# Sony's Black is Beautiful Projection Screen



## gian

Does anyone know if this is for sale anywhere Black screen


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## melechmet

If you search this forum you will find a dozen threads on the subject in the last 3 months. I've personally seen this screen and it is awesome. Still, no one knows about the market availability of this technology. The Wall Street Journal said sometime next year- although I don't know which Sony executive at Infocomm they've gotten that out of; all the engineers where rather silent on the matter at the SID show. Hopefully. we'll hear hear something at the CES show next year, if we're extremely lucky there will be a more substantial rumor at this months Cedia show.


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## gian

Help ,I have searched for sony black screen and find nothing what is the secret search phase I need ?


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## Scrimpin

I am actually pretty happy with my DIY painted white hardboard screen. However, even if the Sony black screen is only marginally better than my DIY'er, the fact that it will give me masking is too good to resist. I cannot wait to see this screen, especially if it proves to be as reasonably priced as the initial claims.


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## Jason Turk

It's really a prototype that they showed at Infocomm. There are limitations to the screen a bit (ie. sizes that can be made). It looks promising.


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## Makaveli_786

Wow the search really works and this post is only a day old.


Whens this coming out, its annoying when they announce new stuff but dont give a release date, typical of Sony.


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## pez

we'll be able to see the sun again!


pez


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## suffolk112000

CEDIA is going to be a busy place this year... wish I could go.


Craig


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## Makaveli_786

Looks impressive as well, I hope they can deliver.


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## crumpet

this black screen will destroy plasma sales and normal televisions if it prooves to be that good in ambient light ,

Im definately gonna get one providing there reasonably priced espcially considering the lack of masking required and the fact that you could buy a huge screen and zoom your Pj as you see fit


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## Makaveli_786

I saw it in action with a Qualia 004, I cant imagine an SRX-R110 on that... insane, if it delivers its going to rock projector sales, lighting is virtually the only thing holding projectors back.


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## QQQ

The screen may be great but it will have minimal effect on PJ sales and nearly 0 effect on plasma sales.


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## crumpet

please elaborate why someone would wanna buy a plasma for double the price of a Pj and only get half the screen size if both work equally well in ambient light ?


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## QQQ

Your question is a perfect example of why hobbyists often don't "get" the market as a whole. You assume that your "wants" are the publics "wants".


I love a huge screen as much as most people here do but you and I don't represent the public at large. Everyone doesn't want a huge screen and even if the problem of ambient light is eliminated it will not eliminate the extra complexity and space required for a front projection set-up. Most people just don't have an entire wall to devote to a screen. And motorized screens, which might eliminate the size issue aren't cheap. Front projection will continue to be a limited market.


But I do agree that a screen that would allow FP in a well lit room WILL increase the market, but it will barely put a dent in plasma which is an infinitely larger market.


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## CINERAMAX

i was told not to post so I wont say much but that technology is not really SONY's. They will market it but the technology was developed by the great Rear screen manufacturer....

http://www.dnp.co.jp/eng/news/2004/040525.html


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## inittab

Jason, Take note... Let me know when I can put in an order at AVS 

Start saving guys..


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## melechmet

Quote:

_Originally posted by CINERAMAX_
* http://www.dnp.co.jp/eng/news/2004/040525.html *


Didn't some one post that this is a competing technology? [Although it looks suspiciously like the SONY demo; w/ possibly the same flower pattern!]


I also heard that the SONY work is based on IBM IP.


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## CINERAMAX

I was told by one of the vendors in question not to discuss this possible assoc.


Why?


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## ianken

This technology, if real and shipping, just gives us more choices on how we install.


It won't make J6P run out and buy a FP setup but it may allow folks who dismissed FP due to lighting requirements to embrace it.


That is good. I just hope we see larger screen sizes, at leas tin the 90"-110" which seems to be the most common range for FP installs.


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## melechmet

Quote:

_Originally posted by CINERAMAX_
*I was told by one of the vendors in question not to discuss this possible assoc.


Why?*
I say if your not under NDA, then there is no reason not to discuss it- it's all conjecture anyway. The most prudent question to ask right now is: where/when/by whom was the patent registered. As I said, IBM seems to have IP on some of this technology, surprisingly 3M et al do not. The second is: who else [beyond Sony] is *licensed* to use the technology?


Generally, I think this screen will be a big selling point for Sony FP business- it will allow them to advertise 6000:1+ contrast, massive perceived lumens from rather weak [cheap] lamps [the screen I saw at SID was rated at 3.0 gain I was told], etc., on new products w/o flinching. It will allow them to sell a projection solution (possibly doubling the price of entry) rather than just a projector. If we are going to conjecture further; the price-is-right game I played with Sony engineers found a mean of about 5k for a HS-20 class "solution." I think it's safe to say it will be double that for 1080P, if Sony is willing to productize sooner, and consequently cannibalize their Qualia showpiece business. Lastly, the technology's application to BP may, in fact, dwarf FP businesses all together. Hopefully Sony is just one of many firms that will bring this to market.


ps. there is no fundamental technological limitation to scaling this technology in screen size, I don't think the rumor of 60" max should be further referenced w/o actual reasons.


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## CINERAMAX

Quote:

_Originally posted by melechmet_
*ps. there is no fundamental technological limitation to scaling this technology in screen size, I don't think the rumor of 60" max should be further referenced w/o actual reasons.*
I was told that there are limitations in the size restricted at the moment by the associated production processes.


DNP has expertise in print lamination technology, check out the japanese site.


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## trpltongue

Cineramax,


The DNP screen is not the same technology as Sony's screen. The DNP uses circular polarized filters while the Sony screen uses selectivly reflective color filters. Totally different technology. Sony has a patent filed for their screen. You can read more here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1 


Also, there is no restriction to 60" on the Sony screen. They were demoing a 160" screen.


Russell


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## lambe

I think Sony was demoing their's at CEDIA today. It was 100", and looked great with plenty of ambient light in the room. I was told they will be available next summer. The 80" model should cost about $2000.


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## CINERAMAX

Ok but at one point DNP and Sony worked together on it. No longer I take it.


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## trpltongue

Cineramax,


Sony does have a circular polarizing screen as is mentioned in the post I linked. The person that had the screen said that Sony had no intentions of releasing it and that the co-developer might. I would be willing to bet that is the screen you are thinking of. The pictures of the circula polarizing screen looked great.


If the price mentioned above is correct then my pipe dreams of owning one of these Sony screens just got shot down. I would need a 100-120" screen and that would cost me a fortune. No thanks.


Hopefully the price will come down.


Russell


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## inittab

Quote:

_Originally posted by lambe_
*I think Sony was demoing their's at CEDIA today. It was 100", and looked great with plenty of ambient light in the room. I was told they will be available next summer. The 80" model should cost about $2000.*
$2000? Might as well get a LCD or plasma


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## Fidelity

Quote:

_Originally posted by inittab_
*$2000? Might as well get a LCD or plasma*


you must know something i don't... who makes a 80" plasma or lcd that is around $5500 ($2000 for the screen, $3500 for a good pj like the HS51 they were showing it with at CEDIA)?!?!?!? let me know and i'll open up the ol' checkbook. sorry for the sarcasm, but i still think this is a pretty revolutionary product even at a slightly high price point. what does a silverstar go for now, anyway?


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## rogo

Listen, this screen is amazing. And it does some things that make front projection more accessible to more people. But like QQQ said, it has nothing at all to do with plasma sales. And it doesn't make the HS51 + the screen a plasma. It makes it very nifty. I might buy one. But even with it, I'd have a plasma or LCD for daytime use along with the projector.


Mark


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## HTCrazy

I was told 100" for $2k by a Sony rep, but he said nothing was final yet. One nitpick on the screen was that it had a fairly small viewing cone. If you don't sit in the right place, the edges can darken. But we all just saw a prototype at Cedia. Still an awesome product that no doubt will be introduced for less than they're thinking now.


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## trpltongue

I was also told that it did not work well with ambient daylight. I was told that the filters work well at differentially rejecting ambient lighting from indoor lighting such as fluorescent and incandescant bulbs, but not from sunlight. If that is the case, it's a lot less useful.


I am a bit shocked about the price tag. The press release seemed as though they were targeting the screen towards the less affluent crowd and yet at this price point it would be one of the most expensive screens available.


Russell


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## HT cOz

Correct me if I'm wrong, but additional lighting that doesn't negatively effect black levels will raise the perceived contrast? That sounds great!


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## Jordan

Interesting pricing noted. I remember when the press release came out, and I thought that $500 was the target for the smaller (80") size. $2k is getting a bit rich, but if you're the only game in town, I guess it's whatever you want.


As for taking away from plasma/lcd sales, it will be a minimal effect. As much as we (AVS posters) believe that we're mainstream, most folks haven't the faintest clue about FP. I dont' think there would be many folks willing to set up a FP system - even with a 50% cost differential. Most people just aren't into tinkering.


BTW - Sony, if you're reading this, I have the perfect beta-test application. Please send a 133" motorized screen. PM me for shipping instructions ;-)


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## trpltongue

My next hope is the DNP screen which uses polarizing filters in front of the projection lens. This technology will be able to reject both sunlight and artificial light, regardless of color. Hopefully it'll come out soon and be priced a bit more affordable.


Heck, I might even consider paying $1500-$2000 if the Sony screen were able to reject ambient sunlight as well. I hate having my room dark all the time.


Russell


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## Jordan

I don't quite get the idea that the Sony can reject incandescent but not sunlight. They're both blackbody (continuous) radiation sources, just with different peak energy wavelengths - they both contain the same visible light bands.


Now, if it's a matter of magnitude, then I don't have to worry. I wouldn't expect a screen to hold up under driect sunlight. Even in narrow bands you'll get too much ambient reflection. But for an "equivalently" lit room, sunlight should be no worse than good halogen lighting. Besides, does the screen magically go white under sunlight, or is it just "not quite as good?" The latter will still probably be better than any white/gray screen on the market.


One thing I haven't heard talked about is color shifts of the screen under various lighting. It would seem that as you change the ambient lighting (say 2500K standard incandescent to 3500 or 4000k halogen incandescent) there would be a green/blue color shift of the "blacks" on your screen due to the higher intensity of shorter wavelengths, relative to the "standard". Also, what about fluorescent lighting? Are there any phosphors in use in commercial lighting which correspond to the three selected wavelengths? If so, that's gonna be bad.


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## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jordan_
*I don't quite get the idea that the Sony can reject incandescent but not sunlight.*
I would be surprised if it couldn't deal better with sunlight than with incandescent light at the same intensities. Incandescent bulbs tend to be toward the red side and I believe the red will be the most difficult for them to create a band for (since blue and green tend to have good spikes in a narrow band from UHP bulbs where the red is more of a shorter hill across a wider wavelength area). As I have speculated before, the red may be difficult as far as differentiating projected light vs ambient light and I was told by someone in the industry at CEDIA that this screen tends to turn pinkish under ambient light. However, if it does well with the mix of wavelengths in sunlight (as I believe it will) then we should just be able to buy bulbs for our projection rooms that don't lean so hard toward red. I believe the GE Reveal bulbs have a better mix and I already use many of those.
Quote:

*

Also, what about fluorescent lighting? Are there any phosphors in use in commercial lighting which correspond to the three selected wavelengths? If so, that's gonna be bad.*
They had some trouble with the mercury bulbs at SID, but then people just shouldn't use those (they aren't very common in houses).


I don't have a big issue with using different bulbs for ambient light if they look natural and don't cost an arm and a leg (I would be surprised if specific bulbs for the room wouldn't be a lot less than the screen). Some of us will be willing to do the special bulb thing even if it just improves the performance of the screen a little bit. So, even if it works pretty well with incandescent bulbs I would expect people here to find better bulbs to match with it.


--Darin


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## CINERAMAX

Then a xenon chandelier is out of the question for Black Sceen.


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## Jordan

One of the things I was thinking was the dramatic lighting-dim many people have in their HTs. As the incandescents drop in color temp, the screen would grow redder (pinker) until the lights extinguish. It might be an interesting effect.


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## trpltongue

I wish that I was at Cedia to ask Sony some of these questions. The 2 reports that I have read about the screen, the rep said the screen was not adept at blocking sunlight. Something about it was built to reject narrow band ambient light such as compact fluorescent and incandescent. I don't know enough about lighting to tell for sure.


Anyhow, when Sony releases this thing, I'm sure we'll find out for sure if it blocks moderate ambient sunlight or not.


Russell


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## reaper

I took a screenshot I thought you guys might be interested in...

http://reaper.us/assets/images/BlackScreen2.jpg


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## trpltongue

Holy Crap!


That is so cool. Any mention of use in sunlight from the rep there by chance?


Russell


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## Kevin_Wadsworth

Perhaps more importantly, any mention of a release date? Is "next summer" the going company line?


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## speavler

That is sweet. But at $2k, I'll stick with the light switch and shades.


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## reaper

I didn't ask any question... just admired it...


reaper


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## noah katz

Has anyone seen it in room light with no image being projected? I'm curious how dark it looks compared to, say, the charcoal gray of a typical RPTV screen.


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## MTyson

Holy crap! That is incredible.


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## rogo

I think, Noah, it's pretty close to that grey. But it really looks nearly black on quick observation when there's no image. It's freaky.


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## noah katz

Very cool, sounds like a revolutionary product.


Thanks


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## mbaxter

Revolutionary and disruptive - this looks to have the potential to put Da-Lite, Stewart, Vutec, Carada, and every other screen manufacturer out of business. Unless they can adapt somehow.


But although this Sony screen would cut into the standard FP screen market, I agree with others who said that it would not threaten plasma/lcd/rptv. We overestimate the average consumer, because problem solving and DIY are second nature to us. The large majority of folks are just not like this.


Things that we consider easy, like mounting a screen, running cable through the attic and ceiling mounting a projector, to say nothing of taking the careful measurements and positioning everything just right, are very intimidating to most people.


Much easier for most people to instead run up more credit card debt they can't afford and buy that RPTV or plasma which can be delivered and setup with no effort whatsoever.


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## noah katz

I think it's getting pretty common around here to underestimate the impact a big picture has on most everyone, and what they might be willing to do to get it.


If the pj were wireless, and that's starting to happen, setup could often be easier than rearranging furniture to make room for a hulking RPTV that still has a much smaller picture. Either that or pay way more (at least now) for a super slim RPTV or pasma - and it's still a lot smaller.


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## GrayMouser

If I had to choose between FP with this screen as it appears to be shaping up, and a Plasma TV, it would be FP all the way. I've been reading these forums for a while, hoping to learn enough to make an informed decision (I don't have a projector... yet). The biggest drawback to going the projector route is the need for a light-controlled room to get the most out of it. I want to be able to watch sports in HDTV without making the room feel like a theater. If this screen offers good performance in a lit room and great performance in a dark room, then there is no doubt I'll be getting a FP setup.


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## Jordan

Hmmm...just read Tryg's thread on the screens at cedia. $2k for 80" in a fixed screen, with roll-ups not available until 2006, IF the market pans out for the fixed screen isn't very promising. It should be ilegal to show something so cool and revolutionary, and then not deliver a full product line for a year and a half ;-)


I vote they license to Stewart and DaLite, and let those guys get the production lines going.


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## Carl Brinkman

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jordan_
*It should be ilegal to show something so cool and revolutionary, and then not deliver a full product line for a year and a half ;-)*
Seems to be Sony's new SOP. Look how long it has taken them to get the Qualia SXRD launched.


Vaporware seems to be making an enthusiastic return fueled by chatrooms like AVS all over the internet.


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## catapult

Somebody dug up an IBM patent that seemed to apply to these screens. Unless Sony bought the patent, or signed an exclusive license, it's possible that other screen makers could jump aboard. Of course Sony has a big head start as they have working prototypes and they only need to ramp up production. And it's unlikely that someone like Stewart would sell it any cheaper than Sony.


Me -- sign me up for a 9' wide one at an affordable price, thankyouverymuch.


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## speavler

Well, wall mounting a 60 inch plasma isn't exactly a piece of cake.


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## rogo

"But although this Sony screen would cut into the standard FP screen market, I agree with others who said that it would not threaten plasma/lcd/rptv. "


I tend to agree with this, but also a bit with Noah.


If the front projector market was going to expand at 10% a year, Sony's screen may make that 12-15% per year. But whether those number are 10 vs. 12 or even 30 vs. 50, they are small vs. the plasma / lcd / rptv market.


The effects will be negligible on those regardless.


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## Yellowstone Tim

I believe that there will eventually be a dramatic impact by projection on RPTV first and then plasma/LCD second. It might be within the next few years. This will happen simply because large pictures are cool to almost everyone. I know non-HT people that didn't even know front projection existed two years ago that have heard of it and are midly interested.


Also, all the limitations to the average Joe are easily "fixed." The market is already beginning to go wireless and projectors are being designed and marketed that can be turned on and used. One projector comes with surround sound, subwoofer and DVD player built in!! Also some of set up that is diffucult is not necessary to the average Joe. Colors not perfect? Neither are the colors on ther RPTV or tubeTV. A little screen spill, slightly off angle. If its a nice big relatively clear picture, that's all that's necessary.


"Things that we consider easy, like mounting a screen, running cable through the attic and ceiling mounting a projector, to say nothing of taking the careful measurements and positioning everything just right, are very intimidating to most people." mbaxter


The average Joe won't have to run cables in the attic, ceiling mount the projector, or take any careful measurements. They won't care that everything is not "just right."


Marketing plays an important role here. I am sure it was thought at one time that no one would buy a 60" RPTV or 36" tube TV they couldn't move. Now you buy it at Circuit City and the deliver and set it up!


If Joe average decides he wants and can afford a 90" FPTV, it won't be difficult at all to meet his needs. Screen: Someone will market a cheap material, easy setup, but nice looking screen or Circuit city will come install one on the wall in 5 minutes with the projector. Actually, in the near future the difficulties and weaknesses of plasma, LCD and RPTV may be greater than projection!


How does this relate to this thread? The biggest thing the average Joe will want is to plop his projector on the table, open the screen and watch in ambient light. If Sony has solved that problem and when the prices drop sufficently, we will see HT Projector/screen packages at Circuit City next to the surround sound packages.


That can mean nothing but good for the more serious HT enthusiasts. Look for FP/screen packages in Circuit City (or the like) within 2-3 years. After that RPTV will shrink and plasma will remain popular, but only up to a certain size. Above a certain size, it will be almost all FP. Say 36-40"


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## asdqwe2k2

Article in WSJ !!



Sony's Black Screens

May Brighten Business


By EVAN RAMSTAD

Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

June 17, 2004; Page B10


In TV technology, everything is changing fast. Fat tubes are being replaced by flat screens, square screens by movie-style rectangles and standard pictures by high definition.


And now, white projection screens are being challenged by dark ones.


In apparent defiance of color theory -- that dark surfaces absorb light and white surfaces reflect it -- Sony Corp. has unveiled a black screen that allows a regular digital projector to vividly display TV images and business presentations in a brightly lit room. It continues a trend that began two years ago when Stewart Filmscreen Corp., a leading U.S. maker of screens, began selling a light-gray screen that enhanced the images from projectors using digital chips.


Tokyo-based Sony showed a 160-inch-diagonal version of the screen last week at the Infocomm trade show in Atlanta, after showing 80- and 100-inch versions in a living-room mockup at an industry conference in Seattle three weeks ago. At both events, it made a splash.


"No other technology attracted so many people to stand around and look at it and say 'Wow,' " Richard Doherty of Seaford, N.Y., consultants Envisioneering Group, says of the Seattle demonstration.


Sony hasn't decided when to begin selling the screen, how to price it, where to sell it first or whether to let other manufacturers use the technology. Sony has both commercial and consumer versions of the screen in the works.



"It is an elegant solution to an irritating problem, which is the need to have a dark room for projectors," says Jean-Pierre Guillou, an engineer at Sony's display-research lab in San Diego, who was involved in the screen's development.


Sony engineers worked from the basic principle that projectors, like all TVs and monitors, form colors by blending three primary hues: red, green and blue. They came up with a filter that allows the screen to reflect only red, green and blue light. The other light in a room, such as white incandescent or fluorescent bulbs, isn't reflected.


In a bright room, the image on the screen is brighter and shows greater contrast than it would on a white screen. There is no difference in a dark room.


The new screen could increase the popularity of video projectors for home use at a time when the TV market is already being shaken up by fast growth in flat-screen liquid-crystal display and plasma models. If it is priced competitively, it could change buying habits, since consumers could get a much bigger image for about the same money.


Sales of projectors for both business and home use are already growing strongly because of the change to digital technology. Microchips have replaced bulky tubes inside projectors in recent years, shrinking the size and weight of the machines. Some weigh less than two pounds and are popular with traveling executives making presentations from laptop computers.


Consumer sales escalated last year when prices for the small projectors fell below $1,000. In the fourth quarter, consumers accounted for 58% of the sales of sub-$1,000 projectors in the U.S., up from 48% in the third quarter, according to a report released this month by market researcher Pacific Media Associates. The company forecasts sales of 3.6 million video projectors world-wide this year, up from 2.5 million last year.


Since Thomas Edison introduced motion-picture projectors more than 100 years ago, movies have been shown on white screens in dark theaters. When projector TVs emerged in the 1970s, optical engineers began working on ideas to maximize the light a screen reflects from a projector and minimize what it reflects from other sources of light in a room. One of the first big-screen projection TVs, developed by U.S. audio-video entrepreneur Henry Kloss, had a parabolic screen to defray ambient light.


Two years ago, Stewart Filmscreen, Torrance, Calif., developed its light-gray screen, GrayHawk, to boost the contrast of digital projectors in home theaters. Several other screen makers followed. Last year, Stewart produced a dark-gray version, FireHawk, that sharply reduces the impact of ambient light. Customer response to the screen "has been overwhelming," says Stewart's Andrew Cox.


The key to the Sony screen's success will be pricing. While basic projector screens for schools and offices are available for as little as $80, those designed for home theaters typically start at around $500 and can rise above $2,000. The retail price of a 100-inch version of Stewart's FireHawk screen is $1,700.


But many consumers won't spend more on a screen than a projector, according to Pacific Media analyst Tom Edwards, who says Sony may try to price its new screen at around $500.


online. wsj. com/article_email/0,,SB108742977261939595-IRjg4Nllal3nZyva3qHbqyCm4,00.html


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## darinp2

That was June and didn't mention a size. At CEDIA (more current) they were talking more than the Stewart screens. I was told it might be a couple thousand for something like a 100" diagonal screen or so. I'm sure people will continue to dream about getting this for $500, but the only way I see that happening at introduction is if it is plasma sized.


--Darin


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## noah katz

This might have already been obvious to others, but now when people walk into a store and see a pj it looks terrible and washed out; on a black screen it will look great. This will make a really big difference in increasing awareness of how good FP can be.


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## Drew Eckhardt

Quote:

_Originally posted by inittab_
*$2000? Might as well get a LCD or plasma*
Samsung's 80" plasma carries a $45,000 sticker price, may not be available yet, and is unsuitable for home theater viewing distances much beyond nine feet. 70 inch units are available for $36,000 but don't work well for theatrical applications with viewing distances beyond 8'.


Larger flat-screen displays are unavailable at any price.


Getting a screen that size useable in daylight represents a 95% discount AND the technology allows for screens big enough to match modest living room dimensions or to have a big screen for more than one set of seats.


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## TrickMcKaha

It is wonderful to see technology advancements coming in screens. For too long, the screen manufacturers have excused their enormous prices by claiming that their products weren't going to get any better, anyway, so you might as well pay too much now.


Projectors have gotten cheaper and better by leaps and bounds. When a screen costs more than the projector, you have a bottleneck for public acceptance of front projection. People rightfully choke on it. A screen looks like a glorified curtain/bedsheet, and spending $2,000 for one is not something that a mass market will ever do.


However, when you have a screen that really works in ambient light, now you have something worth $2,000.


So, I say, until you have good cheap big electric drop down screens for $600, and good big electric drop down screens that work in ambient light for $2,000, this front projection stuff will remain a niche market. Once the screen prices and availability hit the zone I suggest, Katie bar the door.


I figure another three or four years, about?


Meanwhile, it will get harder, not easier, to sell the expensive screens currently offered.


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## jack007

How does this black screen do whites? And, will whites look white on this screen if you have it next to a Studiotek 1.3?


How will this screen affect contrast ratios both on/off and ansi???


Just curious...


Jack


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## Jordan

Quote:

_Originally posted by TrickMcKaha_
*So, I say, until you have good cheap big electric drop down screens for $600, and good big electric drop down screens that work in ambient light for $2,000, this front projection stuff will remain a niche market. Once the screen prices and availability hit the zone I suggest, Katie bar the door.
*
I'm sure I'll get edited by the mods, but there's a particular online vendor, "my uncle's childs video" (is that obscure enough?) who has DaLite Cosmopolitan Electrol screens in 94" for $690 and 105" for $717 in HCMW material. That's mighty close to your magic number.


I say FP won't take off because joe sixpack is to freakin' lazy to get off the sofa and set it up himself. Too much worrying about this and that. If it doesn't come with a tuner and speakers, it'll flop in the consumer mainstream. Sad but true.


One thing I realized the other night, and which I hadn't seen mentioned, is that the Sony screens will be "auto-masking". With true black borders, the image will always be framed with black material. Of course, I shouldn't have mentioned that, as now Sony will add another $1000 for the additional "feature"!


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## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jordan_
*One thing I realized the other night, and which I hadn't seen mentioned, is that the Sony screens will be "auto-masking". With true black borders, the image will always be framed with black material. Of course, I shouldn't have mentioned that, as now Sony will add another $1000 for the additional "feature"!*
How do you figure that? With ambient light there will be some of this effect, but I don't see any more here than a normal screen when there isn't ambient light around. If you show a 2.35:1 movie with a 16:9 projector you still won't have "auto-masking" (there will still be gray bars) and I don't see anything that will cut reflections off walls anymore than a regular screen with the same amount of directionality.


In the future I do see room treatments matched with screens so that reflections are reduced significantly without having walls that are black with ambient light though.


--Darin


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## Jordan

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*If you show a 2.35:1 movie with a 16:9 projector you still won't have "auto-masking" (there will still be gray bars) and I don't see anything that will cut reflections off walls anymore than a regular screen with the same amount of directionality.

--Darin*
If the post about the screen being a 3.0 gain is correct, I would expect it to reject off axis light (reflected) pretty well, even in a poorly set up room. The effectiveness of the black border will depend on the source/projector, but with good equipement will be very close to black. (no, it won't replace velvet)


----------



## Dithermaster

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jordan_
*One thing I realized the other night, and which I hadn't seen mentioned, is that the Sony screens will be "auto-masking". With true black borders, the image will always be framed with black material.*
Good point. It will be good enough for me. I run my 106" 16:9 screen unmasked for 4:3 (and "small" 4:3 for overly compressed satellite junk), and having the unused portion "darker" would be great. Yes, it's not velvet, but it's far better than what I have, and definately a feature they should promote.


///[email protected]


----------



## HTCrazy

Overall, the HS51 at CEDIA looked noticeably better with the Firehawk screen than it did with the black screen. Although I guess the real question is how good the black screen would look with the lights out. One thing is for sure though, it definitely had a fairly small viewing cone.


----------



## Ryan Wright

So, what's the answer for people like me - A willingness, budget and need to buy a 142" Firehawk fixed frame now, or continue suffering with this white wall for x months until the black screen comes out? If this is what it claims to be, I'd go as high as $3,000 for 142". Shoot, the Firehawk will be $2,500+ anyway (unless someone can tell me where to buy it cheaper - anyone?).


----------



## trpltongue

Ryan,


If you truly have to battle with ambient indoor lighting (remember the Sony screen apparently does not reject ambient sunlight), then unfortunately you have to wait. Sony will be able to produce a screen of that size, it's just a matter of when. In the meantime, if you absolutely can't stand using the wall, you could buy yourself some highpower material from AVS for around $300 and build your own temporary fixed screen.


Russell


----------



## Minke

Quote:

_Originally posted by trpltongue_
*...remember the Sony screen apparently does not reject ambient sunlight...*
I wouldn't have said there was definitive information regarding rejection of sunlight -- merely speculation at this point.


Actually, looking back I see that you're the one who initially stated above...

Quote:

_Originally posted by trpltongue_
*I was also told that it did not work well with ambient daylight. I was told that the filters work well at differentially rejecting ambient lighting from indoor lighting such as fluorescent and incandescant bulbs, but not from sunlight.*
Who was it that told you this information?


----------



## trpltongue

The information was passed to me by someone at Cedia who spoke with the Sony rep there.


I never said it was difinitive, but like pricing, was a quote from a Sony rep.


Believe me, I truly hope that it does work with indirect sunlight, as that is my main problem.


----------



## Ryan Wright

Nah - sunlight is my only issue. I can watch movies just fine with the interior lights dimmed. And I can eliminate the sunlight if I have to, but I don't really want to... If it is true that this screen won't help with sunlight, then it doesn't do me any good.


----------



## melechmet

I've heard otherwise, that indirect sunlight will be rejected. I guess we'll have to wait for the anouncement.


----------



## Ryan Wright

Maybe I'll sit tight, then. Deal with this white wall for awhile. Maybe try a cheap DIY screen to get me by if I have to. I'd hate to drop $2,500 on a Firehawk only to find 6 months later that this screen makes all other screens obsolete. I figure I'll own this screen for some long time period to be measured in decades, so what's another few months to wait for an announcement...


----------



## trpltongue

Ryan,


I would definitely wait for an announcement from Sony. Everything including pricing has been speculation only so far. Even though the info has come from Sony reps, there has been conflicting reports about what the reps were stating, as you can read here.


IMO, it is definitely worth a while to wait and get the actual details when this screen begins to be manufactured.


Russell


----------



## TheFerret

BUMP


----------



## mbaxter

Is this new screen angular or retroreflective?


----------



## TheFerret

I think it swings both ways.


----------



## noah katz

"be subtracting two letters each time"


edit: that should be "swings both ways"


That would mean it's not directional, contrary to reports by those who've seen it.


----------



## The who

I have the best possible screen you could get. It's called the "Night screen" cost me about $50 and works best after 8:00 PM.

Who watches movies during the day anyway?


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by The who_
*I have the best possible screen you could get. It's called the "Night screen" cost me about $50 and works best after 8:00 PM.

Who watches movies during the day anyway? *
Not CRT owners. Especially ones who think big screens are only for movies.  


--Darin


----------



## TheFerret

The two of you (the who, darin) are nuts. I watch movies during the day, which is exactly why I have a bat cave. Of course, I am not normal, which many will testify at my trial.


----------



## noah katz

fixed my misquote, should have been


"swings both ways"


That would mean it's not directional, contrary to reports by those who've seen it.


----------



## TheFerret

Noah, I was joking. I use that phrase to apply to my fantasy women: they swing both ways.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by TheFerret_
*The two of you (the who, darin) are nuts. I watch movies during the day, which is exactly why I have a bat cave.*
I watch movies during the day also. I was somewhat joking. There are lots of people who don't care about anything but movies, but I think they are in the minority and will especially be so after light control becomes less of an issue. I think most people would watch at least one of:


HD Sports (like the Olympics or the Superbowl)

HDNet or DiscoveryHD (like Bikini Destinations)

Network HD shows (like Desperate Housewives, Lost, or the Academy Awards)


on a big screen if they had a setup that would allow it. And I don't think most people think that a lights out bat cave is the best place for material like this or that they should have to wait until the sun goes down.


--Darin


----------



## mbaxter

Back to the subject of the upcoming Sony black screens - today I was seriously comtemplating the purchase of a Panny AE700, and with it a new screen, but had to abandon any upgrade thoughts because of this new Sony technology. It has introduced this big unknown into the decision making process where I'm having to ask myself: will the projector I buy today be incompatible with a black screen?


Nobody seems to know for certain at this point.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by mbaxter_
*Nobody seems to know for certain at this point.*
True. I would say that we can say that Xenon projectors (like the Qualia) are less likely to work with this screen when it does come out and that if the screen is introduced before the HS51 is replaced with a new model, then it is very likely that it will work well with the HS51. Especially considering that this is the projector that was used to demo it at CEDIA. My guess is that it will work with the AE700 based on the bulb technology, but projectorcentral.com lists that as having a UHM bulb and I'm not sure how the color peaks are from that one. It is possible that the screen will work reasonably well with some projectors even if the bands that they reflect aren't ideal. Overall, I would say that the HS51 is the best bet for compatibility though.


--Darin


----------



## timtimes

Anybody who's bought a DLP for their home theater at this point is by default, an early adopter (in marketing parlance). My experience is probably a little different than most. I bought my DLP sight unseen, as in never having seen ANY DLP. I bought the Benq 6200 based on price, reviews, etc.


My first foray into front projection came as a result of my readings at diyaudio.com (in the DIY video section). I bought an overhead projector and LCD panel off Ebay for $200 and hooked it up to my tuner-enabled PC. The LCD panel had a horrible contrast ratio (150:1), 640 x 480 resolution with 'thousands' of colors! lol. It was worth every penny of the $200 I paid. Considering the setup originally would have cost almost $5000 in 1996 when the stuff was 'cutting edge', I felt like it was money well spent. I now consider it as my first 'proof of concept' in the front projector arena. It pales in comparison to the DLP. My wife was extremely skeptical (though SILENTLY so) when I ordered my Benq (visualapex.com). She was an instant convert when it arrived. I began preaching the good news to everybody I knew. I carried the projector to work one day and set it up in an unused conference room during lunch. The reaction of my coworkers was priceless. I've been inundated for details (where to buy, how much, etc.) since then.


I worked in A/V sales at the retail level from age 22-40 (or thereabouts). The last seven years I've worked in sales for an Internet company. I firmly believe that front DLP will SERIOUSLY cut into the plasma, LED, etc market based on what I've witnessed in terms of the people who've I've introduced to this technology. This Sony screen will just be the icing on the cake IMHO. Ultimately, IT'S GONNA COME DOWN TO SIZE. I was prepared to spend $3000 on a plasma, but THERE ARE issues with them, and the BIGGEST issue is their SMALL SIZE in comparison to their LARGE price-tags. Once you've experienced a movie projected MOVIE SIZE, there really isn't any other format that compares!


If folks are willing to spend $3k for a dinky plasma, why is it so difficult to believe they wouldn't spend the same amount on a DLP with the (e.g.) Sony screen, when they'll be getting a screen size in the 80-100" range? Some of you say "Joe Sixpack" isn't going to want to fool with the installation issues. Fair enough RIGHT NOW, but there is absolutely NOTHING preventing the manufacturers from incorporating HD tuners, Wireless speakers, etc. into the mix. They could/would likely follow the satellite example of 'free installation' that has become de rigeur. How many people own satellite receivers now that they don't have to climb on the roof to install their own dish?


The WOW factor in owning a FP (be it either DLP or an upper end LCD unit) cannot be overstated. Big box RP, no matter what tech you use to drive it (CRT/DLP/LCD) just doesn't have the same 'panache' that comes with having a TRUE CINEMA LIKE experience right at home.


Something else to consider is the space saving aspect FP. Try not to laugh at this 'made for Mississippi moment' because even/especially urban folk are space limited, but if you've never had the 'pleasure' of delivering and setting up a big box RP television to a mobile home you're not really living.


Enjoy.


----------



## mbaxter

Nice monologue, but what the hell did any of that have to do with this thread?


----------



## trpltongue

There was mention earlier of the possibility that a mid cost projector matched with the Sony screen would result in a less expensive combo ($5Kish) that would steal sales from extremely expensive plasma displays in the 60" range.


I think that it would be a very real possibility that businesses could start selling the Sony screen/HS51 combo with installation for a reasonable price and generate sales from people who love an 80" big screen but can't justify the 60" plasma price.


----------



## timtimes

For clarifying my monologue for the masses.


----------



## trpltongue

no problem


----------



## Bass

Regarding the fact that this new (and VERY exciting) Sony blackscreen only reflects the pure red, green and blue basic colours, how will it deal with a projector with an attached colour-filter? Here are my 2 thoughts:

*Thought 1:* only the brightness level (and not the wavelength) of the individual red, green and blue colours are changed using filtering. That means that the Sony blackscreen should work OK because it still has to reflect the pure primary colours.

*Thought 2:* if projector-filtering ALSO changes the wavelength of the projected red, green and blue colours then maybe the Sony blackscreen has a problem with this.


I like to buy a Panasonic AE700 which is filtered/calibrated the "Cine4Home.de"-way but if filtering (which is needed for combining enough lumens and 1:2000 contrast level on this projector) is affecting the picture quality on the Sony blackscreen, I might be better off waiting for the Sony HS51.


----------



## JimP

Quote:

_Originally posted by HTCrazy_
*Overall, the HS51 at CEDIA looked noticeably better with the Firehawk screen than it did with the black screen. Although I guess the real question is how good the black screen would look with the lights out. One thing is for sure though, it definitely had a fairly small viewing cone.*


Two questions.


When you saw the HS51 at CEDIA with the Firehawk and the black screen, was it with lights on or lights off?


In your mention of a fairly small viewing cone, just how small are we talking about??


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by JimP_
*When you saw the HS51 at CEDIA with the Firehawk and the black screen, was it with lights on or lights off?*
I think he pretty much covered that the black screen impression was with the lights on (since he speculated about how it would look with the lights out) and I know the Firehawk demo was with the lights out (other than leaking around the curtain). The black screen demo was with lights pointed right on the screen. I think the only thing this tells us is how the black screen with lights pointed right at it looks compared to the Firehawk in a light controlled environment. It tells us nothing about how the following comparisons would look:


No ambient light: Firehawk vs black screen

Ambient light: Firehawk vs black screen


Other than the fact that many of us know from experience that shining lights directly on a Firehawk like that would have looked much worse than the HS51 with black screen demo.


--Darin


----------



## bootron

This time of year with football and basketball I find myself watching less movies. So I catch myself wishing for a screen that looks pretty good and still allows me to leave the lights on. Maybe once the seasons end I would want a regular matte white screen or something else, but the way I see it is that for a couple months I could use the black screen and if I really wasnt that impressed with watching movies on it I could just hang up a cheap pull down screen somehow and have a matte white screen and just not use the black screen. I am not discouraged when he says the firehawk looks better with the lights off than the black screen looked with the lights on. However, if you can compare the two screen results at all then the black screen must be doing a pretty darn good job with the lights on. T he only real drawback I would have is if the viewing cone was very narrow. I dont want to be the only person that can enjoy watching the sports on a huge screen.

Is it possible that Sony is waiting to release this screen with a certain projector they have coming out? I think it would be good marketing on their part to blow open the market with this new screen and a projector that works well on it by releasing the two products at the same time. They wouldn't want everybody rushing out to get the screen and then deciding to buy somebody elses projector. Are there any scheduled projectors coming out from sony that are a good possibility to be a joint release with the screen?


----------



## E Jackson

I think it's more likely Sony is working on making screen manufacturers nervous and enthusiasts more and more comfortable with paying a substantial amount more than the "$500...err..we mean $2,000...err...we meant to say..."


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by bootron_
*Is it possible that Sony is waiting to release this screen with a certain projector they have coming out? I think it would be good marketing on their part to blow open the market with this new screen and a projector that works well on it by releasing the two products at the same time. They wouldn't want everybody rushing out to get the screen and then deciding to buy somebody elses projector. Are there any scheduled projectors coming out from sony that are a good possibility to be a joint release with the screen?*
My guess is that Sony is still working on the screen and everything to get it out in volumes. If they make what they stated at CEDIA (before next summer) then I think there will be plenty of HS51s out there at that time that I think Sony will want to make sure are compatible with this screen. The line that has the HS51 usually has one projector come out between September and December, so I don't see a replacement for that being part of a joint release unless the screen schedule slips. It is possible that something in the SXRD line could come out at the same time as the screen, but I think that would mean a UHP bulb instead of the xenon bulb currently in the Qualia.


--Darin


----------



## TheFerret

You know, what would be interesting is if Sony were to develop a method for producing and transporting monochromatic light (i.e. three wavelengths of light that are, say 10nm wide each) and mate this to a screen that accepts only these three light pulses in their screens.


By doing so, they can initially eliminate the competition--but also lose some potential sales.


----------



## E Jackson

Quote:

_Originally posted by TheFerret_
*......By doing so, they can initially eliminate the competition--but also lose some potential sales.*
Quite the tap dance.


----------



## mark_1080p

Quote:

_Originally posted by timtimes_
*Once you've experienced a movie projected MOVIE SIZE, there really isn't any other format that compares!


Something else to consider is the space saving aspect FP.*
Its surprising to me that more people are not thinking this way. Visiting the local BB or CC, or Tweeter, however, there is not much going on in front projection. Perhaps its coming, and setups where the HS51, Benq, HT1100, or other reasonably priced PJ's can be seen could, IMO, convert lots of people.


Couple these with a black screen, and we really could have a breakthrough. But the big B+M's - will they set aside space and price a decent PJ reasonably ?


----------



## timtimes

Without a screen like the Sony being discussed in this thread, it's difficult to display DLP in a high brightness retail environment. I do have a theory that the retailers are deliberately keeping FP out of the public view so as to maximize their profits with LCD/plasma. I do have a report of a big box retailer here in Jackson displaying FP this year. I haven't braved the holiday shoppers to see first hand, but the way it was described to me, they were running a FP at a small size (probably to compensate for the bright environment) with a note that said "Projects from 3 to 12 feet diagonal" So it's a start.


Enjoy.


----------



## Kevin_Wadsworth

FWIW, there is one store in my area that has a projector setup - The Great Indoors. They have a pretty decent electronics section (better quality A/V equipment than you'd find at Best Buy, but lower than a specialty store), and they have one light controlled room where they have a projector mounted. Unfortunately, their projector isn't set up all that well - mediocre colors and a lot of screen door.


----------



## timtimes

Well that might fit into my tinfoil hat retail conspiracy against FP. I can just see the 'scene' played out like this......


The salesperson wants to sell a high dollar plasma, but the customer is vaguely aware of this new FP stuff. Salesperson walks customer into the FP showroom where they've got a crappy setup. Proceeds to demean FP while hyping plasma and LCD. Says something like.."One of these days they'll probably work the bugs out of this FP stuff, but I wouldn't buy into it just yet". Customer feels like they've adequately comparison shopped having seen FP in person. Customer then pulls out $3000 for a dinky plasma. Salesman congratulates customer on an his/her excellent decision making process. Salesman eats steak dinner that evening content that all is well in his world.


Enjoy.


----------



## MoG

We are moving into a new house this month with an excellent game/media room. Even prewired for 7.1 sound.


Anyway, I'm seriously considering a FP instead of a 5' RP TV.


Just wanted to add my names to the many waiting for more information on this screen...reviews, price, availability, anything!


thx.


----------



## mbaxter

I wonder if DLP projectors would work with this Sony black screen... I know the color wheel segments are red, green, and blue but it would be interesting to know if these frequencies vary much from the RGB of an LCD pj like the HS51 that was used to demo the new Sony screen.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by mbaxter_
*I wonder if DLP projectors would work with this Sony black screen... I know the color wheel segments are red, green, and blue but it would be interesting to know if these frequencies vary much from the RGB of an LCD pj like the HS51 that was used to demo the new Sony screen.*
My guess is that they will work if their bulbs are close enough (and I think many of them are). The biggest problem seems to be with Xenon bulbs because they have so much spread over the spectrum.


--Darin


----------



## howard29

Quote:

_Originally posted by trpltongue_
*I was also told that it did not work well with ambient daylight. I was told that the filters work well at differentially rejecting ambient lighting from indoor lighting such as fluorescent and incandescant bulbs, but not from sunlight. If that is the case, it's a lot less useful.

Russell*
I wouldn't say it's a lot less useful, in mine and a lot of my friend's home theater setups, we all have either no windows in the theater room or very good room darkening shades on our windows, which is the same for I would say probably most other people who own front projectors. The problem then becomes being able to have some room lights on a sufficient levels such that the theater is more flexible to the family, e.g. if I want to watch a football game and my wife wants to sit in there and read a book, etc. things like that. I'd say that's a fairly common gripe, which if this screen helps with that problem, I and many others would be interested.


----------



## kbtv

FYI: I've been looking at some of Sony's published patent applications on screens on JPO's website (you can get machine translations as well) and noticed a very recent one in which they seem to acknowledge still a problem with direct daylight from windows (since the daylight includes the same wavelengths as the projector). This particular patent application discloses using a window film that only transmits light wavelegths that are other than those put out by the projector (all others reflected back outside).


----------



## TheFerret

Sony shouldn't worry about sunlight unless they plan on marketing this also as a presentation screen in addition to a home theater screen. Also, as a presentation screen in board rooms a window film probably is an easy acceptance for a combination-solution for the results at hand.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by TheFerret_
*Sony shouldn't worry about sunlight unless they plan on marketing this also as a presentation screen in addition to a home theater screen.*
I disagree. Many people would love to be able to get rid of the blackout blinds in their homes and this feature would help sell screens (and window treatments). I see window tinting as much more acceptable than blackout blinds. If it weren't required by the technology I think the people watching football and sitcoms in the dark would be in the minority. And having an option for tinting windows instead of using blackout blinds doesn't mean that some people can't still choose the blackout blinds. They could also have tinted shades that you could pull down if there aren't any issues with that being robust.


In short, if they don't worry about sunlight for home theater I think they will be leaving lots of money on the table.


I do think this will be popular with businesses though. Tinting windows and/or covering lights (to block out some wavelengths) and/or getting special light bulbs shouldn't be a big problem for many.


If I get one of these screens I may look for light bulbs that match up well with it.


--Darin


----------



## ericlhyman

I've read a brief mention that Arisawa will have a black screen as well. Can anyone shed some light on this (pardon the pun) relative to the Sony?


----------



## TheFerret

Hey Darin, I did do a follow-up reply on your reply to me, but I just noticed it never showed up!


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by TheFerret_
*Hey Darin, I did do a follow-up reply on your reply to me, but I just noticed it never showed up!*
I hope it wasn't too good. Was it something like, "If there is any ambient light then it isn't Home Theater."?  


--Darin


----------



## TheFerret

LOL, now that would be cruel of me, wouldn't it. Nah, more along the lines that between HD & Lowes selling consumer window tint for the home, a neighbor of mine already having tinted his sunny-side of the house, and my personal desires to tint the southernly-side of my home, I would think that this be too offensive of an approach for having to use tinting with this screen.


Of course, now that you've armed my brain with more offensive weapons I will agree. It ain't a HT if it has windows to the outside of the world--lest they be HD windows.


----------



## Kevin_Wadsworth

For anyone interested the relevant US patent application seems to be No. 20040240053. ( www.uspto.gov to look it up)


It's a fairly good read, although the basic summaries of the technology that have been presented in this thread and elsewhere capture the essence. I found it interesting that the patent spends a bit of time talking about grating light valve projectors; another Sony technology announced with great fanfare but which has yet to be seen on a store shelf.


----------



## TheFerret

GLV will be a wonderful technology for my grandchildren.


----------



## E Jackson

I guess waiting for the release of this screen is like waiting for guffman...


----------



## MoG

Quote:

_Originally posted by E Jackson_
*I guess waiting for the release of this screen is like waiting for guffman...*
I'm really hoping for non-vaporware info at CES!!!


----------



## audiomagnate

"I guess waiting for the release of this screen is like waiting for guffman..."


Or Godot. Maybe we're simply living in the place where The Black Screen isn't.


Painful is what it is, down right painful. I come back to this thread every two months or so, and nothing has changed! Can we get Mississsppi Mud Man on this? This screen would solve all my problems, or most of them anyway.


----------



## MoG

So is our screen called "Chromavue"?

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050105/law060_1.html 


"The company touted new ways to show high-definition video such as the new 80-inch Chromavue screen with black screen technology, designed to reflect ambient light for an enhanced home theater experience even during the daytime."


----------



## MoG

oh...and at the end of the news release...


"For further information, please contact John Dolak, +1-858-942-2905, [email protected] , for Sony Electronics Inc"


----------



## gergg

Sony was showing the Chromavue black screen at CES. It was 80" diagonal and should be available around April for about 2K. I put some info about it on my updates at rcpotato.blogdrive.com.


----------



## TheFerret

70"x39" for $2K is kind of high, but that is just their _suggested_ list pricing. I presumed the "80" diagonal" was for an HDTV format and not an NTSC format.


----------



## pieroxy

Hi have a few questions here to the people that seems to know something:

1. Where did you hear the release date and price ?

2. Did anyone actually wrote an email to the guy ([email protected])?

3. If 2 is no, can we just discuss of a bunch of questions to ask him, so that we ca group 1 big email with all questions, which will be easier for him to answer than 1000 random mails. We could also try to make it an "official email" from avsforum (with the approval of some moderators).


That would be a way of knowing more in one shot and sharing it with the community.


My questions would be:

1. When

2. How much (pretty straightforward so far)

3. In what format (fixed frame, retractable...)

4. Will it be available worldwide ?

5. Will it work with LCD, DLP, CRT?

6. Will it work with other brands of FP?


Cheers


----------



## Kevin_Wadsworth

Antoher qeustion (really, a subcategory of pieroxyâ€™s #2):

7. What aspect ractios will it be available in? (4:3, 16:9, 2.35:1)


----------



## ericlhyman

Do they plan to make this available in larger sizes later?


----------



## ericlhyman

Are there any specs for how much ambient light is reduced, gain, brightness, and contrast? If so, how does this screen compare to the DaLite High-Power?


----------



## TraderGordo

[Got a reponse today from another company that is supposed to be releaseing a similar product this year. Not all that informative -- he did not answer most of my questions.]


Thank you for your e-mail.

I am sorry that a reply becomes late.


We are going to release a product by the end of this year.

I think that a product announcement will be made at the time of a release.


Best Regards,

Noritaka Egashira


Dai Nippon Printing Co., Ltd.

Research & Development Center




>I am excited about your new screens:

>

> http://www.dnp.co.jp/eng/news/2004/040525.html 

>

>

>

>Is it true that Sony is licensing this from you?

>

>Any idea when it will be available for purchase or sizes or cost?

>

>

>

>Thanks!

>

>


----------



## WynsWrld98

Another question: will they be selling the material separately for DIYers?


----------



## Souki

Sony has officially announced the 80" ChromaVue wall panel, weighing in at 17 pounds, for about $2000 USD. Available in spring 2005.

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5516


----------



## noah katz

"[Got a reponse today from another company that is supposed to be releaseing a similar product this year. Not all that informative -- he did not answer most of my questions.]"


Interesting, I got the identically worded response to my inquiry.


I believe the dnp uses a different principle, polarized light, vs, Sony's selective wavelength filter.


----------



## pieroxy

A few things I don't get from the press release:


1. "2,764,800 pixel resolution (1280x720)", it looks like they overestimated the resolution of their projector. AFAIK, 1280*720 

2. "Sony has developed an ideal partner for its VPL-HS51 projector". Does that mean these screens will work only with the HS51?


----------



## mcmanus1000

Will an electrically retractable version be available?


----------



## TheFerret

Holy sh!t, did anyone aside from myself read toward the end where it says the HS51 also incorporates the proprietary LCD panels for this screen? Is the '80' in width or diagonal--I think I missed that.


----------



## reaper

No, Ferret, I did not read that. The closest I come to seeing a statement like that is this:


""This screen is optimized to provide outstanding picture performance from Sony's VPL-HS51 projector, enabling images and video to be delivered at their best.""


I don't see that it it saying that the HS51 is optimized for this screen, I do see that it says that the screen is optimized for the HS51. That's a big difference.


Sony usually states image size in diagonal. We went through this with the user guide for the HS51. I would expect they are using the same standard here.


pieroxy, the 2,764,800 pixels come from 1280x720x3 since there are 3 seperate panels. I think this is HR marketing hype and misleading to the consumer.


reaper


----------



## TheFerret

My correction, and to the benefit of saving my CC. Thanks.


----------



## mbaxter

Still no word on whether the Sony black screen is angular or retroreflective ... that's a very important distinction; sure would be nice to know.


----------



## TheFerret

Was this even present at CES?


----------



## gergg

Yes, it was at CES. I saw it at 2 different places. The Sony booth and the 3LCD booth. It looked OK at the Sony booth with a lot of lights around, but it looked fantastic at the 3LCD booth with no light directly on it. I hope to post some pictures I took soon.


----------



## mbaxter

Here's a pretty informative article about the Chromavue at CES:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/578/578385p1.html


----------



## JackPeterson

During my visit to Stewart's CES booth one of the reps told me that they actually developed the black screen technology for Sony, and would be releasing these screens in the next few months in various configurations. She said they were actually demoing it at the show for stewart distributors only. I tend not to believe her due to the fact that they would have announced it at CES if they had it, unless some sort of contractual obligation prevented them from doing so. I hope she was telling the truth, but at this point I think its a little like believing in Santa Clause. But if anyone saw the mysterious stewart prototype please let us know. Also include in your post which reindeers were carrying the screen.


----------



## Kevin_Wadsworth

Thanks for the article link, mbaxter. It's good to see a review of the screen by someone who has at least seen a projection scren before and knows what to look for.


Itâ€™s nice to at least have a release date and price for the screen â€“ although for $2000 I personally would like something a little larger than 80â€. Maybe weâ€™ll get some promising news from Stewart, although I canâ€™t see why they would have ground-breaking technology that they refuse to show anyone. And if Stewart is claiming to have developed the black screen technology, why is the patent application for the relevant technology in Sonyâ€™s name?


----------



## Rick Guynn

Quote:

And if Stewart is claiming to have developed the black screen technology, why is the patent application for the relevant technology in Sonyâ€™s name?
Well, *if* what the Stewart rep said is true, the only way I could see that is if Sony contracted with Stewart to develop the technology. Essentially, they paid for the study/development. In such a case, Sony would own the technology and Stewart would likely get a very favorable licensing agreement for the resulting product.


Now whether the rep is correct or not.....


RG


----------



## Jedi

...I saw the Sony black screen at the Sony booth, and, I'm sorry to say, it looked absolutely dreadful. They were using the HS51 as the pj and under ordinary room light conditions. The screen size looked to be around 55-60" diag, 16X9. The blacks looked about medium gray, and the overall image was dim with minimal contrast. At first I thought this couldn't be their black screen, but upon closer inspection, the label indicated it was. What a dissapointment. Up close you could make out fine glowing specs of red, green and blue speckles, shimmering to create the image.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by JackPeterson_
*During my visit to Stewart's CES booth one of the reps told me that they actually developed the black screen technology for Sony, and would be releasing these screens in the next few months in various configurations.*
I'm sure that Stewart didn't develop this screen for Sony as at CEDIA Don told a couple of us about problems with it (like a red push under ambient light) and how Sony had to spend a lot of time getting it and the ambient light set up with the HS51. He also indicated that they would have their own ambient light rejecting screen to compete, so I don't find it surprising that there are rumors of Stewart showing a demo to some people.


--Darin


----------



## TheFerret

Good news, if accurate. Please read this . For those that cannot open that page, here is an except:

_Sony's CES press conference showcased their 3LCD-based VPH-HS51 "Cineza" front-projector using an eye-catching 80-inch "Black Screen" screen dubbed "ChromaVue". While the HS51 is "only" 720p, the quality gave us a taste for the 1080p designs that are sure to follow. The VHP-HS51 projector is available now for $3500 (MSRP). Available this spring, the HCS-W80 "Black Screen" will retail for $1500 (MSRP)._


If they are correct in their reporting, the MSRP is $1500, and not $2000.


----------



## MoG

Does 80" refer to the diagonal or horizontal of the screen?


----------



## TheFerret

Unfortunately, I do not know.


----------



## djbluemax1

Chroma Vue screen being released Spring '05, 80" diagonal. MSRP of $2000. straight from the horse's mouth. Managed to question the Sony reps who were there especially for ther screen. Projected release of larger sizes forthcoming, but no word on the actual sizes or prices. Also stated that the screen although designed with the HS51 as a reference should work with any UHP powered PJ including most current LCDs and DLPs.


----------



## TheFerret

Has anyone determines how filtration will affect the screen's performance? Suppose you want to color correct using filters?


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by TheFerret_
*Has anyone determines how filtration will affect the screen's performance? Suppose you want to color correct using filters?*
I wouldn't expect color filters to be a problem. They don't change the wavelengths of the light, they just block some.


--Darin


----------



## Michael Grant

I believe the screen was 80" diagonal at the Sony demo area, and the note next to the screen said it would retail for $2K.


----------



## triodeuser

Quote:

_Originally posted by Michael Grant_
*I believe the screen was 80" diagonal at the Sony demo area, and the note next to the screen said it would retail for $2K.*
Guesstimating area - that would work out to around $110 per square foot -


If they eventually offer larger sizes increase and charge roughly the same per square foot would be about $3500 for one to replace my 52 x 92.


I wonder if it is rigid and must be shipped as one flat piece or is pliable and can be rolled up for shipping?


Regards


Ken L


----------



## TheFerret

$2K for an 80" diagonal doesn't impress me much.


----------



## djbluemax1

$2k definitely doesn't impress me for 80". As a screen for use in ambient light, it was fairly impressive since the screen was displayed on a flat wall in a room with lights for all the other items, but it still wasn't incredible and didn't reject all ambient light. In fact, the screen didn't look that dark when nothing was projected on it. It simply looked like a dark grey screen, not black as would be expected if it was good at rejecting all artificial light.


I'd say this would be more of a novelty for people not concerned with absolute CR and probably a good thing for presentations where there will be quite a bit of ambient light. For the more serious HT'ers, I don't think it's going to see a lot of sales. Then again, it'll also work for the people going for the 'family room' approach, i.e. those who don't really care about absolute CR and PQ and would like to have lights on while watching TV or whatever.


----------



## b.greenway

2k impresses the hell out of me if it means I donâ€™t have to wait until dark to watch a movie anymore.


Vaulted ceilings with skylights arenâ€™t very forgiving at high noon.


----------



## mbaxter

To those of you who have seen this screen in action, based on the placement of the projector, did the Chromavue appear to be angular reflective, or retrereflective?


Hint: if the projector was ceiling mounted, the screen is angular reflective. If the projector was table or floor mounted (or ceiling mounted at a very low height), it could be retroreflective.


----------



## Jedi

....the set-up in the main Sony display room had the screen and projector mounted high, the screen bottom was nearly higher than a person standing. Not sure why. Normal room lighting. The image looked dismal compared to the group of RPTV's situated below.


----------



## mbaxter

Sounds like it's angular reflective then. That's good news as far as I'm concerned, though I hope this screen performs better than you indicate, Jedi. Looking forward to more reviews on this thing.


----------



## catapult

Comparing to an RPTV with the lights on isn't really fair. The screenshot posted earlier in this thread, comparing to a white screen, shows what you're getting.

http://reaper.us/assets/images/BlackScreen2.jpg


----------



## QQQ

Quote:

_Originally posted by TheFerret_
*$2K for an 80" diagonal doesn't impress me much.*
It impresses me  .


----------



## TheFerret

Hey catapult, I remember the picture from another show. What would have been nice is a reference idicator like a person standing at the line of screen material (a short person so as to not block all of the line itself).


As such, I have no real way to judge how much light is in the room.


QQQ, would it impress you more if it were 80" for $1500?


----------



## mike.cf

Quote:

_Originally posted by TheFerret_
*Hey catapult, I remember the picture from another show. What would have been nice is a reference idicator like a person standing at the line of screen material (a short person so as to not block all of the line itself).*
I remember someone posting such a picture here before. They looked fully illuminated.


----------



## triodeuser

Quote:

_Originally posted by TheFerret_
*...... impress you more if it were 80" for $1500?*
If it were 92" _wide_ for $1500 I would already be socking the money away


_big grin_


regards


Ken L


----------



## TheFerret

Like that _certain_ frequency that is suppose to make the ladies groove, I wish someone would come up with a screen that would induce women into an auto-eroticism condition.


I bet some of us would be paying a lot more for it.


----------



## bootron

Quote:

_Originally posted by TheFerret_
*Hey catapult, I remember the picture from another show. What would have been nice is a reference idicator like a person standing at the line of screen material (a short person so as to not block all of the line itself).


As such, I have no real way to judge how much light is in the room.


QQQ, would it impress you more if it were 80" for $1500?*
here is a link to tryg's website from before. scroll down a little bit and you will see the picture with 2 people standing off to the sides of the screen.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=445811 


hope that helps some of you


----------



## catapult

Here's Tryg's photo so we can keep it in this thread. Notice the guy's head casting a shadow on the lower right corner of the white screen. If Sony's 1.7 gain claim is accurate, it should be a good screen with the lights off as well as when they are on.

http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/bos08.jpg


----------



## Jedi

....these screenshots appear all to be in a very controlled light environment. The display at CES was in normal room light, and trust me, the image was really poor -- dim, minimal contrast, and medium grey blacks, and absolutely no punch whatsoever. While it would be fabulous to be able to enjoy a bright and vibrant projector image in normal room light -- this thing doesn't even come close. Yes, under normal room light it does yields better contrast than a white screen, but in an absolute perspective all that is really saying is that it turns an unwatchable image into a really bad image.


----------



## 90c4

My interest would be more in having it turn a relatively bad image into a great or pretty good image. Everyone seems to be negative on this screen because they are comparing it to their expectations of what it should be, and perhaps what it's advertised as being, but if it yields better contrast with low ambient light, then it sounds great to me.


----------



## noah katz

"While it would be fabulous to be able to enjoy a bright and vibrant projector image in normal room light -- this thing doesn't even come close."


Let's be realistic. A single 100 W incandescent light bulb puts out 1700 L; how bright would that make your room at night? Not very. So a daylit room has many thousands of lumens worth of illumination.


So even if a screen rejected all ambient light and reflected all pj light, it wouldn't be that bright.


----------



## Jedi

....perhaps I'm being overcritical of the screen's performance. The important point is to encourage potential buyers to not run out and order one of these based upon screen shots or heresay picked up on this forum. This is one screen you definitely need to view in person, and in the kind of light environment you have in mind. Only then can you judge for yourself if this is the kind of image you're after and is the quality worth the price.


----------



## catapult

Good advice Jedi.


A couple of things occur to me - just thinking out loud, I haven't seen it. You said the screen was mounted above standing level. It's a high-gain screen so I'm wondering if that might put you out of the optimum viewing cone. As well, I wonder what kind of bulbs were being used for the room lighting. There was some speculation earlier that one might have to experiment with bulbs to find ones that didn't mimic the spectrum of the PJ, e.g. incandescent vs. fluorescent vs. high intensity. Also, if the thing was surrounded by RPTVs, they would most likely be putting out the very kind of light the screen is designed to reflect.


----------



## bootron

i think the negative criticism is as much needed as all the positive. with that said though, its hard to judge anything until you see the final product. i think whenever watching a real movie i will be much happier when viewing with the lights off. whether or not the picture is super bright with the lights on or not i still would prefer the lights off. however, how many people saw an HD football game with lights on? i can already watch a game with a little ambient light, but if i could get friends over, turn on the lights, and watch the superbowl then the screen would be worth it. also, for regular television viewing it should yield good results. then comes a scenario in which none of us know about, how well the screen does with lights off. if i don't get superb results with no lights on then i won't want to buy the screen because it will defeat the purpose of having that great movie theater feel with a brilliant breath taking image. the screen is very expensive, but honestly how many people expected the technology to be much cheaper than being quoted here? i do believe they are cutting out a huge portion of the market, but they are also trying to display it with a very expensive projector. this pricing and marketing won't bust front projectors to the top of the food chain like people had expected before, but it will provide better results in more situations in which FP's just couldnt be used before. also, tryg's review where i found the projector said it was being used with 800 lumens. i wonder if thats the stated specs of the projector or if it was something less than that. i'm guessing that its the hs-51. does anybody have any information on just how bright the projector is? and what do people think the quality would be when used with a dlp light cannon? say something as bright as the 6200 or the ezpro 739. many dlp projectors are brighter than the sony being displayed and although they don't produce the best image when combined with this screen they may be just the right combination for a good image in all situations. i don't believe that anybody buying a true expensive home theater projector is really wanting to use it often with the lights on. i think many people wanting this screen will be happier with a brighter projector that yields decent results and is fairly inexpensive.


----------



## ericlhyman

If a room has no ambient light problem at night and not a lot during the day (1 sliding glass door) covered with lined draperies, wouldn't it be a better choice to go with the Da-lite High Power?


----------



## triodeuser

Quote:

_Originally posted by catapult_
*Good advice Jedi......*
Yes

Quote:

_Originally posted by catapult_
*..... mounted above standing level. It's a high-gain screen so I'm wondering if that might put you out of the optimum viewing cone.*
That is something I was thinking about also. IIRC, one of the negatives about this screen is a narow viewing cone - if that is the case, there could possibly be quite a difference if the screen were at eye level.


Frankly, if would have to be impressive to warrant the MSRP


Regards


Ken L


----------



## mbaxter

Quote:

_Originally posted by ericlhyman_
*If a room has no ambient light problem at night and not a lot during the day (1 sliding glass door) covered with lined draperies, wouldn't it be a better choice to go with the Da-lite High Power?*
No, not if the projector is ceiling mounted.


----------



## bootron

Quote:

_Originally posted by mbaxter_
*No, not if the projector is ceiling mounted.*
thats true, but the idea is the same. for a normal home theater a standard screen will be just fine. if you don't battle ambient light then the chromavue screen will not be needed. this screen is for those people that wish to have some lights on when watching tv. all you have to choose when deciding on a standard screen is what gain you want it to be. the m2500, da-lite high power, and the vutec silverstar are still very good options if you want high gain. the m2500 will be better for you if you wish to have the projector ceiling mounted, whereas the high power really performs best when table mounted or closer to eye level.


this screen gets plenty of hype because for football, and standard television people want to have the lights on. if the image is decent with lights on then many people will be happy. i would like my image to be watchable for television, as long as i know that when its really movie time and i want to watch something spectacular i can still turn out the lights and be wowed. if you have a completely dark room then this screen will not be for you. don't wait to because you believe it will provide better contrast with the lights off. many standard screens really are more designed and better equiped to provide the best image under those circumstances.


many people have mentioned that the chromavue has a gain of 1.7. does anybody know what the viewing cone will be? what happens to the image as you get outside the viewing cone? does it become washed out like a regular screen does, does it hotspot, or do something else completely?


----------



## CrewNYC

I e-mail Kelly Gaffney who I believe is sony's PR rep for the Chromavue screen. I asked him about a larger sized screen and invited him to join avsforum.com. Here is the response I got from him that he allowed me to share with everyone.

Quote:

The ChromaVue is only available at this point in time at 80-inches. We have not announced plans to come out with additional sizes. Please continue to monitor Sony's news & information website for any future announcements on the Chromavue screen.


While we do closely monitor AVS Forum I'm not able to actually participate.

Please feel free to share this information.


Best, Kelly


----------



## TheFerret

Quote:

_Originally posted by catapult_
*Here's Tryg's photo so we can keep it in this thread. Notice the guy's head casting a shadow on the lower right corner of the white screen. If Sony's 1.7 gain claim is accurate, it should be a good screen with the lights off as well as when they are on.

http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/bos08.jpg *
Yeah, that last picture, catapult, shows how different the room lighting is at the screen and a little away from the screen.


----------



## JimP

Does anyone see a brightspot(or vignetting around the edges) on the darker side?


----------



## TheFerret

Could that be due to the off-axis screen gain?


----------



## JimP

Quote:

_Originally posted by TheFerret_
*Could that be due to the off-axis screen gain?*


That's what I was thinking too. For a 1.7 gain, it seems pretty severe. The picture does seem to show some lighting tricks to keep light off of the screen The guy on the right has quite a bit more light on him than the guy on the left whose closer to the screen.


Probably stand a better chance with a medium gray painted wall and two 2,000 lumen projectors blasting on it. With a 80" screen, how many footlambers would that be? lol


----------



## TheFerret

Its a marketing gimmick.


----------



## mbaxter

I suspect there is no reason to keep these black screens so small except to preserve Sony's own extensive rptv, lcd, and plasma business.


I guess it was too much of us to expect Sony to go and shoot itself in the foot!


With these Chromavue screens limited to only 80", there's going to be little motivation for most people to bother with front projection, not when the screen size is only marginally bigger than a 65" RPTV, which will cost less than the Chromavue+projector combo in most cases, and is easy to setup.


----------



## darkwire

What about convenience? I figure those who buy from chain stores just want to purchase a box, and be done with it.


You've got to mount and line up both the projector and screen, which requires more math and patience, than they are willing to give.


I sure hope sony does come out with a bigger screen though, 80 is just too small compared to the 100" I'm using.


----------



## triodeuser

Quote:

_Originally posted by mbaxter_
*I guess it was too much of us to expect Sony to go and shoot itself in the foot!
*
They may well shoot themselves in the foot more than they think.


Sony for real shot themselves in the foot with their marketing plan for SACD.


IIRC they deliberately delayed introduction of lower priced SACD players in order to milk the profits on their premium line of players.


Which of course limited the market for distribution of media while DVD-A got a better start - So where is SACD today? Looks more like an orphan than a media niche to me. There are SACD enthusiasts that feel the medium is doomed due to lmited library and distribution of media.


Regards


Ken L


----------



## QQQ

SACD never had a chance from the beginning. They could have put it in their $69 players and it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by mbaxter_
*I suspect there is no reason to keep these black screens so small except to preserve Sony's own extensive rptv, lcd, and plasma business.


I guess it was too much of us to expect Sony to go and shoot itself in the foot!


With these Chromavue screens limited to only 80", there's going to be little motivation for most people to bother with front projection, not when the screen size is only marginally bigger than a 65" RPTV, which will cost less than the Chromavue+projector combo in most cases, and is easy to setup.*
I believe it is just engineering. At one show they were using 4 separate panels with seams to make a screen big enough and so we had some clue that they may have been having difficulty making these at large sizes. I was still hoping they would start at 92" wide at a minimum. I think Sony would love to sell these at those sizes and even 120"+ to sell with $10k+ projectors (like more versions of the Qualia). I wouldn't see that as shooting themselves in the foot, just giving them a bigger market. If they thought it was going to shoot themselves in the foot then they could just price the big ones higher. Not that difficult to use marketing to protect things if they could actual make them at reasonable prices (and get them out to users without breaking them).


And if Sony doesn't make big ambient light rejecting screens then someone else will (like Stewart).


--Darin


----------



## bootron

right now you can get ambient light rejecting screens, but they are going to cost you. think $2500 for 60". thats a little bit more than the $1500 for 80". at $1500 its still only $500 more than a silverstar of about the same size (i could be wrong but i believe thats about right for pricing). i'm not saying that the pricing is amazing, but at least its a start. they are setting the bar and i think only competition can ensue.


darin is right, it probably can't be seamless above 80". they will probably quote somewhere that larger sizes are available using paneling, but will be much more expensive. maybe they can't afford to make them in all sorts of various sizes. they could just be testing the waters before starting full production on screens of all shapes and sizes.


also, other light rejecting screens require the projector to be mounted at a specific angle to the screen. if the sony is capable of dynamic projector placement then its already better than other light rejecting screens. the biggest problem i see with the screen is that sony won't be able to give out samples for people to test. this means that in order for people to really buy the screen they will be purchasing on heresay. unless of course stores like best buy or other home theater stores start stocking them. we all know how unlikely it will be to find a good home theater store and get a decent salesman.


maybe sony will market this screen to businesses. then maybe companies like staples, office depot, or office max might carry these screens or at least have a single store locally to view it. i could imagine this screen being worthwhile for a company trying to get brighter power point presentations and the screen wont necessarily break the bank.


----------



## HorrorScope

Yeah I'm just sitting over here awaiting its arrival. It seems steep in price... But I just wanted to mention the more I use my projector the more I realize when I'm just a viewer how much light can be on in the room and still give me a picture well worth watching. If you sit their critiquing it's going to be rated as crap, but I have a light literally 2 inches away from my screen that lights a large room adequately and I have had it on from time to time while watching HDTV and think nothing of it, unless I think of it and then I say, gee that's not really that bad. The more you own and watch your projector the more this all isn’t as relevant. Sure this screen will give us the deeper blacks back and that’s great! However the price and then the viewing cone we are hearing of. Gee I just have a $75 DYI screen that's really performing admirably at all angles.


Still without a doubt it's one of the most "to watch for" products coming though. I might just be on the sideline for the first couple/few years until it drops down into the $500 range, then I'd be all over it.


And to the screen shots of the new screen verses a standard screen, I can't recall ever having that poor of a standard screen even with the lights on, ok the only time I would have something like that was with sunlight directly on the screen.


----------



## rogo

The screen is rigid and has to be shipped flat in a box. That's at least one of the reasons it's not bigger. The rigid-screen companies have a devil of a time shipping stuff and Sony knows this. Obviously, bigger can be done and it might be at some point... But the goal is a flexible / rollable material, according to the screen's engineers. Perhaps in 2006, they had said at CEDIA. I got a similar, vague answer at CES from non-engineer types.


My experience with a projector in the daytime was that mere sunlight in the room was enough to kill a High Power. The Sony seems like it'll do much better in these "ambient light" conditions than almost anything else.


Is it worth it? Eye of the beholder. I'd take a rollable version.


----------



## 645824

>I've read a brief mention that Arisawa will have a black screen as well. Can anyone >shed some light on this (pardon the pun) relative to the Sony?

>

>__________________

>ericlhyman


I haven't seen this screen, but here is a link:

http://www.infocomm.org/index.cfm?ob...C6B9DC79042761 


According to the web page, the NEXY screen is available in 40" to 120" sizes (rigid). Also, a reference to this Mitsui Plastics developed screen appeared in one of the home theater magazines a couple months ago, but I don't remember which one.


And Goggling for NEXY yields this:

http://www.hometheaterblog.com/homet...not_alone.html 


and

http://www.chinadisplay.co.uk/nexy/f...echnology.html 


One issue appears to be that the acceptance angle of the screen is 26 degrees +/- 5 degrees. So it looks like I'd have to tilt it and flip it upside-down to get it to work in my 14 foot room with a ceiling mounted projector.


Scott


----------



## mbaxter

It's been stated that the Sony blackscreen is supposed to work with DLP projectors, but how can this be so? Many DLP projectors also emit cyan and/or yellow in addition to red, green, and blue.


----------



## JimP

It'll work, just not very well.


Just kidding. But this is one of those things you either eyeball yourself or wait for someone who doesn't have a vested interest in selling them has a chance to provide a critical review.


----------



## noah katz

"Many DLP projectors also emit cyan and/or yellow in addition to red, green, and blue"


I guess you mean the NEC 410/510? They have a yellow CW segment; I've never heard of a cyan one.


I'd think calibration could handle this, but with an extra loss in light output.


----------



## Jordan

As I understand it, the screen works on a limited bandpass reflection, so any projection of light outside of the existing three bands would be rejected. Expanded gamut DLP projectors would be SOL until/unless Sony decided to add those bands to the mix. That highly unlikely, as Sony doesn't produce a projector with expanded gamut (AFAIK), and the exact colors will likly vary from manufacturer to manufacturer to either (a) avoid patent issues or (b) try to get 0.000001% additional gamut over their competiters.


I think the most important demonstration of tryg's image is the diference in contrast between the matte material and the HC material. I've had a Sony 10HT in a room full of windows (lots of windows - 200+SF of windows for 800SF of floor space) and a HiPower screen. Even on-axis is was essentially unwatchable until late dusk. Of course, I have a RPTV right now which is almost unwatchable durin certain times of the day due to window glare - and shutting he blinds doens't make it better. If this could produce a marginal (i.e. watchable) image for sports, childrens TV shows, sitcoms, etc. during the day, it would be a hit.


To try and compare the image of this (during the day) to a matte screen in controlled environment (HT room with dark walls, ceiling, and floor) is foolish. A better comparison would be to a middling direct view or RP set in similar lighting conditions (those RP screens and DV tubes aren't black, you know). I can take slightly less in a fully black room if the trade of is acceptable casual viewing during the daytime.


It just so happens that the new house I'm in has some "fly space" above the living room (attic space), and the joists are oriented so that I could likely build a "retractable" screen from a moderately sized (possibly up to 120") fixed panel, though it would be far easier to get a tensioned roll-up. At $40-$50/sf it would be a stretch, but at $106/SF, this may be out of my reach (or comfort zone, at least).


----------



## Jordan

Forgot to chime in on the Mitsui screen. If the ridges are linear, the only rejection will be from the ceiling (not good for general ambient light). If they're circular, it may result in more stringent projector location (that may be the case, with projector angles at +/-5 degrees from optimal). But circular would be a royal PITA to clean if/when it got dusty!


----------



## noah katz

" I have a RPTV right now which is almost unwatchable durin certain times of the day due to window glare - and shutting he blinds doens't make it better. If this could produce a marginal (i.e. watchable) image for sports, childrens TV shows, sitcoms, etc. during the day, it would be a hit. "


I'd be surprised if it was as good as RPTV.


----------



## Erikb

This sounds like the ideal solution for my combination livingroom + home theater that I'm building. I can cover the windows but there will still be some ambient light around the edges of the shades and perhaps from an adjacent room. However, I'd like to go with a much bigger screen than 80".


How likely is it that Sony will come out with larger sizes and what kind of time frame do you expect? Are other manufacturers announcing comparable products?


----------



## inol

Has anyone bought/received it yet?


----------



## stanger89

I didn't see this posted yet, but it's listed on Sonystyle


The "ChromaVueâ„¢ High Contrast Black Screen"


Do a search for HS51 and it should come up next to the 51. The date is March 31.


----------



## mbaxter

That's encouraging the specs say "Works with other UHP projectors".

http://www.sonystyle.com/intershopro...650/HCSW80.jpg 


It looks like a giant plasma doesn't it? Very stylish appearance.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by mbaxter_
*That's encouraging the specs say "Works with other UHP projectors".
*
I'm excited to see this coming out now as I was expecting people to have to wait much longer. Although it is smaller than I would want I figure this is one step closer to making bigger sizes. I hope somebody near Seattle gets one and will show it off so that I can see it with a DLP (I could bring one of mine) or other projector.
Quote:

*It looks like a giant plasma doesn't it? Very stylish appearance. *
I think it is very stylish. However, those borders look very small to me. That could create a problem with keeping light from the projector from spilling off the sides.


--Darin


----------



## Minke

Thought I'd post a link to the SonyStyle site mentioned by stranger89:

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...ductSKU=HCSW80


----------



## Erikb

Nice screen, but too small.


What's the latest over/under date for a 120" version?


Before October, 2005?


I can't think of any technical reason that they can't scale it up, although I can understand that they might want to work on the manufacturing details on the 80" version for a while first.


----------



## melechmet

I've spoken to the Sony Style people in the NY store- they're not even planning to show the screen due to the "Qualia People" in the back of the demo area "taking up all the room." The latter, after some coaxing, said that Sony hasn't ironed out all the issues with the screen for it's end of month debut. Internal FUD? who knows...


----------



## reaper

I like how the text says, "provides image contrast more than five times better than conventional white screens". Then, on the same page, it says, "6 times better contrast than conventional white screen". Funny.


----------



## Kevin_Wadsworth

Well, 6 times is more than 5 times...


----------



## reaper

True... true


----------



## noah katz

The contrast improvement is a function of how much ambient light there is, so they make it almost whatever they want.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by noah katz_
*The contrast improvement is a function of how much ambient light there is, so they make it almost whatever they want.*
They could, but it is also possible that this is the upper bound. Just depends on how well they can reject the light between the wavelength bands. I would hope it would help more than this if the lights in the room are chosen carefully (or filtered).


--Darin


----------



## noah katz

Speaking of appropriate room lighting for the Blackscreen, are the RGB points on the CIE color triangle arbitrary? Could you rotate all the points 60 deg and still create what we perceive as a full color spectrum?


If so, then the room lighting could be made this way, with maximum rejection by the screen.


----------



## rogo

Quote:

_Originally posted by Erikb_
*Nice screen, but too small.


What's the latest over/under date for a 120" version?


Before October, 2005?


I can't think of any technical reason that they can't scale it up, although I can understand that they might want to work on the manufacturing details on the 80" version for a while first.*
Not before October 2005.


And given that it's rigid right now, I'm guessing, not anytime soon.


The Sony screen engineers hope to have a flexible / rollable version of the screen next year. Until and unless they abandon that, I don't think you'll see much bigger sizes of the first-gen product. They get hard to ship and hard to deliver etc. etc.


----------



## tetra-pro

Wasn't there a rumor floating around a few months ago about another screen company (Stewart, maybe?) that was going to produce a screen very similar in design and functionality to the Sony ChromaVue?


----------



## noah katz

Stewart and also dnp, the latter not til the end of the year.


----------



## QQQ

reaper,


Might want to put your E-mail somewhere in your profile or on your web page since you are advertising your rendering services .


----------



## Art Sonneborn

Quote:

_Originally posted by noah katz_
*Stewart and also dnp, the latter not til the end of the year.*
I have been paying little attention to this screen, since I wasn't really in the market for another screen and, I had seen that ,at least initially, it would be size limited but I guess I have a few questions anyway. Isn't there some of the rejected spectrum in the projected image and is the light that it rejects in the center of incandescent peaks ?


Art


----------



## tetra-pro

Quote:

_Originally posted by noah katz_
*Stewart and also dnp, the latter not til the end of the year.*
Any idea when the Stewart will be out?


----------



## noah katz

"Isn't there some of the rejected spectrum in the projected image and is the light that it rejects in the center of incandescent peaks ?"


Yes, which is why it's not pitch black.


I don't think incandescent is peaky, it's more of a big hump, which is hopefully more or less centered between R and G.


" Any idea when the Stewart will be out?"


Sorry, no, but I think someone mentioned a rumoured time period, might have been earlier in this thread.


----------



## Art Sonneborn

Is the screen optimized to absorb primarily incandescent light. Since it absorbs certain wavelengths what is lost out of the projected image ?Is this visible ?


Art


----------



## stanger89

Theoretically nothing, projectors emit (essentailly) only 3 wavelengthes (I realize it's not perfect Red, Green, and Blue, the combination of which appears as other colors to our eyes. Incandescent light OTOH, emits a range of wavelenghts, probably including the same ones the projector emits, but centered closer to white.


Now, projectors emit most/all of their energy at those three wavelengths, where incandescent light spreads it's energy over a wide spectrum of wavelenghts, the result is that at any particular wavelenght, there is very little energy.


Now the black screen (I presume) is designed to reflect only those wavelengths emited by the projector, so it will reflect a little light from a lightbulb, but it will be very dim (due to the little energy from the light at those frequencies) while the projector will be unafected (since all it's energy resides at those frequencies).


Well, at least that's how I imagine it works  Don't really know for sure, but that's how I'd do it.


----------



## noah katz

"Now, projectors emit most/all of their energy at those three wavelengths, "


This is not supported by the energy vs. freq plots I've seen of pj lamps. They're not nearly as smooth as incandescent (which BTW I think is centered around 2500 K), but they're even less like three spikes at R, G, and B.


----------



## stanger89

But their filtered through Red, Green, and Blue filters right? That's how they make RGB. The bulb itself may not be RGB, but that's what the projector outputs. Well, at least that's how I understand it, I could be way off base though.


----------



## TheFerret

Three wavelength maybe, but each with a very wide pulse-width to essentially take in several other wavelengths.


----------



## gkanders

wouldn't this screen have to work less well with 7 or 8 segment DLPs?


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by stanger89_
*Theoretically nothing, projectors emit (essentailly) only 3 wavelengthes (I realize it's not perfect*
The problem is that this is just too far from perfect. They definitely don't use just 3 wavelengths. These colors aren't individual wavelengths, they are bands of wavelengths along the spectrum. With UHP lamps the blue has a reasonably narrow band and so does the green, but the red is usually spread out like a hump across the whole red spectrum. Incandescent bulbs also are strong in this same red range, so under incadescent bulbs I would expect the images to move toward red. The reason being that they can only make the red band in the screen so narrow without killing the overall image brightness at D65 not counting ambient light. If they could find a bulb that had strong peaks for all 3 colors and was close enough to D65 it would work better with a technique like this.


I think the reason this screen won't work as well with Xenon bulbs is because they are nearly as peaky (or narrow band) in their color output as UHP bulbs.


I would expect this screen to work best with room lights that are tuned toward cyan (not much red) or have wavelengths between the blue, green, and red as much as possible.
Quote:

_Originally posted by gkanders_
*wouldn't this screen have to work less well with 7 or 8 segment DLPs?*
I don't see how those would have much impact. The dark segments are just for the darkest pixels. In fact, if the dark segments happen to be at wavelengths the screen will mostly reject that could be a bad thing.


--Darin


----------



## stanger89

Sorry, guys, I realize it's not three distinct wavelengths, that the energy has a distribution around those wavelenghts.


Anybody have a graph of what the spectral distribution of a Projector is? I imagine it would have 3 humps, at red, green and blue.


It would be interesting to see just how wide/narrow those humps are. Theoretically, if they're relatively narrow, and the screen worked as a bandpass filter for those, and with a relatively narrow bandwidth, it would make the screen pretty immune to broad spectrum light like that from incancescent bulbs, since only a small portion of the ambient light's energy would fall within those bands..


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by stanger89_
*Sorry, guys, I realize it's not three distinct wavelengths, that the energy has a distribution around those wavelenghts.


Anybody have a graph of what the spectral distribution of a Projector is? I imagine it would have 3 humps, at red, green and blue.*
I may be able to get one later. Two tall humps (or spikes) and one flatter hump with UHP lamp projectors, in my view.


If you just look at the spectrum charts on this page you will see how wide blue, green, and red can be on the actual spectrum. And with the SD or HD colorspace each primary can contain wavelengths that are towards another one of the colors because the CIE triangles don't call for pure primaries. For instance, having blue be 430nm to 460nm would probably make it pure enough. And from what I've seen red is usually spread out from around 600nm and up with a hump and not a spike with UHP projectors.


--Darin


----------



## stanger89

But those are the respones of the human eye, not the distributions of a projector (or any display's) light output.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by stanger89_
*But those are the respones of the human eye, not the distributions of a projector (or any display's) light output.*
As I said, I can probably get a distribution for an actual projector later. I only wanted you to look at these to see how wide a projector could put out for each and still be only doing blue, green, and red primaries. The point is that the bands can be very large. This is how they are with Xenon. With UHP the blue and green from the projectors are tall and most of the light is concentrated in a narrow band, but that doesn't mean they don't leave a wider band. And the red band is fairly wide and short. I'll put it another way, other than for use with this screen the projector manufacturers would not want to put out bands that are too narrow because it means lower light output (lower lumens spec). So, the band for the limiting color (basically red for UHP) should be as wide as they can get away with and still maintain the red primary compared to the standards.


--Darin


----------



## stanger89

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*I only wanted you to look at these to see how wide a projector could put out for each and still be only doing blue, green, and red primaries.*
Gotcha.


----------



## yegulalp

Actually, on page 3 of that Milori article, they show the spectrum from "a digital front projector containing a UHP ("Ultra High Pressure") lamp." I assume they measure the spectrum coming out of the projector lens, not the raw spectrum of the lamp. Too bad they don't have labels for the vertical axis. It could be log scale or linear.


----------



## stanger89

Interesting, just makes me that much more curious how (well) the Black Screen works.


----------



## snikrep

Is there any chance this thread (or if there's a better one on the blackscreen) could be stickied? It seems like something that a lot of people are interested in, and a common place could help answer people's questions right away (I'm a newcomer to this area, mainly interested in this screen).


Just a suggestion, sometimes the search hasn't worked very well for me on this site.


----------



## mark_1080p

Quote:

_Originally posted by stanger89_
*But their filtered through Red, Green, and Blue filters right? That's how they make RGB. The bulb itself may not be RGB, but that's what the projector outputs. Well, at least that's how I understand it, I could be way off base though.*
Right, reading this thread is a bit confusing. For a DLP projector, its the bandpasses of the R,G, and B segments of the color wheel that will determine how well the screen works, I would think. Sure, the bandpasses are wide and the continuum spectrum of the bulb will affect the relative strength of the R,G, and B throughput but I would suspect that PJ calibration could fix that. So why should the bulb make a major difference?


Perhaps PJ's with different bulb designs use color wheels with different bandpasses ... shifting the bandpasses relative to the screen reflection bands.


----------



## pieroxy

*mark_1080p*, I am as confused as you are.

*darinp2*, you keep on saying that whatever the PJ outputs is highly related to the lamp. But in my understanding of how a PJ works (both DPL and LCD), this is just plain wrong.


PJ has a lamp, and (for a 3 panel LCD) has three panels through which light can go. Each one of these panels is doubled with a filter, whose purpose is to let through only a specific wavelength (or rather a narrow band).


Hence, all wavelengths that go out of a given PJ should be these three narrow bands. The bulb is relevant only if it does not output the same intensity in one of these three narrow bands.


3 panel DLP is the same, 1 panel DLP also similar as the color wheel is basically composed of these same filters.


It's like fixing a red platic film on top of an incandescent light. Only wavelengths that this film allows through will be emitted, irregardless of the bulb.


What did I get wrong?


----------



## stanger89

What darinp2 is saying (I think) is this:


The bulb itself has a spectrum, it has peaks and valleys at different wavelenghts.


The filters aren't perfect, ie they filter a range of wavelengths not just a single wavelength.


Based on the response of the human eye, (linked above - Milori) those bands can be rather wide and still produce, what we see, as a given color.


Based on the response of the human eye, the filters are designed to allow the maximum amount of light through, thus they pass the widest range of wavelengths possible (we want bright PJs right ).


I think that's about right. I'd love to see a version of the projector graph for each color separately, it's hard to tell what each filter passes from the combined graph linked above.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by pieroxy_
*[*darinp2, you keep on saying that whatever the PJ outputs is highly related to the lamp. But in my understanding of how a PJ works (both DPL and LCD), this is just plain wrong.


PJ has a lamp, and (for a 3 panel LCD) has three panels through which light can go. Each one of these panels is doubled with a filter, whose purpose is to let through only a specific wavelength (or rather a narrow band).
Here is the part I disagree with. The job of the filters isn't to get the narrowest band. The job of the filters is to create primaries that come close to the standards while maximizing light through the system.
Quote:

_Originally posted by stanger89_
*The filters aren't perfect, ie they filter a range of wavelengths not just a single wavelength.*
They could make filters with narrower bands, but then you get into the less light going through the system problem (or less CR at the same light output). The problem isn't the filters, it is the bulbs. As I see it, a designer first starts with a bulb and then decides what filters to use. Unforunately, there are only so many choices with bulbs and tradeoffs between them. Filters are much easier to make do what you want.


EDIT: Just wanted to add that the job of the filters in an optimized-for-HT projector is to maximize the light throughput at D65. So, they may use narrower band filters for the 2 strongest colors, but still need to go as wide as is reasonable for the weakest color.


--Darin


----------



## mark_1080p

Now we're making sense.


It'll be interesting to see just what the gain of this screen is. If the RGB projector bands are too wide, the screen may absorb quite a bit and kill the gain. If the RGB projector bands are wide and the screen reflection bands are wide as well, you cannot get good attenuation of the ambient.


Relatively narrow bands at the PJ combined with narrow reflection bands at the screen, that's the key - but then we have sensitivity to wavelength shift.


Will we need a 2500 Lumen Sanyo to make it work?


----------



## tetra-pro

Quote:

_Originally posted by mark_1080p_
*Will we need a 2500 Lumen Sanyo to make it work?*
Why would you need that much light? The Sony screen (in its current incarnation) is approximately 20 sq ft. Assuming a gain of 1.5 (which is a little lower than their stated 1.7 peak gain), 670 lumens would get you to 50 ft-lamberts, which is in the neighborhood what a calibrated plasma provides.


----------



## mark_1080p

Agreed, if it comes close to 1.5 in the real world, at that size, its a winner. Is that gain number a gain in the traditional sense, though, or just the gain at peak screen reflectance ? It's hard to believe they can get that using the traditional definition.


----------



## rogo

Generally the light in a 3-chip projector is separated with dichroics and / or prisms. What is _not done at all_ is filtering. Filtering is a single-chip DLP only phenomenon.


The dichroics, for instance will pass green and reflect whatever light remains (or blue and red). I'm sure that some light gets "eaten" by the dichroic, but generally the whole idea is to pass as much of the light through as possible.


And the resultant light is absolutely a product of the spectrum of the original lamp.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by rogo_
*Generally the light in a 3-chip projector is separated with dichroics and / or prisms. What is not done at all is filtering. Filtering is a single-chip DLP only phenomenon.


The dichroics, for instance will pass green and reflect whatever light remains (or blue and red). I'm sure that some light gets "eaten" by the dichroic, but generally the whole idea is to pass as much of the light through as possible.*
Maybe we are just using different terms for filtering, but in a 3 chip/panel system somebody has to filter out the yellow if the lamp has too much of it unless you don't want to hit the primaries right. Same with cyan between blue and green. It might be that the first 2 splitters are not filtering, but I would say that once you hit the last color after splits the cyan and yellow have mostly been filtered out, they will be filtered out at that point, or the bulb didn't have enough to be a problem.


--Darin


----------



## noah katz

Mark is differentiating between an absorption filters that "throw away" light and color-splitting filters, but I believe the term is applicable no matter the mechanism used to discriminate.


----------



## lakeboy

Mark,


I believe that is just the gain at peak screen reflectance..


Tim


----------



## rogo

Darin, I think Noah characterizes what I meant pretty well and I think I also overstated the case a bit. You are almost certainly correct that there are cases -- depending on the lamp and the nature of the dichroics -- that some more light will need to be filtered out to get the right primary.


I was more stating that 3-chip designs are generally about _preserving_ light by splitting it into its parts. 1-chip designs absolutely _throw away_ tons of light because they need to filter it. Of course, the splitting costs some light in any number of ways so it's not as horrible a ratio as it might be.


Anyway, I agree that cyan and yellow have got to be taken care of to the extent they exist -- 3-chip or 1-chip. Whether the dichroics do it alone or get help from an additional filter is something I'm not sure of, but it doesn't much matter.


----------



## mark_1080p

Here's a site that shows some interesting schematics:

Schematics 


I would still think that the 3 chip LCD throws away lots of light to get the rgb bandpasses narrow enough that they really are primaries, so you've got to do some filtering while you are splitting.


Single chip DLP really throws away more since you only get 1 color 1/3 of the time. But I would not think that 3 chippers give more light because of any filtering differences.


There's no reason to think the primaries should be any wider in bandwidth in LCD vs. DLP, but I don't know, are they?


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by rogo_
*I was more stating that 3-chip designs are generally about preserving light by splitting it into its parts.*
Yep. That is a good point. It is amazing how much light can come out of the 3 chippers with basically the same bulb as a single chipper. Most of us think of the InFocus single chippers as light cannons, but not compared to what the 3 chippers can do.


TI had that sequential color recapture system (or some SCR acronym) so they would have less light loss from filtering, but that seems to have died (or at least not done well enough to release products at this point).


BTW: I noticed that the SonyStyle site says that they carry a 30 day money back guarantee and I don't see any exception for this screen. Not that I want anybody to buy one knowing they will return it, but if somebody thinks it might work and isn't sure, at least this gives them some reassurance. Please, somebody in Seattle buy one so we can test it.  I could provide the test equipment, like Colorfacts with a sensor that gives the spectrum breakdown off the screen. With that info we might be able to find bulbs for the room that will work well with it (if Sony doesn't give out that information).


--Darin


----------



## rogo

I'd push for this at my new place, but I doubt the SO would go for it....


----------



## mbaxter

Well, I called SonyStyle today and they confirmed they have the Chromavue in stock and ready to ship. Any brave souls want to order one? Perhaps I should have posted this in the rich people's forum. Guys who blow $10,000 for a projector shouldn't even flinch at risking $2000 on an unknown screen.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by mbaxter_
*Well, I called SonyStyle today and they confirmed they have the Chromavue in stock and ready to ship. Any brave souls want to order one? Perhaps I should have posted this in the rich people's forum. Guys who blow $10,000 for a projector shouldn't even flinch at risking $2000 on an unknown screen. *
Except that most who blow $10k on a projector don't want an 80" screen.  Make it at least 110" and I might take a chance.


--Darin


----------



## JimP

Looking forward to see how the "do it yourselfer gang" try to build one from the paint department at Lowe's. lol


----------



## MoG

Same here Darin. I spent way less than $10k on a HS51, but it was an easy decision when I chose between a 120" Silverstar and 80" Sony Chromavue.

Hopefully they'll come out with larger ones...


----------



## mbaxter

FYI Sony is currently offering free shipping on the Chromavue, with a 30-day money back guarantee.


----------



## Highjinx

I'm wondering if this NEW screen requires high light output projectors to be effective if made in larger sizes. Sony appears to be attempting to pair the 80" with the HS50/51. Thus considering the light output of the HS50/51......!


Could this mean consumers may have to wait till they release the new Bi-NA paneled projectors, where they can use brighter globes and still maintain good contrast levels, before we see larger screen sizes?. While on the Bi-NA, hope Sony bring out a variable light output light engine + DR.


----------



## mbaxter

This guy says he bought one:
http://www.vjcentral.com/hardware/view/id/12741


----------



## b.greenway

Hey mbaxter, I'm looking at the site and I donâ€™t see where he says that.


----------



## akm3

Is it just POSSIBLE that this screen is complete hype, and that Sony saw a market for "Firehawk" like screens, made up new science mumbo-jumbo marketing speak to explain why the screen appears dark, and is now making it sound like the holy grail?


Sony has been known to do these things. And they are CERTAINLY known for "overly optimistic specs"


-Allen


----------



## Highjinx

Would the screen image be affected by light coming off the screen, reflecting off the walls/ceiling/floors and reflecting back to the screen?


----------



## melechmet

Quote:

_Originally posted by akm3_
*Is it just POSSIBLE that this screen is complete hype, and that Sony saw a market for "Firehawk" like screens, made up new science mumbo-jumbo marketing speak to explain why the screen appears dark, and is now making it sound like the holy grail?


Sony has been known to do these things. And they are CERTAINLY known for "overly optimistic specs"


-Allen*
No, if you've seen the screen in action it would not be possible to assert such things, unless you believe in magic or FUDing Sony  .


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by JimP_
*Looking forward to see how the "do it yourselfer gang" try to build one from the paint department at Lowe's. lol*
JimP,


Look no longer.



It's already "In The Can".


..........and in at least 3-4 variations. Came out long before SONY's "BS"* announcement too. Silver Star's as well. Johnny Come latelys, all of 'em.


*("BS" = Black Screen )


Butcha havta visit DIY Screens to get indoctrinated.


Now I'm not trying to persuade anybody, or convert all ya'all ta DIY'ers.


But don't even think that exemplary results far beyond the norm cannot, and are not being realized by your erstwhile Bretheren over in DIY Screens.


For a few bucks less than 2K fer sure.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by MississippiMan_
*JimP,


Look no longer.



It's already "In The Can".


..........and in at least 3-4 variations. Came out long before SONY's "BS"* announcement too. Silver Star's as well. Johnny Come latelys, all of 'em.


*("BS" = Black Screen )*
This shot

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ientPuffer.jpg 


looks pretty bad and this one

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...bientlight.jpg 


looks horrible compared to what an ambient light rejecting screen like the Sony BlackScreen can do. Was your goal to show us that it can't do what the Sony screen can?


EDIT: I had a feeling that MississippiMan might go change the image I referenced after the fact, and this is what he has done. So, this second image is no longer the one I addressed.


EDIT2: The 2nd picture is back to the original I addressed. Thanks MM.


--Darin


----------



## emailists

I went to the SOny store in manhattan today to see if they are getting the black screen. Half the employees didn't even know what I was talking about, or if they did, they said it wasn't shipping.


Anyway RCS computers across the street may get it soon. I thinks it like Madison and 55th- I'll post when I find anything else out- They also have the HS51 on display, and quite a few DLP's so it should be a good test if they get one. I would not otherwise suggest anyone demo any pj there though- it's a brightly lit store washing out all the screens.


----------



## noah katz

MissMan,


I wish you'd consider that some people are still using dialup connections and dumping all those pic's into a post bogs everything down. I got tired of it and hit the Stop button.


----------



## pieroxy

Quote:

_Originally posted by Highjinx_
*Would the screen image be affected by light coming off the screen, reflecting off the walls/ceiling/floors and reflecting back to the screen?*
How could the image not be affected by light? Everything is affected by light: Your eyes, the image, the walls, everything.


By how much is what we are all waiting for. Please, someone, buy this screen and let us know how well it performs compared to, say, an rptv.


Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaase!


----------



## Highjinx

Quote:

How could the image not be affected by light? Everything is affected by light: Your eyes, the image, the walls, everything.
Ok! What I meant to say does the screens reflected light affect it more that ambient natural light of the same intensity.


So my thoughts are, with this screen is it advantageous to still have dark surfaces in the room or is it not a necessity as it would with a "Normal" screen.


I suppose Sony have already answered this question as they don't claim an advantage in a dark room.


----------



## pieroxy

Gotcha. Since the screen is supposed to reflect only three wavelength (actually, three bands), I suppose that the light reflected from the screen will be from these three bands, and thus, any reflection from walls of these would still remain in the same wavelengths...


So I guess it is not an advantage of this screen.


----------



## MississippiMan

DarinP,


I posted those ambient light photos merely to illustrate how a few simple DIY examples have come close to doing what most have considered impossible.


The first is in light so much more brighter than anybody on AVS has ever posted a screenie in before, and that image is far better than you give it credit for. Fer Gudness sake, there are even BRIGHT side lights washing across the screen, and the PJ is only outputing approx 700 lumens!


Please, show me a single solitary photo of any MFG screen application poste here on AVS that can compare. At that level of Light. Good Luck.

(But do so on DIY screens, of course.)


As for the second, it was just a rough example, done with a simple sheet of Paper over a Mirror, but gee, it was done in high lighting condidtions too. But keep in mind, it was offered up as a tease, not a deffinative statement. The others Photos are more indicative of quality.


Anyway, I removed them as I said I would.


Geesh I read this thread, and the most "illuminating" info I gleaned was that everybody kinda thinks the Sony might be Hype, (...I feel Sony's pain...) and that not a single person has ever decided to but one now that it's available, due to cost & size restrictions.


----------



## pieroxy

MississippiMan, I fear I'm not understanding it all... Did you test the "Sony BS"? Is that the screenshots you were posting? Or is that a cheap DIY conterpart?


In any case, how would you rate these in ambient light compared to a RPTV?


Edit: Ratings in term of viewing cone, luminosity and color saturation...


Edit2: Whille you're at it, just point us to a few DIY threads that talk about that. 


Thanks a bunch!


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by pieroxy_
*MississippiMan, I fear I'm not understanding it all... Did you test the "Sony BS"? Is that the screenshots you were posting? Or is that a cheap DIY conterpart?


In any case, how would you rate these in ambient light compared to a RPTV?


Edit: Ratings in term of viewing cone, luminosity and color saturation...*
Both were DIY'ers


One was just a whimsical study.


I haven't seen a Sony BS (....gotta luv that name.....) but the spin has been enormous. But actually, getting great results from a 84" screen and a bright PJ should'nt require a $2000.00 investment. At that size, there are contrast enhancing formulas that when hit with either 1600 + Lumen LCDs & DLPs or 500 lumen CRTs, that both can deliver stunning Black levels and a great deal of ambient light rejection.


Now, as for any Screen app outdoing a RPTV lumen for Lumen on a screen area under 80", that's gonna be damn near impossible in high ambient light. But in low light to near darkness, with the right combinations, I reqularly take the size out to 140" diagonal, and the resulting comments are, "It looks better than a Plasma!".


I've yet to hear any comment about the Sony or any screen app that expressed that veiw, at any size.


But fyi, there is NO viewing cone on any of my DIY creations (180 degree viewing, ear to the screen wall.) and color saturation is as good as it gets, especially so since the sizes are effectively doubled over any RPTV.


That's enough. I suggest you visit DIY screens to whet your appetite. I've overstayed my welcome here, I'm sure.




Noah,

Dial-up ? How quaint.


----------



## pieroxy

Thanks again MississippiMan, but I still have a couple of questions  so you're still welcome for a few more posts 


1. Can you point me to some threads in the DIY section, I couldn't find any one related to "high ambient light screens". But I probably don't have the right terminology, not being a native english speaker...

2. IIRC, gain>0 implies a viewing cone... Are your screens at gain=1 ?


Thanks again!


nb to the others: Sorry for the digression, I hope this'll be the last post "off topic"


----------



## wintr

Isn't anyone gonna order the Sony screen? There was all this hype, and now it's out, and I haven't heard about anyone putting in an order... ?


- paul


----------



## MississippiMan

I'll check it out and I'll PM you the info, to avoid any issues.


Better still (jammed PM box) email [email protected] 


Keep on me if I dawdle.


wintr,

Someone will eventually bite. They always do. But it's problematical as to if they'll post up an opinion. It took MONTHS after the SilverStar hit the Dealers before any actual evaluation from any AVS'er was posted.


Funny thing though. There certainly were plenty from the Dealers though.


But this SONY screen is more exciting to many, due to the "Lights On" aspect, so the lead in hype is being fueled by those who sincerly want, even need for it to be a viable option.


Let's hope it's not a real dissapointment. At 2K, the real hurt will be that so many who want-need one will have to pass.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by MississippiMan_
*But fyi, there is NO viewing cone on any of my DIY creations (180 degree viewing, ear to the screen wall.) and color saturation is as good as it gets, especially so since the sizes are effectively doubled over any RPTV.
*
Sorry, but I'm not impressed with that ambient light handling. I would bet a lot of money that even a $300 Da-Lite High Power would do better in the conditions for that first photo. I'm not going to waste my time trying to setup your exact conditions because I am already confident of the response I would get. A 180 degree viewing angle without special things like Sony's patented technology discussed here is not the way to get the best ambient light rejection. And that screen that you made that I drove to Canada to see had a much smaller viewing cone than 180 (and lots of hotspotting according to the owner) before you put another coat on and then it didn't have nearly the gain you often claim.


BTW: I've edited my previous post to reflect the fact that you went and changed the image after the fact. Sneaky, but not surprising.
Quote:

_Originally posted by wintr_
*Isn't anyone gonna order the Sony screen? There was all this hype, and now it's out, and I haven't heard about anyone putting in an order... ?
*
I think more of us would order if it was a size that we consider reasonable. I hope that Sony doesn't take a lack of orders from here as an indication of a lack of interest in the technology.


--Darin


----------



## MississippiMan

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*


BTW: I've edited my previous post to reflect the fact that you went and changed the image after the fact. Sneaky, but not surprising.


--Darin*
Darin,


I don't sneak, and I don't know what your reffering to. If I did change up a posted photo, it had nothing to do with any comment you made.


Keep your "sneekies" to yourself. I did not post here to solicit insults.


And FYI, lest you think that any real effort was being made, the last 2 photos you saw were from a X1 in 16:9 mode, shooting a 8' wide image.

One with 1300 hours on the Bulb no less.


Not your basic $3500.00+ PJ by any means. And some paper on top of a mirror certainly doesn't qualify as a extreme effort at DIY, now does it?


----------



## emailists

Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*I hope that Sony doesn't take a lack of orders from here as an indication of a lack of interest in the technology.


--Darin*
I actually hope they do.... and drop the price a bit and actually display it at their stores.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by emailists_
*I actually hope they do.... and drop the price a bit and actually display it at their stores.*
I think your "and" is required because if Sony thought the interest was low enough in this technology there is a reasonable chance they would just drop the whole thing. They didn't seem very committed to even making these things when I saw it as SID a year ago. They told me it was a demonstration to gage interest with no commitment to actually making them, but I think they found enough interest at the shows to move forward. But real sales figures tend to matter even more.


I think two reasons they started small are difficulty in making bigger sizes (one screen at a show was put together from 4 pieces) and the difficulty of shipping large sizes with solid screens (as Vutec knows).


--Darin


----------



## rogo

Right, the size issue is that shipping larger screens becomes very challenging logistics-wise.


The plan is still -- from what I've been told -- to attempt to make a roll-up variant of this that would allow for larger sizes. I think even moderate sales of the existing one will lead to that. And given the screen is currently not really even being marketed, I don't think tepid sales would yet be an issue.


----------



## Highjinx

Would someone now please develop a paint that will absorb the RGB light reflected from this screen. Hmmm!


----------



## stanger89

There already is one, it's called black


----------



## Highjinx

Was thinking of something other than BlacK!.........!


To the folks who have already seen this screen.......What do the 2:35 black bars look like on this screen?.


----------



## Erikb

Quote:

_Originally posted by Highjinx_
*Would someone now please develop a paint that will absorb the RGB light reflected from this screen. Hmmm!*
That's a great idea! Sony's screen is ideal for living rooms or family rooms where people don't want black walls, ceilings and floors. In theory, the same kind of Chromavue technology could be used to reflect all light EXCEPT the R G B light that the screen reflects. I would guess the walls would look grayish white, but could also be mixed to have other colors and tints pretty easily.


Take it a step further and create lamp shades, light filters, and window shades with the same technology and now there's even less need for a darkened room.


And as long as we're making a wish list, maybe they could bundle it with sound-absorbing material and viola -- home theater quality without a dedicated room.


----------



## Highjinx

Erikb..................sounds darn good to me!


----------



## reaper

For anyone in the Indianapolis area, the new Frys is now open and has the Sony ChromaVue screen on display. I saw it Saturday night (again). 


reaper


----------



## pieroxy

You saw it again... so what were your impressions this time? Does it live up to the hype? Was the demo in a highly lit environment? How did it perform? Viewing angle, colors, etc...


But most of all, would you consider it for your living room as a replacement for a TV? (my problematic exactly )


----------



## mbaxter

If the interest level on AVSForum is any guide, the Chromavue is dead before it ever got off the ground. What a shame, it had such potential. What's maddening is if they'd just made these things a little bigger, they'd have sold like crazy, even at $2500+ pricing.


I hope the suits at Sony learn the right lessons from this.


----------



## stanger89

Quote:

_Originally posted by mbaxter_
*If the interest level on AVSForum is any guide*
I'm not sure it's a valid gauge. AVS is not made up of average users, we're the kind of people who would build a light controlled room just to get that extra 16" (from 80 -> 96" say).


Where as the ChromaView will go after the more average customer. I think it's possitioned more like this:


Average customer comes in looking at RPTVs, thinks I want a big screen, but can't/won't dedicate a room. They look at say the 70" Qualia RPTV. The salesman can go, you know for a similar price (not sure what the Qualia RPTV costs) you can get the HS51+ChromaView and have an 80" screen that you can use in a normal room. And you won't have the big box.


----------



## yegulalp

Well, the size is not a problem for me. My currrent screen is 84" diagonal, almost the same as the Sony. I'm just not interested in blowing $2000 for a new screen after buying a Carada less than a year ago, especially when I don't have any clue how I'll like it.


----------



## Minke

Personally, I'm chomping at the bit to get one of these EXCEPT for 2 things:


1) I haven't seen it yet (or at least heard detailed firsthand experience from forum dwellers).


2) It really is too small at this point.


Mind you it's a bit pricey, but I'd bite the bullet if it can be used in a room with a reasonable amount of ambient light.


So basically it just comes down to "does it work" and "make it bigger". Since people have said that Sony is working on a larger one, I'll wait. And there is compelling evidence that DNP and Stewart will be joining the fray someday. So although I'm eager, I'll wait. I'm living with a $70 DIY screen solely because one day I fully intend to watch my projector in a room where I don't trip on anything.


----------



## PExeter

What sizes do they have? Only 84"? Arent they coming out this month also?


----------



## Minke

Currently, the only option available is 80".

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...ductSKU=HCSW80


----------



## DirtHerder

Has anyone seen this screen setup for viewing in the Los Angeles / So Cal area?


I'm extremely eager to see it in action (in person).


----------



## PExeter

That sucks, if it was 100", I'd be all over it.


----------



## Ja Phule

I think the people buying this would be the same ones who'd pay $4k for a 800x600 DLP Runco.


----------



## 90c4

I'm not sure why everyone is dissing the screen. In my current setup, 80 inches might work well, and this screen plus a Sony HS51 is still about $3000 less than I paid for my last projector and screen (Sony 10HT and Da-Lite). Make fun of early adopters all you like - they're used to it.


----------



## DirtHerder

Especially since no one seems to have actually seen one in action yet.


What's up with that?

Quote:

_Originally posted by 90c4_
*I'm not sure why everyone is dissing the screen. In my current setup, 80 inches might work well, and this screen plus a Sony HS51 is still about $3000 less than I paid for my last projector and screen (Sony 10HT and Da-Lite). Make fun of early adopters all you like - they're used to it.*


----------



## CINERAMAX

Quote:

_Originally posted by Minke_
*Currently, the only option available is 80".

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...ductSKU=HCSW80 *


I can definetily tell you that the SONY will NOT be the best offering for this type of screen. A much better one, and bigger is slated of Infocom.


----------



## ahammons

Is this screen shipping yet? Has anyone seen it in any stores? I am in Northern Virginia.


----------



## rogo

"I can definetily tell you that the SONY will NOT be the best offering for this type of screen. A much better one, and bigger is slated of Infocom."


I think the point is I believe that to some extent. There are two others working on this concept. And maybe one will over a rollup version. If so, I'd be much more tempted by that. A fixed screen will not play here.


----------



## CINERAMAX

I disagree about the fixed screen. If ultimate image quality is the issue, and for example the fixed screen version actually rejected sunlight, it may play.


The comment that was made to me by one of these companies regarding what is possible by the other one, the one that will roll up is that they do not have a fraction of the R&D of the fixed panel company I am inferring to.


----------



## LCDFan

A fixed screen would be just fine. So far, doesn't seem like many people have any personal experience with this screen. I would love to see it in person, and if it works as well as some CES reviewers say it does, I would be sold on it. Not everyone needs a rollup screen. Though if there are a couple of other companies that have the same technology coming out soon, I would be most interested in knowing (and possibly waiting) for those! Any ideas on how long the wait is for thier product?


----------



## noah katz

A few monthsw ago I was told via email w/a dnp guy that theirs would be out by the end of the year.


----------



## tetra-pro

dnp?


----------



## pieroxy

Could someone just name these companies ? Seems simple...


Of course, the more details the better...


----------



## noah katz

"dnp?"


Yes.


"Could someone just name these companies ?"


dnp and Stewart.


----------



## CINERAMAX

You are jeopardizing a xillion of future information by saying that name, now in this thread. A shame.


----------



## melechmet

Quote:

_Originally posted by CINERAMAX_
*You are jeopardizing a xillion of future information by saying that name, now in this thread. A shame.*
FYI,


Both have been mentioned in this thread (amongst other threads) already . Less we forget: the whole industry works on precisely this sort of prerelease hype (even the cat-mouse game companies like Apple tend to play). It's not such a big deal anyway; I don't think anyone here under nda has disclosed any new/serious details whatsoever. 2c.


----------



## CINERAMAX

Speak for yourself I have been personally warned.


----------



## noah katz

"You are jeopardizing a xillion of future information by saying that name, now in this thread. A shame."


Sorry Peter, I'm only repeating what I've read here on the forum.


----------



## rogo

I want a rollup version. Those of you who don't -- fine. But telling me that a fixed version will do doesn't really interest me. It won't do for me.


And as for naming the mfrs., I've read those two names here already. Noah didn't spill any beans that weren't long ago spilled.


----------



## Chandu

Quote:

_Originally posted by asdqwe2k2_
*

Sony engineers worked from the basic principle that projectors, like all TVs and monitors, form colors by blending three primary hues: red, green and blue. They came up with a filter that allows the screen to reflect only red, green and blue light. The other light in a room, such as white incandescent or fluorescent bulbs, isn't reflected.


In a bright room, the image on the screen is brighter and shows greater contrast than it would on a white screen. There is no difference in a dark room.
*
I wonder how this screen would show up in ambient sunlight ?


----------



## LCDFan

Its fine if some people dont want a fixed screen. But there are quite a few who dont mind having a fixed screen. So why not let those of us who want it have it? Thats great if it doesnt work for you, but for many it will. Dont like it? Dont buy it! I personnaly would like to see versions of both, fixed and roll up. Given time, it will happen.


Now what we really need is a user who has bought one of these screens or has spent plenty of quality time looking at one to give us a review!


----------



## Lefty4

I have called all the Sony Stores in both California and Nevada but none of them have the screen on display (nor in stock either). So unless someone has purchased one, finding a review is going to be difficult.


----------



## noah katz

Did you try Fry's? Reaper said he saw one there.


----------



## Genius74

I just saw one at Fry's (Downer's Grove, IL) and I have to say I was quite impressed.. The projector that they were using ( I cant recall) didn't have the best contrast ratio (100:1 I believe) but the screen was awesome especially with all the lights on! It looked like an 80" 1/2" thick Plasma.. very sweet. For $2k?? I wouldn't buy it.. I'll stick with my 32" LCD for daytime viewing and the 92" Matte White at night...


----------



## LCDFan

Well, I am sooo glad that someone has finally been able to see this in person!


So Genius74, Were there lights directly on the screen? Ive been to a local Frys and they have thier TV's in a darker environment. I would love to hear more specifics. And if you ever get back to the Frys, maybe even some pictures?


It is pricey at 2 grand, but considering how much large screen TV's go for, this could be a much cheaper option, especially if it works well in a high ambient light situation, for many people. Ill have to check out my local Fry's and see if they have one up too.


----------



## Genius74

Sorry I was so brief b4... the screen was in a dark room, but I immediately said " hey isnt that the Sony Black Screen? Turn on the lights!!!" It went from a dark room to a very, very well lit office-like environment.. you know.. flourescents.. The picture was very detailed. They werent showing the best movie (Michael Jordan: IMAX) but it was very nice. I only have a camera phone, so a picture from that thing will do this screen no justice!


Of course I dont know how it would fair against real sunlight though.. the $2k was for the 80incher. After hearing the price I didn't bother asking if it came in a bigger size.


----------



## LCDFan

Hey Genius74,


Well, Im very glad to hear the screen did so well in a well lit environment. For me personally, Im not too worried about the sunlight, since if I was to purchase it the sunlight would be very indirect. What does concern me is lights on, I dont want to always have to turn them down or off just to watch TV. Yes, it is very expensive for a 80" screen, but if you look at the price of a 70' rear projection system, this screen and a good projector can beat the price by almost half.


I totally understand about the camera phone. Im still with the opinion that even good cameras bias the picture taken of a screen, no matter what is being photgraphed. I guess what I was looking for was how bright the room was, but now you have answered that question. I am now getting excited about this screen. In time larger sizes will come out, and the price will come down. I just need to see if my local Fry's has it. I was planning on going to Frys this weekend anyways, so Ill be crossing my fingers!


----------



## fuxf

here some Chinese research institute has some similar product showed on CEDIA exibition in ShangHai/China. if that is put into mass production.....you know Chinese is good at cost control.

Maybe in near future everyone can get one piece of it in our living rooms...

check my gallary for a screen shot........


----------



## MississippiMan

    


Ahhhhhh, Sooooooo!





..........just as long as somebody gets it right!


----------



## dc_pilgrim

Quote:

_Originally posted by Genius74_
*the screen was in a dark room, but I immediately said " hey isnt that the Sony Black Screen? Turn on the lights!!!" It went from a dark room to a very, very well lit office-like environment.. you know.. flourescents..*
How did it look in the dark room? I have read this thread and am intriuged by the ambient light abilities, but wonder if you give things up in for a dark room presentation.


Since I am also interested in the lit room performance, did you see each long enough to compare & contrast?


----------



## noah katz

fuxf,


":This category does not contain any images."


When I go to your gallery it says


"This category does not contain any images."


Thanks


----------



## darinp2

I don't know if the Fry's in Renton, WA has one of these up, but if somebody verified that they did I would try to stop by there this weekend. I'll be driving by that store, but will be with some people, so probably won't stop unless I figure out that it is actually there and I plan it ahead of time. I could try calling them, but I doubt they would even know what I was asking about.


--Darin


----------



## LCDFan

I'll be checking the Fry's in San Jose and Fremont (SF Bay Area). I too feel if I called and asked if they had the screen in stock that they may not know what I was talking about. I haven't had good experiences with Fry's salespersons.


I am curious too about what it would look like in the dark. Would seem a bit wierd that it would be good in daylight and suck in the dark! Hopefully a few of us will find these in our local Fry's and get to see what they are like in person, and put to rest many of the questions we have!


----------



## fuxf

Quote:

_Originally posted by noah katz_
*fuxf,


":This category does not contain any images."


When I go to your gallery it says


"This category does not contain any images."


Thanks*
Sorry for my mistake, I use gallery for the first time.

Now the pic was uploaded into my gallery properly.


----------



## LCDFan

fuxf,


Just saw your picture. Wow! Very impressive! Man, if the Chinese can produce this soon, they can definetly drive the prices of these screens down. Do you know any other info, like the size they can produce? Or planned production date?


----------



## Lefty4

Sorry to disappoint everyone but I called all the SoCal Fry's today and none of them have the screen. The salesperson looked in the computer and confirmed the only two stores in the country that have the chromavue screen in stock are Downers Grove (IL) and Webster (TX).


----------



## pieroxy

Sorry to burst your bubble here Lefty4, but Fry's salesperson are among the most incapable persons I have ever seen, and not only technically speaking. If they say it is only available in two stores, I would be highly optimistic


----------



## c722

Quote:

_Originally posted by fuxf_
*Sorry for my mistake, I use gallery for the first time.

Now the pic was uploaded into my gallery properly.*
sorry why not showing it directly so everyone knows what we are talking abt 


I found this from a chinese forum. it was saying they were quoting RMB 18k per square meter. (Actually one poster also said the person in the photo told him the price "shouldn't be an issue". ) Looks like they want to be the OEM for someone.


[EDIT] the picture is too big; I just show the link here:
http://www.jd-bbs.com/attachment/Fid_77/77_276197.jpg 


for those who can read chinese, this is the chinese forum talking abt it:
http://www.jd-bbs.com/read.php?tid=5...toread=&page=1


----------



## JimP

fufx


Very impressive demonstration.


I find it interesting that the subject matter displayed on the screen contained only blues and greens, primary colors. Perhaps it was merely a coincidence that it didn't contain any other colors, but it does cause me some interest in that if the screen rejects all colors other than red, blue, green, certainly you're not ONLY going to see red, blue and green.


Did you see content that include flesh tones,etc., to see how the screen handles colors other than the primaries?? If so, how did it look?


----------



## stanger89

FWIW,


I stopped by a local HT shop (Coralville, IA, you can find it if you're interested) that had just got their screen in. Now I'll preface my comments by saying they didn't have it mounted (were waiting on a PJ mount extension so the screen could be lower). Also it was in mid afternoon on a sunny day, not light controlled, and southwest facing windows with horizontal blinds. I'm also far from an expert with FP/Screens/etc. The were lighting it with an HS51.


In that situation, the screen looks a lot like your average RPTV screen, dark gray and clear-ish (I'm guessing you know what I mean).


JimP, to answer your question about colors, it does them just fine, skin-tones, primaries, even more odd colors like light purple (they were showing The Replacements FWIW).


I've been hesitant to make too many comments on this because of my limited time with it, limited experience with FP, and the poor setup (screen leaned against the wall. But here's what I thought.


First I was not terribly impressed. On bright scenes it was better than the beige wall (like I said, it was far from optimal), colors were better (duh!) and it was brighter. Had a pretty good picture.


On dark scenes, it was not so good, I could hardly make out a lot of stuff, it wasn't that much better than the wall. However now that I think about it, I'm guessing a good chunk of that is due to the HS51's auto iris reducing the output to almost nill.


I also think I noticed some hot-spotting, but it's hard to tell how much is the screen and how much is the really sub optimal setup.


FWIW, the HS51 was about 10ft off the floor, such that with the PJ level the screen would have to be about 5ft off the floor (they need a mount extention), so the PJ was aimed down.


Like I said, really bad, but I kind of dropped in on them before they had it set up.


I am still curious how it deals with normal room lighting, and when pro


----------



## Genius74

Reply to : darinp2



It look great in a dark room... (IMO) te blacks were black and the whites were white.. but again, this is NOT a magical screen... I believe if you projector is sub-par then this screen wont make it look better.

Also one thing I noticed (maybe I was dreaming) was that the screen, when the lights were turned on after it was dark in the room.. the picture went away for about 2-3 sec (maybe shorter) as if had to adjust to the light in the room, and then it appeared..


----------



## noah katz

Thanks, fufx, looks good.


"In that situation, the screen looks a lot like your average RPTV screen, dark gray and clear-ish"


This is a good indicator to me. It sounds like in the conditions you described even an RPTV wouldn't have looked very good.


But these screens should be worlds better than a standard FP screen in ambient light.


----------



## Ben Harper

It's available for sale from both Sony's and B&H websites.


----------



## Samurai Jack

Arrrgh!! Make it! Sell it!


Man, it feels like we've been following this tech forEVER. I can't wait for the stuff to actually be available.


And no, Sony's one no-on-has-it 80" $2000 screen doesn't count. C'mon OEM business! Get this stuff to market and start competing! I really think it's the FP killer app. I'm dying to see it come to full realization.


----------



## DirtHerder

Heh heh and while they're at it, a bulb that lasts more than 10k hours would be nice too. Those are the two things that have kept me from pulling the trigger.


Ambient light performance, and bulb life.


But I guess that's a topic for a different thread.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Samurai Jack_
*C'mon OEM business! Get this stuff to market and start competing! I really think it's the FP killer app. I'm dying to see it come to full realization.*


----------



## Thomas F

Quote:

the only two stores in the country that have the chromavue screen in stock are Downers Grove (IL) and Webster (TX).
Great! I live about two miles from the Webster store. I'm going to have to take a look.


----------



## pieroxy

Quote:

_Originally posted by Thomas F_
*Great! I live about two miles from the Webster store. I'm going to have to take a look.*
Yup. You bet you have to! 


While you're there, please look for viewing angle (how wide/narrow?) and possible hotspotting. Thanks a bunch !!!!


----------



## Lefty4

Thomas, you might want to call first. I was told it was in stock, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily displayed. Now purchasing it and trying it at home would make you a hero on this board!


----------



## Ahhhhrrrrgggg

My friend directed me here to read up before I set up the dreamy mini-theater set up I had stuck in my head. Oh how sweet it would be to cover the huge blank wall I have behind my hulking 36" TV with a mounted projection screen. So after much research and deliberation I picked out my very first system, the Sony Chromavue 80" and the Panasonic PT-AE700U. I have never had any other projector or screen before but I did have a great TV in my 36" Sony Trinitron. My dream was to obtain this "Black Screen and be able to avoid all sorts of glare issues etc. So as a beginner in this arena here are my findings after the first month.


The screen itself looks amazing mounted on my wall. It is impressive right off the bat when someone enters the room. I mounted it a foot away from the ceiling which makes it around 4ft off the ground. My original set up had the projector about 11ft away and about 3ft off the ground so the picture was aimed upward at the screen. The first day I had the screen I was pissed. I have huge windows in my livingroom which overpowered the projector way more than I expected. I called my friend all disapointed and ready to return the Panasonic to get the Sony. He calmed my down and stepped me through some projector tweaks. Soon I had another friend bring over his Sony HS-blah blah blah and we tested the 2 projectors with the Incredibles. These tests happened in the middle of a sunny day. Both projectors were still far crappier against sunlight then I had hoped but I had regained hope that the Panasonic would fair just as well as the Sony.


Now I have the Projector on a shelf level with the screen so the picture is pointing on a downward angle. Later tests showed that the screen was superb at night with all the lights on in the apartment. When I first set up the projector I was sad to see that Halo 2 was way better on my 36" Trinitron. I have now fixed all those problems by upgrading my xbox with component cables and setting it to play as 480p. So I play xbox all day on the weekends now with ease. Sure the picture isn't as awesome during the day as it is at night but I am quite pleased. The picture durring the night hours is incredible.


So for those of you who skim posts here is the skinny:

Panny + Chromavue + Sun = viewable

P+C+Clouds = Good Picture

P+C+Total Darkness = Amazing Picture

P+C+Flourescent Light = Amazing Picture with the lights on.


Maybe this will answer some questions. I have to get my friend over to take some pictures to give more detail to you guys. Enjoy


----------



## DirtHerder

For the review.


I look forward to your pictures (especially the day time and fluorescent lighting shots).


I've got a lot of sunlight coming into my living room but I'm guessing there is only so much the Chromavue can do. Heh heh even my normal television isn't all that great when bathed in sunlight (glare city... try playing Doom 3 with that ^_~).


Thanks again.


----------



## Scrimpin

I'm interested to know how well the screen does to mask the black bars when watching a 2.35 aspect ratio etc. movie. Does it come close to eliminating the need for separate masking?


----------



## Ahhhhrrrrgggg

Based on my limited knowledge of having to mask the black bars I can't give you a perfect answer. After getting the whole idea of masking explained to me I would say that the screen handles it great. I am used to having letterbox bars on the top and bottom of my old screen but even so the bars that appear on this screen seem to fade into it so well that it seems that there isn't light shining there at all. I can't at all imagine having to mask it.


----------



## dc_pilgrim

Ahhhhrrrrgggg -


Thanks for the review! I noticed you reposition the pj from "about 3ft off the ground" to "on a shelf level with the screen ". How did this change the image? I am new to this stuff, so apologize if this a basic question.


Another question is viewing angles - does the picture get darker if the viewer is off angle either horizontally or vertically?


That is a tremendous first post!


----------



## Ahhhhrrrrgggg

Quote:

_Originally posted by dc_pilgrim_
*I noticed you reposition the pj from "about 3ft off the ground" to "on a shelf level with the screen ". How did this change the image? I am new to this stuff, so apologize if this a basic question.


Another question is viewing angles - does the picture get darker if the viewer is off angle either horizontally or vertically?*
That is a really good question and a point I meant to make. When it was originally positioned down low the image seemed to be brighter at the bottom and more washed out/grayer at the top. That problem was compounded with sitting on the couch. Once I put the projector on the shelf that problem was completely fixed. The picture is consistent on the whole screen.


As far as viewing angle is concerned it has no negative effect. It looks just as good looking at it from the kitchen as it does directly in the middle of the couch. Wow I want to go home and play Halo right now. Too much talking about it...


----------



## Ahhhhrrrrgggg

A big problem with projecting the video from a downward angle was that it was reflecting off the screen and up at the white ceiling. That seemed to be creating interference at the top of the screen.


----------



## Epicurus

Did you have your projector before you got the screen? If so, did you project it on a wall or something similar? After you received the screen did it make the picture much brighter? I am simply wondering about the advertised 1.7 gain Sony claims, and if it is 1.7x brighter than without the screen.


----------



## Ahhhhrrrrgggg

I did project it on the white wall. I would have to say that it is reffering to the brightness with the lights on. In those situations it is quite apparent. The blacks are way better with the screen. There were points at night and durring the day when projecting the picture on the wall was way brighter but the colors and everything are not as good by any means.


----------



## palarsen

Sony has added a couple of sentences about the screen on their webshop lately:
_Sufficient expertise is required for installing this product. Installation should be performed by a licensed contractor only._

According to the product pdf installation looks very simple. Does anybody have an idea why they would add something like this? Could it be related to the problems Ahhhhrrrrgggg referred to related to projector placement?


----------



## Ahhhhrrrrgggg

Professional my ass. I know how to use a screw driver... I measured out where I wanted it on the wall and had my roommate hold it in place while I used my skilled hands to imbed 4 whole screws into drywall. The screen is really light. Obviously you should be careful not to scratch the screen. Other than that it was cake!


----------



## palarsen

That's what I suspected. Maybe the are afraid to get sued if somebody hurts themselves on the screwdriver....


----------



## Samurai Jack

Ahhhhrrrrgggg!


I want that screen!!


Ahhhhrrrrgggg!!!!!!!!!!!!





P.S. PM me your gamertag and I'll Halo2-it-up with you and you can brag about your screen.


P.P.S. A $2000 Sony Chromaview for your first screen? And here I am pretending my 100" Parkland Plastic DIY is the ritz. You...you...Ahhhhrrrrgggg! (That screenname really says it all, doesn't it?)


----------



## Samurai Jack

Quote:

That's what I suspected. Maybe the are afraid to get sued if somebody hurts themselves on the screwdriver....
How many Sony technicians does it take to screw in a ChromaView...


----------



## palarsen

I am really looking forward to some pictures of this setup. Ideally under different light conditions.

It will be very interesting to see how the screen works with other projectors. If it works with DLP light cannons like IF 72xx then it would probably cure the problems they have with black levels (no filters needed) and the result would be like a giant plasma but at a much lower price.


----------



## noah katz

" If it works with DLP light cannons like IF 72xx then it would probably cure the problems they have with black levels "


'fraid not, the best a screen can do is preserve all of the pj's CR.


----------



## INeedABreak

Quote:

_Originally posted by Samurai Jack_
*How many Sony technicians does it take to screw in a ChromaView...*
Four! One licensed contractor for each corner screw!


----------



## PerfKnee

Has there been a spectral response chart published for this screen? I assume it has a response with three peaks around the R/G/B centers. I have long wondered why other screens didn't do that. In addition to the rejection of ambient light, it should make the color more pure. Of course it could very well introduce a color cast if used with a projector that has a different spectral response than the Sony.


I notice on the sonystyle site they say it is for use with UHP projectors. I assume it's tuned for the spectrum of those bulbs, but I would assume they would have varying spectrums for different UHP projectors. I wonder about using it with a Xenon projector like my JVC DILA G1000.


What would be amazing would be to use this type of screen with a laser projector. The screen could be made with very narrow spectral response peaks, and so could reject almost all ambient light.


----------



## JimP

PerfKnee


They'll probably tell you that it won't work. But I'd be tempted to find someone who has one on display and take my projector over to try out.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerfKnee_
*Has there been a spectral response chart published for this screen? I assume it has a response with three peaks around the R/G/B centers. I have long wondered why other screens didn't do that. In addition to the rejection of ambient light, it should make the color more pure.*
There are some cases where this could be an advantage, but in general the projector designers could already make the colors more pure by the filters they choose to use. There are at least a couple of issues though. One is that it can reduce light output, but the bigger one is that the standards don't actually call for pure colors. They call for specific spots on the CIE chart (and different spots for SD than HD) for each primary. Pure red would be way too red, for instance. I wonder how this Sony screen effects where the primaries fall on that chart. I think it would be mostly an issue for lights off viewing, given the fact that watching with lights on or coming in is likely to skew the colors anyway. Especially if bulbs are being used in the room that skew way toward red, as I believe regular house bulbs do.
Quote:

_Originally posted by PerfKnee_
*I wonder about using it with a Xenon projector like my JVC DILA G1000.
*
When I first saw this screen when they demoed it at SID a while back and weren't sure if they would produce it, I asked them about the bulb issue. The guy told me that this one was for UHP and wouldn't work with Xenon. It is possible that they could make a version for Xenon, but the problem there is that I believe the peaks are smaller and the colors more spread out with Xenon bulbs on the spectral chart. So, making narrow bands is much more difficult or impossible without blocking a lot of the projected light and the resulting ratio between projected light that is reflected and ambient light that is reflected wouldn't be as high.


--Darin


----------



## Wildcat05

I've been thinking about puchasing this screen, as it's just the perfect size for my setup, does anyone know positively if it will work for DLP projectors. I have an Optoma H31, and it has a p-vip lamp not a uhp lamp?


----------



## PerfKnee

Darinp2, your reply about the projector only being suitable for UHP bulbs made me search for a spectrum chart. The best I could find was this:

http://www.icpig.uni-greifswald.de/p...ata/Pekarski_1 


look at the spectrum in the lower left corner of the first page. It looks like there is basically a single fairly narrow peak for each primary in the UHP spectrum, which is as you mention ideal for what the Chromavue does. The Chromavue screen can thereby filter out everything in between those peaks and still not lose then concentrated energy in the peaks.


The xenon spectrum can be seen in the 4th page of this document:

http://www.etcenter.org/extranet_fil...e-NAB_2005.pdf 


and you can see that doing such filtering would reduce much more of the light output. So the contrast would end up lower with xenon. I can see that the screen technology is much better suited to UHP bulbs. It could probably be used with xenon, but doing so would likely reduce the gain significantly and lower overall contrast, but might still be better than gray screens.


----------



## mark_1080p

Quote:

_Originally posted by noah katz_
*" If it works with DLP light cannons like IF 72xx then it would probably cure the problems they have with black levels "


'fraid not, the best a screen can do is preserve all of the pj's CR.*
Noah, its an interesting point, but I wonder if there could be some effect with a unique screen such as this. For example, if the scattered light in the PJ is not the same spectrally as the projected image, due perhaps to the nature of the scattering surfaces, this screen could potentially improve CR.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerfKnee_
*Darinp2, your reply about the projector only being suitable for UHP bulbs made me search for a spectrum chart. The best I could find was this:
*
Here is one I took with ColorFacts earlier tonight from a Panasonic 7000U 3 chip DLP that I believe has a UHP bulb (actually 2, but I only had one on).


--Darin


----------



## CINERAMAX

Those bulbs are obviously not filtered. Do you see what I meant by greenvision?


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by CINERAMAX_
*Those bulbs are obviously not filtered. Do you see what I meant by greenvision?*
Nope. I was specifically thinking of your comment and why you would think that as I measured this and looked at it. With only about 10 percent difference with a bulb like this it tells me that they pretty much have to be filtering to get closer balance. Otherwise I would expect a much bigger difference (much lower red). And if all a person has to do is adjust the bias and contrast for the colors a little bit to get balance, why would they disqualify a projector for this? I haven't adjusted things yet, but will. And I don't think the "greenvision" will be accurate.


EDIT: I wasn't paying attention to what thread I was in and thought that you had seen my measurements here where out of the box with mostly just brightness and contrast adjusted I got:
Quote:

_Originally posted by darinp2_
*something like 93% for red, 103% for green and 97% for blue. When I cranked the contrast to get the maxes I believe it was more like 97% for red, close to 100% for green and 108% for blue.*
As far as filtering, this is a 3 chip projector and you can't build one of those without filtering the colors (since each chip is doing one). So, by "filtering" I meant extra filtering to get balanced colors and not the filtering that is required to even build a machine like this (whether Xenon or UHP).


What do you think the curve would have looked like with Xenon? Pretty much just lower peaks.


--Darin


----------



## CINERAMAX

Darin if you cut off the peaks atop the red hill across the green and blue you would have achieved a reasonable response, that is wht the new uhp filtering technology will do. But at a duration cost.


----------



## BayAreaFan

Has some one tried to contact the OEM source for this screen? It looks like a killer system if they can increase the size to 100" and bring the price down to $1K


----------



## rogo

Sony is the OEM for the screen.


----------



## MTyson

If anyone is interested this screen has been going for $1399 on Ebay.


Will this screen work with a CRT projector?


----------



## melechmet

Quote:

_Originally posted by rogo_
*Sony is the OEM for the screen.*
This is probable but not certain AFAIK.


----------



## rogo

I'm actually certain. It was developed in house by Sony. I spoke personally with the engineers who developed it.


----------



## BayAreaFan

Quote:

_Originally posted by rogo_
*I'm actually certain. It was developed in house by Sony. I spoke personally with the engineers who developed it.*
I remember seeing a link about a Japanese manufacturer who developed the underlying technology. Sony may have licensed it and then productized it. I do not think they developed the underlying technology itself.


----------



## CINERAMAX

In any event there will be a bigger better screen by another manufacturer shown at Infocomm.


----------



## CINERAMAX

In any event there will be a bigger better screen by another manufacturer shown at Infocomm.


----------



## mbaxter

Quote:

_Originally posted by MTyson_
*If anyone is interested this screen has been going for $1399 on Ebay.*
Which could indicate that people are buying this screen and then not wanting to keep it. Not encouraging.


----------



## catapult

The auction says it's brand new factory sealed.


----------



## melechmet

Quote:

_Originally posted by rogo_
*I'm actually certain. It was developed in house by Sony. I spoke personally with the engineers who developed it.*
Mark,


I wasn't commenting on the R&D aspect, just the *OEM* part. As you know, these things are not one and the same. Having said that, you're probably right in the OEM part as well; but I'm not certain, also having spoken w/ Sony under legal terms, that they didn't farm the manufacture over to some other, associated, manufacturing house.


----------



## MTyson

Quote:

_Originally posted by mbaxter_
*Which could indicate that people are buying this screen and then not wanting to keep it. Not encouraging.*
Actually, I've only seen a few high volume power sellers selling brand new sealed ones. One guy had about 6 of them up for sale.


No bidders on either of the auctions though. It doesn't seem many are even trying this screen out at all. The reviews of it with just room light alone (no sunlight) have been pretty good.


If buyers are returning them I bet it's due to disappoint in viewing with sunlight. No screen can compete with the sun. I'm betting it will be ok with a little sunlight and great without sunlight (but with just ambient light) as one of the reviewers earlier mentioned it was.


So, does anyone know if this screen will work with a CRT projector? It does reflect only red, green and blue light right (which my CRT has)?


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

_Originally posted by MTyson_
*So, does anyone know if this screen will work with a CRT projector? It does reflect only red, green and blue light right (which my CRT has)?*
I think the answer is most likely, "No". It isn't as simple as just reflecting red, green, and blue as the spectrum of wavelengths is continuous and colors blend without a sharp cutoff of which is which. The screen has to deal in narrow bands and can't just light all the light for red, green, and blue through, or it wouldn't work very well against light, since it would be reflecting much of the room light also. SMPTE red includes some yellow for instance. In having narrow bands I think it has to block a reasonable amount of the projected light, which is not a good thing with CRTs that don't have a lot of extra light to spare in general. I believe that CRTs have fairly low peaks (wide bands) like Xenon bulbs, unlike UHP bulbs that have strong peaks for blue and green and so can reflect a fair amount of those colors with just a narrow band (not the whole band that goes with green for instance) being allowed to reflect. So, I don't think this technique will work well with CRTs or Xenon bulbs.


--Darin


----------



## rogo

Quote:

_Originally posted by melechmet_
*Mark,


I wasn't commenting on the R&D aspect, just the OEM part. As you know, these things are not one and the same. Having said that, you're probably right in the OEM part as well; but I'm not certain, also having spoken w/ Sony under legal terms, that they didn't farm the manufacture over to some other, associated, manufacturing house.*
Fair enough.


----------



## vaylen

Quote:

Originally Posted by *mbaxter*
Which could indicate that people are buying this screen and then not wanting to keep it. Not encouraging.
Not really. Sony employees can buy this screen for $1100, so this guy is just trying to make a buck. The screen could quite possibly kick all ass.


----------



## Fairear

I don't know if some of you were following the other thread on the alternative black screens but DNP is coming out with a "Super Nova" screen that will be available in several dimensions including 16 X 9s up to a 120" (check it out at www.dnp.dk The issue about the Sony screen and the value may be looking a whole lot better as a rep from the company emailed me with a MSRP of $3,399 for a 100" 16 X 9 screen Super Nova screen (available some time in September.) A 25% greater diagonal for a 70% price increase...Chroma Vue is looking a lot better. Now if I can just see it displayed somewhere in the NYC area.


----------



## noah katz

"A 25% greater diagonal for a 70% price increase...Chroma Vue is looking a lot better."


Perhaps you didn't see all of the prices:


84" (16:9 or 4:3) US$ 1,899,-

100" (16:9 or 4:3) US$ 3,399,-

120" (16:9) US$ 4,169,-


It is wacky that the 100" is the worst value.


----------



## MTyson

Wow! I just watched the video of the SuperNova screen in action during BROAD daylight. Amazing stuff. If it can produce decent results in broad daylight it must look incredible with the lights off. I wish they would have showed an inside demo too..


----------



## rogo

Hmm... friend at Sony can buy me screen for $1100, eh?


But how much can I squeeze Jason for the DNP 84-inch?


Hmmmm....


----------



## melechmet

Quote:

Originally Posted by *MTyson*
Wow! I just watched the video of the SuperNova screen in action during BROAD daylight. Amazing stuff. If it can produce decent results in broad daylight it must look incredible with the lights off. I wish they would have showed an inside demo too..


Caveat Emptor!


From the horse's mouth at Infocomm, the DNP definition of "daylight": a completely cloudy day, in Denmark. 


Having said that, it looked pretty nice for a 2.0 gain screen, better than the Sony IMO- even w/ the RP reminiscent viewing cone* and the hotspoting [possibly due to the 3 direct halogen lamps beaming from above, beyond the projector output (a big digital Barco unit about 14' away) and the ambient, mostly florescent, light from all directions]. I blew it on my pictures (camera crapped out), but others probably noticed the same issues and, probably were just as impressed.


*sans that new stuff that 3M has developed, and was showing at the show. I hope to see in FP eventually as well.


oh.... Sony's Chromaview was a no show at Infocomm, a fact not lost on the DNP guys. It kinda sucked not being able to compare them though. I think DNP should have rolled out some firehawk and Sony material for a more comprehensive demo. Samples are not available.


We need a shootout.


----------



## ReferenceSeries

I saw the Sony at Fry's in Oregon at was completely unimpressed. Aesthetically, it was subpar. The frame looked like a thin piece of cheap plastic. The room was isolated with some lights on and relatively dim, but the screen looked washed out. In my opinion, the FireHawk would have performed better in the same environment (it would have been interesting to see a side by side). Definitely claims to be more than it is.


----------



## b.greenway

So then how would you rate a picture like this?

http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/bett...een-016964.php 


Somewhat accurate or totally implausible? Possibly taken under really favorable conditions?


----------



## melechmet

Quote:

Originally Posted by *b.greenway*
So then how would you rate a picture like this?

http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/bett...een-016964.php 


Somewhat accurate or totally implausible? Possibly taken under really favorable conditions?
my 2c:


It's quite plausible- I eyeballed this product myself a number of times, just don't forget two things:


1. Sony, and I presume any manufacturer, will attempt to create as much "contrast" as possible between them & the competition. For instance, I would not be terribly surprised, if at all , if Sony used a lower gain screen to compare the Chromaview with. I think the demos would have looked a bit different if they used a silver or grey screen or a high power screen. Now there are arguments about the use of gain and it's effect on contrast, but the bottomline is, the difference looks like night and day.  Sony optimized the experience- and your milage may vary greatly in your HT room.


2. Beyond the control or interest of most, and to the credit of DNP, companies like Sony do not go out of their way to diversify (frequency) and/or amplify the ambient light to make their products look worse! DNP shot 3 Halogen lamps, I think, on their product demo at Infocomm, beyond the ambient light and the xenon lamp of a projector. Sony depended on the relatively dispersed and tight frequency florescent light which is ubiquitous in show rooms (i.e., the SID show where I saw it), and used a tighter frequency and lower lumen lamp of the HS51 (again I think that was the case, I asked at the time and was told they are not demonstrating with the Qualia). So, again, they took advantage of the showroom environment, which is a far cry from most condo living rooms that are the market for an 80" screen.


----------



## EAS

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Ahhhhrrrrgggg*
That is a really good question and a point I meant to make. When it was originally positioned down low the image seemed to be brighter at the bottom and more washed out/grayer at the top. That problem was compounded with sitting on the couch. Once I put the projector on the shelf that problem was completely fixed. The picture is consistent on the whole screen.


As far as viewing angle is concerned it has no negative effect. It looks just as good looking at it from the kitchen as it does directly in the middle of the couch. Wow I want to go home and play Halo right now. Too much talking about it...








I'm not sure if this has been mentioned as I didn't read the entire thread, but the installation directions for this screen give a specific formula for determining the project/screen location. See the attachment. Due to the nature of this screen I would assume that this is very important...much more than a normal screen.


I am considering the same setup as you, however I have some direct sunlight in location where I want to install the screen during the winter months if I don't cover the windows and I'm reading this can damage the screen (give it a sunburn). It's a simple thing to cover the windows, but I wonder how easy it is to damage the screen with UV light.


----------



## kgturner

Quote:

Originally Posted by *EAS*
I'm reading this can damage the screen (give it a sunburn). It's a simple thing to cover the windows, but I wonder how easy it is to damage the screen with UV light.
now that seems counter intuitive to release a screen that rejects light, but you have to cover up all your windows or else the light will damage your screen?? if that's the case, why not just get a "normal" screen?


kevin t


----------



## EAS

The problem is UV light specifically. The filter material is likely a form of plasic film and not glass so it might be damaged by long term exposure. Many things are damaged by UV. Your leather couch, wood floors, fabrics, artwork etc etc you just don't notice it right away.


Now, there is a big difference between "covering" your windows and "blocking light". All I need to do is block UV so I can still have sheers or non-darkening cellular shades etc and keep the normal look. Right now I have a bank of windows with no coverings/shades for aesthetic reasons.

Quote:

...why not just get a "normal" screen?
...well because it may be better in a situation where you have light...like 99% of normal households where you share your theater space with other activities. I've gone from the ideal situation (CRT with blacked out room) to one that is more common and I'm looking for a good balance....and the screen looks cool.


----------



## noah katz

A room with total light control but non-black walls will still benefit from a black screen because it will reduce washout from scattered light finding its way back to the screen.


----------



## darinp2

Quote:

Originally Posted by *noah katz*
A room with total light control but non-black walls will still benefit from a black screen because it will reduce washout from scattered light finding its way back to the screen.
That depends on the screen. I don't believe the Sony will help here any more than its directional layer because the light bouncing back will be the wavelengths that the Sony reflects most. The SuperNova looks like a different story.


--Darin


----------



## noah katz

Good point.


As you may have pointed out once before, you might still be able to "beat the system" if you can find paint that reflects mostly what the Sony screen absorbs.


----------



## FlyingGimp

I'd love someone who's seen or has this screen (or the Supernova) compare or measure it in a white vs. black room. This is the perfect way to get the WAF up - either a black room or a black screen.


----------



## rogo

UV can be blocked by window films that are otherwise transparent.


And Low E glass -- in many new windows -- also blocks nearly all UV.


----------



## JimP

Rogo,


Doesn't most ordinary window glass block UV light?


----------



## Kevin_Wadsworth

Quote:

Originally Posted by *JimP*
Rogo,


Doesn't most ordinary window glass block UV light?
Ordinary glass blocks all UV-B and UV-C wavelengths and _most_ UV-A wavelengths. Some UV-A still gets through, though. It's not enough to give you a suntan, but given enough time it will case things like drapes and woodwork to fade.


----------



## thebland

Is the Sony screen available for purchase?


----------



## b.greenway

Has been for some time as far as I know.


----------



## dc_pilgrim

Quote:

Originally Posted by *thebland*
Is the Sony screen available for purchase?


They have it at Sonystyle.com for MSRP (2k).


There are a couple of autions at e-bay for a 30% discount, plus shipping.


I think Fry's and a small handful of others carry it, also.



Edit - I am not sure it would work well with a Qualia (which I think you have), as its properties are not recomended for xenon bulbs, but rather UHP bulbs . . . I might be getting the terminology mixed up. I thought I remembered that you had the Qualia.


----------



## rogo

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Kevin_Wadsworth*
Ordinary glass blocks all UV-B and UV-C wavelengths and _most_ UV-A wavelengths. Some UV-A still gets through, though. It's not enough to give you a suntan, but given enough time it will case things like drapes and woodwork to fade.
Yes, but with Low E glass, even the UV-A is heavily attenuated.


----------



## thebland

Quote:

Originally Posted by *dc_pilgrim*
They have it at Sonystyle.com for MSRP (2k).


There are a couple of autions at e-bay for a 30% discount, plus shipping.


I think Fry's and a small handful of others carry it, also.



Edit - I am not sure it would work well with a Qualia (which I think you have), as its properties are not recomended for xenon bulbs, but rather UHP bulbs . . . I might be getting the terminology mixed up. I thought I remembered that you had the Qualia.
Good memeory. I do have a Qaulia but this is for a friend that has a large room and projector with many, many windows...I assume this is the answer for daytime viewing? He has an Optoma DLP.


I only saw the 80" version at Sonystyle.com, are the other sizes available?


----------



## rogo

There is no other size from Sony.


----------



## noah katz

Jeff,


dnp's upcoming SuperNova is similar to the Sony, i.e., "black", but is not color-sensitive.


There will be 84, 100, and 120" versions, rigid at first w/rollup later.


----------



## dc_pilgrim

Quote:

He has an Optoma DLP.
Looks like those use UHP bulbs (based on my unscientific glancing at their website), so the Sony black could work. Noah covered the upcoming DNP products. There is also a rumor floating that Stewart will have a black screen coming out, though details are few. If you friend can wait till CEDIA, I am guessing more will be known. If not, we'll expect proper reviews if they get the Sony or the DNP.


----------



## Minke

Quote:

Originally Posted by *dc_pilgrim*
If you friend can wait till CEDIA, I am guessing more will be known. If not, we'll expect proper reviews if they get the Sony or the DNP.
I recall someone mentioning that the DNP product will be available for sale in September, which I believe is the same month that CEDIA takes place in, so if they're willing to wait for the DNP product, they may as well wait to see what CEDIA has to offer.


----------



## Assayer

I just had an opportunity to see the Sony Chromavue screen in action at the Frys store in Indianapolis.


It was paired with a Mitsubishi HC900U (a 7-segment 576p DLP). Who knows how much if any calibration it had seen or how many hours were on the bulb. They were running Star Wars ep 2. Because of the throw distance of the setup, they were overscanning 25% on the sides onto the wall. They also had two other projectors simultaneously shooting onto a white wall in the same room. The lights in the room were off most of the time, but a fair amount of light was coming in from the doorway.


The bottom line is that the side-by-side comparison pictures we have all seen referenced in this thread are representative of real-life performance. I did not see any evidence of hotspotting (a pleasant surprise) and the colors looked fairly good. I suppose a well-trained eye might have found some minor red-orange color shift, but I did not notice it at all until I turned up the lights quite a bit, and I doubt it would bother many AVSers.


I didn't really scrutinize the viewing cone behavior, but it seemed to be a sufficiently gentle rolloff that it was not an especially jarring change. It was still quite viewable even far off-axis, more-so than I would have anticipated from an advertised 1.7 gain screen.


I was very impressed and would probably order one today if Sony offered it in a bigger size such as 90-92" for around the 2K MSRP of the 80" version. As it is, I'll be waiting to see what competition DNP and possibly Stewart bring to the table at CEDIA while I save my pennies.


In summary, the Chromavue can look good with DLPs too, not just the HS51.


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## Kevin_Wadsworth

Thanks for the report, Aasayer!


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## JimP

Not to deminish this screens performance in a light controlled room, I'd like to hear more about how this screen performs in a normally lit room.


Isn't that the whole point of this screen?


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## McGuireV10

Wow, almost daily postings for 10 months. If Sony comes through (doesn't anybody from Sony read this, what appears to be one of the largest HT forums?) they ought to make a killing with this thing. I find it interesting that the earliest Sony Hi-Contrast Screen posts stated it would be available in April. Then June. Then "Summer". Now CEDIA or September...


Just as long as it's ready by about March 06 when my new house is done, I'll be happy...


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## Assayer

It's available for sale now. They have been shipping them for months. At this point, the questions are whether Sony scales up to handle larger sizes any time soon, and what rival products their competitors bring to the market to compete.


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## McGuireV10

Doh! I missed that (obviously).


So nobody here actually has one, then?


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## Minke

There was one poster who actually had one. I recall that he liked it, but was a relative projector neophyte (meaning simply that he didn't have the expertise to do an exhaustive compartive analysis of this screen's capabilities as opposed to other non-black screens).


I think most people who monitor this thread are interested, but are waiting for someone to provide a larger unit than 80" diagonal. Since there are things in the wings (hopefully with much more info around CEDIA time), we sit and we wait.


If an 80" screen fits your needs, though, apparently there are new-in-box Sony screens available on ebay for around $1400. Do a search on "Sony W80 Screen".


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## tdiciple

OK, 14 pages, and only 1 user who actually already bought this item.


Well, ^_^, let me add another user then, me; along with my comments and review.


I had this screen in my living room for about 4 weeks now. Bought my AE-700 3 months ago, and was using my white wall for my pj before I had this screen.


I am using my projector in my living room, with three large windows (blinds always close), and was unable to watch anything on my pj before this screen until the sun is almost out or out completely.


I had PT-50LC13 Panasonic LCD projection running on 720p, and also have DVE & AVIA for my display calibration.


Category:

*Calibration

>> Projector have to be recalibrated- as this screen will make the pictures looks a bit darker than a normal white screen would.


*Under ambient light condition.

>> It meet it purpose, defeat about 80-95% of ambient light. However, the more ambient light coming in, the worser the pictures gonna look. So in my case, I can watch it all-right now in most condition, but not if I opened up all my window blinds.


* Pictures Quality under ambient light.

>> As long as you do not have really bad ambient light, then you should be able to see the pictures about 85-95% it's normal black condition. It made the pictures a little darker than it normally would in another screen with black out condition.


* Pictures Quality under totally black out condition.

>> Good, very comparable with normal screen.


* Viewing Cone

>> No viewing cone before this screen. With this screen, viewing cone is rather limited. The farther you are away from the axis, pictures will look more washed out.


The bad thing about this screen though, like everybody keep saying over and over again, is that it is only 80".


The good thing about this screen, you can watch movies or tv with your projector under normal ambient light condition.


Sorry, I have no screen shot of the screen.


I hope you guys enjoy the review.


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## Minke

Thank you for the review! It sounds like you're saying this screen allows you to put a projector in a room that would otherwise be too brightly lit to have one, which I guess is the job it set out to do. It also sounds like your room is a good test, since it sounds like there's no way for you to make it very dark. Would you say that you find the picture quality to be good during the day, or just acceptable? Would you still put off watching something until after dark because the picture quality is significantly better then?


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## Kevin L.

Is there anyway you could get some pictures posted? I'm sure there are alot of people waiting to buy this screen but just want to see it in action. Did you replace your panny plasma for new setup and are you happy with that? Sorry for so many ? but I just got to know. thanks for review.


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## McGuireV10

Very interesting. Thanks for the reviews.

Like everybody else, I need more than 80" so I guess I'm on the waiting list, too.


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## dc_pilgrim

tdiciple - Thanks for the review. The under black conditions, and viewing cone are the two things I was most curious about. My thought process is tied to occasional ambient viewing situations (sports, etc). I am not building till 2006, so I am guessing the size problem will be cured at that point.


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## MississippiMan

Having no small degree of interest in such things, I was able to track down two separate viewings while working in the Hampton Roads, VA area this last weekend, and under commonly expected conditions, they plainly showed an image at both locations that was a very good one, (HS-51 in one Location, a Panny 700 at another)


But read on.....,


The first viewing was in a storefront/office setting, and while the image looked very good directly in front of the screen, things didn't look all that as impressive from off axis. My unqualified estimate was that from 120 degrees, and in ambient light consisting of overhead Florecsents, and with open display windows letting in unrestricted daylight approx 30' in front of the screen itself, the 'off the screen' illumination was down at least 50%. About the same effect as is noticed with many mid-level RPTVs. Even so, in that light, there can be no denying the potential, because directly in front of the screen, it almost "Glowed". (...there's real irony in that statement coming from me...)


In the home installation (w/a well calibrated Panny 700e) and a totally light controlled "living Room" , the image was as good as anybody could hope for from that combo who hasn't been spoiled by viewing a CRT on a StudioTek 130. It would have been interesting to see the HS51's image on the Sony in those conditions. With the Room's area Lamps turned on, there was a noticeable drop in screen brightness, but just barely so. Alas, from the side seating position position of a "L" shaped grouping, the image was more noticably dimmer than it was in the Storefront with the HS51 viewed from the same position, and with a lot more ambient light present. The Owner didn't seem to notice it though, enough to claim dissatisfaction


Both applications were providing excellent images under adverse conditions, but not enough so to warrant the current pricing per size. _*(IMO, ...but that seems to be a general view by the majority.)*_


Since a very many of the "Theater" installations I and my Dealers' perform are in Family Room environments, any application that can deliver results in conditions more favorable to the Estrogen set means more business with less cajoling to get there. So I do have a vested interest in any technology or DIY application that might afford such.


The Sony, without a doubt, comes very close. But it is a hard morsel to choke down that 80" is all that can be provided. I reason that larger sizes would do well, but only if paired with higher Lumen Pjs. What I would also like to see is a PJ like the JVC HX2U on the Sony...something good enough to ascertain if any detail is getting lost. I mention this last because there is a definite "darkening" of the perceived contrast of the image by the Sony. Hitting the Sony with a PJ that has such excellent resolution and color rendition, and 500 true rated lumens, but has a CR of only 1500:1 would either tell the tale that high CR is essential for the Sony's performance, or that the application itself lends a CR based enhancement BESIDES working to correct ambient light issues.


Perhaps the upcoming competition will alleviate those concerns, and provide a more multi-platform screen that will work well with any decent PJ. I'm sure, (but without having seen more than the two recent examples), that any decent PJ with up to/over 1100 Mfg stated lumens would get a good image on the Sony. Lets all hope the envelope can be stretched.


BTW DC_Pilgrim, in total darkness, the viewing cone performance was much improved, if that makes a difference.


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## tdiciple

>>Minke,


Yes, exactly, I am saying this screen allows you to put a projector in a room that would otherwise be too brightly lit to have one. (However, you cannot put this screen if you have too bright of a room.) Like I said, it works great if I closed all the three big windows blind of my room, however, if I opened up all three, I cannot watch anything. Two blind close and 1 open is acceptable.


Picture quality is about quite good during the day. I would say that it is more than acceptable, but not excellent. I wouldn't watch my most favorite or new exciting DVD during the day, but would watch regular DVD & TV during the day.


For me, it is quite a life saver, as I COULD NOT watch anything in a good manner durign day time before this screen.


BTW, you might want to save one of the memory settings in your projector for daylight viewing, as it requires a bit contrast, brightness and POSSIBLY gamma adjustment. I have Panny AE700, Memory 1 is for night, memory 2 is for daytime, memory 3 is just for playing arround.



>>Kevin L.


I'll see if I can set up a couple of pictures. MY LCD Projection TV (PT-50LC13) have find it's place in my bedroom.


I am extremely happy with this set up. With summer, I could not watch anything appropiately until 8-9pm without this screen.


>>McGuire


If there is 92"or even higher size available . I will sold this screen in a heartbeat, and get the bigger one. Provided selling price is not too low, and 92" is not too expensive.


ALL, Installation is a snap, very easy, not at all requiring some professional, all you need is Power Tool (to screw the 4 screw at 4 corners in), that is it.


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## tdiciple

BTW, As MissisipiMan said,


Under total darkness, the viewing cone is MUCH improved. Almost the same as having to watch the projected image on a normal screen or wall.


Brightness and contrast is also well under total black, which is why I said, you need two memory settings for your pj so can switch between daylight and night.


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## McGuireV10

tdiciple, Just curious since you mentioned installation, what is the look and feel of the screen material up close? Just the material, not an image.


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## tdiciple

Screen consist of frame and and back panel support, and the screen itself.


back panel support is like 1/4" of wood panel. The screen is about 1/16-1/32 thick of flat panel. The color of the screen is matte grey.


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## PerryH

I ran across this today...


US Patent No. 6,853,486 assigned to Hewlett Packard for a projection screen for enhancing the contrast of a projected image.


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## huntah2k

walmart..hah


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## keyser

 http://www.guidetohometheater.com/ac...705sonyscreen/ 


A nice review on the Sony screen.


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## boykster

Sorry to revive this =D


I was at Fry's in Renton WA this afternoon and they had the blackscreen setup with an HS51. The room wasn't fully lit, but there was alot of ambient light and it looked pretty good. There was definately a pretty tight cone, and off axis vertically the brightness dropped of pretty severely (like an old RPTV).


I have to admit that it was pretty intriguing, but for $2k, its tough to choose this over a $200 Graywolf.


Rich


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## Erikb

Has anyone done a bake-off between the Sony and the other screens designed for ambient light (e.g. DNP Supernova)?


What are the pros and cons of each?


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## Assayer

Here is a first crack at it-

*Sony Blackscreen*

Pros: reasonably good performance in limited ambient light

Cons: only available in 80" diagonal, some noticable color shift, not as effective with sunlight due to frequency range.

*DNP screen*

Pros: available in larger sizes, very good rejection for overhead lighting

Cons: rejection from sides is considerably reduced, prone to hotspotting, larger sizes are expensive, not yet shipping, projector placement restrictions.

*Graywolf*

Pros: Cheap, rejects light evenly from sides as well as ceiling and floor, no hotspotting

Cons: Has a sparkly texture, quality control on the early ones was very mixed, prone to shipping damage. Available in pull down form only

*Firehawk*

Pros: Easy to find a dealer to demo one, established history, rejects ceiling and sides equally. Supposedly the cons have been reduced in the latest revision.

Cons: Some limited hotspotting, slight color shift, imparts a unique look that is difficult to describe; some like it some don't.

*(Mythical) High power with a gray base*

Pros: similar to Graywolf but smooth with no sparkle texture

Cons: People have been asking for it for years, but it doesn't exist.


There seems to be a consensus around here that the gain numbers on all of these screens may be a little inflated. I've never measured them, so I can't really speak authoritatively, but that is my what my eyes suggest as well. With light coming in from the same direction as the projector, all of these will suffer. The bottom line is that there is no perfect light rejecting screen, but some are better in certain viewing environments than others.


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## jlcool007

Quote:

Originally Posted by *CINERAMAX*
Those bulbs are obviously not filtered. Do you see what I meant by greenvision?


VERY loopy spectrum indeed


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## mndfreeze

So what eactly is the range on price for the sony blackscreen and how does it compare to other screens? I'm looking into a projector but would pretty much have to get a screen like this to watch during the day.


I dont want to waste my time if its going to cost me 2k for the screen alone.


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## MississippiMan

Quote:

Originally Posted by *mndfreeze*
So what eactly is the range on price for the sony blackscreen and how does it compare to other screens? I'm looking into a projector but would pretty much have to get a screen like this to watch during the day.


I dont want to waste my time if its going to cost me 2k for the screen alone.
The Sony can be found discounted as low as $1500-$1600 in a few locals primarily because it really isn't selling well. Poor image quality for the price. Overstated performance attributes. Too small.


You can do better for much less. Go to
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...24#post6584324 


...or go to.....,
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=598670 



.....and read how you can "go Black" for well under $300.00


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