTV's market share is vs. Tivo? maybe a little smaller. so let's say that rptv has a 1/3 of the market and tivo 2/3 of the market. so retail inventory for rptv, before the holiday season, is 30-40,000. and retailers tend to stock up before the holidays but let's not factor that in.


the retailers pretty much sold out those units, during the fiasco, right? so that means 30,000 units * $200/unit - 40,000 units *$200/unit or about 6 million - 8 million of revenue and approximately the same in hardware cost alone.


and if the retailers doubled up on their inventories of rptv, that translate into 12-16 million of costs for rptv on the hardware.


cost of providing services to those units? well, tivo's gross margin on the service revenue is about 50%. or 50% * $13 = $6 a month. or about $250 thousand dollars a month, and $3 million a year for at least three years -> $10 million. More if those units are converted into life-time subscription: at a convervative 10% discount rate, that's $30 million present value for th life-time subscription to those units.


total figure: about $20 million (12+10) - $45 million (16+30).


Can they stuff it? I don't know. Given that they just had a mass lay-off and were sold out of bankruptcy, I doubt rptv itself has that much money.


D&M does about $400 million revenue in 6 months ended 9/03, and has EBITDA (a proxy for cash earnings) of $11 million and negative earnings. their reportings didn't include a balance sheet so we don't know how much cash they had.


BTW, I checked D&M's old press releases on ReplayTV. They paid $36 million for replaytv/rio. so essentially, that price has gone up 50 - 100% if you factor in the losses from this fiasco. or half to one year's of the parent's cash earnings.


----------



## shaft103

well I bought my ReplayTV on December 29th and it did have the sticker on it that said 3 years of service was included. I knew though that they had changed their pricing policy and I was prepared to pay 12.95 a month for the service if I decided to keep it.


I did a net connect today to just update my channel guide and all that and low and behold when it got done my box was fully activated and it said one time fee paid. I'm assuming replay must be activating all boxes that were bought and activated in a certain window.


----------



## ekaxel

I note that there are still new RTV 5504's on ebay for considerably less than $149. If these were purchase in December on spec for resale, I wonder if they would be activated?


----------



## Thalydimide

Quote:

_Originally posted by millwood_
*


what do you think RPTV's market share is vs. Tivo? maybe a little smaller. so let's say that rptv has a 1/3 of the market and tivo 2/3 of the market. so retail inventory for rptv, before the holiday season, is 30-40,000. and retailers tend to stock up before the holidays but let's not factor that in.


the retailers pretty much sold out those units, during the fiasco, right? so that means 30,000 units * $200/unit - 40,000 units *$200/unit or about 6 million - 8 million of revenue and approximately the same in hardware cost alone.


and if the retailers doubled up on their inventories of rptv, that translate into 12-16 million of costs for rptv on the hardware.


total figure: about $20 million (12+10) - $45 million (16+30).


Can they stuff it? I don't know. Given that they just had a mass lay-off and were sold out of bankruptcy, I doubt rptv itself has that much money.

.*


I would tend to think that your figures are wildly optimistic concerning the number of units instock and the number sold. The one I bought had been gathering dust at the local Radio Shack since last May. That's seven months. I do not think they would have ordered more stock for the holidays when old inventory was not moving. I do not think there were large numbers of units in stock at the retailers either.


----------



## jameskollar

I stand by my numbers. Tivo signed up ~60000 new standalone users in the past quarter. (They did much better with DirectTV). That's 20000 units per month. As far as I know, ReplayTV is selling at 10% of Tivos standalone sales rate (2000 per month). Finally, I added a large fudge factor, 100% more for Replay to get to 4000 units. Finally, this fiasco ocurred in the final month of the year resulting in a maximum downside of 4000 units. Personally, I think it was much lower than that.


BTW: Take a look at this...

DNNA presentation 


Edit: The 60000 number was a 170% increase for Tivo over the same period last year. I don't think replayTV had nearly that success.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by jameskollar_
*Finally, this fiasco ocurred in the final month of the year resulting in a maximum downside of 4000 units. Personally, I think it was much lower than that.*
let's say that the 4000 unit figure is correct. CC has about 620 stores and Compusa has 200 stores so between the two of them there are 800 stores. That translates into about 5 units per store on average.


That's assuming that everybody else, including amazon.com, circuitcity.com, compusa.com techdepot.com and RadioShack stores, sold exactly nothing during the whole fiasco.


Does that sound reasonable?


----------



## heathriel

Well, Amazon.com and Techdepot *did* cancel all orders at the $149.99 price, so there *were* no sales there (or very very few). CompUSA only sold them for in-store pickup, so there were no compusa.com sales either. Circuitcity.com also cancelled orders, but let more through than amazon (still not a high number).


As far as the other stores, of the 10 Radio Shacks within a 10 mile radius of my house, only 2 ever actually had any Replays in stock (ever, not just recently) and they only had 2 and 3 (one of each being demo units.) Not all CompUSAs carried them, but my local store got 6 in when they started selling them in September and never got any more in stock. (I was doing Demo Days). Tweeter/Magnolia/Frys stores got between 3 and 5 in stock per store, with no more than 20 sitting in the warehouse for an entire region at any time. One of each of those 3 was a demo unit. No one has mentioned anything at all about getting cheap ones from Tweeter, so I'll assume they never lowered *their* price, or no one thought to go there and check.


So...


I think the number was realistically much less than 4000, but most certainly not more than that.


----------



## millwood

so let's do a quick math exercise here.


Combined, there are 600 CC stores and 200 Compusa stores. There are 7200 radioshack stores and let's forget about the rest.


How many units on average do you think CC/Compusa sold? I think 5 for CC and 3 for Compusa doesn't seem unreasonable. and let's say that on average RadioShack sold 1 per store. That works out to be 600x5+200x3+7200x1=10,000, give or take a few.


my observation was that my CC sold out, and when I was at my Compusa last weekend, they had no green sticker boxes left but did have 5 units with purple stickers. Of the three RS stores (this was before 12/22), one had three units left, and one with a demo and one sold out. So there stock left got to be somewhere between 3 and 1.


The point of this exercise is that

a) you cannot just look at retail velocity to estimate how much has gone out: inventory is what matters in this kind of situations. and also

b) you cannot treat the chrismas shopping season as the rest of the year: US retalers do anywhere between 75 - 90% of all their business between ThanksGiving and Christmas / New Year.


If they could, I am sure they would have preferred to be out of the retail business betwen Jan - October.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by heathriel_
*Well, Amazon.com and Techdepot *did* cancel all orders at the $149.99 price, so there *were* no sales there (or very very few).*
But I did read stores about people getting their techdepot units at the $149 price point.

Quote:

_Originally posted by heathriel_
*Circuitcity.com also cancelled orders, but let more through than amazon (still not a high number).*
If amazon had cancelled "all orders at the $149.99 price", they couldn't have let through any units, right?


----------



## heathriel

"or very very few".


----------



## dyker

I wonder if DNNA wishes they could "replay" the last month?


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by dyker_
*I wonder if DNNA wishes they could "replay" the last month?*
I am pretty sure they do, 


except that they have wait for the release of ReplayTV 9053 for that feature.


----------



## jameskollar

Millwood,


With all due respect, I have to agree with Heathreal. The numbers are probably pretty close. One last example. In the month of July (according to market research from DNNA as povided in link from my previous post), there were ~26000 Ipods of all models sold in July of 2003 through all of their distribution channels which is much larger than that for ReplayTV and Tivo. Using your example, that means that each CC and Compusa sold 30 units per store with no one else selling any.


My guess, at most these two channels would have had a sell rate of 5 per store per month. My point is that low unit sales per outlet on high ticket items is not unreasonable.


Regards


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by jameskollar_
*there were ~26000 Ipods of all models sold in July of 2003 through all of their distribution channels which is much larger than that for ReplayTV and Tivo. Using your example, that means that each CC and Compusa sold 30 units per store with no one else selling any.


Regards*
But that's a very unreasonable assumption. Ipods are widely distributed, through Amazon, BB, and Apple's own store to name a few.


So when you assume nobody other than CC/ CUSA sold the Ipod, you made the wrong assumption.


Here with ReplayTV, the three major retailers, during this fiasco, are CC, CUSA and RS. In this case, you can, and probably have to, make the assumption that nobody else sold any.


To relax it a little, if others sold additional units, the number would then go UP, not down, from our estimates.


----------



## Grosvenor

I bought a total of three. I ordered one for my parents over the internet. After an hour's thought decided to get one for myself too. I picked it up at CC on 12/17. I got the last in the store. On 12/22 I had not heard from the internet store so I bought one at Magnolia for my parents. I had already activated the one from CC in my name. I beta tested on myself.


Mine was activated 12/17 and always worked. The one that is now my parents I activated on 12/22 and was disconnected 12/25 (Merrry Christmas  ) In fairness it might have been turned off any time between 12/22 and 12/25 since it was wrapped and not connected.


The 12/25 connection took 4 hours fo almost constant reconnects over their phone line, BTW. Not an impressive OOB experience for a technophobe.


I finally got the first one I ordered. I decided to give it to a friend. Well, sell it at cost and eat the shipping. I set it up today and after several calls finally talked to Waco. The guy I talked to was simply fantastic. Magnificent customer service skills. I'm going to write a note to S2G about him.


I sent him a copy of the receipt and he activated the last one. Tomorrow it gets shipped to my friend.


I might have got better service because I asked the first rep to verify the policy in writing. That was when the attitude changed. I did mention that I would be filing a complaint with the DA but I didn't mean it as a threat


I was fortunate to buy the first one in Santa Clara county and DNNA lists Santa Clara county as their headquarters. Their DA has a great mediation program. I wasn't mean about it. I just wanted to document the activation policy. In fact I go out of my way to be nice the the people on the phone. The first of the three people I talked to today was an idiot but the next two, one Indian and one Texan, were great.


I feel sorry for the service reps. None of them work for DNNA. They are in the miserable position of taking abuse for DNNA's poor decision making. Based on the tone of the posters here I bet they get *a lot* of abuse.


I hope DNNA makes it. Frankly I don't see a good outcome. A purchase by TiVo would be nice but I'm afraid TiVo would kill the network features. The network features are what make ReplayTV better for me.


Take care,


Dan


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by Grosvenor_
*IA purchase by TiVo would be nice but I'm afraid TiVo would kill the network features. The network features are what make ReplayTV better for me.


Dan*
But if RPTV goes down because of this, why would Tivo buy them then? Tivo could just sit on the side line, knowing that they would have the market to themselves anyway.


----------



## allaboutmojo

I have two 5504 models. I noticed a few people stating that their units indicate "activated" or "one time fee paid" indicated. I don't see this anywhere on my unit although they are both working at this time???


Where in the menu system would I find this on a 5504? I looked under system, etc and it shows "registered" but nothing about activated or grace period, etc.



Thanks


----------



## telamon

Quote:

_Originally posted by millwood_
*But if RPTV goes down because of this, why would Tivo buy them then? Tivo could just sit on the side line, knowing that they would have the market to themselves anyway.*
I'd guess to secure the subscriber base now, rather than later.


When MS re-enters the market with their PVR/Xbox 2, anyone who is already in the Tivo corner is a positive for Tivo.


Never underestimate the laziness of the consumer


----------



## telamon

Quote:

_Originally posted by BigJDurango_
*I have two 5504 models. I noticed a few people stating that their units indicate "activated" or "one time fee paid" indicated. I don't see this anywhere on my unit although they are both working at this time???


Where in the menu system would I find this on a 5504? I looked under system, etc and it shows "registered" but nothing about activated or grace period, etc.



Thanks*
Activation = You have service and your device is NOT a doorstop.


Registered = You have access to www.myreplaytv.com to remotely program your device and submitted contact info for warranty purposes.

Registered means that you already are Activated.


----------



## Grosvenor

Quote:

_Originally posted by millwood_
*But if RPTV goes down because of this, why would Tivo buy them then?*
I was thinking about the patents. If ReplayTV is built on VXWorks then their IP is probably not valuable but patents can be very valuable.


It is going to be hard for anyone to compete against Microsoft. The more patents you own the easier it will be.


Dan


----------



## Crrink

I'm not sure what the point is in arguing about the number of units sold - it really has no bearing on the question.

We have no reliable way to tally anything even close to a solid number. Just guesses and supposition, which aren't worth a whole lot.


I don't think anybody who participates on this forum has any idea at all how much it costs to service these units, or, more importantly, how much DNNA planned on getting for servicing future units. If anybody does, they likely can't share with us.


The only people who do know all these details aren't going to share them with us, and will let their ultimate decision be known sometime next week, presumably.


None of this matters in the end because DNNA will do whatever it is going to do, and the consumers will do the same.

DNNA is obviously not saying, "hey, this whole mistake cost only a drop in the bucket, so what the heck, ACTIVATIONS FOR ALL!!"

And the consumers aren't going to care of DNNA says that the mistake costs a billion dollars - they're still going to want what they paid for.


----------



## jleavens

Quote:

_Originally posted by Grosvenor_
*It is going to be hard for anyone to compete against Microsoft. The more patents you own the easier it will be.*
I used to think that. But time after time I've seen them try to enter markets as the 800lb gorilla and fail. UltimateTV was just one such attempt that proved that they are not invincible.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by Crrink_
*I'm not sure what the point is in arguing about the number of units sold - it really has no bearing on the question.

We have no reliable way to tally anything even close to a solid number. Just guesses and supposition, which aren't worth a whole lot.*
I would agree that none of us have a solid number as to how many units were sold. and I doubt anyone, including those at rptv, has a precise number.


the name of the game is to get a ball park figure and make reasonably good decisions based on incomplete and inaccurate information (aka the ball park figure).


and some people get paid a lot to do that.


----------



## dewolfxy

Quote:

_Originally posted by millwood_
*But I did read stores about people getting their techdepot units at the $149 price point.




If amazon had cancelled "all orders at the $149.99 price", they couldn't have let through any units, right?*
I ordered from Amazon.com via TechDepot, and received my unit. I ordered it probably about 30 minutes after the FW thread came out. I actually called and tried to cancel it, since I realized only after I ordered it might be a price mistake, but stupid TechDepot said I couldn't cancel (only 45 minutes after the order was placed). Anyway, I still have that unit and it's currently activated (after a brief de-activated period).


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by millwood_
*I would agree that none of us have a solid number as to how many units were sold. and I doubt anyone, including those at rptv, has a precise number.


the name of the game is to get a ball park figure and make reasonably good decisions based on incomplete and inaccurate information (aka the ball park figure).


and some people get paid a lot to do that.*
I don't understand the point of guestimating, though. What does it matter to us if the loss is $5 or $5 billion? We're not in the driver's seat, the folks at DNNA are. They get to decide what to do from here on out. True, if we don't like their decision, we're free to contest it through proper legal channels, but how is a wild a$$ guess at their amount of loss going to help/hinder that? Even if there is some threshold of loss at which you'll return your unit (or pay to subscribe), you can bet that there are hundreds of other people with hundreds of different tolerances who will base their actions on something other than the amount of loss DNNA has to face as a result of their error.


I'm nosy, and I'd absolutely love to know how many units were sold and how big of a problem this is at DNNA. I know I'm never going to find that out, though, so I'm doing my best to not care


----------



## j.m.

Quote:

_Originally posted by telamon_
*Activation = You have service and your device is NOT a doorstop.


Registered = You have access to www.myreplaytv.com to remotely program your device and submitted contact info for warranty purposes.

Registered means that you already are Activated.*
This isn't exactly right, as I've recently discovered. The ReplayTV actually keeps track of 3 separate things:


1) Activation - whether your unit has service and, if so, what kind (monthly or lifetime).


2) Product Registration - whether you have registered your unit for warranty purposes here: https://secure.digitalnetworksna.com...laytvsnreg.asp 


3) MyReplayTV Registration - whether you have signed your unit up to use the MyReplayTV service here: http://my.replaytv.com/servlet/DisplayCreateAccount 


I have seen several posts by people here and on FW that are confused by these 3 things. To be clear, you can register with MyReplayTV and use that service WITHOUT registering your ReplayTV product for warrranty purposes. Similarly, I don't think that registering your ReplayTV product automatically registers the unit for MyReplayTV. Finally, your unit can be Activated without being registered either for product warranty purposes or MyReplayTV (though conversely I'm not sure you can do either #2 or #3 unless you are Activated). Obviously, of the 3 settings, Activation should be the one that really matters to most people right now.


----------



## telamon

So when it says Registered under System Information, which registration is it talking about?


----------



## bobby_t1

I've registered for warranty at www.replaytv.com/registration, but after netconnect, my unit still says "not registered" under system info. If I go to the activation page and enter my system key, it tries to sells me activation. Seems like my unit isn't activated at all? I bought my unit on Dec 18 from compusa.. i guess i gotta call DNNA tomm?


----------



## allaboutmojo

Also, when it says registered does that really mean activated?


Also, if one does not register in any manner, that unit would state activated where others.mine say registered?


----------



## telamon

Assuming we're talking about 55xx units, I think this is how it goes.


The 55xx line was supposed to be activated already out of the box originally. On 12/21 sometime in the evening EST, RTV changed their activation system to tell 55xx units that they were NOT already activated out of the box on first net connect.


So 55xx units net connected for the first time before the activation system change on 12/21 will either say Registered or Not Registered. Since these boxes were connected under the old pricing model, they didn't have a concept of being un-activated.


55xx units connected after the activation system change (new price model) are NOT activated and will show a grace period after initial net connect. Once they are activated, they show "Activated (one-time fee paid)". I'm guessing that once you register for MyReplayTV, they change to Registered and that you CANNOT register for MyReplayTV without first being activated.


Someone holler if I'm wrong.


----------



## j.m.

Well, neither of my 5040s (which predate the fiasco) say "Registered" in System Information. Where does it show up when it does--as "Service: Registered"? Mine both say "Service: Activated (one-time fee paid)." Moreover, both of these units ARE registered with MyReplayTV (you can verify MyReplayTV registration by looking at the info in 411-zones). However, neither are registered on the product warranty page. It is possible that if they were it might say "Service: Registered" instead, but I'm not sure.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by Crrink_
*I don't understand the point of guestimating, though. What does it matter to us if the loss is $5 or $5 billion?*
a few things can happen depending on the significance of the losses.


if it is $5, you know that 1) rptv will ikely to cave in and 2) they can survive such a "blow";


if it is $5billion, you know that 1) rptv will fight like hell for it and 2) if they cave in, they cannot survive it -> we all are doomed.


those are pretty important things to know, right?


----------



## Crrink

Those would be good things to know, yes, but since we have no hard information, they are essentially unknowable to us.


The other important thing we don't know is D&M/DNNA's commitment to keeping the Replay line ongoing. If it's strong, there's a better chance that DNNA will do the right thing. If it's not, who knows what they'll do?


Again, it's not knowable to us. Speculation is fine, but why argue about it?


----------



## winter

Quote:

_Originally posted by millwood_
*a few things can happen depending on the significance of the losses.


if it is $5, you know that 1) rptv will ikely to cave in and 2) they can survive such a "blow";


if it is $5billion, you know that 1) rptv will fight like hell for it and 2) if they cave in, they cannot survive it -> we all are doomed.


those are pretty important things to know, right?*
Sure if the numbers were on one extreme or the other then it would be nice to know but I'd guess it isnt so black and white, but somewhere in the grey.


I'm sure there are upper and lower loss thresholds which would doom rptv and be too insignificant for them to care, respectively. Since we don't know what those upper and lower limits are, even if you did get a reasonable estimate of the loss you still wouldn't know what it means to the company. Still its fun to speculate.


----------



## Jodeus

On the FW thread someone posted a link to a D&M Holdings Powerpoint presentation from September. If memory serves me correctly it included a new either Marantz or Denon AV component that was both a receiver, amp and PVR.

IF they follow through with introducing a product like this, they would have to continue the Replay service for those machines and others. So while RTV may not continue in the way that we know it now, I don't forsee D&M erasing it and its service completely.


-Jody


----------



## tluxon

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jodeus_
*On the FW thread someone posted a link to a D&M Holdings Powerpoint presentation...*
It's been posted and discussed here a few times as well.

http://www.dm-holdings.com/pdf/pdf_648.pdf 


It appears that D&M is keeping the ReplayTV in mind, but in the example it's been relegated to the Guest Bedroom. That doesn't make it seem like D&Ms highest priority, expecially since D&M is more accustomed to having higher end/priced products.


Tim


----------



## jay_k

Quote:

_Originally posted by tluxon_
*It's been posted and discussed here a few times as well.

http://www.dm-holdings.com/pdf/pdf_648.pdf 


It appears that D&M is keeping the ReplayTV in mind, but in the example it's been relegated to the Guest Bedroom. That doesn't make it seem like D&Ms highest priority, expecially since D&M is more accustomed to having higher end/priced products.*
I think PVR functionality is one of D&M's priorities, considering its planned Denon "media server" with PVR and PAR (audio) functionality. I'm guessing they're looking at the ReplayTV more as a lower-end video-only unit (or possibly as a thin client), while the high end will be covered by the Denon media client.


D&M identifies back-end service and streaming as two strengths of ReplayTV, so I don't think they will abandon either one of these in their new clients. Which is good news for current Replay owners.


----------



## bobby_t1

I called ReplayTV customer support today. They created a "case #" for me and just asked that I fax in proof of purchase (dated receipt) along with my service key of my unit. I was told if I had purchased my unit from CompUsa at the $499 price I would have definitely had the 3 year service. But since I bought it at $149 there is confusion and I shouldn't be getting it. But she said they are correcting this and will give me the 3 year service activation.


She also asked me what the "sticker" on the box said. My sticker says "3 year service activation included..... additional months of service available at $0.99 per month...."


That is MUCH cheaper than the $12.99/month that the CSR is telling me. She said that DNNNA is re-evaluating this situation and figuring out what they will be doing about this situation for everyone after the 3 year period.


----------



## Roto

I got two 5540s from Circuit City and held one for a co-worker for a couple weeks. He just tried hooking it up this weekend and had modem troubles and said he spent all day on the phone troubleshooting it only for them to tell him that his phone line was too noisy. In the meantime they also told him that his unit was not activated and it just had a 10 day grace period. I thought that was pretty odd since it had been working any time I checked it for the two weeks that I had it. He was prepared to pay the activation fee, but apparently the modems they use are trash.


Their indecision really disappoints me. I don't expect I'll ever buy another ReplayTV, and I had bought a 3030, 4040 and 5040 before DNNA took over. I also had two friends each buy one on my recommendation. When I found out about the deal on the 17th, I knew there was a chance that this could be a mistake but I figure the worst that could happen would be that I'd have to return them. I definitely didn't expect DNNA to drag it out this long and turn it into such a mess.


----------



## jameskollar

Quote:

_Originally posted by winter_

Still its fun to speculate.
Bingo! It's all in fun.


----------



## jleavens

Quote:

_Originally posted by Roto_
*...but apparently the modems they use are trash.

...

I definitely didn't expect DNNA to drag it out this long and turn it into such a mess.*
Did your friend try stepping down the modem speed? That usually works for most people. You need to make sure that the unit has the 5.1 software to insure that the speed settings take properly, though. The modems work just fine for most of the people who use them. Also make sure to try a different dial-in numbers.


As for the indecision, I agree that something should be concrete by now. But seeing as how the previous decision was to not honor the activation, most people who are holding the units should consider the current indecision welcome...


----------



## sfhub

Quote:

_Originally posted by jleavens_
*You need to make sure that the unit has the 5.1 software to insure that the speed settings take properly, though. The modems work just fine for most of the people who use them. Also make sure to try a different dial-in numbers.*
Yes, please make sure OPs friend is running 5.1 build 19. There were also

some bad overnight lockup problems with the earlier software when using

modem which were fixed.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by tluxon_
*It appears that D&M is keeping the ReplayTV in mind, but in the example it's been relegated to the Guest Bedroom.


Tim*
that doesn't bode well for us.


One huge leverage against rptv in this whole fiasco is the retailers. As long as rptv needs to distribute its products through CC/CUSA or RS, they have an incentive to make their customers (us) happy.


If, however, the value of rptv to D&M is so that they can integrate PVRs into their own products (which are distributed large by dealer networks rather than CC/CUSA/RS), RPTV can now afford to piss off those retailers without suffering huge consequencies.


----------



## bradbomb

Question for this thread, I returned my unit I bought on the 17th back to CC because other than the activation worries which were in the back of my head because the unit was still "Registered", the unit itself was broken. It would constantly crash just watching live tv, or playback whatever. It looked to be a faulty MPEG encoder/decoder in my opinion. I know it wasnt the drive because I tried replacing it with another using a fresh ReplayTV image drive from online. Same problems. Everyone on all forums were like you have a lemon to get an RMA and I didnt want to attract attention to my unit and end up getting in a fight for the 3 years because my unit was still running despite the freezes last week and had not been deactivated. If Replay ends up giving service to those people who still have their units, should I call them up and be like, you had told me to pay extra for activation or return the unit and now you have changed your stance on the issue, I should be allowed to repurchace a unit. If they said no, I wouldnt try to fight it. Also, since I also have pictures of my original unit's box and still have my Circuit City Receipt, would buying a unit now again also be a solution?


----------



## jones07

Quote:

_Originally posted by bradbomb_
*I call them up and be like, you had told me to pay extra for activation or return the unit and now you have changed your stance on the issue, I should be allowed to repurchace a unit. If they said no, I wouldnt try to fight it. Also, since I also have pictures of my original unit's box and still have my Circuit City Receipt, would buying a unit now again also be a solution?*
You asked 


I think you should be SOL. You could have taken it back an got another as a replacement.


You had a choice.

1 Return for refund

2 Return unit for a new unit.

3) RMA it to DNNA for repair.


You pick option #1 Live with it. Don't try to jump back on the mistaken price deal bandwagon now that you see DNNA might cave-in SOL



you asked


----------



## jay_k

Is anyone able to corroborate the information below?



--


Ohboy1 from FW said:


----------



## jleavens

I haven't heard anything official, but I have heard from customers in the last 24 hours who have said this is what they were being told. This also jibes with the unofficial rumblings I heard towards the end of last week....


Working on official confirmation now...


----------



## dyker

Wow! So if I can still find a green sticker box...?


----------



## jeffp3456

hopefully this will include refunds for those of us who reluctantly paid anyway even though the box said it was included.

Since all my xmas boxes were thrown away i assume they can tell from the serial # that it was one of the affected players.


Jeff


----------



## el borak

Quote:

_Originally posted by jeffp3456_
*Since all my xmas boxes were thrown away...*
I'm not trying to be snide, but *why* on Earth would you do that with the uncertainty surrounding this entire situation???


----------



## Jeff D

I think DNNA buckeld under the understanding that the consumer isn't responsible for the screw up. That someone must take blame for the screwup and the only real place to point the finger is at the source of the change. The rest of the changes are basically a violation of an agreement between the manufacture and the consumer as stated on the box.


Blah blah blah... we've been down this road before. But I'm glad to hear they are correcting any problem.


I'm really curious what the total number of units that sold at this price was.


Justin, still no offical word on Jim? You never responed to page two question about the reported "new" pres of DNNA.


----------



## choli0090

This was on DNNA's website....


The company is aware that after a December 16, 2003 price change on the ReplayTV 5500 Series DVRs, some retail outlets sold products that were mistakenly labeled on the outside of the box to indicate that 3 years of service was included in the price of the product. In addition, in a few cases, the company's call center inadvertently told some customers that the new price did include 3 years of service. For those customers who were confused by these mistakes, the company will provide three years of free service. ReplayTV will work with customers to verify mistakenly labeled product by retailer and date of purchase through product serial numbers and receipts. ReplayTV will use its call center records to identify those customers who contacted the call center and received incorrect information.


ReplayTV regrets any pricing confusion that resulted from labeling inconsistencies during the holiday season.


----------



## bobby_t1

Quote:

_Originally posted by choli0090_
*"...ReplayTV will use its call center records to identify those customers who contacted the call center and received incorrect information...."*
this is a nightmare waiting to happen. I can just see it now.

*SOL Customer:* "But I bought my replay on December 19th, 2003 and was told in store that it included 3 year service. The box even has a green sticker."

*CSR:* "did you call the call center and get told it would include the service at the price you paid?"

*SC:* "uh.... no... but I didn't know I had to call the call center..."


----------



## civy

I believe ReplayTV lawyers & management will satisfy only clearest cases here. This should weaken any class action lawsuit (since they have eliminated the strongest positions). I am not going to send further information to ReplayTV until they provide formal documentation of their positions.


...I am quite glad I called ReplayTV on 17th and keep documentation


----------



## jones07

Quote:

_Originally posted by choli0090_
*This was on DNNA's website....


The company is aware that after a December 16, 2003 price change on the ReplayTV 5500 Series DVRs, some retail outlets sold products that were mistakenly labeled on the outside of the box to indicate that 3 years of service was included in the price of the product. In addition, in a few cases, the company's call center inadvertently told some customers that the new price did include 3 years of service. For those customers who were confused by these mistakes, the company will provide three years of free service. ReplayTV will work with customers to verify mistakenly labeled product by retailer and date of purchase through product serial numbers and receipts. ReplayTV will use its call center records to identify those customers who contacted the call center and received incorrect information.


ReplayTV regrets any pricing confusion that resulted from labeling inconsistencies during the holiday season.*
Does anyone think DNNA has their call center records that togetter that they can track 100's of calls to waco and India to back up this press release ? This is Dnna's customers service centers we are talking about here 


choli0090, Good find. sorry about my other post to ya

Read first make fun of someone second


----------



## GooberedUp

Quote:

_Originally posted by civy_
*I believe ReplayTV lawyers & management will satisfy only clearest cases here. This should weaken any class action lawsuit (since they have eliminated the strongest positions). I am not going to send further information to ReplayTV until they provide formal documentation of their positions.


...I am quite glad I called ReplayTV on 17th and keep documentation*
Well, call center records won't account for those people that called in about activation prior to purchase and didn't even have serial numbers to provide.


So, I think they'll be broadly providing service activation based on purchase date.


----------



## Diode1

Those that called Replay and have been given a case number should be ok.


----------



## LLaurel

Quote:

_Originally posted by choli0090_
*This was on DNNA's website....



For those customers who were confused by these mistakes, the company will provide three years of free service. ReplayTV will work with customers to verify mistakenly labeled product by retailer and date of purchase through product serial numbers and receipts. ReplayTV will use its call center records to identify those customers who contacted the call center and received incorrect information.


*
... and those customers who were NOT confused by the definitive statements on the ReplayTV website and the retailers' websites can just pound sand? It looks like RTV is prepared to reward those who knew that this was an error and called to cover their butts, while taking a hard line against those who accepted all of the evidence available without initiating a full scale, independent investigation. Interesting.


----------



## Diode1

Again, this is a way for Replay to minimize damages, some people will decide just to return the unit to the stores without a fight because of the hassles.

In these cases Replay wins without further losses.

Those that call and take a hard-line will probably win their service back.

Replay is in a very tough sitsuation, you really can't blame them for trying everything to save a few $'s here.


----------



## 2peaches2oranges

what about the fact that their website said that all 5504's included 3 years of service up and until the 22nd when their press release came out?? They omitted this in the press release.


No wonder we are "confused". Why call CSR when the website said it all, as well as the unit boxes, inside paperwork and the retailers and/or retailers website? It wasn't like it was just one place selling them like this. I think that if we have a receipt showing a $149 purchase early, like before the 12/22 when the sticker crews started going out, we should be ok, but who knows.... still confused.


Christine w/2 5504's purchased 12-17, one activated 12-17, one activated(was a gift so not activated until 1-1-04) til 1-14-04. Also one who never heard of ReplayTV until saw FW thread that morning but knew what a TIVO was.


----------



## xjimmyx

What is not clear is how this plan will be implemented. Will the recently-reactivated 5504s be deactivated pending proof, or will they just stay activated? I cannot imagine that happening, but since DNAA recently activated all (or most) units pending their decision, what does this statement really mean? Remember, many were reactivated despite no contact with call center/proof of purchase date. They need to make clear what steps, if any, the consumer must take.


----------



## Crrink

I certainly hope this isn't the big resolution we've been waiting for.

Another lame move from DNNA.

I didn't bother calling the call center myself - didn't see any reason to when there were multiple reports on FW, all saying the same thing.


tluxon asked me why I'd want to continue a relationship with a company that I'm so disappointed with, and for the first time, I'm beginning to think maybe he's right. I'm not going to let DNNA win on this one, but once it's settled, I may well sell this RTV on eBay and buy another TiVo.


Edit:

Just realized that in this latest press release DNNA now says that the price change did take effect after 12/16, meaning the retailers didn't screw up or jump the gun, or whatever else the RTV faithful have accused them of. So, if the price changed on 12/16, why did DNNA wait until 12/22 to make note of it on their website?

So lame.


----------



## winter

Quote:

_Originally posted by Crrink_
*I certainly hope this isn't the big resolution we've been waiting for.

Another lame move from DNNA.

I didn't bother calling the call center myself - didn't see any reason to when there were multiple reports on FW, all saying the same thing.*
Ditto. Anyway I think this is just posturing on their part. They now have to prove what I did or did not know - good luck with that. People that called prior to purchase didnt get case numbers. People that were told things verbally by retailers have no written proof. I have a copy of the web site I purchased from, a purchased date well before 12/22 and a box with a green sticker - thats enough evidence for me...


----------



## Diode1

ReplayTV Accepts Blame for Snafu

TiVo Rival to Offer Service

At No Charge to Customers

Angry Over Pricing Mishap


By RON LIEBER


Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


ReplayTV is pressing the replay button, after a holiday-season pricing gaffe

infuriated many consumers.


The maker of digital video recorders, which competes heavily with the

better-known TiVo product, will offer three years of service free of charge

to customers who bought certain products during the last two weeks of

December. The service is supposed to cost $12.95 a month, or $299 for a

"lifetime" subscription that pays for itself in less than two years. The

recorder is of limited use without the service, which includes the

television listings necessary to program the unit to record future shows.


Until last month, ReplayTV, which is a unit of D&M Holdings Inc., sold the

recorder plus the monthly service packaged together, which made it look

hundreds of dollars more expensive than rival TiVo, which priced the two

separately. The week before Christmas, ReplayTV made its pricing structure

more like that of TiVo and even set the price of its cheapest unit at $149,

$50 below TiVo's lowest-price machine.


Retailers, however, got confused in the pre-Christmas rush. Many Circuit

City Stores, COMPUSA and RadioShack outlets sold Replays at the new lower

price of $149, but didn't tell buyers that the monthly service wasn't

included anymore. To make matters worse, the boxes holding the devices had

stickers that said that three years of service was included in the purchase

price, which wasn't true anymore. The boxes also had notices inside saying

the service was free of charge.


Almost immediately, word got out on the Internet that an amazing deal was

afoot. Some people snapped up one or two recorders, thinking that Replay was

having a huge holiday blowout. But soon, profiteers emerged to take

advantage of the mistake. Many of them bought 10 Replays at a time in order

to sell them for a profit on eBay. Thousands of Replays flew out of stores

in a matter of days.


ReplayTV realized what a huge problem it had on its hands when buyers had

trouble registering their machines and then refused to pay for service when

the company's customer-service representatives asked them to do so. Some of

those consumers responded by rallying on Web sites such as **************,

where they encouraged others to bombard ReplayTV executives,

consumer-protection agencies and members of the media with complaints that

the company and the retailers weren't honoring the advertised offering.


Finally, Monday night, ReplayTV buckled and offered most customers who

bought a 5500 series recorder the three years of service free of charge

after all. In order to get the free service, people who bought the recorders

will have to give their serial numbers to ReplayTV so that it can confirm

that the devices were bought at retailers who hadn't yet caught up to the

new pricing structure at the time of purchase.

"We're not placing any blame on any retailers," says ReplayTV President

Bernie Sepaniak. "We bear the responsibility for this transition."

This is just the latest in a series of situations in which consumers have

capitalized quickly on pricing mistakes after reading about them on the Web.

But Mr. Sepaniak declined to lay the blame for this fracas at the feet of

its customers. "I've learned in a short time that Replay's customer base is

very intelligent," he says. "Did they take advantage of the situation? Yeah,

they probably did. But in the end, we value all of our customers, and the

smartest customers are our best customers."


----------



## jay_k

I don't believe the website message is the official press release. It does look like the author of the WSJ article above had access to the press release, since the information in the article is slightly different. Hopefully we will see a "real" official communication soon.


----------



## Runny

What about Radio Shack 5040 units? They did not have the green stickers, however they were NEVER sold with green stickers, even when service _was_ included. So why would you think anything different about a red sticker touting activation is NOT included when in fact that sticker used to be incorrect (before 12/17) and the Radio Shack employees said to ignore it? I really hope that this applies to 5040's as well.


And what's with this "3 years of service"? I thought that was overwith and it's all lifetime now.


- Runny


----------



## millwood

the moment you thought they couldn't have been any dumber, they proved you wrong, .


1) how the hell can they implement this "validation" thing?

2) what's the legal ground for providing services contingent on calling the call center and getting a case number? If that's the case, shouldn't RPTV put on huge stickers ont he box reminding the customers?

3) when did the business model change took effect? 12/16 or 12/22?


I don't think this thing is over. and to me, if this is the official line from rptv, the new guy isn't any smarter.


I cannot believe a lawyer will let this to be released.


----------



## dewolfxy

I think what they're doing is keeping the bar high for proving you get the 3 years free, so that they can say they're taking responsibility (which they are) while as few people as possible try to meet the terms. For instance, for people that bought many units (say 5-10), don't they become more likely to return most of them and only keep 1 or 2?


As for 3 years vs. lifetime, my bet is they're not saying lifetime now but would end up grandfathering in these units with the other 3yr to lifetime conversions. They have no incentive to say "yes, we'll give you lifetime" now - it would just lead people to be even more likely to want to keep their units.


I can't find that Wall St. Journal article anywhere online, but the site is subscription only (I have access through ProQuest). Anyone else seen it online (I've only seen the text posted in a FW post)?


----------



## MrO

Quote:

_Originally posted by dewolfxy_
*

I can't find that Wall St. Journal article anywhere online, but the site is subscription only (I have access through ProQuest). Anyone else seen it online (I've only seen the text posted in a FW post)?*
Can't get it online either (not a subscriber), but I found it in the print edition (made a phtocopy from a subscriber at work). Page D2 of today's (1/6/04) edition.


----------



## Protoguy

What happens to the 99cents per year after 3 years?. Will they honor the wording on the box or not. For those that bought a 5508 for $300 that would be $8.00 per month. With the three years it would have worked out to about $4.00.


----------



## RamblinWreck

Quote:

_Originally posted by Runny_
*What about Radio Shack 5040 units? They did not have the green stickers, however they were NEVER sold with green stickers, even when service was included. So why would you think anything different about a red sticker touting activation is NOT included when in fact that sticker used to be incorrect (before 12/17) and the Radio Shack employees said to ignore it? I really hope that this applies to 5040's as well.


And what's with this "3 years of service"? I thought that was overwith and it's all lifetime now.


- Runny*
My personal opinion is that the RS 5040 owners may well be out of luck.


I went and bought two 5040's on the 17th at two different RS (each store only had one left). At both stores the sales people told me that activation was REQUIRED and that I needed to check the Replaytv website for the details. The stickers on the outside of these RS 5040's (as well as the paperwork inside) said that activation was required and that I would have to check the ReplayTV website for details. None of the paperwork listed any pricing information.


The Replaytv press release about this activation fiasco references units with "labels indicating three years of service" or those "who called the service center and were told that the units came with three years activation". I'm guessing if you purchased a RS 5040 and you want the activation included with the $150 price, you had better have a record of your call to the service center. Otherwise, I think you're out of luck.


I went ahead and lifetime activated the RS 5040's on 12/21/03. Call me a fool, but I thought $400 ($150 for the unit & $250 for the activation) a decent deal for a unit with Commercial Advance. It was much better than $499 (price with 3 year activation before 12/16/03) or $450 ($150 + $300 lifetime activation on 12/22/03).


Good Luck to those with RS 5040's.


----------



## dewolfxy

Quote:

_Originally posted by MrO_
*Can't get it online either (not a subscriber), but I found it in the print edition (made a phtocopy from a subscriber at work). Page D2 of today's (1/6/04) edition.*
Ah, I found it too - via ProQuest.


----------



## DeathFromAbove

So I am a little confused with this entire situation, has ReplayTV reactivated all the units that had that sticker on them? If they haven't when are they going to make a final decision on what they plan to do? And finally if someone had recieved one for christmas and has not yet setup it up, when they do set it up will it be an activated unit?


Thanks I appreciate any clearification on the issue.


----------



## winter

Quote:

_Originally posted by DeathFromAbove_
*So I am a little confused with this entire situation, has ReplayTV reactivated all the units that had that sticker on them? If they haven't when are they going to make a final decision on what they plan to do? And finally if someone had recieved one for christmas and has not yet setup it up, when they do set it up will it be an activated unit?*
Recently they have provided activation for anyone who calls up and complains it seems; Since the above release seems to imply they are going to try to limit it to people who didnt know better (which is very vague) that implies that some units that were recently activated may be in fact deactivated unless they can provide certain proof which has not yet been determined.


As far as a new unit connected for the first time right now, I dont know if you will be activated right out of the box, I suspect it will default to the a non-activated grace period which is the current (post 12/22) business model.


My take is that if you have proof of purchase prior to 12/22 (at any price) then you are probably good to go; the only exceptions I could imagine would be if you bought from an outlet that specifically warned that activation was no longer included and they can document it (say web retailer xyz changed their online description on 12/19, then I imagine that would be the cutoff date for all units purchased through that particular outlet) I can't see how they could know what all the different brick & mortar retail stores did in terms of signage changes, etc...


Anyway thats a lot of speculation on my part


----------



## solo545

Setup 5504 unit on Jan. 4th and got the 10-day grace period message.


Called ReplayTV on Jan. 5th, got the India call center, then got transferred to what I assume was the Waco location (the so-called "escalation department" ? ) .


After talking to a very pleasant RTV manager, I explained my situation and without going into specifics about purchase price and purchase date (Xmas gift, no receipt, blah blah), I was told that my case would be put under consideration and given a case number. I provided my email address and was told to await resolution of my case.


10 minutes later, the "magic" email arrived stating "Your unit has been activated for the agreed upon 3 years". And yes, an additional 3 yrs. are available at $36 also.


BUT ... when I went home, I saw an even better message under the 5504 "Setup" stating "Activated (one-time fee paid)". I'm hoping that this means I have lifetime !!! Can anyone verify this? I've seen this same message on another ReplayTV that was given Lifetime Activation (according to the ReplayTV Cust. Service Dept.).


I have to admit after using this product, I'll soon be dumping my VCR's into the trash bin  The latest software download gives commerical skip - incredible !!! (what can I say, I'm a noob). Next up - RTVpatch ...


----------



## MrO

Quote:

_Originally posted by solo545_
*

10 minutes later, the "magic" email arrived stating "Your unit has been activated for the agreed upon 3 years". And yes, an additional 3 yrs. are available at $36 also.


BUT ... when I went home, I saw an even better message under the 5040 "Setup" stating "Activated (one-time fee paid)". I'm hoping that this means I have lifetime !!! Can anyone verify this? I've seen this same message on another ReplayTV that was given Lifetime Activation (according to the ReplayTV Cust. Service Dept.).
*
Is it actually a 5040, or did you mean to say 5504? Wondering becuase I also have a 5040 that is now "Activated (one-time fee paid)" in the setup screen. (It was initially activated, then deactivated, now back.) I have record of a support case # (9/18) but don't know where I stand with this one, since the new statements from Replay only mention 5504s.


----------



## jameskollar

QUOTE]For those customers who were confused by these mistakes, the company will provide three years of free service. ReplayTV will work with customers to verify mistakenly labeled product by retailer and date of purchase through product serial numbers and receipts. ReplayTV will use its call center records to identify those customers who contacted the call center and received incorrect information.[/quote]


jeez, am I the only one reading what Replay / DNNA has announced as the right thing to do? Sounds like they were caught with their pants down but it also seems like they intend to make good on the underpriced units. I particularly did not read into the post about call center records that you had to have made a call to the call center to get the activiation. Reading it from another perspective, I intrepreted it as meaning that they would use those records as additional proof, not exclusive proof, that the customer bought an underpriced unit and will therefore receive free activation.


To DNNA, sorry ya screwed up. But I'm glad you're trying to make things right.


----------



## solo545

Yeah, I meant a 5504 - their newest box, I assume. It's their 40-hour capacity unit.


From all that I have read, it appears that RTV no longer offers the 3+3 yr. deal and all of these subs are being converted to lifetime. Seems like RTV is going to copy Tivo's pricing structure and go with either monthly fees or a one-time fee.


SO - I am assuming/hoping/praying that my "Activated (one-time fee paid)" means its lifetime.


Be aware though, that the lifetime sub follows the BOX (the serial number, to be exact) and not YOU. So if the box croaks (and not vice-versa) you will need to get it fixed otherwise the lifetime sub is history. At least, that's what I "hear". Haven't done any hard research into this one yet.


ANOTHER QUESTION:


Does anyone know whether the RTV at Standard quality mode is better than Tivo? Can't see the difference between medium and standard, but I hear Standard mode in Tivo is nearly unwatchable. Better compression algorithms at RTV?


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by jameskollar_
*For those customers who were confused by these mistakes, the company will provide three years of free service.*
so we all need to prove to rptv our state of mind at the time of purchase in order to receive three years of free service, 


can someone show me how to prove confusion?


and I would on top of this lay the 12/22 press release that said that all units with 3-yr service will be converted to life. so they owe us that one too, if we can prove that we were confused, 


this thing is getting weirder by the minute.


----------



## jameskollar

Quote:

can someone show me how to prove confusion?
Easy, when you call the call center ask to have your Tivo lifetime activated.  Or better yet, call the Tivo call center and ask to have your Replay activated.


_____________________________________________________


I love snow days!


----------



## sheakt

Quote:

_Originally posted by jeffp3456_
*hopefully this will include refunds for those of us who reluctantly paid anyway even though the box said it was included.

Since all my xmas boxes were thrown away i assume they can tell from the serial # that it was one of the affected players.


Jeff*
I just got off the phone with them.... They deactivated my 5504 so that they could refund the "fee" to credit card. Then they had me send the "proof of purchase" stuff to Waco so that they can reactivate it......


----------



## winter

Look folks this is very easy, stop trying to make it so complicated:


If you were only slightly dazed or disoriented you get a 3 year sub free

If you were completely bamboozled or became unconscious you get a lifetime sub free

If you were experiencing mild feelings of panic or vertigo then you get nothing and must return the unit the retailer where you bought for a full refund[/list=1]

How much clearer can they make this?


----------



## DeathFromAbove

The main thing I am concerned with is I received one as a chrsitmas gift, I am on vacation and have not been able to set it up, further I do not have access to the receipt since I did not buy it and do not live near to the person who bought it for me. I would have to have him send me the receipt and personally I do not feel I should have to do this to use a gift I received for christmas, hopefully when I get home and have a chance to setup the machine I won't have any problems.


----------



## tluxon

Quote:

_Originally posted by Diode1_
*ReplayTV Accepts Blame for Snafu

TiVo Rival to Offer Service

At No Charge to Customers

Angry Over Pricing Mishap


By RON LIEBER


Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


...Finally, Monday night, ReplayTV buckled and offered most customers who

bought a 5500 series recorder the three years of service free of charge

after all. In order to get the free service, people who bought the recorders

will have to give their serial numbers to ReplayTV so that it can confirm

that the devices were bought at retailers who hadn't yet caught up to the

new pricing structure at the time of purchase.

"We're not placing any blame on any retailers," says ReplayTV President

Bernie Sepaniak. "We bear the responsibility for this transition."

This is just the latest in a series of situations in which consumers have

capitalized quickly on pricing mistakes after reading about them on the Web.

But Mr. Sepaniak declined to lay the blame for this fracas at the feet of

its customers. "I've learned in a short time that Replay's customer base is

very intelligent," he says. "Did they take advantage of the situation? Yeah,

they probably did. But in the end, we value all of our customers, and the

smartest customers are our best customers."*
I'm very encouraged by the words of ReplayTV President Bernie Sepaniak. Maybe they're going to get this right in the end. Too bad they couldn't have come out with this position on day 1, then I would've valued the intelligence of the company as much as they value the intelligence of their customers.


Tim


----------



## GooberedUp

You could have the gift giver activate for you. That way they can fax in the receipt for you. I know that I would never mind doing something like that. Particularly if I had bought a $150.00 gift for someone.


----------



## ssbkt

I just spoke with CS at DNNA and this is the latest plan. All customers who bought a 5504 with the Green Sticker between 12/17 and 12/21 should place their boxes on the roof of their home or apartment with the green sticker clearly showing. DNNA will work with the NSA to temporarily redeploy their satellites from hunting terrorists in Afghanistan to verifying green stickers on ReplayTv boxes in North America. This process will take place the night of 1/21 (Full Moon). You must have your boxes on the roof by 8pm EST. If there is cloud cover when the satellite passes over then you must leave them on the roof until you are notified that your subscription has been confirmed.


----------



## bobby_t1

Quote:

_Originally posted by Protoguy_
*What happens to the 99cents per year after 3 years?. Will they honor the wording on the box or not. For those that bought a 5508 for $300 that would be $8.00 per month. With the three years it would have worked out to about $4.00. *
this is a good catch.. i mentioned this in an earlier post I made. The green sticker not only mentions 3 year service is included, but subsequent months are only $0.99 per month, not $0.99 per year as you said.


I figure that DNNA cannot possibly manage lifetime subs, $12.99 per month subs and $0.99 per month subs. I figure all the 3 years will be upgraded to lifetimes in the end so they have a single pricing structure. They are probably not saying anything now to indirecrtly discourage ppl from keeping their units.


----------



## winter

Quote:

_Originally posted by ssbkt_
*I just spoke with CS at DNNA and this is the latest plan. All customers who bought a 5504 with the Green Sticker between 12/17 and 12/21 should place their boxes on the roof of their home or apartment with the green sticker clearly showing. DNNA will work with the NSA to temporarily redeploy their satellites from hunting terrorists in Afghanistan to verifying green stickers on ReplayTv boxes in North America. This process will take place the night of 1/21 (Full Moon). You must have your boxes on the roof by 8pm EST. If there is cloud cover when the satellite passes over then you must leave them on the roof until you are notified that your subscription has been confirmed.*
That's so stupid - what if its raining?


----------



## Darq

I was told that you have to tape your receipt to the top of the box as well -- only those receipts with dates before the 21st have a special coating on them that can be seen and read by DNNA-SAT-0292


----------



## bobby_t1

There is also a distributed computing application being developed by the creators of [email protected] This is being called [email protected] The distributed computing application will crunch through all the data the NASA sattelites are collecting.


The resuults of who has a subscription and who does not will not be solved until 2007.


----------



## breaux124

Quote:

_Originally posted by RamblinWreck_
*My personal opinion is that the RS 5040 owners may well be out of luck.


I went and bought two 5040's on the 17th at two different RS (each store only had one left). At both stores the sales people told me that activation was REQUIRED and that I needed to check the Replaytv website for the details. The stickers on the outside of these RS 5040's (as well as the paperwork inside) said that activation was required and that I would have to check the ReplayTV website for details. None of the paperwork listed any pricing information.


The Replaytv press release about this activation fiasco references units with "labels indicating three years of service" or those "who called the service center and were told that the units came with three years activation". I'm guessing if you purchased a RS 5040 and you want the activation included with the $150 price, you had better have a record of your call to the service center. Otherwise, I think you're out of luck.


I went ahead and lifetime activated the RS 5040's on 12/21/03. Call me a fool, but I thought $400 ($150 for the unit & $250 for the activation) a decent deal for a unit with Commercial Advance. It was much better than $499 (price with 3 year activation before 12/16/03) or $450 ($150 + $300 lifetime activation on 12/22/03).


Good Luck to those with RS 5040's.*
Radio Shack flyer attached


----------



## bobby_t1

I just got off the phone with Replay CSR again. I gave them my case # to check on the activation status of my 5504. I faxed in my receipt yesterday morning... they said my replay was activated for 3 years and I should see the change in 24 hours.


we'll see what happens in 24 hours.


----------



## antnjen

Quote:

_Originally posted by ssbkt_
*I just spoke with CS at DNNA and this is the latest plan. All customers who bought a 5504 with the Green Sticker between 12/17 and 12/21 should place their boxes on the roof of their home or apartment with the green sticker clearly showing. DNNA will work with the NSA to temporarily redeploy their satellites from hunting terrorists in Afghanistan to verifying green stickers on ReplayTv boxes in North America. This process will take place the night of 1/21 (Full Moon). You must have your boxes on the roof by 8pm EST. If there is cloud cover when the satellite passes over then you must leave them on the roof until you are notified that your subscription has been confirmed.*
Dude, I only had 3 hours of sleep last night, but you managed to wake me up. You've got my vote for the DNNA SNAFU Funniest Post.


----------



## Runny

Quote:

_Originally posted by breaux124_
*Radio Shack flyer attached*
I also have a printout from their website on 12/17 with the new price, indicating that service is included.


----------



## RamblinWreck

breaux124 :


Kewl !


Guess I am out of luck and you guys are in luck  Out of curiosity, from where did you get this advertisement ? Was it a RS circular that you saw prior to the pricing fiasco ?


----------



## Diode1

Quote:

_Originally posted by breaux124_
*Radio Shack flyer attached*
Or you can use the real thing if you have it, the RS store gave me their signage, they sold me the demo unit that was never plugged in, They did this after they called Replay verify my lifetime service prior to my purchase.


----------



## Eaton007

I just found a 5504 at CC today with the Green Sticker saying it has the 3-years included, plus the documents inside stating the same! Does anyone know if Replay will honor this since I purchased it today? Maybe play dumb, got as christmas present with no receipt?


----------



## ophus

I hope not! Man people never cease too amaze me.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by Eaton007_
*play dumb*
no. the key word is to play "confused" if you read their news release.


----------



## CarrieKirby

Hi, I'm a reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle looking for folks in my area who bought the $150 ReplayTV. Today the company says they will give 3 years free service to those who were confused by product labeling or were told they'd get 3 years service by the call center. Your reaction?


Please email me asap at [email protected] . must be by 3 p.m. Tuesday.


thanks!


----------



## Diode1

CarrieKirby,

As long as DNNA Replay TV does what they have said, I think they have taken a huge step forward in the competition race with their rival Tivo.

The Replay product it self is as good if not better with the features people really use.

This can really play in favor for Replay over the long run, Happy user's

will tell others about it and at the same time set people straight with some of the differences between Tivo & Replay.

With the new $299/$12.95 pricing, this may need to be modified at some point, I just can't see them drawing in a new novice customer base to a product with such a monthly pricing structure.

Maybe if they change it to a free 30 day trial, but still that fee for most is a turn off.

Just may brief take.


----------



## DeathFromAbove

I agree that if they do infact honor all these units, which I feel they should they will have gained a good number of satisfied customers who once are addicted to the product will most likely be happy to buy additional units.


----------



## breaux124

Quote:

_Originally posted by RamblinWreck_
*breaux124 :


Kewl !


Guess I am out of luck and you guys are in luck  Out of curiosity, from where did you get this advertisement ? Was it a RS circular that you saw prior to the pricing fiasco ?*
It was in the store I bought my replay unit at. The funny part is a few days later in the mall I still saw this same ad in a different radio shack, even after all the confusion.


----------



## newRTVuser

Quote:

_Originally posted by RamblinWreck_
*My personal opinion is that the RS 5040 owners may well be out of luck.*
I've refrained from idle speculation on this issue... up until now


I do not believe that the RS owners are out of luck. The CC debacle was the major one for Replay and they've already written the RS folks off. I'm guessing that f your RS unit is activated, you're fine.


Additionally, I do not aggree with the posts here that say this is DNNA's sneaky way of keeping the bar high and making it difficult to prove that you deserve the service. NOR do I believe that they are going to track every one of the THOUSANDS of calls they've gotten over the last few weeks. Give me a break.


This press release (and more importantly, the WSJ article) is Replay's way of biting the bullet in response to all the negative press and potential returns/open-boxes. They've given in and IMMEDIATELY gave a MAJOR newspaper an interview that basically says "we believe that the customer is always right".


Hell, the WSJ article has more info than their own press release. That should tell you something. Their *real* battleground is in the press and the audience they're *really* worried about are the readers who have up until now only heard that a ReplayTV is somthing that screws you over at Christmas with bait-and-switch.


Their biggest concern is/was all the bad press, so they gave in. SURE there will be some gray area of units activated on Jan 4th. SURE some people will have to FAX in their receipts, but it seems obvious to me that DNNA's goal here was to cap this bad-press thing ASAP and they've done that by giving us our activation. If they were to deactivate everybody now, the bad press would burst the floodgates. And you can bet that there would be a followup WSJ article as well.


Kudos and thanks to all those here and at FW who kept the pressure on them.


----------



## Toadkiller

Sheesh you guys got me out of lurker mode  I have a copy of the RS web page when it had the 199 price and also says 3 years are included. Please let me know if you want the url, need 5 posts before I can post it in a message. Really enjoy these forums.


Scott


----------



## Diode1

Quote:

_Originally posted by Toadkiller_
*Sheesh you guys got me out of lurker mode







I have a copy of the RS web page when it had the 199 price and also says 3 years are included. Please let me know if you want the url, need 5 posts before I can post it in a message. Really enjoy these forums.

Scott*
Here is one that was on the net from someone.

RS also had a pdf of the December Holiday ad on line.

 

radio shack replaytv_before_change.zip 48.11328125k . file


----------



## Toadkiller

I had given it to several people from FW who have also made links and pdf's so it is probably the same one that has been going around. With my RS replay I called them and told them the truth on how much I paid and that I thought service was supposed to be with it. After escalating it 3 times to talk to someone different they finally agreed and gave me the service. I sent back the two I ordered for gifts from online cause I didn't want to hassle with it. Guess I should have kept them.


Scott


----------



## rad

I had purchased two units, a 5508 and 5504 on 12/17. On 12/31 the 5504 was turned off, I called DNNA and they said to pay up is the only way. I was watching this thread and say DNNA changed their mind again. So I called them yesterday, gave them the serial number and faxed them the sales receipt. Today I did a net connect and the unit now shows that one time fee has been paid and it's active.


Way to go DNNA. Someone somewhere pulled one of the worlds biggest boners on this but you finally decided to make things right. I was one of those folks that called DNNA and checked on the day this all started and was told that all 55XX's came preactivated for 3 years no matter what the price I paid was, so I went for it. DNNA could have played hard ball and ticked a lot of folks off, I'm glad they didn't.


----------



## dvc

I suspect the real reason for the "activation" concept is retailer margin points. If DNNA/ReplayTV simply increased the price of the unit, the big retailers would insist on maintaining their margin percentage, not "dollars per unit". The strategy is wonderful for a vendor who can pull it off - get CC, RS, etc. do your national marketing and let them have a generous margin on 1/3 of the purchase price, after which you receive the other 2/3 via an automated internet ordering system which does not give away any points to the middlman. Suddenly a 45% margin becomes 15% (or whatever). Brilliant. Simply brilliant.


----------



## mjdent

I purchased a 5040 for $140 from Best Buy on 12/28 with no activation but a green sticker on box saying that I could get service for $250 activation or $9.95 a month. Do I have any recourse?


----------



## jay_k

Quote:

_Originally posted by mjdent_
*I purchased a 5040 for $140 from Best Buy on 12/28 with no activation but a green sticker on box saying that I could get service for $250 activation or $9.95 a month. Do I have any recourse?*
Yes, you can pay for the activation, or get a full refund.


----------



## BeefStu

Quote:

_Originally posted by DeathFromAbove_
*...satisfied customers who once are addicted to the product will most likely be happy to buy additional units.*
Uh huh. Famous last words...


----------



## toots

Which just goes to show how the average person, having shot himself in the left foot, will take aim on the right - just to have a matched set.


----------



## Protoguy

Anybody else have a 5508 that just says registered? Bought it on the 17th turned it on 20th. Has never been disconnected but never has it said 3 years or paid yet either.


----------



## rad

Quote:

_Originally posted by Protoguy_
*Anybody else have a 5508 that just says registered? Bought it on the 17th turned it on 20th. Has never been disconnected but never has it said 3 years or paid yet either.*
My 5508 is exactly the same as yours.


----------



## jay_k

Quote:

_Originally posted by Protoguy_
*Anybody else have a 5508 that just says registered? Bought it on the 17th turned it on 20th. Has never been disconnected but never has it said 3 years or paid yet either.*
If it says "registered", "not yet registered", or "one-time fee paid", and there's no activation option in the menu, then you are activated.


----------



## jf1978

Activation is now $299, I called them the other day. I am guessing ReplayTV may honor $250 with a little arguing if there is no expiration on the red sticker.


----------



## mjdent

That is why I bought the unit. It seems unfaitr that they will give something to some but not others. I am prepared to pay the $250 but not $299. I will return 5040 before I do that.


----------



## Diode1

Here was the RS Holiday ad for the 5040 with three years service at $499.


----------



## jones07

But people did not pay $499 after 12-17


----------



## Diode1

It was just to show that the three years service was built into these 5040's & not sold separately.

Some even had lifetime


----------



## jones07

We all know that. DNNA is trying to spit hairs here.


----------



## GooberedUp

Quote:

_Originally posted by jones07_
*But people did not pay $499 after 12-17 *
I don't know about you, but I don't see anywhere on that ad where it says that activation is included only at the higher price. Even the RS guy said all their units came with activation (at $149.00) and so did the CSR at RTV.


Obviously RTV is trying to mitigate their losses here. Depending on the tenacity of the RS crowd, RTV likely will lose that round as well. They admitted that CSRs gave wrong information. THey did to me and I assume many other RS purchasers. Their hosed in this instance as well. But, there may be more fighting ahead. I have an activated 5504, so I don't know how much I'll fight.


----------



## allaboutmojo

So it looks like most of us that bought from CC for $150 adn called ReplyTV about service has their units activated and should not have a problem fore the next 3 years....BUT...


...shouldn't some documentation or discussion come about between owners and ReplayTV stating that our units will be Lifetime or .99/month?


Do you think ReplayTV has not brought this up becasue they plan on getting us for $12.99/month in 3 years?


I would rather not wait 3 years to send them a copy of the green sticker, but then again I am worried about calling up and stirring the pot.


----------



## Diode1

Quote:

_Originally posted by GooberedUp_
*I don't know about you, but I don't see anywhere on that ad where it says that activation is included only at the higher price.*
It's to the right that says *No monthly service fee for 3 years!*

The original was to large to post, so its a bit hard to read/see.

In short, Yes I agree that the RS clerks told me the same thing, I did'nt believe them so I had them call Replay from the store phone, The RS guys are wrong on my unit.

Replay CSR told them & myself that my sn# came with a lifetime service 

It was the store demo that they did'nt even bother plugging in.

I purchased it & asked the Replay CSR to email this confirmation, they did, end of story  "Lifetime" it has not blinked since placed in service


----------



## GooberedUp

Quote:

_Originally posted by Diode1_
*It's to the right that says No monthly service fee for 3 years!

The original was to large to post, so its a bit hard to read/see.

In short, Yes I agree that the RS clerks told me the same thing, I did'nt believe them so I had them call Replay from the store phone, The RS guys are wrong on my unit.

Replay CSR told them & myself that my sn# came with a lifetime service 

It was the store demo that they did'nt even bother plugging in.

I purchased it & asked the Replay CSR to email this confirmation, they did, end of story  "Lifetime" it has not blinked since placed in service *
What I'm saying is that nowhere does it say that if the unit DOESN'T sell at the $400 price that service is NOT included. My main intent was to say that it seemed that activation followed the unit at whatever price.


----------



## GooberedUp

Quote:

_Originally posted by Diode1_
*It's to the right that says No monthly service fee for 3 years!

The original was to large to post, so its a bit hard to read/see.

In short, Yes I agree that the RS clerks told me the same thing, I did'nt believe them so I had them call Replay from the store phone, The RS guys are wrong on my unit.

Replay CSR told them & myself that my sn# came with a lifetime service 

It was the store demo that they did'nt even bother plugging in.

I purchased it & asked the Replay CSR to email this confirmation, they did, end of story  "Lifetime" it has not blinked since placed in service *
By the way, ditto on my RS unit. I bought 3 demos, and only one of them was activated (but never used by RS!). The others will go back. My theory of buying from different stores and cities paid off on the 5040.


----------



## allaboutmojo

Another thing I do not understand is why ReplayTV is/might be requiring us to send copies of our receipt to them? What differnece is it what we paid $150 or $499...either purchase deserves the 3 years? Do you think this is their way of finding out who paid what for units they are reactivating?


----------



## sixt7gt350

Well, the 5040 that started active and was unactivated a couple days later was reactivated sometime in the past week while we were gone. The unopened one is no longer unopened and it, too, is active after power up and mothership contact.


I don't know, but I'm either starting to think that I don't need a newer unit or Christmas vacation events took the excitement out of everything. I'm considering just taking them back.


----------



## Scyber

Quote:

_Originally posted by toots_
*Which just goes to show how the average person, having shot himself in the left foot, will take aim on the right - just to have a matched set.*
I always wondered what a curmudgen autopsy sounded like...


----------



## tluxon

DNNA has guys reading these threads - it's no wonder they've been so reluctant to come forward with a carte blanche remedy. I'm sure they want to do the right thing, but it's really hard to be generous to people who only think of themselves and have no regard to entering a relationship that is MUTUALLY beneficial.


-----

Character is who you are when no one is watching


----------



## Jeff D

Not that it matters, but... I guess it's official Jim (justin's guy who "gets it") is no longer the president of replayTV. Maybe it's better that some guy who doesn't "get it" is in charge. Oh, wait.. if Jim was part of the restructuring, then this was Bernie's first big move, if so.... way to go Bernie! That's getting yerself noticed.


I'm thinking the PR for this is now in DNNA's favor, and it didn't cost them a lot (or did it?). They've got press reporting this all over. I the original "closed" thread, I speculated this could be the most brillant marketing move ever for ReplayTV... I'll never know if it was planned, but if it was.... GENIUS!


----------



## jameskollar

Ok, Replay has caved (as they should have). Kudos to DNNA/ReplayTV. 'Nough said. Close the thread.


----------



## SeeSpotRun

Quote:

_Originally posted by jones07_
*But people did not pay $499 after 12-17 *
Actually on 12/18 CompUSA was still charging $499.


SeeSpotRun


----------



## bobby_t1

Quote:

_Originally posted by SeeSpotRun_
*Actually on 12/18 CompUSA was still charging $499.


SeeSpotRun*
Actually they weren't. Price on display was $499, but 5504's rang up $149. I bought on on the 18th.


----------



## dewolfxy

Quote:

_Originally posted by newRTVuser_
*Additionally, I do not aggree with the posts here that say this is DNNA's sneaky way of keeping the bar high and making it difficult to prove that you deserve the service.
*
I was the one who posted about the "high bar". Maybe I can explain myself better. Who knows what went on at DNNA in the executive and legal meetings, but one possibility is this.


Step 1 - discussion of options. We could leave them active and cave now. No, that's too many units and people will keep going out and buying them before we can resticker all of them. We could stop letting them activate, make them call in. OK, let's do that. Now, let's start deactivating. Best case, most just return and some people pay. Worst case, people complain. This leads us up until the 22nd.


Step 2 - Starting around Christmas. OK, now we've gotten a large number of units that were returned, so we're better off. What should we do - well, we see that the complaints are very high on FW & elsewhere, and people are contacting their attorneys general, etc. Should we cave? We have to weigh the potential bad press against the number of people who will be returning their units. Let's keep the hard-line stance, and force some more returns.


Step 3 - AP article is released. OK, now we're getting bad press, we have to do something. What can we do? Well, we can allow all units to be reactivated. OK, let's do that now to abate some of the anger over this. Now, what should we do. Well, we have to let them have the activation. Let's give an interview to the WSJ reporter, spinning this as we're being the good guys, and we'll put a press release on our website. But the release has to be worded so that it doesn't seem like a blanket policy to allow anyone who buys a green-stickered unit today to try to sneak in. We'll apologize for the confusion caused, and say that anyone who was confused gets the free service.


Step 4 - Basically, anyone who calls gets their activation.


So my point is, the DNNA execs - while having made a big blunder by repricing right before Christmas, not informing CSRs, etc - may have been aware from the beginning that they would cave over this and give free service. But when they started deactivating people, and putting out the release saying "no free service", my estimate is maybe 50% of the units got returned. Who knows how many, I certainly returned 2 of my 4 (although I had only bought 4 because it was 2 RS and 2 CC, and I didn't know which were better). So in the end, the get many units returned (cutting their loss) and they also get some good press. I think it's a smart decision. I'm really pleased with it, and I've got a much better outlook of them than before (sorry for the longwindedness)


A side note: I gave one unit to my in-laws, kept one for myself. I was surprised at how fast my in-laws picked up on how to use it. They are really good at it already, and they love it! I'm really pleased, as they're pausing live TV and scheduling recordings, etc, all the time! It's a good testament to the product that they picked it up so easily.


----------



## Diode1

Quote:

_Originally posted by CarrieKirby_
*Hi, I'm a reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle looking for folks in my area who bought the $150 ReplayTV. Today the company says they will give 3 years free service to those who were confused by product labeling or were told they'd get 3 years service by the call center. Your reaction?


Please email me asap at [email protected] . must be by 3 p.m. Tuesday.


thanks!*
Carrie's article

Carrie Kirby, Chronicle Staff Writer
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl....DTL&type=tech


----------



## jmace57

Low end model?


The above post (SF Chronicle article) is the second article that I have seen that refers to Replay making a deal on the "low-end" model for $149.


I bought the 5080 model for $240. I haven't seen any reference in the Replay press release that says anythjing about the $149 model only.


Anyone know anything about that?


Regards,

Jim


PS: Mine was backordered and has just arrived at home - and me stuck at work!


----------



## bobby_t1

I got my activation email today! gonna check when i get home what my replay says..whether it indicates liftime sub or 3 year.


If a 3 year sub has been enabled, i wonder how they are going to handle the other messaging on the box which offers subscription for only 99 cents per month after the 3 years?


----------



## Protoguy

When did you sign up? I did it on the 20th through their web site but have not yet heard anything.

Quote:

_Originally posted by bobby_t1_
*I got my activation email today! gonna check when i get home what my replay says..whether it indicates liftime sub or 3 year.


If a 3 year sub has been enabled, i wonder how they are going to handle the other messaging on the box which offers subscription for only 99 cents per month after the 3 years?*


----------



## civy

I would recommend everyone be fair with ReplayTV here, and ask ReplayTV to be fair with you in return. An example is to ask them to request information in writing or by fax, if they ask you for anything in writing or via fax. ...I am getting a little tired of being far more forthright with them, then they are with me !!!


As an example: I asked the ReplayTV representative to send me their current terms via email or post office, which they originally said they would do. I never received so much as an email, so I called back. The latest ReplayTV position is their verbal should be good enough. I said that my verbal should be good enough with them as well. The CSR said No! ... CSRs said I HAD TO provide written response to them, to which I said they then had to provide a written request to me.


ReplayTV obviously sees a strong legal advantage to committing nothing in writing. ...I think someone said earlier 'What is good for the goose, is good for the gander'. ...So why isn't my honest proposal fair ?!?


----------



## toots

There are a lot of cameras in public places nowadays, taking pictures of you and everyone else who walks by.


Sometime, go out with your own camera, and take pictures of the cameras that are taking pictures of you and see what happens.


No one ever said that the playing field was supposed to be level.


----------



## ColdOne

Chalk up a victory for the opportunists and complainers. The suckers who try to deal fairly and honestly with retailers and manufacturers will wise up eventually.


----------



## bobby_t1

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*Chalk up a victory for the opportunists and complainers. The suckers who try to deal fairly and honestly with retailers and manufacturers will wise up eventually.*
Welcome to the forum ColdOne, but I don't think many people will welcome this as your first post.


Don't assume everyone who bought one of the $149 units are opportunists. If you read through this thread, there are many people that bought these thinking they would include 3 year service as told by retailers. It's not wrong for these people to get the 3 year service. I do agree that those people that are scheming ways to buy units RIGHT NOW and still get the 3 year service should not be entitled to it.


----------



## ColdOne

*Welcome to the forum ColdOne, but I don't think many people will welcome this as your first post.*


I know, but nothing has yet has annoyed me enough to bother commenting.

*Don't assume everyone who bought one of the $149 units are opportunists. If you read through this thread, there are many people that bought these thinking they would include 3 year service as told by retailers. It's not wrong for these people to get the 3 year service. I do agree that those people that are scheming ways to buy units RIGHT NOW and still get the 3 year service should not be entitled to it.*


I don't assume that all of them were opportunists. Some people were genuinely confused, naive, or just thoughtless. Some were obviously pissed because they thought they were getting a fantastic deal that didn't pan out. But should those people have been given a $300 bonanza because of an honest mistake on the part of the manufacturer? Many could have easily returned their units when they learned that service was not included. Others may have been slightly inconvenienced (e.g. having to disconnect it from their system, box it up and trudge back to the store) or even greatly inconvenienced (e.g. they mailed it to their dying grandfather who missed 60 Minutes for the first time in 40 years because his service was deactivated). But it's hard to imagine many were really hurt to the tune of $300 in damages.


But the vast majority of people, IMO, did, could or should have known that this was a pricing error. They should be responsible for their own mistakes, at least in part.


I think DNNA should have made some compromise, perhaps knock down the activation fee a bit or provide a free upgrade. But providing the activation for free does a disservice to everyone who paid the full and fair amount.


----------



## ColdOne

*If you read through this thread, there are many people that bought these thinking they would include 3 year service as told by retailers.*


Actually after a quick glance back through the thread, I didn't see anyone who can honestly say they were 100% sure that the $149 units included the service (but I may have missed them). But I wouldn't expect to as most of the consumers here are knowledgeable and have to realize that that price was way out of line with previous prices or current competitor prices and that there was no way Replay could make money on it.


There certainly are some people who might give so little thought to a purchase, but I really am having a hard time understanding what people were thinking when they bought these. How they rationalize the sudden huge price drop or what they think Replays business model would have been at those prices.


At the very least I would have thought Replay might have been about to go out of business or that they were massively revamping their product line. Either way I would have been very hesitant to buy one and certainly would have made sure it was easy to return.


When people suddenly buy 3 or 4 (or more) of these, you have to wonder. If they thought this was an honest and permanent price change from Replay, why the rush?


----------



## marors1

I have an interesting thought...What is going to happen to all of the people that felt lying about the price they bought the unit for to DNNA CS was the right thing to do.


If DNNA decides that all the people who want to keep their activation need to send in a receipt to prove date of purchase, and then they compare the price paid to the notes in their computers, wouldn't that be a grounds for disconnection?


I mean the people did lie to DNNA after all.


Outside of that, I don't know what to think, I did get one, and it is active, but I wasn't going to throw an almighty fit if DNNA didn't do the proper thing and stand behind their/their distributors screwup. I may have actually paid for the subscription, due to the fact I love my first ReplayTV, and I just thought this second one was a good deal.


There are a bunch of people that feel they are taking the high road by tearing up those who bought these. I won't pretend to know what the true costs are to Replay, and at this point I sure won't say they are or are not losing money on this deal, but I will say that I get real, legitimate deals on many things all the time, and I have even purchased things for more than 2/3 off their retail price.


I just can't understand the thinking that anyone who bought one of these is nothing more than a petty thief. I bought what I bought at the good price I got it, I wasn't sneaky about it, I didn't buy 10 and Eb-y them, I didn't need to call CS to activate it. It just worked as it was marked and advertised.


I surely hope that DNNA doesn't close down because of this (Remember I have another unit I paid full price for about 4 mos ago) but if it does, I really don't believe that messing up on pricing would be the ONLY reason that the company went under.


Sorry, just my ramblings...take them for what they are worth.



D


----------



## bobby_t1

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*I know, but nothing has yet has annoyed me enough to bother commenting.*
Well it shows you have registered in Jan 2004, so you are pretty new regardless of whether you posted between Jan 1 and now. I was just giving you a welcome message, not asking why you didn't post before now.

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*Some were obviously pissed because they thought they were getting a fantastic deal that didn't pan out. But should those people have been given a $300 bonanza because of an honest mistake on the part of the manufacturer?*
I'm confused by this. You don't see it as the manufacturer's fault that they reduced the terms of the service while many units being sold still said it included it? This is called "lying". Plain and simple. Sure, we could could have all just returned them and accepted it, but why shoudl we? DNNA has an obligation to provide the service that consumers paid for. DNNA can give an arbitrary date as to when the 3year offer was cut off, but that doesn't matter if retailers are still selling it as such. The retailer is DNNA's arm into the consumer world, so they represent DNNA here.


What if Ford dealership had an ad in the paper that said "$5000 off all vehicles, no exceptions". And when you went it, they said "Oh, i'm sorry, that's a misprint and mistake. That promotion was over well before that ad went to print. See ya." Dealers fault? Yes. Ford company's fault? Yes. The dealer represents the Ford company here and they shoudl be obligated to honor the advertised price and terms.

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_ *

But the vast majority of people, IMO, did, could or should have known that this was a pricing error. They should be responsible for their own mistakes, at least in part.*
Why should they *know* its a pricing error? Manufacturers put things on price markdowns all the time. Are you telling me that when Fry's has 120GB Western Digital Hard drives for $29.99 that is an error? They do sell hard drives at that price every so often and they are smokin deals. This is no different. If a consumer sees a price tag with the features next to it, consumer expects to get what is advertised. Not somethign different. And yes, consumer is entitled to it.

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_ *

I think DNNA should have made some compromise, perhaps knock down the activation fee a bit or provide a free upgrade. But providing the activation for free does a disservice to everyone who paid the full and fair amount.*
Ah, so are you a bitter $499 paying consumer?


----------



## newRTVuser

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*Welcome to the forum ColdOne, but I don't think many people will welcome this as your first post.


I know, but nothing has yet has annoyed me enough to bother commenting.*
And heaven forbid you would comment in an positive manner on anything. No need signing up and posting unless you have something to argue about, right?

Quote:

*I don't assume that all of them were opportunists. Some people were genuinely confused, naive, or just thoughtless


But the vast majority of people, IMO, did, could or should have known that this was a pricing error. They should be responsible for their own mistakes, at least in part.*
Responsible for their own mistakes? Who are you talking about? The consumer didn't make a mistake. The consumer bought a $149 replay that was clearly labeled as including 3-years of service. If the retailers misled them, then the retailer made the mistake. If the retailer wasn't informed of a change by DNNA, then DNNA made the mistake. If DNNA activated and then de-activated these units then DNNA made a mistake. How could somebody reading the words "3-years activation included" be making a mistake by believing that there was 3-years of activation included?

Quote:

*There certainly are some people who might give so little thought to a purchase, but I really am having a hard time understanding what people were thinking when they bought these. How they rationalize the sudden huge price drop or what they think Replays business model would have been at those prices.*
Are you completely insane? When you buy a gallon of milk, how do you rationalize the price you pay for that milk? Do you know how much it costs to produce that product? How much labor is involved? How many miles it was transported before it got into your cart? What the financial status is of the family of the worker that milked the cow, drove the truck, stocked the shelves?


Of course not. It's not the consumer's responsibility to study a parent company's financial reports, production schedule and bottom line before buying something. Who gives a rat's ass what Replay's business model is. What's the business model for cattle producers? Textile manufacturers? Trucking companies etc etc etc


Go away troll.


----------



## newRTVuser

Quote:

_Originally posted by marors1_
*If DNNA decides that all the people who want to keep their activation need to send in a receipt to prove date of purchase, and then they compare the price paid to the notes in their computers, wouldn't that be a grounds for disconnection?


I mean the people did lie to DNNA after all.*
LOL Who was giving away all the looney pills tonight?


Another first time poster. How amazing.



LOCK YOUR DOORS! THE TROLLS ARE OUT!!


----------



## tluxon

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_

*...If they thought this was an honest and permanent price change from Replay, why the rush?*
*
Touche'


[edit]

bobby_t1 & newRTVuser,


Knock off the rude attacks. BTW, your justifications are getting old and have been repeated over and over these past three weeks.


Tim*


----------



## civy

I think emotions run high on both sides of the fence here. I find it truly amazing how blindly one sided some of the established members have been. ...I guess there really is something to 'they didn't get the deal' or 'this reduces the value of what they have' panic.


I'm also surprised new members don't take it easy, and watch the forum interactions before diving in. I guess there is something to the 'the opportunists are so selfish' or 'they need to pay your dues first' thinking.


If you purchased mid december, we shouldn't be too smug about our great deals (I got my recent purchases for ~$160 new/$210new /$250used and consider myself quite lucky). My OPINION was and still is that anyone with oral or written documentation of service activation being included BEFORE ReplayTV's official posted change the afternoon of 22 Dec 04, should receive the 3 year activation, PERIOD. 23 Dec and afterwards is not as clear to me.


The fact CompUSA here in Albuquerque still has boxes with green stickers and CompUSA reps saying 'includes 3 yrs' is quite shocking. I may go buy another! ...If ReplayTV is truly paying attention, GO TO COMPUSA on Cutler in Albuquerque and FIX THIS!


I hope ReplayTV management is smart enough to learn from this mistake and ensure their future packaging is accurate. They should at least track all future shipments and packaging status by serial number, to stop any of the potential schemers here. ...A superior solution would STILL be new model numbers, especially considering their supply chain was supposedly emptied.


...Just hope there is no truth to rumor ReplayTV will start deactivating modified boxes. ...They really do track anyone that upgrades their hard drive, and written TOS allows them to terminate service. - HUMOR 


Once this dies down, I know we will see more of the mutually beneficial posts and community support return.


----------



## marors1

Troll....



OK, I guess if you think so, I have been reading in these forums since I got my first replay, and just never posted, it doesn't make me uninformed and I sure dont want to start a war over this.



No looney pills here, I just have never seen this particular angle on things and was wondering what others thought DNNA might do about it.


Sorry for seeming like a smart a-- or something, I was just thinking about that.



D


----------



## liunam

A strange thing happened to my Replay TV 5504 tonight. The unit crashed and when I rebooted it (by holding down the power button for at least 10 seconds), the activation reminder message appeared. It had been in activated status since Sunday. Then I clicked on the CONNECT NOW button, it went back to activated. Is this normal situation after a crash?


Now, my story is a little bit different from the most of the stories I've read here. I turned on my unit on December 30 because I was not home for the holidays and I did not have Ethernet cable to the lving room yet. I had the same call center experience as most (return the unit or pay $300, etc). I got a case number from them but it was for a different issue (could not connect to the Internet during setup - turned out that the culprit was the Web filtering software I installed in my gateway.)


Anyways, my unit was on grace period expiring 1/10/03. Then it just magically turned to "Activated (one time fee paid)" status last Sunday. I never got an email or a case number for the activation problem. First thing that came to my mind when I saw the reminder message was "uh-oh, back to square one..."


Do you think I should call their activation number and ask for a case number/email just in case? Or should I just wait until the dust settles and see what DNNS does?


----------



## ColdOne

Quote:

_Originally posted by marors1_
*Outside of that, I don't know what to think, I did get one, and it is active, but I wasn't going to throw an almighty fit if DNNA didn't do the proper thing and stand behind their/their distributors screwup. I may have actually paid for the subscription, due to the fact I love my first ReplayTV, and I just thought this second one was a good deal.


There are a bunch of people that feel they are taking the high road by tearing up those who bought these. I won't pretend to know what the true costs are to Replay, and at this point I sure won't say they are or are not losing money on this deal, but I will say that I get real, legitimate deals on many things all the time, and I have even purchased things for more than 2/3 off their retail price.


I just can't understand the thinking that anyone who bought one of these is nothing more than a petty thief. I bought what I bought at the good price I got it, I wasn't sneaky about it, I didn't buy 10 and Eb-y them, I didn't need to call CS to activate it. It just worked as it was marked and advertised.
*
I haven't said that everyone buying one is a petty thief. I'm just trying to understand the people who say they were really screwed by Replay here or why they feel Replay should be obligated to forfeit the entire activation fee. Certainly no one is required to clarify their opinions or justify their purchase to me, but if they choose not to then I reserve the right to continue to think they are just trying to take advantage of the system (at everyone else's expense).


In your case, I commend you for not being obnoxious about it, but I still don't understand why you feel entitled to the full $299 activation fee. Given that you have another replay and that you are familiar with the technology and the market, did you really think this was a serious offer?


There are varying degrees of unethical behaviour here. Some are trivial and some are egregious. But it is a slippery slope and consumers are starting to make outrageous demands and have impossible expectations. (This doesn't excuse the dishonest corporations, but it does harm the good ones.)


I do like your point about those who lied about the price. Unfortunately I doubt Replay would take a stand (and I'm sure those who lied would just say they had to to get what was rightfully theirs).


----------



## ColdOne

*Well it shows you have registered in Jan 2004, so you are pretty new regardless of whether you posted between Jan 1 and now. I was just giving you a welcome message, not asking why you didn't post before now.*


You don't have to register to view the forum, I only registered because of this thread (not to reply to it, but to send a PM to someone else).

*I'm confused by this. You don't see it as the manufacturer's fault that they reduced the terms of the service while many units being sold still said it included it? This is called "lying". Plain and simple. Sure, we could could have all just returned them and accepted it, but why shoudl we? DNNA has an obligation to provide the service that consumers paid for. DNNA can give an arbitrary date as to when the 3year offer was cut off, but that doesn't matter if retailers are still selling it as such. The retailer is DNNA's arm into the consumer world, so they represent DNNA here.*


This is not "lying" it is a called a "mistake." Crackpot conspiracy theories aside, there is absolutely no evidence that this was anything other than an honest mistake on their part. Should they do a little something to alleviate the inconvenience their mistake caused? Yes. Should they validate and thus encourage the preponderance of users who knowingly took advantage of this honest mistake? No.


You know what, let them "honor" the sticker. But the sticker didn't say anything about you not having to sit through a 5 minute ad barrage every time you turn the thing on does it? For those that got the free activation, they can put all kinds of advertising and gather all sorts of personal viewing info to help defray the cost.

*What if Ford dealership had an ad in the paper that said "$5000 off all vehicles, no exceptions". And when you went it, they said "Oh, i'm sorry, that's a misprint and mistake. That promotion was over well before that ad went to print. See ya." Dealers fault? Yes. Ford company's fault? Yes. The dealer represents the Ford company here and they shoudl be obligated to honor the advertised price and terms.*


This depends on whether it was an honest mistake or not. If the printer left off a decimal point and it was supposed to be $50.00 off then I wouldn't (and you shouldn't) hold the dealer responsible for anything other than the inconvenience of having to schlep down there. There are limits to such consumer protection laws, but it's somewhat fuzzy. If if it seems like an honest mistake (and the company doesn't happen to make those mistakes a little too often) and it is a significant difference (especially when the consumer should have known better), then even if the law agrees with you it is unethical to take advantage. Just as it would be unethical for them to take advantage of your mistakes.


*Why should they know its a pricing error? Manufacturers put things on price markdowns all the time. Are you telling me that when Fry's has 120GB Western Digital Hard drives for $29.99 that is an error? They do sell hard drives at that price every so often and they are smokin deals. This is no different. If a consumer sees a price tag with the features next to it, consumer expects to get what is advertised. Not somethign different. And yes, consumer is entitled to it.*


It may be an error or it may not be. Sometimes they advertise things for $0 (after rebate) too. If you know or have reason to believe that the price is a mistake then it is unethical to take advantage of that mistake.

*Ah, so are you a bitter $499 paying consumer?*


No, I have two replays and both were significantly more than that.


I certainly expect electronics prices to fall and don't have an issue when a new iPod comes out with a bigger disk two months after I bought mine, or when I can buy a PC twice as fast as mine for the same price a year later.


However, when people knowingly take advantage of other people's (or corporation's) honest mistakes it bugs me and it actually costs me money in the long run (because I try to act ethically). This is not envy or sour grapes. This costs real money to Replay which means they will eventually have to charge me more, put in advertising or something else to recover their profit margin.


Plus, it is hard enough to explain to my kids the difference between "lying' and just being mistaken. Now I also have to explain to them why they should treat faceless corporations fairly if all their friends don't bother. "Honesty is it's own reward, son." Or you could get a virtually free piece of really cool hardware. Hmm, tough sell.


When you get change for a twenty after you gave the cashier a ten do you gleefully run out of the store before they realize the mistake? Do you pat people on the back for hooking up "free" cable? ...


----------



## ColdOne

*Responsible for their own mistakes? Who are you talking about? The consumer didn't make a mistake. The consumer bought a $149 replay that was clearly labeled as including 3-years of service. If the retailers misled them, then the retailer made the mistake. If the retailer wasn't informed of a change by DNNA, then DNNA made the mistake. If DNNA activated and then de-activated these units then DNNA made a mistake. How could somebody reading the words "3-years activation included" be making a mistake by believing that there was 3-years of activation included?*


Most smart or educated consumers would and should have questioned it, especially for a $150 item. At this point no one can seriously argue that this was anything other than a pricing mistake and miscommunication between DNNA and the retailers. People who can honestly say that they were absolutely convinced that this was a serious offer did not act unethically. They may have been a bit clueless, however.


Are you saying that you had no doubts that the offer was genuine? Did you think Replay was coming out with a new product line with many more features, or what? Did you think it was some mad dash for market share (even though they would lose a lot of money on the box and never recoup that in other fees)? Oh, they lose money on every transaction, but they'll make it up in volume.


No, it's pretty clear you knew that it was a mistake and you were prepared that they might not offer service (although hopeful that they would). I imagine you're a bit upset for not having bought more of them now. I'm not saying you're a horrible guy, but you were clearly trying to take advantage of their mistake. If you made a mistake (and say, accidentally authorized a charge for $1499) would you graciously let them keep the money?

*Are you completely insane? When you buy a gallon of milk, how do you rationalize the price you pay for that milk? Do you know how much it costs to produce that product? How much labor is involved? How many miles it was transported before it got into your cart? What the financial status is of the family of the worker that milked the cow, drove the truck, stocked the shelves?*


Nope. But if I see a gallon of milk prices at 19 cents I won't just grab ten gallons and tell all my friends to rush over to the store that has miraculously produces such cost savings.

*Of course not. It's not the consumer's responsibility to study a parent company's financial reports, production schedule and bottom line before buying something. Who gives a rat's ass what Replay's business model is. What's the business model for cattle producers? Textile manufacturers? Trucking companies etc etc etc*


I still believe that consumers have some responsibilities. Rewarding people for being idiots and/or dishonest is wrong.


Can you not understand there is a difference between someone who knowingly took advantage of the situation and someone who just stumbled upon it. And why should the person who stumbled upon it be entitled to anything other than fair compensation for their inconvenience?


----------



## alreadyposted

i didn't paid 149 for my replaytv, i paid 134.99 knowing it was a mistake before and after the press release, i get service on all units now


----------



## bobby_t1

Quote:

_Originally posted by tluxon_

bobby_t1 & newRTVuser,


Knock off the rude attacks. BTW, your justifications are getting old and have been repeated over and over these past three weeks.


Tim [/b]
Tim: This is the first time I've defended either side in this thread. I didn't think I was being intentially rude, nor attacking. Just representing my viewpoint on the subject like everyone else is.

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_ *

When you get change for a twenty after you gave the cashier a ten do you gleefully run out of the store before they realize the mistake? Do you pat people on the back for hooking up "free" cable? ...*
ColdOne: Again you are assuming everyone in on this deal intentionally tried to rip DNNA off from the very start. The post may not be in this thread, but they are all over this forum -- people who jumped in on this PVR deal thinking it was legitimate. I read one users story about buying a PVR for himself and his mom and they've never had a PVR before and thought this was a great deal.


Do you tell these people I'm sorry your units were activated and deactivated.. tough luck?


I do agree with you about people intentionally trying to take advantage of this offer. However, I disagree with you completely on DNNA having to own up to their "mistake". They've made a mistake, and "sorry" just doesn't cut it.


If you expect the consumer to be completely forthright with these "faceless corporations", shouldn't the reverse be true as well and they honor their advertised price/service?


There's no reason to belabor this issue.. we get the point. You're pissed off.


----------



## tluxon

Quote:

_Originally posted by alreadyposted_
*i didn't paid 149 for my replaytv, i paid 134.99 knowing it was a mistake before and after the press release, i get service on all units now*
There are people who contribute to society and there are people who drain it. Thank you for being honest about which kind you are.


Tim


----------



## Belial6

DNNA tried to trick customers with the Hardware and "Service" being separate. Yes, yes, I know that Tivo is unethical too, and that Replay was just trying to compete, but when you try to trick consumers, and your scam goes bad, I have no sympathy for you.


For those of you that are about to say that DNNA was NOT trying to trick consumers, just do a search, and you will see thread after thread about how "J6P" thinks that 299 isn't 300, and how they perceive Tivo as cheaper because the don't think about the fact that they have to pay for the service too. There intent was to make consumers think the unit costs $149, hoping they wouldn't think about the $300 "service". They screwed up. Sometimes the price of tricking people by making things complicated is that you loose track of things ourself.


----------



## icecow

Maybe they should change their price to $451.01 and have a italicized slogan underneath reading:

_The average person watches 4 hours of TV shows and 2 hours of TV commercials a day. If $451.01 sounds expensive to you your a f'n idiot._


cow


----------



## allaboutmojo

I might return my two replayTV's now because this thread/forum is getting more entertaining everyday. Actually since I am reading this thread and not watching TV I need to keep my ReplayTV's so that I don't miss any shows.


HAHA


----------



## winter

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*If you read through this thread, there are many people that bought these thinking they would include 3 year service as told by retailers.


*
Here's an concept: Who cares what you think or what you thought was in the heads of the people who bought these unit?
I don't care what you think I knew at the time of purchase

I don't care what you think is a fair price for this product

I don't care if you don't think that returning the product isn't a big deal for me

I don't care what you think of the ethics/morals/scruples of people who got in on this deal

If you are not going to add anything new to a discussion why bother posting at all? How many times do we have to cover the same ground? Its over - the people who got in on this deal have gotten what they paid for. Get over it, stop whining and find something else to complain about.


----------



## jones07

And the people how got in on the "Deal" also needs to shut-up about it and move-on. You guys are defending your "deal" just a bit to strongly. I wonder why


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by tluxon_
*There are people who contribute to society and there are people who drain it. Thank you for being honest about which kind you are.


Tim*
You post this after you chastize a member for making a personal attack?


Way to go, tluxon


----------



## rad

Why doesn't the mod just close this thread since Replay has said what they're going to be doing now???


----------



## Crrink

*ColdOne*, you must not be reading through these threads very carefully. It's been repeated and documented many times - AND confirmed by DNNA, that many people did everything in their power to determine whether this was a legitimate deal or not.

EVERY INVOLVED PARTY OF AUTHORITY CONFIRMED THAT IS WAS LEGITIMATE.


What is so difficult to understand about that?


There was a big rush to buy units on 12/17 because it was quite obvious that stock would be quickly depleted at those prices.

This is quite similar to the run on DirecTiVo's that happened a couple of months ago at Circuit City when they dropped the price from $99 to $49. I got on the phone to all of my friends with DirecTV as fast as I could and you know what? Those who thought they'd grab one on the way home from work discovered that they were out of stock.

That's what happens when a hot deal breaks. You jump on it immediately, or you will probably miss it.


Your hostility toward us is completely misplaced. While I believe you when you say that it's not sour grapes on your part, you do admit that you're angry at us primarily out of your own self interest. You're worried that RTV is going to have to extract more money out of you because of their mistake.

I suggest two things:

-Get mad at RTV - they're the people who were so incompetent that they couldn't even inform their own customer support staff properly

-Realize that your moralizing rings awfully hollow since it's coming from self interest and not from anything objective.


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by jones07_
*And the people how got in on the "Deal" also needs to shut-up about it and move-on. You guys are defending your "deal" just a bit to strongly. I wonder why *
I wonder how you'd react if I accused you of stealing from RTV?

Hey, they aren't making any money yet, so you and everyone else have obviously not paid enough for the service.

Now imagine I'm serious.

You'd be pretty incensed too.


----------



## jones07

This is how I would react to being accused of stealing from a bunch of yoo hoo's on the Internet. That I don't know nor ever will meet. I would stop reading their post OR stop coming to this Forum. And just use my $149 "deal" and watch TV..... move on. Most of you never posted in this RPTV forum before the "deal" so I know it can't be to hard to stop posting/reading this forum after you got your "Deal"...........Move-on. Or just stop posting/defending Your "deal". You Won ! DNNA caved. Now Post questions about your new dvr or help others with theirs. Become part of the RPTV Fanboys here.........Move on from this "DEAL"



Edit for poor spelling an grammar.....as usual


----------



## Crrink

Sorry, jones07, I didn't mean to ruin your forum.

I hope it's o.k. with you if I still post on the TiVo forum....I did pay full price for both of mine.....


----------



## tluxon

Crrink, I don't remember anyone accusing you of stealing from RTV, so why are you being so defensive? I think you've made your point very clear that you never questioned the validity of the "deal" because you exercised due diligence in determining price and activation. Pretty much all of us who paid much more for our Replays way back when have stated we feel DNNA should give you your activation. Don't be "incensed".


Believe me, there has been plenty of anger directed at DNNA, and we also don't take too kindly to those who blatantly admit that they knew it was a mistake and are willing to lie (and even encourage others to lie) to get their free service - THAT is stealing.


Besides, when I do what's _right_, it doesn't matter _what_ other people think.


Cheers,


Tim


----------



## allaboutmojo

OK...I have posted a new thread whcih I need answers to...maybe someone reading this post can provide input since most of us reading this have a 5504....thanks

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=348583


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by tluxon_
*Crrink, I don't remember anyone accusing you of stealing from RTV, so why are you being so defensive? I think you've made your point very clear that you never questioned the validity of the "deal" because you exercised due diligence in determining price and activation. Pretty much all of us who paid much more for our Replays way back when have stated we feel DNNA should give you your activation. Don't be "incensed".


Believe me, there has been plenty of anger directed at DNNA, and we also don't take too kindly to those who blatantly admit that they knew it was a mistake and are willing to lie (and even encourage others to lie) to get their free service - THAT is stealing.


Besides, when I do what's right, it doesn't matter what other people think.


Cheers,


Tim*
Well, I think that's the general tone of many of the posters who say that anybody who bought at $149 should have known better for whatever reason.

Since I'm part of that group, I do feel that I'm part of the target of such statements, and yeah, obviously, it gets under my skin.


I don't buy into platitudes like 'oh, why are you being so defensive?' and 'when I do the right thing I don't care what anybody thinks.' You do too, everybody does. Not everybody would spend as much time typing on a forum like this (and maybe THAT'S my problem ), but I'm being defensive because I'm being attacked, and given my druthers, I'd prefer people think well of me.

So that's why I spend time arguing.


Maybe I should just ignore it.


----------



## winter

Quote:

_Originally posted by jones07_
*This is how I would react to being accused of stealing from a bunch of yoo hoo's on the Internet. That I don't know nor ever will meet. I would stop reading their post OR stop coming to this Forum. And just use my $149 "deal" and watch TV..... move on. Most of you never posted in this RPTV forum before the "deal" so I know it can't be to hard to stop posting/reading this forum after you got your "Deal"...........Move-on. Or just stop posting/defending Your "deal". You Won ! DNNA caved. Now Post questions about your new dvr or help others with theirs. Become part of the RPTV Fanboys here.........Move on from this "DEAL"*
Wow, if there was ever a case of the pot calling the kettle black. This thread was created to discuss this specific situation. If you don't want to read it, why don't YOU stop reading it? Must be plenty of more interesting threads for you to read and post to...


And as far as moving on - funny how you direct that at Crrink when its clear that ColdOne is the one who showed up and starting trolling this thread and bringing back all the previous hashed and rehashed crap that we are all sick of.


I don't expect you to respond - I'm sure you're going to just take your own advice, ignore an internet yah hoo like myself and "stop posting/reading" this thread....LOL


----------



## jones07

I never take my own advice, it's usually worthless


----------



## bshor

From reading the posts, it looks to me like ColdOne is posting politely, and just stating his opinion. He isn't the one accusing others of "trolling".


Ad hominem attacks are poor excuses for argument.


----------



## Runny

The "ONE SINGLE" thread has turned too personal as was the fate of all previous threads on this topic, and I feared that my post would get lost among the heated arguments. So here I am creating a new thread.


I called DNNA (India) this morning about my 5 5040's which are currently activated. I expressed my concern to them that they would remain activated past the 30 day Radio Shack return deadline, then be deactivated again. She confirmed that any unit which is currently activated WILL NOT BE DEACTIVATED IN THE FUTURE. She went on to say that the one unit of which I read her the serial number has a lifetime (not 3 year) activation.


So anybody who has a currently activated replay, you should be fine. If you are the least bit skeptical, I would recommend calling them on the activation line to verify that your activation will not be revoked. If you find out anything that contradicts what I've posted here, please let us know!


Thanks,


Runny


----------



## winter

Quote:

_Originally posted by bshor_
*From reading the posts, it looks to me like ColdOne is posting politely, and just stating his opinion.*
From the moderator, first post in this thread:
Quote:

This is it. Post factual information here, no personal attacks or *simple opinions.*
Quote:

_Originally posted by bshor_

He isn't the one accusing others of "trolling".


Ad hominem attacks are poor excuses for argument
Repeating the same personal opinions over and over again are a poor excuse for a discussion as well. That ColdOne posted politely doesn't change the fact that it doesn't belong here or that it amounts to trolling. Sorry if that word had negative connotations for you but I think that exactly describes whats going on here.


----------



## toots

Is that a fact or just opinion?





(Just being a smart-ass)


Facts are just opinions that you can get someone else to defend.


----------



## DeathFromAbove

Well I have been reading this thread and others in the Replaytv forum since I heard the news of this. I just finished catching up on this particular thread and the last two pages have been all garbage. People fighting with people about whether they think they stole from DNNA or if they were just getting in on a good deal. Personally these last two pages have nothing to do with the original purpose of this thread and I am sick of reading these messages. This thread should either concentrate on issues come across in receiving activation and service from DNNA or be closed.


----------



## DeathFromAbove

Thanks Runny, this is useful information, you didn't happen to ask specifically about any 5504 units, did you?


----------



## Runny

Quote:

_Originally posted by DeathFromAbove_
*Thanks Runny, this is useful information, you didn't happen to ask specifically about any 5504 units, did you?*
No I didn't, but if somebody does call about 5504's, it would be good to hear from them.


- Runny


----------



## madSkeelz

I think Justin knows that if he closes this thread, at least 2 more will replace it. Better to keep it all in one big mess.


----------



## GooberedUp

Quote:

_Originally posted by Runny_
*The "ONE SINGLE" thread has turned too personal as was the fate of all previous threads on this topic, and I feared that my post would get lost among the heated arguments. So here I am creating a new thread.


I called DNNA (India) this morning about my 5 5040's which are currently activated. I expressed my concern to them that they would remain activated past the 30 day Radio Shack return deadline, then be deactivated again. She confirmed that any unit which is currently activated WILL NOT BE DEACTIVATED IN THE FUTURE. She went on to say that the one unit of which I read her the serial number has a lifetime (not 3 year) activation.


So anybody who has a currently activated replay, you should be fine. If you are the least bit skeptical, I would recommend calling them on the activation line to verify that your activation will not be revoked. If you find out anything that contradicts what I've posted here, please let us know!


Thanks,


Runny*
Unfortunately, the track record is not good for what the CSRs say as being reliable. Hopefully, this latest information is, since things are heading towards a firm resolution. But, I still have that little niggling doubt in my mind. That will probably take a while.


Also, I would wager that all these so-called 3-year activations are lifetime activations.


----------



## Runny

Quote:

_Originally posted by GooberedUp_
*Unfortunately, the track record is not good for what the CSRs say as being reliable.*
Agreed...so everybody should call and verify their own units and *write down your case ID*.

Quote:

*Also, I would wager that all these so-called 3-year activations are lifetime activations.*
I agree.


----------



## jay_k

That's definitely not a final answer, DNNA hasn't even released an official press release yet with a clear final decision.


----------



## x10guy

Quote:

_Originally posted by Runny_
*The "ONE SINGLE" thread has turned too personal as was the fate of all previous threads on this topic, and I feared that my post would get lost among the heated arguments. So here I am creating a new thread.

Runny*
So true. The "One Single Thread" is pretty much useless now. Most of the useful info is in the beginning.


Thanks for the info. I hope everything you said turns out to be true. Lifetime would be great!


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by jones07_
*I never take my own advice, it's usually worthless *
  

Too funny, jones07!


----------



## BeefStu

woo hoo, in before the lock


PS, my cats breath smells like cat food and you're all a bunch of Volvo-driving, latte-drinking, sushi-eating, body piercing, Hollywood-loving, etc. etc.


----------



## alreadyposted

Quote:

_Originally posted by tluxon_
*There are people who contribute to society and there are people who drain it. Thank you for being honest about which kind you are.


Tim*
there are winners and there are losers, these morons made a mistake and i won


----------



## ophus

Losers often win, unfortunately.


----------



## ColdOne

*ColdOne: Again you are assuming everyone in on this deal intentionally tried to rip DNNA off from the very start. The post may not be in this thread, but they are all over this forum -- people who jumped in on this PVR deal thinking it was legitimate. I read one users story about buying a PVR for himself and his mom and they've never had a PVR before and thought this was a great deal.*


I really don't know how many times I have to say that I think there were certainly some people who were innocently bought their units; I just haven't seen them posting here.

*Do you tell these people I'm sorry your units were activated and deactivated.. tough luck?*


In this case it was "a great deal." One that was too good to be believed as they found out. If the activation wasn't worth it for them they should have returned their units with no questions asked and received a sincere apology from DNNA and the retailer. Ideally there would also be some compensation in the form of store credit or some other way to help make up for the mistake. If their case was ununusual (if they were greatly inconvenienced, i.e. more than just having to unplug the unit and shove it into a box) then they would be within their rights to complain and perhaps get the full authorization.


Are you saying you fall into this category of consumer? I have no problem with those who were really duped complaining to get compensated for the hassle and confusion (and perhaps embarrassment). At this point I wouldn't even ask those who knew better to voluntarily forfeit their activation. However, it is completely unreasonable to have demanded the complete activation when you knowingly or strongly suspected that this was a pricing error. That is just flat out dishonest and any ethicist would agree. Using other peoples misfortune as a platform for getting a personal windfall is reprehensible.

*I do agree with you about people intentionally trying to take advantage of this offer. However, I disagree with you completely on DNNA having to own up to their "mistake". They've made a mistake, and "sorry" just doesn't cut it.*


I never said they should just say sorry. Even if they didn't offer any compensation this would have been a huge public relations fiasco for them. They should have made a reasonble compromise with reasonable consumers (i.e. those who weren't trying to exploit the situation).

*If you expect the consumer to be completely forthright with these "faceless corporations", shouldn't the reverse be true as well and they honor their advertised price/service?*


I expect both parties to be honest and reasonable. When a pricing error occurred I don't expect the consumer to demand compensation far in excess of the inconvenience they suffered. I'll ask again what your expectations would be if you accidentally authorized a charge of $1499 for the unit. If you tell me you wouldn't ask for the money back, then I'll grant that DNNA should fully honor the mispriced or mislabelled boxes.

*There's no reason to belabor this issue.. we get the point. You're pissed off.*


You repeatedly demonstrate that you don't get the point. This is a fairness and common decency issue and has absolutely nothing to do with how much I paid for my units or whether Replay will go under because of this fiasco.


----------



## ColdOne

*DNNA tried to trick customers with the Hardware and "Service" being separate. Yes, yes, I know that Tivo is unethical too, and that Replay was just trying to compete, but when you try to trick consumers, and your scam goes bad, I have no sympathy for you.*


So the evil manufacturer justifies dishonest and unethical behavior. Microsoft writes buggy software so I should feel free to pirate Office. Record companies charge too much for a CD so that justifies sharing MP3s on the internet.


Got it.


----------



## ColdOne

*Here's an concept: Who cares what you think or what you thought was in the heads of the people who bought these unit?*


If you don't care then why are you replying? Just gleefully say "I got mine!" and move on. If you don't care about the issues of simple ethics and common decency, then that's fine. This forum is not about that, so I have no problem if they shut down the thread. But that still doesn't make it right.

*If you are not going to add anything new to a discussion why bother posting at all? How many times do we have to cover the same ground? Its over - the people who got in on this deal have gotten what they paid for. Get over it, stop whining and find something else to complain about.*


You may be right that everyone has entrenched views that will not be budged. However, since people are still spouting completely nonsensical and contradictory statements the issue certainly hasn't been covered fully (unless you want to say those people are idiots and beyond all reason).


The people "who got in on this deal" got far more than they paid for and what they rightfully deserved. Well, most of them did, anyway. Rest assured, that if I wanted to find ways to scam manufacturers and retailers there is no shortage of opportunities.


----------



## Crrink

*ColdOne*, you do not understand contract law.


----------



## toots

When did "IANAL" status ever stop someone from ranting on the internet?


----------



## ColdOne

*ColdOne, you must not be reading through these threads very carefully. It's been repeated and documented many times - AND confirmed by DNNA, that many people did everything in their power to determine whether this was a legitimate deal or not.

EVERY INVOLVED PARTY OF AUTHORITY CONFIRMED THAT IS WAS LEGITIMATE.*


No, that's not what I've read at all. I've seen some people who tried to verify the deal, but they received little help from retailers and often got contradictory information. It sounds as if most people were not so concerned about whether this was a sincere offer as to make sure there wasn't some hidden catch they were missing and Replay was trying to pull a fast one. I haven't heard anyone with any confirmation from a retailer or Replay that explained the sudden price drop.


People were only listening to what they wanted to hear. Of course, I don't have the transcripts, but most of the "confirmations" seem to be along the lines of.


"So, if I have the sticker then that means service is included, right."


"Right."


*What is so difficult to understand about that?*


Look, you know in your heart that you were fully convinced that this deal was serious and not a pricing or packaging mistake. If you just say that, I'll take your word for it.

*There was a big rush to buy units on 12/17 because it was quite obvious that stock would be quickly depleted at those prices.

This is quite similar to the run on DirecTiVo's that happened a couple of months ago at Circuit City when they dropped the price from $99 to $49. I got on the phone to all of my friends with DirecTV as fast as I could and you know what? Those who thought they'd grab one on the way home from work discovered that they were out of stock.

That's what happens when a hot deal breaks. You jump on it immediately, or you will probably miss it.*


These are different situations, but I would need a lot more context to be sure. However, I have little sympathy for people who are rushing to get a fantastic deal (either at the expense of the manufacturer or other consumers).


The difference is in rushing to take advantage of a special promotion or clearance sale and rushing to exploit a mistake by a retailer or manufacturer before they can fix it.


Again, only you know which category you fall in. But would have killed you to keep the product in the box a few days to make sure? People who find a packet of cash in the middle of the street would be wise not to go out and spend it that same day.

*Your hostility toward us is completely misplaced. While I believe you when you say that it's not sour grapes on your part, you do admit that you're angry at us primarily out of your own self interest. You're worried that RTV is going to have to extract more money out of you because of their mistake.*


Every time other people act unethically to get an advantage it hurts all those who choose to act ethically. In some cases it hits closer to home. That doesn't make the act any more reprehensible, but I may only comment on those where I have a tiny stake.

*-Get mad at RTV - they're the people who were so incompetent that they couldn't even inform their own customer support staff properly*


They screwed up, as every company and individual does from time to time. However, that does not justify people taking advantage of the situation.

*-Realize that your moralizing rings awfully hollow since it's coming from self interest and not from anything objective.*


You think I have the free time to go off on a rant because this is costing me 18 cents (or whatever my share of paying for all the free activations will be)?


No, my rant is against the continuing decline of consumer responsibility and the sense of entitlement and pampering people have come to expect. This is a serious problem in our society, this particular case is trivial.


When people try to take such advantage and do so discreetly and maybe feel a bit guilty about it, that's human nature. When people are so brazen as to think it's their right and loudly proclaim their justification it is another.


----------



## ColdOne

*From the moderator, first post in this thread:
This is it. Post factual information here, no personal attacks or simple opinions.*


Which is why I waited until page 15 before posting any comments. If you'd been following along you would have noticed that the "personal attacks and simple opinions" started long before I stepped in and that the moderator of which you speak has long since thrown up his hands and repealed that initial request.

*Repeating the same personal opinions over and over again are a poor excuse for a discussion as well. That ColdOne posted politely doesn't change the fact that it doesn't belong here or that it amounts to trolling. Sorry if that word had negative connotations for you but I think that exactly describes whats going on here.*


Call it trolling if you will, but I still don't see that people have answered the fundamental questions or that anything has been resolved. For example it still seems to be some question that this was anything other than an honest pricing blunder. Which is absurd. And it also seems to be open that people who knew or had strong suspicions that this was pricing blunder were still acting ethically when they bought their units and demanded free activation. Also absurd.


But what do you expect from a troll?


----------



## ColdOne

Quote:

_Originally posted by Crrink_
*ColdOne, you do not understand contract law.*
I don't claim to. I do know about logic and I do know about ethics, which turn out to be completely useless when it comes to the law.


I'm not going to argue over whether DNNA would win if lawsuits were filed and I know that it would not be cost effective for them even if they did.


----------



## Beaner

God, I could use a "ColdOne" after reading all this crap.


----------



## Crrink

*ColdOne*,

I think I summed this up pretty well in a post in the other thread.

Read this if you're curious how both the law and accepted business ethics lead me to conclude that RTV ought to honor the contracts they made with us, and for a good example of how I honor such contracts in my own profession.



Out of curiosity - and believe me, I'm honestly not trying to start a fight, but I'd like to know how you feel about the 'no cooling off' period that is common for car purchases in most states? When I was young and dumb, and needed a car in a hurry, I bought a used truck from a very slimy used car lot. The deal didn't go well, I paid too much, blah blah blah. Do you think the dealer owed me any consideration after I signed on the dotted line? I can tell you that the dealer sure didn't! 


My feeling both then and now was that I should've been smarter, more careful, and less emotional. I didn't blame the slimy dealer for my mistakes, and I won't accept blame for RTV's.


----------



## icecow

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*No, my rant is against the continuing decline of consumer responsibility and the sense of entitlement and pampering people have come to expect. This is a serious problem in our society, this particular case is trivial.
*
I agree with the above statement and am guilty to a degree.


There's two sides to that coin and no clear answer.


I bought something online from officemax using a $50 off $250 coupon. It came shipped damaged. I went to the local officemax and the guy shut me down. Told me I'd have to call the 800 number and let them handle the return. He told me they wouldn't exchange it at the store, they didn't have that model anyway... The central message to my simple inquiry was "No, No, No".



800 number experience(just skim read this part):

>followed up same day (12/17) was put on hold for 40 min

>was routed a few times and magically hung up on

>called back, waited 40 more min. Got a person who was nice and issued a new delivery and for the old one to be picked up(all free). It took about 15 min

>just before the closing of the call I was disconnected. This time the cause was likely to be my cell phone. I was using my cell phone because If I'm going to have to wait 40 min going to get in my car

>called again, waited about 25 min(still in car), finished the transaction giving my CC number so now my CC was charged twice. I have no problem with that except trust.

>btw, each time I called I had to be routed meaning I had to tell my story several times a call

>Had to deal with UPS hastle. Cased out my own house the day I believed the UPS guy would come and lucked out. He gave me the new box and I told him to take the old box. He said he didn't have an order to take the old box. Two hours later just as I was leaving he came back and said he found the order to take the old box. My lucky day twice in a row.

>I decided not to open the new box until the old box got back and was credited to my CC. After a few days I decided I was being paranoid and opened the new box.

>Got CC statement and found it was not credited back.

>called officemax 800 number again. Don't remember how long I was on hold. I'd have to guess only 5-10 on this one. I was basically told that the neccary department had be sent a message and that I should not check back for at least 3-4 days. This was my prompt to hang up the phone. I don't mind this part...except the matter of trust. If I never noticed the charge had never been removed I would have been out $220.

>called yet again, now about january 5, and the recording told me due to the holiday the hold may be *3* min or more. After that I was put on hold. I heard nothing.. no music, nothing for 25 min. It was torture. I didn't know if I should hang up or what. Finally I hung up and called back. Got the same "3 min or more" wait time and on hold again.

>this time I waited about 20 min and someone answered. They told me My CC was credited the amount on 12/31. Thank god

>I still have to check my credit card to verify.


All of these phone calls were plesant ones. Well, in the last phone call I did point out that a recording that tells that you may "wait 3 min or more" followed by complete silence for 25 min was basically torture and asked him to forward my request of doing something about that.

*the point is it took me alot more time to handle a simple return then it did to write this post. Even worse I would have been cheated $220 extra if I didn't watch my finances like a hawk. It's making me unethical in a way because now if I buy something from officemax and drop it on the way home, I'm going to turn around and get a refund and deny having any part in the damage until they make up some 'points' with me. It trails into being guilty of what you say about customer responsibility. There have been times that I have returned things I broke myself to companies that never wronged me. Often just to feel guilty, go into some self-reevaluation, then get burned by the same company at a later date, or not.


Another irony is that when I sent the old one in I kept a $0.25 adaptor tip thingy that they wanted $15 on their web page. That was my 'gift' to myself for the wasted trip to officemax and two first wasted phonecalls. Wow, now I'm dragging the manufacture into all of this too, will the insanity ever end?*


Note: I didn't exaggerate the wait times. It was christmas season. They claim "they had a much higher call volume then expected" BS.. sales were slow for those sort of stores this year. I believe they might have kept the low staff to twart returns.


cow


----------



## ColdOne

*I think I summed this up pretty well in a post in the other thread.

Read this if you're curious how both the law and accepted business ethics lead me to conclude that RTV ought to honor the contracts they made with us, and for a good example of how I honor such contracts in my own profession.*


I hadn't been following that thread and it seems like an interesting debate on ethics that I'll have to catch up on and respond over there. Thanks for the pointer.


*Out of curiosity - and believe me, I'm honestly not trying to start a fight, but I'd like to know how you feel about the 'no cooling off' period that is common for car purchases in most states? When I was young and dumb, and needed a car in a hurry, I bought a used truck from a very slimy used car lot. The deal didn't go well, I paid too much, blah blah blah. Do you think the dealer owed me any consideration after I signed on the dotted line? I can tell you that the dealer sure didn't! *


I'll answer this one here. But I fail to comprehend how I could possibly take such an interrogation personally as I have full confidence in my opinions and where they are inconsistent or ill-informed I would welcome a correction. People who get pissed off at such a question probably are insecure in their beliefs.


I think the "no cooling off" period is often misunderstood and misstated, as there is really no such thing AFAIK. There is nothing that prevents a cooling off period for cars, but there is also no law that explicitly grants that right.


The reason there is no "cooling off period" for cars, IMO, is that it is too expensive for dealers to deal with whimsical and poorly thought out decisions and that too many consumers would abuse the policy.


So it makes sense that there is no such law for new cars (although for other types of purchases it may indeed make sense).


However, while there is no such law that doesn't make it ethical for car dealers to exploit those who are less knowledgeable or who cave in to their high pressure tactics easily. And given the number of people who are confused about this, dealers should be required to make absolutely clear that all sales are final and ask the consumer to sign a form saying "There is NO COOLING OFF PERIOD in Florida!"

*My feeling both then and now was that I should've been smarter, more careful, and less emotional. I didn't blame the slimy dealer for my mistakes, and I won't accept blame for RTV's.*


That's a personal philosophy that I don't agree with. It sounds like "take advantage of whatever you can before the other guy can do the same to you."


I prefer the philosophy that I won't take advantage of your honest mistake and you don't take advantage of mine. But it only takes a few people to ruin it for everyone else which is why we need a ten thousand line contract to buy a VCR.


----------



## ColdOne

*the point is it took me alot more time to handle a simple return then it did to write this post. Even worse I would have been cheated $220 extra if I didn't watch my finances like a hawk. It's making me unethical in a way because now if I buy something from officemax and drop it on the way home, I'm going to turn around and get a refund and deny having any part in the damage until they make up some 'points' with me. It trails into being guilty of what you say about customer responsibility. There have been times that I have returned things I broke myself to companies that never wronged me. Often just to feel guilty, go into some self-reevaluation, then get burned by the same company at a later date, or not.


Another irony is that when I sent the old one in I kept a $0.25 adaptor tip thingy that they wanted $15 on their web page. That was my 'gift' to myself for the wasted trip to officemax and two first wasted phonecalls. Wow, now I'm dragging the manufacture into all of this too, will the insanity ever end?*


This is what I call "practical ethics." Just about everyone does this to a certain extent and it often ends up being more practical than doing everything by the book.


Of course, it would be impossible to go through everyone's life to calculate the total balance; i.e. to see if they have been screwed more than they've screwed back so they can feel justified sticking it to DNNA. But some people take it to ridiculous extremes (as mentioned before). Guilt is the regulating factor here as you describe. If we take away that (and people feel no ounce of remorse for ripping a CD or taking advantage of a pricing error, for example) then the system deteriorates.


The other thing that people fail to realize is the costs involved of such deceptive behavior, so they often make bad choices. People gripe about the tedious return policies (at say Fry's), but stores have implemented those policies because too many people were returning stuff bought elsewhere, or with missing pieces. And people complain about horrible customer service, yet they are unwilling to pay the extra for good, knowledgeable service.


----------



## winter

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_


Call it trolling if you will, but I still don't see that people have answered the fundamental questions or that anything has been resolved. For example it still seems to be some question that this was anything other than an honest pricing blunder. Which is absurd. And it also seems to be open that people who knew or had strong suspicions that this was pricing blunder were still acting ethically when they bought their units and demanded free activation. Also absurd. [/b]
I see - so you've taken it upon yourself to hijack this thread and turn into an ethical debate. I believe calling you a troll is an understatement.


----------



## ColdOne

Quote:

_Originally posted by winter_
*I see - so you've taken it upon yourself to hijack this thread and turn into an ethical debate. I believe calling you a troll is an understatement.*
Which thread were you reading? The 300 or so posts before mine were purely factual and opinion free, I suppose?


I'm not hijacking it, I just came along for the ride. I'm just hoping that the moderators don't remove the engine while the vehicle is in motion or renege on the lifetime supply of gas they promised us. Because they would be "LYING" if they did and they have made an explicit contract that they would not.


----------



## x10guy

Jleavans,

Can't we just start a new thread now?


In terms of good information, this one is no longer that useful.

It started out good, it stopped being informative about 5-6 pages ago.


Those who want to debate can still post in this thread. Those who just want to stick information can start in the new thread.


----------



## avs149

Coldone,


Your time and effort can be well spent if it was directed to Enron, that's the real big scam. What's the matter people make a couple thousand dollor.


For replaytv to success, they should not rip off us. That's the only way they can reach the mass market and be profitable. If you think 149 is too bad for replaytv, think apex can sell a dvd player for $40 and that make them success. If you think program guide is worth $13 a month, then why AOL only charge $23 for its service? For $299, they charge much more than Microsoft charge for windows!


Apple is lost to Microsoft because it's greedy. If replaytv/tivo can't enter the mass market, with this $149 heat, I'm sure Apex or someone like Apex will be attracted to and success in DVR market one day.


----------



## ColdOne

*For replaytv to success, they should not rip off us. That's the only way they can reach the mass market and be profitable. If you think 149 is too bad for replaytv, think apex can sell a dvd player for $40 and that make them success.*


I love the logic. Yes, they are doing so well ripping us off and overcharging us, which is why they've endured two bankruptcies (and counting). How long have DVD players been out? How many are sold? How complicated is the hardware and software? You can't seriously think that Replay is making any money when a retailer sells its box for $149.

*If you think program guide is worth $13 a month, then why AOL only charge $23 for its service? For $299, they charge much more than Microsoft charge for windows!*


These are simply ridiculous comparisons.


If it's not worth it to you then don't buy it or don't subscribe to the service. Better yet, why not start your own business since the boxes and service are so cheap to provide; you'd make a fortune!


Or just wait for a pricing error so you can get the product at what YOU think is a fair price. Better yet just liberate one off the back of a truck. Go on, you deserve it. Those greedy bastitchs.

*Apple is lost to Microsoft because it's greedy. If replaytv/tivo can't enter the mass market, with this $149 heat, I'm sure Apex or someone like Apex will be attracted to and success in DVR market one day.*


Fine, let them enter the market. But it is only because Replay, Tivo and others are paving the way that there is a market to enter. And Dell is the one who will probably put them out of business, not Apex. It is far easier to commoditize an existing product than create a whole new product area.


----------



## Crrink

*ColdOne*, the main reason I said I wasn't trying to fight is because my question took this thread even further off topic than it already was. I didn't want you to think I was throwing a ridiculous example at you as a way to distract from the argument - the cooling off thing kind of popped into my head, and so I got curious as to what you thought about it.

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*That's a personal philosophy that I don't agree with. It sounds like "take advantage of whatever you can before the other guy can do the same to you."


I prefer the philosophy that I won't take advantage of your honest mistake and you don't take advantage of mine. But it only takes a few people to ruin it for everyone else which is why we need a ten thousand line contract to buy a VCR.*
Well, I'd prefer that philosophy too, but as you've noted, it's a little too late for it.

Human nature is what it is, and that's why I said that I think it's up to me to be smart and watch out for myself. Yeah, it's wrong for a car dealer to 'take advantage' of someone, but really, barring any threat, physical or otherwise, how exactly do you go about defining the point at which the consumer was 'taken advantage of.'

Sure we probably all know anecdotal stories that illustrate this, but good luck finding a way to identify the point that good salesmanship crosses the line, let alone writing a law to prevent it.


When you choose to do certain things, you implicitly choose to accept some level of risk. When I walk into a car dealership I have to be prepared for a salesman to highlight all the great features of his product and downplay the features of the competition - kind of like what happens in here when someone asks about TiVo 

If I can't handle that, then I'd better take someone with me, or buy from carsdirect. We really can't oblige a salesman to highlight his competitions strengths....can we? Besides, he might honestly feel that they aren't legitimate strengths - like on the TiVo forum, some people actually believe that having a free space indicator would be BAD. Crazy, huh? Or like over here, some people think having a To Do list is bad....maybe I'm still too TiVo-ized, but I really like being able to see what my DVR has planned for the next few days.

I wish RTV had a status bar too. 


When RTV chose to get into the business of selling DVR's, they agreed to take certain risks - like if they sell something at the wrong price, they will have no recourse with the customer.

It's a fair cost of doing business, and one that is well known, so it shouldn't have been difficult to prepare for.


As I've said before, if Replay had apologized, and asked us all to do them a favor and take the units back, I might have some sympathy for them, but instead they first responded with silence, then tried to take the hard line.

You don't get to do that when you're wrong.

You don't get to do that when you're the one who screwed up.


It's been corrected now, but only because of the pressure exerted by the consumers.

If the hard line approach had succeeded, they would've used illegal means to minimize their damages and would never have admitted any fault in the matter - how ethical is that??


----------



## ColdOne

*Well, I'd prefer that philosophy too, but as you've noted, it's a little too late for it. Human nature is what it is, and that's why I said that I think it's up to me to be smart and watch out for myself.*


There is no reason why you can't act ethically and protect yourself at the same time. Knowingly taking advantage of another persons mistake is not ethical. Period.

*When you choose to do certain things, you implicitly choose to accept some level of risk. When I walk into a car dealership I have to be prepared*


Within reason. We can and do regulate such businesses as much as we can to eliminate deceptive practices. It's not easy or even possible to regulate every little thing, which is why the law tries to make some reasonable assumptions and weed out the most egregious and most often abused cases.

*When RTV chose to get into the business of selling DVR's, they agreed to take certain risks - like if they sell something at the wrong price, they will have no recourse with the customer. It's a fair cost of doing business, and one that is well known, so it shouldn't have been difficult to prepare for.*


This is not about whether Replay did proper risk management in order to survive such an eventuality. Even if they had bought an insurance policy against such an occurrence (which they very well might have) the windfall that certain people received comes out of somebody's pockets.

*As I've said before, if Replay had apologized, and asked us all to do them a favor and take the units back, I might have some sympathy for them, but instead they first responded with silence, then tried to take the hard line.*


Right. I've seen about two people in this thread who I think would have willingly returned their units if Replay had sheepishly called them the next day and informed them of the pricing error. You don't say that you would have done so. Would you? If your retailer had called you up, apologized for the mistake and asked you to return it?

*You don't get to do that when you're wrong.

You don't get to do that when you're the one who screwed up.*


I really don't see their actions as being so heavy handed. I think they were confused and unsure how to deal with the situation and if they were quick they might have come up with a clever compromise. None of us know all the details, but it appears that the retailers should indeed have shared much of the responsibility (as well as many of the consumers). At worst RTV was perhaps naive and probably didn't understand how difficult it is to get the retailers to make any significant change.


On the other hand, far too many consumers went completely nuts and responded totally irrationally.

*If the hard line approach had succeeded, they would've used illegal means to minimize their damages and would never have admitted any fault in the matter - how ethical is that??*


They've agreed to make amends because of consumer pressure and the fact that they can't piss off the retailers who are probably just as culpable. Not because they really deserve all the blame. I really have not seen them say "Gosh, we forgot to tell the retailers that service was no longer included. Oops."


It is not unethical for them to refuse service to those who knowingly took advantage of the pricing error. Whether they legally would have been allowed to is not clear.


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*But the vast majority of people, IMO, did, could or should have known that this was a pricing error.*
why? why don't you think $1.5/gal for gas isn't a pricing mistake? or 10c/kwh of electricity isn't a pricing mistake? or $5 a big Mac isn't a pricing mistake?

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*They should be responsible for their own mistakes, at least in part.*
that's precisely what people are demanding rptv to do: they made a pricing mistake and it is time for rptv to take your advice and be responsible for their own mistakes.


----------



## newRTVuser

Quote:

_Originally posted by millwood_
Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_ *

But the vast majority of people, IMO, did, could or should have known that this was a pricing error.*


*why? why don't you think $1.5/gal for gas isn't a pricing mistake? or 10c/kwh of electricity isn't a pricing mistake? or $5 a big Mac isn't a pricing mistake?

*
*Quote:*

_Originally posted by ColdOne_ *

They should be responsible for their own mistakes, at least in part.*



that's precisely what people are demanding rptv to do: they made a pricing mistake and it is time for rptv to take your advice and be responsible for their own mistakes.
Don't bother trying to get any logic out of ColdOne. I've already tried those same questions.


Just keep in mind that when he was asked about his first ever post here, he freely admitted that the only reason he posted is because he was annoyed.

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_*

I know, but nothing has yet has annoyed me enough to bother commenting.*



And he seems to think that every purchase made by every consumer must come after an intensive study of the parent company's business model and financial workings.

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_*

I really am having a hard time understanding what people were thinking when they bought these. How they rationalize the sudden huge price drop or what they think Replays business model would have been at those prices.*



AND he seems to think that buying a ReplayTV with 3-years of service for $149 was a MISTAKE!

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_*

the vast majority of people, IMO, did, could or should have known that this was a pricing error. They should be responsible for their own mistakes*



If buying a Replay with 3-years of service for $149 was a "mistake", I hope I make many more "mistakes" like that throughout my life.


Perhaps I made a "mistake" when I bought a gallon of milk for $1 last week instead of the $3 that the store up the street charges

(I didn't get the 19-cents a gallon milk which _ColdOne_ tried to say was the same as this deal. If that actually *was* similar to *this* purchasing situation, then we would have all gotten Replays with service for about $30 each)


Perhaps I made a "mistake" when I bought a multi format DVD burner for $39.99 instead of the MSRP of $181 or the cell phone battery for $1.99 instead of $30 or the USB cable for $.99 instead of $20!


It's clear that the only reason ColdOne signed up was to troll this forum because he's annoyed (his words) that people bought $149 Replays with activation.


But I'm sure he's happy being "mistake free" and spending (in his words) "significantly more than" $499 on each of his two Replays.


Three words: sour grapes troll


----------



## Crrink

*ColdOne*,

You're right, I didn't say I'd have returned my unit if they'd asked nicely. I'm honestly not sure what I would've done, and I've thought about this a lot. I think that I probably would've kept it since I believe it is within my legal right to do so, but I'd have a LOT more favorable view of the company, and I certainly wouldn't be here arguing with you guys who are upset by the mistake.

I wouldn't be quiet out of shame, but I would be quiet out of respect and empathy.


DNNA is part of a really big company that has been doing business in consumer electronics for a really long time. They should have known better. There is no excuse for an error this big.

I can't recall anything similar happening with either Denon or Marantz, so I don't know why it happened with DNNA, but in any case, dealing with retailers shouldn't have presented a problem to this team. There's no way I'm buying the naive argument.


This ain't rocket science.


Besides, if you believe their latest press release and the executive who was quoted in the WSJ article, they're no longer trying to imply that this entire problem was created by the retailers. I'm glad to see them own up to some of the blame. I'd love to know exactly what did go on, but I sincerely doubt we ever will. I'll be hoping, though


----------



## Jeff D

Wow, I was surprised to see icecow quote and respond to coldone.... i had thought they were one in the same.


Maybe the cow is responding to himself to throw some off, but the "post count pad" response techinque used by icecow seems to also be used by coldone. This is indeed a *unique* style to post.


Both items are cold, one ice cold, the other should be ice cold. The cow is singular and therefore equal to 1.


From this I can only concluded...

ice = cold

cow = single cow (one)

therefore

icecow = coldone


----------



## icecow

Quote:

_Originally posted by x10guy_
*Jleavans,

Can't we just start a new thread now?
*
Conspiracy theory:

DNNA's invisible AVS member 'ReplayAgent' recruited Jleavens by offering him 22 Replays to come on as ColdOne and psych people out.


Jleavens IS the ColdOne!        




cow


----------



## icecow

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jeff D_
*Wow, I was surprised to see icecow quote and respond to coldone.... i had thought they were one in the same.


Maybe the cow is responding to himself to throw some off, but the "post count pad" response techinque used by icecow seems to also be used by coldone. This is indeed a unique style to post.


Both items are cold, one ice cold, the other should be ice cold. The cow is singular and therefore equal to 1.


From this I can only concluded...

ice = cold

cow = single cow (one)

therefore

icecow = coldone*
Ha, I posted the Jleaven conspiracy thing before I even saw yours, a claim that helps support your theory. No, I'm not ColdOne. I'm more of a Lizardboy type (out of lack of better word) then a ColdOne type.


hmm, I haven't posted in the last week or so. cold=ice, single cow=one (whatever). use new 'bold' quoting style to 'throw people off'. ambitious. Your convincing me! but nah, I stand on the other side of the fence on the issue, it would be hard to hide my grammar patterns and tone.


Nah. I don't go for it. I find no joy in using moral factoids to support a position, which I think he and others are doing. Stupid humans like to take an issue, polarize it, take a side, and argue that side till it's beat to death. We are all guilty of that. Thats not me. I'm all over the place. perfectly willing to admit to my ommissions, oversights, and willing to pre-emptively disclose any lack of expertise when I post on an issue, for which I get alot of flack.


That was a good rant. What was the subject?


Oh yeah, I'm not ColdOne


cow


----------



## ColdOne

*why? why don't you think $1.5/gal for gas isn't a pricing mistake? or 10c/kwh of electricity isn't a pricing mistake? or $5 a big Mac isn't a pricing mistake?*


If gas is $1.50 this week and $0.50 next week, then I just might question it. If it's been around $1.50 to $2.00 for the last 3 years I wouldn't question it. Do you have any more challenging questions?


But I don't see your point. Intelligent and honest consumers think twice when a product's price drops by 2/3 overnight. If you have any conception of what it costs to make the product and provide the service then you should have been even more cautious.


And I don't quite see why you keep harping on this point. Just say that you really, honestly thought that this was a real offer. Heck as a special offer just for you, I won't even grill you on how you could have thought they would make money with this offer or what their secret strategy for profit was.


BUT, the argument that some old blind lady wandered into Circuit City to buy a gift for her dying grandchild and was hoodwinked by RTV somehow justifies you getting a $300 windfall just doesn't cut it.


I would feel bad if she didn't get the deal she thought she was getting. But I wouldn't feel an ounce of remorse if they didn't offer you anything other than a willingness to take back the box. Unless you can tell me that you really, really were sure that this wasn't just a price error, of course.

*that's precisely what people are demanding rptv to do: they made a pricing mistake and it is time for rptv to take your advice and be responsible for their own mistakes.*


Who says they shouldn't be responsible? Being irresponsible would be not allowing people to return the devices, or making it difficult to do so. At the very least they should have accepted the device with whatever cables you could find and the remote stuffed into a garbage bag. Don't bother finding the box, and you can even keep the batteries.


But frankly I don't see that you did anything to deserve the free service. Maybe I'm wrong. Tell me that you drove 60 miles in the snow to pick the thing up and that it took you half a day to reconfigure all your components and set it up. Of course, that's if you really, really, really were sure that the deal was as described in the first place.


----------



## icecow

Man, he's on right now. If ColdOne is me, I have a SERIOUS skitzo issue.


Jeff, when you accused me it made me think of icecow2000, but I don't think this dude is any of my former suspects.


cow


----------



## ColdOne

Quote:

_Originally posted by Crrink_
*ColdOne,

DNNA is part of a really big company that has been doing business in consumer electronics for a really long time. They should have known better. There is no excuse for an error this big.

I can't recall anything similar happening with either Denon or Marantz, so I don't know why it happened with DNNA, but in any case, dealing with retailers shouldn't have presented a problem to this team. There's no way I'm buying the naive argument.


This ain't rocket science.


Besides, if you believe their latest press release and the executive who was quoted in the WSJ article, they're no longer trying to imply that this entire problem was created by the retailers. I'm glad to see them own up to some of the blame. I'd love to know exactly what did go on, but I sincerely doubt we ever will. I'll be hoping, though *
So are they idiots or are they really, really clever? People can't seem to make up their minds on that. They choose whichever fits their argument best that day.


I don't really know their corporate structure, but I have no problem believing that the guy whose job it was to communicate this price and service change is not the same guy who has been doing pricing for Denon for the last twenty years. Do their receivers have a sticker on them promising free installation or a checkbox in their standard "price change" worksheet for "MAKE SURE THE PRODUCT DOES NOT HAVE A FREE SERVICE STICKER ON IT!"?


Although for his sake, I hope it was as he then might just have the track record to keep his job. I also question whether DNNA has ever tried anything like this before; I don't know of any other products where they have such complicated pricing and licensing issues. Clearly if they knew exactly what they were doing they would have hit upon the right pricing model long ago and wouldn't keep changing it every 6 months.


So I'm still waiting to hear one plausible theory for how they could have thought deliberately mispricing the product could have been anything but a disaster.


Why not just go with the simplest and only really plausible theory that they just made an honest and careless mistake, compounded by the retailers ineptitude and were taken advantage of by a significant number of very vocal consumers?


The fact that they are taking the heat has nothing to do with whether they are completely at fault or not. They just have to bite the bullet. Blaming your customers even if they all are complete idiots or devoid of all ethics is not a strategy for corporate success.


----------



## ColdOne

Quote:

_Originally posted by icecow_
*Jleavens IS the ColdOne!        
*
Nah, jleavens actually has something useful to contribute to the forum.


----------



## ColdOne

Quote:

_Originally posted by newRTVuser_
*Perhaps I made a "mistake" when I bought a multi format DVD burner for $39.99 instead of the MSRP of $181 or the cell phone battery for $1.99 instead of $30 or the USB cable for $.99 instead of $20!*
It's really quite simple and I don't know how many times I can state this to you guys and have you continue to evade it, but I'll try once more.


Just say that you really, really were sure this was an honest deal and then justify to yourself how this inconvenience justifies this $300 windfall.


Is that the case or not? Forget all the irrelevant stuff aboutthe sweet deals you got for OTHER things or whether you should have known about government milk subsidies or whatever.


I argue that IN THIS CASE you problem did and should have known. YOU know for sure what you were thinking, so just say so. Is that so hard?


----------



## icecow

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*Nah, jleavens actually has something useful to contribute to the forum.*
Now I'm really confused, but just for the record, I had to trash you a little bit because I didn't want a rumor to start that you were me. You came the same time I was gone.


If you knew I don't contribute anything to this forum you are likely someone that has seen more then 4 of my posts but no neccasarily i guess. I almost had it figured out there.


and I do contribute to this forum. It's just that the people who appreciate me are afraid to speak up.


ok, enough self-deprication


I outta go back and read your posts and trash all your bad arguements


cow


btw, your milk argument is flawed in a way that is a bit ironic. Shortly ago, milk prices plummeted allowing grocery stores to buy it at a great discount. The price of milk in the stores did not fluctuate accordingly (the price did not drop much in the stores). It's a reminder that market conditions take presidence setting prices dispite how cheaply a product can be brought to the market.


----------



## ashVID

To those of you willing to do ANYTHING for your "deal" go watch "The House of Sand and Fog"


You guys are pathetic, return your unit and get on with your life. In an era of terrorism and instability what could be worth such a strain and hassle? It was a mistake... most people who bought it knew it, if you say otherwise you are in serious denial. Maybe you guys will WIN after spending hours and hours and thousands of SOMEBODY'S money... will it be worth it? If people lose their jobs? If stock value drops? If the box you fought so hard for is now useless?


Sorry but my life is more significant than that and I have a shred of integrity that most of you DEAL seachers lack.


Corporate responsibility?? Blah blah... DNNA is not Enron...


If you are just a [email protected] who was looking to cash in (even for yourself and not to resell) on this ERROR, just say so, quit playing that violin of corporate abuse, accountability, and little ol innocent you who thought it was legit. You sound desperate and downright asinine. You sound like Charlie Brown's teacher... WHA WHA WHA WAHHHHHH


Those of you pursuing this are not upholders of what is just, you are JERKS who would kick an old lady upside the head if it would save you five cents.... go watch the movie "Tucker" and see what happens when we start SUING innovators...


Cliff Notes version:

1. Watch "The House of Sand & Fog"

2. enjoy your life and GET OVER IT

3. DNNA did this on accident, they are not ENRON

4. Watch "Tucker: The Man & His Dream"



ash =o)




PS if you flame me or send me hatemail it only furthers my point


----------



## ashVID

Let me state ONE MORE TIME that this deal started and was perpetuated on the internet, not thru advertising or in-store pricing, where was the baot & switch??? In fact, the prices for the first several hours were still $499 though it was ringing up cheaper at some stores. In an effort to circumvent the abusive A-holes who would have tried to pricematch the price drop (NOT DUE FOR A COUPLE DAYS) Circuit City dropped the price in error, not realizing or overlooking that the new pricing structure did NOT include activation....


Go back to the original threads in the deal sites, within MINUTES of the original posts it was posted that this was most likely a pricing error and did NOT include activation.


I know... I know... you dont care... you called first, you got milk for $1.49, you were just walking by Circuit City, you bought one for your grandma to help run her kidney machine, you saw ReplayLyndon on the grassy knoll, your purchase was a contract, you are now allergic to commercials, dropping the price of the unit and activation to HALF what just the activation is just made PERFECT sense, AND YOU WANT YOUR DARN DEAL NO MATTER WHAT!



ash =o)


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*If gas is $1.50 this week and $0.50 next week, then I just might question it. If it's been around $1.50 to $2.00 for the last 3 years I wouldn't question it. Do you have any more challenging questions?*
so the judgement should be based on weekly price changes? why? I am not expecting a whole lot but please make one intelligent argument there as to why weekly is the right yard stick? why not annually? not eveyr 100 years? afterall, it is just a blink of eyes in the grand scheme of things.


also, look at how much Shell or BP or Mobile is charging for the same oil overseas, and you ought to take a clue how underpriced gas is at $1.5/g.


Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*But I don't see your point.*
I am sorry, but this is not the free university of AVS.


----------



## icecow

Quote:

_Originally posted by ashVID_
*You guys are pathetic, return your unit and get on with your life. In an era of terrorism and instability what could be worth such a strain and hassle? It was a mistake... most people who bought it knew it, if you say otherwise you are in serious denial. .....


.....Sorry but my life is more significant than that and I have a shred of integrity that most of you DEAL seachers lack.



If you are just a [email protected] who was looking to cash in (even for yourself and not to resell) on this ERROR, just say so, quit playing that violin of corporate abuse, accountability, and little ol innocent you who thought it was legit. You sound desperate and downright asinine. You sound like Charlie Brown's teacher... WHA WHA WHA WAHHHHHH


...you are JERKS who would kick an old lady upside the head if it would save you five cents.... go watch the movie "Tucker" and see what happens when we start SUING innovators...


Cliff Notes version:

1. Watch "The House of Sand & Fog"

2. enjoy your life and GET OVER IT

3. DNNA did this on accident, they are not ENRON

4. Watch "Tucker: The Man & His Dream"



ash =o)*


----------



## winter

Quote:

_Originally posted by ashVID_
*You guys are pathetic, return your unit and get on with your life. In an era of terrorism and instability what could be worth such a strain and hassle? It was a mistake... most people who bought it knew it, if you say otherwise you are in serious denial. Maybe you guys will WIN after spending hours and hours and thousands of SOMEBODY'S money... will it be worth it? If people lose their jobs? If stock value drops? If the box you fought so hard for is now useless?*
Strain and hassle? Spending hours and hours? Maybe you will win? I have no idea what you are talking about unless you are referring to the hours spent here talking about it

*Earth to ashVID - Did you miss the announcement on their home page? They will honor the 3-years sticker on the boxes for customers that were confused. The battle is over and we already won. Those that bought $150 Replay are sitting with them activated without any more work required - they activated them all on Monday...not sure what you are rambling on about...the only person that seems to be in denial is you - this deal is done*


----------



## winter

Quote:

_Originally posted by ashVID_
*Let me state ONE MORE TIME that this deal started and was perpetuated on the internet, not thru advertising or in-store pricing, where was the baot & switch??? In fact, the prices for the first several hours were still $499 though it was ringing up cheaper at some stores. In an effort to circumvent the abusive A-holes who would have tried to pricematch the price drop (NOT DUE FOR A COUPLE DAYS) Circuit City dropped the price in error, not realizing or overlooking that the new pricing structure did NOT include activation....*
Really? You know all that for a fact? Its funny that Ingram dropped their price on the 16th - I guess they must have been worried about pricematching too, huh? Here's a tip - instead of stating things as a fact, why don't you put a big IMHO in front of your posts because its clear that you are spouting on about things that you are just guessing about and from where I'm sitting your guesses look pretty weak.


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*So are they idiots or are they really, really clever? People can't seem to make up their minds on that. They choose whichever fits their argument best that day.


I don't really know their corporate structure, but I have no problem believing that the guy whose job it was to communicate this price and service change is not the same guy who has been doing pricing for Denon for the last twenty years. Do their receivers have a sticker on them promising free installation or a checkbox in their standard "price change" worksheet for "MAKE SURE THE PRODUCT DOES NOT HAVE A FREE SERVICE STICKER ON IT!"?


Although for his sake, I hope it was as he then might just have the track record to keep his job. I also question whether DNNA has ever tried anything like this before; I don't know of any other products where they have such complicated pricing and licensing issues. Clearly if they knew exactly what they were doing they would have hit upon the right pricing model long ago and wouldn't keep changing it every 6 months.


So I'm still waiting to hear one plausible theory for how they could have thought deliberately mispricing the product could have been anything but a disaster.


Why not just go with the simplest and only really plausible theory that they just made an honest and careless mistake, compounded by the retailers ineptitude and were taken advantage of by a significant number of very vocal consumers?


The fact that they are taking the heat has nothing to do with whether they are completely at fault or not. They just have to bite the bullet. Blaming your customers even if they all are complete idiots or devoid of all ethics is not a strategy for corporate success.*
I've never proposed anything other than the people at DNNA responsible for this are complete and utter morons.

I haven't proposed any conspiracy theories at all, and I don't believe this fiasco was created on purpose.


Why would you want the morons responsible for this fiasco to retain their jobs? They've proved enough incompetence that even a public school would be able to fire them.....I think......


In my mind there is a difference between a simple and honest mistake - "Oh no, I put the decimal place in the wrong spot! Call the retailers!!" and one made out of gross negligence.


Allowing either mistake to trickle that far down the retail chain means that you take your lumps and make the best of it.

DNNA tried to not do this in the beginning, they seem to indicate they're going to do this now.

Better late than never.


----------



## Crrink

Sorry, *ashVID*, but I don't think you have a single shred of evidence for the wild course of events you relate.

If you do, please share with the rest of us.


If you do go read the original FW thread you'll see that, yeah, we all knew that this was one amazing price. Yeah, we all had reservations until all parties of authority confirmed that this was a legitimate deal.


Just so you know, the Internet is, legally, a form of advertising.

That's why stores don't have to honor the prices they post on their websites.


Okay, you can go back to feeling superior now, thanks for checking in.


----------



## NearlyGod

After seeing what this topic has evolved into, I only have 1 worthwhile comment to add:


Don't any of you people have jobs?


----------



## jones07

Some people steal time from their bosses/employers an surf the net when they should be working


----------



## ophus

It's hard to get all of those great deals if you don't surf the web all day on your employers time.


----------



## alreadyposted

just bought a few more this morning (for ebay), all activated without problem (i think its some returns during this fiasco) thus all showing one time fee paid


so aside from re-stickering these things, i think DNNA shouldn't let stores sell these open boxes as is because some already come with activation


----------



## tluxon

Looking at how this thread has digressed, I'd guess that not a single one of you who have criticized the way DNNA is managed could even get a job there, let alone run it. If you were that valuable to any company, you wouldn't be wasting so much time arguing here.


----------



## winter

Quote:

_Originally posted by tluxon_
*Looking at how this thread has digressed, I'd guess that not a single one of you who have criticized the way DNNA is managed could even get a job there, let alone run it. If you were that valuable to any company, you wouldn't be wasting so much time arguing here.*
Well you got at least one thing right - you would be guessing.


----------



## toots

I've got a build running right now.


Am I allowed to post while it's running?


----------



## NearlyGod

Quote:

_Originally posted by tluxon_
*Looking at how this thread has digressed, I'd guess that not a single one of you who have criticized the way DNNA is managed could even get a job there, let alone run it. If you were that valuable to any company, you wouldn't be wasting so much time arguing here.*
You forgot your smilie face. Just think happy thoughts and move on. The whole situation appears to be over, can't we just welcome the new RTV owners and return to a the way of the old (last month) AVS forum where the only person who we complain about is icecow?


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by tluxon_
*Looking at how this thread has digressed, I'd guess that not a single one of you who have criticized the way DNNA is managed could even get a job there, let alone run it. If you were that valuable to any company, you wouldn't be wasting so much time arguing here.*
Ooh, Mr. Personal Attack strikes again!

I won't profess to know how valuable I could or could not be to DNNA. but I will say that I've never, in my professional career, made a mistake like the one they made, and in my line of work there is plenty of potential to make huge mistakes.

Lucky for me, trading stocks really isn't all that difficult.


----------



## tluxon

Now we're name calling, are we? You guys are a lot smarter than me - I'll just let you guys take this thread further out to sea. Enjoy!


----------



## newRTVuser

Quote:

_Originally posted by ashVID_
*Let me state ONE MORE TIME that this deal started and was perpetuated on the internet, not thru advertising or in-store pricing, where was the baot & switch???*
Jeeze, are we just going to make stuff up now? I may have been pointed to the Radio Shack webpage by somebody on the internet, but to claim that they weren't advertising these things at $149 incl activation is a complete and utter falsehood.


The $149 price including service was *clearly advertised* on Amazon.com, RadioShack.com (and probably CircuitCity, although I didn't see it with my own eyes) and is *STILL advertised that way on Buy.com* so don't go claiming that this wasn't the advertised price.


Go http://www.buy.com/retail/category.asp?loc=17658 and scroll down to the Replay 5504 listing and you'll see that *as of January 9th 2004* it clearly says that *$149* is the *One low price for hardware and service!*

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*Just say that you really, really were sure this was an honest deal and then justify to yourself how this inconvenience justifies this $300 windfall.*
How what "inconvenience justifies theis $300 windfall"? The "inconvenience" of participating in this thread? Of dealing with people like you? Hell yeah. I'm not forced to deal with you to reap the benefits of my $149 Replay. I just can't sit quitely while people toss out completely bogus and irrational arguements and insults. And you're the king baby.


Now tell me again about how getting milk for 19-cents a gallon is just like this Replay deal.


----------



## ophus

I have seen that buy.com page and it does not imply that service is included for the price of $149.95, you are reading that into it. Further more if you look at the detail page of the product it describes it with easy language even you can understand.


----------



## GooberedUp

Quote:

_Originally posted by ophus_
*I have seen that buy.com page and it does not imply that service is included for the price of $149.95, you are reading that into it. Further more if you look at the detail page of the product it describes it with easy language even you can understand.*
Please analyze for me how there is no implication there.


----------



## ColdOne

Quote:

_Originally posted by icecow_
*Now I'm really confused, but just for the record, I had to trash you a little bit because I didn't want a rumor to start that you were me. You came the same time I was gone.
*
I think you are confused.


Unless you are stating that you are me, then I don't see how I trashed YOU with my statement at all. Since I'm pretty sure that I am not you, I can't see as how you could be me. And since jleavens is not me, it's possible he could be you and therefore that you do contribute something positive to the forum.


----------



## ophus

One low price for hardware and service is a completely different statement, from the line that the price is on. I read it that the hardware is 149.95, then later in the ad there is another statement saying that, there is one low price for hardware and service which is described in detail on the product page, if anyone has bothered reading that. Some people might consider 450 a low price for hardware and servvice since it is a price drop and makes it cheaper than it's competitor.


----------



## ColdOne

Quote:

_Originally posted by icecow_
*btw, your milk argument is flawed in a way that is a bit ironic. Shortly ago, milk prices plummeted allowing grocery stores to buy it at a great discount. The price of milk in the stores did not fluctuate accordingly (the price did not drop much in the stores). It's a reminder that market conditions take presidence setting prices dispite how cheaply a product can be brought to the market.*
I'm not sure I see how this makes a difference. You say the consumer prices didn't change, so it is irrelevant to the discussion. Except that one of the reasons retailers don't immediately and drastically lower their prices is that consumers typically aren't prepared for it. Yes, some people can't control themselves and will just scarf up as many as they can possibly use. But many will hold back a bit and just maybe wonder if this isn't some of that "mad cow" milk they've been hearing about. Either way, consumers will be royally pissed when the prices get raised back to their normal levels.


If any decent store is going to do something like that (reduce prices by 2/3) and it is on the level then they would have a big advertisement, at least a big sign in the window and probably some indication of the reason. They would also inform their staff of the big price cut because people are going to ask about it.


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by ophus_
*One low price for hardware and service is a completely different statement, from the line that the price is on. I read it that the hardware is 149.95, then later in the ad there is another statement saying that, there is one low price for hardware and service which is described in detail on the product page, if anyone has bothered reading that. Some people might consider 450 a low price for hardware and servvice since it is a price drop and makes it cheaper than it's competitor.*
Dude, you're reaching.

Really, really reaching.


Any reasonable person would assume that the Buy.Com page advertises an activated 5504 for $149.95. It's really bad since you can add it to your cart from that page without reading the detail page where they get it right.


My best guess is that Buy.Com updated the detail page, but forgot about this one.

Shoddy, shoddy work.


----------



## ophus

Yea your right I may be reaching, but it's no smoking gun like some are trying to make it out to be.


By the way Antnjen hows the double identity crisis going, are you making any headway with that or are you still talking to yourself?


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by ophus_
*Yea your right I may be reaching, but it's no smoking gun like some are trying to make it out to be.


By the way Antnjen hows the double identity crisis going, are you making any headway with that or are you still talking to yourself?*
??Is that directed to me?

If so, I'm Crrink here and on the TiVo forums, I'm Crank on the FW and Anandtech forums, and I've never had any other username here ever.

I'm 100% ok with jleavans or David Bott confirming this and posting whether I'm telling the truth or not.


I don't know who Antjen is, but if he sounds like me, he must be one intelligent, witty dude!


----------



## ColdOne

*so the judgement should be based on weekly price changes? why? I am not expecting a whole lot but please make one intelligent argument there as to why weekly is the right yard stick? why not annually? not eveyr 100 years? afterall, it is just a blink of eyes in the grand scheme of things.*


Wow, yet another attempt at evading the issue. Did you have suspicions that this was a price error or not!?


Does reason mean nothing to you? It doesn't seem more reasonable to look at price changes over a few weeks than it does over 100 years? This is just ridiculous hyperbole that serves no purpose.


For you to truly believe what you are saying would mean that you wouldn't blink an eye and certainly not raise a question if the milk you are buying rings up for $150. This is all about reasonable people acting reasonably. Not someone cooking up an incredibly obscure scenario or taking a simple argument to a ridiculous and unwarranted conclusion.

*also, look at how much Shell or BP or Mobile is charging for the same oil overseas, and you ought to take a clue how underpriced gas is at $1.5/g.*


This is a fine question to illustrate my point. If an American goes to Europe and tries to buy gas they will be shocked at how much it costs (after they figure out the metric system, that is), which is as it should be. But you aren't really suggesting that oil companies are losing money for every gallon of gas they sell are you? Prices on gas elsewhere are much higher because of the huge taxes they impose. There are certainly many hidden costs to our oil (mideast instability, pollution, ...), but those are far removed from the cost to oil companies and/or gas stations.


The bottom line is that if gas goes to 50 cents in one day or goes to 4 dollars in one day then you should probably question it (unless you've taken an overnight flight to France or Iraq, that is).


To play dumb when it suits you is self-serving consumer greed. "You gotta get yours before I gotta get mine."


----------



## toots

Are you guys still at it?


Why hasn't one of you won the argument yet?


----------



## Crrink

Cuz HE'S being unreasonable!


----------



## millwood

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*rubbish deleted*
well, i am too busy enjoying my $149 replaytv than lecturing you.


yeah, I like my replaytv and especially that low, low price of $149.


and the fact that there is nothing you can do to change it.


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*...snip...

Wow, yet another attempt at evading the issue. Did you have suspicions that this was a price error or not!?

...snip...
*
We all thought it was a pricing mistake. Then people called and checked.

When I read word of RTV CSR's confirming the deal, that removed all reasonable doubt in my mind, and I bought a unit.

I say 'reasonable' because I did worry that RTV would try to do something silmy and ask for a do-over after all was said and done.

I was highly disappointed, but not shocked, when, 7 days later, they did just that.


This happens sometimes - the best example is Circuit City. They sometimes offer their own rebates on a product, and then, when the product sells much more briskly than they anticipated, they'll take the rebate down midway through the day.

That leaves anyone who ordered, but didn't print the rebate immediately, in a tough spot.

Fortunately for us all, our fellow FW'ers are smarter than that and there are always guys who capture the rebate and host it so the rest of us can download it 

The last time this happened that I know if is when Circuit City dropped the price of a DirecTiVo to $99 and offered a $50 rebate on top of that. Orders flew in fast and furious, and the rebate was taken down quickly.


So, these days, I print the rebate before I add the item to my cart.


----------



## ColdOne

*I've never proposed anything other than the people at DNNA responsible for this are complete and utter morons.

I haven't proposed any conspiracy theories at all, and I don't believe this fiasco was created on purpose.*


Then this statement of yours confuses me:

*I can't recall anything similar happening with either Denon or Marantz, so I don't know why it happened with DNNA, but in any case, dealing with retailers shouldn't have presented a problem to this team. There's no way I'm buying the naive argument.


This ain't rocket science.*


I guess this can be taken two ways. You don't think they are idiots. You think they are f'ing idiots.

*Why would you want the morons responsible for this fiasco to retain their jobs? They've proved enough incompetence that even a public school would be able to fire them.....I think......*


I don't know the details. It's quite possible that the guy is quite competent and made a mistake that you or I could also have easily made. In high profile cases sometimes people have to get fired, even if that person is just about as good as (or even a bit better than) everyone else doing the exact same job.

*In my mind there is a difference between a simple and honest mistake - "Oh no, I put the decimal place in the wrong spot! Call the retailers!!" and one made out of gross negligence.*


You are mixing up "simple" and "honest." This may have been a simple mistake, it may have been a complex mistake. It may even be a systematic problem with the entire division of the company. But it WAS an honest mistake.

*Allowing either mistake to trickle that far down the retail chain means that you take your lumps and make the best of it.

DNNA tried to not do this in the beginning, they seem to indicate they're going to do this now.

Better late than never.*


Again, you appear to be justifying your actions by what you assume is their bad behavior. I agree they should indeed "take their lumps." That is, those who were honestly confused and inconvienced should get compensated. Those are the fair and just costs they owe (not to mention the damage to their reputation in the eyes of retailers and consumers).


This totally does not justify you or anyone else jumping into the deal as a form of vigilante justice to give the evil corporation what they deserve. Doing so is totally self-servingand therefore, totally, unequivocally unethical. It is like deciding not to pay your taxes because you oppose the war in Iraq.


People who honestly believe that they have done the right thing by "punishing" the evil or moronic people at RTV should give up the $300 to the charity of their choice. Only then would their conscience be clear.


As a stockbroker, when you misquote a price to one of your clients (as you or others in your firm have), you pay up. (Although not until asking if they wouldn't mind giving the money back.) That is what you should fairly be expected to pay. Now this client calls up all his friends and says "Hey, there's some moron stockbroker who thinks Cyrix Corp. is Zyris Corp. and you then have 1000 trades worth millions of dollars. Are you still so magnanimous and willing to shake the guys hand, pat him on the back and say "Good one. You got me. I totally respect how you outplayed me and I'll be wishing I could be more like you when I'm in line down at the unemployment office."


----------



## jlv

Quote:

_Originally posted by Crrink_
*This happens sometimes - the best example is Circuit City. They sometimes offer their own rebates on a product, and then, when the product sells much more briskly than they anticipated, they'll take the rebate down midway through the day.*
Interestingly enough, Circuit City did this *again* just yesterday on a Samsung ML-1710 Laser Printer, where they had their own rebate and a mfg rebate. Halfway through the day, they removed their own rebate.


----------



## ColdOne

*We all thought it was a pricing mistake. Then people called and checked.

When I read word of RTV CSR's confirming the deal, that removed all reasonable doubt in my mind, and I bought a unit. I say 'reasonable' because I did worry that RTV would try to do something silmy and ask for a do-over after all was said and done.*


So you still had reasonable doubts that they did not intend this was a pricing error, yet you bought one and demanded they honor the deal anyway.

*This happens sometimes - the best example is Circuit City. They sometimes offer their own rebates on a product, and then, when the product sells much more briskly than they anticipated, they'll take the rebate down midway through the day.*


This is not the same situation. Circuit City knew what they wanted to price the product at, but later decided that they actually lowered it too low and they could make more money by raising the prices back up. Those who bought at the low price deserve to get what they paid for, it was an honest and intentional price. It wasn't as if they keyed in the wrong value or shipped the wrong boxes.

*That leaves anyone who ordered, but didn't print the rebate immediately, in a tough spot.*


I think they have the right to raise their prices at any time up until you hit the final approval button. If that last web page says "plus $50 rebate" then you should get it. But that is totally not what happened in the RTV situation.


Just because one company chooses to treat you dishonestly (if that is indeed the case) that doesn't justify you taking advantage of a different company (and most ethicists would say you can't even lie, cheat or steal from the original bad company).

*The last time this happened that I know if is when Circuit City dropped the price of a DirecTiVo to $99 and offered a $50 rebate on top of that. Orders flew in fast and furious, and the rebate was taken down quickly.*


This sounds more like the RTV situation. Perhaps they had the rebate at a higher price and intended to remove the rebate when lowering the price. But something happened. Again, if they honestly made this mistake it is wrong for you to intentionally capitalize on it. Period. It wasn't wrong for you to buy the unit and hope they really meant it, and it wouldn't have been wrong for you to expect some consideration for the time and effort you put in.


It is ethically wrong to profit from the honest mistakes of a retailer or manufacturer. You may treat this as a game, but it really is not (or shouldn't be) a battle of us vs. them. If you buy something at a fair price everyone wins. If we don't try to cheat them, then they don't have to try to cheat us.


----------



## Beaner

Give it a rest already...


This "Hollier-than-thou" and "unequivocally unethical" BS needs to be taken to PM.

Can we please get this thread back on topic?


----------



## jones07

And what topic was that ?


This "The ONE SINGLE ReplayTV / $149 Activation Thread" Thread Has no one topic


----------



## alreadyposted

Quote:

_Originally posted by jones07_
*And what topic was that ?*
149 with activation, brought to you by DNNA all thanks to their marketing team 


opps, i got mine for 134.99 each


----------



## antnjen

Quote:

_Originally posted by ophus_
*Yea your right I may be reaching, but it's no smoking gun like some are trying to make it out to be.


By the way Antnjen hows the double identity crisis going, are you making any headway with that or are you still talking to yourself?*
Way to go genius. This comment is as off-base as all of your others. While I agree wholeheartedly with Crrink, Winter, et al, I find it amusing that you think Crrink and I are one and the same since I haven't even posted to this topic in several days.


I guess if more than one person disagrees with you, they must all be the same person. You are so right all of the time that no more than one person could disagree with you on any one topic. Disagreeing with you - how insane!


Hey, here's an idea, collect at least one fact before you cast accusations.


----------



## ColdOne

Quote:

_Originally posted by millwood_
*well, i am too busy enjoying my $149 replaytv than lecturing you.


yeah, I like my replaytv and especially that low, low price of $149.


and the fact that there is nothing you can do to change it.


*
Good for you, I hope you're happy (so that you might take a break in trying to find someone else to take advantage of). And now that I know you have no regard for anyone other than yourself I can choose not to do business with you and I'll be happy too. Some people just cannot be trusted to do business reasonably or ethically, and I see it is pointless to try to reason with them.


----------



## toots

Shoot.


I walk away from this forum for a while, and all of a sudden, there are no end of people trying to take over as the most obnoxious poster.


I think some of my posts are starting to look mild by comparison.


----------



## icecow

I knew the week before the fiasco that they were changing their price scheme to $150 + 12.95 or 300 lifetime. To be dramatic(everyone else is), what percentage of people across the entire earth knew about the price change *including* the CSR in India, management of Circuit City, RadioShack, OfficeDepot, Amazon? Maybe 0.000000001%?

I also knew that all the RadioShacks in two of the three counties around me had either 1 or 0 ReplayTVs left per store.


Knowing all of that what did I believe on the morning of December 17th?

I believed the $150 price was a half-day fire sale(a rush job) to rid the stores of old serial numbers so new shipments could come in time for the christmas rush.



I had about a thousand suspictions. My biggest fear is it was a price mistake, but didn't find that plausable. A price mistake would require an unlikely and unpresidented level of stupidity that I don't associate with Denon. Not to mention the fact that at least 4 Major retailers would have to independently screw up as well to make the price mistake work. What are the odds of all of this lining up? Another suspicion I had was that they were just moving out the units at full price and upruptly discontinuing ReplayTVs with a firesale(continuing service for 3 years of course) before they released their Spring line of new fancy stuff.


I didn't have enough reasonable suspicion to conclude anything----that's an understatement.


Here are the two things I suspected most:

>the $150 w/activation stock was minimal

>In any case scenerio, the stock would be gone and there would be no recourse for DNNA if it was an error.


I mostly just believed it was a mini fire-sale to make the price change.



Of course I sound full of it to you. The whole guise of a fatwallet extremist (who I find hard to blame for buying one) is that they had innocent intentions. Therefore, everyone with an innocent claim should be guilty of intent until proven innocent. In court you could get any criminal off the hook because the judge would be forced to dismiss your prosecution.


But I just realized that I made a post speculating DNNA were making a quick changes to get in on the christmas rush. I just looked it up and to my surprise it was dated 12/16, the day before. It says alot about my state of mind.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...15#post3065615 


So will you Please, Please Pleese let me off the hook? prrty plEASE.


And to think that other people didn't come to the same conclusion you did... how incriminating for them.


Note: I'm not insinuating that you have any mental problems.

A catagory of people with Aspergers(kin of Autism) have problems understanding that other people have a different set of knowledge then themselves. If someone leaves the room, and a trashcan is moved over a foot, then the person returns to the room the Aspergers guy will assume the person returning knows the trashcan was moved. He doesn't distinguish that nuances give people different sets of knowledge.


We all do this some, and some do this more, But come on! You are way over the top.


For someone to come up with a different conclusion then you.... how incriminating for them. All of your arguments stem from a postulate that is not widely accepted. How do you think you can convince anyone or condemn them in a way they will understand?


I think we have proved that I can't be you(as Jeff conjectured) because it's clear to everyone that you are incapible from seeing things from someone elses perspective.


Would it be too arogant to say I was convinced from the start that if this wasn't a fire sale and was _something!_ else--including a price glitch--that DNNA had no recourse.


I was pretty sure I was buying from a fire-sale and dam sure that if I wasn't the shelves would still be bare.


I gave a guy $1.70 yesterday so he could get a $6 fan belt(he showed me a $5 bill). I KNEW he might have been a lieing homeless guy who was going to spend the money on liquor or food, and not a fanbelt but he didn't seem to be. There was no TIME to think or he would have left and asked someone else who might have said no. I had to make a decision.

Someone please validate or condemn me on my decision, because I can't think for myself, or take responsibility for my own actions unless there is an arbitrator involved.


Why are you attacking people?


cow


----------



## GooberedUp

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*Good for you, I hope you're happy (so that you might take a break in trying to find someone else to take advantage of). And now that I know you have no regard for anyone other than yourself I can choose not to do business with you and I'll be happy too. Some people just cannot be trusted to do business reasonably or ethically, and I see it is pointless to try to reason with them.*
Wow, what planet do you live on?


I do like reading your posts though, so please don't go away.


----------



## icecow

Quote:

_Originally posted by GooberedUp_
*Wow, what planet do you live on?


I do like reading your posts though, so please don't go away.*
heh, I like reading his posts too. He mixes reason with absurdity. I don't like horror movies but I like reading his posts.


cow


----------



## icecow

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*


I don't know the details. It's quite possible that the guy is quite competent and made a mistake that you or I could also have easily made. In high profile cases sometimes people have to get fired, even if that person is just about as good as (or even a bit better than) everyone else doing the exact same job.

*


I find it very hard to believe it was the error of one person in control. The only thing I can phantom is that at least two equaly 'top' people were coordinating this thing together and the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.


If this was the vision of a single person their thought process is totally estranged from anything I can imagine. He had the flu?!


cow


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by antnjen_
*Way to go genius. This comment is as off-base as all of your others. While I agree wholeheartedly with Crrink, Winter, et al, I find it amusing that you think Crrink and I are one and the same since I haven't even posted to this topic in several days.


I guess if more than one person disagrees with you, they must all be the same person. You are so right all of the time that no more than one person could disagree with you on any one topic. Disagreeing with you - how insane!


Hey, here's an idea, collect at least one fact before you cast accusations.*
Hey, come on now, we did both use the word 'dude.' I think that'e enough to establish reasonable doubt in anybody's mind - I mean, what are the odds of that?




BTW, after reviewing a few of your posts, especially the ones in which you agree with me, I've concluded that you are most definitely an intelligent and witty guy. 


Sorry Ophus, even a cursory look at my posting history in the aforementioned forums will establish my legitimate identity as the one, the only, Crrink!

...you know, except on the deal forums, where I'm 'Crank'


----------



## ColdOne

*I knew the week before the fiasco that they were changing their price scheme to $150 + 12.95 or 300 lifetime.... I also knew that all the RadioShacks in two of the three counties around me had either 1 or 0 ReplayTVs left.


Knowing all of that what did I believe on the morning of December 17th?

I believed the $150 price was a half-day fire sale(a rush job) to rid the stores of old serial numbers so new shipments could come in time for the christmas rush.*


This is plausible and I have no reason to doubt you. It wouldn't have been my assumption, but a lot of stuff happens in retail that don't make sense to me.

*I had about a thousand suspictions. My biggest fear is it was a price mistake, but didn't find that plausable...

I mostly just believed it was a mini fire-sale to make the price change.


Of course I sound full of it to you.*


I said I would believe you and I do. I'm not going to go point-by-point about whether it was reasonable to assume that Denon was pulling the strings or whether it was cost effective for them to dump 1000 boxes rather than put new stickers on them or whatever.


The bottom line is that you believed that you were acting in good faith on an honest offer. But you still weren't 100% sure that this was a done deal and everyone was completely happy with it.


The question is what do you do when you find out it was just a stupid mistake? Do you say:


a) "damn, I thought it was too good to be true, here is my unit Mr. circuit city drone"


b) "well, it's not worth $400 to me, but I've already invested some time and effort into this, so I'll be really pissed if DNNA doesn't make it up to me"


or


c) "screw you, I got mine, pay up suckers"


*The whole guise of a fatwallet extremist (who I find hard to blame for buying one) is that they had innocent intentions. Therefore, everyone with an innocent claim should be guilty of intent until proven innocent. In court you could get any criminal off the hook because the judge would be forced to dismiss your prosecution.*


I couldn't follow this. You can't be blamed for innocent intentions, but you can be held responsible for bad intentions or for innocent intentions and taking advantage of an undeserved windfall.


Anyway, this is not a court of law. There is no punishment to be handed down. People are free to claim that they never even bought one of the units or that they even know what ReplayTV is. However, if they say "I bought one knowing it was a price error and I demand that replay give me the full service" then I can certainly conclude they are ethically challenged and indirectly making my life more difficult and expensive.

*But I just realized that I made a post speculating DNNA were making a quick changes to get in on the christmas rush. I just looked it up and to my surprise it was dated 12/16, the day before. It says alot about my state of mind.*


I checked out the post and I couldn't find anything to support your claim to your state of mind. It shows that you knew they changed the price model and that you suspected it was because they wanted to sell a lot for the christmas rush, undercutting Tivo. I didn't see anything about purging inventory or why it makes sense sell the units at a $300 loss rather than just repackage them.


BUT, again, I believe you when you say what you thought the next morning. All I'm saying is that doesn't justify a $300 windfall or a tirade against DNNA.

*So will you Please, Please Pleese let me off the hook? prrty plEASE.*


So granted. You had honest intentions. Now donate all the profits you made from this (keep a little something for your time and effort) and we'll call it even. You don't gain anything from their mistake and neither do I. (That doesn't save the jobs of those involved, but hey the economy's picking up and they can eat ramen for a few months )

*And to think that other people didn't come to the same conclusion you did... how incriminating for them.


We all do this some, and some do this more, But come on! You are way over the top.


For someone to come up with a different conclusion then you.... how incriminating for them. All of your arguments stem from a postulate that is not widely accepted. How do you think you can convince anyone or condemn them in a way they will understand?*


That's not the point. I can only speculate on what other people were thinking. I have no problem speculating that MOST people on this forum knew this was a pricing mistake. I have no problem speculating that most octagenarians from Uzbekistan would probably not have noticed.


Most people haven't even denied what I've said. They point out that SOMEONE might not have suspected it was a pricing error, therefore they themselves (who knew full well) should get the service.


If you want to go into a very specific case about whether a particular individual (whether it's an AVS special member or the homeless guy you mentioned) we can do so, although for what purpose I don't know. Maybe we'll find out that given the information they had and their general intelligence level that only 16% of the people should have known this was a mistake as opposed to the 70% I might think it is. That still does not excuse those 16%.


*Would it be too arogant to say I was convinced from the start that if this wasn't a fire sale and was something! else--including a price glitch--that DNNA had no recourse.*


I don't see that as arrogant. If you tried to take advantage of a price glitch then that is a violation of accepted ethics.

*I gave a guy $1.70 yesterday so he could get a $6 fan belt(he showed me a $5 bill). I KNEW he might have been a lieing homeless guy who was going to spend the money on liquor or food, and not a fanbelt but he didn't seem to be. There was no TIME to think or he would have left and asked someone else who might have said no. I had to make a decision.

Someone please validate or condemn me on my decision, because I can't think for myself, or take responsibility for my own actions unless there is an arbitrator involved.*


I am far more inclined to "attack" people for taking money from others than giving their own money away (even if it is foolishly).

*Why are you attacking people?*


Because it's more fun than beating animals? I'm just exploring this topic from a logical, rational and ethical perspective. If people want to incriminate themselves, that's fine. You don't see me harrassing the guy whose only posts have been "Ha Ha, I got mine." do you?


Many people find this kind of thing acceptable because it is an impersonal corporation, they don't see any direct harm and don't have to face the person they are taking advantage of. When you put people in the exact same situation except with a small mom-and-pop store or with an individual they have to look in the eye as they are saying "I'm keeping my box" they usually come to a different ethical conclusion.


Gratuitous analogy:


You walk into a drugstore and buy ten bottles of anal itch cream that are priced at $1.99. As you're waiting for your bus the clerk rushes out and tells you that he accidentally put the wrong stickers on the boxes and that the $100 difference would come out of his pocket.


Hopefully I don't have to tell you the right thing to do. How is this different when it comes from a large company? And people wonder why the big companies are starting to treat us like we're all criminals?


----------



## Crrink

*ColdOne*,

Okay, here's the problem with having a long discussion with anybody - we've got so many topics that our posts are super long, and I'm getting tired of typing 


I hope it's not too confusing, I'm going to respond to your points in the order they were posted:


naive implies innocence, being an utter moron implies negligence. Whoever made the decision that led to this should've been prevented from attaining any decisionmaking power long ago. It's reasonable to assume we're dealing with people familiar with running a business - that makes the naive argument a really tough sell in my mind.


Again, I don't think you have any evidence to prove that this was an honest mistake. By honest mistake I mean a reasonable mistake that a reasonable person could've made. I truly think that anyone worth their salt should've realized this was a disaster in the making almost immediately.

Granted, I am not privy to the details of how this all went down, so my opinion is not fact (what a surprise )


I justify my actions by citing the fact that all concerned parties told me it was o.k. to do what I was doing when I did it. I did not buy a RTV to punish the company - that would be both petty and expensive. I am not keeping my RTV to punish the company, I'm keeping it because I believe I have a legal, reasonable and ethical right to it.


Re: the stockbroker example - here's how it breaks down: If a customer tells me to buy XYZ, and he really meant ABC, then at the end of the day, if he asks, he gets a report in ABC. I smile and thank him for the order, then I scramble to sell the XYZ I bought and buy the ABC I gave the customer and lose as little money as possible. That's what you do for customers, even when it's their fault. If you don't, if you stand up on your high horse, then they probably won't call you, and you'll earn less money. It's a hell of a lot cheaper to eat an occasional error and keep the business going than it is to be 'right.' (BTW, most customers will own up to their own errors and take the hit, but some won't.)

If it happens between a fellow broker and myself, then I shout and scream at the guy, call him an idiot, and depending on his level of incompetence, I either leave him with the error, or I help him cover it to lose as little money for both of us as possible.

If I made the mistake with a broker in my own firm, then I apologize and let him know that I intend to take full financial responsibility for the error. And yes, if it's all my fault, I'm as magnanimous as can be. Honestly.

**this has become a big, tangential argument, but that's how my business works, in case anyone was curious.


************on to your next post***************


I didn't have reasonable doubts about the legitimacy of the deal, I had unreasonable doubts. After a CSR tells you it's legit, you have to be a little paranoid to not believe him.


I agree that Circuit City can change prices at any time, but the problem is that you have people who buy when a rebate is listed and valid, but forget to print it out. They remember later, or wait until the receive the product, and guess what? The rebate is nowhere to be found. That stinks!

It's not a good example for this argument, though, so I shouldn't have brought it up.


You say that *IF* they honestly made a mistake, I shouldn't benefit from it. You may be right, but we have no way to prove the 'honesty' of the mistake.

I look at the circumstantial evidence and I see we-cut-off-the-wrong-leg gross negligence,

you look at it and see how-could-this-happen naivete.

Without more facts, it's going to be hard for either of us to convince the other.


Expecting someone to honor a contract does not meet my definition of 'cheating' them.


----------



## tluxon

Quote:

_Originally posted by ColdOne_
*...You walk into a drugstore and buy ten bottles of anal itch cream...*
I couldn't resist checking on the progress of this thread - turns out it was worth it. Thanks for the laugh! 


You guys should take a break and get yourselves a cold one.


Mr. Personal Attack


----------



## icecow

I assure you I'm 70% guilty by your standards and about 10% guilty by my own. The problem is people don't have the perfect tool for every situation. Sometimes I feel ripped off. Like when I buy a $8 beer at a concert(as frugal as I am, I'm wise enough to buy a $8 beer midway though a concert, and shifty enough to bring 3 beers and drink them in the parking lot). Sometimes I feel like I'm ripping people off. Like when I got a 6' Belkin paralell printer cable for $0.50 Clearance isle at Staples when I know they go for $25 or so new(How much does it cost to make those things?! That's another discussion). Such a cable is usually found beside something like a opened spindle of cdrs missing cdrs marked at $22.

Other times it has crossed my mind to send $5 to a software company asking $20 for their product with a note that says "That's All you get".


In my mind a guy who chirps "I got mine" is within the realm of normal responses as they sort through the Replay Issue.


If people don't have the tools to deal with a situation they will either use a tool they already have or go out on an unpromising journey to find a tool or make one. I think you are doing the latter at the expense of the people who are doing the first.


I can't say your arguements are something I couldn't have said myself, but I can't say I haven't learned by reading them either. Language and behavor usually develop together. The more you bring up fairness issues, the more it becomes part of peoples lives (I could go without the conclusive condemnation parts though).


Assuming a person factually knows there was a price glitch that morning, I see them as having 3 choices:

>Call RadioShack after RadioShack looking for one(or more) to snag

>Do nothing (awhile someone else snags them)

>Call RadioShack after RadioShack warning them of the price glitch


As far as I'm concerned 'Do nothing' doesn't exist because if you do nothing then someone else is just going to snag it.


That leaves us with:

>Call RadioShack after RadioShack looking for one(or more) to snag

>Call RadioShack after RadioShack warning them of the price glitch


Option Two seems a little odd. I mean noone is going to pay you for your time, it's not your responsibility.


Most people Did Nothing or Option One. But someone who Snaged 3 and then went home and spends 2 hours calling radioshacks warning them of the price glitch would be considered both weirder and unethical any of the other options.


Maybe the guy only has a $5 bill left after buying all of those replays and is set on getting a $5 value meal at mcDonalds even though he KNOWs he shouldn't and stick to his diet. Would it be unreasonable to pull out a lighter and burn the $5 bill? It would surely remove the guy from a perpetual vision of eating the $5 value meal.


I do not recomend recommend raising a $5 bill over your head and try to light it with a lighter at a lower socio-economic class party. I tried it. If you do make sure you have someone there to snap a picture so you can put it beside a picture of the flag raaising in Iwojima. They will look pretty close.
http://www.kendavies.net/flag/images/iwojima1.gif 

Picture gotton from here:
http://www.kendavies.net/flag/school.html (trippy kids singing when you load up)



Anyway, my point is alot of this stuff has alot less to do with the charactor of a person and more to do with how choices are poised.


cow


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## ColdOne

Quote:

_Originally posted by tluxon_
*I couldn't resist checking on the progress of this thread - turns out it was worth it. 
*
Now that is the most ridiculous thing I've read in this entire thread. I can't take anything you say seriously from now on


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## sixt7gt350

Quote:

_Originally posted by toots_
*Are you guys still at it?


Why hasn't one of you won the argument yet?*
Which reminds me of one of the funniest things I've ever seen on the internet.

(barring the logic trail of the typical icecow post)


Removed link to mean picture after being whacked on the head by wife.


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## Crrink

AAAAAWWWW, come on, I didn't get to see it


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## alreadyposted

Quote:

_Originally posted by Crrink_
*AAAAAWWWW, come on, I didn't get to see it *
just some retarded kid winning a race with macro on the picture saying arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympic, even if you win you are still retarded


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## Protoguy

Cant believe people are still talking about this. Enjoy the thing already.

Also just in case anyone has not noticed they changed their webpage.
http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/replaytv/default.asp


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## ashVID

Glad to see it has been resolved. Pretty fair dont you think? Those who were legitmately confused and called to confirm get free service. Not sure they are going to blanketly give EVERYONE free service but those with a legit gripe will get it. I am sure it will be exploited by some of the bargain hunters by lying, creating fake phone records, lol, who knows.


If what I had to say bothered you, then maybe you are a good person, it is called conviction. And for those who spout about the moral high-ground, let me retort that, unfortunately, the moral high ground is about an inch above sea level anymore...


Lesson here, be patient, karma will come around, the world is just...


Peace and love and enjoy your replays!



ash =o)


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## allaboutmojo

REPLAYTV website not working.....maybe they shut down.


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## iommi

Its back.


I cant believe they changed it again they they just changed it! Must mean mp3 streaming is around the corner


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## icecow

Quote:

_Originally posted by iommi_
*Its back.


I cant believe they changed it again they they just changed it! Must mean mp3 streaming is around the corner *
Is your nickname a homage to the Black Sabbath guitarist?


"Heaven & Hell" was their best album. 12 year old males were the biggest demographic that bought this album, but I was a 12 year old male the year the album was released, and still love the album today.


cow


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## ophus

It kills me to bump this stupid thread back up to the top. But since you wouldn't let it go Crrink/Antnjen heres your proof.


In this post which I have copied below, you forgot which identity you were using and anwsered a comment I had posted to Antnjen as Crrink. You also very frequently post as one or the other and then come along shortly and backup what you just said with the other. You should have just let it died but you couldn't. I wasn't going to make a big deal about it just thought maybe you would see the light and stop.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...59#post3129059 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by ophus

Antnjen,


If you remember on the 17th before you bought any replays I told you this deal wasn't so, and that the service didn't come with it per my phone call to Circuit City. You chose to ignore me and tell me I was wrong, well guess what?


Thank goodness that the AG's and judges have common sense and will look at this and say it was a mistake. We will not hurt this company and risk jobs when you have an easy solution to the problem. Take it back!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




***Edited per Diodo1's request in the following post.***



I don't know who you are, but I took the word of the Replay TV CSR's over any I might have read here, from a user who doesn't work for RTV.

I know that it turns out that you were right, but you really can't blame people for listening to RTV's CSR's, can you?



Last edited by Crrink on 12-31-03 at 12:58 PM




Quote:

_Originally posted by antnjen_
*Way to go genius. This comment is as off-base as all of your others. While I agree wholeheartedly with Crrink, Winter, et al, I find it amusing that you think Crrink and I are one and the same since I haven't even posted to this topic in several days.


I guess if more than one person disagrees with you, they must all be the same person. You are so right all of the time that no more than one person could disagree with you on any one topic. Disagreeing with you - how insane!


Hey, here's an idea, collect at least one fact before you cast accusations.*


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## jones07

Is this true are you the........."Double ID'er" ? 


Oh the Shame of it all


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## alreadyposted

Quote:

_Originally posted by jones07_
*Is this true are you the........."Double ID'er" ? 


Oh the Shame of it all *
he is a sad little man


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## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by ophus_
*It kills me to bump this stupid thread back up to the top. But since you wouldn't let it go Crrink/Antnjen heres your proof.


In this post which I have copied below, you forgot which identity you were using and anwsered a comment I had posted to Antnjen as Crrink. You also very frequently post as one or the other and then come along shortly and backup what you just said with the other. You should have just let it died but you couldn't. I wasn't going to make a big deal about it just thought maybe you would see the light and stop.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...59#post3129059 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by ophus

Antnjen,


If you remember on the 17th before you bought any replays I told you this deal wasn't so, and that the service didn't come with it per my phone call to Circuit City. You chose to ignore me and tell me I was wrong, well guess what?


Thank goodness that the AG's and judges have common sense and will look at this and say it was a mistake. We will not hurt this company and risk jobs when you have an easy solution to the problem. Take it back!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




***Edited per Diodo1's request in the following post.***



I don't know who you are, but I took the word of the Replay TV CSR's over any I might have read here, from a user who doesn't work for RTV.

I know that it turns out that you were right, but you really can't blame people for listening to RTV's CSR's, can you?



Last edited by Crrink on 12-31-03 at 12:58 PM*


HAHAHAHAHA, OK, I guess I see where your confusion lies.

For some reason I thought that post was directed at me, so I assumed you had meant that you posted in the original price drop thread telling everyone that the drop was premature/didn't include service/whatever.


In hindsight it's quite clear that you were speaking to Antnjen, and I don't know why I didn't notice that the first time around.


I thought it was odd that you worded it as if you were telling me specifically, but guessed that you meant that, since it was in the thread, I must've seen it.


As I said before, I would be happy to have jleavans/David Bott confirm that I am only who I say I am - They may do so publicly as long as they don't reveal any personal info.

Obviously I'm not posting under two ID's since one or both would be banned by now.


Also, as I said before, just go back and look at my posting history - I think you'll find that Antnjen was here a long time before me. I have never owned a RTV before 12/17, and had no reason to post here. I have had TiVo for about a year and a half - plenty of posts on the TiVo forum to back that up.



So anyway, I understand why you're confused, but you're still wrong. I've only posted under crrink here, period. Never, ever under another user name.


Oh, and, for the record, the whole idea of needing to back up your own ideas as a different person is beyond lame. Only the weakest of arguers would even consider such a silly ploy. My arguments are logical, and I hope clearly stated. They stand on their own, and they don't need support from others - though it is always nice to hear it.


Have a nice day


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## toots

Just for the record, I am not Crrink.


Nor am I lizard_boy, the KenL, Randy712, or any of the others outside of Zimbabwe.


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## madSkeelz

Quote:

_Originally posted by toots_
*Just for the record, I am not Crrink.


Nor am I lizard_boy, the KenL, Randy712, or any of the others outside of Zimbabwe.*
Not to throw fuel on the fire, but I've noticed that Justin and toots *never* post at the same time.


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## antnjen

Quote:

_Originally posted by ophus_
*It kills me to bump this stupid thread back up to the top. But since you wouldn't let it go Crrink/Antnjen heres your proof.


In this post which I have copied below, you forgot which identity you were using and anwsered a comment I had posted to Antnjen as Crrink. You also very frequently post as one or the other and then come along shortly and backup what you just said with the other. You should have just let it died but you couldn't. I wasn't going to make a big deal about it just thought maybe you would see the light and stop.


...(rest of quote deleted)*
Is it Ophus, or Doofus? My apologies to the rest of the community for the personal attack on O, but this isn't rocket science.


Ok, ok, you've got me/us. Back in the Fall of 2002 (Crrink registered in Sep 2002), my superhuman ability to see into the future allowed me to see that there would be a huge RTV-related controversy in Dec 2003. Furthermore, I knew my case would be weak, so 2 months later (Antnjen (me) registered in Nov 2002), I secretly created a new identity that I could use to spread propaganda about how right I really am. I didn't stop there, I knew there would be people like Ophus who would see right through my smokescreen, so I posted some 70 posts to this forum since Nov 2002 just to build credibility for the Antnjen ID. Then, in Dec 2003, my prediction came to light (as if I was surprised). This was my golden opportunity to use both IDs for evil instead of for the good of mankind. (Insert long drawn-out Dr. Evil laugh here)


As far as posting to back up what Crrink said, umm, duhhhh! We happen to share the same view on this topic and have had an almost identical experience in this ordeal.


Yet, it's still laughable that you think I was in there patting myself (again, according to you, Crrink) on the back when, prior to your ridiculous accusation, I had only posted 3 posts to this thread, and one of them was to tell someone I thought their post was hillarious!!! Believe me, I would have posted more often, but by the time I would get to read through all of the posts, Crrink, Winter, et al had already posted my thoughts.


Now, hurry back to your TV. Your RTV is filling up with episodes of Murder She Wrote.


----------



## Roto

Whew, I was worried that this thread was still active, but it's just off-topic. Hope it stays that way


----------



## GooberedUp

Maybe it's just a Sybil multiple personality thing going on here. I think the evil twin thing sounds pretty dead on . . .


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## Crrink

Uh oh.....then which one of us is the good one?


----------



## ophus

I don't think anyone is going to buy your lame excuse.


By the way I can sit in this same seat and use the same computer to post to this forum from 5 different IP address (five is all that comes to mind there is probably more) so having a different IP address doesn't help any arguements either( I don't do this by the way I just know enough about computer networks to know it isn't hard). This is probably why you haven't been banned.


As to when you registered I suspect you have been doing this all along and it's probably a tactic you use wherever you post.


I just presented the evidence, everyone else can make up thier own mind.



Antnjen never did anwser my comment from the other thread, does he sound like someone who would let me get away without commenting.


----------



## toots

If I was going to be buying a lame excuse here...


Would that include the service, or is that an extra subscription fee?


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## Crrink

Dude, are you serious?

If so, you need to seek psychological help.


As we've both said, even a cursory look at our posting history will provide AMPLE evidence that we're not the same person.


In fact, since I've posted in about two threads here before 12/17, your big idea that we've (I've?) been doing this all along is clearly wrong.


You know, I thought Antnjen was being a little rude (funny, but rude) in his characterization of you, but if you're too lazy/dumb to look at our posting histories and figure out that you're wrong, then he was being kind.


edit: yeah, my excuse is lame.

It's also true.


----------



## ophus

Quote:

_Originally posted by toots_
*If I was going to be buying a lame excuse here...


Would that include the service, or is that an extra subscription fee?*
Of course everyone knows service is extra, but maybe some live in a cave.


----------



## GooberedUp

Quote:

_Originally posted by Crrink_
*Uh oh.....then which one of us is the good one?*
Not sure, since I'd have to go through and read what each of your personalities has written over time.


But, me and my laziness is overwhelmed by your double-posting evilness.


----------



## ophus

I wonder how long we'll have to wait for Jeckyl or is it Hyde?


----------



## antnjen

Quote:

_Originally posted by ophus_
*I don't think anyone is going to buy your lame excuse.


By the way I can sit in this same seat and use the same computer to post to this forum from 5 different IP address (five is all that comes to mind there is probably more) so having a different IP address doesn't help any arguements either( I don't do this by the way I just know enough about computer networks to know it isn't hard). This is probably why you haven't been banned.


As to when you registered I suspect you have been doing this all along and it's probably a tactic you use wherever you post.


I just presented the evidence, everyone else can make up thier own mind.



Antnjen never did anwser my comment from the other thread, does he sound like someone who would let me get away without commenting.*
You'll have to point me to that other post, dude. I have a superhuman ability to see into the future, not read minds.


----------



## bradbomb

Man, ophus, just drop this, I've been reading this thread for awhile and posted once or twice on it. Reading Crrink's and Antnjen's postings, they are obviously two different people with different ways of expressing the same opinion. Why would someone like Crrink who in this thread and others identified himself as a stockbroker and also has always produced valid factual arguements need to have a double ID just to have people support him. He wrote so confidently about his arguement that it was perceived that he didn't care if he got support for it or not, he just wanted the information out there. Antnjen has come on this thread and originally posted about the humor in the lengthy arguement between Crrink and I dont remember the other person's ID.


Then again this is my opinion and you can choose to ignore it like you have chosen to ignore looking at past postings of both individuals.


----------



## ophus

Could we be going for three? 




Oh I have to take this one back I just couldn't help myself. Man you left yourself wide open for that.


----------



## Crrink

Just read the posts, ophus, even you will be able to figure out that you're wrong after that.


----------



## ophus

After what?


----------



## melduforx

Can this thread be closed?


----------



## GooberedUp

Quote:

_Originally posted by melduforx_
*Can this thread be closed?*
I like this thread! It's a nice humorous change of pace.


If you don't like it, ignore it. How is it hurting you?


----------



## melduforx

"The ONE SINGLE ReplayTV / $149 Activation Thread"


NOT


The ONE SINGLE weird theory/name calling/psycho Thread


Each time someone posts to this thread I get a small shock.


Oooh. There it is.


----------



## Crrink

Quote:

_Originally posted by ophus_
*After what?*
After reading through our posting histories.


Of course, now that I know Melduforx gets a shock every time someone posts, I actually am tempted to make 50 fake accounts and start spamming the heck out of this thread!


----------



## ophus

Quote:

_Originally posted by melduforx_
*"The ONE SINGLE ReplayTV / $149 Activation Thread"


NOT


The ONE SINGLE weird theory/name calling/psycho Thread


Each time someone posts to this thread I get a small shock.


Oooh. There it is.*
Hurry everyone post and see if we can turn melduforx to a pile of ashes.


----------



## icecow

Quote:

_Originally posted by melduforx_
*Can this thread be closed?*
Speaking of off topic.


Why did you take down your picture melduforx?


cow


----------



## milky way

This is not $149. Local Circuit City has one unit priced $250, with GREEN sticker; when asking about subscription, they all told me -- 3 years on the sticker, so it is 3 years. No doubt in my mind now, Circuit Ciry was the one to blame.


However, should I take it? Uphill fight to get DNNA cave in for this?


----------



## jleavens

closing thread


----------



## jleavens

Just wanted to post a last message here that there is no evidence that Crrink has used multiple accounts. The doubled-account that was previously used in this thread was closed and that person was admonished. Crrink was not a part of that mess.


----------

